Talk:Andrew Forrest

message: Design made a reversion (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andrew_Forrest&diff=463972236&oldid=463934376), and then converted an unlinked misleading and deceptive conduct to misleading and deceptive conduct. I would suggest WP:NPOV for an individual to stop progress of an article, for which I have made direct references to. I have introduced his in-link to misleading and deceptive conduct, but I would suggest, if further reasoning for why the reversion cannot be delineated, that the reversion not be made (by Design). Twigfan (talk) 15:26, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Twigfan, I'm undoing some of your edits (that you re-applied after Design reverted them). I'll put links to specific MOS guidelines in the edit summary to explain why. Please discuss those specific changes here if you disagree with my edits, rather than WP:EDITWARRING. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:27, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

text: User:Mitch Ames, I've looked through our 18 edits and it looks fined. Just changes from relisting "Andrew Forrest" to he, changing order of words, internal linking. Thanks in particular for enlisting the reasons, just helps to add to transparency. Also, thanks for adding additional references! The only issue I had with User:Design was that everything I did was undone without explanation. Twigfan (talk) 10:49, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reversion by Design 

message: I've changed "born Feb 1961" to just "born 1961", in the absence of a reliable reference. These two articles  strongly imply that he was born in October or November 1961. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:52, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I got the month from the date this article was written. And you're write, it says he flew up "last October", the article was just written later. Apologies for that. Would be even better to get an even more reliable source, however. Twigfan (talk) 10:49, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not born in February 

message: A gentleman by the name of Cameron Morse, allegedly an employee of FMG, was accused of editing the Andrew Forrest, and Fortescue Metals Group Wikipedia pages, on online Australian news publisher crikey.com.au. The discussion has been moved to Talk:Fortescue Metals Group so there is not a duplicate of delineations, and likely more suitable for that page, since there was only 1 edit to Andrew Forrest, whereas the other edits were to FMG and Deidre Willmott. Twigfan (talk) 10:57, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ha Ha. Are you trolling Twigfan (using the words "gentleman" and "allegedly")? I thought you supported NPOV? You seem to be saying that it is of no consequence (i.e no conflict of interest, no contravention of Wikipedia policy) that a professional PR person, employed by FMG, can make a "favourable" edit to the article about Andrew Forrest. "Only 1 edit"...indeed?! "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson --Design (talk) 12:52, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Umm not sure why you're suggesting I'm trolling. But as I said on Talk:Fortescue Metals Group, it is not appropriate for a professional PR person, employed FMG, to make a favorable edit to Andrew Forrest - none at all. It's stated in pure black ink. Twigfan (talk) 17:06, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Cameron Morse

message: As Australia's richest man, there should be plentiful of references to him. This should be a listing for articles relating to him. Please don't just copy and dump. Try to include a quick description to the facts that the article may be supported. Twigfan (talk) 06:26, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but no.  This isn't a listing of articles about him.  We are an encyclopaedia and content needs to be encyclopaedic and not simply news reporting (ref WP:NOTNEWS).  Content must come from reliable sources and not editorialised opinion or blogs.  Moondyne (talk) 13:17, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

text: With relation to news reporting, I think the issue is WP:RECENT. Evidently, although some news sources may post gossip/rumors, they cite factual quotes, which will be useful for addition. As to WP:RS, I think to assess propensity of source, you need to look at the publisher. For example, the supra enlisted Perth Now and The Australian are both owned by News Corp. I'd say they are reliable. To be quite fair, I think, contrasting them against the "web" newspaper crikey, their veracity is far greater. Twigfan (talk) 02:42, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

text: I was going to add, if you're trying to realize intention of what I'm trying to do with recommended changes, please view the Non-Primary Sourced section of this discussion. Things that can be implemented can stipulate  Done and things that aren't,  Not done:. Twigfan (talk) 02:46, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Attempt to bring increased rigor to the article

message: === actively involved in evangelism? ===
I've removed the claim that Forrest is "actively involved in evangelism in the market place", in accordance with WP:BLPSOURCES because "evangelism" may be considered controversial. The cited reference does not say he is "actively involved in evangelism", it says that he "will be speaking on the story of FMG ... [and] ... on how his faith and beliefs have impacted and guided his decisions". The connotations of "actively involved in evangelism" are far more than the fact of speaking to a group of evangelists (assuming that is a fair description of them). Mitch Ames (talk) 13:34, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Um yeah I guess I'd concur the (at least temporary) removal of "evangelism" since it could be construed as "controversial" her WP:BLP. However, if you look at the enlisted reference, it does state "It is our desire to see the ministry of Jesus taken from within the walls of churches, and into the marketplace". If that's not the pejorative definition of evangelism, then I really don't know what is. Twigfan (talk) 15:46, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  NB: Evangelism seems to be defined in Wikipedia as Christian proselytism, i.e. "the practice of relaying information about a particular set of beliefs to others who do not hold those beliefs". If the intent was non-evangelical, they'd contain it within the "walls of churches", so it should be safely assumed, the desire to shift it "into the marketplace" is an attempt to proselytize? Twigfan (talk) 15:49, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not disputing that CITM are evangelists. One could reasonably state, citing their website, that CITM are "actively involved in evangelism in the market place". However the text I removed said that Forrest is actively involved in evangelism in the market place (not that CITM were). The cited reference says he will be addressing CITM, not that he is one of them, or even that he supports their evangelism. The theme of his talk is "the story of FMG ... " and "how his faith and beliefs have ... guided [him]". The theme of his talk is not "Andrew Forrest will be speaking about his evangelism ..." (in the market place or anywhere else). Perhaps he is a member of CITM, and perhaps he is "actively involved in evangelism in the market place", but we cannot deduce that from the cited reference. If we are to include that statement in the article, we must have a reliable source that says so explicitly. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:53, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, correlation does not equate causation. Twigfan (talk) 10:19, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

text: Just because one reads something does not imply that one believes it, especially to be the literal truth. Note also that CITM says "his faith and beliefs have ... guided [him]", not "his belief in the bible" or even "the bible" have guided him. I do not think we should infer his belief in the bible, and I suggest that WP:SYNTH agrees with me on this. (We have an article on the specific term Bible believer, but I'm not sure that helps resolve the point either way.) Mitch Ames (talk) 05:32, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, I did think you'd put that point up, as I said supra. Until Forrest publicly identifies his denomination of Christianity, I think it will be hard to draw further conclusions. Also, beliefs of the conference doesn't mean those are his own personal beliefs. However, one does wonder why he is speaking at an evangelical meeting about doing ministry within business if that isn't his own intention. I do understand WP:NOR, but I was just thinking the degree of inference that can be drawn. This point will be a bit circular, but if his "faith and belief" is not in the bible - then what it is in? Jesus? But doesn't the common understanding of Jesus derive itself from the bible? But I get what you mean also, when you state "believe" could be interpreted as "literal truth". I digress my point until further press releases. The story unfolds. Twigfan (talk) 10:18, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You said: Until Forrest publicly identifies his denomination of Christianity, I think it will be hard to draw further conclusions.But it would be more appropriate (in the context of this talk page section "bible believing") to say: Until Forrest publicly states his belief in the bible, and that statement is reported in a reputable source, WP:BLP does not allow us to make statements about such belief in the bible. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:47, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

text:  Also, when you think about it - yes, you could subsume intention of ulterior motive in helping the aboriginals as he's acquiring their land, but what is his ulterior motive in speaking at a christian business evangelism meeting? To associate himself with a minority group, thus sidelining a majority of his shareholders? Because he was paid a huge sum (what percentage of his 9.7bn?) to attend this event? Twigfan (talk) 10:24, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  You said: What is his ulterior motive in speaking at a christian business evangelism meeting?That's not for us to say - we just report the facts. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:57, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  So based on this source, would you accept, "He speaks at church events." Twigfan (talk) 16:55, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, because that ref has him speaking to one group that is not a church or in a church. Your "speaking circuit" was better although that phrase is a bit vague, and I've updated it from "conferred" (implies two way conversation) to "addressed". Mitch Ames (talk) 13:49, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Delineation of Andrew as a Christian

message: I've removed the claim that Forrest is "actively involved in evangelism in the market place", in accordance with WP:BLPSOURCES because "evangelism" may be considered controversial. The cited reference does not say he is "actively involved in evangelism", it says that he "will be speaking on the story of FMG ... [and] ... on how his faith and beliefs have impacted and guided his decisions". The connotations of "actively involved in evangelism" are far more than the fact of speaking to a group of evangelists (assuming that is a fair description of them). Mitch Ames (talk) 13:34, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Um yeah I guess I'd concur the (at least temporary) removal of "evangelism" since it could be construed as "controversial" her WP:BLP. However, if you look at the enlisted reference, it does state "It is our desire to see the ministry of Jesus taken from within the walls of churches, and into the marketplace". If that's not the pejorative definition of evangelism, then I really don't know what is. Twigfan (talk) 15:46, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  NB: Evangelism seems to be defined in Wikipedia as Christian proselytism, i.e. "the practice of relaying information about a particular set of beliefs to others who do not hold those beliefs". If the intent was non-evangelical, they'd contain it within the "walls of churches", so it should be safely assumed, the desire to shift it "into the marketplace" is an attempt to proselytize? Twigfan (talk) 15:49, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not disputing that CITM are evangelists. One could reasonably state, citing their website, that CITM are "actively involved in evangelism in the market place". However the text I removed said that Forrest is actively involved in evangelism in the market place (not that CITM were). The cited reference says he will be addressing CITM, not that he is one of them, or even that he supports their evangelism. The theme of his talk is "the story of FMG ... " and "how his faith and beliefs have ... guided [him]". The theme of his talk is not "Andrew Forrest will be speaking about his evangelism ..." (in the market place or anywhere else). Perhaps he is a member of CITM, and perhaps he is "actively involved in evangelism in the market place", but we cannot deduce that from the cited reference. If we are to include that statement in the article, we must have a reliable source that says so explicitly. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:53, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, correlation does not equate causation. Twigfan (talk) 10:19, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  actively involved in evangelism? 

message: I did want to know why you'd removed bible-believing but based on the enlisted article, based on the word reads his bible, I'm assuming it'd be argued Forrest is a bible-reading, rather than bible-believing Christian. Given this source says "his faith and beliefs have... guided his decisions", do people think that's a safe call to infer he believes in the bible? Or else, what is he having his faith in? Hmm, understanding the history of this article subject to edit wars, I'll give it some time for other's to input. Not a biggie :) Twigfan (talk) 15:46, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because one reads something does not imply that one believes it, especially to be the literal truth. Note also that CITM says "his faith and beliefs have ... guided [him]", not "his belief in the bible" or even "the bible" have guided him. I do not think we should infer his belief in the bible, and I suggest that WP:SYNTH agrees with me on this. (We have an article on the specific term Bible believer, but I'm not sure that helps resolve the point either way.) Mitch Ames (talk) 05:32, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, I did think you'd put that point up, as I said supra. Until Forrest publicly identifies his denomination of Christianity, I think it will be hard to draw further conclusions. Also, beliefs of the conference doesn't mean those are his own personal beliefs. However, one does wonder why he is speaking at an evangelical meeting about doing ministry within business if that isn't his own intention. I do understand WP:NOR, but I was just thinking the degree of inference that can be drawn. This point will be a bit circular, but if his "faith and belief" is not in the bible - then what it is in? Jesus? But doesn't the common understanding of Jesus derive itself from the bible? But I get what you mean also, when you state "believe" could be interpreted as "literal truth". I digress my point until further press releases. The story unfolds. Twigfan (talk) 10:18, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You said: Until Forrest publicly identifies his denomination of Christianity, I think it will be hard to draw further conclusions.But it would be more appropriate (in the context of this talk page section "bible believing") to say: Until Forrest publicly states his belief in the bible, and that statement is reported in a reputable source, WP:BLP does not allow us to make statements about such belief in the bible. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:47, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

text:  Also, when you think about it - yes, you could subsume intention of ulterior motive in helping the aboriginals as he's acquiring their land, but what is his ulterior motive in speaking at a christian business evangelism meeting? To associate himself with a minority group, thus sidelining a majority of his shareholders? Because he was paid a huge sum (what percentage of his 9.7bn?) to attend this event? Twigfan (talk) 10:24, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  You said: What is his ulterior motive in speaking at a christian business evangelism meeting?That's not for us to say - we just report the facts. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:57, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  So based on this source, would you accept, "He speaks at church events." Twigfan (talk) 16:55, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, because that ref has him speaking to one group that is not a church or in a church. Your "speaking circuit" was better although that phrase is a bit vague, and I've updated it from "conferred" (implies two way conversation) to "addressed". Mitch Ames (talk) 13:49, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: "Bible believing"

message: In this video, in "Hall's Creek" (if I caught that correctly), Andrew talks about "smoke for poke" here at the time 22:20. He says at 22:40 the scream of women were "pearcing" through the night, that he would wake up "cold and sweatty". He says it was fuelled by "grog" (liquor) and "gangi" (marijuana). I've added in the complaint against him to HREOC, and I understand it's inherently reliable - because it's just an "allegation". And I understand there is an issue with WP:RECENT too, but I think, the case is still pending HREOC, and it should be okay if the final result can be reported, there will be no WP:NPOV issue. Twigfan (talk) 15:29, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This phrase of "smoke for poke" is actually not prolific, and tends to just relate to a phrase used against aboriginal people (Google search phrase "smoke+for+a+poke"+aboriginal). What Forrest is hinting to is a similar "sex ring bust" in the Kimberley region, where 132 people were charged with 600 offenses, and 39% of victims were under 13. Twigfan (talk) 15:38, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: "Smoke for poke"

message: I've removed this phrase as apart of my editing:
: [Andrew Forrest] is a major shareholder of Fortescue Metals Group (FMG)
Please don't get me wrong, I don't dispute this fact. I just think it should be sourced, and considered, which section it best fits in. I'm not sure if the intro is the most appropriate place for it either. Twigfan (talk) 16:23, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:   Done Don't worry, I sourced this and reintroduced it. Twigfan (talk) 17:03, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Major shareholder of FMG

message: This is a reversion to an edit by User:Mitch Ames.
I'm going to move the controversy material into its respective sections. The reason why I'm going to do so is as follows. In the Miley Cyrus article, she has a separate section called "controversies", because she's engaged in controversial things that aren't going to fit into any other sections of her career. For example, the provocative MySpace bra photos, lap dancing, smoking weed. For example, the controversial Teen Choice Awards (dancing on a pole) is outlined, as She also sang a brief song about her several controversies, such as the bong incident, the photo of her friend and she eating a Twizzler, and the "pole dance" on a hotel pole at the Teen Choice Awards, stating "I'm sorry that I'm not perfect.", under the Career section. Whereas, things like bra photos, lap dancing, smoking weed: it's hard to associate these with any part of her life, apart from the fact - it's just pure controversy, hence its own section.
This is as contrasted with the Forrest article, where the controversy relating to misleading and deceptive conduct clearly relates to FMG, and the controversy regarding indigenous people would fit well under his philanthropic work with indigenous people.
I know those who don't like Forrest won't like this, because there won't be an explicit section with the deep dirty controversies, but it makes more sense to properly group information into their respective sections - where possible. Twigfan (talk) 16:42, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: PS if the reference is made to my creation of the controversies section on Tammy Franks, the situation is analogous. Her court case regarding the Australian Taxation Office couldn't be reasonably a paragraph under "career" - because you couldn't construe an ATO lawsuit as reasonably apart of your career. This is as distinct from misleading and deceptive conduct (which can be put under the FMG section), and indigenous claims (which can be put under the indigenous section). Twigfan (talk) 17:00, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversy section

message: I noticed there's several listed here, the ones management-related. Same person? Twigfan (talk) 19:06, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Books authored by Forrest

message: I've removed from the lead paragraph the details that Forrest stepped down from CEO because of his philanthropy commitments, because I don't think that much detail is necessary in the lead para. It is mentioned in the Philanthropy section, but the details of his positions - including date, or at least, year that he stepped down and reason - should probably be listed explicitly in the Career/Fortescue section. I haven't done it (yet), because I'm still catching up reviewing other changes, and I can't immediately see any obvious/easy place to add the details that I want. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:06, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Positions at FMG, stepping down as CEO and reasons 

message: Under Charitable donations we currently have a paragraph that says "In 2009, Forrest opened Hale's new library". So far as I can tell, that matches the cited ref (Haleian magazine November 2009), but there's something not quite right. 
* According to Hale' web site, the Forrest library opened in February 2008.
* The November 2009 Haleian says "Forrest Library Unveiled ... Earlier this year the Forrest Library opened its doors ..."
Does anyone know why there is such a discrepancy in the dates? Mitch Ames (talk) 01:33, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked with Hale School, and e-mails from the Personal Assistant to the Headmaster and the Head of Library confirm that the library opened in February 2009 (presumably to the students, but not "officially" until July). The PA to the Headmaster is arranging to get the school's web site page corrected. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:11, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The school's web site has been updated with the correct opening date.  Mitch Ames (talk) 11:36, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The text in these paragraphs was too detailed. I have merged the text with other paragraphs. If a reader wants more detail they can access the refs. Rangasyd (talk) 10:41, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hale School library 

message: this credible article puts forward I think a more balanced representation. There is also the full version in the working papers section of the same website:
http://caepr.anu.edu.au/Publications/topical/2011TI8.php  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.56.71.53 (talk) 18:24, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  it just said something about him almost reaching the 50000 jobs target 

message: I've reverted this edit, which says he was CEO of Anaconda "... before being ousted during the company's near collapse due to project cost over-runs and its significant debt burden." This strongly implies that the collapse was his fault. Perhaps it was, but we need to cite a good reliable source for a WP:BLP. Even with a reliable source, we should not imply something, as the reverted text did. State it as a fact if the RS says it is, or don't mislead the reader if it is not a fact. Mitch Ames (talk) 14:03, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reasons for leaving Anaconda Nickel 

message: Forrest wins High Court appeal - 2nd paragraph of Andrew Forrest#Fortescue Metals needs updating accordingly. 203.176.108.99 (talk) 01:05, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  FMG High Court Appeal 

message: Some of the phrasing in the donations and philanthropy section is confusing. After updating dates and currency of the content, I have today added . Generally speaking there appears to be too much detail on philanthropy and other content. Some concise summarising and editing would help. Rangasyd (talk) 10:45, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Philanthropy 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This article has a bias away from Forrest corporate activities, giving an unbalance view and over presentation of philanthropic activities with multiple sections on similar subjects and sections being of only 2 sentences with one source. Gnangarra 10:17, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for pointing out the specific issues at the time you placed the warning tag. I agree that the redundant content should be consolidated.  The article is informative, but rambling. Jehochman Talk 12:37, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weight issues 

message: The second paragraph under "Personal life" needs to be explained or removed. It is currently just a list of well known people with no explanation as to their relevance to Andrew Forrest without following the reference.
Quote: "Liberal state Minister for Indigenous Affairs Peter Collier, and former Liberal Prime Minister John Howard,[92] billionaire James Packer, former state Labor premier Brian Burke, former deputy leader of the Liberal Party of Australia Julie Bishop, Olympic athlete Cathy Freeman, former athlete Herb Elliot, and billionaire media moguls Rupert Murdoch and Kerry Stokes, and billionaire businessman Lindsay Fox." 147.10.105.255 (talk) 01:53, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 14:51, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Famous People in Personal life 

message: The last sentence in early life is: 
"These connections do not suggest either Andrew or Nicola Forrest held any racist views and Andrew Forrest has repeatedly described racism as a barrier to economic growth in Australia."
This seems like an opinion that seems to be in response to an accusation of racism, potentially by someone who is fond of the subject. 
It may have a place elsewhere in the article but it seems out of place and irrelevant in 'Early Life' not to mention judgemental. I would advocate for removing it entirely. 
Any more experienced Wikipedians want to wade in?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ragagama (talk • contribs) 08:15, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It really does seem out of place where it is, I have removed it. If people disagree they can revert me. Greyjoy talk 08:18, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potentially Problematic Section 

message: Please edit and remove the information stating that Andrew Forrest is Aboriginal because he is Not an Aboriginal person 2001:8003:F21F:8C00:21D9:DDCB:F4F3:A539 (talk) 23:58, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Andrew Forrest is NOT ABORIGINAL