Talk:Arab Christians/Archive 2

message: There is no dispute under international law that the West Bank is under Israeli military occupation and not merely "presence" (see Wikipedia article West Bank).  This is an encyclopedia article, not an Israeli government press release. Slackerlawstudent 02:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Edits 

message: Middle Eastern Christians are not ethnic Arabs for the most part.סרגון יוחנא 19:57, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  There are very few "Arab" Christians 

message: First of all I think the most broadest definition of an Arab is any person (be it african or white or whatever) that speaks Arabic as a first language (native language). Tariq's native language is Syriac, not Arabic. Being part of a certian political party does not change your ethnicity; this is silly. He belongs to the Chaldean Catholic Church; a non-arab church. Unless you have a direct quote from him claiming to be an arab, then you should not generalize him as arab. Chaldean 14:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tariq Aziz

message: The Identity section of the article begins with the following statement:
*Historically, a number of minority Christian sects that were persecuted as heretical under Byzantine rule (such as Monophysites) actually began to enjoy more religious freedom under initial Muslim rule than they had under Byzantine (Orthodox Christian) rule. This tolerance however waxed and waned, not lasting for very long.
This statement is far from being true. Even the monophysites usffered under initial Arab Muslim invasions. For instance, the Copts, being called Monophysites (the term itself is erroneous and should be changed to Myaphysites), were persecuted, burned and killed by the troops of Amr Ibn El Ass (the Arab leader who invaded Egypt). Historical sources written by both Muslims (example: Al Makrizi) and Christians (example: John of Nikius) agree on this fact.
I will remove the above statement within the span of two weeks if no one disagrees with this view.
Thanks.--Lanternix 18:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Identity

message: The following sentence is incomplete considering the source given:
In Syria, Christians formed just under 15% of the population: about 2.7 million people, in the 1960 census, but no newer census has been taken. Latest estimates put them at about 10% of the population, due to enduring Islamization and subsequent Christian emigration. About 1.6% or 100,000 of all Palestinians are Christian [12],
One just needs to look at the article to see that not only the Christian emigration is due to Islamisation, but to the Israeli occupation as well. I don't know if the author of this sentence was biased or if it was merely an omission, but I'm correcting it. --Despanan 01:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Palestinian Christians 

message: Lets hear both sides of the arguement. Chaldean 06:58, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What is an Christian arab?

message: As a Copt, I know for a fact that Copts do not consider themselve Arabs. I cannot find any sources online that state this per say. But the opinion is evident from any online Coptic discussion about this particular issue. It's also evident from the fact that all history books written by Copts refer to the Copts as Egyptians, while they refer to the Arabs as the invaders of Egypt, making a clear distinction between both ethnic groups.
Can anyone with knowledge about Egypt/Copts back me on this please?
Thanks. --Lanternix 18:40, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your pretty much right. The most clear cut definition of an ethnic group is a group of people that share a common language; which the Copts and also to a certain extent the Maronites do. Chaldean 19:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

text: As I understand it, its not uncommon for Chaldean Iraqis to speak Arabic as their first language rather than Syriac, 0 where did you get this from? Syriac is spoken by the vast majority of Chaldeans. Chaldean 03:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've met Iraqi Chaldean Catholics who speak to each other in Arabic.  I assumed they were people from places like Baghdad and Basra rather than the north, but I will certainly yield to your knowledge on this subject. Slacker 04:24, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes Chaldeans often do this, but that doesn't mean they dont know Syriac. The reason they do this is speaking in Arabic is alot easier (ie easier to communicate) then in Syriac, since Syriac has alot of variability from origins of one village/area to another. This is a very common practice, but that doesn't change their ethnicity. Chaldean 13:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copts vs Arabs 

message: Arab Christians today can not be an article Arab Christians is better definition. Arab Christians today can be part of this article but not the main article since Christianity is related to ancient Arabs such as Ghassanid, Lakhmids,and people of Najran and Yemen.--Aziz1005 15:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge Arab Christians today 

message: The article currently states that if anyone could not pay jizya, then he were to face execution. It then cites 4 sources, anf they are all highly biased, anti-islamic websites. Such a statement should refer to a historical source, or at least, an unbiased website. If one cannot site reliable sources at wikipedia, then he should know that his statements will be deleted. So i have deleted it. Please, cite reliable sources from now on. Hamid-Masri 12:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Execution? 

message: Some people asked for my references, most Maronites do not identify as Arabs:
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#Origins
* http://amalid.com/prominent_lebs/Gubran_Khalil_Gubran/AMU_to_Powell.htm
* http://www.aina.org/guesteds/20060210113623.htm
* http://lebanesewbass.blogspot.com
* http://www.petitiononline.com/NotArab/petition.html
I'll stop here, short of many other references. Enjoy the reading. --Lanternix 00:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well then. I have removed all the Prominent Arab Christians. --SkyWalker 16:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maronites are NOT Arabs 

message: in syria the government claims that they are 10 % of the population are chritians and in syria they are 18000000 so how it is one million , it is more
:I'll do the changes according to (page 33 of كتاب الطوائف المسيحية في سوريا,نشأتها تطورها تعدادها,سمير عبده) Christians of Syria are 1526997 (estimation of 2000) this means they are around 1.5 million; more than 40% of them are followers of the Greek Orthodox Church and then around 18% are Armenians (Orthodox and Catholic) the rest are followers of other churches such as (Greek Catholic,Syriac Orthodox,Evangelical,Latin and Other churches)--Aziz1005 22:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry my bad :) I counted Armenians and Assyrians as Arab --Aziz1005 22:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Syria

message: The section on Arab Christians in Israel is clearly biased; it points out that they are more successful and educated than Israeli Muslims - this is true, but of course it is equally true for Christians in nearly all Arab countries, especially Israel's majority Muslim Arab neigbors such as Syria, Jordan, and the Palestinian territories.  The fact that this fact is stated for Israel alone gives the clear but false impression that this tolerance is an Israeli exception and that neigboring Arab countries persecute their Christians. Either delete this fact from the paragraph on Israel or mention it in reference to the other countrys as well.Arab Christians Greek1979 07:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israeli Arab Christians  

message: Please stop shoving them into the CHristian Arab article, we all know that they are:
* Ethnic Africans, who never had a Semitic or Arab past.
* They stop using Arabic once they are outside the Arab world.
===Maronites===
* Some politicaly motivated Maronites will claim an Aramean, Syriac or even Phoenician identity. However, those are few and not living among us! The Arabs have their history and presence in the Maronite church. Maronite is religious sect not an ethnicity!.--Skatewalk 04:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Egyptian Christians not Arab

message: * Some politicaly motivated Maronites will claim an Aramean, Syriac or even Phoenician identity. However, those are few and not living among us! The Arabs have their history and presence in the Maronite church. Maronite is religious sect not an ethnicity!.--Skatewalk 04:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Maronites

message: ::Skatewalk, the purpose of this article is to describe this term as it is used in the real world.  It's not supposed to delve into people's genetic make-up or other kinds of personal opinions, otherwise it would be original research.  I don't consider Copts to be Arabs either, but it's a fact that the term has frequently been used to cover all Arab-speaking Christians, including Egyptian ones. Slacker 08:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I beg to differ. Wikipedia is about presenting the correct information, not about repeating and reiterating the misconceptions of the ignorant few. I agree with Skatwalk that all mentions of Copts and Egyptians (except for the bedouin minority of Sinai) must be removed from Arab articles --Lanternix 12:43, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

text: You claimed before that the Ashraaf are 30% of the population and I asked you for your references. You failed to provide any. Then I showed you how little credibility does someone's claim of being a descendent of the Ashraaf have. And I gave you examples of Saddam Hussein and Gadhafi and Bakri all claiming this, and it was later discovered that they paid money to obtain fake certificate linking them to the Arab invaders of Egypt (we'll get to that in a sec). I also explained to you that the only poeple who have lived in isolation from the Egyptians are the Bedouins (of course any article on Egypt should also take the Nubians into account, since they are not ethnic Egyptians, but this has little relevence for an article on Arabs). Until today, the Bedouin Arab culture expresses a condescending attitude towards Egyptian farmers (probably their most famous adage is: armiha lel temsah wala adiha lel fallah aka. I'd rather throw [my daughter] to the crocodile than give her to a farmer [to marry]). So such people living in isolation have really nothing to do with Egyptians. They are only citizens of the modern Republic of Egypt rather than ethnic Egyptians. This clearly does not apply to the so-called Asharf. When some Arabs invaded Egypt hundreds of years ago, Egypt's native population were already numbering millions (refer to Gamal Hamdan's book about Arab immigration to Egypt for more references, or to books by Iris Habib el-Masri and other historians). And not all Arabs who invaded the country, either with Amr ibn el-Ass or later immigrations from Arabia, remained, since they went on to invade North Africa, Sudan and Spain. So the relatively few Arabs who came were assimilated into the Egyptian culture and gene pool. No one can prove that these Arabs remained in isolation, did not intermarry with Egyptians, and produced those who, today, call themselves Asharf. This simply did not happen. So the same way Egyptains in Ancient Egypt intermarried with non-Egyptians, Egyptians in Hellenistic Egypt intermarried with Greeks, and modern Egyptians intermarried with Europeans and Levantines, those in the early Middle Ages intermarried with Arabs and assimilated them into their gene pool. Simple math can prove that today's Egyptian population, although with some outside influence, has retained its authentic Egyptian identity. Refer to the identity section of the Egypt article and see for yourself how Egyptians, until 60 years ago, viewed themselves: Egyptians not Arabs! Only when Nasser's propaganda came to power did Egypt's name changed to Arab Republic of Egypt. He even completely banned people from calling Egypt as Egypt, and rather called the country the Southern region of the United Arab republic!!! This is NOT something that by any means reflect the Egyptians' notion of themselves, but rather an imposed doctrine. And no one said that the Ashraf or the Bedouins are ruling Egypt. Only some brain-washed remenants of Nasser's time. But this will change very soon as more and more people become disillusioned and realize how catastrophic Nasser and his pan-Arabist ideology were and still are for Egypt. I hope this helps --Lanternix 00:26, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Copts

message: ::Skatewalk, the purpose of this article is to describe this term as it is used in the real world.  It's not supposed to delve into people's genetic make-up or other kinds of personal opinions, otherwise it would be original research.  I don't consider Copts to be Arabs either, but it's a fact that the term has frequently been used to cover all Arab-speaking Christians, including Egyptian ones. Slacker 08:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You make it sound like the Copts are bad people because they denounce Arab identity! Do they have to love and worship people who invaded their country and attempted to destroy their identity, erasing their language and treating them as slaves in the country of their forefathers???!!! What sort of logic is that? Of course they have every right to denounce an identity and a language that were forced upon them but (and again I repeat, and go look for that in your history books) naked un-educated Bedouin Arabs! And I stand firm by my words. When Iraqis being "proud" of American English and American culture, or when Palestinians start being "proud" of Hebrew language and Zionist Israeli culture, the Copts may start thinking about having similar feelings for Arabs and their language. --Lanternix 00:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: All this is irrelevant.  The purpose of this page is to discuss how to improve or expand the article.  If you feel the need to vent your frustrations, you can publish your own blog.  Slacker 10:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Of course all this is irrelevent, yet must be addressed in face of the tone of blame directed towards Copts on this page. You don't have to be part of the conversation if you don't like. As for the natives being peaceful, have you not heard about the resistance the Egyptians put against the Arabs, in spite of the embargo set by the Byzantines about providing the natives with weapons? While the coward Byzantines ran away, Egyptians like Yoannis of Samanoud and later Mina Ben Bokira and the Beshmurites gave the Arabs a hell of a time and defended their land, until the latters resorted to treachery and then performed an organized an ethnic cleansing against the Egyptians, many in the Delta. The problem I see with you is that you just repeat what people say all the time with no scrutiny or consideration of the other side of the story. --Lanternix 05:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course the history written by the Arabs says they invaded the country without war. This is the only way they can legitimize the invasion, that is, to pretend they came to help the Egyptians and that the Egyptians accepted them with open arms and threw flowers on them. This is vey mich far from being the truth. If you'd like to know more, you can read about this period from non-Arab sources, be it Egyptian Christian (Coptic) or Western. I don't like to say Muslim vs Christian (although you're correct in saying that all the Arabs who invaded Egypt were Muslims) because religion is a matter of conviction, and later on many Egyptians converted to Islam, for one reason or the other. These are equally Egyptian to today's Copts. But the remnants of the Arab invaders MUST respect Egypt's peculiar identity, history and civilization because this is the land where they live. If they don't like it and if they prefer some Arabian identity over it, then they can go enjoy it somewhere else. These are the facts. You need not to delve into "living in peace" talk, this is not what this article is about. Oh, and by the way, most of your information is blatantly wrong, as Egyegy mentioned to you on my page. I sriously suggest you get your information from less-biased sources, and that you talk with them Egyptians of all religious backgrounds to get some of your facts straight. --Lanternix 04:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: lol ya Lanternix, it looks like I've been outed with my longstanding  mission to distract you from the big Arabist plot to wipe Egypt off the map of the earth. Maybe you should join your Arab co-religionist in her gezirt elme'iz to really get a taste of "living in peace". Oh wait I forgot, they behead Christians there last time I checked, unless you're American, in which case you're worshiped like a god. Egyegy 01:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Be honest whats going on in Egypt today? Who is doing this to the Coptic christians? The Arabs (you already said we dont exist in Egypt), so who is oppressing you! I am pretty sure you saw all the tears and cries on youtube, are these people lying? or is their someone causing them that horror?--Skatewalk 16:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Slacker on Copts

message: * 70% of the Patriachs in the last 500years are ethnic Arabs (Ghassanid, Mashrouki, Ghaythi) tribes. The rest are of varied origins, they speak Arabic in the disapora and home. 
* Maronite is a religious sect, So you can't generalize Maronites, just because a certain Maronite will claim being a certain ethnicity (Maronites can't speak as a group. Many ethnic Arabs among the Maronites tried to impose the Arab identity on them (they will tell you we are ethnic Arabs, we speak Arabic anywhere we go! and try to generalize it on all Maronites), Go to Phoenicia.org you will hear claims that Maronites are not Aramean, Syriac or Arab and plain simple Phoenicians (which the website claims are not Semites!)! Go to the Arameans they will tell you they speak Aramiac in church they are. The Maronites fought as unified group in the first half of the Lebanese war (faranjea and Douia factors showed the ethnic Arab vs Euro diffrences in the religious sector in certain periods of the war), They switched alliances from Israel to Syria to Saudi today!
* Copts are an ethnic group (African-Egyptian), I personally dont think they have to do anything with the Arabs or Semites at all (especially the Christian Copts)
*Maronites and Copts is used by antiArabs in a wrong way. Some Americans actually think the Maronites = all christians in Lebanon! (catholic practice thanks to France promotion of their allies in colonial Lebanon, in return the Orthodox _closely related to the Copts of Egypt are never mentioned, because they don't follow the Western agenda)--Skatewalk 19:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Most Maronites are Arabs>>>

message: There is no dispute under international law that the West Bank is under Israeli military occupation and not merely "presence" (see Wikipedia article West Bank).  This is an encyclopedia article, not an Israeli government press release. Slackerlawstudent 02:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Edits 

message: Middle Eastern Christians are not ethnic Arabs for the most part.סרגון יוחנא 19:57, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  There are very few "Arab" Christians 

message: First of all I think the most broadest definition of an Arab is any person (be it african or white or whatever) that speaks Arabic as a first language (native language). Tariq's native language is Syriac, not Arabic. Being part of a certian political party does not change your ethnicity; this is silly. He belongs to the Chaldean Catholic Church; a non-arab church. Unless you have a direct quote from him claiming to be an arab, then you should not generalize him as arab. Chaldean 14:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tariq Aziz

message: The Identity section of the article begins with the following statement:
*Historically, a number of minority Christian sects that were persecuted as heretical under Byzantine rule (such as Monophysites) actually began to enjoy more religious freedom under initial Muslim rule than they had under Byzantine (Orthodox Christian) rule. This tolerance however waxed and waned, not lasting for very long.
This statement is far from being true. Even the monophysites usffered under initial Arab Muslim invasions. For instance, the Copts, being called Monophysites (the term itself is erroneous and should be changed to Myaphysites), were persecuted, burned and killed by the troops of Amr Ibn El Ass (the Arab leader who invaded Egypt). Historical sources written by both Muslims (example: Al Makrizi) and Christians (example: John of Nikius) agree on this fact.
I will remove the above statement within the span of two weeks if no one disagrees with this view.
Thanks.--Lanternix 18:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Identity

message: The following sentence is incomplete considering the source given:
In Syria, Christians formed just under 15% of the population: about 2.7 million people, in the 1960 census, but no newer census has been taken. Latest estimates put them at about 10% of the population, due to enduring Islamization and subsequent Christian emigration. About 1.6% or 100,000 of all Palestinians are Christian [12],
One just needs to look at the article to see that not only the Christian emigration is due to Islamisation, but to the Israeli occupation as well. I don't know if the author of this sentence was biased or if it was merely an omission, but I'm correcting it. --Despanan 01:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Palestinian Christians 

message: Lets hear both sides of the arguement. Chaldean 06:58, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What is an Christian arab?

message: As a Copt, I know for a fact that Copts do not consider themselve Arabs. I cannot find any sources online that state this per say. But the opinion is evident from any online Coptic discussion about this particular issue. It's also evident from the fact that all history books written by Copts refer to the Copts as Egyptians, while they refer to the Arabs as the invaders of Egypt, making a clear distinction between both ethnic groups.
Can anyone with knowledge about Egypt/Copts back me on this please?
Thanks. --Lanternix 18:40, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your pretty much right. The most clear cut definition of an ethnic group is a group of people that share a common language; which the Copts and also to a certain extent the Maronites do. Chaldean 19:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

text: As I understand it, its not uncommon for Chaldean Iraqis to speak Arabic as their first language rather than Syriac, 0 where did you get this from? Syriac is spoken by the vast majority of Chaldeans. Chaldean 03:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've met Iraqi Chaldean Catholics who speak to each other in Arabic.  I assumed they were people from places like Baghdad and Basra rather than the north, but I will certainly yield to your knowledge on this subject. Slacker 04:24, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes Chaldeans often do this, but that doesn't mean they dont know Syriac. The reason they do this is speaking in Arabic is alot easier (ie easier to communicate) then in Syriac, since Syriac has alot of variability from origins of one village/area to another. This is a very common practice, but that doesn't change their ethnicity. Chaldean 13:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copts vs Arabs 

message: Arab Christians today can not be an article Arab Christians is better definition. Arab Christians today can be part of this article but not the main article since Christianity is related to ancient Arabs such as Ghassanid, Lakhmids,and people of Najran and Yemen.--Aziz1005 15:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge Arab Christians today 

message: The article currently states that if anyone could not pay jizya, then he were to face execution. It then cites 4 sources, anf they are all highly biased, anti-islamic websites. Such a statement should refer to a historical source, or at least, an unbiased website. If one cannot site reliable sources at wikipedia, then he should know that his statements will be deleted. So i have deleted it. Please, cite reliable sources from now on. Hamid-Masri 12:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Execution? 

message: Some people asked for my references, most Maronites do not identify as Arabs:
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#Origins
* http://amalid.com/prominent_lebs/Gubran_Khalil_Gubran/AMU_to_Powell.htm
* http://www.aina.org/guesteds/20060210113623.htm
* http://lebanesewbass.blogspot.com
* http://www.petitiononline.com/NotArab/petition.html
I'll stop here, short of many other references. Enjoy the reading. --Lanternix 00:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well then. I have removed all the Prominent Arab Christians. --SkyWalker 16:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maronites are NOT Arabs 

message: in syria the government claims that they are 10 % of the population are chritians and in syria they are 18000000 so how it is one million , it is more
:I'll do the changes according to (page 33 of كتاب الطوائف المسيحية في سوريا,نشأتها تطورها تعدادها,سمير عبده) Christians of Syria are 1526997 (estimation of 2000) this means they are around 1.5 million; more than 40% of them are followers of the Greek Orthodox Church and then around 18% are Armenians (Orthodox and Catholic) the rest are followers of other churches such as (Greek Catholic,Syriac Orthodox,Evangelical,Latin and Other churches)--Aziz1005 22:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry my bad :) I counted Armenians and Assyrians as Arab --Aziz1005 22:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Syria

message: The section on Arab Christians in Israel is clearly biased; it points out that they are more successful and educated than Israeli Muslims - this is true, but of course it is equally true for Christians in nearly all Arab countries, especially Israel's majority Muslim Arab neigbors such as Syria, Jordan, and the Palestinian territories.  The fact that this fact is stated for Israel alone gives the clear but false impression that this tolerance is an Israeli exception and that neigboring Arab countries persecute their Christians. Either delete this fact from the paragraph on Israel or mention it in reference to the other countrys as well.Arab Christians Greek1979 07:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israeli Arab Christians  

message: Please stop shoving them into the CHristian Arab article, we all know that they are:
* Ethnic Africans, who never had a Semitic or Arab past.
* They stop using Arabic once they are outside the Arab world.
===Maronites===
* Some politicaly motivated Maronites will claim an Aramean, Syriac or even Phoenician identity. However, those are few and not living among us! The Arabs have their history and presence in the Maronite church. Maronite is religious sect not an ethnicity!.--Skatewalk 04:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Egyptian Christians not Arab

message: * Some politicaly motivated Maronites will claim an Aramean, Syriac or even Phoenician identity. However, those are few and not living among us! The Arabs have their history and presence in the Maronite church. Maronite is religious sect not an ethnicity!.--Skatewalk 04:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Maronites

message: ::Skatewalk, the purpose of this article is to describe this term as it is used in the real world.  It's not supposed to delve into people's genetic make-up or other kinds of personal opinions, otherwise it would be original research.  I don't consider Copts to be Arabs either, but it's a fact that the term has frequently been used to cover all Arab-speaking Christians, including Egyptian ones. Slacker 08:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I beg to differ. Wikipedia is about presenting the correct information, not about repeating and reiterating the misconceptions of the ignorant few. I agree with Skatwalk that all mentions of Copts and Egyptians (except for the bedouin minority of Sinai) must be removed from Arab articles --Lanternix 12:43, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

text: You claimed before that the Ashraaf are 30% of the population and I asked you for your references. You failed to provide any. Then I showed you how little credibility does someone's claim of being a descendent of the Ashraaf have. And I gave you examples of Saddam Hussein and Gadhafi and Bakri all claiming this, and it was later discovered that they paid money to obtain fake certificate linking them to the Arab invaders of Egypt (we'll get to that in a sec). I also explained to you that the only poeple who have lived in isolation from the Egyptians are the Bedouins (of course any article on Egypt should also take the Nubians into account, since they are not ethnic Egyptians, but this has little relevence for an article on Arabs). Until today, the Bedouin Arab culture expresses a condescending attitude towards Egyptian farmers (probably their most famous adage is: armiha lel temsah wala adiha lel fallah aka. I'd rather throw [my daughter] to the crocodile than give her to a farmer [to marry]). So such people living in isolation have really nothing to do with Egyptians. They are only citizens of the modern Republic of Egypt rather than ethnic Egyptians. This clearly does not apply to the so-called Asharf. When some Arabs invaded Egypt hundreds of years ago, Egypt's native population were already numbering millions (refer to Gamal Hamdan's book about Arab immigration to Egypt for more references, or to books by Iris Habib el-Masri and other historians). And not all Arabs who invaded the country, either with Amr ibn el-Ass or later immigrations from Arabia, remained, since they went on to invade North Africa, Sudan and Spain. So the relatively few Arabs who came were assimilated into the Egyptian culture and gene pool. No one can prove that these Arabs remained in isolation, did not intermarry with Egyptians, and produced those who, today, call themselves Asharf. This simply did not happen. So the same way Egyptains in Ancient Egypt intermarried with non-Egyptians, Egyptians in Hellenistic Egypt intermarried with Greeks, and modern Egyptians intermarried with Europeans and Levantines, those in the early Middle Ages intermarried with Arabs and assimilated them into their gene pool. Simple math can prove that today's Egyptian population, although with some outside influence, has retained its authentic Egyptian identity. Refer to the identity section of the Egypt article and see for yourself how Egyptians, until 60 years ago, viewed themselves: Egyptians not Arabs! Only when Nasser's propaganda came to power did Egypt's name changed to Arab Republic of Egypt. He even completely banned people from calling Egypt as Egypt, and rather called the country the Southern region of the United Arab republic!!! This is NOT something that by any means reflect the Egyptians' notion of themselves, but rather an imposed doctrine. And no one said that the Ashraf or the Bedouins are ruling Egypt. Only some brain-washed remenants of Nasser's time. But this will change very soon as more and more people become disillusioned and realize how catastrophic Nasser and his pan-Arabist ideology were and still are for Egypt. I hope this helps --Lanternix 00:26, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Copts

message: ::Skatewalk, the purpose of this article is to describe this term as it is used in the real world.  It's not supposed to delve into people's genetic make-up or other kinds of personal opinions, otherwise it would be original research.  I don't consider Copts to be Arabs either, but it's a fact that the term has frequently been used to cover all Arab-speaking Christians, including Egyptian ones. Slacker 08:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You make it sound like the Copts are bad people because they denounce Arab identity! Do they have to love and worship people who invaded their country and attempted to destroy their identity, erasing their language and treating them as slaves in the country of their forefathers???!!! What sort of logic is that? Of course they have every right to denounce an identity and a language that were forced upon them but (and again I repeat, and go look for that in your history books) naked un-educated Bedouin Arabs! And I stand firm by my words. When Iraqis being "proud" of American English and American culture, or when Palestinians start being "proud" of Hebrew language and Zionist Israeli culture, the Copts may start thinking about having similar feelings for Arabs and their language. --Lanternix 00:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: All this is irrelevant.  The purpose of this page is to discuss how to improve or expand the article.  If you feel the need to vent your frustrations, you can publish your own blog.  Slacker 10:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Of course all this is irrelevent, yet must be addressed in face of the tone of blame directed towards Copts on this page. You don't have to be part of the conversation if you don't like. As for the natives being peaceful, have you not heard about the resistance the Egyptians put against the Arabs, in spite of the embargo set by the Byzantines about providing the natives with weapons? While the coward Byzantines ran away, Egyptians like Yoannis of Samanoud and later Mina Ben Bokira and the Beshmurites gave the Arabs a hell of a time and defended their land, until the latters resorted to treachery and then performed an organized an ethnic cleansing against the Egyptians, many in the Delta. The problem I see with you is that you just repeat what people say all the time with no scrutiny or consideration of the other side of the story. --Lanternix 05:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course the history written by the Arabs says they invaded the country without war. This is the only way they can legitimize the invasion, that is, to pretend they came to help the Egyptians and that the Egyptians accepted them with open arms and threw flowers on them. This is vey mich far from being the truth. If you'd like to know more, you can read about this period from non-Arab sources, be it Egyptian Christian (Coptic) or Western. I don't like to say Muslim vs Christian (although you're correct in saying that all the Arabs who invaded Egypt were Muslims) because religion is a matter of conviction, and later on many Egyptians converted to Islam, for one reason or the other. These are equally Egyptian to today's Copts. But the remnants of the Arab invaders MUST respect Egypt's peculiar identity, history and civilization because this is the land where they live. If they don't like it and if they prefer some Arabian identity over it, then they can go enjoy it somewhere else. These are the facts. You need not to delve into "living in peace" talk, this is not what this article is about. Oh, and by the way, most of your information is blatantly wrong, as Egyegy mentioned to you on my page. I sriously suggest you get your information from less-biased sources, and that you talk with them Egyptians of all religious backgrounds to get some of your facts straight. --Lanternix 04:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: lol ya Lanternix, it looks like I've been outed with my longstanding  mission to distract you from the big Arabist plot to wipe Egypt off the map of the earth. Maybe you should join your Arab co-religionist in her gezirt elme'iz to really get a taste of "living in peace". Oh wait I forgot, they behead Christians there last time I checked, unless you're American, in which case you're worshiped like a god. Egyegy 01:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Be honest whats going on in Egypt today? Who is doing this to the Coptic christians? The Arabs (you already said we dont exist in Egypt), so who is oppressing you! I am pretty sure you saw all the tears and cries on youtube, are these people lying? or is their someone causing them that horror?--Skatewalk 16:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Slacker on Copts

message: * 70% of the Patriachs in the last 500years are ethnic Arabs (Ghassanid, Mashrouki, Ghaythi) tribes. The rest are of varied origins, they speak Arabic in the disapora and home. 
* Maronite is a religious sect, So you can't generalize Maronites, just because a certain Maronite will claim being a certain ethnicity (Maronites can't speak as a group. Many ethnic Arabs among the Maronites tried to impose the Arab identity on them (they will tell you we are ethnic Arabs, we speak Arabic anywhere we go! and try to generalize it on all Maronites), Go to Phoenicia.org you will hear claims that Maronites are not Aramean, Syriac or Arab and plain simple Phoenicians (which the website claims are not Semites!)! Go to the Arameans they will tell you they speak Aramiac in church they are. The Maronites fought as unified group in the first half of the Lebanese war (faranjea and Douia factors showed the ethnic Arab vs Euro diffrences in the religious sector in certain periods of the war), They switched alliances from Israel to Syria to Saudi today!
* Copts are an ethnic group (African-Egyptian), I personally dont think they have to do anything with the Arabs or Semites at all (especially the Christian Copts)
*Maronites and Copts is used by antiArabs in a wrong way. Some Americans actually think the Maronites = all christians in Lebanon! (catholic practice thanks to France promotion of their allies in colonial Lebanon, in return the Orthodox _closely related to the Copts of Egypt are never mentioned, because they don't follow the Western agenda)--Skatewalk 19:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Maronites are >>>

message: Troy, can you tell me whats the difference between an Egyptian who claims to be an Arab from the muslims prophet lineage and a Christian Egyptian living in Europe or the USA?, because the Egyptian identity article claims they are the same! both are Egyptian and I am pretty sure the Ashraaf in Egypt are proud Arabs. Maybe the Egyptian identity article needs to be fixed so the Non Arabs dont get confused with the Arabs.
Every edit seems anti-Arab, when some posters clearly insult Arabs and start an artile claiming that Arabs dont exist in Egypt!--Skatewalk 03:56, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Copts and Arabs in Egypt