Talk:London After Midnight (band)

message: A lot of the text seems to be taken directly from the band's history page on their website. I think that the page can be edited so as to be okay, but I checked out the instructions at Wikipedia:Copyright problems which say that you should blank the page and put up a copyvio notice...? Not sure what to do here - I'm going to wait a day or so and see if anyone has any ideas. Cantara 19:53, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: possible copyvio

message: Some quick comments because I theoretically am at work now.
#Please try and find some outside help for the article.  I don't think Blipblip yet has a handle on what makes a good article, and he has conflict of interest issues.  Deathrocker is perhaps overly aggressive in removing material and has revert limitations.  Some other editors would provide additional perspective and could rescue parts of Blipblip's contributions that are worth rescuing.
#Bibliographic citations need at a minimum the name of the source (like a magazine), date and page number.  Including the article title and author name are preferred, like this:  (Jan Wenner, "Rock sucks." Rolling Stone, June 31, 2007, page 44).  Linking to the magazine's homepage is of no value—direct link to the article if it is freely available on line, otherwise don't link at all, just give the bibliographic details.  Linking to transcripts on another web site is prohibited unless the site has permission to repost the information.  Transcripts of magazine articles are probably copyright violations and we do not link to external sites that violate copyright.  Again, provide the bibliographic information.
#If a magazine publishes an interview, and the band's web site posts the "longer, unedited" version, the parts that are only in the band's version fall under the Self-published sources section of the reliable source policy.
#Blipblip and Deathrocker need to talk about some of the disputed information on the article talk page for others to evaluate and make the edits.  I am thinking specifically here about the issue of whether the band is a one-man project (kind of like Boston (band)) or a multi-person band; and the issue of the former bass player.  I think it would be acceptable to discuss the issue of the bass player using Brennan and Areklett personal blogs as sources, since they are writing about themselves, but I would like a third opinion on that.  In any case, the Neutral point of view policy requires that if the issue is dicussed, both sides need to be presented fairly.  If an outside reader can detect the wikipedia article taking sides in the matter, that is a violation.  It would be better to report what some third party reliable source has to say about the matter, if one can be found.  
#Deathrocker can not revert the article more than once per day or twice per week, but he can make useful edits that are not reversions.  For example, the current version is poorly wikified, and the references need to formatted per WP:FOOTNOTES.  Some additions that you might disagree with in the long run could still be rewritten for style and tone without removing significant content.  And of course discuss it on the talk page.  Of course, if the net result of many minor formatting edits is to reduce the article back to Deathrocker's perferred version, or something close to it, that's a revert violation, but he know that.  He may prefer to play it safe and see if any outside editors agree with him. (Even people with whom he argues on some topics but who are knowledgable about music might be helpful here--hint hint.)  
I'll look in on this over the weekend and see how you are doing. Thatcher131 15:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How about working together? 

message: *:Image:Sean_brennan.gif was tagged with the license  which means that the copyright holder has allowed it to be "freely reproduced, distributed, transmitted, used, modified, built upon, or otherwise exploited in any way by anyone for any purpose, commercial or non-commercial, with or without attribution of the author, as if in the public domain", in essence "releasing all rights". However it appears that the copyright holder when contacted by Wikipedia did not want to release the rights to the image. See the deletion log entry. 
*:Image:Lampromo.gif lacks source information, which is incompatible with the fair use critera. I have provided a detailed fair use rationale (which is a requirement and was previously lacking), but if no source information is forthcoming the image might be deleted in seven days. If that should happen a new image with proper source information could be uploaded under the fair use criteria to illustrate the article, provided that no free image exists.
More information on how images are used on Wikipedia can be found at Wikipedia:Images. --Oden 18:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Image:Sean brennan.gif]] and [[:Image:Lampromo.gif]] 

message: 1. Your opinion doesn't matter. What matters is accuracy. LAM is not a band or group, as you refuse to comprehend (and as sourced). It is Sean Brennan's music, as stated on the LAM website itself and in sourced interviews. There is LAM, which is Brennan, and then there are live band members who change all the time. Your list of live band members is missing most who have come and gone. The live band has done tours on 3 continents without Tamlyn, for example. Listing live members is fine, however you must do it correctly and accurately! 
2. Alternative is the most accurate genre description. But the genre isn't a major issue.
3. This is where Deathrocker loses focus. My edits continually make it clear that LAM, as an entity, has pushed a political and social agenda since the beginning. The music is also sometimes political, like with the song Revenge and all the material played since 1999-ish. His edits, claiming LAM music isn't political, is not accurate as released music has been political in nature, and the thing that is LAM is entirely political. My objections were to his wording. It seems he's coming from the point of view of a disgruntled fan. His approache is a negative one, calling into question the very nature of LAM. Also see number 4 where he implies that LAM don't play new music that is political, etc. Again, his approach seem to contain some negative bias that isn't sourced or valid, IMO.
All the songs cited as being "sexual" are not sexual. Your Best Nightmare is the most sexual and that's a black comedy styled like an Edward Gorey comic. I would think that outweighs the sex aspect when describing the song. The other songs are clearly not sexual (taking one word out of context doesn't amount to a song being sexual. Bondage Song uses bondage as a metaphor for control between people and on a larger scale, society (which the song's subject) but mentions no specific sex acts. If Deathrocker's assertion is that LAM's music is sexual in nature by these songs, then anyone can argue the LAM's music is political and socially aware in nature from the song Revenge etc (and the unreleased material, the philosophy behind the project, etc).
4. Evidence of Deathrockers hostile tone. Constantly referring to Brennan as "frontman", when he is more accurately the creator and songwriter and instrumentalist, he fails to differentiate between the live aspect of LAM compared to the creative aspect of LAM. Igniring edits adn blanking out sourced info (not a group, for example). Inferring there is no political music in LAM ("supposedly played live"), hostility over the last release date of a CD, etc. Again, its his wording that's the problem which paints an inaccurate picture. Again, he's shaping his edits in a hostile way. Thats what I objected to and told him.
5. Again the Areklett info you had was inaccurate. I blanked it until you corrected it but you refused to correct it! I have now corrected it for you and added sources.
6. You continually revert the article back to the one you've written, discarding my major points (the group aspect, casting doubt on the future release and the political nature of LAM, etc, again displaying a nagative tone). Again pay attention to what I actually edit and tell you on talk pages and then we will be able to proceed and make a more accurate article. Also your chronology of live members is wrong, you're listing people who never played live with LAM, your chronology of press coverage is wrong, etc. I had blanked that until you fixed it but you refused to fix it. I tried to edit it so its somewhat more accurate using your writing but its quite clumsily written so overall its still not a true reflection of reality.
7. False. In regard to this I told you I edited some bits for clarity, grammar and some spelling (for example "limitating" is NOT A WORD!). The official site (which you clearly haven't visited) mentions Helter Skelter so I'm not trying to cover up this fact. It just wasn't that important. The specific focus on unimportant details (like a cover song or what club was played at when) weren't as important as some things which you edited out or changed the meaning of entirely with your edits. See my version posted on 00:29, 18 November 2006 and compare it to yours. There are major themes there that you have chopped out or changed the meaning of. 
This is supposed to be an encyclopedic entry on a musical artist. Rather than rehashing tour dates (more appropriate for a bio press release) perhaps you should define what LAM actually is. Tour dates can of course be added, along with live member info or what project some ex-live member is doing now, however shouldn't the focus be on defining what LAM is, how the press views them, how they are seen as influencing a scene, etc? Those are more important aspects when contributing encyclopedic information on a subject than a retelling of tour dates and ex-associates current activities.--Blipblip 21:19, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Response to Deathrocker

message: You are confusing the issue by not paying attention to the edits I've made and what is being objected to. Implying that LAM isn't political, as you've done repeatedly, proves a lack of knowledge of the band. LAM never claimed to have released music with 100% political content (though Sean has released some music and is about to release more which has been played in concert for years- a fact that you seem to doubt). Again read exactly what I objected to in regards to your edits about the political aspect of LAM. You simply aren't understanding what I'm saying.
Referring to someone as "frontman" in this case is misleading, because it implies that there are others who are responsible in some way outside the live arena. Can you not comprehend what I am saying (repeatedly)? (and is it THAT important a word to you that you have to continually erase all my edits or discount these major points?!). Again, you need to understand what LAM is and how that differs from the live band. Your continual unbending and some might say negative, tone, where you refuse to accept modifying your wording, seems to imply you like using words that are objectionable to some (out of ego perhaps?), when its clear you possess a lack of knowledge on the subject as I've shown. Therefore the impression that you are being "hostile".
And again you can't take one word or line out of context. I can provide numerous examples of songs that verge on "sexual" in NIN music, for example, but people don't describe the band's music as mostly sexual in nature.--Blipblip 01:35, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: deathrocker

message: One of my posts was made prior to Thatcher's, the other he made while I was writing up a my last message so I'd not read it yet. See the times of the posts. Thatcher had posted one message after one of mine and WHILE I wrote another (so I'd not seen it).
Anyway- try to calm down ok? I told NO "untruths" as you accuse me of having done. Your response here exhibits a hostile tone (as I already pointed out in your edits) and favoritism (or desire to promote) Covet rather than a desire to get the facts straight about LAM. The Covet site has had no updates for over 2 years as can be seen on the site, and no major release (you can't verify it was released on mp3.com, can you?)- hence the reference to it being abandoned. The singer lyricist quit and joined the army. There is no bias against Areklett, only factual information as sourced. You are seeing my desire to clear up what LAM is as a bias against live performers which is absurd. You need to stop thinking LAM is a group of guys. Its not.
Lyrics- again I explained about the lyrics. You can't take a couple of lines from a couple of songs and claim  ALL music is sexual. That's your misinterpretation of some words from 4 songs . And you're also painting with too broad a brush. Also if you're so bent on saying LAM's music is sexual due to a few lines then you should admit it's political and socially aware in nature because of various songs like Revenge, Bondage Song (about human interaction being more and more based on control rather than interaction), Kiss (which is about sexual abuse in organized religion, not sex) (not to mention the new material as well, the long history of social and political causes pushed by Brennan). Or maybe LAM's music is X-mas due to The Christmas Song and Sally's Song cover? 
I have told you repeatedly about the "ex-members". I asked you to correct the wording and then they can be added without me objecting. Personally I feel no need to add them as they didn't contribute to what LAM actually is (they are more like hired tour musicians than band members who shape LAM (though I have added the line about Tamlyn's "Ice" song being included by Brennan on Oddities). But if you feel the need to add live performers to the page why only add some? There are many more than who you list. But list them as LIVE performers who perform Brennan's music. Not members of a band.
Covet- The "virtually abandoned" language can be removed if you're so uncomfortable with it, however its true as half the band joined the army and went to Iraq (as sourced). I don't see why you view it as negative. Yet- You seem to feel the need to talk about fans being frustrated with LAM because a CD hasn't been released in a few years, etc. You're being hypocritical and writing stuff about LAM that's VERY POV (YOUR interpretation of lyrics, YOUR unsourced impression of what fans feel, YOUR idea of influences [you had the Cure in there at one point], YOUR impression of what the band's sound is, YOUR impression of what the band is and who makes it up when sourced material says otherwise, etc) and then you object to me saying Covet is abandoned - when it has been abandoned as can be seen from no updates to the site since about 2004 and no full release. A covet song being on MySpace doesn't mean it was released on MP3.com, by the way. You seem to think that's proof they released a single. Its not. They just put some songs on the page.
Regarding live "members" again- The point was that for some reason you cannot distinguish between people who played Sean's music in concert from time to time, and LAM itself. Some (like Areklett) were only live performers and contributed nothing else to LAM. LAM- the entity is another thing, which is what this Wiki page is for. THAT LAM is responsible for writing and recording the music, doing art for the band, shaping the message and philosophy, etc (this being Brennan). Your insistence on inaccurate language was my objection!!!
Why do you view this as "POV" and favoritism? The point is that you view these facts as "POV" shows you really have very little understanding or knowledge of LAM. Again you need to understand LAM is Sean Brennan. Then we have live performers who perform when the band tours. Do you understand this yet? These members change all the time. Some, like Tamlyn who's been around for a while, sometimes don't even go on tour when Brennan takes LAM on the road (and as I sourced).--Blipblip 02:11, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: deathrocker=

message: This is a dispute about whether the article is about a band or a music project, whether this band/music project belongs to any genre, whether the music is political and the inclusion/exclusion of former band members from the article. 10:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Comment 

message: ==== Deathrocker ====
Band or Project?: Brennan (the frontman) has called them a band in interviews before;
Interviewer: You say it has been a struggle to form a band you can work well with-do you feel you've achieved this yet?
Brennan: Yes. (...) The line up now, the four of us, are all positive and eager to do things. We've been together since 1992 and all is going great. It's really been great, and things have fallen into place in such a way that has inspired us all to really put everything we have into this band.  - Deathrocker 12:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

message: Band or Project?: Brennan (the frontman) has called them a band in interviews before;
Interviewer: You say it has been a struggle to form a band you can work well with-do you feel you've achieved this yet?
Brennan: Yes. (...) The line up now, the four of us, are all positive and eager to do things. We've been together since 1992 and all is going great. It's really been great, and things have fallen into place in such a way that has inspired us all to really put everything we have into this band.  - Deathrocker 12:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Deathrocker|Deathrocker]] 

message: The above quote was referring to an older version of the live band. LIVE BAND. Again- when you are talking about LAM MUSIC you can't credit the CDs, music, art, etc to "they", the "group", etc. What's so hard to understand about this? You refuse to understand this simple objection, which I've sourced. Again your wording is the problem here. I don't see why you're being so hostile about this and refusing to understand, erasing this article over and over. You can reference the LAM site itself to see that what I say is true (or see the sources I provided, one of which you've erased). You can talk about the live band all you want but you should refer to them as the live band. Its very easy. What's the problem here? Why do you keep erasing fact and replacing it with your opinion? 
I have provided sourced info for this "member" situation. YOU HAVE ACTUALLY REMOVED sources! I have not removed sources to my knowledge (if I have please let me know exactly what I missed. I want an accurate article), I just removed just false info or poor grammar. My edits fix false info, your opinion which you attempt to pass off as fact, spelling errors, false quotes, false timelines, etc. You keep reposting false info, false quotes, even the same spelling errors.--Blipblip 17:16, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Blipblip|Blipblip]] 

message: *Comment, copyright violation and proposal:
**I have left a message at Wikipedia:WikiProject Rock music and one at Wikipedia:WikiProject Metal asking for an expert to weigh in on this edit war. 
**This edit appears to be a copyright violation from http://www.londonaftermidnight.com/history.html which states "All content (c) 2006 London After Midnight". Per Wikipedia:Copyright problems a revert to the clean revision is the solution for blatant copyright infringements. (I don't know how much of the copyrighted material is still left in the article though).
**Another solution would be to start a new article at Talk:London After Midnight (band)/Temp and move it into the place of the current article after a consensus is reached, since the wording of the present article seems to be a matter of contention. --Oden 21:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments 

message: All I can see here is a constant edit war. Please settle this by discussion on the talk page. If that doesn't work use dispute resolution. I've protected this until parties start working it out instead of constant reverting.--Docg 17:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: See also Template:Infobox musical artist. For inspiration: Marilyn Manson (band), AC/DC, Rush (band), Guns N' Roses, Led Zeppelin, Queen (band), Megadeth, Iron Maiden. --Oden 01:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed the words North America and Europe from infobox since Russia is also a part of Europe, the record labels are listed by nationality instead. --Oden 03:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New infobox 

message: Wow, powerful new genre term. I'd have to agree with it somewhat though. I was actually wondering who put it in.
Jotsko (talk) 00:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Gothic Sleaze" 

message: I took some images of LAM at WGT 2008, please feel free to use any of them in this article if you deem them suitable. Flickr Page 77.184.85.113 (talk) 10:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Some Images" 

message: I edited a few points on this page to make it more accurate; LAM didn't form in 1989, as was stated. It formed in 1990; Psycho Magnet release date fixed; AGAIN fixed the false quote attributed to Sean, calling the goth label "artistically limitating". Sean never used the word "limitating", as it's not a word. He said "LIMITING". Quote has been correted. I've been correcting this one quote for years, please stop reverting this page; Also, removed some false information about LAM's lyrics referencing vampires. There are NO Lyrics that reference vampires; Generally this article has more inaccurate inforamtion, speculation and personal interpretation rather than fact and SERIOUSLY needs to be edited. But whenver I edit this stuff to be more accurate, someone comes along and simply reverts the page. How can this be rectified? Blipblip (talk) 20:10, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "EDITS" 

message: I am removing this section.  It is all a violation of WP:OR and not notable enough to warrant a subsection in the article. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 08:58, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lineup, Confusion, and Conflict over Members 

message: I have never listened to this band (came across them via the film article), but there was some horrible writing. I've copy-edited a bit to remove some of the more pompous stuff, but it probably needs a proper look by someone that is more familiar with the subject material - and by that I definitely don't mean some hagiographer! Can we get some actual reliable sources in there? I've left alone the opening line that they are a "project" rather than a band (which they obviously are - there is such a thing as a one-man band at any rate, but it appears many people have played for this "project") purely because there appears to be history on the talk page. But seriously, claiming they are not band is just massively pretentious, and it would take 10 seconds on Google to find reference to this band being, um, a band. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 23:27, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Full disclosure 

message: Not to flog a dead horse, but it's a pretty simple matter to use the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine and see curated copies of LAM's official website, the same website that is being appealed to on this talk page as the only reliable source, for some reason.  Reading the "band" and "interview" and "history" pages as they evolved, it appears that prior to 2005, this was a band lead by Sean Brennan, and was nowhere described as a solo project with a "touring band." Btw, I'm only jumping into this because years and years ago I followed this band pretty obsessively, then drifted away, and recently came back here to see what "they" were up to these days, and discovered it's a solo "project," always was, always will be.  That certainly was not my impression at the time, so I look at the Talk page and lo and behold, what a raging argument on that very subject!  Anyway, the Wayback Machine is at archive.org for those who care to look.  Count Robert of Paris (talk) 12:29, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: And to add just one bit of real world evidence that LAM was a band before it became a "project," the original booklet from the Psycho Magnet CD plainly says, "London After Midnight is: Sean Brennan, voice, guitar, bass, keyboard.  Tamlyn, keyboard.  Douglass Avery, drums, percussion.  Michael Areklett, bass."  There is also mention off additional guitar being played on the CD by William Skye, so it even makes a distinction between members and a guest musician.  This does not give the impression of a solo project. Now, I have no intention of getting into the controversy any more than I have, and I feel someone with more experience with editing might revise the entire article, but the article as it stands appears to be someone's effort to rewrite history.  Count Robert of Paris (talk) 12:00, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: You are 100% correct, that the revisionist history was hard at work, and a lot of effort has been spent erasing the names of those that gave LAM that push into.... viability. I salute you, as another who was actually there back then. 63.155.29.251 (talk) 03:42, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

text: LAM at the Wayback Machine: 
https://web.archive.org/web/*/Londonaftermidnight.com Count Robert of Paris (talk) 13:46, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wayback Machine