Talk:Lady Jane Grey/Archive 1

message: I'm wondering about the statement (on the page about Lady Jane Grey) that "the Spanish insisted on her execution"...How so? Does anyone know? It's the first time I hear this.
: This claim is made in the movie  Lady Jane, but I'm somewhat dubious about it; it may be an invention of the screenwriters (who also included other historical, errr, inaccuracies). Certainly, the precipitating event for her death was Wyatt's rebellion, and she was executed only 5 days after Wyatt was imprisoned, almost certainly too quickly for any communication with Spain over that particular rebellion (although not the Spanish ambassador) over the issue. None of the Tudor histories I have speak of a Spanish role; I'll update the page to reflect uncertainty, and note the role Wyatt's rebellion played.Noel 15:20, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Another possible inaccuracy in the movie: In Edward and Mary David Starkey asserts it was Edward that did the bullying and cajoling for Grey. Kwantus 02:09, 2005 Jan 31 (UTC)
The Spanish role in Jane Grey's execution is clearly documented in the "State Papers, Foreign - Spain, for the Reign of Mary I" in the National Archives' Public Record Office. Those documents will be described in a forthcoming academic study of Jane Grey.PhD Historian 09:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Spanish role in execution

message: I'm also curious about the statement concerning Jane's popularity among the population of England. Mary I's page states that SHE in fact held popular sway- contrary to what Jane's article states.
: This seems to have been fixed. Noel 15:31, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Popularity

message: Now here's a page where a genealogical table is essential. Better than a disputed portrait (why not just follow the opinion of curators at the National Portait Gallery, no?)  The title "Jane of England"  ....no, I won't say it... "Mary proved to have more popular support than Jane, partly because of the continuing sympathy for the treatment her mother, Catherine of Aragon, had received at the hands of Henry VIII."  I believe this is lifted verbatim from Pope Leo XIII's History Tales for English Catholic Children, unless I'm mistaken, is it not? Wetman 21:21, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Genealogical table for Lady Jane Grey

message: Should we accord recognition to Lady Jane as a Queen? The Accession Council "revoked their former acts as done under coercion, and caused the lord mayor to proclaim Queen Mary" (1911 EB). Mary's accession proclamation recognises her as the successor to Edward VI, not as the successor to Jane. -- Emsworth 15:42, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The Accession Council can make history, but shouldn't be entitled to write it here. If one listened only to Accession Councils one would remain ignorant of, for example, the Protectorate as well as of Jane. It's fine to point out the inventive legal fictions by which the illusion of continuity of monarchial rule is achieved, as long as it's attributed. Apparently the Council's historical revision was not so convincing at the time as to allow the continued existence of Jane.<g> - Nunh-huh 23:46, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Lady Jane/ Queen Jane?

message: From this article: 
"...Mary was in a determined and unforgiving mood, and only five days after Wyatt's arrest, Jane and Guilford were executed. In addition, Mary planned a marital alliance with Spain, and the Spaniards may have insisted on Jane's death to remove a potential threat to Mary's rule. Jane's execution took place on 12 February 1554 at the Tower of London.
And from Mary I of England: 
"Originally, Mary was inclined to exercise clemency. She set the Lady Jane Grey free, recognising that the young girl was forced to take the Crown by her father-in-law. The Lady Jane's father, Henry Grey, 1st Duke of Suffolk, was also released. Only the Duke of Northumberland did the Queen execute..."
I'm no historian, but... Noting this on Mary:Talk as well. Mashford 04:21, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: See replies at Talk:Mary I of England#Lady Jane Grey: An interesting inconsistency - no sense talking about it in two places at once. Noel (talk) 16:06, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Mary I of England]]: An interesting inconsistency

message: Bibliography states 
*Chronicle of Queen Jane and of Two Years of Queen Mary - anonymous primary source
Can the author include the publishing information for this title?  I can't find it anywhere
Though I am not that author of the article, I can tell you that The Chronicle of Queen Jane and Two Years of Queen Mary was published by The Camden Society in London in 1850. It is available in most large research university libraries. To my knowledge it has not been reprinted since that first edition.PhD Historian 09:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bibliography 

message: However, Mary was Roman Catholic and looked set to overturn the religious reforms of her brother's short reign.
the wiki for Mary's brother Edward VI of England notes these "reforms": "All official editions of the Bible were accompanied by anti-Catholic annotations. Catholic symbols in churches were desecrated by mobs. Religious dissenters, moreover, were often persecuted and burnt at the stake."
Can we find a more neutral term than "religious reforms"?
: I think what I've just done sidesteps the whole "reform" issue (Edward's protestantism was part of the reformation, which is perhaps why that word was used).  I've also removed the claim that Jane and Edward fell in love while young (I notice that's been removed from the Edward article too, because nobody could provide evidence).  --  ajn</span> (talk) 20:26, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  religious 'reforms'? 

message: Hmm, the article is called Lady Jane Grey & not Jane of England & Ireland (meaning Queen of England & Ireland). I'm not arguing over wether Jane should be listed as Queen or not (Edward VI's succession act says "YES" ,replacing Henry VIII's succession act which said "NO"), it just that, if she's to be listed as a monarch on the succession template, shouln't the article say "Jane of England & Ireland"? GoodDay 15:48, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've edited the succession box on this Article, as well as the articles on Edward VI & Mary I of England and Ireland, removing Jane's name. I don't argue weither Jane was Queen or not, all I ask is if someone restores Jane's name to the succession box, Please rename the article "Jane of England & Ireland. GoodDay 22:42, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In a similar vein, if the Succession box has gone, then surely the category Queens Regnant must also go? Ian Cairns 23:16, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, I meant to say I've eliminated the succession box. GoodDay 00:17, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've commented (i.e. deleted) the categories English monarchs and Queens regnant. If these categories are reinstated then I think the succession box should also be reinstated. If the succession box remains deleted, then these categories must also go. Ian Cairns 00:35, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree 100% GoodDay 02:36, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Should Jane be listed as Queen in Succession Box?

message: I have semi-protected this page as an anon editor who has then apparently registered under several user names has persisted in his/her edits and page moves.--A Y Arktos\talk 01:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protection 

message: For a long time, a portrait at the National Portrait Gallery was thought to be of Jane; about ten years ago, it was shown to be of Catherine Parr. It's generally held that there's no reliably known life painting of her.
I've stumbled across some interesting recent work on a painting in the Fitzwilliam at Cambridge has suggested it may well be of Jane, though - it was previously attributed as Mary I, but the evidence for Jane is if anything stronger. It's not conclusive - this sort of thing never can be - but the ages match, the types of clothing and jewellery match, the iconography works... it's an interesting, and well-reasoned, article. Might be worth mentioning in passing here.  Shimgray | talk | 12:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portraiture 

message: My name is Sonja Marie, and I'm not very happy!
While I think this page is great, I'm not happy that an image, and the text about it, from my website, The Lady Jane Grey Internet Museum: http://www.bitterwisdom.com/ladyjanegrey/, has been used on this site without my permission and the image link from my site was also put instead of the page that it appears on.  The image is "Lady Jane Grey Preparing For Execution".
I have emailed Wikipedia support about the image, text and link being used and I hope it will be removed either by them or the editor of this section.  Thank you! - SonjaMarie 07:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a little confusing; we don't seem to have any such picture in this article. The painting so titled on your website seems to be by George Whiting Flagg and painted in 1835, and doesn't appear in this article. - Nunh-huh 07:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: You can sign your name by typing four tildes (~~~~) which will be converted to a link to your user page when the page is saved. So you are referring not to this article, but to Lady Jane Grey Preparing for Execution (painting). The words in question appear to be those of the painter, and not yours. Clearly we would immediately remove any text in which you held the copyright, or any image in which you held a copyright. And I think we could easily remove the link to your site if you wish.  The image is definitely here, by the way: if it's not loading on your computer it may be a memory or caching issue. If the problem is use of an image (and words) which are in the public domain, I think we'll have to see what the folks upstairs have to say! - Nunh-huh 07:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, now we're into territory that is "group-think" here on Wikipedia. I see no reason not to do as you suggest, but the image is on Commons rather than in Wikipedia proper, and so it isn't anything I can do myself. One way to procede would be to ask your question at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion (something like "I would like to have an image that was downloaded from my website deleted from Commons. How is that done?"); but it might be simpler if you just wait for the folk you wrote to to get back to you. - Nunh-huh 08:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe she is requesting the deletion as a courtesy, not as a matter of copyright. _ Nunh-huh 08:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: True, the painting is public domain.  But the scan is not.  See my comment presently at the end of this section.  Ehurtley 07:30, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

text: The only thing we can control now is the link, which I think I've just done for you. It's unfortunate that the picture's on Commons, because it really does make the whole thing more complex. If you wrote to the office or User talk:Jimbo Wales you will probably get a more satisfactory answer from them. - Nunh-huh 09:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I really don't think a complaint to the office or Jimbo would get anywhere, though.  Both the picture and the quote are out of copyright, and they are therefore fair game and other people (including Wikipedia) can reuse them.  I'm assuming that Inga Walton has scanned the image out of a book, or maybe photographed the original painting (it's not in the collection's online catalogue yet , though they are digitising their collection and don't seem to be claiming copyright on the digital images of Flagg's other paintings).  Publishing research means people can reuse your research, if you don't want it to be reused then don't publish it.  --ajn (talk) 09:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I rather doubt that that's the case. Ownership of a book, manuscript, painting, artwork, audio or video record does not give the possessor the copyright. A museum owning a unique original painting of Van Gogh, or an individual buying the latest Madonna CD (edited in millions of copies) are exactly in the same situation: transfer of ownership of any material object that embodies a protected work does not of itself convey any rights in the copyright. - Nunh-huh 09:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I'd be interested to see the basis for that claim of copyright - the painting was done by someone who died 109 years ago, which means the painting itself is well out of US copyright protection.  Wikipedia:Public domain image resources says that accurate pictures of artworks can only remain in copyright for as long as the artwork itself is in copyright, and although it doesn't give a source for that, this page] does (section "Photographer's Copyright on artwork reproductions") - Bridgeman Art Library vs Corel Corp, in the USA.  So even if the digital image was scanned from a book, or from a photo taken by an employee of the museum, there's no copyright in the original image or the digital image.  It would be different if it was a creative work derived from the original image, but straight copies of the whole picture do not constitute creative work.  --ajn (talk) 09:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: While I agree with the tenor of your last statement, I think you will find that those organizations which assert that they have ownership of a "right to reproduce images" of a work which they own (rather than one which they produced) are asserting rights they wish they had rather than rights they actually do have. There's no copyright left to own in an 19th century artwork. - Nunh-huh 15:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Do you have a source for the assertion that copyrights are held by the owner of the material object?  That seems to flatly contradict 17 US 202: "Ownership of a copyright, or of any of the exclusive rights under a copyright, is distinct from ownership of any material object in which the work is embodied. Transfer of ownership of any material object, including the copy or phonorecord in which the work is first fixed, does not of itself convey any rights in the copyrighted work embodied in the object; nor, in the absence of an agreement, does transfer of ownership of a copyright or of any exclusive rights under a copyright convey property rights in any material object."  Once a copyright has expired, the work, as distinguished from the material object in which the work is embodied, passes into the public domain. --Gnosticdogma 15:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Elvis is an interesting example. Duration of copyright is closer to 70 years after death than 27 (depending on date of first publication and whether renewals were made). A useful web reference is this page on when works enter the public domain (under U.S. law). Even though Congress has extended the duration of copyright several times, there's absolutely no way that anything from the 19th century could possibly be under copyright. - Nunh-huh 02:50, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: In research I have come across quite a few old items where holders of a 19th century image, document, etc insist in the 21st century that they own the copyright. I have yet to come across a case where, to put it bluntly, they were not bullshitting. It seems a standard ploy. Claim copyright to protect your ability to get people to pay into the gallery, library, etc, or to say to someone "pay me and you can use it." Legal experts on copyright law have burst out laughing at the claims, calling them, in one case I can think of, a "money making stunt that is a phoney as a three dollar bill". One organisation was particularly ruthless in claiming copyright and reproduction rights, to an organisation I was working with. The legal advice, from someone who became a senior judge shortly afterwards, was that those making the claim hadn't a leg to stand on. So we called their bluff. When they threatened to get an injunction, our response was "go ahead". They gave us "24 hours to desist, or else." We said "sue us." We got a letter delivered by courier saying that they would go to court that afternoon if we did not back down. Again we said "go ahead". We never heard from them again. It had been a bluff all along, with most people, faced with their threats, backing down. But if you didn't they became as quiet as door mice. (Another ploy was to at the last minute "offer" use of the image for free — ie, we ain't going to court with this. So we'll back down this way. Again when declined, amid threats, the so-called copyright owner then promptly disappeared, could not be reached by phone, and none of the "certain" legal actions ever happened (exactly as the copyright lawyers had insisted would be the case).  BTW Wikipedia does have copyright advice from lawyers. And I want to stress I am not talking about the person here or insinuating anything about her statements or anyone else mentioned here on the page, just my experience in general about companies, art galleries, libraries, etc who seem to pull the "we own copyright and reproduction rights" stunt all the time. As my own lawyer as a writer who deals with contracts and copyright says "the fact is they do not. They just pretend to." FearÉIREANN\(caint) 00:03, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: PhD Historian, I believe you are wrong on both counts (at least in the United States).  The ownership of a copyright vests with the author of a work (or the employer if it was a work for hire).  Ownership may subsequently be conveyed, bequethed, or otherwise transfered by operation of law, but it can never be created in a non-author simply by regisration.  Works also do not need to be legally declared to be in the public domain.  It is the copyright owner's reponsibility to enforce his or her rights.  If no copyright exists, because it lapsed or was waived, no action can be brought against those who would reproduce the work.  The copyright for this work lapsed a long time ago. --Gnosticdogma 17:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I believe that the picture has not been removed, nor, probably, will it be.  I don't think the situation was simple or obvious at all.  I'm still not sure what Sonja Marie wants (or wanted); the digital copy of George Whiting Flagg's painting is not owned by her or her friend. Gnosticdogma 21:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Concur with Gnosticdogma - not "Sonja Marie's" picture - that is what copyright law is all about.  The image is now in the public domain.  Don't want to share it, don't publish.  It was not "stolen" and it is rude to infer that it is.--Arktos talk 01:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Ehurtley, if a reprodution, photograph or otherwise, is indistinquishable from the artwork it depicts, the reproduction cannot be protected by copyright because it lacks originality.  Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. 36 F. Supp. 2d 191 (S.D.N.Y. 1999).  If a painting is in the public domain, exact photographic replicas of that painting are also in the public domain. Gnosticdogma 18:35, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Using An Image Without Permission 

