Talk:Antisemitism/Archive 18

message: Cohn wrote:
:He [Shahak] also tells us (p. 34) that "both before and after a meal, a pious Jew ritually washes his hands....On one of these two occasions he is worshiping God... but on the other he is worshiping Satan..."
but fails to include the remainder of the line
:who likes Jewish prayers and ritual acts so much that when he is offered a few of them it keeps him busy for a while and he forgets to pester the  divine daughter.
which gives the false impression that Shahak claims Jews offer acts of worship to Satan as an act of reverence and not appeasement. Conch Shell 08:56, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You keep repeating that, as if the alleged reason makes a difference.  It doesn't. Jayjg (talk) 15:26, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Offering acts of worship to Satan (should such a being exist) as a form of appeasement can be morally justified, doing so out of reverence cannot. Conch Shell 11:16, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: He didn't present it as a "morally justifiable" act; that's your apologetic. Jayjg (talk) 23:44, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: He just included a reason that implied this, which Cohn chose to omit. Conch Shell 12:05, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL!  So he did accuse Jews of worshipping Satan, but in your opinion "included a reason that implied this [was morally justified], which Cohn chose to omit"; that's a mighty thin twig on which to rest the weight of your accusation against Cohn. See Apologetics#Colloquial_usage. 
Jayjg (talk) 17:39, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please see the 'RE: Satan Worshiping Allegations' paragraph below. Conch Shell 11:27, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: It's part of an explanation of the Kabbalah, which Shahak claims influences the belief systems of some contemporary religious politicians. Conch Shell 12:05, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see. While the existence (and rise of) fascistic tendencies in Israel is a frightening reality (as it is wrt to Christian fascists in the United States, Islamic fascists in Saudi Arabia, Buddhist facsists in Sri Lanka, etc.), reading it in isolation, I fail to see how his explanation sheds light on any of this. And I am worried that, by virtue of his tone, it encourages some forms of extremism as the cost of exposing others. Which is utterly unecessary, undialectical, and wrong. El_C 20:18, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: From a progressive standpoint, other religions may have rituals that correspond in similar ways to the the dark side —all uniformally absrud (though this is one does have great health benefits), as they are otherwise— but I don't know what point he is trying to make, so I'm at a disadvantage in this polemic.  El_C 23:32, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: In this case, it appears to involve, at best, a combination of both. El_C 20:18, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: RE: 'And Shahak did indeed say the Jews worship Satan

message: Shahak doesn't accuse Jews of worshiping Satan he claims, "Other prayers or religious acts, as interpreted by the cabbalists, are designed to deceive various angels (imagined as minor deities with a measure of independence) or to propitiate Satan."  He also specifically mentions the hand-washing ritual with regard to propitiating Satan. (click here and search for 'propitiating Satan').
I am not defending these claims.  My point in raising them was that Werner Cohn copy-edited a quote to give the false impresssion that Shahak claimed Jews worship Satan out of reverence. Conch Shell 11:27, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Cohn gives no such impression; you've inserted the word "reverence".  You can't put meaning into Cohn's article that isn't actually there, and then claim he is misleading as a result. Jayjg (talk) 19:10, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: People usually worship deities out of reverence, not appeasement.  Shahak stresses the latter in the case of Satan though Cohn copyedits the sentence so people assume the more usual meaning. Conch Shell 08:02, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Your apologetic is unconvincing at best. Jayjg (talk) 15:27, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have to provide the apologetic, you do if you want to defend Cohn's copyedit. Conch Shell 08:18, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: '''RE: Satan Worshiping Allegations'''

message: Could someone maybe explain the symbolism in "The Eternal Jew" pictured at the top, specifically the objects in his hands, etc.?  Thanks! Dewet 17:26, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe he has money in one hand, and a whip in the other.  I think the picture is supposed to imply that Jews love money and rule non-Jews. Jayjg (talk) 19:11, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you sure those aren't Oreos? (Or maybe Hydrox, they're kosher) And a microphone?Gzuckier 20:25, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oreos are kosher too, but not when this poster was made. Jayjg (talk) 20:44, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Didn't know that. I learned to prefer Hydrox, anyway. Gzuckier 20:54, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I think they only became kosher around 5 years ago. Microphones have always been kosher, except on the Sabbath. Jayjg (talk) 21:03, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

text: A funny thing, when I tried to find out whether there is a closer expression with cookies and knouts in English, the top google search result for "cookies and whip" gave "Oreo cookies and whip cream". mikka (t) 06:07, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: ...and oh, almost forgot, it is "Politik von Zuckerbrot und Peitsche" in German. mikka (t) 06:11, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: ...And for the last time, I put all this into the image description. Please check my Englisch. mikka (t) 06:14, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I copied it into the caption here too. Gzuckier 15:10, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  symbolism 

message: I wonder how credible is the source that lead to this edit:
However, the Polish population and the Church did not always respect the charter. One such incident occurred in Poznan in 1399, when the local rabbi and thirteen other members of the Jewish community were tortured and burned at the stake after being accused of stealing Church property. 
I looked at  and found
there that: "Poland became Christian very late, only at the turn of the 11th century, and only then did it join the European community of nations (so to speak). After that, it took a couple of hundred years before Poland started to emerge as a nation-state with strong development potential.". After reading that I'd rather remove the previous comment from the article unless it is confirmed by a less dubious source. Lysy 17:08, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You know, Lysy, you might be right about the source being inaccurate. See the Jewish Encyclopedia for information that the 14 Jews were burned for "Host desecration." I'll fix it. HKT 22:21, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 1399 events in Poznan

message: Responding to an idiotic comment on the discussion page of Black supremacy, I found myself at The Holocaust.  Mindful that this article is an overview of the subject with numerous other, related articles elsewhere on this web site, I still think this piece could use some major additions, major work.  The subject is not a primary interest of mine, so I don't foresee myself contributing much more beyond that which I already have.  But this is a general solicitation (I haven't done so on the wiki page set aside specifically for that purpose; I figured this was more direct) for contributors to converge upon the page and improve the piece.  I've made some suggestions in talk -- take 'em or leave 'em.  But do contribute.  The article seems to have been nominated for featured article status, and that effort (understandably) failed.  The next time it's nominated, such a thing shouldn't happen again.  Peace.  deeceevoice 13:05, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I just visited that article.  As a gay man I have to say I'm delighted that the article boldly talks about the number of gays, disabled and other groups persecuted in the event.  In fact I only now learned that 5 to 6 million was the number of Jews that died in the holocaust and that this only accounted for about half of the total.  The way the media would present it, its as if gays were loved by the Nazis.  This is obviously wrong.  I would had suffered the same fate as the Jews if I'd lived in Nazi Germany as well as many other points in history where I would had been persecuted like this.  It could even happen again since no one cares about it.  I am not saying that the current version is perfect but I do want to stand up in defense for the important information that this article provides that seems to be overlooked by everyone else.  Sirkumsize 03:29, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[The Holocaust]] needs help

message: Compare this article to Anti-Masonry and you'll see that rather than dealing with things from a neutral point of view, this artile has a -massive- bias on it. Jachin 18:38, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you implying that the Anti-Masonry article doesn't seem to be anti-anti-Masonry? (rising inflection at end, indicative of amazed disbelief)Gzuckier 21:01, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, Anti-Masonry is a contrary view to Freemasonry, as are most other Anti-* articles, where as this seems to be a fanatically defended article based on the 'evils of anti-semetism'. Jachin 15:41, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As opposed to the 'benefits of anti-semitism'? Jayjg (talk) 17:19, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: El C., while I do not object your removal of some pieces, I strongly object the way you do it. If you disagree with something, please move the deleted pieces into talk page. Especially whe you are requesting references. 
A piece removed by El C with comment: "Remving passage until propper and well-referenced citations are provided."
:As articulated by Konstantin Pobedonostsev, a Russian statesman and known anti-Semite, it was designed to "cause one-third of the Jews to emigrate, one-third to accept baptism, and one-third to starve." 
I trust you to review your other deletions (if any) and proceed in a similar way. (As a side note: this quotation indeed circulated in Russia; I don't know the attribution, but its existence is notable enough as an evidence of attitudes, but unfortunately it is unclear which ones: either the display of a-S, or of attempts to stygmatize someone. )mikka (t) 17:05, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It wasn't as sinister as you make it sound, It just slipped my mind because I was doing a lot of different things at the time. Had you checked my talk page, you would have seen the pertinent discussion and would have been able to refractor it here as I will do bellow. El_C 07:01, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal by El C

message: Moved from my talk page. El_C 07:01, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, in light of your above explanation, I definitely wish to see a well-referenced print source now, consensus version or no consensus version. Until HS produces one, I will remove it. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, 217.117.80.2. El_C 11:03, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The difference in wording could well be an artifact of translation. Secretlondon 11:09, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Very true, but at the moment I'm limiting myself to seeking a well-referenced citation that demonstrates he stated this. At any event, I am confident HS will be able to provide us with something definitive, which draws from the historiographical consensus. El_C 11:17, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: It will be fair to remove the passage about Pobedonostsev from other articles Such as May_Laws and Konstantin Pobedonostsev  (Pobedonostsev defender)  217.117.80.2 11:34, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, until the source is provided, it would be. Though it may prove short-lived. By all means, go ahead. El_C 11:38, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have found possible source of this "quotation"!!!
It is "The Melting Pot" play written by Israel Zangwill in 1908.
http://www.vdare.com/fulford/melting_pot.htm
The wicked Baron shares his program for the Jews of Russia:
"One-third will be baptized, one-third massacred, the other third emigrated here."
His American interlocutor says: "We're going to stop all alien immigration."
The wicked Baron: "To stop all alien?? But that is barbarous!"
http://beatl.barnard.columbia.edu/wsharpe/citylit/Melting3.htm
(Pobedonostsev defender) --217.117.80.2 13:03, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Hmm. Could it be that Pobedonostsev recited that? I am afraid I'm rather ignorant about prerevolutionary Russia. I wish to hear what other editors have to say. I'm going to move most of the above to the article's talk page to guage on other editors' thoughts (which, as was rightly noted, I should have done the first time – but I thought at the time that finding a propper source would be a relatively brief affair). El_C 07:01, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Copied from Humus_sapiens' talk page. El_C 08:02, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please see May Laws and Talk:May Laws. I've included an exact quote from a book, and also provided a bunch of Russian links containing reference to the same passage. As can be seen from the article, the problem was much larger than a lone antisemite in the tsarist court. The fact that a similar phrase was reused in a drama years later or by a Nazi later yet, proves nothing. Do they compete for a patent? ←Humus sapiens←Talk 09:09, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: As, in that sense, the 1908 reference. Sorry, I can't follow it because I am not fluent in Russian. Is there an actual print source that you can cite in English (work, author, publisher, page no., reference they use). Thank you in advance, El_C 11:43, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article May Laws contains an English-language printed book with author & page number. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 18:45, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: For that quote? Sorry, I could'nt find it on a brief glance. Since we already discussed the issue at length here, can you just provide it in your next comment? Then we can note it in other pertinent  articles. Thanks, El_C 23:04, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here is the quote: "Alexander III did not simply seek to make life more difficult for Jews in his domain; he intended to make it impossible. Konstantin Pobedonostsev would one day candidly admit to a Jewish delelgation hoping for relief that the regime expected one-third of Russia's Jews to emigrate, one-third to accept baptism, and one-third to perish. Since Pobedonostsev was the tsar's mentor, friend, and most respected adviser, apart from his official post as procurator-general of the Holy Synod, he and his sovereign were of one mind. As the 1880s progressed, the legislation prohibiting Jews from moving to villages — inside as well as outside the Pale — assured the slow death of shtetl existence." (Source: Elliot Rosenberg, "But Were They Good for the Jews?", p.182). ←Humus sapiens←Talk 00:24, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Your "most likely" is original research, keep it out of WP. Forced russification and baptism were official policies of Russian Tsars, and especially of Alexander III. I brought a dozen or so links in support, and not mentioning this policy would be lying by omission. The result of these policies were  pogroms (the word entered other languages after 1881), Jewish mass emigration, disenfranchisement and impoverishing of Russian Jews who natrally turned to revolutionary activities and Zionism. That included Congress Poland BTW. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 02:50, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's discuss only "quotation".  Czarist policy is much broader field. --DonaldDuck 02:53, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why, not? It is related a little bit, isn't it? So far, I quoted a book and brought many links in support. And you...? ←Humus sapiens←Talk 02:57, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "So far, I quoted a book and brought many links in support. And you...?". I have shown that your book doesn't give original source of the "quote", thus it is irrelevant to discussion of it. Also I have gave dozen of links attributing "quote" not to Pobedonostsev but to Nicholas II, Alexander III, anonymous czar adviser, Ante Pavelic (modification with Serbs), Mile Budak, Mirko Puk( modification with Serbs), Baron ("The Melting Pot"). --DonaldDuck 03:18, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the sources you brought is particularly conclusive either, on the question, PD. El_C 03:48, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes this sources are not conclusive, I brought this links to display that there are a lot of contradicting versions, which are not based on reliable original sources. I suppose that there are no such sources. --DonaldDuck 04:17, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That remains to be seen, PD. El_C 04:19, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: I am not claiming that I have an exact quote, that is why I do not put it in '"' quotes in May Laws. I merely quoted an important book and brought a dozen of links (one is Russian Committeee in Defense of Human Rights) in support. Please explain why this particular quote from this particular book isn't good. BTW, I don't even claim that Pobedonostsev has coined the phrase, so my condolences to Mirko Puk & Co. Here are a few more links (in addition to the list in May Laws and its talk): 
* In his 19 may 1887 letter to tsar A.III  Pobedonostsev calls to cleanse some regions of Poles and Jews, (the latter he calls "Другая язва" - "Another ulcer"). In a letter dated 11 jan 1889 he writes: "О евреях,— великой нашей язве, которая проникла всюду..." - "About the Jews - our great ulcer that has spread everywhere...") 
* In his letter to Nikolas II  he uses offensive ethnic slur "жидов". 
* Here is a chapter "Evangelical Church in Tsarist Russia" from 2002 Gerhard Simon's book "K.P. Pobedonostsev and Holy Sinod's Policies Concerning the Church, 1880-1905" - in two words: xenophobia and repressions. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 06:23, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: El_C, you are referring to an old diff. I compromised and instead of that phrase added exact quote from Rosenberg's book - but DDuck keeps erasing it from May Laws. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 08:52, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Konstantin Pobedonostsev passage 

message: "Articulated by Konstantin Pobedonostsev, a Russian statesman, the head of the Russian Holy Synod and a known anti-Semite, the policy was designed to "cause one-third of the Jews to emigrate, one-third to accept baptism, and one-third to starve". ("Jewish History of the Russian Federation: From Ancient Times to the Second World War." Heritage Films, Par.13)"
This part of article is not based on reliable sources. There is no evidence that Pobedonostsev said this phrase. "Jewish History of the Russian Federation: From Ancient Times to the Second World War." does not name person, who heard and reported this phrase. Attributing this phrase to Pobedonostsev needs HARD evidence. Otherwise it is libel.
If you search the web, you will find that the phrase has no exact form
"cause one-third of the Jews to emigrate, one-third to accept baptism, and one-third to starve" wiki variant
"one-third of Russian Jews should convert to Orthodoxy, one-third should emigrate and one-third should be killed." www.ncsj.org/AuxPages/051601Choral.shtml
"one-third of the Jews will convert, one-third will die, and one-third will flee the country" www.iona.edu/faculty/dwilliams/130/barnett.htm
Moreover http://www.srpska-mreza.com/History/ww2/gallery.html
Worldmark Encyclopedia of the Nations, Europe, edition 1995, page 91, entry: Croatia Quote: Slavko Kvaternik [the second in command to the Croatian WWII fuehrer, Dr Ante Pavelic] explained [on the day of formation of the WWII "Independent State of Croatia", on April 10, 1941] how pure Croatia should be built - by forcing one third of the Serbs to leave Croatia, one third to convert to Catholicism, and one third to be exterminated. Soon Ustasha bands initiated a bloody orgy of mass murder of Serbs unfortunate enough not to have converted or left Croatia on time. The enormity of such criminal behavior shocked even the conscience of German commanders... End quote
http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Ustashe
The Usta?e embraced the Nazi ideology of the time. They aimed at an ethnically "pure" Croatia, and saw the Serbs that lived in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina as the their biggest obstacle. Thus, Usta?e ministers Mile Budak, Mirko Puk and Milovan ?ani? declared in May 1941 that the goal of the Usta?e was: One third of the Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia (ISC) to be catholicized One third of the Serbs to be expelled out of ISC One third of the Serbs in the ISC to be liquidated
So phrase in various forms is attributed to different people without any evidence. It is surely a libel.
Please remove this phrase from wikipedia article. 217.117.80.2 06:35, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, in light of your above explanation, I definitely wish to see a well-referenced print source now, consensus version or no consensus version. Until HS produces one, I will remove it. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, 217.117.80.2. El_C 11:03, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The difference in wording could well be an artifact of translation. Secretlondon 11:09, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Very true, but at the moment I'm limiting myself to seeking a well-referenced citation that demonstrates he stated this. At any event, I am confident HS will be able to provide us with something definitive, which draws from the historiographical consensus. El_C 11:17, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: It will be fair to remove the passage about Pobedonostsev from other articles Such as May_Laws and Konstantin Pobedonostsev  (Pobedonostsev defender)  217.117.80.2 11:34, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, until the source is provided, it would be. Though it may prove short-lived. By all means, go ahead. El_C 11:38, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have found possible source of this "quotation"!!!
It is "The Melting Pot" play written by Israel Zangwill in 1908.
http://www.vdare.com/fulford/melting_pot.htm
The wicked Baron shares his program for the Jews of Russia:
"One-third will be baptized, one-third massacred, the other third emigrated here."
His American interlocutor says: "We're going to stop all alien immigration."
The wicked Baron: "To stop all alien?? But that is barbarous!"
http://beatl.barnard.columbia.edu/wsharpe/citylit/Melting3.htm
(Pobedonostsev defender) --217.117.80.2 13:03, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Hmm. Could it be that Pobedonostsev recited that? I am afraid I'm rather ignorant about prerevolutionary Russia. I wish to hear what other editors have to say. I'm going to move most of the above to the article's talk page to guage on other editors' thoughts (which, as was rightly noted, I should have done the first time – but I thought at the time that finding a propper source would be a relatively brief affair). El_C 07:01, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Copied from Humus_sapiens' talk page. El_C 08:02, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please see May Laws and Talk:May Laws. I've included an exact quote from a book, and also provided a bunch of Russian links containing reference to the same passage. As can be seen from the article, the problem was much larger than a lone antisemite in the tsarist court. The fact that a similar phrase was reused in a drama years later or by a Nazi later yet, proves nothing. Do they compete for a patent? ←Humus sapiens←Talk 09:09, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: As, in that sense, the 1908 reference. Sorry, I can't follow it because I am not fluent in Russian. Is there an actual print source that you can cite in English (work, author, publisher, page no., reference they use). Thank you in advance, El_C 11:43, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article May Laws contains an English-language printed book with author & page number. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 18:45, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: For that quote? Sorry, I could'nt find it on a brief glance. Since we already discussed the issue at length here, can you just provide it in your next comment? Then we can note it in other pertinent  articles. Thanks, El_C 23:04, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here is the quote: "Alexander III did not simply seek to make life more difficult for Jews in his domain; he intended to make it impossible. Konstantin Pobedonostsev would one day candidly admit to a Jewish delelgation hoping for relief that the regime expected one-third of Russia's Jews to emigrate, one-third to accept baptism, and one-third to perish. Since Pobedonostsev was the tsar's mentor, friend, and most respected adviser, apart from his official post as procurator-general of the Holy Synod, he and his sovereign were of one mind. As the 1880s progressed, the legislation prohibiting Jews from moving to villages — inside as well as outside the Pale — assured the slow death of shtetl existence." (Source: Elliot Rosenberg, "But Were They Good for the Jews?", p.182). ←Humus sapiens←Talk 00:24, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Your "most likely" is original research, keep it out of WP. Forced russification and baptism were official policies of Russian Tsars, and especially of Alexander III. I brought a dozen or so links in support, and not mentioning this policy would be lying by omission. The result of these policies were  pogroms (the word entered other languages after 1881), Jewish mass emigration, disenfranchisement and impoverishing of Russian Jews who natrally turned to revolutionary activities and Zionism. That included Congress Poland BTW. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 02:50, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's discuss only "quotation".  Czarist policy is much broader field. --DonaldDuck 02:53, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why, not? It is related a little bit, isn't it? So far, I quoted a book and brought many links in support. And you...? ←Humus sapiens←Talk 02:57, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "So far, I quoted a book and brought many links in support. And you...?". I have shown that your book doesn't give original source of the "quote", thus it is irrelevant to discussion of it. Also I have gave dozen of links attributing "quote" not to Pobedonostsev but to Nicholas II, Alexander III, anonymous czar adviser, Ante Pavelic (modification with Serbs), Mile Budak, Mirko Puk( modification with Serbs), Baron ("The Melting Pot"). --DonaldDuck 03:18, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the sources you brought is particularly conclusive either, on the question, PD. El_C 03:48, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes this sources are not conclusive, I brought this links to display that there are a lot of contradicting versions, which are not based on reliable original sources. I suppose that there are no such sources. --DonaldDuck 04:17, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That remains to be seen, PD. El_C 04:19, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: I am not claiming that I have an exact quote, that is why I do not put it in '"' quotes in May Laws. I merely quoted an important book and brought a dozen of links (one is Russian Committeee in Defense of Human Rights) in support. Please explain why this particular quote from this particular book isn't good. BTW, I don't even claim that Pobedonostsev has coined the phrase, so my condolences to Mirko Puk & Co. Here are a few more links (in addition to the list in May Laws and its talk): 
* In his 19 may 1887 letter to tsar A.III  Pobedonostsev calls to cleanse some regions of Poles and Jews, (the latter he calls "Другая язва" - "Another ulcer"). In a letter dated 11 jan 1889 he writes: "О евреях,— великой нашей язве, которая проникла всюду..." - "About the Jews - our great ulcer that has spread everywhere...") 
* In his letter to Nikolas II  he uses offensive ethnic slur "жидов". 
* Here is a chapter "Evangelical Church in Tsarist Russia" from 2002 Gerhard Simon's book "K.P. Pobedonostsev and Holy Sinod's Policies Concerning the Church, 1880-1905" - in two words: xenophobia and repressions. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 06:23, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: El_C, you are referring to an old diff. I compromised and instead of that phrase added exact quote from Rosenberg's book - but DDuck keeps erasing it from May Laws. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 08:52, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Pobedonostsev's quote

message: * Humus_sapiens "In his 19 may 1887 letter to tsar A.III Pobedonostsev calls to cleanse some regions of Poles and Jews"   - there is NO call to kill, baptise, or force to emigrate in this letter. --DonaldDuck 07:07, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Have I ever said that KPP's quote in question comes from this particular letter? My quote comes from a book with author and page number provided. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 08:45, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: The "only two sentences about Jews" is a good example of his attitudes. See May Laws for the legislation that followed. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 08:45, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Spoken like true humanitarian: "Nihilists, Anarhists, Liberals of different types and Jews". ←Humus sapiens←Talk 08:45, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, certainly he is not humanitarian. Still letters display no plans to kill one third of Russian Jews attributed to him in your passage. --DonaldDuck 10:03, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Fine, we can use this quotation. Sorry I don't have Poliakov nor Dubnow handy now. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 08:45, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Caution: this is my translation; from Russian text; so I'd rather look for a Fr-En translation. mikka (t) 09:02, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: "According to the famous formula, originated in the circles of Alexander III..." - it proves that it is not a "quote" but a gossip. Poliakov attributes formula to some anonymous "circles".--DonaldDuck 10:03, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Poliakov is not an authority anymore becase DDuck didn't like him. Next! ←Humus sapiens←Talk 10:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why do you think I don't like Polyakov?? I don't understand. Citation from Polyakov states  that authorship of the "famous formula" is unclear, thus it proves that it was not articulated by Pobedonostsev.--DonaldDuck 10:46, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please see Talk:May_Laws#Pobedonostsev for 22 (twenty two) English-lang books containing this quote. I must note that this particular quote is translated in a slightly different ways in various books. We can (and should) cite any of the books. Another note: usually controversial or suspicious quotes are challenged by scholars. 120 years have passed but I didn't find any dispute about this particular one. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 10:16, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Still, Humus you have failed to find original source. By original source I mean transcript of speech by Pobedonostsev, article by Pobedonostsev, letter written by Pobedonostsev, article written by Pobedonostsev, statement by someone, who heard this words from Pobedonostsev.--DonaldDuck 11:43, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: You may believe it to be false, but your original research is not permitted in Wikipedia articles.  Please find a respectable source stating this quote is false. Jayjg (talk) 15:08, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pobedonostsev quotation (Part 2)