Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 27

message: I propose adding to item 3a a line like: Non-free content should only be used in the main article concerning what is depicted in the image and not in ancillary or broader topics in which a subset of the main article is included.
Editors are taking a copyrighted image and sticking in multiple articles, which violates the concept of minimal use. -Nv8200p talk 04:44, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What stance would that take on the subject of: images of fictional characters used on both the characters' pages and the actors' pages?  —  pd_THOR | =/\= | 04:47, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To me, images of fictional characters have no business on the on the actor's page. -Nv8200p talk 12:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Criterion 3 is about using as small a portion of the original as one needs, not about using it as infrequently as possible.  The latter concern is already addressed in Criterion 8, which says use it only where it is significant.  There are indeed a number of proper uses where the article is about a subject other than what is depicted in the image, e.g. an album cover in an article about the album (not about what is shown in the album art), a logo in an article about the company that uses the logo (not whatever image the logo depicts), etc.  Similarly, a fair use image may well be significant to more than one article.  A photo of a contemporary artwork may be relevant to the article about the work, as well as an article about the genre and an article about the technique used, among other things. Wikidemo 08:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minimal use requirement 

message: The artwork Gravitation by M.C. Escher has a somewhat iconic status among us afficionados. Page Kepler-Poinsot polyhedron has a thumbnail of it next to a link, while the Small stellated dodecahedron page has only a link (but IMHO would benefit from a thumbnail too). Question: is the thumbnail Fair use? I have been assuming that its iconic status justifies its presence, since many people familiar with the appearance of the work and the name of the artist will not know the name of the work. But another person has been arguing that it is unnecessary, just a link is fine. Maybe this particular judgement hinges on how "iconic" it really is? Thoughts and advice greatly appreciated. -- Steelpillow 09:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Justified for the article about the artwork, no question. No real need to use it on any other pages though. I would just link to the artwork article from the small stellated dodecahedron page. Carcharoth 10:24, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the image from small stellated dodecahedron, and removed the non free use rationale for that article from the image page. In these cases, I do think we should leave it to the readers to follow the links. They only need to see the image when they get to the article about the image. Carcharoth 10:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that was my point about the iconic nature of the work. WP:NONFREE#Unacceptable_uses item 4 gives, A work of art, not sufficiently well known to be recognized by a large percentage of casual readers, whose theme happens to be the Spanish Civil War, to illustrate an article on the war. (However, because of its iconic status, it is presumably "fair use" where there is a small image of Picasso's Guernica in the article Bombing of Guernica.) With the thumbnail there, people who visit the geometry page can see it and think for example, "well, I never realised that famous picture was one of these". If someone does not know the name of the work, they may never know what to look for unless the thumbnail is there to guide them. -- Steelpillow 11:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If we have an article about the image, then minimal use should suggest that it the image is only used on that article. Everything else can link to that article. In cases where there is no article about the image to link to, a non free image can be used on several articles if they have a strong claim for use of the image. It makes sense to me, but is hard to put into words. Maybe "if a non free picture can be replaced by a link to an article about the image, then this is nearly always preferable"? Carcharoth 00:36, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Sounds logical to me. -- Ned Scott 01:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the replies. But again I refer you back to that quote, "However, because of its iconic status, it is presumably "fair use" where there is a small image of Picasso's Guernica in the article Bombing of Guernica." In other words, there is a getout clause where the work is "sufficiently well known to be recognized by a large percentage of casual readers". Nobody's reply has yet made reference to this, to say either "Yes, this getout clause does after all take precedence over what we just said", or "No, it does not apply in the present case because ...". This is the ruling (if that's the right word) that I am seeking. -- Steelpillow 09:27, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with the Guernica example. Have a look at the Bombing of Guernica article without the image. It doesn't suffer at all, in my opinion, from a lack of the image. If people are unsure what this 'Guernica' painting is, they should click on the link. I'm normally all for articles being self-contained, and for explaining context in articles, rather than leaving the reader to click a link, but in the case of minimising use of non-free images, it makes sense to send people off to the article on the image instead, if one exists. Carcharoth 16:03, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been bold and made changes to the policy and the guideline. Probably best to discuss in the new section below. See Wikipedia talk:Non-free content#Articles with their own images. Carcharoth 16:26, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-free image on multiple pages 

message: I am interested in opinions on :Image:Seagate_160_GB_hard_drive_box.jpg. Our longstanding practice is that this is a nonfree image because it is a derivative work of its subject. Recently there is a discussion on commons about such images, including a comment by our lawyer that I don't understand . For our purposes, is this image "non-free"? — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From what I understand, it isn't, though I could be wrong.  17Drew 19:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

