Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Hawaii-related articles

message: There is currently some disagreement over how articles on Hawaiian royals should be named. Perhaps we should develop specific conventions on how to title such articles.
For example, a user recently suggested that Victoria Kaiulani be renamed to either Princess Victoria Kaiulani, Victoria Kaiulani, Princess of Hawaii, or Princess Victoria Kaiulani of Hawaii. I have no objection to any of the three names at this present moment (except maybe that the "of Hawaii" part is redundant, as Hawaiian names are unique to Hawaii unlike European names), as long as there is a set standard and that all articles about Hawaiian royals follow the same conventions.
Further reference
*Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) — 
Any input? Mahalo nui loa, 青い(Aoi) 04:12, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: *I have seen both the first two used in hawaii so I am somewhat unsure of the correct choice. However, I do find the "of hawaii" to be redundant. My vote, tentatively, is for The first form with adequate documentation That they are hawaiian nobility. Avriette 05:27, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
Concluded from the earlier discussions, the consensus now exists that Hawaiian royalty does not need "of Hawaii", basically the first name of the person suffices. This seems a good convention. I agree to it. 217.140.193.123 09:20, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree that the first two are acceptable (i.e., no "of Hawaii"), although my preference would be for "Princess Kaiulani" as I consider that the most widely used locally and probably beyond (my wife teaches at Kaiulani School), but I am surprised to "hear" that it is not common practice to include the title when refering to European royalty.  Outside of their own country, no one would really know who you were talking about if you just said "Philip did such and such today..."; the royalty title is very much a part of the distinction of the person. And, it would seem if you are going for consistency, the Princess should really be under Princess Kaiulani Cleghorn - Marshman 17:58, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with that. I never really thought about it until now, but it does seem that everyone refers to the princess as "Princess Kaiulani," i.e. the Princess Kaiulani Hotel. 青い(Aoi) 04:11, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion, "Princess" could be left from the heading. However, if all you feel that it is absolutely necessary, I will acquiesce. (If naming so, then there will be a bunch of articles which begin "Prince/ss" and clog into a bunch in an alphabetical list - in encyclopedias, articles should be found by not knowing whether the subject was a princess or an oyster or whatever - such clogging to "princess" works thus a little against the encyclopedic purpose)re Philip, as he has a peerage title, Duke of Edinburgh, it is used here in the heading - "Philip, Duke of Edinburgh". 217.140.193.123 07:28, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I would suggest to either use the form Title+name+Hawaii, or Title+name. There are plenty of other precedents for such a format. Gryffindor 17:03, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Names of royalty

message: ====Reopening the Debate====
I'd like to reopen discussion of the use of the 'okina in Hawai'ian language words and in, crucially, words derived from the Hawai'ian language, like...the word "Hawai'ian". I don't understand some English speakers' antipathy to this sound...in English, we pronounce it before every single word that supposedly begins with a vowel, like "it" and "every"; these words actually don't begin with a vowel, they begin with the exact same glottal stop sound that's used in the Hawai'ian language. In English, we even use the glottal stop within morphemes when we say something like "uh oh". Why do we instinctively use this sound in our own language, but balk at using it in words derived from another language? Sure it's phonemic in the Hawai'ian language but not in English; however, we still do say it all the time.
====University of Hawai'i Manual of Style====
According to this Wikipedia style guide, the adjective "Hawai'ian" should not have a 'okina in it because it has an English suffixed attached. But the English suffix is attached to a Hawai'ian word. Even the Wikipedia style manual tolerates the use of the 'okina in the word "Hawai'i", and indeed the use of the 'okina in the root noun Hawai'i is advocated by the University of Hawai'i's Manual of Style. Is it not illogically incongruous to use the 'okina in the root noun, but delete it in adjective form, especially when we have the exact same sound in the English language, and the use of the symbol is being advocated by the relevant state's leading institution of higher education? Does it not look silly to allow "Hawai'i" in a text, but then soon thereafter require the use only of "Hawaiian"? Allowing immediately obvious inconsistencies should not be a desirable outcome from a manual of style.
Even the University of Hawai'i's Manual of Style, though, uses "Hawaiian" and not "Hawai'ian". However, other parts of the academic community use "Hawai'ian" even if the subject is not connected with indigenous Hawai'ian culture or language. There's a "Hawai'ian Volcanic Eruption", "Hawai'ian waters", and "Hawai'ian" beach sands. On the other hand, there is the "Hawaiian Journal of Law and Politics", and the "Hawaiian Journal of History". There's a CV of a scholar who calls this the "Hawai'ian Journal of History", though. There are plenty of non-academic sites that use the word "Hawai'ian". One Hawai'ian science site apologizes for not consistently using the 'okina when it should be used.
====Grammar====
The rule that a foreign-language word loses its foreign-looking characteristics when an English grammatical suffix is attached, but can keep those foreign-looking characteristics when used unmodified in English, is new to me. I'm wondering: Are those who advocate for such a rule able to provide examples of other situations in which this rule manifests itself? Why is it necessary that the English adjectival suffix "-an" requires the 'okina to disappear from a root word, like "Hawai'i", to which it's attached? Let's expand this unusual rule to another situation: that of the Coast Tsimshian language lects. One specific lect is called "Sm'álgyax" - This word has both a phonemic glottal stop represented by the same sort of symbol as that used for the Hawai'ian language, and it has an accent mark on a vowel. So, when writing in English about this tribe and their language, which should we write?
the Sm'álgyax / Sm'álgyaxian lect                     	the Smálgyax / Smálgyaxian lect                     	the Sm'algyax / Sm'algyaxian lect                     	the Smalgyax / Smalgyaxian lect
a Sm'álgyax / Sm'álgyaxian woman                      	a Smálgyax / Smálgyaxian woman                      	a Sm'algyax / Sm'algyaxian woman                      	a Smalgyax / Smalgyaxian woman
the Sm'álgyax / Sm'álgyaxian Journal of Bioinformatics	the Smálgyax / Smálgyaxian Journal of Bioinformatics	the Sm'algyax / Sm'algyaxian Journal of Bioinformatics	the Smalgyax / Smalgyaxian Journal of Bioinformatics
So, which variants should we use in English? Why not keep it simple, not change foreign language words whether as standalone words or as roots, and just add English suffixes, or allow the opposite, not allowing any diacritics or "strange" uses of apostrophes and other symbols, and using only letters that are standardly used for the English language itself? Either option should be fine - The only thing that should be required is consistency. Or maybe those who advocate allowing "Hawai'i" but not allowing "Hawai'ian" should write to the Sm'álgyax people, telling them that the proper use of this word should be "Sm'álgyax" when used alone, but only "Smalgyaxan" or "Smalgyaxian" when an English suffix is added.
====Inconsistent Use in Early Hawai'ian Language Publications====
Some commentators cite the fact that some early writers in the Hawai'ian language didn't use the 'okina. In the late 19th century, the standardization of many European languages' writing systems was a new trend, and even today the writing systems of many world languages are still in disarray. Knowledge of phonetics, phonology, and about how to design the most appropriate alphabet for a language was very much in its infancy, if not pre-infancy, in the 19th century and early 20th century. Furthermore, many Westerners instinctively modeled their linguistic work for other languages upon European languages, which don't have phonemic glottal stops like the Hawai'ian language and an independent alphabetic letter for them, and unfortunately probably some non-Westerners may have wanted to model their alphabet on those of European languages, which again don't use a separate character for the glottal stop sound. Finally, printers innovated all sorts of quirks such as putting two spaces after a period, because putting one space caused the printing mechanism to hit too hard and break the typesetting-piece used for the period. Can you imagine laboriously type-setting, and at the same time coming to the printing process with a bias towards European languages and a primitive understanding of phonetics, phonology, and proper alphabets? Of course there was confusion. Of course you would save time and energy by just deleting what would seem to be a superfluous flourish. The fact that some early writing in the Hawai'ian language did not use the 'okina properly if at all should not at all be treated as a rational precedent, let alone a dispositive factor.
====Conclusion====
Right now Wikipedia's manual of style allows the obvious inconsistency of "Hawai'i" followed by "Hawaiian". There is no good reason to forbid the use of "Hawai'ian". There is only one bad reason: to cater to the continuance of a trend (omitting the 'okina) that also happens not to be universal. To my mind, the best requirement is consistency: An article can choose to use either Hawaii/Hawaiian or Hawai'i/Hawai'ian, but should not mix these up. Dechrwr (talk) 06:25, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: When the &#699;okina Should be Used

message: Right now Wikipedia's manual of style allows the obvious inconsistency of "Hawai'i" followed by "Hawaiian". There is no good reason to forbid the use of "Hawai'ian". There is only one bad reason: to cater to the continuance of a trend (omitting the 'okina) that also happens not to be universal. To my mind, the best requirement is consistency: An article can choose to use either Hawaii/Hawaiian or Hawai'i/Hawai'ian, but should not mix these up. Dechrwr (talk) 06:25, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Conclusion

message: The 02BB (or whatever it is) character gives bad results in italics, and in the TOC box. By contrast, the LSQUO looks fine in italics, and in the TOC box, as well as in article text. It also looks fine in the edit box. Thus, the lsquo, or ‘, is a better symbol for "okina" than the 02BB.
Let's see if I can demonstrate this. Check out the following two lines.
#a‘a --- e‘e --- i‘i --- o‘o --- u‘u
#aa --- ee --- ii --- oo --- uu
Line 1 has LSQUO, line 2 has 02BB. As everyone can see, LSQUO is correctly centered, midway between its neighboring characters. By contrast, 02BB is too far to the right, creating an incorrect gap between the preceding character and 02BB. Even worse, it crowds so close to the following character that it forms a ligature with it.
Examples with uppercase vowels.
#A‘A --- E‘E --- I‘I --- O‘O --- U‘U
#AA --- EE --- II --- OO --- UU
In the TOC box, 02BB appears as a rectangle --- incorrect. By contrast, LSQUO has the correct appearance in the TOC box. To see this, check out the TOC box for the subheading for this section. Clearly, LSQUO gives better results in more contexts than 02BB. So LSQUO should be used for the okina symbol. Agent X 23:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: LSQUO, ‘, works better than <nowiki>{{okina}}</nowiki>, {{okina}}

message: Formulating a MoS provision: As it seems to me that option 1 receives the overwhelming majority, at least a rough consensus, I already start formulating the resolution:
"Articles of Monarchs of Hawaiian Kingdom have the monarch's Hawaiian reign name as the heading, and the ordinal if necessary for disambiguation. For example, Kamehameha IV, Liliuokalani. The possible christened name is not to be included into the heading, and not any other non-reign name. The titulary (Queen, King) is not used in the heading, nor any style or honorific. The territorial designation ("of Hawaii") is not to be used in the heading since there is no necessity to disambiguate on basis of country. The text of the article follow standards and guidelines for WP biographical articles." 217.140.193.123 22:22, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: some wording

message: Aloha all - I've put a conceptual first stub draft of the MoS up...I sort of envision it looking somewhat like the AP Stylebook, which shows terms, how they should be spelled, and further explanatory notes on usage and background.  Any feedback would be appreciated.  Mahalo!  --KeithH 10:17, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: First draft

message: * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AAvriette&diff=54565084&oldid=54536489
The user in question feels that we should use "as short a name as possible", whenever possible. That would make Peahi, Hawaii just Peahi. Any comments on this? Please note the other examples listed in the diff, including Kihei and Paia, and so on. ... aa:talk 19:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:NC (settlements). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:03, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Names of places 

message: I'm not sure what the words "where appropriate" mean in the following sentence. "Where appropriate, use of the kahakō and okina is preferred in Hawaiian words and names used in articles dealing with Hawaii." Does it simply mean to use the diacritical marks in words that are written with them and not in words that do not employ them? 
In my last edit, I attempted to reorganize and clarify the project page. I did not intend to change the guidance;  if I did do so, it was inadvertent. Walter Siegmund (talk) 18:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes; the intent was that they should basically always be used, but that usage should conform to what's correct. I reworded it, hopefully it's clear now.  KarlM (talk) 15:30, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Kahakos (macrons) should always be used where appropriate, however I don't think the actual okina symbol should be used as most browsers don't support it. perhaps the "`" backtick would be a good replacement.Drew Smith What I've done 05:24, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diacritic usage 

message: Answering my question about the policy regarding the GNIS the U.S. Census Bureau (Geography Division) answered:
:The census designated place (CDP) names in Hawaii do not necessarily match the names of the populated places for three reasons.1) The Census Bureau had a policy in 2000 and earlier censuses that allowed diacritical marks only in Puerto Rico and Guam. This restriction has been rescinded for 2010.2) The names of the CDPs were submitted by officials of the State of Hawaii in 1998 and the names submitted did not include the diacritical marks. We have encouraged state officials to submit the names as they would like them stored for 2010 including any diacritical marks.3) At the time we were collecting CDP information, the U.S. Geological Survey was still in the process of acquiring all the updated names (including diacritical marks) for Hawaii, so we were not able to use the GNIS as a source for the names with diacritical marks. Our names did match the Geographic Names Information System (GNIS) before the updates.For the 2010 census, staff will be comparing the names submitted by state, tribal, and local officials for CDPs and other statistical areas to the GNIS to bring the names into agreement as much as possible.[...]The GNIS is the public database that stores the official names of legal governmental unit areas. These legal areas are submitted by the Census Bureau and shown with a Feature Class equal to Civil. The statistical areas are stored with Feature Class equal to Census.
--ThT (talk) 00:03, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  U.S. Census Bureau and GNIS 

message: I noticed that many Hawaii articles have the European-style date format of "day Month year". I know this is what perhaps a majority of the world uses, and they are allowed by the general date style guideline, but like it or not, the "month day, year" style is used almost exclusively wthin Hawaii, and with most sources I have seen (published in the islands or the mainland). So I would propose recommending to use the "month day, year" style, but avoid mass changing. Any comments? W Nowicki (talk) 18:34, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date format? 

message: There is currently an ongoing discussion about the future of this and others MoS naming style. Please consider the issues raised in the discussion and vote if you wish GnevinAWB (talk) 21:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: MoS naming style

message: It has been proposed this MOS be moved to Wikipedia:Subject style guide . Please comment at the RFC GnevinAWB (talk) 20:54, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC which could affect this MOS

message: Editors may be interested in this RFC, along with the discussion of its implementation:
Should all subsidiary pages of the Manual of Style be made subpages of WP:MOS?
It's big; and it promises huge improvements. Great if everyone can be involved.  NoeticaTea? 00:38, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFC: restructuring of the Manual of Style 

message: Since the MOS states that the title of the article should not include diacritical marks, (MOS:HAWAII#Article_titles), should we suggest a massive article move to an admin? See Ewa Beach and Kapaa as a few of the many examples. --Travis Thurston+ 19:20, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Article titles

