Talk:1978 South Lebanon conflict

message: I think some or all of this may find a proper home here.
Kaisershatner 16:03, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not here; I suggest this belongs to the 1982 (Big/Little Pines) invasion of Lebanon, not 1978 (Operation Litani) invasion. Joffan 19:43, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Text from History of Lebanon Article

message: Yuber and Guy, please discuss your differences here on talk without continually reverting to previous versions. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:26, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
I tried to put in some compromise wording.  In particular, as I am not sure that everyone here is a native speaker of English, I would like to emphasize that "attack" is significantly stronger and pejorative compared to "invasion."  So this back and forth makes no sense at all, as it is opposite to Guy'a and Yuber's apparent POVs.  Otherwise I tried to keep all the disputed material in here, whether or not I thought it was relevant or correct, and tried to meld Guy's and Yuber's wording where I thought it would help.  I think it is a good thing that people fight about things they care about here, but I think the process should converge, however slowly, and people should argue about specific texts one by one.  After all, what's the point of writing something that is completely impermanent, never getting to a text which might not be your preferred one, but is an acceptable compromise?--John Z 14:46, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is about the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.  What does Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon have to do with it?Yuber(talk) 03:50, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverting

message: We cannot call Syria's presence an occupation and Israel's not an occupation.  It's either they both are, or they both aren't.
Here's a source showing that Israel withdrew its own forces:
After consultations throughout the weekend, the Security Council this afternoon endorsed the work done by the United Nations as mandated by the Security Council, including the Secretary-General’s conclusion that, as of 16 June, Israel had withdrawn its forces from Lebanon in accordance with Security Council resolution 425 (1978).   Yuber(talk) 00:45, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I made a new article where this can be discussed: Israeli occupation of Lebanon. Yuber(talk) 01:02, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Weren't you the one who made this earlier edit ?  I thought there was an agreement that either both are presences or both are occupations. Yuber(talk) 01:42, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yuber, I'm talking about the article you created for WP:POINT, please don't try to re-direct. Jayjg (talk) 15:58, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

text: No offense, but that is just POV-pushing and you are just trying to make your POV seem neutral.  Israel had military forces in its "security-zone" for 18 years and the UN and the international community verified this.  When Israel withdrew its forces, the SLA was overrun by Hezbollah and the Lebanese government. Yuber(talk) 02:29, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Don't take me wrong. I'm not here to act superiority or to threat anyone, but it's my right to criticise some editors' methods. About the UN's neglected viewpoint, but also about some editors trying to express therir own viewpoint. We don't care about these POVs but about each party opinion involved in any article, with good references. What is sometimes done is to find a compromise instead of embracing all opinions. CG 11:51, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've found a compromise by removing the contentious bit of text altogether. It didn't add anything to the article, and the UN Resolution it referred to didn't mention occupation. Jayjg (talk) 19:42, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Israeli occupation

message: My understanding is that now the article is essentially a copy-paste from http://operation-litani.biography.ms/. I do not believe the source is entirely reliable, so the totallydisputed tag is probably justified.--Pecher 16:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That link is actually a copy of this article, rather than the reverse. Do you have any specific objections to the content here? Jayjg (talk) 19:49, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The previous version of the article called PLO terrorists who perpetrated the Coastal Road massacre "seaborne commandos", probably the low point of terrorism whitewash in Wikipedia. I have have reworded the sentence, though. The sections on the course and consequences of fighting are mostly based on Robert Fisk's writings, though he is neither a scholarly, nor a neutral sources. For example, the statement that "With Israeli aid, the SLA continually harassed UNIFIL." is heavily biased and not supported by the rest of the section. I have placed the tags in those two sections.--Pecher 11:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: According to all I know, Israel withrew completely from Lebanon by June 1978. Do you have any sources to the contrary?85.250.252.140 16:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why "Partial withdrawl"?

message: :"The background was rather sparse, missing many of the most famous attacks on Israel by Palestians from Lebanon, though it did seem to cover the most famous attacks by Israel on Palestinian or Lebanese targets."  
Well, now Wikipedia has done the opposite - this article overwhelmingly focuses on attacks by Palestinians from Lebanon on Israel, but downplays attacks on Lebanese and Palestinians targets by Israel.  The article should let us know the number of Israelis killed by Palestinians from 1969 to 1978 and the number of Palestinians and Lebanese killed by Israel from 1969 to 1978.  Even worse, the article only gives one sentence to the number of Lebanese civilians killed by Operation Litani.   
Talking about the background to Operation Litani, it's also worth noting that,with the exception of the Coastal Road Massacre, virtually all the attacks Jayig mentions occured in 1975 or before.    As Benny Morris writes, "By 1975-6 the IDF had managed substantially to seal the northern border and the Meditteranean coastline against PLO incurisions.  The main means were the electronically monitored barbed-wire fence, flanked by minefields, which stretched from the slopes of Mount Hermon to the Meditteranean; ambushes and patrols, many of them inside Lebanese territory; and land, air and sea radar and other surveillance systems" (Benny Morris, Righteous Victims, p.499). 
This article takes as its starting point that Operation Litani was to protect Israeli civilians, and doesn't even entertain the Palestinian viewpoint that the Coastal Road Massacre was a pretext, and that the real purpose of Operation Litanti being to weaken or destroy the PLO as a political force.  Let me quote Noam Chomsky (if Jayig can quote the Jewish Virtual Library, I can quote Chomsky): 
"From the early 1970s, Lebanon was drawn into the conflict as a result of cross-border PLO terror and far more destructive Israeli attacks on Lebanon, sometimes retaliatory, often not. Thus in February 1973, Israeli forces attacked north of Beirut, killing many civilians, in a raid justified as preemptive. In December 1975, Israeli bombing killed over 50 Lebanese in an attack Israel described as "preventive, not punitive"; it appears to have been a reaction to the UN Security Council meeting debating the diplomatic settlement that Israel opposed and Washington vetoed. There are many other examples. " (Israel, Lebanon, and the "Peace Process", Noam Chomsky, Z Magazine, April 23, 1996)
Similarly, this is what the Egyptian Daily Al-Ahram (March 17, 1978) wrote at the time of Operation Litani:
"[The Israeli occupation of South Lebanon] indicates that Israeli intends to add new cards to the hands she hopes to use for exerting pressure and bargaining in future negotiations, cards that will be taken from the Arab hand."
And the Jordanian Daily Al-Dustur (March 16, 1978) wrote that:
"The slogan of vengeance was used as a cover for other motives.  These motives were essentially political....Washington and Tel Aviv, and some Arab Capitals, all want to see a different 'Palestinian legitimacy' from the present one, and as the Arabs concerned have been unable to effect this change, it was decided that Israel could pave the way for it by striking at the basic material of the present legitimacy - the fighting Palestinian."  
The Palestinian viewpoint may be wrong, but it violates the mission of Wikipedia to leave it out of the article.  --Peter FH 15:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Name changed in acccordance to the guidelines. Operation Litani was Israeli-POV --TheFEARgod (Ч) 14:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New standard name 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:SLA patch.png

message: I've added some history relating to this conflict at Maroun al-Ras. It details events starting March 1, 1978, two weeks prior to the invasion. __meco (talk) 10:11, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I still believe this article is amiss for not including mention of that. __meco (talk) 07:06, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Preamble 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/22f431edb91c6f548525678a0051be1d/bb095796d02d589785256b910058cc00!OpenDocument
** In History of Lebanon on 2011-03-29 15:05:24, 404 Not Found
** In 1978 South Lebanon conflict on 2011-05-25 04:48:43, 404 Not Found
** In 1978 South Lebanon conflict on 2011-06-07 00:35:20, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 00:35, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

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thread_title: File:South Lebanon Army Patch.png Nominated for Deletion

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Please note that Template:Infobox military conflict#Parameters states against "result" that "this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive"." The infobox has been amended to reflect this. Please read the template "result" guidance in full before amending or reverting. It would probably be best to discuss any proposed change here first to seek consensus. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:50, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox "Result" 

message: 10,000 Lebanese and PalestiniNs were killed according to Robert Fisk. Intro is biased and not sourced Lebanesebebe123 (talk) 16:53, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  10,000 killed