Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Northern Ireland flag usage/Archive 2

message: Now that every user has placed a statement on this page, I think we can now move on with mediation.  Due to the large number of participants in this discussion, I think that it would be best for each side to select a spokesperson.  We will need one person who supports the usage of the Ulster Banner, and one person who opposes it.  If each side could decide on a spokesperson, it would be appreciated, and we will continue from there.  Thanks.  --דניאל - Dantheman531 23:56, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you propose each side of this debate select one editor to represent them.--padraig 00:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm happy to represent those in favour of using flag images Astrotrain 23:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I'am happy to represent those against the misuse of the Ulster Banner, if nobody else wants to do so.--Padraig 19:57, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

text: My main desire was to bring this back to a civilised discussion, as it now shows signs of becoming, and I'm not particularly behind either camp.  That said, between them, Astrotrain and Padraig do represent the vast majority of my views, and I'm happy to support a consensus arrived between the two of them (or between two other spokespeople for the two camps).  — ras52 23:26, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't like the idea of 'camps' particularly either. But I'm more than happy for Astrotrain to speak on my behalf, as long as if I disagree with something I can that that clear? Biofoundationsoflanguage 15:39, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be ok.  Just remember that the point of having spokespeople is so that everybody isn't trying to compromise at the same time.  You can clear things up if you disagree with them, but I will be able to reference your opinion from the statement that you left above.  I will also be sure to alert all involved parties before a final decision is made.  --דניאל - Dantheman531 22:24, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

text: OK- now we can move forward. I suggest looking at the use of the flag in flag articles first (such as List of British flags, List of Northern Irish flags, Template:UKFlags etc. Astrotrain 15:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it is now the time to move forward with this mediation.  Unfortunately, I will not be available again until Sunday or Monday.  I think we should begin then.  I have moved all of the parties' statements to this page's archive.  Everything can be accessed there.  I hope that this can be resolved to everybody's satisfaction, and I encourage the people who are not named spokespeople to keep this page watchlisted and to follow this discussion as it progresses.  --דניאל - Dantheman531 00:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Continuing with Mediation 

message: Flag	Date	Use                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     	Description                                                                                                                            	Status
    	    	Northern Ireland does not currently have a de jure National flaghttp://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200607/ldhansrd/text/70118w0002.htm other than the Union Flag - the former Government of Northern Ireland banner, the Ulster Banner, is still in use by international sporting organisations, (eg FIFA FIFA- Northern Ireland, UEFA UEFA- Northern Ireland, and the Commonwealth Games Commonwealth Games- Northern Ireland) and can be seen in the Historical flags section.	A red cross on a white field with a red hand, on a six pointed white star, crowned (representing the six counties in Northern Ireland).	The Ulster Banner ceased to officially exist with the passing of the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973 which dissolved the Parliament of Northern Ireland, Not recognised by the British government or the Northern Ireland Assembly
:which provides a link to the Ulster banner in the historical flags section of the article, the Union Flag is the only flag of Northern Ireland today.--Padraig 15:13, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you state which part you think is POV? The problem with your version is that it talks about a flag without showing the flag in question. This is an article about flags, no other section do we talk about a flag that is not shown, except in cases where no image is avaliable on Wikipedia. Astrotrain 15:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is POV, well to start with the Ulster Banner was never the flag of Northern Ireland even during the period 1953-72, it was solely used as a banner to represent the former government as a Governmental Banner not the state, you are now trying to protray as a former flag of that state, also it is not an un-official flag as it was never official to start with outside of its role as a government banner.  The arguement you make of talking about the flag but not showing it, that is false the first section shows the official flag the Union Flag, it explains the status of the former governmental banner and provides a link to the Historical flag section, Which shows the flag image and details of its design and former useage.
Flag	Date       	Use                                                                                                                                                                                                              	Description
    	1953 - 1972	The Ulster Banner - Former Government of Northern Ireland between (1953-1972) and still used to represent Northern Ireland in sporting events in which Northern Ireland competes and by many as a de facto banner	A red cross on a white field defaced with a red hand, crowned on a six pointed white star (representing the six counties in Northern Ireland).
--Padraig 16:46, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

text:  Once possible compromise would be to state "it is an unofficial flag" rather than "the"? Astrotrain 16:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

text: As usual you ignore fact, the banner was a government banner the government it represented was abolished under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973, the current government of Northern Ireland refuses to even recognise it existance, therefore to protray the banner along with the other British National flags is incorrect and POV pushing.  The banner is historical along with the government that used it.  Its continued use by sports bodies dosen't give it any status, most Unionists in Northern Ireland today see the banner as associated with Loyalist parliamilitary extremist groups, and therefore use the Union Flag, none of the Unionist political parties use it or brought its use up in the Assembly debates on the use of flags prior to the legistation on flags being implemented in 2000, or its amendment in 2002.--Padraig 17:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Continued use by sporting bodies (ie in the present day) surely indicates that is not historical. The other flags in the historical section are no longer used at all. In any case it is not my POV to list the flag there- see for example World Flags Database which lists the flag alongside the other UK subdivision flags. Astrotrain 08:14, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Astrotrain why do you keep bringing up the World Flags Database, that is not an Authority it is a commercial site that sells flags.  As for the use of the banner by some sports fans so what, when did sport fans decide what was the flag of a country, also on  the question of sport and the fans of the Northern Ireland Football team, sport in Northern Ireland is deeply divided, with Unionists supporting the Northern Ireland team and Nationalists support the Republic of Ireland National team.--Padraig 08:35, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  World Flag Database is a database produced by Graham Bartram, Chief Vexillologist of the Flag Institute. It is an authoritive source to quote for flags in a flag article. Astrotrain 08:40, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Its a commercial site, it also provides a link to his book 'British Flags & Emblems'  where he shows the flags of England, Scotland and Wales with details on them, for Northern Ireland it states Northern Ireland is currently without a National flag, pending a new design to mark the resumpation of self-rule. So according to your claimed authoritive source, the Ulster Banner is not not included as a British National flag, and no National flag exists for Northern Ireland.--Padraig 09:12, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

text: The subdivision page  clearly shows the Northern Ireland flag, noting its unofficial status and use by Unionists and sport. We have already established the lack of central government use, and it may well be likely that the Nothern Ireland Assembly design a new national flag. However, since they have not, the current unofficial flag is still used in international situations. Displaying that image with a note on status does not impact on POV. Astrotrain 09:23, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Incorrect, displaying that image in a list of National Flags gives the impression that it is the Flag of Northern Ireland, which it isn't, so it is WP:OR and not allowed.  Your pushing a political pro-Unionist POV by doing so, Wikipedia is an encyclopeadia that should only show WP:V information, not the political view of editors.--Padraig 09:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

text:  Displaying images is not WP:OR as the page clearly explains and sources have been provided. The fact is that is it is a flag and is used today. I am not promoting any POV. I am trying to come up with compromises and gain consensus, I suggest you learn to compromise to gain a consesus solution to solve the argument. Astrotrain 12:11, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Displaying a image as the Northern Ireland flag when it is clearly not, in articles and templates dealing with Northern Ireland today is clearly against WP:OR, WP:V and WP:POV.  There is no problem with using the image on articles dealing with Northern Ireland during the period 1921-1972 as I have done here and here, or in articles relating to sport in which Northern Ireland play as a national team such as the Commonwealth Games or International Football.  As for compromise, your idea of compromise is that we ignore fact and allow you to use the image where it not appropiate.--Padraig 12:32, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Padraig, there is nothing in WP:OR, WP:V and WP:POV that says the flag must have official basis in law.  You're just repeating yourself endlessly now.  The overwhelming majority of people at the straw poll are voting for the use of the flag, I think it's time for you to pipe down.  The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 13:09, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It dosen't matter what yous vote for on your straw poll, any inclusion of the Ulster Banner in a table representing Northern Ireland can be be removed, none of yous have provide any sources to support it inclusion, whereas there is loads of sources to support it removal in accordance to WP policy.  WP isn't a political soapbox.--Padraig 13:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Britannica isn't a good enough source for 'yous'?   The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 15:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Encyclopdeia Britannica says: According to British tradition, a coat of arms or flag is granted to the government of a territory, not to the people residing there. Therefore, when the government of Northern Ireland was disbanded in March 1972, its arms and flag officially disappeared; however, the flag continues to be used by groups (such as sports teams) representing the territory in an unofficial manner. so trying to use the flag to represent Northern Ireland today is WP:OR, WP:POV and fails WP:V.--Padraig 17:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