message: Accroding to the article "...Edward, as a minor, had not legally reached an age where he could make a will." The question I have is this: how old need he be to have an enforceable will? He was 16 at the time of his death, so how much longer need he have lived for his will to be valid? Thanks. 206.156.242.36 13:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Very useful and thorough explanation. Thank you. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 11:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Excellent explanation, PhD Historian, thank you. So it seems that even at the time the opinion was split between "can" can "cannot" for the monarch to issue succession. Had you have said that undoubtedly Edward had the right, I would then consider all monarchs since that time to be illegitimate, but since the "not" faction won we can only go with what history has left us. It’s a shame, really, I wonder what kind of Queen Jane would have been…and we know what kind Mary was.  206.156.242.36 13:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edward's will question 

message: I'd like to make a couple of comments about the illustrations that accompany this article. The upper-most illustration is captioned "probably derived from a portrait, subsequently lost, by Hans Holbein." Though it is not impossible for Hans Holbein to have painted a portrait of Jane Grey, it is very unlikely that he did so. Hans Holbien the Younger died in November 1543. Jane Grey was at that time barely six years old. Any Holbein portrait would necessarily have been done some time before November 1543, so that Jane would have been little more than 5 years old. If Jane had indeed been depicted in an individual portrait (rather than as one person in a family portrait) at such a young age and by an artist of such eminence as Holbein, it would have been a virtually unique event in sixteenth-century English female portraiture. That kind of expenditure was not lavished on female children of such young age in that era, regardless of their social prominence. Female portraits were ususally first occassioned by the girl/woman's marriage. Even Princess Elizabeth, a girl of higher social station than Jane Grey, is not known to have had her portrait painted before she was thirteen years old (and therefore becoming marriageable). In all likelihood, the van de Passe image is either a product of the artist's imagination, or another example of the many incorrect identifications that were so very common in the late-sixteenth and early-seventeenth centuries. Whichever the case may be, the portrait is undoubtedly not a copy of a "lost" Hans Holbein portrait of a 5-year-old Jane Grey.
The second image is that of a young woman holding a book. The caption correctly states that the image is "sometimes claimed to depict Lady Jane Grey." And while it may, like the van de Passe, be the product of an artist's imagining of what Jane might have looked like, it is almost certainly not an authentic depiction of her. The costume worn by the sitter, especially the headgear and the kerchief around her shoulders, suggest Dutch or German influence. They are inappropriate for a girl or woman of the English aristocracy during the early 1550s. Also, the absence of ornamentation and jewelry in the costume suggests a woman of much lower social station than Jane Grey. This portrait is almost certainly of some person other than Jane Grey or, at best, a posthumous rendering drawn from a late-sixteenth-century artist's imagining of what he thought Jane Grey should have looked like. In my opinion, neither of these illustrations are of Jane Grey, but are instead cases of mistaken identity, with the incorrect identification having occurred long ago and simply been perpetuated without examination. PhD Historian 21:45, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illustrations 

message: May I just point out that the date attached to the Act of Succession mentioned in this article is incorrect? The relevant Act of Succession, 35 Henry VIII c.1, dates to 1543, not 1544. See "Statutes of the Realm" (London: Dawsons, 1810 and 1963), volume 3, pages 955-958. The Act was passed in the thirty-fifth year of Henry's reign (April 1509 - January 1547), but reigns began at Year 1, not Year 0. Thus an act passed 6 months after Henry's accession, in 1509, would be styled "1 Henry." Any act styled "35 Henry" was therefore passed at some point after the thirty-fourth but before the thirty-fifth anniverary of his accession (i.e. during the thirty-fifth year, or between 22 April 1543 and 21 April 1544). The Act of Succession referred to in this article was passed during the summer of 1543, which was indeed during the thirty-fifth year of the reign (April 1543 - April 1544) but before the thirty-fifth annivesary of the accession (April 1544). An individual's age was calculated in a similar manner. Though born in June 1491, Henry at his accession in April 1509 was said to be "in his eighteenth year," yet he did not reach his eighteenth birthday until 2 months later ... at which point he was then "in his nineteenth year." This pre-modern method for reckoning ages helps to explain why modern historians are so often confused about the age at which Jane Grey was executed. In sixteenth-century terms, she was "in her seventeenth year," though by modern terms she was sixteen years and four or five months old.  PhD Historian 21:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's rather convoluted - we seem to have had one article for the 1533 Act (25 Hen.8 c.22 - the one which legitimised Elizabeth and bastardised Mary), and then had everyone link to that for all four Acts of Succession. I've moved that Act to its formal short title (Succession to the Crown Act 1533 ) and will try to sort out all the redirects now - could you glance over these Acts and check we've got the four correctly sorted out? Shimgray | talk | 00:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: After lots of chopping-and-changing... tada! First Succession Act; Second Succession Act; Third Succession Act. (I used this form to avoid giving the dates - it's the titles that Tanner's Tudor Constitutional Documents gives them) Shimgray | talk | 01:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Act of Succession of 1544? or 1543? 

message: I have taken the liberty of making a substantial number of changes to this article. Hopefully these changes will not aggravate or infuriate too many people. The changes made are intended to bring the article into conformity with the archival evidence, and to eliminate many of the more fictional elements that have crept into the history of Jane Grey over the preceding 450 years. I realize that many people are very vested in the "reality" they have "learned" from the fictional and semi-fictional accounts of Jane Grey's life, as well as from the writings of non-professional and untrained "historians" like Hester Chapman, Mary Luke, Alison Plowden, and Faith Cook. If any of the changes that I have made disturb anyone, please first read my user page, then contact me or post a note on this discussion page and I will be happy to provide the documentary and archival basis for the change. PhD Historian 01:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page Edits 

message: Mexicari and Mkoyle seem to have initiated a minor controversy over the spelling of Jane's husband's name without citing their individual sources or entering a note on this discussion page, so I will start the discussion thread myself. Mexicari seems to favor the spelling Guilford. MKoyle favors Guildford. Both are correct, and both are incorrect. Spelling in the sixteenth century was not standardized. An individual was free to spell his or her name in any way he or she chose to do so. Their contemporaries often referred to those individuals using some other idiosyncratic spelling. In the case of Guilford/Guildford Dudley, the martyrologist John Foxe spelled his name "Gylford" in the 1563 edition of "Actes and Monuments" (p.923). For my own part, I generally refer to individuals using whatever spelling they themsleves preferred. Thus I refer to Henry VIII's last queen as "Kateryn Parr," since that is the spelling she consistently used when signing her own name. In Guilford/Guildford's case, I am aware of only one surviving example of his signature. It is contained in the British Library Harley Manuscript 2342, Lady Jane Grey's prayerbook. Guildford wrote along the bottom margin of two pages an inscription addressed to Jane's father which he signed only "G. Duddeley." His use of the initial of the first name does not help us to clarify the issue. Note, however, his own spelling of the last name. Jane used the same spelling of "Duddeley" in both the prayerbook and other documents. Yet today it is usually spelled "Dudley." The legal documents of Guildford's trial (National Archives Public Record Office King's Bench 8/23) are also not helpful since they are in Latin and use Latinized spellings and abbreviated forms of first names (e.g. Rob't, Tho., Wllm.). The source of Guildford's name is helpful, however. He was given as his Christian name his mother's maiden name. Guildford's mother was Jane Guildford Dudley, daughter of Sir Edward Guildford (d. 1534) of Kent. That family fairly consistently signed its last name with the inclusion of the "d": GuilDford. Thus I would argue that the "correct" spelling of Jane's husband's name should match that of his mother's family for which he was named: Guildford. PhD Historian 02:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guilford or Guildford? 

message: I just removed yet another insertion of fictional material in this article, this time a paragraph with a tale about Jane and Guildford just prior to their executions. Though the story, involving Queen Mary being "touched" by a purported request from Guildford to be allowed to visit Jane and Jane waving to Guildford as he went to his exeuction, is a popular one among novelists and playwrights, it has absolutely no support in the historical record. The anonymous contributor also mentioned the fact that the name Jane is engraved or carved into the soft stone wall of one of the rooms of the Tower. The contributor stated that the carving was "probably" done by Guildford Dudley while he was imprisoned. There are indeed at least two places in the second floor chamber of the Beauchamp Tower where the name Jane (spelled "IANE") is carved into the stonework, especially a window embrasure. And while it is intriguing to suppose that Guildford did the carving as a tribute to his wife, such a supposition cannot at all be sustained with any certainty. That particular room is literally covered in carved names, phrases, coats of arms, and other markings. The room was used to house untold numbers of prisoners over the years, and carving was a popular pastime for many of those prisoners. They carved not only their own names, but also the names of relatives and friends. And Jane was a VERY common name in the early modern era. John Dudley's wife (Guildford's mother) was named Jane, for example. So one could as easily suggest that John Dudley did the carving in tribute to his own wife. It is equally as likely that some other prisoner carved the names in tribute to their own wife or daughter or girlfriend or mistress named Jane. The probability that the carving was done by Guildford is therefore exceedingly small, though it is not impossible. So we can say "maybe" or "perhaps," but not "probably." PhD Historian 06:24, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Jane" engraved in Beauchamp Tower window ledge 

message: I am glad that someone caught the earlier deletion of the section on Jane Grey's early life and education. However, the current version that has been re-inserted contains a number of factual errors. I am reluctant to edit the section myself, since editing battles sometimes develop over documented facts that contradict popular myth. I am instead simply going to offer here my observations and the documentary evidence that supports them and let others do the actual editing, if they so decide. First, on Jane's date of birth: she certainly was not born on 12 October 1537, nor even in October. According to a letter in the Calendar of State Papers for Henry VIII, dated 13 October, Frances Brandon was visting the Archbishop of Canterbury during early October, and had been there "all summer." Additional evidence from the CSP and other sources actually suggests that Jane was born perhaps as early as May but not later than July 1537. A paper presenting the full evidence and argument for this earlier date is forthcoming in Oxford University's "Notes and Queries" journal. Secondly, Jane and Edward were not "companions." They were acquainted, certainly, and they were occassionally in each others' presence for brief periods. But any assertion that they spent more than a few isolated weeks together is wholly unsupported by the documentary evidence. In his own diary, Edward mentions Jane only two or three times: once in connection to a marriage prospect and once in realtion with a state visit by the regent of Scotland. As for his calling her a "pretty rose," this is certainly the product of fiction, unless someone can cite a sixteenth-century document to that effect. I have thus far found no such reference during the last 4 years of archival research on Jane Grey. Lastly, the idea that Jane's parents "mistreated" her is an anachronistic modern interpretation of sixteenth-century behavior. By the standards of her own day, Jane was treated quite appropriately, even leniently. Virtually all childrearing manuals of the early- and mid-sixteenth century counsel parents not to hesitate to beat their children, and even offer explicit instructions on how best to do so. "Mistreated" is thus a biased modern assessment, inconsistent with the sixteenth-century context. Jane was well educated in comparison to the "average" woman of the sixteenth century, as the section indicates. She did know Latin, Greek and Hebrew. Among modern languages, however, there is direct evidence for only one: Italian. She may have known French as well, since it was the courtly language and the majority of nobles knew at least some French. But there is no evidence that she knew "several" (i.e., more than two) modern languages. So much myth and romantic fiction has developed around Jane Grey that it is now exceedingly difficult to separate fact from fancy. PhD Historian 22:52, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've toned it down.  --ajn (talk) 08:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early Life and Education 

message: I seem to remember reading Jane's probable date of birth is around November 1537.  The box at the top of this article says September-October 1537.  However a user is now claiming it was early 1537.  This has implications for the accuracy of the film Lady Jane (film) (and possibly other treatments): was she 15 or 16 at the time of her marriage and brief reign? PatGallacher 09:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jane's date of birth

message: Google produces only 12 results (as of 11/2006) for "traitor-heroine of the Reformation", and all appear to be direct citations of this Wikipedia article, or closely derived therefrom. Hence it appears that any quest for citation will result in a circular reference, and that the contributor who first entered that quoted moniker for Jane Grey invented it. Hence it should be removed and the sentence reworded to preserve any relevant details (e.g. age at death). If it were really from a literary source, it would appear somewhere, anywhere, quoted and propogated by Tudor historians as a legitimate description of Jane Grey. I choose not to edit it but add this so that someone more proficient in Tudor history can make the edit.
If I may, as someone perhaps "more proficient in Tudor history" than the unsigned poster of the above, respond. The quotation is from the famous Tudor historian A.F. Pollard (d. 1948). It appeared in his volume on Henry VIII's successors entitled "From the accession of Edward VI to the death of Elizabeth," volume 6 of "The Political History of England," 12 vols., ed. Reginald Poole (London: Longmans, Green and Company, 1905), p. 111. Pollard's full original sentence is, "No queen was worthier of the crown than this usurper, no medieval saint more saintly than the traitor-heroine of the reformation." PhD Historian 10:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "traitor-heroine of the Reformation"[citation needed] died at the age of 16 years. (Section: Execution, 3rd graf) 

message: I know this article's been through the mill with naming conventions, but I'm just wondering... wouldn't her proper title at the time of her death have been Lady Guildford Dudley? Why is she only known to history as Lady Jane Grey? Just curious.. TysK 08:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't aware that that particular naming convention wasn't in use in the sixteenth century, but it doesn't surprise me. And of course you are right about women often being known to history by their maiden names or territorial designations, but I hadn't considered all the examples of such outside of royal consorts. Thanks for your very detailed answer to a question of little importance to the article... and thank you for being an academic willing to contribute to Wikipedia. TysK 00:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't know how she would have been known at the time of her death, but as a rule, history remembers women (and, indeed, men) according to their maiden names, or the land/kingdom they came from (I heard it was essentially to make it easier to tell where the man or woman came from, though that may be a myth). Thus, we speak of Anne Boleyn rather than Queen Anne or Anne Tudor, or Anne Marquess of Pembroke; and of Eleanor of Aquitaine, rather than Queen Eleanor of England. This is, however, more a guideline rather than a rule - history has examples of women being known by the name of their first husband. Thus, we generally refer to John of Gaunt's mistress and eventual third wife as Catherine Swynford, rather than either Catherine Roelt (her maiden name) or Catherine Duchess of Lancaster. In the case of Jane Grey's ancestress, Elizabeth Woodville, however, we refer to her by her maiden name of Woodville, rather than as Queen Elizabeth, or as Lady Elizabeth Grey (the name of her first husband). It's just a general tradition, really. Michaelsanders 12:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are absolutely right; I just hadn't thought of those standards as applying to Lady Jane, though you have adequately shown that they do.. regardless, I never took exception with anything in the article- my question arose from mere curiosity. TysK 00:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: Can I just say that the section in this article on Jane Grey's "early life and education" is bunk? I do not know who wrote it or what sources they based their writing on, but it is clearly not based in legitimate primary sources. It seems to rely more on the plots of historical novels and films than anything else. This section of the article needs to be re-written so that it reflects the evidence of the primary sources rather than anachronistic storytelling. PhD Historian 22:15, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So write it, then. You clearly have both the knowledge of and the access to good sources, why leave it to those that haven't? Michaelsanders 22:56, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I very much doubt it would simply be reverted. If anyone thought that was necessary, they'd have to discuss it. As for what you intend to write, if it is based on genuine sources, it is unquestionable - just be careful to cite your sources, especially for the controversial bits. Also, try to find another published historian(s) [having read your profile, I note that you are publishing your own work. That might do, once it is published: I don't know what the wikipedia attitude is to those who edit based upon their own published work.] who supports your views, and cite him/her - this will remove accusations of OR, and allow us to (if we think it necessary) double check details. As for overturning 'received wisdom', I think that would be a very fine thing - however, be aware that wikipedia is not meant to be a formum for opinions. If your views on Lady Jane Grey (which you say are firmly supported by primary evidence) are obvious statements of facts, and possibly have support in published work (preferably from a reputable historian, rather than those of Holy Blood... calibre), then there will be no issue. If, however, it is merely your interpretation of what happened - no matter how valid - the issue will become more complex. However, it will do no harm for you to write it, as you suggest it - in stages, discussing each point. I'm sure all of us will be happy to aid you. Merry Christmas! Michaelsanders 08:37, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early Life and Education 

message: I don't mean to be difficult, but am I the only one concerned that this article goes from Ascension to Execution without any of discription of what happened between, including reign (what there was of it) and removal from the throne?  Or what happened between being removed to the final rebellion that lead to her execution?  It seems to my untrained eye that there are key bits of information that are completely lacking that would be needed to have the whole story.  If I'm misreading this, please feel free to correct me.  Stephanie Barr 21:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apparent missing section(s) 

message: As with the articles on Mary and Edward VI, the terms de facto and de jure were used incorrectly here. Jane was made Queen by an act which was not made up according to the requirements by law. Nevertheless, that act was made up and she -was- crowned as queen and was recognized as such at least for a few days. Until July 19th 1553, she was queen by law, or De Jure. However, she wielded no real power, while Mary did. Ergo, Mary was queen in fact, if not by law, therefore, was the de facto queen.
I've corrected this in this entry, it is now consistent with this view of events as explained in a section on the page on Edward VI. I've proposed for this issue to be debated on the discussion page for that article, hoping that if any changes will be made there, they will be carried over to the other two articles. But it seems only logical for all three articles to be consistent in this regard. Skeptic77 00:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  de facto vs de jure 

message: Is it necessary that the large genealogy table be placed right in the middle of the text of the article? Isn't it something of a distraction visually? Might it not be better placed at the end of the article where it can be viewed without disrupting the flow of the text? Or does it somehow provide through its current placement information critical to the understanding of subsequent text? PhD Historian 19:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genealogy Tables 

message: Just ran across an interesting article, A Tudor specialist, David Starkey after 12 month of research believes he has found contemporary portrait of Lady Jane Grey,  Here is the link: http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/visual_arts/article1469701.ece Haugedo 17:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Starkey Miniature

message: The execution section ends with the bystander helping Jane to the block. This doesn't include her last words "Lord, into thy hands, I commend my spirit", the actual beheading and the executioner picking up the head and shouting "So perish all the queen's enemies, Behold the head of a traitor!". Someone has deleting this formerly added section saying that it is "pure fiction". But it is true, in addition to the link http://englishhistory.net/tudor/relative/janegrey.html, many books and historians will testify that this is true. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 99.245.152.199 (talk) 23:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Execution incomplete 

message: I am glad to see that someone has added the Streatham portrait and placed it in a more prominent position than the much later van de Passe engraving. I'm curious about two terms in the text accompanying the picture, however. Why is the caption above the picture worded "Proprietary Queen of England and Ireland"? The addition of "proprietary" seems entirely superfluous and unnecessary. I have never seen that term used in association with any English monarch, male or female, ever. And the term even seems erroneous to the extent that it implies that her husband was co-monarch, having acquired a kingly title through marriage and her claim. Yet Jane reigned as sole monarch for those nine days. Guildford remained offically simply "Lord Guildford, the queen's husband," and is not known to have exercised any power whatsoever. Second, the picture is described as "the only contemporary" portrait of Jane. The portrait has been definitively dated to after 1590, however, nearly half a century after Jane's death. That is not "contemporary," or "living, existing, or occurring together in time" (OED, s.v. "contemporary"). It would be more accurate to describe the Streatham portrait as "among the first posthumous portraits" of Jane Grey. Other sixteenth-century portraits of Jane Grey are known to have existed, at least two of which pre-dated the Streatham portrait by as much as 30 years. The current caption almost implies that the Streatham portriat is a life portrait, that the artist saw Jane in person and then painted her picture. This is clearly not possible, given the known time at which the picture was painted. Such small details matter and should be corrected if Wikipedia is to be taken seriously and considered "reliable" and "accurate." PhD Historian 08:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Streatham Portrait