Talk:Kelly Kettle

message: Article merged: See old talk-page talk:Thermette  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fremte (talk • contribs) 02:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Some talk

message: The kettles described in this article and Thermette are simply manufactured from different materials (copper versus aluminum) and have a slight different shape (cylinder versus cone). The only reason not to merge would be brand name support. The alternative is that each manufacturer has a different page. We'll let this sit for a little while, but then, unless there is some reason not to, a merge should occur. Fremte (talk) 17:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Merge complete after a month and no discussion. Fremte (talk) 02:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: Deadlink.  The policy is to tag deadlinks not delete them.  This allows them to be repaired later. See . 
Insertion of trademark info.  There are multiple manufacturers of these kettles and tagging each of the various names with copyright info is not the solution.  We might consider a generic label of "storm kettle" and a new section of modified section on "manufacturers".  -Fremte (talk) 20:43, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  recent edit by Sharon Cawley 

message: The following was posted to my talk page, and I am placing it here so as to involve the community with this. --Fremte (talk) 15:39, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no evidence that "Kelly kettle" has been in general use for more than ten years; the oldest mention of either in Google Books is from The Cybergypsies, a book on popular culture which uses "storm kettle" as though it were already well known. Another quote is "The storm kettle (also known as the Kelly kettle) is in regular use" from a book called The Woodland Year, from 2007. This is probably current usage; I see no case to adopt a trademark - especially since it could be seen as advertising (and might, in the long run, weaken the trademark, as with aspirin). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

text: I didn't find much for references in a ggle search with Benghasi with an "s", more with a "z" as in Benghazi Boiler.  In terms of commercial names, it may be that "Thermette" has precidence, and I agree that a non-trademarked name is the right idea.   This page has it  invented in 1929 in New Zealand.  There is talk of patent there, but haven't found that yet.  So you may on to the solution to this article's name.  Let's see what other discussion and info comes. --Fremte (talk) 01:35, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name of article 

message: I am not particularly familiar with using Wikipedia so apologies if this message comes across in the wrong format etc.
I write to you regarding my company and brand Kelly Kettle® (Also Known as the Volcano Kettle®).  Both of the aforementioned brands are our registered Trademarks in the E.U., Canada & the U.S.  We have invested considerable funds over recent years to vigourously protect our IP rights as copies of our kettles occasionally appear on the market and the producers of these copies invariably try and sell under our Trademarks on E-Bay, Amazon, etc. 
Our company has been trading for four generations and our products continue to grow in popularity every year.  We ship to vitually every country in the world and are proud of our long established brand.
The purpose of this correspondence is to ascertain as to why it is that a Wikipedia search for our Global Brand Kelly Kettle causes the visitor to land on a page titled 'Storm Kettle'.  
The 'Storm Kettle' is a UK based brand which is much smaller than our Brand.
The 'Storm Kettle' is a direct copy of our product and the brand is only about 10yrs old.  This fact is undisputable as, the current director of the Eydon Kettle Company who provide the 'Storm Kettle', used to be a Director of the Kelly Kettle Company until he was removed from the company approximately 10yrs ago. It was then that a competing business/brand i.e. the 'Storm Kettle' was born.....i.e. the 'Storm Kettle' brand arrived decades after the Kelly Kettle.
The 'Storm Kettle' is a Registered Trademark in the UK only. The Brand is not widely known outside of the UK and it is not registered in any other jurisdiction which confirms my assertion that they trade very little outside of the UK.How 'Storm Kettle' came to be used as a Generic Name I do not know.  I removed the redirect on 'Kelly Kettle' a few days ago but it is back again.  I find it intensely frustrating (to put it mildly!) that our long established and well protected, global brand, is treated as a afterthought to a much much smaller and UK based Brand. If anything, the Article page should be titled Kelly Kettle with any searches for 'Storm Kettle' redirecting to the more Generic 'Kelly Kettle' article.I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on this matter.  I know that Wikipedia is an extremely popular and important source of information for Millions of users every day.  Therefore, it is of utmost importance to my company, that our Brand is given the recognition that it duly deserves.I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience.Thanking you in advance. Knockmoregaa (talk) 00:07, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no evidence that "Kelly kettle" has been in general use for more than ten years; the oldest mention of either in Google Books is from The Cybergypsies, a book on popular culture which uses "storm kettle" as though it were already well known. Another quote is "The storm kettle (also known as the Kelly kettle) is in regular use" from a book called The Woodland Year, from 2007. This is probably current usage; I see no case to adopt a trademark - especially since it could be seen as advertising (and might, in the long run, weaken the trademark, as with aspirin). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kelly Kettle - redirecting to smaller Brand of 'storm kettle' 

message: * If the name of an inanimate or non-human entity is disputed by two
jurisdictions and one or more English-language equivalents exists, use the
most common English-language name.
*Identification of common names using external references.
A number of methods can be used to identify which of a pair (or more) conflicting names is the most prevalent in English.
*The Google test. Using Google's advanced search option, search for each conflicting name and confine the results to pages written in English; also exclude the word "Wikipedia" (as we want to see what other people are using, not our own usage). Note which is the most commonly used term
# Google Test - 'Storm kettle' dries up about Page 15 (using 20 listings per page) (approx 281-300 results) and many of the entries on the previous pages refer to Kelly Kettle / Storm Kettles in the same entries with more starting to make referenece to a different product altogether - the 'Storm'Electric Kettle. 'Kelly Kettle' search goes to Page 34 (again 20 listings per page) before the search starts to get muddled with other items. (approx 661-680 results)
#Have checked with https://adwords.google.com/select/KeywordTool to compare the numbers of 'Google' Searches for the different *Trademarks.  results are as follows:
##'Kelly Kettle' = averaged 9,900pm over past year (118,800 pa)
##'Volcano Kettle' = averaged 1,900pm over past year (22,800 pa)
##'Storm Kettle' = averaged 2,900pm over past year (34,800 pa)
##Together, our 'Kelly' & 'Volcano' Brands had 141,600 searches as opposed to 34,800 searches for the 'Storm' brand (4 times as many)
##www.kellykettle.com enjoys a Google Page Rank of 8/10 whereas www.eydonkettle.com (stormkettle website) is only ranked as 3/10.  
PageRank is a numeric value that represents how important a page is on the web.  The higher the ranking, the more important that Google perceives the page.
The wording on the existing article is written in a Neutral Manner to which I am agreeable.  However, based on the overwhelming evidence provided above, coupled with a mountain of empirical evidence, I am adamant that the the article in wikipedia and current re-direct is a gross injustice to the Kelly Kettle and lends unacceptable Brand support to a small trademark which can lay no claim whatsoever to been the 'Generic name' for our type of kettles. I respectfully suggest that the article should be changed back to its original name Kelly Kettle with any searches for 'Storm Kettle' redirecting to the 'Kelly Kettle' article page.  The existing wording on the page is neutral so a couple of minor edits would be all that is required to complete the correction.I look forward to hearing back from you and to your assistance in this matter.Kind regards,--Knockmoregaa (talk) 15:01, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no evidence that "Kelly kettle" has been in general use for more than ten years; the oldest mention of either in Google Books is from The Cybergypsies, a book on popular culture which uses "storm kettle" as though it were already well known. Another quote is "The storm kettle (also known as the Kelly kettle) is in regular use" from a book called The Woodland Year, from 2007. This is probably current usage; I see no case to adopt a trademark - especially since it could be seen as advertising (and might, in the long run, weaken the trademark, as with aspirin). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: I have consulted with the following link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NCON

message: I'd like to suggest that the proper article name should be "Benghasi Boiler"; this would infringes on and use none of the trademarks, is somewhat historically accurate, and all of them (Thermette, Storm Kettle, Kelly Kettle, ...) can be redirected to that name. Otherwise, we're going to have a parade of makers wanting it retitled. Which of the companies has the best internet search presence is something for them to worry about; we shouldn't be enlisted into one camp or the other or yet another (we seem to have already be guilty of that in the merge, but a move to Benghasi Boiler would redeem that failing.) The assertion that the difference between the cone shaped chimney and the straight chimney is minor may be true, but it appears to be patentable. We don't need to go into the "better or not" of that; notice and describe the differences (without OR), and let them advertise elsewhere. htom (talk) 19:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't find much for references in a ggle search with Benghasi with an "s", more with a "z" as in Benghazi Boiler.  In terms of commercial names, it may be that "Thermette" has precidence, and I agree that a non-trademarked name is the right idea.   This page has it  invented in 1929 in New Zealand.  There is talk of patent there, but haven't found that yet.  So you may on to the solution to this article's name.  Let's see what other discussion and info comes. --Fremte (talk) 01:35, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proper article name 

