Talk:Kingston upon Hull/Archive 1

message: I also removed the section on the Crap Towns, which somebody has restored.  I don't think is particularly relevant, there are many books on Hull and that is hardly the most authoritive.
: - I disagree. This book is one of the most famous contempory references to Hull and forms the opinion of a large proportion of th UK that Hull is a post-war nightmare of concrete, unemployment, norrow minded volence and insular attitude. Whilst the old town and outlying villages may not like this a large proportion of Hull actually is - one of the reasons most educated people leave, never to return from university. 199.4.27.1 12:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have restored the crap towns mention. whilst i do not necessariy agree with the comments above it is a notable book with its own listing on Wikipedia, and a notable fact about the city.GazMan7 14:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Crap Towns''

message: :I have taken the following out of the article as I dont think it is terribly encyclopedic, especially not with this title. G-Man 20:09, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You say that "Hull is widely known in Britain to be one of the worst cities there". This is news to me - do you have a source or is it just your POV? Paul Tracy|\talk
***That's true, yes.  However, in popular culture, Hull is seen as one of the worst places in Britain, and has been mocked in the various publications and productions.  Best and Worst Places to Live in the UK, whilst not a scientific study, did take lots of numeric factors into account, like crime rate, education, employment etc.  The show also mentioned that Hull is the fattest city in Britain which has not been mentioned here before, .  Hull does have a bad reputation, however, one should balance the above paragraph with the regeneration projects happening in Hull.  New developments like the KC Stadium, The Deep and numerous new housing projects aim to lift Hull's image.  However, other schemes like the demolition of 2 failing schools, rebuilt as Endeavour High have so far failed, the new school having similar or worse results than the schools before it. .  I'm not sure about other city's boundaries, but to me, I think that small city boundaries have been a scapegoat for failing Hull schools, looking elsewhere for the problem, instead of itself.  It has however, led to a brain drain away from Hull and into the surrounding areas with schools in East Riding being oversubscribed.  - Hahnchen 15:03, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

text: - I disagree. This book is one of the most famous contempory references to Hull and forms the opinion of a large proportion of th UK that Hull is a post-war nightmare of concrete, unemployment, norrow minded volence and insular attitude. Whilst the old town and outlying villages may not like this a large proportion of Hull actually is - one of the reasons most educated people leave, never to return from university. 199.4.27.1 12:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Definately opinionated, I agree. I would, however, argue that the first part is also true. Having lived in Hull and numerous other places, it's hard not to disagree. Either way, its status as 'worst town' should be noted somewhere. --Dan (Talk)|@ 10:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The case against Hull section

message: I am assuming the city is officially the City of Kingston-upon-Hull - perhaps that should be made clearer in the article...--80.195.253.219 03:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it with or without hyphens? Kingston-upon-Hull or Kingston upon Hull? Or either? Official websites seem to use both, the wiki article is without. Folks at 137 11:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've seen both uses too, although more often without hyphens than with, at least in Hull's case. There is inconsistency among cities with similarly constructed names (cf. Newcastle upon Tyne and Stoke-on-Trent). My personal preference is without (easier/quicker to type), and I think as long as one form is used consistently throughout an article, it doesn't really matter.  Doonhamer | Banter  14:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Name 

message: On an unrelated note, the culture cleanup flag is definately deserving, although, what should be done to tidy it up? I'd be in favour of removing all but the most prominent entries (Beautiful South, EBTG etc.) in what seems like an advertisement for college bands, but I wouldn't want to seem rash. Ideally it would end up being organised like Manchester, Leeds or Bradford. Any comments or suggestions? Jastein 02:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: - definitely - many of the bands listed are in the 'not notable' category. seems like that section about live music was written by a promotor, to me... --82.43.100.107 23:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Culture 

message: If one is to come from the  Ludgates, Hull, England, where are they from actually?
Could Ludgates actually mean "Flood gates"? If so does Hull have flood gates and if some one reffered to them as being from there where would that be?
:No idea - live in Hull and never heard it. Hull has a flood barrier (not gates) - with housing kind of near by but...?
I havent heard of Ludgate in Hull but there is a Lowgate. The ___gates in Hull typically refer to roads where gates existed when it was a Walled settlement. This is origins of Whitefriargate, Posterngate and Lowgate.  Alot of what is now the city center _is_ built on reclaimed flood planes and some this was flooded during the Civil war seige of the City by the destruction of water sluices.  The river Hull has a tidal barrier that is mentioned in the main article but this is modern structure (maybe 20years old).
Historically LUD [Llud] (73-58 BC): Was a king of Britain, came down from Scotland and made his way through Northumberland to London there are Ludgates in London, Leeds, ?York and Birmingham and probaably other places as well... though I don't think there has ever been one in Hull. Lud ordered the rebuilding of London's walls and towers.  Up to this point London had been known as Trinovantum but now it became known as Kaerlud, or the City of Lud.  This was later corrupted to Kaerlundein or City of Lundein, a small step to City of London.  Lud is buried in London close to Ludgate which bears his name.  Lud had two sons, Androgeus, Duke of Kent and Tenvantius (Tasclovanus), Duke of Cornwall but neither were considered suitable to succeed their father which was how Cassivelaunus, Lud's brother, became king...
There's also Blackfriargate it's near the Ha'penny bridge to the Deep. 83.100.175.111 22:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ludgates, Hull, England

message: http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/search/advanced.cfm  This details four different accents from Hull, and all four seem to have the O: sound in "goat" listed.  Did somebody get it the wrong way around in the article?  I'm not an expert on how to represent pronounciations. 
Also, on it being different from Yorkshire generally, I think it's better to say that it's very different from East Yorkshire accents.  Two reasons why:
1 There are plenty of areas in Yorkshire that have an accent unlike anywhere around.  Harrogate is arguably the best example.  [Only joking].
2 Being from the West Riding, I don't find Hull speech to be that different whilst I find the rest of East Riding speech to be completely different.
Epa101 20:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just doing another search, the accents for the East Riding towns of Old Goole, Withernsea and Old Newton all have an 8 sound listed for "goat".  Sounds like someone got it wrong way around to me.  Epa101 20:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Accent

message: Actually, should this article be moved? If so, to to Hull or Hull, Humberside as Hull is the most common name? Simply south 12:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nah, it's fine as it is.  "Hull" get's to a disambiguation page as it should.  This is meant to be an encyclopedia so the proper name rather than the more common name is appropriate.  And certainly not to Hull, Humberside as it's not in Humberside - whatever that is/was. MikesPlant 12:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Keep as it is. Kris 13:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok. Humberside is the region around Hull. The suggestion was based on a similar move thing. See Talk:Letchworth. Simply south 16:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming 

message: Think that there should be some mention of the Hull Fair similar the entry on the Goose Fair in the Nottingham atricle. There is also a separate article on the Goose Fair itself which may be possible if there is enough material.
Keith D 13:36, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hull Fair

message: The page says that an inhabitant of the city is called a 'Hullensian'; however I've never ever heard this term - most people I know use 'Hullian'. I'm not sure whether this is widely used either (most results on google are to do with psychology, although the top one is a website of someone in hull). Anyone have any thoughts on which is more correct? --smigs 22:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Hullian" is what I've heard the most regularly. It always reminds me of "hooligan", which is apt. I've never heard the term "Hullensian". "Hullite" is another one. Robinoke 08:26, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've heard "Hullensian" a few times, and I think it appears in the names of a few minor sporting teams from Hull although I couldn't name any. I have heard "Kingstonian" as well, which also rolls off the tongue but may lead to confusion with Kingston Upon Thames. I've never heard "Hullian", although that's a term you'd imagine most people almost 'making up' since that's a very common ending for an inhabitant. I did hear "Hullite" once a while ago, but it really doesn't sound as natural as these other terms. I would suggest there isn't a name for an inhabitant of Hull in common usage. Kris 10:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hullensian? 

message: I was wondering about the so little mention of The Deep in this article. I would say it is one of the most famous structures in the area and should at least warrant a picture on this page with some details (I can provide a photo if necessary). What do you lot think? The Guy From Ipanema 22:09, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Go for it. Kris 08:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know this isn't a tourist brochure but upon visiting Hull, i found it was better than the aquarium in London. Simply south 12:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Deep 

message: The tale of John Wyke, Archbishop of York and the locals being miffed is all very nice, but it isn't backed by the sources. For a start, check out Wikipedia's List of Archbishops of York (or look up another version) - you'll notice John Wyke is totally missing (and certainly wasn't about at the relevant time).  Certainly, Wyke existed well before 1291, and histories of Hull (and gazetteers of names etc.) give another story about the early history.
It is most likely that the shortening to 'Hull' came about from the town being well known for it's port, which was named (at least as far back as 1193) 'The Port of Hull', after the river on which it stood. 82.153.111.141 00:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wyke upon Hull 

message: Can I just query the point about Kingston upon Hull being shortened to Hull to 'avoid confusion with Kingston upon Thames'? The city has been referred to as Hull since medieval times, back when it was called Wyke-upon-Hull and I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with it being confused with Kingston upon Thames. (little muddy funkster 22:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed it. It was unsourced and completely wrong. - smigs 00:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparison with Kingston upon Thames 

message: Have uploaded some photo's - may be of use... maybe not... at the bottom of my user page... Merlin-UK 23:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo's 

message: Please visit Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/KC_Stadium_at_night if you are interested in having the picture of the KC Stadium raised to the status of featured picture or if you think that it definitely shouldn't be featured. Thanks, ...adam...  (talk • contributions)  19:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured Picture 

message: Firstly, do you think that a statistic from six years ago about church attendance is relevant anymore?
Secondly, do you trust it?  When you think of towns with large Muslim communities, do you really think that Hull's church attendance is lower than Dewsbury, Bradford, Tower Hamlets, etc.?  It seems unlikely to me.
A church in a parish in east Dewsbury closed recently.  I remember, in about 2003, that the church was practically deserted.  Don't think that attendance was too high around there! Epa101 22:07, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Religion

message: Does anyone else think this section sounds slightly more like an opinion than fact? Also shouldn't the section be highlighting what the city offers currently rather than what has recently closed down?little muddy funkster 18:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nightlife

message: After reverting an edit this morning that had deleted the Reputation section entirely, I read it a bit more closely and decided to try to improve the section a bit. I rewrote and added references to a few of the statements about Hull. I am generally very gung-ho about reliable, objective sources and hesitated a bit about using an external posting board as a source, but as a topic such as "reputation" is inherently subjective, I decided to include it. My own POV is positive as I love the city, but I tried to keep to keep the same blend of positive and negative statements as existed before my edits. I'm not done finding sources and references; if anybody else can find references for the uncited statements still extant in the section, please feel free to add them.  Doonhamer | Banter  20:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed this sentence from the end of the first paragraph in the reputation section: "However, the city did not appear anywhere in the Bottom 10 of the more recent, 2006 chart, where it was replaced by Hackney, London." as this information already existed, with source, just a bit further down the page.  Doonhamer | Banter  01:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

text: As somebody who spent their first 17½ years of their life in Hull (and with a number of relatives still licing there), it's always seemed to me that the city's alleged awfulness is something that defines it to the rest of the country in popular terms, in the same way Liverpool is characterised by various aspects of its population (good or bad), Manchester by its music, etc. Although lacking the likes of John Betjemen's the cultural endorsement of Slough (which that page isn't shy of acknowledging), Hull invariably figures in the Crap Town/Worst Place to Live stakes, although probably more because people expect it to be there, and indeed are keen to put it there because it reinforces what people think already. Nick Cooper 15:09, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Point taken Nick. No one else has seen fit to comment, so in it stays. Doonhamer 17:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reputation

message: It looks like Hull's back on the list in second place, with Middlesbrough the worst. Was wondering what other editors thought of removing all references to this programme entirely from the article? The articles for Manchester, Nottingham, and Middlesbrough, other perennial favorites for the list, make no mention of it, and I don't see how mentioning Hull's ranking every year adds to the article. I'm sure more serious sources for the city's negative and positive qualities can be found. What do others think? Doonhamer 14:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As somebody who spent their first 17½ years of their life in Hull (and with a number of relatives still licing there), it's always seemed to me that the city's alleged awfulness is something that defines it to the rest of the country in popular terms, in the same way Liverpool is characterised by various aspects of its population (good or bad), Manchester by its music, etc. Although lacking the likes of John Betjemen's the cultural endorsement of Slough (which that page isn't shy of acknowledging), Hull invariably figures in the Crap Town/Worst Place to Live stakes, although probably more because people expect it to be there, and indeed are keen to put it there because it reinforces what people think already. Nick Cooper 15:09, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Point taken Nick. No one else has seen fit to comment, so in it stays. Doonhamer 17:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Channel 4's worst places 2007

message: Removed "Paul Collins, attended the University of Hull" from the list of people associated. The link goes only to a disambiguation page with no indication of which Paul Collins there, if any, is this person.  Doonhamer | Banter  15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked all the links on the Paul Collins dab page. None of them indicates which might be the Paul Collins who attended the University of Hull.  Doonhamer | Banter  15:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Paul Collins

message: While I agree that Wikipedia is not a link farm, I do think that the link to the urban construction forum is an appropriate link and is not low quality. I initially removed it last night. But, after re-reading the WP:EL guidelines on discussion forums (generally to be avoided unless the forum is dedicated to the subject of the article, which this one is) and visiting the forum myself, I changed my mind and decided it would be a good addition. The forum users often post useful information and links to genuine third-party source documents such as planning documents and construction company design pages. Considering the article has a section on regeneration in Hull, I see merit in keeping this link.  Doonhamer | Banter  19:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: External link to regeneration forum

message: After reading the article and some other info related to Hull, I think this B-Class rated article is actually a shoe-in for a Good Article.  Any interest in pursuing this status at this point? --Mareklug talk 07:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Think we need to do some work but should be worth the effort if we can get it to at least GA status. See rating comments at Talk:Kingston upon Hull/Comments for points that need addressing first. Keith D 08:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It hadn't occurred to me to submit this article for GA. I was always under the impression that the Music sections of articles on cities and towns, which invariably attract unsourced and oftentimes unsourceable content as bands-of-the-week come and go, would be a stumbling block. I'd be willing to help though. Doonhamer15:58, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added the "Automated Review" output to the comments for further pointers to look at in preparation for GA review. Keith D 20:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I would agree we need lots more reliable references apart from probably the people section as the references, in theory, should be on the wikilinked pages. Keith D 15:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added a couple more tags now and am uncertain about should the Lead and History have more refs? The other sections i have not tagged seem okay. Simply south 21:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I started adding content to the lead a few days ago, drawing from information already existing in the article. This weekend I'll work on sourcing the lead and the the content in the article I drew the lead info from. Doonhamer 13:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Referencing looks good so far, however, it doesn't need to be done for every single sentence or word, just as long as the info is there so after a few sentnces. Simply south 00:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would be good if you can remove the tags from a section when you think we have covered all of the referencing required. May be we can move to the  templates for specific items when we have nearly finished a section. Keith D 15:47, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good Article status-ready, don't you think? 

message: After one too many IP addresses added another flavour-of-the-week band complete with link to its MySpace page to the "current bands to look out for" paragraph, I thought I'd start working on the Popular Music section. I looked to the articles on Birmingham (GA-status) and Manchester (FA-status) for guidance. Neither has a similar list of current local little-known bands, although both mention well-known bands that emerged locally. So I decided to remove the list of local little-known bands as being difficult to source, unmanageable, unencyclopaedic, and prone to misuse for promotional purposes. I've also started trying to locate sources for the remainder of the material in the section. Doonhamer 22:07, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popular Music 

message: It isn't useful to revert to an earlier image in the infobox with nothing more than "it's a far better image" in the edit summary when the criteria by which such a judgment is made isn't defined. Doing so amounts to little more than "I reverted it because I liked the old one better."
The image I use shows a view toward Queen Victoria Square from Carr Lane with several landmarks of Hull visible, such as the Maritime Museum and the Ferens Art Gallery. It also shows a livelier street scene than did the previous photo. That image purported in its caption to show Victoria Square, but really showed nothing more than the architectural details of the upper stories of two buildings in the square, with no sense of direction or perspective for the viewer. According to these criteria, the current photo is "far better". However, I make no claim to the intrinsic worth of either; each is useful in its way.
At any rate, rotating the infobox photo every few weeks to highlight different areas and views of the city would seem to be a good idea, but if anybody feels otherwise, I'm happy to discuss the matter. Doonhamer 23:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The above points made, I've restored the city centre thumbnail in the infobox to the previous version until the Commons server caching issues are sorted permanently. Doonhamer 01:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. Have you not just reverted it too - is that because you "...liked the old one better"? The image you curently have on the page (:Image:Hull City Centre.jpg) is of nothing but a road and double yellow lines. It shows very little of Hull. Admittedly, the previous image is only of two building tops but is far more striking and shows a representation of Hull's city centre. The current image would be far better on the article A1105 road (Carr Lane) if there were one. Im not going to revert again, but a consensus, vote or agreement may be worthwhile. --TFoxton 16:44, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I rotated the image because I stand by the point I make above, that rotating the photo periodically to show different views of the city enhances the article, a point you do not address.  In a few days or weeks, I'd be happy to rotate the photo to one of the KC Stadium or the Hull Maritime Museum or the Arctic Corsair or the Ferens Art Gallery or the Tidal Barrier or the original photo or anything else worthy of note in the city. I'm also curious why you would think that a view of the Maritime Museum and the Ferens Art Gallery constitutes "very little of Hull". The user only needs to click the thumbnail to see the larger image and the description from the Commons, explaining the view as I just did to you. Doonhamer 17:23, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox image rotation

message: it says its gcse pass rate was 50% but it was well below the national average at 25.9% and one school got only 6% pass rate. god they are fucking thick.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.161.33.131 (talk) 17:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a source for this? Secondly, please be civil when writing comments. Simply south 20:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On the topic of schools: Would anybody like to take a crack at sourcing the middle paragraph of the Schools subsection? I started sourcing that section and finished the first paragraph (the last was already sourced), but as I've not lived in the UK since I was two, my familiarity with the UK educational testing system in general, and the assertions in the middle paragraph in particular, is basically nil. I will continue sourcing other sections needing it this weekend. Doonhamer 17:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Failed to locate any suitable sources for this as yet. All I came up with is the single reference to last in the tables which I have added as an example reference for the first sentence. I will keep looking as there must be some reports on it. Can anyone else pitch in with this? Keith D 21:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schools 

message: Substituted at 20:40, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment