Talk:Alawites

message: :The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 19:56, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Alawi →  –
This article was moved to "Alawi" some time back for some shaky reasons. Now with all the media attention, "Alawite" seems to in most common use. FunkMonk (talk) 20:06, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Page moved as requested, along with this talk page. I've also manually moved a couple of archive pages - if I've missed any let me know.  An optimist on the run!  20:46, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move 4

message: Never heard of the term 'ghulat' before but an experienced editor is willing to go to the 3RR limit to keep the category off the article.  This Jerusalem Post article clearly states that other Shia have called the Alawites religion 'extremist' which in Arabic is 'ghulat'.  Alatari (talk) 21:59, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: And yet again, you answered your own question. "Other Shia have called" means it is their POV. Just like (by the POV of some groups) non-Muslims are infidels, Protestants are heretics, atheists are apostates, and so on. Get it? FunkMonk (talk) 22:47, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

text: No, the page that matters is the category page, as no one is arguing that the term cannot be mentioned in this article. FunkMonk (talk) 23:49, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Then add that they are viewed as such by some Shias, no one is stopping you, but make clear that it is controversial. Remember, there are different rules for POV issues that affect live persons. A libellous fringe claim should not be stated as fact, but as opinion. In any case, it is a separate issue from the category. FunkMonk (talk) 23:56, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Yes. Alawites are not "long dead", you know. We are very careful with our wording on other religious and ethnic group articles on Wikipedia. I don't see why this one should be an exception. I guess the problem is that there are no actual Alawites on Wikipedia, but representatives of most other groups (who keep an eye out on libellous info on their respective pages). So people think they can just add whatever they want here, without keeping POV in mind. FunkMonk (talk) 00:10, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Again, no one mentioned censorship. Only that POV should not be presented as fact. Labelling someone as "extremists" is POV by default. The "extremists" hardly see themselves as such. FunkMonk (talk) 00:27, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Yet again, it is still POV to label someone an extremist. That should be pretty obvious. To Catholics, Protestants are extremists. To Jews, Christians are extremists. To Sunnis, Shias are extremists. Why should we be less careful with the POV here than on other pages? We can mention the accusation, but simply not state it as fact. Even Wahhabism is not called "extremism" on Wikipedia, only that some have claimed it to be so. Let's not have double standards, please. FunkMonk (talk) 00:19, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Don't confuse the literal translation of the term with its meaning/usage. The term is commonly (and casually) being used in the scholarly literature to describe and categorize the Alawaites. We should just follow suit. To hide or ignore such terms would be a POV. Wiqi(55) 00:30, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: And I repeat for the fourth time, no one is stating it should not be mentioned, simply that it should be mentioned as the opinion/POV of a specific group (as in some Shias). FunkMonk (talk) 01:08, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  But it is the view of experts of Shia Islam, like Heinz Halm. Wiqi(55) 01:27, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: He is simply parroting what some Shia scholars say. It is not objective terminology. FunkMonk (talk) 01:31, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's just original research on your part (and probably due to you not understanding what "ghulat" means). Re-read the parts I quoted above. Wiqi(55) 01:37, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol. Ok. So who invented the term? This German guy, or some Shia theologians? If the latter, then I'm sorry to say, it's POV. FunkMonk (talk) 02:40, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Most likely by medieval Arabic historians. The term is now used by modern historians to describe those minority groups who "exaggerated" their veneration of Ali (et al) to the extant of considering him God or an incarnation of God. BTW, "exaggerators" is also one literal meaning of "ghulat", not just "extremists". Now beside "ghulat", I can't think of any other term that is a) common in the scholarly literature, and b) have been used to describe/categorize these distinctive minorities and their beliefs. Do you have any suggestions? Wiqi(55) 03:59, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

text: I watched the Dan Snow programme on Syria the other night and theres a view expressed there  by a very extreme Sunni labelling the Alawites as all kinds of evil   47:44 - 50:00 ))   - I think labels put on the Alawites  by theological opponents should certainly be treated with care to say the least - (I dont accept at all the Alawite woman in the previous discussion was demonising - that was just testimony about misogynistic implications of certain beliefs imo)Sayerslle (talk) 00:47, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a usage in a Jerusalem paper.  Alatari (talk) 01:13, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Reuters doesn't use 'ghulat' or 'extremist' but instead says they're beliefs differ sharply from traditional Islam and to call them an offshoot of Shi'ism is like calling Christianity an offshoot of Judaism Alatari (talk) 01:17, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

