Talk:Clay Aiken/Archive 13

message: I'd like to get some feedback from the other editors on an issue that has come up.  Carlossuarez46 has twice deleted the category of Baptist from this entry.  The second time the following exchange occurred:
from Carlossuarez46 talk page:
I see that you have removed "Baptists" from Clay Aiken's entry again, again saying there is no evidence.  In his memoirs Aiken states that he grew up in the Baptist church, attended the Moravian church for a time as a teen, and then returned to the Baptist church (pp. 212-213). On page 213 he states, "Today I am a proud Southern Baptist."  In addition to that evidence, here's a link from the Raleigh Leesville Baptist Church's website: . -Jmh123 00:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think some of the more general argument is that if it his being a Baptist is so insignificant that it is not mentioned in the article, then classifying him as such in a category would be unhelpful.  On the other hand, if his being a Baptist is significant then it should be put in the article.  --Hamiltonian 00:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While his being a Christian is a significant part of his identity, being a Baptist is not especially so, in my opinion.  Anyone have a different view?  -Jmh123 04:41, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I swore I wasn't going to get into this, so someone else, please write about this.  Aiken grew up a Southern Baptist, but he has had his issues with them.  He talks in his book about leaving that church for a time and attending a Moravian church in Raleigh, before deciding that he felt comfortable distancing himself from the beliefs of the Southern Baptists while still worshipping with the church community he grew up in.  He probably sang a lot in that church growing up, but I haven't seen anything written about this.  Anyone?  In the book he also talks about strong disagreement with an relative (an aunt?)'s stance towards homosexuality. Given the assumptions some have made about his fans' and Aiken's own attitudes towards religion, moral conservativism, homosexuality and so forth, it would be interesting to add a well-written section on some of these matters, in Wikipedia style--no original research, no speculation, NPOV, reliable and verifiable sources, and keeping to the tone and style of what has already been written. And given this lot, be prepared to argue. :) -Jmh123 02:51, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Moravian church wasn't in Raleigh.  Give me a few days to do some research and I'll do an outline.  - Maria202 03:02, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm glad you're interested, and look forward to reading what you come up with.  -Jmh123 03:50, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I may be wrong about where the Moravian church was located. I have a friend who's been filling my head with stories about the Baptist church and the Moravian chuch, so yeah - I'm interested.  - Maria202 03:56, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks.  It's a great start to work from, a lot of good research.  I'm just getting ready to log off and catch up with work.  I have some ideas; will respond more in detail later, probably not today, but I hope there will be a balancing perspective that shows ways in which he is atypical of Southern Baptists.  Learning to Sing is a good source for that.  I can work on that if no one else wants to.  I hope others will offer input as well.  -Jmh123 18:02, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religious affiliation category 

message: Many sources credit him as a teacher. His university major is special ed. His autobiography states that he taught special ed at Brentwood. I say we add :Category:American teachers to this article. -User:Carie
:I have mixed feelings about this.  I see that there are a few others in that category who are more notable for other things, such as Laura Bush and Strom Thurmond.  I could go either way with this.  I wonder if there's a policy or accepted standard regarding the number of categories per entry. -Jmh123 07:12, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not so sure this is a good idea right now.  He said he's certified to teach in NC and that's why he was able to tutor Gregory.  I'm not clear on the difference between being certified and being licensed.  Maybe at some future date when we have more facts available.  Maria202 03:55, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Teacher category 

message: I think that even more important than how good (or not) a singer he is, this question more than anything else occupies my mind. The AI contract was notorious in how restrictive it was to the winner's/contestant's subsequent careers. How did Aiken manage the feat of successfully breaking it, and in helping Kelly Clarkson achieve the same thing? The answer would reveal a side of the man not heretofore appreciated, that of a savvy, tough businessman. If anyone knows how he pulled the trick I would like to know. -- Jalabi99 22:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Kelly's fan boards Kelly's brother found that the materials she paid for to promote her cd were not being sent to the stores and that's how she got out of her contract.  There was a lot of speculation that Clay had something to do with Kelly joining The Firm, the management company he was with at the time.  As Jmh123 said, there are no verifiable sources for this information.  - Maria202 00:37, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: An added thought.  Most of the press about this came when Mario Vasquez quit American Idol last year.  There were many reports that Mario had hired "Clay Aiken's lawyer" to get him out of his American Idol contract.   Bo Bice also hired "Clay Aiken's lawyer" after the show was over, and delayed signing his RCA contract as Clay had done, while, presumably, the lawyer was playing hardball (but there are no press links coming up on google regarding that connection). Perhaps "Clay Aiken's lawyer" should be the one who gets the Wikipedia attention. -Jmh123 01:12, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, "Clay Aiken's lawyer" must be the Johnnie Cochran of ex-A.I.ers...who you gonna call? Clay Aiken's lawyer! :) -- Jalabi99 10:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

text: And one more thing, Jmh123: I looked [here] and elsewhere, and nowhere did I see where it is official Wikipedia policy that "normally we start new topics at the bottom of the "talk" page"...but yeah, well, whatever floats your boat. -- Jalabi99 10:34, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Wikipedia tutorial on "talk" pages Wikipedia:Tutorial_%28Talk_pages%29 says, "When you post a new comment, put it at the bottom of the talk page," but my intention was only to indicate common practice on this page. Apologies if I offended. -Jmh123 14:36, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: How did Clay Aiken help Kelly Clarkson break her "American Idol" contract?

message: Can it be added to early history that Clay went to for music training and is now an alumni of The Raleigh Boychoir?  --Nate D 03:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Raleigh Boy Choir 

message: I am not sure the putting the Br in the refs is a good idea.  You just exchange a wide list for a longer page - and it looks less consistent.  Michigan user 17:07, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Trouble is the two long references don't end up as a wider line; they end up two lines long even without the Br, but with just a few words carried over (at least on my computer).  It ends up looking really bad to me.  I am open to suggestions for better fixes.  -Jmh123 23:54, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Issue becomes not every viewer is using your browser/screen resolution, typical wikipedia practice is to allow individual browsers to do line wrapping when necessary, not force them to wrap.  ALKIVAR™ 01:45, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wow, your siggy is scary. So sorry.  I fixed it.  -Jmh123 02:20, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

text: It looks like the musical artist infobox is still at the proposal stage and is subject to change. - Maria202 20:39, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:   Thanks - I just stole the one from Bo Bice.  Guess that I should have checked it out.  Lucky you are running around cleaning up behind me.  -- 66.82.9.70 22:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sometimes I need to clean up after myself too. :) So if you won't be insulted I'll clean it up some more. - Maria202 23:33, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Style 

message: * 66.82.9.82 added the Band Infobox.  If were going to have an infobox I think we should use the one for a musical artist which fits the subject better. I changed the color to the one for a solo artist.  Under "formed" I added to the present.   Comments? eta: I don't know where the "T" at the top is coming from but I'm not crazy about that.  - Maria202 20:10, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like the musical artist infobox is still at the proposal stage and is subject to change. - Maria202 20:39, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:   Thanks - I just stole the one from Bo Bice.  Guess that I should have checked it out.  Lucky you are running around cleaning up behind me.  -- 66.82.9.70 22:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sometimes I need to clean up after myself too. :) So if you won't be insulted I'll clean it up some more. - Maria202 23:33, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox Band vs. Musical Artist

message: It has been certified 3x platinum !! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.84.101 (talk • contribs) 
According to the RIAA's website it isn't.  If you have any other information, please provide a reference. ArglebargleIV 20:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RIAA certification 

message: Hi guys - long time no see!  I brought back a chunk of the archive.  A few items are less relevant, but I didn't want to be moving selected sections within the archive, so I brought a big chunk of consecutive material that contains items of continued relevance.  Please let me know if I missed anything. -Jmh123 16:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restoring portion of archive 

message: Arglebargle, Jaymes Foster announced the album title A Thousand Different Ways in her blog on the Official Clay Aiken Fan Club. The rules of the fan club prevent members from copying her blog. Maria202 02:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh.  I'm sorry about that -- I did misunderstand you.  Please accept my apologies. -- ArglebargleIV 18:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Album title

message: Does anybody know why Clay_Aiken.jpg was deleted?  It's annoying when an image is deleted because the history goes with it. -- ArglebargleIV 14:33, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Image is gone

message: Can't we put RIAA Certification as 2 x platinum and (UNOFFICIALLY 3x platinum) ? unsigned by 24.89.247.70 
*In their press release RCA said it was certified 3x platinum but RIAA hasn't updated their data base.  It's probably better to wait for the update before changing it.  Maria202 19:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Certification 

message: WP:GA review: as of 21:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is Wikipedia, where one person's opinion expressed authoritatively carries more weight than the guidelines.  -Jmh123 19:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  There are hundreds of rumors out there about Clay Aiken.  Who gets to be the one who decides which ones get publicized in Wikipedia?  So far as I can tell the "gay rumors" have not had any real impact on Clay's career.  Who gets to decide if it did?  The ones who might benefit from the publicity it it gets included in the article?  The fans with an agenda?  The haters with an agenda?  Frankly I think that including ANY rumor (including your Hillary example) just corrupts the reliability of Wikipedia, and opens it up to liability and ethical issues, and I am firmly against it.  66.82.9.82 22:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is not a valid academic argument. Wikipedia has a many guidelines and policy as to what is or is not notable (Wikipedia:Notability). Please remember we are writing an encyclopedia to be read by others; not a work of art for our own enjoyment. It is a fact that any given celebrity is constantly surrounded by rumors. The vast majority (and sometimes all of them) are not notable and are not appropriate for an encyclopedia. But those that are notable enough to make national headlines in non-celebrity rags become notable controversies that should be noted here (and debunked as appropriate). To censor them out completely is dishonest to the reader. What do we say to the reader who comes to Wikipedia to find the truth about the a sex scandal they heard about on CNN or read about in the New York Times? Nothing? They will leave Wikipedia thinking that this encyclopedia is either incomplete or a mouthpiece of Mr. Aiken's PR campaign. Davodd 10:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There has been no mention of a "sex scandal" in the New York Times.  Page Six is the New York Post gossip column.  Quite a difference. Fundamentally, you are asking Wikipedia to go where legitimate news organizations have not, and for good reason.  -Jmh123 16:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Notability issue was discussed in detail relating to the Paulus fanfic stuff.  No mainstream news organization ever touched the topic.  The entire saga was played out in the tabloids and gossip columns.  Page Six of the New York Times is a gossip column, not a news source.  CNN never once mentioned Paulus. The legit news sources wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole because the story stunk back then and the believability of the guy has gotten MUCH worse since then.  The original tabloid, breaking the so called story, basically called him a liar in print.  Actually the Paulus article was a candidate for deletion, due to non-notbility. It was unresolved, so the article is still there, waiting to see how things play out.  The lack of mainstream coverage really irritated the guy and his cohorts.  That is why the supposed 9 fan FTC complaint was entered, trying to escalate the topic into national coverage.  However, that complaint never mentioned a word about Paulus. There were several incorrect mentions of the FTC complaint as a lawsuit by news sources (lousy news reporting, they need a fact checker).  As others have mentioned, you need to go back and read the discussion.  This has been hashed over before, and the Paulus story is just non-notable.  It is basically a stalker harrassing a celebrity.  Happens all the time.  Since it had no impact, it is non-notable.  This article already gives the topic more attention than it deserves.  Michigan user 10:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion moved from todo 

message: There are literally HUNDREDS of fansites devoted to Clay.  There was already a clean up discussion, and the compromise reached was that there would be one newletter listed and one site that would direct the user to all the OTHER zillion sites.  Finding Clay Aiken has the expanded list allowing the readers to find the sites that they might be interested in. This is not spam, it was an agreed upon compromise.  Michigan user 11:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Can you point me towards to policy about the fansite links?  I can't find it. But yes, there was a bunch of discussion that included the Newsletter.  Sort of buried in those archive pages - LOL.  66.82.9.59 22:18, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Clay Nation News is listed on Finding Clay Aiken so if one needs to be eliminated that's the one to eliminate. However a newsletter is not a fan site. - Maria202 23:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I've seen people refer to the guideline about fansites, but I can't actually find it. I could be wrong.  I don't mind if they both stay, myself. -- ArglebargleIV 23:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links 

message: OK - the article now contains a paragraph for each of the controversies mentioned. For balance or whatever.  Michigan user 22:31, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Neutral 

message: Don't get me wrong on this because I'm a fan of Kelly's too and I edit her page right along with this one.  I'm not going to get into an edit war over this but I do not think this sentence belongs in the opening paragraph.  "Aiken has also sold more albums than any American Idol winner, with the lone exception being the winner from American Idol, Season One, Kelly Clarkson."  As I stated when I reverted the first time, album sales fluctuate and what is true today can change tomorrow. Additionaly, it is not sourced and comes off sounding POV.  We already have a sentence calling Aiken the most successful 2nd place finisher with a citation and the second sentence to me is redundant. I felt that first sentence didn't really belong there either but I did go searching for a source for it.   If I went and put Clay's name in Kelly's opening paragraph, it's my opinion that the editors of that page would be having a fit. 
Comments? - Maria202 16:25, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah - what ArglebargleIV said.  Except I don't think that they AI comparisons need to go on forever.  Sheesh.  69.19.14.35 19:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Album Sales 

message: I'm tired of bastards worrying about his homosexuality. Why does everyone have to ask if someone is gay? No one is going around badgering people if their heterosexual. Twentyboy 13:06, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The lack of respect for the subject of this article and some of the editors here is appalling. 12.76.216.15 15:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm equally tired of fanboys and girls worried about his heterosexuality. However the issue is reporting fair and factual news and attempts to stomp on the Paulus story, while other mainstream media has picked it up and other people turned this down as a Good Article nomination because of the biased grip some editors have on this page, have thus far turned up unsuccessful. - mixvio 21:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:   No mainstream media has mentioned JP. 69.19.14.41 02:51, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Continually avoiding the topic is why your article failed the nomination. Others can see your bias, I don't get why you have such difficulty with it. - mixvio 13:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

text: The tabloids were careful to use the word alleged.  alleged - declared but not proved, supposed. Aiken said the tabloid stories were not true.  Not true - false.  "One thing I've found of people in the public eye...either you're a womanizer or you've got to be gay. Since I'm neither one of those, people are completely concerned about me... They're like...what are you then?" - Clay Aiken (Rollingstone).  It's to bad you think believing what a man says about himself is biased.  But, like Aiken said - people are going to believe what they want to believe.  - Maria202 20:11, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, I find absolute denial that a story was reported in the press to be biased. I don't care whether or not he's gay, or whether or not you think he's gay. It doesn't change the fact that the story exists. Trying to hide it is why you lost the nomination. - mixvio 04:15, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The point is not hiding the story, it is minimizing damage that false tabloid stories can do to a celebrity, and minimizing the libel  exposure that Wikipedia has.  Right or wrong, this sort of a story CAN damage a mans reputation.  Which was the intent.  Right now the world has passed by this story.  Wikipedia is pretty much the only vehicle that there is any push to spread the gossip in- which is against Wikipedia guidelines.  The article does refer to the stories exising.  How much more damage should Wikipedia endorse?  Note the caution above:      "  <B>" This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material (negative, positive, or just highly questionable) that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. Concerns relative to this policy can be addressed on the living persons biographies noticeboard." </B>   Tabloids are NOT a good source.  You are trying to subvert the intent of Wikipedia using technicalities.  69.19.14.37 11:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A quick check of the contribution history shows that Mixvio's contributions to this article are mainly confined to arguing for the Paulus story on the this articles talk page. It seems that when he refers to it as "your article" he is correct, considering he has made minimal contributions to anything other than the one tabloid allegation.  The belligerent attitude toward other editors appears to be POV. - Maria202 15:02, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

text:  I have no interest in Clay Aiken whatsoever. I find his music barely passable for 40 year old housewives and bubblegum. I don't care about his life, or his church experiences, or anything. That's why I have no other contributions besides trying to ensure that you don't succeed in POVing up this article with denial. Attacking me still doesn't change the reason why you lost. Because perfect strangers could come by, who are editors and admins and have vast experience in Wikipedia besides you two and know what's good and what's bad, and said "Holy crap, can we say bias?" Belligerence is earned, dearbear, and you certainly have earned it in spades. And besides I make most of my edits anonymously unless it's something that needs to be discussed. I'm not in the business of running around like it's a badge of honor because I have 138728947147134 edits under my name. - mixvio 21:14, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:   Well you seem to have a lot of interest in Clay's sexual orientation, and in pushing to include salacious details of tabloid stories based on lies in this article.  Can we say bias? And if you think that getting a Good Article nomination is a reason for adding libelous content to an article and potentially damaging another human beings reputation - then frankly your priorities are really messed.  And your priorities are not in line with the "living persons biographies" guidelines of Wikipedia. So there is really not all that much to continue talking about.  We had a consensus.  That still stands.  69.19.14.19 22:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I had nothing to do with you losing the nomination. Others made that decision. You can't blame me for it. :) - mixvio 18:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The issues that Davodd listed have been addressed.  Why do you keep harping on it? What exactly are you complaining about now?  It is just as possible for fancruft to be anti as well as pro.  And at this point that looks like what you are engaging in. The objective shoud be a balance, and I believe that is what we have at this point.   69.19.14.30 19:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm "harping" because you still don't get what the problem derived from in the beginning. The article is better now, yes, but it's not as unbiased as it really should be, in my opinion, but I'm willing to compromise for the sake of this argument having gone on for nearly a year now. But you still don't understand what the issue is, hence me pointing it out. - mixvio 02:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: A consensus was reached and the article reflects that.  If you can't see that fellow editors have differing opinions that is your problem. At this stage, posting the same point over and over seems argumentative and an attempt to have the last word.  Stop suggesting that any opinion other than your own is invalid, foolish and biased. The Wikipedia community is better served with cooperation rather than an agressive attempt to have your own way.  Your passion is getting in the way of reason and you'd be much better served by respecting your fellow editors and working with them instead of against them.  - Maria202 14:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'd say the same about you, dear. - mixvio 14:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  gay Clay