Talk:Leo (Tekken)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:07, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Leo Tekken 6.jpg

message: "2 males, 2 females" isn't a valid argument. Why couldn't it be "3 males, 1 female"? Yes, the name is said as "lay-oh" as it's "reo" in kana. So what? That's also how Japanese fans call Leonardo DiCaprio, for example ("reo sama"). Does that mean he's a girl? "Feminine face, voice"? You're not familiar with the concept of bishounen/biseinen, are you? "Her breasts"? Just check the other male characters... They're not exactly "flat". Also, "chan" can be used for male characters. As for Namco avoiding to call Leo "he" or "she", that's very possible, indeed. But how does that tell us that Leo is a girl? You don't have any evidence that Leo is a girl because there isn't any (so far?). That one interview people keep referring to? I'd really like to see the actual quote (in Japanese), but I've seen people comment that it actually went something like that "Q: Is Leo a girl? A: Why can't people accept legitimate beauty?"... and that doesn't sound like a "yes" to me (on the contrary?). If you could post a scan, that would be appreciated. I know I've never seen any Japanese source referring to Leo as a girl... but I've seen them calling him a young man quite often. http://www.tekkenpedia.com/images/7/7d/Arcadia_Dec._2007_Scans_%285%29_%28Tekken_6%29.jpg (Arcadia): "biseinen" = "beautiful young man" (lit.) -> male, http://www.jeux-france.com/images1_4_20377.html (FamiTsû): "karera" when referring to Leo and Zafina means that at last one of them is male, and obviously, Zafina isn't, or http://www.tekkenpedia.com/images/b/b8/Tougeki_Damashi_Vol._7_Scans_%28T6%29_%283%29.jpg (Tôgekidamashii): "josei to machigawareru hodo no biseinen Leo" = "Leo, a young man so beautiful he could be mistaken for a woman". The first and third article were both written after the interview that supposedly revealed that Leo was a girl, by the way. You'd think they would have avoided such a blatant mistake, especially in the first example (same magazine). In conclusion, while I guess there's still the possibility that Leo is _secretly_ a girl (a shocking fact that would be revealed in "his" PlayStation 3 ending?), so far, he's always been said to be male. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 16:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is he short? Well, why not? Breasts? Have you actually seen them? Besides... http://www.tekken-official.jp/downloads/img/tekken6/leo2_s.jpg / http://www.tekken-official.jp/downloads/img/tekken6/hwo_s.jpg and http://www.tekken-official.jp/downloads/img/tekken6/leo1_s.jpg / http://www.tekken-official.jp/downloads/img/tekken6/bry_s.jpg ... The announcer is an English speaker? Does that mean he should pronounce "Leo" as if it were an English name? How does he pronounce "Xiaoyu", again? And I don't quite see your point anyway, here, sorry... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 03:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

text: "Now Germans are well-known for being short, and Japanese are tall?" Are you saying Japanese people should be short, and German people should be tall? 'Cause that's what it sounds like, and it's a bit dumb. "I don't get why some people just trying to say Leo is a boy." Maybe because Japanese magazines keep calling him a boy, and never called him a girl? "whining about a game character's gender?" Whuh? Who's whining, here? And if I'm whining, what about you? "I wrote above that Leo is clearly a girl, and many people agree with me, lots of Tekken fans are calling her a girl." You don't really get Wikipedia, do you? "Just wait until Namco confirms it." Sure. I don't have any problem with the articles being gender-neutral until then, really. I just don't like people claiming Leo is a girl when they don't have any evidence _at all_ ("it's obvious!"). I provided evidence, at least. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 01:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

text: "Some magazines", huh? They're the same ones who published that interview with Harada where he supposedly revealed Leo's gender. So is Arcadia to be trusted or not? And if the same magazines later called him a boy, what does that tell us? We have the scans of them calling Leo a boy, and we don't have the scan with Harada calling Leo a girl. Huh. Peculiar! "Based on the look, Leo is clearly a girl." That's not evidence. Surely you realize that. "Leo's fighting style, Hakkyoku-Ken or Baijiquan is a hard-hitting style, similar to Kenpo. If they want to make a male character with that style, he would looks like Feng Wei." What kind of logic is that? Aren't you saying that because of Leo's fighting style, he/she should be quite muscular, _regardless of gender_? Don't we already know that's not the case anyway? "There's no point making a sissy-looking man with a hard-hitting style." Yeah, 'cause we've never seen _that_ in fighting games. Ever. And again, if Leo's concept is that he's a biseinen, of course he won't look like Feng. I mean... Come on, now. "You hate people who call Leo a girl?" Read again. I don't like when people claim Leo is a girl _without any evidence_ (<- emphasis, just for you). Shrine Maiden, you said "wait until I fetch my friend" when asked about the interview. I would assume that means you have access to it. Could you quote or scan that particular bit? That would be a lot more interesting than "OMG are you blind?" 88.161.129.43 (talk) 10:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: o_O? Looks like you are confused. When did I say "OMG are you blind?"? 203 isn't my IP, ask any Sysop. "To quote someone in a forum: "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoAgGTql770 Pause at 06 second. Leo has breasts. Gameover." Shrine Maiden (talk) 13:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Check your eyes", remember? And that video doesn't prove anything, sorry. What about that interview? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 17:21, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm... Looks like I was out of character. I am a good girl and I will revert to my cute usual self. Sir 88.161.129.43 is great and was all right and I was all wrong. (But Leo was created as a tomboy and eventhough you refuse to accept the truth, you can't do anything about that =) End of useless conversation. Shrine Maiden (talk) 01:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It wouldn't be useless if you could help us with that interview. ^^; And I'm not "refusing to accept the truth". Like I said, Leo could turn out to _secretly_ be a girl. But so far, Leo is apparently supposed to be a young man. Whether "he" _actually_ is a young man or "she" is disguised is another problem... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 02:39, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Read the damn discussion... It's not just because of the name. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 05:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: All of your "proofs" did not prove anything. You gave a couple of links to some scans, and say "Leo is supposed to be a young man". They do not mean anything. When did Namco state that Leo is a young man? You could not prove anything, sorry. Until Namco officially say Leo is male or female, just keep silent. 203.190.163.146 (talk) 05:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Arcadia has been the main source of information ever since the game has been announced. Them calling Leo a biseinen on several occasions (and going as far as to add that he could be mistaken for a woman) should count for _something_. More than your "he sounds like a girl!", anyway, in my opinion. But hey, go ahead and use _that_ as a source. It's probably what Wikipedia is all about. Back to my evidence... Does it prove that Leo is a young man? Not necessarily. But it sure looks like we're supposed to think he is, at the very least, and that's my point. You would know if you bothered to read. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 05:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You are gender-confused, and over all confused. WHere's my "he sounds like a girl"? Arcadia is not Namco Bandai. If you believe that Leo is a girl or a boy because Arcadia said so, that's your problem. Most Tekken fans think that Leo is a girl, and that's their problems. And unless you can prove that Namco stated that Leo is a boy, there's no reason for you to lengthen this page with your Original researches. Your scans could not prove that Leo is a young man. Sorry.203.190.163.146 (talk) 06:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is if people are trying to call Leo a girl without any solid evidence. And my "original research"? How is quoting Arcadia, Tôgekidamashii and FamiTsû "original research"? You think Arcadia isn't a credible source? You think they're making this stuff up eventhough Namco has obviously been feeding them information from day one? Fine. Whatever. I, for one, don't see any reason to doubt Arcadia on that one (that is, I think we're indeed supposed to think of Leo as an androgynous young man... _but_ I guess "he" could still be revealed to be a woman in disguise (for some reason??)), but I don't have a problem with the article being gender-neutral for the time being. 'Looks like some people want it to refer to Leo as a girl without any solid evidence, on the other hand, and _that_, I have a problem with. Is that clear enough, _now_? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 06:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Considering some users keep editing the article so that it refers to Leo as a girl, I would think it _is _relevant. Anyway. Do you know how you can get Special Medal 595 ("Mannen Onna Nakase")? By defeating 100 female characters (well, "women", actually... Panda and Roger Jr.'s mother don't count, apparently). And do you know who there characters are, according to Namco? They're listed as being: Lili, Xiaoyu, Nina, Anna, Julia, Asuka, Christie and Zafina. There you are. Geeze. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 06:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: How is it "original research" exactly? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 07:09, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Source? No source means original research. But it's not related to Leo, so just don't talk anymore. 123.19.60.12 (talk) 07:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is related to Leo. Pay attention. If Leo isn't listed as a female character, what does that mean, in your opinion? So much for Leo "obviously" being a girl. And really, I just gave the details, the name and number of the medal... It wasn't "original research" when I quoted famous Japanese magazines, and it still isn't here. Geeze, do I have to fire up Google for you, too? http://nakenashi.net/archives/2007/12/03-003905.php http://mobile.seisyun.net/cgi/read.cgi/game13/game13_gamefight_1198723313/127 Several posts on the Tekken BBS too, but it seems to be down right now... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 07:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That forum and that video did not prove anything. Sorry. Where's Namco's official statement that Leo is a young man? 123.19.60.12 (talk) 07:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The video wasn't the point (even if it did show motions that are only used by male characters...), the post was. Do you even understand Japanese? If you don't, stop trolling, thanks. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 07:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this Japanese Wiki? The posts in that forum proved nothing. Sorry. Where's Namco's official statement that Leo is a young man? Stop trolling, thanks. 