Talk:Magic in the Greco-Roman world

message: I started to examine the reference for this article, and I do not believe many of the sources were ever used in the creation of the article. This is not the first time I have noticed a large list of references created to bolster an article in hopes they will not be verified. I will give an opportunity to add page reverences to the individual works to specify where they re related to an this article before I begin deleting. One of the first sources I questioned and pulled made no reference at all to magic, or the assertions made in the article. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 15:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Which source?  Ford MF (talk) 19:59, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed References List 

message: Amazon says he's boring, but surely essential to the article? Which I agree, it's an essay. Stubify, start all over. You can't rewrite an essay to make it encyclopedia. Doug Weller (talk) 14:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: for once, I tend to disagree with Doug. It would be a pity to stubify this. If you want to spend some time with this, apply inline tags to dubious passages. Somebody will need to sit down for a few hours with it before it turns into a good article, I'll agree, but there is some good material to work with already.  It is difficult to overestimate the impact of the "Hellenistic New Age boom", but this applies only to say 200 BC to 300 AD, not the entire "Greco-Roman world".  --dab (𒁳) 18:27, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fritz Graf 

message: If we remove every instance of personal interpretation, labeling divine intervention and other acts in primary source material as magic, it leaves a thin and incoherent section. I believe it should be deleted. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 19:39, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Completely delete "Homeric magic"? 

message: The article does not support its own claims. It identifies both Orpheus and Pythagoras as theois aner, which he reports to translate to "divine man", but can be more correctly translated to "man of God." This is in the same light as other miracle workers. The main source labeling Empedocles as a magus does not make such a statement. There is nothing there to salvage. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 20:22, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There are good sources. Arcana Mundi: Magic and the Occult in the Greek and Roman Worlds - A Collection of Ancient Texts , G. Luck, John Hopkins University Press; 2Rev Ed edition (16 May 2006). Among the Gods: An Archaeological Exploration of Ancient Greek Religion By John Ferguson has a chapter on magic. I've already mentioned Kraft. Magic and Magicians in the Greco-Roman World by Matthew Dickie Routledge; 1 edition (19 Dec 2002) can be 'searched inside'  looks extremely useful. This is clearly a valid field of study, the article needs fixing, sure, including this section.  Doug Weller (talk) 21:34, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I pulled my copy of Arcana Mundi, and it calls Orpheus, Pythagoras, and Empedocles miracle-workers, theois andres, and "divine men" (page 11). Additionally, despite attributing the claims of this section to other sources, it appears to be a synopsis of pages 41 and 42. In fact, it so closely resembles those pages (even representing the sources Luck used as the original contributor's own), that I think it may cross the line into plagiarism.--151.201.149.209 (talk) 13:36, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

text: 151.201.149.209, from the discussions above it is becoming increasingly clear that you have preconceived opinions that you're trying hard to read into your various sources. Rather than providing quotes which directly support your statements, you're relying on your own analyses, such as word searches. You also discount certain highly regarded authors on the subject because they're "writing for a specific audience" (that audience being scholars of greco-roman magic!) or because you claim they have made some error and cannot be trusted. Such analyses on your part constitute original research, and have no place at Wikipedia. Not even on the talk pages. All this verbiage is getting out of hand, and it's made worse by the fact that, when challenged on any particular point, you simply skip to some different and equally unconvincing point. You are coming up with copious references, but don't seem to have understood them, and you are dragging your heels on providing the clarifications of source texts that I have requested, specifically a quote from Lesley and Roy Adkins regarding magicians being extinct by the time of classical greece. You obviously have access to a lot of books, but I don't want to hear 20 vague assertions each with an author's name tacked on the end, I want to see one concrete statement in the Adkins' own words. If you can't give us that, then how can you expect us to take any of your other citations seriously? Fuzzypeg★ 23:00, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason I can state authors like Luck are writing for a specific audience is because their claims of what was and was not magic is not supported by works on ancient Greek history, culture, and religion. If you want to have an article about curse tablets, wax dolls, and amulets then fine, go for it, but many of the claims made in this article cannot be substantiated outside of books with the word "magic" in the title. Again, you seem to present an opinion that books actually on the subject of the Greek religion and Greek philosophy are not valid. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 13:48, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delete section "Magic in Classical Greece"? 

