Talk:John Howard/Archive 7

message: So far as I can see, we have not reached concensus on including any reference to the copra planations. John Howard had no involvement in the plantation scheme, and no knowledge of it until well after the death of all those involved, according to our best sources. While it is reasonable to use some sort of wishy-washy term such as "took interest in" to describe the level of involvement of his father and grandfather, that's too weak to sustain us giving the affair a mention. Lyall Howard ran petrol stations in which John Howard worked. He talked about his experiences as a digger in the First World War, and John Howard has referred to this many times. But on the copra plantations he does not speak and unless we find otherwise, we must assume that he had no knowledge or involvement, because we certainly do not have any sources saying otherwise. There is just not enough relevance for inclusion.
The other argument is that John Howard has said that he was brought up in a household that "sort of" valued honesty and hard work, and that the involvement of his father and grandfather in the copra scheme contradicts his public statement. This fails on three grounds. First, we don't have any sources that say that he knew about the scheme at all, so he may be merely speaking the truth as he knew it. Secondly, the scheme was not illegal. No charges were laid and an investigation went nowhere. Wikipedia is not a court for us to determine on the basis of newspaper reports whether someone long dead was innocent or guilty of some unspecified crime. And thirdly, that "sort of" lets John Howard off the hook. To my mind, the scheme was legitimate in the same manner as exploiting a tax loophole, but there was enough "sort of" about it that it wasn't entirely kosher. If he knew about it in every detail, then that qualifying "sort of" makes his comments entirely accurate. There is no conflict, regardless of how some of us here might like to believe that John Howard is the spawn of the devil rather than a suburban servo owner.
As I have pointed out previously, the Lyall Howard article contains full details and it is only a link away. --Pete 02:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consensus on Howard family interests 

message: I just started a new heading to make it easier to find the edit button. Hey, AussieBoy and Shot Info: despite the lively debate (above) you both may be on the same side. As I perceive it, AussieBoy, you'd prefer an extended piece on the plantations that says the Howards acted illegally. Shot Info, as I perceive it, you are willing to include a mention of the plantations as long as it's brief and worded in an acceptable way. Maybe you could both agree on something here. AussieBoy, I know you passionately believe the Howards acted in a criminal way with the plantations, but if you agree to leave that out of the article then maybe we'll have more people who can agree on something. Is that OK with you? Lester2 02:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh, I'm glad somebody read the RfC comment rather than engage in ever decreasing spirals (lively...) :-).  IMO, consensus has been formed with the comprimise position (per WP:PRACTICAL).  I note Pete's comments and generally I agree with them but I agree with Lester and Bren which is why I favour the compromise.  Shot info 02:43, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine with me. I was only expressing my preferred position and am willing to compromise, as long as there is some mention of the plantations. AussieBoy 03:27, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's great to hear. I hope we can "put down our guns", so to speak, and work something out. Shot Info, I'm curious to know what's your current preference for wording. They "bought", "owned", "nominally owned", "had interests in", "acquired" plantations, etc, etc Lester2 05:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We shouldn't have any preference.  What does the source(s) say.  That's what we as Wikipedians follow.  Anything else is (unfortunately) OR.  Shot info 05:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. The research seems to all come from the David Marr article (the rest seem to quote from that). I just read through it again. QUOTES FROM DAVID MARR ARTICLE:*Yet at this nadir, Lyall Howard tendered to buy four plantations on Kar Kar, a high volcanic island with perfect soil off the coast of Madang. He was awarded two: Kavilo for £9800 and Marangis for £30,600 — in today's currency a total of roughly $4 million.*Both (companies) were using dummies: ex-diggers who bought in their own names but signed management of the businesses over to their backers.*a legless ex-digger found himself the owner of the mighty Bopiri plantation but lived out his days pulling the rope in the Burns Philp lift in Bridge Street, Sydney.*Auditor-General report: "it appears to me to be very difficult for the Custodian to satisfy himself that their intention is to acquire the property in order to hold and use it for their own exclusive benefit."*In late 1930, the Howards signed new mortgages over Kavilo*In 1949, the Howards had sold the last of their holdings to Carpenters.  --Lester2 07:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Reply from User:Lester2: Hello Sarah. You said the only purpose for mentioning plantations is "is to tar John Howard with the business dealings of his father". Should the impact on the subject's reputation be a factor regarding its inclusion or omission in Wikipedia? Shouldn't we be more concerned about issues of factual truth and notability, rather than the subject's reputation? Personally, I don't believe a brief mention of plantations, worded in a sensitive way, would have any impact on John Howard's reputation, one way or the other. But you say it will. If you believe the information "tars" the reputation of John Howard, then you have provided a reason for its relevance and connection to John Howard. You also said the David Marr article is an "attack piece". Is an attack piece an article that is factually wrong, or are you referring to the tone of the language used? If it is the tone of the language, then we can use a different tone. As for factual accuracy, the newspaper is subject to libel laws, the article was printed over a year ago and there have been no law suits, no complaints, and no rebuttals from the Prime Minister. The article was a front page headline of the printed newspaper, the text occupied an entire page of the broadsheet publication, and 6 full pages of the newspaper's online edition. If it is an "attack piece", as you say, then it is a very major and very prominent one! Who are we to say it is wrong? Is the recently published biography on John Howard, which uses the same facts about plantations, also an attack piece?--Lester2 22:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sarah, it would very much advance the discussion if you could substantively respond to Lesters cogent points above... --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 05:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Brendan, it would be really nice if you would cease trying to stir things up. You really are not a help to this process. Sarah 08:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Lester, I'm not worried about JH's reputation as such with regard to the copra material; if I was I wouldn't have spent so much time researching and helping write the Lyall Howard article and arguing to keep it. I am, however, worried that including the information violates BLP because it isn't about John Howard, but rather, his father. If we hadn't saved the Lyall article from deletion, I would have agreed a small mention in this article was appropriate, but since this article links to the Lyall article where it is discussed at length, I don't see the need to include it here, too, where it can never be given enough room to explain appropriately and may easily incorrectly lead people to believe that there was some wrongdoing on Lyall's part and that JH was involved in some way. Additionally, including it here encourages people to add slanting comments, such as claiming that the Howard's family's values of hard work etc are "questioned" and such. An "attack article" is an article which exists to attack or slur the subject(s). The basic facts may well be true, but they are deliberately tied together in ways that attack the subject(s). Just because it was published in a prominent newspaper does not mean it is not an attack article. Attack articles are frequently published in the mainstream media; it doesn't mean that we have to follow suit. Sarah 08:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, to answer your question about the book, I haven't read it so I have no idea if it is an attack piece or not. I also am not personally convinced the Marr article is an attack piece, but I know that many people do consider it one, which is why I have been been trying to get you to use other sources in this and the Lyall article when other sources can be used. Sarah 08:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Compromise?

message: There is a sentence in Kevin Rudd's Early life section saying Rudd's recollections of his family's eviction from the farm after the death of his father are disputed, on the basis of a single Herald article, using the appended wording "although his account of the circumstances surrounding the eviction has been disputed". This presents a definite case of non-neutrality and inconsistency. On the one hand, in the article for the federal Leader of the Opposition it is OK to present criticisms of Rudd's early life recollections, but in the article for the current Prime Minister, consensus for the merest of similar criticism continues to be withheld. Yet, were the arguments of the anti-copra editors consistently applied, this would see the removal of the Rudd Early Life criticisms too.
Moreover, unlike Labor's seeming non-exploitation of the plantation info when it came out, the Coalition actually maligned Rudd's character at the time on the basis of his allegedly mistaken recollection. They tried to make it an issue of character. Starting to smell the bias yet?
This needs to be resolved in a consistent neutral fashion with foremost concern for the best interests of the encyclopedia. --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 15:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is Kevin Rudd's early life discussed extensively in another article like the copra and John Howard's father in Lyall Howard? If not, the comparison is not relevant. Also, please see: WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Sarah 15:22, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Huh? I never said it was a policy or a guideline or anything else. In fact, I made no comment on it at all except to direct you to it. And for the record, it is relevant in terms of comparing content in one article to content in another. That something is in (or exists as) one article, does not justify something being in another. All things are not equal. Goodnight, Sarah 16:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biased treatment of Early Lives of [[John Howard#Early life|Howard]] v [[Kevin Rudd#Early life|Rudd]] 

message: Some editors have recently been trawling through the John Howard article, deleting any reference that mentions "copra plantations". There have been instances where the article text is not disputed, but people have deleted the reference because the reference also mentions "copra plantations". To me, this is an act of vandalism.
An example is the text about when Lyall Howard died, "leaving his mother to take care of John".
I didn't write that text. I just found the reference for it. After our previous RfC, and the presiding admin User:Hornplease called for people to find references, I started searching for references to cover unreferenced text. Someone recently deleted the reference for that line of text, but left the article text unchanged.
To me, the act of deleting references like that is destructive to the fundamental process that builds Wikipedia. It reaches a new low-point, when the hysteria over the Copra issue extends to deleting references from other non-controversial parts of the article, just because the reference newspaper story also mentions the dreaded "copra".
After my protests about the (above) reference being deleted, another editor later added an alternate reference that didn't at all mention the fact that after Lyall's death Mona & John Howard were left alone in the house. If someone wishes to replace an existing reference, they should at least make sure the replacement reference fully covers the subject matter. It's almost like "any reference will do, as long as it doesn't mention copra".
What are we going to do about the new John Winston Howard biographical book? It mentions the dreaded copra. Are we going to then disallow this book as a Wikipedia reference? I ask people to stop deleting references. It's bizarre, and it's unravelling the fabric of Wikipedia. --Lester2 00:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Out of interest, Hornplease isn't an admin [] but I note that Gnangarra and Sarah both are.  Shot info 01:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Page 9 of the Barnett/Goward biography, which we have long listed as a reference, mentions Howard and his mum living alone together in the family house after the death of Lyall Howard. We don't need an online source for every little uncontroversial fact, otherwise we'd have a list of references as long as the article text, if not more so. Does the new biography showe any link between John Howard and the copra thing? Or is it just in connection to Lyall Howard? --Pete 01:16, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion of references

message: (Added heading to separate it from reference issue above)Lester2  —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 03:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you kidding? How about your question, only a few entries above, "Does the new biography showe any link between John Howard and the copra thing?"? My apologies, that is not an assertion, it is an implication. --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 04:18, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

text: 'Skyring(Pete), I haven't got my copy of the new John Winston Howard biography yet. How many pages does it devote to plantations? Do you know what page number it begins with? (so I can quicky flick through to the relevant bit)?--Lester2 03:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: p 7-8.  Shot info 05:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks shot info. I'll go get a copy of the new biography and read its version of the plantation saga.Lester2 05:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is some further info previously discussed .  Shot info 05:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Shot Info. I read your reasoning that the plantations only takes up a page or so of the biography. So, out out of curiosity, I performed a word count on our John Howard article. It contains roughly 6050 words, not including references (which would add much more to the count). This brief version of the plantation saga occupied 8 words of our 6000+ word article. So our "brief" version occupied a much lower percent of our article than it does in the printed Howard biography.Lester2 06:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pardon me for asking a silly question but what on earth does the copra business have to do with John Howard, the man? This should be in the Lyall Howard article, especially since it appears John Howard had very little if anything to do with that side of the family business. If the purpose is purely, as I've seen written in some places by some contributors here, to prove some statement wrong that John Howard made at some point in his life (which also seems to have little encyclopaedic import), please read Wikipedia is not a soapbox. I'd be the first to admit I don't like John Howard and would happily see him go in October or November, but the encyclopaedia-building bit of me says this is a distraction from article development, not an aid to it. Orderinchaos 16:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, OIC. I haven't seen any evidence put forward which indicates that JH was involved or even that he knew anything about his father's investments in the copra plantations. In fact, it would seem that his father invested in these plantations some ten years before JH was even born. And according to the David Marr article, Lyall had sold the last of his copra holdings to Carpenters in 1949, when JH would have been about ten-years-old. I think it is fairly safe to say that JH's involvement in his father's copra investments would have been minimal to (most likely) non-existent. Sarah 16:17, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, it's nn. Looks like the kind of thing where ppl blame the Dalai Lama for something they don't agree with which happened when he was 4 yo. Blnguyen  (bananabucket) 04:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Plantation debate continues

