Talk:Three-Self Patriotic Movement

message: Why does China Christian Council redirect here, if they are separate organisations? Markalexander100 03:38, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Try the end of http://www.us.omf.org/content.asp?id=9319 They look pretty connected.--Henrygb 21:41, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The Chinese version of the official name reads 中国基督教三自爱国运动委员会. I have seen this translated as the Committee of the Three-Self Patriotic Movement of the Protestant Churches in China rather than the way its rendered here in this article; China Christian Three-Self Patriotic Movement Committee. This is perhaps due to the fact that the Protestant faith is generally referred to in Chinese as "基督教" (Jidu Jiao) which literally means "Religion of the Christ" whereas Roman Catholicism is referred to as "天主教" (Tianzhu Jiao) which literally means "Religion of the Heavenly Lord". This is evident in Chinese speaking communities both in China (including Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan) and abroad. Should this warrant a relook at the way the name is translated here in this article?
Incidentally, the official website of the Chinese Protestant Church also translates it as the Three-Self Patriotic Movement of the Protestant Churches in China. - Bob K 15:19, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Translation of the Name

message: Having done some research online when I was expanding this article, it seems to me that a more suitable title for this article would be  either the Protestant Church in China or the National Conference of Chinese Protestant Churches. As the roles of both the TSPM and CCC overlap significantly and most of the work by these two organisations are considered part of the expression of the "post-denominational" Protestant Church, this would help make this article less ambiguous.
According to the official FAQ published by the Amity Foundation (another related TSPM/CCC/PCC organisation), the TSPM exists as a movement within the Protestant churches and the CCC exists as an umbrella movement for all registered Protestant churches. I know this whole setup is ambiguous and confusing, so to describe it as they see themselves would be the best bet.
I have also added a Controversy section to this article as the TSPM/CCC's claim to represent Chinese Protestants is contentious and there are plenty of accounts of the persecution of non-registered Churches and non-cooperation from Churches outside China with the TSPM. This should help create a more neutral tone for this article yet acknowledging the difficulties that arose after the 1949 Civil War and the establishment of the People's Republic of China. -- Bob K 02:34, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely disagree that this article needs to be renamed. There are more members in Chinese house churches than government sanctioned ones and to your point, they just don't represent all Chinese Protestants.Brian0324 (talk) 16:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That may be true but wouldn't that be subjecting this article to POV rather than an academic handling? Quite a few people in the Chinese house church would not even consider themselves Protestant in the common understanding of the term. -- Bob K 08:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

text: The proposed renaming is inappropriate.  The TSPM is only a portion of Protestantism in China in two different ways.  First, temporally it is only a portion - Protestantism was in China more than a century before the TSPM was started.  Second, there has been no point in time when all Protestant churches in China were part of the TSPM.  More importantly, the Three-Self Patriotic Movement is the English name by which this organization is best known, and we write Wikipedia articles about organizations at the name by which it is best known in English.  That the CCC and Amity Foundation are related is no big deal; we regularly cover related organizations in multiple articles.  If there is an umbrella parent legal organization we should also have an article on it.  GRBerry 13:53, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Renaming to Protestant Church in China

message: I removed some unsourced materials which alleged, among other things, of "systematic persecution" of Christians by the PRC, which is no light accusation. Potentially libelous material from unreliable sources is to be removed at first sight per Wikipedia policy - as long as the user who added the claims could not supplement it with reliable sources, discussion is not necessary. The first source removed appears to be an article submitted by a little-known person in a website where submissions are freely accepted. The second source removed appears to come from a Christian organization (not a forum - my mistake) which is in no way a neutral source. 143.89.188.6 (talk) 16:16, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. Thanks for taking the trouble to explain your edits. - Bob K | Talk 17:39, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  To be fair, I will retain the allegations by Forum 18 and corroborate it with other sources. The allegations are legitimate concerns and there's an understanding that they remain controversial (hence the Controversies section). - Bob K | Talk 23:40, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of unsourced material 

message: I believe the persecution of 'house churches' and other unregistered Christian organizations in China is carried out by the Chinese government as widely reported. How is the persecution relevant to the subject of this article?---North south 101 (talk) 10:56, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It's "controversial" because the government operates on a white-list principle, not a black-list one, i.e. everything that's not explicitly permitted is simply illegal by definition. How is the prosecution of legally defined illegal organizations "persecution" by any definition? 68.145.212.169 (talk) 21:56, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversies section