Talk:Carlism

message: I deleted the changes by Error about a death sentence imposed to Manuel Fal Conde on 1936. I'm afraid it's a factual error. I hope his info comes not from the same source we've talked prior. I'm still in doubt in some elements of Manuel Fal's activities during the critical period December 1936- August 1937, but let's try to make a calendar (exact dates are still dubious)
:Yes, it is from María Teresa. -- Error 01:37, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: (deep silence).The only other resource I've found a similar statement is, of all places, on a FAQ at [  the CTC webpage]. Unless there is something I still haven't found, this a doublet to the Marx citation, about a surprisingly badly documented moment. To be fair, the memories I had was that Fal went to exile after the unification (and this is what most books/pages seem to imply), when in fact he already was by then. The timeline I wrote yesterday, is based on Jordi Canal's book and scattered info on the web.--Wllacer 11:13, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: Check it. It is also from María Teresa. --Error 03:04, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't let us be too overcritical ;-) It's his daughter. I have read that before and I can safely asume that this tragical event is true.BTW I found references about it in the dutch wikipedia nl:Xavier van Bourbon-Parma. The carlist house hadn't much luck during both WW. Don Jaime was house arrested in Austria for a couple of years during WWI
--Wllacer 10:37, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Manuel Fal Conde

message: A bit of trivia: I think that in The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles, Indy meets two youths, Sixtus and other, in a WWI front. --Error 04:12, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's true, it was a good pun on part of the screenwriters. Anybody volunteering to write an article about the "Sixtus Affair"? --Wllacer 16:41, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Indiana Jones, Indy joined the Belgian army, and the series featured historic people. So they were probably the real brothers. I remember no mention of Carlism though.--Error 02:32, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: No wonder about it. In 1916, Don Jaime was still in his prime (IIRC, some 46 years old), so any part played in Carlism by his Parma cousins had to be secondary. And at that time, Sixtus and Javier were only cadet princes (4th and 5th male sons of Duke Robert from Parma -14th and 15th siblings of 24 !!!). Don Javier only became titular Duke of Parma in 1974, after the extintion of all prior branches, and not without some troubles, because of his somewhat unequal marriage (how times have changed for monarchists ;-).--Wllacer 09:55, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Trivia (?). Indiana Jones

message: We have three partly overlapping articles, this,  Carlist Wars, and First Carlist War. There is something good in it, as their reflections on the origins of Carlism are very different (of course it's easy to know which I prefer ;-)) and any interested reader can have a comprehensive (if scattered) view of the discussion. But the fact is we duplicate other information, and findings in one article don't go into the others (the Marx quotation, for instance). Also, the articles  are not so strong in regards to military history (just compare with the spanish wikipedia article about the first war ).
Therefore I make to the usual contributors (and whoever want to join) following proposal.
*Move all the information about the general origins of Carlism to this article.
To avoid an edit war, and trying to keep a NPOV, the specific question of basque Foralism in the origins of carlism (using the first carlist war article as base) could, either go into a separate subheading, or as the first topic on the Talk page, which I would prefer (referencing it in the main body, if doable)
:The Talk page is for discussion among contributors, not for encyclopedic text. If you can't make it NPOV,
:* don't write it
:* write in the article and wait for fixers. wikipedia:Be bold.
:* Propose a text in the Talk page as a sketch with the intention of moving it into the article.
:--Error 02:23, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. Start :) --Error 02:23, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: A proposal

message: I removed following sentence :
"They cited the doubts over Alfonso XII's paternity to dismiss him as illegitimate and his descendants as thus ineligible for the throne."
Formally, no carlist leader has ever made this claim to disqualify the offspring of Isabel II to the throne of Spain. 
It's a widely held belief, though, as D. Francisco de Asis (Isabel's husband) had some physical dysfunctions and , probably with reason, was libelled as homosexual. If you follow carlist (and republican) propaganda you'll find a lot of references to the currently reigning family as the "Puig-Moltó"'s, as that was the family name of the (presumed) lover of Isabel II at the time of Alfonso's conception.
There are a lot of  spanish Borbons of all branches and sexes, who have lead a "peculiar" (to be prude) lifestyle. But I'm not so sure "gossip" (and sometimes libel) belongs to an encyclopedia, unless it has had a public impact or has produced offspring; as it's customary to cite the Royal bastards, and they appear in most genealogical lists.
One case in question i want to put forward to the fellow wikipedianers. Charles (VII), duke of Madrid, led for some years after 1876 a "crazy life", which involved him in several scandals, some of them well publicised, even to the point to become the main figure of a french "vaudeville". Beside the PR desaster, this period saw the Pretender almost inactive, and overlaps with the Nocedal's ascendancy in the party. I have only sketchy details (via Jordi Canal's book), but ... does it belongs to Wikipedia ? Is this relevant ?
--Wllacer 10:31, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gossip removed from article body 

message: I've seen with dismail that a host of small changes have been made lately. The net result has been to give it a POV stance:
* The article now contains the ordinals of the "carlists pretenders" without parenthesis, and those of the actual kings and queens of Spain enclosed. This is contrary to ALL style conventions in encyclopedic works
* There are a host of small wordings which give the article a definitive "Sixtine" stance (plus all the links newly added, without giving notice of it)
* It has erased references (f.i. in Offshots and influence) to the left variant of Carlism (the so called "Carlos-Hugo")
Please refrain from further slanted contributions. And a plea to all to recover the article to is former (and better, i think) state
--Wllacer 12:12, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Changes POV 

message: What do the pictures illustrating the Ten Commandments and Universal Declaration of Human Rights have to do with this article? They don't seem to be mentioned in, or related to, the sections where they're included.  Are they merely decorative? 67.158.75.219 04:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, there is relevance.  The paragraph dealing with that was removed.  I have re inserted it.  It makes sense now. Stijn Calle 16:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relevance of images 

message: "Carlism is a traditionalist and legitimist political movement in Spain""Legitimist" was linked to Legitimists (redirects from Legitimism), which says "Legitimists are Royalists in France who believe that the King of France and Navarre must be chosen according to the simple application of the Salic Law."Legitimists (disambiguation) lists:
Legitimists, Royalists in France ...
Jacobitism, the political movement dedicated to the restoration of the Stuart kings to the thrones of England and ScotlandCarlists, a traditionalist, legitimist political movement in Spain ...Miguelistas, legitimists of PortugalLegitimists (Nicaragua)Under the circumstances, I have de-linked. -- 201.53.7.16 (talk) 19:30, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Legitimist" is most associated with the French but the term can and has been used for equivalent movements in other countries such as the Carlists or the British Jacobites. They have in common that they're all cases of a more purist order of succession that rejects outside (and sometimes inside) interference with the line, and their pretender and his followers are more associated with political absolutism, religious clericalism and cultural traditionalism than the rival monarchists. Timrollpickering (talk) 12:53, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: De-linking "legitimist"

message: In Basque , at least in the first war (1833-39), the Carlists were known as Txapelzuriak (White Berets) rather than as Red Berets (although incidentally most of the Carlist infantrymen were issued perhaps with blue berets).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:24, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This may be wrong, but I think female Carlists today wear white, while the men wear royal red. - Yorkshirian (talk) 08:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red Berets...or White Berets 

message: Why on Earth should we refer to Alfonso XIII of Spain as Alfonso de Borbón y Austria? Why should we call his cousin Carlos Hugo de Borbón-Parma y Borbón-Busset when he is known as "Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma" or "Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma"? Why should Austrians such as Archduke Anton of Austria be called "Antonio de Habsburgo-Lorena y Borbón"?
Why should an English language encyclopaedia use names that are commonly used by Spanish language sources and not by English language sources?
And what does Los Angeles has to do with this case? Los Angeles is the name used by English language sources. That can't be disputed. On the other hand, Alfonso de Borbón y Austria is not a name used by English language sources. The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 16:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, could you be a bit more specific? Should we use Spanish names or English names? The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 16:33, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What you are saying seems sensible to me. john k (talk) 16:36, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

text: No, the proper encyclopedic position would be to give only the names used in English because this encyclopaedia is in English. Why do we need invented Spanish names for the Germans? If it's "proper" to give Spanish names, why not give German names to the Austrians? Calling Alfonso XII "Alfonso de Borbón y Austria" is in no way helpful. The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 21:00, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

text: The part that says that we can add all sorts of irrelevant stuff into article. I highly doubt that the name "Antonio de Habsburgo-Lorena y Borbón" is a factual information. It seems like an original research, as I doubt Archduke Anton ever held Spanish nationality. No, why would it occur to me that someone would come here looking precisely for an invented Spanish name of an Austrian man? The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 22:04, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Names 

message: I have added some brief information, under the "The Succession after Alfonso Carlos" and "Alfonso de Borbón" sections, concerning the legal argument on the exclusion of Infante Francisco de Paula and his descendants from the throne on account of treason, as specified in the "Siete Partidas", the "Ordenamiento de Alcalá" and the "Novísima Recopilación". I have also added two footnotes that explain this in greater detail. I believe I have provided sufficient reference, but I'd be glad to add more should anyone think it necessary. -Waakzaamheid  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Waakzaamheid (talk • contribs) 20:58, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Francisco de Paula, Treason and the Siete Partidas. 

message: That is, The Daisies, because margarita is the Spanish for daisy. They seem to be named after Queen Margarita of Modena, one of Charles VII's wives. She was rather popular among the Carlist supporters, In the 1872-76 civil war some Carlist flags bore a daisy in each corner (although the fleur-the-lys was more common).Same for some Carlist decorations. More or less from the 1930s onwards there is a badge with a red cross of Burgundy with a daisy in the middle. In the early 1910s it was decided that Carlist females should use a white beret (and males a red one), although many Carlist women used the red beret as well.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:23, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Las Margaritas 

message: The page is protected so I can't add it, but Jacobitism was a similar movement in Britain and should be added to the see also section.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.212.76 (talk) 00:01, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also: Jacobitism? 

message: Yipes! Back when I read Carlist history I learned quite a bit about this branch of supporters of Archduke Karl Pius of Austria, but forgot as they seemed to have lost the rivalry for the claim to the Bourbon-Parmas. But they were a genuine splinter group who sought to offer an alternative to the Bourbon-Parma claimants and should, for the sake of accuracy, be mentioned, at some point -- although only briefly, lest the article skew unduly. Don't think I have much in my library drawn from RS, but surely somebody does? FactStraight (talk) 21:53, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: They are mentioned in the article as Habsburg-Borbon claim; and are usually refered as carloctavistas (never ever heard the cruzadista apellation). As a tendency (rather than organized group) its prime was in the mid 40' - early 50's (it is, previous to any Parma claim to the Throne) But the disinterest of the Tuscany princes (only one of the junior princes did for some time posed as Pretender) and the common perception that they were a "Troyan Horse" of the Movimiento, reduced them very soon to a marginal status--Wllacer (talk) 10:08, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cruzadistas 

message: Carlism is a counter-revolutionary ideology and should not be part of the series on Toryism, as Toryism represents a conservative, yet still revolutionary ideology usually opposing a more liberal but still revolutionary ideology, while Carlism wasn't at all revolutionary.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.17.113.211 (talk) 22:41, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Part of a series on Toryism? 

message: It is often difficult understanding Carlist ideas and values. But one important key to understand Carlism, often forgotten, is that traditions in Spain are very different from a province to another province. So, when we say "Carlism supports traditions" we mustnt forget these differences. Decade after decade Carlists have supported an idea in a province (or region) and the contrary idea in other provinces. Remember that many provinces in Spain have traditions that could well be called "Socialist" or even "Anarchist".79.146.12.60 (talk) 15:14, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  understanding Carlism 

message: "This line descended from Infante Carlos, Count of Molina (1788–1855), and was founded due to dispute over the succession laws and widespread dissatisfaction with the Alfonsine line of the House of Bourbon."
How could that be, when Carlism originated and was strongest decades before any Alfonso was even born? The reason Carlism existed is simple: Immovilism and a desire to go back to the time before the French Revolution, propagated mainly by the Church.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.26.120.40 (talk) 03:17, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Header section 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Carlism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090418162947/http://www.borboneparma.it:80/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=47 to http://www.borboneparma.it/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=47
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080509180521/http://www.maineworldnewsservice.com:80/caltrap/nonexist.htm to http://www.maineworldnewsservice.com/caltrap/nonexist.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100621091019/http://www.carlistas.es/ to http://www.carlistas.es/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070929010923/http://www.maineworldnewsservice.com/caltrap/dynasty1.htm to http://www.maineworldnewsservice.com/caltrap/dynasty1.htm
*Added  tag to http://www.cfnavarra.es/BINADI/Ventanas/NavegarLibro.aspx?intFase=100&intLibID=100&intPagID=0&tit=Album%20de%20personajes%20carlistas%20con%20sus%20biograf%c3%adas&aut=Oller%20,%20Francisco%20de%20Paula&mat= &imp=La%20Propaganda%20Catalana,%20Librer%c3%ada%20de%20Antonio%20Quintana%20y%20Bov%c3%a9%20 &ano=1887
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:09, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Carlism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080509180521/http://www.maineworldnewsservice.com/caltrap/nonexist.htm to http://www.maineworldnewsservice.com/caltrap/nonexist.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:17, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Carlism today is not a conservative ideology many Carlists today are left wing nationalist like Carlist Party (1970) promoting nationalism, socialism and federalism.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcisawesomeguy (talk • contribs) 05:12, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a late, splinter group (one of many). Carlism is not left-wing nationalist. Iñaki LL (talk) 08:23, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Both true and false. Just as Carlism also was founded upon and then abandoned Spain's Salic law -- that's why it's called "Carlism" (as in "Don Carlos)". Carlism has evolved in contradictory ways, being both an ultra-traditionalist movement of principle and a dynastic claim of princes. FactStraight (talk) 09:18, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Left-wing nationalist? 

message: A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Comunión Tradicionalista Carlista. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 17#Comunión Tradicionalista Carlista until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 21:42, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Comunión Tradicionalista Carlista" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: The flag depicted, what blessed nun Anna Catherina Emmerich called 'Raked Cross', it is also in the UK flag, but in plain straight lines, is the Cross of Burgundians, people coming from Bornholm island, and was for quite long the Spanish army and the Spanish national flag, until the current red and yellow flag, from Bourbon fleet, was adopted. Thus 'Carlism' had no preferent nor historical rights or traditions to wear this flag. 
During the first carlist war, in the 'Battle of Luchana', died a son of José Aymerich Varas, minister of war on duty from August 1824 to June 1825.
A man who had his son, an army officer, in charge of personal safety of Felipe, son of Juan Carlos ('Ferdinand the undesirable') was already not a Bourbon from male line, said about 'Requetés', the Carlist and Traditionalist soldiers who fought in the carlist wars and in the Revolution war 1931-39: 'Seres bajos, morenos, peludos, con cresta roja, que reunidos en manadas y aullando 'rediós', atacan al hombre' ('Short, dark, furry beings, with a red crest, who gathered in herds, and roaring 'rediós', attack humans'. 'Red crests' are from the 'Red berets' of these fighters.
General Franco, same surname of Yusif Franco, an hebrew sent to stake by inquisition in Seville, 15th century, in imitation of the 'Reunification' rule that built the nsdap from Deustche Arbeiters Partei and National Sozialist Partei, emitted an 'Unification decree', building 'Falange Española Tradicionalista y de las JONS' -'Juntas de ofensiva nacional-sindicalista', aka 'Movimiento Nacional' an organization to control possible overacting elements, MN never had a true political activity. Falange was a short lived group, from foundation by José Antonio Primo de Rivera in November 1933, to his imprisonment in april 1939, to his fusillade in november 1936, under charges of 'being the intellectual author of July 18 uprising'.
In february 1936, when the 'Popular Front' didn't win ballot, even with the massive fraud they implemented, Falange had some 20'000 affiliates, roughly same as communist party of Spain by Santiago Carrillo and Pasionaria, but in may 1939, there was 300'000 'falangists'. 
Requetés, traditionalists, were never very much organized, just some had affinities, in part coming from landlords, employers and some conservatives, had participated in 'Carlist' wars before their more notorious intervention in the counter-revolution war.
Very recently, an Orange man, akin to family acting on Dutch throne, signed an agreement in Barcelona to become 'Head of Carlism', shortly after Franco died, in a never explained event in 'Montejurra', during a Carlits-traditionalist meeting, some deaths by gun resulted. 
Carlism is today impossile to resuscitate, thus, thee performace of the Orange man could be just an act of psychological warfare, but: against who?
Blessings + --Caula (talk) 23:06, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mistakes and misbehavings