Talk:Transnistria/Archive 18

message: Here you go.--Hadžija 19:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  14th Army source 

message: This should be a simple and quick one. Could everyone, please, express his/her oppionion about which of the two expressions, "from" or "residents of" is better here:
*"residents of" b/c IMO "from" suggests they were in Transnistria before being employed by the Soviet Army, while in fact they arrived in Transnistria to be employed by the 14th Army and were given residence there. :Dc76 19:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is also a math problem there. Let O=the number of officers, S=the number of solders, C=the number of civil personel, T=number of those that reside in Transnistria. Then according to the sourse, O+S=6000, C=230, T=0.51*O+0.79*S+n*C, T=0,80*(O+S+C), where n is the proportion of local resident among C. From these 4 equations, one gets 0.28*O=0.79*(O+S)-(0.51*O+0.79*S)=0.79*6000-T+n*C=0.79*6000-0,80*(O+S+C)+n*230=0.79*6000-0,80*(6000+230)+n*230=4740-4984+230*n=230*n-244. So, even if all C are locals, i.e. in n=1, 230*n-244 is a negative number, hence so is O. In fact, if n<=1, then 230*n-244<=-14, and hence O<=-14/0,28=-50. You need to add 50 officers to get 0. The sourse contradicts itself, or averages too much.:Dc76 19:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reading comprehension doesn't appear to be your strong point - what part of "6,000 soldiers and officers" says 6,500? From the structure of the sentence, it's not even clear whether that refers to the whole 14th Army or not, though one would assume it does.--Hadžija 19:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I had to memorize all number, after that to check. i've corrected now.:Dc76 19:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text: "these inhabitants" in the sourse means IMO "employees of the Army that come from Transnistria". Of these 0,8*6230=4984 people, I do not doubt that the majority were ethnic Slavs. But, I am saying soemthing completely different: many of these 4984 people became residents of Transnistria after, not before they became employees of the Army. IMO, only for those that were born in Transnistria one can say "are from Transnistria":Dc76 19:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the source says "come from Transnistria", not "are from Transnistria". I am currently in Denmark. So, if I go to Germany, I come from Denmark, but I am not from Denmark. :Dc76 19:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nope. 'Come from' means 'originate/descend from' in English. Check the dictionary. Alæxis¿question? 19:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text:  regarding your calculations it seems to me that (civil personnel)!=(administrative structure). Alæxis¿question? 19:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case, we need more specific data. At any rate, the sourse does not say "are born in Transnistria", as you are trying to convince. And with all due respect, "come from" as used in the text means exactly as in the example I gave with Denmark and Germany: when I go to a conference in Germany, I come from a university in Denmark, and that is what will be written on my badge. If you insist, we can ask some native English speakers. Appart from that, these are 1994 figures, not 1992!:Dc76 19:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  With all due respect I AM right here. See this. We don't say they were born in the Transnistria either. We're just putting in the article exactly what's written in the source. Alæxis¿question? 19:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text: After my edit it's still written exactly the same what's written in the source. Alæxis¿question? 20:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Except for transdniester->transnistria change, that is. Alæxis¿question? 20:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am not going to be picky on transdniester->transnistria change for this detail. But I corrected "whose" to "its" and put the quotation marks.:Dc76 20:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's just take a step back and look as our discussion above. Wow. Imagine now the discussion between diplomats, which have to cover 1000 times more important topics, with relevance not only for the record, but also for the fate of 550,000 people. Wow! And that assuming civilized discussion and no dirty tricks as there are in politics!:Dc76 20:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue is not so important, as the attitude: after the edit was discussed, agrued, and compromised, waiting several hours till the other 2 editors leave, and doing this, is a sign of bad faith on purpose. :Dc76 01:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're being quite paranoid, you know that? I've been perfectly civil and patient with you, despite you making a mountain out of a molehill and your creative liberties with the source, and you accuse me of "bad faith"? Because of what exactly? Because I objected to poor style when I saw it, and improved the wording while retaining the same meaning? Give me a break...--Hadžija 02:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  non-constructive rethorics, imo :Dc76 08:18, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

text:  2Dc76. The article has 99 refs now and some of them are not more reliable than this one (imho). Imagine what would happen if we used "your style" of quoting them all the time. Alæxis¿question? 04:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  2Alaexis. 1) The ref was misplaced. 2) the sourse does not say were born in T as an edit without quotation clearly suggests to me 3) the statement is in the introduction - a non-ref statement there is very heavy 4) as I said, this sourse is unreliable, esp. for intro. We will eventually need to review this edit with more reliable and detailed info sourse, when such would become available. Direct citation with a ref is IMHO the only way to avoid edit conflict, which BTW is WP style, not mine. Outside WP I do not write like this. Do not put me in the situation of defending WP conventions, please, I did not create them, and not always agree with them. But I have to respect them. dura lex sed lex :Dc76 08:18, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "from Transnistria" or "residents of Transnistria" 

message: I find it a bit weird that ICDISS is given as first source for the current economic situation of Transnistria, despite being uncovered as a disinformation tribune by The Economist. Furthermore, the information is not put in perspective, ICDISS being treated as just another source. One may say that the actual characterization is given in Astroturfing#Recent examples, but the reader is still disinformed.
I see two solutions:
# If ICDISS is used because no other sources exist, then it must be put in perspective by explaining that The Ecnomist considers it a disinformation tribune.
# If ICDISS is not the only source, it should be removed, or used as a secondary source.
Dpotop 08:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The first two sentences of that subsection don't give any useful info about PMR's economics imho so I removed them. Alæxis¿question? 08:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh, that stuff wasn't deleted back then. Meh, I should've be more attentive. Dpotop, see above. --Illythr 11:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  No problem, I just want to help, not accuse someone. Anyway, it's done. Dpotop 11:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ICDISS as a source in the Economy/Current  section 

message: Why was it labelled as Transnistrian source? It's written there that Administration, hosting and copyright - "IMCO". IMCO is a Moldovan company with the office in Chisinau so I think that transnistria.md should be in the Moldovan sources subsection. Alæxis¿question? 18:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is the transnistrian antiseparatist point of view. Like "Tiraspol Times" was labeled as "transnistrian", while it is from Ireland. Transnistrian authorities don't allow antiseparatist sites to be registered on Transnistrian teritorry.--MariusM 18:17, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Show me a Transnistrian antiseparatist site registered in Pridnestrovie.--MariusM 18:31, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Considering the arrest of people who are antiseparatists (like Corjova's mayor, recently, Dignitas group before the referendum) I doubt you affirmation.--MariusM 18:31, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dikarka and Alaexis, your reasonment is fallacious and you know it. It's obvious that "pro-Transdnistrean" is a political notion, not a geographical one. Dpotop 18:30, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  transnistria.md was labelled as "Transnistrian anti-separatist". What does the word 'Transnistrian' mean here? Alæxis¿question? 18:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Is a site which show opinions of Transnistrian people.--MariusM 18:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What was wrong with the old sectionising, if such word exists, btw? Neutral, pro-PMR, pro-Moldovan sites. Isn't it logical? Alæxis¿question? 18:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

text: See archived talk. I was against the "transnistrian" heading for long time, as is denying the existence of antiseparatist transnistrians.--MariusM 18:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Look at the people who appear in their interviews: Angela Chiper , Tudor Tabunscic (Transnistrian native) , Ion Isaicov, mayor of transnistrian village Cocieri , Valeriu Ciobanu , Mihai Speian , Domnica Croleivet , Eleonora Cecavschi  etc. All, people from Transnistria.--MariusM 22:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  So you call it Transnistrian because some of their interviewees were from PMR? I think that's not enough. Alæxis¿question? 05:27, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think is enough. Is the voice of antiseparatist Transnistrians, which are not allowed to register such a site in Transnistrian teritorry. As a comparison, during communism, a media of Russian emigree was still a Russian media, even if it was not printed in Soviet Union.--MariusM 06:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: transnistria.md is a POV source on the Moldovan side. Mcarling 16:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  transnistria.md 

message: Discussion on Dikarka's persona moved to user talk:Dikarka.
:Okay folks, I think we've all had enough fun with this little conversation and everybody should get back to work on the article (or if they want to continue working out who is whose sockpuppet, do it elsewhere). Anything important that personally relates to Dikarka can be directed to her talkpage. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:17, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Future Perfect, you are a born diplomat. Dikarka in Russian means Sălbateca in Romanian or [she] [the] savage in English. Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kensin were two famous Japanese feodal warriors from 16th century, who fought each other for about 20 years, yet learned to deeply respect the other (see Kawanakajima 1 through 5, Oda Nobunaga - whom Uesugi later fought, and Tokugawa Ieyasu - whom Takeda later fought, turned Japanese warring into bloodbaths, not the honorable and noble ones, as were weiged over Shinano). Ninjas' covert face-less attacks were considered below the dignity of a samurai. As for the article, could anyone, please, read it and list the problems that he/she sees. I do not have the intension of fighting over every word (unless in the introduction), so let's see/identigy what problems do we have. I don't see anything supermajor... D'ya? And yes, Fut.Perf. is right, we are like small kids, we find any mean to turn everything into humour. At least we don't into Kalashnikovs.:Dc76 21:05, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The more probable translation of Dikarka is "the shy one". Mcarling 13:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The proper place for this is WP:RCU, not this talk. Alæxis¿question? 12:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Someone here was complaining about MariusM's checkusers? :)) Upto now, only Mauco and this new guy checkusered me. Good start, Mr. Mcarling. Dpotop 12:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hey, it's just Bonaparte, our resident banned pet troll. You'll get used to him, Mcarling. He always edits through open proxies, so it's not much use asking for checkusering. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Checkuser, again :) 

message: Following the collapse of the former Soviet Union, around 40,000 tonnes of weaponry and ammunition remained in the Colbasna military depot, guarded by the Russian 14th Army. In the subsequent years concerns were raised that the Transnistrian authorities may try to sell weapons acquired from this stockpile internationally, and intense pressure was applied to the Russian Federation to have these weapons removed.
A significant part of those munitions was since withdrawn. However, no further withdrawal activities have taken place since March 2004 and a further 20,000 tonnes of ammunition, as well as some remaining military equipment, are still to be removed.
No reliable evidence of weapons trafficking within Transnistria was found up to date.[85] A research published by the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) indicates that Transnistria is not involved in arms production or trafficking.[82] The United Nations says that the evidence for the illicit production and trafficking of weapons into and from Transnistria has in the past been exaggerated, and affirms that although the production and trafficking of light weapons is likely to have occurred before 2001, there is no reliable evidence that this still occurs.
----
The rest should be removed to Crime in Transnistria, and the Crime section be renamed to Arms control and disarmament. Note that a part of the info is redundant with the Russian military presence in Transnistria section. Perhaps the above can me merged with it instead. Specific details can go into the Disputed status of Transnistria article. --Illythr 17:37, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arms control and disarmament

message: I can't see what criterion has been used for selecting the current historical dates/events included here. My impression is that the current setting tries to give the impression that the current statal organization has deep historical roots going back to 1792 (some form of continuity is implied). I don't think this is true. Let's discuss. Dpotop 16:33, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you want to remove everything that pre-dates declaration of independence of September 2, 1990? Alæxis¿question? 16:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is my proposal, yes, unless some other notable Transnistria existed before. AFAIK, none existed. Dpotop 16:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Status section in the infobox 

message: Given the fact that there are several recent edits to the talk page about issues "not covered", as well as 100 other reasons we have to do this, I suggest to make a list:
*Huge unemployment in Transnistria. About 35% of working population is unemployed. --195.114.1.10 17:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We need a reference, and obviously if it is credible, it can go to Economy section.:Dc76 17:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is an article Human rights in Transnistria, which has a link from this page, and which would need assistance. Consider helping editting rather than simply pointing out missing stuff.:Dc76 17:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Read this: Human right in Transnistria, Ilie Ilaşcu, Human rights section here. Help copyedit them. If you have some additional sourses and would like to expand, please be our guest, we will help.:Dc76 17:51, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing from the article?

message: An interesting quote:
Joint Statement by President George W. Bush and President Vladimir Voronin on U.S.-Moldovan Relations,
December 17, 2002
We welcome the positive development and expansion of U.S.-Moldovan relations over the last 11 years. The relationship of our two countries is based on a shared commitment to promoting prosperity, freedom, and security in Moldova and throughout the region.
Together, we reaffirm our support for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Republic of Moldova, and underscore our determination to bring the Transnistrian separatist conflict to a peaceful resolution. We stress our continued commitment to the ongoing OSCE-led Transnistria talks and, in particular, to the Kiev Document as the basis for negotiation of a lasting settlement.
We note and welcome the Russian Federation’s intention to implement fully its commitments undertaken at the OSCE’s Istanbul Summit by completing the withdrawal of its forces from the territory of Moldova by December 31, 2003. We urge Transnistria’s authorities to support unconditionally this process. If the Transnistrian authorities continue systematically to create obstacles for the disposal or withdrawal of Russian ammunition and military equipment, we are prepared to consider together with other concerned [p. 2174] countries targeted measures directed at the Tiraspol regime.
We recognize the progress that Moldova has made in transforming its economy in a free market direction, most notably in the agricultural sector. At the same time, we are cognizant of the economic challenges currently facing Moldova, including Moldova’s particularly difficult debt situation. We are in complete accord that Moldova must strengthen its reform efforts, especially in the areas of privatization and the energy sector, and improve its investment climate. We agreed that with strong and clearly demonstrated performance under Moldova’s IMF program, the United States would consider participating in a comprehensive plan to stabilize Moldova’s debt outlook in the medium term.
We note and welcome Moldova’s positive record since independence in conducting free and fair elections and in implementing democratic reforms. We pledge our commitment to upholding the principles of democracy and human rights and to observing them in practice. To this end, we underscore the vital importance of further progress in meeting OSCE election standards and in strengthening free and independent media in Moldova.
Finally, we reaffirm the importance of continued cooperation between the United States and Moldova in promoting regional security, including through our common efforts at combating the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction; transnational crime; and trafficking in persons. We will deepen our cooperation to combat international terrorist threats to world peace both in our own countries and internationally. The United States appreciates Moldova’s support in the global war on terrorism.
Secure M 14:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Statement by President George W. Bush 

