Wikipedia talk:Sockpuppetry/Archive 1

message: === the problem ===
There has been steady escalation in the abuse of sock puppets over the last six months.  Examples include:
# Banned user User:Michael's continuing creation of multiple socks for the purposes of vandalism.
# Banned user User:Wik's bot-assisted creation of tens or possibly hundreds of socks for vandalism.
# Creation of about a dozen socks by banned user User:24
# User:Lir's presumed creation of about 15 socks.
# User:Wik and User:Cantus creating several socks in pursuit of a revert war.
# Creation of User:I am sexy by an unknown Wikipedian.
#* Was this a sock? I know there was another account involved in this that was a sock, but I wasn't aware of speculation that "I am sexy" was a sock...
# Creation of User:Jesus is Lord! by an unknown Wikipedian.
# Telgur the Trollslayer
The first two cases are similar.  New accounts are created by banned users, utilized for between one and ten acts of vandalism, and abandoned.  The user names of the new accounts are chosen so as to mock other users or Wikipedia in general.  We could call these "vandal socks."
The remaining involve deliberate attempts to confuse the community, by making attribution for edits and revert wars unclear.  We could call these "contributor socks."
The problem with vandal socks is threefold.  First, they make blocking difficult because logged-in users' IP addresses are not readily accessible.  Since vandal socks are abandoned shortly after their creation, there is no opportunity for the autoblocker to work.  Second, they permit page move vandalism, which is difficult to revert.  Third, they pollute the history summaries with an incitative user name.
Page moves from non-administrators are now disabled because of vandal socks.  This loss is likely to become permanent unless another solution is found.  A considerable amount of extra effort by administrators and developers is expended to counter ongoing vandalism from such accounts because of the impracticality of timely IP blocks.
Contributor socks create different problems.  They lead to discussions, speculation, and research to ascertain actual authorship.  Since it is rarely clear who is behind any given contributor sock except in hindsight, conflict among Wikipedians ensues.  Perhaps most importantly, they lead to a climate of mistrust towards new users.  Anyone who has made a genuine effort to make a new contributor welcome, and then later finds out the "new contributor" was a sock, feels like a chump and is unlikely to continue welcoming people.  Finally, use of contributor socks make it easy to elude bans.
=== responses already in place ===
Community-based responses are already in place.  These include the Wikipedia:Welcoming committee, and scrutiny on Recent Changes.  Also, many users watch pages that are known to be favorites of repeat users of vandal socks.
=== possible solutions ===
Most answers to these problems beyond those listed above will require changes to both policy and software, and should be done with careful discussion, and with counsel from the developers.
The only social mechanism that comes to mind is a socially-enforced requirement for all users to list some basic identifying information on their user page, such as their city of residence.
Possible components of a software solution include:
# Identification of new users and their edits.
## An automated new user log.
## Flagging edits on watchlists and recent changes that are made by newer users, say, the first 50 edits or so (Similar to sunglasses on eBay).
## Automated means of identifying the IP address used to create a new user.  This could be deleted after, say, 10 days or after a certain number of edits to mitigate privacy concerns.  Several other mitigation strategies come to mind as well.
# Limits on actions until some well-defined milestone is reached (certain number of days or edits).
## Prohibit page moves 
## Prohibit edits to other users' user: pages (usually vandalism)
# Limits on account creation
## Cap the rate of account creation for any given IP address (to limit the rate of vandalism).
## Require confirmation of a valid email address.
## Require sponsorship by an existing user.
## Ask for a small donation.  Allow users who do not wish to donate to create an account after following a more lengthy process.
UninvitedCompany 03:50, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dealing with abuse 

message: Most answers to these problems beyond those listed above will require changes to both policy and software, and should be done with careful discussion, and with counsel from the developers.
The only social mechanism that comes to mind is a socially-enforced requirement for all users to list some basic identifying information on their user page, such as their city of residence.
Possible components of a software solution include:
# Identification of new users and their edits.
## An automated new user log.
## Flagging edits on watchlists and recent changes that are made by newer users, say, the first 50 edits or so (Similar to sunglasses on eBay).
## Automated means of identifying the IP address used to create a new user.  This could be deleted after, say, 10 days or after a certain number of edits to mitigate privacy concerns.  Several other mitigation strategies come to mind as well.
# Limits on actions until some well-defined milestone is reached (certain number of days or edits).
## Prohibit page moves 
## Prohibit edits to other users' user: pages (usually vandalism)
# Limits on account creation
## Cap the rate of account creation for any given IP address (to limit the rate of vandalism).
## Require confirmation of a valid email address.
## Require sponsorship by an existing user.
## Ask for a small donation.  Allow users who do not wish to donate to create an account after following a more lengthy process.
UninvitedCompany 03:50, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  possible solutions 

message: This page seems to imply it's okay to accuse a new user of being a sock puppet just because they participate in a vote. If this is true, then there should be a warning on one of the new user introduction pages, saying that they are discouraged from voting. Or there should be a formal rule, saying that you need to make some number of edits or wait some number of days before you can vote.
Though those may seem discriminatory of new users, I'd say either one is much better than what we have now, where new users get excited about the inclusive nature of Wikipedia, participate in a vote, and get flamed into the ground. At that point, you've probably lost a user, and they will probably tell other people that Wikipedia is elitist.
Rob Speer 18:27, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)
:User:MyRedDice once compared the situation to that of new users being used as "human shields" by troublemakers.  The climate of mistrust towards new users is one of the most compelling reasons to discourage the misuse of sock puppets by troublemakers.  UninvitedCompany 18:32, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of us have been discussing creation of a new page, possibly Wikipedia:Run-in voters, to spell out that we don't necessarily believe that a new user is a sockpuppet solely because they only showed up after a vote began...  but that from a practical perspective, they get treated much the same, because the VfD process tries to determine a consensus based on the judgements of experienced Wikipedians, and even if well-intentioned, a new user who shows up just because they heard a vote was going on (and were perhaps falsely told "You get a full vote just for showing up!") is not bringing that experience to the table. -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:33, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should legitimate new users vote? 

message: Knowing full well that I am probably going to suggest something that has been suggested and debated a million times before, but not knowing at least where to look for such a debate, I would like to propose that anonymous users and registered users with fewer than 50 edits be blocked from editing such pages as VfD, CfD, and VfU.  These discussions get senselessly bogged down by the flocks and armies of sockpuppets (though it is at times amusing), and often after a flurry of them has passed through, a legitimate new user may get "sockpuppet!" yelled at him simply because we can't tell the difference.  Having a per se block on those articles would prevent the easy proliferation of sockpuppets, and guarantee that anyone who contributes to the more esoteric debates on wikipedia about keeping articles and categories will have actually been here for a little while.  We tend to think that no one will wander to VfD unless they are somewhat familiar with wikipedia, but this would help guarantee that.
a) what does everyone think?  and b) is there somewhere that I can see a preexisting discussion of this kind of proposal?  I know I've seen similar suggestions arise in VfD comments from time to time...  Oh, and c) how would we make something like this official policy and have it built into the system?  Is it something that can be done?  I initially thought we could do it by namespace, but then I realized that there are pages just for newbies set up within the wikipedia namespace (like the sandbox...duh).  Postdlf 07:52, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't work. The kind of user who creates borderline articles that need to be discussed on XfD are generally new users. How can they defend themselves if you make it impossible to do so at a technical level? (And new users DO end up at VfD, as someone will have just slapped a link to it on the crappy new article. Anyhow, sock puppets can generally be spotted a mile off, and their votes weighted accordingly. Pcb21| Pete 08:30, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: A modification could work. Specially mark anonymous users and registered users with fewer than 50 edits on VfD, Cfd, and VfU. Such marking could be most easily done universally as part of the normal tilde-tilde-tilde-tilde display with some rather neutral phrase such as "Under 50 edits" or "Anon" for anonymous. Votes from "Under 50 edits" and "Anons" would simply not count on those queues and possibly in other circumstances (though those editors could still discuss). But making newness and anonymity very obvious along with such votes not being counted would make this kind of disruption less likely to occur. Jallan 14:36, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  Full transparency is the answer, just as it may also be to campaign finance.  While I still support limiting the degree of edits from anonymous users, I think the prescribed limitation by Postdif goes too far. -- Stevietheman 18:25, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: Shades. Display them with a little sunglass icon, like eBay. eBay users who have been registered for less than a month have their usernames displayed with "shades" (a little pair of sun glasses) warning you that their identity might be shady. They don't tell you in so many words what they're warning you about, but what they're warning you about is that a new user might be a reincarnation of someone who's been kicked off for abuse (NARU-ed, in eBay-speak). It's very analogous to sockpuppets here. Don't restrict what new users can do, but I see no harm in making their status evident at a glance. Dpbsmith 16:38, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone wanna make an icon of a dirty sock? 8-P --ssd 04:44, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Could even be a happy sprinkling "new" star -- looks nice to the true newbie, and annoying to the sock puppet. -- till we ☼☽ | Talk 16:30, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: I like the idea of tagging them as newbies—that would avoid the problems with blocking them while allowing us to identify who to disregard easily.  Postdlf 04:51, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Sock puppets

