Talk:Nazism in relation to other concepts

message: ===Un-Constitutionality of 1931 Decrees, from Arthur Rosenburg,1936 ( 1931 Death of Weimar)===
Matbe you had not sen this , but I thought  it was provided with your knowledge there on Reichstg Fire Decree discussion. I think this justifies the Article clarification until you can source to the contrary,Str1977. Please do, but please do so before removing or reverting. 
::However the decrees issuing under Bruning are focused upon by  Weimar historian Arthur Rosenburg who states that :
:On October 18, 1930, the majority in the Reichstag composed of Bruning's supporters and the Social Democrats resolved to refer the question of the[misuse as clear from previous pages] question of the emergency decrees to a special commission of the Reichstag and to pass to the order of the day without discussing the proposed vote of no confidence that lay upon the table. The Reichstag thus abandoned the struggle with the un-constitutional dictatorship of Bruning and his friends by majority vote . The same hour saw the death of the Weimar Republic. Since then one dictatorship has succeeded to another in Germany.
::fair-use/educational from  p 306 in Arthur Rosenburg(ex Berlin University Professor of History)'s A History of the Weimar Republic,1936, Methuen & Co.[Highlight EffK]
::This returns us to the continuous un-constitutionality of Hindenburg's use of Decree 48, to which I shall add Rosenberg's completer analysis ,as the implication to WP and other history is considerable.
EffK 23:11, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Source Basis Un-constitutionality

message: Matbe you had not sen this , but I thought  it was provided with your knowledge there on Reichstg Fire Decree discussion. I think this justifies the Article clarification until you can source to the contrary,Str1977. Please do, but please do so before removing or reverting. 
::However the decrees issuing under Bruning are focused upon by  Weimar historian Arthur Rosenburg who states that :
:On October 18, 1930, the majority in the Reichstag composed of Bruning's supporters and the Social Democrats resolved to refer the question of the[misuse as clear from previous pages] question of the emergency decrees to a special commission of the Reichstag and to pass to the order of the day without discussing the proposed vote of no confidence that lay upon the table. The Reichstag thus abandoned the struggle with the un-constitutional dictatorship of Bruning and his friends by majority vote . The same hour saw the death of the Weimar Republic. Since then one dictatorship has succeeded to another in Germany.
::fair-use/educational from  p 306 in Arthur Rosenburg(ex Berlin University Professor of History)'s A History of the Weimar Republic,1936, Methuen & Co.[Highlight EffK]
::This returns us to the continuous un-constitutionality of Hindenburg's use of Decree 48, to which I shall add Rosenberg's completer analysis ,as the implication to WP and other history is considerable.
EffK 23:11, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Un-Constitutionality of 1931 Decrees, from Arthur Rosenburg,1936 ( 1931 Death of Weimar)

message: Has Hitler been anti-marxian? He himself was convinced to be. But ... Hitler was not that intelligent to know exactly about these things ... Let us see, what Marx wrote. Unfortunately, there are some similarities between the thoughts of Hitler and the thoughts of Marx. These sentences find their correspondance in Hitler's book "Mein Kampf". (If he just took over Marx's ideas?)
*Source: On the Jewish Question by Karl Marx
*"Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist."
*"The god of the Jews has become secularized and has become the god of the world. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange."
*"Judaism reaches its highest point with the perfection of civil society,"
*"Only then could Judaism achieve universal dominance and make alienated man and alienated nature into alienable, vendible objects subjected to the slavery of egoistic need and to trading."
*"Since in civil society the real nature of the Jew has been universally realized and secularized, civil society could not convince the Jew of the unreality of his religious nature, which is indeed only the ideal aspect of practical need."
*"Once society has succeeded in abolishing the empirical essence of Judaism – huckstering and its preconditions – the Jew will have become impossible, because his consciousness no longer has an object, because the subjective basis of Judaism, practical need, has been humanized, nd because the conflict between man’s individual-sensuous existence and his species-existence has been abolished. The social emancipation of the Jew is the emancipation of society from Judaism."
--84.176.183.74 14:25, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karl Marx's anti-semitism corresponds to anti-capitalism 

message: I put suggestion for the way to generally proceed, at discussion  for the Vatican Bank: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Vatican_Bank#WP__Article_resolution_templateEffK 01:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: DIG THISEffK 01:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ISBN RULESEffK 01:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

text: ISBN IS SORTED PRO/CONEffK 01:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

text: CON AS IMPORTANT AS PROEffK 01:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

text: WP IS FULL OF DISTRUSTABLE ERROR
I tell you I have every logical reason to distrust, so I refer you to the a.r.t. All of you whatever your politics or religion of source or sense- as I there express that inclusivity which should be the hall-mark of this project. I personally would add that the  RC Church was a factor in AH's and the NSDAP's success, where it is absent still. I would allow for reference to denials, but I distrust the absence  of it altogether from,for example, the Nazi article. If we can't include known history , how can we move on to fruitful explanatory articles like this one?EffK 01:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I read the sections several times, and I just cannot make sense of it. Apologies to the writer, but it seems incomprehensible.--Cberlet 22:46, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: BE 2RUEEffK 01:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Forgive me, EffK, but I am almost unable to understand your use of the English language. If I get a small portion of the above correctly, you are arguing that all information is valid if sourced. That is a debatable point, but in an encyclopedia, it is simply not true.  The major theories should take precedence in terms of the disucssion, and minor theories mentioned in smaller paragraphs in the body of the text. Very unusual theories with many critics may not deserve a mention.  Original research is not permitted. You are not being censored.--Cberlet 15:55, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A best way to cut the problems ?

message: Let us order these , as I express through that link, and then let us confine ourselves thereafter to proper reflection of those sources ie. paraphrasing . At some point acceptance between articles of justified material might then warrant simple use of 'off-topic'. Treated topics will be incorporated into the whole by internal links , but with a cachet of trust. However without general acceptance of an a.r.t. or article resolution template, we all distrust the next article as much as the present. I for one am not happy,and  however oddly I may express  the un-happiness - I can source its logic inside WP. It hovers very close to off-topic and circles to the distrust borne of hagiography.EffK 01:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ISBN IS SORTED PRO/CONEffK 01:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: reflection and off-topic

message: Let's let the contradiction- cats out of the bag, and put them in the template. Here above - it is Socialism or Conservatism, somewhere else it is the extreme form of socialism, somewhere else it is piety or business or a bank or philosophy. I see no trust because there can be no single- no one  NPOV : NPOV can only be a full report and state all relevant contradictions, otherwise this miraculous single NPOV has to be final and inconsitently edited judge. Right here there are sources both ways with Hitler and socialism, not least the - complete 25 point NSDAP program. At NSDAP there is no inclusion of the program , nor that it was presented at the renaming of the party, by Hitler himself, not that it remained unchanged until 1945. There is no link to National Socialist Program except for a bookshop, and I for one distrust by reason of this absence. It proves my point that off-topic is dangerous. You only arrive at the program from section: Key elements of the Nazi ideology on the Nazism page. Why not its party the NSDAP , ie not from the "nazi" title/word buit yet from another "Nazi" word Article. I distrust inconsistency and limitation and off-topic, as it re-inforces these failures of WP. I experienced this with Concordat/reichskonkordat.EffK 01:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: CON AS IMPORTANT AS PROEffK 01:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: contradiction and NPOV

message: Here for example there is a section entitled Seizure of Power , but at Holocaust [Jews} I bet it still says accession to power. I distrust. I quote the patently un-true following statement- "A further decree enabled for preventative detention of all the Communist deputies, amongst many thousands of others." . I distrust. There is no link , and as far as I know no Decree. There is no WP notice for even the Special Courts Decree of October 1931 upon which the Reichstag Fire Decree was promulgated . I distrust. At Heinrich Bruning, there is no true reflection of the Decrees, as un-constitutional, as I have sourced them to be. Notverordnung appears to translate as need, and bears no relation to Article 48, and Armed Revolt. I distrust. The Fire Decree seems based upon, I source, an un-constitutional Decree. The Nuremberg Trials mention all this- I have not read everything, but in terms of source, there it is, October 1931. I find these failures instill my distrust-especially as I am personally barred from repairing the failures since I remark unfortunate 'cultural' omissions. Absences, errors, reductions, no linkage- it is all a big mess. I distrust, and see more than 'birthing' problems.
::WP IS FULL OF DISTRUSTABLE ERROR
I tell you I have every logical reason to distrust, so I refer you to the a.r.t. All of you whatever your politics or religion of source or sense- as I there express that inclusivity which should be the hall-mark of this project. I personally would add that the  RC Church was a factor in AH's and the NSDAP's success, where it is absent still. I would allow for reference to denials, but I distrust the absence  of it altogether from,for example, the Nazi article. If we can't include known history , how can we move on to fruitful explanatory articles like this one?EffK 01:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: WP inconsistancy

message: The previous several sections are apparently all by EffK, although only one is signed.  He has stated in the past that he is a native speaker of English, and that is my native language as well, but I find nearly all of the above incomprehensible. If someone believes they can understand and paraphrase, it would be appreciated. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:33, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I read the sections several times, and I just cannot make sense of it. Apologies to the writer, but it seems incomprehensible.--Cberlet 22:46, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: BE 2RUEEffK 01:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Forgive me, EffK, but I am almost unable to understand your use of the English language. If I get a small portion of the above correctly, you are arguing that all information is valid if sourced. That is a debatable point, but in an encyclopedia, it is simply not true.  The major theories should take precedence in terms of the disucssion, and minor theories mentioned in smaller paragraphs in the body of the text. Very unusual theories with many critics may not deserve a mention.  Original research is not permitted. You are not being censored.--Cberlet 15:55, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Remark on the above

message: Most of the text on this page would be more useful if it was merged then repackaged.  The sections on Nazism_in_relation_to_other_concepts#Nazism_and_socialism and Nazism_in_relation_to_other_concepts#Nazism_and_conservatism could be merged onto Fascism and ideology, debate and expanded, and then sections that are debated and edited could be spun off from there. --Cberlet 17:07, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's problematic since it identifies Fascism and Nazism. Despite some similarities the two are not the same. Str1977 18:51, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. That's true, but the page Fascism and ideology already has a similar discussion about socialism and centralized control of the economy, and has the advantage of more cites.--Cberlet 23:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess, one could include it there with a disclaimer for the part relating specifically to Nazism (and not to Fascism) and vice versa. Str1977 17:37, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just trying to consolidate some material and avoid duplication.  I am open to ideas here. Check out the relevant text at Fascism and ideology and Neo-Fascism. Help is welcome.--Cberlet 18:27, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is simply no reason to have the same discussion on two pages, and the Austrian School chunk clearly relates to fascism as a whole, and not just Nazism. So I moved it.  Don't wail, just go edit on the other page. I suspect that this whole page should be distributed to other pages, and then perhaps coherent chunks spun off to their own pages. There should be a page just on Nazism and religion that could be pulled from this page and from other pages, and the same with Nazism and race.  The section on this page on conservatism would fit better on Fascism and ideology for now, and then perhaps spin off to an article on Fascism and the Conservative Revolution. We need not lose the distinctions between Italian Fascism and German Nazis, but so much text is duplicating material on other pages, when for the reader, it makes more sense to have the same topics put together on one page.--Cberlet 22:28, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are numerous links (not to mention redirects) pointing to this page. Prominent examples include Nazism and socialism. It seems only logical to me that there should be a Nazi equivalent of the Fascism and ideology page. Perhaps we should call it "Nazism and ideology", but that would be misleading, because race and religion, for example, are not ideologies. Overall, I like the former arrangement, with the Nazism and socialism stuff in this article, though I agree that the POV in favour of the non-notable Austrians needs to be seriously trimmed. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 23:58, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is just not the case. Most links to this page are not active pages. There are only a handful of active text links to this page. Nazism and socialism no longer exists. It redirects here. All we have to do is send it to Fascism and ideology. Almost all of the discussion of Nazism and socialism duplicates the discussion about fascism and socialism, which was already at Fascism and ideology. I am trying to juggle text on several pages to build one coherent discussion, rather than having bits and pieces on several pages. Give it a chance. For most readers it makes more sense to talk about the whole debate on one page.--Cberlet 00:09, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge and repackage?

message: On a website in tribute to the late Stephen Jay Gould, there is a list of quotations from speeches Hitler made, as well as from his book Mein Kampf, that indicating that he thought of himself as a Christian (http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html). Does anyone have any good sources pointing in one or the other direction. I think it would be valuable information to this article. - PJ
Hitler claimed to be Christian. Try "Richard Steigmann–Gall, The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919–1945 (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2003)." It is the most recent and most damning scholarly work that explores Hitler and his relationship to Christianity. Was Hitler telling the truth? Why believe him? It's a trick question.--Cberlet 19:34, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was Hitler Christian? 

message: :I removed the following text from the article. It has been weeks that no attempt was made to conform the contents of this section to its title, "Nazism and conservatism" in the context of "Nazism in relation to other concepts". The text talks about how conservatives and others helped Hitler gain power - this is a valid issue (and hence I hesitated to delete it and have now moved it here), but it isn't what this section is about.(Str1977)
::I highlight parts I consider necessary of re-inclusion into Wikipedia, and add justificatory reason .EffK
:-
Some of the traditional center and right-wing political parties of the Weimar Republic accused the Nazis of being socialists citing planks in the Nazis' party program which called for nationalization of trusts and other social measures. However, the German National People's Party (DNVP), the most important party on the mainstream right, usually treated the Nazis as a respected potential ally.   
    
Historians such as Ian Kershaw note the links between the Nazis and the German political and economic establishment, as well as the significance of the Night of the Long Knives in which Hitler purged much of the left elements (such as the Strasserites and homosexuals) in the Nazi Party. This was done at the insistence of the SS, the German military establishment and conservatives.   
    
===The Final Act===   
The Nazis came to power through an alliance with some traditional conservative factions, though also experienced opposition from others. Franz von Papen, a conservative former German Chancellor and former member of the Catholic Centre Party ,supported Hitler for the position of Chancellor. Political and corporate engineering, immediately prior to the 30 January Hitler presidentially appointed Chancellorship, continued through to the 23 March Enabling Act and gave Hitler dictatorial power. This Act passed with the support of the discredited and corrupt Huguenbergian nationalist German National People's Party (DNVP), a few liberals, and all conservative and centrist deputies in the constutionally-challenged and effectively rigged Reichstag. Such remaining bloc easily defeated the sole opposition of Social Democrats, without the absent and 'dormant', but in fact arrested or murdered Communists. [ Questioning ever-since particularly concerns the crucial condonation of Hitler by the largest remaining other Party, the Catholic Centre Party Germany and due to its dissolution being a subject of bargaining by relationship to the Holy See and its 1933 Reichskonkordat with Germany. [FK. Everything is sourced and this is the true conjunction of interests, not clearly presented in a main Article,the questioning is sourced and is here presented in NPOV .] 
    
===Late 1932===    
Among the conservative forces who opposed Hitler, the most notable was Kurt von Schleicher, the chief Army political general and fixer who held the Chancellorship after von Papen's cabinet of barons, the failed aristocratic attempt at administration. Von Schleicher in late 1932 attempted to construct a "cross front" that would unite anti-Hitler factions on the right and center-left in the Reichstag. His failure to do so allowed Papen's second rise to power inside a Hitler coalition, and it was the failed but still power-hungry Franz von Papen who paved the way for this Decreed January/February Coalition and then for Hitler's March Dictatorship. [FK. Schleicher was being presented as supporting Hitler until I reversed inot this clear presentation of Schleicher, which is insufficiently presented here in any main Article.]   
     
===The Engineering of Hitler's 30 January Appointment===   
     
The maverick ex-Centre party, ex-chancellor von Papen was the chief engineer for Hitlerism and, squared the[ Industrial Magnates ] and business class, squared the Bankers, squared the weapon-hungry Officer class and through his personal influence with President Paul von Hindenburg squared the landed Junkers. Von Papen intrigued between Hindenburg's son Oskar and the still despised pre-chancellor Hitler, and equally squared the Church though his aristocratic Catholic credentials and Vatican contacts made during his own Chancellorship. Von Papen persuaded Hindenburg to appoint Hitler into the 30 January 1933 minority and appointed cabinet with a view to him, von Papen and the vested German political forces, controlling Hitler. He is famous for saying that Now we have him where we can control him. Hindenburg accepted this DNVP/Nazi majority and rejected or did not understand the last minute von Schleicher threat of Army putsch resolving the crisis. Such threat would, in fact, have saved the country from Nazism, but was anathema to the terminating presidential ambition. (See Wheeler-Bennett.)[[FK . I sourced this completely for Str1977.it is not sufficiently mentioned elsewhere.]   
   
===After Communism Hitler Neutralises the Centre and the Right===    
   
Schleicher was later assassinated by the Nazis on the Night of the Long Knives. Heinrich Brüning and the other Centre party leaders from Catholic conservatism and Catholic trade-unions effected negotiations through the first short Hitler Chancellorship, under their chairman, Monsignor Ludwig Kaas, which ended in the disastrous support for the Enabling Act. Hitler had within six weeks of his pure sufferance appointment turned the tables on everyone. He squared the right between Huguenberg and the other corporate interests, he simply eliminated the left Communists bodily, and by negotiation he neutralised the last combination between the Centre and the Socialists. Any possible last ditch resistance there was either physically assaulted during the last free elections (even Brüning was roughed-up) whilst some 26 socialists were arrested or injured. Between 20 and 22 March all combination against Hitler was lost by his allowance of limited Centre demands (for recognition of factional Catholic interests in unions and education). Constitutional fears were mysteriously promised written assuagement, and the Centre was finally squared.[FK:Mildest historical truth here, no POV re Church as per remaining questions.]   
     
===Hitler Succeeds===   
Hitler achieved in this brief period complete solution to all the most intractable parliamentary problems of Weimar Germany, and his concept of fulfilling the needs of others whilst entering into power succeeds in such manner as to carry enormous propaganda value to the German people. The people had been suffering the torments of un-resolveable parliamentary statistics through so many short-lived administrations that Hitler's stroke and mastery was overwhelming. In the November 1933 one-party Elections, Nazism gained 92.2% of the Electorate. A euphoria swept Germany in the intervening months as the long-awaited nationalist and economic saviour of the Reich fulfilled all his promises towards economic recovery.[FK:represents clearest shortest historically correct text possible, and not included yet in main WP article.]  
    
Preceding administrations had psychologically paved the way for dictatorship by having repeatedly been administrations acting without the Reichstag, dependant on flimsy alliance or majority, and existing under Decree Rule 48 for Presidential appointment The Reichstag had one power alone, which was to precede a further and generally dreaded election, with a vote of no confidence. The very concepts of democracy were subject to widespread disdain as a result of this inability to achieve lasting balance of administration. [FK:as sourced by me from Arthur Rosenberg for Str1977]-----------------end
::I, FK have posted link to this text from the main Articles suggesting in good faith that my concerns at these excisions be addressed, and that the clear import of these brief paragraphs inform the main articles, such that their clarity inform the readers more correctly than their absence. I ask any editor of good faith to assist in the incorporation. I remain in serious dispute with the user who excised this, and with the removal of the expandable link to the supposedly POV Rhenish-Westphalian Industrial Magnates recently deleted from Wikipedia after one supporting delete vote was presented , alone. It should be noted that with this excision, the true factors in the Conspiracy( the Nuremberg tribunal term) to Institute Totalitarian Government in Germany ( Nuremberg term) are orphaned, down-played or mis-arranged in Wikipedia. I find this difficult, due to the gravity of the subject- hence my intervention. Please help.EffK 20:34, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Off-topic content

message: Hitler achieved in this brief period complete solution to all the most intractable parliamentary problems of Weimar Germany, and his concept of fulfilling the needs of others whilst entering into power succeeds in such manner as to carry enormous propaganda value to the German people. The people had been suffering the torments of un-resolveable parliamentary statistics through so many short-lived administrations that Hitler's stroke and mastery was overwhelming. In the November 1933 one-party Elections, Nazism gained 92.2% of the Electorate. A euphoria swept Germany in the intervening months as the long-awaited nationalist and economic saviour of the Reich fulfilled all his promises towards economic recovery.[FK:represents clearest shortest historically correct text possible, and not included yet in main WP article.]  
    
Preceding administrations had psychologically paved the way for dictatorship by having repeatedly been administrations acting without the Reichstag, dependant on flimsy alliance or majority, and existing under Decree Rule 48 for Presidential appointment The Reichstag had one power alone, which was to precede a further and generally dreaded election, with a vote of no confidence. The very concepts of democracy were subject to widespread disdain as a result of this inability to achieve lasting balance of administration. [FK:as sourced by me from Arthur Rosenberg for Str1977]-----------------end
::I, FK have posted link to this text from the main Articles suggesting in good faith that my concerns at these excisions be addressed, and that the clear import of these brief paragraphs inform the main articles, such that their clarity inform the readers more correctly than their absence. I ask any editor of good faith to assist in the incorporation. I remain in serious dispute with the user who excised this, and with the removal of the expandable link to the supposedly POV Rhenish-Westphalian Industrial Magnates recently deleted from Wikipedia after one supporting delete vote was presented , alone. It should be noted that with this excision, the true factors in the Conspiracy( the Nuremberg tribunal term) to Institute Totalitarian Government in Germany ( Nuremberg term) are orphaned, down-played or mis-arranged in Wikipedia. I find this difficult, due to the gravity of the subject- hence my intervention. Please help.EffK 20:34, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hitler Succeeds

message: Reported as bankrupt in December 1932, the NSDAP or Nazi Party was in fettle financial health by the middle of January because the Rhenish-Westphalian industrial magnates assumed responsibility for the debts. These financial and industrial leaders had put the Nazi party back into the political arena after a large drop in the pro-Nazi vote in November 1932. In return, they had gotten promises to be paid back as, if and when Hitler came to power. It is reported that "without the formidable assistance of the industrialists the Nazi party would have foundered on the rocks of bankruptcy." (The Nemesis of Power by John Wheeler-Bennett, Macmillan 1953.)   
     
The magnates petitioned President Hindenburg after the November elections seeking the appointment of Hitler as Chancellor. Amongst the 38 signatories of the petition were Hjalmar Schacht, Thyssen, Krupp, Siemens AG, Bosch and the heads of Hamburg-Amerika and the North German-Lloyd Shipping Lines. Hitler was assiduous in fulfilling his promises after achieving the chancellorship by eliminating the Communists, abolishing the trade unions, forcing no nationalization of industry and beginning rearmament on a huge scale.   
     
Representing the industrial and financial force supporting Hitler, Hjalmar Schacht was accused at the Nuremburg trials but cleared of the charges (conspiracy to wage an aggressive war, war crimes and crimes against humanity) but sentenced in the de-nazification proceedings (Also see the Krupp Trial). --Str1977 10:41, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rhenish-Westphalian Industrial Magnates

message: The text was useful and informative, but this page has never made a lot of sense to me--it was a hodge-podge. Good stuff, but how was a reader to know? I moved all the text to a new page Hitler's rise to power which is actually what the text is about. I added links to several pages and the template. Next we should carve out the text about religion and make Nazism and religion and expand it. Then all the race material should be merged into Racial_policy_of_Nazi_Germany. The we have a cyber party and delete this page.--Cberlet 21:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hitler's rise to power

message: What in the hell? There is absolutely NO relation between Socialism and the German Nazi party. Just because the party went by the name "National Socialist," it does not in ANY respect signify them to be actual Socialists. I recommend the removal of this article completely. It is a factual inaccuracy and will mislead just about anyone studying the Political Sciences.
---Micky Z. (undated)
I agree. Someone needs to remove that section in the article about Nazism and its supposed "relation" to Socialism. There is no connection, absolutely no correlation that can be drawn between the Nazi party and Socialist policies or beliefs. A party professing the name "National Socialist" does NOT necessarily imply a party professing Socialist beliefs, policy, or values.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rabidgumby (talk • contribs) .
While I do agree that the view of the Nazis as Socialists was mostly a propaganda tool used by the Nazis in order to gather support for their Party...I STRONGLY disagree with the sections removal.  The section, if you actually read it that is, went to great lengths to dispel the notion that Nazism was actually socialist in ideology.  That section was informative, fair, and was an excellent reference for all of the non-socialist aspects of Hitler's rule.  I used it frequently in my arguments that Nazism was actually a form of Capitalism, not Socialism.
I hope that someone is able to bring it back.
--Rob S.
P.S.  I looked through the history of the article and it appears a bunch of biased right-wing ideologues kept distorting the article in order to claim that Hitler actually practiced Socialism while in power.  The article needed to be deleted but it needs to be reconstructed in order to dispel the fallacious argument that what Hitler practiced was Socialism.  
In particular, it seemed to be Sam Spade who was putting the Nazism=Socialism bullshit in there.
I mean come on Sam, the "war economy" is repesentative of a Socialist state?  What an ignorant assertion.  The war economy is representative of an Authoritarian state.  Take your uninformed, biased views elsewhere.
In closing, after viewing Sam's extensive edits I hereby request that he be banned from distorting this article.  His lack of objectivity is appaling, and even worse is his willingness to post when his logic on the issue is so flawed.
This is the man who claims the Nazi's were socialist because they said so.
I mean honestly!  Get with it.  Ban this guy from editting this section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.45.133.94 (talk • contribs) 24 Jan 2006.
I strongly agree with Rob S. about bringing the Nazi Relation to Socialism section back. I was looking forward to reading it and found it gone. As he said, it related the differences moreso than the similarities. EIther way, if it had compared it closely or not, it is a valid topic for discussion. I can't help but despise the idiotic proportions to which political correctness has been taken these days. If you don't talk about issues that make you think and question your own ideals, then you've done nothing but brain-wash yourself into a set view of the world. If you've read Brave New World, Animal Farm, 1984, or any other "ideal-society gone bad" books, that's how it all starts: idealistic masses and a couple of smartasses in power that know how to take advantage of them.
Lastly, although I do agree that each topic should be written and viewed objectively, I don't agree with your down-sizing of right-wing idealists. Simply because in saying that, you yourself are not viewing the topic objectively. Hypocrisy doesn't complement. --64.228.202.95 06:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This topic is discussed in great length at Fascism and ideology. Please DO NOT start a topic fork, but instead join the editing on that page.--Cberlet 20:00, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Several editors have been working on that section of that page form weeks. The etxt you placed on this page was 95% totally duplicate of the text on  Fascism and ideology. Please do not start another pointless confrontation.
You've failed to address any of my points, so it would appear that you are indeed engaging in pointless confrontation. I will request page protection. Sam Spade 14:17, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You have misunderstood the claim, which is that right wing ideologues are deliberately and falsely identifying Nazism as socialist so as to deny any connection between Nazism and their own politics. This is much the same thing as when Socialists say "Stalin wasn't really a socialist". -- Jmabel | Talk 03:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nazism and socialism

message: Discussions of the relationship between Fascism and socialism and Nazism and socialism keep appearing on multiple pages. Recently, an old version of the section on Nazism and socialism was placed here, although an expanded version of this discussion already exists on the page Fascism_and_ideology#Fascism.2C_Nazism.2C_socialism.2C_collectivism.2C_and_corporatism. There is no point to have the same major discussion on multiple pages.
On what page does the section on Nazism and socialism belong?
Fascism and ideology---Nazism in relation to other concepts---Fascism and socialism---Nazism and socialism
Please discuss and vote on this dispute at  this talk page. Thanks.--Cberlet 14:55, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Where does section on Nazism and socialism belong? Discuss and vote

message: I've read somewhere else on wikipedia (not sure where) that the Nazi's used the word "Socialist" in their name "National Socialist" as a way to attract Socialists into the party. If this is true, perhaps the article should mention this, since the article makes it clear that there really is nothing "Socialist" about National Socialism. -February 24 2006
:The article shouldn't be making that clear, since it isn't. Nazi's wanted communists to join them (Hitler mentioned the advisability of that early and often), but had little need for outside socialist involvement, since they were socialist to begin with! Sam Spade 23:05, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "It has for example been argued…" in the article with reference to the supposed connection between Nazism and socialism. Would someone please substantiate this weaselly phrase with the name of some reputable scholar by whom it has been argued? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:13, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Until the Nazis were in power, it was relatively unclear what they stood for (other than anti-Semitism, and even that was sometimes soft-pedaled, though not by Hitler). Lest we forget, this was a party in which, in June 1934, one faction of the party organized the slaughter of another faction. - Jmabel | Talk 03:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The word "Socialist"