Talk:Mid central vowel

message: The first three discussions below took place at Talk:Mid central unrounded vowel, before the article was moved here. See also Talk:Schwa. FilipeS 19:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

message: According to the vowel chart here, the "a" sound from European Portuguese mentioned in the article is not a mid-central vowel. It's pretty close to being one, but it's slightly more open.  FilipeS 21:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is between mid and open-mid, therefore can be listed either here, or on open-mid central unrounded vowel. I'd say leave it here. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 17:25, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Portuguese "a" a mid-central vowel?

message: This article should be renamed Mid central vowel, and what is currently at Close-mid_central_rounded_vowel#Mid_central_rounded_vowel should be brought here. From the discussion here, it is clear that the IPA symbol  can stand for a rounded or unrounded vowel. This includes both the mid central unrounded vowel and the mid central rounded vowel. FilipeS 14:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But isn't the  used for a rounded vowel a schwa rather than specifically a mid-central vowel?  I'm not sure if we need to merge the rounded and unrounded varieties.  Do any languages contrast a rounded mid central vowel with an unrounded one?  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 19:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: [ʊ] and [æ] are defined as rounded and unrounded in the IPA Handbook ("near-close near-back rounded vowel" and "near-open front unrounded vowel"), but [ɐ] and [ə] are not ("near-open central vowel" and "mid central vowel"). Open vowels seldom have rounding contrasts, so that isn't much of an issue for [ɐ], but [ɐ]* could be rounded too. With [ɘ̞] you're clearly saying that the vowel is unrounded. With [ə] you're not (it could be [ɘ̞] or [ɵ̞]), and moreover only [ə] has the connotation of being a reduced vowel. For example, the Handbook says of French [ə] that it has "some rounding". kwami 08:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rename

message: Please explain in the introduction how this is related to / different from the Schwa. As it is, the beginning of the article is very confusing for non-experts, and it gets worse when they look at Mid_central_vowel#Occurs_in for help. --Espoo 09:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, isn't this the vowel that is used in General American English for practically any vowel character (as in the <a> in "about", the <e> in "item", the  in "edible", the <o> in "common", and the  in "circus")? Why isn't General American usage listed here? Isn't this also the same "uh" noise from German that is used with an <e> at the end of a word (i.e., "danke" or "Porsche")? The way this article is written, it makes it sound like it isn't in those languages. Yet you are directed here from the schwa article. RobertM525 (talk) 08:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This page indicates that it is used in both General American English as well as in German. I have added German to the article. I'm not quite sure what the best way to add GAE to the article would be... RobertM525 (talk) 01:21, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schwa 

message: I'm planning on removing the example of RP to Open-mid central unrounded vowel. See Talk:Open-mid central unrounded vowel#Received Pronunciation for my booksnooping notes. – ishwar  (speak) 05:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Aye, as of this writing, the RP transcription does not contain /ə/! It's a bit of a problem... -sche (talk) 22:48, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: RP example

message: In the English word wood which is pronouced (wud) sound very similar too (wəd), and the Hebrew word יין "wine" which is pronouced (jajin) sound very similar too (jajən). does this mean that (wu) and (ji) are the same as (wə) and (jə)?, does those count also as Mid-central vowel? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamsa123 (talk • contribs) 18:23, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It depends on the language.  "Sounding similar" is subjective and doesn't necessarily mean the sounds are the same.  — Æµ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 19:59, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does this count as a Mid-central vowel? 

message: Did someone else noted that it is represented in both rounded and unrounded columns without explaining? Lguipontes (talk) 05:06, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  West Frisian 

message: Missing: le, de, ne,.... --Pierrejcd (talk) 01:08, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: French is there in the second table. — Æµ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 04:38, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  French 

message: Energi is very rarely pronounced as it says in the article. The majority pronounce it with a clear /ɛ/ and the N is not long.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.255.182.142 (talk) 20:30, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, it does look a little funny.  I changed the example. — Æµ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 20:57, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Swedish 

message: The sound example given for "măr" sound nothing like the word. If you would pronounce it like that to a Romanian all you would get is funny looks. The given example sounds more like "meârrr", â being ɨ, and the e being very short; the r is also unusually long and overly pronounced.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.105.140.131 (talk) 07:43, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Romanian 

message: The hyphen in the title (mid-central rather than mid central) is inconsistent with the titles of other vowel articles. In all other titles (I think), the hyphen is placed in the words for either height (near-close, close-mid, open-mid, etc.) or backness (near-front, near-back). Placing a hyphen between the height (mid) and backness (central) is confusing. The article should be renamed Mid central vowel for consistency. Do others agree? — Eru·tuon 17:21, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It is also inconsistent with logic. The "mid" does not refer to "central", but to "vowel", as in mid vowel. A dash might make sense logically, but I don't know if that would fly. --JorisvS (talk) 17:43, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

text: I do agree. I actually thought about raising this issue a few months ago. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 18:14, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

text: I tend to agree too. I don't think a dash would help either. But I see from the logs that the page was originally titled "mid central", and was moved in 2010 - perhaps User:Kwamikagami, who moved it, had some reasons for doing so? W. P. Uzer (talk) 20:25, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

text: Here, let us ping, just in case: . — Eru·tuon 21:35, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: My reason was that it is not a central vowel that is mid (a mid central vowel), as opposed to a mid vowel that is central (a central mid vowel), but a vowel that is simultaneously and equally mid and central, with neither taking precedence.  I believe that hyphens are typically used for such things.  In other vowel names, the frontness and height seem like to independent dimensions; here they're more like a single right in the middle.  But I'm not going to argue if someone moves it.  — kwami (talk) 19:56, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm, I am puzzled by your reasoning; we don't write, for instance, mid-front rounded vowel or mid-back unrounded vowel. I think the height and backness of a vowel are always considered to be coequal characteristics, with neither taking precedence. I suppose what you're saying is simply that the mid central vowel is equally central in both height and backness, but I'm not sure why that should make it unique as far as naming is concerned. — Eru·tuon 20:15, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

text: I'm not persuaded by Kw's reasoning either - well, certainly not by the first reason, which would apply to all other vowels as well, if it were valid. As to the second reason, I'd only be persuaded if it could be shown that significant reliable sources use a hyphen in this case while omitting it in the others as we do. W. P. Uzer (talk) 20:49, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: By kwami's reasoning we should use a dash (in all these articles), not a hyphen nor a space. --JorisvS (talk) 23:02, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you write "a nice–warm day" or "a big–ugly dog"?? W. P. Uzer (talk) 08:18, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

text: Apparently no objections, so I've done it. W. P. Uzer (talk) 20:59, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hyphen in title 

message: There also seems to be quite a bit of vagueness surrounding ə's nature. One book indicates that it is both an indeterminate vowel and is actually used in the stressed syllables of the General American words, "cup" and "luck" (despite other sources insisting that ə is used exclusively for the unstressed version of ʌ.)
Also, I must say, I hear no distinction between the vowel in "about" and the vowel in "stuff." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Midi file man (talk • contribs) 15:58, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: and  used for the STRUT vowel both have more to do with phonology than with phonetics. Phonetically, STRUT is usually somewhere between [ɐ] and [ə] in both RP and GA, but it used be more back, so  reflects that. Some people consider STRUT in American English to be an allophone of /ə/ that surfaces when stressed, so  is often used for STRUT. See English phonology. Nardog (talk) 16:22, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Even so, should this be noted in the English part of occurrences section of the article? Midi file man (talk) 08:57, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't that already covered by the notes and the example bust? Not sure what exactly you're suggesting. Nardog (talk) 22:54, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA: ʌ vs. ə 

message: The audio file for the "Mid central rounded vowel", represented as [ɵ̞],[ə̹], or [ɞ̝], appears not to work. I don't think it is an issue with my computer or headphones, as I can hear the unrounded audio file, as well as the audio files for related pages, just fine. A look at the file history indicates that this is the only version of the file that has ever appeared here. Here's a direct link to the audio file on Wikimedia: Mid_central_rounded_vowel.ogg. Oddly, despite my browser (Firefox 64) giving no warnings about a corrupted file, clicking "play" does nothing, in contrast to working audio files of similar length. That is, it appears to be a corrupted version of an audio file, as opposed to just an audio file with no sound. Finally, the user who created the file, User:Sigmath_Bits/sandbox, has one other contribution in their sandbox---an audio file for the "Near-close back unrounded vowel"---and it works just fine. GreatBigDot (talk) 19:15, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Audio file for rounded variant not working 

message: Kbb2 has recently edited a number of articles about central vowels. Basically, the edits consist in removing several languages from the articles Mid central vowel [ə] or Near-open central vowel [ɐ] and instead describing them at the articles Close-mid central unrounded vowel [ɘ] or Open-mid central unrounded vowel [ɜ].
I am a bit worried by all these changes. As far as German is concerned, the changes appear not to be backed by the sources provided. My expertise is limited to German, so I cannot vouch for the other languages. However, since the changes concerning German are not backed by the sources, I wonder whether the changes concerning other languages really are.
So the question is: are these changes really justified?
With regard to German, the most important changes are the following:
#	Article                              	Diff     	Edit summary                                                                                         	
1	Mid central vowel [ə]                	866989800	rm - most modern sources seem to describe it as more close-mid than mid, which is how it sounds to me	
2	Close-mid central unrounded vowel [ɘ]	866990538	most modern sources describe this as close-mid, there's no need to list it at mid central vowel      	
3	Near-open central vowel [ɐ]          	866987785	rm - this is open-mid                                                                                	
4	Open-mid central unrounded vowel [ɜ] 	866988103	+Standard German (this is open-mid)                                                                  	
More in depth critique of the sources provided for German [ə]: All the sources provided so far transcribe German [ə] as a mid central vowel by using the sign [ə]. None of the sources identify it as a close-mid central unrounded vowel or use any one of the corresponding transcriptions [ɘ ë ɤ̈ ə̝]:
*  (cited in Close-mid central unrounded vowel)
** Page 98 says that “/ə/ is a lax central vowel with a tongue position between half-open and half-close […].” It goes on to say that “[i]n final position, however, English /ə/ tends to be much more open than the German sound.” This is followed by an illustration showing “G. ə” in a central position of the vowel space (slightly above, but clearly not close-mid) and “E. final ə” in near-open position.
** Page 107 shows again German “ə” slightly above the central position, but not in close-mid position.
*  (cited in Close-mid central unrounded vowel)
** Page 34 shows “[ə]” a little bit above the central position, but not in near open position. Note that other vowels such as [eː e], [ɛː ɛ], [oː o] are are shifted a similar distance from their default cardinal vowel place, and [yː y], [øː ø] considerably further.
*  (cited in Standard_German_phonology as a source for the statement that German “/ə/ has been variously described as […] close-mid central unrounded ”)
** This is not a reliable source, but a blog entry. John Wells certainly is a English linguist of some renown, but as a mere blog entry this is just an opinion and does not overthrow the plethora of reliable sources that identify German [ə] as a [[mid central vowel [ə]]]. Plus as far as I know he has never published anything about German phonetics.
* Further sources identifying German [ə] as mid central are found in Standard German phonology.
For German [ɐ], the picture is pretty much the same.
 Unless you can provide reliable sources that explicitly identify German [ə] as a close-mid central unrounded vowel and German [ɐ] as a open-mid central unrounded vowel, I will revert your changes soon. The current situation is untenable, where the articles Mid central vowel [ə] and Near-open central vowel [ɐ] do not even mention (standard) German any longer, even though this is how the entire body of literature on German phonetics refers to them. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 16:57, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for starting the discussion, I was about to do the same but you beat me to it. I'll reply in a short time. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 17:07, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have now removed the claims not found in the sources given that I have highlighted, both in this article and in Close-mid central unrounded vowel. I know you have promised to reply. Three weeks have passed, though. It is better not to keep the unsourced material in the article. If you find sources, you can always add it again. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 16:35, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Challenging the recent edits by Kbb2, especially concerning German 

message: american english has schwa Dankpods (talk) 17:40, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  i call bullshit 

message: Dutch notes mention /ʏ/ which links to /ɵ/. IDon'tFindAName (talk) 12:44, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dutch