Talk:Price–Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act/Alltalk

message: If nuclear power related legislation  not specifically related to Price-Anderson gets signed into law, a paragraph will be placed in Nuclear Power 2010 Program. Simesa 18:01, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Energy Bill of 2005

message: Cut from into:
:It also makes available a pool  of insurance funds to compensate people who are injured or incur damages from a nuclear or radiological incident.
During the Mediation, one or more people said that this sentence was a problem. Uncle Ed 13:52, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
::Ben said so, but it's better than the inaccurate line "The Act promises taxpayer-backed indemnity for extraordinary nuclear incidents while providing for limited compensation to victims". Simesa 00:03, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute over pool 

message: I did a third archive. Everything here is "post moderated" if that makes sense. --Woohookitty 20:55, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Archiving

message: Simesa mentioned this on the moderated talk but just so its here too...the article should be reprotected when Ed leaves for a week or else chaos will ensue, I assure you. :) "Inmates running the asylum" is a good term for it. --Woohookitty 00:39, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Note for Ed

message: Let's not be hasty and start accusing each other of things like:
*over-zealously applying text moves.
*gaming the system
It takes a while to get used to the new rules. We might want to adopt a convention which says that when A moves some text which B wrote (or otherwise approves), then B is not allowed to replace it with something similar. Rather, A and B both should agree on a formulation which satisfies them both. 
And maybe even C should be the one to replace the mutually acceptable version. 
Try to work it out. Aim for unbiased text which does not take sides but which describes both sides. Uncle Ed 01:36, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
:Respectfully, I stand by my original statement.  Do you disagree that those kinds of edits are counter to the text move rules you established?  I ask not to be obstreperous but to have a clear ruling on how exactly we are to interpret your rules.  Is it considered a "revert" of a text move if we reword a sentence to use different words that convey the same meaning of a disputed item that was moved prior? · Katefan0(scribble) 02:59, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
:My only problem is...as we've said before...this article is already mostly criticism. So we're walking a fine line here. The language that Ben wants is going to have to not sound like criticisms of Price-Anderson. Otherwise, we're going to take a tilted article and make it into a near diatribe. I wish myself that we would ban the buzzwords I mentioned earlier because they don't get us anywhere. They are just derisive and dividing. --Woohookitty 02:36, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: New rules

message: Removed to Discussion "all nuclear reactors and" as redundant Simesa 09:16, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Redundant Phrase

message: We probably all should read  Simesa 16:57, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wales Article on Wikipedia

message: The President signed the Energy Policy Act of 2005 today - Price-Anderson extension to 2025 was in there. Simesa 20:01, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Price-Anderson Extended 

message: There being no one paragraph in the Supreme Court decision to quote, how about this for "How the law works":
:In the Act, power reactor licensees are required to have $300 million worth of primary insurance as of 2005.  Also, each power reactor must pay up to $95.8 million in the event any of them has an accident. The pool of money — which as of 2004 stood at about $10 billion — is contributed by the nuclear industry.  In the event that claims deplete the pool of funds, the Congress of the United States is required to consider covering the excess amounts, possibly by establishing additional assessments against the industry. 
:Price-Anderson covers DOE facilities and contractors such as the USEC uranium enrichment plants, national laboratories and the Yucca Mountain disposal site.
:Nuclear insurance pools have paid $151 million ($70 million of which was related to the 1979 Three Mile Island meltdown) and the DOE $65 million since Price-Anderson was enacted.
Simesa 07:25, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: How the law works

message: It appears that Ed Poor has quit Wikipedia (see his talk page).  I recommend that we seek another mediator at RFM. · Katefan0(scribble) 17:19, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There seemingly being no way to continue with Uncle Ed, I have applied for a new Mediator.  We should all read wp:rfm. Simesa 00:38, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'll be taking over the mediation.  See below.  Ral315 WS 03:55, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  For what it's worth, he will be missed - flaws and all. Benjamin Gatti
I didn't really quit: I was just having a bad day. In any case, there's a new Mediator on duty now. Anything I say from this point on is in my private capacity as an ordinary contributor. Uncle Ed 18:40, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation 

message: That we're getting right back into bickering. Mr. Mediator, what would you like for us to do? Uncle Ed had us try using a separate mediation page. Not alot of came of it, but I think it'd be more useful than just continually bickering here. I still think we should just go to arbcom and finish this, but that's just my opinion. --Woohookitty 04:27, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just afraid that I'll be 45 years old and we'll still be discussing whether or not the GAO is an authoritative resource. It just never ends. --Woohookitty 04:36, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologize for not responding in a while...I've been watching what you've been suggesting with interest.  To be perfectly frank, I don't think that ArbCom will take your case; ArbCom usually doesn't deal with content disputes, and you've all been very civil about the article.  Ral315 WS 18:09, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Since you came aboard, yes. :-D It's actually been more civil than it was initially. --Woohookitty 01:39, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: I'm afraid

message: The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) protects investors in nuclear power plants from liability, even for criminal neglect, for the death and destruction caused by nuclear incidents such as Chernobyl. The act currently provides indemnity to all nuclear facilities (except Navy aircraft carriers and submarines) constructed in the United States before 2026.  The Act as been recognized by the United States Supreme Court as a requirement for the private generation of nuclear energy in the United States. In addition, the Supreme Court found  that the risk of a major nuclear accident has not been eliminated by 40 years of research and testing. Environmental groups, consumer groups and taxpayer watchdogs as well as the Department of Energy have described the act as a transfer of wealth from those who earn it (taxpayers) to those who own it (investors). Benjamin Gatti
:I'd say you are trying to cram your entire POV, unbalanced, into the first paragraph.  I strongly prefer the current Intro over the above.  "Private generation" isn't all the Act is necessary for.  Criminal neglect is still speculative (it wasn't, for example, a factor at TMI), and if "wholesale irradiation" were possible in U.S. plants the NRC wouldn't have mandated only a 10 mile Emergency Planning Zone.  One agency (the EIA) of the DOE described it as a subsidy - but there has been no "transfer of wealth" as the government has never paid a dime for commercial plants' incidents, and it's very unlikely it will ever have to. Simesa 20:08, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The burden of proof is easy, read the first line of the Supreme Court's decision: "The Price-Anderson Act (Act), having the dual purpose of protecting the public [including from incidents at DOE facilities] and encouraging the development of the nuclear energy industry..." (my text in brackets).  If we were to list one thing that the Act would cover, then we should list all the incidents it would cover: a very long laundry list.  I disagree with your somewhat twisted reasoning - no costs have been added to anyone, no other energy producer has paid anything for Price-Anderson.  Market fairness is a subsidiary issue to be dealt with in Criticisms.  "Unsafe" is stil your POV not borne out by the IPE examinations, "dirty" is relative (ever worked around coal?).  And are you really claiming that wealth was transferred away from you specifically?  So now you believe you do have a fiduciary interest in this?  Simesa 02:07, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Intro 

message: Some stats to consider (commenting on size, not substance)
Introduction: 77 words
: A pretty good length, I think.  Ral315 (talk)
Background: 367 words
: It could be longer, but doesn't need to be if it explains the act fully.  Ral315 (talk)
How the law works: 178 words
: Good length.  Ral315 (talk)
Criticisms: 553 words
: Obviously, this is a problem for many (all?) of you.  If we could boil this down to about 300 words, that would be great.  Ral315 (talk)
I've set up a temp page for editing:  Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act/Temp.  As this is a page invisible to the public, feel free to make sweeping changes.  But note that the ONE-REVERT RULE is still in effect there.  The main article will be unprotected when I feel that we've hit a consensus, or everyone involved wants it unprotected.  Ral315 (talk) 05:06, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Amazing. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 05:46, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected. 

message: Okay, I made a first proposed change. Simesa 11:40, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  How the law works 

message: "Protecting" a page on account of 1 to 2 edits a week amounts to censorship. Regardless of the subject or any other thing - it is antithetical to the spirit of wikipedia, and not supported by any published policy. I must therefore object. For comparison, the GWBush page is vandalized about twice a second, but remains open for business nonetheless. A double standard here can only be explained by bias or elitism, and the use of censorship to effect either of those is inconsistent with cooperative nature of wikipedia.. Benjamin Gatti
: Simple vandalism can be reverted easily.  This is a content dispute, and I'm using the protection not to censor anyone, but rather to encourage open discussion and editing on the temp page.  Ral315 (talk) 14:32, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, for what it's worth, I had never heard of the Price-Anderson Act prior to this mediation, and my knowledge of nuclear energy was virtually zero.  Ral315 (talk) 14:45, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Ral, I'm with ya. I had no idea what it was either. And yes, protection in this case is because people (and it wasn't just you Ben) were making edits without consensus, which defeats the purpose of mediation. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 16:51, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Objection to Censorship 

message: I rewrote Criticisms - for the first two paragraphs the changes were minor.
But I'm amazed - no one else objected to the line "Like all subsidies, Price Anderson raises the price of its target commodity by forcing the market to make poor decisions."???  Subsidies immediately lower the price of commodities. If we want to discuss long-term effects of subsidies, we'd need a fairly comprehensive study to cite, as it's not always true that subsidies raise prices in the long-term (windmills, for example).
"Strong financial incentive"?  A reload is $150 million.  Plants should cost about $1.5 billion.  Even the top number, $33 million, if the U.S. government were to charge it, is hardly a deciding factor.
The next line, "The costs of Nuclear energy were grossly underexagerated, and have in fact turned out to be more expensive and dangerous than clean, safe alternatives, such as wind power" is just a commercial for renewables with no impact on Price-Anderson, so I cut it.  (As an aside, nuclear did become far more expensive due to huge building delays when the post-Three Mile Island modifications had to be incorporated, but those modifications - and more - are incorporated up-front now.)
I get the feeling that we are missing some valid criticisms, but I'll have to go back and compare to the current article. Mediation isn't a negotiation as to "what I can get in", it's a decision process as to what should be in.Simesa 08:23, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticisms

message: I'm reverting because of the following objections to the following lines:
The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) eliminates public safety laws in all fifty states 
:Nonsense, Title 10 of the Code of Federal Regulations covers nuclear safety.
and protects criminally negligent nuclear operators from being held financially responsible for criminal acts 
:The Supreme Court said "the utility itself would probably suffer the largest damages", and criminal law is enhanced, not reduced.
The Act makes it a crime for private persons to protect themselves against a nuclear event by insuring their own property against an explosion at a nuclear energy plant. 
:No it doesn't - the situation there is that the industry has already bought up all the insurance available, as required by the Act.
In the event that a corporation commits a criminal act which leads to wide-spread devastation similar to Chernobl, taxpayers and victims, rather than  the corporation will be held financially responsible for the damage. 
:The reactors will be liable for at least $10 billion, but this statement is partially correct - but since Chernobyl was vastly unlike any U.S. power plant, it doesn't belong in the intro.
The Act is part of the Energy Policy of President George W. Bush.
:So what?  Congress passed the Energy Policy Act of 2005 with bi-partisan support, why mention Bush but not that?
Simesa 04:56, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep. Again, the problem is that some of edits go so far into POV land that they are unrecoverable. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 08:33, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert of 10/31/05 3 am UTC 

message: We're now up to 384K total in talk on this subject. We have 2 very small (8K) archived pages. Not sure why. I also think we've reached the point (7 archives) where there is value in making one big archive that users can go to as well. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 19:28, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. I consolidated the archives a little since one was too short and 2 were out of order (i.e. talk 2 should've been talk 3 and vice versa). All fixed now. I didn't delete or move anything...just between pages so I could get the order right. Thank me. lol --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 19:45, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And now we have one big ass archive that covers all of the discussions back to June 26th. Now, we're missing the talk from when we had that separate mediation page, but oh well. We have enough. lol --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 20:00, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: I archived today

message: ::::Hi Ben. I was not intending to express ambivalence, nor argue that it was desirable to alter ordinary trading rules, rather trying to summarise what I saw. My impression of the act is as I said, that the consequences for individuals after an accident do not appear to be different despite the acts varying of normal rules. The government would be left to carry the can, either way. But as I also said, the distinction seems to be that the act is intended to encourage private companies to enter the market. In that sense, it merely enables a decision already made by the US government. I do see lots of scope to argue about whether that decision was good or bad. But the act in itself seems to be simply a factual subject.
::::The article seems to allude to subsidies enjoyed by Nuclear generators in as much as they do not have to carry their own liability insurance. I am not sure exactly how this works in the US, but I think in the UK nothing would stop you entering business with inadequate insurance. You would just be bankrupted when a disaster happened. Or someone might get a court injunction to stop your activities, if they could prove you were doing something immediately harmful to someone. If I was planning to do something like this then I would just create a company and get on with it. The problem would be obtaining permission to build it. But in the UK all nuclear power generation has been done by government, anyway. This kind of argument simply did not arise, as the Government is always its own insurer of last resort. Creating a legal structure which allows a private company to side-step insurance worries seems quite sensible if it is assumed that there is a small risk of an extraordinarily big bill. Normal insurance averages risks, and can not cope with that situation. I would not accept that avoiding vast insurance premiums amounted to a subsidy, unless it could be demonstrated before hand that these bills were certain. That is the normal standard applied to companies.
::::Now, if you are arguing that nuclear power has received other 'unfair' subsidies, then yes, it has. Again, I know more about the UK than the US. Development has first been driven by the need to develop nuclear technology to further bomb production, and second by the strategic importance of having alternative sources of energy not reliant on steady supplies of fossil fuels. I believe the US power program was originally based upon military propulsion reactors, and the investment needed to create them? Several UK governments have fallen/suffered due to energy supply problems. The UK nuclear power industry has now been privatised, but is essentially bankrupt and has had to be bailed out repeatedly for political and resource reasons. Despite massive trust funds for dealing with the problems of decomissioning, it has not even managed to make an operating profit. Nonetheless, the UK government is currently considering embarking on a new building program, for strategic reasons as the current reactors are reaching the ends of their working lives. 
::::The principle argument currently being pushed in the UK for Nuclear power is that it does not release massive amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. There is plenty of fossil fuel available to the world, but this argument is steadily gaining ground, apparently everywhere except the USA. From the UK, the US seems addicted to cheap energy. All fossil fuel burning comes at an environmental price, and presently absolutely no one is paying properly that price. Saying that the nuclear industry has a special indemnity against damages claims in some ways only puts it on the same footing as the fossil generating industry, which has never had to indemnify properly against pollution. Who will pay out if sea level rise floods New York? I have argued in a circle here a bit, since I seem to have returned to the issue of insurance.
::::Personally, I agree that we could use vastly more renewable energy resources than we do, that we would very probably be doing so now if the same amount of subsidy had been directed towards developing them as has been directed towards nuclear. But I am not entirely sure in what way people want to add or remove this background debate from this particular article. Sandpiper 20:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Act III Enter Sandpiper, Simesa exit stage far right 

message: ::Mike, the RfC is legit. The fact that you deleted my response and ate the evidence is a burden on your own conscience. Benjamin Gatti
:::Do you have to argue *everything*? Look. The fact it was "legit" is your opinion. But the fact that it was deleted by an admin (when he didn't have to) without any question tends to tell me that it wasn't. The RfC wasn't live. It was on my personal page. And it's not a burden on my conscience. I'm perfectly ok with it, thank you. Now your RfC was bogus. This article is in its 2nd mediation. Requests for comment is the first step to handle disputes. It was done way back in June. That's how Kate (and eventually I) got involved. Mediation is the 2nd step. It makes 0 sense to go back to the 1st step in the middle of the 2nd. It was a revenge tactic. Period. Now why don't we drop this since neither of us is going to change our mind. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 05:27, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the RfC still seems to be there, and pragmatically it seems to me to make sense that getting more people involved would, at least, more easily demonstrate what is a consensus. Sandpiper 20:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, your voice is welcome. I wish you fortitude, however, in deciphering what all is the matter. ;) · Katefan0(scribble) 20:55, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Tripe and Trivia

message: I will be on the road and away from internet access until Monday nght. Simesa 03:28, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I wish I was as well. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 05:27, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikibreak 

message: I was going to give you a quick summary of what's happened here, but instead, I'd suggest reading the archives. Yes, everything you mentioned has been said in one form or another. At this point, we've drawn lines in the sand. This is our 2nd mediation and yet, nothing has changed since I got involved back in June. And just for quick background, Katefan0 and I are administrators...Simesa is a former nuclear engineer who became a whistleblower...and Ben is a very pro-renewable energy advocate. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 05:51, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sandpiper 

message: "As with banks, claims above the insurance are required to be backed by the U.S. Congress. "
Yes - Bank accounts have some insurance, but it is limited to $100,000 per accountholder. This means that taxpayers are on the hook for an amount which is both finite and calcuable. Accountholders * $100,000. Price Anderson, on the other hand does not insure the first 100,000, it insures after the threshold is reached. Thus the taxpayer is exposed to an infinite risk, moreover, the institutional investors are protected. I'm not sure that if a bank goes under, its own investors are protected by the FDIC. I think the resources of the bank are consumed, and then the FDIC picks up whatever is necessary (Up to the threshold) - after which nothing. quite a different kettle of fish, and I object to the false analogy. Benjamin Gatti
:I do not see that this act would protect the owners of a nuclear plant. Technically it might, but they would be unlikely to be allowed to continue in business having demonstrated a glaring danger in their plant. They could hardly sell off a closed down plant second hand. They would still have the expense of getting rid of it. The Price act may say explicitly that congress has to do something if the bill is bigger than anticipated, but this is also true of banks, even if not explicitly stated. If the failure of a bank was so serious as to threaten the rest of the economy, then the government would be forced to step in and pay for whatever had to be done to make the system safe again. No difference, really. Sandpiper 10:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  text move = banks 

message: The page has been unprotected, and the temp page's history has been merged into here.  I think it looks a lot better, and I think we have some more work to do, but we're on our way.  Here's a quote from someone I asked to look at the article:
:the current version needs citations for the POV references "irresponsible behavior" and "are generally fully liable for difficulties that their products cause".  All accidents are not due to irresponsible behavior.  Many businesses are not liable for difficulties they have disclosed in warning labels...
I think there are a few areas that need citations, definitely.  One other thing I'd ask is what other problems editors have with this article.  Ral315 (talk) 07:38, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oi vey. I really don't think this is a good idea. Why? Because Ben is very good at acting like he's being cooperative and then when we unprotect the article, we go right back to extremely POV edits like we did tonight or he attempts to revert things that we agreed to during the protected period. It's the 3rd time that this article has been protected and then unprotected and Ben has done this every time. I kind of wish we'd discuss it before unprotecting. This is getting very old. This is just the latest in the long line of ridiculously POV edits that he's put up. He's very good at acting sincere as if he's going to be helpful now but then we just go back to the same old same old.  Next time, please ask everyone first before unprotecting it. I know you aren't required to do so, but it would save us alot of headaches. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 09:31, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page unprotected 

message: I object to the following:
===suspends protection===
*"is an act suspending public protections against nuclear corporations" -- Discussed before, 10CFR applies.  
**Are you saying its factually inaccurate?
*** Mediator: I'm not sure about whether this should stay or go.  Ral315 (talk) 04:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, I won't get better than this.  I think a lot of what was inserted is POV.  Some of it is good, some of it is okay.  But a lot was POV.  That's my honest opinion, regardless of my personal beliefs about the act (it sounds to me like Price-Anderson is stupid, even if well-meaning, but I'd nevertheless try to keep this NPOV).  Ral315 (talk) 04:27, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

text: That isn't quite the NPOV policy. Sources used must be attributable AND fair. In other words, an article that has 28 sources attributed but they all represent one side of the debate is still a POV article. Attribution isn't enough. "Articles should be written without bias, representing all majority and significant minority views fairly. This is the neutral point of view policy." That's the basis of NPOV right from the official policy. So no, POV is not necessarily OK as long as it is attributed. That's a very common misconception. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 14:44, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert of 7 Nov evening 

message: *"is an act suspending public protections against nuclear corporations" -- Discussed before, 10CFR applies.  
**Are you saying its factually inaccurate?
*** Mediator: I'm not sure about whether this should stay or go.  Ral315 (talk) 04:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: suspends protection

message: *"The act was passed because the risk of a nuclear disaster is sufficiently great that neither the nuclear corporations nor the insurance industries are willing to be held responsible for a potential nuclear holocaust." -- While technically correct this is grossly misleading; the correct statement is that the risk in non-Soviet-built plants is tiny but non-zero.
**I would like to see a direct replacement for this sentence - this is a critical sentence, which everyone agree is accurate. Your opinion that it overstates the case is your POV
*** Mediator: We shouldn't use "nuclear holocaust", really, as it's a media-like term that doesn't really mean what people think it means.  The rest of the sentence could use a bit better structure.  Ral315 (talk) 04:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: risk sufficiently great

message: *"This means that children who experience Malformation, Death, Growth Retardation, Severe Mental Retardation, Intellectual deficit, or experience heritable changes in their reproductive organs which could impact their own children " -- inflammatory, to say the least. In the U.S., TMI caused none of these.
**All word for word quotes from the army manual on the effects of nuclear exposure on a fetus. duly cited.
*** Mediator: Just because it's true doesn't mean it belongs in the article, just like the exact wording of the bill doesn't belong in the article.  And to insert this makes the article blatantly POV, especially considering none of these have happened as a result of the bill.  Ral315 (talk) 04:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: medical risks

message: *"could not expect to be reimbursed" -- this is baloney, PAA always pays and Congress is required to act.
**The Act prevents reimbursement for pain, suffering, loss of consortium, punative damages necessary to discourage dangerous behavior and the right of a jury to set the proper value of reimbursement etc ... Y/N?
*** Mediator: It's badly worded.  Even if it does limit some reimbursement, it doesn't flat-out block reimbursement, which is what it implies here.  Ral315 (talk) 04:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: no reimbursement for loss

message: *"even if it were the result of criminal activity." -- always have to imply the utilities are dirty, don't we.
**What kind of industry asks to be indemnifyied for criminal activity? If the shoe fits.
*** Mediator: Doesn't fit.  We're supposed to present the information and let the reader deduce what they want, not steer them toward different beliefs.  Ral315 (talk) 04:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: criminal activity

message: *"The Act is broadly viewed as enabling private nuclear reactors to unfairly compete with clean safe energy, such as Wind power" -- as phrased, this belongs in Criticisms, or in a commercial.
**let's say we drop "unfairly" and just say "compete"? better?
*** Mediator: Without unfairly, this might work, but I'd have to see how it flowed.  Ral315 (talk) 04:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: unfair competition

message: : I agree, I won't get better than this.  I think a lot of what was inserted is POV.  Some of it is good, some of it is okay.  But a lot was POV.  That's my honest opinion, regardless of my personal beliefs about the act (it sounds to me like Price-Anderson is stupid, even if well-meaning, but I'd nevertheless try to keep this NPOV).  Ral315 (talk) 04:27, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That isn't quite the NPOV policy. Sources used must be attributable AND fair. In other words, an article that has 28 sources attributed but they all represent one side of the debate is still a POV article. Attribution isn't enough. "Articles should be written without bias, representing all majority and significant minority views fairly. This is the neutral point of view policy." That's the basis of NPOV right from the official policy. So no, POV is not necessarily OK as long as it is attributed. That's a very common misconception. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 14:44, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: discussion

message: The company (or companies) I was a whistleblower against is/are no longer in the nuclear industry. Simesa 01:45, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note 

message: I was copyediting the article and changed the sentence containing the heading above. This was firstly because the sentence makes better sense if it mentions the exception first, then the balancing reason held by the supreme court afterwards. I rephrased it to  'risk of harm'. 
However, I am mentioning it here because it strikes me that it must be wrong, either way. My impression is not that the case was about risk to the public, but about legislation granting a special exemption to the companies, so treating the public differently.  In which case the sentence ought to say something like 'loss of protection', or more NPOV  'unique means of compensation'. (I have the impression the constitution would have no objection to people being treated equally badly)  Sandpiper 11:38, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  burden of those who would potentially be harmed. 

message: I was under the impression that no fault liability was a good thing, since it was not necesssary to prove who was to blame, therby making it easier to claim compensation. The article implies it is a bad thing. Assuming for the moment I am correct here, those who think there is a bad thing in there somewhere really mean that compensation is also limited somehow? The two points would be distinct. Sandpiper 11:38, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: No Fault Liability

message: In response to Sandpiper's question in Article History, the $300 million insurance is once per incident.  The $95.8 million from each power reactor (as opposed to a research reactor) should also be once per incident.  Simesa 17:46, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification  

message: Read this article as we have it right this instant. And tell me which side it favors. it sure as heck doesn't favor our side. It favors yours. And our side is not that nuclear is good. It's not that Price-Anderson is a wonderful law. It's that we have to present this law fairly and with balance. And frankly, to me, you are the one who keeps getting off subject, not me or our side. This isn't about right or wrong. It's not about what would happen if we had another attack. It's about fairly presenting the law. Simesa feels that way and so does Katefan0. You can call me stupid. You can call me whatever you want to. It's not going to change that fact. This is my last time engaging in a discussion with you that isn't about NPOV and making this article NPOV. I'm not engaging in any more tangents with you that just get us off topic. It's a waste of time. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 08:09, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: And do me a favor Ben

message: Thought it fair to consider your last suggestion of opening paragraph.
The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) replaces the liability protections against nuclear corporations.
ok so far.
 which may harm the public.
*perjorative. Raises the suggestion that this is exactly what it does. Not NPOV
**The Supreme Court has said there is a real risk of a nuclear disaster, we can use the actual language, or shorten it as here, but the finding of the Supreme Court stays, it will survive mediation, arbcom, or anything else you want to throw at it I'm sure.
The act was passed because the risk of a nuclear disaster is greater that either the nuclear corporations or the insurance industries are willing to accept. 
*Not true. It implies that both these industires expect a disaster. Obviously they do not. They  expect that little or nothing will happen. But there is a small risk that something very very serious could happen. They are not worrying about major parts of the US becoming uninhabitable, but about making a trading loss: that is the standard which they are concerned about.
**Straw man, you suggest that my text asserts falsly that major parts of the US would be uninhabitable. It doesn't. What is says is that the (potential) risk (redundant but if you prefer) is greater than the industry is willing to ensure. WRITING FOR THE ENEMY your side should suggest this, that due to the nature of the risk, the government decided insurance companies would simply go bankrupt if they were allowed to insure, and so the gov decided it would be the exclusive insurer of nulear risk, and indemnify everyone. (You'd need a source however).
***Then in the position of the enemy, I would sack you as copy writer, since you have missed the point. The point is that neither the government, nor the nuclear industry, nor the public, seriously expects any major accident to occur. If any of them did then there would be congressmen demanding plant closures, industrialists cancelling their contracts and mothballing their plants, and rioters in the streets. None of these people seriously expects any major accident. The sentence as you posted it implies a significant likelihood of a nuclear 'disaster', which is not the accepted view. Sandpiper 18:01, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Welcome to our world, man. :) --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 10:04, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: well, would you be here if it wasn't fun? Sandpiper 18:01, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Honestly, I don't find any of this or the other major dispute I'm involved in right now (the John Kerry article) fun. I wish I did. Refereeing is not enjoyable for me. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 18:47, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:   Ben's 3 day exercise. 

message: I have reinstated the pre-mediation intro, which seems to me to be much more NPOV than any of Benjamin's recent attempts. Simesa and Woohookitty and I had all agreed that it was a fair version.  Sandpiper, Ral, what do you think?  I would never say it's perfect, but it's a better starting point than the bloated, biased monstrosity Benjamin is working from. · Katefan0(scribble) 16:19, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  No ganging up on Ben. Appoint one person to represent the anti-Ben side and let that person speak in opposition. Rex071404(all logic is premise based) 00:03, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Rex, you have no clue what this is even about. We've been at this for 5 months. It's 3 people on one side and 1 on the other. You are just trying to spite me. Good god. If I could just run into a cooperative Wikipedian, I'd be a happy man. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 00:10, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Did no one tell you that the only cooperative wikipedian is a disintereted wikipedian, who never edits anything? Sandpiper 22:36, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I just did some minor grammatical stuff to the intro. It shouldn't be anything to get into a fuss over. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 17:23, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro 

message: In all this edit warring, everyone seems to have forgotten about specifying (a) that it is an Act of Congress in the United States and (b) what year it was passed in, in the intro.  Morwen - Talk 08:38, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: what, include facts? Sandpiper 09:50, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of the problem with doing that is that the conglomeration of statutes now known as Price-Anderson has been changed and added to by several other acts of Congress over the years. So while the initial language was enacted in '57, there have since been several other bills enacted to add to/modify the language as "Price-Anderson Act Amendments."  If we're goign to use that level of specificty (mostly with the year I guess), then we'd also need to mention all the other times it's been modified, since we're describing the law as it currently works. Or perhaps mention that it was first enacted in '57. Something like that. · Katefan0(scribble) 15:46, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well that's been an issue for awhile now. Because of all of the POVness, we haven't really been able to finish this article as it should be finished. I mean we've spent...what...2 months now on just the opening paragraph? --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 19:54, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Context

message: Because Price is a tool to address risk, it is incumbent that we express the risk. I have proposed we use the phrase "risk is higher than industry will accept. I think it is veryfiable and accurate, and while it doesn't say what the risk is, it defines it as accurately as is known. Benjamin Gatti 00:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why bury a new section in the middle of the discussion page?  And we've been over this before, and it's already treated in the consensus Intro. Simesa 00:49, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Defining risk

message: I have provided two sources which assert that the purpose of PAA is to address catastrophic incidents. It seems the case that PAA would not exists if the only threat of nuclear was an odd accident (of the TMI type) The concerns of congress, and of industry leading up to the PAA all contemplate the worst case scenario - and do not express the need for special legislation to address common industrial accidents.
Can we agree that PAA is an insurance scheme to cover the potential of a catastrophic nuclear incident?
# YES Benjamin Gatti 00:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: We've been over this before as well.  To imply that PAA covers only catastrophic incidents is incorrect. Simesa 00:51, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

text: That seems about the average for Benjamin's contributions. · Katefan0(scribble)/my ridiculous poll 15:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

text: It doesn't matter who said them. It depends how you use them. Shields implying something you hide behind; catastrophic implying something bad is going to happen as a result; taxpayer backed implying cost is shifted to the taxpayer and it will cost people money; victims of negligent and careless implying this is about protecting negligent and careless people, it is not and supreme court agreed; place burden on taxpayer, which the supreme court said it did not; criminal malfeasance, implying again the intent is to shelter criminals, also elsewhere explicitly said it is not as it is is merely protection from civil damages, and not even that since payment is made by the companies as well if not better under this act than otherwise, supreme court agreed. I havn't checked out which agency allegedly said this was a subsidy, so I don't know if this accurately represents their view, but I still suspect that the majority of the population is perfectly happy with it. You can't place a claim here which does not represent the balanced truth. This is a summary, you can explain at greater length later that various groups disagree with the majority opinion.Sandpiper 08:14, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree that this version is POV.  Again, the point of Wikipedia is not to tell of all the bad things that might happen in the case of a nuclear attack.  The point is to give an accurate representation of the law itself, taking into account nothing about our opinions on its effects on people, civil suits, or anything else.  Furthermore, the first paragraph of an article is, by definition, meant as an introduction to a topic, not a means to bombard the user with confusing statements.  Look at John F. Kennedy — the first paragraphs, while they do mention some positive and negative aspects of his presidency, they only give an introduction into the rest of the article, and the Cuban Missile Crisis, Bay of Pigs invasion, and all other events are discussed in detail later in the article.  I think everyone on both sides are forgetting that the first paragraph of the article is not supposed to be a dumping ground for everything we can say about Price-Anderson.  All the first paragraph should do is explain the subject, and slightly hint toward the rest of the article.  Ral315 (talk) 18:01, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Catastrophic Intent

message: The Atomic Energy Act Amendments of 1954, three years before Price-Anderson, was intended to spur the development of America's private nuclear power industry by allowing private industry to use atomic power for peaceful purposes, such as generating electricity. Prior to that act, the government had held a monopoly on the use of nuclear power. 
Private industry responded to the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 with the development of an experimental power plant constructed under the auspices of a consortium of interested companies. It soon became apparent that profits from the private exploitation of atomic energy were uncertain and the accompanying risks substantial. Although the AEC offered incentives to encourage investment, there remained in the path of the private nuclear power industry various problems - the risk of potentially vast liability in the event of a nuclear accident of a sizable magnitude being the major obstacle. Notwithstanding comprehensive testing and study, the uniqueness of this form of energy production made it impossible totally to rule out the risk of a major nuclear accident resulting in extensive damage. Private industry and the AEC were confident that such a disaster would not occur, but the very uniqueness of nuclear power meant that the possibility remained, and the potential liability dwarfed the ability of the industry and private insurance companies to absorb the risk. Thus, while repeatedly stressing that the risk of a major nuclear accident was extremely remote, spokesmen for the private sector informed Congress that they would be forced to withdraw from the field if their liability were not limited by appropriate legislation. 
To address this issue, the congress introduced the Price-Anderson act in 1957. This had the dual aim of removing the exposure of plant operators to unlimited financial risk in the event of a nuclear incident, but also to maintain or improve protection for the public. This act obliged companies to obtain $60 million of insurance cover against accidents, and provided an additional pool of $500 million from government funds to cover any losses not covered by the insurance. The companies were not liable for any further amounts. This act was intended to be temporary, and to expire in August 1967.
It became apparent that the industry would still be unable to obtain insurance privately, so the act was extended for a further 10 years in 1966. A provision was added which prevents companies from offering certain kinds of of defence to actions involving nuclear accidents. This was intended to make the process of suing a company easier, and to remove discrepancies in different states where different laws applied. It only applied to incidents where a significant escape of radioactive material was deemed to have occurred (an ENO, extraordinary nuclear occurrence).
In 1975 the act was again extended, up to 1987. The total amount of insurance remained the same, but a provision was added for each of the 60 or so reactor owners to contribute between $2 million and $5 million in the event of an uninsured accident. Insurance requirement for each individual company was increased to $140 million. These measures reduced the contribution of the federal government to the insurance pool. However, an explicit commitment was made that in the event of a larger accident, Congress would 'take whatever action is deemed necessary and appropriate to protect the public from the consequences'. 
In 1988 the act was extended for 15 years up to August 2002. Individual insurance for each generator was now increased to $200 million, and total fund to $9.5 billion. For each reactor owned, a company was liable to contribute up to £63 million towards compensation for any claim against any company, though this could only be recovered at a maximum rate of £10 million per year. Assessments were to be adjusted for inflation every 5 years. The same level of indemnity was provided for government DOE facilities, while small reactors (education and research) were obliged to obtain £250,000 insurance and had a government backed pool of £500 million in the event of accident. The act provided for all cases resulting from one incident to be heard in a federal court, rather than local courts. 
In February 2002 the act was extended to December 2003. It was extended to 2017 after some debate in 2003. The individual insurance for each site was increased to $300 million while fund contributions per reactor were increased to $95.8 million. In 2005 it was extended again  to 2025.
The constitutionality of the Price-Anderson Act was challenged in 1975 (Duke Power vs. Carolina Environmental Study Group, Inc.) and upheld by the Supreme Court in June, 1978.  The suit had challenged the act on two grounds — first, that it violated the Fifth Amendment because it did not ensure adequate compensation for victims of accidents, and that it violated the Fourteenth Amendment because it treats nuclear accidents differently to other accidents.  The court found: 
*it is clear that Congress' purpose was to remove the economic impediments in order to stimulate the private development of electric energy by nuclear power while simultaneously providing the public compensation in the event of a catastrophic nuclear incident. 
*The record supports the need for the imposition of a statutory limit on liability to encourage private industry participation and hence bears a rational relationship to Congress' concern for stimulating private industry's involvement in the production of nuclear electric energy.
*the Price-Anderson Act does, in our view, provide a reasonably just substitute for the common-law or state tort law remedies it replaces.
*The District Court's finding that the Act tends to encourage irresponsibility in matters of safety and environmental protection cannot withstand careful scrutiny, since nothing in the liability-limitation provision undermines or alters the rigor and integrity of the process involved in the review of applications for a license to construct or operate a nuclear power plant, and since, in the event of a nuclear accident the utility itself would probably suffer the largest damages. 
*We view the congressional assurance of a $560 million fund for recovery, accompanied by an express statutory commitment, to "take whatever action is deemed necessary [438 U.S. 59, 91] and appropriate to protect the public from the consequences of" a nuclear accident, 42 U.S.C. 2210 (e) (1970 ed., Supp. V), to be a fair and reasonable substitute for the uncertain recovery of damages of this magnitude from a utility or component manufacturer, whose resources might well be exhausted at an early stage.
*There is no equal protection violation, since the general rationality of the Act's liability limitation, particularly with reference to the congressional purpose of encouraging private participation in the exploitation of nuclear energy, is ample justification for the difference in treatment between those injured in nuclear accidents and those whose injuries are derived from other causes. 
Ok, I have inserted a new paragraph actually stating the date of PA and explaining the second reason for it, to improve compensation arrangements. Next, a history of each reenactment and what changed. Then, expanded the final paragraph reporting of the supreme court findings about the act. I have a problem in that there seems to be no mention of appeal against the 14th amendment. Was this quietly dropped, or is there another judgement as the one referenced deals with the appeal against the 5th? I think a new subsection break is needed immediately before staring to talk about the supreme court case. e.g ---Constitutional Challenge---. I think the relaxation of time limits to sue was in the same year as the removal of certain defences from companies, but I'm not sure. I also didn't find a reference to what just happened in the last renewal.Sandpiper 13:36, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Impressive research!  I believe the Act simply failed to cover all facilities licensed from 2002 to 2005 (it still covered all facilities already licensed).  Making a section break there sounds good.  The last renewal is covered in a reference to Energy Policy Act of 2005,  Title VI Subtitle A (all of Title VI is Nuclear, as is Subtitle E of Title IX). Simesa 16:02, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Background section 

message: Does anyone know what laws regulate insurance companies, and to the point of our article, whether in fact they might be forbidden by law from insuring events beyond their ability to pay out? This might go to the heart of the issue here, exactly  how insurance companies decide they can insure for $300 million, or whatever the exact sums have been in the past. Also, that they might conceivably effectively be forbidden by statute from offering to insure the nuclear industry as a whole. 86.141.58.72 19:17, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've posted a question in Insurance.  I'd ask American Nuclear Insurers (based in Connecticut), but you have to do that by snail mail.  A partial answer is in . Simesa 21:12, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not fully relevant either way for this reason: Insurance is a third party tool to address personal liability. Personal (ie corporate) liability extends to net worth - but not farther - it was the unwillingness of Industry to expose their own net worth to the risks of nuclear energy which brought on Price - Insurance companies merely provide the service of risk amalgamation. Benjamin Gatti 00:52, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: However the industry has been willing to accept a scheme whereby they provide $10 billion of insurance risk per incident spread amongst all of them. This suggests they do accept that the financial risk is acceptable once aggregated. Most industries proceed without bothering with vast insurance. Sandpiper 10:27, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Insurance Companies 

