Talk:Battle of Long Tan

message: This article needs a major paring down. I am adding a  tag. Please do not remove it. 
I need to remind the editors that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not an exhaustive, unabridged history book. Please refer to Wikipedia:Article size to review strategies on reducing this article to a manageable length. Please do your best to address this issue. And please let me know if you need assistance. Best, Kingturtle = (talk) 15:01, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that the detailed literature on this topic supports detailed coverage, one option would be to spin some aspects out into sub-articles (for instance, the assessment section) Nick-D (talk) 08:43, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that's a great idea. Copy editing the article (which is definitely necessary) will still leave the article much too big. We don't want to chop up parts and throw them away. Instead, finding ways to break it up into sub-articles would work best. Kingturtle = (talk) 14:32, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This criticism is of course a valid one, although some effort has been made to reduce it over time (its gone from approx 220 kb in Jul 2012 to 177 kb now). I've long had plans to continue its downsizing but perhaps due to my proximity to the project don't seem to have been successful. Anyway I will have another look at areas where some reduction can occur (for instance Nick's suggestion). You mention that a copy edit is req'd - is this something you are volunteering to do? I've probably spent hundreds of hours on this and have copy-edited it extensively; however, as a result my eyes don't pick up the mistakes anymore so I imagine it could do with someone else looking over it. That said unless you are familiar with the topic I'd request some care be taken before deleting content as I think most of it is relevant. Thanks. Anotherclown (talk) 20:55, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, there will of course be difficulty reducing the narrative, too, given the many different interpretations of some of the events. Some hiving off, as Nick suggests, may be the best way to go, but I would be concerned by an approach that sees wholesale cutting without regard to maintaining the current cohesion. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 01:53, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Since I'm guessing this is going to become an issue again (following the recent drive by tagging with no further discussion by IP 101), to (belatedly) summarize the progress since the issue was first raised over 5,000 bytes was reduced from the aftermath section of the article in May with these edits  making it approx. 173kb. According to the DYK tool it is now 23,601 words (so significantly less than the 27,000 words per the heading of this discussion). I agree it is still a lengthy article though of cse, although given the breadth of the writing on the matter it is difficult to summarize so many view points in less I'd argue. In this regard I acknowledge the previous (very helpful) suggestion above from Nick about a possible means of further reduction and have looked over this for hours over the last few months trying to work out how to retain the narrative whilst splitting the assessment section out into another article but have been unsuccessful. That said if someone else can suggest how this might be achieved I would be more than happy to work with them on a draft article in a sandbox. Regardless, the article is by no means the largest around (there are many articles well over 200 kb or more, indeed our longest is 784kb!). Anotherclown (talk) 10:40, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Good effort, AC. I agree that it brevity is hard in this situation given that so many works have been produced, and within those there are often differences of opinion. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:40, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, per my post below to add to the literature available Harry Smith will soon also publish a book. Anotherclown (talk) 09:54, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: On the occasion of the release of the new film on the Battle, I want to re-raise this issue 5 years down the track: this article is much, much, much too long. I came to it today with an interest generated by that film, and feel like I will have to leave again without being able to satisfy that interest because it is impossible to get an overview of the subject from this article, even if and perhaps especially if you spend the necessary time - an hour? more? - reading the whole thing. In response to the claim that it is an inherently complicated subject: there is no subject that is not inherently complicated. The complexity of a subject grows with the level of attention paid to it. In other words, an encyclopedia is inherently inadequate to the complexity of a subject and contributors need to accept that limitation and trust that readers also understand that limitation. I beg those who are authorities on this subject to try to step back a little from the trees and see the wood for the sake of readers. It is hard to simplify a subject when you are acquainted with its complexity, but try to see this process as an art rather than a compromise and realise this article does your subject no favours if it turns readers away.Faff296 (talk) 02:05, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

text: As a reference point, the Wiki article on the Battle of the Somme, which took place over 4 and a half months, is half the length of this article.Faff296 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 02:30, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

text: - re-pinging due to miscapitalized name. ansh666 12:59, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: G'day, I'm not sure I agree with the parallel that you draw here. The Battle of Midway article is 8,900 words, with a lead of 366 words (about 4.1 percent), whereas this has a 1,050 word lead for a 22,500 word article (about 4.6 percent) so I'd argue they are basically the same ratios. Regardless, this has been discussed before (see Talk:Battle of Long Tan/Archive 2), and the consensus then was that the lead length was within reason. There is probably some room to prune a little further (maybe 100 words or so), but unless the scope of the article is to be changed (which would be very difficult IMO), overall I'd argue that the length of the lead is reasonable given the breadth of the topic etc. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:43, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not exactly the length of the lead section per se, but rather the content of the lead section, as per MOS:LEAD which for example states  - which it is absolutely not, it is as dense or perhaps even more dense as the rest. It is important to remember that the lead is a way to provide a brief summary of the important points, not a point-by-point regurgitation of the article. This is where the Midway article's lead should be used as an example: it doesn't get bogged down in an "at x hours y planes from z carrier attacked w ship in v location" point-by-point reconstruction of the battle, but instead focuses on the larger picture. Reading the lead section of this article, I have no idea of why this battle is even important enough to have a 22k word article compared to the 9k-word-long Midway, which more or less changed the course of an entire war. ansh666 01:36, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

text: Gday Ansh666. I'm a bit vexed by this one to be honest. Whilst I agree that the lead was very detailed, this occurred for a variety of reasons, not least of which is because of the large amount that has been written about the topic and the many different interpretations / assessments of the battle. FWIW previous iterations of the lead were criticized by other editors for lacking detail, or being inaccurate due to being too general in their summary. The consequence was that the lead adopted was an attempt to write a measured and exact summary of a large article, and was as a result, itself long. That said IRT your comment about "accessibility" I can see your point, and I think your suggestion about restructuring it has considerable merit. Specifically, removing the "blow by blow" focus of the lead so that only the key points are presented to the reader. With this in mind I spent a few hours last night drafting something which is approx. 630 words (as opposed to 1050 words of the original). However, I'm now concerned that perhaps it omits too much so I'm going to have to think on this one a bit further. Anotherclown (talk) 01:11, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Per the above I've now rewritten a lead which is approx. 650 words - per this edit . I remain a little uneasy with some of the compromises that were required in regards to coverage in the search for brevity so if others think it has been too brutal please let me know. AR - thank you for your initial efforts here, you gave me a number of ideas for my draft. What is your opinion of my changes? Specifically do you think it sufficiently covers the key events, or do you think I have left something out? Thanks again. Anotherclown (talk) 07:50, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: G'day, AC, I made a minor tweak, but your rewrite looks fine to me. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:15, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks a lot better to me, thanks for all your work guys! Sorry I can't help, it's the week before spring break at my university which means a midterm and project for every class due in the next 4 days... ansh666 00:44, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  27,000 words is much too much 

message: FYI - there is a forthcoming book by Harry Smith, Long Tan: The Start of a Lifelong Battle, due out in August 2015 from Big Sky Publishing . Given his (obviously) key role in the battle I would imagine this book will prove to be an important addition to the works that have already been written on this event. My intention is to acquire a copy with a view to incorporating material if req'd (I am of cse fully aware of the size issue with this article already though so I'd be planning of do so sparingly). Anotherclown (talk) 08:20, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Come to think of it (without having seen the book yet) I imagine some of the material may be better off at Harry Smith (Australian soldier) anyway. Anotherclown (talk) 08:33, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Forthcoming book by Harry Smith - ''Long Tan: The Start of a Lifelong Battle'' - Big Sky Publishing, August 2015 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Battle of Long Tan. Please take a moment to review my edit. You may add  after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.news.com.au/the-ghosts-of-long-tan/story-e6frfzg9-1111112148634
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 19:17, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Battle of Long Tan. Please take a moment to review my edit. You may add  after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.news.com.au/the-ghosts-of-long-tan/story-e6frfzg9-1111112148634
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 04:55, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: This was already archived. I've marked it as failed. Anotherclown (talk) 10:04, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: User:Ernieacorn has posted a number of comments on possible changes or corrections based on his recently published book The Viet Cong D445 Battalion: Their Story. Although I reverted the comments which were made directly to the article, I appreciate the time taken to make them and I'm posting the diff here  for possible discussion. From my perspective the article as it currently stands is based on the bulk of the sources available up to recently, and while it seems that some aspects may be treated differently by the new source I'm reticent to make changes at this stage unless other sources / new scholarship emerges which supports a new interpretation. Anotherclown (talk) 09:12, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible changes from new book - The Viet Cong D445 Battalion: Their Story etc 

message: Per previous discussion on this talk page I have now split out the "Assessment" section by moving the bulk of the text to a new article called Assessment of the Battle of Long Tan - done with this edit . I have done this IOT reduce the overall size of this article in the hope of making it more accessible, and because this aspect of the topic would seem to be able to sustain a separate article in its own right due to the large amount of material available (i.e. books, articles and journals etc - including from a number of participants). If interested editors are able to review what I have removed from this article IOT ensure I haven't thrown out anything important (i.e. information that is best kept here for the readers' understanding etc.) and that what remains is still intelligible that would be appreciated. Also I'd welcome someone having a look at the new article and making comments and / or additions etc. Thanks. Anotherclown (talk) 03:00, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: G'day, good idea. Overall, it looks good to me. I think you might need to attribute some of the quotes or opinions in text a little more, though. For instance, "Vietnamese account is available, while those that exist are contradictory or unreliable" --> according to "X", etc. Thanks for your ongoing efforts with this article. Must be a nightmare to maintain. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:31, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ack - thanks for having a look over it, I'll look to address these issues shortly. Anotherclown (talk) 04:01, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Gday AR - sorry it took a while but I have added some attribution now. Pls see my edits here . Anotherclown (talk) 23:36, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split out of Assessment section 

message: There is another new book covering the battle that's recently been published which might be useful as a potential source. I'm posting it here for possible future use / discussion:
*  Anotherclown (talk) 21:34, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potential source - ''The Battle of Long Tan: Australia's Four Hours of Hell in Vietnam'' (2016) by David Cameron 

message: The recent removal of material from Independent Australia concerns me as they have a doctorally qualified history editor ( https://independentaustralia.net/about/ and subpages ). My reading is that this makes the claim toward the lower end of HQRS. However, the claim may need someone with BLP experience to check over a single well—the main reason why I've not duplicated the claim here. Other editors may have useful opinions, and WEIGHT may Ben an issue, but given 11 Platoon's narrative importance I doubt WEIGHT would be a reason for removal. Comments? Fifelfoo (talk) 04:40, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The source is a political blog of very dubious journalistic standards. Material is often lifted from other more reliable sources and republished as if it were exclusive. Perhaps the original source could be found and used here? --Pete (talk) 05:58, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

text: Looking further into the IA article, it is not a reliable source for BLP material. There seems to be some personal animosity extending into legal threats between the author and one of his targets. --Pete (talk) 06:06, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: cheers. Agree on BLP. The source isn't reliable for that type of claim. Fifelfoo (talk) 06:43, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rs Independent Australia vs potential BLP reason 

