Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies/Archive 10

message: I was looking for some LGBT link from Visibility (disambiguation) but found none, is there anything appropriate? I've certainly heard of gay visibility but blanking on what else it might be called in wikiland. Benjiboi 07:17, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gay visibility? 

message: The article on the (gay) British journalist Johann Hari is an article within our scope, and it's tagged LGBT studies. Much help is needed, because all progress is impeded by constant battles and smear campaigns. If there's anyone here who likes doing research, finding citations, and enforcing NPOV, please contribute! Thanks, — Emiellaiendiay 18:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Note. This page is currently protected from editing until disputes have been resolved. Benjiboi 23:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Johann Hari 

message: An Rfc has been started regarding several issues relating to this article. Editors dispute both the notability of the subject as well as the reliability of sources and verifiability of facts. There are also concerns related to abuse of administrative/bureaucratic powers. Article has been reduced to a stub twice, and nominated for deletion. Relevant policies include WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:OR. As several of our project members are involved on both sides of the issues,I thought it appropriate to add a notice here. If anybody feels this is canvassing, please feel free to delete this. An additional, formal notice has been placed on the Biography project, since they have an Rfc template. Maybe we need one, too? Jeffpw 19:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The note on our project tag explaining why we have tagged the article is too vague. Right now, it reads: "The subject of this article was involved both before and after becoming adult". Involved in what? I can infer what that means, but I shouldn't have to. And it might be wise for the wikiproj to have an RfC like WPBIO. ZueJay (talk) 20:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Explanation fixed to read "involved in gay pornography both before and after reaching adulthood". Jeffpw 21:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Better, thanks. Is it necessary to say "before and after reaching adulthood" - seems like too much information (it is information that should be communicated in the article).ZueJay (talk) 21:17, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hehehehehe. Your comment certainly addresses the crux of the dispute. The article has been so sanitized now one could be forgiven for thinking Justin made Sesame Street videos instead of teen porn. Anyway, if you can think of some better wording, please feel free to change it. My involvement is only trying to mediate the dispute. Jeffpw 21:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ha! Oh man. I do not want to get involved in the dispute I see there right now. It seems kinda like the Clay Aiken dispute in that we have reliable sources yet we can't include the information contained within them because it might be offensive to some folks. My very mature opinion right now is "Pllttt!" ZueJay (talk) 22:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Justin Berry]] Rfc 

message: FYI, this article has been put on full protection because multiple anons have been removig info regarding GLBT historical refs, see. Benjiboi 22:16, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[St Stephen's House, Oxford]] gay history 

message: Has the  template ever been used effectively for an article cleanup? Nothing is using it as this time. / edg ☺ ★ 02:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Template:{{ucfirst:Gender bias}}]] 

message: I'm in a minor edit war and would like some outside opinion. Would someone(s) review James Anderton, Garry Bushell, and Frank Pakenham, 7th Earl of Longford with regards to whether they belong beside Fred Phelps and Anita Bryant in :Category:Homophobia?  Please comment on their talk pages.  Thanks! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 18:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Has this happened yet? If not which ones still need attention? Benjiboi 02:56, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Take a look through the category.  The main ones I'm concerned about are Anderton, Bushell, and Pakenham that I mentioned above.  The other two that I'm marginally concerned about are Tony Marco and Kevin Tebedo. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 05:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've commented on the first three's talk pages. Tony Marco and Kevin Tebedo are short stubs and they do support inclusion for now as it's all they are known for. Benjiboi 15:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category:Homophobia 

message: Hi. There's a section here advertising this interview. Someone here who doesn't have the page watchlisted could be interested. A.Z. 03:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikinews Interview with Evan Wolfson, Executive Director of [[Freedom to Marry]] 

message: I could have sworn that WP:MOS#Identity recommended using gay men or lesbians over homosexual, but I guess I was wrong.  I've proposed adding that recommendation.  Fireplace 13:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  MOS on homosexual vs. lesbian/gay 

message: A friendly editor is removing the project tag from this article, saying that restoring it would be vandalism by "homotrolls" (what a charming phrase).  A few more eyes may be helpful. -FisherQueen (Talk) 21:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bollocks.  You want to insert all the faggotry into every article at all possible.  This is not a new thing.  Ask User:Haiduc for tips on how to succeed, because he usually gets his way with gay POV shoved up all us arses.  Lord Loxley 21:56, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This charming fellow above has now been indef blocked, the reason being Attempting to harass other users: Continued harassment, incivility, and personal attacks after numerous warnings and blocks. Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 23:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Btw, what do you guys/gals make of this section? My first impulse was to remove it completely for non-NPOV and unsourced statements (which seem more like personal opinions), but I guess it can wait until I get a second opinion here. :-) Y'know, before they accuse us of being the gay cabal 'n' all... Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 23:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't even follow the writing to tell you what it says. I'd say remove it completely (There IS no Gay Cabal) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 00:55, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: lol. My head's spinning to understand what is actually being stated. I would, however simply remove it to talk pages and state concerns and that summary might be helpful and that the entire essay should be re-written for a more average reader or something to that effect. Benjiboi 00:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Illiterate screed. Junk it. By the way, I thought Loxley self-description above ("all us arses") was very apt. Haiduc 01:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Drop by and share your thoughts there too? :-) Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 21:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[James I of England]] 

message: On Tuesday, September 18, 2007, the lawyer for Anthony Fortunato, one of four men accused of causing the death of Michael Sandy in Brooklyn, NY last year, claimed that Fortunato is himself gay.  I'm wondering if this might be used as a potential defense against the hate crime portion of the charges.  Could this be the first "Gay Defense", right up there with the Twinkie Defense?  Or more completely, according to the New York Press, "I-didn’t-do-it-because-I’m-just-a-thief-and-drug-user-and-I’m-gay” defense"? Who knows.  P.S. - I added a section on the trial in Michael Sandy. — Becksguy 02:25, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI New York Times article - "Rather than a robbery, Mr. Patten argued, the luring of Mr. Sandy was better described as the crime of larceny by trick. The defendants intended to invite Mr. Sandy to smoke marijuana, ask for money to buy the drugs, then leave. The violent attack by Mr. Shurov, he said, was not anticipated by the other defendants.
Unlike robbery, larceny by trick is not an element of felony murder. The notion of a robbery, Mr. Patten said, was concocted after the fact by the prosecutors and investigators.
Mr. Fortunato’s lawyer made much the same argument, adding a twist by declaring his client’s homosexuality. Outside the courtroom, he sought to explain his theory, to a certain extent.
Mr. Fortunato, he said, might have planned to smoke marijuana with Mr. Sandy as a means of testing his friends’ sentiments about homosexuality. Or, he said, perhaps Mr. Fortunato had wanted to swindle a gay man, to see how his friends reacted to a gay person. Or, he said, perhaps Mr. Fortunato had simply wanted to rob somebody.
Beyond that, Mr. Di Chiara kept the defense strategy to himself." Benjiboi 23:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Defendant in trial for killing a gay man, Michael Sandy, claims he's also gay 

