Talk:History of Chechnya

message: I am sorry to find your knowledge of the Napoleonic 'second Polish war' quite poor, so please read ahead.  Napoleon really called the patriotic war as a second Polish war. Just compare how Putin called the second Chechen war as an 'antiterrotist operation' in the beginning.
 
See  especially The Capture of Moscow and Napoleon's invasion of Russia in 1812
The invaders faced scorched soil ahead, and partisans in the rear. Especially, pay attention to the scorched soil tactics that Kutuzov deployed and what it must have ment to the ordinary Russian civilians.
In this regards, it's tempting to compare Kutuzov with Maskhadov further. The former was contemporary to the greatest military genius of all times, Suvorov, and therefore his quick-to-learn pupil in Rimmik (unfortunately Suvorov himself died already in 1800 beeing in shadow), and Maskhadov is a product of the Suvorovian traditions of the military adademies who hasn't yet lost a principal battle either given the premises he has had. From the Russian side the battle of Grozny was a plain militarily unprofessional demolition, say, a war crime, from where the Chechen main force withdrew relatively successfully in the way Kutuzov did in Moscow. In his way, the later has appeared even more skilled than Suvorov. He could establish a true profesionally fighting army out of the scattered Caucasian hotheads that nobody could govern up to this extent before. I doubt that not even Suvorov could have done this.
 In Kutuzov's words 'the war had just begun'.
# You started a new section again insted of answering the previous section
# You accused me of ignorance while yourself failed to note that wordiq.com is just a copy of corresponding article in this wiki.
# I will not discuss your comparison of 1812 war with the second Chechen war further unless you prove every item in the list:
## Napoleon stayed in Moscow for 5 year, instead of 5 weeks.
## Kutuzov purposefully attacked Russian civilians in September 1812 in order to get political settlement with Napoleon
## Kutuzov purposefully attacked French civilians in September 1812 in order to get political settlement with Napoleon
## Napoleon successfully enthroned a new Russian tsar
## Russia was a subdivision of France before the invasion
: --Gene s 06:33, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Napoleonic parallels and comparisons

message: The most easily you could get info from the "other side of war" while surfing the LIST. If you put there "A review of the 265th week of war", "A review of the 264th...", "A review of the 263th ..." etc. in the search archive box.
If you're patient enough you may easily draw weekly statistics of losses in troops, vehicles, planes, helicopters etc. if you just mind. If you then compared these with the Russian official and unofficial periodic announcement of military losses you'll realise an approximate truth of war.
And to see some traces of the invaders' abuses on the civilians see photos  here.--BIR 14:26, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You failed to provide a list of military operations conducted by separatists in 2003 and 2004. You failed to provide supporting evidence in the form of URLs of reputable sources of infrmation. Thus there is nothing to discuss further. --Gene s 06:25, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The military operations of the Chechen resistance since 2002

message: : Do you actually read what you post? Are you completely irresponsible? Or you want to promote your view by any means necessary?
*Prague Watchdog Article from December 2000. NOT 2003 or 2004
*Johnson's article Russian casualties in Chechnya in 2002. In 2002. NOT 2003 or 2004
*Jamestown's article Russian casualties in Chechnya in 2002. Do you actually read what you post?
* April 2002. Do you understand difference between different years? 
* February 2001. 
* Use of land mines in Chechnya in 1996-2002
* Use of land mines by separatists in Chechnya, killing 13 y.o.
: You still have not posted A SINGLE useful link. You post nothing but propaganda and irrelevant links. --Gene s 13:34, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: True numbers vs. officially forgered ones

message: I thought that the Chechens never converted to Christianity en masse. It is true that archaeologists have found evidence that Christianity had been practised in present-day Chechnya not long after the faith's evolution. However, the Chechens remained largely animist until the introduction of Islam in the 16th century.
: Some Taips converted in Christianity untill the Tamerlane invasion. Moslty Akkhi Teip lived in Galainchoj. During invasion they all converted to old Pagan religion. Nakh  10:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Religion in Chechnya

message: This article needs at least a defining sentence on what Chechnya is, or was, before discussing its history.  Personally, I've never even heard of the place. Emmett5 23:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What is Chechnya?

