Talk:Rumbling Hearts

message: The plot section of this article summarizes the Anime plot.  The various game endings are missing.  Also missing from the article is that a 228 page visual game walkthrough was published in 2002 titled Kimi ga Nozomu Eien  Memorial Artbook- it's available for purchase in the US, JList I know carries it.  Anyhow there are something like 17 endings.  The most interesting one is the Haruka gets pregnant, slips back into the comma then Akane marries Takayuki and  the family- in order to  cover up Haruka's "indiscration" claim the child is Akane's. --Jsoo1 03:31, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The game info is suspiciously lacking

message: I think the mention of many of the dub script changes is largely irrelevant to a Wikipedia entry. If it's there at all it should be much shorter and balanced with a some more positive comments (such as the views of the Anime News Network review ) to ensure NPOV. Not that it's wrong to criticize FUNimation's script liberties - I haven't liked some of them in the past either. But as it is right now, the section is way too long and overly negative. It is likely to be offensive to those who enjoyed the dub. --EmperorBrandon 05:10, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ordinarily I would agree with you, but not in this case.  With this dub they changed multiple plot points, added expletives that didn't need to be there and don't even match mouth movements, softened language from Akane that needed to be there, down aged Ayu and Mayu, for no reason.  Finally- from the Anime News Network's review "but it's Kevin M. Connolly, who to this point has only done bit parts, who turns in the highest-quality work in his interpretation of Takayuki. Though he takes a bit different approach than the original seiyuu, it sounds and feels right. " Which is in fact the opinion of the reviewer.  The original voice actor most likely was directed to model his performance as being emotionally numb and subdued, consistent with the other elements of post traumatic stress disorder that are present throughout the work such as the; the flashbacks, the loss of appetite, the insomnia, strong affect reactions to triggers, loss of volition, etc etc present in the work.  The dubbed version removes this element from not only Takayuki's performance but also to a lesser extent Mitsuki's.  Akane's motivation is also changed/softened because of the changes made in the dub- her motivation for saying such awful things is in fact because she has feelings for Takayuki and not because she's being protective of her sister.   This actually changes the work quit a bit as in the original Takayuki still is not well even three years after the accident.  It also removes a different way of looking at why he doesn't have sex with Huruka the second time, due in large part due to his triggered stress reaction (Part of his illness) to the reminder of the accident instead of a sense of commitment to Mitsuki or any regards to Haruka's feelings- which purposely was added to the anime as that huge scar running between Haruka's breast was not present in the game and subsequently he does not stop in the game (They do it in the hospital bed).  In the English dub version he most likely was not directed to model his performance after someone suffering from PTSD and they purposely changed dialog and plot points to erase that element.  The fact of the matter is they did change plot points through dialog and did change the way the characters are portrayed , changing the plot again.  This certainly needs to be mentioned.  It's not necessarily negative but the two are significantly different enough to be considered different works.  as a matter of point originally when I wrote that section it was shorter but it got removed by you, on the basis it was biased, so I expanded the points- although there are significant other points where they changed it, for example in the dub Haruka tells Mitsuki she has completely fallen head over heals in love with Takayuki again with him often sitting in bed with her, this is actually not what she said - it is much softer in the sub, and in the dub Mitsuki's motivation for sleeping and then telling Takayuki to stop seeing her can only be a strong jealous reaction instead of the possible mixed reasons it was originally.--Jsoo1 12:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A lot of what you're saying is your own interpretation and counts as original research. It is not supposed to be in a Wikipedia article. --EmperorBrandon 18:30, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Exactly which part of that is interpretation?  The visit with Haruka dialog, in episode 8, is in fact different in the dub than the sub.  Akane  does admit she visits Haruka in the hospital because she in fact does want to see Takayuki  in episode 11, that is if you watch the subtitled version.  Takayuki character most certainly does exhibit the symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and it isn't just the emotionally numbness, only one symptom. Takayuki does not stop with Haruka until he does see the scar and does have a startle reaction upon seeing it.   Absolutely none of that except the comments on direction are interpretation.  Even your own source, which is not NPOV, comments that the characters are portrayed differently in both versions- In the case of your source they liked it.   Okay... Not up for debate is the dialog in the sub and dub are different- no debate there.  Also not up for debate is the level of affect  in the voicework between the two performances is different (Your own source points this out as does many other sources BTW).   Several examples of the differences between the sub and dub dialog and the note that levels of affect are different between the Japanese and English Voice voicework is currently what is in the article, just how how I rewrote to avoid POV. The fact that there are differences in both the voice work and the dialog are important enough to mention in reviews and across forums proves it is relevant and should be mentioned.   Your suggestion to make it "much shorter and balanced with a some more positive comments (such as the views of the Anime News Network review ) to ensure NPOV" Would make it POV if we include "Positive" comments, as there currently aren't any negative comments in the article as it is right now.--Jsoo1 02:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All that stuff is original research, as I said above. Where in the anime does it ever say Takayuki has PTSD? Unless you have a source that can verify something like that, you shouldn't go about adding it to a Wikipedia article. --EmperorBrandon 04:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: None of that is original research!!!    Once again the dialog is indeed different in those places and in fact Anime News Network  (Did you see that I just cited it ) even points out that Funimation took an interpretive approach to the script with the dub. Your own source verifies that the two are different, among others.  It's also very verifiable...  In the US releases vol I , vol II , and vol III  and switch the menu from English with no subtitles to English with Subtitles and watch it and  the spoken dialog does not match the subtitles on the screen at those places.  If you read the original research page it does allow literature and TV Series themselves as Primary Sources.  In this case the work itself, the hybrid DVD set to display the subtitles while the English dub is playing is the Primary source.  There are multiple secondary sources, including the citation we have already been talking about.  Do you want verbatim quotes of the actual dialog v the subtitle with a cite of the actual R1 release DVD??  That isn't original research.  So we have a verifiable primary source (The actual work itself) and reliable secondary sources plus there are multiple less reliable secondary sources in the form of fanpages and internet forums (Discussion boards).     As far as the the PTSD... where was Haruka ever officially diagnosed in the series with anterograde amnesia??  In none of the Primary sources is the diagnosis ever disclosed.   Not in the series not in any of the official release materials- Nowhere except discussion boards, blogs, fansites, and here is the correct name put to the disorder she is afflicted with.  A knowledgeable editor at some point saw the symptoms described, saw the blogs and discussions,  and used synthesis with published information on antegrade amnesia to shorten the description of the symptoms to simply antegrade amnesia instead of fully listing the symptoms.    Also the blunted affect is present in both the dub and the sub at the 1 year flashback sequence...  As are all the other symptoms of PTSD.  Anyhow there are websites that do refer to this as PTSD if you want the citations in the article.  Here is one .  It really isn't original research and most certainly does belong in a Wikipedia article.  Your main contention however is and still seems to be that the dub and sub differences(In the US it was released as a hybrid DVD containing both versions on one disk) is mentioned.  Ordinarily I would agree that the differences shouldn't be mentioned but this case is different as the differences in this case run contrary to the typical dub v. sub differences and is in fact important enough that reliable Secondary sources, like Anime News Network, are mentioning it.  Typically the complaint is the US voicework contains less emotion than the original.  In this case it contains more emotion.  Typically the complaint is that language is softened for release in the US while in this case they added expletives (Made it harsher).  Normally they add words to make the mouth movements match but in this case they add words so they don't end up matching (Because they  tossed in some expletives).  Normally in the dub they change the age of the characters to make them over 18 but for some bizarre reason they changed it to make Ayu and Mayu younger. Finally you contend the section is too long...  You seem to be forgetting that this article is covering a franchise of  Visual novels adapted into Anime.  When we look at the  Good Rated Articles where the game was adapted into an Anime what you have is a separate page for the Anime episodes with a paragraph or two synopsis/summary of each episode.  In fact in the Good Rated Anime Articles they split the episodes off into their own page and have a paragraph or two summary of each episode. --Jsoo1 02:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  Just because something is written on a site other than Wikipedia doesn't make it objective fact. Reviews are inherently biased. You read a review because you want an opinion on a product. But even if an opinion is highly qualified, it is still an opinion. The goal of Wikipedia is to provide unbiased information, with as little inflection of personal opinion as is reasonably possible. If you really want to cite ANN's reviews in your article, please at least indicate that the statements represent the opinion of an individual, rather than objective fact. I've deleted the "dub changes" section for now, but if you can rewrite it from a standpoint that exhibits proper neutrality, I see no reason why it shouldn't stay. Just for the record, I loved the dub, and not only am I aware of the adaptations, but I think to a great extent they're a part of what makes it so great. By adapting the dialogue and voices to flow more naturally within the context of Western language and culture, the scriptwriters have made the characters feel exponentially more lifelike and emotionally believable. I remember what inspired me to watch the series in the first place was watching the pilot episode on a Newtype disc, and thinking, "Wow, these characters sound like people I actually KNOW. They sound REAL." It's not often that a dub is able to focus on relatability over literal translation, and sometimes it admittedly does go wrong. But in this case I feel that (despite some admitted small errors) it worked out wonderfully. But the final deciding factor, I suppose, is what one looks for in a dub. The defining factors for me are the expressiveness of the actors, the appropriateness of the voices, and particularly for a drama, the believability of the dialogue. That's why I like dubs like Evangelion, Akira and Kiminozo. But, your tastes may be different. That's why, at the end of the day, what we're talking about here is OPINION. Wikipedia needs less of it. Good day. Gatotsu911 (talk) 20:01, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

text: At this point the section appears well cited by reliable sources (with one exception). While opinions will differ on the quality vs accuracy of the dub, to actually balance out the section is to find counter (positive) sources. Until found the section can be as negative as existing reviews. - RoyBoy 20:20, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dub changes 

message: 'A second anime OVA series, which will feature Haruka's route from the game (the first series covered Mitsuki's), is currently in production.' 
Could that please be moved down from the top of the entry and spoiler marked? It contains a presumable ending spoiler for     someone who is only through 4 episodes of the series. 76.167.74.61 20:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, that information should be incorporated into the article just like any other information see wp:spoiler. "It is not acceptable to delete information from an article about a work of fiction because you think it spoils the plot. Such concerns must not interfere with neutral point of view, encyclopedic tone, completeness, or any other element of article quality" Thank you. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 13:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Spoiler

message: I am going to leave this here for now...
2001 PC game
Characters
*Takayuki Narumi
*Haruka Suzumiya
*Mitsuki Hayase
Vol. 1 DVD from FUNimation: December [2006]
PC dating sim
TV anime (En title): "Rumbling Hearts: Kiminozo"
Staff
*Creator: âge
*Director: Hideki Takayama
*Script: Takamitsu Kono
*Character design: Kazuhiko Murata
*Animation production: Brain's Base
Cast
*Takayuki Narumi: Kisho Taniyama
*Haruka Suzumiya: Namami Kuribayashi
*Mitsuki Hayase: Chiaki Takahashi
*Shinji Taira: Makoto Aoki
*Akane Haruka: Kaori Mizuhashi
References
"Rumbling Hearts". Newtype USA. 5 (11) p. 25. November 2006. .
"Kimi ga Nozomu Eien". Newtype USA. 7 (2) p. 16. February 2008. .
The characters section needs to be copy edited. If someone else does not do it I may. In either case the references should prove useful. – allen四names 02:36, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Future edits 

message: There are ambiguous sub-section headers in the article that should either be disambiguated or contain  templates to provide unique HTML ids. – Allen4names 18:04, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Header disambiguation 

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