Talk:Kimi Räikkönen

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I have just modified 2 external links on Kimi Räikkönen. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070930043310/http://www.sportinglife.com/formula1/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=formula1%2F06%2F05%2F19%2Fmanual_140547.html to http://www.sportinglife.com/formula1/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=formula1%2F06%2F05%2F19%2Fmanual_140547.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140816054221/http://www.seiska.fi/_content/Kimi-R%C3%A4ikk%C3%B6nen-and-Jenni-Dahlman-R%C3%A4ikk%C3%B6nen-confirm%3A-%22Separation-is-a-sad-fact%22/550458 to http://www.seiska.fi/_content/Kimi-R%25C3%25A4ikk%25C3%25B6nen-and-Jenni-Dahlman-R%25C3%25A4ikk%25C3%25B6nen-confirm%253A-%2522Separation-is-a-sad-fact%2522/550458
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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 16:34, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Yeap, that's it.--CaptainNtheGameMaster (talk) 06:57, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Talk page archived

message: Is there a reason why this section is bulleted and other former World Champions have a table. I have also noticed some trivia in that section like most fastest laps at a particular circuit, winning on his Ferrari debut and getting a landmark Ferrari manufacturer podium. Mobile mundo (talk) 13:57, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not aware of any reason why this section is bulleted rather than being a table. I would have no objection to you converting it to a table and/or removing some of the trivia. DH85868993 (talk) 12:32, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Records and achievements 

message: your edit summary says: "This is more or less a BLP violation, without any source saying he has retired from racing as a whole,". I have the exact opposite opinion. Removing the word former means he is a current racing driver, which is an unsourced claim. As far am I am concerned, if someone is not actively racing, then they are a former racing driver. Because Raikkonen doesn't have to officially announce a retirement from racing, this stance of yours effectiely leads to a situation where we imply that Raikkonen is still active in his 70s.  SSSB (talk) 13:03, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we can apply common sense here, Kimi is not in his 70's and he retired from Formula One just a few months ago. I don't see why we need to rush in calling him ″former″ implying he has completely retired from motorsport when we have no indiciation that is the case. Say we write former and he participates in a race event, rally in Finland just as an example, should we just alternate between removing and adding former until he like you said, is in his 70's and clearly retired? Just wait until it's clear, there's isn't any rush. --TylerBurden (talk) 13:11, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Former doesn't mean he has retired. It just means he was racing and isn't any more. Which is true. That being said, I see your point, and agree that maybe we should wait a couple of years before declaring him as a former driver.  SSSB (talk) 13:20, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that is sensible, it would of course be a different situation if he had gone years without any racing. But as of now his exit from Formula One is still fresh and I think it's fair to take some time given he has a family and such as well after an intense racing schedule for years. I think it's best to leave out until either it comes out he has no plans to continue racing at all or more time passes. --TylerBurden (talk) 13:34, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Former racing driver? 

message: An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect :Paula Räikkönen and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at  until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  signed, Rosguill talk 02:40, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Paula Räikkönen" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: Why is Sebastian Vettel linked so much in this article? I've counted up to thrice in a single paragraph and I don't think any of them are useful at helping the reader's understanding of certain parts of the text as it normally is quite obvious who he is, even to someone that doesn't watch the sport after not long reading. If anyone can tell me whether these are actually needed or not, I would appreciate it. I just don't understand why it's linked so much. Thanks. TVKR (talk) 19:55, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @TVKR Probably just editorial oversight, quite a few editors seem to not check if there are other links before adding new ones, or they are just not aware of the manual of style. Though MOS:LINKING was recently altered to be more lenient with the amount of links on articles, the amount of Vettel links are probably overkill here. I will remove some. TylerBurden (talk) 14:17, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @TylerBurden thanks, appreciated TVKR (talk) 13:47, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overlinking of Sebastian Vettel 

message: Please do not edit-war to remove tags without addressing the issues they identify. As noted, this article is too long and would benefit from being condensed or split. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:17, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is it too long? How come you are the only one who seems to think so? Should we split each Formula One season into seperate articles? The article is detailed, since clearly people have put in a lot of work into it, but it still appears well structured enough to be easily navigable. Something that isn't improved by adding a drive-by tag to the top of it. TylerBurden (talk) 02:21, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It is too long because it is over 15 thousand words of readable prose and is extremely detailed; see WP:AS and WP:SS. Removing the tag simply makes that problem harder to address - it obscures it without solving it. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:28, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: So it is your personal opinion that it is too long, and you think drive-by tagging it will solve it? Sorry but I disagree, both with the length and your solution. If you can't identify any specific issues other than a vague "it is too long because this generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply guideline says so" then I don't think cluttering the article with a tag is productive. TylerBurden (talk) 03:21, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It is your personal opinion it is not too long. The difference is that the applicable guidelines support the assessment that it is too long, and additionally as a GA it is expected to adhere to the GA criteria which include those guidelines. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:28, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: And you still haven't identified any specific issues, or offered any solutions on how to solve them other than add a tag that makes it even more "difficult to navigate" for readers. A 20+ year career in notable high level motorsports means the article needs to be a certain length in order to cover the subject. This isn't the only article you have tagged either, you have tagged numerous countries and even History of Europe (the latter in which you actually did work to solve the alleged problem at least). Isn't it pretty common sense that the bigger the topic, the more article length is needed? Perhaps sometimes blindly following style guidelines isn't the best solution for every article. As for GA, I couldn't really care less about it, reassess all you want. That would probably end up in some actual improvement rather than a drive-by tag. TylerBurden (talk) 03:38, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  might be a convincing argument for something like History of Europe - not an article like this. The length here results not from need but from exceedingly detailed descriptions of individual races. Converting those to a high-level summary would be a great place to start, and would also help to cut down on the massive amount of unsourced material here. But if you're unwilling or unable to help with that, then leave the tag so someone who is can find it, rather than simply seeking to paper over the problem. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:51, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: So it seems clear you have some minimalist approach to Wikipedia content, that's how you feel and I have a right to disagree with you. I see no reason to "leave a tag" that ironically clutters the article more while complaining about the article being hard to read, that no one is going to actually deal with, probably because they don't agree. One editor's strong feelings on cutting content on articles shouldn't mean readers across numerous articles are greeted by an obstructive tag, which does exactly what it is complaining about. It is not an urgent issue, if it is an issue at all, unlike for example bigger issues that might warrant such tags. This whole thing is petty and unnecessary. TylerBurden (talk) 05:05, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

text: I tend to agree with  here. Overly long, excessively detailed articles which do not suit our broad audience are a common problem among WP:WikiProject Motorsport. This is an issue which has also come up at Talk:McLaren recently. I believe it is time to take this discussion beyond article-level, possibly at WP:Village pump. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  05:35, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Could be, anyway I appreciate @Nikkimaria recognizing a specific issue and doing some work to reduce the overly detailed and sometimes unsourced race details, rather than simply leaving the tag. TylerBurden (talk) 07:02, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Length