Wikipedia talk:Romanian Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 8

message: Would appreciate some help with others in updating and expanding the page on Minister of Justice Monica Macovei.  I believe that her work as Justice Minister should come first on the page.  However, there appears to be a contradictory opinion that the parliamentary vote of no-confidence, a list media criticism against her, and her academic background should come first.  Regardless, this is a biography that could use much work.MIsterMan 21:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monica Macovei 

message: As an online discussion involving User:Dahn touches subjects related to Ro.Wikipedia, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Anti-semitism equals one. Dpotop 15:40, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dptop, why not ask admins there what the incidence of antisemitic edits is? Dahn 15:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dahn, why not editing that text to remove its antisemitism? If you don't care about editing it, then don't drive us mad here about it. Ask for its deletion on meta, somewhere else, not here! Don't you see your comments are irrelevant in this thread? Dpotop 15:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dpotop, this thread is irrelevant. All your comments in it are irrelevant. I only approached the matter to ask what was being done about the bigger problem, and not about the alleged smaller problem. Your basic defense is that you are allowed to comment anything on anyone, yet you attack me for expressing an opinion about a clear, widespread, and persistent problem that happens to be connected with this issue. Instead, you troll, insult, and call for an alliance against me. Have a good tomorrow, Dpotop, i'm simply tired of seeing you embarrassing yourself. Dahn 15:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Relevance is defined by users, not by you. Bye. Dpotop 15:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: User:Dpotop's rule

message: While trying to understand better the problem, I found this posts by Dahn on Vlad's talk page. So, I am a vandal for saying that he cries "Nazi!" when he indeed does (read his replies above). OTOH, he is not infringing on wikipedia rules when saying the version Dpotop was reverting was also partly vandalized (I'm guessing he does not know enough Romanian to notice). Such high civility standards for the others, and so low ones for himself...Dpotop 16:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I mistakenly typed "Dpotop" instead of Khoikhoi. You'll notice it makes sense that way. Dahn 16:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I didn't even understand that part (I didn't know what Dahn meant, about what version was he speaking), as I know Dpotop is a Romanian native speaker, so I've completely disregarded that part... Is there anything I can do to make this pointless argument to stop? The animosity is obvious, so what is the point in pursuing the discussion? My 2c. (I would give even more I can make you stop fighting...) --Vlad|-> 16:08, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Personal attacks vs. personal attacks

message: Just curious. --Thus Spake Anittas 00:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Define Moldavian. :Dc76 01:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Those who are Moldavian, know. --Thus Spake Anittas 12:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, the true Scotsmen ;). Dahn 12:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

text:  By the definition of Voronin, I'm Moldavian, because I eat parjoale (not chiftele), and harbuz (not pepene). Anyway, I do feel Moldavian, even though technically I can only claim a Moldavian ancestry (a full one, however). Dpotop 10:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many of you are Moldavian? 

message: See here. --Thus Spake Anittas 18:28, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks Anittas, and Vintila, and all who supported me. I am now online again, and I posted my position on Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Dpotop_blocked_without_warning_or_explanation. Dpotop 11:00, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dpotop blocked for 48 hours 

message: Aren't we due for a :Category:Romanian Revolution of 1989? Right now, articles that I would classify there are either under :Category:Communist Romania or :Category:History of Romania or possibly even elsewhere. - Jmabel | Talk 02:41, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was thinking about it myself. Dahn 12:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category 

message: Could I ask for someone to take a look at this edit to Culture of Romania (about manele)? I find the term "anti-Balkan activists" very POV, and I doubt whether the cited piece qualifies as a reliable source, but this gets into sensitive cultural territory where native (and native-speaker) judgment would probably be better than mine. - Jmabel | Talk 19:57, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, the first version cites no source. The second one cites a blog. I presume both should be deleted, and replaced with a neutral sourced statement stating that "manele" is a new music genre. Take a look at the Manele article, too. It has no source. :) Dpotop 20:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  If your question concerned the political correctness of the two statements, the second is less good, but it expresses some truth: The fact that a part of intellectuality and population shuns  the "manele" sub-culture. But I don't have sources for this statement. Dpotop 20:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I gotta say, I found manele music painful to listen to -- really did. So OK, maybe I am an elitist?  But "anti-Balkan activist"?  Gimme a break!   Turgidson 20:42, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ninetynine percent of all manele is pure torture to me and I'm neither an elitist, nor an anti-Balkan activist. It's a disgraceful, disgusting, and horrible sound. I refuse to call it music. --Thus Spake Anittas 20:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Native opinion needed 

message: In Literature of Romania,  was a sequence of anonymous edits that amounted to a major removal of names, without any discussion or summary. I'm not knowledgable enough to say what late 20th century authors really belong on this list, but at least some of the names were familiar to me, and I'm surprised to see them removed. I raised this three weeks ago on the article talk page, but got no response. Would someone more knowledgable please weigh in? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 01:10, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Literature of Romania 

message: I need some clarification on that. Plenty of literature even published now, uses "Rumania" and the words derived from in "Rumanian", "Rumanization", etc. in the context of the interwar and ww2 historic periods. In accordance with that, I think there is nothing wrong in using these words in Wikipedia articles that deal with that time, similar to how we use Lwow or Wilno to the Polish period of history of Lviv and Vilnius or how we use Kharkov and Belorussia in the ww2 context to refer to what in the modern context is usually called Kharkiv and Belarus. Historic literature does it for the sake of consistency as it refers to the contemporary documents as sources often. I think we should follow the historian's usage in WP articles as well. However, I occasionally find Rumania replaced by Romania in the articles about the war and interwar history, including by some participants of this board. Please let me know if the term is somehow offensive. Otherwise, please accept its usage to follow what's done in respectable sources or please explain why this cannot be done. Thanks, --Irpen 22:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you are quoting from a book, then there's no problem. If you're not quoting from a book, then you're using a term that is no longer recognizable. There's nothing offensive in writing Rumania. It's just an old fashion name and according to some, obsolete. --Thus Spake Anittas 04:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm with Anittas here. Use "Rumanian" only in quotations. "Rumanization" might have a better claim to being still in use, but we seem to have opted for "Romanianization" and might as well be consistent. - Jmabel | Talk 18:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

text: It's not so much that the term is offensive, but rather that it differs more than "Romania" from the local name "România" (and thus "Romania" tends to always be preferred by Romanians). I don't see the point of using "Rumania" when "Romania" is by far the most common variant in contemporary usage. Plus, the two terms of similar enough that we can use "Rumanian" in quotes but write "Romanian" outside of quotations (this is rather different to, say, Wilno vs Vilnius, which are not instantly recognisable as being the same place). Ronline ✉ 01:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I echo these sentiments. There's nothing offensive about "Roumania" or "Rumania" - indeed, Romanian authors themselves once referred to rumâni. But it's an obsolete variant, so the rule of thumb should be to use Romania in all instances except direct quotations. Biruitorul 16:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Usage of Rumania in certain context

message: It seems to me that between late December 2006 and late February 2007 there were a series of edits to Communist Romania most of which amount to a whitewash. I'm probably not the best one to plunge into this, but I think someone should, and I'm calling this to people's attention. I've made some further comments at Talk:Communist Romania, but I haven't really plunged in, and I'm probably not the best person to work on this. - Jmabel | Talk 18:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Communist Romania

message: I see that, despite my strenuous objections, Systematization is still just a redirect to Urban planning in communist countries, this despite the fact that the word is almost universally used in English-language literature to refer specifically to Ceauşescu's schemes for "systemetizing" villages and sometimes, by extension, his reworking of Romanian cities. It is never used with reference to any other country or era. 
In any case, where, if anywhere, do we now have an article on the "systemetizing" of Romanian villages? I found a perfectly good citation I wanted to add, and I have nowhere to put it! Here's the relevant passage; should be usable as a citation somewhere this is discussed.
In 1988 he started to implement his infamous 'systematization' proframme. This aimed to erase over 7,000 villages (those with fewer than 3,000 inhabitants) and to resettle their former inhabitants in 550 'agro-industrial centres' by the year 2000, ostensibly in order to increase the cultivable area, modernize rural infrastructure and reduce the differences between town and country. Viewed from another angle, however, millions of Romanian, Hungarian and Romany vilagers wre to be bulldozed out of the relatively safe havens provided by their traditional close-knit small communities and herded into soulless 'bugged' apartment blocks, within which their opinioins and axtivities could be more easily monitored by networks of police 'spies' and informers. This aroused fears among Romania's increasingly victimized ethnic minorities. Fortunately, for lack of time and money, the programme had not got very far before Ceaucescu [sic] was overthrown. But it contributed significantly to the growth of inter-ethnic tensions in Transylvania…" - Robert Bideleux and Ian Jeffries, A History of Eastern Europe: Crisis and Change, Routledge, 1998.  hardback,  paper. p. 577.
- Jmabel | Talk 19:13, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I really don't care too much about this topic, but one can always ask himself whether the Urban article is not able to cover the Systematization info as well; and if it's not best to include that info in the Urban article so that all info on the topic can be accessible to the reader. And not to offend anyone, but this topic seems too boring to me. Lately, it seems that people here have taken a special interest in covering Communism. --Thus Spake Anittas 19:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Systematization 

message: This is in reference to Vlachs of Serbia and Vlach language (Serbia). I understand that they call themselves rumâni (as seen, for instance, in this recent news report, which should perhaps make it into one of the articles). However, I take issue with calling their language (probably just a dialect anyway) "Roumanian". This spelling is taken from (at least) two sites:  and . However, two questions then arise. One: could this not be the result of a spelling mistake? Perhaps their English textbooks are simply outdated. (Maybe someone could call them up to confirm.) Two: must we even respect their choice of name in English? In Romanian and Serbian, yes, because those are the official languages of the area they inhabit. But just as, for instance, Romanians don't (except within narrow limits) get to choose what they're called in English, French, German, Spanish, Chinese, etc., I personally think we can safely call the Timoc Vlach's "language" "Romanian" - and this isn't entirely OR either, as it lacks separate ISO recognition. Biruitorul 18:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think they [the Serbian state and perhaps the minority organsations] purposely use "Roumanian" to distinguish themselves from "Romanian". Roumanian also seems to be used as an English translation for "rumâni", in order to maintain a distinction to "români" (Romanians). So, I don't think it's the result of a spelling mistake, but rather a deliberate effort to distinguish the Timok Vlachs to the (Vojvodina) Romanians. Since the name "Roumanian" is used as the official English name by institutions such as the Vlach National Council, I think we should use it on Wikipedia, though it should be explained. Ronline ✉ 12:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I've come to that conclusion in the interim too. I also listened to recordings of them speak, and it's definitely not the Romanian I know (though not being a linguist, I can't say whether it's a dialect or a separate language). Biruitorul 21:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Timok Vlachs

message: Am intervenit în trecut pe forumul ăsta pentru a semnala cazul lui Mauco, cenzor şef pe articole legate de Transnistria în Wikipedia: Transnistria acţiune necesară acum, Duble standarde la Wikipedia. Între timp s-a descoperit că William Mauco avea cel puţin 3 sockpuppets, iar de 6 luni m-am luptat cu mai multe sock-uri ale lui Mauco pentru a păstra NPOV la articole legate de Transnistria, de obicei el era cel care şi-a impus punctul de vedere. Pentru a înţelege modul subtil în care a folosit Mauco sockurile dar şi pentru a ajuta wikipediştii români să înveţe cîte ceva despre modul de funcţionare a Wikipediei, pun mai jos nişte exemple, care fac parte dintr-un studiu de caz la care lucrez actualmente. Cred că este o lectură plăcută. Atît eu cît şi alţi editori români am încasat mai multe blocuri din disputele cu Mauco şi sockurile sale. Intenţionez să cer un "community ban" pentru Mauco, dar poate sînt orbit de patimă personală, ţinînd seama că am avut dispute directe cu el (nu cred că eram departe de un permanent ban). Vă cer şi vouă sfatul dacă asemenea caz merită sau nu community ban, deocamdată Mauco a primit doar 2 luni. De amintit că la precedentele blocuri primite, Mauco le-a fentat prin sockurile sale, dar la vremea aia nu se ştia.
:::Moto: "Checkuser does not lie" (User:Irpen)
===Personages of the show===
#User:William Mauco, puppetmaster, indian origin, coloured skin (sometimes suffered from racism), excellent English language skills, interested in small statelets which want independence, like Montenegro, Transnistria, started contributions in Wikipedia in 9 March 2006 
#User:Pernambuco, active sockpuppet, brazilian, interested in a wide large of unrelated topics, some of them which nobody else really care about (like Brazilian made toy trains), native portuguese speaker, making some grammar and punctuation mistakes in English, little knowledge about Transnistria but willing to learn more, started contributions at Wikipedia in 21 September 2006 
#:Comment: While a succesfull sockpuppet, in the process of creation of Pernambuco some mistakes were done, like using edit summary, words from Wikipedia slang (“redlink”) and Wikipedia abreviations ("rv" instead of "revert") from his first edit.
#User:Ştefan44, sockpuppet, romanian, interested in Romanian-related topics, marginal interest about Transnistria, started contributions in Wikipedia in 4 February 2007 
#:Comment: Creating a sockpuppet with a "Romanian" identity is a good idea for editing disputes about Transnistria, where an ethnic conflict between Romanians and Russians exist, and you want to push a Russian expansionist POV. Your opponents will be most likely of Romanian origin and it will be difficult for them to argue against a "Romanian" sockpuppet.
#User:Kertu3, sockpuppet with small activity, started contributions in Wikipedia in 18 February 2007 
#User:MariusM, opponent, bad guy, edit warrior, black sheep.
===Practical usage of sockpuppets in editing disputes===
#Sockpuppeteer protesting for the fact that sockpuppet was not invited in a formal mediation: At  Request for Mediation at which he was invited, sockpuppeteer was reluctant to accept mediation because at the begining the RFM didn't listed as involved part his sockpuppet, as he explained in this message to User:Khoikhoi, and afterwards, in the mediation discussions, to the mediator User:Flcelloguy. Quote: "Khoi, (...) the editor (User:MariusM) immediately filed a request for mediation. I have some problems with this and would like your advice and that of any others who can give advice: (...) In his mediation request, MariusM provides a very misleading list of "involved parties"; in effect stacking the deck. In the past week, he has been reverted over this by me, you, Mikka, Pernambuco, Tekleni, Int19h. Yet he leaves out you, Mikka, Pernambuco, Tekleni".
#In the same mediation were sockpuppeteer and sockpuppet took both part, accusing others for "Use of sockpuppet to influence outcome of formal mediation in dispute resolution": . According his own words, sockpuppeteer was doing "what every responsible Wikipedia editor would do: Making sure that voting and mediation processes are not circumvented by malicious use of sockpuppet" .
#Sockpuppet strongly denying that he is on his sockpuppeteer side in a formal mediation: I just got into all of this because I moved a revert war to Talk (...) Mister William Mauco was not even involved that day (...) What makes you think that I am on "Mauco side"? 
#Sockpuppet asking sockpuppeteer to be more active: "you should check in more, I just reverted back to restore some excellent edits that you had made, and this man Marius-M deleted them, but he is an edit warrior with a long series of bans, and I dont want to start to fight with him, it is best that you defend your own edits, I am warning you, I dont want to do it for you" . "I have defended your intro compromise with Vecrumbas on Transnistria, but where are you, I saw that you were back two days ago, but I am tired of doing this for you and I dont care about Transnistria, not anymore, there is a man there who calls me a liar ("MArius-M") and even reported me, he wanted to get me blocked, so if you want to fight the battle then come back on wiki-pedia and do it yourself"
#Sockpuppeteeer asking sockpuppet "where are you? (...) defend your own edits!": “Pernambuco, where are you? Your block should have been lifted by now. I want to bring this to your attention: MariusM just undid your edit for the third time. If you don't want to take sides, that is fair. But at least defend your own edits”
#Sockpuppet accusing opponent for poll fraud through sockpuppets: "It is easy to create sockpuppets, and at least three have been made specifically for this page within the past 24 hours. Don't be surprised if MariusM soon proposes another "vote" or "poll" on something so all these new identities can get a chance to cast their votes"
#Sockpuppeteer explaining to his sockpuppet that he trust him as an "outsider with a cool head":. Previously, the sockpuppet just explained to his sockpuppeteer: "No reason for me to get involved again because I see on the talk page of that article that some of you know a lot more about this subject than me. When I have time I want to try to learn about it but meantime please all of you could try to work it out among yourselves"
#Sockpuppeteer explaining to his sockpuppet that in a particular problem the opponent is right (that's excellent! It creates an image of honestity and integrity for sockpuppeteer): "Pernambuco, MariusM is right. The links are there. If you check the source code of the page, it was a Google Ads javascript. Possibly you can't see them because you have javascript turned off in your browser"
#Sockpuppet asking both his sockpuppeteer and the opponent to reach an agreement, meantime deleting a disputed  paragraph with sourced information: "Keep it out until both of you can reach agreement". Explaining afterwards to the opponent: "I did not want to take sides. My edit was the same kind that I used in the other page. I just moved it all. That way, you can agree in the "talk" section. and it will not affect the main page. If you need me to help you decide then I can do it. but I try not to get involved otherwise" 
#Sockpuppeteer making big effort to convince his sockpuppet of the correctness of his position, in the user talk page: Actually, if I may give my side of the story. Regarding the paragraph which you moved: There is still no consensus, and the debate is ongoing in Talk. Someone who is a selfconfessed editwarrior (a user who calls himself "EvilAlex") is now helping MariusM add it back in, so that they can skirt 3RR ... which is a similar tactic that they have used in the past 
#Unrespectfull sockpuppet, naming his sockpuppeteer "hot head": Both of you are hot heads. Chill out. Don't call each other names. That's good, is consolidating the reputation of "neutrality", and nothing is more difficult to fight with in Wikipedia than "neutrality".
#Sockpuppet disagreeing with his sockpuppeteer:, 
#Sockpuppet asking other editors to be careful when they revert his sockpuppeteer, not to revert also his work: When 'Dpotop' did his revert, he also overwrote some of my changes. The things that he point out can be discussed with the person he reverted (Mauco). (...) Please, I ask, When you revert someone, you should be careful to not overwrite the edits of other people that were done in the meantime.
#Sockpupeteer drawing attention to his sockpuppet that he was reverted: Pernambuco, I know that you already said that you don't like to get involved in edit disputes, but you just got reverted even as part of a wholesale rvv done by MariusM. He reverted me (as usual) and in the process, he decided to get rid of your work, too, even though your edit was agreed upon by EvilAlex and not by me (...) That sort of behavior is unacceptable. I don't know if you want to defend my edit, but at least you should defend your own.
#Sockpuppet asking other editors to wait the return of his sockpuppeteer: We should wait for Mauco to come back and respond to this. I already replied to him.
#Sockpuppet mediating dispute between sockpuppeteer and opponent (but reverting in fact only the opponent): Mariusm+mauco: None of you get your sentence. Both of you: Sort it out in talk space .  "Again? Mariusm+mauco: None of you get your sentence. Both of you: Sort it out in talk space" . Also: "mauco and mariusm you need to learn to get along!!!"
#Sockpuppet explaining that both his sockpuppeteer and his opponent are doing wrong things: "you did not revert mauco and he is not just revertng you, but both of you are undoing the work of many other people also, as part of your conflict, so please stop this. I will just have to look at your log and look at his log, and start to whole sale undo both of you from now on, as a lesson" 
#Sockpuppet telling that he will keep an eye on his sockpuppeteer and will revert him if necesarry: "I will keep an eye on both of you from now on, I will certainly also revert Mr William Mauco (...) the wars between you and him are not helping it, it is just making it worse, both of you"
#Sockpuppeteer aknowledging the fact that his sockpuppet never supported him, but still trying to convince him: "I know that in the past, you never wanted to stand up for me or take sides. But at least defend YOUR OWN edit" 
#Sockpuppet criticising sockpuppeteer for not following the agreed rules: "You do not follow it either mr Mauco, but right now it is important all of you need to stop that edit war, and I will keep restoring the article if you all keep doing it" 
#Sockpuppet calling his sockpuppeteer "warrior": "I will not take sides, and I never removed anything (...) I do not agree with your warrior friend Mauco either, but he has more sense in this than you do, I am sorry to say it, but you are acting badly"
#Sockpuppet assuring that he will not ask aproval from his sockpupeteer: "I will never ask Mauco for approval"
#Sockpuppet outlying the necesity of agreement between his sockpuppeteer and opponent: "my position is that you can not close the mediation (...) because I can see that you do not agree with Mauco and that Mauco do not agree with you"
#Sockpuppet characterizing sockpupeteer and opponent as "two fighting bears": "Why are you two always fighting? (...) I see the both of you again, and again, just like everywhere else, you are trading in insults, why? Mariusm, you need to adjust your attitude, you have a wrong understanding of the "assume good faith" and "be civil" rules, and William Mauco, you need to stop provoking this man, he has a short temper, so just ignore him" (see also edit summary) 
#Sockpuppet asking other editor to wait until his blocked sockpuppeteer and the blocked opponent will return: "just wait until the two M´s return, and see what they say" 
#Sockpuppet explaining how bad the opponent is: "I am more concerned with the return of MariusM, it was so peaceful when he was away, and now he shows up, and immediately he edits the page and gets reverted, then he edits again, then he goes to my page and starts accusing me of not using common sense, and here on the page he accuses immediately of "plain fallacies", it is his style, why can he not be like the others, we can all make compromises but not him or it seems". "the troubles only started when you came back from your ban, it was more peaceful here when you were blocked from edited wiki-pedia". "stop this inane edit warring, marius-m" (edit summary) , "the person who is most rude is the MariusM man, he is ignoring all the decisions of other people here on this page"
#Sockpuppet defending the compromise achieved by his sockpuppeteer but dissapointed for sockpuppeteer's lack of willingness to defend that version: "it is also very bad that Vecrumbas and Mauco will not defend their compromise version, where are they both? if they dont do defend it, then I´ll also stop this, and then the whole compromise falls apart"
#Happy sockpuppet because of sockpuppeteer's revival: "today Mauco came "back from the dead" and also new user Pompey64 restored the word"
#Tired sockpuppet, disapointed for lack of support from his sockpuppeteer: "i am tired of trying to help with Moldavian things (...) the people who made their proposals are Mauco and Vecrumbas and now they dont even defend their edits, they want me to do it for them, I dont think I will keep doing that for them"
#Sockpuppet asking his sockpuppeteer to explain proposed changes in talk page first: "why dont you make a proposal and post it here first before you change the main page, thats the way to avoid all the reverts from the usual edit warriors that hate transnistria, I am neutral but I like to see the proposal first and then decide"
#Sockpuppet claiming no knowledge about the protection of a page where his sockpuppeteer edit-warred: "I want to move this: (...) but the page is closed, what can I do"
#Sockpuppet claiming in a discussion where opponent was part, lack of knowledge about a language the opponent was aware that sockpuppeteer has knowledge: , 
#Cooperation between sockpuppets: "The Stefan44 version has the latest info,and it is sourced, and all the other editors also gave their explanations, read the log and do not blank this without discussion Mariusm" (edit summary)
#Sockpuppet teaching Wikipedia policies to both his sockpuppeteer and opponent: "this is about something that Mauco and Mariusm was arguing about six month ago, I just found this policy that I want to share since its so relevant: Exceptional claims require exceptional sources (shortcut: WP:REDFLAG). See also: Wikipedia:Fringe theories"
#Sockpuppet removing information against which he didn't express any reason for removal during months of formal mediation, where both he and sockpuppeteer took part: . At same article removing links allegedly dead, which in fact are not dead 
#Sockpuppet, denying knowledge of the other sockpuppet: "thats not me, I was going to revert you, but kertu3 did it (not me), so I was just watching the two of you" 
#Sockpuppet disscussing with sockpuppeteer about the bad conduct of opponent: "Does anyone know what happened to my edits?", "User:MariusM returned, that was what happened", "I see. That's bad news"
#Sockpuppeteer explaining legitimate use of sockpuppetry and challenging opponent to accuse him of sockpuppetry, after 2 of his sockpuppets were caught being the same person: "I am going to defend Pernambuco (and now you'll say that I am his sockpuppet, too). (...) I am almost going to give Pernambuco an anti-vandal barnstar here, because at least he/she restored the page while you were busy trying to blank the work that took place by lots of people over the past month". Opponent was stupid enough to assume good faith of the sockpuppeteer: "I am not going to say now that you are Pernambuco's sock"
#Sockpuppeteer accusing opponents for "contravention of the most basic Wikipedia principles": "Did anyone stop to look at what Pernambuco was actually doing? I checked the log. He/she didn't introduce anything new, but just kept restoring the page from over-zealous "editing" done in contravention of the most basic Wikipedia principles. I am not in agreement with the methods, but I can understand the motivation" 
#Sockpuppeteer explaining that he didn't edited the page for two weeks, after edit wars between his sockpuppets and opponents: "I was away from this page for nearly two weeks, and when I came back, I checked the History log. The logs speak for themselves: Our "clean" friends have engaged in a lot of blanking, reverting, warring" 
#Sockpuppeteer explaining that his sockpuppets didn't help him, as he haven't edited the article in last 12 days (but his sockpuppets did); explaining also a disagreement with part of the edits of his sockpuppet: "Dude, how can he "be helping me"? The work he protected was not my work. I haven't had a single edit to mainspace in 12 days (...) I notice that Pernambuco supported (and protected) your graveyard edit. (...) I don't agree with it, but at least I play by the rules here
#Sockpuppeteer asking opponent block for edit-warring with 2 of his sockpuppets: "I believe he needs a significant block to understand in the future that edit warring is clearly unacceptable" . Explaining afterwards that he was not part of the conflict and criticising admin decision for small duration of block: "I was NOT part of the conflict. I didn't have a single mainspace edit to this article for 12 days prior to when this started. Also, MariusM sent an email to his fellow Romanian admin-friend who did a bit of wheel warring and reduced the block to a week, in breach of normal 3RR enforcement practice. Which is much too low"
===Hiding evidence===
#Partial deletion of User:Dmcdevit's message regarding the discovery of sockpuppetry, in order to hide the exact names of sockpuppets and the usage of open proxies: 
===Comments===
Vă rog scrieţi comentariile voastre aici.--MariusM 10:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've put a notice at , please post your comments there.--MariusM 22:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mauco - un păpuşar model

message: Vă rog scrieţi comentariile voastre aici.--MariusM 10:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've put a notice at , please post your comments there.--MariusM 22:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: I would like to invite you all to participate in a discussion at this thread regarding bilateral relations between two countries. All articles related to foreign relations between countries are now under the scope of WikiProject Foreign relations, a newly created project. We hope that the discussion will result in a more clean and organized way of explaining such relationships. Thank you. Ed ¿Cómo estás? 18:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bilateral relations discussion

message: I've been having a debate with User:DávidSch over Template:Municipalities and Towns of Harghita County - he wants Hungarian names listed in parentheses, but I'd rather have just Romanian names, for the reasons given below. Please weigh in with your comments, as this issue is bound to crop up on several future templates for other counties.
1. Hungarian is not an official language anywhere in Romania. In 20%+ towns, it has some attributes of an official language, like signage and educational rights, but it's still not official.
2. Precedent isn't binding on Wikipedia, but it can be illustrative. Is there a comparable template that provides two names? If you look, for instance, at the template for Vojvodina, which has six official languages, only Serbian names are given, with other names provided in individual articles.
3. Hungarian names are just a click away, in the articles themselves. Biruitorul 19:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree with Biruitorul. The alternative is overkill, and risks creating a precedent for unmanageable situations. As a side note: I don't know why we use the tricolor for such templates; isn't it more natural to use county heraldry (or, at least, both the county heraldry and the tricolor)? After all, the templates themselves Romania-related only by proxy. I mean, we do not use the tricolor in templates for areas of Bucharest. It is a minor point, but this struck me as unusual. Dahn 19:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you and yes, I'd rather see the county seal there. Biruitorul 20:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Language & navigational templates

message: Could a native speaker please add a Romanian wording to Template:Uselanguage (and then leave a not here, so that we don't have a bunch of people go to do this)? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 06:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How about, "Vă rugăm să nu faceţi contribuţii în limba română la Wikipedia în limba engleză. Contribuţiile dumneavoastră vor fi apreciate la Wikipedia în limba română." Biruitorul 21:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Might I suggest "la Wikipedia în limba engleză" instead of "la Wikipedia englezească" and "Wikipedia în limba română" instead of "Wikipedia românească"? Dahn 21:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. Biruitorul 21:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just a tad repetitive. How about, "Vă rugăm să nu faceţi contribuţii pe româneşte la Wikipedia în limba engleză. Contribuţiile dumneavoastră vor fi apreciate la Wikipedia în limba română." Turgidson 21:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Pe româneşte"? That sounds a bit archaic to me. If we go with your suggestion (which is perfectly acceptable, btw), could we also go with "în româneşte" or "în română"? Dahn 21:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Come to think of it: we could just drop the "limba" in front of all both "engleză" and "română". Unless I'm being too specific ;). Dahn 21:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template:Uselanguage 

message: Guys, I have to brag a bit. If I got this right, this is the first time that a Romanian-related DYK entry leads the bunch and has a picture included. Dahn 22:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Battle of Baia was put in the lead with its picture included, but I am not 100 that the picture represents the Moldavians, so it might actually disqualify. --Thus Spake Anittas 23:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Congratulations. Dahn 23:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: That's a snazzy moustache Mille had!  What next?  How about a DYK entry about Sarmale pe româneşte?  Turgidson 22:11, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't we already...? Dahn 22:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Darn!  Beaten to the punch!  But those sarmale don't look quite the way they should, methinks. The ones here look close but no cigar, either.  Perhaps there is still room to picture the perfect sarma...   Turgidson 22:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't actually know. Call me unpatriotic, but I never liked the dish, and haven't eaten a single sarma in the last 20 years or so. Dahn 22:47, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not unpatriotic, downright treasonous! Biruitorul 03:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't want to forcefully intrude and spoil your amusement, but I support Dahn on this one. I always thought that mămăligă with all the necessary additions (meat, cheese, garlic, etc) is the national dish. Sarmale are just easy to make. You are free to call me regional separatist and traitor to the unity of the nation. :-) Although, now thinking of it, before Columbus... :-) :Dc76 14:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

text:  What?  Meat on mămăligă?  No, that can't be.  Cheese and garlic, yes, also sour cream, maybe eggs.  But why meat?  Unless it's sarmale, of course :)  Turgidson 14:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I meant to say not "on", but as a side dish. Anyway, wahtever :-) :Dc76 15:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know I'm a little slow on the uptake here, but I just have to say I love you guys. :) Yammering about national cuisine as a form of patriotism on your noticeboard--LOL. I myself have never tried sarma...or anything Romanian for that matter. Any recommendations? ;-) K. Lásztocska 01:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: DYK

message: Doesn't Librescu have some Romanian roots? I'm asking because both his surname and his first name seem to be Romanian (used by Romanians). What does Librescu mean? --Thus Spake Anittas 03:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea, but a quick search shows that a Librescu from Iaşi is mentioned in the article on Abraham Goldfaden. Is there any connection there? Turgidson 05:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: As the public TV from Romania says, the guy is ethnic Jewish, born, raised, and educated in Romania. He emigrated to Israel in the 70s after some Israeli president or prime minister (Begin?) put a word for him. He went to the USA a few years later, and taught something at VirginiaTech until 2 days ago. For this info, you can cite all Romanian newspapers. As for the name... well... :) I presume we will have to wait for the next Romania Mare if you look for something else. :):) Dpotop 18:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Liviu Librescu]] 

message: Sorry to bother you, just wanted to point out that the article about the Treaty of Trianon doesn´t respect Wikipedia´s neutrality policy. It represents the point of view of Hungarian revisionists. This is perhaps not corrected because one of the administrators of Wikipedia (Hungarian patriot...) is vigilating the article, and instead of correcting the mistakes, she just wants the "weasel words" sign to be removed. I´m new to Wikipedia, but the concept of "encyclopedia" is quite clear to me. 
: Yes, the article needs lots of work. Most POV parts are pro-Hungarian, but I have also found some that I would label as Romanian POV. There's also a slavic influence. :) Dpotop 18:02, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Username_policy#Changing_your_username. Dpotop 18:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trianon  

message: Of Battle of Romania (1944) to Iassy-Kishinev Offensive here. Comments appreciated.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed renaming 

message: I've just uploaded :Commons:Image:Bucharest - old synagogue relief.jpg. Does anyone know more about this building near Piaţa Amzei? I'm guessing (but only guessing, from this relief) that it is a former synagogue; I'd appreciate knowing whether I'm right, but also anything else about the building (or the inscription: I don't read Hebrew. Is it the Ten Commandments?). - Jmabel | Talk 22:29, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't that the "Iesua Tova" Sinagogue, the oldest in Bucharest? And I'm practically sure it's functioning. Dpotop 06:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, those are the Ten Commandments. Biruitorul 22:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wow, I had no idea it was a functioning synagogue! Thanks! I'll caption accordingly. - Jmabel | Talk 22:06, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  According to this source, the Iesua Tova Synagogue was built in 1827, and is located on Take Ionescu Street. (The 4 other synagogues listed there are all newer.)  According to this source, the actual spelling is "Ieşua Tova", which makes more sense to me;  an alternate name is "Sinagoga Podul Mogoşoaiei".  Also, the address is listed as 9, Take Ionescu Street. Turgidson 02:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  Here is more on the history of the "Yeshua Tova" Synagogue, together with a pic confirming 100% Dpotop conjecture!  Turgidson 02:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You guys mistake Wikipedia and maths. My edit was no conjecture. I am from Bucharest, therefore I know that. Don't need a proof for it. :) Neither should you, were you Bucharesters. Dpotop 06:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hey, hey, hey!  As a kid, I was walking by that place every day -- in all likelihood before you were born.  The street was called Mendeleev street, and I think the synagogue was on the left side, walking from Piaţa Amzei to Piaţa Romană -- please do correct me if I'm wrong.  Your comment jolted my memory, but I still needed "proof", to be 100% sure.  At any rate, I put a stub here, see what you guys think.  Turgidson 12:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's on the left as you go from Amzei to the boulevard, right in face of "Gradinita" (the current McDonald's). And I'd put a bet it was not called Mendeleev. That's another street. But I can't remember the old name right now. BTW, how old are you? You should be at least 40 to make the previous statement. Dpotop 14:20, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Another good conjecture! But hey, I'm not Methuselah. :)  And thanks for the correction -- after looking at Google Earth, I see that Mendeleev Street is still there, but Take Ionescu is simply the street going perpendicular to it, right from Piaţa Amzei to Magheru Boulevard.  What was the old name of this street?  — Turgidson 14:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another photo question 

message: I suspect that Răşinari deserves more of an article, but I don't really know enough to write it. In any event, I've uploaded a bunch of 2002 photos at Commons:Category:Răşinari and Commons:Category:Sibiu-Răşinari tram. I also suspect that there are literally hundreds of Romanian towns and villages that deserve a comparable set of photos: when you go to the countryside, bring that camera! - Jmabel | Talk 22:11, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Allow me to note: those sure are beautiful pictures (well, maybe not the troiţa one, but that's just because I dislike troiţe). Congrats. Dahn 22:48, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any chance you have an allergy to garlic? Dpotop 07:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Only to really tacky garlic. Dahn 17:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Răşinari]] 

message: Sorry to be coming here with so much stuff lately, but I've been uploading a lot of my old photos.
The following are some pictures I took 5-1/2 years ago at the Museum of the Romanian Peasant. They have a page that is at least somewhat related to this, but nothing that accounts for some of these artifacts. I suspect that there are some traditions here that deserve articles (for which these can function as illustrations). I also suspect that there is at least one relevant category to introduce on Commons to cover these. Does someone know more about this? Do relevant articles already exist? - Jmabel | Talk 06:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Masks, animals, and the holiday season 

message: La Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Transnistria puteţi vedea rezultatul arbitrării legate de Transnistria. Principala constatare a comitetului de arbitraj a fost că există la Wikipedia o campanie profesionistă de dezinformare din partea unor forţe simpatizante ale regimului separatist din Transnistria. 3 Wikipedişti - păpuşarii propagandişti ai regimului de la Tiraspol Mauco şi MarkStreet, cît şi EvilAlex, un moldovean din Tighina care li s-a împotrivit, au fost pedepsiţi cu interzicere de a edita pe teme legate de Transnistria. Personal am scăpat fără nici o observaţie, deşi 3 admini (un checkuser printre ei) au cerut comisiei de arbitraj permanenta mea banare, demersul eşuînd lamentabil. N-am fost totuşi departe de banare, la un moment dat 7 arbitri susţineau banarea mea pe motiv că aş fi "single purpose account" implicat în editare tendenţioasă. Am izbutit să le schimb opinia unora dintre ei trimiţîndu-le e-mail direct în care le-am atras atenţia că în întreaga pagină de dovezi a cazului de arbitrare nu există nici un DIFF care să arate vreo editare tendenţioasă din partea mea. Abia atunci şi-au dat seama că într-adevăr nu există dovezi contra mea sub formă de editări (DIFFuri) făcute de mine, ci doar bîrfe despre mine ale unor terţe persoane. Sfatul meu pentru cei implicaţi în viitoare cazuri de arbitrare este să nu neglijeze posibilitatea de a scrie direct e-mailuri arbitrilor, aceştia n-au timp să studieze în amănunt ceea ce e scris în paginile arbitrării, trebuie să li se atragă atenţia în privat asupra problemelor principale. După începerea arbitrării, pentru a se obţine banarea mea, s-au fabricat dovezi contra mea. De pildă, un admin m-a blocat pentru edit-war deşi în ziua respectivă avusesem doar o editare la articolul Transnistria şi 11 editări pe pagina de discuţii. Apoi acea blocare a fost raportată arbitrilor ca dovadă a răului meu comportament. În altă zi alt admin a raportat în cazul de arbitrare că articolul Transnistria e "unmanagable" datorită edit-warului, insinuînd că aş fi implicat în asta, deşi în ziua respectivă nu avusesem nici o editare la acel articol. Cei doi admini despre care vorbeam s-au implicat şi în ştergerea unui sandbox din spaţiul meu personal de utilizator (unul a propus ştergerea, altul a aceptat-o, contrar părerii majorităţii celor participanţi la dezbatere), apoi respectivul sandbox a fost prezentat la arbitrare ca exemplu de abuz al meu, de folosire a spaţiului de utilizator pentru propagandă politică (cel care mi-a şters sandboxul îşi foloseşte şi el spaţiul la propagandă politică, punînd acolo fotografii şi citate din Lenin şi Che Guevara). Alt wikipedist, neadmin dar cu vechi contribuţii (din ianuarie 2003), a cerut banarea mea pe motiv de atacuri personale pe care nu le făcusem. Vorba italianului: "tot ce nu mă omoară mă întăreşte".
E bine că există o recunoaştere oficială a campaniei propagandiste profesioniste a regimului de la Tiraspol aici la Wikipedia, e mare păcat că EvilAlex a fost banat, nici în cazul lui n-am văzut vreo editare tendenţioasă. EvilAlex e un wikipedist foarte bine informat în probleme de Transnistria, fiind născut la Tighina (oraş sub ocupaţie transnistreană) şi avînd şi acum familia acolo, deasemeni fiind vorbitor nativ de rusă a fost de ajutor de multe ori cînd era vorba de comparat surse în limba rusă (pe care eu nu le pot verifica). Cred că banarea lui EvilAlex se datorează unei dorinţe a arbitrilor de a păstra o aparenţă de "neutralitate" (deşi sînt situaţii cînd adevărul nu e la mijloc) şi lipsei sale de activitate în a-şi apăra poziţia în cursul arbitrării. Cred că dacă EvilAlex nu s-ar fi manifestat foarte zgomotos în susţinerea mea nici n-ar fi fost implicat în cazul de arbitrare.
Mulţumesc tuturor celor care în cursul arbitrării m-au susţinut, toţi aceştia utilizatori simpli, nici un admin.--MariusM 00:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Mda. Disputele impotriva rusilor sunt intotdeauna dificile, dat fiind ca acestia au admini (Khoikhoi sau Mikka, de exemplu) care nu se sfiesc sa isi apere camarazii impotriva oricarei logici sau bun simt, si chiar sa intervina ca admini pe pagini unde editeaza. Adminii romani se simt intotdeauna obligati sa respecte "a la lettre" toate recomandarile, si nu intervin in dispute care le-ar "strica imaginea". C'est la vie. Dpotop 06:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Pentru EvilAlex, solutia este sa editeze prin intermediul tau sau al meu: Cand are surse, lasa un mesaj pe pagina de talk, si unul din noi adauga informatia. Dpotop 06:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Asa cum spui tu, adminii romani se simt obligati sa-si arate o imagina cat mai prefesionala si political-correct in afara. Mai din contra, cred inca ca incerca sa ia partea din opozitia noastra ca sa dovedeasca ca sunt obiectivi. Ironia mare este ca acesti admini au fost facuti admini cu initiativa lui cel mai mare vagabond roman de pe Wiki si cu sprijinul cominitatii romane. Eu sincer nu cer favoruri de la ei sau sa arate vreun fel de loialitate fata de noi, pentru ca nu-mi plac chestii din astea, dar din An in Pasti ar mai fi frumos ca si ei sa-ti mai ureze sanatate sau poate sa fie mai amabili cu membrii care lucreaza la topicuri despre Romania. Poate ca dupa ideia lor, a fi profesionist e sa fii un sofist total si de loc prietenos. Dupa parerea mea, asta este o cale gresita, dar in fine. Cand ai de aface cu un 'Level-5' care face totul posibil ca sa te simti ca cel mai dobitoc om de pe lume, te mai intrebi ce rost mai are sa tii la acest popor, ca totdeanua si-a dat in cap. --Thus Spake Anittas 21:14, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

text: A se vedea hotărîrea arbitrării, lui EvilAlex (cît şi celorlalţi) le este interzisă orice contribuţie legată de Transnistria, inclusiv în pagini de discuţii ale altor utilizatori. Se pare că asta e noua modă la comitetul de arbitrare, prin "topic ban" se includ şi pagini de discuţii ale altor utilizatori. Precizez că Khoikhoi şi Mikka nu fac parte dintre adminii care au cerut banarea mea, alţi trei admini au făcut asta - a se vedea paginile cazului de arbitrare. Khoikhoi i-a luat apărarea lui Mauco, fără însă să ceară pedepse pentru alţii.--MariusM 20:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Am pierdud un text din prostie din cauza edit conflict, asa ca o sa fiu mai scurt.Felicitari, Marius, pentru eforturile tale. Cu adevarat ai scapat acest topic de razboi infinit. Alex poate inca edita pe teme legate de Moldova care nu fac parte din categoria Transnistria. Si poate de asemenea edita in Wikipedia romana. Sper ca in timp sa mai apara si alti editori, lumea e mare. Cu verificarea surselor in rusa, o sa incerc sa ajut eu. In fine, inca o data, bravo lui Marius. :Dc76 21:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitrare Transnistria - soluţie finală

message: List can be found at :Commons:Message templates/todo-big. - 69.17.114.183 05:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The link leads nowhere. Can you please check where the error occurred? Dahn 06:13, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help needed translating some messages into Romanian 

message: Now would be as good a time as any to come up with a "Climate of Romania"/"Climate of Bucharest" article, on the Climate of Florida/Climate of Bismarck, North Dakota model. Biruitorul 02:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've got an immense geographical monograph of Romania. The only problem is that it is was completed during Gheorghiu-Dej, so there is little there that would still be reliable... Dahn 03:46, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  A bit of googling yields this table, which says that the max temperature in Bucharest in July and August is 28°C.  On the other hand, the icon on the left says today's temperature in Bucharest was 39°C.  Hmmm... what should one make of this?  Turgidson 04:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Any climatologists here?

message: I have created a new category; please help populate.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  11:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Polish-Romanian relations]] 

message: Perhaps our Romanian colleagues would be interested in joining this project?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Eastern European Wikipedians' notice board]] 

message: I have two questions related to this category, that are not related to one another:
# Is it normal that Category:Scythia is a sub-category?
# Is it normal that the entire Category:Austria-Hungary is a sub-category?
With the exception of the previous two problems, inclusion in the category seems OK to me. However, should we not create a "related" category on the "History of Romanians" or "History of Eastern Romance people" to cover what is traditionally called "Istoria Romanilor"? Dpotop 18:30, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There was no answer for one day. I removed the 2 sub-categories mentioned above. Dpotop 19:33, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category:History of Romania