Talk:List of Slovenes

message: With all respect, this page contains many entries that show a lack of objectivity by the contributor of those particular items, and, indeed, show remarkable political bias and subjectivity.  
Chiefly, as should be apparent by recent and past edits from observers (including myself), are the entries that are political in nature and controversial.
For example, under the header "National Heroes" are names that, as best I can tell, are mostly, if not all, historical Slovenian communists. These names(people) operated within the former Yugoslav federation that existed with Slovenia in its composition from 1945 until 1991 (when Slovenia seceded from the communist federation).
Though these names are Slovenian in heritage they are not considered de facto heroes by any consensus within the present-day independant Slovenia.  Many, however, were seen as heroes under the former communist government in Belgrade, Serbia, the seat of the Yugoslav federation, and within Slovenia but again, not by consensus but rather within the Slovenian communist sphere.
It is my opinion that this page needs revision toward objectivity.  As another example, if I were to fill in some historical data for those listed under "National Heroes" over a dozen that I recognize presently would have "Slovenian communist" as a political affiliation in the description.  I am not sure that all listed under "National Heroes" are not former Slovenian communists.  If this is fact, then it is an inaccurate depiction of who present-day Slovenian society sees as its "heroes".  It is, however, most probable that it would be an accurate depiction of who the heroes are/were in the former Slovenian communist sphere.
--LightningHop 01:38, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: LightningHop's comment of 12 March 2004

message: The list as it was/is was provided by me and since I do not have the official list of national heroes some inaccuracies may still be present but mainly the list contains persons which were declared heroes not just by former Yugoslav government but also by Slovene nation itself. I didn't put on the list persons which were solely Slovene communusts, but I just gave information from several external sources. These kind of twisting words all around can't bring much constructive. If you believe and truly know that some person do not belong to the list you can correct it, but if a person was a communist, why can't he also be a national hero? Do you want perhaps Nazis to be national heroes or what during (as you've said) Yugoslav civil war? Many in the list gave their lives for our present and future, so, please, show also some respect. And do not simply lean on anti-communist elements all over. Allied forces during World War II were not anti-communist but anti-Nazi. --XJamRastafire 04:51, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not expressing unobjective POV. Soon or later your editings will be stoped by other Wikipedians if you are not able to listen to others in this way. I shall not discuss further on herein about this object, until people throw away their presumptuousness. I was warned by other wikipedians that someone is vandalizing this article, so you should consider this. And finally, show some respect. --XJamRastafire 17:02, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  National heroes 

