Talk:Great Famine (Ireland)/Archive 6

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*Irish potato famine 
*Talk:Irish potato famine/Archive 1 
*Talk:Irish potato famine/Archive 2 
*Talk:Irish potato famine/Archive 3
*Talk:Irish potato famine/Archive 4
*Talk:Irish potato famine/Archive 5
*Talk:Irish potato famine/Archive 6 
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Thanks for your diligance, JTD . I don't have the article on my watchlist; it's a sucker's game to make changes there. 
In my experience edit wars often happen when someone feels that their concerns about the quality of an article are not being addressed, and that someone is being unfair, or domineering.  I removed ironic quotation marks from around geocide. That simply had to go: the language was too vulgar.     
I can't say for sure what was on the other pages and doctoring histories serves no moral good; but what I see here is anything but propagandistic gibberish. I don't have to ask what he was doing. It SHOUTTED at me. Stevertigo has delivered an object lesson in communication that will humble you: make you embrace Wikipedian ethos. 
I wrote this poem in the style of John Robert Columbo:
  
 
::===By His Own Petard: Well Hung=== 
                    
: It is my belief,
: perhaps more than a strong belief,
: of npov supression,
: througha deliberate policy of man
: Surely there must be another view?
: Perhaps ignorance, a common enough sight.  
: Eureka!
: Ignorance blind must be the cause,   
: 'cause SHOUTTED in his eyes
: was POV nonsense. named:   
* bogus  pov
* among the fake' Irish - living abroad pov
* patently false  pov
   
I have read all the existing Irish President articles: I was impressed with their quality. I know that you can participate in the writing of good encyclopedia. The quality of the articles that you have had a hand in is very high in deed. It is far above the median.
Your behavior in this talk group and about this article have been appalling.
Now Justice has been served.
* Never again shall you run roughshod over wikipedians.
* Never again shall you appeal to a phd for authority and refuse to discuss things intellegently. 
* Never again shall you pull rank:your judgement is suspect.
It is never fun to be hurt: to be shown ones weakness; simply learn from this experience and act with grace. You must always give respect to individuals. Never submit to prejudice. Eliminate prejudice at every cost.
I have every sympathy for the amount of frustration, that drove Stevertigo to  fight, so effectively, your dictatorial supression of this wiki.
 
  I contribute anonomously: we need move beyond authority to quality.  
    
* Study npov: Ingrain it. 
* Study logical fallacy (and  then  don't make them). 
* Read those posts  or they will trip you up.
This  is  not the end of the world. This article could dispell ignorance. But first we must dispell the  ignorance  inside ourselves.
Two16
From half-watching the controversy here over the last week or two (but not following it in any detail) and from reading the article again just now, I am left with a clear impression that it has, in fact, deteriorated considerably. It's now so full of qualifications and references that the flow of information is lost. Tannin
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Sv, I am rather disappointed at your behaviour. To disagree is one thing, to deliberately tamper with an article to twist its meaning and add in provocatively POV opinions is immature and wrong, particular when you try to bury your POV twists in the text
I deliberately re-wrote the article to add in references you suggested, including a detailed section on the genocide claim, highlighted both the majority and minority opinions. Instead you proceded to twist the section, so that the minority view is treated as the majority view, and the majority as the minority. Worst of all, you had the audacity to categorize the views of the vast majority of the Irish people, Irish historians, Irish researchers, Irish famine experts as the  "British point-of-view" and crude revisionism. 
By what right does someone whose views on the famine are so out of touch with the opinions of the IRISH people (it was after all an IRISH famine) and who is so ignorant of Irish history that he didn't know who the patriot John Mitchel was, to accuse the Irish people of holding a British point of view. 
Furthermore, most of the people who read this page disagree with your 'analysis'. So obviously most of the people on Wikipedia are also crude revisionists. I have had a host of emails today from people slating your behaviour as unprofessional, unhelpful, irresponsible and ill-informed.
According to Mav  "the changes Sv made were appalling. I see you have also complained to the mailing list. Good."
This page is about the Irish famine, not about an ill-informed neo-marxist rant. You have contributed a lot of good stuff in some areas, which is why your behaviour here is so perplexing and unacceptable. This is not a marxist Wikipedia. It is based on the principle of consensus. If the majority of historians, the majority of famine researchers, the majority of Irish people and the majority of people on Wikipedia who have consulted this page view it as factually correct, fair and NPOV, then that is the consensus. You do not have the right to vandalise it to put your minority POV opinion, twist everyone else's words to suit your POV and accuse all others who disagree with you as being crude revisionists and holding a so called British point of view. JTD 21:28 Jan 16, 2003 (UTC)
Ill not answer these "comments". Tannnin is correct - for a "PHD" youre commentary reflects a 3 year old level. And your arrogance speaks for itself. -Sv
:Tannin (two ns then one) didn't say anything about 3 year olds. If anything Tannin was criticizing the edits that were made to satisfy your POV. --mav
I may have complimented the wrong man. Its a crime ill have to answer for on my day of judiciousness.-Sv
Sv STOP reverting this page. Your version is distinctly POV and not appropriate for this article! Mintguy
:Speaking as only an amature historian (and concerned Wikipedian), I don't think that Sv's genocide section is really that bad. It is perhaps longer than is warrented due to its relative importance to the subject of this article (and the quote needs to go) and of course needs to be copyedited for POV, but it didn't read like fundamentally biased POV that warrent outright reverting. We might, perhaps, be a bit too trigger-happy due to some of Sv's previous edits - which were, er, less than stellar or at all productive. Would it be possible to summarize the genocide issue here and spin-off a more complete article on the subject? I would find that interesting. --mav
Who's is the reversion? You Mint, might try youre hand at a re-write then, because his is no doubt POV. 
I appreciate Two16's words of support. He makes a clear point which noone has picked up on, and that is simply that JDT's manner, his arrogance, rudeness, haughtiness, presumption, hypocricy, and foul mouth did no service to his cause.
I choose my battles carefully, and this issue is one worthy of making a stand for. Despite an apparently spanking new "Phd", no pompous bigot will be respected, if he does not extend such respect, Nor has it the right to dicate terms, hold claim to 'higher knowlege', and disguise his "lazzeis faire" bigotry as history. The person of whom I speak is no doubt, a true 'inheritor of "the wind". --Sv
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Can we clarify something. Consensus. In all that has been going on here, only two people have expressed opposition to the current page. Everyone else is in general terms happy with it. (Mintguy. DuggieH, Mav, Derek Ross, Sirubenstein, Tannin, 159.134.168.165, 9 emails I had received at the last time I checked my account). They may have quibbles which can be discussed. Only two people have expressed problems, Two16, who has  a thought provoking interesting argument and has offered constructive suggestions, and Sv, who has spent days dumping an article everyone else is OK with and putting in his own POV in a garbled version of the genocide piece that uses POV language, a POV tone and a POV construction that seeks to put the majority view of those who have studied the topic as the minority view, while the view he expresses is written as though it was the overwhelming view. 
* It is not the view of the vast majority of historians. 
* It is not the view of the vast majority of Irish people. 
* It is not the view of the vast majority of people who have spent years researching the famine. 
* It is not the view of the vast majority of people who did the local studies on the famine's impact. 
* It is not the view of the vast majority of the people who read this page and had no problem with it. 
It is one person's view. Sv. 
Mav is right. As least it wasn't as over the top as his first attempt. But it still misrepresents the views of the vast majority of those who have written, who have researched, and who have commented on the issue. Consensus on Wiki means the vast majority agreement, Sv. It doesn't mean things Sv agrees with. And you show contempt for the Irish people and their famine by suggesting that they subscribe to British point of view. They don't. They subscribe to an Irish point of view, based on Irish experience. We had enough colonial masters in the past telling us what to do. We don't need American so-called, self proclaimed experts to tell us about our history, what it means, or what you think it means, and how we must accept your view as correct.  We don't and we won't. JTD 05:10 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)
PS: I've just checked my email. I've another message, the 10th. This one says 'just keeping reverting and reverting his changes. Stevertigo's behavior is outrageous. Maybe we should ban him if he keeps on pushing his POV like this. It is not first time he has acted the dictator.'  JTD
You presume to speak for an awful lot of people, Jay. Thats quite remarkable.-Sv
Wow, Jay added a quote from a different point of view. Hope is (somewhat) restored. I feel the evil strings of Jay's domineering attachment receeding.  
On a sidenote: I understood the praise of the community (Myself included) was for the improvement of the article - not that it was "perfect," complete, nor even good. Jay started with a biased diatribe, ( and insults - which I note Jay (now) refrains from ) and any improvement no doubt brings a chorus. And I also appreciate Mav reading my edits, and commenting (somewhat) positively on my last edits. I'm glad to see Jay coming (somewhat) around, albeit with a spiteful discarding of my edits. As for Mint - well... I'm sure youll be of continued help ...  -Sv
:If you lived in Ireland, Sv, you'd know what the overwhelming view of the Irish people is. You'd have seen the famine exhibitions, have attended the summer schools, have read the texts, heard them debated on RTÉ radio and TV, read all the famine commemoration coverage in the newspapers from the Irish Independent, The Sunday Tribune and The Irish Times to Án Phoblacht, heard the speech of our taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, on the issue, the comments of our president, Mary McAleese, attended lectures in our colleges on nineteenth and twentieth century history, read magazines like History Ireland,  If you had done all that, it not too difficult to see what the general view is and isn't.  By the way, I've placed in the Seamus Metress quote into the body of the text. Though I disagree with it, it is a POV worth referring to. (I've also corrected Seamus's page on Wiki - the ISBN heading was wrong. It should work now.)
BTW, one of the comments re my re-write was to say 'bravo'. Another was 'really quite good'. Another in an email said 'way above normal Wiki standard!.'  (just so you know!) And I am not coming around.  I am always this way. I added in a genocide section because you convinced me there was merit in doing so, even if I disagreed with your analysis. And I made the point of the different attitudes between Irish local and Irish diaspora attitudes because I thought, in view of our 'discussion', it merited it. (Some urged me to drop both!) I had planned to put the Metress quote in but because my browser only allows limited space and would not allow me any more space, I was about to edit out a paragraph (I had already chosen the one) to specially make way for Metress when you began your 'edit'. I have since removed that paragraph to facilitate a paragraph on the famine in song & the Metress quote.  Mav made some interesting suggestions on a restructure that I have been thinking about, in terms of how to best achieve what seemed to be a good idea. JTD 05:52 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)
Your sad haughtiness is glaring, even from all the way over here in rainy California. At least you cut it out with the pottymouth. Am i going to have to fight you tooth and nail each time; just to add a quote to "your article", though you may "disagree with it"? You keep avoiding one central issue Jay, - your smart enough not to call it "my article" in so many words, but this is in fact the real problem; your attachment to something etheral and amorphous - a wiki page. God forbid anyone change a paragraph, let alone a whole section, which you admit you find distasteful, and believe me, your distaste for the material shows - in your "NPOV" writing. As for your Irishness, Ill defer to what Slrubinstein said - that your homelanders' point of view does'nt prevail any different view from outside of your country - Diasporic debates are to be represented in the article.
Im going to redo the atrocity article... an article I started... with alist of atrocities. The Irish potato famine will be added under a category of its own, 
:would you suggest: The "misguided," "ill-informed," and "counter-productive" management ventures of Lord Russell? -Sv
:If you follow the standard NPOV policy, and rely on the official definition of genocide, and not some biased politically motivated definition, that's fine. I hope that you will point out in your article that the view that the Irish famine was a genocide is help by only a small minority, and that most say that as there is no evidence that it was deliberate, that's fine. But don't twist facts to suit your own agenda. And don't start some drawing some ludicrous distinction between deliberate genocide and other types. There is no other type. Genocide by definition has to be deliberate. That's the actual definition of genocide. If it wasn't deliberate, it wasn't genocide. Pol Pot's actions, Stalin's actions, the Nazi exterminations of jews, Poles, the handicapped and gay people was genocide because it was a conscious, deliberate policy. To suggest that the Irish famine was genocide would be to show gross disrespect not just to the Irish, whose famine you would be abusing for political motivation, but also to the victims of actual genocide. Try to be NPOV. As for your personal insults, I'll treat them with the contempt they deserve. You do yourself and your beliefs no good by stooping to them. JTD 18:17 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)
"Maybe you thought I was the Packard Goose..."
