Talk:Maharishi International University

message: *Curtis Mailloux (class of 1979), said the Fairfield campus is a "coercive environment" with a "propensity for fraudulent research".
The above material was deleted with the edit summary "Curtis is not a reliable source who admits to lying in the article. You can ask 1000's of satisfied graduates." However the New York Times found him to be credible enough to quote. If we can find an independent source that describes the views of 1000s of other students we can include that too. If there's no other reason for the deletion I'll restore it.   Will Beback  talk   04:17, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Mailloux

message: Compiling sources and trying to make sense out of all these grants to and from different organizations
*NIH
**1997, Med Lib, $5 million
**1999, Various sources, $8 million 
**2000, Pub Med, $8 million, NIH grant
****2003, The Gazette, $20.3 million total as of 2003. 
**2005 and 2006, approx $1 million, NIH web site
***2007, Medical News Today, $22 million total as of 2007 
**2009, Medical News reports on $1 million grant 
**2009, Local news reports on $1 million grant  
*NCCM
**NCCM web site -- — Keithbob • Talk •  19:44, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Be careful that you don't count the same grants twice. Is getting a grant really a notable thing? UCLA receives millions in grants every year, but they aren't mentioned in that article.   Will Beback  talk   19:32, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the grants are worth mentioning - MUM is a very small college, with small faculty, the nature of the research and the curriculum at MUM make it noteworthy, I feel.  UCLA is a much larger, longer established university, so not a good comparison. --BwB (talk) 09:28, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you find a comparable college article where so much attention is given to grants?   Will Beback  talk   10:12, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's notable. Many sources mention this. TimidGuy (talk) 10:36, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If we're going to devote all this space to the research then we need to include other views of that research.   Will Beback  talk   11:31, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Mr Keith, are we sharing our opinions of each other? While you're working on these, please note a quote request for one of the sources you just added. "Pub Med,NIH awards MUM $8 million grant,   Will Beback  talk   20:27, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and my opinion of you is very good.  :-) -- — Keithbob • Talk •  15:49, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Gee thanks! I'm going to remove the PubMed cite, since it appears that we're using the headline alone as a source.   Will Beback  talk   22:33, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grants to MUM from NIH and other sources 

message: I don't understand why we're listing the journals where MUM faculty have published reports. It doesn't seem neutral to me. I don't see similar lists in the articles of other universities. I suggest we leave it at the first line of the paragraph: "MUM faculty members have published research in numerous scientific journals including the American Heart Association's journals: Hypertension and Stroke.[32]"   Will Beback  talk   23:06, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There are literally thousands of media reports on these publications. This research has received an extraordinary amount of coverage. You need need to cite a guideline or policy that would disallow this sourced content. TimidGuy (talk) 10:40, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What other university articles list the journals its staff have published in? Do the thousands of media reports list these journals? What is the point of listing them? Are we all free to create lists of our choosing? This list makes an implicit point about the quality of the research conducted. To comply with NPOV we would need to add other views on the quality of this research.   Will Beback  talk   10:53, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Citing press releases isn't a great way of showing that we're using the best available sources.    Will Beback  talk   11:28, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a reliably-sourced view that puts this self-generated list in context: The vast majority of the thousands of research studies conducted at MUM is not published in peer reviewed journals, but by its own MIU (later MUM) Press. The research has been criticized for, among other things, the "expectancy effect" of both the researchers and the study subjects, and the lack of control groups, biasing the results and their interpretation. Former professors have criticized the research conducted at MUM and the uses to which that research is put, including to obtain tax exempt status, as fraudulent, that researchers have claimed to gather data they later admitted was impossible to have gathered, and that researchers admit to routinely supressing negative data and using only data which supports their conclusions.Williamson pp 100-103. Fladrif (talk) 14:55, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: A reliably sourced view is just that, and shouldn't be confused with accuracy or NPOV. NPOV is maintained by including content from the sources per weight in the mainstream, and then added per weight of content in an article.  (olive (talk) 17:17, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't have a source for this list. It was compiled apparently from looking at the studies themselves. It doesn't appear to be a complete list, but rather a list of selected journals. It has both NPOV and NOR issues. If we're going to discuss the research conducted by MUM, then the discussion must include all significant points of view, as found in reliable secondary sources.   Will Beback  talk   20:30, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the "mainstream" view of (i) to what extent the vast majority of TM research out of MUM is not published in peer reviewed publications (ii) to what extent the TM research at MUM may be biased by the expectancy effect of both researchers and participants or flawed by lack of control groups; (iii) to what extent the research at MUM is fraudulent? And don't tell me how many peer reviewed studies were published or how many dollars in grants it gets - one thing that peer review is singularly unable to uncover with any degree of reliability is fraud, the former professors and administrators allege that the fraud was explicitly used to obtain publication, grants and tax exemptions. I see lots of sources reporting these issues. I see none by unaffiliated, disinterested sources defending it. Fladrif (talk) 20:57, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

text: The mainstream view can be found by looking at science indexes and research reviews in academic journals. There you will see that a majority of the published studies are peer reviewed, that there are many many controlled studies, that research reviews find it valid, that the research has been conducted at many different institutions. TimidGuy (talk) 10:55, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd gotten the impression that the majority, or at least a very large minority, of studies have been published in compendium volumes put out by MUM. I don't think we're going to find that statistic in any publication, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Separately, most of the studies that I've read do not indicate where they were conducted. Instead, they simply list the affiliations of the authors. That topic has come up on talk:Transcendental Meditation, in case anyone has an answer. For this article, if the research was conducted at another institution is it still relevant here?  As for the list in general, we still have the problems of NOR and NPOV.   Will Beback  talk   12:14, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

text: I've moved the commentary on the quality of the research to the research section, as a stopgap to address NPOV.   Will Beback  talk   23:00, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The compendium volumes primarily reprint articles published in other academic journals. Early on they did include some unpublished studies. But these compendium volumes aren't typically covered in scientific indexes. A majority of the published studies (hundreds of them) found in indexes are peer reviewed. TimidGuy (talk) 11:01, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's do some quick math. There is an assertion that over 600 studies have been conducted. There is also an assertion that 341 papers have been published in peer-reviewed of edited scientific journals. Now a study isn't the same thing as a paper. Studies can be conducted without publishing the results, and a single paper can include multiple studies. Further, we already know that at least 80 of those papers were conducted by people unassociated with MUM. But if we assumed that one study=one paper, and that all studies were conducted by MUM faculty, then 601-341=260 papers or studies that were not published in reliable sources. If so, then 341 is larger than 260, and a majority of the papers/studies were published in academic journals. However there is no easy way of determining if those assumptions are correct, so I don't see how we could test the validity of the claim.   Will Beback  talk   12:10, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Do all Wiki article on universities have to be the same? --BwB (talk) 10:47, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look through the archives of this talk page you'll find many entries by editors saying this article should be more like other university articles. Why would a university list the publications in which its faculty have had their work printed? Those are individual achievements, not products of the school.  We don't list the  the schools attend by the faculty, nor their brands of cars or their tailors. Being published is not a special accomplishment for a professor: it's a minimum requirement for the job. Every real university has faculty who have been published in journals.   Will Beback  talk   11:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What if we changed the text to read - "MUM faculty members have published research on the Transcendental Meditation technique in numerous scientific journals including......" and then list the journals what have TM research? --BwB (talk) 11:39, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The list is the problem. I'd be fine with something like, "MUM faculty members have published research on the Transcendental Meditation technique in numerous scientific journals".   Will Beback  talk   11:49, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: How about a compromise - MUM faculty members have published research on the Transcendental Meditation technique in numerous scientific journals, including Journal A and Journal B." and list a couple of the most prestigious journals? --BwB (talk) 12:13, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That'd be fine, but the research isn't limited to the TM technique. How about "MUM faculty members have published research in numerous scientific journals including the American Heart Association's journals: Hypertension and Stroke." ?    Will Beback  talk   17:42, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Seeing no further comment, I'll go ahead and make the edit.   Will Beback  talk   08:46, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: And I have made a edit to it. --BwB (talk) 10:26, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I see you added "particularly on the TM technique". I'm not sure if we have a source for that. We might also say, "exclusively on Maharishi-inspired technologies". I'm not aware of any research by MUM faculty on matters unrelated to the Maharishi. But I'd be hesitant to add either statement without a source.   Will Beback  talk   17:11, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Understand, but we mention 3 journals in the text and the ref used is about TM research. Happy to discuss wording and refs, but the body of MUM faculty research is on TM. How to convey this? --BwB (talk) 13:49, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: How do we convey something for which we don't have a source? I suppose one answer is that we shouldn't make unsourced assertions.    Will Beback  talk   15:41, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: WIll the ref for the text  only talks about TM research not "TM-related technologies".  Perhaps wording only about TM should be used. --BwB (talk) 17:30, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That "ref" is a press release. We don't really need a ref for the fact that an MUM faculty member has had a paper published by Stroke. If we followed what the press release said, we'd have to say that a single study on the effect of TM on hypertension.... I don't really see the need to say anything about the topics of the research, but if we are going to summarize the faculty research we should be at least a bit more comprehensive and not list just one topic. Can you explain why you think we need to say which topic or topics MUM faculty have published research on, and why we should list only one topic?  Will Beback  talk   22:26, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: List of journals

message: It's odd to include criticism of this research when the article doesn't even talk about it. If we're to include this criticism, then we'd also want to include the researchers' explanation for how they controlled for the artifacts of movement during Yogic Flying. TimidGuy (talk) 10:55, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No, its not odd at all. It is matter of being accurate and specific in relating what the source says rather than being vague and potentially misleading.  NPOV does not require that Dilbeck gets the last word. Fladrif (talk) 11:58, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: NPOV does require that multiple points of view are represented. If you're going to criticize a study, you should also say what the study found and how it dealt with the specific issue raised. TimidGuy (talk) 10:16, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I could see moving the EEG sentence to the TM-Sidhi article, where it's more directly relevant. The rest of the material in it now pertains more the MUM research in general.   Will Beback  talk   10:58, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I would OK a move of this sentence. But I think Timid makes a point that need to be considered in using the sentence in the Sidhi article also. --BwB (talk) 11:22, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The source, Williamson, includes the views of both Roark and Dillbeck, as does our summary of it. A problem in the past is that we've presented a TM study, followed by the response or critique of the study, and then a sometimes lengthy rebuttal to the critique. That gives the TM POV something like twice as much space or weight as the other side. Is that fair and NPOV? I don't think so.   Will Beback  talk   11:37, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  reception of EEG research on Yogic Flying 

message: Tags are to alert editors of specific areas or aspects of an article that need attention or improvement. The tag was added by Doc James in Jan 2010. I will post a note on his User Page asking him to ID his concerns here so they can be addressed and the tag removed.-- — Keithbob • Talk •  16:10, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The NPOV issues were discussed when the tag was placed. Talk:Maharishi University of Management/Archive 2#NPOV.   Will Beback  talk   21:47, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Has anything changed since the tags were added.(olive (talk) 22:00, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Will, looking at the past discussion there wasn't anything specifically identified as needing change. Doc James has said on his talk page that he will look at the article in the next few days and I've asked him to be more specific so we can resolve the issue(s) and remove the tag. Let's see what he says and then proceed.-- — Keithbob • Talk •  18:58, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: He has removed the tag and says "the primary issue regarding why this was placed has been resolved". Problem solved, the system works.   Will Beback  talk   10:19, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality Tag

message: * Two "meditation domes"...
**Munns, Roger, "Upstart stirring up the karma", Owosso Argus-Press (Associated Press) (July 21, 1983)
Is this the right citation? I see where it refers to "the Maharishi's domes" and "two golden-topped amphitheatres". But I don't see any reference to "meditation domes".   Will Beback  talk   04:02, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Meditation domes

message: We now have an article specifically about the campus' Golden Domes. With that as a standalone article we no longer need to include some of the material on the domes and dome access in this article. I suggest replacing that material with a short section on the Golden Domes, using material that's directly relevant to the university.   Will Beback  talk   00:01, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Golden Domes

message: Current Text: In 2007 the university had 52 faculty members in 2007 Citytown Info and average salaries for full-time faculty as compared to the national average are compared in the chart below."Faculty Salaries, Benefits and Total Compensation", National Center for Educational Statistics
Level              	MUM Male Faculty	MUM Female Faculty	National Average
Professor          	$19,595         	N/A               	$98,500
Associate Professor	$14,648         	$9,644            	$70,800
Assistant Professor	$17,109         	$6,678            	$59,300
Instructor         	$7,992          	N/A               	$55,300
All Faculty        	$15,692         	$7,296            	$71,100
-- — Keithbob • Talk •  13:02, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your points above. As well, what is the use of salary data from 2007 unless used  for historical purposes? That data is five years old. Is there anything more recent.(olive (talk) 14:10, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have removed the chart and given a one sentence summary of the data. If anyone wishes to add further information from the source, in text from, please feel free to do so.-- — Keithbob • Talk •  20:12, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed removal of chart

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'm not clear what policy or guideline would support this deletion. The book is published by an academic press. TimidGuy (talk) 15:35, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Gidley is a non-notable academic (whose article was recently deleted at AFD for no evidence of notability in six years); there is no justification to call out Gidley as if authoritative in the text, for example, or to put in single studies by a non-notable and not authoritative academic as if they are weighty. Given that, the work would probably need to be shown to be of any weight. WP:CHERRYPICKING is an essay on the hazards of such when attempting to find Wikipedia-quality reliable sources - David Gerard (talk) 18:30, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I was hoping you could point me to a relevant policy or guideline. My understanding is that books published by an academic press are considered RS. For example, "Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses." In any case, I took a look at the source, and it turns out that the citation was incorrect. Gidley wasn't the author of the chapter that was being cited. Regarding the sentence you removed, I do think there was an issue with NPOV and don't have any objection to your removing it. TimidGuy (talk) 09:35, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion of Gidley source 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090424091417/http://www.mum.edu:80/rooms.html to http://www.mum.edu/rooms.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:44, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 35 external links on Maharishi University of Management. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120626045527/http://collegesofdistinction.com/college-profiles/IA-iowa/224-maharishi-university-of-management.html to http://www.collegesofdistinction.com/college-profiles/IA-iowa/224-maharishi-university-of-management.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/cbe.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/about/history.html/
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://uretekicr.com/2014/04/09/historical-mansion-restoration/
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mylocalfox15.com/featured/7th-heaven-star-to-give-fairfield-commencement-address/
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/achievements/2010_07_03.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/admin/trustees.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140729003355/http://iowaindependent.com/10181/fairfield-mayor-credits-peace-group-with-expanding-economy/ to http://iowaindependent.com/10181/fairfield-mayor-credits-peace-group-with-expanding-economy
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120305163618/http://www.parsonscollegealumni.com/history.aspx to http://www.parsonscollegealumni.com/history.aspx
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110723194531/http://www.uswaternews.com/archives/arcconserv/8mahauniv8.html to http://www.uswaternews.com/archives/arcconserv/8mahauniv8.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090117082142/http://www.mum.edu/popups/accreditation.html to http://www.mum.edu/popups/accreditation.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/nsse.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/nsse.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/cbe.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/programs.html/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100527194259/https://www.mum.edu/pdf_catalog/mvs.pdf to http://www.mum.edu/pdf_catalog/mvs.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110606091424/http://www.organicconsumers.org/documents/radish-magazine.pdf to http://www.organicconsumers.org/documents/radish-magazine.pdf
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/about/
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/achievements/2009_08_15.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/calculator.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/finaid/standard.html
*Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/5rcW57Rjj?url=http://www.mum.edu/calculator.html to http://www.mum.edu/calculator.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110606091832/http://www.organicconsumers.org/documents/iowa_life.pdf to http://www.organicconsumers.org/documents/iowa_life.pdf
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/naturalhealth.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/naturalhealth.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/naturalhealth.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/meals.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/recreation.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/compro/policymanual
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/msvs/about.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/inmp/nih
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mum.edu/faculty/travis_fred.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.icsahome.com/logon/elibdocview_new.asp?Subject=TM%20Lawsuit%20to%20Open%20&%20TM%20School%20Gets%20Most%20Federal%20Grants
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110101143715/http://www.mum.edu/alumni_survey.html to http://www.mum.edu/alumni_survey.html
*Added archive https://archive.is/20120724021943/http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012303240007 to http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012303240007
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:21, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Here. Spicemix (talk) 15:08, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name change