Talk:Lazar Koliševski

message: Also, his successors?  96.50.10.234 (talk) 07:07, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Why the hell did he lose power

message: Wikified and fixed numerous spelling and grammar mistakes made in the English language. Rlevse 17:11, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the external links. Mr. Neutron 02:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no evidence that he ever was or claimed to be Bulgarian. If he was Bulgarian why would he have fought for Macedonia, why not for Bulgaria? He was appointed by Tito to be president of the Republic of Macedonia. At that time there was a lot of fear of Bulgarians, do you really think he would have appointed a Bulgarian to be a diplomat in Yugoslavia.  The external links are pictures or do not work.Alexander the great1 15:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Whether you like it or not he was born Bulgarian. It is a well recorded fact. What happened to him later and was his choice in life does not wipe away his descent and the national consciousness of his family. --Laveol T 22:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is no such thing as "national consciousness of his family". His family was claimed as Bulgarians while Macedonia was under Bulgarian occupation, and as Serbs during the Serbian occupation, also while Macedonia was part of Yugoslavia between the World Wars. Nobody was born as Bulgarian in Sveti Nikole in 1914, but whoever was governing the town during the Balkan Wars and World War 1 was enforcing such "official" documents, that later are being cited as a prove. Given the times of no freedom and negating of Macedonian Nation by Serbian and Bulgarian source, this documents are no real proof. --Ejanev  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.253.197.167 (talk) 19:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikified

message: Can someone please add citations to the information. Otherwise there will be no settlement about his ethnicity. By the way, a Google search for the following phrases: Lazar Koliševski, Lazar Kolišev, Lazar Kolishevski, Lazar Kolishev, Лазар Колишевски and Лазар Колишев all returned results stating an ethnic Macedonian ethnicity. Even Bulgarian Wikipedia says he was born in the "Republic of Macedonia" if you care to look it up. Frightner 10:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I don't see an argument about his ethnicity - the article says he was "was a Communist political leader in Socialist Republic of Macedonia". His parents were Bulgarians though - his father fought in the Bulgarian army in World War I, and eventually was killed in the battles. Later Kolishevski himself declared Bulgarian consciousness in front of Boris III to evade death sentence on the base that his parents were Bulgarians. I guess all this makes him an ethnic Macedonian (or Serbian as he spoke mostly that language), but it doesn't override his origin. Feel free to add up that he was ethnic Macedonian, but do not erase facts about his family and early life. Oh, and Bulgarian Wikipedia says he was born in present-day Republic of Macedonia, which is a clear fact and I don't see any problem with it. --Laveol T 10:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I think you misunderstod my previous post - I said that the fact he signed this does not mean he thought he was Bulgarian. Where exactly did you see me calling Kolishevski a Bulgarian? Do you even question that he changedhis name from Kolishev to Kolishevski? I'll provide you sources, but I really doubt anything can make you change your mind. Oh, I'm not sure if I understand you, but do you wish me to get killed or something? "i only wish that one day you have a knife under you through" sounds kind of like it. --Laveol T 10:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the history of this page, the user that replied to your first post was Falanga888. Frightner 10:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh, the last post was not for you - I know who wrote it - it's the same guy who's being reverting the page for some time now. I'll provide sources for his father and so on, but maybe tomorrow as I'm out of reverts for today. I think we can work well together with mutual compromises, but this guy - he just won't listen to me. --Laveol T 10:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Since Falanga888 ignored a polite request to stop the revert war going on in the article, next time he vandalizes the article the admins will be notified.--The Fifth Horseman 14:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

text: If you read the writings just above (which you obviously didn't care to do) you'll see that this version of the page is a result of a consensus between me and another Macedonian editor. Therefore I'll revert you till you provide a source that overrides the one already given on the case. See, noone here cares what you think, this is history and there are sources for it. Don't like facts - fine, but don't edit the article then. --Laveol T 17:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources?

message: *Драган Кљакиќ „Времето на Колишевски“, Скопје, 1994.
*Крсте Црвенковски, Славко Милосавлевски „Нашиот поглед за времето на Колишевски“, Скопје, 1996.
This books are published in Skopje. Lazar Kolisevski was living in Skopje, Republic in Macedonia. If he was living in Sofia, maybe you could state a Bulgarian book as a source.
That is just not the case.
The Propaganda you are publishing here is highly offensive, and should be removed from Wikipedia.
--Ejanev  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ejanev (talk • contribs) 17:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Литература

message: When someone claims for a Macedonian person to be a Bulgarian, is an offense to the Macedonians, similar or worse when someone calls Bulgarian a Tatar. Kolisevski has always stated he has a Macedonian ancestry.
He had done a lot to stop the Bulgarian Nationalistic Propaganda, that claims a lot of aspects about Macedonian Nation to be Bulgarian.
These views do not exists in reality. These views are coming from the 19th century Romantic movement of the new Balkan nations, like Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece. After they got independent from the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century, and Macedonia being under the Ottoman rule until early 20th century, all of these neighboring nations had assimilation policies towards the people living in Macedonia. The fruit of this policies were the first and second Balkan Wars when the territory of Macedonia was taken over from the Ottoman Empire and divided between these neighboring countries. And according to the new rulers of these territories, they were inhabited by Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks.
Bulgaria got the smallest part, which was the reason for starting the Second Balkan War.
These policies truly belong to the past and should rest in peace there.
Macedonian people after the liberation and proclaiming of federal Macedonia as part of Yugoslavia, had for the first time in the recent history to proclaim there Nationality, Language and Culture as they feel it: Macedonian.--Ejanev (talk) 02:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You have not made one constructive remark, but simply contined with the rants. I'm not claiming he was Bulgarian, but simply adding his Bulgarian name since his birth name was obviously not the name he later became famous with. This is sourced with not one, but two sources, one of which coming from former Yugoslavia. Your only motive is that you don't like the fact and this is not the way Wikipedia works. For the last time I ask you to stop with the nonsense. --Laveol T 09:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Claims that family of Lazar Kolisevski had Bulgarian ethnicity