message: I need some other editors to help out here! User:151.201.149.209 has been making some fairly extensive deletions from the article and is pushing for even more sweeping alterations, which seem to be based entirely on WP:OR (see discussion above). I've been trying to hold things together, with a little help from a couple of other editors, but there's a limit to how much time I can spend on this. If you have any knowledge/expertise in this area, please jump in and help me out! Thanks, Fuzzypeg★ 02:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have Mikalson's Religion in Hellenistic Athens (as well as others of his works) and I think you will be disappointed. Like I said before, academic works actually on ancient Greek history, culture, and religion do not support the claims made in this article. The only mention of magic in Mikalson's work is a vague reference to curse tablets and wax dolls, on page 319, in a larger paragraph about religiosity.--151.201.149.209 (talk) 12:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Many scholars present what can be described as fringe theories. Pointing to two sources that wish to describe and argue that religious practices are magical, and holy men and philosophers are magicians, does not make it a widely accepted idea. If you want to call Circe a witch then fine, but this article does limit itself to those individuals generally accepted as witches and magicians, and those acts that are generally accepted as magic. Arcana Mundi also paints Jesus as a socerer from the Greco-Roman world. This is not a fringe theory? --151.201.149.209 (talk) 15:56, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You're too eager to jump to black and white conclusions. You have for instance asked me to commit myself to deciding whether religious practices do or don't count as magic, when the boundary between religion and magic is generally considered to be rather hazy. Philosophers too, you insist either were or weren't magicians, despite the broad diversity of schools of philosophy in the ancient world: surely it is possible that some philosophers strayed more into the realm of magic than others??! These strict polarisations aren't present in our sources, only in your own analyses. The sources present more sophisitcated accounts. For example, Jesus is not (as you claim) painted by Luck as a sorcerer; rather Luck shows how certain deeds attributed to Jesus corresponded with contemporary views of magic, and how Jesus was thus seen by some Greeks, Romans and Talmudic scholars as a magician. Fuzzypeg★ 20:39, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: None of what you wrote defends this article in the condition that it is in. If you want to have a philosophical debate regarding the boundaries of religion and magic, you should probably do that some place like MysticWicks. This article is suppose to be encyclopedic with a NPOV. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 21:14, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fortunately we don't have to rely on our own analyses, no matter how sophisticated or otherwise. We have reliable academic scholars to draw on, and all we have to do is faithfully report what they say. I'm not trying to promote any of my own theories. Fuzzypeg★ 21:58, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help! 

message: I had deleted the Wisdom of Solomon because the sources noted did not validate. Fuzzypeg restored it adding citations to Arcana Mundi. The fact that Fuzzypeg was able to "validate" the information with Arcana Mundi is because the information comes directly from Arcana Mundi pages 57-59. The original contributor had even plagiarized that same butchered quote of D. Winston, trans. of The Wisdom of Solomon, which Fuzzypeg has only added a citation pointing to Luck's butchered quote of the text. This provides additional proof this essay nothing but a synopsis of the chapter called Magic from Arcana Mundi. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 15:41, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed it is a pity that whoever added this text didn't cite Luck, and instead gave his second-hand sources. Bad form indeed. However, once this is corrected I don't see any problem, and in fact, Arcana Mundi is a great resource to use widely throughout the article, given that Luck is so well regarded, and provides such clear, accessible summaries of all the important areas. I know you don't like Luck, and if you can find some reliable published criticisms of Arcana Mundi then we can reconsider how much weight we give to his opinions. Until then I don't see any problem with him. Fuzzypeg★ 20:50, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wisdom of Solomon info was deleted 

message: This was found with a line-by-line analysis of the "Further defining types of magic" section. One plagiarized line was already mentioned talking about Plotinus. Starting on page page 51 of Arcana Mundi.
Arcana Mundi: Our material permits a division of magical operations into two man kinds, theurgical and goetic.
Article: In some texts that discuss magical practices, there are some interesting differentiations made between theurgical and goetic uses of power.
Arcana Mundi: The word theurgia calls for a brief explanation. In some contexts it appears to be simply a glorified kind of magic practiced by a highly respected priestlike figure, not an obscure magician.
Article: The word theurgia in some contexts appears simply to try and glorify the kind of magic that is being practiced – usually a respectable priest-like figure is associated with the ritual.
Arcana Mundi: In a typical theurgical rite the divinity appears in one of two ways: (1) it is seen in a trance, in which case the soul of the theurgist or medium leaves the body, ascends to heaven, sees the divinity there, and then returns to describe the experience; (2) it descends to earth and is seen by the theurgist either in a dream or when he is fully awake.
Article: Further, in a typical theurgical rite the divinity appears in one of two ways: 1. The spirit is seen in a trance, and the soul of the theurgist leaves the body, ascends to heaven, sees the divinity, and then returns to recount the experience and the knowledge learned from it. 2. The spirit descends to earth and is seen by the theurgist either in a dream or when he is fully awake.
Arcana Mundi: The philosophers interested in magic describe themselves as theurgists, and the lower-class practitioners as magoi or goetes.
Article: Thus it is not surprising to see philosophers interested in magic describe themselves as theurgists, to try and distinguish themselves from the lower-class practitioners - the magoi or goetes.
Arcana Mundi: Hence, it could be argued that the term theuria of late antiquity, who would have been horrified to be called Magoi or goetes, especially the latter, since that term could also designate a juggler or chrlatan..."
Article: The term goetia by contrast is derogative, indicating low, specious or fraudulent mageia in Greek, just as theurgia is a more exalted form of magic.
I think this seals the deal on this article. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 17:45, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Plagiarism and paraphrasing aren't the same thing, folks.  See: plagiarism.  Ford MF (talk) 18:22, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're concerned about potential copyright violations, the offending text should indeed be rewritten.  But that's not really your argument here, is it, as you want the text removed (despite, as you have now demonstrated, its strong reliance on reliable sources).  Ford MF (talk) 18:25, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The text in question is plagiarized, because it is a paraphrased version of an uncited source. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:50, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Someone else suggested it, but this really will require turning the article into a stub. It means starting from scratch, and providing a more balanced interpretation of history. As is, a good 95% of the article is completely from Luck, and the existing citations are not only plagiarized, but fail verification beyond citing Luck. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 21:20, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not at all. With your gratefully received help, I've managed to clean that section up superbly. It could be worked in a little better with the rest of the article, and the section title could perhaps be improved, but apart from that it's looking much better. There're probably more of the same problems scattered through the article, and as we find them we can apply similar fixes. Cheers, Fuzzypeg★ 22:07, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I noticed that you cleaned up the section mostly by adding citations to Luck's work, but I don't really think that completely fixed the main problem. For example, I deleted the Plotinus reference because it failed verification. You restored it, and since this came to light, added the citation to Luck's book. While it is an accurate description of what Luck said, Luck misapplies Plotinus' writing to theurgy. The citations throughout this article that I either marked as failing verification, or deleted them, still fail verification whether it is the Wikipedia contributor citing the original source, or it is Luck citing the original source. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 05:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to remove the Plotinus reference then go ahead. I actually had a bit of a read of Plotinus and thought Luck was summarising him rather well, but the reference to Luck is probably more useful since he provides a broad summary and a much simpler read. So feel free. Fuzzypeg★ 21:10, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Great! I think these sections could do with a bit of copy-editing anyway. Look at how cumbersome even just the first sentence of "Homeric magic" is, for instance! These sections can surely be made more readable and concise, and we can deal to any copyright violations, all in one blow! I have to do some work (my real work) now, but I'll come back to it and try my hand at fixing things up. Again, thanks for finding this! Fuzzypeg★ 22:25, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plagiarism 

message: I originally suggested this section "Homeric magic," be deleted because it represented original research, but it in fact is another example of the plagiarizing of Luck's book, mostly from pages 39-40. From page 41 to 44 is the section "Magic in Classical Greece", and "Magic in the Hellenistic period" is taken primarily from pages 44 to 51. Even Luck's quotes of other works, and citations. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 19:07, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Great! I think these sections could do with a bit of copy-editing anyway. Look at how cumbersome even just the first sentence of "Homeric magic" is, for instance! These sections can surely be made more readable and concise, and we can deal to any copyright violations, all in one blow! I have to do some work (my real work) now, but I'll come back to it and try my hand at fixing things up. Again, thanks for finding this! Fuzzypeg★ 22:25, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  More 

message: I have given the article a more adequate lead section, and restructured the early sections (before the main historical material). I have cut nothing out. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Restructuring

message: Plotinus is a theurgist, people on the talk page think the first edition of Arcana Mundi is a primary source, Graf is dismsissed as 'Boring'. Ugh. Somebody needs to completely rewrite this page.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.152.40.98 (talk) 04:00, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The editing of this article is treated as private territory by those with an affinity toward Ceremonial Magic and Neo-Paganism. There is no way to create a balanced and encyclopedic article with a NPOV. --151.201.146.212 (talk) 17:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Right! the "Ceremonial Magic and Neo-Paganism" cabal are running the show.. Abandon all hope puny bunches of numbers.—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 19:21, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: What a horrible Mess

message: In regard to this edit, Iao (the more common English spelling) is probably going to be hard to disambiguate. We don't have an article on Iao. We have bits and pieces scattered here and there as if Wikipedia editors are able to sort into distinct categories the wildly overlapping and confusing use of this name in antiquity. What we need is a single article that collects and explains all the uses (in magic, especially inscriptions; in Gnosticism; Varro's identification of Iao as the god of the Jews) in ways helpful to the confused reader without of course implying that these figures are all the same Iao. Summary sections could direct to further discussions. This would be fiendishly difficult to accomplish. Cynwolfe (talk) 20:31, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jao 

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thread_title:  External links modified