Talk:Spot (fish)

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thread_title: [[WP:FOOD|WikiProject Food and drink]] Tagging

message: Does it matter which common name you use in the article as long as you are consistent? I see it is referred to as the Spot croaker, yet the article references Spot. I'm uncertain of the convention here when there are two accepted common names.--JimmyButler (talk) 23:47, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Spot may just be a shortened version of the name, and used as spot in the article because ites easier (possibly). Hard to say, as long as it makes sense i htink its ok.P0PP4B34R732 (talk) 23:53, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spot Croaker or Spot 

message: *http://www.sms.si.edu/irlspec/leiosto_xanthu.htm
:::Patvac-chs (talk) 02:37, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Related Cites

message: Predators such as striped bass, weakfish, summer flounder, bluefish, and sharks eat them in turn. Taken directly from the source without benefit of quotations. There are other incidences which are lifted with little or no modification from the original text. The copy / paste button is a guarantee fail for GA. The beauty of a stub, there is so little content, it is easy to correct the errors of those that went before. In this case July 22 2009. Clean up what's there before it gets buried and you get the blame! --JimmyButler (talk) 01:10, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copy Paste .... seriously? 

message: Croaking mechanism of Sciaenidae is a stub that i created to link to from this article. Any and all positive edits or reviews are appreciated Dmanrulz180 (talk) 04:02, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the stub; however, it might be a good idea to expand the croaking section on this article to specify why this fish croaks... is it for mating?--JimmyButler (talk) 04:30, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stub I created 

message: Why is "Spot croaker" capitalized in the title of the article, yet in the body of article it is lower case?--Haydenowensrulz (talk) 03:44, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capitalization

message: This article is filled with information that is 1 not all verifiable such as the distance measured to find hatching larvae & 2 just plain incorrect information. Starting with the name. Spot are not referred to as spot croakers they are only referred to by 3 names Norfolk Spot , Spot or Spot Fish & Yellow-belly during spawn season when some of their belly's are yellow.
I have re-created this topic on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spot_Fish and am requesting assistance in cleaning up appearance of the information and for a swift removal of this page. if a compromise need be made it would be to delete both pages and recreate as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spot(fish)
Cheatspace (talk) 13:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: There should not be a second article on the same subject. If there are fixes that need made, please discuss them on the talk page and work on integrating them here. —C.Fred (talk) 23:46, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Misinformation 

message: This article is copied 100% from a website owned by ( Copyright MarineBio.ca 2015 | All Rights Reserved | A Canadian Marinebio Site. )- TOS =  http://marinebio.org/marinebio/copyright/
Information location = http://www.marinebio.ca/species/l/leiostomus/
ATTN: Epipelagic
Cheatspace (talk) 01:55, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually there are what could be some copy violations from MarineBio. It is not clear, since MarineBio doesn't seem to have an edit history, whether Wikipedia copied from them or the other way round. --Epipelagic (talk) 02:04, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The internet archive crawled their site in April 2014, but this page was not there at the time. Since our article existed in basically this form then, it's likely that they copied us. —C.Fred (talk) 02:13, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears Cheatspace is looking for any reason to have this article removed and have Spot Fish as the main article.  He's already made this gross personal attack and made a legal threat, so I don't know why s/he is not blocked.  APK whisper in my ear 02:21, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Wikipedia article is minutely and verifiably referenced to other sources. The MarineBio article is not, and is clearly copied from the Wikipedia article. Accordingly, I have removed the copyvio template. --Epipelagic (talk) 02:24, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you.  APK whisper in my ear 02:27, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

text: As I pointed out, our article predated the earliest appearance of this at Archive.org. —C.Fred (talk) 06:15, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright violation 

message: Just about everyone here seems to be making mistakes. What do we have? A new editor (account created less than 48 hours ago) who obviously has extensive first-hand knowledge of the topic and is obviously here to improve Wikipedia. That editor is unused to our ways, has become frustrated at what may have seemed like pig-headed obstruction, has behaved in ways that are not acceptable here, and is already at ANI. Some questions:
* , when you removed the copyvio notice, were you satisfied that the apparent copyvio added  and flagged on this page in 2011 was in fact correctly dealt with ?
* , are you aware that we try not to WP:BITE good-faith new users? Are you also able to distinguish a personal attack such as "You fucking idiot ... " from a general attack, ? I'm not in any way condoning the incivility here, but the difference is important.
* , would you consider striking out your remarks on 's talk page? Or asking someone else to do so on your behalf? It would also be appreciated if you were to make clear (here, on that talk page or on your own talk page) that you did not intend to make a legal threat with your comments there (legal threats are absolutely not permitted in Wikipedia). Would you also consider visiting the WP:TEAHOUSE to ask for help and advice on how to reach compromise and consensus with other editors on what this fish should be called and so on?
* I'm no ichthyologist, but has anyone actually bothered to check the long list of references provided by Cheatspace  in support of his/her thesis? Or noticed that a Scholar search for "spot croaker" overwhelmingly yields results for "... spot, croaker ..."?
Perhaps everyone involved here could take a step back or a deep breath or something, and then try to move forward in a more collaborative spirit? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 14:09, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: , um, yes I'm well aware of WP:BITE.  Are you aware of WP:NPA and WP:LEGAL?  Of course you are, just like I'm obviously aware of WP:BITE since I've been around this site for quite some time.  As long as Cheatspace removes the legal threat and stops the gross personal attacks, it's fine.  But let's not pretend an adult might not comprehend calling others a "fucking idiot" could be interpreted as aggressive and against this site's policies.  APK whisper in my ear 23:13, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I should note though I appreciate that you're trying to help.  APK whisper in my ear 23:49, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

text: , Please read Wikipedia:Be bold and Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. You did well in your initial bold attempts to change the article. But when you were reverted you should have discussed your changes rather than trying to force them. I hope you stay at Wikipedia, but in order to be successful here you need to be more collaborative with other editors. —teb728 t c 05:47, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent edits

message: Tag  , 
I am trying to rewrite this 100% from scratch however I wish none of my content to be labeled in any way Spot Croaker as it would be false. 
I do welcome any help that will be offered please make note of any changes you have made and only use resources found that predate this Wikipedia page. 
- What I have so far, Yes I know there are Grammar issues which is why I post here first -
Leiostomus xanthurus also known as the Spot fish is a small silvery saltwater fish native to the eastern coast of the uninited states populating the Atlantic Ocean from Maine
to Florida, best known for its presence in the Chesapeake Bay, also known as the Norfolk Spot & Yellowbelly this fish is a member of the Drum family Sciaenidae and is sometimes confused
by novice fishermen with the White Croaker however confused in appearance 2 distinct things help with identifying the difference between these 2 species. Spot fish have a distint dark brown
sometimes seen as black spot on both of their lateral 2 sides located just behind and slightly upwards their operculum or "gilcover". Also in contrary to the Croaker, Spot's cannot make the croaking sound. Which is why it is easy to most fishermen to distinguish between the two.
Spot are more commonly found in the Chesapeake Bay and in the Pamlico Sound of North Carolina. However they can be found everywhere along the Atlantic Coast of the Uninted States
from Maine to the keys of Flordia, Also within part of the Gulf of Mexico. 
Spot tend to be bottom feeders, targeting worms, small crustaceans & mollusks. Younger spot tend to feed on zooplankton until large enough to seek out other meals. 
Spot are the natural prey of the following fish. Striped Bass, Flounder, Sand Shark, Dog Fish, Weakfish, Puppy Drum, Red Drum, Black Drum, Spotted Seatrout, Atlantic, King & Spanish Mackerel,
Barracuda, Cobia, Black Sea Bass, Tautog, Tarpon, Dolphin. The list can go on for some time however these are some of the most known predators of the spot fish.
From the late spring into early fall months Spot can be found in the coastal waters, rivers & bays in which they inhabit, When the water starts to cool in the early fall
months spot fish begin their migration to deeper water where they spawn & spend the Winter months, Spot lay their eggs along the continental shelf.As those eggs hatch the 
Larvae feed on the plentiful zoo-plankton until large enough to swim inland, while young the Spot tends to seek out low salinity waters such as the brackish swamps along the
Elizabeth River feeding on Brine Shrimp & detritus. Once Spot grow to around 3 inches they tend to leave the brackish waters for higher salinity waters usually sticking to the 
reedy areas of the rivers until around 5-6 inches favoring waters 3-5 feet deep. Around this time Spot start to migrate into the deeper portions of the rivers into the bay which
soon after they leave for the ocean around 7-9 inches overall the Spot gets to around 12 inches or 1 foot in length and lives for about 4 Years. 
Cheatspace (talk) 05:21, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt that you will get consensus to rewrite 100% from scratch. In any case, your draft has totally omitted all references; replacing sourced content with unsourced is a non-starter. By policy, “any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source”. And it has no formatting—like “The spot (Leiostomus xanthurus) or spot croaker…” It would be difficult to remove all mention of “spot croaker,” for the article has a source for that name. And if you are contending that the spot, unlike other sciaenids does not have a croaking mechanism, you would need a source for that. —teb728 t c 06:41, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  As promised 

message: " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dmanrulz180 "
I would like to take this time to point out a child made this Wikipedia page for an AP bio page, A very lazy child it would appear to me who copied and pasted most of the information, which I do not fault that part for except when he copied the name from the MD Wildlife page Spot, Croaker, Drum he copied Spot, Croaker removed the , and we are left with this misrepresentation.
Who I might add treats his Wiki page more like a facebook or myspace account listing his interests of which you will not find Fishing or AP Bio.
Cheatspace (talk) 05:45, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This article was titled "Spot croaker" prior to Dmanrulz180's edits. Wikipedia didn't invent the name "spot croaker". Scientists working with the United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization invented "spot croaker" as a common name for Leiostomus xanthurus sometime before Wikipedia's existence (as can be seen in a 1999 source here). I'm not disputing that people fishing in the Chesapeake only refer to this fish as "spot", but I do want to note that there is an imbalance between "official" global common name (from the FAO) and the common names name used by people who encounter a particular fish regularly. Plantdrew (talk) 03:38, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interesting point 

message: Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML0720/ML072060325.pdf and http://www.sms.si.edu/irlspec/Leiosto_xanthu.htm. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and according to fair use may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you.  Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:28, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright problem removed 

message: So I understand that fishing for more than 20 yrs of my life in the Chesapeake bay don't count for squat here. So I will let you know you will not find many SCIENTIFIC articles relating to how to catch fish using spot as bait. That being said. Here are some articles & forums which you can learn from (or you can be like me and actually, you know do it for 20 years?)
http://www.stripersonline.com/t/539296/using-spot-for-bait
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBly2vEwv3k (also notice as this spot is on the hook as bait he is not croaking and is very much alive)
http://www.oysterbaytackle.com/index.php/drifting-easy/123-how-do-i-catch-live-bait-for-flounder-and-other-large-fish-such-as-stripers-and-trout.html
http://www.thebassbarn.com/forum/7-delaware-bay-forum/153421-hooking-spot-striperr-bait-question.html
http://web.vims.edu/adv/aqua/Spot%20as%20Live%20Bait%20Advisory1.pdf
http://web.vims.edu/adv/aqua/Spot%20as%20Live%20Bait%20Advisory1.pdf
corrected the direct url. teb728  and every one of my links are reliable, When it comes to fishing information, scholars do not NORMALLY study the art / craft of line fishing. That being said give me a list of TYPES of sources you will accept for citation for IE: Fishing Charters, Fishing Bait information, A video of myself catching trout, drum & flounder with live spot. I mean really define RELIABLE for this sort of information.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Common_knowledge <--- It is common knowledge with all fishermen that most small fish are good live bait in both fresh and salt water, ie [[Herring], Shiner Minnow , Gudgeon, Mullet, Sheeps Head, Brim & Crappie  . there are way too many to list.
Also, Video is legitimate Source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Video_links
Also
http://saltwaterfishing.sc.gov/pdf/SaltwaterFishPocketGuide.pdf
This PDF shows a full list of Fish located in SC, most of which are all along the east coast, also lists which fish you can use "small live fish" to fish for, See Angling " These are strong, hard-hitting game fish
that frequently make numerous runs.
They are caught trolling, bottom fishing,
jigging and casting live baits and lures.
Effective live baits include soft and hard
crabs, eels, squid, and small fish." 
And that is for Cobia . 
Cheatspace (talk) 04:07, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: So what is all that supposed to prove? Your last link is broken, and none of others is even a reliable source. —teb728 t c 02:43, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:   Please do not change your comments after someone else has replied to them. You should start a new comment below the reply you received. Otherwise you are going to make it look as though people who reply to you are stupid and do not read what you have written. That will not win you much support. I sympathise with how you feel about your experiences, but you need to be clear that your focus is somewhat confined to the Chesapeake Bay area. You need also to be clear on what Wikipedia is about. Wikipedia's role does not include righting what you  personally think of as wrongs or pushing bravely into new frontiers of knowledge engineered by yourself. The role is to reflect faithfully the current state of human knowledge as reflected by what are generally accepted as reliable sources, warts and all. You should read carefully wp:verifiability and wp:reliable sources. Even when FishBase and the FAO get it wrong, as they do sometimes, those errors are still part of what is the definitive currently position, and it is our job to reflect that. Maybe next week the FAO will put out an official bulletin saying they have read your comments here and they now realize that everything you say is correct. THEN you can insert your views in the article so long as you cite the FAO bulletin as your source. --Epipelagic (talk) 04:44, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

text: FishBase is not usually an extensive source of information on prey and predators, but is used on Wikipedia to maintain some consistency regarding taxonomy, and as a generally reliable source for range distributions and common names, as well as miscellaneous descriptions and information about things like lengths, weights and habitats. The FAO usually offer useful information if the species is commercially significant. In such cases it can offer extensive information in the form of species fact sheets. See for example this fact sheet for the spotted wobbegong. The IUCN can offer useful information, particularly if a species is threatened (such as this article on the largetooth sawfish). There are many other ways of locating reliable information. Google Scholar allows you to search scholarly articles, Google Books does the same for books, as does Google News for news. You may find purchasing some solid text books on fish and vertebrates useful. It is not always easy to find reliable information about recreational fishing, and some of the blogs and forums you have been listing are not acceptable. --Epipelagic (talk) 06:03, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

text: I am sorry however I must discredit FAO & Fishbase. this from the FAO citation page for the Spot © FAO 2010-2015. 
FAO FishFinder - Web Site. FAO FishFinder Contacts. FI Institutional Websites. In: FAO Fisheries and Aquaculture Department [online]. Rome. Updated . [Cited 3 March 2015]. http://www.fao.org/fishery/topic/18034/en "2010 - 2015" People manage these websites go to places like Wikipedia to gather quick information. I will be in contact with FAO to correct this. 
Also Fishbase Again likely farmed or updated from Wikipedia information. As technology evolves and the internet grows more and more people rely on Wikipedia for accurate information, rather than going out seeking reliable studies or first hand encounters.
Cheatspace (talk) 15:44, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

text: NO! I gave you a link to an FAO publication from 1999 in a different section. Here it is again. Epipelagic gave you several other sources predating Wikipedia in the requested move section. "Spot croaker" originated with FAO before Wikipedia existed. FAO and Fishbase do not farm data from Wikipedia. You (and other fishermen on the Atlantic coast of the US) don't call it "spot croaker". Fair enough. But you need to stop insisting that Wikipedia invented that name. Plantdrew (talk) 16:01, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: Ok, This was raising my blood pressure I had to step away for a couple days, Now that I am back. I want to address some issues. You state your reliable source is a International Source that you feel should be made the appropriate source over a local American source that is specific to the Atlantic Ocean / Gulf of Mexico. Here is 1 thing both this article originally agreed with and EVERY other source agrees with this fish the "Spot" fish does not exist in other countries aside from the US & Eastern Shores of Mexico. This fact states that the Authority on this issue should be the local Authority which is the only one who encounters the species. So with this I would state that the authority on this species would be the American Fisheries Society.
See http://fisheries.org/docs/pub_style18.pdf section C.3 
: & http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/f03-143#.VPnou_ldVqk
: & http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8659(1979)108%3C397%3ATSROSL%3E2.0.CO%3B2#.VPnpUfldVqk
: & http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00397816#page-1
: & http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/002209819390255M
: & http://fishbull.noaa.gov/854/oneil.pdf 
: & http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3277546?sid=21105553104061&uid=3739776&uid=4&uid=3739256&uid=2 (includes new species of the spot)
: & http://www.jbc.org/content/251/7/1871.short
: & http://repositories.tdl.org/tamug-ir/handle/1969.3/19276 (predates FOA listing in 1996)
: 
The following articles ALL predate FOA listing as "croaker, spot" which I may add every other species they named croaker, was not done the same on wiki they named the entire drum family croaker,
: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022098189900154 (1989)
: http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/f83-189#.VPnsm_ldVqk (cite Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences, 1983, 40(10): 1633-1638, 10.1139/f83-189 1983)
: http://dmd.aspetjournals.org/content/16/5/659.short (1988)
: http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/08923979109019707 (1991)
: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8659%281964%2993%5B396%3ACEOSLX%5D2.0.CO%3B2?journalCode=utaf20#.VPntZPldVqk (1964)
: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-8649.1991.tb04383.x/abstract (1991)
: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/014111369290106V (1992) 
I can keep going but really what is the point? if nothing else these are great sources for building an accurate article.
Cheatspace (talk) 18:12, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response to Reliable Sources 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified