Talk:Pan-European identity

message: Europimp has begun a very interesting article here about nascent Europatriotism.  I've gone through and smoothed out some issues with typos, style, grammar, and wikification, but there are still some parts of this article that seem to have some NPOV problems.  I haven't done much modification to content; would like to see some discussion of it in the talk page if possible.  :: Salvo (talk) 06:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some NPOV? This entire article is POV, definitely in support of EU federalism or whatnot.  As much as I am in favor of the EU, this article is horrible and possibly original research. Note: I added an NPOV tag. - Rudykog 13:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not original research, much is based upon work by various philosophers, magaines and news sources. See for example "Europa, Europa - The mixed-up debate over the new European patriotism" by Jefferson Chase, BBC's news on the item of "Do patriotism and Europe mix?", Café babel - European current affairs magazine on the "Europatriot Tribe", and more importantly by works of the philosophers Jürgen Habermas and Jacques Derrida, among which "Europa, Europa" and "Philosophy in a Time of Terror" and a critique on that "The mixed-up debate over the new European patriotism" by Jefferson Chase.Kind of typical that a Texan is disputing the validity of something like "europatriotism". I am joking a little here ofcourse, no offense. I do agree that the article is pretty much not done, and partly this is because the notion of "europatriotism" is not entirely astablished.  But it is an emerging phenomena and I think it definately deserves a place on Wikipedia. The phenomena has never been specifically documented online, nor are most articles (they were published in influencial newspapers in Gemany and France though. The term itself is being used in online articles though, once again another reason to add it to Wikipedia. Claiming original research is not very helpful: the phenomena exists, and adding useful info to the article helps more than disputing it. Also, the NPOV is a bit of a paradox here. Since patriotism by itself is kind of not very NPOV by nature. (And I do know, since I live in the US of A eventhoug I am European) I think the article is ok, but if you feel the article is written in a style too much in favor of the EU, feel free to restyle it, neutralize it. The core of the subject "europatriotism" is however about something very not neutral. It's Europatriotic Europimp 00:00, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good start.. 

message: Eventhoug anti-americanism does strengthen europatriotism, I don't think that anti-americanism is part of the definition of europatriotism. Probably might want to remove that from the definition and move it into another section. Europimp 04:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Europatriotism is not anti-americanism 

message: Why was "European Miracle" added to the "See Also" section?
The term does not link to an existing Wikipedia page. Europimp 04:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  European Miracle? 

message: It is a relevant entry but in its current form it is more of a debate article arguing for the European cause than an entry in an encyclopeadia. Questions that remain unanswered include: How the concept relate to similar entries like Pro-European, Europeanist, Europhile, Eurooptimism?  What makes it different?  What IS Europatriotism, rather than why it should be?
--Drdan 11:45, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe it would be a good idea to combine some of the above entries into one?  I have not been able to find reasons to keep them separate. --Drdan 11:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Valid questions. I think the answer lies in the fact that Europatriotism is not neccesarily economic, political or whatsoever. It's a culural phenomena. It does not deel with how the EU should be, operate, or whatsoever. It deals with the effect that the existence of the European Union delivers; it emerges from euro-culture, resulting in the so much desired emotional connection which then again is seen as a requirement for a healthy democracy.  Europimp 02:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A debate article? 

message: * http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=1589971&C=europe
* http://euobserver.com/9/20998
Noone should add this to the article yet, seeing as it's not decided; but it should be watched, and is definitely interesting to those of us who want a united Europe. Joffeloff 10:41, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  European Coast Guard, border police, etc 

message: I removed much speculative content from this article - which is more of a personal essay, than an encyclopedia article. I also asked for sources for several dubious assertions. Almost everything in the article derived from wishful thinking, and although an article on recent pan-European identity is a good idea, it must stick to reality. The identity is extremely vague, and not a form of 'patriotism'. A new title is needed.Paul111 17:35, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You have removed many sections, which are important and accurate. For example: the part about a common historical background. The Ryder Cup, which ist the only tournament in the world (!) where there is only one single European team. Also, things like "widely regarded as kitsch" are non-NPOV. 129.206.196.96 07:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The wish is father to the patriotism 

message: I deleted most of this:
:Another major source of unity expressed through patriotism is the existence of a national military. This is especially true for the United States, but the first glimpses of a pan-European army are clear in the form of EUFOR, which recently celebrated its first anniversary. Although for there to be a "national military" there would have to be a "nation" of Europe for a military to be national of - there does not seem to be any prospect of forging a nation state encompassing the whole of Europe, although some would like to see the EU evolve into a nation, which would provide a large nation within Europe although still not encompassing all of Europe by any means.
This is typical of the speculative private opinions which abound in this article, so here are the objections:
* the role of the military in patriotism is disputed
* a future 'pan-European army' is just speculation, and totally unacceptable to eurosceptics, and for several member states
*EUFOR is explicitly not a European Army.
*'nation of Europe' is a disputed phrase associated with the New Right
* who is it, that wants to see the "EU evolve into a nation"?
*why is a "large nation within Europe " necessary, and why should this article say so?
Paul111 10:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Paul111: Where are you talking about? I personally am I Europatriot. Hence it exists. Pleas eput the original title back. Which anti-euro lobby group is paying you? 212.83.71.69 17:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fictitious 'European Army' - not so fictitious at all 

message: The test implied that this paper  advocated 'Europatriotism'. In fact it does not use the term and says explicitly: "There is certainly a tradition of assumed European cultural superiority, but not a nationalism that associates this with Europe as a single political entity."Paul111 11:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading use of source for Europatriotism 

message: What exactly do David Beckham, Robbie Williams, Daft Punk and Aqua contribute to patriotic identification with Europe? Or to any identification with Europe?Paul111 11:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's very much original research. Unless you can find compelling and non-trivial mentions of David Beckham as a European icon.--Nydas 18:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  European loyalty to David Beckham? 

message: Maybe it's just me, but I read the first sentence:
Despite its economic significance and its impact on the lives of its 450 million inhabitants, the European Union attracts no sense of identification comparable to that with nation-states.
So nobody in the whole of the EU thinks of themselves as European? Uh huh. You have a cite for that? Give me a cite, and make it a good one, giving what proportion of the EU think of themselves that way, and then rewrite it to match, otherwise it's gone, in accordance with wiki policy.WolfKeeper 17:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Most people don't, and wishful thinking won't change that. Source added.Paul111 18:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I dislike that the opening of the article starts with a negative attitude. 'despite ...' is has a negative connotation, let's change this article's title back to 'Europatriotism' and restore patriotism-related sections. This article is not supposed to be about 'Pan-European Identity'.11:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  First sentence 

message: The sensible name-change aside, a horde of questionable edits have appeared, rendering this article a silly POV screed. Let's look at the introduction, which categorically fails as an introduction. 
"Despite its economic significance and its impact on the lives of its 450 million inhabitants, the European Union attracts no sense of identification comparable to that with nation-states. Early expectations that people would "become European" and gradually abandon their national identity, have not materialised. On the contrary, a specific hostility to the European Union developed: euroscepticism. Although many in Europe believe that there is a European culture, that has no political effect, and co-exists with national loyalties and national patriotism. There is no comparable 'europatriotism' directed towards the EU, much less the entire continent. The European Union has made some attempts to increase identification with 'Europe' (meaning the EU itself), and has introduced some European symbols. The promotion of this identification is now low-key, partly for fear of eurosceptic reactions."
Problems:
* The comparison with national identities simply does not belong in the first sentence. No starting sentence in an article should begin with 'Despite'.
* What early expectations? From who? When? Why is it assumed that identity is zero-sum game?
* 'Many' believe = weasel words. Who? How many?
* 'No political effect' = Original research
* Low-key approach - sources?
More generally, despite being named 'Pan-European Identity' and not 'Pan-EU Identity' the article pours an unencyclopedic amount of scorn on various Pan-European projects which are not related to the EU.--Nydas 17:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The comparison with national identities is indeed an inheritance from the previous article, and its use of 'patriotism'. However national identity is the relevant comparison for the EU, not for instance the degree of support for pan-Africanism. The Eurobarometer surveys are the main source of hard data on this issue. The early expectation are those of the late 1940s and 1950s, which could have a better source than Churchill, but they did exist. As for 'low-key', the article should point out that the EU does not push its identity in the way that, for instance, the Turkish state does.Paul111 18:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The opening sentence should contain a neutral description of the topic, not a comparison. Imagine if the article on Velvet Revolver started with 'Despite selling many records, they have not sold nearly as many as Guns N' Roses.' It's totally unencyclopedic.--Nydas 18:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

text: In this case, a comparison at the start of the article is relevant, because there is nothing at European level comparable to national identity. Simply stating what an identity is, is pointless.Paul111 18:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No it's not, it's absolutely normal. How many other articles begin in this way?--Nydas 18:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to me that Paul111 simply dislikes to see a list of succesful Euyropean project? Your reasoning does not make sense, you destroyed valuable information. 23:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Numerous questionable edits 

message: As mentionned above, I propose to delete these commercial projects, unless there is some material, either on their impact on European identity, or showing that they are intended by politicians to have that kind of effect. The GPS system does seem to have political intent, but a source would be useful.Paul111 18:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Paul111 WHat are you talking about 'politics', tyhis article was about patriotism, which is a people's emotional expression. Not a political or commercial project. However, patriotism gets influenced byprojects suchs as there, and therefor they were listed. Now that you destroyed this article by renaming it, it doesn make sense anymore. Pretty clever but its beyond the scope of what this article used to be about. By changing the core of the artcile, obviously, some stuff doesn;t make sense anymore. Clever move. Which lobby group is paying you to do this? 11:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Airbus and Eurofighter

message: I'd like to criticise Paul111. It's true that this article was almost like an essay to promote European patriotism, and he was right in pointing that out. But now he has made the article into the exact opposite - a very negative description of "pan-European identity". The beginning of the article is very annoying and against the NPOV principle. Just as the "Euroscepticism" article illustrates what people don't like about Europe and the EU, this article should illustrate positive examples and explain the concept of "Pan-European identity", not try to kill that concept! Dumbledore 18:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, I do feel patriotic about Europe, and I'm not the only one. I consider myself a European citizen. Dumbledore 18:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I feel Europatriotic too, and, I am one of the  That makes at least 3 of us amoing the 456,953,258 EU citizens. Coderman
The positive position (i.e. anti-Eurosceptic) belongs in Pan-Europeanism or Europhile - there are several others with similar content and they could usefully be merged. This article should be about how strong the identity is, about the attempts to promote it, about the historical comparison with the strength of national identity in Europe. It should also describe the often-quoted 'common historical identity' of Europe, which does not seem to be covered in any other article.Paul111 18:44, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article used the word 'negative' 0 times before Paul111 started to mutiliate the article. The word 'negative' is used 6 times now. I think we should restore the article and have Paul11 edit a 'Anti-Europe' article. I'm sure the lobbygroup Paul111 works for would love that. 22:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too negative 

message: Is identity zero-sum, as Nydas questions above? The research for Eurobarometer, and subsequent analysis of the data (see the references), indicates that national and European identity tend to be seen as mutually exclusive, but that there are national differences in this. In general it seems, that the more positive the attitude to the EU, the more likely that the respondent will accept 'European identity' as complementary to the national identity.Paul111 18:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Identity a zero-sum? 

message: What's the problem with kitsch? Kitsch defines a large part of American culture, I'm sorry to say - yet a lot of American culture is -despite being quite kitsch- embrased worldwide. Why was it removed from the article? Coderman 00:41, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eurovision Song Festival Kitsch? 

message: I started the article out to describe emegring 'Europatriotism'. The article started out a bit well// 'patriotic' but has been neutralized by many others ove rthe last few months. Now that Paul111 has completely added a lot of negative connotation and eventually decided to rename the article, I think the very core of the article is touched. This is about Europatriotism, not about anti-euroscepticism. It's time to rename the article back and work on an even better version. Thanks. Europimp 01:20, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not the function of Wikipedia to promote Europatriotism. There is an article on patriotism and there should be, because patriotism is an accepted term for an important phenomenon. On the other hand, 'Europatriotism' is a disputable neologism used mainly in small groups such as the JEF. If it was used as a synonym for 'European identity', then it would be acceptable as an article title, but it is not widely used in this way. Most 'Europeans' think of themselves as belonging to a nation-state, and have no 'patriotic' attachment to Europe. That is the reality, and that is why the article should not suggest a factually existing and widespread 'Europatriotism'.Paul111 10:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul the artcle described 'emerging' Europatriotism. It's not widespread, but it's there - you seem to ignore this? 212.83.71.69 11:55, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article renamed back to it's original title 

