Talk:Asperger syndrome/Archive 11

message: I've recently found out that my friend has a brother with Asperger Syndrome. Whats special about them is that they're identical twins. The cause of Asperger Syndrome cant be only hereditary if my friend doesn't have Asperger Syndrome. Whats up with that? 80.178.76.191 15:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In cases of identical twins, it's often found in both (I even heard of a case of aspie triplets), but occasionally it isn't.  That doesn't mean it's not genetic, that just means that it's not 100% genetics and 0% environment.  Quite a few genetic predispositions take something to activate them, they aren't all automatic like eye color.  Rheumatoid arthritis is a good example, it's primarily genetic, but still takes one or more environmental factors to activate it, and it behaves much the same in terms of affecting twins.  http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=356909  Poindexter Propellerhead 21:57, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've heard that alot of people with family members that have Asperger Syndrome tend to show some of the symptoms, is it even possible to research this area, especially without an accurate way of diagnosing whether a person has Asperger Syndrome or not? Whats the point in research into the causes when you cant determine who has it? 80.178.89.1 10:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great point! Heredity is certainly one of the main cause, as you've said people who show said symptoms may have the same or similar symptoms such as their parents, grandparents, etc. It's one of the main causes but it certainly doesn't always turn out to be the case. -Pilotguy hold short 12:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Causes of AS

message: *If anyone has read any of the below statements, you might see a glimpse of our lives. We Aspies know it's a struggle, but honestly, I remember the words of my patron, St. Francis de Sales; "Be who you are, and be it well." Remember to take your comments here with a "c'est la vie" attitude and remember, we are all in this together, to build Wikipedia, not bring it down.--wpktsfs 04:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Please be kind

message: viz http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2988647.stm - I am sorry to hear that Aspies don't have a sense of humour...
--Ndaisley 08:12, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some Aspies do have senses of humor, some don't.  It depends on the person really.  Aspergers isn't a something with "across-the-board" symptoms, it truly depends on the person.  Like fingerprints, no two Aspies are the same.  (Full Disclosure: I, myself, am an Aspie and have a weird sense of humor)  Take Care...NeutralHomer T:C 17:04, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Forgive me, there was an element of sarcasm in my posting; as I get older I become increasingly cynical about the 'expertise' of people with letters after their name, particularly in the area of 'how people function'.  It concerns me very much when 'experts' make generalised pronouncements of the kind featured in the cited BBC page without backing up their claims.  I don't for a moment believe that most AS people are without humour. --Ndaisley 11:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  re. People - Experts on the Loose 

message: the all-too-familiar verifiable source problem : 
The referred source, kathy marshak, has a degree from the Fielding Institute, 
a distance-learning school http://www.fielding.edu/, a PhD in Psychology.
Their PhD in Psychology degrees are not accredited by the American Psychological
Association (APA), in contrast to their PhD in Clinical Psychology, which is accredited by the APA.
This seems a grey area I don't really know what to make of.
More to the point, her website makes no reference to anything she's published in an academic source, so the section seems a wash.
Thoughts?
As an aside, she is part of the aston-linehan-singer mutual endorsement ring dedicated to eradicating the scourge of scientific research in our lifetime. 
She is similarly possessed of the same disturbing fixation on MALES with
asperger's.
  from her FAQ on Asperger's :   http://www.kmarshack.com/therapy/asperger/faq.html 
  " What kind of parents are people with Asperger Syndrome?
    We are just learning about this tragedy from adults coming forward
    to tell about being raised by AS parents"
 
CeilingCrash 10:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  suggest removing remnant of Family section 

message: What do y'all think about a new section concerning the long term development of children on the spectrum?
"One central finding of the study, said Dr. Coplan, is that children in the normal range of intelligence (an IQ of 70 or above) show significant improvement in their ASD symptoms over time. "We can offer the hopeful message to parents that many children with ASD will improve as part of the natural course of the condition," he said. This finding reinforced impressions by Dr. Coplan and many previous researchers about clinical outcomes for children with ASD."
http://stokes.chop.edu/publications/press/?ID=181
This is one of a crop of such studies, serious long-term data collection (in the US anyway) didn't start until about 10 years,and is now coming to fruition.
This information also serves to make people weary of the snake-oil cures which may be taking credit for this natural progression.
CeilingCrash 19:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section suggestion : Emerging evidence for long-term improvement 

message: In this talk section (above somewhere), Judy Singer claims she coined the term "neurodiversity."   The wiki article on Neurodiversity credits her for this in a paper published in 1999.
I discovered her claim is false, that it was coined in 1998 by Harvey Blume.
I have corrected the article to give him proper credit.   If anyone (especially Ms Singer) wishes to comment, please see Talk:Neurodiversity.
CeilingCrash 22:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neurodiversity : not Judy Singer's word after all 

message: I just wanted to keep the language moderated and avoiding the "getting rid of" kind of conversation.  I think talking about removing Asperger's is overly negative.  I am not fixed on this.  Alex Jackl 12:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Removing" Asperger's 

message: All of this could by BS launched by "Big Pharma". See Jeff Rense's website for more about "diseases". 205.240.144.220 06:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pharma BS

message: What do you do when you're an adult and find out that every problem described with AS nails every major problem in your own life?
Rhudi 04:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with the above person.  I found out only after my son (who has it more dramatically than I do in spades) was diagnosed and his neurologist recommended I get myself tested.  It helped me develop some more sophisticated and dramatically successful coping mechanisms. I got a lot of peace of mind. Alex Jackl 16:35, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  I was tested by an expert in adult Asperger's recommended by my son's neurologist.  She was very useful. She also told me I fit the criterion but I had a very, very mild case.  She recommended doing nothing different than I had been doing... Alex Jackl 04:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Helping "late bloomers"? 

message: Should the article include anything about the "AssBurgers" thing? Mike(Talk)/(Cont) 00:52, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do hope you are talking about pronunciation66.176.172.119 00:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text: If you are referring simply to how AS is often referred to that way as a joke (or whatever you want to call it), then no. It's not important enough to mention. --DearPrudence 04:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text: If you're refering to the pronunciation that I agree the phoentic pronunciation should be included. However that's it? -- Rehnn83 Talk 09:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Mentioning this might actually be useful.  This homophone is very confusing, especially since most people are completely oblivious to the term "Asperger's."  For example, a young man I know was trying to explain to his teacher that he had AS, and only referred to it as "Asperger's."  The teacher thought that he was saying "Ass Burgers," and sent him to the principal's office.  Sure, the term "Ass Burgers" has been used as a joke on television shows (i.e. Becker), but this homophone issue goes beyond a simple joke.  The non-joke side of it might warrant it being mentioned briefly in the article.  --Dulcimerist 23:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  AssBurgers? 

message: With regard to this:
:Children with AS can learn to manage their differences, but they may continue to find social situations and personal relationships challenging. Adults with AS are able to work successfully in mainstream jobs and live an independent life.
needing a citation. Should I just upload a scan of one of my payslips? Damburger 00:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, Damburger. --DearPrudence 01:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree with this as well.  The notable people with AS section in the article is plenty citation in itself to support the statements. --Dulcimerist 23:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation? Are you kidding? 

message: Can someone please tell me who supplied the following. The quote isnt referenced and I would like s source. MY email is joelbeasant@hotmail.com
In 1982 Becker and Gersten found that ABA techniques were indeed educationally beneficial because they provide "motivational programs based on positive reinforcement such as a token system and a systematic task analysis for developing academic skills". ABA also promotes the foundation for academic and living skills. Once certain skills have been acquired, it is possible through ABA to generalize these skills and add new skills to the "existing repertoire through various techniques of shaping, extinction, backward chaining, and prompting". (Schreibman, 1975, Sulzer & Mayer, 1972, Wolery et al, 1988)
:Try looking through the history, like most people would...and try SIGNING your posts! SmUX 17:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Becker and Gersten quote 

message: I made some additions based on my own personal experience with AS. I hope it is OK. Sykee 14:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One may check-Lyons & Fitzgerald's, Humor in Autism and Asperger Syndrome (Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, Volume 34).
 
