Talk:Centralia massacre (Washington)

message: The quotation of the passage of John Dos Passos describing Grimm's character was wrong and with twisted meaning. Dos Passos does not view Grimm sympathetically as it was in the article before. The passage on a section of 1919 (the second book of the USA trilogy) reads: "A young man of good family and pleasant manners, Warren O. Grimm, had been an officer with the American force in Siberia; that made him an authority on labor and Bolsheviks, so he was chosen by the businessemen to lead the hundred per cent forces in the Citizens' Protective League to put the fear of god into Paul Bunyan". This section of the book called "Paul Bunyan" is a praise of Wesley Everest who is equated in the text to the mythical character of the title, and is very sympathetic towards the I.W:W. and takes a very ironic and cynical view regarding the other side.
(it is the first time i edit an article on wikipedia, so apologies for any inadverted breach of etiquette)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.130.71.187 (talk) 23:44, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Quotation of Dos Passos corrected

message: I want to put up a page on Centralia Massacre (Missouri) about an attack during the Civil War involving Jesse James.  In the process I would like to convert the Washington page to Centralia massacre (Washington) and then set up a disambiguation page for Centralia Massacre.  Of the two incidents the Missouri incident was probably the bigger of the two.  Americasroof 13:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All done now. Twisted86 09:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just fixed all the internal links.-- Randall Bart 05:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Centralia massacre (Missouri)

message: If anyone who reads or edits this page lives in the Centralia, WA area and has access to a digital camera, perhaps they might consider taking a picture of the park memorial statue for the killed Legionnaires and of the Elk's mural honoring the Wobblies and then posting the pictures here in this article under a "PD (self made)" license.  It would make the article look much better. Cla68 20:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pictures

message: This article makes it seem that Emma Goldman settled in the USSR of her own will, when in fact, she was forcibly exiled there by the FBI. Beret 21:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Emma Goldman

message: For the record, i think the history of the attack should be revised, with citations added. 
I have undone two edits this past week which made that account much more POV, and much worse.
Contrary to what the anonymous editor has charged in their edit summary, i did not add any POV whatsoever. Rather, in two cases i undid that individual's edits, without changing a word of text beyond that necessary step. 
It would be great if someone could find the time to revise, and add sources to the account. Richard Myers 01:57, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  About POV in the history of the attack 

message: We have an editing dispute. In accordance with Wikipedia policy, i am going to attempt to resolve this by taking the recommended steps.
My first issue — editor 65.6.152.232, are you also Panther1991? This is an important issue in the resolution of this dispute; the editing history of Warren Grimm suggests that you are the same individual. 
Since we haven't yet determined that for certain, i will address myself to 65.6.152.232:
You have edited Warren Grimm, and you have edited Centralia Massacre (Washington). I have concerns about much of the content you've introduced. But for now i'll limit myself to one historical question: who initiated the violence that has come to be called the Centralia Massacre?
One of the changes you've made to Centralia Massacre (Washington), and have re-introduced many times, is the allegation that:
The clash was initiated when IWW snipers, perched on rooftops, fired into American Legion troops who had paused to reform ranks while on parade. This attack resulted the shooting deaths of four Legionnaires, the wounded of at least a dozen more, and the subsequent storming of the Wobblie Hall by the remaining Legionnaires. The Legionnaires, though initially unarmed, were able capture a number of IWW members and turn them over to local authorities. These IWW members were formally arrested and jailed. [emphasis added]
The article Warren Grimm cites a reference, 
:http://content.lib.washington.edu/iwwweb/read.html
which states,
The Centralia group stopped in front of the I.W.W. hall, and a subset of the Centralia group left the main group, ran to the I.W.W. hall, and forced the door open. Much to their surprise, they were met by gunfire. There is little doubt, from later testimony, most notably that of Dr. Frank Bickford who admitted leading the raid, that the Legionnaires initiated the conflict. [emphasis added]
Since i believe that you, 65.6.152.232, are also Panther1991 (and you can certainly deny this if it is not true!), it appears to me that you have linked to a source in the article Warren Grimm, and deliberately distorted the history through omission of important details by writing in Warren Grimm that,
With the Legionnaires paused in front of the Roderick Hotel, Grimm gave the command to “Halt… Close Up.” At that instant, shots broke out. 
 
This does not square very well with the historical account that you've linked to, does it?
Nor does it agree with other historical accounts. Please read this excerpt from an account of the history at the Washington State Historical Society website. Although there may be some historical differences in focus in different accounts, the following, by its appearance on the WSHS website, would appear to be an acceptable version of the history. Note that this refers to two separate incidents, in subsequent years:
In May of the year that would see the end of World War I, members of the Centralia Home Guard and Elks marched in a parade to raise money for the Red Cross. The marchers broke ranks in front of the IWW hall and raided it, throwing furniture, records and Wobbly literature into the street and setting it on fire. A desk and phonograph from the hall were auctioned off and the money donated to the Red Cross. The men inside the hall were "lifted by their ears" into a truck, driven out of town where they were forced to run the gauntlet while being beaten with sticks and ax handles.
At a meeting of the Centralia Protective Association in October 1919, a vigilante threat had been made "to handle the Wobblies [the] way they did in Aberdeen. Clean 'em up; burn 'em out." By the first week of November rumors about an intended raid during the Armistice Day parade were an open secret. The Wobblies were very aware of what they could expect based on past experience. This time the IWW members sought legal advice from their attorney, Elmer Smith, and were told that they had the right to defend themselves and the hall. It was the legionnaires who were surprised when the Wobblies did just that. The hostility that had been seething for years between the businessmen, the American Legion and the IWW came to its flash point during the parade. Years of smoldering anger on both sides now became a class war.
All of the marchers had passed the IWW hall except for the Centralia contingent; as they moved ahead to close the gap, the command of "Halt!" was given in front of the hall. The sounds of a door being kicked in were mixed with glass breaking and shots being fired. The hall was raided; the Wobblies defended their hall, and two legionnaires were killed. When Wesley Everest who was was armed and inside the IWW hall tried to make his escape, he shot two of the men who were pursuing him. Now there were four legionnaires dead. The need to exact instant retribution overcame the survivors; Everest was captured and almost hanged before he was taken to jail. That night the power was cut off in Centralia and Everest was taken from the jail there to a bridge over the Chehalis River and hanged.
http://www.wshs.org/wshs/columbia/articles/0399-a2.htm
In both cases cited in this history, in subsequent years, the violence was initiated by others against the IWW. 
Now i have some other questions for you, 65.6.152.232. In making these significant changes, why have you not linked to a source that supports them?
On what grounds did you [remove the totallydisputed notice], without any sort of discussion or procedure? 
Why have you not attempted to explain your edits on this talk page?
I have sent you a notice at: User talk:65.6.152.232, and at User talk:Panther1991. Please respond, so that i don't have to take this to dispute resolution without a record of your point of view.
best wishes, Richard Myers 04:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  First Step in a Dispute Resolution Process 

message: I have removed the text in italics:
The IWW, by contrast, was and remains today a radical labor union with intense anti-capitalistic views verging on anarcho-syndicalist
The IWW practices, and promotes, revolutionary industrial unionism. There are some who have described this as anarcho-syndicalism. Others (including me) consider these two similar, but distinct, union philosophies. Historically, the difference can be easily demonstrated. The industrial unionism of the IWW had a uniquely American birth, growing out of the experiences in the Colorado Labor Wars, and from union philosophies of men like Bill Haywood and Ed Boyce. While the IWW did organize, and was influenced by, immigrants, the basic philosophy of the IWW was crystallized in 1908, and has remained essentially unchanged since that time. Syndicalism is primarily a European concept. 
I have removed the text in italics:
At that time, the national leadership of the IWW also had strong ties to the Bolsheviks and the union was passionately opposed to American involvement in World War I.
This (strong ties to the Bolsheviks) is a false accusation. 
*In fact, the IWW promptly began organizing the workers in Russian ports after the Russian revolution, against the wishes of their leaders, the Bolsheviks. Some IWW organizers in Leningrad were killed by the Red Army for doing so. 
*From 1908, the IWW constitution has prohibited the organization from forming an alliance with any political party. That includes the Socialists, the Communist Party, or the Democrats. 
*The IWW — leadership or membership — never had ANY strong ties to the Bolsheviks whatsoever. Even Bill Haywood, who exiled himself to Russia in poor health and isolation in order to avoid a very long prison sentence (his book records his sentence as 38 years), had no real ties to the Bolsheviks until he was granted an audience with Lenin. 
*John Reed tried to establish a tie between the IWW and the Bolsheviks; the Bolshies "ordered" him to tell the IWW to dissolve itself and send all its members to infiltrate the AFL. The IWW told them where to stick it, the IWW had been in existence and organizing for fifteen years and the Bolsheviks were an underground conspiracy until 1917. 
*In 1925 about half of the membership of the IWW became disenchanted with a year-old split in the organization, and left. Many of them became communists. That left behind a core who firmly believed, and had been publishing in the Industrial Worker for more than a decade, that the Communist leadership were just another set of bosses. 
I have revised:
by this time, the Wobblies were openly supporting the Bolsheviks and union members were being arrested across the country on federal sedition charges. 
and changed it to:
The Bolsheviks had come to power in Russia, and many feared that the IWW's intentions were similar. Union members were being arrested across the country on federal sedition charges.
I added some text here:
The rest, allegedly armed with high-powered rifles and stationed in those other buildings, rooftops, and on Seminary Hill, served not as lookouts but as ambushers. Since they could not influence any confrontation within the Hall, these citizens believed, the Wobblies' goal was to create a killing field in the middle of North Tower Street. 
Changed this:
The American Legion counters by pointing out the amazing coincidence 
to this:
The American Legion counters by pointing out what they believe is the incriminating coincidence 
I added this text:
In contrast, IWW memoirs make no mention of this final brutal act, if it in fact occurred. 
This concludes the substantive changes that i have made. All the rest are minor spelling or wording changes.
best wishes, Richard Myers 05:08, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes to the article 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I came to the talk page, having read this: "Legionnaire McElfresh, standing nearby, was next. Hit in the brain by a .22 caliber bullet allegedly fired from Seminary Hill over 500 yards away, he was killed instantly."  As someone who has shot .22s for 50+ years, this jumped out at me as extremely suspect, because .22s don't have that kind of range.  The shooter would have to have aimed at a point several feet above his target's head, and then hit the guy in the eye, because the bullet wouldn't have enough momentum left to go through a human skull.  It sounded as if someone were playing with the facts to fit a certain narrative.
Then I come here, and find that it's been 10 years since a guy who wrote a book on the subject pointed out this, and many other inaccuracies in the article.  I don't have the time to edit much right now, but I hope this can get cleaned up at some point. Poindexter Propellerhead (talk) 01:37, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concerns about accuracy 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:23, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: Hey everyone!
Recent articles from Centralia's Daily Chronicle that might be of use to help source the article a bit so we can get that citation template box at the header removed...
A recap of the massacre itself.
Recent announcement of IWW plaque with some details.
I'd do it but this article isn't really my forte and I think it best a more experienced editor in this type of subject handle the work.
Happy editing!
Shortiefourten (talk) 18:42, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition local sourcing for those wishing to tackle the citation issues