Talk:Nichiren Shōshū/Archive 1

message: Should I put this into the category Category:Soka Gakkai or not? I know it's not affiliated with SGI anymore, but since SGI is a big part of their past, it might warrant linkage. What do people say? --Carl 07:40, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I see what you mean, but it's probably not a good idea. It would be like putting Roman Catholicism in :Category:Protestantism. - Nat Krause 05:11, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Fwiw, I agree. Jim_Lockhart 01:24, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Category question

message: I have added some information to the article, but most of what I've done today involved reorganizing the sequence of paragraphs for better flow (bringing similar issues together) and adding subheads and sub-subheads for easier navigation from the Contents links.
I also checked the spelling again and Wikified the kanji strings and 'ō's and 'ū's.
I still intend to move the bulk of the material of NS's dispute with Soka Gakkai to a separate article with cross links, and I intend to eventually add more information on NS doctrines and its history.
If you come across information that you or your school disagrees with, please add your (school's) interpretation in an appropriate manner, by saying "such-and-such group sees this differently. This group believes [description] because [state reasons]." Lengthy, involved discussions should be given their own article or stated in an article on that specific group. For instance, if you want to represent the interpretations of the Kempon Hokke Shu, write an article on that school and outline its beliefs there, not here, and redirect readers who want to learn about that school to the article on that school.
Thanks Jersey_Jim 08:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  2005.11.26 Rework 

message: Comments and questions on today's additions; first, the opening paragraph for this section.
The Japanese based religious group Soka Gakkai has been affiliated with Nichiren Shoshu teachings, since its beginnings, in the 1930s. Today, Soka Gakkai's teachings share many aspects with those of Nichiren Shoshu. However, in the mid 1970s, differences arose between the two organizations. From the perspective of Nichiren Shoshu, they centered around different interpretations over some Nichiren Shoshu beliefs. According to Nichiren Shoshu, they felt that Soka Gakkai was even introducing newly formulated doctrines of its own. Eventually the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood stripped Daisaku Ikeda of his presidency in the lay organization, and excommunicated him -- some say this includes all Soka Gakkai members, while others disagree -- 1991.
*Why change "Japanese religious group" to "Japanese based religious group"? (If "based" is necessary, then it should be "Japan-based" anyhow.)
*Why "has been affiliated with" rather than "based on"? I can see no rationale for watering the statement down this way other than to try to make Soka Gakkai's previous relationship with NS ambiguous.
*In its original form, the paragraph said that the differences between NS and SG arose, but doesn't place blame. It does, however, go on to say that the priests felt SG was deviating from NS's teachings. By adding "from NS's perspective," the above implies that from someone else's perspective (SG's?), they were not over Nichiren Shoshu beliefs; what, then, were they about from a non-NS perspective, and why is that relevant? Or is the intent to imply as disingenuous the notion that the disagreements were about NS beliefs?
*I take particular issue with the final sentence of this paragraph: The Nichiren Shoshu priesthood did not
**strip Daisaku Ikeda of his presidency in [of?] the lay organization in 1991
**excommunicate him in 1991.
:All Hokkeko lay leaders, of which Ikeda was the highest ranking, were relieved of their posts effective 1 Jan 91, all with the chance open to be renamed later. This did not affect Ikeda's status as a leader of Soka Gakkai.
:Ties to the Soka Gakkai and SGI organizations were severed (in effect, they were excommunicated) first, and Ikeda's name was removed from the roster of believers (he was personally excommunicated) sometime later.
*The final sentence also claims that Ikeda's personal excommunication was seen by some to "include[] all Soka Gakkai members, while others disagree[d]": Only Ikeda's name was removed from the roster of believers. It was repeatedly stated in NS publications that SG members were still welcome at the temples and were still considered NS believers. This did not change until six years later when NS changes its governing rules to read that "Nichiren Shoshu believers who are affiliated with (members of) non-Nichiren Shoshu religious groups will lose their status as NS believers and be removed from the roster of NS believers" (my translation) on 30 September 1997, effective from 1 December 1997. All of this, having been declared through public notices and in publicly available publications, is a matter of public record.
The subsequent new paragraphs also describe some developments out of chronological sequence. This could lead to readers' confusing cause-and-effect relationships. Please review the additions for sequence and accuracy or appropriateness of some of the characterizations (like "blasphemy").
Best, Jersey_Jim 08:51, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  2005.11.29 additions by 70.111.27.59 

message: Good edits, lately, in several of these articles, Jim. How'd you get the news on Nikken so quickly? What's the scoop? Not much said in SGI. No one even seemed to know about it, certainly no one even mentioned it until Sunday, and then only in passing. The comment was that the issue isn't about the individual - it is about the law and the teachings - all are equal in the law, no intermediary can stand between a person and his or her potential for enlightenment. Period. My guess, if the new guy wants to sing the same old tune, the song will stay the same...- Ruby--71.250.88.213 06:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the compliments. Believe it or not, I saw the news about Nikken Shonin in the Japanese Wikipedia on the night of the fourth local time (which would have been around dawn your time). Given a number of changes that have taken place in Nichiren Shoshu over the past several months, such as Rev. Nichinyo Hayase's being named chief administrator several months ago and that Nikken Shonin gave several interviews to internal media, it's been kind of in the wind and a lot of people figured HP Nikken would step down as soon as all the major undertakings he'd initiated were complete. Well, In the last of the big court cases closed on October 6, and in September and November he opened the last three new overseas temples (two in Indonesia and one in Singapore) he had been petitioned to found. So I guess he felt that, after 26½ years, it was time to retire; he is, after all, 83 years old. Btw, I really don't get what things like "no intermediary can stand between a person and his or her potential for enlightenment" mean. Someday you'll have explain that one to me (not here, though—a private talk page would be better). Anyhow, have a good one. Jersey_Jim 14:42, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good Edits 

message: I deleted this section, as it is a blatant promotional piece. It has no place in this article. However, should it be rephrased, it would be of interest as part of the general set of descriiptions of various forms of Nichiren Buddhism. It said: 
:::===Downloading the Gohonzon from GohonzonInfo Group===
:::Copies of Gohonzons inscribed by Nichiren himself may be downloaded from the files section of <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GohonzonInfo/>. Additional Nichiren-inscribed Gohonzons will be uploaded, as they are digitized and cleaned-up, on an on-going basis until all 128 extant Nichiren Gohonzons have been uploaded. High resolution copies are available for delivery by mail.
:::In the gosho Nichinyo Gozen Gohenji, Nichiren said, "Never seek this Gohonzon outside yourself. The Gohonzon exists only within the mortal flesh of us ordinary people who embrace the Lotus Sutra and chant Namu-myoho-renge-kyo . . . The most important thing is to chant only Namu-myoho-renge-kyo and attain enlightenment. All depends on the strength of your faith. To have faith is the basis of Buddhism . . . The Gohonzon is found in faith alone."
:::The philosophy of this group is to free the Gohonzon from the control of the sects, some of which use bestowal of a Gohonzon as a means of exerting control over their membership.
:::IF you object to the free distribution of copies of Gohonzons inscribed by Nichiren himself, then do not visit this group. However, if you wish to practice independently and want to get a Gohonzon without submitting to the control of a sect or organzation, this is your answer.
:::The owner of this group has been practicing Buddhism since 1971, and is a digital artist.
Peace - Ruby--68.45.57.193 02:20, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Deleted Promotional Material

message: *Talk:Nichiren Shoshu/Archive01: Identical pages under two article headings (resolved), Category question, No longer identical: Major rewrite, suggest name change, Was There Really an "Operation 'C'"?
I think that it is highly unfair to continually include the accusations that were made by the Soka Gakkai, that are nothing more than retribution for Ikeda getting his walking papers.
I think that the accusations against the High Priest section should be removed. 
The questions on the Daigohonzon is fair to be included, IMO is that is a real controversy among Nichiren Buddhists.
I would also suggest the removal of the sites critical as they are all SGI hit sites.
I am a current member of Nichiren Shoshu, and a former member of the SGI (post split) and I think that its time that their propaganda was no longer set out as legitimate sources.
RaiderSithLord 06:46, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Previous discussions

message: There are several parts of this article that make highly charged accusations and fail to provide supporting citations.  The two worst sections are the section on the split with Soka Gakkai and the section relating to the Dai-gohonzon. I do not want to suggest eliminating these sections, as they are very important to the history of Nichiren Buddhism, but something needs to be done to defuse the text.  
Jrhoadley 19:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV Issues

message: This is my first time every utilizing the comment system on Wikipedia, so please forgive any impropriety or awkwardness.
I'd like to say that I don't think the information about accusations against Nikken Shonin is really relevant to the article on the religion as a whole. It is a 750 year old religion, and there is no mention of other dealings made by former High Priests. In fact, I think it is even more irrelevant considering the fact that Nikken Shonin is no longer the current High Priest.
At best this information should be kept as a stub or link from the split with the SGI section. Since I think it is only relevant from that context. [unsigned comment left by User 128.239.213.155 at 09:45, 7 February 2006]
:I have long thought that and think that the criticisms directed at former High Priest Nikken belong elsewhere. I plan to eventually move them, probably to an article on the Nichiren Shoshu–Soka Gakkai/SGI disputes, but I haven't had the time to write one. Besides, it will be very contentious, as Soka Gakkai/SGI members will demand extremely rigorous substantiation of anything they do not like.
:Btw, in the context of Wikipedia it is inappropriate to refer to criticisms of anyone, regardless of their source, as slander. Call them criticism and describe them and surrounding circumstances, but leave the decision as to whether they entail slander up to the reader. If they do entail slander, but readers cannot derive that information from your description, then the problem lies with the description.
:Also, in future, please identify yourself when leaving comments behind. HTH, Jim_Lockhart 05:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relevancy of Slander's against the High Priest 

message: I see that the criticisms of the previous high priest section has been reverted - without any explanation or discussion. As I and others have stated earlier, there are a variety of reasons why this section is inappropriate. Some of these reasons, such as it being a rival sects propaganda are less compelling. Others, however, are very strong. 
A section detailing accusations (unproven, no less) against one man has no bearing on the religion as a whole, either in concept, principle, or contemporary relevance. Furthermore, Nikken Shonin is not the current high priest. There aren't any sections on the Roman Catholic page discussing former popes. It isn't like criticisms don't exist about personalities in a religion, but they are not relevant to an article about the religion as a whole - particularly when the person under discussion is not in power anymore.
As I and others have mentioned earlier, perhaps such a section belongs in an NST/NSA split article, but it does not belong here in my opinion. In fact, I am not convinced that it would even belong in that kind of article - since the accusations were post-split and did not in any way cause the split. Either way, the point is not what should go in that article, but what belongs here.
If you disagree about any of these points, or others mentioned below, then please feel free to discuss them here. Perhaps you will provide a strong counter-point or another relevant reason why this section should remain. If you revert the article without explanation, however, I will simply continue to delete the section. 128.239.111.80 (talk) 01:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent Reversion

message: I have put a fact tag (citation required) by the account of the LA court judgement because it is very hard for another editor to verify due to the difficulty of getting to the Los Angeles District Court. Has anyone got a more accessible source for this? ireneshusband (talk) 14:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  other sources for LA court judgement 

message: Usually Wikipedia articles have a section for "References in Popular Culture" (or something like that),  I just wanted to mention that the Nichiren Shoshu sect was featured in the 1973 film, "The Last Detail" starring Jack Nicholson.76.244.55.2 (talk) 01:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Last Detail 

message: I have not found any evidence towards the statement that Nichiren Shoshu is more widespread out of all other Nichiren Buddhism sects. In fact, the only evidence I've found is that the SGI is, coming in with 84 international constituents (http://www.sgi.org/about-us/sgi-facts/sgi-organizations-84-registered-constituent.html) in all 6 habitable continents with one or more centers in each of these areas (96 in the United States alone http://www.sgi-usa.org/sgilocations/results_list.php?pageno=1) versus their 22 temples outside of Japan (http://www.nst.org/an-introduction-to-nichiren-shoshu-buddhism/nichiren-shoshu-temples/). I'm deleting that statement. 66.177.72.141 (talk) 19:01, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nichiren Shoshu as the most widespread? 

message: I am a fairly bright and educated guy with a pretty good understanding of Buddhism and its history, as well as Taoism and Confucianism. Yet, I have read over both the articles on Nichiren Shōshū and Nichiren-shū and I cannot make heads or tails of either. Can someone please explain in plain language *what the central difference is in their beliefs*? I think something more like this is needed at the beginning of these articles. Thanks --Daniel (talk) 17:31, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Incomprehensible

message: This article states that Shakyamuni predicted the appearance of the Buddha of True Cause, in the Fifth Five Hundred Year Period following his passing. Where is this prediction?   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.220.102.221 (talk) 14:28, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Where did Shakyamuni predict the appearance of the Buddha of True Cause

message: I would like to see a little more elucidation of the specifics regarding the "doctrinal deviations and disputes" that led to the excommunication of Sōka Gakkai. Were there also political reasons? 207.98.198.13 (talk) 05:03, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Doctrinal deviations and disputes" & excommunication of Sōka Gakkai: examples? 

message: It is degoratory not just to SGI, but to Nichiren Buddhism in general. I'd recommend using a different source. Either one from SGI or NST. Steve (talk) 23:03, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Source/Reference 2 is derogatory

message: It is against Wikipedia rules to portray one side of a conflict as a "victim" and "good hearted" and "always doing the right thing". This is what the following part says and which I will delete soon:
"In 1991, Nichiren Shōshū officially excommunicated the leaders of its then-largest lay organization, Sōka Gakkai, after repeated attempts by the Priesthood to reconcile doctrinal differences and disputes between the two organizations. In 1997, those non-leaders who chose to remain as members of Sōka Gakkai, instead of returning to Nichiren Shōshū, were also excommunicated and lost the privilege of visiting Taiseki-ji "
It is incorrect to imply that the Soka Gakkai belonged to or was established by N.Shoshu. To describe the SG as " its [Nichiren ShoShu's] then -largest lay organisation" is not true. The SG was not established by Nichren ShoShu and was only affilated with the Head Temple. As for the excommunication event: to state that it occurred AFTER REPEATED ATTEMPTS BY THE PRIESTHOOD is a false statement. This statement amounts to bias and taking side in the Article, implying the "good guy behaviour", after "repeated attempts", which did not take place at all. This is a violation to Wikipedia rules. And it is not strange that the writer of this part failed to present a reference to support the claim. In reality, the Priesthood refused the offer from the Soka Gakkai to engage in dialogue - because SG members and leaders in the eyes of the Adminstration of N Shoshu - are 'inferior' to the Priesthood: 
"To talk about the priesthood and laity with a sense of equality 
are expressions of great conceit. In fact, they correspond to the five cardinal sins…” Nichiren Shoshu Head Temple's chief administrator, 
Nichijun Fujimoto, 12 Jan.1991.
Further: to describe the Soka Gakkai as that of "Leaders and non-leaders" is nonesensical and a product of a leadership-obssessed views. Why not say 'members of SG' instead of "non-leaders of SG"? 
Also, the following statement about SGI members " ...instead of returning to N ShoShu" - this word: "returning" - is questionable as the mentioned members of SGI were members of SGI before and after the split. The whole section about N Shoshu and SG needs a better wider and truthful account.SafwanZabalawi (talk) 02:00, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion of wrong information

message: This Gosho is not regarded as authentic in other schools of Nichiren Buddhism, including Nichiren Shū and Kempon Hokke. I believe it should either be left out, or needs to be re-worded. Steve Milburn (talk) 18:32, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: One Hundred and Six Articles

message: In the section about the Relationships between Nichiren Shoshu and SGI, a statement appeared (about the demand for absolute Obedience), and that SGI members instead apply to Daisaku Ideka. I usually ask for citation or reference before deleting a questionable statement but there is no need here for that, as the statement is baltantly false aimed at misleading Wikipedia readers.SafwanZabalawi (talk) 00:29, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Deleting a false statement

message: The crest depicted as Nichiren Shoshu’s logo is inaccurate (so is calling it a logo, but I won’t be fussy). The crane in the Nichiren Shoshu crest has three feathers nearly touching one another at the top, and features of the crane’s neck and head/face are different from what is shown here. Someone might want to fix that. Jim_Lockhart (talk) 15:41, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems you're right - the correct one looks something like this, does it? I've removed it in the meanwhile.Kiruning (talk) 02:06, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  “Logo” inaccurate