Talk:Defense industry of Iran/Archive 1

message: Under the Shah of Iran Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, Iran's defense industry was limited to assembling small arms under license. Most of its weapons were imported from the United States and Europe. Between 1971 and 1975, the Shah went on a buying spree, ordering $8 billion in weapons from the United States alone. This alarmed the United States Congress, which strengthened a 1968 law on arms exports in 1976 and renamed it the Arms Export Control Act. Still, the United States continued to sell large amounts of weapons to Iran until the 1979 Islamic Revolution. 
In 1980, Iraq invaded Iran. The United States, in an effort to help Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, put an arms embargo on Iran, froze its foreign assets, refused to deliver purchased weapons, and forbade U.S. firms to do business with Iran. 
Iran found itself severely isolated and lacking the technological expertise to make even rifles.  In response, Iranian scientists joined to launch Iran's defense industry. Within a year, Iran was able to develop RPG-7s, rifles, and other military equipment.
As of 2006, Iran is close to becoming militarily self-sufficient , one of only a few such nations.  In 1999, Iran's army became completely self-sufficient, and some years later the Air Force and the Navy followed suit. Iran now develops frigates, submarines, tanks, jet fighters, ballistic missiles, and other arms and military gear.  
Yes, there is clearly an issue here that needs resolving. Well said Megapixie. 
*someone outline the disputed material:
I think the whole discussion revolves around this- Armanjan thinks everything before the 1979 Iranian revolution was bad and evil (you can deduct this from his numerous posts and statements on talk pages). Concequently even if the pre-revolutionary Iranian government did something good, ArmanJan sees it as his mission to tarnish it or remove the 'fact' from history. As for me, I just want to get the facts straight- they might end up in Armanjan's favor, but I sincerely doubt that. 
* Taking it apart:
Till now, you'll find the sources that I am using are, strangely, mostly the same sources as ArmanJan. The only diference is that when using those source I have been taking everything that is said in them into account as opposed to a single statement to prove my points.
Now this issues one by one:
**Before '79 Iran was limited to assembly work only, and only on light weapons.
Please read: 
Sections: 1975, Before 1979, February 1979
This is a source that both arman and I have used - so we have to assume that it is a good source. 
Please read: . This is a source Armanjan had introduced himself, so it must be ok. However this source goes on to claim Iran was assembling aircraft, tanks, etc. etc. Althought- even though it hurts my own argument (just to be fair) it's a bad source.
However, on the same note if you read  which IS from a good source (US Director of National Intelligence - government website)  which ArmanJan was using, on the top of page 3 you'll see:
Iran’s modern defense industrial base was developed during the period of the Shah by an
import substitution strategy, in which Iran would learn to produce, assemble, repair and
maintain military equipment. The United States and the UK were principal suppliers of
aircraft, armor, and small arms. Beginning in the mid-1970’s, Iran signed co-production
agreements for licensed manufacture of aircraft, helicopters, surface-to-air missiles, and
computer and electro-optic equipment.9 Four state-owned organizations constituted the
main elements of the defense industrial base. The Military Industries Organization (MIO)
was the main control center, and also produced small arms, rockets, mortars, and artillery.
The Iran Aircraft Industries (IAI) focused on fighters, the Iran Helicopter Industries (IHI)
on helicopters, and the Iran Electronics Industry (IEI) on defense electronics.'''
This entire section was ignored by him. 
**Iranian government wanted to develop its own weapons in the long run (pre revolution)
Please read: 
Sections: 1974, 1975, November 1976, 8 July 1977, 18 July 1977, 1978, July 1978, September 1978, December 1978, Before 1979.
Read this also: 
**Iran found itself severely isolated and lacking the technological expertise to make even rifles
just a little contradictory when compared to everything else in the article. Perhaps it was because all the engineers left with the revolution? Furthermore, if that is the case why does Iran still produce G-3 rifles and MP5s... most probably using the same facilities when these rifles were standard army issue prior to 1979.
**Current level of self sufficency.
Well, there are two sources from different dates that claim diferent things. They chronologically dont make sense. Thus it's questionable to just declare that iran is self sufficent. Anyhow, it sounds like one of those propagandist things one hears all the time in Iran...
This source:  which IS from a good source (US Director of National Intelligence - government website) :
In spite of Iran’s claims of self-sufficiency, some foreign experts believe that Iran lacks
the industrial or technical capability to do “much more than enhance or splice foreign–
designed weapons systems.”27 As a result, Iran still has significant foreign dependencies
in its armament process. In 1995, Iran contracted with India to provide specialists to
upgrade and maintain its Russian-provided armaments.28 In 1999 Iran also contracted
with China to upgrade Iran’s Fl-10 anti-ship cruise missile.29'''
Just for the record, there is also little mention of foreign asistance in Irans dive for military self sufficency. Tototom 15:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay - there's a lot of stuff to go through there - give me a little time. I have to say though on the surface though you both seem to agree on a lot of the material - which is a good start. I'm sure we can come up with something that everyone is satisfied with. Megapixie 01:32, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: QUOTE History ArmanJan

message: I've changed the lead sentence ("Iran is one of only few [sic] countries that can claim to have reached almost complete self-sufficieny [sic] in all military fields") because it is directly contradicted by the cited source, which says:
:In spite of Iran’s claims of self-sufficiency, some foreign experts believe that Iran lacks the industrial or technical capability to do “much more than enhance or splice foreign– designed weapons systems.”27 As a result, Iran still has significant foreign dependencies in its armament process. 
I understand that the issue of Iranian military industrial self-sufficiency has yet to be settled, but outright contradictions shouldn't stand while discussion goes on. I've replaced the lead with a sentence that (I hope) everyone can agree is true; now we can discuss how to amplify the point. PRRfan 20:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead sentence is not supported by its citation