Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Lyndon LaRouche

message: (from Fred's Talk)
I believe the anon 172.197.41.61,  172.192.55.164, 172.199.94.76, 172.195.49.141, 172.192.69.34 who has recently been inserting and reinserting LaRouche propaganda in the LaRouche article is Herschelkrustofsky. See   AndyL 14:15, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I've unblocked your blocks of several anonymous users, because the decision doesn't authorize the use of blocks and bans. However, you can present this as evidence to the Arbitration Committee, and they may decide to ban the user. Guanaco 16:15, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)
In any case, even if we were to effectively bar the anon IP being used (by Herschelkrustofsky?) given the IP numbers we would have to bar quite a large range and that might not be justifiable.
Anyway,  just reporting the IP activity to you FYI in case it's evidence. AndyL 17:33, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: They've also been instructed not to engage in promotion, which does apply to Lyndon LaRouche. As enforcement, you have the old standby of "edit this page", and also (as a special exemption) the ability to choose which version to protect. I expect that will be sufficient, and as you not blocking a huge IP range would seem a little OTT. Martin 19:21, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: Ooh, good question! Not one I'd explicitly thought about either way. I think it would be sensible to ask an uninvolved sysop, but I can see how our ruling could be interpreted the way you suggest, and I have no serious objection to that. It would be nice to hear what other arbitrators think. Martin 19:32, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  aftermath 

message: I seeem to be caught in a personal feud between two reportedly longtime editors of Wikipedia with a strong interest in the same topic.  I'll explain the background of my involvement in full within the next day or so.  For right now, though, I simply suggest checking the article history, the article talk page, and the article itself.  The article's topic is valid, the treatement is within policy, the sources are solid, helpful community involvement was ongoing and productive (until today), and SlimVirgin (SV) was not an active editor with this topic.  I think the quality of the article speaks for itself.  More to follow... Cla68 (talk) 09:43, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Statement by Cla68

message: Following Cla68's considerable involvement in October with the AfD on a topic edited by SlimVirgn, WP:AFD/Jeremiah Duggan in October, I posted a notice reminding him of the ArbCom's remedy in C68-FM-SV. (After I posted that, and with no connection to Cla68, it was serendipitously discovered that  was a sock/meat puppet of banned serial puppet master  WP:LTA/HK, and the account was blocked the same day it was discovered. Cla68 jumped to the conclusion that he was "chased away" ahead of time in order to prevent him from interfering with the block. There is no truth and no evidence of that.) 
The LaRouche movement has advocated a variety of proposals in its political platforms over the years. A reasonably inclusive list is now at Views of Lyndon LaRouche and the LaRouche movement#Campaign platforms. It includes planks ranging from a return to the gold standard and the colonization of Mars. But the support of the LaRouche movement is not a significant factor in the promotion of the proposals, so LaRouche is not mentioned in those Wikipedia articles. The LaRouche movement is a small group holding what are generally described as fringe or extremist views. The only LaRouche proposal that has received significant coverage in secondary sources was a 1986 ballot proposition in California concerning AIDS patients. The 2009 Obama=Hitler campaign has been widely reported, but despite being mentioned in dozens of newspapers articles and hundreds of blogs, none of the sources I've seen have actually discussed LaRouche's health care proposal. The attention was just on the posters and the genocide accusation. 
While the movement does publish articles on the Eurasian Land Bridge (ELB), they are ignored by mainstream writers writing about the topic. The view that the LaRouche movement is a significant advocate of ELB is held only by the LaRouche movement. No one else says that. There are many institutions that have actual, significant connections to the topic but which aren't mentioned by name. Sources that say it's a plank of the movement don't go into any greater depth. Devoting a named section partly to LaRouche's promotion is undue weight. 
While the other aspects of the article appear to be of good quality, Cla68 says that its creation was due to the discussion on Wikipedia Review concerning LaRouche, Herschelkrustofsky, and SlimVirgin. The LaRouche material is not just a random paragraph inserted into a pre-existing article but rather it's the reason for the article. The inclusion of this content appears to be determined by factors beyond NPOV article writing on Wikipedia.   Will Beback  talk   12:29, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statement by Will Beback 

message: I think the real violation of sanctions here is by SlimVirgin and WillBeback. Their (coordinated?) thesis that this is "her" article and therefore Cla68 has to stay away beggars belief. They seem to be bent on harassing Cla68, and anyone who has the temerity to get involved in anything related to LaRouche. I ask ArbCom for a summary judgment banning SlimVirgin and WillBeback from all LaRouche related articles, broadly construed. Including this one, which is a fine article... might be an FA someday if it's just allowed to be worked on peaceably, instead of being interfered with as these two seem determined to do.
I may have more to say later. ++Lar: t/c 15:43, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statement by Lar 

message: I may be missing something here, but the only possibly sound approaches SlimVirgin seems to want to pursue are:
*An accusation that Cla68 is editing the article as an indirect attack on SlimVirgin; 
*The suggestion that SlimVirgin's virtual presence is somehow so strongly associated with Eurasian Land Bridge Cla68 should not be involved; and
*Its within (SlimVirgin's?) administrative discretion to handle the LaRouche aspect of the article.
I'm going to skip over analysis of whether SlimVirgin exercising administrative discretion in this situation is proper (it isn't) and just suggest it would be an incredibly bad idea to use a content related remedy position in the midst of what appears to be actually fruitful discussion.
As for the Cla68-SlimVirgin interaction angle, if I was actioning this request on WP:AE (where Arbitration enforcement usually goes), I'd say SlimVirgin has to meet a high burden of proof to convince me that Cla68 is acting (in bad faith) to attack SlimVirgin, or that creating an article for even allegedly dubious content positions on the significance of the LaRouche movement is relevant to SlimVirgin or any other policy.--Tznkai (talk) 17:32, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statement by Tznkai

message: I worked with  on LaRouche criminal trials in a successful effort for it to become a FAC and found him to be reasonable on all accounts and without an agenda regarding the facts.  I do not believe  was involved at all in that article, so I have no statement regarding her involvement in the issues at stake.  —mattisse (Talk) 23:46, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statement by Mattisse 

message: The concept that merely creating or editing an article on a particular subject is somehow inherently "harassment" of SlimVirgin is the sort of ridiculous stretch of the concept of harassment that cheapens actual harassment; crying wolf too many times about this sort of thing will result in people ignoring you if and when you actually do get harassed.
However, I do share with Slim some skepticism about whether the involvement of LaRouche and his movement in the concept of a Eurasian land bridge is truly notable; is that really what the reliable sources show? *Dan T.* (talk) 05:28, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statement by Dtobias 

message: *Slim, just a reminder to notify Cla of the request.  Also, I don't see a User:Herschelkrustofksy registered.  Assuming there is a typo in there somewhere, could you notify him as well.  Assuming his talk page is unlocked, he could post a statement and have it transferred here or email it to arbcom. MBisanz talk 09:33, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have notified Cla. I'll check the typing of HK's name, but he is not an involved party; he has been banned for some time. Apologies if this is in the wrong place; please feel free to move it. SlimVirgin 09:45, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clerk notes 

message: *Comment - this appears to conflate a content dispute and a ruling about the interaction of two editors. As regards the content dispute, might I suggest that other parts of the article are expanded before returning to that dispute? As far as the "avoiding unnecessary contact" bit goes, can I ask the two parties involved if they have been able to interact amicably outside of Wikipedia or not? The other question is whether they (and any others here) are engaged in disputes outside of Wikipedia that they are bringing onto Wikipedia? I take a very dim view of editors who argue about something outside of Wikipedia, and then continue that argument here on Wikipedia. You need to be able to leave baggage at the door when you come to edit Wikipedia. Carcharoth (talk) 13:15, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arbitrator views and discussion