Talk:Bombing of Dresden/Archive 13

message: last entry in archive 12 (see Talk:Bombing of Dresden in World War II/Archive 12#Hague IX article 5):
::There are now over twenty citations in the case for section, which finally gives this issue the attention it deserves.--72.94.89.101 08:33, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 9.1 Hague IX article 5

message: last entry in archive 12 (See Talk:Bombing of Dresden in World War II/Archive 12#SYSTEMATICAL ATTACK ON CIVILIANS 
::If you have the sources to defend your claims, why not try to contribute to the article then?--72.94.89.101 18:12, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Systematical attack on civilians

message: Colonel Javier Guisández Gómez is not "As a professor writing on behalf of the Red Cross" --Philip Baird Shearer 20:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: what is he then?--72.94.75.178 21:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Legal obligations

message: I think that the current structure of the debate part of of this article:
* Was the bombing a war crime?
** 5.1 Legal obligations
** 5.2 Notable mainstream opinions
** 5.3 The case for the bombing as a war crime
** 5.4 The case against the bombing as a war crime
or the alternative I have been working with:
* Was the bombing a war crime?
** 5.1 Legal obligations
** 5.2 The case for the bombing as a war crime
** 5.3 The case against the bombing as a war crime
is an impediment to the development of the article because the headings force the argument along legalistic not moral lines. I think that these headings frustrate those who wish to highlight that although the strategic bombing campaigns may (or may not) have been lawful, there is a legitimate moral dimension to the debate.  I think that we should take a leaf out of the article  Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and use headings closer to theirs:
*Debate over bombings
** Support
** Opposition
*** Inherently immoral
*** Militarily unnecessary
The last two sub-sub headings have been added during the last few months and may or may not be suitable for this article. I would be interested to read what other editors think. --Philip Baird Shearer 12:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This certainly is an option, but if you take a look at the case for article now, I don't think it drifts too far from the war crime focus...and if not focusing on that, debunking the Allied claims. Yes it is - has - been limiting, but I think it just may work now. Alternatively, at second glance the case against does seem to be broken into several parts already, sans the titles to announce these jumps.--72.92.119.89 14:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Debate over bombings 

message: I like the absurdly long sentence that avoids the problem of citing the assumption that Holocaust of Bombs is a misuse of the holocaust appellation. Clever, but where's the source?
m...But its primary meaning is now so closely linked to the Nazis' treatment of the Jews that such etymology appears to be in bad taste." It seems you are passing off Cleaver's view as the assumption we all are supposed to make. Unacceptable and, in lieu of your source, yet another contradiction in your frustrations over invalid sources. It is unacceptable to pawn off this view in such a manor.
::The source was German ruling says Dresden was a holocaust by Hannah Cleaver in the Daily Telegraph 12 April 2005 which was at the end of the quote. I find it interesting that an IP address can know that I have "frustrations over invalid sources". Please leave out the personal comments as they do not help with the building of a consensus on this article.
:::I think that you missed the point twice here, and the one time it was my fault. I see the source for the quote about Cleaver's view on the "misuse of the phrase bombing holocaust." However, at no point in time did it say in the bombing of dresden article that this was Hannah Cleaver's opinion. Instead, it read as if this was a wikipedia conclusion we should be making.--72.92.116.74 04:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hannah Cleaver, writing in the Daily Telegraph. makes the point that "Strictly speaking, the word 'holocaust,' which comes from the ancient Greek for 'burnt', might seem apt for Dresden, much of it immolated by the fires started by the RAF's incendiary bombs. But its primary meaning is now so closely linked to the Nazis' treatment of the Jews that such etymology appears to be in bad taste."
--Philip Baird Shearer 22:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hannah Cleaver quote

message: ::I have made many of the changes I felt were warranted and eliminated some of the less than necessary points that we were disputing. Note the rewording on the Hague section. Also, please tell me what else you would like to call Gomez, or simply change this yourself. You are right about Micky Z, I have tried to cut him out of the article except for the quote that demonstrates precisely why some think the bombing was a crime against humanity. As for the soccer stadium quote, can you disprove this? Hitchens can be found here 
::He is a historian, among other things, but I took out the appellation for the sake of controversy. You will find that I used his opinion only as an opinion in the article anyway, not to source fact but instead to detail what some think.--72.94.75.178 02:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The initial pathfinders of No. 5 Group RAF used the stadium as a location point (presumably because it would show up clearly on their H2S radar systems). No. 5 group then sector bombed (different headings and timings for each aircraft). The assigned starting aiming point for the second wave (No. 3 and 6 Groups RAF) was the Altmarket but as that was already on fire the master bomb-aimer moved the target indicators southwest to Loebtau and Friedrich and then to Suedvorstadt (with the Hauptbahnhof), then Johnannsadt. AFAICT the RAF dropped close to 342,000 4 pound stick incendiaries (including about 30,000 of the nasty ones with anti-handleing exposive in them) but no petroleum bombs. Ignoring those USAAF bombers who bombed Prague by mistake, the USAAF attacking the next day at around noon, they and aimed at the Friedrichstadt marshalling yards (from a height of 28,000 feet), and, because of cloud smoke etc, some waves bombed using H2X radar (so no use of the Norton bomb sight for those bombers). --Philip Baird Shearer 12:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: 'As for Zezima, I previously explained to you what you can do this this quote and the fact that he condenses time in his reporting of the raids and fails to say who did what specifically, I feel, is not important. You claimed that they did not make use of the stadium, but Taylor says that they did...of course, in another context. Like I said, it seems Zezima condenses this in a way that might not be entirely clear, but all I see from your argument is a focus on the small points in an effort to remove a damning description of the bombings brutality. Perhaps the description he leaves us with would help you better understand why this is such a sour issue outside of the, I imagine, the UK or US. I don't think the latter cares very much one way or another.--72.94.204.107 08:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

text: You did not mention the soccer stadium, but some historians do. I remember the description in one of the books (was it Taylor?). I feel if we argue that it was a "crime" along the lines of "indiscriminate human suffering", we must demonstrate precisely why, other than the simple Genocidewatch quote. Your account is so concerned with technics and time scales that it sounds like we're in a science lab or examining a terrorist mail-order. That is precise, but it does little as far as document the experience. I have come across some first-hand accounts but Zezima does what we need this particle point to do, tie the impact of the bombing back to its logistics, thereby commenting on both (perhaps simplified as Zezima's) simultaneously.--72.92.110.194 04:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

text: To begin, history never is an objective affair, even if you want to lie to yourself about the existence of ultimate "truth". I have to laugh at admission that one of the reasons you object to Z's article is there is no NPOV. If you seriously think the world of scholarship operates along the lines that Wikipedia tries to maintain (NPOV)...I think you would be surprised to find Irving is not the only one guilty of abusing our trust and his position as an authority on matters related to the war. In any case - and getting to the point - I have removed Z's commentary, only because I feel that you have provided an adequate explanation of your objections and yes, I also have a problem with some of the other claims he makes in his article. However, I was willing to look past this because his description of the "first-hand account" at Dresden, with all its descriptive language, is actually akin to what survivors have reported. As mentioned earlier, he is able to bring everything back into the larger context, which is why I favored his account of the inhumanity over that of the victims themselves.--72.92.110.194 05:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Michael Zezima

message: I would have left these considerations in the thread, but I cannot find their source and it is extremely long already. If you would like to relocate my comments here to where you feel fits best, by all means... --72.94.204.107 08:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done--Philip Baird Shearer 22:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

text: looks fine--72.92.110.194 03:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Long thread

message: :was a constitutionally protected exercise of free speech since defamation of was not the prime aim of the argument
Shouldn't there be something after "defamation of"? Andjam 00:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, the article tends to deterriorate the more some people run around deleting things they fail to understand with their single-track minds.--72.94.204.107 01:10, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Typo 

message: I was reading some article a while ago saying that there was some video that uses footage of people from Dresden just after the bombing and use them for some kind of propoganda (maybe for liberation of a concentration camp). Does anyone know about this? Because I think it should be mentioned in the article. Kingjeff 05:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Some video

message: I noticed that the page is listed on RfC and decided to comment as a neutral party. It appears that the destruction of Dresden was a typical war crime, and quite disgusting at that. It should be put on the same footing as the destruction of Coventry, Tsarskoe Selo, Novgorod, etc. --Ghirla -трёп- 10:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third opinion 

message: A link in Further reading to David Irving's web site is unacceptable because it violates Wikipedia's WP:V policy. See Evans expert testimony in "Irving v. Penguin Books and Lipstadt" :
:Not one of his books, speeches or articles, not one paragraph, not one sentence in any of them, can be taken on trust as an accurate representation of its historical subject. All of them are completely worthless as history, because Irving cannot be trusted anywhere, in any of them, to give a reliable account of what he is talking or writing about.(Holocaust Denial On Trial: General Conclusion paragraph 21)
--Philip Baird Shearer 11:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I do wish THIS site had more pictures...--72.94.204.107 11:50, 02 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: David Irving

message: Okay, this has to stop. For no appropriate reason, you revert to your archaic version and then make a million changes (some that I agree with) that also affect my version, which is constantly updated to include your new findings. I would love to incorporate the references, etc. that you have unearthed, but if you seriously think that I am going to go back and painstakingly sort through your last version, reincorporate everything that is pertinent over and over again to compensate for your lack of consideration, you are sadly mistaken. I have tried in earnest to work with you, but Philip, contrary to your behavior, you do not own the article, and I will not tolerate you erasing all my contributions dating back to the summer, precisely what you intend to do.--72.94.204.107 04:39, 02 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This cuts both ways, I do not see what I am doing as a lack of consideration for your POV any more than I consider what you are doing as lacking consideration to my POV. I am assuming that the edits you are making are in good faith, and I am sorry if you do not think I am also trying to edit in good faith.  I am incorporating such changes that you make, that I consider valid into the version that I am editing. I think the big changes that you try to make to the page makes it difficult for us to reach a consensus. I suggest that you stick with my current version (as it is closer to the original text and incorporates your changes to date that I agree with) and that we go through the changes you want to make one by one, over a number of days, until we reach consensus on each one. After all there is no hurry over this, it is largely a difference of nuance. As the RFC request does not seem to have resulted in any constructive criticisms, I suggest that if we work through each of the differences in turn, without making edits to the rest of the article if we can not reach agreement to two different versions of a sentence or two then we can ask a third party to contribute to that specific point. --Philip Baird Shearer 14:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Stop

message: the RAF had decided long before, from analysis of the damage to British cities during the Blitz that dehousing people was a more effective way of damaging war production than killing people or attempting to destroy the factories.
::Tell that to the lady who watched her child get sucked up into a tornado of fire, or the people who melted into the pavement. While I'm sure that you have a source, that just sounds ridiculous! Its the means to an end, no matter how you sugar-coat it.
::I can't wait until I begin to read sentences on the Holocaust page, like "The Holocaust was the attempt by the Nazis to create an ethnically homogenous, like-minded community that would identify with the same state." Again, this totally ignores the means to an end, which was the callous murder of several million minorities and others that stood in the way. I'll take a "stab in the dark" and assume that nobody in your family died or was closely associated in any way with Dresden. LOL.--72.94.204.107 11:47, 02 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: War is a nasty brutish business with a logic all of its own. You have rejected my suggestion that we alter the text to look at the moral issues. Instead the article is constructed on a narrow legal issue of was it a war crime. Killing the refugees was never the intention of the western Allies, because live refugees from the fronts (and those made so by reducing their homes to rubble) used up more enemy resource than dead ones. It is a complete reversal the the humanitarian argument: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.", but it does have a brutal logic, which was the British thought within the laws of war. It is the same logic that says treat you prisoners of war well, not just because the Geneva Conventions bind the state to do so, or because it is the humanitarian thing to do, but because a POW is no longer an enemy combatant and encouraging them to surrender, rather than forcing them to fight to the death, is a better strategy because it allows the enemy to be defeated faster with fewer friendly casualties. --Philip Baird Shearer 18:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

text: BTW in the words of Max Hastings "I believe it is wrong to describe strategic bombing as a war crime, for this might be held to suggest some moral equivalence with the deeds of the Nazis. Bombing represented a sincere, albeit mistaken, attempt to bring about Germany's military defeat." --Philip Baird Shearer 18:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And I completely disagree. The above is simply dripping with Wilsonian nonsense about teaching other countries not to dabble in war. If you buy that baloney, that's fine, this is an issue of who you think is telling the truth, and my inclination is their arguments suit their interests. I don't want to turn this into an off-topic discussion. However, Max Hastings' argument as to why Dresden was a war crime (like yours), is not going to be very strong.--72.94.204.107 2:10, 02 November 2006 (UTC)

text: War does one of two things: either it is no excuse and it does not pardon anyone from anything (gentleman's war), or alternatively, it pardons everyone of everything.--72.94.204.107 2:12, 02 November 2006 (UTC)

text: It does this only briefly, but not in the case for or case against sections. Both examine the term very liberally, and I have no problem with this.--72.94.204.107 2:14, 02 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Dehousing"

message: Some companies have policies of making returns, claims or reissues so difficult that people simply give up because it is not worth it. And yes, this is their ultimate, unstated goal in dealing with such matters. I think it is a shame that this is how I am ultimately being treated on Wikipedia, with the irony being that none of you can lay claim to the ownership of this project. 
This is hardly an issue of "mine over yours". Yours is essentially mine without anything I have labored over so that people can get the full story, not some weak, biased "war crime" argument constructed - ADMITTEDLY no less - by someone who has no desire to demonstrate that Dresden was a war crime. How absurd that someone who has no desire to demonstrate that Dresden was a war crime is entitled to craft the article and block the constructive edits of others.--72.94.204.107 3:44, 03 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Objection

message: I also forward the idea that the first-hand accounts are valid to be introduced as evidence of a "war crime". As Genocide Watch's President, Mickey Z and Jenkins point out its inhumanity as their primary reason for the "war crime" position, this simply supports it. Another reason would be that one of the things Shimoda took into account was the sheer suffering which this clearly documents. You made a good point when you broke the arguments in two, and unintentionally explain why this is so. You write:
While the other lot says the military benefits disproportionately small for the destruction, pain and suffering it caused.
There are two ways this can be examined in a favorable "war crime" context. You could aim to show that the military benefits were small (or, as mentioned above, even nonexistant - i.e. lack of military necessity) or that the pain and the suffering was great. The latter begs the question "how great?" Well, you can certainly cite figures and say that x number of people died or you can show how they died, the sort of inhumanity-angle that Shimoda takes into account (essentially, atomic bombs were a more efficient extension of firebombing)--Sin cloro 17:22, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: First Hands Accounts as Part of Argument?