Talk:New Kadampa Tradition/Archive 6

message: Dear Marpa, thank you for kind request and pity. I am well.
Regarding of some points you addressed to me:
*Since then I have done some research to understand why you put so much effort into this article and in particular why you're trying so hard to present and interpret the information about the NKT in such a negative way.
If you had written me an email as other WP-editors have done  - like User:Robertect or User:Patrick (both NKT) -  you would have known my identity without research quite easily. Regarding my motivation which you tried to find out, I said it many times: I wish to have proper information on NKT at WP and I started to work for this after NKT started at WP to spread false and contorted information. The main point why I did this is: I wish for Buddhist newcomers to get well informed not misinformed. That’s all.
Regarding “present and interpret the information about the NKT in such a negative way” what is negative for you? If an information is negative, where is the negativity? Is the “negativity” in the information, the fact the information represents or the feeling which arises when you read the information? For instance when somebody is killed, what is negative: the information of somebody is killed, the deed of the killing of a person or the feeling which arise to a close person of the victim?
I feel the information not negative, I feel them helpful. But some actions they present are negative for me as a Buddhist. My feelings towards the information are more “astonishing”.  If I sum they all up I understand NKT and their followers. Maybe it depends on once own interests and understanding when one is labeling “negative” or "positive" to something.
* you don't seem to have many fond memories of that time which is a shame :-) This means you are emotionally involved in this subject which is not a good basis for writing a neutral article on the NKT.
Maybe you are a little bit fast in your conclusions: I remember the good things I experienced in NKT well and do not deny them. But I did not appear here for adding more “positive news” about NKT, there were enough established yet (and deleted by other WP editors before me), I appeared to stop spinning on the facts. “positive news” about NKT you find everywhere in the internet by NKT. And I am happy if they are presented in the article. But this is to easy; the article is not about “positive” or “negative” it is about facts. The facts are just as they are. And in all the edits I gave you’ll find it hard to find an error regarding the facts. Maybe that’s why you change from the factual level to the personal level, instead of correcting or balancing the facts? Before I got active I had more than four years to solve my emotionally involvement in this subject. So don’t worry too much about it. If the facts are not presented in a neutral manner everyone can correct this and this has been done many times and will go on. This is the nice thing WP offers: all help improving the article is welcomed.
* You are Tenzin Peljor, a German buddhist monk who received ordination from the Dalai Lama in March this year. So, we can say you are a representative of the Dalai Lama. This quite naturally makes you even more biased with respect to the subject of the article (see article for reasons).
Yes this am I. Congratulations. But I was for four years in NKT too. I was a NKT Education Program Coordinator, NKT teacher and a NKT monk. I taught the Foundation Program (FP) in different towns and also studied in the Teacher Training Program (TTP). I visited almost all of the NKT spring and NKT summer festivals in these four years and read most of the books of Geshe Kelsang. I partook also at the three NKT study porgrams. So, we can say I am a representative of the NKT as well. Also I became main responsible for avertisement and PR, so I produced flyers, posters and even bookmarks for Geshe Kelsangs books. So, we can say I am a representative of the GKG as well. Also I was very active in the Shugden subject and partook the demonstrations of NKT in three German towns and Swiss as well. I was also active in spreading the NKT "news" on Shugden to the press in a huge campaign, ringing the press, talking to the press and people and informing them about that subject of "religious perescution". So, we can say I am a representative of the Shugden as well. Than I met many Shugden Lamas and heard also their view on GKG. So, we can say I am a representative of them as well. This quite naturally makes me even more useful with respect to the subject of the article (see article for reasons).
* You bought the domain www.info-buddhismus.de which you use not to give general information about buddhism as the name would suggest but to make the articles that you wrote in WP and other sources available to as many people as possible in order to spread your view of the NKT. So you first introduce your negative view into WP articles and then you use the good reputation of WP to spread this information as the "truth". I noticed you use WP as a reference, for example when you discuss about the NKT in the internet forum of the German Buddhist Society and, vice versa, you use your own interviews and website as reliable sources or references in WP articles. Very clever.
Do you wish to deceive people or inform them? Quite from the beginning I run it the site states: 
::Diese Domain (www.info-buddhismus.de) wurde lediglich genutzt, weil die Domain frei war und schon gut verlinkt ist. Die Informationen, die hier zur Verfügung gestellt werden, geben keinen repäsentativen Auszug des Buddhismus in Deutschland wieder, noch sind die Informationen für jeden geeignet. Die Informationen sind für diejenigen gedacht, die unabhängige, sachliche Informationen über die zwei genannten Organisationen, die "Schützerpraxis" um Dorje Shugden und der eigentlichen (nicht mehr existenten) Kadampa Tradition gewinnen möchten. 
::Mit dieser Infoseite trage ich meine Verantwortung, in der Vergangenheit die einseitige und verdrehende Publicity beider Vereine mitunterstützt und damit Menschen fehlerhaft informiert und auf - für mich - äußerst fragwürdige Pfade geleitet zu haben.
(Maybe you translate it for the reader and excuse yourself for giving misleading information?)
Further when doing the changes at WP I was faced by the strong effort of NKT to revert and repress all the points they do neglect and hide usually. So I had the wish after a while to collect the articles with correct information together so that I have some information for people independent on how successful NKT is to delete the correct mentioned facts at WP. I think this is a natural idea and not a bad one. Parallel to this people asked for information on NKT because they lacked it. Why not giving them proper information where they can find it and referring to WP? If I have the interest to give correct information on NKT why not saying where people can find them? Even if based on my knowledge, as long as my knowledge is not wrong people get proper information…(When searching of someone knowing NKT well I was introduced by two respected Buddhist teachers (one of them is a Havard doctorate) as a source of information to the Chief Editor of the Austria Buddhist Magazine, who himself is a professor of medicine. So maybe I have some knowledge on NKT, maybe not. By the way it was NKT who refused any interview to that magazine not me, I gave it.)
*You have declared publicly on your website (http://www.info-buddhismus.de/Interviews-Ex-NKT.html), in an Austrian Buddhist Journal and on other occasions on WP talk pages that your aim is to warn of the NKT and to stop this "madness". 
Maybe you have not the correct background. The interview was led by telephone and was dealing more if NKT is a cult or not and what agruments I have of claiming this. If he would have asked “Do you could sleep well in NKT?” I would have answered this question: "Yes the most time I slept well". You can not transfer in general different situations and mix them up. Sometimes this leads to errors. My aim at WP is as I stated above. But of course if possible I do warn people. Sometimes I have this motivation too.
I put much effort to avoid being biased. Maybe I was not successful. Please excuse me. But I think we can come to the agreement: all the facts are correct now and there is no wrong or contorted information anymore in the article on NKT, isn't it? Further the article sheds light on the history and development of NKT in a correct way, isn't it? But maybe to much light. So perhaps we need some changes…(Maybe we can include a dimmer switch...).
Regarding the ordination: In Buddhist countries such deeds as ignoring and not following the Vinaya and setting up an own ordained community of lay people with celibacy wearing robes is quite a hard thing. I think the point is even lighted to less. It is not a slight change it is a heavy one, especially because it is done by one person not by an assembly of elder ones. However; I tried to express it more moderate. We do not have here a case of “minor rules” we have a case of establishing an order without novice and full ordained monks and thereby expelling the complete Vinaya with its democratic rules. It is also based very much to this (and the lack of knowledge of westerners) that GKG was able to establish himself as the sole spiritual leader and authority and even take off robes from people who wish not to follow him anymore or taking the ordination away when he wants to put down persons fearing to loose control. (as happened in Berlin 2000) In cases of wrong behaviour (regarding the monastic rules) of a monk or nun the whole community of the elder full ordained ones are in charge to help and correct a person, not a single one. Also at first it is examined well if the person has acted in contradiction of any rule and the like so that all is fair and correct. All this is not present in NKT. So I think the information in the article are neutral and give fair information (regarding your example). This is seen by other editors too.
Regarding Kay: I think the history and emergence sections are completely correct and following the research correctly without misusing the information or contorting them in any way. However if you find faults I am happy if you can correct them. Also I am happy if you can give some reference to the points made by NKT members in the article where quotes are still missed; maybe you’ll find more good things on NKT you miss as well, just put it in the article if they are correct. I am happy if you can improve the article, balance it or make it more neutral. I focused and gave evidence on the contorted information and will do this in the future as well. So please don’t ask me to write a section on the flowers at the Manjushri Centre and how people smile if new persons or the press is coming ;-) "She told us a little about the New Kadampa tradition of Buddhism, brought to this country by the bespectacled 67-year-old Tibetan monk Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, now resident in Cumbria, while bestowing upon us wave after wave of those wonderful smiles so that we were soon all grinning back beatifically at her." (The Guardian, ) But however User:Marpa I see the fault of being too much active and dominating the article too. I asked three editors (Humanum/Excellentone/Clockwork) for their opinions regarding the dvelopment of the article. We'll see what they will say. take care, --Kt66 21:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Kt66, with due respect but you seem to be very confused. How can you say you ARE a representative of the NKT, you ARE a representatve of Geshe Kelsang, you ARE a representative of many Shugden Lamas??? And how can you say that this makes you more useful with respect to the subject of the article??? I know you have a psychologist in Berlin who specialized in helping "Shugden-victims" (as if there were any!) but maybe you should seek other help too. Sorry, but what you are expounding here and the many changes you made to the article in the last few days just prove how obsessed you are with respect to this subject. Why don't you allow yourself a permanent wikibreak? It would do you good. Marpa 21:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: kind answer to marpa

