Talk:1796 United States presidential election

message: The map used here follows the common procedure of illustrating the southern Federalist Electors along the coast. In North Carolina, Adams won the Fayetteville District, which is inland. The Elector from that district was re-elected in 1800 and cast a second vote for Adams. Chronicler3 13:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  North Carolina electoral college 

message: Just to demonstrate how the ticket pairings were found:
According to the National Archives, here's the state-by-state electoral vote in 1796:
Name of candidate                 	CT	DE	GA	KY	MD	MA	NH	NJ	NY	NC	PA	RI	SC	TN	VT	VA	Total
John Adams, of Massachusetts      	9 	3 	- 	- 	7 	16	6 	7 	12	1 	1 	4 	- 	- 	4 	1 	71
Thomas Jefferson, of Virginia     	- 	- 	4 	4 	4 	- 	- 	- 	- 	11	14	- 	8 	3 	- 	20	68
Thomas Pinckney, of South Carolina	4 	3 	- 	- 	4 	13	- 	7 	12	1 	2 	- 	8 	- 	4 	1 	59
Aaron Burr, of New York           	- 	- 	- 	4 	3 	- 	- 	- 	- 	6 	13	- 	- 	3 	- 	1 	30
Samuel Adams, of Massachusetts    	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	15	15
O. Ellsworth, of Connecticut      	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	1 	6 	- 	- 	- 	- 	4 	- 	- 	- 	- 	11
George Clinton, of New York       	- 	- 	4 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	3 	7
John Jay, of New York             	5 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	5
James Iredell, of North Carolina  	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	3 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	3
John Henry, of Maryland           	- 	- 	- 	- 	2 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	2
S. Johnston, of North Carolina    	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	2 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	2
George Washington, of Virginia    	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	1 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	1 	2
C. C. Pinckney, of South Carolina 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	1 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	1
Total electors                    	9 	3 	4 	4 	10	16	6 	7 	12	12	15	4 	8 	3 	4 	21	138
Now, if we look at Connecticut, we find that there are 9 electors and 9 votes for John Adams.  This means that each elector voted for Adams and one of the other candidates; in this case, there were 4 Adams/Pinckney tickets and 5 Adams/Clinton tickets.  This simple analysis can be applied to all of the states except MD, NC, PA, and VA.  Breaking up all of the other states by ticket, we get:
Name of candidate                 	MD	NC	PA	VA	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Total
John Adams, of Massachusetts      	7 	1 	1 	1 	43          	11          	-           	-           	5           	-           	2           	71
Thomas Jefferson, of Virginia     	4 	11	14	20	-           	-           	8           	7           	-           	4           	-           	68
Thomas Pinckney, of South Carolina	4 	1 	2 	1 	43          	-           	8           	-           	-           	-           	-           	59
Aaron Burr, of New York           	3 	6 	13	1 	-           	-           	-           	7           	-           	-           	-           	30
Samuel Adams, of Massachusetts    	- 	- 	- 	15	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	15
O. Ellsworth, of Connecticut      	- 	- 	- 	- 	-           	11          	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	11
George Clinton, of New York       	- 	- 	- 	3 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	4           	-           	7
John Jay, of New York             	- 	- 	- 	- 	-           	-           	-           	-           	5           	-           	-           	5
James Iredell, of North Carolina  	- 	3 	- 	- 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	3
John Henry, of Maryland           	2 	- 	- 	- 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	2
S. Johnston, of North Carolina    	- 	- 	- 	- 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	2           	2
George Washington, of Virginia    	- 	1 	- 	1 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	2
C. C. Pinckney, of South Carolina 	- 	1 	- 	- 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	1
Total electors                    	10	12	15	21	43          	11          	8           	7           	5           	4           	2           	138
Now then, in Pennsylvania, there are only 15 electors, but Jefferson received 14 votes and Burr received 13, for a total of 27 votes.    If we give 15 of these 27 votes to each elector, that leaves 12 votes which must be the second vote of the elector.  In other words, we know that 12 electors in Pennsylvania voted for a Jefferson/Burr ticket.  A similar analysis allows us to find some additional tickets in MD, NC, PA, and VA:
Name of candidate                 	MD	NC	PA	VA	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Total
John Adams, of Massachusetts      	5 	1 	1 	1 	44          	-           	-           	11          	-           	5           	-           	2           	-           	1           	71
Thomas Jefferson, of Virginia     	3 	4 	1 	4 	-           	24          	14          	-           	9           	-           	6           	-           	2           	1           	68
Thomas Pinckney, of South Carolina	3 	1 	1 	1 	44          	-           	-           	-           	9           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	59
Aaron Burr, of New York           	3 	1 	1 	1 	-           	24          	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	30
Samuel Adams, of Massachusetts    	- 	- 	- 	1 	-           	-           	14          	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	15
O. Ellsworth, of Connecticut      	- 	- 	- 	- 	-           	-           	-           	11          	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	11
George Clinton, of New York       	- 	- 	- 	1 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	6           	-           	-           	-           	7
John Jay, of New York             	- 	- 	- 	- 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	5           	-           	-           	-           	-           	5
James Iredell, of North Carolina  	- 	1 	- 	- 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	2           	-           	3
John Henry, of Maryland           	2 	- 	- 	- 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	2
S. Johnston, of North Carolina    	- 	- 	- 	- 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	2           	-           	-           	2
George Washington, of Virginia    	- 	1 	- 	1 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	2
C. C. Pinckney, of South Carolina 	- 	1 	- 	- 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	1
Total electors                    	8 	5 	2 	5 	44          	24          	14          	11          	9           	5           	6           	2           	2           	1           	138
Now, Chronicler3 told us above that there was an Adams/Pinckney elector in North Carolina, citing .  This leaves 4 electors in North Carolina and 4 votes for Jefferson, so we can derive all of the North Carolina tickets:
Name of candidate                 	MD	PA	VA	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Other States	Total
John Adams, of Massachusetts      	5 	1 	1 	45          	-           	-           	11          	-           	5           	-           	2           	-           	1           	-           	-           	71
Thomas Jefferson, of Virginia     	3 	1 	4 	-           	25          	14          	-           	9           	-           	6           	-           	3           	1           	1           	1           	68
Thomas Pinckney, of South Carolina	3 	1 	1 	45          	-           	-           	-           	9           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	59
Aaron Burr, of New York           	3 	1 	1 	-           	25          	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	30
Samuel Adams, of Massachusetts    	- 	- 	1 	-           	-           	14          	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	15
O. Ellsworth, of Connecticut      	- 	- 	- 	-           	-           	-           	11          	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	11
George Clinton, of New York       	- 	- 	1 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	6           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	7
John Jay, of New York             	- 	- 	- 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	5           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	5
James Iredell, of North Carolina  	- 	- 	- 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	3           	-           	-           	-           	3
John Henry, of Maryland           	2 	- 	- 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	2
S. Johnston, of North Carolina    	- 	- 	- 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	2           	-           	-           	-           	-           	2
George Washington, of Virginia    	- 	- 	1 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	1           	-           	2
C. C. Pinckney, of South Carolina 	- 	- 	- 	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	-           	1           	1
Total electors                    	8 	2 	5 	45          	25          	14          	11          	9           	5           	6           	2           	2           	1           	1           	1           	138
You can almost see now where the minimum and maximum counts come from:  for any ticket, you take the number of electors in that ticket's column under “Other states” as a minimum (or 0 if there is no column), and you add the smaller of the ticket's members in each of the MD, PA, and VA columns to get the maximum.  There's just one catch:  in Virginia, there are 4 votes for Jefferson and 1 vote for Washington, or 5 votes for Virginians.  Constitutionally, no Virginia elector was allowed to vote for two Virginians.  Thus, each Virginia elector voted for one Virginian and one non-Virginian.  Hence, you can only add in the Virginia column if one member of the ticket is a Virginian and one a non-Virginian.
— DLJessup (talk) 04:07, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: this is all speculation and forbidden Original Research WP:OR, with no basis in or citations to any reliable secondary source. (It's also flawed as in Virginia). Rjensen (talk) 10:20, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Derivation of the ticket pairings 

message: Did GW's urge to retire override the requests to stay in, or what?  Given that he was basically unanimous the first two times, it's probably safe to assume that he would have been elected again if he'd run again.
Since it looks like the parties were basically manipulating the vote, I've modified the text to say so explicitly.  If this is incorrect or misleading, then slap my hand and change it back...  --Scott McNay 05:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Why didn't GW run again?

message: In the article, it states that Adams/Jefferson were the only President and Vice-President from different parties. However, Andrew Johnson was a Democrat and Abraham Lincoln a Republican. Although they ran under a different name, I believe they called themselves the Union party, no such party actually existed and history books today list Lincoln as a Republican and Johnson as a Democrat. I hesitate to change the actual page (I could spend my life editing these pages) but perhaps I will do so later if no one else does. 
24.159.34.49 03:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible Correction 

message: It would be nice if the graphic reflected the table, rather than showing that the votes for Adams and Jefferson add up to the "total".  —Tamfang 08:14, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with this sentiment, though it'd be hard to do. Bayad27 (talk) 22:01, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  the myth of only two parties 

message: The map should show that the Connecticut Western Reserve still belonged to Connecticut at the time. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty | Averted crashes 21:25, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Connecticut Western Reserve 

message: The "candidates" section of this article makes a distinction between presidential and vice-presidential candidates from each party. In reality, the Constitution mandated that each elector would cast two votes for president. Thus, there were no candidates for v.p.: Burr, Pinckney, etc. were running for president alongside Jefferson and Adams, with the understanding that one elector would cast their votes for someone else to ensure they were the runner up (who at that time became vice president). I propose a united "candidates" section which properly classifies all of the candidates as "presidential candidates", perhaps with a note explaining the assumed intention of the parties. 
The "candidates" section of this article divides the candidates into presidential and vice-presidential nominees. In reality, there was no such distinction made by the Constitution at the time: electors cast two votes for president, with the runner-up becoming vice president. Thus, the "vice presidential candidates" section is erroneous and confusing, especially considering the article's explanation of the electoral system of the time. 
I propose a united "Candidates" section properly listing all candidates contesting the office of president. Whatever is assumed about the electors' intents (and I should note that there were several Federalist electors intended Pinckney, not Adams, to be elected president, which makes his classification as a vice presidential candidate confusing at best), this is the system of the time and it we need to reflect this in the article. It would probably be a good idea to explain the general historical consensus as to the intent of the two parties, but the layout of the article needs to convey how the president was actually elected, not on assumptions about the intent of people who have been dead for 200 years.
I will wait a few days to see if there are any objections and then make the change. Nathaniel Greene (talk) 17:07, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Change to 'Candidates' Section 

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PresidentialCounty1796.gif
Adams County, Pennsylvania, was created from York County in 1800.  In the map file for the Election of 1796 (and earlier), Adams County should not be a blank space.  It should be merged into York County, to its immediate east.  See the Adams County, Pennsylvania Wikipedia page for confirmation.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.146.231 (talk) 05:25, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change to map: Adams County, Pennsylvania 

message: Do you think it'd be appropriate to insert a blurb or two about the somewhat infamous negative campaigning that took place during this election (wherein Jefferson alleged, in print, that Adams was a hermaphrodite)?--Kooky (talk) 09:23, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Negative campaigning 

message: Could we change the colors of the Electoral map at the to of the poge, as me, and other color-blind people, have problems distinguishing between the colors.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by HeroBobGamer (talk • contribs) 22:43, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Electoral College 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Just Fixed an error  Wtaggart (talk) 08:59, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fixed an error  

message: The map is a nightmare for the colour blind.  I cannot tell the difference between the green and "burnt orange" states.  Can the colours be changed to make this more accessible?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.173.23.62 (talk) 14:38, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map colours 

message: I find it quite bizarre that Wikipedia has actually claimed popular vote figures in presidential elections from before 1824, likely fudged from another website. I have deleted dubious popular vote references from the 1820 and 1816 elections. A request for comment would be very helpful. Classicalfan626 (talk) 23:40, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reliable popular vote figures from before 1824 are not available 

message: The depiction of the border of the part of Massachusetts that is now Maine is incorrectly depicted as the modern border. It is depicted correctly from 1804 onward, gaining its modern shape in 1844 after the Webster-Ashburton Treaty that ended the Aroostook War. I encourage someone who is more skilled and familiar with these maps attempt to fix this. I know it's difficult given the weird borders of the states and territories in these early elections. Discuss the issue here. Mdewman6 (talk) 01:46, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Depiction of Maine in the Electoral Map 

message: I find "Instead of the name of the presidential candidates, voters would see the name of an elector." w/r to the popular vote.  Is the implementation of candidates'-names-on-ballot handled on wikipedia?  Please advise.  (Also, when voters saw the elector name, wax there any case of elector death?).  
Presumably, using candidates' names was in place by 1912.  That year, President Taft and Vice President Sherman ran for re-election (they would lose), and Sherman died on October 30.  Wikipedia says it was too late to replace Sherman on the ballot, and it was announced that Nicholas Butler would get the electoral votes that would have been cast for Sherman.
. Carlm0404 (talk) 20:02, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  What the voters in the popular vote saw 

message: I find "If any two of the three Adams electors in Pennsylvania, Virginia, and North Carolina had voted with the rest of their states, it would have flipped the election."  I don't understand what "the rest of their states" means (notice we here are not seeing here whom the other vote from each of those 3 electors was for).  I do see that flipping 2 of those 3 electoral votes from Adams to Jefferson would have switched Adams to Vice President and Jefferson to President; 70 is seen as the minimum for majority.
As I write this, it occurs to me that we need to say what "Adams" by itself means: John Adams.  This is because Samuel Adams received some electoral votes. Carlm0404 (talk) 20:28, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's the meaning of this? 

message: Looking over the sixteen-year history of this talk page, the popular vote figures for 1796 have been a subject of prolonged debate, and for good reason: the totals for Adams and Jefferson given in the results table do not match any source cited in this article. Two sources are given for the pv data that appears in the results table: Dubin's United States Presidential Elections, 1788-1860 and Lampi's A New Nation Votes. However,  neither  Dubin nor Lampi calculates the nationwide popular vote for 1796, and simply adding up the votes for the most popular Adams and Jefferson electors in each state yields very different figures from those featured in the infobox and in the results table. Somebody has apparently attempted to do this in the "results by state" section, and these numbers are wildly divergent from the national results immediately above. 
The nationwide popular vote for president is notoriously difficult to calculate for elections prior to 1824, but at the very least this article ought to (a) be consistent and (b) cite some source for the pv data it presents. After scouring Google for a few hours, the best I have come up with is votearchive.com, which uses Lampi's research as a basis for calculating the national vote for Adams and Jefferson in this election. Their math shows Jefferson running ahead of Adams by ~500 votes, which is why I bring it up here first, but it does appear that their research is solid and based on the same sources which Wikipedia claims to use for the current (inaccurate) table.
(These are, of course, incomplete figures, and votearchive does not attempt to incorporate surviving pv data from Massachusetts, possibly because the legislature had the final choice of electors in that state — Lampi reports the popular vote in Massachusetts by electoral district, but does not assign party labels to the candidates. Since Adams won the electoral vote of Massachusetts, whether or not you include those votes obviously has an impact on the national total.) 
I wanted to put this here in case anyone knows of any other sources dealing with the popular vote in 1796, or if Lampi and the folks at Votearchive.com are the best we have, but if no-one else has anything to add I would recommend updating this article to reflect the publicly available scholarship on this topic. Nathaniel Greene (talk) 22:29, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources for the popular vote in 1796 

message: Faithless_elector#1788_to_1800:_Before_the_12th_Amendment mentions Samuel Miles of Pennsylvania, who voted for Jefferson instead of Adams, and says that 18 electors voted for Adams as pledged, but refused to vote for Pinckney. I count 5 from Connecticut, 2 from Maryland, 3 from Massachusetts. I suggest that the Faithless Electors article should also mention the Maryland elector who voted for both Adams and Jefferson. Do we even know whether that elector was pledged to vote for Adams and Pinckney or for Jefferson and Burr? Given that John Henry was a Federalist, I suggest that it is more likely than not that 6 electors were pledged to Adams and Pinckney, that 2 of them voted for Henry rather than Pinckney, that 4 electors were pledged for Jefferson and Burr, and that one of them voted for Adams rather than Burr. But I realise that that is speculation and Original Research. Should it also mention the 4 Georgia electors who voted for George Clinton rather than Burr, the 5 North Carolina electors who voted for a combination of James Iredell, George Washington and Charles Cotesworth Pinckney rather than Burr, the 8 South Carolina electors who voted for Pinckney rather than Burr and the 19 Virginia electors who voted for a combination of Samuel Adams, George Clinton and George Washington rather than Burr? Alekksandr (talk) 18:55, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now done some more research as appears at List_of_1796_United_States_presidential_electors#Maryland. 7 electors were pledged to Adams and Pinckney and 3 electors were pledged to Jefferson and Burr. To answer the questions that I asked above, (1) It is known that the election produced seven Federalist electors and three Democratic-Republican electors. (2) It is known on which ticket the ten men listed at List_of_1796_United_States_presidential_electors#Maryland were elected. (3) John Done evolved from being an Anti-Administration congressional candidate in 1789 to being a Federalist elector in 1796.Alekksandr (talk) 15:16, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Faithless electors

message: It seems inaccurate to have Pinckney and Burr as running mates in the infobox, since there was no such thing as a President-Vice President ticket yet. Should we remove this attribute from the infobox? BoleroGoleador (talk) 02:56, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Running mate in the infobox