Talk:Saddam Hussein/Archive 3

message: Can anyone confirm the text in the article stating that Saddam will be tried in an Iraqi court under Iraqi law? I would think they'd ship him to the Hague... --Dante Alighieri 18:05, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Saddam's Capture (& Trial)

message: I think the articles concerning Saddam Hussein can be used in the future as a Wikipedia object lesson on "what not to do."  There is no doubt they need an overhaul.  The fact is they've needed an overhaul for quite some time. However the energy and zeal of some users here to radically overhaul them immediately reminds me uneasily of the behavior of some government censors to completely rewrite history after the occurrence of a regime change, and I'm concerned we might go too far in the other direction in our zeal.
These articles as they stand are a reminder of the incredible nearsighted POV inserted into writing by people who are blinded by propaganda (on both sides). I therefore would strenuously object to the outright deletion of any of them; this behavior should be documented in the article histories.
I hope that the article on Ba'athist propaganda techniques is written, and that all of these photographs are used, that the explanatory captions are added, and that they aren't removed again in the pursuit of some agenda.  I should also mention that in the case of the two cited above, whose "copyright" (such as it is) almost certainly lies with Saddam's government, mention of copyright in a case like this borders on the inane.
I've read Adam Carr's rewrite proposal and think it's quite good in that it covers the man, as opposed to the "evil genius" or the "diabolical madman." As with all drafts, though, it needs work; there's still a lot that pertains more to an article on the Ba'athist government than to a biography of a person (or, at least, more emphasis on his personal involvement is called for).
I've taken the liberty of adding a photo to that draft which was removed from the present article with nary a peep in June (it was at that point I gave up hope on this article).  Much as I like the draft, I hope that objective material that has been (and hopefully, will continue to be) removed can be incorporated into sub-articles.  These writings represent the work of dozens of contributors over the period of a year or more, and deserve better than to be simply swept under the rug after the fashion of some authoritarian states. - Hephaestos 16:20, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of this article 

message: Is there a page that discusses the consequences of Saddam's capture.  There are at least two immediate significant consequences: 1. Saddam will not be able to just vanish and become the Arab leader that defied the West and was never caught, and 2. Saddam was caught without any resistance, preventing the martyr status that he possibly could have achieved. OneVoice 01:38, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: That would belong in an article on his personality cult, which does not exist yet. But I would shy away from bring up such points. Few of us have sufficient expertise to address these matters. This is something for, say, a cultural anthropologist with expertise in the Arab world to address. 172 01:44, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

text: Adam, the new article is far superior.  Replace the current one with it. --Robert Merkel 03:12, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

text: Eventually put up the new version. But it's not ready now. Even if I had never heard of Wiki, I'd be able to tell you that a profession historian put together Adam's article, but that that historian is specialized in any area but the Middle East. The distinction between "Saddam the secular ruler" and "Saddam the Islamist ruler" is way too rigid. With an organization almost based on the Stalin analogy, the indigenous roots cry out for attention. However, restoring a few paragraphs from the old article would likely correct these problems. BTW, I mean no offense. After all, the Middle East is multiple layers away from my areas of expertise as well. 172 14:33, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, Here's how to resolve the disputes between Adam and some of the other users over the 2003 war: path dependence. If this strikes anyone as coming out of nowhere, run some LexisNexis searches or go to the online JSTOR archives. Even google and yahoo searches would be helpful. 172 15:07, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Aftermath of his capture

message: VV, Hector, RickK:
This is getting ridiculous. I'm protecting this page, forcing you proxy warriors to discuss content on the talk page, not by competing over who's fastest at reverting one's reversions. You people may not like each other, but try to keep the ideology and personal attacks out of your discussions for once. 172 04:35, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: More of your demeaning crap.  This is not about ideology or personal attacks, this is about removing inappropriate text from an encyclopedia article. -- VV 07:10, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

text: I've been alerted to the countless Hector vs. VV/RickK edit wars, not the conflicts between Wik and RickK being alluded to above. I figured that Wik was acting as another sysop here to cool things down, just as Kingturtle. Is he another party to this dispute? If that's the case, I'll remove Wik's version and restore a version of the article predating Hector's first edit to this page. Should I put up an older version? 172 05:13, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Protection notice

message: All, right, let's discuss content issues:
*"The US continued sending arms and money to him however. ".  Embedded in a paragraph about Saddam's killing of Kurds by poison gas, between "Iraqi troops, on orders from Saddam to stop a Kurdish uprising, attacked the Kurdish town of Halabjah with a mix of poison gas and nerve agents killing 5000 people, mostly women and children" and "Dissenting opinions dispute the numbers and have said the incident was actually a battle in the Iran-Iraq war ".  This sentence doesn't belong here.  If we want to discuss supposed US support of Hussein, put it in a separate section or a separate article.  But also substantiate it. RickK 05:05, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds great! This is much more convincing than calling him an "anti-American vandal." Now we can give Hector some time to respond before we unprotect the page. 172 05:19, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume you're referring to me, which means you didn't even read what I wrote that you responded to, where I laid out a similar case.  As for Hector being a vandal, I have made my case for that already.  Anyway, Hector's past behavior is relevant in evaluating his current edits, even if he isn't to the point of being banned yet; duh.  And once again this looks like a policy violation on your part, since you're protecting a page which you earlier reverted.  And you have a lot of gall asking me to apologize (for seeking third-party intervention?) after the way you've talked to me.  It's obvious the new text should go; if I put something as flagrantly biased in the "History" article, I doubt it would last a heartbeat. -- VV 07:01, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll send this to the mailing list and see what they think about your proposals. 172 08:07, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

text: Why is this page still protected?  Why is this obviously out-of-place sentence (as many have explained) still present, especially now that "Hector"'s intentions are clear (see wikc and User:Richardchilton)? -- VV 23:59, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Content issues

message: There are too many photos on this page. The purple-tie photo and the photo with Qusay are uneeded. When a photo has a caption "another photo" it is a good indication that photo is unnecessary. user:J.J.
:I came to this talk page just to say that, but found that J.J was ahead of me. We can start by getting rid of the Saddam w/ Rumsfeld and Saddam w/ Chirac pics, which were probably POV additions anyway. Let's also work toward relating the placement of the photos to the content of the article. In some portions of the article, photos taken recently are placed alongside content dealing with the '60s and '70s. 172 07:51, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Saddam with X" pictures help dispel that "he was always a monster" misconception that certain parties have been promoting, with some success. We only need one "formal portrait" and at most one "propaganda example". But for an article of this length and general interest, 10 images are not unreasonable; if we had this density of illustration in every article, Encarta and Britannica might as well close up shop, nobody would ever look at anything but WP. Stan 19:20, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It's nice to have photos to back up an article, but I really don't think that profuse illustration can compensate for insufficient or poorly written/organized text.Matt gies 08:07, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Too many photos

message: WhisperToMe, 
Not that I'm diminishing your efforts, but I decided to remove the added pics. Although this is just a stylistic preference, I'm among the users who don't want to be inundated by too many Saddam propaganda pics at once, especially if the they're only loosely related to the sections in which they'e placed.172 01:32, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps we can hold a straw poll asking whether or not they prefer additional pics. Given the comments on the talk page now, more users seem to be agreeing with Adam, who favors even fewer pics than I do. Let's wait for other users to chime in. If other people start clamoring to have this article plastered with pics, I'll accept being in the minority and move on. 172 01:54, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I regard it not neutral if there is a picture with Chirac but none with Rumsfeld. Get-back-world-respect 23:01, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The pictures

message: I'm removing the picture of Rumsfeld. **I'm** not saying that it was necessarily a partisan addition, but with all due respect it'll likely be regarded as a partisan addition, thus rendering the text less credible among many readers. For the sake of full disclosure, Perhaps I'll be accused of being inconsistent, given that I favor including a picture of Chirac. But IMHO the Chirac photo serves a more readily apparent nonpartisan function. In this picture Saddam himself is the one in the photo who is a guest traveling abroad. Though I'm not a Middle East specialist by any means, it's noteworthy now that in the period before the Iraq Iran War, the domestic political situation in Iraq, in addition to the international environment, lent itself to a such a visit by Saddam, then Vice President, to a major Western power. IMHO, it'll allow many readers to grasp the stark change in his international image over time, and even the context of Iraq's domestic state of affairs. In contrast, I doubt that the Saddam w/ Rummy pic is nearly as fitting for bio piece, as it is saying noting implicitly about his image; in effect it's only making a point about U.S.-Iraqi relations during the war with Iran. And there's enough in the text to make that point w/out relying on a visual supplement. 172 00:12, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Since Hussein was already president when he met Rumsfeld I do not see why the picture is less important than the one when he was only Vice-President and met Chirac, especially given the context of the Iran-Contra Affair, where the Reagan administration broke its own embargo and traded weapons to Iran. I do not see why a visual supplement is more appropriate for documenting the Chirac than the Rumsfeld meeting. Get-back-world-respect 00:21, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with most of this, given that I am **not** saying that "the [Rumsfeld] picture is less important than the one when he was only Vice-President and met Chirac." I'm fully aware that his meeting with Rumsfeld was certainly a hell of a lot more "important" (assuming that this means ways one can go about surmising/weighing historical significance). But the merits of a visual supplement simply don't directly correspond with historical significance. To make a really obtuse understatement for the sake of summing up my point, although FDR warrants more attention than these squatters in California, the Great Depression article, the article snubs FDR and goes with the squatters. Sometimes pics are included to say something about the period, as opposed to what's specifically going on in the pic. In short, I was saying that the Chirac pic said a lot about the period as well.172 00:41, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

text: Good observation. In this particular case I think that it makes more sense to stress the guest rather than the host. General readers will see Saddam in Paris meeting with Chirac and likely think, "Wow, I didn't know Saddam could leave the country without worrying about a coup or an extradition to a war crimes tribunal." They'll see Rumsfeld and Saddam and likely think, "Wow, is that really Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam?" IMHO, the pic goes better in the Rumsfeld article. I wouldn't oppose adding the Saddam/Rummy meeting to the Rumsfeld article. 172 08:01, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The picture is already in the Rumsfeld article and I disagree that the picture with Chirac is more important than the one with Rumsfeld. In the latter case Hussein was already President and the visit of Reagan's special envoy to the Middle East is particularly interesting given the Reagan government secretly traded weapons to Iran AND Iraq. Including a picture with Hussein and Chirac but none of the other numerous meetings between Hussein and important foreign politicians is not neutral and in my opinion dangerous given the anti-French prejudices among many US citizens. Get-back-world-respect 00:43, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: First, your edit summary stated that three users support reinserting the picture. Yet so far, you are the only one explaining your reasoning on the talk page (Hephaestos did not take a stance). So with all due respect, it is still just a disagreement between the two of us. We should reasonably resolve this disagreement, as opposed to making this into a polling game. Second, I don't understand why you keep stating that you disagree with the argument that 'the picture with Chirac is more important than the one with Rumsfeld.' I am **not** making that argument. Instead, I have been stating that the pic w/ Chirac supplements a bio piece in ways that the pic w/ Rumsfeld does not. Finally, IMHO, basing written content and visual supplements on the dynamics of contending French and U.S. nationalisms during the 2003 Iraq war is opening up a Pandora's Box. Any minute now, the U.S. nationalist users, such as Veriverily, could pop in and start ranting and raving about the asymmetry in written coverage between Franco-Iraq relations and U.S.-Iraq relations. After all, the latter gets far more written attention here, as it does generally does in almost all accounts. Instead, let's consider the merits of a visual supplement based on where it is placed in the article and what it adds to or detracts from a biographical, encyclopedic entry about Saddam. In other words, let's consider every picture as a separate issue, especially if the pictures are placed in different sections of the article. 172 01:43, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

text: 172, if someone shows up "ranting and raving about the asymmetry in written coverage between Franco-Iraq relations and U.S.-Iraq relations" he may improve on the written coverage. I am not afraid of VeriVerily, we may not agree in many cases about politics but I have no major problems with him. I do not "rant and rave" but I do not accept that there is a picture with Chirac and none with the numerous other important politicians Hussein met. Two other users included the picture as well, so it is a disagreement between three others and you. You have removed the image four times now and are going to break the three edit rule if you do it again. Get-back-world-respect 01:59, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm surprised to see you trying to employ these strongarm tactics to make a partisan addition. Or perhaps we're on the verge of starting a fight just because of a communication problem. Why don't you tell me where you think I'm coming from so that I'm better able to respond to your concerns? Do you think that my stance is motivated by the anti-French prejudices and U.S. nationalist chauvinism typical in the wake of the Iraq war?  172 02:13, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It is irrelevant to the article where you are coming from. Further above you had stated the Rumsfeld picture was no partisan addition. As I explained twice I do not regard it neutral if there is a picture with Chirac and none with other important politicians. Maybe we have to agree to differ here, but others share my opinion that the picture is worth including. Get-back-world-respect 02:19, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, have your pic then. But it would've been nice not to get the hasty and emotional arguments typical of some partisan users whose names can go unmentioned. 172 02:28, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

text: Please respond to the comments that I have left you on User talk:WhisperToMe. You're only responding to my edit summary, and of course this isn't going to say much. 172 13:06, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

text: I think JJ is saying it better than I am. This picture was all but forgotten until 2003, and I think we can find a better Iraq-Iran War related pic. Rumsfled isn't even mentioned in the text in this section. And the U.S. role isn't even mentioned in the article until the section discussing tensions with Kuwait and the invasion. Considering how rarely he has traveled abroad, it's the one out of the two that would conceivably belong in the article for reasons not inspired by the Franco-U.S. rift over the ongoing war. 172 21:10, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

text: Sure, I guess. If we're going to have the pic, it might as well be the better one. I'm not sure how to find it, though. 172 11:59, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Rumsfeld pic

message: Could someone explain me what this is supposed to mean? Before it said "poor", could it be that someone meant "impoverished"? Get-back-world-respect 19:58, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be my guess anyway. - Hephaestos|§ 20:00, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Improvised family