123.19.60.12 (talk) 07:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You didn't answer my question... and thus you indirectly did. You simply don't know what these posts are saying, so you can't claim that they prove nothing. In other words, you're trolling. Congrats! 88.161.129.43 (talk) 07:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You said "Namco does not list Leo as a female character". And when asked for source, you gave a link to a Youtube video of a TK6 match which proves nothing, and another link to a Japanese forum in which a fan posted in 3 JAN 2008 about what you said. That post from an unknown fan does not prove anything. Sorry. Where's Namco's official statement that Leo is a young man? Stop trolling. 123.19.60.12 (talk) 07:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Either pay attention or stop trolling. I already told you that the Youtube video wasn't the point (otherwise, I would have posted a direct link, y'know?). That goes to show that you can't read Japanese and don't even know what you're talking about. Several Japanese players have been reporting the requirements for that medal and the fact that Leo wasn't listed (by Namco, obviously (?), since they made the game and its medals) as a female character. If you consider that "original research", you should probably go ahead and delete all the other information that has been reported by players as well as the fan translations of the character's profiles: they didn't originate directly from Namco, after all... I wonder what will be left... Now, add to that the Arcadia, FamiTsû and Tôgekidamashii articles (definitely _not_ original research, I even provided links to the scans) and anybody could tell that, _at the very least_, Leo isn't "obviously a girl", contrarily to what's been said quite a lot around these parts. And if you still can't see how that's relevant to Leo's article, it's your problem, really... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 08:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: They are talking about Leo's gender on that forum. Only one person posted about that, so far no one even bothered to reply to his post. And since when should a random post by a random fan by a random forum be used as reference in Wikipedia. Magazines only assumed that Leo is a "pretty boy" because Leo is a male name, that's over already. Where's Namco's official statement that Leo is a young man? I'm waiting to hear.123.19.60.12 (talk) 08:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Forums". Plural. It's not my fault if you keep focusing on the Youtube link and "missing" the rest of the post. And I also mentioned the Tekken BBS. It's not online right now, but here we go with the cache links... http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:PfpnwdhfZvUJ:tekkenbbs.info/test/read.cgi/leo/1195414796/ (post 117) http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:jMHoImnd3pgJ:tekkenbbs.com/test/r.cgi/chat/1196225181/l10 (post 440) And don't try to downplay the relevance of these reports because "they're from random players". You would invalidate much of Wikipedia's gaming-related content. Besides, if you were paying attention (but you don't appear to be interested in even _pretending_ to do so), you would know that I never pretended to have an "official statement from Namco that Leo was a young man": I even explained that I thought Leo _could_ turn out to be a girl posing as a young man in the end, for all I know. I'm just saying that _so far_, I've never seen Namco nor major Japanese publications refer to him as being a girl, _and_ I provided evidence of three important magazines calling him a young man and of _Namco themselves_ curiously failing to include him in a list of the female characters. Calling that irrelevant is simply ludicrous. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 08:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Yeah, because providing scans of Japanese magazines doesn't prove anything. As a matter of fact, Wikipedia never used Japanese publications as sources for their articles. Ever. Right. And thanks for the allegations, really. The user who posted that "blatant vandal" warning erased it minutes later. You failed to mention that, and I wonder why. As for the 3RR warning, mea culpa. The fact remains that I was reverting vandalism. Maybe you should also check the other guy's contributions, as well as his talk page? And no, I wasn't blocked, but thank you for your refreshing theories. Misrepresenting me? Very mature and oh-so-relevant. Clearly, you're one to lecture people. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 09:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Well, I'm afraid the fact that _you_ can't read these scans and forum posts doesn't make them any less relevant. Sorry. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 09:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Leo is a young man (so far?)

message: Look, I understand perfectly well that judging by Leo's looks, it would be rather hard to tell whether this character is male or female. But seriously, even now with the Tekken 6 gameplay videos on YouTube, it's quite obvious, judging by voice and mannerisms, that Leo is female. I am now beginning to believe that this is a case of Sexism, since this is apparently the first time TWO female characters have been introduced at once into the Tekken character roster (Leo and Zafina both in Tekken 6). If it's not sexism, then (and I offer my most sincere apologies if I happen to offend any wikipedians by this) I believe that many of you are being very simple at this. I'll give my justifications:
*We have had a translation of the official site biographies. They may be fan-based, but let's face it: the storylines of Kazuya, Jin and Miguel were correct.
