Talk:Caucasian Albania/Archive 1

message: As I've noted in the edit history, "Caucasian Albania" gets 643 Google hits, Aghbania gets 137 and Alwania gets only 15. Nikola 07:08, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

message: I have added a refference to  Moses Kalankaytuk about invention of Albanian alphabet by Mesrob Mashtots:
: According to Moses Kalankaytuk, the Albanian alphabet was invented by Mesrob Mashdots, an Armenian monk, theologian and linguist (see Moses Kalankaytuk, "The History of Aluank", I, 27 and III, 24).
I also added the external link to the book "The History of Aluank" by Moses Kalankaytuk: Movses Kalankatuatsi. "The History of Aluank" (http://www.vehi.net/istoriya/armenia/kagantv/index.html). Translated from old Armenian (Grabar) by Sh.V.Smbatian, Yerevan, 1984 (In Russian). 
 
All known facts should be mentioned, if you affraid... 
: Regards, Rovoam 05:38, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  About invention of Albanian Alphabet 

message: Yes, it is true - Artsakh was part of Albania! But it is also true that before it was part of Armenia and before  -  even Urartu.
:Other editors: Please, see this post from Nagorno-Karabakh talkpage in which I give succint info and also bring maps of ancient Urartu to prove falseness of Rovoam's allegations. Also look at this post for background info on Rovoam's intentions. This user's recent actions are currently investigated by ArbCom, for details, please see here--Tabib 09:30, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
:: Tabib, one of the map of Urartu actually covers the area of Karabakh during VIII c. BC, isn't it? It seems to me it covers even much bigger area... Take your glasses and see for yourself:
<removed link to deleted image>
::And please remember - you published this map, not me! 
:: And another thought. Do you think all these maps of Urartu are correct? Don't you know or assume, that those maps are just a reconstruction and very rough estimate? Have you ever asked yourself when people invented the first map? Do we have any Urartian or Assyrian ancient maps? Think about all of these issues! Then you'll understand, how weak your arguments are! 
::Rovoam 00:39, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Artsakh and Albania 

message: Tabib! I have a question for you. There are a lot of Christians churches and other monuments in Artsakh, and those monuments are VERY old (V c, X c, etc). And there are just few Muslim monuments, and all of them are much younger (the oldest was built on XVIII century). How do you explain this?
You may say, perhaps, that those ancient Christians monuments were built by Albanians, not by Armenians. But how you explain Armenian inscriptions on ALL of these ancient monuments? Most of these inscriptions were done at the time, when those monuments were first built. For example, in Gandzasar monastery there are Armenian inscriptions, which were made by the founder of the place (by the prince Hasan Jalalyan), i.e. they are dated XIII century.  If builders were Albanians, why don't we see some Albanians inscriptions (in addition or instead of Armenians)? - However, there are thousands of Armenians inscriptions everywhere in Karabakh and none of Albanians. Why? How would you expalin this?! At least to yourself? Or you don't care about actual facts, do you?! Rovoam 00:24, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Those  ancient Christians monuments were build by the Caucasian Albanians, back then they were among the first Christians. The Caucasian Albanian Kick Church dates back to the first century. Its the oldest Christian Church in the Caucasus and among the oldest in the world.
I second that, if you look at what date those monument were build you would find out that most date back to AD 550. Thats because during that time Albanian meliks were overthrow and their role of Christianity weakened in the country the prayers were conducted in Armenian language in the churches, Albanian language was oppressed and led out. Next time do some research of your own please. Baku87 19:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What Albanians have in Artsakh? - There are no traces of their presence! 

message: * The History of the Caucasian Albanians by Movses Dasxuranci, trans. from old Armenian by C. J. F. Dowsett, London: Oxford University Press, 1961.
----
“Caucasian Albania and Armenian conquests” section should be edited. It does not make much sense. It insists that Albanians were “assimilated politically and culturally” by Armenians, while one of the Albanian tribes, Udis, lives in Azerbaijan to this day. Udis are a living proof of the baselessness of such statement. Udis are not Armenians, their language belongs to Northeast Caucasian language family, and they are mostly Russian Orthodox by religion. They have their distinct culture and folklore. Statements such as “By the 8th century—following the assimilations—the term “Aghvank” lost its ethnic and political meaning” are far from factual accuracy. 
Also, the last paragraph of this section is clearly a propagandistic attack on Azeri side. Basically the purpose of such propaganda is to lay claims on some Azeri lands, therefore nationalistic circles in Armenia try to deny the existence of Albanian people and insist that they were completely assimilated by Armenians centuries ago, which is not true. I hope someone will edit this section and make it more consistent with the Wikipedia polices of NPOV. Grandmaster 10:10, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: I just editted the passage containing Movses Kaghankatvatsi's quotation from his "History of Aghvank, I.4, to clarify the context of Aran's inheritance of Aghvank. The old quotation makes it sound as if Aran "inheritted" the area from his parents, whereas he was appointed as the prince of Agvhank. Here is a translation of the complete chapter 4 from Russian. It's from the link contained at the end of the article pointing to Kaghankatvatsi's complete Russian translation (http://www.vehi.net/istoriya/armenia/kagantv/aluank1.html). I can see there are Azeri and Armenian users monitoring this article, so I assume they know Russian as well:) If you find any mistakes, feel free to correct.
Book 1, Chapter 4
Formation of the Principality of Aghvank by Vagharshak
Here starts the history of the principality of the country of Aghvank. From the beginning of the creation of the human race to the Armenian king Vagharshak, we cannot tell anything reliable to the listeners about those who live near the high mountains of Caucasus. Upon establishing order among the northern residents, he called representatives of savage tribes, living in the northern plain and in the foothills of Caucasus mountains, in the plains and gorges to the south, to the place where a valley begins, and ordered them to stop violence and godlessness, and to obediently pay royal tributes. Then the king appointed chiefs and rulers to them, a leader of whose, by Vagharshak's order, was appointed someone from the family of Sisakan, one of the descendants of Yafet, named Aran, who inherited the plains and mountains of Albania beginning from the river Yeraskh (Araks) up to the castle of Hunarakert. After Aran's soft taste, this country was called Aghvank, as due to his soft taste he was called Aghu. Many brave and wise descendants of this Aran, as they say, were appointed by Vagharshak Partev as his subordinates (vice-princes) and generals (of groups of thousands).--TigranTheGreat 07:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Movses Kaghankatvatsi's passage 

message: I just made a correction to the part of the article that stated "according to strabo, Armenia was a small country at the sources of euphrates and tigris." Strabo never limits Armenia to the sources of the two rivers, and in fact he says that one of the two parts of Armenia, the one inheritted by Artashes, was around the city of Artashat (which is in southern Transcaucasia, modern Armenia). Here is the full passage.
[5] According to report, Armenia, though a small country in earlier times, was enlarged by Artaxias and Zariadris, who formerly were generals of Antiochus the Great,9 but later, after his defeat, reigned as kings (the former as king of Sophene, Acisene, Odomantis, and certain other countries, and the latter as king of the country round Artaxata), and jointly enlarged their kingdoms by cutting off for themselves parts of the surrounding nations,--I mean by cutting off Caspiane and Phaunitis and Basoropeda from the country of the Medes; and the country along the side of Mt. Paryadres and Chorsene and Gogarene, which last is on the far side of the Cyrus River, from that of the Iberians; and Carenitis and Xerxene, which border on Lesser Armenia or else are parts of it, from that of the Chalybians and the Mosynoeci; and Acilisene and the country round the Antitaurus from that of the Cataonians; and Taronitis from that of the Syrians; and therefore they all speak the same language, as we are told. Strabo, Geography, 11.14.5
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0198&layout=&loc=11.14.1
Also, Strabo doesn't say Armenia was small originally, only in "earlier times," which means before Artashes and Zariadris expanded it, which is early II c BC. In fact he earlier states that Armenia was a large country ruling "whole of Asia" before Median king Astiages, which is around 600 BC, which is consistent with Movses Khorenatsi's account of Armenia's king Paruyr Skayordi defeating Assyrians and taking Ninveh in 600's, and being a powerful king (along with the subsequent kings Hrachya and Tigran Yervandyan).
[5] In ancient times Greater Armenia ruled the whole of Asia, after it broke up the empire of the Syrians, but later, in the time of Astyages, it was deprived of that great authority by Cyrus and the Persians, although it continued to preserve much of its ancient dignity; and Ecbatana was winter residence4 for the Persian kings, and likewise for the Macedonians who, after overthrowing the Persians, occupied Syria; and still today it affords the kings of the Parthians the same advantages and security. Strabo, Geography, 11.13.5
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0198&layout=&loc=11.13.1
--TigranTheGreat 07:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Corrections on Strabo's quotations on Armenia 

message: I just corrected the date in the article referring to Movses Kaghankatvatsi's account of creation of Principality of Aghvank by king Vagharshak. Vagharshak ruled in early II c. BC, according to data given us by numerous ancient Armenian historians, including Movses Kaghankatvatsi. Here is an exceprt from his "History of Aghvank", I.3:
:[coming] from the family of these Parthians, there were 26 kings in Armenia - from Vagharshak till Artashir, son of Vramshapuh. Ruled they for 620 years. Here the the rule of the Arshakuni dynasty as well as the patriarchy of the family of St. Grigor were cut off. I.3 (http://www.vehi.net/istoriya/armenia/kagantv/aluank1.html)
The Russian text at the site reads:
:Из [рода] этих парфян в Армении царствовало двадцать шесть царей – от Валаршака до Арташира, сына Врамшапуhа. Царствовали они шестьсот двадцать лет. Тут прекратилось царствование [династии] Аршакидов и патриаршество рода святого Григора.
The Arshakuni dynasty ended in 428 ad. This places Vagharshak at 192 BC. Exactly when Artashes started ruling according to Western accounts, leading to many historians conclude that Vagharshak was another name given to Artashes.
Khorenatsi too is talking about that time when he writes about Aran founding Aghvank ("History of Armenia" II.8. Actually Kaghankatvatsi took Khorenatsi's account almost verbatim).--TigranTheGreat 00:07, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correction of date when Aran founded Aghvank 

message: I've moved this back to Caucasian Albania per request of Nikola, who got this a bit muddled  I agree with the move.  It seems to be by far the most popular usage in English, still (see the top of the page).  For example, it is used by this website here , which is appears to be a specialist website on the history of the region.  None of the other spellings seem to stand out in any way - 'Aghbania' seems to be a particularly rare form.  If there is evidence otherwise, I should be glad to see it. Morwen - Talk 13:55, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Move

message: Shouldn't the ancient Albanian Christian lectionary translated by prof.Zaza Aleksidze be mentioned in this article?128.214.205.4 17:27, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not? Grandmaster 19:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Palimpsest

message: This article claims that Albanians were completely assimilated by 8th  century, but see this quote from Chronicles by Zachariah Kanakertsi, 17th century Armenian historian:
Some man from the tribe of alvans, who are now called udis, from the alvanian town of Gandzak, went to the holy monastery of Gandzasar, where the residence of alvanian catholicos is located, and became a disciple of Catholicos Ovannes. 
Закарий Канакерци. Хроника.
Некий человек из племени алван, которых ныне зовут удинами, из алванского города Гандзака, отправился в Святую обитель Гандзасара, где находится престол алванского католикоса, и стал учеником католикоса Ованнеса. 
This should be corrected. Udis live in Azerbaijan to this day. Grandmaster 07:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assimilation 

message: That map is ridiculous. C.Albania never had such borders. Especially in the 5th-8th centuries.--Eupator 13:42, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If it ever had such borders, that'd be after the 4th century, and the given time frame seems perfectly accurate. Personally I don't see anything wrong with the map. Parishan 05:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the old map was more accurate.  If you look at any map from this period you will see the distinct borders between Albania, Armenia, and Iberia.  At no point in its history did Albania ever have rule over Nakhichevan, Lake Sevan, or even Paytakaran.  I have noted that maps showing Albania with such borders can only be found on extremely pro-Azerbaijani websites which hope to claim the provinces of Syunik, Vayots Dzor, and Gegharkunik from present-day Armenia. -- Clevelander 15:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Paytakaran is mentioned in v.1, ch.12 of Moses of Kalankatuyk's History of Aluank as a part of Caucasian Albania in the 4th century. So is Syunik (v.2, ch.28 - 7th century), which back then included Vayots Dzor as well. Not so sure about Nakhichevan. Parishan 00:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just read it. It speaks of a certain Sanatruk, who rebelled in the city of Paytakaran against Armenians with Sassanid support.--Eupator 02:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. It also says that the city of Paytakaran was situated in Caucasian Albania. The city is believed by many scholars (e.g. Patkanian) to be present-day Beylagan (Azerbaijan). Parishan 02:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: It was from an Azerbaijani source (I believe EuroCaspian.Com). -- Clevelander 14:24, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Could you please provide a link for it? It is unclear to what period in history it relates. Grandmaster 05:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: This chapter of Talkpage was initially created by user:Jalalleddin at the beginning of page instead of bottom. I moved it in proper place.--Dacy69 03:09, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice copy-paste work on Armenian websites. You might as well provide a link. Grandmaster 06:28, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jalaleddin POV 

message: Allah-u akbar!
• If I hear no answers to these comments soon, someone will need to go back and post my version of the text in its entirety. The text must account for the profoundness of Armenian cultural, ethnic and political presence in “Caucasian Albania.” The article is in a very bad shape. 
• Everyone who studies “Caucasian Albania” has to understand that the only more or less complete text devoted to that country is called “The History of the Land of Aghvank” (Պատմություն Աղվանից Աշխարհի). Like “The History of of Taron” (Պատմություն Տարոնի) by Hovhannes Magistros, Stephanos Orbelian's "History of Siunik" or “The History of the House of Artzrunids” by Tovma Artzruni – it is a historiy of an Armenian-held feudal possession. All these lands did not need to be part of a unified Armenian state to be considered Armenian. In the Middle Ages , if you were not a huge empire, you would likely end up being a small kinglet. National states in the modern sense did not exist in the Middle Ages (perhaps Armenia was one of the few exceptions). Krakow did not need to be part of a state called "Poland" in order to be considered a Western Slavic state. Crete did not need to be part of a state called "Greece" (which never existed before 1821) in order to be viewed as a Greek land.
The kings of "Caucasian Albania" were among the multitude of Armenian princes and dukes, like King of Vaspurakan, King of Siunik, King of Lore-Tashir, King of Kars or King of Ani. All of these Armeno-Albanian kings had Armenian names, which are in wide use even today! Artzvaghen/Արծվաղեն, Vache/Վաչե, Vachagan/Վաչագան  etc. There are hundreds and hundreds of Vaches and Vachagans walking the streets of Yerevan, Stepanakert or Los-Angeles.
You have to understand, people, that “The History of the Land of Aghvank” is Armenian page by page, name by name, settlement by settlement, event by event, term by term. Everything, no exceptions. There is very little - if anything - non-Armenian there. The only things that are different are the unique political identity of Armeno-Albanians and the passage about the Gargarean alphabet. Read these three texts in Armenian or in any other language, and compare them. 
• “The History of the Land of Aghvank” contains one of the finest examples of early medieval Armenian poetry — “The Elegy on the Passing of the Grand Prince Jivanshir” attributed to Davtak Kertogh. Each passage of the “Elegy” begins with a letter of the Armenian script, in alphabetical order. There is a stupid propaganda claim (based on a methodological blooper - conspiracy theory) that the original of “The History of the Land of Aghvank” was not written in Armenian, and that evil Armenians later "destroyed" that original and re-wrote the "History." But then how to explain the the unique shape and design of the “Elegy's”???
• All toponyms in the book are Armenian, and all first names are Armenian as well – most of which are in use to this day. All churches on the territory of “Caucasian Albania” have unique Armenian designs, and are covered by inscriptions in Armenian (which Azerbaijanis try to erase, like the infamous incident with church in Kish that outraged the Norwegians who financed its restoration).
• Some churches on the territory of “Caucasian Albania” are carbon copies of analogous churches in central Armenia. Go to Google Images and see for yourself. The cathedral in Gandzasar is closely resembling the cathedral in Harich (Harij) and the main church of Hovhannavank. Basilica Tzitzernavank, Amaras, etc. - they are identical. But this is also true about the churches in Kutkashen (oops - an Armenian toponym!), Vardashen (oops, another Armenian toponym!), Belakan (oops, Armenian toponym again!), Shirvan (another Armenian-sounding toponym), Axsu, Agdash, etc. 
• The origin of Aran from Sisak – a grandson of Haik – shows the Armenian connection in “Caucasian Albania.”
• Stop vandalizing and mispronouncing Armenian names like “Movses Kalankaytuk.” His name was Movses Kaghankatvatzi, meaning Movses from [the settlement of] Kaghankatuyk. The ruins of Kaghankatuyk are in Nagorno Karabakh near the village of Mataghes. When mentioning his name, provide the Armenian-lettered equivalent - Մովսես Կաղանկատվացի (you may copy/paste it from here). Similarly, change Aguen/Aluen to Aghven (Աղվեն)- the way it is in the Grabar-based phonetics of "The History..." When Armenian scholars were translating "The History..." into Russian, they replaced "gh" (Ղ) with (struck-L), because in Russian there is no "gh."
• About Artsakh. Artsakh, once the 10th prefecture of the Kingdom of Greater Armenia, became part of the Armeno-Albanian state. 
• Armenians of Armeno-Albanian state were not Armenian enough, so to say, in a modern sense. That's why "Caucasian Albania" is a poltically unique phenomenon. They spoke Armenian, but they tried to be politically different from Armenia and they built their own Armenian church of “Caucasian Albania” (which soon became one of several Catholicosates of the Armenian Apostolic Church). The fact is there were several Armenian Churches. And in the Middle Ages there were several autonomous Armenian Catholicosates - one in Vagharshapat (Ejmitzin, the main one, the Holy See), one in Khachen/Karabakh (Catholicosate of Aghvank), one in Cilicia, and one in Akhtamar (on the Lake Van). They were autonomous because rulers of these lands wanted to be autonomous.
Compare this with modern “Azerbaijanis.” The Turko-Islamic population of, let’s say, Khanate of Shirvan, was not “Azerbaijani” in a modern sense but culturally and ethnologically these people were predecessors of today's “Azerbaijanis.” Pskov was a Russian principality but if you asked medieval Pskovian or Novgorod-based Slavs if they were "Russian," they would have likely shrugged shoulders and looked perplexed. 
• Furthermore, in the early Middle Ages, Armenians from Artsakh and Utik probably were not Armenian enough in a cultural sense either. They must have felt what modern Belarusians feel toward modern Russians - "brotherly peoples". That added to their feeling of political uniqueness and desire to be autonomous from the King of Armenia. Despite the evidence to the contrary, it is possible that there was a number of various Armenian peoples - let's remember also that Armenians of the past were a very big civilization. Vaspurakan in the 10th century (on the Lake Van) had a population of some 0.5 million while the entire Britain of that time had a population of 0.2 million. The capital city of Ani had 100,000 residents at its peak - it rivaled Constantinopole and Bagdad, and was one of the biggest cities of the time.
• Attempts to say that Armeno-Albanians after 387 AD were not an Armenian civilization is the same as to say that Venetians were not Italians because they never said “we are Italians.” 
• Before and after 387 AD “Caucasian Albania” was an Armenian land and an Armenian state for all means and purposes. That Armenian-managed country stretched from the Lake Sevan to the Caspian Sea. 
• Despite “Caucasian Albania” was an Armenian country, a portion - perhaps a large portion - of its population was non-Armenian (like Udis, who survived to this day). Non-Armenians of “Caucasian Albania” were so primitive and disorganized that they failed to create a single culture. But they needed unity nonetheless, and that unity was provided by the Armenian Church and Armenian culture. However, one of the Ibero-Caucasian tribes – the Gargareans – evidently had a developed enough culture to ask Mesrob Mashtotz to invent for them an alphabet, which Mashtotz did. But the tide of assimilation by Armenians eventually supplanted the drive for Gargarean cultural uniqueness. Gargarean alphabet has never been used. 
• Ancient “Caucasian Albania” is the “Atlantis of the Caucasus” – nothing is known about it. Almost nothing - a few words from a Greek or Roman dude. Ibero-Albanians (all those Utians, Gargareans, Lipians and Caspians,to name the few) were already on their last legs by the 5th centuey AD. What we know about “Caucasian Albania” is about the Armeno-Albania not the “Ibero-Albania.” No unique “Caucasian Albania” culture or statehood survived the conquests by Armenians from Artsakh – everything was assimilated, suppressed or destroyed very early in the Middle Ages. 
• About the Udis/Udins. Udis are often portrayed by Azerbaijani propagandists as “the real” descendents of “Caucasian Albanians,” which is right to a certain extent but Udis never preserved an identity or memory of being part of Albania/Aghvank. There is nothing. If Udis are descendents of “Caucasian Albanians" - then Armenians and Urartians must be the same. But Udis survived Armenian and Muslim assimilations. However, as well, Udis are a living testimony of how profound Armenian cultural influence on “Caucasian Albania” really was. The majority of Udis (called "Armenian Udis" - Հայ Ուտիներ) belong to the Armenian Apostolic Church (with minority being Greek Orthodox). Their names are Armenian , or include Armenian roots. Their language, while Ibero-Caucasian, has many Armenian words. Udis gave the Armenian people many important cultural and political figures, like: Sargis Kukunian (Armenian guerilla fighter, born in the village of Nij, organized an expedition into Turkish Armenia in 1890), Major-General Movses Silikian (who fought against the Turks in 1918), etc.
 الله اكب- Allah-u akbar, 
with best wishes,
Jalaleddin
:Jalaleddin, first you need to learn some simple technical rules in Wiki. You should paste new discussion at the bottom of the page, after previous topics. And after comments pls click on the tenth button from the left - it will include your signiture automatically.
And now about your claim. Here in Wiki we need references. All your assumptions (your entire text is without any refrences to reputable sources and work) is called OR (original research) in Wiki, which has no place in this encyclopedia. Please click at that link  and read. I strongly advise you to read fully Wikipedia rules. I don't want even to discuss your comments because it is completely out of Wiki rules. You may make your arguments on your personal webpage.--Dacy69 21:15, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Armeno-Albanians and Jalaleddin's Comments (which remain undiscussed...)

message: Jalaleddin's remarks contain very interesting original research indeed, but by and large they reflect a self-obvious reality that does not need references - nothing of "Cauasian Albanians" really survived but their Armenian heritage. That fact shuld feature prominently in this article. best regards. Zurbagan 23:02, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, interesting understanding of consensus building. Grandmaster 21:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Puppets or not, it's the truth. Where were Azeris during this period? Was there a Khankendi during this period? Hakob 21:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caucasian "Albanians" or Armenians?