Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming/Archive 14

message: The most up to date views have been covered up for too long already. The main science views are that NLP is unsupported. The latest science views (post 95) all see NLP as far worse than previously assessed. Not only is it unsupported - but it also shows every sign of being a pseudoscience and a cult. Note that as yet I have left the term - cult - out of the opening. It can legitimately be placed there according to NPOV policy. I've been urged by many editors here to check up on the policies of Wikipedia - and the non-negotiable policies all support what I have written. Those are all the main views of the opening. Devilly represents the most recent views of NLP (basically its finished as a therapy - now its just a minor plaything of HRM minorities) Thus according to due weight rules - those human resource subjects only get minority mention. Up to now Sharpley has had a huge mention but actually only his main conclusion it taken into account nowadays (NLP failed the tests). The more relevant views now are towards pointing out NLP's pseudoscience characters. So thanks for pointing me towards the WPrules people. Looks like they do support good research after all. AlanBarnet 07:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please Fainites. WP:NOFEEDING. 203.134.139.32 11:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi there, I'm not quite sure where I should put my comment - but this seems the most sensible place. Feel free to move it to a more appropriate place (this debate seems to be split-up across multpile sections). Let me introduce myself, I'm Grant Devilly and wrote the article people have been mentioning (Power Therapy article in 2005 in Australian & New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry) and was alerted to this page by Comaze. My article started from the premise that the scientific method was a reliable choice of paradigms for inspecting psychiatric practices. This includes the assumption of the null hypothesis until the weight of evidence tips the balance into the other direction. The main point from my article, in general, is that many mental health practices are these days completely unsupported by any form of scientific evidence, have marginal support or don't even attempt to lay the foundations of testable hypotheses. NLP came into the latter category, but it is so well known in this regard that using precious publication space to demonstrate it again seemed pointless (the reviewers and editors agreed). Besides, the VKD section demonstrated it anyway (VKD is a spin-off from NLP). There have been no new randomised controlled trials of NLP (I did a lit search) and the old studies suggest placebo. However, my article was really pointing out the influencing strategies used by those who traffick various products to make a profit, and the subsequent committment to the product made by those who buy or use the product. Some call this cult behaviour - but it all depends upon the definition one sets-up to test. In no way does this mean that other 'mainstream' practices are immune from the same problems. However, the main difference relies upon falsifiability, and NLP is similar to many other products (EMDR, TIR, EFT, etc) in mental health in that at no point have the originators or progenitors of the practice been willing to state the terms under which the practice can be categorically rejected. Showing no replicable evidence of superiority over any other validated method and becoming 'untestable' led to NLP being help-up as the archetypical pseudoscience which enabled me to introduce the new stable of contenders. I did not conduct a new RCT into NLP nor did I conduct a new meta-analysis of the available data. I know some will not like what I have written here, but 'like' is not a 'scientific' word. If people reject science as the yardstick then that's a completely different argument. Hope this helps. Grant 11:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes very interesting Prof Devilly - and reassuring to get confirmation. Thanks. AlanBarnet 12:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi all. I added the context to Prof Devillys view on NLP being an archetypal pseudoscience. It was removed. I am not sure what can or cannot be added from the authors statements on this talkpage. Any idea what the policy is? AlanBarnet 06:42, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The most up to date and reliable views

message: Fainites, Comaze, 58. and non-sock editors... regarding my changes to structure, groupings of quotes and addition of popular culture/media reception section, I'm not married to anything. Feel free to discuss and/or edit. A note: The education section disappeared a while ago, I think there's a lot of resources out there for that section to come back. Furthermore, I also believe there's a lot of popular media resources regarding the topic that can be expanded on if anyone's up for the task. Doc Pato 19:51, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate you letting us know. I'm more of an edit first discuss later style editor also. If I think a nonconcurrence is important I'll raise it on the talk page. Regarding the education section. Please go ahead; I hope you can keep it to a reasonable "due weight" size (i.e. not too big). 58.178.156.249 23:23, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Popular Culture, Structural Edits and Quote Moves

message: Regarding these quotes:
:*Drenth (1999)... states "pseudo-scientists flirt with scientific terms and concepts, and suggest that they want to participate in the scientific debate, albeit in an anti-positivist manner." and goes on to say "but even for new theories and hypothetical frameworks, the requirement still holds that they should be scrutinized and tested on logical grounds and, in the case of empirical or experimental science, on the basis of empirical or experimental evidence" .[34]
:*Drenth (2003) expands his argument in saying "Unlike diagnosis, predicition of human performance or behavior, and assessment, therapy is not a (applied) sciencific activity. Criteria for therapeutic activity is effectiveness, not verity; at stake is not whether it is true but whether it works". At first sight this would seem to accord with NLP's "what works" philosophy. However, Drenth, using NLP as his prime example, goes on to say "But what brings some of these therapeutic approaches into the category of pseudoscience is the claim that their presumptions are predicated on scientific understanding and scientific evidence." [36]
:*According to Devilly (2005) it is common for pseudoscientific developments to set up a granfalloon in order to promote in-group rituals and jargon, and to attack critics.[41] [dubious — see talk page]
Are they talking about pseudoscience in general, or is he talking about NLP specifically, and if not, do these really belong here? I mean, they says it's pseudoscience. We get the point. Include that. However, do we need a lecture about the general nature of pseudoscience in this already bloated article, cited or not? Doc Pato 22:41, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  They're talking about a gamut of dodgy therapies and they lump in NLP too. However, these citations appear fairly general about pseudoscience. I wouldn't suggesting dumping them, when you could see if they fit in the pseudoscience article instead. The "at first sight" phrase is certainly POV and violates WP:WTA. I would suggest leaving the Drenth citations and cutting the commentary. The Devilly citation is fairly general and cryptic and probably doesn't add much to the article really. 58.178.156.249 23:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi. Right now I don't see the point in any of those passages - especially when they are full of argument (However ....).  They may be useful when explaining why some say NLP is pseudoscientific - but I would say they can be added more concisely. AlanBarnet 12:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Drenth seems like a wonderful addition to the article. The commentary around the citations however is problematic:
* Drenth expands his argument (implies a value judgement on the original 1999 argument and implies an increasing validity of a mysterious and unmentioned larger argument that somehow applies to NLP)
* At first sight (gives away a bias and violates WP:WTA)
* this would seem (guesses the reader's impression and marks the beginning of an OR interpretation)
I would prefer the following. Cutting down and de-emphasing the 1999 citation in favour of the 2003, something like this:
* Drenth (1999) states "pseudo-scientists flirt with scientific terms and concepts, and suggest that they want to participate in the scientific debate, albeit in an anti-positivist manner." and Drenth (2003) uses the "movement known by the name NLP" to illustrate his descriptions of pseudoscience, stating "Unlike diagnosis, prediction of human performance or behavior, and assessment, therapy is not a (applied) sciencific activity. Criteria for therapeutic activity is effectiveness, not verity;" ... "But what brings some of these therapeutic approaches into the category of pseudoscience is the claim that their presumptions are predicated on scientific understanding and scientific evidence." [36]
I've cut the middle part of the 2003 citation because it is an aside from the core of the citation and confuses the overall meaning too much. Though it still needs work, I think my proposal here lacks the repetition, POV commentary and randomness of the original. If anyone likes it enough, go ahead and insert it by all means. Otherwise, suggestions? 58.178.141.147 12:53, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drenth and Devilly

message: Comaze, what happened to all your papers from other disciplines on NLP techniques and methods that you set out about 2 1/2 inches ago? We seem to have been distracted by other matters. It seems to me that despite the lack of scientific underpinnings, there are people out there doing little bits of research on individual techniques, and indeed using them as tools in other therapies and disciplines. I have Dowlem, Lichtenberg and bits of Brown and Sandhu.
Dowlem (Research Associate at Roffey Park Management Institute) in 'NLP-help or hype? Investigating the uses of neurolinguistic programming in management learning'(1996) concludes;
"with regard to communication, the NLP techniques using language patterns appear to be of use in management development. These techniques were found to be of use from personal experience, from the views of others, and are suppoted to a degree from the research evidence. The meta-model questioning techniques also emerge as having merit...There is a disappointing lack of research evidence on NLP and a clear need for further work if NLP is to achieve wider credibility in the developments field. That it is enthusiastically supported by those who practice it is both it's strength and potential weakness"Fainites 16:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The NLP perspective one DSM would be a useful contrast somewhere. The meta model challenges many of those DSM overgeneralisations if they are limiting. The other argument is that the content categories in the DSM also reduces the ability to respond to the client in the moment (sensory acuity). --Comaze 07:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I believe this was one the methdological flaws in research to date raised by Einspruch and Forman (1985). From memory some of the researchers used anxiety and depression scales to test the effectiveness of some process. One part of NLP is to convince someone who is "depressed" to take ownership of their thought process and behaviours. In this case using DSM like diagnosis scales would be at counteract the NLP model. This is from memory so I'll have to check --Comaze 00:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

text: He uses NLP primarily for therapy; and, according to his works, his personal approach to therapy is eclectic and includes various methods (such as psychosynthesis, transactional analysis, existential therapy etc) besides "pure" NLP. According to the abstract of Esterbrook's dissertation, Sergei V. Kovalev (2001) has introduced a set of structured NLP interventions that were translated from his book Return from the Edge of the Abyss: Seven Steps to Recovery, NLP - Therapy for Drug or Alcohol Addiction. These NLP interventions are reflected in a three step pilot model that can be applied to help under-achieving community college students use coping resources and successful life experiences in approaching their academic work. The intervention techniques were developed involving applications of cognitive-behavioral exercises (e.g. use of imagery). What exactly do you want to know him to have actually said about NLP? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eli the Barrow-boy (talk • contribs) 23:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I haven't seen one and can't check on that right now for I'm quite busy. I'll try to find this out in a few days, maybe a week or so. He might not have been interested in strict scientific research, as most NLPers do, however I need to know it for sure, since he's got all these credentials, and we may be lucky to find some useful information for Wikipedia. For now the Esterbrook's research is the only research of his findings that I am aware of. Maybe that's temporarily. Eli the Barrow-boy 21:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Technology

message: Parts Integration added. Fainites 23:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, removed again. It's just one of many patterns, no more or less notable. I'd like to add a request that when we add new sections we integrate the information in such a way that it facilitates a general reduction in the overall size of the article. The article is already far too long. There are daughter articles for this stuff. Keep in the mind that, in giving equal weight to all sides of NLP, when we write long sections on every NLP technique we are also be obliged to write long sections on why NLP is bad, ,pseudoscience, etc. Please keep it short and have the bare minimum about each technique that a complete newbie could understand. 58.178.141.147 05:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

text: You're right. I think I overstated my case quite a bit, and didn't realise the reframing section  was a reduction. Still when I read it I thought there's no way I would understand this if I hadn't already studied it. 58.178.100.29 03:21, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I think methods or techniques could be used. They both seem to be words used in the literature. AlanBarnet 06:37, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Concepts and Methods

message: :Thanks, I've been mulling it over. I'll do that now and see how it looks. --Comaze 10:03, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not sure I follow why we'd want separate concepts from techniques. There's very little difference from the originators perspectives so it might just come across as OR from us to tease it all apart. Still I'm all for removing jargon. 202.67.114.30 21:54, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Not now, not ever. Let's never divide this section up. I cannot see why you are pushing to restructure the article. There is nothing wrong with the current structure. Separating concepts and techniques is illogical for NLP. An NLP concept imparts a technique and an NLP technique is interwoven in concepts. Is Rapport an action or is it an idea? It's both. Is a reframe a concept or technique? It's both. And so on for all NLP concepts and methods. Anyway... still working on less jargon. However, the term predicates isn't jargon, we can link it into predicate (grammar). 202.67.114.30 05:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  All good. In discussion with Comaze previously we decided to put history first à la Psychotherapy. Works there, no? Works here too? I like history first because it's more tangible for my mind than concepts and methods. I think many articles begin this way. 202.67.114.30 10:53, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

text:  Perhaps if we included some "concepts and methods" in the history section rather than the current potted political history of scientific debate it would be more accessible and interesting? 202.67.114.30 11:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Is it ok now? --Comaze 10:12, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup taskforce issues

message: Does anybody object if I remove the 'unverified source' tag from the manipulation section? The two remaining sources contain full and accurate quotations from those two authors. The other seven citations were all false and have been removed. Fainites 23:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really. I'd like the jargon SHAM to be completely removed. It adds nothing but more anti-NLP thumping. I think it's the kind of stuff that the cleanup taskforce say is labouring the point. In fact, I'll do the edit and see what you think. 58.178.134.120 00:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Since I've merged it with commerce, the misinterpretation section tag is still appropriate. 58.178.134.120 00:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I was about to write "move it to Tony_Robbins#Neuro-linguistic_programming" but I notice it's already there. There's no need to duplicate it here. We can link to Tony Robbins for those who are interested. 58.178.134.120 12:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

text: We could report them to the blacklist. I think he has the same IP every time. 58.179.166.57 01:33, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Manipulation

message: Could we archive the inactive threads? It is way too long. --Comaze 17:15, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. 58.178.100.29 03:34, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Also created Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming/_longterm_abuser_discussion for archiving discussion from or about permabanned sockpuppet. All present and future sockpuppet posts will be moved there, especially all the recent trolling and disinformation. I note that all editors are in agreement     on the sockpuppet problem on this page. Please post specific feedback on my talk page. 58.178.142.37 05:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving 

message: Hi Faintes. I'd like Comaze's input on this also. While I understand there's some pretty fundamental concepts and techniques in NLP. My understanding is also that many of these concepts and techniques have altered over the years to fit with the changing views of Banderl, Grinder and whoever else, but also to address criticisms. So I see the logic in putting concepts and methods first (before history) and then  including in history the various alterations NLP techniques themselves have gone through. Anyway, keep going I like your changes to the article. 58.179.167.179 22:35, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I'd like to stick to the main models. The scope of the article shouldn't include Parts Integration, Timeline therapy, etc. 58.179.167.179 03:30, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think that parts negotiation and integration is already covered by reframing, and timelines can be explained in terms of submodalities. The general idea in NLP is that people organise their subjective representation of time spacially. Metaphorically speaking, the past might seem to be behind and the future out to the front. Another person might represent past to the left and future to the right. The general idea in NLP is that people will gesture toward the location of their internal images when talking about the past or the future. When someone says their future is looking up, the internal image is literally evalated in their mind. --Comaze 06:16, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I was writing from memory. I'll check the sources. --Comaze 00:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Just keep in mind that any synthesis needs to be attributed to a source. To avoid conflict on this article we've overused quotes and extended paraphrases. Fainites' proposal is a necessary next step. --Comaze 00:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

text: There's a summary of the many different interpretation of PRS and a quote from Grinder & Bostic St Clair (2001) here: "John Grinder has recommended that 'anyone using the representational system material (e.g. eye movement patterns, unconscious selection of predicates....), [should] recognize and act congruently with the proposition that 'the temporal value of a representational system diagnosis is 30 seconds.' --Comaze 00:42, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

text: You'd expect more from a linguist. In his defense it was a quote from an interview. --Comaze 02:50, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concepts versus History 

message: If you do a search for "client" or "practitioner" in the article you'll see that we assume the reader understands the context of these words and yet we never explicitly frame their use anywhere in the article. I think this is an oversight because many readers won't even know why these terms are used. I think it that needs rectifying, to say that NLP happens in seminars and in practitioner to client consultation. Perhaps in the introduction? Your thoughts? 58.179.187.226 17:17, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How about in 'Applications'? Fainites 19:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually, how about the first sentence reading 'Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a set of techniques, axioms and beliefs, that adherents use primarily as an approach to personal development, both with individuals in a practitioner/client relationship and in training seminars. Fainites 20:03, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I've put in mention of practitioner /client in the general description. What do you think? Fainites 21:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Practitioners and Clients 

message: Rather than the major rewrites suggested, I've tried some restructuring. Bearing in mind the advice of Mr Cleanup, I've attempted a two sentence description at the beginning, (not quite got it I think) followed by what was the applications section to describe it's use, with the more detailed description now appearing at the beginning of concepts and methods. The much discussed sentence on popularity and lack of scientific validation now appears in General description, as does the point that it's basic underlying principles are unsupported by scientific research, although many techniques appear to have been borrowed from other disciplines. I think this arrangement gives the average intelligent but 'NLP ignorant' reader some idea of what it all is and where, at the outset. Thoughts please.Fainites 14:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mirroring is one way to build rapport. It is an essential part of the Milton model that has been incorporated into NLP. Erickson would pace (through matching and mirroring) posture and breathing to build rapport and then seek to lead his clients to other states for therapeutic work. Erickson was the origin of the rapport model in NLP. --Comaze 23:53, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

text: No we don't. All good. Let's see how it turns out. 58.178.206.62 21:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I have Krugman article here. I'll check it when I get back to the office. --Comaze 00:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

text: It really depends on who is teaching the rapport. If the mirroring is done deliberately it comes across as a wooden pantomime. Furthermore rapport occurs naturally when people are interested in each other. This is essentially what NLP is trying to capture. Rapport is more like a dance. --Comaze 12:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

text: If someone is especially adept in one sensory system then it might be a good idea to develop the use of the other systems. Someone who is good with visualisation, might develop their auditory system. --Comaze 12:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

text: The study by Krugman et al tested NLP as a single session treatment for public speaking anxiety. A procedure described in Frogs into Princes was compared against Cognitive behavior therapy and waiting list control group. Krugman et al state that "the results of this study cast doubt on the effectiveness of NLP as a single-session treatment for anxiety. On the other hand, they tell us nothing about the effectiveness of these procedures when administered over a more extended period of time." In discussion of the finds they conclude by stating, "Beyond challenging the therapeutic effectiveness of the single-session phobia treatment, the findings of this research argue strongly for continued study of neuro-linguistic programming and other behavior change interventions that have achieved widespread popularity in the absence of data supporting their utility" Martin Krugman, Irving Kirsch, Cynthia Wickless, Len Milling, Heidi Golicz and Anna Toth (1985) Neuro-Linguistic Programming Treatment for Anxiety: Magic or Myth? Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology Vol. 53, No. 4, 526-530 --Comaze 01:36, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Major Rewrite (not)

message: Hi Fainites, Comaze, Doc. I think we need to take great care to present the concise details of NLP in the introduction, and I'm not sure that we've been doing that too successfully yet. I think we should be clearly generalising NLP in the intro so that new readers can actually understand what it is all about. I've noticed that some of the current writing attempts to convey NLP so precisely that it reads almost mathematically. This style does not lend itself to a clear exposition for a new reader. It reads a bit like:
* NLP is a great many things, though mostly known as X, it is also Y, because it was first used as Z, yet the underlying theory is A, with parts of B also.
It's just a mess for a first time reader. All we really need to say is:
* NLP is mostly known as X.
The rest can be made clear in further sections, but best kept out of the intro. With this in mind, I've been cutting a few of what I call overly fluffy sentences. Let me know if you want to discuss restoring any. 
Also, please be careful how far the criticism of NLP get pushed down in the intro. They need to appear in the first couple of sentences obviously. Take care. 211.26.224.45 00:06, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. Could you fill in the X ? :) --Comaze 01:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I've restored it. I think that example help the reader understand the purpose of the meta model. --Comaze 00:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Due concision 

message: I added an update to the ANI article. Feel free to comment there or not as you wish. AlanBarnet 07:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New NLP update on ANI article