Talk:Karate/Archive 1

message: I removed these paragraphs:
Yakusoku Kumite starts at Green Belt (Yon-Kyu). Two opponents usually square off and fight until a clean point is scored, as indicated by one of two seated judges by coloured flags or seen by the standing referee.  At this point sparring is stopped and the point is awarded. Points systems vary but in general a half-point (wazari) is awarded for a single punch or for a kick to the body.  A full point (ippon) is given for an attack such as a head kick, any attack following the opponent being taken to the ground or a combination technique (renrakuwaza).
Jiyu Kumite can look more like a brawl or street fight. It is the more serious side of the martial arts, being done more for defense or close-combat "Real Time" training than for sport. Although every technique should be controlled, the fighters do push themselves to be their best. No points are awarded.
because they probably describe kumite in some specific style or organisation of karate. Most certainly, yokosuku kumite från green belt is something style-specific and as we don't know where it belongs it is better to remove it. 193.10.63.101 12:41, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed paragraphs 

message: One link in the federations, leading to Genseiryu Karate-do International Federation (Nippon Genseiryu Karate-do Butokukai) is in fact the Official Japanese Genseiryu Butokukai Honbu Dojo, which is in Asaka city, Saitama prefecture. The Honbu Dojo of Genseiryu is in Ito (Shizuoka prefecture, Japan).
Peter Lee keeps deleting the Butokukai term (adding offensive notes in the summary where I am called "angry", "vandalist" and a "liar"). This organisation has to use, BY LAW!!, the additional term BUTOKUKAI, to distinguish them from (the original) Genseiryu! So please, stop removing this. Thank you! -- MarioR 10:01, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Since it only leads to an endless edit war with Peter Lee, I stop adding Butokukai to the mentioned link, "Genseiryu Karate-do International Federation (GKIF) (Official Honbu Dojo of Japan)". However keep in mind this link leads to a site about another style than Genseiryu, namely Genseiryu-Butokukai, derived from Genseiryu... Also would I like to point out that the WGKF and GKIF are two different, totally independant federations, GKIF for Genseiryu-Butokukai, WGKF for the original Genseiryu as was taught by the (late) developper sensei Seiken Shukumine! -- MarioR 12:45, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

text: One more comment on Peter Lee's changes (that I reverted a couple of times): Peter Lee changes the comment of the link 玄制流空手道 (Genseiryu Karatedo) every time into "Japan Karate-do and Martial Arts Association site". However this site has nothing to do with this association, it's a Genseiryu site, for Genseiryu ONLY! To be precise: the original or traditional Genseiryu... Peter Lee has absolutely nothing to do with this style nor with this site, for he's training Genseiryu according the 'modern way' of sensei Kunihiko Tosa, that is to say: Genseiryu-Butokukai... -- MarioR 22:36, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Again, I have reverted the 'link correction' by the "anonymous" user. Reasoning of the revert above here. Nothing more to say... --MarioR 18:04, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Federation for Genseiryu-Butokukai

message: Dear 212.10.38.223. I know this is you Peter Larsen! STOP using my name in summaries and using INCORRECT quotes with which you are trying to slander my name again! I have never used the term JKBA, what is this anyway??? Japan Kick-Boxing Association??? () What does THIS have to do with karate??? I have never used this term!!!
According to you, the site 玄制流空手道 (Genseiryu Karatedo) is NOT Honbu. You say you know Japanese, then tell me why it says this on the main page:
 このホームページは、創始者・祝嶺正献の承認の元に活動している唯一の正式団体である「玄制流空手道本部」のホームページです。
This statement says that this homepage is the ONLY OFFICIAL GENSEIRYU homepage of Genseiryu Karatedo HONBU (=本部), approved by the founder Shukumine Seiken. All copyrights are mentioned on that page too!!! On the links you will find certificates, rules for Shibu laid down by this HONBU (=head quarter), the structure of the Genseiryu organization (president, chairman, etc.), pictures of head instructors and so on...
So stop this BS edit war and simply acknowledge this IS a HONBU for Genseiryu! I could say THE Honbu, but I am not, 'cause that would give you more reason to keep vandalizing this article. But I will NEVER stop calling this HONBU, because it's the TRUTH! And you know that!!! I am not changing 'your' link (anymore), which is incorrect since your link does NOT lead to Genseiryu Honbu, but to Genseiryu-Butokukai Honbu!!! I therefore urge you to stop being a little boy and act like a grown man! -- MarioR 14:04, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, I have reverted the 'link correction' by the "anonymous" user. Reasoning of the revert above here. Nothing more to say... --MarioR 18:04, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: STOP this edit war over a LINK: [http://homepage2.nifty.com/gensei-ryu1/index.html Genseiryu Karatedo HONBU]!

message: This amount of external links is ridicolous. Does the en:WP have any guidelines for this? Londenp 21:47, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: External links

message: Ok, I have a little proposal. I am shortly going to remove all the links from this article. They are a source of yet another edit war and there are a crazy number of them. 
To replace the 'Associations', we already have List of Karate organizations which is more than enough. Editors fighting here should go to that article and start writing articles for the redlinks there — provided the organisations listed are notable. To replace the other Karate styles, we in some cases already have articles which no doubt need improving and, where we do not they should be written, or mentioned somewhere appropriate — such as many already are in the 'Styles' section. WP:ISNOT a webdirectory, and it is not a battleground. I do not see the encyclopedic value in the list of "...with Olympic links" at all. -Splash 22:40, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Please reinsert them only as they are genuinely appropriate, and consider if they belong better elsewhere. -Splash 03:10, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links 

message: Added Karate Style-lines with Okinawa extraction (1372), New Karate-Styles with Japanese extraction, New Karate-Styles with European extraction. -- Robzombie 10:42, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have moved this new input by Robzombie to the bottom of this (discussion) page to keep it more chronological... -- MarioR 16:00, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Styles 

message: I reverted the 9/28 edits to the History section back to the earlier version. The writing was in poor English, and not consistent with the context of the surrounding sentences. As a point of historical criticism, Shito ryu was not the originating style of the Bassai kata- Shito ryu's founder, Kenwa Mabuni, had a more detailed knowledge of kata and it's variants than Funakoshi did, so Funakoshi sent many of his top Japanese students (including his son) to learn Bassai, et al, from Mabuni. The information about Funakoshi's educational training and the training of his teachers is noteworthy, but probably would serve better on the page dedicated to him. Secondly, Azato did not train in kendo- he learned the Jigen ryu system of kenjitsu during his stay in Satsuma, before kenjitsu had been converted to kendo. 
RSimpson
All new stuff is supposed to go at the bottom of the page, or at the bottom of the relevent section.
I agree, I was going to do the way. I'm also going to remove his seemingly random and poorly written blurb on Shotokan. If you have any problems with this Sensei Moo, please disucss them here on the talk page. Bihal 02:42, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: History and other updates

message: I've just placed a comment on a stub related to this article. Please have a look and comment if you would like. 
Mokuso
Bihal 12:37, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments Please 

message: just begun - horrible to read at moment. what does this mean anyone? "Minimoto Gotente from Tametomo, the latter a Minimoto Samurai whose son Shunten by an Okinawan wife established the Line of Okinawan Kings".. i think i should just delete as it makes no sense. wikipedia is not just for karatedos you know! Grroin 16:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing to make readable 

message: A new category for those interested in martial arts has been created at Category:Wikipedians_interested_in_martial_arts. To add yourself, simply copy the following code to the bottom of your user page:
:
Shawnc 11:35, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Martial arts category for Wikipedians

message: osrry guys pile of **** the heading some unknown person put at top of page. this is a discussion apge where's the info? Grroin 23:50, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  karate is from india -SELF EXPLANATORY? 

message: ===References===
* for an illustration of the different characters for karate
** http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=197
* 1722 Sakugawa
** http://www.uta.edu/student_orgs/umaa/htmlDocs/history.html
* Anko Itosu and forms
** http://www.budget.net/~dnolan/articles2.html
** http://www.geocities.com/keikoden/Wado.htm
* Lee Won Kuk 's training
** http://tkdtutor.com/02Taekwondo/TKDHistory/10ModernTKD.htm
** http://www.gbgm-umc.org/otterbeinumc-wv/karatehistory.htm
* Hwang Kee
** http://www.natkd.com/tang_soo_do.htm
** http://www.karatekorner.com/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=31&Topic=807
** http://www.completemartialarts.com/whoswho/halloffame/hwangkee.htm
** http://tkdtutor.com/02Taekwondo/TKDHistory/10ModernTKD.htm
** http://www.natkd.com/tang_soo_do.htm
* Other Korean kwans:
** Kwans of Tang Soo Do, book by Len Losik 
** http://www.darshantkd.com/tkd.htm
** http://tkdtutor.com/02Taekwondo/TKDHistory/10ModernTKD.htm
Those sources also hit the emphasis that all the kwan founders had Japanese karate backgrounds
* On the evolution of Tang Soo Do to Tae Kwon Do
** http://tkdtutor.com/02Taekwondo/TKDHistory/10ModernTKD.htm
** http://www.sos.mtu.edu/husky/cdk.shtml
* Korean characteristics : Japanese "zenkutsu-dachi" will be Korean "chongul-jasse", etc
** Own study of Karate: common observation
* Choki Motobu's background
** http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=398
* Mitose and Motobu
** http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KF/kempohistory.html
** http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/6968/kenpo.htm
* William Chow
** http://www.georgiakenpo.net/Profile_pages/william_chow.htm
** http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KF/kempohistory.html
* Ed Parker
** http://www.rathdownkenpo.com/Rathdown6/edparker.htm
* Robert Trias
** http://www.shuri-ryu.com/trias.htm
* Jhoon Rhee
** http://www.gbgm-umc.org/otterbeinumc-wv/karatehistory.htm
* Ki Whang Kim
** http://www.kim-studio.com/AboutUs/grandmasterkim.html
* Richard Kern and Dale Tompkins
** http://www.dankatie.com/karate/index.php
** http://www.tkasudo.com
* Quotes from Funakoshi and Kee
** Gichin Funakoshi: Karate-do Kyohan, the Master Text
** I lost the link for the Kee, unfortunately.
===Appropriateness of non-Japanese arts in Karate article===
I posted over a month ago on this page that I felt the Japanese-centrism in this article was biased and represented a non-NPOV.  There was no direct response, so I went ahead with my (admittedly massive) edit.  I think the content of the article shows quite clearly the justification for having non-Japanese arts represented in any historical discussion of Karate.  In brief, I think it is justifed by the clear historical evolution of these arts (particularly Tang Soo Do), and by any reasonably objective attempt at doing a systematic classification of the arts based on the content of the style (a taxonomy).  
Most US-based practitioners of American Kenpo and Tang Soo Do (and maybe even Tae Kwon Do) would consider their style to be "karate"; to be obviously karate.  15 minutes of Googling ought to make that clear; and it seems justified by the historical record.  Any statement from Karateka doing Japanese styles, to the effect that American Kenpo and Tang Soo Do "aren't Karate because they aren't Japanese", would need to be examined very closely.  Frankly, I would need to see some support, based either on the historical evidence or a detailed comparison of the contents of the styles, before accepting such a statement.
Jim Hardy 09:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Massive re-write, to show development in other countries and place Japan-centrism in context 

message: I posted over a month ago on this page that I felt the Japanese-centrism in this article was biased and represented a non-NPOV.  There was no direct response, so I went ahead with my (admittedly massive) edit.  I think the content of the article shows quite clearly the justification for having non-Japanese arts represented in any historical discussion of Karate.  In brief, I think it is justifed by the clear historical evolution of these arts (particularly Tang Soo Do), and by any reasonably objective attempt at doing a systematic classification of the arts based on the content of the style (a taxonomy).  
Most US-based practitioners of American Kenpo and Tang Soo Do (and maybe even Tae Kwon Do) would consider their style to be "karate"; to be obviously karate.  15 minutes of Googling ought to make that clear; and it seems justified by the historical record.  Any statement from Karateka doing Japanese styles, to the effect that American Kenpo and Tang Soo Do "aren't Karate because they aren't Japanese", would need to be examined very closely.  Frankly, I would need to see some support, based either on the historical evidence or a detailed comparison of the contents of the styles, before accepting such a statement.
Jim Hardy 09:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Appropriateness of non-Japanese arts in Karate article

message: JJL 23:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tsuruoka/Canada 

message: At the very least, these sections should be deleted:
1) "Karate is Japanese"
2) "Karate is any striking art that calls itself karate"
3) "Karate is a family of martial arts that can be described in a fairly objective taxonomy of martial arts styles"
These are so conversational.  It is a mini-debate on the rhetoric of the definition of the word karate.  It looks like these happened on the "talk" page and were just plopped onto the article.
Just look at this text:
"Karate is Japanese
Many people think this is so obvious it need not be said. Of course Karate is Japanese! How else? The modern word for Karate even comes from the Japanese! Sure, Karate has its roots in older Chinese martial arts by way of Okinawa; but do we say then that Karate is Chinese? Of course not. Think of language. “French” is a French language."
''
Does anyone agree?
JJL 18:09, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestions for editing 

message: Please refer to Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context for a guide on wikifying words in the article.  Too many words have been repetitively wikified despite already being linked earlier in the article. "What should not be linked: Words that have been linked earlier in the article. This advice follows the standard practice of defining or explaining a term, or spelling out an acronym, on its first occurrence in a text and not subsequently." This goes to words such as "martial arts", "martial artists", places like Okinawa, Korea, Japan and so on. --Fire Star 23:47, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikifying