Talk:Haussmann's renovation of Paris

message: This phrase, worded as follows: "These quarters are, in reality, but a pastiche of early 20th-century post-Haussmann architecture, with its bow windows and loggias." is a very subjective statement. There is no consensus in what constitutes a pastiche, and it is usually used by pedantic modernists to criticize anything newly build that resembles a classical style without any further reasoning. Nachx    ( talk   contr.) 10:43, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this article seems to have been 'filled out' by a few interested only in criticising Haussmann-ian Paris. Criticisms are fine, but there's no need for terms like that.THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 12:36, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

text: 0.o I added that phrase. It was used to describe a quarter that imitated Haussmannian architecture, and it was a direct translation from the French article. Opinionated for sure, I'll change it. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 12:49, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

text: Gone now. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 21:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Legacy, not neutral

message: This article is a translation from French Wikipedia. The original article is huge, if anybody wants to help finish the translation, you're very welcome.
: I can help. What is there to translate? Perhaps a 'to do' list would be handy. I to believe the original article is User:Thbz's doing, and it is quite an extraordinary piece of work. I promised a plan but have yet to finish it - been too busy working and arguing on talk pages : ) Things to do then. THEPROMENADER 17:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I started where I thought the page had left off, but skipped a part... will go back and complete that later. For the time being I moved the "summary critique" section to the end of the article - hope this doesn't disrupt anything. THEPROMENADER 19:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Added missing "Critics" introduction today. THEPROMENADER 19:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I think the article could use some details on the origin of the architectural choices, it seems similar to Great Pulteney Street in Bath but I dont know if there is any connection? Paraphrased (talk) 09:03, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: After completing a literal translation of a section of this article's French original, I cut the following from the "criticisms" section - it contains some quite interesting additional information that of course would make a great addition to the original text. 
===Other Criticisms===
Politicians and intellectuals sued the préfet over speculation and corruption surrounding these renovations. In La Curée (1871-72), Emile Zola described a common scheme of the time, where investors managed to get information on the buildings to be destroyed with the help of corrupt city officials, bought them for what they were worth, usually a very low price, and made profits from the expropriation compensations. Haussmann himself was accused of corruption, which resulted in his dismissal on January 5, 1870. The opera play Les Comptes fantastiques de Haussmann, in 1867, criticized this speculation period — the title is a play on words between contes, stories or tales - as in Les contes d'Hoffmann or Tales of Hoffmann, and comptes, accounts.
Artists and architects, (Charles Garnier among others) condemned the suffocating monotony of this monumental architecture. The Haussmann-type buildings were often seen as ugly. Many Parisians were troubled by the destruction of "old roots". Historian Robert Herbert says that "the impressionist movement depicted this loss of connection in such paintings as Manet's Bar at Folies (1882)." The subject of the painting is talking to a man, seen in the mirror behind her, but seems unengaged. According to Herbert, this is a symptom of living in Paris at this time: the citizens became detached from one another. "The continuous destruction of physical Paris led to a destruction of social Paris as well." 
Haussmann's works, such as linking the four main train stations to large boulevards, were later seen as much as military engineering than as "civil planning". Indeed, this tied together the countryside and their garnisons to Paris, which at the time rarely saw a year without some type of disturbs or another (the July Revolution, the 1848 Revolution and the 1871 Paris Commune camouflage the smaller, daily, uprisings). Thus, this improved system of circulation allowed Adolphe Thiers' artillery to move in Paris, while the large boulevards made it difficult to create any long-standing barricade. The Commune was thus crushed in May 1871 by Adolphe Thiers, who since the 1848 Revolution and Haussman's renovation, had prepared his military plan: retreat from Paris to better crush the insurgents with military help (in part provided by the Prussians, who released war prisoners, etc.). 
In the 1960s, the Situationist International added a new layer of interpretation to Haussmann's renovation: instead of only analyzing the military aims of this supposedly civil-planning, Guy Debord and other situationnists pointed out how his arrangement had structured Paris into various functional zones, prefiguring contemporary functionalism, in particular as described by Le Corbusier: leisure areas (such as the Bois de Vincennes), work areas, etc. This spatial differenciation was joined by social segregation. Of course, the IS criticized this functionalism, on behalf of its "psychogeographic" theories: it claimed that this zonage imposed specific behaviours on individuals according to their setting (for example, playing soccer in a park, but not in the street; praying in a church, instead of using them, as during the Commune, for political reunions, etc.).
THEPROMENADER 11:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section to integrate 

message: Politicians and intellectuals sued the préfet over speculation and corruption surrounding these renovations. In La Curée (1871-72), Emile Zola described a common scheme of the time, where investors managed to get information on the buildings to be destroyed with the help of corrupt city officials, bought them for what they were worth, usually a very low price, and made profits from the expropriation compensations. Haussmann himself was accused of corruption, which resulted in his dismissal on January 5, 1870. The opera play Les Comptes fantastiques de Haussmann, in 1867, criticized this speculation period — the title is a play on words between contes, stories or tales - as in Les contes d'Hoffmann or Tales of Hoffmann, and comptes, accounts.
Artists and architects, (Charles Garnier among others) condemned the suffocating monotony of this monumental architecture. The Haussmann-type buildings were often seen as ugly. Many Parisians were troubled by the destruction of "old roots". Historian Robert Herbert says that "the impressionist movement depicted this loss of connection in such paintings as Manet's Bar at Folies (1882)." The subject of the painting is talking to a man, seen in the mirror behind her, but seems unengaged. According to Herbert, this is a symptom of living in Paris at this time: the citizens became detached from one another. "The continuous destruction of physical Paris led to a destruction of social Paris as well." 
Haussmann's works, such as linking the four main train stations to large boulevards, were later seen as much as military engineering than as "civil planning". Indeed, this tied together the countryside and their garnisons to Paris, which at the time rarely saw a year without some type of disturbs or another (the July Revolution, the 1848 Revolution and the 1871 Paris Commune camouflage the smaller, daily, uprisings). Thus, this improved system of circulation allowed Adolphe Thiers' artillery to move in Paris, while the large boulevards made it difficult to create any long-standing barricade. The Commune was thus crushed in May 1871 by Adolphe Thiers, who since the 1848 Revolution and Haussman's renovation, had prepared his military plan: retreat from Paris to better crush the insurgents with military help (in part provided by the Prussians, who released war prisoners, etc.). 
In the 1960s, the Situationist International added a new layer of interpretation to Haussmann's renovation: instead of only analyzing the military aims of this supposedly civil-planning, Guy Debord and other situationnists pointed out how his arrangement had structured Paris into various functional zones, prefiguring contemporary functionalism, in particular as described by Le Corbusier: leisure areas (such as the Bois de Vincennes), work areas, etc. This spatial differenciation was joined by social segregation. Of course, the IS criticized this functionalism, on behalf of its "psychogeographic" theories: it claimed that this zonage imposed specific behaviours on individuals according to their setting (for example, playing soccer in a park, but not in the street; praying in a church, instead of using them, as during the Commune, for political reunions, etc.).</div>
THEPROMENADER 11:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Other Criticisms

message: This merger proposal is logical and appropriate, and I support it. ---Charles 02:16, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger 

message: I'm not sure why this article was originally tagged for copyediting. Rintrah 14:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyediting 

message: There's something confusing about the "design" of Paris streets, that I dearly hope somebody will explain. One understands that Haussmann laid out the city with many  aspirations and intentions: one of these was possibly to quell, control or mitigate rioting. Due to Haussmann's varied objectives, the streets were widened. The problem is that however many times I read this, when I visits Paris I encounter those (seemingly contradictory) small streets that are set at oblique angles to larger streets, the "design" of which seem to serve no purpose: perhaps they were not created, but were in fact just a consequence of the new wide boulevards that cut across them. However, many Parisians say that these diagonal, slanted angles were deliberate, and that intersection angles like this were arranged in order to to "enable troops to outflank barricades". Whenever I've been told this, I've mistakenly just nodded wisely, instead of querying the subject further. A further problem is that there seems to be very little evidence of this information on the web. I found this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/4729094/Paris-is-for-lovers-and-rioters.html (which mentions "outflanking barricades" but does not explain it), and this: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/15/books/fun-cite.html which again mentions the oblique angles but does not even explain them. One thing is for certain: they exist. So A/ could somebody please explain how these angles could help French troops, and B/ perhaps explain why there is hardly any information about it on the web? For example, why is it not mentioned in the wikipedia articles on Haussmann? I thank you in advance.
: Your first thought is best: the new boulevards did cut through a tangle of preexisting streets, and some of these naturally ended up at some awkward angle (in those cases where they were not subsumed by a new square or suchlike). Quelling uprisings is a vast subject, and topological advantage is surely a big part of it, but it there be any tactical advantage, it is wholly coincidental. The very existence of a network wide boulevards is the main consideration from a riot police point of view (who to the present day struggle to maintain clear dividing lines between protesters, CRS, and general public). On a minor note, oblique angles are a mathematical certainty whenever more than 4 roads meet. Do not ascribe to military genius what can be attributed to mere geometry. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:C121:DC7F:D3AC:E10A (talk) 14:36, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oblique street intersections 

message: As the references section states, this article is a translation from French wikipedia, where it is an FA, well cited. I've only scanned the translation policy but I'm pretty sure that there's no need to add all the citations here, especially since they are mostly in French. If anyone could clarify this i would be grateful, otherwise I'll remove the banner soon. 18:08, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:26, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion