Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues

message: 13. "In NCLC publications during the 1970s the Jews were accused of running the slave trade, controlling organized crime and the drug trade."
LaRouche has never accused "the Jews", nor any other ethnic or religious group, of running orcontrolling anything. He has accused Jewish-surnamed individuals such as Meyer Lansky with trafficking in narcotics, just as he has accused non-Jewish-surnamed individuals. He has never characterized "the Jews", or any other ethnic group, as controlling anything.--Herschelkrustofsky 20:15, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It's certainly documentable. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the evidence is against you on this Hershell
Great. Cite some. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jews and the slave trade 

message: : (added to article: In 1978 LaRouche described the Holocaust as mostly "mythical," and his German second wife, Helga Zepp-LaRouche, dismissed it as a "swindle." These references are sourced in Dennis King's book Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism. In 1981 LaRouche said that "only" 1.5 million Jews died during World War II, and that their deaths were not the result of a deliberate campaign of extermination by the Nazis. This statement is also sourced by Dennis King. In January 1981 LaRouche's New Solidarity International Press Service issued a statement titled "LaRouche Reaffirms '1.5 millions' Analysis")
Is Dennis King's book "Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism" the only source for the holocaust denial charges? Does LaRouche admit to having made those statements? If it is, or if he does not, we should change the emphasis regarding them. Sam [Spade] 16:45, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Adam did not volunteer the fact that he drew his entire article from the King book. He admitted it when I called him on it. And how did I know? Because the King book is indeed the sole published source for some of the fabulous inventions that Adam now seeks to foist upon the unsuspecting Wikipedia readership. --Herschelkrustofsky 01:00, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: what I was getting at is that these are just the sort of statements used to smear a person, and thus must be treated delicately in case there is any dubious nature to the sourcing. Sam [Spade] 17:44, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Sam: academic procedure 101: I have provided a citation for the statement from a published source. If you think the citation is bogus, the onus is now on you to demonstrate that (eg, from an independently published refutation - LaRouche denials won't suffice). Otherwise the citation stands. Adam 23:55, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: --Herschelkrustofsky 06:55, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: Source should be cited for this, I agree. john k 03:35, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I will check this. If I can't find a quote to verify it, I will delete it. Adam 04:03, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: I did check it, and found that King had in fact cited a source, contrary to Krusty's assertion that he had not. The source is a LaRouche press release, as noted in the article. If anyone wants to allege that the citation is bogus, it is up to them to prove it. Adam 07:20, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source found 

message: No-one can or should believe anything Krusty says on any subject until he answers the questions put to him four or five times now. These are: Does he or does he not allege that Dennis King forged the two citations about LaRouche's comments on the Holocaust in 1978 and 1981? If so, what is his evidence? Unless he either substantiates this allegation, or retracts it, I am entitled to assume that everything Krusty says is untrue. Adam 07:22, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The Holocaust allegations are just that, allegations; Dennis King provides no quotes, and I'm certain that he would if he could. I can only respond to allegations by a counter-assertion that they are false, and that Dennis King's opinion is not credible. Adam considers it to be a legitimate tactic to assert that there are no "academic authorities" in the English-speaking world (I qualify that, because LaRouche is accorded full respect in other parts of the world, such as at the Russian Academy of Sciences and the Zayed Centre. Adam may rail against both institutions, but they are nonetheless institutions) that vouch for LaRouche, so I think that it is fair to add that the same is true for Dennis King. Outside of his sponsors (see above), no one recognizes King as anything other than a piece of sleazy wreckage from the drug culture. --Herschelkrustofsky 12:12, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: All King is doing is asserting that documents exist, and asking us to accept his characterizations of what they say. And I am certainly entitled to raise the issue of King's credibility. Adam has been hyperventilating for 2 weeks about LaRouche's. --Herschelkrustofsky 20:53, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Answer the question! 

message: Does Krusty allege that Dennis King forged the two citations about LaRouche's comments on the Holocaust in 1978 and 1981, or does he not? If so, what is his evidence? We are all still waiting for the answer to this simple question.
:It were difficult to discuss whether King forged anything, because he neither produces, nor quotes, any such document. As I have pointed out before, in a dozen or so answers to your posts, the "citations" in your article amount to the following: a statement from anonymous sources characterizing LaRouche's views at the time; an assertion by King that a press release exists, which King does not quote, but rather offers his own characterization; and a reference to an (also not quoted) article, which sounds like a distortion of an editorial I recall in the 1978 "Zionism is not Judaism" issue of the Campaigner. This is a full and complete answer to your questions. You may pretend it is not, if you like. You may also continue to insist that you are entitled to set the ground rules for this debate, which you are not.  --Herschelkrustofsky 14:26, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The Unanswered Questions

message: Herschelkrustofsky has put forward no real attempt to refute the conclusions I have drawn from the 1978 LaRouche article. He has not disputed that LaRouche was a Holocaust-denier in 1978, and nor can he since it is there in black and white in LaRouche's text. I would be entitled on the basis of that alone to conclude that LaRouche was an anti-Semite, since Holocaust denial is always motivated by anti-Semitism. His responses to my later commentary on LaRouche's anti-Semitism are feeble and irrelevant. He does not contest my central point that LaRouche uses "Zionist" as a synonym for "Jew" and that his fulminations against Zionism are therefore evidence of LaRouche's anti-Semitism.
As you point out, the final sentence of LaRouche's article is: "You cannot be a Zionist and also a Jew." Your central point, that LaRouche uses "Zionist" as a synonym for "Jew", falls under that category which I, rather politely, called "logical contortionism." --Herschelkrustofsky 06:53, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Herschelkrustofsky's surrender? Not likely