message: Please do not mark others way of writting. If you do not like my way of responding, do not blame me - everything is pretty much visible. My knowledge of English is not perfect so I won't read and bother about all those your blind man's buffs words... (if I wrote correctly). The WW2 in Slovenia lasted between two precise dates (1941 to 1945). The correct number of slaughters was not 12,000 but around 9,000. But NOV fighters had 16,000 victims (of total number of fighters 37,901). And further on, 9,000 died in concentration camps (many of them were announced to Nazis by anti-partisan's forces), 1,600 died because of bombing, 5,000 Slovenes died which were mobilized in German Army, 19,600 killed by shooting as hostages. We must count also 71,000 exiles to Germany, Serbia and to Croatia (of planned 220,000 to 260,000), 8,000 exiles because of reprisals, 35,000 on forced labour, 35,000 mobilized to German Army, 35,000 arrested, 29,000 in concentration camps. All together 10% of the populations - the highest number during the WW2 in Europe! 
You went off topic. Once the true responsible persons for post war activities shall be found, they will be characterized as criminals - but - you can't blame all the partisans - which were the only true free fighters in Slovenia in this terrible war - for what had happened. Blame who whatever you want, but in god's sake do not blame Slovene partisans for that, man. I'll never except anyone's claiming of civil war at that times. Sorry. What does it mean to receive backing by Nazis - the synonim for collaborating, not my opinion - but pure fact. 
:However, these forces were not begun initially by the Nazis but began in response to the cruelty that was perpetrated upon innocent people in small villages throughout Slovenia by the partisans. It is documented that the partisans began their terror campaign and revolution prior to the Italian and German occupation.
Really? How can you imagine that? Germans burnt the village of Upper Carniola Dražgoše to ground (and many more), just because partisans fought against them. This fight was unfair, they killed 10 or even more civilians just for one German soldier. How can you kill civilians because their people is fighting against you? Nobody does this. Where do you see so called partisan's terror? Fight against the enemy is a terror against you own nation?
And about Kočevski Rog, Teharje and all that. If I have decided wrongly at that time and fought against my own nation, I would not expect no mercy, but this is not the issue here. You can also recall sveti Urh and many more places, if you are brave enough. I can hardly. I can not talk this with my father who was there and now has enough blood for the whole of his life. What do you expect me to do? I was raised wrong - my father never told me almost anything - just a few things from this time, that he was nearly killed two times and that he read about his own death in a newspaper, published in Ljubljana. Leave these wounds in peace and do not quarrel what is non-partisan and objective and what is not - please. Just correct what do you have to and do not teach others how to live, feel and think.
Why are you all the bloody time attacking persons like Josip Broz Tito. Why not Sir Bernard Law Montgomery, 1st Viscount Montgomery of Alamein who also fought against Nazis in Northern Africa and all around? They were both Field Marshals as I recall. Monty was soldier, so Tito was too. And show some respect and do not give just  flowery phrases...
And finally BTW your designation of Slovene partisans is wrong. They were not just partisans, they were called NOV and POS (Narodnoosvobodilna vojska in partizanski odredi Slovenije, National Liberation Army and Partisan's Detachments of Slovenia) - and they were predecessors of later Slovenska teritorialna obramba (Slovene Territorial Defence) and nowaday Slovenska vojska (Slovene Army). I do not know your nationality, but the small nations also can have regular armies. Everything that I was talking is also well documented, but as you've said probaly not in Chicago, or elsewhere outside of Slovenia. I'm not surprised. I am Slovene, and I am proud of that. Really proud. Do not blame me for the mass graves inhere, do not blame freedom fighters for that - blame all those who were really responsible for - perhaps Yugoslav millitary authorities (perhaps only few Slovenes knew for what has happened after the war). And why do you think British Army refused fugitives in Carinthia and left them to Yugoslav Army? The war was finished, so this problem could be solved in more human way, because they surely could expect that many revenge will be present. How many German soldiers (and among them thousands of Slovene youngsters from Styria) did come back from Soviet Union in 1950s? The Discovery Channel has the numbers, I just recall that the number was very low. But the price of »communist« Soviet Union is measured in millions, exactly 9,000,000 soldiers and 11,000,000 civilians! And do not speak me about civilian wars, I know I can count well.
I see this debate is thoughtless, so I shall slowly finish down. --XJamRastafire 07:31, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  NOB 

message: Well discussing the aspects of your contribution from its political base is futile. Let me see if I can clarify again my contention with this "List of Slovenians" page. The real issues here are the neutrality of the designations for individuals as national heroes and national traitors as well as its official legitimacy. One, I don't see these types of designations anywhere else in Wikipedia hence they smack of partisanship and non-neutrality. It is my contention that those people listed should be under other designations such as "politicians" and "military men and women" as is the case in other similar Wikipedia works. The descriptions should be without the inflamatory, politcally biased language and wording. In other words, non-partisan descriptions should prevail. (Respectfully, I assume you understand the english terms "partisanship" and "non-partisan" completely, correct?) Second, my basis for the stance on legitamacy is the fact that this list of people described and designated as heroes and traitors was conceived by a country and government that no longer exists.  It is my contention that the present Slovenian republic does not recognize this list as it exists here and is therefore an arbitrary, subjective contribution and not a true reflection of the sentiments within present Slovenian society or government.
I do know that some of these fellows were listed by the former communist Yugoslav government as they are (pre-1991) when Slovenia was not an independant democratic state. But, now that Slovenia is an independant parliamentary democratic republic this list and contribution and its neutrality is questionable and dubious since it was conceived under the hegemony of a government that no longer exists. You rationalize your inclusion but offer no irrefutable proof as to whether the present day Slovenian government officially lists these people as national heroes and national traitors. Like I said, I know the previous communist government officially did but that government and country (Yugoslavia) no longer exists. Therefore the list is invalid unless the present day Slovenian government officially recongnises it. So does the current democratic Republic of Slovenia list these particular individuals as heroes and traitors of Slovenia this very day, xjamrastafire? All you have to do is prove it. If you say you don't have to prove it or can't for whatever reason then that contribution I contend is hearsay, false, arbitrary, illegitimate and that the designations national heroes and traitor must be dropped and changed to something else since they are not verified as nationally recognized designations. You've claimed that everything you say is well documented. Well provide some documention on whether these people that you list as traitors and heroes are recognized as such by the present day Slovenian democratic republic. Not the Slovenian government before 1991 but the Slovenian government after 1991. The one that exists today. Not the one that no longer exists and came up with the list. 
Also, you said this; "Everything that I was talking is also well documented, but as you've said probaly not in Chicago, or elsewhere outside of Slovenia."  That is not what I said at all.  In fact I stated the exact opposite.  Perhaps you should read more carefully and cease misrepresenting the truth as you have done now many times.
--LightningHop 03:11, Mar 21, 2004 (UTC)
=== Response to the Issue with List of Slovenes ===
Well, all right. I admit my grammatical error. I wanted to say "everything that I was talking is also well documented, but as you've said not withing Slovene cities but probably better in Chicago or elsewhere outside of Slovenia". Are you satisfied now? I have already said twice that I do not have the proper list (whatever might be) and you are free to go and delete or add persons which should be on the list. But you can't designate the WW2 on the territory of Slovenia (the NOB) with civil war - as you have tried, I guess also twice. (If we count 9.000 wictims of anti-partisan forces on one side and if we sum up wictims on the other side - 51.200 - how (even just mathematically) this can be designated as civil war?!). You have no right to distort the history! Why is so important that Slovene government which took place after 1991 is the only one which is suitable for recognitions of every sort? The regular government also took place during the war - please read when first Slovene governement was established. You can't also say that pre 1991 Slovene government was not legal. You just put everything in the communist area. You also think that present government of Slovenia is the best of them all. It is just a government which is as legal as the first postwar Slovene government established at the Bratina hall in Ajdovščina on May 5 1945 - four days before actual war ended in Slovenia. For instance Franc Rozman Stane was well known partisan commandant and you designated him to be commandant in a civil war. Why is that so? If you have data that, for instance, Maček Matija was a war criminal - you can state that. See what is an issue here or not? I do not know why there are no national heroes or national traitors listed on other nation lists. What about a term war criminal? How about these persons:
* Josef Mengele,
* Adolf Eichmann - convicted on all counts, Eichmann was sentenced to death (the only civil death penalty ever carried out in Israel) on December 2, 1961 and was hanged on May 31, 1962 at Ramleh prison. (Is this NPOV designation?) - I've put the same to Leon Rupnik - he was also convicted and sentenced to death by shooting in 1946 (by legal Slovene government as Eichmann was by legal Israeli one).
* Slobodan Milošević  - not yet recognised as war criminal...
* Tojo Hideki, ...
* ...
The list I've made is not meant to extol so called communist area, but to distinguish between some non-human persons within the nation itself. What is wrong with this? This is not POV? The Wikipedia should follow the same step. Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini are well known persons - but Leon Rupnik, which falls to the 'same category' is not. That's why he appeared in this list. The same with Franc Frakelj. As I've said I am proud that I am Slovene - but should I be proud because of these persons or because of so many other which really deserve to be respected - IN ALL TIMES... I am proud of a nation, but I known it is not better than any other nation. It has its own darkd side (and this list should mirror this fact), although it is well known that the nation alone is a peaceful one. I guess Germans or (Austrians) can't be proud because of Hitler, but because of Carl Friedrich Gauss and such persons. Do you see the difference now or still not? Now Rudolf Maister is also recognized as a respectable Slovene, and what is well known he was not recognized so before 1940, since he was not fond of prewar communists - as it is said. He did good to the nation, so he is on the list. --XJamRastafire 14:38, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Issue with List of Slovenians 

