Talk:Views of Lyndon LaRouche and the LaRouche movement/Archive 3

message: Thanks to Chip Berlet for posting the photostats of the New Solidarity article on his website, but what it reveals is that his edited version of the quotes is unacceptably misleading. Visitors to this talk page should take the trouble to compare the photostats  
 to the quotes he posted in the article .
For example, the omitting of the sentences "The impact of this pattern of developments on Britain's youth gangs of violence-prone football fans is predictable. One can read their general line of thinking in advance." By omitting these lines and cutting to "Since the idea of of touching the person of the carrier is abhorrent," Berlet makes it look like LaRouche is expressing his own views, instead of views that LaRouche is attributing to Britain's youth gangs. This sort of trick is sadly typical of the stuff on Berlet's site. Weed Harper 01:55, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean the article titled "Teenage Gangs' Lynching of Gays is Foreseen Soon." Gee, seeing the whole thing is even worse than the excerpts. Can you show us the part where LaRouche condemns violence against gays? -Willmcw 02:12, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Another Cook job

message: Calling the LaRouchite approach to AIDS a "Public Health" approach contradicts the factual record. Prop. 64 had no support in the actual Public Health community:
Opponents of Proposition 64 included: 
Organizations
California Medical Association 
California Nurses Association 
California Hospital Association 
California Public Health Officers Association 
American Practitioners In Infection Control 
California Psychiatric Association
League of Women Voters 
National Organization for Women 
San Francisco Medical Society 
Alameda County Labor Council 
Service Employees International Union-State Council 
California Labor Federation AFL-CIO
Elected Officials:
U.S. Senator Alan Cranston 
U.S. Senator Pete Wilson 
Lt. Governor Leo McCarthy 
Congressman Ed Zschau 
Congresswoman Sala Burton 
Congresswoman Barbara Boxer 
Congressman Tony Coelho
Congressman Vic Fazio 
Congressman George Miller 
Congressman Don Edwards 
Congressman Henry Waxman 
Congressman Doug Bosco
Mayor Tom Bradley, Los Angeles 
Mayor Dianne Feinstein, San Francisco 
Mayor Lionel Wilson, Oakland
Mayor Tom McEnery, San Jose 
Mayor Anne Rudin, Sacramento 
Mayor Everett Souza, Santa Clara 
Mayor Carole Singer Peltz, Sausalito 
Mayor Gus Newport, Berkeley
Vice Mayor Susan Hammer, San Jose
Added Comments:
The Illinois Tribunal was the official publication of the LaRouche organization in the state of Illinois.  It is misleading to say that it was just published by LaRouche supporters.  It is a way to distance the quote from the organization.
If we are going to keep cutting the most inflamatory quote from LaRouche about assaulting gay people, then we need to balance the attempt to soften what Prop 64 was about with this quote from the S.F. Examiner posted above:
:"In its exclusionary sweep, the proposal exceeds anything ever contemplated in this country, in respect to a disease that is non-communicable by any casual contact (by agreement of the leading experts in medicine and research). The state ballot proposal, for which the tenacious LaRouche people collected some 630,000 signatures, seems aimed at sealing off people with the AIDS virus (including all those who do not have the AIDS sickness) from the rest of society.
:"Hence we see a chilling vision of police-state methods. Health officials would be empowered to scoop up and test anyone even suspected of carrying the virus. Those carrying it could be made to stay in their homes, or in special centers. School-age children with the virus would be barred from school, and adults would be excluded from jobs as school teachers, administrators or commercial food handlers. Their travel might be restricted. Quarantining on this scale could require a sizable use of police power.
:"Mayor Feinstein rightly calls the proposition 'misguided and hysterical,' especially since it 'flies in the face of all sound medical opinion.'"
Let's remember that at that point in time, the LaRouche group was claiming that AIDS was spread by insects. --Cberlet 21:57, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks as if there is enough material and sufficient merit to have a stand-alone article on Prop 64. There are already articles on a number of important state propositions, successful and unsuccessful, so it would not be unusual. I'll get at least a stub going. -Willmcw 23:08, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: See also: California Proposition 64 (1986)   -Willmcw 00:53, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Prop 64

message: Let's start with this section:
Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Gays & AIDS
Here are the remaining sections to edit after we agree to the above section:
:Republicanism v. Fascism
:Racism or Higher Culture?
:The Brainwashing Incident
:Let's edit them in order
We can do this!--Cberlet 03:56, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Editing by Sections

message: The issue of "cooked quotes" is essential to the question of whether Berlet's web site should be considered a reputable source. I have assembled the evidence on a special page: Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Evidence of "cooked quotes". I have edited for clarity some material contributed by Herschel. Weed Harper 07:23, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Weed, could you say which parts you have edited for clarity, please? SlimVirgin 09:05, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)
I shortened Herschels "Anatomy of a cut and paste job", leaving out comments that I thought were unnecessary, and I put in the italic and bold formatting. Weed Harper 21:16, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Evidence of "Cooked Quotes"

message: Chip Berlet AKA User:Cberlet has been systematically loading both Lyndon LaRouche and Political views of Lyndon LaRouche with quotes from articles that he has written. Between quotes from Chip and quotes from his siamese twin Dennis King, the articles resemble more and more an essay promoting their shared, idiosyncratic theories. The Slim 'n' Chip team has often attempted to justify CBerlet's edits by claiming that Berlet's material has appeared in "mainstream" publications. 
Fine, then. As I indicate to Will above, I will not remove any quotes from Chip that have appeared in "mainstream", read "mass circulation" publications. That would include the publications Will asked about as examples: Time, the Washington Times, Washington Post, or New York Times. It would not include some publications that have served as a venue for the King/Berlet theories, such as High Times. It emphatically would not include leftist conspiracy-theory blog sites that are cloned from PRA.
In this way, the mass-circulation press can serve as sort of a "filter" to determine which of the King/Berlet theories are "mainstream", and which are esoteric, arcane, idiosyncratic, and generally unacceptable in Wikipedia under the Wikipedia:No original research guidelines. --HK 16:42, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not what the NPOV page describes as the standard criteria.--Cberlet 18:06, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: If you do your homework, you will see that it is not considered original research for the purposes of Wikipedia if it has been published by a reputable and reliable publication or organization, even if I, as the author, post it--as long as I post it in the third person..--Cberlet 03:08, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Chip Berlet and Political Research Associates are regarded as experts in their field by other professional researchers and journalists. He is allowed to quote himself from his own publications, and that includes reports published by PRA, so long as (a) he quotes himself in the third person; and (b) he does not self-promote in an unnecessary or irrelevant way. Also, cut out the remarks about him being King's Siamese twin. Most intelligent people share these views about LaRouche, not just Berlet and King. SlimVirgin 03:11, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
Slim, your POV with regard to LaRouche is no mystery. Chip, it is the reputability and reliability of your organization that is being disputed. If you can find yourself quoted in a mass-circulation publication there will be no dispute. --HK 03:16, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: A proposal concerning the issue of Chip Berlet and [[Wikipedia:No original research|original research]]

message: There is another version of this article, Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/sandbox, that some editors have been working on. I am going to hide the comments and post it here. Substantial material has been moved between the Lyndon LaRouche bio and that version, in order to make a more logical division between the topics. The sandbox version is a bit rough in places, but I'm sure we can smooth it out. Cheers, -Willmcw 01:44, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sandbox 

message: More details on Lyndon LaRouche's conspiracy theories from a www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_91-96/fid_924_lar_mozart.html Fidelio artical on Mozart, and wlym.com/PDF-77-85/CAM7811.pdf an old Campaigner issue which seem to suggest that this conspiracy predates Aristotle, back into Egypt and Sumeria (though, it is possible that the Aristotlians refined these ideas). Also, the British Empiricists are supposedly an extension of the Venetian Dynasties (which ultimately links them to the Roman Empire).
He also has a unique perspective on the Freemasonic conspiracy, in which Continental Masonry (the "true" Freemasons) where and probably still are at war with the Anglo Masons (well duh). This means that he has made distinctions between the Masonic orders, this is rare amongst conspiracy theorists (who tend to over generalize).
There are two things I do dissagree with him on. First (though I do not have assertive evidence for these preposals): His adherence to pure rationality (See: Continental Rationalism) states that ideas can emerge purely without perception. I am not sure if this is wholly possible (birthing somebody in a sensory depravation tank could only reveal whether or not this is), though there is good evidence from remote viewing and other forms of ESP and intuition that could indeed suggest an objective Pleroma.
Secondly: As a Christian, and somebody who has studied evil/sin (one and the same, simply means malfunction, or "foul ball"), their is a little problem concerning the dichotemy between the spiritual and the material. I agree on Gnosticism being incorrect in seeing the Spiritual and the Physical as inherantly incongruent (remember, Gnosticism is the religious cult based on Platonism in which our substantial universe is at odds with The Form of Good). I agree that inherantly and ideally the pragmatic world an extension of the idealic and are mostly one and the same (this would be Panentheism). However, LaRouche ignores Christianity's most basic tennent, being that man (and the universe he lives in) has been estranged from God. This universe is in danger of dying out and man with it unless he accepts God's assistance (which requires humility, since it is bassically admitting inherant incompetance and dependancy, which is particularl hard for males since this has a catrating effect). And this is not merely a Biblical assertion. Any sight of evil in this world will varify this (particularly in hospitals, prisons, nature shows/safari, and traveling freakshows). So while I agree with LaRouche in principle on this, I must dissagree with him that that is presently so (and the Bible is relevant, since he professes Christianity).
Otherwise though, when I first read one of his pamphletes (Children of Satan) alongside another pamphlet dealing with industry and a trip to India (I believe this is strategic, showing him to be Politically/Fiscally Far left and Socially Far Right, where they respectively count) was extraordinary, I have never seen anything like it before. I was struck by the insight of those articles (these where things I had, myself, suspected myself, but lacked the vocabulary or evidence to express it).
IdeArchos 02:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your comment, but the purpose of this page is not to discuss LaRouche's ideas in the abstract. Rather, it is to discuss this article about his ideas. If there is any specific detail of the article you'd like to discuss, please do so. There are a number of forums elsewhere to discuss LaRouche and his ideas. Thanks, -Will Beback 05:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

text: www.factnet.org/discus/messages/4/13197.html is an intersting forum on various aspects of LaRouche's movement. -Will Beback 07:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That was rather considerate of you, thanks very much, looks like a good place.
IdeArchos 23:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  LaRouche's Conspiracy 

message: I removed Hertzberg from the list of Jewish leaders LaRouche "dialogues with."  While it is true that Hertzberg was interviewed in EIR, he has since disavowed any support for LaRouche and is deeply disturbed by LaRouche's extremist and possibly anti-semitic views. This is my first edit on Wikipedia, so be gentle. BrevisLux 21:06, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hertzberg and LaRouche

message: Actually, I did want something specific to mention (but forgot along the way). I wanted more concentration on LaRouche's Venitian/Roman/Egyptian claims, since according to him, this is where the whole British oligarchy emerged from. It was really a matter of emphasis (and the fact is that there is some mention of this in the article, though not enough to really show his conspiracy theory in depth). The Gnostic stuff shows what he considers the main problems with his enemies' views (basically, he feels that pagan materialism and Gnostic Manicheism hold a common view that the physical and metaphysical worlds are ireconcilable and thus have nothing to do with the other (thus, justifying their immorality).
Both of these where mainly intended for the "Politics" section, mainly for clerification into what his whole ideology and the nature of the conspiracy. Basically, it is not merely the British. 
  Again thanks
IdeArchos 03:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Now I Remember

message: It is POV to say that the use of the expression "the Jew" is anti-Semitic. Here is an example of this use that is clearly not anti-Semitic: www.israelnewsagency.com/jewisrael194800.html SlimVirgin put back in that LaRouche says "the Jew" which is a usage typical of anti-Semites. I think this is particularly propagandistic on her part, because the article in which LaRouche says it is an article attacking anti-semitism. I am removing that sentence. --NathanDW 21:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The example you give above is just another way of saying "the individual Jew": it's a turn of speech. That wasn't how LaRouche meant it. Regardless, I've removed it as original research, but I've retained that he used the expression, because he did. We can let the reader judge how he meant it. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:20, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: It is not anti-semitic to say "the Jew"

message: I see that SlimVirgin has deleted all the material about the mediation. I think that this is a questionable decision. Here is the new location: Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Twrigley. I have been meaning to say something, and I'll say it here. The problem is that when I or Northmeister or anyone else asks those three editors (Cberlet, Will Beback, SlimVirgin) to comply with Wikipedia policies by providing veriable sources, the same thing always happens: stalling, stonewalling, and accusations that anyone who asks for veriable sources is a LaRouche supporter. I have many criticisms of LaRouche, but I don't see that as justification for bad sourcing or propaganda techniques (quotes out of context, "spin.") I also agree that material that is sourced to Chip Berlet should have been published in a mainstream publication. I do agree that PRA is a "fringe" website, and much of what is on it could never possibly appear in a a mainstream publication. --NathanDW 16:43, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mediation

message: The two known experts on LaRouche, whether you like it or not, are Chip Berlet and Dennis King, which is why they're under constant attack by LaRouche supporters. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: NathanDW, keep in mind what is happening. Right now your under 'surveillance' by these people "Hmmmm. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=BirdsOfFire&offset=0&limit=500, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=NathanDW&offset=0&limit=500, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=Herschelkrustofsky&offset=0&limit=500, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=Northmeister&offset=0&limit=500,Something amiss?--Cberlet 02:10, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't you name another third-party expert on LaRouche that we can use as another source, if you feel Berlet and King aren't enough? SlimVirgin (talk) 18:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Daniel Brandt has done objective research on LaRouche. You can check it out at www.namebase.org. I don't think too many people think that King and Berlet are objective researchers. They are more like the media version of Mafia hitmen. If anyone has any illusions they should check out this article: www.larouchepub.com/exon/exon_add1_train.html --BirdsOfFire 16:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Erm, that article was written from a pro-LaRouche point of view, by a supporter who has no journalistic or acedemic credibilty that I can see. So that's not a reliable source on King and Berlet's reliablity.--Sean Black (talk) 23:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I am not the one upholding material from a source in question for being a 'very minority view' that is not holding to consensus here. The burden is not upon I but upon editors who add material to an article.  I question only the authenticity of Mr. Berlet's views in his books in lieu of the history of himself and Mr. LaRouche. I have no problem with the use of such said material if it is backed up with published and credible academic sources outside of Mr. Berlet, Mr. King and those associated with him.  I make this request considering the very 'fringe' nature of PRA and their associated sites and persons. It is a fair request to protect the reputation of wikipedia from being used a political launchpad for anyone, including LaRouche people. --Northmeister 18:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then please, by all means suggest some "published and credible academic sources outside of [sic] Mr. Berlet, Mr. King and those associated with him," who are experts on LaRouche. But if, as you say, the "burden is not upon [you] but upon editors who add material ..." then I suggest you leave it up to those editors, and as you're not here as an editor of the article, perhaps you could stop taking up the whole talk page with your complaints? SlimVirgin (talk) 19:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do leave it to those editors who have added material cited to Mr. Berlet, King and associates alone. If those editors can't provide sources outside of the stated individuals and associations in question for their 'fringe' nature, then that material needs to be removed until such said individuals provide citations outside of PRA and related sites or associations. If such citations are provided then it is legitimate for inclusion.  I also petition to have this article moved to the Lyndon LaRouche biography, as Mr. LaRouche, although controversial does not warrant several articles here at Wikipedia per his influence upon American society or the world community. --Northmeister 02:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is nonsense. The material cited has been published. Find reputable published sources and edit text. Complaining on this page in endless circles is a waste of time.--Cberlet 02:14, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right, that it is a waste of time. Surely, you have sources outside of your own material that you've used to gather evidence for your books. I am interested in those sources. The reason for interest is because I find it hard to accept your research because it is not mainstream. All I need is sources added to this article which indicates outside collaboration and support of your theory about LaRouche and the quote you provide. It is not unreasonable to ask for those. In all likely-hood you have them if you've done credible research, in which case you can provide them and the matter would be closed. Any material from credible newspaper's, magazines, other published books, or from the source of your information would help to discern the accuracy of your conclusions. To base an article, that is so negative against an individual in parts, upon your assumptions and conclusions alone is not only un-scientific but is morally wrong. If someone is out there to back up what you say, let the community know, indicate the source of the material beyond your published works. Many published works exist, and the best can point to examples of other academics and published sources concerning the subject matter at hand. What is at hand here is your accusations of fascism, anti-woman ideas, and so forth of Mr. LaRouche which belong in merit if there is credible evidence for this, but not particularly in his political views article but in his biography and with outside research. All I ask is confirmation of what you say. I am no advocate for the man and did not know of him until wikipedia and my experiences here. That said, my native sense of justice cannot ignore that much of the material on LaRouche here at Wikipedia is from one source and associates of that source and from none other; particularly regarding a persons motivations and honor. Let us have sources and let this matter rest. --Northmeister 02:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: All right then. I accept your statements above on a good faith basis. I have no intention of editing as I have said before. I wish you and the others to be cordial with those who do wish to edit this page and allow room for reason. I have had my say and will write no more about this. I ask that you extend the same sort of consideration I've given you to NathanDW and others in the future. That is all I ask. Thank You. --Northmeister 05:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The page you are referring to covers whether a website is notable enough to have an article, in the absence of other information. It does not concern whether an organizatoin that has a website is sufficient to user as a reliable source. That is covered by Wikipedia:Reliable sources. -Will Beback 21:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not the way things work around here. Nice try. -Will Beback 22:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Time to remove the flag.--Cberlet 22:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: I am asking people who edit this article to read one chapter from Dennis King's book, which is available on the internet,
Many of the charges LaRouche makes against his opponents seem far-fetched to me, but they are tame compared to Dennis King's diatribe. He makes every conspiracy theory I have ever seen look sober and prudent by comparison. Read the chapter and then tell me why anyone should take this guy seriously, let alone consider him a suitable source for Wikipedia. --NathanDW 15:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your POV opinion of King has no weight here.--Cberlet 03:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, you don't need to take my word for it. Just read this  and draw your own conclusions. --NathanDW 19:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your POV opinion of King has no weight here on Wiki since King's book was published by a major reputable publisher. A federal jury found that calling LaRouche a "small-time Hitler" was not defamatory.--Cberlet 20:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dennis King

message: This page increasingly is being edited to remove cited material and include dubious assertions that serve to sanitize the published material critical of LaRouche.  This page needs to be NPOV, not a blog for people who are upset by published criticism of LaRouche.--Cberlet 03:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I understand it, it is customary to be specific when making a POV complaint, citing both the offending edits and the relevant Wikipedia policy. --ManEatingDonut 07:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And I will be specific as soon as I finish removing the fawning advertisements and plugs for LaRouche from the other page where we are discussing this.--Cberlet 13:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV edits