Talk:Ancient Egyptian race controversy

message: Reading the last part of the article, I wonder why these sections are arbitrarily split, when they all seem to argue for a West Asian component? Which is basically what has since been confirmed by genetic testing, though the article presents it as if it's completely rejected. FunkMonk (talk) 02:21, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @FunkMonk There is a clear distinction between the old, racialist hypotheses from the 19th century and modern genetics. These old, essentialist models argued that an “advanced”, “external” race displaced the local, African populations and initiated the development of the Egyptian civilization. This is completely different from the conclusions of some genetic studies. Those studies have identified lineages (genetic mutations) from haplogroup J which originated from West Asia along with haplogroup group E which derived from East Africa. Furthermore, haplogroup E emerged earlier and has been attributed to a local population which descended from groups in northeast Africa/Horn of Africa whereas the younger haplogroup J has been attributed to a gradual genetic flow from the Near East over time. Also, haplogroups do not conclusively indicate skin color but population relationships and ancestry.There is still dispute among modern scholars about the value of genetics in relation to this specific question. Several scholars favor a multi-disciplinary approach rather than relying on genetics as a conclusive answer. Currently, the international consensus (UNESCO) among scholars is that the Egyptian civilization was ethnically heterogeneous and this view was based on a range of evidence including historical linguistics, biological anthropology, historical texts and visual iconography. Those scholars opposed the other aforementioned models and the corresponding information has already been cited. WikiUser4020 (talk) 05:54, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I see, the part about the genetics was more of an afterthought, the main point being that the three sections listed all appear to be arguing for the same thing (West Asian/Mesopotamian influence), but now they're represented as distinct, while the "Black Egyptian hypothesis" section also draws on various different theories, but is presented as one monolithic theory. FunkMonk (talk) 10:36, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This is merely standard POV pushing. Any arbitrary comment which even vaguely supports a Black Egyptian position gets massively emphasized, no matter how tenuous the samples and the connections, while hard science which supports a West Asian origin is fudged out. The DNA evidence is continually stacking up in support of a West Asian origin, and so the Black Egyptian authors are reduced to trying to discredit the DNA evidence - by citing tenuous linguistic "connections", reinterpreting skull measurements and scrutinizing carefully selected 4000-year-old paintings etc. However the mountain of hard evidence which supported the old 19th century hypotheses has not gone away either, and so it gets presented in carefully structured ways in attempts to diminish its significance. Interesting times. Wdford (talk) 10:59, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @Wdford Stop with the personal attacks and accusations. I have explicitly made it clear that the international consensus among historians in regards to the issue (“mixed population”).@FunkMonk is simply enquiring on the format of the sub-sections. Secondarily, genetics do not point to a West Asian origin but have determined the majority of the Y-chromosome paternal clades among Egyptians to fall under the E haplogroup which stemmed from a source population that emerged in East Africa. I would rather avoid wasting time debating this as the forthcoming UNESCO publication will conclude the matter. WikiUser4020 (talk) 11:28, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

text: @FunkMonk That is a valid point. I suppose those hypotheses were formulated by different authors(i.e. Petrie and Seligman) whereas the Black Egyptian hypothesis is usually associated with Diop as the original proponent. Other scholars within the Black Egyptian hypothesis seem to echo Diop’s views rather than  posit a fundamentally distinct view. I think the sub section could be combined but other users may have a differing view ? (You’ll probably need a consensus vote for that type of change) WikiUser4020 (talk) 11:00, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I don't think it's going to be easy, was just throwing it out there, as it seems like a mess. As it is now, I think most people skimming the article would think "Asiatic race theory" would refer to East Asians, when it's basically the same as the other two. FunkMonk (talk) 11:09, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @FunkMonk The section title could be renamed but I would await for other responses on this issue. WikiUser4020 (talk) 11:31, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

text: "would think "Asiatic race theory" would refer to East Asians" How is East Asia remotely relevant to Asiatics or Asians? Dimadick (talk) 09:16, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Because most people today would think that to be synonymous with East Asians, just look at common usage. I'm well aware and have made perfectly clear that in this context it refers to West Asia, which is part of the point of this thread, various synonyms for basically the same theory is used in three different titles. FunkMonk (talk) 15:23, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asiatic race theory, Caucasian / Hamitic hypothesis and Dynastic race theory are the same 

message: 23.28.167.2 (talk) 12:49, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 13:35, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 7 August 2023 

message: Egyptologists react to the Schuenemann study in Nature: 
Stuart Smith, 'Black Pharaohs?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=4QK7P0Bdpj0&t=2951
Vanessa Davies
https://youtube.com/watch?v=U2GgiSnE3BY&t=1627
Christopher Ehret
The Africanity of Ancient Egypt: Huggins Lectures
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_DD4nmyoss&t=1210s
2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 02:58, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Egyptologists React To The Schuenemann Krause Study