Talk:Aspies For Freedom/Archive 1

message: Someone added this, it was removed anonymously incorrectly citing 'vandalism', I reverted, it was re-reverted citing vandalism and stalking.  I want discussion rather than an unwinnable revert war with sockpuppets.  Seems to me this site by autism auther Eric Chen is relevant counterpoint, the name 'aspies for forgiveness' appears to refer to 'aspies for freedom', and I added a brief description hoping to clarify the oppositional nature.  As Amy says below, "If there was criticism of the aims of the group, or that discussed the cure issue, so be it."  It must be noted that opposing POVs to AFF aren't always pro-cure, but are also pro-integration.  CalG 03:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  link to 'aspies for forgiveness' 

message: This is a puzzle that I'm struggling to understand.  What is Aspies For Freedom?  A forum or an organisation?  Does it have forum users or members?  Leaders or owners?  When its only visible activist Joe Mele was removed from the group, all that happened, as far as I can tell, is his account was banned from the forum.  Notable or not?  My instinct says that the entire Template:Autism_rights_movement template is a fiction, documenting nothing more than a clever manipulation of Google and Wikipedia.  This is not dmoz - a directory of websites - but an encyclopedia of things that exist whether or not websites about them also exist.
I can accept that Aspies For Freedom and the Autism Rights Movement may have willed themselves off the page and into existence, as other themed web communities have.  To whetever extent these sites, groups, activities, notables exist outside their own imagination, criticism of them also exists, in abundance.  Mostly regarding their autocratic governance and how the boundaries are shifted at will due to its amorphous, semi-fictional state as outlined above.  One confusing complaint of many available: User_talk:66.106.91.145 (bottom).
I'm proposing deletion of this page to draw discussion.  I expect it to remain, but hopefully in a form that better reflects reality.  Whatever that proves to be.  CalG 05:51, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: above comment was edited by amy nelson, please check logs for full discussion. CalG 03:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My investigations into the autism rights movement suggest that yourself and your husband personally are indistinguishable from Aspies for Freedom, which is not an organisation in any understood sense.  Criticism appears wherever Aspies for Freedom are mentioned, as I noted in my reply on the Chatautism discussion.  That this page lacks a Criticism section makes it poorly reflective of reality. That this page exists at all seems a little cheeky.  Other than Joe Mele's protest the protests are evidently non-notable.  The meetings, etc... well, lots of online groups meet, but I don't need this information.  It's cruft.  CalG 00:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This page needs deletion or a criticism section 

message: I reworded this so it was less disingenuous.  As far as I can tell, the AFF wiki is not user-editable.  It uses MediaWiki but the comparison to Wikipedia was a stretching it CalG 18:11, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It used to be user editable but has since been moderated. Q0 19:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: AFF 'Wiki'

message: ManekiNeko, are you thinking of Amy Harmon's stories in the New York Times?  One of them is mentioned in Wikipedia's Autism rights movement section.  I don't think any of her stories were on the front page, though.
:I think you were confused by the formatting in the above section -- I just cleared it up a bit. I don't know what the stories are; I was just hoping someone could cite a reference, because otherwise "the first autistic person to protest" etc. sounds iffy. ManekiNeko 00:11, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Bonnie, type ~~~~ at the end of your post and it will do that for you. ManekiNeko 00:13, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keep AFF as a separate page 

message: I just wanted to add that this article looks a lot better than the last time I looked at it a couple weeks ago... great job guys :) Ryan Norton T | @ | C 20:51, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ryan, do you have any suggestions about conforming to style? I've been editing a lot on Wikipedia lately, but I'm still inexperienced enough that I might miss style issues that other editors would immediately notice. :) So any advice is welcome! ManekiNeko | Talk 21:09, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  On its way 

message: I put some comments in there on the remaining problems.  The main two are the fact that it doesn't say why AFF is campaigning against a couple of those organizations, and also that it was the first to have an IRC chat network for autistics (without references this qualifies as original research, so I removed it.  You could say it as "they claim they were the first" etc.). Ryan Norton T | @ | C 21:38, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Amy, I reworked this a couple days ago, let me know what you think. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 20:43, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup done - notes 

message: Is there any good reason why you removed that link??? RN, you are destroying the quality of this article. Now How will people will have a background on why??? I would appreciate it if you discuss first before unilaterally making changes.JoeMele 18:45, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Joe --please don't throw the word "vandalism" around so easily. When you said "repaired vandalism on the link for new scientist article", what you were more likely repairing was a typo, not vandalism. RN is clearly trying to help here. Most of the non-AFF-affiliated editors who have been working on this article (myself included) are trying to improve it.  Vandalism is a completely different thing from typing "New York Times" when "New Scientist" was intended... :) ManekiNeko | Talk 20:36, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

text: OK, cool; I was just a little worried when I saw that term "vandalism". ManekiNeko | Talk 09:15, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link explaining protest 

message: Why not just give the actual name of the person? Giving handles when a real name is available seems unencyclopedic. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 17:37, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: When the protest was covered in the press it used your real name if I remember correctly. As RN said, I think it's unencyclopedic to use a handle in that situation. However, if the press had referred to you only as TheASMan that would be different. ManekiNeko | Talk 20:31, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Of course :) Ryan Norton T | @ | C 22:47, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is TheASMan??? 

message: :Aspies For Freedom has an ongoing aim to have members of the autistic community recognised as a minority status group. This started in November 2004 after discussion and debate with members, after which a statement was released called 'Declaration of the autism community'[5]. This detailed reasons for seeking such official recognition from the United Nations and the work continues towards achieving this.
For making it from a NPOV, shouldn't we note that its controversial.... and if so how should we do it without getting into a long dragged-out discussion on it? Ryan Norton T | @ | C 06:39, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, I think it's NPOV already. It just states that the minority status thing is AFF's goal -- there's no disputing that. :) I think in a larger Autistic Culture or Autistic Rights Movement article the controversies could be addressed, but here it doesn't seem necessary. JMO, of course. ManekiNeko | Talk 07:54, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  this paragraph bothers me 

message: 1) I never called any one a nazi
2) if you support NAAR or CAN then you are supporting the same ideas that led to the holocaust.
3) I do not think my edits call for being looked at twice because i have an opinion. Everybody here has an opinion. Not calling NAAR evil as it is, is just POV as  mine viewpoint.
4) amy and gareth are anit NAAR and believe they will lead to an autistic genocide as well.
5) AFF has sponsored protests against them.
1: Statements 1 and 2 contradict each other. The ideas that led to the Holocaust was Naziism. 
2: You go on about people hiding behind their IP addresses, yet remove most of the discussion about your behaviour after being warned by Ryan not to under an anonymous IP. 
3: It is better to simply not call NAAR good or evil. Both are NPOV violations. 
4: I never said, and neither did Ryan or anybody else here, that I supported NAAR or CAN. I am pro cure (for giving parents the right to choose whats best for their children.), but don't want a cure forced upon adult autistics.
5: At statement 5: So? That doesn't make your behaviour any more acceptable.
I am sorry if I appear to be rude. I'm merely a bit pissed at the continuing Nazi analogies.
Lord Patrick 07:34, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Setting things straight 

message: I thought about this a while. Maybe rather than having a page "autism rights movement" we could have something like "autism cure debate" or something where we could merge in NAAR and CAR or whatever too. As is though its an ok article now. If someone else really thinks it should be merged feel free to put the tag back up, of course. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 14:01, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge tag taken down 

message: I dont who to believe anymore. The anti-AFF'ers tom,aspieeknee,nathan ,homebakeddeb or AFF. I staunchly defended AFF . some of the anti-AFF'ers went over the line with personal info on amy and gareth's family issues, or worse threaten their public safety to calling the authorities to try to have their kids taken away. Outrageous and unexcusable. But, Since I have been for being not sociable enough or kind enough in my words. I was removed without my permission from the autism assembly.  I find that their allies are removing my sites and now seeminglying no longer support me nor the views that we held. Now the radical viewpoint seems to have only been a ploy to get noticed. I feel they do want change. but in a very much a way theat observes political correctness. This approach doesnt address in a meaning way the injustices visted upon autistics in every day life. Autistic Outrage only can convey the import and the hurt and be the necessary vehicle of change.  The anti-AFF'ers complained about stalking and "things" that happened since leaving AFF. i cannot vouch for that. But I do find that my infraction was slight but I am treated liked the worst of the worst. My repeated attempts to have a proverbial "sitdown" have been rebuffed. Does any of this have a place in the wiki entry as tom and others have tried?JoeMele 18:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The AFF experience