Talk:Angels in Neon Genesis Evangelion/Archive 1

message: Anyone going to include Arael's choice of music?  Kaworu later hummed it. Hmmm... I can't recall what it was. Obsidian-fox 12:52, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arael's Music 

message: The Evas are often referred to in some sectors of the fan community by their Japanese designations. Rather than Unit 01, or Eva-01, the Japanese Seiyuu refer to the first Eva as Shogouki, with Sho meaning 'first' and gouki meaning 'unit'. The primary Evangelions of the story then become, in order, Zerogouki; Shogouki; Nigouki. This sounds rather more pleasant to my ears, than the English designation. Any objections to me using them in my edits?  --Soluzar
If you do use them, simply say their Japanese name is <XXXX>
Even the opening sequence shows flashframes of the Evangelions as "Unit-01", "Unit-02", etc. All the promotional material and official artwork and fiction reflects that their official designations were intened to be "Unit-XX". -- Matariel 20:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Names of Evangelions 

message: While I have only done a couple so far, my revised Angel descriptions are somewhat larger than that which existed previously. Does this  pose a problem? Would the desire be to keep them as short as possible, or to expand them even further, or just leave as is? --Soluzar
Feel free to expand further... or even create a whole page for each Angel, if desired.  That's what Wikipedia is all about!
: Please do not actually create a page for each Angel as was suggested by the anonymous commenter; it is much more convenient, organized, and less excessive to have them all on the same page. -℘yrop (talk) 02:47, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
: I disagree.  Creating a page for each Angel would be okay, so long as a great deal of extra information comes along with it.  (e.g. an image, estimated height and weight, special attacks, meaning of the name, episode appearance, concept designer from Gainax, comments from Anno, etc.)  That doesn't mean get rid of the overall Angels page, which would be good for discussing the Angels overall, but if you can dig up enough information for a full article about each Angel, then you should put them in their own Article. Obsidian-fox 16:46, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Size of sections 

message: kinda stupid but had to ask. 
so, the purpose of angels is trying to reach 'adam' (or lilith) to create 3rd impact and ending the human race? 70.70.209.80 22:10, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Pretty much. Though the motives behind this are still speculated upon. --cheese-cube 12:49, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My understanding was that each of them wanted the earth for themselves. I took seriously the line that the other Angels were other directions that human life may have taken, and as a result want to be the direction that human life takes. Hackwrench 04:11, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just like Hackwrench said, Angels were 'other versions' of mankind, and so they wanted to be the dominating species of the planet, just like humans are. When they awoke (with the second impact), they started to struggle to reach Terminal Dogma, leading to a 'destructive Third Impact', exterminating every other Angel species (including humanity). This explains why SEELE and Gendo could only achieve their Third Impact Scenario by killing every other Angels first: to let only mankind alive, thus leading to a 'constructive Third Impact' wich would gather all human life-forms togheter to make them a complete Angel (Human Complementation/Instrumentality Project). ~Nih 18:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: I think it would be a really good idea to add an image of each angel to their description. The only problem with this is the licensing issues. Do screen captures from TV series fall under fair use or are they fully copyrighted? --cheese-cube 01:58, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Gainax released a number of images for use on websites that can be used as long as they're not modified. I'll see if I can dig them up somewhere.zzymyn 01:03, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: I think regardless, humans are considered to be the 18th Angel per the information provided by the actually series (in the 2nd movie if I am right). You can't just discount reputible information from the main source even if you may disagree with it.
I'll reinsate it, and we can discuss it here in the future. Don't just make these kinds of huge edits without at least posting something here first.--Juhachi 03:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can kinda counter his point, too... Touching Lilith does not start an impact, touching Adam does.  However, as I recall, Misato said "Maybe humanity is the 18th Angel", not "humanity is the 18th Angel". MythSearcher 03:34, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In the End of Evangelion, it's directly stated that man is the 18th angel by lilith after being recombined with rei.  Misato mentions "maybe" earlier in the series.--Cwiddofer 05:00, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If that's the truth, then I'd say just edit the article to take out the word 'maybe' and also to drop off a line about what you just mentioned. Should be sufficient enough to solve this problem.--Juhachi 00:56, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess the Misato mentions line could be taken out if it is not stated by her explicitly. I only have the original script of the TV series and cannot find the referenced line in the movie. MythSearcher 14:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Misato tells Shinji very matter of factly that humans are the 18th Angel, during their car ride together trying to reach Unit-01 in End of Evangelion. -- Matariel 20:19, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Human as the 18th Angel 

message: Are the names based on real angels? I don't remember some of those names  when I was studying religious history and stories of different judeo-christian sects.
:Many places in the article are references to angels from religion. Read the article and you'll find them.--Juhachi 05:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm curious about that myself, as I watched the entire series recently and Misato never mentions Sachiel by name that I remember. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 12:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Angel names?

message: Just watched the episode with the 17th Angel on CN today.  Since I haven't read the manga, I was wondering something:  When they said that the strongest AT field they had ever encountered (another Angel!) was in Central Dogma, I assumed it to be Rei.  The AT field of the 17th Angel was already recognized, and she does have the soul of Lilith.  And she just sorta appeared there, around the time that the AT field was identified.  Is this totally crazy and/or more clear in the manga? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.29.72.186 (talk • contribs) .
:I think you're right; Rei projected her AT field in the same manner that Tabris did when Units 01 and 02 began fighting.  Also, Rei's AT field is mentioned specifically in End of Evangelion.  Since the English translation of the 10th volume of the manga hasn't been released in the US yet, I can't say whether or not the manga makes this more clear. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 22:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rei's AT field

message: Is it me, or do the Angel's name meanings in each paragraph seem to contradict one another. I'll give an example: "The thirteenth Angel, Bardiel, named after Barachiel, the angel that governs lightning and hail." This contradicts: "Bardiel literally means "Humiliated Son of God," referring to being forced to possess an Eva instead of appearing in physical form." I think these should be looked into and disscussed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CyberWrist101 (talk • contribs) .
:If you think the article contradicts itself, add a  tag to the top of the article. -- ReyBrujo 00:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradicting Name Meanings 

message: I don't know why, but one or both of the thumbnails for the images of Adam will not load for me.  I can view the regular sized pics, though, when I click on the links.  Anyone else having this problem? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 03:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They show up fine for me. Maybe there's something wrong with your connection or browser. I'm using MSN browser. -- (十八|talk) 04:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It works for me as well. Juhachi, you should substitute your signature, it is not recommended to transclude signatures. -- ReyBrujo 04:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: O.o I had no idea there was such a thing; glad you told me. *Uses it from now on* -- (十八|talk) 04:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm using IE as well, and on a cable connection.  Very strange... Willbyr (talk | contribs) 06:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pics of Adam

message: I noticed that some of the tense items are contradictory, things that happened in the past tense as far as the storyline is concerned (2nd impact and such) should be past tense. Thygard 19:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  tense 

message: When Gaghiel swallows Unit 02 a red sphere is briefly visible at the back of it's mouth, i'd believe this to be the core. (the scene in question is slightly less than 17 minutes into the episode, right after Kaji escapes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bistromatic (talk • contribs) .
:You're right; the article should be edited accordingly. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 03:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gaghiel's Core 

message: Is this info significant enough to warrant inclusion? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 03:31, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, there is no reason for that to be in there as it has no serious bearing to the series as a whole and it can also be seen as a form of fan content or fancruft. I'll remove it as such. -- (十八|talk) 03:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Azrael 

message: In the first section, the article reads "in the English translation, many of the Angels are named after certain angels in Judeo-Christian lore.", yet there is no mention of what the japanese names are. I had no idea that the Japanese names for the Angels are different (and can't find proof of that through google), and the article dosen't say what they are. So my question is -- is the quoted statement true, and if so, is there anyone who can get the japanese version's names for the angels?
--ThrashedParanoid★ 02:08, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's one episode late in the series where the Angels' names are flashed on the screen. ADV replaced them with English text, but I have a copy that wasn't edited in this way. I don't know Japanese, though, so I'm no help on telling whether they say the same thing. EASports 03:43, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I noticed that, and it says basically the same thing.  They're just Katakana representations of the known english names.  So really, it's more that the Angels are named after certain Angels in Judeo-Christian lore, regardless of language. :) -JC 07:50, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese names? 

message: In Super Robot Wars Alpha after Sachiel was destroyed by Londo Bell's super robot, it instantly resurrect but with another of it's "mask" grow on chest area. I just wonder if this variant of Sachiel was ever seen elsewhere? L-Zwei 02:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The same thing happened in NGE; was Sachiel's new mask different than the one it regrew in NGE? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 04:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can't remember exactly. L-Zwei 06:01, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The original mask have a long beak like sharp point, the new one seems to be pretty much the same, but not fully grown out of the body and have a shorter beak.  I bought two model sets to built both.  Also, Sachiel seems to be the only angel that blinked (while intercepting a missile) before being hit by the N2 bomb. ref: here. please click on other pictures to see more details. MythSearcher 13:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't really see any difference between Sachiel's new mask and his old one. The only possibly and logical difference would be the fact that Sachiel's old mask was more worn out due to its possible age differerences or traits, and that its new mask is just plain vanilla construction paper color. If you put more thought into it, however, you'll find out that Sachiel's new mask has larger eye holes, meaning it probably replaced its head or something for its new head, possibly. The size of its visual contractors have probably gone an up or two.
ChronoPika 21:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sachiel's variant? 

message: as soon as rebuild of Evangelion is translated and released in English, this list should be altered to include the new angels (i.e. that clock-looking angel) --Ratstail91 (talk) 10:26, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  new angels 

message: Watching Evangelion reminded me of the Book of Enoch, as well as the story of Lilith, the first wife of Adam before Eve.  Head over to the the Wikipedia section of the Book of Enoch and Lilith to have a read.  The first mentions the Watchers, the angels who were supposed to watch over humans.  The leaders' names and translated names are listed, such as Shamsiel, "Sun of God."  They generally fit the translated names listed in the NGE angels list, but it should be noted where some of these names come from.  In the Bible, very rarely are angels given names.  And also about the Book of Giants, the Nephilim.  I found it interesting that there were giants who preyed upon man and beasts and then fed upon eachother's flesh and blood.  It reminded me of when ever Unit 01 would go ape and eat an angel.  It might not mean anything, but it's a good read.
And about Lilith.  She's appearantly been around for a long time, but it's said in The Alphabet of Ben-Sira, a medieval writing, that she left Adam and the garden because she refused to be below him   during sex, and therefore, did not eat from the Tree of Knowledge.  She appearantly swore to destroy all of Eve's children and gave birth to demons.  Also, she knew the true name of God, and to know the true name of God is to have power over Him, so it says.
NGE feels like it's a mix of everything.  Maybe it all lies with the fact that they're not angels but just messengers; 18 messages, with humans being the conclusion.  Anyway, it's all speculation.
That's really all I'd like to mention.  I didn't mean to rant.  I just wanted to point out the Book of Enoch and shed some light on Lilith and possibly start a little conversation about the two. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ElijahD (talk • contribs) .
I´ve heard from a close friend of mine (and, by the way, a big     fan of the Evangelion series) that after some research about NGE subjects, he discoverd that the first three Eva´s designs were actually based on "demons": EVA 00, the "one eyed" demon; EVA 01, the "screaming" demon and EVA 02, the "four eyed" demon...anyone has some information about this?
Iaquil 196.40.68.218 17:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Barons of Hell are an Internet Rumor, nothing more. See here. Reichu 19:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book of Enoch and a word or two on Lilith 

message: There needs to be some further clarification of the differences of the angels between the manga and anime. Excluding humans, the anime uses 17, the manga only uses 12. Seraphimneeded 13:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been a long time since I've read the manga, but from what I remember the Angels do not differ in their forms, attacks, or eventual fates in the manga.  The only significant difference is that some Angels don't appear in the manga, and Gaghiel's role is pretty much an afterthought.  The biggest difference is in Kaworu's personality and roles, but that's addressed both in this article and in his own article. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 14:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, Bardiel has a some-what new attack in extending it's arm underground before having it reemerge and grasp Eva 01's throat. Also, Israfel does not reform into the main form, but remains seperate as Kou and Otsu, suggesting it cannot reform in the manga. Zeruel21 Contributions 11:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manga Vs Anime 

message: I would like to remove the following passage from the section on Shamshel:
Some fans of the show argue that this Angel's shape and design are phallic in origin, reflecting some Freudian references said to be found in the series. (Shamshel's character designer, Yoshitoh Asari, actually depicts the Angel as female in an erotic manga short called "Angel Kiss".) It may also represent a Caduceus, with its shaft-like body and two sepentine whips.
This passage is simply speculation and has no place on Wikipedia. The fact that it contains weasel words (Which I have indicated) also retracts from its credibility. Also there is no citation for the claim regarding Yoshitoh Asari. I will remove this paragraph unless someone can supply a reason not to.
On the topic I would like someone to provide a citation for the final line in the Shamshel section (Shamshel literally means "Lonely Conqueror of God."). –cheese-cube 01:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The user 24.21.154.177 has put in a ton of stuff in this article today.  Some of it is useful (the note that Ramiel appears to be hollow) but most is speculative and POV.  I reverted him earlier, but he's back with a vengeance.  I'm too tired to take care of it tonight - is anyone going to police his edits or will they be left? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 03:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologize.  I was overzealous and got carried away.  (I'm user 24.21.154.177).  Radioactive afikomen 23:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shamshel Speculation 

message: Okay, I need to clarify this: there is a running theory that Shamshel's recovered "core" was used in Eva Unit 04.  HOWEVER, I don't think they said an "S2 Organ" and a "Core" are exactly the same thing (indeed, Eva's have "cores" as well, as we saw in the Zeruel fight).  Or are the S2 Engines based on research on Shamshel's corpse?  I'm literally working from poorly translated YouTube copies here, please help.--Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 07:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Without actually breaking out the DVD with that episode:  It's my understanding that the Angels' S² Engines are a part of their cores.  Since Shamshel's core was heavily damaged by the Prog Knife, I would think that NERV would've dissected the core remnants and reverse-engineered Unit 04's S² Engine from the remains.  Unit 01 (and, presumably, the other Evas) already had a core at the start of the series, so it stands to reason that Unit 04 probably had its own core as well, without the need to try to rebuild Shamshel's core. (speculation, of course) Willbyr (talk | contribs) 14:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Shamshel's core

message: I got the literal translation of Shamshel (and verified the meanings of all the other Angels' names) from Theophory in the Bible, but I wasn't sure if you can cite Wikipedia as a source in a Wikipedia article. Radioactive afikomen 23:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: With the addition of this reference, there's still some contradictory information in the entries that needs to be pared out. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 04:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source of all Angel names 

message: I don't think the current picture of Shamshel is particularly helpful.  It lends very little towards understanding what the Angel actually looked like (which is the whole point of having any picture at all).  Can someone find a better shot of this Angel?  Perhaps even two pictures:  one depicting Shamshel in its horizontal "flight mode" and the other depicting it in vertical "combat mode."  
I also think the Matarael article could use a second, close-up shot showing its eyes.  The current picture adequately shows the Angel's shape, but not its eyes.  And maybe there should even be a third shot, of Matarael producing its acid.  Radioactive afikomen 15:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed all the way around, although one pic of Matarael releasing its solvent should sufficiently show its multiple eyes. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 17:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pictures of the Angels

message: --The Article says that most of the characters are unaware of the Angels names, but at one point Shinji says “our enemies are beings called Angels, they have the names of the Angels too”, Which would indicate the knows all there names(and read the Old Testament).71.221.69.171 03:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wouldn't it make more sense that the names are just made up by Nerv to code name different Angels instead of being their real names? I mean their real names were never revealed in the series or any other places?  Anyway, that sentence seems to be incorrect and should be modified. MythSearchertalk 16:11, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A problem we don't know is if the Angels have original names or just human codenames; the only ones named on-air in dialogue are Adam and Lilith.  Problem is that Kaworu/Tabris knows these names, but then again, seeing as he is from SEELE, he could have just heard the codenames from them.  YES, it would seem they are code-names applied by NERV as Shinji does say they have the names of Angels. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 17:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My understanding is that the Angels were named in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which is why they have names at all.The Twilight Goddess 02:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The names of the angels are all listed in the special features of the DVD, along with a profile to go with it. Therealsquee 02:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

text: No I mean in Eva the Angels names were written on the Dead Sea Scrolls in SEELE’s possession.The Twilight Goddess 03:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well yeah SEELE knows that, but does everyone else?  I think based on Shinjis comment that they do.  --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 04:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Everyone that is at least slightly in the know calls them Angels, even Shinji's classmates who are supposed to be kept in the dark. The term Angel was mentioned in the first episode by Gendo: Yes, there's no doubt. It's an Angel. However their individual names are only seen in the Seele slide shows in Episodes 14 and 23. Shinji actually says: Angels, messengers of God, enemies named after servants of Heaven. Why are we fighting them? Not that they have the names of individual Angels that need only mean that collectivly they are called Angels --Tyrfing 01:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thoughts?