Talk:Chandos portrait

message: "Yale Center for British Art" is not a complete reference.  Can someone please give a full reference otherwise it will have to be treated as unsourced material. gren グレン 03:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seventeen months later, I improved one reference and eliminated the other sentence. howcheng  {chat} 00:07, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: The first part says the earing and longer beard were added later, but the expert named later uses the earing to verify the "poet" status of the Chandos subject. Conflicting?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.7.15.93 (talk) 04:36, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conflicting info 

message: An interesting bit of historical background is that (according to  and, apparently, ) this portrait was not attributed to John Taylor until the 1980s (see pgs. 51 & 55 of the ; see also Google Books; I haven't done even a cursory examination of ).  I think, however, that it would be prudent to physically have the books (as opposed to the limited or no previews on Google Books) before adding the info, so I'll hold off until then.  :)  --Iamunknown 14:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical background of attribution 

message: In the painting, he has an earring in his left ear. Did they have earrings for men back then or did the painter put earrings on Shakesphere to make him look a certain way? Thanks. 71.116.23.185 (talk) 03:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe Bill Bryson's book on Shakespeare reveals that the earring is apparently a later addition, possibly added to make the subject look more risqué . --81.108.76.53 (talk) 17:24, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I haven't read Bryson's book, but to answer the original question: yes, earrings were common at the time for men who wanted to appear dashing. Plus, you've got to remember the guy was a poet, so even if the earring were added later, it would've been put there specifically because it's something you'd expect to see on an Elizabethan poet; that whole rakish image of the loose collar, tousled hair, earring etc. would roughly correspond to that of the rock stars of today. It was not unusual for religious and otherwise conservative folks to complain about the excessive ornaments people loved at the time, from courtiers with their pearl earrings to peasants with glass baubles. Here's a good article on the fashions of Shakespeare's time:  http://www.shakespeare-online.com/biography/elizabethanclothes.html --Snowgrouse (talk) 08:00, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  His left ear? 

message: I have removed the unsourced statement attributed to the National Portrait Gallery once more. I feel that the National Portrait Gallery has a vested interest in the assessment of whether or not the portrait is genuine, and are therefore an unreliable source in this matter, even if we DID have a source for their assertion. If someone wishes to revert me again, please at least say why. Best regards, Riffraffselbow (talk) 09:40, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not an unsourced assertion, as you will know if you have read the article. Statements in the lede do not have to be sourced if they are summaries of sourced statements in the content. In any case, whether the NPG is 'interested' or not is wholly irrelevant. What matters as far as Wikipedia is concerned is that it is notable and a reliable source. The people who work there are top experts in their field. In fact the NPG's supposed interest in authenticating this as a depiction of Shakespeare is far less than its interest in not undermining its reputation for accurate scholarship. It can't sell the painting. Its 'interest' in having us 'believe in' the painting is chimerical. Its 'interest' being considered academically reliable is far greater (its raison d'etre when established in 1856 was to provide authentication for historical portraits). The NPG has reassigned the sitters in numerous paintings in its collection. All art historians consider NPG publications to be highly reliable and of unimpeachable scholarship. Your deletion was wholly unwarranted and entirely contrary to WP policies. It would mean that we would have to delete all exhibition and gallery catalogues as sources for paintings, since the galleries have an 'interest' in getting you to see the show or come to the gallery. This would apply to any government museum or scholarly institution with a collection. The Louvre couldn't be quoted on the Mona Lisa, the Smithsonian on the history of objects in its collection. All sources from the National Air and Space Museum would have to be removed from the article on The Spirit of St. Louis etc etc. What are universally considered the best and most reliable sources would be deemed unreliable. That's the road to madness! Feel free to raise the matter at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Paul B (talk) 10:36, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I couldn't agree more. Since when is having a acholarly interest equivalent to NPOV? Tom Reedy (talk) 15:29, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  National Portrait Gallery's assertion 

message: I found what I consider to be a delightful remark about the portrait which I think should be included in the article, but I don't think any of the existing sections are right for it.  In an article in the Sunday Times (of London) by Ben Macintyre, March 10, 2009, this remark:  'Some Victorians recoiled at the idea that the Chandos portrait represented Shakespeare. One critic, J. Hain Friswell, insisted “one cannot readily imagine our essentially English Shakespeare to have been a dark, heavy man, with a foreign expression”.'  []  I should like to include it, but possibly a section of reactions to the portrait might be a good place for it.  Does anyone have a strong pro or con opinion about including it or such a section?  There is also a comment in the Shakespeare scholar James Shapiro's book "Contested Will" (which is a defense of the Shakespeare authorship) to the effect that we know so little about Shakespeare that even the image of him in most people's minds (& he is referring to the Chandos portrait) is probably not of Shakespeare at all.  This would also be interesting to include in such a section. NaySay (talk) 18:25, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it would be interesting, I think. It's quite common for Shakespeare fans to complain about the pictures of him. All the surviving ones get lambasted for being rubbish. See the comments at Shakespeare's funerary monument. The  Droeshout engraving fares no better. The Victorian comments you quote are particularly interesting. I'm not sure about Shapiro. He's not an expert on art. Shakespeare literature specialists often say silly things about art. In fact art historians take the view that the authenticity of the portait is highly probable, so I don't know whether Shapiro's opinion tells us much. However, doubtful images there are. Just before Christmas I saw a new book about Shakespeare that had the very dubious Cobbe portrait on the cover. Paul B (talk) 18:37, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I agree the Friswell quote is fetching and worth a giggle.  I also enjoy what Charles Nicholl (in "The Lodger Shakespeare")calls the Droeshout:  "an iconic but incompetent little cartoon."  (p.22.)  Shakespeare portraits are very trying indeed to his fans, as helpless little weathervanes of his impenetrable inscrutability.  Perhaps I'll just add the Friswell remark to the last section, for now.  NaySay (talk) 04:54, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reactions to the portrait 

message: In "Authorship and provenance" the article states "but the first known reference to the painting...".  However, no date for that reference is given.  It would put the reference in better context if the date were added.  2001:468:C80:A103:697A:7316:428F:C307 (talk) 23:36, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, done. Paul B (talk) 18:35, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  When was first reference made? 

message: This article has been subjected to a POV push that claims that the portrait shows Semitic features and that other portraits are deliberately trying to show Anglo features. They also claim that the portrait is the only contemporary portrait of the author. All of this is unreferenced. 
I have twice been reverted with an edit summary of "Significant unreferenced changes, including subjective commentary", but has since been changed again. 
I have left the editor a 3RR warning, but would hope that other editors could wade in and give some input so that a consensus can be reached. --Dmol (talk) 10:34, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Absent the proponent's willingness to engage in discussion here, or even to provide citations for their preferred changes, their actions just fall under the rubric of edit-warring and POV-pushing. If they persist, the next step is WP:AN/EW. --Xover (talk) 11:24, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent unreferenced edits.