Talk:Firestone Tire and Rubber Company/Archive 1

message: I've added mention of the infamous 2000/2001 tire recall that was big news at the time, but I'm wondering it really belongs here, or over on the Bridgestone page.  On one hand, there were "Firestone" tires, but on the other hand, the problems happened after the Bridgestone/Firestone merger.  Thoughts?  -- Kaszeta 14:28, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: This comment was deleted by User:207.45.131.11 originally. Best wishes, Travb (talk) 10:57, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Wilderness AT Tire Recall

message: This article needs help. I've deleted a big chunk because it's unreferenced and it contradicts itself. Some of it may or may not be true, but somebody needs to formulate it in a way that makes logical sense. I'm also deleting the reference to "Ford and Firestone mending fences", since, again, there is no reference, and the public record would indicate otherwise -- the NHTSA, in its investigation, found in favour of Ford. --Rhombus 18:30, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article needs help 

message: More needs to be said about the corporate history of the company. Particularly the 1978 Firestone 500 tire recall , 2000 Firestone tire recall  and the Liberia controversy . Cedars 08:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You need to write this yourself, asking someone else to do it on the talk page almost never works.Travb (talk) 15:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: corporate history

message: Wikiedit:
:During the 1970s, the Firestone 500 steel-belted radials where known to separate from the tread, usually at high speeds, due to water seeping under the tread, which caused the belting to rust and the treading to separate. This caused dozens of deaths, and Firestone blamed consumers, before recalling 10 million tires.
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.06/start.html?pg=9:
:These steel-belted radials allowed water to seep under the tread, which caused the belting to rust and the tread to separate, typically at high speeds. Dozens of deaths later, Firestone blamed consumers, then recalled 10 million tires.
A person can rewrite an article in their own words. I can't get into this, because I promised not to, but I will rewrite this further. 
Signed:Travb (talk) 21:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyright violation?

message: I noticed the TV jingle was re-added. I don't think this adds much to the article and, if it must be included in Wikipedia, might be better served by a sub-article. Are there any objections to it being deleted again? Cedars 06:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added it minus the gawdy quotation marks someone had put in at one point. Maybe it could be a sub-article. Then in about a week, someone will decide to merge it back into this one because it would be so small. Also, I don't see why you have a problem with it. Wahkeenah 07:50, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never heard the Firestone jingle, but I have heard of Firestone, I can't see why it is relevant to this article at all. If a sub-article is inappropriate maybe we could link to it off-site? Cedars 01:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Before you go zapping it again, think about this: Wikipedia has a spinoff called wikiquotes. Would that be a place for jingles of all kinds? Or would it make more sense to have a page devoted to jingles? Or is there already one somewhere in this behemoth of a website? Wahkeenah 01:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm happy for it to be moved to Wikiquotes. Cedars 02:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But is that an appropriate venue for jingles? I'm not even sure who to ask. Hmmm... maybe the guy that was hassling me about World Series quotes. I'll look into that. Wahkeenah 02:10, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  TV Jingle 

message: Please cite a source for this addition:
:In 2001 Bridgestone/Firestone severed its ties to Ford citing a lack of trust. The lack of trust came about concerns that Ford had not heeded warnings by Bridgestone/Firestone relating to the design of the Ford Explorer. 
Thanks, Travb (talk) 03:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ford has since stopped equipping its pickup trucks, SUVs and full-sized vans with Firestone tires. However, passenger cars such as the Ford Focus and Mercury Cougar bore Firestone tires as original equipment.
I removed it again, because I also cannot find this information online. Travb (talk) 00:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Source please

message: Another user delted this:
:Ford has since stopped equipping its pickup trucks, SUVs and full-sized vans with Firestone tires. However, passenger cars such as the Ford Focus and Mercury Cougar bore Firestone tires as original equipment.
I removed it again, because I also cannot find this information online. Travb (talk) 00:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Source?

message: Deleted for WP:RS:
The www.stopfirestone.org website states that Firestone's request to transfer the case to Indianapolis, Indiana from California was granted in April 2006.   
If someone wants to find a source for this, it would be grand...I have done enough with the page today. 00:27, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion

message: I restored the following infromation which was deleted:
The Firestone Tire and Rubber Company was founded by Harvey Firestone in 1900. "What Nevin has been doing is liquidating pieces of the company" in order to boost Firestone's stock price, said Donald F. DeScenza, an analyst with Nomura Securities. "It was a conscious, deliberate plan he has followed from the outset -- it was his mandate."
When John J. Nevin became president in 1980, Firestone began selling off unprofitable plants and began buying back the company's stock.  Firestone boosted the number of its automotive repair shops, which account for nearly 20% of the company's $3.9 billion in 1988 annual sales. The company also relocated its headquarters away from Akron, Ohio -- the traditional home of the nation's rubber and tire-making industry -- to Chicago. The company was purchased by the Japanese tire manufacturer Bridgestone in 1988.  "Firestone's new chairman recently sold off unprofitable plants and began buying back the company's stock. The shares responded to the repurchase plan, moving from $10 to $19 in three years."     But Nevin, who became chief executive in September, 1980, moved decisively. He closed down a third of Firestone's U.S. tire capacity -- most of it in outmoded nonradials. He slashed inventories and slow-moving tire lines and sold much of the company's foreign interests as well as many U.S. nontire businesses. From 1979 to 1983, the number of Firestone's U.S. salaried employees fell by 27%. A $700 million debt reduction pared its debt-to-equity ratio to a healthy 28%.   The combined Bridgestone/Firestone North American operations are now based in Nashville, Tennessee.
Signed: Best wishes, Travb (talk) 00:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Information restored

message: Version one:
During the 1970s, the Firestone 500 steel-belted radials were known to separate from the tread, usually at high speeds, due to water seeping under the tread, which caused the belting to rust and the treading to separate.  Joan Claybrook, who was the Administrator of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) stated before the Transportation Subcommittee United States Senate Committee on Appropriations on September 6, 2000, that, "there was a documented coverup by Firestone of the 500 defect, spurred by the lack of a Firestone replacement tire."  
In March 1978, NHTSA announced publicly a formal investigation into defects of the Firestone 500. Firestone first asserted that only 400,000 tires produced at the Decatur plant were defective. But the NHTSA investigation found that the tread separation defect was a design performance defect affecting all Firestone 500's. After forty-one deaths, and after Firestone initially blamed consumers (improper repairs, rough use, or under-inflation), on October 20, 1978, Firestone then recalled ten million tires.    Quote: "Firestone balked at cooperating".
Version two (fact tags added):
Firestone 500 tread separation problem
During the 1970s, Firestone experienced a major problem with one of its tire sizes. The Firestone 500 steel-belted radials began to show signs of separation of the tread at high speeds. While the cause was never proven, it is believed that the failure of bonding cements used by Firestone to hold the tread to the tire carcass, may have allowed water to penetrate the tire which in turn my have caused the internal steel wire to corrode. In March 1978, NHTSA publicly announced a formal investigation into defects of the Firestone 500. The NHTSA investigation found that the tread separation problem was most probably a design defect affecting all Firestone 500's and ordered the recall of 400,000 tires from the Decatur, Illinois plant. Following Congressional hearings into the Firestone 500 problems that were blamed for 34 deaths, on October 20 1978, Firestone ordered the recall of over 7 million tires.Firestone 500 Recall Time line
New version:
In 1975 Firestone attempted to fix a tread separation problem in the radial 500 tires caused by moisture getting inside the tire and corroding the steel.   In March 1978, NHTSA announced publicly a formal investigation into defects of the Firestone 500. Firestone first asserted that only 400,000 tires produced at the Decatur, Illinois plant were defective. But the NHTSA investigation found that the tread separation defect was a design performance defect affecting all Firestone 500's. After forty-one deaths, and after Firestone initially blamed consumers (improper repairs, rough use, or under-inflation), on October 20, 1978, Firestone then recalled ten million tires.Joan Claybrook, who was the Administrator of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) stated before the Transportation Subcommittee United States Senate Committee on Appropriations on September 6, 2000, that, "there was a documented coverup by Firestone of the 500 defect, spurred by the lack of a Firestone replacement tire."  Quote: "Firestone balked at cooperating".
signed: Best wishes, Travb (talk) 00:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 1970s scandal

message: Orginal, no sources, unverified, unsourced POV highlighted:
From the start, Firestone worked relentlessly to improve quality and meet the needs of his customers. His efforts and integrity paid off when in 1906 Firestone tires were chosen by Henry Ford for the first mass-produced automobiles in America. 
To put Firestone tires to the ultimate test and publicize their superior performance, Firestone began what would become a legendary history in car racing by entering and winning the first Indy 500. Cars driven on Firestone tires would go on to win more than 50 checkered flags at the fabled brickyard.
Newer, more encyclopedic version:
In 1906 Firestone was chosen by Henry Ford for the first mass-produced automobiles in America.
Firestone tires were used to win the first Indy 500.  Cars driven on Firestone tires would go on to win more than 50 checkered flags at the Indy 500.
signed: Best wishes, Travb (talk) 00:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro

message: The following has been removed from this page :
:However, in the late 1970s Firestone received tremendous amounts of negative publicity and was the subject of numerous lawsuits over an allegedly defectively-designed automotive tire, the steel-belted radial Firestone 500. The company never fully recovered from this, and eventually was forced to sell out to a Japanese rival, Bridgestone, which acquired it in 1988. The combined Bridgestone/Firestone North American operations are now based in Nashville, Tennessee. 
:The family had decided in 1984 to look for a purchaser and began liquidating assets at that time. 
:The company was purchased off the stock market by Japanese in 1988 by formally offering to buy stock at $80 per share by Bridgestone. March 21, 1984 was the formal offer to purchase. August 1st, the Bridgestone Corporation (Japan) announced it’s intent to integrate the corporate assets from Japan, the U.S. and Canada into Bridgestone. This pattern continued with other assets for almost a decade.
:Bridgestone was started by Firestone, but had been previously bought out by the Japanese and was therefore a separate entity. 
:The combined Bridgestone/Firestone North American operations are now based in Nashville, Tennessee.
:However, in these law suits Firestone proved it was not tire design, rather either the result of under inflated tires and the Ford suspension. While Ford broke relations with Firestone for a period of time, that relationship has been healed and Ford is currently purchasing Firestone tires again. 
Best wishes, Travb (talk) 10:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The memory hole

message: I would like to create a "/" page Firestone Tire and Rubber Company/Draft which we can use as a sandbox for content and format and then once agreed those edits could be moved to the main article. Your thoughts please.
Mobile 01Talk 22:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: First Suggestion

message: As there is the potential for quite a few editors to want input into this, I would suggest leaving the main page protection in place for now until we have a first draft of the sandbox agreed on. Your thoughts please. 
Mobile 01Talk 22:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Second Suggestion

message: Mobile how do you square the comment above: 
"As I have stated on numerous occasions, I want this article to be factual and Neutral."
With your edit history of deleting all controversial material from the page, and when the page was protected, creating a "dupe" page and redirecting to that new page? You clearly stated your reason for creating the "dupe" page: "Removed from this page are all the negative comments relating to Firestone USA."
My suggestion is this: I think this page should be merged with Bridgestone, if the Bridgestone New Zealand page can state the history of Firestone as its own history, I think the Bridgestone article can do the same.  
I studied this page because despite the 1988 Bridgestone buy out of Firestone, User:Mobile 01 argues repeatedly that Firestone is not Bridgestone.
Also,  User:Mobile_01 you stated above that you created the Firestone table, but the 203 anon created the Firestone table, in which you immediatly began to edit.  Are you now acknowledging that you are in fact the 203 anon? If so, there should be a note on your page or somewhere that the 203 anon was booted for disruption on the Smallville (Season 5) page. I don't know what the policy is, can someone tell me? 
Also, FYI the past WP:NPA violations are in the past, but any future WP:NPA, I will file another WP:ANI including the old and the new WP:NPA violations.  Calling other editors "dumb" is not allowed on wikipedia, and I shouldn't have to tolerate this continued abuse from yourself, or User:Morton devonshire. I have called neither of you any names, and I expect the same courteousy. Travb (talk) 02:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: comments to address

message: I have replaced the message that you claim was archived while still current, and it is shown below. As you seem to truly believe that this message is relevant to the discussion of the article and have made such a fuss over it being archived. Having read it again, I still maintain that it has no relevence to the article or discussion, however if you would like to indicate exactly which part of this message is designed to assist with topic discussion and article improvement I will be glad to retract my comment.
 Mobile 01Talk 00:32, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: [These comments are above, thanks for restoring all the comments, and allowing the comments on this talk page to remain] Travb (talk) 02:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Replace Travb Message

message: I started one too. I do not support merging Firestone into Bridgestone. I do not support renaming. Phillip-Morris is known as something else now, as they didn't want to be associated purely with tobacco. I don't even know the name. I haven't checked - but I KNOW theres still a Wiki article on Phillip Morris. Same with Arthur_Andersen and Accenture Same with Western_Airlines Here's my draft version. FAAFA - Fairness & Accuracy For All 10:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: FAAFA Draft Article

message: :Image:FSStorefront.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 23:26, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:FSStorefront.png

message: There are two issues:
*) Even if treated in another article we need to mention it here because it is relevant to the company.
*) We cannot trim too much since then the section where the CEO talks about their measures against child labor would be too heavy. To solve that we could trim both sections but between trimming two sections and leaving things as they are I'd rather leave things as they are. Brusegadi 01:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't this article proof that international corporations & the US wage system causes world poverty? It proves it to me. Whebn we end it we'll quickly end world poverty to end human suffering. Sundiii (talk) 20:02, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Labor 

message: :Image:Bridgestone Firestone logo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 05:14, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Bridgestone Firestone logo.png

message: Just a quick explanation for my reformatting. I'm fundamentally opposed to criticism sections and Travb's renaming of the section triggered my memory on why I didn't like that section. In keeping with that, the contents within the section are large enough to constitute their own sections without "hiding" them by using the semicolon technique, so I just eliminated the section header and turned all the semicolons into section breaks. The military contract section really isn't large enough to have its own section, so just eliminated the header and smooshed it into the "early history" section. I also sent the jingle section to the bottom since it really is just a "factoid" so, not that important to the all around article. Other than that the reformatting was relatively minor cleanup fixes.--Bobblehead (rants) 18:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reformatting 

message: The image :Image:Bridgestone logo.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --23:14, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Bridgestone logo.png

message: It is unclear why Anne Firestone Ball links to this article. Either development of the article is required to include Anne Firestone Ball's role in this company, or the link should be removed and a stub created for Anne Firestone Ball. Thelema418 (talk) 07:30, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anne Firestone Ball  

message: The current Liberia section (recently updated to reflect the Nov 18, 2014 airing of a PBS documentary on the subject) has a few areas that can be improved.
The current section highlights three specific issues:
* The usage of the Firestone plantation by Charles Taylor's army to assault Monrovia in 1992
* The 2005 ACTA case brought by  International Labor Rights Fund against the company
* The 2014 PBS Frontline and ProPublica investigation and history of the Liberia Civil War, and Firestone's involvement therein
In my restructure, I worked very hard to make sure that I maintain all three of these points, while adding significantly more salient information to give a good overview of the subject, which can then be more fully explored on the Firestone Natural Rubber Company main page. The section is currently written such that it goes very specific on the topics listed without providing any actual information, instead just repeating statements made by individuals without giving context on the "why" of a quote. I've worked to fix this, but happy to collaborate with any others.
The Pro Publica piece in particular is an excellent history of the Liberian Civil War and how major companies in Liberia (specifically firestone) dealt with it. The only thing I would desire from it is that they would release the State Department Cables and other documents that they base their story on, since there is so little primary source material available for this period in Liberia's history or in US-Liberia relations (wikileaks, for example, doesn't have much from the 1990s). Stefannagey (talk) 20:35, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improving quality of information available regarding Firestone's Operations in Libera 

message: thumb|right|This image of an African-American Firestone employee was deleted and deleted again by this contributor who claims the photo is "promotional".
The "website" parameter of a citation should not contain an external link, per Help:CS1 errors. The actual citation can still be accessed/checked via the first blue link in the References section (i.e. the bit between the quotation marks). As explained in the edit summary, I deleted the images because I felt they add no value to the article and border on promotion. DH85868993 (talk) 01:26, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough about the citation parameters, but the images belong in the article. Firestone is a company, and a company is not just about tires or services performed but about its people. Take a good look at this article after you removed the images. There are no people in it: there is an image of tires, one of a car, an early storefront, an ad from 1919 -- so why no people? In my view, the article is unbalanced with a bias towards things. I'm a customer of Firestone not a paid promoter; I like my images being in Wikipedia, that's all. What you may or may not know is that there are few images of people in Wikipedia, given all the permissions involved and privacy concerns. When I do get permission, such as these kind representatives gave me, I take the photos. That's all it is: employees smiling. It is not advertising saying "buy this!" or "15% discount!" or "Sale today!" -- it is just people. I don't think these images are going to make people run out and buy Firestone tires. Plus, you are edit warring by your repeated removals here and here. That's two strikes. I don't edit war so I won't revert you but I strongly suggest that you should please restore the images. And there's one other aspect to this that I hope is not a factor when you removed this image of an African-American -- that your repeated removals have nothing to do with the skin color of the employee, that this is not an example of what comedian Chris Rock might describe as sorority racism, but inevitably I will feel obligated to raise this issue elsewhere in forums if this image is not restored.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 11:46, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I have restored the images, even though I still believe they are not necessary. I find your suggestion that one of the images was removed for racist reasons quite offensive. DH85868993 (talk) 23:31, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for being reasonable and I apologize for the insinuation. I do not think your motive was racist, but I am becoming sensitive (probably because of the Chris Rock monologue?) that it seems to work out, in Wikipedia, that there is not enough inclusion of women, minorities, LGBTers. I am a white male and in the past, because of my white-male luck of the draw, I've had an easier time of things, and I feel a bit guilty about this, and in the future, as best I can, will try to be fair everywhere I can. Thanks again and I appreciate your kindness.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 23:58, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the apology. No hard feelings. DH85868993 (talk) 00:19, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rationale for deletions 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070310222630/http://www.redstone.army.mil/history/systems/corporal/welcome.html to http://www.redstone.army.mil/history/systems/corporal/welcome.html
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thread_title:  External links modified