Talk:List of fictional anarchists

message: I've been considering this character lately, and decided I ought to bring up my reasons for not including him in the list before it becomes an issue.
This is a Marvel Comics superhero created during the 90s, who is presently dead.  I have decided that I don't think he qualifies for listing on the basis that while his name is "anarchist," that isn't a descriptive term he uses for himself or which the creators gave him.  Rather, it's simply a dynamic alias which has no greater baring on his character.  Considering him an anarchist in this context would be like considering Daredevil fit for a Fictional Demon category.
My understanding is that there was another DC comics character created pre-crisis who was also called "The Anarchist," and who fought the Justice League.  As an obscure, d-rate character, I don't think he has seen the light of day since the 70s.  I could be wrong.  I would also not nominate that character for inclusion for the same reasons as Tike Alicar.
Again, I don't expect it to come up, but I figured I'd voice this before it did.  If anyone disagrees, feel free to mention it.--Cast 00:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Anarchist (comics)|The Anarchist (Tike Alicar)]] 

message: The character Carnage (comics) has just been added to the list, but the footnote acknowledges that source material does not explicitly refer to the character as an anarchist.  Implied anarchic philosophy is not a proper source citation.  The character will be removed from the list until a explicit citation can be provided.--Cast 19:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carnage 

message: Should we simply redirecy the redlinked The Invisibles characters to List of Invisibles Characters? Skomorokh incite 20:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, for now.  In the long term, these characters should get their own pages.  The main characters are notable, while secondary characters less so are not included.  This whole page needs to be revamped in several ways.  Standardized citations, descriptions, and a few images, etc.--Cast (talk) 21:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''The Invisibles'' characters 

message: Now if you thought Green Arrow would be controversial...
Frank Miller says Bruce Wayne, "if anything, he's a bit of an idealistic anarchist" in The Dark Knight Strikes Back. As one of the most influential authors of the character in the past twenty years, he carries some clout, but his interpretation of the character is certainly unique.
Thoughts? ~ Switch (✉✍☺☒) 02:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as there is no competing source which says he is a non-anarchist or otherwise aligned, sure, why not? We can always account for the weakness of the claim by including the quote in the ref. скоморохъ 02:22, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have never hated this list's policy of inclusion more than I do now. ಠ___ಠ  However, perhaps there is a matter of interpretation we've not noticed until now.  Consider Merlyn.  As the wizard who gave a King power, you'd hardly consider him an anarchist.  However, as he was portrayed by T.H. White, he is distinctly an anarchist, and so appears on this list.  To note this shift from his usual portrayal, I've included a note next to him: (as portrayed by the author).  How about we begin including notes next to characters interpreted as anarchists, rather than originally designed as them. "(as portrayed by ___)" or "(as interpreted by ___)" , can be an important distinction used.  Also, I've begun to fill in more details for characters; about a paragraph for each, explaining a little about the character from an out-universe perspective.  For example, I was able to point out that Pa'u Zotoh Zhaan was eliminated from Farscape because the actress playing her was ill.  Green Arrow has a little explanation that he is typically portrayed as a liberal, but was interpreted by O'Neil as an anarchist.  So to sum up, lets start including notes of who is interpreting them as anarchists if they weren't created as such, and give descriptions of how they are usually portrayed.  Sound fair?--Cast (talk) 02:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, claims should be attributed and qualified wherever appropriate. There's no need for all-or-nothing anarchist-or-not decisions. And at 35k, there's plenty of room for fuller descriptions.скоморохъ 02:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Reworded the intro.  This new issue of interpretation will primarily be needed in the Comics section, given the nature of a shared universe in western comics.  Shared universes are less commonly used in literature and hardly ever in films.--Cast (talk) 20:31, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Batman 

message: I don't have the books any more, but there is an anarchist faction of the population in Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy, at least one of which is a major character. Also, pleasantly, the representation of anarchists in the novels is accurate and generally positive. Does anyone have a copy of the book so we can cite these characters? ~ Switch (✉✍☺☒) 23:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I imagine you may have tried google books already.  There's an article on the Mars trilogy, if that may be of use.--Cast (talk) 00:25, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Clearly didn't read your own post properly, as you already have a link up.  I blame the metric system.--Cast (talk) 01:35, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mars Trilogy 

message: Okay, so in The Dark Knight, there is a single line when the Joker states that he wishes to "introduce a little anarchy" into society.  Sounds like the kind of thing Nolan would have the Joker say, given that he also had Heath dress up like a hobo and smear himself with makeup.  But does that make him an anarchist?  No.  The Joker never states that he is an anarchist.  He never advocates a stateless society in a positive or negative sense.  And even if he did, we'd still need a citation of him saying he's an anarchist.  So do we have any word from Nolan on this?  All we have is a quote from Heath saying he played the Joker as "a psychotic."  No mention of the Joker as an anarchist there.  So I don't think the Joker belongs on this list.  When a citation is found, he can be added.--Cast (talk) 01:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: To me, all that sounds pretty anarchic. And I think that at least "When Ledger saw Batman Begins, he realized a way to make the character work consistent with the film's tone, and Nolan agreed with his anarchic interpretation" and "In creating the "anarchical" look of the Joker, Hemming drew inspiration from such countercultural pop culture artists as Pete Doherty, Iggy Pop, and Johnny Rotten" from The Dark Knight page means that the creators had the anarchy angle in mind.89.216.110.89 (talk) 01:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, yes, I'm sure it's all very "anarchic", but at the very top of the article there is a series of paragraphs which should be read.  They indicate that being popularly considered "anarchic" does not an anarchist make.  You've got to be very specific, because the conception of anarchy and chaos are very muddled, and one does not necessarily indicate one is an anarchist.  I think that it's telling that in the attempt to draw inspiration for the character, we get three figures who are not anarchists.  I don't think the creator's are using the word "anarchy" the way a character like V would.  Frankly, you're digging yourself a hole here.--Cast (talk) 01:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I really don't know what else I can say to convince you that Nolan's Joker is really an anarchist. I thought it would be obvious and that me editing Joker into the article would go without any disputes. I get the impression that most people think of him as one. Just because it hasn't been stated a million times that he is one like in V's case doesn't mean he isn't an anarchist.89.216.110.89 (talk) 01:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, all you need to convince me is for it to be stated once – just once – within the film, or by the creators responsible for that incarnation of the Joker, that he is an "anarchist".  That would be either the writer, director, or actor.  So far, you can't produce a single quote.  We don't need to know that someone has an "impression" that "most" people think of him as an anarchist.  That's called original research.  Besides, you don't have to produce a "million" – just one.  We need one of them to use the word "anarchist" in relation to the Joker.  Not "anarchic".  Not "anarchical".  Not "psychocotic hobo clown inspired by Johnny Rotton."  Anarchist.  Get us that, and not only can you add him, but you'll have to beat me to the punch, because I'll want to add him.  I've added a bunch of characters to this list, even if I didn't like them, so long as I found that one citation.--Cast (talk) 01:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Addendum – also, you've been using "throughout" in that little stub citation you've got for the Joker.  As in, "the character throughout the script of the film states that his mission is anarchy."  That's a blatant misrepresentation.  You and I both know he only uses the word "anarchy" once.  Just once.  There are no consistent references to anarchy, and there are absolutely no references to anarchists, or anarchism.  That citation is original research.  But I can't delete it now, or I'll go over the three revert rule.  Great.  I'll wait until tomorrow.--Cast (talk) 01:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: When you said "anarchist" in relation to the Joker. Not "anarchic". Not "anarchical"", aren't those basically the same thing? And a song in the movie called "Introduce A Little Anarchy" is most likely based around him for christ sakes. I still don't see what kind of evidence you're missing. 89.216.110.89 (talk) 02:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, technically they should be the same thing, but due to common misconceptions regarding anarchist philosophy, popular culture utilizes these terms in a different way than one would if one were speaking in a strictly technical sense.  Strictly speaking, anarchy doesn't refer to negative variations of chaos, both being neutral terms.  Anarchy also does not refer to mayhem, bedlem, madness, carnage, or insanity.  Anarchism is also not to be confused with nihilism or anomie.  However, anarchism and anarchists carry baggage of a hundred years of negative stereotyping in popular discourse.  As such, you'll get quotes from many people referring to Osama Bin Ladin, Charles Manson, or even Johnny Rotton, as examples of anarchists.  Stereotypes run the range from your mass murdering "psychotics", to your counter-culture popstars who cut themselves on stage with glass.  Due to this problem, the category for fictional anarchists was nominated for deletion.  It was felt that the category was choked with non-anarchists, who editors were adding to the category due to their own personal opinions regarding what an anarchist looked like.  The category was kept, but it was decided that to prevent the list and category from becoming muddled, it would have to be maintained with the strict guideline that the source material, or the creators of said material, must state the character is an "anarchist."  When that word is used, there is a higher likelihood that the creator is using the term in its proper sense.  The issue of whether they then present a positive or negative image of an anarchist is subject to their opinion – not the opinion of the editor.  So now, this list has an eclectic mix of positive and negative anarchist caricatures, but all of them have been identified by the term "anarchist" in their source material. --Cast (talk) 02:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Joker 

message: In afterword of Lolita Nabokov described him as an anarchist.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.201.159.220 (talk) 21:11, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Humbert 

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message: ￼where my man at 2603:6011:EDF0:93E0:343F:DCEA:8614:DD99 (talk) 13:42, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hobie brown