Talk:Anti-Polish sentiment/Archive 4

message: As to speeches 
http://www.hitler.org/speeches/10-06-39.html
"Versailles was the cradle of a Polish State which had emerged from the untold sacrifice of blood - not of Polish but of German and Russian blood. Poland, who for centuries past had proved herself incapable of existence, was in 1916 artificially begotten and in 1919 no less artificially born by a German government just as incapable of existence.
In utter disregard of almost 500 years of experience, without consideration for the lesson of historical development during many centuries, without appreciation for ethnographic conditions and with no regard for all economic expediencies, a State was constructed at Versailles which, according to its whole nature, was sooner or later bound to become the cause of a most serious crisis.
A man who, I am sorry to say, now ranks among our fiercest enemies, at that time clearly foresaw all this. I mean Mr. Lloyd George. Like so many others he sounded warning, not only at the time of the creation of that structure but also in the course of its subsequent expansion which had taken place in utter disregard of reason and right.
At that time he expressed apprehension that in that State an accumulation of conditions was being created containing the risk of conflicts which sooner or later might lead to great European complications.
As a matter of fact, conditions surrounding the structure of this new so-called State, as far as its nationalities were concerned, could not be clarified until now. It requires some knowledge of Polish census methods to realize how utterly alien to truth, and therefore irrelevant, statistics on the national composition of that territory were and are.
In 1919 the Poles laid claims to the territory where they pretended to have a majority of 95 per cent - in East Prussia, for instance - whereas a plebiscite later showed the Poles actually had reached a figure of 2 per cent.
In the State finally created, which contained parts of former Russia, Austria, and Germany, non-Polish elements were so brutally ill-treated, suppressed, tyrannized and tortured that any plebiscite depended entirely on the good will of local administrative officials for producing such results as were desired or demanded. "
"Unlimited patience and still greater self-restraint were called for because many of the regional Polish administrative officials took the understanding between Germany and Poland to be merely a license for the persecution and annihilation of the Germans in Poland with even less risk. In the few years up to 1922 more than one-and-a-half million Germans had been forced to leave their homes. "
Almost exact copy of Pawelka's speech.Except of course it was made by Hitler.Both even cite Lloyd George...
And another :
http://www.hitler.org/speeches/09-13-39.html
"The fact that a province was torn from the German Reich and that other German territories were given to the Polish State was explained on the grounds of national necessity. Later, plebiscites everywhere showed that no one wished to become a part of the Polish State - that Polish State which arose out of the blood of countless German regiments. It then expanded at the expense of old settlement areas and above all at the expense of intelligence and economic possibility."
"Poland itself was a 'nationalities State.' That very thing had been created here which had been held against the old Austrian State. At the same time Poland was never a democracy. One very thin anemic upper class here ruled not only foreign nationalities but also its so-called own people.
It was a State built on force and governed by the truncheons of the police and the military. The fate of Germans in this State was horrible"
" The world, which immediately sheds tears when Germany expels a Polish Jew who only a few decades ago came to Germany, remained dumb and deaf toward the misery of those who, numbering not thousands but millions, were forced to leave their home country on account of Versailles - that is, if these unfortunates were Germans. What was for us and also for me most depressing was the fact that we had to suffer all this from a State which was far inferior to us; for, after all, Germany is a Great Power, even though madmen believed the vital rights of a great nation could be wiped out by a crazy treaty or by dictation.
Germany was a big power and had to look on while a far inferior people of a far inferior State maltreated these Germans. There were two especially unbearable conditions: First, this city whose German character nobody could deny was not only prevented from returning to the Reich but in addition an attempt was made to Polonize it by all kinds of devices; second, the province [East Prussia] severed from the German Reich had no direct contact with the Reich, but traffic with this province was dependent upon all kinds of chicanery or upon the good will of this Polish State.
No power on earth would have borne this condition as long as Germany. I do not know what England would have said about a similar peace solution at its expense or how America or France would have accepted it. I attempted to find a solution - a tolerable solution - even for this problem. I submitted this attempt to the Polish rulers in the form of verbal proposals. You know these proposals. They were more than moderate.... "
--Molobo 12:18, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No doubt about it, but he is still respectable for English, French etc. Alx-pl D 06:12, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Well, some things do not need polls, as they are stated in respectable sources, see at the first paragraph in this BBC page. Alx-pl D 13:42, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

text: So you admit that there were such sufferings. Note it is not my myth or my interpretation, it is an interpretation of a (simple minded) European. Of course, the majority was Polish (on territories with German population) and it was Polish buissnes to fight for the borders since every Pole outside the borders stood in face of persecution. Alx-pl D 06:12, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

text: In fact, all of them together. I could have written of course English, Irish, Norse, Swedish, Finnish, Danish, Dutch, Belg, Luxembughian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Swiss, German, Austrian, Czech, Slovak, Hungarian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Greek, Serb, Horvat, Slovenian, Bosnian, Albanian, Macedonian, Russian, Ukrainian, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian instead (I guess I missed some nation, my apologies). Alx-pl D 13:17, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

text: The article does not aim at objective description. There is no such a thing in humanities. This article aims at a neutral description of the problem and this means it has to take into account different points of view in a balanced form.  Alx-pl D 06:12, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I do not undrestand Depends on whom you ask. pedophila, Holocaust, antisemitism and Nazism,should take into account "different views" - yes, provided that there are such important views. In fact, antisemitism contains a sentence like this Poland is actively trying to address concerns about anti-semitism which is clearly out of the POV of those who blame Poland of total anit-semitism. Alx-pl D 13:17, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pawelka speech and Hitler ones 

message: "Mai 1921 Überfall auf das deutsche Oberschlesien verbunden mit unsäglichen Grausamkeiten an der deutschen Bevölkerung"--Molobo 22:50, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Translation: May 1921 attack on the German Upper-Silesia connected to terrible cruelties for the German population." So in what way does that justify your headlingNightBeAsT 23:18, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In this piece of his long speech that you took out of its context, he never mentioned any liberation of Poland but just an attack on Germany and I've no idea whether or not he is right, nor whether or not you're right. If he is wrong, post a reliable source which says Pawelka was wrong there, because the respected polish newspaper made no mention of it, so they must have found it irrelevant or right too. I know you like to cherrypick and assume bad faith when it comes to Pawelka, so please find a source which criticises Pawelka there and thus suggests that this part of the speech is relevant and wrong to any extent. Please search for an English or German one or, if you translate it at least this time, a Polish one. I can't imagine that your conspircacy theories are not original research and irrelevant to the article again.NightBeAsT 17:13, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Good we shall mention that some history books continue to present nationalist worldview in Germany and consider the treaty that created Poland a humiliation to German state.
--Molobo 23:14, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Which history books? Any names? Any reliable sources supporting your allegations? Anything not original reasearch based on self-righteous conclusion-jumping? Have you actually ever read ANY German history book at all???NightBeAsT 00:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, actually I never said any German history book describe the loss of German conquest from other nations as "humiliations for Germany". It's interesting to know that you partially read what I write, yet you're still jumping to self-righteous conclusions and misread.NightBeAsT 13:58, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

text: "Pawelka was right"
Thanks for showing your true colours.I however do not consider naming uprising of Polish population in Silesia an attack from Poland, nor do I consider right accusing Poles of conducting atrocities in line of Hitler's propaganda "right".
--Molobo 23:14, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

text: So he was wrong? Was it not a "Diktat" according to the definition of the word? Please that jumping to conclusions. As for the rest, I didn't really get what you mean. I don't suppose you could fill me in there, could you?NightBeAsT 17:13, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

text: "'Pawelka was right' Thanks for showing your true colours"? Why are you misqoting me? I said "from the definition of the word Pawelka was right", which doesn't suggest that I'd think he's right in general. Please keep these self-righteous hasty conclusions for yourself.NightBeAsT 00:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, I disagree with anti-polonistic statements but I've yet to see any. And I see a reason not to libel people and that's "what was included before about his speech".NightBeAsT 13:58, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: He also accuses Polish liberation of atrocities and names it aggression

message: "The highlights of this extremely popular program are insulting "jokes" about Poles, Polish culture and Poland" Firstly his job is to make fun. Secondly, his jokes and sarcasm are about almost everything. How high is the percentage of them connected to Poland? Thirdly, why should jokes connected to Poland be the highlight of the show?NightBeAsT
:Another website also mentioned that he jokes about Italians all being in the Mafia... It sounds like he's just trying to be funny. However, it's important to note here that the German police website even goes as far to warn that telling "xenophobic jokes" is a warning sign of "right-wing extremism" . Bayerischermann 04:28, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harald Schmidt 

message: "also cashes in on a clear anti-Polish bias, with jokes on the Polish language and cleaners (see below)" where is this below, where is the source? Also, the conspiracy theory is ridiculous: not only does Prussia stand for so many other things but also the given source of Perlentaucher quoted him as only calling the idea a "courageous" one. I want the sentence "actively supported a motion to reanimate name the name of "Preußen" (Prussia) for a new German federal state" verified.NightBeAsT 18:53, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Florian Illies 

message: "German left-wing media show an anti-Polish bias" source? Is that critical, not necessarily anti-polonistic remark, in taz supposed to justify that bias throughout the left-wing media?NightBeAsT
:It seems to make sense to me that some of the anti-war crowd in Germany would perhaps hold a grude against Poland for joining the US in Iraq. Bayerischermann 04:31, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't get it. Anything that could remotely be construed as critical is considered to be said due to an anti-Polish bias. The normal rules of argument and reason don't apply here. --Moritz 14:55, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I do now. I agree with you. It's not really anti-Polish, it's anti-war, for the most part. 'However', that comment in taz is anti-Polish. That deserves to be mentioned, but not in the way it currently is (adjust it so that it doesn't say that all the left-wing media is anti-Polish). Bayerischermann 21:12, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  German left-wing media "anti-Polish"? 

message: "Antipolish sentiment has grown in that country" Sounds like it was based on a statistic ... but is unfortunately made up.. Source? NightBeAsT 16:21, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  France increasingly "anti-Polish"? 

message: Please provide sources for the content. Alx-pl D 21:46, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  anti-Polonism in Russia