Talk:Kanon (video game)/Archive 3

message: There are a couple of websites out there (I'll try to find them again a bit later) that are claiming Kanon 2006 will run 26 episodes instead of 24. I'm hoping it's 26, considering they're already up to Episode 15 and have only finished 2 of the 5 story arcs so far. Aizawa Yuuichi 23:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A couple of websites just doesn't cut it at this stage. It has been widely known since last March that this series was going to run for 24 episodes, so unless you can find a reputable source and cite it too, 24 stands.---- (十八) 05:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be willing to bet that if it does turn out to be 26 episodes, the last two will probably end up being OVAs or some other kind of special (like Air did).--SeizureDog 05:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But if that were the case, then the main series would still be 24 episodes and then we'd either have to add in another OVA box to the template, or yet another anime box, much like with Air in Summer which aired on TV first, technically making it a 2 episode anime. Just pointing that out.---- (十八) 06:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

text: http://cal.syoboi.jp/tid/910/time —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.217.22.128 (talk) 04:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I may be alone here, but I'm still a bit skeptical about that. That site could have merely added in those last two episodes because they didn't know the exact number. There are not episode titles past 21, so I don't think one website is sufficient at this time.--(十八) 05:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

text: On second thought, I'll cite the source and change the info; thanks for the website anon.--(十八) 05:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  24 or 26 episodes? 

message: I am pleased to award this article Good Article status in accordance with the GA Criteria. Congratulations to the lead editors! Kind regards, Anthonycfc [T • C] 17:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:GA|GA]] nomination

message: First off, we can't just link the word eroge in the lead, because that would be a copyedit violation. For foreign terms, it's better to pipe link the term into something more accessable to others that don't know that term first off. This is so the reading of the article is not impeeded at wondering what that word is and since they don't have to click on the word to figure out it's meaning, they can just go along and read the rest of this article instead of going to eroge.
Next, the term adult-only is used because in Japan, by law, only adults (18+) could purchase the game, so for all intents and purposes, since this game was never officially licensed in any other country than Japan, the original version was indeed adult-only. That doesn't mean that minors couldn't play it, just that they couldn't buy it. The same rules apply in America for regular pornography.--(十八) 10:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So it's not adult only, it's... made for adults. 76.178.95.219 11:10, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Lead and "adult-only" 

message: So I just got around to seeing episode 24 tonight. Any idea if that all happens in the game as well? The happy ending aspect of it seems just kinda...forced. --SeizureDog 09:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I looked over a walkthrough of the game after I saw the last episode, and it seems it actually does happen that way, at least as far as all the good ends go. Since it was an anime, they had to splice all the good ends into one, so while it seemed kind of overboard, that's just because they combined 5 good ends. The epilogue with Ayu out of the hopital happens too, though the manga version is different than the anime, so I'm not positive if Ayu has to use a wheelchair in the game or that KyoAni just put it there themselves. :/ --十八 14:29, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Kyo-Ani made up LARGE parts of the ending.  Specifically, much of episode 23; Yuuichi never passes out in the snow or meets the "real" Makoto in any of the game paths.  The final episode is similar to the end of Ayu's path, but obviously all of the other girls have no place in it in the game.  Personally, I like Kyo-Ani's ending... it manages to tie things together pretty well, and I always prefer happy endings over depressing ones in series like this one. Moogy (talk) 16:33, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

text: KyoAni's "edits" to the canonical Kanon (no pun intended) storyline was mostly appropriate overall.  The story, theme, and settings revolved mostly around reality with pinches of miracles sprinkled here and there.  The edits with Nayuki's clock being changed to something other than Keropi and Shiori's running off on Yuuichi were a few edits that I personally don't like.  Yuuichi's passing out and meeting the real Makoto was also a bit odd, to me at least.  I don't see it as a good nor as a bad thing considering the size of Makoto's fanbase.  Real-Makoto's introduction was probably to reinforce the idea that fox-Makoto's miracle happened and also reinforced the Japanese myths surrounding fox spirits.  I think KyoAni did an exemplary job with the ending.  Simply skipping from Yuuichi's discovery of Ayu's comatose body to a recovered Ayu was unrealistic and completely disregards the character building effort that KyoAni had done.  The fact that KyoAni included Yuuichi and friends visiting Ayu and doing the various muscle therapies all the way to the end where Ayu is helped into her wheelchair is simply brilliant.  It not only builds on what we know of the characters but also builds on their dedication to each other.  Basically, Makoto + Mai + Nayuki + Ayu's endings were held largely intact.  Shiori's ending was completely different in that original-game-Shiori collapsed in Yuuichi's arms at the water fountain scene.  The epilogues of all the Kanon girls were held the same way as the original game's epilogues.  (Psychoneko 08:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anime ending 

message: I've noticed that the article frequently switches between present and past tense.  For example, from the setting and themes section:
The time of year the story occurred in was during winter, and since it often snowed periodically over the course of the entire story, the city was always presented covered in a layer of snow. The covering snow helps to develop the mysterious mood that the story flows through.
There are recurring themes that appear throughout the story.
It occurs as frequently as between paragraphs, as you can see.  Now, I believe Wikipedia policy is to use present tense for fiction, but I'd just like to get some consensus on the matter before I go ahead and make sweeping edits (I'd also like to make the prose flow better, but that's another concern entirely). Moogy (talk) 16:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There was a consensus reached before about when and where to use which tense. When talking about the plot 7 or more years before the story begins, use past tense. Anything after when the story begins can use present.--十八 20:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In other words, you agree that some fixing up needs to be done, as the example quoted above is talking about the present in the story but is in past tense? (To be exact, it's from the Setting and themes section, third paragraph) --Powerlord 20:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tense

message: This article jumps around from the novel to the game then back again, they should be separate articles. Chris 00:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Er, not really.  Mind describing one of these "jumps?"  I don't think the article needs to be split at all.  Moogy (talk) 14:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article isn't long enough to be split into anything, and the only viable split would come from the Adaptations section, and that does not need to be split off as it's not too long and there's not really enough information on the adaptations to warrent a split right now.--十八 15:57, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoever wrote much of this assumed the animes were closer to the game and they really aren't. In both the guy has returned to a Hokkaido town where he vacationed 7 years earlier. He remembers nothing before leaving the town. Throughout the both series he meets people he knew from before and has to regain the missing memories of them. In the original Ayu (the cute short girl with the winged backpack) is revealed at the end to be the reason for his amnesia. She was a playmate he was very close to and is the reason for his amnesia. Though still the size of a child he falls in love with her only to learn the reason he lost his memory is he saw his playmate die in an accident. Ayu's winged backpack symbolize her angelic status. As his memory returns he embraces her but his arms meet and she is gone with only her pack left behind. Throughout the series he encounters love and loss and it is quite beautiful in how it is done. In the new one Ayu is still the same and does the vanish in the next to last episode. When the guy tells of his returned memory and Ayu's death he is told she didn't die and is just in a coma. He ends up waking her and an annoying happy end happens. Even the beautiful fox spirit arc gets undercut in the next to last episode. What a disappointment. Because of the disparity, I suggested the split. Chris 06:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So, you want a split because you didn't like KyoAni's version of the ending...? Moogy (talk) 13:07, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Agreed. (Psychoneko 08:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: split proposal

message: I have removed the following inaccurate section from the end of "Gameplay":
One of the goals of the original version's gameplay was for the player to enable viewing of several H scenes depicting Yuichi and one of the five heroines having sexual intercourse. However, these scenes made up only ten percent of the game. Key's intent was for the player to focus on the story and characters themselves, as opposed to ultimately finishing each of the separate storylines in order to view the sex scenes.
Console ports
For the Dreamcast and PlayStation 2 console ports of Kanon new material was added to make up for the removal of the H-scenes. A new heroine with her own story, named Rumi Nanase, was included.[7] Rumi appeared in the background of some scenes at school in the original game, but she did not interact with anyone. Rumi was taken from the visual novel One: Kagayaku Kisetsu e which was made by the same team that made Kanon, though this was while working with Tactics. Rumi is in the same class as Yuichi, which is how they meet.
The sex scenes are 50-75% of the way through the game, not at the end, so it would be misleading and presumptuous to highlight them as a "goal."  Certainly it might provide motivation to many players, but that is implicit in the already-stated fact that the game includes adult content.  Also, they make up much less than ten percent of the game, although they make up about ten percent of the CGs.  The fact that there are sex scenes, moreover, is quite unrelated to the gameplay.  There is one sex scene with each of the main heroines and a fantasy scene between Mai and Sayuri, in case someone wants to find someplace else to put this info.
Rumi isn't in any of the versions.  That was a joke.  See this page (Japanese):  http://tatuya.niu.ne.jp/one-box/1.html  Page-down about twice to where it says in red "honki ni shinaide kudasai."
Please be careful that your information is supported by reliable sources.  If your information is from an unknown poster in a public forum, please at least say so.  I have elsewhere seen someone cite a 2ch post as evidence despite clearly not having the Japanese ability to understand its meaning.  Please avoid promoting rumors as fact.  The Talk page might be a better place to start if in doubt.
I also changed "clean" to "all-ages" in the beginning because "clean" is judgmental.  Skyworm 21:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for removing the inaccurate content. I went ahead and added in the correct information that you provided; is it all right now?--十八 22:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I have fixed it.  It's now in its own section at the bottom, since it really has nothing to do with "Gameplay."
"These scenes make up less than ten percent of the entire game"--that's an understatement.  I think numbering the scenes makes it adequately clear.
"though they make up ten percent of the available CGs"--I'm not sure why this is important.  There are a lot of random statistics I could put on this page, but I'd need a reason.
"The fact that there are sex scenes is unrelated to the gameplay and was included as a motivation to play the game for the original audience."--It's not really like that.  The sex scenes are a part of the story like any other.  Some of them do feel a little forced, but Makoto's, especially, is extremely impressive just as drama (subjective opinion).
"between Mai and Sayuri"--albeit minor, this seems an unnecessary spoiler.
Thank you for your hard work on this and related pages.  Skyworm 07:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I do not agree that the sex is unrelated to the gameplay. People bought these games to view these scenes, so they are an integral part of playing the versions that contained these scenes. There's no reason to split it into a different section.--十八 08:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of large inaccurate section 

message: Somethings wrong with an article about a visual novel if the Plot section is down 3/4th's of the page from the top. Isn't this the most important subject? (considering game+manga+anime) I don't know enough about this series or Wikipedia's standard on visual novels to edit the page myself. --70.142.38.123 10:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This style of formatting a video game was patterned off of the featured article FFVII, though as far as a standard for visual novel articles go, I don't think there is one; there are a multitude of GA visual novel articles though which can be used as examples, this one included.--十八 11:13, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the article follows a nice, chronological sequence of "how it came to be", "what it is", "what its legacy is" that makes sense. --SeizureDog 05:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plot 

message: I changed the original game cover image to the limited edition version featuring only Ayu since that was the real original game cover.--十八 04:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original game cover 

message: As part of WikiProject Good Articles GA sweeps, I am re-reviewing old GAs to see if they still meet criteria. This article is very good overall, but I see one critical issue, in that things like gameplay and a vast majority of the content is cited just to the game. That kind of use of a primary source is just wrong, and supporting citations for pretty much everything save the plot should be introduced or adapted. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 01:43, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's by no means a "vast majority". The only places that use the primary cite of the game itself are the gameplay, setting and themes, and character sections (and then once in development). The reason this is so is because citing information on the game's gameplay has proven difficult, and besides, it's not like using the game as a cite hasn't been used in FA articles (which uses some of the game's direct quotes). Outside of the game, there's an official fan book I could cite, but beyond that there is little else to nothing. Not to mention that the majority of the content in the article is supported by other citations.--十八 04:04, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Okay, I attempted to replace all the things I cited with the game cite.--十八 19:26, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Assuming the book you mentioned is official, as a secondary source it would be infinitely better as a source than using primary materials. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 19:49, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's official; see its page at Amazon. I have the book itself too.--十八 19:53, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can cite as much as you can to that, then, it would be great. Official books are much better than the primary source because it reduces a lot of guesswork and potential for WP:OR issues. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 20:08, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe I have cited as much as is needed to that book. Everything else is supported by other cites.--十八 21:23, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, it looks much better. Thanks for the prompt replies. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 23:45, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good article reappraisal