Talk:Voiced pharyngeal fricative

message: Changed "Many languages claiming to have pharyngeal fricatives or approximants" to "Many languages claimed to ...", since languages, qua abstract entities, presumably do not go around claiming anything. Orcoteuthis 18:47, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Claimed occurencres

message: Doesn't this sound also exist in French (in the pronunciation of "r" or "rr")? Badagnani (talk) 20:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The French sound is Uvular. If a speaker has a pharyngeal realization, it's probably ideolectal.— Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 21:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

text: No, because this sound isn't anything like the typical French <r>, and should not sound like that even to the English-speaking ear. The sound recording in the article doesn't reflect native pronunciation, which might be why it sounds like that to you. A common mistake that non-native speakers/learners of this sound make is using a more velar or uvular place of articulation. — Zerida ☥ 06:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There's nothing wrong with putting sourced information about the accoustical properties of this or other sounds on Wikipedia.  But this is sourced information, not original research about how it sounds like other similar consonants to English speakers.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 06:23, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the source for the claim that a native-spoken voiced pharyngeal fricative sounds like a uvular fricative to English speakers? — Zerida ☥ 06:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I know of no source that makes that argument.  Even if sources like those used at non-native pronunciations of English can be found that argue that English speakers have difficulty with such sounds, it's still a POV issue here.  That's why I'd argue against it.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 07:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

text: I speak french and it's true, in some areas in France (not in Quebec, Belgium, Switzerland and Africa), the "guttural r" is pronounced like a voiced pharyngeal fricative. It's "dialectal".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.129.51.169 (talk) 00:27, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: How would speaking French prompt you to know that?  Or do you know of a source? — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 05:09, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: In French?

message: The sound sample is more like a voiced velar fricative (associated with the Arabic letter ghain غ) than the sound the article talks about (one associated with the Arabic letter 'ain ع). The dotting difference between the two Arabic letters may have brought about the error. A new sound sample may be needed. --AMSA83 22:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have changed the sample with one I recorded.-- AMSA83 19:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

text: The recorded sound still doesn't correspond with the Semitic 'ain. I will replace it myself with the proper one.--Rafy talk 10:21, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sound sample and article do not match!!!! 

message: I have tagged :File:Voiced_pharyngeal_fricative1.ogg, which is in use in this article for deletion because it does not have a copyright tag. If a copyright tag is not added within seven days the image will be deleted. --Chris 07:09, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Copyright tag added as needed. --AMSA83 12:26, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:File:Voiced_pharyngeal_fricative1.ogg]] may be deleted 

message: According to Guttural_R, the guttural, rhotic consonant in Danish is a voiced pharyngeal fricative.
--213.236.196.39 (talk) 21:21, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, according to Ladefoged on page 323 of Sounds of the World's languages "the Danish ‘r’ sound in words such as ‘råd’ (council) is not a uvular approximant as some textbooks describe it, but a pharyngeal approximant with an articulatory position similar to that in a low back vowel." — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 21:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  In Danish 

message: What is the full sequence of sounds in this recording?  (E.g. for most of the other consonants the recording is [ka: aka:] where k = consonant). Lfh (talk) 10:09, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sound file 

message: The sound file seems to be recorded at a very low sample rate, and it's difficult to make out anything but a vowel "a". -- 92.229.117.222 (talk) 21:18, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It is at a low quality, but you probably can't hear anything but the vowel because your ears aren't primed to hear the sound.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 23:09, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

text: The quality is fine, though I suspect it might be epiglottal. There is no "native speaker", the article is not about a specifuc language, it's about the sound.--Ancient Anomaly (talk) 00:53, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The quality was terrible, so I recorded my own version and replaced it with Rafy's. TFighterPilot (talk) 15:14, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually it wasn't mine. BTW, don't forget to modify the description at commons.--Rafy talk 15:36, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Woah, you're quick. I changed it now. Btw, what do you think of my recording? TFighterPilot (talk) 15:42, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You might want to clutch certain throat muscles while exhaling the 'Ayin to make it more pronounced. I'm not a big fan of "Youtube tutoring" but this video could help show the best way to produce this sound. Regards.--Rafy talk 19:30, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That doesn't sound very pharyngeal (it sounds epiglottal instead), plus more like an approximant than a fricative. The Arabic phonology article describes the sound as "The so-called "voiced pharyngeal fricative"  (ع) is in fact neither pharyngeal nor fricative, but is more correctly described as a creaky-voiced epiglottal approximant .", which strikes me as exactly right for her 'ayin, including the 'creaky-voiced' part.  --JorisvS (talk) 20:03, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that's how I pronounce ayin... :/ I guess that my ayin is an epiglottal approximant. Thanks for letting me know. TFighterPilot (talk) 21:04, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sound quality 

message: I've decided to add the Hebrew example back in, since according to Hebrew phonology it does occur for some speakers. I think adding a note that it occurs only in Oriental dialects is sufficient. AlexanderKaras (talk) 14:28, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Occurrence in Hebrew 

message: This sound is used in most dialects of Arabic and I am at loss at what it is exactly (fricative? pharyngeal? etc.) Will someone please link to this file in the right article or point to a similar file already linked to in the right article?__What's_the_big_deal?! 00:43, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's a pharyngealised glottal stop, which Arabic phonology#Consonants mentions as what Thelwall asserts the 'ayin really is, phonetically speaking. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:57, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

text: This interpretation is mentioned in this article under "Occurrence", too, by the way. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: What about this??

message: Currently, the text introducing the table of languages in which the sound occurs conflicts with that table: It says that the sound occurs in Danish, but the list does not mention Danish (see also the above section on Danish); it says it does not occur in Arabic and Hebrew according to recent insights, but Arabic and Hebrew are listed nevertheless. We should really make our mind up on this point instead of confusing the reader. Is there any current dispute in the literature on the precise phonetic quality of the Danish and Arabic/Hebrew sounds? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:17, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: As can be seen in this edit, the sources cited were originally specifically for Arabic, not Hebrew.  Someone would have to double check SOWL to see what L&M say, but so far it's a failed verification for dialects of Hebrew not having this sound.  — Æµ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 18:52, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Why the Arabic language example was removed from the list?.--Adamsa123 (talk) 12:41, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It shouldn't have been added in the first place after this conversation. — Æµ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 01:08, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: But why it shouldn't have been added?. The Arabic language have that consonant.--Adamsa123 (talk) 16:53, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not clear that that's true.  Sources that have actually taken a close phonetic look at the sounds in question have found that they were something else.  — Æµ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 17:00, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Don't forget to check the above discussion #Does the sound really not occur at all in Arabic?. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 22:31, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction in Occurrences section 

message: There's a stronger, "thicker" ain pronounced in parts of the Arabic peninsula and I guess Iraq, and a weaker ain in the Levant, Egypt, and some other places. What is the actual difference between these sounds? Is it the pharyngeal-epiglottal distinction or the fricative-approximant distinction? Or both? Or something else?  Generally, I think that a note on Arabic in the article would be good. People tend to think of this sound as typically Arabic. If it doesn't exist in Arabic, fine. But where should we look for the actual sound. Thx. --93.206.131.159 (talk) 22:06, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Variation in Arabic dialects 

message: I think this page should have a sound file for the Pharyngeal Approximant. I think it would also be helpful to have sound files for the Standard Arabic ‘Ain sound so readers can compare it to a true Voiced Pharyngeal Fricative and the Pharyngeal Approximant. TheNewLetters (talk) 18:14, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pharyngeal Approximant sound file & more 

message: I think somebody confused the Arabic letters ع with غ. The two are similar to some degree, but are definitely quite distinct. The R in German "Mutter" and the sound recording are definitely for غ not a ع, but the IPA symbol used for this sound is that of ع. --Ideophagous (talk) 18:44, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  There might be a confusion here