Talk:Battle of Fredericksburg

message: The date and place info in this article isn't the same as on this site.  --brian0918 talk 22:42, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Date and place

message: I've added the quote said by Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain after the war.
65.255.130.104 22:02, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, I reverted that change without providing an explanation in the edit history. Sorry, I will do it here. That quotation, provided without citation and poorly formatted, really has nothing to do with the aftermath of the battle. It may be more appropriate in Chamberlain's bio. Also, we don't do 'decisive.' See User:Hlj/adjectives. Hal Jespersen 23:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added: Quote 

message: Please add details/link for "Sumner".  Assume you mean "Edwin Vose Sumner", but only his last name is
used with no explanation or reference.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.170.53.179 (talk) 02:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing reference: Sumner 

message: I'd like some advice before making a change.
Nowadays we use the term "Main Effort" for the principal attack by a force and "Shaping Effort" for an attack which is to pin other enemy forces in place.  The attack against Jackson was Burnside's Main Effort (altho' bungled orders denied it the force it needed to be successful) and the attack on Longstreet was the Shaping Effort.  Where is a good place to put that in the article?  CsikosLo (talk) 18:39, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: When you say "we" I assume you are not talking about ACW authors, but about modern military writers. We generally avoid 20th/21st century military terminology unless the average civilian reader would be familiar with it. (I was in the Army for over 8 years and I never heard the term Shaping Effort that I can recall.) So I don't object to rewordings for clarity, but please find nonjargonistic ways to say it. Hal Jespersen (talk) 21:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, I think I can find a way to do that.  Wonder though, we do we use archaic terms rather than modern/current ones?  I've encountered this before here and it still mystifies me. CsikosLo (talk) 15:41, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

text: I can't think of too many 'archaic' terms in use, other than 'torpedo', but we always explain that. There are also fortification-related terms like redoubt, redan, etc., but there isn't much that can be done about those. The key stylistic test is whether a term appears in many of the numerous modern military history books not published by the DoD. Our potential readers are overwhelmingly not US military. Hal Jespersen (talk) 18:39, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Main Effort vs Shaping Effort 

message: The article refers to a penetration on Jackson's front, making it appear that Meade broke through there, but that is not the case.  Altho' Maxcy's Brigade was defeated, other forces (the term that comes to mind is secondary and tertiary defensive belts) were in place and were able to patch the hole in short order (altho' at some cost), most notably Early's Division but also D. H. Hill's, which was positioned along Mine Road.  I'll take a look later at rewording that section when I have more time available, if someone else doesn't get to it first.  CsikosLo (talk) 18:39, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Penetration? 

message: User 72.221.69.79 was been adding Longstreet & Jackson to the Conf. side of the infobox, as well as to the BoAnt, BoChanc, and others. Do we want this kind of expansion there? I we do the Union side should reflect this as well by adding key Corps commanders and such, and the list would be long and probably arbitrary in selection. What is the consensus? Kresock (talk) 17:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, I have been reverting some of these changes before reading this Talk page. I guess my opinion should be apparent. :-)  I think the only time we should have multiple commanders listed on a side should be those cases where isolated units from larger organizations were fighting. If two armies are generally engaged with each other, listing only the army commanders should be adequate, or we will be descending into editing hell putting entire orders of battle into the infoboxes.  I am sure there are deviations from this already out there. (An example: the first battle I thought of that is an obvious exception is Battle of Perryville, where Alexander McCook's corps was the primary fighting element of Don Carlos Buell's army. So both of those guys are listed. On the Confederate side, I'm not sure why Leonidas Polk is listed in addition to Braxton Bragg. He probably should not be. Maybe it was simply to have a balance of names.) Hal Jespersen (talk) 17:25, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commanders 

message: I recently attended a talk about the Battle of Fredericksburg at Chatham Manor, the house across the Rappahannock which was used as a headquarters and hospital by the Union troops during the battle.  The ranger mentioned that the battle was noteworthy for several reasons: it was one of the bloodiest urban battles in American history, if not the bloodiest; the building of the pontoon bridges marked the first time that troops attempted a bridging maneuver while under enemy fire (and as such could be considered a predecessor of the marine landings of World War II); and it was the first time that the civilian population of an American city was subjected to shelling.  I had also heard that the Sunken Road was considered by some military historians to be a precursor of the trench warfare of World War I.  I may have misremembered some of these, and of course an oral report isn't a reliable source.  But if these are accurate, and if they've been noted by reliable sources (military historians, et al.), I think that these would be noteworthy additions to the article. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:01, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't comment on your first three points, but the fourth, shelling a populated US city, I have to believe the British hit some civilians (on purpose or not) during the American Revolution or in 1812. The natural trench at Antietam might be considered a precursor, just as are land mines, complicated entrenchments, ironclads, the turret, water torpedoes, subs in combat, etc. With more eyes on this, I bet examples and sources will be brought forward. Be patient, I guess! Kresock (talk) 02:39, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In my years fooling with Wikipedia, I have found it very difficult to sustain arguments about 'first', 'biggest', 'worst', 'bloodiest', etc. Few reputable secondary sources come out and say such things and counter-examples always show up. It is unclear what the real definition of "urban battle" is, for example. The real carnage at FB was south of town and at Marye's Heights, neither of which you'd consider urban. There was some shelling of the town, but few casualties resulted because almost everyone evacuated. If 'urban' means in or near a town, then Gettysburg was much bloodier. Although FB was one of the first instances of field fortifications playing a major role in defense in the war, it was not literally the first. Check out Battle of Fort Donelson or Second Battle of Corinth, two examples that spring to mind. Hal Jespersen (talk) 14:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

text: My point was that a few scattered houses might not be what people think of when the term 'urban combat' is used. Any attempt to compare the pontoon builders at FB to the amphibious landings at Normandy or Iwo Jima would be laughable and I would not advise it. Hal Jespersen (talk) 14:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the park ranger made that comparison and nobody laughed, but I'm sure you know the subject well enough. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable firsts, etc. 

message: I have removed the uncited paragraph about traversed trenches. There is a description of this architecture in Piston's biography of Longstreet, Lee's Tarnished Lieutenant, but they make it clear that this is work done after the battle on the 35 mile long Rappahannock line. Hess's Field Armies and Fortifications in the Civil War also indicates that this post-battle line did not represent any innovation beyond designs that were already in the military literature of the time. Furthermore, the references I have about the battle indicate that the Confederate artillery was well protected, but the infantry did not construct elaborate earthworks. Hal Jespersen (talk) 16:00, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  trenches 

message: The section regarding John Pelham has an error. It says that he held off the union with two canons, but really it was only one. One of John Pelham's canon broke very quickly, and the majority of his maneuvering was with a single canon.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.248.160.122 (talk) 03:39, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not an error exactly, just a short summary. Even his page offers this brief version, as does the book by Eicher (p. 400) in the references. However, I think I've read somewhere that he used only two guns to greatly slow Meade's force, then one was damaged by heavy Union artillery fire, leaving him with one, and he still continued to annoy their advance. Big, big balls on that young man! It might be from one of the Time-Life books or one of Catton's; I'll look into it. Perhaps another user can add to Pelham's account in the meantime, have patience. Kresock (talk) 04:37, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not sure the difference is so significant in an article of this length, but I have updated the description. Hal Jespersen (talk) 18:47, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  An Error Concerning John Pelham 

message: He was the one who helped deal the majority of confederate casualties at Fredericksburg, and personally I've never heard of what Hooker did at Fredericksburg.--75.177.176.20 (talk) 14:49, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not know why you are referring to Hooker, but the commanders in the information box list only the army commanders, not selected subordinates. Hal Jespersen (talk) 16:49, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Oh, sorry, I thought you were referring to the list of commanders in the information box. The commanders in the picture gallery are the "grand division" commanders. They are there because of their positions, not value judgments about their contributions to the battle. More accurately titling the gallery "Army and Grand Division commanders" is a bit too lengthy. Hal Jespersen (talk) 17:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why isn't Meade listed as a key commander? 

message: The article states that the Irish Brigade lost over 50% of it's fighting force in the battle. I personally feel that over 50% is a very loose term, cause, as stated in the Irish Brigade Article: Battle of Fredericksburg where its fighting force was reduced from over 1600 to 256--Red Wiki 19:55, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have updated this article to include specific casualties, based on Meagher's returns in the OR (Gooolrick secondary source). The editors of the Irish Brigade article should reconsider (or at least cite their assertion). The only other reference I found to their brigade strength during this period referred to a very small number -- it might have been 256 -- at the end of February, but the Union Army suffered a significant number of desertions after Fredericksburg, and this might be a significant factor for this brigade. Hal Jespersen (talk) 16:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish Brigade Casualties are wrong 

message: I see there is a dispute about the added paragraph:
: Despite winning in the most overwhelming tactical sense, however, the Battle of Fredericksburg proved to be a hollow victory for the Confederates. The limitless resources of the North soon rectified Burnside's losses in manpower and materiel. Lee, on the other hand, found it difficult to replenish either missing soldiers or needed supplies. The Battle of Fredericksburg, although profoundly discouraging to Union soldiers and the Northern populace, made no decisive impact on the war. Instead, it merely postponed the next "On to Richmond" campaign until the spring.
This opinion is actually correct, but there are two problems with it in this article. First, a lament regarding a Confederate victory that turned out to be hollow because they eventually lost the war could actually be included in many of the battle articles about Lee, so it is not very valuable in this one. Second, although this article is not yet fully cited, this paragraph is obviously an opinion and should be accompanied by citations from secondary sources. Hal Jespersen (talk) 01:15, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: My rationale for questioning inclusion, exactly. Also, I think we can do better than copying verbatim the NPS text. Sswonk (talk) 01:19, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

text: All right, if that's the case then why don't one of you two write something similar to it. Since you happen to be "experts" in this field and always criticize whatever the I write, this seems to be a perfect solution.Red Wiki 23:01, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hollow victory? 

message: Contained within the section "Aftermath" is a paragraph repeating the legend of "the Angel of Marye's Heights". While the other paragraphs in the section report on historical information following the battle, the Richard Rowland Kirkland paragraph only repeats the legend of a battlefield deed. The entry should be removed because it adds no verifiable useful information.Norwigger (talk) 15:24, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The paragraph carries a citation from Frank O'Reilly's definitive campaign study. If you have other citations indicating that this was merely a legend and not a fact, please provide them. Hal Jespersen (talk) 16:31, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The details aren't compatible with the contemporary accounts and seem to be heavily embellished, though nobody actually seems to doubt Kirkland's personal heroism. Richard Keatinge (talk) 11:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Richard Rowland Kirkland 

message: I notice that in one of the diagrams (specifically []), the year is wrong. Its legend says "Battle of Fredericksburg, Overview: 13 December 1863" when it means to say 1862.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.67.26.222 (talk) 22:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoops! Fixed. Thanks for catching. Hal Jespersen (talk) 23:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the quick fix! Hank314 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 02:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date on one diagram is off by a year 

message: I have restored the deleted section "In popular media". I believe that the reference to WP:MILPOP was intended, as it states, to primarily suppress the trivial inclusion of weapon and equipment references. In contrast, many of the American Civil War articles include references to major motion pictures that depict applicable battles or generals, and these references are rarely abused as they apparently have been in other military history articles. Hal Jespersen (talk) 17:06, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  popular media 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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