message: I am separating this as a subsection to avoid any confusion as we discuss the other topic above...One question or issue that seems to have been buried in this long discussion about the apostrophe and that I feel we haven't been fully addressed. Should we use improper or partial orthography in the title and the body of a article which in all orthographical correctness should utilize? Articles which uses no marks at all like Luau or Kau, Hawaii is okay. I don't oppose not using orthographical marks. I am only against partial use.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:57, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The concern brought up here and at Talk:Pa'u riders is a good example. In cases where the word utilizes both kahakos and okinas (such as Kaʻū or Pāʻū riders or ʻūkēkē) should we be spelling them: a) using okinas but not kahakos (ex. Paʻu) or using kahakos and not okinas (Pāū, this was never suggested by anybody). Both these partial use of orthographical marks distort the meaning of the word in the Hawaiian language per "As with any letter or character, omission of the kahakō or ʻokina in Hawaiian words can change the pronunciation and often alter the meaning of the word in the native Hawaiian language." I have been mainly arguing that we shouldn't use okinas but not kahakos when both should be used. But one thing  Miller and I didn't speak about was the use of kahakos and not okinas when both should be used. This is mainly a title issues since it is relatively rare to find in the body of existing articles. After some thinking on my part and tidying up on the article Kekauōnohi, I see using kahakos and not okinas as wrong and as  illogical as using okinas but not kahako. Both are partial usage of the orthographical which distorts the meaning of the word or name.. Currently a lot of the articles about Hawaiian royalties are under titles with just kahakos and not okinas when both should be used (so not talking about Kalākaua which is spelled right and should remain but Kekūanāoa which should be spelled either Kekūanāoʻa or Kekuanaoa). Many of these are of my own doing in the past actually. Now I feel that if we should be choosing between maintaining complete orthographical correctness or complete disregard in the title and article body, we should either move articles like Kekauōnohi to Kekauonohi (without any orthographical marks) or Kekauʻōnohi (with all the proper orthographical marks). I can support either methods as long as we maintain proper orthographical marks in the body of the article. My problem is partial usage. Again to reiterate the question in summary: should we use improper or partial orthography in the title and the body of articles which in all orthographical correctness should utilize? --KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:57, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: To reiterate my position on this issue from the earlier discussion: no clear bright line can be drawn (on the any-or-none spectrum—no comment yet on partial usage), as past discussions have shown; in the absence of one, the clearest solution is consensus on usage in certain series of articles (for instance, in the naming of the pages for Hawaiian royalty), and then individual discretion on the part of the editor(s). ResMar 02:34, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I see your point. It just. I can see good reasons for either side of the all-or-none spectrum (this is my philosophy in this discussion), one which we seem to have been using here all along. But I see the partial usage as just incorrect and distorting of the meaning of the word. Since I made a lot of the moves myself on the articles relating to Hawaiian royalty to version with kahakos and no okinas and thus introducing the errors of partial usage in the titles, I don't think it is really consensus in relation to the Hawaiian royalty titles, just people have been not paying attention to what I have been doing and letting it slide by. Now that I see the errors of my actions, I think we should like with the apostrophe encourage the all-or-none options over partial usage.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:45, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

text: I think you should split this discussion up into specific issues, as I'm already getting lost in the inter-threading that's going on: ResMar 02:48, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Partial orthography

message: On #5 we also need to have some guidance when an article's title differs from the text usage. Should we be consistent with the article's title, or with the orthography? Are there exceptions?--Mark Miller (talk) 17:44, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Base of just what have been done all these years, we don't follow the article titles in cases where we choose the no orthographical route in the titles. Ex. Liliuokalani, Alii and virtually most of all Hawaiian place names such as Kau, Hawaii. Unless the term is Americanized such as ukulele and luau, which only shows the correct orthography in the beginning as a Hawaiian translation. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:08, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: These seem to be local consensus of editors and appear to be the exception and not the rule. The reasons why may be purely technical and could change knowing the diacritics ha no technical issue any longer in titles.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:24, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

text: Those titles should probably be changed. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 18:13, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: This section of the MOS states that "...articles that have not used the diacritics in the title, will list the native language spelling as an alternative, alongside the title spelling in the lede and then repeat the alternative spelling consistently throughout the running text in the body of the article."  What is the rationale for having one spelling for the article title and another in the article text?  See Hawaii County, Hawaii for an example of this in practice.  —  AjaxSmack  20:23, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a holdover from when article title could not be written with the okina except in the article body and the title with the okinas usually impedes searchability of the topic for people using names found in older sources. Generally, moving to article titles with okina especially place names meet a lot of opposition from people outside this project and it is a move that is blacklisted and only administrator can perform them. Unless I am mistaken, this does not violate any overarching MOS policy, does it? See Liliuokalani for example of this in practice that has been there since a very long time.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:35, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know of any policy issues but it's an interesting question.  The WP:ARTCON guideline and numerous other talk page discussions have concluded that consistency is ideal.  However, I've seen cases in other articles where usage is different.  Ngo Dinh Diem is titled without diacritics but the article uses them for his name throughout (Ho Chi Minh, on the other hand does not).  Maybe I'll query a policy talk page about it.  But why not just move the title if there is policy basis for use of the diacritics and why use them throughout the text if not?  —  AjaxSmack  19:53, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Your Vietnamese example is a really great example of this because both are technically non-English foreign symbols not found on a normal keyboard. I think the rational has been because it is easier to search for a title especially on Google without diacritics and also easier to type out on the url. Normal keyboards can't replicate these symbols without copying and pasting. The rationale I see in these case is that you want more readers to reach the page but you still want to respect the language and follow proper orthography in the articles. The problem isn't easily solvable at the moment because you have groups against moving titles to diacritics (but don't care about inconsistencies in the body of the article) and another group that are fervent about usage of diacritics in the body  (but don't care about inconsistencies in the article title), so you have articles stuck in between in limbo. One of my recent articles Zorobabela Kaʻauwai was moved back and forth between use of diacritics in the title or not twice; I am of the camp that only cares about the accurate diacritics in the body so the title didn't matter as much to me, so I was fine with either one, but I was annoyed by the inconsistency that it created as I first create the article title with diacritics than it got move, so I create other biographies of family members without diacritics only to have a later admin move the original back and then another user  request a title change back to no diacritics, only to have that request fail.   --KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:39, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

text: I would support this proposal. 青い(Aoi) (talk) 03:54, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Different spellings in title and article text 

message: It appears that both Hawaii County, HawaiiCounty of Hawaii, 2009-2010 County of Hawaii Charter Commission. "Proposal #7: Grammar, Spelling, and Formatting - Housekeeping." Full Text Amended Charter Language. Page 15 (PDF page 19).State of Hawaii, Office of Elections. Results, General Election, November 2, 2010, Certified Reports, County of Hawaii Summary.County of Hawaii. County Charter, 2016. and Kauai County, HawaiiCounty of Kauai, Kauai Charter Review Commission. Explanation of County Charter Amendments Proposed by the Charter Review Commission for the 2016 General Election.State of Hawaii, Office of Elections. Results, General Election, November 8, 2016, Certified Reports, County of Kauai Summary.County of Kauai. The Charter of the County of Kauai (2016 Codified Version). have formally amended their county charters to add the okina to their respective corporate names in the past decade. I understand that there has already been extensive discussion about geographic names; however, both of these charter amendments were voted on after most of the discussion took place. Both county articles often use the okina within the body of the article in the counties' names, but not in the article titles themselves. It does look like there are redirects from Hawaii County, Hawaii and Kauai County, Hawaii. Should the articles be switched so that the ones with the okina are the lead articles, and the ones without are redirects, in order to conform with the formal corporate names of the counties? Mac3387 (talk) 02:52, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support this proposal. 青い(Aoi) (talk) 03:54, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: {{okina}}Okina in county article titles

message: I wanted to ask if Wikipedia: Manual of Style/Hawaii-related articles could include a section on using the article "an" before the word "ukulele", at least for Hawaii-related articles? Otherwise, we have these situations where bots come in and change everything to "a ukulele" even where it seems highly inappropriate. Cielquiparle (talk) 13:04, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation of ukulele (article "an" before "ukulele") 

message: There's some very good, in-depth, ongoing discussion at Talk:2023 Hawaii wildfires § Use of Hawaiian symbols in names that I hope will lead to some wiki-wide changes & policies being updated, which are overdue and sorely needed – especially given that this MOS doesn't seem like it's often followed, unfortunately, or that many people are aware of it in the first place! Anyone watching this talk page would probably be interested in reading through the conversation that's happening and/or getting involved. –Fpmfpm (talk) 13:44, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion about the use of Hawaiian diacritical marks at [[Talk:2023 Hawaii wildfires#Use of Hawaiian symbols in names]]