Talk:Falun Gong/Archive 11

message: We're still trying to finalize wording on the three paragraphs of the intro. I'm linking to the relevant parts of this talk page - please add your comments there. Let's get this done folks. CovenantD 18:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Back to the intro 

message: On July 20, 1999 the People's republic of China began a Nation-wide Supression of Falun Gong. This has been considered a major Human-rights violation world-over.
Dilip rajeev 19:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, we don't know the CCP's true intentions for the suppression. I think it's actually much more complicated than that. So we should say something like "the Chinese government claims...". So unless this change is made I don't support. Mcconn 18:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dilip's suggestion

message: I was just about to make this change in the main page since nobody has responded to mine and Fnhddzs' posts, but I changed my mind and decided it to post it here first. If no one responds after a few hours then I'll consider it ok and put it into the main page.
----
:Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999'. The government claims that it initiated the suppression in reponse to Falun Gong's alleged illegal activities.' Falun Gong came to the attention of the Chinese government when 10,000 practitioners protested peaceful at Zhongnanhai the compound of Chinese top leaders on April 25, 1999. 
----
What do you think? (actually do we have source that verifies this claim?)Mcconn 18:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mcconn's suggestion

message: :*There is no consensus in adding "alleged" to this paragraph but I am not going to take it out yet.  I propose using the following to replace the existing version.  Finishing this paragraph by mentioning the group’s popularity introduces the next paragraph.  
----
Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999.  The Chinese government claims to have banned the group for its illegal activities.   The Falun Gong claims the ban a result of president Jiang Zemin’s personal jealousy of the group’s popularity.  
----
:*--Samuel Luo 18:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We should be able to accept Samuel's new wording since it simply reports both POV's and even provides links for people to get more information.  We don't need any more than this in the introduction, but can introduce much more in the crack-down section. (By the way, I don't think we ever agreed to the change in title for that page from Crackdown to Persecution.)  --Tomananda 22:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We didn't. In fact, I believe we were at the point where several people felt it was inherently POV. (I've been waiting for somebody to bring it up...) CovenantD 22:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: OK, but can people at least to agree to one editing principle, which is that when there seems to be irreconcilable differences of opinion on how to report something, that we should try to agree to a "two sentence" strategy such as shown above?  One sentence would succintly report one position (with a link) and the other would report the counter position (also with a link.)  Unless I am missing something here, that approach should work well.  If we agree to the approach in general, then we just need to agree if the wording for each sentence is reasonable and verifiable, such as Samuel has suggested above.  --Tomananda 01:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Hmm. Samuel's new wording is good to me except the use of "illegal activites". Definitely not acceptable on that. Fnhddzs 05:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

text: * Hmm, Fnhddzs how about "peaceful activities" would that satisfy you?  Please don't miss the magic word "claims." --Samuel Luo 06:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The Chinese government claims to have banned the group for its illegal activities Research Society of Falun Dafa for not been registered according to law, advocating superstition and spreading fallacies, hoodwinking people, inciting and creating disturbances, and jeopardizing social stability.
 - CovenantD 14:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999.  The Chinese government claims to have banned the group for its illegal activities.   The Falun Gong claims the ban a result of president Jiang Zemin’s personal jealousy of the group’s popularity.
I support this version.  It introduces the ban and and includes claims from both sides. --Samuel Luo 06:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Samuel's suggestion

message: Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999, which has been considered a major Human-Rights violation world-over. Concerns were triggered when 10,000 practitioners appealed peacefully close to Zhongnanhai the compound of Chinese top leaders on April 25, 1999. 
Hi, Folks: Please look at this version. There is no consensus on the current version. It cannot stay there forever. Can we set a deadline? Fnhddzs 06:08, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm in favor of a deadline. I'd say no more than 5 days, so by midnight (UTC) Wednesday? CovenantD 13:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  :-D .. i agree to the deadline too..
*Support. I agree to the version above but I believe that mentioning that this has been considered a major Human-Rights violation, world-over is quite central to the article. I am not sure how to phrase the sentence.Dilip rajeev 18:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dilip's 2nd suggestion

message: It looks like everybody agrees on the opening line - "Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999." That's a good begining. It seems the way to go now is to find out what we don't want.
We have three versions to consider. Each of them contain something the others don't. So let's ask this question; is there anything in any of those versions that I don't want in there? Cause what I'm thinking is, if nobody has strong feelings about keeping something out we could just put it all in. There's nothing that seems to contradict, it just emphasizes different aspects. I want to hear from each of you. CovenantD 06:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Samuel's version plus a sentence or slight mentioning of the 4.25 incident (Mconn's or Dilip's)  would be fine. I see no reasoning in using "persecution" to justify the omitting of "alleged illegal". The purpose of the article is to lay out all the facts. --Yenchin 13:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: As well as the facts of China claiming FLG to be illegal. What's the relevance between these two? Appeal to pity fallacy. --Yenchin 20:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fnhddzs only said "facts of persecution cannot be ommited."  Dilip rajeev 18:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The question is what NOT to include. Let's answer that first then address each one in turn otherwise we'll get bogged down. To make it easier, I'm going to reproduce the differences here. CovenantD 19:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: As you can see, Mcconn and Samuel's are almost identical. Dilip wants it mentioned that it's considered a human rights violation. Is this statement in dispute? CovenantD 19:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Again, Mcconn and Dilip's versions are almost identical. Samuel wants it mentioned that jealousy may be a factor. Is any of this disputed? CovenantD 19:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: As soon as we get enough people to give their comments on the differences. You haven't yet. CovenantD 06:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

text: ok. Fnhddzs 17:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pulling it all together

message: I am concerned about the order in which the subtitles appear. The article being on Falun Gong, the Persecution of Falun Gong adn othe section must appear above the "criticism" section. Especially when the persecution is recieving so much attention world-wide.
Dilip rajeev 14:14, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been requested that we finish up the 2nd paragraph of the intro before we look at structure. (In principle, I agree that Criticism should appear further down and be summarized better {Scientology}). CovenantD 19:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Order of the subtitles 

message: Both Samuel and Fnhddzs have now reverted at least 4 times each. I'm requesting that an admin give both of them a short block. CovenantD 20:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * Fnhddzs’s material was rejected by Tomanada, Firestar, ConventD and I today, yet he continues to insert his material.  I reverted him about 4 times but he reverted us at least 7 times.  If we are serious about not allowing anyone adding material without a consensus then I am simply trying to enforce this understanding and therefore should not receive the same treatment as Fnhddzs.   --Samuel Luo 20:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Niether one of you are talking about it except in the edit summaries as you war back and forth. CovenantD 20:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: 24 hours each. All of those involved should already have been aware that 3RR is independent of who's right and who's wrong. -- Миборовский 20:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *Convent did the right thing to move that material to history of Falun Gong.  Dilip as a respect for others you should refrain from reintroducing that material.  --Yueyuen 21:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  3RR violations 

message: The word word alleged has been deleted MANY times now. Despite discussing this on talk page REPEATEDLY a user has been deleting it repeatedly. If this behaviour continues the user should be banned.
Dilip rajeev 21:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *There is a discussion about this paragraph above.  You might not want to insert “allege” by ignoring this discussion.  --Kent8888 23:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There has been no consensus to include the word alleged. I think it should be in there, but we're not talking about it enough to justify including it at this point. CovenantD 18:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  THE WORD ALLEGED  SHOULD NOT BE DELETED AND THE PERSON WHO DELETES IT AGAIN SHOULD BE BANNED 

message: I would like to have a majority consensus on something. The article is a terrible mess. No user who sees the page is going to take it seriously. Its time the page is cleaned up.
*No adding/deleting material to the article till the present material is cleaned up though discussion.
* Set a deadline of five days to reach consensus on summaries for the sub-pages we have now.
* Decide if the material on the "Origins" section, pulled from a biography is that relevant to an article on Falun Gong. 
Dilip rajeev 21:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Continuing with edits 

message: That depends on what you mean by "take it seriously". I hope you don't mean "advertise Falungong" by that statement. Discussion is going on, and people are working to keep the article neutral. You are going to have be more specific about what you want. --Fire Star 火星 04:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote / Opinion

message: I have never seen any falun gong website present the biography as the "origin"  of Falun Gong.  Master Li Hongzhi has talked about the origin of Falun Gong in the book Falun Gong. Thats the primary source. A biography of Albert Einstein wouldnt be discussed under the relativity article.
Dilip rajeev 21:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are we talking about the origins of Falung Gong or Falun Gong itself here? --Yenchin 14:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Omido, again, a biography need not be in current publication or provided by the topic of discussion to be considered as source material. That is like saying that a movie review could not be included in an article about the movie. Your reason for excluding it is not sufficient. CovenantD 15:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discuss biography here 

message: Finally after careful checking, I found what I mainly disagreed are the new edits in the persecution section summary. I suggest putting the new edits in the history article. Since the new edits tried to describe many details before the persecution. Fnhddzs 05:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fnhddzs, the Persecution summary that I placed is nothing more than a paraphrase of the one of the paragraphs of the intro to the Persecution article. CovenantD 13:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: All right. Leave it for now. I will look at it further. Fnhddzs 21:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the Persecution section 

message: With no one objecting and the passing of deadline, I updated this paragraph.  You can still change it if you don't like it, just don't beat me up or post nasty messages on my talk page. :-)  --Kent8888 06:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  2nd paragraph of intro is updated 

message: what happened with talk page? Who are established users? I could not type in sections. Fnhddzs 06:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're going to add citations, please follow the new format that is being used - it adds to proper line to the References section at the bottom. I'll correct the two new ones you've added here, but you're responsible for the ones in the Criticism and controversies article. CovenantD 06:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

text: No, the text (which we all consensed to) refers to the Falun Gong website so I've restored the reference that you deleted. I'm really disappointed that you've aleady made changes to the only paragraph that everybody agreed on. CovenantD 06:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What do you mean by everybody? Fnhddzs 14:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

text:  CovenantD, ok, maybe I did not understand your question. Which reference you mean? When I saw it, it was in a bad shape. It said something like "Cite error 4; Invalid call; no input specified". So I added two links. Now I see you recovered the clearwisdom one. I am ok with that. Please do not misunderstand me. Thanks. Fnhddzs 14:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, that's a misunderstanding then. You caught it at a moment when I was formatting the references. This new citation style is a bit more difficult to master :-) Nevermind. CovenantD 15:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: good job on the new reference style. I need to pick it up. Fnhddzs 15:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This should help - Wikipedia:Footnotes CovenantD 15:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  talk page protected? 

message: Please leave some of the FLG claims in.  I can use them AGAINST THEM in the court case.  We are going to ask the wife to
levitate, see through walls, etc.  When my kid was little, he asked me how reindeer's fly.  Being the smart kid that he is,
I explained to him that the reindeer "farts" sooo much that he literally lifts off like a rocket.  This only worked until he was about 5.  I used the same explanation when his Mom told him
that she could levitate, but only in the bathroom.
As for citations, I am working on getting some from China.  I contacted the People's Daily for some information.
Where are the guidelines for "deadlines"?  I have never heard of it.
Cawleybot100 responding Cj cawley 10:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  FLG never claims every practitioner can fly or see through walls. Supernormal abilities are mostly locked and NOT pursued. Fnhddzs 15:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I've decided that it's a waste of my time to respond to bots. Let me know when a real person shows up and maybe I'll answer his or her questions. CovenantD 15:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How did this person get let into our semi-protected talk page? I thought only established editors can edit this page. Cawley seems to be providing only vandalism and distractions. Mcconn 18:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Established users" mean accounts more than 4 days (or is it one week) old. It is to protect the page from vandals like the pro-FLG guy. -- Миборовский 18:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh, so you would allow anti-FLG guy? You seem not impartial. Fnhddzs 21:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I don't think Mirobrovsky would allow anybody who's being abusive and disruptive the way pro-FLG Vandal is. I don't know if you've seen it, but s/he hits user pages, this talk page and personal talk pages of people who are not FLG practitioners with really nasty personal attacks. Never any practitioners, but even neutral people like me are subject to hir venom. CovenantD 13:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Cj cawley 

message: (Since a new editor doesn't quite get it, I thought I'd provide an example for them to use)
:Proposed text-
The Chinese government has published several books providing detailed information on the hundreds of people who died directly or indirectly as a result of following the Falun Gong "principles".  Assuming that both sides are true, then
falun Gong has caused around 3,000 deaths.
China Anti-Cult Association Condemns Falun Gong's Inhumanity 
Falun Gong Fanatic Murders Uncle
Falun Gong Devastates Believers' Lives: Spanish Media
Falun Gong Crime Widely Condemned 
Falun Gong Cult Outlawed
Comments
Well, besides the formatting problems, there's a severe lack of information here. Simply providing a list of article titles and links is insufficient. Also, all of these links are to the same source. If there's evidence to support this, I'd like to see more than one source used. "People's Daily" is not exactly known for quality reporting. CovenantD 14:06, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: References should be available for review without having to disclose personal information to you. If it isn't then it doesn't meet the qualifications for sources. CovenantD 17:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Your sources do not support your claim of 3000. Fnhddzs 00:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What part of 3rd party source do you not understand? Simply give us the name of the book, journal, newspaper, or whatever it is and let us find it for ourselves. Why do you keep resisting this? CovenantD 01:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Then suggest that the name of the section be changed. Do not simply blank information you disagree with. That is not consensus and it will be reverted every time. CovenantD 01:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: How to add a new section

message: I notice that Fnhddzs has been blocked for violating 3RR and since then he revered twice with his Ip address and again with a new use name.  Can someone block his Ip address? --Yueyuen 05:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been VERY tolerant with my block. Fnhddzs has been warned and blocked before for 3RR. This time, I warned him no less than 2 times not to use an anon IP address to make further reverts. He did so anyway. Omido, please take your "be compassionate and forgiving" to the vandal that was vandalising this page and our user pages. -- Миборовский 23:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  ok. Miborovsky. Since your words were posted days ago at the beginning of the confusion or when you were angry or whatever. It is ok. Please see my talk page. I could not reply here when I was blocked. I won't address this more here. All right, let it pass and go back to work. Thanks. Fnhddzs 00:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fnhddzs has been blocked for violating 3RR again 

message: Right now, the subsection is like this:
* 5 Criticism and Controversies
* 5.1 Differences between Falun Gong, Buddhism, Qigong and other beliefs
* 5.2 Li as a savior or supernatural entity
* 5.3 Fa-rectification: Li’s version of the apocalypse?
* 5.4 Debatable significance of Falun Gong awards and recognitions
* 5.5 Falun Gong and sexual orientation
I think, it should be just "Criticism and Controversies". In my opinion, it is taking up too much space.
/Omido 11:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the model Covenant recommended and the one I plan to develop is the Scientology article which has a rather long summary of Crititicism and controversies, with four different sub-sections!  Compared to the Scientology main page, the Falun Gong main page is absolutely enemic.  There is not a problem of space here, and I suspect the only reason Omido says the subsection links should not appear on the main page is to obscure them. There are also many short summaries of pro-Falun Gong articles with links appearing on the main page, and I don't hear anyone suggesting they be eliminated to "save space."   As suggested by Covenant, my plan is to write a whole new intoduction for the Criticism page which will take me quite a few days, as I will introduce some new material.  After that is done, I will propose a re-ordering and some consolidation of the Criticism articles in keeping with the new inrotroduction.  The goal is wind up with a main page edit that is readable, similar to what we see in Scientology.  It needs to be pointed out that the text on the main page of Scientology is not just a repeat of the lead paragraphs of the from the auxialiary articles, but rather independent material.  If we follow this approach throughout the Falun Gong article, that means the pro-Falun Gong editors will need to work on writing new edits for the main page summaries as well.   Agreed?  --Tomananda 21:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You also see that in the Scientology model, the Teachings section has some subheadings. I think that's appropriate and balanced. And yes, I wholeheartedly agree that each summary needs to be just that, a summary of what's in the daughter article and not just a repeat of the first paragraph. I tried to do something like that with History and Timeline (it's still a work in progress). I was planning on introducing the idea section by section. :-) CovenantD 22:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

text: We're not comparing Falun Gong and Scietology, we're comparing the articles - structure, layout, summaries, subsections and daughter articles. Tomananda, I understand your suspicions but since I share Omido's views about the layout (and raised them with you) I think you might be off base here. CovenantD 14:20, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing sub-sections in the main page 

message: Simply put, they need to be cleaned up. I've started but it needs the attention of people who have added the links. Many of them need to be moved to daughter articles (I've isolated many that should go into Persecution), some of them need to have better descriptions, and some of them need to go away. Please read this style guide for what should and should not be done with them. CovenantD 14:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: Fnhddzs was blocked yesterday, yet he reverted again by using a public computer.    But more importantly he said he has asked friends (other practitioners) to help, presumably, with his reverts.  This is what he said: “I had called for friends to join and they came for help. Hehe. It seems it is kind of late but that is what happened.”   To avoid a major revert war, I suggest that the article be protected now.  Edits can be made after discussion here.    
I believe those nasty emails were from Fnhddzs using that public computer.   --Samuel Luo 07:15, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The page is already semi-protected. No new editors will be able to make changes for the first four days they are registered. CovenantD 14:07, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Samuel. Why you worry so much? Hehe. But I promise without my friends' help, I will also do well. What nasty emails you said? You confuse me again. Please give references instead of doing personal attacks here. Fnhddzs 00:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  protect the page 

message: Falun Gong (Traditional Chinese: 法輪功; Simplified Chinese: 法轮功; Pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") is also known as Falun Dafa (Traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; Simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; Pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi in 1992. Central to Falun Gong are the teachings of "Truthfulness, Compassion and Forbearance" and five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation).) The system has been growing in popularity world-over with the teachings translated to over 40 languages and practitioners present in over 80 countries.
Dilip rajeev 19:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dilip's Suggestion

message: ::Falun Gong (Traditional Chinese: 法輪功; Simplified Chinese: 法轮功; Pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; Gwoyeu Romatzyh: Faaluen Gong; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law"), also known as Falun Dafa (Traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; Simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; Pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law"), is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi in 1992. Central to Falun Gong are five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation) and a set of spiritual teachings which lay emphasis on moral improvement according to the principles of Truth, Compassion and Forbearance. Falun Gong is practiced in approximately 80 countries and the teachings have been translated into over 40 languages. Mcconn 18:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with the above suggested by Mcconn. Hi, other editors, please express your opinions on the first paragraph. Thanks. Fnhddzs 02:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: AgreeDilip rajeev 18:02, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree Omido 14:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Reject. There should be a slight mention of the difference between the "Dafa" and "Gong" or else some of the Li quotes don't make sense. I would also suggest "Falun Gong is practiced..." changed into "Falun Gong has practitioners..." --Yenchin 21:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What difference? Please give the link. As the matter and mind are one thing, the "Dafa" and "Gong" are one thing. Fnhddzs 21:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For starters, take a look at Tomamanda's quote. How could a "Gong" be a "law"? As long as Li keeps on using "Fa" for his reference to some cosmic law then there is a distinction. --Yenchin 21:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mcconn's suggestion

message: ----
Falun Gong (Traditional Chinese: 法輪功; Simplified Chinese: 法轮功; Pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; Gwoyeu Romatzyh: Faaluen Gong; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") is also known as Falun Dafa (Traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; Simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; Pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi in 1992. Falun Gong refers to five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation).) Falun Dafa refers to a set of religious dogma which teaches that Li's Dafa is currently judging mankind and that corrupt people will be weeded out in a process called "Fa-rectification."   Falun Dafa also includes the idea that Li and his Dafa provide the only means for salvation during our current period of the "last havoc."
----
Notice that this paragraph avoids the trap of words like central or core teachings, yet quickly summarizes the major points.     --Tomananda 21:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For record: And solely provided from Li Hongzhi (an authoritative figure). It is more than clear that the word can be applied. My choice maintains as well as my point that it is NPOV. --Yenchin 08:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I think definition (c) rules out the word 'dogma' becuase it puts forth a judgment- without adequate grounds. CovenantD 20:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: tomananda's suggestion

message: ... practitioners are told they will become gods. Every Falun Gong practitioner knows and accepts these teachings.  They must be given weight in Wikipedia 
In comments above, some practitioners fail to acknowledge the core teaching of Li Hongzhi. Although Master tells his disciples not to talk about his teachings "at the higher level" to "ordinary people,"  Wikipedia must report these teachings in it's introduction. If a
practitioner/editor is unable to honestly report what Falun Gong teaches, then it will be up to the non-practitoner editors to provide these edits. 
To conflate the "Dafa" with Falun Gong exercies would be a gross mis-representation of Falun Gong beliefs.  Li Hongzhi uses the words "Dafa"  and "Fa-rectification" repeatedly in his speeches and makes protecting and standing up for his Dafa the number one requirement of a Dafa disciple. All practitioners must obey the Master in this regard if they wish to be considered practitioners.  It is NOT about the exercises, it is about the Dafa...which is the most important and central teaching. 
Here are a few Li quotes to add some sources to what I have said:
*So when you clarify the truth you absolutely must not speak at too high of a level. Right now when you clarify the truth you only need to talk about the persecution of Dafa disciples, how the evil party has been violating the human rights and the freedom of belief of the Chinese people, how historically the evil party has persecuted the Chinese people and the people of the countries belonging to the wicked Communist bloc, and how it is persecuting Dafa disciples today in the same way. And that's enough. As for high-level cultivation and gods, you shouldn't talk about those things. "Teaching the Fa in San Francisco," 2005 (November 5, 2005)*http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2005/12/4/67552.html
*Why do I tell you to study, read, and memorize Zhuan Falun?   It is to guide your cultivation practice! As to those who only do the exercises but do not study the Fa, they are not disciples of Dafa whatsoever. “What is Cultivation Practice?”   (September 6, 1996)  Essentials for Further Advancement,  English Version
*Most students have, in various ways, stepped forward to validate Dafa . . .On the other hand, those who haven’t stepped forward, have hidden themselves, and have sided in their understanding with the evil beings – how could they still be Dafa disciples? . . . For example, some students were arrested and imprisoned.  When they couldn’t endure the severe torture, they wrote repentance statements. . .. .But this is unacceptable. "Teaching the Fa at the Great Lakes Fa Confernece in North America ' (Ann Arbor, December 9, 2000). p. 3.
*The purpose of spreading Dafa far and wide is to rectify the Fa in the cosmos, and, at the same time, to have Dafa’s disciples in the human world reach Consummation.  Dafa is also creating a new humankind, and will likewise bring to humankind a new culture.  Essentials for Further Advancement II,   item 12
*No matter how the evil persecutes, what awaits Dafa disciples is still Consummation, and what awaits the evil beings is nothing but eternally paying in Hell for all they have done to interfere with and persecute the Fa-rectification and Dafa disciples.   “Look at Things with Righteous Thoughts,”  Falun Gong Web Site,  March 8, 2002
*Dafa  (Great Law) has only one master, me, and Dafa Itself doesn’t have any “persons in charge.”  You’re just people in charge amidst this Fa-rectification form and counter-persecution form. . . .. Everyone is a cultivating disciple.  Make sure you keep these things in mind.  Fa-Lecture at the Conference in Florida, U.S.A., December 29, 2001,  p. 8.
*Dafa  is the Fa (Law) of the cosmos, and Dafa has created all beings in the cosmos.  “Using at Will”  (June 28, 2000 )  in Essentials for Further Advancement II,  item 12.
*I  am telling you now that Dafa belongs to me, Li Hongzhi.  It is taught to save you and spoken from my mouth.  “Awakening” (May 27, 1996)  in Essentials for Further Advancement I
Any summary of Falun Gong teaching which does not report these basic teachings will be dishonest.
--Tomananda 23:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, is it too long?  I can shorten it if you like.  --Tomananda 00:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL   That works :-) CovenantD 01:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

text: You have to be careful not to assign labels like "core teachings". We can report what Li Hongzhi says they are, or what notable critics say they are, but any attempt by a WP editor to define them on the basis of their personal beliefs is too close to original research. Also, that Li has ordered his followers to hide aspects of the teaching is pretty well established above: "you absolutely must not speak at too high of a level" etc., so the pronouncements of FLG followers aren't necessarily reliable as to what Li teaches or doesn't teach. Since Li has ordered his followers to obfuscate his teachings to the public, what we have to go on is mostly is reports of his lectures, and mentioning Li's gag order is an important way to indicate the relative trust our readers may place in the explanatory statements of FLG followers. --Fire Star 火星 14:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Omido: Li's words are clear, he tells his disciples not to talk about the theachings at too high a level and instead focus on his political agenda of exposing the evil CCP and destroying it over time.  That is Li's stated goal and he repeats that message over and over again in all his speeches.  But Wikipedia has a different standard.  While you might not want to do edits that talk about Li's Dafa judging all mankind and the Fa-rectification (because that is what Li orders), it's clear that this information must be reported in a simple, clear and consise way in the introduction to this article.  So again I say: if the practitioners are unwilling or unable to report this information, other editors will do it.  That's what is happening right now.--Tomananda 21:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Li's Dafa is judging all mankind and weeding out corrupt people, while...

message: ----
Falun Gong (Traditional Chinese: 法輪功; Simplified Chinese: 法轮功; Pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; Gwoyeu Romatzyh: Faaluen Gong; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") is also known as Falun Dafa (Traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; Simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; Pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi in 1992. Falun Gong refers to five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation).) Falun Dafa refers to a set of religious dogma which teaches that Li's Dafa is currently judging mankind and that corrupt people will be weeded out in a process called "Fa-rectification."   Falun Dafa also includes the idea that Li and his Dafa provide the only means for salvation during our current period of the "last havoc."
----
Notice that this paragraph avoids the trap of words like central or core teachings, yet quickly summarizes the major points.     --Tomananda 21:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely not true.  As Li says, practitioners can no longer expect to be "true practitiors" if all they do is individual cultivation.  Those are his words.  Now the requirment during this Fa-rectication period is for all practitiors to validate the Fa and expose the "evil"  CCP, working towards it's elimination by, among other things, getting millions of Communist party members to quit the party.  The Epoch Times...the paper Li's disciples founded to validate Li's teachings...actually publishes the results of this campaing.  It think the touted number of party members who have quite as a result of Li's campaign is now close to 10 million...isn't that correct?   --Tomananda 21:37, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

text: How can you claim that this is my point of view when all I am doing is reporting your Master's words. --Tomananda 21:37, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

text: He doesn't use the word "destroy"...but instead, says (through the Epoch Times and on Falun Gong websites) that the party eventually will be gone (or does he say eliminated..why don't you tell me what his word are for a change?) His goal is to destroy, in a political sense, the CCP. --Tomananda 21:37, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, Li has said that as well.  But if they gods are going to destroy the CCP, why do the practitioners have to devote themselves to "exposing the evil CCP" and lobbying western politicians...and illegally jamming the TV transmissions of the CCP through stations located in Taiwan.  Your refusal to speak honestly about Falun Gong's agenda is truly astounding.  --Tomananda 21:37, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

text: You have to be kidding me!   Zhuan Falun was written before the so-called persecution and so to use your logic everything that appears in the Wikipedia page about the persecution must be immediately deleted because it is not part of Zhuan Falun.  Li continually speaks of his diciples as "Fa-rectification Dafa disciples" and continually asks you to stand up for the Fa and expose the evil CCP....do you deny that?   It is you who is trying to conceal Master Li's teachings by making the absurd argument that only what he wrote before the ban of the Falun Gong can be used in Wikipedia.  What absolute nonsense!   I made a count of how many times Li used the word "Fa-rectification in a recent speech.  I think it came to 24 times, as compared to close to zero for the term xinxing.  If that isn't a clear indication of Li's prioritities (and by extension yours) what other measure do you propose to show what is central and what is not in Li's teachings?   --Tomananda 21:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tomananda's 2nd suggestion

message: Shall we set another deadline? Say, 5 p.m.  (UTC) on Sunday? I believe that gives us about 72 hours. CovenantD 16:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: At this point, I think Monday is even better. We've gotten sidetracked by Cj and whether Falun Gong and Falun Dafa are the same. CovenantD 14:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Of course. That's why I phrased it as a question at the very begining of this subsection. CovenantD 01:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Deadline for 1st paragraph

message: Can I have a small suggestion. I would like add "to the public" after introduced, if you folks do not object to that. Since this is more accurate. Falun Gong is an ancient cultivation school. Fnhddzs 01:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Beginning from 1984, Mr. Li devoted his whole body and mind to the adaptation work of Falun Buddha Law. The Law Wheels of the Buddha School, the Yin and Yang of the Tao School, and everything in the ten Directions, all find their reflections in Falun Buddha Law without exception. When Mr. Li set about creating Falun Buddha Law, all his masters came back. The superior space masters of the Buddha School, Tao School, Great Way School and some other schools all participated in the work. Every posture and movement of Falun Dafa were finally fixed after repeated deliberation, evolution, practice and identification under the guidance of his masters. Therefore, what Falun Dafa contains is more than what belongs to Mr. Li or a few cultivation schools. It has assembled all the mystical powers, which are the essence of the whole cosmos. Now, it has found its expression in Mr. Li alone. The design of Falun Dafa was basically finalized in 1989.    --Tomananda 04:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Our Falun Dafa is one of 84,000 cultivation ways in the Buddha’s School, which has never been made public during the historical period of this human civilization.  However, it was once widely used to provide salvation to mankind during a prehistoric period.  I am making it public again in this final period of the Last Havoc.   Therefore, it is extremely precious.  
I agree with you that here Li is claiming his Falun Dafa is ancient.  But as the biograhy I quoted stated, he adapted his Falun Dafa using the ancient material.  So if we are really going to strike a NPOV stance, we could report both interpretations and let the reader decide. But frankly I don't really object to adding the word "public" to the sentence as long as there is not any additional claims made as to its alleged "ancient" status.  --Tomananda 06:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Addition to 1st sentence

message: ----
Falun Gong 法輪功 (literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") is also known as Falun Dafa 法輪大法(literally "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi (surname is Li) in 1992. Falun Gong refers to five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation).) Falun Dafa refers to a set of religious teachings that emphasize on moral improvement and salvation. Falun Dafa is introduced by Li this way: “Our Falun Dafa is one of the eighty-four thousand cultivation ways in the Buddha School. During the historical period of this human civilization, it has never been made public. In a prehistoric period, however, it was once widely used to provide salvation to humankind. In this final period of Last Havoc, (the end time) I am making it public again. Therefore, it is extremely precious."
 
----
:*English speakers are not going to care about the difference between traditional and simplify Chinese, so I simplified the first sentence.  I’ve read the discussion and some of Li’s teachings; he does talk about salvation, Fa-rectification a lot therefore some mention of salvation is definitely needed.  I also agree with Fnhddzs that since Zhuan Falun is the group’s main text if we are going to quote Li, it should come from this book.     --Kent8888 21:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 24 hours? CovenantD 01:46, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fnhddzs:  So now a quote from your master in the book you wanted us to use, Zhuan Falun, is not ok because you object to the words period of the last havoc?  Those words appear in the authorized bible of Falun Gong and you still object to them?   You can't be serious. --Tomananda 04:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You know, I did not see that in () on that quotes.  Fnhddzs 05:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kent888's suggestion

message: Ok I just took out “religious.”   Fnhddzs, you are the only one who has been objecting to most of the new changes.  I have to ask you to provide a justification for excluding your master’s quote.  Here is my second suggestion:
 
----
Falun Gong 法輪功 (literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") is also known as Falun Dafa 法輪大法(literally "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi (surname is Li) in 1992. Falun Gong refers to five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation).) Falun Dafa is introduced by Li this way: “Our Falun Dafa is one of the eighty-four thousand cultivation ways in the Buddha School. During the historical period of this human civilization, it has never been made public. In a prehistoric period, however, it was once widely used to provide salvation to humankind. Falun Gong 法輪功 (literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") is also known as Falun Dafa 法輪大法(literally "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi (surname is Li) in 1992. Falun Gong refers to five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation).) Falun Dafa refers to a set of religious teachings that emphasize on moral improvement and salvation. Falun Dafa is introduced by Li this way: “Our Falun Dafa is one of the eighty-four thousand cultivation ways in the Buddha School. During the historical period of this human civilization, it has never been made public. In a prehistoric period, however, it was once widely used to provide salvation to humankind. In this final period of Last Havoc, (the end time) I am making it public again. Therefore, it is extremely precious."
 
. Therefore, it is extremely precious."
----
Support--Kent8888 02:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tommorrow is too rush. We need time for each editor to take a look. Fnhddzs 03:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Master Li did say that "the Dafa is judging all beings".   Can the Gong also judge all beings?
He also said "In this final period of the Last Havoc I am making it (the Dafa) public again."
Fnhddzs, you are engaging in apologetics here. In the end, this Wikipedia article will report the truth, no matter how many times you try to obscure that truth.  --Tomananda 05:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Assume good faith, Tomananda. I know it's not your first impulse, but look at it this way - If practitioners believe in this so much that it makes them blind to certain things, that is not working in bad faith.CovenantD 18:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kent8888's second suggestion

message: Although often used interchangably, literally Falun Gong refers to five sets of meditation exercises (four standing and one sitting), while Falun Dafa refers to a set of teachings found primarily in the books Falun Gong and Zhuan Falun that emphasize moral behaviour and salvation for mankind.
----
This acknowledges the interchangable use of the terms while still noting that there is a literal difference. It refers obliquely to the root of the teachings, the books, without trying to define in the intro what the core teachings are beyond morality and salvation. CovenantD 18:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, that's just the second sentence. I haven't gotten to the third yet. CovenantD 22:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Covenant's suggestion for the second sentence

message: :Falun Gong (Traditional Chinese: 法輪功; Simplified Chinese: 法轮功; Pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; Gwoyeu Romatzyh: Faaluen Gong; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law"), also known as Falun Dafa (Traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; Simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; Pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced to the public by Li Hongzhi in 1992.
All 3 four proposed versions include this as the first line. CovenantD 20:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No there is a typo. please delete the first "is" and add a comma. Fnhddzs 00:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ooops. Thank you. Done. CovenantD 00:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What is "Gwoyeu Romatzyh"? Why is it here? Is it the same as Tongyong Pinyin or something else? I seem to remember that it is a defunct romanisation used in Taiwan. If this is correct, then shouldn't be replaced by Tongyong Pinyin, or removed entirely? Would W-G actually be more useful here? --Sumple (Talk) 06:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What is agreed so far

message: Critism Summary is Too Long. The critism section has already listed all the subsection as an existing favor already given to this section ONLY. However, it is still expanding. The super long summary is not reasonable. Fnhddzs 00:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the Criticism section is not too long.  And what's this about a "favor"?  Just to remind you, Covenant did ask all of us to begin re-writing all of our summaries so that they wouldn't just be a repeat of the lead paragraph that appears in the auxiailiary article. That's what I have begun to do.  --Tomananda 01:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the ONLY section which keeps subsection on the main page. It is a favor. Thanks for reminder. I did not know that. But the daughter article does not have that same content anyway. So I moved to that main article. Nothing deleted yet. Fnhddzs 01:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Covenant's request was for all of us to make the main page read more like the Scientology page, and that's what I am trying to do. The Scientology page does have subsections for Criticism, but the goal is to get all the summaries to read more smoothly.  Therefore, I was planning on re-arranging some of the criticism sections, re-writing the summaries and, where possible, consolidate.  Tha main article will be a bit longer, but should read better when we are done. The "pro-Falun Gong" sections need to be re-written in the same light.  I don't want to be the only editor who is going down this path.  --Tomananda 02:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm sorry, Omido, but that's got to be one of the silliest reasons I've seen. If the Criticism section and article are more comprehensive, it's because Tomananda has focused his attention on them. (I am still waiting to see the consolidation of subsections and removal of duplicitive links, but I have faith that it will happen soon.) There has not been that kind of attention from the practioners for the other sections despite my repeated comments that they need new summaries. Perhaps you could work on them. As Fnhddzs has realized, this would bring more balance to the article. CovenantD 14:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Now that is something with which I agree. :-) CovenantD 15:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Just so everyone understands, I am going to tackle the Criticism page first, so please don't expect to see major changes on the main page.  There are many subsections within the Criticism page that are not summarized on the main page and some of them are just stubs.  My intent is to consolidate and re-order sections within the Criticism page first.  For example, I don't think it makes sense to have the Homosexuality article appear on the top of the Critisism page, since the summary on the main page assumes a different order (more chronological).   Plus sections like "Li as savior or supernatural entitity"  and "Claims about preventing catastrophes and cosmic explositions" can be consolidated.  This will take some time (at least a week), so please bear with me. Also, some additional writing will be needed on the Criticism page to cover the "early criticism" material, etc.  I expect to be able to do some consolidation there as well (eg: combining it with "Differeneces between Falun Gong, Buddhism, Qigong and other beliefs."  Also, this will require changing some of the subsection titles to be more generic.   --Tomananda 19:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please shorten the Critism Section Summary 

message: I'd like to get rid of the links in subsections that lead to subsections in daughter articles. I think that one link from the section to the daughter article is enough. It's a bit... overkill right now. CovenantD 17:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not convinced that all 7 daughter articles are going to survive. I've been reviewing them and some are very iffy in terms of NPOV, references, balance and duplication. Also, I still need to understand the difference between Teachings and Theoretical and Epistemological Studies as well as how Persecution is different from Outside of China. I'll have answers by the end of the week or I'm putting them up for merger. CovenantD 18:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Besides, each article needs to be balanced. We can't look at the sum total of articles for that - each and every one needs to meet the standards of Wikipedia, independent of each other. CovenantD 18:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, Omido, it's about Falun Gong. Samuel, I think there will end up being about 5 daughter articles, based on the amount of distinct material available. Each one will have to be balanced, so there won't automatically be PRO and CON articles aside from the Teachings and Controversies which are inherently POV in their premise. We will still balance those in terms of content, taking care not to give undue weight to any one side. CovenantD 19:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Now you're using a different standard for different sections. If you weren't, you'd have demanded that Tomananda's additions to the Criticism section be removed as well. There was no more discussion about that content than there was about the stuff in Teachings. You can't have it both ways, Samuel. So which is it going to be? They both go, or they both stay and we discuss them? 'Cause I'll pull Tomananda's stuff quicker than you can blink if you insist on this. CovenantD 21:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: * The current setting of the article has been there for a long time now.  When pro FG editors created more pages (and summaries for each of them) we simply added some subsection summaries of the criticism page to balance it out.  It’s been fair to both sides.  I don’t like your tone.  Yes, you might be fast but don’t forget you don’t have any authority on this page and you are not even a Wiki mediator.  Pro and Con editors should have an equal opportunity to express their point of view.  --Samuel Luo 21:42, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subsections 

message: The foundation of Falun Dafa are teachings known in traditional Chinese culture as the "Fa" (Dharma), or "Dharma and principles" – that are set forth in the book Zhuan Falun. Falun Gong teaches that what it calls the "Buddha Law" can be summarized in three words – Zhen 真, Shan 善 and Ren 忍, which translate approximately as 'truthfulness, benevolence (or compassion), and forbearance'. The process of cultivation is thought of to be one in which the practitioner assimilates himself or herself to Zhen 真, Shan 善 and Ren 忍.
The teachings and priciples of Falun Gong are captured in two main books written by Li Hongzhi: Falun Gong ( Law Wheel Qi Gong) and Zhuan Falun (Turning the Law Wheel). Falun Gong is an introductory book that discusses qigong, introduces the principles and provides illustrations and explanations of the exercises. Zhuan Falun is the core text of Falun Dafa practice.[7]
===Truthfulness, Benevolence and Forbearance===
Falun Gong teaches simultaneous cultivation of Truthfulness, Compassion and Endurance. The process of cultivation is said to be one in which the practitioner constantly assimilates to the nature of the Universe - Zhen, Shan, Ren ( Truthfulness, Compassion, Endurance).[citation needed]
Central to Falun Gong is the traditional concept of "cultivation practice" (xiulian) in which the practitioner constantly strives to improve his “xinxing” (mind-nature) by gradually letting go of attachments such as selfishness, hatred, jealousy, greed and all bad thoughts.[citation needed]
===Practice===
The term practice refers to the exercises. Falun Gong is a mind and body double cultivation system, while emphasizing cultivating mind nature first and cultivating body at the same time. There are five sets of exercises including one set of sitting meditation.
====Comments====
===Tomananda's version===
====Dafa and the the true nature of the universe====
Falun Gong teaches simultaneous cultivation of Truthfulness, Compassion and Endurance. The process of cultivation is said to be one in which the practitioner constantly assimilates to the nature of the Universe - Zhen, Shan, Ren ( Truthfulness, Compassion, Endurance). 
Li Hongzhi teaches that his Dafa “great law" created all beings in the cosmos and is currently judging mankind.   Hongzhi, Li (July 13, 1999)  “Further Comments on Superstitions” in Essentials II retrieved June 18, 2006  It is weeding out "the dregs of humanity and the degenerate world" in a process called "Fa-rectification."   Hongzhi, Li (July 13, 1999)  “The Vows of Gods are Being Fulfilled” in Essentials II retrieved June 18, 2006  Claiming to be the only one who is offering salvation to mankind, Hongzhi, Li "Whoever Practices Cultivation will Attain Gong" in Zhuan FalunThird Translation Edition (Updated March, 2000) USA Internet Version retrieved June 14, 2006  Li promises to turn his disciples into gods if they follow the moral requirements of his Dafa and expose what he considers to be the evil regime in China.  Hongzhi, Li (February 15, 2003)
 Fa-Lecture During the 2003 Lantern Festival at the U.S. West Fa Conference retrieved June 18, 2006 
,  Hongzhi, Li (September 19, 2004)  In Fa-Rectification Your Thoughts Have to Be Righteous, Not Human  in Essentials II retrieved June 18, 2006 
----
Note: I replaced the second paragraph, which didn't add anything that wasn't already covered in the first paragraph, with the higher teachings and changed the title.
Here's the original second paragraph for comparison:
----
Central to Falun Gong is the traditional concept of "cultivation practice" (xiulian) in which the practitioner constantly strives to improve his “xinxing” (mind-nature) by gradually letting go of attachments such as selfishness, hatred, jealousy, greed and all bad thoughts.[citation needed]
----
Notice that all it is talking about is ethics and could just as well appear in the ethics section. Falun Gong is also about more than ethics.  We must report the this in a summary of the teachings.  --Tomananda 08:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Samuel removed it. CovenantD 18:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: General relativity was developed by Einstein in the years 1911 - 1915. General relativity is a geometrical theory which postulates that the presence of matter "curves" spacetime, and this curvature affects the path of free particles (and even the path of light). It uses the mathematics of differential geometry and tensors in order to describe gravitation without the use of the force of gravity. This theory considers all observers to be equivalent, not only those moving with uniform speed.
You'll notice it is all of 4 sentences and yet summarizes the key points.  As I have said before, if you are not willing to do the writing, I will.  But it looks like you and other practitioners will continue to throw up road blocks to stall our progress in the hopes this critical issue will go away.  As long as you throw up these road blocks, you are failing to work cooperatively with other editors. 
Covenant: at some point we need to get out of this closed system of logic that the practitioner/editors are trapped in.  Their arguments are getting more and more ludicrous and irrelevant to any reasonable standard for Wikipedia editng.  Do you think it's time for us to seek mediation, or do you have another suggestion on how to proceed?  As you can see from the above discussion, there have been numerous attempts at compromise and numerous edit proposals made by 3 different editors.  In response to all these attemps, all we get is evasive, sometimes
preposterous arguments.  I do not blame any of the practitioners for this behavior, since it only reflects Li's ability to manipulate the thinking of his disciples. But still we need to move on.
--Tomananda 21:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm busy today, but I'll get to this tonight or tomorrow. CovenantD 22:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Omido:  You are not to blame for anything and I am not attacking you.  I do blame Master Li for the predicament he has created, though.  --Tomananda 23:35, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay, I'm back. I agree that Tomananda has a habit of not assuming good faith, which I've called him on a few times. On the other hand, I see practitioners constantly trying to convince everybody of the goodness of Falun Gong (see Omido's post above for a classic example) and trying to challenge anything that's not completely positive. Neither is very conducive to getting this article in shape. CovenantD 18:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Covenant:  I see you are proposing a different strategy.  I am concerned that in creating new material in the Falun Gong teachings section, we still will not wind up with a summary for the introduction which includes the ideas of salvation for all mankind and the Dafa judging all people.  Right now, those ideas are reported on the Criticism page but are left out of all the Teaching and related pages.  That's my concern, but I am willing to "assume good faith" as long as this material is summarized clearly at the top of the teaching page.  What has been happening all along when we reach this kind of impasse is that the practitioner/editors merely retrieve very long block quotes from the master without making any effort to summarize the material in a concise and readable format.  If all we get from this exercise is a seies of long Li quotes, without any attempt to write exposition of those quotes, we will be making this article worse rather than better.  Isn't there a Wikipedia standard on this?  --Tomananda 19:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I'm changing the strategy a bit, because I realized after you said something that the daughter article needs to be done before it can realistically be summarized here. The concepts of salvation and judgment need to be included in the Teachings article if they are of such importance. And no, we won't end up with a long series of quotes. That's not a good way to craft an article, and I want these to at least meet "Good Article" standards. CovenantD 19:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Omido:  I wouldn't even use the term "shallow" since that has a negative connotation. A summary, by it's very nature, needs to be general...which means "big idea" words like "salvation" or "judgment" are introduced, with further explanation appearing elsewhere.  Keep in mind this is an on-line encylopedia, so every "big word" that is used in the introdcution can be linked to a more detailed section on the Teachings page. --Tomananda 20:48, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: So who is engaging in personal attacks now?  Omido, this has nothing to do with either your POV or my POV, it has to do with our ability, as editors, to write a brief and simple summary statement about the soteriological teachings of Li's Dafa, which is saving all beings at this time.  In fact, Li says it is only his Dafa that can save all sentient beings at this time, does he not?  None of this is my POV, it is your Masters. If you wish to rephrase my wording, then please do so and offer a counter suggestion.  But to merely accuse me of having "personal emotions" (whatever that means) is not responsive to the editing task at hand.  --Tomananda 00:43, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New ''Teachings'' summary subsections 

message: ====Dafa and the the true nature of the universe====
Falun Gong teaches simultaneous cultivation of Truthfulness, Compassion and Endurance. The process of cultivation is said to be one in which the practitioner constantly assimilates to the nature of the Universe - Zhen, Shan, Ren ( Truthfulness, Compassion, Endurance). 
Li Hongzhi teaches that his Dafa “great law" created all beings in the cosmos and is currently judging mankind.   Hongzhi, Li (July 13, 1999)  “Further Comments on Superstitions” in Essentials II retrieved June 18, 2006  It is weeding out "the dregs of humanity and the degenerate world" in a process called "Fa-rectification."   Hongzhi, Li (July 13, 1999)  “The Vows of Gods are Being Fulfilled” in Essentials II retrieved June 18, 2006  Claiming to be the only one who is offering salvation to mankind, Hongzhi, Li "Whoever Practices Cultivation will Attain Gong" in Zhuan FalunThird Translation Edition (Updated March, 2000) USA Internet Version retrieved June 14, 2006  Li promises to turn his disciples into gods if they follow the moral requirements of his Dafa and expose what he considers to be the evil regime in China.  Hongzhi, Li (February 15, 2003)
 Fa-Lecture During the 2003 Lantern Festival at the U.S. West Fa Conference retrieved June 18, 2006 
,  Hongzhi, Li (September 19, 2004)  In Fa-Rectification Your Thoughts Have to Be Righteous, Not Human  in Essentials II retrieved June 18, 2006 
----
Note: I replaced the second paragraph, which didn't add anything that wasn't already covered in the first paragraph, with the higher teachings and changed the title.
Here's the original second paragraph for comparison:
----
Central to Falun Gong is the traditional concept of "cultivation practice" (xiulian) in which the practitioner constantly strives to improve his “xinxing” (mind-nature) by gradually letting go of attachments such as selfishness, hatred, jealousy, greed and all bad thoughts.[citation needed]
----
Notice that all it is talking about is ethics and could just as well appear in the ethics section. Falun Gong is also about more than ethics.  We must report the this in a summary of the teachings.  --Tomananda 08:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Samuel removed it. CovenantD 18:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: General relativity was developed by Einstein in the years 1911 - 1915. General relativity is a geometrical theory which postulates that the presence of matter "curves" spacetime, and this curvature affects the path of free particles (and even the path of light). It uses the mathematics of differential geometry and tensors in order to describe gravitation without the use of the force of gravity. This theory considers all observers to be equivalent, not only those moving with uniform speed.
You'll notice it is all of 4 sentences and yet summarizes the key points.  As I have said before, if you are not willing to do the writing, I will.  But it looks like you and other practitioners will continue to throw up road blocks to stall our progress in the hopes this critical issue will go away.  As long as you throw up these road blocks, you are failing to work cooperatively with other editors. 
Covenant: at some point we need to get out of this closed system of logic that the practitioner/editors are trapped in.  Their arguments are getting more and more ludicrous and irrelevant to any reasonable standard for Wikipedia editng.  Do you think it's time for us to seek mediation, or do you have another suggestion on how to proceed?  As you can see from the above discussion, there have been numerous attempts at compromise and numerous edit proposals made by 3 different editors.  In response to all these attemps, all we get is evasive, sometimes
preposterous arguments.  I do not blame any of the practitioners for this behavior, since it only reflects Li's ability to manipulate the thinking of his disciples. But still we need to move on.
--Tomananda 21:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm busy today, but I'll get to this tonight or tomorrow. CovenantD 22:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Omido:  You are not to blame for anything and I am not attacking you.  I do blame Master Li for the predicament he has created, though.  --Tomananda 23:35, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay, I'm back. I agree that Tomananda has a habit of not assuming good faith, which I've called him on a few times. On the other hand, I see practitioners constantly trying to convince everybody of the goodness of Falun Gong (see Omido's post above for a classic example) and trying to challenge anything that's not completely positive. Neither is very conducive to getting this article in shape. CovenantD 18:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Covenant:  I see you are proposing a different strategy.  I am concerned that in creating new material in the Falun Gong teachings section, we still will not wind up with a summary for the introduction which includes the ideas of salvation for all mankind and the Dafa judging all people.  Right now, those ideas are reported on the Criticism page but are left out of all the Teaching and related pages.  That's my concern, but I am willing to "assume good faith" as long as this material is summarized clearly at the top of the teaching page.  What has been happening all along when we reach this kind of impasse is that the practitioner/editors merely retrieve very long block quotes from the master without making any effort to summarize the material in a concise and readable format.  If all we get from this exercise is a seies of long Li quotes, without any attempt to write exposition of those quotes, we will be making this article worse rather than better.  Isn't there a Wikipedia standard on this?  --Tomananda 19:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I'm changing the strategy a bit, because I realized after you said something that the daughter article needs to be done before it can realistically be summarized here. The concepts of salvation and judgment need to be included in the Teachings article if they are of such importance. And no, we won't end up with a long series of quotes. That's not a good way to craft an article, and I want these to at least meet "Good Article" standards. CovenantD 19:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Omido:  I wouldn't even use the term "shallow" since that has a negative connotation. A summary, by it's very nature, needs to be general...which means "big idea" words like "salvation" or "judgment" are introduced, with further explanation appearing elsewhere.  Keep in mind this is an on-line encylopedia, so every "big word" that is used in the introdcution can be linked to a more detailed section on the Teachings page. --Tomananda 20:48, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: So who is engaging in personal attacks now?  Omido, this has nothing to do with either your POV or my POV, it has to do with our ability, as editors, to write a brief and simple summary statement about the soteriological teachings of Li's Dafa, which is saving all beings at this time.  In fact, Li says it is only his Dafa that can save all sentient beings at this time, does he not?  None of this is my POV, it is your Masters. If you wish to rephrase my wording, then please do so and offer a counter suggestion.  But to merely accuse me of having "personal emotions" (whatever that means) is not responsive to the editing task at hand.  --Tomananda 00:43, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tomananda's version

message: Falun Gong teaches simultaneous cultivation of Truthfulness, Compassion and Endurance. The process of cultivation is said to be one in which the practitioner constantly assimilates to the nature of the Universe - Zhen, Shan, Ren ( Truthfulness, Compassion, Endurance). 
Li Hongzhi teaches that his Dafa “great law" created all beings in the cosmos and is currently judging mankind.   Hongzhi, Li (July 13, 1999)  “Further Comments on Superstitions” in Essentials II retrieved June 18, 2006  It is weeding out "the dregs of humanity and the degenerate world" in a process called "Fa-rectification."   Hongzhi, Li (July 13, 1999)  “The Vows of Gods are Being Fulfilled” in Essentials II retrieved June 18, 2006  Claiming to be the only one who is offering salvation to mankind, Hongzhi, Li "Whoever Practices Cultivation will Attain Gong" in Zhuan FalunThird Translation Edition (Updated March, 2000) USA Internet Version retrieved June 14, 2006  Li promises to turn his disciples into gods if they follow the moral requirements of his Dafa and expose what he considers to be the evil regime in China.  Hongzhi, Li (February 15, 2003)
 Fa-Lecture During the 2003 Lantern Festival at the U.S. West Fa Conference retrieved June 18, 2006 
,  Hongzhi, Li (September 19, 2004)  In Fa-Rectification Your Thoughts Have to Be Righteous, Not Human  in Essentials II retrieved June 18, 2006 
----
Note: I replaced the second paragraph, which didn't add anything that wasn't already covered in the first paragraph, with the higher teachings and changed the title.
Here's the original second paragraph for comparison:
----
Central to Falun Gong is the traditional concept of "cultivation practice" (xiulian) in which the practitioner constantly strives to improve his “xinxing” (mind-nature) by gradually letting go of attachments such as selfishness, hatred, jealousy, greed and all bad thoughts.[citation needed]
----
Notice that all it is talking about is ethics and could just as well appear in the ethics section. Falun Gong is also about more than ethics.  We must report the this in a summary of the teachings.  --Tomananda 08:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dafa and the the true nature of the universe

message: Disagree, why you delete the existing one? Fnhddzs 13:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Samuel removed it. CovenantD 18:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: General relativity was developed by Einstein in the years 1911 - 1915. General relativity is a geometrical theory which postulates that the presence of matter "curves" spacetime, and this curvature affects the path of free particles (and even the path of light). It uses the mathematics of differential geometry and tensors in order to describe gravitation without the use of the force of gravity. This theory considers all observers to be equivalent, not only those moving with uniform speed.
You'll notice it is all of 4 sentences and yet summarizes the key points.  As I have said before, if you are not willing to do the writing, I will.  But it looks like you and other practitioners will continue to throw up road blocks to stall our progress in the hopes this critical issue will go away.  As long as you throw up these road blocks, you are failing to work cooperatively with other editors. 
Covenant: at some point we need to get out of this closed system of logic that the practitioner/editors are trapped in.  Their arguments are getting more and more ludicrous and irrelevant to any reasonable standard for Wikipedia editng.  Do you think it's time for us to seek mediation, or do you have another suggestion on how to proceed?  As you can see from the above discussion, there have been numerous attempts at compromise and numerous edit proposals made by 3 different editors.  In response to all these attemps, all we get is evasive, sometimes
preposterous arguments.  I do not blame any of the practitioners for this behavior, since it only reflects Li's ability to manipulate the thinking of his disciples. But still we need to move on.
--Tomananda 21:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm busy today, but I'll get to this tonight or tomorrow. CovenantD 22:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Omido:  You are not to blame for anything and I am not attacking you.  I do blame Master Li for the predicament he has created, though.  --Tomananda 23:35, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay, I'm back. I agree that Tomananda has a habit of not assuming good faith, which I've called him on a few times. On the other hand, I see practitioners constantly trying to convince everybody of the goodness of Falun Gong (see Omido's post above for a classic example) and trying to challenge anything that's not completely positive. Neither is very conducive to getting this article in shape. CovenantD 18:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Covenant:  I see you are proposing a different strategy.  I am concerned that in creating new material in the Falun Gong teachings section, we still will not wind up with a summary for the introduction which includes the ideas of salvation for all mankind and the Dafa judging all people.  Right now, those ideas are reported on the Criticism page but are left out of all the Teaching and related pages.  That's my concern, but I am willing to "assume good faith" as long as this material is summarized clearly at the top of the teaching page.  What has been happening all along when we reach this kind of impasse is that the practitioner/editors merely retrieve very long block quotes from the master without making any effort to summarize the material in a concise and readable format.  If all we get from this exercise is a seies of long Li quotes, without any attempt to write exposition of those quotes, we will be making this article worse rather than better.  Isn't there a Wikipedia standard on this?  --Tomananda 19:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I'm changing the strategy a bit, because I realized after you said something that the daughter article needs to be done before it can realistically be summarized here. The concepts of salvation and judgment need to be included in the Teachings article if they are of such importance. And no, we won't end up with a long series of quotes. That's not a good way to craft an article, and I want these to at least meet "Good Article" standards. CovenantD 19:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Omido:  I wouldn't even use the term "shallow" since that has a negative connotation. A summary, by it's very nature, needs to be general...which means "big idea" words like "salvation" or "judgment" are introduced, with further explanation appearing elsewhere.  Keep in mind this is an on-line encylopedia, so every "big word" that is used in the introdcution can be linked to a more detailed section on the Teachings page. --Tomananda 20:48, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: So who is engaging in personal attacks now?  Omido, this has nothing to do with either your POV or my POV, it has to do with our ability, as editors, to write a brief and simple summary statement about the soteriological teachings of Li's Dafa, which is saving all beings at this time.  In fact, Li says it is only his Dafa that can save all sentient beings at this time, does he not?  None of this is my POV, it is your Masters. If you wish to rephrase my wording, then please do so and offer a counter suggestion.  But to merely accuse me of having "personal emotions" (whatever that means) is not responsive to the editing task at hand.  --Tomananda 00:43, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: In the years prior to the ban, Falun Gong’s main critics came from the Chinese religious community and academics whose concerns about the possible harmful effects of  Falun Gong teachings were reported in the media.   As early as 1995, Li’s teachings “began to come under criticism for being superstition” Rahn, Patsy (2002) “The Chemistry of a Conflict: The Chinese Government and the Falun Gong” in Terrorism and Political Violence, Winter, 2002, Vol 14, No. 4 (London: Frank Cass Publishers)  reprinted in Cultic Studies Review, subscription required and by 1996 the  Buddhist Association and Buddhist journals were issuing in-depth critiques of Falun Gong. Penny, Benjamin, “The Falun Gong, Buddhism and ‘Buddhist qigong’”, Asian Studies Review March 2005, Vol 29, pp.35-46.  
In order to understand this early criticism, commentators suggest we need to apply a cultural understanding of China’s history. As context for stories about the Falun Gong ban, Western media have often reported China’s history of quasi-religious movements which turned into violent insurrections.  Associated Press (July 22, 1999) “Banned sect joins long Chinese history of religious suppression” retrieved June 17, 2006 , Engardio, Joel "Spiritual Cultivation" New Times, Los Angeles (March 23-29, 2000) retrieved on June 14, 2006  Two often-cited examples are the bloody Taiping rebellion of 1845-1864—led by a person claiming to be the “Son of God”-- and the failed Boxer rebellion led by a secret society which announced in 1899 that “ten calamities” would soon occur, followed by salvation.   Chang, Maria Hsia (2004)  Falun Gong: The End of Days (New Haven, Connecticut:  Yale University Press)     
Patsy Rahn (2002) describes a paradigm of conflict between Chinese sectarian groups and the rulers they often challenge. According to Rahn, the history of this paradigm goes back to the collapse of the Han dynasty: "The pattern of ruling power keeping a watchful eye on sectarian groups, at times threatened by them, at times raising campaigns against them, began as early as the second century and continued throughout the dynastic period, through the Mao era and into the present.” Although Rahn does not ask us to accept non-critically the strategic choices made by the Chinese government, she does state that within this historical paradigm, the “ruthless and radical responses” made by the Chinese Communist Party against the perceived threat of the Falun Gong can be seen “as appropriate, necessary and acceptable.”   According to Rahn, the CCP views the conflict with the Falun Gong as one between “the people and their enemies” for several reasons:
*1) the government believes Li’s teachings endanger people, mainly due to the teachings regarding medicine;
*2) the government believes Li’s teachings were gaining enough adherents across China and specifically within the CCP to be a potential rival ideologically;
*3) because Li moved to the US and has, according to the government’s view, linked up with those in the west who wish to see the fall of the CCP. 
In the years since the ban, Falun Gong has gotten increased critical attention from cult experts and some academics, while also garnering support from the mainstream media and civil rights groups because of it’s allegations of persecution by the Chinese Communist Party.
===Comments===
That is fair.  I see that you post both material here for discussion. --Samuel Luo 22:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd rather we did it while they were up (I want to give leeway to both sides), but if this is the way we have to go... CovenantD 22:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: This isn't a bad summary in my opinion. It's a bit long though. Perhaps the third paragraph can be shortened. I also hope you realize that even the summary should be balanced, so some points may be inserted to counter some of the claims. Such as the fact that the Buddhist Association, and likely most Buddhist journals, is a CCP organization. Mcconn 15:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New ''Criticism'' section summary 

message: That is fair.  I see that you post both material here for discussion. --Samuel Luo 22:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd rather we did it while they were up (I want to give leeway to both sides), but if this is the way we have to go... CovenantD 22:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: This isn't a bad summary in my opinion. It's a bit long though. Perhaps the third paragraph can be shortened. I also hope you realize that even the summary should be balanced, so some points may be inserted to counter some of the claims. Such as the fact that the Buddhist Association, and likely most Buddhist journals, is a CCP organization. Mcconn 15:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: I will review the info when I have a change.
Here's the rick ross article:
http://www.cultnews.com/index.php/2006/06/19/falun-gong-leader-served-subpoena-scheduled-to-testify-in-new-york-court-this-week/
Of Course, after court, the FLG may well be a moot point.
Let's all chant together kum-bi-ya.
Cj cawley 00:46, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Best of luck. -- Миборовский 02:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: EDIT: It is advised that Mr Cawley refrain from editing anything related to his court case (or even better, anything Falun Gong-related) while his case is in progress... to avoid legal entanglements and such. -- Миборовский 03:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sorry, I was in court with the FLG and CCTV 

message: It was agreed to add subsections to sections  other than the critism due to its super fat status. But Samuel Luo deleted it without consensus. Fnhddzs 13:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subsections 

message: This title has been bothering me since the article was split a month ago. We never consensed to this name. In fact, if you look at /Archive8 you'll see that we were going to call it "Chinese Gov't suppression of Falun Gong" because "Persectution" was seen as inherently POV. I've just reread that archive and there seems to be consensus from both side to use Suppression. As such, I'm going to change it to the more NPOV "Suppression of Falun Gong." CovenantD 14:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There has been doubt expressed about the holocaust, too, but it is a fact, regardless of what David Irving and his buddies say. Denying the inhuman nature of CCP's persecution of Falun Gong is screening crimes against humanity. Ample evidence of torture in China's labor camps is substantiated by many non-partisan studies, including Manfred Nowak's UN report from 2005. And like Dilip pointed out, the term "persecution" is used by Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and various governmental institutions. In addition, saying that Falun Gong got suppressed because of "illegal" activities requires some kind of reference to what is meant by "illegal" under a Communist dictatorship. Then again, many readers already know that even the students on Tiananmen square got crushed by tanks because they were class enemies engaging in illegal activities... ---Olaf Stephanos 22:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persecution of Falun Gong -> Suppression of Falun Gong 

message: ----
Falun Gong 法輪功 (literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") is also known as Falun Dafa 法輪大法(literally "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi (surname is Li) in 1992.  Falun Gong refers to five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation).   In Zhuan Falun, the Dafa is introduced this way: “Our Falun Dafa is one of the eighty-four thousand cultivation ways in the Buddha School. During the historical period of this human civilization, it has never been made public. In a prehistoric period, however, it was once widely used to provide salvation to humankind. In this final period of Last Havoc, I am making it public again. Therefore, it is extremely precious."   In recent years, added emphasis has been placed on the concept of Fa-Rectification. 
----
This is a version that combines material from almost everyone’s suggestion.  No practitioner can sufficiently understand the Master’s teachings therefore we must quote Li’s words. --Samuel Luo 02:16, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  samuel's second suggestion 

message: thanks for your support, I have just updated the paragraph in reaching of deadline. --Samuel Luo 04:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *This is the only version supported by the majority, it therefore should be used.  Why don't you start making suggestion to improve it further instead of deletion.  Shameless? you guys are the ones who have been making nasty personal attacks, you should point your finger at yourself and your FG friends  --Yueyuen 06:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

text: No, according to what we agreed, it is consensus vote, NOT a majority vote. Please respect and be honest to yourself and to others. Fnhddzs 06:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

text: You misunderstood it, Samuel, if I assume you did not do this intentionally. Otherwise you think CovenantD misunderstood it? Be honest to yourself. Fnhddzs 07:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *Fnhddzs I have accommodated all your complaints, see the following list:
You said: At least the typo still exists (the first line). Delete the end time. That does not exist in the quotes.
These changes you requested have been made.
You said: Also did we agree on adding "to the public" before "in 1992"?
This request is also honored.   
Your only request I have not responded to is this-- “Falun gong refers to both teachings and exercises.”  Please make this statement clear in meaning so I can respond to it.  You need to have a good reason to reject, wikipedia is not your own website and we are not going to stop improving the article because you are objecting.     --Samuel Luo 06:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I'd like to request that the wiktionary links to the Chinese characters go back in whichever version of the page is finally decided on. They have a way of putting the phraseology Li likes to use into a greater, perhaps even encyclopaedic, context. --Fire Star 火星 07:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Why? It's a good idea to let others know so that further suggestions can incorporate those reasons. CovenantD 18:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  1st paragraph of intro is updated 

message: The page has been protected on request until the results of the above straw poll on the introduction are complete -- Samir   धर्म 07:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Fnhddzs are you happy now?  You have again violated the 3RR but there is no point reporting you. --Samuel Luo 07:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: To any passing admins: I request that this be substituted for the 1st paragraph. It is the same wording that exists now, but returns the links to Wiktionary that have existed for months and properly formats the references. These are the only changes from the version that is in place. CovenantD 14:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  minor copyedit to 1st paragraph requested 

message: Master Li paints a pretty scary picture of the future for homosexuals and those who in their hearts do not think his Dafa is good.  By my count, that can easily include a billion plus people on this planet. There are hundreds of millions of homosexuals world-wide and the overwhelming majority of Chinese people believe that Li's teachings are harmful and bad.  Omido, when you say Li talks about how wonoderful the future will be, you should qualify that statement by saying it will be wonderful only for those who are worthy of being saved by Li and his Dafa.  So really it's a mixed future, depending on how your worth is judged by Master Li, isn't it?  Or do you think all the unworthy people whom Li castigates will actually consider their future punishments to be "wonderful"?   Just asking.
*No matter how the evil persecutes, what awaits Dafa disciples is still Consummation, and what awaits the evil beings is nothing but eternally paying in Hell for all they have done to interfere with and persecute the Fa-rectification and Dafa disciples.   “Look at Things with Righteous Thoughts,”  Falun Gong Web Site,  March 8, 2002.
*Once the saved ones have attained the Fa and left, the dregs of humanity and degenerate world that are left behind will be weeded out.   Essentials for Further Advancement II,   item 28
*(Speaking of SARS) To put it in human terms, it’s Heaven punishing people. What it’s targeting, we Dafa disciples know full well: it’s targeting those who don’t deserve to be saved, who are impossible to save while Dafa disciples clarify the truth, and who aren’t useful to the evil rotten spirits. This is the first round of cleansing. Heaven is punishing the evil, yet China is still lying to cover up the number of deaths, and I’ll tell you, it’s huge, and it hasn’t peaked yet. People find it scary, but in fact, the truly horrible thing hasn’t begun yet. This isn’t the real, big cleansing when the Fa starts to rectify the human world. It’ll be even more horrifying when that big cleansing arrives, and it’ll target the entire world. When the vicious people go crazy they don’t fear anything, but, when the calamity really descends on them they’ll be stunned. Wait and see, this is going to be an eventful year. A lot is going to happen.  Teaching and Explaining the Fa at the Metropolitan New York Fa Conference (April 20, 2003)
*(Speaking of homosexuals) But the karma that some people have accrued is too much, in which case the fundamental elements of their existence will be implicated and destroyed. Homosexuals not only violate the standards that gods set for mankind, but also damage human society’s moral code. In particular, the impression it gives children will turn future societies into something demonic. That’s the issue. That kind of destruction, however, isn’t just about disappearing after they’re annihilated. That person is annihilated layer after layer at a rate that seems pretty rapid to us, but in fact it’s extremely slow in that time field. Over and over again, one is annihilated in an extremely painful way. It’s terribly frightening.  Switzerland Speech, 1998  
*(Speaking of people who don't agree with Li's Fa) Let me tell you, when this Fa-rectification matter is over, humankind will enter the next stage, and those people and beings who in their minds think that the Great Fa of the cosmos isn’t good will be the first weeded out.  It’s because no matter how bad some being in the cosmos are, they are even worse, for what they’re against is the Fa of the cosmos.  So when we clarify the truth, we’re eliminating people’s evil thoughts towards Dafa.   Teaching the Fa at the Great Lakes Fa conference in North America (December 9, 2000 in Ann Arbor),  p.1.   --Tomananda 21:53, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Not everyone will have a "wonderful" future according to Master Li...

message: Here's a proposal, let the FLG followers directly introduce FLG and quote cite the texts on the main page.
Wait...isn't that already done on Falundafa.org and Minghui.net?
--Yenchin 07:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Here's a proposal 

message: Here are comments from Andres. He requested me to put on this discussion page. 
Well accepted Firestar's suggestion, here is the link  Thanks, Firestar. Fnhddzs 23:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The above, rather lengthy, contribution should probably be replaced by a simple link to the appropriate section of your talk page. --Fire Star 火星 22:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Fnhddzs#Some_comments_on_Falun_Gong Comments from Andres] 

message: Falun Gong, (; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") also known as Falun Dafa, (; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of mind and body cultivation within the Buddha-School which was introduced by Li Hongzhi (surname is Li) to the public in 1992.  Falun Gong refers to five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation).Falun Dafa.org "The Exercises of Falun Dafa", retrieved June 23, 2006 and Xinxing Cultivation (a process in which the practitioner constantly assimilates to the nature of the Universe - Truthfulness, Compassion, Endurance by letting go of various attachments and desires).  Reference for xinxing cultivation.  In Zhuan Falun, Falun Dafa is introduced by Li in this way: “Our Falun Dafa is one of the Buddhist system’s 84,000 disciplines. It’s never been passed on to the general public before during this period of civilization, but it did once save people on a large scale in a prehistoric age. Today I’m spreading it again widely during this final period of the kalpa’s end, so it’s just extremely precious."Hongzhi, Li. "Lecture One:Characteristics of Falun Dafa, Falundafa.org, retreived June 23, 2006 In recent years, due to the persecution, added emphasis has been placed on the concept of "Fa-Rectification Cultivation"  Reference for Fa-Rectification Cultivation. 
This is a very good version because it includes everything, Xinxing cultivation, the newer translation of how Li describes Falun Dafa, and the concept of Fa-Rectification Cultivation.
/Omido 11:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I want to see the references, especially the one that defines Xinxing cultivation. CovenantD 14:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: How about actually reading the teachings? You should know what this means. Go here to read about it:  Perhaps we can link this phrase to an explanation in the teachings section.Mcconn 08:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *For a long period of time the sentient beings in Dafa, especially the disciples, have had a misunderstanding of the Fa at various levels regarding xinxing improvement. Whenever a tribulation comes, you do not see it with the side of your original nature but view it completely with your human side. Evil demons then capitalize on this point and inflict endless interference and damage, leaving students in long-term tribulations. As a matter of fact, this results from an inadequate understanding of the Fa by your human side. You have humanly restrained your divine side; in other words, you have restrained the parts that have been successfully cultivated and have prevented them from doing Fa-rectification. How can the uncultivated side restrain your main thoughts or the side that has already attained the Fa? Having humanly fostered the evil demons, you allow them to capitalize on the loopholes in the Fa. When a tribulation arrives, if you, a disciple, can truly maintain an unshakable calm or be determined to meet different requirements at different levels, this should be sufficient for you to pass the test. If it continues endlessly and if there do not exist other problems in your xinxing or conduct, it must be that the evil demons are capitalizing on the weak spots caused by your lack of control. After all, a cultivator is not an ordinary human. So why doesn’t the side of you that is your original nature rectify the Fa? 
Forget it Tomananda, we won't use your words to describe the Fa-Rectification in the intro, the Fa-Rectification will have it own section which will explain it in-depth. /Omido 22:18, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Omid's introduction Suggestion