Talk:Messianic Judaism/Archive 2

message: I dislike the term "Messianic Judaism" being used exclusively to refer to those who follow a particular Messiah.  Certianly Rabbi Akiva, who  kicked out the followers of the Nararene in favor of his messiah has equal title.  But we are stuck with an imperfect use-mention.  I know of no competing term.  Actually, the term "Christian" is almost as bad, since "Christ" is merely Greek for "Messiah".
:The "competing term" is "Hebrew Christian". Jayjg (talk) 14:53, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Artscroll Siddur?  Read pages 178 through 181 very carefully. Jayjg (talk) 07:30, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: No Good Choices

message: 1) I disagree that you must accept Bar Kokhba as Messiah to stay in the Jewish community.  (Our rejection is what got us kicked out.)
2) I disagree that either the Nazarene or Paul ever intended their followers to abandon Torah.
3) I disagree with the move from Sabbath to Sunday, (good book, btw) and from Passover to Easter.  Let alone Christmas and the rest.
4) I reject the authority of the so-called Ecumenical councils.  I reject the "two natures" formulation of the Chalcedon Council, and have serious problems with usual formulation of the Trinity.  (I really like what Kaballah has to say on it, btw.)
5) I reject dispensationalism and replacement theology.
In short, my disagreements with Christianity go back to within 75 years of my disagreements with Traditional Judaism, and they do so in a manner that consistently prefers Judaism.
:0) Please read strawman.  Really.  
:1) Not accepting Bar Kokhba as messiah was not what got early Christians "kicked out".
:2) Unprovable and irrelevant.
:3) Irrelevant.
:4) Irrelevant.
:5) Irrelevant.
--Jayjg (talk) 14:59, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sigh. Whatever. The Talk: pages are not the place to debate these matters, unless you feel it is somehow relevant to article content. Jayjg (talk) 08:00, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Messianic Judaism vs Christianity

message: My definition of Messianic Judaism?  A Judaism that honors Torah--written, oral, and made flesh.  I'm not alone, btw.  A recent posting for a rabbinic position at one of our (UMJC) congregations stated, "applicants must have a high opinion of Oral Torah."  How many Reformed Rabbis make that cut?
:"Made flesh" is not part of Judaism; it's Christian man-worship. Jayjg (talk) 15:00, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Emerging Definition?

message: I'm not sure that I can accept the charge that I was "attracted" to Messianic Judaism.  I reached a point in my walk where I would have willed it into existance if it were not already there.  What I mean is that I came to the conclusion that the Christian repudiation of the Feasts in particular & Torah in general was unwarranted (and with tragic results), and does not please God, that my only real problem with traditional Judaism is its rejection of the Nazarene (and its hoarding of Torah).  That is, I wanted a Judaism that honored the Nazarene as Messiah.
:Why are you putting this here? Jayjg (talk) 15:02, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Attraction verses Searched Out

message: Yes, our congregations are by and large majority Gentile.  I believe Rashi said the ratio would be about 280,000 to 1.  But just as there are majority Jewish organizations that are refered to as "goyish", the opposite is possible.  In this last statement, you seem to demand that there be no place between Hebrew Christianity (as mentioned above) and traditional Judaism.  That was probably almost true up until the 1960's, but "times, they are a-changin'".
:A majority Gentile movement, following the Christian messiah, using the Christian Bible.  As for "majority Jewish organizations", please read red herring. Jayjg (talk) 15:05, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yea your right anon, times are changing, us Jews should accept that theer is no place for Jews who are "not for Jesus" in today's world.  Give me a break douche.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 09:53, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I wasn't at all anon when I wrote that, and I stand by what I wrote.  What I want to know is how in the world what I wrote has to do with what you have written? And upon what basis do you refer to me with such a disparaging term? NathanZook 04:41, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Facts on the Ground

message: Don't forget--it's "Blessed is Mordichai, cursed is Haman".
NathanZook 04:11, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think you're using the Talk: pages for the purpose they are intended.  What outcome do you hope for based on your comments? Jayjg (talk) 15:06, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Finally

message: * In his Jewish Antiquities, the 'Roman' (Jewish) historian, Flavius Josephus, had this to say about Jesus: "At this time appeared Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one should call him a man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of the people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. He was the Messiah. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us [the Roman-appointed Hasmonean priesthood], condemned him to the cross, those who loved him previously did not cease to do so. For he appeared to them on the third day, living again, just as the divine prophets had spoken of these and countless other wondrous things about him. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him, has not died out." (Flavius Josephus, 'Jewish Antiquities', 18. 63-64.) 129.24.93.219 23:02, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Great.  Quote the traitor Josephus to Jews.  I really appreciate your technical edits, but your edits (of 3/12/05) seem to swing wide of NPOV, and this comment is just...weird.  NathanZook 01:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Josephus is a lousy source on this. It is pretty much universally agreed by scholars that the part about "He was the Messiah", appeared after death, etc., is a later addition by Christians.  Keep in mind that, unlike the Bible, we do not have a large number of ancient copies of Josephus made within a few hundred years after the original was written so that we can compare copies and determine what was a later addition. RickReinckens 07:40, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Famous Declaration of Jewish Support for Jesus as Messiah

message: It is plain from some of your edits and comments that many of you have had little or no contact with our leaders.  I understand that many of you consider what we do to be illegitemate.  I feel the same way about many others, perhaps some of you.  But your non-npov edits do nothing to aid your cause.  While I don't accept responsibility for other's edits, I base mine on first-hand observation.  Please leave your polemics off the main page.
All religous movements have their fringe elements and evolve over time.  This movement is quite young.  You could argue that the formation of the UMJC in the mid 80's represented the formal inception of Messianic Judaism as separate from Hebrew Christianity.  There is still a tremendous debate about what should be called Messianic Judaism.  When I find a link refering to itself as "Messianic Jewish" in some way, I immediately check to see if they consider themselves to be part of Judaism, and their view of Torah.  If their answers aren't "yes" and "high", then I consider them to be Hebrew Christian and confused.  Aren't we to give others the benefit of the doubt?
NathanZook 23:30, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request to persons not in the movement

message: : This section was originally done by an IP address NathanZook
I think this article overlooked the fact that Messianic "Judaism" is used as a method of resolving intermarriage conflicts where one spouse is Jewish (usually a member of the Reform movement), and the other spouse is Christian (church-going).
This allows the church-going spouse to attend a congregation that is acceptable to them, since Messianic worship usually involves singing songs about Jesus.
It also allows the Reform Jewish spouse to attend a congregation that has the word "Jewish" in it's name, therefore making them feel its acceptable, even though they know its wrong.
: If people have no more connection to their faith than to marry outside it, then they don't have any faith at all.  That can change as they grow up, however, (especially if they have kids) and some have suggested that Messianic Jewish congregations could be ideal for such couples.  Frankly, no congregation in the world is going to deal with the fundamental problem: "How can two walk together unless they agree?"  They are going to be a problem for whatever congregation they attend. NathanZook 01:32, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Intermarriage

message: : Nice anonymous edit there, Openinfo.  Please read wiki policies.
There is no Messianic "Judaism" close to Orthodox Judaism.  It is merely a simulation of Judaism (as is the whole Messianic movement).  The entire intent of this movement was created to deceive Jews into converting to Christianity.
: Yep, and we control all of the newspapers, and the banks, and the army.
Actually, there is a group planning this thing.  It is called the MJAA (Messianic "jewish" Alliance of America), and they are funded in excess of $150 million a year by Baptist organizations, in addition to billions of dollars in funding by private and other donations, within the Christian community and their own members. OpenInfo 20:34, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have studied the movement at all, you would know that there is no person or group of people planning this thing.  If it were, we would have our act much, much more together.  A number of late twentieth-century Jews became convinced that the Nazarene is the Messiah.  As they examined scripture, however, they could find no warrant for the abrogation of Torah.  These men observe Torah and Halacha, some so extremely that other Jews are intimidated.  You can call them what you want.  They call themselves Messianic Jews, and their religion Messianic Judaism.  I know full well that Christianity has often defined itself as "not Judaism", and Judaism as "not Christianity" for almost two thousand years.  I disagree.  NathanZook 00:58, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, no.  "Christ" derives from the Greek Kristos.  Messiah doesn't wear a toga, and never did.  That's why I don't call myself a Christian.  My beliefs are no longer derived from a goyish view of Messiah.  NathanZook 00:58, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A couple of important edits

message: read the Messianic Haggadah.  It is a holiday to celebrate and talk about Jesus.  It is unrelated to the Jewish holiday of Pesach.
: Which one?  I know one of the guys that did one of those about twenty years ago.  He's now embarassed by it.  (He's used the Carlibacher Haggadah the last three years.)  Of course, at the time, he was Hebrew Christian.  NathanZook 01:22, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian "Passover"