Talk:White Rose

message: Additional details were obtained from
* Wei%C3%9Fe_Rose 
* monograph by Dr. Bernd Kleinhans
* the leaflets
* The White Rose (Die Weiße Rose) (more information)
DwightKingsbury 08:51, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Details added to account of July 1942-Feb 1943 activities 

message: Is anything known about how the White Rose was generally received by Germans during the war? Ben moss 23:29, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influence during the war? 

message: There is a small group of students at the LMU which want to rename the university to Geschwister-Scholl-University. The renaming is not supported by most of the university.Stone 13:37, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ludwig-Maximilians-University 

message: Does anyone know why the group chose to call themselves the White Rose? ThePeg 00:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The meaning of the name "The White Rose" is taken from Church history as well.  The rose was the medieval symbol of the Roman Catholic Church (note how many medieval paintings have the Virgin Mary holding a rose, signifying her care over the Church).  The color white is the color of purity.  Thus the White Rose was the "pure" church -- as opposed to those Christians who cowered in the face of adversity. The Scholls especially tried very hard, in their own youthful ways, to try to help Jews and others in concentration camps, even if only to sneak a bar of chocolate to workers on the road, etc.  Danwaggoner (talk) 19:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Why the White Rose?

message: Can someone please make "white rose" and "german resistance" in simple english, so people that just know rough english will understand it? 
thanks,
--Steve 02:28, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  simple english.. 

message: Is there a reason the TOC on this article is not the standard Wikipedia one? If it's just personal preference, I think it should be changed to the normal one. Xiner (talk, email) 17:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I boldly removed the TOCright tag. Hope it's okay. Xiner (talk, email) 22:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The TOC 

message: The intro is too long and needs to be shortened. Xiner (talk, email) 22:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro

message: Please note that the first sentence under "The group" reads: "The White Rose consisted of five students — Sophie Scholl, her brother Hans Scholl, Alex Schmorell, Willi Graf, and Christoph Probst, all in their early twenties — and a professor of philosophy, Kurt Huber." at this moment. However, the article Hans Conrad Leipelt refers to Leipelt as a member of The White Rose as well. Furthermore it is known that there were more members than "just" five. The German movie Sophie Scholl – The Final Days even lists more than a dozen members:
* Death penalty:
** Hans Scholl
** Sophie Scholl
** Christoph Probst
** Alexander Schmorell
** Willi Graf
** Hans Leipelt
** Kurt Huber
* Prison:
** Helmut Bauer
** Heinrich Bollinger
** Willi Bollinger
** Eugen Grimminger
** Heinrich Guter
** Hans Hirzel
** Susanne Hirzel
** Marie-Luise Jahn
** Traute Lafrenz
** Franz Müller
** Gisela Schertling
** Katharina Schüddekopf
--141.43.39.53 13:46, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obvious errors 

message: does anyone else feel the "Legacy" section feels like it was written by a publicist? it spends a lot of time dwelling on the book, and it reads like a press release to me. perhaps this book is being over-emphasized in the article? just looking for other opinions here. ADM 17:13, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  publicist's text included in article? 

message: The article on her reads in part, "Her last words were "Die Sonne scheint noch," meaning "The sun still shines" while this reads 'Last words of Sophie Scholl: "…your heads will fall as well". There is, however, some dispute over whether Sophie or Hans actually said this; other sources claim that Sophie's final words were "God, you are my refuge into eternity."'
Can anyone determine which is correct? Thanks --Fitzhugh 06:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last words of Sophie Scholl? 

message: The introduction implies that they were sent to concentration camps and/or starved to death. This is not true. Hans, Sophie and Christoph were executed by guillotine. 
Karlotta (talk) 03:10, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  How they died 

message: The section on their capture states that the dropping of leaflets was "observed by the custodian John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt." Is this a joke, or a real German name? Moarbeer (talk) 03:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  His name is my name, too? 

message: The Iraq war tie in the quote section has nothing to do with White Rose. Maybe as a reference in the a "References in popular culture" but it most certainly isn't a quote of the white Rose. Smells of unrelated political bias.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.139.38.144 (talk) 11:17, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Despite 's assertion, the quoted article does not contain a mention of "White Rose" or the Scholl siblings. That section was originally introduced in  in December 2006 by . I'm going to remove it. Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:43, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

text: An insane person is claiming that they are not the same, or even from the same leaflet, despite the text below both clearly saying "From the first leaflet."  I'm trying to take out the redundancy, but crazyperson keeps reverting, possibly due to being crazy?!?  I cannot even say.  Echeneida (talk) 03:05, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh god, I just realized it might not be psychotic blindness on Smartse's part, but confusion.  Smartse, look at the first quotebar in the article, the one at the opening of the first section of the article, the "Members" section.  This is the one which is identical to the one I keep deleting, which, like the latter, says "From the first pamphlet".  Do you see? Echeneida (talk) 03:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotes 

message: In the Article, Notes Section, three citations, [1], [3] and [8], lead to a web site www.jlrweb.com which has no information on the subject. There is a sub-heading "Hans and Sophie Scholl" on the web site, but it leads to a dead end. This looks to me like a purely commercial site, and should not be included in these citations.
Signed: James Toner  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.2.175.51 (talk) 16:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notes Section - Citations 

message: IMO information from this article should be linked to, not duplicated in, Die weiße Rose. --Kleinzach 00:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this merge discussion might be in the wrong place. This is the article about the group of Munich students "Weiße Rose". The article about the Zimmermann opera Die Weiße Rose lifted a paragraph from this article — that's where the duplication lies and that paragraph and all images should be removed from the opera article. This article mentions the opera, as it should, but is otherwise not affected by the opera article and there is no need for a discussion to merge here. Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:13, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: Due to their scan quality, I had trouble reading the PDFs of the original leaflets in the "Further reading" section. The text only versions would be fine, however they use standardised spelling (e.g. "daß" instead of "dass", typos are corrected, etc.), different formatting, and don't give the 'flavour' of the originals. As such, I've made up some PDF transcriptions of the originals. I've tried to make them as close to the scanned versions as possible, including reproducing their formatting and spelling. Although they don't provide new information, I believe they would be useful and interesting to include. They give the reader a legible version of the original leaflets while retaining most of their feel.
I would be grateful if anyone could help me with the following:
1. Would the new PDFs help to improve the current page (i.e. are they wanted)?
2. Do the PDFs have to exist on an external site first, or can they be uploaded directly to Wikipedia (and if so, how)?
3. Might there somehow be copyright issues with adding them?
4. If any of these question would be better asked elsewhere, please point me in the right direction :-)
Cesses (talk) 15:08, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add new PDFs of leaflets? 

message: Removing this text added to the lead by 84.191.110.223 on 26 May 2009 with the edit summary "Weiße Rose and Royal Airforce", as it is confusing and possibly inappropriate."R Freisler was stopped effectivly by an Allied Bombardement at 3 Feb 1945 in Berlin-Tiergarten in further criminalizing, humiliating, killing f.i. Hitler/nazi- and Amnesty opponent Mr v. Schlabrendorff ("They all are guilty and must be persecuted within and towards the Rule of Law.") and was stopped successful too in targeting, humiliating, terrorising and breaking family, partners in this law-evaluation f.i. the Supreme Commanders of the Lawenforcemnet at Buckingham Palace. All who shared and share this values. Before the deadly Allied Air Raid the censored, notified leaflets of the "Weiße Rose" have been dropped by the Royal Airforce, Mr von Moltke had brought them over Scandinavia to the helpers in the United Kingdom, but the (not opposition/justice respecting, helping) people prooved to be inable to free themselves from Hitler and injustice at that time, after that destruction, aggression, crime and "lawhumiliation" (Copyright von Moltke, 1943 -  no trial till 2009, extrem)."Please revise before re-adding. -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 19:35, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing confusing text

message: Does anyone know the name of the fictional story about the White Rose? Not a documentary.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.33.155 (talk) 03:27, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you mean "film adaptation" there was a German movie by the name of "Die Weisse Rose" that came out in the early 80s.  I believe it was based on the book of the same name written by the Scholls' older sister, Inge.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danwaggoner (talk • contribs) 19:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Film name? 

message: I find it odd that the author of the article nowhere cites the Scholls' siter, Inge as a source.  She wrote a very insightful book (1970) about her siblings in which the family's life and religious background is given in detail.  I also find it odd the the faith of the students is so downplayed, when many of them were devout Christians.  Danwaggoner (talk) 20:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Die Weisse Rose" (The White Rose) by Inge Scholl 

message: Someone placed a link to an article "Three Things about Islam" (http://newstime.co.nz/three-things-about-islam.html )that may have been written by a group called "The White Roses". That group appears to have no connection with the subject of this Wikipedia entry, and the linked article is unrelated. I removed the link.  Jrdeardorff (talk) 15:53, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed "Three Things about Islam" from External Links 

message: Could someone with more Wiki-skills than me kindly add that this eight-minute work was composed in 1964-65?  
http://www.analogartsensemble.net/2007/12/hans-werner-henze-in-memoriam-die.html Bhasi23 (talk) 19:53, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hans Werner Henze's 'In Memoriam: Die Weisse Rose' 

message: It is easy for articles on Nazi Germany to be influenced by prejudice.  So we must be very conscious not to include POV references. The statement that "Gisela Schertling — who had betrayed most of the friends, even fringe members like Gerhard Feuerle— redeemed herself" is clearly one.  This should be changed to a more neutral explanation.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 20:46, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: It is unclear what is meant by membership in the Hitler Youth was compulsory .. "many" refused to join 
"Many"?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.7.85 (talk) 00:57, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Some – actually, very few – refused - at their personal disadvantage, see Otl Aicher. --HajjiBaba (talk) 18:32, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Hitler Youth

message: Someone has added two Harry Potter references to Members and Actions section which need reverting ... 46.115.125.76 (talk) 17:56, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for spotting that, it's fixed now. Feel free to do it yourself next time, see Help:Reverting. Regards, HaeB (talk) 04:40, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: The content of the article is essentially true, but I think that parts of it may be somewhat difficult to understand for readers who are not familiar with German history. This holds especially true for the intellectual background of the White Rose members, eg, the role of the Youth Movement, the re-awakening of Catholicism within parts of the German intellectual élites etc. I've started a re-edit; some sections may seem redundant for now. I kindly ask for some patience, and, as always, do welcome any comments. --HajjiBaba (talk) 16:51, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-edit 

message: I was unable to verify the following claims, so I'm saving the sections here, verification pending:
:Huber had counted on the good services of his friend, attorney Justizrat Roder, a high-ranking Nazi. Roder had not bothered to visit Huber before the trial and had not read Huber's leaflet. Another attorney had carried out all the pre-trial paperwork. When Roder realized how damning the evidence was against Huber, he resigned. The junior attorney took over.
:Grimminger initially was to receive the death sentence for funding their operations, but escaped with a sentence of ten years in a penitentiary.
--HajjiBaba (talk) 15:40, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference needed 

message: I think this was a case for the more "ordinary" Staatspolizei, or Stapo or Kripo (Detectives). They were Nazi also. And not a case for the secret police (Gestapo = Geheime Staatspolizei). So does the German film Sophie Scholl – The Final Days imply anyways. And the police officer Kriminalobersekretär (Detective Superintendent ?) Robert Mohr, who led the inquests, really tried to save Sophie Scholl's life, within his possible limits. But she didn't take the offered help. (In that film) Of greater importance for this article however, I suspect "Gestapo" in this case, has been written by pure assumption or habit. Or do we have a reliable source for Gestapo ? Boeing720 (talk) 14:09, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The "White Rose" activities were taken very seriously by the Nazi authorities, and considered as "staatsfeindliche Bestrebungen" (subversive activities) already in Summer 1942, when the Gestapo installed a special investigation command. The Gestapo activities subsided by the end of 1942, but resumed again in January 1943, when Richard Harder was commissioned to set up a perpetrator profile based on the pamphlets. It is true that Robert Mohr offered Sophie Scholl some potential excuses which might have saved her from the death penalty. But, as known from the original questioning protocols, she refused to betray her brother and friends. The information in the article, with regard to the issues mentioned here, is correct.--HajjiBaba (talk) 17:54, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gestapo involved ? 

message: Seems odd that the Scholls are not hotlinked, and their photos don't appear, though they are of course the most famous members of the group. 150.243.14.6 (talk) 21:42, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a very simple reason for the absence of photos: Currently, there is no photo of Hans or Sophie Scholl available in Commons (only an artistic representation on a 1961 GDR stamp, see image). Actually, their names are hotlinked here. It is generally considered unnecessary to introduce multiple hotlinks of the same term within an article.--HajjiBaba (talk) 17:38, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scholl 

message: The New York Times published an interesting shorter article on February 21, 2018, to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the White Rose defendants' execution. I did not link on the main page as caution was requested about adding more links, but I thought those who might be interested in the topic would find the article of interest. 72.78.186.52 (talk) 18:52, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  February 21, 2018, article in the New York Times -- "Remembering the White Rose" 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: It should be noticed, that VGH wasn't the correct court for the soldiers involved, Scholl, Schmorell, Graf and Probst. Their being trialed on VGH was tinkered by quite diffuse measures, not quite clear to this day. They were not even expelled from Wehrmacht, proper. Actually appropriate for them would have been Reichskriegsgericht. --129.187.244.19 (talk) 08:55, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That's only partly correct. "... the soldiers discharged from the Wehrmacht so that the trial can be held by the “People’s Court” (‘Volksgerichtshof’) ..."  "Bormann habe alle Zuständigkeiten missachtet, als er Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Keitel anwies, die Studenten aus der Wehrmacht zu entlassen. Der Volksgerichtshof sollte „schnellstens“ verhandeln."  — Chrisahn (talk) 12:22, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Bormann was not entitled to order that. The process of "discharging" them from the military was not correct and it remains in detail unclear how their putting before VGH was manipulated (see: Manfred Messerschmidt "Die Wehrmachtjustiz 1933-1945", p. 114-116, Paderborn 2008 (2nd Ed.). --213.172.123.242 (talk) 07:29, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  " Volksgerichtshof " trial against soldiers ? 

message: In recent years, during the Covid-19 epidemic, the name of the White Rose movement has been assumed and hijacked by an anti-mask/far-right movement who disseminate their ideas via sticker campaigns (t.me/jointhewhiterose). I've noticed that an example of one of these stickers has been used as an inline image on this article (towards the bottom). For now, I'm assuming that this was an honest mistake rather than a bad-faith attempt to link the original White Rose with the new, very different organisation. I've added more text to the image explaining the unrelatedness, and may add some brief information to the end of the article (on the assumption that briefly explaining the deception is better than simply removing it only to have it restored). - Dann Chinn (talk) 10:18, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hijacking of White Rose name by anti-masking/far right groups 

message: In the Further Reading section, these links are broken.
==== The White Rose Leaflets ====
* Leaflet I  (Text / Original as PDF)
* Leaflet II  (Text / Original as PDF)
* Leaflet III  (Text / Original as PDF)
* Leaflet IV  (Text / Original as PDF)
* Leaflet V  (Text / Original as PDF)
* Leaflet VI  (Text / Original as PDF)
Maxdrohde (talk) 02:09, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links to primary sources broken 

message: * Leaflet I  (Text / Original as PDF)
* Leaflet II  (Text / Original as PDF)
* Leaflet III  (Text / Original as PDF)
* Leaflet IV  (Text / Original as PDF)
* Leaflet V  (Text / Original as PDF)
* Leaflet VI  (Text / Original as PDF)
Maxdrohde (talk) 02:09, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  The White Rose Leaflets