Talk:Daktari Ranch affair

message: The use of 'putative' in the title does not in my opinion maintain NPoV standards as it elevates the side of the debate which denies that the coup actually took place.
To compare:  The article on The Holocaust isn't listed as "the putative Holocaust" even though there are people out there who dispute its historicity.
Even the government of Canada in this undoubtedly biassed anti-Chavez article still nevertheless acknowledges that Chavez was indeed overthrown and removed from power for a period of time.
According to the 2006 Random House Unabridged Dictionary 
"Coup D'etat" is defined as:
* "A sudden and decisive action in politics, esp. one resulting in a change of government illegally or by force."
According to the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (4th Ed), 2006
"Coup D'etat" is defined as:
* "The sudden overthrow of a government by a usually small group of persons in or previously in positions of authority."
Thus, empirically speaking, what happened in 2004 was a Coup D'Etat.  We may debate over who was behind it; whether it was a more or less serious offence; et cetera, but this should be done in the body of the article, not the title.
Moreover, the Spanish language version of the page on Hugo Chavez does not call into question the fact that the coup actually happened.  You can read a translated version of that page here
Thus this article should be re-titled "2004 Venezuelan coup d'état attempt" (matching the Spanish version of this article) but should contain a significant section therein discussing the disputed historicity of the events.  
If nobody has any problem with that, I will change the title of this article.
Ottawastudent 17:12, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please notice this is not the 2002 Venezuelan coup d'état attempt but an incident that happened 2 years later. Venezuelan press, including official agencies, usually refer to this incident as "El caso de los paramilitares" (The paramilitaries affair). JRSP 19:01, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Title 

message: haha.  Wow, I'm an idiot.  I stumbled over this article through a google search and was shocked.  I didn't even think about the date, I just saw the title and got pissed off at what I thought was a distortion of monumental proportions.
My mistake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ottawastudent (talk • contribs) 14:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Title -- Mea Culpa 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.eluniversal.com/movil/13A475161.html
** In 2004 putative Venezuelan coup d'état attempt on 2011-05-25 07:51:16, 404 Not Found
** In 2004 putative Venezuelan coup d'état attempt on 2011-06-11 12:45:05, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 12:45, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.panodi.com/panodi/131343.html
** In 2004 putative Venezuelan coup d'état attempt on 2011-05-25 07:51:16, 404 Not Found
** In 2004 putative Venezuelan coup d'état attempt on 2011-06-11 12:45:13, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 12:45, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 2 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.elpais.com.co/paisonline/notas/Octubre052005/vene.html
** In 2004 putative Venezuelan coup d'état attempt on 2011-05-25 07:51:16, 404 Not Found
** In 2004 putative Venezuelan coup d'état attempt on 2011-06-11 12:45:24, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 12:45, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 3 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://noticias.canalrcn.com/noticia.php3?nt=12388
** In 2004 putative Venezuelan coup d'état attempt on 2011-05-25 07:51:32, Socket Error: 'A connection attempt failed because the connected party did not properly respond after a period of time, or established connection failed because connected host has failed to respond'
** In 2004 putative Venezuelan coup d'état attempt on 2011-06-11 12:46:15, Socket Error: 'A connection attempt failed because the connected party did not properly respond after a period of time, or established connection failed because connected host has failed to respond'
--JeffGBot (talk) 12:46, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 4 

message: I surfed to this article while reading about Venezuela so it must have at least some worth :)
The way it is now, though, seems to be in violation of NPOV. Although the previous commenter thought this referred to the actual coup attempt in Venezuela, much of what he wrote still applies. In particular, the use of the word "putative" (similar to "purported") begs the question of NPOV. With more than a quarter of the accused found guilty in a court of law, why is this 'purported' or 'alleged'? It seems that only the defendants and their families have argued that the process was unfair + this is argued by every defendant anywhere in the world.
Two more things strike me as odd:
1) The argument to make the Venezuelan state's accusation seem silly is lacking a citation + asserts that such a small number of people could not take on the entire Venezuelan military. This is a given. Venezuela actually said, at the time, that the Colombians were suspiciously involved in activities that led investigators to believe that they would impersonate Venezuelan authorities in a coup situation (exactly what happened during the prior coup attempt). They were, after all, captured while wearing Venezuelan military uniforms. Why is a group of "Colombian peasants" gathering at the ranch of an extreme right-winger and dressing up as soldiers?
2) The fact that Venezuela's president was kidnapped at gunpoint only two years earlier seems to be a relevant point :) Or, that the same thing happened to the president of Honduras (a regional Chávez ally). Or, that there is a history of attempted and successful coups in Latin America originating with the same group of people who comprise the Venezuelan opposition.
I will strike the paragraph mentioned in my point #1 but I don't think I know enough about Wikipedia process to change the article name. If some time goes by without a response here, I guess I'll figure it out (on irc or something).
ryan bagueros »  i know en + pt-br + es » talk 14:24, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seems to be NPOV (Yes, I know which event this is talking about) 

message: FYI: I tried to find new citations about the press conference held by the families of the detained in Colombia but couldn't find anything in English or Spanish. There were some articles from the opposition point-of-view but nothing specific to the press conference. On the contrary, "the case of the paramilitaries" seems well=documented and accepted as a real, criminal conspiracy by Venezuela, Colombia, the OAS and so on. If anything, this article should be expanded with details of the case (including some fascinating insight about how right-wing terrorist networks in the Americas function). Again, I'm still new to Wikipedia, so I'll give some time before I make changes like this.
ryan bagueros »  i know en + pt-br + es » talk 15:07, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV: seems like facts of this case aren't widely disputed 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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