Talk:Sea of Japan naming dispute/Archive 3

message: Well, there is a wiki "three revert" rule that you don't follow. Also, the study that shows 1400 maps actually shows 1400 maps. That korean study with 700 shows about a dozen with no confirmed date of when the study took place and that study uses a select maps from various sources. It is obviously an incomplete study. Before you cry wiki policy with me, follow wiki policy yourself and stick to the three revert rule. Edit wars are not how wikipedia works. Discussing disputes on the talk page without an edit war is how wikipedia works. Masterhatch 3 September 2005
:I can make any claim I want and put it on the net on an official website. For example, I could make a claim that "I made a study and I found 3000 maps that show East Sea and 2 that showed Sea of Japan." I could type it up to make it look totally official, but unless I could back that up with a date of when I did the study and a list of maps that I checked, it is useless and unverifiable. Now, I am not saying that the Korean government didn't do that study in question, but unless we know more information about that study (for example when it was done and what maps they looked at), it can't be used as a source! Every other source cited on this dispute article meets that criteria. Why should we make an exception and allow an unverifiable source on this page? Masterhatch
the difference is that the article is about a recognized dispute, requiring an explanation of the position of the disputing parties. you & i are not a party to the recognized dispute between korea & japan.  the fact of the dispute is recognized by various authoritative sources, hence the existence of the dispute article. if masterhatch or appleby wanted to rename california, you & i may consider it a dispute, but national geographic wouldn't, & there would be no article on wikipedia about it.  since there is a recognized dispute about the sea of japan/east sea, there is a page discussing the dispute, by citing the relevant parties' positions, & what standards bodies have done. Appleby 15:27, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't doubt that there is a dispute. That is obvious and it is a fact that there is a dispute. This article is about the history of the dispute and the fact that there is a dispute is well known in the international community. There are already links from both the Korean and Japanese side stating the fact that there is a dispute. You are trying to put your link in the history section of the dispute, not the "proof of a dispute" section. There is no "proof of a dispute" section because don't need proof that there is one, it is common knowledge that there is one. The history section of this dispute is all about the history of said dispute, not the proof that there is a dispute. The other links all go to verifiable sites that do two things: show the verifiable studies and show that there is in fact a dispute. Why do we need an undated, unverifiable source to show that there is a dispute when the other links already do that (and the other links show both sides, not just one)? Masterhatch 4 September 2005
i think we're talking past each other somewhat, because the biggest problem i see is that you are deleting identification of one party's position as a disputed claim, leaving flat statements as facts, in the intro & paragraph about iho. this is so fundamental all else seemed peripheral to me. your top issue is the history section, which is more complicated. it seems to me, it should list actual historic developments, & is now overloaded with each side's repeating & one-upping, without any actual development.  to me, national geographic & rand mcnally's changes of position are more significant historic developments than each side coming back with their own bigger reports. let's discuss one thing at a time. Appleby 16:15, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

text: But you still can't have an undated unverifiable source. Let's get that solved first.Masterhatch 4 September 2005
-sigh- it is verifiable (that's what the party claims, see link). we can discuss the placement in the chronology, but don't delete the summary & link to the position, unless you delete all summaries & links to party positions. see above, methodology & verifiability of disputing party's position is irrelevant, what needs to be verifiable is that it is in fact the party's position.  all of this hardly matters if the introduction states one party's disputed claim as fact. i thought you were perhaps a reasonable person, possibly that you have overlooked the intro in the wholesale reverts, that this discussion may lead somewhere, but no such luck. Appleby 16:32, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

text: I am a reasonable person. I have been involved in my share of edit wars and I can tell you that not one has been resolved while a revert war was happening. Every one was resolved after the article was left at status quo and the dispute talked about on the talk page. And I can tell you that this edit war will end the same way. So, until you adhere to Wikipolicy and agree to end the revert war, nothing will get resolved. So, to me, it seems like you are the unreasonable person. I have ideas how matters can be resolved, but until the revert war ends, nothing will get put forward by me. Revert wars are not the way to resolve the dispute. Masterhatch 4 September 2005
which is why i have explained my edits here  Appleby 17:28, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

text: But until you end the edit war, no compromises can or will be reached! End the war and let's discuss this like reasonable people. I have ideas for a compromise, but as long as there is a revert war, nothing will change. I will repeat, every edit war I have been involved in has only been resolved after the revert war stops and the page is left at status quo. Masterhatch 5 September 2005
what do YOU hope to accomplish by a revert war? takes 2 to tango. i'm actually convinced you're smart & reasonable enough to know, something as fundamental as stating a legitimately disputed claim as fact is not something to be negotiated, if wikipedia is to have any credibility. Appleby 06:00, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

text: You obviously don't understand the meaning of de facto. I will quote again: "being such in effect though not formally recognized". Sea of Japan was the de facto because it was the most common name, not because a body called it the de facto. It was without a doubt the most common name before IHO standarised it. English is the de facto language of the US, but it is not the official language of the US. the US has no offical language. English is the de facto of the US because it is the most common language spoken. Sea of Japan was the de facto, not because the de facto was determined by a governing body, but because it was the most common name. That sentence you keep removing does not state it was the de facto name in the 1800s or the 1700s or the 1600s or any given time period EXCEPT to say that it was the de facto BEFORE the IHO standarised it. That is a fact jack. So, prior to 1919 (whether it was 2 years or 200 years prior), Sea of Japan was the de facto. That sentence states that in a NPOV way. The whole dispute is not whether it was the de facto before 1919. The Koreans are claiming that before the Japanese colonised Korea, East Sea was the de facto. The Koreans are not disputing that after the Japanese colonisation of Korea, Sea of Japan was the most common. Koreans will admit that after Japan took over Korea, Sea of Japan was the most common name for that body of water. I will repeat again: Koreans claim that East Sea was the de facto before the Japanese conquest. Do I have to repeat myself again? Because I really don't want to. But I will just one more time so that you truly understand: Prior to 1919 Sea of Japan was the de facto (see definition of de facto) name for that body of water. Koreans are not disputing that. I will repeat. Koreans are not disputing that. The Koreans are disputing the de facto name prior to the Japanese conquest. That is what this whole thing is about. That sentence simply states that when the IHO standardised the name "Sea of Japan", it was already the de facto name. What part of that don't you understand? Masterhatch 5 September 2005
the part where you cited sources Appleby 19:06, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

text: ???The Koreans aren't disputing that Sea of Japan was the most common name after Korea was colonised! And by definition of de facto (again, see definition), Sea of Japan was the de facto name prior to 1919. No one body declared it de facto before 1919 as that is not necessary for something to become de facto. Simply by being the most common name (which the Koreans admit to), Sea of Japan was de facto (prior to 1919). The Koreans claim that it was before the rise of Japanese imperialism that East Sea was most common (aka de facto) and after the rise of Japanese imperialism Sea of Japan became the most common (aka de facto). In the opening paragraph of this dispute, it mentions why the Koreans are disputing. I will copy paste just incase you missed it: "The South Korean government challenge this name, contending it is a symbol of Japan's imperialistic past, and want the name East Sea to be used". So, after the start of Japanese imperialism (late 1800s), according to the Koreans, Sea of Japan became the most common. Why do you think the "dispute" is about maps prior to 1900? or prior to Japanese imperialism? or why do you think Koreans are looking for the oldest maps? Koreans know that maps from the late 1800s and onwards mostly show (see difinition of de facto) Sea of Japan. If East Sea was more common in the first 20 years of the 1900s, then Koreans would be looking at maps from the early 1900s, but they aren't! they are looking at maps before the 1900s. Koreans believe that maps earlier than the 1900s will prove their case, hence the hunt for older maps. If you can't understand that, then you have lost all reason. Calling Sea of Japan "De facto" does not mean it was the valid or right name or even the international chosen name. It simply means it was the most common name. And it was, prior to 1919, the most common name, therefore "de facto". The dispute is not about that! you should know that. The dispute is about when sea of japan became the de facto name. Koreans claim it was in the late 1800s when the rise of Japanese imperialism started and the Japanese claim it was always the de facto name. That is what the dispute is all about. If you can't comprehend the meaning of "de facto", then I will change this sentence: "the name had already been the de facto international standard" to "the name had already been the most common international standard." To me, it makes no difference as the meaning is the same. Oh, and just in case you missed it, the opening paragraph of the history of the dispute clearly states that it is a dispute about maps prior to the 19th century, not prior to 1919. Masterhatch 5 September 2005
"de facto" is not the same as "majority."  & yes, please provide citation to who determined x was the de facto name. of course there is a distinction between determining what the name should be, & stating what the most commonly used name is. i understand that, for example, the u.n. has done the latter, not former.  did a reputable publication, not necessarily a standards-setting body, find that "sea of japan" was the de facto name as of 1919? i missed the part where korea admitted "sea of japan" was the de facto name as of 1919, can you provide a cite? Appleby 01:30, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wanna talk Wiki policies? 

message: Firstly, I want to make sure you understand the meaning of de facto . De facto does not have to be officially recognised by a governing body, although it can be (as it was in 1919 by the IHO). De facto, simplified, means used by the vast majority to the point were it appears, or even is, standard (even without official recognition). Not all parties involved have to recognise it as de facto, but when there are enough parties using it, it becomes de facto by default. De facto: used by the majority.
Secondly, these are the two wordings you have problems with:
*Sea of Japan which has been the international de facto standard since the 19th century
*At a 1919 meeting of the International Hydrographic Bureau (IHB) to officially determine internationally acceptable names of bodies of water, Japanese delegates submitted the name Sea of Japan as the official name of the sea. At the time, the name had already been the de facto international standard.
Now, I want to clarify a few things about the use of de facto in these sentences:
#De facto does not imply that it has always been Sea of Japan.
#De facto does not mean that Sea of Japan was the only name used.
#De facto does not imply that no other name was more common. It simply states that since the 19th century, Sea of Japan was the most common.
#De facto does not imply that Korea agreed to name the body of water Sea of Japan.
#De facto does mean that prior to 1919, Sea of Japan was the most commonly used name for that body of water (whether it be 3 years or 300 years before). Korea does not dispute that since the start of the Japanese imperialism, Sea of Japan became, by far, the most commonly used name. That is a fact and Korea knows it and isn’t disputing it.
#In the first sentence, it simply states that Sea of Japan has been the international de facto since the 19th century (coincidently, that is the same time as the rise of Japanese imperialism).
Now, as I have said, de facto doesn’t necessarily mean that an official government body determined de facto or not. It simply means that it was the most common name used by the majority. You wanted me to cite sources to show that Sea of Japan was the de facto (see definition) name before 1919. That was easy. I went to VANK’s  very own website and pulled these five quotes:
#However, already by the early 20th century, there were some textbooks which made reference to the "Sea of Japan." Every textbook published after 1910 refers to the East Sea as the "Sea of Japan."
#However, the Russia-Japan Treaty of 1905 was the first documented use of the term "Sea of Japan" at a government level.
#However, the Russians called the East Sea the "Sea of Korea" in their last officially published map of 1844. Thereafter, it appears that the Russian Navy and numerous maps followed the European style in making geographical references.
#From this, we can assume that changes were being made at about this time, because the term "East Sea" was not found in any of the Japanese maps published after 1871. Also, at about this time, references to the "Sea of Japan" began appearing in Chinese maps as well.
#However, since the East Sea was referred to as the "Sea of Japan" in La Perouse's map of 1797, maps produced thereafter in Europe began to use the term "Sea of Japan" with greater frequency. However, both "Sea of Korea" and "Sea of Japan" co-existed until the first half of the 19th century. It is difficult to find out how "Sea of Japan" replaced "Sea of Korea" in the later half of the 19th century because a review of all existing ancient maps has not been completed. However, it is believed that such a replacement was a reflection of the easier availability of information about Japan than Korea as Japan's military power had expanded and the recognition of Japan had increased in the international community.
Now, I could spend all day and have a hay-day picking apart the propaganda, mis-information, contradictions found on the VANK site, but I went there because I felt that it was a good place to show you that Koreans, even the most stubborn East Sea supporters, know it is a fact that Sea of Japan was the most commonly used name for that body of water prior to 1919. So, looking at the five quotes, they tell the story:
#Every textbook published after 1910 uses Sea of Japan. That is nine years before 1919. Does that sound like de facto?
#1905 the term Sea of Japan is being used at a government level. Does that sound like de facto?
#After 1844, the Russians followed the rest of Europe and started calling it Sea of Japan. So, if all of Europe is calling it Sea of Japan before 1844 and then Russia starts calling it Sea of japan in 1844, doesn’t that sound a lot like de facto?
#According to VANK, the Japanese and Chinese stopped using “East Sea” in 1871. Let me see, yup, that is before 1919.
#Point number 5 says it all. According to VANK, Europeans started using Sea of japan in 1797 in conjunction with Sea of Korea, but by the later half of the 1800s, Sea of Japan replaced Sea of Korea. Well, if that isn’t de facto, I don’t know what is.
I have proved my point that Sea of Japan was the de facto name before 1919 and I did it using Korea’s own biggest East Sea propaganda website. I didn’t even have to look at a Japanese site. But if you really want, I can do that too. But I don’t think that that is necessary. If you still don’t believe that Sea of Japan was the de facto name prior to 1919, then the onus is on you to find otherwise. I have done my homework. It is your turn now. masterhatch 6 September 2005
thanks for the cite. you know & i know we both know what "de facto" means, that's not at issue, i was asking whether south korea or a citable reference work had stated so. i think we both agree that vank is not credible source for historical facts, but since it supports korea's position, i won't quibble, i'm convinced sea of japan was widely used as of 1919. but i think "standard" is inappropriate, eg, there's html standards, & then there's ie's de facto domination--microsoft's implementation is not a "standard" in this sense. Appleby 16:42, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but that date isn't the date of the actual study. Also, there is still no verifiable map list. Now, if you will notice, there is a mailing address, phone number, and fax number at the bottom of the page. If you are so inclined, you can contact them and request that they add the information to their website. If they were to update their website in such a way, I wouldn't ahve a problem with including it. All the other map related sources include a map list and date. So, if you really want your source put in, contact the people who did the study. Masterhatch 02:10, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sea of Japan de facto before 1919 

message: While I agree that this is a true statement, It is the only one of its kind in this article. The rest of the studies merely state information about the study and don't attempt to refute other studies. I would rather have this sentences removed and leave it up to the reader to make that conclusion. Masterhatch 02:23, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The results shows that the Korean study is totally inadequate 

message: once again, no third party describes the situation as "de facto" nor does korea, so let's use a less conclusive word that still conveys japan's point.this paragraph is not about japan's pov. Appleby 04:41, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: by definition of de facto, it was the de facto before 1919. I have looked and I was unable to find any maps that used East Sea from 1905 to 1919 (actually I couldn't find any for the 1900s). That is at least 14 years with no reputable publishers (that I have found) that use East Sea or any name other than Sea of Japan. That sure sounds like de facto before 1919. Anyways, as per the definition of de facto, a government or other official body doesn't  have to state "de facto" in order for something to be de facto. The sheer lack of East Sea maps 20 years or so prior to 1919 make a convincing argument for de facto. One more thing, "widely used" is misleading becauase it was more than "just" widely used. It was almost exclusively used, which means de facto. Masterhatch 15:42, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: of course i'm not saying a gov't or official finding is required, i'm saying someone other than the arguing party should be citable for saying something as definitive as "de facto" (which, as you point out, is roughly synonymous with "actual"). while i personally agree that "sea of japan" must've been pretty dominant by 1919, you & i are not in a position to do independent research to conclude what was de facto at the time. obviously, korea did not focus on maps made closer to 1919, because at least a majority used "sea of japan" by that time. just from what we know, it is possible (though very unlikely) that something like 40% of the maps most widely used as of 1919 used east sea/south korea. it is a still somewhat unlikely, but plausible that it may be 30% or 25%. the point is, we don't know have the sources to conclude "de facto." again, i agree it's apparently a dominant majority, but "de facto" doesn't mean majority or even most, it means "actual"--too conclusory without a non-party citation. Appleby 06:41, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed. Masterhatch 16:59, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: i think we're close Appleby 05:01, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please find me one use of East Sea on an international map between 1905 and 1919. I can't seem to find one. Maybe I am looking in all the wrong places. Masterhatch 18:15, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Of course I haven't looked in all those places. But let's leave something up to common sense, shall we? Honestly, from 1905 to 1919, who would have made an East Sea map? Well, not Japan as they made their last one in 1870. Dito For China. Russia also stopped making East Sea maps shortly before 1870. by the end of the 1800s, Europeans and Americans were also only using Sea of Japan. Since, at the time of the 1800s, the European community was the international community (they owned almost the entire planet), the international community wasn't using East Sea either. So, by the time 1905 rolled around, there weren't any notable countries or publishers still using East Sea. In fact, I don't know of any that were using East Sea, notable or not. As for Korea, since the Japanese took control of Korea in 1905, Korea wouldn't have been making any international maps either. Japan would have been making the maps for Korea. So, since no one was making East Sea maps during that time period, it pretty much became de facto (as per the definition of de fact). One can only surmise that the reason why all the old map studies are done prior to the rise of Japanese imperialism is because after the rise of Japanese imperialism, East Sea just doesn't exist. You talk about compromise, I felt it was a huge compromise to remove the word "de facto". I did it because I wanted to end this silly edit war, not because I thought it was a POV edit. It is a factual (based on the definition of de facto) statement, not a POV one.Masterhatch 17:08, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Please don't move the discussions around. It makes it annoying trying to figure out what the changes are. I am too busy with other stuff to spend half an hour trying to figure out what is different. Since you and I are the only ones discussing this, we can leave the dicussions where they are. Very shortly (within the next day or two) I will archive this page and leave only the current issues (hopefully when I archive this page, there won't be any current issues as everything will have been solved) on the page. As for this issue, I think we can close the books on it.Masterhatch 16:26, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: at the time defacto/widely used

message: You keep talking about "balanced" but you can't see for looking. This article isn't about making sure each side has an equal weight. It is about being factual, fair, NPOV, and informative. Look, have you noticed that for the media responses, there is not Japanese counter argument? I could easily thow something like "while a select few publishers are adding East Sea after Sea of Japan, the vast majority of text books, publications, nautical maps, governments, educational institutes, and magazines still use only Sea of Japan." But that is not necessary as that is more information than the reader of this article really needs to know. Remember, it isn't a pissing match. You are so wrapped up in making this article NPOV in Korea's point of view that you forgot that sometimes the facts can't help but point one way. In this case, the facts strongly point in Japan's favour, not in Korea's. I mean, I could add a bunch of stuff like 
*"East Sea has no historical significance in the international community and is a relatively recent name. Names such as Sea of Japan and Sea of Korea and Oriental Sea far exceeded East Sea to the point that East Sea is almost non exsitant. Korea tries to combine all the names "other than" Sea of Japan and group them all as East Sea to try and verify that East Sea has a historicial significance. Korea tries to equate names such as Oriental and Eastern Sea as meaning East Sea, when in reality, these two names have nothing to do with East Sea in nomenclature. Korea tries to pass East Sea off as a neutral name, but of course, this name isn't neutral as it is Korea's name, named by Koreans, for that body of water. Sea of Japan is a more neutral name in the sense that it wasn't named that by the Japanese (as evidence of Japanese maps that use Sea of Josen), it was named by Westerners from Europe. If Korea was really pushing for a neutral name, it would opt one of the other names used in history that actually have historical precedence, such as Oriental Sea."
Of course that paragraph isn't in the article. With a little clean-up, it could be, though. It is all factual. But I have no intent on adding anything like that because that reads more like a pissing match than an outline of the dispute.
Notice in the opening paragraph of this dispute it mentions that Korean publications use East Sea exclusively. Well, you don't see it "balanced" with a comment like "Japan's media uses Sea of Japan..."
Also, take notice that the article mentions VANK, but no japanese equivellants.
:please also notice it includes japanese coast guard's uncorroborated argument in the history section, that the list of reputable publishers that changed positions after evaluating the dispute is truncated (if you can find any publisher that rejected korea's claim upon evaluation, not just deferred to the iho or most widely used name or just didn't evaluate, please feel free to add), that japan is almost always mentioned first when japan & korea are mentioned together, that it says iho "adopted" even though they apparently "used" without deliberation, that the article doesn't mention the iho was a group of 18-21 countries when it "standardized" international names, that vank is mentioned to undermine the credibility of korea's side, that wikipedia in fact uses "sea of japan" alone even though there is a legitimate dispute about the name, that you're trying to put the disputed tallies, except korea's latest, into the objective history section, and that you're trying to take out from history actions of indepentent authorities that essentially established the existence of this dispute. i could also, of course, add a lot more "facts" that counter your "facts," that will really turn this into a pissing match. but no, i'm just trying to resolve two of these through discussions with you. Appleby 18:49, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: maybe because it's already been added? is it possible that one side objects more when the article is tilted to the other side? is it surprising that such existing bias brings out the worst in people?Appleby 18:49, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, both sides could add countless "petty" arguments that would turn this dispute article into a war article. I don't want that and I know you don't want that.Masterhatch 02:52, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

text: i'll try to keep ad hominem accusations out of this if you will. i do think we can discuss the article reasonably.Appleby 18:49, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, again i apologise for my wording. 소주 has a strange affect on the mind. Anyways, I know drinking is not a defence, but had I been sober, it would have been worded differently (and my spelling would have been a little bit better too).Masterhatch 02:52, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wanna Talk Balanced?

message: If no one objects, I will archive the older discussions on this page within the next day or two and only leave the issues currently at hand. Masterhatch 05:38, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I will be archiving this page shortly. This will be the first time for me archiving a page, so bear with me as I read "archiving for dummies" and do it step by step. Masterhatch 02:56, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  This page needs to be archived