Talk:East Francia

message: In my view it has political reasons ( the EU and the Frensh view of history) why the coronation  of Karl the great is not seen as the beginning of the holy roman empire. It is logical that this is so because:
1.Before there was only the Emperor von East Rom the emperors of West Rom was an invention of the Pope as Protector of the Pope and Rome. So the emperor was seen as worldly man of God on the throne. In the Moment the Pope put the Crone on the Head of Karl the Great this Imperer was in the West as Christian Roman protecting Imperor first time existing. So : 'Holy Roman Empire from 25.December 800'
2. A split sais nothing. Actualy the Franconian country was splitting 3 times but the  German part inherreded Rom so the east is the true sucessor, what ever the Frensh are thinking- they splited from the empire not the other way around
3. The main Capital Aachen and the most holy place Comprai ( St Martin Protector of the empire) was still in the east. 
4. This time the border they splittet along, ( third split) was the languageline because beween them where huge uninhanited woods, witch later would become Frensh by settling( The Latin Population splittet from the Frankonian part but caped the name)
5.What was the name of the empire Frankonian empire. Who where the Frankonians. The midle Germans . To day: Rheinland, Hessen ( Frankfurt!)and northern Bavaria called then Upperfrankonians, the Dutch called then Lower Frankonians.
6 Was Karl the Great frensh? His mother was from Colonge, so the first what he heard was old German and later Latin. He was born on the Langugeline near Lüttich his father was probably frensh - german mixed, so Karl the Great was 3/4 Germanic and spoke besides Latin.
This all together shows that the real founding date of the Holy Roman Empire was the Christmasday 800 when the Pope put the crown on the head of Karl the Great.
See articel "Holy Roman Empire"
This was seen like this all the way thrue history till the EU was founded and the Germans had to be nice to the Frensh, suddenly this logical view changed and a lot of books where written why the Holy Roman Empire was founded 911 or 962. and not 800. ( 911 was the date seen by the German Empire 1870 till 1918, it was fitting for them to cover the connection with the Frensh history) In 962 the borders where about like the German boders now political very fitting for the newly founded federal Republic. Calming down and covering the losses of the war with a historical map wich shows Germany in the Beginning simelar like now.
Why the Frensh kept the name ? 
Till the revolution the nobility traced it rights from being from Frankonian desendent. That was probably allthaugh the reason why they kept this name for the country. 
In Germany soon the Frankonians where not so importend as a tribe anymore. The Saxons became the importend tribe, later the Shwabian (Allemanic) So there had to be a new name for all 5 Germanic tribes ( Alemanic, Franconian, Saxon, Bavarian, Thueringish - still the main dialects).This name  was found during the middle age, the people said they speak the language of the people witch means in Latin: Deotish from this came Duitsch, Dutch, Deutsch.
Why they did not call themself Germans. Eighter the christian Priests where not happy about this or because they knew to well that there are Germans in England and in the Scandinavic areas too.
(the above posted by) Johann
: In those days there was no frensh or german...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.184.136.18 (talk) 08:52, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The Talk Pages are not for idle discussion of the subject WP:FORUM and most certainly not for Original Research.HammerFilmFan (talk) 11:48, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: '''Beginning of the Holy Roman Empire in Question !''' - but, Wiki and the Talk Pages are not for Original Research

message: re:  Removed, apparently belatedly
: 1) improperly hung... read the danged directions on the template
: 2) No Talk section with tag-wallpaper hanger's justification or rationale.
: 3) Common talks need initialized... See (2) 
: 4) No merit... Try getting into the right century. Francia was a long way from being Germany. // FrankB 03:30, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed {&#123;Mergeto&#125;} 2008-07-12 

message: I propose merging the so-called Kingdom of Germany article into here, as it is a fork of the East Francia article. Mootros (talk) 04:12, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: John K, what do you mean? East Francia is used more than Kingdom of Germany.  Machinarium (talk) 20:17, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It is limited in the sense that it only refers to the early history of the kingdom.  It is not used to refer to the Salian and Hohenstaufen periods. john k (talk) 14:24, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the point, that from the Salian and Hohenstaufen periods we already refer to it as HRE. Mootros (talk) 04:18, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That's just wrong.  Germany/East Francia was only one of the component parts of the Holy Roman Empire, which also included the Kingdom of Italy and, eventually, the Kingdom of Burgundy.  Later on, in the early modern period, the Kingdom of Burgundy had ceased to exist and the kingdom of Italy had become largely a legalistic fiction, so it's reasonable at that point to use "Holy Roman Empire" as a synonym for the kingdom originally called East Francia and later called the Regnum Teutonicum, but that's certainly not the case in the High Middle Ages. john k (talk) 16:07, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

text: *This discussion should have been closed long ago. It is obvious there is no consensus for merging Kingdom of Germany into East Francia. As for the opposite merger, it was mooted on the other talk page and Mootros obviously believed it had consensus. It appears it does not. In any case, the East Francia article has never been sourced properly in all the years it's been here. I see no harm in redirecting it provisionally until somebody actually takes the time to write an article conforming to our standards. Also, the existence of the German kingdom in the Middle Ages has been discussed ad nauseum at the other talk page for years. Needless to say, one side has lost every argument. Srnec (talk) 03:20, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: *I see, my bold move has been changed back. Note this is not about winning or loosing, especially when a few vocal editors hold a page random for years. It is about finding a pragmatic compromise to an ongoing problem. Mootros (talk) 16:36, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger proposal

message: Seems like this discussion is dead since 2013. On account of keeping consistency between Wikipedia articles, I suppose the infobox is either to be removed completely from all three (this, West Francia, East Francia) or kept in all three. Until that, if there are in two remaining articles, this one also should have one.Ernio48 (talk) 01:19, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: What's the basis for the assertion of the infobox that "East Francia blends into the Holy Roman Empire" in 962? Srnec (talk) 00:01, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: If you are aware of a definitive date East Francia came to an end, feel free to contribute.Ernio48 (talk) 09:21, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That's just the point. There is no such date, either in fact or by historical convention. Use of the term "East Francia" certainly drops off in English for the period after 962, but the infobox gives the impression of underlying constitutional change. Srnec (talk) 13:01, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: ==========

message: Srnec, this is where you are not correct. As recommended, I looked up footnote 2, and this is what it states Goldberg 2006, 6: "Louis [the German's] kingship laid the foundations for an east Frankish kingdom that, in the eleventh century, was transformed into the medieval kingdom of Germany". Please note, it says "east Frankish kingdom that, in the eleventh century, was transformed into the medieval kingdom of Germany" ...key word 11th century (the 1000's). HRE was formed in 962 (the 10th century) so this text does not say what you initially argue it says. Most content states that East Francia merged into HRE, once with in HRE the stem duchies were collectively called the kingdom of Germany. --E-960 (talk) 22:34, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The wikitext says "East Francia becoming the Kingdom of Germany". The footnote says "an east Frankish kingdom that, in the eleventh century, was transformed into the medieval kingdom of Germany". Everything is fine. You just don't like it. Srnec (talk) 00:21, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: As you know there is a lot of ambiguity about the term kingdom of Germany, as a matter of fact you can't even point to a date when it was formed. It was was a collective term for the German speaking stem duchies, not an official name. --E-960 (talk) 11:25, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  HRE 

message: Hello! I've been wondering if East Francia has a flag! 
I'm asking because apparently it does, but I'm not sure if it's real, if it is, am I allowed to add it?
Image: :File:Flag of East Francia (843–962).png Republic of Venice284 (talk) 16:29, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks fake to me. The battle standard of the Ottonians, for example, showed the Archangel Michael. This is called a Kriegsfahne (war banner), but it apparently isn't. Srnec (talk) 02:27, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does East Francia have a flag? If so, should it be added?