Talk:Nicolaus Copernicus/Nationality/Archive 4

message: It's rather awkward that Poles seems to be claiming the German astronomer Copernicus as a "Pole". He was born to an ethnic German family in a predominantly German-speaking Hanse city in Prussia, he spoke German as his native language. The fact that the city was under Polish suzerainty is irrelevant. Using such a logic, it did not exist Poles at all between 1793 and 1918, as there was no state called Poland. There were only Prussians/Germans, Austrians and Russians!
If Copernicus had lived in 1945, he had been brutally expulsed/ethnically cleansing or murdered with his entire family by the Poles. Undoubtly, he would then be living in West Germany and be a supporter of the expellee party, and would almost certainly not consider himself "Polish".
:I would say the other way: until XIX century Copernicus was commonly refered as Polish astronomer and nobody had doubted it. Definetely, If you would ask Copernicus who is he, he would answer Prussian, but Prussian for him meant something else than for you: the term in his times included German-speaking burghers from Gdansk and Polish-speaking nobles. Then he would describe himself as both Pole and German, i would say.
:As for you insinuation about expulsion, well, it wasn't mostly done by Poles, and despite what explees try to suggest it was MOSTLY done in much more civilised ways than expellings done earlier in war by Germans.
:Second, nationality in XIX century was something different than in XV century. You are trying to apply your logic to XV century, when people national conscience was much more fluid and when it was based very often not only on language/family ties but often on political loyalty. YSecond, he was born in Prussia - province of POland (though authonomous) which means nothing for discussion. He spoke German, but he may as well speak Polish, he clearly recorder Polish names with proper spelling. The city elites were predominantly German-speaking, as for lower classes we don't know anything about it in XV century (the documents are from later parts) and it is irrevelant, since many German-speaking persons were Polish patriors (should I mention for example Dantyszek?)
:Anyway, see Copernicus' nationality and discuss there and present arguments. Szopen 17:42, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awkward 

message: I am too tired to enforce the naming in article to be consistent with voting results from Gdansk\Vote. It seems, that the consensus is (though I don't like it, and even I strongly dislike it ) to use Thorn (Torun) and then Thorn (the rules for 1466 and after period apply). But them Frauenberg or Frombork? In this case, i doubt that anyway would say that Frauenberg is English name ... mm anyway someone could check it and then probably protect the page. 
As for German-Polish astronomer, maybe we should return to neutral "astronomer" but leave him of course in category Polish astronomers, and maybe add him to German astronomers. 
NOTE that there is already article about dispute over his nationality and there is no need to repeat it here, or on talk pages.
Szopen 17:52, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, So it would be thorn (torun), breslau (wroclaw) - this cases are clear with new policy (though I dislike it). However cases like Olsztyn/Allenstein and Frombork/Frauenberg are clearly different. First, I doubt that Allenstein is nearly as popular as Thorn, or that it made it to English as "official" name, therefore is there need to change the name here?Szopen 15:47, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming issue