Talk:Eastern Promises

message: In the article, someone state that with two exceptions, all tattoos on main hero are authentic and accurate; but one of this “exceptions” is actually totally irrelevant, basically – it’s 100% wrong fact, and since it has no references, links, etc, I assume it’s just a personal opinion of someone, who is possibly not familiar closely with Russian culture and/or language (no disrespect, of course).
Anyway, that’s one of this exceptions: “The words on his left wrist, Не верь, не бойся, не проси, is the title of a pop song by Russian dance duo t.A.T.u..”
So why is it wrong? Fact 1 – yes, there is a song by Russian teen-pop band t.A.T.u. with a title like that. Не верь, не бойся, не проси in Russian means literally - “Don’t trust anyone, don’t be afraid, don’t ask anyone for something”, but in a more aphoristic, laconic form, and poetic, something like “No trust, no fear, No asking” if you know what I mean.
And this is an old prison saying/proverb, dating way back in the times of Soviet Union, like a short, dao-way to explain best strategy to survive in prison: a. don’t trust anyone, not amongst fellow prisoners, nor guards/officers, etc. everyone is an enemy; everyone is a treat and may be a spy; b. don’t be afraid, because they will sense your fear, and this will invite more violence on you; c. don’t ask anyone, because that puts you in a position of debter, like you own something in return, and that you want to avoid at all costs in prison.
And it was documented by Varlam Shalamov in one of “The Kolyma Tales” (1955) and by Solzhenitsyn in “The Gulag Archipelago” (1967) as not just saying, but actually “three commandments” of sort in soviet prisons and camps, and dating back in pre-Soviet times.
And since this expression in Russian simply became a concept of itself, sort of a “urban myth”, or whatever – and yes, definitely a great prison tattoo (and probably with authentic meaning in real “vory v zakone” hierarchy). And it was used in various songs, movies, books, cited and etc., so obviously, as a prison tattoo this is not just a song name. It’s this ancient Russian prison aphorism, so this info about t.A.T.u. must be removed from “unauthentic” examples. I actually did that, so I'm just posting this explanation.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.91.212.140 (talk) 20:13, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Tattoo information disproof

message: Vori v zakanoi translates to thiefs within the law, not thiefs in law. First, the word "v" is only literarly "in." In the context of the phrase, the word means "within." Second, these guys don't have their relatives married. I propose a change in the article and to the linked article title.--RossF18 04:37, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Thiefs in law

message: This section should not be nearly as long as it is.  IMO, one paragraph of reviews and two paragraphs of plot should be sufficied. --JD79 12:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? Wikipedia is not paper. The film has 78 reviews on Rotten Tomatoes and I added reviews proportionate to the percentage. 9 positive reviews and 2 negative reviews is 81.8%. When I added them to the article, the RT percentage was 83% positive. I suppose 5 positive and 1 negative (83.3%) may have been better. Now the percentage is 85% so maybe 6 positive and 1 negative (85.7%) would be OK. The problem is selecting only 1 negative review to show. I don't think 11 reviews is too much. The section gives a good overview of the general consensus among critics. If you read the section you'll see that the critics talk about the movie *and* the director *and* the cast and also previous works by the director. I suppose it could be split into sub-sections (film,director,cast) but I think it's fine as it is. What else is going to get added to this article? The Plot will probably expand and the Production section may accumulate more background information, but I think the critical reception is a valuable part of the article. In order to come to a compromise, I've removed 3 positive reviews and 1 negative review so now the ratio is 6 to 1 (85.7%). Although choosing only one negative review to highlight is difficult -- that is why I included 2 negative reviews, which meant I had to include 9 postive reviews to accurately reflect critical consensus. I suppose one could include an equal ratio of positive/negative reviews, although that may be giving undue weight to a minority view. --Pixelface 05:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I should also note that the  template is for the size of articles, not sections. --Pixelface 05:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the section just looks too long due to a lack of information about other items, like a full-fledged Plot section, Cast, and Production.  Batman Begins#Reception is pretty lengthy, but there are other extensive sections, too.  I'd suggest more information about the film itself.  Below is a new link I found. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I cannot see how you can sum up a review in two sentences and give the reader any actual information other than blurbs. You removed the Carina Chocano review and the Todd McCarthy review and I don't really see why. Rotten Tomatoes classified the Chocano review as "fresh". The article really isn't going to accumulate much more information — maybe some Production information, maybe some info on tattoos, but that's pretty much it. --Pixelface (talk) 05:16, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Critical Reception 

message: ===1===
*Viggo Mortensen Interview
*David Cronenberg Makes Eastern Promises
*RT Talks Eastern Promises with David Cronenberg and Viggo Mortensen
*Viggo Mortensen Fights Nude In 'Eastern Promises' — But Could He Take Borat?
*'Eastern Promises': Mystery Men
*Behind the banter, 'Eastern Promises' actor and director offer serious insights
*Cronenberg likens 'Eastern Promises' bathhouse scene to 'Psycho' shower scene
*‘Eastern’ exposure
*Exploring Humanity, Violence and All
*INT: David Cronenberg
===2===
*Cuppa Coffee Pours Out Eastern Promises Titles
*FOREIGN AFFAIRS
*Whose Reality?
*David Cronenberg and Viggo Mortensen and the Hard Work of Killing
*Cronenberg promises seediness
*Viggo Mortensen coolly dominates in Russian mob thriller 'Eastern Promises'
*Cronenberg likens 'Eastern Promises' bathhouse scene to 'Psycho' shower scene
*'Eastern Promises': Mystery Men
*Cronenberg's "Eastern Promises" wins top prize at Toronto film fest
*Cronenberg Delivers on EASTERN PROMISES
*Old Blood And Guts
===3===
*EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW: DAVID CRONENBERG (EASTERN PROMISES)
*Eastern Promises a 'breakthrough,' Lantos says (dead)
*'Eastern Promises' more than gore
*Oiled and dangerous
* Shining a light on London's seedy underbelly
*Viggo Mortensen: My painful decision to fight in the nude
*Fulfilled Promise
*Russian attack
*Interview: David Cronenberg on Eastern Promises - UK Spin!
*Russia! Magazine Presents Actor Viggo Mortensen With 'Best Russian Accent' Award
*The new brutality
Headlines. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 16:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headlines 

message: *EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW: DAVID CRONENBERG (EASTERN PROMISES)
*Eastern Promises a 'breakthrough,' Lantos says (dead)
*'Eastern Promises' more than gore
*Oiled and dangerous
* Shining a light on London's seedy underbelly
*Viggo Mortensen: My painful decision to fight in the nude
*Fulfilled Promise
*Russian attack
*Interview: David Cronenberg on Eastern Promises - UK Spin!
*Russia! Magazine Presents Actor Viggo Mortensen With 'Best Russian Accent' Award
*The new brutality
Headlines. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 16:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 3

message: I'm surprised to see why would someone want to remove facts on the significance of tattoos in the Russian criminal underworld - it's a major part of what adds elements of authenticity to this film.
TheDarkSavant (talk) 16:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think there's much wrong with it, except that the title is lame and it's unsourced.  Restored with reliable sources under the name "Russian underworld tattoos in the film" it would be a welcome addition. --Tony Sidaway 17:25, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Although you re-added it, there's still no source. Marc Shepherd (talk) 17:47, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

text: As far as I can tell, you are quoting generic sources on Russian tattoos. You haven't quoted a source that confirms that the tattoos used in this film are indeed what you say they are. That's your own analysis, and is therefore original research. Just find a third-party source that confirms the link you are saying exists. If it's that important, there will be such a source. And if there's no such source, I don't think it belongs here (see WP:OR). Marc Shepherd (talk) 21:27, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. This means that perfectly valid analysis might not find a home here, because it has never been published in a reliable source. As I noted, if it's that important, surely some other source has commented on the connection. If no other source has made the connection before you, then regardless of how true it might be, how important is it? Marc Shepherd (talk) 21:44, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I think the section still needs a little work. Could we move it to this talk page to work on it? --Pixelface (talk) 07:18, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, as long as you're doing that, I might as well put the mention of tattoos back into the lead. This is because the lead is merely a summary of the article, and while the section remains detailing the use of tattoos, the lead should reflect this. I know they're an incidental point, but they do appear to have been seized upon for some real-word comment. Steve T  • C 00:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I expect that somewhere we have an article on such tattoos. Find it.  Add relevant information to that article. Cite that article under "see also" in this one.  Eastern Promises is, first, last and everywhere in between, a work of fiction.  It is not a documentary. It is not a treatise on tattoos worn by the Russian mafia.  We must be careful not to represent the tattoos shown in this film as in some way authentic (if it should be that they are so, it can only be by coincidence, or because of Viggo Mortensen's skills and dedication). --Tony Sidaway 00:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Interesting Facts 

