Talk:List of primary urban areas in England by population

message: The sentence which reads "Historically, cities with in England and the United Kingdom as a whole have remained largely undefined,..." is completely misleading, because a definition, known as an enumerative definition does exist: The official website of the Department of Constitutional Affairs provides a list of all cities in England, Scotland, and Wales, and Northern Ireland. This is a clear-cut example of a definition by enumeration. If people would like some professional philosophical references about these kinds of definitions, I can provide that as being within my own area of professional expertise. I have changed the opening to add in this information, but I do not know how to make the paragraph fit in with this correct fact, and so have left the rest the way it was except for adding a fact tag to the claim, quoted above. It cannot be correctly fixed by merely deleting my addition.  DDStretch  (talk) 23:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Completely misleading sentence

message: Contributors to this page may also be interested in this requested move: Talk:List of largest urban sub-divisions in England by population#Requested move DWaterson 23:48, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: In other places...

message: I note the addition of the extra Notes column - a very valuable addition, I think.  However, some of the items in there are incorrect, but I can't think of a good way to express them.  The issue that I have is that, for example, in the Rochdale notes it states "All towns in the Greater Manchester Urban Area split into three PUA's, Manchester, Bolton and Rochdale". This isn't true - as there are areas within the Greater Manchester Urban Area that are not part of any of the PUAs - for example, Wilmslow and Whitworth.
Equally, there are areas that are outside the GMUA (but within the GM County) that are included within the PUAs.  This is due to the PUAs being only very approximately related to the Urban Area.  PUAs are simply agglomerations of local authority areas.
Can someone think of a way of keeping the valuable extra information whilst not losing out on accuracy? Fingerpuppet 12:47, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One solution may be to say "MOST" towns in the Greater Manchester Urban Area split into three PUA's", unless more research is carried out to discover which towns in the Greater Manchester Urban Area go into which Local Authority Areas, and from that identify in which PUA they have been placed. --Statsfan 13:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How about simply placing the local authority names within, given that PUAs are agglomerations of those, and depending on exactly where the local authority boundary lies, parts of certain towns might be within, whilst others will be outside.  Obvious starting points for towns/cities where this occurs would probably be Stoke-on-Trent, Reading and Wolverhampton. Fingerpuppet 16:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Be my guest Fingerpuppet. I presume you have Appendix 2 of Volume 2 of the report. The only problem will be many Local Authority Areas contain several towns which may not get highlighted e.g Kirklees and Sandwell. --Statsfan 20:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Notes column

message: I propose that this article should be moved to the far less ambiguous List of Primary Urban Areas in England by population, given that this isn't a list of cities, but a statistical way of looking at conurbations; that several large and/or important cities are missing from the list (being part of PUAs named after other towns or cities), and many of the PUAs are named after towns that do not hold City Status.   Fingerpuppet 14:22, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggested move of article

message: This article states Leeds' primary urban area population of 443,000 there abouts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds
However this article on the primary urban areas list its population at 596,000. This is correct, but the Leeds article is not.
Including Watford, Dartford, Broxbourne etc is the population figures for Greater London is incredibly misleading. This is taking in much of the main urban areas of the home counties to increase London's population quite significantly. This is incredibly misleading- no definition of London includes these areas.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.173.15.50 (talk) 13:23, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No it is not. If the only reliable source, the Office of National Statistics, says that they are part of the London Urban Area then they are. To change this in favour of your own interpetation is contrary to WP:SYN, WP:OR and WP:RS. And WP:POV of course. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:26, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

text: No, PUAs are not the same thing as Urban Areas, or Urban sub-divisions (or settlements).  These are purely statistical items for the State of the English Cities report.  The figures in this article are correct for PUAs. Fingerpuppet (talk) 08:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conflict of statistics 

message: It seems highly likely to me that the 'English Cities' report will not be updated with the data the 2011 census.  If I'm right, this article will have to be deleted since it will be unacceptably out of date. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:26, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I was theoretically correct but wrong. There was a 2011 update, but not one based on the 2011 census. See Updating the evidence base on English cities - final report. An interesting aspect of it is the way it is happy to combine settlements separated by miles of (relatively) open countryside - e.g., Milton Keynes and Aylesbury, Northampton and Wellingborough, Reading and Bracknell. Cert 18 for those fans of ceremonial cities who are of nervous disposition. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 14:56, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Obsolescent article

message: There seems to be a lot given in this article to explain what a Primary Urban Area isn't.  It'd be nice if the focus was more on what it is, and that appears to only get one sentence.  We know that this isn't a definition of a locality/settlement, local government district, or urbanized/built-up area.  Perhaps, that should come at the end of the introduction.  If I understand what we're measuring with this page, it's contiguous urbanized electoral wards of a certain population threshold.  Could we cut down on some of the wordiness of the article and feature this definition right out in front so as to clearly distinguish this from other "city" ranking pages for the United Kingdom? --Criticalthinker (talk) 07:30, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately it isn't contiguous urbanisation either, or at least not exclusively. At its most simple, it is whatever the government says it is! As noted above, it includes places separated by miles of countryside - but also conglomerations like the West Midlands (which it calls Birmingham, to the outrage of Wolverhampton and Dudley). If we could say it is 'a list of contiguous Urban Areas [as defined by the ONS] with more than 250,000 population', that would be oh so convenient. But we can't, because the government didn't define it like that. It was only ever a planning mechanism, to do a 'compare and contrast' between places. I really don't think it worth while expending a lot of energy on this: we only need the article so that we can provide a definition to people who come across the term elsewhere. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:22, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Correction: we have an article called Primary Urban Area which provides the definition needed. This article is dead in the water - nothing links to it. It narrowly escaped a deletion proposal. 'Leave it alone, it's only scenery'. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:33, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I looked at the article and am even more confused.  It seems to say that there areas are basically contiguous (not miles of countryside, rather 50 meter seperations at most).  It still seems to me that there are defined as a collection of "localities/settlements" generally thought of as historic, single-entity "cities."  So, it's a kind of statistical measurement between "locality/settlement" and "urban area."  Even if I'm wrong about this, I would like the definition on this page to be made more clear. --Criticalthinker (talk) 00:59, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

text: Oh, goodness.  And, even more to add to the confusion, it looks like the Leeds PUA is constiguous with the City of Leeds local government district, which can't be right.  I thought the whole point of the PUA was to given a more realistic feeling of a "city's" size than arbitrary local government districts definitions. --Criticalthinker (talk) 01:06, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification 

message: This article is irritating misinformation.  The reader should either be advised via the title that it relates to 2001 or it should be deleted. JRPG (talk) 15:12, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delete this obsolete article -or rename to show it is historical, relating to 2001 

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thread_title:  External links modified