Talk:Vancouver/Archive 4

message: Vancouver has been nominated again to become a featured article. Go to Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Vancouver to view the review and submit your support. If there are comments for improvement on the review, help out and try to improve the article to meet their requirements. Mkdwtalk 05:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Featured Article

message: The discussion about densification in downtown as city initiative currently in the first paragraph isn't by rights a "demographics" topic; it belongs somewhere else but I'm not sure; unless Architecture is retitled Architecture and Planning.  The blurb about Sullivan's pet policy seems like political bumpf; the densification of Downtown South/Yaletown, Coal Harbour and International Village/City Gate are more specific, and pre-date Smilin' Sam becoming mayor; a lot of this paragraph sounds like planner-friendly apologism, too; Vancouver's motive isn't to reduce sprawl, which is a suburban problem, but to generate more construction, hence via property value and increased population more tax revenues, and more pretense to seeming like a "world city".  And I'm a bit stunned to see almost no mention of the diversity and range of backgrounds of those of British heritage, who are the historically most important of all groups in the city (whether seen pro, or fashionably con); or the Scandinavians and others who have been here from the beginning; there is, in other words, a fascination/confabulation with non-white demographics in this section, and in the demographics article.  Both should be in terms of at least showing some interest in other groups; particularly the Brits, in all their diversity.  That Vancouver also had the largest from-Europe component, and from-Britain components, than any other part of the country, ever since its founding - even moreso than the Prairies, should also be noted.  Also the highest rates of interethnic and interracial marriage, despite the latter-day pretension that BC was the most racist part of the country (nobody else got the chance to be racist because of the relatively mono-ethnic nature of communities in other parts of the country; even in the Prairies certain ethnic groups dominate certain small towns, and non-whites were rare from the Rockies to the Atlantic, other than aboriginal and black Canadians in ON and NS.Skookum1 08:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Demographics section intro

message: The reason that they are both is that many Latin Americans here are ladino or criolla stock, i.e. upper-class, more white than mestizo; although there are lots of mestizos.  I have several Argentinem, Chilean and Brazilian friends/acquaintances who are not "visible" as minorities, albeit they are certainly "audible" and recognizable; "visible" Latin Americans, i.e. of mestizo background, tend to be from Mexico, Central America, and northwestern South America, although many Mexicans living here now are definitely from the ladino/white upper class stock.  In general I think "visible" and "non-visible/invisible" designation of minorities is unworkable in Vancouver; "audible" is far more relevant, since there are assimilated Chinese and Japanese as well as assimilated Scandinavians and Poles; i.e. trying to categorize people by colour just doesn't work, especially in complex cases like people of US or Latin American origin (many blacks in the city, for instance, are US in origin, others from Africa, others from Europe/Britain, others from the Caribbean and sometimes Latin America; so who's what?).  Given the racial multiplicity of Vancouver now I think the term "minority" is also an unwelcome transplant from US civil rights jargon that has outlived its usefulness here; especially in Richmond and Vancouver where there is no clear majority any longer.  BTW cites for the new British-stock mention at the opening of the demographics section are the various Canadian censuses (censi?) and also Strangers Entertained (cf. Talk:English-Canadians).Skookum1 20:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Skookum's comments came after I removed something about Latin Americans being a non-visible minority from the article. Certainly there are lots folks from Argentina elsewhere in LA that do not think of themselves and are not perceived by others to be minorities (in many areas, "whiteness" in Latin American is also a sign of economic class, which aint so much true here anymore, though Shaughnessy is still pretty white). I would hazard to guess though, that this represents a minority of Latin American immigrants in Vancouver; in any case, it's not a generalization that holds. "Canadianized" Latin Americans also complicate simple categorization. Also, the Greektown (Vancouver) article explains that the 'hood on West Broadway aint as Greek as it once was, and "Greek Days" has only recently been revived there. I think there was some violence in the 80s so they shut it down for a while, or maybe they were just having too much fun. But yeah, I don't think there's any one area anymore known as the place for souvlaki. The Little Italy (Vancouver) article claims that that title no longer holds for Commercial Drive, but IMO, it's arguable in that case, despite all the yuppies, bohemians, and all the rest that account for Drive "culture" along with the Italians (i.e., it's not monocultural as this article states).Bobanny 16:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latin Americans - visible or invisible/non-visible? 

message: ...have people been mucking up the footnotes? After hearing many comments about how a lot of the footnotes were inconsistently and/or improperly formatted, and after dropping hints for someone else to do it, and realizing this was a major sticking point for the fac, I took on the tedious task of systematically going through them and fixing them. Now I see that the retreival dates have been removed from most (but not all) of the notes, same with the ISBN numbers (just the number, not "ISBN" for some reason), and other things (like changing the name of BC Studies to British Columbia Studies, which is NOt the name of that rag), and possibly other things. I can't imagine why these changes were made, perhaps it was some malfunctioning wikipedia "bot" turned evil and retaliating against its human oppressors, but if it was you, please fix 'em. Thank you. Bobanny 04:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess not. I went through and restored the citations. Please try and keep them standardized. Thanks, Bobanny 21:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why, oh Why 

message: Nice article, but I think that the infobox is confusing. It is not clear if the Pop'n rank and the Metro rank is within Canadian cities or world cities. Plus, it is also unclear for someone who has no knowledge about Canadian politics wether the members of parliament and legislative assembly represent the city, the district or the province . CG 18:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: hmm...good points. IMO, these are more appropriately addressed in the article (I added the MP/MLA thing for clarity to the article). The info box can't realistically elaborate on the info it contains or else it's value gets muddled (others have complained that it's too big). That's my two cents anyway. Anyone else? Bobanny 19:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments about the infobox 

message: Vancouver is now a featured article. Thank you all for your tireless contributions in making Vancouver one of the newest Featured Articles. If you wish to help out with other Vancouver related articles, please visit the WikiProject Vancouver. Mkdwtalk 00:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since this article has become a featured article, further contributions will be closely watched to ensure the quality and integrity are maintained to Featured Article criteria. Mkdwtalk 11:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vancouver Featured Articled

message: :Gung Haggis Fat Choy as a title would fail en.wikipedia as it is not the english-use name of the festival. It would be a suitable title on the Chinese Wikipedia. To comply with the English Wikipedia naming convention, the title should be the Dragon Boat Festival or Lunar New Year Parade and then mention its other names. On a side note this does not really have racial tension, just conflicts with Wikipedia's naming convention on non-english titles. Mkdwtalk 12:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These are all different things. Gung Haggis Fat Choy is a combo Chinese/Scottish celebration and so far as I know, is Vancouver specific, so on that basis, I think it would be a good example. It's a local thing though, so it might need to take up some space explaining what the heck it is.Bobanny 21:25, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just think of haggis as a giant wonton stuffed with...what the heck is it stuffed with again?Skookum1 01:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We're talking about Haggis as part of the name of an event in Vancouver and not the Scottish food Haggis. I do not understand your point about Mandrin or Cantonese having the letter 's'? 春节, or 农历新年|t=春節, or 農曆新年, or Gung Hei Fat Choy are all ways to write the same thing. Gung Hei Fat Choy in this case is an example of Pinyin, a very common and officially accepted form of writing Mandrin or Cantonese words. Mkdwtalk 05:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are there Chinese syllables that end in "s", is what I meant; "dos", "was", "brass" and so on in English; Chinese syllables certainly start with 's', but in all my years of exposure to transliterated Chinese (and Japanese) I've never seen a word ending in 's'.  And "hei" has nothing to do with "haggis"; the name Gung Haggis Fat Choy is meant as a jokename, as instigated by its founder (a Chinese member of the SFU pipe band; it began as a conversion of Robbie Burns Day into an intercultural event, as SFU always had a "piping in of the haggis" on Robbie Burns Day (Jan 25)); and it's not held on Chinese New Year, except when the Lunar New Year coincides with Robbie Burns Day or thereabouts; the event includes readings from Burns, including I think some translated into Chinese; e.g. "wee slikkit" (or "wee sleekit"?) is "tiny mouse" in Scots English (it's the opening words of one of Burns' most popular rhymes).Skookum1 06:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry to disagree with you, Mkdw, but the name of the event is "Gung Haggis Fat Choy". There's no conflict whatsoever with WP:UE, as there is no "translated" name. The "Use English" conventions are intended for cases like Turin and Torino, where there is the possibility of confusion - the idea being that if there is a common English version, use it as opposed to a non-English version. --Ckatzchatspy 00:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, how do you say "Gung Haggis Fat Choy" in French anyway?Skookum1 01:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see the relevence of this. Firstly, Gung Haggis Fat Choy would most likely borrow the use of the English (Canadian) spelling of it as described in WP:UE as per the second paragraph. However, if there is more than one name used for it, an English and Pinyin spelling of it, then stated under WP:EU you would use the english spelling. In the case of other festivals with common names: Chinese New Year (English), 春节 (Mandrin), and  nouvelle année chinoise (French). Technically in this case you could use Gung Hei Fat Choy but that's just a step from 春节, so why aren't we using 春节? For the same reasons we should be using Chinese New Year over Gung Hei fat Choy. Just my opinion. Mkdwtalk 05:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As explained above, but here for good measure, it's not the same as Chinese New Year, although I think it may be that its "first time out" was in a year when the Lunar New Year did coincide with Robbie Burns Day (or nearly; the 27th vs Burns Day's 25th).  I have a "degree of separation" to the event's founder via SFU so I'll see what I can found out if he's come up with a Chinese translation for the name of the event; but I repeat - it's NOT the same as the event for which "Gung Hay Fat Choy" (as it's traditionall been transliterated into English, at least here in Vancouver until recently).Skookum1 06:07, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you're misreading my comments. I in no way stated Gung Haggis Fat Choy was remotely related to Gung Hei Fat Choy. If you read above I said, "In the case of other festivals" and then went on to use the Chinese New Year as an example of how in Canada, festivals have three names: their mandrin, Pinyin, and english names. I'm well aware of their differences in the festivals. Mkdwtalk 10:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Toddish McWong must have come up with a Chinese name for the event, then, as he's been interviewed in the Chinese media; are you sure there's no Chinese-language web entries on it...of course I guess you'd have to know which character to google it with, wouldn't ya?  Hmmm.....Skookum1 01:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Can I move this debate over the name of Gung Haggis Fat Choy to :Talk:Gung Haggis Fat Choy? It certainly doesn't belong here as it's a total digression from my original question below. -TheMightyQuill 04:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gung Haggis Fat Choy name discussion 

message: Would Gung Haggis Fat Choy which already has its own article be a good example of harmony, either replacing or adding to the Dragon Boat Festival and Lunar New Year's Day Parade? -- TheMightyQuill 05:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Awesome, when/where are Greek days? I think the increasing prominence of Diwali  can be backed up with references, and highlights the large South Asian population. Dragon Boat festival is pretty huge, so I wouldn't ignore it. I'm not sure St. Patrick's day parade is a display of racial tolerance anymore than celebrating Halloween is a sign of religious tolerance for Wicca. =) Besides, it hardly sets Vancouver apart. I've never actually heard of the Lunar New Year's Day Parade but I'd never heard of Gung Haggis Fat Choy (lit. trans: Congratulations and Best Wishes for Offal, oatmeal and stomach) outside of wikipedia either. On the other hand, the latter demonstrates the kind of fusion ocurring in Vancouver, and since it has an well referenced article already... -- TheMightyQuill 02:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: About Halloween in Vancouver: true enough it's not unique to Vancouver, but the city is known for being one of the North American cities which takes the night "more seriously" than most others; San Francisco and New Orleans supposedly celebrate it in high style, and I think New York (which does everything in high style, needless to say); but there's an "edge" on Vancouver's that's more than a bit "gothic" and grand guignol (as also San Fran and the Big Easy), including more adult involvement; in the UK for example and in most American cities it's more of a kid's thing, or heavily commercialized as the new trend in Haunted House events has turned into Big Business ($50 million this year, or more; saw it on a news special); but in Vancouver it spills over into the streets as an adult event (again, as also in San Fran and the Big Easy).  Detroit has "Devil's Night", the 30th (my b-day, BTW), which is a regular nightmare - not as bad as it used to be, but at one time Detroit would see upwards of 300 major arsons on the night before Halloween...thankfully that doesn't happen here, although there's an extremely high rate of "tricks" of the vandalism variety.  Not sure where to cite that but it's part of North American Halloween lore for years,Skookum1 07:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Greek Day is on West Broadway in the summer (I was there this year but can't remember which weekend), and while the vendors and entertainers are predominantly - and only predominantly - Greeks, there just aren't as many Greeks in Vancouver as there are people who throng West Broadway; actually it's only one day now so it's probably only "Greek Day"; it used to be the whole weekend before it was cancelled due to booze riots back in the '80s (as was also the fate of the old Sea Festival).  It's one of those things where everyone's Greek for the day, as is the long tradition with St. Pat's, when everyone's Irish.  And St. Pat's Parade, now only a few years old but one of the most popular and lively things in the city, is tantamount to Carnaval due to its timing and the "spring thaw" in the Vancouver psycho-bipolarity which is now set in, thanks to the last miserable month of rain and dark (one day I'll write a book featuring "the Vancouver syndrome", aka "Vancouveritis"); not quite as wild as Carnival or Mardi Gras, sadly enough, but turning into an all-round good time.  And it's not so much about racial tolerance as cultural fusion; Chinese/Filipino step-dancers (i.e. Riverdance style in traditional Irish costumes), multiracial bhangra troupes bhangra, Finnish fiddle waltzers, Capoeira and samba outfits, West Indian bands (calypso and steel band), Irish and Scots and Welsh organizations, dance troupes and bands (it's pan-Celtic, unlike New York's or Chicago's, which are both pointedly Irish in flavour); I think the "Munin" Viking longship run by the Scandinavian Centre is towed through the parade - which runs down Granville but I'm not sure from where to where, and there's more of that kind of thing (floats of various kinds, but all non-commercial; i.e. no tacky bigbox-store advertising dorkiness like Toronto's Santa Claus Parade, which for those of us limited to broadcast TV was inflicted upon as by Global last Saturday morning - Vancouver's Santa Claus parade, or any parade here, doesn't of course rate being broadcast to Toronto...but for some reason they think we want to watch theirs, or should); I think St. Pat's also including some notable original bands/pop music, though no really big names (yet); IIRC the Yale Hotel has a blues-band float, for instance.  It's easily the most cultural polyglot and crossover event of the year, despite being brand-new and in spite of the federal government's efforts to repaint Dominion Day that way (now named Canada Day, which always struck us old-timers as tacky).  I think the Shriner's Gizeh Temple Band is also in the show, which in and of itself is intercultural (and I've heard a real Ottoman military band or "Mehter band" and the Shriners aren't that far off the real meal deal; I think I also recall seeing a salsa outfit, and there's definitely various high school brass bands, including some of the top-notch ones from the US; I'm pretty sure the HMCS Discovery brass band makes the show as well and so on it goes...postscript: belly dance troupes and Hawaiian dance troupes, all multiracial/multiethnic in composition; there's also a Lion Dance or Dragon Dance in the parade.  It's quite the show, and if I'm in town I intend to get there in person this year (I hate crowds, as you might guess).Skookum1 05:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: St. Pat's Parade, Greek Days and other intercultural happenings

