Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Archive 11

message: This text has been deleted by pro-LaRouche editors:
:"Chip Berlet and Joel Bellman claim that the shift in the NCLC's politics and the change in its internal regime was prompted by a personal crisis in LaRouche's life which led to his having an emotional crisis: + - + - :What happened to cause this dramatic shift? Some say it was a dramatic incident in LaRouche's personal life. In 1972 LaRouche's common-law wife, Carol Schnitzer, left him for a young member of the London NCLC chapter named Christopher White, whom she eventually married. For LaRouche, it was a crushing blow. His first wife Janice had similarly walked out on him a decade earlier, taking with her the couple's young son. This personal event apparently triggered LaRouche's political metamorphosis. LaRouche went into seclusion in Europe, and defectors tell of his suffering a possible nervous breakdown. In the spring of 1973, he returned. His previous conspiratorial inclinations had now grown into a bizarre tapestry weaving together classical conspiracy theories of the 19th century and post-Marxian economics. He began articulating a `psycho-sexual' theory of political organizing. Sexism and homophobia became central themes of the organization's theories."
This text appears in a published report.  It represents material similar to that by several other writers of published material critical of LaRouche. It is not a minority view, it is the majority view.  It should not be deleted.  We can discuss modifying it here in the discussion page, but unilateral deletions by pro-LaRouche editors is not acceptable behavior in a collective editing process.
Once again I ask that we all stop editing this page and focus on the Political views of Lyndon LaRouche page which is currently locked. Otherwise this page should be locked. --Cberlet 18:50, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You say that this theory is the "majority view." Then, produce a quote from someone else. This article is becoming a compendium of quotes from Chip Berlet. Weed Harper 21:33, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Berlet/Bellman report is published

message: I will accept quotes from Berlet that have appeared in a "mainstream" publication. On the other hand, if Wikipedia readers want to read Berlet's website, there are abundant links to it in all the LaRouche articles. There is no need to reproduce Berlet's website here. --HK 16:25, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Many of the article on the official PRA website (not my personal website) are available as printed reports published by PRA.--Cberlet 17:08, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Sure there is plenty of ambiguity. What is a 'mainstream' publication in your mind? Are any LaRouche publications mainstream? What about "Time" magazine, which LaRouche might say was created by an "avid" LSD user and fascist? What about the "Washington Times" run by Moonies, or the Washington Post, once run by the Graham who masterminded LaRouche's arrest? The "New York Times"? Or are they controlled by the ADL? Frankly, it's hard to guess what you might consider to be a "mainstream" publication. (PS, it's not a matter of you "accepting" anything unilaterally - we're all in this together.) -Willmcw 05:02, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Berlet quoting Berlet

message: I have rewritten this page to make it clearer what is material that originates from LaRouche publications and supporters.  In a realistic article, claims from the LaRouche group need to be respected and included, but the entire article should reflect that their view of themselves and reality is a tiny minority view. --Cberlet 04:10, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewriting to check balance and NPOV

message: The issue of "cooked quotes" is essential to the question of whether Berlet's web site should be considered a reputable source. I have assembled the evidence on a special page: Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Evidence of "cooked quotes". I have edited for clarity some material contributed by Herschel. Weed Harper 07:20, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There are no cooked quotes. This has been discussed repeatedly. The pro-LaRouche views are a tiny minority. Stop deleting legitimate, sourced, reputable, majority-view material in favor of the biased pro-LaRouche viewpoint.--Cberlet 15:04, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Evidence of "Cooked Quotes"

message: HK and Weed: I have asked repeatedly that we stop editing this page and focus on the Political views of Lyndon LaRouche page. You have refused. As long as you edit this page, I will edit this page.  As a compromise, you can remove 50% of my edits you previously deleted.--Cberlet 16:42, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: WH, I reverted your deletions - you cut out lots of material. If you really want to edit this page, let's concetrate on it and discuss the edits. If there is a problem with specific sections, please tell us what they are and we can go over them one at a time. -Willmcw 21:30, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Let's stop editing this page and concentrate on the Views page

message: Chip Berlet AKA User:Cberlet has been systematically loading both Lyndon LaRouche and Political views of Lyndon LaRouche with quotes from articles that he has written. Between quotes from Chip and quotes from his siamese twin Dennis King, the articles resemble more and more an essay promoting their shared, idiosyncratic theories. The Slim 'n' Chip team has often attempted to justify CBerlet's edits by claiming that Berlet's material has appeared in "mainstream" publications. 
Fine, then. As I indicate to Will above, I will not remove any quotes from Chip that have appeared in "mainstream", read "mass circulation" publications. That would include the publications Will asked about as examples: Time, the Washington Times, Washington Post, or New York Times. It would not include some publications that have served as a venue for the King/Berlet theories, such as High Times. It emphatically would not include leftist conspiracy-theory blog sites that are cloned from PRA.
In this way, the mass-circulation press can serve as sort of a "filter" to determine which of the King/Berlet theories are "mainstream", and which are esoteric, arcane, idiosyncratic, and generally unacceptable in Wikipedia under the Wikipedia:No original research guidelines. --HK 16:42, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not what the NPOV page describes as the standard criteria.--Cberlet 18:06, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: A proposal concerning the issue of Chip Berlet and [[Wikipedia:No original research|original research]]

message: I will accept the "internal memo", but with some stipulations. It should be noted that the document is unpublished, and that therefore the person representing it as authentic, whether King, Berlet, or Mintz, should be named. Secondly, since Chip says he has a copy, there should be no problem providing a context. I am not asking for a photostat, simply several sentences before and after the cited sentence, so that we can establish that the quote is not "cooked." Thirdly, what has this got to do with "classical culture"? It should be in the "political views" article, where, if you want to put forward the theory of "critics" that LaRouche is some sort of racist, I would be most happy to rebut. --HK 15:40, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The memo was published in the Washington Post   -Willmcw 20:11, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Re: Internal Memo is Verifiable

message: The page states, "LaRouche entered the primary elections for the Democratic Party's nomination in 2004, even though as a convicted felon he is not permitted to vote."
Most states--though not all--strip felons of the right to vote while incarcerated; some states continue to deny the right to vote to ex-felons, but not all. Is it known for certain that LaRouche falls in that category?  -Stismail 13:10, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In Virginia, where LaRouche resides, felons can get their vote restored with the approval of the governor. There is no indication that LaRouche has applied for or received re-enfranchisement.   -Willmcw 18:22, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Right to Vote

message: Some of us crusty old editors on this article have been playing at a new draft of this article in a sandbox: Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/sandbox.  As one of the sandbuilders, I've been trying to cut out a lot of material that is in the present edition, and move some to other articles (and move some in from others too). The general aim is to make this into a succinct, yet comprehensive, chronological biography. You are all welcome to make comments in the sandbox too. By all means keep editing here (or there) and we'll sort it all out later. Cheers, -Willmcw 08:04, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's funny, you know: a lot of people don't like the LaRouche editor(s), and my own politics could hardly be more different, but we now have a great and growing collection of LaRouche-related articles. POV disputes get a bad rap: sometimes, after much anxiety, the end result is vastly improved content. Everyking 10:08, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You are quite right. Every writer benefits from having an editor, even if that editor doesn't agree with the material. A good tendency in Wiki "edit wars" is the piling on facts, one to offset another. That kind of informational one-upsmanship is good for the encyclopedia. (And sometimes the opposite is needed, shoveling efforts to excavate the essential details from piles of overlying manure, as in the case of the Stygian Stables.) I think that, even now, the LaRouche articles are among the best sources on the web on the topic and I know they'll get better. Cheers, -Willmcw 11:42, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Welcome new editors 

message: I am going to replace the existing version of this article with the copy that some editors have been working on at Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/sandbox. That version is more chronological and somewhat shorter than the present copy. Cheers, -Willmcw 01:27, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sandbox version