Talk:Salvation

message: ''
To include Mormons in the christian section of the article is incorrect. The only group discussed in that article who would claim otherwise are the mormons themselves. Mormons pull some common ideas from Christianity, but then so do Voodoo and Santeria. So if Mormons are included in the Christian section, then the two aforementioned religions should be included as well. The other option would be to create a new section (I would have no idea what to call it). That section could include (for lack of a better word) "fringe" groups who hold to doctrines that are so far removed from christian belief that the the doctrines nullify each other.
...
The point made regarding 'without works faith is dead' is fallacial. Those verses do not refer to salvation, they refer to sanctification. It is true that after salvation our work is not yet done. After salvation the process of being made holy starts (i.e., sanctification). We are called to strive for holiness ("Be holy, as your Father in Heaven is holy."), and this process can only start once the barrier of sin is removed...
This next point is not really related directly to the topic, but it refers to comments made about the topic...
If I was trying to make a point regarding salvation to a Jew, I would have to speak from the Old Testament for it to carry any weight with him/her, since Jews don't recognize the New Testament.. By the same token, a mormon trying to make a doctrinal point to Christians would need to use the Old and New Testaments only. Using the book of mormon to support an argument made to a Christian does not carry any weight, since we believe that Joseph Smith made it all up.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Virtua67 (talk • contribs) 01:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What?! Let's not think too muck like Sheri Shepard from the view.  --Firefly322 (talk) 14:54, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "To a Jew": It would depend on whether or not the "Jew" was a Christian.  But generally speaking what passes for  Judaism is not based on the OT/Tanach, but on the Talmuds, particularly from the Mishnah.  But since the whole Bible is the Word of God & thus has convicting power, you can use the entire Bible with anyone. (EnochBethany (talk) 15:14, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: "...Mormon / LDS view" 

message: Need to add something on Anonymous Christian--Firefly322 (talk) 16:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Anonymous Christian

message: Arminianism section of the Salvation article appears to me some misinformation.
"However, John Wesley taught that continued backsliding could inevitably lead to loss of faith, and consequently salvation, if left uncorrected."
This was not Wesley's position. Wesley's clearly taught that committing sin was the grounds for loss of faith which is lose of salvation.  Lose of faith didn't require continued sin accord to him.
I will drop back a bit later with citations for what I think is the correct position and what I suggest the article should be changed to. In the mean time perhaps there can be some input on this. bobmutch (talk) 02:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Arminianism section change suggested

message: This edit shows the removal by Slrubenstein of an introductory paragraph to the Judaism section written by me. Wheras my version tries to be categorical and logical in treating the concept within Judaism, Slr's version simply states that "Death and the question of life after death are not contral[sic] concerns in Judaism." I don't know if this is actually true, though I know Slr will come up sooner or later with a source to support this statement. Certainly Judaism has the concept of Olam Haba, and the Mishnah states, "this world is like a lobby before the World-To-Come. Prepare yourself in the lobby so that you may enter the banquet hall." SLr has not provided a source yet, so sourcing must not be the issue. Hence, he apparent dislikes using the basic abstract categorizations of salvation's dominant aspects, or even the relation of salvation to Judaism itself — which would appear to belie its inclusion in this article. Note, his statement "not particularly c[e]ntral" does not indicate that it lacks importance. Further, he redirects his own language with a "nevertheless" introduction to Pharisee-derived treatments, which appear to be quite, for lack of a better term, universalist in nature. Slr, why the redirection? I'm sure there is a better, more encyclopedic way of handling it. -Stevertigo 22:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Does not the Mishnah assert that you are damned if you deny the resurrection?  'l Israel have a portion in the world to come, for it is written: 'Thy people are all righteous; they shall inherit the land forever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.' But the following have no portion therein: one who maintains that resurrection is not a biblical doctrine, the Torah was not divinely revealed, and an Apikoros ("heretic").'  (EnochBethany (talk) 15:17, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Judaism changes by SLR and me 

message: I like SLR's decision to split a compound sentence into two, and qualify the judgment concept as belonging to particular religions. My only issue here is the removal of the link to conceptions of God, and this is largely due to the fact that its quite often more appropriate to refer to "x's concept of God" rather than to "the God of x" where x indicates a religion. Its a bit of a tangential issue within this context, but as a rule I would prefer to make a habit of linking to the concepts article. -Stevertigo 22:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lede changes by SLR 

message: An example of redemption using Darth Vader. Seriously? 99.240.146.252 (talk) 04:54, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed it, at least for now, even while considering that it might belong in a future "salvation in fiction" section. It's an extremely good example of science fiction treating salvation, and even better, it's an example where the apparent salvific result is not at all faithful to either truth or reality. Though Lucas, to his credit, was trying to deal with the impossible paradoxes regarding the salvation of some among his generation, and in any case his fictionalized product isn't any more unrealistic than many religions' special salvation doctrines. -Stevertigo 18:44, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fictional redemption 

message: ; Responses from AFAProf01
Thank you, User:Stevertigo, for taking the time to explain your reasoning. I must admit to finding some of your comments terse and sarcastic and don't believe I deserved that.
I don't know anything about Adventists and can't answer your question.
Re: angels. Am in total disagreement that such misinformation that is completely unsourced and is at best urban legend should be in this article, much less in the lede. The claim of "most people" belief does not justify placement. I cannot find even one citation to back up that proportion. I've always found "most people" to be a Weasel Phrase. Unless the following credible sources are wrong, then the severe criticism you leveled on my effort is uncalled-for:
* Angels are regarded as supernatural beings organized before God in a hierarchy (e.g., Dan. 7: 10; 9: 21). W. R. F. BROWNING. "angels." A Dictionary of the Bible. 1997. Encyclopedia.com. 17 Jun. 2009 .
* "Angels" (i.e., "messengers" of God) we ordinarily understand a race of spiritual beings of a nature exalted far above that of man, although infinitely removed from that of God—whose office is "to do him service in heaven" (Smith Bible Dictionary)
* "Angel": name of spiritual beings created by God but superior in nature to man. Some ancient Church fathers held that angels were created "before the heavens and all material things." (A Catholic Dictionary By William Edward Addis, Thomas Arnold p.25)
Seems like you are more concerned about your legalistic views of microcosms (viz., angels when you put a totally unsourced and spurious by all but folk lore standards) and gag at gnats in the name of NPOV violations. At some point, a greater good mentality needs to prevail when someone with good intentions tries to move the intro off the proverbial dime and it ignites an uncalled for flare of accusations of wrong intentions and ineptness.
I believe you to be a very talented and knowledgeable editor. I hope it's my misperception and not your intent that I sense a real negative, critical attitude in your comments (to me and to others). I am not overly sensitive and have fairly thick skin as an academician, but to me your critiques have been quite offensive. I respectfully request a change in your approach to sincere efforts. I'm a volunteer just as you are.
Meanwhile, let's do our best to end up with the best lede possible and believe the best of editing colleagues until someone proves us wrong.
* Be welcoming
* Be polite
* Assume good faith
* Avoid personal attacks
Regards, Afaprof01 (talk) 22:32, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Does this mean you don't want to discuss your edits with regard to redemption on their merits? I was actually looking forward to that. For purpose of disclosure, there was an error in the statement that you quoted that I just now corrected, with underline. Otherwise, I am sorry to see you have taken such an obtuse approach, such that I have to refer you to NPOV for review at your discretion. The warning, while perhaps overplayed, simply indicated that you are operating under certain inaccurate conceptions about how sources and NPOV writing interact, such that all of this discussion has been only to serve the advancement of your views. The angel issue was serendipitous, as it revealed your agenda. Again, if you have an issue with my comments, we can take this to a WP:DRR if you like. -Stevertigo 01:50, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Continued.. 

message: The article says:
"In Christianity Jesus is the source of salvation and faith in his saving power is stressed."
I agree.
Please help me stress this point in article Christian mysticism.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Torchrunner (talk • contribs) 02:30, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Christian salvation doctrine vs so called "Christian mysticism"

message: Noticed that it is no longer valid.
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.htm#chpt1
Gentoo-Michael (talk) 02:54, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Footnote 29 

message: Re: an editor's concern about capitalizing the “c” in "Church of Christ" or "Churches of Christ." IT SHOULD BE CAPITALIZED IN A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE. The following comes from a Church of Christ source:
Afaprof01 (talk) 03:28, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Church/Churches of Christ: capitalization rules 

message: One’s duty is to recognize the impossibility of being saved by one's own efforts, and therefore accept grace unconditionally.
:This idea of relinquishing personal responsibility in favor of believing solely in a supernatural power has been heavily criticized by many, yet I see none of this criticism in the article.  Is this an oversight? Viriditas (talk) 06:00, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The idea of "salvation" derives from a different source than the idea that a race of space aliens saves people. Perhaps what you meant is that relying on God alone puts the onus on God, rather than on oneself, and this creates problems such as the assumed salvation. That is a good point, but its a broader topic than can be contained here. It could be seeded here, but what would that seed be? -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 20:02, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism? 

message: The lede currently reads: 
:"The world's religions hold varying positions on what it means from an eternal perspective to become saved, the actual way to get saved, and the resources needed to attain salvation."
I added a  tag to "resources needed" because that language is jargon and doesn't appear to mean much in this context, or else is subtly POV in its design, perhaps referencing one or more of the Five solas as relevant to this topic. 
Its a particular theological position that people must gain qualifications for salvation, and that the properties of such attained qualifications can be then called "resources." The position itself is notably valid, but the language "resources" comes only from that POV. So even though the passage (a quotation of Valea) reads fluidly and appears to be universalist, it isn't, and doesn't belong in the lede.
As used in this context, "resource" means "personal resource" which is a term for some personal quality - character, knowledge, capacity - which facilitates something else. Charisma, for example, can be said to be a personal "resource" which facilitates greater socialization and to some degree interpersonal relationships (though this is debatable).
"Salvation" is something that God provides. You can cobble together the intelligences of all the theologians in the world, and they still won't have any capacity to provide salvation. Thus theology is not itself a "resource" for salvation. And the qualities which are not strictly in the bounds of theology which are "resources" for salvation - love, peace, good works - are not "resources" at all, but personal qualities. So, the term is at best Valea's casual jargon, coming from a point of view which regards salvation as a theological achievement, rather than a gift. It needs to be put in context as coming from such POV, or else it needs to be put elsewhere. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 17:30, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It was far too wordy! I trimmed it greatly and in the process took out your tag. The trimmed text is clear enough for a lead section. Binksternet (talk) 18:27, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: FFR, provide a diff: . Its usable. PS: Note the issue though was not that it was "wordy" but that it was POV. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 18:44, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Qualifications 

message: The following sentence is obviously not the point of view of every religion, on the meaning of salvation, which this page is about, so I've moved it from the lede to this place on the Talk page.
"One’s duty is to recognize the impossibility of being saved by one's own efforts, and therefore accept grace unconditionally."
One obvious exception would be the idea of salvation in Buddhism, which this page does seem to incorporate. Even if it is going to be just about the Christian idea of salvation then it needs to be reworded to reflect that this is a view point of Christians, rather than a statement about life in general with a 'should' in it, as if Jay-Z were to say, "Get money, get money," and then it were found on Wikipedia that, "One's duty in life is to get money, get money."
Another big reason for this quote being moved here is that not all Christians believe that salvation occurs by the means of one giving up to God, and this has been a discussion for some time, as to whether salvation comes through one's own efforts or by the grace of God, and by acceptance of God. This argument would need to be mentioned somehow for an idea like this to be present on this page. I think this would be a productive direction for this to go in. makeswell (talk) 23:59, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay so this page, Semi-pelagianism discusses the issue in more depth, perhaps somebody would add it to Salvation. makeswell (talk) 00:02, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  grace through one's will or through God's will? 

message: There is one obvious misrepresentation with the Arminian section used in this article. Using Calvinist authors to express Arminian beliefs would OK, if they accurately described what Arminians hold to. Unfortunately, Steele, Thomas, and Quinn do not accurately describe Arminianism when they write: "The serious effects of the fall did not leave humanity in a state of total spiritual helplessness. (A position known as Semi-pelagianism)." This statement is simply false, especially if anyone has read from the Works of James Arminius or John Wesley. Even Reformed Calvinists, such as Robert A. Peterson and Michael D. Williams, acknowledge that Arminianism is not Semi-Pelagian. They write,
:Does the antipathy between Calvinism and Arminianism suggest that Pelagius, the arch-opposite of Augustine, is the proper ancestor of Arminianism?  Calvinists have often sought to paint Arminianism in Pelagian colors.  Associating your opponent with a position that the historic faith has repeatedly judged heretical can only help one’s cause.  However, the allegation that Arminianism is Pelagian is unfortunate and indeed unwarranted.  From Jacob Arminius and the ‘Remonstrance Articles’ on, the Arminian tradition has affirmed the corruption of the will by sin and the necessity of grace for redemption.  Arminianism is not Pelagianism….The Semi-Pelagians thought of salvation as beginning with human beings.  We must first seek God; and his grace is a response to that seeking.  The Arminians of the seventeenth century, however, held that the human will has been so corrupted by sin that a person cannot seek God without the enablement of grace.  They therefore affirmed the necessity and priority of grace in redemption.  Grace must go before a person’s response to the gospel.  This suggests that Arminianism is closer to Semi-Augustinianism than it is to Semi-Pelagianism or Pelagianism. (Why I Am Not An Arminian, 39)
The myth that Arminians are Pelagian or Semi-Pelagian is dispelled by Arminian Scholar Roger Olson in his book Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities (see Myth #6). Olson dispels 10 myths that continue to circulate in popular literature or by word of mouth. He dispels these myths by tracing the Arminian position as espoused by Jacobus Arminius, Simon Episcopius, John Wesley, 19th Century Methodists, and 20th Century Evangelical Arminians. Olson offers a historical mode of argumentation: he identifies the tradition of genuine Arminian thought, distinguishing it from Calvinism on the one side and its supposed bad reputation on the other. This historical approach allows the classical authors to speak for themselves through copious quoting, and accordingly initiates the reader into the Arminian tradition. A must read for anyone wanting to accurately articulate Arminian theology.
Another misrepresentation (but only subtle) found in this article was the phrase: "The Arminian emphasis on free will, or more properly free choice, is important in salvation." Classical Arminians have not emphasized free will as it pertains to salvation, rather, they have emphasized (first and foremost) God's free grace (prevenient grace) given to all sinners, and God's loving intention to provide salvation to all sinners. See Myth #4 and #7 in Olson’s book for documentation of this. It is fair, reasonable, and scholarly, to allow Calvinist and Arminian scholars/theologians to explain their own theological position. Of course, this requires that we do the hard work of reading from their primary writings. Because of these two misrepresentations, I have changed the section on Arminianism. I have copied a section from Arminianism in Wikipedia (with minor editing) that better represents Arminian beliefs. ThanksClassArm (talk) 20:26, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reason for changes to Arminian view 

message: That section closely echoes material written by the same editor in collective salvation, which is up for deletion for being massively POV against liberation theology, social justice, etc. (see Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Christianity#Problem article and the relevant AfD discussion). While I recognize that collective salvation is part of modern Christian conversation, I think the claims in the section here are too broadly generalized to be accurate representations of views of salvation in liberal Christian thought. Notice the snide comment in the opening sentence that emerging and progressive churches "claim" to be part of Christianity. I'd delete the entire section, but I'd like to see what others think is salvageable. Thanks, Aristophanes68 (talk) 00:38, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have access to the sources not available online, but those I can read don't mention salvation at all. Even worse, they don't say all of what they're cited for, either. The section seems a rather dubious mix of off-topic original research, synthesis and misused sources, possibly with a POV problem thrown in for good measure. And is it just me, or is that first sentence's grammar broken? Huon (talk) 01:45, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed that section for now. We can surely write something about salvation in liberation theology (well, I can't because I wouldn't even know where to look for reliable sources on the subject), but this wasn't even the beginning of a good section on that topic. Huon (talk) 16:22, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Liberal/liberation theology section 

message: 99.246.101.166 just re-added a lenghty section on salvation in Islam that's devoid of any secondary sources, with an edit summary of: "You may choose to walk into the nearest mosque and verify this yourself. You must keep in mind that not everyone speaks english, and not evey information exists in all languages." First of all, the English Wikipedia does allow non-English sources if no English sources are available, per WP:NONENG. Secondly, I doubt that there are no English sources on salvation in Islam; Google Books provides lots of results; unfortunately they don't necessarily agree with what we say. For example, this one argues that "salvation" isn't that important a concept in Islam at all, with a single occurrence in the Qu'ran (which 99's lengthy text conveniently omits). Thirdly, "go ask in a mosque" does not satisfy Wikipedia's policy of verifiability. Huon (talk) 02:52, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand the sensitive nature of wikipedia's collaborative editing nature, and hence its guidelines , thus I will not disagree or agree with you I am afraid. As for the points you raised, proper English sources are indeed scarce, if available, at all concerning Islam. Unfortunately, this is the case even with those English sources written by Arab Muslims. The reason being is that these books are written for ease of comprehension in mind. You have to keep in mind that the Islamic scripture is in Arabic, not any other language. If you know Arabic, pick any book on Islamic jurisprudence (shariah), books that contain everything from washroom etiquettes to finance and economy, and you will find that they are all concerned with referencing the scripture, before they are concerned about referencing other sources. Do not misunderstand, these books usually mention the points of view from all schools of thought (conflicting as they may be), but they MUST reference all pertaining scripture, otherwise they are complete rubbish. Even when referencing other sources, these sources themselves must have referenced the scripture.  The other point to keep in mind, is that there is NO English Quran, or English Hadith; these are only translations of the Quran and Hadith to the best ability of the writers, and they will never be free from the faults and biases of the respective authors. In other words, any Islamic book referencing translations would be frowned upon. Hence, it is impossible to write a proper Islamic book, whether of law, or philosophy, or a concept, without including Arabic at all. Again these are NOT my ideas, ask any learned Muslim person, and he will tell you the same thing. Islam is strictly Axiomatic (fundamentalist), like mathematics. Why? Because it is strictly Monolithic. A Muslim worships God, not some author, hence he is only really concerned with the scripture. Even with fatwa, all scholars mention the scripture. If you are really interested, learn Arabic, find a mosque and read from its library, then come back and correct me if I am wrong. Did you know that the Islamic scripture is only the Quran (God's word according to Muslim belief), and the authority of the Hadith (Prophet Muhammed's word) had to be established from the Quran? I hope you are seeing how strict it is. I hope now you understand why proper English sources are scarce, if  existent at all. Of course, if you want something to get by, there are many, but if you want English books of proper treatise on the subject, books that honesty would allow there use as secondary sources, there are virtually none. As for the point concerning salvation, yes indeed the way salvation is mentioned in Christianity has no meaning in Islam, there is no disagreement there. This is why at the beginning of the section about Islam it is explained to be about the "eventual entrance to heaven", which pertains to points three and four of the introduction.  One final point, I only ever made edits on Wikipedia to Muslim sections, not Christians sections, not Hindu sections, not whatever. I am not questioning your morals. As a matter of fact I only responded because of the complete opposite, I left the article after my last "undo" edit thinking "forget it, it will be removed again", only to my surprise find it today still there. We live in an ever so open a world, yet ever so disconnected. Keep that in mind when you think about that Wikipedia guideline.--99.246.101.166 (talk) 15:08, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Salvation in Islam 

message: The article contained an image of the sons of Core. On the one hand, Core (or Korah) and his sons are not mentioned at all in the article text, and the image caption did not explain their relevance. On the other hand, I doubt whether not being killed by God can be called "salvation". Thus I have removed the image. Huon (talk) 19:46, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sons of Core image 

message: Should not encyclopædiæ be secular?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.189.165.11 (talk) 13:24, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: By our policy on a neutral point of view, Wikipedia should. How do you feel this article violates neutrality? Are there any parts where a religious view is endorsed instead of described? Huon (talk) 16:44, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Critical thinking 

message: The 1st problem with this topic is to define "Judaism."  Does the term exclude the Tanach?  IMHO, yes.  However, also IMHO, one can discuss SALVATION IN THE MISHNAH.  Here for starters is a quote from Kurt Michaelson from the internet:
:"In E.M.B. Green’s book, The Meaning of Salvation, he describes the perspective of salvation by a particular group of Jewish people in the days of the Old Testament, the Sadducees.
:"The Sadducees were men of strong political influence that came from a family lineage of religious nobility and wealthy property owners. In the governing of affairs, they were not very cooperative people, often stubborn, yet conservative in their temperament, which both of these characteristics were unusual among this group of individuals.
:"The Sadducees understanding of salvation, in the first century is from the following Mishnah tractate, “Salvation for Israel lies in cooperation with the ruling powers. You may not like the Romans, but it is folly to oppose them. Politics is the art of the possible. And so long as we hold power in Israel we shall endeavor to keep her from the madness revolt which those hot-headed zealots are always urging. If the Pharisees like to dream of hopes of an after-life, where the tables are turned and all the righteous saved, good luck to them. We are concerned with the harsh realities of life as it is.”[7]
:"This gives the reader a better understanding regarding the questioning of Peter and John concerning the authority they had to perform miraculous signs or speak about salvation, the liberty, deliverance or safety (salvation) of the Jewish people.
:"People in our present day society have a similar mentality, like the Sadducees, concerned only with the present difficulties of life without concern for the after-life, which is quite similar to that of an atheistic worldview. Yet, the Talmud (Mishnah) tractate Sanhedrin 10:1-3 and Talmud tractate Rosh Hashana 16b and 17a are convincingly filled with references to judgment and reward in the afterlife, with even a few stories of those who went there and came back to tell others about it. The Talmud insists that a convert be warned that most of the reward and punishment will not be in this world and should be quickly disillusioned. Such is the perspective of many people in the present as well of those who are non-Jewish also." --http://www.kurtmichaelson.org/2009/04/nor-is-there-salvation-in-any-otherby.html.  Again, IMO, it is utter hogwash to claim that in Judaism an after-life is not an important topic. For it seems to me outrageous to define Judaism as something that excludes the Mishnah; for crying out loud!  It may be true that for the average person who considers himself Jewish in modern society, the afterlife & Gehenna are unimportant; but that is another question. The reader is encouraged to Google on the topic: Gehenna (Greek γέεννα), Gehinnom (Hebrew: גהנום/גהנם) & Yiddish Gehinnam. (EnochBethany (talk) 15:43, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: SALAVATION IN JUDAISM

message: I just reverted some of EnochBethany's recent changes to the article. In particular:
* Capitalization in "Yahweh, the god of Israel": Here, "god" is a description, not a name, and it should not be capitalized. 
* Abrahamic religions: The claim that "One cannot prove that either Islam or Judaism (i.e., Talmudism) is Abrahamic" strikes me as rather strange. We have an entire well-sourced article on the concept, and all that is necessary to be "Abrahamic" is the acknowledgement of Abraham as an important figure in one's religion. Both Islam and Judaism do so.
* For the claim that OT salvation is just the same as NT salvation I would like to see a better source than a random website. The text which EnochBethany replaced seems a mostly correct summation of Brueggemann, at the very least more correct than what EnochBethany put in its place.
Huon (talk) 16:39, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  EnochBethany's changes 

message: "Analogous concepts within other religions, such as nirvana and moksha, are not in fact equivalents to the concept of salvation, not least because these latter concepts are not reliant upon divine agency."
This article is misinformed. Likewise, there is a severe and disparate argument on soteriology, which this article claims is directly related to salvation. The text regarding Buddhism on the soteriology article is far from accurate either. If we are going to accept that salvation necessitates a reliance upon a divine agency (a restriction that I would dispute) Buddhism still asserts salvation in Pure Land Buddhism which uses a direct reliance upon a divine agency - Amitābha Buddha.  The history of pure land salvation within Buddhism is antique, and may be reliably traced back to India.
Therefore 'salvation' as a term is not exclusive to abrahamic religion, even within the constraint of being reliant upon divine agency. 
====The constraint of reliance upon divine agency ====
The dictionary gives two definitions of salvation - neither of which assert the constraint of reliance upon divine agency.
* Preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss
* Theology: deliverance from sin and its consequences
One could argue that sin itself implies divine law, and that the Karma of the Dharma religions has no eye (and therefore one cannot sin in a Dharma religion), but let's use WP as a source: "A sin is an act that violates a known moral rule in a religion".  (20040302 (talk) 11:09, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: While I tend to agree, do you have any reliable sources to that effect? Huon (talk) 14:03, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Buddhism 

message: The dictionary gives two definitions of salvation - neither of which assert the constraint of reliance upon divine agency.
* Preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss
* Theology: deliverance from sin and its consequences
One could argue that sin itself implies divine law, and that the Karma of the Dharma religions has no eye (and therefore one cannot sin in a Dharma religion), but let's use WP as a source: "A sin is an act that violates a known moral rule in a religion".  (20040302 (talk) 11:09, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: While I tend to agree, do you have any reliable sources to that effect? Huon (talk) 14:03, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: The constraint of reliance upon divine agency 

message: Paul Williams, Mahayana Buddhism, Routledge 1989  
p251: The most widespread of cults devoted to Buddhas is that of Amitabha or Amitayus. In contemporary Japanese Buddhism it accounts for more practitioners than any other Buddhist tradition, and in these forms in practice it most nearly approaches a devotional monotheism.
ibid, p259: Through the power of Amitabha even the worst sinner [...] can attain to the Pure Land (Amitabha's pure land)
ibid, p259: Once one abandons recourse to one's own resources all activities can be seen as Other Power, the salvific activity of Amitabha working through us. But reciting his name in accordance with the sutra exemplifies Amitabha's power to save most fully. 
(20040302 (talk) 09:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:RS]] regarding salvation in [[Pure Land Buddhism]]

message: The current article needs WP:RS to back up it's assertion. As I pointed out, there is no basis for the existing argument.
Likewise, the article starts with In theology - well, WP isn't solely concerned with theology. It certainly isn't solely concerned with Abrahamic theology.
(20040302 (talk) 09:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:RS]] "salvation reliant upon divine agency"

message: The existing introduction (the one favoured by User:Huon) as well as being unrepresentative of a worldwide view of the subject does not have appropriate references. This was noted some time ago and subsequently ignored by this user. Thanks to User:20040302 for appending tags to these. The academic study of soteriology states that salvation is a foundational concept present in the majority of the worlds great religions. According to the Oxford English Dictionary that which is saved is the soul (from sin and its consequences) and it does not necessarily imply divine agency. Soteriology advocates that salvation refers to the end-point or goal of religious practise and is synonymous with the liberation experienced by the saint. From the point of view of metaphysics it refers to the subjective experience of timelessness (eternity) that arises when the psyche has become free from the conditions (called samskaras or sankharas in Indian religion) which limit it in ordinary consciousness. 81.106.127.14 (talk) 22:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, my reversion to the intro of November 5th (do check it out) has been automatically reverted by an automated program called Cluebot. Instant karma or the will of the Lord? 81.106.127.14 (talk) 22:13, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: worldwide view

message: 81.106.127.14 has changed the lead in an attempt to clarify the distinctions between Protestant and Catholic doctrines of salvation. However, before his edits that paragraph contrasted the Christian views to the Islamic views, and the Islamic position has now been ascribed to Catholic and Orthodox Christianity. I doubt that's correct. And while there are subtle differences between the different branches of Christianity, I don't think they're important enough for the lead of this article which should focus on salvation in general, not just salvation in Christianity. Huon (talk) 17:44, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes to the lead 

message: The section on Christianity says this: "Redemption is synonymous with salvation to Christians."  This is actually a false (misrepresentative) statement, since the Roman Catholic Church (the largest single Christian denomination on Earth) makes a distinction between redemption and salvation.  This is one of the defining characteristics of RC versus Protestant theology.  The statement should be amended to say that the two are synonymous to "many" Christians, and the alternate view should be explained and given.  I am not sure what sources would be good for citation, but it wasn't too hard for me to find Catholic sources as well as other Christian sources.  It's also curious that, as the previous section indicates, the lead on the article had been changed to reflect differences between Protestant and Catholic views but the Christianity section omits the Catholic view. 206.169.175.130 (talk) 00:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Salvation vs. Redemption 

message: A fair number of Muslims think that non-Muslims won't necessarily go to Hell. For example; http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/13564/can-mother-teresa-a-non-muslim-go-to-heaven/ and http://www.quora.com/Islam/According-to-Islam-will-non-Muslims-ever-go-to-heaven and there are other people who say it also but I've just given 2 examples. A number of Muslims say that only God knows who will go to Heaven and who won't. Something's going to have to be done. 86.40.141.29 (talk) 17:54, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Islam section

message: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_salvationist_religions  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.47.7.176 (talk) 08:24, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  There should be some mention of Chinese salvationist religions 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Salvation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://archive.is/20130704012232/http://religions.findthedata.org/q/2/1475/How-do-I-achieve-salvation-according-to-Judaism to http://religions.findthedata.org/q/2/1475/How-do-I-achieve-salvation-according-to-Judaism
*Added archive http://webarchive.loc.gov/all/20011120113909/http://gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/serm-043.stm to http://gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/serm-043.stm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20000311121352/http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/cdffeeney.txt to http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/cdffeeney.txt
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The section on taoism is barely a stub and has been written poorly. Someone with the speciality should improve it. FropFrop (talk) 10:02, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Taoism needs expansion and editing