message: Please propose such a lot of changes here first. Alæxis¿question? 20:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, they aren't. Alæxis¿question? 20:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

text: What's "Cis-"? --Illythr 20:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The opposite of "trans". Alæxis¿question? 21:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Too rare. Simply "Dniester MR" would be NPOV, but alas, "Transnistria" is more known in English. So it stays. --Illythr 21:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2LionKing 

message: Coming along nicely since I last tagged it. Well done Alaexis and DC76. El_C 08:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't prase before it's done. Noone will work after the prase :-) :Dc76 15:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ref cleanup

message: The article indicates 2500 Russian troops, which hasn't been true for years.  The current number is 1200.  I trust that Reuters is an acceptable source.  Is there any objection to updating this? Mcarling 13:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reuters is an acceptable source.--MariusM 15:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of Russian Troops 

message: Where do the figures for Russian troops come from? I noticed it when Mcarling changed it from 2500 to 1200. But without citing sources, as usual. Mcarling, MariusM, can you point us to actual sources? Dpotop 12:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See above on this talk page: Number of Russian Troops. Mcarling 12:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, I cited it properly. Dpotop 13:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  1200, 2500 

message: Another Pro-Moldova leader.--199.89.182.5 15:28, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Nikolai Buchatskii]]

message: Nikolai Buchatskii and Alexander Radchenko are making the peace with Moldova.
The Senior Adviser visited the offices of Dobrii Den’ in Ribnitsa in the north of the region. This was his second visit to this newspaper in two years. Previously, the newspaper was sued for libel for 30,000 USD. In the end the newspaper lost the lawsuit but paid a much smaller sum and did not go bankrupt. Dobrii Den’ extensively covers corruption, especially concerning privatization schemes.
Dobrii Den’ is involved in several joint projects with Moldovan newspapers, mostly dealing with social issues.
The owner of this newspaper, Svetlana Kotovskaya, informed the Office that the newspaper was not really under any serious pressure. “Of course, after you leave, I will be visited by the MGB [“state” security], but that happens so often I don’t even consider it as a form of pressure,” Kotovskaya told Senior Adviser Ivanko.
She considered the lack of access to information a much bigger problem. “We usually don’t get any answers when we ask the authorities for information, they just ignore us,” said Kotovskaya, “In a way that is also a form of pressure since we lose out to other publications, mostly state-controlled.”
:Please provide source and please sign your postings.--MariusM 15:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OSCE is good?  --199.89.182.5 15:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A movement will overthrow Igor Smirnov in Russia very soon

message: The United States is committed to supporting the search for a solution to the Transnistria conflict: a solution which is peaceful and which strengthens Moldova's sovereignty, territorial integrity and democratic institutions. http://www.osce.org/documents/pc/2005/07/15932_en.pdf 199.89.182.5 15:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Moldovan Law on Transnistria’s Status: Transnistria is a part of Moldova

message: Diplomatic personnel accredited to the U.S. Embassy in Chisinau attempted to pay a routine visit
to the OSCE branch office in Tiraspol, but were blocked from entering the region at two separate checkpoints manned by Transnistrian authorities. http://www.osce.org/documents/pc/2007/03/23898_en.pdf --199.89.182.5 15:55, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We discussed this incident in archive 17 . I was just giving this incident as an example that not every single incident is in the article, as some editors were complaining.--MariusM 16:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Freedom of Movement in Moldova: Transnistrian authorities block free movement (March 22, 2007)

message: Again, I suggest removing the list altogether (except maybe for the travel warnings). I doubt that even the Crime in Transnistria article is place for individual criminal incidents, unless they have some profound effect on the situation in general. --Illythr 23:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually, this is a complex discussion, because we group under the same title two loosely-related things. "Insecurity" should go with the human rights section. OTOH, the arms smuggling should go in the discussion concerning the international status of Transnistria. Dpotop 10:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Uh, sorry, I meant 11.2 - the assassinations and bombs. The arms stuff must stay, as it's the main security concern in the region. --Illythr 12:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The bombings and assasinations also should stay, they are relevant for the climate of the region. The arms control section can be shortened.--MariusM 16:16, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Criminal incidents are not normally mentioned in a article about a country or territory, unless the have a profound longterm effect on the region in general. The Ilascu case in such an example. The others are not. --Illythr 20:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In a region of half million inhabitants we had in the last year 2 bombings and 2 individual assasinations. It's equivalent of 400 bombings and 400 assasinations of political leaders in a country like Russia. Relevant for the actual climate.--MariusM 21:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, let's compare the Swiss "invasion" of Liechtenstein with 30000 Chinese soldiers moving into Mongolia, shall we? Anyhow, if not even Afghanistan has such a list, neither should Transnistria. --Illythr 22:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Crime

message: Wouldn't the correct name of the destroyed cemetery be Dragalina, after the Romanian general Ion Dragalina who died during WWI? Dpotop 10:47, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like it. --Illythr 12:21, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You were right. ...in cimitirul de razboi "General Dragalina" din Tighina... --Illythr 21:14, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drăgalina? 

message: Why is still so much desinformation in Wikipedia?--Vlachos 21:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: False statements deleted: Moldovan is [[Romanian]]

message: The lead section should list Transnistria along with Abkhazia and South Ossetia as one of the Russia-backed separatist regions in the former USSR republics. There is a universally accepted similarity between these cases. Icar 10:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is a source on this, cited by Alaexis above. Dpotop 11:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Russian military presence is already mentioned in the intro. Why do you want to mention it another time there? Alæxis¿question? 13:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text: If it weren't significant it wouldn't deserve to be in the intro at all. Even significant things need not be mentioned more than once. Alæxis¿question? 14:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Mentioning the presence of regular Russian army twice is redundant, IMO. Similarity with Abkhazia and South Ossetia is a different thing. If you want to introduce it, I suggest the edit that I just did. :Dc76 14:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Again, this is what I thought for the moment. I don't have time to think about it more than 2 minutes. sorry. :Dc76 14:34, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What's the problem with mentioning Karabakh? The conflict in Ossetia also started in 1989 and there had been ethnic tensions (to put it mildly) in 1918-1920. Alæxis¿question? 14:40, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are we claiming any direct relation? Otherwise, I'm not sure that's suitable for the lead. El_C 14:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It was Icar who mentioned Abkhazia and SO in the article. I'm not sure it's needed in the intro but I don't have anything against it. Alæxis¿question? 15:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I am not that familiar with the earlier origin of the conflicts in the Caucasus. My thought was about the fact that in 1988 in Karabakh was war, all out war with thousands of deaths, like in Bosnia, only less known. In Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transnistria, during the same time there were tensions, generally mirroring the behavior of Georgia and Moldova with respect to the former Soviet Union, there were incidents even with 3 or 5 deads, etc, incidents involving police and certain individuals even sometimes organized in groups of 20-30, but no military action as such, no command center, no sectors, no field commanders, no battles, to cities taken or retaken. War started in these in 1992. I guess the relation that is attributed, is that in Transnistria, as well as in Abkhazia and Ossetia there was clear support from Russia of one side, there were volonteers and regulars from Russia on one side only, and that the movements towards separatism were mirroring those of M and G towards establishing independence from SU and their international recognition. In Moldova and Georgia the wars were viewed largely as wars against Russia, while in Karabakh, Azerbaijan was fighting Armenia. How should this be explained in the article? - I'm obviously open to suggestions. My point was - if you want this in the intro, this is how I think it should. :Dc76 15:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see your point - you take as a criterion more or less apparent involvement of Russia. Then the question is why should we use this criterion but not some other one. Alæxis¿question? 15:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Abkhazia]] and [[South Ossetia]] 

message: The lead has again inflated to an unacceptable size. This is not urgent, we let's all think about it. Dpotop 19:15, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The lead is (again) too long 

message: In Corjova the elctions of 3 june were not held as result of the actions of Transnistrian authorities (discussed above in this talk page). The electoral comission established that election will be repeated in 17 june and Corjova villagers are asking president Voronin to visit them during this elections: Corjova villagers demanding president Voronin to come to them next sunday.
Corjova residents have sent an appeal to Moldovan President Vladimir Voronin in which they demanded from the head of state to come to their village on the election day of June 17. Valeriu Ciobanu, the Corjova mayor's press secretary and a Transnistrian armed conflict veteran, stated at a news conference in Infotag today that the general atmosphere in Corjova now is extremely tense. Mayor Valeriu Mitul was not able to come to Chisinau today because the village is surrounded with Transnistrian militiamen, so he preferred to remain together with the residents of the village - nearly 9 thousand people. Ciobanu remarked that although Corjova is the President Voronin's birthplace, it is the poorest and negligent-most locality in the region. "We would like Voronin to come to us on June 17, accompanied by the police, in order to back us, guarantee our right of voting, for this is the only possibility for us to elect a mayor and a village council", Ciobanu said. "If Voronin does not come, I reserve the right to think anything of the President", the man stated. Last several years, Vladimir Voronin made several attempts to come to the Transnistrian region - not even as a president but as a usual human who was born there, and whose very old mother is very ill, and asked her son to come home to see him. However, he was not let to even cross the administrative border between the mainland Moldova and its Transnistrian region.--MariusM 01:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Corjova villagers ask Voronin to visit them

message: The fact that 80% of the personel of 14th Army was from Transnistria is based on a source not on-line (impossible to check for me), not neutral (Russian) and self-contradictory, as discussed above by DC76. As we have a separate article about 14th Army involvement in Transnistria, we should keep there all the details (we should search also for other sources on this issue), we don't need this detail of dubious accuracy in this article. Also, I believe we don't need all the details regarding the latest political assasination (Emelianov), the fact that the victim irrigated his flower is not really relevant, is enough if we tell he was killed. I suggest also a changing of the subsection name "Personal security" in "Political violence".--MariusM 03:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I totally agree with you. Maybe is the other way ...80% from CCCP (other than Moldova).Catarcostica 04:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Firstly, the source is not self-contradictory. (civil personnel) may not equal to (administrative structure) - we don't know whether it is or not while Dc76 presumed that it is. Secondly it's not Russian - it has been published in British peer-reviewed journal and thus cannot be dismissed right away. Alæxis¿question? 05:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Source told that 51% of officers and 79% of soldiers were from Transnistria, and afterward that 80% of personel is from Transnistria, which is self-contradictory unless civil personel is counted, and it was a massive number of civil personel 100% from Transnistria. The author is Russian, some possible bias can occur. I am not dismissing this source, I am telling that we should use it only in the main article about 14th Army involvement in Transnistria, and even in this article we should give all details (the 51% and 79% numbers also) and we should compare with other sources. AFAIK, the soviet army didn't have a policy of local recruitment. I wonder what does it mean 51% local officers - born in Transnistria or only that they received an apartment in Transnistria? It can be a longer debate on this subject, my suggestion is to have this debate at the 14th Army article, and to keep only a short mention of the 14th Army involvement in this article, with links to the detailed article. Regarding Emelianov, I consider even the caliber of the bullet who killed him irrelevant for this article, maybe we should mention it in Crime in Transnistria.--MariusM 05:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There's nothing unnatural that the civil personnel employed by the army came mostly from Transnistria. Even if one doesn't take into account the civil personnel the majority of soldiers and officers (together) also came from Transnistria according to the source. If you know of any other numbers please tell us about them and if they contradict what's written in the article we'll correct the article. Alæxis¿question? 10:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But is unnatural that civil personnel to be more numerous than military personnel.--MariusM 17:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unnecesary or dubious info in the article

message: I was criticised for using only Moldovan sources, here is a report from Amnesty international website. I hope Alaexis is happy with this source (his happiness being one of my goals)
URGENT ACTION 
Moldova (Self-proclaimed Dnestr Moldavian Republic): Possible prisoner of conscience/ health concern/ legal concern: Valentin Besleag (m) 
PUBLIC AI Index: EUR 59/001/2007 
11 June 2007
UA 145/07 Possible prisoner of conscience/ health concern/ legal 
concern 
MOLDOVA Valentin Besleag (m), aged 59
(SELF-PROCLAIMED DNESTR 
MOLDAVIAN REPUBLIC) 
Valentin Besleag, from Corjova village in the Dubasari region of the 
self-proclaimed Dnestr Moldavian Republic (DMR), has been detained at the 
police station in Dubasari since 2 June. He and his family have not been 
informed of the reasons for his arrest; nor have they been allowed to see the 
court order for his detention. His family has not been allowed to pass on 
necessary medication to him via the prison authorities. He may be being 
detained for legitimately exercising his right to freedom of expression, and 
thus may be a prisoner of conscience.
Valentin Besleag had been a candidate for mayor of Corjova in local elections 
which were due to be held on 3 June. Corjova is one of nine villages in the 
self-governing territory of the DMR which are the focus of an ongoing dispute 
with Moldova. The nine villages are located geographically in the DMR, but are 
under the control of the central government of Moldova as the local inhabitants 
sided with the Moldovan forces during the civil war in 1990 – 1992. The DMR is 
not internationally recognized. Russia maintains a military presence and 
deploys peace-keeping forces in the territory. Local elections were held 
throughout Moldova on 3 June, and in the DMR, they were only held in the 
villages under the control of the central government. 
Valentin Besleag was returning from Moldova with election materials in his car 
at 11pm on 1 June when traffic police stopped him, confiscated his driving 
licence and asked him to go to the police station in the town of Dubasari. He 
refused to go to the police station that night, but went at 8am the following 
day to reclaim his driving licence. He did not return home and his family were 
unable to contact him by mobile phone. At 2pm on 2 June, Valentin Besleag's 
daughter went to the police station to find out what had happened. She saw her 
father through a half-opened door when she was handed his belt, shoe laces and 
mobile phone, and was able to see that his hands were tied behind his back. 
Police officers refused to explain to her why Valentin Besleag was detained. 
When she asked the officers why his family had not been informed of his 
detention, she was told she should have asked the judge. Therefore, Valentin 
Besleag's family believe that he has been formally charged and brought before a 
judge, in accordance with legal procedure in the DMR. They do not know what he 
has been charged with, but suspect that it is connected with the fact that he 
was carrying election materials with him in the car. According to the laws of 
the DMR, it is illegal to bring election materials from abroad (including 
Moldova). 
Although Valentin Besleag was suffering chest pains before his detention and 
was taking medication for this condition, his family has been forbidden to take 
any food or medication to him. 
Valentin Besleag’s family have tried to hire a lawyer to take on his case, but 
because of the likely political nature of the charge against him, no one has 
been willing to take on his case and he remains without legal representation. 
Lawyers from Moldova who have asked to represent him have been refused. 
BACKGROUND INFORMATION
In Moldova and in the DMR conditions in police detention are extremely poor. 
The European Committee for the Prevention of Torture (CPT) described conditions 
in places of detention run by the Ministry of the Interior of Moldova as 
"disastrous". The CPT stated that in many cases the conditions amounted to 
inhuman or degrading treatment. The food provided for detainees is of very low 
quality and for this reason food parcels from family and friends are essential 
for the health and wellbeing of those held. Reportedly, the conditions in DMR 
prisons are similar, if not worse. 
DMR police prevented elections from taking place in Corjova on 3 June. Iurie 
Cotofan, who tried to cast his vote was allegedly beaten by DMR police. He was 
taken away from the voting station by several DMR police officers who then 
dragged him behind a car, pushed him face down to the ground and started to 
beat and kick him. One officer knelt on his back while another held him down 
with his foot while others beat him. He was then taken to the Dubasari police 
station, where he was held until midnight on 3 June before being released with 
no explanation or charge. Iurie Cotofan is currently being treated in the 
Emergency Hospital in Chisinau for his injuries.--MariusM 17:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, Moldovan press didn't mention, AFAIK, the Besleag's case. I wonder at which party he belong that nobody care about him. He seem to be a competitor of Valeriu Mitul, current Corjova mayor, who was also subject of harassment (death threats) from Transnistrian authorities.--MariusM 18:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Amnesty International: Arrest of Valentin Besleag from Corjova and mention of Cotofana case

message: The statement about no Moldovans being in the government is an outright lie. Perhaps the representation is not proportional, but it is there. --Node 14:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it should be reformulated because here 'government' means only the council of ministers. There are ethnic Moldovans in parliament and in other institutions. Alæxis¿question? 15:06, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Source was provided for this afirmation. Node is the well known 16 year old American kid who started the Wikipedia in Moldovan language, Wikipedia which was stoped after a discussion on metawiki. Government usualy mean council of ministers.--MariusM 05:00, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Have fun making your personal attacks MariusM. Perhaps you didn't read the mailing list, but the Moldovan Wikipedia isn't closed permanently, it is temporary. See the official ruling of the Language Committee please. Also, I'm not 16, I am 17. And this discussion is not about me, it is about this page. Please refrain from talking about me here, that belongs on my User_talk: page. --Node 09:00, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have lot of fun in Wikipedia, but I didn't made personal attacks. "16 year old kid" is not personal attack, neither is the accurate info that you are the proud father of a brand new Wikipedia. Congratulations for your 17th birthday, I was not aware that you turned 17th. Anyhow, the underrepresentation of Moldovans in the leadership of Transnistria is a well documented fact, you should not deny it.--MariusM 19:47, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I turn 18 very soon. --Node 10:10, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  Dpotop, why have you removed Node's message? Removing  is one thing, removing others' text is another and it isn't very nice imo. Alæxis¿question? 12:20, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I change government with council of ministers, to make Alaexis happy and to have more accuracy.--MariusM 05:41, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It would be interesting to provide figures also for the proportion of Moldovans in the Transnistrian "parliament" and among mayors, for instance. Are such figures available? Icar 07:45, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Look here. Some info is there although you'll have to count 'em yourself. Alæxis¿question? 08:27, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Moldovans in government? 

message: Here de facto is the adverb that explains the word independent, not the word territory. Alæxis¿question? 17:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Than, what is the difference between a de facto independent territory within the internationally recognised borders of Moldova. and "an autonomous teritorial unit of Moldova". I think the new intro better explaines the position of both sidesDl.goe 19:39, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Autonomous territorial units of other countries aren't described as de facto independent. Remember also that the next sentence will be about PMR being unrecognised. Alæxis¿question? 06:32, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Indeed, it isn't North-East :) I accept these changes, but I would prefer legally instead of de jureDl.goe 17:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: legally=de jure to me. I'm fine with "legally".:Dc76 10:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 1

message: I've never thought about the problem you mentioned here. If you think that it's not recognised as a state by ... is better than its independence is not recognised by... you could change it. Alæxis¿question? 17:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 2

message: Alaexis, me, and someone third had a long contradictory discution about it. "what does came from Transnistria mean, does it mean they were born there?" No, only a small portion were born there. The rest had residence (domiciliul) there. "Did they come there as civilians?" only those that occupied/occupy civilian, i.e. auxiliary positions. "Were they recruited recently?" don't know. "an army fights as commanded. Did Russia arm and command civilians from a foreign territory?" Those that fought on Transnistrian side in 1992 were of several types:
*local residents that wanted return to the Soviet Union, that refused Moldovan/Romanian language as official, and that saw the return to the Latin alphabet as a ultra-nationalist act, fringing fascism (why they came to believe this is a diff question). Generally organized as "gvardeitsy". 
*locals oblidged to fight on Transnistrian side. Ex: Transnistrian "gvardeitsy" and cossacs would come en force to a village, gather the inhabitants and announce that the village must contribute 50 people to fight against Moldova. If the village would not provide the required number, it was threatened that human rights abuses would happen (rapes, beatings, stealing). 
*volonteers or "de facto volonteers" from Russia: cossacs, military-adventure-seeking people. Also a small number of criminals released on parole (deep in Russia) under the condition that within 7 days they report to Tiraspol and serve as "gvardeitsy" for a number of months. Ex: someone convicted for 7 years for a criminal offence is released 2 years prior under the condition that he serves 6 months in Tiraspol as "gvardeets" 
: I heard about this happening in Georgia on the verge of the war with Abkhazia. It may have happened here also. Do you have sources? Alæxis¿question? 05:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice summary (even though I don't agree with some facts and wordings). Alæxis¿question? 05:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 3

message: In 17 May again Transnistrian authorities stopped the election in Corjova village. Details here (English) and here (Romanian).--MariusM 04:07, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As an aside, anybody knows how many people live in Corjova? El_C 10:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: around 2,000 :Dc76 11:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Please add it there if you have a source. El_C 11:23, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are welcome. This was simply out of my head. When I'll find a sourse, I'll put it into the article of Corjova. Until then, I'd rather not put things that I simply heard. :Dc76 11:31, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Some video materials regarding the events in Corjova can be founded here (in Romanian language).--MariusM 20:06, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Moldova OSCE Mission Head Condemns Forced Closure of Corjova Polling Station

message: While there are economic problems, for MGB (KGB) officers Transnistrian government has enough money for a pension increase, as shown by a law proposal publicized on Transnistrian Supreme Soviet site. They are discussing increases in pensions only for former intelligence personel, not for everybody. Tipical for a police state.--MariusM 02:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To quote Mikhail Burla, Transnistrian Supreme Soviet's Chairperson of the Committee for economic policy, budget and finance: "The state really doesn’t have opportunities for raising salaries and pensions" . But, to quote George Orwell, some are more equals than others.--MariusM 01:37, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  :-) I would have been surprized if it had been otherwise. But this is natural reaction of people in power in Transnistria: help your own power base by all means possible.:Dc76 12:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  BTW, what is the meaning of the result of arbitration: can the three banned users contribute to articles outside the subject of Transnistria? :Dc76 12:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: KGB (MGB) officers from Transnistria will received increased pensions

message: How do you know Moldova didn't agree with that? If you know the source proving it please add it to the article. Alæxis¿question? 16:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dc already told you: "when you open a dipl repr, you make an agreement with host country" --Tones benefit 18:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consulate 

message: Basescu (President of Romania) awarded the state medals for heroism for Ilascu Group.--Tones benefit 14:45, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Medals

message: Vladimir Voronin said that there is a continuous dialogue between Moldova and Croatia  and that the two countries are mutually supporting each other in the international bodies. --Tones benefit 14:47, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Croatia supports Moldova in Transnistria's case

message: Alaexis, Dc76, your way of formatting this discussion is giving me a blistering headache. Is it so difficult to correctly use the indenting operators provided by wikipedia? I understand that from time to time it's useful to remove some indenting, but not indenting at all (Dc76) or badly (Alaexis) is not a good solution. So, PLEASE, could you indent correctly in the future? Unless, of course, if you want to keep this discussion to yourselves. Dpotop 12:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am simply ignorant of indenting. What do you want me to indent, my talk messages, something in the article? Just tell me, I am not opposed to it. when you say "x does not do y at all" consider the possibility that "x have never thought of doing y or has not idea what is y". Now, I am guessing, do you want me to add more ::? Ok, no problem! Is that it? :Dc76 13:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  ok, I'll think about it )) Alæxis¿question? 16:52, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headache...