Talk:Seven Against Thebes (play)

message: Were there literally only seven people fighting or seven nations?  Mr. Quertee 22:16, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seven generals of the Argive army. john k 00:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Seven'' against Thebes? 

message: It says in the body that Polynices was the cause of the entire conflict.  But wasnt it Eteoclese who broke the contract for rulling established in Oedipus' will by not giving up his turn?  So then isnt Eteoclese the cause of the entire conflict? Xlegiofalco 05:32, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polynices-the cause of the entire conflict? 

message: Do we have sources or citations for the translation of the text from the play being quoted? 
--> "who came back from exile, and sought to consume utterly with fire the city of his fathers," following. Aretemi 09:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plot summary Section 

message: Food for thought: The Argives are Greeks just as the Thebans are Greek. A school of thought has developed that Aeschylus calls the Argives "barbarians," "foreign-sounding," etc. in order to evoke the memory of Xerxes' sacking of Athens in 480. FWIW Ifnkovhg 05:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mythic content. 

message: Somebody (who evidently also visited the Aeschylus article) was way off in describing the play's spurious ending. I've corrected it. The new ending of the Septem leads up to the plot of Antigone, but does not contain that plot. Big difference. Also, there is some debate (see Donald Mastronarde's Phoenissae commentary) as to whether Megareus in Aeschylus and Sophocles = Menoeceus in Euripides. I.e., in Aeschylus, Megareus dies in battle, and Sophocles is ambiguous in the matter. Menoeceus kills himself in Euripides. Megareus and Menoeceus might have been conflated at some point, but when? They are separate characters in (e.g.) Statius' Thebaid (1ct cent CE) Ifnkovhg (talk) 00:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Corrected the plot description. 

message: This article seems to be about the myth of the Seven Against Thebes in general, not about Aeschylus's play.  Shouldn't we separate the play into its own article? john k (talk) 04:19, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure. To me, Seven against Thebes means the Aeschylus play. If the myth requires separate treatment (i.e., there are significant sources besides Aeschylus), it should probably be at a different title. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:25, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course there are other sources.  There's the lost Thebaid from the epic cycle, of which fragments and perhaps synopses exist.  There's Statius's Thebaid (although the extent to which that should be considered a source on mythology, rather than a literary work based on mythology, might be in question - but the same could be said of the works of the tragedians, as well, which frequently disagree with each other when they treat the same theme).  There's occasional references in Homer.  There's Sophocles's Oedipus at Colonus and Antigone.  There's Euripides' Phoenician Women and Suppliants.  There's Apollodorus.  There may be some material in other sources, as well (Pausanias?  Hyginus?) john k (talk) 21:14, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: With the exception of Statius and Apollodorus, I'm not sure that these are narratives of the seven's attempt to sack Thebes, and one could argue that Statius and Apollodorus are not exactly "myth". But there certainly seems to be good reason to have an article or section of an article about the expedition of the seven--I don't think it's this article, though. As I said, when I hear "Seven Against Thebes" I think of the play, and not the myth(s) we can get out of the sources you list. I wonder if there should be a myths of Thebes or something, where this material can be collected and catalogued. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:36, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Apollodorus is a redactor of myths.  If he's not myths, then there are no direct mythological accounts of the Twelve Labors of Hercules, for instance, or of Perseus's slaying of Medusa.  And Euripides's Phoenician women is about as directly about the war as Aeschylus's play, from what I can gather.  I would agree that "Seven Against Thebes" probably best for the play, but that's not what the article does not say that Seven Against Thebes is a play by Aeschylus.  It says it's a mythological story whose classic form is the play by Aeschylus.  This is like if we had an article Oedipus which was both about Oedipus and about Sophocles's Oedipus Rex. john k (talk) 01:23, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's hardly surprising that a Wikipedia article isn't what it should be. Someday I'll try to fix this, but I don't think it's going to be this week. If we agree that this article is about the Aeschylus play, under what title should we put the other material on the seven? --Akhilleus (talk) 01:26, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My preference would be to have this article at Seven Against Thebes (play) and to have Seven Against Thebes deal with the myth more broadly.  I'm not sure how else to title the generic article. john k (talk) 04:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Paul August ☎ 14:33, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I've given this some more thought recently, and done some research on this issue. From what I've seen, the way this is handled elsewhere is the refer to the play as "Seven Against Thebes", and the seven champions who fought Thebes as the "Seven against Thebes". I propose that we do the same. And in fact Wikipedia already has an article at "Seven against Thebes" which is currently a redirect to this article.  thoughts? Paul August ☎ 14:55, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Play or myth 

message: On the page of Adrastus it states:
Thus arose the celebrated war of the Seven against Thebes, in which Adrastus was joined by six other heroes, Polynices, Tydeus, Amphiaraus, Capaneus, Hippomedon, and Parthenopaeus. Instead of Tydeus and Polynices other legends mention Eteoclos and Mecisteus. 
On the Seven Against Thebes page it states:
The Seven Against Thebes were:
Eteoclus
Amphiaraus
Capaneus
Hippomedon
Parthenopeus
Polynices
Tydeus
Allies:
Eteoclus and Mecisteus. Some sources, however, state that Eteoclus and Mecisteus were in fact two of the seven, and that Tydeus and Polynices were allies. This is because both Tydeus and Polynices were foreigners. However, Polynices was the cause of the entire conflict, and Tydeus performed acts of valour far surpassing Eteoclus and Mecisteus. Either way, all nine men were present (and killed) in the battle, save Adrastus.
Where Eteoclus is at the top of the Seven Against Thebes list should that not be Adrastus?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.69.29.130 (talk) 12:16, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adastus/Eteoclus.