Talk:Revival Centres International

message: Contributors: Have not read this article in a long time, but it still suffers from picking bits and pieces of stuff from 20 to 30 years ago; bits and pieces of doctrine; and bits and pieces of policy/practice. There is no overarching overview.
This is the current "Contents"
1 Church Genealogy of Revival Centres International 
1.1 Early Beginnings of Revival Centres International 
2 Carn Brae 
3 Forum Theatre 
4 General Meeting Format 
5 Spiritual Gatherings and Practices 
6 Missions 
7 Revival Centres International's Statement of Beliefs 
8 The "British Israel" Identification and Racism Statements 
9 Second Coming Prophecies 
10 Revival Centres International Publications 
11 Doctrinal Schisms and Refining Church Identity 
11.1 Revision on Bible Numerics 
11.1.1 Past Bible Numerics thought 
11.1.2 Current Bible Numerics thought 
11.2 Revision on the Code of Conduct 
11.2.1 The historical intention of the Code of Conduct 
12 Certain Concerns were raised by some Former Members in the Whitehorse Gazette 
12.1 Reported Concerns Raised 
12.2 Reported Concerns Dismissed 
13 See also 
14 References 
15 External links 
How do major contributors feel (ie will I start a wiki-war) if we looked at a re-write that went along these lines (put forward to start ideas, not as the final answer - and yes, based on the structure of the Bahai article that natgoo referred to):
1 Doctrine & Beliefs 
 1.1 Salvation
 1.2 Statement of Beliefs
2 Demographics
 2.1 Headquarters
 2.2 World-wide
 2.3 Missions
 2.4 etc etc
3 Teachings 
 3.1 Summary 
 3.2 End Times
 3.3 Bible Numerics no longer taught
 3.4 etc etc
4 History 
 4.1 Beginnings 
  4.1.1 Melbourne (includes carn brae, whitehorse etc)
  4.1.2 Australia
  4.1.3 Papua New Guinea
  4.1.4 Africa
  4.1.5 etc etc
 4.2 Major Events
 4.3 Schisms
 4.4 etc etc
5 Practice 
 5.1 Meetings 
 5.2 Standards (ie spot for code of conduct stuff)
 5.3 Outreaching
 5.4 Events
 5.5 etc etc
6 Publications
 6.1 Voice of Revival 
 6.2 News 
 6.3 Talks 
 6.4 Newsletter
7 See also 
8 References 
9 External links 
Any thoughts?
Informed99 (talk) 23:53, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputed Article

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This page has been semi protected due to the continual deletion of large parts of this article by anonymous users. If there are legitimate problems with the content of the article, could those users now discuss them here? WjBscribe 01:59, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent unexplained deletions

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IT seems there are many disgruntled members with little facts about the organization.
::No doubt. However, there are also a number of former members who are not disgruntled, but who have amassed a considerable volume of knowledge about the organisation itself, and its teachings. I consider myself in this group, given that your church and its theology is the subject of my doctoral research. (Ian Thomason)Didaktikon (talk) 23:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of the information that's circulating about your group is inopportune, but much of it isn't. And as for whether or not the RCI falls under the rubric of "Christian" organisation would entirely depend on what one means by the term "Christian". (Ian Thomason)Didaktikon (talk) 23:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, alternate viewpoints also require a hearing. Otherwise, 'Wikipedia' serves no other purpose is this instance than to function as an on-line pro-RCI advertisement. (Ian Thomason)Didaktikon (talk) 23:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Did you mean to post this at Talk:The Revival Fellowship? That is where you have done most of your editing. Please don't make threats to disrupt Wikipedia because you have a different perspective, it's far more productive to add information to the article to present a more balanced view.. Natgoo 19:43, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I have been following both pages, I to am an ex member and references to cults are irrelevant. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.47.108.126 (talk) 20:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  continual editing 

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Looking at the diagram -- shouldn't the National Revival Crusade have arrows from the Assemblies of God and British Israel World Federation both going into it? I think that's really show how the AoG, and BI etc, fit into the picture. 58.179.233.5 11:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: diagram, and some comments

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There sadly appears to be some bias and ulterior motives in some of the revisions of this page beyong the established wiki ideal of improving articles so that an overall balanced and correct article is informative.
 
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Crunchynut I refer you to this, ironically already printed out on this page, "Be respectful to others and their points of view. This means primarily: Do not simply revert changes in a dispute. When someone makes an edit you consider biased or inaccurate, improve the edit, rather than reverting it."
 
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Removing links to well established, researched and written articles on wikipedia that further inform readers about a topic touched on in any page is not allowing balance in an otherwise informative article. I have rewritten the intro to include your obvious desire to prostelyse in a factual context, which includes some articles already written in this wiki. Your reverted intro comes close to being weasel words.
 
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Similarily removing criticism of the group and links to other webpages for no reason other than they are 'anti' or not 'official' webpages of the group involved is ridiculously biased, unbalanced and anti-wiki. The pages have multi, in some case disagreeing, sources who are willingly named and thus fit wiki guidelines better than the RCI 'official' source. Please refer to other religious articles on this site for other examples of disagreements concerning particular religious doctrine leading to balance in articles and an overall longer and better article.
 
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Wikipedia does not have 'pro' or 'anti' pages on any organisation and Crunchynut, you have no authority to demand the formation of them.
 
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Placing unfounded individual reasons concerning religious schisms in any article on wikipedia is also showing bias, this time in the negative. Unless you have something constructive to add to this article you are vandalising and ruining an article when you could actually be improving and adding balance.
 
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There are both negative and positive RCI forums on the internet so let's leave wikipedia out of the bashing/witnessing shall we?
 
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Quoth-the-craven 04:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral Point of View and some wikipedia guidelines 

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:Image:Survive82.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
 
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Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
 
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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
 
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BetacommandBot 05:24, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Survive82.gif

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I have fixed an edit by Seldon-au that stated that the doctrine of speaking in tongues (as being a nessecity) in Revival Centres gradually evolved over time to being a focus. I have altered this as it has always been a core beleif of RCI that speaking in tongues is the evidence that a person has recieved the Holy Spirit. Please let me know if there is evidence contrary to this. Floorwalker (talk) 23:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your view is wrong. The doctrine of "tongues" as a necessity wasn't the position of the RCI for the first three to four years of the movement's existance, a claim that can be proven by recourse to early editions of the VOR.Didaktikon (talk) 03:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Speaking in Tongues - Glossolalia as evidence of the Holy Spirit

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I have basically added sections that are relevant to the groups practice, beliefs and activities. Therefore you would see basic and fairly straight forward sections on General Meeting Format, Spiritual Gathering and Practices, Revival Centres International's Beliefs and Revival Centres International Publications. Most of their basic main approach are on their official website so I am very surprised that hardly anyone has developed it from the primary source as these information are basically a list of things that they do or have done. Its basic value is not even debatable.Topsaint (talk) 05:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional Sections

message: ====An emphasis on church members personal responsibility for their individual conduct====
After the 1995 schism and then change of leadership from Lloyd Longfield to Simon Longfield in 1998, Revival Centres Internationals had a revision on the Code of Conduct. It was found that most of the rules and regulations that were written in the code was based on many moral dilemmas concerning fornication and other behavioural problems that the people of the church faced. It was concluded that many rules and regulations contained in the code of conduct had not stressed enough the importance of personal ownership for each members’ actions and in practice had problems deemphasizing many other individual/external influence on each set of circumstances that church members faced. Therefore the code of conduct had the impossible ongoing problem of detailing every behavioural rule and consequences as there was always going to be new threats/issues to a person’s health spiritually, physically and mentally.
While the intention of the code of conduct was to address boarder areas of concerns that church members, especially young people, would find the most amount of pressure, misleading information or harm to their spiritual walk, the onus is now focused on the individual church members to " . . . work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). This means that each church member continues to make their own moral decision and behaviour (as before with further consideration to the revised fornication policy) rather than to strictly based their decision on the previous code of conduct guideline that had difficulties in covering a range of different individual cases or set of circumstances because each situation was not necessary as straightforward. This leaded to more oversight guidance than to oversight discipline.
 
The influence of the revised fornication policy on church conduct meant that many of the rules in the previous code of the conduct guidelines regarding the conduct with the opposite gender, had more consideration to the serious consequences of fornication i.e. permanent disfellowship, and consolidated of many behavioural issues and attitudes leading up to that point. Consolidation meant that some rules became extraneous although the core intent still remains. This enables the individual church members to make clearer and better moral decisions taking into account of the gravity of their situation as well getting clearer guidance within the church.
The natural result of this revision means that there was more allowances for church members to take even more personal responsibility for their spiritual growth and less personal intervention by the church oversight unless it was absolutely necessary or there was an urgent concern raised. This also means there was a moving away from the oversight being seen as a type of confessional outlet and being more of a "shepherd guide.” Creating reliance on oversight guidance and spiritual advice rather than the previous code of conduct guidelines. All urgent matters and different set of individual circumstances are now addressed case-by-case by the local assembly pastor in consultation with the principal pastor Simon Longfield because the variety of communication technology (e.g. emails, telephone & internet) available, therefore establishing greater oversight consistency in discussions and consultation than before. 
Topsaint (talk) 05:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: section to be edit and placed later

message: After the 1995 schism and then change of leadership from Lloyd Longfield to Simon Longfield in 1998, Revival Centres Internationals had a revision on the Code of Conduct. It was found that most of the rules and regulations that were written in the code was based on many moral dilemmas concerning fornication and other behavioural problems that the people of the church faced. It was concluded that many rules and regulations contained in the code of conduct had not stressed enough the importance of personal ownership for each members’ actions and in practice had problems deemphasizing many other individual/external influence on each set of circumstances that church members faced. Therefore the code of conduct had the impossible ongoing problem of detailing every behavioural rule and consequences as there was always going to be new threats/issues to a person’s health spiritually, physically and mentally.
While the intention of the code of conduct was to address boarder areas of concerns that church members, especially young people, would find the most amount of pressure, misleading information or harm to their spiritual walk, the onus is now focused on the individual church members to " . . . work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). This means that each church member continues to make their own moral decision and behaviour (as before with further consideration to the revised fornication policy) rather than to strictly based their decision on the previous code of conduct guideline that had difficulties in covering a range of different individual cases or set of circumstances because each situation was not necessary as straightforward. This leaded to more oversight guidance than to oversight discipline.
 
The influence of the revised fornication policy on church conduct meant that many of the rules in the previous code of the conduct guidelines regarding the conduct with the opposite gender, had more consideration to the serious consequences of fornication i.e. permanent disfellowship, and consolidated of many behavioural issues and attitudes leading up to that point. Consolidation meant that some rules became extraneous although the core intent still remains. This enables the individual church members to make clearer and better moral decisions taking into account of the gravity of their situation as well getting clearer guidance within the church.
The natural result of this revision means that there was more allowances for church members to take even more personal responsibility for their spiritual growth and less personal intervention by the church oversight unless it was absolutely necessary or there was an urgent concern raised. This also means there was a moving away from the oversight being seen as a type of confessional outlet and being more of a "shepherd guide.” Creating reliance on oversight guidance and spiritual advice rather than the previous code of conduct guidelines. All urgent matters and different set of individual circumstances are now addressed case-by-case by the local assembly pastor in consultation with the principal pastor Simon Longfield because the variety of communication technology (e.g. emails, telephone & internet) available, therefore establishing greater oversight consistency in discussions and consultation than before. 
Topsaint (talk) 05:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: An emphasis on church members personal responsibility for their individual conduct

message: I have just dropped in on this article. It appears much too long for the topic, has too much detail on church practices and too little external commentary or evaluation or sources re the organisation. It doesn't look to me to be WP:NPOV, but then I had trouble actually understanding some sections. I note at one stage in the past a link to a group critical of church practices was edited out and incorrectly referred to as vandalism. I have made an attempt to correct this particular problem. It might be good to organise it more simply and to group discussion of various controversies regarding the church in a section that would follow on from one that outlined church beliefs. I also noticed a reference to modelling it on the Ba'hai article - actually not the best of FA articles in WP if you ask me, but anyway - Ba'hai is an entire, global religious faith, not one regional denomination of one faith, so this article should not need this amount of detail on doctrine, church practices etc, but just focus on those where it differs from related or antecedent denominations of churches. I note an assessment was recently sought. My feedback would be that this is a case where a shorter article will actually be able to rate better. Will drop back in some time. Cheers. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:42, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Length, structure, NPOV...

message: As stated previously by topsaint, the AG of Australia contacted Lloyd Longfield and asked him if RCA (as it was known then) wanted to be a registered denomination. So I don't see a problem with the original statement, but it may want a slight working on the sentance. Floorwalker (talk) 22:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: the reference to the contact with Lloyd Longfield should be omitted unless there is a reference for this. Although the same is arguable true for the registratino itself, this is more likely to be substantiated from state gov records. WP:OR cheers hamiltonstone (talk) 03:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  agreed Seldon-au (talk) 05:50, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Seldon, this has already been done by Hamiltonstone on 26th September a minute after his above comment. The wording is fine as it was.  Hamiltonstone comment as removing the reference to his personal contact with Lloyd Longfield has merit as this information came about by personal means. So I will undo and then slightly change the wording to reflect that the registeration was under Sir Garfield Barwick rein.Topsaint 10:13, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Sir Garfield Barwick was Attorney General of Australia between 1958 and 1964. You can look this up anywhere on the net, as well as his article in Wikipedia. So the original line in the article would be correct in that RCI became a registered denomination during Sir Barwick's time as Attorney General. And by Commonwealth - that would be the Commonwealth of Australia, or more commonly known as Australia. Floorwalker (talk) 22:09, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Church registration by Attorney General