Talk:Phanariots/Archive 2

message: I'm trying to make some room for new edits but it's hopeless. See the section "Starting point" for instance, starting point of what?? The Phanariotes? This article clearly describes the Phanariote epoch and not the Phanariotes, hence I'm still in favour of a move. Miskin 11:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 1. Who says that you are to stick to that subtitle, and why is it another person's responsibility to adapt text for you? 2. You are not following wikipedia guidelines when renaming, Miskin - proff of it being that the names in Britannica followed a Englishified version - Nicholas Mavrocordato etc. (when, in fact, the person in ruler was not not known mainly and with priority be his Romanian version of the name). Dahn 12:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: That is absuird, frankly. First of all, you'll notice that the name that was given in most sources reflects the English spelling, not the Romanian one (Nicholas Mavrocordato is the Britannica version of what in Romanian is "Nicolae Mavrocordat"; for the same reason the main entry for Alexandros Ypsilanti or Alexandru Ipsilanti (the older) is Alexander Ypsilantis). You did not even respect your own claims: Stephanos Cantacuzenus?!!! When his ancestor was Şerban Cantacuzino?! How is he "more Greek" than those who claimed a Greek lineage that you dismiss if he was alive after those people were dead and if his family was not Phanariote, but boyar?! Dahn 12:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, it seems to me that wikipedia is using "Constantinople" only for pre-1453! Never mind its spread use under the Greek form: this is simply redundant! Dahn 12:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Regardless, carry the controversy there. My point is that you can't go wrong using Istanbul. Dahn 12:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: If this is the statu quo on wiki as it is, and if you yourself have added "Constantinople" as redundant (since you linked the second word), then you'll have nothing to object to in my version. Oh, by all means, go ahead and tell me I'm biased in favor of the Turks now... And how's about answering the concerns about the princes' names? Dahn 12:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: How is that connected to the topic? I had asked you why you went and changed Princes' names who have a variant in neither Romanian nor Greek, but in English, and why you have included people who are by no means Phanariote in your renaming campaign? Dahn 12:58, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Either Nicholas Mavrocordatos or Nicholas Mavrocordato (and John, and Alexander, and Constantine) PER: Jewish Encyclopedia, Canadian Society for Eighteenth-Century Studies, Oxford University Gazette (lecture held by a Mr. Karidis), , Electronic Text Archive at Washington University, Globusz Publishing etc etc. See for yourself. Note that, again, I am not favoring the Romanian spelling. Dahn 13:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: No, because you can't spell in Romanian (try: Stefan Cantacuzino"). Note that you have called the Cantacuzinos "allegedly Greek" or something of that nature. Consider that you did not rename his ancestors, since they only claimed to be Greek, but him, because... Because? For Chrissake, he wasnt't a Phanariote! Dahn 13:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: This is what I say: all families should be given the name closest to Greek. All rulers should be given the Englishified version for the Christian name, since that seems to be common practice (and is on par with the names preferred for monarchs throughout wikipedia), and the Romanian version should be given mention as the third version for most, after Greek (and I agree with you that it was not official). If you have your doubts about moving, how's about not moving at all? Dahn 13:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Still waiting for your opinion on the Nicholas Mavrocordato(s) vs. both Nicholaos and Nicolae. As to "Stephanos", consider what you yourself have said about the Cantacuzino family in Wallachia. If "Stephanos", just as Constantin Brâncoveanu and Şerban Cantacuzino ("Serbanos"?), was a member of that family, judge for yourself. Dahn 13:46, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, then, let's agree on "Nicholas" and "John" and "Constantine" (which are, to my knowledge, Britannica's and not only) for the Phanariotes. This could work for rulers of Wallachia and Moldavia in general - and it does for the likes of Stephen III of Moldavia - but cannot be applied to most rulers for various issues which are not related to this one. To answer another question: the line drawn between Greek and Romanian was not similar to the one drawn today. Bare with me: contemporary sources distinguished between "native boyars" and the "new arrivals" (the latter would sometimes be labelled as Greek, but could also be Albanian or even Armenian); this trend began way before the Phanariotes, and intermarriage here was no more an issue than it was everywhere else at the time (especially since both sides were Orthodox, which was the truly important identity at the time). The said families would all be educated almost completely in Greek, would likely speak it extensively or, in some cases, almost completely, but would also leave behind records of exquisite Romanian (such as the stolnic Constantin Cantacuzino did) and most rulers had an adequate knowledge of Romanian. Add to this a third language of importance, which many of those you would label as "ethnic Greek" also used, which was Slavonic. With the Phanariotes, a Greek cultural hegemony slowly imposed itself, without ever replacing or wanting to replace the others; it was most prestigious because it was associated with superior culture and the Empire dream, arguably. You need not go further than this article to notice that protests against Phanariote rules in the name of a local identity reunited the more Wallachian/Moldavian families with those arrived just 10 years before or so, - BECAUSE THE FOCUS WAS ON KEEPING FEUDAL PRIVILEGE, and not "being Romanian" vs. "being Greek". Now come the true complications: sometime after the Greek awakening and its avatars, an investment into more specific identities came to Wallchia/Moldavia as well. Ion Ghica, the grandson of Phanariote Albanian-Aromanian Greek speakers, was involved in every possible cause of Romanian nationalism; in his letters to a Moldavian poet, he remembered how "we Romanians" were only taught in Greek as kids, and about how "we Romanians only learned to read and write Romanian when we were teenagers". Add to this that a relative of his, Dora d'Istria, also looking for a more specific indentity as was the fashion, wrote some of the first modern works in Albanian. Perhaps now you'll begin to see what this is all about, Miskin. Dahn 14:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Be that as it may, you had started abusing the Romanian pages for non-Phanariotes. Similarly, Phanariotes and other Greeks who adopted a different nationality over the years, must be treated according to their new identity and not the one of their supposed ancestors - I can agree with that, and I have never implied that Greek culture was not the main trait of Phanariotes; however, I have pointed out that clear-cut lines do not exist, and that Phanariotes (referenced to Greek Diaspora, referenced as Greeks, etc., should still present the exceptions and the precise differences in context very clearly - for example, the fact that, using the same logic, many Phanariotes have chosen to be something else when they thought the context dictated a different choice; what goes for the Ghicas also goes for the Sturdzas, Moruzis and Caradjas after the Treaty of Adrianople, as many of them opted to be Romanian - WHICH, for the fifth time, I DO NOT USE TO IMPLY THAT THEIR ANCESTORS WERE "ROMANIAN"). On a related topic: switching the main name of the articles to the English version ("Nicholas" insted of "Nicolae" or "Nicolaos"; "John" instead of "Ioan" and "Iannis" etc.) is not only the common practice, it also seems to be the habit of both Greek and Romanian voices when they express themselves in English (see the links I have provided above). Dahn 14:42, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Fine. Note that Mavrocordato is not "the Romanian version", it was the version of the article as it appeared in the 1911 Britannica (the main source for the article). If you are so prone on renaming, Miskin, could you do everyone a favor and apply it consistently, everywhere it appears. Your carelessness is what I object to mostly. Dahn 19:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: See above. I can't be bothered to do cleanup work after your impulses. (note where it says "please check for any double re-directs"? That's a large part of what I mean)Dahn 19:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: And yet I'm still picking up your leftovers. Allow me to assume that this is because you don't have the slightest idea about how Greeks in general and Phanariotes in particular fit into Romanian history. I'm willing to bet it has not been long ever since you first heard that there were Phanariotes in Moldavia and Wallachia as well. For Christ's sake, at least turn the names you change to a single form in the respective article. Dahn 15:16, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I never said I was an expert in what concerns Romanian history, unlike others who pretend to know everything. The presence of 'Greek Princes in the Danubian Provinces' however is common knowledge and you don't need to be an expert to spot Romanian POV-pushing. I searched for double redirects and changed the names where my eyes crossed it, I think that's enough contribution from my part. You are under the impression that you're doing me a favour, or that you satisfy my "impulses", and feel that it would be an errand to make some effort of your own. Well what really happens though is that thanks to me a great deal of POV has been removed, and so the quality of those articles has improved. This is the result of my "impulses", so you might as well realise it and correct what I missed without making complaints. Miskin 15:34, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, Miskin, you cannot point to a single example of "Romanian POV". Those texts were largely from Britannica, and in many cases reflect both antiquated spelling (not Romanian) and antiquated discourse - with didacticisms that were thought to be ok in the 1910s. Plus: consider that this article about the Phanariotes (which may be focusing on Romania, but that is mainly because that is the info Romanians were contributing - for some Greek contributors to let it rot in this state, and then complain) aims to take on objective view of the subject, and does not fall prey to the Eminescu-like slurs which are the standard Romanian POV. It is indeed an errand to ask for me to cut out Gordian knots you keep creating, and I have asked you to at least take care of some double redirects and confusing edits. Aside from the examples I have mentioned, you have chosen to rename articles about just some of the Mavrocordatos (which leads me to question how much interested you really are in trully improving the quality of the pages, even according to your standards). Dahn 16:01, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RENAME 

message: Expressions like "You could do me the favour of noting that I have reverted all similar contributions from the other side. Do something constructive to this article or turn off your computer. In any case, leave me alone." are totally inacceptable. We are not owing articles here; therefore, these words are far away from Wikipedia's philosophy. We cannot ask anybody to leave. Articles are not our property. These are my initial remarks about this article:
*This article is about "Phanariotes" who were Greeks, but it insists mainly on their role in Romania. And what about their other roles? This article must be expanded or renamed as User:Myskin has suggested (I lean towards expansion). If there are disagreements, we can alway vote: Democratic proceedures will prevail.
*This article is about Greeks, but mentions no Greek sources. Only Romanian ones. I respect these sources, but the current status is totally inacceptable. I intend to enrich the article with my own Greek sources.
*Greek Wikipedians who want to contribute in this article should be respected and not be treated with contempt. Expressions of the kind "Do something constructive to this article or turn off your computer. In any case, leave me alone" are not so polite.
As far as I am concerned I intend to contribute to this article with the eagerness to cooperate with other editors. I donot believe in edit wars and I donot like them. I believe that we can solve our possible disagreements through consensus. I hope other means (mediations etc.) will not be necessary.--Yannismarou 18:01, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The assumption of guilt in your post is quite offending, frankly. Let me stress this again: I have not just welcomed, I have asked for Greek contributions to this article. I have had a long talk with User:Greece666 on this topic, and, as I have indicated two times already, it was Greece666 who let me know that he agrees changes proposed by Miskin have yet no factual fundament. In short, Miskin had started a long and arduous and counter-productive diatribe against me for not agreeing that this article needs to be cut into two sections, because it is "Romanian-centric" (while accusing me of stuff he could not evidence, such as having "a Romanian POV"); I have said, basically, "add to the text and we'll see if sectioning is necessary" (at least for the simple reason that reviewing all the would-be obsolete links to this article is a bitch, and he has indicated already that he does not care much for doing stuff like that himself, but rather leave it to others); furthermore, Miskin's "contributions" to this article so far consist of rephrasing one sentence. Greece666 himself has said that he does not think that sectioning would ever be necessary, while promising to contribute to this article. It is my understanding that taking me out of context with what I had ultimately told to Miskin, after exhausting rounds of repetition and sophistry, was unintentional; I will state it again - anyone, who does not have anything to contribute to a particular article, but feels it should be split into a two-sentence long "main article" and a "see also" as big as this page is, can and should turn off his or her computer instead of harassing other users. I resent the implication that I am anti-Greek, and I welcome all edits that do not hurt the integrity of this text for the sake of proving a point. I will agree to splitting when and if it shall prove useful. As long as that is taken in view, as long as accusations are not made willy-nilly, and as long as wikipedia guidelines are taken in view in the new additions, I have no objection, Yannismarou. Dahn 20:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not imply anything against you and, of cource, I did not imply you are anti-Greek. If I believed that, I would have told it straight to you. What annoyed me is your last comment against Miskin. You cannot ask people who want to contribute to leave. You have to find ways to co-exist and you definitely have to take seriously other people's suggestions, especially when they have a point. And Miskin is definitely right in one point: Phanariotes played a crucial role in the resurrection of modern Hellenism and in the Greek War of Independence. The current article does not discuss these issues and, therefore, it needs a bold expansion and, maybe, in some sections, rewriting in order to cover these issues. If I had time, I'd have started thorough rewriting as I did with other articles. Unfortunately, I donot have time, because I'm busy with other articles. But I definitely intend to make some "injections of improvement" in this article. I'm looking forward to your co-operation. And I kindly ask you to take into consideration the arguments of Miskin and what I've just written. If you understand the importance of this article for modern Hellenism, you might question yourself: These bizarre and stubborn Greeks do they really want to have all the time edit wars or do they have some point in what they say and on what they insist? Cheers!--Yannismarou 20:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I repeat myself: Miskin has made no suggestions for this article other than splitting it apart without providing content that would match this section (equivalent to his initiative to renmae a few Moldo-Wallachian hospodars based on what he thought their names would be in Greek). In fact, my comment was provoked by the fact that, instead of adding to this article stuff on, say, "the importance of this article for modern Hellenism", he simply proposed a move that disreagrded several points made by wikipedia policies (in the matter of brevity and relevancy). I was tired of doing clean up work after him. Note again that I had in fact suggested to Greece666 to split this article in case text on the Greek-related section, which I always believed and stated should be expanded, makes this article too large; I will also repeat for the 4th time that Greece666 has told me that that this may never be necessary. Given this, all your other comments are besides the point - you have chosen to assume stuff about about my views instead of seeing what they actually are. That said, I am looking forward to your edits, and will give my full co-operation. Dahn 20:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Dear Miskin, that is just an atrocious excuse. First of all, this article was far from a stub, and the Britannica article it was based on made a minor mention of their presence anywhere but in Romania. I am not saying that would somehow be justified, I am just telling it like it is. There was nothing preventing you from adding text. Nothing. If you can't adapt it to the context of the present text, that's your problem - however, even then, I would contribute in copyediting. Generally, I would wager that 1 of 2 sources mentioning the Phanariotes would make ample reference to their presence in present-day Romania; the underlining implication that it is but a small episode of Phanariote history overall is ridiculous. If you consider that it is one of the many episodes (to which I agree), then go and contribute something that is not territorial marking. I don't want to count my eggs before they are hatched, and I added what I could contribute (especially since what was at stake was to get rid of blatant bias encouraged by some Romanians in the article as it was when I found it). For the thirteenth and last time: I will even consider splitting the article when I have something to split. Now, I will not carry this debate any further, and I am looking for some relevant contributions from users who have not yet accused me of Romanian POV without feeling like they should prove it. And do have the curtsy of informing yourself of the fact that Wallachia and Moldavia were not provinces. About your views on my supposed attitudes: I do not care, and I don't believe I should. Dahn 23:13, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Note to those users who have the naivite to believe that Miskin came to the proposal of splitting the article after meeting with my "attitude" (supposedly, my hostile attitude): check the archived talk. It was HIS FIRST PROPOSAL, HIS VERY FIRST POST. Dahn 23:16, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: 1. Ahem. 1911 Britannica, that was, Miskin. 2. Something gets lost on the line when you cannot help but accuse me of POV edits on a text you could've written (?!!). And again, Miskin, stop slandering me with a POV-tag when you do not do me the favour of seeing that I have cleaned out the Romanian POV from the article (but I guess you know so little about Phanariote history in the lands you call "Danubian provinces" that you cannot see what is POV and what is not). 3. Nobody can coherce me into writing anything, and least of all into writing something I am not especially familiar with. Nobody can use my failure to comply with the order as indicative of "POV" or "hostility". Furthermore, nobody can accuse me of POV for thoroughly writing a section I do know a lot about - that is pure sophistry. I have never said that Greek editors should edit Greek sections, I have said that, if anyone can add something relevant to complete the article, let them do so (for chrissake, I have contributed, and, for chrissake, I don't have expertise on much more than that on this topic). It is inflammatory to accuse someone of segregating the article when your first proposal was to up and split it. All that speculation about my true intentions belongs in your private diary. 4. The starting point issue which you dug up, you may note, has no relevancy at the moment. I had originally added the header because the goddamn article in front of my eyes dealt with the Danubian Principalities, and I, unlike you, cannot predict into the future to see if this was to potentially upset someone. Now, if you may see this and other changes, please spice up your routine accordingly. 5. I have shown ad nauseam my willingness to include the contributions of Greek users. My requests in this respect have always been purely stylistical (of the kind you ignore hen rushing in to raise yet another monument to your POV). I want the text not to have superfluous and/or self-contradictory parts; I want the spelling to be unitary; I want information on all topics, including the Greek and generic Balkan perspectives, to be ample and referenced; if the text is to be split, if more articles are to be created, are issues we deal with when we have a reason to do so (again, at least because a lot of the many, many links in other articles would need to be redirected). In the process, I do not wish to allow for subjectivity (of the "let's include Greeks living in the Phanar today" kind, of the "Serbanos Cantacuzenos" kind). That is all, Miskin. I have allowed enough speculation and character assassination. Reply all you want: this is my last response to allegations about my conduct etc. If you have something relevant to the article, I'll be listening. Otherwise, again, start writing a diary or a blog. Dahn 00:30, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: We can co-operate here-Respect the contributions of others