*On the YouTube videos, Leo's normal speaking voice can be heard many times, and unless I am going extremely deaf, it is a woman speaking for Leo.
*Since when did Wikipedia have to depend on other sites for information? If the information can be found without help, it should be added and sourced (I don't know how to source something, but someone should source the info about Leo's voice from the YouTube videos).
This is what I believe, and for this reason, I have put Leo's gender down as female. If anyone disagrees with me, feel free to send in their reasons. And on another note, I added that Leo was unaware that her mother and the other executives deserved to die for trying to kill Kazuya first (G Corporation made Jack-4, Jack-5 and Jack-6, didn't they?). Jienum (talk) 21:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The female voice doesn't mean much, and we've been over that already. As for the mannerisms, I believe Leo's gestures after a lost round, for example, are actually the ones used for male characters. Leo's Japanese profile doesn't tell us anything about the character's gender, meaning that the fan who translated it and called Leo "she" was merely extrapolating (heck, I believe he said as much himself on the boards), so your point is moot. And even if it weren't, that same translation called Leo's father a "detective"... So much for accuracy. So it looks like your only argument is the voice after all. As for the "sexism" thing, I won't even respond to it, as words would fail me. And 123.19.50.217, I'm not the one who's trolling, here. Come up with actual evidence (like I did, by the way... but it looks like you've missed that "detail") or just shut up about that issue, thanks. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 05:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe you are correct. As you can see, a female's losing animation is stamping with vexation. The translator was probably extrapolating indeed. And correct me if I'm wrong, Leo's father is not a detective. He is a world-class spelunker or simply a cave enthusiast, which would better explain his disappearance.Asuka chan17 (talk) 08:56, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sexism or Simpletons? 

message: # Please do NOT add your own stuffs like "Leo is unaware that mother betrayed Kazuya first yadda yadda" into Namco's official profile.
# Although Leo's looks, voices, and animations point out that she is a tomboy, and most Tekken fans call Leo "her"; Namco never said anything clearly about Leo is a boy or a girl. So please do NOT change "Leo" to he/she.
# Unless you have something to prove that Namco confirmed Leo's gender, don't argue anymore about Leo's gender here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.190.163.146 (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please. I could say the exact same thing about you. Except for the "certain geek" part, but that's mostly because I try to avoid gratuitous name-calling. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 08:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Since when is reverting necessarily a bad thing? Or is it because they're video game articles? Should I feel... what, ashamed or something? Are you serious about that? And again, I didn't give you a video, I gave you a _post_. For the third time, the video wasn't the point, the post was. The post happened to contain a Youtube link, but it wasn't limited to that, and that wasn't what I was referring to. The line right under the Youtube link. _That_ was the relevant part. Phew. And enough with the name-calling, kthanks. Comparing me with a murderer, now? Classy. "Don't push your luck", indeed. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 09:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Reverting is not a bad thing. Violating the 3RR by doing it 6 times a day is a bad thing. You got lucky they did not report you. Until you can prove that Namco officially stated that "Leo is a young man", stop talking. 123.19.60.12 (talk) 09:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty sure trolling is a bad thing, too. Maybe you should quit? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 09:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No no, you should quit, troll. And I'm pretty sure telling people to "shut up", "read the damn discussion" (above), or "read the damn comments" here isn't very nice thing to do. 123.19.60.12 (talk) 09:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Sure, but you'll have to admit that your "Sexism or Simpletons?" title wasn't necessarily the best way to start a civilized discussion... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 11:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I did, and I apologised for it in brackets. Take a look. Jienum (talk) 13:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you did for the second half of your title, anyway... ^^; And I still think it was uncalled for to begin with... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 13:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Like I said, I offered my apologies no matter what, since I'm not the sort to insult others for trivial reasons (unless I'l insulted first). I don't like to admit it, but I believe the two of you are wasting your time arguing like this, and if no one is going to accept that Leo is a girl until there is an official confirmation (which I don't believe we have to wait for anymore), then let's just drop the conversation altogether. It's less hassle, and no one has to be threatened with being blocked by administrators. Jienum (talk) 14:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral POV, No Original research, and this is not a forum 

message: I think it's fair to assume that the grave Leo visits in the T6 intro is her mother's, and the gravestone reads, "Emma Kleisen"... So that must make her Leo Kleisen... I'm not putting this on yet in fear of a rabid fanboy attack, so if anyone of you can confirm this...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.163.212.136 (talk) 13:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leo's last name