Talk:Doric dialect (Scotland)

message: ααFy is iis airtin nae in Doric?/Why is this article not in Doric
Doric:
Am ah ii ainly een fa hinks aat iis page maun be scrievit in ii leid it's spikkin aboot? It nae bein in ii doric ainly maks fowk fa cain ii leid sty oan ii eeswal wye o hinkin, fit is aat its nae a leid avaa. 
aasae ah wid likk tae pynt oot aat ii doric eesit here isnae affae braid. Ither fowk maun cain fit like wir leid is. Fan Ah'm syin iis ah maistlit spikkin aboot ii wee poyim ii airtin haes. It eeses 'hoo' fit is a waird fae ii sooth insteid o 'foo', an cain thon's foo wi spikk?
Aye an fit div yi nae hae Wikipedia in Doric fir? -- Anonymous
:Wi div hae Wikipedia in Doric. -- Derek Ross |  Talk 18:54, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. That's a Lowland Scots wikipedia, but there's scanty Doric (north east) on it. --MacRusgail 15:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's mostly a matter of pronunciation. I was born and bred in the North east so if I were to read it out loud to you, you would realise that it was Doric. But it's maybe not quite so obvious when you are reading it yourself. Paticularly since some of it has been written by folk that don't really know Scots of any kind that well. -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Which dialect to use for this article?

message: Can I ask why someone keeps on changing the "f" spellings to "wh"? "Fit like", not "whit like" is the Doric form. Respelling into some kind of "standard Scots" is is like trying to write it all in RP. --MacRusgail 15:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But surely it's even worse to respell Doric as if it's some variant of "standard English". Doric speakers know that the "wh" spelling is pronounced "f" in Doric and that "ui" is pronounced "ee". They don't need to have Doric spelled using phonetic English "f"s and "ee"s in order to know how to pronounce it and the article points out how to pronounce "wh" and "ui" the Doric way for those who aren't Doric speakers. -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:22, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Perhaps. Language rules are rarely without exception.  I've never heard fisherfolk talking about whales so I can't be sure whether they pronounce it "whale" or "fale". However I would note that the fisher town of "Whitehills" is pronounced "Fitehills" in Doric even though I have never seen it spelled that way. -- Derek Ross | Talk 22:26, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "Wh"

message: The BBC Radio 4 Listen Again page only links to the most recent programme, which is not relevant to the current article.
* BBC Radio 4's programme 'Open Country' (Saturday 15 April 2006) interviewed Jean Thompson and Isobel Balfour from the Doric-Speaking Club in Alford. Use the 'Listen Again' feature to hear the programme up to one week after transmission.
--Zach Beauvais 10:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links 

message: Weel ah hink aat es pag' shid be ca'n wir sae ca'd "dialect" ae leid. Hit es nae gweed enouch fur ii scottis folk. Sae gies wir leid baik ye guffy spikkin hooers. 
:Awa ye gang, ye foul-mou'd gype. It's a dialect o Scots, nae a dialect o English. Hae a keek at Scots language gin ye want oor airticle on the leid. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nae Gweed ataa 

message: a Ken am aboot ti write in english, but ma spoken doric is way better than ma written...
I was always led to believe that doric was germanic, due to the gutteral tones... could be way wrong!  I agree that it's a dialect, it's not scots. We are as individuals, scottish or Scots (plural).  We speak with a scottish accent and an odd dialect called "Doric".
Bein born and bred N. E. Scotland, it annoys me that many Aberdonian deny this part of their heritage as it sounds "common" or "country", well that should be "yokel" for a kick off!  I've learned this from personal experience and frankly, am disappointed.  I think you should be proud of your heritage, this is the only part of the world that speaks this particular type of doric and we should try our hardest to maintain it!
So, dis onybody think am richt? Stuartfield should stay Crichie, New Pitsligo should stay Kiack..., yer semmet should ging aneath yer sark, which hopefully was pressed afore ye wint oot o the hoose!  It should nae maeter far ye bide of far yer fae, its a' the same!
::Nae shair faur ye'r comin fae - Scots (wi aa its dialecks) is Germanic.  English is Germanic, Norrowegian, Dutch, Laich Saxon is aa Germanic.  (A'm nae fae the NE, sae sairry gin ma Doric's a tait orra) - Tulloch GOrum  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.136.110 (talk) 12:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are ye sure far it comes fae? 

message: Correct me if I'm wrong, 'cause I'm mere half Scot and living in England so didn't want to jump in making corrections before checking, but the article says that 'futret' is wrongly applied to ferrets when it actually means weasel.  I was under the impression that it meant anything of that type: weasels, stoats, ferrets, and all manner of similar critters...  It's only a tiny point, I know, but it is a particularly wonderful word in a wonderful dialect. :o)  - Shrivenzale 18:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Futrets! 

message: Has no-one here read the deeply incitefull and educated books by L A Waddell, an expert in ancient History who states that the original Indo European languages of Britain (Celtic and English, ie British) were derived directly from Phoenician(ie Mycenean/Trojan/Greek) vikings and traders who had been present in these islands as far back as 3000BC. Partolon(St Bartholomew) a Doric coloniser arrived in 400BC amongst many other rough Greek(Doric) colonisers. Geoffrey of Monthmouth translated old British texts which stated that British was descended from "rough Greek", which was clearly a latin translation of Doric.
Lets try and look deeper into history than the shortsighted and frankly simplisitic version of history of these isles peddalled by the Victorians and Georgians which is just out of date.92.0.226.171 (talk) 18:29, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Laurence Waddell was an expert on Tibet. His expertise on comparative linguistics was not quite so extensive.  His theory may just have looked plausible during the 1920s but we've learned a lot since then. While there's no doubt that the Phoenician trade network spread as far as the British Isles, the linguistic connections that he posits are clearly Edwardian nonsense.  -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The origin of the term Doric is...rough/early Greek..ie Doric, its obvious 

message: Moved from article to talk

The most distinctive and common Doric phrase is Ay ay, fit like? (Ay Ay, whit like? - ay is sometimes spelt ayeThe SND entry for ay has 16 citations using ay and two using aye.DSL.ac.uk The SND also states:
"The spelling of this and the preceding word in Sc. is irregular, but ay = yes, and aye = always, seem to predominate. Both words in Sc. are markedly diphthongal but not identical in pronunciation. N.E.D. and Un. Eng. Dict. prefer ay = always, and aye = yes, the first of which rhymes with the ay series of Eng. words like say, day, etc., while the second does not. The Concise Eng. Dict. spells ay = yes, and aye = ever, always." ) ("Hello, how are you?").
* A'm awfu sair needin the lavvy - (awfu pronounced 'affa') I am bursting for the toilet
* A'm fair dancin mad - I am in a rage.
* A'm fair forfochten - I am very tired.
* ay is't - reply to the greeting fine mornin
* ay fairly or ay michty ay - yes indeed
* aye peckin or peckin awa - Literally "Always pecking." The reply to Fou's yer doos?
* the Broch - Fraserburgh also Burghead near Elgin.
* caumie doun! - Calm down!
* Causey Mounth - the road over the "Mounth" or Grampians
* come awa ben the hoose for a fly an a piece - Welcome. Come in and I'll make you a cup of tea and something to eat.
* Claik - the Doric dialect of Buchan fishing villages
* dinna be coorse or A'll skelp yer dowp - Don't be naughty or I will smack your bottom. dock can also be used instead of dowp.
* fa? (wha?) fit? (whit?) fit wey? (whit wey?) faur? (whaur?) fan? (whan) - "who? what? what way? why? where? when?"
* far aboots? (Whaur aboots?) - Whereabouts? (Aberdeen is nicknamed "Furry Boots City" from a humorous spelling of far aboots - furry boots.)
* far div ye bide? (Whaur div ye bide?) - "Where do you live?"
* fit? (Whit) - "What?"
* fit like? (Whit like) - A greeting, essentially, "How are you doing?", to which the response is Aye... tyauvin on. (Aye tawin on) "Fine, thanks" or "juist tyauvin awa
* fit ye deein? (Whit ye daein?) - "What are you doing?"
* fit's adee? (Whit's adae?) - "What's wrong?"
* foggy bummer - Bumblebee
* fool skittery bugger - dirty loose-bowelled animal. Derogatory expression when farm-animals refuse to do as instructed. Suitable for someone else's dog.
* for a filie (for a whilie) - for a long time
* fou lang (hou lang) - how long
* fou's yer dous? (Hou's yer dous?) - literally "how are your pigeons?", now used as "how are you?" A stock phrase, not so often used in speech as to send up Doric.
* futrat (Whitrat) - Weasel or other Mustelid, but commonly used for ferret now.
* gealt - cold
* gie's a bosie! - "Give me a hug!"
* gulsochs - sweets, cream cakes, doughnuts, caramels etc.
* knapdarloch - dung hanging in knots in wool round a sheep's bottom
* louns an quines (louns an queans) - Lads and lassies, boys and girls. (NB loun or loon has no derogatory connotation in Doric)
* min - Man, as in Ay ay, min.
* puir auld craitur - frail old man (or woman) (puir is pronounced 'peer')
An Aberdonian has told me of this locally prized example.  A shoeshop assistant asks a customer:  "Fit fit fits fit fit (which fit fits which foot)?". Wikiain (talk) 00:51, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Select vocabulary

message: Known by all and sundry as Doric, but moved to more pretentious moniker. How many folk in the north east say that they speak "Mid Northern Scots"? Doric was more widely spread but it is now almost universal as a self-designation.--MacRusgail (talk) 21:22, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I may be wrong but the move appeared to be made unilaterally, without discussion. Unless I'm missing something, Doric is the far more widespread term for the tongue. How many people come to this article via the re-direct for Doric versus via its current handle? Must be 100:1 at least. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

text: Yep. It was a daft move. -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:59, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Are we for moving back to Doric then? Anyone got any reason to favour the current handle? Mutt Lunker (talk) 18:25, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Move it back, I'd say.  I think when something has a common name in widespread use and a formal name that's only used in academic contexts, Wikipedia generally favours the common name.  Policy guideline WP:UCN seems to cover this.  --Deskford (talk) 00:09, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

text: Doric may well be an almost universal as a self-designation used by speakers of Mid Northern Scots but that begs the question of how many people who speak, for example, Insular Scots, North Northern Scots or South West Central Scots use such pretentious monikers? Should those article handles also be changed? And if so, to what? Since Doric and Doric dialect are redirects, are people any more likely going to type in Doric dialect (Scotland) as they are Mid Northern Scots or Northeast Scots when trying to access this article? Will there be any gain in wiki-usability by changing the name? The scholarly title (used in reliable sources?) does sit better with the navigation table to the right, and, (obscure?) scholarly titles are hardly out-of-place in an encyclopedia. Nogger (talk) 19:16, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stupid rename 

message: Some of this material appeared paragraph for paragraph in Dorians. It certainly does not belong there as the Scots had not a thing to do with the Greeks. I brought it to here only to find it was a duplicate. So, if you are looking for it here after having been there you will find it in the first subsection.
I dare say this article needs a great deal of work. The work I see is in the introductory and transitional sentences. One is not really sure of what is going on. I did not check the detail but if valid I applaud detail. You just have to make it all make sense in a connected way.Dave (talk) 02:27, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Material duplicated in Dorians

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I have just modified  on Doric dialect (Scotland). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070926234652/http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/getent4.php?plen=5278&startset=1191599&query=AY&fhit=aye&dregion=form&dtext=snd to http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/getent4.php?plen=5278&startset=1191599&query=AY&fhit=aye&dregion=form&dtext=snd#fhit
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090714101448/http://www.soundcomparisons.com:80/Eng/Direct/Englishes/SglLgBuckieTrad.htm to http://www.soundcomparisons.com/Eng/Direct/Englishes/SglLgBuckieTrad.htm
*Added  tag to http://www.rosehearty.com/features/speech/index.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081204114926/http://www.readingbus.co.uk/FitLike to http://www.readingbus.co.uk/FitLike/
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The rambling section about Greek really isn't credible. I would suggest the article would be improved if it stayed away from folk etymology. 89.242.187.6 (talk) 21:25, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek 

message: The sentence "Crichie, the Doric name for Stuartfield is derived from the Gaelic word creachann (summit of a rock)." is the sort of nonsense put about by people who want to assert Gaelic at the expense of the other languages which were common in Scotland including Pictish, Anglic and Old Norse - and the sort of thing which brings Wikipedia into disrepute.
"Crichie" is Pictish and means "The boundary burn". There is another "Creichie" nearby - at Fyvie - and many other places with a "crich" or "creich" element.
Despite being Pictish, Dwelly has "Crich" as a form of "crioch" meaning "boundary, frontier, march, border....." The "-ie" is a contraction of "igh", also recognised by Dwelly, meaning "Burn, river course" Freuchie (talk) 12:33, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Why the anti-Gaelic commentary, if there is an error surely it is an innocent one? If anything the article is misleading by suggesting the influence of Gaelic is confined to a few place-names, when there is considerable room for insertion of information about its apparent influence on vocab, phonology and grammar. Gaelic was spoken in the north-east of Scotland from the early Middle Ages until the 1980s, and although English/Scots has also been spoken there since the twelfth or thirteenth century (Old Norse was never spoken in the north-east) this is still centuries after the disappearance of Pictish, so a name like that must come from Gaelic. The word crich is Gaelic for 'land' or 'boundary', common in place-names throughout Scotland; Pictish and Gaelic though were very similar languages, perhaps mutually comprehensible, and Pictish would have had a cognate, but there is no way to tell in any instance like this if a name like that is ultimately Pictish or was coined for the first time by Gaelic speakers, say between c. 900 and c.1500. Having said that, I have no idea about this creachann etymology here, the claim isn't sourced. If it relies on scholarly work the suggestion will have been formulated based on early forms of the name.  Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:57, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links to Scottish Gaelic