Talk:Colin Fry

message: This page is obviously a skeptics view and is defamatory. The only people I have ever come across who are cold readers are skeptics like Derren Browne who try and prove psychics to be fake. Whilst there is so much evidence to support paranormal, dating back over thousands of years, it seems the people who cannot accept this are in some kind on denial. I really don't know how you skeptics manage to have kept breathing so long as you can't see air but its there!   —Preceding unsigned comment added by YinYangChing (talk • contribs) 12:47, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: Categories have been changed in accordance with the recent Arbitration on the paranormal, specifically 6a) Adequate framing, and Cultural artefacts. Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 22:20, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Category change

message: I seem to have screwed up the references at the bottom, and im unsure how to correct it. I'm great with computers.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Macromonkey (talk • contribs) 20:16, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be because you deleted named references which are being used elsewhere in the article. Fixed. - Eldereft (cont.) 20:58, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  References messed up 

message: This user has a strong spiritualist POV, he/she moans above about sceptical sources that are supposedly biased but the only source this user added to the article was Colin Fry's own biography, this is not a reliable source. This user deliberately deleted any negative secondary sources that discuss Fry. This is unacceptable and against Wikipedia policy. Please read up on fringe views and weight on Wikipedia. There are numerous sources that describe Fry as a cold reader, and committing fraud in the trumpet incident. JuliaHunter (talk) 04:30, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edit is a sceptic's point of view version I have reverted to my version which is factual and unbiased. It includes both positive and negative information about Colin Fry. It includes the Trumpet Incident. Please refrain from opinionated content.C3MC2 (talk) 11:01, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  My edit was an agreed compromise version. It is NOT the purpose of a wiki article to prove or disprove mediumship. Allowing a clearly pro sceptic slanted article is not an acceptable outcome and damages the credibility of wiki and this article.C3MC2 (talk) 13:17, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure who agreed to that version, but it states supernatural phenomenon as having occurred in wiki voice. That is not acceptable. You may make a case for removing the sentence about cold reading being his MO from the lead, but you may not write an article that credulously describes supernatural phenomenon. That runs contrary to WP:NPOV, WP:FRINGE and WP:VNT. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 13:24, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  The pro sceptic version is clearly not acceptable and should NOT remain.C3MC2 (talk) 13:31, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are edit warring to enforce your preferred version. You are also apparently alone in preferring this version. If you do not cease edit warring and use discussion to make your case, you will be reported. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 13:32, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are damaging the credibility of Wikipedia by supporting content that is clearly an ideological attack on a medium by a skeptical point of view.C3MC2 (talk) 17:11, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Skepticism is not an ideology in that it does not have any doctrinal underpinnings. Supernatural claims cease to be considered supernatural once they have been demonstrated objectively to be true, and as such, there is no bias inherent in skepticism towards the supernatural. I have made the attempt to compromise above, however you continue to violate the 3 revert rule in order to push your own ideology on the article. That is unacceptable, as it not only violates a number of WP policies and guidelines concerning content, but it violates WP policy concerning behavior. As I already notified you on your talk page, you have been reported for your behavior. An admin will come along presently and decide what to do with you. Until then, any further reverts you make will be included in that report. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 18:01, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  C3MC2, Wikipedia relies on reliable sources, there is no 'pro-sceptic' version, the current article represents mainstream secondary sources (in this case some mainstream newspaper coverage or obituaries). I am afraid sourcing 90% of an article to Fry's own biography is unacceptable, it reads strongly biased. Old mediums from the nineteenth century are very easy to find reliable references for, unfortunately Fry being a more recent medium, references are scarce. There are no academic books or journals that discuss his mediumship. I can't find a single reliable academic book on Google Books that discusses his mediumship, and nothing on JSTOR or from my personal library. So there is not much more we can do right now apart from use the obituaries. Take care. JuliaHunter (talk) 21:15, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am a sceptic myself and someone not in favour of "mediums" at all, but the latest version is undoubtedly pro-sceptic and not speaking in a neutral, factual voice. "His illusions of paranormal capabilities were sustained using basic cold reading techniques" and "The presented entertainment were [sic] based on basic cold reading techniques" are not neutral, unbiased statements. They are loaded statements that he was a fraud when the cited references do not prove this was the case, however likely it may have been. The Telegraph reference states, unsourced, that "Sceptics countered that Fry’s main talent lay in basic “cold reading” techniques" - hardly a definitive statement that he was undeniably a cold reader - something that would be necessary to make statements like this. The obliteration of all of C3MC2's edits also seems overkill - yes, I agree that it was too in-depth and took too liberally from Fry's biography, but information has been removed that would be allowed, even encouraged, in any other Wikipedia article. For example, the information "[Fry was born at] Cuckfield Hospital near Haywards Heath, West Sussex, England where he grew up. His parents were Arthur Frederick Fry and Margaret Briggs." Are we disallowing information like this sourced from biographies, or is Colin Fry a special case and every piece of information seen as inherently untrustworthy? Lythalicious (talk) 11:24, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  With respect, I think you are misreading this. It isn't about being perfectly neutral or giving equal validity to mediumship. The line "We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit this information where including it would unduly legitimize it, and otherwise include and describe these ideas in their proper context with respect to established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world" seems to me wholly at odds with what is written in the article. In stating without any qualification whatsoever that 'Fry created the illusion of paranormal capabilities using cold reading' - despite there being no cited evidence for this - the article is taking a stand on the issue. It is outright saying that he was a fraud. It's not saying "Critics assert that his paranormal capabilities were sustained using basic cold reading techniques", it's saying that they 100%, unquestionably were, despite there being not citations that back these assertions up. Even though I believe it's the case that Fry was a cold reader and had no paranormal abilities whatsoever, I don't think it's in the least bit fair to phrase it this way due to the inherently unprovable nature of the issue. You can say without qualification that a pseuoscience like homeopathy doesn't work because it can be tested and has been tested; we can only strongly suppose that mediums like Fry rely on cold reading and demonstrate how what he did was possible using these techniques. I was extremely against the inclusion of testimony from Fry's clients "Gail" because it wasn't a valid or legitimate evidential counterbalance to the actual facts, but this stating of "facts" calling Fry a charlatan without citation that concretely backs them up is too far, even though I firmly believe he was.Lythalicious (talk) 14:37, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  And this does not address the wholesale removal of C3MC2's edits; the good with the bad. They have obviously spent a lot of time doing their best to build out the article - even if the end result wasn't perfect - and some of that research is, I think, worthy of inclusion by any measure. To delete everything seems an unnecessary kick in the teeth.Lythalicious (talk) 14:42, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits by C3MC2

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thread_title:  External links modified