Talk:Oliver Lee (New Mexico gunfighter)

message: Since Lee was never convicted of murder, I don't think he can be properly referred to as a murderer. He was an alleged murderer. That goes as well for other allegations of crimes unless he was convicted of those offenses.  Lee's 20th century service in the both houses of the state legislature is not mentioned. Walter Siegmund (talk) 15:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Murder allegation 

message: As I said previously, there were no bodies and no witnesses.  The supposed tracks that led to NEAR Lee's ranch were in dispute even at the time.  Some trackers said they went to NEAR Lee's ranch and some said they did not.  They never even traced the tracks to a particular horse, much less to a particular house or a particular person riding that horse.  Let's remember that Lee's ranch was pretty big so any horses tracks that were found in the Tularosa Basin probably came somewhere near Lee's ranch.  Like I said a Grand Jury today would not touch this case.  If anyone knows of more evidence then please let us know. TD
Well, there's no smoking gun piece of evidence. What there is is an abundance of circumstantial evidence that all leads to the same conclusion. I'm not going to take the time or space here to go into it all. I'm assuming you've read read some of what has been published on the case to come to your conclusion, but I will try to point out some of the evidence against Oliver Lee (and a little against William McNew and James Gililland, who stand with Lee in the theory presented). First, regarding the tracks of the suspects. After the tracks split, a group followed one set of tracks that a large majority of the group thought led to Lee's Wildy Well ranch, but unfortunately, the tracks were destroyed by a herd of Lee cattle (nice coincidence) so we will never know for sure. The second set of tracks, followed by Carl Clausen and Luis Herrera, led them DIRECTLY TO Lee's Wildy Well ranch. Search party member Carl Clausen later testified that the tracks of one of the horses matched Lee's horse (Thomas Branigan also testified to the tracks matching that of Lee's horse). Branigan later matched a set of footprints at the campsite to Bill McNew. Jack Maxwell testified to Lee, McNew, and James Gililland not being at his ranch at the time of the disappearance, but returning later on worn out horses.  There were other witness who claimed to have seen the suspects with the bodies, but did not come forward earlier for fear of being prosecuted for the crime they were committing at the time, stealing cattle. Unfortunately, presumably the fear got to them again, as they were no shows for trial. James Gililland made statements to a number of people incriminating himself, McNew, and Lee. This is just a summary of some of the key evidence. More detailed evidence, motive, etc., is readily available in the published accounts of the case. comment added by Shootseven  —Preceding comment was added at 21:56, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name the evidence. 

message: So if someone today makes an allegation but does not show up for trial then we are to believe what we heard they said??  This goes doubly true for things said many generations ago?  Who were the people who said that they saw the bodies?  Why did they not go to trial.  Lee and his men were in the minority party back then.  If someone had evidence I think they would show up to trial even if Lee was such a bad guy given that there were many more epowerful people against him than for him.  
But that cannot even be debated as there is absolutely no evidence of Lee being involved in this murder.  He was never even charged with the father's murder!  It would be like a hundred years from now us talking about the Lewinsky scandal or Scooter Liiby's involvement with Valery Plaim.  We can only go by the evidence and the results of the trial.  We have to go by the decisions of the jury at the time.  They had much more evidence and understanding of the case then we ever will.  i.e. NOT GUILTY!  TD—Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.42.121.130 (talk) 06:08, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The standard for inclusion in articles is whether content can be verified from published reliable sources. A jury verdict would likely be considered a reliable source, but published studies by historians, e.g., Sonnichsen, and journalists may often qualify as well. When facts are disputed, it is often best to discuss the opposing points of view and the evidence for them in accordance with WP:NPOV. Please review WP:RS and WP:V for more information. Also, you can sign your comments with four tildes, "~~~~". Best wishes, Walter Siegmund (talk) 01:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And the evidence I've mentioned here can all be verified in published sources.  Every published source mentioned is in the article and footnotes, regardless of each author's conclusion, mentions some of this evidence against Lee.  Shootseven (talk) 21:13, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please log into your account and end your comments with ~~~~. If you add footnotes to the article, the specific source of each statement will be made clear. Thanks. Walter Siegmund (talk) 15:54, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

text: When reliable sources disagree, we include all viewpoints and avoid giving undue weight to any particular point of view. --Walter Siegmund (talk) 01:10, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name the Evidence 2 

message: Substituted at 01:48, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: The article mentions Lee's association with Albert Fall, later famous for taking bribes during the Teapot Dome scandal. But the article then says that this friendship "put him on the side of the Democrats"--apparently in reference to his antipathy toward Fountain, who was also a Republican. The writer may have assumed that since Fountain was Republican, that Lee and Albert were Democrats, which is not true.
Before offering a correction, I am hoping to hear from experts in the period. Perhaps I misinterpreted, but it seems like a mistake to me. 97.101.87.125 (talk) 13:30, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Political Affiliation