message: When interviewed by Edward Douglas of ComingSoon.net, Cronenberg said, "About the tattooing, for example, that was in the script, but it wasn't as deep and it wasn't as central a metaphor as it later became. It was Viggo finding these books called "Russian Criminal Tattoo" which are fantastic and a documentary called "The Mark of Cain" which was made by a friend of his named Alix Lambert that we really understood this sub-culture of tattooing and Russian prisons and how it went back to Czarist days before the Soviet Union and how it evolved and how it emerges and how it shifted, fantastic stuff and very exciting and I sent this to Steve and said, "When you see this, when we do our next re-write, you're going to want to incorporate this, big time, into the script because it's fantastic material.""
John Anderson of Newsday interviewed Cronenberg and wrote, ""Viggo was very involved, not just as an actor trying to tailor his character, but in doing his research," the director said. "He came up with a book called 'Russian Criminal Tattoos' which was phenomenal. And there's also a documentary called 'The Mark of Cain,' which was made by a friend of his, Alix Lambert. She, somehow, got in to a maximum security Russian prison in 2000 and interviewed prisoners, who talked about the subculture of tattooing which has existed since czarist days ... a kind of secret society that's developed mostly through prisons. "The tattooing tells everything about you," he continued. "It's your passport, identity card - but more. It's a medical report, it tells what crimes you've committed, what your sexual orientation is, where you served time, how long, and where you might be in the hierarchy of criminals. "And woe be you if you lie about it, because they'll give you 20 minutes to get rid of the tattoo. And in prison, that pretty much means ripping off some skin. Or they'll kill you. So it's taken very seriously." Seriously enough to worry the patrons of a Russian restaurant in London, when Eastern Promises was shooting. Mortensen, trying to save the makeup man some work, had kept his tattoos on overnight. "I had them on my hands, my left hand mostly, old-school prison tattoos of a sort Russians would recognize," Mortensen said, in a telephone interview. "The poisoning of Viktor Yushchenko had happened while we were filming and that, understandably, increased their paranoia." "Yes, but once he told them he was working on a movie," Cronenberg said, "they said 'Oh, a movie,' and laughed and went about their business.""
Sara Schieron of Rotten Tomatoes interviewed Cronenberg and asked how Cronenberg and Mortensen work together. Cronenberg said, "No, it's a real collaboration, and it has very much to do with the kind of person Viggo is. I have been saying recently that with Viggo you don't just get a violin, you get a whole symphony orchestra. To give you an example, the tattoos, which are a crucial part of this movie, were alluded to in the script originally but just alluded to. Viggo found, while he was digging around and trying to get into this character, he found a book called Russian Criminal Tattoo, which is a fantastic book. Really recommend it. He also found a documentary by a friend of his named Alix Lambert which is called The Mark of Cain, which is also about tattooing in Russian prisons. He sent it to me. I sent it to (screenwriter) Steve Knight. I said, "When you read it, it's going to blow your mind, and when we do our next rewrite, you will, as I will, want to incorporate this as a central metaphor for the movie." So, that all came from Viggo. I don't know that we would have come across that otherwise. That's just one practical example."
An article in The Daily Telegraph says "Cronenberg says that during pre-production, Mortensen sent him a book on Russian criminal tattoos, which was filled with explanations of their meaning, as well as countless pictures. Several of these were then transferred to the movie, standing, says the director, as "intense metaphor and symbol". Mortensen's character sports 43 tattoos in all."
In an interview by Jordan Riefe of UGO.com, Viggo Mortensen said, "I have - I don't know how many - four dozen tattoos or something on my body in this movie, and a lot of them are pieces of songs or out of Russian literature, poetry or just sayings that people know about but that have more than one meaning. And there's one that was on a Russian prisoner.  Actually, I saw it twice; once on someone's torso and once on his leg, I think. But anyway, I have it on my back. It says, 'The important thing is to remain human,' in Russian. And to the people that had those tattoos, mainly I think the important thing is to remain human means be your own man. Take it like a man. Don't respect authority, be a tough bastard and don't forget, keep your dignity. It's all that, but it also has another meaning, in the face of this hideous existence for people and very severe way of life. It was almost like that was something I remembered or I thought of a lot, that phrase. For Nikolai, that's sort of a guiding principle, in the end, strange as it might seem at first, when you meet the guy. The important thing is to remain human in the face of all this."
I saw a documentary on the Russian Mafiya's tattoo system. Fascinating stuff, but does anybody think we should list the meaning of the tattoos shown in the movie. Of course, we'd have to get it well sourced (the article on criminal tattoos is just okay, but it certainly doesn't include much of the good detail that exists out there). Support and constructive criticism would be appreciated. MwNNrules (talk) 23:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, as long as you're doing that, I might as well put the mention of tattoos back into the lead. This is because the lead is merely a summary of the article, and while the section remains detailing the use of tattoos, the lead should reflect this. I know they're an incidental point, but they do appear to have been seized upon for some real-word comment. Steve T  • C 00:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I expect that somewhere we have an article on such tattoos. Find it.  Add relevant information to that article. Cite that article under "see also" in this one.  Eastern Promises is, first, last and everywhere in between, a work of fiction.  It is not a documentary. It is not a treatise on tattoos worn by the Russian mafia.  We must be careful not to represent the tattoos shown in this film as in some way authentic (if it should be that they are so, it can only be by coincidence, or because of Viggo Mortensen's skills and dedication). --Tony Sidaway 00:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: More from the headlines [[User:Erik|Erik]] posted

