Talk:Shakira/Archive 1

message: I deleted the part that says that her mother is of Catalan-Spanish decent. That is irrelevant. Any person of the Americas (excluding Canada and the USA) is of Spanish decent and there is no need to integrate that commentary. If we were to say this we would have to add that to EVERY article relating to a Hispanic artist. We don't. We just put "Colombian", "Mexican", not "of Spanish ancestry. . .", of "Spanish and Native ancestry. . . ". It's absurd to waste time integrating irrelevant nonsense. 
What is the source for those who claim that?
Nickglezdepuynol 21:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I thought her mother was born in Spain, so it's not just ancestry.  I could be wrong about that though.  Even if she wasn't, I think that was in there because Shakira plays up the fact that her father is Lebanese, and including that would make people wonder "So where's her mother from?" --Galaxiaad 23:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RECENT EDIT 

message: Didn't Gloria Estefan provide English translations for Ojos Así and some of her other Spanish-language songs?
: I would not be surprised. I heard Shakira in an English language interview and from that I doubt that she is able to write (or even sing...) songs in English herself. I also have doubts about the truth and NPOV of She is fluent in English, Spanish, Arabic, Portuguese, and Italian. 213.51.209.230 22:49, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC
She is not really fluent in Arabic or Portugueses. Her dad does speak some Arabic but she knows just basic stuff. Before she worked with Emilio Estefan her ancestry was never in the picture..I guess it was good marketing, she even took some bellydance courses where I used to go, then I heard "ojos asi" and I was not surprise (Raniya 05:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Gloria Estefan translated Ojos Así and Ciega, Sordomuda (never released). She also translated Inevitable, a song Shakira only sang once, on the Rosie o Donnel Show.
Before the crossover the plan was to translate her spanish songs, however Shakira didnt feel comfortable with those translations and decided to master the english language to write new songs directly in english. 
----
I don't think that the explanation of Shakira as "woman of grace" here is quite correct. I have consulted three reference books that deal with Arabic names (A Dictionary of First Names by Patrick Hanks & Flavia Hodges, Oxford, 1990; Digest of Muslim Names by Fatimah Suzanne Al Ja'fari, Amana Publications, 1997; and The Complete Book of Muslim and Parsi Names by Maneka Gandhi and Ozair Hussein, Penguin Books India, 2004) and they all say that Shakira means "grateful, thankful" in Arabic. 
--Clevelandkentevans 13:45, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with Clevelandkentevans, Babynames.com translates shakira as Thankful.      --Puerto.rico 16:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Older comments

message: Looks good!  Take care. ;=) Drdr1989 03:03, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Edit 

message: Was reverting from a version that left out some links.  What does that have to do with link spam?  And why is there only one link left?? Lharvill 05:00, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see WP:EL for Wikipedia's policy on external links.  Wikipedia is not a link repository; this article used to be.  --Yamla 16:54, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: external links

message: The second single has not been decided yet. From her official site: "YOU'VE GOT MAIL FROM SHAKIRA!: Hey guys! Sometime soon, at the beggining of the next year, I'll be shooting my new video. I'd like to know which one you all think should be my next single out of Oral Fixation Vol. 2. I'll be waiting on your reply, so please don't take long writing me back! Thanks a lot y muchos besitos! Shakira". Then, you're redirected to: http://www.shakira.com/OralFijacion/content/connection/youvegotmail/songpoll_en.html where you can choose one of the tracks from Oral Fixation Vol. 2. Marianin 18:46, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Second single from "Oral Fixation 2" 

message: The quotes made by Shakira have been moved to WikiQuote, a side prodject of the Wikimedia Foundation. Therefore, the quotes are not required in the Wikipedia article that is Shakira. Thank you. For more information, contact my talk page. —Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 14:27, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Quotes do not belong in the main article about the subject, in this case that being Shakira. They belong at WikiQuote Shakira, another project of Wikimedia. The current project that we are socializing in is known as Wikipedia. Being an encyclopedia, quotes are not given a section of their own, and only featured in an article when attempting to help improve the quality of the writing. Please see the Wikibox that has been placed beside the "External links" in the Shakira section. —Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 22:00, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Shakira's quotes

message: Someone changed this recently, is he right? Rich   Farmbrough. 22:29, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: birthplace

message: It's hard to know where to start with this article. It needs serious revisions to style and grammar, and there's so much adolescent POV that it reads like a 13yr old's book report on a magazine article. Anyone agree? I don't want to tread on any toes and start hacking away at someone's labour of love... Cravenmonket 23:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought a major copy-edit on this article was done months ago.  Then again, it was months ago; therefore, many "adolescent" edits have been made since then.  Drdr1989 01:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: CHANGES!

message: What did Shakira exactly say on MtV (trL) when a jewish fan called her?
Is it true that she is racist?
Why do people respect her when all she does is sell sex?
 Rumour. And what is the matter with you? If someone adds bellydance to a performance, it does not mean they "sell sex" (you're not only insulting fans, but professional dancers). You will find that the only part of her body widely discussed by fans is her hair. (Spanglish 20:30, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  incomplete 

message: Has there ever been a death hoax for Shakira? I could swear that I heard or read somewhere that she had died, then again with me it could just as easily have been a dream. Cryomaniac 22:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Umm...  68.22.253.39 22:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll take that to mean that I dreamt it then... Cryomaniac 21:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death Hoax?? 

message: Within this article, this statement is made: "The lead single "La Tortura" (English: The Torture, featuring Alejandro Sanz) eventually reached number one in Spain and number twenty-three on the U.S. Billboard Hot 100, the highest position for a Spanish song in the United States." This either needs to be clarified or removed, as there are other Spanish-language songs which have, in the past, peaked higher. Examples include "Eres Tu" by Mocedades and the Los Lobos remake of "La Bamba." I know "La Tortura" had a notable run atop the Hot Latin Tracks chart, but is there a real Hot 100 feat to which this statement is alluding, or does it simply need to be removed as inaccurate? GassyGuy 00:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  La Tortura 

message: People sometimes think that she is "Colombian", but actually, if we want to be accurate, she technically is NOT colombian, she is colombian BORN ! In fact she does not have a single colombian gene in her entire body ! Now ok she is a colombian CITIZEN, as she was born there! But there IS a DIFFERENCE between where someone is born and what their genetic (or "ethnic") background is. Therefore, for the sake of ACCURACY and CLARITY, it should be stated that Shakira is Colombian BORN, but genetically/ethnically is NOT colombian and is in fact a mixture of spanish, Italian and Lebanese genetics/ethnicity!  
- Plex 30.5.2006
*So, by that logic, no person of European ancestry born in the USA is "American"? Wahkeenah 17:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It has nothing to do with ethnicity/race.  She was born in Colombia and she is a Colombian citizen, so that makes her Columbian.  --Musicpvm 21:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  She's Colombian BORN. Not "Colombian"   

message: I believe it is fair use to use the MTV screenshot, low-res version, to identify the MTV awards that Shakira was a part of.  See fair use for program ID.  It would not be fair use if the caption did not mention the program---but it does. 69.142.21.24 03:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ...anyway, we now have a free alternative and there's no need to use taht one. --Abu Badali 14:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  fair use of MTV screenshot 

message: I heard it means 'grateful', is it true ?
86.16.112.11 04:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Her name 

message: wow, are u serious, where did u get that from
:just a dumbass, who is writing this in the german wikipedia as well, then he uses the english wikipedia as a source.
:clever guy, ey. --85.180.38.127 20:44, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  macedonian? 

message: I've removed the following trivia section and placed it here so we can decide if it's important enough or relevant enough for the article. I'm usually a defender of trivia, but this doesn't seem necessary
"== Trivia ==
- Shakira was selected as part of a tourism promotion in Tunisia, the artist who had recently started her tour and also smashed Nº1's in several countries with "Hips Don't Lie" was very demanding, such as the organizers decided to turn out the offer to Mariah Carey who was finally selected to perform and the concert will be part of "The Adventures Of Mimi Tour". 
- Shakira was named back as La Colita of 1996 in Colombia and did a bikini session as honored the award.
- Usually MTV Unplugged series bring new songs to fans, in the Shakira's case she performed almost of the songs  of her second album and the hit singles of "Pies Descalzos". The album did included a different version of "Ciega Sordo Muda" with a Mexican Mariachi group. 
- Shakira was booed in Spain while she performed in English in her Mangoose Tour, since then her tours in latinamerican countries are very meticulous with the tracklist avoiding sing songs in English. In the Oral Fixation Tour she only performed 5 songs in English. 
- Shakira was considered at her beginning as the "Latin Alanis Morissete". Although the nickname was then dismissed after she changed her rock style to a more pop sound. 
- Fans in latinamerica have a pre-laundry service and post- laundry service era. While some fans stayed on her Pre - Laundry Service release when she was rocky, less worked out and with more in deep lyrics. Others followed her career until now. It's well known the quote "Me gustaba cuando cantaba en español" (I liked her when she sang in Spanish) Though she still does sing in Spanish, some fans considered she doesn't anymore. 
- Hips Don't Lie wasn't in the initial tracklist of Oral Fixation Vol. 2. Based on low accepting of Don't Bother worldwide and low sales in US, Epic decided to re-released the album with Hips Don't Lie and a Spanglish version of La Tortura. Fans who didn't have the re-released but already owned the original version could download the songs in her webpage. Then the fans realized the versions weren't compatible to MP3 Players. 
- Before Hips Don't Lie was delivered as second single, Shakira asked fans to vote for a possible second single to the album."
Yanksox 22:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia 

message: Why is there barely even any mention of Pies Descalzos and ¿Dónde Están Los Ladrones?  Yes, they're described on their own pages, but we still have to know how they fit into her chronology, etc.  I'll try and start this if no one else does... --Galaxiaad 23:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: First two major albums

message: I'm not sure how well-known this is to people from the Americas (I didn't know till I went to Barcelona)...  Catalonia is legally a part of Spain but historically separate, with a different language, etc.  There have been political changes and tension there for years, over things like which language to teach in schools and over Catalonia's independence.  There are even revolutionary/terrorist groups, and in Barcelona there is graffiti from both sides everywhere.  This is all to say that people come to Wikipedia to promote those agendas, so when someone changes "Catalan" to "Spanish" here, it should (in general) be treated as vandalism... I'm not on either side in the debate, but Catalonia is definitely separate from Spain in at least some ways, so it's a more specific description than just "Spanish".  (If someone legitimately believes that her mother is not of Catalan descent, they should provide a reference or at least bring it up on the talk page.  Of course, it would be good to have a reference saying that she is of Catalan descent.)  Also of course, this is all just how I see it, and if anyone wants to discuss it more, I'd be glad to. --Galaxiaad 20:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Galaxiaad, you were obvioulsy very impressed by certain group of radical separatist Catalonias that feel free to voice their own personal opinions to foreigners as if they represented the mayority of the people who live there. You should consider for a moment if you are the one defending an agenda. For example, why are you calling a vandal somebody who writes Spanish? isn't that a little bit extreme?? Spain is a country with a very rich and diverse past, all within the territory of Spain. Be safe and stay away from those who are still fighting the ghost of Francisco Franco. In the meantime, while Catalonia continues to be one of the Autonomous communities of Spain keep Spanish descent. Feel free to change it if Catalonia becomes a country. (Caracas1830 01:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess my post came off a little strong.  I didn't mean it should be treated as a separate country, but if it has its own language and culture, it is, like I said, at least in some ways a separate entity (would it be less contentious to say "different" from the whole of Spain rather than "separate"? as I said, I think "Spanish" is also a description of Catalan people who live in Spain, just not as specific).  As far as I can see it's equivalent to saying someone is of Native American descent, or Québécois (and the same reason as why it sounds bizarre to say "of New Jersey descent", but is perfectly normal to say "of Puerto Rican descent" or "of Hawaiian descent", though all three are parts of the U.S.).  With regard to calling them vandals, I think that an anonymous user who comes in for the sole purpose of changing references to "Catalan people" to "Spanish" is indeed a vandal.  Users fitting that description are the only ones I've seen make these edits.  Obviously each edit should be taken on an individual basis, I just wanted to let people know why this keeps getting changed, if they didn't already. --Galaxiaad 01:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  With regard to the political issue, perhaps the closer example would be a Québécois. Yet even in that case, take for example Celine Dion. Her article says French-Canadian...notice Canadian, because Quebec is Canada. The bottom line is that we don't even know if her mother was born or grew up in Catalonia(most likely in Colombia) or in other parts of Spain. Just because her last name is Ripoll, it does not make her Catalonian and she has another last name (her mother's) Torrado; so why Ripoll takes preference over Torrado??? both descents are important.. don't you think?(Caracas1830 03:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, that (with regard to her mother's name) makes sense (I still don't quite agree that we should only state a person's descent in terms of the political nation they're from, but I don't want to get caught in an uncivil argument when we can compromise instead).  In at least a few articles, people have come to a compromise and written "Catalan Spanish" (see Montserrat Caballé and José Carreras).  How would that be? --Galaxiaad 06:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Torrado seems to be a Castilian surmane, so is she Castilian-Catalan-Spanish? are we going to choose one over the other? why? The difference with Caballé and Carreras is that we have more information about them(born in Barcelona, they grew up in Catalonia), while at the same time it seems we don't know much about Shakira's mother. Until we have more specific information about her my suggestion will be to stay with Spanish because is more general and includes both Castilian and Catalan.(Caracas1830 01:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, English-British is wrong because it's redundant, but no one would have a problem with calling someone just English, because the British part is implied.  Charlotte Church is referred to in the intro of that article as Welsh, etc.  I don't think Spanish-Catalan or Catalan-Spanish make sense, but Catalan Spanish (without the hyphen) might be OK.  The hyphen makes it sound like the two things are separate (see Hyphenated American), so you can say African-American but not African American (the latter is contradictory) and Black American but not Black-American (as that implies Blacks are not generally part of America, or that Black is its own country).  At any rate, you're right about the nationalism thing.  Wikipedia shouldn't shy away from issues just because they're controversial, but maybe it's too much debate over an unimportant topic (Shakira's mother) and we should just leave it out. --Galaxiaad 00:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catalan descent 

