Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)/Archive 8

message: Please join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China#Naming conventions.  --Ideogram 02:41, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: Should the definition of Taiwan under the Political NPOV section be expanded to cover geographically affiliated small islands of the main island of Taiwan, e.g. Green Island, Orchid Island and the Pescadores? — Instantnood 17:02, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Taiwan has multiple meanings.  It can mean the island, it can mean the ROC. SchmuckyTheCat 17:04, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not a discussion about whether Taiwan should mean the island of Taiwan or the ROC. What we have to do is to figure out whether or not the meaning of Taiwan under that section covers Green Island, Orchid Island and the Pescadores. If yes the wordings have to be slightly modified accordingly to reflect this.  — Instantnood 17:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia describes, not prescribes.  We do not make up definitions. SchmuckyTheCat 17:18, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright. If it describes, how should it describe Taiwan? Is Green Island, Orchid Island and the Pescadores described as part of Taiwan? — Instantnood 17:26, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Politically, administratively, and culturally, yes. Even more so than Kinmen and Matsu. -Loren 19:12, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, and that's the reason why I brought the matter here. Unlike Orchid Island, Green Island, the Pescadores, etc., the islands on the Fujian coast and those in the South China Sea are, for many purposes, not considered to be part of Taiwan. Should the relevant text under the Political NPOV section be amended to reflect that Taiwan also covers Orchid Island, etc., not just the main island itself? — Instantnood 19:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Start a new thread to propose if you want to remove that sentence. This thread of discussion was not started to address your edit. If your edit was never discussed, it has to be reverted no matter when the edit was actually made.  — Instantnood 19:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it doesn't.  Whatever the circumstances were in 2005 if the edit has remained that way since with nobody else changing it then that is where the consensus is. SchmuckyTheCat 20:24, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To repeat, start a new thread to propose. This thread of discussion was not started to address the edit you have made. — Instantnood 20:28, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A quick look at the archives shows it was discussed, you just refused to accept the answer, as usual.  So, knock it off with the revert warring. SchmuckyTheCat 20:32, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You did not propose at the talk page prior to your edit. If you want to know who's refusing to accept the answer - the fact was that the outcome did not justify your move (e.g. Jiang's remarks). To repeat, this thread of discussion was not started to address the edit you have made. Start a new thread if you want to discuss. — Instantnood 20:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Blah blah blah.  How long do you hold grudges? It has stood for the years and nobody has "corrected" it as you seem to think needs doing. SchmuckyTheCat 01:58, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't want to read the whole thing above, but I think Taiwan has three meanings: Taiwan island, Taiwan Province, and the common name of the ROC. And out of the three, most people use Taiwan as the common name for ROC. In historical context, however, Taiwan is mostly referred to as Taiwan island.--Jerrypp772000 22:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The key issue is that whether or not Green Island, Orchid Island, the Pescadores, etc., should be considered to be part of Taiwan for the more specific (and more accurate and more neutral) usage. </p>I suppose the answer is pretty apparent. Yet to modify the NPOV guideline to reflect this, discussion is required. — Instantnood 23:28, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They should.--Jerrypp772000 22:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. I'll wait for two weeks and see if the proposal would be objected by the community. — Instantnood 23:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What proposal? SchmuckyTheCat 23:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition of "Taiwan"

message: I've seen an issue come up on a few articles where one editor wants the title of the article to use pinyin tone markers, and others do not.  I'm referring to something like Běijīng vs. Beijing.   The  solution always seems to be to use the non-pinyin name, and redirect the pinyin name to that name.  I agree with that, but I can't find anywhere that this policy is explicitly stated.  Is there no consensus on this, or does it just need to be written down somewhere? --Danaman5 20:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is so obvious that we probably didn't even find it necessary to mention it here. In academic papers, books, print media, street signs, government publications, and everything else that is not a Chinese language textbook, pinyin is rendered without tones. Tones should only appear when the pinyin is set off in parenthesis next to characters to introduce a Chinese term. Otherwise, don't use tones.--Jiang 03:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pinyin article titles 

message: Guys, I think it's time we really got around to nailing down an acceptable version of the Naming Conventions for the Political NPOV section, as the nebulous definitions are leading to yet another disruptive edit war strecthing across multiple articles where editors seem to take offense at either "ROC" or "Taiwan" and have done blanket replacements which have led to completely POV or nonsensical edits. In the past, the general consensus was to reference official organs using their official titles (Republic of China Navy), while providing appropriate disambigs in the article intros; non-political articles took into account the general interchangibility of ROC and Taiwan in common usage, e.g. Culture of Taiwan, and used the common term under the understanding that a geographic area was being referenced, rather than some statement on policial status. I see no reason to change this arrangement, though I suspect some newer (or not so new) editors may have issues with this. So can we please decide on something? To sum up my suggestions: "President of the Republic of China", "Chien-Ming Wang was born in Tainan City, Taiwan...", "Culture of Taiwan", "Taipei City is the capital of the Republic of China..." -Loren 07:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Official title should be used for official things - and official title is Republic of China, not Taiwan, (Taiwan), or on Taiwan. --PalaceGuard008 00:02, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

text: A country (or "sovereign state" in this case, as TingMing claimed) is an abstract term created by political leaders with borders and all that. I believe that for no reason should we apply ROC onto birthplaces/locations of any person/thing, even if they are political figures/objects. Note that since it's infamously disputed for political reasons, "Taiwan" and "ROC" are being confused in most cases; it is not the same case as Germany, France, Spain, or any of the like. Even the United States is never used in an American person's birthplace, although for an explicitly different reason from the case of Taiwan. Therefore, although ROC currently governs Taiwan-minus-Taipei-City-and-Kaohsiung-City (they do not belong to Taiwan Province) and a few other places (like Kinmen and Matsu), the island is commonly called "Taiwan" to the degree that ROC cannot be grouped under the term "location" or "birthplace". It is especially absurd to refer a Taiwanese to be born in Tainan City, "Republic of China"/"Taiwan Province of ROC", and even a mention of ROC for birthplace (e.g. "ROC, commonly known as Taiwan")appears more or less awkward. Vic226說 04:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should use the common name for the birthplace too.--Jerrypp772000 19:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with using the geographical name. And someone please get rid of those awful awful flags... --PalaceGuard008 00:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I think No. 5 is more appropriate for non-political articles.--Jerrypp772000 21:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: (tongue firmly in cheek, but semi-seriously) Why not just agree that "ROC" and "Taiwan" are used interchangeably in the real world and just leave it and beat over the head anyone who goes out of their way to rename/move/find-replace and otherwise edit war about it? SchmuckyTheCat 21:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That was what we were doing before, and while I preferred the flexibility that afforded, it apparently isn't enough to prevent massive edit wars from people who seem insistant on implementing their... ah... strongly held views on the nature of cross-Straits relations. It's kind of difficult for me to come down like a pile of bricks on edit warring parties without a concrete standard to point to. Accusing someone of being obtuse just doesn't seem to cut it. -Loren 22:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Stop trying to make your own judgements. Slow down, take a deep breath and think about it. There is no country called "Taiwan." The country governing Taiwan is still the Republic of China. Therefore, the official name prevails according to conventions. TingMing 23:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hardly. The current conventions call for referring to the state by its formal name, but makes note of the fact that "Taiwan" is used interchangebly with ROC in common parlance. For nonpolitical articles linking to Taiwan as a geographic area has been accepted usage in the past as it makes no judgements on legitimacy/political status. Taiwan is an island located in East Asia east of Mainland China, south of Japan and north of the Philippines. All other political details are relegated to their respective articles. -Loren 23:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Your first sentence makes your message less of an attempt for discussion; it sounds like you are ready for a debate which is not the case in here. We use "Taiwan" not because we think Taiwan is the name for the country, but because it is a more commonly used term than ROC is. Also, conventions plays absolutely no parts here since 1) it has been tagged by two neutrality-disputed templates; 2) we are still working for a more concrete one right here, right now; 3) ... haven't I said the same thing as above to you before? Vic226說 04:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't really care about the usage of ROC in political context although it might confuse a lot of people. The point is, non-political articles should stay non-political, that is, we should use Taiwan. Taiwan is the only term that can be political and non-political at the same time. ROC is almost always political.--Jerrypp772000 23:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd support Loren's idea of using #1 for political subjects, and #2 for non-political. It strikes a good balance between the official name (as TingMing wants), and the colloquial name (like Jerry wants). People can see both, and can discern the difference between the ROC and the PRC. Whatever the decision, this nit-picking edit war needs to stop. (Sorry Jerry - accidentally overwrote your comments - Doh!) --Folic Acid 00:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really see the point of putting the official name in a non-political article. Not to mention the fact that there are a lot of people who don't know the difference between ROC and PRC.--Jerrypp772000 00:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  For me it depends upon the usage. "So and so was born in Kaohsiung City, Taiwan" works fine for me since that's common usage. For infoboxes where place of origin is requested Taiwan ROC seems to be a better compromise. -Loren 00:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: As far as I am concerned, Taiwan can be used interchangeably with ROC, even in political articles. There are very few instances where this is the wrong thing to do, and in most cases it is the most understood thing. This POV won't gain much traction, and I don't currently apply it. (in fact, I try to stay away from Taiwan naming disputes). SchmuckyTheCat 00:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I try to avoid them as well, which is possibly one reason why the latest one spun out of hand. -Loren 00:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: If I had to, I would go with Loren's proposal.