Talk:Justin Vivian Bond

message: The above was deleted but I think may add to this article.  -- Banjeboi 09:46, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the quoted text from your comment due to copyright concerns; I'm sorry to be so forward, but, you know, copyright means fun legal issues to dance around. The editor who added it originally referred to it as Bond's "official bio", which implies copyright infringement. Unless we can find the copyright holder and get permission to host it here, we can't have it even on the talk page, if I understand policy correctly. And without knowing the actual source, we can't use it as a reference. So I guess the thing to do would be to track down the source of that text. --Gimme danger (talk) 21:08, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be more useful if you simply stated removed per COPYVIO. Not seeing the original text anywhere in particular I did find a copy at  which likely would have also been lifted from somewhere. I'm also not sure if COPYVIO means the text can't be posted to the talkpage for reworking. In any case my point is that there was good content there and leads to sourcing which we can use and that should be encouraged.  -- Banjeboi 03:13, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologize for my verbosity; I felt bad editing your message and wanted to explain myself. I definitely agree that, if backed up, the material would be good content. --Gimme danger (talk) 03:44, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No prob, good faith yada yada yada kumbaya. Lol!  -- Banjeboi 11:47, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  deleted 

message: Here an "official bio" was added but it has since been removed. Decent content to work with that may, in turn lead to sourcing.  -- Banjeboi 17:54, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Official bio" 

message: Who considers Justin Bond to belong to the third gender? Does Justin? Or someone else? The reference to the third gender isn't in the article cited, as far as I can see. Totorotroll (talk) 20:28, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Justin doesn't consider vself male or female (this is evident from v's website, and has been stated very clearly on v's website); surely, the only other option that is available is third gender, which is a category that covers those who don't see themselves as being either male/female ? By simply having the term "transgendered", readers might imply that Bond sees vself as female, which is certainly not true. (Midnightblueowl (talk) 01:14, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Though it should be researched, it appears that the subject of the article is biologically male, and so the convention should be followed to refer to him as such. New language that is proposed and advanced by individual subjects should not be adopted in encyclopedic writing—apart from the factual reporting that a form of novel self-referencing is how the individual refers to themselves in their own writing, and prefers to be described. See also next comment.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.175.245.235 (talk) 13:17, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: To refer to a transgendered person with the pronouns connected to their sexual biology is deemed hugely offensive to transpeople (and their allies). With language like that, you're probably going to get yourself in some hot water for transphobia there, unregistered user... (just a friendly warning). Midnightblueowl (talk) 23:28, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "third gender" 

message: Because the subject of the article refers to himself in a particular way does not justify encyclopedic description removing gender-specific language and substituting it with unique, subject-specific "v" language (inserting "v" for "he", "vs" for "his", etc.).
If another transgender takes on a stage name of "Adolphus" and starts using newly constructed language to refer to herself, will we then also insert "a" for "she" and "ar" for "her", etc.?  This development is simply nonsense as editorial practice, and the text should be standardized.
Use of "vs", which has as an independent meaning, confuses reading, just as any number of other confusions might be imagined if subject-defined, subject-specific prose is generally adopted ("a" for "she", above hypothetical.).
The following sample of the opening of the article gives the types of prose that requires standardization with respect to English and encyclopedic description:
Opening
     "It was here that v met"   [P2]
     "starring in ... Shortbus (2006) as vself"   [P2]
     "before releasing vs first EP, Pink Slip"   [P2]
     "Bond self describes vs voice as being"
Biography / Early life: 1963-1988  
     "v first became aware that v was unlike"   [P1]
     "causing some concern from vs teachers"   [P1]
Etc.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.175.245.235 (talk) 13:17, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: See MOS:IDENTITY#Identity on this issue. Midnightblueowl (talk) 23:39, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  The subject is currently being discussed at talk:MOS#Other_pronouns. – Smyth\talk 10:41, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  use of nonstandard language confuses, is unjustified as general encyclopedic language 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: From reading this talk section, it is clear that pronoun use for Bond has been brought up time and time again, but no real agreement has been made.  From looking at Bond's website, it appears that they use v/vself pronouns and singular they/them/theirs pronouns.  I believe that this article could be rewritten to use they/them/theirs pronouns in accordance with MOS:Identity.  I also think that quotations could be rewritten or brackets could be included in ALL quotations to affirm Bond's gender identity instead of one measly sic at the beginning of the article.  This also follows MOS:Gender neutral langage.  From what I understand, talk:MOS#Other_pronouns did not reach a decision on neopronouns, however, singular 'they' seems to be deemed acceptable for use on Wikipedia.  Similar measures have been put in place on articles like Elliot Page, Alice Oseman, and Ian Alexander who all use two sets of pronouns, but only one is used for the article for simplicity.  Ian Alexander's page uses exclusively they/them/theirs pronouns, and Elliot Page's page has quotations constructed in a way to affirm his gender identity.  Let me know what you think because I want to get this done as soon as possible so that we can eliminate the parts of this article that do not affirm Bond's gender identity. Cedar Tree 03:46, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronoun Usage 

message: I recently edited this page to include gender neutral language regarding Bond.  It was almost immediately reverted and I was told to take my proposed edit to the talk page.  So I'm trying again.  The reason for the revertion was that the first quote in the article used the "his" pronoun and I used square brackets to change "his" to "their".  This is the correct way to structure quotes when dealing with transgender people according to MOS:GENDERID.  I would like to edit to article to use gender-neutral they/them pronouns and language because neopronouns are a point of contention on Wikipedia, but gender-neutral language has precedence. (MOS:Gender neutral language) Cedar Tree 07:29, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I've restored your edit. If Laurier, FMSky, or Adakiko feel that this article should depart from GENDERID's guidance on refactoring quotes and non-notable deadnames, that's their burden to explain, not yours. I find it shocking that three experienced users have edit-warred against a provision of MoS with broad community approval without giving any reason for doing so.@FMSky, this edit, in particular, is borderline sanctionable.  -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 07:51, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. My restoration was based on the matter of refactoring quotes and removing a non-notable deadname. The other aspect of the edit, using they/them pronouns over "Bond", I have no strong opinion on.  -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 07:56, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I screwed up. I saw the change to "Don't change; this is a quote.", and reverted. My apology. Adakiko (talk) 08:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought I had left this comment on Tamzin's talk page and it disappeared so I left it again... Adakiko (talk) 08:32, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

text: Is it my burden to explain why this page should be respectful about gender and gender-neutral language etc.? Why? I only did one edit on this page, this one, which was a revert of a change where an editor removed " ". I probably didn't check when that was added, although I did see in the history it was removed and put back again several times. Maybe it *should* be removed, I won't interfere. By the way: I'm all for gender-neutral language, neopronouns, removing of deadnames, and respect in general for everyone including non-binary and trans people. If 'this is a quote' is not enough reason to preserve it, and if this is a guideline called 'GENDERID' (which I don't have time enough right now to read, but I will soon) I think we should remove that 'Don't change...' part. Laurier (talk) 08:08, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, hi Adakiko! I hadn't read your message when I typed mine! I think mine is exactly the same as yours, but yours is much more concise and to the point! :-) Laurier (talk) 08:09, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotations