Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Archive 55

message: Should my RFA summaries be:
# Moved to Wikipedia space and/or
# Mentioned on the main RFA page?  
Dragons flight 19:43, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One factor to consider is that to see updates on one's watchlist, one needs to be watching the primary page that the script writes to.  Watching a page that merely transcludes the data will not result in an edit appearing on one's watchlist.  Hence if we direct people to a WP:RFA/S (or whatever) that transcludes userspace data, they may be surprised if the updates are not actually reflected on their watchlist.  Dragons flight 01:24, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, but is it not the case that the edit summaries that update the page are always the same anyway?  So it's not like the edit summaries on your watchlist would be informative.  I asked you about that on your talk page once.  As long as the edit summaries don't say anything, doesn't really matter about the transclusion, does it? -lethe talk [ +] 01:30, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the edit summaries are always the same (for the forseeable future anyway), but having it appear on one's watchlist is a reminder to check for new noms, etc.  Dragons flight 01:33, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally, I think people should be encouraged to watchlist RfA itself rather than a support page. —Cuiviénen, Friday, 5 May 2006 @ 01:42 UTC
Well, as a new bureaucrat I find your RfA summary page (your others too by the way) to be one of the best things since sliced bread, Dragons flight. Very easy way to keep track of closing times and which ones need more checking into as an addition to reading the full pages of course. I think it would be a good idea to move to an RFA subpage if you're willing to move it out of your userspace and give it to the community. I actually don't like something popping up on my watchlist that often so I just like a shortcut to type in when I want to monitor it, but both are good for different people. Thanks for putting the work into creating and tweaking them. I like User:Cuivienen's even shorter shortcut idea too. - Taxman Talk 02:58, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

text: One little request: if the current page is also going to be kept, could the new page have the heading text enclosed in <noinclude> tags? It's slightly more appealing that way. Titoxd(?!? - help us) 03:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFA Summaries 

message: My edit count tool for history pages now looks at a whole crapload of things. I am already starting to get editcountitis. That "significant article edits" number is soo harsh on almost everyone :)!Voice-of-AllT|@|ESP 01:40, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contributions analysis 

message: I just came across this RFA: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Mcphysical. It was created six and a half days ago, but never listed on the main RFA page. Obviously it's not going to succeed (the user in question has only four edits to the article namespace) but I'm not sure what the proper procedure is for handling things like this. Should it just be closed at the end of its run? —David Wahler (talk) 03:51, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I tagged it with the headers, figured I'd save a 'crat the job seeing as it was never listed properly and the note of it being a sockpuppet on its userpage, I'm just not sure if I should straight out delete it -- Tawker 04:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As the user is indefinitely banned as a sockpuppet, and the RFA had only 1 vote, I have taken the liberty of deleting it.  I see no point in keeping a disruptive user's litter around once they have been banned.  Dragons flight 04:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Deleting this was fine because it was a banned user. Tagging it as failed was not correct. This was never an active RfA, and did not fail. Until an RfA is accepted and transcluded by the nominee or nominator, we should leave these RfAs alone. They are "Draft" RfAs. People can create a draft and work on it as they wish. Many people have draft RfAs sitting out there for weeks or months before they decide to accept. We should not be jumping in to add an RfA we find to WP:RfA without their consent (or casting a vote) or anything else. Just leave the draft RfAs alone, or contact the user to ask them about it. (Related discussion) NoSeptember talk 11:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. My RfA nomination page sat for around 2 weeks while I worked on it. (hey, it takes time to come up with those longwinded answers!) I have a nomination out there with a draft RfA which is likely going to sit for over a month. It's not failed because it hasn't started yet. ++Lar: t/c 12:35, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I encourage users not to use the Wikipedia: namespace as a drafting space; User:YourNameHere/RfA works just as well, and doesn't have the problem of gathering invalid votes and potentially causing problems (need I mention CSCWEM2 and the oppose votes that showed up on CSCWEM3 because of it...). Either copy/paste, subst: or move it to the right page when you're ready for it to start; don't create problems for yourself or others by putting it in the Wikipedia: space before it is ready. Essjay (Talk • Connect) 05:18, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Users should use userspace. Unfortunately most of these draft RfAs seem to be created by someone who wants to nominate a friend and they get created without the immediate knowledge of the nominee, and neither the nominator nor nominee knows better than to leave it in WP space. So it still falls upon us RfA regulars to not transclude these draft RfAs without talking to the users first. If we find one of these that is not ready for use soon, we should tell the user to move it into userspace. NoSeptember talk 09:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Er, excellent points. But the guides don't say that now. Perhaps a quick add to say after you use the automation to create your page, (as outlined here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/nominate the page created is Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/USERNAME) do a quick move to your userspace??? or change the automation a bit to create it in userspace??? I dunno, but if the automation creates things a certain way, and the docs around it don't suggest doing it differently, we can't fault people for going with it that way, can we? IMHO anyway. ++Lar: t/c 19:54, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (reviving stale discussion) I revisited the nomination form, and what we could do is to change the default pages created to Special:Mypage/RfA for self-noms and User:NOMINEE_USERNAME/RfA for friend-noms. The form that creates the RfA page has a text field for the name of the page to create, so smart people who know they want their RfA page in the Wikipedia namespace right away can still change the page name in the text box before pressing "nominate", and it'd do what it does now. Thoughts? Kimchi.sg 02:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFA that fell through the cracks? 

message: I am curious abut a specific, approved RfA, and I would like to do further research.  Alas, I am unable to figure out how to locate this user's RfA.  Where are the RfA archives held??  Thanks, Madman 16:12, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where can I get the record on an old RfA?? 

message: Now that my RfA is over, I don't feel it's improper to bring this up any more, unlike during. As many of you know, I had several nominators, 4 to be exact. (and a lot more that wanted to nom me... I could have had a dozen noms easily if I had let everyone that wanted to co-nom do so) Obviously, I didn't think it was too big a deal or I would have demurred and went with just one. But clearly some other folks did not agree. Some reasons given included it being indecorous, or worse, that it might lead me to believe I was slightly more invincible than someone that had just one. I'm interested in general thoughts... Is this really thought of so badly by so many that it ought to be a tip (optinonal of course) in a guide not to do? Thanks! Do multiple noms mean you feel more invincible? I certainly don't! ++Lar: t/c 19:37, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My opinion? NBD. :) RadioKirk talk to me 19:39, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think to most people it would be no big deal (within reason). But it is not what most people think that matters in the case of a potentially close nomination. If it bothers some editors enough that they will cast an oppose vote, then you should avoid doing it in order to avoid bothering those people. Sort of like the way the early votes on CSCWEM-2 brought about a number of oppose votes and a lot of upset. So, use multiple nominators at your own risk ;-). NoSeptember talk 19:45, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't say I've seen multiple noms before, so it seems a bit like instruction creep to put a guideline in (not to mention WP:BEANS for other people!). Ziggurat 20:54, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

text: NoSeptember: I would ask, is it appropriate to do things because of how they might influence close outcomes? It seems to me that one ought to do what one thinks is right. (I was cautioned against being wordy in answering questions, but I did it anyway). To do otherwise doesn't seem quite true to one's self. I know you weren't suggesting that per se but it's good to make clear. Also, Ziggurat, I wasn't suggesting a guideline so much as a "tip" so people could then decide for themselves ++Lar: t/c 12:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to suggest that doing things because of how they might influence close outcomes is inconsistent with doing what is right. What does the having of multiple nominators have to do with right or wrong? It's only about appearances. An overabundance of nominators could be seen as an attempt to steamroll opposition, just as the early votes for CSCWEM were seen that way by some. We should be voting on you, not on the size of your nomination cabal ;-). NoSeptember talk 13:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a nuance there, sorry if I'm not being very clear, but I do think that doing things (merely) because of how they might influence outcomes IS wrong. at least at one level, because it smacks of being political. Politics is inescapable in any situation with more than one person, of course, but I'd rather see stuff judged on merit as far as possible. I suppose that if you had two choices that were exactly equal except for how they influenced outcomes, choosing the one that influenced  the outcome in the direction you wanted might be ok, but choices never are exactly equal. I think it fairly clear that my weight on what other people think compared to other factors is very low. I try to do what I think is right, regardless of appearances. At least I'd like to think that's what I do, but who knows for sure? Hope that helps add clarity rather than subtract it. ++Lar: t/c 13:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It isn't merely about affecting the outcome, it's about respecting the opinions of those who may think that too many nominators is an attempt to steamroll the community. I don't see that as being political. NoSeptember talk 14:17, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Which is why I'm trying to get to. So is it true that multiple conoms is perceived as steamrollering, as is multiple pre-public votes (that's why I struck those) but having a boatload of people turn out quickly to support isn't? I honestly don't know. ++Lar: t/c 14:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Hey, if you really didn't care about affecting the outcome but just doing what is right, wouldn't you have started this topic before your RfA was concluded? ;-) NoSeptember talk 14:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ooh, good question. I don't know! Maybe I should have. But it felt to me like I would have been trying to cock things more by not waiting than by waiting. Interesting thread even if no clear 100% unanimous consensus emerges. ++Lar: t/c 14:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I too have no problems with multiple noms. --Siva1979Talk to me 08:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Tawker did you see the length of my question answers? There was NO DANGER of the noms taking up half the page, trust me! Smile. ++Lar: t/c 12:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Not a big deal within reason, but I'd perfer to just have one nominator (who ever created the rfa), with anyone else that wanted to nom voting support (with a comment to that effect if they want) when open for discussion. Having too many co-noms before the rfa is open could be seen as similar to having support votes too early, which should be discouraged. It's not a major issue, so long as one of the comments are short (nom or support), or otherwise the same person opinion would appear twice, which might easily be missed. MartinRe 13:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Three out of four of my noms I think added significant information the others did not contain but I do agree one didn't add much, I guess. ++Lar: t/c 13:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 4th one was just a joke, frankly. I think it was verging on poor form because with that many noms it looks like a "fait accompli" and/or some IRC admin cartel trying to push the promotion of their buddy. I privately urged you not to allow multiple noms and decided not to co-nom myself for this reason. All that said, I know you'll be a good admin - even if you do sometimes bite my head off :P - and we got the right result. It ended up as "no big deal". --kingboyk 14:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiple nominators? Poor form or no big deal? 

message: This is minor, no pun intended...but I programmed by edit summary tool to mark any edit it though was minor as minor, in addition to ones the user marked. The problem is that for edit summary use, do only look at the ratios of based on what the user marked as minor or not, or do I look at all edits that likely where minor as minor (even if it was not marked by the user)? I can program it either way, but I can't decide what to do. Right now, it counts edits it sees as minor as minor for edit summaries.Voice-of-AllT|@|ESP 22:19, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's all totally arbitrary, but what people probably expect "minor" to mean is when they tick the "minor" flag. If you want to have some other meaning, use a different term lik "significant edits" or something. Stevage 22:34, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Can it do both? I.e., show both minor edits and "non-significant" edits (minor edits according to your tool's algorithm). Although I like the idea of the tool considering edits not marked minor for insignificance, I agree with Steveage that calling these "minor" will probably confuse some people. Kimchi.sg 09:17, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How does the tool determine significance?  Regards, Ben Aveling 10:18, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stats question 

message: Do b'crats take into account the adjectives people use to support/oppose? Obviously I don't mean the joke ones ("support on wheels" and so on) but "weak support", "weak oppose", "weakest oppose possible"? Or even "strong support" and "strong oppose"? It would probably be silly to be give people double their say just by letting them add "strong" to their vote, but in RfAs where a lot of people cast "very weak oppose" votes, do those get taken into account, or do they count as full votes anyway? --W.marsh 13:40, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would consider more the strength of the additional comments and reasoning than just the adjectives used, but if there are lots of strong supports and most of the opposes say weak oppose, that would be one thing that would tend to tip the nom towards promotion. Bare oppose votes without reasoning are harder to take into full account. Solid reasoning is much more helpful. - Taxman Talk 16:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: If it comes within our discretionary range, I would weigh in each oppose vote and its corresponding reason carefully. I believe that adminship is about judgement and oppose votes which are downright silly will not be given due weightage. For such opposes and those votes that say weak oppose I won't negate 4 support votes, I'll negate less. I've clearly outlined this during my RFB. =Nichalp «Talk»= 16:44, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Crap, I should have opposed that, you're using numeric standards! *sigh* :-( (not your fault, but running anything on a wiki in that manner is known to Not Fly in the long term :-( ). Maybe the discussion below can bring further insights.  Kim Bruning 02:34, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  See , Linuxbeak's breakdown of his promotion of Tawker; these were a factor. ~ PseudoSudo 00:43, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Voting adjectives - question about/for b'crats 

message: This one closed with no consensus. It did numerically seem to be at the low end of the range but I have to say I was hoping this would have come out as a promote. ++Lar: t/c 13:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Echoing Flo somewhat, non-standard arrangements should face a stronger burdern of evidence to show consensus on them, not a weaker version. JoshuaZ 15:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Amgine 

message: I don't see a major problem with RFA - it gets the easy ones right, and it gets a bit random on the borderline cases.  Well, fair enough.  Rather than saying "there's something wrong with RFA because...", I'd like to hear someone say "RFA would be better if..."   Regards, Ben Aveling 12:02, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Define easy. Define borderline. In my perspective a *lot* of borderline cases are passing when they shouldn't, and a number of easy cases have failed. As to "RFA would be better if": please check Ilyaneps comments, he could use some help! :-) Kim Bruning 12:34, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  There's always going to be some false positives and some false negatives.  The easiest way to reduce the number of get rid of false positives is to raise the bar, but that increases the number of false negatives.  For deletions, we have deletion review.  Maybe it's time for Wikipedia:Requests for adminship review?  I don't think the above case is as clear cut as some people do, but if a lot of people have voted on dud information, it might be good to have some formal process that can relist an RFA and/or discount/allow contested votes.  Regards, Ben Aveling 16:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wouldn't a separate RfA 3-6 months later have the same effect? Kimchi.sg 16:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not exactly for 2 reasons.  One, it adds a delay.  Two, having a review board say 'this argument is wrong' clears the air - we've all seen things dragged up from the distant past that shouldn't have been.  Regards, Ben Aveling 17:02, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I was basically of roughly the same opinion as you are (though I'll admint I did have some suspicions), right up until the Amgine RFA. Something is definately not right. Kim Bruning 20:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the solution? 

message: This apparently was put up and then withdrawn (by the nominator, I beleive) in a fairly short time, which must be rather frustrating for at least Zero himself if not for others as well. Strikes me that a bit more research by the nominator might have been a good idea, but it's not clear how one would ensure such an outcome other than asking for common sense... ++Lar: t/c 11:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I withdrew it to protect him. I am (or thought) I had checked Zero out and have followed his edits since he started here, so it was a surprise to me that he had been blocked several times in the last month. He didn't mention it to me prior to nomination, and since it was obvious he would fail now a third time, no reason to continue the pursuit. Had I known about the blocks my advice would have been to wait another few months at least. Not sure what the common sense part is about.--MONGO 12:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Checking the block log perhaps? Putting the nom on hold to work on it for a few days or so and see how things develop, ask others for their views, etc? No slight intended but maybe one of those things would have helped... the whole thing ran for less than 10 hours from first start to finish. That just seems short, and there is no rush. (I support withdrawing it, that was a kindness in my view, my point is that it would have been better if it had not been placed) ++Lar: t/c 12:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why put the nom on hold? I should have checked the block log. It's tough to know all the details about even those I watchlist. I'm not perfect and don't pretend to be.--MONGO 12:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Zero signed it (he wasn't nominated without being aware of it), and Zero knew about the recent blocks. So it is Zero's responsibility to have said something about it. NoSeptember talk 12:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: That's too bad, you would be a good one. NoSeptember talk 12:37, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Well in any case you've done so much good work, I hope you won't let this discourage you. Cheers, jaco♫plane 12:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Possibly a wise choice by now ^^;; Kim Bruning 12:49, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Kim, that's not very fair...he's young and in six months he may be one of our best Wikipedians...I wouldn't be trying to discourage any future potentials.--MONGO 12:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Nonsense. You might not be suitable admin material right now, you have some issues to work through, but not being admin material right now is not the same thing as being a "completely inept wikipedian". There are lots of hugely valuable contributors that are not admins. Be a good contributor. Work on your equanamibility. Work on not acting too rashly (except when rashness is needed...) Work on judgement to tell which is which. Oscillating wildly between morose statements of unsuitability and excessive enthusiasm is not the right approach, though.  Adminship is not a trophy, it is not a validation of your inner worth. Don't get hung up on it. Hang in there, think positive, learn from events, and keep contributing. If you have to be perfect to pass, the system is broken. But you don't. I am not perfect! (close, just ask me, but not actually perfect) None of us are. ++Lar: t/c 13:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Not to discredit the blocks, but MegamanZero was dealing with one editor that has been repeatedly warned and keeps reverting warnings on his talk page...User:BIG, who is actually just this side of troll. The accusation on the Rfa that was also made was that Zero had taken a newcomers award and put it on his own userpage...what Zero actually did was to simply take the image in the award and add it to his page, which he did simply because he liked the image and no false misrepresentation was intended by Zero. (the full thread is here) But blocks are blocks, hence the withdrawal.--MONGO 14:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: You know, there's nothing wrong with being an editor and not an admin. We have some very well respected Wikipedians who are not admins, nor do they want to be admins. We also have some long-time Wikipedians who have tried and failed to be admins, and after a while, are perfectly content to remain editors. Perhaps you should just stay an editor for now, and maybe even stay an editor for a good long time. Adminship isn't for everybody. --Deathphoenix ʕ 14:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text:  If look at what I said in context (see discussion above, and see my admin status ;-) ) , you'll understand why I am currently fully in support of Zero not rerequesting admin status :-) I'm sure he's a fine editor, and we shouldn't ruin him/her/other with our stupid broken procedures. Kim Bruning 20:23, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Megaman Zero 3]] 

message: It seems that RfA is doing a good job at denying adminship to candidates that should not be promoted. Some worthy candidates are not promoted or not promoted at first try, see for example Amgine, AzaToth, Proto, Alex Bakharev, CSCWEM. All of which would have been promoted if we defined consensus to be somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 instead of 4/5. What effect would a lowering of the promotion threshold have? Kusma (討論) 01:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It wouldn't mean much in terms of who would suceed, if nothing else it would just mean that we'd get more people who opposed because at one time in the distant past the person who's going up for admin used the color #FF00FF (a light shade of pink) in their signature. Pegasus1138|talk 01:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is indeed an excellent reason to oppose. You'll be up for adminship in late June, right? Kusma (討論) 02:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're talking to someone who has failed two RfAs. :-) Kimchi.sg 02:10, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, I didn't see the second one, just read the comment of David Gerard in the first one that he'd nominate after 90 days... Kusma (討論) 02:13, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Both due to my newness which won't be an issue next time around, on the topic of sig color I think that one time change (believe me I won't normally be using a hot pink sig) got the point across though even though I assume Kusma was being sarcastic about opposing due to the sig color but people seriously have opposed for similar reasons, including but not limited to; images in sigs that were removed long before the nom, signature style, userpage layout (non userbox issues), and whether a user uses substed templates when opposing or supporting someone or something during a poll. Pegasus1138Talk | Contribs | Email ---- 02:16, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: To return some seriousness to this debate: I don't believe the number of silly opposers would go up by that much, unless somebody enforces that all votes must be accompanied by a "reason". (we'll get a lot of Oppose, not enough Help talk edits type of votes then). And even a slight increase would probably be offset by having one oppose not be worth four, but only 2.5 supports. Kusma (討論) 02:28, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: FWIW, that is the threshold on German wikipedia (of course (at least temporary) de-adminning is a lot easier there, too). My point is, though, that almost all candidates we have that fail with 70-80 percent are actually quite good. Kusma (討論) 02:51, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would be glad to see both an easier method of temp de-adminning and a lower adminship threshhold (in that order).  Adminship should be no big deal.  Fluorescent sigs, on the other hand...  +sj + 06:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the German way ? Tintin (talk) 06:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The main idea is that there is a page where problems with admins can be noted, and people can then file a request for temporary desysopping (usually one or two weeks) which is then voted on. I am not certain about the exact voting procedure; it seems it used to be mostly done by admins, but is now open to all. The German Wikipedia has no ArbCom, though. Kusma (討論) 15:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: You know, I’ve been trying to think of a way to fix my sig so I can find my comments easier later. Maybe a nice BLINK ;).  :) Dlohcierekim 13:24, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I think people should be desysopped for it. And for Chinese characters in sigs. Kusma (討論) 02:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OMG ROUGE ADMIN!!! Pegasus1138Talk | Contribs | Email ---- 03:08, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I used to have greek characters even though my name is Russian. That count? — Ilyanep (Talk) 03:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I think anyone with a strange character in their sig should fail an RfA (or be deadminned). --Deathphoenix ʕ 03:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I know all that. I am only trying to say that instead of saying "The whole process is a failure because XY was not made a sysop" we could look at small changes to the system, and a lower promotion threshold (or a wider range for bureaucrat discretion) would be one of the more obvious ways that the system can be tweaked instead of changing it completely. Kusma (討論) 15:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *And I'm noting that lowering the threshold wouldn't make a difference in the five cases you cited; three of them went on to be promoted and the other two it's too early for them to have had another chance. --Durin 15:31, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *You raise a good point by looking at the results in the long run. RfA does get it wrong on the first try sometimes, but most worthy candidates that fail once do seem to get their sysop bit two or three months later. Which would mean that the only thing RfA is proven to do "wrong" is to delay some good candidates by a couple of months (and weed out some who have low patience and/or a low stress resistance). Consensus seems to be that this is worth it for being extra cautious, which I can agree with, although of course it is never nice to see your favorite candidate fail just barely. Kusma (討論) 20:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: It all depends on how you look at the process. We have had earlier threads where the point was made that most of the problem admins who are eventually desysopped only got passed at the low end of the approval range. Perhaps we unconsciously accept the idea that it is better to temporarily deny 10 good candidates in order to avoid one bad candidate getting through. Usually the good candidates that fail can get through the next time as they have grown in experience and demonstrate an ability to not get into improper conflicts. Being rejected could be considered a test, to see if you can handle the rejection and continue to be a solid contributor. NoSeptember talk 13:33, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. The reason it's probably not a good idea to lower the standard is that it is too hard to remove admins. If the arbcom showed less reticence to do that, it wouldn't be as big a deal to grant adminship. The admin accountability poll showed pretty strong support for the arbcom to remove adminship when necessary if I recall, but some people seem to think that's a big deal. - Taxman Talk 13:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Concerning ArbCom and desysopping, I have had the idea that maybe desysopping could be done more frequently if it was not attached to RfA (requiring people to reapply here). BorgHunter and Ashibaka were temporarily desysopped and restored after a certain amount of time. Almost all involuntary desysoppings that require reapplication fail (the one that succeeded was a fourth attempt, more than a year later). A one, two or three month temporary desysopping would seem to be a reasonable middle ground between not desysopping and desysopping with required reapplication. I have written more about this at User:NoSeptember/Arbcom punishments. If we can make the desysopping process less draconian for ArbCom, they could potentially use it more, and we at RfA could start considering adminship less of a big deal again. NoSeptember talk 14:15, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I also think desysopping should be less difficult, as currently when you vote for an admin, it's all or nothing, so that if successful, this editor will be an admin for all time (with a few exceptions). So it boils down to damage limitation, weight the harm that might come from a bad admin, against the harm (or loss of benefit) from the lack of a good admin. Unfortunatetly one bad admin can do a lot of damage, so I believe that's why the standards are rising as we just can't risk it, even if that means we have to lose a few good ones as well. Regards, MartinRe 14:33, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On the balance of 'benefit to the wiki' it is better to have a few good candidates denied adminship than to have a few bad candidates given adminship. Keep the 'threshold' the same but introduce easier de-sysopping within (say) the first 3 months of adminship. This would maintain the integrity of the process but would encourage people who are unsure (there are a lot of 'not sure whether to trust you'-type votes on RFA) to support rather than oppose, because any bad admins could easily be kicked out removed from adminship, and this would result in more people receiving adminship without gaming the process to benefit people whose supporters believe their rejection was 'obviously wrong' Cynical 12:41, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consensus level/promotion threshold 

message: :It all depends on how you look at the process. We have had earlier threads where the point was made that most of the problem admins who are eventually desysopped only got passed at the low end of the approval range. Perhaps we unconsciously accept the idea that it is better to temporarily deny 10 good candidates in order to avoid one bad candidate getting through. Usually the good candidates that fail can get through the next time as they have grown in experience and demonstrate an ability to not get into improper conflicts. Being rejected could be considered a test, to see if you can handle the rejection and continue to be a solid contributor. NoSeptember talk 13:33, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. The reason it's probably not a good idea to lower the standard is that it is too hard to remove admins. If the arbcom showed less reticence to do that, it wouldn't be as big a deal to grant adminship. The admin accountability poll showed pretty strong support for the arbcom to remove adminship when necessary if I recall, but some people seem to think that's a big deal. - Taxman Talk 13:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Concerning ArbCom and desysopping, I have had the idea that maybe desysopping could be done more frequently if it was not attached to RfA (requiring people to reapply here). BorgHunter and Ashibaka were temporarily desysopped and restored after a certain amount of time. Almost all involuntary desysoppings that require reapplication fail (the one that succeeded was a fourth attempt, more than a year later). A one, two or three month temporary desysopping would seem to be a reasonable middle ground between not desysopping and desysopping with required reapplication. I have written more about this at User:NoSeptember/Arbcom punishments. If we can make the desysopping process less draconian for ArbCom, they could potentially use it more, and we at RfA could start considering adminship less of a big deal again. NoSeptember talk 14:15, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I also think desysopping should be less difficult, as currently when you vote for an admin, it's all or nothing, so that if successful, this editor will be an admin for all time (with a few exceptions). So it boils down to damage limitation, weight the harm that might come from a bad admin, against the harm (or loss of benefit) from the lack of a good admin. Unfortunatetly one bad admin can do a lot of damage, so I believe that's why the standards are rising as we just can't risk it, even if that means we have to lose a few good ones as well. Regards, MartinRe 14:33, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On the balance of 'benefit to the wiki' it is better to have a few good candidates denied adminship than to have a few bad candidates given adminship. Keep the 'threshold' the same but introduce easier de-sysopping within (say) the first 3 months of adminship. This would maintain the integrity of the process but would encourage people who are unsure (there are a lot of 'not sure whether to trust you'-type votes on RFA) to support rather than oppose, because any bad admins could easily be kicked out removed from adminship, and this would result in more people receiving adminship without gaming the process to benefit people whose supporters believe their rejection was 'obviously wrong' Cynical 12:41, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: a reason why the threshold is high