Talk:Germany at the Olympics

message: Should be listed as a separate team like Saarland and East Germany.--MacRusgail (talk) 15:14, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, now it is listed. But there is no way to see those West German team achievements, as it redirects back to this. And those are grey here. So it's now SNAFU, or what? 82.141.66.217 (talk) 10:17, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  West Germany 

message: The article, somewhat confusingly, adopts a different treatment of West German and East German participation in the Olympic Games to that adopted by the IOC. It can be learned from the footnotes that the IOC classifies German participation in the games via four codes: unified Germany (before and after division), East Germany during division, West Germany during division, and united German teams during division.
The article instead lumps unified Germany, West Germany and united Germany all together on the one hand, and then East Germany separately on the other hand. The somewhat vague justification given for this treatment is that West Germany's national olympic committee had the same name as the pre-division German national olympic committee. Even if this justifies putting West Germany together with unified Germany (and I do not think it does), it doe snot justify putting the united German teams with West Germany instead of with East Germany. 
The article seems to be erring on neutrality by preferring the legitimacy of West Germany over East Germany, which may be on a post facto basis since the contemporary German state has constitutional continuity with West Germany. This would be fine if it was supported by neutral, reliable, independent third party sources, or at least it stacks up between competing reliable sources, but it does not. This causes me to suspect some original research on the part of the editor who adopted this treatment.
The neutral and clear manner to treat this would be to break up the narrative and any statistics clearly into: 1. unified Germany (or possibly, pre-division Germany and post-reunification Germany separately), 2. East Germany, 3. West Germany, and 4. united German teams during division. This is how the IOC treats the issue and no case has been made out for why Wikipedia should department from this treatment. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 17:10, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The case is: Germany is one nation that has been divided into separate states after WW II but not different nations. The German athletes participated at the Olympic Games in a united team until 1964, which underlines this fact. So it's simply logical to sum up their achievements in sports.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.7.24.223 (talk) 23:07, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

text: It is not "just the same name". Today's Germany is precisely the same country (although larger in size) as the "West Germany" of 1949-1990. And its institutions are the same as well. The former German Democratic Republic dissolved, its (newly founded states) joined the Federal Republic of Germany (aka "West" Germany - never an official descriptor but only a handy moniker like N/S Korea, neither of whose uses it in its name), its sportspeople were now under the FRG's institutions - completely the same as before unification. So from a judicial point of view, the reunification was no different from Saarland's joining in the 50s, although on a greater scale - one country stopped existing, its people now belonging to another one. Since international law draws a direct line from the German Empire of the 19th century via Weimar Republic and Third Reich to the FRG, assuming continuity in other aspects like sports is at least sensible. To judge from different TLAs about different entities could be a counter argument, but I do not think that there is a political reason behind it. During division, "GER" could have been misleading, so FRG and GDR. Now GER is clearer than those, so FRG has been reverted. --Ulkomaalainen (talk) 16:27, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality, or an original research issue 