text: My understanding of what he (Godwin) is saying there, is that we shouldn't delete such images, or overly restrict their usage, unless we (ie. the Foundation or the OTRS people) receive a complaint. But best to check with him directly, obviously. My view would be to tag the image as copyright, or use a tag that states that it is of a trademarked object or copyrighted design, and then provide a non free use rationale. And then show Godwin's comment to 'those who have a narrow interpretation of Wikipedia's non free use criteria and argue for the deletion of the image', while you respond by politely suggesting that it really wouldn't do any harm to keep the image. Then, if the image still gets deleted, take it to deletion review, quoting Godwin at each stage if needed, though don't rely too much on Godwin's quote. If he gets involved, all the better. If not, you've made a principled stand. Obviously, you won't be able to tag with a copyright tag on Commons, so upload it to Wikipedia. Carcharoth 00:07, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I may be the one with the narrow view here.  If we have to put a nonfree use rationale on this, then it isn't a free image, and for the use it has in the article it's replaceable. The question is whether we can just put a GFDL tag on it and nothing else (which is what I believe the uploader would like to do). — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict) Hang on. I thought the image was being used in the article about the product. I was wondering why someone took a photo of the packaging and not the product inside. Then I realised it was being used to show misleading labelling. Scrub the above. Godwin's comment doesn't apply here. The labelling does not need to be illustrated. It can be described by text, and needs to be sourced to reliable sources, not 'proven' by a series of photographs. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a place for exposes or original research or investigative journalism. Carcharoth 00:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Godwin's comment still applies: "a photograph that happens to include all or part of a copyrighted image or a trademark does not raise significant intellectual property issues."  That is regardless of any article content.  The objection, "not a place for exposes or original research or investigative journalism" applies to the article per WP:NOR, but is not relevant to the photo copyright issue. Tyrenius 01:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This photo doesn't "happen" to include the copyrighted work - the entire purpose of the photo is to reproduce it. A particular reading of Godwin's comment might suggest that a photo of an album cover serving only to reproduce the cover could be a free image. That's why I said I don't understand Godwin's comment. — Carl (CBM · talk) 01:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the image given as an example at the beginning of the thread Godwin commented on: :Image:CornNuts Dscn0266 crop.jpg.  It seems to be the same situation as the example you are querying.  A possible rationale is that the photo is of a package (cardboard boxes aren't copyright) which happens to have a design on it. An album cover reproduction is usually just of the design as the substantive part of the image. Maybe if the album cover was at an angle in a larger setting it would just "happen" to have a copyright work included.  That is only speculative and it really needs further definition from him. Tyrenius 02:02, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It depends on how significantly featured the copyrighted/trademarked work is. If I take a photo of a street scene, and included in that photo happens to be a Starbucks logo on a visible store and a discarded Coke can in the street, Starbucks or Coke can't come after me—their inclusion is incidental. On the other hand, if I obviously set up a Coke can with a totally white background and nothing else in the shot, and it's the obvious subject of the photo, Coke can probably claim it as a derivative work. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:19, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What I'm looking for is not a general theory, which is more difficult anyway. I'm looking for opinions about whether th eimage named above is free or nonfree. That's a specific question that should be simpler to answer. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images that mainly serve to illustrate a copyrighted item 

message: I added "Care should be taken over retired groups and people, as images of them now may not serve the same purpose as images of them during their career." to suggest the possibility of some exceptions for the living people rule. This could be controversial, so I'm raising it here (along with nearly every edit I've been making to the page). The argument goes that pictures of an actor or sportsperson or musician during their career are the encyclopedic ideal, and that pictures of them long after they have retired, maybe when they are very old, may be less than ideal. The equivalent for buildings, which I didn't mention, is that a building may get partly demolished or rebuilt or extended. In other words, the appearance might change significantly.  What's the verdict on this? My guess is it comes down to whether the change in appearance is discussed in the article or not, or whether the mere act of illustrating a unique historical moment is enough. Carcharoth 00:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I think this is already covered. The key here is wheter or not a free licensed image can be created to serve the same ensyclopedic use. If the image is spesificaly used to discuss how someone looked while they where active 40 years ago then obviously a random photo of them today won't do the same job. That said it obviously needs to be used in that way in the article and explain why it's use is significant in it's rationale. It may well be non-replacable, but if it's not significant either it will still fail the criteria, albeit a different part of it. --Sherool (talk) 08:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Retired people 

message: I have raised a question here about how to handle images which are probably, but not certainly, in the public domain. I'd appreciate any feedback there. – Quadell (talk) (random) 14:17, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This may be relevant: Save Orphan Works. --Abu badali (talk) 16:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are we discussing this here or there? Can someone consolidate the discussion and relocate everything to one location? I think a note on DRV pointing here is best. For what it is worth, DRV shouldn't be taken as precedent. The people at DRV are no more or less competent than the people at IfD. It is entirely possible to renominate an image that was overturned at DRV, and get a new IfD consensus to delete. Of course, what is really needed is authoritative information. Carcharoth 17:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images probably in the public domain 

