Talk:Soul food

message: Or even so-called "White Trash" cooking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Matthew_Mickler  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:6AE5:2510:0:0:0:24 (talk) 00:00, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: General Southern food

message: Is this term in the article correct?
"Southern American African Americans"
:It's not wrong, but it's a bit stilted.  I'll beat on it some. Salsa Shark 07:42, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: There's plenty of soul food restaurants in the South, or at least there are in Georgia. There was one around the corner from my high school (and we got to go when we made straight-A's). There's even one in Orlando, Florida--the Motown Cafe at Universal Orlando. It's more of a "corporate" version of a soul food restaurant, but the more true-to-life ones are plentiful (nearly omnipresent) in Atlanta--b. Touch 07:04, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Older comments

message: I think there definitely needs to be a nod to this style of cuisine as part of soul food -- and, perhaps, a separate section.  deeceevoice 07:43, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Low Country Cooking

message: Going on the common journalistic principle that you "assume the reader know nothing"--i.e., has no foreknowledge of any major point in the article, this list suffers from familiar to distinguish between "soul food," which I would define as those dishes especially associated with African-Americans, and "things that African-Americans traditionally like to eat" or "commonly ate in Southern households."
Certain things, such as chitterlings and collards have a strong association with black cuisine and culture, while others are not at all special. Mac 'n' cheese, meatloaf and mashed potatoes are stereotypical middle-American fare. Chicken livers are prepared in anything from chopped liver (associated with Jews) to roasting in piquant sauces. Hot sauce is more identifiable to Hispanic/Latino culture. Rice? Just about everywhere in the world. I think we should figure out some way of better informing the reader. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 19:56, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Classifying something as "soul food" doesn't mean it is exclusive to African American culture.  And, no.  Hot sauce is definitely a soul food item.  It is different from Tabasco sauce and different from anything found in traditionally Indio-Latino food.  Peppers and spicy food are all about spices (peppers) commonly grown used in tropical climates and common in African/creole cooking, as opposed to the relative blandness of traditional European (white) food.  (Remember, white folks went to the Orient/Africa for their spices.)  And rice is most definitely soul food.  In fact, had it not been for the expertise of African slaves, who were familiar with the crop, rice cultivation likely would not have survived in the U.S. at all.  What?  Because rice is eaten all over tthe world, you would not mention it in an article devoted to the culinary traditions of China or Japan?  Ridiculous!  deeceevoice 23:34, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Actually African foods in themselves is not soul food. Soul food is Southern black food. Louisiana is more African than Southern. So they are not included. RICE is not soul food. It's Spanish food, common in Spain and Spanish countries.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.104.210.47 (talk) 01:25, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem with the list 

message: I thought some of the people interested soul food might be interested in the question of what to name the article currently known as Collard greens.
There are really two questions.  One is a complicated one about what is collard greens, what is kale, and what is spring greens, and whether they should have separate articles or be merged.
The second is, assuming there is a separate article, whether it should be called Collard, Collards, or Collard greens.
Your thoughts are welcome.
Pekinensis 19:11, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Call it Collard greens, and state in the lead sentence "Collard greens, also known as simply collards...". I've heard a few people say "collards", but almost everyone I know says "collard greens". --b. Touch 01:51, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Collard greens 

message: A page on soul food with out including "Sweet Bread"?  I hope my Mama don't see this page.
:LOL! --FuriousFreddy 02:29, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sweet Bread 

message: I can't find the word slaveowner in any of the dictionaries I have (Webster's 11th Collegiate, American Heritage, 4th ed., Chambers, 9th ed.). Is there a source for slaveowner? Thanks. —Wayward Talk 02:05, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The word ''slaveowner'' 

message: What foods were brought from Africa?  Rich Farmbrough, 21:14 3  September 2006 (GMT).
:Peanuts but they were brought from South America to Africa first.  Perhaps watermelon and black-eyed peas.12.27.66.8 (talk) 20:32, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-native food

message: I'm thinking there should be a section dealing with food-related rituals in African American culture here.  Like the pouring of libations "for those who are no longer here" -- very West African.  Like the preparation and consumption of greens (or cabbage) and blackeyed peas for New Year's Day to ensure prosperity. Like church homecoming picnics and Sunday dinners and rent parties -- and, oh, those Saturday night fish fries! deeceevoice 05:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rituals

message: IM pretty sure that "native american" food had more of an influence on soul food than is suggested in the article.
                                                                                                                                         that is so true i believe there is more native american influence then was mentioned because most african americans and their culture is tri-racial native american and european and west and central african influence on african americans and their culture is extremaly high  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.112.93.105 (talk) 20:10, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Indigenous Influence

message: I read only one section and made a few changes. The piece needs a good editorial once-over.  There were a lot of generalizations that needed qualifying, or text that required general clean-up for unencyclopedic language in the portion I read.  Also, throughout "south" is often not capitalized -- which is incorrect.  When used to refer to the region, it is always capitalized.  deeceevoice 20:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Needs work

message: "Soul food was developed by enslaved Africans who lived under the difficult and impoverished conditions of grinding physical labor. The history of soul food does not begin with the roots of slavery, but with traditions stretching back to Africa." Either it began with slavery or not. Either this is inconsistent or confusingly stated.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.1.172 (talk) 19:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. And its caused a race-centric heart disease pandemic that the article quietly tip-toes around. --98.232.182.66 (talk) 09:45, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistency in "Soul food and health" 

message: The article on southern cuisine does not have despite southern cuisine being VERY unhealthy. YVNP (talk) 14:42, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  why is there a hea;th section? 

message: The section
"African American slaves also developed recipes which used discarded meat from the plantation, such as pigs' feet, beef tongue or tail, ham hocks, chitterlings (pig small intestines), pig ears, hog jowls, tripe and skin."
is somewhat misleading as it suggests (perhaps unintentionally) that African American slaves developed the recipe of chitterlings.  Chitterling is a Middle English word (1066-1460 AD) for a pig's small intestine, especially when fried as a food, and it was a common foodstuff for poor people in Europe in the medieval period. Likewise tripe is a Middle English word and refers amongst other things to those parts of the entrails (commonly the stomach) used as food. Poor people in medieval Europe used pretty much every part of the animal; I'm sure poor people across the world did the same, so it is not a specifically African American slave-related thing to exploit these parts.  Is there some way of phrasing the sentence unambiguously so that it is clear they they used these parts but that there is no suggestion that they were the first to do so. 86.133.244.80 (talk) 12:38, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Chitterlings

message: Just wanted to note that a user just removed a ton of valid information; all of the following was removed:
	
===Other items=== 	
* Chow-chow (a spicy, homemade pickle relish sometimes made with okra, corn, cabbage, hot peppers, green tomatoes and other vegetables; commonly used to top black-eyed peas and otherwise as a condiment and side dish)
	 
- 	
* Grits (or "hominy grits", made from processed, dried, ground corn kernels and usually eaten as a breakfast food the consistency of porridge; also served with fish and meat at dinnertime, similar to polenta) Eaten by most Americans in the south
	 
- 	
* Hot sauce (a condiment of cayenne peppers, vinegar, salt, garlic and other spices often used on chitterlings, fried chicken and fish including homemade or Texas Pete, Frank's, Tabasco, or Louisiana brand) A contribution from the Cajun people of Louisiana
	 
- 	
* Macaroni and cheese (usually cooked from scratch with cheddar cheese, milk, flour, and seasonings mustard is option but a rarity.) It becomes a casserole when meats, such as bacon or ham, are added. Eaten all over America
	 
- 	
* Rice pudding, with rice and corn-based vanilla pudding Eaten in many cultures
	 
- 	
* Sorghum syrup (from sorghum, or "Guinea corn," a sweet grain indigenous to Africa introduced into the U.S. by African slaves in the early 17th century; see biscuits); frequently referred to as "sorghum molasses"
	 
- 	
* Sweet tea, inexpensive orange pekoe (black tea, often Lipton, Tetley, or Luzianne brands) boiled, sweetened with cane sugar, and chilled, served with lemon. The tea is sometimes steeped in the sun instead of boiled; this is referred to as "sun tea" General Southern cuisine
	 
- 	
* Salmon Patties (also known as Salmon Croquet/Croquettes), a mixture of skinned & de-boned salmon, mixed with cornmeal, eggs, milk and onions fried in a skillet to make small, round patties.
	 
- 	
* Red Velvet Cake - a popular cake within the African-American culture, in which some say the dark reddish color of the cake symbolizes the struggles of African-Americans during the decades. Eaten in many cultures
	 
- 	
* Waffles
	 
- 	
* Watermelons
	 
- 	
* Banana Pudding
--172.129.151.213 (talk) 05:36, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I see why its having been removed is a problem. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 05:46, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lots of valid info removed 

message: * Chow-chow (a spicy, homemade pickle relish sometimes made with okra, corn, cabbage, hot peppers, green tomatoes and other vegetables; commonly used to top black-eyed peas and otherwise as a condiment and side dish)
	 
- 	
* Grits (or "hominy grits", made from processed, dried, ground corn kernels and usually eaten as a breakfast food the consistency of porridge; also served with fish and meat at dinnertime, similar to polenta) Eaten by most Americans in the south
	 
- 	
* Hot sauce (a condiment of cayenne peppers, vinegar, salt, garlic and other spices often used on chitterlings, fried chicken and fish including homemade or Texas Pete, Frank's, Tabasco, or Louisiana brand) A contribution from the Cajun people of Louisiana
	 
- 	
* Macaroni and cheese (usually cooked from scratch with cheddar cheese, milk, flour, and seasonings mustard is option but a rarity.) It becomes a casserole when meats, such as bacon or ham, are added. Eaten all over America
	 
- 	
* Rice pudding, with rice and corn-based vanilla pudding Eaten in many cultures
	 
- 	
* Sorghum syrup (from sorghum, or "Guinea corn," a sweet grain indigenous to Africa introduced into the U.S. by African slaves in the early 17th century; see biscuits); frequently referred to as "sorghum molasses"
	 
- 	
* Sweet tea, inexpensive orange pekoe (black tea, often Lipton, Tetley, or Luzianne brands) boiled, sweetened with cane sugar, and chilled, served with lemon. The tea is sometimes steeped in the sun instead of boiled; this is referred to as "sun tea" General Southern cuisine
	 
- 	
* Salmon Patties (also known as Salmon Croquet/Croquettes), a mixture of skinned & de-boned salmon, mixed with cornmeal, eggs, milk and onions fried in a skillet to make small, round patties.
	 
- 	
* Red Velvet Cake - a popular cake within the African-American culture, in which some say the dark reddish color of the cake symbolizes the struggles of African-Americans during the decades. Eaten in many cultures
	 
- 	
* Waffles
	 
- 	
* Watermelons
	 
- 	
* Banana Pudding
--172.129.151.213 (talk) 05:36, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I see why its having been removed is a problem. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 05:46, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Other items

message: This section is confusing:
:Many culinary historians believe that in the beginning of the 14th century, around the time of early Euro-African exploration, European explorers brought their own food supplies and introduced them into local African diets. Foods such as corn and cassava from the Americas, turnips from Morocco, and cabbage from Portugal would play an important part in the history of African-American cooking.
 
:When the Europeans began their African slave trade in the early 15th century, the diet of newly-enslaved Africans changed on the long journeys away from their homelands. It was during this time that some of the indigenous crops of Africa began showing up in the Americas.
How could corn and cassava be introduced to Africa by Europeans in the early 14th century (i.e. early 1300s) when these foods didn't appear in Europe until after 1492? Should "14th" read "16th"?
And the African slave trade to the Americas did not begin until the 16th (not 15th) century.
I don't have access to the cited reference so can't check these out properly. Newburyjohn (talk) 08:31, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins section - dates 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I've proposed an article on the trend for healthy soul food at Proposed Articles.  If you Google the phrase you will find there is a lot of interest in this.12.27.66.8 (talk) 19:38, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Healthy Soul Food

message: So I see people have been complaining since at least twelve years ago that this article is incorrect in suggesting that these are 'black foods', and saying that these are foods that were, and are, eaten by ALL poor Southerners, which included both the blacks and a majority of the whites. Yet no-one as bothered to actually fix it. Maybe they are waiting for a round 15 years? It's called 'soul food' and associated with blacks because it is found in black urban neighborhoods were they serve food associated with home. If you were to find large concentrations of poor Southern whites that had moved North and settled in the cities, you'd undoubtedly find the same food called 'Reb chow' or something of the sort. But the poor whites stayed home, or went West and integrated into the larger population...along with their cooking... instead of forming 'Confederate Towns' in major Northern cities. The blacks did migrate, and the term 'soul food' used to describe the home cooking found in black restaurants was adopted and came to be used even in the South. If it was already in use, then that was what popularized it. But it's not 'black food', and it wasn't invented by black people. 
64.222.158.24 (talk) 05:11, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can provide sources for these assertions, you are more than welcome to improve the article. Jessicapierce (talk) 05:15, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not black food 

message: Although some users are concerned about the origins of Soul Food, I have been doing research that supports the claim that soul food has strong African influences. Thus, I seek to add sections to this page regarding the following: African influence, and perhaps a cultural relevance section discussing the work that scholars did during the Civil Rights Movement and Black Power Movements to have soul food positioned as an aspect of the African American cultural identity. I will not be adding these until I have sufficient sources. I also plan on making minor changes to the language on the page and will be deleting phrases that seem less relevant or biased. Cheesesteaklover16 (talk) 06:00, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pending Updates 

message: He give a nuanced and detailed overview that seems useful. He divides th history into
The Slave Food period (1619-1865)  which is about what the slaves themselves ate.
The Southern Cooking period (1865-present) "African Americans foodways within the rural South after Emancipation and before, during, and after the Great Migrations."
The Down Home Cooking period (1890S-1970S) where he discussed urban foodways - what happened during the Great Migrations. 
The Soul Food period (i950s-present)  where southern food merges with racial politics
TNeo-Soul period (1990s-present.
He discusses the three regional systems of slavery quoting Isaiah Berlin:"a Northern non-plantation system and two Southern plantation systems, one around [the] Chesapeake Bay and the other in the Carolina and Georgia low-country.” To those he adds two other areas where he sees distinct systems, Louisiana and the surrounding area and the Black Belt (U.S. region) saying that "The interplay between diverse peoples (Native Americans, Europeans, and West Africans), soils, climates, larders, and culinary traditions led to the development of distinct cuisines within each slaving system.... those cuisines are still with us as subregional cuisines within southern cooking (see Map 2). The Chesapeake Bay area—where American chattel."
One interesting thing I didn't know is the importance of chickens in West Africa where when chickens arrived they were integrated into their religious systems.  The book looks like an excellent read, I might buy it. Doug Weller talk 08:40, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adrian Dare's book ''Soul Food: The Surprising Story of an American Cuisine, One Plate at a Time'' needs to be used 

message: The current HC section is not written in a coherent order and the content is not in the best state.
*  references a source that deals with perception of health in general, not for soul food. Applying it for soul food is with a  is, as far as I am concerned, OR.
*  No page number, vague "processed" idea, plus how much worse can lard & salted pork get?
** Look, we have a more obvious explanation of "high-calorie food evolved for hard slave labor not great for sedentary people". If we want to talk capitalism, we talk about food deserts, not how processed food is somehow getting worse.
**P.S. fresh vegetables are not getting less nutritious, in case someone wants to bring that up.
**P.P.S. I don't know whether the source directly relates to soul food.
* Collard: having one good thing in a diet does not fix its structural issues. It's like how having whole grains in your breakfast cereal doesn't change the fact that it's sweetened with straight sugar.
* Legumes: probably a valid point, but best to have a source linked to soul food specifically. This one is also a dead link.
What's to be done? Besides fixing the content issues, the ordering needs to be fixed. We should stick to three sub-sections:
* Nutritional content: criticized for sodium & fat etc, plus the reuse of lard; but at the end, mention the pot liquor.
* Nutritional modifications: use the vegetable replacement paragraph, AND write new stuff using 
* Reaction to modification, e.g. the authenticity debate
Artoria2e5 🌉 11:33, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Health concerns / {{vanchor|Dubious}}