Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/El kondor pada

message: Song notability Criteria, proposed guideline in wikipedia, relevant in this case
Lets see what a proposal for a guideline (best that we have) says:
A song may be notable if it meets one or more of the following standards. If a song meets three or more of these standards, it is probably notable; if it meets two, it is a good candidate for notability, and if it meets one, it may border on notablity.
*Has appeared in the Top 20 of a national singles chart in a large or medium sized country 
:It has been a hit during nato bombing in Serbia, so certainly one of the 20 - this can be checked by contacting by e-mail radio stations b92 (www.freeb92.net), radio index, etc. who can confirm that the song was played during the bombing extensively. Also, listed here  as one of the few examples of art in the NATO period (this link is perhaps more relevant in establishing media campagn); as there are no online links establishing popularity directly, verifiability can be best met with contacting the journalists - freeb92 is one of the most popular radio stations, and it is the way to proceed and confirm what Serbian people here say for those who dispute their claims.
*Charted in the Top 100 of a national singles chart in a large or medium sized country, for at least six months (need not be consecutive) 
:I am not sure if this is formally met as there are probably not such charts, but in Serbia, it was popular for quite a few months during and after the bombing, well in the top 100; if there were some charts, it might be possible to dig them up - but system in Serbia is different, and what songs were broadcasted would be the best information that exists. But, under reasonable interpretation, this is clearly true.
*Is a song that helped define a specific genre of music 
:Not the case
*Is the signature song of a performer 
:Yes, index theatre have made few dozen songs, and this is one of their most well known. one can verify that from the index theatre themselves (contact e-mail address provided above). I can also offer several links poiting to this. First link, from balkan repository project:
 - song is included in 3 Index hits during NATO war. Second, they have published CDs 'Gotov je!' and 'oprostajni koncert' on which this song is one of their 10 choices (the main hits of theirs) - it is a fairwall sort of compilation, so this testifies about the importance of the song for indexovci; you can google it, for instance here it is sold,  - note that the song is listed first!
*Is a historically notable song for being the first to do something interesting, stylistically or technologically 
:No
*Helped launch a notable record label 
:No
*Has been officially released in at least one remixed version and/or has been the subject of a music video that played on a major music network and/or was the subject of a major publicity campaign 
:Yes. It has been published on two compilations and there was a music video - as evidenced by the article from newspapers in '99, quoted above , that talks about music video being recorded, as well as a major publicity campaign - in fact, anti-nato sponsored propaganda effort; also evidenced in this newspapers article , corroborated by many users here.
*Has been placed on a "best of" or "most influential" list from a major music media source 
:I am not exactly sure what is meant here - probably not (what is a major music media source). It has been among "best of" (or the best of) Index songs, is one of the "best of" NATO-war songs, it is on the compilation Oprostajni koncert (evidence provided) but I am not sure if it meets formally the criterion. It was not considered "influential" in some musical sense though.
*Has been downloaded a high number of times through digital download websites 
:This is also the case. Numerous tribute pages and mp3 links for it provided source for download, and it has been downloaded by many users in ex-Yu and Serbs in the world. However, what high number of times means, is relative. The exact quotes might be available from some sites, like nostalgija.com  - warning - this site has popups; it is a site where much of the ex-yu music can be downloaded (piracy or not - it is the way many people get music from such sites, and one can get a quote from them and get an idea about relative popularity of the song); there are other sites that offer free download, some mentioned above. 
*Is a particularly well-known song from a piece of musical theater, radio, film or television 
:As Indexovci are also a comic theater troup, they have incorporated this song in piece of theatar - that is what they do with all of their songs. No quote yet though - might be available from the indexovci group directly; we have their e-mail, so this is verifiable. also, there is a video of their play with the songs - sold here, cover shown and a synopsis, testifying about this:
The synopsis:
Snimak predstave u Banjaluci odrzane 2001 godine .Na ovoj kaseti cete cuti I sve ove pesme obrade -El kondor pada,Sta ce mi zivot bez tople vode,Narasli su dugovi,Kada pocnem drugi dnevnik ja,Madlenka,Ja sam ja I oni su oni,Mi smo mi,Donatori gde ste da ste,Govovi se da me vavas,Lepa li je Dano vlast u krugu dvojke,Taze tursija,Sanjala sam nocas da te nema,Zazmuri,Doslo je do krvi,Ne odlazim,Kad sam gladan,Igra ruski rulet srpska Jugoslavija,Zamislim zivot u kom enosis nove cipele,Prica o Bobi Vladackom,Kasno je za brzu prugu,Stranci u Peci
Translates: a recording of the play held in Banja Luka in 2001; you will get to hear their songs: El kondor pada (notice it was listed first), Sta ce mi zivot bez tople vode (what do I need life with no hot water), Narasli su dugovi (debts have grown)...(list of other songs performed during this musical play). 
In short, it seems that there are quite a few criteria met, and some are completely documented at this point as well. So, it reiterates the notability claim; nothing to say of the larger war context. BabaRera 16:20, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Establishing that the song is a notable song 

message: What about [Wikipedia:WikiProject Music/Notability and Music Guidelines/Songs]? Balcer 20:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, as I said at the main page, it only establishes existence, not notability.  User:Zoe|(talk) 23:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: what would establish notability for you? there is no accepted guidline here. The song was broadcasted a lot at the time, etc. - as many people from Serbia claim. Such claims can be verified, by contacting radio stations in question. Are you not assuming good faith with regard to claims of people who are saying that the songs were broadcasted? The radio schedules are documented, and so are newspapers etc, and they do not have to be online to be verifiable BabaRera 00:08, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  From main page, the proposal for notability of songs 

message: This Song is a Serbian propaganda agais NATO. The text of the song is atacing the West civilisation.--Hevnonen 22:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I too agree with BabeRera on this. Moreover, it does not matter whether the song is famous in English. It is at least famous in the Serbian language. Also there are many famous non-English songs out there as well. --Siva1979Talk to me 08:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This song is propaganda 

message: There are a few newspapers that have still articles from 1999 online, but there are quite a few testimonial pages that testify about song's popularity. For instance, , and many other google hits testify that people cared
about this song.
:That link just says the song exists.  User:Zoe|(talk) 23:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It says that this guy considered it important enough to put it on his war-related page. It can serve as a source about itself, per wiki policies, and it indeed is mentioned here as a source about the existence of fan pages, proving that song was liked and connected with the bombing sentiment. Not only that the song exists (in fact, it does not serve as much of a proof for that, as it can be used only as a primary source about itself; unlike newspaper articles, that mention the song, and the CD, which is being sold, that prove the song existance, strictly according to policies here )BabaRera 00:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It says that this guy liked the song, it doesn't say anything about whether or not anybody else did.  I can create a blog listing my favorite songs, but that's nothing concerning their notability.  User:Zoe|(talk) 02:07, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It says only about what that guy feels, true. But it is not the only link like that. If it does not prove that song is notable, it certainly coroborates the claims made by Serbian editors. Evidence as this are accepted even at courts, perhaps as circumstantial evidence, but still - to say that google hits and tribute pages say nothing about the notability of the song is simply not true. This particular page is clearly motivated by bombing, was not edited since 2000, and hence says a lot about the context and background of this song - if by a means of an example. But it is not the only example. Number of Google hits does say something about relevance, and in fact is frequently used to quick-check notability on many AfD pages; so I dont see why this argument would carry no weight here! BabaRera 02:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Evidence about the song popularity

message: Doesn't some administrator type want to step in and render a judgment on this?  Last time the trigger finger was so itchy, after all.  Profnjm 04:21, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a five day period for discussion. The article is kept unless there is concensus not to keep it. How is that concensus (to delete it) established, is up to admin to judge. It is not a vote, and it has to take into account the discussion. However, in cases when there is no concensus the article remains, per wikipedia policies. BabaRera 05:06, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Isn't it time for a decision?