Talk:Pope Pius XII/Archive 6

message: I am supposedly a poor representative  of NPOV on the  talk pages but I do not accept that I have  ever removed the bias on articles but rather attempted to add this very balance  you conceive . However attackable I have become , this does not diminuish the historical questioning concerning Pacelli's involvement with the nascent  Third Reich.       I say that your  clarifications regarding this facile 'jewish' apologia  is vital to restore some sanity to Wikipedia , and that therefore you should definitely be praised for your ability to weed through the same.    I for one have never been concerned with Pius Holocaust history , whatever it is or isn't . I am concerned at the skewed representation about the earlier era 1925-1933 ( which in my mind expands today to at least Papen's Nuremburg Trial reference to a 1936 "high authority" backing  further synthesis with Nazism .       Further I would say that it is your duty  to continue  your attempts at balancing  any such articles which  skew, or lack, or de-couple what history we do know . It sounds as though you suspect Hitler's Pope to be a conspiracy theory , so I attest that the phrase  Avro Manhattan used by 1949 was  Nazi Pope . I consider the Papen reference to 1936 at Reichskonkordat talk to in fact merit our fuller consideration of exactly this concept as anything but a conspiracy theory . I am open minded as to how, where and who  could fulfill the necessary facts. I mean that angry attempts to emasculate the question left by history because  a small section here or there seems more relevant  to a separate article , and thus off-topic may necessitate  a serious  concerted move  to open a catch all  article . McClenon tried to do this and was jumped on for his trouble(not by me)- as really I just thought it too abstrusely  named . 
You are right that this is a touchy subject, and I claim it is an artificially dual subject . The reality of the Holocaust  was engendered by several hundred years of German philosophy as I began to incorporate from  R.DO'Butler's The Roots of National Socialism, 1941 (the Herder article ) . Just as vatican apologia concentrates on  the wartime era and  supposed goodnes you have qualified , and evades  earlier Pacelli questions/ accusations thus, so I believe that there is too much focus on Hitler as a sole aberrant monster of anti-semitism . As Butler proves conclusively the evolution of this and the totality of the Nazism , from an evolution of thought . It is a design to diminuish and deflect , and today we will not be serving ourselves well if we allow such  to carry sway . 
I have been waiting a long time to see someone  rationally question the  state of this history here (all the articles) and this your contribution  appears to un-veil a new  possible rationality . I beg you to involve yourself as much as you will , in the hope that this rationality will not shy from the harder questions and necessities . But  apart from that  which you have positioned here, I am not hopeful and am used to a wilderness and constant attack  (maybe even from you?) . Excuse the length- a particular cause for attack .PS , I have to tell you that this is an information war . Do not expect other than wounds from those with interests-now. Do you seriously imagine it isn't and that there are no interests , but just a bloggy little community at stake here ? EffK 22:28, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Answer Goodoldpolonius/Historical representation on Wikipedia/Pius XII

message: Goodoldpolonius may like to read the present pope's article  as it is at this time  and witness the  elision  between the "Crime" of revealing child sex abuse ( which is automatic excommunication (!) ) into the penalties for the commission of such crime .The presentation  attempts to eliminate   the   former extra-ordinary  "crime"  by uninterruptedly continuing into the beneficial penalties upon  the actual offences /crimes .  I point this out in a state of shock that users there have allowed this  , in reference to what Str1977 stipulates   as  the "havoc" which I create, as well as to illustrate my judgement that this is indeed an information war . I find that those who blame the messenger , reveal their positions , and I dispute that such  presentation of information derives from innocent error on Wikipedia . There is indeed a creation of havoc , which stems from the very same interesting posture of Pius XII towards  bolstering the Church as institution of faith  over it  centreing on the reality of  the flock as church . This  is what leads to all the denial, and denial is one  outstanding result of Pacelli's life work . I repeat the last p[ost I made , which is that it is this vatican  direction towards the saving of the Institution  which in great part explains the  Pius  XII embodiment  , the which should  be fully treated , unlike the  pauce reference at the articles opening  . Certainly there can be no understanding of Pius without treatment of this which stands to the theological side of his life, to this  which is characterised as his piety .  I did begin it  once, writing as if I shared such understanding with his devoted followers( it is interesting this piety aspect, and strong, and I will admit that an expalnation of it would  be hard to put without sounding rather influenced by such  distant concepts) .EffK 09:31, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Catholic Information

message: I removed the following section, since I couldn't see a reason to have it included in section Pius XII#World War II:
:On September 6, 1938, in a statement published worldwide (except for censorship in fascist countries like Germany and Italy, Pius XI said:
::Mark well that in the Catholic Mass, Abraham is our Patriarch and forefather. Anti-Semitism is incompatible with the lofty thought which that fact expresses. It is a movement with which we Christians can have nothing to do. No, no, I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible. Through Christ and in Christ we are the spiritual progeny of Abraham. Spiritually, we are all Semites.
Gugganij 08:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have cut that part in the reorg I just did, but I misread it as Pius XII and did not look at the dates.  Thanks for catching it.  I hope my other changes were acceptable. --Goodoldpolonius2 13:57, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed statement by Pius XI

message: So, considering the concert of revert and support...what is this but a Catholic cabal subverting a free encyclopedia ? EffK 19:00, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Utopia has strange colours. And there's a user specialist in them too. I recognise white colour so far. EffK 19:43, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Huhh?  Robert McClenon 19:51, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia

message: This claim is bogus.  The order was not verified as authentic.  Even if authentic, it is not issued by the Vatican by anonymously by the nunciature.  Debunked here , and discussed here as a media bias item  and no Jewish children have been identified as unreturned as an effect of this so-called order. This comment refers to an edit of 14 November  which has already been removed from the article patsw 03:11, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: OOH! Do I see the word " Bias " ? EffK 09:40, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Yep, it should be (and stay) removed. Thanks for the facts. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:49, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The claim that Pope Pius ordered that Jewish children not be returned to their families