Talk:Ninjutsu/Archive 1

message: Perhaps someone could find some use for the information at  ?
Some brief information about the author:
* He is a shibucho and shihan in the Genbukan, one of the recognized X-kans that teach Ninjutsu.
* He holds a MA in Medieval Japanese History from Stanford University.
* He holds a PhD in the same from the Historiographical Institute of the University of Tokyo.
* He is a researcher at the aforementioned institute.
* He has specialized in reading medieval Japanese, and teaches Japanese history in Japan.
* He has a background as a special-forces captain, specialized in counterterrorism and precision combat.
This should make his work fairly valuable in increasing the signal-to-noise ratio in the articles regarding Ninjutsu, ninja, and the X-kans. Of course, a single source is not authorative, but this work is better documented than these pages appear to be, and I'm sure he would be willing to cite sources if a polite request was made, or possibly to make a Wikipedia account and touch up some of these pages himself. 212.169.96.218 01:06, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to some external information 

message: I made a start tidying up the following paragraph, but I realised that I can't make much sense out of it.
*Shin-Ninjitsu originated in Europe in 2003. It was conceived out of frustration with the authentic styles. Since some of the styles labeled as being controversial are more like what Ninjutsu would have looked like in the 16th century than many of the authentic styles who focus more on the hand to hand combat aspect of Ninjutsu. This is why the founders of Ryu-Ha Shin-Ninjitsu labeled their style a modern form of Ninjutsu. The title Shin is reserved for styles that don’t have a direct lineage to a Japanese Ryu either because they mixed several styles or because it’s a special forces system.
reference: http://experts.about.com/e/r/ry/Ryu-Ha_Shin-Ninjitsu.htm
It's implied that Shin-Ninjitsu(sic) resembles 16th century ninjutsu more than the 'authentic' styles - but would that make Shin-Ninjutsu more authentic?  From where do they get their description of what ninjutsu involved, and why specifically the 16th century?  It would be good if someone could provide more information regarding this system, specifically: 
Why the focus on 16th century historical ninjutsu, and the ambiguity around the word 'authentic'? 
Is there a precedent for the use of 'Shin' in this context?  Can it be provided?  
The mention of 'special forces system' seems like a pointless description - could this be made more accurate? 
SimonFr 10:39, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: With no further input, and for the reasons above, I have trimmed the section and hopefully made it fit with the rest of the article. SimonFr 16:34, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I think we should create an new article about Shin-Ninjutsu, in order to keep track of all non-traditional styles.--201.19.29.53 22:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

text: To group the Genbukan and Jinenkan under neo-ninjutsu would make no sense. Both are teaching essentially the same curriculum as the Bujinkan, with primarily a difference in teaching style and emphasis. Neither makes any attempt at passing ninjutsu off as anything more than it is. None of the X-kans teach the ninjutsu part of the curriculum to any significant extent anymore, as it is relevant only as a history preservation effort; the techniques are specific to the era, technology and political environment when they where developed. Zuiram 23:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shin-Ninjitsu 

message: Someone's just added a mention of the Bujinkan Brian Dojo, headed by Brian McCarthy.  I would have said this wasn't a large enough group to be mentioned alongside the Jinenkan and Genbukan, as otherwise the list would include people like Ishizuka, too. I'm wary of removing the mention myself, as I'm aware I probably have a personal bias in this matter.  What to do?  SimonFr 09:39, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: _Bujinkan_ Brian Dojo - the name is clearly intended to communicate association with the Bujinkan.  As such, it needs to go to a new heading, or move to the Bujinkan article. Paleorthid 16:05, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've removed the mention of the BBD from this article, and will look into a list of similar Bujinkan splinter groups to add to the Bujinkan page.  SimonFr 16:11, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bujinkan Brian Dojo 

message: "Other Schools: There are many frauds out there claiming to teach Ninjutsu, the only legitimate schools are the ones listed in the previous paragraph." -- the sort of claim that greatly benefits from documentation.
:For documentation, please refer to the Japanese martial arts lineages registry. It is essentially the reference for such things. Also, if you can't read/speak Japanese, you might want to consider that the term Ninjutsu generally refers to the "covert" ops parts of the styles practiced in the Iga and Koga regions; the Koga lineages are documented to be extinct, while the Iga lineages have been passed on to Matsumi Hasaaki (plus the Togakure-ryu Tanemura-ha lineage which branched from it). In the ryu-ha system, there is generally a linear succession (with the occasional -ha split) of grandmastership.
:In the meaning of "legitimate" that I think was meant here, there is no ambiguity in the sources. What you might want to discuss, however, is the exact meaning of "legitimate" in such a context. If you consider anyone who has trained in such an art as a legitimate source for a new lineage, that may be a different matter. 212.169.96.218 23:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Schools 

message: A new category for those interested in martial arts has been created at Category:Wikipedians_interested_in_martial_arts. To add yourself, simply copy the following code to the bottom of your own user page:
:
Shawnc 11:44, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Marial arts category for Wikipedians

message: Does ninjutsu use thee same terms as karate for punches and kicks.
If not,what is the terminology for different moves.
Batzarrö
: Sort of.  There are still Japanese words being used, so when coming from Shotokan to the Bujinkan, I could recognise bits of it, but the names of specific things aren't quite the same.  For example, karate has 'gyaku tsuki' (reverse lunge/thrust) as a rear hand punch, and you meet those words in Ninjutsu - 'Omote Gyaku' as an 'outside reverse' lock, and 'tsuki' as a thrust or stab, commonly with a weapon.  Punching in ninjutsu is not done in the same style as karate, however, and it's not referred to as a tsuki. The biggest change of meaning for me was learning that 'uke' (as in age uke, uchi uke, and other blocks) does not mean 'block', but 'receive', and is used to mean receiving the technique, both in terms of blocking (but again, a different type of blocking to karate) and as a person receiving the technique of someone who is practicing. Hope this helps. SimonFr 11:35, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Terminology, possibly OT

message: Many of the jutsus described here and in the Naruto article have great similarities compared to those described in the Journey to the West novel about the monkey king.  The ability to transform and/or disappear into the earth etc. are incredible in either case.  However are these fictional skills related to the real ninjutsu?  They are so similar that it is hard to believe the ninjutsu was not influenced by these mythical Chinese skills (奇門遁甲).  Kowloonese 22:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Check Intonjutsu or Gotonpo . Several names are maybe inspired in real techniques and the "increbible" or "magical" attribute of them are part of the psychological warfare.--Xymor 18:38, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Similarities with Journey to the West

message: The references at the bottom of the ninjutsu page are to books by Masaaki Hatsumi. Is there really any evidence that Hatsumi has actually trained "real" ninjutsu? I have heard this disputed and I know that the Swedish martial arts expert Robert von Sandor tried to make Hatsumi present evidence of this, but he got no reply.
What is really the evidence that Hatsumi trained authentic ninjutsu, or that any kind of ninjutsu has actually survived to this day? -Duribald
:I guess you could consult the martial arts registry, or the proceedings behind the "living national treasure" bits. Or you could consult the scrolls that are used as a traditional means of lineagal transmission.
:As for getting no reply, to the best of my knowledge, Hatsumi receives tons of different requests for various things via various media. Also, I'm not exactly sure his English is all that great. I'm not necessarily claiming that his "survival techniques" (a fairly literal translation of the word Ninjutsu) are genuine, but not answering every request from people who want you to prove the merit of your life's work is not necessarily proof that it has no merit. The skills are, however, no longer emphasized, as they are generally severely out of date; Hatsumi's teacher clearly pointed out that they were a product of a different time, and that if the need for these skills should ever arise, people would need to devise new techniques for their particular scenario.
:In brief, the combat skills taught by Hatsumi are authentic and not exclusively used by the ninja. The non-combat skills (ninjutsu) appear to be authentic, but have a purely academic interest. 212.169.96.218 00:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable 

message: I removed the quote by Takamatsu ("Also, remember that Takamatsu said.."). This is an encyclopedia, articles need to be constructed in a professional, informational manner, and not in a conversational tone. The quote looked totally out of place in the context it was in.
I modified the "the espionage techniques of ninjutsu are no longer taught..." because it was again, written in a casual, conversational tone. It's been rewritten more appropriately.
I removed the sentence about Togakure ryu being verified as a ninjutsu school. No such verification has ever taken place.
Paradoxbox2
August 5, 2006
:Togakure Ryu itself is not disputed. Whether the lineage through Takamatsu-san is authentic Togakure, however, might be disputed by some people. In general, there is little controversy, though. These skills are of purely academic interest nowadays anyway. If you have any questions, I'd suggest contacting capt. Roy "Tosen" Ron at ninpo.org; his dayjob is teaching Japanese medieval history at the Tokyo Uni, historic faculty. He spends a lot of time on research, and could probably provide you with a definitive answer and the sources to back it up, if you make a polite inquiry. Zuiram 23:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some edits by me... 

message: All martial arts I see teach detachment.  Over coming ones external and internal fears.  Detachment from the body, then mind then the union with the spirit.  The heart opens to see that their is no enemy.  Their was no one their but the self.  The attcker was mind and the defender was mind.  The spirit remained a silent witness to the mind.  The mind feared mind, its attchments.  Their was no attacker their was no defender.  The silent soul.
But what was the point of your post? Wikisquared 12:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The heart of the warrior 

message: This is a list of "modern ninjutsu styles" that is rather out-of-place in the "ninja" section.  I would add it to the ninjutsu article, but since it is not properly sourced, I don't want to dump a huge unsourced lump into it.  I -suspect- that the source for this is the book cited at the end of the ninja article:
Hatsumi, Masaaki (June 1981). Ninjutsu: History and Tradition. Unique Publications. .
Since the original contributor did not source well, I can't be sure.
There are a few substantial articles that the links connect to, notably Togakure-ryū and Kōga-ryū (the few which have ties to the writer Masaaki Hatsumi).  Since none of the other declared regional styles even have articles, I suspect it'd be easier and more apt to just refer to those one or two that do have articles, if this article doesn't mention them somewhere already.
Tchalvak 08:44, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern Ninjutsu Styles, List Dump 

message: I don't want to offend anyone, but ninjas, historically did not practice anything they called ninjitsu, the name ninjitsu derives from the word ninja, not the other way around. The only things we know for certain of ninjas is that they referred to their wide range of skills as ninpo. And that is not just their fighting skills or martial arts, but other skills as well, such as wilderness survival, none of these things were ever taught to anyone who was not a ninja. Ninjas were very secretive, their ways secluded and too little was ever recorded about their practices to be studied intimately to the point where those same refined practices could still be practiced today. The real ninpo, died with the real ninjas. Ninjitsu is an irrelavent term if you are referring to anything about real, historical ninjas. ManofRenown87 02:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ninjitsu vs Ninpo 

message: This article does not present a balanced overview.  Hatsumi's claims of ninjutsu lineages are undocumented and unverified, just as are Ashida Kim's and Frank Dux's.  Breaking these down into "verified" and "unverified" sections implies legitimacy for the former.  One might note that the "verification" only refers to the fact that Hatsumi teaches in Japan, and that is undisputed.  Placing the bujinkan/genbukan/jinenkan under "schools of ninjutsu" also seems biased.  "three of which contain ninjutsu teachings" again shows bias.  A more balanced phrase would be "three of which are claimed to contain ninjutsu teachings".  Rather than continue, perhaps the following re-write might prove useful:
Heading: "Schools that claim to teach ninjutsu"
The Bujinkan Dōjō headed by Masaaki Hatsumi claims to teach ninjutsu (under the name Budo Taijutsu). Hatsumi's Bujinkan Dōjō consists of nine separate schools of allegedly traditional Japanese martial arts, only three of which are claimed to contain ninjutsu teachings. Hatsumi learned a variety of martial arts, possibly including ninjutsu, from Toshitsugu Takamatsu.
There are two related organizations claiming to teach ninjutsu. These are the Genbukan, headed by Shoto Tanemura, who left the Bujinkan in 1984, and the Jinenkan, headed by Fumio Manaka, who left later. Both had achieved Menkyo Kaiden before leaving due to differences of opinion with regards to the teaching style.
Other extant traditional martial arts such as the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shintō-ryū claim to contain some aspects of ninjutsu in their curriculum, but their teachings are focused elsewhere.
Ashida Kim is an American martial artist who has made unverified claims of cross-training into ninjutsu, as well as unsubstantiated claims of being the last Koga-ryu ninja. 
Frank Dux is a martial artist whose ninjutsu claims are unverified. 
Koga-ryu Ninjutsu is believed to have survived into the mid-20th century, apparently having been passed to Fujita Seiko by a relative. Seiko had students, but did not pass on this legacy. Koga-ryu arts are generally considered to be virtually identical to the Iga-ryu arts.
There are several offshoots of the bujinkan system:
Israel was one of the first places where Bujinkan teachings were practiced outside Japan, with Doron Navon pioneering it there in 1974. The AKBAN organization uses the Bujinkan curriculum the way it was used when Doron Navon, the first foreign Bujinkan shihan, studied under Hatsumi sensei.
Stephen K. Hayes studied under Hatsumi and teaches an Americanized system, To-Shin Do, in his Quest Centers.
Richard Van Donk, who was one of the first foreigners to take the Godan test from Soke Hatsumi, encouraged Hatsumi to do videos of his teachings and helped him distribute them worldwide, thereby growing the bujinkan system. Richard has been graded to 15th dan from Hatsumi.
The Late Dr. Glenn Morris studied under Hatsumi and founded the Hoshin Roshi Ryu.
Chadwick Minge studied under Shoto Tanemura and founded the "Yamato Dojo" ("Studio City Martial Arts") based in California.
Brian McCarthy was graded to 8th dan and awarded the title of shihan by Hatsumi. He founded the Bujinkan Brian Dojo (BBD) in the early 1980's and has dojo's around Europe. Brian McCarthy withdrew the BBD from the administration of the Bujinkan International (as it was called) in 1997. The BBD continues to provide high quality instruction in traditional bujinkan teachings.
Inutoneko 05:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undocumented claims