Talk:Portuguese-based creole languages

message: See Bart Jacob's article (Note 1), where it says:
"Ever since Lenz’ (1928) pioneering description of [Papiamentu], its mixed Spanish-Portuguese vocabulary has provoked heavy debate.  Lenz’ plea for [Papiamentu]’s Afro-Portuguese origins (“Su gramática … es ‘negro-portuguesa’ en primer lugar”...) received support from prominent scholars such as Navarro Tomás (1953), Van Wijk (1958), Valkhoff (1966) and Voorhoeve (1973), but linguists defending [Papiamentu]’s Spanish roots (e.g., Maduro 1965, 1966, 1969, DeBose 1975 or Rona 1976) have been similarly numerous. That the debate is far from settled is noted by Lipski...who asserts that up to present “scholars are … evenly divided as to the Spanish vs. Portuguese origins of Papiamento" (pg. 320)
For his part, Jacobs does think, Papiamentu stems from a Portuguese-based creole spoken in West Africa.  But, . . . that is his thesis.
The experts -- as he himself admits above -- are still divided 50-50, however.  This should be reflected in the article by:
# Clearly noting Papiamentu's disputed status as a Portuguese-based creole; or,
# Placing Papiamentu in its own section as a possible candidate for being a Portuguese-based creole.Mwidunn (talk) 19:13, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Papiamentu's Base Language Is Disputed

message: I hope that someone reads this and correct it's English.Pedro 19:57, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Please correct the English

message: I thought that Lingua Geral is mainly Amerindian, with only some influence of Portuguese (like Tetum?). -- Error 23:55, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I really dont know. I'll try to investigate. Thought there were Portuguese Creoles in that region, in that time. But I dont know, I didnt wrote that. But I'll investigate. Tetum is largely influenced by Portuguese, it hasn't "some" influence. But many facts, in there are correct.Pedro 01:02, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

text: Ciberduvidas da Língua Portuguesa
Os jesuítas compreenderam-no muito bem mais tarde, ao estudarem as línguas indígenas para melhor evangelizarem o Brasil, indo até conceber uma «língua geral», composta de elementos do tupi-guarani, do latim e do português, a qual seria acessível a todos. from Instituto Camões
The jesuits understood it very well later, they study the indigenous languages for a better evangelization of Brazil, they even had conceived a «Língua Geral» (General language), composed by elements of Tupi-Guarani, Latin and Portuguese, that was accessible to everyone.
Unclear. There were writen books about it. There's a way to look. Search for credible sources. There is much garbage on the net. Pedro 10:31, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Lingua Geral

message: Um, why is "Portuguese-influenced indigenous languages" in this article, given that they aren't creoles? - Mustafaa 22:54, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Mustafaa (Your nick sounds great), I just copied the Spanish Creole style. It has some importance, many believe, for instance, that Tetum is a Creole, other believe that will become in the near future. Portuguese influence is so large, that a Portuguese speaker understands some Tetum. A basic conversation can be made with some help. Pedro 11:40, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

text: I think that, since the limit can be unclear in some cases, people looking for some PIIL could look for them here. An explanation here is not out of place. -- Error 00:49, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portuguese-influenced indigenous languages 

message: Pedro’s statement that “Saying that Brazilian Portuguese dialects presents signs of decreoulization is the most distant from the truth. The spoken Portuguese dialects in Brazil are even more preserved than those of Portugal” and the corresponding text in the article is simply rubbish, his own opinion and nothing more. There is a debate about this, true, but who is Pedro to pronounce the answer? In my view of the literature (large amounts of which I can actually cite), the decreolization position is strongly favoured. Although the suggestion that a full creole existed in Brazil was made as early as 1933 by Renato Mendonça and Silva Neto spoke oddly of semi-creoles, Greg Guy first proposed a modern view of BP (in analogy with AAVE) as a decreolizing creole in his doctoral thesis and this has largely been taken seriously.  John Holm in particular has written extensively on this, developing a slightly more subtle concept (though to my mind problematic in other ways) of “partial restructuring”. Other creolists including Baxter have taken it seriously and even Naro admits its force. References below.  (Re isolate (quilombo) Afro-Brazilian creoles, it may postdate Pedro dogmatism, but Dante Lucchesi has now written on them, and there is quite a research project on them going on in the baiano universities.
For my money, dialects such as caipira dialect (particularly the pre-mass media form as documented by Amaral) are patently obviously radically restructured both in their grammars and their phonologies. That the speech of the urban elite shows strongly conservative traits — particularly, of course, in Rio where the Portuguese court was based as it fled Napoleon — has little or no relevance to the widely (though I admit not universally) accepted view that the vernaculars are either decreolized.
I propose to rewrite the entry making it more balanced: setting out the arguments both in favour and against the decreolization position and not stating my personal opinion as categorical truth.
* Baxter, Alan N., Dante Lucchesi & Maximiliano Guimerães. 1997. “Gender agreement as a ‘decreolizing’ feature of an Afro-Brazilian dialect.” Journal of Pidgin and Creole Languages 12(1):1–57.
* Guy, Gregory R. 1981. Sociolinguistic variation in Rio Portuguese: sound change as a cause of syntactic change. Doctoral thesis. University of Pennsylvania.
* Holm, John. 1987. “Creole influence on Popular Brazilian Portuguese.” In: Glenn G. Gilbert, ed. Pidgin and Creole Languages: Essays in memory of John E. Reinecke. Honolulu: University of Hawai‘i Press. pp. 406–429.
* Holm, John. 2009. “The genesis of the Brazilian vernacular: insights from the indigenization of Portuguese in Angola.” Papia: revista brasileira de estudos crioulos e similares 19:93–122.
* Lucchesi, Dante. 2008. “Africanos, crioulos e a língua portuguesa.” [“Africans, creoles, and the Portuguese language.”] In: Ivana Stolze Lima & Laura do Carmo, eds. História social da língua nacional. [A social history of the national language.] Rio de Janeiro: Edições Casa de Rui Barbosa. pp. 151–180.
Re “what is an anti-creole” — it is a fanciful term used largely by Hildo Couto and other Brazilian linguists. I don’t really understand what it’s supposed to be, and it has largely failed to take hold. (See Couto, H. H. 1992. Anti-crioulo. Papia 2(1):71-82.)
--Taguagringo (talk) 02:11, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opinionated, anyone? 

message: Need a definition. --Erauch 10:39, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
*there's no definition. I don't know if this a proper English word for Portuguese "Anti-Crioulo". it means it is the opposite of a Creole. This specific "creole language", was firstly confused to be a creole - superstract: Portuguese substract: Bantu. Other investigators later investigated this "creole" and they found superstract - bantu substract - Portuguese and called it "Anti-Crioulo". it means that native Portuguese speakers were engaiged in speaking a Bantu language, because they were natural portuguese speakers, they simply used bantu words with Portuguese background. Is it a Bantu Creole? I don't think so... -Pedro 11:57, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is an "anti-Creole"? 

message: * I don't know who changed the text so vastly, thatnow it has some serious incorrections. For instance the introduction is extremelly poor and biased... the geographic classification was also made by someone that didn't even read the article. Clean the article, sure, but read it first, then change it. --Pedro 14:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A few days ago I cleaned up a lot of articles on creoles, especially Portuguese-based ones --- standardizing names, splitting multi-language pages into separate articles, moving language-specific information to the respective articles, removing duplication, fixing format and syntax, adding more info from Googleland, etc.  (It was quite a lot of work; I expected to get at least a "thanks, but", but never mind...) Anyway, I tried hard not to erase any information, only move it to more appropriate places. If any got lost, it was an accident.As for this particular article: I did not use the previous geographic classification because it was just an arbitrary partition by geographic region. Arbitrary for arbitrary...There were some passages that I could not understand, and I had to make guesses in order to go on; probably some of the guesses were wrong, but I cannot take all the blame for them.  The situation of Portuguese-Indian creole languages, in particular, is still quite confusing, especially in Sri Lanka where I cannot even tell how many different "Portuguese creole" languages there are.A main source of confusion was the use of Portuguese or local names as if everybody knew what they meant, often very similar to ech other (and to other non-Portuguese creoles).  Another was the recurrent mix-up between ethnic groups and languages, that is still present in many articles.I would appreciate if you went through the various "Portuguese-based creole languages" and checked again the facts. It would also help to know something about each creole language other than their history; for example, the percentual composition of the lexicon, and the basic features of the syntax. Finally, it seems that there is a preoccupation in classifing every creole as either "Portuguese" (=interesting) or "not Portuguese" (=not interesting). This 0-1 classification is not scientifically meaningful, and it smells of lusophonic chauvinism or national/international political agendas. Let's take a broader perspective here. After all a creole is by definition a grown-up language on its own, with drivers license, credit card, and no set time to come home. It is no longer a "child" or "property" of any of its parent languages.  All the best, Jorge Stolfi 06:35, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Pedro, you are correct in saying that the Portuguese-based creoles of the Americas should be discussed right after those of Africa, since they were (at least in part) transplants of creoles that had already been formed in Guinea and Cape Verde. (At least that is what the articles claim, I have no way to confirm or deny that.) I will rearrange the sections. As for putting all of Asia together, that doesn't seem so logical to me. From what I read in the articles, the Indo-Portuguese creoles were based on Indian languages (besides Portuguese), whereas those of Indonesia and Malacca were based on Malay; and these Malay-based creoles influenced Macanese after the Dutch takeover.  So there seems to be no good reason to join India with Indonesia+China; and the length of the India section is a good reason to keep it separate.On the other hand, the "Indian" languages comprise Indo-European in the north, and Dravidian in the south; and these two families are as different from each other as they are from Malay. Were any of the Indo-Portuguese creoles based on northern (Indo-European) Indian languages?  If so, perhaps we should put another section split, or at least point out which creoles are in each class.Finally, I think that it is is quite reasonable to mention Lanc-Patuá, Karipuna, and Cafundó, precisely to warn the reader that, even though they are in Bazilian territory, they are not Portuguese-based. (That is what I meant by "lusophonic chauvinism": we should spend some bytes to show how Portuguese things — in particular the Portuguese creoles — fit within the global picture and connect to non-Portuguese things. And not just cut out the lusophonic part of the map, and pretend that the rest of the world is not there.)All the best, Jorge Stolfi 00:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes to the article

message: Pedro and Pedro: First, there is no animosity from this side, but unfortunately e-mail does not properly convey emotions.  As for Cafundó and the French creoles, once again, they are there precisely to warn the reader that they are NOT Portuguese-based to any significant extent; because otherwise a reader may think that they are, because of their location (and this confusion inded happened to previous editors of this article, didn't it?). A good article must include that sort of contrastive and comparative information too.
Again I invite you to adopt a broader perspective. When writing for Wikipedia one must use a different approach than when writing a private homepage about a topic that one likes. One must try to see things as a generic reader from anywhere in the world, not just as a lusophone reader.  From that perspective, for example, "Kristang language" is a better name for the language than "Cristão", and "Anobonense language" is better than "Fá d'Ambó" --- even though the opposite may be true for the pt: Wikipedia, or a paper published on a journal devoted to lusophonic linguistics.
For the same reason, one must be careful not to put exaggerated, sentimental, or apologetic claims about the subject, because they will inevitably be annoying (to say the least) to readers from Inner Mingrelia, who cannot be expected to share the author's feelings.  For example, in the Kristang people article, it says:
:Portuguese sea captains were also renowned for their cruelty (perhaps a psychological defense mechanism) for good reason - the perils of the sea lay open not only to other European competitors to the spice market (i.e. the Dutch and French), but sea pirates from every race and creed.
IN fact, this sentence arguably violates Wikipedia guidelines about neutral point of view (NPOV). But there are several other sentences scattered through the Portuguese-related articles that are technically NPOV, but still noticeably biased or parochial.
For instance, the articles about the Kristang and other creole people discuss in great detail their historical connections to Portugal and the Portuguese aspects of their culture, but do not seem to care much about their present situation as a people, or the non-Portuguese aspects.  It seems in fact that once a former Portuguesoid community loses its Portuguese character it "falls out of the radar's range", even if it continues to be a thriving separate community.  I.e. the current article Kristang people does not seem to be really about the Kristang people, but about "Aspects of the Kristang history and culture that have to do with Portugal".  Ditto for most of the other articles on communities with Portuguese ancestry.  Do you see what I mean?
Anyway, the good thing is that you already put a lot of good contents in all these pages. We just have some cleanup work to do...  
All the best, Jorge Stolfi 06:08, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dominant language

message: :The Portuguese word for "creole" is crioulo, it derives from criar (to raise) and olo (house - a typical African house in the Portuguese African colonies). Since most of the African creole speakers had a Portuguese father and an African mother, they were raised (criados) by their African mother, not as slaves, in the olos, thus crioulos, and were servants in the house of their fathers
This sounds like folk etymology to me. Is there a source for it? FilipeS 20:27, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Origin of the name

message: I would like to ask to the person who added the information that there´s a Portuguese creole language in Barbados could tell me anything more about the subject. I am not telling that it´s wrong, just couldn´t find more information about it, aside a controversial website named ´Blacks and Jews Newspage´
Emerson —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Domaleixo (talk • contribs) 16:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portuguese creole in Barbados 

message: Although Ethnologue calls it "Upper Guinea Creole" the term seems to be incorrect. The Portuguese classifications  call "Upper Guinea Creoles" to all the Creoles spoken in the Upper Guinea region. TenIslands 11:38, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Upper Guinea Creole" 

message: Shouldn't modern galician be on the list? As a spanish dialect of portuguese origin?
:No. --Ptcamn 23:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Modern Galician

message: Before someone edit AGAIN my text about Reiverense Portunhol, please, read the articles below. There´s IN FACT a portuguese (one or more than one) language in Uruguay, technically named ´dialectos portugueses del Uruguay´. People in Uruguay name it Bayano, Brasilero, Fronterizo or Portuñol (not to be confused with the term used for the mixture of Portuguese and Spanish in other frontiers of Brazil).
ARTICLES:
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:PqQlujkVKbMJ:www.anep.edu.uy/actualidad/srp07032201.pdf+dialectos+portugueses+del+Uruguay&hl=pt-BR&ct=clnk&cd=10
http://cienciaecultura.bvs.br/pdf/cic/v57n2/a21v57n2.pdf
http://www.labeurb.unicamp.br/elb/americanas/dialetos_portugueses_uruguai.html
Emerson
:I know that Riverense Portunhol exists. However, I am not aware of any linguists who regard it as a creole language. This article is for Portuguese-based creoles only, not for Portuguese dialects, which is a different thing, and already has its own article.  FilipeS 18:53, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dialectos portugueses del Uruguay 

message: About the Riverense Portunhol, I don't know if it really is a Creole. But I am pretty sure that in Portugal and in the Portuguese speaking African countries the word "Crioulo" means Creole language, and not just the Cape Verdean Creole. If it is needed to be specified, then it's said Creole from Cape Verde, Creole from Guinea-Bissau, Creole from São Tomé, and so on.In Cape Verde, the word "Crioulo" (either name or adjective) may also refer to anything from Cape Verde.As far as I know, there is only one Creole in Guinea-Bissau, and not "Guinean Portuguese creoles".Ten Islands 18:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC
:Ten Islands, there are MORE THAN ONE "DPU". People uses standard portuguese, dialects and creoles in northern Uruguay. All Portuguese-based. All these languages were labeled "DPU".
:Emerson
You are correct about the meaning of "crioulo" in Portugal. In linguistics, it means "creole". When nothing else is said, it's assumed that one is speaking of Capeverdean Creole. FilipeS 18:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The word "Crioulo" 

message: O.K., clearly there's a strong difference of opinion here, with one editor repeatedly adding this language to the list of creoles, while others remove them with the argument that they are not creoles. I have noticed, however, that according to the article Saramaccan, Cafundó, and Simple Portuguese are also not proper creoles. Since what is and what isn't a creole may be in the eye of the classifier to some extent, I've had a change of heart, and am suggesting that the Uruguayan variety of Portunhol be included in the article, provided someone comes up with a reference which calls it a "creole". FilipeS 15:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi there, Filipe. Regarding the classification of Portunhol as a Creole language, I’d sugest the reading of the discussion in the Portuguese page (assuming that anyone interested can read Portuguese...). Regarding the other edits, first, I’ve tryed to explain in the article itself why those other languages are not considered Creoles, and second, some Interwikis were wrong: the Interwikis for Alemannic, Esperanto and German directed to a List of Creole Languages; the Interwiki for Bulgarian directed to Cape Verdean Creole.However, I will try to keep an open mind, and keep on waiting for some information (opinion?) regarding the classification of Papiamentu (Portuguese or Spanish Creole?), Saramaccan (really Portuguese Creole?), Pequeno Português and Cupópia (really Creoles?). See you. Ten Islands 17:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Concerning Uruguayan Portunhol

message: Hi guys,
just wondering whether tetum praca can be considered a Portuguese Creole or not, Ethnologue seems to believe it
but I feel it's a lingua franca that spread out from a certain dialect(Tetum Tenrik) with a large use of Portuguese vocabulary. Anybody want to clarify this for me?Domsta333 (talk) 08:52, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tetum Praca 

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thread_title:  External links modified