Talk:Gratin

message: i'm not convinced this is the same as scalloped potatoes.. i think scalloped potatoes are closer to Anna potatoes, so i've redirected it there. 81.168.22.81 (talk) 15:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have to agree, however Anna potatoes doesn't sound right either.  It's my understanding (I am not an expert) that scalloped potatoes while prepared similarly are ones cooked in a manner that the top layer of potatoes is exposed to direct heat which allows the edges of the potatoes to curl.  Au Gratin potatoes on the other hand have a layer of cheese or bread crumbs protecting the potatoes underneath from the direct heat.-- nicklinn (talk / contribs)  10:43, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Further research suggests my above comment is not the case and as such I retract it.  This dictionary definition reflects that.-- nicklinn (talk / contribs)  10:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  scalloped potatoes 

message: This article is little or nothing more than muddled nonsense. It does not even so much as respect the source material that it cites. It is a discredit to Wikipedia.
Yes, ThuranX, my first edit was here, during what you call a big argument.
Michael Grossman (talk) 07:12, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Above user shown ot be a sock of The Other hand. ThuranX (talk) 18:53, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

text: I removed this "with Béchamel sauce or Mornay sauce" from the intro as it's been suggested this is a particular type of gratin dish and not part of the general terminology. Could someone add it to the appropriate dish in the article section where it belongs? Merci. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:09, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You could have simply moved it down to the section on particular gratin dishes. We merged them all here, as you should recall. I'll do it.ThuranX (talk) 20:13, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I misworded my comment. I meant to say section not article. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:49, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggest Total Rewrite 

message: In haute cuisine, the method gratin requires a sauce duxelles. This is well documented by Escoffier and others. Forming a crust by adding a layer of breadcrumbs/butter/grated cheese is a quick method.
Gratins are not usually prepared in casseroles, they are usually prepared in shallow dishes with no lids, and such dishes are manufactured specially for the purpose (one is illustrated with avocado gratin). The food may be served in the same dish, but not necessarily.
The ingredients do not have to be sliced, and slicing would be specifically inappropriate in most cases.
I am not sure why factual details such as this need prior discussion, but here they are.
Often Stranger Than Fiction (talk) 09:27, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not unreasonable to expand the scope of an article like this beyond classic dishes. The term Gratin is in common use in a number of ways and the article - as someone who's only very recently come to this article - needs to reflect that I think. At the same time it needs to reflect the classic nature of the term and dishes such as pommes dauphinois, which it only does in part at present. I was going to have a go at editing it but then saw the recent history and discussion and decided I'd rather not get into something that is clearly contentious (although quite why a cooking term is so contentious I don't really see...) -- Blue Square Thing (talk) 10:20, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Often Stranger Than Fiction has been found to be yet another sock of The Other Hand, AKA Believe it or Not. case. As an editor circumventing a block, none of his contentious edits should been allowed to stand, as all edits are about pushing the same POV he initially used socks for and was blocked for. As well, he engages in rampant personal attacks on other editors, and has has accounts indef blocked for that. That, knowing this likely outcome, I allowed many of his edits to stand should have been enough. Instead, this apparently insane editor screamed and yelled that 'cream sauce' was wrong. Until two nights ago when this POV 'haute cuisine' set of edits readded the same information. This editor is not interested in improving the article, but instead, prefers to see how long he can have us chase our tails. Do not encourage or engage him any more. ThuranX (talk) 12:18, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ThuranX, I have attempted to be polite but I think it needs to be said, you are talking complete rubbish. Why am I a sock-puppet? Where in any article have I imposed POV? What is this about cream sauce and (referring to my talk page) "bigoted anti-American rhetoric"? Often Stranger Than Fiction (talk) 13:00, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

text: To be fair, both of your edits seem to be somewhat counter-productive and the whole article seems to suggest elements of POV at times. I'll see if I can take a look at a bunch of references over the weekend and put forward some suggestions for reworking some of the elements. In particular I have some concerns, given the French origin of the term and the specific re-direct of pommes dauphinois, of the relative amero-centricity of the article in a number of places. I trust that the views of a neutral party in what is clearly becoming an edit war will be respected? -- Blue Square Thing (talk) 13:51, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

text: The above is another message by the sockpuppet who continues to abuse editing privileges. Here, we see the logical fallacy known as Appeal to Special Knowledge. He claims to understand more than we do, so we should simply step aside and let him do what he wants. However, as i said, this is a Logical Fallacy, a distraction from the issues being debated. However, there really is no issue being debated here. What we have here is an editor who, on multiple pages, seeks to change the pages to reflect a European superiority to the USA, and who cannot help but contradict himself. He called for removal of 'sauces' from the article, insisting there's no sauces in Gratin. Later, he adds sauces. It's not about getting this article stable and right for this editor, it's about having control of the page, which is why he continues to sock, instead of sitting out his block and then bringing things to the talk page, as he's been asked multiple times on multiple account talk pages. ThuranX (talk) 01:40, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: With regard only to the "European superiority to the USA" point: this article is part of WP:FR and the term clearly derives from French so there is some justification for eliminating some of the more overtly amero-centric terms/pov being used currently. For example, the term broiled is used, yet if that term were wikilinked it would redirect to the page on grilling. We need balance not one or the other -- Blue Square Thing (talk) 09:35, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You'd need to review a wider ranger of this editor's many contributions on many socks to see it as I do. Any food he has edited has been changed to be of European origin and simply stolen by Americans. For example, according to him, Salisbury Steaks are just hamburgers perverted by americans, and hamburgers were invented in Hamburg, which is an OOOLLLD myth. Other pages show similar biases. It's a major POV push he's enacting across Wikipedia, apparently based on a single old cookbook he's got. And please note that in order to get his way, he is now invoking Arguments from SPecial Knowledge, the 'Trust me I'm smarter than you so I know what's good for you' argument. ThuranX (talk) 16:18, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've not looked at any other articles he's edited. I'm looking at this article and see aspects that I think can be improved. My response was to a specific point you seemed to be making about this article, nothing else :-) -- Blue Square Thing (talk) 18:32, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: well, let's hear those specific items, and see if they can be resolved. ThuranX (talk) 18:39, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Haute cuisine, gratin dishes and methods of serving 

message: Sorry to have to do this first off. The page on broiling redirects to grilling, hence the inclusion of grilling/broiling. The citation is Larousse, the UK version fwiw, which uses both terms, with grilling as the primary term because it's a UK version. Now, aubergine redirects to eggplant, yet this is referencing a French dish where the vegetable is called aubergine, as it is in most of the world - yet in a previous edit aubergine is removed. If you apply the same logic - and I'm quite happy to go to a third party *now* on this btw - then broiling isn't required either - it rediricted just like aubergine is. Do you see my problem here? Trying to decide whether the article should be able to be understood by more people in English speaking countries tends to lead me to want to use both terms in both circumstances. Let's discuss it here and call in third party opinion early if we need to -- Blue Square Thing (talk) 17:34, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Currently cited source at the end of the sentence about grilling/broiling says "...when it is browned in the oven or put under the grill (broiler)" p.615 - first sentence in the Larousse article. You might find it instructive to read the article on grilling (where broiling redirects to) - in mots parts of the world the term grilling can refer to being placed *under* a direct heat source as well as over the top of one -- Blue Square Thing (talk) 17:53, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Whoa there - be careful. There is an accurate quotation above from the source which that sentence references. The *actual* source. Now, if you want to get all hissy about it then let's call in an objective third party *at this point*. Someone who can examine the sources and make a call. This article needs to be accessible to English speaking users - those users in much of the world won't understand the terms boriling or eggplant; they will understand grilling and aubergine; American users will understand the reverse - so why not use both of the terms? -- Blue Square Thing (talk) 18:04, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: look, sock. I warned you. If I have to start a fifth Scokpuppet report against you, I will. This is the exact same shit you keep coming back to this article to perpetrate. We don't play these 'Americans are so fucking ignorant of English' games. You can go play them elsewhere, or you can get another Sock Report, and lose yet another account. I know you've got more, you stupid losers always do. Walk away or get reported. ThuranX (talk) 18:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrt the accusation of sock puppetry - please, at leats respect the fact that there might be disagreement from soneone without having to trawl that old one out again. You have my utter assurance that I'm a unique user; I start from the assumption that you are as well and do *not* question that simply because we disagree -- Blue Square Thing (talk) 18:11, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see why? You're acting in the exact same manner you did before. if you're a unique user, then you're already aware that we don't use slashes to separate two terms. You've been reverted by two users, neither of whom is interested in your edits, my copy of Larousse says broiling, your own quote admits the technique is broiling, not grilling, and so as before, you've successfully argued yourself into a corner and a loss. I'm tired of this, though, so if I have to deal with anymore, I'm skippign the niceties and going right to SPI. ThuranX (talk) 18:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't aware of the non use of / to divide words - can you, for my benefit alone and not as a "point" being scored, point me in the vague direction of the WP on that please? Thanks -- Blue Square Thing (talk) 18:21, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It might be in wp:MOS or you can type    on your usertalk page followed by your question. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:01, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you - it was. I stand corrected as my use was wrong :-) -- Blue Square Thing (talk) 19:13, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broiling, grilling, aubergines and eggplants