Talk:United States Air Force Thunderbirds

message: Please see the discussion at talk:Thunderbird_(disambiguation). - UtherSRG 20:16, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  You figure Out My Cryptic Note 

message: OK, the '16s are lovely, but, it's a T-birds page, so how 'bout some of their historic aircraft, like, say, F-84, F-100, T-38? Trekphiler 20:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Looking For Someone Else To Do My Work 

message: I think that the link for "Pete Peterson" who was part of the "Diamond crash" points to the wrong person. —the preceding unsigned comment is by Bob Collins (talk • contribs) 13:20, December 9, 2005
:I fixed it --rogerd 18:53, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to Pete Peterson 

message: Is it just me that thinks there are too many images in the article? Some of them should be removed or placed inside <gallery> tags. kallemax 19:28, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh, yeah, that is a lot. My rule of thumb is that the ideal is to have an average of one illustration visible at any one time - no all-text screenfuls, particularly not for such a visual subject. The images should be a little smaller, and the less-good ones gathered into a gallery at the end (even better would be commons, but that's a bunch of re-uploading). Stan 22:14, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So be bold and make the changes you deem appropriate! I've organized the images on the page, so take a look and make sure I did an ok job. ~MDD4696 23:00, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: Shouldn't there be any reference to the 2004 incident at Mountain Home Air Force Base? Also, the two images in the history section do seem to have the correct text. --rxnd ( t | € | c ) 16:29, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mountain Home Air Force Base 

message: The list of fatalities is not complete.  Captain Nick Hauwk (I'm not sure of the spelling) was killed when his plane stalled during a low speed pass in the 1981 season at a air show.  My brother was one of the pilots killed during the 82 crash.
I would edit the main page but I don't remember the details.Dick Mays
:Both info added! Captain Almighty Nutz (Contact me EMail Me Contribs) 01:59, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  List Of Fatalities Not Complete 

message: Link to Major Robert Fitzgerald in fatalities section pointed to evidently wrong person. I removed the link, while as far as I can see, we have no article on the correct man. I hope it was the right thing to do. 83.29.244.78 13:04, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Robert Fitzgerald link 

message: The Accidents section contains the following sentence.
On 1958-10-09 14 men aboard the Thunderbirds support C-123 perished in a crash 50 miles NW of Boise, Idaho while transiting an airshow.
The phrase "while transiting an airshow" implies that they were passing through the airspace of an airshow at the time of the accident.  I suspect that is not correct.  Can someone confirm whether this accident occurred while enroute to an airshow, enroute from an airshow, or enroute between airshows? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tedd (talk • contribs) 22:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed it. Joe Hepperle (talk) 18:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nonsense phrase under "Accidents"? 

message: I think the description of the September 8, 1981 crash may be incorrect.  I seem to recall that he did eject, but was too low and was killed falling to the breakwall at Burke airport in Cleveland.  I have no reference, and 26 year-old memories may be faulty. 68.99.53.199 03:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  September 1981 Crash Info Incorrect Maybe 

message: This user seems to be adding blatant advertisment. The user is registered from the base used by the Thunderbirds - so I reckon someone there is promoting them through this article. Can someone else look at this? --Richardwhiuk (talk) 23:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't see what it was that you were referring to in the article but the Thunderbirds aren't really a business so how could they be advertising?   —ASPENSTI—TALK—CONTRIBUTIONS 21:18, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Aspensti, they are effectively part of the recruiting arm of the Air Force, so they do make advertising to "sell" their "product": recruiting people. That said, I'm not seeing where there's a problem either, but this comment was made 3.5 years ago; it's likely already been fixed. Buffs (talk) 02:45, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  132.58.234.102 

message: wow talk about a need of references. No citations in history or in incidents, only 2 in-line citations. Please consider adding the citations needed banner to head of article.--Sparkygravity (talk) 16:09, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations Needed 

message: Just like hearing vulgarities in church, I was shocked and horrified to read the following in this Wikipedia article:
"To the shock and horror of the onlookers, Stricklands aircraft failed to complete the maneuver and instead smashed into the ground less than 500 yards from spectators. "It was really quiet," remembers M D, who saw the crash first hand. "Nobody said a word until we saw the pilot stand up. Everyone shouted 'he got out! he got out!' he got out at the last second." 
This is just one of several sections that read like a sensationalized newspaper article. The section should only say, "Strickland's aircraft failed to complete the maneuver and instead smashed into the ground less than 500 yards from spectators." 
And who is M D? A Wikipedia editor looking for his 15 minutes of fame by listing himself as a "shocked onlooker" with a comment to make? Even if not, "M D's" comments have no place here. They add absolutely nothing to the article. 
After all, Joe Hepperle, who saw the crash, said, "The fireball was big! It was real big!" and you don't have that "quote" in here. 
N.B Joe Hepperle did not see the crash and was nowhere near at the time. The above claim about Joe Hepperle and his comments on the crash are meant as a demonstration analogy to (analogously demonstrate ?) why "...shock and horror of the onlookers..." and "M D" and his alleged comments have no place in this Wikipedia article.
Since most of this article is not referenced, there is no way to view the original citations to determine a correct way to rewrite this section.
Joe Hepperle (talk) 16:16, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: A lot less time and effort, and a lot more civility, could have been accomplished just by editing the article.--Reedmalloy (talk) 05:17, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Encyclopedia or titillating newspaper? 

message: Is the show schedule needed? I think that there should maybe be a link to the show schedule. Any thoughts? 66.239.250.209 (talk) 20:22, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Show schedule needed? 

message: ===Accidents section===
The section on accidents emphasizes that there have only been two fatalities at air shows. But the list below it shows three. Then the list below that shows the death of one pilot, which was already mentioned in both the airshows list, and the text above that. -Freekee (talk) 20:23, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: 0pen$0urce,  "....the tone appears to attempt to mitigate instead of just document".  You need to describe what information this section downgrades or ignores.  Please add specific details to allow improvements, or remove the tag. Tnx: HarryZilber (talk) 18:35, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Accidents Section NPOV

message: The section on accidents emphasizes that there have only been two fatalities at air shows. But the list below it shows three. Then the list below that shows the death of one pilot, which was already mentioned in both the airshows list, and the text above that. -Freekee (talk) 20:23, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Accidents section

message: The article doesn't mention the March 18, 1973 F-4 Phantom crash at Holloman AFB, NM.  Capt. Mike "Rip" Blaisdell safely ejected.
I saw it happen, but don't know how to reference it to Wikipedia standards.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.191.150.241 (talk) 06:05, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing Crash 

message: This section especially compared to similar section on Blue Angels article appear to need NPOV check as the tone appears to attempt to mitigate instead of just document.0pen$0urce (talk) 21:42, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: 0pen$0urce,  "....the tone appears to attempt to mitigate instead of just document".  You need to describe what information this section downgrades or ignores.  Please add specific details to allow improvements, or remove the tag. Tnx: HarryZilber (talk) 18:35, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV Tagg

message: An image used in this article, , has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 27 September 2011 
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thread_title: File:USAF Thunderbird Diamond Formation.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: Here is a link to the bio for Lieutenant Colonel Christopher R. Stricklin, who as a Captain piloted the F-16 which crashed on September 14, 2003.  On 18 June 2010 he became the commander of the 49th Fighter Training Squadron.  There is currently probably too little information about the crash in this article to merit an indication that it did not bring his career to an end, though it makes for a nice coda. -- 110.49.251.173 (talk) 14:48, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christopher R. Stricklin -- Pilot for 2003 Split-S Crash -- CO of 49 FTS 

message: Editor  refers to the Thunderbirds as "the Fastest Flying Jet Team in the world." We need a reliable citation to verify this, because the context and meaning are unclear. Other aerobatic teams operate the MiG-29 (comparable), Su-27 (faster) or F/A-18 (comparable at low altitudes where aerobatic typically happen), or have previously operated comparable or faster aircraft. Is this a marketing slogan, or an actual claim meant to be factual? Since you put it in boldface title case, do you mean to imply that this is an alternate name for the team? Either way, I'm removing it for now. Please provide a citation if you put it back into the article, and/or discuss it further on this talk page. TheFeds 22:33, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meaning and context of "Fastest" 

message: Numerous pictures are duplicated in the gallery and the insets. This is not valuable, especially given the link to a Commons category where some of these, and many similar images can also be found. Moreover, there are too many pictures of various closely related activities, many with somewhat saccharine captions. We should prune those a little bit. Any other opinions on this matter, before I set about making relevant modifications? TheFeds 06:36, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Hearing none opposed, I'll go ahead and make the change. TheFeds 05:51, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Insets or gallery—not both, and too many similar pictures in general 

message: The paragraph describing the first female Thunderbirds demonstration pilots has been removed several times.  On each of the occasions, the reason given has been lack of notability.  Given how much the appointments were covered in the press, the topic seems to meet every requirement for notability.  I've reinstated the text.
The contribution histories of the IPs used for the edits, 68.227.222.230 and 38.100.50.158, show the removal of several other 'first female to ...' mentions in other articles.  See also: 98.169.124.201,  98.169.115.189,  68.100.242.247.
--QWw (talk) 05:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notablility - first female pilot 

message: Article from "Aviation Week & Space Technology : Contrails", unknown date (resumed recent), posted on this forum site: http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=169272
USAF General Merrill A. (Tony) McPeak On ' Jerking The Wings Off ' An F-100.
Hopefully someone can find article info and make addition to Wiki.
Flightsoffancy (talk) 19:32, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing Oct. 20, 1967 crash. 

message: There's a typo in Demonstration Routine, 5th para., 1st sent.:
"...by doing maneuver such as fast passes,..." (maneuver vs. maneuvers)
50.53.161.197 (talk) 15:29, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: EricSerge (talk) 18:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request on 3 April 2013 

message: I'm not sure the new material on the history of the squadron as a bomber unit is terribly relevant to the actual history of the Thunderbirds. The USAF administratively reassigning the lineage of a bomber squadron so as to backdate the squadron's founding seems to be an exercise in pencil-whipping, because that history had nothing to do with the exploits of the people or aircraft of the already-extant 4520th. Wouldn't a split better focus this article on the real Thunderbirds, and we can use the new material to do the bombers (and WWI fighters) justice in their own article? (Use hatnotes etc. freely to link the two where appropriate.) TheFeds 06:35, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done Bwmoll3 (talk) 23:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks great—especially now that the 30th's article has a picture of a bomber at the top! TheFeds 04:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Focus of article and possible split: historical vs. contemporary 

message: There's a typo in "History". The section before the "F-16 Era" section should be "T-38 Talon era". It is currently incorrectly labeled as T-33.
:: Completed :) Bwmoll3 (talk) 16:27, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request on 29 July 2013 

message: There's some duplicate text at the beginning of the F-16 era section - can't fix it myself as editing appears to be disabled.
99.88.5.242 (talk) 04:59, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Corrected, thank you for pointing it out :) Bwmoll3 (talk) 10:26, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Duplicate text

message: Duplicate text continues in section "F-16 Fighting Falcon era".  Paragraphs beginning in "Their 3,000th air show" and "The United States Postal Service" are duplicated. 38.67.3.219 (talk) 20:50, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duplicate text 

message: I call attention to the following sentence in the first paragraph:  "Created in 1953, the USAF Thunderbirds are the thirst oldest formal flying aerobatic team (under the same name) in the world, after the US Navy Blue Angels formed in 1946 and the prestigious French Air Force Patrouille de France formed in 1931."  I do believe the USAF Thunderbirds are the third oldest formal flying aerobatic team rather than the thirst oldest.Toddabearsf (talk) 09:02, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correction required, but editing is locked 

message: On 1 March 2013, the USAF announced that due to budget cuts, aerial demonstration team performances would cease indefinitely, effective 1 April 2013.[1] On 6 December 2013 the Thunderbirds announced their 2014 schedule and the resumption of their appearances.
<-------------I talk too much, sorry, but I can not stop when I start, for the question in short form go down to the last sentences<----
Very good, that the USA decided to resume their appearances! It would be really the wrong signal and sad since I think I saw a video of many such teams at the "ILA" (Internationale Luftfahrt Ausstellung), International Airflight Exhibition/Show) close to Berlin in the Schönefeld-Airport which is being modernized. Today I live in the centre of West-Berlin (close to Bahnhof Zoo ;) If someone knows Christiane F's book), but at my mothers flat in "Buckow" you always heard the sound since they were flying very low and compared to Airbus or Boeing-Jets they are much louder, I think this comes often from activated afterburner? 
Would be a very very bad signal to say "We can not pay this anymore" for the US. The Chinese are coming closer to the US-Budget anyway every year... the times in which the US military budget made 25% of the world wide military budget are over, but this unit is psychological important! It is like the British, after World War 2 they fell in a recession in the 50's and together with France (exhausted by World War 2 and by the war in Indochina or later Vietnam, which ended in the catastrophy of Dien Bien Phu, even though the USA paid 75% of the bills since they saw communists as a thread, which happened at least with the North Korean attack on South Korea in the Summer 1950. But France and British could no longer really hold their colonies under controll without exploiting them as much as possible.. 
I hope the US will be longer a world power (until 1945 the British were seen as a world power, or lets say 1939, they had Iranian oil, every third or fourth human on earth was living in one of their colonies.... but this ended and the USA took over the German, French and British role in this section.
I never thought I would ever say, that I wish Bush Junior should be president again, since he got the balls to fight the enemy, what is happening now is just a "defending line" at the parallel of Bagdad. Offensive operations in the North are done not enough, okay air strikes increased, but the most brave soldiers fighting are the Kurds, the Peshmerga saved the Northern parts and many locations at the Syrian-Turkish border... but Turkey is not allowing the Iraqi Kurds to transport weapons as much as they want, through the Turkey and than send them into the Northern Syrian Area... since the ground way is not possible to use for flights, 
However... I hope the USA stay the Number 1 for a long time! But does anyone know how much these "Thunderbird"-Squadron does cost yearly? I mean they take old Air Force jets which are put out of service, even not part of the reserve. Like the F-4 Phantom II, F-100 Super Sabre or the F-105 "Thunderchief" aircraft (the Name is good at least :D ).
So costs should not be so high: spare parts (which can be taken from old machines too, since many thousand aircraft are somewhere in underground or so I believe, maybe the largest parts were dismantled to park it easier, most of these fighters were sold too, but the cold-war production was extreme high as we know..... So anybody does know the costs? I think payment, food, housing etc for the soldiers of that unit is one larger point, 
but the worst point are the kerosene costs... they make their shows in extreme much countries, means they often have to fly thousands of kilometers to their destination and at the airshows they need fuel too. In some Areas it is not possible to land and refuel, aircraft carrier is rarely in range, so maybe very expensive air refueling is needed sometimes? But it they take as much as possible drop tanks as possible. I think 2 are possible, but with modification the gun hardpoints can be changed, so that more than 2 drop-off-tanks can be carried? 
Greetings Kilon22 (talk) 14:44, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  costs? 

message: F-4 Phantom II era
EDIT REQUEST
EXISTING TEXT
By 1967, the Thunderbirds had flown 1,000 shows. In 1969, the squadron re-equipped with the front-line F-4E Phantom which it flew until 1973, the only time the Thunderbirds would fly jets similar to those of the Blue Angels as it was the standard fighter for both services in the 1960s and 1970s. A special white paint had to be developed to cover high-temperature metals, replacing the bare metal paint scheme of past planes. The white paint scheme has been continued to the present.
PROPOSED TEXT
By 1967, the Thunderbirds had flown 1,000 shows. In 1969, the squadron re-equipped with the front-line F-4E Phantom which it flew until 1973, the only time the Thunderbirds would fly jets similar to those of the Blue Angels as it was the standard fighter for both services in the 1960s and 1970s. 
EXPLANATION
This is an old mistake that will not die.  It makes no sense to paint bare metal to protect it from heat especially considering that the scallops, stripes and stylized thunderbird on the ventral area showed no effect from heat.  The F-4 used titanium on the fuselage and empennage which gave a bare-metal Phantom a mottled appearance because of the color difference between titanium and aluminum.  You can see this effect in good photos of the F-100.  The F-4 was painted white only for cosmetic reasons.  The entire livery was, as it is today, painted with standard aviation polyurethane with special colors that are mil spec Thunderbird Red, Thunderbird White and Thunderbird Blue, formulated for maximum vibrancy.  
MY BONAFIDES
I was the Team's PAO from 1974 to 1976 which made me part of the transition from the F-4 to the T-38.  I am the author of "We Rode the Thunder: The Autobiography of the United States Air Force Thunderbirds", published on the Team's 50th anniversary.    
Hope I did this right.
RobertLGore (talk) 11:59, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Sentence removed. LittleWink (talk) 09:50, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  F-4 Livery Correction 

message: One of the pilots involved in the air show at the Air Force Academy graduation show had to ditch his plane after an apparent engine failure.  I'm sure there will be more details available shortly.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.229.239.2 (talk) 21:09, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Air Force Academy crash

message: TL;DR it's soot from the lead planes' exhausts. 
The article currently mentions but doesn't go into detail about the black tail on slot 4. I found this and thought it interesting. 
 http://forum.virtualthunderbirds.com/viewtopic.php?t=3202 74.65.224.183 (talk) 18:55, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  the black tail tradition 

message: I heard that the Blue Angels go to the same cities year after year, such as Seattle, San Francisco, Fort Lauderdale.
How about the Thunderbirds? Should we insert in the article that they go to Phoenix, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, and Atlanta every year? New2018Year (talk) 21:42, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where does these planes fly in shows? 

message: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5cCOiTEYSw BillVol (talk) 23:34, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thunderbirds visit South America film 

message: 20 August 2005: The Thunderbirds temporarily grounded themselves pending an investigation into a minor mid-air incident during the Chicago Air & Water Show. During the maneuver known as the "Diamond Pass in Review" the missile rail on the right wing of the slot (#4) aircraft, flown by Major Steve Horton, contacted the left stabilator of the right (#3) aircraft, flown by Major D. Chris Callahan. A four-foot section of the missile rail snapped off the #4 aircraft, while the #3 aircraft sustained a "medium deep scratch" to the red paint of the stabilator. As a result, the Thunderbirds have taken extra precaution when flying their diamond, changing from about 18" wingtip to canopy separation to 36". Amateur video showed the missile rail falling into the "safety box" on Lake Michigan away from boaters. While there were no injuries and the aircraft remained flight worthy, the demonstration was immediately terminated, all aircraft returned to Gary International Airport, and the Thunderbirds did not perform on the second day of the Chicago show.
2605:E000:9119:2100:9DAC:F8D6:8794:D5A8 (talk) 21:28, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion to reword 20 August 2005 Incident 

message: The team's URL listed in the infobox is incorrect and leads to some site selling coins. The team's site is https://www.airforce.com/thunderbirds/overview. I'd ask that someone please correct this. Thanks!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.13.151.51 (talk) 21:18, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  URL Incorrect 

message: The section that talks about 21 pilots killed in the team's history could be clearer.
(Compare to the Blue Angels page for the latter two comments below.)  
First, the wording might be political, but I would find it better to say that the pilots "died" in the various incidents described rather than that they were killed.  To me, "killed" implies active intention even when used in the passive voice.  I fervently hope that none of the deaths were intentional.
Second, it isn't clear, going through the list of crashes, which pilots died in some of the events, particularly in the mention of the transport going down near Boise _en_route_ to McChord whether any of the service people lost were pilots or were piloting the craft at the time.
Third, it isn't explicitly clear whether any of the pilots were killed in later military action or whether the count (21) is of pilots who died during their Thunderbirds assignment.  (Given the number of years that the Thunderbirds have been a team, I would expect that some retired pilots have since died due to causes entirely unrelated to their professions.  That would be private, of course, and needn't be addressed in the article.)
I am the daughter and sister of Air Force officers, who lived in Las Vegas in the 60s through 80s due to its proximity to Nellis AFB.  I have fond memories of living on base and going to airshows.  I appreciate the care and information provided in this article.
Thank you,
Lisa A. LePome Lepome (talk) 17:05, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification would be helpful