Talk:Portuguese language/Archive 3

message: About brazilian phonetics: the vowels before a nasal consonant have a complicated status.
The grave a is not [ɐ] e muito menos [ɐ̃] (raios, what does it mean?). The brazilian sound is surely [ʌ]. And so, [o] is the grave o and [e] is the grave e.
In the south of Brazil and in Paraiba, all the vowels before a vowel are grave.
[kʌna], [kʌma], [fomi], [ʀorʌɪma], [komi], [bʌnʌna], [aroma], [tema], [kʌnela], [pʌniku]...
In other parts of brazil, although, there some exceptions in these rules. 
[kʌna], [kʌma], [fɔmi], [ʀoraɪma] (specially in the northern Brazil), [kɔmi], [banʌna], [aroma], [tema], [kʌnela]/[kanela], [pʌniku].
Better note that panics is pânico in Brazil and pánico in Portugal and ex-colonies.
Other things: 
*We have not the Schwa sound ([ə]).
*The ã is actually [ã].
*/j/ is /ɪ/, not other thing.
*In São Paulo (city) and surrounding areas, the sound /ẽ/ is uttered as /ẽɪ̃/  (I am one of those people)
*ɨ is really unutterable by brazilians.
*r: there is some problem in it.
**soft post-vowel r: we do speak [ɾ]. In Rio, [h] [ʀ]. In the end of verbs, it can be deleted. (Cantar -> Cantá)
**soft pre-vowel r: we generally speak [ɾ]
**hard r: in the beginning of a word, [h] or [ʀ]. In the middle, just [ʀ]. Sometimes, [x], but very, very rarely.
*nh: good note. Better mantain.
I can write it in the article latter. More discussion?
José San Martin 00:38, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
:[ɐ̃] is just "an" has in has in 'anda, can'ta. The ã, I believe, is from this region (north of Portugal) and it is very different (sonorous) from the Brazilian and the standard european port (which for me are much alike, or identical, but there are dialects that it isnt). The I is another problem. is it really the Bras. standard? You're the second to say that, but others don't. Maybe because these sounds are similar. Because when I ear it doesnt seem to me. In EP is really \j\, the academy says so. But I can be hearing wrongly.
:"Pánico" is the pronunciation on Northern Portugal, "Pânico" is the in the south and other places. I pronunce pánico (i'm from the north), but we all (north/south) write "pânico". Standard Portuguese has no changes in the â with Brazil. It has on ô and ê in these examples: quilômetro (Brazil) ->quilómetro; amazônia ->amazónia I'm not remembering one for ê.... :| but it exists.
:Don't confuse northern Portugal phonology with the standard one. Yes, write. 
:Aproveita e arranja a tabela que tá toda torta. :| -Pedro 01:22, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Brazilian vowels

message: The EU is a sui generis institution. I saw in the article Greek language, the EU being stated. The CIA also does it. Please don't compare the EU to Mercosul or NAFTA... that would be very dumb. If someone disagrees please state why. I think the same should be done with the other 19 official languages. -Pedro 23:19, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  European Union 

message: PedantPrick then what it was? Japanese?
Portuguese was língua vulgar aka sermus vulgaris aka Vulgar Latin. Thought the reference is not really needed. -Pedro 22:14, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Portuguese was not Vulgar Latin?!

message: The Portuguese section of Romance copula needs some attention.
If you can describe the difference between ser and estar, go for it! Chameleon 22:56, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assistance 

message: It seems highly unlikely that 20% of Namibians speak Portuguese as a native language.  --Henrygb 13:16, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Namibia

message: This claim would be unlikely to be accepted by mainstream linguists: "Interestingly, French is more closely related to Portuguese than it is to Spanish, even though Spain has a common boundary with France, while Portugal does not." Although Portuguese shares some vocabulary with French and other Romance languages, grammatically is more closely aligned with Castillian Spanish than with French. It also shares many more cultural influences, for example those derived from the Moorish control of much of the Iberian peninsula during a key period in the development of both languages.
 --ManOnABus 13:44, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claims of close relationship to the French language 

message: In the section EXAMPLES, I changed a bit the pronunciation of the words.
1 - There were some little wrong things, like accent of the sylabe.
2 - It had the Rio de Janeiro accent, wich due to historical reasons (the royal portuguese family had been to Rio), has a portuguese-like accent.
The accent I has put is a neutral accent.
(I'm brazilian, from São Paulo)
* OK. Thought people in Brazil usually find Rio de Janeiro Portuguese the closest to the European, I think it is the Northeastern dialects. I just disagree with one thing: For instance /ĩ'gleɪs/ should be  /ĩ'glejs/ the "i" is a semi-vowel, so it is a \j\ in IPA. It is not the Portuguese J.-Pedro 19:49, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brazilian Pronunciation 

message: I think that it should be noted that, inspite of being the national language, Portuguese is hardly spoken in Guiné-Bissau. It is learned only in private schools (in the cities). The urban population speaks creole and outside of the cities, not even creole is spoken much. I know this for fact (my girlfriend is from Guiné-Bissau). If you have need for more specifics, please let me know. If not, please consider putting this addendum.
* Portuguese is not the national language in Guinea Bissau, there's no national language there - there are several! Portuguese is just the official language, there's a lingua Franca, the Crioulo (the Portuguese Creole). And, the Crioulo is becoming very popular there has Lingua Franca, it is spoken today by more than 60% and growing. Due to permanent war, the Portuguese language itself is fewly spoken (mostly spoken by urban man), that was in the article, now is part of The Geography of the Portuguese language... where there's info about all the African countries. The Creole could become a national language, it is being taught everywhere there, even in trees o_O - it has the same use that standard Portuguese has in Mozambique (communicate with people, that are from other regions). About the note, if you read the article, you'll see that only 15% of the population in the country speaks Portuguese... so, that is already in the article. BTW, these levels of use of the Official language are very common in the rest of the African countries with French, English, or Portuguese has official languages. The exception is Angola, where Portuguese is largely spoken. I dont know if there are similar cases in other countries about other languages, surely there are. -Pedro 23:31, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Portuguese in Guiné-Bissau

message: I might be in over my head, but I tried recording "Portugese" in Portugese even though I'm not a native speaker.
Here's the recording: .
If others approve, I'd like to put it in the introduction next to Portugese. karmosin 20:40, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
*Which Pronunciation are you using? Lisbon or Rio de Janeiro? Between both there's a change in the pronunciation of the R (not so round in Lisbon - has it is in the article) and more silent in Rio. Maybe if you change the \o\ to an \u\ - it is often used in both dialects and it would seem more natural. Although you can also use an "o" but not emphasized - pronunced somewhat speedly.-Pedro 12:24, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Amazing article you've compiled here, btw. It should serve as an inspiration to all other language articles. I'll try to get it translated into Swedish as soon as I can. Peter Isotalo 21:08, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)
* Oh thanks. I'm just perfectionist, and when I come by with some related interresting subject in the news, or papers, I just open wikipedia. The sound is very nice now. -Pedro 00:23, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation sound file 

message: I want to know who these Brazilians are that are going to college so they can sound more like Yoquinhos. I find the phrase "between educated Brazillians and Portuguese these differences are reduced", to be a classic example of PedroPVZ's (yes, he's back) Portugal-centric attitude and feelings of superiority, not to mention his often ludicrous assertions that strain his credibility.  The implication is obvious: if educated Brazilians are easier for portuguese to understand, than the majority of Brazillians are speaking in a manner that Pedro finds uneducated.  What an open-minded way to view dialectical differences! Admittedly, I do not know many Brazillians, much less educated ones, but I doubt that they speak that much differently from the rest of their countrymen. If some intelligent brazilians, whose credibility has not been called into question repeatedly in the past, would like to correct me otherwise, I would welcome that. But until then, Pedro's perceptions should not be masquerading as legitimate research. ThePedanticPrick 23:12, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: you speak (singular) can be said, two ways:  Angolans and Brazilians do is, in fact, mixing both.
* tu falas and 
* você fala
The last one is the most used in Brazil, the "tu fala" occurs in some dialects in Brazil. In Portugal both are used depending on the situation or person that we are talking. Talking to another person is very complex in Portuguese. Obviously, this doesnt makes these dialects creoles, not even semi-creoles. The language is much more than this.  -Pedro 23:06, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Educated Brazillians?

message: Hi.  After reading the article, I noticed a couple of mistakes:
# In one of the tables, it is informed that 99% of the Brazilian population is formed by native speakers.  That information is wrong.  The actual figure as calculated by all research institutes (such as IBGE) is 100%.  Non-native speakers in Brazil are basically immigrants and a small number of isolated indian communities, usually concentrated in the Amazon Basin.  Those numbers, even combined, are statiscally irrelevant.
# The expression "portuñol" or "portunhol" is not a "hybrid dialect" formed by mixing Portuguese and Spanish.  It is actually a pejorative expression used in referrence to erroneous use of either language by a native speaker of the other who is unable to filter out some similar words and ends up speaking a confusing blend of the two (as commonly said of Brazilians trying to communicate in Spanish when they have no control of the language — so they throw in some words in Spanish that they happen to know but keep the entire structure of the sentences and many other words in Portuguese — the result is sometimes confusing for natives of either language to understand).  It is common to say to someone pejoratively: "What language are you speaking? Portunhol?" when they are making no sense.  "Portunhol" is more common in border areas, as many Brazilians cross over to countries such as Uruguay, Argentina and Paraguay and natives of those countries visit Brazil as well.  Many of these people try to ease communication barriers by throwing some words in Portuguese or Spanish (depending on what is their native tongue) and end up "speaking portunhol".  There is no rule to "speak portunhol" once or ever, each person makes up his/her own as they go along.  As a result, portunhol changes from person to person, so there's absolutely no characteristic in it that would even resemble a language or a dialect.
* Actually, I think that the 99 % figure is fairly accurate.  A "native speaker" means someone who speaks Portuguese as first language. Well, Portuguese is NOT the first language of most Brazilian Indians who are, according to the latest Census, approximately 0.45 % of the population. Second, according to IBGE, something like 0.6 or 0.7 % of the population of Brazil is actually foreign-born (down from a historical peak of 5 % in the early 20th century and compared to a contemporary figure of 12 % or so for the U.S). Of course, that might look like a small number, but, still, excluding those born in Portugal, most of those foreign-born residents of Brazil do not speak Portuguese as their native language. Moreover, even among native-Born Brazilians, there are still a few homes where kids learn some other language (i.e. their "native language") before learning Portuguese. That is still the case for example in some German communities in the rural South. Overall, I would say that 1 % of non-native speakers of Portuguese is a reliable guess.
::Would it be code switching as in Spanglish or Llanito? -- Error 01:42, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: More like spanglish (arbitrary) than llanito (stabilished), but yes. Portunhol is regarded as a failed communication attempt. The common accepted communication method between the open frontier Brazil-Uruguay is the Brazilian speaking plain Portuguese and the Uruguayan speaking plain Spanish. The languages are close enough to permit communication, even though it's a somewhat "blurred" communication. I don't know what usually happens in other frontiers like the Foz do Iguaçu, the triple frontier (Brazil-Argentina-Paraguay). --Ekevu (talk) 12:29, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mistakes in the article 

message: Hi, everyone.  I have made some changes to the grammar and spelling, especially to the section Written Varieties and Spelling Reform, but not being a subject-matter expert, I would like to encourage everyone who has contributed to make sure I have not inadvertently changed the meaning of one of your sentences.  It seems like a lot of this stuff has been posted by people for whom English is a second-language (not that there's anything wrong with that) and this can be a source of misunderstandings.  I apologize if this, or my lack of knowledge about developments in the language has caused me to make semantic, rather than syntactical changes.  Thank you ThePedanticPrick 20:56, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar and spelling changes 

message: p04, in here, we name this as a "frigideira". (I dont know what Lisbonians name this - I think they give a different name). I'll ask. I think "Caçarola" is similar to the "frigideira", it just have a cap in it. The big one, to cook normal food, like rice or pasta, for that, in Portugal the used term is also panela. Dont you think the article over the related languages got too big? (btw the other section about the varieties is also too big). The observation you made in "Berma" is really a very good example of that. Thx -Pedro 12:21, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caçarola and Relation to other languages 

message: Wikipedia is becoming very tendencious in relation to the problem of Galician, see Galician language nether the Xunta de Galicia (Galician government - headed by a Spanish nationalist) would dare to say all of that. Someone eliminated info about Galician from the Portuguese language article. It is true that Galician is not Portuguese and Portuguese is not Galician due to lack of historical connection to the names, but most linguists (even important ones) agree that both are the same language. And this is not suprising to someone who can really understand and analyse the language. Todays situation is only due to political issues and not to linguistical ones. -Pedro 19:11, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Galician 

message: According to the article Portuguese is spoken in Spain (Galicia) by 2.9 million.  That number should refer to the total population of the Autonomous Region and not the number of speakers.  According to Instituto da Lingua Galega in 1991 88% spoke Galego. According to Galego.org 86.7 could speak.  These numbers are based on what people answer when asked if they can speak, write, read, and understand.  There are many galegos, especially in urban centers like Vigo, La Corunha, and El Ferrol that do not speak Galego.  
There is also a lot of controversy about whether Galego is a variant of Portuguese--like Brazilian Portuguese--or is in fact a separate language.  According to Galego.org, "Galician is "Galicia's own language" and  "Nowadays Galician is spoken by more than 3 million people, both in Galicia and its borderings (occident of Asturias, León and Zamora) and in several countries where Galician people emigrated". If it is a separate language then the number of Portuguese speakers in Galicia is minimal.  The article should not state categorically that Galego is the same as Portuguese.  It is not.  In fact most Portuguese speakers, on hearing a galego speaking in his language, will think that he is listening to a Spanish speaker.
RV
* I agree. The fact, is that was putted in the article, by a Galician. I think all info about Galician should be under the same area of the article. But some Galician dialects do not seem any closer to Spanish, nether to Portuguese hears (maybe to southern Portuguese) - many "good" linguists classify Galician has being a Portuguese dialect. But Historically it does not derive from it (so here is a point of great controversy), so it has a language/ dialect code and are officially undesrtood (by the government of Galicia) has very close languages. Plus, it has a big number of External (Spanish) influence. Read www.agal-gz.org they write in Galician Portuguese a "variant" of Portuguese used in some Galician Universities. But if you read Galician, you'll will see the structure of the Portuguese language in a different code, please read www.bng-gz.org (nationalist Galician party) , that I believe supports Galician has a separate language. Cheers -Pedro 00:17, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Debatable statistics on Portuguese in Galicia 

message: :Ella hecha siempre la ventana antes de yantar. (less common Spanish)
I can't connect to RAE now, but I doubt that hechar is a Spanish word.
Echar el cierre means "to close" but Portuguese fechar and Spanish echar are not cognates.
-- Error 01:50, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the Spanish phrase. If somebody can come up with a substitute, add it. -- Error 00:54, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

text: uhuh, "hechar" doesn't seem to exist. i looked it up in http://onelook.com/ (meta dictionary with over 900 various dictionaries indexed) and http://clave.librosvivos.net/ (the best online spanish dictionary i know about) and simply didn't get anything. "echar" did return results, and i do know it mainly being used to mean "to put", but i know there are other meanings as well. and yeah, i agree with ray, as far as i'm concerned, "vós" simply doesn't exist, but i DID say there are people who use "tú", even though not in the techically correct way. i have nothing against it and as Kaonashi/Mackeriv said, it doesn't really bother anyone, but it is far from standard. Vbs 08:46, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Ella hecha siempre la ventana antes de yantar