Talk:Lancet surveys of Iraq War casualties/Archive 3

message: Timeshifter is trying to put in a new argument illustrating a similarity in IBC and Lancet trends. If you choose to exclude the invasion (March-April 2003) from IBC, then (and only then) does IBC show a steady rise year on year. The claim is that the two sources show the same trends, but Timeshifter is trying to hold this claim together by just chopping stuff out of IBC which doesn't conform to the claim. While it may be easy to prove claims if you're allowed to just conceal any data which contradicts the claims, it hardly seems credible or honest.
His comparison conceals the fact that that IBC's data shows 2003 rates are higher than 2004 or 2005 rates, while Lancet's full data suggests 2003 rates are the *lowest*. That's a big difference in the trends concealed by Timeshifter's version.
The Lancet graph compares per-year rates. If doing that, IBC's trends are not the same. They are very different. If you start taking stuff selectively out of IBC and doing a different comparison - one not done in the Lancet, then yes, you can see some similarity too. But there's still the differences as described above.
And even if doing it Timeshifter's way there seems to be a pretty big difference in the *degree* by which the sources rise. Just because both sources rise to some degree or other doesn't mean they "corroborate" each other's findings about trends over time. It looks to me like Lancet's trends increase much faster than IBC's. Thus, if plotted on a graph, and even if using Timeshifter's cherry-picked version of IBC data, IBC's line would still not closely track the slope of Lancet's line the way it appears to do in the original Lancet graph. The two lines would both rise to some degree, but they would diverge sharply in terms of the degree of rise and suggest much different rates of increase.
Also, comparisons need to be consistent. The year by year periods Timeshifter is using from IBC are not the same periods illustrated in the Lancet graph. The comparison in the Lancet graph uses 13 month periods starting in March 2003. The IBC figures Timeshifter is using use a 9 month period (2003) and then three 12 month periods (2004, 2005 and 2006). And the last six months of the 2006 period in IBC is not in the Lancet study, because it was done in June 2006. 
If a wiki editor were going to try to tackle all this and try to give original comparisons it would be difficult and a lot of calculations would be required to show the proper trend lines. And It would be all original research on our part. It would be 'interpretation' by wiki editors, not sourced facts.74.73.39.219 01:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You yourself said that the Lancet authors said in their letter that a month-by-month graph would show their points. But you haven't put that quote here yet. You only selectively quote. Why not just copy the whole letters here? And why are you using a user name and an anonymous IP to revert the article? You are now close to another WP:3RR violation. --Timeshifter 01:40, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've created an account. My connection went down earlier and re-set, which seems to reset my IP address. I'll try from now on to post using this account, but i sometimes seem to get logged out by mistake if my browser gets locked up and I have to close it. Regardless, I've already explained why I didn't quote all the comments about this from the letters. I did not quote this part from the Guha-Sapir letter nor the Authors reply. Nor did I say that the Authors said that a "month-by-month graph would show" anything. I'd be happy to do so but in order to do so I'd need to upload the graph in the Guha-Sapir letter, which I've not figured out how to do. If you can do that, please do. Follow the links, create a free account on the Lancet website and read them. You're pretending that I have access to secret material. I don't. You're just *choosing* not to go read it in order to be deliberately obtuse and create confusion.Seigfried4220 03:02, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Similarities and Differences in Lancet and IBC trends

message: As Benwing wrote previously about placing the graph in this article: "[a] it shouldn't be present at all, or [b] it should go down in the criticism section as an example of something that the lancet authors screwed up,"
The same logic holds true for putting the graph in Casualties of the conflict in Iraq since 2003. There is no devoted criticism section in that article. Criticisms are blended into the article. Putting that graph in that article without the explanatory info will just confuse people. And it would be a needless duplication of the same material. --Timeshifter 22:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think there was anything there to "confuse" people, aside from the graph itself, which the new caption correctly explained was erroneous and misleading, which would help prevent the confusion. But I'm ok with taking it off that page.Seigfried4220 03:42, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lancet graph in other articles.

message: Seigfried4220 (or 74.73.39.219) is currently on a binge inserting POV, and/or deleting sourced info, on several Iraq War casualty pages. 
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Seigfried4220 
:Good lord. Talk about pot, kettle, black. (Sorry for interrupting your important contributions about IP addresses)Seigfried4220 05:34, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I operate openly. Not behind multiple anonymous IP addresses so that I can come back and create more problems by deleting the same sourced info without being noticed as much. --Timeshifter 06:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You operate deceitfully. You've repeatedly lied about what I've said and now this. I've explained several times now that my IP changes by itself. Yet you're circulating this form letter around to try to imply that I'm doing something underhanded with IP shifting. That's just a deceitful smear campaign.Seigfried4220 07:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And btw..posting under "Timeshifter" is still operating *anonymously*.Seigfried4220 07:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Stop with the personal attacks. I may report you to the appropriate incident board. See my user page for links to the wikipedia policies and boards. You have been asked numerous times to get a user name. Now finally after your IP changes 4 times (that I know of) you finally get a user name. --Timeshifter 08:34, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seigfried4220 and 4 previous anonymous IP addresses