Talk:Algolagnia

message: http://www.psych-resources.com/psychsex3/psychsex3160.html
I read all of it, unfortunately I'm too much of a dunce to figure out how to summarize that into a worthwhile article. I'll link to the page in the article, but hopefully someone else will be smart enough to properly regurgitate this eventually. Insomniac By Choice 06:53, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A good source of information 

message: The following sentence has been modified since 2006 when it generated the last 2 complaints, above (and robotman1974 put a template requesting verifiable sources for the whole article, as the article was very short at the time & included the following dubious claim), but even now in 2009 it is still an unsourced & dubious claim:
:"It is distinct from BDSM in that it is a physical reaction based on motor functions, and not a believed psychological reaction such as masochism"
1. First, please note that "masochism" as applied in reference to BDSM is typically not considered a paraphilia (Letter to the Editor of The American Journal of Psychiatry: Change in Criterion for Paraphilias in DSM-IV-TR. Russell B. Hilliard, Robert L. Spitzer. 2002. Retrieved: 23 November, 2007.), only when it's done without consent, as the Marquis de Sade is supposed to have preferred, or if it becomes the only way one can reach sexual gratification, per the DSM IV-TR, printed in 2000. So I'm not sure why Elaragirl would try (below) to separate BDSM from algolagnia by calling BDSM a paraphilia, either, unless she's conflagrating the concept of "masochism" as it's defined as a disorder (e.g. in the DSM IV), versus "masochism" as it's defined more casually, often by laymen, to describe the average consensual BDSM participant who also enjoys "vanilla" sex (i.e. those who perform DSM but are not considered to have a disorder).
2. Algolagnia is EQUATED to sadism and masochism, per this expert's citation of THREE colleagues, including those whom he says created the term algolagnia (That's his 2nd citation in the following paragraph), as printed in a peer-reviewed journal, and which met with approval from peers during the peer-review process:
"Masochism became defined as sexual algophilia, or the "fondness or love of pain" during sex (Fere, 1899). To incorporate sadism in this construct, Schrenck-Notzing developed the term "algolagnia," determining the attraction to sadomasochism was lust rather than love (Schrenck-Notzing, 1893). ... It was not long before the meaning of algolagnia was expanded to include not just acts, but also the fantasies of sadomasochism that are necessary and sufficient to achieve sexual gratification (Eulenberug, 1911)."  Notice that in the first and last citations, algolagnia (or the earlier term, -philia) are merely defined as a specifically "sexual" forms of sadomasochism. (In contrast, S&M may be non-sexual, per expert sources like DSM IV-TR, and Alaragirl (below) and I both agree. N.B.: Kinsey especially started to define S&M as the more "mainstream" definition describing non-dysfunctional people that we see today.)
3. Also showing that it is not "far from being distinct" from BDSM, and the S&M component of BDSM, is that doing algolagnia to someone other than yourself is defined as "active algolagnia"...and "sadism" simultaneously. Algolagnia is defined in the same medical dictionary as "a form of sexual perversion characterized by sadism or masochism."
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Also the 3 words above -- "believed psychological reaction" which are currently in RED text -- should perhaps be explained using terminology that benefits the average reader... Two alternatives, although it's certainly possible that I'm overlooking a 3rd, possible alternative:
1. Just one part of showing it's not in violation of WP:OR standards, and of benefit to the average reader, is to perhaps link the text that is currently RED, above, to another WP article because that would at least show that it's common and accepted medical terminology (and lead readers to a WP article explaining what those 3 words are supposed to mean, in plain English).
2. Or perhaps someone meant "It is believed to be a psychological reaction" in which case, a physical vs psychological reaction should be explained (including a link to "who" is the expert saying that), and explain why BDSM is 100% physical and 0% psychological (or change the article to reflect that BDSM is only partially psychological), and why Algolagnia is the opposite -- with a link to an expert source who meets WP standards, who confirms all of those uncited claims.
Please cite it next time you modify this sentence in the article -- or else it shows someone's continued desire to insert content that does not meet WP standards, and "they have been warned" so the sentence should be immediately deleted (not even a  request) by the next editor who finds this sentence, or a derivation of it, unless it is supported by sources that meet WP standards. THREE YEARS is long enough that the original editor(s) should have had a source for this claim -- and since it contradicts other, SOURCED claims, I'm removing this 3 year-old unsourced claim.216.188.254.2 (talk) 21:30, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Again, Comparison to Masochism 

message: Why does this article state that algolagnia is a "disorder"? Being a submissive male myself, I can't see in what way my sexuality is defunct :/. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.172.143.21 (talk) 16:05, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Being a submissive doesn't necessarily make someone an algolagnic. Algolagnics might despise the thought of submitting to anyone; it's purely about being wired to feel pleasure from pain. Alatari 19:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

text: It is the way the DSM words it.  The use of the word 'disorder' here seems to violate the WP:NPOV when obviously many algolagnics have been happy with their wiring.  So I would suggest citing some verifiable sources or studies describing this condition as genetically advantageous or others showing psychologically well adapted individuals with algolagnic wiring.  You're getting into the controversy of Western medicine describing anything outside the norm as a disorder even though there maybe advantages to the condition under certain environmental pressures like war time or famine.  Being wired this way and knowing you're somehow different than other people does cause some psychological stress.  Having algolagnia might make an individual a perfect spy for the sheer immunity to torture or excellent candidates for religious orders.  But this will need verification from studies or expert opinions and you may have to wait for the research.   Alatari 19:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I wonder if a regular person can have their brain trained into algolagnia in pre-puberty by having enough pain associations with self stimulation or is it necessarily wired from birth? Alatari 19:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There's a lot of half-assed speculation on it on some message boards...but nothing serious has been done. As soon as the whole S/M thing came along, nerve-style research on this sort of thing went completely out of style. --AmusedRepose (talk) 22:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Disorder"? 

message: Why the picture of the nipple clamps?  Wouldn't a picture of an MRI of an algolagnia brain firing differently form a non algolagnia brain make more sense?  Or scars on the body of a Dermatillomaniac or other Self-injury style make more sense? Alatari 20:41, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: MythBusters (season 6)#Beating the Lie Detector used a fMRI to attempt to detect lies.  I'm not sure if anyone is using an fMRI to study algolagniacs.  Alatari (talk) 15:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nipple clamps? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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