Talk:Turf Moor

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081201152821/http://www.burnleyfootballclub.com/page/History/0%2C%2C10413~1031447%2C00.html to http://www.burnleyfootballclub.com/page/History/0%2C%2C10413~1031447%2C00.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: I've recently been working on Burnley Coalfield which has a mention of Bee Hole Colliery. From looking at old maps  it seems that these terraces were created from waste from the neighbouring mine (or possibly mines as several used to be linked together), later topped with concrete. I've found a couple of passing mentions but not a good source. This would be quite interesting info for both articles and surely must have been mentioned somewhere. Any help? TiB chat 18:56, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Not that I'm bitter that nobody even responded to this, but I really think we're going to have to do something about it now. As the article currently stands I can find no explanation of how it could have a capacity to just under 41,000 by 1913, or cram in 54,755 in 1924. The answer is the massive hill they built. If you compare the 1931 OS map to the 1912/13 ones the difference is striking. I did find this charming video of the construction of the current stands , from about the 5 minute mark you can see them digging it all back out. Somebody must have written about it? TiB chat 23:55, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I've used everything from multiple sources (e.g. Inglis, Simpson). Due to construction work on the four stands, the capacity eventually totalled around 41k in 1913. The Brunshaw Road Stand was extended and Turf Moor could hold about 50k people by 1914. In my books/sources, there's no mention about a hill unfortunately (and a quick Google search doesn't find anything either, nor anything in local newspapers). WA8MTWAYC (talk) 08:51, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there is a mention of a hill in the article (but not much more is said/known in the sources): "Spectators had to congregate around the pitch or watch from the hill at the back of Turf Moor, so in 1885, the club built an 800-seater wooden grandstand along the Brunshaw Road side and installed uncovered terraces for 5,000 people at each end of the pitch". WA8MTWAYC (talk) 13:02, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I searched pretty thoroughly myself, and could only find the occasional mention of 'cinders' on message boards. I was hoping an old fashioned, offline source would save the day. If you are aware of any books that you don't have access to, but might be useful, let me know. No library access right now, but I know a Burnley fan or two. Otherwise I think we can do something with the maps directly. I'd not noticed the hill mention, and now you point it out I have a problem with it! The hill (or embankment) I'm talking about did not exist on any map earlier than 1912, do the sources specify that the hill came before the first grandstand? The ground here is one of the very rare flat areas we have. There is a hill, or rather a ridge behind the ground, but it is so far away, you would get a much better view from the top of the north stand at Old Trafford! I think if we use the 1892, 1912, 1931 and possibly the 1960 maps, we can at least talk about its size and development, if not it's composition or source. If you haven't done so already I'd certainly advise to compare them to the text sources, I've found this often shines new light on my understanding of an authors words.TiB chat 18:44, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not a local, so it's quite difficult to access the good sources (or any if you like). I found this (did a very quick scan), however, and maybe there's something in it: http://www.burnley.gov.uk/attachments/app20180140_0_18%200140%20Coal%20Mining%20Risk%20Assessment.pdf. About the hill, Simpson (p. 574) implies it was already there since at least the 1878 Burnley Rovers v Bacup match (so before the first grandstand): "For the record Bacup won the match watched by an estimated crowd of over 3,000, although many more people were able to witness the historic event from the hill at the back of Turf Moor". But first I'll try and dig a bit deeper on the web. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 19:16, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

text: Mike Smith (2014, p. xxiv): "The long, raised cinder banking opposite the Brunshaw Road Stand was formerly home to the tiny Star Stand which covered only half the length of the pitch. The Star Stand was demolished in 1914 (1913) and the cinder-banking raised and extended to cater for larger crowds which increased the ground capacity at Turf Moor in 1914 to 40,000 (50,000). It was not until the mid-1950s before this side of the ground was terraced and roofed which became the famously known among Burnley fans as "The Longside" and is now the James Hargreaves Stand". WA8MTWAYC (talk) 19:28, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a quiet part of the world for Wiki editors! I've almost never worked with anyone local before, so I not surprised. I'm reading the report now and it instantly looks good! I've worked with this before , on pp15-16 I think we already have enough to deal with this! I'd just not understood it fully. I will keep reading.TiB chat 19:49, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe there were quite a few editors in the Burnley area, but most have long retired or are inactive. It's good to see there are still some local editors active:) Great! That PDF you've sent contains some interesting schematics. We're getting there but I'll also keep digging. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 21:17, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The early history section looks much better now with the new additions and I think we've virtually covered everything! WA8MTWAYC (talk) 10:12, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

text: I'm no longer offended by that section apart from "Around this time, the site was composed of a turf patch amid moors." I want it to disappear, but could it be reformulated? It feels like somebody who doesn't know the town's history, was asked where the name comes from, and that was the response. I am still suspicious of the 41,000 capacity claim in 1913. The vast size increase of the embankment that apparently occurred afterward must have easily doubled the capacity, and yet we know that life-threateningly full in 1924 = 54,775, by which time the hill logically must have reached it's maximum size. I suppose we could just be unlucky with the timing of map surveys, and by the time of publication of the 1912/1913 maps (which I guess came from one visit) the embankment was already much larger than shown. Regarding Smith, what do think is meant by "1914 (1913)" and "40,000 (50,000)"? I can only see a couple more issues in the Development section...TiB chat 19:29, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Haha, that's quite possible since Inglis is from Birmingham and a Villa fan! (His work and books are very good though) I removed that sentence, however, since the turf is already mentioned in the first sentence. Maybe we can add something about "Moor" to indirectly explain the stadium's name? I also removed the 41k in 1913 bit. I digged into the attendance figures and the highest home att for a single match in the 1912-13 season was 28k (third round FA Cup v Boro). TM couldn't attract more fans in earlier seasons either. The highest home att in 1913-14 was 50k v Sunderland in the FA Cup. So I don't know where the 41k figure in Simpson's book came from and I couldn't find a mention of it in other sources. The capacity in 1914 was certainly 50k, however, as Simpson and Inglis (and the att. figures) concur. This gem also backs it up:  Regarding Smith, I added the data between the brackets (I could've been a bit clearer there...), because they decided to demolish the Stars Stand in 1913 and to increase the capacity to 50k. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 23:02, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent! I'm really starting to like it now. I did find this , specifying at 52,000 capacity in the 70/71 season. Worth using? The Rothman’s football yearbook, not the message board ofc, I think I can just about make out the page number. Re: moors, I'm thinking about we could open with a description of Burnley's location, mentioning the Pennines (or more specifically South Pennines). Well known for moors. Maybe can just source it to one of the maps? Also I'm thinking of adding more of those to state that the terracing was built on the embankment and that some terracing had been constructed at the Bee Hole End by 1960. But I can't see much else to complain about.TiB chat 00:10, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that capacity number rather applies to the early 1960s. Although when Burnley were flying high in the First Division in 1973-74, there were 40k in attendance against Leeds, of course one of the greatest teams of that era  So the 52k figure might be close but I'm not sure. I agree that the history section might open with a line about TM's location, close to the Pennines. Preferably sourced by a book or article as I'm not sure if FAC reviewers will be lenient with the use of maps (there were already difficulties with the use of a clear YouTube video in one of the recent noms...). I like the idea of giving some info on the BH terrace and the embankment. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 12:30, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Hopefully my latest additions will meet with your approval. I've no reason to think the figure stated in Rothmans is incorrect, the all-seater Cricket Field Stand, must have had a considerably lower capacity than the terrace it replaced. However as that number isn't wildly different from the one we already have, I'm not sure it is a tread worth pulling. I mentioned it because I suspect it might be the highest the official capacity figure ever. Probably more trouble than it is worth, and I have other ideas.TiB chat 19:49, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Longside / Bee Hole terraces. 

message: *The pitch dimensions and surface type could be mentioned the prose instead of just in the infobox, and then move the refs out for a cleaner infobox.
**Done
*"while terraces were added to each end of the ground" seems a little like it's missing a "in [YEAR]" or something?
**It was done in the same year, so I hope the addition of "also" makes it a bit clearer. 
*"The ground comprises" would consider an  here, because stands sometimes change name through sponsorship.
**Done
*"attended a match between Burnley and Bolton Wanderers" if that wasn't a league match was it a cup or friendly?
**Friendly, reworded
*"netted" bit colloquial -> scored?
**Done
*"in 1922, and in 1927," bit clunky repetitive.
**Reworded
The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 12:30, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: ====Early years and construction====
*Not sure "sport" needs to be linked.
**Unlinked
*"of a turf patch amid moors.[4] Horse racing was also held on the fields" bit non-seq herre, you said turf amid moors, then said "fields".
**Replaced "fields" with "area"
*"under rugby rules" union or league?
**The source(s) implies/imply "rugby football". 
*"under rugby rules in the first match under" under ... under.
**Reworded
*"team Burnley F.C., Rovers' successor which had been formed on 18 May 1882,[6] to move from their" bit of a mix of singular/plural/who/which etc.
**Amended
*"a crowd of 12,000 were at" was.
**Amended
*"For the first two years," first two years from which year?
**Removed that part as it works better without
*" In October 1886, Turf Moor became" feels like the sentence is trying to cover too much, split and try to avoid repeat of "visiting".
**Reworded
*"which comprised a grandstand." included?
**Done
*Bit of a mix of whether you use F.C. or not on the first mention of clubs.
**Removed the "F.C." both times (in the body)
*"for the FA Cup quarter-final game" could link the edition of the FA Cup rather than/as well as the generic FA Cup page.
**Done
The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 13:04, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: History

message: *Not sure "sport" needs to be linked.
**Unlinked
*"of a turf patch amid moors.[4] Horse racing was also held on the fields" bit non-seq herre, you said turf amid moors, then said "fields".
**Replaced "fields" with "area"
*"under rugby rules" union or league?
**The source(s) implies/imply "rugby football". 
*"under rugby rules in the first match under" under ... under.
**Reworded
*"team Burnley F.C., Rovers' successor which had been formed on 18 May 1882,[6] to move from their" bit of a mix of singular/plural/who/which etc.
**Amended
*"a crowd of 12,000 were at" was.
**Amended
*"For the first two years," first two years from which year?
**Removed that part as it works better without
*" In October 1886, Turf Moor became" feels like the sentence is trying to cover too much, split and try to avoid repeat of "visiting".
**Reworded
*"which comprised a grandstand." included?
**Done
*Bit of a mix of whether you use F.C. or not on the first mention of clubs.
**Removed the "F.C." both times (in the body)
*"for the FA Cup quarter-final game" could link the edition of the FA Cup rather than/as well as the generic FA Cup page.
**Done
The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 13:04, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Early years and construction

message: *"only FA Cup semi-final in 1922" could link specific FA Cup again here.
**I rather keep the current link as that article gives a clear overview on how many times Turf Moor (and other stadia) has/have hosted semi-finals.
*Same comment applies hereafter!
**Done (and throughout the rest of the article)
*" a home record for Burnley." surely "a record for Turf Moor"?
**Done
*Not sure the link to "hut" is needed or really helpful.  What was its purpose?
**Unlinked
*"y over Stade de Reims" maybe reinforce they were a French team.
**Done
*Pretty sure people will claim not to understand "players' tunnel" so perhaps think of adding an entry to the glossary at the very least and link to it.
**Done, done
*"was killed in a fall through the roof of the ageing Longside Stand, when he" ->"was killed when he fell through the roof of the ageing Longside Stand as he..."?
**Done
The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 13:13, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Development and decline

message: *"the top two divisions by" -> "the top two divisions of English football by"
**Reworded
*"by 1994–95" ->" by the start/end of the 1994–95 season."?
**By the start, added
*" took the stadium's capacity to 22,619" do we know what impact the Taylor report had on the initial reduction in capacity?  I know it was pretty severe for most clubs...
**Turf Moor's capacity actually slightly increased because of the new two-tiered stands (according to Inglis).
*"Burnley's relegation from the Premier League and" add link to appropriate PL season article.
**Done
*Is there any appetite for a schematic of the stadium?  I may be a bit biased but something like this?
**It would certainly be nice and I would like it, but I'm terrible with painting/drawing apps on the pc...
The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 13:29, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Conversion to all-seater

message: *"Panorama of Turf Moor (2011), with t..." perhaps add "taken from the Bob Lord Stand"?
**Done
*"one of the best ratios" bit POV, maybe "highest" instead of "best"...
**Reworded
*"was originally known as the North Stand" you already said that in a previous section.
**Removed
*"against Orient in" were they not called "Leyton Orient" in 1987?
**Two months after the game, they reverted to "Leyton Orient"
*"Burnley defeated their opponents and stayed in the Football..." I think the story here can be explained to help readers understand why a single victory meant they avoided dropping out of the Football League.
**Reworded and expanded the sentence
*"Away supporters are seated in the Cricket Field Stand" you say this again a bit later, do you need it twice?
**Removed the above
*UCFB is mentioned as an acronym but not used.
**Removed
*"taste for the drink" taste for Benedictine?  or Benedictine and hot water?  The next sentence is them adding hot water to it, so it's a little muddled.
**I've replaced "drink" with "liqueur" to hopefully make it clear that's the taste for Benedictine.
The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 13:29, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Structure and facilities

message: *"who scored a penalty kick" I know what you mean but it could be read that all three of them scored a penalty kick between them...
**Reworded
*Link groundshare.
**Done
*"average attendances of 20,000 in the Premier League" is that over a season or several seasons?  Just curious.
**For several seasons
*"poured into" tone issue here.
**Reworded
*Link First Division.
*And Second Division.
**The First and Second Divisions are already linked in the first paragraph of the "Conversion to all-seater".
The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 13:36, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Other uses