well, If you actually read my "POV" you might have gathered that I dont claim that the profile fits Gencide - as deliberate. My problem was with your POV slant, disguised as sterile NPOV, and of your charachterisation of the genocide claim as being far more "miniscule" and "fringe" than you say. The claim that the deaths by starvation of between .25M and 2M (take your pick) British subjects just a stones throw away from the homeland as being caused entirely by potato, or by mismanagement, is at best contrived. 
You bury the real meat of the article in secondary details - youre so keen to explain that 'land use traditions' were a major culprit, that you dont bother to answer or deal with the more interesting material - the human story... of the slow deaths of roughly a million people. And its relatively recent history too! This isnt so far back that you say 'leave it buried'.
I would not leave the recent genocides in Rawanda to American historians nor to Hutu tribesmen... And theres a case to be made that what happened in Rwanda, just a few years ago, "was not genocide". Remember the images of UN soldiers chopping up bayonets in protest for being pulled from the area- leaving innocent people to die a butchers death... America must come to account for its neglected responsibilities, its vetoed actions in the UN for which there is no record of...  dont feel like this is America-bashing or Brit-bashing. But dont dismiss the tie between the Starvation and the cruelties of Imperial rule.
The "genocide accusation" is no doubt politicized and inaccurate - to the common-use definition of genocide ( with the implication of intent) but is not dismissed entirely, as you claim, as mere "counter-productive" management. Its too easy. We dont allow for these excuses to stand in history for atrocities, whether they be deliberate or not.--Stevert     
For crying out loud, Sv. You don't know Irish history. You don't know what genocide is. In case you haven't noticed, this is supposed to be a high standard reference source, which means you base claims on facts, not on simplistic theories. Genocide IS deliberate. That's the definition. What happened in Rwanda WAS deliberate, therefore genocide. Ditto with Stalin, the Nazis, Pol Pot. Ireland's famine does not fit the criteria.  There are many common definitions which can be explored, but we have to be able to have a definition that is universally applicable in Wiki entries, not simply 'gut feelings'. 
Wiki has that objective definition for genocide, the same one the UN, the US and most of the states in the world uses. Having decided that your opinions are superior to the vast majority of historians, researchers and Irish people on the Irish famine, have you now decided that your views on genocide are superior to the UN and most states in the world? Is there no end to your self righteous arrogance and presumption of superiority to everyone else? Please, Sv, apply proper academic rigour to your analyses. Don't simply jump in to everything with theories, decide that your opinions alone are NPOV, and everyone else's aren't. You've clearly got strong opinions and I respect that. But opinions in something like Wiki have got to be based on exploration of facts, not pushing agendas.  That's why I put so many footnotes on the Famine pages, quoted Lee and Mitchel, while explaining why interpret facts in a certain way. Genocide is too serious a charge to be thrown about with relying on a commonly applied definition. If you just throw the allegation out without following that definition, both your article and Wiki will be discredited, as agenda-driven POV. From the evidence of some of your work, you have a lot of ability. Channel it carefully, wisely and objectively. JTD 19:28 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)
I can tell that this issue is becoming tiresome for several people now - including myself. Can we all just leave the article as is and take a break in order to prevent somebody from leaving Wikipedia in disgust? If, however, you all do feel a need to continue then I suggest we take Sv's genocide section out, leave Jtdirl's summary here and then work on Sv's text outside of this article (with a "The neutrality of this article is in dispute" disclaimer at the top). Then based on the consensus we reach at the genocide article we can tweak Jdirl's summary. What I see here is a lot of wasted energy being spent in argument - we need to focus our efforts on building an encyclopedia. --mav
:I'm perfectly happy to let this tiresome argument drop. I've tried to three times and gone off to work on other things. I've done major re-writes on this page twice; I've added in quotes from John Mitchel and Seamus Metress that support Sv's interpretation. I added in the genocide section because Sv argued (and convinced me) that it should feature (only then to get attacked by Two16 for putting it in). I've even added in a paragraph on how the famine is remembered in song, even picking a modern song that would be more aligned with Sv's analysis than that of most historians. Yet even simply trying to archive a page to make more room for people gets me accused of censorship, put in bold letters on the page. I've been called a British reactionary, a Tory (which if Sv knew my politics, is about as ludicrous as accusing Yasser Arafat of being a right wing Jew!), an apologist for genocide, a Holocaust revisionist. All for a page that has more footnotes, book references and a deeper analysis of all sides of the famine issue and impact than occurs on almost any page in Wiki. And all from just two people on this page, who either make personal comments, snide allegations or keep reverting a page that no-one else has made any complaints about. I have NO PROBLEM whatsoever with never visiting this talk page ever again. I've NO PROBLEM working to adapt the article to incorporate other people's views; I've done that three times already. But what I can't do is twist my country's history and the story of my country's famine to suit theories and claims that are openly and quite literally laughed at in Ireland. 
:Just because myths exist doesn't mean Wiki has to take them seriously. Americans would (rightly) be furious if I rewrote an article on Wiki to mention and state as fact the often repeated myth that George Washington was actually a woman dressed as a man. (Yes, that claim is made. I've seen it mentioned in three books!) Or that Richard Nixon and Bebe Rebozzo were a secret gay couple (even though some of Nixon's own aides speculated that it might be true! One aide called them the 'fag boys'!)  Or that Bill Clinton is really a virgin! (Ok, I made that one up!!!) All I want to see is a factually accurate article that reflects the reality of what happened and that varying analyses that have been placed on it, explaining where those analyses came from. That is what I have been told the page does. Only two people disagree. And disagree. And disagree. JTD 02:54 Jan 18, 2003 (UTC)
 
Not so fast Tyrant. You are being expelled by the Wikipedian Immune Response. The metaphor can change: but, given immune system, you are a disease. The Wikipedian Ethos is kind but logical. It is your Logical Fallacy to base an  arguement on an appeal to Authority. QED.  First year philosophy students would probably fail their  Introution to Philosophy ,  if they did not understand this. You devalue your Alma Mater's degree.. Why won't your actions devalue your reputation among your peers as well ? Won't they turn you out to the dogs? After all you have made their work more dificult? Your words tarnish from reason deficiency. When push comes to shove, you will receive  a wiki awakening. Didn't you read replies to critics?    
You are in conflict with The Wikipedian Ethos. Your posts will not have any credibility with any one who matters here: npov is not afraid of strong statments. It is enough that statements be free from error and logical fallacy. The Jeffersonian Radical Free Speech Brigade will provide logical defence for Lockdown Sv Rule. Who will defend your actions ? You have committed every faux pas that is listed for my community. Your ad homineim attacks against Lockdown Sv Rule will make him a Revolutionary Hero: " I have sworn eternal hostility to every form of Tyrany in the Wikipedia."
As the wikipedian with the greatest knowlegde, of your  Tyrant Crimes, I think that this is just:
* voluntarily stay out of Irish Potato Famine one month --- This will be so that we can demonstrate the power of npov.
* summarise the all arguements made in Archives 1 through 5 and the current talk
to learn how to present anothers arguement clearly in a manner they would agree 
* write a comprehensive encycopedic mpov article on coffin ship
 
* append a photograph of what the blight looks like to potato blight
You should have no fears that Irish potato famine will be ruined. Because you didn't understand npov,  you could never bring yourself to trust it. Please trust me: I have sworn eternal hostility to any form of Tyrany in the Wikipedia. I believe my offer is fair: What treatment can you expect after I have prepared the wikipedians? Would you like to see how far npov can go to protect npov? 
Then recieve Poetic Justice. Read the new article how_ to_read a_poem. Then read the talk.
The Community will want to read your response here. If you want a fight,  Wikipedians will take it to you, we have marshalled our resources. There is nothing more for you to say except, "I accept" or "In spite of all the object lessons, I disagree"
User:Two16
LOL  -Stevert
This article has since been moved to Poetry analysis. --Theo  (Talk) 11:15, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)