Talk:Parthenon/Archive 1

message: The phrase "was built at the initiative of Pericles" does not seem grammatical to me. Akb4 03:14, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: miscellaneous

message: Akb4, rather than respond to all your scattered comments individually, I'm just going to write down here. First of all, let's remember that we're not supposed to conduct original research here; we're not supposed to come to our own decisions about what the truth is, rather we report the views of reputable scholars. The citations I've provided, from standard handbooks of Greek archaeology and architecture, and from the Oxford Classical Dictionary, the standard reference work in English for the classical world, show that the standard practice in modern scholarship is to call the Parthenon a temple. To this we may add the Greek Ministry of Culture's site for the Acropolis, which calls the Parthenon a temple. Furthermore, an indication that the Parthenon is generally referred to as a temple in college and university classes may be seen at this webpage for Reed College's Humanities 110 course and this webpage by Janice Siegel, professor of Classical Languages and Literature at Illinois State University. I'll add this entry from the Perseus Project, which discusses the Parthenon as a "Doric peripteral temple." I can provide links to additional scholarly sources if necessary.
I hope my point is clear: most scholars refer to the Parthenon as a temple. There really is no debate about whether we should call the Parthenon a temple. There is, however, broad agreement that the Parthenon did not function as a Greek temple usually functioned. Notice that there's two separate issues there, and scholars are usually happy to refer to the Parthenon as a temple while saying that it wasn't a temple in the usual sense of the word. The Wikipedia article should follow standard practice, and call the Parthenon a temple. In response to your concerns I'll note that it's very easy to write the article in such a way that the word "temple" doesn't need to be used very much; we can call it a monument, building, structure, etc. But the word "temple" must be used in the definition, because that is what most scholarship calls the Parthenon. To call it something else is to take a side in a scholarly debate, which looks like original research to me.
You point to the discussion above as evidence that some scholars insist that the Parthenon should not be called a temple. But only one published work is cited, that of Holtzmann and Pasquier. It's not entirely clear whether H&P argue that we cannot under any circumstances call the Parthenon a temple, or whether they present what I would say is the consensus view, that the Parthenon did not function as a standard Greek temple. If, however, Holtmann and Pasquier maintain that we can't call the Parthenon a temple, they do not represent a majority view, especially in Anglo-American scholarship. To slip into bean-counting for a moment, I've provided eight citations, including some from standard reference works, in comparison to the one reference above that (apparently) insists the Parthenon should not be called a temple. It would be appropriate to mention Holtzmann and Pasquier in the "Treasury or Temple?" section (but whoever cites them should make sure to read them in the original French). At any rate the more substantive point to be drawn from these scholars is that the Parthenon did not function like many other temples: this dispute over whether we can call the Parthenon a temple or not is simply not a prominent issue in scholarship on the Parthenon.
You raise some issues of definition in one of your comments. Your argument seems to be the following: if we can say that there are five functions of a Greek temple, and the Parthenon only serves two, then we cannot call it a temple. I think, since we're not relying on published academic arguments here, we're straying into original research. But since I started off this line of argument, let me just ask you to contemplate why it is that we can call football, Scrabble, hopscotch, and Crazy Eights all "games". It's fairly difficult to come up with a set of essential characteristics of games that all of these activities fulfill. Similarly, it's quite possible that the buildings that Greeks called "temples" didn't do all the things we think temples do. (For more on problems of definition, an interesting place to start is with Wittgenstein's notion of family resemblance, or perhaps by reading Plato.)
Futhermore, the Greeks called the Parthenon a temple, and we should be very happy to follow their example. The inscriptions that record the money spent on building the Parthenon call it a temple (a translation of the inscriptions is available in Dinsmoor, American Journal of Archaeology, 17.1 (1913) 53-80). If the people who built it and lived with it and used it called it a temple, why shouldn't we? Now, the argument I just made is original research, and so shouldn't appear in the article, but it's necessary here to make an original argument because there really is no controversy in the scholarship as to whether we should call the Parthenon a temple. I'll repeat, the issue of nomenclature is separate from the issue of function; scholars are happy to call the Parthenon a temple (nomenclature) while agreeing that it did not have all the functions of most Greek temples. I'll add that in my opinion, most experts on Greek archaeology and architecture would regard the debate we're having here as a bit silly.
You also disagree with the opening sentence. Here's how it appears right now:
The Parthenon (Greek: Παρθενώνας) was a temple of Athena, built in the 5th century BC on the Acropolis of Athens.
Here's what this sentence tells you:
1. "Parthenon": the name of the monument.
2. "temple": tells you that the building has a particular architectural form.
3. "temple of Athena": tells you what goddess this building was dedicated to.
4. "built in the 5th century BC": tells you when the monument was built.
5. "on the Acropolis of Athens": tells you where the monument was and is.
This is a very specific definition; it gives you plenty of information right away. In contrast, "the best known surviving building of ancient greece" is vague. It doesn't tell you what the architectual form of the building was, it doesn't tell you when or where it was built, and it doesn't tell you why the building is famous. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Parthenon as a temple

message: See the edit as of 18:27, 27 January 2006 by 161.74.11.24. I'm not sure if this is really NPOV, or is borderline propaganda on the "side" of the British (I'm English myself). Reading the previous version though, it could be considered not quite neutral, instead favouring the Greek side. What do other people think? Should we keep this new edit? Eurosong 20:07, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV re: Elgin Marbles 

message: Extract from Liddell Scott & Jones:
parthenos , Lacon. parsenos Ar.Lys.1263 (lyr.). hê, 
A. maiden, girl, Il.22.127, etc. ; hai athliai p. emai my unhappy girls, S.OT1462, cf. Ar.Eq.1302 ; also gunê parthenos Hes. Th.514 ; p. kora, of the Sphinx, dub. in E.Ph.1730 (lyr.); thugatêr p. X.Cyr.4.6.9 ; of Persephone, E. Hel.1342 (lyr.), cf. S.Fr.804; virgin, opp. gunê, Id.Tr.148, Theoc.27.65. 
2. of unmarried women who are not virgins, Il.2.514, Pi.P.3.34, S.Tr.1219, Ar.Nu.530. 
3. Parthenos, hê, the Virgin Goddess, as a title of Athena at Athens, Paus.5.11.10, 10.34.8 (hence of an Att. coin bearing her head, E.Fr.675); of Artemis, E.Hipp.17 ; of the Tauric Iphigenia, Hdt.4.103 ; of an unnamed goddess, SIG46.3 (Halic., v B.C.), IG12.108.48,54 (Neapolis in Thrace); hai hierai p., of the Vestal Virgins, D.H.1.69, Plu.2.89e, etc. ; hai Hestiades p. Id.Cic.19; simply, hai p. D.H.2.66. 
4. the constellation Virgo, Eudox. ap. Hipparch. 1.2.5, Arat.97, etc. 
5. = korê 111, pupil, X.ap.Longin.4.4, Aret. SD1.7. 
II. as Adj., maiden, chaste, parthenon psuchên echôn E.Hipp. 1006 , cf. Porph. Marc.33 ; mitrê p. Epigr.Gr.319 : metaph., p. pêgê A.Pers.613 . 
III. as masc., parthenos, ho, unmarried man, Apoc.14.4. 
IV. p. gê Samian earth (cf. parthenios 111 ), PMag.Berol.2.57.
Adam 02:53, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Adam, you're killing me here. You say that the building is "officially" called the "Temple of Athena the Virgin", but you're translating it to English to do so! Then you use that as justification to say that parthenos means virgin! Virgin and maiden are not synonymous in English, and the words are not precisely translatable, so why do you insist on simplifying the issue? The source above even lists "maiden" as its A-level definition! There's obviously doubt here and I'm not sure what your qualifications are to unilaterally enforce your view upon this article. Please help me/us understand. -- nae'blis (talk) 06:30, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

text: That's what I don't get, Adam. We're using the same sources! But you're relying on the 19th-century interpretations, and I'm talking about a) contextual meaning in ancient Greek, and b) not succumbing to Victorian simplicities. You cannot logically expect me to accept an 18th-century discovery of a phenomenon, which uses ancient Greek as its roots, to explain why we should narrowly define the ancient Greek itself in terms of the 18th- and 19th-century usages! That's circular reasoning at its finest. Parthénos is the stage of a woman's life in ancient Greece before marriage, not necessarily sex (which wasn't as important, since she was largely property in that society). source with further bibliography. Just because nymphomania uses the same word root as 'wife' doesn't mean that all wives are sex-crazed! -- nae'blis (talk) 14:10, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Parthenos

message: I do not see how this can remain FA without references or citations.  Please put them in!PDXblazers 00:07, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: References, Citations?

message: it would be nice to have the images alternate floating right, left, right, left....or to have some variance rather than floating right, right, right, right. Kingturtle 19:57, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  images 

message: I added a short paragraph referencing the Parthenon replica in Nashville, TN. If you get a chance, visit it! Cheaper than a Grecian vacation, and walking through the massive bronze doors and seeing the overwhelming statue of Athena Parthenos at the opposite end of the building is awe-inspiring. It was an amazing experience that must be akin what the ancient Greeks felt upon entering the temple. -- Woody Eadie
*shudders at thought of the Parthenon in Nashville* (I suppose it's better than Gracelands in Athens) Adam 09:21, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nashville Parthenon 

message: (PS: Tell me what you think of the image I deleted today from Antinous and the comment I make on my reason for deleting it in Talk:Antinous.)  Adam 14:04, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: ...a 19th-century neoclassical ideal bust "of Antinous type"? --Wetman 13:48, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  antinous 

message: Why does 'Golden Ratio' appear in the "see also" category? I'm removing it... please explain why it's there if you put it back.
: I expect it's there because the external dimensions make a golden rectangle.. -- nae'blis (talk) 15:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Golden Ratio? 

message: As I mention above, no one ever called the Parthenon the "Temple of Athena the Virgin"--i.e., no one ever says ho neos Athenes Parthenou. If you disagree, please find an ancient source that actually says this.
Otherwise, it looks like an attempt to translate "Parthenon", but it isn't a good translation. It's in fact not entirely clear what "Parthenon" means--it could well mean "of the virgins", which has been traced to the arrhephoroi, the young girls who weaved the peplos presented to Athena in the Panathenaea. It does seem likely that it derives from the cult statue in the building, which was known as Athena Parthenos, but scholars are not certain about this.
Even so, as I also mention above, ancient sources do not universally call the building the Parthenon. Originally, "Parthenon" seems to denote a particular room in the building, which gradually came to be used for the entire structure; even so, other names are used, such as hekatompedos (the "hundred-footer"). Plutarch (Life of Perikles 13.7) calls the building the Hekatompedon Parthenon (for a source on all of this, see Jefferey Hurwit, The Acropolis of Athens, pp. 161-163).
I've changed the sentences in the introduction, but perhaps it would be good to have an entire section about the name(s) of the Parthenon. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:39, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The Temple of Athena the Virgin" 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article states:
”On the north side of the Parthenon, the metopes are poorly preserved, but the subject seems to be the sack of Troy.”
No much later it states:
”Several of the metopes still remain on the building, but, with the exception of those on the northern side, they are severely damaged.”
What does that mean? That they are poorly preserved, so that we are not even sure if they present the sack of Troy, but not severely damaged?  Afil (talk) 02:12, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Northern metopes 

message: Hello! I have a source which corroborates that Phidius is the supervisor of the temple Parthenon, but somehow I can't find a placeholder in the infobox to input that information. Can someone help me? Thanks JN Dela Cruz (talk) 10:21, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phidias as supervisor of Parthenon