Talk:Arthur Rimbaud

message: I just read this article in Slate Magazine, which touches on his life in Harar and death:
http://www.slate.com/id/2277531/
The writer states that his cause of death was gangrene, not cancer.  Quick googling reveals agreement with this diagnosis.  To me, this stands to reason -- who gets cancer on a leg?  Skin cancer certainly happens, but that's normally on the forehead, neck, or shoulders due to over-exposure to sunlight.  Plus in that day and age, men wore long pants all the time.  
Somebody might want to check into this, but I don't have a dog in the fight, so I'm "just saying" as it were.  IvyGold (talk) 06:35, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Bone cancer can affect a leg or arm.  One of Senator Edward Kennedy's sons lost a leg to the diesase. 13.13.137.1 (talk) 22:38, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

text: Indeed. Bone cancer apparently. Just before he died, he had a huge new tumour growing on his right (?) hip. Robb is the man for this.  Roger Davies talk 16:07, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death 

message: Hey, under Influenced there are glaring omissions, in fact it is funny for me to see that Patti Smith and Jim Morrison and Dylan Thomas are mentioned, but the ones that really should be mentioned because they are his direct descendants in French literature are not mentioned: the Surrealists Paul Eluard (later he shed surrealism and continued as a different kind of poet), Andre Breton, etc. Also artists/painters such as Max Ernst, who explicitly quoted Rimbaud and cited him as an influence, should also be mentioned. I would do it myself but the article seems to be semi-protected. 76.208.171.69 (talk) 06:10, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you give some sources for this? Rumiton (talk) 10:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Influenced

message: The phrase "(a despised and shunned minority generally found in southwestern France and northern Spain)" is inappropriate. Whatever the origin of the term in mediaeval south-west France, the proper context here is the 19th Century Ardennes, in the north-east of the country. Today the word is mostly just a scatological term of abuse. Flaubert and Moliere used the word to designate the prissily or ostentatiously pious; we might say a prig.  VEBott (talk) 10:31, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that. Makes much better sense. I've made the change. Rumiton (talk) 10:39, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sale petit cagot 

message: There is disagreement between the main body of the text (which states that Rimbaud was 11 at the time of his first communion) and the subtitle to one of the photographs (which states that he was 12 at the time of his first communion.)  I do not know which is correct.
Foxi tails (talk) 07:29, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Eleven or twelve cannot be the date of his First Holy Communion, as any Catholic would know because the Church has long held age 7 to be the onset of the use of reason, the ability to tell right from wrong, and therefore the appropriate age of First Confession and Holy Communion. On the other hand, the end of primary school and the beginning of adolescence is usually when a child has Confirmation. These are two distinct sacraments in the Catholic Church.OrodesIII (talk) 06:48, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: "Long held" has been since 1910. That's when the Pope issued Quam singulari, declaring 7 an appropriate age for First Communion, where many had previously held that the communion recipient must already have received suitable indoctrination to be eligible. Rimbaud was born in 1854. Largoplazo (talk) 07:48, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Confirmation Date

message: I'm sure this is generalizing a bunch of people. From what I remember last time I tried to help this website, you guys fling menial shit 24/7 so I'm not even going to touch the edit button. You do it.
"despite his intellectual and individualistic nature, he was an ardent Catholic like his mother." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.59.112.188  (talk • contribs) 06:05, 11 April 2013‎
:I'm not even going to touch the edit button either. I'm too busy flinging menial shit. - SummerPhD (talk) 18:10, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I understand what was intended, and it wasn't quite as you took it. Nonetheless, the wording was unfortunate and I have changed it. Rivertorch (talk) 19:05, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assuming that the reader expects Catholicism and intellect to be mutually exclusive 

message: In the light of modern psychological understanding, (Stockholm Syndrome?), the statement that this poem should not be taken as describing a rape by the communards because of his later support for them seems prissy and disingenuous. Apart from that, there is really no other sensible way that poem can be interpreted. Can we talk about changing that? Rumiton (talk) 11:53, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:V and WP:OR. Toccata quarta (talk) 12:20, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I support Toccata on this. We'd need solid secondary sources to back the idea. I don't know the poem or the crit on it, but I would underline that poems and their sentiments operate in the fictional-imaginative world, even seemingly autobiographical ones. Poems (and novels) should not be used as supposed sources for events or sentiments in the actual world. Nor should we give any shift to hack biographers who indulge in such lazy suppositions. Span (talk) 13:21, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I accept and agree that poets do not necessarily intend their works to be taken literally, but I still feel we can do better than what we currently have, without straying into V or OR territory. What does the source say about this subject? Rumiton (talk) 13:45, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Imaginative worlds, certainly. Fictional-imaginative worlds, not necessarily. It depends on the poet and the poem, but poetry is generally not regarded to be fiction. Rivertorch (talk) 16:48, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I mean 'fictional' in the sense of 'not literal' - re-invented worlds, people and events. Span (talk) 17:52, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. It's just that poetry sometimes gets mischaracterized as fiction, and I thought it was as well to clarify. I do get your meaning, and in general I agree with your premise. Rivertorch (talk) 18:36, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The point I am trying to make is that much of what we accept about Rimbaud's life-his joining the Paris commune, his same-sex relationship with Verlaine-seems to be gleaned from his poetry. On what basis (apart from the contradiction apparently posed by his support for the Communards) does the source reject the factuality of the experience he writes about in this poem? Rumiton (talk) 20:11, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume biographer Charles Nicholl is an acceptable source? In a review of his book Somebody Else - Arthur Rimbaud in Africa here the reviewer says “the evidence [for his having been raped by soldiers] is indirect, but - as Charles Nicholl says, and most biographers agree with him - it is persuasive.” Rumiton (talk) 14:57, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

text: I think the current "unlikely" wording could do with a bit of balancing. It might be a good idea for the article to note that various biographers disagree. Rivertorch (talk) 19:34, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It does seem to be a sensitive issue, in my view a pivotal one. I will try to do it justice. Rumiton (talk) 08:28, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I tried. If my wording is accepted, could someone please add the ref to the Secondary Sources list? Thanks. Rumiton (talk) 09:36, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

text: OK, I understand there is some disagreement, but is it fair to label taking something literally that was written by the subject and seems highly personal, and is very explicit, "speculation"? Would it not be fairer to consider that Robb's interpretation of it as an "allegory for the death of Romanticism" might be speculative? Rumiton (talk) 14:53, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a poem not a letter and it's not explicit at all. Rimbaud wrote about a drunken boat without seeing one, and about the sea without seeing it. Why should he not be able to write this poem out of his (vivid) imagination?  Roger Davies talk 15:16, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Using an imaginative work, especially a poem, as basis for biographical detail is shaky ground at best. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 16:04, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be if Wikipedia editors were doing it, but Nicholl is a very rigorous researcher, with a wealth of sources, not just one poem. Still this poem is key, and I must disagree that it is not explicit. It has been rather bowdlerised in translation (this is original research, of course) but "Mon triste coeur bave à la poupe," is anatomical, not allegorical. This is a precise and sickening description of the aftermath of homosexual gang rape. Incidentally, after just checking Amazon "Look Inside" I must disagree that Nicholl is ambivalent on this subject. He judges the totality of evidence for the rape "persuasive", then goes on to compare the younger, light-hearted Rimbaud with the suddenly jaded cynic, then asks whether he had been "altered in some way. And was the rough trade of the Babylone barracks the cause of the alteration?" He seems to accept the fact of the rape, and questions only whether Rimbaud was permanently changed by it. Rumiton (talk) 16:18, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh, I assume you're aware that coeur means "heart". Unless you know something about "homosexual gang rape" that I don't, the phrase is indeed allegorical. (Hard for it to be any other kind of gang rape, given the gender of troops in the day.) Rivertorch (talk) 17:00, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

text:  It was rumoured that he briefly joined the Paris Commune of 1871, which he portrayed in his poem L'orgie parisienne (ou : Paris se repeuple), ("The Parisian Orgy" or "Paris Repopulates"). In his poem, Le cœur volé ("The Stolen Heart"), http://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Le_C%C5%93ur_vol%C3%A9/%C3%89dition_Vanier_1895 Rimbaud describes being mockingly raped by drunken Communard soldiers. Most biographers consider this event to have actually taken place, despite his continuing support for the Communards afterwards."Somebody Else - Arthur Rimbaud in Africa" by Charles Nicholl, Jonathan Cape, London, 1997.  
It's contradictory and needs discussion.  Roger Davies talk 18:46, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems to me, most of the paragraph you removed had been stable for at least 5 years, and the short addition I made was reflective of sources (see above). I also cannot see it as contradictory, but let's continue. What would you like to discuss? Rumiton (talk) 12:54, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Le cœur volé

message: Still looking forward to discussing the above, but in the meantime the legal situation at the time of Verlain's arrest is interesting. According to Merrick and Ragan's "Homosexuality in Modern France", homosexuality had been decriminalised in France since 1791, and in 1863 the Penal Code was amended to set the age of consent for both sexes at 13. So it seems their relationship, while no doubt considered scandalous, was not illegal. The sentence he got must have been from the shooting only. Comments? Rumiton (talk) 10:36, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Brussels is in Belgium.  Roger Davies talk 10:48, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Belgium? Sorry I don't understand. Rumiton (talk) 11:00, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

text: OK, now I do. Sorry. They were French citizens but he was sentenced under Belgian law. I will look further. Thanks for the advice. Rumiton (talk) 11:06, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: As it turns out, it didn't make any difference. According to the Law of Belgium, the Napoleonic Code was adopted by many countries that were occupied by the French during the Napoleonic Wars, including Belgium. And according to Encyclopedia Britannica (a tertiary source, but no doubt secondaries exist),  his two-year sentence at Mons was for wounding Rimbaud with a revolver during an emotional storm in Brussels. It seems to me we should remove any suggestion that he was jailed for sexual offenses. Rumiton (talk) 15:22, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: In the introduction to "Paul Verlaine, Selected Poems", Oxford University Press, the translator and author Martin Sorrell confirms that the sentence was for the shooting of Rimbaud. Rumiton (talk) 15:34, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Has that ever been in dispute? To put it beyond doubt, I've added "for the shooting" to the last line of that paragraph.  Roger Davies talk 15:41, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it was unclear; "interrogated about his correspondence with Rimbaud and the nature of their relationship" definitely suggested that pederasty played a part, at least. Perhaps it should be made even clearer that their relationship was not illegal in Belgium and France at that time. Rumiton (talk) 01:57, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

text: Hhmm, OK, that's interesting too. If rel sources tell us that there appears to have been some judicial prejudice, maybe that should be clarified. The source I quoted above, Merrick, implies that the sexuality laws came ahead of the minds of the people, including the judges. It is definitely an intriguing aspect of the subject. Rumiton (talk) 05:18, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: What is missing, and what I intend adding, is that PV was originally charged with attempted murder along with but it was dropped in favour of the "wounding with a firearm" and "aggravated wounding with a firearm". Also, Mathilde Verlaine's motive in contacting the judge seems to have been mostly to have stuff to use in her divorce fight (and custody battle). I'm not sure how much of this needs to go into the article because there's a huge amount of mainstream stuff that is simply not covered at all at the moment and I'd rather flesh out the basics than bloat with peripheral detail.  Roger Davies talk 07:54, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. But the subject matter here, the life and work of a famous poet, makes us want to know as much as we can about his frame of mind, and how he stood in relation to the society around him. I think Mathilde's hostility is a given and needs no elaboration, but the attitudes of the court, particularly the tension between the laws and the mores of society, is relevant and interesting. I'll think about it some more, then make a suggestion here. Rumiton (talk) 09:37, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  I didn't think it's particularly relevant and, more to the point, we're probably veering off into original research. The attitudes of one investigating magistrate are not necessarily reflective of the society as a whole. Certainly, the conclusions from the medical examination were ridiculous but they did reflect prevailing medical opinions of the period. And, in any case, it is difficult to lay a charge of homophobia at t'Serstephens' door, especially when no source I've come across (not even Ivry, who seems to think he got off lightly) does so. Lefrère hints that t'Serstephens was annoyed with Verlaine and Rimbaud for treating him as a naïf; in the light of that, the medical examination may simply have been pay back or a flexing of judicial muscle.  Roger Davies talk 12:26, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The line between intelligent editing and original research can be a thin one (or broad and fuzzy, depending on how one sees one's metaphores.) I need now to take a couple of days off Wiki. Cheers. Rumiton (talk) 14:36, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Age of Consent

message: I've been bold and pruned the following paragraph from the "Family and childhood (1854–1861)". It basically alludes to episodes in the precocious infancies of two fictional characters, Pantagruel and Merlin. Without detailed explanations, it doesn't make much sense as it currently stands and the explanations will probably take up much more space to explain than they're worth.
Even as a baby, Arthur Rimbaud was considered precocious; it was said that soon after his birth he rolled onto the floor from a cushion where his nurse had put him, and began crawling toward the door. In a more realistic retelling of his childhood, Mme Rimbaud recalled that once, after putting her second son in the care of a nurse and supplying clean linen and a cradle for him, she returned to find the nurse's child sitting in the crib wearing the clothes meant for Arthur. Meanwhile, the dirty and naked child that was her own was happily playing in an old salt chest.
It may well have a place in a future "influences" section.  Roger Davies talk 07:16, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the article suffers from its absense. Rumiton (talk) 07:36, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prunage 

message: Théodore t'Serstevens seems to be the more common spelling, though there are other variations as well. Rumiton (talk) 15:06, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, that's a typo on my part. Roger Davies talk 19:54, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Name of judge?

message: A couple of editors reverted my change without discussion, but maybe I should have invited comments here first. The original words of Rimbaud are "C'est alors que j'ai prié un agent de police de l'arrêter." "Prié", since about 1900, has correctly been translated as "asked". The older form, "begged" remains only in specific, sometimes rather outdated expressions like "I beg your pardon" or "I beg to differ". To use it when all is meant is "ask" is, in 2013, plainly wrong. No doubt this is exactly what the translator wrote, but I think there is a way out. We can, in fact should, paraphrase his/her writing. My suggestion is to replace ...Verlaine "behaved as if he were insane", causing Rimbaud to "fear that he might give himself over to new excesses [...] It was then I begged a police officer to arrest him." with something like ...Verlaine "behaved as if he were insane", causing Rimbaud to "fear that he might give himself over to new excesses." Rimbaud asked a policeman to arrest him. Rumiton (talk) 13:14, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll go ahead and make the change. Rumiton (talk) 09:59, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: ...begged a police officer/asked a police officer

message: I've just run through the article quickly, performing a few trivial edits. I must say, this culturally important piece has capable editors on the job—well done. My knowledge of this area is distinctly rusty, but could I ask a few questions, particularly concerning one of the more colourful instances in his life, which I hope doesn't introduce undue detail given the summary style and the length of the article.
*The singular "charge"—is this correct? Does anyone have reliable sources? (It's plural earlier in the paragraph: "He did not immediately file charges, ...".) 
*I see a debate about "begged" versus "asked" above. I'd have thought "begged" were more consistent with the context, even as described in few words here. The translation is reffed, so what does the translator use? Do you just go up to a police officer and "ask" for seomeone to be arrested (as though over a cup of tea)? 
*Nowadays I'd have thought less of a song and dance about homosexuality would be in order, given the need to avoid POV. A pet peeve of mine is the linking of that item (makes me feel like some exotic creature, and it's a glaring asymmetry that "straight" is rarely linked. The grammar of "Verlaine had probably engaged in prior homosexual experiences" is a little prurient. There's a logic problem too: "homosexual experiences" is contrasted with "relationship"—these are two different things. After tinkering with this cluster of explicitly uncertain claims, I simply got rid of the whole statement. It's too woolly, in my view.
*I didn't remove it, but I wonder why "in the Kingdom of Württemberg" is relevant in the scheme of things. Stuttgart is better known.
Please let me know if I've mangled anything. Tony (talk)  14:05, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Rumiton, thanks. But do you have reliable sources for the singular–plural "charges" issue?Prié: I believe Harding and Sturrock are at the top of their profession as translators—I'd be very surprised if they got it wrong. Do you have another reliable source that contradicts their choice? (ref 52)At the time, I'm pretty sure it was asking for trouble in the judicial system to differ at all from perceived "norms". Why is the age of consent relevant?Above all, can we all put our cards on the table as far which reliable sources we're using? Cheers. Tony (talk)  06:09, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sources seem to agree: "Despite Rimbaud's refusal to press charges, Verlaine was sentenced to two years' hard labour for criminal assault." Charles Nicholl, reviewing Rimbaud: The Double Life of a Rebel by Edmund White."Verlaine was being held on a charge of attempted murder." Delirium: An Interpretation of Arthur Rimbaud by Jeremy Reed.After Rimbaud withdrew his complaint: “The charge against him was ‘assault leading to temporary incapacity of the victim.’” Paul Verlaine by Harold Nicolson, p9It seems to me that today most people would assume Verlaine was at least partly jailed for sexual crimes, and the mentioning of the medico-legal examination finding evidence of pederasty strengthens this impression. I think the legal background and the nature of the charge should be made clear.Regarding prié, “begged” is certainly a paraphrasing option, but in context, and in 2013, is it the best one? As I said, Rimbaud is standing in front of a policeman, a fresh, untreated wound in his wrist, in fear of Verlaine’s state of mind; there is no begging involved, not in the modern sense. OTOH, this is Rimbaud really begging: O come back, every hour I’m crying again. Tell me to meet you, I will come, tell it to me, send me a telegram, I must leave on Monday evening, where are you going? What do you want to do? (Letter to Verlaine, 4 July 1873.) Rumiton (talk) 15:33, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Charges: Verlaine was arrested for attempted murder, had a charge of wounding with a firearm added, and was ultimately convicted of wounding with a firearm AND inflicting grave injuries on the person of Rimbaud resulting in an incapacity to work under articles 398 & 399 Belgian Penal Code (Bousmanne 2006, pp 1167-118; Lefrère 2001, pp 633-635). So, charges it is.Prié: First, Rimbaud's wound has been treated at the St Jean hospital that afternoon. Next, According to the police statement, Rimbaud was frightened and "took refuge" (se réfugier) besides a policeman, Auguste Michel, where he "begged for help" (réclamé le secours). In the circumstances, "asked" is a risible understatement. Prier is a broad spectrum verb and your insistance that two professional translators (Sturrock and Harding) have mistranslated it is bewildering.  Roger Davies talk 16:52, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This looks good to me, Roger Davies. Tony (talk)  17:00, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Ditto Roger D. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 22:13, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments 

message: I recall reading that when interviewed during his Africa period, Rimbaud said something like: I only made two mistakes in my life. One was writing poetry and the other was looking for love. Does anyone have the exact quote? I think it would make a great ending for the article. Rumiton (talk) 23:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No one? I guess it must be apocryphal. Rumiton (talk) 00:15, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Question re quote

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: * In 1991 (year of celebration of the death of the poet), the ARThur software (developed on the Amiga platform by Claude Douay & Michel Fages © Rimage Ed.)AmigaNews 032 (1991-01-02) the site made possible to better perceive the relevance of visionary poem Voyelles using such "a routine" (an algorithm)  on individual computer. The user had only to enter text in ASCII (.txt whatever), or simply type a word on the keyboard (some name, motto, a poem, an invoice ...) to quickly obtain a colors pallet, incremented by the presence of vowels iterated for the occasion, and commissioning works in abstract graphics (from fractal mode) with a genesis immediately noticeable on the screen. This was the first graphical-office-equipment ("certified rigorously useless").
Mnudelman (talk) 21:09, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Cyber-applications

message: "He was mostly creative in his teens (17–20)."—But didn't indulge much in non-creative activities during this time? Tony (talk)  02:26, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ambiguity 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The use of a semicolon in the sentence “She came from a ‘solidly established Ardennais family’,[15] but one with its share of bohemians; two of her brothers were alcoholics.[15]”suggest that either being from an established Ardennais family or being bohemian is *strongly* associated with alcoholism. This seems both unsupported and prejudiced. Am I missing something here? Not a frequent Wikipedia editor, so not sure how much discussion is necessary before removing seemingly prejudiced language. Thanks for any info you can give. 2601:154:C080:40D0:D9F8:CC25:961C:14F8 (talk) 16:44, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bohemian ≈ Alcoholic??? Semicolon use. 

message: Arthur Rimbaud features in the article | List of occultists, with the entry as follows; 
"Arthur Rimbaud (1854–1891), visionary poet, adventurer"
Anomalously, no mention of occultism is made in the main article, Arthur Rimbaud. On further examination, I have turned up the following source, the veracity of which is yet to be verified.
Wilde, Dana. (1995). “Arthur Rimbaud and the Mystic Way”. Cauda Pavonis: Studies in Hermeticism. 14. 1.
| Discussion included for reference   Atomic putty? Rien!  19:11, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Occultism