text: This is the best evidence you have provided.  A Wikipedia words to watch that has had the terms 'extremist' in there since 2010 and earlier.  Still a major source for the article uses the term 'ghulat' and in this case the term is to be described and mentioned in the article.  Alatari (talk) 18:37, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Since Shias are the ones who use the word "Ghulat", there have not been such massacres, since both groups have historically been oppressed as minoritis/heretics themselves, and are therefore allied by necessity. That does not make the term less offensive. FunkMonk (talk) 01:25, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Just PROVE that the term is offensive.  All we have is your constant decrying that it is an offensive term but no sources.  People come here to read about what is an Alawite who have no prior knowledge of the terms and the regional matters or even who Ali is.  They have no idea that ghulat is an offensive term unless it is illustrated for them in some emotionally wrenching manor.  It's just another word to me with no emotional meaning.  The connotations come from some hate crime usage of the term.  Alatari (talk) 18:24, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

text: I'm having trouble finding a consistent definition for the term 'ghulat'.  In some flash cards it's meaning is 'mistake' in other sources it is 'one who went too far' which are two innocuous meanings.  How has 'ghulat' taken on a further more sinister connotation?  Alatari (talk) 18:39, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ghulat 

message: The Encyclopedia of Islam has an article on the Alawites written by Heinz Halm. Here is the first paragraph:
NUSAYRIYYA, a Shīʿī sect widely dispersed in western Syria and in the south-east of present day Turkey; the only branch of extreme (ghuluww) Kūfan Shīʿism which has survived into the contemporary period.
Also here is the first line of the "Doctrines" section:
As ghulat, the Nusayriyya venerate Ali b. Abi Talib as supreme and eternal God (al-ilāh al-aʿẓam, al-qadīm al-azal).
It is obvious that the term "ghulat" is an important distinction here that should not be ignored. It is also being used to describe their beliefs from an academic/historical perspective.
As a side comment on the previous discussion, Halm also has this to say on their beliefs concerning women:
He who recognises the identity of the maʿnā is saved and may escape from metempsychosis; his soul, released from the body and transformed into a star, resumes its journey back across the seven heavens to arrive at the ultimate objective (ghāya), sc. contemplation (muʿāyana) of the divine light. Women are excluded from this because they are born of the sins of devils; for this reason, they are not entitled to participate in the rites of men (Sulaymān, Bākūra, 61). The popular religion of the Nusayriyya, especially that of women, retains traces of paganism (veneration of high places, of springs, of green trees). (p. 148)
Wiqi(55) 00:14, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yet again, it is still POV to label someone an extremist. That should be pretty obvious. To Catholics, Protestants are extremists. To Jews, Christians are extremists. To Sunnis, Shias are extremists. Why should we be less careful with the POV here than on other pages? We can mention the accusation, but simply not state it as fact. Even Wahhabism is not called "extremism" on Wikipedia, only that some have claimed it to be so. Let's not have double standards, please. FunkMonk (talk) 00:19, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Don't confuse the literal translation of the term with its meaning/usage. The term is commonly (and casually) being used in the scholarly literature to describe and categorize the Alawaites. We should just follow suit. To hide or ignore such terms would be a POV. Wiqi(55) 00:30, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: And I repeat for the fourth time, no one is stating it should not be mentioned, simply that it should be mentioned as the opinion/POV of a specific group (as in some Shias). FunkMonk (talk) 01:08, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  But it is the view of experts of Shia Islam, like Heinz Halm. Wiqi(55) 01:27, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: He is simply parroting what some Shia scholars say. It is not objective terminology. FunkMonk (talk) 01:31, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's just original research on your part (and probably due to you not understanding what "ghulat" means). Re-read the parts I quoted above. Wiqi(55) 01:37, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol. Ok. So who invented the term? This German guy, or some Shia theologians? If the latter, then I'm sorry to say, it's POV. FunkMonk (talk) 02:40, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Most likely by medieval Arabic historians. The term is now used by modern historians to describe those minority groups who "exaggerated" their veneration of Ali (et al) to the extant of considering him God or an incarnation of God. BTW, "exaggerators" is also one literal meaning of "ghulat", not just "extremists". Now beside "ghulat", I can't think of any other term that is a) common in the scholarly literature, and b) have been used to describe/categorize these distinctive minorities and their beliefs. Do you have any suggestions? Wiqi(55) 03:59, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

text: I watched the Dan Snow programme on Syria the other night and theres a view expressed there  by a very extreme Sunni labelling the Alawites as all kinds of evil   47:44 - 50:00 ))   - I think labels put on the Alawites  by theological opponents should certainly be treated with care to say the least - (I dont accept at all the Alawite woman in the previous discussion was demonising - that was just testimony about misogynistic implications of certain beliefs imo)Sayerslle (talk) 00:47, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a usage in a Jerusalem paper.  Alatari (talk) 01:13, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Reuters doesn't use 'ghulat' or 'extremist' but instead says they're beliefs differ sharply from traditional Islam and to call them an offshoot of Shi'ism is like calling Christianity an offshoot of Judaism Alatari (talk) 01:17, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

text: This is the best evidence you have provided.  A Wikipedia words to watch that has had the terms 'extremist' in there since 2010 and earlier.  Still a major source for the article uses the term 'ghulat' and in this case the term is to be described and mentioned in the article.  Alatari (talk) 18:37, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another source 

message: The discussion and vote is taking place here .
I changed my vote to delete per Johnlambert's opinion it can be misused on Wikipedia.  As for this article and the ghulat article I think the word ghulat should be added back to the article per the authority of Moosa and the usage in other sources.  If it is offensive to the Nusairis then Funkmonk can provide sources as to why it is a hurtful pejorative term. Alatari (talk) 00:55, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Since Shias are the ones who use the word "Ghulat", there have not been such massacres, since both groups have historically been oppressed as minoritis/heretics themselves, and are therefore allied by necessity. That does not make the term less offensive. FunkMonk (talk) 01:25, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Just PROVE that the term is offensive.  All we have is your constant decrying that it is an offensive term but no sources.  People come here to read about what is an Alawite who have no prior knowledge of the terms and the regional matters or even who Ali is.  They have no idea that ghulat is an offensive term unless it is illustrated for them in some emotionally wrenching manor.  It's just another word to me with no emotional meaning.  The connotations come from some hate crime usage of the term.  Alatari (talk) 18:24, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm having trouble finding a consistent definition for the term 'ghulat'.  In some flash cards it's meaning is 'mistake' in other sources it is 'one who went too far' which are two innocuous meanings.  How has 'ghulat' taken on a further more sinister connotation?  Alatari (talk) 18:39, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: deletion nomination of the category ghulat

message: I've repaired most of the grammar issues. Can someone just make sure they're okay? 19:25, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar Issues 

message: Aside from living in a specific area of Syria, I can't see what cultural differences this group has....is it ethnicity or theological differences? Do they have a smaller range of occupations, food or clothing differences? Specific stories they tell about their culture or different mosques? In a completely neutral way, what "marks" Alawites as different from the majority culture of Syrian? This entry is a bit of an outline of modern Alawite integration into Syrian population but doesn't say much about Alawite "culture". 69.125.134.86 (talk) 12:58, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The differences are religious, not cultural. But there are a few other slight differences apart from religion. FunkMonk (talk) 18:59, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cultural differences? 

message: The section names Heterodox, Orthodox, are not fitting in Wikipedia since Wikipedia takes no religious stance about what is what. I propose either deleting the section headings, or renaming them to something that does not give the impression that Wikipedia have an opinion. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 10:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, removed. FunkMonk (talk) 13:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Propose section renames/deletes

message: I will remove the last section about alawis being slaughtered by Ali, this story is obviously aimed to discredit alawis, the source is...just a guy on the internet with his blog. I find it hard to believe there is absoutely nothing on that webpage about their true belief. I don't think it's that hard to find. I also think Saudi should nor be allowed to write on wikipedia until they acknowledge the existence of logicKlinfran (talk) 16:13, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  remove 

message: Our Shia Sheikh told us multiple times that Bashar al Asad is a kafir and Alawites are not Shia Muslims at all because they believe in reincarnation and drink alcohol, among many things. They also don't pray five times a day. He also pointed out that when they tried to convert Alawites to Islam, Bashar forbid of building new Shia mosques in Syria and even went after them, Twelvers. Categorizing Alawites as Shias is very debatable.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.57.129 (talk) 17:04, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Where is the "anti-Tvelvwer propaganda"? And no, Alawites do not worship Bashar al-Assad. Furthermore, I believe Khomeini and Musa Sadr had just a wee bit more credibility than your local sheikh. FunkMonk (talk) 11:53, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: There was a Lebanese (Shi'a) ayatollah who declared the Alawis followers of Islam, which might lead some to think that the Alawites are Shi'ite. They also are, according to the article in the Eliade/Jones Encyclopedia of Religion, rather pronouncedly sympathetic to the Shi'ites, which may provide reason for additional confusion. But saying that they are sympathetic to Shi'ites, and perhaps have some vaguely similar beliefs, is not quite the same thing as saying they are Shi'ites. John Carter (talk) 17:25, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It was Musa Sadr (not an Ayatollah). Alawites are no doubt a Shia offshoot. What is contested by some is whether they've ceased being Shias. Most Shia authorities consider them Shias. But they are not Twelvers. FunkMonk (talk) 17:38, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you mujtahid for your input about Alawites. If they would be "no doubt a Shia offshoot", nobody would have to declare them as such or there would be no questioning about it. They are NOT Shia, Alawism is a system of belief in its own. No Shia believes that we were starts who fell fro mthe night sky, that we can reincarnate and other non-Islamic nonsense. They are NOT Shias.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.162.113.76 (talk) 22:58, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alawites are Shia? 

message: I see the part about Khomeini's recognition was removed. It was in the source used at one point, found through Google Books. Perhaps it was replaced in the meantime, but if found, the content should be put back. FunkMonk (talk) 20:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Here it is: http://books.google.dk/books?id=vxrqo2q5jFQC&pg=PA23&dq=khomeini+alawites&hl=da&sa=X&ei=JImjUorJDcbgyQH8_4CQBQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=khomeini%20alawites&f=false FunkMonk (talk) 20:48, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: FunkMonk, I took it out through these edits. The article had 5 citations for this statement: "Alawites ...have been recognized as [Twelver Shi'tes] by Shi'ite authorities such as Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini and the prominent Lebanese Shi'ite cleric Musa al-Sadr." When I went through each of the citations there was nothing of the sort in them, except for one which said that Sadr had recognized them in this way. There was no mention of Khomeini or any other Shia authorities. I'd like to AGF, but frankly this was mis-use of citations in a major way. (In passing I would add that I'm also highly dubious of the existing offline Arabic source citations that are claimed to support the "Alawites-are-just-orthodox-Muslims" POV) As far as the source you refer to is concerned, I think it is questionable as a WP:RS on this. The Strategic Studies Institute is closely associated with the US military and the Carlysle Group. What was said fits the "Shia crescent" agenda popular in US military circles at the time of its publication (2005). I think it highly unlikely that Khomeini took this religious view. I suspect that the author has drawn conclusions from the political closeness between Iran and the Alawites and extrapolated that into the religious sphere. But that's a guess. If you really want to reinstate the statement about Khomeini with that source I won't revert. DeCausa (talk) 22:26, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll see~if I can find another source stating the same. FunkMonk (talk) 22:41, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. The first source is SSI too, I can't read the third, but the second is clear enough. I was wrong! DeCausa (talk) 23:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Khomeini 

message: Are Alawites just like the druze in that they reject converts or are they like the bohras and nizaris? do they accept convers?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.9.168.242 (talk) 07:15, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: They believe that you have to be "born or reincarnated" as an Alawite. They don't accept reverts. They barely even discuss their belief system in public. I'm a Twelver Shia and when I talk to them I realized that they are of Ismaili branch of Shia Islam, not Twelver for sure. I posted above why they aren't Twelvers. All what's there I gathered from them themselves. Reincarnation, Imam Ali (as) as a deity etc. it has nothing to do with the Twelver Shia Islam, they are from Ismailis.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.57.129 (talk) 07:52, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conversion to Alawite religion 

message: What do the last two sentences of the lede have to do with the article?  Probably some nuance that escapes me.  "Since Hafez al-Assad took power in 1970, the government has been dominated by a political elite led by the secular Al-Assad family. During the Islamic uprising in Syria during the 1970s and 1980s the establishment came under pressure, and the conflict continues as part of the Syrian civil war."  --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 04:25, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a summary of the current situation for the Alawites in Syria. And what is "Hassad"? FunkMonk (talk) 11:51, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "secular al-Hassad family" 

message: There is tendency among people in this article to present alawites as extremists. Even tough they are actually moderate in comparison with many orthodox sunni variations. Heterodoxy is not synonymous with extremism.  
The article must avoid stating blindly the possible negative variations of alawite thought, like for example the belief "women have no souls"  , even if existing (which can be questioned), religions are known for presenting philosophical differentiations inside the community itself. Hence the alawite community may present differentiations of thought within it. An alwite leader may,for example disagree from other alawite leader, and the community can present differentiations within it. Different interpretation are known among religions, specially one so open to innovation as the alawites.
The people who wrote this article most likely love demonizing alawites as "evil heretics", Wikipedia should not allow the demonization of an ethny. The ultra-orthodox sunnis and their supporters are the real extremists, and this is quite obvious, just look at their actions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.9.201.69 (talk) 5:13 am, Today (UTC+1) 
:It certainly needs more attribution, in the vein of "the Israeli historian XXX states that", etc. Now, such claims are stated as facts, which is incorrect, as none of them have ever been confirmed by Alawites, and much of it is based on mere hearsay. Even the claims of some weird Finnish convert to Sunni Islam are taken at face value. FunkMonk (talk) 04:18, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avoid demonization 

message: (1) Should the lead to the Alawites article include a summary of the section of the article entitled "Beliefs"? 
(2) If "yes", should that summary be as follows:
 DeCausa (talk) 08:03, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This RfC is about the content of the lead not the Beliefs section. The lead currently has no description of the Beliefs section. If you want to make changes to the Beliefs section, please propose them elsewhere. DeCausa (talk) 19:48, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: You may have noticed that I already did. Inn any case, yes, even the lead should use cautionary language. FunkMonk (talk) 20:04, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: You have dismissed even my general proposal for no apparent reason, so writing a text would be premature. FunkMonk (talk) 14:56, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: That's ridiculously obstructive and non-constructive. I've lost all patience with you and have gone ahead and added it to the lead.DeCausa (talk) 17:34, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Your patience has little relevancy, as I'm not here to please you. What matters is consensus, and we're not getting any comments so far, so I re-added the request tag. FunkMonk (talk) 09:32, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The text has been there for 4 months now without challenge, so per WP:EDITCONSENSUS this thread is concluded I believe. DeCausa (talk) 18:38, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Comment 

message: Numerous IPs keep attempting to add info to the article stating how Alawites groups have Kurdish origins. The text cited does not back up this claim. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 15:10, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It is of course possible that some do, though most certainly don't, but it would need solid sourcing. FunkMonk (talk) 15:17, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your response. I've read the book which the IP says backs his claim. It does not say the Alawites are from Kurds. It only says that some had lived in Singar and fought against the Kurds. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 15:24, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: IP's claims of Kurdish origins of Alawites

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Alawites. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100514032159/http://menassat.com:80/?q=en/news-articles/5210-tripoli-4 to http://menassat.com/?q=en%2Fnews-articles%2F5210-tripoli-4
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 04:40, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There was a long and sourced fragment completely removed from article. Some people try their best to "prove" that Alawites are Twelver Shia Muslims while they themselves do not consider themselves as such and hold VERY distinct system of belief than mainstream Shia Islam. Removed fragment:
"The tenth-century Twelver heresiographer Abu Muhammad al-Hassan ibn Musa al-Nawbakhti claimed the Alawi founder propagated the un-Islamic belief of the transmigration of souls and permitted homosexual relations. Jurists such as the eleventh-century scholar Muhammad bin al-Hassan al-Tusi accused the Alawis of heresy and cursed them for permitting what was forbidden. In 1834 Twelvers raised troops for the Ottomans to quash an Alawi revolt. 
When European travelers began visiting Syria in the eighteenth century, Alawis informed them they were Christians. To prevent missionaries from claiming them as lost Christians, the Ottomans asserted they were Muslims. Mosques were built. But the Alawis rejected these attempts of integration into the Islamic community. When the French ruled Syria, they too tried to incorporate them into the Islamic fold. Twelver judges were imported to establish courts. But the Alawis rebuffed them as well. In 1948, Alawi students went to the Twelver center of Najaf, Iraq to learn their doctrines. But after being ridiculed and scorned, most quickly returned home.
In the 1960s, Alawis officers took power in Syria. But they did not establish cordial ties with Iran. Instead, it was the Iran-Iraq war that proved a turning point. But religious ties between the Alawis and Twelvers were as strained as ever. A 1985 American diplomatic cable noted that Twelver scholars “view the Alawis as heretical and despicable.” Indicative of the abyss between them, Twelvers sought to proselytize among the Alawis. Six Twelver preachers were arrested for doing so in 1996."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.19.103.245 (talk) 11:17, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourced fragment that was removed  

message: The area is disputed, a private person can't determine if it should be Lebanon or Israel. Therefore, I suggest to just write "Golan Hights". Any objection? Israelly (talk) 20:38, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Since when was the UN a "private person"? No one but Israel considers it Israeli. FunkMonk (talk) 21:03, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the population in the Golan Hights 

message: "The region was home to a mostly-rural, heterogeneous population. The landowning families and 80 percent of the population of the port city of Latakia were Sunni Muslim; however, in rural areas 62 percent of the population were Alawite peasants. There was considerable Alawite separatist sentiment in the region,[51] evidenced by a 1936 letter signed by 80 Alawi leaders addressed to the French Prime Minister which said that the "Alawite people rejected attachment to Syria and wished to stay under French protection". Among the signatories was Sulayman Ali al-Assad, father of Hafez al-Assad.[51] Even during this time of increased Alawite rights, the situation was still so bad for the group that many females had to leave their homes to work for urban Sunnis - many becoming mistresses to their employers - which is why it was estimated that 25% of all Alawite children in the 1930s and 40s had Sunni fathers.[52] " — Preceding unsigned comment added by عراف الجبل (talk • contribs) 11:29, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: You were warned, yet you removed the info again. Your claim of "unreal fact" is baseless. The info is provided by a reliable publisher and a scholar — you would do well to click the wikilinks in the reference. I will now report you to be blocked from editing. --118.222.229.61 (talk) 10:20, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

text: You have been warned mutiple times to stop removing well cited content just because it offends you as an Alawite. That is no legitimate excuse for removing content. You do not own Wiki and Wiki doesn't exist to make you feel good about yourself. I will now refer our case to DR because i don't see that you will ever accept proper Wiki editing protocol. --118.222.229.61 (talk) 04:15, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

text: From now on please add your comments to the Alawite article talk page under offensive words section. I can understand your hurt feelings: you are an Alawite who is offended by a reliable source that may imply you have a Sunni grandfather. But you have offered no real evidence against the reference other than your biased personal opinion about what is fact and fiction. Wiki doesn't work like that. Please stop your vandalism until you can produce better excuses. --118.222.229.61 (talk) 09:50, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

text: I don't understand what you are agreeing with يوسف عاشق الجبل about, considering that he gave no reason for his disapproval other than arguing that it was offensive and he somehow inherently knew it was false. So, if you could clarify, are you agreeing with his view that it should be removed because it's offensive, or do you agree with his unsubstantiated  claim that it is false? On the other hand, my reason for inclusion is that it is reliably sourced and relevant to the section because it strikingly emphasises just how poverty-stricken and lowly the Alawites were in that era. --118.222.229.61 (talk) 06:45, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

text: Okay, so the source reads: Daughters went off at the age of seven or eight years to work as domestics for urban Sunni Arabs. Because many of them also ended up as mistresses (one estimate holds that a quarter of all Alawi children in the 1930s and 1940s had Sunni fathers)... Therefore, i agree that the 25% section is UNDUE since it is only according to "one estimate"; i don't think it would be undue to retain the "many becoming mistresses to their employers" section of the edit, since there is no hint that this is a single or tiny minority view. What are your thoughts? --118.222.229.61 (talk) 00:34, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Looking forward to your reply. --118.222.229.61 (talk) 12:29, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Offensive words 

message: I comment here as 118.222.229.61 has requested a third opinion . First of all, you both (the IP and يوسف عاشق الجبل) need to change behavior. You have both violated WP:3RR and could not be blocked. No, neither the adding or the removal of the debated text was "vandalism", so neither of you had any legitimate reason to edit war as you did. I have requested temporary protection for the article.
As for the matter of the dispute, I am inclined to agree with يوسف عاشق الجبل. I see no good reason why this text is WP:DUE here. Yes, it is sourced, but being sourced is not always enough. At the very least, the onus is on the IP to argue for why the text belongs in the article. That has not been done. As for now, I restore the article to have it looked before your edit war. This restoration is not an endorsement of either view, just respecting WP:BRD. Once more, you both need to change both the way you address other users and the way you edit. Jeppiz (talk) 23:31, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand what you are agreeing with يوسف عاشق الجبل about, considering that he gave no reason for his disapproval other than arguing that it was offensive and he somehow inherently knew it was false. So, if you could clarify, are you agreeing with his view that it should be removed because it's offensive, or do you agree with his unsubstantiated  claim that it is false? On the other hand, my reason for inclusion is that it is reliably sourced and relevant to the section because it strikingly emphasises just how poverty-stricken and lowly the Alawites were in that era. --118.222.229.61 (talk) 06:45, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

text: Okay, so the source reads: Daughters went off at the age of seven or eight years to work as domestics for urban Sunni Arabs. Because many of them also ended up as mistresses (one estimate holds that a quarter of all Alawi children in the 1930s and 1940s had Sunni fathers)... Therefore, i agree that the 25% section is UNDUE since it is only according to "one estimate"; i don't think it would be undue to retain the "many becoming mistresses to their employers" section of the edit, since there is no hint that this is a single or tiny minority view. What are your thoughts? --118.222.229.61 (talk) 00:34, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Looking forward to your reply. --118.222.229.61 (talk) 12:29, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Third opinion

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: Hi! there I recently noticed that this article is seem to be adding the vandalized information, such as adding the description of the Alid community in this article, and considering the Alevis and Nusayri Alawites as same as Alids, However, Alids are the descendants of the 4th Caliph Ali ibn Abi Talib and Nusayris and Alevis are the Shia Muslim sects, only their terms are similar to the Alids. 111.88.90.249 (talk) 18:57, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nusayris and Bektashis had no similarity with the Alid community 

message: Alawites are not Shias and never were considered as such by anyone but modern day Wahhabis. Alawites don’t attend Twelver mosques and services, they don’t pray daily, they do drink alcohol, don’t perform Hajj, and their women barely veil. Even Ibn Taymiyyah mentioned that they are not Shias, neither were they ever classified as such by Shia Islamic scholars of the past like Shaykh Tusi. Both Assads - Hafez and Bashar, deported Iranian ulama who sought to make Alawites into Shias. Alawites are completely unrelated and separate religious group. If they are to be considered as a “Shia sect”, then Ahmadis and Nation of Islam are a “Sunni sect”.
:They are not Twelver Shias, and no one claims they are, so that's besides the point. Basically all sources say they are a branch of Shia Islam. Druze as well. FunkMonk (talk) 07:24, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Twelvers are not the only Shias; Zaydis and Ismailis are also universally considered Shia. Druze started as a branch of Shia but then split into their own religion. KN 940 (talk) 22:02, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

text: Just in addition to that, Alawites do in-fact pray 5 times a day and seek to perform "Hajj" Jacobelali3 (talk) 14:11, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  They are NOT Shias 

message: What are the scriptures besides the Quran they accept? It's only alluded to in the third paragraph, perhaps we could flesh it out with more detail? 24.44.73.34 (talk) 19:14, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Nahj al-Balagha and more controversially kitab al majmu, which I think used to be in the infobox. FunkMonk (talk) 19:21, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other scriptures 

message: The Arabic articles that were cited as sources to the alleged "Massacre of the Telal" are dubious. Both sources claim that the alleged massacre was reported in a letter sent to the Ottoman Sultan and claim that the letter is preserved in the National library of Strasbourg. However, both articles do not give any further information about the letter that could help us reach it, not even a title. This fact, combined with the wording of the articles, could help us reach a conclusion that they are nothing but pure propaganda. Steve Hurrington (talk) 18:27, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious source in the Ottoman empire section 

message: As far as I know Nusayris is not an insult
as the article say and repeat
the name was driven from Ibn Nusayr  Carnegie6 (talk) 01:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Muslims don't like to be called Muhammedans, that doesn't mean they don't like Muhammed. FunkMonk (talk) 01:37, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: @Carnegie6 @FunkMonk That term is mostly used by the detractors of the Alawites. One possible reason is that Nusayri has a very similar pronunciation to an expression that means "the little Christians", mocking their closeness to the Middle Eastern Christians and the observance of their religious holidays. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 03:26, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:   Nusayris is not an insult 

message: In the article, sentence about Uğur Şahin being an alawite is cited as source of an article; however, source does not specifies, just assumes. Article journalist says He's from Alexandretta an alevi, so his parents must be relocated from Syria 200 hundred years ago this is not a source but an assume. Therefore, whole part of Uğur Şahin have to be deleted or should be cited with a reliable, definitive source. 31.223.43.88 (talk) 16:13, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uğur Şahin's background is disputed 

message: Are some users missing that their edits are insert Lebanon twice into the infobox? For areas inhabited by Alawites are uncontestedly in Lebanon, they are already already included in Lebanon. For the parts of the Golan Heights under Israeli control (which both the Alawites of the area and I myself consider Syrian), it is contested between Israel, Lebanon, and Syria. The current version reads as if the Golan Heights are all Lebanese, which nobody claims. This is not an issue of one POV versus another, purely of a factually incorrect infobox. This shouldn't even be an issue, WP:COMPETENCE very much applies. Jeppiz (talk) 16:13, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Location is about Ghajar. Northern Ghajar is in Lebanon, southern part is in the occupied Syrian Golan. So that's what the infobox should say.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:42, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, as that entry is specifically about Ghajar, it wouldn't make sense to list Israel as if it was opposed to the Golan part. FunkMonk (talk) 16:45, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Look, I'm sure we agree about Ghajar being Lebanese. That's not the issue, though. That part of the infobox is to provide readers with information about where Alawites live. A discussion about the division of Ghajar is simply WP:UNDUE for the infobox. Alawites who live in Northern Ghajar are included under "Lebanon" (already mentioned), those in Southern Ghajar under "Golan Heights". Ghajar shouldn't even be mentioned in the infobox. Jeppiz (talk) 17:41, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The infobox says "Ghajar", not "Southern Ghajar", so both Lebanon and GH must be included. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:53, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, but why does the infobox say Ghajar? That's my point, it's entirely undue to mention one location only in the infobox. No other Alawite towns or villages are mentioned in the infobox, and Ghajar shouldn't be either per [[WP:DUE[]. Jeppiz (talk) 20:43, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't know who added it to begin with, but Ghajar is an extremely special case with few obvious equivalents worldwide, so it makes sense that it would be presented in a unique way. FunkMonk (talk) 06:09, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: As for the recurring claim of "irredentism" on Lebanon's behalf by one editor, that is just a misunderstanding of what the /Lebanon is supposed to convey; that the Ghajar population is split between Lebanon and the Golan heights, regardless of who controls the latter. It has nothing to do with Lebanese claims to the area, the only part Lebanon lays claim on in that area are the Shebaa Farms. FunkMonk (talk) 23:16, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lebanon  

message: I disagree with @FunkMonk on his decision to revert the Shrine picture to the Zulfiqar, as the page image. The Zulfiqar is too broad to be used to symbolize Alawites. Here are some examples of articles in the Arabic Wikipedia that use the Zulfiqar:
* Muqtada al-Sadr * Hamdanid dynasty * Buyid dynasty * Twelver Shia * Alawites (sect) * Iran * Ismaili * Hezbollah * Hasan ibn Ali * Husayn ibn Ali * Ali al-Sistani * Ruhollah Khomeini * Ja'far al-Sadiq * Category:House of Fatima * Nahj al-Balagha * Kaysanites * Waqifites * Shaykhis * Sharif al-Radi * Muhammad Baqir al-Hakim * Fatima bint Asad * Idrisid dynasty * Karbala * Amir al-Mu'minin * Muhammad Baqir * Sayyid * Ali Zain al-Abidin * Musa al-Kazim * Ali al-Ridha * Muhammad al-Jawad * Ali al-Hadi * Qom * Ahl al-Bayt * Category:Shia books * Imamate * Tawhid in Islam * Ayatollah * Muhsin ibn Ali * Mahdi * Twelve Imams * Amal Movement * Islamic jurisprudence * Fatima's Quran * Ali's Quran * Mut'ah marriage * Zaydiyyah
On the other hand, the shrine is a very typical Alawite Maqam, it is very representative. Not just this particular Shrine, but these kinds of Shrines (or Maqams, or Ziyarahs). There are hundreds of these in the Levant, and this is a very characteristic Alawite Shrine because of the typical white paint and the typical architecture. 
One other reason that made me think this picture has great representative value is this summarized quote from Sevan Nisanyan, who is knowledgeable on these matters, from a video:
I would like to have a constructive discussion on this subject that we can learn from each other. Also, I would like to invite @PaFra and @Solmissos to the discussion if they have time, due to their expertise on the subject. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 02:35, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, the most universal symbol for Alawites is zulfiqar, just like the cross is for Christianity. Having a random shrine of no particular significance doesn't really add anything to the broader understanding of the group. This photo is even tagged with "Sufism" on Commons, which is unrelated to Alawites, and makes it uncertain what it belongs to. But if it's indeed Alawite and not Turkish Alevite, it's a perfect representation of that under the section on Alawites in Turkey, where it is now. FunkMonk (talk) 08:10, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @FunkMonk Thank you for the response, but I'm not sure you have addressed some my points above. The Zulfiqar is a symbol of Alawites, that is true. The problem is the Zulfiqar is also a symbol of Shia Muslims, which is a much larger group. Even if we consider the Alawites a subgroup of Shia Muslims, it is not the best representation to use the same symbol for all subgroups. Something that uniquely represents that subgroup is definitely better. Regarding the Shrine being Alevite instead of Alawite: Definitely not. If you do some research, Samandag (Suweydiah), where the Shrine is located, is a city near the Turkey-Syria border and the city has one of the most significant Alawite populations in the region. The Turkish vs. non-Turkish distinction is artificial: For many centuries all the present-day countries with significant Alawite populations belonged to a single empire with no borders between them. Regarding this being only a random Shrine: as I say, this characteristic repeats itself all over the Levant. It is a typical Alawite Shrine because of the white paint and the dome. There are many shrines like this in Syria, too. I'm okay if we find a picture of a different Alawite Shrine, or something that represents the Alawites, but not too broadly all Shia Muslims. At least, are you okay with me using a "multiple picture" template and adding the Shrine under the Zulfiqar? I will update the caption to clarify that it is not this specific Shrine, but the common existence of shrines with this architecture is why the picture is there.  Thanks again for the constructive discussion. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 01:34, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I know, but since both ethnically Turkish Alevis and ethnically Arab Alawites exist in Turkey, it is more important to have solid sourcing than for example images from Syria or Lebanon, where only Arab Alawites exist. I think we would need some more views on this either way, as I still don't see why any random shrine should be used as the main image, unless it has anciennity or a more universal significance. FunkMonk (talk) 16:10, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @FunkMonk Actually, I just found a reference (Full text available via the Wikipedia Library) that establishes that this is indeed an Alawite shrine, and it is more than a random shrine: "In terms of spiritual potency the Khidr ziyarat are regarded as the most powerful. Particularly, the Khidr ziyara in Samandag ̆ (see Figure 2) needs to be mentioned in this context, because among the Alawi it has acquired the status of a pilgrimage site equal to Mecca." TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 01:25, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

text: This is a page about Alawites, the group, so an image with some people in it is immediately an improvement on an image with no people in it. An abstract symbol is not a good representation of a group. Britannica, a useful tertiary reference point, has a picture of a group of people. As for the zulfiqar image itself, where is it even from? It looks user generated, and user generated calligraphic images are now proscribed by MOS:CALLIGRAPHY. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:58, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Shrine is the best picture we have in Commons that represents the Alawites 

message: I removed the use of the word "regime" because it seems loaded.ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen (talk) 14:30, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regime? 

message: This topic is extremely incorrect. The Alawites do not believe imam Ali to be an incarnation of god 120.21.186.112 (talk) 13:54, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 15:20, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 29 March 2024