Talk:Christian views on magic

message: I don't understand why practices like exorcism and prayer healing would not be counted as magic from an objective point of view. It seems to me lots of what we call "magic" amounts to invoking a deity to do tasks for us, and this appears to me all over Christianity, but i did a search and the word is not even mentioned on the page. Seems a glaring omission, unless i just don't understand what magic is. Take prayers themselves... take baptism... Why does this page not even mention these things, as if all these Christian rituals are not to be classified in the same way as the non-Christian ones, can we make a definition of magic to justify that? I actually came here hoping to see some information on actual Christian magic, which to my mind includes exorcism. At the top it talks about some "esoteric Christianity" which actually has magic which sort of implies most Christianity doesn't, that's definitely news to me... as if what? Is it part of the definition of the word that mainstream practices must be excluded? Maybe this page just needs a better definition of the term or its intended use here?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.145.35.24 (talk) 05:07, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exorcism /is/ magic, if not why not? 

message: As I explained in my edit comment, having 20 or so translations of the same verse adds nothing to this article; particularly since most of them are almost identical.  Two or three at the very most would be sufficient.  A more useful use of that space would be a well-cited discussion regarding the translation issues surrounding that verse.Nimrand 14:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also want to point out that the focus on the bible verses and imposing of a particular POV based on those verses (rather than providing well-cited information regarding the topic of the article) that nearly got this article deleted a few months back.Nimrand 18:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Multiple Translations of the Bible Verses

message: I propose renaming this article Christian views on magic.
Most of this article is relevant to Christian views on magic, rather than witchcraft in any narrow sense. The one section that focuses particularly on the phenomenon of "witchcraft", as it was termed during the witch-trial period, is largely lifted from the Witch-hunt article, and better dealt with there.
As I expressed earlier on this talk page, the term witchcraft is immediately problematic, since it has so many quite distinct definitions for different people; any discussion of witchcraft will have difficulty being anything more than a discussion of what different groups think the word means (which we already have in the Witchcraft article). We had a small section regarding this problem in this article, but I removed it because it was quite incorrect, based on a misunderstanding of the cited source. I couldn't figure out how to salvage anything from it.
Where this gets really interesting though, is when we start considering what Christian views on magic are. "Witchcraft" certainly comes into this discussion, but we will be at less pains to present that term as it is understood by all different parties; we also get to touch on the interesting subject of what separates certain rituals of Christianity from magic, what the difference is between miracle and magic, etc. It just seems that this name change would allow much freer discussion without constantly stumbling over terminology and trying to avoid passing the boundaries of the term "witch", a term that has many narrow definitions but few broad ones. Fuzzypeg☻ 22:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we will have to eventually reorganize much of the article due to the renaming, but I believe it will be for the best.Nimrand 02:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree that the article needs to be renamed, but am less than enthusiastic about the choice of the word magic.  I would suspect that most people probably associate the word magic with stage magic and suspect that using that term may simply create another sort of problem with the title.  Perhaps sorcery or conjuring or something along those lines might be more accurate?  Labyrinth13 20:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How about Christian views on magic and the occult? And even if most people (other than anyone who has ever had experience with a fantasy novel or RPG) think of magic as rabbit-out-of-a-hat sleight of hand, there are some Christian denominations that oppose that too -- I can't remember which ones, but I do remember being pamphletted back in university. --SigPig |SEND - OVER 21:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is getting more and more problematic, isn't it?  I mean, the word occult is a bit loaded and can mean different things to different people.  It really is beginning to appear to me that since the subject of this entry is covered already in other Wikipedia entries (as noted by Fuzzypeg above), that it might just be a candidate for merging elsewhere or even deletion?  Just a thought.  Labyrinth13 21:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If it were to be merged, the most appropriate place would be Magic and religion. I don't share your concerns about the term "magic", since in the context of Christianity or religion it seems fairly clear what it's referring to. But regardless, a merge may be appropriate, as long as we don't mind making that article a bit top-heavy in its Christianity section... Fuzzypeg☻ 00:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Disagree with move: This article currently talks about witchcraft. Christian views on magic could be a notable article, but it would have entirely different content than this article.--Kevinkor2 01:18, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Agree with move: I still think the move is appropriate.  Firstly, I doubt the term will cause confusion, particularly since there already Wikipedia articles that use the term "Magic" broadly.  Also, I have to disagree with Kevinkor2.  The whole point is that the current title forces the article to stay within the topic of the amorphously defined term "Witchcraft".  Changing the name to "Magic", which includes "witchcraft", will allow a much broader and comprehensive treatment of the topic.Nimrand 03:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Agree with move On further consideration and reading the other comments here, changing to magic seems to be the better choice.  Using the term witchcraft can too easily be misconstrued as being biased toward certain religious beliefs or taking an anti-Wicca or anti-Pagan stance (adherents of those religions often practice what they call witchcrat).  Using the word magic seems less loaded and confusing.  Labyrinth13 13:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 

message: I would like to hear opinions about the part of the article that refers to Paul and John as mystics.  The article on mysticism states that mysticism is "the pursuit of achieving communion or ... conscious awareness of ... God through direct experience."  To my knowledge the orthodox view is that God initiated the visions that Paul and John had.  If anything, God was in pursuit of them.  I think identifying Paul and John as mystics implies that they were seeking truth on their own accord and not relying on God.
Further, the mysticism article states, "The purpose of mystical practices is to achieve that oneness in experience, to transcend limited identity and re-identify with the all that is."  Nowhere have I heard that Paul and John were trying to achieve oneness with God or that they considered themselves anything other than reliant on God.  Paul even referred to himself as a "bondservant."
In my opinion, Paul and John do not fit the definition of "mystics," and this portion of the article should be removed.
:"I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, which said: 'Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.'" Revelation.--174.6.25.89 (talk) 08:33, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian mysticism 

message: I've gone ahead and moved all the old discussions (pre-2007) into an archive. A few replies from 2007 got mixed in, but all topics created from Jan 2007 to now are still on this page. If anyone wants to continue a discussion from the archive, please start a new topic here. Do not edit the archive itself! -- Kesh 02:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archive 

message: After reading this article I conclude that it was written a christian who believes in magic. This article is heaviely biased and even more unprofessional than my grammar. It should be deleted or completely deleted, it does not contain any useful information.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.129.112.3 (talk) 23:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's extremely vague, and also incorrect that it "does not contain any useful information." Do you have specific issues with the article we can work on? -- Kesh 23:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Okay, I honestly don't know what the hell you're talking about. It does not say "jesus defeated the devil" or anything close to that. Yes, magic doesn't exist. That doesn't mean some Christians stop believing in it. This article is about those beliefs. -- Kesh 23:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article should be rewritten with a open mind 

message: I think some mentioning of "Christian" occult groups or groups influence by Christianity should be mention in the article. Such as Rosicrucianism, Gnosticism (Neo), Mormonism (as some would argue they lean torwards certian occult practices), occult organizations such as "The Order of the Golden Dawn", Freemasonary, Martinism etc.  All of which claim to be either Christian (esoterically that is) or Christian influenced. Essentially many view themselves as being Christian and do not view their practices as being perjorative "witchcraft" but view their practices as being align with biblical teachings (note: this is how THEY view themselves & I'm not saying they are right or wrong on the subject matter).
There are also sects (which of course most mainstream Christain view as herectical) practicing- practices which are seen to be occult influence. eg Appalachian Mountain Pentecostal poisonous snake dancing & strychnine groups/churches. (Christian Science- healing & Mormonism should be included as well. So should Pennsylvania Dutch "Pow Wow" doctors. Catholic exorcism etc etc)
Also note worthy are the various Christian influence occult books (grimoires)used by these practitioners or sects such as:
"The Long Lost Friend"  by John George Hohman
"The Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses" author unknown 
I feel the article is missing a great deal.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Henry123ifa (talk • contribs) 22:30, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Christianity itself is an occult group. And the whole concept of religion is based on magic.  This article is a very strange construct indeed, and I fail to see its relevance. ♆ CUSH ♆ 17:38, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Christian" Occult Groups & Sects 

message: While I think a neutral POV is being preserved here, I'm concerned at the proliferation of text without any sources. If paragraphs with no source were removed here, there'd be almost no article left! I propose to do exactly this in a few days time, to give folks a bit of leeway to support this article. But at present it has too much WP:ESSAY and WP:OR and it really needs cleaning out and rebuilding from sources. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 12:53, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the article fails to make a clear definition of its own subject matter in the first place. What is "magic"? How is "magic" different from "miracles" in Christianity? Why does Christianity make such a distincion? And of course RS are required to explore the subject. ♆ CUSH ♆ 14:01, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serious sourcing problem 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: According to A Course In Miracles, all magic is an illusion. You decide if you want that included here. Be bold, not reckless. Michael Ten (talk) 02:05, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  ACIM