--Jerrypp772000 00:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: That using the parentheses would equate ROC to Taiwan is your own opinion. At least nobody else in here has felt the same way yet. Also, please refrain from making personal remarks on others, as it is against the WP:NPA and/or WP:AGF. Vic226說 04:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The country's name is still the Republic of China. Why cant Jerry and others follow it? That is the correct way. I think Republic of China on Taiwan works perfectly if need be. Republic of China (Taiwan) equates ROC to Taiwan which is not true. What about Fujian province of the Republic of China? Republic of China (government/country) on (based) Taiwan (since 1949).That is how I decipher it. Republic of China (Taiwan) [Republic of China= Taiwan]. That is completely perposterous and wrong. TingMing 01:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Including Taiwan in parentheses refers to common usage as understood in the west. No one is asserting whether the ROC is or isn't the same as Taiwan, which is a whole other 
can of worms. BTW, I did look inside my passport. The country code was TWN and the cover said REPUBLIC OF CHINA TAIWAN. -Loren 01:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You checked the wrong place. Check in the Nationality Field. The new passports have Republic of China, way underneath that, you find Taiwan. TingMing 05:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Again, this is unrelated to the point that I am making. My point is that regardless of what you or I think the ROC is, ROC and Taiwan are commonly used interchangebly in the English-speaking world to refer to that thing in the Pacific Ocean at around 23°46′N, 121°0′E and other things related to/located on/coming from it. This is the crux of the arguement why we would include disambiguation in parentheses, and why it makes sense to use either "Republic of China" or "Taiwan" in various articles depending upon the context. No one is arguing what the ROC is, the point is how it is generally referred to in common speech, which again, varies depending on the context. -Loren 16:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Again, I agree with Loren.  While nobody is (as far as I know) challenging the official name of the state, we're acknowledging the common usage of the word "Taiwan" to refer to what is officially known as the Republic of China.  Nobody is ignoring Kinmen, Matsu, Penghu, or the rest.  Saying "Republic of China (Taiwan)" is not a political statement (at least, it's not for me) - in my opinion, it's an attempt to both differentiate the PRC from the ROC, and to acknowledge that most of the world calls the ROC "Taiwan" anyway.  It's similar to people calling the "United States of America" simply "America."  Nobody's claiming that the US has jurisdiction over the whole North American continent - that's just what people call it.  So, for what it's worth, I reiterate my support for the use of #1 and #2. --Folic Acid 01:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree with Jerry. Taiwan for geographic/non-political things. For political matters, "Republic of China (Taiwan). John Smith's 22:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It depends on which government website you go to. If you go to others like the Legislative Yuan, it still says R.O.C. And in Chinese sites, they have Republic of China exclusively 中華民國. And when the Kuomintang returns to power in 2008, those sites will be changed. TingMing 05:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please avoid politicking comments. They polarize the discussion and we are trying to come together. SchmuckyTheCat 06:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: No political crystal ball here, please. That isn't related to the *current* discussion at all. Vic226說 06:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: You shold tell the Deep Green users on Wikipedia and not tell me. They object to everything, but they have to accept the Republic of China as a reality, whether they like it or not. It truly exists. TingMing 03:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  (Duplicated from User talk:TingMing) Again, the objection is not your personal POV, but how you are conducting yourself. Edits such as this one where you delete POVs you disapprove of are unacceptable, especially on an article whose purpose is to describe all of the opposing POVs. Please take a step back, calm down, and realize that everyone has their own perception of the way things should be, especially on political topics which are extremely subjective. It is not our job on Wikipedia to decide which one is right, who owns Taiwan, should rule China, and whether current language norms are politically correct. All we seek is what is verifiable from reliable sources. The arguments you deleted on Legal status of Taiwan are verifiable as having come from PRC sources and indicative of PRC policy. It does not matter whether you or I consider them to be correct, the purpose of the article is to illustrate the varying viewpoints held by all involved parties. -Loren 03:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

text: By reverting my comment about your request, it does not appear that you are trying to engage in a constructive discussion at all. Therefore you cannot blame on us, saying that we are being Pan Green/TIers and not trying to discuss with you, either. Vic226說 07:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I prefer Republic of China or Republic of China] (Taiwan) for political or official issues, and just Taiwan for geographical things. For example, birthplaces should be fine with just "Taiwan". But say, "national flower" should be Republic of China, not Taiwan, because that's the name of the regime. --PalaceGuard008 00:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ROC/Taiwan Naming Conventions (Here we go again...) 

message: * Republic of China Navy: "The Republic of China Navy is the maritime branch of the armed forces of the Republic of China, commonly referred to as Taiwan..."
* President of the Republic of China: "The President of the Republic of China is the head of state of the Republic of China (ROC).... Outside of Taiwan, the President of the Republic of China is usually informally referred to as the "President of Taiwan""
====Comments====
As these articles reference official bodies, the official titles should be used (ROC), along with relevant disambiguation on common usage (blah blah blah commonly referred to as...). Replacing ROC with Taiwan in the title is inappropriate here. -Loren 07:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Official title should be used for official things - and official title is Republic of China, not Taiwan, (Taiwan), or on Taiwan. --PalaceGuard008 00:02, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Official organs and positions

message: As these articles reference official bodies, the official titles should be used (ROC), along with relevant disambiguation on common usage (blah blah blah commonly referred to as...). Replacing ROC with Taiwan in the title is inappropriate here. -Loren 07:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Official title should be used for official things - and official title is Republic of China, not Taiwan, (Taiwan), or on Taiwan. --PalaceGuard008 00:02, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: * Jay Chou: (from infobox) Origin  Taiwan (Republic of China).   "Jay Chou grew up in the small town of Linkou, Taiwan. Apparently showing sensitivity to music even as an infant, his mother took him to piano lessons at the age of 4."
* Chien-Ming Wang: "Chien-Ming Wang, born March 31, 1980 in Tainan City, Republic of China, commonly known as Taiwan, is a starting pitcher for the New York Yankees in Major League Baseball."
====Comments====
In general, people reading articles of a nonpolitical nature could care less about the intricate details of Taiwan, the ROC, the PRC... etc. Things like "Tainan City, Republic of China" on an article of a baseball player are unnecessary, confusing, and not common usage. In this context, "Taiwan" references a geographic area. Users clicking on the link are directed to the Taiwan article which contains all the gory details there. -Loren 07:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A country (or "sovereign state" in this case, as TingMing claimed) is an abstract term created by political leaders with borders and all that. I believe that for no reason should we apply ROC onto birthplaces/locations of any person/thing, even if they are political figures/objects. Note that since it's infamously disputed for political reasons, "Taiwan" and "ROC" are being confused in most cases; it is not the same case as Germany, France, Spain, or any of the like. Even the United States is never used in an American person's birthplace, although for an explicitly different reason from the case of Taiwan. Therefore, although ROC currently governs Taiwan-minus-Taipei-City-and-Kaohsiung-City (they do not belong to Taiwan Province) and a few other places (like Kinmen and Matsu), the island is commonly called "Taiwan" to the degree that ROC cannot be grouped under the term "location" or "birthplace". It is especially absurd to refer a Taiwanese to be born in Tainan City, "Republic of China"/"Taiwan Province of ROC", and even a mention of ROC for birthplace (e.g. "ROC, commonly known as Taiwan")appears more or less awkward. Vic226說 04:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should use the common name for the birthplace too.--Jerrypp772000 19:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with using the geographical name. And someone please get rid of those awful awful flags... --PalaceGuard008 00:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: People/Things (nonpolitical)

message: In general, people reading articles of a nonpolitical nature could care less about the intricate details of Taiwan, the ROC, the PRC... etc. Things like "Tainan City, Republic of China" on an article of a baseball player are unnecessary, confusing, and not common usage. In this context, "Taiwan" references a geographic area. Users clicking on the link are directed to the Taiwan article which contains all the gory details there. -Loren 07:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A country (or "sovereign state" in this case, as TingMing claimed) is an abstract term created by political leaders with borders and all that. I believe that for no reason should we apply ROC onto birthplaces/locations of any person/thing, even if they are political figures/objects. Note that since it's infamously disputed for political reasons, "Taiwan" and "ROC" are being confused in most cases; it is not the same case as Germany, France, Spain, or any of the like. Even the United States is never used in an American person's birthplace, although for an explicitly different reason from the case of Taiwan. Therefore, although ROC currently governs Taiwan-minus-Taipei-City-and-Kaohsiung-City (they do not belong to Taiwan Province) and a few other places (like Kinmen and Matsu), the island is commonly called "Taiwan" to the degree that ROC cannot be grouped under the term "location" or "birthplace". It is especially absurd to refer a Taiwanese to be born in Tainan City, "Republic of China"/"Taiwan Province of ROC", and even a mention of ROC for birthplace (e.g. "ROC, commonly known as Taiwan")appears more or less awkward. Vic226說 04:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should use the common name for the birthplace too.--Jerrypp772000 19:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with using the geographical name. And someone please get rid of those awful awful flags... --PalaceGuard008 00:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: * Taipei City: "Taipei City is the capital of the Republic of China. It is Taiwan's center of politics, commerce, mass media, education, and pop culture, and is considered to be one of the "Gamma world cities"."
* Taipei 101: "Taipei 101 is a 101-floor landmark skyscraper located in Taipei City, Taiwan, Republic of China."