If making major changes, it's better to propose thos changes here on the discussion page first.  That way all of us have better communication in developing this article as a team, and everyone can have some good input.  Thanks!  :)  --Dulcimerist 19:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes

message: I am curious as to why this is up for cleanup.  If it was a featured article and is "one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community", then why would it require cleanup?  I, personally, see nowhere in the article that cleanup is necessary.  If it is, please let me know where and I will glad to cleanup where needed, but I think the article is great as is.  Take Care....NeutralHomer T:C 03:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and full disclosure, I, myself, have Aspergers. - NeutralHomer T:C 03:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved the existing cleanup tag from one section of the article to the top of the article, because of citations needed, listiness, handwaving original research, unformatted refs, external jumps, non-reliable sources, and more.  The WP:FAR was less than a year ago, and the article has completely fallen apart again, so will need to come up for its third FAR soon, if the article isn't restored to status.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I will probably kick myself for this, but what is FAR? - NeutralHomer T:C 05:02, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: FAR = Featured Article Review (I might be wrong about the "Review" part, but that's the basic idea.) --DearPrudence 05:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I hate to admit, but I might not be able to look at this objectively, since I have Aspergers myself and personally to me, this all sounds right.  Due to my own Aspergers, it might be a conflict of interest, if you will.  The more I read, the more I go "this sounds OK to me".  Perhaps I should leave this up to others you can be objective and don't have the conflict of interest that I have.  If I can help in any other way, please let me know, I am willing to help.  My apologizes....NeutralHomer T:C 05:10, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You can do it if you don't focus on what it says, rather focus on whether it's cited, if the cite is reliable, if the ref is formatted correctly, etc. It's not whether it sounds right; it's whether we can prove a reliable source said so :-)  And then, whether the article conforms to WP:WIAFA, WP:MOS and lots of other guidelines that featured articles should meet.  Right now, the article has gotten off track of WP:WIAFA, and it's not about whether it sounds right; it's about the fact that we must cite everything to reliable sources (not commercial or self-published, preferably peer-reviewed), avoid original research, write in a compelling way (without unnecessary lists), and conform to Wiki's manual of style.  You can go up to the ArticleHistory at the top of this talk page, and click on the version that passed FAR; it wasn't great, but it was much better shape than now. WP:FAR = featured article review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I hope the following comment is taken in a constructive and light-hearted tone : Screw the FAR.  That's right, screw it.  This article has been evolving thru extensive and exhaustive debate to reflect a plurality of views on what is possibly the single most controversial issue in psychology/neurology.   The lede paragraph should not be compelling, it should be accurate.  It should reflect the plurality of views, however hedging.  I'm all for fixing broken links, and tracking down unverifiable sources, and double-checking language.   I don't see how images could possibly be relevant to 95% of this article.   Asperger's is not a topic with a lot of popular appeal, it is controversial, complex and often confused.   We should tell it like it is.  Here at wiki - and nowhere else - we are free to choose truth (or accuracy) above any other consideration.  Let us not waste that unique privilege.CeilingCrash 19:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Curious

message: Questions of bias aside, the Social Impact section has non credible sources and is non encyclopedic.  I *think* this decision had already been reached here, the section deleted, and somebody put it back in.  The sources are no good, and the content declares what an Aspie *needs to do*, which is of dubious veracity and not germaine to what Asperger's IS.
The National Autistic Society is not a peer-reviewed source of academic quality; neither is anything from Jessica Kingsley Publishers.   Given all the academic-quality research being done on Asperger's, there is no reason for us to use any sources less credible.
Not to get into dispute over content, but Attwood's "theory of mind" has been universally rejected by later clinicians, and probably wouldn't have published in a peer-reviewed source.
: Er ... nobody seems to be home in discussion.  I'll zap this section.   But you guys don't want me running around unsupervised in general.   I'm a crazy person ... CeilingCrash 19:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  Declaring what an Aspie "needs to do" is subjective language.  Wiki articles should contain objective language.  If good sources can be found which list some of the common AS social issues, that would be fine in this section.  --Dulcimerist 21:57, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Social Impact Section should be removed 