message: Due to the fact that the article references keep getting deleted, I will add links here for some of the newspaper stories which refer to the plantations, to allow people to check the sources:
*David Marr
*Hamish McDonald
*Stay In Touch
*Prime Minister responds to copra allegations
*Joel Gibson
*PNG Post Courier feature article
*Island Business magazine
Note: Fiji's Island Business magazine doesn't include new info (it quotes the original David Marr piece), but I include it to show the reaction in the pacific island nations, including a front page devoted to the issue. Lester2 00:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also see that User:Hornplease (above) has cited the existence of an article in the PNG Post-Courier newspaper in New Guinea, though I haven't yet been able to locate an online version of this article to quote for references. The Post-Courier website is here, but they don't seem to retain archives online dating back to 2006. Update: Article found Lester2 07:23, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It has also been pointed out by User:AussieBoy (above) that the recently published best-selling biography, John Winston Howard has included the plantation affair. --Lester2 02:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've reviewed the section in the book. There's nothing new, it's entirely concerned with Lyall Howard, and any link with John Howard is, in the author's word, "unclear". --Pete 04:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I gather you dropped out of the thread above then, because you will see this an aid to  explaining my reasoning for brief inclusion.  But given the lack of consensus and the inclusion over at Lyall Howard, I now don't really mind if it isn't in here.  Some third party sources saying why it should be included (not just sources stating the issue) would be beneficial to helping salve editors and helping consensus on it's merry way (also articulated several times above).  Shot info 07:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I read the plantation section of the John Winston Howard book ISBN : 0-522-85334-X. Plantations takes up just over a page (starts on 2nd paragraph page 7), and wording is fairly similar to the newspaper articles, and uses the word "dummying", just like the papers, and it mentions the contradiction between "plantations" and Howard's stated background "myths". Book is 472 pages total. Pages 432-445 are references. It has 16 pages of images. So that probably leaves about 400 pages of content. --Lester2 06:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Plantation newspaper articles

message: When asked via email about his Howard plantation research and it's relevance to John Howard, biographer David Marr replied (on Sunday 16 Sep 2007 16:08:37 +1000), in full:
Given that some have expressed a view that the article by Marr, a professional biographer, is an "attack piece", and that making assertions of that nature could be construed as defaming his character and ethics, it seems only fair that his view be heard.  Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 14:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: David Marr's opinion about his work isn't relevant. If he wants to comment on our article, he can come and do so himself. I don't think anyone has argued that Lyall's life hasn't impacted on JH. After all, that was the basic premise for keeping the Lyall Howard article: he really isn't notable in his ownright, his notability comes from his relationship with JH. Secondly, do you have consent to reproduce his email? Do you have consent to publish it under the GFDL? Does he know and understand that his email may be republished and used for any purpose, even commercially? If not, I suggest you remove it ASAP. Posting emails on Wikipedia is frowned upon. Regardless, of that, posting emails from the journalist seems rather like clutching at straws to me. I mean, he has a clear COI and a vested interest in us, a top 10 website, linking to his articles. He isn't a neutral party in discussion about the validity and credibility of his articles.  Sarah 14:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I've said what I have to say and I don't need you twisting my words and trying to read between the lines and infer that I'm saying anything about the David Marr the person. My comment above was quite clear. It is a simple fact that David Marr has a COI in relation to his own material. His opinion and understandable desire for us to link to his article in the bio on the Australian Prime Minister in a top ten website is an obvious COI. Furthermore, it is obvious that he is responding to what you have put to him and by responding in terms of the relevance of Lyall Howard and the Copra, I can only assume what exactly you have told him. My own position is Lyall's life, including the copra business, is relevant to JH's life, hence my arguing to save the Lyall article and spending a day researching and helping re-write it. However, the copra doesn't warrant mention in the bio of JH when we already link to the Lyall article. Now, I'm going to follow other people's leads and stop paying attention to you because all we do is rehash the same tired arguments again and again, endlessly going in circles until, I suspect, you hope, you wear your opponents out and they drop off one-by-one. Enough! You have a one track mind and an apparent singular purpose here. We've gone over this for weeks, we're at an impasse, it's time to look at other things now because this has been going around in circles for too long. Please go and work on another issue or another article for at least a few weeks: there is no consensus for your position and posting emails from the article's author is not going to change that. Also, there's nothing wrong with POV in talk page discussions. You write that like NPOV applies to people's talk page comments; it's an article standard policy. It doesn't apply to non-mainspace content. You really need to stop trying to enforce article policies on talk pages, it detracts from your credibility. As for Kevin Rudd, that otherstuffexists isn't a reason for doing or not doing anything on Wikipedia and the comparison is not relevant anyway because there is an extensive article on Lyall Howard and it includes all the copra information. As I said, you're clutching at straws now. This is my final reply to you on this topic until at least a few weeks have passed. Sarah 15:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

text: NPOV is an ARTICLE content policy, not a talk page policy; otherstuffexists is intended to be used for discussions regarding mainspace content and is therefore useful in discussions like article content RFCs and deletion discussions. As usual, you're comparing apples and oranges and coming up with a totally irrelevant and misleading answer. COI is universally accepted on Wikipedia, so you may as well learn to live with it. I actually agree with David Marr on the point that Lyall's life, including the copra, is relevant to JH, THAT'S WHY I HELPED WORK ON AND SAVE THE LYALL HOWARD ARTICLE WHICH THIS ARTICLE IS DIRECTLY LINKED TO. But that doesn't justify including it in the article on JH's life AS WELL AS the Lyall article. You're a one track record. Go away and do something productive for a while. Sarah 01:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Sigh* I have said all along that I find the information about Lyall Howard interesting and relevant in terms of the overall story of JH. Go back and read my comments on the AfD discussion. Why else do you think I spent so much time researching and helping rewrite the article to save it from deletion??? I really wish you stop trying to twist and/or sensationalise every single thing I say. Yes, of course,  the whole Lyall Howard story is relevant to John Howard, just like any parent's story is relevant to their child. And yes, I personally think it is interesting, BUT neither is interesting me or having parental relevance to JH means that it meets our policies and guidelines for inclusion in JH's blp. As I have said repeatedly, when we have an article on this subject where it is discussed at length which is linked to from here, I do not see any valid reason for it also to be included in this bio where it can't be given appropriate space to explain and will only be used by people like you who want to use it for making partisan edits critical of JH. And don't give me this crap that us having an article devoted to Lyall is a "minor" detail. Having that article is a major accomplishment because Lyall Howard is not independently notable and thus his article would most likely have been deleted had Gnangarra not been willing to compromise with us and withdrawn his nomination. It is clear that you are only interested in using the investments to continue your claim that JH's comments about his family's values are "questioned" by his father's decision to make a legal investment before JH was even born. This is completely unacceptable. Honestly, it is making it very hard to assume good faith of you and to believe you are here for anything but political purposes. If you were here for any other reason, you'd be answering highly relevant policy grounded comments instead of trying to sensationalise irrelevancies and whitewash important considerations. You can respond as you wish but I won't be responding to you again in this copra discussion until at least a reasonable period of time has passed. There is no consensus for what you want to do and continuing to sensationalise things is only making it more and more unlikely that a compromise will ever be reached. Sarah 11:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Brendon just above on the 17th you said "There was one thing that did interest Mr Marr though. As a journalist, he keen to know who was so passionate about keeping that material out of John Howard's wikipedia bio and why." (your emphasis). This is unacceptable for an editor of Wikipedia to attempt to influence discussions by making veiled threats that those opposing your view will be subject to media scrutiny. I suggest you consider what your purpose in editing is, because it appears to me that you are more interested in political point scoring than building an encyclopedia. Gnangarra 08:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  David Marr feedback 

message: I request help understanding the RfC process (above). I assume that because it's a request for comment, that someone will make a comment. Has that person commented yet? There are many people commenting, so it's hard to know which one was assigned to comment. Is there any time limit on an RfC process, or can it go forever? Thanks,--Lester2 10:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No one is assigned to comment. I don't know what exactly you think an RFC is, but an RfC is the discussion that we just had up there ^ You asked people to comment, they commented, there is no consensus to include the material and it's time to move on for now to the next issue. Sarah 11:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's disappointing that no consensus could be found through informal discussion to either include or omit the plantation information.--Lester2 14:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps a consensus will be able to be reached one way or the other at a later date. At this stage, I support what Shot info has recommended and that is that we put this aside for now because consensus has not been reached and is not likely to be reached at this point in time due to the fact that everyone feels unable to compromise further. Sarah 16:02, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I recommended it for mediation. Maybe that'll help people to reach a compromise. --Lester2 20:54, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't. I'm not interested in mediation at this point and I doubt many others will be either. We've been going in circles for weeks and we need a decent break before discussing it again. Also, there is no point in mediation unless there is room for compromise, in this case both sides feel they cannot compromise further. Sarah 00:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mediation is never compulsory, so unless all agree to it, I guess the mediation committee will reject the application.--Lester2 03:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Mediation Link:Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/John Howard...--Lester2 06:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Update: Mediation committee has formally rejected my proposal for mediation.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lester2 (talk • contribs) 07:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really understand the point of your mediation request given that all parties must consent and I had already told you [I had told you before you proceeded with the formal process of notifying people] that I was not interested in it at this time. It seems rather peculiar to go forward with it knowing it would rejected, rather than hold it over until a later date. I also found your misleading comments on the village pump a rather peculiar thing to do. If you want to ask people's opinions of a particular dispute, you should give them the actual details, not propose it as a misleading hypothetical. Sarah 11:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Sarah. If you look at the time stamps, the RfM was submitted well before you had commented about it on the talk page.--Lester2 12:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Lester: I was going to withdraw the section you objected to on my talk page but you had already responded here as well so it seems quite pointless to withdraw it now. I will reiterate that I accept you started the process before I commented, but still, you went ahead with process and notified people even though you knew it would be rejected. It just seems that it would have been more effective to delay processing it until you had a reasonable feeling that people would accept. I note that I was not the only person who has indicated they think that we are at a no consensus impasse and that it would be best to have a break from discussing the copra business discussion before real damage is done. Please consider. Sarah 13:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I second Pete's and Shot info's proposals to defer the copra issue until a later date. It is apparent that a mutually agreeable compromise won't be reached in the immediate future and there is no point continuing to go around in circles. Sarah 11:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Put this in perspective - it's the wikidrama factor. Some people have spent 2 weeks fighting one way or another over a single line in the article. What does that line add to the understanding of visiting readers about John Howard, and why is it so important that almost all other editing on the article possibly a few weeks before an election where a lot of people will be both reading and editing has to come to a grinding halt? I think that's the point others are trying to make. Orderinchaos 15:12, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Questions re RfC 

message: The Plantation issue was referenced in this Wikipedia article with multiple significant international sources (See: Talk:John_Howard#Plantation_newspaper_articles above). Wikipedia should be reflecting the coverage the plantation issue receives in the outside world. Any questions about our coverage can be answered by looking at the general coverage of the issue.
News organisations in 3 different countries (Australia, Papua New Guinea and Fiji) have covered the Howard connection to plantations with front page major feature stories (not mere mentions of the issue). The latest biography on John Howard (June 2007) currently prominently positioned at the front every book store in Australia devotes pages 7-8 to John Howard's connection to PNG plantations. The issue is receiving coverage from sources outside Wikipedia, whether we like it or not. We need to reflect that.
All these items draw the connection to John Howard. The book, like Marr's article, says the plantation issue paints a different picture of J Howard's family circumstances than J.H has given himself. Once again, why should we argue the relevance, when the existing media coverage on the issue already provides that answer?
The issue that Lyall Howard owned New Guinea plantations is beyond dispute. We only need to look to the Papua New Guinea news coverage of the issue (linked above) and they use the word "owned". It quotes the Australian government as regarding Lyall Howard as "the sole and legal owner" of the plantation. The ownership is settled and beyond debate. Our Wiki article should also used the word "owned".
NOTABILITY: WP:N  Notability is a guideline for articles, not facts within articles. However, the notability of the plantation issue is proven by the number of significant feature articles devoted to the topic in Australia, Papua New Guinea and Fiji. In addition, to the people of Papua New Guinea and the Pacific islands, the Howard plantation issue is one of the more notable facts in relation to John Howard. The Fiji cover story on Plantations has a caricature of John Howard (not Lyall Howard) with colonial connotations.
NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW WP:NPOV:
*"NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each."We can use this formula to work out the prominence our Wikipedia article should allocate to plantations in comparison to the 2007 Howard biography. Wiki article length = 6050 words, which means the plantations would receive a minimum 16 words to give it an equal balance to the published 2007 biography.
BIOGRAPHIES OF LIVING PERSONS WP:BLP:
*"In the case of significant public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable, third-party published sources to take material from, and Wikipedia biographies should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article — even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it."There you have it. We should document what the other sources say. Why doesn't the current John Howard Wikipedia article follow that guideline?
'ARBITRATION POLICY: NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW This document contains information for those who wish to delete cited content:
*"It is inappropriate to remove blocks of well-referenced information which is germane to the subject from articles on the grounds that the information advances a point of view. Wikipedia's NPOV policy contemplates inclusion of all significant points of view."
*"Unexplained deletions of portions of controversial articles are unacceptable."
I include those last 2 quotes because those who have been actively deleting content may have also breached NPOV rules. Best wishes to all :) --Lester2 05:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lester, time to let this one go...  Shot info 06:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the AC doesn't directly rule on content. So unless one guy kept on blackwashing or whitwashing teh article for their own pruposes against consensus, nothing much would happen. But of course, you run the risk of being banned as well for your 3RR violations. Blnguyen  (bananabucket) 06:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we're into trolling territory now. Lester2, just what are you hoping for by continually flogging a dead horse? Every day we get some new attempt to restate your opinion. Everyone knows exactly what you want, we've discussed it all around and around and around, and it's not going to happen. Every day you jump on your soapbox, and every day you use up the tolerance and goodwill of longstanding editors. Take it from one who has been there, you would do very well to listen to the advice you are getting to give it a rest. --Pete 17:36, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Skyring(Pete), you spent weeks debating whether or not the Howard family actually owned the plantation. I found new documents that prove it was the case. Call it "trolling" if you will. --Lester2 23:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Brendan "There was one thing that did interest Mr Marr though. As a journalist, he keen to know who was so passionate about keeping that material out of John Howard's wikipedia bio and why." (your emphasis), can explain why anyone should presume AGF in light of the fact that you have implied that questioning the inclusion will result in that person being the subject to off-wiki investigations. Gnangarra 14:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia should reflect outside media coverage of Plantations

message: Slighting of editors providing new information about disputed content, by some of those who disagree with that content, is unreasonable and ought to cease. Whatever the outcome, whatever the issue, it is sensible that the talkpage reflects the fullest exploration of relevant matters that it can. Could all editors, in good faith, please consider this and resist the temptation to bait each other with snideness or ad hominem. For my part: Sarah, I unreservedly apologise for any unhelpful remarks during our recent dialogues. --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 14:35, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Brendan "There was one thing that did interest Mr Marr though. As a journalist, he keen to know who was so passionate about keeping that material out of John Howard's wikipedia bio and why." (your emphasis), can explain why anyone should presume AGF in light of the fact that you have implied that questioning the inclusion will result in that person being the subject to off-wiki investigations. Gnangarra 14:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:AGF|Good Faith]] discussions please 

message: Re this edit, I agree the current one is not exactly flattering, I much prefer Image:John Howard May 2006.jpg but others seem to prefer the current one as it's a totally free PD image. As per the previous couple of edits, people are uploading images of the current PM with standard non-free image templates. Should we go back to Image:John Howard May 2006.jpg or keep the totally current free PD one? Timeshift 17:45, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not use the source that provides , , ,  (etc.)?  Shot info 00:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a living person with a high public profile WP:FU policy would preclude fair use images of JH. Gnangarra 13:13, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I've continued this discussion on User_talk:Brendan.lloyd, as this applies to more than just a JH image. Gnangarra 01:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Thank you for your enquiry. The National Library has attached a number of photos to Wikipedia entries and for the most part the photos are either out of copyright or the National Library is the copyright owner. If you double click on the image it will bring up a larger copy of the image plus information relating to copyright and further use of the image. For example see the image of Robert Menzies and the copyright information at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Robert_Menzies_1930s.jpgSenior Reference LibrarianDate closed: 12 Sep 2007 09:39:43
--Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 03:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hahaha, love the reply. Cheers for that! Timeshift 03:24, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How does this apply to an image of JH, many public domain images have been used from the NL. you'll notice that the reply indicates some images are copyrighted(check each one individually) ( has specific time limits) and as such JH cant be used because it would require them posted here under fair use. Gnangarra 03:29, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I have more faith in others in their judgement of what is fair-use and acceptable on wikipedia. I'm not arguing PD, all the PMs are still fair-use and have rock solid rationales. Timeshift 09:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Timeshift: Here, I have addressed this particular reply from the NLA, in particular the fact that it is confused and doesn't help us at all. I haven't said anything about you are arguing, but tried to explain to Brendan the three possibilities, and why the confused conversation with the NLA has not helped. If you think I am mistaken in this explanation, please explain here. If you wish to discuss the rationales you have used, I am happy to continue the conversation at the WikiProject page or my talk page. JPD (talk) 10:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

text: short answer is no it doesnt alter the fact that if a free use image can be made the fair use images cant be used. What you could do is contact the PM department, or his electorate office direct and request a PD image be made available. Gnangarra 12:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But you could just as easily argue that someone should ask Bob Hawke or Malcolm Fraser for a PD picture, since they're still alive and are seen in public every now and then. At what point does it become too difficult to obtain a free use picture? Yeti Hunter 12:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Never, unless the person is demonstrably a non-public figure. Definitely, if a PD image is available, then we have no legitimate fair-use criterion to fall back on. Non=neutrality is insufficient. If you think the current photo is shifty, the option is no photo, not a FU one. Hornplease 13:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

text: If the NLA provide a form releasing an official picture into PD, then it is permissible, of course. Also if a person dies, then FU can come into play.  Hornplease 15:33, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To be clearer, the image doesn't need to be released to the public domain - it is ok for it to be released under any free license. The NLA have been adding some of their images to Wikipedia (see Special:Contributions/NLA PIC), with conditions that look vaguely like a free license, but this information suggests it doesn't apply to all their images, or even all the ones that do not mention another copyright holder. They would need to release each image under a free license. As for when we can use an image as Fair Use - the question is when it is no longer possible to create (or find) a free picture with the same effect. Clearly this is not a black and white question, and depends on what the use of the photo is in each particular article. JPD (talk) 16:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, of course, though I confess to preferring a clearly-understood PD license to a novel license that indicates free release. The "same effect" part of the FU criterion of course is open to 
interpretation, but I don't think that "looks terrible" is a condition that permits us fair use of another image. (I remember wincing for a long time every time I visited the old Anne McCaffrey page, but replacing that dreadful image with FU was out of the qn. Hornplease 16:14, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely. And even if that sort of picture quality were a valid reason to disregard a free picture, it wouldn't be relevant in this situation, where it is still possible to take pictures of the subject. The same effect clause is intended to make sure we don't use non-free pictures from one event when a free picture with different content would serve the same purpose. JPD (talk) 16:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

text: agree its a neutral image with appropriate copyright. Gnangarra 15:19, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's in public domain as well, so that's an appropriate substitute. I can't see how its any more neutral, either, but that merely means I am indifferent between the two PD images. Hornplease 15:33, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Howard's picture

message: Has anyone else noticed that four of the five pictures on the article about the Australian prime minister were taken when he was in America. Surely someone can dig up some more local ones... 124.183.147.134 07:32, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, my IP friend is back. The problem is finding free images. The ones taken by the US govt are free. Sarah 07:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Strictly speaking :commons:Category:John Howard has a number of images of JH including a few of mine taken during his visit to Deakin electorate, Victoria. They are of worse quality then I would like to but I guess they still are usable Alex Bakharev 10:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pictures & copyright

message: In-line citations should be redundant in leads as a lead should only be based on material that is in the main body. A few weeks back I fixed the article so that no info in the lead was not actually in the main article - this included making sure that any ref in the lead was also in the main body. The next step is the removal of the in-line citations from the lead as they are in the body and look ugly and unnecessary. Ie, an academic paper doesn't contain such citations in its synopsis (ie, Lead). 
It might seem a radical move to some to remove cites from a lead - it certainly seemed problematic for me when it was suggested in and FAC that cites should be removed from the lead of Indonesia. But, once the material (and cites) is in the main, there is really no problem. Just ensure that if facts in the lead are questioned, that the questioning editor be referred to the verifying lead in the main body. Thus, it is a stylistic rather than content/verification issue. regards --Merbabu 06:03, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there a Wiki guideline about opening facts being revisited later in the article? Most current Wiki articles have at least some info in the lead that is not repeated later. Should it be formatted like an academic paper? What about banal facts in the lead (birthday etc)? What about controversial facts in the lead? Shouldn't they be referenced for safety?Lester2 08:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: These might not exactly answer your questions, but they are a start:  WP:LEAD, WP:MOS.  Shot info 08:33, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure I understand Lester's comments. Can you explain it differently, please? The lead does not need to contain cites, as they must be in the body. I am not questioning Howard's birthday - but you could find a ref for that if you wanted to. --Merbabu 08:47, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I read the links 'Shot Info' posted. I think that answers my questions. Thanks--Lester2 10:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

text: But all the cites removed were all in the body. There is nothing controversial and if anyone challenges they can be directed to the body. It's worked fine like this for months on Indonesia where a number of potentially controversial facts are listed. It's not so much a question of being ugly but about readability. regards --Merbabu 00:42, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  In-line citations and lead... 

message: *Exclusive use of, and sole reliance upon, Howard's quote, "I was sort of brought up in a home that sort of believed in the values of hard work and honesty and commitment to one’s country, and commitment to one’s community", to portray his upbringing, is non-neutral.  I propose its removal. --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 05:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually believe the quote fails WP:NOT, just as I also believe the commentary on it fails WP:NOT - his opinions on his childhood are not terribly relevant to an article on himself. I'd be happy to see them both go. Orderinchaos 09:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Not "any quote". Singular quotes, either from or about the article subject, about matters that cannot be verified through additional sources, which may be construed to either unduly favour or disfavour the subject. Please seek, rather than expect, consensus. --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 10:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-neutral Howard Upbringing Quote

message: I've added this to distinguish the details of Howards youth and family from the details of his political engagement, which is distinct again from his commencement as a Member of Parliament. The intended effect is better narrative/flow). --Brendan Lloyd [ contribs ] 16:01, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New "Political provenance" section

message: PWNAGE!!!!!!!
John howard isnt Prime Minister anymore, or he wont be.
Benelong got owned by McKew!
WOOT
edit: sorry, that was on the tv. ITS probable that John Howard will lose benelong  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.253.67.26 (talk) 08:44, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Incumbent?

message: Immense public pressure? This implies that Howard was unwilling to act until some kind of "immense public pressure" ?! Citation is needed to show that Howard was unwillin to act , and to show what the immense public pressure was.
-- Stirling.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stirling Taylor (talk • contribs) 09:29, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: East Timor

message: It's unacceptable that the uncited glory statements about the economy remain, with "Verification needed" tag on it for weeks. It's OK for there to be glory statements, but his is not the Liberal Party's own websites, and as such, some counterpoint is also needed.
*The line about the "inherited" debt from 1996 is POV. If "inherited" is included, then it needs more explanation: Govt debt was high during the Fraser years, and we need to look at when the debt began to be lowered.
*The line "Economists generally welcomed..." is uncited, and original research. The reference does not say "Economists generally welcomed."
Over the past month, those who added that information have made no attempt to verify it as requested. Also, there is no counterpoint, which is always needed in economic arguments. Therefore I will add a sentence of counter economic viewpoint, as put forward in this article by conservative commentator Paul Kelly.
To sum up: Glory statement should remain only if they are cited. Counter arguments need to be included.--Lester 20:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Go ahead and remove them then. Alans1977 00:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Economics section changes

message: *SMH. Howard's glimmer of hope, Peter Hartcher.
*SMH. Rudd beats PM on trust and vision (but not on economic management, according to polls), Phillip Coorey.
*SMH. Rate rise fear
*SMH. Treasury fine print reveals catalogue of cost blow-outs, Jessica Irvine.
*SMH. Tax cuts are a PM's best friend, Ross Gittins.
*SMH. Economy to accelerate, chance rate rise
*SMH. Hawke's tirade on PM's 'superior' economic record, Paul Bibby.
*SMH. Forget interest rates ad, it only ran two nights: PM, Phillip Coorey.
*SMH. Smashing the myths, Peter Hartcher.
*SMH. The treasurer is mainly pretence, Ross Gittins.
*SMH. Christmas nightmare: banks to up rates again, Danny John.
*SMH. Letter to the Editor, Paul Keating on interest rates.
--Brendan [ contribs ] 07:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Economic Management articles/refs

message: in response to Pete's comment "Who snuck these out?"; it was  who was standardising the article with other Australian PMs. Cheers, WikiTownsvillian 10:41, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do tell? Perhaps you'd like to do a little more research and maybe give the full story, hmmm? --Pete 18:31, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pete's monarchising of articles 

message: I have removed the monarch and GG list from the info box, firstly as they are not central to John Howard as a person they should not be in the infobox as a 'quick glance' summery of the subject matter, whereas the fact that he is a parliamentarian of the Liberal Party, the fact that he took over as Prime Minister from Paul Keating, etc, etc, they are relevant to the subject matter, the Monarch and Governor Generals during his term as Prime Minister are not relevant for 'at a glance' summaries of the man.  I think that this should be extended to the Deputies, which yet again are not relevant enough for the infobox.  If there was an infobox at the Premiership of John Howard article these fields might be more relevant. Those are my thoughts, cheers, WikiTownsvillian 09:10, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've restored them. PM articles have had them for a long time. You need to go one level up before making changes like this. --Pete 18:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's only been in this article because you insist on it, the consensus on every other PM bio is not to have this included. It is funny that you of all editors would say something like "you need to go one level up before making changes like this" WikiTownsvillian 20:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prermiership infobox 

message: Looking at Lester's changes, I can see that they tell only one side of the story, and that balance needs to be added. For example, John Howard locks up mad people and kids. Well, Cornelia Rau presented as a non-citizen, giving made up names. Somehow Lester doesn't think this worth mentioning. Likewise children. The fact that they were detained along with their families seems to have escaped Lester's attention. I can see an expansion of Lester's edits to restore a bit of balance, so that those without our presumed familiarity with the event of the past decade or so can get the full picture.
Better yet, how about we cut it back, provide a link to the main article, and keep everything in proportion here, allowing whoever wants to edit the main article to spread themselves around to their heart's content?
I can't say that I'm looking forward to six weeks of battling away as extremists attempt to refashion this article into a magnificent piece of election advertising, supported by opinion pieces from party staffers. And when things get tight, guerrilla tactics and IPsocks make an appearance. May I suggest that apart from major revelations (and an election campaign is a great time for such things to emerge), we frown upon any major changes to the article apart from the 2007 election campaign section? --Pete 00:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop the personal attacks.--Lester 01:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lester, thank you for confirming what I suspected, you aren't interested in stopping personal attacks, you would rather they continue.  I suggest a little bit of WP:DENY is in order here.  Shot info 01:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello Shot Info. My reply had been deleted, possibly accidentally. However, the comment I was replying to was still there. So I reverted the talk page. Your comment may have been inadvertently deleted in the reversion, which was not my intention. Thanks, --Lester 01:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mandatory detention needs expanding

message: I see an edit war has broken out. It seems some people have deleted all mention of children in detention. I can't see any justification for this. Some people (above) have said they don't like any article by Robert Manne to be used as a reference. However, when another reference by a regular news journalist which states similar facts is used, the same people are still edit waring over it. Nobody has contested the facts about how many children were in detention, or the figures used. There exists 100s of similar articles if anyone wants more references. The mandatory detention of children in detention centres was one of the biggest controversies surrounding the Howard government. To delete all mention of it does not make sense, and the reverters have not properly explained their justification for deleting everything.--Lester 01:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There really needs to be a "Prime Ministership of John Howard" article where stuff like this can go. 58.106.24.254 08:10, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikitownsvillian might have a thing or two to say about that... Timeshift 08:22, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see the usual tag-teams have formed to continue the revert war and avoid 3RR. Rather than delete referenced content, they should be here discussing their justifications for deleting it. --Lester 02:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The edit history of this talk page makes it quite clear that discussion is taking place. --Pete 02:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Revert War

message: I think it should be included, as he has a fair share of them. - 211.30.231.112 10:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy/Critisms section  

message: In the Opposition years section, the article has for a long time had an historic quote from Howard:
:I don't think it is wrong, racist, immoral or anything, for a country to say 'we will decide what the cultural identity and the cultural destiny of this country will be and nobody else'.
The actual quote is available from Hansard and a number of other sources. I think the interesting thing about the quote is its similarity with his 2001 election campaign quote:
:"We will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come."
So, both quotes have been in this article for a long time. Like them or loath them, they were said and are part of our history. Reason for bringing this up is that the lead-in sentence was changed to remove that comparison. Please view the diff here. The comparison between the two quotes was made by the newspaper articles, so its not "WP:OR" (the reason given in the edit summary). I think the previous lead-in sentence gives the quotes more relevance, and is neutral to what was said. It merely points out the similarity of the 2 quotes, made 13 years apart. I think the lead-in sentence is worth keeping --Lester 05:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here we go again. For the umpteenth time we are going to have to walk through what original research actually constitutes. Ok. Lester here it is again. Wikipedia does not care what YOU think is similiar or not similar". Wikipedia is only concerned with what we can verify using reliable sources. You can add your phrase describing how these two quotes are "similar", but you first have to show "who" thinks they are similar (again, NOT you!), "where" this opinion was published, "when" this opinion was published, and "why" this opinion is even notable in the first place. Prester John  -(Talk to the Hand) 05:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PJ is 100% right on this one. If the similarities between the two statements are notable, you must have sources which say so.  Peter Ballard 12:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The phrases from the 1988 speech and the 2001 speech both begin with the identical words "We will decide..." followed by something about those who have immigrated to the country (eg, he refers to race in the earlier one and immigration in the latter). I didn't expect that the similarity would be contested. I thought it may have been an obvious fact that there are some similarities between the statements. The source draws the connection between the two. Maybe if the lead in said:  Using the phrase "We will decide" that would be used again in 2001...--Lester 17:27, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't contest that they are similar. I contest that the similarity is worth commenting on. Remember these are two of Howard's most famous statements, about which hundreds if not thousands of articles have been written. So it's not enough to find one isolated commentator who draws a link - the observation must be reasonably widespread. Otherwise, just leave both statements in the article, and WP:NPOV#Let the facts speak for themselves.  Peter Ballard 00:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 1988 quote ''"We will decide"''...

message: Here are the reasons for changes I made to the same-sex laws section.
*Reinserted Howard's promise to end discrimination. It's plainly stated in the references that he made this promise.
*Added that discrimination continued in Commonwealth superannuation. Multiple references provided, as discrimination continues to this day.
*Removed the line: "which was extended to Commonwealth public superannuation schemes in November 2007", as it was plainly wrong, and not supported by its reference. The benefit of super inheritance was never extended to same-sex couples in Commonwealth super schemes.
*Added line "Howard banned same-sex marriage", as banned is the word used by most newspaper references.
*Added line "with the support of the Australian Labor Party", as the changes could not have passed the senate otherwise.
I feel the changes are solidly backed up by the newspaper references. Thanks, Lester 04:18, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 12 Nov, Changes

message: Since we've only got 12 day until the election its probably too late but...this is the major election issue. Therefore, I think it's worthy of inclusion does not make it worthy of inclusion. Also remember that wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a blog to highlight the good or the bad of any party or candidate. Seriously how could any editor think that a few words here are going to make any difference to how a person votes on the 24th. Please keep to notable information about John Howard(marriage stance IMHO is relevant) but election issues should go in the relevant election campaign, Government term, Department articles etc. Gnangarra 10:06, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Election Issues 

message: A drive-by (User:John) removed the flagcruft from the infobox. Skyring re-added it, and I removed it stating Well I actually agree with him. Australia is already linked. None of the previous PMs have a flag in their infobox. could be considered NPOV. 2 want it gone now, so take it to discussion for consensus. Well he reverts that, stating that as he isn't a regular John Howard article editor, that somehow his voting right of 1 as a wikipedian doesn't count? Frankly I find that offensive. Timeshift 23:58, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Flags in infoboxes are completely unnecessary. It's better without. We don't need to pepper article text with flags, as it is distracting, and maybe a form of nationalism which affects the appearance of neutrality. Also, the edit summaries are becoming uncivil, which is also unnecessary.--Lester 00:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And another revert (what happened to this new fandangled rule that if something is disputed by just one user, it goes rather than stays until it's been decided?)... Skyring has now been reported to 3RR. Have a good day. Timeshift 00:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed with above. Distracting and unecessary. Recurring dreams 00:12, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

text: WP:MOSFLAG may be of interest here. Obviously I agree that the flag adds nothing and is distracting, which was why I removed it. --John 00:14, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Per MOSFLAG - Flag images, especially flag icons in biographical infoboxes, should not be used to indicate birth or death places, as this may imply an incorrect citizenship or nationality. Nice. Can someone else revert so I don't break 3RR? Ta. Timeshift 00:15, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I concur with Lester's comments above and thus support flag removal. --Wm 01:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

text: John's reasoning clinches the case, but it should be pointed out that Skyring only did 3 reverts so he didn't violate WP:3RR. Peter Ballard 02:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag icon next to born in infobox 

message: I've been watching this page for a while now, and it seems that the vast majority of its content (and almost all of the arguments) relate to things done by the Government, not by John Howard himself. This doesn't seem to me to be what a biographical article should be about. I'd suggest moving the majority of the stuff under "First term, second term" etc, to the various Howard Ministry pages, or to a separate page entitled Howard Government, 1996-Present or something like that. Thoughts?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yeti Hunter (talk • contribs) 03:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Is this article about John Howard or his government?

message: Some editors have started reverting content about the reason Costello did not lead the party in 1995. Here's the diff of the reversion. I start this discussion out of courtesy to allow others to comment, rather than indulge in reverting each others' content.Lester 01:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wasn't my explanation clear enough? It's discussed more thoroughly in the "Leadership speculation" section. Perhaps move that paragraph, but no need to duplicate material. (Especially since the latest edit was one sided). Peter Ballard 01:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The current edit is certainly a load more well referenced than saying that Costello was 'unwilling to lead'.Alans1977 01:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The first edit stated: "The party's Deputy Leader, Peter Costello choose not to step up to the leadership, because of a deal between Howard and himself". This reference was provided. Is there a dispute that such a deal happened? Is the reference wrong?--Lester 02:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm referring to the edit that exists right now. I certainly believe quoted as it is (which is very similar to what you just referenced), is a lot more reliable. Alans1977 02:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe we should say: Peter Costello choose not to step up to the leadership, later claiming there was a deal between Howard and himself." That attributes the claim to Peter Costello.--Lester 02:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Howard disputes it was a deal. But I keep repeating: there is a balanced discussion of it, with a number of references, in the "Leadership speculation" section. I see no need to duplicate it. Perhaps say something along the lines of, "In 2006, allegations emerged that there was a deal... see Leadership speculation section". Peter Ballard 02:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Allegations"? There are two people saying there was a deal and one person saying there was not. On top of this there has been a note, written by Howard, produced to back up the fact that there was a deal. Alans1977 02:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While the evidence indeed looks to favour Costello's side of the story, that there was a deal, I still think we should attribute it to Costello. I don't think "allegation" is a good word (sounds like police talk), but it should at least say that Costello claims there was a deal, or asserts there was a deal, or something to attribute it to Costello.--Lester 03:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What we have here is a disputed version of events: 1 person says one thing, 2 say another (and the note was written by McLachlan, not Howard). I agree that it is more likely that Costello is telling the truth, but to be NPOV Wikipedia needs to record both interpretations of events. Peter Ballard 03:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case it would want to say that McLachlan claims there was a deal, as well. Alans1977 03:20, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which is exactly what is said in the John Howard#Leadership and retirement speculation section. Again I ask, why duplicate it? Peter Ballard 03:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the deal needs to be very briefly mentioned here, because the article previously said Costello was "unwilling to lead", which contradicts Costello's version of events. If we say "Costello did not challenge the leadership, citing the existence of a deal between himself and Howard", then it puts it into context. Each section should make sense without having to refer to a later section. The later section will have more detail and cite letters, and McLachlan and whatever else surrounds Howard's leadership.--Lester 03:36, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Alans1977 04:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I still don't like duplication. But so long as each mention of the affair is balanced, my objections are minor. Peter Ballard 04:38, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opposition Years: Costello "unwilling to lead" 

message: A 'POV' tag was added to the article at 02:00, 14 November 2007. I start this section so the editor can discuss the reasons for the tag, or remove the tag. Thanks, Lester 02:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That POV-tag really needs to be removed, for the reasons I mentioned. It serves no purpose, as the complainant has not started a discussion to list the reasons why the whole article is POV. Other editors can't act on it, as the article is locked. It requires an Administrator to remove the tag.--Lester 10:55, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: POV Tag

message: I know administrators aren't supposed to edit protected pages - I didn't even know this page was protected because there was only the padlock image on the article. My navigation method with my screen reader in the edit window means I miss all text above the edit box so I didn't notice the protection warning - making the text bold didn't help me at all. Anyway I stand by my edit and there is nothing controversial about a simple copyedit. Graham87 06:44, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There does not appear to be anything wrong with that edit that you made. I do not see how that could be seen to be controversial. Alans1977 (talk) 14:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  My edit 

message: In the sub-section ¨Member of Parliament¨ in the section ¨Early Life¨ the first sentance reads ¨Howard's next attempt to enter parliament was at a Federal level and successful¨. This should be edited to read ¨Howard's next attempt to enter parliament was at a Federal level and he was successful¨. As the article is locked can a administrator please make this correction. Alans1977 (talk) 14:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some corrections