Talk:Richard Wagner/Archive 7

message: I have added a reference in the article to Aspects of Wagner by Bryan Magee, an excellent set of six essays dealing with, as the title suggests, various Wagnerian issues, including his theory of opera, anti-semitism, the way he influenced music and literature etc. This modest book has enormously increased my understanding of Wagner, and I commend it to everyone who loves his music, and seeks to try and understand better both the music and the man. Peter Maggs
:Sounds interesting; what year was it published?  nobs 18:08, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a very good book - short and sharp. It was published around the mid 70s I think. Magee later wrote 'Wagner and Philosophy'. Paul B 23:46, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Apologies for my spelling - now corrected (and failing to sign my first post). The book was first published in 1968 with five essays - this was the version I first came across. I recently purchased the book in the 1988 version, now expanded to six essays: Wagner's Theory of Opera, Jews - Not Least in Music, Wagnerolatory, The Influence of Wagner, Wagner in Performance and Wagner as Music. Peter Maggs 05:35, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Aspects of Wagner

message: Perhaps a note that his name is pronouced "Vagner" instead of "Wagner" because W in German sounds like V? -- WB 11:02, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Perhaps 

message: ...especially his popularization of emotional leitmotifs. I have drawn a triangle of links between this article, as well as the articles Star Wars and Final Fantasy, in order to help new generations understand the contributions of Wagner to the emotional power of an "epic" or "romantic" story. Please add comments/criticism, or post on my talk.--Zaorish 08:01, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I added more about his influences on recent art forms... 

message: I have started the above category for 'People notable for their attachment to the music of Richard Wagner.' Do please populate this with appropriate candidates (and help keep it non-trivial). On a slightly less elevated level I have also created :Category:Wikipedian Wagnerites and will be interested to see how many (if any) sign on, apart from myself. --Smerus 16:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The :Category:Wagnerites has now attracted a number of entries (and not only from myself) but it has now been put up for deletion on what I consider to be rather aggressively inaccurate grounds - Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_January_25 - please consider voting for its retention as it serves (imho) a serious purpose in terms of musicology, music history and opera . Thanks - --Smerus 06:53, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[:Category:Wagnerites]]

message: Uno momento. I read this:
"Despite his very public anti-Semitic views, Wagner maintained an extensive network of Jewish friends and colleagues. The most notable of these was Hermann Levi, a practicing Jew whom Wagner chose to conduct the premiere of Parsifal, his last opera."
This statement is puzzling. I've read several biograpies of Wagner. Who wrote this line? 
Good King Ludwig forced Wagner to accept Levi's conducting of Parsifal despite Wagner's vehement objections - specifically because of Wagner hated all Jews. (I am not Jewish - I'm an athiest - thank God.) But this line seems to say Wagner and Levi were bosom buddies. This is not the truth. If we learn anything from Wagner, it is that the most beautiful art can come from the most fallable humanity. Let's not poopoo that fact, even if we have to put Wagner in the context of his times. 
PS: Rienzi was NOT an artistic "sin." I am tired of hearing this kind of thing about this opera. Let's refrain from repeating fashionable judgments handed down by others who know nothing. Rienzi as a whole may not be perfect, but it contains beautiful themes. Listen to the Overture. Listen to Rienzi's Prayer.
This article is basically pretty good. But the above line is questionable. 
Chuck
Yokohama
: Dear Chuck - wait another second. I have read the passage you quote several times and cannot see anything which implies Wagner and Levi were bosom buddies. It actually makes no comment at all about Levi's feelings. Wagner did indeed have 'an extensive network of Jewish friends and colleagues' and Levi was one of the latter. Levi in fact had a (to me rather sickening) devotion to Wagner despite the latter's boorish behaviour. Now let me quote to you the words of Robert Gutman, a highly critical biographer of Wagner. 'With many Jews  -  Tausig, Rubinstein, Levi, Lilli Lehmann and her mother, and Neumann (....) (Wagner) could never disentangle genuine affection from a general consuming hate' ('Richard Wagner' (1990), p. 413). No one could ever accuse of Wagner of consistency, a fact which makes it dangerous to jump to immediate judgement on his many failings (and on the failings of those who write about him). And by the way, the bit of the article you complain about was written I think by me.--Smerus 14:55, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  a third second - I discover that I did not write the passage in question. Nevertheless I have rewritten it in a way which I hope clarifies and is factually accurate.--Smerus 18:02, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Where does the article say that Rienzi was an "artistic sin"? I can find no such passage. Paul B 15:38, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mr nobs seems to have an almost evangelical distaste for Rienzi, as evidenced in the discussions above, which is the only point at which the term "sin" is used. But his POV is not expressed in the article. As regards Levi, he wrote to his father (who was a rabbi) as follows regarding Wagner's antisemitism: "His fight against what he calls 'Jewishness', in music and in modern literature springs from the noblest of motives, and the fact that he does not harbour any petty risches...is clearly demonstrated by his relationship with me and with Joseph Rubenstein, and by his earlier intimate friendship with Tausig whom he loved dearly." This may be thought a rather too generous assessment, but it does indicate that there were paradoxes in Wagner's attitudes to Jews. We shouldn't make excuses for him, but we should draw attention to the real complexities of the issue. Paul B 15:56, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Waitasec