Talk:Third World/Archive 1

message: Since there isn't a unified article for "Fourth World", the usage of "Fourth World" to mean extremely poor agrarian countries with no industrial development, usually in Sub-Saharan Africa, as opposed to "Third World" countries that are developing some industry like India, needs to be worked into the "Third World" article.  This seems to be rarer than the use of "Fourth World" to mean stateless indigenous nations, but does exist in some development literature.
To my knowledge, "Fourth World" most often refers to indigenous populations (or sometimes other oppressed minority groups) within countries (be they from the 'First World' or 'Third World')--Ove 19:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third and Fourth Worlds 

message: The map which was up here was removed for being "not NPOV". I think the article does need two maps - 1) showing the historic cold war -first/second/third, and 2) showing what are considered third world today, since many of the former 2nd world countries are now considered 3rd world. If I removed south africa, israel and s.e. europe would it be acceptable? since they probably should not go there Astrokey44 13:01, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it would. SE Europe and Israel should definitely not be there, and while South Africa is under question, and is often considered Third world just because it is in Africa, I don't think it can really be considered Third world due to its income and development (though a majority of the population live in quite poor conditions). Ronline 10:26, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok I made the changes you wanted, and also I guess Mongolia should be 3rd world too. I also added Azerbaijan and Armenia, but not Georgia, think that would be where it should be divided. S. Africa kept as yellow because I checked google and there are alot of references to it being a 3rd and a 1st world country, or sometimes seen as 3rd world. China is the only other country that needs to be yellow here I guess, because it has the 2nd largest economy in the world and modern cities but poor countryside Astrokey44 12:08, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: China - yes, China is mostly considered third world, but in recent years people are starting to see the distinction, particularly since historically it has been Second World. So it should be yellow. So should Mongolia. As to the Caucasus, I don't know why Georgia shouldn't be included and the rest should. Personally, I would consider all the Caucasus to be third world, in terms of internet sources, they're usually considered "Transition economies", along with Central Asia. But Georgia isn't at all better off that Azerbaijan and Armenia (in fact, it's actually the poorest of the three). So, I would say these three should probably be yellow. Thanks, Ronline 04:59, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought Georgia was more of a western country, but the others had more in common with central asia. Mongolia is third world isnt it? Astrokey44 13:42, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Mongolia is Third World. Georgia is probably the westernmost of the Caucasus states in terms of culture, but in terms of development it is about equal to the others, if not slightly less developed.  Ronline ✉ 06:31, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: Two things.  First, I always thought that most of Latin America was aligned with the US.  Second off, they are 2nd World in terms of industry aren't they?
Cameron Nedland
:Possibly. The term isnt very fair, and which side Latin America was on during the cold war does not have much to do with them being considered 3rd world. Most of Africa and South and south east asia was also western-aligned but they are still considered 3rd world. ---- Astrokey44|talk 12:21, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  WTF? 

message: It is implied at the begining of the article that the current use of term third world is associated to the more quantitative HD index. However, my opinion is that one has to stress the subjective nature of (and oftentimes degradator;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;y meaning) Third World country has and not validate the use of Third World by associating it to the HD index. The two terms are not the same and are only loosely related. The whole Latin America is considered third world, however, looking at the HD index one sees that countries like Argentina, Chile or Costa Rica have HD indexes similar or even higher than some European countries considered not Third World (Poland, Hungary and even Russia). So I would argue that these countries are considered Third world only by association, and I conclude that Third World is effectivly a country-scale discriminatory labelling in many cases. I hope ths view can be somehow included in the article. HDI seems to have a dynamic character (a country can go up or down) however the Third World label seems to be more difficult to change, more evidence to the subjetivity of the term.
Rronda 03:17, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Relation between the Human development index and the term Third World 

message: "Tiers monde means Third World in French, but in the sense of "one-third" -- it does not mean "third in rank" (which would be troisième monde)." 
I don't think that this is correct, because according to what you can find in a good french dictionary "tiers" and "troisième" mean the same and are doublets. I would like to know the source of this distinction in the text, because it does not make much sense to me if it means "one-third". What would be the difference in meaning? --Baikonur 16:09, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Difference between "tiers" and "troisième" 

message: Argentina is not a third world country and the same with uruguay
:You're probably right to an extent there. In fact, many people say that the three developed countries in the Southern Hemisphere are Australia, New Zealand and Argentina. However, particularly due to recent financial crisis in Argentina, the country is often considered a developing economy (i.e. not an advanced economy). The term Third World isn't exactly synonymous with the developing world. Would you have any sources to show that Argentina and Uruguay are not Third World? Thanks,  Ronline ✉ 08:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ive seen a few sources which suggest Argentina used to be a first world country but is now considered third world  -- Astrokey44|talk 10:26, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Chile is not a third world country yet here it's included on the map based on association as Rronda stated above. - Rudykog 20:07, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I updated the map to include Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Panama, Costa Rica, Turkey and some of the gulf states as sometimes considered third world -- Astrokey44|talk 01:51, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Interesting to note the maps used at the other language wikipedias - this one is used by most which includes china, all of latin america, israel and south africa as third world. this one does not include china or central asia, and this one includes much less latin american countries, but includes russia, china, central asia, yugoslavia as third world but not the gulf states or israel -- Astrokey44|talk 02:11, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Dutch map is quite interesting in that it doesn't actually define Third World countries, but HDI. So, from what I understand, red signifies middle-HDI countries, grey signifies high HDI and dark red shows low HDI. I think it's quite an inaccurate way of looking at it, and shouldn't really belong in a Third World article but rather in the HDI article. Astrokey - I think the map at :Image:Third world countries map world 2.PNG now is great! The only thing I don't understand is the inclusion of Saudi Arabia as "sometimes Third World" and to an extent the Gulf States. I mean, Saudi Arabia has a high GDP per capita but is quite backward in development (even in terms of HDI) while the Central Asian American countries are nearly always considered Third World (although Costa Rica is lauded as a Central Asian American success story, but in the same way that Malaysia is seen as a Southeast Asian success story).  Ronline ✉ 10:10, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasnt sure about Saudi Arabia, but just because it had been included in this article which was possibly not a third world country. I found some references saying that Panama and Costa Rica were sometimes seen as 1st world: Panama - ,  Costa Rica - . For NPOV its probably better to mark more of them as being possible 3rd world than definately 3rd world. -- Astrokey44|talk 11:53, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On a similar note, it would also be better for NPOV purposes to also make some modifications in the other direction, so to speak, since the recognition of all/some of the Latin American countries mentioned as first world is not universal nor homogenous within their own populations (for example, there are opinion pieces in which Argentinians [sp?] consider that their country may be third world due to the recent economic crisis, which showed that social inequalities were far from being resolved). The links and information that you guys have provided also show that their classification as first world and/or third world is far from being an universal concensus worldwide (and their possible third world status is not only due to association). Juancarlos2004 19:58, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry about that - I just realised that in my rush I put Panama in Central Asia! Everywhere I wrote Central Asia above, I meant Central America :)  Ronline ✉ 08:10, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem I knew what you meant :) -- Astrokey44|talk 15:16, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

text: In Astrokey's map, which is the one shown in the article, Israel is not coloured yellow at all! It's grey (i.e. non Third World) just like Europe. The yellow territory is the West Bank/Palestinian Territories. The only map where Israel is shown as Third World is :Image:Third world world map transparent.png, but this map colours in all members of the Non-Aligned Movement (i.e. Third World in the traditional bipolar political sense, not the current usage). This should be changed since Israel is not a member of NAM, as far as I know.  Ronline ✉ 08:06, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, thats right, Israel is shown as first world in the current map. Its actually Palestine which is yellow (which you only see when you download high version) I think I might put this whole third world issue up at requests for comment since it seems controversial. It would be nice to have a vote or something so we can settle which countries should be considered third world -- Astrokey44|talk 15:16, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Looking round for some other third world maps I found this which  also includes Greenland, South Korea and Taiwan; this map which has what looks like South Africa, Egypt, Libya, Algeria and Burma as being "variable"; and this low quality map . There was also this map of livestock in the developing world -- Astrokey44|talk 15:36, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I think a more formal vote might be better which lists all the countries/areas in the world, rather than a small selection. I set one up as a userpage here: User:Astrokey44/Third World (using the same voting system that you suggested), but it could be moved to something like Talk:Third World/countries vote if it was thought worth having -- Astrokey44|talk 02:39, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for setting up the list. I'm voting there now.  Ronline ✉ 08:07, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ok no worries, Ive moved the page to make it a subpage of this talk page now. I hope this poll complies with Wikipedia:Straw polls and Wikipedia:Current surveys. are there any objections to the current format? -- Astrokey44|talk 09:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  wrong map 

message: It is simply not our place as english-speaking editors to decide what constitutes "third world."  First world, second world, and third world are arbitrary (and offensive) terms.  The article should only explain how the saying has been used in the past.--Colle 21:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What he said Robdurbar 21:54, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Arbitrary, yes.  But offensive?  How so? Durova 08:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some people might not like being told they live in a "third world" country.  It is catagorization based on western ideals... you get the picture.--Colle 00:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No I don't get the picture.  That's PC speculation.  Have you any source for it? Durova 20:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I have now removed it (pov, original research, geographic bias)--Colle 23:39, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geographic/social Bias 

message: I put back the map that had been removed a few edits ago because it seems to be a fairly accurate map. Of course, ideas of what makes up the 3rd world can never be anything but subjective, but I feel this map makes a decent compromise. What does everyone else think? Getagrip123 22:20, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See above topic...
Well, again, the fact that what makes up the 3rd world can only be subjective, it's exactly the reason why there shouldn't be a map. Moreover, illustrating the concept "third world" with the HDI map is misleading. Human development index is an attempt to be objective, whereas Third world is on the contrary a common use definition, which is inaccurate at best. It will be better to illustrate the term Third world with quotations and references to people actually using the term in context (politics, humor, etc). This would also be interesting in more levels, for instance, to see how "third world" has been evolving historically. What is the matter with not having a map?
Rronda 04:41, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Map

message: As I understand your discussion your fundamental problem is (or was) the understanding of the term "Third World". I believe you would have a lot less discussion if you would differentiate between the terms "Third World" and "developing countries" respectively the actual political meaning of "Third World" from the 1950s and the contemporary colloquial meaning as a synonym for developing countries. If you do not differentiate between the two meanings you will never reach a consensus, because one part is using it in the first the other part in the latter meaning. However in your discussion about the maps you mainly use the colloquial meaning of the term. Due to the fact this article is about "Third World" it should mention the different meanings, but then focus on the original political meaning and for the colloquial meaning it should refer to the article "Developing country". The case that you do not find realiable sources about which state is to consider "Third World" today, is because of the fact that strictly speaking you use the wrong (colloquial) meaning of the term. In the political meaning the "Third World" were the states of the Non-Aligned_Movement. You could therefore use the :Image:Map_Non-Aligned_Movement.png as a map in this article.
So if you want to classify developing countries you can't do this arbitrarily, but you have to base your classification on a certain systematic methodology. Therefore it is pretty much useless to vote about which country is to be considered a developing country (you use "Third World" in the discussion). 
The term "developing country" isn't based on a certain systematic methodology, it is a very broad and not strict defined term, so that there are many different methodologies to classify developing countries. For example you can use GDP per capita as the World Bank does (LIC, MIC, LMIC, UMIC, HIC) or use  the Human Development Index (HDI) as the UN does. However all this shouldn't be part of the article "Third World" but of the article "Developing country". On  you can read a more in-depth and worth reading criticism about a certain map but the criticism also applies to any other map that isn't based on any logic or systematic methodology. That's why I proposed the deletion of these maps on commons as Astrokey44 noticed on the vote page. Best regards --Baikonur 17:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wonder if perhaps this is not a more serious problem with this article which should really split all of its 'developing countires' content out to the relevant article and look at the historical Third World, from 1950-the eighties when it began to fall apart. Robdurbar 09:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments on your discussion about maps (meta discussion) 

message: "Perhaps the earliest use of such a ranking system to describe the peoples of Earth appears in studies of 'race' during the classic period of European imperialism. James M. Hobson, in his "The Eastern Origins of Western Civilization" (2004) discusses the 'civilizational league table' (employing categories such as 'racial colour', 'temperament', and 'climactic character'),"
Published in 2004? I don't think so. 148.177.129.212 13:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: could be a republishing. i know with essays books are usually referenced by most recent publish date --Astrokey44 09:38, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This must be a mistake 

message: Third World is also the European term used to mean the American continent (South and North), because it was the third discovered continent (by Europeans). However it's contemporary new American meaning confuses a lot of Europeans.
:If its the third, what was the second continent? --Astrokey44 12:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My ges iz that they considrd Asia and Afrika one continent and cald it the 2nd continent.Cameron Nedland 04:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: just realised it probably refers to Eurasia as 1, Africa as 2. but this is silly anyway since 'europeans' knew about northern africa for as long as they did western asia --Astrokey44 04:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it's not. The numbers are not about discoveries. This meaning of "Third World" should be backed by citations and be mentioned as an ancient, deprecated meaning. --85.181.8.27 21:11, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I added this, it was reverted as Wandal-ism, but it's true... 

message: thumb|right|300px|
removed the map as it includes areas which are controversial such as eastern europe and does seem to be based on reliable sources, as per the previous discussion --Astrokey44 00:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have also removed that map from developing country and its sister map from developed country. It is far too generalised and controversial for it to be in those articles. The inclusion of the former Eastern Bloc is particularly controversial, especially in the case of East Germany and Slovenia. East Germany does not exist as a political unit, and hence it can't be classified separately from the rest of Germany. Germany as a whole is developed. If we're into classifying subnational entities, then maybe Southern Italy should also be highlighted as developing, since it's GDP per capita is lower than that of East Germany. Slovenia is another case: it is a high-income net donor country that is clearly developed. Czechia is also a net donor. The rest of Eastern Europe is considered a developed region by the UN and hence should also not be included on that map.  Ronline ✉ 09:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with you. This is a highly controversial issue, I think we should continue using the Human Development map. AlexCovarrubias 20:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  new map 

message: All three of these articles seem to be very similar as the terms are closely tied. Would it make sense to merge all three into a single article? Pburka 22:45, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What would be the name of the merged article? ---Majestic- 22:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good question. First, Second and Third Worlds? With redirects from the existing pages, obviously. I'm open to better suggestions. Pburka 23:01, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Developing & Developed Nations"? With redirects, of course. Regardless of the title, I think that combining the three would be too encompassing and lengthy. I know they all relate to one another, but each are so important that they require their own articles. Maybe the problem is the similarities between the articles. Perhaps we could have a seperate article that discusses the inter-connectivity of the Three Worlds? Just my two cents, feel free to disagree. 72.137.224.24 06:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I oppose. These may be similar terms, but certainly not the same. AlexCovarrubias  ( Let's talk! ) 20:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge [[First World]], [[Second World]] and [[Third World]]? 

message: Three worlds typology and Three Worlds Theory are histories of sorts for the concept of third world.  I'm sure that at least one of those two could merge into the other, but perhaps they should all merge here, or there should be some sort of historical concepts of three worlds article or something.  What do you think? Smmurphy(Talk) 17:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I deleted the merge to "Three-Worlds Theory", as it is a basic concept of Maoism and does not have much in common with the usage of "Third World". --85.181.8.27 21:12, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  mergers 

message: I removed this from the article:
:Furthermore, it could be wrongly assumed that "developing world/country" is developing at all.  Many developing nations, in fact, are not developing in any meaningful way what-so-ever.  There simply is no path of progressive industrialization or economic advancement occurring.
In addition to the lack of a source, the wording seemed to do more harm than good. The basic point -- that a developing country isn't necessarily developing -- needs to be made, but not in a way that would be like slapping those countries in the face. - furrykef (Talk at me) 09:16, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statement removed from article 

message: I just changed Troisième Etat to Tiers Etat - I might be wrong, I'm not so good at history but I'm French and I've never heard the term Troisième Etat before. Moreover, the French article about the Third Estate is called "Tiers Etat" : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiers_%C3%A9tat
Please correct me if I'm wrong. loulan (talk) 03:27, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tiers Etat 

message: The entire country-states like India are run by deeply-corrupt politicians who are routinely elected to power by an equally corrupt population+a deeply corrupt electoral process.
Gut-wrenching filth and almost animal-like existence of people are the first two things that a first time visitor to these parts notices and quickly learns to ignore.
sounds like an essay and contrary to WP spirit. ill wait for a week for someone to reply.
thanks --Sayitaintsojoe (talk) 18:31, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language & Tone 

message: Puerto Rico is no longer a third world country. I live there, and I can comfortably say that this country has stop being a third world country a few decades ago. We have our own democratic government, similar to United States, industries, respectable universities and colleges, technology, among other things. Our society began evolving ever since the United States took ownership. Xach 21:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Puerto Rico 

message: Why is Cuba second world?? It should be 3rd or fourth if possible. I've been to Cuba and trust me its like Haiti but no democracy. Please someone change it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.122.88 (talk) 20:20, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You do not seem to understand the term second world. In any case, we work on reliable sources, not trusting one another to be right. J Milburn 23:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cuba 

message: The page "Less economically developed countries" brings one here, while "Less economically developed country" takes one to developing country. I suppose there is a difference in quantity, but I don't see why that should lead to different articles, exactly, nor why there are two articles on basically the same thing. (According to me, someone who knows little about this subject matter.) I think my query is whether it would not be better to send people interested in this concept directly to developing country, as this article seems to be just about the term, rather than the actual Third World. I find this rather confusing- that the article is about the term, rather than the actual Third World, but then neither do I see the use for two articles on the same subject. Perhaps a merge is in order? Loggie (talk) 21:24, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible overlap

message: This discussion of which countries are or aren't Third World is wrong headed. PURPLE DINOSAURS!!! Has anyone read The Darker Nations by Vijay Prashad?  The book is excellent in describing what the Third World was, which was a project of newly independent countries of Africa, Asia, and eventually South America and the Caribbean, which sought to fight for political and economic self determination of nations, equality, and peace.  The movement failed due to many factors, one being inner division between such large and diverse groups of people.  Also, with the collapse of the Soviet Union the terms of first second and third world have little to meaning other than designations of economic activity.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.29.42.224 (talk) 21:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is and what isn't 

message: Perhaps I should edit the article directly, but I'm new to editing wiki pages so I thought I'd try something as a discussion first (and I didn't want to mess up the main page - especially not the opening paragraph.
Current first para.
"The term Third World is now deprecated, and has been replaced with the more politically correct "developing country". It is a term used, along with First World and Second World, (now more commonly called "developed countries"), to broadly categorize the nations of the Earth to three social, political, and economic divisions. It is also known in some academic contexts as the Global South."
1. There's a single-plural mix up in the first sentence. It should either be Third World = Developing World [a 'developing country' is one country; 'developing countries' could be some but not all individual countries; world implies it's the whole lot]. This single-plural mix up is quite common in the article.
2. I question what it means to state that the term Third World is 'depreciated.' 
2a: I don't understand what is means for a word to be 'depreciated.' I would assume this means the phrase is no longer used (not true - see next point). The only other thing I think it could mean is that a decision has been taken to no longer use the phrase. I know that many organisations have done this, but there is no 'controller' of the English language and nobody with the authority to depreciate a word or phrase. 
2b: The term is still in written usage (e.g. the Fairtrade Foundation label on Fairtrade goods in the UK state "A better deal for Third World producers; there's the Third World Network; and search forums and you'll find the term is still in use. [As an aside, my university degree certificate says I studied 'Third World Development Studies' - me me at least the term 'Third World' will be in use for as long as I have to tell people about my qualifications]
3. I'm not too sure about the describing the term as 'more politically correct' is completely neutral. From the wikipedia page on 'developing countries': Critics believe that at times the word "developing" is a misnomer. In the case of countries ravaged by European colonialism, the word "re-developing" may be more accurate since there were successful economic systems prior to colonialism. Allegedly due to ethnocentrism, Western analysts generally deem these prior interactions invalid and do not consider them "developed". The premise is that "to develop" is the same thing as "to develop in a western manner".
Suggestion for first para:
The term Third World originates from the 1950's and is used to describe the poorest countries in the world. The concept of the First, Second, Third, (and sometimes Fourth) World's is used to broadly categorize the nations of the Earth to three social, political, and economic divisions. The term Third World is often seen as inappropriate, and the term 'developing world' is preferred by many people and organisations. It is also known in some academic contexts as the Global South.
What does anybody think? Is this OK, or am I completely off-track?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ggillions (talk • contribs) 17:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The first paragraph 

message: The term "third world" could also come from the colonization of Africa (and Southeast Asia) during the 1800's. The "Old World" was Europe, and the "New World" was the Americas. The "third world" was used to describe these new areas that were being colonized. Eventually "third world" came to be a general term to use any developing nation.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.47.71.63 (talk) 02:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: All the sources I've read on this, attributed the term to French economist Alfred Sauvy in the 1950s. It originally referred to 'non-aligned' countries in Latin America, Africa, and Asia (that were not aligned with either the capitalist (First World) or Communist (Second World) blocs). I'll try and find the proper references for this and post them here. 01:47, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  entymology 

message: The map at the top of the article is has a lot of errors. I know because I have books that show first, second, and third worlds. Whoever made that map based it on political alliances during the Cold War when it is more about who is and is not economically developed/developing.  The US, Canada, W Europe, Australia, Canada, were First World, Russia and the former Soviet satellites in E Europe were the Second World (developed but not quite as much as the US and its allies). And Third World was pretty much everyone else, regardless of who they were allied with politically. Some scholars even considered there to be a Fourth World of very poor countries like Ethiopia and Haiti. The map has vietnam and cuba as being Second World which is insane to think they are of the same economic development as E Europe and Russia. The whole map needs to be redone or deleted outright.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.16.1 (talk) 19:29, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Originally the term did refer to the political alliances during the Cold War, and 'Third World' was used to refer to countries that were part of the 'non-aligned' movement. Over time, the usage of the word has shifted, particularly with the end of the Cold War and dissolution of the USSR and this original meaning has been somewhat lost or made redundant. This accounts for the different intepretations of which countries are included. I think a good approach would be to represent the debate, showing both intepretations. JenLouise (talk) 01:50, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if it does show political alliances during the Cold War, this map is still incorrect since it shows Switzerland and Austria as First World countries, but through most of the cold war, Austria tried to remain neutral (following the Swiss model) and was neither a part of NATO nor the Warsaw Pact and even to this day Switzerland tries to stay out of everything.
it shows china as 2nd world and all of latin america as 3rd world? It is the other way around. this is an example, a ton  of countrys are wrong
i believe it should be deletedPeppermintschnapps (talk) 19:15, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

text: Of course China is a 3rd world country, this article must be clean up asap, as it has misled alota people.----WWBread (talk) 08:38, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map at top of article is wrong 

message: NATO countries are better defined as democracies or rebublics.  It is better to look at the political differences between Warsaw Pact and NATO.  Many NATO countries have or have had various levels of socialist or welfare economies.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.225.74.187 (talk) 01:57, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  capitalist NATO 

message: why should india be among third world countries?? whatever maybe your resources. it is an offending  term to a country which in all respects is really "developing".
59.182.16.88 17:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not - read the caption for the map - that was during cold war time, in the other map - the one that's present day time - India is second world.--danielfolsom 18:10, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't see any present day map. India is most definitely not second world and never was. You're confusing the colloquial definition of Third World with the correct definition, one which Nehru himself championed as independent of First or Second. See the revised intro. Bdefore (talk) 23:27, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  India 

message: I don't believe that the "Definition" sections provides any clear definition of Third World at all. I know the definition of Third World is vague, but all we have here is a whole bunch of phrases like... "Global South", "developing countries", "The South"... etc not really a definition. Often the term "Third World" is used with no reference to industrialization or development at all, sometimes it is.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.121.251 (talk) 03:25, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a thought to share with no reference to mention, Third world is the term currently being used to define countries not on the base of Cold war scenario, or developed and under development scenario, but the term is a soft cover of the statement that those countries are considered uncivilized, opposite to the civilized world, regardless to how big is their economic mass or GDP or their per capita income, if the country's law and people do not go hand in hand and with the generally considered humanitarian laws, those countries are mentioned as 3rd world countries, I think if that definition is kept in mind it becomes very clear why China, India, Saudi Arabia are still 3rd world countries. Mkashif (talk) 12:56, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition 

message: Source one, "Appropripedia" does not seem to be an appropriate source. For one, it is a POV uber-politically correct propaganda machine, so it is totally possible that "Majority World" is an invention of one of its contributors... and Wikipedia is not the place for things made up one day. Also, it is a wiki... is it appropriate to cite a wiki... on another wiki? And unless I'm mistaken, the combined populations of the First and Second Worlds (China, Russia, Europe, and the U.S. anyone?) exceed those of the Third World, meaning this term is also patently innacurate. In my opinion, "Majority World" should be removed until a reliable, non-POV source can be found for it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.242.181.192 (talk) 01:34, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Innappropriate sourcing 

message: Ethiopia was a communist, Soviet allied country from the overthrow of the monarchy until collapse of communism. 
The famines they experienced were very similar to the European countries that experimented with collectivized agriculture.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.46.26.80 (talk) 18:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethiopia Second World?

message: The Michigan World History texbook claims that First World are countries aligned with EITHER the Soviet Union or the U.S.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.192.38.217 (talk) 17:54, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Second World

message: Reading the current edition of the article, I see that apparently both Nehru and Sauvy coined the term "Third World." So, what's going on here? There are also two conflicting definitions that I've seen. One is that the West is the First, the USSR was the Second, and the unallied nations are the Third. I assumed this to be correct, but further down it says the term originally referred to the countries in order of discovery, which makes no sense to me. Can someone who actually knows what they're talking about clear this up? - Searing Shadow  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.200.175.214 (talk) 04:53, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coining of the Term 

message: The map on the right is wrong, it shows that south africa was a third world country. During the cold war it was staunchly anit-communist and banned the SACP (SA communist party) and tried to align itself with the 1st world. Can someone please change this? Bezuidenhout (talk) 11:40, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  South Africa 

message: According to explanation in this article, based on political association, Yugoslavia was a third world country due to is non-aligned status and neutrality. Yugoslavia, along with India and Egypt were the founding members, so it is wrong to put it into the same group as former USSR, as it was never under Soviet jurisdiction nor was it a Soviet satellite country - so the picture on top of this page is wrong.
76.179.28.28 (talk) 09:32, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree, someone should change this map, it clearly states "the Soviet Union and its allies" - in red, and "Non-aligned and neutral countries" in green. Yugoslavia was founder and member of Non-aligned movement and therefore the map is inaccurate and misleading.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.52.235.234 (talk) 16:23, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed. Let's get on this ASAP. Who can change this map? This is no small problem.--Pac (talk) 20:25, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yugoslavia was the founding member of non-aligned 

message: LOOK ... MEMBERS OF OCDE ARE NOT THIRD WORLD. PLEASE CHANGE
--189.182.35.31 03:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why wouldn't you consider Mexico to be on the same level of economic development as those countries? Are Mexicans not white enough for you? Look at Mexico's HDI ranking. Mexico is ranked higher than Russia and half the countries in eastern europe.Immakingthisaccounttohidemyipaddress (talk) 16:14, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  MEXICO is not third world, it's member of OECD 

message: Brazil is the 9th largest economy. I fixed it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ricardorel (talk • contribs) 22:13, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brazil is not a third world 

message: The country map on the right shows the assignments in 1975. If you look at the same map on the German (Deutsch) article, you see a slightly different map. For example South Africa. Or Switzerland and Austria. The german map also says it's during cold war. Did I misunderstand something here or is one of the two maps wrong? Can we clean this up please? --193.134.254.20 (talk) 09:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong countries / cleanup required 

message: This article is about the history and origins of the term 'Third World', and just ignores or obfuscates the mainstream understanding of the term, i.e the collection of poor or developing countries.
The article needs to start again, defining what Third World means in everyday use, and then look at the history, origins etc of the term. Currently it is the other way round.
22:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article = very flawed 

message: I thought it was no longer politically correct to use the terms "first world" and "third world"--I thought it has been changed to "developed" and "developing," respectively. SweetNightmares (talk) 06:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Political correctness? 

message: Congratulations are due to Wikipedia for clarifying how the term "third world" is not to be confused with developing nations. Perhaps there could be an article stating how much controversy there is over what to call the latter nations? One suggestion has been that we should call these countries "the majority". If that makes certain things hit home with us, it should. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 20:40, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Conngratulations

message: "Third world" can be deragatory and disparaging term to non-white majority/former European colonial nations of Africa, Asia (we Americans know about the economic growth rates would change the color code of these countries on the 2009 survey world map) and Latin America (despite they're of European/Hispanic origin). The term is becoming not only archaic based on the post WWII-pre 2000 world, the "Developed north/developING south" and seven worlds index (some say eight or nine: the US is the top super power, and the median world in levels three to five) is gaining popularity and acceptance in the academia studies of the HDI (human development index) economic prosperity measurement of each one of the 203 current nations. Thus the best designation of the likes for India, Brazil, Mexico, Israel, South Africa and Albania is in the third to fifth world; while the least HDI in the countries of Niger, Haiti (western hemisphere), Laos (for Asia) and Malawi (southern hemisphere) is sixth to eighth world. 71.102.11.193 (talk) 13:41, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never heard anyone use "third world" in a derogatory sense, and I had never heard of the seven worlds index until now.  I do think the usage described in this article is outmoded.  Everyone I know uses "first-world" to describe the countries with the highest standard of living, and "third world" to describe those with the lowest.  (Even occasionally "second world" to describe those in-between).  From what I understand this formerly colloquial usage is now widespread and more used than any other meanings.  This article should reflect that.  Telanis (talk) 03:47, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, in the past 15-20 years, I don't think I've ever heard "third world" used to mean anything over than developing/underdeveloped countries, and only once or twice heard someone say that the term originated as a description of non-aligned nations in the Cold War.  Wardog (talk) 21:31, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It was never intended to be pejorative, it's that common usage among the public made it as such among the common man. But in academia it had a perfectly legitimate purpose. And I still use it in some of my college papers, and it's accepted. It's not necessarily disparaging, but it IS outdated. That much is true.71.190.188.238 (talk) 16:32, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third world's meaning in 2010 

message: This article shows the "Cold War alliances" map. The third world map is located at this address: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:First_second_third_worlds_map.svg . I don't know how to put it in however, someone else should take care of this.
QuentinV (talk) 05:09, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect Map 

message: Claiming that the 1st world is NATO, the second the Warsaw pact and all neutral countries, including Sweden, Finland, Switzerland etc is the third world is incorrect. It never had that usage. If you check that sources that are used they say something completely different:
After World War II the world split into two large geopolitical blocs and spheres of influence with contrary views on government and the politically correct society:
  1. The bloc of democratic-industrial countries within the American influence sphere, the "First World".
  2. The Eastern bloc of the communist-socialist states, the "Second World".
  3. The remaining three-quarters of the world's population, states not aligned with either bloc were regarded as the "Third World."
http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world_countries.htm See also http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3180660?uid=3738840&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21103470703547
This article should be updated to reflect this, it'll be a lot of work... Perhaps time to get active again, but Wikipedia tends to become such a time sink...
Help me out here peoples! :-) --83.26.128.20 (talk) 09:35, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is all completely wrong, and not supported by the sources. 

message: The map of india shows the PoK as part of pakistan. If the wiki entry for India is seen, that region is shown in a different color.
Keeping with consistency and neutral stand from Wiki standpoint, I would say this should be made the same in the map here
213.225.85.162 (talk) 12:06, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map of India 

message: To the extent the term has a negative connotation (which it can, but not as much as language police insist – see , , , , , , , though some modern use is ironic/self-conscious , , , , ), it's because its been reinterpreted (with original-meaning exceptions, of course, e.g. , , ) as a distinction from the New World and Old World powers, as a description of the places those powers had once aggressively colonized and still exploit and dominate (see, e.g.,  – hint: the Victorian era pre-dated the Cold War :-). 
This very usage shift is one of the reasons that some liberals, including Third World ones, still use the term, despite some ya-hoos also using it in a denigrating manner (that fact is what gives intentional use by progressives the power of irony, much like the positive use of "queer" today). The term has been reified in a way that, for some camps in the always-splintering Left, directly highlights the nature of the problem and who is collectively causing it.  In current parlance, it no longer means "you people who haven't picked a side yet" at all, and is compatible with non-thought-policing, classical-liberal politics.  This change in sense – toward an additional and now dominant meaning, not an erasure of the original – happened within my adult lifetime, and before the Cold War was even over. By the time I graduated high school in the mid-1980s, few of my generation thought of the Third World in terms of those places caught between communism (which was already seen as dying bear) vs. capitalism, but as that part of the world getting the short end of the stick from Old World aristocracy and innate superiority thinking, and the New World one-hand-giveth approach of promising democracy and reform and running off with all the loot (and maybe bombing you if you complain).
I really think we can do better here in covering "recent" (i.e. last 30 years of) usage and conceptualization. The majority of the first block of sources I cited probably have little if anything to do with Cold War era concepts except as historical background, judging from their synopses. The terms Old World and New World do not even appear anywhere in the article (though neither of those pages addresses their late 20th century to present meanings in socio-political discourse, which are ideological more than geographical, so all three articles need a reality check).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  07:17, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  We need more on the shift in usage 

message: === Newly industrialized countries  ===
Countries that have more advanced economies than developing nations in the Third World,but have not yet attained the level of developed countries in the First World, are grouped under the term Newly Industrialized Countries or NICs. These countries are: China, India, Mexico,  Brazil, Turkey, Thailand, Malaysia, Philippines and the GCC states. However countries that are in the N-11 and are emerging markets such as Senegal, Kenya and Egypt are moving towards becoming New Industrialized Countries.
*Needs sources, also needs to be checked to make sure this is indeed related to the topic. (does it really need a whole section, or can we put the modern terms in a section by itself.) —— Eagle101Need help? 23:37, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:Spotlight]] 

message: Countries that have more advanced economies than developing nations in the Third World,but have not yet attained the level of developed countries in the First World, are grouped under the term Newly Industrialized Countries or NICs. These countries are: China, India, Mexico,  Brazil, Turkey, Thailand, Malaysia, Philippines and the GCC states. However countries that are in the N-11 and are emerging markets such as Senegal, Kenya and Egypt are moving towards becoming New Industrialized Countries.
*Needs sources, also needs to be checked to make sure this is indeed related to the topic. (does it really need a whole section, or can we put the modern terms in a section by itself.) —— Eagle101Need help? 23:37, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newly industrialized countries  

message: This is just a note to myself - i'll add it in soon.
--danielfolsom 00:37, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Gap between First and Third Worlds

message: Please don't think us insane. Its just easier to organize things this way. If anyone would like to write a section please do! —— Eagle101Need help? 02:56, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note on blank sections 

message: *
*
As long as no one puts blank sections in the article, of course. :-)   — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  07:19, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Foreign debt

message: Your article on Third World should, in my view, mention the inventor of the term "Third World", Alfred Sauvy, a French economist.
Extract from Wikipedia:
In an article published in the French magazine, L'Observateur on August 14, 1952, Alfred Sauvy said:
"...car enfin, ce Tiers Monde ignoré, exploité, méprisé comme le Tiers Etat, veut lui aussi, être quelque chose"
"...because at the end this ignored, exploited, scorned Third World like the Third Estate, wants to become something too".
In using the expression Third World here he was paraphrasing Sieyès's famous sentence about the Third Estate during the French Revolution..
Regards,
Pierre Lepinoy  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Plepinoy (talk • contribs) 11:35, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  third world 

message: I think it would be helpful to add a section to how countries who were considered to be a part of the "Third World" responded to the classification. I would further discuss the Bandung Conference, which took place on 24 April 1955 and the Non Aligned Summit Conference (September 1961).Frannywood (talk) 00:34, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response to the creation of the "Third World"  

message: Text should read: "...has vanished,.." not "...was vanished,..".
2602:30A:2CFC:B1A0:B1BE:EC38:3982:E170 (talk) 00:42, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Income Distribution 2015 

message: User:Capitals00, you reverted my recent edits to the lead without a real explanation, just saying "not needed". I do think these edits were useful to point people directly to the fact that the term Third World in common language has been replaced with developing countries. It would be nice if we could talk about it here and reach consensus rather than just undoing my edits. I'd appreciate that. See also previous discussion about exactly that on the talk page higher up, namely this comment from 2012 which I think still holds "This article is about the history and origins of the term 'Third World', and just ignores or obfuscates the mainstream understanding of the term, i.e the collection of poor or developing countries.
The article needs to start again, defining what Third World means in everyday use, and then look at the history, origins etc of the term. Currently it is the other way round.". EMsmile (talk) 03:24, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a general misunderstanding and we cannot put it on first paragraph of lead by claiming it as established definition. Capitals00 (talk) 03:29, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for your reply. The statement is currently towards the end of the lead. What speaks against moving it to the first paragraph (given that a lot of people won't read further than the first paragraph)? Also you didn't think my proposed new hatnote was any good? I thought it might help to reduce confusion for lay persons. If not, do you have better suggestions for making this clearer? EMsmile (talk) 03:35, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Why were my edits reverted

message: I propose to move this content away from this article and rather to developing countries or to development aid. Probably it needs careful editing and updating, too. I think it does not fit into this aticle which should more be about the historical concept of Third World.
This is the paragraph in question:
However, despite decades of receiving aid and experiencing different development models (which have had very little success), many Third World countries' economies are still dependent on developed countries, and are deep in debt."First, Second and Third World" There is now a growing debate about why Third World countries remain impoverished and underdeveloped after all this time. Many argue that current methods of aid are not working and are calling for reducing foreign aid (and therefore dependency) and utilizing different economic theories than the traditional mainstream theories from the West.Mehmet, Ozay, (1995). Mainstream economic development theories have failed to come up with a model that appropriately supports development in the Third World. Westernizing the Third World (Ch 1), Routledge Historically, development and aid have not accomplished the goals they were meant to, and currently the global gap between the rich and poor is greater than ever,Westra, Richard (2011). "Renewing Socialist Development in the Third World", Journal of Contemporary Asia, 41(4): 519-543. though not everybody agrees with this.Korotayev A., Zinkina J. On the structure of the present-day convergence. Campus-Wide Information Systems. Vol. 31 No. 2/3, 2014, pp. 139-152 EMsmile (talk) 03:39, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now moved this text block (and a bit more) to the article called Aid effectiveness#Other theories where it fits much better. EMsmile (talk) 13:55, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Some WP:SYNTH is there. I will check the provided references but for now you did it fine with moving it. Capitals00 (talk) 16:42, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal to move content about development aid

message: I'm starting a discussion for one of my students, who wishes to merge this page with Third-Worldism. I'll let him explain the reasons why, but it looks like it's most likely because the two pages are fairly small and there may not be a need for two articles. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 15:12, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Closing, given the uncontested objection and stale discussion. Klbrain (talk) 21:01, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge with [[Third-Worldism]] 

message: The Intro is written as a persuasive article arguing that the term “Third world” is outdated or misrepresents the current state of the world. 2600:1000:B149:1F3F:481D:C4FE:5237:F337 (talk) 01:42, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persuasive style