message: Hi there. There do not happen much here: I do not know really why. However the AMA request will be resolved (I see no great popblems regarding this) maybe we can discuss how to go on in improving the article. Maybe some of the editors who wish to contribute have to buy the books by Kay, Cozort and Bluck. Besides a possible undue wight of Kays research (or corrupt aspects of NKT) there is a lot of the subject still not in the article. The emphasis on Guru devotion / guru-yoga is a main key in NKT and is related with all the other subjects. Also it would be fine to tell what the qualifications of NKT teachers are and the like. I agree to user:Karma chogyam, the merge of the two sections I think is not helpful. I disagree at that time with a merge. Both sections describe an integral part of NKT and give a short summery and I see no use of merging them. I will make some changes in the reference section and the teaching sections. If you disagree please remove it again, than we can discuss here. It seems no one is really active now. --Kt66 06:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added further sources and included the subject on the qualifications of NKT teachers. Please feel free to balance this or discuss this or raise up any doubt here. The short-cut of that is: "As the basis of NKT is strong reliance to GKG the teachers have to follow in exactly, otherwise - they say - the NKT will disintegrate and the purity of the teachings is getting lost. It is very important to keep the NKT/GKG teachings 'pure' which means not 'mixing' them with other teachings, personal ideas and the like. So NKT teachers are not enocurgaed to read other books rather they where actively discorouged in the past. Also the qualification of NKT teachers should be mentioned. The main qualification is their faith in GKG (being a 'channel'), than they just have to sign for the Teacher Training Program and are choosen quite eearly without completing it as teachers, are sent to oversea and teach there studying on tapes and two times a year at Mahjushri Centre." This is an important point, I included. What do other edtors think? Regards, --Kt66 08:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I followed the suggestion of u:E1 and added sources where possible or deleted unsourced quotes. Please leave your comment, suggestion or just change the article if you disagree in any way or put in the article wich you feel should stated. --Kt66 01:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: further changes

message: I have now put all the suggestions I recognized into practice. I think a neutral Editor and native English should go through the text and make it more NPOV where needed and and remove grammar, language and spelling errors. Maybe User:Billion can do this? Thank you very much, --Kt66 11:14, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: fineshed

message: As the main point of AfD is the reference towards Kay whom seem to be at that time the only one who made a research on the history I will give here some quotes of what he thinks makes discribing the history of NKT so dificult. This can be used as a background keeping in mind when discussing improvements on the History section. If there is anybody able to balance that section please do it.
After Kay has indroduced the situation of the most  NRM's regarding different versions on their history he cites Coney (1997): 
:Most often, what is forgotten is forgotten because it no longer fits in with the current version of events, especially one constructed by an elite group. Sometimes, indeed, unwelcome memories are systematically destroyed by leaderships.
and argues further:
:Leaderships exclude memories by expelling individual malcontents or by simply not referring to unwelcome historical facts until they 'cease to be part of the group repertoire of memories'. Changing the name of the leader or group also allows memories associated with previous designations to fade whilst promoting the creation of new memories. The project of deliberately excluding histories, however, is not always completely successful because repressed memories 'can return to haunt the margins of a discourse and continue, despite their apparent absence, to influence its structure'. Alternatively, competing versions of events may only become temporarily submerged within the dominant account and may later 'rise again to the surface of the collective memory'.
Then he is introducing what he has observed in the following lines:
:The NKT is a religious movement in which the dynamics of history construction, as outlined by Coney, are well exemplified. Multiple 'histories' exist on an individual and public group level both inside and outside the movement. As the pre-history of the group is rooted in conflict and schism, the social organization of memory and forgetfulness, especially by the group's leadership, is particularly striking. Accounts of current and former members either reinforce or contradict and compete with each other. They diverge widely over points of historical detail and often interpret the same events and processes in very different ways, reflecting a wide range of personal experience, depth of involvement, bias, opinion and loyalty. At the level of public discourse, the history and identity of the NKT has also, during the course of its development, undergone considerable realignment. Of course, such revision and reconfiguration of the past is commonplace within religious movements that are more concerned with issues of identity and ideology than with notions of historical veracity. It is important that the observer looking at the NKT today accounts for the substantial pre-history of the movement's emergence in Britain, examining carefully the forces that influenced Geshe Kelsang's thought and the direction of his centres in the years preceding the NKT's announcement in 1991. Otherwise, there is a danger that the pre-history of the group might be (mis)placed within a narrative of continuity; that is, understood as if the features characterizing the organization today were always part of its outlook. Such anachronistic readings of the group's history are not uncommon among both NKT disciples and non-NKT Buddhists alike, who often place the group's emergence into a simplified teleological narrative, albeit for quite different personal and ideological reasons. Other disciples retain a greater awareness of the complexities of the group's historical emergence in spite of the leadership's attempts, at the public level of discourse, to eradicate certain 'unwelcome memories' of discontinuity and conflict by presenting an overarching narrative of continuity.
For more see Kay page 81-83. If you don't have the money to buy the book try it please with google book search. If there are any other sources than Kay on the history please be so kind to name it. Regards --Kt66 11:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Improving the History section

message: I cannot believe Amerique  listed this article on AFD. Come on guys keep a level head and keep editing. Billlion 17:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I misunderstood. Amerique was doing it as part of an WP:AMA on behalf of User:Excellentone, see Excellentone's Talk. Billlion 22:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  AFD