Talk:Periyar River

message: Why does Periyar redirect to the article on the river and not to the disambiguation page? Please stop the edit wars. There are better things to do in life and in wikipedia. ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε †αLҝ 08:33, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why not redirect to the disambiguation page?

message: Can anyone say, please, what PWD stands for? I'd like to copy edit this piece, and an unexpanded acronym shouldn't be present. Davy p 22:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tamil Nadu PWD 

message: The location of Sivagiri hills is Tamil Nadu. It is very sad that it is not mentioned anywhere. Page creator has to take this into account - Yutha  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yutha (talk • contribs) 19:09, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: "The river Periyar, the longest river of the state (PWD, 1974; CESS, 1984) is considered to be the life line of Central Kerala. It originates from the Sivagiri peaks (1800m MSL) of Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu" i took it from reference. We have to give facts, change the origin from kerala to tamilnadu. --Kurumban (talk) 00:02, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Sivagiri Hills

message: Does anyone have a source for an estimate of the size of the population in Tamil Nadu whose water depends on the Periyar? Davy p 22:46, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: links to malayalam and spanish wiki are not shown though it is in the article. --202.164.149.223 (talk) 07:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theni, Madurai and Ramanathapuram 

message: Can someone comes with a proof for the Interstate river claim for Periyar. It should be a credible proofs, otherwise I would ask administrators consider making Periyar as Interstate river as vandalism.
(talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 20:01, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Periyar river  - Interstate River? 

message: Previous edit by a user - "This is being wrongly edited earlier as kerala by vested interests." Users editing this article with illogic facts and violating Wiki policies. Administrators please have a look at this. --Nubin_wiki (talk) 03:18, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: Article reverted with explanation. Proof's for it's origin in Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu.
1: http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/biodiversity/documents/rivers.htm
2: http://www.indiawaterportal.org/sites/indiawaterportal.org/files/Joseph%20M.L.pdf
3: http://www.irenees.net/fr/fiches/analyse/fiche-analyse-633.html
Proof's for it's origin in Kerala.
1: http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/article2764198.ece
Any better proof's? Please discuss before changing Pearll's SunTALK 06:34, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: 
Ref 2 & 3: 
The river Periyar, the longest river of the state (PWD,1974; CESS,1984) is considered to 
be the life line of Central Kerala. It originates from the Sivagiri peaks (1800m MSL) of 
Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu. 
Google Map cant be had as a reference as the following reference's says otherwise
1: http://www.theweatherinindia.com/weather/Tamil_Nadu/Sivagiri_Malai
2: http://www.getamap.net/maps/india/tamil_nadu/_sivagirimalai/
3: http://www.keralaindiavacation.com/kerala-tourist-destinations/periyar-kerala.html
4: http://www.holiday-packagesindia.com/india-vacations/index.html
5: http://tripsguru.com/Rivers/Periyar.html
Please discuss here before replacing the multiple references with the google map. Pearll's SunTALK 12:46, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article reverted with explanation. Please discuss before changing. 

message: ;Proof's for it's origin in Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu.
# http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/biodiversity/documents/rivers.htm
# http://www.indiawaterportal.org/sites/indiawaterportal.org/files/Joseph%20M.L.pdf
# http://www.irenees.net/fr/fiches/analyse/fiche-analyse-633.html
Please include your references if you think the rivers location is disputed. Pearll's SunTALK 02:06, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The citation only states that the river originates from "Sivajini Hills" which could have been mistaken for "sivagiri malai/hills" (both  sounds similar and could easily be mistaken for the other) also "Sivajini Hills" pulls no result in any search engine but  "sivagiri malai/hills" pulls About 192,000 results in google search engines  and around 11,000 results in Yahoo search engine [ http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oGdUg0PA1PTwkA67il87UF?p=sivagiri%20malai&fr=sfp ], Also the reference fails to confirm where the hills are located, The state Kerala mentioned is only for the river flowing and not originating, but the current available multiple reference also say it originates in Tamilnadu. Please discuss and get to a consensus and then apply the same to the article. Pearll's SunTALK 07:39, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, thanks for your comment, i have added more reliable sources to prove that Sivagiri is located in Tirunelveli Tamil NaduPearll's SunTALK 14:44, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be a good idea to advertise this RFC on a geography noticeboard and WP:RSN or to alternatively ask for the reliability of your sources there and then link that discussion here (which ever suitable) so that there are no objections about your sources. --lTopGunl (talk) 02:27, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi thanks for your suggestions, it has already been posted on the Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography. It is yet to receive a reply. Also trying all possible means to figure this out with a map but still unable to find one.Pearll's SunTALK 04:31, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That notice board as actually the same as this RFC. You can also try Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geography & Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Maps. Good luck. --lTopGunl (talk) 09:41, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Hi, thanks once again. I have applied there today, i wish to get some assistance on the same, hope someone with more knowledge on these issues would help me find a suitable Map.Pearll's SunTALK 16:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Please show me a source where it says the source if the river is Kerala? Did you check the above supportive references?Pearll's SunTALK 16:14, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

text: *Pearl's Sun, you do not get your own way when something is being discussed. I will try to go through the sources later but right now your continued reverting is causing problems with other aspects of the article, as you have been made aware. - Sitush (talk) 16:08, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, i have edited it without disturbing the other aspects of the article. Pearll's SunTALK 16:21, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: And you should not have done. Please revert. - Sitush (talk) 16:24, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

text: And the reason? would you like me to change the rivers source back to Kerala with all the sources provided? Please change the lead after providing sources that say the the river originates from Kerala. Pearll's SunTALK 16:30, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason is because you do not get your own way. You are as aware as anyone that sources say different things and you are warring to keep your preferred version. If you are not careful, you will find yourself blocked from editing. - Sitush (talk) 16:34, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

text: Yes, The top 3 Sources point for its origin to be in Tamil Nadu, even if they say different things where do they say it originates from Kerala? And why would one get blocked without a reason? Please stop warning members of getting blocked without proper reasons. Pearll's SunTALK 16:43, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:Edit warring and even WP:3RR. Furthermore, we should show all points of view that are supported by reliable sources, not just your own personal preference. - Sitush (talk) 16:50, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest that you also read WP:OVERLINK, because that is something else which you have cocked up following my recent fixes. - Sitush (talk) 16:51, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

text: Yep, I am reaching the same conclusion as you but perhaps a little more slowly! The article needs an overhaul but I'm not sure whether I have the capability to do it. I'll try to take a look over the next few days. - Sitush (talk) 20:23, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks AshLin and Sitush for providing your comments, though i have added the necessary citations i would like to leave it to the experts to correct the articles  grammar and fix other mistakes. Regards. Pearll's SunTALK 08:27, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see my reply to your query in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Maps regarding the source of Periyar. Ashinpt (talk) 05:06, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let's discuss the rivers Origin. 

message: Which Sivagiri is being referred to in this source? The implication is that it is the one in Kerala because the source makes no mention of Tamil Nadu. Since it is unclear, it should probably not be used. - Sitush (talk) 16:39, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This source is not appropriate and should be removed. It is a synopsis of another source which we already use. - Sitush (talk) 16:48, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This article was in a constant IP vandalism so multiple references were added. if you find it wrong please remove it Pearll's SunTALK 16:52, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: No. You added it, so you remove it. It is your responsibility to ensure that your statements are verifiable using reliable sources etc. - Sitush (talk) 16:56, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sivagirimala 

message: ;B-Class 5-criteria checklist
*B1 (Referencing and citations ) = n
*B2 (Coverage and accuracy ) = n
*B3 (Structure ) = y
*B4 (Grammar and style ) = n
*B5 (Supporting materials ) = n
;Comments
* needs minimum one inline reference per paragraph.
* needs references for all vital facts, opinions, assertions.
* refs need to be cited properly, poor quality as of now. Strongly recommend that cite templates be used.
* coverage skewed & inadequate.
* structure not balanced and not covering all desireable content issues.
* needs copy-edit.
* needs diagram showing branching & dam locations.
* assessment=C class
AshLin (talk) 19:02, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: B Class assessment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I have been looking at the references we have for the source of the Periyar being in Kerala or in Tamil Nadu. Let's split them into different categories
=== Sources related to the Mullaperiyar dispute hearings in the Supreme Court of India ===
:We have some news articles from the proceedings of the Mullaperiyar hearings in the Supreme Court of India in 2013. Times of India and Janam TV cite Kerala counsel Harish Salve's statement that as per both Kerala and Tamil Nadu, Periyar originates in Kerala and the entire river lies only on Kerala. Salve is using this to argue that Periyar is an intra-state river. 
::
:From the Supreme Court's judgment on the Mullaperiyar issue, again we can see the State of Kerala raising the point that the Periyar originates in Kerala and flows entirely in its territory. At no point does Tamil Nadu deny Kerala's claims regarding the origin or the flow of the Periyar. Its only geographical claim is that a small part of Periyar's basin lies in Tamil Nadu. 
::
:One should also note that if any part of Periyar flowed through or touched the borders of Tamil Nadu, there would have been no dispute regarding its status as an inter-state river. The whole issue would have been moot. The only reason why there was a dispute regarding the status of Periyar as an inter-state or an intra-state river was precisely because of the existence of two competing set of facts that were brought forth by Kerala and Tamil Nadu during the Mullaperiyar hearings.
:# The Periyar originated in the state of Kerala and flowed entirely through the state of Kerala. This was admitted to / not denied or refuted by Tamil Nadu. 
:# A part of the basin of Periyar extended into Tamil Nadu. 
:To be clear, both statements can be true at the same time. An international analogy would be the river Mississippi. It flows entirely through the United States, but a part of its basin extends into Canada.
:Kerala wanted the definition of inter-state river to be according to the flow of the river only. Tamil Nadu wanted it to be based on the extent of the entire basin. In its judgment, the Supreme Court sided with Tamil Nadu. It declared Periyar to be an inter-state river stating that:
::
::
::
:In other words, since Kerala had in previous proceedings pleaded on the grounds that Periyar was an inter-state river, raising the fact that Periyar flows entirely through Kerala was not enough. Kerala had to produce more substantive arguments to prove Periyar was not an inter-state river. 
:The Supreme Court, however, made it clear that Tamil Nadu's contention that the two states - Kerala and Tamil Nadu - are riparian states is not true as a riparian state would have land abutting the river.
::
=== Other sources putting origin in Kerala ===
Apart from the sources with the State of Kerala asserting that the Periyar originates in Kerala, we have the following sources for a Kerala origin.
:The Central Ground Water Board's Ground Water Information Booklet of Idukki District states
::
:So here we have a source from the Central Government of India putting the origin of Periyar along the southeastern border of Idukki district, Kerala.
:Kerala Tourism's page on the Periyar Tiger Reserve states
::
:Here we have a source from the State government of Kerala's Tourism department, stating that the Periyar originates within the Periyar Tiger Reserve, a reserve that lies completely within the boundaries of Kerala.
:A third source for the origin of the Periyar is from Kerala Forest Research Institute (KFRI), one of the R&D centers of the State of Kerala, which is also a part of the Kerala State Council for Science, Technology and Environment (KSCSTE). It states
::
:Therefore, here we have a report from an government of Kerala entity stating the origin of Periyar from a particular peak - Chokkampetti Mala - which is in the Periyar Tiger Reserve, a reserve that lies completely within Kerala.
:Another source for the origin of Periyar is from the lecture of Dr. Sankar S, a former scientist from KFRI, he had given at a UGC sponsored seminar on The Western Ghats in February 2013. He states
::
:Again, we have the mention of the same peak as the origin of Periyar.
:Yet another source for the origin of Periyar is a PhD thesis submitted by Minimol K. C. at the Mahatma Gandhi University. She states
::
::
: We see the same peak - Chokkampatti Mala - being mentioned here as the source.
:Ramaswamy R. Iyer, former Union Water Resources Secretary and the architect of the country's first National Water Policy, states 
::
=== Other sources putting origin in Tamil Nadu ===
Sources pointing to a Tamil Nadu origin are mostly a synopsis of another source (a report by M L Joseph) which looks to be the first place where this claim was made. M L Joseph's report states:
:
The above statement is used verbatim in a second source - irenees.net - which lists M L Joseph's report as a reference.
A third source, a PhD thesis by Balamurugan R at the Anna University, also uses the exact same statement shown above, but it does no show M L Joseph's report as a reference. It repeats the same mistake made by M L Joseph stating Periyar's length to be 300km.
In other words, the only source explicitly stating Periyar's origin to be in Tamil Nadu is M L Joseph's report. The others are simply refering to M L Joseph's report.
None of the sources pointing to a Tamil Nadu origin come from any government or official source from the State of Tamil Nadu. During the Mullaperiyar hearings, Tamil Nadu did not refute Kerala's assertions regarding the origin and path of the Periyar. The only geographical claim that Tamil Nadu makes is that a part of the basin of Periyar lies in their state, something Kerala has not denied. If any part of Periyar even touched the state of Tamil Nadu, there would have been no dispute regarding the status of the river as an inter-state river as Tamil Nadu would have simply refuted Kerala's claim and asserted that a part of the Periyar touches Tamil Nadu.
=== Analysis of sources ===
==== Summary for Kerala origin ====
#In the Supreme Court hearings, 
##Kerala asserted the origin and the entire path of Periyar was in Kerala. Tamil Nadu did not refute/ did admit to Kerala's assertions on the origin and path of the Periyar.
##Tamil Nadu's only claim to Periyar was that part of the basin of Periyar extended into Tamil Nadu.
#Based on the above two points, Supreme Court said Tamil Nadu cannot claim to be a riparian state since no part of Tamil Nadu abutted the Periyar. However, it declared Periyar as an inter-state river as the fact that a small portion of the basin of the river extended into Tamil Nadu was enough for a river to be inter-state. 
#Ramaswamy R. Iyer, former Union Water Resources Secretary and the architect of the country's first National Water Policy, states the the Periyar originates and flows only in Kerala.
#Central Ground Water Board, a central government agency, states that the Periyar originates at the south-eastern border of Idukki district, Kerala.
#Kerala Tourism states that the Periyar originates in the forests of the Periyar Tiger Reserve, a reserve that lies entirely in Kerala.
#Kerala Forest Research Institute, a state government R&D centre, states that Periyar originates from Chokkampatti Mala within the Periyar Tiger Reserve.
#S. Sankar, a former scientist at KFRI, states that the Periyar originates from Chokkampatti Mala.
#Minimol K.C., in her thesis at the Mahatma Gandhi University, states that the Periyar originates from Chokkampatti Mala in the Periyar Tiger Reserve.
==== Summary for Tamil Nadu origin ====
#M L Joseph, in his report states that Periyar originates in the Sivagiri peaks of Sundaramala, Tamil Nadu.
#A report on irenees.net uses M L Joseph as a reference and states the same claim verbatim.
#Balamurugan R, in his thesis at Anna University, states M L Joseph's claim verbatim.
==== Conclusions ====
Most of the claims for a Kerala origin are from the state of Kerala, Central govt or state govt agencies or persons linked to the central or state govt agencies. None of the claims of a Tamil Nadu origin are from the state of Tamil Nadu or from any person or agency linked to the central or state governments. 
The most that Tamil Nadu has claimed is that a part of the Periyar basin extends into its territory and this makes the river inter-state. This, however, does not prove that origin lies in Tamil Nadu. To claim that it does is WP:SYNTHESIS.
The sources pointing to the origin in Kerala appear to be far more authoritative, with most of them coming from government, current or ex government officials or government agencies. -- Qcrepku1 (talk) 04:08, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of the river 

message: ==== Summary for Kerala origin ====
#In the Supreme Court hearings, 
##Kerala asserted the origin and the entire path of Periyar was in Kerala. Tamil Nadu did not refute/ did admit to Kerala's assertions on the origin and path of the Periyar.
##Tamil Nadu's only claim to Periyar was that part of the basin of Periyar extended into Tamil Nadu.
#Based on the above two points, Supreme Court said Tamil Nadu cannot claim to be a riparian state since no part of Tamil Nadu abutted the Periyar. However, it declared Periyar as an inter-state river as the fact that a small portion of the basin of the river extended into Tamil Nadu was enough for a river to be inter-state. 
#Ramaswamy R. Iyer, former Union Water Resources Secretary and the architect of the country's first National Water Policy, states the the Periyar originates and flows only in Kerala.
#Central Ground Water Board, a central government agency, states that the Periyar originates at the south-eastern border of Idukki district, Kerala.
#Kerala Tourism states that the Periyar originates in the forests of the Periyar Tiger Reserve, a reserve that lies entirely in Kerala.
#Kerala Forest Research Institute, a state government R&D centre, states that Periyar originates from Chokkampatti Mala within the Periyar Tiger Reserve.
#S. Sankar, a former scientist at KFRI, states that the Periyar originates from Chokkampatti Mala.
#Minimol K.C., in her thesis at the Mahatma Gandhi University, states that the Periyar originates from Chokkampatti Mala in the Periyar Tiger Reserve.
==== Summary for Tamil Nadu origin ====
#M L Joseph, in his report states that Periyar originates in the Sivagiri peaks of Sundaramala, Tamil Nadu.
#A report on irenees.net uses M L Joseph as a reference and states the same claim verbatim.
#Balamurugan R, in his thesis at Anna University, states M L Joseph's claim verbatim.
==== Conclusions ====
Most of the claims for a Kerala origin are from the state of Kerala, Central govt or state govt agencies or persons linked to the central or state govt agencies. None of the claims of a Tamil Nadu origin are from the state of Tamil Nadu or from any person or agency linked to the central or state governments. 
The most that Tamil Nadu has claimed is that a part of the Periyar basin extends into its territory and this makes the river inter-state. This, however, does not prove that origin lies in Tamil Nadu. To claim that it does is WP:SYNTHESIS.
The sources pointing to the origin in Kerala appear to be far more authoritative, with most of them coming from government, current or ex government officials or government agencies. -- Qcrepku1 (talk) 04:08, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Analysis of sources 

message: Most of the claims for a Kerala origin are from the state of Kerala, Central govt or state govt agencies or persons linked to the central or state govt agencies. None of the claims of a Tamil Nadu origin are from the state of Tamil Nadu or from any person or agency linked to the central or state governments. 
The most that Tamil Nadu has claimed is that a part of the Periyar basin extends into its territory and this makes the river inter-state. This, however, does not prove that origin lies in Tamil Nadu. To claim that it does is WP:SYNTHESIS.
The sources pointing to the origin in Kerala appear to be far more authoritative, with most of them coming from government, current or ex government officials or government agencies. -- Qcrepku1 (talk) 04:08, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conclusions 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 13:47, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Periyar (river) →  – all river articles are named as X River and not X (river) Venkat TL (talk) 13:13, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 27 August 2021 

message: The Cheraman Mosque is located near the end of the Periyar in Kodungalloor, but fairly far away from the river. Muslims do not believe that the proximity of a mosque to a holy river is special, or that things like rivers can even be holy. As such I have removed that paragraph from the 'religious significance' section.  Indielov (talk) 14:29, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cheraman?