message: I (Martin Walsh) am the researcher and producer of THE BATTLE OF LONG TAN documentary and the upcoming feature film DANGER CLOSE: The Battle of Long Tan. I am a former special forces soldier from 2 Commando Company, 1 Commando Regiment.
Since 2004, I have conducted 12 years of detailed and methodical research including interviewing more than 100 Australian, New Zealand and American participants of this battle and four former North Vietnamese Army, 275 Viet Cong Main Force Regiment and D445 Viet Cong Mobile Provincial Battalion soldiers in Vietnam. Not only have I had access to extraordinary primary sources of official and non-official documents, including classified and no longer classified material, I have also had access to private diaries of senior commanders such as Brigadier David Jackson. 
Using many primary sources and first hand interviews I recreated the entire timeline of the battle, in minute detail.
Many years ago (2007 onwards) when there was very little on this page I tried to contribute some of the research and very quickly the page dissolved into agenda driven edits most times using either discredited sources or using sources disingenuously.
For example:
I have known Lt Colonel Harry Smith since 2004. Over the past few years, mostly due to senior age of some of the veterans, some of the veterans have on occasions either tried to introduce new, or exaggerated, some facts. I know based on my own thorough research what the foundational facts are and how they haven't changed since around 2012 or so. However, Harry Smith and others have been introduced to some unreliable sources and instead of properly vetting these sources, they re-transmit them word for word, e.g. captured enemy diaries or documents.
The only use of the word 'fabrications' or the like by Lt Colonel Harry Smith relate to the citations for the awards to Brigadier David Jackson and Lt Colonel Colin Townsend, both citations used to justify their awards are factually incorrect.
Terry Burstall has been discredited by both professional military historians and most participants of the battle. Terry was a private soldier in 12 Platoon, 6RAR and was in a section further most from the actual combat during the battle. No private soldier was allowed, let alone did, walk the battlefield to make his own assessment of the number of NVA/VC dead. Terry's claims of '...deliberate inflation of enemy dead by Army Spokesmen and others...' is just not true or based on any facts or even primary sources including himself. His own Platoon Commander Lt Dave Sabben said it is ridiculous that Burstall claims any enemy body count because other than patrolling into the Long Tan rubber plantation the next day and passing enemy dead, Burstall was in no position to wander the battlefield, make his own sweeping assessments of enemy dead and as a Private soldiers was certainly never connected to or in a position to gain access to official or non-official enemy body counts. 
A Private soldier knows what is happening 10 metres in front of him and 10 metres either side of him, that is it. Burstall was not being given comprehensive updates of the battle during the battle or even afterwards, let alone a definitive count of NVA/VC dead which completely contradicted the official Australian Army body count. It was not until Lex McAulay's book, 'The Battle of Long Tan' published in the late 1980's that anyone had any really comprehensive understanding of this battle from both sides. 
The only persons to have ever questioned the official NVA/VC body count have been the Communist Vietnamese Government and Terry Burstall.
The reference under 'Casualties and losses'; "D-Coy Commander: Less than 50 bodies counted[1]" is entirely wrong. Terry Burstall, a Private Soldier, not a 'D-Coy Commander' was the person in that referenced article who said, 'Looking back I don't really think that I would have seen more than 50 bodies and I spent three days in the area." 
Controversial Sources
In every war/conflict there are exaggerations but there is also reality. Dictatorships and non-democratic ideologically driven governments have well known and well documented histories of spreading completely false, exaggerated or even understating the facts of specific engagements or incidents. Australia and New Zealand do not have any history of exaggerating enemy body counts either in Vietnam War or any contemporary conflicts. In fact, ANZAC troops went to extraordinary lengths to document and record the locations of all enemy dead and burial locations which in fact became a major story on Australian television because Australia was able to repatriate personal items and documents recovered from NVA/VC as they were buried. Further, the Communist Government spread propaganda that the NVA/VC units at the Battle of Long Tan had killed hundreds of Australians, destroyed a number of tanks and shot down aircraft. It was not until the Australian 60 Minutes story which I initiated and provided all the connections for, that two of the former D445 VC commanders finally admitted that Australia actually 'won the battle', but that 'we won the war'. So relying upon or presenting documents, official or non-official from the NVA/VC side must include qualifications about false, exaggerated and understated information in order to properly inform readers of this article. 
There is also no reference whatsoever to the well known and well documented tactic of the NVA and VC going to extraordinary lengths to remove wounded, dead and their own weapons from the battlefield, both during and after an engagement, to deny the American/Australian alliance of intelligence and information as to the enemy strengths, dispositions and casualties as a result of an engagement. The high number of NVA/VC bodies left on the battlefield at Long Tan and the extraordinarily high number of NVA/VC weapons captured on the battlefield is further evidence of the size of the NVA/VC forces and the terrible casualties they sustained. 
The text in the article, 'There are also additional issues with the fabrication of the size of the attacking NVA/VC forces and enemy dead by several authors and by the Red Dunes Film Group, which has received criticism from an Australian Vietnam War veteran and later historian and Vietnamese-language linguist Ernie Chamberlain' relates only to Ernie and my own differences in the total number of NVA/VC forces reported as participating in the battle. There has never been any definitive evidence of the actual numbers of NVA/VC forces in the battle of Long Tan and like myself, the AWM, the Army History Unit, Ernie himself, and others, as corroborated evidence has come to hand we adjust our own information and statements. As Ernie Chamberlain says himself, 'The seemingly macabre and petty “accounting” related above is perhaps not particularly relevant to the main story of that fierce Battle in August 1966. Others might wish to challenge the figures offered above, and are of course free to do so. However, I believe that we owe it to the soldiers who fell – on both sides, to relate all aspects of the story of the Battle of Long Tân as accurately as possible.' Unfortunately this Wikipedia entry has devolved into ideological and agenda driven editing. I am not necessarily 100% right on the numbers of NVA/VC forces who participated in the battle of Long Tan but neither is Ernie. I can only rely upon what the four former NVA/VC commanders and soldiers from the battle of Long Tan personally told me in Vietnam in 2006 and the information gained from official and non-official documents, intelligence sources and eye witness testimony - which I can corroborate.
Reddunefilms (talk) 04:02, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately any account on Wikipedia of PAVN/VC losses is tainted by association with US body count inflation, with little attention given to the laughable propaganda claims made by the PAVN/VC at the time and up to the present day. This page is far too long and detailed for a relatively minor action and it seems that multiple participants have written accounts of it all giving their own differing versions of events, so I'm not optimistic that any agreed position will ever be reached. I'm looking forward to seeing your film. regards Mztourist (talk) 10:20, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disingenuous use of sources 

message: GAN should be withdrawn as this page clearly fails 3b of the six good article criteria, i.e. it does not stay focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail. Mztourist (talk) 08:40, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is completely focused on the battle, and never strays into other issues.  Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:19, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It is overlong and goes into too much detail in breach of Wikipedia:Summary style. Mztourist (talk) 06:22, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that the two AfDs you launched motivated by a view that this battle is covered in too much attention on Wikipedia were closed as keep, this is basically disruptive conduct. I'd suggest that you pick a different hobby horse. Nick-D (talk) 09:02, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Not disruptive conduct at all. I launched one AFD and another User launched another which I supported. This GAN appears to have been motivated by those AFDs, particularly in light of this exchange you had with the nom on 20 February: . I have in the past worked to reduce the size of this page and it just keeps getting bloated up with more additions by Australian Users. Mztourist (talk) 10:41, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  GAN February 2020

message: I offer great respect to those who fought there, but I’m sorry, there’s just no way that Long Tan can be considered to be of similar significance to Gallipoli.  And probably not Kokoda, either.   The statement that it is sits towards the end of the overlong 1st para of the Assessment subsection to the Aftermath section.  I know, the statement is cited, but it doesn’t make it right.  They can’t be many people in the country who’ve not heard about Gallipoli, but most will be unaware of Long Tan.  I’m going to remove it in a few days if there are no justifiable objections. Boscaswell talk 04:11, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Forget about your opinion. WP:Verifiability not truth. What do the sources say? Long Tan ranks in the annals of Australian military lore alongside Gallipoli and Kokoda.  Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:13, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Its not uncommon for a country to have one or two battles in a war that are regarded as the most iconic of the whole conflict. Rightly or wrongly Long Tan appears to have acheived that status for Australia's Vietnam War. Comparing iconic battles of one conflict with iconic battles of another conflict is specious. Totally subjective - an Australian friend's kid's recent school trip to Vietnam visited Long Tan, so I contest that its not well known and the military history shelves of Aussie bookshops bend under the weight of Long Tan books. If anything Kapyong, a far more militarily significant battle, is forgotten.  Mztourist (talk) 06:37, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, remember the Alamo? Long Tan has attracted more attention than any other Australian battle in Vietnam, although it is not the biggest or most important Australian action. It is often taught in staff college, and the first volume of the Vietnam official history (ten volumes compared to two for Korea) is titled To Long Tan (a homage to the first of the World War II series, To Benghazi). The war in Vietnam has attracted a lot more attention from the Australian historians than Korea, and for that matter, more than World War II apart from Kokoda. Kapyong is the best known Australian battle in the Korean War, for what it is worth; the story is usually trotted out on Anzac Day along with Villers-Bretonneux, another battle fought on Anzac Day.  Hawkeye7 (discuss) 12:27, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Of similar significance to Gallipoli? 

message: I have noticed this has been on the list for a while, and I have looked at this in the past with a view to reviewing, but have paused for a number of reasons:
*its length, it is 8% over the readable prose size of 100KB, this is also a strong indication that it is too detailed for an article written in summary style. For example, there is an Assessment of the Battle of Long Tan article, but the Assessment section is four long paras. For a company-sized action occurring on one day, this is just too large and too detailed. Coral-Balmoral went on over three weeks and involved two full battalions, considerable armoured support and on-site guns, and it only runs to 72KB (it is probably a little too detailed in parts)   
*while most of the citations are to academic quality history like the official history and Palazzo, there are quite a few to participant accounts not independent of the subject (per WP:PRIMARY), including Burstall, Buick, and Smith, and there are other less-than-academic books that are used a fair bit, like Ham. I think McAulay 1986 is ok for the nuts and bolts stuff, but getting a bit old given the additional work that has gone on since it was published, including the official history
*the use of anzacday.org.au education material as a source
*the use of Chamberlain's work which is mostly self-published (what editorial oversight or academic review has there been of what he has written?)
These issues would need to be addressed before I would review it. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 08:31, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: *Also, I'd like to note that Burstall does not seem at all reliable, given the information upthread in the talk page, for body counts. He doesn't seem to be an authoritative source on matters beyond his direct experience. Kges1901 (talk) 10:57, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Per my comments above, I agree that the page is too long and it clearly fails 3b of the six good article criteria, i.e. it does not stay focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail. Mztourist (talk) 11:07, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: What parts of the article are unrelated to the subject?  Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:16, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not what I said, the article is clearly focussed on the battle, it just goes into too much detail and lacks summary style. Whole paras should be summarised into a sentence or two. The level of detail makes it far too long. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 02:34, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, so the low hanging fruit has been dealt with by splitting off a section into a sub article. I don't see any other bits that deserve their own sub article, or off-topic material, so two of us have gone through removing verbage. The article has thereby been reduced to 98K.  Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:38, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre-GAN comments 

message: I noticed that the article is written entirely on a autralian/american perspective. Although most of our sources are from this side, and the only good communist is a dead one, I believe we should refrain from using terms like "enemy", "opposing force" and the likes to describe the loosing side of the battle. I replaced the few instances I noticed with neutral and descriptive term "communist". Feel free to improve and diversify on this. Francis1867 (talk) 05:41, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral point of view