====Comments====
Again, since the Taipei City article concerns a governmental division, the ROC is referenced. For the latter, I fail to see the point of plastering "Republic of China" after the common name of the location (or, as some editors have done, replacing "Taiwan" everywhere with "Republic of China", which is not common usage. -Loren 07:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Places

message: Again, since the Taipei City article concerns a governmental division, the ROC is referenced. For the latter, I fail to see the point of plastering "Republic of China" after the common name of the location (or, as some editors have done, replacing "Taiwan" everywhere with "Republic of China", which is not common usage. -Loren 07:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: # Republic of China (Taiwan): pre-edit war consensus.
# Taiwan (Republic of China)
# Republic of China on Taiwan.
# Republic of China
# Taiwan (direct to article on geographic area)
# Taiwan Province
# Free Area of the Republic of China
====Comment====
I suggest using #1 for political listings, #2 for nonpolitical subjects. -Loren 07:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think No. 5 is more appropriate for non-political articles.--Jerrypp772000 21:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: (tongue firmly in cheek, but semi-seriously) Why not just agree that "ROC" and "Taiwan" are used interchangeably in the real world and just leave it and beat over the head anyone who goes out of their way to rename/move/find-replace and otherwise edit war about it? SchmuckyTheCat 21:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That was what we were doing before, and while I preferred the flexibility that afforded, it apparently isn't enough to prevent massive edit wars from people who seem insistant on implementing their... ah... strongly held views on the nature of cross-Straits relations. It's kind of difficult for me to come down like a pile of bricks on edit warring parties without a concrete standard to point to. Accusing someone of being obtuse just doesn't seem to cut it. -Loren 22:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Stop trying to make your own judgements. Slow down, take a deep breath and think about it. There is no country called "Taiwan." The country governing Taiwan is still the Republic of China. Therefore, the official name prevails according to conventions. TingMing 23:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hardly. The current conventions call for referring to the state by its formal name, but makes note of the fact that "Taiwan" is used interchangebly with ROC in common parlance. For nonpolitical articles linking to Taiwan as a geographic area has been accepted usage in the past as it makes no judgements on legitimacy/political status. Taiwan is an island located in East Asia east of Mainland China, south of Japan and north of the Philippines. All other political details are relegated to their respective articles. -Loren 23:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Your first sentence makes your message less of an attempt for discussion; it sounds like you are ready for a debate which is not the case in here. We use "Taiwan" not because we think Taiwan is the name for the country, but because it is a more commonly used term than ROC is. Also, conventions plays absolutely no parts here since 1) it has been tagged by two neutrality-disputed templates; 2) we are still working for a more concrete one right here, right now; 3) ... haven't I said the same thing as above to you before? Vic226說 04:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't really care about the usage of ROC in political context although it might confuse a lot of people. The point is, non-political articles should stay non-political, that is, we should use Taiwan. Taiwan is the only term that can be political and non-political at the same time. ROC is almost always political.--Jerrypp772000 23:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd support Loren's idea of using #1 for political subjects, and #2 for non-political. It strikes a good balance between the official name (as TingMing wants), and the colloquial name (like Jerry wants). People can see both, and can discern the difference between the ROC and the PRC. Whatever the decision, this nit-picking edit war needs to stop. (Sorry Jerry - accidentally overwrote your comments - Doh!) --Folic Acid 00:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really see the point of putting the official name in a non-political article. Not to mention the fact that there are a lot of people who don't know the difference between ROC and PRC.--Jerrypp772000 00:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  For me it depends upon the usage. "So and so was born in Kaohsiung City, Taiwan" works fine for me since that's common usage. For infoboxes where place of origin is requested Taiwan ROC seems to be a better compromise. -Loren 00:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: As far as I am concerned, Taiwan can be used interchangeably with ROC, even in political articles. There are very few instances where this is the wrong thing to do, and in most cases it is the most understood thing. This POV won't gain much traction, and I don't currently apply it. (in fact, I try to stay away from Taiwan naming disputes). SchmuckyTheCat 00:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I try to avoid them as well, which is possibly one reason why the latest one spun out of hand. -Loren 00:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: If I had to, I would go with Loren's proposal.--Jerrypp772000 00:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: That using the parentheses would equate ROC to Taiwan is your own opinion. At least nobody else in here has felt the same way yet. Also, please refrain from making personal remarks on others, as it is against the WP:NPA and/or WP:AGF. Vic226說 04:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The country's name is still the Republic of China. Why cant Jerry and others follow it? That is the correct way. I think Republic of China on Taiwan works perfectly if need be. Republic of China (Taiwan) equates ROC to Taiwan which is not true. What about Fujian province of the Republic of China? Republic of China (government/country) on (based) Taiwan (since 1949).That is how I decipher it. Republic of China (Taiwan) [Republic of China= Taiwan]. That is completely perposterous and wrong. TingMing 01:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Including Taiwan in parentheses refers to common usage as understood in the west. No one is asserting whether the ROC is or isn't the same as Taiwan, which is a whole other 