message: I clarified the term PAN- European in the intro, which now starts with a dull definition / disambiguation, as requested above. I added more on the 'Christian identity of Europe' debate, and the consequences for Turkish accession to the EU. Sport has a subsection, and the laundry list of footballers is replaced with the UEFA competitions, which are more relevant for this article. Link to 'Great Seal of the European Union' is deleted, it is a one-website proposal: no author is named at the website, and no evidence that it was submitted to the European Commission.Paul111 10:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul great work. Now the article has nothing to do with Europatriotism anymore. 212.83.71.69 01:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarified and expanded 

message: The article was an attempt to write about the emerging phenomena of 'Europatriotism'. Instead of having an article on patriotism, symbols, etc.. we now have a (pretty bad) antropological article on 'Pan European Identity'. I think it's time to rstore the article back to where it was about: Europatriotism Note that Paul111, the onbe that decided to change the title, has not reacted to complaints on the topic title change. The only response was the chapter 'personal attach'. No comments on patriotic feelings such as Europeans being the ones with worlds largest economy, competing with US and building better fighter jets.212.83.71.69 01:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This unsigned comment is from user Europimp, who first created the 'Europatriotism' article. The question is: whose patriotic feelings are these? Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia, not a community site like MySpace. If 450 million EU inhabitants felt the same way about Europe, as US-Americans feel about the USA, that would be world-shaking news. But they don't. How many people do, and where is the evidence that they do?Paul111 09:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well frist of all, let's hope EU citizens never feel the same way about the EU as US Americans feel about the US.
The point of the article was to describe history's first form of a pan-national patriotism. This is uncomparable to the way Americans express their nation state patriotism, as they do this the same way most European nation states did a centuries ago. As others on this page argues they do feel euro-patriotic; so it does exist. The world-shaking news is that this is, as said before, we've never seen such a kind of patriotism before. That was the reason to start a wikipedia article, not to describe Pan-European identity. Paul111 tweaked, modified and corrupted the core of the article, Im sorry to say but this is the only way I can see it Coderman 22:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Ony two people have identified themselves as 'euro-patriots' here. Pan-nationalism is not a new phenomenon, neither is pan-Europeanism. It would be notable if large numbers of EU inhabitants adopted political pan-Europeanism. So where is the evidence that they do? Wikipedia has criteria of notability, which make it different from MySpace, and it is not a crystal ball. So how does Europatriotism meet those criteria?Paul111 10:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul11: pan-Europeanism is, AFAIK, a new phenomena. I haven't seen much on the subject before, I think it's new. Could you prove otherwise please? If not, it takes away any ground of the renaming of the article. The point was to describe the new, emerging phenomena of Europatriotism. Coderman 18:03, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I am aware of the International Paneuropean Union however, I must be one of the few. This organisation is just a serious as Texan seperatists. Sorry, I still think Europatriotism as it was originally described bhy this article is emerging and new, it sjust too bad Paul111 destroyed the article  Coderman 12:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

text: So far, people reacted here on the talk page. Nobody claimed the opposite. I therefor still think the article was taken off topi cby renaming it. Coderman 17:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Wikipedia criteria of notability and accuracy are not rescinded by lack of comments on a talk page. There is simply no case for an article on 'Europatriotism', if no evidence can be provided that it is anything other than a non-notable neologism.Paul111 10:16, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Off-topic 

message: Coming to this new, it reads to me as balanced and neutral (though, as I am pro-European, perhaps that makes it biased!).  I definitely support the change of title - "Europatriotism" was quite excessive, too subjective, not verifiable, vandal bait.  Reading the above comments and the edits that have been made, it seems to me that the article has already been cleaned up.  So I propose that we delete the NPOV and CLEANUP tags and according I vote 
*Delete the NPOV tag --Red King 21:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Supported--Boson 22:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

text: do it.WolfKeeper 23:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Supported--Boson 22:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

text: do it.WolfKeeper 23:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is NPOV tag still merited? 

message: Although I supported the removal of the NPOV and Cleanup flags, I was a little concerned about the last paragraph of the introduction: 
:Pan-European identity generally competes with national identity. 1999 Eurobarometer surveys show that only 6% in the EU combine feeling European with their national identity, with variations between the member states. [3] The European Union has made some attempts to increase identification with 'Europe' (meaning the EU itself), and has introduced some European symbols, but this has not been as intensive as the promotion of national identity in the nation-states.
I would tend to make this a separate section. Also I don't think the last sentence is verifiable, and I would tend to replace it.  
1999 seems a little old; so I would replace this with the data on "national pride" (P. 26) and "European pride" (P. 49) as well as feelings of European citizenship (P.42) from the last Eurobarometer (No. 64 for 2005, published June 2006). 
The correlation between national pride and European pride might be interesting. 
It might also be interesting to copy some of the tables and/or graphs, but I am not sure of the copyright position. AFAICT they would be subject to the EU (EC) copyright notice, which states "Reproduction is authorised, provided the source is acknowledged. . ." but, of course, that is not GFDL or public domain. 
The document probably has lots more interesting stuff.  
--Boson 23:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the EU ever made schoolchildren salute the European flag every morning while singing the 'Ode to Joy", there is no comparison between the meagre efforts to promote an 'EU' identity, and the things nation-states have done in that respect.Paul111 09:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: AFAIK the European anthem doesn't have words; so I doubt they would have children singing anything. I don't know of any European nation state that makes children salute the national flag and sing the national anthem. If any serious German politician suggested such a thing it would probably be political suicide, and it would probably just be laughed at in Britain.  Indeed, I imagine it would be contrary to Section 21 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights, not to mention all sorts of free speech rights. My main problem with the statement is that I don't see any way of verifying that the nation states do more to promote national identity that the EU does. Apart from that I'm not at all sure it's true. I suppose in Britain you have bath towels and toilet paper printed with the Union Flag, but I don't think that counts as official promotion. So it looks to me like non-verifiable POV. --Boson 20:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I deleted the "competes with" as that is "leading the witness stuff". Readers can draw their own conclusions from the Eurobarometer citation without needing to be told what (someone thinks) it means.  But yes it could do with being replaced with a more recent survey. --Red King 20:12, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New section: European identity vs. national identity? 

message: I was thinking there should perhaps be more discussion of the geographical "object" of pan-European identity (EU, whole of Europe, including Russia, Turkey, etc.?). In that context there should perhaps also be more mention of the Council of Europe, the EEA etc. Since there are other articles concerned with European integration, I wasn't sure what really belonged here. I would tend not to include Schengen, though there should perhaps be a general discussion of various attributes of "identity" (e.g. "identity" implies thinking of Europe as a unit, which may imply free movement within a single territorial entity). What about all the different types of "identity" (territorial, political, cultural, . . .). What is the difference between European identity, European consciousness, etc.? Questions of "Europe des nations", subsidiarity, federalism etc. might also be relevant. There is also the question of what "European-ness" imples: can "European culture" be equated with "western civilization" etc. I was also wondering about historical attempts at European integration, possibly based on a common identity (Charlemagne, Napoleon, Hitler?). What about the effects of EU enlargement? Should we include a discussion of the Christian heritage, Islam in Europe, etc.). Any ideas about what should be included here and what belongs elsewhere? --Boson 21:01, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional topics; scope of article? 

message: Both of these are considered to be negative elements for the purposes of defining European identity, as indicated by the fact that they are often conveniently forgotten when listing Europe's civilisational heritage. When they are listed, it is in an apologetic tone, and it is that attitude which is relevant for this paragraph.Paul111 10:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  World wars and colonialism 

message: * --Red King 20:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: European identity is indeed in common use, but it means something different to what is covered by most of this article. As generally used, it refers to the historical identity of Europe, with the well-known list of Greece, Rome, Charlemagne, Renaissance, Enlightenment. It is also used for the alleged 'European values' of democracy, human rights, a free press, and so on. There is a mass of material available on this issue, which was prominent in the debate on the European Constitution. Wikipedia should have a major article on this issue, certainly. But not with Robbie Williams! And not with Airbus either. Even if they were official EU mascots, that is still not the same thing as the constitutive identity of Europe. I suggest the 'constitutive identity of Europe' gets its own article, perhaps under that name. This one could be re-named as 'identification with Europe' or similar, to cover the Eurobarometer surveys, the degree of Euroscepticism / pro-integration attitudes, and the official EU promotion of identity, and a brief reference to the EUsymbols, which have a separate article. In the process, Robbie Williams and Airbus can go, although the Eurovision contest could stay, as the only 'grassroots' pan-European culture phenomenon.Paul111 21:20, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: If this is to stay in the article, it needs a source indicating that it contributes in some way, to people's sense of being European. The Airbus project might have some material on that, but I doubt if Eurofighter does.Paul111 21:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What about the name itself? 'Euro'-fighter? 14:05, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eurofighter 

message: Reference to Article 301 was deleted, I don't know exactly why, but it seems to have something to do with Greek-Turkish conflicts. The Article, which certainly does exist and is used, is here only to show that the EU does not have anything like it. (Think of what The Sun would say, if it the EU made it a crime to 'insult European identity'). Someone asked for evidence, that nation-states push their national identity much harder than the EU pushes European identity, and this is a good example. Deleting it in connection with ongoing disputes at other articles is not appropriate.Paul111 10:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh? U came up with all these when u saw that i am Greek? my removal had nothing to do with Greek-Turkish conflicts and nothing with any ongoing disputes at other articles! the sentence was like that: However these activities are not comparable to the intense promotion and protection of national identity and honour in some nation-states, for instance Article 301 of the Turkish penal code,.... May objections to that are simple: 1. Turkey is not an EU nation-state, and so u simply can't say some nation-states, for instance...Turkish penal code, 2. promotion and protection of national identity and honour is not exactly what Article 301 of the turkish penal code is about. it is about an extended variety of topics related to the Republic of Turkey, Turkish people, Ottoman Empire, "Turkishness", etc etc. Even the link provided talks about the case of the nobelist Pamuk; note that he was dragged on a trial for talking about the Armenian Genocide, id est something that happened prior to the declaration of the 'Republic of Turkey', contradicting what u added above ...which makes insults to the Republic a crime. and, btw, your new rewording the EU has nothing comparable to Article 301 of the Turkish penal code, has no base... the EU can't nor has the will to have something like that (see Freedom of expression and related articles). do find a better example please... maybe something like "penalties for the destruction of national symbols in almost all EU states" or something relevant. Hectorian 11:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Nothing further to say but that "It is not an example of what nation states do to people who offend their sense of national honour"! this is an extreme example, highly criticised by all (but the turkish gov.) and incompatible with EU, as everyone in the union says. Regardless my own ethnic background and my editting frequency in Greek related topics, this is the opinion all Europeans share. so, as a European, i find the comparison with article 301 offending... Hectorian 11:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article 301 of the Turkish penal code 

message: I removed the contentious text entirely, the essential information is that the EU has some promotional activities. As an aside, the Netherlands now does oblige people to sing the national anthem in front of the national flag, at least if they want to become naturalised citizens. In Amsterdam, they are also obliged to accept a blue-and-white Delftware potato, as a symbol of their new allegiance. No potato, no passport. What would The Sun say, if the EU did that?Paul111 12:35, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Paul111 I am a Dutch citizen of Amsterdam. What you're claiming, and despite The Sun (rubbish) is reporting this, is simply not true. 62.194.87.163 15:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

text: (:-)) For readers who do not speak Dutch and/or do not share Paul111's sense of humour, one should perhaps point out that the press article linked to actually says that on the "Day of Naturalization" which was celebrated that week, anybody being granted Dutch nationality was given a present of the depicted work of art representing a potato, made by a Chinese artist who has lived in Amsterdam for 12 years. It didn't say if the artist was an EU citizen. --Boson 23:48, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: EU promotion of identity

message: Just for the record: I started this article as 'Europatriotism'. Paul111 joined in at some point and started to systematically tweak the article and added a lot of negativity to it. Also he carefully tweaked it in such a way that he found ground to change the article's name from 'Europatriotism' to 'Pan-European identity'. I have suggested to change the title back to the original title. 
(...) And yet Europatriotism exists. A "Eurobarometer" survey for the European Commission last year showed that 63 per cent of Europeans feel "proud" to be Europeans. Britain scored lowest, with 44 per cent.
 (from http://search.ft.com/ftArticle?queryText=%22Padraig+Harrington%22&y=4&javascriptEnabled=true&x=7&id=060915007687)
212.83.71.69 00:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paul111 & the rename of 'Europatriotism' 

message: Why did somebody remove the picture of the huge European flag near the banks of the river Seine in Paris?
This picture has been in the opening since I started the article. I like to restore the picture with the huge European flag. 17:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening picture 

message: I feel a lot of people are using this as a discussion forum. Which is fine so far as it may produce decisions about what to put into the main article.--h i s   s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 18:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I'm interested in this topic, but... 

message: Someone has tagged these two articles for merger, but not followed up as far as I can see.  The Pan-Europeanism aricle is just a stub and could become a section of this.
* I support a merge. --Red King (talk) 20:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As no one has commented either way, I've done the merge. --Red King (talk) 01:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Note: the section was deleted along with other content later in 2008. I'll restore some of it on the page :Category:Pan-Europeanism. – Fayenatic London 08:49, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request to merge with Pan-Europeanism (that into this) 

message: why not mention that many europeans from all over europe are united in anti-americanism?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnny-bollock-rotten (talk • contribs) 13:05, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  anti-americansim 

message: See Europeanism. They seem to overlap. Comments? YeshuaDavid (talk) 20:37, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal with Europeanism 

message: Are these concepts not functionally identical? HMS Vanguard (talk) 18:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not quite - this article is about (as the title suggests) European identity - the way in which some people feel themselves to be 'European' instead of, or as well as, another nationality. Pan-European nationalism is about the political idea of uniting Europe as a single state, which is far less widespread; you can be a 'Europeanist' without being a 'Pan-Europeanist' in that sense, and indeed most aren't. Robofish (talk) 21:28, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge with [[Pan-European nationalism]]

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It is questionable how far this is even remotely related to the article topic. 
But fwiiw, the Ryder Cup was a golf tournament between UK and US teams until 1979, when a "Team Europe" participated for the first time. 
The European flag was first used in the logo in 1991 (picture of 1989 version). I.e. the flag was used for convenience to represent "Europe" years before it became politically charged as the emblem of the European Union (the EU was only even established two years later). 
So the use of the flag in the Ryder Cup would be irrelevant, if it were not for its mention  in the context of sports and nationalism in Bairner (2001). Apparently, by the end of the 1990s, use of the "Flag of the European Union" had become politically charged and people no longer accepted its use as representing simply "Europe" as a continent. So I guess the entire thing is relevant inasmuch as it illustrates the absence of a "pan-European identity" in 2001. --dab (𒁳) 14:32, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Ryder Cup

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: Hi, I'm :it:User:Silvia bruni1,  librarian at the University of Florence (Social science library). We organised a Wikipedia course. Erasmus students improved some Wikipedia article about the European Union.  Pfcasalongavilde worked on this article. --Silvia bruni1 (talk) 10:55, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improved article 

message: Europeanism seems to discuss two theories of values, which would better be discussed in the context of the broader topic; specifically, in the section here on values. Klbrain (talk) 21:42, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 

message: Shouldn't it be moved to European identity? Seem to be dominating name. There is no statistcs about how many people identifies themselves as Europeans in European Union, Europe and all over the world? We have Yugoslavs in Serbia. Eurohunter (talk) 11:56, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  European identity and statistics 

message: The opening paragraph states that Kalergi viewed Paneuropa as being "in explicit opposition to... Great Britain and the United States" and cites the exclusion of the British Isles as proof of this. This is a horribly inaccurate conclusion (that Kalergi wanted Paneuropa to oppose GB/US) drawn from a true claim (that the Isles were not part of Paneuropa). The citation does not support it either. Having read Kalergi's Paneuropa and a host of secondary readings on Kalergi, I wish to present his actual view and have it included instead.
Kalergi argued that Paneuropa would be just one of three European states who would collaborate each other in pursuit of the "European cultural task". He was a support of European colonialism and valued the British Empire's contributions to global imperialism. He excluded the British Empire from Paneuropa not because he was opposed to Britain, but because the Empire was already so large that he believed integrating it with the rest of Europe would not make sense. Instead, Britain formed its own political space. However, Kalergi asserted that Britain's rightful place would be within Paneuropa should she lose her empire. Horarum (talk) 14:26, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kalergi and Britain