message: I've moved the Plot section to the bottom of the article. --Pixelface (talk) 02:09, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see someone has reverted it. I was considering doing that myself, but figured I'd wait to see the general reaction. I am not surprised. It looked very odd. Marc Shepherd (talk) 17:47, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a thread about it at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Films/Style_guidelines#Re-ordering_sections. The Plot section is the only section in the article without citations (besides the Cast section). And the plot isn't real world information anyway. --Pixelface (talk) 02:03, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is indeed a thread, but no consensus to do so. Marc Shepherd (talk) 12:50, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well not on every film article, no. --Pixelface (talk) 13:34, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Earlier I moved the Plot section below the Production section because I think the Production section should come before it in this article. Is that better than having the Plot section at the very bottom? --Pixelface (talk) 13:38, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Either is okay with me.  The plot section is often the first named section of an article on a book or film, and in my opinion this is less than ideal. --Tony Sidaway 14:19, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Plot

message: It is mentint at least two times Turkish in the text. Why?
They are not Turkish but Chechen or Kazachs.
I am talking about knive fight in the spa and barber shop.
71.99.125.232 (talk) 05:42, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the barber and his retarded nephew are supposed to be Turkish, while it is correct that all the mafia types are Russian or Chechen. --RenniePet (talk) 05:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish?? 

message: The rewritten plot is good. However, an important detail is missing: Nikolai receives the same tatoos as Kirill. Could this be added (either now, if there's easy consensus, or after protection is lifted?) Jd2718 (talk) 14:56, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plot detail 

message: The plot summary is now enormous and minutely detailed, which really isn't on for an encyclopedia.  We should give a picture of the significant plot events, not a blow-by-blow account.
Compare the current version  with one from early October .  The current version has over 1000 words, the earlier version just 400.  Is anything really significant missing from the latter?  I strongly suggest that we consider reverting the plot summary to something more closely resembling that concise, but still informative, version. --Tony Sidaway 16:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Size of plot summary

message: Someone recently added "Academy Award nominated" to the first sentence of the intro. Is this justified, considering that it is Viggo Mortensen who got the nomination, not the film as such? --RenniePet (talk) 15:24, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If any person who worked on the film received an Academy Award nomination, I think it's typical to say the film is Academy Award nominated — although I don't have a strong opinion about that phrase in the lead. --Pixelface (talk) 01:00, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There's been some small debate about this recently. My own feeling is that the standard description of the film should come first in order to provide context, with the nomination mention towards the end of the lead. "Academy Award-nominated" doesn't really provide much information. Far better to flesh it out a little with something along the lines of "Mortensen was nominated for Best Actor at the 80th Academy Awards." I'll punch-up the lead a little later on if there are no objections. Steve T  • C 08:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, that's done. I think it gives a much better overview of the article, including the numerous awards and nominations. Let us know if it's not to everyone's satisfaction. All the best, Steve T  • C 09:26, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edits to the lead look great. I know IMDb is not considered a reliable source for much information, but I do consider it reliable for information regarding release dates. --Pixelface (talk) 22:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Academy Award nominated?

message: Isn't "Canadian crime drama mystery thriller feature film" a little too specific?  (Actually, just about the ugliest wording I've seen in a while...) --JD79 (talk) 13:59, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Consider it sorted. All the best, Steve T  • C 14:18, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Nuts. I was hoping for "Canadian/British romantic violent crime drama mystery thriller motorcycle feature film". --RenniePet (talk) 17:11, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Genre

message: I think there should be a citation for this part of the introductory paragraph, or it should be removed, because there are definitely [quite major] elements of the depiction of the Russian criminal underworld that are NOT accurate. For example, the fact that thieves-in-law (vory) were directly involved in sex trafficking. This is extremely frowned upon in the thief code, and would probably have cost them their status.
Furthermore, there have always been extremely few Chechen thieves-in-law, as Chechens prefer to deal by their own codes, and do not recognize the thief code. In fact, the last Chechen thief-in-law was assassinated in the early 90s (I do not recall his name, the exact date and circumstances, but I can look them up, if need be).
74.74.101.130 (talk) 00:11, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm left wondering how Chechens in Moscow, London, New York, Los Angeles etc. would interact with "Vory v zakone".  It seems perfectly reasonable that Chechens could operate by their own rules in Chechnya if not throughout the North Caucasus.  In Moscow, London, New York, etc. I would expect Chechens to be outnumbered by other generic "Russians" (including Georgians, Azeris, Armenians, Jews, etc.).  In that environment, wouldn't Chechens have to pay a certain amount of respect to V v Z?  Otherwise wouldn't there be open warfare?  --LADave (talk) 21:08, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Realistic depiction of Russian criminal underworld? 

message: Should we add a section to the article regarding the sequel? I wasn't aware of the possibilities of a sequel until yesterday when I found the following article with Vincent Cassel who plays Kirill in the film.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Florez411 (talk • contribs) 16:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Added a new section to the article on the sequel. There's been suggestions of a sequel for some time, but this is the first time I've seen one of the major players confirm the likelihood of it. yorkshiresky (talk) 17:03, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sequel 

message: I feel almost dumb for asking this, I just watched the movie and it said in the article it is well known for its plot twists? which are those exactly? I never noticed one. I guess you could call the baby's father is actually the mafia boss, but to me that wasn't that big of twist. It couldn't have been that Viggo's character was actually undercover when that was obvious 20 min into the movie. Was I just really good at predicting the plot or am I completly missing the point of the movie?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.10.97.243 (talk) 01:54, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  twist ending? 

message: Did any professional reviewers comment on this film's dreadfully convoluted plot?
For instance everything hinges on the nurse doing something no nurse would do - in effect steal a dead patient's property - the diary. This should have been turned over to the police as evidence. Then it involves her trusting someone she doesn't know to translate the thing. And her own uncle withholding information he gleaned from having read the diary.
Montalban (talk) 23:18, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dreadfully convoluted plot 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Eastern Promises. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Are we meant to believe these gangsters and the actual Russian type mafia are Christians?
Notice how often Christian symbols are associated with bad behaviour in films. Who makes such films? Any guesses?
:Most countries in western Europe, which formerly constituted Christendom, are now secular states, with no official religion. Therefore, millions of people will have been brought up within the remnants of Christian culture, bearing Christian names, etc., without it meaning anything to the people themselves. You can express yourself freely in a secular state; unlike many Islamic states, which are autocratic theocracies, where you are not free to show Muslims in a bad light.
:Nuttyskin (talk) 00:51, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christians?