Talk:Onufri

message: Wikification done.
*excess links removed.
Eagle (talk) (desk) 02:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Here , we have a painting school in Berat
The master of the school of Berat/le Maitre de l'«école» de Berat . 
And: the "correct reading" - that is, as understood by Golompias - of the two controversial words at the end of the inscription...
Here we have only "allegedly" material. Even if he was from Argos - I doubt that - that doesn't mean he was automatically Greek. 
Majuru (talk) 19:13, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Master of the Berat school of painting 

message: It seems that half of the scholarly job around Onouprhios is not about his paintings but about an inscription of 1547 bearing his name and his possible origin.
See yourself how complicated thinks can be in Greek. The whole inscription is here, page 333. Onouphrios is mentioned in the last line (line No. 7):
George Golobias (1983) The ctetorial (founding) inscription in the Church of Agioi Apostoloi of Kastoria and the painter Onouprhios. published in the periodical "Makedonika"
Don't try to read it even if you know Greek because some words are abbreviated in hieratic style of byzantine palaiography AND some crucial letters are worn out.
The first who dealed with this inscription was Rev. Germanos Christides in 1922, followed by several Greek scholars, experts in palaiography (Orlandos, Tsamises, Moutsopoulos, Gounaris etc). It seems that none of them is happy with the reading of the previous and the story goes on. 
Line 7 is reconstructed by Golobias in p. 334, as:
"The painter Onouphrios Argetes from the briliant city of Venice ..."
:Correction: It says "the most brilliant city of ...". This is important to identify the missing letters after "Ve...". Earlier Albanian authors were hurry to understand it as "Veration" (and thus "Albanian"), but more sober authors argue that the most humble Onouphrios would not call Berat a "most brilliant" city, especially if this was his birthplace. Onouphrios was so modest that he signs  as "supposed to be painter" (Ονούφριος, τάχα και ζωγράφος) (see title of I.Sisiou's publication: .
  
The author dedicates pages 338 to 343 (!) to the words "Argetes" and "Venice" (Αργήτη and Βενετίον in Greek). In p. 339 he offers a detail of this line. The complex on the left is understood as abbreviated "ΑΡΓΗΤΗ" and on the right the complex "ΒΕΝΕΤΙΟΝ". 
Previous scholars read other words instead of ARGETE, mostly "του άρτι" (who just). Golobias seem to have done the most thorough examination of this word and concludes to the reading of AΡΓΗΓΗ (from Argos), p. 338 down and 339 down). He asserts that the name "Onouphrios Argites" is also found in the books of the fraternity of San Giorgio dei Greci in Venice (others argue that it is not sure if this is the same Onouphrios). Golobias explains that Argites can mean either his birthplace or it was a surname meaning that his ancestors were from Argos. The subsequent reference of Venice means that he had stayed/studied painting in Venice but could also mean that he was born there (p. 340, 1st paragraph). Rev. Christides reads "Grevena" instead of "Venetion" and Albanian researces read "Veration". Here we find the names of Popa, Puzanova and Dhamo (p. 341 up). In footnote 3, p. 341, Golobias remarks that "the Albanian scientists stretch the Albanian nationality of Onouphrios" and gives all their publications with no more comments. We must understand that modern Greek byzantinologists who study similar cases want to have good relations with their co-workers and authorities of the neighbour countries and do not want to get involved in nationalistic dog-fights. However, we the independent reader can see that all the Albanian bibliography and one Italian occurs in the totalitarian national-communist regime of Hoxha and nobody expects to find there a non-Albanian Onouphrios. But the official catalogue of the Albanian byzantine paintings exhibition in Thessalonike, which was co-organized by Greek and Albanian authorities (a reference that I found painstakingly and certain users erased), contain a good review of the relevant bibliography and Onouphrios is not characterized "Albanian". The (Greek) author of that essay adopts a middle way, reading the important line as "Onouphrios who just (came) from Venice" and says that we don't know On. origins. 
Thus, I propose that in this article we include the general atmosphere of this debate in one line and we add that "some experts believe that Onouphrios has signed as "Argites" in a wall painting in Kastoria and possibly in archival material of the Scuola dei Greci in Venice". 
Btw, respecting the persons whom we are writting about, we should accept the name THEY called themselves. On. everywhere signs as "Onouphrios" (ΟΝΟΥΦΡΙΟΣ), all scientists call him so and I don't see who is calling him "Onufri". The latter is the vulgar name used both in Greece and Albania. I may call my friend "Onufri" (Ονούφρη) but if he becomes famous he will be immortalized as Onouphrios. Unless he is a rap singer.
:Thank you very much for this detailed explanation of the importance of correct reading of the an inscription of 1547 bearing his name and his possible origin.
:*The information about very important reading of the inscription in the Holy Apostles church and discovery of the population registers in the Venetian archives has already been included in the text of this article, and referenced source showed that many contemporary scholars and experts in the subject support it. That information was deleted by Future Perfect at Sunrise diff. When I asked him to explain his removal he wrote: "it just wasn't obvious from your material what these details were and why they mattered", although the sources I provided and explanation on this talk page clearly emphasize the importance of recent interpretations of his signature and archival material of the Scuola dei Greci in Venice. I explained that to him and wait for his reply. Maybe he did not see my question so I will leave talkback template on his talkpage. I hope that your detailed explanation can help him to realize that these details mattered.
:*Onouphrios is again included to the article, based on the consensus we reached (if User:ZjarriRrethues continues to refuse to accept consensus and remove it he will be reported).
:*I understand that Greek author of some essay chose to present middle view about his ethnicity, but according to NPOV we should present "fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources."--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:50, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scientists "fighting" around a letter or two 

message: Unfortunately, the Βε[νε]ετιὸν or Βε[ρα]τιὸν makes the identification impossible. I think we should better use Elsie's  dictionary.Majuru (talk) 12:17, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Beration

message: The article by intoalbania.com doesn't discuss Onufri's ethnic background, and it is WP:QUESTIONABLE; it is a promotional website of Albanian tourism and a non-scholarly source. Lleshi (2013) is also problematic and looks like a self-published book. The thearthistoryjournal.blogspot.com is a WP:USERGENERATED source. Furthermore, i don't know what to make of Zeqo (1998); "Medaur" is a rather obscure publisher. Last, there are sources that state he was ethnically Greek, and thus this also violates WP:NPOV; see MOS:LEAD. Demetrios1993 (talk) 23:07, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Norikpallaska's edit