Talk:Demosthenes

message: Diogenes remarked of Demosthenes that he was "A Scythian in his speeches but a gentleman on the battlefied"  (Davenport, 1995.)  A2e1k 05:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A noteworthy quote 

message: Among the operations of the sixth summer of the Peloponnesian wars was a campaign which the Athenian commander Demosthenes conducted in Aetolia-successful at the outset, but terminating in disaster, which made the general afraid to return to Athens. He seized a chance, however, of recovering his credit by foiling a Lacedaemonian expedition against Naupactus; and in other ways he successfully established a high military reputation, so that he was no longer afraid to reappear at Athens. 
jhgjhj
Next year, the Athenians dispatched a larger fleet, with Sicily for its objective. Demosthenes, however, who had a project of his own in view, was given an independent command. He was thus enabled to seize and fortify Pylos, a position on the south-west of Peloponnese, with a harbour sheltered by the isle of Sphacteria. The Spartans, in alarm, withdrew their invading force from Attica, and attempted to recover Pylos, landing over 400 of their best men on Sphacteria. The locality now became the scene of a desperate struggle, which finally resulted in the Spartans on Sphacteria being completely isolated. 
So seriously did the Lacedaemonians regard this blow that they invited the Athenians to make peace virtually on terms of an equal alliance; but the Athenians were now so confident of a triumphant issue that they refused the terms--chiefly at the instigation of Cleon. Some supplies, however, were got into Sphacteria, owing to the high rewards offered by the Lacedaemonians for successful blockade-running. 
At this moment, Cleon, the Athenian demagogue, having rashly declared that he could easily capture Sphacteria, was taken at his word and sent to do it. He had the wit, however, to choose Demosthenes for his colleague, and to take precisely the kind of troops Demosthenes wanted; with the result that within twenty days the Spartans found themselves with no other alternatives than annihilation or surrender. Their choice of the latter was an overwhelming blow to Lacedaemonian prestige. 
(This material refers to Demosthenes the general, not to the orator. Flounderer 02:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: other Demosthenes

message: I don't see the point of the reference to the use of the name 'Demosthenes' in S.F. novels, and especially not of the addition of Category:Enderverse characters.  The Demosthenes of this article isn't a character in the novels.  It seems clear that the Category should be removed, but would anyone object to the removal of the reference to them? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:30, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Ender's Game

message: "  Demosthenes, like many prominent Greeks of his era, is said to have engaged in sex with men, and it was suggested that he may have engaged in the prostitution of youth (Aiskhines iii 162): "There is a certain Aristion, a Plataean..., who as a youth was oustandingly good-looking and lived for a long time in Demosthenes' house. Allegations about the part he was playing [lit., 'undergoing or doing what'] there vary, and it would be most unseemly for me to talk about it." (Dover, 1989)  "
This material does not belong in the article, at least in this form. It might have relevance in an entry on Athenian political invective or Athenian sexuality, but is too insubstantial to form part of an account of D's life. Athenian politicians were free at hurling abuse at each, in particular charges that their opponent had once prostituted himself or accepted payment from older men for sex (similar but of stronger implication than the suggestion in the quote above that D. as an adult may have had receptive anal sex with a younger male) . This could be the basis of a serious charge since men who have prostituted themselves could be barred from addressing the assembly (death to a political career), but mostly they are just mouthing off at each other: the stuff is interesting culturally but it's just froth when it comes to writing a biographical note. Forgive the parody but a modern equivalent, might go like this: "LIke many modern western men, Ted Republican is said to have lied about his tax deductions. According to Bob Democrat, speaking in a noisy bar the other night, that big red SUV Ted claims as a work car is actually being driven by his daughter..."
Flounderer 00:07, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's also false, as sex with men was no more usual than it is now, and deprecated (romantic and sexual relationships with boys was another matter). --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 11:20, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demosthenes and sex 

message: The caption of the picture of the statue showing an adult Demosthenes states that the original dates from 380 BC, when Demosthenes would have been four years old. I'm not a Greek scholar or anything, but there's something there that just doesn't quite fit. Can't put my finger on it.
Kai 04:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statue date 

message: Where is the difference between "References" and "Further Reading"? If there is non (as I assume), why are there two different sections? --Bender235 00:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is an obvious difference. The referenced bibliography is inline citated within the articles (See Citation). The further reading biography is not used or citated within the article, but it is suggested for further reading, in case somebody wants to learn more things. This is not the only article where there is a clear distinction between Ref and Further Reading.--Yannismarou 07:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Does it make any sense to recommend a let's say comprehensive biography of Demosthenes for further reading, but not using it in citations? Anyway, if that's the current method, I don't care. --Bender235 12:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References and/or Further Reading 

message: As requested by Yannismarou, I have had a good look through the article.  It is clearly well written, but I will point out a couple of things which I think could use improvement:
*I don't remember reading in the article how we modern people know about his orations.  Did he write them down himself, did someone else write them down for him, are there original manuscripts available or later copies?
:*Done. I also created a sub-page with more details.--Yannismarou 15:04, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tried to resolve that.--Yannismarou 13:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

text: *Tried to resolve that.--Yannismarou 13:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

text: *Removed and replaced.--Yannismarou 10:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

text: *Done, according to your idea in Pericles!--Yannismarou 09:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some comments 

message: 2 minor points can be changed in a jiffy for style improvement :
* "lex orandi" and underscored that "inter omnes unus excellat." is some wonderful latin though having it in english would help the reader.
:*Done.--Yannismarou 10:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Tried to resolve that.--Yannismarou 13:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: GA granted

message: I was just working on an article about one of Demosthenes' contemporaries and came here for some background info.  I was going to nominiate it for FA, but since this is apparently somebody else's baby, I'll let them do the honors.--*Kat* 07:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *By the way, if you need any help with the article you're writing, just tell me.--Yannismarou 07:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I may take you up on that.  --*Kat* 04:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wow!  Great article

message: Demosthenes is the villain in Fire from Heaven by Mary Renault. He appears as a lustful creep and arrogant lout who tries to sexually abuse the very young Alexander but gets a humiliating comeuppance. Thus Renault explains two historical mysteries: Why Demosthenes had such passionate hatred for a very young boy, and why the talented orator was left totally speechless and unable to deliver his prepared speech before King Phillip. Das Baz 16:51, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know, my friend. See Demosthenes (fictional character) and you'll see I've mentioned all these things.--Yannismarou 09:44, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mary Renault on Demosthenes

message: The article use to say that, following the razing of Thebes in 335 BC, Alexander,
:… demanded the exile of all anti-Macedonian politicians, Demosthenes first of all, a request turned down by the ecclesia.
I've now changed this to:
:… demanded the exile of all anti-Macedonian politicians, Demosthenes first of all. According to Plutarch, a special Athenian embassy led by Phocion, an opponent of the anti-Macedonian faction, was able to persuade Alexander to relent.
I've based this change solely on the cited reference, Plutarch, Phocion 17. Does anyone have sources which say that  the request was simply "turned down by the ecclesia"?
Paul August ☎ 18:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Our sources are the same, but I agree that your wording is more accurate.--Yannismarou 17:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, thanks for the response. Paul August ☎ 19:06, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree; see Arrian i. 10, that I  resumed at Talk:Alexander the Great.--Aldux 20:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alexander's demands regarding Demosthenes in 335 BC 

message: Why does my web browser only show the article up to Confronting Alexander and delivering On the Crown? The contents even do not list anything after this section. I am disappointed because I want to read the remaining part of the article.  211.28.237.149 08:20, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A user, trying to copy-edit the article, created this mess; the article is now restored.--Yannismarou 08:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incomplete article displayed 

message: The value listed in US dollars is 400,000, and I can't help but wonder if that is in 1952 dollars as that is when the source was written.  If it was, the current value would be around 3 million of todays dollars.  Could someone check on this?74.130.23.77 21:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inheritance 

