Talk:Ipuwer Papyrus

message: (Currently this article is a stub)
The translation and/or a link to the content of the Papyrus is conspicuously missing while everything that is listed is speculation.  I would suggest simply listing the text and let it speak for itself.
*<S>Where is the papyrus currently?</S> see below at official name
*What is Ipuwer (personal name, place name...)?
*Who is Jon Van Seters?
*Is there disagreement about the interpretation of the papyrus?
*Anyone have a picture of the papyrus that we can use?
:I have provided the Van Seters reference (his credentials will not be easy to obtain). There seem to be alternative views on its placement in history.
:Ipuwer seems to be the narrator.
:I could not find a picture for GFDL use.
:There are many online sources discussing its interpretation, but I had not the time to find out an authoratitive view from an established Egyptologist. JFW | T@lk 18:09, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Things to add

message: Leiden Papyrus #344 according to xenohistorian.faithweb.com/africa/Ipuwer.html.  While I don't consider such a web site authoritative I will (at least provisionally) accept their word for the offical name. RJFJR 23:05, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
:I could not access the museum's catalogue link from work, but this would confirm its location. JFW | T@lk 18:09, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Official name

message: *Ramses II had a long and prosperous reign. There is not the slightest documentary or archaeological evidence that he drowned in the sea, or that he had to deal with anything like the Plagues of Egypt or a massive slave revolt. 
*The only evidence that ties Ramses to the Exodus is the statement in Exodus 1:11 that Pharaoh forced the Israelites to build the city of Raamses. However, archaeologists know very well that this was built c.1720 BC, 500 years before Ramses II, and the megalomaniac Ramses II changed the name to his own. Thus, Exodus 1:11 is evidence against Ramses II as Pharaoh of the Exodus.Das Baz 15:46, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ramses II not the Pharaoh of the Exodus

message: Several people have dated the Thera-Santorin eruption to the time of the Exodus. Thus, theories connecting Ipuwer to either the Exodus or to that great volcanic upheaval are quite congenial and compatible with each other. Das Baz 18:44, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Exodus and Thera-Santorin

message: If the Biblical account of the Exodus is fiction, and Ipuwer is fiction, there could still be a connection between the two. Fiction writers do borrow from each other. But if one of the two is historical, chances are good that the other one also is historical.  Das Baz, aka Erudil 17:37, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Fiction based on Fiction?

message: Again we have large section that seems over-emphasised, especially as it references two writers who wrote almost a century ago. Comments? Dougweller (talk) 16:04, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not exactly. Its prophetic nature is sort of the whole point and purpose of the text. Breasted may be dated, but his work is still highly respected, quoted, and referenced in academic circles. What is sorely missing, however, is the political context of the text. Parkinson (2002) and Simpson (1972) explain it as thus, which I paraphrase in my featured article Ancient Egyptian literature: In Ipuwer, a sage addresses an unnamed king and his attendants, describing the miserable state of the land, which he blames on the king's inability to uphold royal virtues. This can be seen either as a warning to kings or as a legitimization of the current dynasty, contrasting it with the supposedly turbulent period that preceded it. Since this is a Twelfth Dynasty text (although surviving only from a Nineteenth Dynasty copy), the turbulent period described is the First Intermediate Period, which is mentioned in the article, but, again, lacks context.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:45, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok. What we shouldn't have is an attempt to make Breasted more important by harping on this 'Dean of Egyptology' thing. I agree about the lack of context. This article would never pass muster in any scholarly forum. Dougweller (talk) 21:09, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Right. Breasted, although having scholarly credibility, is nonetheless quite dated, so there should be some recent input backing his assertions, preferably from a university press source. I find the enormous focus on the biblical Exodus to be a bit unbecoming for any serious encyclopedia entry on an ancient Egyptian papyrus text.--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:04, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prophetic Theme 

message: I perhaps should have added the tag earlier. The two sections above should show why I think there is a NPOV problem in this article. Dougweller (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, I think the key piece of information here is "The association of the Ipuwer Papyrus with the Exodus as describing the same event is generally rejected by Egyptologists". As Dougweller correctly writes above, how much space is devoted to a certain viewpoint is determined by the "market share" of that viewpoint in the reliable sources. The reliable sources here are egyptologists, and since we happen to have information that the "Exodus" link is not a mainstream idea it places a quite strict upper limit on how much space the exodus link gets in the article. IIRC most historians don't consider the Exodus to be a historical fact at all, which is another factor limiting the space it deserves here. On a practical note, I'd suggest that the Exodus idea would be discussed only in the Exodus chapter, not e.g. the Chronology or Genre chapters. The Exodus chapter should also be reformulated in a shorter form which makes plain that the Ipuwer-Exodus link is rejected by mainstream egyptologists. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 19:21, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV tag

message: For some reason the following information is being censored in violation of NPOV.
"Once the choice was made for the First Intermediate Period reasons were found to date it to the beginning of the period or even to the last years of Pepi II in the Old Kingdom." -- John van Seters, archaeologist, December 1964
"Ipuwer had been understood by earlier scholars to be an attack by Ipuwer on a ruler, probably Pepi II." -- R. J. Williams, professor, 198176.216.196.209 (talk) 23:31, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the New Encyclopaedia Britannica Volume 6, "Ipuwer ... served as a treasury official during the last years of Pepi II Neferkare (reigned c. 2294 - c. 2200 B.C.)."
http://books.google.com/books?id=9IRUAAAAMAAJ&q=%22pepi+ii+neferkare%22+ipuwer&dq=%22pepi+ii+neferkare%22+ipuwer&hl=en&ei=FW11TZ_VC5S2sAOLiPHJBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ 76.216.196.209 (talk) 23:49, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  "H. Frankfort, in an article published in 1926, brought together in support of this interpretation, archaeological evidence for many Syrian related button seals which first appear in Egypt, according to Frankfort, during the Sixth Dynasty about the time of Pepi II .... On the basis of the button seals, he concludes that the value of the Admonitions of Ipuwer (which was thought to refer to the time of Pepi II) as an 'historical document' was established." -- Thomas L. Thompson, historian, 2002
http://books.google.com/books?id=lwrzapZYqFAC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false 76.216.196.209 (talk) 23:52, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

text: Regardless of your personal views and the opinions of Mr. Seters, the fact remains that multiple corroborating sources including Encyclopaedia Britannica refer to the association of the Ipuwer Papyrus with Pepi II Neferkare.  If an academic disagrees with that fact, or a blog agrees with that fact, it is absolutely irrelevant.76.216.196.209 (talk) 00:46, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's hardly irrelevant when academics disagree. You are trying to force one viewpoint on these articles against our NPOV policy. And this is clearly to do with Pepi as a possible Pharaohs in the Hebrew Bible#Pharaoh of the Exodus, for which you are still apparently unable to back without more than a couple of minor websites. Dougweller (talk) 05:57, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Association With Pepi II Neferkare

message: An attempt is being made to exclude the following citation because it associates Pepi II Neferkare with the Ipuwer Papyrus: Rothe, R.D., et al., Pharaonic Inscriptions From the Southern Eastern Desert of Egypt, Eisenbrauns, 2008 http://books.google.com/books?id=L-kijfFNiiMC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
It contains the following quote which is being censored and suppressed in deliberate violation of NPOV, "There are many petroglyphs which depict ostriches and a few that depict giraffes. Butzer (1961) has used relative frequencies of the appearance of these animals in petroglyphs to gauge the changing climate. This evidence fits well with the three OK inscriptions, at least one of which is from the reign of Pepy II, which tell of digging wells (inscriptions DN28, ML01, ML12). While it is possible that these people could be simply pioneering a new route, it seems more likely that the old sources of water were drying up. Additional weight is given to the latter argument by a passage from a document known to Egyptologists as the 'Admonitions of Ipuwer,' which described conditions during the First Intermediate Period."
I would like to include this citation, however forces of censorship wouldn't like to include this for obvious reasons -- too much reality and truth for them to handle!76.216.196.209 (talk) 18:52, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Pepi II Neferkare for problems with above IP. Inaccurate use of sources in one of several problems. --AnnekeBart (talk) 21:44, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Attempt to Exclude Citations In Violation of NPOV

message: Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/838. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and according to fair use may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you.  Diannaa (talk) 12:49, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright problem removed 

message: I see mention of the Thera interpretation, and that it has been combined with the Exodus interpretation, but then I see no further treatment of the Thera interpretation, not even an explanation of what it is, while the Exodus interpretation has its own section. Has something gone missing? Yngvadottir (talk) 16:13, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thera 

message: Some basic info on the subject would be nice. Yes we all know the exodus actually took place, can we get back on topic now?75.82.59.19 (talk) 04:50, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is probably Middle Kingdom Heiroglyphics. Google "Middle Kingdom papyrus" and compare the images. You might be interested in the documentary on Netflix called "Patterns of Evidence: Exodus".  At 1:05:00 it discusses the Ipuwer Papyrus. Lehasa (talk) 20:46, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  What language was the papyrus written in? 

message: Hieratic connoisseurs will recognize that the picture shown is a mirror image of the papyrus, i.e. right and left are interchanged! Will somebody please correct that!--Nfr-Maat (talk) 08:44, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture Mirrored! 

message: Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.gotquestions.org/evidence-ten-plagues.html. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you.  /wiae /tlk 02:59, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright problem removed 

message: "The archaeological evidence does not support the story of the Exodus, and most historians no longer consider it relevant to the story of the emergence of Israel."
''
This sentence is a personal point of view and has NOTHING to do with the subject "the Ipuwer Papyrus"
Archaeology and the Bible is a big subject  and hotly debated by by the atheist and religious camps. 
This is NOT the place to score anti religious points.
Can we please keep Wikipedia CLEAN, respectful and neutral 
Wikipedia has a bad name of being run by extreme Atheists 
Can we change that?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.145.224.209 (talk) 15:06, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia does not try to be "neutral", we strive for a WP:Neutral point of view. This statement reflects what most academic historians and archaeologists say is the case. It's not a personal point of view. Nor is it one on which religious scholars are united. You can't pitch it as a debate between believers and atheists. Doug Weller talk 17:29, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

text: I have removed part of this sentence, since it is too general. This is not the Historicity of the Bible article, where that sentence would be in place. Please notice that nevertheless, I left part in place, even though it does not mention the Ipuwer Papyrus specifically, although it is my opinion that even that statement is too general for this article, and should really be removed. Debresser (talk) 10:46, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gratuitous   

message: "the multitude of ways in which Ipuwer differs from Exodus, such as that its Asiatics are arriving in Egypt rather than leaving"</br>
Isn't it awkward? "its", "Asiatics"... I was so confused at first that I thought that it was meant "it's the Asiatics who are arriving", but it would be even worse, right?--Adûnâi (talk) 03:07, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questions about wording 

message: Might it be worth providing some expansion of the parallels between Exodus and the parchment? They are certainly more extensive than a possible connection to the plague of blood. 
IPUWER 2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
2:10 The river is blood.
2:10 Men shrink from tasting – human beings, and thirst after water
3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin.
EXODUS 7:20 …all the waters of the river were turned to blood.
7:21 …there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt …and the river stank.
7:24 And all the Egyptians dug around the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.
IPUWER 2:10 Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.
10:3-6 Lower Egypt weeps… The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong [by right] wheat and barley, geese and fish
6:3 Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.
5:12 Forsooth, that has perished which was yesterday seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax.
EXODUS 9:23-24 …and the fire ran along the ground… there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous.
9:25 …and the hail smote every herb of the field, and broke every tree of the field.
9:31-32 …and the flax and the barley was smitten; for the barley was in season, and flax was ripe. But the wheat and the rye were not smitten; for they were not grown up.
10:15 …there remained no green things in the trees, or in the herbs of the fields, through all the land of Egypt.
IPUWER 5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan…
9:2-3 Behold, cattle are left to stray, and there is none to gather them together.
EXODUS 9:3 …the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field… and there shall be a very grievous sickness.
9:19 …gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field…
9:21 And he that did not fear the word of the Lord left his servants and cattle in the field.
IPUWER 9:11 The land is without light.
EXODUS 10:22,23 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days: They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.
IPUWER 4:3 (5:6) Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls.
6:12 Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets.
6:3 The prison is ruined.
2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere.
3:14 It is groaning throughout the land, mingled with lamentations
EXODUS 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive that was in the prison.
12:30 …there was not a house where there was not one dead.
12:30 …there was a great cry in Egypt.
IPUWER 7:1 Behold, the fire has mounted up on high. Its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land.
EXODUS 13:21 … by day in a pillar of cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night.
IPUWER 3:2 Gold and lapis lazuli, silver and malachite, carnelian and bronze… are fastened on the neck of female slaves.
EXODUS 12:35-36 …and they requested from the Egyptians, silver and gold articles and clothing. And God made the Egyptians favor them and they granted their request. [The Israelites] thus drained Egypt of its wealth. Incredible density (talk) 22:25, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Fascinating. Unfortunately, this is also original research. Lone-078 (talk) 12:57, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exodus parallels