Talk:American Pie (song)/Archive 1

message: The article seems to lean very heavily on Beatle's lore, which may or may not have been a big influence on Don McLean.  For instance, the section on the Vietnam conflict is very small for 1) a song that has to do almost exclusively with Americana and 2) A topic that was gripping the nation at the time.  It seems almost absurd that McLean would not make reference to the war.
For instance, the lines:
While the sergeants played a marching tune/We all got up to dance/Oh, but we never got the chance!/`cause the players tried to take the field/The marching band refused to yield/Do you recall what was revealed/The day the music died?/
Might this not be referencing the LBJ public relations campaign just before the Tet Offensive in 1968, where press and government officials made it look constantly like America was winning the conflict(sergeants playing a marching tune/We all got up to dance)?    However, when the Tet Offensive occurred (players(Vietcong) tried to take the field/the marching band refused to yield), Americans got the shock that things were not going so well after all, and that we might not be winning the war (do you recall what was revealed?)
Marching tunes in America are almost synonymous with victory and patriotism.
Anon. 00:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vietnam?

message: The interpretation seems very constricted.  It's clear the song traces MacLean's path from youth to adulthood, anyone who is an adult knows we should compare our memories of youth with our adult experiences with a big caveat in mind. This song wouldn't have such popular and universal significance if the meanings were mainly parochial sectarian in nature. Huangdi 20:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Parochial interpretation

message: I started to totally remove the statment that the song is "a  standard choice for disk jockeys working alone who need a break" since, in this day of highly automated, centrally-programmed radio, DJs (when they still exist) seldom either make these "choices" or need to wait for a single long song to take a break.  I chAnged my mind but put it in past perfect tense; I also removed the list of other long songs which is off-topic and becoming contentious.  Jgm 21:10, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "bathroom break"

message: Here's the relevant section of the lyrics I'd like to discuss:
Now the half-time air was sweet perfume --Gregoe86 22:42, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not take them completely literally?  The marching band refused to yield to the players because music meant more to them than any football game.  The next lines are "do you recall what was revealed / the day the music died?"  On the day the music died, it was revealed that the music meant more than anything else possibly could. Ari 07:17, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The "marching band"

message: In this diff, Ritchy removes this snippet:
:"American Pie" has also been the last song played at every dance at the Center for Talented Youth, an academic summer program for secondary school students run by Johns Hopkins University, for roughly 20 years.
Saying "rv - anyone got a source for that? 'cause it sounds like joke vandalism to me...". Now, I don't have a source, but I have gone to two CTY programs, and I can vouch for the veracity of that statement. Cross-reference with Center for Talented Youth, which talks about it... but... that article has a . I don't have a source though. Original research, eh? I'm sure we can turn up something on google though, but it'll be a few somewhat unprofessional CTY fansites and blogrings. I haven't reverted the edit as it's somewhat "trivia"-ish, but it's true. — Ambush Commander(Talk) 22:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The latest issue of The CTYer, the official CTY alumni newsletter, discusses American Pie's use at CTY dances and includes an interview with Don McLean about said use. It can be found right now at CTY and American Pie, though I don't know how long that site will stay up. There is a print edition, so this has some permanence to it, and it's a legitimate official source. Ferret-aaron 06:20, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Skepticism and Original Research 

message: Including citations in this article is tricky but we need to overcome the challenge.  McLean must be a primary source.  He hasn't been mum about "American Pie".  To the contrary, he insists, "In fact, Don McLean has spent 30 years doing little else but talk about American Pie!"
.  Careful readers of McLean's website will find that Bob Dearborn's interpretation is specifically mentioned.  Even more careful readers will find an archive of articles, some of which may have previously appeared as features on the website.  In particular, the "American Pie" archive article  was originally drafted by one Alan Howard, who is identified as McLean's "Official Biographer".  Howard's archived article points to two additional interpretations (to be used as secondary sources) that I now feel should be used to draft this Wikipedia article -- they are Jim Fann's interpretation (already included) and Saul Levitt's interpretation (not currently included) on .  However, these references carry a warning -- Howard says, "Any evaluation of the accuracy of these theories should be put into the context of the detailed remarks that Don McLean has made about the song over the past 30 years."  I agree.  We should include interpretations that are consistent with or correlate very closely with known facts about: (1) McLean's life because McLean says "American Pie" is autobiographical; and (2) American popular music history because McLean says the song is about the evolution of music during the 1960s.  Additional material should be included that are consistent with other known additional themes in the song -- namely, drug culture, the anti-war movement, and religion.  I've started citing the article extensively and could use some help.
--Dkwong323 07:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References in this article 

message: Is there a reason we've grouped this article by subject matter instead of by verse or line? Would it be too long to add the song lyrics (followed by applicable interpretations) as well as its current form? Daemon8666 20:16, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For sure, writing down the entire lyrics and their interpretation line by line would be a good way to present this article. Unfortunately, the lyrics are copyrighted, so we can't do that. For more detail, check the "Lyrics?" discussion just above. -- Ritchy 15:23, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Listing by subject seems more encyclopedic. Some subjects overlap, so if it were listed by verse it would look  more like a messy list than an article -- Astrokey44|talk 00:20, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Arrangement

message: Much of the lyrical interpretation seems to be (at best) a bit sketchy. It all reads as POV at the moment (no sources whatsoever) and surely qualifies as original research. There are some fairly clear POV comments (e.g. Vietnam, especially). Needs rewriting, referencing, and NPOV'ing. Badgerpatrol 02:45, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Interpretation

message: I cleaned up and tried to NPOV the comment in the Apocalypse interpretation section a bit. I don't think it should be in there at all really, I question where the line between including every random interpretation written of the song, no matter how fringe and keeping the article focused on the song itself should be. Including anything more than a citation of any random group that chooses to come up with an interpretation of this song seems a bit like turning this into fodder for soapboxing and advertising. Just my opinion though, thought I should mention it. Perhaps if any interpretation is valid a seperate page for interpetations of the song would be appropriate.
Phil 07:39, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-Semitism 

message: Wasn't there a song by the Byrds, could that be relevant to the phrase?
Supposedly 1966...
The birds flew off to a fallout shelter,
Eight miles high and falling fast.
Yes, there are references to The Byrds' "Eight Miles High" in two sections of "The American Pie (song)" article: one is in the section on The Byrds; the other is the section on Apocalyse and nuclear war.  The song has an interesting history that you can read in the Wikipedia article "Eight Miles High".  Roger McGuinn, the master guitarist who helped write the song, talks about its meaning and also performs it in a XM radio interview now available in mp3 format.  If you're an emusic.com subscriber you can download and listen to it.
--Dkwong323 02:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eight miles high 

message: We have an article currently at American Pie (Madonna song).  I suggest that whatever is actually verifiable from that article could fit in a paragraph in this location.  Jkelly 01:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We try to make sure to keep to a "one article per song" rule of thumb.  If the article is really too long, and I am not sure that it is, we can help the reader find the Madonna cover information by linking to the section from the lead.  Jkelly 17:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cover of song needs merging

message: And while the king was looking down,
The jester stole his thorny crown
I remember reading somewhere that the King here is 'Elvis Presley'. The lines and while the king was looking down, the jester stole his thorny crown refers to Dylan usurping Elvis from the no 1 position at that time. Does anyone else agree with this viewpoint? Amath 21:00, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jester and King reference 

message: From Wiki article on Little Richard (Penniman): "Many of his fans have proclaimed Richard as The Real King of Rock 'n' Roll (in reference to the deceased Elvis Presley, who's known by the moniker "The King of Rock 'n' Roll")...  Little Richard explains in his own words his experiences with homosexuality, ...in Charles White's authorized biography." 
IIRC, Little Richard at times performed wearing what was regarded as feminine-appearing makeup, such as eye shadow. 
I've heard him mentioned as the "Queen" in "American Pie", as both a reference to his status as the leader ("King") of R&B/Soul and as a pun on his sexuality and appearance. Under this interpretation, folk/protest music (Dylan) stole the "crown" (of popular music) from Rock 'n Roll (Elvis) and from Soul (Little Richard). -- Unimaginative Username 19:00, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Why not mention Little Richard as possibly being "The Queen"?

message: I only remember a few lines from this, such as "Bye, bye to the last digit of pi, ran my PC on some DC but the DC was dry, and good old boys were sending email replies saying this will be the day I retire" and "And while Bill Gates was looking pleased, Time took all his monopolies, The courtroom was adjourned, no verdict was returned."  I saw it in 1999 in an email.  Very good.
Actually that's quite horrible. People who can't write shouldn't pretend they can.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.42 (talk) 18:01, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Y2K parody

message: For instance, in an episode in Futurama, They ask if they should sing AMERICAN PIE, when trapped in a space shuttle. -The Bird66.154.192.129 15:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shold we talk about this song in popular culture? 

message: "a rolling stone don't gather no moss" is also a line from Buddy Holly's "Early in the Morning."
*An interesting coincidence. Hard to tell if McLean had that fact in mind as well as the obvious reference to the Stones group. That expression, of course, has been around for many generations, usually given a little more grammatically: "A rolling stone gathers no moss." Don't rule out the possibility that the Stones themselves might have heard that song, as they were Holly admirers. Wahkeenah 01:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  rolling stone 

message: The Wikimedians who worked on this did a great job! I might as well call it, "The American Pie Code." I mean, there's no definite meaning to the lyrics, right? I think that they really did do a great job, expressing opinion without being opinionistic.
*In a peculiar sort of way, this song compares with America the Beautiful, and here's why: There has to be a distinction between what "inspired" a set of lyrics vs. what they "mean". This article focuses mostly on the specific events that inspired them. However, McLean won't address those items. A true work of art says more than that. It speaks to a larger truth, in this case the loss of innocence, which most can relate to and hear in this song, even if they don't know the specific inspirations. When Katherine Bates wrote about the "purple mountain majesties" and the "alabaster city's gleam", she was inspired by Pike's Peak and by the Columbian Exposition, but again she was using them as metaphors; the song still works, even for those who know nothing of the 1893 fair, because it sings about American idealism as much as about those specific things. Wahkeenah 08:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wow!!! 

message: Did Pearl Jam do a cover of it? If so, why isn't it mentioned in the cover versions?
In the article listing covers performed by Pearl Jam, it's listed as that they did a cover of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_covered_by_Pearl_Jam  Check out. 
Anyone can confirm this? I've recently seen an acoustic version of "Daughter" by "Pearl Jam" labeled as "American Pie" on some p2p (on Gnutella network). Perhaps this could be the reason. Anyone can clarify this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.1.192.6 (talk) 12:07, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cover versions - Pearl Jam cover