Talk:Polonization/Archive 1

message: Anyone care to POV and incorporate the following section?
The aftermath of the Polish-Ukrainian War (1918-19), the Polish-Soviet War (1919-21) and the Treaty of Riga (1921), coupled with Soviet propaganda, led to growing tensions between Poles and Ukrainians in eastern Poland.
			
However, this tensions grew in the context of hundreds of years of oppression that Ukrainian peasantry suffered earlier under the Polish rule between the 1569 Union of Lublin, when Ukrainian territories formerly controlled by largely Ruthenized Grand Duchy of Lithuania were absorbed into Poland, until the Third Partition of Poland (1795). Colonization of Ukraine  by the Polish nobility, persecution and even an attempted ban of the Eastern Orthodox Church in the Polish controlled territories following the unsuccessful attempt to convert even the Ukrainian peasantry  into the catholicism, pressures of Polonization of Ukrainian nobility and cultural elite soured the Ukrainian-Polish relationships long before the rising of Second Polish Republic.
Following Ukrainian attempt for self-determination in Galicia and Volhynia being crushed by the Polish forces  (1918-19) and an unsuccessful Polish invasion into central Ukraine (1920) aimed at installing a pro-Polish government of Symon Petlura in Kiev as part of a Polish dominated "Federation", the 1921 Treaty of Riga gave to Poland much of the largely Ukrainian populated territories in Galicia, Volhynia, Podolia and Polesia. The nationalist policies in the inter-war Poland were directed towards the Polonization and cultural assimilation of ethnic minorities contrary to the international obligation Poland had to grant the autonomy to ethnic Ukrainian territories. That time actions of Poland can best be characterized by the quote of Roman Dmowski a chief ideologue of the uniform catholic single nation state: "Wherever we can multiply our forces and our civilizational efforts, absorbing other elements, no law can prohibit us from doing so, as such actions are our duty." Hence, it was no surprise that significant tensions between Poles and Ukrainians could only increase in such climate.
Reichenbach 20:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some interwar polonization directed at Ukrainians (from Polonophobia) 

message: This article isgood, but it focus only on Polish-Ukrainian-Belorussian-Lithuanian aspect of Polonization. There isno mention about many other groups, that polonizedthemselfs without any agresive policies. What with peoples that arrived to Polish cities for centuries? Only from my own town (Poznań) there are many persons that chose Polish nationality, and defend them like Jan Baptysta Motty and his familly (with French roots), Jan Konstanty Żupański (Greek roots). Then, groups of colonist that arrived in XVI-XVIII century, like Bambrzy. In western Poland polonization of catholic Germans was also reaction on... Germanization, or more correctly on Kulturkampf (and connected with it Germanization). And what about "post world war II period"? This wad not only timeof "Wisła Operation". Poland gave shelter for other nationalities, like Greeks that had to leave their own country after civil war. Today their children has their share in Polish culture (like Eleni).
I don't want to start fight on it,  but article needs this improvement. Thats why I do not start with edition but discusion. Radomil talk 08:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What is needed to do

message: Piotrus, pls explain how this view of Pilsudski is relevant. Ukraine in Medzymorze was supposed to be, at leas formally, an independent state within federation, the state of the Ukrainian nation. What "minorities" are you talking about. --Irpen 02:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What about Ukrainians from Western Galicia? They would live in Poland one way or another. And I'd expect some Belarusians would, too. And of course Jews. Perhaps we should add something about Piłsudski's policies post-1926, i.e how his 'state assimilation' differed from endeks 'national assimilation' ( and other sources). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I totally agree. But this may be related to what P said or did towards the Ukrainians and Belarusians and Jews in the eastward eaxpanded Poland. His unrelated dispute regarding M is irrelevant. --Irpen 03:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How so? Please elaborate. I think that Piłsudski plan, certainly an alternative to endecja polonization, deserves a mention here, especially as it was a major (if not the only) alternative to it.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 03:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Since Poland was part of Międzymorze, and his idea of ethnic tolerance were applicable to the entire federation, the given sources are quite relevant.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 04:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: At least reformulate it so that it is clear what we are talking about. I can't see why you won't replace it with the sourced quote of P's attitude towards the minorities within Poland. --Irpen 04:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I think Brzeziński quote is quite good. If you recall we have a better quote, please add it. Perhaps from this: "[Piłsudski]  had a friendlier attitude toward all minorities." Few other quotes:  Despite Piłsudski's desire to avoid antagonizing ethnic minorities... (also note that it notes that ABANDONED Orthodox churches were destroyed). This seems like a fairly detailed description. This is another one. And there are more sources we can look at, but I am too tired now to check all Google Books hits now (plus I feel this current revision not that bad, feel free to look for more details if you disagree). Regarding the king vs. state issue, it is actually quite important. In PLC the king did not equal state, as frequend rokoszes and confederations proved. Few magnates were loyal to the kings throughout all generations. Does your ref. state explicitly that Orthodox magnates were loyal to the Polish kings? On the other hand my change to state was probably as bad. I'd advocate adding some qualifiers to that statement - as a rule of thumb magnates where loyal to themselves first, and to king and state only when it was in their own interests (of course, there were exceptions, but...)--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 05:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Still they could have similar views on something. For example they were both Cathlocis, they were both patriots of Poland (each an his own way), they both saw stealing wrong and they both viewed the historically and ethnically Ukrainian Eastern Galicia as rightful part of Poland. They differed too in many ways. --Irpen 07:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, Piłsudski was not a very ardent Catholic, and for few years of his life he even became a Protestant (see :pl:Kościół Ewangelicko-Augsburski w RP).  I came across no records testifying to his strong religious beliefs, but many quotes of his very critical of religion. Balcer 10:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: If you guys have any source, I think this would be a valuable addition to JP article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I see no reason why we should remove the small (one sentence) and well referenced (two refers) to Międzymorze, especially as both of the references mention his view on ethnic policies. I think the Międzymorze peferctly illustrates Piłsudski's stance on the polonization issue. Brzezinski put's it especially well in his quote, which is one of the references used for this part.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:08, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I feel we will have to agree to disagree on Międzymorze's relevance. Perhaps other editors would comment and tell us who's view has the majority support? I will see if I can find anything about Piłsudski and polonization. Btw, Zbigniew Brzezinski, a former United States National Security Advisor, seems pretty respected to me, much more then, let's say, the virtually unknown, Mikhail Meltyukhov, who has been virtually unnoticed by the Western scholarly community.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Miedzymorze

message: Right now the lead of the article seems to imply that one of the main aspects of Polonization was ... conversion of non-Catholics to Catholicism.  This certainly needs to be explained better (otherwise one may conclude that for example the Aztecs of Mexico got Polonized by the Spanish).  Just how exactly becoming a Catholic automatically made one into a Pole?  Now don't misundersntand me, I am perfectly aware that in Ukraine there was a clear relationship between being Polish and Catholic, but an English reader unfamiliar with the region might not understand this correctly, from the current version of the article anyway. Balcer 22:28, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see it an issue since the context is clear as this has nothing to do with Americas. If you see that this really is a problem, you may try rephrasing. --Irpen 07:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Polonization and Catholicism

message: Also, pls note that "cultural pressure of Polish culture" is redundant and a tautology. It was of Poland of course and, despite the PLC, there was such thing  as Poland, especially for Ruthenians, whose lands were transferred to a Polish crown. Ruthenians perceived those as Poles and the metropolia was perceived as Poland, not the "Commonwealth". This is exactly the reason why we have a partitions of Poland article rather than more correct but less reflecting of the perceptions the "Partitions of the PLC"--Irpen 07:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This likely should be rephrased, but it is important to note that unlike in the later era of nationalism, in the times of PLC any '-zation' occured more because of the attractivness of one's culture (which sometimes meant of course that if you didn't assimilate your career prospects were poorer, as other considered you a "barbarian") then because of any formal laws or state policies.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are partly right. I added an extended quote from a PD text to the refs by Kostomarov. (Please no accusations of him in Russian Imperialism, anyone familiar with Russian historiography would just lauph such accusation off for a person exiled for views that differed from the imperial mainstread) He openly admits that Ruthenian upper class ended up finding the Polish ways of life attractive, which again proves his being objective. However, your replacement weaselizes the presentation. Of course it was of Poland: religion, culture, etc. These were not always imposed by brutal force but with bans on the OC, preferential taxation, etc. it by no means resembles the attractiveness of the enlightment. Read refs. More shortly. --Irpen 03:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: pressures of what?

message: "Ruthenian nobility" was used in the same sentence twice and I replaced it with the "higher class" in the second instance. Besides, it is more inclusice as also reflecting the cultural and clerical elite, not all of which were nobles.--Irpen 07:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. I'd suggest adding the clerical part instead of going back to the class, as social class is a later invention. Or perhaps now that I see what you meant we can have both: higher class (nobility and clergy).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Class

message: The context in which Poland gained the territories is important. In no way this can be in good faith read as Red Army stopping the Polish occupation as Piotus' edit summary may imply. --Irpen 07:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nonetheless how you phrased it - unintentially, I assume - made me and likely others fall under the mistaken impression that it was so. Red Army has as much interest in defending Ukraine's independance and Ukrainian culture as Dmowski&Grabski Co.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not at all. The artilce speaks about the Red Army being able to partially deter the Polish expansion. Militarily, this is what happened. It does not mean that it was liberating the Ukrainians from the Polish rule. Liberate, in this context, is not accepted outside of the soviet historiography, unlike in "Liberation from nazism" in the WW2. I did not use it and did not imply that. --Irpen 03:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Poland's expansion

message: Also, "vast lands of UA" is misleading since it creates an impression of empty and unpopulated spaces being civilized by the settlement. The "comonization" here means  enserfement of the peasentry that was there in the first place. 
Also, the unintended consequence of a highly progressive Magdeburg law was that it became a Polonization instrument as these rights were given exclusively to towns settled by the Catholics (Germans and Jews too) who were freed from taxes the people in the Ruthenian settlements had to pay. I will work this into an article gradually. Please no hostile reverts. --Irpen 17:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Radomil, thanks! Thanks, I totally agree with you. What I was talking about is the usage of M.L. law in the Ruthenian lands as I added to the article. There is not cotradiction with what you are saying. Regards, --Irpen 18:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Colonization

message: Neither History of Russia or of the East Slavic tribes is connected to polonisation so I removed those categories.
--Molobo 15:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Molobo, the times when Polonization started, there were not yet separate Ukrainian, Russian and Belarusian nations. Hence East-Slavic is appropriate. If you doubt History of RU relevance, check your friends' using and adding strange names for such Russian cities like Smolensk and Bryansk. They did it for a reason. --Irpen 16:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, sure, all of us want to convert Russians of Smolensk into faithful Catholic, pierogi-loving, heavy-smoking Poles. //Halibutt 18:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed categories irrelevant to main article 

message: Please add a redirect to this article so a user who types Polanization will end up here. I am a new user so I do not know how to set up redirects. I typed Polanization because I thought first of "Poland" (with an "A"). But I did not find this page first, and I had to make some searches to get here. I know that this is an error but I am sure that I am not the only one who makes it. Well, keep up the good work. Bye. - Jallor 22:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect