Talk:Questioned document examination

message: Just added a cleanup-date template to this. The mention of a TV show on the very first paragraph and the removal of a References section (deemed not belonging to an encyclopaedia) by the main author of this article makes me highly suspicious of its accuracy and reliability.
Being ignorant on the subject myself, I consider smacking a template to be my best course of action towards helping improve this article. Removal of mentions of popular culture sources from the main body of the article and the addition of proper references would help greatly.
* These issues were resolved (I hope) and the clean-up tag removed. Brent Ostrum 21:19, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean-up 

message: Don't know if anyone is still looking at this page, but why wouldn't a forensic document expert and a graphologist be the same?  There are quite a few in the U.S. who make their living doing both.  This distinction smacks of POV, not actual case studies.  Bruxism (talk) 06:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who does this work? 

message: I noticed that Charles Chabot is in the category "Graphology".  Given the vast difference between those two fields, I think that they belong in a category of their own. OTOH, I didn't find any of the expected names in wikipedia.  :(   jonathon (talk) 04:30, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I also changed a number of wikilinks from Handwriting analysis to Questioned document examination. "Handwriting analyis" is a redirect to the article on "graphology". jonathon (talk) 01:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category: Forensic Document Examiners 

message: I tagged the article as US centric, perhaps US/Canada centric would be more accurate. The arutcle says "ASTM Standard E444-98", I am guessing that is some kind of US standard, certainly the article refers to the US legal and law enforcement system. I have no idea how handwriting analysis works in the rest of the English speaking world.  I wonder if "QDE" is used as a term outside North America? Billlion (talk) 19:47, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: 209.87.250.53 (talk) 02:38, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Re-reading the current article, I see no reason why is should be considered US-centric. ASTM standards are international and used by many countries both in and outside the Commonwealth. There are many international references included in the article as well. For these reasons, I have removed the tag. TimothyPilgrim (talk) 18:29, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: US centric

message: The image :Image:Hauptmann handwriting comparison.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --11:47, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The image refers directly to the Lindbergh kidnapping case, where document examination showed handwriting of the kidnapper and the accused to be very similar. I have thus restored thedeleted image. Peterlewis (talk) 06:56, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: * I agree with the idea that the image relates to the article however the wiki guidelines state "Copyrighted images that reasonably can be replaced by free/libre images [my emphasis added] are not suitable for Wikipedia."  IMO this image is simply representative of an historically significant QDE case.  As such perhaps it should be replaced by another similar, but 'free', image.  One example would be an image like the one on this FBI web-page.  This image should meet wiki standards as the site is a DOJ production which expressed states (in part) "information generated by the Department of Justice is in the public domain and may be reproduced, published or otherwise used without the Department’s permission. Citation to the Department of Justice as the source of the information is appreciated, as appropriate."  The exception to this policy is for use of any Department of Justice seals but this image isn't in that category.  198.103.184.76 (talk) 15:39, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Hauptmann handwriting comparison.jpg

message: Just wanted to ask for more information about why the reversion was made to the entry regarding 'tools of the trade'?  
The explanation given was simply "irrelevant data added".  I disagree - the information is quite relevant.  It consisted of a list of equipment used in the field to examine suspect documents.    There is no question that the list was not finished and needed more work; in  particular, expansion on how the equipment is used in document examination. 
I'm sure there would be a better way to present the information but I think it has value.  The 'list' at present is definitely insufficient.  In fact, it is terribly misleading because it doesn't begin to show what actually is or can be used in the field.
One of the general problems I have had with this page is the limited information about non-handwriting examination types.  There are a lot of examiners who do little more than the most basic examinations (mainly handwriting) and they require minimal equipment.  Document examination as a forensic field is much more than just handwriting examination (as mentioned in the scope). But it didn't read that way to me.  That was the reason behind the changes to the examination area to include non-handwriting topics.  
That logically leads (in my mind) to the need for more information about the equipment used (though maybe it's more a matter of methods used).  Granted that most laboratories or examiners do not have access to all of this equipment (our lab is one notable exception) but this equipment is used in the field to address a variety of QD problems.  That was also the reason why the title was changed to drop the 'common' adjective.  
So, I suppose I have 3 questions:
#is it reasonable to try and expand the information into this area?  If not, then why? 
#if it is, and the list I put up isn't the way to go, then how should the information be presented?  I am definitely open to suggestions in that regard.  
#what else does the page need?  I have been thinking about developing a section that explores issues relating to examiner competency (proficiency testing, etc) as they pertain to admissibility of this type of evidence (under rulings like Daubert, Mohan, etc).  That will take some time as it is a rather contentious issue for some people.  
Brent Ostrum (talk) 14:21, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I've left this issue for some time hoping that people might chime in with an opinion on the topic.  Since it has been over a year with no feedback at all, it's probably safe to say nobody really cares even though the "Common tools of the trade" part of this page is a ridiculously limited and incomplete list, particularly as it applies to non-handwriting examinations.  Look at the section immediately preceding this one — many of the examinations mentioned require tools and equipment not on the present list (arguably because they are not 'common' enough which was part of my original point).  Basically, I am posting this comment to 'bump' the topic with the hope that someone will notice and provide some input/commentary.  If nobody has an opinion to the contrary, I will attempt again in the New Year to improve this part of the page. RB Ostrum (talk) 15:43, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irrelevant data - 'tools of the trade'? 

message: I'm a little concerned about two recent additions to the page; specifically the entry "IFO-Forensic Standards and Research private Ltd (India)New Delhi-(IFSR)" under organizations dedicted to QDE and the URL "http://ifo.ifsr.in/handwritingexperts.html" under external links.  Both are related, of course.  I don't know either of these which isn't surprising as they are in India.  But their website suggests to me that 1) it may be a company providing this service (not a professional organization like the others on the list) and 2) they provide services in graphology (which clearly is not appropriate for the QD page).  IMO, both of these additions should be removed but I would like some other opinions before proceeding. Thanks. RB Ostrum 14:19, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That organization is more akin to World Association of Document Examiners than it is to National Association of Document Examiners.jonathon (talk) 17:23, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  That may well be the case.  But what's your opinion about whether or not this info should be on the page — do you think it should be removed or kept?  I would guess the former but I don't want to guess incorrectly. -- RB Ostrum 15:23, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think that active QDEs should make the call.   Whilst I was trained in questioned document examination, I have never worked in that field. Nonetheless, I'd exclude them because they are commercial businesses, not organizations of QDEs.  jonathon (talk) 19:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fair enough.  Now I just need to get a few more colleagues involved somehow.  I will give it some time to see if anyone else wants to comment.  Either way, I agree and don't think the info belongs here due to the 'commercial interest'.  Thanks.  -- RB Ostrum 00:44, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Inappropriate info/link?

message: Is anyone interested in adding a section pertaining to the history of QDE?  It could be broken down by geographic regions/countries and include key people, organizations, events/cases and other interesting developments (eg. technology).  The list of historical cases presently in the article is fine but doesn't give much in the way of useful information.  Comments?  — RB Ostrum. 03:16, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  History section?  

message: I would like to move the following entries from the 'Scope' section to the 'Examination' section, possibly to act as a mini-intro for the latter section: 
FDEs examine items that form part of a case which may or may not come before a court of law. The many types of possible examinations include the following:
*Handwriting (cursive / printing) and Signatures
*Typewriters, Photocopiers, Laser printers, Ink Jet Printers, Fax machines
*Chequewriters, Rubber stamps, Price markers, Label makers
*Printing Processes
*Ink, Pencil, Paper
*Alterations, additions, erasures, obliterations
*Indentation detection and/or decipherment
*Sequence of Strokes
*Physical Matching
Please note that I don't have a problem with the list, per se.  
I just think it would fit better in the other section of the page.  Any comments?  — RB Ostrum. 17:59, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In the absence of any comments to the contrary and in line with WP:BB I am moving this section.  — RB Ostrum. 01:20, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scope and list of examination types 

message: Content analysis is definitely related to QDE, since it's also about determining the authorship of a document (although it uses the text instead of the means of writing or printing). Thus, it belongs in the "See also" section. NeonMerlin 14:19, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That's an interesting argument.  Depending upon your definition of content analysis, the argument holds though I have always considered it more aligned with stylometry than forensic handwriting analysis (which is only part of the field of questioned document examination).  Nonetheless, I don't see any significant issue adding it to "See also".  — RB Ostrum. 15:00, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Content analysis 

message: I was just reviewing the recent edit by Tumacama regarding the Adolf Beck cases from 1896 and 1904.  The entry presently reads "The Adolf Beck cases (1896 and 1904) where handwriting expert Thomas H. Gurrin repeated an erroneous identification".  I have only a passing familiarity with the case and know of it more for its role in pointing out issues with eye-witness identification than for the handwriting.  Out of curiosity I checked a few references (starting with the wiki page) but I didn't see any support for the claim that there had been a repeated error.  Maybe I missed something but it wasn't clear to me that any handwriting expert had been involved in the 1904 matter at all.  Anyway, I tagged this as a dubious claim with the hope that a clear reference could be provided one way or the other. — RB Ostrum. 02:51, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Managed to sort this out.  Handwriting evidence was not used in either the 1877 or 1904 cases during the trials.  Gurrin was involved in the 1896 trial when he did falsely identify Beck — his examination at that time involved material from both 1877 and 1904.  Part of the prosecution argument in 1896 was that Beck was really 'John Smith', a man who had been found guilty and imprisoned for the previous crime in 1877.  In 1904 the issue of Beck's innocence relating to all three incidents (1877, 1896 and 1904) was ultimately resolved after the real culprit, supposedly Wilhelm Meyer, was discovered. So, as far as the article entry is concerned, it would seem there was no 'repeat' error by Gurrin; just one error in 1896 that involved both that and an earlier date. — RB Ostrum. 16:29, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

text: Oops.  Ignore my previous entry.  Gurrin did repeat his error in 1904 with Gurrin testifying at the Old Bailey on June 27, 1904.  Sorry for the confusion. — RB Ostrum. 16:50, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adolf Beck 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There seems to be some confusion about this section of the article. The intent was/is to provide an explanation of the processes used for this work (ACE-V), as presented and explained by the original author who coined the term. 
In an effort to clarify that this section presents that point-of-view as-is, I have rewritten it accordingly. That was done to avoid incorrect paraphrasing (or misinterpretation about the intent of these entries).  I don't know if the formatting is perfect though — I opted for blockquotes for each entry and that may not be the best choice. — RB Ostrum. 15:04, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  ACE-V cleanup 

message: I've been thinking that this article should be moved to the new name of "Forensic Document Examination". When I created the article back in 2004, I named it based on many of the references I was reading at the time. The term "Questioned" persists only in the associations' names for historical reasons, but in modern parlance (as it was also in 2004 actually), the term "Forensic" is definitely the accurate descriptor. TimothyPilgrim (talk) 00:58, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Rename Request 

message: Is there a Wikipedia article specifically about analysis for authentication of handwritten signatures?
I see that at least one person was looking for such an article, and was surprised that signature analysis redirects to an unrelated article about (electronic) "analog signature analysis".
If there's currently no specific article on the topic of authenticating handwritten signatures, is there even a specific *section* of an article specifically about that topic?
I see that a bunch of articles briefly mention examination of handwritten signatures, including graphanalysis (which redirects to a section of this questioned document examination article), authentication, Writer Recognition (which redirects to handwritten biometric recognition), handwriting recognition, optical character recognition, and intelligent word recognition.
(I've heard that at least some of the electronic signature collection devices that I "sign" with a stylus somehow use "extra" information about timing, pressure variations, etc. to do a better job confirming that it's really me, vs. than other systems that only analyze a "photo" of a complete handwritten signature).
None of the sections in those articles seem to be specifically about analyzing a person's name in the form of a hand-written signature for the purpose of detecting whether it's a forgery by some other person pretending to be some person by writing that person's name.
--DavidCary (talk) 00:10, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  analysis for authentication of handwritten signatures