Talk:Penrith, Cumbria

message: The church yard has some (possibly early Anglo-Saxon) standing stones in it, known now as the "Giant's Thumb" and "Giant's Grave"
I wonder at the legitimacy of saying 'possibly early Anglo-Saxon'.  I will remove this, not that I'm an authority, but I do know that Anglo-Saxon as a cultural element was very late coming to Cumbria, possibly about 10th century, and as such could not be 'early' Anglo-Saxon (more likely just Angle?) unless these people were invited into the kingdom to dwell, which I doubt.  Enzedbrit 22:56, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is one reference and it cannot be correct.  For a start, the Angles came to northern Britain, and in Cumbria, they arrived much later than the Teutonic invasion.  Dates do not fit. Enzedbrit 06:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, why would Saxons, who we accept as residing in the south, erect a monument in the north, beyond what was taken even as Angle territory, to a British king? Enzedbrit 22:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Doubt it: http://www.visitcumbria.com/pen/chp2.htm - I'll take this over someone's blog. Enzedbrit 20:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archaeology

message: The article says: "The Penrith dialect known as Penrithian, is a diasystem of the Cumbrian dialect spoken around the Penrith and Eden district area" but this use of "diasystem" doesn't seem to match up with the Wikipedia entry for diasystem. Also, is Penrithian a dialect or an accent? Northernhenge (talk) 09:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dialect 

message: Penrith is certainly not the least populated unparished area in England.  There are numerous examples with smaller populations, including Longdendale, Riddings, Audenshaw and Wardle, to name just four.  I have deleted the comment, which was uncited. Skinsmoke (talk) 05:28, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unparished area 

message: It seems to me that this piece should mention the fact that Penrith had the highest levels of haplogroup R1a1 of any place tested in the British Isles in the landmark study conducted by Capelli et. al, "A Y Chromosome Census of the British Isles." Penrith's rate of R1a1 was estimated at some eight percent by Capelli, and was seen as an indication of the heavy Scandinavian influence in the area, which boasts other signs of Scandinavian settlement like hogback tombstones, archaeological remains and linguistic traces in place names. MarmadukePercy (talk) 10:19, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genetics 

message: May also note Chris Dale (1962-2011):
:Chris Dale was a 198-centimetre-tall mountaineer with a passion for solo climbs among the hardest peaks of Scotland, Wales and the Alps. He was also an equally enthusiastic cross-dresser who went by the name of Crystal.
And more, identifying him as born in "Penrith, England":  Daily Telegraph (London), 3 March 2011 --Rofish (talk) 22:45, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: He needs to have his own WP page to be classed as notable, and seems as if he would qualify for one.--Charles (talk) 22:56, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable people 

message: I have rewritten the section on toponymy, as the existing information cited no sources and contained a lot of opinion and evident guesswork in contradiction of Wikipedia's rules. The original is quoted below:
:The name Penrith is Cumbric, the British language spoken in Cumbria and Lancashire until about the 11th century.  However, there is a great deal of debate over the meaning of the name Penrith. There are two main strands of opinion. One is that the name comes from the word for "chief ford"; the other is that it means "red hill". It is much more likely that the second theory is the correct one. The main problem with the "chief ford" theory is twofold; first, the nearest ford is located more than a mile away from the original settlement heart of Penrith. Second, the name does not match known Celtic syntax. Celtic languages nearly always used "reversed word order" in place names. That is, the generic term precedes the specific identifier. For Penrith to mean "chief ford" would require the Cumbrians to have abandoned this naming strategy as the place name elements "pen" and "rhyd" are in the order one would see them in English.
:The second theory of "red hill" is much more likely. First, it respects the syntax - "hill red". Second, it respects the first principle of toponymy. That is, it identifies what is there at the site (the red sandstone of Beacon Hill) and not a location some distance away. The name "red hill" also gains support from other evidence. The modern Welsh name for Penrith is Penrhudd. This also means "red hill" and is pronounced almost the same, albeit with the voiced eth (ð) sound of "bathe": . There is a village near to Penrith named Penruddock which is accepted to be a Cumbric name and to mean "little red hill" (pen + rhudd + og), Furthermore, there is an area between Penrith and Penruddock that is still named Redhills.
The problems with this section are identified as:
* "great deal of debate" - evidence?
* "It is much more likely that the second theory is the correct one" - according to whom?
* "the nearest ford is located more than a mile away from the original settlement heart of Penrith" - what evidence is there for the location of the original settlement?  The medieval town may not have developed in the same location as the original settlement. The course of the River Eamont may also have moved since the early middle ages.  In addition, if the purpose of the original settlement was to control the crossing of the river, it would not necessarily have developed on the river itself - site away from the river might have been preferable to avoid flooding.  In any case, since the name doesn't make reference to a settlement, it describes a landscape feature, there's no reason to assume per se that the location of the settlement at any time had any baring on its derivation.
* "the name does not match Celtic syntax... English" - this is confused and arrives at a false conclusion.  Brythonic place names may consist of: (A) improper compounds, in which the 'normal' word order of noun + adjective is used, or (B) proper compounds, in which the 'reverse' order (adj + noun) is used.  Examples of both types can be seen in Welsh and supposedly Cumbric names:  eg. (A) Glendue 'glen + black', Nanmor 'valley + large' vs. Culgaith 'narrow + wood', Glascoed 'green + wood'. The assertion that Celtic languages 'nearly always' use proper compounds is therefore false, and the actual word order of Celtic languages has been confused.  Penrith, if meaning 'chief ford', IS an example of a proper compound with the 'reverse' word order so the author's dismissal of it on these grounds is unfounded.
*"respects the syntax" - the author's theories about Celtic syntax have already been shown to be false.  If they were true, a derivation from 'red hill' would be in defiance.
* "respects the first principle of toponymy..." - where is this set out as a principle?  There are numerous examples of place names moving or being transferred.  The name Brough was used to refer to three separate villages in the Eden valley but was original to only one.  London was also used for several ancient settlements in the general vicinity of Roman Londonion.  The town of Windermere isn't actually on the Lake from which it takes its name. 
* "Welsh names for Penrith is Penrhudd" - evidence?  Is this a genuine survival or a late phonetic or learned development?
* "is pronounced the same" - the modern Welsh pronunciation of penrhudd is irrelevant to the discussion of a medieval Cumbric name.
* "Penruddock" - the derivation of Penruddock itself is open to dispute.  Ekwall says 'the second element is obscure'.
Psammead (talk) 17:07, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Toponymy 

message: This link was added to the article after discussion on the WP Reliable Sources Noticeboard. See: WP:RSN exercise. No information from the CCHT link has been put into the body of the article in the form of citations because it has not yet been verified for 100% accuracy by the Victoria County History project for Cumbria. (This will take several years to do).  Laplacemat (talk) 13:38, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  CCHT external link 

message: The Winter Droving may in itself lack significance for inclusion in the article but it is referenced in the Community Plan and is presumably supported by the BID so could be included under economy or an arts section. I see that in this edit,  reverted 's edit adding the description so I haven't added anything yet myself but I think it merits discussion. --Northernhenge (talk) 19:47, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Then find reliable independent sources for it, such as newspaper articles. The edit I reverted was plain promotion, sourced only to the organisation/organisers, with Eden Arts too prominently mentioned, and inappropriate inline external links to both winterdroving.uk and edenarts.co.uk (masquerading as references without being real/valid references...). - Tom | Thomas.W  talk 20:35, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Winter Droving 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on Penrith, Cumbria. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081013213934/http://www.cumberland-news.co.uk/news/1.253132 to http://www.cumberland-news.co.uk/news/1.253132
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110109072019/http://www.eden.gov.uk/your-council/communicating-with-the-public/media-releases/media-releases-2010/new-squares-proposal-gets-go-ahead/ to http://www.eden.gov.uk/your-council/communicating-with-the-public/media-releases/media-releases-2010/new-squares-proposal-gets-go-ahead/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120206164520/http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/extremes/monthly_temperature_country.html to http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/extremes/monthly_temperature_country.html
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090806015543/http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.6648&lon=-2.7548&zoom=15&layers=B000FTF to http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.6648&lon=-2.7548&zoom=15&layers=B000FTF
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The citations needed box dated December 2007, this can now be removed, as the article now appears to have suitable citations. 
Devokewater 15:09, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations needed box

message: A date change is necessary - 'The first elections to the new authority will take place in May 2022.'
Came across [Penrith boundary war begins as town is officially placed 'in wrong county' after decades (msn.com)] - a relevant reference? Jackiespeel (talk) 09:21, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I've updated the language to put 2022 in the past. The source for the "campaign" only seems to mention one petitioner so (just my personal view) I've left it alone. --Northernhenge (talk) 13:13, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Sometimes 'a passing mention on the talk page' (and see what happens) is the most appropriate course of action. Jackiespeel (talk) 19:21, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  2023 changes to Local Government