Talk:Warsaw Uprising (1794)/Archive 1

message: I found some more interesting references on Google Print:
* Igelstorm was apparently a poor tactician: it was because of his decisions that Russians regiments in Warsaw were scattered around the city, and this were indeed caught isolated (
* Igelstorm was also the ambassador to Poland  (no year given, however, but the flow of the text seems to indicate he had this position BEFORE the uprising)
*  indicates that the garrison was taken by suprise and suffered 50% casualties (4000 killed, 2000 prisoner according to the the previous source )
*  this reference notes that Russians 'fought with the courage of desperation' (doesn't sound like a massare of unarmed soldiers to me). It also gives few more details on the uprising, the strenght of the initial Russian garrison at 6,000 (after Igelstorm send out some troops to quell uprings elsewhere), and survivors at 900. It als calls the uprinsng the "most legitimate insurrection, in which insurgents rose only to expel foreigners and to restore constitution granted by the lawful king".
* "Igelstorm was preparing to exile 26 men" - presumably one of the triggers for the uprising
*: "coarse and brutal Igelstrom ruled with pride and insolence in Warsaw". Nice quotation, don't you think so? This reference also confirms it was the Maundy Tuesday.
There are still more books to check (see ). Can we find anything that references to 'the massacre of unarmed soldiers going to Church'? PS. Another thought: can we check what day of the week were 17th to 19th April 1794, and if the Maundy Thursday for Russian Orthodox Church was then (17th, I'd assume)?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:08, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Last of the sources above mentions that the Russians had fortified themselves in Igelstrom's mansion, a chapel and three adjoining houses, barricading the doors. Together with the riddle of the first Orthodox church in Warsaw solved above it gives us a pretty decent overview of what gave the rise to that Russian storyteller's revelations about soldiers massacred in a chapel. The chapel was most probably the Capuchin's Church (Catholic) at Miodowa, located right on the other side of the street from Russian envoy's palace. It is evidenced as well by Norblin's sketches. On this one you see the fighting on Miodowa street, in front of both the church and the palace. The earlier is visible to the left, the latter - to the right. //Halibutt 23:34, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As to the feasts, I checked that the Orthodox pascha of 1794 was indeed April 20 (Sunday, as always). So 19 must've been a Saturday. //Halibutt 23:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As a side note: I find it quite typical that neither of us tried to add as one-sided remarks to this article as found in the sources you provided (most legitimate insurrection, in which insurgents rose only to expel foreigners and to restore constitution granted by the lawful king) while the other side... nyah, you know what I mean. Good going, gentlemen! //Halibutt 23:41, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Tnx for the info - and that's a beautiful deconstruction of the 'revelation' above :) We could use a few stubs on Capuchin's Church, Warsaw Arsenal and such, when you have time.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 00:16, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New references 

message: Non-frivolously placed "fact" tags should be replaced with refs rather than removed. And if the ref is in Polish or non-online, please take time to translate/cite the context, similar to how I did with the Russian ref. I am envious to Halibutt and Blacer who can make use of the Russian refs in addition to English and Polish ones. I can't make use of Polish refs. Thanks, --Irpen 03:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed and done. I know how you feel, being unable to ready Russian. Actually I'd like for the 'online Arsenal citation' to be more specific, as the it links to the homepage - which has no info on the uprising whatsoever.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:12, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: fact tags

message: This article in Polish has much information on the events that led to the uprising (it was prepared since spring 1793).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And we have now an article on pl-wiki too.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Molobo has sent me a link to this book (pages 200+), which details much of the fighting, including the fights in the Capuchin's monastery. It also explains that the Russian soldiers were all given arms the day before and clears many other things mentioned in that Russian fable. It also gives some more exact numbers for both sides. If time permits I'll try to expand this article to include as much from it as possible. //Halibutt 14:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 404. :( --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:04, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Strange, it works for me... Perhaps you should try the main page and browse for Dzieje Insurekcji Kościuszkowskiej by Kazimierz Bartoszewicz. BTW, the book is scanned in simple jpegs, and the author died in 1930, which means that we could possibly use the pictures published there. //Halibutt 17:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, maybe it's problem with their javascript. The second solution works for me, generating a http://www.pbi.edu.pl/book_reader.php?p=17228&s=1 slightly different link]. I did a little reasearch on Kazimierz Bartoszewicz, so we know more about the validity of his work. His book was reprinted in 2002. I'll make a stub on him for future reference.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:56, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Preparations for the uprising

