Talk:Al-Khwarizmi/Archive 1

message: He was Persian.  Who wrote he was Arab?  When did Arabs ever live in Khorasan?  This is and always has been Iranian.  Just because he did works in the Arabic language did not make him Arab. (Contribution from 154.20.105.198 07:26, 2 July 2005)
:Logged-in Wikipedians are working to retain this information, in the face of anonymous reverting from User:67.42.116.33. --Wetman 2 July 2005 18:42 (UTC)
And for the same reason his name should be transcribed according to his real name, that is of course Persian and not Arabic, both in the title and wherever it is refered to him in the article (though Arabic alternative is ok to be given). So it should be Kharazmi, though his books were written in Arabic (Arabic was the official language of science at his time) and so the Westerners became familiar with him via Arabic to English translation, probably, so the Arabic name Al-Khwarizmi has entered English. And I think that Al-Khwarizmi should be redirected to Kharazmi, as the ttle of the main article! Nimak 11 September 2005 02:05
:For support for this argument see  69.157.0.3 04:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi guys.. I am not sure why you think he is Persian. As his name suggested, he was from Kharezm (now called Khive or Urgench) in Uzbekistan around the delta of Amu Derya river. He has Turkish origin... Resid Gulerdem 06:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Khwarizmi was NOT Arab

message: He supervised the work of 70 geographers to create the first map of the known world. I don't think so. First surviving? First Muslim? First what? Wetman 00:51, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally I have no knowledge of his contributions to the field of cartography, but assuming what the article mentions in that regard is correct, it would not be at all surprising if that was the first map of the then "known world", considering he lived in the 8th-9th century.  Why is it surpsing for you?     --K1 01:22, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  It surprises me because it doesn't appear to make sense.  "Known world" is not an absolute entity.  Known to whom?   Maybe al-Khwarizmi supervised construction of a map of the world that was known to his culture, but it certainly wasn't a map of the whole world, and it's certainly true that other cultures had made earlier maps of the parts of the world that they knew about.  This would include very limited maps made by cultures for whom the "known world" was very small.   So unless there's something I'm missing or I don't understand, it's very difficult to believe that the claim is true, as written. -- Dominus 16:47, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

text: I agree that the claim that he created the "first map of the world" is bogus.  I am going to change that.  In fact, I am not even sure that he was ever involved in a cartographical project directly, although I do know that he wrote a scientific gerographical book in which he defined the world in terms of lattitudes and longitudes (title of the book: Thorat-al-Ardh or Face of the Earth).  I will try to rewrite this article one of these days, I think this article can be improved quite a bit.     --K1 01:45, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cartography 

message: Content from page redirected here: I may try to merge this.
Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Musa Al-Khwarizmi was born around the year 780 in Baghdad, which is now in Irak and he died around the year 850. We do not know very much about his life, so many guesses have been made based on very little evidence.
  Probably, Harun al-Rashid was the fifth Caliph of the Abbasid dinasty when Al-Khwarizmi was born. His court was in the capital, Baghdad, and he brought different intellectual disciplines to the Arabic world. He had two sons, al-Amin and al-Mamun. When Harun died, in 809, there was a violent fight between the two brothers.
  Later on, al-Mamun won the war. On the other hand, al-Amin was killed in 813. Al-Mamun became Calìph. He continued bringing different disciplines to his empire and he founded the House of Wisdom, which was an academy. There, Greek philosophical and scientific works were translated. Moreover, he built up a library, which was the biggest library after the one in Alexandria. He also set up some observatories, where Muslim astronomers studied the stars,...
  Al-Khwarizmi was one of the scholars at the House of Wisdom in Baghdad. He and his colleagues translated Greek scientific works and studied algebra, geometry and astronomy. It is certain that Al-Khwarizmi worked under the reign of Al-Mamun because he dedicated two texts to the Caliph. These texts were his treatise on algebra and his treatise on astronomy. This algebra treatise (Hisab al-jabr w'al-muqabala) was the most important of all his works. It is the first book to be written on algebra.
Charles Matthews 15:20, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text for Possible Merging 

