Talk:Ronnie Earle

message: I've reorganized the page.  Please help me fill in the sections.
Solidmelts2air 02:59, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I've heard claims this evening that Earle dropped charges against four corporations after they agreed to pay money into some sort of advocacy group based around the principle that business is harmful to democracy.  I also understand that when he prosecuted Sen. Hutchinson on the first go of the trial, after delaying (no pun intended) for a year, he refused to lay out his argument against her, she was acquitted and he then invited members of the media to his hotel room to show them the evidence for the trial that did not take place.  There's a lot of really interesting accusations of conflicts of interest and even extortion by this prosecutor out there, it would be nice if we could get some of them investigated and included from NPOV if any of them pans out as true.  There was also apparently some sort of speech he gave three weeks ago to a DNC group where he referred to DeLay as a "bully" who must be taken out.
See:  http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.p?ref=/york/york200506200910.asp
*Above comment by 69.212.2.169 (user's 4th and 5th edits, respectively). Please sign your posts by adding four tildes (~~~~) at the end. Also, please note that it is not Wikipedia's place to 'get things investigated'; we merely report what can be verified by reliable sources, not merely claims that someone may have heard or 'interesting accusations'. Cheers! -- BD2412 talk 04:27, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accusations of un-ethical behaviour 

message: I don't see any reason why this article should be littered with quotations from other politicians and editorial pages every few paragraphs.  For that reason, I have created a section called "what others have said about Earle."  If there is a good reason why this is a bad idea, please let me know on the talk page.  Thanks.  Solidmelts2air 21:25, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  organization 

message: The Dallas Morning News 10-24-1996 "Facing opposition, Travis DA defends record: Earle denies abuse of power, partisanship" Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:45, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cheerleader source: 

message: It was not a self prosecution, that would be a major major ethical breach. It was reporting himself to a judge, different thing entirely. I looked at the rest of the article and could not find mention of it. If it is important enough to mention in the opening paragraph it should not be resolved through a 'see below' to an additional info section. I expanded the explanation so that the see below was not needed--Gorgonzilla 00:27, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I would suspect that if you can provide information on those "trumped up charges and over-enforced jaywalking-style violations of the law" from nuetral soruces, they would be welcomed by everyone. While he did merely pay a "late fee", he at least paid it instead of whatever the alternative way of handling it is. I hesitate to compare him to others who confessed and took punishment before being accused, since that would equate him to them, but it is a nice thing to see in a politician, regardless of his leanings. I do think we need to use another term, as "self-prosecution" doesn't sound like the legal way to describe it at least (and sounds very POV also). --Habap 16:47, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Christian Science Monitor story that the opening paragraph links says that Earle "walked in to file charges for improper campaign-finance reporting. Against himself." But, notwithstanding the notorious accuracy of newspaper reporters, I doubt that saying Earle "filed charges against himself" holds water any better than "prosecuted himself." I've changed it to "turned himself in." Read the story and you'll see, as Gorgonzilla has pointed out, that's what he did. Overall, however, I'd say that the NPOV of this article suffers by opening with this transparently bald-faced and self-serving publicity stunt. Rather than deleting it, I'm contemplating moving it under the "Other politicians investigated by Earle" header as I await further input from some of you fine Wikipedians who are so hard at work on this controversial article on this controversial man. ô¿ô 10:55, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it is not that important, but if it is mentioned in the opening the opening should describe it as turning himself in not 'self prosecution' and needs to explain the circumstances. The article makes it sound as if the judge gave the story rather than Earle. --Gorgonzilla 18:26, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self prosecution 

message: The article implies that Earle had a bias against conservative Democrats (stating "He failed to mention, however, that all the Democrats he had gone after were conservatives"), but was he a conservative Democrat himself? He was in the Texas legislature in the 70s, when the Democrats at the state level were as conservative (or more so) than the Republicans. It would be most interesting to see how he voted on issues like the death penalty, abortion, obscenity, etc. -- BD2412 talk 05:02, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: OTOH, Earle was/is elected out of Travis County, which has been a liberal hotbed for decades. Travis County was more liberal than other "Democratic" counties in the 1970's and it's more liberal than almost all other Texas counties today. If Earle reflects the people who elect him, it would not be surprising if he was as liberal in the 70's as he is today. Rangerdude 06:24, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How do we know he's liberal today? Indicting a conservative doesn't automatically mean he's liberal, although the few political statements I've seen attributed to him make him seem strongly against corporate influence on elections, but I think that's the general American sentiment. -- BD2412 talk 13:20, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just look at several of the groups he gives speeches to. You can also look at the politics of the constituency he represents and the other candidates that he has donated money to. In each case they are significantly to the left of the center in Texas politics. There's nothing inherently good or bad about him being liberal compared to the rest of the state's politics, but these word games that are aimed at deflecting attention from a fact that is well recognized throughout Texas politics are just plain silly. Nor is it far fetched to say that many of Earle's high profile enemies within the Democratic party came from that party's conservative wing. Bob Bullock - one of Earle's biggest adversaries when he was alive - was a well known conservative Democrat who even supported George Bush for President. Rangerdude 17:51, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, Rangerdude for daring to speak the truth.  All the PC nonsense in this and related articles is just laughable to a Texan.  Of course Ronnie Earle is a left-wing idealogue who engages in battles with conservative Democrats & Republicans.  Of course Ronnie Earle has largely indicted his political enemies.  But the completely truth-ignorant Wiki police won't let you tell those truths. It'd be laughable if it wasn't so blatantly ignorant and evil.  --66.69.219.9 22:14, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please enlighten me to the truth, then, by providing some evidence - legislative voting record? Criticism to that effect written before the DeLay indictment? Statements by Earle to that effect? Saying "of course he is" is rhetoric, not evidence. Cheers! -- BD2412 talk 22:19, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Here you go: visual voting record. Happy trails from AUSTIN. --66.69.219.9 22:23, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Legislative voting record - how did Earle vote on the issues, not who voted for Earle. Nice map, tho. -- BD2412 talk 22:34, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I would think -- in this case -- it were rather Earle's indictment record that would speak with greater clarity...and for itself.--66.69.219.9 22:43, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, not if the people who were indicted were, in fact, guilty of the crimes charged (unless you can show that Earle ignored evidence of liberals engaged in the same kind of activity). -- BD2412 talk 22:50, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

text: How do we know that the dozen Democrats he prosecuted were conservative? -Willmcw 06:13, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't.  Others do...and quite well.  It's really pretty simple, as Rangerdude points out above.  Look at this picture of Texas voting results from the last presidential election.  See that little blue spot in the middle of all that red?  That is Travis County.  It is liberal, it has been liberal, it will always be liberal if for no other reason than the fact that there are some 50,000 young & immature UT college students there.  THE REST OF THE STATE IS CONSERVATIVE.  That goes for 70's-era Democrats from red counties as well.  P.S. In the graphic, the little blue spots along the Mexico border are relatively unpopulated areas.--66.69.219.9 22:30, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, Democrat-hating aside, that doesn't quite answer the question. If others do indeed know how conservative these Democrats were (quite well), then let's see some proof. I remain unconvinced, despite the DeLay media blitz. TIMBO (T A L K) 03:20, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I don't take "to-do's" from Wikipedia Talk pages.  My life is busy enough.  Sounds like a fine homework project for someone.--66.69.219.9 03:26, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a to-do. You start off your neocon BS rant by saying that "You don't [know that the Democrats Earle prosecuted were conservative].  Others do...and quite well." If you're going to spew such arrogance, wrapped as it was in a bouquet of mind-numbingly infantile hatred for Democrats, then you have to put up or shut up. Otherwise nobody will listen to you ... which I suppose is already taking place. TIMBO (T A L K) 14:47, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Well sorry I don't take anonymous posters who introduce POV spin from politicians into articles as fact. If you want the claims to remain be prepared to justify them. --Gorgonzilla 00:24, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I have to concur with the Limehead. If you wish to make an assertion that all those prosecuted were conservative democrats, then the burden of proof rests with you. If everyone knows that they all are, it shouldn't be too hard to find quotes or articles confirming that. --Habap 16:14, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conservative Democrat? 

message: I removed the section on the Texas bar rules governing prosecutions from the discussion of the film. There is absolutely no information that indicates what Earle has said to the film makers. The speculation about possible ethical breaches is utterly unfounded and point of view. It has not be raised by any cited mainstream comentator. This may be how they do things on Fox News, it is not how they are done here. We do not even know if the film will be released before the trial date. --Gorgonzilla 04:10, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The film 

message: So, I saw that the Texas Constitution is cited as authorizing "unique powers" to the Travis County DA. While the online version of the Texas Constitution does indeed list the TC DA's unique power, it concerns the Texas Mobility Fund, not whether he can prosecute politicians. I'm confused. Does he have special, unique powers or is it just that a national figure is being prosecuted for a crime that was alleged committed in Travis County? Or is it just like the Dukes County DA? (Think "Kennedy" and "bridge") --Habap 19:04, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I know it's only a day, but I am really curious what special prosecutorial powers are identified in the Texas Consitution. I just can't find it and I think we look silly if we assert that it's in there and it isn't. --Habap 14:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

text: No one responded, so I removed the reference to the constitution and rearranged the section so that it made more sense to me. It could probably use word-smithing and a check to make sure I have not changed the meaning by re-arranging. --Habap 21:42, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Unique Powers

message: The same old POV insertion attack is taking place here. Large amounts of copy were added into the article that repeat defense assertions as fact.
* On the issue of the film, identify the specific statements in the film that breach prosecutorial code. 
* The issue of whether Texas law did not ban the financial dealings until 2002 is disputed. The law was revised to add a specific reference to electoral contributions in 2002 but there was no exclusion in the earlier text. 
* The statements about what is prosecutorial misconduct are POV personal research.
We will find out what the law is on these matters soon enough.--Gorgonzilla 03:16, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Gorgonzilla - It's fine to dispute the neutrality of the text, but please do not mass-delete multiple paragraphs of text by dismissing them all as POV. Per wikipedia's style guides, the solution is to add to the text and clean up its language - not wipe it clean. Rangerdude 18:17, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Oh I understand a lawyer trying to make a defense brief which is essentially what you are attempting to turn the article into. As you yourself admit you know some of the parties, you seem to operate in the manner of the Texas GOP, you show all the arrogance and contempt. I have read opinions from law professors who are rather more eminent than anonymous IP addresses that claim that the arguments of the DeLay lawyers are hogwash. We will soon see the result of the defense motions. --Gorgonzilla 04:18, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think efforts to slam Earle through the article are going to wind down soon, as it seems that the Republicans are preparing to cut the strings on DeLay and let him hang in the wind on his own. This scathing critique of DeLay by conservative commentator George Will forecasts this strategy - Will basically excoriates DeLay as a 'big government big spender', and practically calls for DeLay's ouster based on the matters prompting the indictment.  BD2412 talk 22:15, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV insertion 

message: The only thing that should be described as a 'charge' in this article is a criminal charge brought by a state or federal prosecutor. A claim made by a defense lawyer is not a charge except in sloppy journaleese. An allegation of professional misconduct is only notable if reported to the relevant bar association.
None of this happened. In fact all the washington post story reports is the usual huffing and puffing that defense lawyers do if regardless of whether their client is Slobodan Milosevic or Mother Theresa. In any case this complaint is entirely subordinate to the DeLay prosecution and the placement of the section above the DeLay section only shows that Long John Siler is up to yet more sockpupetry. Again, choose one ID and stick to it. --Gorgonzilla 00:55, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Charges' against earle 

message: It makes no sense to have the complaint against Earle as a free-floating section in advance of the Tom DeLay indictment, especially since the section begins by saying an indictment was filed without indicating until the following sentence who filed it and what for. It creates the appearance that a complaint was filed, and the indictment came after (and perhaps was a retaliation for) the complaint, rather than vice-versa.  BD2412 talk 18:24, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Narrative flow regarding complaint against Earle 

message: Anon User:209.247.222.94  appears to have violated the 3rr rule. See  for details. I suggest that before making further reversions or deletions, that user discuss the proposed changes in the talk page. Most notably, there is a clear divergence of opinions about Abramoff's relevance to this article.  
Thanks. --CSTAR 17:24, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I only see two reverts. Can you list the specific "diffs" at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR? Thanks, -Willmcw 21:25, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

text: And yes, discussion of editing changes about controversial topics is a good idea. -Willmcw 21:26, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I had considered the ensemble of the first three edits as a revert; was I mistaken? (That's why I said "appears" since I'm not too familiar with wikipedia legalese) In any case, I did not block that user. My intention was to encourage discussion of that controversial deletion before it went through another cycle. --CSTAR 21:48, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

text: User:209.247.222.94 and  User:209.247.222.85 are  sockpuppets. Any further revert by either may lead to a block of both. --CSTAR 03:13, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  He also seems to be sockpuppeting as 'John Henry'. He has been removing large amounts of relevant content from the Abramoff related sites under that nym. Attacked me for my '5th revert' on a page I had only edited once that day, strongly suggesting that this is a sock. --Gorgonzilla 03:47, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  3RR warning 

message: "Earle caused what is now known as the Abramoff-Reed Indian Gambling Scandal the full ramifications of which have not yet been felt." How can he have caused it if he wasn't the one alleged doing wrong, but rather the one investigating the alleged wrong-doing? --Habap 21:46, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite right! The people who created the scandal were Abramoff, Norquist and Reed. Earle certainly played a significant role in starting the investigation. But where that is at the moment I don't know and have not been able to find out quickly. I am under the impression that there is another prosecutor looking at that docket. Earle would not have indicted DeLay on conspiracy when the Abramoff investigation turned up some pretty clear cut bribery issues. On the other hand Earle is state not federal. --Gorgonzilla 22:27, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Abramoff-Reed Indian Gambling Scandal

message: Part of the opening summary states: "Earle has also been criticized for bringing a capital murder charge against 11-year old LaCresha Murray for the murder of Jayla Belton in 1996. Murray was sentenced to 25 years in prison on the basis of dubious circumstantial evidence and a confession made under duress."  Not only is the link an obviously biased source (where's the NEWS source on this??), but - "dubious"?  "Circumstantial"?  Says who?  For the average reader running across this, and especially as an opening summary, this is heavily biased to make Earle look bad.  Perhaps rewording would be necessary, but I would move it entirely into another section - NOT the opening summary. NoHitHair 02:42, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I wrote that in a hurry during a POV attack so it could probably be improved on. Someone had taken the original text and removed a bunch of important facts to make it look like Earle was a racist and the girl is still in prison. Having looked at Google there are 500 stories on this, only 70 of which mention Earle, almost all written after the DeLay indictment (it seems to be a DeLay inc. talking point). I tend to think that what it mostly shows is that there was a problem with the police officers. I would support moving it out of the intro, I have not seen it mentioned as an opening in any of the mainstream media accounts of Earle, it is not one of the most notable things about Earle. The investigation of Abramoff and DeLay are.--Gorgonzilla 02:53, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed a few more things.  Moved the Murray indictment from the opening and tried to make it less biased by not only adding the critics' point of view.  Now has critics and proponents.  Reworded a few things.  Seems better.  Lemme know what you think, thanks. NoHitHair 06:14, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 11 Year Old Girl Prosecution

message: I spent some time this morning to clean up some of the external references, and I added a few more relevant articles.  I had problems with the following references:
1) "Advocate for the accused, Texas-Justice's, collection of articles on Earle"
Bad reference - All copyright violations of articles.  Not stored by the original article owners.  Could be POV.  I don't think we should use it in the article.
2) "Archive of biased media articles about Earle & the Delay indictment"
Bad reference - This is not an archive, but a search through an archive.  This "reference" may get lost over time.  I don't think we should use it in the article.
3) "Webpage in support of LaCresha Murray"
Bad reference - an undocumented web page; could be purely POV.  There are no references in this article to credible news sources.  I don't think we should use it in the article.
:There was an official campaign site, that would be notable. I don't think the article should link to random blog sites but an official campaign site is relevant if it actually mentions Earle.
4) "Televised interview with William Gibson, chairman of the grand jury which indicted Delay.
Bad reference - Copyright violation of movie clip.  Not stored by the original movie clip owner.  The original source could not be identified.  Unless we find the original, I don't think we should use it in the article.
 
 kgrr talk 11:54, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: External References

message: I cut some POV out of it. Words like "persecution," "crusade," and others were floating around. I also corrected the spelling of DeLay's name a bunch of times, for good measure.--RattBoy 02:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV in DeLay Case 

message: The comments attributed to Byron York can't be found in the linked article. I'm not sure that one partisan pundit's opinion of Earle's motivations belong in an encyclopedic article, but if the comments are unsourced, removing them is a no-brainer.--RattBoy 11:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Big Buy 

message: If anybody deserved prosecution, it was this guy.  But read between the lines.... #1 Had himself deliberately wounded with 00 buckshot.  That can't be done unless you are willing to die trying.  #2 Had a cousin with a criminal background do it.  You have to be a complete idiott to trust someone like that to keep his mouth shut.  #3 Offered the cousin a state job for payment.  He'd never be able to pay up due to nepotism laws.  #4  Did it to gain sympathy.  If anything, getting wounded after 2am in a trailer park would create more questions than sympathy.
Unless someone rewrites the Martin section to sound more believable, I'm convinced Earle deliberately went after an innocent guy.  You can't make me believe that someone intellegent enough to beat a 4-term incumbant Democrat made all those stupid mistakes in staging his own shoting.  From everything I've read on the Martin case, there was no evidence other than the testimony of the cousin.  Such cases just don't go to trial, but Earle took it all the way.  If this isn't an example of abuse of power, what is?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.93.32.58 (talk) 15:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Martin debacle 

message: One of the bullet-points reads: "Bob Beckel, Democrat Party Strategist, 'I know Ronnie Earle and he's definitely a partisan Democrat.' October 14, 2005 FoxNews' Hannity & Colmes."
Unfortunately, the link provided merely shows that Beckel was on H&C. It gives neither credence nor context to the quotation. I believe the quotation should be removed. Can anyone give a reason why it should remain?--RattBoy 22:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Perception of Earle

message: I removed this paragraph from the article:
:Earle has often been accused of having a political bias. In his career as District Attorney, Earle has prosecuted more Democrats than Republicans, however it should be noted that until the past decade Texas politics consisted of warring factions within the Democratic Party.  Only in the past ten years have conservative Democrats begun been identifying themselves as Republicans, and during that time period Earle's prosecutions have swayed towards high profile Republicans.
It doesn't seem to be saying anything of substance.  Essentially, it says Earle prosecuted Democrats when Democrats controlled the state; now that Republicans control the state, he is prosecuting Republicans.  That is hardly surprising.  I think this paragraph formed as various editors revert-warred and tried to use it to argue their case, but in any case the end result seems to contain no meaningful information. --Aquillion 06:42, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prosecuted more Democrats than Republicans... 

message: The following are links to articles, which have no place as a list in a biography. I removed these from the "external links" section. Materisl must be sourced according to </references tag>. However, many of these do not appear to directly be sourcing for claims made in the article.  Arbusto 03:40, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles from 2005 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Ronnie Earle. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This section is inaccurate and focuses on one aspect of Earle's career — prosecution of politicians — which was only a small (albeit headline-grabbing portion — of Earle's impactful careeer. During Earle's tenure, the Travis County DA did, indeed, have the authority to investigate crimes involving state government and elected officials through its Public Integrity Unit, but that authority was undermined and ultimately taken away following his successor's drunk-driving arrest and conviction in 2013. This section focuses almost exclusively on Earle's prosecutions of elected officials but neglects his many innovations in criminal-justice reform, victims' rights, and restorative justice. That is Earle's true legacy. For all his accomplishments, a fair assessment of Earle's career must also reference the Oak Hill satanic ritual abuse trial, a gross miscarriage of justice that occurred midway through his long and mostly honorable career. This is far too much for me to dive into to edit immediately, but Earle was an important Texas figure with national stature, and the article about him needs improvement A.T.S. in Texas (talk) 15:46, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: If there are other aspects of his career for which sources are available, please absolutely do feel free to add them. BD2412 T 17:56, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Career as the District Attorney 

message: User -A-M-B-1996- removed the following sentence:
"The Travis County District Attorney's office investigates and prosecutes crimes related to the operation of the Texas state government."
While it is no longer true that the Travis DA has this jurisdiction, it was true during the entirety of Earle's tenure. I think the sentence should be added back with appropriately edited to convey that what was then true is no longer true. A.T.S. in Texas (talk) 18:50, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me add that I found the reorganization undertaken by -A-M-B-1996 to be quite good. A.T.S. in Texas (talk) 18:52, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Role of Travis County District Attorney's Office during Earle's Tenure