message: Hi ben, I noticed your slight amendment to the the opening paragraph. It has the merit of being, i would judge, literally true. However, I suspect that 'perceived risk' is truer, because the actual risks are unquantified. I am begining to think (see above query) that the real problem is the scale of the liability, rather than the precise risk. It also strikes me that the biggest hole in the PA act, is the fact that in the event of a truly awful accident, the underwriters of the insurance (the other power companies) could well themselves be in no financial condition to pay their contributions...having just been closed down. Still, I suppose it should be possible to squeeze $100 million from the wreckage of each company. After all, closing them all down at once would cause unacceptable electricity shortages.
To return to your most recent edit. The change has to be read in context of the rest of the paragraph. I might even consider it fair to slip the word 'catastrophe' into this clause, if it was saying something along the lines,'possible financial exposure from a worst-case disaster'. Ah, I have slipped 'possible' back in subconsciously, because it also needs to be clear it is a small risk of a really big problem. It is clear to me that congress has dismissed this risk as negligible: what is not clear to me is whether it really is. But the question here is whether this change would then make the paragraph acceptable to you, or whether you would insist upon further changes which would skew its meaning. 86.141.58.72 19:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Congress did not dismiss the risk, they contemplated and made explicit plans for it. I contest your unsourced assertion that he risk is "small", insignificant" or merely "perceived". The risk - such as it is - is a substantial barrier to the privatization of nuclear energy. Were it in fact as slight as you say - I can't imagine why it would be a real impediment. I think you don't get to have it both ways. It is large enough for industry to walk away from nuclear energy. That is pretty large really. Think of the risks of say - building an automobile, or a pacemaker, or a prescription drug. These are all large risks which industry will accept - Nuclear risk apparently is higher than those. That can hardly be dismissed as "perceived".
There is a small probability of a catastrophic nuclear incident - the risk (as in the term "risk/reward") is higher than industry (and investors - who measure risk/reward) - are willing to accept. I will insist on such language. Benjamin Gatti 00:49, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The noun 'probability' presumably has the same derivation as 'probable', but also encompasses the opposit meaning,'improbable'. It simply denotes a mathematical evaluation of the likelihood of an event. so a small probability risk may in fact be highly improbable. And I repeat, while the various lawmakers have discussed at very great length what is to be done in the event that this 'improbability' might take place, it is wholly explicit in their discussion that they do not expect it ever to happen. I can not realistically believe any set of lawmakers would deliberately legislate for nuclear power if they believed one of the reactors was actually going to explode. So, all this hot air is about something no one expects to happen. The alternative is that the legislators have created a clean up program for a political disaster which they expect to have to face, and politicians just do not do that sort of thing. Sandpiper 09:51, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not so, Nuclear incidents are expected at a rate of something like one every 10 thousand reactor years. With a thousand reactos, the chances are 1 in 10 for a given year. (Not sure of those numbers - but that is the general idea). Benjamin Gatti 17:11, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Risks, or perceived risks 

message: I notice Ben inserted some comments into the section about how the act works.
The law shields corporate interests from being sued by victims of careless, negligent, or even criminal actions so long as the method of damages include a radioactive component.   
   
The law makes energy more expensive by forcing the market to accept a higher cost product and passing on the additional costs in the form of a mandated transaction. 
I havn't considerd how this should be expanded, but my initial reactions to these additions is that the first is worth including, though in a more neutral way. The second does not seem to me to be supported by anything I have read. I have not seen anything saying anyone is obliged to buy electricity from nuclear generators, but more particularly PA, if it does anything, actually makes the electricity cheaper..it has been accused of being a subsidy not a tax.
:The first is already included in Criticisms.  I agree with you on the second. Simesa 12:50, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. - I again contacted American Nuclear Insurers about how they react in the event of an incident.  We have testimony about how they reacted during Three Mile Island, but without confirmation of today's practices I hesitate to put that into the article. Simesa 12:55, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  how the act works 

message: A subsidy is in effect a forced transaction at a higher total cost than the market (which seeks the lowest cost) would provide. Subsidies are monies in addition to the voluntary price added involuntarily - but paid in any case by the consumer (the taxpayer). The result is to raise the cost of energy (not at the point of purchase - but the bottom line all the same.) As to inclusion of this fact, if the pro side gets to say it enables nuclear energy (which is true)- than the criticism side gets to say that it does so by raising the cost of energy. Benjamin Gatti 15:52, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: yes, but PA does not raise the cost of energy. Government provides no funding under this act, nor does it compel anyone to buy anything at a false price. All it does it arrange a mutual underwriting scheme for nuclear companies.  Where is the subsidy?Sandpiper 20:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Subsidies by definition raise the cost. If they didn't raise the cost, they wouldn't have any effect. In order to underwrite the risk of an ENO, the US has to levy taxes. Those taxes (even if not spent this year) amount to an additional cost of energy. This subsidy is only part of a panapoly of subsidies for nuclear energy, and when you add them all up - you could for example discount thoses costs from gas taxes and show a reduction in the cost of energy. Moreover, if PAA were not discriminatory, a allowed anyone providing energy to have their risks coolesced more effecienctly and taxpayer backed (rather than going into the market price) then energy would be cheaper. The free market provides the lowest cost - distorting the market alway alway always raises the cost - its just a matter of figuring out where and how. Benjamin Gatti 22:37, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

text: right, then we are back to the question of how likely it is that an accident will happen which will cost more than the industry pool can provide. If this never happens, then the amount of this possible subsidy  is zeo. So whether or not there is a subsidy, and how great, depends on your view of how likely a 'catastrophic' accident will be. Aside from that, exactly how great is the subsidy currently enjoyed by fossil fueled power stations, in that they too are not obliged to pay for the pollution they produce. Then having determined both these numbers, which is greater? Sandpiper 00:23, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really; risk is a fungible commidity, and the value of PAA has been determined to be some 3 Billion per year - forcing wind energy operators to pay taxes without the benefits of Price Anderson risk mitigation increases the cost of wind power. The general public gets to pretend that risk doesn't have a cost, just like we get to pretend that social security is going be solvent when we retire (at no additional cost). Risk is something people choose to ignore.
Benjamin Gatti 01:25, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The law makes energy more expensive by forcing the market to accept a higher cost product and passing on the additional costs in the form of a mandated transaction.

message: I made some minor copyedits to Sandpiper's intro to make it a little less jargony/wordy in spots.  Nothing major.  Here's the new version:
::The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) is an act of the Congress of the United States. It provides protection to nuclear plant operators against damages sought as a result of a nuclear accident. Instead of this normal redress, the act establishes a pool of insurance funds from which no-fault compensation may be paid for injuries or damages caused by a nuclear or radiological incident. If an incident exceeds the pool's funds, Congress must consider appropriating more money. The effect of the act is to provide insurance to the nuclear industry that would not otherwise be available in the open market because of the risks inherent in nuclear power. The act currently covers all non-military nuclear facilities constructed in the United States before 2026. Some environmental, consumer and taxpayer watchdog groups, as well as one federal agency, have criticized the act as a government subsidy to the nuclear power industry and argue that it does not protect the public.
· Katefan0(scribble)/my ridiculous poll 04:51, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyedits to intro 

message: So no more saying the risk doesn't exist and pretending as though it doesn't exist. The supreme court said the risk is substantial, and that's that. Any other qualification of the risk will need a better source than the Supreme Court. (none exists) So until one of you files a suit and takes it to the Supremes, your going to have to live with "Substantial risk" Benjamin Gatti 17:21, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not so fast there - Mr. quote parser. The Supreme court asserted that "it was clear .. that the risk was substantial" but it only quotes the Industry (they of little bias) as "being confident" that the risk was remote. There is a world of difference between assertions made by the industry and facts asserted by the Supreme Court. I have never challenged as factual that the Industry claims to be safe. You can print that in bold letter at the head of every paragraph - I don't give a damn. But what the Supreme Court ITSSELF has found to be factual - is that the risk is substantial. I will insist that wherever the risk is quantified that the Supreme court's qualification be used - and not as the (see-no-danger) crowd would have it that we sweep "substantial" under the rug and pleasure ourselves by reporting only the facts consistent with our bias. Benjamin Gatti 21:08, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked the entire judgement for occurrences of the word substantial, and the only relevant mention I found was this paragraph above. It does not say what you claim it says. In fact it literally says as I discussed above. The entire paragraph is reporting the views of the industry: so if you would have it that the merely the industry is claiming it is safe, then it is also merely the industry maintaining there is substantial risk. I understand this apparent paradox as meaning that different risks are referred to. The high financial risk, and the low risk of an accident. The financial risk may have absolutely nothing to do with any nuclear risk at their plant: There is the tiny issue of borrowing billions of dollars to build a plant which you may then not be allowed to use for no reason within your control. 81.7.59.14 10:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grok this - Supreme court said the risk is substantial 

message: A revert war. I think that's the only thing we had avoided. Oi vey. I wish I had never gotten into this mess. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 16:49, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I've learned alot. There are just times when I wish I had told katefan0 (who first told me about this back in June) "no thanks". :) --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 17:57, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: great

message: Hi Ral, I reverted Constitutional challenge to Constitutional Challenge. However, I think I figured out what you were getting at. I checked a few articles and heading capitalisation varies, probably because no one else knows exactly the preferred style either. I havn't changed it back again, because under the circumstances it didn't seem a good plan to generate yet another edit. (and it is on my list of things to investigate) Sandpiper 18:03, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capitalisation 

message: Here we go again. We've now had 8 reverts in the last 24 hours. We're heading for a slew of 3RR violations. I'm going to ask for protection again. Both Sandpiper and I are lost because we have too much going on here. Let's slow down again. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 21:28, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, sorry, I didn't realize there were so many editors that were so keen on presenting the critic's view the old way. Let's try to resolve the disagreement(s) on the talk page. zen master T 21:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Zen, you are entering a hornet's nest here. I'd strongly suggest trying to read some of the archives or ask Sandpiper for help in getting up to speed, since he's relatively new to this too and just got up to speed himself. Otherwise, you are going to get lost and not necessarily add to the discussion. I mean we're in our 2nd mediation. We've literally had 4 protections. We have 500K of chat. Just a bit complex. :) --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 21:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Summarizing critics' views shouldn't be this contentious. If people think my change is too long we can shorten it, but "does not adequately protect the public" seems to errantly imply that act was trying to protect the public, which is false right? zen master T 21:45, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

text: some pages I know, you post a suggestion and come back a week later to see if anyones noticed, and no one has. Needs a day here for everyone to catch up (this is a world spanning debate, I think. Wonderful to get foreigners involved in things they had never heard of before). And before I get another edit conflict, I think it would be correct to say the secondary aim of the act was to protect the public. That was a stated aim, and once again was confirrmed by the supreme court both in intent and effect. read the article, its has quite a few facts.Sandpiper 21:48, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes zen, you really have to get up to speed here. Not being critical, but as a new person to this mess, you have no idea what we've been debating for the last 6 months. Hell, I barely know and I've been involved since (almost) day 1. Read the archives and get up to speed. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 21:50, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Zen, no, it's not false -- and in any case, it's not a valid argument with which to support the wording you seek.  Protecting the public was one of the two main stated reasons Congress enacted the thing in the first place, those being to enable the creation of a private nuclear power industry, and to protect the public by creating a pool of funds from which damages would be paid in the event of a nuclear accident.  Some critics argue that it does NOT protect the public, but that's only one view. The creators of the law clearly disagreed, so we can't argue that "does not adequately protect the public" is wrong because it's "false."  That's passing judgment on a point of dispute, which WP:NPOV compels us not to do. ·Katefan0(scribble)/mrp 21:51, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

text: The intro already covers all these points. · Katefan0(scribble)/mrp 22:02, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not as comming from critics and not directly nor explicitly. If because of this act the public has less rights and avenues for recourse in the advent of an accident we should state that directly, rather than watering it down with "does not adequately protect the public". What does "Instead of problematic resuls from claims in state cours..." mean anyway? Who exactly is alleging whatever is being alleged is "problematic"? That seems like the pro industry position to me (a caveat should be added for NPOV). zen master T 22:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm still catching up on all the comments, but I based "problematic" on the Supreme Court's statement "While in theory no legal limit would be placed on liability, as a practical matter the public would be less assured of obtaining compensation than under Price-Anderson. Establishing liability would depend in each case on state tort law and procedures, and these might or might not provide for no-fault liability." Simesa 23:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

text: If a specific company X has an accident does the public have the right to sue that company for damages and blame? The right to compensation is not equal to the right to sue. Making it easier for the public to recive the first $10 billion in damages was given at the expensive of the public losing the right they would normally have of being able to sue a specific company in state court, right? Feel free to argue moving the cases to federal is better in some way but in my interpretation critics disagree with you on that. Your argument seems very pro nuclear industry to me, shouldn't we let critics characterize their own argument? How about "critics argue it was wrong to force any future damage lawsuits out of state court and into federal court" or similar, would you have a problem with that, and if so, what is it? zen master T 23:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Because there are many criticisms. If you outline one, you must outline them all to be fair. Instead, it's best to stick to something inclusive -- critics assert that it doesn't adequately protect the public. Boom. Then outline them in more detail later. As I've said. · Katefan0(scribble)/mrp 23:10, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The outline in the article currently understates or tangenticizes the critics' views. Critics assert the act was "wrong" not that it was merely "inadequate". Boom. zen master T 23:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree on all points. · Katefan0(scribble)/mrp 23:24, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it possible some critics argue the act was/is "wrong"? Don't critics also argue it was wrong for the nuclear industry to get a big government subsidy which allows it to unfairly compete against other sources of energy, such as renewable energy? zen master T 23:32, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is perfectly possible that critics argue all sorts of things, including the most common paint colour for nuclear reactors. The thing is first, produce some specific examples with a strong public profile, and second, put them sensibly into a section which explains what each one is upset about. Sandpiper 00:21, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Critics do argue all sorts of things, which doubles the importance of not trivializing or downplaying their many allegations. Why is the critics' view seemingly being written/interpreted from a pro nuclear industry standpoint in this article? zen master T 22:34, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: I'm asking for protection again

message: I was looking at the criticisms section. the green scissors quote suggests that An NRC commissioned study estimated that damages from a severe nuclear accident could cost as much as $560 billion in 2000 dollars. Do we have a reference for their source, or alternatives? The article does not mention anywhere that $10 billion is an unrealistic  bill, so should it mention that a figure of $560 billion has been suggested? Anyone got information on what level of bill has what suggested probability of occurrence?
Now, I think I also read something that said any insurance fund on this scale is simply specious. Rather than collecting $1000 billion in a bank account, it is far better for government to use the money in everyday business (it's called reducing taxes), and raise some more if ever they have to pay out. The argument was that sums on this scale are so big that everyone pays one way or another, and we might just as well put it off until the day. 
 
no proper explanation yet that national facilities are self insured to the same sum. better explanation of categories. definition of military exclusions and who carries their bill?. research reactors, there is a list.(this is maybe 'factual' info and belongs in background)
Green scissors mention waste disposal: I think this is essentially irrelevant to the strict issue of PA, but it might fit in a general discussion of whether nuclear power is inherently unsafe (but endorsed by congress through this enabling act). I do not envisage a long article on merits, something short explaing that there are broader arguments against nuclear power. Is this already covered in a different article which should be referenced?
There is a mention of estimated subsidy costs. Is there anyone arguing that there is no subsidy? Or differing figures? As Ben mentioned above, there ought to be a mention that subsidies may be perceives as good, bad or neutral depending on the circumstances. Also better treatment of effects of subsidy on other alternative power (well more than half a sentence, anyway.)
Description of the procedure should an accident occur greater than the PA fund. I read something about reports to the president and an action plan? (This might not be a criticism, it might simply be factual background?)
More suggestions that people see as being missing? (time I went to bed) Sandpiper 02:05, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: OK - a response - 
#I think that my recent intro lists what is likely to happen in a serious event. 
#You can excuse the insurance and legal plan anyway you want - i want to know why it doesn't apply to other forms of energy and their similarly challenging risks? Why not insure wind investors against a hurricane for example /
#Why not? Benjamin Gatti 23:37, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticisms, things to do? 

message: Due to the indefensible Protection I have requested Arbcomm to review the cause for Protection. Comments at:
Requests_for_arbitration#Price-Anderson_Nuclear_Industries_Indemnity_Act
:Er, okay.  But as I've said to you before, the Arbitration Committee does not hear content disputes. Expect it to be summarily dismissed.  If you take issue with an article's protection, the correct place to complain about it is at WP:RFP or WP:AN/I. · Katefan0(scribble)/mrp 22:43, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Number 1 indefensible? We had a massive revert war going on. #2 they don't take content disputes. We've told you that in the past. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 22:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Assuming Mike is correct - (in that Arbcom doesn't adjudicate content disputes) - the question arises as to whether or not they will dictate content by proxy. Page protection for the purpose of dictating content is the dictation of content by administration - a summary dismissal is a decision, and if made in support of censorship would establish as precedent that the ArbComm does in fact exercise its authority in determining matters of content, does tolerate and engage in censorship, and operates in contrast to the motto of wikipedia, which by definition is a document edited by its readers. Benjamin Gatti 00:57, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point about supporting protection is tacit if not complicit support of content/censorship (a certain version of an article), though I suspect the arbcom will simply say they "don't get involved in content disputes". zen master T 01:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not asking them to change the content. I'm asking whether or not they will permit administrators to dictate content (and thereby censor community-based editing) by the raw exercise of power. To be (a wiki) or not to be... that is the question. (borrowed). Benjamin Gatti 02:31, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I agree that would or does indeed set a bad precedent. Perhaps at the same time we should create a list of NPOV violations (in our interpretation)? For example, things like "Instead of problematic results from claims in state courts..." and the misstating of understating of critics' arguments, what do you think? We should also seek out other editors to help us change this article to be neutral and accurate. zen master T 02:40, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: RfAr is not the place for any of this. I'm sure you made a great impression on the Arbcom. Btw, zen, your probation is about to be extended. Once it is, I'd tread carefully here if I were you. Any disruptive edits can send you to ANI where you could be blocked from here. Not a threat. More of a FYI. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 08:33, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That is most certainly a threat on your part but it seems increasingly hallow, I am still waiting for you/someone to point out specific edits that you take issue with instead of the nebulous "disruptive". zen master T 10:44, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've told you. It was the revert of the consensus that you did. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 11:03, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: 1 revert does not violate any policy and your definition of "consensus" is inaccurate, at least two editors disagree with you and interpret this article to be violating various wikipedia presentation neutrality policies. zen master T 11:13, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In the end, zen, it doesn't matter one or the other since probation on your was going to be extended to all articles even if I hadn't said anything. At the time the discussion was opened a week ago, Fred and Kelly had already said they wanted to extend it. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 11:15, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That doesn't mean any justification has ever been made, this is just more evidence of a pattern of censorship on certain wikipedia articles by a relentless handful of editors. It could be argued the race and intelligence article uses similar disinformation, mischaracterization and psychological effect of language techniques as this article does. It doesn't make sense that an editor claims to be a "flamming liberal" yet supports an act passed by Congress that is basically a giant government subsidy of the nuclear industry and also severely limits the public's right to sue the specific company responsible in the event of a nuclear accident. How can "Instead of problematic results from claims in state courts..." ever be considered a neutral presentation? To be neutral Wikipedia articles shouldn't simply regurgitate apparent nuclear industry marketing bullet points. zen master T 11:30, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't support the act! Wikipedia:Writing for the enemy. I quoted this on RfAr. Read it. It is possible to write things you don't believe when you are striving for a NPOV encyclopedia. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 11:47, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Shouldn't we specifically note who is arguing: "Instead of problematic results from claims in state courts..."? That sentence does not adhere to the NPOV policy. It also is wrong to mischaracterize critics' views. zen master T 17:44, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: actually it is a quotation from the supreme court ruling on the case brought against PA as being unconstitutional. Part of the evidence which they held to demonstrate that it was fair. I think it needs rewording, because it sounds rather odd out of the context in which it was originally written, but on the whole the supreme court is held to be a good source for whether something adheres to the US constitution. Sandpiper 23:20, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If that's true, I have to hand it to Sandpiper on that one. I believe the fourth circuit probably had this case correct, and then the Supreme's politicized it. It shows a degree of contempt for the Constitutional right of state's to have courts at all if the Supreme court would refer to them generally' as problematic. Benjamin Gatti 23:28, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I beg your pardon, Ben. My mistake. it is not a quote, but Simesa's paraphrase of the judgement. Two paragraphs before the now-infamous one we have been discussing being quoted in the article.
"The primary defect of this alternative [nonrenewal of the Act], however, is its failure to afford the public either a secure source of funds or a firm basis for legal liability with respect to new plants. While in theory no legal limit would be placed on liability, as a practical matter the public would be less assured of obtaining compensation than under Price-Anderson. Establishing liability would depend in each case on state tort law and procedures, and these might or might not provide for no-fault liability, let alone the multiple other protections now embodied in Price-Anderson. The present assurance of prompt and equitable compensation under a pre-structured and nationally applicable protective system would give way to uncertainties, variations and potentially lengthy delays in recovery. It should be emphasized, moreover, that it is collecting a judgment, not filing a [438 U.S. 59, 90]   lawsuit, that counts. Even if defenses are waived under state law, a defendant with theoretically "unlimited" liability may be unable to pay a judgment once obtained. When the defendant's assets are exhausted by earlier judgments, subsequent claimants would be left with uncollectible awards. The prospect of inequitable distribution would produce a race to the courthouse door in contrast to the present system of assured orderly and equitable compensation." Hearings on H. R. 8631 before Joint Committee on Atomic Energy, 94th Cong., 1st Sess., 69 (1975). 
as advised by yourself, although this was originally evidence given to the supreme court, i take it that they now endorse it as an accurate summary. Sandpiper 00:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

text: No, my mistake again. Not the paragraph quoted in full in the article, but the one which describes the PA alternative means of redress as 'fair and reasonable'. It continues in the same vein. The supreme court judgement was, I think, before the amendment transferring actions to federal courts, but did criticise the workings of state courts. However, PA did then include provisions for centralised administration of the fund and payouts, which it also endorsed. Sandpiper 00:53, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A Pretty serious mistake in my judgement which has found its way to a now-locked article. Clearly an opinion, inconsistent with fact, and unsourced. Meanwhile the Arbcom is being lobbied to view my edits as NPOV violate? Such humor lightens the soul this yuletide season. Perhaps we should apply the wisdom of Price Anderson to our entire legal system. We should eliminate the crush of lawsuits by upturnin state courts and handle every case with the administrative efficiency of Guantanimo Bay - style hearings? We should ensure the every plaintiff recieves their award by making the state the owner of every business, and therefore the respondant in every lawsuit (protecting the state against the cost by eliminating the fourth amendment right to a jury - of course). Price is a picture of Stalin dancing on the mold of Jefferson. Benjamin Gatti 01:08, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, no, not really, because it would be fair to summarise that the supreme court felt the results in state courts were problematic, as it went on to describe in rather more detail. But I fancy Simesa put this in to balance one of your own edits in the opposite direction. It does illustrate that in a summary less can be more, because the previous version, while having less detail, gave a reader a clearer view of the issue. Didn't the supreme court rule against Guantanemo, or is that still ongoing? But plainly a significant proportion of the American electorate supports the policies of its president. He was re-elected. Sandpiper 02:05, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a startling paragraph really, because it is so deeply anti-federalist, and alarming in the sense that it is equally true in any other case. Think about Vioxx for example, and why wouldn't this argument stand to shut down state court with all their wrinkles (being democratically controlled an all) and favor removing all liability cases into the federal court on the rather specious argument in my opinion that the feds are made of better stock (aren't they people too?). Its elitist, and monopolistic in that it exterminates the diversity of the state's - a diversity surely which works to improve and inform all of us, for what matter isn't best solved by trying fifty variants and choosing over some time the best practices based on empirical results? Benjamin Gatti 02:38, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Please bear in mind that i have to interpret your coments on the basis of 'common knowlege' in the UK. So i am not totally sure what you mean by anti-federalist, and what vioxx is about. The act claims that its intent is to give equal treatment to US citizens irrespective where they live. I presume they feel it unfair that the central government would give different levels of compensations to different citizens depending on which state they live in?  But yes, I can see how that general argument would apply to a lot of things. equal treatment of citizens in different countries is one of the major principles of the EU. Perhaps the federal government of the US feels that it has watched what the states do for 200 years, and now does know which is the best system? But I think most Brits would think  America is crazily obsessed with suing about anything. Sandpiper 21:02, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Federalism refers to the principle of a central government with limited powers and the right of the states to excersize the rights "not reserved". In short the default power - or unspecified power - belongs to the states. The Feds have the power to uphold constitutional rights such as free speech, equality, and fair trials (also interstate trade and common defense). Certain general terms (ie Provide for the general welfare) provide an opportunity to interpret a larger or smaller role for the federal goverment. An example of State power is the death penalty - which is decided on a state by state basis. Funny that nuclear power would rate as more important to welfare than the lives of citizens (or not?). 
;Vioxx
We've just had a lawsuit that vioxx caused some deaths - so there will be compensation for damages. The point is that the feds could argue that to insure fast equitable processing of those claims - it is necessary to unwrite the Constitutional principle of state's rights. Personally I believe diversity is important, and state's rights represent the people's right to a participatory democracy and the freedom of local people to control their own destiny. Benjamin Gatti 02:32, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfArb 

message: :Shouldn't we specifically note who is arguing: "Instead of problematic results from claims in state courts..."? That sentence does not adhere to the NPOV policy. It also is wrong to mischaracterize critics' views. zen master T 17:44, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: actually it is a quotation from the supreme court ruling on the case brought against PA as being unconstitutional. Part of the evidence which they held to demonstrate that it was fair. I think it needs rewording, because it sounds rather odd out of the context in which it was originally written, but on the whole the supreme court is held to be a good source for whether something adheres to the US constitution. Sandpiper 23:20, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If that's true, I have to hand it to Sandpiper on that one. I believe the fourth circuit probably had this case correct, and then the Supreme's politicized it. It shows a degree of contempt for the Constitutional right of state's to have courts at all if the Supreme court would refer to them generally' as problematic. Benjamin Gatti 23:28, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I beg your pardon, Ben. My mistake. it is not a quote, but Simesa's paraphrase of the judgement. Two paragraphs before the now-infamous one we have been discussing being quoted in the article.
"The primary defect of this alternative [nonrenewal of the Act], however, is its failure to afford the public either a secure source of funds or a firm basis for legal liability with respect to new plants. While in theory no legal limit would be placed on liability, as a practical matter the public would be less assured of obtaining compensation than under Price-Anderson. Establishing liability would depend in each case on state tort law and procedures, and these might or might not provide for no-fault liability, let alone the multiple other protections now embodied in Price-Anderson. The present assurance of prompt and equitable compensation under a pre-structured and nationally applicable protective system would give way to uncertainties, variations and potentially lengthy delays in recovery. It should be emphasized, moreover, that it is collecting a judgment, not filing a [438 U.S. 59, 90]   lawsuit, that counts. Even if defenses are waived under state law, a defendant with theoretically "unlimited" liability may be unable to pay a judgment once obtained. When the defendant's assets are exhausted by earlier judgments, subsequent claimants would be left with uncollectible awards. The prospect of inequitable distribution would produce a race to the courthouse door in contrast to the present system of assured orderly and equitable compensation." Hearings on H. R. 8631 before Joint Committee on Atomic Energy, 94th Cong., 1st Sess., 69 (1975). 
as advised by yourself, although this was originally evidence given to the supreme court, i take it that they now endorse it as an accurate summary. Sandpiper 00:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, my mistake again. Not the paragraph quoted in full in the article, but the one which describes the PA alternative means of redress as 'fair and reasonable'. It continues in the same vein. The supreme court judgement was, I think, before the amendment transferring actions to federal courts, but did criticise the workings of state courts. However, PA did then include provisions for centralised administration of the fund and payouts, which it also endorsed. Sandpiper 00:53, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A Pretty serious mistake in my judgement which has found its way to a now-locked article. Clearly an opinion, inconsistent with fact, and unsourced. Meanwhile the Arbcom is being lobbied to view my edits as NPOV violate? Such humor lightens the soul this yuletide season. Perhaps we should apply the wisdom of Price Anderson to our entire legal system. We should eliminate the crush of lawsuits by upturnin state courts and handle every case with the administrative efficiency of Guantanimo Bay - style hearings? We should ensure the every plaintiff recieves their award by making the state the owner of every business, and therefore the respondant in every lawsuit (protecting the state against the cost by eliminating the fourth amendment right to a jury - of course). Price is a picture of Stalin dancing on the mold of Jefferson. Benjamin Gatti 01:08, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, no, not really, because it would be fair to summarise that the supreme court felt the results in state courts were problematic, as it went on to describe in rather more detail. But I fancy Simesa put this in to balance one of your own edits in the opposite direction. It does illustrate that in a summary less can be more, because the previous version, while having less detail, gave a reader a clearer view of the issue. Didn't the supreme court rule against Guantanemo, or is that still ongoing? But plainly a significant proportion of the American electorate supports the policies of its president. He was re-elected. Sandpiper 02:05, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a startling paragraph really, because it is so deeply anti-federalist, and alarming in the sense that it is equally true in any other case. Think about Vioxx for example, and why wouldn't this argument stand to shut down state court with all their wrinkles (being democratically controlled an all) and favor removing all liability cases into the federal court on the rather specious argument in my opinion that the feds are made of better stock (aren't they people too?). Its elitist, and monopolistic in that it exterminates the diversity of the state's - a diversity surely which works to improve and inform all of us, for what matter isn't best solved by trying fifty variants and choosing over some time the best practices based on empirical results? Benjamin Gatti 02:38, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Please bear in mind that i have to interpret your coments on the basis of 'common knowlege' in the UK. So i am not totally sure what you mean by anti-federalist, and what vioxx is about. The act claims that its intent is to give equal treatment to US citizens irrespective where they live. I presume they feel it unfair that the central government would give different levels of compensations to different citizens depending on which state they live in?  But yes, I can see how that general argument would apply to a lot of things. equal treatment of citizens in different countries is one of the major principles of the EU. Perhaps the federal government of the US feels that it has watched what the states do for 200 years, and now does know which is the best system? But I think most Brits would think  America is crazily obsessed with suing about anything. Sandpiper 21:02, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Federalism refers to the principle of a central government with limited powers and the right of the states to excersize the rights "not reserved". In short the default power - or unspecified power - belongs to the states. The Feds have the power to uphold constitutional rights such as free speech, equality, and fair trials (also interstate trade and common defense). Certain general terms (ie Provide for the general welfare) provide an opportunity to interpret a larger or smaller role for the federal goverment. An example of State power is the death penalty - which is decided on a state by state basis. Funny that nuclear power would rate as more important to welfare than the lives of citizens (or not?). 
;Vioxx
We've just had a lawsuit that vioxx caused some deaths - so there will be compensation for damages. The point is that the feds could argue that to insure fast equitable processing of those claims - it is necessary to unwrite the Constitutional principle of state's rights. Personally I believe diversity is important, and state's rights represent the people's right to a participatory democracy and the freedom of local people to control their own destiny. Benjamin Gatti 02:32, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: La - a note to follow So

message: :Then put a request up at the requests for page protection page. That's what it's for. If you feel like it's been wrongly protected, post the request there, not here or at Arbcom. Hell, I'll post it there if you want me to. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 04:04, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And btw, what you cite there is the law, but it's not the Price-Anderson Act per se as far as I can see. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 04:11, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe it's what's become of the act (for the most part) - and this version doesn't reflect the most recent ammendments (slight numerical adjustments on the whole). Benjamin Gatti 04:33, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you don't put the request up to unprotect, then I don't think you have the right to call this a "whitewashing". Whether you agree with the current policy on protection (i.e. that parties involved usually request it) or not, it doesn't matter. You don't gain points by refusing to use the established process. Either use the process to unprotect the page or accept the decision to protect and work from there. You can't refuse to use the current process and then call it a whitewash at the same time. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 05:17, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Done Benjamin Gatti 06:26, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: a good idea

message: []
(Pasted by Benjamin Gatti 05:43, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You should have had the diff there in the first place. it's called taking a quote out of context. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 06:07, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What else is a sound bite? It's accidental poetry, as a friend, if you ask me, I'll take it down. But it's pure freudian art. Benjamin Gatti 06:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S How much of your complaint is cherry picking, parsing, and out-of-context? Benjamin Gatti 06:29, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: 1 or 2 or 3 or 20 incidents can be just in the passion of arguing. Over 100 (Which is how much evidence we have) is a pattern. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 06:32, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope for your sake that you're keeping the best for last. Benjamin Gatti 06:44, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Sound bite on this evenings news 

message: It's intriguingly surprising no one has edited this article since protection was lifted 20 hours ago. But anyway, what changes do people think should be made? zen master T 02:52, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The article tends to be edited in fits and spurts. We'll have massive editing and warring for 2 weeks and then very little for a month or so. It's been more consistent lately. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 08:32, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the intro needs to be balanced. Right now it's tilted towards anti-nuclear. And I don't mean the last sentence. I mean the intro as a whole...the article as a whole. I'd like to see it evened out a bit. Zen, if you feel like the summary of the criticisms at the end is inadequate, what do you think it should say? I think what happened is that you got in the middle of this revert war we had and I think your changes got lost in the shuffle a bit. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 15:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Post protection era 

message: I wish this wasn't unprotected. Nothing is settled. We now have an uncited John McCain quote and "no fault, no accountability". Oh and you misspelled communism Ben. I reverted it. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 15:20, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Number one, I didn't see it cited in the article. And #2 it doesn't belong in the intro. If you want to put into criticisms, I have no problem with that. But essentially, an intro that was already tilted towards anti-nuclear is now explicitly anti-nuclear. We need it balanced so it looks fairly at both sides. NPOV is what our goal is here. I don't see a real reason to make one loaded phrase (no fault. Even if it's used by the SC, it's a loaded word) and added another one. Reading the version you put up there, it's obvious that the point of view of this article is that the nuclear power industry intentionally creates accidents so they can get the insurance money. We're supposed to have a NPOV here. Reading the intro, the reader is supposed to see both sides of the issue. They are supposed to see a general summary that includes both views on this issue. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 15:57, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Balanced is a phrase which implies a normative reference. Let's take the Supreme court as normative - where we read that nuclear energy includes "substantial risks" of "harm to the public" - which creates the need to burn the Constitution and State's autonomy,  and to abandon the fair market fair competition economic model in favor of the common ownership of the risks of production for rich and politically connected special interests. - Viola - PAA. Brought to you by the special people of DeLay inc. Benjamin Gatti 16:35, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the idea that NPOV in this case is anti-nuclear. We've been down this road before. And you know, I don't remember the Supreme Court saying anything about abandoning the fair market system or burning the Constitution and ending the autonomy of states. Just because you can cite a Supreme Court statement and make a bunch of POV inferences from it doesn't make it all NPOV. If that was allowable Ben, then you could make any inferences you wanted from any piece of information. It would make the whole idea of NPOV rather pointless. It's the same problem I've had with you all along. It goes back to when you quoted NPOV policy as saying that controversial viewpoints are ok as long as they are cited but completely missed the point that there has to be balance to the article. Balance to me means showing both sides in the same light with no bias. It's the essence of NPOV. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 16:50, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

text: "Fault" and the irrelevency thereof is the key provision of the Act - and you are advocating that it be considered POV? (to the Arbcom no less) - This is rich. It's in the act (Which I found and cited yesturday). Benjamin Gatti 16:38, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Up above, I said that I don't think we should say no fault and no accountability. I didn't say let's consider fault POV. Is fault a loaded word? Yes. It's loaded in any context. When I say loaded, I'm not saying it shouldn't be included. If you look at the versions we've put up there, they say no fault and they've said no fault for quite some time now. Btw Ben, if you are referring to this as when I supposedly said that no fault is a POV term. 2 things. #1 I removed that because I decided it wasn't appropriate to use. And #2 I didn't even say there that "no fault" was a POV word. I said that the statement ""The Act establishes a no-fault-no-accountability collective insurance program for the nuclear industry, backed by the full faith of the taxpayer and protects investors against liability losses as an incentive to move investments from safe clean energy to nuclear energy which imposes substantial risks on the general public." defines POV. It certainly does. I don't like using double loaded words, but even if you go past that, we have the ending, which is obviously saying nukes bad, energy renewal good. I have no problem with the word "fault". If I did, then why the heck would I be reverting back to versions that use that word? --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 17:04, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Just did a revert

message: Aren't we supposed to be talking these changes out before we make them? Last I checked, we were still in mediation and I thought that was one of the ground rules we had agreed to or that Ral had said we should follow. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 16:05, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Into the intro or are you deciding that we're not going to work on this section by section anymore? --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 17:08, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Point of order

message: Benjamin Gatti 17:03, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Economic Benefit Questioned

message: The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) is an act of the Congress of the United States. It protects the nuclear industry against claims of public liability arising from a significant nuclear event. The Act establishes a pool of insurance funds from which no-fault compensation may be paid for injuries or damages caused by a nuclear or radiological incident. If claims from an incident exceed the pool's funds, Congress is required to  appropriate all necessary funds. The Act establishes common ownership of the risks of production while granting the profits to special interest groups. Of the 300 Billion in damages estimated by the NRC in CRAC-II (1982) [ industry would provide only 10 Billion, with the remaining 290 billion to come from the taxation of future generations. The Act establishes a no-fault collective insurance program for the nuclear industry, backed by the full faith of the future taxpayer and protects investors against liability losses as an incentive to redirect  investments from safe clean energy to nuclear energy in spite of the substantial risks on the general public . The Act currently covers all non-military nuclear facilities constructed in the United States before 2026. Some environmental, consumer and taxpayer watchdog groups, as well as one federal agency, have described the act as a government subsidy to the nuclear power industry and some argue that it removes important legal remedies from the potential victims of nuclear accidents.
*Includes workable references to both the probability and magnitude of the risks contemplated by the Act. (But I'm sure industries petty cash fund to cover 3% of the contemplated impact is more important.) Benjamin Gatti 18:27, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Responding to something Woohookitty said above but is relevant here, an introduction's size should be proportional to the size and complexity of the subject. Given the numerous different pro and critical view points on "Price-Anderson" it makes sense for this intro to be moderately sized. I like Ben's intro overall, the McCain quotation is good and should be added back perhaps, though I think some word choices should be cleaned up and some sentences could be clarified and succinctified. zen master T 19:04, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

text: You are right they are the same thing I just think "rights" is more clear than "legal remedies". Perhaps we need to mention both or otherwise explain what the public has lost in more detail? zen master T 22:35, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I would endorse the strongest terms, yes they are rights - including the essential right of a federal democracy which is for people to choose the laws they will live under, and when the federal government tells the states that their laws are no longer in force, the people have lost the right to a meaningful vote (as a matter of state's rights). Benjamin Gatti 22:54, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

text: If you want to mention the $300 billion you also have to mention the probability of a class-9 accident. (I've written off to find out just what a "class-9" accident consists of so we can do that.) Simesa 03:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Intro 

message: Ral,
Kate has removed information from the Intro which answers a long standing question: What is the risk (both probability and magnitude) contemplated by Price Anderson and imposed therefore on (FTA) (Future Taxpayers of America).
I'd like the mediator to render a decision as to whether or not the removal of deeply pertainant information from the intro without discussion is consistent with policy (and which). Benjamin Gatti 18:56, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Speaking of rich. This is just after you added a John McCain quote without a citation and without discussion, which is also against the policies laid out by the mediator. Can't have it both ways, Ben. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 02:42, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just asking if the removal of sourced and pertainent information without discussion is consistent with policy? Benjamin Gatti 02:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Mediation 

message: If no one can list at least five facts which they dispute than the disputed tag comes down.
#__five to go
#__four to go
#__three to go
#__two to go
#__one to go
Benjamin Gatti 22:24, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I posted once before that most of the facts are not disputed. It is their interpretation which is at issue. A question of editorial judgement. Sandpiper 23:57, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So we can change the tag to a simple neutrality dispute. I agree that the article is not neutral. We have failed to include the NRC's own assesment of the risk probability, and substituted (others) antecdotal opinions. Shame on us. Benjamin Gatti 00:07, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: well maybe not, it would depend what you thought to include? i still havn't seen anysuggestions for expanding the body of the articleSandpiper 00:29, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep it's not neutral. It sounds like an advertisement for a nuclear protest group. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 02:44, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Um. Mr Gatti? How can you remove the totallydisputed tag and then the first edit you make after that says "shorten, fix inaccurate statements, copyedit"? That doesn't make a lick of sense. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 08:38, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Fine. But next time, don't remove the tag and then immediately remove "inaccurate" information. Kind of looks bad. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 09:17, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  re Factual Accuracy Tag 

message: I'm sorry, but the latest intro being flown doesn't work for me.
#Money doesn't buy you indemnity
#The risk horizon is some 300 Billion dollars, which means to provide protection, you have to show where 300 Billion will come from.
#At that level, the Insurance fund (euphamism for complex scheme based on taxing children forever) is not significantly Industry funded.
#The act covers research (and warhead precessing I presume) Remember the first duty of the DOE is to build the bombs that threaten the world into compliance.
Generally speaking the provisions, should be connected in the form of a, b, and c - (not by, for etc) The analysis might make causual connections, but they have to be fully sourced and attributed. Benjamin Gatti 17:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Intro 

message: I'm taking final exams this week, and will be partially inactive this week.  Therefore, I ask your cooperation:  Please keep discussion civil, and avoid revert wars.  I'll check in periodically.  Ral315 (talk) 02:48, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Going on semi-break