Talk:Lists of Jews/Archive 1

message: Why on earth do we need such an article! What good does listing people by their faith? An article of famous religous figures, ok, i could see the point. But most of these persons have nothing to do with Judaism. Or would you list George Lucas as a famous Christian?  Why have the authors of these list this need to list jewish persons? A hidden Judophobia? And then these 
weird discussions about half- and quarter- Jews, terms I last heard in school when dealing with NAZI racial laws. Please, delete this article, 82.82.52.252 23:09, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am proud to have contributed to this list.  The more people who realise how much our Jewish brothers and sisters are contibuting to our well-being and enjoyment, the better.  And anyone whom Hitler and the Nazis would have regarded as Jewish ought to be included.RachelBrown 20:44, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Why is this article so controversial? I don't see any objections on the talk pages of, say, List of Italians or List of Japanese people. Wouldn't those be just as "disgusting"? —Chowbok 16:16, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
The total extent of this list seems a bit unnecessary. The list of Muslims on the other hand seems to be more useful, pertaining to seemingly more important historical characters (caliphs and disciples). I don't see the need to list every single B-list (or even A-list) Jewish celebrity out there. The US has a large and successful Jewish population. Just not entirely sure Wikipedia needs to list every single one member of that population.
Also, one could look at it in an anti-semetic POV - and this argument was already had on the Adbusters article . --EVApilot 23:40, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The idea of this list is disgusting! 

message: Do the Israeli politicians really need to be there? I mean, I suppose it's possible that sometime in the distant future, it won't be obvious that an Israeli politician is Jewish, but I don't imagine anyone in 2003 is in doubt as to the ethnicity or religion of any PM of that country since 1948.
:OT: Not all Israeli politicians are Jewish, although most of them obviously are. There are Arab (Christian / Muslim) members of the Knesset (Israeli Parliament) too.--Joeboy 15:22, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Israeli politicians

message: Also, should there be a distinction drawn between entertainers famous for being Jewish (it's their shtick, if you will), such as Woody Allen and those who just are, such as Lisa Kudrow?--Calieber 18:22, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Entertainers

message: Perhaps this list could be made smaller and thus more useful - it's a little bit unhelpful to include Jesus with Disreil with Daniel Pearl. However, I don't think that it's ridiculous to have a list of truly important Jews, since that could be an important resource for someone reaserching, for instance, Jewish History.
-Alex S
: I moved this back to List of Jews to be consistent with other lists of people by belief/ethnicity. Martin
I really agree the list needs needs to be cut down. If you call a page "List of Jews", naturally the people listed there should be Jews. The Jewishness of people like Max Baer Jr. and Nick Carter is remote in an ethnic sense and nonexistent in a religious sense. Nobody could reasonably call them Jews. Plus you have people like Orlando Bloom and Bernie Ecclestone who, to my knowledge, have not been confirmed as Jewish by any reputable source. An encyclopedia should contain facts, not unsubstantiated speculation. I have nothing against a list of famous Jewish people, as long as it is accurate.
--Aardvark114 06:02, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Make list smaller

message: How can Bobby Fischer belong to this list if he denies that he is a Jew and is known for his judophobia?
*He is on the list because he is ethnically Jewish. See www.jewhoo.com for more than you'd like to know about Bobby Fischer.
**he has repeatedly said himself that he is not a jew. his father was a german and his mother was a non-religious christian american.  according to *some* jews, his mother was 1/4 jewish. i guess that makes him a jew!!  this is sick.  even if his mother was jewish, which according to bobby fischer himself she was not, still that does not make hima jew because in addition to HATING jews and judaism, his father was clearly not a jew.
***Actually, his biological father was possibly a Hungarian Jew (see http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/4535883.htm ). His mother was almost certainly Jewish. Clearly Bobby Fischer does not identify as Jewish, and is not Jewish in a religious sense. However, he is (at least partly) Jewish in ethnicity, and this may be worthy of note (just as it would be for an Arab-hater born to an Arab mother, or Russian-hater born to a Russian mother).
Yeah, I think that it would be valuable to identify an individual as 'partly Jewish by heritage', and also to note that (does not identify self as Jewish). Gzuckier 16:54, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Bobby Fischer and Judophobia

message: There are several people on this list that are 1/2 or 1/4 Jewish. Should the amount of their Jewishness (ethnic) be listed like in parenthesis after their description? Should they be removed? What is the consensus. ThereIsNoSteve 23:21, 23 Sep 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: I think putting the "amount of jewishness" in the parenthesis would be a good idea. If we remove them there will always be someone who will argue that they are Jews. Bogdan 19:04, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)

text: Whether or not a list of Jews is a good or reasonable idea -- and it certainly seems debatable (and I have contributed a number of names to this list) -- getting into "amount of Jewishness" on the basis of parentage is so similar to the Nazi conception of racial purity (and to the orthodox Jewish conception of Jewishness, which I find "racist" in its own way), that I think we would be getting into dangerous and unsupportable ground by doing so.  Seems to me it's enough that a person is Jewish either because they decide they are, regardless of parentage or upbringing, or because they have enough ancestry or family background, whether it's all or some, to believe that their Jewish background affected who they were/are or how society responded to or defined them or how they responded to that response or definition.  I think we'd be getting into big trouble if we end up arguing about who was more Jewish, Sammy Davis Jr., Proust, or Wittgenstein.  Jeremy J. Shapiro 21:35, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: 1/2 and 1/4 Jews

message: I think describing people as "heroes" is POV. Describing Ariel Sharon as a war hero is certainly POV. I'm going to make more neutral. Secretlondon 11:26, Nov 21, 2003 (UTC)
:Describing someone as a hero is certainly POV.  Describing someone as a "war hero" is much less so, if at all.  Sharon, due to his wartime exploits, was viewed as a hero - thus, a war hero, whether or not he actually was a "hero."  On the other hand...would we be willing to describe, say, Nazi Generals as war heroes?  If not, then I think you're right. john 20:36, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Heros or not

message: Page moved (back) according to Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Lists. The user who moved it in the first place didnt even fix all those double redirects! --Jiang 08:17, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move 

message: Actually Charlie Chaplin was NOT a jew just empathised with them during anti-semtic era of 30's and 40's. Please do not begin a famous Buddhists/Catholics/Moslems page. What purpose does it honestly serve except perhaps to disseminate false info as in the case of Chaplin.Norwikian 09:28, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, doesn't it serve the purpose of disseminating correct information and dispelling false information, as in the case of Chaplin? Anthony DiPierro 04:03, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Charlie Chaplin was not Jewish

message: The following text was reverted from the article (by Zigger 22:50, 2004 Apr 11 (UTC)) as it is discussion:
::The above disclaimer fails to mention that this page also contains people who are neither. see the following paragraph.
::It must be noted that some of these people are not jews, as you must convert or have been born to a jewish mother to be jewish. Lenny Kravitz is not a Jew. I don't know which other people here are wrongly so labeled but the system should be to name whether they are jewish by conversion or mother and the source of this information. This is an encyclopedia people, not a place for palaver!
*What's the purpose of this page? 81.225.8.80 19:14, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Disclaimers

message: I have done a fairly major edit on this page. 
*I have deleted all dates of birth and death and all "(born Robert Zimmerman)" etc, since this information is available in the articles the names link to. 
*I have dewikified virtually everything except the names, except specifically Jewish subjects. Readers do not need dozens of links to "US" or "writer." 
*I have greatly reduced the descriptions - readers can look in the articles. 
*I have standardised all "American" to "US." 
*I have reorganised the categories to break up the biggest ones. 
*I have deleted a lot of POV.
*I have added some names, but deleted none except for some duplications.
I would suggest, however, deleting the "Biblical figures" altogether. We could obviously, if we wanted, list the entire cast of the Old Testament and much of the New, to no really good purpose since most of them are of dubious, or at least unknowable, historicity.
Adam 12:06, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits and deletions

message: Can anybody include include these people in the list ? 
*Israel Shahak
*Judith Steinberg Dean
*Adolf Abraham Halevi Fraenkel
*Giulio Racah
*Avraham Stern
*Tanya Reinhart
*Elyakim Rubinstein
*Michael O. Rabin
*Saul Lieberman
*Baruch Kimmerling
*Saharon Shelah
*David Avidan
*Joseph Klausner
*Amos Tversky
*Yehoshua Porath
*Dalia Rabikovich
*Moshe Greenberg
*Jacob Bekenstein
Bogdan | Talk 13:39, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Adding names

message: What are the rules? For example, does a person belong on the list if their father was a Jew, but not their mother, and they don't practice the religion or consider themselves as Jews? ChessPlayer 05:57, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems so, yes. but this should be noted: eg, William Cohen (Jewish father) Adam 06:27, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rules for Appearing on the List 

message: Please explain how Stephen Demetre Georgiou is Jewish?  RickK 05:07, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, he's British, not American.  RickK 05:12, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Cat Stevens?

message: Traci Lords is not Jewish and has no Jewish ancestry. She has claimed to be Jewish, as is the case with Courtney Love, who also has no Jewish ancestry (her mother's stepfather was Jewish but that's as far as it goes with Ms. Love).
*Actually Lords' father was a Ukranian Jew.
http://www.thefab.net/movies/m13_traci_lords_01.htm
:Though reported on a number of websites, this is actually exceptionally unlikely (adult star bios are often full of errors). She makes no mention of it in her recent autobiography, and Ukrainian steelworkers were almost exclusively non-Jewish. She also mentions a paternal grandmother named "Mary", and her mother's refusal to have a church wedding. Juko 00:47, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Traci Lords and Courtney Love

message: Please cite a reputable source as to Lenin having Jewish ancestry (the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is not a reputable source).
:The New York Times once had an article about Lenin's partial Jewish ancestry, it's a job for someone to track down. IZAK 07:24, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Lenin

message: Isn't it a bit redundant to put US after the name of the US politician since it has already been established by the section title US Politicians that they are a political figure in the US, For example where it says:
Gary Ackerman, US Congressman from New York
Shouldn't it read:
Gary Ackerman, Congressman from New York
since again it has already been established that he is a US Politican by article section title.
Misterrick 03:10, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Misterrick, you are right, let me correct this...IZAK 02:34, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  US Politicians 

message: I strongly disapprove of having a section entitled "victims."  I also disapprove of people being moved out of other sections to be put into a section entitled "victims."  Ga. john k 06:22, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: "Victims" Section

message: Why is there a list of Jewish criminals. Is there a list of other ethnic criminals? I think this is unfair.165.247.47.250 (Talk | contribs)
Well, there was a pretty solid Jewish presence in organized crime at one time (the purple gang, et al), which makes that part of the list historically significant, like Italian criminals would be, but Norweigan criminals would presumably not be; maybe it should be retitled? (Apparently there is a resurgence of Jewish criminals among the 'Russian mafia' but that's kind of a different thing and has a different spin on it these days so we can leave it pass....) Personally I'm dubious about 'Jewish spies'. That doesn't have an organizing principle behind it the way historical Jewish organized crime does, (except for Joshua, Caleb, et al) so it's like one step up from 'jews who overcharged me for candy bars when i was a kid'. Gzuckier 16:31, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Why is there a list of Jewish criminals?

message: Why are people adding entries to these lists out of order? Surely it cannot be too difficult to slot them in in the right place? --Nevilley 11:20, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alphabetical order 

message: Not sure what purpose this list serves. Nevertheless, I've removed Bernie Ecclestone and Rupert Murdoch as it is very unlikely that either of them is (even partly) Jewish. In both cases, claims of their Jewishness appear only on far-right websites. In Murdoch's case, it's presumably derived from his pro-Israeli views and his mother's maiden name (Greene, which sounds like Green). In fact, like her namesake Graham Greene (before he converted), Murdoch's mother is probably an Anglican: she went to an Anglican school and contributes heavily to the Melbourne Anglican Foundation.
*Removing positively doubtful names is important. By the way, could you please sign your name next time. Thanks. IZAK 05:33, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Errors 

message: any strong feelings regarding adding a section of 'african-american' (which may also potentially include 'african-british' or some such) jews? Everybody knows about sammy davis jr. and some folks know about lenny kravitz and lisa bonet, but there are many more out there who have organized themselves and are somewhat active in forging an identity. Me, I think it's nontrivial, nonracist, is information most people don't have at hand already, and would be informative, which is the point of wikipedia after all, and is why the 'list of jews' is here, regardless of some folks' not being happy about it. Somewhere, sometime, somebody is going to want to check whether Courtney Hole and/or Yaphet Kotto are Jewish for a term paper or something and we want to be useful to them. Gzuckier 16:20, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: list of 'african-american jews'

message: Someone keeps on re-inserting the name of Elvis Presley as having a "Jewish" grandparent. This is not common knowledge and no-one has ever claimed this (I guess maybe it's maybe just another instance of an "Elvis sighting" this time on the "List of Jews" :-) ) Does anyone know if Elvis had any known and even vaguely verifiable Jewish ancestors? Thank you. IZAK 03:18, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elvis (sighting/citing?) 

message: betty boop?
well her father was jewish, in a manner of speaking. Gzuckier 14:33, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  fictional character addition 

message: If he was born with the name Barry Pincus, I'm guessing not just his mother was Jewish.Gzuckier 18:56, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Barry Manilow

message: I added Rudolf Vrba to the "victims" section but I don't like it because he was more noted for his heroism than for his victimhood.  Can I suggest a section called "Holocaust related" (or similar name) for people whose fame is closely associated with the Holocaust?  There are a fair number of people on the page who would fit that category well.  --Zero 10:35, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Holocaust category

message: Well, for one thing, all it takes is a glance at it to tell you we need more biographies of Jewish military figures, and to a lesser extent Jewish sports figures. Gzuckier 20:06, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Use of the list

message: Perhaps we should remove this and turn this all into categories.Nick Catalano 08:05, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Categories don't capture people for whom there is no Wikipedia article. Jayjg (talk) 15:50, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: Jews are a people, not members of a faith group; typical classifications do not readily apply. Jayjg (talk) 15:49, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to point out that, although nonJews may not be familiar with this, Jews frequently note/discuss whether a particular figure is 'Jewish' in the sense of this page; religious, by heredity, converted to, converted from, had a great-grandfather, etc. etc. This is not restricted to Jews, of course, nonJews are freely invited to participate in these discussions. It's neither antiSemitic nor a part of the cabal's plans for world conquest, it's just kind of a hobby, not all that different in spirit from genealogy. I would guess most nationalities/minorities have similar pastimes. So, for those who are nonJewish and fear this page is antiSemitic in intent or possibility, please be reassured. Otherwise, I'd have to say it serves the rather innocuous needs of Jewish people who indulge in this sort of speculation to while away the time, and as such should not be eliminated or restricted to more rigid standards of Judaic identity. Gzuckier 20:48, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am reminded of being in an argument about the occupation of the West Bank in which the defender of the occupation accused those opposed to it of being anti-Semites - although 2 of the 4 with that stance were Jewish.  It is a strange thing, to be sure, but I enjoy the list, so that is reason enough for me as to why it should exist. Carptrash 00:46, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: An ironic discussion.  Many categories, such as Jewish American musicians and Jewish American scientists, have recently been deleted because someone thought lists were better.  I prefer categories, though I take the point that they cannot include people with no articles (so why not create a stub?)  On Carptrash's point, if an anti-Semite is one who hates Jews, why shouldn't a Jew be one?  He/she may well hate other Jews for being Jewish and repudiate his/her Jewish identity.RachelBrown 20:52, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this not what "Categories" are for? 

