Talk:Battle of St Quentin Canal

message: 29th Sept., 19181 HINDENBURG LINE %5
The right flank companies of the 44th (under Capt. Lewis and Lieut. HunP), still heading south of their proper course,had found the Hindenburg Outpost-Line south of Malakoff Wood empty. Evidently the American attack had gone through
in this sector. Despite shelling and machine-gun fire from the northeast, Hunt and Lewis and their companies pushed on qrn
vards to the Hindenburg Line and thence 400 yards to its rear irench and another 400 to the Tunnel mound. The mist had then cleared, some force of Americans was evidently still ahead, but field-guns near Cabaret Wood Farm on a hill straight in front shelled the companies point blank as they approached, causing heavy loss. Along the mound 50 Americans were sheltering. Recognising by a line of telegraph posts that they themselves were too far south, Hunt and Lewis turned north along the Bellicourt-le Catelet road, but machine-gun and trench-mortar fire on it forced them to shelter in a communication trench (which may here be called “Tunnel Sap”) running from the Hindenburg Line to beyond the Tunnel mound. The companies and the Americans manned this facing north. Hunt was wounded in the shelling. When the fire from Quenneniont Farm ceased, the northern companies of the Hth, also, came on to the Hindenburg Line, part of them being fed by Capt. Longmore through a more northerly communication trench, Top Lane, to avoid the shelling from Cabaret Wood Farm. Behind and between these two companies and still in the fog, Col. Scanlan was leading the 59th through the wire of the Hindenburg Line when startled by a shout from his adjutant. Thirty yards ahead a German had risen and was aiming his rifle at them. They mMaj. W. J Hunt, M B E ; 44th Bn. Farmer; of Cottesloe. W A.; h Streatham. Eng.. 8 June 1891. 
966 THE A.I.F. IN FRANCE [zgth Sept., 1918 dropped in the wire. Some Lewis-gunners kept down the Germans and Capt. Roberts’6o company presently captured the post.61 Scanlan sent Capt. Dickson’so2 and Lieut. Parr’se3 companies to occupy the second trench of the Hindenburg Line. Dickson’s, moving through a sap, cleared a German post in the support line, and found there the northern companies of the 44th. Through the clearing mist, the le Catelet line, half a mile beyond the Tunnel mound, became visible. It was held by Germans, apparently 1 0 0 strong. Clearly the Americans had got no farther there. While the 4 t h and 59th were pushing through the Hindenburg lines machine-gun fire from their left had been continuous. Now at the Tunnel mound it came also from the left rear; and, as the mist cleared, anti-tank guns and batteries in the valleys behind the Hindenburg Line fired over open sights. Machine-gun bullets from the north also were striking the bottom and rear wall of the Hindenburg trench, hitting men who sat low in it. From Tunnel Sap indeed Sergeant Ingvarson of the 4 t h saw a machine-gun firing from the Hindenburg Line behind him against Australians and Americans approaching from the west. Calling for a Lewis gun to follow, he scrambled out with his men after him, and running 100 yards across the open in rear of the Germans, shot and bombed them and captured 150 yards of that trench and eight machine-guns. Col. Scanlan now realisede4 what he had suspected before, that the attack north of him must have failed. With the mist gone, the 4$h, 59th, and Americans, looking northwards down Vauban Valley, saw half a mile away string after string of men crossing westwards to Bony ridge. At first it had been thought they might be American wounded returning from the first objective, but they were soon recognised as Germans carrying bombs and ammunition, and intense fire from the Australians and Americans stopped the traffic. Presently a trench-
MCapt. C. H. Roberts, 60th and 59th Bns. Electrician: of Hawthorn, Vic.; “It was at one of several German lamp-signal stations, each on high ground. OaMaj. R. J. Dickson, 59th Bn. Business manager; of Warrnambool, Vic , ns Capt. S. W. Neale (E. Kew, Vic ) had been mortally wounded by a shell. “As did Col. Clark (44th) who presently joined him. b. Richmond, Vic., IO Dec. 1892. Killed in action, ag Sep. 1916. b Warrnambool, 18 July 1869.
2gth Sept., 19x81 HINDENBURG LINE %7 mortar opened from the north, and Germans in both trenches of the Hindenburg Line attacked with bombs, rushing the barricade in the second trench and gaining fifty yards before
Parr's company beat them back. Capt. Roberts of the support company was killed. Help was sent back to the first trench,
where Lieut. Chambers had only a platoon. Using German bombs, the Australians retook the lost ground and rebuilt the barricade farther north. Eventually Scanlan, Longmore, Capt. Loughnan (58th) and others, with companies or platoons of
the 44th, 59th, and 4rst and numbers of the 108th American Infantry, established positions facing both north and east from the Hindenburg Outpost-Line to the Tunnel. Two machine-guns of the 9th Company, being hurried forward to Scanlan by Lieut. Slater,e5 were placed in Top Lane;66 but at the eastern end of this lane the Germans held an anti-tank fort with machine-guns and a fieldgun. It was at this hour, 11 a.m., that the armoured cars for raiding le Cateau and Busigny, and their supporting whippets, came up to the junction of five roads near Quennemont Farm, and passing over the crest sped down Dirk Valley towards the hamlet of Bony on the next ridge, in the Hindenburg Line. The cars shot some Germans who had withdrawn from Quennemont Farm, but ran into intense machine-gun fire, and anti-tank guns in Bony destroyed three as they approached.
mLt. F. G. Slater, hi.C.; 9th b1.G. Coy. Warehouse salesman; of Stanmore, N S W ; b. Dulwich Hill, N.S W., zz June 1893. BBThe 9th M G Coy.. attached to the 11th Bde. had been hringing up its guns on limbers. One limber ran into shelling at hlalakoff Farm where some of the mules uere hlt. Anothtr limber was on the summit near Quennemont Farm when the smoke cleared, and three mules were killed by fire from the farm. Lt W. C. Kerr (Randwick, N S W ) had been wounded trying to release them. Lt. Slater had the
mules of another section unharnessed and two guns packed on them by Sgt. J.
*Using a primary source that won't be easy to verify for the simple fact of who commanded a force is not a good idea. Beyond that, the sentence is wildly out of place. Rewrite the sentence and find a better reference (or an online version of the source) as currently this is like using the diary entry of someone who watched Lincoln give the Gettysburg Address to reference the date he gave it. Staxringold talkcontribs 17:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Extract of Aussie Account of Final Battle by Official War Correspondent CW Bean from online at AWM - notes Longmore in it

message: The earliest attack on the 18th by the Aussies and NZers was a preliminary attack in the outer defensives of the Hindenburg line, outer defensives being different than the actual Hindenburg line, difference when trying to make sense of this subject and trying to figure out who attacked which defenses first.The reference “Australians in the first World war” from the article even calls it a preliminary attack. 
“The British arrived at the line next, the British First Army attacking the Wotan-Stellung section of the wall (After Sept. 18th.) early in the battle followed by Douglas Haig’s forces”
The British First Army was Douglas Haig’s forces, along with the remainder of the British Armies.
In my opinion, not that anyone asked, this whole article should be deleted.
The first attack on the Hindenburg line is either September 2 or September 26, myself, I say the first date.
The Canadians, had already broken through the Wotan Stellung on September 2nd and continued forward to the front of the Canel du Nord. On August 28 and 29 the Canadians broke through the first defensive lines in front of the Wotan position. 
The French armies and British armies all battled on, to different degrees, driving the Germans back up to and near or through the screening positions and into the Hindenburg position. During the first three weeks of September the First, Third and Fourth British armies all advanced forward over a lot of ground arriving at, or, through the outer defenses towards the main Hindenburg line. The Australians were still with the Fourth Army at this time.
The opening attack on the Hindenburg line or what has been called The Battle of The Hindenburg Line or what has been called the Grand Assault began on September 26th with following attacks all along the line in 24 hour intervals.
The first assault began with the Americans and Gouraud’s Fourth French Army. 24 hours later, the Canadians with the British First Army, and the Third Army were to break through the Canel du Nord and down into the Siegfried Position from the north. On September 28th, Plumer and his Second Army with the Belgiums and six French Divisions were to break out of the Ypres Salient and move along the Belgium coast. On September 29th Rawlinson’s Fourth Army and Debeney’s French First Army would attack by frontal assault through the Siegfried Position. Birdwood’s Fifth Army and Barthlot’s French Fifth and Mangin’s French Tenth Army were not to attack but to await developments.
The Americans suffered the first and the most due in large part to Pershing’s incompetent decisions and his inexperienced staff, primitive tactics and his refusal to take Foch’s advice. All British and some French Armies assaults were successful.
“On September 27 the US 27th and 30th Divisions launched the initial attack,”
I think this line is incorrect enough to be totally revised especially since it was another division, and others, that saved the Americans and the day and they’re not even included here.
On September 29 five divisions attacked on a nine mile front. The American 30th in the center with the 27th on their left flank and the British 46th North Midland Division on their right flank. Two more British divisions flanked the attack.
The most remarkable success of the day was by the British 46th Division which crossed the obstacle of the St Quentin Canal, broke through the German defensives and captured 4,000 prisoners and 70 guns at a cost of 800 casualties.
Why,in the Grand Assault where some 100 divisions took part the US 27 and 30 are mentioned especially when they were given easier ground to attack over, didn’t follow the battle plans, set back the battle and in the end had others come to their rescue? Why not just say that it was the British 46th that launched the initial attack and made the breakthrough?
Brocky44 13:24, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Battle

message: I agree with Brocky44.
This page (and many WW1 pages on wiki) are being re-written to over-emphasise the Canadian, Australian, and American role in WW1 at the expense of the British and the French. 
To write an article about breaking the Hindenberg Line and not mention 46th (Midland) Div is indicative of bias and inaccuracy of the highest order.
Overall wiki is suffering as a relaible source due to partial and partisan 'contributions' by a few nationalist zealots
Roger
03:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bias

message: I agree with Brock and Roger (sorry if I misspell your name, Brock, I can't remember what it was originally posted as). But I must say the page still reads with a bias. It may require some major reworking, to be honest.
Also, I must question Epehy as the first major battle on the Hindenburgh Line. Havrincourt was six days prior and, according to G. W. L. Nicholson's "Official History of the Canadian Army in the First World War : The Canadian Expeditionary Force, 1914-1919" , in Appendix F on the Battle Honours, the Battles (note the plural) of the Hindenburgh Line are from the period 12 September to 9 October 1918, beginning with the Battle of Havrincourt, and ending with the capture of Cambrai 9 October.
While I quote only one source, there are two or three others worthy of note who say the same; I just don't have them close at hand at this time. If I remember to do so, I will edit this post to include them.Wikig39 (talk) 19:50, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Battle questions/points 

message: I've edited the page again!!  I really don't know who keeps editing this page to highlight the Australian and US role at the expense of the British role but they are playing with history and dishonouring the memory of a fine allied effort.
It would be much better if someone could write a definitive, balanced, history of the battle and then seal this article.
Yrs hopefully
Roger 80.6.147.186 (talk) 17:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ongoing bias 

message: The OH didn't itemise British and Allied casualties; the 18th and 12th divisions did in general terms and Boraston covers 27 Sep to 5 Oct as The Battle of Cambrai and the Hindenburg Line (pp 280-285) and so its enumeration of 30 Br and 2 US divisions probably exceeds the scope of this article. Best I could do I'm afraid.Keith-264 (talk) 10:17, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: No worries, thanks for looking. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:38, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Casualties 

message: Hi there, I think this may be helpful to those interested in the battle: https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/the-latest-wwi-podcast/ep-82a-extra-episode-the-capture-of-the-riqueval-bridge-jim-tanner/ 71.220.209.71 (talk) 20:49, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brig Jim Tanner on the battle 

message: Shouldn't this article be called "Battle of St. Quentin Canal"? As it is, the title is missing the period after the "St". Kornatice (talk) 03:29, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: So I did some research and apparently "St" is just as valid as "St." In that case, then shouldn't it be consistent? The title uses no period, but the opening paragraph uses one. The article uses both throughout. Kornatice (talk) 18:03, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  St?