Talk:Fritz Zwicky

message: "Zwicky **immediately** speculated (incorrectly, it turns out) that the effect was due not to motions of the galaxy, but to some **inexplicable** phenomena that **mysteriously** caused photons to lose energy" 
That's a typical attempt at ridiculizing an explanation wich is not in line with what the maintream parrots. "Tired light" is a legitimate explanation and there's nothing "inexplicable" or "mysterious" about the mechanism. I suggest the sentence be reworded paying a bit more respect to objectivity.--201.213.52.138 (talk) 18:29, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Bias

message: Isn't the "rap" a little inappropriate and also a copyvio? —Keenan Pepper 23:01, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, it struck me as odd.  I investigated two of the cited references and found no mention of this, so I've deleted it on the basis of not having been supported with a citation.  If someone has a citation to offer, by all means restore it. Accounting4Taste 19:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rap

message: Herbm 02:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, it struck me as odd.  I investigated two of the cited references and found no mention of this, so I've deleted it on the basis of not having been supported with a citation.  If someone has a citation to offer, by all means restore it. Accounting4Taste 19:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: This article needed a lot of work, and still needs more

message: I hope our club could help a bit to do so.
84.158.112.69 11:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  DONE? 

message: This has no place in the article. Nothing about Zwicky's tired light proposal bears the slightest relation to the Mössbauer effect, which only occurs in solid crystals. The section refers to Lyndon Ashmore, with whom I am very familiar. He is a high school teacher with an amateur interest in reinventing most of cosmology, and has no credibility anywhere. He speaks of a Mössbauer effect in deep space plasmas, which is physically ludicrous; it is part of his unique proposal for tired light which conflicts with very elementary physics on conservation of momentum and energy, and has nothing to do with Zwicky. I don't know who put this there, but it is nothing but a plug for Lyndon's ludicrously incorrect theory that fails elementary physics. I will remove this section after dinner; this gives a bit of time for anyone to comment. Duae Quartunciae 08:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I am going to remove the section: Mössbauer effect prevents blurring 

message: We have a bad problem with this article in relation to tired light. I have deleted two sections which were especially badly supported and were, in fact, founded on totally unphysical crank science that has no publication record. There's lots more still here that is badly flawed. Tired light is a long since refuted idea in physics. It has no credibility. Modern day tired light advocates do not use Zwicky's model in any case; they propose unphysical interactions with matter particles in deep space. Frankly, nearly everything in this article starting from the section heading "Tired Light" right through to the section headed "Hubble's Meaning" should be deleted, and replaced with a brief description of what Zwicky himself actually proposed and the fact that it was never generally accepted and is now long since falsified. Most of the material I think should be deleted is actually an attempt to argue an extreme tired light model quite different to that of Zwicky, and one which is universally dismissed as nonsense by working astronomers. However, I don't want to do more drastic deletions until someone else can speak up -- preferably someone who is also at little bit familiar with astronomy. Or, if I get a vote of confidence from a few folks, I can go ahead with the deletion and the replacement as suggested here. Duae Quartunciae 11:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No one has commented; I am going to take the advice of some of the guides and jump right in. Major edits will be taking place. Deletion of most of the tired light material for reasons given, some changes to formatting of the rest to clean it up and help my edits. Duae Quartunciae 01:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Finished all the edits, for now. I've worked it over pretty thoroughly, though I'm sure there's lots more improvement possible. Did a whole pile of edits, one at a time. Is that an ok way to work? Duae Quartunciae 15:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I have tightened up a bit the sentence on accelerating expansion. It is not a conflict between theory and observation, but an indicator that of a non-zero cosmological constant. It is a new development and a refinement of theory; but not a conflict with theory. Duae Quartunciae 15:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tired Light 

message: * 1. [An Open Letter to the Scientific Community] shows: your meaning is too common, but not correct, see e.g. [] and that a modified tired light declares Pioneer anomaly!.
* 2. Correctly! Feynman confessed not Zwicky - but his Physics: 
* First step FEYNMAN: Light in glass as Quantum effects, never been GR-related. 
* Second steo ASCHMORE: He compared CORRECTLY (see below) interstellar gas with glass. 
* Two (very hard?) steps to understand what was meant?  
* 3. Is insulting other meanings a WIKI-manner? 
* Reminder: ZWICKY must be treated with old physics - or not?
* YOU (CITED): "I have deleted the section, based on CRANK PHYSICS and having nothing to do with Zwicky. Mössbauer effects occur in a rigid crystal; not a plasma." 
* Are and were all (physicians) not supporting new meanings CRANK (PHYSICIANS)?
* 4. Was it fair to erase the CITED (!)part of Ashmore and THEN talking to him - only after it was erased? How could he see how he was cited? PLEASE BE FAIR... 
* Lyndon Ashmore was directly cited and your talk with him was completely negative for your meaning, because ZWICKY means (his and our) old physics - of course no Standard...
* 5. YOU (CITED TALK): "Nothing about Zwicky's tired light proposal bears the slightest relation to the Mössbauer effect, which only occurs in solid crystals." - Please look in (better:) German WIKI to Mössbauer effect =>  to learn how it is valid for gas, solids and liquids 
* 6. Is it fair to pervert what ASHMORE wrote (to you?)?:
* "Originally Posted by Sylas  View Post ... Wikipedia has a biography on Fritz Zwicky that I have just noticed. It seems to have been largely written by someone who is using it as a vehicle to push a modern day tired light model. I have taken it upon myself to delete a paragraph on Lyndon Ashmore's Mössbauer effect nonsense; and also a paragraph in which Feynman's lectures about light transmission in glass is associated with a supposed "rehabilitation" of Zwicky -- meaning tired light.
* ASHMORE: Thanks for any help or comment -- Sylas
Thanks for drawing our attention to this article Sylas. I hadn't seen it before. However, there is nothing 'nonesensical' about Lyndonashmore's tired light model. Whilst we will not discuss it here, It remains THE most viable theory on the Hubble redshift."
* 7. ASHMORE ORIGINALLY CITED: “How Do Photons Interact With The Electrons In Intergalactic (IG) Space?
* To Answer this we must look at how light travels through a transparent medium such as glass. In a vacuum light travels at 3x108m/s. In a medium such as glass the light is slowed down. The reason for this is that the photons that make up the light are continually absorbed and re-emitted by the electrons in the atoms of the glass. The photon comes along, it is absorbed by the atom, the system of electrons is set into oscillation and then a new photon, identical to the first is emitted. However, this process is not instantaneous as there is a delay between the absorption of the old photon and the emission of the new one. The result of all the delays suffered by the photons as they pass through the glass is that the average speed of the photon is reduced. Photons travel at the speed of light in a vacuum ( 3x108m/s) between interactions with the atoms but their overall average speed is reduced because of the delays suffered whilst interacting with the atoms.” 
Is reading links a too hard work???
PLEASE BE FAIR AND READ SOURCES AND LINKS
wfc_k for 3 Astro-clubs (we have 1 Prof. and about 15 Dres and skilled physicians) 84.158.213.87 20:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I require help here from the Wiki community. I am new to how we should handle this.  I mean no personal offense to Lyndon Ashmore, but his material was incorrect and has no standing or recognition in the scientific community. His only publication is in an extreme fringe journal with no credible review process -- and a self published book. Neither has had any impact; they are neither used nor cited in the conventional scientific literature. The paper is riddled with very trivial errors in basic physics. There have been no experiments or observations to confirm this stuff, and it is described using words in ways that don't fit with the ways they are used in physics. For example, the appeal to Feynman is an appeal to the transmission of light through glass, which involves no redshift, and involves interactions with crystal lattice and electrons bound to atoms. Feynman's physics -- as well as that of anyone else -- does not relate this in any way to a process that could give tried light in space. NONE of it has anything to do with Zwicky. I think we need some form of arbitration process. Furthermore, I believe this stuff is so far out of the basic mainstream that I would request that please the edits that have been applied be removed UNTIL arbitration is permitted. No offense intended here; I and I respect your good intentions. Good intentions are not enough. Duae Quartunciae 21:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The first step in resolving a dispute is to talk to each other. I will make a series of comments to different matters, under different headings.
===Respect for Other Users===
I have checked over my comments, and am satisfied that they are confined to accurate statements of facts with respect to substance of proposals and the standing of the various ideas in physics. I do respect your good intentions, and will avoid attacking anyone as individuals. I will not refrained from identifying risible physics as trivially erroneous. Please accept also my good intentions in this, and realize you will have to work within a context where I respect you as persons, but consider your physics to be full of very trivial and basic errors.Duae Quartunciae 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Please look into by us only CITED links to understand an alternative philosophy, and our answer below to basic problems of any mainstream meanings without critics... - wfc_k 84.158.227.72 14:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Addedum. The link is still in the new material, but no longer given through the references section. This link is accompanied by a very confused discussion, which in my opinion should be deleted completely and replaced with the brief paragraph I had given earlier. The only basis for the long discussion currently given at the start of the "Tired Light" section by a recent anonymous editor is a lead in to try and justify subsequent discussions of Lyndon's fringe theories in this biography, and an invalid association with various other mixed up physics explicitly in conflict with Zwicky's own rejection of electron interaction for reasons which remain valid today. There are other minor errors in the discussion; but correcting them is beside the point. I am awaiting help from a neutral third party, but I think the best way forward is to put back the short paragraph I had their previously, briefly describing Zwicky's own tired light ideas in informal terms, and then invite comment. Duae Quartunciae 02:01, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I have looked at the German wiki page you cited on the Mössbauer effect. I cannot read German, but I got a rough idea using a translation tool. The German page seems fine; and it confirms that the effect involves solid state quantum effects. This cannot transpose to a rarified interstellar plasma; and in any case the Mössbauer effect DOES involve scattering of the photons that collide with the lattice... not a straightline transmission with energy loss as required for tired light. The diagram shows the detector picking up photons scattered at right angles. This is why Zwicky himself explicitly and correctly rejected scattering processes. The difference in the Mössbauer effect is that scattering occurs with no recoil in the scatterer, and hence no redshift in the scattered photon. The first paragraph of the German wiki (translated) includes this: By the Moessbauer effect ... one understands the recoilless emission or absorption of a gamma quantum by an atomic nucleus. In addition the core must be in a crystal lattice, which can take over the recoil ... Duae Quartunciae 23:27, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, read that German SECTION as linked: valid for GAS, SOLIDS, FLUIDS, see comment more below. wfc_k 84.158.220.75 14:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Hmm...I'm sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you guys are talking about.  I wonder if you'll derive any benefit from a 3PO because yout subject matter is extremely specific and very narrowly defined, and the contents of your dispute are not altogether cogent.  Perhaps there is a slight language barrier of sorts (your use of certain words throws me off, even though everything is obviously in English), and this is even though I am a tremendous fan of Richard Feynman.  I'm leaving it on the 3PO page and hopefully you will modify your request and subsequently receive some useful sort of suggestion on dispute resolution. DRosenbach (Talk | Contribs) 03:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm hoping for some help not only with technical matters, but with dispute resolution and Wikipedia guidelines. For example... I also am a huge fan of Feynman. The reference given here to Feynman makes no reference to tired light or to Zwicky. The linkage that is being made from Feynman's comments on the transmission of light through glass, to putative energy loss for light in a thin plasma in rarified space is a violation of WP:NOR, as I understand it. The anonymous editor can give no verifiable citation that links tired light to Feynman's lectures, or to the Mossbauer effect. Duae Quartunciae 03:53, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

text: the whole tired light section after the first paragraph is original research - the best thing to do is to move it here to the talk page where its merits or lack can be dscussed - better still move it to the tired light talk page, as you have correctly pointed out it is too much detail for a biography independent of it being OR or not, kind regards sbandrews (t) 11:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

text: A look at the tired light talk page shows that a similar discussion has taken place there in the past, and was resolved, with pretty much the total removal of the kind of stuff that has been placed here by the anonymous editor. At least, that is how I see it. I guess further discussion there would be in order; but I strongly advise anyone to review the history on that page first. I have removed from this biography all the subsections within tired light, as this seems pretty basic. I still have major concerns about the paragraphs that remain; and will put together a new proposal extending what I proposed above and taking into account also Dr Submillimeter's thoughts and the current text by the anonymous editor. I will put it up for consideration here before editing further. -- Duae Quartunciae 12:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I almost wonder if this anonymous editor is actually a sock puppet.  Anyhow, the removal of this material from this page was appropriate.  Dr. Submillimeter 13:21, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, but we are many people in our Astro-club relatet with two others, and that is indeed a problem to be solved by us, but we are in vacancies now and I seem to be the last... wfc_k 84.158.253.15 14:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ASHMORE gave [[User:Duae Quartunciae]] good stuff, where is it? 

message: I have checked over my comments, and am satisfied that they are confined to accurate statements of facts with respect to substance of proposals and the standing of the various ideas in physics. I do respect your good intentions, and will avoid attacking anyone as individuals. I will not refrained from identifying risible physics as trivially erroneous. Please accept also my good intentions in this, and realize you will have to work within a context where I respect you as persons, but consider your physics to be full of very trivial and basic errors.Duae Quartunciae 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Respect for Other Users

message: The fundamental issue here is that this has no relevance to Zwicky's ideas. It has no place in this biography. We have your assertion only that it has any relevance to transmission of light in deep space. This is an example of bad physics. Transmission in light involves no redshift of a tired light form; and unless you see Feynman himself making that association, your association with Feynams work on light in a crystal lattice with interactions to a lattice of bound electrons is not something you should associate with free electrons in a plasma on no other basis than your own assertion. Duae Quartunciae 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please look into by us only CITED links to understand an alternative philosophy, and our answer below to basic problems of any mainstream meanings without critics... - wfc_k 84.158.227.72 14:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Light transmission in glass

message: Incredibly, you guys have deleted outright the new material I provided that gave a link to Zwicky's own work in tired light in the references section! As a result of your deletion of all the work I provided, discussion of Zwicky's own papers are replaced with a lot of material developing proposals that Zwicky himself rejected on very basic physical grounds that remain valid today. The link you removed was On the Redshift of Spectral Lines through Interstellar Space, (Zwicky 1929). You now have that only in the list of papers, with no discussion of his work in the actual tired light section! On page 775, Zwicky considered the possibility of interactions with free electrons in interstallar space, and rejects this possibility because "any explanation based on a scattering processes like Compton effect or the Raman effect, etc, will be in a hopeless position..." THAT was Zwicky's view, and you have deleted the link and replaced with the very forms of process that Zwicky and indeed effectively the entire astronomical community consider to be physically impossible. Duae Quartunciae 22:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Addedum. The link is still in the new material, but no longer given through the references section. This link is accompanied by a very confused discussion, which in my opinion should be deleted completely and replaced with the brief paragraph I had given earlier. The only basis for the long discussion currently given at the start of the "Tired Light" section by a recent anonymous editor is a lead in to try and justify subsequent discussions of Lyndon's fringe theories in this biography, and an invalid association with various other mixed up physics explicitly in conflict with Zwicky's own rejection of electron interaction for reasons which remain valid today. There are other minor errors in the discussion; but correcting them is beside the point. I am awaiting help from a neutral third party, but I think the best way forward is to put back the short paragraph I had their previously, briefly describing Zwicky's own tired light ideas in informal terms, and then invite comment. Duae Quartunciae 02:01, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Zwicky's own work

message: The Mössbauer effect does not work in a plasma. It applies to gamma rays in solid crystal. The effects of the lattice are essential. If the German wiki says otherwise then it has a problem. One claim made by Lyndon Ashmore is that the Mössbauer effect involves straighline tranmissions. That's not true. Photons get scattered in the Mössbauer effect, and they are emitted at extreme angles, without recoil of the much heavier lattice. This section should be deleted. It is a series of basic errors in physics; not "new physics" at all; and it has no relevance to Zwicky -- who correctly recognized as do effectively the entire scientific community today that tired light cannot arise from interactions of photons and electrons. The paper (Zwicky 1929) that I cited explicit considers this possibility and dismisses it. The same reasoning remains valid today, and is accepted today.
:I have looked at the German wiki page you cited on the Mössbauer effect. I cannot read German, but I got a rough idea using a translation tool. The German page seems fine; and it confirms that the effect involves solid state quantum effects. This cannot transpose to a rarified interstellar plasma; and in any case the Mössbauer effect DOES involve scattering of the photons that collide with the lattice... not a straightline transmission with energy loss as required for tired light. The diagram shows the detector picking up photons scattered at right angles. This is why Zwicky himself explicitly and correctly rejected scattering processes. The difference in the Mössbauer effect is that scattering occurs with no recoil in the scatterer, and hence no redshift in the scattered photon. The first paragraph of the German wiki (translated) includes this: By the Moessbauer effect ... one understands the recoilless emission or absorption of a gamma quantum by an atomic nucleus. In addition the core must be in a crystal lattice, which can take over the recoil ... Duae Quartunciae 23:27, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, read that German SECTION as linked: valid for GAS, SOLIDS, FLUIDS, see comment more below. wfc_k 84.158.220.75 14:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mössbauer effect

message: I would like to propose that we invite a third party to join this discussion; it is an informal request and it is a standard part of how Wikipedia deals with issues such as we are having here. It would be best if we can mutually agree that an a third party from Wikipedia has some potential to help. Are you agreeable? If there is no answer I'll go ahead and request someone come and have a look, but I would prefer that we can both agree this is a good step first. Duae Quartunciae 22:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm...I'm sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you guys are talking about.  I wonder if you'll derive any benefit from a 3PO because yout subject matter is extremely specific and very narrowly defined, and the contents of your dispute are not altogether cogent.  Perhaps there is a slight language barrier of sorts (your use of certain words throws me off, even though everything is obviously in English), and this is even though I am a tremendous fan of Richard Feynman.  I'm leaving it on the 3PO page and hopefully you will modify your request and subsequently receive some useful sort of suggestion on dispute resolution. DRosenbach (Talk | Contribs) 03:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm hoping for some help not only with technical matters, but with dispute resolution and Wikipedia guidelines. For example... I also am a huge fan of Feynman. The reference given here to Feynman makes no reference to tired light or to Zwicky. The linkage that is being made from Feynman's comments on the transmission of light through glass, to putative energy loss for light in a thin plasma in rarified space is a violation of WP:NOR, as I understand it. The anonymous editor can give no verifiable citation that links tired light to Feynman's lectures, or to the Mossbauer effect. Duae Quartunciae 03:53, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

text: the whole tired light section after the first paragraph is original research - the best thing to do is to move it here to the talk page where its merits or lack can be dscussed - better still move it to the tired light talk page, as you have correctly pointed out it is too much detail for a biography independent of it being OR or not, kind regards sbandrews (t) 11:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

text: A look at the tired light talk page shows that a similar discussion has taken place there in the past, and was resolved, with pretty much the total removal of the kind of stuff that has been placed here by the anonymous editor. At least, that is how I see it. I guess further discussion there would be in order; but I strongly advise anyone to review the history on that page first. I have removed from this biography all the subsections within tired light, as this seems pretty basic. I still have major concerns about the paragraphs that remain; and will put together a new proposal extending what I proposed above and taking into account also Dr Submillimeter's thoughts and the current text by the anonymous editor. I will put it up for consideration here before editing further. -- Duae Quartunciae 12:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I almost wonder if this anonymous editor is actually a sock puppet.  Anyhow, the removal of this material from this page was appropriate.  Dr. Submillimeter 13:21, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, but we are many people in our Astro-club relatet with two others, and that is indeed a problem to be solved by us, but we are in vacancies now and I seem to be the last... wfc_k 84.158.253.15 14:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for a third party

message: I did not read through all of the comments here, but I did briefly looked at this article.  The "tired light" section has been given undue weight compared to the other material, especially since Zwicky is much better known now for his other contributions than for this specific theory.  Moreover, most of this discussion is not about Zwicky's work in the field but instead about the theory in general, and it should be placed in the tired light article.  
The paragraph proposed by Duae Quartunciae seems to be appropriate, although it could explain Zwicky's proposal in slightly more detail, and it could include a reference for the last paragraph.  (I bet Peebles's book has something.)  Once modified, this section should replace the current "Tired light" section in this article.  
If the anonymous editor does not agree with this and does not discuss the issue here, then it may be appropriate to semi-protect the page (see WP:RFP).  Dr. Submillimeter 11:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A look at the tired light talk page shows that a similar discussion has taken place there in the past, and was resolved, with pretty much the total removal of the kind of stuff that has been placed here by the anonymous editor. At least, that is how I see it. I guess further discussion there would be in order; but I strongly advise anyone to review the history on that page first. I have removed from this biography all the subsections within tired light, as this seems pretty basic. I still have major concerns about the paragraphs that remain; and will put together a new proposal extending what I proposed above and taking into account also Dr Submillimeter's thoughts and the current text by the anonymous editor. I will put it up for consideration here before editing further. -- Duae Quartunciae 12:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I almost wonder if this anonymous editor is actually a sock puppet.  Anyhow, the removal of this material from this page was appropriate.  Dr. Submillimeter 13:21, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, but we are many people in our Astro-club relatet with two others, and that is indeed a problem to be solved by us, but we are in vacancies now and I seem to be the last... wfc_k 84.158.253.15 14:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments from [[User:Dr. Submillimeter|Dr. Submillimeter]]

message: The Ashmore-ideology should be excluded from this page because of WP:UNDUE. --Mainstream astronomy 13:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is only MAINSTREAM valid? WIKI meanwhile reduced to a "dedicated follower of fashion"? wfc_k 84.158.220.75 14:30, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Undue weight

message: 1. ZWICKY is in the world mainly known for Tired light, less for only now relevant dark matter. He is no mainstream and according to WIKI alternatives and critcis should be mentioned and validated. 
* The precedent proposal to put it into Tired light or non- is good but will fail. 
* To User:Duae Quartunciae: Partly right to German WIKI, but mainly you have not seen our correct direct link to the relevant SECTION (trans. here below under 4.!). 
* To Duae Quartunciae you are right to put the MARK but nee all links to realize other serious menings. Our club worked for 3 month to make the formerly as bad qualified article better with serious links. 
* Duae Quartunciae: Please verify all imposed links to realize at least a very well-founded stuff. 
* It is a similar discussion as in Photons. Are (maistream) physicians no more educated to well-known alternatives?
* gravitational redshift and gravitational potential is Zwicky's (and others) ground to se things from another view:
wfc_k 84.158.220.75 14:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structured now 

message: See answers and links as evidences. wfc_k (not completely anonymous but our club-PC was affected by a hard attack, even redirected to some "sexy sites", sorry, sorry but I cannot change adminisrtator's caution) 
wfc_k 84.158.248.83 14:38, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have evidence for your viewpoint, then publish it in the Astrophysical Journal at http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/ApJ/journal/ .  Again, please review Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not.  Wikipedia is not obligated to publish your club's material or to give undue weight to this alternative theory.  Moreover, the material really does not belong in this article anyway because it strays off-topic.  Dr. Submillimeter 14:47, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

text: You're not getting this. The Wikipedia guidelines on verifiability and original research are quite clear and not open to debate. You may not use this page to argue with the Wikipedia guidelines. Your own proclamations or your club's presence on the web make no difference. The rule is: for this online encyclopedia you simply MUST provide a verifiable reliable reference, as defined in the Wikipedia guidelines, that makes explicit this link you perceive between Zwicky and Mossbauer effects or whatever else you want to invoke. If such a thing existed, it could be given in two lines. -- Duae Quartunciae 14:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

text: We really mean that you must follow the Wikipedia guidlines. You are NOT ALLOWED to put original research in an article. A search of all papers by Zwicky in PNAS is not what is needed either. At this point you are only cluttering up the talk page with irrelevancies. Please, just read and follow the guidelines. -- Duae Quartunciae 15:30, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sorry, but our club had written in 3 months 85% of ZWICKY as your real truth!! 

message: * Is this a bare accusation of people never having made a university dissertation or even much more (see the end herein from a Prof. calling me)? 
* To realize that your accusation is oviously false invention, you have simply to read only many linked ORIGINALS and what we made from it with about 40 links, made to convince you! 
* Then you should only realize our SUMMARIES of ORIGINALS: ZWICKY, EINSTEIN, PLANCK, HARP, BURBIDGE, ASHMORE etc.
* We seriously LINKED SOURCES and RESUMED their content of LINKS OF ORIGINAL RESEARCH.
* Sorry but can this be accused to be OWN ORIGINAL RESEARCH? - Oh oh.... what a perversion of logic?
* Only one part I link again aa resume e.g. from Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America (PNAS) 
* OUR ORIGINAL RESEARCH? - Sorry but who is here silly or (cited) "krank"? 
* I will follow now the advice of our old Univ.-Prof. reminding me again to stop not to become really "krank":
THIRD PHONE IN 2 WEEKS: Our > 85 y.o old (now) French Professor (after near 2 years in other parts a known successful author and WIKI-initiator) phoned me now again and said: I should give up to fight against Big-bang-windmills to save my health. So I will do, will go home 20 miles away from our club, go in vacancy as well really to save my health. People of our 3 clubs had made or enhanced at least 30 WIKI articles and spent money to WIKI and now resign TO BE:BOLD. Sinc 3 month none wrote himself (frustration of steady rv?). 
- Sorry I am only a "normal" Ing. educated in Univ. Darmstadt in physics and electrotechnics, then systemprogrammer, now impeded by accident - but I was only the writer for a good will... 
I must confirm now: I should myself join now the meanwhile about 200 scientists and related people in [An Open Letter to the Scientific Community]!-??? 
wfc_k 84.158.225.35 16:21, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is very simple. In order to place into the article a linkage between Mossbauer effect and tired light, you must be able to provide a verifiable reliable reference that makes this linkage explicit. You cannot cite articles which refer to Mossbauer effect, and other articles that refer to tired light, and claim a connection on your own behalf, or on the basis of Ashmore's private pages. See the policy section on  Synthesis. -- Duae Quartunciae 16:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  FINAL: Of course it is not allowed to PUT ORIGINAL RESEARCH 

message: I have removed the tag indicating that the tired light section is under dispute, because I have done a lot of work since then, and now consider that the whole biography is more or less fixed. I've added a couple of sections; in particular Zwicky's humanitarian work and the section "Guns and Goblins" which aims to look at some of his more unconventional ideas. The list of publications is perhaps too long; but basically this was the kind of material added in place when I started editing. I've subsectioned it, and put it all into a good citation formation, with links. This means I have stopped editing for the time being. -- Duae Quartunciae 15:46, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Far too many publications - no point putting them here, someone will just delete them! Nevertheless congratulations on a job well done. sbandrews (t) 15:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. So I've gone ahead and deleted most of them myself! This reduced the article size by about 25%. The article at 15:40, 15 July 2007 still has all the previous publications I'd given in citation form. If other editors feel that there is a significant work that would be good to include, you might find a copy of the citation from there. I'm suggesting the Publications list now has just a few representative works, each one with a one line comment of some kind. -- Duae Quartunciae 01:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Publications list 

message: Tired light is an important part of Zwicky's work. What Sylas has done here is to censor the article to basically discredit Zwicky's brilliant idea. That is he wants to leave the prediction in but omit the evidence that later proved him correct.
There are several new proposals on Zwicky's ideas - all of them published in peer reviewed, scientific journals. Why should Sylas call them 'crank?' If academics around the world have said they are of sufficient interest to be published, then why should he (Sylas) alone decide that he knows better and should delete these references?
There are several popints here that Sylas has missed.
i) Zwicky proposes a tired light theory and an exponential Hubble diagram.
ii) He also proposes that Supernovae could act as standard candles.
iii) other workers at a later date continue his work and come up with good physical explanations as to why tired light is responsible for the redsahift normally put down to expansion.
iv) ashmore shows that the Hubble constant itself is related to electron parameters and explains why http://www.lyndonashmore.com (ashmore's paradox) H = hr/m per cubic metre of space
v) suopernovae data show an exponential Hubble diagram.
Zwicky suggested tired light. He suggested supernovae as standard candles.
It these supernovae that later prove his own theory correct.
That is why these points must remain here on this site.  Cosmic relief 11:27, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lyndon's understanding of basic physics is incorrect, and has no standing or impact in the world of science. We don't need to argue the physics. The relevant standards are WP:NOR and WP:VERIFY. At no point in this discussion was any reliable source provided that related Zwicky's ideas on tired light to Ashmore's ideas. The reference to Ashmore's website is WP:SPS. The linkage between conventional physics of solid state light transmission and tired light in deep space is WP:SYN. Ashmore's ideas are not proving Zwicky correct; they are actually in direct conflict with each other. Zwicky explicitly considered and rejected as hopeless the style of process that Ashmore is advocating, and this was substantiated from Zwicky's own papers. Zwicky's own ideas involving gravitational processes were never developed into a workable theory, but he was a first rate particle physicist who would never have made the trivial errors that are in Ashmore's writings. Ashmore's complaints are without merit, either as physics or by wikipedia standards. -- Duae Quartunciae 16:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am new to Wikipedia, and to Biography assessment. My apologies if the previous two comments were inappropriate here. I have put a lot of work into this biography to bring it up to standard, and would really appreciate help or guidance as to what more should be done. I think the article is a lot better than when this WPBiography box was first added; but further suggestions from Wikipedia biography experts would be very welcome! -- Duae Quartunciae 05:54, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  moved from comments 

message: A new editor  65.11.156.143 has made some useful changes to the tired light section. However, two of the changes are not accurate, I think, so I have done a partial revert. They could be restored if given a citation. -- Duae Quartunciae 21:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tired light criticisms in Zwicky's own time 

message: Hi, I added some poorely known contribution of Zwicky's mistaken hypothesis of tired light to understanding of general relativity. It might be kind of funny that a wrong idea provides a material to improve another theory but it's just like it is... Jim 16:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry Jim, but I have reverted that change entirely as WP:POV. Like it or not, the conventional explanation for redshift remains expansion of space; not tired light or any variant thereof. Your change made a number of blanket assertions, with no references, that relate to your own notions of the causes of cosmological redshift and which have no real currency at present. This is a BIOGRAPHY, people. It should be about Zwicky, and Zwicky's own ideas. It is not a suitable venue for people to add in their own ideas with a claim that it vindicates Zwicky in some way. This is also an example of synthesis, a particular kind of no original research conflict that arises when you propose a relationship between two ideas without citing a verifiable reference that makes that linkage explicit for you. Unless it is clearly verifiable with a good source that explicitly links the recent idea to Fritz Zwicky's own ideas, then it has no place in this biography. -- Duae Quartunciae (t|c) 00:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zwicky's poorely known contribution to general relativity 

message: "Fritz Zwicky was born in Varna, Bulgaria, to Swiss parents. His father was the Bulgarian ambassador to Norway. " Could there be some explanation of why the bulgarian ambassador to norway was swiss?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.2.40.144 (talk) 21:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Has been changed in the meantime to "honorary consul of Norway in Bulgaria", which is more plausible. --Bachforelle (talk) 11:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  parents 

message: Hello. I'm wondering if we can tell that he is "of Bulgarian origin". Well, he was born in Varna, but his parents are Swiss, he moved to Switzerland at the age of 6, and he worked mainly in the US. Also, the categories "Bulgarian astronomers" and "Bulgarian Americans" look me inappropriate. --PetaRZ (talk) 20:59, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I removed the categories. Being born in a country doesn't necessarily make you that country's national, so to speak. He's still a Bulgarian born person, but his origins are Swiss and even upon moving to U.S., he was always a Swiss astrophysicist, having grown up and studied in Switzerland, the country of his family's roots. See a similar treatment in Issac Asimov article.--RossF18 (talk) 22:53, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "of Bulgarian origin" 

message: The January 2009 issue of Discovery has an interview with Zwicky's daughter Barbarina. It would be good to add information from the interview to this article. She has attacked any and all critics of her father through her lawyers, basically trying to squelch any speech except that which praises her father and his work. She described her father's colleagues as scattering from him as he walked the halls of Caltech because "man can't stand in the light of God". Wow. She's clearly obssessed with her father, and may be doing his memory more harm than good with her lawsuits against his critics. Whatever excellent science Zwicky did should be able to stand on its own, and not protected by threat of legal action. I wonder of the origin of some of the incredibly fawning, un-encyclopedia-like tone of a lot of the material in this Wikipedia article... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.192.220 (talk) 01:51, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I noticed it seems a bit fawning. Like, "Zwicky portrays the hostility and resistance of the scientific community that he continually encountered as a scientific prophet and visionary....Zwicky addresses the mediocracy of so many in the scientific community, who failed to comprehend his theories, thus hindering the advancement of science for many years by rejecting the very theories they now so readily embrace...Zwicky was an extraordinarily original thinker." Maybe he really was a super-genius/visionary hobbled by mediocre minds, but I don't know. It seems a bit one-sided. Judging by what I read of the Discovery article he apparently liked to tout the idea he was a genius and visionary, which if done too much can be counterproductive to being accepted as such.--T. Anthony (talk) 12:46, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Hm. I note that Barbarinaz has also removed without comment much of the material that refers to the difficulties that Zwicky had working with colleagues. I think there is a bad WP:COI here, and the article suffers from it. Both parts of the man need to appear in the biography. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 13:27, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barbarina 

message: You need one of those little speaker icons that pronounces Zwicky when you click it.
M0123042 (talk) 05:42, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronounciation 

message: You need one of those little speaker icons that pronounces Zwicky when you click it.
M0123042 (talk) 05:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The IPA might also be used.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.53.52.40 (talk) 10:15, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronounciation 

message: i was here and its pretty cool  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.188.213.223 (talk) 14:47, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  why is it like thst 

message: At some point the narrative arose that Fritz Zwicky obtained the Palomar's 18-inch corrector plate from Berhard Schmidt himself, but I cannot find an actual source that says he really did. If someone has it, please post a reference here. I started looking for sources about where exactly the optics for the 18-inch were built and I am finding conflicting accounts.
#  Perfect Machine by R. Florence on p. 260, 2nd par: Mt. Wilson optical fabricated the 24" mirror and the 18" corrector plate.
#  But a paper on Don Hendrix (see http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/2003JAHH....6....1O/0000003.000.html) seems to contradict this, even though Hendrix was the wizard of Schmidts in the US in those days. See very beginning of p. 3.
#  Book by Sandage, p. 387: Optics were figured at Caltech. (https://books.google.de/books?id=PCrq8gA0-LsC&pg=PA387&lpg=PA387&dq=18-inch+schmidt+optic&source=bl&ots=qtoRadDzJO&sig=X1peoAjAEwUTt-f_wtPQn2IXCzo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjV-ar86ZfMAhVDG5oKHXl6Dw4Q6AEINDAE#v=onepage&q=18-inch%20schmidt%20optic&f=false)
#  Zwicky himself says that the corrector plate was fabricated in Pasadena, p. 4, 4th par (http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1965fbs..conf....3Z) but he only mentions the mechanics on his 100 supernovae article, p. 2, 2nd column: (http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/2972/1/zwicky.pdf)
#  See this picture at the Caltech Archives. The image is labeled "Focograph of 18” Schmidt plate at beginning of figuring." (http://archives-dc.library.caltech.edu/islandora/object/ct1%3A4901)
I think Florence is wrong on that detail and the optics were *all* made at Caltech.
By looking at the history of the article, I see that it is a very contentious piece. Please rest assured I am not trying to step on any one's toes here, merely trying to find if anyone knows for sure.
Acmejia (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 00:02, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 18-inch Schmidt 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Fritz Zwicky. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110114102243/http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu:80/ to http://cbat.eps.harvard.edu/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110114102243/http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu:80/ to http://cbat.eps.harvard.edu/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:00, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Fritz Zwicky. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100201093915/http://dnesplus.bg/Society.aspx?f=99 to http://dnesplus.bg/Society.aspx?f=99&d=206709
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070630195328/http://www.simonsingh.net/Big_Bang.html to http://www.simonsingh.net/Big_Bang.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 07:50, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Fritz Zwicky. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130927175046/http://www.physicstoday.org/resource/1/phtoad/v27/i6/p70_s1?bypassSSO=1 to http://www.physicstoday.org/resource/1/phtoad/v27/i6/p70_s1?bypassSSO=1
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:51, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Fritz Zwicky. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070714004428/http://www.amnh.org/education/resources/rfl/web/essaybooks/cosmic/p_zwicky.html to http://www.amnh.org/education/resources//rfl/web/essaybooks/cosmic/p_zwicky.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:13, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: According to Kirshner's book the Aerobee was launched October 15 rather than 16. Astroplanet (talk) 11:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aerobee 

message: This section seems a bit out of place, slightly bizarre, an in any case needs a citation or else it should be removed:
:"German colleague Walter Baade claims to have been accused by Zwicky of being a Nazi, and falsely staged complaints that he "feared" Zwicky. Unknown to the public was that Baade was fearful, because he had named a galaxy after himself that was discovered by Zwicky. Edwin Hubble corrected this injustice and the galaxy was catalogued as a Zwicky galaxy."
--TristramBrelstaff (talk) 13:33, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baade "feared" Zwicky