Talk:Drala Mountain Center

message: First, the organization which runs this center was incorporated in 2000. That is where the history of this organization starts.
Prior to that Vajradhatu operated the property as Rocky Mountain Dharma Center and then Rocky Mountain Shambhala Center, both of which should be covered in the Vajradhatu article, not here. 
This article should start at the founding in 2000, with a link to the history of the former operation in Vajradhatu. Material about history before the formal incorporation of the current entity should be moved.
I will begin working on this. Skyerise (talk) 11:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorporated in 2000 

message: There were a lot of issues with historical precision which I have attempted to address. First, neither the previous nor current retreat center were ever operated by Shambhala International. Rather, it was operated by Vajradhatu, first as RMDC, then as RMSC, prior to its separate incorporation.
In 2000, Vajradhatu became Shambhala International and this organization was incorporated separately as Shambhala Mountain Center at the same time. So the timeline is:
* 1970s: Rocky Mountain Dharma Center, operated by Vajradhatu
* 1990s: Rocky Mountain Shambhala Center, operated by Vajradhatu 
* 2000s: Shambhala Mountain Center, independent of Shambhala International with some oversight from Sakyong Potrang (not SI)
* 2020s: Drala Mountain Center, completely independent from Shambhala International
We should follow the sources: the correct name for each period must be used, because no source prior to February 2022 refers to the center as "Drala". I've merged the history all together chronologically. Multiple tiny sections taking the developments out of chronological order are not the way to present the material, and Controversy sections are discouraged. Skyerise (talk) 11:57, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: *So, Rocky Mountain Dharma Center was not a separate organization but rather part of Vajradhatu. At the same time Vajradhatu became Shambhala International, Shambhala Mountain center was incorporated as a separate entity, recently renamed Drala Mountain center. Both RMDC and Rocky Mountain Shambhala Center now redirect to Vajradhatu. I'll take a look at Walrus and make sure it uses the corrent name for the period and links to the correct article. Skyerise (talk) 17:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

text: * Hmm, I don't see any mention in Walrus, nor can I imagine why it would be linked from there. Skyerise (talk) 17:46, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I see that all references to the Walrus article, https://thewalrus.ca/survivors-of-an-international-buddhist-cult-share-their-stories/, have been removed. I'm having trouble finding the exact point where it was removed so it's unclear who made the change, but I think this statement, from a previous version of the page, is highly relevant: "In September 2020, an investigative report detailed a culture of abuse dating back to early days of the Shambhala Buddhist organization" as it documents three separate instances of abuse that took place here, when it was still called Rocky Mountain Dharma Center. It doesn't seem right to scrub this history just because of a name change and corporate reshuffling. Am I missing something? Phlonx (talk) 20:41, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I went ahead and re-added it. If anyone has a serious objection, we can have it out here. Phlonx (talk) 20:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey Phlonx, I have some thoughts but I'm done editing for the day. I'm fine with what you've added for now. Moshitan (talk) 20:57, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

text: *I've fixed that. Skyerise (talk) 17:43, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Precision in historical account 

message: I reverted the article back to 's most recent edit, as  continues to make mass reversions back to their previous version, which now multiple users have agreed were unduly weighted, without discussing on this talk page or their own. I have made requests for discussion with this user, but received no response. I have placed an edit warring warning on their talk page. I will submit a request for dispute resolution on WP:AN/3 when I have the time to put it together. Moshitan (talk) 15:39, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I have restored the Chapman University statement with a citation referencing the Wayback machine's copy of the Lion's Roar article. Thank you Phlonx (talk) 18:35, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Good find, thank you.  Thanks for the revert, I was trying to keep it with the style you had set up, but clearly misunderstood it. Moshitan (talk) 18:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Note that a detailed reading of the article cited indicates the bad behavior was racist, not sexual. Skyerise (talk) 18:47, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact, the original news report did reference sexually inappropriate behavior. Curiously, the Lion's Roar article fails to mention it. I have added "sexual" back to the text, and added a citation of the original report. Phlonx (talk) 20:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: My guess is that Lion's Roar corrected a mistake in their reporting and that is why they updated the article. I think we should reference the updated article only, as doing otherwise feels like bad journalism to me. Moshitan (talk) 20:05, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, there's a newer version of the article than I was looking at? I just trust the links too much I guess. Skyerise (talk) 20:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the one you were looking at initially was the updated version Moshitan (talk) 20:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

text: No, the original report came from journalists at Chapman University. It appears that Lion's Roar misrepresented their work. I think the word should stay, because the original report is primarily about inappropriate sexual behavior. The racist song is seconary. Phlonx (talk) 20:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a reference to the original report? Because if not we should use the most recent version. Moshitan (talk) 20:09, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I already did that. It's footnote 13: SPECIAL REPORT. Phlonx (talk) 20:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup, I just checked and that's the most recent working archive, and there doesn't seem to be a live version. I can't see any reason not to include the original report as well. Skyerise (talk) 20:15, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Good find Phlonx and sounds good to me. Moshitan (talk) 20:16, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Here is the full report in video form by the Chapman University news team, could that also please be included as a source? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAyO0detH5k Anabelle Hidalgo (talk) 20:24, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Phlonx has already linked it at 13: SPECIAL REPORT Moshitan (talk) 20:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit War March 2024 

message: We've got a lineage of teachers, at least three organizations plus Naropa, the training itself, a stupa, and probably some more related articles that I don't know about. I'd suggest someone should create a  titled "Shambhala Buddhism" or "Shambhala Training" to make navigation between the articles easy so we don't feel the need to repeat things in each article. Skyerise (talk) 20:19, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems like a great idea. I've already eaten into my work time this week far too much though with this pageMoshitan (talk) 20:30, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I may look into it later, spent enough time editing today. Skyerise (talk) 20:32, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for all your work! Moshitan (talk) 20:33, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Navigation