Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Kerala/Archive 1

message: With the decrease in overseas Christian contacts, the Nasrani Mappila communities would have become more Indianized.
The Mappilas were patronized for the money they brought in to the coffers of the various kings and chieftains under whose suzerainty they traded. As their numbers increased they would have provided soldiers and weapons to their chieftains which in turn would have been rewarded with grants of land and social privileges. Some communites like the Knanaya community were granted land on immigration. This coupled with the loss of control of the trading ports to the Muslims would have resulted in the Nasranis becoming a landed community growing the spices and timber they historically traded.
Leslie Brown notes(pages 169-171) that in a lot of areas SyrChrs and Nairs were considered equals and were constantly in competition for royal patronage and privilege. The SyrChrs took wives and very likely accepted grooms after the Marumakkathayam fashion from amongst the Nairs.
:Excerpts from The Indian Christians of St Thomas, Leslie Brown page 169:"They were given charge of the collection of revenue for the rajas in certain places and in the fourteenth century Marignolli found that they were in charge of the public weighing office in the Quilon customs. Associated with concessions in the pepper and other trades was the grant of service from certain castes and the responsibility of protecting them." On page 171 he writes: "The Christians shared many other things besides names with the Nayars. They occasionally took wives from that community, and their children often went to school with Nayar children...Many families still have certain privileges in the temples which are believed to have been granted in recognition of some service given or some present made in former times. For example at the Arat festival in Parappatattu temple the oldest member of the Pulikkamarrattil family of Syrians (who bore the title of Panikkar or Menon)had the right to go before the image of the deity and received rice and other presents". On page 170 he says: "The other privileges granted by the rajas were of use in establishing the position of the Christians in society and as such were most jealously guarded. In the sixteenth century the raja of Paravur tried to give similar privileges to the Nayaras of his State but the Christians rose in armed revolt and forced him to change his mind"
It is likely that in places where Nairs and Christians were on par socially, or the latter higher (as in Paravur above), it is my belief that the increasing social clout of the SyrChrs would have resulted in some of these families being able to participate in the practise of Marumakkathayam with scions of Namboothiri families. The children born to these marriages would claim Namboothiri descent on the male side (the SyrChrs were patrilineal) and the families of today that claim Brahmin blood very likely are descended from these unions. The tale of Namboothiri conversions by the Apostle Thomas could be an attempt at hoariness by these families in my opinion.
Various sources including Leslie Brown and such documents as the Synod of Diamper mention the practise of cohabition with Indian slave women - i.e. women from the oppressed labour communities of Kerala. This would have resulted in the children from these marriages becoming part of the SyrChr communities.
:The Synod of Diamper has a "Decree XI" in it's "Action IX. Of the Reformation of Manners." section that reads: "Whereas there are great numbers of Christians who for want of having the Fear of God and the Church before their Eyes, do cohabit publickly with Concubines, to the great scandal of Christianity; the Vicars shall therefore with great Charity admonish all such Offenders, three times declaring to them, That if they do not reform, they must declare them Excommunicate, and if after so many Admonitions they do not turn away their Concubines, they must be Excommunicated until they are effectually parted, and be punished with other Penalties at the pleasure of the Prelate, according to the time that they have lived in that Sin, and when it shall so happen that their Concubines are their Slaves, they shall constrain them not only to turn them out of their Houses, but to send them out of the Country where they live, that there may be no more danger of their relapsing, which shall be likewise observed as to all other Women where there is the same danger."
The SyrChr communities continued to be churned as the fortunes of the kings & chieftains they owed allegiance to changed over time. The strange bubble like nature of the caste system prevalent in Kerala allowed the SyrChr communities to retain their West Asian customs and practises to a significant degree.
--Veliath 12:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unions with Indian communities and social integration

message: This Mamankam article is misinformation.
Where did this fellow get such fantastic information from?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamankam
Savemalayalam 19:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. Will make a phonecall today :-) Tintin (talk) 10:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Big Blunder 

message: This is roughly what Akhilavijnanakosam (DC Books, 1988-90, 4 volumes) says about Mamankam. Many of the lines are prefixed or suffixed with 'supposed to be' or 'believed to be' :
*The earliest known Mamankam is supposed to have been held in 829 AD.
*The Chera kings used to meet with their feudal lords (naduvazhis) and such prominent people to discuss the affairs of state on the banks of Bharathapuzha. This evolved into Mamankam.
*Some of these naduvazhis used to express their allegiance to the King by making some of their soldiers commit suicide. The rituals mentioned by the 10th century traveller Abu Syed could be a reference to this (there is no other reference to suicides in this article).
*After the Cheras, the Perumpatappu rulers continued it. In their absence, Valluvanad rulers took over, and then the Zamorin, after he defeated them and conquered Thirunavaya.
*This continued till the time of Tipu's invasions and the disintegration of Zamorin's kingdom.
The article about 'Chaverpada' contains these references to Kerala :
*They find mention in the writings of the 9th century (sic) traveller Abu Syed
*They were used in the Chera-Chola wars of the 11th century.
*There are records of Valluvakonathiri using them in the 16th century.
*Kandarmenon pattu and Ramachapanickar pattu are famous chavettu pattukal
*Tintin (talk) 05:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mamankam

message: This site contains a few images that I believe are in public domain. -- thunderboltza.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK11:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  PD images 

message: I saw a program in Kannadi in Asianet this morning which argued that Nazir has acted in only 470 movies and not 630 odd as is conventionally believed. Is it a big issue in the media in Kerala, and do the claims of this guy look authentic ? Tintin (talk) 09:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I saw the programme too. What the guy says apperas to be correct, IMO. They also showed one film which had claimed to be a Nazir starrer (per the list of 630 films), but that did not feature the star anywhere. Also, perhaps it must be correct that many of them were simply dubbed versions. The IMDB listing also shows the many alternate names of his movies. -- thunderboltza.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK10:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Prem Nazir]] 

message: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/K.S. Chathunny
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Has anybody here heard of Elite Mission Hospital (it seems to be in Koorkenchery per the Thrissur article)? Is Elite industries the company that manufactures Elite bread and cakes? -- thunderboltza.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK12:49, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: http://www.elitemissionhospital.com/aboutus.php seems to have a photo of Chathunny. I dont think the founder of a hospital deserves an article for himself. Perhaps redirect and move to Elite Mission Hospital? -- thunderboltza.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK12:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Per Rajesh's comment (thank you, Rajesh), it seems the Elite group is indeed notable. But I'm still confused if it is necessary to have an article on K.S. Chathunny? -- thunderboltza.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK14:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Same opinion here. He is not notable on his own Tintin (talk) 14:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  AFD : K.S. Chathunny