Talk:Tuskegee Airmen/Archive 1

message: Does anyone know where I can get the movie Tuskegg Airmen? 24.215.122.139 (Talk) at 17:23, 10 February 2005
:I recommend Utorrent --Gbleem 11:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Starting Question

message: My library is in a shambles, but it would be nice to add the names of some of the other prominent members of the group, there were several well-known and decorated officers......--Pmeisel 19:33, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Names of the more prominent flyers 

message: I am not a wiki admin, just a writer, but ever since this page entered my watchlist, i have seen regular instances of racialist (anti-African American) vandalism. I reverted one such attack today, after several hours during which i reported it, hoped a bot or an admin would fix it, and saw it was still online in candalized form. Is there is some standard delimiting the number of racialist attacks per month/year/whatever that must be endured before admins give thought to the semi-protction of a page? I counted 10 revesions due to racialist vandalism on this page since January 1, 2006. Catherineyronwode 23:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does this page need semi-protection? 

message: The previous entry contained some factual errors.  The Tuskegee Airmen may have flown P-39s in the US, but I can find no indication that they flew Airacobras overseas.  Dr. Frank Olynyk's Mediterranean Theater victory list for USAAF units shows only P-40s, 47s (April-May '44), and 51s.
The figure of 400 German aircraft destroyed is not supported by any source I have found.  The four squadrons' cumulative total of aerial victories is 113.  Claims for grounded German planes are unknown.
The episode in which a German destroyer was reported sunk by gunfire was apparently an Italian patrol boat run aground.  I cannot find the source right now, but it was in a naval journal.  I'll see if I can relocate.  At any rate, no such German destroyer appears in any compilation of Kriegsmarine losses in Italy, and it has never been identified. The ship's name or number would be welcome information. Meanwhile, the episode seems a simple case of misidentification--common in combat.
Here's an Axis history chronology for June 44, month of the event, with no mention:
http://www.feldgrau.com/june.html
I believe that the TV movie stated that the 332nd shot down "3 of the 8 German jets destroyed by the allies," and the claim has been accepted at face value. In fact, total USAAF fighter claims alone ran about 160, plus bomber gunners and the RAF jet claims.  See Wm. Hess,  "German Jets Vs. the Army Air Force" (1996).
Problem Solved
Turns out that the "destroyer" was a WW I Italian torpedo boat redesignated TA-22 by the Germans.  There were in fact no German destroyers in the Mediterranean--no mission for them.
http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/captured/torpedoboats/ta/ta22/index.html
::Please sign your entries. The 332nd initially flew P-39s, except the 99th (P-40s), while with the 12th AF. They were not an escort group at this point and so did not engage in air-to-air combat. But they did fly P-39s in Italy. In June they converted to the P-51 and began their escort role--all of the claims for the 100th, 301st, and 302nd date after 6-9-44. The official kill credits are 108.5 but this figure may have been revised upward, since Buddy Archer was originally credited with only 4 kills. The highest scoring group against German jets was the 357th Fighter Group (Yeager's group) with 18. TV movies are entertainment; an encyclopedia should strive for truthfulness, wherevr that goes.--Buckboard 08:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Equipment and Statistics 

message: That statement requires elaboration.  As written, it is false.  Hispanics were fairly common in military aviation (the first US airman killed at Pearl Harbor was Ensign Manuel Gonzales) and there were some Indians (Lt. Hiawatha Mohawk flew P-51s.) --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.2.134.240 (talk • contribs) 
* Thanks for the notice. I'll make the changes. --Dystopos 18:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah but were the white hispanics or brown hispanics? Considering the complexities of racial terms it may be safer to just say blacks were not allowed. --Gbleem 12:03, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Previous Pilots All White?

message: I am not going to edit this page or criticize it given the factual controversy which seems irrelevant to me re the TA reputation, but it deserves careful editing and then locking to prevent racist attacks. The central fact of the Tuskegee Airmenis the wonder that not only did they exist, but they won well-deserved honors against great odds. Historical accuracy is a sometimes elusive, especially when there's a movie around "based on a true story." The TA Airmen experience is not immune from the fog of war. You don't have to be perfect to be good or great.
"Never lost a bomber" is almost certainly wrong.  A historian for the "Tuskegee Airmen Inc." - William F. Holton -- does not believe that claim is true. There is a story (with an unfortunate numb headline) at the Washington Post for December 11, 2006 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/11/AR2006121100657.html) in which he says  Air Force records indicate at least a few bombers were shot down while under escort by the TA. His research meshes with that of Daniel Haulman of the Air Force Historical Research Agency at Maxwell-Gunter Air Force Base in Montgomery, Al. 
This is from that story. "The president of the Tuskegee Airmen Inc., retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Russell Davis, said he will no longer claim in speeches that the group never lost a bomber under its escort." Also "One mission report says that on July 26, 1944: "1 B-24 seen spiraling out of formation in T/A (target area) after attack by E/A (enemy aircraft). No chutes seen to open." A second report, dated Aug. 31, 1944, praises group commander Gen. Benjamin O. Davis Jr. by saying he "so skillfully disposed his squadrons that in spite of the large number of enemy fighters, the bomber formation suffered only a few losses." A third report says that on Sept. 12, 1944: "10 Me-109s attacked the rear of the bomber formation from below and left one B-17 burning, with 6 chutes seen to open."
The article concludes: " The only way to determine the group's true record is to scour the post-mission reports of bomber groups that were escorted by the Airmen's P-51 fighters. Alan Gropman, who teaches at the National Defense University in Washington, told the Advertiser that more research is needed, but added: "Even if they lost three or four bombers, it would still be minuscule compared to the losses incurred by white pilots who also escorted bombers."
That last comment is odd, because if there is a message from the Tuskegee Airmen story it is that the color of someone's skin does not indicate the quality of the man or woman. Followup stories from the AP 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/16/AR2006121600849.html  
in Mongomery cite interview with bomber pilot Warren Ludlum of NJ as confirming his b-24 was shot down while under Red Tail Escort.But Ludlum also says he " liked being escorted by them because of their aggressiveness. He said he knew he was being escorted by the Tuskegee Airmen on the day he was shot down because one of them, Starling B. Penn, was shot down at the same time and ended up in the same German prison camp as Ludlum."
Whatever their individual attitudes, it makes no sense to compare pilots based on race -- except that the pervasive racism have resulted in the TA being better trained and some of its pilots were more experienced than others -- of both races. The nature of the war varied by year, month, day and mission.  There is a possible explanation of how the myth started. It is possible that there are several reasons for the myth. But the TA includes roughly a  thousand pilots and more support. A fighter group would probably have operated 75 aircraft (can't be sure of the number without records) and the TA groups probably comprised 150 pilots not including rotations. Everyone doesn't know everything and mission stats would have been classified. Even the "good war" required heroes and sometimes a little polish were given to reality.
Bomber pilot Colin P. Kelly Jr, WWII's first American hero, did not win the Medal of Honor and he did not as reported sink the Battleship Haruna which was confused with the heavy cruiser Ashigara and which was not damaged by the attack of Kelly or four other B-17s. Both ships survived until near the end of the war. Although recommended for the Medal of Honor,  Kelly won a Distinguished Service Cross. His flying allowed most of his crew to esacape a badly damaged plane. The embellishment of a sunken battleship could have been deliberate as  a public moral booster or, just as likely an inaccurate report that was difficult to correct after the fact. 
A fair amount of assumed belief and printed material of WWII has turned out to be wrong in detail. The only way to even approach some reality on the TA would for the historians to comb through the TA mission reports whch is harder than it might seem. And to be thoroughly accurate, there would need to be a day to day matchup of Allied information with that of the Axis. What they will find is people who performed well under fire and who must have had bad days and good. Being  "ordianry" pilots under the circumstances was a great feat. A heart surgeon who never loses a patient is taking the hard cases. Is a pilot in a great airplane who holds off an opposiion pilot superior to one in a lesser plane who sometimes fails. 
Movies usually get things wrong, i.e "Pearl Harbor" was filled with errors/mistakes as was "Memphis Belle. But Pearl Harbor happened and the Memphis Belle flew its missions. The TA were in the European theater early and stayed late. They didn't win the war. They were part of winning the war despite everything which what makes them important. By being where they were, they did much to start changing thingsl, sometimes one person at a time. An example is at http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0202/crew.html
The claims about jet aircraft are just careless mistakes. Some may have believed that to be the case, but allied pilots learned reasonably well to cope with the German jets (and the v1 Buzz bomb). Despite their speed advantage, there were tradeoffs that could be exploited. One writer .  despite their speed and pilot advantage (good, experienced pilots, many aces, were assigned). Alllied pilots learned to ambush them on their landling glide paths, taking out 15  in one day according to one account. Ureliable engines killed some. Lack of fuel kept many aircraft on the ground in the late stages.
Was it a cruiser, a destroyer or a gunboat. The action report may say one thing and the reality be another. Misjudgments happen and can be easier than eathbound tpes thing.  A lot of mistakes were made and till are. The real mistake is to hang the TA's reputation on some myth while the reality is extraordinary as it is.
Some truly represensible whie racists were heroic pilots during the same war.Their success or lack of success in other cases did not change who they were. Getting the TA right is not embellishing a classic struggle. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.120.63.94 (talk) 07:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical Questions 

message: I don't see this in the main article, and I think it is important to pass along.
Tuskegee airmen included Afro-American pilots and crewmen who served in non-fighter roles as well as the much more well-known fighter-pilot role.  My son discovered this by accident as he researched the Tuskegee airmen for a school project.  He met with a retired Tuskegee Airmen at the local nursing home.  Arriving with the plan of interviewing a retired fighter pilot, he prepared questions about fighter pilot experiences, and printed out some material about the fighter squadrons.  Shortly after beginning the interview, he discovered that Mr. Charles G. Dunn had served as an artillery liason pilot, not a fighter pilot.  
In researching further, he also found that some Tuskegee airmen had served as bomber crew as well.  There's an interesting piece of history that isn't particularly well-known, and might be worthy of scholarly research.  When Sean has completed the school piece and the interview, I'll submit them for possible inclusion.  
212Mike 17:05, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not just Fighter Pilots 

message: I would caution against using African American in the article. I have few friends who are from Africa and are American, but they are white. In this case, we are emphasizing ethnicity other than white. I think it is important to point out that they are black, or instead say other than Caucasian. etc.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.5.174.20 (talk) 16:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Given the context of the article, I think it's quite clear that in this instance African American is referring to black Americans. nmw 07:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  African American or black? 

message: The new information about the bomber losses to enemy fighters needs to be clarified.  The paragraph says "...at least a few bombers were lost to enemy fire.."  That should be clarified to state "enemy fighters" or something to make it clear that the 25 value was due to fighters, and that there were others lost to ground fire (this has always been known).  As the paragraph stands now, it sounds as if these 25 bombers were the first known losses. --71.55.37.221 15:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point of clarificaiton.  I would encourage you to go ahead and make clarifying additions like that yourself, directly.  Not sure you need a discussion, as you had a clean idea of what you thought was useful.  For now, I went ahead and inserted "...fighter aircraft.." in there, as you suggested. - Thaimoss 19:17, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Thaimoss for adding the information in reference to the Facts and Trivia section of  the article but please cite the source of your information or it will have to be removed. --Signaleer 21:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. - Thaimoss 22:53, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarify paragraph

message: I just came across a passage in the middle of the "Combat" section which I am tagging as "dubious".
:"Although bomber groups would request Redtail escort when possible, few bomber crew members knew at the time that the Redtails were black."
Perhaps, but anybody familiar with military "scuttlebutt" would have to be skeptical of this assertion. Moreover, it's contradicted by statements in the first paragraph of the "Postwar" section. Anybody care to sort this out? 
Cgingold 23:24, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racial identity unknown to bomber crews? 

message: I'm just trying to submit some additional items I found on this subject, to fill out your "publications" section. (These were all found over on Amazon.com Note that I included Amazon links, because they often sell used, "out of print" books.)
* 332nd Fighter Group - Tuskegee Airmen (Aviation Elite Units) by Chris Bucholtz; Osprey publishing; paperback; 128 pages.  or . Find it at Amazon.com
* Black Knights: The Story of the Tuskegee Airmen by Lynn M. Homan and Thomas Reilly; Pelican Publishing Company; hardcover; 336 pages.  or . Find it at Amazon.com
* A-train; memoirs of a Tuskegee Airman by Lt. Col. Charles W. Dryden, USAF retired (with a foreword by Lt. Gen. Benjamin O. Davis, Jr., USAF, retired); University of Alabama Press; 440 pages.  or . Find it at Amazon.com
* Tuskegee Airman: The Biography of Charles E. McGee, Air Force Fighter Combat Record Holder by Charlene E. McGee, Phd.; Branden Books; 204 pages.  or . Find it at Amazon.com
* Red Tail Captured, Red Tail Free: The Memoirs of a Tuskegee Airman and POW by Alexander Jefferson, Lt. Col., USAF, ret. (with Lewis H. Carlson); Fordham University Press; 133 pages.  or . Find it at Amazon.com
* Tuskegee Airmen: The Men Who Changed a Nation by Charles E. Francis, 1st Lieutenant, Army Air Force and US Air Force Reserve. (Fourth edition: edited, revised, up-dated and expanded by Adolph Caso, Col. USAR); Branden Books; 500 pages.  or . Find it at Amazon.com
* Tuskegee's Heroes by Charlie and Ann Cooper; (featuring the aviation art of Roy La Grone); Zenith Press; 156 pages.  or . Find it at Amazon.com
* The Tuskegee Airmen: Black heroes of World War II by Jacqueline Harris; Dillon Pr (press?); 144 pages.  or . Find it at Amazon.com
* The Freeman Field Mutiny: A Tuskegee Airman Story by James C. Warren; Conyers Publishing Company; paperback; page length unknown.  or . Find it at Amazon.com
* Survival! A Purple Heart Tuskegee Airman by John Stewart Sloan, Sr.; Rutledge books; page length unknown.  or . Find it at Amazon.com
* The Tuskegee Airmen (We the People) by Philip Brooks; Compass Point Books; 48 pages; ages 9-12.  or . Find it at Amazon.com
* Flight: the story of Virgil Richardson, a Tuskegee Airman in Mexico by Ben Vinson III; Palgrave Macmillan; 224 pages.  or . Find it at Amazon.com
* The Tuskegee Airmen (Cornerstones of Freedom) by Linda and Charles George; Children's Press; 32 pages; ages 9-12.  or . Find it at Amazon.com
Wardster321 03:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional known publications 

message: * Home page of:  Red Tail Reborn -- this is a PBS documentary about efforts to restore a P-51C aircraft. See also the IMDb link.
Wardster321 05:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional known movies, DVD's, etc. 

message: Can anyone find any information about Mister Rogers's foster brother George? Was he really an instructor at the flight school? What was his last name? --Gbleem 11:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mister Rogers's foster brother George 

message: some free images that might be useful for this article are located here at the LOC. 140.247.240.181 23:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: free images

message: The addition of this section is unnecessarily dismissive of the accomplishments of the unit especially when the reader has nothing to gauge these numbers against.  So the unit had 25 bombers lost during its escorts: how does that compare with the rest of the Pursuit units?  Mfryc 15:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a matter of perspective, the two paragraphs that note the controversy are not subjective nor out of proportion to the main article. It appears that the original submissions have dealt with a popular myth that the "Red Tails" were able to protect their charges with no losses to the bomber fleets. No Tuskegee Airmen ever made this claim and the fact that a journalist posted an inaccurate account as the basis of this myth was presented. I agree that the Airmen were the "best" escorts in the European Theater and the remainder of the main article does "set the record straight." No one wants to re-write history but it is useful to explore controversial issues. IMHO Bzuk 16:27, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What comes across to me from the passage in question is, "They were good, but..."  Without any information presented comparing the Airmen to their peers showing how they were "the best," I stand by my statement of "dismissive."  I appreciate and concur with your feeling that these Airmen were the best in the European Theater, but I feel it is necessary to have verifiable numbers in order to compare them to their peers in order to validate that claim.  Yes, the boast of no bombers lost is the work of a Chicago newspaperman; yet that accolade, albeit fallacious, is firm in the legendarium of WWII (perhaps the tearing out of that page is what upset me). Mfryc 10:08, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As the numbers I'd cited above (25 bombers, 1500 missions) are disconnected and their product (unwittingly) specious, I have removed them (along with my quasi-expletive).  Apologies. Mfryc 10:20, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I concur with Bzuk. — BQZip01 — talk 21:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text:  I concur with Bzuk also (the May 21st post above). I first heard about the TA's "perfect record" years ago; and it seems to be accepted as fact by a lot of people, who perhaps learned of it on History Channel type documentaries over the years and took it at face value. It is important to at least mention the issue. It doesn't take anything away from the value of that fine unit.Engr105th 02:53, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Point of information: Has the outcome of the Air Force's reassessment in 2006 of the unit (as cited in the 7th paragraph under the Combat heading) been made available? Mfryc 10:45, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Very good question...in my experience, the tendency in the military would be to NOT advertise a reassessment if it was "negative". Especially for a unit like this from "the greatest generation" (WW2) in the winter of their lives. They'd probably just refrain from quoting a "perfect record" anymore, and let the serious historians make the "corrections" in their future works, i.e. books, historical novels, etc. The reassessment would be written up, but not offered up as news...By the way, I'm not certain the USAF ever claimed - officially - the TA had a perfect record (?). (Sorry about all the quotation marks; the exact words I'd like to use don't quite come to me at the moment)...Engr105th 23:30, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Question of No Bombers Lost