Talk:Ilya Ehrenburg

message: thumb|Krasnaya Zvezda (Red Star) 24 July 1942 (№173 [5236])
I am not going to spoil your good Encyclopedia and edit the text with my broken English... Just 2 kopecks from a Russian:
Krasnaya Zvezda (Red Star) 24 July 1942 (№173 [5236]) 
Kill him.
Here are excerpts from 3 letters found on the body of German soldiers:
Administer Raingardt writes to lieutenant Otto Von Shirak:
"They have withdrewed Frenchmen from us to the plant.  I has chosen six Russians from the Minsk district. They are much more hardy than Frenchmen. Only one of them died, the rest continue to work in the field and on the farm.  They costs nothing  and we shouldh't  suffer that these beasts (their children may be kill our soldier) eat German bread. Yesterday I put to the flogging two Russian beasts who surreptitiously have devoured a skim milk intended for pigs..."
Mateas Zimlih writes to his brother, lance bombardier Henrih Zimlih:
"In the Laiden there is an encampment for Russians. It's possible to see them there.  They do not afraid of weapons, but we talk with them with a good lash..."
Otto Essman writes to lieutenant Helmut Vagand:
"There is Russian POWs here. These blokes devour the rain worms on the aerodrome, they snap at slop-pail. I saw, as they eat weeds. Just fancy that these ... are people..."
The slaveowners, they want to turn our people into slaves. They export Russians to Germany, torment them, drive them mad with hunger so much so that the dying people eat herbs, worms. And a dratted German with a rotten cigar in the teeths philosophizes: "Are they people?.."
We know all. We remember all. We have understood: the Germans are not human beings. From now on the word German means to use the most terrible oath. From now on the word German discharges a rifle. We shall not speak any more. We shall not be indignant. We shall kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you have wasted that day. If you think that instead of you your comrade will kill a German, you do not realize the threat. If you will not kill a German, the German will kill you. He will capture your relatives and will torment them in his cursed Germany. If you cannot kill your German with a bullet, kill him with your bayonet. If there is calm on your part of the front, or if you are waiting for the fighting, kill a German in the meantime. If you leave a German alive, the German will hang a Russian and rape a Russian woman. If you kill one German, kill another -- there is nothing more amusing for us than a heap of German corpses. Do not count days, do not count kilometers. Count only the number of Germans killed by you. Kill the German -- that is your grandmother's request. Kill the German -- that is your child's prayer. Kill the German -- that is your motherland's loud request. Do not miss. Do not let through. Kill 
http://www.sscadm.nsu.ru/deps/hum/reader/ehrenburg/004.html - original in Russian.
A necessary coment to the article: In this article the word German (in Russian - "nemec") means German male i.e soldier. In original Russian text the word "nemec" (German) is a masculine noun. He called to kill German soldiers not civilians. Ehrenburg wrote the article in 1942 when there were no any other Germans on the Soviet soil but soldiers.
The Soviet Command and Soviet Authorities and Soviet Media never order or call for raping and pillage or something. Just the contrary, Soviet Command issued special orders against revenge, and thousands of Soviet soldiers were punished. During first months of 1945 only number of officers prosecuted for violence towards German population exceeded 4000. 
Nekto
I wish also to clarify this paragraph in the wiki-article:
 Other historians challenge Ehrenburg's authorship of the infamous "Kill"-leaflet. Their arguments are based on the absence of known original Soviet copies of the leaflet from archives and an article by the alleged author in the Krasnaya Zvezda dated November 24, 1944 in which Ehrenburg explicitly denies his authorship of the "Kill" leaflet. [2] (German) A few historians even claim the "Kill" leaflet to be a fabrication of the Nazi Propagandaministerium, invented to strengthen the German resistance during the final months of the war. 
There is a confusion. The leaflet mention there was a Nazi fake. It also called “Kill” but has another words:
"Kill! Kill! In the German race there is nothing but evil; not one among the living, not one among the yet unborn but is evil! Follow the precepts of Comrade Stalin. Stamp out the fascist beast once and for all in its lair! Use force and break the racial pride of these Germanic women. Take them as your lawful booty. Kill! As you storm onward, kill, you gallant soldiers of the Red Army."
http://www.natvan.com/free-speech/fs983a.html
These words never were written by Ehrenburg. And in his article “Blonde witch” (title hints to Blonde beast = ubermensh) in the Krasnaya Zvezda dated November 25, 1944 Ehrenburg wrote:
"There was a time, when Germans used to fake important documents of state. Now they have fallen so low as to fake my articles. The quotes that German general ascribed to me betrayed their’s author: only the German is able to make up this dirty"
Nekto 19:49, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Ehrenburg article 

message: There is a detailed analysis and discussion (in Russian) on this very subject on the following web pages:
http://labas.livejournal.com/301205.html
http://labas.livejournal.com/301410.html
http://labas.livejournal.com/301740.html
One particular bit I have translated here:
London weekly "Soviet War News" for the most part printed translations from Soviet Informbureau and articles from leading Soviet papers, including articles of Ehrenburg. On December 7, 1944 it printed the following text: "We need none of these flaxen-haired hyenas. We are coming to Germany for something else - for Germany. And these particular flaxen-haired witches will not easily escape us."
This article gives reason for modern English-speaking readers to accuse Ehrenburg of racism for the phrase "flaxen-haired" and to ask a rhethorical question, "Finally, the words "will not easily escape us" could be construed as an incitement to violence against German women. What is it that Erenburg thought German women could not escape?" 
The problem is, however, that in the original article published in the "Red Star" 25 of November 1994 there are no "witches" in plural. It says, "We need none of these flaxen-haired hyenas. We are coming to Germany for something else - for Germany. And this particular flaxen-haired witch will not easily escape us."
75.84.102.227 05:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would add that "flaxen-haired" is not the good translation. In the Russian original he uses the word "белокурые" or blond. Here he sarcastically associates Germany with blond hyena or blond witch and hints to the Nietzsche's concept of "the blond beast" ("blonden Bestie" or Übermensch). This playword was easily understood by a Soviet reader of the time.  --Nekto 11:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More on the Ehrenburg article 

message: "De Zayas, who also reads Russian, was able to evaluate captured Soviet records found in the files of the Wehrmacht Untersuchungsstelle and Fremde Heere Ost, including flyers of Ilya Ehrenburg (including the infamous "Ubei" flyer, which de Zayas publishes in facsimile, providing a partial translation)." (quoted from Talk:The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945, signed there Dr. Dr. Johannes van Aggelen).Xx236 11:00, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945 

message: Some one wrote that the translation means "German man" in the "kill" pamphlet, and that this rules out civilians completely, in terms of being targeted by soviet war crimes.  as many men are civilians, even in war, last time I  checked. So, this does not make sense, even if it is true which I don't know if it is, men can be civilians .  In addition, inciting to kill is just that.
::The article was written in 1942. It was the second year of the war when German troops advanced deep into the Soviet Union and reached the line Leningrad - Moscow - Stalingrad. At that time there were no any civilian Germans available to Soviet soldiers to commit any "soviet crimes" against them. At that time for Soviet soldiers the name "German (man)" only meant an armed enemy in the opposite trenches. In wartime there is nothing wrong in "inciting to kill" invaders. That's all.
Ehrenburg was a fucking communist. Cummunism has killed million people. That`s all. --195.126.85.141 16:40, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You German scum murdered over eleven million innocent civilians in World War II.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paperalso2 (talk • contribs) 02:44, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  meant for soliders not civilians? 

message: This article's completely lopsided, full of trifles, full of holes - and the talk page's much longer than the article itself. For anybody with a knowledge of German & interested in how a good article on Ehrenburg may look like, see here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilja_Grigorjewitsch_Ehrenburg
:Excellent job! 
:It reminds me an old Russian joke:
:There was an international competition for the best book about elephants.
:Germany submitted 8 volume set under the title "Introduction into elephantology."
:France submitted a lavishly illustrated booklet titled "Elephants and love."
:England presented a treatise "Elephants and the World Trade."
:The USA furnished a pocketbook "Everything you would like to know about elephants."
:The USSR sent three volumes, with the following titles, Vol. 1. Russia - the Motherland of elephants. Vol. 2. Marxism classics about elephants. Vol. 3. Elephants in the light of decisions of the XXX Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.
:Bulgaria translated Soviet volumes and added Vol. 4. Bulgarian elephant is a younger brother of Soviet one.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nekto (talk • contribs) 13:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Nekto! Fine user name. Being the main author of the German article, I appreciate your description. I don't think every Ehrenburg article has to be an introduction into Ehrenburgology. But maybe the English one could do with some grains of real knowledge ...--Mautpreller (talk) 08:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  A very poor article 

message: There is an edit warring around article "Kill the German" by Erenburg. This article is widely know, published in hundreds of Soviet books, an no one ever disputed the authorship by Erenburg. However, the translation from Russian is indeed very poor. This is original Russian text (see ru:Убей немца!): 
Мы знаем все. Мы помним все. Мы поняли: немцы не люди. Отныне слово «немец» для нас самое страшное проклятье. Отныне слово «немец» разряжает ружье. Не будем говорить. Не будем возмущаться. Будем убивать. Если ты не убил за день хотя бы одного немца, твой день пропал. Если ты думаешь, что за тебя немца убьет твой сосед, ты не понял угрозы. Если ты не убьешь немца, немец убьет тебя. Он возьмёт твоих и будет мучить их в своей окаянной Германии. Если ты не можешь убить немца пулей, убей немца штыком. Если на твоем участке затишье, если ты ждешь боя, убей немца до боя. Если ты оставишь немца жить, немец повесит русского человека и опозорит русскую женщину. Если ты убил одного немца, убей другого — нет для нас ничего веселее немецких трупов. Не считай дней. Не считай верст. Считай одно: убитых тобою немцев. Убей немца! — это просит старуха-мать. Убей немца! — это молит тебя дитя. Убей немца! — это кричит родная земля. Не промахнись. Не пропусти. Убей!
This might be translated better as a notable example of war-time propaganda.Biophys (talk) 01:02, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: However such direct citation would be only appropriate in an article about Soviet war time propaganda; not here. "Kill, kill, kill!" is hardly an encyclopedic content.Biophys (talk) 01:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But this is quite a piece: "If you did not kill a German today, your day is wasted. ... Nothing makes us happier than dead German bodies... Do not count the days [remaining to the end of the war]. Do not count the miles. Count only Germans killed by you...".Biophys (talk) 02:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Translation from Russian

message: Contrast this article with Goebbels'. Hilarious, really. Or pathetic, whichever one prefers.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.45.184 (talk) 08:38, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: True. Surprisingly (or not), the article in the German wikipedia is much more respectful and neutral. (The article on Ehrenburg, I mean...) Feketekave (talk) 10:24, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contrast 

message: The article declared that Germans "are not humans". This kind of description is quite misleading. The article quotes German behaviour towards Russian prisoners of war ("are they really humans?") and then bitterly comments that it is the Germans who do not behave as humans, "are not humans". This is not a "declaration".--Mautpreller (talk) 12:17, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propaganda article 

message: This is a severely deficient article on a major writer. The article on de.wiki - which is full of information, well-written, sympathetic but rather balanced - has earned a citation as an excellent article there; I cannot but agree. The article here could be improved vastly simply by the incorporation of translations of most of the de.wiki article here.
The matter of finding the time aside, would this be OK? What are the precedents? A main concern would be how to credit properly the authors of the de.wiki article for their good work. Feketekave (talk) 14:11, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As the main author of the German article (about 100% of the text ;-), I have no objections. It would be fine, however, if my work were credited in any way. I offer to help if there are any problems as I know the literature about Ehrenburg rather well. --Mautpreller (talk) 11:29, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've got started. Let us see how it goes. Feketekave (talk) 16:52, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine. I don't know if you want to write anything about the ideological turnings of young Ilya Ehrenburg. It was interesting for me that he first joined the Bolsheviks, then was attracted to a kind of catholicism (under the influence of Jammes), later set his hopes upon the mencheviks and even the white army, and finally got acquainted with the idea that communist rule was "necessary." It was for this reason that Victor Shklovsky called him a "Paul Saulovitch." But feel free to decide what is important for the article.--Mautpreller (talk) 08:25, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This is all very interesting to me. I find all of the material in your article rather worthwhile; at the same time, it might be best if we don't commit ourselves to sticking to a literal translation. Feketekave (talk) 10:09, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right. The introduction sounds fine to me. If you agree, I'll have a look from time to time. Keep up the good work --Mautpreller (talk) 14:21, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Fixed a little, but this is still an overkill. My very best wishes (talk) 18:45, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Starting over 

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