message: I noticed this issue at WT:OLYMPICS.This version is clearly an improvement of the article, and such tables are generally expected cf. Norway at the Olympics, Brazil at the Olympics and Zambia at the Olympics. The style currently used on Germany at the Winter Olympics and Germany at the Summer Olympics could work, but I find the table here significantly easier to read. Furthermore, as I set out below, the table inserted by Jmj713 is more relevant to what this article should be about. No information is lost as it has links in the table explaing where you will find the entries for the missing years.The dispute seems to stem from the "IOC's definition of 'Germany'" not matching "Germany's definition of 'Germany'". As this is an article on "Germany at the Olympics" it is (or should be) an article on "IOC's Germany". While having a section explaining the oddity is sensible, the rest of the article should concern itself exclusively with "IOC's Germany" (country code GER). The other "Germanies" are linked to in the infobox. On the off chance that IOC's treatment of the matter is disputed you can try to search for German medals in the period 1952-1988 here (link leads to a search for medalists from Germany at the 1972 Summer Olympics giving 0 hits). I'll concede that IOC's method is not the only way this is dealt with (e.g. here, where all medals are listed under Germany until the first time East Germany competed separately), but following the IOC is the most sensible way to ensure we are consistent when dealing with similar cases (e.g. Russia at the Olympics, Russian Empire at the Olympics etc.). 85.167.111.116 (talk) 23:52, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Germany at the Summer & Winter Olympics" table is in full compliance with the IOC data and does not hide any information. Please also note: the IOC data is a "primary" source → WP:RS - the IOC does not publish any official medal tables. The Russian NOC was founded in 1989 and has nothing to do with the NOC of the Russian Empire or the Soviet Union - Germanys' NOC was founded in 1895 and did represent the country ever since. I am not going to repeat the whole discussion. Please read the facts that are given above↑↑. This article is not about the IOC-code "GER" - if anything other than the country per se, it could be based on Germanys' NOC. --IIIraute (talk) 01:29, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: If this article is not (supposed to be) about the GER Germany, why do we have articles on the FRG, DDR, EUA and SAA Germanies? As far as the tables in the Summer and Winter articles go I conceded that they could work (certainly better than no table), but that I found them to cluttered. (By the way, those articles should be merged to this one.)The IOC don't publish official medal tables, but they do publish unofficial medal tables. They also publish a database where you can easily find all medallists from a given country at a given year as well as medal tallies for the countries for the Games they take part in. It is a primary source but primary sources can be used when citing "statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge". All medal tables are based on information published by the IOC, and, according to the IOC, GER did not compete and did not take medals from 1956 to 1988. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 11:43, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: What kind of argument is this - I can ask you why do we have "Germany at the Summer & Winter Olympics" articles? It makes sense to have a separate "GDR" article, because the GDR had its own NOC. However GER and FRG always had the same NOC. For a long time, what is now called FRG, wasn't even called FRG at the time of the Games, but GER - and was changed by the IOC in hindsight. It is true that primary sources can be used - but secondary sources are always to prefer. Policy: "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them." --IIIraute (talk) 18:10, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: In this case we do have to follow the IOC, because it's the body responsible for the Games. Should we renumber all the Olympic Games and give countries extra medals because the IOC no longer recognizes the 1906 Games, but there are secondary sources that say there were the Olympic Games. Jmj713 (talk) 18:15, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No, we do and will not. Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully. Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to the original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors. --IIIraute (talk) 18:45, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

text: Exactly what I've been trying to explain, maybe not very clearly. Also, these articles are part of a series and should in theory look uniform, which is what I've been trying to do, mainly going in alphabetical order from Afghanistan at the Olympics and on. It's a large project, since some articles use varied table formats, some are missing the Winter Games, and some are missing tables completely (like this one). So I'm coming to this not from any pro and anti nationalistic viewpoint, but purely from the point of view of recording and tabulating every country's participation. With countries like Germany, Yugoslavia, the Soviet Union, and so on, it can be a bit tricky, but in the end, having studied the records and the history of the IOC codes, it makes sense, from a geopolitical standpoint. Jmj713 (talk) 13:33, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That's exactly why the neutrality of this article is disputed: "GER did not compete and did not take medals from 1956 to 1988." So are you telling me that Germany did not compete from 1956 to 1988?? What is "GER"? GER is the Federal Republic of Germany. The Federal Republic of Germany did compete between 1956 and 1988 - and it is the very same Federal Republic of Germany that does compete since 1988. The IOC does not have the authority to refute international law and rewrite history. And cccording to international law we are talking about the same country, that has the same NOC since 1895. --IIIraute (talk) 19:18, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitrary break

message: I have noticed that many Olympic articles that are treated like the IOC's "bitch" (i.e. the IOC owns them) are in strict violation with WP:RS and do not use independent or third-party sources:
"Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to the original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors ... Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them."
Why don't we just "copy & paste" all IOC material right into the WP - would save a lot of work. --IIIraute (talk) 02:12, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not the place for this discussion. Feel free to challenge the current paradigm at WT:OLYMPICS or at a noticeboard. As I pointed out above other sources don't always follow the IOC. Why should we? I could write a lot about this, but it essentially boils down to the following and similar examples. If we claim that Norway competed at the 1904 Summer Olympics and won two gold medals we are introducing an incorrect statement into the article, because when you actually check the official results the two golds are listed as American. Similarly if we arbitrarily choose one of the ways combining German medals, our claims are strictly speaking incorrect. You may not like this, but the IOC actually has the power to define what is the "correct" or "official" way of seeing things related to the Olympics. In the same way FIFA can consider West Germany and Germany the same entity in the context of international football, and we follow them. It would be incorrect to claim that they have never won the World Cup, as they are clearly allowed to use three stars above their logo signifying their victories. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 12:10, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you know why FIFA does consider West Germany and Germany the same country? Because what you colloquially call "West Germany", did never exist. There is a sovereign country, called Federal Republic of Germany, before 1990, colloquially called West Germany - after 1990, colloquially called Germany. P.S. What you call "Germany" did win the World Cup in 1990. --IIIraute (talk) 19:34, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: How can you seriously say that when you like to the West Germany article and your table above has West Germany. You're just being willfully obtuse and obstructive. Jmj713 (talk) 19:44, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No idea what you are saying - take some history lessons. --IIIraute (talk) 20:00, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

text: (ec)I know that the "Federal Republic of Germany" generally is considered the same entity before and after reunification. It is completely irrelevant in the context of the Olympic Games. By the way, while reunification was in 1990, it was after "West Germany" had won the 1990 FIFA World Cup Final. FIFA chooses to consider West Germany's record part of Germany's. The IOC chooses not to. Wikipedia report the facts by explaining the special circumstances and reporting the official data. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 19:53, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: For the article, it doesn't matter what the IOC chooses to do. The IOC is a non-independent primary source. Most interestingly, the IOC doesn't make "any" statements about countries per se, but only lists unofficial tables per IOC-code. The IOC never claimed that FRG and GER are not the same country - only different codes have been used in hidsight to display some data. --IIIraute (talk) 20:00, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Essentially I agree; except that I think it matters. In the database search I linked to earlier the Germany-related options are "Germany", "Federal Republic of Germany (1950-1990, GER since)", "German Democratic Republic (1955-1990" and "Unified Team of Germany (1956, 1960, 1964)". You will also notice that there is no article on the United Kingdom at the Olympics. That is because the IOC refers to them as "Great Britain". 85.167.111.116 (talk) 20:36, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and the IOC refers to the Federal Republic of Germany as "Germany". My point. Nobody is arguing the article should be called "Federal Republic of Germany at the Olympics" - however, it doesn't change the fact that Germany is the "Federal Republic of Germany", and vice versa. --IIIraute (talk) 21:02, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: But nothing you say changes the fact that the IOC separates the pre-1990 Federal Republic of Germany (FRG) from the post-1990 Federal Republic of Germany (GER). Petition the IOC (contact a German IOC member or your National Olympic Committee), not Wikipedia; Wikipedia doesn't correct the errors of others, it reports the facts. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 21:34, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and the DOSB, the German National Olympic Committee, the official source (that is also given in the infobox and even cited by the IOC as official source - while the IOC itself only publishes unofficial data), does list all the Olympic Medals for Germany from 1896 to 2012, and not only for the IOC-code "GER". And then, there are other independent, third-party WP:RS that will also be taken into account. Maybe you should contact the Wikipedia and get the WP policies changed, so you can establish your IOC dictatorship encyclopedia. Until then, you will have to tolerate other WP:RS. IOC primary source data does certainly not have preference over other reliable WP:RS. Olympic Games related articles are to be treated just like any other WP article → Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). --IIIraute (talk) 21:55, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

text: The link provided gives the DOSB, the German National Olympic Committee, as official source - while the IOC itself only publishes unofficial data. The DOSB does list all the Olympic Medals for Germany from 1896 to 2012, and not only for the IOC-code "GER". Furthermore, there are other independent, third-party WP:RS that will also be taken into account. And yes, I do have a case for changing the article "All-time Olympic Games medal table", as there are lots of independent third-party WP:RS published on this subject. Best thing about it: No analysis of primary-source material, or synthetic claims necessary. I can't really see why these sources should be "banned" from the article - especially since it is in strict violation with several WP policies. --IIIraute (talk) 23:22, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  IOC  

message: An anonymous editor (85.76.50.30, 85.76.174.37, 85.76.113.152, 85.76.116.30, 85.76.171.209) has been continuously introducing the same edits, adding a multitude of flags Germany has used throughout its Olympic history. I understand the need for this historic information, but in my estimation, this needlessly encumbers the tables, especially since Germany's Olympic participation is not a simple matter in and of itself. Please discuss and do not revert back as per WP:BRD. Thanks. Jmj713 (talk) 14:51, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Different flags, look at e.g. Germany at the 1896 Summer Olympics, Germany at the 1912 Summer Olympics and Germany at the 1936 Winter Olympics. --85.76.110.51 (talk) 16:57, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm well aware of the flags. This article is not about flags though. Jmj713 (talk) 17:18, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody owns the articles, but everybody is allowed to do improvements. --85.76.178.95 (talk) 23:41, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: And WP:CONSENSUS is that your edits are not "improvements". — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:53, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Various German flags 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Germany at the Olympics's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "ref1":
From All-time Olympic Games medal table: Counting the eleven Games where East Germany and West Germany competed as two separate teams.
From All-time Olympic Games medal table: Counting one more Summer Olympic Games where East Germany in 1980 and West Germany in 1984 competed.
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 21:19, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Germany at the Olympics]] 

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I have just modified 2 external links on Germany at the Olympics. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130516083946/http://www.sports-reference.com:80/olympics/countries/GER/ to http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/countries/GER
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thread_title:  External links modified