Talk:Eugenics/Archive 1

message: Just because a few researchers didn't manage to find something in the congressional records doesn't mean it wasn't a factor; many politicians had enough sense even in the 1920s not to commit all of their thoughts to paper for posterity. The influence of pro-eugenics/pro-white-supremacy popularizers like Lothrop Stoddard ("The Rising Tide of Color Against White World Supremacy") and Madison Grant ("The Passing of the Great Race") over the public debate was such a major one that it simply cannot be ignored when talking about the Immigration Restriction Act of 1924. Also, one of the "researchers" mentioned, Richard Herrnstein, could hardly be considered an objective party in this debate, as his stance on issues like the heritability of IQ arguably provided a strong incentive for him to seek to exonerate eugenicists from charges of xenophobia-driven political activism.
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Eugenics also persisted longer in the United States than in any other country with Virginia only halting its sterilizations in 1979.
This sentence is incorrect for at least two reasons: 1. Virginia's sterilization program was put disuse long before 1979 (their laws were effectively disabled by 1974, but almost all sterilization had ended in the USA by 1963, even if some of the laws stayed officially on the books for much longer), 2. "eugenics" is itself an ideology, and as an ideology it became extremely unpopular in the USA after WWII; the sentence is getting "sterilization" and "eugenics" confused as one and the same, which is a common error but is more confusing than helpful. If one wanted to say something along these lines, I would instead use something like: "Eugenics as an ideology persisted in the United States until the end of World War II, when the atrocities of the Nazis were almost universally condemned. Sterilization laws, however, were used in significant numbers for at least twenty more years, and generalized racism persisted for much longer." --Fastfission 03:35, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Eugenics usually refers to efforts by society (in some form) to improve the genes of the human race or a subgroup. Individual efforts, whether based on sophisiticated gene-testing or just physical appearance, are closer to simple sexual selection. In any case, eugenics is not as "dead" as some would like. China's 'one-child' policy became eugenic when a law was passed requiring couples to receive gene counseling prior to marriage - couples with unacceptable genetic flaws have been required/encouraged to seek sterilization (and there are even allegations that some ethnic minorities, like Tibetans, are diagnosed as having more "flaws" than the Han majority). While I'd be hard-pressed to call it "legitimate," here is a website that keeps the pot boiling - www.neoeugenics.com [warning, the site contains offensive material]. Anyway, I've added a mention of the AES and a couple of notable members from the 1960's. (Hardin also served as AES president for a couple of years.)  Will McW 21:36, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there are of course fringe groups for every subject under the sun. I don't think there are any large scale eugenics movements -- I don't know anything about the Chinese situation you mention though so I can't comment on that. I'd be somewhat surprised that China has supposedly instituted mandatory genetic counseling for all marriages and nothing much has been made of it, but I'll look into it (the only country I know of that does mandatory genetic counseling before marriage is Cyprus, because of the high incidence of thallassemia, which rides the very fine line between eugenics and disease prevention). For the record, the page on One-child policy has nothing which would indicate this is the case. I'm a bit wary of posting AES members -- there were so many "members" and "membership" itself doesn't mean much unless you know the time period (membership in the 1920s = not that surprising; in the 1960s = pretty notable). Somewhere around here I have a list of many of the notable members of the Advisory Committee which could be useful, but then again, that sort of thing ought to go on the page of the AES, which does not exist at this time. But anyway, I will mull on this. In any event, I agree on the general distinction between programs aimed at group vs individual benefit being the key factor that distinguishes eugenics (as a group-selective approach). --Fastfission 00:21, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: FF- In 1995 the Chinese government actually passed what they called a "National Eugenics Law" (some claim that is a mis-translation) that later was renamed the "Maternal and Infant Health Law" after an outcry. I gather that it was revoked recently. There are numerous references on the Internet to it. I agree that eugenics was viewed very differently prior to WWII. The two members that I mention were both from the 1960's, and one was a president. It is too easy to think of eugenics as belonging to the past or to another country. (In that same vein, it might be worth including a reference to 'stirpiculture' and the Oneida Community.)Will McW 00:33, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I found references under the "Maternal and Infant Health Law," which is somewhat interesting and may warrant some inclusion. Anyway, again, I think the article does an okay job of indicating that there are a few fringe things in the present age which are somewhat eugenic in nature but as a whole -- to my knowledge -- there are no governments with active eugenics programs and eugenics is seen very unfavorably. I don't think the article tries  to say it was from another country (most of the article is on American eugenics), though for the most part it IS part of the past at this point unless one starts to speculate about genomics in the future or on a more broad-based definition of eugenics (i.e. all social programs relating to marriage). But anyway. I'm removing the somewhat un-germane essay from below because it's really just getting in the way of this Talk page, people can use the Talk:History if they want to read it. --Fastfission 13:50, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Good contribution on China. Another topic that I don't se mentioned in the modern eugenics section is any mention of the Pioneer Fund and The Bell Jar. The Pioneer Fund has a pre- and post-war history of funding eugenicly-related research. And while the Bell Jar did not propose any methods for improving intlligence, its research into the inheritability or intelligence is often accused of being related to eugenics. Those two topics are repeatedly discussed vis a vis eugenics, both in Wiki articles and many other references. Would you, FF, be interested in writing a couple of sentences on that topic?Will McW 07:31, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you mean The Bell Curve, not The Bell Jar (which is a book by Sylvia Plath). I don't think it really belongs under eugenics -- it is more a case of scientific racism, which already has a bit on the book. In any event, I did realize that for some reaosn scientific racism wasn't linked to from this article, so I have added that link in... I'll try to work scientific racism into the text somewhere, I think it is relevant here.--Fastfission 13:00, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Old, unsectioned comments

message: Basically "21st Century Eugenics". What do you think of it? Does anyone want to write about it?
:I think there's really as much as anyone can say at this point in the last section. People talk about implications of genetic engineering and argue whether it would be eugenics or not but beyond that there's nothing else to write at this point, in my opinion. --Fastfission 19:16, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As FF has said, modern efforts generally use different appellations. The article on "Liberal eugenics" brings the field into the modern age, though it has only a few differences from traditional eugenics. Transhumanism is an effort which includes some eugenics goals. -Willmcw 05:55, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: The term I've seen for this in a number of sources, which ought to have its own article at some point, is reprogenetics (when reproductive biology and genetics are combined). I think it is worth talking about in its own page, even if it can be perhaps interepretted as a form of eugenics (it is a controversial question). At some point, I'll write this up. --Fastfission 00:27, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  ``consumer eugenics´´ or ``free-market eugenics´´ 

message: Ah, another day, another brand-new user inserting historical revisionism to the "eugenics" page. Coincidence? Who knows. Doesn't really matter either way. But anyway—I don't recall even a revisionist like Lynn saying that only 300 to 400 Germans were sterilized (the Nazis own proud declarations were literally a thousand times higher than that, so maybe you're not carrying the zeros correctly), which is clearly nonsense, but needless to say, erasing the notes of the euthanasia program, the rhetoric of racial hygiene, and other clearly documented aspects of the German situation (and aspects that even the Nazis were transparent about) has brought us to the more absurd ends of this historical revisionism being pushed into this page, and was thus once again appropriately reverted. Keep it coming, guys—it takes you more time to type up this nonsense than it does to correct it, thank goodness. --Fastfission 22:09, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is the sentence from Lynn's paragraph on page 28 of Eugenics: a Reassessment that mentions 300 to 400 Germans sterilized — "It has been estimated that between 1933 and 1939, 300 to 400 Germans were sterilized, about half of whom were mentally retarded and the other half were mentally ill and and physically disabled (Bok, 1983; Muller-Hill, 1988)." It would seem that Lynn might have intended the word "thousand" to follow the phrase "300 to 400," considering that the last sentence in that paragraph reads, "As a proportion of the population, more sterilizations were carried out in Sweden than in Nazi Germany," and considering that Lynn mentions on page 34 that, "In 1997 it emerged that approximately 60,000 people had been sterilized in Sweden between 1934 and 1976. This was about double the number as a proportion of the population that had been sterilized in Nazi Germany between 1933 and 1939." (In 1950, Sweden had a population of 7 million. Germany (including Austria) had a population 76,275,200 in 1939. This would mean ~0.86% of Sweden's population was sterilized, and 0.39-0.52% of Germany-Austria's population was sterilized.) --hitssquad 06:55, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I think it can go without saying that Lynn is a pretty lousy historical source (the lack of a "thousand" is a pretty big omission). If you'd like, I can post some of the reviews of his work in historical journals; they aren't pretty. Maybe we can stick to respected historical sources for our history. Also, I think that calling eugenics a "science" is a bit of a stretch -- it is more of a social philosophy, and the science with which it claims to engage is human genetics/heredity/psychology/etc. Eugenics is about how to run/structure a society, not how to conduct experiments, etc. --Fastfission 16:07, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Lynn "corrections"

message: I see no reason Brave New World shouldn't be listed. It is often brought up in allusion to eugenics (i.e. Bush's statement about entering a "Brave New World" of stem cells and genetics). Certainly relevant for a "See also" section.
As for the ordering of links, the mainstream opinion is currently that eugenics was wrong and emphasizes the historical approach (I cannot see a way to separate "historical" and "anti-eugenics" websites as most are one and the same). It should be listed before the fringe eugenics advocacy websites, since this article is more about the history of the idea than it is about its present fringe manifestations.
I don't mind listing Lynn's book but I do want to mark it off as controversial and not accepted by most mainstream pscyhologists or geneticists. I have no problem listing controversial things but I do want to make sure they are demarcated so as not to cause confusion over the "scientific" opinion. --Fastfission 16:20, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Brave New World, ordering of links