can of worms. BTW, I did look inside my passport. The country code was TWN and the cover said REPUBLIC OF CHINA TAIWAN. -Loren 01:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You checked the wrong place. Check in the Nationality Field. The new passports have Republic of China, way underneath that, you find Taiwan. TingMing 05:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Again, this is unrelated to the point that I am making. My point is that regardless of what you or I think the ROC is, ROC and Taiwan are commonly used interchangebly in the English-speaking world to refer to that thing in the Pacific Ocean at around 23°46′N, 121°0′E and other things related to/located on/coming from it. This is the crux of the arguement why we would include disambiguation in parentheses, and why it makes sense to use either "Republic of China" or "Taiwan" in various articles depending upon the context. No one is arguing what the ROC is, the point is how it is generally referred to in common speech, which again, varies depending on the context. -Loren 16:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Again, I agree with Loren.  While nobody is (as far as I know) challenging the official name of the state, we're acknowledging the common usage of the word "Taiwan" to refer to what is officially known as the Republic of China.  Nobody is ignoring Kinmen, Matsu, Penghu, or the rest.  Saying "Republic of China (Taiwan)" is not a political statement (at least, it's not for me) - in my opinion, it's an attempt to both differentiate the PRC from the ROC, and to acknowledge that most of the world calls the ROC "Taiwan" anyway.  It's similar to people calling the "United States of America" simply "America."  Nobody's claiming that the US has jurisdiction over the whole North American continent - that's just what people call it.  So, for what it's worth, I reiterate my support for the use of #1 and #2. --Folic Acid 01:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree with Jerry. Taiwan for geographic/non-political things. For political matters, "Republic of China (Taiwan). John Smith's 22:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It depends on which government website you go to. If you go to others like the Legislative Yuan, it still says R.O.C. And in Chinese sites, they have Republic of China exclusively 中華民國. And when the Kuomintang returns to power in 2008, those sites will be changed. TingMing 05:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please avoid politicking comments. They polarize the discussion and we are trying to come together. SchmuckyTheCat 06:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: No political crystal ball here, please. That isn't related to the *current* discussion at all. Vic226說 06:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: You shold tell the Deep Green users on Wikipedia and not tell me. They object to everything, but they have to accept the Republic of China as a reality, whether they like it or not. It truly exists. TingMing 03:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  (Duplicated from User talk:TingMing) Again, the objection is not your personal POV, but how you are conducting yourself. Edits such as this one where you delete POVs you disapprove of are unacceptable, especially on an article whose purpose is to describe all of the opposing POVs. Please take a step back, calm down, and realize that everyone has their own perception of the way things should be, especially on political topics which are extremely subjective. It is not our job on Wikipedia to decide which one is right, who owns Taiwan, should rule China, and whether current language norms are politically correct. All we seek is what is verifiable from reliable sources. The arguments you deleted on Legal status of Taiwan are verifiable as having come from PRC sources and indicative of PRC policy. It does not matter whether you or I consider them to be correct, the purpose of the article is to illustrate the varying viewpoints held by all involved parties. -Loren 03:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

text: By reverting my comment about your request, it does not appear that you are trying to engage in a constructive discussion at all. Therefore you cannot blame on us, saying that we are being Pan Green/TIers and not trying to discuss with you, either. Vic226說 07:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I prefer Republic of China or Republic of China] (Taiwan) for political or official issues, and just Taiwan for geographical things. For example, birthplaces should be fine with just "Taiwan". But say, "national flower" should be Republic of China, not Taiwan, because that's the name of the regime. --PalaceGuard008 00:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Options for infoboxes or lists

message: I suggest using #1 for political listings, #2 for nonpolitical subjects. -Loren 07:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think No. 5 is more appropriate for non-political articles.--Jerrypp772000 21:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: (tongue firmly in cheek, but semi-seriously) Why not just agree that "ROC" and "Taiwan" are used interchangeably in the real world and just leave it and beat over the head anyone who goes out of their way to rename/move/find-replace and otherwise edit war about it? SchmuckyTheCat 21:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That was what we were doing before, and while I preferred the flexibility that afforded, it apparently isn't enough to prevent massive edit wars from people who seem insistant on implementing their... ah... strongly held views on the nature of cross-Straits relations. It's kind of difficult for me to come down like a pile of bricks on edit warring parties without a concrete standard to point to. Accusing someone of being obtuse just doesn't seem to cut it. -Loren 22:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Stop trying to make your own judgements. Slow down, take a deep breath and think about it. There is no country called "Taiwan." The country governing Taiwan is still the Republic of China. Therefore, the official name prevails according to conventions. TingMing 23:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hardly. The current conventions call for referring to the state by its formal name, but makes note of the fact that "Taiwan" is used interchangebly with ROC in common parlance. For nonpolitical articles linking to Taiwan as a geographic area has been accepted usage in the past as it makes no judgements on legitimacy/political status. Taiwan is an island located in East Asia east of Mainland China, south of Japan and north of the Philippines. All other political details are relegated to their respective articles. -Loren 23:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Your first sentence makes your message less of an attempt for discussion; it sounds like you are ready for a debate which is not the case in here. We use "Taiwan" not because we think Taiwan is the name for the country, but because it is a more commonly used term than ROC is. Also, conventions plays absolutely no parts here since 1) it has been tagged by two neutrality-disputed templates; 2) we are still working for a more concrete one right here, right now; 3) ... haven't I said the same thing as above to you before? Vic226說 04:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't really care about the usage of ROC in political context although it might confuse a lot of people. The point is, non-political articles should stay non-political, that is, we should use Taiwan. Taiwan is the only term that can be political and non-political at the same time. ROC is almost always political.--Jerrypp772000 23:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd support Loren's idea of using #1 for political subjects, and #2 for non-political. It strikes a good balance between the official name (as TingMing wants), and the colloquial name (like Jerry wants). People can see both, and can discern the difference between the ROC and the PRC. Whatever the decision, this nit-picking edit war needs to stop. (Sorry Jerry - accidentally overwrote your comments - Doh!) --Folic Acid 00:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really see the point of putting the official name in a non-political article. Not to mention the fact that there are a lot of people who don't know the difference between ROC and PRC.--Jerrypp772000 00:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  For me it depends upon the usage. "So and so was born in Kaohsiung City, Taiwan" works fine for me since that's common usage. For infoboxes where place of origin is requested Taiwan ROC seems to be a better compromise. -Loren 00:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: As far as I am concerned, Taiwan can be used interchangeably with ROC, even in political articles. There are very few instances where this is the wrong thing to do, and in most cases it is the most understood thing. This POV won't gain much traction, and I don't currently apply it. (in fact, I try to stay away from Taiwan naming disputes). SchmuckyTheCat 00:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I try to avoid them as well, which is possibly one reason why the latest one spun out of hand. -Loren 00:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: If I had to, I would go with Loren's proposal.--Jerrypp772000 00:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: That using the parentheses would equate ROC to Taiwan is your own opinion. At least nobody else in here has felt the same way yet. Also, please refrain from making personal remarks on others, as it is against the WP:NPA and/or WP:AGF. Vic226說 04:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The country's name is still the Republic of China. Why cant Jerry and others follow it? That is the correct way. I think Republic of China on Taiwan works perfectly if need be. Republic of China (Taiwan) equates ROC to Taiwan which is not true. What about Fujian province of the Republic of China? Republic of China (government/country) on (based) Taiwan (since 1949).That is how I decipher it. Republic of China (Taiwan) [Republic of China= Taiwan]. That is completely perposterous and wrong. TingMing 01:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Including Taiwan in parentheses refers to common usage as understood in the west. No one is asserting whether the ROC is or isn't the same as Taiwan, which is a whole other 
can of worms. BTW, I did look inside my passport. The country code was TWN and the cover said REPUBLIC OF CHINA TAIWAN. -Loren 01:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You checked the wrong place. Check in the Nationality Field. The new passports have Republic of China, way underneath that, you find Taiwan. TingMing 05:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Again, this is unrelated to the point that I am making. My point is that regardless of what you or I think the ROC is, ROC and Taiwan are commonly used interchangebly in the English-speaking world to refer to that thing in the Pacific Ocean at around 23°46′N, 121°0′E and other things related to/located on/coming from it. This is the crux of the arguement why we would include disambiguation in parentheses, and why it makes sense to use either "Republic of China" or "Taiwan" in various articles depending upon the context. No one is arguing what the ROC is, the point is how it is generally referred to in common speech, which again, varies depending on the context. -Loren 16:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Again, I agree with Loren.  While nobody is (as far as I know) challenging the official name of the state, we're acknowledging the common usage of the word "Taiwan" to refer to what is officially known as the Republic of China.  Nobody is ignoring Kinmen, Matsu, Penghu, or the rest.  Saying "Republic of China (Taiwan)" is not a political statement (at least, it's not for me) - in my opinion, it's an attempt to both differentiate the PRC from the ROC, and to acknowledge that most of the world calls the ROC "Taiwan" anyway.  It's similar to people calling the "United States of America" simply "America."  Nobody's claiming that the US has jurisdiction over the whole North American continent - that's just what people call it.  So, for what it's worth, I reiterate my support for the use of #1 and #2. --Folic Acid 01:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree with Jerry. Taiwan for geographic/non-political things. For political matters, "Republic of China (Taiwan). John Smith's 22:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It depends on which government website you go to. If you go to others like the Legislative Yuan, it still says R.O.C. And in Chinese sites, they have Republic of China exclusively 中華民國. And when the Kuomintang returns to power in 2008, those sites will be changed. TingMing 05:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please avoid politicking comments. They polarize the discussion and we are trying to come together. SchmuckyTheCat 06:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: No political crystal ball here, please. That isn't related to the *current* discussion at all. Vic226說 06:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: You shold tell the Deep Green users on Wikipedia and not tell me. They object to everything, but they have to accept the Republic of China as a reality, whether they like it or not. It truly exists. TingMing 03:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  (Duplicated from User talk:TingMing) Again, the objection is not your personal POV, but how you are conducting yourself. Edits such as this one where you delete POVs you disapprove of are unacceptable, especially on an article whose purpose is to describe all of the opposing POVs. Please take a step back, calm down, and realize that everyone has their own perception of the way things should be, especially on political topics which are extremely subjective. It is not our job on Wikipedia to decide which one is right, who owns Taiwan, should rule China, and whether current language norms are politically correct. All we seek is what is verifiable from reliable sources. The arguments you deleted on Legal status of Taiwan are verifiable as having come from PRC sources and indicative of PRC policy. It does not matter whether you or I consider them to be correct, the purpose of the article is to illustrate the varying viewpoints held by all involved parties. -Loren 03:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

text: By reverting my comment about your request, it does not appear that you are trying to engage in a constructive discussion at all. Therefore you cannot blame on us, saying that we are being Pan Green/TIers and not trying to discuss with you, either. Vic226說 07:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I prefer Republic of China or Republic of China] (Taiwan) for political or official issues, and just Taiwan for geographical things. For example, birthplaces should be fine with just "Taiwan". But say, "national flower" should be Republic of China, not Taiwan, because that's the name of the regime. --PalaceGuard008 00:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: We've let this sit for a few days, and save TingMing's objections, we all seem to be mostly in agreement about the structure, style, and applicability of the naming conventions.  Is there any further discussion?  Does anything else need to be added/deleted/moved?  --Folic Acid 12:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope I'm not opening up a whole new (or many new) can(s) of worms, but please do keep in the back of your minds how to extend these naming conventions to article names, category names and structure, and the same issues for China/PRC related articles.  --Ideogram 20:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: We might want to take Jiang's suggestion and add a column on usage of Taiwan Province. -Loren 21:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed.  Would anyone else like to take a stab at it?  I'm sure there are those that are more knowledgeable than I about when a referral to Taiwan Province would be preferable to other terms.  --Folic Acid 02:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm a bit swamped to do in-depth work, will try to get around to it in a few days if no one else does. -Loren 02:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Same here.  I won't be able to get to it before next week at the earliest.  --Folic Acid 03:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Wrapping this up

message: This page is getting big.  Anyone mind if I archive the 2006-and-older stuff?  --Folic Acid 19:28, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Go for it. Done. -Loren 19:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I get for posting right before I leave work.  Thanks, Loren.  --Folic Acid 19:55, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving 

message: There have long been raids towards Hong Kong and Macau related articles that they should be shown as "Hong Kong, China" and "Macau, China" to demonstrate Chinese sovereignty. Yet in the recent spcial issue of TIME Asia titled "The Best of Asia", I found "Tokyo, Japan", "Kolkata, India", "Seoul, South Korea", "Thimphu, Bhutan", "Beijing, China", "Kabul, Afghanistan", "Delhi, India", "Bangkok, Thailand", "Jakarta, Indonesia", but simply "Hong Kong" or "Kowloon, Hong Kong" instead of "Hong Kong, China" or "Hong Kong, People's Republic of China". Is that illustrating something? Nobody ever disputes China's sovereignty over the two territories, yet there exists an established convention in printed publications how they are dealed with. Michael G. Davis 14:59, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's really comparable. Your list from Time Asia  is in the format of "name of city", "name of country", whereas "Hong Kong, China" and "Macau, China" are "name of region (SAR)", "name of country". LDHan 16:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't understand what you meant by the latter. The "name of city", "name of country" format is prevalent everywhere, including printed publications. Michael G. Davis 23:03, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Very interesting indeed. I wonder how many would consider TIME magazine universally politically correct, and a bastion of political nuetrality for Wikipedia to adopt wholeheartedly in respect of its NPOV policy.--Huaiwei 16:19, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh and btw, you are quite right that the "name of city", "name of country" format is prevalent everywhere. I just noticed the front cover of the 18 June 2007 issue of TIME Magazine (Vol. 169, No. 23) has a large "HONG KONG, CHINA" on its front cover. (and the full report here)--Huaiwei 16:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  An interesting observation