Talk:Half-elven

message: I added a "cite needed" tag, on the statement "The children of Elrond were also given free choice of kindred..." Is there evidence of this in any of the texts? My impression was, as suggested above, that Arwen's choice was of the same nature as Luthien's—that by marrying a mortal she was forced to choose his fate. I'm not a Tolkien scholar, though, so perhaps there is evidence for the statement in some of his writings. If so, a citation will clear this up.--Srleffler 06:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a statement. I think it is in The Silmarillion in the 'Of the Rings of the Power and the Third Age' bit, or maybe in Appendix A of LotR (the 'Tale of Aragorn and Arwen'), where Aragorn and Elrond are talking Aragorn says "But lo! Master Elrond, the time of choosing is drawing near", oe something. I'll try and remember to look this up. Carcharoth 11:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, don't know how to put it into the main article, but the reference you are looking for is LoTR, Appendix A,1,(i) at the end of the second section it says "But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appoinyed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal..."195.128.251.33 00:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This may imply that either Elrond lived as an elf while postponing his choice, leaving his options open, thus his children were half-elves (in couplings between races of light, the children seem to belong to the more material race) of the line of Eärendil and Elwing, thus getting also a choice, or that, the same way as the descendants of Elros were giveng a lengthened lifespan and the elven trait of choice to die, the descendants of Elrond inherit the choice.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.147.50.15 (talk) 16:56, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Arwen's choice

message: I think that line of the Half-Elven section should indicate what each person was, maybe by colour. What do other people think?--Apyule 14:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Half-elven are already in italics. If you mean that Men and Elves should be distinguished, possibly they can, by introducing bold text; but I'm not in favour of this, and certainly against using other colours. Súrendil 12:13, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Line of the Half-Elven

message: I added the "unreferenced" template to this article:"This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed."Yes, everything in this article "comes from Tolkien ... somewhere", but online sources say a lot of things about Tolkien that aren't actually verifiable from his works. I find that the Wikipedia articles on Tolkien tend to be pretty casual about cites, but IMHO the cites are important. -- 201.53.7.16 (talk) 14:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Please add cites to this article

message: Going by the sources I've found, half-elves as it were had no choice to make; the choice was a gift given to a single family of them.
From what I've seen of Tolkien's works and Christopher Tolkien's aclarations, children born between men and elves were born as mortals with features, and perhaps abilities, inherited from their elven parent. It's the same reasoning as why Lúthien was an elf despite being a half-Maia (she belongs to the younger kind but inherits traits from the older one). Had Elwë not died due to the Silmaril's curse, Dior would have never be able to inherit the throne, as he would have died by then. When Eärendil crossed the sea and Elwing followed him, the two of them, along with their sons Elrond and Elros, were awarded with the possibility to chose their destiny to live as mortal men or immortal elves, defaulting to the second choice while still undecided (i.e. as long as they don't make a decision, they live like elves, but once they make it, they live as they choose). Those awarded with the choice, if deciding to live as mortals, receive a long lifespan and the elven ability to chose the moment of their death, both traits that can be inherited and that seem to get stronger when they follow a righteous life and to gradually wane when they don't (the last few Númenorian kings didn't reach two centuries while Aragorn looked like a man in his prime when he was over a century old, or at least around that age). Half-elves with the choice that chose to be elves may have the capability, as oppossed to those who chose humanity, to pass on the right of choice to their children (either that or Elrond fathered Arwen before he made his choice).
None other half-elf has been shown to have a choice on their destiny (nor have lengthened lifespan), and every version I found of Eärendil's story refers to the choice as a gift bestowed only upon Eärendil and his family, that no other half-elf would receive and with no possibility of backtrack.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.147.50.15 (talk) 16:49, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you're over-analyzing this.  We know nothing regarding the status of Dior and his children.  Except for Elwing they all died before the end of the First Age, and Tolkien does not say whether they left the world (as humans do) or returned to Mandos.  The notion of "choice" was basically a one-time thing instituted by Manwe at the end of the First Age (Sil. p. 249), basically an attempt to tidy up the mess to date: Earendil, Elwing, Elros, and Elrond all had to decide which kindred to belong to (and it is clear that Elrond made his choice at that time -- nothing indicates that he made a "deferred choice").  According to Appendix A, Elrond's children also had to make a choice by deciding whether to accompany Elrond to Aman.  This is not quite the same "free choice" that Elrond had; they could not remain Eldar in the "mortal lands" of Middle-earth independently.  (This, I think, was another attempt to make the lines between mortal and immortal more firm:  the Valar clearly wanted all the Elves to come to Valinor.)  Trying to abstract general rules of inheritance from this goes well beyond anything that Tolkien described. -- Elphion (talk) 20:43, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Choice