Talk:Scooter Libby/Archive 8

message: Scooter just got his prison ID number: 28301-016, but I don't know where this can be inserted.  I want to put it in his biography box in the top right, but where is an appropriate place?  If you see a good place, you can place it in the article, I just think this would be a good addition.Billy Nair 18:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is your reliable and verifiable source for this information? --NYScholar 19:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since posting this [question], I've found reliable and verifiable source(s) and added the related content and citations to this article and to the one on United States v. Libby (see related proposal above).  I still don't think that it is appropriate to put Libby's "prison number" (as per the citation to Apuzzo's AP article) in the infobox.  If editors disagree, please provide Wikipedia links to other Wikipedia biographies of living persons (well known public figures) who have such prison numbers in their infoboxes. (see my earlier comment posted below and above.)--NYScholar 19:39, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here is a WWW.BOP.GOV (Federal Bureau of Prisons) link to Scooter's info including his ID number: http://www.bop.gov/iloc2/InmateFinderServlet?Transaction=NameSearch&needingMoreList=false&LastName=libby&Middle=lewis&FirstName=i&Race=U&Sex=U&Age=&x=337&y=293 With the .GOV domain I am pretty sure most people will believe it is fairly reliable.  You are right about the infobox issue, it doesn't need to be in there, it was just something I was thinking about at that time, but like you said, other prisoners don't have theirs in the box either (but it is something I think would add to the "information gathering" Wikipedia is designed for)  From what I have read on other news sites, if I understood it correctly, this ID number is his to keep forever, if ever he gets busted for dealing crack in Yosemite (a federal crime) this would be the number they use for that trial too.  I saw that you added his ID# in the footnotes (in this and the other article), I was hoping for a "in article" location, but I guess as long as it is in here somewhere I can sleep at night.Billy Nair 16:47, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: In general reply: I don't think it's appropriate or necessary to "insert" his prison number in an infobox for Libby.  What is appropriate is updating the content of the article on USA v. LIBBY (and current article relating to it in this article), citing a reliable source, which I find to be, e.g.,
*Cary O'Reilly, "Libby, Ex-Cheney Aide, Must Go to Jail During Appeal (Update2)", Bloomberg.com, 2 July, 2007, accessed 2 July, 2007.
(and/or w/ citation[s] to other reliable and verifiable news accounts/articles.  The "prison number" would need to be reliably and verifiably sourced with such an account in a "full citation."  I may work on doing that. But see my previous discussion.  The information (update) is most pertinent to United States v. Libby, and I think that cross-linking to that article would work (as I state above).  I have not seen "prison numbers" in other infoboxes or articles about convicted felons in Wikipedia.  If there are, please add some links so that we can see them as examples. --NYScholar 19:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also added the citation to Matt Apuzzo's AP news release about this development. --NYScholar 19:39, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

text: For examples of infoboxes for other American criminals, see the project category and consult specific biographies; e.g., John Gotti has no "prison number" inserted in the infobox about him. To insert it in the infobox for Lewis Libby seems inappropriate.  I cited the information in a quotation from Apuzzo as an annotation in that note citation.--NYScholar 19:45, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Prison ID Number

message: Currently, the news about the commutation is under "Presidential Pardon".   This does NOT belong under the section discussing pardon options, as the commutation of the sentence was NOT a pardon (and he's still being fined, and some other minor punishments).  Kindly edit.BlueSapphires 23:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: [Thanks for posting this.  Sorry I forgot to say that first.]  I've done what I can; I have to go offline now.  Others can work on fixing the remaining typographical formatting and other problems.  I fixed the info box a while ago in Lewis Libby and the related parts of United States v. Libby.  Ongoing vigilance obviously needed for these articles.  [Making such changes does not require the attention of administrators; would prev. ed. consider removing the caps of sec heading? ("Shouting" not Wikipedia etiquette as well)].  --NYScholar 23:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I've condensed the sections again (and tried to clarify that the commutation is not a pardon - feel free to clarify it even further, if it is not clear). The commutation section is too small to stand on its own, from a layout perspective; if there is more info coming later, it can be eventually split, but not when it only consists of two sentences. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 00:09, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for posting this; I just saw your comments here; I expanded the section with an appropriate q. from the document; the condensed heading referring to a "Presidential pardon" in place of the current "Presidential pardon issue" was still misleading and inaccurate; Libby has not been pardoned.  The q. from the President's longer "Statement" (linked via the citation) documents that.  It's no longer only two sentences.  I expect that as reactions to the action are published in reliable and verifiable sources, this section may have some more added to it (as long as it doesn't get too long).  See my proposal regarding shortening this article (the article on United States v. Libby has much of the same content as do the articles on the other cross-linked subjects in Wikipedia.  (Please scroll up.) Thanks.  --NYScholar 00:27, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New section needed to mention commutation  - ADMIN ATTENTION NEEDED

message: Various passages describing this novel (sometimes improperly sourced) have been in this article for a very long time. (Examine the full editing history over an extended period of time.) Removal of [pertinent and significant] reliably- and verifiably-sourced information violates Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:POV.  The claims in the editing summary by the editor deleting the descriptions of the novel from the account in The Guardian about the motives of this editor (me) are false and violate WP:NPA and WP:AGF.  See the abitration comments provided regarding various disputed parts of this article.  I object to his false characterization of my motives in the editing summary.  They are unfair and they violate WP:AGF.  I edited the passage changed by another editor so as to provide the source and accurate quotation from it.  The earlier editor had deleted properly-sourced quotations and then made a statement with no source to document it (one which had been in this article a long time ago).  I deleted that pejorative statement and simply quoted from the cited source, the  critique published in The Guardian, which is a reliable and verifiable source in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia:Reliable sources.  If the editor wants to be "sympathetic" to Libby as he says in the arbitration comments, that is his own point of view, but it is not Wikipedia policy.  Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is Wikipedia policy. The cited source provides a much-needed description of this novel that is not from only the author (Libby's) point of view.  To cite only the author's point of view on his own work [which I incorporated in the block quotation earlier, counter to the claims in the editing summary about motives] is not in keeping with either Wikipedia:Neutral point of view or WP:POV.  To cite only Larry King's laudatory description of the novel made in 2002 [which I had also incorporated but which another user deleted subsequently] belies later descriptions of the novel made since then.   fuller perspective on this novel is presented in the article in The Guardian and in many other potential sources; it/they can be cited in keeping with Wikipedia policies.  Otherwise a false impression of the author's "creative writing" is presented in this article.  It leaves out acknowledgment in the text of its post-2002 critical reception. --NYScholar 10:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added another source (USA Today article), which describes the novel in terms similar to those in the Guardian article; it is a description that used to be in this Wikipedia article on Libby in unsourced statements made by other editors (review the editing history). --NYScholar 10:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The reference to Stephen Smith's account of the novel's reception used to be in this article on Libby; somewhere along the line it got deleted. I've added it back in, followed by the citation. In my editing summary, I observe that it might be useful to have additional development (from other points of view) of the more recent reception of the novel (briefly). (Following Libby's conversation w/ King, the novel has not been made into a movie.) --NYScholar 13:00, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Accusing other editors of trying to cast the subject of the article in a bad light is an AGF violation.  Therefore, stick to comments about article content. Any NPOV overview of "reviews and popularity" will note the fact that many commentators noted these prurient details.  They may have intended to cast Libby in a bad light, who knows, but whatever their motives, it is our duty to insure the article reflects the true nature of this commentary, and not just favorable commentary. Please respect the work of others and don't delete it with the offensive suggestion they are motivated by the intent to libel. Gamaliel (Orwellian Cyber hell master) 02:03, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reread my comment.  I didn't accuse anyone of trying to cast the subjct in a bad light.  I stated as fact that prurient details extracted as such IS a BLP violations.  That's a comment on content.  Please see other authors bios where the content of what they write about is in braod subjects, not prurient details.  See Stephen King.  Subjecting Libby to additional details violates BLP, and undue weight.  Regardless of what his critics have said, we are an encyclopedia that must adhere to NPOV and BLP.  --Tbeatty 02:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

text: See the main article on the book, which is now cross-referenced in this article: The Apprentice (book).  Libby's notability and notoriety are such that his biography is governed by WP:BLP#Well known public figures.  Critical reception of the book's [imprints] [first ed., 2 paperback eds.--reprintings] (pre- and post- Plame affair) is well documented in that main article.  [If one wants to do so, one can develop that article further.]  Apparently, many commentators have focused on the novel's "prurient details"; its sexual "prurience", for example, is a striking feature of the book, according to such reviews.  The article on Libby does not engage in "original research"; it reports published points of view on Libby and his work, including his single published novel.  WP:NOR as well as Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, WP:POV, and Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles all apply here, within the policies stated in WP:BLP; I see no violations of WP:BLP, particularly WP:BLP#Well known public figures in this article (currently).   Again: WP:AGF; many of us are being highly vigilant about any such possible violations and deleting them on sight (as per WP:BLP, and we have been doing so for several months.  --NYScholar 23:21, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Libby's novel

message: I think our readers would be better served if we emphasized what investigators such as Patrick Fitzgerald knew - and when they knew it.
The two main themes of the Plame affair are:
#Who revealed what to the public (and did they have a legal or moral right to do so?)
#Who in the legal community found out about inappropriate leaks, and what legal action did they take against the leakers?
Conservatives and liberals disagree, of course, on what is "moral" or "inappropriate" - and may even wrangle over how to apply the law - but who know what when seems to be pretty well agreed upon by both sides. --Uncle Ed 13:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: These matters would seem to be more appropriate for a discussion forum not a Wikipedia talk page (see tagged notice above: ["This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Lewis Libby article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject."]).  Some of the matters are already appropriately developed in the main articles (already cross-linked) on the Plame affair and its own cross-linked articles, such as the "See also" items such as Plame affair timeline (still a poorly-documented article, in my view).  See the talk pages of those articles.  This biographical article on Lewis Libby is not the place to debate the subject of the article (not a forum on the subject of Libby or the Plame affair)--see the tagged notice at the top of this page.  Moreover, Wikipedia editors are not what Wikipedia terms "reliable and verifiable" sources--Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Verifiability--on these matters of legality and morality; such discussions must be documented with material found in published sources that are considered "reliable and verifiable," and those are already cited in the other article(s). So please see the other articles (listed in "See also" and the cross-linked references throughout) for further information.  Thanks very much.  --NYScholar 14:13, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: [Updated further by adding Wikipedia and WP links above; see the problematic edit just reverted by another user due to lack of documentation; those matters are already discussed in the Plame affair anyway and see the short section here on Armitage. --NYScholar 14:22, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Timeline of investigative knowledge

message: Valerie Plame's name should link to her page.  I feel it would help balance out the article, readers would be able to understand her situation and the weight of Libby's crime.Becomingcloser 14:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Valerie Plame's name does link to the article about her: Valerie Plame aka Valerie E. Wilson.  I'm not sure why you say that it doesn't.  Wikipedia policy, however, is not to use the links over and over.  They are used sparingly and when useful, not every single time a person's name is mentioned in an article.  (I'll check to see if a link needs to be added earlier in article or some other remedy.)  See also sections contain related articles.  Relevant cross-referenced articles contain Wikified links to her name/article too. --NYScholar 14:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems that some are removing such links; hard to keep up with the deletions; I restored some links to the names of Joseph and Valerie Wilson and some other people so that they link to the pertinent Wikipedia articles about them.  (Recent editing history.) --NYScholar 03:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Link to Valerie Plame

message: Just a casual observation but there seems no reason for a link to Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs, it is never mentioned in the article, and Libby's pro-Israel position is only a small part of his life, treated as such, and not related specifically to this organization.  Linking to this organization may hint at a connection between Libby and it which does not exist or exists only in the most tenuous form, while other see also links would have been much more appropriate.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.82.227.151 (talk • contribs)  13:02, July 3, 2007 (UTC)
hehehehehehe! just a small part of his life? that is like saying the catholic church is a small part of the pope's life.
:Please sign comments w/ four tildes.  Thanks.  I added the unsigned template above.  There are sources documenting the inclusion of the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA).  There is considerable discussion of Libby's "pro-Israel position" in the article referring to source citations in Lewis Libby#Government public service and political career.  Libby held a key policy-making position in relation to foreign policy pertaining to US-Israel security affairs; advising the VP and the President about security affairs pertaining to the 2003 Iraq War in the Middle East (involving the security of Israel) was one of his recurring main responsibilities and the subject of meetings cited in this article.  The See also section reference to the Wikipedia article on JINSA pertains to that discussion.  JINSA is mentioned in the documented sources cited in this article section: Lewis Libby#Government public service and political career. If it were not for his positions discussed in that section (esp. as chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney [see link to JINSA in "what links to," who directed his work tasks and to whom he reported), Libby would probably not be notable enough for an article in Wikipedia: he held that position when indicted and that position is part and parcel of his involvement in the Plame affair and the CIA leak grand jury investigation leading to United States v. Libby and his conviction as a result of that case.  Such government service as a foreign policy-maker (inc. his involvment in the U.S.'s interest in maintaining the security of Israel) is one of the key aspects of his notability.  "See also" sections contain references to articles in Wikipedia enabling readers to understand the subject of an article better.  An item does not have to be cited directly in the text. JINSA pertains to issues discussed relating to Libby's role as a government "official" in cited articles in that section. Following the links in See also can be useful in understanding contexts for an article. --NYScholar 18:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Link to Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs

message: I find it odd that the info box on Libby includes charges and penalty. Is this the appropriate place for that information? A.S. Williams 18:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't believe that the criminal info box is entirely appropriate here. The reason being that Libby is notable for many other accomplishments. I would think that a criminal info box is warranted for someone who is primarily known as a criminal and is not notable for any other reason. Libby does not fit this description, and it is highly likely that if the conviction is not overturned then he will be pardoned anyway. A.S. Williams 03:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Info Box

message: It was added by someone and then reverted by someone else. The person who reverted the information said perjury was a specific crime and one he wasn't convicted of...but...wasn't he infact committed of it twice? Or is the article wrong? (Not that I am necessarily infavour of the catagory, but it piqued my curiosity) Narson 17:27, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The wikipedia article itself says he was.  I will seek an external source. BaldPete 17:29, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Liddy's indictment specifically mentioned perjury.  To my knowledge, he was convicted of all charges.  Reverting pending additonal documentation.  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801086.html BaldPete 17:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Adding link to US Code mentioned in indictment.  http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001623----000-.html BaldPete 17:49, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Liddy convicted on four of five counts. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17479718/ BaldPete 18:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The specific counts of which the jury convicted Libby are already quite clearly stated and documented with reliable and verifiable sources cited in the article sec. on Lewis Libby#Verdict; e.g., see the various news articles cited and also "The Counts" in the NY Times (which I've just added another citation to); external links contain the references as well (NYT, CNN, etc.).   Please use only full citations in this article.  Please do not add external links without identifying what they are in the prevailing citation format; doing so is not proper in this article.  It needs to follow WP:BLP requirements for full citations. --NYScholar 17:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Here is another link to the Libby indictment.   http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/documents/libby_indictment_28102005.pdf  He was convicted of Counts 1,2,4 and 5 and acquited of Count 3.  BaldPete 20:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Addendum: If one is unfamiliar with Libby as a subject in related articles: United States v. Libby; the Plame affair; CIA leak grand jury investigation; Valerie Plame; and Joseph C. Wilson, then one needs to read them carefully before trying to edit this article and to examine the Plame affair timeline as well.  I've worked on all of those articles at various times for varying periods over the past several months (about half a year).  We can't use this article as a forum for asking questions about matters already clearly detailed in those other articles.  This is not a forum about Libby.  The sources of information in notes citations and other references are the material for the articles, and if one is unfamiliar with the sources, then one has not got a full grasp of the subject.  Hit-or-miss editing (guess-work) in the "vacuum" of one article without knowing the contexts of the others is problematic.  Core policy of all of these articles is Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and all the other policies and guidelines linked in WP:BLP and WP:BLP#Well known public figures apply to editing this article (see tagged notices at top of page).  Thanks again. --NYScholar 22:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catagory: American Perjurors 

message: . Someone else can add it, I'm bored with the silly American affair Nil Einne [15:37, July 3, 2007 (UTC)]
:I added it.  Please use four tildes in signing so one knows when you posted the comment.  If you're "bored with the silly American affair," then why bother reading the article and posting about it?  I myself am tired and going offline.  It's is a lot of work to get the source citations right, and it is troubling to do all that work and then have it reverted or altered to something incorrect; so I'll be leaving to take a much-needed break for what I hope is an extended period of time.  Please maintain vigilance in editing this article and particularly in providing full citations to reliable and verifiable sources of information for it (not just embedded external links): see WP:BLP regarding that requiredment.  --NYScholar 22:43, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry one tilde was missed out. I happened to check out google news and saw a reference so I came here to see if the article already mentioned it (it didn't) and then considered adding it myself but abandoned that idea when I decided it would be too difficult to phrase it properly. I haven't really read the article much & I'm not that interested in the affair since it barely affects me except that I continue to find it bizarre what American's let their leaders get away with. I also find some of the stuff that goes in in this talk page somewhat amusing. Anyway I'll stop soapboxing. Well done, I've noticed from the talk page that you've been heavily involved Nil Einne 19:07, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I find it bizarre that you speak of things of which you have limited knowledge regarding.A.S. Williams 02:56, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bush won't rule out pardon 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Oppose this request.  See reasons in additional comments below. (It's been tried many times before and returns to "Lewis Libby" each time.) --NYScholar 20:27, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: He now belongs in 
Category:Disbarred American lawyers 
The article states that he was disbarred in Pennsylvania and the District of Columbia.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.16.185.42 (talk • contribs) 16:11, July 3, 2007 (UTC)
:I thought the category was already added some time ago. ??? --NYScholar 20:13, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I re-added the category. --NYScholar 20:36, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the unsigned template. Please sign comments w/ four tildes.  (The lack of signature led me to think that the user posting the "Discussion" section heading had posted it.  The Category heading must have intervened? --NYScholar 20:40, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: That's great, but there's no need to delete the discussion section from the requested move section. Make your own section for new topics. Also, be bold when it comes to adding someone to a new category. You don't need permission. -- R'son-W (speak to me/breathe) 20:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wish past experience w/ this article//on this talk page supported what you say above, R'son-W; unfortunately (in my view), there has been a lengthy arbitration going on relating to specific categories pertaining to ethnicity and/or religion--e.g., "Jewish American lawyers"--he's no longer a lawyer so that's moot--and "Jewish Americans"--and "Jewish American writers": all are incorporated in the "matter" in arbitration that another user ... filed against me in May.  The material is linked about it above; it's been very unpleasant from my own perspective.  Eaten up vast amounts of time (my time, that of others), and I just don't want to be embroiled in any of it anymore.  I just try to improve the development of the main text via sources in articles and typographical presentation and correctness of grammar, etc.  Too much time spent on this due to "breaking events"; going offline.  I explain just about every change I make in detail due to the endless complaining in the arbitration request and the inability to please everyone.  Just doing my best and hoping that others will follow WP:AGF as I am striving to do. --NYScholar 20:49, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Sorry: I didn't see a "requested move" section that that pertained to.  I'll try to add it back.  If I do it incorrectly or if you do it incorrectly, please repost it properly.  I've seen such sections before and they make it clear that they relate to a "move" proposal.  --NYScholar 20:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I got it already. It's okay, no harm, no foul. ^_^ -- R'son-W (speak to me/breathe) 20:21, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh, I just found it; it's in the right sec. now.  Very sorry. --NYScholar 20:22, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's all good, dude. -- R'son-W (speak to me/breathe) 20:25, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Category:Disbarred American lawyers

message: [fixed this heading: see user's comment below. --NYScholar 00:14, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For the time being, I've dropped "favorably." The source provided for the quote hardly mentions (or even implies) that the judge's opinion was "favorable." I agree it sounds like POV; if we do look for another descriptor, it should probably be sourced. It may be adequate to leave it as it is, now, though. I'll leave the  template, for now, in case anybody else wants to have a look, but feel free to remove it if you like. – Luna Santin (talk) 23:29, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: "favorably" is not in the source; it's a Wikipedia editor's insertion of his/her own POV and doesn't belong there (The actual quotation from the source a passage that I originally supplied and documented; see the eding history); obviously, "favorably" is a false word to use there; it isn't at all what the statement says.  Walton was saying the opposite; he was not favorably disposed toward that brief.  Just delete the inserted POV word entirely (as done).  There is a problem w/ the template added above.  Just need a normal heading, which I'm supplying above.  The edit protect template belongs on the article page, not the talk page.  Removed the template.  Doesn't really belong here at all.  "Edit protected" is something entirely different; it means that the main article is protecting from editing by anon IP addresses and newly-registered users and administrators add that template after consideration of either semi- or full-protection on those Wikipedia pages.  Please use "Help" to find those.  Thanks.  --NYScholar 00:14, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutral point of view?: "Favorably"

message: Please do not just toss external links into this article.  I've moved this passage recently added here: whoever added it can make a properly-formatted note citation and others can check its pertinence, verifiability, and accuracy, and whether putting it where it was is in keeping with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.  It is dubious, since there are many points of view expressed about this controversial matter, and just citing one pov from Fox News does not seem appropriate there; there is an article on United States v. Libby, where such issues are discussed as well in more detail.  Why insert it in this article in this manner?  Please do the necessary work and prior discussion on talk page before making such controversial insertions in the article:
*Fox News has noted that the sentence is typical, with the average prison term for convictions in obstruction of justice being 64 months (and most in the range of 13-31 months). http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Jul03/0,4670,CIALeakJudge,00.html 
[not my passage.  There needs to be a full citation: WP:Cite; check editing history for user who added it.  Thank you.] --NYScholar 00:06, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Full citations required in BLP

message: Are added at end of previous sections (or threaded with colons after the comments they pertain to in sections--see instructions in Talk page guidelines), and new sections are added at end of talk page.  Someone added a comment from July 3, 2007, at very top of page; that's backward: see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines: please read talkheader tagged notice at very top of page for instructions about posting on talk pages.  Thanks.  --NYScholar 00:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Adding New comments and sections for new comments on talk page

message: Please stop changing the "criminal" infobox; it was already correct and has been in this article for over 3 months; deleting key information from it does not have consensus.  See previous discussion of the matter, Before July 3. Archive talk page (from way back on March 26, 2007): Archive 4.   --NYScholar 00:21, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just want to remind people that notices on archived talk pages say that they are not to be edited/changed/altered.  One can comment on the criminal infobox (a special infobox format according to the archived user's explanation) in the section above.  Or here.  (Scroll up to see earlier section about this from July 3.) --NYScholar 00:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The condescension is not needed, I already read that discussion, you are not answering my point. The point of the article should not be what most wikipedians find him notable for, it should be what the general public finds him notable for. As stated by Tbeatty, my point is that a criminal infobox should be used for someone primarily famous or infamous for being a criminal, Ted Bundy or Danny Rolling are examples of where it is appropriate. Libby was Cheney's Chief of Staff, you might not think that the Chief of Staff of the Vice President of the United States is all that big a deal, but you will find yourself in the minority on that point.A.S. Williams 14:26, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Furthermore, do we have articles on every other person that is convicted of the things that Libby is? The answer is no, so therefore there needs to be a different infobox. The guidelines for criminal infobox needs to be clarified, because we could put criminal infoboxes on anyone with so much as a speeding ticket at the rate this is going.A.S. Williams 14:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

text: "Current" event tag: the current notoriety of Libby is clearly and indisputably his indictment, resignation, conviction, sentencing, and commutation of his sentence--the criminal infobox is pertinent to Libby's current notability.  His former positions in government are obsolete.  He would not have as extensive a Wikipedia article about him (two articles if one includes United States v. Libby if he were not a convicted felon who was once a high-ranking government official.  Wikipedia requires following Wikipedia:Neutral point of view(core policy in Wikipedia) and WP:BLP#Well known public figures are different in policy than other living persons.  One need not "pussy-foot" around this; the criminal infobox is factual, reliably- and verifiably-sourced by the content of this article, which focuses most on his involvement in the Plame affair and his loss of public reputation as a result of his conviction in United States v. Libby.  There is no policy in Wikipedia for exerting sympathy toward convicted criminals.  If and when the facts change and if and when Libby's conviction is overturned on appeal or if and when he is pardoned, then the infobox-criminal can be updated to reflect those new current events.  Thus far, it is accurate and current.  Other than my own earlier and withdrawn comment questioning it (and deleting its conviction-related info earlier without understanding that there was a "infobox-criminal" template in Wikipedia), there is little opposition to the box expressed throughout these talk pages.  Two people opposed to it do not constitute a consensus.  --NYScholar 21:51, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, his notability is because of his office.  We have articles on Vice President chiefs of staff.  We don't have articles just because someone is convicted of perjury which happens every day.  The criminal indictement/conviction/commutation is a current event but his public service is what makes him notable.  You are arguing that John Wayne Gacy should have the "artist" infobox because his most recent current event was selling a painting.  And one person replacing it consitutes even less consensus.   --Tbeatty 02:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: His notability is due to *both* his office and his crime.  Were he a White House official with no involvement in the Plame Affair, there would still be an article about him due to his position, but it would obviously be much shorter.  Had there been, say, a White House janitor indicted in this case that was later convicted of perjury, there would certainly be an article about him, though it would probably contain less info about his background.  Either way, you can't deny that his crime has contributed greatly to his notability, and therefore, the box should stay. (To put it another way, had OJ Simpson been convicted, wouldn't he have ended up with a criminal infobox, in spite of having been previously notable for other reasons?) --Haleym76 19:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: There is no clear-cut parallel with e.g, Winona Ryder (or Martha Stewart--[who should have an infobox-criminal that is complete, not white-washed publicity for her; look at the size of that photo, e.g.; it appears to make the Wikipedia article a promotional ad for her]) [proverbial "apples and oranges"]; Libby was one of the highest-ranking White House officials convicted of very "serious crimes" pertaining to a federal government scandal [see the article links in See also], resulting from a federal investigation pertaining to events of international significance (the 2003 War in Iraq) [and whose scope was extremely far-reaching, making it all the more notable an event in his life--contrary to Ryder or Stewart's crimes, which were more personal in nature and significance; confined to their own personal lives].  Libby's crimes are federalfelonies of high order (pertaining to a federal investigation of the leaking of a classified covert CIA agent's name--federal laws relating to which are "high crimes," such as treason), his indictment the result of a federal grand jury investigation, and his sentence (before commutation) involved federal imprisonment for multiple felonies (four counts).  The desire to minimize the infobox-criminal appears to be an attempt to minimize the significance of his crimes and his conviction of them; that does not appear to be in keeping with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:POV in relation to a biography of a well-known public figures/public official (WP:BLP#Well known public figures.  Neither Ryder nor Stewart[, who are celebrities working in the entertainment industry,  not government,] served in federal government high public office in the highest-ranking White House echelon of public officials.  The notability of Lewis Libby's crimes parallels the notability of his high-ranking public office at the time of his indictment for them.  --NYScholar 17:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

text: For examples of closer parallels with Libby, see the category at bottom of article: "American criminals", among whom is, e.g., G. Gordon Liddy.  (John Poindexter could use an infobox-criminal? He has no infobox at all.)  Click on other examples to see how government officials convicted of federal felonies are described in infoboxes.  There are parallels for this infobox-criminal for Libby.  It still seems reasonable and neutral to me.)  --NYScholar 17:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Criminal" infobox

message: I'm kinda confused about this - "The vice president's former aid has essentially been given a slap on the wrist for perjuring himself in front of a grand jury." - Bush only commuted his prison stay, the man can't get a job as a lawyer, AND he has to pay a 250k fine. Shouldn't this be omitted from the article, or at the very least, have a specific citation? As I said before, the man will basically have to use his schooling to get an entirely different job when he returns to private life. Sure won't be lawyering or lobbbying. 68.99.174.17 14:18, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: [Scroll up to very top of this talk page: "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Lewis Libby article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject." --NYScholar 21:02, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Opinion?

message: Scooter Libby was not the highest-ranking White House official convicted in a government scandal since National Security Adviser John Poindexter in the Iran-Contra affair in 1990. It was and still is Henry Ciseros U.S. Secretary of Housing and Urban Development from 1993 to 1997. He left public office, after pleading guilty to making false statements to federal officials.
68.215.120.252 17:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The claim is referenced with a reliable source so unless you can find a reference which contradicts it, we have to trust the source, not you. I don't know much about either or the US order of preference to say whether chief of staff to the VP is lower than U.S. Secretary of Housing and Urban Development. Are you sure it is? Regardless, perhaps the issue is that the Henry Cisneros affair is not really a goverment scandal since the scandal had nothing to do with his conduct as/while a goverment official but instead was to do with his conduct before he became an official which he then lied about during a background check to determine if he was fit to be an official. Nil Einne 19:00, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: HUD Secretary is in the line succession to the President.  We don't have to state that Libby was the highest ranking official so I would suggest just removing it.  I also think "government scandal" is the operative word as Webster Hubbel was also removed.   Dan Rostenkowski was also convicted in a government scandal during that time frame and it seems he would be pretty high up. --Tbeatty 19:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Please see the Wikified link to "federal-level government scandals" that is now in that sentence: federal-level government scandals; there is a Wikipedia article on them; this one--Plame affair (most-recent name of article for it; has had others that are redirected now)--is listed in "2000-" subsection there.  Updated it.  --NYScholar 20:05, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scooter not "the highest-ranking White House official convicted" 

message: Would it be possible to get a "Responses to the Presidential commutation" section added?  The last paragraph kindof does this, however, I don't think it goes far enough.  In particular, it alludes to people who are mad at Bush for not granting a full pardon.  If such people exist, I think they should be mentioned. TerraFrost 21:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a reasonable request (though I do not know how or what others will respond to it).  I myself do not have time to do that, but I have provided some material in the current section that others may want to develop.  Thank you for posting this here. Please understand that I do not want to carry on discussions like this or any other matters pertaining to the content of this or any other Wikipedia articles on my talk page.  Thank you.  Please respect that.  Thanks again. --NYScholar 21:12, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can indeed respect that. I also apologize if I sounded harsh on your talk page (seeing as how you added the NPA template to it, presumably because of me...) TerraFrost 21:23, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I just came back here w/ another thought relating to your proposal in this section: You (and/or others) might want to consider creating and developing a separate article on "Reponses to the Presidential commutation" [of Lewis Libby's sentence], because one might forsee it getting quite long and even contentious and perhaps overpowering this biographical article.  One needs also to keep in mind that such an article would be subject to WP:BLP#Well known public figures (both President Bush and Lewis Libby) [and also any other living persons mentioned in such an article in Wikipedia (or sub-section to this one) are subject to relevant parts of WP:BLP.]  Right now the amount of content in the sec. is not so much that it seems to need a sub-section.  If you or others create and develop an article on the (sub)topic, it could be cross-linked to this section in Lewis Libby via a template.  All for now.  Thanks again for understanding. --NYScholar 21:27, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: [Just adjusted the sec. slightly for better coherence before going offline. --NYScholar 22:56, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

text: As the guy adding the "latest additions", I would second the thought of moving the content of the section elsewhere, lest it overwhelm the bio.  I would suggest United States v. Libby but, as this is the first time I've edited this article, I figure the regular editors have a better idea of the structure that is best suited to the articles. - BanyanTree 01:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for response.  You and others might be interested in a previous suggestion (scroll up) in Talk:Lewis Libby#Shortening this article on Libby: Proposed content. Thanks again.  --NYScholar 06:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Responses to the Presidential commutation 

message: The citations format in the article has been consistent for some time; periodically, people are altering correctly-formatted notes citations to incorrect formats that are inconsistent with the rest of the article.  Please do not do that.  BanyanTree et al.: if I lost some well-sourced and pertinent significant changes that you introduced (other than those faulty citations format changes), please re-enter them; there were too many faulty changes to already-correct citations to have to re-enter each one of them.  I'm sorry for any inconvenience.  I wish that those new to editing this article would be more careful and not introduce inconsistencies into it.  It takes a lot of time to format the citations properly.  The templates do not work right with punctuation and order of items in the prevailing notes format: here it is first name, last name, title of an article in quotation marks, title of publication in italics, date of publication, date accessed [with the article title as an ext. link when possible and the publication and dates as Wikipedia links].  Thanks.  See WP:CITE and WP:Attribution with related links there.  --NYScholar 05:51, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations format

message: Common Wikipedia editing style is to have red links for notable potential subjects for which it would be helpful to have other Wikipedia editors create new articles.  Then they would become populated.  Dates of publication and access are Wikipedia links; important dates of publication and events are Wikipedia links.  Please don't keep deleting them.  It takes a lot of time to format them properly as they are.  -NYScholar 05:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Currently unpopulated Wikipedia links

message: The citation regarding Libby's status in PA does not include the information that whoever is using it claims it does.  It lists Libby as "inactive" which is a status that an individual attorney can choose, and not indicative of a form of punishment.  Also, the discipline section in his entry is blank.  I hope that whoever readded this will take the time to read the cite, rather than rely on it blindly.  Cheers, JCO312 16:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not remove "the fact tag" there; perhaps someone else did. [Not sure about this now; perhaps I did some time ago.]  There is no way that Libby is able to practice law in Pennsylvania.  It's a moot point.  See the earlier comment.  I'm moving this to the article's talk page where it belongs. --NYScholar 20:21, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is simply incorrect.  Those attorneys who are inactive have not had their licenses suspended.  If you can point to a specific line about that on the disciplinary website, I'll obviously retract my opposition to this.  The fact remains that there is nothing listed in the "discipline" section of his entry.  The process of suspending an attorney is not as automatic as you seem to think.  There would have to be some sort of notification sent from DC to Pennsylvania, which would result in an order of the PA Supreme Court suspending/disbarring the attorney.  Nothing of the sort has happened, at least not according to the website.  Also, a search of the PA Disciplinary committees website for recent discipline also shows nothing relating to Libby. JCO312 20:57, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From the PA Disciplinary Board If your status has changed so that (1) you have retired or (2) you are not engaged in practice in Pennsylvania and you desire to assume inactive or retired status, check off box 16 or 17 under Section D, sign and return the registration form without the fee. Thus, a person may choose to enter inactive status, it does not mean they have been suspended. (http://www.padisciplinaryboard.org/faqs/attorneys.php#attorney).  JCO312 21:06, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I think that it is now factually correct (if it wasn't before, and we don't really know that).  I believe that this matter was discussed by others in previously-archived talk pages of Talk:Lewis Libby.  If it was I who did remove the "fact" tag (some time ago--my memory is now vague about it, but it would be in the editing history) it was in good faith; I did think from what I had read on the PA disciplinary board main site that it was the case.  I do not think that Libby is eligible for having his license reinstated in Pennsylvania at this time.  If President Bush pardons him or if his conviction is overturned on appeal, perhaps he would re-apply and be granted a law license in Washington, D.C. (where his disbarment is subject to reinstatement if conditions are deemed by the DC Bar to warrant that--see the note about that) or in PA or some other state, but he would have to apply.  According to what President Bush has said, if it is correct (and that is debatable perhaps), his reputation in the legal profession is "forever damaged"; whether it can be restored is another matter and pure conjecture and speculation.  (My own perspective: On the one hand, it is hard for someone convicted of perjury, making false statements, and obstruction of justice to be considered of [unimpeachable] legal reputation, but, on the other hand, people who have made mistakes that they regret and express contrition for are given second chances in life.  [Some point out that Libby has not expressed such regret and contrition, at least not publicly.  Perhaps because the verdict in his case still might be appealed; he pled innocent, not guilty, and his lawyer Wells persists in declarations about his innocence--as sourced in this article.)  The blogosphere--which is uncitable here except for the court-approved trial sites--is full of such conjecture and speculation, espec. since July 2, 2007.  We can't cite those comments in an article about a living person, even one who is a well-known public figure, as they are neither reliable nor verifiable sources in Wikipedia.  Thanks for your vigilance; I hope that the sources now document what the statement says. --NYScholar 21:35, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

text: BTW: Libby's listing in the PA disciplinary board search facility has not changed since before his conviction; it may not be up to date; as he was already inactive, they simply may have no cause to do anything to it: from the same webpage previously linked by the other user: "How do I obtain a statement regarding disciplinary complaints filed and/or discipline imposed? ... If you need a statement regarding your fitness to practice, your written request must state that you authorize the Disciplinary Board of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania to search and release any information (public or private) found in your disciplinary file."  We don't know if Libby has a "disciplinary file" or not because the search results may not have been updated after he was first listed as "inactive" (pre-March 2007). [Since he was probably originally listed as "inactive" for non-payment of license renewal fees--see earlier archived discussions about that--it is unlikely that he would have contacted the PA Bar disciplinary board after his indictment asking for any such "statement regarding [his] fitness to practice."  These issues seem rather moot to me, given his current situation as a convicted felon.] --NYScholar 21:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is also a "recent discipline" and "discipline reporter" available on the disciplinary committee website; neither list Libby.  Any suspension or disbarment of an attorney has to be done by the Supreme Court (on the advice of the disciplinary committee), and there is no record of anything having been done.  It may be, as you said, that since he was already inactive that no action is necessary.  Incidentally, sorry for posting on your talk page regarding this.  I should have read your preferences before posting (I saw that you had removed the fact tag in the edit history and wanted to give you the heads up).  I agree that it is factually accurate as written.  Cheers, JCO312 00:30, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great! Thanks for your vigilance and help.  --NYScholar 00:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Suspended" in Pennsylvania

message: [See earlier section in this talk page for earlier discussion: #Scooter not "the highest-ranking White House official convicted[sic]. --NYScholar 02:08, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While you claim that people are trying to minimize the seriousness of the charges and so on, you yourself appear to be in a hyperbolic fever about maximizing them. You simply cannot make judgments about what is or is not more serious with regards to government scandals as defined by the requirements that they are 1. a scandal and 2. they are in the government. What is or is not allegedly more serious is completely irrelevant to the fact of the matter. Whether you agree with it or not, Cisneros was a federal official who was guilty of a crime and therefore is the most recent federal official guilty of impropriety. You seem determined to nail Libby to a cross as being the last one since Iran Contra when this is simply not a fact. Making the prettiest citations with the most information included in them is merely a smokescreen for what seems to be a political cause on your part. The facts are very simple and comparing Libby to other people is something that does a disservice to the readers of wikipedia looking for information. It is not relevant that he is the first person convicted since fill-in-the-blank. It is as relevant as what his favorite slurpee flavor is. The article should include basic facts, there is no need to embellish it with all these footnotes. Furthermore, your insistence that he be tagged as an assistant to the president is also curious as no major media refer to him that way. He is almost universally referred to as the former chief-of-staff to the vice president and the reason for this is because there is only one CoS for the VP. There are many many assistants to the president and mentioning that Libby was one is akin to mentioning that Libby has two eyeballs. My ultimate point is that you seem inordinately determined to paint Libby in the most negative light that you can. A.S. Williams 19:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See specifically: Henry Cisneros#Independent Counsel's investigation--Cisneros lied about personal matters involving money and an affair with a woman; that investigation did not involve a federal-level political scandal as the CIA leak grand jury investigation does (it is not yet formally closed), and it did not implicate higher-level elected officials like the Vice President or Karl Rove (President's advisor).  Cisneros was not a "White House official"; he did not work in the White House; he was a cabinet officer, a member of the administration, but not a "White House official" as Libby was. It is inappropriate to add Cisneros here when the two sources refer to more relevant comparisons to the Libby indictment and conviction?  ("Apples and oranges" again.  Cisneros left office without a jury trial; he pled guilty to a misdemeanor charge through a plea agreement and was eventually pardoned (see controversy discussed at above link).  Libby pled not guilty to an indictement involving five felony counts, was presumed innocent, and was convicted by a jury of four of those five counts in a federal trial, sentenced to prison, etc., and, if the prison term part of his sentence had not just been commuted by Pres. Bush, he would be serving that 30-month sentence.  Whether or not his conviction will be overturned on appeal or, if not, whether or not he will be pardoned in the future is not yet known yet.   The notability of his indictment and conviction is cited in the fully-cited sourced quotations.  --NYScholar 01:56, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of reliably- and verifiably-sourced material and quotation marks from sources

message: According to CNN, "Libby is the first sitting White House official to be indicted in 130 years,""Judge Orders Libby Jailed during Appeal", CNN News, June 14 2007, accessed June 14 2007.  (During the presidential administration of Ulysses S. Grant, United States Secretary of War William Belknap was indicted by the Senate of the United States and impeached for bribery.  The Senate vote to convict him fell short of a majority, in part, senators reported, because he resigned prior to his impeachment and it was not clear whether the vote to convict was moot.)See also: David Ensor ("Voiceover" in video clip), et al.,CNN, "Rush Transcript", CNN Saturday Morning News, broadcast 29 October, 2005, 11:00 a.m. ET, accessed 6 July, 2007. and, according to the Associated Press, "the highest-ranking White House official convicted in a [federal-level] government scandal since National Security Adviser [sic] John Poindexter in the Iran-Contra affair" in 1990.Michael J. Sniffen and Matt Apuzzo (Associated Press),"Libby Found Guilty in CIA Leak Trial: Ex-Cheney Aide Libby Found Guilty of Obstruction, Perjury, Lying to the FBI in CIA Leak Case", ABC News, March 6 2007, accessed June 10 2007.
:Query: I've added parenthetical explanation of the 1875/1876 "White House official" to which CNN reporters appear to be referring; but the information as they describe it, if it is William Belknap is not accurate; if it is he, he was impeached but not convicted by the Senate (the vote fell short), and he resigned after his impeachment.  See his biography for more information and sources.  If the reference is to some other "White House official" "130 years" prior to 2005 (or so) then the person to whom the reference is made generally (repeatedly in the CNN transcript and article cited) needs identification (in brackets or a parenthetical explanation).  Perhaps others want to work out these problems.  I've removed the quotations (both of them) because they are controversial and, at least the first one, appears to be possibly incorrect.  With such problems, I don't see how it can remain (uncorrected) in the article.  These statements are pervasive in articles about Libby's indictment and conviction.  --NYScholar 02:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Scroll up: the passage is this one (with proper quotation marks for the verbatim quotation from the source):According to CNN, "Libby is the first sitting White House official to be indicted in 130 years.""Judge Orders Libby Jailed during Appeal", CNN News, 14 June, 2007, accessed 8 July, 2007. (During the presidential administration of Ulysses S. Grant, United States Secretary of War William Belknap was indicted by the Senate of the United States and impeached for bribery. The Senate vote to convict him fell short of a majority, in part, senators reported, because he resigned prior to his impeachment and it was not clear whether the vote to convict was moot.)See also: David Ensor ("Voiceover" in video clip), et al.,CNN, "Rush Transcript", CNN Saturday Morning News, broadcast 29 October, 2005, 11:00 a.m. ET, accessed 6 July, 2007.See also: Associated Press, "A History of Indictments involving White House Staff", USA Today, 26 October, 2007, accessed 6 July, 2007. [See notes in section show preview or at end] --NYScholar 22:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Moving the contested passage to talk page for further discussion, verification

message: Inserted by another editor; moved here due to its apparent inaccuracies, lack of proper "full citation" or "full citations"; this is not a quotation from the source; and it's not verified; I leave it to others to work on whether or not this material belongs in the introduction to Lewis Libby:
Libby is the highest-ranking White House official convicted in a federal-level government scandal since Housing and Urban Development Secretary Henry Cisneros in 1999. 
That passage needs to be checked and verified and the citation needs to be a full citation.  I leave it to others to do that work.  I don't know whether or not it is accurate.  It depends on whether a "White House official" refers to a cabinet member or someone else (like Libby, not a cabinet member).  Also, I've already pointed out the discrepancies between facts of Cisneros' situation and Libby's; Cisneros was not "convicted"; after indictment by an "Independent Counsel," he entered a plea bargain of guilty to one misdemeanor (not a plea of not guilty to five felony counts), and he was not convicted of anything (e.g., in a trial by jury, as in Libby's case). Cisneros resigned and was after that pardoned by President Clinton.  The biography gives details; perhaps sources that can be used for verification.  The "government scandal" was not of the order of the Plame affair etc. (as already explained), and so on. --NYScholar 03:05, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The line says nothing about "Independent Counsel" and "convicted" is merely parsing words, I suppose it could be changed to "guilty" to satisfy your contention. A cabinet member is a White House official as he/she is one of the President's advisors. Cisneros is more a White House official than Libby. The point of referring to the Iran Contra scandal is not neutral and quite frankly doesn't even need to be in the article to begin with. But if we are determined to point out the last time someone connected to the White House was guilty of a crime, then this is the best way to do it. As far as a full citation, please clarify what you mean by that. The link goes to an article in USA Today which is a legitimate news source. The arbitrary nature of determining what was a bigger scandal has nothing to do with the point of the line.A.S. Williams 04:57, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Given the apparently determined motivations to include the information, I will agree with this compromise. I still think it really ought to be removed completely.A.S. Williams 05:01, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Other proposed passage

message: Libby was never an assistant to the president.  The sources cited state only that he was cheney's chief of staff and national security advisor.  They never state that he was a direct assistant to the president. Perpetualization 21:44, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From the USDOJ indictment: Beginning on or about January 20, 2001, and continuing through the date of this indictment, defendant I. LEWIS LIBBY, also known as "SCOOTER LIBBY," was employed as Assistant to the President of the United States, Chief of Staff to the Vice President of the United States, and Assistant to the Vice President for National Security Affairs. In the course of his work, LIBBY had frequent access to classified information and frequently spoke with officials of the U.S. intelligence community, as well as other government officials, regarding sensitive national security matters.
Please stop deleting reliable and verifiable sources from this article and introducing errors.  Due to this apparently-ongoing problem, I've tagged this article with a "cleanup" notice; earlier accurate category/categories and reference citations need to be restored so that the other coded refs. to them work correctly.  Please read the talk page of the article (and archived talk pages) and please do not make such substantive and controversial changes to this article without first doing so and posting your concerns about a passage on this talk page. See tagged notice about controversial articles in Wikipedia and Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles.  Thank you.  --NYScholar 23:33, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I restored some of the missing citations.  I don't know if I caught all of them as there have been so many deletions of sources since July 2 from this article. Leaving the cleanup template in place in case I and others have missed fixing these various citation errors.  Thanks to those correcting actual errors for their vigilance.  --NYScholar 01:08, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assistant to the President? 

message: Moved to talk page due to lack of proper source: [referring to Libby's education at Phillips Academy:]
  There he was the head of the Philomathean Society, "the oldest secondary school debate program in the [United States]."Biography of Staff: Elisabth E. Tully, Dir. of the Oliver Wendell Holmes Library and faculty advisor to the Philomathean Society, Phillips Academy, n.d., accessed July 12, 2007.
User who added the information (since revised for coh.) is responsible for providing a full citation to document it; the source supplied needs to be both reliable and verifiable; see WP:BLP and WP:CITE.  Thanks.  --NYScholar 20:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Debate soc. head insertion/needs reliable, verifiable source

message: More than half the summary and the entire Trial, conviction, and sentencing section is about the court case United States v. Libby.  There is already an article about this, and the Lewis Libby article ought to focus more on Libby and less on his court case. Perpetualization 02:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just noticed this: Please see earlier sections of this current talk page; e.g., #Shortening this article on Libby: Proposed content; no responses there or where referred to later in talk page. --NYScholar 23:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

text: See related comments in Valerie Plame; rationale for the content of such articles is the notability of the person being so closely related to a highly-notable series of events in American political government scandal relating to them.  Please go to Plame affair, e.g., and see the righthand list of notable people involved in it.  None is perhaps more directly inovlved than the Wilsons and Libby at this point.  There are differences in the ways that these articles are developed; they are not repetition per say; in many cases the material in U.S. v. Libby originated in this article on Libby and was then focused on there.  Some sections are more developed and the transitions differ (for coherence).  There is not a great deal more to focus on about Libby other than what has already been focused on.  His accomplishments in government work, for example, are not as well documented as his notoriety due to his involvement in the Plame affair.  Part of that was due to his so-called "low profile" in government; he was very secretive and his work did not find much public scrutiny.  Some might wonder why and want to investigate that, but that runs counter to WP:NOR.  One needs to find reliable and verifiable sources to document Libby's notability.  So far, this article does that.  Deletion of reliable and verifiable sources of notable content and such notable content is contrary to the core policy in Wikipedia: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.  Imagine that you never heard of Lewis Libby; re-read the article with that reader's perspective in mind.   --NYScholar 23:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Repeat of United States v. Libby 

message: I believe that only United States v. Libby is a current event, not Lewis Libby himself.  Unless anybody objects, i am going to remove the current event tag. Perpetualization 02:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: E.g., see the listing of Scooter Libby in that portal's current events for July 2, 2007.  Thus, the tag still on this article seems quite justified, at least while the matters pertaining to Libby are still currently being reported; also, e.g., the House Judiciary Committee hearing just occurred on July 11, 2007, and it has been in the news all week.  [That hearing involved Lewis Libby the person as well as the events leading to the presidential commutation of his prison sentence.]  --NYScholar 17:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current Event? 

message: The current talk page is approx. 200K long; it seems wise to archive it (in perhaps more than one portion, chronologically; perhaps splitting it up into quarters (about 40-60K each) to make access to it more manageable.  Please scroll up to top of the current page for discussions pertaining to archiving.  Thanks.  --NYScholar 22:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The section w/ disc. is #Controversial topic (which was refactored by another editor some time ago; see refs. there pertaining to archiving a talk page when it gets too long): Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#When pages get too long. --NYScholar 23:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Archived about half of the material [96K] in archive page 7.  Added notes re: that in appropriate spots above. --NYScholar 01:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Time to archive again soon?

message: have removed it as i don't think it directly relevant to Libby, and is taking up a fair amount of space in an already long article, especially given the second shorter mention in Comment on the verdict by prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald 
i can live with a short mention if it is the case that this article states allegations that Libby was specifically the source that Armitage owned up to being (i.e. the "initial and primary source" for Novak's article). 
i am planning to remove some more content from this article that do not directly address Libby, under the "This is the Libby article, not the Plame affair or CIA leak grand jury investigation article" argument. but will respect any "hang on, i have/will have something to say about that soon" request from contributors. 
some such content i've identified:
*paragraph beginning "During his media appearance outside the courtroom after the verdict in the Libby case, Fitzgerald fielded questions from the press about others involved in the Plame affair and in the CIA leak grand jury investigation, such as Armitage and Cheney..."
*Collins offers a day-by-day account of his experience as Juror #9 at the Libby trial in an "Exclusive" at The Huffington Post.
*the extensive quote from Judge Walton addressed to the amici curiae beginning "Walton granted the scholars permission to file their brief, and wrote of them.."
*also inclined to chop or remove the section on Press coverage of the trial
also planning the axe on some non-notable or current event-ish statements
*"Libby did not speak to reporters" (after verdict)
* "some of them [Newspaper calls for pardon] are posted online by the Libby Legal Defense Trust."
Doldrums 07:39, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  subsection on Armitage 

message: There are full citations embedded in the content of this article that editors delete.  Any deletions need to be both warranted and those making the deletions need to keep intact full citations being referred back to in ref. citation abbreviations ("ref name = [x]/"].  In the past I have spent hours restoring missing citations caused by others' deletions.  Editors making deletions are responsible for making sure that the citations continue to work fully throughout the article after their deletions and for maintaining the integrity of the article's source citations. --NYScholar 18:09, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Opposition to above section comments

message: After working on the passage for a while longer, I recognize that a later transitional comment in the section on Fitzgerald's comments on the verdict seems to suffice, and I don't see any citation deletion repercussions:  here is the passage (revised earlier) which the other editor wanted to delete: I've deleted it and moved it here in case further discussion is needed:
===No federal charges for sources of leak===
For over three years media speculation focused on Karl Rove, Libby, and others as sources of the leaking to columnist Robert Novak of the then-classified, covert identity of now-former CIA officer Valerie E. Wilson.David Corn, "Will Scooter Libby Graymail the CIA?" The Nation, 6 February, 2006, accessed 18 April, 2007.
But on August 30, 2006, the New York Times and other sources reported that Deputy Secretary of State Department Richard Armitage was the "initial and primary source" for Novak's article of July 14, 2003, which identified the wife of Bush administration critic former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson (the author of a New York Times op-ed critical of the Bush administration's Iraq War rationale, entitled "What I Didn't Find in Africa"Joseph C. Wilson IV, "What I Didn't Find in Africa", The New York Times, July 6, 2003, accessed July 9, 2007; rpt. as "What I Didn't Find in Africa", Common Dreams NewsCenter, July 6, 2002, accessed July 9, 2007.) as an "agency operative" named "Valerie Plame."Neil A. Lewis, "First Source of C.I.A. Leak Admits Role, Lawyer Says", New York Times,  30 August, 2006, National Desk, Late Ed–Final: A12, col. 5 (TimesSelect subscription required).John King and Brian Todd, "Sources: State Department Official Source of Plame Leak", CNN 30 August, 2006.
While Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald has not charged Armitage, Rove, Libby, Cheney, or anyone else with breaking any federal laws for leaking Mrs. Wilson's CIA identity, he did charge Libby with five other counts relating to the investigation of the leak."United States of America vs. I. Lewis Libby, also known as "Scooter Libby", United States Department of Justice, 28 October, 2005, accessed 5 July, 2007.
[adding signature; forgot to do so earlier.] --NYScholar 01:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Update re: (previously) "Armitage" subsection

message: For over three years media speculation focused on Karl Rove, Libby, and others as sources of the leaking to columnist Robert Novak of the then-classified, covert identity of now-former CIA officer Valerie E. Wilson.David Corn, "Will Scooter Libby Graymail the CIA?" The Nation, 6 February, 2006, accessed 18 April, 2007.
But on August 30, 2006, the New York Times and other sources reported that Deputy Secretary of State Department Richard Armitage was the "initial and primary source" for Novak's article of July 14, 2003, which identified the wife of Bush administration critic former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson (the author of a New York Times op-ed critical of the Bush administration's Iraq War rationale, entitled "What I Didn't Find in Africa"Joseph C. Wilson IV, "What I Didn't Find in Africa", The New York Times, July 6, 2003, accessed July 9, 2007; rpt. as "What I Didn't Find in Africa", Common Dreams NewsCenter, July 6, 2002, accessed July 9, 2007.) as an "agency operative" named "Valerie Plame."Neil A. Lewis, "First Source of C.I.A. Leak Admits Role, Lawyer Says", New York Times,  30 August, 2006, National Desk, Late Ed–Final: A12, col. 5 (TimesSelect subscription required).John King and Brian Todd, "Sources: State Department Official Source of Plame Leak", CNN 30 August, 2006.
While Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald has not charged Armitage, Rove, Libby, Cheney, or anyone else with breaking any federal laws for leaking Mrs. Wilson's CIA identity, he did charge Libby with five other counts relating to the investigation of the leak."United States of America vs. I. Lewis Libby, also known as "Scooter Libby", United States Department of Justice, 28 October, 2005, accessed 5 July, 2007.</blockquote></blockquote>
[adding signature; forgot to do so earlier.] --NYScholar 01:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: No federal charges for sources of leak

message: The recent ARBCOM ruling (see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/NYScholar#Applicability of BLP) in no way modified the criteria required by WP:BLP#Categories. Until and unless reliable secondary sources are provided that meet both criteria, religious categories may not be applied to this article. I am particularly concerned by a lack of sources showing public self-identification. The relevance issue is more debatable. - Crockspot 16:52, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The arbitration case is resolved and "closed" as of July 13, 2007.  Please see the updated current case link at Requests for arbitration/NYScholar (Closed) and scroll down or select sections from table of contents for the Arbitration Committee's Final decision.  (Please consult that page for the full "final decision" of the arbitration committee as it pertains to Lewis Libby, its decision acknowledges that Lewis Libby is a "prominent public figure": see WP:BLP#Well known public figures.  --NYScholar 01:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What part of public self identification are you missing? - Crockspot 02:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The act of going to a house of worship, and having a third party report that he saw him there does not constitute public self identification. The category criteria makes no exception for public persons. The arbcom ruling does not bar the the third party reporting of his jewishness in the content, based upon his being a public person, but the category criteria clearly still bars the use of the category. I will stand firm on this point. - Crockspot 03:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

text: There is no justification for continued misinterpretation of WP:BLP#Categories (I quoted the two criteria above again).  Kampeas reports the evidence of Libby's membership in Temple Rodef Shalom as published in its membership directory.  (Temple Rodef Shalom is a religious membership organization, not only a "house of worship"; it even has a "biznet" in which it identifies its members via its online website for networking purposes.)  WP:BLP#Well known public figures states that one can cite evidence of public records in reliable and verifiable sources (as well as the public records themselves).  The citation to Kampeas is a citation documenting the public record of the membership guide in which Lewis Libby identifies himself with the "belief" of Judaism by virtue of being a member in that religious organization.  The arbcom ruling specifically finds that Libby is a "prominent public figure," which makes it crystal clear that WP:BLP#Well known public figures applies to this article about him and that "Reliably- and verifiably-sourced significant information" pertaining to "disclosure of Lewis Libby's ethnicity and religious affiliation" is warranted in this article about him. The "final decision" also finds that these sources that I have been citing by Kampeas for several months and which the above editor and others have repeatedly deleted are "reliable" and "verifiable." --NYScholar 04:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: [To Crockspot:] There is no point in "stand[ing] firm on this point" if your stance has no explicit support in the arbitration committee's "final decision," and for you even to try to revert categories on this "matter" (the "locus" of the dispute as they judged it)--even by mistake--is very risky, as it could lead to your and others' being blocked.  I would suggest just leaving the category adding to other, more neutral editors who were not "interested parties" in the arbitration case.  More neutral editors can read the same cited sources and decide whether or not the category is warranted.  I have not added the category; I just corrected a typographical error in a date (as I think you realized later). --NYScholar 04:29, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I am citing reliable and verifiable sources so that other more neutral editors can read them and see what they say.  "Interested parties" in the arbitration dispute are not "neutral" editors in this "matter" by virtue of their "involvement" in that dispute.  I am providing sources as asked.  As I interpret the sources (as I read them), they document the fact of Lewis Libby's public self-identification with the "belief" of Judaism, and they also document the "relevance" of the fact that Libby "is Jewish."  I am not engaging in so-called "original research"; I am providing documented reliable and verifiable sources that are acceptable in Wikipedia. I have no interest in adding or deleting the category "American Jews"; however, I do think that the category is warranted by the sources currently in this article on Lewis Libby.  --NYScholar 04:29, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: [Note: In the above comment, I've Wikified the phrase "American Jews" for people's reference; the Wikified link is a link to the Wikipedia article on "American Jews"; for the category itself, one needs to click on its category link in an article containing it (such as that one). --NYScholar 04:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: For biographies of living persons, see, e.g., Matt Lauer.  I have no idea whether or not Matt Lauer has publicly identified himself with the "belief" of Judaism or what its relevance is to his biography; I just found him listed in the index of the category because I was looking at "L" after Libby was listed there by the administrator, as noted earlier.  [The Wikipedia article text states only that Matt Lauer's father is Jewish. [The source was miscoded; I just fixed it so that it posts and read it, finding a quotation that makes the category dubious; I added a query in Talk:Matt Lauer.] How would these Wikipedia editors know whether or not Lauer is "self-identified" with the "belief" of Judaism?  [The quotation does not make that clear at all.]  Otherwise, the textual ref. to his father's being Jewish [citing the source that didn't show up earlier] seems the basis used in that article for including the category; in my view, a much weaker rationale than we have with Libby.  To see whether or not WP:BLP#Categories is being followed consistently in Wikipedia, one needs to check articles in such categories that pertain to "religious affiliation" and "sexual preference."  In the past, just in passing, I have found wide discrepancies in the ways such categories are being applied by various editors throughout Wikipedia. [Updated.] --NYScholar 04:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  According to this source, Lauer is not Jewish. I'll fix that one. - Crockspot 04:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of categories 

message: For previous discussion, please scroll up and see the archived talk pages.
:The arbitration case is resolved and "closed" as of July 13, 2007.  Please see the updated current case link at Requests for arbitration/NYScholar (Closed) and scroll down or select sections from table of contents for the Arbitration Committee's Final decision.  (Please consult that page for the full "final decision" of the arbitration committee as it pertains to Lewis Libby, its decision acknowledges that Lewis Libby is a "prominent public figure": see WP:BLP#Well known public figures.  --NYScholar 01:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What part of public self identification are you missing? - Crockspot 02:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The act of going to a house of worship, and having a third party report that he saw him there does not constitute public self identification. The category criteria makes no exception for public persons. The arbcom ruling does not bar the the third party reporting of his jewishness in the content, based upon his being a public person, but the category criteria clearly still bars the use of the category. I will stand firm on this point. - Crockspot 03:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

text: There is no justification for continued misinterpretation of WP:BLP#Categories (I quoted the two criteria above again).  Kampeas reports the evidence of Libby's membership in Temple Rodef Shalom as published in its membership directory.  (Temple Rodef Shalom is a religious membership organization, not only a "house of worship"; it even has a "biznet" in which it identifies its members via its online website for networking purposes.)  WP:BLP#Well known public figures states that one can cite evidence of public records in reliable and verifiable sources (as well as the public records themselves).  The citation to Kampeas is a citation documenting the public record of the membership guide in which Lewis Libby identifies himself with the "belief" of Judaism by virtue of being a member in that religious organization.  The arbcom ruling specifically finds that Libby is a "prominent public figure," which makes it crystal clear that WP:BLP#Well known public figures applies to this article about him and that "Reliably- and verifiably-sourced significant information" pertaining to "disclosure of Lewis Libby's ethnicity and religious affiliation" is warranted in this article about him. The "final decision" also finds that these sources that I have been citing by Kampeas for several months and which the above editor and others have repeatedly deleted are "reliable" and "verifiable." --NYScholar 04:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: [To Crockspot:] There is no point in "stand[ing] firm on this point" if your stance has no explicit support in the arbitration committee's "final decision," and for you even to try to revert categories on this "matter" (the "locus" of the dispute as they judged it)--even by mistake--is very risky, as it could lead to your and others' being blocked.  I would suggest just leaving the category adding to other, more neutral editors who were not "interested parties" in the arbitration case.  More neutral editors can read the same cited sources and decide whether or not the category is warranted.  I have not added the category; I just corrected a typographical error in a date (as I think you realized later). --NYScholar 04:29, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I am citing reliable and verifiable sources so that other more neutral editors can read them and see what they say.  "Interested parties" in the arbitration dispute are not "neutral" editors in this "matter" by virtue of their "involvement" in that dispute.  I am providing sources as asked.  As I interpret the sources (as I read them), they document the fact of Lewis Libby's public self-identification with the "belief" of Judaism, and they also document the "relevance" of the fact that Libby "is Jewish."  I am not engaging in so-called "original research"; I am providing documented reliable and verifiable sources that are acceptable in Wikipedia. I have no interest in adding or deleting the category "American Jews"; however, I do think that the category is warranted by the sources currently in this article on Lewis Libby.  --NYScholar 04:29, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: [Note: In the above comment, I've Wikified the phrase "American Jews" for people's reference; the Wikified link is a link to the Wikipedia article on "American Jews"; for the category itself, one needs to click on its category link in an article containing it (such as that one). --NYScholar 04:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: For biographies of living persons, see, e.g., Matt Lauer.  I have no idea whether or not Matt Lauer has publicly identified himself with the "belief" of Judaism or what its relevance is to his biography; I just found him listed in the index of the category because I was looking at "L" after Libby was listed there by the administrator, as noted earlier.  [The Wikipedia article text states only that Matt Lauer's father is Jewish. [The source was miscoded; I just fixed it so that it posts and read it, finding a quotation that makes the category dubious; I added a query in Talk:Matt Lauer.] How would these Wikipedia editors know whether or not Lauer is "self-identified" with the "belief" of Judaism?  [The quotation does not make that clear at all.]  Otherwise, the textual ref. to his father's being Jewish [citing the source that didn't show up earlier] seems the basis used in that article for including the category; in my view, a much weaker rationale than we have with Libby.  To see whether or not WP:BLP#Categories is being followed consistently in Wikipedia, one needs to check articles in such categories that pertain to "religious affiliation" and "sexual preference."  In the past, just in passing, I have found wide discrepancies in the ways such categories are being applied by various editors throughout Wikipedia. [Updated.] --NYScholar 04:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  According to this source, Lauer is not Jewish. I'll fix that one. - Crockspot 04:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Scroll up: [[#American Jew?]]

message: Why was this such a big deal? Can we move on now? Thanks, --Tom 13:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Added category American Jews