message: My more detailed post above got no response, though a later thread did cover the issue, so I'm raising the issue of "respect for commercial opportunities" (NFCC#2) again here. The basic issue, already covered as CSD, is a need to insert a clause into NFCC#2 saying that the mere presence of a historical image (or indeed any image) on a stock image library, or an archive image library, doesn't automatically mean that NFCC#2 should apply. Free images are sold by image libraries, though they apply the standard copyright tag to all their images regardless. These free images may be ones that were always free (eg. NASA pics) or ones that have become free (expired copyright, public domain by age). What I want to see is whether there is a consensus to explicitly acknowledge this in the NFCC#2 section.
An example of this is the following:"The Hulton Getty Picture Collection (formerly the Hulton Deutsch Archive) scarcely needs an introduction. Based in London, this collection is universally acknowledged as the greastest library of photojournalism in the world. The collection comprises in excess of 15 million photographs, prints and engravings, including the work of such famous names as Keystone, Picture Post, Fox and Central Press. More recently, the HGPC became responsible for the management of Mirror Syndication International and for the digital archiving of the Reuters News Picture Service; it has published several CD-ROMs covering evocative images of a selection of decades from the twentieth century. HGPC is also co-operating in RACE project called MEDIATOR, which involves the production of a digital newspaper. From its vast archival collection, the HGPC is contributing 15,000 images for the main HELIX database and another 7,000 images for a module covering the Social and Political History of Britain from 1859 to the present day (SPHB)."
This and other image libraries perform a valuable service in archiving and preserving historical images, and a lot of works goes into finding, restoring and scanning old images, but I'd really like more guidance on when the images fall out of copyright, or whether historical archives can and do renew the copyrights? Note that even when images have fallen out of copyright, the image libraries will still mark them as copyright and carry on selling them. The mere presence of a historical image on an image library's website shouldn't lead to automatic cries of NFCC#2 (respect commercial opportunities). For a start, low-resolution images impact commercial opportunities to a very small extent. Image libraries provide extremely high-resolution scans for print purposes, and if we wanted high-resolution scans, we would need to do those ourselves.
I'm not sure how NFCC#2 needs adjusting for this, but how about:"Respect for commercial opportunities. Non-free content should not be used in a manner that is likely to replace the original market role of the original copyrighted media. Please note that image libraries and other organisations often mark all their images as copyrighted, including ones that they have obtained from free or public domain sources, or that are now free or public domain by age. This means that the presence of an image on an image library's commercial sales website does not automatically mean this criterion applies. What also needs to be determined is the actual copyright status of the image."
Possibly all this is implied in the phrase "original market role of the original copyrighted media", but I am not sure people are actually understanding what that means. If there is a more elegant way to phrase this, please suggest it. Carcharoth 11:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One thing I forgot. Sometimes old image archives include unpublished old negatives, and the image library is effectively publishing the images for the first time. In these cases, NFCC#4 applies, so care should be taken there. Carcharoth 11:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

text: It is true that many libraries and museums maintain that they hold copyright over their collections when they in fact do not.  I think, however, that there are more appropriate places, such as a copyright tutorial or essay, to detail false claim of copyright than in the non-free content criteria.  --Iamunknown 18:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. But such an essay is long overdue. I am willing to make a start, but what would be the best title? Carcharoth 00:32, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

text: That is a problem. However, it doesn't stop people trying to delete historical images under NFCC#10. Maybe change to "What also needs to be determined, as far as is reasonably possible,' is the actual copyright status of the image." We should have a template for "historical images of uncertain status". We used to have , but for some reason (I suspect copyright paranoia) it got deprecated. Carcharoth 00:32, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you plan to differentiate "images with unknown copyright status" from "images the uploader didn't find the copyright status in a google search"?. As a side note, do you have any idea how unhealthy for a discussion it is to classify opinions you disagree with as "paranoia"? --Abu badali (talk) 15:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said elsewhere, sorry if the paranoia word offended anyone. That wasn't my intention. I was referring more to the substance of the argument, rather than the connotations of the word. As for differentiating, I personally don't trust anything any uploader says until I've checked it. We should really start a verification method for people to sign off on images as confirmed PD, etc. Carcharoth 17:40, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical images and NFCC#2 

message: I wondered if it is worth comparing four different approaches to commentary on an image:
*:Image:Time evolution wars.jpg in Intelligent design: "The public controversy was given widespread media coverage in the United States, particularly during the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial in 2005. Prominent coverage of the public controversy was given on the front page of Time magazine with a story on Evolution Wars, on 15 August, 2005. The cover shows God facing off against a chimpanzee"
*:Image:Time-magazine-neville-chamberlain.jpg in Neville Chamberlain: "During his tenure as Chancellor, Chamberlain emerged as the most active minister of the government. In successive budgets he sought to undo the harsh budget cuts of 1931; he also took a lead in ending war debts, which were finally cancelled at a conference at Lausanne in 1932. In June 1933, Britain hosted the World Monetary and Economic Conference. Describing the event as the "most crucial gathering since Versailles," top U.S. newsmagazine Time featured Chamberlain on its cover, referring to him as "that mighty mover behind British Cabinet scenes, lean, taciturn, iron-willed... [I]t is no secret that Scot MacDonald remains Prime Minister by Prime Mover Chamberlain's leave."[2]"
*:Image:Burningmonk.jpg in Thich Quang Duc: "Browne's photographs quickly spread across the world wire services and leapt off the front pages of newspapers worldwide. [...] no news picture in history has generated so much emotion around the world as that one [...] In Europe the photos were hawked on the streets, and Communist China distributed millions of copies of the photo throughout Asia and Africa as evidence of “US imperialism”. One of Browne's photos remains affixed to the sedan in which Thich Quang Duc drove to his self-immolation and is part of a tourist attraction in what is now Ho Chi Minh City commemorating the event."
*:Image:WW2 Iwo Jima flag raising.jpg in Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima: "The photograph was extremely popular, being reprinted in thousands of publications. Later, it became the only photograph to win the Pulitzer Prize for Photography in the same year as its publication, and ultimately came to be regarded as one of the most significant and recognizable images of the war, and possibly the most reproduced photograph of all time." (from the lead section), plus Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima#Legacy and other sections.
Given the examples above, is it possible to come to an objective decision on NFCC#8 cases? There is a whole spectrum of way to add commentary, from a range of sources. What should be assessed? The relevance of the visual information to the commentary, the impact of the actual image, the lasting legacy, or what? Many more examples can, and should be provided, to guide people on this.
On a separate, but related issue, I think some consideration should be given to the educational nature of historical images. I think the simplest way to put this is that sometimes old images are needed in history articles purely to increase the reader's understanding of the history. Text descriptions can only go so far, and the educational value of showing what things looked like at the time cannot be overestimated, in my opinion. This would apply even when the particular picture was not iconic or remembered as a picture. Thoughts? Carcharoth 09:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is a really random result, that gets the policy badly wrong. Of these images, the one that has the best cause for actually increasing understanding of the topic itself is the one that was deleted. It reflects the fact, meaning no offense, that people are actually being guided more by the iconic nature of the image than by real contribution to understanding as provided for in the policy. The other images are more forceful and memorable, I grant. This seems to be the real basis for decisions, I guess. IMO —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 10:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The second one might get deleted as well. A parallel discussion is going on at User talk:Neil#Interpretations of NFCC#8. I'm going to try and end that and ask him to copy his thoughts over here. I'll bring my comments over as well. Carcharoth 11:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (copied across) Well, of the four examples you give, only the latter two contain critical commentary on the image (note that critical is not used in the sense of criticism, rather in the sense of discussing the value/impact/legacy/etc of the image).  I don't, personally, see how showing :Image:Time-magazine-neville-chamberlain.jpg adds to the current text when the current fair use criteria are applied.  It is possible to come to a subjective decision - the important question as regards the NFCC#8 criterion is "is the image itself (not what the image portrays, or the fact the image exists) discussed within the article"?  If yes, NFCC#8 is met.  I agree that educational value of "what things looked like at the time" would be really useful; this is not, at present, within the criteria - and in the present climate, I don't forsee any attempt to make the less stringent or more inclusive being succesful. Neil ム 11:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Maybe sustained impact is a better way to phrase all this? The two TIME images certainly had an impact at the time, but it needs distance in time to ascertain the historical legacy of something. My gripe is with 70+ years old images which are old enough, in my opinion, to qualify as genuinely historically educational (eg. :Image:1heldeplatz.jpg), without the image itself having its own legacy. The problem seems to be people applying the letter of NFCC#8, rather than the spirit of it. Historical images that are educational due to their age are definitely in the spirit of NFCC#8, in my opinion. My evidence for the spirit comes from , which seems to have been meant for images of historic moments regardless of whether the image was itself notable with its own impact and legacy, and also, surprisingly to some, from the Foundation licensing policy itself: : "Their use, with limited exception, should be to illustrate historically significant events..." I can't interpret that any other way than to say that the WMF is saying that it is OK to use images just to illustrate historically significant event. NFCC#8, which is part of Wikipedia's response to the WMF policy, seems to go beyond what was intended. What do people here think? Carcharoth 11:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of the oldest photographs (those older than the date of the author's death plus 70 years) are immediately public domain under US, EU, Canadia and most other laws (most others are less restrictive than the 70 years). It's the historical images that don't fall into that criterion that the problem applies to. People are (rightly or wrongly) very stringent about applying the letter of policy with regards to image copyright (a lot more so than text, I think because images are far easier to deal with). The Foundation policy and the en.Wikipedia policy differ, yes, and so the Wikipedia fair use criteria could be changed, but a change in the criteria itself, even if it's just in the phrasing, would be the only way to change it so people were happy that images solely used to illustrate historical events could get onto Wikipedia. Neil ム 11:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examples of NFCC#8 (image significance for article) 

message: When researching the article on the ship wreck Vasa I came across information about a painting found on the front of the foremast depicting an unknown kingly figure. When the mast was salvaged, the painting of the king disappeared, probably because the outer layer of the mast was washed off, and all that was left was some paint residue. The painting was filmed before the mast was salvaged and a pencil sketch of the painting was made by the head of the diving team, Per Edvin Fälting (1911-1995). The sketch is included in Vasa I, the most comprehensive and most definitive book on the archaeology of Vasa published so far. As far as I know, the picture has no commercial value and was done by Fälting while he was engaged in the investigation and salvaging of Vasa, which more or less qualifies it as scientific, rather than artistic work, even if Fälting himself was not a scholar or archaeologist. I asked the director of the Vasa Museum, Klas Helmersson, about the picture, but he told me that the film was not preserved and that there seems to be no other depictions of the mast painting other than Fälting's sketch.
I've scanned the picture from Vasa I, but before uploading it with a fair use rationale, I would like some feedback to see if others think it would be reasonable to do so.
Peter Isotalo 17:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This sounds very reasonable to me. Mention the above in your fair use rationale, and there should be no problems. Carcharoth 17:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds like the very definition of irreplaceable to me. As long as it's accompanied by commentary, I see no trouble at all. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A rare sketch 

message: Some of the confusion about the Board's Licensing Policy Resolution, it seems to me, arises out of lack of clarity about the word "media". Wikidemo pointed out above in this section that "Kat Walsh recently clarified that the foundation resolution is not intended to impose a requirement for explicit written rationales for each image or image use." The main copyright problem these days is the widespread dissemination of audio and video clips under "fair use", a practice which if not kept to a minimum can run right into the teeth of modern copyright law. Also, a vitally important issue with these audio and video media is faithful representation of the source where the uploader got the image from. (See, e.g. this section of the US Code, which deals with the need to diligently protect copyright management information (CMI).) The most recent series of changes in modern copyright law were, in fact, primarily driven by the increasing proliferation of reproductions of whole songs, movies, etc. on the web. Still images, particularly low resolution images that have faithfully represented where the image was found, are a very substantially different issue. Thus, in my opinion it may be necessary to more extensively discuss the specific language of the NFCCs, which fail to effectively differentiate between reasonable use of low-resolution still images that do not detract from the copyright holder's ability to make money from the image, and indeed often enhance the ability of the copyright holder to make money from the work from which the image is drawn.
This issue, along with a number of others, in my opinion, speaks to the need to continue the discussion about the language of the NFCCs, particularly now that several months worth of practical experience allows an assessment of where some of the practical problems arise. The failure to differentiate between low resolution still images and audio/video media surely is one of the problems that we've had an opportunity to identify, and IMO should begin to address more specifically.
Among the other issues that I think will need to be revisited and addressed is that the Board, in its March 2007 Resolution, never used words like "as little as possible", "necessary" (or "essential"), etc., words that have proven to be extremely divisive on the wiki and which indeed appear to have contributed to unnecessary arguments that in many instances have been somewhat corrosive to the collective good will among users, and which might not occur to anywhere nearly the same extent if these issues were better clarified.  I recognize that there is a significant contingent which believes that no fair-use should be permitted on the wiki, and who will seek the strongest possible language weighted against fair use of anything other than explicitly "fee-license" images or other media. But nonetheless, these issues about differentiating low-res still images (album covers, book and magazine covers, photos of non living persons, iconic images, historically important persons, etc.) from the comparatively dangerous minefield of audio-video media, I should think, really needs to be discussed and clarified and the NFCCs such as #1, #3, and as mentioned, #10, rewritten to whatever extent may be consensused to be appropriate in light of the experiences of the past five months since the Board resolution. ... Kenosis 18:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They may not have used the words "as little as possible", "necessary" or "essential", but they did use the words "minimal" and "within narrow limits".  (Both in paragraph 3) -- But|seriously|folks  18:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, definitely true BSF. It appears they may have been directing those words primarily at the audio-video and other "media" files. It's a potential source of great confusion. For instance, Videmus Omnia and I had to clarify what's meant in a recent conversation with one another. If I remember our conversation correctly, he'd become accustomed to thinking of "media" more-or-less what I think the Board was referring to, i.e., the audio, video, audio-video files, and moving gifs and such (correct me if I'm wrong, VO). And I was using "media" to refer to all media including even the low-res still images. Now, in light of the clarification from Kat, I begin to sense Omnia's use was more in line with the intent of the Board in its resolution. This issue, IMO, does need better clarity and, I think, further clarifications from the Board in seeking better clarity in the NFCCs. ... Kenosis 19:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it is unfortunately ambiguous.  Clearer guidance from the Foundation and its legal counsel in this area would help save us all a lot of time and energy. -- But|seriously|folks  19:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The resolution uses "media" to refer to anything contributed to the projects that isn't text. Images are clearly included. There isn't much point in rephrasing the policy to be more permissive when we are already sinking in non-free content. --Abu badali (talk) 19:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

text: (EC) Granted "media" can have several meansing, but given the context I hardly think it's ambibous (we are not talking about the mass media, or a person who communicate with the dead or something in between two extremes and so on), a media is simply any format used to communicate or presnet information, as far as I know we have always used it simply as a "catch all" for stuff in the image namespace to ensure that things that are not actualy images don't get left out. --Sherool (talk) 19:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought it was clear that "media" included images. Oh well . . . -- But|seriously|folks  19:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

text: It's pretty clear to me that "media" includes images. -- Ned Scott 20:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, it certainly does.  There's a lot that's commonly misunderstood in that statement, but that it includes images isn't part of that. WilyD 20:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not anticipate that discussions of the needed clarifications would be without controversy. But a very strong indicator that the Board was aiming its sights more strongly at the audio-video media is the following passage from their resolution: "Non-free content used under an EDP must be identified in a machine-readable format so that it can be easily identified by users of the site as well as re-users." This is a passage that appears to refer to the practice of encoding copyright management information (CMI) into the file itself, as is increasingly being done by the copyright holder with music and video files. Jpeg's of still photographic images generally do not involve such encoding, unless someone has added it. We increasingly see this on the web, e.g. here, where the words "Hubcapcafe.com" identify the fact that the image passed through their hands, so to speak. And if the image is uploaded from a source page that does have CMI or other identifications encoded into it, we're expected to leave that CMI or other encoding in the image, not use, say photoshop, to remove the info. At least that's my take on it. This leads me to think that the Board's emphasis was more on the audio-video and other files commonly encoded with copyright management information than it was to still images. And, of course, with still images that do not have source info embedded into it, we're expected to faithfully represent the source from which we obtained the image and any additional relevant information on its progeny. At least that's my take on it. As I was trying to say, I think we do need clarification on this. ... Kenosis 20:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The entire nonfree media policy applies to all media, including images. For images (and indeed other media files), the "machine-readable" requirement is satisfied by having a nonfree license template on the image page, since a program or script can easily look for such templates. It's not required that the information be encoded into the file itself. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely, Seraphimblade is correct here.  Machine-readable means it has a distinct template so the non-free content can be identified and filtered out automatically, such as by using special tags for non-free images (as we do). -- But|seriously|folks  23:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahh, yes. OK, that particular language becomes clearer now. Thanks. So we can agree that media refers to all media including still photographic images. ... Kenosis 00:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there's a consensus on that, anyhow. WilyD 18:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Confusion about the NFCC and Board's language

message: Just a timely reminder for those participating in IfD debates to remember to check Commons for free replacement images. See this edit here, where, after a long, long debate, it was eventually discovered, just after the debate closed, that the free replacement image someone found late in the discussion, had been on Commons since July 2006! Copied to WT:IFD. Carcharoth 00:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Checking Commons first! 

message: Galleries of non free images not significant for an article are, for good reasons, not allowed. But what would happen if several images, all with acceptable non free use rationales were used in an article, and the editors decided instead of having the images scattered throughout the article, it would make more sense to present them as a small gallery? Presenting them this way would be purely a layout decision, not a non free use decision. Considerations like this make me think that the automatic ban on galleries misses the point. If the number of images in the gallery is excessive, or the images in the galleries are not discussed in any way in the article, or not needed for identification, then there are perfectly adequate reasons to cite for removing the images, instead of crying "no galleries". I think the presumption is that galleries are used to add more images to an article, over and above the normal ones, but this misses the rare possibility that the images used in an article might be presented in gallery format, instead of at various points throughout the article. My feeling is that galleries should, in limited circumstances, be allowed if the gallery is accompanied by text commenting on, discussing and supporting the images. Is this feasible? Carcharoth 17:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The images would ideally each be supported by accompanying text. Putting each of the images beside its text makes more sense than gathering them at the bottom.  Do you have an example of an article that has valid nonfree images but puts them in a gallery? — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, Padmé Amidala uses two non-free image in a gallery where the gallery is beneath the text rather than beside it for what is basically a formatting issue.  You could reformat the images to be on the side of the section rather than the bottom, but it'd inhibit readability. WilyD 20:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. A perfect example. Now, how can this point be made to people who seem programmed to say "non free gallery = bad". What they probably mean to say is "non free images not contributing to the article" (NFCC#8) or "excessive use of non free images" (NFCC#3). In most cases, non free image galleries will be examples of this, but not all cases. So instead of saying "it's a gallery, it must be bad", people should be removing the images per NFCC#8 and NFCC#3. It seems to me that "removing gallery, non free image galleries are not allowed" is a misleading shorthand. People could easily think that the same images could be re-inserted into the article, spread throughout the article, when this is rarely the case. The guideline already says "The use of non-free media in lists, galleries, discographies, and navigational and user-interface elements normally fails the test for significance (criterion #8), and is thus unacceptable", but people should judge each gallery on its NFCC#8 basis, rather than blindly assuming a gallery is bad. Carcharoth 22:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

text: *If that can be clarified in the policy, then great. Problem is, we get into mysterious definitions of what is and is not significant commentary. We're having constant battles about that. --Durin 22:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *As in any case, rules have exceptions. I don't see any particular problems in the Amidala article, as the images are genuinely contributory to significant commentary and add greatly to the understanding of it. I don't see any particular problem with a gallery, in that instance. However, 99.9% of galleries are just "Let's throw together 20 screenshots of this (video game|movie|etc.)!" It's understood that all policies have exceptions in a few cases, but in the vast majority of cases it's a good rule. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In the Amidala article, the gallery is OK because the images relate to the text in that very section.  If the discussion of fashion was higher on the page, it would make less sense to have a gallery there. Similarly, it would make less sense to have an image of her fighting style in the fashion gallery. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you believe that I thought to myself, while writing the original post, "I bet someone will say 'there's always the exception that proves the rule'"? Anyway, I'm not talking about changing the rule, merely making clear that it is not an iron-cast rule. In fact the current wording already does this, so Seraphimblade and I obviously both failed to read the current wording: "The use of non-free media in lists, galleries, discographies, and navigational and user-interface elements normally fails the test for significance (criterion #8), and is thus unacceptable.". This kind of wording is useful when trying to politely reason with people who are convinced that what they are demanding is beyond reproach and is policy. Carcharoth 23:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The change looks okay, though I thought that was implied by the use of "normally", i.e. normally fails #8 and is thus unacceptable means normally (fails 8 and is thus unacceptable), as opposed to (normally fails 8) and is thus unacceptable.  I see no harm to making that clear but I usually don't like seeing words like "never" and "always" in the policy and guideline pages, even with a qualifier.  Does "nearly always" mean fewer exceptions than a typical guideline rule?  Wikidemo 16:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I agree that "always" and "never" are not good words to use on guideline and policy pages, but in this case, what I found unacceptable was the word "unacceptable"! But this is moot because I've just realised that "normally" should be "usually" - how can a failure be "normal"?? Carcharoth 01:36, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Galleries 

message: Can you point me to where the original clarification by Kat Walsh, mentioned by Wikidemo, concerning individual images each having specific "fair-use rationales" is located? Thank you. ... Kenosis 03:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that it was at the foundation-l mailing list.  --Iamunknown 04:07, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's it!  It was first mentioned on this page in the archive here.  Wikidemo 04:14, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Appreciate it, Iamunknown. Wikidemo? Who's that? Am I on the right page? Iamunkown, I thought we weren't speaking with each other for at least a couple more days.  ;-) [wink and a smile. Thanks for the link] ... Kenosis 04:19, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kat Walsh's clarification 

message: Promotional images are de facto free images. If an artist or company releases a certain image as promotional, it means the media is fully authorized to use said image to illustrate articles about said artist or company. Thus, I believe they should be allowed in Wikipedia without restriction. -- Stormwatch 06:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That does not meet the criteria of free images. Free images must be free for anyone to redistribute, modify, and use for any purpose, commercial or noncommercial. Promotional images would generally not be allowed for use in commercial purposes, and it's also generally forbidden to modify them. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

text: People suggest this from time to time, but it's not going to happen. We need an explicit release under terms compatable with a free license in order to consider something free. What you believe theyr intention is doesn't rely matter. Sometimes people are in fact prepated to release promotional or simmilar material under a true free license if you just ask them nicely (especialy independent artists who don't have layer upon layer of corporate legal beurocracy to deal with), they may simply be unaware that it is an option, but unless we have that comfirmation from the copyright holder directly we can't simply make asumptions about how freely they intended to allow theyr material to be used. --Sherool (talk) 07:14, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem with this sentiment is that copyright lasts too long. There is publicity material from old TV shows and movies that will not fall into the public domain for another 50? years. So does that mean that wikipedia has a barren article page so that it might hold up its 'ideal' of completely free content? No, it doesn't, because that would mean that Wikipedia's purpose is not to build an encylopedia, but to build up the 'GFDL'. Building the 'free' is wonderful where it can be done, but not at the expense of building an 'encyclopedia'. The two are not mutually exlcusive. -Nodekeeper 03:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If we are successful at building a free encyclopedia, people will release free images for us to use, because they want to have them in the articles on their shows. If we use nonfree images too often, people have no incentive to release free ones for us. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This rationale is flawed for a number of reasons. But I'm not going to restate something that has most likely been argued a mumber of times anyway. -Nodekeeper 08:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some people actively seek to be anal-retentive, sticking to the minutiae of formality and not bending to reasonability. Most are lawyers, but some are Wikipedia admins. Hope you'll never have to meet one in person! -- 201.9.110.152 23:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Note that by definition if you are stating people are not going to release their images under free licenses for a variety of reasons you are agreeing that promo images are not 'free' as expected by our free content goal. If you are trying to argue that we should allow promo images even though they are not 'free', that is a completely different argument from the claims of the original poster that promo images are defacto free Nil Einne 15:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Will someone explain to me... why is there a "Non-free promotional" tag if promotional images are not supposed to be used?! --Stormwatch 23:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Many editors such as you and myself were uniformed about the policy changes that a large cabal of editors have put into effect (following a policy statement from above). The only way that it changes is if a large number of editors stick around to change it. I am not hopeful. BTW the 'non-free promotional' tag will most likely eventually be deleted. Somebody is welcome to correct me on this. -Nodekeeper 00:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In some cases, nonfree promotional images are acceptable, just like any nonfree images. But they still are nonfree images, and must meet all the standard requirements (minimal use, irreplaceable, non-decorative, etc. etc.) The template just illustrates the copyright status of such an image. I doubt if it will get deleted. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:38, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Try modifying a promotional image in some degratory way or if it's a person perhaps use it to make a nude image and find out for yourself whether it's really a free image. Or perhaps try printing some mugs, tshirts and stuff with that image. You'll likely quickly find out it probably isn't and it'll in fact very likely be considered a violation of the copyright in addition to any publicity rights that may be applicable in the jurisdiction if it's a person. Indeed a simple read through of the conditions release with such an image should be enough. Also, if promo images are 'free' then why is it so hard to get people to release them under free licenses? Clearly they are not free. Nil Einne 08:40, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

text: You may want to check Wikipedia:WikiProject Free images for a WikiProject that tries to contact copyright holder like agencies and discographies to release promotional material under a free license. -- ReyBrujo 18:44, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Promo images as ''de facto'' free images 

message: Can we please get rid of this sub-section: WP:NONFREE#Tagging_for_review?  
It's been listed as a "proposed" addition for some time and it seems to be inactive at this point.  If we do adopt it, we should link it to a separate page because it's a voluntary process that only some people will use, not something everyone needs to see when they want to read our non-free guideline rules.  And if it's still under discussion we should put it on a proposal page instead letting it clutter up the guideline page.
In case anyone wonders why I care I'm slowly copy-editing the non-free guideline page in order to try to make it more readable and bring it down to manageable length.  Slowly, so that if I make a horrible mistake or anyone has a big objection they can stop me before I mess up the whole page.  I just took a pass at the "non-free image tagging" section, and the "tagging for review" section is next.  It seems to add nothing, so rather than editing I would like to move it off the page.  Thx.  Wikidemo 13:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone?  Remember, silence=consent!Wikidemo 16:43, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, removed.  If anyone wants to save this content beyond the edit history, please put it on some auxiliary page.  Wikidemo 20:18, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tagging for review? 

message: Why does the article have to be written in such arcane terminology and language? What exactly is a free content license (I tried clicking the link and it brought me to a page of links, do I have to read them all?! I think a lot of pages on Wikipedia need the "too technical tag" including this one. You shouldn't have to be a law school graduate! The snare 07:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A free content license is a license under which content (i.e. works of art, literature, software, etc) is released with the freedom to do lots of things that are usually forbidden by "non-free" licenses. The Free content license page starts with a link to the free content page, which explains in more depth. I have just made that intro a little longer and emphasised the link. Hope it helps. Sadly, there are shedloads of different licenses, each with legal differences to keep the gobblygook professionals employed for a lifetime. If you ever find a way to simplify these pages - be our guest! -- Steelpillow 19:33, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

text: General overview is, a free content license must permit the image to be copied, modified, and reused by anyone for any purpose without asking permission. It may require that anyone who uses the image attribute the copyright holder (for example, "Photo by John Doe"), and it may also require that any future copies remain under the same license. It may not disallow commercial/for-profit reuse, modification, or require permission to be given by the copyright holder for use. Some common examples of free licenses are the GNU Free Documentation License, which Wikipedia is licensed under, and the Creative Commons Attribution and Attribution/ShareAlike licenses. Hopefully that clears it up a bit? Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gobblygook! 

message: I just noticed  and am unsure whether it satisfies WP:NFC's rationale requirements.  Any thoughts? -- But|seriously|folks  19:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In no way does it pass as a valid rationale. Someone needs to delete it. βcommand 23:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll remove it.  --Yamla 23:11, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Nevermind.  I have just restored the content but with a warning.  Now, exactly what is the problem / issue, and how would you deal with the appx. 30-50 images that this has been used on?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikidemo (talk • contribs) 00:24, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Only one of those rationales is valid (that the person is deceased, rendering replaceability impossible). In any other case, using nonfree images of a living person fails #1, as the image is replaceable. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks as if this is only meant to be used for those who are not living. -- Ned Scott 04:53, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I can see situations where all parts of the rationale will be true, but I feel very reluctant to have these kinds of templates floating around. In the very least, having a template be configurable and requiring some form of input would be better, even for simple situations, as well as to encourage a more detailed rationale (if one is needed). -- Ned Scott 04:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to suggest moving this to  and including instructions on proper usage in the /doc. While rationales for images of deceased persons are generally uniform, there are special cases where any usage compromises commercial value. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 08:16, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  {{tl|Biorationale}}