Talk:Shibboleth

message: first line of the lead is taken verbatim from the OED. Hairhorn (talk) 20:11, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead appears to be copyvio 

message: I have removed this as it simply untrue and a somewhat bizarre claim.  I am a musician and when an individual talks about the 'timbre' of an instrument or voice, it would not mean I thought of them as knowledgeable; I might think they were pretentious or mistaken.  An individual would have to demonstrate depth of knowledge to be thought of as knowledgeable, but this goes for any field, not just music.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vanda3984 (talk • contribs) 14:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Musicians use the word 'timbre' to distinguish those who 'know' from those who don't 

message: The article tells about the Hebrew word shibbólet but the rest of the article uses Shibboleth.
What is the real Hebrew word?
--Error (talk) 23:35, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the same, just a matter of pronunciation.  The difference is how the last Hebrew letter ת is pronounced, the same letter written with and without a dot varies in pronunciation depending on region.  Modern Hebrew pronounces it Sheebbolet not distinguishing between a ת and a .  Biblical Hebrew has variations in pronunciation depending on the tradition in the country they live.  European Jews would have the tradition that it's Sheeboles or Sheeboiles, in Morroco it would be Sheebolet, in Yemen, Sheeboleth.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by JacobGryn (talk • contribs) 21:25, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: In modern hebrew it still means the part of the plant  (not even all the plant) that containing grains,and in most of the cases - wheat. Avibliz (talk) 20:15, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  shibbólet 

message: In the section on the origin of the term Shibboleth, the article as it stands currently claims that the Ephraimite dialect of Hebrew lacked a "sh" phoneme. Two sources for this claim are cited: 
and . 
Neither of these are by biblical scholars. The first is by someone writing about postmodern philosophy, and the other is by someone writing about how to speak good English. I've got a biblical scholarly source, on the other hand, which understands the issue differently: . It says: "The Gileadites plan to identify the Ephraimites involves a dialectical shin/samek contrast. The origin of the variation is not clear, though the issue seems to be phonetic rather than phonemic. This is probably not a case of divergent development of sibilants in Gileadite and Ephraimite dialects of Hebrew, but simply a case of the differentiation of the same sibilant in these regions. To the Gileadites, the Ephraimite pronunciation of shin sounded exactly like a samek." For this reason, I'm going to edit out the claim that the shin phoneme was missing in Ephraimite to reflect the scholarly source, and I'm going to remove the other two, non-expert sources. For all we know, those sources simply worked their opinion of the matter out by reading the Bible in English, where many translations do give the impression that Ephraimites simply lacked a "sh" phoneme. Alephb (talk) 06:14, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Concur; this is the most likely situation in most scholarly opinions. Samek once was likely pronounced /ts/, while Šin once was /s/, and Śin (written the same as Šin) once was both /ɬ/ (similar to hissing from the sides of ones tongue) and /ṯ/ (IPA /θ/; the unvoiced "th" sound). During the two millennia BCE, these sounds shifted and now Samek is /s/, and Šin/Śin are /š/ (IPA /ʃ/; the "sh" sound) and /s/. During this transition, different groups at different points in the transition would be pronouncing some phonemes differently. A person writing about philosophy and a person giving instruction on English diction (and similar sources) probably should not be chosen over sources writing from more related fields (not only because of background knowledge, but the intended audiences are different and thus explanations [even with an author who is well informed] will be likely written quite differently with different intentions). — al-Shimoni (talk) 09:25, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Sh" / "S" in Judges 12:6 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Shibboleth. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131203001432/http://www.lalupa.com.do/2012/10/la-matanza-de-1937/ to http://www.lalupa.com.do/2012/10/la-matanza-de-1937/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:24, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Shibboleth. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120320191328/http://www.occupationalenglishtest.org/Documents/ViewDocument.aspx?club=oet&DocumentID=0bbf678f-9672-48c0-bb76-79bd9912b45c to https://www.occupationalenglishtest.org/Documents/ViewDocument.aspx?club=oet&DocumentID=0bbf678f-9672-48c0-bb76-79bd9912b45c
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:31, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Took out the following from section Modern Use:
:By analogy with the biblical account, in information technology a shibboleth is a community-wide password that enables a member of that community to access an online resource without revealing her individual identity. The individual does not know the password that is actually employed – it is generated internally – hence cannot betray it to outsiders.
The link in the paragraph appears to refer to some sort of unified-login scheme, whose connection to Shibboleths as discussed here is tenuous and doesn't contribute anything to the clarity of this article. Also, saying that the 'individual does not know the password', even if it made sense from the technical standpoint (it doesn't), disagrees with the fact that the existence of a particular shibboleth is well-known to individuals within the group, and outsiders can certainly be made aware of its existence (whether they can take advantage of that knowledge is a different matter).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.168.78.24 (talk) 04:00, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Reverted.  Improve not destroy.Ttocserp 10:59, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Though you may have clarified somewhat the mechanism of that unified login scheme, it only served to further highlight its inexistant relation to actual shibboleths. It is not descriptive enough to make the mechanism understandable (and this wouldn't be the place even if it did), and it contributes nothing but confusion to the understanding of shibboleths proper. The mention of that mechanism might be suitable, at most, for a disambiguation page or heading. So, re-reverting.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.168.78.24 (talk) 10:23, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irrelevant Paragraph Removed 

message: I'm afraid I'm about to ask a stupid question, but this concept seems to have so much in common with Sociolect yet there is no discussion of that, nor vice versa. Shouldn't there be some sort of cross-mention? Moebeus (talk) 23:16, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There's certainly a degree of overlap, but also significant differences: a sociolect comprises to a swathe of linguistic features that distinguish a particular community, whereas a shibboleth is a single tell-tale identifier. For the moment I have added add both articles to the "See also" section of the other. Slightly fuller discussion would certainly be in order, so be bold! GrindtXX (talk) 13:18, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Difference between Shibboleth and Sociolect 

message: From tumblr, I forget how long ago:
"I like your shoelaces!", with the proper response "Thanks! I stole them from the president."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.170.206.214 (talk) 18:42, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tumblr example of furitive shibboleth 

message: The illustration shows villagers producing icons to avoid being murdered.  This is not really an illustration of a shibboleth; however.  It is more like a passport. The icon is supposed to work because the persecutors think Jews are unlikely to possess one.
A shibboleth is an innate behavioural characteristic an outsider cannot convincingly imitate.  A passport or the like is a physical possession that qualifies you for preferred treatment.  A passport, a credit card, a driving license, your fingerprint, even your facial appearance — all these things may indeed distinguish you from outsiders or guarantee you advantageous treatment, but they are not true shibboleths,Ttocserp 02:17, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a fair argument. Personally, I feel there's enough overlap to justify including this image in the body of the article (given the difficulty of finding images that illustrate a behavioural characteristic graphically), but probably not to justify having it as the lede image. I would therefore propose restoring the "Tchoupitoulas Street" photo to the lede (where it used to be), and moving the icons image down (at a reduced size) to the Examples section. Other comments? GrindtXX (talk) 15:12, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: "Tchoupitoulas Street" is a valid example. Shibboleths were originally tests of vocal performance, unless I am mistaken. Diction, or choice of words, and verbal pass phrases seem to have come under this category.  Haircuts, wardrobe choices, or displayed icons may serve similar aims, but are strictly speaking not shibboleths. Just plain Bill (talk) 17:53, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, at the moment there seems to be a consensus for swapping the two images.Ttocserp 01:02, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've switched them GrindtXX (talk) 14:06, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Title image

message: The article says that another meaning of the word shibboleth in Hebrew, part of the head of a stalk of wheat or rye, is "flood or torrent". It admits that this is "less commonly (but arguably more appositely)", but as a Hebrew speaker with a deep Biblical knowledge, I'm sorry to say that this is simply a mistake. Yes, I read the sources that claim that this is a possible translation but I'm not convinced and I recommend to delete this addition. Tamar Hayardeni תמר הירדני (talk) 01:33, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, since Ephraim Avigdor Speiser — who was a full professor of Semitics at the University of Pennsylvania — published a paper opining otherwise, maybe you'd better publish a work saying he was wrong.  When and if this commands universal support among biblical scholars, then we can revisit the topic.Ttocserp 02:22, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Flood or torrent"?! 

message: diff Image removed, edit comment asserting it was "irrelevant." Pronunciation as a means of identifying out-of-towners (without standing to contest a local matter) seems like a quintessential shibboleth. Kindly discuss... Just plain Bill (talk) 19:28, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I have restored this image, which is plainly and unarguably a relevant example.Ttocserp 19:39, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tchoupitoulas again 

message: The Nevada example states the pronunciation with an /ɑ/ vowel is closer to that of the original Spanish than the /æ/ vowel with no citation. Without evidence of a formant chart or similar this claim cannot be so assuredly made Pienasula (talk) 23:08, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nevada example 

message: In South Africa, during one of our waves of xenophobic attacks, people would often be asked what an elbow was in Zulu  (“indololwane”) to identify if they were locals or foreigners. Is this an example of a shibboleth? If so, I think it could be added.
link:
https://mg.co.za/article/2019-09-13-00-the-torment-of-being-a-questionable-south-african/?amp 169.0.54.66 (talk) 18:03, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  A South African example 

message: I don't know the phonetic terminology but I've noticed that Germans struggle with the hard "arrrr" sound.  A german would probably say "Sund-air" instead of the American "Thundurrr".  So this shibboleth has two phonetic challenges, the "th" and "-er".  
Keith (Hypergeek14)Talk 21:51, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "r" in Thunder is also a shibboleth 

message: Tourists in Seattle often add a mistaken "s" and pronounce it "Pike's Place" or possibly "Pikes Place". This is used to identify both tourists around the large market, as well as newcomers to the city generally. I noticed there wasn't any "tourist tests" on this page yet, but I assume that is a very common branch of this phenomenon. Would an example like this be helpful? Jdftba (talk) 17:46, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: A better example is already in the title image.Ttocserp 20:52, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pike Place in Seattle?