Talk:New Democratic Party/Archive 1

message: I note that someone has added a record of the "NDP's Senate seat". Lillian Dyck is, in fact, an "Independant New Democrat" and not a part of the NDP caucus, as the NDP does not support the exsistence of an unelected Senate. When she got the senate seat from then-Prime Minister Paul Martin, Jack Layton indicated that he would have accepted her as a member of caucus as an elected offical, but not as a appointed senator. Therefore, should they not be listed as having zero Senate seats?
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A discussion of the NDP's current status that does not relate the number of seats earned to the party's popular vote is incomplete. For most of its life, the party has had a higher popular vote than its seats indicate. 
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I'm not sure there is evidence for the statement that the NDP is for 'strong gun control'. Some provincial wings oppose strong gun control, and the Federal party is somewhat ambivalent, if IRC. 
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I went ahead and replaced designating the Liberal Party as "centrist" and the Conservative with "right-wing" with "centre-left" and "centre-right," respectively, to more accurately describe the political reality of the parties. 
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I can see why you'd want to work him in somewhere, but is it really "Tommy Douglas's Cooperative Commonwealth Federation (CCF)"?
He didn't start the party (in the sense that you could perhapse rightfully say "Preston Manning's Reform Party"), and he was also leader of the federal NDP for a time wasn't he? - stewacide 02:03 Dec 22, 2002 (UTC)
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Quick correction - Bill isn't the house leader, but the parliamentary leader. "House leader" is the official term for the party whip, IIRC. It's currently Libby Davies. - Montréalais
House Leader is someone who negotiates with other House Leaders and argues points before the Speaker. A Whip is someone who gets MPs in to vote and to vote by the party line. The current whip is Yvon Godin.
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Removed today's edit by 24.235.186.61.  Wild speculation about other people's personal opinions are irrelevant to explanation of party structure.  -J. 142.169.111.110 00:29, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "NDP's senate seat" 

message: The article talks of the NDP as a federal and provincial party entity.  The categorization has been changed to Canadian federal political parties.  Is this the right thing to do?  How should the NDP be categorized in this sense?  --Timc 18:42, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I can see what you mean.  It might be less confusing to move it to New Democratic Party of Canada.  As to whether this page should be a disambiguation page or a redirect, I think that warrants some discussion.  Personally, I think it might be best to redirect to this article, because there are links to all of the provincial parties from here. --Timc 12:12, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: I'm not an NDP member, but is it true that there are "separate" (in name) parties, with shared membership?  In that instance, a case could be made for classifying the New Democractic Party of Canada as a federal political party, and each provincial party as a provincial political party?
Well, I'll leave the debate to the Canadians, and see what emerges. john k 16:12, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: With my deepest, deepest respect, I'll beg to differ! How about Pierre Ducasse, who has stated that he voted for the Parti Québécois in 2003 and for the YES side in 1995? How about Dr. Amir Khadir, the now official UFP representative? ...who was candidate for the Bloc Québécois and demanded to the Parti Québécois to become a PQ candidate before going to the UFP and supporting the NDP in 2004? The natural links are there. René Lévesque himself stated more than once that the NDP was a party where he would have seen himself and compared the PQ to the NDP when explaining the nature of the PQ to international reporters. I'll remind you that the original NDP provincial wing in Quebec was co-founded by none other than Jean Duceppe, the famous actor who also helped found the Parti Québécois. He was one of the strongest supporters of sovereignty and the PQ and is the father of... yes, Gilles Duceppe, who is member of the PQ and kind of a supporter. :) All I heard of people hesitating last election, in the sovereigntist side, was hesitation betwen the Bloc and the NDP. Even well-known people like the signer of Mes Aïeux (in an article of the monthly Le Québécois). I personally even spoke of it with the NDP candidate in my riding and he told me that they got along great with the Bloc. Rochefort in one strange case: to the left without beign for sovereignty. In Quebec, the two are quite natural allies. Jack Layton has had very good words about the Bloc and many PQ past ministers, and his respectful attitude (at last! we've been waiting for something like that since Pearson) for the sovereigntists, did not fall in deaf ears. This even prompted Bernard Derome, on the SRC, to tell Layton that it seems the NDP is federalist in Canada and sovereigntist in Quebec. You know, which supporters do you think Layton and the party hoped to gain the sympathy of by establishing a distinct Quebec NDP face (up to special logo witht the fleur-de-lys) and proclaiming proudly a Quebec nation? The true pool of potential vote for the NDP in Quebec is simply in PQ support, certainly not in the PLQ or ADQ, two parties completly disconnected witht he heart of the Quebec left: social-democracy and national sovereignty. Also, Mr. Layton himself commented on the Parti Libéral du Québec and Natalie Rochefort, and it was quite amusing. In a public chat for Cyberpresse.ca, he was asked how the Liberal Party could take Rochefort. Layton answered: What I'm wondering is what Nathalie Rochefort is doing in Jean Charest's Liberal Party! --Liberlogos 18:51, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categorization 

message: I am curious about the change in Rose's description from "FLQ terrorist" to "FLQ member."  Is there a question over whether he was a terrorist?  Surely the problems with the NDP weren't caused by him merely being a former FLQ member, but an active participant in terrorist activities.  HistoryBA 02:20, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terrorist vs. Member 

message: Links that demonstrate that the NDP is "democratic socialist", including encyclopedia articles, a 1993 statement by the NDP national convention, and something from the Douglas-Coldwell Foundation. 
Also.. to quote from the NDP Constitution: "The New Democratic Party believes that the social, economic and political progress of Canada can be assured only by the application of democratic socialist principles to government and the administration of public affairs." 
Douglas-Coldwell Foundation
The Canadian Encyclopedia
Federal NDP
Encyclopaedia Brittanica
Kevintoronto 15:20, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Democratic socialism

message: As this is a historical look at the party, shouldn't Stanley Knowles be in it? I'm not sure how many other (if any) other party leaders of any kind have been made officers of The Order of Canada. He was an important figgure... Weaponofmassinstruction 03:39, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Stanley Knowles]] 

message: Michaelm: please explain your justification for adding populism to the description of the NDP's roots, or remove it. Thanks. Kevintoronto 13:35, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Populism

message: The article states that the NDP is in favour of abolishing the senate.  Is this accurate party policy, or are they more in favour of senate reform?  I think this would be important to clarify if it is the case.  --Comics 19:16, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: They are against the Senate, but at least one supporter (myself) support Senate reform. -- Earl Andrew - talk 19:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Senate policy 

message: Should Liberals be considered centre in the political spectrum? TDS  (talk • contribs)  02:19, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: More or less.  Very roughly speaking, a typical election in recent years has had around a third of Canadians vote for parties to the right of the Liberals (Reform, Alliance, PC, Conservative), a third of us have voted Liberal, and a third of us have voted for parties to the left of the Liberals (NDP, Bloc).  Sounds fairly "centre" to me. WilyD 14:25, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

text: There's a distinction between whether they're relatively centrist ie. compared to the country as a whole, or whether they're centrist as in having policy in the centre of the "true" political spectrum. In the same way that the Democratic party is seen as leftist in the context of American politics, it's more a centre or even centre-right political party in a largely conservative country. The Liberal party has the added complication of changing significantly with Canada's ever-changing political landscape, moreso I believe than many other parties. The debate of where exactly they lie on the political spectrum is interesting, but I'm not exactly sure how we can incorporate that into a brief mention of the NDP's political context. It's definitely worth a mention in the Liberal Party's article though, and in a brief look over I didn't find anything. Jammoe 10:58, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Liberals...centre? 

message: "The NDP may play an important role in getting legislation passed, particularly instituting electoral reform with proportional representation (PR). PR enjoys at least tacit support from all the opposition parties, which would apparently see elections to the House of Commons modelled on the system used in Germany. Also, there is historical precedent to the Liberals and NDP cooperating such as in the early 1960s and 1970s that laid the national framework for universal healthcare, expansion of employment insurance and the indexing of pensions."
While the NDP does support electoral reform, does that issue need explicit mention in a section concerning new developments? Why not mention fighting health care privatization, Kyoto protocol, "workers first" legislation or any other issue that has been of NPD priority, far ahead of proportional representation. Also, is it a fact that the PR system as used in Germany is advocated over that used in Ireland, France or any other of the vast majority of democratic nations that use some form of PR (but not Canada, the U.S. and Australia)? Finally, the last sentence in the paragraph above doesn't seem to belong there. It's true, but shouldn't that be mentioned in the section of past achievements and left out there? (Finally, the word "modeled" only has one "l"). I'm a new user to Wikipedia, so I hope someone tells me if I should go ahead and make changes myself, or wait for input from others before.--Skinny Fists 22:02, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Modelled can have two "l"s.  There is no reason to force US spellings on all Wikipedia articles.  HistoryBA 14:53, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proportional Representation Vs other issues 

message: What evidence is there to support the statement that Trudeau joined the Liberals "because he did not belive the NDP had a chance of ever forming a government"?  I had understood that the decision to join the Liberals had more to do with fighting Quebec nationalism than anything else.  HistoryBA 14:50, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So Trudeau left the NDP because he no longer shared the party's ideology, not becuase he thought the NDP couldn't win?  If that's the case, the passage I quoted above is incorrect.  I have removed it from the article until someone can provide some evidence to support it.  HistoryBA 13:51, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trudeau 

message: what is the stance of most NDP members on Quebec independence? --Revolución (talk) 21:17, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quebec independence 

message: I think that the changed/reverted sentence on Bob Rae is problematic.  I'm not sure what the anon. editor meant by POV but I think that when it appears as the lone factor it has the effect of making it read as the primary one.  Was there not a another factor in the decline of the NDP over the whole 15 year period?  At the very least the extreme popularity of the NDP governments in BC seems comparable.  When Broadbent left they had twice as many seats there as in Ontario.  Did the federal party not make any mistakes of its own also?  The section may also seem POV because Rae has parted ways with the NDP and blaming him alone for the decline of the national party may sound like scapegoating or just sour grapes.  --JGGardiner 16:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bob Rae

message: Different members of the party have different feelings on Quebec separatism, of course they all have to say that they support a united canada they do have different opinions on issues regarding the process of separation. Some members support the clarity act and some are against it. The clarity act is an act that did not pass but would have set specific goals that would have to be met to allow quebec to separate such as percentage of people who vote for separation and how different regions would separate, etc...
Actually the Clarity Act did pass.  Jack Layton (see his page) initially opposed it but supports it now.  McDonough and Blaikie among others broke ranks with Layton during the last election to say that they supported it when he did not.  --JGGardiner 18:43, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  regarding NDP's quebec separatism policy 

message: I've done some work on the intro, as it describes the political parties from a U.S. pov (not that there is anything wrong with that, but the reader would assume a Canadian outlook.)  Also, saying the NDP represents the far left of the political spectrum in parliament is a little misleading, as some bloc MP's are socialists, and some Canadians vote for the marijuana party.  Anyways hopfully my edits work out OK--Colle 01:23, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction overhaul 

message: - As you can see, the page has been vandalized.  Criticism of the party is being deleted.  Shocking how free speech on Wkipedia "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit" is closely watched.
::I don't see anything!  Looks good to me! --SECRET POLICE  22:53, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to believe that most political WP articles, this one included, are overly-protected by their partisans.  However, the criticism section removed here did not seem worthy of inclusion.  The version that I saw included one comment that was very vague and general (weak on defence) and one that was extremely specific and trivial (campaign workers for one particular candidate expressed mildly controversial opinion).  From what I have seen, party articles tend to include only major controversies or scandals rather than criticisms of general policy directions.  --JGGardiner 23:02, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a general topic, about the NDP from the CCF to present day.  Criticism is either partisan, of a particular ndp gaffe --Neither is appropriate.  There are people who literally have careers in stopping the NDP,  if we let the misguided souls begin adding criticism, the propaganda would certainly overtake the page.--Colle 23:16, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you on the recent criticism edit.  And I agree that pages on political parties are too general to include lists of every gaffe made by their many members.  But I must add that anyone is allowed to edit WP articles, whether partisans or opponents, even yahoos and crackpots.  Even non-partisans can lend a hand.  I think that we should worry about what is written, not who wrote it.  In this case, I believe that we are in total agreement that the criticism was not warranted.  --JGGardiner 23:28, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism of Page - NDP muffling free speech 

message: The principles section is still problematic.  Here is a particularly worrisome portion for example:
To a New Democrat, the investment in and care of a homeless person - to transform that individual into a happy and productive member of society - to ultimately appreciate the sactity of human life - is greater than an investment in an unliving 'thing' or 'things' such as a set of new clothes or a second car, when such item(s) may not be truly of need.
It is fine to list and detail their policies but one can not justify them.  Every political position has a political justification.  It isn’t that it is wrong, it is just that Wikipedia is not the place for that.  I’m sure that this section would make a wonderful speech or essay or political pamphlet.  However, Wikipedia is not a soapbox.  You can not advocate for a policy, however right, just, logical, reasonable you do it.  I think this is all well written but WP just isn’t the place for it.  For the moment I don’t want to change anything because I think it is important that it be reconstructed collaboratively so that we can detail the party’s policies and principles in a proper detailed and objective manner.  --JGGardiner 19:37, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the justification?  That is an awkward sentance, but it looks like someones attempt at explaining the position, not justifying it.  It's just saying the NDP values adressing the needs of society before the wants of the privilaged.--Colle 21:57, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can enumerate the position to say that they want to provide support to homeless people, you can detail it to say how, you can even say why they do it if there is some unusual reason.  But you can not say why a political position is a good idea.  That is advocacy.  You can't do that.  It's not bad or wrong.  I don't even think that it is awkward.  It just does not belong here.  Just as how you can not go to the Conservative page and say they support tax cuts because tax cuts are a good idea and they will improve the economy and make people richer.  WP is not a soapbox.  --JGGardiner 22:28, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you've said that, but its the flowerly language that is the problem, not the information the author is trying to get across.   It does not try to explain why the basic needs of the disadvantaged should be adressed before the wants of the rich, it just says that is NDP policy.  Pages on conservatism say the opposite --that satisfying the growing material desires of the advantaged classes is what best drives the economy, and helps the poor via the "trickle down effect".  Except in the conservative pages they tend to state that like it is a fact of life.  If that is not pov, this sure as hell isn't--Colle 23:16, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't completely agree with that but I'm glad that we've found some common ground, that there is a problem.  Hopefully we can have some good collaboration to make this page as good as it can be.  --JGGardiner 04:22, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with JGG - the "To a New Democrat" stuff sounds quite loaded, philosophical and much like an advertisement. People from the right side of the fence would just tell you that they're helping the disadvantaged with a tax cut or twenty. The CPC and the NDP are both on my watchlist, even though I don't much care for the NDP. It would be a shame if the pages became stupid flamewars - flamewars tend to start when you say that the other side of the debate just doesn't care. Including the theory behind all your political viewpoints is just asking somebody to come by and poke holes into it. Does that really belong in the NDP article? Some people ought to be editing Proletarian Revolution instead... --Sheldonc 11:51, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Principles, Policies and Problems

message: I do not believe that title merits half of the introduction.  I do not believe NDPers generally use it, nor does the media.--Colle||Talk-- 22:00, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  It is not a mainstream term and has only a short history, unlike Grits and Tories.  I'll delete it and see if someone can make a case for it to be restored.  HistoryBA 00:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I wouldn't include it either although it is somewhat common.  I've actually heard it used most in a derogatory sense and not an equivalent to "Tory" or "Grit" as the article implied.  --JGGardiner 03:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

text: No objections from me. I had expanded it from a one-sentence statement initially written by an anon user without context, but I agree wholeheartedly that it had to be either explained or deleted. It simply wasn't serving any useful purpose as originally written. Bearcat 05:12, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually there is one alternate name that seems fairly common.  I notice that Albertans tend to say NDs rather than NDPers which makes sense as the logical shortening of New Democrats.  I'm not an Albertan myself but this seems very widespread among Albertans in my experience.  Perhaps someone knows better than I do.  --JGGardiner 05:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've actually noticed the same. Can't even begin to explain it, since what I thought was the reason (the provincial party calling itself "Alberta New Democrats" rather than "Alberta New Democratic Party") doesn't seem to be supported by either their logo or their website. But I have noticed it. Bearcat 05:30, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Dippers" 

message: Question for y'all: an anon IP has twice edited this article to include populism in the infobox as a defining ideology of the NDP. Although they certainly have populist roots, I'm not entirely convinced that this is an accurate description of where the party stands today — but I don't want to revert it without discussion since it's been added more than once. Any input? Bearcat 20:38, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely not populist now, nor is it social liberal. -- WGee 00:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox

message: I removed this sentence:
:Some have felt that Barrett would have made a more effective leader than McLaughlin, since the NDP had long been the voice of Prarie discontent, but...
First of all, this is the first appearance that Dave Barrett makes in the article, and there is no context provided (the discussion about McLaughlin's ascension to the leadership appears in an earlier paragraph).  Secondly, what has McLaughlin or Barrett got to do with the Prairies or Quebec?  She is from the Yukon, he is from BC.  Instead I substituted something about the popularity of the NDP in other regions of the country relative to Quebec.  If somebody wants to add something about Barrett, it should be provided in context, and - given its anecdotal nature - cited. Fishhead64 21:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Barrett?

message: How does the NDP represent "liberal" views??? Social democratic/democratic socialist/left-wing/centre-left...for sure. But "liberal"...no way. Verged —Preceding undated comment added 23:53, 22 August 2006
:: YES WAY. Look up what the word actually means, rather than apply your own bias. If you look up the word "liberal" at Wiktionary the NDP as a party definitely fit the relevant definitions. Garth of the Forest (talk) 18:07, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Allthenames... I can only partially agree with the first sentence of your comments, the rest is completely inaccurate. The political landscape in Canada has been shifting to the right for the last 30 years or so, so if the NDP is now perceived to be more "centrist" then they have become much more of a big tent party, and, with the exception of certain wings of the party, changing with the times. The political landscape was much different during the CCF years. Also, the word "liberal" when applied to the political landscape has become almost meaningless in modern usage, unless you qualify your definition based on regional meaning or with a qualifier such as "classical liberal", "social liberal", etc., but even then meaning is vague at best. I prefer to restrict my use of the word to either capitalized use in a phrase (i.e. Alberta Liberal Party), or in non-political use (i.e. a liberal helping of potatoes) because otherwise it almost always carries an unintended connotation. Also, the use of the terms "left", "right", "left-leaning", "right-wing" etc when referring to Canadian political parties is simplistic at best and divisive and misleading otherwise and should be avoided whenever possible. More here: http://www.politicalcompass.org for a better model and to better explain what I mean. Garth of the Forest (talk) 18:07, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Liberal?

message: Should there bee a small bit about a NDP riding association saying that the mission is being guided by the United States and that Canadian troops are acting like “terrorists.” ? There is alot of talking in the news media, and with the NDP's convention this weekend, what do you think? Should it be added?  SFrank85 18:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not convinced that a withdrawn preamble to a resolution proposed by one riding association, which hasn't been adopted by the party because it was slated for presentation at a policy conference that hasn't happened yet, deserves special mention. Or, at least, if it does, then Reform Party of Canada should mention the policy resolution to overturn the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms that failed at that party's 1994 policy convention, because it's not neutral point-of-view to decide that only one party's internal controversies deserve to be spotlighted on Wikipedia. Bearcat 03:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree that the text previously added to the page was a bit slanted. However, under the heading "Principles, policies and electoral achievement" nothing is said about defense policy nor the NDP's position about Afganistan. Would someone that knows something about this add something? Or is their position a bit too unpopular perhaps?  Not a word in the entire article mentions this. --Sheldonc 16:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I quite agree that we should add something about the party's take on Afghanistan -- let's just make sure it isn't slanted.  CJCurrie 16:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canadian Troops called 'terrorists' 

message: Does anyone know if they have any information about past conventions? I was watching on CPAC and this one is the 22nd convention. We should create an article something along the lines of this one: Labour Party Conference -- Earl Andrew - talk 17:08, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NDP Conventions 

message: We have professionally-done portraits of Tommy Douglas, David Lewis, Ed Broadbent, Audrey McLaughlin, and Alexa McDonough, yet an informal, impromptu image of Layton—he isn't even facing the camera.  His facial expression is rather gloomy, as well.  Thus, could somebody find a more encyclopedic photo of Layton? I would do so myself, but I'm quite busy with other things both within and without Wikipedia. -- WGee 02:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image of Jack Layton 

message: The article now says: "On January 23, the NDP won 29 seats, a significant increase of 10 seats from the 19 won in 2004.  ...  The NDP kept all of the seats it held at the dissolution of Parliament .... [I]t gained five seats in British Columbia, five in Ontario, and the Western Arctic riding of the Northwest Territories."
If it held all its old seats, and picked up five plus five plus one, it seems like the gain was 11 seats, not 10.  Can someone clarify or correct? JamesMLane t c 06:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It won 19 in 2004, but held 18 at dissolution. 18 held + 11 won = 29 won. Biruitorul 08:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've re-written the sentence to include this fact, so that other readers don't think we added it up wrong. JamesMLane t c 09:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question about 2006 election