Talk:Hitler and the Church/Archive 1

message: ::I bring from my user page a source I consider apposite to all efforts I and other editors have made or will make to complete the Wikipedia History of this Article's subject. The source is Franz von Papen pleading for his innocence , and his Defence pleading for him. It relates to the accusation made against myself EffK
::From The Yale Avalon Project( ) we are brought {Fair use/Educational/Public} such as this Franz von Papen disculpation and inculpation:
DR. KUBUSCHOK(The Defence for Papen): The Prosecution charges that, as a prominent lay member of the Catholic Church, you were particularly able to consolidate the Nazi regime in the field of the churches. We must therefore discuss your attitude regarding the Church Will you give an account of the situation of the German Church at that time? 
VON PAPEN: This charge, Gentlemen of the Tribunal, is for me the most serious of the entire Indictment-the charge that I, as a Catholic, contributed to this conspiracy against world peace. May I be permitted, therefore, to discuss my attitude in the Church question quite briefly.
:::{disculpations follow)
 
DR.Kubuschok.[Turning to the defendant.] What were the events leading up to the Concordat? 
VON PAPEN: I reiterate that I wanted to secure a Christian basis for the Reich at all costs. For that reason, I suggested to Hitler in April 1933 that the rights of the Church should be firmly laid down in a Concordat, and that this Concordat should be followed by an agreement with the Evangelical Church. Hitler agreed, although there was strong opposition in the Party; and thus the Concordat was concluded. The Prosecution has adopted the view that this Concordat was a maneuver intended to deceive. Perhaps I may in this connection point to the facts that the gentlemen with whom I signed this Concordat were Secretary of State Pacelli, the present Pope, who had known Germany personally for 13 years, and Monsignor Kaas, who for years had been the Chairman of the Center Party, and that if these two men were willing to conclude a Concordat, then one can surely not maintain that this was a maneuver intended to deceive. 
The Catholics in Germany had organized themselves in the Center Party. Before 1918 the Center Party, as a moderate party, had always endeavored to establish a balance between the left and the right political wings. After the war that picture was altered entirely. 
We then find the Center Party mostly in coalition with the left. In Prussia, this coalition was maintained during all the years from 1918 until 1932. Undeniably the Center Party deserves much credit for the maintenance of the life of the State during the years after the collapse; but the coalition with the Social Democrats made co-operation of the Center Party with the right impossible, particularly with regard to Church policy. In political questions and matters of internal party policy the Center Party, therefore, followed a line of compromise which was the result obtained through the concessions of others in the field of Church policy. That this state of affairs... 
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kubuschok, to what is this all relevant? DR. KUBUSCHOK: The Prosecution has said: 
"Papen used his position of a prominent Catholic to consolidate the Nazi regime. He was double-faced, and that characteristic is especially obvious in this connection and throws light on his personality." 
::(there follows disculpation of charge that Papen himself undermined the  Reichskonkordat )
[Turning to the defendant.] In the summer of 1934 it became obvious that the Party was sabotaging the Concordat, and that Hitler's assurances were not being kept. How do you explain Hitler's behavior in this respect? 
283 
17 June 46 
VON PAPEN: I believe that in those days Hitler himself had been entirely willing to keep peace with the Church, but that the radical elements in his Party did not wish it............Besides, if the Prosecution assumes that on account of the certainly quite justified Encyclical of the Pope I should have left my post, then I must ask what did the Church do? The Church did not recall the Papal Nuncio from Berlin, and Bishop Berning did not leave the State Council in which he represented Catholic interests. No doubt all this was quite justified, because all of us at that time still hoped for inner changes................................. .
::(After particular disculpations and in more  general disculpation, von Papen justifies all whom the Prosecution considered to have conspired towards elevation of Hitler, through reference to this Bishop and inculpation towards an un-named high authority of some 3 years after that elevation .)
Von Papen: It appeared to me necessary, since the Catholic press had been completely muzzled, to do something to continue public discussion of the struggle against tendencies inimical to the Church. I very often talked about this question with Bishop Hudal, an outstanding churchman in Rome, whose book written in 1936 will be submitted to the Tribunal by my counsel. This book contains my severe criticism of the anti-religious tendencies and contains also an objective appreciation of the positive social ideas of National Socialism; it is all the more notable because a high authority of the Church was then, in 1936, making yet another attempt to create a synthesis between Christian ideas and the healthy doctrines of National Socialism. 
::I should say Papen and Kubuschok should be taken as pointing the nature of the relationship . I should say NPOV requires to include any further sources , and that the writings of Hudal as much as the inculpation of a high authority require NPOV attention. I give the link to the full extent of von Papen's disculpation, as is required by NPOV . I believe that NPOV will require a firm positioning of two views, and that apart from the curious inculpation of the Vatican, these are, originally, the defence and the prosecution. All Articles will need to allow primacy of the source. I do not believe that the verdict was given but that rather the prosecutary law did not extend to the fullest necessity required, and that NPOV would equally take account of that. 
::I ask any user to name the high authority? EffK 18:50, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hint:it cannot be Pius XI , as he was the highest authority. Hudal was close to Pacelli, according to the Googlethera, so- who is equal highest with him, who competes in our mind? So..., question, is... who other than Pacelli is referred to....-name the person- ...Quote a source. Or if you will not not do so, explain why ? Have you no source? Can you overide the logic of the source as presented ?EffK 01:40, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The [[Nuremberg Trials]] precedence for this Article

message: Highlighting relevances.All quotation by User:EffK from Wikipedia as per fair use/educational/acknowledged .All marked EffK signs in one go as EffK 13:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources mentioned or quoted, and discourse

message: *I'm unable to remember/find(it may have been deleted) where Str1977 placed his one english language quote for the vote. it is a record of the Kaas to the centre caucus at 11:30 am on 23 March 1933, and no wonder I get little counter source, as this one shows that Kaas knew that all in the party risked their soul if they voted yes. str1977 says it just mansds the party, but it comes from a priest, therefore is rather more 'technical'.EffK 
*At centre Discussions "Mommsen (The Rise and Fall of Weimar Democracy), as I recall, is very critical of both Kaas and Brüning, but he certainly doesn't accuse them of having a conspiracy to bring the Nazis to power, or whatever. I haven't checked out Richard Evans's new book yet, but that would be another good place to look. There's probably also been more specific studies of the Centre Party itself, too. john k 16:24, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed counter Sources quoted

message: *It is very difficult to focus the apparent controversies concerning the Episcopal failure in America in 2004 to follow the CDF Ratzinger line when the Theology page is separated from the subjects main page . However there is much remark that there was an episcopal rebellion in 2004 in the U.S. against Cardinal Ratzinger's hardline CDF policy , including Avery Cardinal Dulles' assertion that the Church would risk opening itself to accusation that it was interfering in political affairs . The Ratzinger instruction or guideline for the U.S.Bishops is available on-line as is the entire history and everything except Ratzinger's own covering personal guidance to Cardinal McCarrick which he desired to remain entirely confidential and secret . There is in this subject ,known in the U.S as the communion controversy a revealing theological evolution , the suggestion that in Rome juridical disquiet existed at the application of a 2002 text concerning divorced and re-married Catholics and communion , to the issue of grave sin arising in the policies of the Democratic candidate Kerry. This is apart from the controversy concerning the effect on the actual vote, which is considered factually as having been advantageous to the Republican Party . The theological differences are nuanced and revolve upon the difference between public un-worthiness because of 'private' sin (as in marriage or abortion) and un-worthiness on the part of a public figure , such as the otherwise devout John Kerry . In other words it returns to the Question of the Law (from Humanae Vitae) that I raised , to that which Cardinal Dulles feared and that which is of such perfectly scandalous historical record (see Pope Pius XII etcetera ) that I foresee the above questions of Latae Sententiae needing equal inclusion with all the aforesaid . Flamekeeper 21:07, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Bush-Kerry

message: This thesis about Hitler's anti-semitic 'calm' comes from Sebastian Haffner's The Meaning of Hitler , 1979, ISBN0297775723 Famekeeper 01:01, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sebastian Haffner

message: Franz von Papen is on record relating the words of this Pope , whom I placed in this article . On page 315 of John Toland's 1976 Adolf Hitler (Doubleday) appears the following relation of Papen's April visit to the vatican ( the same one I cited before -this is repetition) EffK
"His Holiness welcomed Hitler's representative , Franz von Papen , " most graciously and remarked how pleased he was that that the German government now had at its head a man uncompromisingly opposed to Communism and Russian nihilism in all its forms." 
Indeed .Through Pacelli and through the Hierarchy , Pope Pius XI knew much more , and undoubtedly was aware of the exterminating anti-semitic nature of Hitlerism , as Hitler was braggardly in claiming that (Toland writes) "He was only going to do more effectively what the Church of Rome had been attempting for so many centuries ". Earlier in April Hitler had defended his legislation , the Law Against Overcrowding of German Schools , in a talk with Bishop Berning and Monsignor Steinmann saying "the Jews were nothing but pernicious enemies of the State and Church " .
Whilst this was aimed at driving Jews out of academic life and the public professions, there were many Hitlerian explicit references to Jews perishing and being eradicated out of Europe.EffK
*Inmanuel Kant==
EffK paraphrases Inmanuel Kant :I remind you that good action must not only conform to moral law , but be done for the sake of moral law . That good will is good not by what it performs but simply by virtue of the volition , and that the function of reason is to produce a will good in itself , for reason recognises the establishment of a good will as its highest practical destination . Robert McClenon I urge you to reconsider your position regarding the necessity for this article to relate not to Cornwell , but to the history . Necessarily , the failure of good action and good will must be reported and the legalities enumerated . I am angered by the continuous absence of good will and the suffocation of reason . Famekeeper 00:00, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: John Toland

message: http://www.geocities.com/visplace/vatican10p2.htm[] not allowed, but appeared in 50 editions from 1949 onwards, Manhattan had sources from within the Vatican, so that makes him a Primary.from EffK 02:11, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Avro Manhattan]]