message: Burroughs wrote to me today and agreed to do an interview and photos.  We still need to arrange a time, but it is likely to be in the next week (I have such a full plate this week).  I'd appreciate any questions you would like posed to Augusten be left on my User talk:DavidShankBone page.  --David Shankbone 18:55, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikinews interview with [[Augusten Burroughs]] 

message: I'm spending a day here at the University of Florida library, trying to reference my little articles. I thought it might do some good to put some of them in context by providing a definition of "homosexual" or "lesbian" from these decades, but UF's earliest dictionary from 1953 is in storage. Does anyone have a referenced definition of these terms available? Thanks. --Moni3 20:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting.  I have the old edition of the Oxford English Dictionary (1933) and there's no "homosexual" in it at all.  "Lesbian" is in there, as "of or pertaining to the isle of Lesbos," but no mention of the girl-on-girl meaning.  I tried gay, which included the definition "immoral," but not specifically homosexual. -FisherQueen (Talk) 21:10, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, and now I see that none of that is even remotely useful for what you were asking.  What can I say... I'm easily distracted by large dictionaries. -FisherQueen (Talk) 21:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And while I was looking them up, I noticed that Terminology of homosexuality's list of perjorative terms for gay men is a little... long.  And maybe a little unnecessarily so.  Anyone have any suggestions for useful principals in trimming it down a bit? -FisherQueen (Talk) 21:40, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure I agree with that assessment, my understanding is that gay men have always been more visible and therefore more referenced including self-referenced which, to me, is basic sexism, like lots more slang terms for male genitalia than female. But...if you were determined to eliminate some of this history you might start with expanding some of the basic names and see which ones have a mini-history/etymology that would make the less notable ones less deserving of inclusion. Benjiboi 23:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definitions of "homosexual" and "lesbian" in 1940s and 1950s 

message: Hey, we got published! SX News article about us Dunno where the name Gary came from, though. She didn't even have my real name. :) --AliceJMarkham 08:38, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Awesomeness!!!!!!!!!  Is that you, Alice? Reg never wrote me back after I submitted my questionnaire, so I'd just about given up :)  Pretty good article, wouldn't you say? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 13:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The photo is not me. I was thinking that it might be Dev920 but I'm only guessing. It might be Reg, the author of the article. I'm not sure that I like the first sentence or two because it seems clumsy to me. The rest seems pretty good, though. :) Oh, and this photo is me (if the link works, it was from the same set of photos as the top one in cleavage enhancement). :) --AliceJMarkham 14:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Must be Dev, then, cuz it's sure not the photo I sent in! Beautiful pic of you, Alice! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 14:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that would be me. You should be able to tell by the fact that there's a Bible, a Bhagavad Gita, and a English flag in the background. :P :) But this is definitely the best article on us so far.  Everyoen work really hard so we have something to say in the next one. :DDev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:44, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[SX News]] 

message: Hi, since I've got no response on translation and WikiProject Sexology and sexuality I'm posting the following here as well.
On the German language wikipedia the article showed several connections into the field of LGBT, especially leathermen, Samois, sex-positive feminism and fetish.  
I'm the main author of the featured :de article BDSM.</br>
Following the discussion related to the structural problems in this field I continued the translation of the article under Talk:BDSM/Translation. The translation was discussed on the en talk page and started about a year ago. Later it stalled. Some parts are already included in the main en article (e.g. textfragments, movies, most of the images). I guess it was simply to much for 2 persons...
I'm sure that the translation will help to organize this field of topics and might help to evaluate the the importace of some "fan-topics" which are appearing more frequently during the last months. Being a member of :de Project Sexology and sexuality (Redaktion Sexualität) and :de admin I only know to well how difficult it can be to sort out the possible nonsense appearing on this topic. 
The :de version of the article was designed in part closely following the :en articles discussion on relevance and structure and therefore has solved 90% of the topics on the article's talk page and archive. While its legal chapters are basically eurocentristic (UK, Austria, Switzerland and Germany) it would take only minor efforts to include US backgrounds once it is translated. The historical and most of the other chapters (about 90%) are "internationalized". Both articles' content is highly interchangeable. While the German one features scientific resources the English one has the Chance to structure a rich field of surrounding articles.
We started translating about a year ago and stopped because progress slowed down. 
A request with translations was unsuccessful and I would like to ask you guys if any of you are interested in giving a hand. ;-) I can make my way in English, but as soon as the result needs to be raised to an quasi-scientific level I definitely need native speakers helping to proofread and raise the language level. Is anyone interested in cooperating in this project? I guess this could be good fun and there is a realistic chance to improve the entire field related to this article. Kind Regards. --Nemissimo 21:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've just finished the translation. It would be great if someone could start proofreading it. After the proofreading I will integrate the minor aspects from the old article whitch are not already included and move it.--Nemissimo 15:56, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would be happy to read and copyedit the article for you. Let me know on my talkpage what aspects you think need polishing. Jeffpw 05:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Talk:BDSM/Translation]] 

message: Dr. Merlino is preeminent in the field of psychiatry and homosexuality, and I am going to be doing an interview with him.  Please supply questions on my Talk page.  --David Shankbone 20:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interview with Dr. Joseph Merlino 

message: The article on the Brazilian musician Cazuza nowhere mentions his sexual orientation, yet the article is included in WikiProject LGBT studies, as well as the categories Gay musicians and  LGBT people from Brazil. Discussion at Talk:Cazuza. Can anybody provide the article with a cite or two on this? Thanks. -- Writtenonsand 11:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: These should help. Benjiboi 17:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Cazuza]] needs cite 

message: Working on the translation mentioned above I had a closer look of all related :en articles. There is a major structural problem.
It appeared after User:Saizai has merged practically all articles on homosexual and BDSM Tops and Bottom  into a single article (Top and bottom in sex and BDSM).
In detail these are:
*Top (sex) (talk)
*Bottom (sex) (talk)
*Power top (talk)
*Switch (sexuality) (talk)
*Top (BDSM) (talk)
*Bottom (BDSM) (talk)
*Dominant (BDSM) (talk)
*Submissive (BDSM) (talk)
*Topping from the bottom (talk)
This merger is highly contra productive. The Spanish, Italian, Dutch and German articles clearly show  that at least Switch, Top (BDSM) and Bottom (BDSM) are relevant single lemmata with literature an very single one of them. I really would like to AGF but in this it is really hardto do so. A closer look at the user's edit-history clearly proofs, that he doesn't seem to have edited any BDSM or LGBT related articles before and probably lacks the qualification to judge the longterm impacts of this utter nonsense.
His argument (article's talk) about this being an "good compare-and-contrast article" is absolutely incomprehensible. I would like to see what would happen if I merged capitalism&communism into an "compare-and-contrast article" deleting the original ones only because nobody answered to my merger ideas. Its really strange that there was allegedly no response to the pre-merger suggestions, nevertheless even the smallest amount of thoughtfulness by him should have prevented this. The intention to merge homosexual and BDSM topics in order to "compare-and-contrast" them while deleting the source articles is at least original research if not POV. I have the very strong impression that this mess was created either with good intentions and a clear lack of background knowledge or in order to reduce the number of homosexual and BDSM articles whatever the cost. The merger has been crtized by other editors to on the article's talk but no one seems to be doing anything about it.
I'm not sure what to do. What do you think? --Nemissimo 07:40, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On the face of it, it seems they should be reverted to their original state. I don't have time to read each article one by one at the moment (lunch break from work), but will have at look later today. In the meantime, you can A) unmerge and delete the redirect; B) try to achieve consensus on the individual talk pages, or C) take this to WP:ANI. I find being bold is the best bet, and will happily help you later today. By the way, I will be continuing the rest of the copyediting of the BDSM article today-Friday. I had evening shift last night followed by day shift today, so had to take a sort of long break. Jeffpw 10:22, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thats great. Your job work on the article is really improving it. Thanks for the advice.--Nemissimo 11:51, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

text: An editor with no history of LGBT or BDSM articles does not necessary violate AGF.  My recollection of the articles in question is that they were not well cited and not very clean, frequently referring to related terms ("top" referenced "bottom", "power top", "versatile", even "pitcher" and "catcher") without real discussion of the primary topic.  At the time, it made sense to me that there were more articles than necessary -- top/bottom/switch (the general terms, and separately, the BDSM terms) are perfectly reasonable to combine because they are inherently connected stand a better chance of surviving WP:V than the individual articles do.  If each article can be expanded to meet the quality of the non-English articles, I say "go for it" -- but as they were, I have no problem with the earlier merge. HalJor 16:46, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I would think that some merging would be appropriate Top, Power Top and Dominant would seem fine as would Bottom and Submissive. Switch, I would think would be it's own as it's used it both sexplay and role play (implications for BDSM as well as bisexuals). Benjiboi 18:06, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think that's a good idea. Top (BDSM) (incl. Power Top and Dominant and Topping from the bottom), Bottom (BDSM) (incl. Submissive) and Switch sounds quite reasonable and should bring some system into the structural chaos. Btw. Bottom (BDSM) was already nominated for deletion in the past. The result of the discussion was Keep with an very clear vote, so Top should be clearly safe, I don't know about Switch, but its relevance is so obvious that I simply can't imagine somebody would really consider an deletion... Well I don't know, thing are some times very different over here on :en. ;-) --Nemissimo 22:36, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger of homosexual and BDSM Top and Bottom articles 

message: It took a day, but I transcribed my interview with Evan Wolfson.  I've put it on quite a few articles, but if I am missing any where you think it might belong, it really adds quite a bit to an article to have it there.  You can cut and paste the template (shown at the right) and place it in an article.  I am going to try to get Jay Sekulow to do an interview for the other side of the debate.  --David Shankbone 03:10, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Evan Wolfson]] Wikinews interview 

message: I went to the article same-sex union and it redirected me to LGBT union. I never heard the term LGBT union before. It almost sounds to me like an organization of many like minded people then a bonding of two people. Has anyone heard the term LGBT union before? Should we redirect it back to same-sex union? --Pinkkeith 14:25, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never heard of LGBT union before, and I've been involved in marriage activism for years. I don't know that I've ever seen an article named "same sex union," though. Same sex marriage, yes, that's on my watch list. TechBear 14:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely agree - this is an oddity, and I don't like it.  We should merge.  By the way, I did my interview with Evan Wolfson on this issue and should hopefully--hopefully--transcribe it this weekend.  --  —Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidShankBone (talk • contribs) 14:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm not against merging it with same-sex marriage, but I do think we have to mention that there is a difference between unions and legal marriages. --Pinkkeith 19:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it should be merged with civil union  --David Shankbone 19:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That would seem the logical place. TechBear 19:38, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's an old article - I'm surprised how long it went under the radar.  --David Shankbone 20:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Would amerge then make more sense and have a US-centric section as well as other regions? Benjiboi 19:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[LGBT union]] vs [[same-sex union]] 

message: Hi. I have requested a move for the article Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2007. A.Z. 19:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment. Proposed renaming to Matthew Shepard Act, It's how people call it. Benjiboi 19:25, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would better to discuss the issue here so discussion stays in one place. A.Z. 20:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This was giving the basic info so those interested would know what you were requesting that article to be moved to. Benjiboi 22:33, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I got it. Thank you. A.Z. 23:52, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2007]] 

message: I only posted the first half as the rest needs a lot of editing but it's a decent start. Benjiboi 02:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Dykes on Bikes]] article started 

message: Hey all, both Transsexuality in Iran and TransGeneration articles have be given a semi-protect breather to alleviate an ongoing gender-pronoun edit-war. Any help in improving these articles would be greatly appreciated and whoever makes the most blatantly wonderful edits to each gets their choice of a 1. virtual fruit basket from the non-existent gay cabal or 2. Their username letters turned into a list of fun words. Benjiboi 01:39, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Transsexuality in Iran]] and [[TransGeneration]] article fluffers needed 

message: I've reached the point where I either have to walk away from the article Shemale and its talk page and completely ignore the activities of  or walk away from wikipedia entirely.
He has, amongst other things, accused a new editor, , of being "a single purpose account, now discarded" and claimed that my request for an independant opinion of his comments (above) was canvassing. I'm simply no longer able to assume good faith on the part of this editor. I have reached the point where I believe that if I respond to anything in the shemale talk page, I'll be feeding a troll.
For these reasons, I would beg that at least one person watch the article shemale and its corresponding talk page long term and provide an impartial watch of the goings on there. You don't need to know anything about the subject matter, just assist in making sure that the article is NPOV and reflects the content of verifiable and reliable references. --AliceJMarkham 02:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm watching it and am happy to help keep things in check and if anything isn't addressed soon please just post a note here again. Benjiboi 01:28, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Shemale]]

message: Earlier today all or most of the photos on these lists were deleted by a user claiming his browser didn't read them. I rolled them back, claiming the first was vandalism, since the lists are vandalized frequently in similar ways. He has since rolled them back again. Does anyone know what he's referring to? I see these lists on at least 3 different browsers and they all look fine to me. --Moni3 00:43, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any update? Apparently all images have been deleted without any prior discussion. Is there merit to their removal and reason not to re-add them in any form? Benjiboi 01:58, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oddly, the discussion is on my usertalk page. I don't know if it's legitimate or not. I don't profess to know what I'm doing, like, ever. Perhaps someone can either splain it for the feeble-minded, or get someone to step in and put the pics back up. --Moni3 02:06, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone more tech savvy should probably look at what options are available, a gallery might work but readability issue s are certainly valid. Benjiboi 01:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have this problem with those lists - I ignore it; I tried once to change it to the gallery format - Dev didn't like that ;) What I'll guess is happening is that the user's (viewer's) computer screen size setting is probably somewhere around 800x600 pixels. The majority of users have a slightly higher screen resolution (but when you're on an IBM ThinkPad T60 like I am, the choice is either 800x600 or 1024x780 - you have to decide if you want to squint or have slight quirks for pages not intended to be viewed utilizing the lower, less common resolution setting). The lower screen resolution results in, essentially, a more narrow browser. This narrowing is handled in different ways by different webmasters/webpages: for instance, CNN.com will let me scroll sideways on the page to view the remainer of the webpage that can't bee seen in the narrowed browser, Wikipedia does not utilize the same solution. Some parameter that Wikipedia must have set into their pages forces the Wikipedia webpages to "fit" in the narrowed browser and thus the images, if too large, will end-up stacked above the actual list of people names. Note that right now I can view the list "properly" with the 800x600 screen resolution. ZueJay (talk) 01:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Part of the problem might be that each column in the table has a specified %-width -- the "A" and "B" tables total 105%.  It doesn't look like the columns can be condensed any more unless we move the Reference to the Name column, or maybe two rows per entry?  (While I'm looking at it, why does List of bisexual people have its own page, while there are "Bisexual" people noted in the List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people pages?) HalJor 05:04, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To the second question first i think it's so folks looking specifically for bisexual folks can find them readily rather than searching them out as we don't have the ability to sort out gay vs. bi vs. gay male vs. etc. I think it's a compromise to have a few lists that are maintainable rather than many subdivided ones. I bet there's a trans list somewhere as well. As for the photo formatting I wonder if the whole formatting scheme needs to be re-examined, maybe there's a better way to handle the list? An idea that I'd like to inflict on those addressing the issue, why not list the entire alphabet A-Z at the top of the list (like the "bi" one seems to) and simply send the click to whichever list that redirects to, so if you click on "Q" it goes to that list whether that list happens to be L-Z or N-R or whatever. It that way I think we could have more (smaller) lists and photos could spread out so we could have a gallery of 4-5 photos on each addressing the initial formatting concern. When a list gets to be too long it can then be re-divided with new re-directs updated. The exception would be "S" which seems to need 2 pages on it's own. Benjiboi 13:41, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the alphabet idea - I'm going to try to implement that. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 21:30, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion of all photos on Lists of LGBT people 

message: The List of LGBT characters in modern written fiction has survived afd, and could do with some serious improvement including addition of sources, and working out criteria for inclusion on the list. Any coments would be appreciated on the article talkpage. --BelovedFreak 17:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[List of LGBT characters in modern written fiction]] 

message: If you have questions, ship them over to me.  --David Shankbone 18:43, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interview with [[Augusten Burroughs]] tonight 

message: === Photographs ===
Image:Jim McGreevey by David Shankbone.jpg|Jim McGreevey
Image:Michael Cunningham JB by David Shankbone.jpg|Michael Cunningham
Image:Harvey Milk High School Entrance by David Shankbone.jpg|Harvey Milk High School
Image:A Dyke on a Bike by David Shankbone.jpg|Dyke (lesbian)
Image:Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick by David Shankbone.jpg|Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick
Image:Kwame Anthony Appiah by David Shankbone.jpg|Kwame Anthony Appiah
Image:Staceyann Chin by David Shankbone.jpg|Staceyann Chin
Image:Neil Giuliano by David Shankbone.jpg|Neil Giuliano
Image:Ed Sikov by David Shankbone.jpg|Ed Sikov 
Image:Anthony Bidulka by David Shankbone.jpg|Anthony Bidulka
Image:Jim Carroll by David Shankbone.jpg|Jim Carroll
Image:Jacqueline Woodson by David Shankbone.jpg|Jacqueline Woodson
Image:Augusten Burroughs by David Shankbone.jpg|Augusten Burroughs
Image:Joseph Merlino by David Shankbone.jpg|Joseph Merlino
Upcoming:
=== Interviews ===
*Interview with gay marriage movement founder Evan Wolfson  --David Shankbone 18:41, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  David Shankbone LGBT projects 

message: *Interview with gay marriage movement founder Evan Wolfson  --David Shankbone 18:41, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interviews 

message: If you have questions, ship them over to me.  --David Shankbone 20:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's probably on the list already but current projects as well as future acting and music plans would be nice. Benjiboi 01:36, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: lol - that's actually the one question I don't like to ask.  --David Shankbone 23:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interview with [[RuPaul]] tomorrow 

message: After 572 of my own edits to the article, I've listed the conversion therapy article at FAC. Fireplace 17:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow. Take that! Benjiboi 05:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New FAC listing 

message: I just wanted to let everyone in this project know that the category has been re-nominated for deletion. Follow the category link to get to the CfD discussion, or just click here. I'm not sure if there's a better way for me to notify the project that one of its articles (or categories) is up for deletion, so sorry if this isn't the place to be. --Cheeser1 14:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Homophobia]] 

message: I am proposing some minor but - in my opinion - significant contributions in this extremely important article. Being new in the project and ignorant of details on the way it works, I couldn't get them saved unless they are reviewed by more experienced members. Please visit the talk paige of the article and say what you thinkDesiderius82 15:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed changes on article [[Homosexuality]] 

message: So Barbara Gittings' partner Kay Tobin Lahusen called me tonight, spoke with me for over an hour and told me what to edit in the article, gave me a few directions and leads to follow. I thought that was very cool. She wants me to start an article on her, too. Something to look into doing. She thinks we're doing a bangup job here at WP:LGBT Studies, so rock on, y'all.  --Moni3 05:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Things that are cool 

message: List of LGB people has been put up for deletion AGAIN (though worryingly it looks like it might be deleted), but an interesting question that is being continually raised is whether the word "notable" should be in the title. Personally, I always felt it blindingly obvious that a list of people with articles on Wikipedia would only include the notable, but enough people bring this up that I'm starting to wonder. Should we rename it, or are people on AfDs dumber than the average Wikipedia reader? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 01:02, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the deletionists are dumber, or at least they'll obsess about any little thing to justify the deletion. Adding "notable" seems unnecessary, but if it'll shut them up then by all means add it. TAnthony 02:40, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Glad I'm not the only one who notices the lack of intelligence among some of these homophobic deletionists. I added links to the AfD discussions to two of the deletionists' talk pages, but they subsequently deleted them (which is not allowed). Am I perfectly within reason to add it again? At least the current deletionist David Fuchs isn't quite as dim as Melsaran, but it is still quite painful to see the lack of rationality among these people and to see the same arguments used over and over again. - Cyborg Ninja 03:19, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, let's play nice even if we believe others are not. To stay focussed on the queery, is there any big downside to adding "Notable" to the title besides wonkiness? Benjiboi 03:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Honestly, I'd like to see some kind of action taken against the deletionists who repeatedly ignore previous consensuses on AfD. David Fuchs even went as far as notifying the administration and complaining because I added a section about his AfD on his Talk page, which he subsequently deleted (and I let go). Then he went and made comments on my RfC for Mattisse right after. I had never encountered him before this. He also apparently deleted some of the comments from the AfD according to another user. I haven't brought this up with administration and don't really plan to. I'm just ranting here. Tired of the homophobes and the "Me! Me!" mentality of heterosexuals who feel left out because they don't have their own Straight Pride Parade. - Cyborg Ninja 01:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am a deletionist, and I don't think this list should be deleted. Also, I would totally attend a Straight Pride parade.  Just picture it... little nuclear families, walking sedately in their church clothes, with signs that say "Legally married" and "We made these kids ourselves" and "Don't h8 the str8..." -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 01:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL.  --David Shankbone 01:52, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, finally the campaign (?) is over. --BelovedFreak 22:14, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  LGB people list on AfD again. 

message: I've started a discussion here about the current naming pattern for articles that deal with LGBT issues in a single religion.  That is, should it be "Homosexuality and", or "LGBT issues and"?  Please lend your opinion. --Alynna 00:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  LGBT and religion article naming scheme 

message: Have we done enough this month to justify a newsletter? What's everyone been up to? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 01:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Incidentally, it just ocurred to me that even though I can't use IRC here, I can use the Freenode java script to hang around. Let me know what would be a good time to be in there! Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 01:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there's the SXNews article that we were in, and one new Featured List.  Don't know if that's enough for a full newsletter, though. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 06:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A good idea (to me, anyway) would be to summarize this talk page for the benefit of those who don't regular monitor the page.  The continuing attacks on the list of gay people might interest people, as well as the ...aherm...challenges to the articles on Pederasty. The news letter doesn't simply have to be a list of our accomplishments. It could instead be an actual recitation of noteworthy events, good and bad, that have affected this project in the last month. Jeffpw 09:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that's generally what I do when I write the newsletter, I go through this talkpage and pull out anything the project should know about. Maybe my take on what's noteworthy is different from yours - how about you create this month's newsletter Jeff? :D Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 10:06, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be happy to write the text, using the talk page and the project page as a guide, but somebody else (you or SatyrTN) would have to format it, as I have no technical skills (for the computer, anyway--if any of you need to be cathed or have an IV started, I'm definitely the man for the job!). When does it need to be completed? I am off today and tomorrow. Jeffpw 10:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newsletter 

message: I went to the article same-sex union and it redirected me to LGBT union. I never heard the term LGBT union before. It almost sounds to me like an organization of many like minded people then a bonding of two people. Has anyone heard the term LGBT union before? Should we redirect it back to same-sex union? --Pinkkeith 17:19, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, a lot of article names have been switched to LGBT for the sake of standardization, but this one doesn't make any sense. The subject is same-sex marriage, not the marriages of LGBT people (which often are not same-sex). I say change the name back. Dybryd 17:25, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Huh. Having read over the article, it's really a sort of elaborate disambig page, directing you to a list of other articles like Same-sex marriage, Civil union, domestic partnership, and so on. Most of the information beyond that is duplicated in the target articles. Would this article be more useful as a category, or possibly as a sidebar template? Dybryd 17:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[LGBT union]] vs [[same-sex union]] 

message: I never get the orange 'You have a new message' bar when I receive the LGBT newsletter. I only know it is out when I check my watchlist and see other people have received it. Then I check my talk. Is it just me, or does this happen to someone else? Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 09:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Happened to me too.. --  ALLSTAR  ECHO 09:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's because a bot delivers it. Bot changes to your talk page don't trigger the message bar. Jeffpw 09:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah. Is there anything we could do about it? It's just not helpful to get the newsletter and not know about it... Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 10:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just watchlisted my talk page.  Works fine for me... :)  Kelsied 14:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The newsletter is also breaking the little blue edit links for sections and subsections that may be around the newsletter section on a talk page. I noticed it happening to mine and another's talk page. I moved the newsletter to an archive and all my edit links work now. ----  ALLSTAR  ECHO 05:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Huh.  Interesting.  As a counterpoint, I'm not having any problems with it at all.  Doesn't break links; shows up, drops & hides appropriately; and my watchlist popped it up when it was propagated... Could it be a browser-specific issue?  I'm switching between Opera and IE, and still don't show any errors...  Kelsied 06:01, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newsletter 

message: The former featured article Lawrence v. Texas has, over the past couple of years, been gradually taken over by a persistent subtle anti-gay POV, lost almost all its references, and slid down to B-class. Weasels running wild in a big big way. It's really a disgrace.
And for some inexplicable reason, it wasn't even flagged as being part of the project until I slapped up the template on the talk page!
And by the way, why doesn't the LGBT project template allow you to rate article importance, the way most other project templates do? Or am I just doing it wrong?
Dybryd 02:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because the importance of an article is very subjective and ultimately doesn't really matter, so we never added the parameter to our banner. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 08:11, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Lawrence v. Texas]] BADLY needs attention 

message: Augusten Burroughs on addiction, writing, his family and his new book, which is strangely on the front page now with right-wing Christian Presidential candidate Senator Sam Brownback (Sam Brownback on running for President, gay rights, the Middle East and religion)  --David Shankbone 04:01, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interviews 

message: I just clicked on the "to-do" list on the project page, and it was empty. How is it maintained? Certainly, there are plenty of things to do! Dybryd 03:33, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing that out, Dybryd, I noticed that the other day but forgot to mention it. It is, indeed, broken, but I don't know how to fix it. I know SatyrTN is very technically inclined, though.....:-D Jeffpw 04:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I asked Satyr about the list, his bot is not updating the list at the moment, so until it is, we can just add things manually if we see articles that need work. --BelovedFreak 18:28, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a couple articles that aren't created that probably should be - by someone who knows what they're talking about. I don't know where to put them where they will be seen by an industrious editor or two. Someone point me. --Moni3 18:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Articles not yet created can go to User:Skysmith/Missing topics about LGBT. Also could be in the "requested articles" but of the Full-to-do list if you feel up to editing that! --BelovedFreak 19:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sweet, ok. Btw, I noticed there's a link to "Gay teacher's group" in red on that page, but there is an entry for GLSEN that may cover that. It's the most well-known organization for educators. Should it stay or be taken off? And how would one take it off? --Moni3 19:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea if it's the same. If you are confident that it is, create a redirect from the "Gay teacher's group" page (do you know how to do that?) and then you just edit the missing topics page and remove it from the list. --BelovedFreak 20:18, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They should probably be placed at Wikipedia:Requested articles/Social sciences#Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender.  The bot used to pick those up - and will again when I get my major re-write done (someday). -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 21:48, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  To-do list: empty, or not working? 

message: Will Beback has pointed out that the list of slang and slurs at Terminology of homosexuality is pretty much completely unsourced and contains a lot of nonsense ("anal mechanic" etc.) Fixing the whole thing would be a bit of a project, but sourcing a few terms each would be easy. Anybody want to dive in? I'll claim the term I added myself as a new user, "femme damnée."
Dybryd 22:01, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've sourced the majority but other's eyes and help is appreciated. Benjiboi 21:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terminology of Homosexuality: slang/slur list 

message: Another one for your attention. Bearian 23:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done some wikifying a researching but after the GL retirement article just got wiped away I'm hesitant to bother with doing more. Benjiboi 03:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shane E. Burkett]] 

message: I nominated this one for obvious reasons as stated in the AfD. It had a prod tag on it but I wanted to give people time to figure out how to preserve any history if need be. --  ALLSTAR  ECHO 02:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I brought over info from Queer magazine to Ally Magazine, although some of the details between the 2 contradict each other. I sense someone related to the magazine is doing the editing since User:Hemstrong created both articles, Queer magazine in December 2006 and Ally magazine October 9, 2007 and many of the details look like cut and paste the way they are worded such as "our magazine". --  ALLSTAR  ECHO 03:01, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  FYI: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Queer magazine]] 

message: This article (really an essay) has been nominated for deletion and tagged for rescue.  I have also userfied it in case it is deleted. Bearian 16:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Deletion review is still taking place but we got the latest draft at User:Allstarecho/gay and lesbian retirement for anyone who would like to work or feel to free to comment on talk page. Benjiboi 22:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Gay and lesbian retirement]] 

message: Hi -- Someone just put the  template on the Annie Leibovitz article. I'm not questioning the label -- AL was definitely involved with Susan Sontag -- but rather the appropriateness of using a big project series box on a biographical infobox. It rather overwhelms the article. Moreover, while AL might be a subject of queer/LGBT studies, she's not actually a theorist or scholar in the field. She's, you know, primarily notable for being a photographer. Are there guidelines for the use of this kind of series infobox on a biographical article? --lquilter 22:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoever put that there doesn't appear to be a member of this project. It's my limited understanding that the LGBT tag goes on articles that are core articles in LGBT issues: gay, homosexuality, lesbian, bisexual, queer theory, etc. --Moni3 22:19, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Groovy, I'll take it off. (I am a member of this project, but just realized that while I had never thought to put that template on non-core articles, I wasn't sure if there had been discussion about it or not.) ... They actually put it at the top of the article so it appeared above the infobox!  --lquilter 22:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  biographical articles & LGBT template 

message: Bacon, the founder of modern science, thought by many to have been the most important mind of the second millenium, is widely reported in queer studies works as being well known even in his time as a "sodomite." However, coverage in his article emphasizes pre-queer studies biographies which ignore his sexuality, and heterosexist apologia which present a one-sided view, giving less than short shrift to the important material illustrating his love affairs with his Welsh attendants. The editors "owning" the page revert attempts to correct matters and refuse to discuss. Haiduc 22:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any solid sources for his sodomitism? Good refs are, to me, the best defense. Benjiboi 22:52, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Plenty. If the solidity of sources were properly respected I would not be discussing the matter here. Haiduc 12:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, those aren't solid sources. Your references are to books that no one can actually read to verify source. Then you have 2 links to glbtq.com which isn't hardly considered a reliable source such as, for example, a source from a university or news media or official institution such as a museum, etc. Unless you can provide accessible sources, as in substantiative sources people can actually read online, the argument against you is a fair one and as you are aware, sources/references/proof are part of the foundation of Wikipedia. --  ALLSTAR  ECHO 15:27, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Err..."no one can actually read"? The books can be verified as to what they contain simply by buying them or going to the library. Alternately, you can (as I did) look up reviews of the books to see what reviewers said about them. If the New York Times gives the book a solid review, and mentions the subject that is sourced (in this case Bacon's homosexuality), then I see it as verified, in my eyes. Please remember that WP:RS specifically says In general, the most reliable publications are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. They go on to provide a page to access in order to fact check book sources. My personal feeling is that it is even more reliable, but that's just me. Jeffpw 15:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What I meant there was not being able to actually access the book online, to read it in realtime online, not going out and actually having to buy the book. Sorry for the confusion. --  ALLSTAR  ECHO 19:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: glbtq.com is actually a reliable source.  They always provide references and fact-check all their material. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 16:27, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess so. Although it seems to me that sources of that site is left to the interpretation of its editors.. it's not an open edit site like Wikipedia. But if they provide verifiable sourced for their content, then I reckon that's ok. --  ALLSTAR  ECHO 19:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Should we tag Francis Bacon as part of the LGBT project? Aleta 16:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm. That might be seen as provocative at this point. My feeling is we should wait until the consensus is reached about the disputed material. For the record, after checking the refs myself, I reinserted the material. Jeffpw 16:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Wikipedia:Reliable sources (if I'm reading it right) books are perfectly acceptable even if they don't have online versions. Of course the book itself may not be considered reliable, ones from university presses are good. An online link is very useful, but not essential. --BelovedFreak 10:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Francis Bacon‎]] 

message: Currently we have articles on LGBT rights in nearly 200 countries (e.g., LGBT rights in Fiji).  Given the disparity among U.S. state laws and the rapid changes occurring at the state level, I think it makes sense to add another 50 (e.g., LGBT rights in Oregon).  Because this would involve creating 50 new articles, I wanted to float the idea here first.  Fireplace 15:03, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm concerned about keeping them reasonably updated and accurate. Although one article about US would also seem unwieldy perhaps a parent article with transcluded content into the 50 siblings would make sense and then each sibling has specific sections of significant events/milestones, see also's (for notable players, events with articles) and state-specific links. Benjiboi 16:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Two of these seem to exist already: Gay rights in Utah and LGBT rights in New Hampshire. I created the New Hampshire version; my largest problem was that I had to go to the HRC for a lot of the information, so it hinges heavily on one source. It appears the Utah article has some content issues (see tags at top of article and notes on talk page). If this idea is carried through for all states, we'll also want a List of LGBT rights by state, so 49 more articles to go... ZueJay (talk) 00:51, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, HRC's state-by-state guide is a great resource.  To their very great credit, they include citations to statutes and cases, which we can also cite.  Keeping the articles updated will be a problem, but one that's endemic to wikipedia.  I think the idea would be to put a lot of effort in at the start, and then update them periodically as news stories come out (most of us are probably on this-or-that gay rights email list). Fireplace 01:10, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would suggest looking into already present articles of state LGBT rights organizations so as not to run into an issue with someone coming along and wanting to merge everthing. For instance ('cause I'm from here) there's an article for Equality Mississippi and should an article Gay rights in Mississippi get made, there's the issue of merging and redundant info. --  ALLSTAR  ECHO 01:50, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Maybe a mongo template for the all then? Benjiboi 20:30, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  LGBT rights in (U.S. State) 

message: Has anyone ever heard of this group before? There is no Wiki entry for Watchmen on the Walls so I am thinking of putting one together, mainly to create a resource for landlords who might be asked to rent to them in the future. If anyone has cites I could use, please let me know. Also, would it be acceptable to flag the article as part of this project? TechBear 23:02, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely start article, definitely flag and this article and this search should help. Benjiboi 00:49, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article has been tagged with a class of Start. I will be busy at work for the next two weeks but I'll do what I can to flesh it out. I've never worked with a project before, does anything else need to be done to solicit help on the article? And thanks for the links, Benjiboi. TechBear 01:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not to step on anybody's toes, but I have reclassed it as "Stub". As it currently stands, it is only 4 sentences, 3 of which are a quote, and 1 ref. I see from the talk page that you have made a large "to do" list, so I'm sure it won't remain a stub for long. Jeffpw 07:05, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Watchmen on the Walls 

message: As I'm sure all know, certain articles are more prone to vandalism than others, and an unfortunate amount of vandalism is sexist, homophobic, and racist. I've lately taken to labeling vandalism reverted if it's homophobic, misogynistic, or racist, à la "reverting racist vandalism by 192.168.0.0 to last version by 0.0.861.291". I have an unconfirmed belief that adding the extra 7 to 13 characters is worth it to admins and others scanning down to see problems. And, in the spirit of sharing, thought I'd explain what I'm doing to others who monitor highly-vandalized articles. --lquilter 15:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What a great idea, Lquilter! I do a lot of vandalism reversions, too, and you're right--it will really stand out more than a generic "rv vand" edit summary. Thanks for sharing the idea. Jeffpw 21:46, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  vandalism 

message: I'm back :)   Anyway, I think we need a page on Hein Kleinbooi, he seems to be a fairly prominent writer of the postcolonial queer movement, especially in South Africa. He comes up in several books of literary criticism (e.g. ) and societal studies on postcolonial queer (e.g. ). Anyway, I was hoping to add him to the list of requested articles for this project, but I can't find where that is?Zigzig20s 18:04, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Requested articles/Social Sciences and Philosophy#Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Aleta 02:39, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you.Zigzig20s 02:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're welcome! :) Aleta 02:49, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Hein Kleinbooi]] 

message: In a wtf moment I had reading the news, we mught have to tag the character and the books now. Read the news story here. And see if that makes sense to you... --Moni3 08:30, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, that was unexpected. Yeah, we'd better tag him. Gosh, Dumbledore... Godammit, when is she going to tell us the truth about Remus and Sirius?! Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 08:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Already done. ;) Not so sure about tagging the books themselves though.--  ALLSTAR  ECHO 09:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Y'all are so fast! I just saw this on the BBC news site, and came here to check! hehehhehehe! Jeffpw 10:05, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow! I found out at the Spanish LGBT project. I was rooting for Sirius and Remus too! (Even though I love Tonks...) No one saw THAT coming, did they? Good for Rowling! Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 17:51, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I though Minerva McGonagall made much more sense. I can see picking her up in a bar somewhere. I bet she's a cat in bed...--Moni3 19:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: XDDDDDD Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 01:08, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I heard about Albus (I'll call him Albie now) here first, and promptly blogged it. I would have gone for Minerva too. Ahem. I think it made sense - it was clear that Albus had a very intense relationship with whatsisface in the last book. --lquilter 22:22, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Albus Dumbledore]] 

message: It's been brought to my attention recently that Socrates has a project banner, but no longer mentions anything about sexuality and isn't in any of the cats associated with the project.  If anyone cares to take a crack at it? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 17:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's terribly highbrow for my trailer trash leanings but for what it's worth; try this, this and at least the information here. Benjiboi 18:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Known Pederast - Haiduc, over to you. :) Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Socrates 

message: Lara bran is back to messing with Template:LGBT. Please make sure you've got the template on your watchlist. --  ALLSTAR  ECHO 16:42, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Allstarecho seems to have decided to edit war with me over this template  which comes as something of a surprise. I don't know what issues he has with Lara Bran but part of their edit seemed totally correct (it certainly isn't vandalism) - my recollections is that we had a large discussion about 6 months ago and agreed that intersexuality fell outside the scope of this project. Its is a clinical condition affecting the development of genitals etc. and has nothing to do with sexual orientation or gender idenitity. As a result of those discussions, Dev and I took intersexuality and other related articles out of the scope of the project (see ). It seems that these have crept back - Satyr retagged Intersexuality this month  and it was added back to Template:LGBT sidebar by Photouploaded a few days ago . It seems to me that nothing has changed and there is no consensus for this dramatic re-expansion of our scope. I realise that I'm far less active around here these days than I used to be but I do read this page and haven't seen any discussion about this. Anyone know what's going on? WjBscribe 17:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alison has caught me up on some issues with Lara bran so I now see why Allstarecho may have been overzealous. Still the project scope questions may need to be addressed again... WjBscribe 17:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't overzealous. There's a discussion going on above about the contents of the template, specifically Intersexuality and I just think it inappropriate to make changes to the template during a consensus discussion about the content of the very same template. Lara bran has been a consistent changer of the template, even after being asked to stop by several people including an admin, Alison. I simply once again reverted his edits he made today - because he's been asked, begged and warned to leave it alone while discussion was taking place. Then you came along and decided to further remove content - which I agree it should be removed, but not until consensus discussion has been closed. I apologize if it seems I was warring with you (1 revert is hardly war). Many of us are just right out annoyed that people want to make changes to a project's templates without even discussing them. Thanks for bringing it here so we can all work this issue out. --  ALLSTAR  ECHO 19:04, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And the consensus discussion going on that I keep referring to is right here on this very page above but here's a link to it: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies#Template:LGBT sidebar --  ALLSTAR  ECHO 19:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

text: OK, (1) "Then you came along and decided to further remove content - which I agree it should be removed, but not until consensus discussion has been closed" - Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. if you don't disagree with an edit, don't revert it. (2) "Many of us are just right out annoyed that people want to make changes to a project's templates without even discussing them. Thanks for bringing it here so we can all work this issue out." - last time I checked, Wikiprojects did not own any templates and I was still a member of this project (hence my recollection of previous discussions on this matter), as far as I know neither of those things have changed. Satyr has clarified that he readded the project template to Talk:Intersexuality in error , so as far as I know no one is arguing that Intersexuality belongs in the scope of this Wikiproject or in . WjBscribe 19:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Yikes (enter stage left with soapbox). Well, IMHO, we certainly need to revisit these issues. Just as the LGBT tag doesn't mean someone IS LGBT it means that the article is of interest to this project. In the same manner that many of our predecessors were demonized and cast into societies corners which started us collaborating as freaks in the first place, intersex and bisexual people have always been sometimes visible, sometimes absent members of our varied and marginalized communities. GLBTI is becoming more widely used as Intersex people have helped educate LGBT and mainstream communities on their issues. And just as StaceyAnn Chin noted that many people in her native country mistakenly assume gay equals child-molesting we need to acknowledge and embrace that we face an educational challenge to help explain gender and sexuality differences whenever appropriate and that the same issues that affect gays and lesbians can also impact bisexuals and the same issues that impact transgender people can also impact intersex people. It wasn't too long ago that our national LGBT groups had to be taught to embrace not just gay but also "lesbian", then "bisexual" and still "transgender". Once we can help mainstream society get over either bisexual or transgender issues of not mattering what gender you love but that you do love will also impact all of us. We are in the same boat here and every gain we make for one group helps dismantle the walls of ignorance that keeps all groups from equality in matters of human rights. Benjiboi 21:09, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  {{tl|LGBT sidebar}} 

message: Sexual Orientation Is Genetic in Worms --  ALLSTAR  ECHO 06:06, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seen this? 

message: For the record, a potential guideline on "bisexuality" has been proposed by Dev:
# That person identifies as bisexual, regardless of relationships, ie Billie Joe Armstrong.
# A person has had documented, notable relationships with both sexes, such as Marlon Brando.
# A person has been alleged, with evidence, by reliable sources to be, or have been, in a relationship with both sexes, ie Lord Byron and Alfred Kinsey.
This might be expanded into a guideline on sexuality:
# A person identifies as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender, regardless of relationships or apparent gender, ie Billie Joe Armstrong.
# A person has had documented, notable relationships with their same sex or with both sexes, such as Marlon Brando.
# Reliable sources allege the person to be, or have been, in relationships with their same sex or with both sexes, ie Lord Byron and Alfred Kinsey.
Comments? As an aside, transgender is only in the first option, which might be alright.  Or the other two might need to be expanded.  And "intersexuality" isn't addressed at all :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 22:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As it shouldn't be. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject discussion of a guideline on "bisexuality"/"sexuality" 

message: Certain parties have been removing the LGBT category and project tags from the articles on these two seasonal friends of Dorothy, despite reliable sourced evidence acknowledging the participative bisexuality (at various times) of both. Is there anything that can done about this? Action and more eyes needed.Mymymymymy 02:48, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There have already been discussions on the appropriate talk pages: Talk:Malcolm X#Sexuality and several places on Talk:Yasser Arafat.  On both pages consensus is that neither of them are gay or bisexual.  If reliable sources can be found stating their orientations, we'll consider the project tag.  Otherwise, leave it off. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 03:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Malcolm X]], [[Yasser Arafat]], and outing truth 

message: I recently had a question posted to my talk page, and responded with some (IMHO) good answers.  The response I got back was:
:Fair enough I guess. Smithers is my random character clean up project of the month so I'm going to be cleaning up the article and possibly taking a stab at GA status, so I don't suppose you or anyone in the LGBT project would be willing to help? -- Scorpion0422
Anyone interested in working on Waylon Smithers? Just to keep the good name of the project alive - no pressure or anything! :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Smithers! Bring me the bear! I might see if there's anything I can do. --Moni3 02:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ummm... I'll try.  I can't really do much, 'cause I ain't real good at this, but I can poke away at spelling and stuff... Lychosis T/C 02:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I'll do some but it'll have to wait a day or so. Benjiboi 02:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

text: The Simpsons episode is Bart's Inner Child. Benjiboi 20:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I was making sure the movie reference was right. Maurice is a very gay film, and would illustrate Smithers' familiarity with it. --Moni3 11:43, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Waylon Smithers 

message: I moved this here from Portal talk:LGBT for User:Dia^ for more attention and response --  ALLSTAR  ECHO 13:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've replied on the user's talk page. Thanks for finding that, AllStarEcho! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 17:41, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categorization Help 

message: I was wondering if anyone was from North Carolina, in which case you could perhaps e-mail Randall Kenan and ask if you can take a picture of him. That reminds me of our attempt to take a picture of David Leavitt - when did he say he would be back in Florida for a picture?Zigzig20s 02:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: David Leavitt was taking a fall semester sabbatical. I assume he'll be back in January. Wanna remind me then and I can ask again? --Moni3 04:10, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll try to.Zigzig20s 04:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you think he's still at UNC/Chapel Hill?  I'll be in NC from late Jan thru late Apr.  Remind me when you remind Moni3 =) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 05:06, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Randall Kenan]] - anyone from North Carolina?