Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List

message: This list is presented as a guide to honest editors. Many of these issues have been discussed at some length but attempts to address them have been met with edit wars. The article as it presently stands is based almost entirely on the output of the John Train Salon, a grouping of operatives funded in particular by Richard Mellon Scaife, otherwise known for his sponsorship of the slander factory against U.S. President Bill Clinton. The two individuals who made a career of sorts out of attacking LaRouche are Dennis King and Chip Berlet.
I am working to update this, and make it reflect the fact that the LaRouche article has been split into three overlapping sections. Much of the same POV speculation and spin-doctoring by Adam and Andy also infects LaRouche-related articles such as National Caucus of Labor Committees, Schiller Institute, Helga Zepp-LaRouche, and Synarchism.
I have moved the closed issues to archive1.--Herschelkrustofsky 13:20, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

message: * "The group also adopted a position against abortion and ran a front group named "Club of Life" on the issue." The Club of Life was formed in response to attacks on LaRouche by the anti-abortion movement (which is inconvenient for Andy, who is attempting to lump LaRouche in with various "right-wing" causes). LaRouche has consistently refused to take a stand one way or the other on abortion (Andy, your memory must be failing, because you yourself put a link on one of the archived talk pages to a video clip from the Democratic Convention, where an enraged Baby Boomer was demanding that a member of the LaRouche Youth Movement take a position pro or con on abortion, which the youngster was refusing to do.) LaRouche has, however, attacked the philosophy of Malthusianism, and has attacked the right-to-lifers for their hypocritical refusal to fight euthanasia and the genocide being carried out against the Third World. The fact is, Andy, LaRouche has never sucked up to anyone in an attempt to gain support; he has never modified his own views in an attempt to gain support; he didn't modify his views to stay out of jail, although he was given that opportunity; your POV is all wet.
:See  Weed Harper 14:59, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Club of Life

message: * "During the 1970s LaRouche steered the NCLC away from the left and towards the extreme right, while retaining some of the slogans and attitudes of the left (as did the founder of fascism, the ex-Socialist Benito Mussolini, and many others since)."
The business about steering toward the extreme right is a myth, and even if it were not, trying to make a comparison to Mussolini would be propagandistic innuendo. -- Herschel
:This does seem to be POV, especially the part about Mussolini, which seems to be in there to "prove" that LaRouche is a right winger, rather than to provide information. Certainly connections between NCLC and various far right groups (and also with the Reagan administration) can be discussed, since that is pretty well documented. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is a fair observation. LaRouche did swing from the extreme left to the right.
How so? What policies did he change? --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: Well, he abandoned Marxism for one and moved towards some sort of amalgam of 19th century philosophers. AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: The attribution has been removed. --Herschelkrustofsky 13:20, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Steered to the right 

message: * "Although the expression "Eurasian Land-Bridge," for example, has been used to refer to the proposed Asian Highway, there is no evidence that LaRouche has ever had anything to do with this project."
Deception -- the Landbrige and Asian Highway are not the same thing, nor has anyone outside of Adam asserted that they were -- combined with deliberate fallacy of composition. -- Herschel
:You have yet to provide any independent evidence that the "Eurasian Land-Bridge" as you describe it exists. As I said earlier (see section on this page titled "the Land Bridge") all the articles you cite either do not mention the land bridge at all or cite LaRouche as their source. Despite the fact that you've failed to respond to my comments about the articles you repeat your dubious assertions. 
::The assertion that the "Asian Highway" is also called the "Eurasian Land-bridge" is yours, not mine. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You have yet to reply to the points I maike in the "Land-Bridge" section of this page. I have yet to see any evidence outside of the LaRouche movement that this project exists. However, you and the LaRouchites claim that the "Eurasian Land-Bridge" is nicknamed the "New Silk Road" which happens to be the nickname of the "Asian Highway" as it turns out. AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Land bridge 

message: As of 07:01, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Partial List of false and downright bizarre assertions in the present version

message: Updated as of August 1 --Herschelkrustofsky 22:44, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. When necessary, I can be called on to protect the page whenever I'm online, as I haven't been an editor of the article. 172 04:12, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Version 3.0

message: My copy of Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary defines propaganda as "the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person." The deliberations on the Talk:Lyndon LaRouche pages, in conjunction with Adam's admission on the Arbitration Evidence Page ("It is of course true that I and others editing here are hostile to LaRouche."), leave little doubt that what we have here is a lynch mob of sorts, editing at cross-purposes with Wikipedia policy as stated. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:04, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Propaganda

message: * "In NCLC publications during the 1970s the Jews were accused of running the slave trade, controlling organized crime and the drug trade." LaRouche has never accused "the Jews", nor any other ethnic or religious group, of running orcontrolling anything. He has accused Jewish-surnamed individuals such as Meyer Lansky with trafficking in narcotics, just as he has accused non-Jewish-surnamed individuals.
* "LaRouche also claimed that the "Zionist lobby" controlled the U.S. government and the United Nations." Utterly false. LaRouche has accused the "Zionist lobby", by which is meant principally AIPAC and allied organizations, of pursuing a policy that is harmful to both Israel and the U.S. He has never asserted that they control the U.S. government, let alone the United Nations, which has often passed resolutions that displease AIPAC.
* "In 1978 LaRouche described the Holocaust as mostly "mythical," and his German second wife, Helga Zepp-LaRouche, dismissed it as a "swindle." These references are sourced in Dennis King's book Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism." They are not "sourced" unless quoted; if King had direct quotes, I am quite certain he would have included them, instead of asking us to accept his characterizations.
* "In 1981 LaRouche said that "only" 1.5 million Jews died during World War II, and that their deaths were not the result of a deliberate campaign of extermination by the Nazis." Provide a quote, or delete.
* "There is even a word of praise for Walther Rathenau, an archetypal Jewish business figure of the kind so savagely denounced by LaRouche throughout his career." Innuendo: provide an example of a "Jewish business figure" who was "savagely denounced by LaRouche." 
* "He explicity states that "Yes, Hitler killed millions of Jews," a direct repudiation of his 1981 statement that only 1.5 million died and those not as a result of a deliberate plan of extermination." Fallacy of composition; LaRouche cannot "directly repudiate" something that he did not say. 
* "It also operates more sophisticated telemarketing groups, soliciting donations by phone, usually under the guise of various patriotic front organisations to conceal the real source of the phone calls." Bullshit, if you'll pardon my French.
* "The funds thus raised were then directed into a maze of dummy companies so as to avoid both taxation and attempts to recover the 'loans.'" Attempts to recover the loans were blocked by one source only: the U.S. government trustees that took over the companies, after the government-imposed involuntary bankruptcy (see significant omissions from the current version).
* "One of the most damning aspects of the trial was the revelation of LaRouche's personal corruption. While lenders were told that LaRouche had no money to repay their loans, he in fact spent US$4.2 million on real estate in Virginia and on "improvements" to his 200-acre Leesburg estate. These included a swimming pool and horse riding ring." 
Each one of these inventions or propagandistic insinuations constitutes a violation of Wikipedia policy; (see Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not). --Herschelkrustofsky 21:20, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
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