Talk:Battle of Pliska

message: See below.  Why does this section even exist here?  It adds almost nothing to the discussion and reads like another author just inserted into the article.  Surely this can be said if needed in two or three sentences?  I think that the whole section can be deleted?
"The devastating rising of the Dog"
The sky above Pliska (43°23′N, 27°8′E) at dawn, 03:06 a.m., on July 23, 811. Half of the Sun's disk has appeared above the horizon from the east. The Dog Star (Sirius of the constellation Canis Major (Big Dog)) has risen 2 minutes before the Sun (heliacal rising). The moon is late in its last quarter in the constellation Cancer (Crab).
The sky above Pliska ( [show location on an interactive map] 43°23′N, 27°8′E) at dawn, 03:06 a.m., on July 23, 811. Half of the Sun's disk has appeared above the horizon from the east. The Dog Star (Sirius of the constellation Canis Major (Big Dog)) has risen 2 minutes before the Sun (heliacal rising). The moon is late in its last quarter in the constellation Cancer (Crab).
The expedition of Nicephorus coincided with the heliacal rising of Sirius, the Dog Star; this occurs in the period of the year when Sirius first becomes visible above the eastern horizon at dawn, after a period when it was hidden below the horizon or when it was just above the horizon but hidden by the brightness of the sun. The period of the heliacal rising of the Dog Star determines the Dog Days, or as the Romans called them, caniculares dies (days of the dogs). For the ancient Egyptians, Sirius appeared just before the season of the Nile's flooding, so they used the star as a "watchdog" for that event on which they based the Egyptian calendar. For the ancient Greeks, the appearance of Sirius heralded the hot and dry summer. Due to its brightness, Sirius would have been noted to twinkle more in the unsettled weather conditions of early summer. To Greek observers, this signified certain emanations which caused its malign influence. People suffering its effects were said to be 'star-struck' (astroboletos). This popular belief carried on to the Middle Ages, when the Dog Days were considered to be an evil time "when the seas boiled, wine turned sour, dogs grew mad, and all creatures became languid, causing to man burning fevers, hysterics, and phrensies" [13] The traditional ancient timing of the Dog Days is the 40 days beginning July 3 and ending August 11; however, at present, due to the precession of the equinoxes, the heliacal rising of Sirius has shifted with 37 days towards the end of the year so that it begins on August 9 and ends on September 17.
Like most medieval writers, Theophanes was a highly superstitious and religious person, and he invoked heavenly mystic phenomena to explain and predict important events. Thus, upon mentioning the date July 20, Theophanes implies that the star configuration on this date was very unfavorable for Nicephorus, as if it was a bad omen signifying a great misfortune. Such is the most probable interpretation of his words "it was the devastating rising of the Dog" that caused "reckless bravery of the impertinent coward [Nicephorus]" and made him behave like a madman, frequently shouting challenges and then realizing that some supernatural power, "God or his enemy" (that is, the devil), pulled him against his will.[14]--Mconfoy (talk) 05:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I took care of this. The text now flow naturally and logically. Some of the intervening explanatory material went down in footnotes. The legend in the picture was made shorter in the same manner. It remains to repair the next section (your next comment). --Lantonov (talk) 12:07, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "The devastating rising of the Dog"

message: See below.  Once again, this level of information comes out of nowhere.  This is something that can be stated in a few sentences by just listing the estimated times and referencing method used to do this.  No one could possibly care reading the article about inverse relationships between the length and the speed trying to understand this campaign unless perhaps they are wargamming this.  It really distracts from enjoyment and understanding of the campaign and should not be included except as a reference.
The crossing, difficult for such a multitudinous army, would inevitably occupy some time. Approximate distances and timing are listed in the opposite table. About distances, the following must be borne in mind: while distances in the passes are relatively accurate because they were measured by following the contour of the pass, total distances are underestimated by 10-30 km because level terrain was measured on a straight line, since it is impossible to guess the exact route on level ground. For the timings, one must consider a march of 25 km to be both long and tiring for men and horses, and although this rate could have been maintained as an average in some cases, terrain, weather and the quality of the roads, tracks or paths used by the army will all have played a role, so that very considerable variations must have been usual. The average length of a day's march for infantry or combined forces was probably rarely more than 19-23 km, which has been an average for most infantry forces throughout recorded history; and this figure would more often than not be reduced if very large numbers, which had to be kept together, were involved. The average can be increased when no accompanying baggage train is present, and increased yet again for forced marches, although there is an inverse relationship between the length and speed of such marches and the loss of manpower and animals through exhaustion. The speed at which large forces can move varies very considerably according to the terrain: anything between 11-13 km and 18-20 km per day. Cavalry by themselves can cover distances of up to 60-80 km, provided the horses are regularly rested and well nourished and watered. Small units can move much faster than large divisions: distances of up to 30 km per day for infantry can be attained. The average marching speeds for infantry are 4.8 km per hour on even terrain, 4 km on uneven or broken/hilly ground.[16] From the above mentioned, and taking into account that the Byzantine army was very large, one can take the lower estimate (18 km per day) as the rate of march, reducing it further to 11 km per day for march in a pass. Timings in the table are calculated on the above assumption; as seen, the march from Marcelae to Pliska could have taken 5.5 to 9 days. This defines the period of departing from Marcelae as July 11 to July 14, according to [17], or July 2 to July 5, according to [18].Mconfoy (talk) 05:40, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the above criticism. Will consider putting the estimates of timings for the march in a footnote (reference) and also fusing the section "devastating rising of the Dog" in the text of another section and somewhat shortening it. Meanwhile, I provided the requested citations. Answer to the question above: I think that this text helps the article as a guidance to the possible route of the Byzantine Army. With it, I tried to outline the grounds for the many hypotheses about the places of battles and movement of troops. It should refer to the march to Pliska (Pliska? -- because there are hypotheses and debates that the sacked town was not Pliska but maybe Preslav or even some town to the south of the Balkans such as Avli) as well as to the march from Pliska (?) and the possible place of the final battle. Some even put the battle in the Iskar Pass which is far to the east and close to Serdica (Sofia). Therefore, knowledge of geography and distances is essential for readers to make their own mind of what probably happened.Since Theophanes, Scriptor Incertus, and Zonaras went to Wikisource, and most of the other old texts will go to Wikisource, too, another task will be a large reference restructuring and repair. These issues were put above in the templates as cleanup tasks. --Lantonov (talk) 06:36, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Crossing times -- how does this detail of information help the article?

message: I am looking for a map of the battle with Balkan passes including also Kotel and Rish passes, and Pliska. If someone has it, please help. Lantonov 06:23, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have asked Kandi from the BG Wikipedia to make the map of the battle and he agreed to try: ) --Gligan (talk) 21:10, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, it will improve the article greatly. I translated some primary sources (Theophanes, Anonymous Vaticanus) and put them in the footnotes in order to compare, discuss, and find place of this material in the body of the article. I intend to complete primary sourcing with Michael the Syrian, Skylitzes, and Zonaras. After this is done, those sources will be transferred to Wikisource. Lantonov (talk) 07:36, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks for the 2 maps, Kandi and Gligan. This is a big improvement. I promise to fill up details on the events in the maps, so that the reader spends time on looking in the maps and imagining the theatre of events. Lantonov (talk) 06:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Map

message: Just a few sources for later reference. Here's the primary source bits for the death of Nikephoros:
*Joannes Zonaras, Epitome historiarum  
**[02192] 
**[02193] 
*Theophanes the Confessor, Chronographia 
**[11067]  [...]
**[11074] 
**[11075] 
**[11076] 
For later discussion. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of these were offices in the Byzantine hierarchy. Droungarios is a military rank, for instance. The passage about the "effeminate men" who used to "sleep with" the emperor I would translate as "the eunuchs in his entourage". As far as I understand, Byzantine emperors had parakoimomenous, a small number of top-confidence servants who lived close to the emperor day and night, and they were often eunuchs. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:25, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Thanks. I want to give a link to the peer review, here  Lantonov (talk) 10:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

text: A Spatharios was a medium-ranked military officer, that much I remember. Patrikios was, I think, a political rank of honour, nominally corresponding to an ancient Roman "senator". The Eparchos patrikios sounds like some special role among the senators, but I'd have to investigate that further. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:14, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some sources 

message: Before doing that at least make a discussion. You are removing content, pictures, categories, links to other wikipedias and ruining the article. If you think that there is anything copied from other work, remove only that part. --Gligan (talk) 15:55, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Mhmmm now I read the discussion you had with Lantonov and if you give me the original Bulgarian text, I will tell you whether that is a direct translation. --Gligan (talk) 15:55, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent removal 

message: Substituted at 09:13, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment