Talk:British queen mothers

message: Is this worthwhile as a separate page from Dowager Queens?  For instance, we note that there was only one Lancastrian queen mother.  This is true, but there was an additional Lancastrian dowager Queen, Queen Joan. john k 22:46, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Then maybe you shouldn't be trying to tell us how to spell our words.  I don't know if "präsumtiv" is a word in German (it's not in Leo, which makes me dubious), but I do know that the word in English is "presumptive."  What's the issue here? john k 13:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Indeed. john k 15:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Anyone in any doubt as to whether "presumptive" is an English word, can check a dictionary.  "heir presumptive" is a set phrase with a specific meaning: and is defined here by that same dictionary Morwen - Talk 13:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: Isn't the main noun 'Queen', a former Queen Consort, nonetheless still a 'Queen' who is mother to the current Sovereign.  'Mother' seems to be the modifier, and Queen seems to be the noun.  Eddo 18:26 , 7 December 2006 (UTC)
:An interesting argument, but I think that we have to go by general usage.  I can't find any example of the phrase "Queens mother" in this sense (as opposed to say a mother living in the borough of Queens, New York).--Poetlister 22:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ooh! Oooh! Grammar nerd alert!
Poetlister is right. The construction Eddo appears to be thinking of is the one that produces such delights as "courts martial" & "mothers-in-law". "Mother" is the modifier, but it's a noun, not an adjective, and thus can create the plural as it stands, "Queen Mothers" (the only similar example I can think of is "lieutenant governors"). If the title was "Queen Maternal", it would be "Queens Maternal", but that would sound sillier than titles do normally.
Pointless grammar lesson over, Parce out.
--Parcequilfaut 03:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Shouldn't it be Queens Mother

message: See the State Prayers for just one example of the official use of "Queen Mother" as a title. There have been four: Henrietta Maria (as "Queen Mary, the Queen Mother" 1662-1669); Alexandra (1910-1925); Mary (1936-1952) and Elizabeth (1952-2002). DrKay 12:14, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official use of "Queen Mother" 

message: I have thoroughly scoured Google and Google Books results, and it is now clear that "Queen Mothers" is far more likely to be correct than "Queens Mother" - 53,000+ hits for "Queen Mothers" compared to 724 hits for "Queens Mother" (some of which referred to mothers who live in the NY borough of Queens). See also citations set forth above:
*The Literary Digest History of the World War, p. 289, "Two Queen mothers on whom President Wilson called while in Europe in 1918..."
*Henry B. Wheatley, Peter Cunningham, London Past and Present: Its History, Associations, and Traditions, p. 271, "They passed that building which of old Queen Mothers were designed to hold"
*Elna K. Solvang, A Woman's Place is in the House, p. 85, "Information about the deeds of the kings — and possibly the deeds of the queen mothers — is said to be found in the Annals of the Kings".
And some additional:
*Jenny Wormald, Mary, Queen of Scots: Politics, Passion and a Kingdom Lost, p. 50, "it is therefore something of an irony that she had to wait for twelve years,  until 1554, and stage a successful coup, before obtaining the place which earlier queen mothers had immediately enjoyed".
*Leo G. Perdue, Proverbs, p. 269, "Queen mothers, while possessing great influence because they bore and reared the male heir apparent to the throne, rarely ever came to sit on the thrones..."  
*Sydney Wayne Jackman, A Stranger in the Hague: The Letters of Queen Sophie of the Netherlands, p. 155, "Queen Mothers seem to be wicked everywhere, but this one is now in a most dreadful situation". 
*Catherine Coquery-Vidrovitch, African Women: A Modern History, p. 37, "The important role played by queen mothers or their equivalents, whether in a matrilineal or patrilineal society, ..."
*Elisabeth Meier Tetlow, Women, Crime, and Punishment in Ancient Law and Society, p. 151, "Although there were no defined political roles for queen mothers... Queen mothers had treasurers and stewards of their possessions.
*Carol Ann Newsom, Sharon H. Ringe, Women's Bible Commentary, p. 120, "For Judah's twenty kings, eleven queen mothers are named".
*Deborah Levine Gera, Warrior Women: The Anonymous Tractatus de Mulieribus, p. 14, "This last group of women are not only the widows of kings, and (in some instances) independent rulers, but queen mothers, parents of the reigning or future king". 
*Barbara N. Ramusack, The Indian Princes and Their States, p. 179, "Numerous less well known queen mothers served as regents." 
*Imbert de Saint-Amand, The Court of the Empress Josephine, p. 304, "Then there are the apartments of the queen mothers... In the bedroom of the queen mothers an altar was raised where the Vicar of Christ said mass".
*Heinz Duchhardt, Richard A. Jackson, David J. Sturdy, European Monarchy: Its Evolution and Practice from Roman Antiquity to Modern Times, p. 5, "...the queens or queen-mothers in France were far more than just the consorts or mothers of kings".
Per the above, Wikipedia convention dictates that we must follow the most widely accepted construction, which I am affecting now. Cheers! bd2412 T 04:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving to "Queen mothers" based on overwhelming evidence of predominant usage. 

message: This usage is in contradiction to the two links provided at the end of the article:
*English queens dowager
*Scottish queens dowager
SabreWolfy (talk) 19:07, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction 

message: "Anne died in 1485 and Richard followed her in death months later. "
How many months later ? That's not clear for me. 
--Andrea1984 14:00, 19. January  2008 (CET)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.47.190.10 (talk) 13:00, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Months 

message: Both the detailed account of why various queens and mothers were or were not Queen Mothers, and the section of what might happen in the future appear to represent Original Research (WP:OR).  Even the statement "Following is a list of women who, on the above definition, were entitled to be known as queen mother . . ." suggests that at least part of the list of Queen Mothers itself is also OR.  OR is to be avoided on WP. Agricolae (talk) 22:52, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original Research 

message: Since the split from English and British Queen mothers, this article has had a rather curious scope. Its title indicates that the article treats queens dowager, the prose indicates it only treats queen mothers, but in actual fact the article seems to indiscriminately discuss any woman who was the mother of a monarch. Scottish and English queens dowager suffer the same problems. What exactly should the scope of these articles be? BigNate37(T) 01:04, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved it. If the move is undone, do a requested move. DrKay (talk) 16:30, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scope problems 

message: The article says "A further condition is that the term "queen mother" applies only if a male monarch is married. If he is unmarried, his mother retains her title of queen. (This is analogous to the mother of a peer, who is called a dowager if the peer is married but not otherwise.)". I don't think that is the case and I don't understand the analogy. We're not dealing with an official title here but with a style that may (or may not) be used. I think Queen Mary was entitled to the style (which she never used) the moment Edward VIII became King. From the reference of the page Queen mother "A queen mother is defined as "A Queen dowager who is the mother of the reigning sovereign" by both the Oxford English Dictionary and Webster's Third New International Dictionary." Gerard von Hebel (talk) 15:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, the article says: "A queen mother retains the style of Her Majesty that she enjoyed as queen, but there is no further coronation ceremony to reflect her changed status." Her status doesn't actually change I think. She was titular Queen and remains just that. Her title doesn't change. Her style will, whether she actually uses the the word "Queen-mother in that style or not, but that has no official consequences. Also "Her Majesty" is not a style but technically an appellation. I think the sentence may be redundant. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 16:44, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Must the son be married? Status change

message: I have reverted "In her last year of her life, she was Queen Grandmother." with the summary " She was not the grandmother of a queen, and "Queen Grandmother" is not a recognised title". The summary was misleading, because I though the sentence had been applied to Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, not to Mary of Teck. It is true that Mary of Teck died after the accession of her granddaughter Elizabeth II, so if "Queen Grandmother" were a recognised term then she would qualify. However, "Queen Grandmother" does not appear in the Oxford English Dictionary, and it is not mentioned in its entry for Queen mother. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:25, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  The technical term in English (but not a recognised formal title in the UK) for someone in Mary's 1952-1953 situation is "Queen Dowager".Romomusicfan (talk) 12:40, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Queen Grandmother 

message: it is maybe a silly question from an ordinary guy from germany - but I would kindly ask you to explain to me: what is her title as she is the mother of "queen consort presumptive" (kate middleton)? and how will the title change if willy onces becomes king? will she be "queen mum" als well or is there a certain other title? --Ravalejo (talk) 21:59, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: She has no title and will have no title. A queen mother must at one point have been married to the king. DrKay (talk) 17:01, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  It might be worth mentioning that Katherine Princess of Wales will be Queen Mother if she outlives her husband the future King William V (currently William Prince Of Wales.)Romomusicfan (talk) 12:34, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  It would also require William to become king – he might pre-decease his father, or the monarchy might be abolished. This too remote from the present to mention in the article. Wikipedia does not predict the future, see WP:CRYSTALBALL. We should wait for William to become king before we mention this. Verbcatcher (talk) 10:07, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carole Middleton