message: Lynn's book is an empirically supported scholarly thesis that cites dozens of studies; it is far less political than "War against the weak".  Maybe a better idea than to simply label books with the subjective term "controversial" would be to list scholarly or notable objections that have been raised against them. AndyCapp 23:17, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Lynn's book is extremely controversial and most geneticists and even psychologists have taken umbrage with it (and let's not even get into the historical accuracy of it; it is full of blatant errors and deliberate misinterpretations). "Controversial" is not a subjective term -- perhaps you need to look up what it means. It means, "it has attracted controversy," which Lynn's book certainly did. The Origin of Species is also a controversial book; the term does not judge accuracy. The reason for labeling it was a "controversial book supporting eugenics" is that on the face of it, it is not clear what its status is in the scientific community by its title alone. Black's book, on the other hand, is much more straightforward: from the title alone you can tell exactly what his agenda is and judge it accordingly. It is not a controversial book because it has generated controversy (the most biting reviews of it say that Black says nothing new). If this were a page about each book, I'd be glad to index in detail how they were reviewed and received. As such, this is a page about eugenics as a whole, and noting which books are inside and outside of the general canon serves a purpose for the reader. It does not say, "this book is inaccurate" -- it lets the reader decide how they feel about the mainstream acceptance of a book. It is simply a reflection of how it was received; again, it is a sociological argument, not an ontological argument. I'm changing it back; if you have further thoughts on this please let me know. If you're having difficulty distinguishing between sociological and ontological arguments, I'd be happy to clarify. --Fastfission 00:12, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Captions on book listings

message: Please see Category_talk:Eugenics for a discussion on the appropriateness or lack thereof of this categorization.  AndyCapp 13:07, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Regarding categorization under "pseudoscience"

message: Anyone observing the history of the discussions will see there are issues. Complaints are always answered the same way by these two users who are very stubborn and consequently making it impossible for different minded people to contribute without dealing with non stop reverts and edits. Discussion seems pointless as well, because they easily call someone a nazi or racist and even bluntly state they do not wish to reach consensus.
Unverifiable sources are used, as well as non factual statements that are either backed up by the author's knowledge about how the average human feels about something, or a random statement fished up with google that was floating around on the internet.
Since it seems impossible to reach consensus I'd like more neutral people to get involved and either explain why this is normal on wikipedia, or that these individuals are POV pushers and that their behavior is unacceptable. With their current attitude I doubt the situation will improve.
:Can you please state the specific issues that are POV in the article? Thanks, -Willmcw 19:09, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
::Let's look at the change he wants to make:
::My version: 
:::After World War II, however, the invocation of eugenics by the government of Nazi Germany as a justification for its racial policies caused the philosophy to become almost universally reviled.
::His version:
:::The adoption of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights by the United Nations in 1948 caused the philosophy to become almost universally rejected.
::Now notice that when I pointed out that the UNDHR was created itself as a response to "the horrors of World War II", he them claimed that this wasn't in reference to eugenics. So he wants to insert something which is logically implausible (the adoption of a UN resolution resulted in universal revulsion) and then when it is pointed out that the UN resolution was the result of World War II he wants to claim it has nothing to do with eugenics. And yet he still wants it in the introductory paragraph claiming that it was what led to the revulsion of eugenics. All of this is pretty ridiculous even without having much knowledge of the subject, or looking at any of the basic sources I've mentioned, all of which are considered standard texts on the subject (which he apparently has no access to and has never read and yet thinks himself an expert on the topic).
::In any event, this entire "dispute" comes down to something which is plainly a factual question and has nothing to do with pushing my "POV" in any way. The guy clearly wants to expunge the one reference to the Nazis in the intro -- and a very neutral one at that, it doesn't at all imply that what the Nazis did was actually eugenics -- and in some way make it seem that the UN was behind people disliking eugenics. Which, aside from being logically incoherent, is historically incorrect, as is evidenced by his inability to cite any sources at all in support of it. 
::Now the ultimate rejection of eugenics is a complicated historical question, one which I've done quite a bit of original research on (which I'm not going to try and go into or insert into this article). Many sterilization programs continued around the globe, including in the US, for a few more decades (whether this had anything to do with the question of eugenics is a somewhat even more difficult question to answer, one which I have spent a number of years working on as an academic researcher). In the US and Europe, most skepticism of eugenics (both in the scientific community and popular) began before the Holocaust as well -- it had already lost a good deal of influence before WWII broke out, as it was becoming more and more associated with fanatical jeremiads than it did real science. Even scientists who believed that such a thing was possible and good (i.e. Julian Huxley) wrote essays about distancing the ideas of hereditary modification from any notion of "eugenics", which was considered (by its opponents and its proponents) as more of a "religion" than anything else. The idea that the Holocaust was the sole cause of these changes of attitude is a view applied somewhat in retrospect -- attention to the "scientific" pretensions of the Holocaust did not become really focused until the late 1960s. All that being said, it is not a wholly incorrect generalization to say that the Holocaust had a tremendous effect on ideas of heredity, race, and political governance, and the UNESCO statements are an especially good indication of this. Eugenics and Nazism became synonymous over time, which is what is behind the near-universal revulsion. 
::But this guy is clearly a crank, and he is not making a nuanced historical argument. If he doesn't give a detailed and specific list of the lines in the article he considers POV within a few days, we should remove the POV warning. --Fastfission 19:40, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You must have skipped the talk having 'Neutral' in the topic title. --Scandum 08:56, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bullying by Fastfission and Williamcw