message: There are 7 things that must pass before an article reaches GA status. I have reviewed it and the result is as follows:
#Well-written: Pass
#Factually accurate: Pass 
#Broad: Pass 
#Neutrally written: Pass
#Stable: Pass 
#Well-referenced: Pass
#Images: Pass
Well done, the GA has passed successfully —Minun Spiderman 19:40, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: WHOOOOO! I knew my copyediting would come in handy! Yanksox 12:53, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Result

message: Well there have pictures already replaced for the current one but someone just keeps changing it to this ugly one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Toosmart215 (talk • contribs) .
:Learn the Wikipedia:Image use policy; if you can find a better free image go for it. Please sign your posts. — getcrunk what?! 22:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hey!! 

message: on the page of famous short women, she's listed as 4'11! is that true?
:I found several sources on the Internet saying she is 5ft2in (157 cm), so I removed her from that list. -- TexMurphy 08:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shakira's Height 

message: Lebanese Christians are ethnically and cuturally not Arabs. There have been some ridiculous statements made here by Arabists who are trying to deny who the Lebanese Christians are. When the Arabs invaded Lebanon, the original inhabitants, the Phoenicians, moved to the mountains where they were safe from the Arabs, who were desert people who weren't interested in the forests and the cold mountains. Because of Islamic law, any Arab who turned to Christianity was killed, therefore the Christian bloodlines remained Arab-free. Christians are thus of Phoenician, and of french, greek, armenian ect. decent. Even the Lebanese civil war was between the two religious groups because it was also an ethnic conflict.
Here is proof:
http://phoenicia.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Christian_Nationalism:_The_Rise_and_Fall_of_an_Ethnic_Resistance
:196.11.241.43, this is not the right venue for you to push your point of view.  I also strongly suggest you actually read Arab.  Please refrain from editing this article any further under WP:3RR and please do not push your point of view any further here.  --Yamla 04:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No it doesn't.  It says, "Lebanese Maronites, for example, may reject the Arab label".  They may reject the label.  They don't always.  And it is talking about Lebanese Maronites only.  It specifically mentions that many Arabs are Christians and that, "In Lebanon they [that is, Arab Christians] now number about 39% of the population."  --Yamla 04:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

text: You'd do better to argue your point on Arab.  It's completely off-topic here.  But make sure you are citing reliable sources that adhere to WP:NPOV.  Once again, this is completely off-topic here.  --Yamla 04:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shakira's father is a Lebanese Christian therefore not Arab