Talk:Islamic view of the Trinity

message: Which part is POV? </br>
Blubberbrein2 10:53, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It does not include the opinion of all scholars. I or other editors should work on it. Quran talks a lot about trinity. The article is incomplete at the moment I think --Aminz 11:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Valentinians and Ophites cannot be taken as any example of a widespread "Christian" belief in anything, because those people were uninhibited Gnostics who often claimed to reverence Jesus in some way (along with many others that they also reverenced) but had extremely little in common with any form of real mainstream Christianity.  If Muslims drag in the Valentinians and Ophites, I could drag in Hassan-i-Sabah, the Qarmatians, Hurufism, Druze, Alawites, Qadianism and the Bahais -- none of this has much relevance to mainstream Christianity (in the first case) or to mainstream Islam (in the second case).
Out-and-out "Mariolatry" was simply not ever a widespread Christian doctrine at any time (though some practices of popular piety among the uneducated approached Mariolatry in some times and places, this was never approved of by Christian scholars). AnonMoos 17:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Problems with page

message: I think the article is quite misleading. It presents the Qur'an as claiming that the Christian Trinity consists of God, Mary and Jesus instead of God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus, but the Qur'an makes no so such claim. The verses given here criticize the worship of Jesus and Mary (which is widely practiced by Catholics to this day (From my own experience, as I am from a Catholic background, I was taught a prayer adressed to Mary) and I think it is actually part of the Catholic creed, see the Wikipedia article titled "Marian doctrines of the Catholic Church" or also this page link
) ; but they do not define Trinity, nor do they explicitely identify it with God-Mary-Jesus.
From what I found by looking quickly on the Internet, it does not seem to be a common Muslim belief that the Christian Trinity consists of God, Mary and Jesus. See these articles for example link or link title. On the other hand, it seems to me that this is rather a claim from Christian polemicists to prove that the Qur'an cannot possibly have a divine origin (the logic being that if the author of the Qur'an had a crooked knowledge of Christian beliefs, it can therefore not be the all-knowing God). Have a look at this for example: link title.
Now, what is the mainstream Islamic understanding of the doctrine of Trinity? It would be nice if the claims the article make be justified by quotations from leading Muslim scholars (I mean 'Ulamas or the like). Otherwise, non-sourced polemical and controversial stuff should, I think, be removed, or explained more in detail (but this would require the article ot be thoroughly sourced as well).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.247.85.103 (talk) 22:36, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The question is indeed not whether modern Muslims believe that Christians consider the Trinity to be God-Jesus-Mary, but whether the Qur'an does.
It is a simple concept that people seem to have a hard time getting their head around. The Quran, since the beginning of it's existence, teaches one belief concerning God and one belief only. That God is one, with no partners ascribed, or any partners associated. 
When Muslims take the shahada - the testimony that brings them into Islam - they are declaring, in other words, that God is one with no partners nor any associates (and that Muhammad SAW is his last messenger.) This Testimony of faith alone, which Islam is built upon, reject the mere idea of the Trinity. There is absolutely no confusion on this fact; The Quran as made it crystal clear and the Quran is not open for interpretation. 
There is no Trinity in Islam. Evercat (talk) 22:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced controversial stuff 

message: Quote:
[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak)the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist,it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son,.....................
In the above cited verse, the possible members of trinity, according to their order in verse, could be;
1. Son + Mary + Father (Allah) = Isa + Marium + Allah (wordings according to verse)
2. Father + Holy Spirit (word)+ Mary = His + Word + Marium
3. Son + Father + Holy Spirit = Messiah, Isa son of Marium + Allah + Word
If we just try to make all other possible sets of trinity from the verse, disreagrding the order, then we get following sets;
1. Father + Sons (apostles) + Mary
2. Sons + Mary + Holy Spirit
3. Father + Holy Spirit + Sons
4. Son (son of god, a spirit) + Sons + Son (son of Mary)
5. and many more +++
One can easily notice that actually all possible forms of a christian trinity, be it of any sect or cult, are actually hidden in the verse and with just a little more consideration, one can figure out them easily. one may object that "Holy Spirit" is not mentioned in the verse. Well, the verse has used the phrase" His word which He communicated". We very well know that Holy Spirit or Gabriel is the only angel who performed the duty of ( communicating)messaging between God and earthlings. And in many places Quran has attributed Gabriel, the Holy Spirit as the one who delivers the words of God. Even if u dont accpet this, then we still have a last option, the word spirit itself. It can be taken as a synonym to Holy Spirit which actually should not be the case.
As a matter of fact, actually Quran condemns all forms of trinity and in its address to trinity, does not explicitly mentions the members, rather mentions the concept and this thing is in no way contradictory to the omniscience of the God. As we know time is kept on changing thus the beleifs of the past are not exactly the similar beliefs in present and the beliefs of present will not exactly be the similar beliefs in future; Thus it becomes evident that if an Omniscient God would have explicitly mentioned the members of trinity, it would have been restricted to the concept of trinity for that period only, be it in past or present, but, God has exhausted all the possibilities of trinity and its members in the concerned verses. It would be interesting to know that Hindus also have a concept of cosmic trinity of gods whose members are Brahma, the creator; Vishnu, the sustainer & Shiva, the destroyer. Now Hindus could also ask that why did not God mention the members explicitly? It was because of the diversity of cultures and era that God only explicitly mentioned the concept of Trinity, which is a common one but nowhere He has told the names of the members. So, it does prove in this case that God is indeed an omniscient entity and Quran appears to be its true-word.
As for Mary, the God has stressed that people should not worship Jesus and Mary and should not take them gods beside Allah. In this case, we can clearly understand that according to early christians , Mary was concieved as the Mother of Jesus, the Son God. This was a very potential designation for a person to be called as Mother of God, as it is recited in Hail O`Mary. Common people and especially females, could easily think that as Mary is the Mother of God so she is potentially more Important then the Son as she is the one who has begotten him, thus it could cause the worship of Mary and indeed it happened the same way and as u told, still in practice now a days. Thats why, Quran has explicitly mentioned that Neither Jesus nor Mary should be regarded as God in any sense, rather God is alone and not three. Now three in any concept be it Son, Father and Mother OR Son, Father & Holy Spirit OR Son, Holy spirit and Mary OR Mary, Holy spirit and Father whatever......... The concerned verses have sufficiently exhausted all the potential members of christian trinity as well as any other members of any other trinity by just rejecting the very concept of trinity. The concept of trinity was again discussed actually in 5:73 where God says: 
Quote:
[73] They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
Again, the mentioning of the members of the trinity is absent. Only one member that is God, Allah or Father is mentioned. All other members are not mentioned. The same word "Desist" is used in both the verses dealing with trinity but no such word is used in the verse dealing with idolatry. Thus, it becomes clear that the verse 116 of chapter 5 does not deal with the concept of trinity but it deals with the pagan concept of idolatry. As, we also know that the idols of both Jesus and Marry can be found anywhere either in the eastern cultures or in the western cultures which motivates an idolater to worship either or both of them.
Well, one states that wherever three deities would be narrated, it would always mean a Trinity? or potentially a Christian trinity? Before, i make any further response, i would like everyone to consider the fact that if we read Quran, one may find that whenever it addresses the concept of trinity, it remains silent about the members  but whenever it addresses the issue of idolatry and forbids the worship of any particular deity/person it explicitly mentions its name*[*53:19-23]  Similarly, the verse 116 of chapter 5 does not deal with trinity at all but the idolatry of Jesus and Mary.
In order to understand my above stated statement, let we have a look again that what does the first part of said verse says:
[5:116] And behold! Allah will say: "O 'Isa the son of Maryam! didst thou say unto men, 'Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?"
Well, the verse has not mentioned explicitly the word trinity or three as we see. Further in this verse, the word "Derogation" has been used. According to the Cambridge dictionary, derogation means:
derogation no pl 1. lessening menosprecio m 2. abolition abolición f adjective:derogatory showing strong disapproval and not showing respect.
All the meanings of the word strongly suggest that derogation means to lessen or a communication that belittles somebody or something. Before I proceed, let we see what the official Christian concept of trinity is;
Quote:
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XV.
Well, it is very clear now that members of trinity are co-eternal and co-equal. Does this concept relates with what is presented in verse 116 of chapter 5? It says "in derogation of God" which explicitly means that lessening the authority and role of God(father) and increasing the role of Mary and Jesus. Thus it is very clear and open that no trinity concept is actually narrated, rather; the idolatry of Jesus & Marry as gods is addressed.
Conclusion:
In the light of all available articles, holy writings and authentic history it is very clear that the verse 116 of chapter 5 of Quran does not address the holy trinity of Christians rather it only addresses the concept of idolatry of Jesus and Mary and condemns the worship of Jesus or Mary or both.
Anyone who has read the verse sees that this argumentation fails.
Have a closer look at this: 
"Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him:"
This tells us that Jesus is:
- an apostle of God
- the word of God which God bestowed on Mary
- a spirit proceeding from God
The verse is not talking about the Holy Spirit when it says "word" or "spirit", it is talking about Jesus. 
So in reality, the options that you gave are those:
1. Father + Mother + Son = Allah, Mary and Jesus
2. Father + Mother + Word = Allah, Mary and ... Jesus
3. Father + Son + word = Allah, Jesus and ... Jesus (Jesus in the trinity two times, he must be way more important than Allah ...)
Those other options which include the Holy Spirit would require the Quran to mention the Holy Spirit. And to my knowledge, it does not. So he clearly have a wrong definition of the trinity here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.59.233.21 (talk) 18:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
I think the following paragraphs adequately summarise the present last paragraphs. What do you think, is it satisfactory?
Some Muslim commentators and Western scholars believe Q as referring to Mary as part of the Christian Trinity. Critics use this to argue that the Quran's author was mistaken about orthodox Christian beliefs, wherein Mary is a human and the third part of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit.
On the other hand, Muslims argue that past heretical Christians have explicitly believed Mary to be a divine being, while general Christian beliefs implicitly exalt her to a divine status. Others argue that Q5:116 in fact does not allude to the Trinity since the term itself isn't stated in the verse and instances where the Trinity is explicitly mentioned (Q and Q), Mary's alleged divine status is not noted.
Some recent Western scholarship support a rhetorical understanding of the Qur'anic accusation of Mary's divinity claim in Q5:116; arguing the verse generally gives an example of Shirk and admonishes it.David Thomas, Trinity, Encyclopedia of the Qur'an
Notes
— AhmadF.Cheema (talk) 15:29, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Quranic View, in reality 

message: Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks. 
The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and who recognises His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognises parts for Him; and who recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him. 
Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence. 
________________________________________
Praise be to Allah who is proof of His existence through His creation, of His being external through the newness of His creation, and through their mutual similarities of the fact that nothing is similar to Him. Senses cannot touch Him and curtains cannot veil Him, because of the difference between the Maker and the made, the Limiter and the limited and the Sustainer and the sustained. 
He is One but not by the first in counting, is Creator but not through activity or labour, is Hearer but not by means of any physical organ, is Looker but not by a stretching of eyelids, is Witness but not by nearness, is Distinct but not by measurement of distance, is Manifest but not by seeing and is Hidden but not by subtlety (of body). He is Distinct from things because He overpowers them and exercises might over them, while things are distinct from Him because of their subjugation to Him and their turning towards Him. 
He who describes Him limits Him. He who limits Him numbers Him. He who numbers Him rejects His eternity. He who said "how" sought a description for Him. He who said "where" bounded him. He is the Knower even though there be nothing to be known. He is the Sustainer even though there be nothing to be sustained. He is the Powerful even though there be nothing to be overpowered. 
Praise be to Allah Who lies inside all hidden things, and towards Whom all open things guide. He cannot be seen by the eye of an onlooker, but the eye which does not see Him cannot deny Him while the mind that proves His existence cannot perceive Him. He is so high in sublimity that nothing can be more sublime than He, while in nearness, He is so near that no one can be nearer than He. But his sublimity does not put Him at a distance from anything of His creation, nor does His nearness bring them on equal level to Him. He has not informed (human) wit about the limits of His qualities. Nevertheless, He has not prevented it from securing essential knowledge of Him. So he is such that all signs of existence stand witness for Him till the denying mind also believes in Him. Allah is sublime beyond what is described by those who liken Him to things or those who deny Him.
This is why Muslims can not believe in trinity. --Aminz 20:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muslims do not believe in trinity because: 

message: This is not the place to debate the validity of the doctrine of the Trinity in any great detail, but here's a little explanatory diagram which may clarify the basic nature of the doctrine a little.  AnonMoos 18:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Christian doctrine of the Trinity

message: I made up a custom image just for this article; click on image for a full explanation. AnonMoos 21:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is a useful addition! gr, Peter L 21:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Of course, TO MY MIND, this is not a good addition since it only pushes a particular POV. --Aminz 00:47, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree that Christians have a complex understanding of Trinity, but Qur'an as I understood, has a simple answer to this claim: There is a distance between the creator and the creatures. (what distance greater than the distance between creator and creation can be imagined?). The Islamic rejection of Trinity does not hinge upon how trinity can be, but to say that it any kind of associating creatures with creators is inconsistent with the character of God, and also the claim that Jesus never said such a thing. Anyway, I couldn't find any passage in the link you sent for me saying that Muhammad believed Mary was a part of trinity. Can you please show me the passage? Also, What is written in the main text is POV. That's why the article is tagged un-neutral. --Aminz 04:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Diagram

message: I must say I find Griffith's views extremely implausible. He seems to think that "third of three" is being used as a proper noun which refers to Jesus, and that to say "God is not the third of three" only means "God is not Jesus". This is theology at its worst. Evercat (talk) 22:18, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Evercat, I am not sufficiently knowledgeable to be able to judge the merit of the view. But this view should have been sufficiently notable as it has been included in the EoQ article. And in any case, Wikipedia is not about truth, it is about verifiability. --AAA765 (talk) 22:47, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's ultimately about producing a good encyclopedia. Being verifiable is good, but it should also not be completely absurd. I think it's absurd and you don't seem to have an opinion on the matter, so I don't see why either of us would want to include it. Nevertheless, I have left it in there for now. Evercat (talk) 11:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Griffith

message: The article title implies that there is some form of Trinity expressed in Islam, which is the very opposite of the actual case. Suggest renaming this article to Islamic view of the Trinity or similar.--Jeffro77 (talk) 18:03, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename article 

message: In the Qur'an, Allah demonstrates that he is ignorant of the Christian religion. The creator of the Universe, the Most High God, has not been informed that Christians do not believe that the trinity is a triad of Allah, Jesus and the Mother of Jesus (Maryam). I hope that this has been noted in the article. No one told Allah, the All-Knowing God, that Christians profess a belief in One God in three persons (three simultaneous states), and not Three gods joining arms together in heaven (although, to be fair, perhaps Allah was foretelling Mormonism).
I don't think that any Christian would deny that the Trinity of the Qur'an constitutes Shirk, moreover. Therefore, the Trinity is not honestly and adequately represented.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.201.166.114 (talk) 03:54, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let Us Emphasize That The Qur'an Does Not Adequately Represent What The Trinity Is 

message: Most English translations of the Qur'an (most notably Yusuf Ali's) totally butcher the text so as to appeal to non-Muslims, particularly to Western audiences, as well as to clarify Islamic theology that is not clearly expressed in the text, but at least this is not the case with Abdel-Haleem's translation, even though it is still slightly misleading (what is translated as "Trinity" should actually read "three" in the Arabic, for example).
Jesus is the Word of God (Kalimaat'ullah), as well as a Spirit proceeding from God (Ruh'ullah). Well, that's exactly what Christians believe. Welcome to the world of the Trinity.
Jesus IS the Word of God (and, as God's own Word, he is thus deity) and his relationship to God is, essentially, Spirit from Spirit (i.e., Light from Light, Very God from Very God). How many prophet's were called, literally, the Word of God and the Spirit of God? This is what is so ironic about this passage: it practically paraphrases John 1:1, the definitive Trinitarian text in the New Testament. John himself was influenced (by way of terminology) by Rabbinic commentaries and the work of Philo, which regarded the "Memra [or Davar] of the Lord" as the divine extension of the deity which intimately reaches mankind, according to the theophanies of God on earth as revealed in the Torah.
So, the Qur'an provides what is actually a very eloquent exposition on the Trinity in this passage, even though it denies the existence of the Trinity in the very same breath.
Might we incorporate this information into the article? It could be valuable.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.158.14 (talk) 22:17, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jesus (Issa) is the Word of God... but he's not God? 

message: The article contains this statement in the lede: "The Qur'an repeatedly and firmly asserts God's absolute oneness, thus ruling out the possibility of another being sharing his sovereignty or nature." This statement clearly implies that belief in the Trinity involves multiple "beings" sharing in God's sovereignty or nature, since this is the thing that Islam is claimed to reject in the context of explaining its rejection of the Trinity. But Christian Trinitarian belief does not acknowledge multiple BEINGS who share the Divine nature, but multiple PERSONS. The Persons/Hypostases are distinct, but they share a nature/being/substantia/ousia. I don't know what Muslims believe, but can this sentence be rewritten so that it is a response to actual Trinitarian belief rather than to a misunderstanding of Trinitarian belief? Trinitarian Christians also believe in God's oneness, the essential unity of His Divine Nature. 68.51.248.189 (talk) 15:12, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  One in Being 

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