message: Proposed change, "Asperger's syndrome (also referred to as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the Autistic spectrum. It manifests in various ways and can have both positive and negative effects. It is typically characterized by issues with social and communication skills. Due to the mixed nature of its effects, it remains controversial among researchers, physicians, and people who are diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome."
to
"Asperger's syndrome (also referred to as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger's disorder, Asperger's, or AS) is a condition on the Autistic spectrum. It manifests in individual ways and can have both positive and negative effects on a person's life. Issues with social communication (verbal and non-verbal) are nearly universal to those with Asperger's. Other characteristics vary greatly from person to person, these include : sensory integration/sensitivity issues, repetitive behavior, and 'stimming' behavior such as rocking [reference].  Positive characteristics have also been observed and vary greatly: enhanced memory, an advanced grasp of languaged as early as age 5 [reference], and mathematical talent [reference] which, in once case at least, is of historic impact [reference to Giorgi Perelman].    Due to the mixed nature of its effects, Asperger's remains controversial among researchers, physicians, and people with the diagnosis.
208.49.146.130 17:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paragraph one, ironing out ... 

message: I didn't notice any mention of stemming in this article, even though this is a distinguishing characteristic.  Angry Aspie 01:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you mean stimming? "In some cases, people with AS may have an odd way of walking, and may display compulsive finger, hand, arm or leg movements,[41] including tics and stims." The Wednesday Island 01:47, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stemming 

message: The link for the AQ questionnaire is an online dating site which requires one's e-mail before spitting out a result. 67.49.247.73 18:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Deleted.  Why'd you remove the PMID and ISBN from the references above?  WLU 18:38, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  AQ Questionnaire 

message: Seriously tho' I have been known to have a few of these symptoms.  Bassium!
:Having a few of the symptoms does not necessarily mean that you have AS, but if you really think you have it and want your suspicions confirmed, you should consider seeing a professional for a diagnosis. Unless it is unquestionably clear by the description of AS that you have it, a self-diagnosis is a bad idea. (I am not saying that you don't have it, necesssarily, just trying to give you some advice.) --DearPrudence 04:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I may actually have this! 

message: I finally got that put in, sorry for the long delay.  CeilingCrash, would you happen to have a page number for citation #1?  I don't have that book. Poindexter Propellerhead 07:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New opening para in place

message: The average human has atleast one phobia. I don't see why fear of flushing toilets is any less rational than fear of buttons or string. Why is this connected to Asperger Syndrome? 80.178.59.139 22:22, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Although the sentence you refer to is neither crystal clear or cited, I think what they're trying to say is that an aspie kid may appear to have an irrational fear of something like toilets flushing, vaccuum cleaners, etc., because the noise puts them into sensory overload. So it isn't an irrational fear at all, just the appearance of one. I'd clean that sentence up if it were sourced, but it's not. :-/ Poindexter Propellerhead 22:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: well, the sentence i used was heard on a movie. a quick search on google said that 10% of all americans suffer from some kind of phobia, while wikipedia mentions that 10-15% of children have it. wrongdiagnosis.com said theres no statistics for the prevalence of phobias, but stated 3.7% of all americans suffer from social phobia. this just suggests its a very, very common thing. (perhaps even more common than statistics show). maybe what i said wasnt accurate, but the point was. (heres the wrongdiagnosis.com page on prevalence of phobias.) 80.178.59.139 22:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a non reliable source to me, and should be removed. --Michael Johnson 23:06, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Or perhaps the word "aversion" (sourceable) should be replaced for "fear"; this describes the behavior without presuming to know the emotional state of the aspie.
On the other hand, anxiety and depression are well documented to often accompany asperger's; i'm not sure what the original author was trying to say.   Certainly an aspie will learn to fear certain situations an NT will not, especially those he is less competent in.  On a personal note, NT's scare the bejeezus out of me :-bCeilingCrash 19:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irrational fears 

message: i'm wondering about this. what are the differences between PDD-NOS and asperger syndrome? the only visible difference i can see is motor function problems - and i know some, diagnosed with asperger syndrome, who dont have motor function problems. is their diagnosis incorrect? 80.178.59.139 08:31, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My impression is that PDD-NOS gets used as a catch-all category for people who seem a little autistic, but who don't seem to quite mesh with one of the more specific sets of PDD criteria. A diagnosis of Asperger's (per DSM) doesn't require any motor function problems at all, so that isn't likely to be what the diagnostician was thinking of in choosing between the two. All kinds of funny things can affect what someone is diagnosed with; the background of the diagnostician, coverage rules of particular medical insurers, and so on. In some cases, you'd probably have to ask the diagnostician before you'd be able to get it all sorted out. (Look at discussion of the AS/HFA diagnosis quandry for another example of this sort of thing.) Poindexter Propellerhead 18:38, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: so lets assume we have a person who can get diagnosed with three different things - HFA, AS and PDD-NOS. are there any advantages or disadvantages to getting diagnosed with one of those, and not another? would a HFA person have an easier time getting benefits than a PDD-NOS/AS person? 80.178.72.69 20:17, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite possibly, depending on the policies of their state/province and/or federal government, and the rules of their private insurance carrier (if any). Poindexter Propellerhead 21:03, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, in the USA, for instance, HFA isn't recognized in our DSM.   Without a DSM code, doctors cannot bill insurers. CeilingCrash 02:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Differences between AS and PDD-NOS 

message: for personal announcements or information.   For example, tomorrow is CeilingCrash's birthday.   He is going to be 41.   Not only would such an announcement on the Talk pages be entirely-out-of-place, but provides us a vivid example of a shameless request for Happy Birthday notices.
CeilingCrash 19:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for that clear warning. We would of course normally delight in withing CeilingCrash "Happy Birthday" and "Best Wishes", but as you point out this is, unfortunately, entirely inappropriate. --Michael Johnson 23:00, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid I have to concur. Someone needs to give CC 41 spanks as punishment for his brazen vandalism of this page. Poindexter Propellerhead 00:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now THERE'S an idea...can we, at least, join hands in a circle and sing "A very happy unbirthday to you"? --Zeraeph 10:56, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The talk pages are not 

