Talk:Babur/Archive 1

message: The below comments were made on the original nomination, and were used to improve the article for another nomination. It later was promoted good article status! Congratulations and keep up the great editting! Highway 20:57, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: hehe, don't worry constructive criticism is very much appreciated! --Irishpunktom\talk 15:27, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA (Failure) 

message: The biography here is seriously flawed. Babur is considered a descendent of Genghis Khan and Timurlane, both of whom are Mongol.  The term turkic that most historians use represent dialect and not ethnicity as there is a wide swath of peoples who speak a Turkic tongue (either by adoption, through assimilation, or through force) but are ethnically divergent.Steelhead 01:17, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The claim of descendancy from Genghis Khan is considered doubtful by most historians. Timur claimed Mongol heritage, but it is more accurate to describe his people as "Turco-Mongols" -- Turkic-speaking people who adopted the nomadic warrior lifestyle of the Mongols. It is doubtful that they are genetically related to Genghis Khan's Mongols. Acsenray 12:58, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Biography

message: please read the first paragraph of the encyclopedia brittanica and columbia encyclopedia; it is free onlineKennethtennyson 02:32, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: please read encylopedias

message: * Babur himself considered the term 'Mongol' (مغل) to be somewhat derogatory, and it was in fact a misnomer applied by sixteenth century Europeans to the rulers of India, possibly because of memories of the earlier Mongol invasions. Thackston writes:
"History has conspired to rob Babur not only of his fame as a Central Asian sovereign over the kingdom of Kabul for much longer than he was in the subcontinent, but also of his primary identity as a Timurid [ie. a Turco-Mongol dynast from the settled regions of Turkestan ] by labelling him and his successors as 'Mughals' - that is, Moghuls, or Mongols - an appellation that would not have pleased him in the least. In India the dynasty always called itself Gurkani, after Temür's title Gurkân, the Persianised form of the Mongolian kürügän, 'son-in-law', a title he assumed after his marriage to a Genghisid princess. Nonetheless, Europeans, recognising that there was some connection between Babur's house and the Mongols but ignorant of the precise relationship, dubbed the dynasty with some variant of the misnomer Moghul (Mogol, Mogul, Maghol etc.) and made the name synonymous with greatness." Wheeler M. Thackston The Babur-nama (New York) 2002 pxivi
Thackston uses the term 'Turco-Mongolian' throughout to describe Babur's ethnicity, insofar as that is relevant. He certainly spoke and wrote in Turkish. The term 'Moghul' properly refers to the ruling dynasty of Moghulistan or Jatah (roughly speaking northern Chinese Turkestan, or Dzungaria), which was ruled by descendants of Genghis Khan's son Chagatai and is hence sometimes known as the Chagatai Khanate. Its history is somewhat obscure, but the principal source is Mirza Muhammad Haidar Dughlat's Ta'rikh-e Rashidi. The author of this work was Babur's cousin, and on pxliii of Thackston's introduction to the Babur-nama he quotes from p97 of the Elias & Denison-Ross translation, which illuminates at once the unity of culture amongst the Turco-Persian Timurid elite, and the meaning given by contemporaries to the name 'Moghul'  
"I heard that Yunus Khan [one of the sons of the lord of Moghulistan] was a Moghul, and I concluded that he was a beardless man, with the ways and manners of any other Turk of the desert. But when I saw him, I found he was a person of elegant deportment, with a full beard and a Tajik face, and such a refined speech and manner, is seldom to be found even in a Tajik."
A distinction thus has to be made between notional ethnicity, (turco-mongol) and culture & language (turco-persian). Sikandarji 11:01, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Babur as a 'Mongol'

message: I noticed that an anon has categorized this under :Category:Gay, lesbian or bisexual people but I think that should be supported by some discussion in the body of the article. Haiduc 02:14, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Love life 

message: Apologies for the lack of Comment on my edits - they were there when i tried it first, but the submission failed.  It was my third attempt at submission when the edit actually succeeded, and by then I was not adding the proper comments - Apologies. --Irishpunktom\talk 17:15, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Comments

message: Someone added that he was aided by iranians.  i hope you can appreciate why i removed this, and also, the aid from the Persian Shah is mentioned later. --Irishpunktom\talk 23:29, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: not Iranian

message: Substituted at 20:05, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment