Talk:Moons of Pluto

message: The table indicates that Pluto is inclined 0.001° to its own equator.  This is an error, I think...  it does not seem possible. If anyone agrees with me, please go ahead and correct the table. 71.219.240.123 (talk) 03:27, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think what is meant is its inclincation to the Pluto-Charon barycentre. Lanthanum-138 (talk) 14:13, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclined to its own equator? 

message: Orbital periods of 28.1 & 41.7 days calculated from orbital radii of 50 & 65 Mm, assumed to not vary significantly from the semimajor axes, and a Plutonian mass of 1.25 E22 kg. Radii are consistant with the Plutonian system diagram published by NASA (in fact I measured just those figures), but no other source was provided. kwami 01:47, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: According to http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/051031_pluto_moons.html the diameters of the two new moons are between 30 and 100 miles (45 and 160 kilometers). There orbits are 27,000 miles (44,000 km) from Pluto. Martinwilke1980 09:40, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orbits and diameters of S/2005 P1 and P2 

message: forgive my ignorance, but could the 'images' be uploaded to wikipedia if the moons have been 'imaged'? 'In The News' currently mentions them after all. Or are the images unsuitable? --81.154.236.221 19:48, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: They're on the individual moon articles. kwami 01:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Imaged? 

message: When I try to look at the animation link at the bottom (which is referenced in the article text), an AVI file is downloaded, and Windows Media Player gives me an error that it can't find the codec.  What codec is needed to look at it?  (And this should probably be referenced next to the link.)  Tempshill 20:49, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: We can't give technical information for every media player that might be in use. You need to go to the support website for your software and look up which codex you need. Personally, I use WinAmp, and I chose the codecs when I downloaded the software so that I could play every kind of file that had support available. kwami 00:01, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Tempshill, this appears to be IV50, Intel's ancient Indeo 5.0. Unfortunately. :( --Markzero 14:27, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Animation link? 

message: Naming notes
So far no asteroid shares the name of a Plutonian moon. 
I just removed this short section. If the section can be expanded, put it back. It seems to be hinting at something, but currently detracts from the article.
Ummm, could you at least sign your comments?  If you're familiar with the sections on each {Planet}'s natural satellites page, you would see that this is a "standard" comment made.  The SWRI group has names forthcoming, I'm sure: but that's not the point.  It's simply standard to note this since planetary satellite names and minor planet names can (unfortunately) overlap. --Sturmde 15:19, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cut from article 

message: An anon added the statement that the proposed names for the new moons are Pluto's three-headed dog Cerberus and its two-headed brother Orthrus. Great names, and appropriate for medium moons, but I can't confirm, so I deleted. (One-headed Charon for Pluto I, two-headed Orthrus for Pluto II, and three-headed Cerberus for Pluto III - it's got a nice symmetry to it.) kwami 01:12, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've only seen those names suggested in comments at Phil Plait's Bad Astronomy blog pages...  Here's hoping the discovery gang picks up on the mnemonic value you've pointed out!  one head, moon one... two heads, moon two... etc.  Superb observation! --Sturmde 03:18, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd think it'd go that way regardless, with Cerberus being the name of the brighter moon; also, the order 'Cerberus & Orthrus' correlating with P1 & P2, but it would be annoying if they ended up getting chosen but the other way around! kwami 04:29, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Does anyone happen to know how to contact the discoverers or the IAU and propose this?  --Doradus 03:15, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I emailed several of the discoverers (at least one from each participating institution) but unsurprisingly haven't received any replies. They must be swamped in email about this. Anyway, hopefully one of them will have at least read it, in case these names are actually considered. kwami 02:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I like those names.  I put them to the test. — Hurricane Devon (Talk) 18:02, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

text: "Here are some ground rules: the names must come from Roman mythology and they must have a logical connection to one another and to either Pluto or Charon (or both)."
Well, I guess Greek names are ok.--Jyril 14:17, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Damn! Cerberus is already reserved for asteroid 1865 Cerberus.--Jyril 14:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That dosn't mater.  There're are asteroids named after moons and moons named after asteroids.  Cupid is the names of an asteroid, but Uranus now has a moon with this name. — Hurricane Devon ( Talk ) 17:00, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When the discovery of P1 & P2 came out, they said that they'll study them in February 2006.  And they said that they would name them once the're confirmed.  It's only a matter of time now.— Hurricane Devon ( Talk ) 02:08, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Names 

message: I'm a bit uncomfortable that we claim the Pluto+Charon system is a double planet just because the barycenter is not inside Pluto.  I raised the same objection in Talk:Jupiter#Barycenter.  The problem is, there are planet+satellite configurations where the barycenter is outside the planet, yet the pair is clearly not a double planet.  For instance, if Neptune had a satellite at a distance of 50 Gm — well within its Hill sphere — with a mass of just 1/500 of Neptune, then the barycenter of this system would be well outside of Neptune, but I think this is clearly not a double planet system.  --Doradus 14:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, 'often called a double planet' or 'the closest thing in the Solar system to a double planet' would be less misleading. kwami 22:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be happier if we were to claim the reason was Charon's large size relative to Pluto, rather than the system's barycenter; or equally good, if we were to cite an authoratative source that also claimed the barycenter as the reason.  --Doradus 02:55, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  
Barycenter
 

message: Are these the nicknames of the moons? — Hurricane Devon ( Talk ) 20:27, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, they were used by the discovery team.--Jyril 20:41, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Your call. Take them out if you like. kwami 00:29, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boulder and Baltimore? 

message: Recent Hubble images show the moons of Pluto have all similar color after all. Schematic view of the Pluto system shows S/2005 P 1 to be slightly larger. Unfortunately, no diameter values for the moons are provided in the news release.--Jyril 16:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that. Will incorporate. P1-P2 size difference and size relative to Charon may simply be diff in brightness assuming same albedo, since we don't have much else to go on. kwami 20:02, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The sizes in the image suggest 44km for P2 and 58km for P1. kwami 21:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Common origin of the satellites

message: The phrase "as seen from the ecliptic" makes no sense.  Depending on where on the ecliptic plane one is located, the moons' orbits could look completely different.  Does this actually mean "as seen from the Sun"?  If so, why is it so different from the view from the Earth?  --Doradus 16:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, my apologies. The view is from near Charon’s orbit pole, i.e. declination 0°, RA 133° following Buie. The 96° inclination can be tough to explain, and the inclinations to Pluto’s equator and Pluto’s orbit even tougher so I abandoned them as long as I do not have the diagram showing it. In fact, this is not so dramatically different from Uranus moons (except to Pluto’s orbit inclination, of course). I hope my update clears it up. BTW, the orbits have been assumed circular from the discovery images; now this is confirmed by calculation based on more images going back to 2002. PS. Relatively new to wikipedia, I've seen your feeling ‘makes no sense’ (indeed, I forgot longitude or RA) expressed by more polite statements. Regards Eurocommuter 18:53, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seen from the ecliptic? 

message: The paper I cited is Lithwick & Wu, On the Origin of Pluto's Minor Moons, Nix and Hydra, American Astronomical Society, DDA meeting #38, #3.05, July 2007. I have only seen the abstract, and suspect I got the second eccentricity wrong, or that there's a typo. kwami 16:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a bit confusing, but they write 0.8(R_Pluto/a_Charon) - who knows why they use this weird notation - which must mean 0.8 times the ratio. The ratio is 0.061, so they must be meaning an eccentricity of at least 0.049 (let's say 0.05, since 0.8 is only to one significant digit). Sounds like a reasonable number Deuar 10:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins 

message: There has been consensus to change the name of the Uranus' natural satellites article to "Moons of Uranus" here. This fits the footer, is less jargony, and avoids the apostrophe issue some people complain about with Uranus and Mars. However, this article should have the same format. Anyone here wish to comment, support, or object? kwami 19:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Moons of Pluto" 

message: Why are there two different values for the orbital eccentricity of their circum-barycentric orbit (0 vs. 0.0022)? As long as you can neglect the influences of Nix and Hydra (together less than 3 permille of Charon's mass) the Newtonian laws of motion require the eccentriciues to be equal. The JPL page does not mention a separate eccentricity for Pluto around P+C's barycenter, therefore we can assume them to be equal.--SiriusB (talk) 13:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eccentricities of Pluto vs. Charon 

message: Perhaps an image to consider: — kwami (talk) 19:17, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  image 

message: There are two more "potential" satellites that were discovered at the same time as P4, but they are smaller and are still only "potential" satellites. Is there a place in this article for those, or should we wait until the potential is realized (or rejected)? If this is included, can someone find an original source? The page I included above was linked to from the Twitter feed associated with http://pluto.jhuapl.edu/, but it's written for the layman and lacks detail. (All it says about the potential satellites is "But P4 wasn’t the only body around Pluto discovered this year. Two more candidate satellites, smaller than P4, were also found. But they aren’t satellites yet. The team needs to do more research and make more observations before the new bodies can be confirmed or rejected as Plutonian satellites."  Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 11:48, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have mentioned it in the article and used  to source it. --JorisvS (talk) 12:14, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That information seems to be outdated now, with the announcement of P5. Unless the second candidate is still being investigated, which would presumably have been stated along with P5's discovery... --Roentgenium111 (talk) 17:01, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potential satellites 

message: http://www.minotdailynews.com/page/blogs.detail/display/837/Naming-Pluto-s-two-new-moons.html
I'm not sure how much we can trust this. And even if it is true, we can't guarantee this is what they will be named. Worth a mention or no? 134340Goat (talk) 21:25, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Showalter's suggested names 

message: Why have we gone back to calling them S/2011 P1 and S/2012 P1? Although both are "official", I thought we'd decided to use Pluto's number rather than its letter.  134340Goat (talk) 01:57, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Dunno. Fits the table better, though. — kwami (talk) 23:44, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The "P" names are correct for the 3 first discovered companions of Pluton (Charon = S/1978 P 1 = Pluto I, Nix = S/2005 P 2 = Pluto II, Hydra = S/2005 P 1 = Pluto III) because Pluto was still a planet by this time. However, it is not considered as such since 2006 then any satellite orbiting around Pluto discovered after this date shouldn't be named with "P" but with the "(134340)" name, hence the correct S/2011 (134340) P 1 (aka P4) and S/2012 (134340) P 1 (aka P5). SenseiAC (talk) 08:44, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Without a ref, that's OR. The latter is (almost) the standard format for minor planets, but "P" is the established abbreviation for Pluto. — kwami (talk) 09:29, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that here, we use P, but on the articles for the moons themselves, we use (134340). Should we not make it consistent in all areas? Meaning, we should either change the P here to the number, or vice-versa. 134340Goat (talk) 22:02, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think its a problem to use a shorter alt name in a table. We do that all the time with countries such as "America" and "China", for example. — kwami (talk) 22:14, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. After all, the names using the P are used in official sources, anyway. 134340Goat (talk) 22:47, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  P1 or (134340) 1 

message: See http://www.plutorocks.com/. Seems S/2011 (134340) 1 and S/2012 (134340) 1 are supposed to be named Vulcan and Cerberus. The site says "It could take 1-2 months for the final names of P4 and P5 to be selected and approved." Does anybody know whether the approval already happened? -- Toshio Yamaguchi 09:45, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: "Vulcan" is a stupid name for an ice moon, and anyway it went together with "Romulus".  Now that the latter is not being proposed, there's no good reason for the former.  Don't know if it's going to be formally proposed, or if it would be approved if it were. — kwami (talk) 16:35, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moons to be named "Vulcan" and "Cerberus" 

message: You know that picture below the table that shows the scaled distances between the objects of the Plutonian system? Anyway, I see that it's been replaced to accommodate for the recently announced names of the moons, however upon clicking on it for the full picture, I simply get redirected here to the old one. Any way to fix this? 134340Goat (talk) 01:05, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem with a picture 

message: Have there been any additional sightings of objects that might be further satellites than those already discovered that would substantiate this claim, since the discovery of Styx and Kerberos? 203.114.146.141 (talk) 04:17, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Kwamikagami mentioned on Talk:Styx (moon) that a candidate sixth Plutonian satellite was found in the data that contained Kerberos and Styx, though it was never confirmed. Double sharp (talk) 12:22, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Last Summer, I went down to Maryland/Washington DC to visit the New Horizons mission control center. I spoke to Alan Stern myself (he was kind enough to buy me lunch!) and I asked him about that. Apparently, Mark Showalter thought he'd found a P6, P7, AND P8, but it turned out just Kerberos and Styx were confirmed with certainty. We'll just have to wait for NH when it gains better than Hubble resolution.... 134340Goat (talk) 02:39, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: "Ten Moons?"

message: This article lists Pluto's diameter as about 2306 km, however Pluto's main article lists the radius as 1184 km (2368 km in diameter). As far as I know, the latter estimate is the most recent, so should this article be changed to reflect that? Or is there a reason it is listed differently here? 134340Goat (talk) 04:14, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Pluto's diameter will really only be known for certain when New Horizons flies by it in July. However, even the cited source currently has different value from the one in the table (1195 km), but it is best to be consistent anyway. Good catch. --JorisvS (talk) 12:57, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pluto diameter 

message: NASA-Audio (Wednesday, June 3, 2015@1pm/edt/usa) - Panel of experts to discuss latest "surprising" findings by the Hubble Space Telescope of the Moons of Pluto. - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 12:04, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  [http://www.nasa.gov/newsaudio NASA-Audio] (06/03/2015@1pm/edt/usa) - [[Moons of Pluto]] - "Surprising" Finds. 

message: This New York Times article http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/science/space/pluto-moons-orbits-described-in-nature-article.html?_r=0 quotes a new study published in the Nature magazine about Pluto's moon system. I hope info from that article can be incorporated into this article. I see lot's of news articles recently quoting the Nature article but it itself is behind a paywall. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7554/full/nature14469.html Published online 03 June 2015.85.170.155.24 (talk) 10:40, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Things are going to change drastically in the upcoming month. We're going to get clear pictures of all the moons, especially Charon. We should get ready.Ericl (talk) 16:52, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly! That's what I've doing with this article and Pluto for the past two weeks or so, by standardizing and reordering content. You're welcome to help, of course. --JorisvS (talk) 17:04, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  New info 

message: Dimensions were not added to the individual articles. They were also overly precise. Do we know their precision other than by sig fig?
Do the masses correspond to the new diameters? They also contradict the articles, and do not have their source listed. — kwami (talk) 06:09, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No inconsistencies there. Pluto is orbiting the center of mass of the Pluto-Charon system, which is 2035 km from the center of Pluto (outside of the solid body). All the other objects in the system orbit much further out. As stated in the footnote, all elements are with respect to the Pluto-Charon barycenter. Renerpho (talk) 03:37, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dimensions 

message: In http://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/new-horizons-captures-two-of-plutos-smaller-moons, it is said that Hydra's size has been measured to be 55x40 km, while Nix is 42x36 km.
As these measurements differ from the one that was obtained by Hubble via indirect methods, I think they should be added as alternative values. As I'm technically not able to do this, can somebody help, please?
Renerpho (talk) 16:48, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The latest estimates should be used, IMO, though they suffer from each being based on a single image and therefor not fully covering all three dimensions. If anyone knows of a more reliable estimate, please chime in. — kwami (talk) 02:43, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Measurement of Nix's and Hydra's size 

message: On the press conference today it has been said that Pluto's radius was estimated to be 1186 +-2 km, resulting in a diamter of 2372 +-4. That should be added to the article, though I don't know what I can give as a reference.
Renerpho (talk) 20:45, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course it should be added to the main Pluto article as well.Renerpho (talk) 20:46, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No, they said "It's plus/minus 2, centered around 1186".Renerpho (talk) 21:44, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pluto diameter 

message: Is this section accurate? I can't find the numbers given in the cites. The main papers are both available to read by anyone:
http://hubblesite.org/pubinfo/pdf/2015/24/pdf.pdf
and
http://www.nature.com/news/pluto-s-moons-move-in-synchrony-1.17681
The resonance is summarized by the author of the main paper Mark Showalter as “If you lived in the Pluto system and were sitting on Nix, you would see Hydra go around three times every time Styx goes around twice,” which might be a good way to begin this section. (quote from that second Nature paper).
In these papers, I can find no mention anywhere of the numbers in the introductory paragraph of the resonances section of this article:
How are those figures 18:22:33 derived from the paper? Where do the numbers 11, 9 and 6 come from in the citation sources? I can't find any of this with a search for those numbers in the papers. 
Am I missing something, can anyone see how those numbers relate to what the paper says?
This is my summary of the relevant section of the paper from a science blog post:
Robert Walker (talk) 13:31, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This info was added by  on 23 June. Stas (talk) 07:27, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is the easiest way to get those ratios. Showalter & Hamilton give the ratios of the periods of Nix, Hydra and Styx as 4:6:36/11 (3rd page of article, right column). Multiply those values by 11/2 to get the period ratios 22:33:18. Then take the inverses of those values, and multiply them by 198 to get the ratios of orbits: 9:6:11. WolfmanSF (talk) 22:16, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Resonances

message: Merged article into section. Deleted obvious garbage, such as image showing Charon eclipsing Sputnik Planum. I don't know how much of the rest might be garbage. — kwami (talk) 20:07, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eclipses  

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I was measuring the relative distances and sizes of the image under List (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pluto_and_Charon_system_new.png) and it seems to me that the distances in the picture don't match the distances noted in the list above it.
For example if I scale the image so that Charon is 1200 pixels wide, in reality ~1208km in diameter, I would expect the distance to the barycenter to be around 17536 pixel (the same in km). But instead it is just around 11600 pixel? Only for Pluto it's correct (semi-major axis = 2035km --> distance in image ~2035 pixel). I'm measuring from the center of each body.
Now I found this image (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pluto_Moons_Orbit_Distance_2015.svg) used on the German Pluto wiki-page (They have the same table with all the moons there). Which even by looking at it you can see it has very different distances.
But this one also seems off as I found out that it measures the semi-major axis from each moon's center to Pluto's center (which is not correct, it should be the distance from moon center to barycenter, that is the semi-major axis distance given in the list).
So what I'm saying is, that either the data in the list is wrong, or the image (in which case it should probably be removed or replaced by a correct version), or am I not understanding something correctly? 79.218.21.163 (talk) 01:11, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scale model of the Pluto system - Distances wrong? 

message: An interesting paper! Double sharp (talk) 14:27, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible Plutonian irregulars 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: Taken from the edit history (so we can refer to it here more easily):
:(cur | prev) 15:30, 14 March 2018‎ Polyamorph (talk | contribs)‎ . . (31,454 bytes) (+2)‎ . . (Undid revision 830389057 by Saturn comes back around (talk) Inconsistent with source - please take this to the talk page) (undo | thank) (Tag: Undo)
:(cur | prev) 14:48, 14 March 2018‎ Saturn comes back around (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (31,452 bytes) (-2)‎ . . (→‎Resonances: gosh, never been in an actual edit war before! but hey, so long as NOBODY justifies the absurdity of stating one ratio in one sentence, then stating a DIFFERENT ratio in the other four sentences (and nice picture of actual orbits visually), i'm happy to go at it. either leave this edit, or add an explanation how the utterly incompatible 18:22:33 results in 6:9:11 orbits. i believe doing otherwise is called vandalism, unless i'm much mistaken. and if you must use paywall sources, have the courtesy to at least quote something relevant. even a single sentence of explanation will do. reverting is otherwise vandalism.) (undo | thank) (Tag: Visual edit)
:(cur | prev) 18:49, 13 March 2018‎ Renerpho (talk | contribs)‎ . . (31,454 bytes) (+434)‎ . . (Added additional reference for resonance (to avoid paywall). The individual resonances are 22:33 = 2:3, 18:22 = 9:11 (as stated in the next sentence; the ratio of 9:6 is equal to 33:22)) (undo)
:(cur | prev) 14:55, 13 March 2018‎ Saturn comes back around (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (31,020 bytes) (-2)‎ . . (No good telling people to check inaccessible source, esp. if it is clearly at odds with everything else written down, including our own full scale picture model of the entire cycle, where it adds up to 6:9:11, exactly as stated EVERYWHERE ELSE BUT this one ridiculous tidbit of conflicting info. So before reverting, perhaps you can also add a sentence explaining the discrepancy.) (undo | thank) (Tag: Visual edit)
:(cur | prev) 07:02, 13 March 2018‎ Renerpho (talk | contribs)‎ . . (31,022 bytes) (+2)‎ . . (Undid revision 830169908 by Saturn comes back around (talk) The resonance is indeed 18:22:33 which is in smallest possible form. Refer to the source given.) (undo) (Tag: Undo)
:(cur | prev) 04:51, 13 March 2018‎ Saturn comes back around (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (31,020 bytes) (-2)‎ . . (→‎Resonances: derp requires even MOAR herp, as 18:27:33 is not in smallest possible form.) (undo | thank) (Tag: Visual edit)
:(cur | prev) 04:48, 13 March 2018‎ Saturn comes back around (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (31,022 bytes) (0)‎ . . (→‎Resonances: So, apparently needed more herp in the derp, cos 3*9 ain't 22. :o)) (undo | thank) (Tag: Visual edit)
--Renerpho (talk) 16:25, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: How is it possible that on a website so chock-full of astonishing scientific information, we are having such an astonishing difficulty understanding the most basic of mathematical notations? Renerpho's last reversion of my edit helpfully shows how in the ratio of 18:22:33, 18:22 is equivalent to 9:11, while 22:33 to 6:9, and that's true, BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE 18:22:33 EQUIVALENT TO 6:9:11, which is the DIAGRAMMED and thrice-repeated (triple) ratio shown elsewhere in the relevant paragraph. You don't just snip out parts of a triple ratio and make arbitrary partial ratios of it, then re-assemble those results into another triple ratio. That's _really_ not how it works. Honest it isn't. The ratio provided is quite simply either wrong, or the REST of the paragraph, INCLUDING the nice little diagram of the orbits, is. You cannot have it both ways. 18:22:33 does NOT mean you can take the 22:33 bit, and make that 6:9, without ALSO taking the 18 part and turning it 4.90909..., capisce? And since THAT is not a whole number value, you simply CANNOT re-express the ratio as stated. And you can't really get around this. So, either make a nice new diagram that shows the relevant body finishing at 4.90909... revolutions after the accompanying bodies' 6 and 9 revolutions, or please just stop this most embarrassing revert war. Either you fellas are wrong, or you are not expressing yourself clearly. And regardless, you need to also explain this astonishing discrepancy in the remainder of the text, because as is, it is mathematical nonsense.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saturn comes back around (talk • contribs) 15:05, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for taking this to the talk page. I am happy to discuss this but NOT in the form of an edit war. I think I now see what the problem is: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hydra,_Nix,_Styx_orbital_resonance_cycle.png yields a ratio of 5.50 : 8.25 : 10.1, which is indeed equal to 18:27:33. But this is not a contradiction: The relevant ratio here is not 5.50:8.25=18:27. What is relevant is 8.25:10.1 = 18:22, and 5.50:8.25=22:33.--Renerpho (talk) 16:38, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The paragraph could actually profit from an extra one or two sentences, to avoid confusion. I will work on a draft and post it here. We can work on it then, and when we all agree we add it to the article. Agreed?--Renerpho (talk) 20:50, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

text: aw heck... I can't possibly maintain grumpiness after you've put in this much effort. And it sucks even more to have to respond with the following, because I very much appreciate how much good faith you've shown in doing this... but: when providing a triple ratio, you cannot look at only parts of it, simplify them, then reconstruct the original ratio from these piecemeal bits. In the case here, if you isolate the 22:33 part, divide by 11 and multiply by 3 to arrive at 6:9 (and this would all be perfectly correct were this just that simple ratio), you *must* also do the same to the remaining member of the original tripartite ratio, the "18:…" header. Doing so will leave you with the result of 4.90909…, which not only *must* be the result added back in to the modified "6:9" part, but it *must also* be added in the *same* corresponding location in the triple ratio (which here, would yield " 4.90909… : 6 : 9 " ). That is the essence of the problem. In the triple ratio, there are indeed *three* relationships stated, not two. And so, there is no way to reduce 18:22:33 to a simpler (whole number) form. Which leaves us (as you've mentioned) with 6:9:11 being equivalent to 18:27:33, not 18:22:33. **Here is the crux**: although both "cuts" or subsections of the original that you isolate and transform are correct, I suspect you are being led off-track by the unfortunate coincidence that there is a "22" in both your 5.5:8.25 = 22:33 and 8.25.:10.1 = 18:22 equivalences. But look again. In the first one, it is the 5.5 that results in the 22, whereas in the second, it is the 10.1 that does so. Yet that final "22" can only correspond to one or the other in the final form. Put in another way, if you use the 5.5:8.25 ratio as the foundation, and arrive at 22:33, the correct, final ratio must have performed the *same* transformation (here, to multiply by four) to the final member that was initially left out (here, that would be the 10.1, which would result in a final form of "22:33:40.4"). And if you instead choose to use 8.25:10.1 = 18.22 as your foundation, you must then apply THAT same transformation (here, to multiply by ~2.18) to the third member left out of that initial duo, the 5.5. Doing so will yield 12, which must then be added back in at the *same* corresponding place in the final transformed ratio as it held in the original — in this case, yielding "12:18:22". To then prove this is correct, you can check to confirm that the ratios between each of the same positions in the two resulting numbers are all equivalent (i.e., 12:22 is equivalent to 18:33 is equivalent to 22:40.4). It is pure bad luck that there is a result of a 22 in both the subsections of the original ratio when transformed, but those two 22s unfortunately do *not* correspond to the same starting number. :o( Unfortunately, I am much better at explaining myself face to face rather than on paper, as it were, so please let me know if I've failed to explain my point adequately (or, if you believe I am wrong). Again, thank you very much for your good faith response …and apologies for my earlier tone. :o)   Saturn comes back around (talk) 20:20, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

text: Ah, one more (hopefully helpful) tidbit: if you look at your second note, in the first instance, you transform the 18 to a 9, but in the second, to a 6. It must consistently stay as one or the other IF you wish to provide a transformed final triple ratio where you include both the other two bodies. HTH. Saturn comes back around (talk) 20:30, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree that this is very confusing, but it is actually right as 6:9:11. You see, orbital resonances are standardly given as an inverse ratio; they don't count the orbital period, but how many orbits are completed within a certain period of time. So the orbital periods of Styx, Nix, and Hydra are in an 18:22:33 ratio; but that means that Hydra completes 22 orbits in the time Nix completes 33, or (simplifying) that Hydra completes 6 orbits in the time Nix completes 9. Furthermore it means that Hydra completes 18 orbits in the time Styx completes 33, or (simplifying) that Hydra completes 6 orbits in the time Styx completes 11. Since Hydra has completed 6 orbits in both of these ratios, we can combine them and say that the resonance is indeed 6:9:11, since the same period of time is needed for Hydra to complete 6 orbits, Nix to complete 9, and Styx to complete 11. Note that 6, 9, and 11 correspond to the original 33, 22, and 18 respectively, not the other way round, because of the reciprocation. Double sharp (talk) 00:04, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe we should do it like Laplace resonance and explicitly mention that both 18:22:33 and 11:9:6 are valid expressions for this 3-body resonance. With no contradiction because they refer to different things (orbital periods vs. number of orbits). The new draft below heavily cites from there (we can note this in the edit summary).  There is no contradiction! I hope this is clear now. --Renerpho (talk) 02:38, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, I think the current draft is very good. Double sharp (talk) 04:09, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good, I will add it to the article in that form.  If you still don't like it, please don't revert the edit. Continue the discussion here if necessary. --Renerpho (talk) 05:07, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please do! ^_^ Double sharp (talk) 06:09, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

text: I agree with the sentiment, but surely you meant to address this to ? Double sharp (talk) 07:53, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:   Ehm, yes! Sorry. I guess it's fitting to end with a sign of confusion. --Renerpho (talk) 08:11, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:   Believe me, I am far more at home with this sort of mannered discussion than any sort of yelling or edit-warring back and forth. However, getting reverted can sometimes be improperly interpreted, which it seems it was, at the very least in Renerpho's case. I am *far* happier to resolve things this way, and so heartily endorse the sentiment above. I would *absolutely* have checked the source had it been accessible, but will take your suggestion to heart nonetheless. Now, I would very much rather leave this be, but will state — solely for the record as a final clarification, should anyone need it (skip to bold if not) — that I am still of the mind that the ratios are not equivalent, as each of the three relationships are not equivalent between each member. 18:27:33 *is* equivalent to 6:9:11, and 18:27:33 can never be re-expressed as 18:22:33, because although the relationship between member B and C (as in A:B:C, for convenience's sake) is preserved perfectly, the relationship between A:B has been changed, and no longer represents 6:9, as it should. Perhaps, I will make more sense putting it thus: let's insert the names in. Styx to Nix to Hydra is 11:9:6, so, let's write that as Hydra(6):Nix(9):Styx(11). My point can be reduced to this: I see no way to insert the names into 18:22:33 that will not violate at least one of the original 3 relationships expressed in Hydra(6):Nix(9):Styx(11). Now, *having said all that* (and you may well think "pointlessly", after the following…), IF the two ratios are NOT expressing the same thing, but instead 6:9:11 is representing number of orbits completed, while 18:22:33 is expressing the number of arbitrary time units each orbit takes (as I am guessing is meant by your having shown the equivalence between multiplying each of the three corresponding members), then we are (almost) completely ALL GOOD and can forget the whole silly thing, which would be just peaches. However, I will only then add the following two suggestions: 1) we should label both the ratios clearly with what they are meant to represent, and, 2) we ought to preserve throughout the original order of the bodies represented by the ratios' members, and so express the two ratios either as "6:9:11(orbits) & 33:22:18('days'?)" or "11:9:6(orbits) & 18:22:33('qwertys', or whatnot)" (you seem to have chosen the latter; excellent, let's stick with it), and thereby maintain the relationships implied (Styx:Nix:Hydra, in the case of 18:22:33 and 11:9:6) the same throughout. Then, sticklerish types like myself will better be able to prevent themselves from making a big to-do over apparently... nothing. :o) Assuming the preceding is to everyone's satisfaction and agreement, then my sincere apologies and a large double helping of 'Thank You' to you both, gentlemen. Cheers! :oD Saturn comes back around (talk) 15:34, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre-Algebraic Conflicts 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Moons of Pluto's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Gazetteer":
From Timeline of discovery of Solar System planets and their moons: Gazetteer of Planetary Nomenclature: Planet and Satellite Names and Discoverers
From Cordelia (moon): 
From Ophelia (moon): 
From Moons of Uranus: 
From Hippocamp (moon): 
From Cupid (moon): 
From Francisco (moon): 
From Portia (moon): 
From Moons of Neptune: 
From Moons of Saturn: 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 12:10, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Moons of Pluto]]