text:  Placing an image with a description and sources is not POV. We need a compromise solution to get consensus and stop the edit wars. As Pat points out, there are many reputable sources. Try doing a google images search on Flag of Northern Ireland to find sources. Astrotrain 17:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Placing a false image is POV and OR, most editors and readers will just see the image an either ignore or not read the discription, what are these reputable sources that say the flag is used to represent Northern Ireland today outside of sport, you haven't provided any.--Padraig 17:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'll ask Dan to give a view on the POV and OR issue you raise. I fail to see how using an image is OR and giving a description of use to sources is POV. Astrotrain 18:09, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The question is about whether this flag should appear next to the word Northern Ireland on the Wikipedia article.  Seeing as the flag appears next to the word Northern Ireland on Britannica, it is quite clearly verifiably OK to do so and not POV.  It is you (Padraig) who are engaged in WP:OR, drawing your own conclusions from the law.  I've noticed you fanatically removing this flag for several months now - it seems to me you are the one here enforcing your WP:POV.  The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 18:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Red Hat, I come from Northern Ireland and the flag is not the flag of my Country, and never was, so I do object to its use in Wikipedia as representing Northern Ireland today, I have no problem with its use in sports articles when Northern Ireland play as a team and the team used the symbol, or in articles dealing with the history or politics of Northern Ireland between 1922-1972 as it was a banner (1953-72) of the devolved government of that period, and I have used it on wikipedia in those circumstances myself.  But to use it on articles as the flag of Northern Ireland today is POV and incorrect, this is supposed to be a factual encyclopeadia therefore it shouldn't present false information to appease some editors using the issue as a political soapbox.--Padraig 18:42, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "It's not the flag of my country so WP can't use it because I object to it"?  What's that if it's not POV, in the face of Britannica's use of it, despite its unofficial status?  The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 19:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No that is stating the fact of the issue, it is not the flag of Northern Ireland, it is not even recognised by the British Government or the Northern Ireland Assembly.  But some editors think we should ignore that.--Padraig 19:10, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No they don't, they have suggested the very reasonable compromise of a footnote explaining the situation.  The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 19:24, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Surley if we can agree on the flags, UK article- it will be easier to reach consensus on the others? Astrotrain 20:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Northern Ireland

message: Proposed compromise for List of British flags. I think we can reference all of the text based on sources discussed above. The image is shown, along with a neutral description.
Flag	Date                                             	Use                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  	Description                                                                                                                            	Status
    	Official from 1953 to 1973, unofficial thereafter	There is no official flag for Northern Ireland- the British Government and the Northern Irish Executive use the Union Flag. The Ulster Banner, the former official flag, is still used in an unofficial capacity, particuarly in international sports competitions, and by Unionists.	A red cross on a white field with a red hand, on a six pointed white star, crowned (representing the six counties in Northern Ireland).	Unofficial
Astrotrain 20:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would this be placed in the historical section? GoodDay 20:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  No- because it is not historical- it is still used. Astrotrain 20:25, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And you want to use that were in the 'Current National Flags' section, not acceptable, its not a National flag, and between 1953 to 1972 it was a governmental banner not a national flag.--Padraig 20:25, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Politcally, the UB is a defunct flag. GoodDay 20:28, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  So if we changed the header from "national flag" to "Flags in the constituent countries" would that be acceptable? Astrotrain 20:30, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Failing that why don't we have it under this current national flags section, but in a sub-section? -- Jza84 · (talk) 20:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah that would also work. Good idea. Astrotrain 20:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I already suggested the Historical flag section could be moved closer to the top of the article.--Padraig 20:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  As the flag is still used unofficially, it cannot be historical. Astrotrain 20:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What's it gonna be? Historical flag a seperate section or a sub-section of National flags. GoodDay 20:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

text: A seperate section is needed for the constituent countries, so I think Jza84's suggestion works well. This way the situation can be explained (ie no longer official and now unofficial). Astrotrain 20:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Astrotrain use in some sports dosen't count, it is Historial as the Banner of the Former government. It is in the section it belongs. It was never a official National Flag, so it can't claimed to be an un-official one now.--Padraig 20:46, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  So why do you want to put it in an historic national flag section , if it never was an historic flag? The fact is the flag is used, so it is not historic. None of the other flags in the historic section are currently used in any capacity and all of them have been superceded by replacements. As the Ulster Banner is still used, it cannot be classed as historic. Jza84 has proposed a useful compromise which I think is acceptable- that way it is not in a national flag section which is your only objection. Astrotrain 20:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The UB was never the official flag of NI saying it is unofficial now implys it was at one stage official.BigDunc 20:57, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I object to you trying to give a status to this flag it dosen't have which the Unionist Politicans in Northern Ireland don't even claim it has, the flag is Historical just as the government it belonged to is.--Padraig 21:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

text: At this point, I'll accept anything to end the dispute. GoodDay 22:37, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Furthermore, can we please attribute a source to every statement in these boxes please? Per WP:V? -- Jza84 · (talk) 22:41, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not an un-official flag as it was never an official one to start with, and it can't go into the Current National Flag. The article as it stands is correct.--Padraig 23:05, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Yous are all forgetting that the Official national Flag is the Union Flag, and that is what should be used.--Padraig 23:10, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Unofficial" doesn't imply that it was ever previously official — that would be a very odd definition of "unofficial".  Just consider the scores of "unofficial" websites for people and places, or the description of "On Ilkley Moor baht 'at" as the "unofficial" "national" anthem of Yorkshire.  None of these have ever been official.  — ras52 23:21, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why should we replace a official flag with one thats not, one that fails WP:V and WP:FLAGS, I have no interest in wasting my time on this, the compromise I put forward is in line with WP:V and supported by multiple sources, I see no reason why a small number of edit warriors should be allowed to ignore WP Policies that every other editor has to follow.--Padraig 23:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Let us step back a little then. It seems we were coming to an agreement prior to these boxes being posted. Am I right in thinking that we were working on something along structure and headings, with Northern Ireland being treated as a special case from the other constituent countries on List of British flags? -- Jza84 · (talk) 23:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I think Dan's version and Ras' slight variant are acceptable. It avoids the phrase "national flag" that Padraig objects to, and the language is completely neutral. This could go in a constituent country section on the List of British flags article, and then we can move on and discuss the other articles. Astrotrain 18:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Astrotrain you seem to be under a misconception here, I have no intention of discussing each individual article or template, on the issue.  The Ulster Banner cannot go in any constituent country section of List of British Flags, as it is not the flag of Northern Ireland or is it a home nation flag of any part of the UK.--Padraig 19:26, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Astrotrain it had been pointed out to you umpteen times that the Ulster Banner is not to be used to represent NI unless it relates to sport or NI during the period 1921—1973 :template:UKFlags covers neither of those --Barryob  Vigeur de dessus 20:41, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you care to list them.--Padraig 22:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Northern Ireland

message: ====To identify sports teams or individual athletes====
It is acceptable to use the Ulster Banner to identify sports teams where Northern Ireland competes as a distinct team, separate from England, Scotland, Wales and perhaps the Republic of Ireland, or to identify individual athletes from Northern Ireland in sports where each of the four UK constituent countries are seperated.  The best example of this is the Northern Ireland national football team, and many football articles use Template:Fb for the following:
: or  → 
Another common example is the Commonwealth Games team.  For example, the flag appears next to Wayne McCullough's name on Boxing at the 1990 Commonwealth Games.  On the Wayne McCullough article itself, the flag is used in the medal infobox to state that he competed for Northern Ireland at those Games.  This medal box is unusual (and interesting) because it also shows that he competed for Ireland instead of Great Britain at the Olympics.
The sports and games in which Northern Ireland competes as a team, or which individual competitors are shown as representing one of the four UK constituent countries, are:
* football (soccer)
* Commonwealth Games events
* netball — Use  or  for  on articles such as 2003 Netball World Championships.
* golf — Example: next to Rory McIlroy's name on 2007 Open Championship.
* snooker — Example: next to Alex Higgins name on Snooker world rankings 1982/1983.
* motor sport — Example: next to Adrian Archibald's name on 2007 Isle of Man TT.
* darts — Example: next to Mitchell Crooks name on 2001 BDO World Darts Championship.
There are several sports for which all Ireland teams compete.  For those sports, it is inappropriate to use either the Ulster Banner or the Irish Tricolour to represent the team.  Alternate flags are used as follows:
* rugby union — Per Wikipedia:WikiProject Rugby union convention, use :Image:Flag of Ireland rugby.svg.  The actual flag used by the Irish Rugby Football Union looks more like :Image:Irelands Rugby Flag.svg, but this image is likely a copyright violation, and therefore not used. Use  or  for .
* rugby league — Per Wikipedia:WikiProject Rugby league convention, use :Image:Four Provinces Flag.svg.  Use  or  for .
* field hockey — Use :Image:Flag of Ireland hockey team.svg.  Use  or  for .
* ice hockey — Per Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice hockey convention, also uses the rugby "shamrock flag".  Use  or  for .
* cricket — Use :Image:Flag of Ireland cricket team.svg.  Use  or  for .
* curling — Also uses the four provinces flag.
====To identify cities, towns, or other geographic locations====
The Ulster Banner should not be used to identify locations in Northern Ireland, or the country itself, such as in the following instances:
* Birth and/or death locations for any biographic article infobox.  (This situation is already described in Wikipedia:Manual of style (flags) but it is worth repeating here.)
* Lists of twin towns, for the articles listed in List of twin towns and sister cities in the United Kingdom#Northern Ireland.  It is a fairly common style for flag icons to be used in town articles (e.g. Bonn#Twin towns), and it is preferable to only use the top-level national flag (i.e. the flag of the UK) for all UK places.  For example, use:
** Belfast, Northern Ireland, United Kingdomnot  Belfast, Northern Ireland
** London, England, United Kingdomnot  London, England
** Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdomnot  Glasgow, Scotland
* Lists of airline destinations, such as Wizz Air destinations (complete set of lists in :Category:Airline destinations).  Use the UK as the country grouping for all airports.
* Lists of mountains, islands, etc. such as List of mountains of the British Isles by relative height or List of islands by name (C)
* Lists of event locations (e.g. sport tournaments or races), such as World Amateur Boxing Championships (with respect to the 2001 event in Belfast) or 1949 Grand Prix motorcycle racing season (with respect to the Ulster Grand Prix).
====To identify location of origin====
The Ulster Banner should not be used to identify Northern Ireland as the location of origin in the following instances:
* Television programs (e.g. using the country parameter of Template:Infobox Television) such as Patrick Kielty Almost Live, produced by BBC Northern Ireland.
* Musicians (e.g. using the Origin parameter of Template:Infobox Musical artist), such as Tracer AMC.  Also do not use the flag for lists such as List of post-rock bands.  Use the UK flag if any flag must be used.
::Comment I see no problem with the above comments.--Padraig (talk) 05:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Flag icon usage

message: The Ulster Banner should not be used to identify Northern Ireland as the location of origin in the following instances:
* Television programs (e.g. using the country parameter of Template:Infobox Television) such as Patrick Kielty Almost Live, produced by BBC Northern Ireland.
* Musicians (e.g. using the Origin parameter of Template:Infobox Musical artist), such as Tracer AMC.  Also do not use the flag for lists such as List of post-rock bands.  Use the UK flag if any flag must be used.
::Comment I see no problem with the above comments.--Padraig (talk) 05:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: To identify location of origin

message: By the way, in regards to the image name for the Ulster banner here on wikipedia, a new image location on the Commons has been created for it:. The ulster banner only has about 200(thats a rough guess) instances of it being used here on wikipedia, one or two people could easily change them all to a new location such as banner.png over the course of 2 or 3 days(if that). Fennessy (talk) 21:36, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's helpful, but it would have to be converted to SVG format before I will replace the image used by Template:Country data Northern Ireland.  Andrwsc (talk) 21:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't agree that should be used- there is no real evidence outside Wikipedia of that being the name for the flag- Red Hand Flag is more common for example than Ulster Banner. Perhaps Unofficial Flag of Northern Ireland would be acceptable per Britannica. Astrotrain (talk) 22:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  We were not discussing the name until now, so why would I comment on it. Yet again the same small band of editors think they can impose their own preferences without discussion. So much for mediation. Astrotrain (talk) 23:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No but it has been refered to by this name in practically every post. You never had a problem, now your switching gears yet again. Whats more it's entirely relevant to wikipedia, there's no need to place this problem in the hands of someone else when it can be resolved here. Fennessy (talk) 00:29, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I think all this discussion is moot.  Start with putting commons:Template:Move on  and get the discussion going there.  Andrwsc (talk) 22:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah thats probably a good idea. The most important thing now is to take forward your guidelines on usage, and end this dispute. Astrotrain (talk) 22:20, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: AStrotrain no guideline has been decided it is only a idea that would have to be agreed first.--Padraig (talk) 22:35, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

