Talk:John C. Frémont

message: The article Mormon Battalion mentions that Fremont was hauled back east to face a court martial at one point.  This fact/allegation is not covered in any way by the John C. Fremont article.  — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] - 00:47, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Court martial

message: When searching for John C Fremont, 4 public schools named for Fremont score higher than Fremont himself for relevancy. Fremont scores only 51.1%. What?
:The lower relevancy is probably because "John C Fremont" is entered without an accented E. Like the entries for the schools, it's a 'redirect'.  The school redirects and their main articles have no accented E, which could be why their relevancy is considered higher. Adavidb 14:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Relevance

message: It appears to be unclear that Fremont had any direct involvement in the murders of Jose R. Berreyesa and his nephews, Ramon and Francisco De Haro. In Fremont’s memoirs he claims that the Delawares were responsible. In other accounts Carson took the initiative and killed the three men saying later “Oh, we don’t want any prisoners; they lie out yonder.” Still other reports state that Carson wasn’t involved at all. Therefore, it cannot be said with any certainty that Fremont ordered these killings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zafe B. Brox (talk • contribs) 14:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If verifiable, reliable sources are provided for the "other accounts" and "reports", they can be used. --Adavidb 09:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This can be fixed easily. I'm doing research in this area and I've found a few accounts. I think it's pretty obvious, from multiple accounts, that Fremont ordered Carson and a few men to kill Jose' and his nephews under the excuse that he didn't have the time/logistics to deal with prisoners. That in itself doesn't make sense since he was already holding prisoners but neither does the Fremont Peak incident.--Docstrnge (talk) 08:53, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and those accounts all have the De Haro's listed as "nephews" of Berreyesa, but they aren't. (why were they there?)--Emargie (talk) 01:04, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I finally found a pro-Fremont account that comes from "The Decline Of The Californios" by Leonard Pitt, page 200. It basically points the finger at Kit Carson and produces a list of character witnesses for Fremont which includes someone only referred to as "another Berreyesa". The only thing that nobody disputes is the fact that Berreyesa's killing was technically a war crime, the dispute is over who was responsible.--Docstrnge (talk) 20:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The two accounts given in Zoeth Skinner Eldridge's book The Beginnings of San Francisco: From the Expedition of Anza, 1774, to the City Charter of April 15, 1850 : with Biographical and Other Notes are both unflattering in their portrayal of Frémont. One account by Berreyesa's son José de los Santos Berreyesa, the former mayor of Sonoma, has the three Californios getting shot as they approached San Rafael with the intention of renting horses (they had brought their saddles with them on the boat) and the other account by attorney and surveyor Jasper O'Farrell says that Carson came back to Frémont to ask what should be done about the men. Here are both of those accounts. José de los Santos Berreyesa calls the De Haro boys "cousins" but they were not first or second cousins. Binksternet (talk) 21:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that's the first pro-Fremont account I've seen. I'd like to get some names, faces and documentation for these alleged pro-Fremont character witnesses mentioned in "Decline". There should be a way to cross-reference it if it's true, assuming one has the time, resourcefulness, etc. Everything else I've read pretty much lines up with the "Fremont is jerk" theory (His failures after the Bear Flag Revolt are well noted). What's strange is that it's coming from a pro-Californio book but it's merely documenting what was said/done. Jasper O'Farrell is another interesting story in this incident. He's sometimes blamed for Fremont's post revolt failures because of his testimony over the Berreyesa killing but that's another story. I read an account (and I can't seem to find it now) that claimed O'Farrell squatted on the Berreyesa's northern property (with cattle) while they were being held in jail in Sonoma and eventually was granted a lot of it by the pro-American anti Californio&Indian courts. I still have a ton of downloaded books to read (and re-read) so I'll get the reference for you as soon as I can relocate it. Interesting stuff. I'm actually trying to concentrate on Almaden-ish research but the Aboriginal/Spanish/Mexican/American periods all require a historical perspective outside that box. I'm researching a novel. Kind of a "look how things have changed while nothing's really changed" if you follow me.--Docstrnge (talk) 11:43, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

text: Maybe this should be discussed again. It is not quite clear why Frémont would have resorted to such drastic measures especially if these men were unarmed. It also may suggest some racism was involved in the shootings. Cmguy777 (talk) 06:00, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  The killings of Berreyesa and the De Haros 

message: Fremont's role in the exploration of the Oregon Territory needs to be expanded upon, as it is barely mentioned. Katr67 22:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Oregon Territory

message: Why is this article listed in the category The History of Pederasty? - 169.237.215.179 00:43, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I expect it's due to the content of the last paragraph in the Civil War section. —Adavidb 14:48, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism?

message: Under the "Legacy" section, it says that Dream West "may be the best book written about the explorer."  Seems a little biased if you ask me, but I don't know if there are any other books about him.  Just thought I'd throw that in there.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.48.61.43 (talk) 08:08, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing this out. The book is now merely identified, not praised. —ADavidB 06:06, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dream West bias 

message: Note that this talk page now belongs to more than 10 WikiProjects; the WPB and WPBS banner display templates both only allow for 10 and don't display more. I'm not aware of a solution while still nesting WP banners, though thought I'd make the issue known. —ADavidB 03:11, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh... No disputing your point, but, WikiProject:Plants? Really? BusterD (talk) 03:47, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, really. Our scope includes all botanists. He even has a botanist abbreviation, indicating he's formally described at least one plant species. In fact, there are 74 records in the IPNI database of plant names. Also, the  does allow for the display of more than 10 banners. I've altered it so it will autocollapse, too. --Rkitko (talk) 12:13, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. —ADavidB 01:45, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProjectBanners 

message: In Fremont's biography, it is stated that he was born in 1913 to "Anne Beverley Whiting... who, after his birth married Louis-Rene Fremont...on May 14, 1807." The dates in this information don't make sense. If Fremont was born in 1813, how could his mother marry after his birth in 1807? 
206.78.91.34 (talk) 21:58, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch. I checked the original source on Google Books  and there were a couple of other errors in that sentence. Hope it's all fixed now. Offenbach (talk) 22:31, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: But now what about that "illegitimate" further down the paragraph ?Emargie (talk) 22:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume it means that Fremont historians discount the 1807 marriage info as inaccurate. Offenbach (talk) 22:43, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I question the reliability of the French work.  Alan Nevins in "Fremont: Pathfinder of the West", Tom Chaffin in "Pathfinder: John Charles Fremont and the Course of American Empire", and Sally Denton in "Passion and Principle: John and Jessie Fremont, The Couple Whose Power. Politics, and Love Shaped Nineteenth-Century America" all present a different scenario.  In 1810 Whiting was still married to Colonel Pryor (referenced in the French book) when Fremon was hired by Pryor to tutor his wife in French.  They initiated an affair, intending to wait until her husband died before going public.  However the Colonel found out, the couple left town on July 10, 1811, and the Colonel petitioned the legislature for a divorce which was denied on December 11, 1811.  Fremont's birth in 1813 therefore occurred while his mother was still legally married to the Colonel rather than Fremonts father. Footnotes show the authors relied on primary documents including letters and the published divorce petition. I will replace the French claims with the above unless someone thinks this merits further discussion. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 23:04, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Impressive research, North ShoremanEmargie (talk) 00:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Replace away! Better to lead with the current consensus among historians than a sketchy genealogy from a century ago. Offenbach (talk) 16:53, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genealogy 

message: Please forgive my newcomer's mistakes in protocol.
The sidebar on the right lists the years in office as the 5th territorial governor of Arizona as 2010 to 2012. I do not know the correct dates, but this does seem to be a typo.
LawrenceDavidSander (talk) 20:58, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks -- I made the change. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:19, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dates in sidebar 

message: Might be worth noting that he talent-spotted an obscure Brigadier in Tennessee called U.S. Grant. 86.181.153.97 (talk) 23:13, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Cmguy777 (talk) 05:56, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patron of U.S. Grant 

message: Several of the sources for the 1861 portion of the article (footnotes 54, 55, 61, 65-69) cite a "Smith." Unless I'm missing something, this "Smith" isn't fully cited anywhere. The article seems to make some grandiose claims on the basis of "Smith"--did Frémont really give "Ulysses S. Grant field command in charge of a combined Union offensive whose goal was to capture Memphis, Vicksburg, and New Orleans, to keep Missouri and Illinois safe from Confederate attack"? This seems grandiose, in 1861. Who is this "Smith"? Jperrylsu (talk) 02:25, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Smith, Jean Edward. Grant (2001)  see Amazon listing  Rjensen (talk) 02:36, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Other Smith 

message: The article currently uses this image, captioned "A young John Frémont". As has been indicated in discussions with someone knowledgeable about Frémont on my talk page (see User talk:AndyTheGrump#Wrong Photo on Fremont Page), there are good grounds to doubt that it actually is a photo of Frémont - and the only 'source' which we have indicating that it is him is the file title. Comparisons with other images (There are several good ones which can be found via a Google image search) show that this 'mystery man' is rather less slim in the face than Frémont, has a noticeably less pointed nose, and is simply less delicate in his features. Though there is some resemblance - it has been suggested that it might be a relative - I think that given the doubts, it is inappropriate to use the image, and will remove it from the article, until it can be more positively identified. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:44, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re. File:John Charles Frémont young.jpg 

message: The Fremonts had five children, three of whom lived to adulthood. Elizabeth Benton Fremont, who never married and lived with her mother, John C. Fremont, Jr., who became a naval officer, and Francis Preston Fremont, who became an army officer. 
See
•  NYT obit for Mrs. F -- http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=FA0D14FB345D12738DDDA00A94DA415B828CF1D3
•  Heitman's Register has an entry for Francis Preston on p. 436
14:02, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Children 

message: :* Page 45: Smith most likely was in the Soilder Creek area in what is now Tucker, Utah in 1826. Frémont is in Soldier Creek in 1844. Smith is exploring Utah before Frémont explored Utah. Brooks compares Frémonts route with Smith's potential route. Smith's description after leaving the Utes Indian encampment however is not specific. Smith was traveling between Utah Lake and Castle Valley. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: * Page 47: Smith takes the Castle Valley route in 1826 that was later to be followed by Frèmont in 1853. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

text: * Page 56: Smith names the John Quincy Adams River in 1826, the Frémont later renames the Virgin River. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

text: * Pages 133-134: Smith arrives at "Tulare Lake", named by the Spanish, in 1827, that later Frémont renames Kern Lake. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

text: * Page 138: Traveling along Poso Creek by Tulare Lake, Smith comes in contact with an are that are full of holes in the ground in 1827.  Smith states that the horses were up to their knees in earth. Frémont later in the same area states the horses were up to their knees in earth. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

text: * Page 143 In 1827 Smith camps near the Wimilchi Indian tribe. In 1844 Frémont camps near the Wimilchi Indian tribe.  Cmguy777 (talk) 03:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

text: * Page 173 In 1827 Smith discovers a lake what later Frémont would rename Walker Lake. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: yes they were often on the same paths-- but Fremont was on a lot of paths that Smith never saw--he explored a much larger area. The Smith article needs a lot of work. Rjensen (talk) 03:56, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: List of Brook's accounts of Smith and Frémont

message: thumb |310px |left |Western Explorations of Jedediah Smith 1822-1831
Smith took the Pacific Ocean coastal route to the Oregon Territory wheras Frémont traveled through the Western Cascades to get to the Oregon territory. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Map of Jedediah Smith's travels

message: Western Explorations of John C. Frémont 1838-1854
Frémonts travels are very similar to Jedediah Smiths travels. I have to admit Frémont traveled a bit more extensively then Smith, at the same time Frémont was not killed by Commanches as Smith was. I would say the Frémont retraced Smith's original travels and in essence continued to on where Smith left off concerning Exploration of the West. Both Frémont and Smith deserve to be called the Pathfinders. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Map of John C. Frémonts travels

message: With the above historical evidence presented, I am requesting that Jedediah Smith be included in the Frémont article, somewhat like Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibnez independently inventing calculus, that both Smith and Frémont independently were the first to explore and open the American west. Of course, Lewis and Clark, deserve to be mentioned for their exploration route to the Pacific Ocean. Smith actually kept in contact with Clark on his discoveries. The obvious evidence is the overlapping of Smith's and Frémont's routes to the West. They both deserve the title of Pathfinders. Morgan mentioned "folklore" developed during the Election of 1856 that nothing significant occurred prior to Frémont's explorations of the West. Brooks discussed in detail seven geographic areas where Fremont's and Smith's explorations over lapped. According to Morgan (1953), on page 7, Smith deserves recognition for the effective discovery of the South Pass, for the first American to travel overland through the South Pass to California, the first American to travel out of California through the Sierra Nevada Mountains, the first to travel the length and width of the Great Basin, and the first to reach Oregon by the Pacific Ocean. In addition Smith was familiar with the West from the Missouri River to the Pacific Ocean, and from Mexico to Canada more then any man of his times. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:29, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Smith did not discover South Pass. If you want to be tough on Fremont you also have to be tough on Smith. The main point is that you have to follow what the great majority of the historians are saying.  As for what Smith did accomplish that belongs in the Smith article. Rjensen (talk) 16:52, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: For the record, I am not against Frémont and I admire his views agaisnt slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 21:38, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested inclusion of Smith's explorations in the article

message: There is a useful online essay at http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-review&month=0307&week=b&msg=bZ4Ef7Rc7tQf7rX/vmdtDA&user=&pw= 
An excerpt: "Fremont is described as relentless and extremely focused on his view of empire.  His work as Major General in the Department of the West before the Civil War has been largely ignored and/or underrated. Chaffin asserts that, "by forcing Americans ... to reimagine the American West, [Fremont] also compelled them to reimagine America itself--to conceive of their nation, for the first time, as a sea-to-sea empire" (p. xxiv).  This is the first comprehensive biography of Fremont since Andrew Rolle's _John Charles Fremont_ (1991), a far more analytical and less sympathetic study. Chaffin is at least as sympathetic to his subject as was Allan Nevins in his lengthy work on Fremont which is subtitled _The West's Greatest Adventurer_ (1928), and certainly much more appreciative of Fremont's efforts than the treatment accorded by Rodolfo Acuna in his _Occupied America_ (1988).  A more recent study by David Roberts, _A Newer World: Kit Carson, John C. Fremont and the Claiming of the American West_ (2000), attempts to compare and contrast Fremont with Kit Carson.  Roberts calls Fremont "something of a hero." The present work locates Fremont squarely within the historiography of the American Frontier--as an explorer, an army officer, and a dedicated, but controversial, American.....[this book] situates John Charles Fremont in the proper historical setting; his appellation of "Pathfinder" is safely secured." Rjensen (talk) 01:48, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: "effectively discover" -- now you're back to popular impact. Fremont was vastly more effective than Smith in telling Americans about the passes. The South Path was discovered (going from west to east) in 1812, when Smith was a child, and reported to Jefferson. Rjensen (talk) 18:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

text: Rjensen.  Morgan (1953) stated "effectively discovered" the South pass. Have you ever asked how Frémont so handily found his way throughout the West? Jedediah Smith before he was butchered by the Commanches in 1830 had given his information on the West to George Gibbs in St. Louis, who then made a map of the West from Smith's descriptions. And you know who superimposed this map, none other then John C. Frémont. In my opinion this makes Frémont's Western Explorations directly related to Smith's Explorations. Source: Map of an Exploring Expedition to the Rocky Mountains in the Year 1842, Oregon and North California in the Years 1843-44 How can you explain away Smith's map?  Cmguy777 (talk) 22:03, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry Smith got scalped at a young age. Yes all the explorers used older maps.  Fremont was the man who was commissioned by the army to do the exploring and he prepared by far the best maps of anyone, and his publications had by far the greatest impact on both popular and expert opinion. He changed America by making the West really important--that's why they nominated him for president. Like Smith he was often not the first American to see a trail but he made it usable, known, valuable and important. That's why Henry H. Goldman (above) says the . Chaffin biography "situates John Charles Fremont in the proper historical setting; his appellation of 'Pathfinder' is safely secured." Perhaps a reading of Chaffin would help the editing. Rjensen (talk) 22:19, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

text: I think Cmguy777 is arguing with the reliable sources, most of which call Fremont a pathfinder. Rjensen (talk) 23:32, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

text: That's a good compromise -- saying that Fremont built upon and went beyond the explorations and maps of previous explorers, especially Smith. here's an idea from one scholarly article ["EXPLORATION AND EARLY MAPPING IN EASTERN NEVADA" By: Alvin R. McLane, Nevada Historical Society Quarterly (1988) 31#4 pp 282-290. Abstract: Covers 1826 to 1860 and argues that adventurers and fur traders esp Jedediah Smith and Peter Skene Ogden developed significant geographical information about eastern Nevada 1826-30. During 1840-60, even better maps of eastern Nevada became available thanks to systematic army-sponsored explorations by John C. Fremont as well as the observations of immigrants who had crossed Nevada on their trek to California. Rjensen (talk) 05:17, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

text: yes we are agreed.  there's no problem about mentioing British explorers here. :) Rjensen (talk) 09:02, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

text: I suppose one could conclude the Frémont was the greatest Pathfinder, in terms of overall exploration or milage traveled. However, others, such as Smith, Lewis and Clark, and Ogden had preceded him. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:11, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

text: Here is information on Ogden's Snake River Explorations HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE CITY OF ROCKS REGION Cmguy777 (talk) 16:55, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Smith actually travelled with Ogden in the Snake River Expedition. Ogden was different in that he traveled in an Indian fashion with women and children. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:25, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

text: *"Thomas Jefferson, who envisioned an empire of the West, sent out Lewis and Clark in 1804 to find a passage to the Pacific Coast. The Treaty of 1818, created by Secretary John Q. Adams, opened the U.S. to the Pacific Coast as British and Americans shared the Oregon Territory. British trapper Peter S. Ogden and American trapper Jedediah Smith explored much of the American West in the 1820's. Although Smith was killed by Commanche Indians in 1831, he left a geographic map that Frémont used to build up knowledge of the West in the 1840's." Cmguy777 (talk) 00:20, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: ok. needs a cite. I suggest  Rjensen (talk) 00:47, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

text: Does the Goetzman book support "Thomas Jefferson, who envisioned an empire of the West"? That's the statement that needs a citation. WCCasey (talk) 15:47, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I have not checked Goetzman but numerous historians say it: 1) "Thomas Jefferson envisioned his "empire of liberty" in continental terms."; 2) "Jefferson envisioned an expanding western empire populated by gentlemen farmers." [Rick Rodriguez - 2008]; 3) " Thomas Jefferson had long envisioned America's future as a republican empire inhabited by free and equal yeoman farmers. This idyllic agricultural image required an ever-enlarging western..." [Craig Thompson Friend - 1999]; 4) the book Thomas Jefferson: Westward the Course of Empire by Lawrence S. Kaplan - 1999]. Rjensen (talk) 04:15, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

text: I found another source: Ronda (2012) Zebulon Pike, Thomas Jefferson, and the Opening of the American West, page 64. Jefferson used the term "empire" in "glowing terms" and he meant to shove aside French, Spanish, and British claims to the West. Franklin also use the term "empire". I believe there are enough sources to state Jefferson envisions a Western Empire. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:47, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: yes but keep in mind this is merely the Fremont article.  An article on Jefferson & the West is called for  Rjensen (talk) 04:12, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

text: I agree in part, however, since Jefferson, according to the sources, desired a Western Empire and westward expansion, that this would justify Jefferson's inclusion in the article. In other words, Jefferson got the ball rolling by the Louisiana Purchase and the Lewis and Clark expedition that reached the Pacific Ocean. Frémont was at the tail end of this westward expansion phase of U.S. History. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

text: *The opening of the American West began under President Thomas Jefferson, while envisioning a Western empire, sent out Lewis and Clark to find a passage to the Pacific Ocean.Rhonda (2012), p. 64  The Treaty of 1818, created by Secretary John Q. Adams and President James Monroe, opened the U.S. Pacific Coast to fisheries and harbors, as British and Americans shared the Oregon Territory.Rodriguez (2002), p. 85 The Treaty of 1819 secured from Spain the American border along the 42nd parallel to the Pacific Ocean.Weeks (2006), p. 1 British trapper Peter S. Ogden and American trapper Jedediah Smith explored much of the American West in the 1820's.Beck (1989), 27, 28Barbour (2012), p. 5Morgan (1953), p. 7 Although Smith was killed by Commanche Indians in 1831, he left a geographic map that Frémont used to build up knowledge of the West in the 1840's.Map of an Exploring Expedition to the Rocky Mountains in the Year 1842, Oregon and North California in the Years 1843-44 (April 10, 2012), Accessed on 07-09-2013 Cmguy777 (talk) 20:30, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I would keep the stuff on explorers and drop the treaties. & also drop "Although Smith was killed by Commanche Indians in 1831," Rjensen (talk) 11:37, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

text: Yes. That makes sense. Cmguy777 (talk) 07:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

text: *The opening of the American West began under President Thomas Jefferson, while envisioning a Western empire, sent out Lewis and Clark to find a passage to the Pacific Ocean.Rhonda (2012), p. 64 British trapper Peter S. Ogden and American trapper Jedediah Smith explored much of the American West in the 1820's.Beck (1989), 27, 28Barbour (2012), p. 5Morgan (1953), p. 7 In the 1840's Frémont transposed a geographic map left by Smith to build up knowledge of the West.Map of an Exploring Expedition to the Rocky Mountains in the Year 1842, Oregon and North California in the Years 1843-44 (April 10, 2012), Accessed on 07-09-2013 Cmguy777 (talk) 07:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Good -- but what does "transpose" mean (he used it); say "map" instead of "geographic map"  Rjensen (talk) 14:16, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

text: This is somewhat of a mystery. The map was transposed by Frémont in 1844 CE. However, the map apparently was available in the 1830's by Gibbs, a geologist. The question is did Frémont use the Smith-Gibbs map from the 1830s before his 1843 expedition? The 1844 map is the Frémont-Gibbs-Smith map. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: According to William L. Fox (2000) The Void, The Grid, & The Sign: Traversing The Great Basin, (pages 89-90) Smith made a map of Ogden 1826 Expedition. Also, Albert Gallatain's 1836 map suggests that he had used notes and maps of Smith in describing the Great Basin, including the Mohave River. Gallatain had used names made by Smith. Gloria Cline, Exploring the Great Basin stated that a Smith map informed the Frémont-Preuss 1845 Expedition on the Great Basin. That is direct evidence that Frémont used Smith's previous map knowledge of the Great Basin, at least in 1845. Frémont was continuing what Smith had been doing making maps. Cline and other scholars even stated that had Smith not been massacred he would have been known as the Western mapmaker as Frémont came to be known. Cmguy777 (talk) 15:44, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historiography 

message: This is a rough draft edit and has been created per discussion. I believe this would be useful for the article. This gives a succession of knowledge passed down by each generation through the decades. Cmguy777 (talk) 00:20, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: *"Thomas Jefferson, who envisioned an empire of the West, sent out Lewis and Clark in 1804 to find a passage to the Pacific Coast. The Treaty of 1818, created by Secretary John Q. Adams, opened the U.S. to the Pacific Coast as British and Americans shared the Oregon Territory. British trapper Peter S. Ogden and American trapper Jedediah Smith explored much of the American West in the 1820's. Although Smith was killed by Commanche Indians in 1831, he left a geographic map that Frémont used to build up knowledge of the West in the 1840's." Cmguy777 (talk) 00:20, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: ok. needs a cite. I suggest  Rjensen (talk) 00:47, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

text: Does the Goetzman book support "Thomas Jefferson, who envisioned an empire of the West"? That's the statement that needs a citation. WCCasey (talk) 15:47, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I have not checked Goetzman but numerous historians say it: 1) "Thomas Jefferson envisioned his "empire of liberty" in continental terms."; 2) "Jefferson envisioned an expanding western empire populated by gentlemen farmers." [Rick Rodriguez - 2008]; 3) " Thomas Jefferson had long envisioned America's future as a republican empire inhabited by free and equal yeoman farmers. This idyllic agricultural image required an ever-enlarging western..." [Craig Thompson Friend - 1999]; 4) the book Thomas Jefferson: Westward the Course of Empire by Lawrence S. Kaplan - 1999]. Rjensen (talk) 04:15, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

text: I found another source: Ronda (2012) Zebulon Pike, Thomas Jefferson, and the Opening of the American West, page 64. Jefferson used the term "empire" in "glowing terms" and he meant to shove aside French, Spanish, and British claims to the West. Franklin also use the term "empire". I believe there are enough sources to state Jefferson envisions a Western Empire. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:47, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: yes but keep in mind this is merely the Fremont article.  An article on Jefferson & the West is called for  Rjensen (talk) 04:12, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

text: I agree in part, however, since Jefferson, according to the sources, desired a Western Empire and westward expansion, that this would justify Jefferson's inclusion in the article. In other words, Jefferson got the ball rolling by the Louisiana Purchase and the Lewis and Clark expedition that reached the Pacific Ocean. Frémont was at the tail end of this westward expansion phase of U.S. History. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

text: *The opening of the American West began under President Thomas Jefferson, while envisioning a Western empire, sent out Lewis and Clark to find a passage to the Pacific Ocean.Rhonda (2012), p. 64  The Treaty of 1818, created by Secretary John Q. Adams and President James Monroe, opened the U.S. Pacific Coast to fisheries and harbors, as British and Americans shared the Oregon Territory.Rodriguez (2002), p. 85 The Treaty of 1819 secured from Spain the American border along the 42nd parallel to the Pacific Ocean.Weeks (2006), p. 1 British trapper Peter S. Ogden and American trapper Jedediah Smith explored much of the American West in the 1820's.Beck (1989), 27, 28Barbour (2012), p. 5Morgan (1953), p. 7 Although Smith was killed by Commanche Indians in 1831, he left a geographic map that Frémont used to build up knowledge of the West in the 1840's.Map of an Exploring Expedition to the Rocky Mountains in the Year 1842, Oregon and North California in the Years 1843-44 (April 10, 2012), Accessed on 07-09-2013 Cmguy777 (talk) 20:30, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I would keep the stuff on explorers and drop the treaties. & also drop "Although Smith was killed by Commanche Indians in 1831," Rjensen (talk) 11:37, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

text: Yes. That makes sense. Cmguy777 (talk) 07:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

text: *The opening of the American West began under President Thomas Jefferson, while envisioning a Western empire, sent out Lewis and Clark to find a passage to the Pacific Ocean.Rhonda (2012), p. 64 British trapper Peter S. Ogden and American trapper Jedediah Smith explored much of the American West in the 1820's.Beck (1989), 27, 28Barbour (2012), p. 5Morgan (1953), p. 7 In the 1840's Frémont transposed a geographic map left by Smith to build up knowledge of the West.Map of an Exploring Expedition to the Rocky Mountains in the Year 1842, Oregon and North California in the Years 1843-44 (April 10, 2012), Accessed on 07-09-2013 Cmguy777 (talk) 07:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Good -- but what does "transpose" mean (he used it); say "map" instead of "geographic map"  Rjensen (talk) 14:16, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

text: This is somewhat of a mystery. The map was transposed by Frémont in 1844 CE. However, the map apparently was available in the 1830's by Gibbs, a geologist. The question is did Frémont use the Smith-Gibbs map from the 1830s before his 1843 expedition? The 1844 map is the Frémont-Gibbs-Smith map. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: According to William L. Fox (2000) The Void, The Grid, & The Sign: Traversing The Great Basin, (pages 89-90) Smith made a map of Ogden 1826 Expedition. Also, Albert Gallatain's 1836 map suggests that he had used notes and maps of Smith in describing the Great Basin, including the Mohave River. Gallatain had used names made by Smith. Gloria Cline, Exploring the Great Basin stated that a Smith map informed the Frémont-Preuss 1845 Expedition on the Great Basin. That is direct evidence that Frémont used Smith's previous map knowledge of the Great Basin, at least in 1845. Frémont was continuing what Smith had been doing making maps. Cline and other scholars even stated that had Smith not been massacred he would have been known as the Western mapmaker as Frémont came to be known. Cmguy777 (talk) 15:44, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed edit

message: I found a good Dictionary of American Biography (1931) source for Frémont, edited by Allen Johnson and Dumas Malone. I think this article can fill in some gaps, particularly Frémont's early childhood and the California Gold Rush. Frémont, John Charles Cmguy777 (talk) 23:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I added more on Frémonts childhood and Mariposa gold farm. I was unaware how wealthy Frémont was. For the most part, he seemed to be at the right place at the right time. Cmguy777 (talk) 23:44, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dictionary of American Biography source 

message: I believe the section on the Civil War needs expansion. The situation in Missouri was a bit confusing and possibly needs better explanation in the article. More information is needed on Frémont's supply train corruption charges or profiteering. The Blair family could be mentioned in the section. During the early part of the Civil War, President Lincoln tended to concetrate on the Eastern War front rather then the Western War front. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:48, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Civil War section expansion 

message: The page List of United States Senators from California says that John was a democrat, while this page calls him a republican. 98.127.156.152 (talk) 00:22, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: He was a Democrat as a California senator from 1850 to 1851, later becoming a Republican. —ADavidB 11:41, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah alright, thanks.  I'm not familiar with talk page etiquette, should I delete this now that it's been "resolved"? 98.127.156.152 (talk) 02:10, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: No, there's no need to delete past discussions on an article's talk page.  Such content is generally archived when a page becomes too large. —ADavidB 03:53, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Democrat or Republican?

message: If I knew enough to fix the problem, I would, but the brief mention of Fremont's 1864 candidacy just drops the ball. What happened? Did the Republican rift remain? Unschool 01:11, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a link for further information. —ADavidB 18:29, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  1864 Election 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This information has been removed to its own article: John C. Frémont botanical nomenclature eponyms. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:17, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plants 

message: "In June 1846, at San Rafael mission, John Frémont sent three men, one of whom was Kit Carson, to confront three unarmed men debarking from a boat at Point San Pedro. Kit Carson asked John Frémont whether they should be taken prisoner. Frémont replied, "I have got no room for prisoners." They advanced on the three and deliberately shot and killed them. One of them was an old and respected Californian, Don José de los Reyes Berreyesa, whose son, the Alcalde of Sonoma, had been recently imprisoned by Frémont. The two others were twin brothers and sons of Don Francisco de Haro of Yerba Buena, who had served two terms as the first and third Alcalde of Yerba Buena (later renamed San Francisco). Berreyesa was coming to Sonoma, hoping to free his son José, whom Frémont held hostage. These murders were observed by Jasper O'Farrell, a famous architect and designer of San Francisco, who wrote a letter detailing it to the Los Angeles Star, published on September 27, 1856. This eyewitness account, together with others, were widely published during the presidential election of 1856. John Frémont was running as the first anti-slavery newly organized Republican Party nominee versus Democrat James Buchanan, who was the previous U.S. Secretary of State and Millard Fillmore, former 13th President and nominee of the last gasp of the Whig Party. It is widely speculated that this incident, together with other military blunders, sank Frémont's political aspirations."
:I am moving this section to the talk page. I plan on using one source to cover the same incident. Cmguy777 (talk) 21:22, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Berreyesa and twin brothers slayings 

message: Although Lincoln gave Frémont a free hand to run the war, he did not authorize Frémont to free slaves. Had Frémont given Grant more aggressive orders i.e. don't attack, but make demonstrations, he might have been able to keep his job. Frémont had the only Union Victory in 1861 in the West, but by then it was already determined by Lincoln he had to go. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:24, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lincoln and Frémont 

message: The following has been moved from the article. Cmguy777 (talk) 06:21, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: In the Hall Carbine Affair, Fremont was accused of overpaying for badly needed but arguably obsolescent rifles. Frémont replaced William S. Harney, who had negotiated the Harney-Price Truce, which permitted Missouri to remain neutral in the conflict as long as it did not send men or supplies to either side. Cmguy777 (talk) 06:20, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hall Carbine Affair 

message: To anyone interested, below is a three volume set of books of Fremont's expeditions, in PDF format, available for download :
*
*
*  -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:47, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Fremont primary sources

message: I am requesting an administrator put John C. Frémont article on semi-protection status due to recent persistent vandalism. Thanks Cmguy777 (talk) 15:51, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protection request 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: POV tag added to the sub-section "Court-martial and resignation", mainly for two reasons: 1) the negative description of Kearny--other sources are more neutral; and 2) the main source cited is Fremont's own memoirs. Primary sources cannot be used as references. WCCasey (talk) 19:05, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The tag does not belong. 1) the section does NOT depend on a primary source (ie Fremont's writings)--instead it depends on the introduction by scholars Mary Lee Spence & Donald Jackson. 2) if there are alternative interpretations besides Nevins, Spence & Jackson please provide them. Rjensen (talk) 09:35, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't read the Spence/Jackson book, but find it hard to believe that the editors' introduction to a collection of Fremont writings would attempt to evaluate any source other than that particular selection of Fremont's subjective writings. In any case, the judgment of Kearny's character is certainly subjective POV. I can understand why Fremont formed a negative opinion of Kearny, but that doesn't make it verifiably so. There are very few cases where it's ok to include a character judgment in a WP article. If the negative opinion of Kearny is to remain in the article, then it needs to be demonstrated that all reputable sources agree. Until/unless that happens, neutrality requires removal of the negative Kearny portrayal. WCCasey (talk) 20:56, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: the  POV tag only applies to Wiki editors -- and explicitly does not apply to reliable sources. see WP:BIASED which states reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject.  Spence and Jackson are leading experts on Fremont, his life and times, with numerous books on Fremont.  the reviews of their work are excellent. (for example The American Historical Review Vol. 61 Issue 3, p780-781 says of Spence, "Her editing of Fremont's papers "is beautifully done" and "her overall judgment is incontrovertible".  The book review in ISIS (Vol. 66, No. 2 p 287) states that the comments and notes of the editors [Spence & Jackson] "are objective and lack any element of special pleading."  In terms of evaluations, Wikipedia reports the evaluations made by leading experts.  If there are contrary evaluations of Kearny from reliable sources, the rule is they should be added to the article. (the rule is WP:SUBJECTIVE = Neutral point of view should be achieved by balancing the bias in sources based on the weight of the opinion in reliable sources and not by excluding sources that do not conform to the editor's point of view.   Note that the ISIS review explicitly states there is no bias by Spence and Jackson.  Rjensen (talk) 21:46, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV tagged 

message: A number of sources cited in References lack complete listings in Notes or Sources or Further Reading or anywhere else - we need author first name, title, place, date of publication.
For instance, RichardSON, 2007 (notes 11,12,13,39) - is this a typo and meant to refer to the Leonard Richards 2007 book (notes 9 & 10)?
Rhonda 2012 (note 16)
Beck 1989 (note 17)
Barbour 2012 (note 18)
Morgan 1953 (note 19)
Harlow (note 56)
Patricia Richmond, Trail to Disaster (note 73): no publication place or year.
Also in note 73, the publication details for Roberts' Newer World differ from those given under "Further Reading"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.147.14.174 (talk) 19:21, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mystery sources 

message: The intro says, "During the 1840s, he led five expeditions into the Western United States".  Then it says, "Frémont led a private fourth expedition ... in the winter of 1849."  Then it says, "Frémont's fifth and final privately funded expedition, between 1853 and 1854".  I need not point out the inconsistency.
In other ways the introduction is rather muddled about chronology.  It needs better writing.  An example:  "In June 1846, Frémont's and his army expedition's return to California spurred the formation of the California Battalion, and his military advice led to the capture of Sonoma and the formation of the Bear Flag Republic."  This is out of chronology and it seems to contradict the earlier statement that he took over Sonoma from the California Republic (same as "Bear Flag Republic"; this should also be fixed)  Zaslav (talk) 07:18, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistencies 

message: I just googled ' "John C. Fremont" "California Genocide" ', and the first article to appear was Wikipedia. The second source to appear was a blurb from <https://academicinfluence.com/people/john-c-fremont>, which cites the Wikipedia article. The third source is a speculative article from Damon Akins on Brendan C. Lindsay's book, "Murder State: California's Native American Genocide. 1846-1873", but it does not accuse Fremont of participating in or advocating the California Genocide. <https://networks.h-net.org/node/3180/discussions/95727/akins-lindsay-murder-state-californias-native-american-genocide>. The fourth link is from <https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2021/03/05/beni-johnson-when-it-comes-to-the-facts-regarding-john-c-fremont-leave-that-to-the-historians-who-know-history/> which directly cites the Wikipedia article. The fifth source is from TruthDig, which isn't that credible to begin with, and it also doesn't directly implicate Fremont in the genocidal activities that took place. Furthermore, Benjamin Madley appears to cite Wikipedia in the work being discussed in the TruthDig page. Overall, this sentence either needs to be better sourced or I'm taking it out. It's possible a separate section of the article should be about these matters, but it needs to be well-sourced. CessnaMan1989 (talk) 16:48, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: , I'm not sure why you are looking on Google rather than at the sources already in the article. The sentence in the lead summarizes the section "Attacks against Native Americans in California and Oregon Country (1845–1846)". It's well-cited to reliable sources - do you have concerns about any of them in particular? Lead sentences don't generally require citations, since the material will be covered again later in the article. Ganesha811 (talk) 19:54, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Those sections are about two very specific instances that are not clearly demonstrated to be part of the California Genocide, although they could fit the definition and criteria to be included in the California Genocide. The support from the sections you cite are grossly insufficient for the leading sentence though. CessnaMan1989 (talk) 21:20, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fair enough - here's a source that "clearly demonstrates" that those instances are considered to be part of the California Genocide (Madley, Benjamin (2016). An American Genocide: The United States and the California Indian Catastrophe, 1846–1873. Yale University Press.). I just double-checked and Madley explicitly discusses Fremont's role in the genocide, around page 40-50 depending on your edition. So if you'd like, go ahead and add the Madley source to the lead and remove the cn tag. There are a number of other academic sources that also include those two incidents as part of the broader California genocide. Ganesha811 (talk) 21:34, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, once I get a hold of the Madley source, which I can't directly access right now, I'll cite it.CessnaMan1989 (talk) 02:05, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  California Genocide 

message: We shift from Frémon (the father's name) to Frémont with no explanation where the T comes from in John's name . I think someone needs to research this and address it in the text. Deliusfan (talk) 03:57, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Honestly that is not worth bothering about. The 't' is not pronounced in French, and spelling of both English and French surnames at the time was very fluid. It would not have been strange in the slightest for father and son to spell their surnames differently. I would be surprised if there were any reason for the different spelling which has actually been recorded anywhere.  --Saforrest (talk) 13:14, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sudden change in last name spelling 

message: That seems a bizarre statement, considering Seward was was considered "too radical" during the election of 1860, and because the thought that Seward's nomination would spur a secessionist movement in the South, Lincoln ending up getting the nomination as the "more moderate" choice to stave this off, ironically.  In fact, the article on Radical Republicans has Seward's name right there. I think this should be researched further into what, specifically, Seward had against Frémont being appointed ambassador to France. Deliusfan (talk) 04:18, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seward objected to Frémont's radicalism? 

message: Under the heading "Fourth expedition" the final sentence of the third paragraph states "Benjamin Kern and 'Old Bill' Williams were killed while retracing the expedition trail to look for gear and survivors.(emphasis added)" The passive "were killed", absent any description of how is simply confusing. In reading the article on "Old Bill Williams" it states that "he was ambushed and killed by Ute warriors". (No article exists on Benjamin Kern.) I will change the existing sentence to reflect this. Bricology (talk) 08:35, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Benjamin Kern and 'Old Bill' Williams were killed..." 

message: Not sure why Richards has been tagged. His name is Richards, not Richardson. The book is called The California Gold Rush and the Coming of the Civil War (2007). What is the issue? Cmguy777 (talk) 18:46, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The name was apparently misspelled as "Richardson" per a past concern under a "Mystery sources" section. I also see no issue now with the name.—ADavidB 14:46, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leonard L. Richards 

message: I assume that there is no place named for him in Missouri because he is ultimately held in low regard there, despite his significance in that state's history.  The article is clear that there were several organized slander campaigns waged against him.  Also, Missouri's pro-slavery sentiments would appear to pose a natural impediment to embracing any person having Fremont's decided abolitionist legacy. 2601:243:2680:CD78:207C:A1B9:3E32:63E (talk) 21:10, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have any reliable sources to support the stated assumption and apparent impediment? —ADavidB 00:55, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  No place name in Missouri. 

message: Perhaps something like . -- Beland (talk) 05:43, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expedition maps needed