Talk:2007 Georgian demonstrations

message: This article can be helpful for the section. Also, I think the article suffers from serious POV issues. It should also mention Badri Patarkatsishvili's controversial role in the event.--KoberTalk 14:19, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: lack of info is not POV. It just needs to be added... --TheFEARgod (Ч) 15:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Background 

message: I removed the HRW comment as the organization represented by the unknown spokesperson is hardly involved in Georgian policy isssues, and that the comment adds very little to the article. --Camptown 10:34, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is Sweden's reaction present then? It is also in no way involved in "Georgian policy isssues". HRW is a respectable organisation and I don't understand why was its position deleted. Alæxis¿question? 10:43, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because Carl Bildt is one of the key persons in creating ties between Georgia and the European Union. --Camptown 10:50, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: HRW 

message: To Pocopoco:
1. Ambassadors are not members of the government. Your interpretation of Mikeladze’s resignation as a split within the government of Georgia is a blatant original research. And the passage was inserted in an absolutely inappropriate section.  
2. Your source for the alleged reason of Mikeladze’s resignation is an obscure website which cites “www.resistancegeorgia.blogspot.com, an anti-Saakashvili blog” as its source. There’s little doubt that such a source cannot be considered valid. Itar-Tass is a state-owned news agency of the Russian Federation and it can hardly be considered impartial when it comes to Georgia. Furthermore, your sources also say that the Georgian MFA has not given any official explanation, but you have obviously "forgotten" to include it for the sake of NPOV.--KoberTalk 05:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mikeladze's resignation 

message: Reactions from France, Britain, Germany are available  . Can anyone add? Tamokk 06:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reactions 

message: I'm inviting Russian-speaking users to watch this interview with Valeriya Novodvorskaya. She's much more credible expert than certain politically motivated bloggers cited here.--KoberTalk 06:07, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Interview with [[Valeriya Novodvorskaya]]

message: Pocopo, You've failed to prove why this blog run by political activists is so important to the article, and I've never suggested adding any pro-gov't links there. If you want to load the article with external links, you can add the official websites of Georgian opposition parties. Again, political blogs with well-established agenda are not acceptable sources for decent encyclopedic articles.--KoberTalk 17:53, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I take issue with your accusations of spamming. Read WP:LINKSPAM to learn what qualifies as link spamming. I never said it was "so important" to the article but external links aren't usually "so important" to the article but represent further reading. Like it or not, Dolidze has become a notable figure in the opposition. . Show me the policy that states that external links must only be official sites? Just because a site has an agenda doesn't mean that it must be excluded from the external links as long as the other side is also added (which I added from the link you provided above). By your reasoning, abkhazia.com should be removed from all the Abkhazia related articles as it's a site with an agenda. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 22:17, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Abkhazia.com is an institution representing one of the sides involved in the conflict. It is not a political blog. Your comparison is absolutely irrelevant here. According to WP:LINKSPAM: "Adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed." And this is exactly what you are trying to do. Yes, Dolidze has emerged as a moderately notable figure in the opposition although she claims that she does not really care about any opposition party in Georgia. But this does not qualify her blog as a reliable source for the subject, and makes her very biased especially given the aggressive language of that blog.--KoberTalk 05:17, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And what evidence do you have that I'm trying to promote the website? Frankly I couldn't care less if the website gets promoted or not but I believe its a worthwhile addition to the external links. Your repeated assertions that I am spamming is an WP:ATTACK. External links do not have to qualify under WP:RS only WP:EL and this blog qualifies. As mentioned, being a biased source is not reason to exclude it from the external links as long as the external links are balanced with both sides. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 05:27, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Making article about current event always must be carefully. All media doing it evry day. They have many sources, and they have to check them and provied an article about the current events. They have more instruments to check the source to comper them with each other, to sent reporter ect. I am sure that they will be glad to informs us about killing of demonstrators in Tbilisi. not because they hate Georia but because they like sensation. No media report it, so we as wikipedia should not do it. therefor I agree the resistance georgia blog in external links. Geagea (talk) 00:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  resistance georgia blog in external links 

message: I sketched a new section. I suggest to include in it all the human rights issues, concerns of those bloggers etc. Tamokk (talk) 04:53, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Issues I can think of right now include:
*Using excessive force by the riot police (also afaik some non law enforcement elements were allegedly detected violating the protesters)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tamokk (talk • contribs) 05:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Good idea. I think we should also add electoral issues, that a snap election has been called with no real independent media, intimidation of opposition figures, and insufficient time for the opposition to prepare for the elections. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New section 

message: The story is that the murder occured near Patarkatsishvili's estate and that Patarkatsishvili saw Girgvliani being driven away on his remote camera system as they drove by his estate. This is supposed to be the spark that initiated him to fund the opposition. I will look up the source for this when I get a chance. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 19:06, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Loool... Is this a fairy tale or what? Patarkatsishvili had his reasons and interest to fund the opposition. Do you really think that the guy with such a marky past was so moved by the murder scene that he decided to change the government? Are you really that naïve? --KoberTalk 20:26, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're the last person that should make suggestions of naïveté in others. It's a well know fact that the current Georgian government was perfectly happy accepting Badri's support until he started asking too many questions about that murder trial. Besides, is there anyone in a power position today in the former Soviet Union that doesn't have a murky past? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Believe in that if you want. You seem to have an oversimplified vision of power struggles in politics, and I'm not going to destroy it. But the only thing I would ask you is to bring more sources (other than blogs operated by political activists, of course) when delivering lectures about the history and politics of my own country, and when making your assertions like "it's a well know fact that..." --KoberTalk 05:33, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately the article I was looking for was on imedinews.ge and that looks like it's been fubar'd for good. It's also on the resistance blog but you'll probably revert that on site. Anyhow, there's plenty of stuff (not as good) on civil.ge plus other wiki articles and I will add it when I get a chance. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Patarkastishvili has spoken why did he support the protests. We can only write what he said, not what he thought, or why he thought, that's unencyclopedic. Tamokk (talk) 08:10, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Sandro Girgvliani Murder Case]] and [[Badri Patarkatsishvili]] 

message: Resolution 1524:
There are more similar resolutions. Hence to be neutral, "Russian-backed" must not be added.  It also doesn't really add any additional content to the article as these de facto states were added for the purpose of illustrating the conflict between Okruashvili and Saakashvili. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:24, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: UN diplomatic language does not necessarily reflect the reality. You know this perfectly well and please be honest. If you want to apply highly refined diplomatic and "politically correct" language to Russia, I'd ask you to do the same in Georgia's case. UN resolutions don't call Abkhazia "de facto independent republic", and let's remove this definition from all Abkhazia-related articles. --KoberTalk 05:56, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't matter what you or I honestly think, what matters is sources and NPOV. I have removed the de facto de jure stuff from this article per your concerns. If you want any other articles to have the de facto de jure stuff removed, I would suggest that you get a consensus in talk and I might even support you. Also, putting aside the fact that it's a POV, how does saying Russian backed actually improve this article? By that same token could the article on the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria be called Georgian backed as Gamsakhurdia recognized it and offered moral support and perhaps more? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 22:31, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  UN resolutions 

message: I don't want to get into a whole debate about how they should be worded however I will add below from the U.N. report called  Nations in Transit 1999-2000: Country Report of Georgia:
The point wasn't about getting into a debate on how the UN words things but on what is POV and what is NPOV. Calling these territories Russian backed can be considered a POV due to an origanization like the UN commending Russia for it's conduct with respect to these territories. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:44, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An origanization like the UN officially titles Abkhazia as "Abkhazia, Georgia". Are you ready to apply this definition to all Abkhazia-related articles?--KoberTalk 05:02, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And how is that relevant to the discussion on whether "Russian-backed" should be added in front of these republics? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 18:12, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Poco, could you please give an answer to a few simple questions: Does Russia support Abkhazia and SO? Yes or no? If yes, is it verifiable in sources? If yes, why should not we mention that in the article? Just because you don't like it? --KoberTalk 18:40, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Russia supports Abkhazia and SO but also acts as a facilitator for a peaceful solution as well as a peacekeeper. There are sources that support all of this and I have mentioned a few above. We don't need to add Russian-backed to the article as it is POV, if we add something to the article to the effect that Abkhazia is Russian-backed we also need to add that Russia acts as a peacekeeper and a facilitator for a peaceful solution to the conflict. All of this is irrelevant anyway (as I mentioned above as well as the edit summary) because Abkhazia and SO  was added to the article to describe the conflict between Saakashvili and Okruashvili hence there's no need add any of this to the article as it doesn't improve the article in any way. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 21:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Russian-backing of Abkh and SO is not POV, but a fact of life. You even acknowledge it yourself. Do not see the need to hide it. (PaC (talk) 03:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And after such a stubborn edit-warring, Poco calls for a compromise? --KoberTalk 05:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My position hasn't changed, leave out "Russian-backed". I've offered sources and good reasons as to why. All you guys said in response was "Well it is Russian backed". Am I wasting my time discussing things with you and Papa Carlo? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:41, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope. You still have to prove why we should leave out "Russian-backed". The refined diplomatic language of the UN resolutions (several articles of which are directly dictated by Russia) points to Russia's peacekeeping role, but even this eulogy does not exclude the Kremlin's support to Abkhazia. And you seem to agree with what we said: "Well, yes, it is Russian backed (but I don't want/I don't like to mention it)". Futhermore, we can reference this statement. But I think it is not going very helpful since noone, including you, has ever doubted in Russian support to the separatists.--KoberTalk 05:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Btw, this article needs an urgent attention of our democracy activists.--KoberTalk 05:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Wording by the UN wrt Abkhazia and South Ossetia

message: I do not think you can take other editors' comments out just because you do not like them Poco. Put them back.(PaC (talk) 03:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry if your and Kober's feelings were hurt that I requested a checkuser. The Request for Comment on whether Russian-backed should be added to this article is not the appropriate place to complain about it. Please pick a more appropriate forum. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One more time Poco. DO NOT move other users comments out of discussion especially when explicitly asked not to do it! Let other readers decide whether or not they are relevant. And yes I do believe that you falsely accusing Kober of sockpuppetry right after you failed to prove your point on this issue is relevant to this discussion. Cheers. (PaC (talk) 04:31, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One more time PaC. Do not clutter the RFC with complaints about my checkuser request. It is not appropriate. We are asking a third party about the content of this article and the checkuser request is not part of the content of the article. Don't waste the time and make things more confusing to the helpful 3rd party that is trying help us with the content of this article. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What really is not appropriate is your moving other editors comments out of discussion when you do not like them. Please discontinue this disruptive behavior at once.(PaC (talk) 05:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Checkuser complaints in RFC

message: Until disputes are resolved or until January 7th, 2008, the page has been protected.  The current version of the page is not an endorsement of content.  Please remember to resolve your disputes civilly. --slakr\ talk / 06:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page protected 

message: actually there were at least 150,000 protesters in the Rustaveli Ave. from november 2-3. 2007
It was calculated by the scientistcs, who calculated the amount of people standing on 1 Square meter.
:"by scientists"? Sounds convincing! :)--KoberTalk 17:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "scientistcs": maybe you meant something connected to scientology? (joke.) --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:31, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  50,000 protesters 

message: There is an absolute dubious statement in this article. Saakashvili had made it part of his agenda to reincorporate them through peaceful means. It is going to take some solid reputable sources to back that statement up. Additionally, I have removed Georgia-Russia relations category from the article, as it has nothing to do with Russia, and everything to do with Saakashvili and gang being corrupt and the public not putting up with it, and the crackdown on the public. Nothing at all to do with Russia. --Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 07:50, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.civil.ge/eng/detail.php?id=16262
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-05-26 02:47:47, 404 Not Found
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-05-27 15:04:52, 404 Not Found
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-06-15 13:53:29, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 13:53, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/09/26/ap4157991.html
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-05-26 02:47:47, 404 Not Found
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thread_title:  Dead link 2 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.civil.ge/eng/detail.php?id=15884
** In Java (town) on 2011-05-03 07:27:37, 404 Not Found
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-05-26 02:47:47, 404 Not Found
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-05-27 15:04:57, 404 Not Found
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--JeffGBot (talk) 13:54, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 3 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/11/07/georgia.crisis.ap/index.html
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-05-26 02:47:56, 404 Not Found
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-05-27 15:04:57, 404 Not Found
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--JeffGBot (talk) 13:54, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 4 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.civil.ge/eng/detail.php?id=16267
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-05-26 02:47:56, 404 Not Found
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-05-27 15:04:59, 404 Not Found
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-06-15 13:54:08, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 13:54, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 5 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.interfax.com/3/459460/news.aspx
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-05-26 02:47:56, 404 Not Found
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-05-27 15:04:59, 404 Not Found
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-06-15 13:54:18, 404 Not Found
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thread_title:  Dead link 6 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2007/nov/94760.htm
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-05-26 02:47:56, 404 Not Found
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-05-27 15:04:59, 404 Not Found
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-06-15 13:54:30, 404 Not Found
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thread_title:  Dead link 7 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.civil.ge/eng/detail.php?id=16198
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-05-26 02:47:56, 404 Not Found
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-05-27 15:04:59, 404 Not Found
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-06-15 13:54:38, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 13:55, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 8 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.president.gov.ge/video/movie.php?l=E&m=demonstration2.wmv
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-05-26 02:47:56, 404 Not Found
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-05-27 15:04:59, 404 Not Found
** In 2007 Georgian demonstrations on 2011-06-15 13:54:47, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 13:55, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 9 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified