Talk:Trojan language

message: "Jason finds no language barrier with Medea in Colchis, and Trojan Aeneas converses without difficulty both with Punic Dido and with Latin Turnus."
:Medea's family came from Greece. And despite Aneas having no difficulty in conversing with Punics and Latins, Juno (having a dislike for Trojans) pleads Jupiter to allow the Latins to maintain their language. That's Virgil's explanation why the Romans still spoke Latin. Also in the Aeneid, most - if not all - Trojans have Greek names (Nisos, Euryalos, Ilioneus, Gyas etc.).--80.141.243.224 (talk) 19:50, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Medea came from Colchis, though given Hellene ancestors in Hellene myth. Language barriers have no place in epic conventions: that's the point. --Wetman (talk) 22:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Aetes came from Greece. And so did Phrixos whose children also lived in Colchis. In other places, language differences are sometimes mentioned (the Trojans in Latium) but never seem to affect mutual intelligiblity. That's the point.--80.141.209.49 (talk) 15:06, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Language barriers have no place in epic conventions: that's the point. --Wetman (talk) 21:53, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Jason and Aeneas

message: Hi!
below is a translation of a text passage by Gustav Schwab:
:To make sure Helen had come with Paris of her own free will, king Priam sent his wife to her. Helen explained that through her own ancestry she was as closely related to the Trojans as to the Greeks, for Danaos and Agenor were as well her own forefathers as those of the Trojan royal family. 
This clearly indicates that Greeks and Trojans were cousins. Thereby it can be assumed that their languages were mutually intelligible.
Best regards--80.141.225.179 (talk) 21:58, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Reading ethnology directly and uncritically from epic literary texts won't give sensible results. The context of the text passage translated by Schwab counts as strongly as anything it might assert. --Wetman (talk) 06:21, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Danaos and Agenor 

message: HEROES:
Paris (mythology) (Alexandros): < "Par-Ida"  /Par = "pastor", "shepherd" , Ida = Mount Ida
Paris Πάρῐς (nominative) , Paridos Πάρῐδος (genitive), Paridi Πάρῐδῐ (dative), Parida Πάρῐδᾰ (accusative)
Hector = Hektor: means "brother-in-law" (of Helen)
Hecuba = Hekabe: means "mother-in-law" (of Helen) , abe ="mother?"
Helen = Helene /Helena: "Strait" (this is "Dardanelles") <Ela-na Ela/Ila ="strait" ,-na = "having to do with", "place" Ela-na = "the woman of the strait" (in Luwian)
Ilium = Ilion (=Troy) <Il(a)-ion    /Ila = "strait" (in Luwian) , -ion = "place" (in Greek)
also Hellespont < Hellespontos that means: "Sea of Helle (mythology)" In fact, the name of this Helle came from "Ela" = "strait" (in Luwian)
Helenos = Helenus: "Strait" (the male form of the same name!) <Ela-na
Priamus = Priamos: < Pria-uma = "the man in the castle" Pria ="castle" uma ="human" (in Luwian) ~ homo (in Latin/ the same root!)
Cassandra = Kassandra: <Kas-Andra kas = "temple" , andra = "priestess", "woman", "nun" (in Luwian)
more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Luwian_language#Luwian_Gods_and_Goddesses Böri (talk) 11:27, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sources? Paul August ☎ 17:12, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trojans = Luwians 

message: At the previous version, there are citations and corrections. Also I think that all that the citation boxes and notifications are too much. Of course any addition of sources is welcome and will improve the article, but there is not any reason to put notifications everywhere. About the clarify notification, I think that the topic is completely clear: we don't know what language trojans spoke and there are three theories. So I suggest to return at the previous version.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.21.180 (talk) 22:13, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Return to the previous version 

message: All citations (what few there are) in this section are from Homer, written versions of an oral poetic tradition. Requesting citations is fine but this has been around a long time and no valid citations have been added. At this point it's just misleading, especially because it's the very first section on the page, while the least plausible.
It'd be one thing if the section was called "Greek Speculation" but for there to be a section called theory, shouldn't it at least have a single citation expressing a scholarly opinion to that effect? Even at the very least expressing a scholarly opinion that Homer can be read as a historical source? Homer itself can't be the only source, even if it explicitly said the Trojans spoke Greek. (which it doesn't)
I don't mean to sound harsh, but making a section called "Greek Theory," filling it with at best original research, and puffing it up with citations of Homer would be like if I posted another section called "Japanese Theory" and cited the Hebrew Bible's "Tower of Babel" parable as a supporting source.
Also, I don't see how the citations given even express this idea. They don't seem to indicate the points for which they are cited as sources. It says "According to Homer, Trojans shared a common language, religion and customs with the Achaeans." but the citation given only says "Those who want that terrible civil war, have no family, no rule, no home." Which is about as completely irrelevant to the preceding statement as I can imagine.
There's also this gem of blatant conjecture: "...he refers to the Achaeans as subjects of the Greeks (something that might mean that Trojans could be also Greeks)" For one, that is not even what the cited source says. But even if it was, if Achaeans being subject to Greeks means that Trojans could be Greeks, then anything can mean anything, including that Trojans spoke Japanese.
It's true that the Iliad says that the Trojans spoke many languages, to the extent that they sounded like bleating sheep iirc. But this isn't cited anywhere, nor would it indicate that any of those languages were Mycenaean Greek.
Every other statement thereafter is uncited. So nowhere do we get any indication that any linguist has even proposed a Greek hypothesis, much less that there's a competing theory that the Trojans' mother tongue was a Greek language. We just get quotes from Homer, which 1) don't even prove that Homer thought the Trojans spoke Greek, and 2) wouldn't matter even if they did, because the majority of Homeric scholars today suppose that (assuming Homer was a historical person at all) he merely inherited and embellished centuries of oral (mythological) tradition before dictating it to a scribe. Even if Homer explicitly expressed an opinion on the matter, that wouldn't constitute a theory per se.
Aminomancer (talk) 23:31, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. I've replaced the content now with sourced explanation of the main arguments I'm aware of. In the future, you can be bold]-- and of course that goes for any changes you want to make to the new version as well. Botterweg14 (talk) 15:49, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Iliad is an epic, not just a poem. It is similar with the Epic of Gilgamesh. There is a whole debate about if parts of Homer's epics could be used as historical evidence. Homer's epics, are not fiction novels. There are the Greek oral history of that era. Of course, the mythological sections are not true, but the others could make historical sence. So no, you are wrong above... How it's possible to compare "Iliad" with the "Tower of Babel"... The first one it's history with mythological and poetry influence, the second one it's a tale with some symbolic historical meaning. Greek Rebel (talk) 15:08, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Greek Rebel, please check Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (history). Iliad is not and could be not WP:RS. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 15:58, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:   What if I add this information at the section "in ancient Greek Epics" that I created? It could be part of such as this, because I would have declare that this theory is based at the epics. Greek Rebel (talk) 20:01, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  There shouldn't be a "Greek Theory" section at all when there is no cited theory?