Talk:Grandpa Son Gohan

message: Well, it turns out the poll wasn't a good idea by some. In any case, I think I'm gonna request the name change to Grandpa Son Gohan now since it seems that users' JzG and Super Atomic SUIT didn't even give actual reasons pertaining as to why the move shouldn't be so. Majin Vegeta and I have given our good reasons. Any other real comments, concerns, or discrepencies from anyone before I actually request the move/rename? Really, why shouldn't the move be from Grandpa Gohan → Grandpa Son Gohan? Come on, any other thoughts here people before I request it? (Me | The Article) 16:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What the hell? Discussions don't last for two days, they're supposed to be at least five. And when you don't have a clear winner, you don't change the name anyway. We had two supports and two opposes. Since when does that determine that the article should be moved? Honestly, I have no idea what the hell what you were thinking when you moved the article, but I'm changing it back until the discussion lasts for a while longer and we have a clear winner. // PoeticDecay 20:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't close the survey. It was someone else. Besides, no one else disagreed. What do you vote for? (Me | The Article) 21:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Seems that he didn't bother arguing back so I'm reclosing this poll/discussion. (Me | The Article) 00:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment on his real name (Grandpa Son Gohan) 

message: What the heck? You have three oppose votes to two support votes, yet you decide to move the page anyway? JRP 03:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is moved back again. Don't start a poll and then ignore the outcome to suit your own views. This was a controversial move. Was it even listed on WP:RM? (I didn't see it archived there, but I may have missed it.) JRP 03:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh gosh... THERE WAS NO MORE POLL! Simple. It was closed by User:Yuser31415 and no one else argued about the move, so that's why it was done. (Me | The Article) 04:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not like you really gave anyone enough time to respond, especially for folks that did respond to the poll and wouldn't have thought they needed to look again immediately. As it is, this is a apparently a clear case of you not getting the result you hoped for and then deciding to go ahead and do it anyway. That's not very wiki-friendly, is it? JRP 16:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dude, I've already said my reason for it. NO ONE else argued a reason about it. Except for you and someone else. First off, get over it, and let's discuss it at the bottom, k? (Me | The Article) 18:05, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Move without concensus

message: ----
I don't want to say this twice. Please, use standard methods of discussion instead of opening a poll. Relevant policy is WP:NOT a democracy, and the essay m:Polls are evil applies here too. No polls, please. Debate and discuss. Contact me if you disagree with my decision to close this. Yuser31415 20:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested Move 

message: :Add  # Support  or  # Oppose  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
====Survey - Support votes====
#As I've explained immediately above, this article needs some disambiguation from Son Gohan, everyone seems happy with "Grandpa" (used in speech by Goku in the series, used in credits), we need only add the family name now. --DesireCampbell 16:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: #As I've explained immediately above, this article needs some disambiguation from Son Gohan, everyone seems happy with "Grandpa" (used in speech by Goku in the series, used in credits), we need only add the family name now. --DesireCampbell 16:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - Support votes

message: # Read above. // PoeticDecay 16:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - Oppose votes

message: *Burdock is used in all subtitles by Daimao - Later in your discussion, you are very quick to point out just how many English language dubs there are, a statement which I agree with. Yet you imply that there is a single authoriative subtitle track that we should trust? Daimao does excellent subtitles, but there are difficult decisions to be made in translating. To trust a single authorative subtitle track, when the majority of fans don't read subtitles (Wikipedia is not a forum for otaku) is a little odd. 
*You keep saying that WP:Anime says to use official romanized names. But, you pick and choose which official names you care to listen to. Mr. Satan, I will grant you, but to suggest that "Bardock" is more official than "Burdock" is silly. There are far more official publications that romanize it the other way. Again, an application of the guideline through your own judgement filter.
*When you say I refuse to acknowledge the Japanese translated script available on every Funimation DVD, that's untrue. But these are also inconsistent. (And the implication that they are the only and true translations is absurd.) Take a character like "Guru". The subtitles switch between calling him "Guru" and "Great Elder". Which name should we use? Thankully, we haven't had that discussion yet. Yes, this is a good resource, but it's not a one-stop-shop.
*As for which FUNi dubs, you seem to imply that there are more than one and a half. (Original Saiyan/Namek saga and the cut and uncut versions of the later dubs.)
*I also know that Bardock isn't in the title of the Japanese movie, but again you are being an otaku. Most English-speakers wouldn't ever look up the title via its Japanese name (not to mention how many variant translations there are). The important thing is that in the official (per WP:Anime) FUNimation dub, it's spelled that way. Most English speaking non-Dragon Ball experts are familiar with him by that spelling. 
In conclusion, it's clear that I'm still more upset by Bardock than about this. And these are such minor changes anyway. I want to pick names for articles that are accessible to non-experts while still making sense. Maybe Daimao subtitles are the way to go for this, I don't know that I would fight that. But most important is that we have names that are relevant and useful to all of the non-expert fans out there, that never read subtitles, that primarily get their fix from TV and a few DVDs. 
You, and Power, and I need to remember that we're in the minority with a heavy burden: to write and edit informative Dragon Ball articles for the majority.  JRP 14:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (applauses/cheers) ;) Well said, Desire. I believe you've proven your point very well. Power level (Dragon Ball) 17:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Response to Desire

