Talk:List of converts to Christianity/Archive 1

message: This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Splashtalk 18:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: First articles for deletion debate

message: Less arguable are Gustav Mahler and Arnold Schoenberg. The latter converted back but both were self-conversions. To the extent that conversion is an active verb (not sure of conflicting theologies, after all,) it should be noted that it was Felix's father who converted the family.  I suppose one could take the fact that Felix did not attempt to renounce the imposed conversion as reason enough for inclusion (have wondered what to make of Die erste Walpurgisnacht opus 60 though!) but it's a debatable choice. Schissel | Sound the Note! 02:49, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Felix Mendelssohn]] 

message: There's just a couple articles that sound like this. For example Jakob Jocz says he "was a third generation Hebrew Christian." Is your grandfather converting mean you count as a convert? Also Alexander Men wasn't born Christian, but he was baptized at seven-months old. This isn't much different than if he'd been born Christian. Do you really convert at seven-months? His article puts him in the convert category, but categories aren't as well-maintained as lists.--T. Anthony 03:37, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite right.  I have remedied the problem. 65.28.2.218 01:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish people born Christian 

message: Wow. Given that for presumably a less controversial articles like List of British Jews there is a citation to show that each individual on the list is Jewish, it is remarkable to see no citations at all here for the supposed converts from Judaism, either that the person was ever a Jew in the religious rather than ethnic sense (since if they were raised Christian they are not converts) or became a Christian. 
In particular, is there a citation to say that Osip Mikhailovich Lerner converted to Christianity? A category was just (anonymously) added to that article effectively asserting so, which is what brought me here hoping to find a citation. There is no mention of it in the article on Lerner, and he is known (among other things) as a Yiddish-language writer. - Jmabel | Talk 18:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Jmabel, for each person on any one of these lists, there is something in the article about them (or another article on Wikipedia) that states something about their conversion. I made sure of that when I revamped it.  Hope that answers your question. 65.28.2.218 18:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

text: OK on Lerner. (& I'd written the darn thing a while back. Total spaceout on my part.) But the general principle of needing citation still stands. Policy (WP:V, WP:RS) is pretty clear that Wikipedia articles are not acceptable sources for other Wikipedia articles. - Jmabel | Talk 18:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Then cite away. =) 65.28.2.218 18:41, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just did for the one I was concerned with. But it's really not my article (first time I've looked at it, as far as I remember). It's mostly a heads-up to anyone who cares to preserve the article. Anyone who wanted to would be entitled to remove most of the names as uncited, something that has happened to quite a few lists when someone decides to. In the case of this particular list, it's not my issue either way except insofar as I was trying to look something up. - Jmabel | Talk 18:51, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Almost completely uncited 

message: John Wilmot embraced Christianity on his deathbed, but he never converted, because he was already a baptised, even if nonpractising, Christian. Nor am I aware he ever "became" an atheist as such - he just had a very good time sexually with anyone he fancied and in utter disregard for the morality of the time, and didn't go to church.
Nuttyskin 00:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Deathbed Conversions

message: I don't think Saul 'converted', in fact, he designed his own religion which later became Christianity. --Vladko 01:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: St. Paul's "Conversion"

message: What next? Can I, as a Wiccan, start a page listing all those who have converted to Wicca? The list would be 10's of thousands of lines long, at the VERY least! In addition, I have to say I find the purpose of this  article repugnant. Namely, this is a "my religion is better than yours and to PROVE it I am gonna list all the SMART people who thought so, too!" page.  Bill W. Smith, Jr. 22:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, a "List of converts to Wicca" would be a great article to have; I, for one, would encourage you to start it. I would, however, pose a caveat to your suggestion that it would be "tens of thousands of lines long." Neither List of converts to Judaism, nor List of converts to Christianity, nor List of converts to Islam contains an actual list of every single convert to the respective religion; as you suggest, it would be far, far, too long, and additionally I doubt that such an article would fit Wikipedia's purposes. Instead, all of these articles only include notable people who (for the vast majority) already have articles on Wikipedia. They function as a research tool - something that fits Wikipedia's purposes very well. For example, let's say someone is trying to research people who had converted from Judaism to Christanity, or vice-versa. This page, or its "converts to Judaism" counterpart, would provide a great resource. The prospective researcher easily could find subjects to examine further. I would also dispute the suggestion that the lists are an example of religious boasting; people who some find to be very unsavory are included on this list (as well as the other two lists). For example, I doubt that many fundamentalist Christians would be proud to have porn star Harry Reems on this list, or that orthodox Jews would be proud to have porn star Shy Love on the List of converts to Judaism. I also doubt that Muslims would be proud to have neo-Nazi supporter David Myatt or dictator Idi Amin on the List of converts to Islam. These lists are wholly viewpoint neutral, and they provide a valuable research resource. Lastly, I should note that this article already survived a VfD analysis intact: see the top of this page. 65.28.2.218 23:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. These lists are for notable people, not every Tom Dick and Harry. --Matt57 20:22, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is this worthy of an article? 

message: it seems that saying some one converted to christianity is a great temptation specially to say a muslim converted to christianity, no word can be sure without knowing the name of his mother and her faith as we see she was white and verry white acording to his writings was she a christian??? i dont know. if she divorced his muslem father when this guy was 2 years old! then christianity will have a cristal clear evidence that she can convert 2 year old children raised as christian!! the temtation cames from the name hussein as if this person born muslim raised muslim and lived islam then he decided to convert at 40 years old after too much studies! matter of fact he beleves in christianity becouse it is an easy non demanding cult that ask u ,to do non ,and think non,just say jesus christ he forgive u for raping !! why to think in what u dont care what it says! since u have not to folow any scripture offered by christianity not even the event of divorce!!! do we have a list of who converted to each other faith?
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.6.14.147 (talk) 18:24, November 9, 2006.
:Hello. Please learn more about Christianity before ranting nonsensically here. Thanks!--C.Logan 20:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Second articles for deletion debate

message: This football player has publicly confirmed that he converted to Christianity. Stephane Berne in 2004 asked him that he was surprised to see that there were Muslims like Djibril who converted to Christianity. Djibril confirmed this but did not seem to want to go into details. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.0.132.225 (talk) 15:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I searched long and hard all over the internet to find some proof of this claim, but the only indication that he had converted to Christianity seemed to be his Wikipedia article, which now no longer makes that claim either. If you can provide some source, then he ought to be included. Otherwise, without proof he shouldn't be on this list. 65.28.2.218 20:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Djibril Cissé]] 

message: From reading the article about Ibrahim Rugova, it said that there was rumors that he converted to Catholicism in his later life, so I added that his conversion is disputed since no one can be sure whether he actually converted to Catholicism, unless you can provide a reliable source that backs up that claim. 71.62.121.16 01:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ibrahim Rugova

message: Sorting by religion I feel is not a very logical order. I propose that the whole article be re-ordered by profession/notability criteria.
The reason the person is listed here is that they are notable in a field of endevour and they have converted to Christianity. They still retain their expertese in their field of notability but they now deem their old religion irrelevant or of little importance to them (for whatever reason) and yet we prefer to list them under that. It adds undue "negative" weight to the old religion. Another approach is to imply or claim a form of superiority of this religion over the other religion (i.e. the new religion "won" a convert and the old one "lost" a convert). Many of the people here had little choice in their former religion as the initial religion you have is culturally predicated.
As a simpler analogy if we had an article that was a List of converts to vegetarianism that listed notable people who are now vegan or vegetarian then almost certainly they would have come from an "omnivour" diet. All vegans or vegetarians I have met are very sincere in their new diet and it would be silly to list then under their former diet. 
I propose that the whole article be re-ordered in line with how the List_of_Muslim_converts is ordered i.e. by profession/notability criteria. The former faith can be mentioned in the text entry for each person, if it is relevant. I will propose this for other similar articles e.g. List_of_converts_to_Judaism. Ttiotsw 19:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section headings poorly weight why they are notable and add undue weight to former religion. 

message: Nowhere does it say if they converted to Catholicism or just to one of the heretical 'faiths' called christianity. It's all a load of bollocks anyway, your dead family members and friends are dead, just lumps of meat now, get over it.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.70.244.164 (talk) 07:02, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Christian or Protestant