Talk:Celts/Archive 3

message: According to the book A History of Europe by Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick, Roman effects on Celtic culture included the decline of Druids,  appearence of images in worship (specifically those made of stone, as there is evidence that wooden images may have been used pre-Romanization), and assimilation between Roman and Celtic religions. For example hybrid gods such as Mars Loucetius begin to appear. Another example is the appearence of Jupiter columns. Which depict a god that is similar to the Germanic sky God Oden, but is given the name Jupiter. 
I added something which had this information in the article, but it was deleted and I was wander if it was deleted because the book is inacurate, or for some other reason. If this information is correct then I would like for it to be added to the article. --75.18.12.164 05:00, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well in that case please tell us the name and author of the book when you add the info. We can't tell whether it's accurate or not when we don't know which book it is. Now that you've told us, we can check for ourselves. -- Derek Ross | Talk 07:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On the cultural aspect, Lloyd and Laing's Art of the Celts states that there are three "traditions" in Celtic art: La Tène 5th century BC till Caesar conquered Gaul in the first century BC which drew on native, classical and oriental sources; a related regional tradition in Britain and Ireland from 5th or 4th century BC to Roman conquest around AD 43 or so; then in Ireland and to a lesser extent Britain between 5th and 12th centuries AD – "This art borrows heavily from Roman motifs and it is a debated point as to what extent it owes a debt to La Tène art at all." Apparently there was considerable Etruscan and later Roman influence, absorbed and modified. .. dave souza, talk 11:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So is the book right or not?--75.18.12.188 02:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Romanization of Celts 

message: Noticing the American spelling of "Romanization", I wonder if this article shouldn't use British spelling since this article is about a European group of people. No big deal either way but it makes sense to me. Abtract 10:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps more to the point, since the article has historically been written in UK English it should be done that way consistently according to the MoS. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 23:39, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Marking topic "Resolved"; conforming edits already made. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 00:50, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Spelling

message: Argument rages in the academic world as to whether the population of Celts in England were largely displaced or merely absorbed by invading Germanic tribes (Anglo-Saxons) in the 4th - 6th centuries. Many historians now argue that the Germanic migration was smaller than previously believed or may have consisted merely of a social elite, with the genocide more cultural rather than physical due to such relatively few numbers of Anglo-Saxons mixing with the larger native population. A recent DNA study on Y-chromosome inheritance has suggested that the population of England maintains a predominantly ancient British element. The general indigenous population of Yorkshire, East Anglia and the Orkney and Shetland Islands are those populations with the very least traces of ancient British paternal continuation."By analyzing 1772 Y chromosomes from 25 predominantly small urban locations,  its found that different parts of the British Isles have sharply different paternal histories; the degree of population replacement and genetic continuity shows systematic variation across the sampled areas." A Y Chromosome Census of the British Isles (pdf) Ironically, it may be Viking genetic influence and not Anglo-Saxon which has had a more profound impact on paternal British bloodlines, or it could very well have been a combination of both groups.
Shouldn't this paragraph be rewritten with Brython instead of British? FilipeS 21:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The term Brython was coined as an alternative to "ancient Briton" to avoid confusion: I've tried to make the paragraph clearer, and to fit the Brythonic kingdoms in SE Scotland who were conquered by Angles, as well as allowing for the Cumbric kingdoms who retained their language until 11th century absorption into Scotland, with part of the territory later becoming NW England. ... dave souza, talk 21:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  British or Brython? 

message: Belgae DNA Modal & Nordic-Celtic Project
I have come up we this - Belgae DNA Modal through my Nordic-Celtic DNA project (1008 members).
http://www.ysearch.org/lastname_view.asp?uid=&letter=&lastname=Belgae&viewuid=AX6GA&p=0
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Nordic-Celtic
Investigating the contribution that archaeology has made to accounts of human evolution
Accounts of human evolution usually revolve around well-publicised discoveries of the bony remains of our ancestors. These do allow us to piece together our family tree and to paint - at least in broad outline - a picture of the ancestors who appear on that tree. But it is the archaeological record that preserves actual traces of our ancestors' activities and intuition suggests that these ought to be fundamental to our accounts of human evolution. However, this is far from being the case and this project is designed to explore why this is so.
Masters Thesis
I would like to enroll into the Masters Thesis Research Degree
This is a link to my Research:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Nordic-Celtic
I could also research to what degree of social assimilation occurred between native European groups of people throughout the history of Australia - through dna?
The focus of the project is to gather a representation of evidence and interest in Native Scandinavians and Native Celtic-Iberians found in ‘all’ parts of Australia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.27.247.252 (talk) 13:22, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Belgae DNA Modal & Nordic-Celtic Project 

message: === Why is this pedophiliac agenda being brought in here? ===
This constant repetition of the claim that the Celts practiced ritual pederasty is disingenous.  One or two claims by Greeks are a long way from being proof.  Many Greek and Roman observers have been proven wrong about many assertions made about the Celts, in several cases it's quite apparent that they were attempting to slander them.  There is no proof of ritual pederasty, the persistant inclusion here seems to be part of an agenda, and very POV.
Drifter bob 21:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The only thing that is disingenuous is your evident desire to suppress this information, presumably because it offends you in some way. It's not a "slander", since ancient Mediterranean cultures were known to practice pederasty. It's just a note to a source concerning sexual mores, about which we have little information, but if you have more add it. Paul B 11:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually there is plenty of historical evidence that it could be literally a slander.  Regardless of the fact thast pederasty was practiced it was often criticised, Julius Caesar was mocked by political enemies for example early in his career for his alleged "age differentiated" homosexual relationship with Nicomedes IV of Bithynia.  Tiberius was widely reviled for his extreme practices of pederasty at his retreat on Capri, rumors of these activities seriously undermined his popularity.  I also don't have to point out that many greek writers were critical of the practice.  So while an accepted practice, certainly, in Greek and particularly Roman culture, it was clearly still looked upon as a moral lapse by some, and there is documented proof of accusations of this activity being used to slander individuals and groups for political purposes. Drifter bob 14:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would add that  if the Romans told stories that the Celts flew to war on the backs of winged ponies, this would be worth adding, mainly because outsiders' views of the Celts are interesting in themselves.  When Caesar was assassinated, stories were put about that the tombs of Rome opened and the dead walked the streets.  I strongly believe this to be false, but that's no reason to exclude it from Wikipedia. garik 11:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  To continue your analogy, I would not object to this quote of walking dead from a primary source, but if it was followed by a claim that zombies were commonplace in many parts of the world at this time, I would find that a bit odd.  Drifter bob 14:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  there is nothing wrong with putting in the quote, what I have a problem with is the extensive interpretation of it, and the claim about so called "age structured homosexuality" being a common practice throughout Celtic cultures on the basis of this one piece of evidence. Drifter bob 14:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But is such a claim being made?  The article notes that "age-structured homosexuality" was a common practice in pre-Christian European cultures.  This is not the same as saying common throughout Celtic cultures — they could easily be an exception (although they also may not be).  I agree that this claim does need a separate source.  Is it based solely on evidence of Greek and Roman practice? In fact, the whole section needs to be far better sourced: including your point about attitudes towards women.  Accurate or not, we can't include original research here. garik 15:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  I agree with both of you all the claims need to be sourced including mine, I anticipated that.  Good sources (including primary sources) do exist for all these points, I encountered them during other research projects I have worked on, but it will take me a little while to dig them up.  Please bear with me for a short period and I will document this fully.  Drifter bob 17:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text: While the ancient Greeks were hostile to the Celts, they were not hostile to pederasty. And I'm sorry to say that a lot of what we know about the peoples of Antiquity comes from biased, even hostile commentators. There just aren't any local sources to rely upon. FilipeS 15:09, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Athenaeus on Celtic pederasty

message: This constant repetition of the claim that the Celts practiced ritual pederasty is disingenous.  One or two claims by Greeks are a long way from being proof.  Many Greek and Roman observers have been proven wrong about many assertions made about the Celts, in several cases it's quite apparent that they were attempting to slander them.  There is no proof of ritual pederasty, the persistant inclusion here seems to be part of an agenda, and very POV.
Drifter bob 21:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The only thing that is disingenuous is your evident desire to suppress this information, presumably because it offends you in some way. It's not a "slander", since ancient Mediterranean cultures were known to practice pederasty. It's just a note to a source concerning sexual mores, about which we have little information, but if you have more add it. Paul B 11:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually there is plenty of historical evidence that it could be literally a slander.  Regardless of the fact thast pederasty was practiced it was often criticised, Julius Caesar was mocked by political enemies for example early in his career for his alleged "age differentiated" homosexual relationship with Nicomedes IV of Bithynia.  Tiberius was widely reviled for his extreme practices of pederasty at his retreat on Capri, rumors of these activities seriously undermined his popularity.  I also don't have to point out that many greek writers were critical of the practice.  So while an accepted practice, certainly, in Greek and particularly Roman culture, it was clearly still looked upon as a moral lapse by some, and there is documented proof of accusations of this activity being used to slander individuals and groups for political purposes. Drifter bob 14:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would add that  if the Romans told stories that the Celts flew to war on the backs of winged ponies, this would be worth adding, mainly because outsiders' views of the Celts are interesting in themselves.  When Caesar was assassinated, stories were put about that the tombs of Rome opened and the dead walked the streets.  I strongly believe this to be false, but that's no reason to exclude it from Wikipedia. garik 11:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  To continue your analogy, I would not object to this quote of walking dead from a primary source, but if it was followed by a claim that zombies were commonplace in many parts of the world at this time, I would find that a bit odd.  Drifter bob 14:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  there is nothing wrong with putting in the quote, what I have a problem with is the extensive interpretation of it, and the claim about so called "age structured homosexuality" being a common practice throughout Celtic cultures on the basis of this one piece of evidence. Drifter bob 14:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But is such a claim being made?  The article notes that "age-structured homosexuality" was a common practice in pre-Christian European cultures.  This is not the same as saying common throughout Celtic cultures — they could easily be an exception (although they also may not be).  I agree that this claim does need a separate source.  Is it based solely on evidence of Greek and Roman practice? In fact, the whole section needs to be far better sourced: including your point about attitudes towards women.  Accurate or not, we can't include original research here. garik 15:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  I agree with both of you all the claims need to be sourced including mine, I anticipated that.  Good sources (including primary sources) do exist for all these points, I encountered them during other research projects I have worked on, but it will take me a little while to dig them up.  Please bear with me for a short period and I will document this fully.  Drifter bob 17:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is this pedophiliac agenda being brought in here? 

message: One quote from one outsider from a culture hostile to the celts (Greek) does not qualify as proof of the alleged "historical" nature of Celtic pederasty.  In all the volumes of celtic mythology which survive, there are no references to this practice, unlike the reams of evidence from Greece, Rome, or among the Samurai of Japan for example.  You are entitled to your opinions, beliefs, and political agendas, but please don't put your beliefs into an historical article as if they were facts.  It is a fact that Athenaeus made the comment that he made, it is not by any means a fact that this means his comment was accurate or that this was the reality among the Celts.  Until you have proof quit putting this on the page.
Drifter bob 01:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While the ancient Greeks were hostile to the Celts, they were not hostile to pederasty. And I'm sorry to say that a lot of what we know about the peoples of Antiquity comes from biased, even hostile commentators. There just aren't any local sources to rely upon. FilipeS 15:09, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Celtic pederasty