Talk:Ze'ev Jabotinsky

message: I removed the following because it does not appear in Jabotinsky's editorial of that date and title. http://jabotinsky.org/jabo_multimedia/articlesl/hebrew/%D7%AA%201919_9.pdf
"Internationally, we will announce that those Jews who do not remove the rust of the exile from themselves and refuse to shave their beard and sidelocks (payos) will be second class citizens. They will not be given the right to vote." (From "Outside the encampment" Ha'aretz Newspaper 22 Oct 1919)"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84silence (talk • contribs) 04:13, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fabricated Quote 

message: The Irgun was founded by people that left the Hagana, later people that were inspired by Jabotinsky took over the organization.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tzvi23 (talk • contribs) 13:07, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The foundation of the Irgun 

message: "He is also seen within the Modern Orthodox world as a symbol of Torah Umadda" - a source is needed for this, since Jabotinsky was a "thoroughly secular atheist" ( and plenty of other sources).  --Zero 14:12, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Torah Umadda

message: According to the edition made in Polish Wikipedia, in 1934 Jabotinsky obtain help from fascist regime in Italia. Fascist militia was conducting military training of young Zionists from his organization. Can any one confirm this information? Superborsuk 22:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't confirm it definitively, but it would fit. Keep in mind that, entirely unlike Hitler, Mussolini was not an anti-Semite. I've seen some sort of liaison with Fascist Italy alluded to in what I would consider reliable sources (including the essay I mention in the next section), but I've never seen anything that had that as its focus. - Jmabel | Talk 15:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sources for this include Shavit's book on the Revisionist movement.  There's also an article on the topic that I didn't read yet: Vincenzo Pinto, Between imago and res: The Revisionist–Zionist Movement's Relationship with Fascist Italy, 1922–1938, Israel Affairs, Volume 10, Number 3 / Spring 2004, 91-109. --Zerotalk 08:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've read that Betar maintained a training ship in Italy, but I can't remember the source at the moment! --Ian Pitchford 14:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm no expert on this but the historian Bernard Wasserstein, in his 2007 book Barbarism and Civilization (page 245/6), says "Even the Jews generated a quasi-Fascist movement, the Revisionist Zionist Party, later known as the New Zionist Organization, led by Vladimir Jabotinsky and popular in Poland in the 1930s." Thomas Peardew (talk) 08:56, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't like to be misrepresent Wasserstein here. We tend to use "fascist" and "nazi" as synonyms nowadays, but Wasserstein in the passage from which the quote comes is specifically discussing Europe's "Little Dictators" (and not Germany), and the comparison is to Mussolini's Italian Fascism specifically and not to nazism.Thomas Peardew (talk) 09:58, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

text: I similarly am not an expert, but there there is a relevant journalistic report ostensibly written in Tel Aviv, published in the "International Council Correspondence", Chicago, USA, Vol. III, No. 4, April 1937. It is called The Brownshirts of Zionism by Abner Barnatan (a pseudonism of Walter Aubach), wherein the author compares Jabotinsky's revisionism, its organisation, and political tactics with those of various European Fascist Movements.  Interestingly, Aubach explicitly compares Revisionism to 'Hitlerism', writing
'The Revisionists organized strike breakers, their activities resulting in pressing on the wage standard. Parading their Brown-shirts thru the streets, they did everything to provoke the workers. They attacked meetings (a meeting in honor of Brailsford, the English Socialist, was bombarded with stones by their hooligans) and organized gangs to beat up political opponents. Some years ago terrorist groups belonging to their party were discovered in Jerusalem and in Tel Aviv. In 1933 the Revisionist speakers and newspapers conducted an incredible campaign of slander, on the lines of the recent Salengro campaign in France, against Dr. Arlosoroff, then leader of the Labor Party and prominent member of the Zionist Executive. On June 15, the Revisionist Organ culminated its "mud-slinging' campaign by depicting him as a"traitor to the Jewish People, its honor and security". Thirty hours later he (Dr. Arlosoroff) was dead - assassinated in Tel Aviv, the 100% Jewish town.
Similar tactics are employed outside of Palestine. The spread of anti-semitism is welcomed by the Revisionists. They do not fight it. Rather they utilize it to further their own ends. While a wave of persecution and torture swept Germany after the Hitler coup, Jabotinsky made a speech in public in Berlin which was nothing less than a wholesale indictment of the Socialists within the Zionist movement. The aforementioned Hebrew Organ of the Revisionists, the "Hasit Ha'am", 1933, glorified Hitler and presented his movement as a shining example to Zionism. They admire Mussolini and Franco.
In Germany the Revisionists carried out raids on labor clubs. In other countries they perform attacks on Socialists. In other words, the peculiar "spirit" and methods of the Brownshirts are shown to be quite compatible with Judaism. Revisionism proper might be described, to use a mathematical formula, as "Zionism plus Hitlerism", or as "Hitlerism minus Anti-semitism".'
Though the comparison is rightly crass in our times and Aubach demonstrates racism both toward Eastern European and Mizrahi (in his words 'Oriental') Jews, and Arab Palestinians, it is of historical interest that before the Shoah such direct comparisons between Jabotinky's revisionism and Fascism (whether Italian or Nazi) were being drawn.  
https://libcom.org/library/brownshirts-of-zionism-barnatan
(82.36.107.129 (talk) 20:34, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Benito Mussolini|Mussolini]] and Jabotinsky?

message: I was very surprised that there was no WP article ON THE MEDAL CREATED IN HIS HONOR.
:So I've started a STUB on it.
::Can I get some help in expanding the article on the Jabotinsky Medal?
:::Yours truly, Ludvikus 16:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Jabotinsky Medal]] 

message: What an odd article! You don't really get any flavour of the guy. There's not even any mention of Petliura, which was a bit of a cause infame at the time. Given the importance of understanding revisionist Zionism in understanding the policies of Likud and similar nationalist groups, it's all a bit odd. Grace Note 04:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Odd article 

message: This article claims that Jabotinsky was awarded the MBE (see intro). Oddly, I couldn't find any other reference to this on the Internet (except, of course, on mirrors of this Wikipedia article). It may or may not be true, but it seems to be, in the current state of the article, an unsourced statement. Can anyone provide a reliable source (for or against the claim)? --- Hillel 15:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Member of the [[Order of the British Empire]]?

message: "Today in Upstate New York the militant Jewish Defense Organization runs a training camp named after him called Camp Jabotinsky. There young Jews learn gun training, security and how to protect Jews from attack."
That second line is incredibly biased; there's a militant organization conducting training in upstate New York. Keep in mind that this would be called a madrassa or terrorist training camp if they were Muslim, and it's called "learning to protect" here...
:agreed; one shudders to think what really goes on at "Camp Jabotinsky".  feel free to do some research & provide a more "encyclopedic" description. Whiskey Pete 01:35, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Camp Jabotinsky 

message: May be better use this
photo? Sorry for my english :) --Ergil 06:06, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo 

message: Hey. What's the story behind his name? Did he officially change to Zeev? If so, then why is his previous name written? Northern 11:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have any inside knowledge about why his parents named him Ze'ev (which means "wolf" in Hebrew), but it is customary for Jews to give their children Hebrew names at the circumcision ceremony. Presumably he had a grandfather or uncle named Ze'ev. In Russia, he used Vladimir, but in Israel, he was known by his Hebrew name.--Gilabrand 12:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In any case what is Ukrainian to do with it? Why it is mentioned before Russian or at all? 87.228.120.57 (talk) 03:38, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vladimir? 

message: was buried in New Montefiore cemetery in New York rather than in Palestine, in accordance with the statement in his will
This is poorly put, and only question-begging. Jabotinsky had suffered a permanent ban from Palestine in 1930. The option of being buried in Palestine did not exist at the time. He was buried outside, in this instance, in New Montefiore cemetery, not because this was 'in accordance' with his will, last testament, but simply because he died in the US. 
Something along the lines. 'was buried in New Montefiore cemetery, NY. In his will, he expressed the desire to be buried in Palestine only when it should acquire the status of a Jewish state.' etc.Nishidani (talk) 19:24, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Burial 

message: The Irgun page has a paragraph listing the accusations of terrorism. As such, would it be appropriate to call the Irgun a terrorist organization here? I would normally consider 10 sources describing the Irgun as a terrorist organization (cited in the Irgun page cite-notes 1-10) enough, but this could be quite contentious. I'll probably switch from 'underground' to 'terrorist' unless someone gives me an argument against this switch within a few days. Saganatsu (talk) 00:21, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: WP policy strongly discourages making such a change.  Except for the few, limited exceptions described, WP cannot use such labels in its own voice, and more neutral terms are preferable.  The Irgun page refers to the accusations and cites them, but otherwise avoids the contentious terms.  It would be appropriate to follow suit here by leaving things be. Hertz1888 (talk) 02:10, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Irgun]]? Terrorist Organization? 

message: I happened across this page when trying to identify the source of the quote "[It is] better to have a gun and not need it than to need [it/a gun] and not have [it/one]." Sounds like John Wayne; lots of online references to the movie True Romance so Christian Slater trumps Ze'ev there (which is preposterous). So far, Ze'ev predates all. But does the quip hail back farther?
N.B. Glad to have learned about Jabotinsky, much more valuable info than what brought me here.
Greg 21:14, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's such an trivial thought! Is it really worth researching who may have said it when? Wegesrand (talk) 07:40, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Off-topic: 'Better to have a gun...' quote 

message: I can not find any academic sources to justify the addition of the quote added by Winston S Smith. In order to avoid an edit war i would like to know if i am allowed to remove the quote for the third time or what the process is for challenging the quote of questionable authenticity? Thank you. ~Moshe  Moshekaye (talk) 00:02, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: While Winston S Smith's comments of "Zionist ideological control" are rather absurd, I agree with him on the issue. Of his three sources, Weitzfeld's Nation, Society and the State is self-published and likely not a reliable source. I have similar doubts about the Daily Kos. Ralph Schoenman's book, as reproduced on Marxists.org, is another matter: It's not self-published, and Schoenman in turn cites a book published with Zed Books for that quote. Those are reliable sources by Wikipedia's standards. Huon (talk) 01:55, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

text: I don't think that publisher is "marginal," considering the amount of Wikipedia that is based on it alone. For any article about America, race, or feminism, cultural Marxism is the rule. What makes you think that that quote is an "obvious outright lie?" Could you not imagine Jabotinsky saying it? Zionism is based on racial nationalism. After World War Two the organized Jewish community in America decided that "racism" was bad, as they wanted to flood America with third world immigrants and enforce integration. But they continued to support the racist Zionist project. So they had to pretend that Zionism wasn't racism. So they tried their best to purge the history books of evidence of Zionist racism and portray the Jews as the victim. Luckily for Americans, though, some Marxists aren't total hypocrites, and are willing to call Zionism out for being racist.Winston S Smith (talk) 03:20, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

text: Although I copied the text directly from Brenner (as cited), almost all of it can be verified in "Israel among the nations : selection of Zionist texts" (ed. Zvi Zohar; Jerusalem : World Zionist Organization, Organization Department, Research Section, 1966), by searching for snippets here.  There is also a discussion of the document in this book. Zerotalk 12:18, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quote added by Winston S Smith 

message: There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages. 
The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion. 
Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:39, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion|Request for Comments]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: Hi, I don't know if this is the right place to mention this but the "World War 1 Military Career" chapter has nothing to do with Ze'ev Jabotinsky, it's about Donald Trump. Jonyx66 (talk) 10:30, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Donald Trump? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 01:04, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  World War 1 Military Career 

message: Seems like some people here want to rewrite history.
Vladimir founded the Irgun, and it is indisputably a terrorist organization. 
I'm looking at a released CIA document right now that states, "...collected funds for the support of their "humanitarian" undertaking. These funds have largely been used to train and equip with arms the members of the society and to defray the costs of terrorist activities."
The society being referred to is the Irgun. The document is titled, and is cited and linked on my revision,"THE OBJECTIVES AND ACTIVITIES OF THE IRGUN ZVAI LEUMI" Top of page 4, and you'll find it.
Other legitimate sources, a litany of which I've provided, and some of which are found on government websites, are all cited. 
So where is the dispute stemming from? 
Edit:I'm trying to resolve this dispute through the talk page as Wikipedia recommends. I'm not receiving any engagement, and I'm still not seeing how my citations are considered illegitimate. Anyone care to debate.  2601:2C7:8580:4920:50EA:87EB:6B19:628F (talk) 19:11, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I see you now have an account, which has been blocked. One of your CIA sources is from Penthouse (magazine) by a US Senator.  This is not a document produced by the CIA itself. Instead the article made its way into a CIA file somehow, as a lot of press clippings and so forth did in the pre-internet era, even dissenting and dissident opinions. Basically some analyst or something thought it was interesting. And then a FOIA request caused it to be released in this state, with all the government markings and so forth written on it. What you have demonstrated is an inability to understand our sourcing policy or even to recognised what the source actually was. Doug Weller talk 07:42, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: And yet have to partially agree here. The proscription of Irgun is common fact. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:37, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @Iskandar323 Agreed. The issue is how we describe him. See Osama Bin Laden who we don't call a terrorist. The faq there says " Wikipedia has a guideline discouraging the use of words such as "terrorist", especially if it is improperly sourced. This is not an indication of condoning "terrorist" activities, but of neutrality, and avoidance of passing judgment, affirming, or denying. A consensus was reached on this talk page that bin Laden could be described as being on the FBI's list of Most Wanted Terrorists, and a target in the War on Terror. Please debate the merit of the guideline at Wikipedia talk:Words to avoid, not here." Doug Weller talk 11:34, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: We can use the language of proscription and classification without debate. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:51, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irgun's Terrorist History as it Pertains to its Leader, Vladimir Jabotinsky.