message: Suggestions:
# Needs thorough copyediting. I'll make an attempt, but I think it should be done more than once by an anglophone editor.
# Red links: Krakowskie Przedmieście could possibly have an article, and presumably the personalities would too, but some are not good. Polish 10th Regiment on Foot and Polish 4th Regiment of Front Guard are not English. If the "Front Guard" is a unit of the Imperial Russian Army, which is how it reads to me, it will have a "standard" English name, but will these ever have articles written on them ? Temporary Highest Council and Highest National Council are also not good. Davies uses Supreme National Council for the second, and the first should presumably be Provisional something, although I didn't find anything useful. If all else fails, Provisional National Council might do, but a source would be good. 
# Unlinked the dubious ones for now and made changes: Polish 10th Regiment on Foot -> Polish 10th Infantry Regiment; Polish 4th Regiment of Front Guard -> 4th Frontier Guard Regiment; Temporary Highest Council -> Provisional National Council (but should it be Supreme Provisional Council, that sounds odd in English, but that doesn't matter if it's more correct); Highest National Council -> Supreme National Council.
# There's no mention of Sierakowski, the only person other than Kiliński I had heard of in relation to the 1794 insurrection.
# Background missing: the Krakowiacy i górale performance being cancelled. Not a key point to be sure.
# Poor references: mainly too old or not in English. I appreciate that there will inevitably be a need to cite Polish language works, but where's Norman Davies ?
# Seems to me to overstate the "military" aspect of the uprising and downplay the insurrectionary and revolutionary side of things, but I base this on a very little reading and an afternoon looking at paintings of Polish insurrections in the National Museum. Doing this could help with Irpen's concerns and avoid the attempts at pathos which are there now.
Hope this helps. It's intended to be constructive criticism, and I hope that it reads that way. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 16:49, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed its nomination for now.  Please feel free to renominate when comments have been addressed (or rebutted!).  Worldtraveller 19:49, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not being a native speaker, I prefer to leave the first 2 points to somebody who is. I'll try to address the third point, especially as there is some material that can be translated from pl wiki and used to expand the 'prelude' section.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:01, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: GA nom

message: Hello all. As promised, I'm currently expanding this article significantly. During my work I discovered several strange things that are currently in the article. One of them is the cited number of the civilians to join the militias and take part in the fights. The article claims there were 40,000 people there, which is strange considering Pistor estimated the entire Polish force to not more than 2400 men (civilians and regulars combined), while Polish authors usually estimate the number of civilians at "not more than 3000". Where is this number taken from? Perhaps from Kiliński, but he is hardly a reliable source (check Bartoszewicz's comments on Kiliński's reliability - they're hillarious). Besides, Warsaw at that time (1792) had less than 115,000 inhabitants altogether. It's rather unbelievable every third of them joined the uprising... //Halibutt 00:20, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If there are no refs, and you have better ones, then be bold and use your numbers :) Btw, check my comments above about confusing things.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 06:37, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  40,000 civilians...? 

message: At present, there are at least three Wikipedia articles with similar titles:
 1) This article: 'Warsaw Uprising (1794)'
 2) another article on an uprising during WWII: 'Warsaw Ghetto Uprising'
 3) another article on the final uprising of WWII: 'Warsaw Uprising'
The disambiguation page on item #3 above can be cloned and modified for items #1 and 3.  It currently reads:
Warsaw Uprising (disambiguation)
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Although the best known uprising in Warsaw, Poland, is the armed struggle of 1944, there were also a number of other struggles to take place there:
 Warsaw Uprising (1794), during Kościuszko's Uprising, also known as Insurretion of Warsaw.
 Warsaw Uprising (1830), on November 29, an opening stage of the November Uprising.
 Warsaw Uprising (1905), sometimes used by historians to denote the strikes and riots during the Revolution of 1905.
 Warsaw Uprising (1943), better known as the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
 Warsaw Uprising (1944), during the Operation Tempest of the Armia Krajowa.
If you can assist with this editorial change, it would be greatly appreciated  -thanks.  (Zoomeri)
:Done (I guess). //Halibutt 07:06, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation reference needed for this webpage title