Talk:Bloody Sunday (1939)

message: "The Nazis exploited the deaths as grounds for a massacre of Polish inhabitants after the Wehrmacht captured the town."  Should that not more ordinarily be termed "a reprisal". Hakluyt bean (talk) 01:49, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, this seems problematic as POV and should be tagged accordingly.JDanek007Talk 03:31, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

text:  added after the statement in the intro JDanek007Talk 07:57, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  language & tone 

message: ...is problematic. First it completely fails to mention the works of such German historians as Gunther Schubert  (The Bromberg Bloody Sunday: Death of a Legend refers to the death of the Nazi legend about this supposed "atrocity") whose research basically accords with what the article insists on calling "the Polish version" (i.e. not the version propagated by the Nazis during the war). Specifically in regard to whether not there were attacks by German "diversionists" Schubert shows that there was a pre-planned action directed at retreating Polish troops, organized with the participation of agents from outside the city, who arrived for this very purpose.
Along the same lines, this division of sources into "the Polish version" and the "the German version" is inaccurate or at least outdated. As the example of Schubert shows, newer German research basically says the same thing as this so-called "Polish version". In fact this kind of a nationally-based dichotomy serves as a sneaky tactic to pretend that there is "real" (as opposed to "imagined" or "fringe") current (as opposed to outdated) debate on the topic and to give equal weight to both views currently accepted by historians and those which have been rejected (but which I'm sure still have quite a prominence on some sites on the net).
 Volunteer Marek  17:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "the debate in scholarship" section... 

message: I added the talk page header, which wasn't already included on this page, and also searchable archives, since the archive for this talk page is large and full of some very contentious talk. JDanek007Talk 03:24, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archive (2014) 

message: A lot of stuff here is based on outdated information from 2003 and 2004. After this year there was a special committee organized by Polish historians and they researched archives in Poland and Germany regarding these events. One of the findings was report by German general Lahousen who praised the sabotage action in Bydgoszcz. Most of this is located in  Dr. Tomasz Chincinski book  "Forpoczta Hitlera. Niemiecka dywersja w Polsce w 1939 roku" published in 2010.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 11:45, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Documents from German archive reveal General Erwin Lahousen praising German saboteurs in Bydgoszcz 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The consensus alleged in some sections of this article may be a consensus among Polish historians. There's no such consensus in Germany or anywhere else in the world. In fact, the possibility of the massacre being a behind-enemy-lines operation is even positively ruled out by some respected non-partisan historians. Now, I'm not saying that I or anyone knows the infallible truth; but it is apparent that editors around here have given in to Polish POV pushing. The article should be rewritten and protected.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.204.102.169 (talk) 02:34, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: IP - First, register your avatar, no one will take you seriously if you don't.  Second, if you have sources that refute the "...consensus among Polish historians", then bring it on.  You're not bringing anything to the discussion by just sitting on the sidelines and complaining. It's too easy to do that... Dinkytown talk 07:40, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: This problem was already raised before. The article completely ignores modern non-Polish research like the University of Oldenburgs view ("Die Ursachen dieser Ereignisse sind in der Forschung bis heute umstritten: Die Mehrheit der polnischen Historiker vertritt die These,...Der polnische Historiker Włodzimierz Jastrzębski und viele seiner deutschen Kollegen lehnen die These eines deutschen Sabotageakts ..ab.." transl.: In scientific research the causes of these events remain disputed: The majority of Polish historian argue... The Polish historian Włodzimierz Jastrzębski and many of his German colleagues reject the thesis of German sabotage...) or Wolfgang Benz' "Enzyklopädie des Nationalsozialismus"  which clearly states that the exact circumstances remain unclear.  HerkusMonte (talk) 11:43, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting, but need more on that. Who are his 'many German colleagues'? Is his research published in English or Polish? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:49, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

text: We have been discussing this before.This is an outdated information repeated.Since 2010 documents are known that confirm that this was diversion operation. The only dispute is the number of eliminated saboteurs.To be more specific documents uncovered concern transport of weapons to sabotage groups in Bydgoszcz before the war, report that "our saboteurs in Bydgoszcz sustained heavy losses in Bydgoszcz", name of contact person coordinating action in Bydgoszcz with Abwehr and German army and transport of wounded operatives etc.We also know that General Erwin Lahousen was praising German saboteurs in Bydgoszcz. If there are German historians who claim Wehrmacht and Abwehr documents uncovered in archive in Freiburg im Breisgau in recent years(2009-2010) are fabrications I would be interested to know. A conclusive study of these events was concluded in recent years using German archives which contain a lot of information and confirm that this was a diversion operation that Germans botched and which ended miserably. They were others, scholar Tomasz Chincinski counts around 230 such events during Invasion of Poland and estimates number of Abwehr agents in Poland recruited into paramilitary groups attacking Polish soldiers and cities at around 20,000 in addition to Selbstschutz. See Forpoczta Hitlera: niemiecka dywersja w Polsce w 1939 roku
Tomasz Chinciński 2010--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:02, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Every single of the sources listed above was published after the IPN publication, the DHM (in February 2017) explicitly states that the IPN study "could not contribute to the final clarification". No, these are not outdated sources and No, the IPN is not the Ministry of Truth. The article completely ignores non-Polish research, pretty obviously. HerkusMonte (talk) 06:53, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: "The article completely ignores non-Polish research, pretty obviously" - this part at least is demonstrably false, although for some reason you are trying to remove this "non-Polish research" from the article . Volunteer Marek  07:12, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:CHERRYPICKING and obviously false summary of what the source actually says, yes I deleted that. Böhler just reports what is already described at length, he does not take sides, he does not "confirm" anything. HerkusMonte (talk) 07:40, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alleged consensus 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The background section includes:
:For months prior to the 1939 German invasion of Poland, German newspapers and politicians like Adolf Hitler had carried out a national and international propaganda campaign accusing Polish authorities of organizing or tolerating violent ethnic cleansing of ethnic Germans living in Poland.
Does anyone know which source this is based on? No references are linked to in the first 2 paragraphs and then suddenly 3 are linked after the 1st sentence in the 3rd. I'd like to know what specifics are known about these accusations such as dates / casualties and whether 'violent cleansing' referred to murder or forced extradition.
If going into too much detail begins to bloat the background section, we could consider exporting the information to a new article. In that case I'm interested in fielding ideas for what to call it. background to Bloody Sunday or German accusations against Polish authorities ? Ideally if someone could identify what source(s) this is based on, a name might be extrapolated from their phrasing. ScratchMarshall (talk) 17:34, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Background

message: Somebody above said "Register your avatar, or nobody will take you seriously." I must confess that registered avatar never entered my mind as basis of taking someone seriously. Can someone explain to me why registering an avatar should be an issue in taking someone seriously? (PeacePeace (talk) 15:53, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Register your avatar, or nobody will take you seriously? 

message: This Polish Propaganda Page is a monstrous outrage against history. "German saboteurs dressed up in Polish uniforms". Just a joke. Fortunately the Swiss Red Cross were monitoring events against the German minority throughout the interwar period. 2A00:23C4:B607:CF00:19E4:6141:4073:DC11 (talk) 10:45, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Show us reliable sources upon which you base your claims and we'll talk. Polish nationalism is no more appropriate than German nationalism here. But vandalism like this [] will simply get you banned from editing Wikipedia. Generalrelative (talk) 15:21, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Outrage

message: Phrases like "heavily exploited the events" could be changed to "used" to retain neutral wording.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Memethepenguin (talk • contribs) 21:54, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This is what reliable secondary sources say. See e.g. the block quote from Ian Kershaw's book just after this language appears in the article. Generalrelative (talk) 22:25, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tone and wording 

message: Hi,
I just wanted to point out a possible misquoting of historian Böhler. 
A user on a deleted r/askhistorians post feels Böhler to claim that evidence is "supposed to show," rather than neccessarily actually showing. 
Sorry if I broke some rule and for not having an account.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.240.212.224 (talk) 15:02, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misquoting Böhler? 

message: This topic seems well covered (and referenced) on pl wiki. That includes several subarticles that we may want to translate:
* :pl:Niemieckie represje wobec ludności Bydgoszczy (1939)->German repressions against Bydgoszcz citizens (1939) (lead gives the figure of 5,000 victims by December that year)
* :pl:Sondergericht Bromberg->Sondergericht Bromberg(?) about German special court in Bydgoszcz
* :pl:Zbrodnia w Boryszewie-Boryszew massacre, related to the POWs deaths about executions of 50 members of Bydgoszcz Civil Defence (:pl:Batalion ON „Bydgoszcz”) due to false accusations of their involvement in the Bloody Sunday events
For now, such articles can be linked using . Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:32, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing Polish Wikipedia articles to translate