message: I removed two adjacent sentences, the second quite recent:
# The word algorithm is a corruption of early English algorisme, which came from Latin algorismus, which in turn came from the name of al-Khowarizmi. 
# Other scholars citing his work in Latin language used the expression "dixit algorismi" ("as said Al-Khowarizmi"), which is believed to have coined the expression. 
Neither of these adds to the article more than does the simple statement
: The words "algorithm" and "algorism" derive ultimately from his name.
The first expands a standard dictionary etymology into a sentence, as if that represented something more encyclopedic.
The second is poorly written, especially in light of its being written to be slammed up against the first, without any visible effort to establish what relationship brings them together.  This is especially unwelcome since the second seems to intend to contradict the first. 
There is, by the way, some doubt about the meaning of the second. 
* Standing alone, i would take it to be a garbled version of something close to 
** When other mathematical scholars, in their own works in Latin, cited his Arabic work, they would precede an assertion with "dixit algorismi", Latin for "(as) Al-Khowarizmi said".  And that's where "algorithm" comes from.
* A colleague, in an edit summarized "rewording to remove ambiguity", rewords, to mistakenly attribute the use of Latin to him (tho we know he wrote in Arabic), apparently in order to permit hinting at some kind of relationship with the first sentence, by making the "Other [mathematical] scholars" into "other etymologists":
** Other scholars cite his work in Latin language where he has used the expression “dixit algorismi” (“as said Al-Khowarizmi”), which is believed to be the precursor to the expression. 
*** I'm sorry to have misunderstood the intended meaning of the previous sentence and to have reworded it into a factually wrong sentence. -- Sundar 09:53, Jul 23, 2004 (UTC)
In either case, however, nothing about etymology is explicated: perhaps "algorismi" is a Latin inflection, to suit that syntactic role, of some other Latin rendering of his name, but it sure looks like just a transliteration.  If  that's what it's getting at, we have not been given the means of guessing it.
It is, however, interesting that -ismus is a noun-forming suffix in Latin, giving rise to the noun-forming suffix -ism in English, and the coincidence may have played a role in determining which words derived from it (two nouns) survived.  (If somone name Melish contributed to English-speaking culture, we might expect an adjective "melish" more than a noun.)
I have moved this text here rather than discarding it, and tried to clarify it, in the hope that it may later be of some use. The etymological events that would be of some interest here concern the modern contrast between "algorithm" (the familiar general term) and "algorism", a now fairly obscure term WP regards as referring to the decimal notation system. But IMO "algorism" is surely connected to the other by the need, in introducing any positional notation, to explicitly state the algorithms that specify how math operations are done on such numbers. (For instance, the carry and borrow steps are part of algorithms -- that few of our elementary-school teachers used the term "algorithm" in describing.)  
At present, we lack the raw material for writing such a discussion: our wretched account of the contents of his work hints not at all at whether he 
* used a term to mean "algorithm" (if he paid no attention to the question of guaranteed finite completion, i'd argue he laid a foundation for the concept, but didn't arrive at it),
* stated any algorithms where a formal proof of computability needs to go beyond "inspection" ("Look, stupid, you've got a finite number of digits N; you multiply them pairwise, with no more than N2/4 pairs, and each pair takes no more than M steps; of course you have to run out of pairs, and any fool can see you're done then!")
* stated any algorithms beyond those of elementary-school arithmetic.
The terminology stinks of him not having felt a need to distinguish between algorism's algorithms and more general algorithms, and when we have a better article, the etymology will be one tool in describing the staged elaboration of the concepts, which is an encyclopedic topic of history of mathematics (and the sociology and psychology of discovery), and of more than etymological interest.
--Jerzy(t) 09:19, 2004 Jul 23 (UTC)
Algorism is the original term. Algorithm was dervided by changing the pronounciation to make the word sound more greek.  The original Latin is Algorismus.  I don't know enough about Latin to be sure about the name of the book cited, but I would think it would be Algorismi. See http://www.thefreedictionary.com/algorism and http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=algorithm&searchmode=none and the OED entry.  (I no longer have access to it, but I remeber there was useful information there.) 
Furthermore, while it is Etmologically true that Algorithm comes from Khwarizmi's name, the modern conception of the word is only tangentialy related to his work, so this may confuse readers. 216.15.124.196 03:41, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: Ok, what's with the image dispute? Personally I find the image of the Soviet stamp to be of much greater quality and detail than the image some user keeps on inserting, claiming the stamp is "Arabized", whatever that means. I find the image the user insists on putting in the article to be of low quality. It looks like a sketch drawing. Also, I have serious doubts about the copyright status of the one you keep on inserting. --Revolución (talk) 23:55, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is copyrighted indeed. It's from the Mac Tutor bio page of Khwarazmi linked at the bottom of the article.--Zereshk 04:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Image dispute

message: I really don't think it's necessary to have the lower-case title template, since most of the other hundreds of articles beginning with Arabic definite-article al- don't have it -- and Arabic script doesn't have a distinction between capitals and lower-case anyway... AnonMoos
: I put it there because when Wikipedia will become case-sensitive Real Soon Now, I will suspect that pages with this template will be renamed automatically. Also sheep-arguments (because the rest doesn't) don't tend to convice me :) Cheers, —Ruud 20:56, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lower-case title warning message necessary?

message: Two things are a big deal to Iranians; one the fact that Zoroaster and the Persian Empire for the first time in history spread the idea of Monotheistic religion, the belief in one God, to humanity, thus single handedly influencing Judaism, Christianity, and Islam--and the second is Khwarizmi and his discovery of Algorithm that single handedly allowed science to progress to what it is today. The reason why Persians state that most of Islamic scientists were Persians is because almost 90 percent of that era’s scientists like Razes who discovered alcohol, `The Father of Modern Medicine` Avicenna who by the way also came from the ancient Persian province of Khwarizm, poets like Hafez, Sa`adi, Rumi who created Sufism, and architects like the Persian Jew Mashallah, who built the city of Baghdad, etc., were all Persians.  By the way, many scientists at the time traveled to Baghdad, a city built by Persians, located in the land previously known as Babylon, which is where Persians originally came from, and the place where the capital of the first three Persian Empires were, namely Ctesiphon in Babylon.  However, centuries later, when Arabs defeated the last great Persian Empire, the  Sassanid dynasty, and conquered Persia, this land was occupied by Arabs, and today it is known as Iraq, an Arab country.  As far as the literature goes, there is physical proof that Persians have the most extensive and famous literature about Islam, even though as history states over 95 percent of their literature was lost when first Alexander the Great, then Arabs, and finally the Mongols burned their libraries and destroyed most of the Persian literature.  Yet, their literature in fact [still] remains the most extensive literature in the history of Middle-East, and even the masterpiece `1001 Nights` is a mere translation of the Persian folktale, `1000 Myths`--you may refer to the Merriam-Webster dictionary for further reading, or Wikipedia itself.  It is noteworthy that the major body of Islamic poetry and tales, were penned by Persian poets such as Rumi, who for fear of persecution fled Iran and immigrate to Konya, a land that is now somewhere in modern Turkey, Attar, Hafez, Sa`adi, and Omar Khayyam wrote the most famous Islamic poetry discovered thus far, with Khayyam even inventing the new Islamic calendar.   Persians have even designed the shape of the Mosques as we know them today, painted almost all of Islamic related paintings, etc., and Iranians as such have every right, in fact a moral obligation to defend their scientists and poets who have contributed so much to humanity.  The reason why Persians were overwhelmingly responsible for almost all contributions that occurred in the Islamic era is because for almost seven centuries Persia ruled over most of Asia, or at least Middle East, and had empires that stretched from India to Greece.  In fact, before the invasion by Alexander the Great, for two centuries Persia was the lone Super Power in the world; hence, as a result they were very well educated, well-fed, and were encouraged to pursue science, literature, etc., because after all, they were in power, they had all the wealth, and the Empire made sure its own people were well taken care of.  So, it is not a racist thing, rather it just shows you the important role and the benefit that the environment can play in a particular society.  Finally, the works of the Greek mathematicians were completely different when compared to that of Khwarizmi, for that he alone discovered and articulated the use of numbers in mathematics, rather than the Greek methods of solving math problems via Geometry.  And, if Greek mathematicians had discovered Algebra, then there would have been a book written by a Greek, not the Iranian or Persian born Khwarizmi.  Whether, you like it or not, he is most likely the most important mathematician in history, and one of the most significant scientists of all time.  I suggest you honor his work by showing respect to this Ancient Iranian scientist who changed the course of humanity as we know it.
: I think al-K was a pretty cool guy as well. —Ruud 11:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Al-Khwarizmi: Persian Genius 