message: with all searches for the various items redirecting there.The Kelly/Volcano Kettle has been widely used in the North West of Ireland since the 1890's.  The earliest mention I can find in common Print was in "Fishing & Thinking" by A.A. Luce, First Published 1959 (chapter IX 'A day on Lough Conn' refers).  Given that there are similar items from various parts of the worlds (some more popular or commonly known than others) it seems apparent that there can be no consensus on Generic Term for these items that will not: (A) Potentially infringe on IP Rights and potentially weaken a well known brand in the long term by causing a genericized trademark issue (as with asprin or the Hoover Company as correctly pointed out earlier by wiki/User:Pmanderson) 
(B) Lend unfair Brand support to one Brand/company over another.All of the Brands can redirect to a new Camping Kettle page where they can have their own little piece (protecting TM etc. accordingly).--Knockmoregaa (talk) 23:41, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not ideal, since this article is currently about a certain kind of camping kettle that has an interior space for hot air, not camping kettles in general, but I think it's better than the currently proposed options. The article would need to be expanded/rewritten to include all major types of camping kettles. -kotra (talk) 00:02, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that there is no existing article covering Camping kettle, then yes, doing a reverse-takeover might be the solution...  I'd be happy with this as a suggestion.  —Sladen (talk) 06:11, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

text: don't support "camping kettle". The term is not used at all to describe these devices.  If a merely descriptive name is the ultimate solution, then at least "chimney kettle" provides some description, though it is also an invented name.  Not sure that there are other types of camping kit that fit within the more general idea of "camping kettle" either.  The Benghazi Boiler is the highest listed of non-trade marked items.  So it is a competitor too.  This is a puzzle about what the best solution is!  I think we're making progress. --Fremte (talk) 18:27, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What I'm suggesting is this article be expanded to all types of camping kettles, not just the "chimney kettle" variety. Take a look at this to see other types of kettles used for camping; the Kelly Kettle can be found on the third page (at least, for me). -kotra (talk) 20:13, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Propose renaming article 'Camping Kettles'

message: These so called camping kettles appear to be just stove top kitchen kettles retitled camping for the sake of selling them.  Does not look like there really is a legitimate item actually called camping kettle except with this sales purpose.  These storm kettle water boilers look like they are sleeker versions of Samovar.  It'd make better sense to have these items as a subtype of Samovar which also have a central chimney where fire heats water.  The only differences are a water tap on the side of the water chimney in place of a pour spout near or on top, the fanciness of the construction and maybe Russian tea snobbery & various little Czarist accessories.  So how about redirect to a sub-heading of Samovar.  These storm kettles are actually "camping samovars"!!'.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.17.132.50 (talk) 03:38, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: On this basis, I've added  and .  —Sladen (talk) 17:43, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a section at Samovar about this, link in this section's title and here. --Fremte (talk) 00:58, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Let's see what other's think of this new idea! --Fremte (talk) 00:58, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is what I wrote on the talk:Samovar page:
"I'm going to support this. The Storm kettle article is being editted a bit and once it is a stable version, the move should occur in my opinion. Probably with a heading of Camping versions or similar. " --Fremte (talk) 21:41, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

text: This sounds like a good idea. It's not a perfect match, but the two topics are similar enough. Support merge to Samovar. -kotra (talk) 03:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggested merge to [[Samovar]], see [[talk:Samovar#Merge_from_Storm_kettle_suggestion |this talk]]

message: I have combined the description of the series of kettles which appear very similar: Kelly, Volcano, Storm, Ghillie.  There is not jsutification other than advertising that I can think of which would suggest seperate sections for each company which makes essentially the same device. We should not accept details that apepar to just promote one company.  --Fremte (talk) 01:22, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite, combining sections 

message: Since there doesn't seem to be any consensus above on a name change, and since it seems that the discussion has leaned more towards a merge, I've removed the  tag above.  If anyone wants to refile the move request if the merge discussion doesn't work out, please go ahead.--Aervanath (talk) 14:35, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed from [[WP:RM]] 

message: *  Kettle/Chimney/Volcano Stoves part way down the page.
* Ned kettle --Fremte (talk) 19:47, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Created redirects: Kelly stove, Chimney stove, Volcano stove, Ned Kettle. -kotra (talk) 20:24, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional links

message: Mention of the Rocket stove seems completely unrelated to the rest of the article. A rocket stove does not use a water jacket
* Earlier examples of water heaters using a water jacket include heavier samovar tea urns from Eastern, Central, and Southeastern Europe, as well as the Middle East. The rocket stove, used to heat a cooking pot was created in the 1980s and are available as light-weight portable units.
And a rocket stove is not based in any way on the kelly-kettle
* A modified version of the idea was created by the Eydon Kettle Company in the early 1970s and sold as the 'Storm Kettle'.[6] Fixed (and portable) rocket stoves used for cooking were developed in 1980s;[7] with variants for heating water[8] and for space heating.[9]
Rocket stoves are great, but replace rocket stoves with Franklin stoves or propane stoves and you'll see how out of place those sentences are.
It either needs to be deleted or reworded to not imply a rocket-stove is water-jacket/derivative.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.147.149.61 (talk) 05:40, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rocket stove mention is disconnected 

message: this forum posting claims volcano is the generic term for this type of kettle, and that it was trademarked in 2007 by the company that makes the Kelly Kettle. Another posted proposed 'for encyclopedic purposes, is "chimney kettle." Rather than relying on brand names or even the metaphorical "volcano" or "storm,"
I think this is a capital idea :)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.139.49.13 (talk) 05:46, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Another purely-descriptive name might be "stack-effect kettle".  This (so far) has zero hits on Google, but is possibly better than even the previous generic suggestion of "chimney kettle".  —Sladen (talk) 10:27, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  retitle article Chimney kettle 

message: It's understandable to consider the rights of an IP owner who attempts to assert their ownership of a trademarked name.  However, it also appears that the legitimacy of the trademarked name in question is dubious due to prior art (Specifically, The Sirram Volcano Quick Boil Kettle, Regd Td Mk, Registered Design No 731794', registered in 1928)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.186.99.100 (talk) 06:52, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't been able to find an original copy of the Design Registration.  Has anyone had success in finding it (eg. British Library).  —Sladen (talk) 10:25, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious ownership of the Volcano Kettle trademark 

message: I note that there has been significant discussion regarding the name of this article. It is currently listed as Kelly Kettle. When searching for 'Ghillie Kettle', one of the top listings shows 'Kelly Kettle' within the results via Wikipedia. This offers a huge advantage to Kelly Kettles and a significant disadvantage to the other manufactures.
The Ghillie Kettle history page provides proof that the kettles were originally called ‘Sirram Volcano Kettles’. A more generic name is “chimney kettle” (details here: https://www.ghillie-kettle.co.uk/history).
I note in a previous discussion, Kelley states they have the highest rankings, etc. If we are arguing what the page should be called based on ‘clout’ the Ghillie Kettle company has recently been aired on the Discovery Channel (UK and overseas) and ITV’s ‘How it’s Made’. However, it is my (admittedly limited) understanding that is not how this site should work.
It seems wholly unfair that the kettles are all labelled under the brand of Kelly Kettle. Could this please be reviewed?
Kez2231camping (talk) 15:03, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request to revisit page name 

message: This article talks of the kettle being invented in england in the late 1920’s despite opening with the fact that the Kelly Kettle was invented in Ireland in the early 1900’s. 2A01:B340:63:1400:41B:2927:FD37:A657 (talk) 17:04, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lies, damned lies.