Talk:Gaijin/Archive 1

message: I made a few significant edits to the introduction, so I wanted to explain my changes.  First, I wanted to emphasize that the article is primarily on gaikokujin rather than gaijin, something that was not all that clear.  I think we could still use a section that is specifically about the differences in nuance between gaikokujin and gaijin as the words are clearly different but related.  I can't help but think that this article would be extremely confusing to someone not familiar with the particular situation in Japan.
The other thing I did was add the second meaning of gaikokujin, which is "non-Japanese".  This definition can be found in most Japanese dictionaries (I looked in Kōjien and Daijirin) and kwami hints at it above.  It makes sense if you think about it, from the perspective of a Japanese person in Japan, a gaikokujin is both a foreigner and a non-Japanese by definition.
It should also be remembered that the Japanese themselves are gaikokujin when the meaning is taken to mean "foreigner" and the context is outside of Japan.  For example, a Japanese person living in Australia is a gaikokujin.
There was also a bit of bias that seemed to consider only white and Asian foreigners worthy of mention regarding gaijin--there are of course many other kinds of gai(koku)jin.  Again, it might be useful to explain the differences in usage between the generally formal uses of gaikokujin (which tends to be broader) versus the usually informal uses of gaijin (often narrower in scope). CES 03:27, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits to Intro 

message: Only reason the word "foreigner" warrant an article in English Wikipedia is "gaijin" controversy.  The PC section already dwarf the section which deal with "gaikokujin".  Let switch the title. Yoji Hajime
:I agree. Sekicho 19:59, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Let change the title of this article to Gaijin instead of Gaikokujin

message: Please register whoever you are and please go through the tutorial which clarify the editorial policy of Wikipedia.  Your use of wiki edit tools and somewhat excessive fragmentation of this section are making this discussion unnecessarly difficult to follow for others. Aside from your unregistered status, the fact that you are calling me "the editor" and your lack of understanding of the meaning of NPOV and "original" research indicates that you are quite new to this site. For example, I did not write the section which says "Gaijin (外人 lit: "outside person") is a separate but related word. It is an abbreviation of gaikokujin." You are attributing all the edits (which appear to offend you) to me.  I am not "the" editor" as you seems to think. Most of my insertion of generalised description of opinion is placed in counter to the previos edit of similar nature by someone else.  I also make some effort to insert the opposing opinion if it is absent.  Plus, your somewhat frequent name calling, making reference to myself as "provincial", "biased", "obduracy of the editor" all indicate that you are unaware of many etiquette of this site. I can give answer to all of the above objections. Your objection regarding American population is a genuine contribution.  However, some objection is due to your failiure to learn about Wikipedia.  At least, please register and make some effort to learn about Wikipedia. Until then I will not answear every one of your objections.  This page is not Wikipedia 101. Lastly, it appear that you cannot read Japanese especially kanji. Had it been the case, you would not have brought up Dr Tamamura, the professor of Tourism.  It appear that you used search engine in English only. Your reference of gaijin and Jap as two equivelant words also indicate that your understanding of Japanese is somewhat elementary. As of your beloved weblink, if you bothered to use Japanese-English dictionary or their online version in internet, it all translate gaijin (and gaikokujin) as foreinger. The reason someone (not "the editor") wrote "gaijin, an abbreviation of gaikokujin" without citation is that he or she expect anyone who contribute to this page to have access to such dictionary. He is not required to be an etymologist or linguist to do so. Here is a list of links of online dictionary. Please make use of it.  And for a time being, please do not make edit on the basis of your unsubstantiated claim.  Yoji Hajime
REPLY:  My apologies for the poor use of wiki edit tools and excessive fragmentation &c &c..  Yes, I am new to the wiki system, as you say.  Again, sorry.
But your assumption that I cannot read, write or speak Japanese is incorrect.  Your evidence, the citation of Dr Tamamura, I provided not because I couldn't read anything else, but because the site had his email address to make it easier for you to contact him.  And how else could I have understood the Ishihara press conference of Dec 22 I cited above if I can't understand Japanese?
And regardless of what the online dictionaries say, we are talking about the historical root of the word, not its present usage.  We need a historian's opinion here, not a dilletante's.  Again, check the source I provided.  You have constantly refused to do so, and then used that not only to justify reverting the document back and removing all subsequent debate not only about the origin of gaijin, but also the current debate which frames gaijin as a racist word.
Instead of trying to pass me off as one of those illiterate foreigners that the biased entry on the gaijin debate tries to castigate, why don't you take responsibility for your edits?  You reverted the document back.  The content is therefore your responsibility.  Don't evade it.  You mess with the contents, you are open for criticism for doing so.
:I wrote detailed long respose to your argument which I realised was stupid.  Fine fine, you are fluent in japanese and can read kanji. I'm happy for you.  You got full revert because the edit was based on reference which is not credible.  I will delete any edit on your part if it is based on that Dr Tamamura.  If you are unhappy with my unilateral action, please feel free to take the complain to the highest authority of this site.  Thanks to our "forum flaming", this page will be archived. Another "etiquett" you are not aware is that this place shouldn't be used like an internet forum.  I won't be back this page for a while so thing can be cooled.  So long. Yoji Hajime
Ok, let's cool down a bit here.  Yoji, cut newbies some slack ... I know that it took me a while to get used to the rules and etiquette of Wikipedia, so let's encourage new voices.  61, don't feel that you have to register (although it would be nice to call you something besides 61), but please do sign your posts on the talk page.  It makes an argument easier to follow. 
I think you both have good points here, let's see if we can work out a compromise to improve the article.  Some thoughts:
*With the addition of the political correctness section, I agree that this article should be at gaijin
*I will state up front that I do not know the etymological differences between gaijin and gaikokujin.  That being said, I'm highly skeptical if the only support for the argument that gaijin and gaikokujin have separate origins is from an old TV show.  Without more support, I think we should call gaijin a contraction of gaikokujin.  If more support can be found, let's mention both views ... the point of the article is not really about the etymology is it?
*The PC section is rambling and not very well structured ... I'm not really sure that we need the paragraph comparing gaijin to Asian (if the article is written well enough, the reader should be able to make his/her own comparison), the airport example, the Liberal/Conservative perspective, or the point on jingai.  It would be nice to clearly state the argument for why gaijin is not PC, then the counter-argument for why gaijin is PC and keep it short and sweet. CES 13:49, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 61.27.54.213