text: By definition, if it has been used in some sporting areas (as you agree), that means it is being used unofficially.  And if you've been paying attention, you'll see that absolutely nobody on this page has suggested that the flag has any official status, so I have no idea why you bring that point up.  Andrwsc (talk) 19:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ulster Banner on commons

message: I would like to add my view to this.  I am extremely annoyed to find that the User:CommonsDelinker has been used to change an image I placed on my personal user page IE:- :Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg to :Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg and draw me into an apparent edit war that is spilling over from the English Wikipedia.
This image name change has been done under the claim that the 1st image is an exact duplicate of the 2nd image. This is incorrect as the 1st image has been uploaded since 28 November 2005, by User:Dbenbenn who is a  Wiki Commons Bureaucrat, whilst the second has been created by a new user:- User:FalseXflag downloading the first image and re-uploading it, with a different name, two days ago on 28 November 2007, which technically makes the 2nd image the duplicated copy.  It appears that the uploader is involved in an edit war over the name/purpose of the image for his own personal POV reasons on the English wikipedia. 
To use User:CommonsDelinker to then change multiple user pages is a form of vandalism, as now many users with different political points of view around the world have been summarily forced to have this change of name forced on them. 
To also claim that the delete tag should be removed from :Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg on the grounds that the image was linked to hundreds of articles and templates, is also offensive, had the delinker not been used then the image would not exist on those articles/templates as claimed, having only existed under that name two days ago.  It should also be noted that many articles/templates have not been able to be changed, as the 1st image is used in many other countries version of Wikipedia. They were listed on the 1st image page, though an edit by User:Siebrand removed the list from view, though it still visible in the edit history here:- Edit history Image:Flag_of_Northern_Ireland.svg.  An attempt has been made to take a back door approach to having the image name changed, when it was opposed by other editors on the English Wikipedia; See:- Talk Page - Flag of Northern Ireland and .  
As a Yorkshireman I consider myself to be neutral over the name or correct affiliation of the image, however I am aware that whilst living in Northern Ireland in the early 60s, and then working in the ambulance service there in the early 70s, the flag was flown on NI Government buildings.  My usage of this particular image is to show the Flag that was in use at the time I worked there, I do not wish it to be seen as a link or an affiliation with any particular political party or group, of which I have none!
I am also concerned over the timing of the sudden appearance of the 'New User' User:FalseXflag, who re-uploaded the original image with the new name having only done 3 edit contributions then disappearing to be followed up by other anon editors; See:- of Northern Ireland.svg&action=history Revision history of "Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg" which brings to mind sock-puppet editing!
I have also noted that   has now edited my user page to undo my revert of the User:CommonsDelinker's change of image, in addition to changing many other articles and user pages, despite the fact no consensus to do so has been agreed.  This again I consider to be vandalism of my user page, as may the other editors whose pages he has edited.  Some may consider it to be a form of bullying to have another editors POV  forced on them!
Perhaps the best way to solve this hostile edit warring and blatant expression of POV's would be to first reverse the User:CommonsDelinker edits of:- :Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg, then rename the image to ' :Flag of Northern Ireland (1953-1973).svg '. After which the Commons delinker can run through all wiki's to change the links and then finally delete both :Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg and :Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg.  Richard Harvey 02:07, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would suggest posting this to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.  Possibly, the remedies at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Probation for disruptive editors might apply.  Andrwsc 04:25, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Your incorrect, firstly the Flag of Northern Ireland.svg was incorrectly named, as it was not and never was the flag of northern Ireland, this was corrected by uploading the image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg which was then added to the County Date template to replace the other image, other instances where also updated by myself and other editors, it was this that replaced the majority of the image in Wikipedia not the commondelinker bot.--Padraig 22:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment