Talk:Greco-Roman mysteries/Archive 1

message: I think these are a bit controversial; needs work. --Sam
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I would challenge the (no longer practised) list. At least the cult of Mithras is still going, unbroken. And I wouldn't be suprised if there weren't at the very least revivals of the Isis-cult. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 14:54 24 Jul 2003 (UTC)
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I would not challenge the (no longer practised) list regarding
the late-classical cults of Mithras and Isis.  The problem is, while
cults existing today might claim to be continuations of
the ancient cults and to present their ancient mysteries,
on the strength of the evidence available to us, these claims
are not expecially plausible.
I think it would be easier to substantiate the genuine resucitation
of a cult that was not a mystery religion.
:I agree. All revived religious cults are most properly defined with a Neo- as in Zoroastrianism and Neo-Zoroastrianism. --Wetman 17:12, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I added the Yezidi religion because it seems a good example of one.  Especially when compared to things like Wicca, Hermeticism, and Thelema being on the list.  These three can be easily found online, with an abundance of online teachers..  Unlike Yezidi, which is not available to outsiders.  - random internet person, Kempis
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"Religions taught at different times and parts of the world through Esoteric Schools of Thought (see Category) aiming preparing a larger number of individuals toward spiritual Inititation. It almost always deals with some system of esoteric cosmology." (category desc as originally created by Wikipedia users, including myself)
Mystery religions are related to philosophies/teachings in esoterism/occultism, either ancient in earlier civilizations (as listed at the end of the article Mystery religion) or more recent ones derived from esoteric knowledge  taught at earlier Mystery religions. They contain some common teachings as rebirth, esoteric cosmology, occult history of human evolution (as Epochs based on ancient destroyed Continents, including Atlantis), planes of existence, and Initiation into those same planes or inner worlds.
Both Mormonism and Scientology are recent religious movements which contain none of these teachings as taught in esoteric knowledge, they are neither related to earlier ones, neither a development on those same basis: so please do not add them to this category with which it as not even close relation: that would be desinformation and publicity); and please understand that it is not my function here to say, or to analyse indepth, what these movements may be. Regards, --GalaazV 19:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, from my point of view, that would also be fine; the secret wisdom, as I am able to understand, does not impose to anyone to believe it as a fact, even less in the case of someone not acquainted to it; but, rather, it asks to be understood according to the discretion of those who are able to look into it. So, "a claim" is perhaps the most correct way of expression from those who are not acquainted to it, the majority of us at these times. --GalaazV 19:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually meant it in the sense of " they claim to have a secret wisdom/teaching." Not "they are claiming that Elvis lives."  I was thinking some societies may be/have been so secretive they may not even want people to know they have secrets, and hence deny having (claim no) secrets/secret teachings even if they do. Perhaps "claim" was a bad word choice. --DanielCD 02:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mystery religion vs. new religious movements 

message: Why isn't Wicca included in this list?  I've talked to many Wiccans, and nearly all of them agree that there are things that can 'only be told to Initiates', which seems to suggest it is a mystery religion.Perchta 07:20, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's more of a New Age thing. I believe this article is for the ancient mystery religions. --DanielCD 14:06, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Plus "Wicca" as a term describes a whole range of religious practices. Admittedly practitioners debate how wide that definition should be. However, due to the lack of single vision in what Wicca is exactly, it isn’t in of itself a mystery religion. I suppose that a paragraph could be included to say that Wicca can take the form of a mystery religion. Briar Patch Wabbit 13:26, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  where's Wicca? 

message: I can't see how it is esoteric. I removed it, my edit was reverted, and the above explanation doesn't explain it enough. I'm not gonna start an edit war. Perhaps it should be discussed on the Mormonism talk page.-- The ikiroid  18:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think User:WilliamThweatt was right in reverting it. The LDS concept of secret (or "sacred, not secret") knowledge that can only be received in the temple by members who have proved themselves faithful, that is needed to progress in the afterlife, falls very closely in line with similar practices in ancient systems (Isis, Mithras, Gnostics, etc.) that define mystery religions. That secret knowledge is the "mystery" that defines a "mystery religion". - Reaverdrop (talk/nl/wp:space) 23:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mormonism ain't esoteric 

message: I don't see how mainstream Christiany(such as Roman Catholicis) isn't a mystery religion considering the Eucharist.  The Eucharist seems to be some sort of initiation into secret knowledge. Anyone? --216.211.72.23 05:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mainstream Christianity not a mystery religion(s)? 

message: The Eucharist has sometimes been authentically psychoactive, and has sometimes been a placebo.  Use of a psychoactive sacred meal is essential to mystery religions.  A mystery religion without a psychoactive sacred meal would be ersatz, imitation, a placebo, inauthentic.  What do you call it when a religion originally uses a psychoactive sacred meal, and develops a liturgical practice around that, and then replaces the psychoactive sacred meal by a placebo non-psychoactive substitute, while retaining the exterior shape of the liturgical practice?  It would amount to an inert, de-activated, derivative version of a mystery religion.
The New Testament version of Christianity was shaped on the principle of using group psychoactive experiencing to support an alternative social-political system.  http://www.egodeath.com/NTKingOnCrossInRomanEmpire.htm
This article ought to have Pleket's finding that in Asia Minor, the Emperor, his family, and Roma were plugged into the mystery-religion format, with 'mixed wine' and sacred meals, resulting in an authentic ancient mystery religion themed around Ruler Cult and Pax Romana -- inspiring the creation of the New Testament version of Christianity, as a rebuttal and alternative use of the group psychoactive experience to support an alternative social-political configuration.  
Pleket, H. W. “An Aspect of the Emperor Cult: Imperial Mysteries.” Harvard Theological Review 58:331-47 (1965).  Philip Harland carries on Pleket's work on ancient mystery-religion variants, and religious 'mixed-wine' drinking clubs - http://www.philipharland.com/topics.html.
-- MichaelSHoffman 03:45, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mystery Religions = psychoactive sacred meals 

message: Why is Gnosticism listed in both the 'list of current mystery religions' and the 'list of mystery religions no longer practised'? There should be something there to explain how ancient Gnosticism differs from modern Gnosticism, because otherwise the list is just misleading.--Stevefarrell 00:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gnosticism 

message: Are there any sources for the definition of mystery religion or that anybody other than us calls any of these religions mystery religions?  My only knowledge of the term is as a technical term applied to cults that worshipped certain gods in the ancient world and into which one had to be initiated. JChap2007 02:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: =Sources

message: Should it be included as a current mystery religion? Though personally i doubt it ever was, no matter how much they kick and scream about it...lol 124.82.12.158 15:11, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scientology? 

message: I deleted the unsourced and completely indefensible claim that Wicca is the most prominent contemporary Mystery Religion. It's not even a candidate for flagging as "citation needed" since it is demonstrably untrue. Also, Manly Hall is not a reliable source on Greek History -- could someone do better? Yonderboy (talk) 02:58, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Hogwash

message: The expressions school of Christ and mysteries of Christ are used in the Christian Church as a kind of analogy to some of the ancient mystery religions. It would be interesting to find links between historic initiations in Christianity and some of the basic foundations of the mystery religions. ADM (talk) 16:14, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: School of Christ and Mysteries of Christ

message: :Category:Mystery religions is itself a category within :Category:Christ Myth. — Robert Greer (talk) 02:09, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It shouldn't be. That hierarchy implies that mystery religions are a sub-topic of Christianity, which is clearly untrue--the Eleusinian Mysteries may have contributed to Christianity, but they aren't part of Christianity. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:26, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Christ Myth]] ''vs.'' [[:Category:Mystery religions]] 

message: I don't quite see why mystery religion had to be moved to Greco-Roman mysteries just because somebody managed to show that "Wicca has been described as a mystery religion". We have a redirect called Western mystery tradition, and we can just link to that for disambiguation purposes. Explicit "Greco-Roman mysteries" is a valid term, it gets like 50 hits on google books, but "mystery religion", "mystery cult" or simply "mysteries" is by far the more common term. I do not see any real reason to disambiguate. --dab (𒁳) 13:36, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: the move

message: I'm not familiar with this topic but does this article have any worth? It could possibly merged here but it just looks like promotional OR to me. The singular form "Mystery school" already redirects here so I've redirected the plural Mystery schools here too for now. If someone wants to merge this content be my guest. -- œ™ 20:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Mystery schools]] 

message: A discussion relevant to this page is at Talk:Mysterium (Scriabin)#Requested move. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 22:20, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambiguation of "Mysterium"

message: This statement seems a little misleading to me: "Although Early Christianity was not a mystery religion, its central theology and ritual  being available, and indeed actively preached, to the uninitiated". The fact that what we understand to be the "Liturgy of the Word" and "Liturgy of the Eucharist" were originally actually the "Liturgy of the Catechumens" and the "Liturgy of the Faithful" is precisely because the uninitiated (and even those who were initiated but not in good standing) were not allowed to be present during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Liturgy of John Chrysostom explicitly commands "all catechumens depart; let no catechumen remain" when the Liturgy of the Eucharist begins. As such, it is quite clear that in ancient times that the "central... ritual" was not "being available... to the uninitiated". Deusveritasest (talk) 01:29, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Availability of Christian ritual 

message: I was assigned a research paper in my comparative religion class, which led me to this page. These kinds of faiths seem to show up every few hundred years, so why does the generic search term "mystery religions" redirect to something specific to one part of the world? Doesn't this violate NPOV? 24.145.157.81 (talk) 15:48, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mystery religions throughout history