Talk:Blacksmith

message: I'm in the process of moving some journal entries from the last several Summers of reenactments and smithing into a Wikibook. From that I want to link to several entries here. Both this one and some in Metalwork.
For those who might be interested the link to that book is:
 
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Down%27n%27dirty_Blacksmithing
It is, admittedly, rougher than I care for, but it's a start.
I'm hoping that as I pass the links to other smiths I know that this will get more input.
My hope for the Wikibook is that it is a point of entry into these other articles and vice versa. It's intent is to be as hands-on as I can make an e-book.
Some of that hinges on the weather getting warm so I can make some pictures of what is going on in the book. Until the ground thaws I'll work on the words and pages.
--Erraunt 17:17, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Wikibook on Smithing 

message: I'm going to go ahead and 'be bold' and fix some information on this page I believe to be inaccurate. But I don't happen to have an authoritative source at hand, so I won't object if someone elects to roll back my changes, provided there is justification.
1)Traditional japanese samurai swords were for use primarily against unarmored opponents; were used in slashing and draw-cut techniques that do not jar the steel overmuch: were forged using (often) very poor japanese steels which led to the folding techniques; were not usually tempered in the same manner as western weapons.
2)Blaksmiths use all sorts of blowtorches, not just oxyacetylene (my teacher uses oxy-propane, for example). I'm making this ref less specific.
3)While its true that low-carbon wrought iron is easier to forge weld than mild steel or carbon steel, all are readily forge-weldable (I have done it myself, as a beginner). 
Overall I'd like to see expansion of this article with more in-depth information about various techniques.
--Leperflesh 20:32, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good edits, thank you! KarlBunker 21:39, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: errors

message: Can someone confirm whether the following is true? I'd heard that in ancient times, blacksmiths were often hobbled (intentially crippled) by their villages to ensure they did not leave. The reason for this was that they were so valuable to a community that their departure meant economic/technological doom for a community. 
I had also heard that this is the reason why Hephaestos (sp?) is shown as crippled in the greek myths. Any references on this? If this is true I think it would be an excellent addition to this article since it deomonstrates how incredibly important blacksmiths were to communities. Thanks Hu Gadarn 18:46, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: So anyway, i went ahead and corrected stuff like haz and blaksmifa'z in da houze and such, but im not even sure the bit of article is even relevant..
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Blacksmith&action=edit§ion=14
Perhaps some woking by someone who KNOWs would be good? 82.38.28.177 14:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism? 

message: I believe that being technically detailed in the explanation of a complex process can only be a benefit to Wikipedia in general as well as helping those who come here for information perhaps come away with something more than could be found in another place.  What do you all think?  Patris Magnus 01:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A lot of discussion of heat treatment isn't appropriate to, or necessary for, this article. There's an article on heat treatment which could be expanded. If you're eager to write about it, why not put it in the correct article? KarlBunker 03:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree: heat treatment should be included in this article. Heat treatment of steels and iron is a necessary and intrinsic part of the craft of blacksmithing. Furthermore, the article heat treatment is more geared to industrial and metallurgical methods which are not blacksmith related, require equipment and technology beyond that found in smithies, and apply to more metals (such as aluminum alloys) than are the subject of blacksmithing.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.37.58.28 (talk) 07:38, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Heat Treating

message: Can some improved pictures be used on this page? Here's my key concerns: (i) they all appear to be from one source (yet I believe there is more than one blacksmith); (ii) the # of photos is too many for what they claim to convey (two pictures are almost identical ("a blacksmith at work" and "hot metal"); and, (iii) some of the pictures are unclear ("a blacksmith's fire"). Thanks, Hu Gadarn 18:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am working on additional photos for the Blacksmith and related tools pages. I think the above points are right on the money.Fciron 19:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That was my plan. I am new to wikipedia, so I go off on long howto tangents. Thanks for the categories.Fciron 05:15, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quality of pictures could be better 

message: While the page does have substantial info on blacksmithing, the context is... well... unusual, let's say. I'm not sure this is an appropriate link? --Leperflesh 21:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Post-apocalyptic Blacksmith link?

message: I was recently at a crafts fair-type thing (if you know what I mean) and I was watching a blacksmith there who said using a chisel to make imprints and delicate designs on the iron/steel was called facing.  Now I'm sorry if this was mentioned before, if I didn't see it in the article, or the blacksmith was just kind of bored and made stuff up, but should this be added? BlueX511 20:16, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Facing?

message: I was coming to this article hoping to find information on when blacksmiths started to decline in numbers significantly to get an idea when the last blacksmiths would have existed in a town, but there is practically no information in that regard.  I'd highly encourage someone who knows more history in this subject to contribute to it.  Thanks. -- Suso 02:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Really lacking on historic content 

message: I visited this page after some time. While I don't own it I do feel some ownership toward it as I was one of the early contributors. So much vandalism and unreferenced citations! I don't know when I can get back to this to give it the thorough edit it needs, but please, while we should "be bold" cite your source at least if you're going to change what has been written. Some of the early contributors are practicing smiths and do know what they're about.
Erraunt (talk) 22:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: What Happened?

message: The definition of terms does not belong in the history/mythology section. I suggest either a new section for it, or moving it into The Blacksmith's Materials section (since all the terms defined, are of materials); or, just removing it, since the entire purpose of wikilinking words is to provide external definitions of them. --Leperflesh (talk) 22:05, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: definition of terms

message: Does noting that Blacksmiths produce "sex utensils" add much to the article?  It may be true, but I don't think making sex toys constitute such a major element of the blacksmiths art that it needs mentioning so soon.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.28.194 (talk) 21:58, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: untitled

message: Is the salary really over 9000? 11:22, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Salary 

message: The Blacksmith's of Medieval times, were merchants, because they made goods, to sell.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.211.242 (talk) 20:52, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Medieval Blacksmith's part on the Fuedal Pyramid 

message: This article needs reorganization and the layout needs to be fixed.  Why is a Blacksmith's Striker the first thing talked about for example?  Some basic high school English-class stuff needs to be done for this article.
Also, somehow there are three "blue edits" right next to each other and it can't easily be seen what each refers to, maybe this has something to do with all those pictures crammed together up on the top right.  I'm sure I could fix it, but it would take hours and it's not my subject anyway so I'm "not gonna do it".  :-)  Some one please fix it.  
Also please remove the stuff that, while interesting, doesn't have much to do with the subject.
Yours anonymously today,
71.174.196.21 (talk) 04:33, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mangled-up formatting and organization 

message: Blacksmithering is not a real word. Where did it come from? Can’t you use the correct one smithing or even the fairly dubious but more elegant blacksmithing?
Additionally in manufacturing the term "black" is used describe metal whose finish has been left untreated or unaltered since the forging process; compare it with Bright finish. Nice enough article otherwise.
BeckenhamBear (talk) 16:34, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blacksmithering 

message: I'm new to this side of Wikipedia, and I wasn't certain if I should have posted this as an edit to the "additions" thing or what.
First Addition: Griswold, the blacksmith of Tristrum in Diablo I. Diablo's a classic game that most gamers have played and will agree that Griswold is a notable character. Sure, he has no real significance in the first game beyond being a blacksmith, but he's one a lot of people know.
Second Addition: The smock/apron that the blacksmiths wear. Is it made of anything beyond basic cloth? I don't know what would be added there, but some small detail should be added by someone who does know.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.250.203 (talk) 14:18, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the addition of griswold is notable, seeing how he doesn't have an article. The apron is a good addition, and its usually made from leather, I believe. Wizard191 (talk) 18:11, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two additions 

message: I removed the section because this article is dying from scope creep. This article should be discussing the main points of being a blacksmith, their history, etc.; not the intricacies of each process and material. That's what links are for. It's one thing to say they work steel, copper alloys, etc., but it's another to explain what makes steel different from white cast iron. As such, the whole section should go, along with a lot of the processes. Wizard191 (talk) 13:02, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd support the materials section (mostly to distinguish wrought iron from steel), but that section was too long. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I support a general tuneup of the article, but as a person coming in here from the horse and farrier articles, who knows nothing about metal forging, a summary of the concepts and terms is appropriate, and certainly the addition of some "Main" and "see also" links would be good. I have restored the blanked section until we sort out how much needs to stay and what can go.  I also tried to re-kill some of the overwikilinking that I agree was a problem.  Montanabw(talk) 17:32, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that more main links need to be included, however, I don't see anything that's redeemable in the "The blacksmith's materials" section. Wizard191 (talk) 18:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Au contraire!  To someone with no knowledge of metallurgy, a brief summary, such as that one, explaining the different types of metal a blacksmith uses is quite appropriate.  If you think it is overly detailed, it could be chopped, but my whole issue here is that the section provides a useful summary to those of us who need to know, but don't necessarily need to research the entire topic via wikilinks.   My take:  rewrite, don't kill.  Montanabw(talk) 02:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  ERD 

message: The section on Shrinking reads: "Shrinking, while similar to upsetting ... "  This is a poor construction at best, as Upsetting is not defined until further down the article. I'm not well versed in subject matter;  I'll leave the editing to someone more knowledgeable. Thanks,  Karl gregory jones (talk) 22:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just removed the whole section. I've never come across the term shrinking in this context, and couldn't find it in any of my reference books. If someone can provide a reliable reference for its inclusion then they can bring it back, but the section was confusingly written and not super notable. Kierkkadon (talk) 15:32, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Shrinking is a rare technique, because it's hard to do it well. It's in standard textbooks though. Mostly a smith would avoid the need for it as much as possible, by not getting a piece to a point where it needs to be shrunk.  One place where shrinking is widely used (and disliked, as it's hard to do well) is for torch-working car bodywork, particularly for dent repair. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:39, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, that's why I've not come across it. The only time I've heard the term is as a way to attach two pieces; one piece is heated up and the cold piece slid into it, then as the first cools and shrinks it closes and friction prevents the two pieces from separating. At any rate, the section for shrinking (if returned to the article) would need to go after upsetting, and be a tad more clearly explained. Kierkkadon (talk) 16:07, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you may have latched onto a meaning of "shrinking" different from the one intended here.  There is a technique called shrinking that is essentially a form of upsetting, but with the force applied by allowing the work to buckle between 2 end restraints and then striking the buckled part to force the buckle back into place.  There is a more detailed explanation in http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Down%27n%27dirty_Blacksmithing .--Wcoole (talk) 20:49, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shrinking needs rewrite 

message: The link to sledgehammer goes to sledge_hammer, and not sledgehammer. This is not correct
90.192.221.234 (talk) 14:51, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Camyoung54 talk 17:16, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request on 24 February 2013 

message: You really do need to include quenching. For start the raw material of METAL will not be strong enough to create a sword that could withstand a heavy blow from another sword in battle in order to protect your body from attacking swords blow. QUENCHING... Heat the metal till it is RED hot, then hammer, re HEAT metal till YELLOW, and enter METAL into bucket or troff full of water. If you need any more tips on WhiteSMITHS or BLACKSmiths then do let me know.
91.125.154.12 (talk) 23:49, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  RudolfRed (talk) 23:58, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request on 22 March 2013 

message: This is wrong, in a sense. While a weapon-smith is, at the heart, a blacksmith, in that they work in iron and steel(and bronze, earlier), the blacksmith is not a weapon-smith. The general village blacksmith didn't make weapons, that was the work of a dedicated professional. A general machine-shop today would probably be able to make a firearm of some sort, that doesn't make them a weapons company. A weapon-smith, and particularly a bladesmith did nothing but create weapons, and had long training and dedicated tools for the job. You didn't just whack something together out of what you had lying around. 85.229.59.77 (talk) 14:40, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not sure what you are referring to. There is nothing in the article I can find that implies all blacksmiths are weapon-smiths. If there is a particular piece of text you think should be changed, I would recommend changing it and providing a reliable citation. Worst case scenario it gets reverted. 217IP (talk) 20:11, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weapons 

message: for uksake sort it out!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:411:1600:226:8FF:FEDC:FD74 (talk) 09:50, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should be links to whitesmithing, brownsmithing, and so forth... 

message: The  2nd photo describes: "..furnace.." in the caption.   It is called a Forge. Attempted to edit  caption but could not. Ref: Did some smithing, it's in my family. Taking class at Pima College.184.99.150.138 (talk) 16:41, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture? "Furnace". 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Under Mythological Notable blacksmiths, Hephaestus(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus) the Greek God is forgotten. Costa bo (talk) 09:13, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Reluctantly  Not done: Although it would likely be appropriate to include him in that list, Hephaestus is already mentioned and discussed in detail in the level 2 section "Mythology". If another autoconfirmed editor in good standing sees fit to make this change I would not object. —KuyaBriBriTalk 15:44, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 15 November 2017 

message: Picture of modern blacksmiths in xinjiang should read "in western china" not "eastern" Teeris (talk) 16:52, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:37, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2018 

message: On the 8th line of the "20th and 21st centuries" section, there appears to be a grammatical error. I believe that instead of saying "with 30 charter members and had 2013 about 600 members", it should be chanced to "with 30 charter members and had about 600 members in 2013" for more clarity on behalf of the reader. ZachT1234 (talk) 04:43, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Thank you for pointing out the error. — LeoFrank  Talk 05:24, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 1 July 2018 

message: If whitesmith is a type of blacksmith and the article has only one line, Merging might be better Daiyusha (talk) 06:17, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: A whitesmith is not the same as a blacksmith.  However, the latest one-liner at whitesmith is somewhat inaccurate.  Older versions of the article, before its content was copied to tinsmith, were more accurate.  The one-line article should not stand as-is and I would have redirected it immediately (ie. undone the latest edit) if there wasn't a move discussion.  Tinsmith would currently be a better redirect than blacksmith, it does at least mention the term whitesmith, or at least until the author of the latest one-liner tried to remove it.  Lithopsian (talk) 16:40, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

text: Ignorance of a subject is not reason to merge. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:27, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: As I have indicated above the sources show the word has a dual meaning. It refers to someone who produces refined products of iron and steel and evolved from a speciality of blacksmithing. It is also a synonym for tinsmith. A redirect to either blacksmith or tinsmith would not therefore be appropriate so the only workable solution is to have a seperate article, and the sources support this.--Pontificalibus 10:04, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge with [[Whitesmith]] 

message: I can't find any evidence to support the article's claim that 'black' refers to firescale.
However, I did find this:
"Some early civilisations do not appear to have recognised iron as being distinct from copper and refer to it as black copper..." -- Madeleine Durand-Charre, Microstructures of Steels and Cast Irons, p. 3
--Cowlinator (talk) 19:47, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It's pretty clear that black refers to the colour of the metal. I'm not sure that the various conditions under which the metal appears black are really relevant.--Pontificalibus 08:11, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Firescale may actually mean Mill scale, given the ferrous materials - open to debate on this.203.10.91.89 (talk) 23:28, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better etymology for 'black' in blacksmith 

message: In section 6.2 "Before the Iron Age", "crystal" is misspelled as "cristal".  The specific paragraph I'm referring to is this one:
Copper and bronze cannot be hardened by heat-treatment, they can only be hardened by cold working. To accomplish this, a piece of bronze is lightly hammered for a long period of time. The localized stress-cycling causes work hardening by changing the size and shape of the metal's cristals. The hardened bronze can then be ground to sharpen it to make edged tools. 140.90.86.99 (talk) 15:12, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Thanks. --Pontificalibus 15:17, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 6 September 2019 

message: Suggestion for an addition to "see also" 
In the smithy sparks sometimes fly from the anvil, composer Handel (18th C) wrote a delightful piece for the harpsichord that has earned the title The Harmonious Blacksmith in which musical sparks fly, there is a wikipedia page dedicated to it, and I suggest the inclusion in "see also" of a link to that page.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.6.185.102 (talk) 20:34, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  blacksmith in music 

message: Under Smithing Process..."hammer, an anvil, and a chisel" (comma after anvil). Sorry. OCD Viapersona (talk) 22:23, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  tiny edit request 

message: {{subst:trim|1=
Hi, I'd like to make changes to the "Medieval" section; I'd like to add a lot in terms of content, would that be alright?
: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:24, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 16 March 2022 

message: origin of blacksmith 118.103.138.116 (talk) 09:46, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure if you're asking a question, but the origin of the word "blacksmith" is detailed in the Etymology section: Blacksmith#Etymology. Polyamorph (talk) 14:26, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  History  

message: Was just wondering if adding John Deere as a notable blacksmith would be appropriate. His shop produced his self polishing plow and I just figured that it was an important piece of history. Thanks 12.74.222.46 (talk) 22:47, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 05:13, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 25 November 2023