Talk:Morocco/Archive 2

message: It can be argued that the last 50 years in Morocco’s history have been the most relevant as it has become an independent country and has had a belligerent foreign policy with its neighbours, Algeria and western Sahara. 
How come the only link to the green march is in the Geography section and is not mentioned in the history??? How come there is no link AT ALL in the article to the sand war.
How come that the hundreds of victims of 30 years of repression are written of with a couple of lines: " Hassan II became King of Morocco on March 3, 1961. His rule would be marked by political unrest, and the ruthless government response earned the period the name "the years of lead"." 
If you visit the article on Hassan II you get a little bit more of information, but why is this information not included in the main article about Morocco??? Is it only of interest to the personality of Hassan II??
Why is there no mention of the reasons for this political unrest, and the civil and student protest marches that were brutally dissolved by police? Why is there no mention of the extensive use of torture against dissidents? Why isn't there a reference to Tazmarat and other concentration camps to which these where sent?
One aspect of Moroccan torture is that the King is "the giver of light" so many of those imprisoned are submitted to entire years at a time without any light...
Even important aspects of its pre-independence history are ignored. From the ethnological map you can see that Morocco is mainly divided by Arabs in the Plains and Berebers in the mountains. For hundreds of years tribal relations prevailed and when there was disagreement conflict would arise, with a deadlock, as the mountains proved superb defence positions. It was only until the French arrived and set up an effective road system to move troops around, that the country could finally be ruled under one unified leadership.
Why is there no mention about this??
All the questions I pose are discussed at length in Gilles Perrault Notre ami le roi . 
Other books are: Stolen Lives: Twenty Years in a Desert Jail 
(Talk Miramax Books, April 2001) 
And Oufkir, un destin marocain (Calmann-Lévy) published by Stephen Smith, formerly African correspondent for the French newspaper Libération and now working for the prestigious daily Le Monde. http://www.nd.edu/~romlang/news/oufkir.html
---------
Conclusion
The rule under Hassan II was oppressive and repressive, he killed thousands for various reasons, and several attempts where made on his life, mainly from his own military. He started wars with Algeria when they where weak, just after their independence. He took over Western Sahara when Spain was weak, creating a conflict that is raging today.
That this dark history of modern Morocco is dispatched in the article with a couple of passing comments is shameful. We may have an excellent encyclopaedic article, but it is useless if it says nothing.
There are thousands of words to be written, but it seems that Hassan II has done a good job and the truth is buried and forgotten to the majority of its people and the international community. What will happen if I add this information to the page?? 
:This is only supposed to be a general overview of the country, more detail on the history is in History of Morocco --Astrokey44 02:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I didnt find History of Morocco initially, but it still does not address most of the issues that I raise. Furthermore it is mainly drawn for US congres archives and I will proceed to make similar criticism there. I also question that an overview of the country, does not centre on it recent / modern history. Specially from the point it gained its  independence.Cgonzalezdelhoyo 11:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gonzalez. We appreciate your concern and find it reasonable. However, if you find it teh way it is than you can help instead of criticizing editors for not being able to include the info. Please work on it. Cheers -- Szvest 11:05, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, I didnt mean to critize the editors, rather point what I consider big gaps in the articles. I will try to work on the article though I am a newbie and tend to restrict myself to the talk pages. It is the first time I am invited to contribute and appreciate it. Thank youCgonzalezdelhoyo 00:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This articles is POV because it has hardly any information on Morocco's history since independence

message: Is there a source for "Its second largest source of income is from nationals living abroad who transfer money to relatives living in Morocco." ? 69.249.173.144 02:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here you go. The article is in French and it reads Les sommes transférées par les travailleurs émigrés vers leur pays d’origine sont énormes. Elles représentent la deuxième source de financement externe des pays en voie de développement, après les investissements directs étrangers...Les sommes transférées par les travailleurs émigrés vers leur pays d’origine sont énormes. Elles représentent la deuxième source de financement externe des pays en voie de développement, après les investissements directs étrangers.. Source: Le Journal Hebdo. Cheers -- Szvest 11:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources for nationals living abroad

message: Imazighen, no one is doubting of the importance of Berber culture in Morocco, but your last edits amount to POV-pushing, to say the less. They are far from neutral and are factually wrong. You are also in breach of the 3RR rules and I find your behaviour very disruptive indeed. Please reconsider your position and discuss any new edits. Regards, E  Asterion u talking to me? 19:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: She/he's been already warned. -- Szvest 23:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tamazight 

message: User:Amazigh Man. It's become known to you by many users and me as well that such material is not official and not sourced. You've already been warned many times and subsequently blocked. Please refrain from doing it again or else you will be blocked for a longer time as this is considered Vandalism. -- Szvest 17:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non official and non sourced materials 

message: According to WikiCharts — Top 100 — 08/200, this article is the 18th most visited site in Wikipedia w/ ± 28000 hits. -- Szvest 21:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikicharts

message: Inappropriate I have no idea how this happened, but I missed out on how someone inserted this location map for Morocco in this article without consensus from the two people disputing it (Arre and myself.) I've changed it back to the map that has Morocco only with its neighbors in gray, like every other location map of every other territory (except possibly Kashmir between India and Pakistan.) Discuss if you'd like; I'll be watching this page again. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 20:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want an idea when was that heppened you can just refer to the discussion above. Please do not make changes to stuff that had  already been agreed upon. If you have a particular comment discuss it above and wait for the comments of the contributors who worked hard to reach such an agreement. -- Szvest 11:53, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Justin, I believe that the current map transmits well the idea of the dispute. Anyone reading the article would understand clearly. There was a discussion about this a while ago indeed. Regards, E  Asterion u talking to me? 17:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Inconsistent There was not consensus. The two Moroccan editors liked it and the two non-Moroccan editors that had objections did not agree to it; that's hardly consensus. Again, I don't know how or why this happened (I just happened to check this page yesterday and it was off my watchlist for some reason), but this is unacceptable. This article is about the entity of Morocco which begins at the upper Atlas and ends at the Sahara. See also the vote at Western Sahara. The inconsistency is obvious if you check the Israel map; the Palestinian territories aren't striped. No state other than Morocco has recognized Moroccan sovereignty over the Sahara, and striping it is not consensus; it is legitimizing their position. Furhtermore, it is inaccurate and deceptive, since Morocco does not administer the entirety of the territory. Needless to say, all of the objections I listed above stand. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 20:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Justin. It is not a case between 2 moroccans and other 2 non-moroccans. It is a concensus reached by the implication of almost every editor of this page. If you persist than the right way is to request a new vote so your voice can be heard. Reverting it is not the proper way. Szvest 10:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Consensus What I'm saying is, there was never consensus; there was agreement between the people who already agreed and some people who were otherwise unassociated with the discussion. I'll put it up on RfC if you'd like. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 13:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. Put it on RfC. That's the proper way as well. Meanwhile, and waiting for the comments, i am reverting the map back until the issue is decided. Cheers -- Szvest 13:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: ====Endorsement by Justin (koavf)====
*It is consistent with the Israeli example. The Sahara is under military occupation, and no state recognizes Moroccan sovereignty over the Sahara. Will we go to the Israel article, and amend that map with stripes in the Palestinian territories, too? 
*It is consistent with the Syria example. Just because a state claims another state, or publishes maps of their own with the latter included, that doesn't mean we should. The map at Syria does not include Lebanon as a part of Greater Syria, and it didn't even when the Syrian military was occupying it. Why should this be any different?
*This is the map used by third party, neutral sources. For instance, the CIA World Factbook, which does not recognize the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, nor the Moroccan claims to the Sahara; or the United Nations, whose maps do not include the Sahara, striped or otherwise as "Morocco."
*This article is about Morocco, not anything else, so the map should show Morocco, which ends before the Sahara starts. Morocco is a geographic and political entity that is bordered by Algeria, the Atlantic Ocean, and Western Sahara.
*This article is not about Greater Morocco. Should we also put stripes on Mauritania, the Spanish enclaves, parts of Algeria, part of Senegal, part of Mali, etc. just because they are or have been claimed by Morocco?
*It deceives the user. Morocco claims, but does not administer the entirety of Western Sahara. This map implies that it does administer the entirety, and as such is misleading.
*There is simply no need. The article discusses at length the dispute, and there are several articles that explain it, if the user is inclined to read more.-Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 15:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Arguments in favor of [[:Image:LocationMorocco.png]]

message: *It is consistent with the Israeli example. The Sahara is under military occupation, and no state recognizes Moroccan sovereignty over the Sahara. Will we go to the Israel article, and amend that map with stripes in the Palestinian territories, too? 
*It is consistent with the Syria example. Just because a state claims another state, or publishes maps of their own with the latter included, that doesn't mean we should. The map at Syria does not include Lebanon as a part of Greater Syria, and it didn't even when the Syrian military was occupying it. Why should this be any different?
*This is the map used by third party, neutral sources. For instance, the CIA World Factbook, which does not recognize the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, nor the Moroccan claims to the Sahara; or the United Nations, whose maps do not include the Sahara, striped or otherwise as "Morocco."
*This article is about Morocco, not anything else, so the map should show Morocco, which ends before the Sahara starts. Morocco is a geographic and political entity that is bordered by Algeria, the Atlantic Ocean, and Western Sahara.
*This article is not about Greater Morocco. Should we also put stripes on Mauritania, the Spanish enclaves, parts of Algeria, part of Senegal, part of Mali, etc. just because they are or have been claimed by Morocco?
*It deceives the user. Morocco claims, but does not administer the entirety of Western Sahara. This map implies that it does administer the entirety, and as such is misleading.
*There is simply no need. The article discusses at length the dispute, and there are several articles that explain it, if the user is inclined to read more.-Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 15:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Endorsement by [[User:Koavf|Justin (koavf)]]

message: * I fully agree with Justin/Koavf. This page is not about Western Sahara, and it is not included in the surface area, population etc of Morocco. To include it on the main article map would therefore be completely contradictory. Also, as Justin exemplifies, it is in breach of virtually all established examples from other cases, on Wikipedia and outside it. This is an article about Morocco, as internationally understood and recognized, and Western Sahara has its own article. Let`s keep it that way.
*Still, I do think the striped map can be included further down in the article, in a section that deals with the Western Sahara issue, to show what areas Morocco claims in addition to its recognized territory. But not as the main map, since all other main maps show recognized territory only, with no regard for whatever irredentist policies their governments may pursue. Arre 13:04, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Endorsement by [[User:Arre|Arre]]

message: * I'm sorry to say that I can't see any valid reason to include the territory of the Western Sahara in any way that might involve a endorsement of the sovereignty of Morocco over such a territory. My general understanding is that the map in the country box should reflect the borders of the country as internationally recognized. At this very moment, no country in the world recognizes the sovereignty of Morocco over the Western Sahara, so that why should it be endorsed somehow in the map?
* If the argument is just the claim, I can't see any other example in this wikipedia. Let's take Venezuela and its claim over the so-called Guayana Esequiva. The map in the country box in the Venezuela article doesn't show the territory covered by such a claim.
* If the argument is the de facto situation, the map is again wrong (since it should include only the territories to the west of the Moroccan Wall). Anyway, I don't see in the Israel map that it includes the West Bank.
* All these arguments have nothing to do with how fair the arguments of Morocco or the Frente Polisario are. Simply, from a neutral point of view I can't see why wikipedia should somehow endorse the Moroccan claim to a territory that is not internationally recognized (I'm not saying that a map showing this claim shoulld not be included in the article, but I regard as not according to the wikipedia principles to include it in the country box). Best regards --Ecemaml 17:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Endorsement by [[User:Ecemaml|Ecemaml]]

message: *It shows that there is a dispute about the striped area. On reading the article, I understand that the Moroccan state considers (part of) the Western Sahara to be part of Morocco. That is the official Moroccan POV. The POV of the international community seems to be that the Western Sahara is not part of Morocco. Wikipedia needs to give both POV's, both in the text and in the illustration. Therefor, I prefer the striped map. I would just suggest one alteration : change the color of the stripes from green to another color, not related to Morocco nor to the other parties in the conflict.--LucVerhelst 17:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Endorsement by [[User:LucVerhelst|LucVerhelst]]

message: *The claims made against this option are based on POVs. It is claimed in the arguments above that the stiped area belongs to Western Sahara. I must remind you that the striped map reflects the total NPOV policy of wikipedia. Wikipedia does not claim anything and the striped map reflects a situation by representing a disputed territory where Morocco governs most of it. Removing the stripes would only mean removing the right of one side. It is a disputed territory and no single side should force wikipedia to represent its claims. It is also said that Morocco borders the Western Sahara! Who says that? There are other POVs saying that Morocco borders Mauritania!
*Justin brought an example of Syria. I must say that Morocco governs most of the territory while Syria was not administering Lebanon.
*The UN and the CIA factbook are not an encyclopaedia. They represent and reflect political agendas. Wikipedia is based on NPOV.
*There's a large footnote explaining the situation. The reader is not being decieved.
*The analogy w/ Israel and Palestine is false. Most Saharawis carry Moroccan passports.-- Szvest 13:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Endorsement by [[User:FayssalF|Szvest]]

message: The striped map was created back in May 2006, in reaction to some complaints from Morrocan users, in particular User:wikima. I created because I think it works well enough, and I'm pretty sure I've seen similar maps used before. To be honest, the comparisons with other situations (Palestine/Syria etc.) are a little tenuous - all these, and the WS situation, are unique. In the end I don't really have an opinion on this issue; most users ought to be sensible enough to read the article, which explains the situation in detail; a map is needed and, as far as I can tell, this is one of those situations where some people will always be unhappy. Robdurbar 18:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Further Comments

message: Taken from the 2006 Report of the Secretary-General to the Security Council on the situation concerning Western Sahara (accessible through here (pg. 10):
:"...such wording would imply recognition of Moroccan sovereignty over Western Sahara, which was out of the question as long as no States Member of the United Nations had recognized that sovereignty."
The issue is that no country in the world recognized the sovereignty of Morocco over the territory of Western Sahara. Therefore, the Morocco's internationally recognized borders to the South are the ones between Morocco and the Western Sahara. Claim or occuppation (regardless of how fair the arguments are) are not a valid argument to include a stripped land in the country box (I think). Best regards --Ecemaml 17:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Recognition : What do you mean with "No country recognized...". What a country must do to be considered as recognizing the Moroccan sovereignty over WS?. Is it enough that the head of state makes a statement supporting the right of Morocco in its southern provinces? if Yes, then, never say "No country recognized ..". Senegal, Jordan, Gabon, Camerun, Kuwait, Yemen, Saudi arabia, ..., have in numerous occasions made their support to Morocco in the conflict.--A Jalil 23:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

text: That was odd In case anyone is wondering "Yasser" has not edited anything other than this talk page. My guess would be he's a sock puppet for pushing a pro-Moroccan agenda. Note also that "A Jalil" has also edited nothing other than this talk page. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 16:33, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can refer to Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser if you really doubt it. Include my account in the request. -- Szvest 17:35, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem either but I have to point out I consider my edits on wikipedia to be NPOV. In real life you could even argue my position could be seen as pro-RASD, I guess. In any case, if you want this cleared up, just go ahead (you may have the request turned down, as I do not see any disruption going on and checkuser is not for fishing. Cheers, --Asteriontalk 17:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks As long as Yasser and Jalil stick to ranting on this page (in particular Yasser), they're altogether harmless. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 18:45, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Nice! Anti-American, anti-UN, anti-Sahrawi bigotry won't get you far, especially since you provided no cogent arguments and a string of propaganda unrelated to the actual discussion at hand. That doesn't help anyone. I've asked Sahrawis and, strangely enough, none of them want to live in the desert with a string of landmines and foreign troops in their homeland. And get this: they would prefer to be independent! Ain't that a hoot? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 00:42, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Maybe you're confused You're not addressing the fundamental issue here, Yasser: Wikipedia is not a forum for your political screeds, regurgitated Moroccan propaganda, or political slander. If you have nothing to add to the conversation, don't post anything. It's also mildly racist and hugely bigoted to assume that if you ask an Arab whether or not he hates Israel he'll say yes. (It's also naive and bigoted to assume he won't say that he hates Jews.) If you want to debate the relative merits of the UN, this is not an appropriate forum. I am American. I would not agree to have California stripped from America's map. America also actually administers California and was decolonized from European powers centuries prior. There are a myriad of reasons why the analogy breaks down, and moreover, is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 17:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If Yasser is "Maybe you are confused", you koavf are surely confused. You take me (Jalil) for Yasser, and maybe Yasser for Szvest, and so on. You can check for you convenience that we are different users, and I can even add, we are thousands of kms away from eath other. You complain that we have only edited in this page, and at the same time you don't want us editing in other pages, as if Wikipedia is your dady's ranch. You don't stand reading Moroccan positions but are completely at ease without any shame  defending Polisario propaganda that was revoked by Ex-Polisario leaders themselves(Hadrami, Barzani, Hakim, ...). Yasser lives in Layoune, and is Sahrawi, and knows what it is about. And you, in the USA, got to the conclusion that Sahrawis want independence because you asked, and some members of Polisario told you so. What a logical deduction?. Instead of sticking to the issues, you start getting personal: "mildly racist", "hugely bigoted", "naive and bigoted". If the USA administers California, Morocco also administers WS. You have every right to take the stand you want on any issue, but calling opponent positions as "screeds", and "slander" is a sign one did not get an education of tolerance and respect. We can discuss these issues for decades, but as Yasser and others have said: WS is and will always be Moroccan, regardless of the means to achieve that. You will change nothing to the situation. But you can comfort yourself with what you edit here in Wikipedia.--A Jalil 07:00, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What? What are you talking about? I never said anything about Fayssal possibly being you or Yasser; you're just making up lies. I'm not complaining that you've only edited this page per se but that you are apparently on Wikipedia for the sole purpose of pushing a pro-Moroccan agenda, and refuse to acknowledge cogent arguments (see below.) That's not helpful editing. I never said that I don't want you editing other pages, either. Again, that's some bilious lie. If you have any arguments that I've brought to bear that are untrue, tell me. I've actually given you sources, you've given me nothing in return. Prove to me that some claim I'm making isn't factual; don't just tell me I'm wrong. Where does that get us? If you can't offer evidence and instead only have bombastic invectives (such as the one above), then why are you on Wikipedia? Just to pick fights? I didn't just ask members of Polisario; I asked Sahrawis. Also, the United Nations visiting mission to Spanish Sahara found the same. But they're just "cooked" liars without any credibility that are secretly run by Algeria, right? Just like everyone else on earth? These hate-filled invectives are pointless. Either discuss issues like a grown human being or go somewhere else; I'm sure there's a message board out there waiting for these kinds of antics. Notice the sheer hypocrisy of saying I "did not get an education of tolerance and respect" (whatever that means) and then writing such vile trash about me in the same post. You say "you have every right to take the stand you want on any issue" and then post a-historical and untrue propaganda like "WS is and will always be Moroccan, regardless of the means to achieve that?" I think you're confused, too. Also, could those means include dropping napalm on fleeing women and children? What about occupying other people's land and strewing it with land mines? This is atrocious. And you aren't going to dissuade me from a cause in which I believe by mocking me - that is the true test of whether or not someone got an education of tolerance and respect. Feel free to take your hypocrisy and slander elsewhere. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 12:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Further comments: what UN says

message: :Thank you, C. Parham, for pointing that out. This debate has gone political, and both sides needs to see that it isn't leading anywhere, and that our different views of politics should not be related to map presentation on Wikipedia.'
:What we should consider is: (a) Wikipedia standards (Koavf names a few similar map disputes). (b) Global standards (Mr. Parham's suggestion to look up Britannica and textbooks). Little else should matter, and certainly not Tindouf population statistics -- it's all about the map here. Let me try to be systematic:
:*In case (a), there is as far as I can see no single case where a CLAIMED but NOT CONTROLLED territory has been included, striped or otherwise, in a main country map on Wikipedia, on the basis of the claim only. See that example of Venezuela, for example, or Lebanon's claim on the Shebaa Farms, Chinese claims to Taiwan, Taiwanese claims to China, or Japan's claims to the Kuriles -- renamed the "Northern Territories" by Japan, no comment on that... (Since this is the situation of the Polisario-held areas of Western Sahara, which are claimed but not controlled by Morocco, whatever the outcome of this debate, they should not be included in the map.) Neither are, for more obvious reasons, areas that are NON-CLAIMED but CONTROLLED (i.e. Iraq won't show up on US maps). And finally, not even CLAIMED and de facto-CONTROLLED, but unrecognized, areas are included in the maps (such as Golan Heights, formally annexed & 100% controlled by Israel, as a province within the country, but w. no international recognition). This last one is the case most closely resembling Western Sahara. The only difference is that while Golan is internationally seen as part of Syria, WS is seen as an entity of still-undetermined status. Still, the world's recognition of Western Sahara as a legally separate territory with recognized borders (albeit without a sovereign ruler) is just as firm as its recognition of Syria as a legally separate territory with recognized borders (with sovereignty, thus an independent country). So the presence or lack of a government doesn't affect the argument that the territorial unit itself, and its non-inclusion in surrounding countries, is legally recognized.
:*In case (b), map collections, textbooks, formal UN and third-party government maps, encyclopedias and other sources overwhelmingly show Western Sahara as a wholly separate territory, though sometimes labeled as "WESTERN SAHARA (Morocco)" or "WESTERN SAHARA (occupied b. Morocco)" or something similar. It is extremely rare that the territory is included within Morocco; sometimes the border is striped, but that is the case in all situations of border dispute. Meaning, the borders between Syria, Israel and the Golan Heights are also striped, as is often the border between Saudi Arabia and Yemen, a less well-known dispute - etc - without this amounting to a denial of recognition of either territory's existence. The exceptions to this are of course Moroccan maps, and maybe most but certainly not all Arab maps. As for English-language and global, all-langauges material (which I believe is the source material sought by this Wikipedia) it will, I repeat, overwhelmingly show W. Sahara as a separate territory.
:So, when looking to Wikipedia standards and the standards of reputable source material globally, this is a no-brainer. As I mentioned above, I still support including the map (thanks to Robdurbar for creating it) further down in the article, where the issue of Morocco's borders and claims on Western Sahara is properly dealt with. But it should not be squeezed into the main map, in contradition of all established norms, just to push the POV that Morocco has "liberated" Western Sahara, as someone here put it.  Arre 14:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Arre. Well said. I agree w/ you that the discussion was getting a bit political. I appreciate your effort trying to limit the scope of the discussion. -- Szvest 14:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Reading Arre's contribution one would think the map included is the one used by the Moroccan state where WS is an integral part of Morocco without any dashes or distinguishing colors. Again the comparision between WS and Israel/Syria/Golan etc. is put forward to make the reader believe that WS is occupied. Do we need to recall the difference between the disputed and the occupied?. The stripped map shows clearly WS as a territory where the sovereignty is disputed, but it is controlled by Morocco, and Morocco is 50% right, pending the final solution that would either confirm its claim or lead to WS being independent. Showing a map where Morocco has nothing to do with WS, is deciding the outcome of the conflict in favor of one of the parts of the conflict. Again, I draw your attention that the neutral (stripped) map is not the one used by Morocco, and does not represent the Moroccan POV.--A Jalil 06:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Occupation Yes, the area is occupied, as simple common sense and the UN will tell you (see below for my response for UN documents detailing occupation.) There is no inherent difference between disputing and occupying a territory. In fact, common sense would again demand that occupied territories are a subset of disputed ones, if anything, and the two are not mutually exclusive. I have no idea what "Morocco is 50% right" is supposed to mean. Showing a map where Morocco has nothing to do with WS, is not deciding the outcome of the conflict in favor of one of the parts of the conflict; it is showing what the international community defines as "Morocco," as one would expect in an article on "Morocco." Now, if the article was entitled "Morocco and occupied territories," I would be all for this map. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 16:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Remember: its about the map only