message: Now, we're not here to determine truth, rather, verifiability.   But it's verifiability to credible sources, credible literally meaning "believable", so we get tangled up in truth despite our fervent vow to the contrary.
Attwood has said some things that are ... disturbing ... in the sense of his being a present RS.   On the one hand, the man is huge in Asperger's, he is literally over 7,000 feet tall.    On the other hand, he is beginning to say stuff that isn't just false (let he without sin ...) but absurd prima face
In fairness to Attwood, excerpts from talks should not be given the same weight as work he has published and submitted to peer review.   It is *very* easy to make an incomplete extemporaneous remark, response to a question, or be taken out of context.
We've also got to be careful with Attwood; the book that made him famous was a general survey of the topic, not new research (Attwood, Tony. Asperger's Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals, Jessica Kingseley Publishers).   This book was not peer reviewed nor subject to other academic standards.   I got curious about kingsley publishers and actually went thru most of the manuscript submission process.   If you pay them, they will print anything you want.   Editing costs extra.   If you want peer review, you provide them names of ppl who vouche for it.
Now, Attwood's fame and the world-recognized quality of his first book well compensate for this oddity, I believe.   But Attwood, unlike his classmate Baron-Cohen, has never done any scientific research (please somebody correct me if i'm wrong on this point.)  He himself repeatedly warns his conclusions are based on clinical data (experience with patients wandering in).   This introduces the now familiar Selection Bias problem that led freud to conclude the psyche could be cured by the application of greek mythology to the genitals.
With this background in mind, here are some things he has said.   Above we have the star-trek convention remark.   Here Attwood actively discourages partners of Aspies some seeking professional help, and guides them to 'grass root' internet forums : 
"With Asperger's, life is a stage," Attwood said.  "The curtain goes up while they are in public and down when they are at home.  Because other people do not see the problem, they question your sanity - you are on your own.  In some families, denial has held the family together for generations, and you want to bring down the scaffolding."  ...
"You cannot get this knowledge from professionals.  contact with other partners through newsletters, a support group, or an Internet site is vital"
[This is a disgraceful abdication of his own profession.   The reason you can't get this information from professionals is that it is unsubstantiated and indefensible.   Attwood could write this into his next book, thus making it available from professionals - but he knows that he can't.   The implication that only partners of aspies are fit to counsel other partners is troubling as well.   
A neuropsych disorder is no place for anti-intellectual folk psychology]
[There is another quotation where he says Aspie husband fall into 3 categories, all of which are bad.  i'll insert it later.]
Attwood nowhere suggests the NT may be the source of trouble in a relationship.  (There are lots more ways to be screwed up than the A. Spectrum!)
What is driving Attwood?   Where is the voice of reason, "if you're having trouble in a relationship with an Aspie, get yourself some professional and qualified advice and by the way - don't forget you may be the problem ..."
I can only guess.   It is worth noting that, autism began in the domain of psychology but is moving to the realm of neurology, psychopharmacology and genetics.   There isn't all that much for a psychologist to do for us.   They did enuf damage with the Ice Box mom theory already.
But partners of Aspies - cha-ching!   Traumatized by life events ... let's have a ... workshop !!!
Attwood and Aston do business together, along with an organization called FAAAS.  They put on workshops here in the US, Attwood speaks, he gets paid, promotes his books as well.   Along with Karen Rodman, founder of FAAAS, they form a transnational unholy trinity spanning the US, UK, and Australia.     
Aston always - always - references attwood in her essays to get reflected credibility.   She likes to put her name and his in the same sentence.   Aston publishes through - you guessed it - Jessica Kingseley Publishers, so there are no pesky issues with peer review or even editing.
And worst of all, Attwood's latest book, The Complete Guide to Asperger’s Syndrome
, has a very stange last chapter.   All about relationships, filled with references to Aston (who has done no scientific research.)   But check the bibliography - the last chapter doesn't exist.   It appears the last chapter was added late in the publication process, after all his other sources were vetted.  For Attwood to expend his credibility on the likes of Aston seems tragic to me.
I should close by saying that I believe Tony is a man of great intellect and great heart who appears to respect and even admire some aspie differences.    But I believe there are serious questions as to Attwood's credibility.   Remember his publications slipped by peer review, i think he has used up his free 'pass' at this point and we have to look at him more critically.  My issue with Attwood is not political.   Baron Cohen has said some pretty vile things, but he backs them up with research so i hold my tongue.
I may cross-post this to the main Asp talk page ... </rant> CeilingCrash
This is just SO irresponsible. Attwood is about to get a personal flea in his ear from me on this:
***
"With Asperger's, life is a stage," Attwood said. "The curtain goes up while they are in public and down when they are at home. Because other people do not see the problem, they question your sanity - you are on your own. In some families, denial has held the family together for generations, and you want to bring down the scaffolding." ...
"You cannot get this knowledge from professionals. contact with other partners through newsletters, a support group, or an Internet site is vital"''
***
Has he ever BEEN to an "internet support forum", does he have a single CLUE how toxic and abusive most of them are right up to Admin/Guru level?
Was he drunk? --Zeraeph 14:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree with Attwood, that knowledge obtained from life experience cannot be learned from well-meaning professionals.  My son has AS and all the professionals urged us to join a parents' group.  It was a life-saver.  Why shouldn't partners join a partners' group?  Only someone who has been there knows what it's like.  I'm an Aspy and my husband would love to join a group.  He often feels like the odd man out in our family.Berkeleysappho 00:33, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To answer CC's question above, Tony Attwood has authored or co-authored 8 peer-reviewed papers listed in PubMed, but that's only a tiny fraction of the text associated with him. Once someone gets a whole lot of publicity, the chance that they will never have publicly uttered anything stupid rapidly approaches zero. Had someone ever inserted one of Attwood's dumbest comments ever into the article, I'd be asking for consensus to take it out. But I don't see a need for a pre-emptive policy. If it gets broke, we can fix it then. Poindexter Propellerhead 01:44, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes PP, i don;t think we have to change anything.   Just wanted to raise the topic of Attwood's RS-status.   I'm not going to argue against anybody's response as i'm sure reasonable ppl will differ, and am interesting in what the differing views are.   I hope other ppl chime in on what was a (admittedly somewhat deliberately) provocative post. CC 24.34.190.34 20:58, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  === Has Attwood lost his freakin' mind ???===