message: This list definitely serves a purpose, as do the lists of other groups, and should not be deleted, especially without any sort of agreement.  If you want to make a category for Jewish individuals duplicating the info on this page that's another thing, but it's not something that's really been done with other groups, probably to avoid 'pigeonholing'.  But certainly something in the article namespace should not be 'moved' to the category namespace as at :Category:Jewish--Pharos 21:52, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverting 'move' to category 

message: Were her Jewish? and we need their article(all photographer).;
*Lee Miller 1907-1977 - lover of Man Ray
*Dora Maar (Henriette Dorothée Markovitch); 1907-1997 (probably Jewish)
*Lotte Beese (Charlotte Stam-Beese) (Lotte Stam-Beese); 1903-1988 (No pages link to here)
*Aenne Biermann; 1898-1933(No pages link to here) (probably Jewish)
*Ilse Bing; 1899-1998 (No pages link to here)
*Gisèle Freund; 1912-2000 (probably Jewish)
*Lucia Moholy (née Schulz); 1894-1989 (No pages link to here)
*Sonya Noskowiak; 1900-1975
--Sheynhertz-Unbayg 11:57, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: See aso List of photographers. --Sheynhertz-Unbayg 06:03, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish? & Article Needs 

message: I've been removing the handful of individuals listed in this category amid entries like Bukharan Jews, because it seems they have been added haphazardly and are only a tiny fraction of those on List of Jews, and the national lists, which seem like the places for this sort of info.  It seems to me like the categories are not really being fully used, and that the real comprehensive work is being done on the lists.  
*Please comment on Category Talk:Jews.--Pharos 00:26, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Jews]] 

message: Does anyone else find it terribly ironic that this has a "This list is incomplete" tag on it? 
Do you ever expect the "List of Jews" to be COMPLETE??
--The Milkman 01:50, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
:Of course not. But I have a different problem: is anyone actually verifying all those claims? It's easy for David ben-Gurion, but some people may not actually be Jewish at all according to any definition. Hell, what purpose does such a list serve anyway? JFW | T@lk 02:13, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  This list is incomplete ... for now 

message: Does he need to be listed in 2 categories? I've removed him once from comedians but he has resurfaced there. If only one category, which one should he be in?
:List him in the category he is primarily known for, and just keep deleting him from the other.  People don't read through the whole list, so they might not see him further on. Jayjg (talk) 20:12, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sacha Baron Cohen 

message: (a) What happened to poor old Wittgenstein? I thought he had got exiled from the main page to here. 
(b) This page lists too many actors who will in all likelihood be forgotten, and too few scientists (but then, I'm biased)
(c) I feel iffy about this kind of list, for what it is worth. Hasdrubal 23:34, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Various 

message: :John Ehrlichman Just a particularly villainous Christian Scientist. Not Jewish at all.
:Hans Eichel Not Jewish. Born in 1941 Germany (not in a concentration camp, that is)
:Fritz Von Erich (japanese article says Jewish parents) Japanese article is lying. Some kind of Christian (Methodist) gentile by background, and member of some sort of born-again Christianity later in life 
:Moses Jacob Ezekiel yup. Jewish. 
:André Eglevsky* I really don't think so. Bio details pretty inconsistant with being Jewish, seems like ethnic Russian
:Sheila Egoff I would say "no", but I'm not crossing her out yet.
:Christian Gottfried Ehrenberg "Christian" Gottfried? Aside from the name, I'm certain he wasn't Jewish.
::Christian David Ginsburg was Jewish by birth. - Newport 20:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, but aside from the name, the bio details pretty clearly signify a non-Jewish background. Vulturell 21:12, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: E

message: Lawrence Grossberg 
Rick Altman
Steve Kmetko
Rosie Schuster 
Peter Kosminsky 
* Wikipedia:Requested articles/Culture and fine arts#Photographers
:: --by Sheynhertz-Unbayg 09:47, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia:Requested articles/Culture and fine arts 

message: :Please in the List!
* Maria Grinberg/Mariya Grinberg, Odessa born pianistin
* Isaak Benrubi
* Robert Saitschick
* Fridrikh Ermler/Friedrich Ermler
* Leonid Kreutzer
* Salo Wittmayer Baron(ja)
* Sophie Irene Loeb-Simon(Sophie Irene Simon Loeb, Sophie Irene Simon-Loeb) (1876-1929)
* Joseph Goldstein
* Leone Ginzburg
* Arthur Rosenberg(:ja:アルトゥル・ローゼンベルク)
* Joseph Rosenstock
* Nachum Zemach, Naum Cemach (1887, Volkovysk, Grodno district - 1939, New York, Performing Artist)
* Michael Gold
* Isador Rosenfeld, Isadore Rosenfeld
* Robyn Rosenfeld
* Josh Greenfeld
:Ossip Gabrilowitsch Jewish
:Martin Ehrlichman
:Joel Shapiro
:Hippolyte Bernheim (1837-1919)
:see also Bernheims
see also: Wikipedia:German-English translation requests/biographies, Wikipedia:Requested articles/Culture and fine arts#Judaism
: --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 18:51, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  article needs 

message: I fail to see how Dr. Zoidberg counts as being Jewish. In fact, he was kicked out of a robot Bar Mitzvah due to his species not being kosher. 
:jews aren't kosher. try to buy one at a kosher butcher store.Gzuckier 18:01, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: he's a doctor with an uncle in showbiz. what more proof do you need.Gzuckier 18:01, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zoidberg? 

message: the subheadings of musicians have become completely farblunget. Gzuckier 14:53, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope this is better now.Gzuckier 18:02, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  musicians 

message: ...there is something intrinsically wrong re the criteria applied. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_talk:Lists_of_Jews#Very.2C_very_shaky_criteria I know this is, essentially, just 4 fun & not a big deal- but, still: why indulge in a rather weird game of pop-genealogy detection inflated beyond, beyond... ?  Mir Harven 13:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So I suppose my proposed list of people in the Bush administration who are not Jews but whom the antisemites attack as Jews anyway is not a good idea. (Just kidding)Gzuckier 13:51, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  As I said elsewhere... 

message: In the "victims" section, in the brief blurb about the Holocaust, someone keeps changing the number of victims from 6 million to 5.1 million.  I challenge that person to show me where they get this from (and neo-Nazi revisionist sites don't count, though those probably say there were "no victims" or some other garbage like that).
6 million is an established figure that is commonly found in almost any legitimate piece about the Holocaust and it's a nice round number that gives a simple scope to the magnamity of the horror.  It is true that the exact number may never be known, but any source I've ever seen that tries to give one still has it close (i.e. 5.9 million, 5.8 million, etc.) and as such it's easier to say 6 million.  5.1 million is almost 20% less and as such I again challenge the person who keeps changing it   Hairymon <
:Weird reasoning. 100-500 k plus/minus doesnt matter, eh ? Here are reliable figures (I've put a link on the Holocaust page):http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Hitler. Mir Harven 13:18, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  6 million vs. 5.1 million Holocaust victims 

message: This list is useless nonsense as the majority of people listed are simply not Jewish by any reasonable definition.
In a list of famous Christians I would expect to see people who identify themselves as Christian and believe in Christianity, not everyone who is somehow vaguely related to some one who is Christian. I would not expect to find famous atheists or converts to Buddhism in the list. Similarly a list of famous Muslims would presumably not include atheists, converts to Christianity or people who practise Hinduism but whose second cousin's uncle's wife's brother is Muslim.
Considering Jews as a nation rather than a religion, I would expect to see a list of famous Zulus say, containing people who identify themselves as Zulu and are recognized as Zulu not everyone who's third cousin by marriage twice removed might have seen a Zulu. Why should a list of Jews be different? Cut the list down to people who identify themselves as Jewish and are widely regarded as Jewish, not everyone that in some way can be connected to someone who might be Jewish. :P Kuratowski's Ghost 16:17, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm increasingly thinking the whole list is idiotic, as are many others, but the points you raise are certainly at the top of the concerns. Jayjg (talk) 16:21, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

text: If the lists of Armenians, Irish and Puerto Ricans etc also include people who are only 1/4 that ethnicity then those lists are just as stupid as this one. Kuratowski's Ghost 22:27, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Moreover, listing people as Jewish when they do not consider themselves to be Jewish is not informing people, its disinformation i.e. lying. Kuratowski's Ghost 22:35, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Neve Campbell is certainly not Jewish. If Sarah Michelle Geller doesn't consider herself to be Jewish then she should not be listed either. If she has a "spiritual reawakening" then she can be put on the list :P Hmmm is Jesus and the apostles on the list? By your logic they should be :P Kuratowski's Ghost 10:16, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Ethnicity is a vague concept. Jewish "ethnicity" is defined largely by association unlike for example Arab ethnicity which is defined mainly by language or Zulu ethnicity which is defined largely by ancestry. Someone who has no Jewish ancestry can decide to convert to Judaism and they become Jewish. Someone whose parents are both Jewish might decide to become a Protestant and identify themself as "Anglo" American and explicitly reject being called Jewish, such a person cannot be considered Jewish despite their ancestry. You don't seem to understand this. Kuratowski's Ghost 00:07, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

text: "Ethnicity" means different things in different contexts. Jewish identity is more complicated than you seem to realize, its not based on religious belief nor on ancestry but on choice of association.  Kuratowski's Ghost 18:54, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Useless nonsense

message: Reading the comments...hm...I'd say the list should contain people converted to Judaism and those of Jewish extraction (mother, father, grandpa, whoever) known to possess or profess some kind of Jewish identity, and are as such recognized by others (rational people, not maniacs). Others may be put under a more flexible category, say: People of (partial ) Jewish ancestry. This would make a list more rational & tenable. Mir Harven 08:40, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A proposal 

message: I am curious regarding two of your many edits that you did to this list:
1) Why did you remove Miriam Hyman?  I know that little if anything in the press has mentioned her as Jewish, but most articles say there were at least a couple of Jewish victims of the July 7 London bombings and I would be extremely surprised with a name like that that she is not at least 1/4 Jewish by ethnicity, if not 1/2.  I would think that Susan Levy's name would be more likely to be removed from the list; like maybe Levy is her husband's name and she's not Jewish at all or something.   I would rather hear from you on this before I put her back in since I certainly do not know it all and don't like when edits get put in back and forth. I'm also guessing that you are from the UK and would know more than I since you spelled "rumor" in regard to you Rupert Murdoch edit "rumour" (wild guess since it could obviously also mean you're from Canada or Australia, which would possibly qualify you more than I for #2 below).
:or New Zealand or South Africa, Zimbabwe, Botswana, Namibia, Malawi, Zambia etc, its only people from the States who can't spell ;) Kuratowski's Ghost 22:09, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some questions about 24.141.149.226's Edits 

message: I started making a few new categories: :Category:Jews in music, :Category:Jews in science, and :Category:Jews in the visual arts, however User:Lulu_of_the_Lotus-Eaters has nominated all these for renaming due to his aversion to the phrase "Jews in". The reason I created the Jews in music category was because I knew :Category:Jewish musicians and :Category:Jewish music existed but mainly covered yiddish/religious music. I have persuaded Lulu to change the name of the current category to Jewish classical musicians (as this basically covers the people I had added to it) but I still feel a category such as :Category:Jews in western music needs to be the parent category of all classical, pop, jazz, rock, musical sub categories to avoid confusion with yiddish music, Klezmer etc. I would appreciate everyones views on this. Arnie587 23:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. Category "Jewish musicians" should stand for musicians  who are ethnically Jewish and not for musicians playing Jewish Music. This is a serious mistake in categorizing. Musicians playing Jewish Music do not need to be Jewish at all. gidonb 09:10, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Jewish categories

message: Anyone want to help defend this? A lot of the voters are assuming bad faith. Kappa 13:13, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: also     
** Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2005 November_19#List of_Jewish chess players
** Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2005 November 19#List of Jews in sports
** Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2005 November 20#List of Jewish Recipients of National Medal of Science. Arniep 20:01, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[List of Jewish bankers]] on Afd 

message: please vote here Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Sub-Categories_of_Jewish_people Arniep 13:26, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Campaign to delete all Jewish categories