Talk:A and an

message: Any objection to merging this into the article (grammar) article? It's currently lacking this info. DJ Clayworth 15:43, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes! There is information here that's not relevant to articles, such as the three-dollars-a-kilo usage. O'course, it's been some months since you said that, so you may no longer be interested in trying, but still. —Felix the Cassowary (ɑe hɪː jɐ) 09:46, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Favoring merge. The has already been merged on the grounds that Wikipedia is not a dictionary, leaving the article article rather lopsided. --SlothMcCarty (talk) 19:00, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: This article says that there was once a form "norange"in english. However, the article about the word orange says that the n was lost before it reached the english language. does anybody know which article is right
:http://www.dictionary.com/ gives (from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition) a definition that agrees with the latter, saying n was dropped by the time it reached Old Italian.
::-Dictionary.com says it was lost before, the wiki article on Junctural Metanalysis, and the wiki on Orange (Fruit) also both agree. I'm removing the reference to norage, since there seems to be no basis for it, and a lot of basis against it. -69.160.169.147
:::Same thing but opposite happened with "An ewt." --Macarion 05:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  (n)orange 

message: Would it be safe to say that 'an' is used before most acronyms. More specifically when the acronyms are spelled when said. For example 'an SAT score' would use an, but 'a RAM chip' would use a because ram is spoken as one word. Can anyone research this a bit?
--Zdude255 23:31, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The rules for acronyms are exactly the same for normal words: If the first sound is a vowel, then you get 'an', otherwise you get 'a'. Hence (in addition to your observations), "a TER score" because you say "tee-ee-aar"; "a US company" because you say "you-ess". Also, some acronyms are written-only, and they're meant to be expanded when read, such as "a SO" because you say "a significant other" (or so the present author intends :). There is some variation; for instance, I pronounce the name of the letter H as 'haitch', so I say "a HTML document". Others who are unfamiliar with my usage might think I intended it to be said "a hypertext markup-language document". —Felix the Cassowary (ɑe hɪː jɐ) 00:24, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Perhaps this clarification can be added somewhere in the article. Currently it is not definitive. For instance, the article doesn't explicitly state whether you would write "an MBA" or "a MBA". Convention would suggests 'an' is appropriate because of the pronunciation "em-bee-ay". Begaddy 22:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Acronyms 

message: Humungous is slang? Informal perhaps, but that is not the same as being slang, is it? DLCinMaine 21:41, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a name. Lord Humongous. Trepan 16:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Humungous 

message: :Another example is that "an orange" used to be written "a norange" (cf. Spanish naranja), until the 'n' shifted from the beginning of the noun to the end of the article.
This thing just never dies, does it? Once and for all: the word has always been "orange" in English, and never "norange". See the above discussion as well. I've tried to debunk it explicitly in the article. JRM · Talk 17:11, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A norange, again 

message: Many British usage books, therefore, discount a usage which some Americans (amongst others) employ as being a derivative of the Cockney.
Which usage?  Using "an" before words that start with "h"?  In that case I'd say it should be just "Many British usage books, therefore, discount this usage as being derivative of the Cockney."  The way it is is ambiguous in both "a usage" and "employ as being a derivative of the Cockney".  I know that isn't why Americans (and others) employ the usage, but... ;)
I can't find anything about it in the Manual of Style, but the plural of the letter "h" is spelled "h's" and "h"s in two different places in the article.  In fact, should letters be in double or single quotes?
Hence "an" may be seen in such phrases as "an historic", "an heroic", and "an hôtel of excellence" was the by-line in an advertisement in a New York City newspaper.
Presumably only the last was printed in a New York City newspaper (which one, anyway?  I think we should either cite completely, or not at all, as these are just linguistic examples and it's fine for them to be invented), in which case the part after the last comma is a whole sentenced smashed onto the end of a list.  Furthermore, was it printed as "an hôtel"?  Then it should be in the section about French-derived words.  And one more thing: I've never heard by-line used that way.  As far as I know it only means the name and position of the writer (see byline).
Just wanted to run these things by people who may be able to confirm them before I make the changes. --Galaxiaad 01:04, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These confusing sentences have been here for 18 months since the last comments.  May I remove it?  dbfirs 15:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  A few confusing bits 