message: Well, all right. I admit my grammatical error. I wanted to say "everything that I was talking is also well documented, but as you've said not withing Slovene cities but probably better in Chicago or elsewhere outside of Slovenia". Are you satisfied now? I have already said twice that I do not have the proper list (whatever might be) and you are free to go and delete or add persons which should be on the list. But you can't designate the WW2 on the territory of Slovenia (the NOB) with civil war - as you have tried, I guess also twice. (If we count 9.000 wictims of anti-partisan forces on one side and if we sum up wictims on the other side - 51.200 - how (even just mathematically) this can be designated as civil war?!). You have no right to distort the history! Why is so important that Slovene government which took place after 1991 is the only one which is suitable for recognitions of every sort? The regular government also took place during the war - please read when first Slovene governement was established. You can't also say that pre 1991 Slovene government was not legal. You just put everything in the communist area. You also think that present government of Slovenia is the best of them all. It is just a government which is as legal as the first postwar Slovene government established at the Bratina hall in Ajdovščina on May 5 1945 - four days before actual war ended in Slovenia. For instance Franc Rozman Stane was well known partisan commandant and you designated him to be commandant in a civil war. Why is that so? If you have data that, for instance, Maček Matija was a war criminal - you can state that. See what is an issue here or not? I do not know why there are no national heroes or national traitors listed on other nation lists. What about a term war criminal? How about these persons:
* Josef Mengele,
* Adolf Eichmann - convicted on all counts, Eichmann was sentenced to death (the only civil death penalty ever carried out in Israel) on December 2, 1961 and was hanged on May 31, 1962 at Ramleh prison. (Is this NPOV designation?) - I've put the same to Leon Rupnik - he was also convicted and sentenced to death by shooting in 1946 (by legal Slovene government as Eichmann was by legal Israeli one).
* Slobodan Milošević  - not yet recognised as war criminal...
* Tojo Hideki, ...
* ...
The list I've made is not meant to extol so called communist area, but to distinguish between some non-human persons within the nation itself. What is wrong with this? This is not POV? The Wikipedia should follow the same step. Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini are well known persons - but Leon Rupnik, which falls to the 'same category' is not. That's why he appeared in this list. The same with Franc Frakelj. As I've said I am proud that I am Slovene - but should I be proud because of these persons or because of so many other which really deserve to be respected - IN ALL TIMES... I am proud of a nation, but I known it is not better than any other nation. It has its own darkd side (and this list should mirror this fact), although it is well known that the nation alone is a peaceful one. I guess Germans or (Austrians) can't be proud because of Hitler, but because of Carl Friedrich Gauss and such persons. Do you see the difference now or still not? Now Rudolf Maister is also recognized as a respectable Slovene, and what is well known he was not recognized so before 1940, since he was not fond of prewar communists - as it is said. He did good to the nation, so he is on the list. --XJamRastafire 14:38, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response to the Issue with List of Slovenes 

message: First, I don't currently want to delete or add anyone to or from your list. What I see as inaccurate is the section titled "National Heroes". And the other section currently titled "National Traitors" should stay off. Those section titles imply that all people that are listed and described are somehow then a part of a sanctioned national statement which is not accurate. Once the title is changed the people listed should stay but the designations and descriptions should be revised to reflect impartiality. I object to the inclusion of the designation "heroes". It is a subjective description on your part and should not be used. Only objective historical descriptions of their respective roles during the conflict should be used. I don't object to terms such as partisan or NOB or National Liberation Army or whatever but it should be noted that they were communist led. I do object to terms such as collaborationist, etc., since these are era terminology used by the opposing faction. However, in place of collaborationist could be a description stating that these anti-communist/partisan forces did receive fascist/nazi backing amongst others. 
Secondly, I am not distorting history when I say that a civil war occurred within Yugoslavia/Slovenia during WW2. And I think the term should be used within the context of the fighting. Cited here are several independant sources that back up my stand: 
"There were two main resistance groups: the chetniks under Mihajlović and an army under the Communist Tito. In 1943 civil war broke out between the two factions, of which the second was more uncompromising in its opposition to the Axis." http://www.slider.com/enc/57000/Yugoslavia_History.htm 
"The stage was set for a civil war." http://www.geocities.com/kumbayaaa/nationalcouncilforslovenia.html 
"So the lands of the dismembered Yugoslav state became not only the scene of Europe's greatest resistance struggle, but also one of its bloodiest civil wars." http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/yugmodww2g.html 
"...Partisans or ‘Domobranci’ (the home guard accused of collaboration with the Nazis) into the grave. During the Second World War Slovenes in these two groups effectively fought a civil war." http://www.sloveniatimes.com/kontent.php?topic=2 
Please, then, xjamrastafire, disprove that a civil war occurred. Cite some independant sources to back up your assertion. I can come up with more sources that assess and state that not only was there a war of occupation and liberation going on within Yugoslavia during WW2 but a civil war as well. 
From the U.S. Library of Congress' Federal Research Division: "World War II claimed 1.7 million Yugoslav lives,...About one million of those were killed by other Yugoslavs." http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+yu0031). 
Please read what constitutes a civil war, xjamrastafire. If 1 million Yugoslavs died at the hands of other Yugoslavs and that isn't the result of a civil war then I guess no one knows what a civil war really is. 
You say, "The list I've made is not meant to extol so called communist area, but to distinguish between some non-human persons." This statement alone displays POV and opinion even though you claim otherwise, and, as I've said in a previous post, you show partiality and prepossession. 
So, the problem isn't with the people listed. The problem is how they are listed. How they are designated and described. The problem is also the terms 'heroes' and 'traitors', etc., which should be eliminated and replaced as I've said previously.   --LightningHop 22:33, Mar 25, 2004 (UTC)
=== Reply ===
Yes, you could also simply say that you shall add or delete some persons from the list or put your arguments in this talk page instead that you are trying to denigrate others contributions. This will be just fine - but you have to go or  try to foist the idea of civil war during the WW2 (specially on the Slovene ethnical territory). That is why I shall reply in a short manner - if you allow me.
I have checked URLs you gave, but I must say that they are full of lies, half truths and pickings. Try to read one serious historical book about this subject. (This is also valid for me :--) I also doubt that these are really independant sources, as you've said. They are bunch of mixtures of everything (and perhaps of nothing). 
About civil war. I gave you correct approximate numbers about victims on Slovene territory - I can't see why are you giving now numbers within Yugoslav borders. 1 million Yugoslavs killed by other Yugoslavs - I have to check this number, but as I've said I am talking about Slovene NOB. (In fact the same thing is with Yugoslavia, too - and I am not the one who shall defend or intercede National liberation fight against designations ala Civil war). I was talking about numbers in Slovenia (51.200 towards 9.000)!
In recent times many attempts were made to discredit the NOB and to speak in favour of national collaborators (or those who were under command of occupiers) - but I won't go into the details.
My sentence:
: The list I've made is not meant to extol so called communist area, but to distinguish between some non-human persons.
speaks for itself and it does not display POV. We can find many persons designated as national heroes listed all around here in Wikipedia. If you do not like this list itself, you can simply change it (as I've said) and do not fall into long debates or to teach others what to do or even what to think. What I've done (and you are saying I am biased) is, that I have just collected persons who were designated national heroes in several sites. You can also do the same with such persons in Wikipedia - but you said we do not need such lists. I won't argue - but on the other side after all we also do not need lists at all. The same with persons who have commited war crimes (soldiers, leaders, politicians, (national traitors), painters, ...). I do not want to have the last word and I'll say no more (I shall reply just in that case if you will perhaps again say something that is not true or that it insinuates on something). If you want to change anything, just give your arguments here and others shall say theirs - and please don't debate into far distance for no reason. And finally we can talk about Ivana Kobilca in the same manner as for many other persons. --XJamRastafire 12:21, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reply and Issues 

message: Yes, you could also simply say that you shall add or delete some persons from the list or put your arguments in this talk page instead that you are trying to denigrate others contributions. This will be just fine - but you have to go or  try to foist the idea of civil war during the WW2 (specially on the Slovene ethnical territory). That is why I shall reply in a short manner - if you allow me.
I have checked URLs you gave, but I must say that they are full of lies, half truths and pickings. Try to read one serious historical book about this subject. (This is also valid for me :--) I also doubt that these are really independant sources, as you've said. They are bunch of mixtures of everything (and perhaps of nothing). 
About civil war. I gave you correct approximate numbers about victims on Slovene territory - I can't see why are you giving now numbers within Yugoslav borders. 1 million Yugoslavs killed by other Yugoslavs - I have to check this number, but as I've said I am talking about Slovene NOB. (In fact the same thing is with Yugoslavia, too - and I am not the one who shall defend or intercede National liberation fight against designations ala Civil war). I was talking about numbers in Slovenia (51.200 towards 9.000)!
In recent times many attempts were made to discredit the NOB and to speak in favour of national collaborators (or those who were under command of occupiers) - but I won't go into the details.
My sentence:
: The list I've made is not meant to extol so called communist area, but to distinguish between some non-human persons.
speaks for itself and it does not display POV. We can find many persons designated as national heroes listed all around here in Wikipedia. If you do not like this list itself, you can simply change it (as I've said) and do not fall into long debates or to teach others what to do or even what to think. What I've done (and you are saying I am biased) is, that I have just collected persons who were designated national heroes in several sites. You can also do the same with such persons in Wikipedia - but you said we do not need such lists. I won't argue - but on the other side after all we also do not need lists at all. The same with persons who have commited war crimes (soldiers, leaders, politicians, (national traitors), painters, ...). I do not want to have the last word and I'll say no more (I shall reply just in that case if you will perhaps again say something that is not true or that it insinuates on something). If you want to change anything, just give your arguments here and others shall say theirs - and please don't debate into far distance for no reason. And finally we can talk about Ivana Kobilca in the same manner as for many other persons. --XJamRastafire 12:21, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reply 

message: The term patriot is inappropriate and therefore unacceptable.  Who constitutes a patriot or who should be included under the titled heading "patriots" simply is a point of view.  For example, you then would not mind if Leon Rupnik is then included as a patriot if someone viewed Rupnik as a Slovene patriot who was against communism and fought with all means against communism, correct, or, wrong?  Please no polemics which include figures, opinions, etc.
--LightningHop 11:30, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)
=== What then? ===
What then should be in? I really do not know now - if ever I'll know at all. This mumbo-jumbo of what is right and what is wrong, what is polemic and what is not... 
National heroes are not right. No respect for them.
National traitors are not right too. They are just wicked people.
Patriots never existed. Fredom was never achieved. Ras Tafari was never the Conquering Lion of Judah. Spare me - will you. Rise Up Freeman, Rise Up - so we Rise Up from these little highlands - Italians invaded Ethiopia - so he send soldiers. Italians and Germans invaded Slovenia so he ---. --XJamRastafire 22:12, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Term patriots is inappropriate 

message: What then should be in? I really do not know now - if ever I'll know at all. This mumbo-jumbo of what is right and what is wrong, what is polemic and what is not... 
National heroes are not right. No respect for them.
National traitors are not right too. They are just wicked people.
Patriots never existed. Fredom was never achieved. Ras Tafari was never the Conquering Lion of Judah. Spare me - will you. Rise Up Freeman, Rise Up - so we Rise Up from these little highlands - Italians invaded Ethiopia - so he send soldiers. Italians and Germans invaded Slovenia so he ---. --XJamRastafire 22:12, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  What then? 

message: Mumbo-jumbo, schmumbo-jumbo.  You seem sore that someone is calling you on this contribution of yours, rasta man (corrected this unproper offensive designation to Jani by XJamRastafire 14:21, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Domoljubje ni isto kot nacionalizem in ni škodljivo! (Patriotism is not the same as nationalism and it is not harmful!) --Boris Pahor, Slovene author from Trieste, survivor of concentration camp in French Vosges. --XJamRastafire 01:07, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Then? 

message: Addressing you with "rasta man Melik" was simply a play on words based on your frequent rasta references and quotes, your rasta-inspired user name and your real name.  You apparently admire things Rastafarian, you are a man, and, you are a Melik.  Hence, no derogatory offense toward you on my part was intended.  If you truely feel offended by my addressing you as such then I apologize.  I won't address you similarily again. What about it is offensive to you I can't determine.
Regarding Pahor, I will apologize for calling him an idiot.  That was inappropriate and unnecessary.  However, he is fully wrong in my opinion.  Patriotism can be like blind faith and lead to many social aberrations and injustices.  Who is a patriot to one can be a traitor to another.  Patriotism is not a proper and equal substitute for an actual sense of moral or ethical rectitude inherent within an individual.
You say, "According to your words I can say that you just seek to say so many bad things about Slovenes."  Can you show, XJamrastafire, where I've said "bad things about Slovenes"?  You confuse or equate my critique or criticism of your contribution and of Slovenian partisans/communists as a criticism of Slovenia and Slovenes in general. That is your error.  I hold Slovenia and Slovenes with highest regard and know many Slovenes as friends.
You say, "You're also damaging this article".  How so?  Please elaborate.
You say, "I advise you that you better leave me alone in my errors, and that you erase your fantasy.".  What, precisely, do you mean to say by this?  Are you threatening me with censor somehow?  I understand that you are now an administrator but I hope you do not abuse your authority, XJamrastafire.  Do you think your biased, partial contributions here are not to be contested?  Are you intimating that you are above criticism, correction and dialectic on your contributions?  And "fantasy"?  What "fantasy" do you think I have?   You're the one referencing Star Trek not I.  I have no "fantasy" nor illusions concerning this serious discussion, contribution and article about Slovenia and Slovenes.
--LightningHop 06:22, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)
=== Reply to LightningHop about Civil War in Slovenia during WW2 ===
: I accept your apology about adressing me in such a way. Okay. By saying that your adressing was offensive towards me I guess it is just a personal view. But on the other hand - why you call me after my surname, and not for example after my first name...? I do believe that you did not mean to insult me - and I've never said I am somekind of rastafarian (but in fact perhaps I am - but who cares...). You just have concluded that I admire many things from this. It is my personal thing what I do believe, and I do act according to this, so I do not want to press down on anyone.
: Bad things about Slovenes. I've already said it several times that you try to show how a civil war was going on during WW2 in Slovenia. Recently a third Slovene Partisan general,  Lado Ambrožič Novljan passed away. In his short TV biography he said and affirmed that there was no civil war, so this is your invention and I can not stand it. Who shall I believe - one who does not respect nation's struggle or one true fighter? For sure I have to deal with all kind of constructive criticism about the subject - but you try to represent me as a biased contributor. Why do you have to criticize Slovene partisans after all? They were also Slovenes and I do not see nothing wrong with their struggle for freedom. Novljan also said that in Primorje (a littoral region of Slovenia) there were no collaboration of any kind. The struggle embraced all levels of Slovene population in this area. Also in Styria there were no collaboration. 30.000 (35.000) young Slovenes from Styria were brought to German Army under constraint (of which 5.000 have died in battlefields). Anti-communist fight (your designation - not mine) was held just in a central part of Slovenia. For units see above. And tell to your Slovene friends what you think about so called civil war. I wonder what they have to say about this. »...erase your fantasy« is from Robert Nesta »Bob« Marley's song Stiff Necked Fools. You can read the lyrics and you can tell me what Bob meant by 'fantasy'. With Star Trek I have just explained in which way I have used a term 'old man' - not to say that you have a fantasy. I am not threatening you in no way. I just try to discuss this serious subject. That's all. I hope we do understand. And finally, you didn't have to call me Mr. Jani, or my nick is just fine...
: Damaging the article. I try to be constructive, but in this way I can not go further on. How can I? What do I have to deny, what do I have to believe? To my nation's true history, or to modern fashions of all kinds? How about you? Stop accusing me all the time, and write something down that will be adequate and try to help such contributors as I am. How can you go over the facts and numbers I gave you about NOB? It is true, yes, that patriotism can be traitorousness in many cases, but not in all ones. Slovene patriotism, Irish patriotism, ... they do exist and they have existed through history. Adolf Hitler was (simple - if I follow your proposal) a military man. As a wikipedian I can say nothing more about him? That he pushed European nations to one of the most terrible war and also one of the greates nation as Germans are... And as he admited in the court (about 1926) he was even not German... Do I have to be quiet about this? 
: Smrt fašizmu, svoboda narodu (Death to fascism, freedom to nation)
: Živela OF (Hail Liberation Front)
: --XJamRastafire 16:18, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mr. XJamrastafire 

message: : I accept your apology about adressing me in such a way. Okay. By saying that your adressing was offensive towards me I guess it is just a personal view. But on the other hand - why you call me after my surname, and not for example after my first name...? I do believe that you did not mean to insult me - and I've never said I am somekind of rastafarian (but in fact perhaps I am - but who cares...). You just have concluded that I admire many things from this. It is my personal thing what I do believe, and I do act according to this, so I do not want to press down on anyone.
: Bad things about Slovenes. I've already said it several times that you try to show how a civil war was going on during WW2 in Slovenia. Recently a third Slovene Partisan general,  Lado Ambrožič Novljan passed away. In his short TV biography he said and affirmed that there was no civil war, so this is your invention and I can not stand it. Who shall I believe - one who does not respect nation's struggle or one true fighter? For sure I have to deal with all kind of constructive criticism about the subject - but you try to represent me as a biased contributor. Why do you have to criticize Slovene partisans after all? They were also Slovenes and I do not see nothing wrong with their struggle for freedom. Novljan also said that in Primorje (a littoral region of Slovenia) there were no collaboration of any kind. The struggle embraced all levels of Slovene population in this area. Also in Styria there were no collaboration. 30.000 (35.000) young Slovenes from Styria were brought to German Army under constraint (of which 5.000 have died in battlefields). Anti-communist fight (your designation - not mine) was held just in a central part of Slovenia. For units see above. And tell to your Slovene friends what you think about so called civil war. I wonder what they have to say about this. »...erase your fantasy« is from Robert Nesta »Bob« Marley's song Stiff Necked Fools. You can read the lyrics and you can tell me what Bob meant by 'fantasy'. With Star Trek I have just explained in which way I have used a term 'old man' - not to say that you have a fantasy. I am not threatening you in no way. I just try to discuss this serious subject. That's all. I hope we do understand. And finally, you didn't have to call me Mr. Jani, or my nick is just fine...
: Damaging the article. I try to be constructive, but in this way I can not go further on. How can I? What do I have to deny, what do I have to believe? To my nation's true history, or to modern fashions of all kinds? How about you? Stop accusing me all the time, and write something down that will be adequate and try to help such contributors as I am. How can you go over the facts and numbers I gave you about NOB? It is true, yes, that patriotism can be traitorousness in many cases, but not in all ones. Slovene patriotism, Irish patriotism, ... they do exist and they have existed through history. Adolf Hitler was (simple - if I follow your proposal) a military man. As a wikipedian I can say nothing more about him? That he pushed European nations to one of the most terrible war and also one of the greates nation as Germans are... And as he admited in the court (about 1926) he was even not German... Do I have to be quiet about this? 
: Smrt fašizmu, svoboda narodu (Death to fascism, freedom to nation)
: Živela OF (Hail Liberation Front)
: --XJamRastafire 16:18, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reply to LightningHop about Civil War in Slovenia during WW2 

message: The NPOV notice has been here since 19:17, 16 Mar 2004. Someone please do something already, it's September... --Joy [shallot] 15:41, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The »National Heroes« have been since renamed to »Military Men and Women«, which, I believe, is the proper title for people active in any military campaign on either side. I plan to add general Leon Rupnik onto the list; others will hopefully make the list more complete. Are there any further objections concerning the bias of the list, or could the NPOV notice be removed? --Peterlin 14:34, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV note 

message: "Arnulf of Carinthia (850-899) - King of East Francia (887-899), King of Italy (896-899) and Holy Roman Emperor (896-899) (Carantanian(Slovenian) mother)" -entered by 86.61.124.15. This is pure fantasy! Even if it were original research, WP would not be the place for it.
Not one of the various theories concerning  Arnulf's motherMediaeval Genealogy: Liutswind:Read the theories  (in German ) even remotely ventilates the idea that she might not have been of Bavarian descent.
 --Marschner (talk) 17:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Pure fantasy: Arnulf of Carinthia

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thread_title:  External links modified