Talk:The Bielski Brothers

message: I guess it should be about persons, not book(s).
About Bielski there are until now mostly two kind of books: praising by Jewish and Western authors, and criticism by Polish right-wing and antisemitic Polish sources. This is because ntuil 1990 the topic of Jewish partisans and behaviour of soviets and communists could not be investiageted and discussed freely in Poland; only recently Polish historians started to investigated the issue, there is investigation by IPN which confirmed the massacres but reduced number of victims etc.
Unfortunately, on the internet one may find almost only sites created by Polonia, which has to be filtered from some anti-semitic gibberish and rhetoric. The example for this is here:
http://www.naszawitryna.pl/jedwabne_en_127.html
It is based on real testimonies and real sources, however added rhetoric make it hard to read.
It may be hoped that results of IPN investigation will be then put on some pages by neutral people. 
To praise the Bielski's as "heroes" and to deny their deeds is strange. They were not perfect people. They were trying to save themselves and people they cared for, but in the same time they were murdering Polish children, woman and man.
Szopen 09:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy 

message: I think this article should be moved to Bielski partisans, as surely the main focus of the article should be the group, book(s) are not that notable.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Reading your comment, I found that at present, Bielski partisans redirects back to this article (about the particular book), which I agree is not appropriate to represent this topic, let alone cover it. I haven't found an article on the brothers Bielski in any foreign language Wikipedia I've checked, but I'm able to do library research and create an article stub (or several) on them. I'll work through the Jewish History WikiProject to enlist the advice of and review by other editors. Deborahjay 19:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: that would be great! Just remember to keep the article NPOV - Bielski were not heroes, or maybe - they were heroes from one point of view, but they were bandits from the other... Szopen 06:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks for your interest and encouragement! I'll bear your caveat in mind, and provide ample factual content. (For my further comments on partisans as heroes vs. bandits, see next section in this discussion page.) Deborahjay 11:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move 

message: [NOTE: The following POV comment has been placed here rather than in the body of the article, as had beeen inserted by an anonymous editor signing as "Peter Duffy", i.e. the book's author] -- Deborahjay 21:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Objection to allegations of atrocities - comment  

message: This article's edit history shows previous versions with extensive contentions, supported by external links, regarding purported activities of the Bielski partisans that are apparently not covered in this book. A series of edits has removed these.
In my most recent edit, I've written a concise, NPOV synopsis about the above allegations "apparently not mentioned in Duffy's book". Anything else belongs in an article about the Bielski partisans, as yet to be written. Be assured that if and when it is, I'll take part in its editing. 
As of now, I'm removing the "factual accuracy is disputed" template, as I believe my edit has neutralized that charge as regards this article.  -- Deborahjay 21:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is about Duffy's book; no longer "factual accuracy disputed" 

message: I think this book is not notable, it should be merged to Bielski partisans article.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I only edit erraticly, but this topic does draw my interest.  I think the two articles should be merged, and that the merger would lead to a more complete picture of the larger group and their leaders.  Thank you.  65.54.155.43 06:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm against. The book is not notable, it's about the brothers, it does not mention the Bielski's crimes. The article about Bielski's brothers at least mentions them briefly, though without much details. That way we avoid the revert war each time anonymous coward signing as "Peter Duffy" blindly deletes the info about IPN investigation and Naliboki massacre. Szopen 08:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree that the book deserves its own article and find the arguments against spurious. Of course, a lot of details should be fixed, added, and improved, but the same may be said about many similar WP articles. ←Humus sapiens ну? 08:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: FWIW, I do not quite think this book is of the literary or historical significance of the Grapes of Wrath, or that Duffy is comparable Steinbeck. The proper question is, is it any more notable than run of the mill popular historical works? DGG (talk) 02:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge to [[Bielski partisans]]

message: A review from the highly biased site is for example here: http://www.naszawitryna.pl/jedwabne_en_127.html. Turn on the language filter and you will see the review author ask real questions.
I haven't read P.Duffy's book, but I heard few issues repeating in several reviews. Someone, who has access to the book, please confirm.
Supposedly Duffy wrote in his book (pages 232/33 according to the http://www.kpk.org/english/toronto/tangledweb_1_of_3.pdf , the very last page since document deals with Eliach Yaffa)
# That Bor-Komorowski issued an order of liquidating Jewish partisans (I think that this may be based on the real Bor-Komorowski order - i've read elsewhere that some western authors have edited it and published falsified version to "prove" Bor-Komorowski was antisemite)
# supposedly Duffy presented AK as allied with Germans
# supposedly Duffy does not mention Naliboki massacre, where Bielski's partisans participated - this is probably the largest and best-known massacre of Polish peasants in the area.
# Supposedly Duffy does not write about robbing the impoverished population from the food, and in some accidents from valuables.
As I wrote before in discussions in Deborahjay, I won't touch the article until someone can answer me those questions. I am not sure whether I can be completely NPOV in the case of Bielski brothers, since my family came from Kresy, though not from Nowogrodek area.
Szopen 11:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Not containing info about war crimes" 

message: *Any sources?
*What if the antisemitic circles tell the truth? Is an antisemitic truth false? Xx236 (talk) 14:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: any reviews from liberal circles? The article asserts there are negative reviews from them, butt hey are not cited. Either remove or document. DGG (talk) 02:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I already removed most of the sketchy sources and edited the text a bit accordingly. The only source left is really that Mark Paul thing which is no longer available online (so I don't know much about it). Totally agree that this article could use some good refs.radek (talk) 03:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Checking around it seems the Polish edition of the book is not coming out until February 2009 so there probably won't be many reviews from Polish papers and academics until then. So for now it's just mostly Polonia (Poles in the West) reviews of the English edition.radek (talk) 03:12, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Also, according to this Amazon review (I know, I know, not RS but a place to start)  indicates that the mistaken mentioning of the Bor-Komorowski order myth was removed from the paperback edition.radek (talk) 03:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Many, but not all, of those reviews came from extreme right-wing and/or antisemitic circles 

message: The English in this article is atrocious, especially in the part which outlines the supposed criticisms laid on the book. To whatever foreigner or baby that wrote it, thanks but no thanks. Can someone edit this?-SF  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.237.201.106 (talk) 08:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who Wrote This? An Infant? 

message: Have there been any positive reviews of the book? If so, they should be given as much space as the negative ones. Have the negative ones been criticized? That should also be included. (If any of this is in Polish, Im not the one to find it, so I ask help of those here who know that language and  have access to the sources.)DGG (talk) 02:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the book evidently was positively reviewed in three significant journals: Publishers Weekly, Kirkus and Library Journal. See the "editorial reviews" tab here . I think these reviews need to be reflected in the article, and that their absence, and the gross overemphasis on criticism in Poland, is a serious WP:NPOV issue, in repetition of what seems to be a pattern in articles on this general subject. I would like to see the regular editors here rectify this problem voluntarily and make this article neutral without further prodding. Stetsonharry (talk) 16:52, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

text: OK, I went ahead and added the three reviews, and also tried to fix the remainder of the section. Question: if much of the criticism comes from the "right wing and anti-Semitic" press, and thus a fringe element, why is it being given so much weight? Isn't that a clear breach of WP:UNDUE? Stetsonharry (talk) 23:52, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: criticism

message: To avoid confusion when with people looking for the main article on the partisan group, I suggest moving this to The Bielski Brothers (book).
:I think that's a good idea. Stetsonharry (talk) 16:53, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Support this.radek (talk) 17:45, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: doneDGG (talk) 00:02, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: title

message: Do you mean Malbork? Asael Bielski says 1945. Xx236 (talk) 05:41, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The text doesn't link Bielski partisans. Please link.Xx236 (talk) 05:44, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marlbork ?