Talk:Christian hip hop

message: needs list of prominent artists. ReverendG 00:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List

message: Please give some explanation as to why history should be deleted. Paul foord 14:37, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unexplained deletions 

message: likewise the secular hip hop community has also at times persecuted Christian hip hop artists and followers.
This sentence reeks of NPOV, either we should scrap that sentence or add sources.
:Yes, it does "reek of NPOV," because it was written from a neutral point of view. I'm sure you meant that it is the writer's point of view, but that's beside the point. Unfortunately, it is true that many Christian emcees (most infamously D-Boy) have been persecuted by secular hip hop artists and crews. That's probably where the term "sucker emcee" came from. |phantasy phanatik|talk|contribs|
Not true. The term "sucker emcee" goes back farther than Danny boy.
Agreed. "Sucker MCs" dates at least back to the Sugarhill Records era...I believe there was a relatively popular rap song with that name. Long before D-Boy. GBrady (talk) 17:06, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, "Run DMC" released a song called Sucker M.C.'s back in 1983, on Profile Records DerekDrewASU (talk) 23:44, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please Explain 

message: Is there a reliable cite for D-Boy being killed due to evangalizing the gangs? All reliable sources I can find say it was a case of mistaken identity or the motive for his killing was unknown. Ashmoo 02:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: D-Boy's death

message: Some of the intro needs to be moved to the article. At present it is very unbalanced hjaving an intro as long as the article.  Whats with all the links to clothiong brands etc.  It looks a lot like spam to me? David D. (Talk) 06:59, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i notice an anon IP reverted back to the bad old version that had an overlong intro and tons of spam links. i have reverted it bac to the last good version by LeinadSpoon. This is not acceptable format on wikipedia.  Articles should not become link farms. David D. (Talk) 06:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro too long

message: Per the Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-cookie_08met.ART.State.Edition2.e26d8ac.html), Danny Rodriguez "D-Boy" was murdered in 1990 when he was leaving his apartment complex. Police have never apprehended a suspect and the motive for the killing is not known.
I have fixed that portion of the D-Boy article. I'm having some trouble getting the footnotes in there so if someone can explain to me how to do that, I'll try and properly source it. Also, the article provided me some great additional details to add to the article...renaming Street Church after D-Boy, the 2006 tribute concert etc. Does anyone know more about what that tribute CD was called, who was on it, who participated at the concert, etc.? GBrady (talk) 14:58, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The D-Boy tribute album was titled Fallen Soldier.  To mark a footnote, include the footnote directly in the paragraph you intend to footnote (where you want the number to display), and surround it with  and  tags. Jpers36 (talk) 17:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Corrected Info. about D-Boy's Murder 

message: One of the most ironic quirks of rap artists, given their usual lyrics - look through the liner notes to most US RAP/Hip Hop.  You will find the artist/band thanking god.  I think Geto Boys are the best example of this 164.143.244.34 17:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have any indication that they are a Christian act? Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:08, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other rappers 

message: ...two groups emerged in this new scene that not only had the "gospel" / "Christian" part, but also had the credible skills and "street wise" artistry to make an impact in the secular or mainstream scene as well...
This section in particular seems to just be blind assertion. Whether someone is 'street-wise' or not is a matter of opinion. A better way of framing this would be if you found someone of prominence in the hip hop community who expressed this point of view.
Before The Cross Movement, many of the artists in the genre were passive, speaking of Christ only when necessary.
Can this be supported with a citation? This seems to be a VERY POV statement as well as very dismissive of the intent of old-school Christian rappers from the late 80s/early 1990s as well. I'd like to see this drastically reworded unless it can be cited.GBrady (talk) 17:15, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opinion or Fact? 

message: How is Rawsrvnt's album, "In Rare Form" listed as the first Hip Hop Worship Album? Wasn't Hip Hop Praise's album "Sinner's Prayer" way before that? This article seems to have a lot of fake statements like this one, and I'm concerned the credibility simply isn't here. 
141.151.175.91 20:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You may start a new discussion by clicking the edit this page link at the top and adding a new level 2 sectional heading at the bottom. Alternatively, you may click the (+) sign next to the edit link to start a new discussion. :) aJCfreak yAk 06:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  First Hip Hop Worship Album? 

message: I've seen the name "Plain White Rapper" mentioned as an early cassette only Christian rap release but I haven't been able to find a definitive source yet. Anyone familiar with that tape know its year of release? GBrady (talk) 17:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Plain White Rapper" is a song by KJ-52 --134.193.112.62 (talk) 16:30, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Rev. Rap" really first? 

message: First just for those who are new or not familiar with Wiki.  Places in the article that cite and external website are called "Refences" and are automatically added n the page when you use  on a page.  So DO NOT delete this tag.  If you want to have genereal references to for article where no direct citation is used, you may put it after the  tag, however this is discouraged.  If you just want to post a link, you can use the section I just created called Web Links.
I think we should keep the Web Links section as it is a valuable recource, however a general wiki concensus among many users is not to use them.  Many people use WP to promote thier own or favorite sites or artists, but I still think this is OK as long as it's not abused.  See the comment I put in the section regarding guidelines for adding sites.  If you feel the section should be deleted, please discuss here before deleting.  Thanks! --Lefton4ya (talk) 21:49, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why no Magazines/e-zines? Some of the links are just that. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:48, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, well I guess if by Magazines/e-zines, it means in depth articles, album reviews and new, and a/v clips, then I guess all websites would be considered e-zines.  I guess I meant not having  print (or PDF) magazines websites.  But we definitely should allow websites with reviews and articles.  --Lefton4ya (talk) 14:01, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

text:  What do you mean it? You're the one who left the comments, what do you mean by them? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:54, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Web links and Refernces 

message: I like the DMOZ link first, but unless anyone wants to be an editor over there, the links on DMOZ are sorely lacking so I think a few longstanding professional website links should be included in the links section.  I added: "NO Links to Artist, Record Label, Stores, Magazines/e-zines, radio sites - only general Christian Hip Hop sites with professional reviews or links to other sites." in page note.  If you disagree, reach a consensus here. --Lefton4ya (talk) 16:51, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Why no Magazines/e-zines? Some of the links are just that. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:48, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, well I guess if by Magazines/e-zines, it means in depth articles, album reviews and new, and a/v clips, then I guess all websites would be considered e-zines.  I guess I meant not having  print (or PDF) magazines websites.  But we definitely should allow websites with reviews and articles.  --Lefton4ya (talk) 14:01, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

text:  What do you mean it? You're the one who left the comments, what do you mean by them? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:54, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links 

message: I don't think that people like Tupac, Dmx, Jay-Z and Kanye should be mentioned in this article, let alone given a whole paragraph. Just because an artist mentions God, Christ, or anything remotely spiritual in one song then turns around talking about selling drugs, killing and hurting people, etc. in fourteen or fifteen other songs is NOT CHRISTIAN music. The only three people I myself have heard of in this article are Lecrae, Trip Lee and Tedashii. There are other artists worth mentioning in this article too. People from Cross Movement Records like The Cross Movement, Flame, The Ambassador Sho Baraka, Json...Then S.O.A.K. (Sons of a King) with Lunie 3:80, Semaj, and Judah Man. Conviction, Pettidee...--Lilac22281 (talk) 16:33, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely agree with your first sentence. List of Christian hip hop and rap artists also needs work. You can go ahead and clean up the article if you want to. Be bold!. -- œ™ 19:03, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

text: In your efforts to define what is and is not "true" Christian Hip-Hop - please be careful not to fall victim to the No true Scotsman logical fallacy.  Just because an artist's lyrics offend you personally, does not automatically mean it is not Christian Hip-Hop.  There are many sub-denominations of Christianity, and the morals and personal beliefs of Christians varies wildly enough that the definition of Christian Hip-Hop may be larger and more inclusive than you would otherwise like to assert.  There are undeniably many people for whom drugs, killing, hurting people, AND their personal devotion to Christianity, are all central aspects of their lives. Roidroid (talk) 06:52, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian Artists 

message: There's a pretty big issue being skipped over in how this article covers the genre. The great divide among Christian rappers is between people who rap about Christian beliefs, and people who hold Christian beliefs but rap about other things, perhaps occasionally touching on their Christianity as part of who they are. I myself tend to follow the second type of Christian rap artist, and enjoy Mars Ill and LA Symphony. --Nerd42 (talk) 15:12, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been covered in the Christian rock and Contemporary Christian music articles. If you want to bring it up again here, go ahead. I tend to follow the first type of Christian music in general. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:52, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I'm aware this distinction is present in many genres of "Christian music" (note the bolded scare quotes - the term is meaningless) but from reading this article, you get the impression that "gospel rap" and "Christian hip hop" are the same thing. They aren't. I think "gospel rap" is rapping about the gospel, while "Christian hip hop" is hip hop by Christians. Unfortunately, the terms are used interchangeably by the media because they're too stupid to figure out the difference. --Nerd42 (talk) 19:56, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  The term is not meaningless to all people, which is why it exists in the first place. You might want to use the text from the articles I mentioned above as a foundation for what you use here, but since you think that the term is meaningless, maybe you shouldn't be the one who is editing the article. Perhaps someone who cares about the distinction should be the editor. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:21, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

text: The genre, like much of Christian music sub-genres, isn't particularly precise. There are some who consider themselves to be Christian artists while others balk at the idea of wearing the moniker either because it feel limiting or because they don't feel worthy compared to others. For instance, Switchfoot don't consider themselves to be a Christian rock band, but many of their fans do. Who is right in that regard? Meanwhile, there are Christian metal bands who regularly play in bars and clubs and don't have a problem with calling themselves Christian. Some constantly refer to Christ or Christian themes while others don't. Do you have a suggestion to solve the problem universally or are you suggesting that everyone fit into some preconceived notion that you may have? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:03, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What I'm objecting to is the definition as "a form of hip hop music that uses Christian themes to express the songwriter's faith." That's assuming a set of goals that is not universal to the genre. KJ-52 for example, does songs about his faith, but also does songs about Starbucks Coffee, going to McDonalds and being addicted to Mountain Dew. Some of the other artists I mentioned that are acknowledged in the genre don't conform to that "the point of your music is for expressing your faith" formula at all. I'm saying this article's definition seems to have a preconceived notion that not all and probably not even most prominent figures in the genre conform to. I would suggest perhaps that "Christian hip hop" is hip hop created by self-identified, vocal Christians that does not use profanity and just leave it at that. --Nerd42 (talk) 22:07, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article ignores divisions within the genre. 

message: As requested by Walter Görlitz, here is my justification for the Multiple Issues template:
*Citations Needed - Most of the History section is uncited. 11 uses of  but there are plenty more instances of uncited statements in the whole article.
*Weasel Words - Use of weasel words ("popular, funky", "considered the grandfather", "much of the sales", "Recently", "Some of America's premiere Christian rappers")
*Cleanup - Use of slang ("bringing up", "crew"); parts written like a review, not neutral in tone ("Freedom of Soul had a jazzier feel", a more hardcore "street" feel to it")
Rwalker (talk) 15:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I was  aware of the high number of Citation needed templates and wanted to be specific. The "considered the grandfather" isn't so much a weasel word, or phrase, as it needs a citation. The slang should be clean-up as well. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I don't think it is as much weasel words, as the article is very poorly sourced. Mostly, because I think people just pop in and add their own opinion of the genre or some debate currently going on in the genre, which explains the extremely poor language of parts. Ashmoo (talk) 12:54, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope to invest some time to help and address most of these concerns: language, citations, and enhancing the overall organizational structure.  For instance, The "Performance" subsection under "Reactions and Acceptance" is markedly about special events, not concerts or shows in general. Thus, that content would probably be most appropriate under a major heading called "Events" or something similar. In such case, there's some key information that I'd like to add, with sources of course (on Cru-vention, particularly Atlanta 1996). Estaples2 (talk) 13:37, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiple Issues 

message: I made a few changes to the lede and had them reverted, so I wrote them (hopefully) a bit more clearly with an explanation here. The opening description was a bit awkward with the 'expressing the artist's faith'. First, the simplest description is that the music has lyrics with Christian themes. Adding the 'faith' bit adds unneeded complication. Also, it is our course possible to be an atheist/agnostic or unsure of one's faith and write Christian hip hop. Not that I'm saying anyone is doing it, but since we can't know the minds of others, the most correct definition is based on the features of the genre which can be Verified. Finally, wikipedia focuses on Topics not Words, some I changed the focus from the 'term' to the 'subject' of Christian hip hop. Ashmoo (talk) 12:50, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: lede

message: I deleted most of a paragraph about the influence of Christian Hip because it was incorrect. Mainstream rappers Jay-Z, Tupac, Kanye West, and Richie Rich have never publicly claimed to be Christians. Their music and Tupac's Makaveli CD cover are not Christian. Jay-Z has publicly mocked and ridiculed and mocked "Christians"/followers of the Messiah as well as The Holy Bible.
Here are some of the lyrics to Jay-Z's song "Empire State of Mind" http://www.metrolyrics.com/empire-state-of-mind-lyrics-jayz.html
...Eight million stories out there, and they're naked 
Cities is a pity, half of y'all won't make it
Me, I gotta plug, Special Ed "I Got It Made"
If Jesus payin' LeBron, I'm paying Dwyane Wade...
Mommy took a bus trip, now she got her bust out
Everybody ride her just like a bus route
Hail Mary to the city, you're a virgin
And Jesus can't save you, life starts when the church ends...
Just because someone mentions Jesus or "god" in their song doesn't mean that it is inspired by Christ any more than someone who mentions medicine while talking makes them a doctor.
I invite you to further dialog before reverting the wikipedia page back to its previous state.
-deshonj  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deshonj (talk • contribs) 14:47, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Please understand that this isn't about you or me but about the reference: http://allhiphop.com/stories/features/archive/2008/04/29/19752948.aspx Please read it and offer an opposing view to it, but don't delete it as per WP:V. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:15, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian Hip Hop influence edit 

message: If anyone wants to help create an article for Derek Minor, formerly known as PRo, I've created the user subpages User:3family6/Derek Minor and User:3family6/Derek Minor discography.--¿3family6 contribs 19:23, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps starting them as a single article would be better. If the discography section is too large, then it should be split off. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:01, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I've done in the past, but as I was gathering source material, I realized that the discography page would have to be split off (Derek has three solo albums, three mixtapes, and one album each under 116 Clique and RMG, and that isn't counting singles, videos, and guest appearances), so I decided to skip that step and just create a separate page to begin with. Do you think I should merge them temporarily, just for ease of editing?--¿3family6 contribs 21:16, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creation of article for Derek Minor, formerly known as Pro 

message: I extended the introduction to better summarize the contents of the whole page. I edited the style and language, as well as reorganized the "History" and "Artists and Styles" sections, as well as relocated information to different sections that was inappropriately placed. I added information already present in different parts of the article to the Industry and Markets sections, I changed "Performances" to "Festivals" and added information on certain Festivals that was present in other parts of the article, and reorganized the Crossover section into two sections, "Crossover" and "Acceptance", and added new information from my own research. I also added "Gospel Rap in Brazil" to forms and subgenres with info from other parts of the article.   
Zachman1095 (talk) 23:36, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Review of Recent Revisions 

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