message: I've noticed the occasional dispute over whether to use Scotland's flag or the Union Jack's flag for the sister city section, so I checked out what the standard is for other cities on Wikipedia. I discovered that there is none. To the person who insists that sovereignty is the correct measure and therefore it should be the Union Jack, check out: Florence; Alexandria, Virginia; Sarasota, Florida; San Diego; Nice; Xi'an; Munich; and Tokyo for examples that use the Scottish flag instead of the Union Jack. Other cities don't mention sister cities at all. My guess is that the closest thing to a compromise is to use both flags (since both places are mentioned anyway), for which there are also plenty of precedents, such as: Sarasota, Florida; Havanna; Washington D.C.; Turin; Yantai; and Dunedin.  Bobanny 17:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: just to note St. Andrew's Cross, without the lion shield, is found within the Union Jack.  I think there's also some issue as to what the actual national flag of the UK is; the Union Jack, which is emblematic of the union and the state, or the monarch's standard, which is the embodiment of the state.  A technical heraldic issue, truly, but an interesting aside.  My sentiment's with the St. Andrew's flag...what's used for Cardiff or Swansea, if their sister cities have flag-links.  Do they use the Welsh gryphon or the Union Jack?Skookum1 07:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag Wars 

message: I was surprised to see no mention at all about the growing television and movie industry in and around Vancouver. Several U.S. television shows are filmed in the area. Some even call Vancouver "Hollywood North." I think there should be a new category titled "Hollywood North" in quotes, along with a description of the industry and its history in Vancouver. There could also be a link to a more detailed article about the industry, as well as a section that lists all the TV shows and movies that have been and are being filmed in the Vancouver area.
There could also be links to TV-related sites like Hollywood North Report and official sites for shows that are filmed there, like Battlestar Galactica, Smallville, Stargate Atlantis, Stargate SG-1, and The X-Files (which was filmed in Vancouver during its early seasons). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123home123 (talk • contribs) 
:The article currently says "In recent years, Vancouver has become an increasingly important centre for software development, biotechnology and a vibrant film industry."  Maybe you can add supporting details to the existing Hollywood North article.  Though considering how poorly received nicknames are in Wikipedia, a Film industry in Vancouver article might be more appropriate.  There's also a list of filming locations in and around Vancouver.  --Ds13 16:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Television and movie industry in Vancouver 

message: I've requested a peer review for this article. If you're interested in giving some feedback, click here. Thanks, Bobanny 00:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Pauline Johnson]]

message: Vancouver's port exports more cargo than any other port in Norht America...what about New York or Los Angeles?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TotallyTempo (talk • contribs) 21:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have numbers for those cities that cause you to doubt Vancouver's status?  From the reference in this article: "The Port of Vancouver is North America's gateway for Asia-Pacific trade. It is large by world standards. In North America, it ranks #1 in total foreign exports. On the West Coast, it ranks #3 in total cargo volume and #3 for full foreign containers. In Canada it ranks #1 in total cargo handled and #1 in total container throughput." The link also gives numerical stats for comparison. Those are 2005 numbers. --Ds13 22:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Also, reference #6 in the article, predates this comment by about 8 months, gives the source of that fact. The source is the Vancouver Port Authority in relation to the City of Vancouver government and Statisics Canada. Both of which are the most credible sources. Mkdwtalk 22:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's also a bit of a PR game. I believe the ref states that Vancouver exports the most by weight, which in economic terms isn't the important consideration, value is. It probably also is indicative that the Canadian economy is still largely resource-dependent (those trees are heavy!) despite the growth of the service and information sectors, whereas the Yanks likely ship out more value-added stuff. I'm guessing China probably has impressive numbers by volume, but that a lot of that volume would be things like Hello Kitty pencil cases. But for our purposes, it's less to sound impressive than a convenient way to concisely emphasize that it's a heckuvva busy and lucrative port.Bobanny 23:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Port