message: The article states that "an" is used before a vowel sound, but this is not entirely true. The word "early" starts with a sonorant consonant [ɹ], not a vowel, but you would still say "an early morning," not "a early morning." A better definition would be that "an" is used before syllables without onsets. --Runner5k 11:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I couldn't read which IPA character you wrote, but looking up Wikipedia, you seem to mean an Alveolar approximant, one of a number of "r"-like sounds. I can't help to think that, if this is true, it seems to be limited to certain dialects, I don't think I have ever heard that pronunciation, either in General American or Received Pronunciation. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 17:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I did mean an alveolar approximant. I'm not an expert in phonetics, but I am almost certain that, at least in General American pronunciation, this consonant is pronounced as a syllabic consonant in many common words, such as fur, her, girl, and early. This web site gives a good explanation of this, using the website "Flickr" as one example. (The second syllable of "Flickr" contains a syllabic alveolar approximant.) --Runner5k 19:02, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So you mean the "ear" part is a syllabic consonant, in itself? 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 11:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, at least that's how I understand it. --Runner5k 10:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My logic would claim otherwise, but linguistics isn't always a science that makes logical sense to me, besides, I'm not a native English speaker. Anyway, I'd claim the first sound in "early" is [ɜː], without any consonantal r, i.e. not "'r". Further input from anyone else, more knowledged in the matter? 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 16:20, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The standard US and UK pronunciation of 'early' is ˈɝli, though it sometimes pronounced as ˈɝɹli. It is never correctly pronounced in the manner suggested by Runner5k; such a pronunciation would resemble certain dialectal pronunciations of the word 'really'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 20:33, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "An" is not only before vowel sounds 

message: Compare "I have a little trouble with my kids" versus "I have little trouble with my kids." In context, the two sentences have virtually opposite meanings, though the difference lies entirely in the presence or absence of the indefinite article. I wonder what mechanism is going on here, and whether it can be mentioned in the article. marbeh raglaim 15:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, this comes under used of little.  dbfirs 15:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another use of "a/an" 

message: Does 'a' or 'an' come before 'historian?' After watching a Star Trek episode where a character said "I'm a doctor, not an historian," I've used 'an.' However, my professor took points off one of my essays, stating that I used the incorrect article. She said that in 'historian,' the 'h' is audible, so therefore, one must use 'a' as the article. Is she right? Ye Olde Luke 02:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd agree with your professor, although I'm not a native speaker, and not aware of all the differences between different accents and dialects... 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 20:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

text: This is explained in the article.  Either is correct, depending on whether you pronounce the "h" or not.  In Kent of old, they did'nt; the Star Trek doctor didn't; but the professor evidently knew that User:Ye Olde Luke does pronounce the "h" in historian.  dbfirs 15:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: An historian?

message: This perennial problem came up recently here. I gave this response, which is from my original research (I adapt it slightly):
::Strictly, the implicit traditional rule seems to go like this:
::A before all consonant sounds, including /h/, /j/, /hj/, and /w/; an in all other cases. Except that an may be substituted before /h/ (and possibly before /hj/) if the first syllable of the word bears a weaker stress than the second syllable.
::This successfully accounts for all of these usages (which are quite typical in some traditional styles):
::*a history
::*an historical occasion
::*a hysterectomy [primary stress on 3rd syllable; secondary on 1st]
::*an hysterical response
::*an honest woman
::*a home-made bomb
::*a homiletic monologue
::*an homologous structure
::*a human emotion
::*a[n] humanity that is respectful of the non-human [an is less likely]
::*a[n] humane gesture [an is less likely]
::*a[n] humanitarian gesture
::*a[n] hubristic proposal [with /hj/ pronounced]
::*a unity
::*a "oui" instead of a "non"
::Needless to say (but I shall), these forms will be disputed. Of course there has always been great variation. In the KJV Bible you get an hundred, and this occurs even in Jane Austen.
--There is no way one would use "an" before a word beginning with the sounds "h" and "y," as in "humanity."
I wonder what thorough and respectable resources can be found that deal exhaustively with this?
– Noetica♬♩ Talk 23:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Usage has changed with pronunciation over time, and it also varies with regional pronunciation, so it is impossible to give a list of correct usages (I would argue with historical, hysterical, homologous and all the [n]s, but that reflects my pronunciation of these words, and I would accept Noetica's list if I heard Noetica's pronunciation).  Two of the most thorough and respectable dictionaries in the world: Merriam-Webster, and the Oxford English Dictionary both give exactly the same guidance which is the same as that given in the article.  Briefly, it is this: if you pronounce the "h" use "a"; if you don't pronounce the "h" use "an". This simple rule is sufficient for all words beginning with "h".  dbfirs 16:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but this rule gives a wrong result for humanity, humane and humanitarian. If you pronounce them without h, the pronunciation of the word will still start with a consonant – [j], like unique (or unity, which has initial stress). Therefore an humanity, an humane and an humanitarian are always incorrect, and an hubristic is, too. Just stick to "if your pronunciation starts with a vowel, use an, else a", the simplest, most basic and historically correct (original) rule. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 11:41, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  An h-, again 

message: What is the strong pronunciation of a? Is it "ei" as in "hate" or "a" as pronounced in "hat"?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.151.83.161 (talk) 21:03, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: a as in hate.
The pronunciation is dependant on the phonetics of what follows the "a".  It is not always the same sound.  Note that this question pertains to speech, not to writing.  I'm unaware of any situation where the correct sound matches the sound from the word "hate", except when reference is made to the letter itself.  Here are three URLs with a similar opinion:
http://www.faqs.org/qa/qa-18587.html
http://www.azargrammar.com/teacherTalk/blog/labels/articles.html
http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic34906.html
--kernel.package  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.211.232.220 (talk) 01:05, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: Nothing on the etymology of "a"? The article mentions where "an" comes from, but doesn't actually say where "a" came from. I assume it was just the dropped of the N on "an," but the article never states it one way or the other. And since this is the article about "a"/"an" as the indefinite article in English (see the header of A), I believe it would be appropriate to discuss here. RobertM525 (talk) 21:08, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's really simple: the Old English form ān (cognate to German ein, Latin ūnus and others) split into two words depending on stress – one is the result of the stressed variant, an the result of the unstressed variant. Before consonants, an ended up losing the n, so an is the older variant. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 11:48, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: The Owl at Purdue University has one of the better explanations for deciding whether to use "a" or "an".  In short, the difference is determined by the phonetics of the word that follows, which is unlike most rules.  Most rules seem to be based on spelling.  The Purdue link that addresses this particular conundrum is here:
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/591/01/.  -- kernel.package  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.211.232.220 (talk) 00:46, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Our Wikipedia article has a better explanation than the Owl at Purdue's article. See the text in the section "Discrimination between a and an". The Purdue article mentions nothing about the glottal stop which is the fundamental determining phonetic rule in the choice between a and an. Cadae (talk) 06:57, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  External References 

message: I can't think of a proper word for the example, so I'll use a name for one.
Say you had a word spelt "Evil".
But it was pronounced (And I know this is unlikely wherever, but hypothetically) "Jarvil" ('Jar' as in "a glass jar" and 'vil' pronounced like in "village", if it has any impact). Really, this would benefit from a proper example (surely one exists), but anyhow.
Would you say "an Evil" or "a Evil"? Which has priority, the spelling or pronunciation?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sgtlion (talk • contribs) 15:30, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the article, in particular, see the rule under "Discrimination between a and an". It is determined by pronunciation, not by spelling convention. Cadae (talk) 07:00, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronounce or Spell, that is the question 

message: Both a and an for homage. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/07/magazine/07FOB-onlanguage-t.html?ref=onlanguage. Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 14:44, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homage 

message: It seems to me this page adds nothing to the information at English articles, except for various uncited and weird statements that have been successfully expunged from that other page. Given that noone seems to be working on it, can we put it back to bed and make this title a redirect to that page (as it happily was for a long time)? Victor Yus (talk) 09:38, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Why this page?