Talk:Symphony No. 1 (Rachmaninoff)

message: Shouldn't we have a few ex-links, to some recordings, maybe? Also, the part about the symphony being a flop doesn't seem to be completely neutral; should it be changed perhaps to "failure"? —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  17:11, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The failure really took place in the premiere (I red about it in "memorials abot R.") but the cause was Glazunov's phlegmatic temperament wich is terrible for such emotional sympfony (Glazunov wasn't drunk). For links to recordings see ukrainian version --A4 08:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links and NPOV 

message: I had always read that Rachmaninov tore up the manuscript of the symphony. Has this been proved not the case? —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  15:31 7 May, 2008 (UTC)
:Yes. Sophia Satin, among others, acknowledged that Rachmaninoff did not tear up the manuscript and, in fact, thought at least at one point abot revising the score. The manuscript was lost after the October Revolution. Jonyungk (talk) 02:30, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  ? 

message: I have a few suggestions to improve the article:
*Unify citations, using for example Harison, p. 198 in repetaed ones. NEW  —Preceding unsigned comment added by OboeCrack (talk • contribs) 19:23, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: All these are very good suggestions. Any chance on seeing a translated version of the extended lead from the spanish version on this discussion  page? Thanks! Jonyungk (talk) 15:45, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

text: Let's see what we can do about that. I'll tinker with this section and add some material on this talk page before importing it to the article page. :) Jonyungk (talk) 01:23, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

text: New addition, see diff. OboeCrack (talk) 15:30, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  More additions, see diff., though I may have crossed the line in POV with the quote from Simpson. Jonyungk (talk) 18:32, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Transferred new lead section to article—please make further changes there. Thanks! Jonyungk (talk) 00:58, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improvement of the article to achieve FA status

message: What does it mean "ft." in this citation: Harrison, ft. 5.? OboeCrack (talk) 20:09, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Footnote. Jonyungk (talk) 16:41, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: Is there someone who has or could write in more detail about this symphony's movements, ber OboeCrack's suggestion? I have Piggott's guide to Rach's orchestral music but the information is in places too detailed and in others not detailed enough to adapt succinctly here. Harrison does not really give an analysis and since I am not a trained musician, I don't feel qualified to give my own analysis (besides, that could border or spill over into OR, not a good thing at all). Jonyungk (talk) 01:31, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi again! I've added to the spanish version the paragraph about the manuscript disappearance. I think that you should add a brief paragraph of each movement, like in this article: Symphony No. 3 (Górecki), as well as adding excerpts of the score. I have an idea: it's important the opening "cell" of the first mvt. Just give a few details. Thanks for improving! Keep doing well (at least until it gets FA status) OboeCrack (talk) 19:15, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see my comments above. Someone better versed in musical analysis than myself should write this section. If you feel qualified and want me to correct the English afterwards, then please go ahead and write it. Jonyungk (talk) 21:41, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

text:  !! see dif. I found the information in the Spanish version of Rene Tranchefort Guide to symphonic music. I also asked Alton to do a excerpt of the opening, what he did succesfully. Finally, I added some images. I think now it is complete, the Spanish version at least. Try to found that book, if not possible, I will "translate" it the best I can. OboeCrack (talk) 18:03, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Info about movements 

message: "Moreover, Rachmaninoff's wife and other witnesses later suggested that Glazunov may have been drunk on the podium." Did Rachmaninoff get married in 1897? I think it was later when he did. Maybe we could say the name, or the future wife at least. OboeCrack (talk) 15:35, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, you mean by "later" a few decades later in some interviews, didn't you? OboeCrack (talk) 16:25, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, now it is perfectly understandable! OboeCrack (talk) 22:05, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  wife? 

message: I have two suggestions, somebody has made about the Spanish article:
* Give a brief biography of the author. One or two paragraphs
* Place the technical aspects after the general overview. Put 2 in the place of 3 and viceversa. 
Tell me what you think. OboeCrack (talk) 12:59, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe sections can be ordered in many ways, for example number 3 has a lot of subsetions that can be placed on independent ones. OboeCrack (talk) 22:04, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

text: I gave some references, now! OboeCrack (talk) 22:04, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  2 Suggestions! 

message: (Copied from the FAC page) I was curious about the tone adopted in the article, so I did some hunting on Google books and compared some of the phrases in the article to one of the books used. My suspicions turned out to be correct:
*"a sense of large-scale form at once acute and well-focused" direct lift from Harrison
*"In this respect they resemble what Béla Bartók would call "imaginary folk music," which appeared from Bartók's having so completely absorbed the spirit and vocabulary of Eastern European folk song and dance that he sometimes composed in this style without quoting any source material." A few synonymous inserted here and there, but reads almost exactly the same as Harrison.
*"Official recognition had come with the award of Moscow Conservatory's rarely conferred Great Gold Medal. He had found a publisher early in his career; those of his works he wished to set before the public were quickly printed and just as swiftly performed. He had won the approval and active encouragement of Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, the most internationally prominent figure in Russian musical life. Given all this, Rachmaninoff may have had every reason to believe that the premiere of the most important work he would have written to date would be a resounding success. Instead he would receive what would literally be the shock of his life." Entire paragraph lifted almost verbatim.
*These are just random examples. I shudder to think what I might find if I went through the entire article. BuddingJournalist 23:00, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not remember Norris mentioning specific authors, but I do not believe it is just his opinion, either. Jonyungk (talk) 14:31, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Noted and changed. Please feel free to do the same—it would probably be good to put the article through a thorough copyedit. Though this may have been better to do before submitting it to FAC, better late than never. Jonyungk (talk) 21:55, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Copyright_violations|Copyvio]] 

message: The photo of Eugene Ormandy that was recently removed was taken from Wikimedia Commons and to the best of my knowledge was already approved. Jonyungk (talk) 22:18, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: We can use this photo  or this one , if the photo of the Moscow Conservatoire is removed. OboeCrack (talk) 09:42, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Ormandy photo

message: Jonyungk asked me to take a look at this article, while it was in FAC.  I skimmed it then, but didn't have a chance to read in more detail until recently.
Something about the article's structure bugged me, and it took me a while to figure out what it was.  This is just my opinion, feel free to ignore it...  The article's content is pretty good, but, as the FA reviewers noted, it needs copyediting, which I can do some of (I've not had my writing tested against criterion 1a yet).  However, I think the material is presented in the wrong order, which ought to be fixed before it goes through copyediting.  I'd like to know what the work is before it is compared to other things (which is what the current first sentence of the body does).  I suggest that the article begin with the "Background" and "Composition" sections, followed by the "Description".  The musicology (the current first section), performance and manuscript history, and so on, can follow.
I'll be happy to copyedit the article as it is, but I think it will be a better article if restructured.  Let me know if you want more feedback or help. Magic♪piano 15:12, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I couldn't agree more. In fact, this is what I was trying to say, because of an advice given to me by another Spanish wikipedist. OboeCrack (talk) 22:53, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Now done some changes, what do you think? OboeCrack (talk) 02:55, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Article structure

message: I have included some samples, please check them asap, as they are the first fair use sounds I use. OboeCrack (talk) 16:24, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Media 

message: I'm doing what I can but this article really needs an extremely thorough copyedit as well as a careful and extensive content edit by someone knowledgable of the sources to make sure the copyvio issue is solved. I can do what I can, but given all this, do we really want to continue the GA process at this point or pull the article from the nomination list and take the time needed to regroup? Jonyungk (talk) 14:53, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you, as the main writter, consider so, please pull the artcle. Let's take a time to do this. OboeCrack (talk) 15:23, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the template. I don't know if that is the good way, just tell me. OboeCrack (talk) 22:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is no longer on the nominations list, so I think that did it. Jonyungk (talk) 23:44, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: This article needs a lot of work

message: I have agreed to do a full copyedit on the article, and will try and complete this over the next couple of days. I will use an "inuse" template while I am working, to discourage drive-by amendments. I don't know enough about Rachmaninoff and his symphony to check out facts – it is prose pure and simple that is my concern. When I have finished I will report here any problems I have found.
Brianboulton (talk) 19:05, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: (Later) I have copyedited the lead, Background, and Composition sections and  have reached the Description section,  The only citation in the Description section is to what I believe is a Spanish-language book – are you saying that there is not a single English language source on which you can draw for a description of this symphony? That seems improbable, to say the least. But my main query is, where did the text for this section come from? Is it based on a translation, and if so, where is this translation published? It is written in an altogether different style from the rest of the article, and in view of the past copyvio history of this article, I need some reassurance before I can continue with the copyedit. Brianboulton (talk) 22:31, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Jonyungk said me that his books were too detailed I tried to find a book with a brief but complete description of the symphony and I found this Spanish-tranlated French book. I translated it again to English from Spanish, so that's why it doen't sound wuite well. Jonyungk tried to check spelling and grammar, and that's all... This is the book in question, OboeCrack (talk) 22:21, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Your English translation of the Spanish translation from a book originally written in French is (a) original research and (b) incredibly indirect. I repeat: why not use English language sources for your description of this symphony? Please see WP:NONENG. Brianboulton (talk) 22:45, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, feel free to remove that information. I can't contribute to this article only in a few things, I'm not a native speaker, tough, I am learning fast. Ask Jonyungk to provide you some information, then you can copyedit those paragraphs. OboeCrack (talk) 23:51, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I don't have the time or the inclination to carry on in this manner. My participation in this is closed. Brianboulton (talk) 15:00, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyediting