Talk:Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord

message: Could we please find any excuse at all to report that Napoleon referred to Talleyrand as "shit in a silk stocking?" Please? :) - montréalais
:Hmm.. well.. Talleyrand's illegitimate son by Adélaïde-Emilie Filleul (herself apparently the illegitimate daughter of King Louis XV), Auguste Charles Joseph, Comte de Flahaut de la Billarderie, fought under Napoleon, and was the lover of Caroline Murat (Napoleon's sister) and of Hortense de Beauharnais (Napoleon's step-daughter), whose illegitimate son by him became Duke of Morny.   But I guess that would make him a bastard in silk-stockings - close but no cigar :(.  Under what circumstances was Napoleon's comment made? -- Someone else 07:31 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)
::semi-answering myself here: on 28 janvier 1809, «Ah, tenez, vous êtes de la merde dans un bas de soie», apparently on the basis of his implacably officious, bureaucratic nature.... -- Someone else 07:45 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)
<P><P>:Talleyrand was very cultured, charming, well-groomed, etc, and Napoleon admired him for all this.  He was also guilty of mass bribes, treachery, general "evil-doing" that led people to say he had the face of an angel and the soul of the devil.  Hence the 'shit in silk stocking' line. - Tavi October 28 2004
----
Most of the internet biographies maintain he is buried at Valençay.  Was he moved to the Cimetière de Passy, or are we just wrong about that? -- Someone else 07:19 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)
:EB also says he was buried at Valençay. However, several listings of the graves at Passy mention that his grave is there, so I'm pretty sure he was moved. AxelBoldt 18:18, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I take that back: I don't believe the sites that mention Passy anymore.AxelBoldt 18:48, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I already answered in the french Bistro, but it's better to repeat it here : I suppose he would be listed on http://www.paris.fr/fr/vos_demarches/obseques/cimetiere_passy.ASP if his grave were in Cimetière de Passy. Since he's not, I guess you have your answer..._R_ 13:54, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Napoleon quote

message: The medical literature refers to him having a "club foot" rather than a "foot injury". Do we know which of these two is (or are both) true? - Nunh-huh 09:36, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  foot 

message: I have heard before the allegations of bribes that were recently added to the article as unvarnished fact. I have no idea of whether they are true. Does anyone have a citation for this? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:37, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bribes 

message: Lord Talleyrand should not be confused with Lord Halleyrand who became the first 21st Regal lord of "The Regency" in St. Davids, PA in June of 2004.
Indeed. Nor is he likely to be, so I have removed this from the article. (Talleyrand should not be confused with Sally Rand, either.) -- Jmabel | Talk 08:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Odd recent addition removed 

message: Shouldn't there be a reference to the dedication/address to Talleyrand-Périgord by Mary Wollstonecraft in her Vindication of the Rights of Woman, as a response to the Declaration of the Rights of Men? - 
Dotte uk 11:29, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So is there any reason you don't want to write it yourself? - Jmabel | Talk 04:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mary Wollstonecraft

message: Talleyrand did not say this and I have removed it.  I have thought about mentioning in the article that the statement is commonly and erroneously attributed to him, but this seems a little silly.  As Joseph Fouche (N's minister of police) in fact said this, it should go in the WP article on him.  However, if anyone wants to mention the quote in this article, I would have no objections to adding it back, with proper attribution to Fouche.  Also, if readded, the quote should be in the form in the cited source, as this is the way it is usually rendered in English.  JChap  (Talk) 03:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you provide a cite for that?  I don't know where I first got the "idea" that Fouche said this, but I verified it in the linked quote above. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 17:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: That was worse than a crime, it was a blunder.

message: Prime Minister is a fairly important position.  Even though he did not hold the office long, I think it would be appropriate to comment on exactly when he acheived this office, any notable accomplishments (or a comment specifying that there were none) and the circumstances of his departure from the office.  Any takers? Mdotley 17:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prime Minister 

message: Is there any source for the aside about Aaron Burr? And why does it merit mention in the encyclopedia? - Jmabel | Talk 02:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Burr 

message: "Talleyrand was said to be vain: he kept on using his title, Prince of Benevento, after Napoleon was defeated, despite his principality being reincorporated into Italy. This irritated King Louis XVIII and his court."
Have removed this because it appears to be patently untrue. J.F. Bernard writes in a biography that after the Peace of Paris in 1814, Talleyrand stopped using the title of Prince of Benevento, as it would have represented him as a "son of the Revolution". He goes on to say that at the Congress of Vienna, Talleyrand called himself "Prince de Talleyrand", which would have been "considerably more respectable, in the eyes of legitimist [royal] Europe," than his previous title. This is from J.F Bernard's biography titled Talleyrand, published 1973, fn p. 368.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.173.12.40 (talk • contribs) 12 November 2006.
:...dropped the "Benevento" but retained the "Prince". This seems like a telling detail worth the briefest notice in the article. --Wetman 05:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: True. 203.173.12.40 10:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prince of Benevento 

message: : no citation, and the only previous edits by the account  are clearly either vandalism, newbie test, or browser malfunction. I'll leave a note on the user talk page asking for citation, but if none is forthcoming, we should probably revert, since even if these were correct nothing in the previous version would actually have been wrong. - Jmabel | Talk 01:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They might be genuine. From what I've read, Talleyrand was friends with Hamilton, though I don't know any more than that.Foraminifera 16:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Does this mean you intend to track down a citation? - Jmabel | Talk 05:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  2 changes that raise concern 

message: Should mention be made of Talleyrand alleged affair with the Duchess of Dino, his niece?Can provide sources that make mention of it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.231.236.170 (talk) 02:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At least on the borderline of worth a mention. Sources added here to the talk page make it an option to add it to the article (whereas without sources, clearly not). - Jmabel | Talk 06:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duchess of Dino 

message: Possibly y'all might want to include another quote:
:"Above all, gentlemen, not the slightest zeal."
--Gwern  (contribs) 15:53 29 January 2007 (GMT)
:Sure. Set it in context, and show how it reveals Talleyrand' style of diplomacy. A list of isolated alleged quotes would not reveal encyclopedic thinking. --Wetman 04:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another possible quote 

message: A very recent edit makes reference to a "Calvino," but does not explain who Calvino is.  Italo Calvino?  The sentence is also not encyclopedic in either form or function.  It should be deleted or rewritten. Zeno Izen 20:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Calvino who? 

message: Talleyrand was instrumental in the negoations and treaty for the lousiana purchase, arguably the largest land purchase ever. ( 1M sq miles vs Alaska 1/2M Sq Mi. )
"In his preliminary propositions Livingston lightly suggested to Talleyrand a cession of Louisiana to satisfy these claims; following it with the more serious demand that France should pledge observance of the Spanish concession to the Mississippi trade. This pledge Napoleon readily gave." - http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Louisiana_Purchase
--Artoftransformation 06:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lousiana Purchase? 

message: The infobox says he was the first Prime Minister of France, but this it not dicussed anywhere in the article?  That doesn't make any sense! Kevlar67 22:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prime Minister? 

message: My biography of Talleyrand,Duff Gordon, 1932, which is shown in the article as a reference, states that his lameness was the result of an accident, and was not congenital. However, instead of substituting this information, I add it as another possibility.  No fussin and fightin that way.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lodgepole (talk • contribs) 18:00, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  More on foot 

message: I note that the article is up to 13 quotes from Talleyrand; this is a little excessive, and it seems to me that they ought to be moved over to Wikiquote. --Gwern  (contribs) 07:40 1 August 2009 (GMT)
I agree here. Talleyrand's bon mots are often mis-ascribed (it was known in his own lifetime that many of things he was "said to have said" were in fact said by someone else) and while colorful when accurate, aren't generally of much historical value. See my comments above on the "avoid zeal" quote for an example of this. The snarky witticism, though it may be fun, doesn't advance the discussion of a man who participated in the public life of his nation from the late 1770s to the late 1830s.  A proper biography of Talleyrand needs a lot of careful historical writing; funny quotes, not so much . . 
So yes, move the quotes over to Wikiquote, and leave this article for documented history
Crocodilian (talk) 16:18, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I am amazed that the lengthy quotes section is still there, nearly three years after somebody said that it should be moved. There is a page about Talleyrand on Wikiquote now. That's where the quotes belong and where more can be added. Are there any objections to deleting the section?--Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 14:35, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It has been a month and nobody has commented on this any further. I have been bold and removed the quotes section. It was not an act of vandalism because, as I said last month, Talleyrand already has a page on Wikiquote that is linked to from this article. The quotes belong on Wikiquote, not here.--Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 10:56, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move quotes to Wikiquotes 

message: I find that the Order of the Rue Crown, also known as the Order of the Crown of Saxony (I suppose I should construct a redirect) existed in only one class, as did the Prussian Order of the Black Eagle.  The Order of the Sun is presumably the Qajar Persian order of that name, which seems to have been exclusively female. The Dutch source cited for these orders is unusually difficult to penetrate. J S Ayer (talk) 16:14, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I have decided not to construct the redirect of the Order of the Crown of Saxony. J S Ayer (talk) 01:24, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

text: The Persian order is, I perceive, also impossible.  This whole honours list needs to be reinvestigated. J S Ayer (talk) 02:57, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Honours 

message: Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that :File: will be appearing as picture of the day on February 2, 2020. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2020-02-02. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 12:29, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:File:{{Remove file prefix|Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord - Pierre-Paul Prud'hon.jpg}}]] to appear as POTD soon 

message: Article says, "After Napoleon's defeat, he withdrew claims to the title "Prince of Benevento", but was created Duke of Talleyrand with the style "Prince de Talleyrand" for life, in the same manner as his estranged wife.[25]"
:Who is "he"? As it reads it means, "After Napoleon's defeat, Napoleon withdrew claims", but that seems unlikely.
:BTW, what does "in the same manner as his estranged wife" mean? As it reads it seems to mean, "Napoleon was created Duke of Talleyrand with the style 'Prince de Talleyrand,' which is what Josephine called herself!"  Does the editor really mean that somebody's estranged wife had called herself a prince??? (PeacePeace (talk) 18:16, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antecedent of pronoun "he" is uncertain.  Will the editor fix ambiguities? 

message: Is it the Aliens Act 1793 ? Or something else ? 
What was the precise reason for his expulsion ? (if it's known)
Perhaps the hatred of the tough French royalists against a Revolution-friendly emigrant ? Jcqrcd44 (talk) 18:30, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is "Pitt's expulsion order"