message: Yannismarou, thank you for reminding me of that old conversation. I had utterly forgotten about it, and it certainly sweetens the pot, so to speak. It seems to me quite clear that in ancient Greece a man's relations with his eromenoi were a lot more important politically than those with his wife. Men mattered, women less so. So by that measure, favoring here a discussion of his marriage while deleting all mentions of his pederastic affairs is nothing other than an ethnocentric imposition on a personage  from a culture with values different from those being imposed on him now. In effect you are modernizing and westernizing Demosthenes. Is that a reasonable thing to do? AND, if some scholar or other asserts that a given statement about his relations is a "slur" then that too needs to be included in the article, first because slurs are part of his history and important to our understanding of his life and the forces at work within it, and second, because it is one man's opinion and it may be contradicted by the next scholar to express himself on this topic.
Furthermore, it is particularly significant that Demosthenes is associated with a number of different eromenoi. I count three at the present. All the more reason that readers have access to this information. Haiduc 23:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Haiduc, the particular erastes-eromenos relationship you included is of no political interest. Who cares if Demosthenes had an extra-marital relationship, and if his wife slept with this man in order to take revenge?! These are gossips; not encyclopedical material. It is the same thing, if we write that Jacques Chirac cheated on his wife with three women and two men, and then she had a hysteria because of that! This not encyclopedic material! Besides the fact that Athenaeus is used in mixing truth with gossips. This is my problem; neither "ethnocentricity" nor "westernization". And the only thing I say about his personal life is that he was married, and that he had a daughter, whose death and the subsequent attitude of Demosthenes became a political issue because of Aeschines. This is encyclopedic material; not his extra-marital affair (presented again inaccurately by you as a famous erastes-eromenos relationship of antiquity in another article?!!!) with some guy, called Cnosion, having 55 links in Google and even less in Google Book! I'm sorry, but this is just not notable!--Yannismarou 08:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The cases of Aristarchus and Aristion seem to include interesting biographical elements connected with his public life. Initially, I did not include them (I acknowledge I knew the cases), because they were not connected with Demosthenes' major "purpose of life": the struggle against Philip, and the subsequent rivalry with Aeschines. But if you want to include them, I cannot impede you. Instead of adding a new section, maybe you could add them in one of the existing sections. Anyway ... Make your edits, and then I'll comment on them; finding the correct structure is I suppose something that we'll manage to work. Maybe you could then also create a seperate article per WP:SS, and elaborate on them. Maybe, it is also an opportunity to create articles for some more of Demosthenes' speeches - I worked on some of them for some time, but then I was distracted by other articles and issues (mainly the WP:GREECE).--Yannismarou 07:59, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Let me know what you think. As for spinning off a dedicated article - there is not really enough material, in my opinion. At this point, with this stuff in two separate places already, I think it is enough. Haiduc 01:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It reads better now, a couple of comments: I would keep the bit about Aeschines having had lovers himself, since it sharpens the focus of the discussion - this is one pederast discussing another pederast. As for Packard's comment, is he alone in this? I have not read him, but I would imagine that what is being questioned is not Demosthenes pederasty but his alleged irresponsibility. Can you bring in some relevant quotes from Packard? Haiduc 10:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi all. If I can add my opinion, we should be careful not to extend further the piece on Demosthenes' personal life, as we risk 1) forgetting that Demosthenes is a politician and an orator, not a guy who fucked x 2) the article is already becoming pretty longish, and me must maintain the blance between the sections. 3) More specifically, the proposal regarding the insertion of Aeschines seems hardly relevant to me.--Aldux 13:12, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean the whole new section? I also am against any further expansion, but do you suggest to trim a bit more this new section, and possibly add it to one of the current sections? Not to add it at all, and leave the article as it was before?--Yannismarou 15:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I thought I had removed that for the reason you mention. Am I wrong? Is it still there and I just miss it?--Yannismarou 17:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I got distracted by other things; it was still there, but that's irrelevant now. --Mel Etitis  (Talk) 09:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: In reverse order of appearance:
#Robth, this could get involved, but I will try to be breif. In the early to middle twentieth century historians avoided peering too closely into their subjects' love life, all the more if it was of an illicit color. More recently, with the advent of gender studies, such material has become a legitimate topic of study. Unless and until this article is titled "The Political Life of Demosthenes" this material belongs here and is of historical importance, and it belongs as placed. As for the relationships being well substantiated - Aeschines will do. Please realize that Aeschines is NOT accusing D of keeping boys. He is accusing him of misusing the boys he keeps. It is of no benefit to him to "accuse" D of keeping boys. It would be like me "accusing" you of being married. 
#Mel, I agree with your observation, especially in light of the dense footnoting of this article. There is more work to be done here, though I would add that those citations are secondary (like Nicodemus' lawsuit and murder, or Aeschines accusing D of profiting from his boys. The Dover cite was an oversight, not a fatal flaw I assume.
#Aldux, I see your point about the article being overlong. I would not be adverse if the entire Personal life section is spun off into its own article. I would also retitle this article to indicate its specialization. Haiduc 23:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It looks much better now; some good work. --Mel Etitis  (Talk) 09:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any objections to including the article in :Category:Pederasty in ancient Greece? Haiduc 11:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pederasty in the life of Demosthenes 

message: I haven't yet read through everything carefully, but there's a real problem with sources for this section. Even the occasional reference is obscure ("Dover op. cit." is unhelpful when Dover is mentioned nowehere else in the article, for example). --Mel Etitis  (Talk) 16:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought I had removed that for the reason you mention. Am I wrong? Is it still there and I just miss it?--Yannismarou 17:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I got distracted by other things; it was still there, but that's irrelevant now. --Mel Etitis  (Talk) 09:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: In reverse order of appearance:
#Robth, this could get involved, but I will try to be breif. In the early to middle twentieth century historians avoided peering too closely into their subjects' love life, all the more if it was of an illicit color. More recently, with the advent of gender studies, such material has become a legitimate topic of study. Unless and until this article is titled "The Political Life of Demosthenes" this material belongs here and is of historical importance, and it belongs as placed. As for the relationships being well substantiated - Aeschines will do. Please realize that Aeschines is NOT accusing D of keeping boys. He is accusing him of misusing the boys he keeps. It is of no benefit to him to "accuse" D of keeping boys. It would be like me "accusing" you of being married. 
#Mel, I agree with your observation, especially in light of the dense footnoting of this article. There is more work to be done here, though I would add that those citations are secondary (like Nicodemus' lawsuit and murder, or Aeschines accusing D of profiting from his boys. The Dover cite was an oversight, not a fatal flaw I assume.
#Aldux, I see your point about the article being overlong. I would not be adverse if the entire Personal life section is spun off into its own article. I would also retitle this article to indicate its specialization. Haiduc 23:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It looks much better now; some good work. --Mel Etitis  (Talk) 09:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any objections to including the article in :Category:Pederasty in ancient Greece? Haiduc 11:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: External view

message: According to , Demosthenes is said to be the originator of the saying "He who fights and runs away will live to fight another day," after the defeat at Chaeronea. Seems to attribute it to a reliable source. Would it be worth adding to the article? Pegasus «C¦T» 15:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Live to Fight Another Day" remark 

message: How is "Demosthenes" pronounced? I think it should be added to the article - it doesn't seem obvious to me. --Aseld talk 20:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation?

message: Some sites say he died 12 October 322 BC.  Does thsi date have any validity?  --  JackofOz (talk) 14:39, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not know how they calculate this date. Do we have any other verifiable and reliable sources?--Yannismarou (talk) 12:41, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't know how they calculate the date, either, but it seems good enough for the Greek WP article.  --  Jack of Oz [Talk] 22:27, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

text: "Demosthenes" in the Encyclopædia Britannica,  (1878), dates it to October in one of their margin notes. Don't think they mention the 12 (the page is cut off) but it would be from converting the Greek calendar. — LlywelynII 09:34, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Date of death

message: I am correcting 'ancient Athens' for 'classical Athens' as Demosthenes' historical background.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Laocoont (talk • contribs) 09:29, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: ancient vs classical Athens

message: The sources for this article that are from the Perseus database, such as #150 are no longer valid links, and must be replaced to maintain the citation. EriktheRed53 (talk) 01:17, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Perseus sources 

message: It's a fine article and fully deserved its FA status at the time but there are some gaps that need to be filled. Example - almost nothing established the political and legal background to D's career, and his career as a logographer is hardly mentioned at all, and there seems to be no mention of his role as a synegoros, no mention of his Greek etc. In making a few changes, I find it necessary to restructure the headings a little. However, I am not making widespread changes to the article and I hope nobody will panic and start pressing revert buttons. I'm just adding the lipstick to a good-looking girl who was beginning to look a bit tawdry. McCronion (talk) 03:47, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes to a Feature Article 

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thread_title: File:BattleofIssus333BC-mosaic-detail1.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: Today, I finished a two-months period of editing in the article, which aimed to correct a series of defeciencies and to align Demosthenes with Wikipedia's and my current standards about how a high quality encyclopedic article should be. The backbone of the article remained the same and I made no significant additions (e.g. new sections or extensive rewriting of existing sections). However, I corrected inaccuracies I had missed in the past and I now found out, studying additional secondary sources, and not just the ones I used when I first (re)wrote (about five years ago? Is it already that much?!) the article. For instance, I added more scholarship backround to the Meidias case (where I previously relied only to Weil), and more information about the "theorika" spending and Eubulus role (who was inaccurately presented as completely anti-interventionist).
These were my most important edits, but I also worked on MoS, citations (e.g. backing primary with secondary sources, wherever I thought it was necessary), disambiguations, and, of course, links (many of which were dead). I even did some corrections to the timeline. All this sounds trivia, but, believe me, it was both necessary and tiring, and took me the most of the time I devoted. If you check the history of the aricle, you can check out the exact extent of my edits.
My goal was to make the article more "shiny", while keeping intact all these elements that made it FA with a broad consensus in the first place. I don't know how well I did the job, but I do believe that, at least, we still a very good encyclopedic article. I do not deny that there is always room for improvement. For instance, Eyeless in Gaza may be right when they argue that the article needs a section on Demosthenes' Greek, although I am always reluctant to any edits that might lead to an extremely big article, which risks to lose its coherence.
After all these extensive edits and work, which lasted (with some breaks) for two months, Ι think it's time to withdraw from the article for some time, as I had done before the edits. I think this is the best both for me (to distance myself from Demosthenes for some time, in order to gradually achieve once again a clearer approach towards him) and for the article (to relieve it from my possible bias and to open room for other editors with fresher ideas). I hope that, in the meantime, skilled editors, who in the past had actively shown their interest in the article — such as Eyeless in Gaza, whom I honestly thank for his valuable edits and I apoligize for being rude towards him — will keep a look at it, in order to preserve and, even more, further upgrade its quality.--Yannismarou (talk) 20:12, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I only just noticed this summary. I don't think the division into speeches is the best way to proceed, since we have articles for those speeches. However I think the FA status is deserved and the main editor has been very conscientious. I don't agree that he was rude to Eyeless. Eyeless works in Gaza, at the mill, with slaves, so a bit of jostling doesn't worry him. Anyhow, he's passed on. Thanks for your efforts to improve the article. Sir Gawain McGarson (talk) 10:05, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: My recent edits

message: Had you for Greece been strong, as wise you were, 
The Macedonian would not have conquered her.'''
Am I wrong to think that this really means "You were not strong, yet you were not wrong." or "Might does not make Right." ?
71.35.218.87 (talk) 05:09, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Read WP:OR, genius. What are you, some Skull & Bones maggot?--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 18:08, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misunderstood quote in the article 

message: I may be completely misunderstanding this, but this seems to me just wrong:
Ten drachmas is considerably more than two obols (seeing as there were six obols to the drachma, making it the smaller measurement), or am I just missing the point? Ten drachma would certainly have been considerably over the average pay for an unskilled labourer. Brigade Piron (talk) 22:06, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch. The First Philippic 28 says 10 drachma per month - so 2 obols per day. Another error with numbers: "According to Tsatsos, the trials against the guardians lasted until Demosthenes was twenty four.[162] Nietzsche reduces the time of the judicial disputes to five years" But (a) five is not a reduction from four and (b) Nietzsche predates Tsatsos  by many years, so "reduce" is thoroughly the wrong word.Furius (talk) 01:16, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Factual error? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Doesn't address his many failings, such as unnecessary and disastrous warmongering.  I suggest you start with A History of Macedonia by Errington (1988) and also Green's Alexander to Actium to give a more balanced view. 104.169.21.238 (talk) 03:33, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  article is too favorable - 

message: This article relies too heavily on ancient sources as well as several week/dated sources - Blass, Schaefer, possibly Neitzche, Grote, etc.  If the reliance on ancient/dated sources cannot be resolved, this will need to go to WP:FAR for reassessment. Hog Farm  Talk 15:33, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  FA concerns 

message: I am concerned that you are using this platform to further false information with no credible basis. Greeks single handedly ruined three civilizations with the U.S. next. As a direct descendant of both slavery and early Protestant settlers, your version of your made up character to further your Agenda is troubling. Come with facts and I am open to discussing. Thank you! EyesNeedle (talk) 08:38, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice meme, friendo. SpicyMemes123 (talk) 16:42, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Factual Information versus with verifiable sources. 

message: I have ADHD. Actually, I have both variants of ADHD. That being said, the article on Demosthenes is outstanding. I was able to read the whole thing without getting sidetracked by my disability. Kudos to whomever wrote it! SpicyMemes123 (talk) 20:59, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quality of the article