Talk:Wahhabism

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: not moved. Per consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 14:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Wahhabism →  – Consistency in nomenclature as per the page titles of Salafi movement, Barelvi movement and as per 
proposed title change at Deobandi  by . Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 09:23, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

text: Oppose: I agree that consistency is a good thing in principle, but it does not override basic common name concerns. Wahhabism is very dominant . Iskandar323 (talk) 10:46, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

text: That is true, but it is because the words are used for different things. Just "Wahhabi" as an adjective could appear in front of any numbers of different nouns, such as 'Wahhabi cleric', 'Wahhabi mosque', etc., so that comparison is not serving to usefully distinguish between usage of "Wahhabism" and "Wahhabi movement" as set phrases. The Oxford Dictionary of Islam today uses "Wahhabis" plural (so another collective term), while all other Oxford Dictionaries use "Wahhabhism" . Wahhabism incidentally has it own consistency with Salafism and other "ism" words. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:05, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

text: Relisting comment: For a clearer consensus. – robertsky (talk) 06:38, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

text: Note: WikiProject Islam has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 06:39, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 19 December 2022 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:06, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion 

message: Iskandar323,  criticism section can be expanded in the other article. Criticism sections of religious movements and ideologies are given seperate articles. Comparison with other Salafi movements can also have a seperate. In the history section, some texts can be summarised to shorten the points but thats probably it. Most the events described are relevant to the main article.
Or one must take the tedious task of summarising the entire history section in this article, while making a seperate history section article. Also note that to reduce core sections while maintaining the criticism section, while it has its own seperate article; leads to WP:BIAS; which is another reason to have a seperate article for it.
shadowwarrior8 (talk) 20:06, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @Shadowwarrior8: Hi, ok, so the facts are these: the article is currently 150kB of readable prose, 50% more than the recommended length at which WP:SPLIT states an article: . And the only two sections that are so large that their removal would be able to make a major dent in the size of the article are "History" and "Views". Now the main function of an article about a religious branch /group /movement is to outline what that group is, its believe, views and practices, so "Views" is absolutely essential to the core subject of the article. That leaves us with history, for which there is a longstanding Wikipedia practice of creating "History of X" child articles to achieve precisely the kind of page size reduction that we needs here, and I do not personally find the idea of summarizing the history section all that daunting. I find it is far easier to be selective when it is known that the material is preserved in full elsewhere. On the contrary, for reasons already mentioned, I disagree with the use of removing the criticism section. This would simply create two unbalanced articles, here and the child. Here, there would be support and no criticism, and in the child there would be criticism, but not counter-criticism. Here, on the other hand, the balance can never be fundamentally ruptured so long as there are both support and criticism sections operating together in tandem. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:31, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

text: Yes, perhaps, or simply just better summarized - there are a lot of lengthy paragraphs in that section with just a single reference located at the end. Whether these are single-sourced or just partially unsourced, the representation is undue. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:06, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

text: Ok, so - since you are responsible for most of this article, shall I leave it to you to copy the history across to "" (currently a redirect) and take credit for that page's creation? I will then assist with summarizing here. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:11, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Since this will be a big split, care needs to be taken to follow WP:PROPERSPLIT and properly attribute this article as the source for the content and the place to go to understand the attribution and history of the copied content/sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:14, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I have moved the relevant contents to History of Wahhabism. The article prosesize is reduced to 92 KB. Now we need to summarize the History section Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 17:50, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There are just a couple of broken refs to deal with, but I'll try and fix them. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:12, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Done ... it's kinda  nuts that it's still only just below the 100kB theshold. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:19, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

text: Sure Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 15:32, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Splitting sections 

message: first of all his name is Muhammad and his father is wahhabi. To be correct you should call them Muhammadi. Buy that's not correct either. The correct term is salafism. Because salafi literally means pious predecessor and it's derived from the name for 3 generations of the companions of the prophet Mohammad saw namely salaf al salih that means the pious predecessors. So if you're against this you're automatically against the prophet Mohammad saw and the companions Ra. Salafism is not only in Saudi it's all over the world. Everybody that follows the way of Muhammad saw and of the companions Ra they're salafi's. The other sects follow their desires and want to give it their spin to it. But the Sunnah contradicts their believes. And the we the traditionalists, salafi's, the people that adhere to the Sunnah of the prophet Mohammad saw and the companions Ra we confront them with the truth and they don't like it. Because they're innovators that are committing idolatry which is forbidden in islam. It will take you out of the fold of Islam. So people don't let yourselfs get fooled. Do your research. Don't let them demonise our pious predecessors and scholars. May Allah guide you all. 196.77.249.186 (talk) 01:10, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: may Allah reward you and aid us salafis. Jazakallahu khairan for helping clarity the truth. Religious Conspiracy Theorist (sus) (talk) 21:15, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wahhabism is a incorrect western term 

message: @Shadowwarrior8: If you have some spare energy, it would be good to build on the progress we made with the splitting off of the history section. I don't necessarily think anything else needs to be split, but I think that quite a lot of sections with their own existing child articles could potentially be better summarized/trimmed of the more undue, overly detailed or poorly supported content. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:32, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @Iskandar323 I shall trim that particularly large "Militant & Political Islam" sub-section in International influence and propagation and move it to a seperate section in International propagation of Salafism and Wahhabism article. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 11:40, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we also need to do something about "Definitions and etymology" - it's fairly of control. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:55, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Still a bit long 

message: This section needs to be sorted through and turned into a useful, prose summary. The list that currently exists in place of this is just the sourcing, the first part of the job, with the write-up left incomplete. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:30, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definitions 

message: Le Le terme Wahhabisme est attribué auShaykh Muhhammad AbdulWahhab car il fut l'un de ceux qui ont revivifié l'appel au tawhid (l'unicité) dans la moitié du 12ème siècle après l'hégire (1750). Il fut épaulé dans cette revivification par le prince, l'imam Muham-mad Ibn Saud,. L'affiliation au Wahhabisme est utilisée par les ennemis de l'islam, les ennemis du tawhid, les ennemis de la sounnah, et ce jusqu'à ce que chaque ennemi de la sounnah et du tawhid traite les gens du tawheed et de la sounnah de wahhabites, et ceci en référence au terme wahhabisme. De même ce qualificatif ne lui a jamais été attribué par les savants de la da'wah (l'appel) de son vivant, ni attribué à ses enfants, petits enfants et frères dans la da'wah et ce jusqu'à notre époque. Et personne n'utilise ce terme si ce n'est les gens des superstitions, les gens des innovations, les gens du shirk. Ils sont ceux qui attribuent les gens de la sounnah à ceci...De plus,la croyance du Sheikh Muhammad ibn abd el wahhab n'est autre que la croyance SALAFIYYAH qui n'est pas TERRORISTE,le terrorisme n'a rien à voir avec la salfiyyah ,les terroristes ont eux une croyance DEXAGERATION qui n'est pas la croyance de la salafiyyah.
Le Minhaj as Salafi repose sur le Coran et la Sounnah authentique. C'est la religion de l'Islam pure, libérée de tout ajout, diminution ou altération. C'est adhérer à la voie du Messager (Mohammed e)et des vrais croyants, les pieux prédécesseurs (As-Salaf us-Salih). 
 As-Salaf est un terme général se référant aux pieux prédécesseurs de l'Islam et à tous ceux qui suivent leurs pas dans leur croyance, actes et morale.
La description de « Salafi » s'applique à toute personne qui se cramponne vraiment aux Salafs. Ce n'est pas l'attachement à une personne singulière ou à un groupe de personnes, c'est l'attachement à une voie qui ne se détournera jamais du chemin du Prophète (Mohammed) , de ses compagnons et de ceux qui les suivent vraiment. De plus la Salafia ne repose pas sur le fait de suivre un Cheikh en particulier ou un imam, c'est une adhésion au Coran et à la Sounnah authentique comme l'ont compris et pratiqués l'ensemble des pieux prédécesseurs (as-Salaf us-Salih).
Le véritable Salafi met en valeur le TAWHID qui est le fait de vouer tous nos actes d'adoration à Allah exclusivement : dans l'invocation, dans la demande du secours, dans l'appel au refuge dans la facilité et la difficulté, dans l'immolation, dans le serment, dans la crainte, dans l'espoir, dans la confiance totale en Lui ...
Le véritable Salafi cherche activement à réprouver le
CHIRK (polythéisme) par tous les moyens. Il sait que la victoire est impossible sans le Tawhid et que le Chirk ne peut se combattre par lui même (c'est-à-dire : ce n'est pas avec une forme de Chirk que l'on peut combattre le Chirk). Le véritable Salafi adhère à la Sounnah du Prophète (Paix et bénédiction d'Allah sur lui) et de ses compagnons après lui. 197.244.10.246 (talk) 18:12, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Also, this is the English Wikipedia, so you should write in English in most cases. If you want to suggest an edit to the French version of this article, please make the request at the talk page on the French Wikipedia. Liu1126 (talk) 17:17, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demande d'édition semi-protégée le 31 octobre 2023 

message: As is mentioned in the article, "Wahhabism" does not seem to refer to any kind of distinct movement or philosophy within Islam or among its followers. Is it really justified for this page to even exist, since all the things described actually pertain to Salafism? In my opinion having this whole page for what is essentially an exonym is not only confusing, but actually problematic. It also seems to have been the opinion a few contributors on this page have tried to get through, albeit in a very engaged way.
On the Salafism and International propagation of Salafism and Wahhabism pages they seem to be used almost interchangeably. Is there an historical distinction that has disappeared, or am I fundamentally misunderstanding something there? If it's the former then this page should probably be way shorter and focus on that in my opinion. Choucas Bleu (talk) 15:19, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relevance of this page relative to [[Salafi movement]]