Talk:Church of the Nativity

message: I have taken out the following material, as there is no source cited and it clearly isn't accurate even if there is a true story behind it (the Church of the Nativity is a building so it can't excommunicate anyone). If anyone can come up with a sourced and factually accurate version feel free to put a mention of it into the article, at more proportionate length. Palmiro | Talk 15:30, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a little note: when one says that a church did this or that, it doesn't literally mean that the church building did that (which is absurd), but the people associated with that church. VVVladimir (talk) 17:16, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Excommunication of World Leaders

message: I've done some major re-working of the article with regard to format, adding info and pics.  I'd appreciate any further input anyone can make, esp. regarding the Church of St. Catherine (for instance, why is it named for St. Catherine?) and any architectural details that might be informative and relevant. Also, does anyone have a suggestion for a better heading than ==Compound==? I thought it was better than the previous one, but only mildly so. By the way, if anyone has access to one, a better picture of Manger Square would be nice. MishaPan 09:06, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Re-Work

message: I recall that Armenians usually celebrate Christmas on January 6 worldwide, but the article doesn't mention this as the date they celebrate in Bethlehem. Anybody know? Crushti (talk) 00:52, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian celebration 

message: UNESCO thought the subject was notable for its historical value. This article puts more emphasis on UNESCO and the occupation than the history that UNESCO thought was important. 71.35.143.113 (talk) 06:42, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Paragraphs

message: In conclusion of the discussion, and observing the further development (or lack thereof) of the new article after the time this discussion was started, I am closing the above merge proposal as consensus to merge, including a strong recommendation to trim the merged content considerably. In merging, editors should also keep in mind that Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS, so there is no need to include lengthy literal quotations from multiple observers. There is also the issue of avoiding WP:COATRACK material, i.e. discussion that is more concerned with Palestinian UNESCO membership in general than with the actual church. I'll leave the implementation of the merge to editors of these pages, but my personal recommendation would be to start with something that might be as brief as the following rough-and-dirty sketch:
:In June 2012, the church was listed as a World Heritage Site by UNESCO. It was the first listing of a site in the Palestinian territories, made after an application of the Palestinian authorities, and came eight months after Palestine had been admitted as a full member of UNESCO. The listing was approved after a fast-track, emergency candidacy, which was requested by the Palestinian delegation on the grounds of urgent needs of restoration of the site. The decision to list the church as a World Heritage Site was met with political reactions from various sides. Palestinian representatives greeted the decision as an important signal towards international recognition of Palestinian sovereignty. Representatives of Israel and the USA, which had been opposed to the Palestinian UNESCO membership, voiced disapproval of the decision and described it as politically motivated.
Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:40, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur. Hiberniantears (talk) 00:59, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Inspite of the above decision, one Lihaas is insisting on restoring the article Church of the Nativity World Heritage Site Controversy. I would suggest he accepted the common decision. Thanks, Ori (talk) 09:11, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Closure 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I have removed some nonsense (Constantinian church consisting of two courtyards [!!!] and a rotunda), updated the reconstruction (enclosed  broken pentagonal apse, no quasi-freestanding octagonal tower-like rotunda). Previous quotations were given w/o URL; if (!) still valid, the measures can be reintroduced by whoever has access. Thanks,   Arminden (talk) 11:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Size Constantinian church 

message: In a single sentence the paragraph credits the 2nd church to Justinian without giving any quotes or other forms of proof. While it's correct that the 2nd church was for a long time credited to him by historians, the theory is not undisputed anymore. Several articles mention, that the church may be built by him or may be build even earlier. As far as I know, there is actually no historical source crediting the church to Justinian. --131.220.244.26 (talk) 14:17, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the current, dominant narrative.  But the cult of Tammuz had been in the region for at least seven centuries, and sacred caves have had a very long relationship with paganism, with caves long being associated with the birth canal of the Earth Mother.  This notion that the grotto was converted to pagan worship after the birth of Jesus is highly suspect. Viriditas (talk) 09:36, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Justinian's basilica (565) 

message: :
This is the current, dominant narrative.  But the cult of Tammuz had been in the region for at least seven centuries, and sacred caves have had a very long relationship with paganism, with caves long being associated with the birth canal of the Earth Mother.  This notion that the grotto was converted to pagan worship after the birth of Jesus is highly suspect. Viriditas (talk) 09:36, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Represent competing views? 

message: The Bethlehem article states that "The Church of the Nativity was built at her initiative." . In this article it's her who identifies the place.
I know people love their female deities and saints, but this seems highly dubious. This was an imperial project, Constantine had embarked on a state-(re)building initiative, with Christianity as the new state religion, and therefore needed to raise the new holy sites to the rank and fame held until then by temples like those in Rome, Athens, Delos, Ephesus etc. After Jerusalem, Bethlehem, already adopted into Christian "holy geography" since at least the 2nd c., was an obvious candidate for an imperial church. The theological argument (pophecy of the Messiah coming from the "house of David") had its own weight. Bishop Makarios knew for sure about the site and was corresponding with the emperor.
How plausible is Helena's role, beyond the pious legend? Which are the ancient sources, and how are they regarded by modern scholars?
N.b.: clerics, even if widely recognised as scholars, such as R. Brownrigg and J. Murphy-O'Connor, are unlikely to go against fundamental narratives of the Church. Secular scholars seem to me more credible in such contexts. Arminden (talk) 23:20, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Helena's role