message: The question is about this edit. The book given as a source for the new number (the old was from the Islamnews article) only writes about the number of those who arrived to their destinations. Where did you get the initial number of them (478 479)? Alæxis¿question? 10:44, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, now I see. I've modified slightly the paragraph to make it fully consistent with Dunlop's book. Alæxis¿question? 20:12, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Number of dead during the transfer to Central Asia

message: I don’t want to sound hostile, but I’ve checked the references on the “Recognition of Genocide” section and I find them unsatisfactory to say the least. First of all reference 9 and 11 are the same Russian article. Which is a non-scientific source but just a description of the author’s experiences. Reference 10 only once mentions the word Genocide in connection with Soviet atrocities on Caucasian population. In particular Stalin’s deportations. But it’s not about Chechen people in particular but about many Caucasian populations. And it’s not a proper source and does not contain further references to the original proper source. Also none of these sources report anything about IV Hague Convention or UN General Assembly. And both of these wiki entries do not even contain the word deportation.  I urge someone to find proper sources or rephrase the section. User:Zangiev  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.97.241.30 (talk) 18:04, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: About Recognition of genocide

message: Re this edit, while it's quite possible that Yermolov said so, the source used to prove it is of dubious quality. Aminat Saieva was a representative of Ichkeria in Vilnius, and is not a historian, it seems. Also, as an Ichkerian official, she clearly has a bias. Could you please replace this source with another one. Alæxis¿question? 20:06, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  sources 

message: This article has very severe neutrality and synthesis problems. It is written almost entirely from the Chechen secessionist POV. I may write a more thorough analysis later, but here are just a couple of examples:
*"The Russian government, frustrated and humiliated with their failure to remove Dudayev, decided to crush Ichkeria once and for all, to wipe it off the map" - is it even possible to find a more biased wording than this?
::First, that sentence will definitely be edited (in fact I have done so before posting this on the talk page. 
*The article gives the impression that post-1991, everyone in Chechnya supported secession. This was not the case. Even the election of Dudaev itself was deeply flawed. For example, many anti-secessionist regions were not allowed to vote and anti-secessionist voters were harassed by the authorities.
::To be correct, it was much more important that the pro-Russian side (mainly made up of Russians, with a small percentage of representatives of other nationalities) of politics in Checheno-Ingushetia advocated boycotting the referendum, which they did. That there was really no opposition in Chechen politics (i.e. excluding the Russians of Chechnya and a small minority of Chechens, Ingush, etc loyal to Moscow) to independence was the case, and was reported so at the time. There are perhaps legitimate criticisms of the way the election was done: if they are cited and by an international observer (hopefully made at the time of the election), you are more than welcome to add them. --Yalens (talk) 00:49, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Dudayev's dictatorial tendencies- characteristic the leaders of all the other states in the region- may be added, with the . The reason that Chechnya's internal politics during those years are not there is not because of some plot to undermine neutrality, but because of the lack of work on that period (here on Wikipedia). It is also notable that the Russian blockade has, at the time of speaking, gone unmentioned. --Yalens (talk) 00:49, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe Wood is actually British. In any case, it is often cited beside other sources. Since it is so important that he not be used, I have removed them, though it doesn't make any difference. And I also dispute "Chechnya: From Past to Future" as a neutral source considering that the overwhelming majority (with only a couple of exceptions if any) are either Russians or worse, have worked for the Russian government (presently or in the past). Places where only Wood is cited, for example Khasbulatov's opposition to the referendum that he was involved in organizing, are there not because there is any pretension of Wood's neutrality, but because he was a journalist reporting then. Other cases where Wood is cited alone include citing the opinion itself of Kadyrov's critics, for which a non-neutral source with an anti-Kadyrov POV (like Wood) is necessary. When looking at citation, one should look at the way it is used, not just the frequency... --Yalens (talk) 00:49, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: At present, there are 7 citations of Wood out of a total of 165 citations. You can hardly call that "over-reliance", though the number can still be reduced.--Yalens (talk) 01:32, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

text: In general, anyhow, we should refrain from using sources that are from nationalities involved in the conflict- that being Chechen or Russian.--Yalens (talk) 00:49, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for making these changes to the article. Good work. I will probably work on this article myself in the next few days or weeks (I'll try to identify and fix the remaining neutrality issues and add material about the inter-war period) - is it ok for you that we keep the npov-tag at least until then? There are still a lot of issues with this article. Nanobear (talk) 19:44, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Your welcome. I, also, will get hold of Dunlop's book again (it is very good, well-sourced, etc.). And yes, its fine if we keep the NPOV tag until then. Also I wanted to add, now that this page is getting attention, that there are some sections which are just lacking, and not even from an NPOV standpoint, but just from a raw info standpoint as they don't have enough. I have been working on the tsarist rule (mainly from Dunlop and Jaimoukha for now) and on the World War I and post-world war I era (both in my userpages right now, for placement here when finished, or possibly to make into separate pages). I also hope to work on the pre-World War II Soviet era as it is the most underrepresented part of the page...--Yalens (talk) 12:28, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serious neutrality problems 

message: "...In the first half of the 17th centuy the Chechen Plain was settled by the Turlovs, feudal lords who had moved from Avaria (the Daghestan Upland). Being in the forefront of the struggle waged by the Chechens against the Kabardian and Kulmyik feudal lords, they united part of Chechen communities. In several historical documents the Turlovs are referred as the owners of the "land of the Chachan". The feudal relations of the Vainakhs however did not have a subsequent development. Thus, having made themselves free from the rule of the Kabardian and Kumyik lords, the Chechens banished their own feudal lords as well and began to live again united in free communities (societies). The Vainakhs have a saying:"When one is voted a prince (ela) the others become their slaves", which apparently dates back to that time..."
from a chechen website : http://www.eng.kavkaz-uzel.ru/articles/1894/?print=true
:You are an Avar, are you not? That's good- wikipedia needs more info on Avars and Avaria-related issues. You need to sign your posts though: just use --~~~~. 
:I have actually seen this page (the Caucasian Knot article- that's not really a Chechen website though!), I hope to incorporate it into the article soon. Yes, it is true that Avars ruled parts of Chechnya during that time- the Kabardins and Kumiks also took chunks of Chechen territory for their feudal purposes, plus there were some Chechen lords in some areas and then invasions by nomadic Nogai. The Chechens rose up and fought off all of these rulers and established what was pretty much a democratic system with representation based on teips (clans- rather than regions as in modern democracies, although teips were often regional). --Yalens (talk) 01:50, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: (you might want to brush up on your English a little, just saying). Imam Shamil is one of those historical figures that people either love or hate, and there's many different views of him. The Avars often view him as a national hero; Islamists in the Caucasus view him as a precursor to their own struggles; many Chechens often admire his temporarily successful defiance of Russia, yet many others distrusted him at the time for his percieved attempts to subjugate the Chechens to his own people; some scholars who researched Shamil saw in him a cynical politician who decieved people for his own gain (not unlike many politicians we see nowadays...); the Russians view him as another rebellious Caucasian and so on. It is true, according to reliable scholarly citation, however, that Shamil died in Kaluga, where he had written himself that he was enjoying himself (I'll give you that the Russians could have forced him to write that, but that's the citation). The best we can do is go with what reliable sources say. If you have another source that contradicts what it says on wiki, you're welcome to add it and we can discuss on the talk page of an article. --Yalens (talk) 01:50, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

text: Chechens and Avars aren't the only nations that revered the wolf (though you have to admit that the WAY that Chechens and Avars revered it was different). It's actually not that uncommon as a national animal. But you need to have citations for what you put (in general, that Avars "united Chechens against the Kumyks and Kabardians" is viewing it in a tinted spectacle-Chechens rose up against Avar lords too)... in general, I'd say the historical relations between Chechens and Avars is typical of that of neighbors. Sometimes roses, sometimes thorns, but having a lot in common nonetheless. --Yalens (talk) 01:50, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

text: Turlovs aren't avars, they are kumyks, and they were expelled after frequent attacks by the Chechen mountainers ("tavlins"). And Avar wolf is borrowed from the Turks, who ruled the Avars. ethnonym "avar" was received from the Turks. Avars always expelled from Chechnya, as well as all other foreigners. Cossacks don't know Chechen language, don't say crazy things. Shamil was delivered by Imam primarily Chechens in Vedeno region, what is it an ethnic Avar not say anything Nitzalavar (talk) 10:42, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Turlovs - Avar Lords of Chechenia 

message: From Urfinze's talkpage: 
Honestly, I'm amazed that you didn't see Siberia all over the sources (you read them right?), but hey everyone's clumsy sometimes. I'll give you one of the many quotes from one  attesting as much: 
That's from page 60 of Amjad Jaimoukha's The Chechens: A Handbook. I could give you so many more. This is actually a very basic piece of information. I hope this issue is resolved now. --Yalens (talk) 15:54, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The link you posted to Dunlop's book doesn't even include the section on the deportation... later on, he says (repeatedly) that they were sent to Siberia, but that section isn't in your link. --Yalens (talk) 16:17, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Siberia

message: I think the most accurate is to say "Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and western Siberia, as well as scattered through the rest of the Soviet Union". But mostly Kazakhstan. Right now it's only Siberia, but it's just absolutely misleading. In Siberia, precisely at Krasnoyarsk, "about 4,000 Chechens were incarcerated in forced labor concentration camps". (Russia Confronts Chechnya: Roots of a Separatist Conflict, page 69) But it was not a place of exile. --Niemti (talk) 05:20, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Siberia controversies 

message: I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
::This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
::#There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
::#It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
::#In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 15:30, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  removing POV tag with no active discussion per [[Template:POV]] 

message: as per October list added wiki links through whole doc. Some links have been a few time been done twice, as the context and time since first linked would be useful to person with less knowledge on history of regions & sovereign states than the authors or enthusiasts. Same time not over linked. Hope that is alright. --Andys'edtits 15:49, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikifiy October

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message: For her views on Chechen (and Ingush) archaeohistory. --Calthinus (talk) 23:47, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Useful Johanna Nichols paper