Talk:John McCabe (composer)

message: Am I the only Wikipedian who was at the première? If not, please share your thoughts. As it happens, my father is the pianist's agent, so that's why I was there: I wasn't sure what to think of the piece - I preferred the Lyapunov Transcendental Studies that Malcolm Binns also played that night.--Vox Humana 8' 17:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homage to Mussorgsky: Epithalamium 

message: I added this reference:
Kennedy, Michael (2006). The Oxford Dictionary of Music.  
Jerome Kohl has added a citation tag and an inline message: "Edition number, place, publisher needed; also, there is a second editor/author, and there should be a specific article ref."
Hmm. The date, publisher and place are perfectly clear: 2006, Oxford and Oxford. It's the second revised edition but there is no necessity to add this. There is only one author (although Joyce Bourne is credited as 'Associate Editor'. Do references always have to cite 'associate editors'? I don't think so. 
If Jerome Kohl wants to add this information - which is readily available on the internet — he can do so. --Kleinzach 23:16, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I have found this information and have added it to some other articles. The citation as it stands does not say where the book was published (New York, actually, as well as Oxford), not does it state whether the publisher is Oxford University Press or Clarendon Press (often the UK publisher for books with the NY imprint of Oxford University Press). Indeed the date is clear, which is why I did not ask for it. However, an article title really is needed, I think, since dictionaries are usually referenced by article title, rather than page number. While I appreciate the work you have been doing by adding references to this book on many articles, I am getting a little tired of clearing up afterward. Please in future try to include a complete bibliographic entry (which, by the way, should not include a tally of the number of pages in the book).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have thought the ISBN would tell you everything you ever wanted to know!  You could almost cite a book by that alone...  BTW, "Language: English" and "Publisher: Oxford ; New York : Oxford University Press, 2006."  That's according to WorldCat and the others seem to verify this.  Hope that helps?  --Jubilee♫clipman 23:40, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Not very surprisingly, this is exactly the information I found (amongst other things) when I did an ISBN search myself in OCLC, in connection with several other articles with this book  recently added by Kleinzach. I will repeat that I am grateful for Kleinzach's efforts to add these references, but do wish that missing bibliographical data could be included in any future such additions.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:51, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I am not convinced that the specific article title needs to be cited, given that it is the exact same name as the WP article subject...  --Jubilee♫clipman 23:42, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Is it? Why should I make that assumption? If the same book were cited in the article Twelve-tone technique, would I assume an article of the same title appears in the dictionary, or should I rather assume the reference is to the article on Arnold Schoenberg?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:51, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm, I see your point.  To be fair to you even more, there might also be other refs to McCabe elsewhere in ODM which are pertinent (eg "Piano Music" or whatever), so there is a serious point here.  Klein hasn't added masses of these so it should be easy to sort it out.  See my list User:Jubileeclipman/List of problematic 21st-century composer articles for others.  The additions are absolutely necessary in some cases, though, as they completely unref'ed...  Klein should probably sort it, in actual fact, however (I suspect he's on it right now, indeed).  --Jubilee♫clipman 00:04, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am working at some speed. A lot of material is currently being deleted and we need to check as many articles as possible. We all know that there is variation in the style of references and this needs to be addressed in the future. Jerome Kohl can improve the ODM refs if he likes, adding publisher and place etc, - that's fine. It's worth buying a copy of the book, assuming you don't have the 20 volumes of Grove. (I got mine from the USA for less than 20 dollars.) BTW I only cite the ODM if there is an actual entry on the subject of the article. I don't include anything indirect (for obvious practical reasons) — if I did I would indicate it — this is the first time in four years that anyone has raised this point. --Kleinzach 02:27, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've now removed the citation tag and also the incorrect credit to Joyce Bourne, who was not a co-editor and doesn't use her married name. --Kleinzach 02:50, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

text: I'm sure I don't know what name Joyce Bourne Kennedy may or may not use, but the Library of Congress lists the authors of the Oxford Dictionary of Music as "by Michael Kennedy; Joyce Bourne Kennedy", and library catalogs routinely list them together in this fashion (possibly mistakenly following the lead of those prize buffoons at the LOC). Perhaps you can enlighten me about the appearance of the half-title page.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:17, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation for a reference?