Talk:World War II/Infobox/Archive 1

message: Due to the constant edit reversions, I've put temporary protection on the page for three days. Oberiko 19:28, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Protection

message: ====Oberiko====
Image	Description                                        	Historical significance                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          	Aspect of the war
     	Nanking massacre                                   	The Nanking massacre was the brutal occupation of the Chinese capital and is still considered one of the most iconic war crimes.  While taking place prior to the start of the European War, The judgments on the aggressors occurred during the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal after the end of the Second World War.	The aspect shown is atrocities against civilians in what would be now known as total war, something the Second World War uniquely exemplifies.  This is also a picture to somewhat represent the Chinese, and is one of the defining moments of the Second Sino-Japanese War.
     	Pearl Harbour                                      	Pearl Harbour was the catalyst for two critical events: uniting the Asian War with the European War, thus forming the World War, and bringing the United States (along with several other American countries) into the war as Allied combatants.                                                                 	The aspect shown is that of carrier based warfare, something which totally restructured naval warfare, replacing the centuries old thinking of centering naval forces around heavily armed and armoured battleships.  In addition it also shows a relatively typical military aircraft for the time period.
     	Battle of Kursk                                    	Kursk was the last major German offensive in the Soviet-German War and among the largest battles of all time; after Kursk the Soviets began one long, steady push into Germany.  Several historical sources list it as the turning point of the war itself.                                                      	The aspect shown is that of armoured warfare, something which came to maturity during the Second World War and proved to be the dominant terrain-based method of warfare outside of urban centers.
     	Battle of Normandy                                 	An iconic battle in Western culture, the landings at Normandy was the largest sea-borne invasion in history and began the liberation of conquered Europe.  It was one of the first large joint operations by the Anglo-American led Western Allies.                                                              	The aspect shown is sea-borne invasion, a prominent feature in the Western European Theatre (Torch, Sicily, Italy, Southern France, Normandy) and during the island-hopping campaign in the Asia-Pacific Theatre (Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal etc.).  It is also an image to represent the Western Allies battle with German forces.
     	The Battle of Berlin                               	The battle which captured the capital of Germany, prompting the surrender of the Third Reich and serving as the end of the European Theatre of the war                                                                                                                                                           	The aspect shown is that of urban warfare, again something which matured during the Second World War and was utilized in several of the most brutal battles during the conflict
     	The mushroom cloud from the atomic bombing of Japan	The first (and only) usage of atomic weapons during combat and the triggering event to end the war.                                                                                                                                                                                                              	The aspect shown is the use of weapons of mass destruction and the peak of military technology at the time, it also serves as an introduction to the almost immediately following Cold War.
=====Overview=====
I chose these images in order to try and balance historical events and the various aspects of the war.  
* I've tried to show the chronological progression of the war, from the initial Axis invasions (Nanking, Pearl Harbour), the tide turning (Kursk, Normandy) and then the end of the war (Berlin, Atomic Bombs)
* I've covered naval, aerial, infantry and armoured warfare, as well as strategic bombing.  
* I've tried to demonstrate the military equipment in use by showing carriers, tanks, planes and atomic bombs.  
* I've attempted to show the environments with naval, open plains/steppes, and urban combat (admittedly, this is my weakest area as I don't show snow, jungle/tropical or desert for maximum variety).   
* I've tried to pick events that were directly a result or part of the war, not somewhat unrelated things that happened at the same time 
* I've tried to keep the balance relatively similar to the war itself
** Three images each from the European (two Soviet-German and one Western Allies-German) and Asian-Pacific theatres (two American-Japanese and one Second Sino-Japanese)
*** I admit it's not fully balanced, and not everything is covered, but I think that'd be near impossible
=====Comments=====
I request that any comments made aren't about how I've left some important event or aspect out; I readily acknowledge that I've left a very great deal out (and that it's impossible not to).   I also request that comments do not focus on putting any one theatre into more prominence, as with only six images, there's not much room to properly allocate the number of pictures with the significance of a theatre, even if any of us here were qualified to make such judgment.
Instead, I'd appreciate if a comment were to state which pictures should be replaced and the pictures to replace them with.  Please also include what the new pictures bring that the old pictures lack or exactly why the new pictures are better.  Remember, if you don't care for my montage selection at all, I encourage you to make your own. Oberiko 20:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oberiko's is good, but i think that one is better. It has Stalingrad and the Red Flag which are symbolic. I liked your explanation on puting Stalingrad. Also having both Pearl Harbor and the atomich bomb on Japan is to much. If we have Pearl Harbor why not inserting Soviet images from Barbarossa?? So i agree with you placing the Britons instead. Both yours and Oberiko's are good, but i personaly belive your proposal is better and "nicer for the eye". M.V.E.i. 15:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My concern is that there is no display of either the aerial or naval combat aspects, both of which were pretty important.  Instead, we have both Stalingrad and Berlin, which, aspect wise, are almost identical (large scale urban combat).  Oberiko 15:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Normandy shows the navy in action, and the atomic bomb shows bombing from the air. To show all the espects you mentioned we have the article itself. But, at least at my opinion, the picture should take more known photos, or more know names. It's a more symbolic/recognisable thing. M.V.E.i. 15:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. I really propose you to put a map or somthing in the template while we have the discussion here. There's no way we will agree on Danniels image to be here while the discussion goes on, or they on ours. And as i said, now the only to relevant proposals are your's and Miyokans, mine and Danniels are out of the game, so for now a map or something like that will be nice. M.V.E.i. 15:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here is what's best for now. Wait for about 7 seconds and the animation starts moving showing how the war goes. M.V.E.i. 15:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree with Oberiko here. If you don't like Oberiko's image of Kursk, how about this one? At this point, we have no images of the Germans, which, is highly POV. What, were the Allies fighting phantoms? That image takes care of two aspects; armored warfare, and the German side. Then, we can still have the image of the plane taking off for Pearl. MVEi, I can't help but think you're a bit biased here. Two images from the Pacific is too much? I've tried assuming good faith, but I can't help but think you're only here to push for the Soviet Union. Parsecboy 15:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If i would push the Soviet Union you would see Danniels picture but with the Red Flag being the big one. I could say the same about you pushing West. We have 2 images from Asia in Miyokans proposal, not one, so i dont see the proble. It's not the Kursk image, actually, i liked Oberiko's Kursk image and didn't likew what you offered, it's just that i think Stalingrad fits more. M.V.E.i. 16:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously you're a bit more subtle than that. Two images of America (or the Pacific in general) is unacceptable, but 3 of the Soviet Union is great. Miyokan was the one who didn't like the image of Kursk. In the grand scheme of things, Kursk was more important than Stalingrad. Parsecboy 16:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Both were importent, but Stalingrad was the point that showed the Nazis can be beaten, so i actually belive that Stalingrad fits more. 3 of the Soviet Union? We have Stalingrad and the Red Flag (or Kursk and the red flag), were do you see 3? America has Normandy and the Atomic Bomb, that's also two. Miyokan also proposed an image of Britons atacking, and a part drom the Sino-Japanis war. I personaly think it's an exelent offer. M.V.E.i. 16:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposals

message: Image	Description                                        	Historical significance                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          	Aspect of the war
     	Nanking massacre                                   	The Nanking massacre was the brutal occupation of the Chinese capital and is still considered one of the most iconic war crimes.  While taking place prior to the start of the European War, The judgments on the aggressors occurred during the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal after the end of the Second World War.	The aspect shown is atrocities against civilians in what would be now known as total war, something the Second World War uniquely exemplifies.  This is also a picture to somewhat represent the Chinese, and is one of the defining moments of the Second Sino-Japanese War.
     	Pearl Harbour                                      	Pearl Harbour was the catalyst for two critical events: uniting the Asian War with the European War, thus forming the World War, and bringing the United States (along with several other American countries) into the war as Allied combatants.                                                                 	The aspect shown is that of carrier based warfare, something which totally restructured naval warfare, replacing the centuries old thinking of centering naval forces around heavily armed and armoured battleships.  In addition it also shows a relatively typical military aircraft for the time period.
     	Battle of Kursk                                    	Kursk was the last major German offensive in the Soviet-German War and among the largest battles of all time; after Kursk the Soviets began one long, steady push into Germany.  Several historical sources list it as the turning point of the war itself.                                                      	The aspect shown is that of armoured warfare, something which came to maturity during the Second World War and proved to be the dominant terrain-based method of warfare outside of urban centers.
     	Battle of Normandy                                 	An iconic battle in Western culture, the landings at Normandy was the largest sea-borne invasion in history and began the liberation of conquered Europe.  It was one of the first large joint operations by the Anglo-American led Western Allies.                                                              	The aspect shown is sea-borne invasion, a prominent feature in the Western European Theatre (Torch, Sicily, Italy, Southern France, Normandy) and during the island-hopping campaign in the Asia-Pacific Theatre (Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal etc.).  It is also an image to represent the Western Allies battle with German forces.
     	The Battle of Berlin                               	The battle which captured the capital of Germany, prompting the surrender of the Third Reich and serving as the end of the European Theatre of the war                                                                                                                                                           	The aspect shown is that of urban warfare, again something which matured during the Second World War and was utilized in several of the most brutal battles during the conflict
     	The mushroom cloud from the atomic bombing of Japan	The first (and only) usage of atomic weapons during combat and the triggering event to end the war.                                                                                                                                                                                                              	The aspect shown is the use of weapons of mass destruction and the peak of military technology at the time, it also serves as an introduction to the almost immediately following Cold War.
=====Overview=====
I chose these images in order to try and balance historical events and the various aspects of the war.  
* I've tried to show the chronological progression of the war, from the initial Axis invasions (Nanking, Pearl Harbour), the tide turning (Kursk, Normandy) and then the end of the war (Berlin, Atomic Bombs)
* I've covered naval, aerial, infantry and armoured warfare, as well as strategic bombing.  
* I've tried to demonstrate the military equipment in use by showing carriers, tanks, planes and atomic bombs.  
* I've attempted to show the environments with naval, open plains/steppes, and urban combat (admittedly, this is my weakest area as I don't show snow, jungle/tropical or desert for maximum variety).   
* I've tried to pick events that were directly a result or part of the war, not somewhat unrelated things that happened at the same time 
* I've tried to keep the balance relatively similar to the war itself
** Three images each from the European (two Soviet-German and one Western Allies-German) and Asian-Pacific theatres (two American-Japanese and one Second Sino-Japanese)
*** I admit it's not fully balanced, and not everything is covered, but I think that'd be near impossible
=====Comments=====
I request that any comments made aren't about how I've left some important event or aspect out; I readily acknowledge that I've left a very great deal out (and that it's impossible not to).   I also request that comments do not focus on putting any one theatre into more prominence, as with only six images, there's not much room to properly allocate the number of pictures with the significance of a theatre, even if any of us here were qualified to make such judgment.
Instead, I'd appreciate if a comment were to state which pictures should be replaced and the pictures to replace them with.  Please also include what the new pictures bring that the old pictures lack or exactly why the new pictures are better.  Remember, if you don't care for my montage selection at all, I encourage you to make your own. Oberiko 20:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Oberiko

message: I request that any comments made aren't about how I've left some important event or aspect out; I readily acknowledge that I've left a very great deal out (and that it's impossible not to).   I also request that comments do not focus on putting any one theatre into more prominence, as with only six images, there's not much room to properly allocate the number of pictures with the significance of a theatre, even if any of us here were qualified to make such judgment.
Instead, I'd appreciate if a comment were to state which pictures should be replaced and the pictures to replace them with.  Please also include what the new pictures bring that the old pictures lack or exactly why the new pictures are better.  Remember, if you don't care for my montage selection at all, I encourage you to make your own. Oberiko 20:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: Image	Description                                        	Historical significance                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 	Aspect of the war
     	Nanking massacre                                   	The Nanking massacre was the brutal occupation of the Chinese capital and is still considered one of the most iconic war crimes.  While taking place prior to the start of the European War, The judgments on the aggressors occurred during the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal after the end of the Second World War.                                                       	The aspect shown is atrocities against civilians in what would be now known as total war, something the Second World War uniquely exemplifies.  This is also a picture to somewhat represent the Chinese, and is one of the defining moments of the Second Sino-Japanese War.
     	North African Campaign                             	British Crusader tank passes a burning German Pzkw Mk IV tank during Operation Crusader. Adding an African campaign image unites this montage into a world war.                                                                                                                                                                                                         	
     	Battle of Stalingrad                               	Stalingrad was the bloodiest battle in human history and the turning point in World War II. It was the first major defeat the Germans suffered, proving that they weren't invincible. Unprecedented for its ferocity and loss of life. An iconic image. The Battle of Kursk image that was here before was very poor, and there are no are no good images of that battle	
     	Battle of Normandy                                 	An iconic battle in Western culture, the landings at Normandy was the largest sea-borne invasion in history and began the liberation of conquered Europe.  It was one of the first large joint operations by the Anglo-American led Western Allies.                                                                                                                     	The aspect shown is sea-borne invasion, a prominent feature in the Western European Theatre (Torch, Sicily, Italy, Southern France, Normandy) and during the island-hopping campaign in the Asia-Pacific Theatre (Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal etc.).  It is also an image to represent the Western Allies battle with German forces.
     	The Battle of Berlin                               	An iconic image, symbolic of the fall of Nazi Germany, the beginning of the Cold War, and partition of Germany.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         	
     	The mushroom cloud from the atomic bombing of Japan	The first (and only) usage of atomic weapons during combat and the triggering event to end the war.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     	The aspect shown is the use of weapons of mass destruction and the peak of military technology at the time, it also serves as an introduction to the almost immediately following Cold War.
:Oberiko's is good, but i think that one is better. It has Stalingrad and the Red Flag which are symbolic. I liked your explanation on puting Stalingrad. Also having both Pearl Harbor and the atomich bomb on Japan is to much. If we have Pearl Harbor why not inserting Soviet images from Barbarossa?? So i agree with you placing the Britons instead. Both yours and Oberiko's are good, but i personaly belive your proposal is better and "nicer for the eye". M.V.E.i. 15:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My concern is that there is no display of either the aerial or naval combat aspects, both of which were pretty important.  Instead, we have both Stalingrad and Berlin, which, aspect wise, are almost identical (large scale urban combat).  Oberiko 15:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Normandy shows the navy in action, and the atomic bomb shows bombing from the air. To show all the espects you mentioned we have the article itself. But, at least at my opinion, the picture should take more known photos, or more know names. It's a more symbolic/recognisable thing. M.V.E.i. 15:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. I really propose you to put a map or somthing in the template while we have the discussion here. There's no way we will agree on Danniels image to be here while the discussion goes on, or they on ours. And as i said, now the only to relevant proposals are your's and Miyokans, mine and Danniels are out of the game, so for now a map or something like that will be nice. M.V.E.i. 15:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here is what's best for now. Wait for about 7 seconds and the animation starts moving showing how the war goes. M.V.E.i. 15:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Oberiko here. If you don't like Oberiko's image of Kursk, how about this one? At this point, we have no images of the Germans, which, is highly POV. What, were the Allies fighting phantoms? That image takes care of two aspects; armored warfare, and the German side. Then, we can still have the image of the plane taking off for Pearl. MVEi, I can't help but think you're a bit biased here. Two images from the Pacific is too much? I've tried assuming good faith, but I can't help but think you're only here to push for the Soviet Union. Parsecboy 15:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If i would push the Soviet Union you would see Danniels picture but with the Red Flag being the big one. I could say the same about you pushing West. We have 2 images from Asia in Miyokans proposal, not one, so i dont see the proble. It's not the Kursk image, actually, i liked Oberiko's Kursk image and didn't likew what you offered, it's just that i think Stalingrad fits more. M.V.E.i. 16:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously you're a bit more subtle than that. Two images of America (or the Pacific in general) is unacceptable, but 3 of the Soviet Union is great. Miyokan was the one who didn't like the image of Kursk. In the grand scheme of things, Kursk was more important than Stalingrad. Parsecboy 16:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Both were importent, but Stalingrad was the point that showed the Nazis can be beaten, so i actually belive that Stalingrad fits more. 3 of the Soviet Union? We have Stalingrad and the Red Flag (or Kursk and the red flag), were do you see 3? America has Normandy and the Atomic Bomb, that's also two. Miyokan also proposed an image of Britons atacking, and a part drom the Sino-Japanis war. I personaly think it's an exelent offer. M.V.E.i. 16:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Miyokan

message: I doubt there's any single or small set of suitably iconic images that could be agreed upon for this infobox – and clearly the more added, the more cluttered it looks. Since this is about a world war, perhaps what we should use is a global map shaded to show the countries involved. That would, at a single glance, underscore its being a world-wide experience. Askari Mark (Talk) 16:00, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The idea is really nice. BUT, it will be to big, and i dont think many will support it. M.V.E.i. 16:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't have to be "too big"; it's "just" an infobox illustration. People can click on the image to see something larger (or, if editors want, at a larger size in the main article). You may be right that many will not support it, but I haven't seen much agreement on what the image should be ... other than a growing gallery of images intended for little more than to avoid a hint of NPOV. That's why I made the suggestion. It's not POV, simple, and can convey substance even though small. Simple color shading would suffice and it need not differentiate between combatants or allegiances. Note that I'm not recommending something like a detailed global map showing all the ebb and flow of conquered territories and shifting battle fronts over time, just a shaded highlight of the participants in a global event. To my mind, the iconic images and more detailed maps belong in the body of an article. Askari Mark (Talk) 16:48, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, actually the idea is not so bad and i think it could be used in World War 1 to. M.V.E.i. 07:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We could try something akin to that used for the European Theatre of WWII (an animated image showing shifting alliances), or, we could potentially have no image at all. Oberiko 11:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here is what's best for now. Wait for about 7 seconds and the animation starts moving showing how the war goes. M.V.E.i. 15:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is totally unacceptable. It only shows the European Theater. What about Africa? All of Asia and the Pacific? No, this will not do at all. Parsecboy 15:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a temporarry image it's the best we have. I didnt find one showing the whole world. M.V.E.i. 16:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You didn't look very hard, apparently. Parsecboy 16:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WOWW exelent, i really didnt see it. Mind if i put it in the template? M.V.E.i. 16:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine by me. It's not already in the article, so you don't have to worry about that. Parsecboy 16:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maaannn that looks amaizing. Nice work in finding it! M.V.E.i. 16:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Except looking good in the template it also looks good in the article. M.V.E.i. 16:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Inherently NPOV and factually accurate, you have my support. Oberiko 16:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So what do you say? Keep this one? M.V.E.i. 16:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dont think we could find a more NPOV and peacful solution then this one. M.V.E.i. 16:34, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

text: You were the one to offer it in the first place, but it was mistakenly ignored. Nice idea! M.V.E.i. 16:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The animated world map is really good, great work. In my opinion, however, I do not think it is as exciting as a montage, but I guess we can't find any solution which is more NPOV than a map. For this reason, and as a compromise, I support it. My regards, --Dna-Dennis talk - contribs 14:57, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A different alternative

message: It was decided that a map will be here, it was the big concensus. If not a map, then the 6-photos image. NO WAY THAT THE IMAGE WITH THE BIG NORMANDY PHOTO WILL BE HERE, a majority already said it's ethnocentric. M.V.E.i. 17:41, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems that someone has reading problems so i will repeat it here for one more time. Please take your time and read it until you understand the point. Map has mistakes and will stay out from infobox until mistakes are fixed! I have already pointed out all mistakes here twice. Thank you.--Staberinde 18:40, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah so you returned the collage that coused the whole conflict. Very smart. Couldn't you see Oberiko suggested another image for that case?? You could at least talk to Oberiko on that. M.V.E.i. 18:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You smart one, next time actualy check if animation is allright before adding it to such place like WW II article infobox, most mistakes have been pointed out at animation talk page for about year. That if normandy photo is big or not is matter of taste, irrelevant for me, i picked first collage which i found on article history. And I havent edited infobox since removing the animation so everyone have been free to replace it if they have better one.--Staberinde 19:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok i see you really dont understand the case, so i owe you an appology and an explanation. This metter of taste, brought to a conflict about the images NPOV. People were blocked, it was areally big and brutal argumant. A huge discussion, whole history pages of reverts. The compromise was a map. If you would remove any image, it would be understood. There were two parties who weren't going to find a compromise, and the powers were equal by number. I started the first party claiming for replacement of the image you returned, and a second party  defending the old one led by Dna-Dennis. And there was Oberiko who tryed to offer to form an image together, but the discussion wasn't going to well so it didn't help. Then someone proposed to insert a map insted (can it get more NPOV then that?).  99% of the first and the second parties (including me, Dna-Dennis and Oberiko) joined that third party. And since then the concensus was kept. What you did could have started a second war over the image, thats why i so brutaly came against it. Now i see that you just haven't known the story so sorry. M.V.E.i. 13:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just jumping in that I wouldn't worry about the map so much.  We're working on a new summarized article structure (much shorter, much fewer pictures etc.) so we're going to have to do the whole infobox montage thing again anyway since we're not going to want to duplicate pictures in the infobox and article. Oberiko 15:11, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: '''It seems someone has bad understanding, or brobably bad knowledge of English, so i'll try to make it clear'''