Talk:Frances Fox Piven

message: I reinserted the deleted criticism section.  As "criticism" it is clearly identified as an opinion.  The author is a recognized commentator on race relations who has authored several books on the subject.  The fact that he is an "activist" (with no support for the assertion) is a red herring given that Pivens herself was an "activist" -- see biographical information at the referenced Yale web cite.  Disagreement with McWhorter's published opinion is no basis for deleting it.  If anything, the quote balances the POV since most of the honors and awards cited are from activist organizations on the other end of the political spectrum.  As for their respective areas of expertise. it's presumptuous and arrogant to assert that the experience of a Black man who grew up in the overtly racist Philadelphia of Mayor Frank Rizzo, and then in all-black Lawnsdale, New Jersey, is somehow a less authentic experience than that of a white female Canadian-American with degrees in city planning.  If you think it unbalances the POV, mark it as such and let someone else review it. 123.127.110.166 (talk) 11:57, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no evidence that his opinions are notable on piven. See WP:WEIGHT for assistance here. I don't give a shit about mcwhorter's childhood. That has nothing to do why his claims on piven's true intent or unsuited for an article on piven.Bali ultimate (talk) 12:11, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

text: McWhorter's quote is representative of a larger body of opinion.  If we put in all the references to the New York Times article, Rudy Giuliani's 1998 speech, the John Fund report, the Simpson articles, etc. the criticism section will form the largest portion of the article.  See WP:WEIGHT for assistance here.  Piven's true intent was expressly disclosed in her 1966 article with Cloward, if you haven't read it.  One commentator even noted, "Cloward and Piven never again revealed their intentions as candidly as they had in their 1966 article."  As it is, the criticism section is the only part of the article that actually has supporting references 123.127.110.166 (talk) 12:29, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry Ip. you don't have consensus for this.Bali ultimate (talk) 12:34, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism 

message: The attempted characterization of Piven's comments in this edit  (taken from an interview with her hosted on youtube) is heavily editorial. Raised issues with whom? Why are they notable in the context of her life? What exactly is her view on violence and social change? I'll watch the youtube to figure out what actually was said -- but the best we could do with this to avoid original research is to directly quote her -- and certainly not do a compare and contrast of her own with MLK, GHandi and so on.Bali ultimate (talk) 13:41, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, definitely can't use this. There a number of reasons why. This is a 3 minute clip of a much longer conversation, which decontextualizes her comments (possibly). Given all the propoganda efforts surrounding taking people's quotes out of context, some random youtube user's editorial decision to select this 3 minutes alone (and why) is a problem. Further, having listened to her comments, i think the summary effort badly mischaracterizes her comments -- essentially she makes a fairly common argument that non-violence is tactical and strategic, rather than a goal in itself. Other's may disagree with my analysis of her comments (i've posted a quick transcript of my own below) but that's just the point. It's highly interprative for any person to divine the essence of those comments, it's an act of original research and synthesis to do so. Given that she's been a minor public figure sine the 60s, has lots of work of her own published (and commentary on her work and views in scholarly publications) let's go with that.
"Q: It seems most progressive movements are committed to non violence, but you seem to be advocating a more strong, physical resistance. At what point do we draw the line. What amt of prop damage do we accept, what amt of phys violence do we accept. What issues are strong enough to put us in a place where we are willing to stand and take a beating for what we believe. 
*A: Those are good qs. They’re hard to answer in the abstract I think. I have considerable respect for non violence, but I don’t treat it as an inevitably necessary rule. The reason I have respect for non violence is that I think it helps to protect the protestors. The espousal of the g oal of non violence is a form of self defense. Now everybody knows  that the civil rights movement in the South professed non violence that people were taught to cover their heads when the white mobs came to beat them up and to just endure the spitting, beating and so forth. But, violence, the violence of the white mob was being used strategically in those demonstrations. You think they didn’t know the mob was going to beat them up. Of course they did. They were trying to do -- they were using violence, violence was part of those movements and part of why they were successful. Moreover even African Americans were not always non violent, the riots in Birmingham, were African American riots and there were, I’ve forgotten now what they were called, but there were uhm (someone in audience says “deacons for defense) what? Deacons for defense. That’s right. I met those guys and they were serious. So, look, it’s partly a problem of almost strategy and propaganda, it’s a violent country, it’s a violent government, it’s killing people and they’re going to call us violent if we break a window, but they will do that. So probably, unless you have good reason for breaking the window, probably you shouldn’t do that, unless it’s a big part of your strategy."Bali ultimate (talk) 14:05, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Youtube

message: There's a fair amount of internet discussion going on regarding a list of Jewish people criticized by Glenn Beck that includes Piven.
Jeffrey Goldberg asserts her inclusion as a Jew in a post for the The Atlantic:  Glenn Beck's Jewish Problem.
(There's also an MSNBC interview of Piven by Cenk Uygur where she leaves the inclusion unchallenged.)
The most reliable source I've found for Piven being Jewish is that she's included in Murray Polner's 1982 book American Jewish Biographies.
What do other editors think of including her religion in the "Life and education" section, citing Polner?  (NB: I have no intention of including the Beck/Jewish controversy in the article.)  Rostz (talk) 15:01, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to me there are enough reliable sources to categorise her as Jewish (although a self-description would still be preferable). Feel free to add it to the article. Robofish (talk) 14:59, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, thanks for the second opinion. Rostz (talk) 23:27, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

text: I removed as irrelevant. Glrx (talk) 02:13, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, though why is it also not irrelevant to hundreds of other BLPs?  (:Category:Jewish scientists, :Category:Jewish actors, etc.) Thanks, Rostz (talk) 04:26, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of those lists, categories, and additions aren't relevant either. It doesn't matter if they are Jewish, Catholic, or Animist. Unless their particular religion is a fundamental part of why they are notable the tagging is simply stupid. John lilburne (talk) 19:25, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: She doesn't identify herself as such here: http://www.guernicamag.com/interviews/3076/west_piven_interview_9_15_11/ Dogru144 (talk) 17:03, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion 

message: (also posted at WP:ANI)
I went ahead and semi-protected the article; the last thing we need right now is someone who doesn't know better adding stuff in there that can cause further damage. –MuZemike 02:05, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree --JLAmidei (talk) 02:28, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected indefinitely 

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thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page 

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thread_title:  External links modified