message: Even last name Kolisev is a Macedonian one. Last names ending with "ev", "ov" are not Bulgarian. It happens that you have those in Bulgaria. But you have those last names in Macedonia, Russia, Check Republic, and so on.
Kolisev is a Macedonian last name. Same is Kolisevski. You can find both kinds with "ov|ova", "ev|eva", "vski/vska", "ski/ska" and others in Republic of Macedonia. So changing a last name from Kolisev to Kolisevski does not have any Bulgarian/AntiBulgarian implications. My last name is "Janev". You can find in Macedonia also "Janevski", "Janeski". All of those are Macedonian last names. The fact that you can have "Janev" in Bulgaria does not translate to ethnicity/origin claims in Macedonia.
Here are some last names that finish on "ov", "ev" and are not Bulgarian neither Macedonian:
[Sergei Lavrov]
[Anton Chekhov]
[Martina Navratilova]
So these last name endings are typical but not exclusive for some of the Slavic languages.
Same is with "vski/vska", "ski/ska", "ich" which are shared between a number of Slavic languages.
To come back to Kolisevski: Kolisevski is a Macedonian last name, as well is Kolisev. If you can find a person living in Bulgaria with one of those last names, and probably you could not, does not gives any conclusion about ethnicity or being a Pro-Bulgarian. --Ejanev (talk) 17:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a link illustrating different cases of common endings in the Macedonian last names [Macedonians]--Ejanev (talk) 18:05, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Macedonian last names and some common endings of the last names in the Slavic Languages

message: The sourcing for this article, especially those parts motivated by the notorious Macedonian-Bulgarian on-wiki polemics, are godawful, as usual. First, about the name: Usage of the name form in "-ev" seems to be absolutely marginal in English. There's one English-language publication cited for it, and that's really the only one that comes up in Google books. I couldn't see the actual context of the quote within that book; but what I could see is that even that book uses "-evski" more often, and lists only "-evski" in its index. Second, I don't see any reason why we would provide an extra "Bulgarian: ..." listing of the name form in the lead. The guy was never a Bulgarian citizen, except during the short period of fascist occupation, against which he was actively fighting. The claim that his parents were consciously pro-Bulgarian is sourced to an obscure book published in communist Bulgaria by an obscure communist Bulgarian diplomat; I have no idea what that book is about, but I would doubt we should treat it as a reliable source about anything relating to intra-communist petty nationalist disputes. In fact, the whole issue about both his name and his national identity seems to play a role exclusively in that context, of petty nationalist polemics, and nowhere else. I have no doubt that this person, like many others, may have had a name whose usage fluctuated between "-ev" and "-evski" forms, but even mentioning that topic seems to be giving undue weight to a nationalist fringe issue.
Finally, I strongly object against linking to just about anything on nationalist propaganda sites like "promacedonia.org". 
In short, with most of these issues I'm effectually on the side of User:Ejanev. That doesn't change the fact that Ejanev has been edit-warring disruptively. But so has his opponent, User:Laveol; both are really on the same level here. Can we please all try being reasonable now? Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I agree on the sourcing part. But still the document was signed by the guy no matter who scanned it and where it was uploaded. Btw it speaks both of his alleged Bulgariannes as of the policy of the Bulgarian authorities at the time. As for the Yugoslav book - I thought it was a pretty good source cause it was actually a Yugoslav politician that referred to him as Kolishev effectively trying to disparage him by mentioning his BG roots. But never mind - generally you seem right for most of the stuff. I'm interested though if the user's getting blocked as a sockpuppeteer. Cause this is a pretty obvious case. --Laveol T 22:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Haven't found time to look into that closely enough yet. Perhaps you'd be better off asking for a CU? Given the nastiness of the personal attacks from the IPs, there'd certainly be sanctions if socking is substantiated. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor sourcing 

message: There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages. 
The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion. 
Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:56, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion|Request for Comments]] 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: #We have a source that supports Koliševski's mother being of Aromanian origin.
#Koliševski was arrested and sentenced to death in 1941 by the Bulgarians. At this time, he filled out some paperwork claiming that his parents were Bulgarian and pleaded for his life claiming Bulgarian descent. 
We know the latter are both incorrect and unreliable. Incorrect because we have a source stating his mother was not Bulgarian but Aromanian. Unreliable because he was sentenced to death and presumably sought to be spared his life by claiming Bulgarian descent. 
His father, per Bulgarian sources, was actually a "Serboman". It is inappropriate to use factually incorrect claims from a death row inmate as backing for his parents' ethnic origins. --Local hero talk 04:36, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the source. I covered it in the article. Jingiby (talk) 05:47, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Logic-defying assertion