Talk:Kent State shootings/Archive 1

message: I read this page recently and learned a lot. So I looked up more about it, and found several inaccuracies, and some parts that were POV. So I made a dozen changes over a couple of days. In some places I corrected information (e.g. moving the downtown violence from May 3 to May 2.) In others, I corrected grammatical errors, such as comma placement. In others, I removed POV (e.g. removing words like "viscously", or rewording "agreed that some decisive action was necessary".) But most of what I did was add good information. I did a lot of research, and added a "Lead-up to the tragedy" section, a "May 1" section, and additional paraphraphs throughout. 
So I was quite dismayed and saddened to see that User:Daniel Quinlan had reverted all of my changes, claiming "too much POV to edit piecemeal".  This was rude, and it hurt the article. If there are specific parts of the article you disagree with, offer suggestions to improve them. But don't make wholesale reversions of people's hard work.
I'm reverting back for this reason, but I invite discussion as to what parts are problematic. – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 13:52, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)
:FWIW, I looked at what had been removed by the earlier reversion and was surprised that a full reversion was done.  The content appeared well-intentioned and the writing seemed OK overall. There should have been either specific corrections or at least a discussion of the changes.  --Beirne 15:44, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)
:The added background and detail provided by Quadell greatly improved the article, and I believe it should be restored.  I am interested in hearing why Mr. Quinlan wants the changes reverted.  There are a couple loaded terms that could be toned down but overall it's pretty NPOV.  --Alexwcovington (talk) 12:19, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent reversion 

message: * This discussion is really helping to improve the article. Thanks to all participating.
* The additional images really help to bring home the feeling of the event. 
* I don't think "divided the nation along politcal lines" is too POV, but I don't mind it being removed.
* I don't think tragedy is POV, unless you can find any decent-sized group that thinks the shootings were not a tragedy. The campus called it a tragedy, the National Guard called it a tragedy, the press, the president, etc. Calling the election of Nixon a tragedy would be POV. Calling the Asian Tsunami a tragedy would not be. I don't think calling this a tragedy is either.
* I had originally written the paragraph beginning "Promising to end the Vietnam War" to imply causation, and someone re-worded it to simply state the facts (a change I approve of). I think it's now NPOV, but it could use expanding. I don't think we should refrain from giving background information on the events.
* "There were unfounded rumors that revolutionaries were planning to destroy the campus" This is sourced: the external link http://dept.kent.edu/sociology/lewis/lewihen.htm says there were ". . .rumors that radical revolutionaries were in Kent to destroy the city and the university", and Scott Bills's Echoes Through a Decade also mentions them. Both the sources are listed in the article. My personal POV is that Governor Mayor Satrom and Governor Rhodes were completely unjustified in reacting so harshly to the protests, but I added this line in to counteract my POV and state a fact that might help someone understand their positions. I certainly don't mind it being removed. :)
* "not necessarily associated with any of the political machinery at KSU". I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. It was there when I first saw the article. Feel free to remove it.
* "appearance of a war zone". If you prefer, I could quote the opinions of Kent State's history department: "Nearly 1000 Ohio National Guardsmen occupied the campus, making it appear like a military war zone." Or I could quote several contemporary news sources that called it a war zone. It certainly had that appearance, but I could quote other's accounts instead if you so desire.
* "(Actually, Rhodes never did declare the State of Emergency which would have made the May 3rd and 4th protests illegal)" and "The rally may have in fact been legal, since a state of emergency had not been declared, but there was a widespread belief among both the students and the guardsmen that the rally was illegal.; this was not known by either the students or the National Guard at the time.)" This is also sourced: it is backed up by several of the external links and sources, including the Report of the President's Commission on Campus Unrest.
* "wearing gas masks (obscuring their vision and possibly causing heat exhaustion)" - before I got to it, the article said that it did cause heat exhaustion. I added "possibly", since I could find no evidence that it did. As stated near the top of the talk page, the high that day was 66 in nearby Akron, and no sources I have found make the claim that heat exhaustion or limited vision were in effect. I had left the claim in in order to counter-act my own POV (which is that the guard acted with criminal irresponsibility), and I wanted to leave in any claim that might partly exonerate the Guard. But on reflection, I think you're right, Daniel. It's an unsourced claim, mere speculation, and should be removed. 
* The quote from a NYT reporter is an uncontested fact. It's not NPOV to quote someone. 
* The antisemetic stuff was there before. I don't think it adds to the article, and I agree it should be removed.
* The "mythic sense of grief" was there when I got there. Perhaps it could be reworded. What do you suggest?
* The "not only hippies" bit does describe the widespread perception of the events, as described in several of the external links and sources. 
* Daniel, more than half of the problem you have listed with the article were not added by me, but were also present in the version you were reverting to. This is a good example of why wholescale reversion of others' work is an inappropriate way to deal with suspected POV problems. I'm glad you have now listed your objections so that we can work to improve the article.
* Nearly every article on Wikipedia could be improved. You could put an NPOV disclaimer on just about any article, saying it could be made more NPOV, but that's not what the template is for. 
So, are there any other POV problems anyone sees, or have they mostly been dealt with? – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 18:16, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
:The discussion here is very helpful and I think we will end up with a better article.  I'll make one comment for now, though.  Earlier I suggested that sources be cited.  In particular, pointers to the references should appear next to the material in the body of the article.  This is not suggested in the Wikipedia:Cite Sources article as strongly as having references at the end of the document, but by pointing to the references next to the assertions in the document it will help show which items are based on research.  --Beirne 19:44, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
::That's fine, but every sentence should be based on research and supported by the sources. Should every sentence have a footnote? Which ones? – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 23:37, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
:::Good question.  You don't want to clutter up the document too much.  A couple of ideas would be to either write a few sentences at a time from a source or to limit the pointers to lesser-known or more controversial items.--Beirne 00:29, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
::::The easiest way to provide a balance between readability and explicit sourcing is to mention the sources either at the end of each chapter/paragraph, or footnote them and refer to the general sources at the end of the article. See Wikipedia:Footnote3 for more information on the latter method. --Martin Wisse 07:53, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quadell's comments to all the above 

message: Does anyone have a reference for the statement "Many guardsmen later testified that they were in fear for their lives, although the distance of the students at that point makes the claim seem unlikely."?
(That is, a reference for the latter part, which is that the distance makes the claim unlikely.  Note that they could be in danger from the crowd even if the particular students who got hit by bullets were too far away to put them in danger.  Also bear in mind that a student charging at 10 mph can run 70 feet in 5 seconds).
While we're at it, how can the students be throwing rocks *and* unarmed at the same time? Ken Arromdee 05:47, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Eyewitnesses say that there weren't many rocks thrown, and that the throwing was largely symbolic; the distance was so great that there was no chance that any guardsman would have been injured.  You have to see it to believe (I live in Kent and visit the site often) the huge distance the Guard was to where the students were at that moment; at the point the Guard began to shoot the students were mostly very far away, down a hill, and not charging at the Guard at all.  In fact, the students were already beginning to mill around and disperse.  There is a recent documentary film from a couple of years ago (should be in the "Films" section) in which two or three Guardsmen speak, and I think two of them say they felt afraid.  But, still today, none will admit to having fired, and all the guns were thrown in a pile after the shootings so no individual could be held culpable.  Hope this helps at least a little.  I wasn't there in 1970 but a lot of people who live around here were there that day.  Maybe we could ask some of them.  Badagnani 05:58, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference 

message: Can anyone clarify the differneces between the Mayor's (actual) state of emergency and the Governor's (putative) one? Rich   Farmbrough 21:40, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The governor claimed that one was declared, but no one actually had. There's probably an official request that has to be sent up the appropriate channels. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 13:27, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: State of emergency

message: #Why is there a "See also: Town and gown"?  The term isn't really related to the Kent State shooting that I can tell, suggest removed
#The lyrics Students spray the Kent State Mist/Wishing wills missing clientele/Widows sex legged lost and found really don't seem to have anything to do with the article, suggest removed
#The Kent State killings proved a catalyst for the formation of the New Wave rock group Devo, who began as a Kent, Ohio performance art group in the mid-1970s; several members were Kent State University students at this time. seems way too tertiary to be considered relevant enough...it doesn't even claim they were at the protest
#The part about  George Segal's 1978 cast-from-life bronze sculpture Abraham and Isaac definitely needs to mention how the artist drew a parallel between the subjects, and the shooting. deleted from documentary section
#The part about It gave the impression among many observers that Vietnam protesters included not only hippies, but also "decent suburban kids". (Vecchio was a fourteen year old runaway hanging out at campus.) seems POV, we don't need to interpret photo's meanings
#The photograph was distributed around the world and solidified anti-war feelings. is also rather trite, most photographs are distributed around the world - this could be much better worded
#The films listed are not even remotely Artistic Tributes, since they're documentaries, and should fall under the References section, or a section of their own...but not in with artistic tributes
# Several local biker groups were also present. - What the hell?  There were bikers on the same city street as students? the horror!  All kidding aside, this adds/clarifies nothing, and only serves to POV-muddy the waters
#And finally, a question about Many young people, including college students, were frightened of being drafted - I admit I'm very unclear on this, but I thought that during the Vietnam War, the sudden increase in student enrollments was that college/university students could not be drafted?  I remember hearing it referred to derisively as "to protect the politician's children" or something...am I wrong?  Could very well be, would appreciate a Yankee clearing that up
*Sherurcij 05:08, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Just some niggling details

message: The article says "Many students felt that this placed blame for the tragedy on the protesting students and not on the guardsmen." I'm afraid that without a cite, this won't work. Many? Which ones? Was this the prevalent attitude? (Answer: no.) Unless you can point to a reference for "many" students feeling that students were to blame, it needs to be removed. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 13:11, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Many students 

message: "Segal's sculpture is relevant to the article, but not to documentaries about the shooting. It didn't even end up in Kent, but over at Princeton."
-- I think it's relevant that the sculture was designed to commemorate this event. I think the other user who reverted this removal before agress with me. What do others think?
Also, regarding the other removal that I reverted, I didn't think that the text removed was "shilling" -- it simply dscribed the film in slightly more detail, which I think is perfectly harmless and, possibly, useful. Jacqui ★ 00:40, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The sculpture is relevant that it was designed to commemorate the event, and that is already mentioned in the article at An earlier artwork, George Segal's 1978 cast-from-life bronze sculpture Abraham and Isaac, was commissioned for the Kent State campus by a private fund for public art but refused by the university administration. The sculpture was eventually accepted by Princeton University and presently rests in the shadow of the university chapel..  However, a documentary about Segal is not the same as a documentary about the Kent State Shootings Sherurcij 01:00, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Although the film is entitled "George Segal" it focuses primarily on his creation of this sculpture for Kent State.  This sculpture is based on the story of a parent killing his child.  The Kent State administration failed to see the irony in Segal's depiction, as in the biblical story the story did not end in death (as it did at Kent State).  The Kent State administration suggested that Segal change his sculpture to that of a semi-nude adolescent girl putting a flower in the end of a soldier's rifle.  Segal told the administrator, "That's your sculpture; you make it if you want.  I've already made mine."  This film is quite relevant to the Kent State story, and is not just some movie about some sculptor.  I was the one who saw to it that it was added to the May 4 Collection here at Kent State University.  Badagnani 19:08, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Latest edits removing stuff from artistic tributes

message: Will you please stop making such severe cuts in the article.  For example, the iron bell is called the "victory bell" and you just changed it to "bell." Badagnani 09:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well technically it was listed as "the iron victory bell" which is a little wordy, so I figured in the hopes of improving this article, we could remove a couple of adjectives.  If it's called the "Victory bell", then that's fine, though I suggest we put it in quotation marks since a victory bell isn't really something the common reader would recognise. I guess the only things you changed back that I'd dispute are the word "iron" in the bell, and "with bayonets fixed and weapons loaded" which just sounds poorly-written, no offence.Sherurcij 09:41, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Severe content changes 

message: Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 17:24, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Continuing the push to improve

message: *As mentioned Tensions were high throughout the town, especially on campus. There were unfounded rumors that revolutionaries were planning to destroy the campus and the city to tip off a violent political revolution in the United States. is a (bad) reference to a statement by Rhodes, there is no evidence of  any "rumors", and this paragraph adds nothing that I didn't already sumamrize in the May 3rd day, which is when it happened, not the 2nd.
:http://dept.kent.edu/may4/chrono.htm This is one source that gives a slightly different wording for the rumors.  I'm sure each source will give it a slightly different way so it's probably best to consult several, *then* reword.  Badagnani 21:45, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Many of these statements came from these two references:  and . You could probably find them there. Regardless, it should probably be reworded to be more encyclopedic. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 15:52, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Much thanks for the links Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 21:42, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Problems with wholesale reverting

message: Bandagani, is there any reason you keep inserting (sometimes valid, sometimes incorrect) translations from acres to hectares in the article?  It seems that information would be found on acre or hectare if somebody actually wanted to research it, and is not relevant to an article on Kent State shootings?  Plz advise Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 21:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My name is not spelled that way.  As I wrote in my edit summary, I did the calculation, as you should have originally rather than simply delete.  You are correct; I incorrectly reverted the change back to 10 hectares previously but I corrected this error with the correct calculation.  A Google search for "acres to hectares" produces a number of engines that will do this.  The wonders of the Internet!  Good last few edits, by the way.  Badagnani 21:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The question is why we need a conversion to hectares at all, I think - also worth noting that your "source" is something you (as in "The Kent State taskforce") have written, which isn't entirely impartial, and still only says "Rumors of radical activities were widespread", not that there were plans to "tip off a revolution in the United States" which a tad more draconian.  Again, I am removing the statement unless you can provide a source that there was any such rumor.   Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 22:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

text: That's it, the earlier profanity was bad enough but you have now crossed the line to being very rude!  I am not a member of the May 4 Task Force and have never been a member of this group.  I do, however, live in Kent, Ohio and know many people who are very knowledgeable about the event, having been there before, during, and after.  BTW I asked you to locate other sources before deleting (i.e. books and contemporary newspaper accounts); are you willing to do so or do I have to do that for you?  Badagnani 22:35, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not my role to find sources for what I don't believe happened, so no, if you want to claim that there were rumors that the student body wanted to overthrow the government by tipping off a violent cross-country revolution...you are going to have to find sources confirming that, otherwise I assume the statement is just 'generous extrapolation' of Rhodes' comments. I apologise if I misunderstood your role at the University, I was working off your earlier comments like  I was the one who saw to it that it was added to the May 4 Collection here at Kent State University. which implied you were a student/faculty at the Uni, and involved in the May 4th arrangements Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 22:42, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

text: You are correct, I am student and faculty here, in the field of ethnomusicology.  As someone who has worked hard to learn as much as possible about this event, I feel a responsibility to make sure that the correct information is known, as there is still a lot of misinformation.  As a musician, when I find out about obscure recordings, artworks, etc. I do phone the May 4 Archive (on the 12th floor of our library) to see if they have it, and, if not, recommend that they obtain a copy.  Although there are courses taught about it here, most people here are not very interested or knowledgeable about the subject.  I gather from your comments that you are unwilling to seek any books on the subject; that's too bad.  Badagnani 22:55, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just trying to combat the same misinformation you are, we're on the same side.  Trouble is, unless there's some specific reference-able reason to believe that somebody was spreading those rumors, then what is a bit of a "definitive eArticle" on the subject should not say it's true Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 22:59, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Acres

message: ::I'm pretty sure the Guardsmen were pulled off of duty in Akron where they were providing protection on the highways from striking truckers against non-striking truckers.  [B. Sutton 4-19-06]
I remember hearing the guardsmen had just come back from something adversarial (combat, or combat training, i forget what) and they hadn't slept for three days. No, this doesn't excuse their actions, but it would put their behavior in context and might help explain why they were trigger happy. 70.177.90.238 07:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Any chance you could find a reference for that? I agree it would helpful to at least mention if that's the case.  I'm not really certain how the National Guard worked during the Vietnam War, but yeah, it would be great if you could find a reference. Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 19:11, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think they had just gotten back from breaking up a very tough strike somewhere else in Ohio, maybe Columbus.  There were many other similar confrontations that year.  Just before the Kent State events, black activists were shot with shotguns filled with rock salt, I think in Columbus.  Badagnani 20:17, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heavy on campus context; but zilch on guardsmen? 

message: In her 1997 multimedia work Partially Buried, visual artist Renée Green explores the history of the shootings within a wider historical and cultural context. is this actually worth mentioning in an encyclopaedic work?  I'm not sure exactly what it is, but it sounds suspiciously like a freelance self-employed hobbyist promoting their own work.  Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 17:40, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cleaned up a bunch more, reading the lyrics to Tin Omen, I'd say that's more of a "reference" than a tribute, and I don't think we want to start listing all pop culture references to something so major, so I suggest we remove it.  (IT's a tribute to Tiannemen, with a reference to Kent State) Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 19:13, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Artistic tributes section is well written as is, IMO.  Badagnani
Okay, I'm getting really damn sick of you just wholesale reverting shit because you don't like people changing your wording.  "It was good how it was", no, it wasn't.
*Your apostrophe was wrong, I fixed it, you reverted to incorrect
*The fact Neil Young was born in Canada has nothing to do with Kent State, it goes in *his* article
*The fact Harvey Andrews was born in the UK has nothing to do with Kent State, it goes in *his* article
*we do not randomly direct-quote stanzas from a random song
*Mark Mulcahy, lead singer for the 1980s band Miracle Legion, which reformed as Polaris.  Polaris performed songs for the kids' television show The Adventures of Pete and Pete, which ran from 1989-1994 on Nickelodeon. Polaris's version of Hey Sandy was used as the theme song for the show. is way too wordy, it's much better to say A different song entitled "Hey Sandy", commonly thought to be based on Andrews' song, was written by Mark Mulcahy, the song served as the theme for the television show The Adventures of Pete and Pete, which ran from 1989-1994., and if people care about Mulcahy's various musical groups, they can read HIS article.
*The shootings at Kent State have often been characterized as the seminal moment in the creation of the theory of de-evolution What the hell?  THat doesn't even make sense, and at best would need to definite citations that a student demonstration brought about "new theories"
*New Wave band Devo by its founders, Gerald Casale, Bob Lewis and Mark Mothersbaugh, all of whom attended Kent State University in the early 1970s. So?  I attended school with people who are now NHL hockey players, doesn't mean I should be mentioned in their wiki articles.  "early 70s" means they weren't even at the fecking school when it happened, and they definitely do not seem to have had some great encyclopaedic impact on the Kent State shootings.
etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...stop. Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 23:03, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: That huge section on plays/poetry/movies/books/interpretiveDancing

message: By that time most of the bars were closed and the downtown and campus were quiet. - was 1am a normal closing time for Kent bars in the 70s?  Also, removing again the  rumors that revolutionaries were planning to destroy the campus and the city to tip off a violent political revolution in the United States which is still not sourced anywhere, except a website run by the May 4th Task Force which says they wanted to destroy the university.  Definitely nothing about rumors about overthrowing the United States.  Second question is just whether anybody outside the University sphere ever referred to it as "May 4", I'd certainly never read it in newspapers accounts or anything the way "September 11th" and "9/11" are interchangable.Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 01:19, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To answer the question about when the bars closed, why not ask someone who was there at the time (there are a lot, it just takes a phone call or email), or get a good book on the subject?  A little bit of research (rather than just deleting) will likely solve this problem.  By the way, it would be great if you didn't use profanity here.  Badagnani 02:11, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Erm, I didn't delete either of those points, since I admit that I'm not God, and I don't know the answer to either question...hence why I'm asking. Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 04:27, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hrm

message: *Burned CDs made by University students as part of a "task force" really are not notable enough to be "musical tributes" in an encyclopaedic article.  This is not the place to advertise.
*There is no need to say "Canadian songwriter", the fact he composed the song hints to his occupation, and his nationality is not relevant. People who want to know that can read his article.  Same with Harvey.
*Words like "stabbed" and "defied" carry a slight POV bias in them and should be avoided, if we can think of better ways to word it.
*You've gone from claiming that students were slashing fire hoses with a  pocket knife, and when I asked for a source pointing out that it was physically impossible, you just changed it to say they were slashing firehoses.  Again, a source would be really nice for something like this which is definitely painting one side in a poor light, and doesn't seem to have any commonly-known historical context.
*The fact CSNY is a "folk rock group" doesn't belong in this article, it belongs in theirs
*"much less well known" is poor English, and borders on weasel words.  We don't list what countries each individual song was released in, if we want to do that, we create an article for the song.
*Why do you keep randomly putting in snippets of lyrics from "Hey Sandy"?  We don't directly quote the lyrics of other songs - and regardless of copyright status, it's simply bad form for an encyclopaedic article.
*The shootings were the catalyst for the theory of "Devolution," as constituted by the members of the new wave rock band Devo, who attended Kent State University in the early 1970s has absolutely nothing to do with the shootings
Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 06:52, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since Sherurcij has begun editing here, he has made many inaccurate statements about the Kent State shootings, all the while unabashedly stating that he is unwilling to research by looking at sources beyond the Internet.  It has become particularly bad in recent weeks.  For example, the May 4 Task Force's 2-CD set is not a "burned CD-R"; these are real CDs, with tracks by The Pretenders, Harvey Andrews, Joe Walsh, Holly Near, Manhattan Transfer, Yoko Ono, and others.  Sherurcij should defer to those who know more than he about a subject, as I do when editing here.  It will make the article even better, which is something we all want.  Or, you can continue to insist that the CD is actually a burned CD-R and we'll keep reverting.  That is wasting everyone's time and bandwidth.  Badagnani 06:57, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're the one claiming that students were "slashing" through firehoses with pocket knives.  I'll give you $50 if you can pull that stunt off even once.  You're also claiming that students were 'stabbed' with bayonets, something which has zero evidence. Here's a hint, if it comes from something called The May 4 Taskforce, chances are I'm not going to accept it as being gospel-truth NPOV.  But even the Taskforce says *1* student was *injured* by a bayonet, not "multiple students were stabbed" as you seem to keep claiming.  I'm curious what "inaccurate" statements I've made, since I never used the term CD-R - I admit I'm not up-to-date on your copyright status on Yoko Ono's work, it could be perfectly legitimate...I still argue that unless she wrote a song about the shootings, then it doesn't belong here.  You haven't yet explained why you think it's neccesary to fill the article with irrelevant information such as what country Neil Young was born in, or what genre of music CSNY classifies themselves as.  And no, I'm definitely not going to "defer to you" just because you think I "should".  If you want me to defer provide damned evidence to back up your claims.  That's what WP:V is about.  I'm disputing that multiple students were stabbed by bayonets, so I'm telling you, source it or remove it.  Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 07:08, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

text: The slashing of firehoses can be easily sourced, but Internet sources aren't particularly good for this subject; books, newspaper articles (available on microfilm at your local library), and eyewitness accounts in the May 4 Archive are much better.  I agree that probably all points in the article should be sourced eventually, but removing well known text by presuming that it's impossible to cut those hoses when everyone who was there saw it doesn't make much sense.  I can check to see if the hoses were actually punctured all the way through but I am sure at least the outside covering of the hoses was damaged.  To sum up, you seem very interested in this subject, and if you'd like this to be a really great article, why not get some of the books mentioned in the bibliography (there are some good ones) and source each incident?  That would be great, making for a really authoritative article.  Badagnani 07:01, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Scan the microfilm, print out the newspaper articles.  I've gone to my local libraries to print out hardcopy evidence for Wiki articles, it's not unreasonable to demand you do the same.  If I eMail Alan Canfora, will he support that students were slashing firehoses, since you said "everybody" saw them doing it?  It's not my job to source each incident, it's the job of the person who wants that incident included, if there's any dispute over it. Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 07:08, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cheers on the sources, thanks Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 15:32, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I would agree to removing the Andrews lyric but you have shown bad faith, constantly cursing, reporting people for restoring valid text you have deleted, and refusing to compromise.  You do seem interested in this subject but I don't see how I can compromise with someone who behaves as you do.  Badagnani 07:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just listed 9 points tonight, you addressed two of them ("The CD is valid", and "everybody knows they were slashing firehoses") and otherwise completely dismissed me, mass-reverting to get your text back in the article.  So again, please address each of the points I make, and source controversial claims, or remove them until a source can be provided. Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 07:12, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

text: You did assert that the CD was "burned," carrying the implication that it is a CD-R.  Please do not continue to make inaccurate statements, then stand behind them; it does not help your credibility here.  Your Yoko Ono comment does not make sense but removing yet again the mention of the commemorative CD (almost all songs have the Kent State Shootings as theme) is simple vandalism; please restore it now and show your good faith (which, I have to say, I have doubted up to now).  Badagnani 07:26, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Many of the points are difficult to address because they come from such an uninformed (and combatively so) point of view.  For example, your statement:  Burned CDs made by University students as part of a "task force" really are not notable enough to be "musical tributes" in an encyclopaedic article.  The group you are referring to is made up of Kent and local community members, as well as students, faculty, and staff of Kent State University.  It is not made up solely of students.  The 2-CD set is not "self-burned," as you had previously stated, then denied.  It contains tracks about the shootings by many internationally known artists and is of course worthy of mention here, and proceeds go toward a scholarship fund.  Badagnani 07:33, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If there is a scholarship fund specifically named after the shootings, then it deserves mention, but certainly not through its fundraising CD.  Since you bring it up, are they original recordings on the CD or licensed through the labelholders? Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 07:39, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I asked you nicely to restore the text and you refused to compromise.  Give me a good reason why I should continue to respond to you here.  I feel bad for you, like many students these days, that you're unable to find source material yourself.  If you want to know how the tracks on the CD were obtained and licensed, why not write to the email address of the person who put the project together?  It's never too late to get into a mode of finding information on your own rather than relying solely on the Internet, and it's really good feeling once that information is obtained and implemented in a Wikipedia article.  Check on this, let us know on "Discussion," then put the information back in the article.  Badagnani 07:46, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because I'm patient enough to deal with your jackassery, so you should be patient enough to deal with mine.  That's what makes WP great.  I don't personally care how the tracks on the CD were compiled and licensed, I don't think it belongs in the article.  But since you dispute that and claim that it does, I'm asking you to provide licensing information and such.  "I don't want to find it, go look for yourself" isn't good enough. Again, the onus is on you to back up any statements that you insist be included.  (Like the firehoses, the article is much better for readers now that it's sourced, ta).  And in case you didn't notice, I'm not relying on online sources for my information, I'm not relying on any of my own sources, I'm demanding that you reference yours - I'm taking stuff out of the article, not putting it in. Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 15:32, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Yet again, I'll address points that I'm sure you'll never counter-address or debate

message: Anybody else think it'd be nice to at least see the http://www.burr.kent.edu/archives/1990/filo/alanflag.jpg image included in the article?  After the Vecchio image, I think it's probably the most memorable I ever saw (Also the side-shot from the balcony, of the guards firing, I suppose).  I *think* it's Alan Canfora in the image, isn't it?  Anyhow, if you happen to be able to dig around and find a better-quality/larger version of the image that'd be great, or just this one :) Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 04:34, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: Why was the text changed to this:  "In 1971 Kent State alumni composer and pianist Bill Dobbins..."
This is inaccurate.  The composer was in graduate school at the time, not an "alumni" ("alumni," by the way, is a plural form so cannot apply to an individual).  Whoever changed the text, please change it back to the original wording.  Badagnani 22:58, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Inaccuracy

message: Re:  the detailed information about injuries to Guard members just added, the anon editor who added this must be drawing on a printed source in front of him/her, so it would be good if the reference is added, as this information is not generally known.  Keep in mind that the Record-Courier article published the day after the shootings stated that no students were killed but that several Guard members had been killed, so it's important which media source is being quoted and to make sure it's corroborated and trustworthy.  Badagnani 08:05, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guard injuries 

message: One website claims the discussion of bikers' brawling leading up to the violence is inaccurate.  I don't know what the case is, but thought I'd stick it here for consideration.  The link is 
.  Cheers, --TeaDrinker 22:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks; I wish he would chime in (or edit himself, as an expert on the subject; maybe he doesn't know how easy it is) with more fixes, particularly as regards the above issue which has not been addressed, and other errors or lacunae in the article.  Badagnani 23:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bikers 

message: The serial graphic novel (or 'comic book,' if you prefer) Transmetropolitan includes a scene towards the end of the series that is clearly a reference/tribute to the Kent shootings (one panel is even a direct homage to the Mary Ann Vecchio photograph).  Would it be appropriate to at least give it a mention in the 'Artistic Tributes' section?--MythicFox 07:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's interesting, but there are probably countless references like that in various books.  Nevertheless, I suppose it could count as an artistic tribute.  Badagnani 15:50, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transmetropolitan 

message: I removed the quotes from the single-quoted "'less-lethal' means"; it implies disbelief (unless it's an attributable quote, which I doubt, but feel free to correct me). I'm noting this here because, oddly, this change does not appear in the history, even though the change did "take". Using single quotes to imply the phrase "so-called" is sloppy writing, and probably violates WP:NPOV. Happy to discuss if you like. Graham 06:03, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that's interesting because the term "less lethal" was developed as a more accurate substitute for the term "non-lethal."  (For example, rubber, wooden, or plastic bullets, pepper spray, electrical tasers, etc.)  Thus, the term "non-lethal," if used in quotes, would be correct in undermining the veracity of the adjective, since some of these methods do kill people on a regular basis.  "Less-lethal" wouldn't require quotes since it's an accurate description of the methods.  Badagnani 06:09, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, but I guess my point was that if you want to undermine the veracity of an adjective (adverb, in this case: "less"), then do it directly, not with little tick marks. Graham 08:28, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  unattributed quote 

message: I've added this article to :Category:School massacres in the United States. I understand that this is a potentially controversial edit. The term "school massacre" usually refers to murder, as opposed to the use of lethal force by authorities. However, many people still consider the Kent State event to be an actual massacre.
Any thoughts? --Ixfd64 09:17, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  addition of article to [[:Category:School massacres in the United States]] 

message: According to Stanley Karnow, the statement is attributed to Ron Ziegler, Nixon's press secretary, not the president:
:"The administration initially reacted to this event [the shootings] with wanton insensitivity. Nixon's press secretary, Ron Ziegler, whose statements were carefully programmed, referred to the deaths as reminder that "when dissent turns to violence, it invites tradegy."    Vietnam: A History, p.612
Furthermore, the reaction of Nixon to the shootings portrayed by Karnow is at odds with what is currently drafted in the article.  Karnow continues:
:"One night, accompanied by his valet, he drove to the Lincoln Memorial, where young dissidents were conducting a nocturnal vigil. He treated them to a clumsy and condescending monologue, which he made public in an awkward attempt to display his benevolence. But not long afterward, when several senators nearly succeeded in restricting his military activities in Cambodia, he decided to stop 'screwing around' with his congressional adversaries and other foes. He ordered the formation of a covert team headed by Tom Huston, a former army intelligence specialist, to improve surveillance of domestic critics."              Vietnam: A History, p.612
--Dkwong323 07:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation needed for "This should remind us all once again that when dissent turns to violence it invites tragedy." / Nixon reaction may be misleading 

message: Alan Canfora, who was there, has maintained on his website that the Wikipedia is bad because it mentions that bikers were doing a lot of the disruption and vandalism on the evening of May 1.  However, he claims that this is inaccurate, although it appeared in at least one book and was repeated by others--he claims that the students, angry about the escalation of the war into Cambodia, were the ones who unleashed the vandalism, no bikers.  So the removal of the "bikers" info is probably a good edit.  Badagnani 05:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be careful about relying on Canfora for information.  He seems to have a lot of conspiracy theories of his own, such as blaming the FBI for the ROTC building fire, immediately after admitting his was on scene was the students attempted for a second time to restart the fire that the fire department had already put out.  He even compared the attempt to a "Three Stooges" routine.  Today, Canfora is the chairman of the Barberton Democratic Party (since 1992) and states "The Iraq war, like Vietnam, is based upon lies. War criminal George Bush is just a Nixon clone but Bush is protected, until November, by a Republican Congress. History will truly repeat in 2007 when a Democratic Congress impeaches Bush or forces him to resign."  This guy has had a political axe to grind for 40 years.  Not exactly a source for reliable information. Equinox137 07:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bikers 

message: This article is clearly biased.  From the beginning to the end, it uses weasel words ("attempted to justify"), unsourced statements, and other methods of subtly showing one viewpoint.  Again, though, just my opinion...  -Dbwiki148 01:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A lot of this is based on Alan Canfora's account of the incident.  As has been pointed out previously, I don't know enough about KS to re-edit it, although if it's not obvious, I'm not very sympathetic to the students/protestors in this case. Equinox137 09:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly agree with the NPOV designation, but I disagree somewhat with the bias designation.  The current WP article appears unbalanced because it is poorly organized, and ambiguous and incomplete in many areas.  (See my earlier comments.)  The treatment is not encyclopedic.  I suggest that readers and researchers can get a very balanced, clear, straight-forward treatment of the events in "The May 4 Shootings at Kent State University: The Search for Historical Accuracy" by Jerry M. Lewis and Thomas R. Hensley.  The article was published in THE OHIO COUNCIL FOR THE SOCIAL STUDIES REVIEW, VOL 34, NUMBER 1 (SUMMER, 1998) pp. 9-21.  That article contains a hefty bibliography and evaluations of the many books and articles on the May 4 events.  Of great value is an analysis of many of the important questions surrounding the May 4 events that still have not been answered with certainty.  The contributors to WP articles can learn from Lewis and Hensley how to treat uncertainty in an objective, organized manner.  Significantly, the article is posted on the Kent State University website and is listed as an external link in the current WP article .    ----Dkwong323 06:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV / Alternative Neutral Source

message: Should we add that the kent state shootings and the boston massacre occured almost two hundred years away from each other? It's a strange coincidence, seeing as the two events are very similar. --—Preceding unsigned comment added by Bubsty (talk • contribs) 
:That is interesting, but I'm not sure how that could be worked into the article.  Badagnani 04:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  Maybe a trivia section could be added to the article with that statement in place. Equinox137 09:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Trivia sections are starting to be looked down upon by WP, especially in serious articles such as this one. I've seen several people say (and I agree) that if a fact is important enough it will fit into the main body somewhere. If it can't then it's probably not important enough. 86.136.252.93 23:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no connection. None. Let's keep it to the facts, please.Knulclunk 04:32, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree - there is absolutely no connection.  Tvoz 10:21, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Two hundred years?

message: This article, about an important American historical event of the past half-decade, is in disrepair, due solely to its lack of inline citations. I don't personally know where to start with this article, having never edited it, but this really needs some work. There are a ton of NPOV problems that would go away with proper citations. Please take a look at WP:CITE and see what you can do. --Chris Griswold  (☎☓) 10:43, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References are in a sad state 

message: There is also a discussion about changing the filename of the Filo photograh to Kent Sate shootings.jpg.  Everyone is encouraged to offer insightful opinions on the 
--Knulclunk 01:09, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image filename change 

message: I've made several edits such as removing "attempted to justify" ref:Nixon, speculation, and unsourced references to vague "several other studies".  What else needs to be done to de-POV this article so the tag can be removed?  Personally, I don't see many POV issues left. Equinox137 07:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh - didn't see this before I wrote on yr page - I think your edits improve the piece.  I agree that it's pretty much NPOV now. Tvoz | talk 08:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, then.  Unless anyone objects, I'm removing the tag.  I'm also canning the statement about the Kent store owners until someone can source it.  Equinox137 08:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV Tag

message: I ask this because I really don't know.  The article states (Governor Rhodes) also claimed he would obtain a court order declaring a state of emergency, banning further demonstrations, and gave the impression that a situation akin to martial law had been declared.  In most states, the governor can declare a state emergency or martial law independent of a court order but subject to a timeframe.  Was this not the case in 1970 Ohio?  This statement sounds a little suspect, but I don't know about Ohio law to make an accurate edit on it.  Equinox137 08:55, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Court Order?

message: The article states that on Saturday, May 2: Kent's Mayor Leroy Satrom declared a state of emergency on May 2 and, later that afternoon, asked Ohio Governor James A. Rhodes to send the National Guard to Kent to help maintain order. Then during Sunday, May 3rd press conference, it states that, He (Gov. Rhodes) also claimed he would obtain a court order declaring a state of emergency, banning further demonstrations, and gave the impression that a situation akin to martial law had been declared. However, Rhodes did not declare the state of emergency, which would have made the May 3 and May 4 protests illegal.[6]. The question is: Wouldn't the Mayor's May 2 State of Emergency and NG call up be the guiding declaration making all subsequent protests illegal? --PBHWS 16:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would imagine that since the university grounds is state property (as opposed to public property) that no court order would be necessary.  At least that's how it works in my state. Equinox137 05:56, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Question on Court Order

message: Here is an online source that links the Nixon move to implement the Huston Plan against anti-war protestors with the Kent State shootings:
:Final Report Of The Select Committee To Study Governmental Operations With Respect To Intelligence Activities
:United States Senate 
:April 23 (under authority of the order of April 14), 1976
:http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/churchfinalreportIIIm.htm
(emphasis added) “A decision was made. The President would be asked to meet with the directors of the four intelligence agencies to take some action that might curb the growing violence… The meeting between President Nixon and the intelligence directors was not held in May, because plans for, and the reaction to, the April 29 invasion of Cambodia in Southeast Asia disrupted the entire White House schedule. In the aftermath of this event, the meeting "became even more important," recalls Huston. The expansion of the Indochina war into Cambodia and the shootings at Kent State and Jackson State had focused the actions on antiwar movement and civil rights activists. …As soon as the reaction to the Cambodian incursion had stabilized somewhat, the meeting between President Nixon and the intelligence directors was rescheduled for June 5th. It was to start a chain of events that would culminate in the Huston Plan.”
::--Wowaconia 08:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good.  If it is directly related to Kent State, then that should be made clear in the text of the article (it isn't, now).  Badagnani 08:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, you've added the date.  Nice work.  Badagnani 08:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why Huston Plan info is not tangential 

message: In Gordon's interview Ehrlichman also says that when Nixon decided to go into Cambodia, “He called me in and said, “Look, I’m going to have to lay aside domestic matters for a period of perhaps ten days and you are going to have to bring me all the decisions you want made right quick. Otherwise they are going to have to be deferred for a week or ten days. …The expectation was that he was not going to have to devote attention at all to domestic matters…The Kent State shootings derailed that assumption that he was going to be able to stay out of domestic affairs.”
Ehrlichman characterizes Nixon's general view on protestors as secure in the knowledge that the polls were with him so he did not have to care too much about them, he could even use examples of the acts by the more militant among the demonstrators to appeal to the majority of Americans who wanted law, order, and security. Remember "Within a week of the shooting, a Newsweek poll indicated that 58 percent of Americans blamed students for the deaths at Kent State. Only 11 percent blamed the National Guard."
Gordon also notes that H. R. Haldeman in The Haldeman Diaries said that “Nixon was very disturbed by the killings and ‘afraid that his decision [to invade Cambodia] set it off.’”
I leave it to the consensus of editors of this page to do what they will with the above info, I have to get back to filling the massive gaps in our articles about South America.:--Wowaconia 10:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: On Nixon's focus

message: There's a thoroughly researched Tampa Tribune article about Terry Norman here.  Badagnani 18:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Terry Norman]] 

message: A vote debating this issue is on my talk page. It is (so far) the closest thing to a debate forum on the subject. Please stop by. --Defender 911 20:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vote please