message: I have a general reply to the above discussion.  We're talking about WP:COMMONNAME, which is a guideline, which comprises the "rationale and specifics" of one sentence of WP:NAME, which is a policy.  That sentence is:
:Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things.
That link points to a section of WP:NAME containing links to naming convention guidelines for a wide variety of topics.  If you scroll down below that list, there's a list of proposed and "under construction" subject-specific naming convention guidelines.  I don't see WP:Anime listed in either section.
Maybe it would be a good idea to work out a consensus at WP:Anime, where you can take all of these examples into consideration, and then if you can get all (or most of) the articles in the project to be named consistently, according to whatever scheme, you might have a new guideline on your hands. -GTBacchus(talk) 09:07, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Long-term solution

message: I've gone ahead and moved the page, per the above discussion.  If somebody was waiting for the page to move before they spoke up, I guess we'll from them soon.
I strongly recommend that you get your naming conventions at WP:Anime hammered out in a way that enjoys consensus support among project members, and propose it as a Naming Convention Guideline at Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Proposed guidelines and guidelines under construction.  It doesn't even have to be finished in order to list it there, and that will get us one step closer to avoiding such drawn out conflicts over the names of anime characters in the future.
Thanks, everyone who participated in the discussion. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:29, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's resolved until somebody speaks up and says it isn't.  I hope we get some definite naming guidelines for Anime articles before that happens. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Shouldn't the user and talk pages be moved protected just in case Bacchus (Like Mr. Satan's)? Power level (Dragon Ball) 00:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, yeah. I guess it is moved protected anyways so it won't matter. Power level (Dragon Ball) 01:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not "move protected" as such, but I went ahead and made an edit to Grandpa Gohan, so it can't be moved back now without an administrator.  It's a little trick I use sometimes. ;) -GTBacchus(talk) 06:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool. I just did the same for Bardock (in case of any unsuspected move). Power level (Dragon Ball) 15:34, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

text: It was a smart move, both of you deserve an A+, do you think this page should be archived?--Dark Dragon Flame 00:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a bit big now; archiving wouldn't hurt. -GTBacchus(talk) 00:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Page moved

message: - See -->>Kanzenban # 08 (Uranai Baba & Goku / "Grandpa" Son Gohan) on that page (it links to a manga cover, I think)
 - I couldn't get the original Japanese page to open for "Grandpa Son Gohan" (his main article strangely titled "Grandfather? Sato Sky") to link correctly here since the link was always being broken or redirecting to some Dragonball motorola thing (maybe someone can fix that and place the original page link somewhere below)
 - somewhat a profile for Grandpa Gohan
 - and as I've already shown before, on the bottom left of Saka Osamu, (the seiyū for Grandpa Gohan and Son Gohan) has the Japanese written name for the Japanese DBZ/DBGT ending credits for "Grandpa Gohan" as 孫悟飯じいさん for the Grandpa Gohan character. Firstly, 孫 悟飯 is translated in our English to "Son Gohan" and you can easily confirm this on Grandpa Gohan's main article and on this guy's main article. じいさん can be translated several ways in romaji: ojjisan, jiisan, no jiisan or no ojiisan, etc. - in the English language it translates to either "Grandpa" or "Grandfather". But since the japanese writing is written there together with 孫悟飯 like so:"孫悟飯じいさん", it directly translates into romaji as: Son Gohan no ojiisan, Son Gohan no jiisan, Son Gohan jiisan, etc. Since we're also going by Common English names and not just "use romanizations if possible", here's a sensible conclusion for the perfect name: the translation can be combined to either "'Grandfather Son Gohan" or (the most notable)-->>"Grandpa Son Gohan". 
:In this case, Grandpa Son Gohan seems like the best choice we have here. Reason being, he is only referred to by Goku as "Grandpa!" (of course, Goku never calls him "Grandpa Gohan"!) almost everyone else in the Dragon World either calls him that or "Son Gohan" or says to Goku like this: "Goku, your grandpa [grandfather] Gohan..." whatever... I've said my reasons and showed some website sources, is there anything else I'm missing here to eplain further? Power level (Dragon Ball) 16:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Website sources with a title of "Grandpa Son Gohan" in it