message: Persian after the advent of Islam was not the lingua franca of the middle east. All literary works under the Caliphate had to be in Arabic, and all religious text had to be in Arabic, so of course if someeone spoke Persian during the time of the Caliphate, it gives a strong indication of them being Persian.
This is a lie, Persian language wasn't exactly dead at that time, either. Actually, historically it was quite the opposite, many people had command of Persian and used it as a second language. The Prophet Muhammad himself is known to have spoken Persian( although he was an illiterate), would you use that argument to say that "it's a strong indication that he's Persian"? Also, this source lists him as an Arab:  it references Columbia University Press, very legit, won’t you agree? I’ll add it, since I have definitive evidence. MB 04:01, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article currently says he's Muslim and born in Persia. Let's just keep it at that Ok? The he was Persian, no he was Arabian, no he was Turkish arguments start to get tiring. —Ruud 04:11, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

text: It's absolutly certain the he was born in Persia, I can't help it if people interpret this as him being a Persian. Also note that neither Encyclopedia Britannica nor MacTutor mention anything about him being Arabic. The categories are only used to make information easier to find, sicne we now have both sources saying he's Persian and sources sating he's Arabic it is likely people will try to look for him under the category Persian mathematicians as well as Arabic mathematicains, so let's categorize him under both. Also I do not remember removing any references, to which reference are you refering? —Ruud 04:44, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

text: MB, your source is a mirror of wikipedia. In any case, his name carries the proof of his ethnicity. deeptrivia (talk) 04:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I see that more clearly now. Sorry about that. deeptrivia (talk) 05:06, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Right, since you see it now, can we refer to him as an Arab, and take off all Persian categories related to him? After all, this is an encyclopedia, if we want people to take Wiki seriously, we have to strive to make sure we only add pertinent data. Him being Persian is not sourced, but him being Arab is, are we agreed? Can we take off all references to him being Persian? MB 06:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sigh.... two letters... N... O... —Ruud 08:37, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't talking to Persian nationalistic extremists, obviously you're too blind to see the truth. The fact that you were born in a certain geographic location doesn't make you a national of the land. Many Arabs are born Brazil, that doesn't make them Brazilians, I know many people who were born in Canada or the USA, then went back to their original countries. It doesn't make them American and non-Arabs. Your logic is flawed, and you failed to present one source to prove he's Persian. I'm putting his Arabian nationality back, because I presented legit sources, until you do the same, any changes will be reported as deliberate vandalisms. 
P.S. Putting ellipses between letters is very childish. MB 16:31, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persian again, huh? 

message: Having al-Khwarizmi in his name doesnt mean that you are an ethnic khwarizmi. You can get this name also if you traveled from khwarizm to another place. There are many famous arabs who have names after persian places. One of the famous arabs was Abu al-Faraj al-Isfahani (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9003412). So according to the "persian name = persian nationality" theory he must be persian, since al-isfahani indicates he is a persian from isfahan in Iran. Answer is NO. He was an Arab. And not only that!! he was even a descendant of Marwan II, the last Umayyad caliph!!! 
He got the "al-isfahani" name when he moved from isfahan to baghdad. This, once and for all, proves that labeling Muhammad Abu Ja'far al-Khwarizmi as persian because of his name, is totally and absoultly invalid!!
Fact is:
*It is not certain where al-Khwarizmi was born. al-Tabri (one of the most trusted historians in islamic history) say's he was born in a small town near Baghdad.
*Khwarizm was a province of the arab empire (therefore arab passport and nationality)
*He lived his whole life in baghdad, and died there(capital city of the arab empire)
*He wrote all his books in Arabic. Not a single book in persian is known of him.
These facts should make him an Arab or at least stop him from being falsly labeled perisian. I personally have a family name after a persian place, but im not persian!! Jidan 20:31, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would've said that your place of birth doesn't designate your ethnicity, but you put it much more nicely, Jidan. MB 20:46, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why al-Khwarizmi is not Perisan 

message: The state of Iran didn't exist at that time, and Persia itself was part of the Arab Islamic Caliphate, Jidan gave good argument to him being Arab, you don't agree. You call your sources definitive while you dismiss our sources, which are just as legit. Until all editors reach a consensus(i.e. not you and your friends only), I'm taking off the ethnicity, and putting where the province truly belonged. Also, are we to expect that you'll demean yourself to senseless, biased edits whenever a dispute occurs? Shows how confident you and your accomplices are that these scholars are Persian, doesn't it? MB 21:54, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zmmz, what's with the obvious biased edits?  

message: Well, what do you know, I found a poem by another prominent Persian scientist and poet Al Biruni who he himself was from Khwarezm, and lived about a century or two after Khwarizmi.  Now, that is very important because if there was any mixing between Arabs and Persian in Khwarizm, he would have mentioned it.  It is written in Arabic because it was the language of the invading Arabs who required their subjects to speak it (Persians were discouraged from participating in their own culture).  It says, 
ل خوارزم ... کانوا غصنا" من دوحه الفرس 
"the inhabitants of Khwarezmia are Persian". Zmmz 01:58, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Encyclopaedia Iranica is a well-known scholarly source in Iranian history/culture and language. Try to be more neutral, specially when the evidence is against your POV.Heja Helweda 23:25, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No it is not. When evidence is against your POV try to learn the subject and modify your opinion accordingly.Heja Helweda 23:25, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proof: Poem about Khwarezm by Al Biruni

message: The Merriam-Webster dictionary says, “Function: biographical name
circa 780-circa 850 Muhammad ibn MusA al-KhwArizmI Islamic (Persian-born) mathematician & astronomer; one of the greatest scientific minds of Islam; source of much of mathematical knowledge of medieval Europe ”.  That is good enough for me.Zmmz 05:21, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree this should be the end of this really. There is no dispute, just Anti-Iranian reverts. --Kash 14:27, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Persian Born

message: We currently have only one source saying persian-born, Arabs were in control of Persia at the time, it stand to reason that he was born to a non-Persan family. Also, we have two sources naming him Arab:   at Columbia Encyclopedia. 6th edition. And  at Encarta. Both of them are good enough for me. MB 16:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  An Arab 

message: ....Khwarizm in the Khorasan province of Persia (now Khiva, Uzbekistan) - This is NOT true
Why persia???? It should say:
Khwarizm in the Khorasan province of the Abbasid Caliphate (now Khiva, Uzbekistan).
Just like today, khwarzim is not part of persia(Iran), back then it was also not part of persia(Iran), rather it was in in the province khursan, which was part of the arab abbasid empire, ruled by the Arabs!!!. Jidan 17:52, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Khwarizm was part of the arab abbasid empire 

message: First of all, let me say why he wasnt Turkic:
1)Turks had still not migrated to these areas in large numbers. 
2)During this period of history, Iranic tribes, such as the Tajiks, lived in these areas and still do. Something like 40% of Uzbekistan today is Tajik, Afghanistan is mostly Iranic, and ofcourse, Tajikistan is Iranic.
3)Iranic peoples have always lived, and still do live in these areas, and have lived there before Turks got there.
Now to the Arab issue:
1)How is it possible that Arabia, which was not even close to a civilised country at the time (as in culture, economy, etc... compared to Egypt, Persia, and other kingdoms) able to create such minds in such a short amount of time?  Its impossible.  For example, when the Mongols conquered Iran, they still gave the highest positions to Persians (scholars, scientists, governers, philosophers, religous leaders, etc...) because they, having been nomads with no real civilisation, did not know what to do.  That is why the Mughal Empire and other Central Asian empires were called Turco-Persian Empires, because the Persians were the administrators, and the Turkic tribes took care of the military aspects. It was the same with the Arabs.
2)The reason Arab population is so high today is because of the Arabisation of North Africa and major parts of the Middle East.  This, at the time of the Abbasid Caliphate was not the case.  The Arab populations were low, and highly out numbered by the other ethnicities.  Iranic peoples outnumbered Arabs by large numbers, therefore, the probability that Khwarizimi was Iranic (Tajik/Persian most likely) is the highest, especially because of the region he lived in, which was almost entirely Iranic at the time.  And the monarchy of the empire was Arab, but the administration was still largely Persian based. 
3)The attempted Arabisation of Iran by the Arabs required that the Arabs ban the Persian Language, which they did under penalty of death for violaters.  This is why Khwarizimi was forced to write in Arabic. Arabic was not the language of science at the time because it was high cultured, it was so because it was forced.  
These points that I have made, and which are all true (you can check them if you wish) and sensible, prove that he was not Arabic.  And more so, the laughable claim that he was Turkic is also thrown out.
Now hopefully you pan Arabs and pan Turks will just leave Iranian History alone, but I guess your jealousy of our history is too great.  -- Iranian Patriot.
::This is what they teach you in Iran. You will be surprised to know that there is another truth, a one which they dont tell you in Iran. Jidan 21:12, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These sources should be enough to put an end to this dispute. --Kash 22:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: @Iran Patriot, the text you wrote contains massive racist statements. For example: How is it possible that Arabia, which was not even close to a civilised country at the time (as in culture, economy, etc... compared to Egypt, Persia, and other kingdoms) able to create such minds...  In Iran its ok to say such racist things. But in the civilized world (and wikipedia) its NOT. Alone for this statement you should get banned. Jidan 00:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  The germans and the japanese started as uncivilised tribes and they are now the second and third most powerfull econimocal countries in the globe. From mohammad (the prophet) tell Al-khwarzimi, 200 years has passed. So why do you think that the arabs are not able to create smart men like al-khwarzmi?? Jidan 00:39, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Did you know that only 51% of the Iranian population are persians? ( https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html#People ) Jidan 05:01, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not Turkic, Not arab, but Persian/Tajik 

message: Khwarizm in the Ma wara al-nahr province of of the Abbasid Caliphate (now Khiva, Uzbekistan). This should be corrected in the main article, and replace: ...from Khwarizm in the Khorasan province of Persia (now Khiva, Uzbekistan).
left|thumb|Abbasid provinces during the caliphate of Harun
Jidan 22:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Show me please, where in the map above do you see Iran(in arabice fars)?Jidan 00:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

text: You are wrong. Egypt was a province under Achaemenid Empire and under the abbasids (misr). Jidan 00:45, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Did you know that only 51% of the Iranian population are persians? ( https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html#People ) Jidan 05:01, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

text: First, the map you showed right is that of ummayed and not the abbasid caliphate . Second, spain(al-andulas) was never part of the abbasid caliphate. Third, spain(al-andlaus) and sind(pakistan) were always provinces in their own. Fourth, if you actually read what i wrote, you will understand that i never claimed the all those provinces are arab. I only said that the province Iran(fars) didnt include khwarizm. Have a good look at the map above.. Jidan 15:58, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, replace Abbasid by Ummayid in my statement above, if that helps. Take it easy. deeptrivia (talk) 16:18, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Khwarizm in the Mawaraalnahr province of the Abbasid Caliphate (now Khiva, Uzbekistan) 

message: I want to thank you all for the info you shared regarding Al-Khwarizim ethnicity.
Although i disagree with some, i learned alot. Although I am sure that he was an Arab because of the points i listed above, still i see myself (as an arab) not natural enough to judge that. I also hope that my persian and arab friends understand that nationalism and patriotism has no place in an encyclopedia. Jidan 07:24, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Al-Khwarizim - NO to nationalism and patriotism 

message: Let's look into the Persians' claims, shall we?
Zmmz lists Merriam-Webster with this quote: "Function: biographical name circa 780-circa 850 Muhammad ibn MusA al-KhwArizmI Islamic (Persian-born) mathematician & astronomer; one of the greatest scientific minds of Islam; source of much of mathematical knowledge of medieval Europe".
Notice, it says "Persian-born" in parantheses, and gives Islamic as the nationality. Basically, they defined him by religion and stated his place of birth. He was born in Khwarizm, in the Khorasan province. At the time of his birth, it was part of the Arab Islamic Caliphate, now it's part of the Uzbegistan nation-state. Alas, Persians burnt us saying that it's in fact Persian, so let's take it as Persian. Now, according to sources cited by Heja Helwada, Khorasan in general had a huge Arab population. In accordance to that, defining him as Persian simply because he was born in Khorasan, is not only disputed at best, it also constitutes OR(original research) which is against Wiki's policy, see: WP:NOR
A troll showed up lately and claimed that Arabs are fighting a losing battle, I'm not sure we're in a battle-field here, but I got the gist: he thinks we have no sources...poor little guy!
Sources that state he's explicitly an Arab:
http://www.bartleby.com/65/al/AlKhowar.html
http://uk.encarta.msn.com/text_761560322___0/Khwarizmi_al-.html
http://www.britannica.com/ebi/article-9311992
Who's losing the "battle" now, I wonder? MB 18:56, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: MB, it's an undeniable fact that Khwarizmi was Persian and Khwarizm was a part of the Persian province of Khorasan. If you have any doubts, please check Khwarizmi's background and see how his father was a Magi. Whatever misunderstanding there is about Khwarizmi's ethnicity, is attributed to the fact that he lived under Arab rule and hence some sources list him as "Arab" by nationality. Otherwise, there is no argument about Khwarizmi's Persian ethnicity among informed Islamic scholars and historians such as Professor Bernard Lewis and others. --ManiF 20:11, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

text: at that time, shia islam had not arrived yet, so everyone was sunni. also at that time, arabic was forced onto the iranian people. if anyone spoke another language they were killed. Iranian Patriot 21:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What has Shia Islam to do with his father being a Magi?? Arabic was never forced on the Persians, you accepted it(or at least your ancestors did) by your own free will. If Arabs killed everyone who spoke Persian, how come all Iranians know the language? If we killed all Persian-speakers how come everone in Iran can speak it fluently? Obviously, your claims are refuted by logic itself. Again, I gave sources proving he's Arab from three very legit encyclopedias, give me one legit source that explicitly claim him Persian. MB 07:21, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Khwarizmi being Persian: Original research, which has nothing to do with Wikipedia 

message: when in 2000 years ago Persian think Persian you were living in small tribes and you didn't have any cities. But now when Persian and central Asians are thinking Globaly you are telling me that you're thinking Arabic. I think it's ridicules. Maybe you are destroying the Arabs or maybe you are too old for debating. Sorry by the way Central Asia and Iran are all Persia even Azerbaijani people like Nezami are Persian so learn because kharizm is in Persia Kharazmi is Persian. So you Arabs should just go back and think about your religion that all of us have problems about its rules, that thinking Arabic. and never call Persian Arabs because we don't want to share our beliefs with your beliefs. i am asking the Iranians and central Asians and especially Uzbeks to be united against Arabs to stop saying these words. if one arab tell me an arab scientist from the arabian peninsula he will make his country to be proud of him.
                                                By, Maziar Fayaz
::::Al-Khwarizmi was an Arab and has nothing to do with Farsis. Has not it still been proven by all those credible sources? Is our POV more important and accurate than those reliable sources?? Diyako Talk + 20:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sorry Mr. MB you shouldn'y think Arabic 

message: This seems to be a relatively trivial dispute, and the article has already been protected for a week.  I'm unprotecting. --Tony Sidaway 17:35, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The edit war continued, so I've reprotected it. —Ruud 21:30, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unprotecting

message: Can someone transliterate the frontispiece from al-Khwarizmi's Algebra for me. Cheers, —Ruud 19:11, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What does "tasneef al-sheikh al-ajal" mean? On al-Khwarizmi's etnicity... I haven't read the discussion you have had above so haven't really made my mind up but it seems that his etnicity is disputed, even by historians, and that the article in Wikipedia should probably mention something about that. —Ruud 21:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need the help of someone who can read/write/transliterate Arabic 

message: R.Koot, you've been an admin for what, less than five days now? And already you put al-khwarizmi as Persian and protected the page! Then you went on and added Persian Mathematician for a book you asked to be transliterated, very mature. I think making you an admin was a hasty decision, you and your Persian friends ganged-up and are conspiring to put up falsified information, even after I described by reason, and fact why al-Khwarizmi is in fact an Arab. MB 21:58, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  So...abusing power, huh? So early, too! 

message: I am sorry to disappoinment you all, but picking a random website in the internet is not enough.
For finding articles that al-khwarizmi was an arab mathemtician just click this google link: . Funny also that while SouthernComfort tried to prove he is persian with some web links, he also proved at the same time that he is an arab! LOOL
 
With all respect Ruud, but with voting we can even make isaac newton a persian. LOOL
The best source i have seen in the internet that talks about al-khwarzimi in a detailed and a dedicated way (not just one line like the website you provided) was this: http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Al-Khwarizmi.html. And this source is authoritive and neutral, and it uses as a refernce 53 Books!!!...unfortunatly, they didnt say he was persian!
As i said 1001 times, we can't say that al-khwarzmi is persian, just because his name indicates he is from khwarzim, which is persian. Its SIMPLY NOT RIGHT. 
Lets take this man:'Abd al-Wahab al-Daylami. From his title we can say that he is from Daylam, a region on the southern shore of the Caspian Sea in Iran. But he is NOT persian!! He is the Ministry of Justice of Yemen. Although he himself admits that his ancestors came from persia, during the occupation of persia to yemen, he is still a yemeni!! Nobody dears to call him persian.
Lets take another man: Omar Khayyam. This man is persian, because he wrote in persian, lived in  Nishapur, in Persia. But his name indicates that he stems from a prominent arabian tribe, al-khayyam. See  http://www.montgomerycollege.edu/Departments/StudentJournal/volume1/Robert_Green.pdf. The fact that tentmaker doesnt mean khayyami in persian, also supports this. But nobody dears to call him arab, beceause he lived in persia, wrote in persian, and was assimilated with the persian culture.
Another man: Abu faraj al-isfahani (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9003412). If this man did not write in his book that he was an arab, he would also be labeled falsely as persian!! since al-isfahani means he comes from isfahan, which is in persia and predominatly persian. This man also lived in baghdad
Do you get my point!!!! 
     It does not matter where your ancestors are from, it ONLY matter where are you NOW! And thats NOT persia!! 
Al-khwarzmi ancestors might have been persian from khwarzim and even zorostorian (like al-tabari mentioned), but still, NOW he is not. He did NOT live in persia, he lived in baghdad. He wrote in arabic, he did not NOT write in persian.  Ibn al-Nadim didnt mention a single book of him in persian.  These are FACTS!!, unlike the speculations about his ethnicity.
Nobody argues about the ethnicity of ibn sina or al-biruni, because unlike al-khwarzmi, they lived in persia.  
Since i know that the persians will not agree with all i said (without regard if its right or wrong), I suggest the following natural, open soultion:
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Abū ‘Abd Allāh Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī (c.780 - 850) (Arabic: أبو عبد الله محمد بن موسى الخوارزمي, Persian موسى خوارزمى) was a Muslim mathematician, astronomer,   and geographer. 
Because of his book on the systematic solution of linear and quadratic equations, al-Kitāb al-mukhtaṣar fī hīsāb al-ğabr wa’l-muqābala, al-Khwarizmi is, together with Diophantus, considered to be the father of algebra. The word algebra is derived from al-ğabr, one of the two operations used to solve quadratic equations, as described in his book. Algoritmi de numero Indorum, the Latin translation of his other major work, on the Indian numerals, introduced the positional number system and the number zero to the Western world in the 12th century. The words algorism and algorithm stem from Algoritmi, the Latinization of his name.
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This is my last entry regarding this issue, i dont really care anymore. But Keep in mind that if the entry was no put as natural as possible, it would be continuesly changed!!
My regards and thanks to all(specially Ali doostzadeh)
Jidan 21:42, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Al-Khwarizmi is NOT persian - for the last time