message: The text about "Sock puppet accusations discouraged" was removed by user:Isomorphic, with the justification "accusations of sock-puppetry are mostly considered uncool by sockpuppets and those who use them."
That makes no sense, and sounds rather McCarthyist. "If you think people shouldn't be accused wrongly of being a sock puppet, you must be one!" It also insinuates that user:259 is a sock puppet, which is very unlikely.
Clearly it's much worse to be accused of being a sock puppet when you are a new user who has done no wrong, than if the accusation is true. Also, I would think that helpful contributors to Wikipedia would mourn the loss of new users much more than those who are out to manipulate it using sock puppets.
The justification for reverting was an example of exactly the type of ad hominem attack that the text described. Since the reason for removing it was unfounded, I've put the text back.
----------
I agree with this.  IMO accusations should be made directly to an administrator, privately, who can then make a judgement based on evidence.  Accusations should not be made publicly at all without a degree of evidence. Zordrac  (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 03:31, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sock puppet accusations discouraged 

message: I use wikipedia and have made a few edits. My  husband wishes to also and he is probably more capable than I am since he is a writer. Can we each have our own id ? I don't want him using mine.67.110.225.236 03:18, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Question re: sockpuppets

message: The issue of people sharing their accounts publicly has surfaced again -- on Talk:Vandalism this time. If Wikipedia policy actually deals with this issue, I'd like to know where so that the nonsense can be soundly quashed. If it does not -- understandable, since it seems to be common sense to many people -- then perhaps it should.
(Why do I think it's common sense? The idea that an account password is secret follows directly from the idea that it's worth having passwords at all. The idea that an account is for one person follows directly from making a distinction between logged-in users and nameless users: if an an account's password is published, it is equivalent to a nameless user (such as, say, a proxy) because its contributions do not come from one person and thus cannot contribute to a coherent reputation.)
A draft:
:In the past, a few editors have published the passwords to their accounts, usually to make a point about anonymity or to use Wikipedia as an experiment in anarchy. These are not what Wikipedia is here for.
:Publishing or sharing the password to an account contravenes the reasons for that account's existence. Therefore, any account whose password is published may be locked by changing the password. Anyone may do this; however, it is encouraged to mention the action on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.
This is not intended as a new idea, but rather to codify existing practice and dispel concerns that the locking of published-password accounts is a new idea every time it comes up.
Thoughts? --FOo 06:40, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with this. I see few public accounts on here, but usually the admins and other people with power have changed the passwords to make the account non-accessable. Plus, IMHO, public accounts can easily used to sockpuppetry. Zscout370 (talk) 14:28, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Published-password accounts 

message: I have been tracking two user names, but I am sure that one is sock puppet for the other.  Their behaviors indicate to me that they are sock puppets and creator.  Following my interaction with them, my user page has been vandalised. Interestingly, the vandal assumed a name simular to mine - in much the same way a recent Request for Comment was vandalised.  I am fearful of retribution, but I believe that the truth is worth fighting for. And who can dispute facts, no?  Answer me here if you can.  Time For Honesty 00:08, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
*Hi user:Stude62, your new sockpuppet Time For Honesty has no contributions to articles. Time For Honesty only insulted Wikipedia users when I investigated his record. Several users in this section maintain that this smells like a sockpuppet. Your question smells like vindictive behavior. Who are you to judge 05:58, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who can I turn to for a second opinion on sock puppets 

message: I have moved the material on accounts that aren't actually sockpuppets into its own section, and expanded a bit. A sockpuppet is when one flesh-and-blood human has more than one Wikipedia identity.  New, single-purpose accounts shouldn't be called sockpuppets.  It's inaccurate and often taken as an insult by the subject.  I'm not arguing that we should weight heavily the opinions of such accounts, just that we should be accurate and precise about how we treat them.    Isomorphic 05:58, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meatpuppets 

message: :Cross-posted to Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)
How about revising the WikiMedia software so that along with each edit, a hashed version of the editor's IP address would be listed in the edit history? That way, it would be possible to determine if two users have the same IP address, without actually giving away their IP address. Joo-joo eyeball 15:23, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a good idea in principle. However, it might be prone to abuse: someone looking to find a user's IP address could iterate through the space of all IP addresses finding those that match the hash. The IPv4 space isn't so prohibitively large as you might expect.  My workstation (a 2GHz Xeon) can compute ten million MD5-Base64 hashes in 43 seconds in Perl, while still doing other things at the same time. At that rate, it would only take about 18500 seconds (5.1 hours) to test the entire 4 billion possible IP addresses. --FOo 15:57, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It gets worse: John the Ripper, suitably modified to compute simple MD5 instead of salted MD5, can do ten million per second on an Athlon XP2000+, covering the entire allocated IP address space (2,600,468,480 addresses) in about four and a half minutes. --Carnildo 17:22, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sockpuppet check via hashing

message: How about if each IP is assigned a randomly-generated code that is listed in the edit history. E.g., suppose I make an edit to Wikipedia for the first time. My IP address is randomly assigned code 562951413. From that point onward, 562951413 will appear in the edit history next to any edits made from any account logged in under that IP address. There is no way to figure out what the real IP address is, but sockpuppet checks are easy.
For privacy reasons, anon edits should also be assigned a randomly-generated code, as opposed to the actual IP being listed there. 24.54.208.177 01:30, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Counter-proposal

message: I have become concerned at the possibility of an editor planning sockpuppet usage months in advance. Namely, by establising himself or herself under various different usernames via unconnected edits, and then, when needed, for example in a VfD, all of them being resurrected to try to win an argument. Is there any way to avoid such a situation? ~~~~ 23:27, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patience 

message: Just thought I'd toss this into the mix: The Arbitration Committee has, in at least one case, ruled that "[c]reating a second account for a given class of edits does not itself constitute sockpuppet abuse."
This was in the case of User:Ciz's offensive conduct on the Zoophilia article: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Ciz. In this case, an editor who wished not to associate his "main" username with a topic he found offensive created a second account for edits dealing with that topic. Unfortunately, his conduct in dealing with that issue was egregious, with edit wars and extensive personal attacks towards editors who disagreed with him. In the end, he (under both accounts) was banned indefinitely from editing articles on that topic.
Nonetheless, insofar as the Arbitration Committee or Wikipedia policy make use of precedent or stare decisis, it's worth noting this point of the decision: The Committee unanimously agreed that the action of using a second account to distance oneself from a topic was not itself abusive. The matter was discussed, and the fact that the Committee issued this ruling as a finding of fact is notable: they could have ruled otherwise, or simply not ruled on the issue of whether the second account was appropriate. Therefore, the ruling that second accounts are not inherently abusive is a substantive one, which should be reflected upon in describing policy.
(Disclosure: I was on the opposite side of the issue from Ciz, and voted to recommend the case to the Committee. I certainly don't mean to suggest here that his conduct was acceptable -- just that this is an interesting point of "case law", insofar as the term applies to Wikipedia policy decisions.) --FOo 17:36, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Anecdotal evidence would suggest that the use of socks by established Wikipedians for editing certain third-rail topics is more widespread than is generally believed.  The Uninvited Co., Inc. 17:49, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Agree with FOo that the policy could use some clarification on second accounts.  They're described, but little guidance is given on their level of acceptability.  If second accounts for "legitimate" purposes are allowed (and I think they should be), this should be clearly stated, and of course the "acceptable" uses would need to be pretty carefully defined, too (though I'm sure this could turn into a can of worms).  Also, it needs to be stated whether it's acceptable for second accounts to be anonymous, or whether there should be some publicly-visible link(s) between the related accounts. Steve Summit 16:31, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Acceptable uses of sock puppets / second accounts 

message: Does anyone know why the term sockpuppet was chosen to describe people with multiple accounts. I would have thought that the term 'ALIAS' would be more descriptive especially to newcomers.
Any answers??Light current 06:49, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The term sockpuppet is fairly widely used in bulletin boards, discussion groups, and the like.  Many user names (such as mine) are aliases rather than real names.  Sock puppertry creates the illusion that there are multiple people where there is acutally only one; aliases by themselves do not.  The Uninvited Co., Inc. 20:07, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Choice of Term Sockpuppet 

message: Please give me your opinion on the following:
The text of sock puppet tags reads, "This user is a sockpuppet of SOCKPUPPETEER, and has been blocked indefinitely."  Can a non-admin user actually cause an account to be blocked by tagging its User Page, without some validation or operation by an admin?  If so, I think the instructions for tagging should warn about this.  If not, I suggest the tag be amended.  (I'm a non-admin, and tagged someone recently.  I was under the impression that the tag was for display purposes only, and had not affect on the user's ability to post.)
Your thoughts?   Paul Klenk 23:30, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible need for rewording of puppet tags or tagging instructions 

message: Template:Sockpuppet as of now has no conditions how to be used. Thus, it is easy to use it as personal attacks. Does the tagger have any reponsibility?? Arrigo 09:42, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It currently says on the page this discussion page is attached to, that it's for *CONFIRMED* sockpuppets... --Phroziac(talk) 21:26, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree, I have seen many occasions when sock puppetry has been used as a tool of personal attacks.  For obvious reasons, I won't quote to actual examples, but I can count 5 times when it happened - 4 of them as part of AFD votes. Zordrac  (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 03:26, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The suspicion-template is now probe to be a tool of abuse 

message: Do you consider an anon account a "sockpuppet"? I think that should be made clearer in the article. Borisblue 23:15, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd guess not. Right?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:34, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Anon accounts

message: I have made 3 edits to this section, I suspect none should be controversial although on the DIFF it looks substantial.
# Added a common but unlisted basis for multiple accounts: "A person editing an article which is highly controversial within their social circle may wish to use a sock puppet so that readers unfamiliar with WP:NPOV policy will not assume their information edits are statements of personal belief."
# Moved the sentence "Users with an expertise in mathematics, for example, might not wish to associate their contributions to detailed mathematical articles with contributions to articles about less weighty subjects." to the next paragraph (which deals with identity protection), and generalized it from "Users with an expertise in mathematics" to "Users with a recognized expertise in one field".
# Simplified the wording of the remaining text:
#*Original: "Others might use different accounts in talk pages to avoid extending conflicts about a particular area of interest into communitywide political conflicts related to user identity rather than to article content. A person participating in a discussion of an article about abortion, for example, might not want to allow other participants an opportunity to extend that discussion by engaging a particular user in unrelated but philosophically motivated debate outside of that discussion."
#*New: "Others might use different accounts in talk pages to avoid extending conflicts about a particular area of interest into conflicts based upon user identity. A person participating in a discussion of an article about abortion, for example, might not want to allow other participants an opportunity to extend that discussion or engage them in unrelated or philosophically motivated debate outside the context of that article."
This leaves two paragraphs of similar length as before, one on multiple accounts used to prevent a discussion spreading beyond the article, one on multiple accounts for identity protection.
FT2 23:58, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit to section: Multiple accounts

message: This page has been mildly vandalized. Just thought I might bring this up. Please fix it. Davidizer13 17:56, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: The only time it's ever acceptable to have a sockpuppet is if you're under constant threat of abuse and possible harm. 
If you want to see Wikipedia from another viewpoint -- change the way you behave, ask others for their opinions or just edit new areas! If you want a new user name, just tell a bureaucrat and they'll help you out! If you have a bad reputation, ask for forgiveness and then work towards earning that forgiveness. No reputation is so bad that it cannot be redeemed given enough time and effort. Karmafist 19:32, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: My Opinion

message: I have noticed that the sock puppet issue is raised regularly in Wikipedia: Articles for deletion with people regularly accusing each other of sock puppetry.  Typically, this is done when an article has been listed for deletion, yet a number of people are voting "Keep" on the article.
Whilst I have no problem with the accusations being made when the comments are unsigned, are all from the same IP address, or are with accounts that were newly created, the reality is that false accusations of sock puppetry are increasingly being used by Deletionists to try to push forward a deletion on an article that otherwise was going to be kept.
One example was in a case where a published author and journalist was winning a vote 7/3, when an unknown user then vandalised the page and deleted all 3 delete votes.  As a result, the next 15 votes were for delete, 11 of them saying that their reason for voting delete was because the page had been vandalised by its author.  Yet the vandal had not voted, and was not a sock puppet of the author or anyone who had voted.  The final tally was 21/9 in favour of delete, and it was deleted.  Isn't it more likely that the sock puppet was the nominator, or else someone else who wanted to try to push for a deletion?
A second example was in a recently concluded case where a vote finished 11/9 in favour of keep, with 5 IP addresses voting (all different IPs).  The closing admin said "not counting sock puppets, it is a delete by community decision".  Is it?  The IP addresses were all different IPs - surely it is easier to create a new account than it is to create a new IP?  Again, another example where false claims of sock puppetry had influenced a vote - in this case the administrator was misled.
These cases are becoming increasingly common.  Whilst occasionally sock puppets are used to try to make sure that a Vfd ends up with a "keep" vote, this is not very common.  It seems that it is more common for the accusation to be made to try to influence a deletion.
I would like to see the policy amended to cater for this kind of false accusation. Zordrac  (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 00:50, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dude, you need a break from AfD.  Try editing and cleaning up some random pages. Peyna 14:05, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  False accusations 

message: I created Template:Meatpuppet for use in cases of suspected meatpuppetry (i.e. a flood of invited newbies on AFD discussions). Firebug 18:18, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't bite the newbies. Those "meat puppets" can and do turn into useful contributors. What kind of situation would this template possibly improve? rspeer 19:18, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

text: The ones where they attacked poor little old me last week. :( Zordrac  (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 15:09, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Stamping a template on their user pages wouldn't have solved anything, though. rspeer 17:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: New meatpuppet template

message: It says it's an official policy, but the second paragraph,~it quotes Jimbo "There's no specific policy against it" →AzaToth 19:31, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  inconsistency 

message: Is it acceptable for a user to have one account from which to make valid edits, and another account from which to make invalid edits? AII in 17:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separate accounts for valid edits and vandalism? 

message: Fellows, Missionary, after a spree of vandalizing and generally starting all kinds of trouble in the few days since he registered, accidentally proved that he is a sockpuppet of Retcon while trying to disprove it on a Talk page. The question I have for you is, who do I report this to in order to get the sockpuppet banned (which I gather is/can be done based on what the SockpuppetProven template says, which is also the only reason I haven't slapped said tag on the user's page) or whatever else is done about them? From reading above, it seems that Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents and Wikipedia:Requests for comment are two possibilities, but I'm not sure whether to bring it up on one of those (and which one it would be), both of them, some third page that wasn't mentioned, through email to someone with CheckUser powers (I've made a request to Jayjg, but he hasn't responded; I've seen on MetaWiki (I think) that someone requested that no one use CheckUser until further notice, so that may have something to do with it), or what. Thanks for the direction.Tommstein 09:39, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd report it on WP:AN/I. If the user has violated WP:3RR (four or more reversions to the same article in a 24 hour span, in total between all their sockpuppets) you might consider reporting the violation on WP:3RR. But be sure to include evidence (in the form of diffs) for your sockpuppet accusation. —Locke Cole 09:44, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If they've broken 3RR (which I hadn't thought about until you mentioned it), it hasn't been for at least a couple days, because they've made themselves relatively scarce outside of removing sockpuppet tags from their user and talk pages and trying to have the pages speedily deleted in the day or so since they fugged up and proved they were a sockpuppet. Indeed, there are diffs establishing with basically 100% certainty that they are a sockpuppet, so that's no worry. I'll try to gather up all the evidence into one neat coherent page before reporting, since they were committing every other known form of vandalism the other day, but suffered no consequence because someone decided it was just a content dispute due to the fact that they were also making some non-vandalism edits on other pages. Thanks.Tommstein 10:07, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you need help, holler me. I hate sockpuppet. __earth 17:14, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I've got some sockpuppetry and little knowledge of who to report to 

message: Perhaps the images of the sockpuppets should be removed, or at least moved down on the page to prevent misunderstanding? The image "A sock puppet on Wikipedia." is both funny and cute, but a page on official Wikipedia policy might not be an appropriate place for irony. Comments? --Bensin 07:41, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I dislike the images.  An image was first added to the page by a confirmed sock.  The drawing was added by someone looking for a home for it.  The current photo was added by a user who contributes extensively to uncyclopedia; one may conclude that his sense of humor may be rather more well-developed than that of most other Wikipedians.  I do not believe that the illustrations contribute anything useful and agree that they should be removed. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 16:16, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images of sock puppets misleading? 

message: Hi! I think I have accidentally spotted some sockpuppet activity. The following users: Millennium Sentinel, Darth Dalek, Hiram man, Bolton TI, Imacomp are probably sockpuppets. Looking at their contributions one can see that they are mostly awarding each other barnstars (so it might not necessarily be serious). The leader of these minions is probably User:Skull 'n' Femurs - he and the first one only have a significant amount of edits. I'm listing it here 'cause I don't know a better place. Can someone direct me (or simply investigate and take care of this matter)? --Misza13 (Talk) 17:10, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ask somebody at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposed_CheckUser_Policy#Current_users_with_access_as_of_November_2005 to do a CheckUser check for you. Prepare to be ignored, most likely (although I've actually gotten a couple to do the checks, one which revealed the details although only because of special circumstances of the specific situation, and one which said to start an arbitration request to find out the results). Look up this page for my proposal of how sockpuppet checks could be made a million times easier, and start preaching its glory when all six of the chosen English Wikipedia administrators ignore you because they have more important things to do than making sure that sockpuppeteers don't single-handedly compromise the integrity of the encyclopedia or they just don't care.Tommstein 23:42, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

text: So, why did change my above comment dewikifying links to mentioned users? And why are you doing strange things such as welcoming yourself to Wikipedia? Actually the second diff to your talk page is also quite amusing. I didn't yet bother to dig in the other users' histories due to lack of time - that's why I wanted to know whether there are professional "detectives" around here.--Misza13 (Talk) 23:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Huh?Tommstein 04:16, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You'll note that I didn't accuse you of being a sock, I stated that I recalled seeing that you had been identified as a Sock.  Given that statement I dug about and found this statement again.  If you object to that description then that's up to you. ALR 21:58, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reporting sockpuppets 

message: How can a ip be defined as a sock puppet (see :Category:Wikipedia:Sock puppets)? →AzaToth 19:14, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Example for those wondering (I think this may have been in partial reply to my post on Administrators' noticeboard): : It was not clear at all that the user was BYT until after he said it, and looking at the list of contributions he's obviously been using it for quite some while. It's a big question whether such things are acceptable or not, it seems a bit unclear as it is.. --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 22:16, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  IP-socks 

message: I uploaded some files for use on my user page.  I then talked to User:Coyoty to get his opinion.  He never responded but he still edited.  Instead, I get a response from another user, User:ContiE who says he does not like them.  The two users have not been in contact with each other since I sent the message and did the edits.  ContiE also responded very hostily--deleting the images without proper voting.  My guess is Coyoty is one of his socks and does not have admin functions.  (I am posting here because I searched and searched and can't find where to post this but here.)  Arights 09:53, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Honestly, if anyone needs to be checked, it's you. Removing copyright information provided by the uploader is what I would call malicious editing. GreenReaper 09:31, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

text: And for any that doubt that A is B, I would suggest checking the image title here with the comment added to the above page. GreenReaper 09:35, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your links are deceptive.  I put that info in the page first.  Somebody reverted me.  Somebody else reverted them.  Then you came in and reverted them.  If I'm that person then you're Ekevu and ContiE and Zanimum and Thodin.  And you lied about removing information as then you do the same thing, see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image%3AFursuit_autumn_fox_hotel.jpg&diff=37194906&oldid=36977581 you removed  something.  Arights 11:16, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Uninvolved note:* CheckUsring comes from here. 68.39.174.238 07:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I need someone to CheckUser for me, HELP! help! 

message: Hello.  Zarbon is is posting under two different sock puppet accounts (User:149.68.168.154 and User:72.227.132.62) to perpetuate a revert war (along with statements like "I agree with him" while referring to himself etc.).  The page most noteably affected is Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi.  Any help would be appreciated.
I should note that this account is one of two for me as I use the two for different subjects.  With my other account I semi-protected the page to keep out the sock-puppets. Beowulph 18:33, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[User:Zarbon]]

message: When it comes to legitimate uses of a secondary account, what about using it to avoid reprisal? For example, someone may wish to vote against someone becoming an admin, especially if the nomination is successful, but is afraid that he or she will make enemies who may vote against him or her becoming an admin, arbitrator or bureaucrat or go around and revert his or her edits. Another situation is when someone wishes to state an unpopular opinion, but not racist, nonsensical, trolling or vandalism, and is afraid of the same thing. -- Kjkolb 06:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My opinion of this is that the votes are not true votes, but rather endorsements of an opinion. See, for example, the response (which I believe is correct) to my cancelled vote on User:William M. Connolley's successful admin nomination. In my opinion, users are stating their beliefs in votes here, not actually voting, so a sock puppet created just to vote against a nomination would not be useful. --Philosophus 07:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what you mean. Couldn't an editor face reprisal for stating his or her beliefs? Also, couldn't a sock puppet state his or her beliefs just as effectively? -- Kjkolb 09:59, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avoiding reprisal 

message: There seems to be a contradiction in the use of "sock puppet" here. Though most of the policy uses the term to refer to any additional account, we also have "But you must refrain from using them in any way prohibited to sock puppets and from using one account to support the position of another, the standard definition of sock puppetry." Though I could understand having two differing definitions here, the situation should be clarified --Philosophus 07:19, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. It is confusing to have multiple definitions and the article sometimes calls a second account a sockpuppert even if it is not being used improperly, like supporting the position of another or evading a block. -- Kjkolb 07:27, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sock puppet definition? 

message: Last night I restored the Jimbo quote at the top of the article.  User:Keycard removed half of it on March 1.  I just want to verify that the whole quote should be included. The entire quote had been part of the article since March 27, 2004.  Please comment if you agree on its continued inclusion.
I am a bit taken aback.  After I made the edit (my first for a while) I was threatened to be blocked on  my user talk page.  Please take a look at my edit, and see if  Nlu was right in threatening me.  This is scary that an admin will threaten blocking a user for restoring some content that had been in place for almost two years, after it had been removed with no discussion. ContentLuver 16:04, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems a bit odd to me. Anyway, while reverting the 'policy update' made by User:Zbestplaya before your edit, I accidentally removed the edit again. Glad to see you have put it back. Here's the source btw -- zzuuzz (talk) 16:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought so too. No prob missing the restored quote. Hopefully Jimbo's words can remain pure into the future.  Thanks. ContentLuver 03:10, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jimbo Quote

message: Are sockpuppets (without violation of Wikipedia Policy) a violation of wikipedia policy? Let's thouroughly discuss this because there are many admins who submit sock puppet users for a Check User without a policy violations.  Further, there are admins with Check User priveleges that perform a Check User without a policy violation.  Further more, there are admins who block sock puppets without stating a violation, and simply state the block was because the account was a sock puppet. Let's get some concensus on this. LetsSettleIt 01:20, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well if you read the policy page, you can see that there are guidelines that are encouraged for users who wish to use secondary accounts. If you feel that you have been blocked unfairly, you can contact the blocking admin to discuss it, or contact other Administrators for other opinions. Feel free to contact me personally, I'll be willing to review blocks on request. Ëvilphoenix Burn! 01:58, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Are Sock Puppets A Policy Violation

message: I, in my naivety, believed that sockpuppetry was banned here at Wikipedia. Not at all: it is thoroughly welcomed, and anyone uncovered for using a sockpuppet walks away totally unscathed, without even a mild rebuke. Jolly good for them, the clever chaps!
And here was silly old me, working away with only one account while the sockpuppets and meatpuppets run rings round us. Ah well, you live and learn:
*WP:RCU#Owain_.28talk_.E2.80.A2_contribs.29.2C_MonMan_.28talk_.E2.80.A2_contribs.29
Congratulations Wikipedia. This is one of your most glorious hours. --Mais oui! 17:40, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you need to calm down a bit. Sarcastic, bitter messages won't result in a trove of Admins running to your assistance. If you read the policy, the use of sockpuppets is not cause for an automatic ban. Abuse of sockpuppets is something else entirely. It doesn't sound though that it's been clearly established, but that's with a cursory examination of where you linked. However the Talk page of the relevant policy is not really the place to seek assistance, you'd have better luck with asking for assistance on RCU or the Administrator's Noticeboard. Ëvilphoenix Burn! 20:02, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are sockpuppets not banned? 

message: (As expected) it's nowhere stated what to do if you're wrongly accused of sockpuppetry, except that "If you have been accused incorrectly of being a sock puppet, don't take it too personally." An anon user (I even have a hunch who) has placed the template on my page  as well as the one of new User:Thomas.macmillan (whom I first heard of today). Basically, it's pretty silly harrasment against me (that I don't care much about), but it's a harrasment against a newbie. Now what? Should I remove the template myself? WP:AN/I? Or... Duja 14:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Malicious accusations? 

message: Don't you think you are taking this a bit too seriously/too far?
Really?
:No. Ëvilphoenix Burn! 01:27, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overly serious nerds? 

message: I think that this page has problems which should be addressed.
One of the mos important rules which help us get rid of vandals and POV warriors is WP:3RR. Once the user gets blocked for breaking the 3RR, first thing he'll do is use a sockpuppet. Therefore I think that Wikipedia policy on sokcpuppets should be precise and consistent in both terminology and methodology. Furthermore, I think that it isn't precise and consistent at this moment. Therefore I'd like to propose two distinct changes to this policy page. "Distinct" means that this proposed changes are pretty much unconnected, so I'd like to see two unconnected discussions (if one proposal fails, that shouldn't affect the other). --Dijxtra 12:00, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * I like those two templates, and I'd support them. FT2 (Talk) 22:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

text: But overall, this would be an improvement. --Philosophus 08:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major reconstruction of this policy page 

message: * I like. A nice, and well thought out, way of handling it. I'd support this FT2 (Talk) 14:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * I like those two templates, and I'd support them. FT2 (Talk) 22:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

text: But overall, this would be an improvement. --Philosophus 08:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion