Talk:Norn language

message: Here is a version of Matthew 6:9-13 in Modern Faroese from 1961 (after Jacob Dahl and Kristian Osvald Viderø), but maybe the older one is better in the article...
:Faðir vár, tú sum ert í himlunum! Heilagt verði navn títt;
:komi ríki títt, verði vilji tín
:sum í himli so á jørð;
:gev okkum í dag okkara dagliga breyð;
:og fyrigev okkum skuldir okkara,
:so sum vit fyrigeva skuldarum okkara;
:og leið okkum ikki í freistingar; men frels okkum frá tí illa.
:Source: http://www.bibelselskabet.dk/farbib/web/matt/6b.htm
Arne List 12:02, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: matthew

message: Are there any reports of efforts to revive Norn? With the succesful revivals of Manx and Cornish in mind, and recent attemps to revive even Cumbrian, I can hardly believe no one yet has tried to revive Norn as well.--Caesarion 13:20, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is this one -> http://www.shetlink.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2316&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 Dylansmrjones (talk) 15:27, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: With the extant Norn being so little, I doubt much could be done to revive it. You'd basically take the little that is known, compare it to Faeroese, and then assume every difference represents a sound change between the two and extend it over all the Faeroe vocabulary. What you'd get would be of dubious heritage indeed. If any in Shetland want to revive/preserve a language they'd better focus on modern Shetlandic Scots.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.11.81.111 (talk) 06:13, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: efforts to revive norn?

message: "After the islands were ceded to the Kingdom of Scotland in the 15th century". Ceded by Denmark I presume. Laurel Bush 11:01, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, they were Norwegian possessions and pawned to Scotland by the king of Norway. The confusion has arisen because at the time the king of Denmark was also the king of Norway (see Kalmar Union). -- Nidator T / C 14:54, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Cheers. I believe now however that they were anexed by but never officially ceded to Scotland. Laurel Bush (talk) 11:27, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, they were not ceded. The king of Norway, Christian I, "pawned" the islands to the king of Scotland as security for dowry payments towards his daughter Margaret's marriage to the very same king of Scotland. The Scottish/British position is that they were annexed some time later, but I understand that this is a touchy issue in the islands. -- Nidator T / C 14:37, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ceded

message: This story says, of an inhabitant of Skaw, "A former resident, Walter Sutherland, was reputedly the last man to speak Norn, the archaic Scandinavian language.".  How much credence should we give this? -- Finlay McWalter |  Talk 19:08, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
:Very little, judging from Barnes' The Norn language of Orkney and Shetland. At best, there might've been some older speakers of Scots with plenty of Norn vocabulary and grammar in the 1840s, but not anything that could be considered proper Norn.
:Peter Isotalo 21:32, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As we know from the story of Tuone Udaina, as well as various other examples such as Irish dialects, individual speakers can survive the general extinction of a language for many decades. Exceptionally long-lived individuals with a keen interest in language who pick the language up from their parents even if they did not talk to their children in it, and then preserving the memory of the language (and not just set texts, fixed formulæ and songs) for many decades despite never speaking it anymore through all those years; such cases are very real. So we shouldn't be too quick to rule the possibility out. Also, if I'm not mistaken, we do not actually know when Norn was truly moribund even in the remotest corners of Shetland. It's just a mere assumption that it was moribund everywhere already in the late 18th century; give or take (rather give, in this case) a few decades for this and that nook and cranny, and it becomes plausible. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 05:29, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Last speaker

message: Quoth the article:
: This includes a devoicing of /p, t, k/ to /b, d, g/ before or between vowels
Does this mean "a voicing of" , or "of /b d g/ to /p t k/"? I expect the former is more likely, but wish to confirm. —Felix the Cassowary (ɑe hɪː jɐ) 13:42, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Devoicing? 

message: i've being studying the germanic peoples, cultures, and languages for several years now, but finding information on norn has been rather frustrating. Gringo300 04:09, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: trying to learn more about norn

message: "This includes a voicing of /b, d, g/ to /p, t, k/ before or between vowels..."
Shouldn't this be the other way round? When /p t k/ change to /b d g/ they are 1) softened and 2) voiced. This found in Danish, Scanian, southernmost Norway ('soft coastal strip') and southern Iceland (including Reykjavík). 
Secondly, it could better be called softening as these sounds in some languages (e.g. Standard Danish and Icelandic) developed further and lost their voicing but are still soft. In Norwegian and Swedish /b d g/ are often described as semi-voiced. In most, maybe all Germanic languages voicing of /b d g/ is less energetic than in the Romance, Slavic and other languages. Thus, softening is the more important feature.
::Shouldn't it rather be "after or between vowels"?--213.236.196.39 (talk) 22:50, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Phonology + originally Scottish lands?

message: 3rd § : "Norse." Isn't this a mistake instead of "Norn" ? 213.56.242.237 07:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Norse or Norn

message: Is there any period in which it can be said to have ceased to be Old Norse, and become Norn? --MacRusgail 23:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a good question, and I have been wondering about that myself. I imagine that there was a fuzzy line between being just another Norwegian dialect and a separate language, and it really is a matter of definition. As I understand it the word "norrœnn" (Old Norwegian, etc.) is the origin for both "norn" (norrœnn ... norn) and the Modern Norwegian "norsk" (norrœnn -> nornskr -> norsk). -- Nidator T / C 18:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  When did Norn become Norn? 

message: There was an unrelated link in the first section that lead people to some central African language which has nothing to do with Norn. I deleted it.--Napkin65 (talk) 21:48, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted frivolous link  

message: I just fixed the sample texts so that the dashes and such fit with each other. It should be noted that they may seem very different, but that is also because they are separate translations, with different choices in expression having been made. They could had been a lot more similar, if cognate words had been used. FunkMonk (talk) 03:28, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sample text 

message: The article makes two claims:
1. "Norn is generally considered to have been fairly similar to Faroese, sharing many phonological and grammatical traits with this language, and might even have been mutually intelligible with it; thus, it can be considered an Insular Scandinavian language."
2. "Norn shared many traits with the dialects of south-west Norway."
I should first point out that neither of these claims seem to be sourced. Where are they from?
Furthermore, this is inconsistent. Is Norn closer to Faroese or South-west Norwegian? If it shares many traits with the dialects of south-west Norway, how can we justify classifying it as Insular Scandinavian when the dialects of south-west Norway are classified as Mainland Scandinavian? Presumably, the features it shared with SW Norwegian are somehow different from the features it shared with Faroese. 
The article also claims that Norn shared many grammatical and phonological features with Faroese. What is the basis for this claim? What is the source?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.107.74.246 (talk) 21:42, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistency? 

message: (Note:cross-posted at Talk:Shetland Scots)
Please see:
*Pulmonic ingressive speech in the Shetland Isles: Some observations on a potential Nordic relic feature
Mais oui! (talk) 03:38, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of [[ingressive pulmonic speech]]? 

message: Can we get a lot more citations? It would be easy to put in a lot of of {citation needed} - but not so constructive. --Madglad (talk) 04:28, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: I notice the John O' Groats and Caithness Journal states "" However, I can't easily find a source directly from UNESCO (or elsewhere) that backs this up. Can anyone else find one? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:06, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is the language exctinct? 

message: https://nornlanguage.x10.mx/index.php?shet_txt_rest
https://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/news/bower-author-helping-norn-become-the-norm-133561/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Judeobasquelanguage (talk • contribs) 01:28, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you added these links to your edits and they do not support your assertions. Stop editing until you have explained yourself and provided sources which actively support your assertions without WP:OR or WP:SYNTH until a consensus is reached. Per WP:BRD, you were Bold, you were Reverted, so Discuss. Mutt Lunker (talk) 09:17, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

text: Per above, your assertions about a revival are not not supported by your sources and, contrary to what you say, there is no cover of a revival movement in the article. Mutt Lunker (talk) 15:37, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  The modern revival movement