Talk:Horace Mann School/Archive 1

message: Mayor's cup is a tournament which every NYC high school team participates in.  So obviously the winner is the best. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.247.156.10 (talk • contribs) .
But I was wondering if it was a national competition?  And if not, do the NY teams rate highly at a national level?  If it's just some local cup why should readers of wikipedia care? David D. (Talk) 00:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  mayor's cup 

message: I understand that some people have been calling for the removal of Harvard, Princeton, and Yale from the recognition section. However, these are the only schools the ranking pays attention to. Writing that the article speaks about "good colleges and universities" is simply wrong. We need to get the POV out of this article by sticking to objective facts as much as possible. The WSJ article was about Ivy League Schools plus Pomona, Stanford & Duke minus Columbia, I guess if you want that included it can go in there as well, but again just saying "good colleges and universities" is imprecise for the WSJ and flat out wrong for the Worth. We shouldn't be removing HYP just because someone wants it removed. - 
:Judging from your edits on your talk page you're here to play hard ball. I would draw your attention to the comments made on the talk page for one HM's IP numbers. . Basically personal knowledge is not verifiable even if it is factual. 
:In answer to your comment above, there are two cites for the comment that HM graduates attend "prestigeous universities and colleges"; note it did not say good. The first says its a feeder school for Yale, Princton and Yale (note that cite is not from the worth magazine itself but is citing the worth magazine) The second is a list of all the schools that the graduates have attended in the last five years.
:Many editors on this page feel the need to glorify this school by association. Is it not well known enough as its own institution? This page should not read like PR page published by HM.  That's what happens when alumni contribute.  Also it should not be a list of trivia and gossip, that's what happens when some current students (including those from Dalton and other rival schools) contribute. Finally it should be accurate and we already have an example with respect to the Model UN team above, of information being added that is contradictory.  With unverifiable material the safest thing to do is delete it. A known fact is not necessarily verifiable, sorry. David D. (Talk) 05:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What I wrote on David D.'s talk page...pertinent to this as well 

message: :(the following copied from User Talk:Dystopos for reference by editors of this article)
"I live in Birmingham, Alabama. I intend to spend some time making the articles about Birmingham rich and useful. I will also contribute to other articles as I have the opportunity and resources."
What led you to edit the Horace Mann article? Without trying to sound like an asshole, I don't think your comments have been helpful at all.  I'm sure, however, that if I tried to edit things I didn't know anything about on your high school's page I'd sound like an idiot too.  But I'd ask that before you edit the page again you go ahead to the website: www.Horacemann.org, read up on HM on the internet, and read "Horace Mann, a History" before you edit again.  This isn't meant to be personal, I'm going to be posting it to everyone else who has been making unhelpful contributions due to their lack of knowledge.  I don't insist that everyone who edit be an alum, but I think it's fair to ask that those who edit for substance know something about what they are talking about.  
Respectfully submitted,
Barrington Carter
::You'll probably notice, if you examine the page history, that I have not attempted to add information about the school where I could not find a verifiable source. I have approached the page as someone who has an interest in Wikipedia. I believe that my participation in the Horace Mann article has been helpful in improving it per Wikipedia's standards and policies. The knowledge that an alum would have that is otherwise unverifiable constitutes original research, against which Wikipedia has a policy. The perspective that an alum would have that is otherwise disputable is a biased point of view, against which Wikipedia also has a policy. You are welcome to use Horace Mann's website and publications to correct any errors you find on the page. Castigating me helps no one. --Dystopos 06:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great Barrington, are you a Horace Mann alumnus/ae?  If so why do you identify yourself as theblacklarl who attended Fordham High School? Please clarify.  This may help people understand you point of view in editing this article. Wikster72 06:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry for the confusion.  I was pointing out that this is the same user who used to post as . David D. (Talk) 06:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats what I was afraid of.  Wasn't theblacklarl blocked previously, but has recently regained editing rights?  I believe that this is a violation of Wikipedia's sockpuppet rule?  I suggest that we take any edits, or suggestions by GreatBarrington with some doubt and extra scrutiny.  Hopefully, he has learned his lesson about innapropriate edits.  Wikster72 16:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional advice from Barrington Carter pertinent mainly to this page 

message: The article stated that the tennis team had won several Mayor's Cup championships. The varsity boys and girls tennis team pages at www.horacemann.org don't list past championships and the Mayor's Cup is an individual singles and doubles event. If a team championship is awarded based on successful individual competitors, then provide a source for the statement. --Dystopos 00:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I found sources to back up the tennis claim.  Its a bit confusing.  One of the sources is from the year before the team won its last Mayor's Cup, so it isn't complete but the other source has information regarding the most recent victory. Wikster72 01:16, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *For what it's worth, these sources don't necessarily have to be indexed by Google. If the results are published in the Times, for example, you could cite the relevant print editions. The librarian or the athletic department may keep a clipping file which would ease the search. --Dystopos 03:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, but I figured something at least temporarily was better than nothing.  I will look into simpler, more compact, sources. Wikster72 05:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tennis 

message: I'm not sure if JSA deserves such a large place here.  All of my fellow HMers will know that JSA does not have the same prestige at HM that Model UN does.  Not going to get into specifics here but we all know the reputation of what happens on JSA trips.  I mean seriously...most of the kids who end up in JSA are the ones who couldnt get invited on the Model UN trips....-J (comment left by User:AznNYCer212)
* This isn't the place to wage your petty infighting. Use the talk page to collaborate on improving the article. See especially Wikipedia:Civility --Dystopos 04:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  JSA 

message: There is a disagreement about whether characterizing the school as "elite" in the introductory paragraph violates the policy on neutral point of view.
==="Elite" is a characterization and does not belong in the introduction===
Users who endorse this position (sign with ~~~~)
* Without a sanctioning body to determine objectively which schools are "elite" (and in what context), the adjective can only be a characterization. It may be a common view. It may be a view held by rational people. But it is still a point of view. (See above) --Dystopos 04:58, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I dont much like the word "elite" here but surely it is appropriate to give some idea in the intro of the status of this particular school. Thats just explanatory not POV. Otherwise the casual reader like me has to read between the lines. It is surely not POV to find some form of words to distinguish Harvard, Oxford, the Sorbonne, etc from other universities. Why not something here? Jameswilson 03:13, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFC on "elite" in introduction 

message: Users who endorse this position (sign with ~~~~)
* Without a sanctioning body to determine objectively which schools are "elite" (and in what context), the adjective can only be a characterization. It may be a common view. It may be a view held by rational people. But it is still a point of view. (See above) --Dystopos 04:58, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Elite" is a characterization and does not belong in the introduction

message: ::I dont much like the word "elite" here but surely it is appropriate to give some idea in the intro of the status of this particular school. Thats just explanatory not POV. Otherwise the casual reader like me has to read between the lines. It is surely not POV to find some form of words to distinguish Harvard, Oxford, the Sorbonne, etc from other universities. Why not something here? Jameswilson 03:13, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Other positions/Outside views

message: From http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0375752080/103-9413957-9216660?v=glance&n=283155
Editorial Reviews
Review
"College counselors from such elite schools as Dalton, Horace Mann, and Chapin...agree that Leana is one of the best!"        --New York magazine 
From http://www.educationnext.org/unabridged/2001sp/levin.html
In my city, New York, elite private schools such as Dalton, Horace Mann,....
*These would be additional characterizations of Horace Mann as elite, not evidence. As I said above, HM's status as elite may be a rational view. It may be a widely-shared view, but it is a point of view, and one that, without objective criteria, is disputable and therefore not neutral. --Dystopos 02:08, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I was referencing what Fbv65edel and Dystopos wrote above not anything you had written. I am still interested why you feel 'elite' needs to be in the opening paragraph?  Especially since there is a mention in the recognition section. David D. (Talk) 02:22, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional evidence of HM being elite... 

message: The reason I moved the "recognition" to the introduction is because that is the proper place to establish the position of the school relative to other schools (i.e. to establish notability). There's no reason to cite articles where a journalist refers to HM as "elite" in passing when there are perfectly-good quantifiable and verifiable surveys that bring the reader to the same conclusion without presenting a point of view. That leaves scant need for a "Recognition" section, which on its own seems like it fills a psychological rather than an encyclopedic need. --Dystopos 14:31, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with cutting the recognition section.  It really looks out of place. Since it seems to be HM students that are writing and defending this section one has to wonder why they feel the need? Possibly a psychological boost for self esteem? Who knows, but I agree that the front section looks quite good at the moment. David D. (Talk) 17:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia can handle change. --Dystopos 15:47, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: More to the point, the wikipedia motto appears to be Be Bold. David D. (Talk) 17:24, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notability/Recognition 

message: There is a disconnect between what has been written in this article and what is presented by the LA Times. According to the article Santa Barbara were 5th not HM.
:"The Boys Varsity Tennis team also recently placed 5th in the All-American Invitational Boys Team Tennis Tournament going 3-1 with wins over the Menlo School, the University High School, and the defending champions Santa Barbara High School. Their only loss was to the Torrey Pines High School, the eventual champions in the second round. " Currently in the HM article.
:"Santa Barbara, last year's tournament champion, finished fifth after a 5-4 loss to Riverdale (N.Y.) Horace Mann." Quote from LA Times.
Also it is not good practice to use vague terms such as "recently".  What does that mean?  This year, last ten years? The sentence needs to be more precise: "In 2006, the Boys Varsity Tennis team placed (xth?) in the All-American Invitational Boys Team Tennis Tournament". While we are at it, is this even worth mentioning? How prestigious is this tournament? David D. (Talk) 17:24, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tennis in LA Times 

message: Is there any evidence that 10% of graduates go into intelligence services?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.105.153.115 (talk) 20:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Initial 

message: Whoops, sorry guys, the edit summary should read "it doesn't matter if it didn't work." The law is still in effect whether the student body agress with it or not, that's all we should care about. --Fbv65edel (discuss | contribs) 22:22, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My last revert 

message: As I said above in the Clubs section, as a student of the school, this club has never been a notable presence, nor could I confirm to you that it ever existed. (It probably did, as I don't think somebody could just make it up, but it certainly no longer is active.) --Fbv65edel (discuss | contribs) 18:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Young Entrepreneurs Club 

message: Dystopos directed me to WP:V, a policy which I don't entirely agree with. So, technically, since none of the information is published by a source, it should not belong in the article. However, if we didn't publish information that wasn't already published elsewhere, then the article would turn into a stub – after all, how do we know that the sports are played by those divisions (JV, V, MD)? How do we know the school colors are maroon and white? Because they are – it's a fact, it's information which pertains to the subject. So, I think telling how the Student Government, a large presence at the school, is formed, is important information that is true. But by said policy, it can't be included because a reputable source hasn't published it. So is Wikipedia an anthology? I'll leave it for consensus among other editors before we do something about removing it or keeping it. --Fbv65edel (discuss | contribs) 15:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Peer review would be great. By the way, why was the image changed to the non-official logo from the HM web site? I can get a good photo of the school, if you'd like, but that's not the official design of the school, just what they use on the web page. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 00:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research 

message: Why were all the dates made into pipelink dates?  --  Wikipedical 12:59, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dates 

message: Alumni who do not have a Wikipedia page should not be included in the notable alumni list.  There are thousands of HM alums, and therefore it is only useful to link to those with Wikipedia articles.  Please limit this section from redlinks.  --  Wikipedical 01:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  redlinked 'notable' alumni 

message: Check "Wolf's Head Society" entry's list of "Notables" for suggested format; let us please cease with the typical Horace Manner vanity entries, and do honor to alumni who have affected how "the world" thinks or pplays or works. SLY111````
:So far as I can tell nothing on there is a "vanity entry"; that would suggest to me something like, "JOHN SMITH CLASS OF 2008 A REALLY AMAZING STUDENT." However, Horace Mann does have some notable alumni who haven't necessarily affected the world but are notable, by Wikipedia's standards nonetheless (e.g. Peter Cincotti, who you seem to keep removing). If the person has a Wikipedia article (legitimately), then they quite clearly belong on this list. As for how to format the brief bio, I have no strong feeling in that – do it any way you want, but let's come to consensus on it here. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 22:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable alumni standards 

message: What is with all this vandalism lately... --Catz 03:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dunno (may be that school starts tomorrow and people are anxious not to get back), but I requested the page be semi-protected so that takes care of that… --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 04:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  vandalism... 

message: Well I stumbled upon this page, and I found that the school type was originally reported as "Independent."  If you check the school's website, http://www.horacemann.org, The title reads "Horace Mann School - Private elementary, middle and high school in New York."  So after seeing this bit, and looking through the Horace Mann disambiguation page, I determined that this school is private rather than independent.  Also I looked for schools within the area and found Fieldston, who is also listed as private.  So for the sake of conformity I changed the type.  I'm a bit new to wikipedia; if my reasoning is erroneous please correct me.  --Willy101 07:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While the title does read private school, if you look anywhere else on the website, its FAQs for example, it frequently reads 'independent.'  --  Wikipedical 03:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  School Type 

message: Because the Record and Review have notable information that has been cited, they contribute to the notability of the article as a whole.  However, please do not re-add the list of smaller publications unless you can verify reasons of importance and notability.  --  Wikipedical 00:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of publications 

message: I recently reverted an edit which removed him, with the edit summary, "Tobias isn't a peer of Caro or Barr or Carter." User:SLY111 has written on my talk page, "Unless the Notable list includes 50 or 50 more worthies, and if HM's Distinguished Alumni Award winners are listed that would be enough, then Tobias isn't worthy of mention. His day is over, and his contribution to media is insignificant." I don't know Tobias too well, so I thought I'd let some others decide. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 04:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Andrew Tobias notable? 

message: The mention in the New York Daily news, in and of itself, is completely irrelevant.  If Vaniac wishes to discuss every time the school was mentioned in a newspaper, this page would be much much longer.  Additionally, incidents that make the gossip column - which was where the school was mentioned, the author of which has since been fired by the NY Daily News - do not belong in a page about the school from an encyclopedic standpoint. Wikster72 00:04, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Consider, too, that incidents that make gossip pages are often blown out of proportion (as this one was). --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 00:13, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy... 

message: Back in the '70s, when I was at HM, we followed the traditional British system of prep school Forms. New students starting in 7th grade were called "Firsties" because they were in First Form. Third Form, or 9th grade, was the start of High School, but most of us considered ourselves high school students from the time we started at HM in 7th grade. (I still recall Mr. Wooster hollering at a misbehaving firstie in the halls one day: "You MUST recall that you're in PREP school now," he said with exasperation.) As I recall, the Form system had been in place for many decades. What happened to that system once 6th grade was added to the mix? Is 7th grade still referred to as First Form, or has that changed? Would any of the current HM students even know what I'm talking about? Do they still look forward to being in Sixth Form? Or are they simply seniors, like high school students at any ordinary school? I don't see any discussion or description of this within the article, and if it has changed, it would represent a significant alteration in how both insiders and outsiders perceive the institution. Drgitlow 03:51, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never heard anything about forms, though technically there is no "high school," but the "Upper Division" (and Middle Division, Lower Division and not elementary school, etc.), which sounds much better. But, yes, sixth–twelfth grades are the terms we use now. If you can find some sort of source for the forms (I'll try looking through some old Records), I suppose it could be mentioned. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 04:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You might try looking in Mannikins. I was there from '74 - '80 and recall that the Mannikins (at least some of the ones in that time period) had photos of first form, second form, etc. It would be straight-forward if you have access to all the Mannikins to determine when that ended. It was definitely after 1980, as firsties were still firsties that year. Drgitlow 17:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I see that Fieldston still has 1st through 6th form. By the way, there were plenty of terms that went along with this. "Firstie Day" was the day of the first major snowfall, which guaranteed a snowball fight between first and second form students. "Firstie Machines" were rows of second form students lining both sides of the hall in Pforzheimer (before the addition of the Gratwick wing, the halls were quite narrow). First form students would then have to walk down the hall while avoiding the legs of the second form students, who would naturally manipulate their limbs to cause the maximum amount of difficulty and pain. Drgitlow 18:10, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text: And now I'm going to correct myself, having just looked over all my Mannikins. Not a single one of mine from '74 forward refers to forms. My dad's (Mannikin 1943) very clearly refers to all the classes as Forms, listing students in each Form, and in fact never refers to grades at all. There appears to have been an insidious transition taking place even while I was there! Nevertheless, many of us referred to our grade level by form, and even this residual prep school tradition has since dissipated. Drgitlow 21:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We just had a speaker who is an alum and referred to "2nd form" amidst his speech. But if you say that you were in forms but your Mannikins don't say that, then I suppose it's not helpful to cite those. Haven't had the time yet to go back to some old Records, sorry. I do have a history of HM book though, maybe that's got something. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 04:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Forms==>Grades 

message: I was wondering how much tuition is...
:Last year tuition was $29,110 (). Financial aid is available (). However, talk pages on Wikipedia (like this) are not the place for answers pertaining to the topic of the article. Try either WP:RD or Google, or, for this specific information, the Horace Mann website. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 01:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tuition 

message: The author of the novel Academy X was a teacher at Horace Mann- a small inter-school controversy surfaced when he was dismissed from his post at the end of the 2006-2007 school year. Is this worth adding to the article? 02:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering that the official version of the story was that his contract was not renewed, I'd say not. It might be appropriate for a potential new Academy X article, though. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 04:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Academy X 

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thread_title:  Fair use rationale for Image:Horrace.jpg 

message: Checking a few of the linked alumni articles, very few have any supporting verifiable references to show they ever attended Horace Mann School. The guidance of WP:BLP applies and there should be verifiable sources included for any claims about people in this article. I propose that all alumni should have footnotes demonstrating they are alumni even where linked to another Wikipedia article in order to address this problem. Fæ (talk) 21:52, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It may be worth considering moving the list out to its own article, a good example of this is List of Brigham Young University alumni. Such an article could expand on the sources available (such as alumni newsletters, websites etc.). Fæ (talk) 16:27, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alumni poorly sourced 

message: Editors and mature contributors to this entry must stand ready forever to remove text that hails too heartily this excellent school. As an alumnus, I know the arrogance that animates parts of the local and greater Horace Mann School communities. Readers in Reading, you pick the state among our United States want facts rather than fluff or poppycock. The facts are good enough.— Preceding unsigned comment added by SLY111 (talk • contribs) 14:47, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  A plus for ARROGANCE 

message: I'm interested in getting some thoughts about how to incorporate this recent piece from the New York Times Magazine:
* 
Anyone? MastCell Talk 18:06, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it should be included somehow. It doesn't have to be stated as fact - without additional sources supporting it, that wouldn't be a good idea - but we could say something like 'In 2012, a New York Times article described allegations of a history of sexual abuse at Horace Mann'. Robofish (talk) 19:22, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent New York Times Magazine article 

message: Please do not include information about upcoming protests (which has been removed three times), as Wikipedia is not a resource for conducting business, nor a directory for upcoming events, articles mustn't take sides, and articles should not give minority views as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views, without reliable sources.  This article is about the 100+ year old school, not this scandal.  --  Wikipedical (talk) 02:30, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, but the use of the  was inappropriate for this.  If you'd like to discuss changes to the article, you may propose them on this page.  However, editing Wikipedia representing an organization is frowned upon, and will likely result in a block.  Please read this page for more information. ~ Matthewrbowker  Talk to me 07:55, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additions to allegations of abuse section 

message: The list  is far too long. It  should now be split into  a separate article, leaving  a prose section that  contains just  a few of the most  notable alumni. This will  also  force the issue of requiring  sourced proof that  they  attended the school. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:08, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alumni 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified