Talk:Scotland/Archive 8

message: Further to our recent discussions here regarding history, and especially my preference for more emphasis on modern history, my attention has been attracted to things Scotland-related that are bang up to date. In an attempt to make this article fresher and attractive for readers and repeat visitors, I have initiated this bit under the See also section:
===See also===
====Current events====
*Menzies Campbell
*Charles Kennedy
*Rachel Squire
====Future events====
*2014 Commonwealth Games
*Dunfermline and West Fife by-election, 2006
*Scotland at the 2006 Commonwealth Games
*Scottish parliamentary election, 2007
Please update as and when you spot new articles/topics coming up; and of course delete past events.
I intentionally did not put it in the Template:Scotland topics, because it just looks a bit clumsy and odd. Surely all that is required is a simple link to the nascent List of Scotland-related topics article; which needs an awful lot of work, if anyone is feeling keen: eg. look at the very comprehensive List of topics related to the United Kingdom article. (It is not at all helpful to have that article as an alphabetical list: it needs organised by subject area.)--Mais oui! 10:42, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attempt to make this article more modern, topical and fresh 

message: ====Current events====
*Menzies Campbell
*Charles Kennedy
*Rachel Squire
====Future events====
*2014 Commonwealth Games
*Dunfermline and West Fife by-election, 2006
*Scotland at the 2006 Commonwealth Games
*Scottish parliamentary election, 2007
Please update as and when you spot new articles/topics coming up; and of course delete past events.
I intentionally did not put it in the Template:Scotland topics, because it just looks a bit clumsy and odd. Surely all that is required is a simple link to the nascent List of Scotland-related topics article; which needs an awful lot of work, if anyone is feeling keen: eg. look at the very comprehensive List of topics related to the United Kingdom article. (It is not at all helpful to have that article as an alphabetical list: it needs organised by subject area.)--Mais oui! 10:42, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: See also

message: *2014 Commonwealth Games
*Dunfermline and West Fife by-election, 2006
*Scotland at the 2006 Commonwealth Games
*Scottish parliamentary election, 2007
Please update as and when you spot new articles/topics coming up; and of course delete past events.
I intentionally did not put it in the Template:Scotland topics, because it just looks a bit clumsy and odd. Surely all that is required is a simple link to the nascent List of Scotland-related topics article; which needs an awful lot of work, if anyone is feeling keen: eg. look at the very comprehensive List of topics related to the United Kingdom article. (It is not at all helpful to have that article as an alphabetical list: it needs organised by subject area.)--Mais oui! 10:42, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Future events

message: Apparently this section is too long. The editors, being of their own dispositions, have cut the first have cut away the earlier medieval section and left the long sections on the Norman era, Wars of Independence era, etc. Why has this happened? Now that section is misleading, because editors don't appreciate the subtlety of the period. Mais Oui! has replaced original forms for the early kings for corrupted modern anglicizations, misleading people and going against the current scholarly trend (yeah don't try to say these are the only forms used in English, because the previous forms reflect the forms used by most present scholars of this period for the rulers so named). But who would know that unless they actually read up-to-date material? Well, no-one cares. However, if all that is being cut, there should be no problem reducing the following two paragraphs to a few sentences. If Mais Oui! thinks the history section is too long, maybe he should try shortening it. - Calgacus 22:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that 2000 years of history are being dealt with I don't see what the problem is where length is concerned. There are plenty of other sections that could be trimmed back. Benarty 20:33, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History Section 

message: Should we not have a very brief bit about the prehistory of Scotland. It seems to be rather POV to just start the history bit at the period when when someone else started documenting the country. Although there are no written sources, we do have other respected sources of information, eg archaeology.--Mais oui! 03:40, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, there should be. There used to be anyway. An anonymous user recently added a few sentences about it, but I arrogantly reverted it, because it was pretty crude. Restore it if you like. - Calgacus 03:46, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prehistory 

message: From the article:
Scotland has a high proportion of persons who regard themselves as belonging to 'no religion'. Indeed, this was the second most common response in the 2001 census.
Does anybody know the exact percentage of people counted as having no religion? JesseHogan 01:38, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Off the top of my head: 21%. I saw it somewhere not long ago, but can't remember where. Try Demographics of Scotland and its associated category. I have a sneaking suspicion that that table may have been cut. Now, if we only had a Religion in Scotland article... :) --Mais oui! 02:00, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just shows how useful off-the-top-of-your-head-statistics can be: I was wrong! It was measured at 28% (and slightly more if the 5% "No answer" people are excluded, as is the norm). See table at the Church of Scotland article.--Mais oui! 13:30, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: No religion

message: For all you anti-harpists ;), here's a interesting post recently posted by User:Celtic harper, might be of interest to y'all:  Talk:Harp#Historical_fact. Here also is an interesting link, [Gaelic Harps & Harpers] which suggests the "Irish" (i.e. Gaelic) harp originated with the ... wait for it ... Picts! So there's no need to worry about being associated with the those Erse folk. - Calgacus 17:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harp again 

message: Out of curiosity, has this part been edited? I vaguely recall many moons ago God Save the Queen was mentioned as the de-facto anthem of the UK overall, but now it seems there is no mention. Am I just imagining it was once there, and shouldn't it be made mention of, as believe it or not, a number of Scots (Myself included) Actively like said anthem. Just a thought. 
Kaenei 16:43, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A fair point. The present situation of leaving it empty is rather undesirable though and I'd rather have some mention of something that can be agreed upon. Oh, and incidently, hello from a fellow TSRian. --Breadandcheese 11:37, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In days of yore (such as then) we had a (probably rather too full) discussion right there in the infobox.  I don't have a problem with its not being in the infobox (it was rather verbose) but the discussion above and in that earlier version (a lesser version of which is in the "national symbols" section of the current article) is interesting, encyclopedic, and can be written about neutrally.  I propose we create a National anthem of Scotland article, link to it from here and from List of national anthems, and have in that article a discussion about the positions of GStQ, FoS, SWH, StB, and "none". There's a lot to add, too - it'd be interesting to note what was played at (for example) Rugby Internationals before FoS - was it always StB? What was played at the opening of the Scottish Parliament (just GStQ)? Stuff like that... -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 13:07, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, I would also prefer a link to National anthem of Scotland in the infobox to detail the different ones used (both historically and currently) and to point out that neither the UK nor any of its constituent countries has an official national anthem. (on another point, A Man's A Man for A' That, by Robert Burns is not mentioned above but was sung at the opening of the Scottish Parliament) Benson85 17:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  National Anthem? 

message: A piece of heraldry keeps getting placed above the picture of the head of government, Jack McConnell. I find this to be antediluvian, and just a little disrespectful.
Also, the link to the piece of heraldry (Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom for use in Scotland) keeps getting piped, and simultaneously mis-represented: it is far, far more than merely Elizabeth Windsor's personal arms: it is the coat of arms of the United Kingdom. We have been here before with a certain user persistently trying (and failing) to apply highly misleading captions and links to heraldic arms and flag images. Last year he was trying to tell the world that these same Arms were the "Arms of Scotland" (sic)!?! - ha, ha! --Mais oui! 07:54, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course if you look at the article itself, it confirms they are the arms of Her Majesty in that part of the United Kingdom known as Scotland. Astrotrain 14:21, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. We will need to clarify that page too. --Mais oui! 14:30, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I was speaking in the case that only one were to be used. The arms are ceremonial in nature, whereas Jack McConnel is supposed to serve a practical purpose; to do a job. I'm fine with both being used, but I think that the arms would be better suited in general association with Scotland, rather than simply being confined to the politics section. I'm not saying they aren't important, just that their primary purpose isn't in politics. Canaen 21:42, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text: ... with the correct caption. Why are you so desperate to try to conceal that this is the coat of arms of the United Kingdom? Your behaviour just seems rather odd. --Mais oui! 11:40, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text: You failed to provide an Edit summary explaining why we should provide a deceitful caption to that image. Neither have you supplied one here at Talk. Just why should we be distorting the true nature of the linked-to article with a downright dishonest abuse of the piping facility? --Mais oui! 14:36, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No personal attacks please. And remember you were banned for 3RR violation recently for constant edit warring. There is no justification for trying to prevent the statement that these are Her Majesty's Coat of Arms in Scotland. You only have to go to the article to see that. Indirect links are permitted if used in context to fit situations like this. Astrotrain 14:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Politics section images: [[Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom for use in Scotland]] 

message: Pursuant to a removed addition I made on the preamble to the Portal:Scotland page, I guess I should discuss this here. The intro in this article mentions that the parliaments were united in 1707, that Scotland is a "constituent country" of the UK and that Scotland has enjoyed distinct status since, but does not mention that the Scottish Parliament was established and Scotland now has some legislative powers. A sentence reading something like "A popular referendum on devolution lead to the inauguration of the Scottish Parliament in 1999. The Parliament has legislative power over several areas of state including justice, health and transport." As this is about "Scotland" and not the history of Scotland I feel it is very important to mention contemporary rather than just historical political upheavals. The fact that Scottish education system is mentioned and bluelinked in the intro but Scottish Parliament is not is at best illogical. Deizio 12:09, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  introduction 

message: The politics section was seriously, indeed monumentally, flawed in a range of areas. 
* Executive power is not co-vested in the UK and Scottish parliaments. It is in neither. Under the British system of government (as in most parliamentary democracies) executive power is vested in the head of state, the British case what is called the Queen-in-Council. Parliament's only role is in either directly or indirectly shaping who the head of state appoints to exercise their executive power. First year undergrads would get failed in an exam if they wrote that executive power was vested in a parliament. (I hope none of them used this article for their essays!)
* Nothing is vested jointly in the UK and Scottish parliaments. That implies co-equal constitutional status. Legislative power is vested in the Queen-in-Parliament (to use the technical term), or in reality (as the Queen no longer has much of an activist role in legislation, except in one area) in parliament. The UK Parliament devolved some of its powers to the Scottish parliament, but they can be undevolved at any stage by a simple Act of Parliament. In reality a British parliament would have to be completely hairbrained to do it without consulting first with the Scottish people, but in theory they could today pass an Act abolishing the Scottish parliament and executive and there is nothing the Scottish parliament could do legally about it. (The result, politically, would be UDI which is why the British parliament would be hairbrained to do it, but that is political practice, not constitutional reality.) 
As the British parliament is sovereign, it has to have its role described first, and then describe how a devolved administration and assembly has taken over some of its roles. To do otherwise is to imply that the Scottish parliament is a national parliament, not a regional assembly subject to a national parliament. Personally I believe Scotland should have a national parliament, but we have to cover reality, not wishes. 
The whole section was littered with substandard understandings of terminology and constitutional structures. If the section as written was replicated in a political science essay it would have been lucky to get a pass mark. Encyclopaedias have to do better than that. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 15:16, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Politics section

message: In both the Kingdom of Scotland article, and the Royal coat of arms of Scotland, different Arms are given (Sort of). The UK article uses the combined Anglo-Scottish Royal Coat of Arms, as does the KoS article. The difference seems to be that the Lion Rampant is the Arms of Scotland, while the full Unicron-supported Coat or Arms is the Royal Coat of Arms of Scotland. What's with the difference in which arms used between these articles? Canaen 21:36, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No difference, the supporters are part of the full achievement of arms yet the shield itself is often used in heraldry also simply as a scaled-down version. The only difference which is generally used today (although with a lot of exceptions) is that the helmet is used below the crest when symbolising the personal arms of the monarch and just the crown when symbolising the kingdom. I may have missed the point of your question a bit though, I fear. --Breadandcheese 03:36, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arms 

message: It's not evident to me from the above edit summaries why links to material from the Royal Scottish Geographical Society (not notorious spammers, as far as I know) are being deleted.  Anyone care to elucidate?  Alai 23:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Beats me. Looks like kneejerkism. --Mais oui! 23:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wikipedia is not a depository for external website links. I removed some spam links to commerical geneology websites, and also decided to remove this link as well. Only significant, relevant external links should be included. Astrotrain 14:20, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see why I was unable to conclude anything from the edit summaries, then.  Can you expand on why you "decided" this, and why they're not "significant" or "relevant"?  Alai 14:24, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Spam links" and <rollback button> 

message: I have removed the new sub-section added today:
***
===Rivers===
The ten major rivers of Scotland, in order of length, are:
#River Tay  193 km (120 miles)
#River Spey 172 km (107 miles) 
#River Clyde 171 km (106 miles)  
#River Tweed 156 km (97 miles)  
#River Dee 137 km (85 miles)  
#River Don 132 km (82 miles)  
#River Forth 105 km (65 miles)   
#River Findhorn 101 km (63 miles)   
#River Deveron 98 km (61 miles)   
#River Annan 79 km (49 miles)
See main article List of rivers in Scotland
***
The "Geography" section is already quite long, and we link prominently to the main Geography of Scotland article at the top of the section, which links to all the other articles: rivers, mountains, lochs etc.
The Scotland article is already 52 kilobytes, and that section pushed it up to 53 kilobytes. 
Also seems a bit unbalanced to list major rivers without listing other major geographical features, and we can't go down that road because we would just end up duplicating the Geography of Scotland article here at the main article, which kind of defeats the purpose of having these subsidiary articles. Sorry to the IP User who created the new bit! --Mais oui! 10:23, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of new "Rivers" section 

message: The ten major rivers of Scotland, in order of length, are:
#River Tay  193 km (120 miles)
#River Spey 172 km (107 miles) 
#River Clyde 171 km (106 miles)  
#River Tweed 156 km (97 miles)  
#River Dee 137 km (85 miles)  
#River Don 132 km (82 miles)  
#River Forth 105 km (65 miles)   
#River Findhorn 101 km (63 miles)   
#River Deveron 98 km (61 miles)   
#River Annan 79 km (49 miles)
See main article List of rivers in Scotland
***
The "Geography" section is already quite long, and we link prominently to the main Geography of Scotland article at the top of the section, which links to all the other articles: rivers, mountains, lochs etc.
The Scotland article is already 52 kilobytes, and that section pushed it up to 53 kilobytes. 
Also seems a bit unbalanced to list major rivers without listing other major geographical features, and we can't go down that road because we would just end up duplicating the Geography of Scotland article here at the main article, which kind of defeats the purpose of having these subsidiary articles. Sorry to the IP User who created the new bit! --Mais oui! 10:23, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rivers

message: Ive noticed a bit of small scale edit war going on over the statement:
"Scotland shares many aspects of culture with the rest of UK/Europe and the wider Western world." 
And i think it makes more sense having the UK rather than Europe in there. Our closest cultural relations are obviously the other British nations and the more distantly related Europe is already covered in "the wider Western World" - and are we really more closely related to Europe than Canada,USA,NZ or Australia? Because these countries are effectively the "wider Western world" mentioned if Europe is named instead of the UK.  An Siarach
: Agree 100%- Scottish culture is closely linked with the rest of the UK, and then the other Anglo-Saxon countries and the links should reflect that. Astrotrain 22:36, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Putting the UK is extremely parochial: European culture has a heritage of thousands of years; the UK is a spring chicken, barely out of its nappies in the wider scheme of things, and any "UK culture" (if there even is such a thing: where is the source for that?) is purely derived from mainstream European culture. --Mais oui! 22:48, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And by the way, when exactly did Scotland become an "Anglo-Saxon" country? --Mais oui! 22:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Scotland's culture, government etc was influenced greatly by the Anglo-Saxons, as was England to a somewhat greater degree. If you're speaking racially, then I imagine there's not much difference between Scotland and England on that concern. --Breadandcheese 03:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was certainly not speaking "racially", and it is hard to fathom what Astrotrain is trying to say with his reference to "Anglo-Saxon" (a medieval ethnic group by the way, certainly not a "race"). Scotland is a civic nation, not an ethnically- or linguistically-defined nation. Race and culture are not synonyms. (Incidentally, if you are speaking "racially", then the vast majority of all Europeans are the same race, let alone the majority of English people and Scottish people.) --Mais oui! 05:33, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The UK has a rich cultural heritage, of which Scotland is clearly a part of. There is very little that Scottish culture has in common with Europe. I see you are also deleting another valid link to the UK politics article. Astrotrain 22:51, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "The UK has a rich cultural heritage" - what is your source for that? England has a very rich cultural heritage, Wales has one too, so does Ireland and Scotland, but the UK? Hardly. The UK is a state. The only things that states have is an administrative and political culture: real culture is a property of communities, nations and countries. "There is very little that Scottish culture has in common with Europe" ha, ha, ha: you should be on the stage.  This article is about Scotland: all the Scotland articles link to all the relevant UK articles: there is no need to clutter this page with duplicate links. --Mais oui! 22:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text:  Scotland has most in common with Ireland, not with England or the USA; I know some don't like that, but this applies whatever way you look at it - history, language (Gaelic or Scots), religion, landscape, cultural image, etc, etc. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 23:05, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with Angus McLellan; just remove the two sentences. --Craig Stuntz 00:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Yep, I must admit that three years of living in Calgary has only confirmed for me the enormous amount that Scotland and Canada have in common. Most Scots fit in over here without missing a beat (as do the vast majority of Canadians who move to Scotland). -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:19, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Middle class Scots maybe. Working class Scots (particularly from the West of Scotland) do not fit in so easily because there is a definite language and cultural barrier to be crossed. Benarty 11:39, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Anybody wanting a crash-course in human culture may want to have a wee keek at Maslow's hierarchy of needs. A somewhat flawed and criticised model, but nevertheless tremendously informative... and compelling, because it pretty much sums up 99% of what you need to know about human "culture" in one small triangle. (Scottish culture, to a Scottish person, may be the tiny little point at the very top of Self-actualisation: so small in the wider scheme of things that it is barely visible... but it is still there.) [... upon re-considering the model it is pretty clear that there are aspects of "Scottishness" pretty much throughout the whole spectrum of needs, so Scottish culture could certainly not be confined to just one node.] --Mais oui! 10:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Scotland shares a very similar economy (the environment is similar also) with Norway.  IP Address 19:21, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oil- very similar. Financial services, Scotch whisky, textiles, electronics, sheep farming, tourism....- not similar. Astrotrain 19:25, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Norse goat farming is not much removed from sheep farming--which is in and of itself a very English thing, as is textiles, btw.  How is the tourism so different?  Actually, Norway is becoming a service-based country, but not as reliant upon that as natural resources just yet.  Nobody would argue on the matter of finances, neither is whiskey particularly relevant--each nation has their own national drink to some extent.  IP Address 19:31, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  True, but Scotch whiskey can only be manufactured in Scotland. Of course perhaps the most significant point of difference is that Norway is far more prosperous and successful than Scotland!!!! Astrotrain 19:37, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't be so down on yourself.  IP Address 19:39, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Attempts to deny that Scotland shares a lot more in common culturally with the rest of the UK than it does with continental Europe are probably driven by constitutional politics as much as anything else but looking at it objectively how can it be otherwise? 300 years of incorporating union have inevitably left their mark so Scotland and England share a strong shared British character on that basis. Acknowledging that reality does not automatically imply that Scotland would be better off in future as a constitutional region rather than a full EU member state. Benarty 11:39, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Shared Culture?