Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)/Archive 2

message: This straw poll is to determine the naming convention for television programming, specifically but not necessarily limited to the primary disambiguator for the titles of television programming articles. The goal of this poll is to achieve consensus, or failing that a sizeable majority vote, in as harmonious manner as possible. 
This poll begins at 00:00, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: As of 00:42, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC), the vote is Yes=4 & No=7, and 1 unsigned.  The poll is extended and now ends at 00:00, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

text: In response to the criticism that the previous informal straw poll did not achieve consensus, this one was drafted to decide the fate only of the current written convention.  Failing that, a new one can be written "from scratch" with as much discussion/voting is needed.  This is the proper course of action.  Why can't the issue wait 3 weeks? What hurry is Wikipedia in that this can't happen. -- Netoholic 00:00, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: I agree, it is not convention until consensus is reached. In a few of your opinions the previous informal poll and discusstion does not satisfy that. I think it does.  Either way, this simple vote will decide it.  Please work with the community rather than targeting its members. -- Netoholic 00:06, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: I think that the namning convention is a good one, but it doesn't seem like it's been properly discussed. On the previous poll "television" has the most votes, so I can't see why we're voting on whether or not to accept this convention as final.
Netoholic is probably right about the unwiseness of voting contrary (sort of anyway) to what I really feel. However, looking in the archives, "television" had 8 votes and "TV series" had 5, so it seems more reasonable to pitch these two conventions against each other. I am however unfamiliar with the Wikipedia voting procedures, so I will not vote at all until I am sure what a "yes" would mean. Is saying "yes, adopt this policy" equivialent to "yes, I like this policy"? – Foolip 13:40, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vote on whether to adopt [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television)]] 

message: ==== YES, it should be adopted ====
# Rlandmann 04:01, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Votes 

message: # Rlandmann 04:01, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  YES, it should be adopted 

message: # Netoholic 00:27, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  YES, but further discussion on some points is needed (specify) 

message: #I don't like the idea of "TV" anything. Television is much better, IMO. Mike H 23:07, Aug 22, 2004 (UTC)
#This survey/poll is premature (see Wikipedia:Survey guidelines), and more discussion is needed. --Michael Snow 01:27, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  NO, all aspects of the written convention need to be re-discussed 

message: This is utterly ludicrous. We do not need 20 days to vote on whether an issue that was "decided" in 10 days, is acceptable or not? There was no close date on the previous "straw poll". The so-called "consensus" policy that was adopted has since been over-taken by events. The last time I looked, before the previous content of this page was expunged, the votes alotted to the so-called "policy"  did not have the most votes. This current poll is totally invalid. We should be starting with a clean sheet. I should also point out that the method used to archive the previous content of this page is incorrect. In moving the old page we have lost the history. I will be rectifying the situation by deleting this page, moving the page back to here, and then copying the archived material back to the archive page. Mintguy (T) 23:50, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: In response to the criticism that the previous informal straw poll did not achieve consensus, this one was drafted to decide the fate only of the current written convention.  Failing that, a new one can be written "from scratch" with as much discussion/voting is needed.  This is the proper course of action.  Why can't the issue wait 3 weeks? What hurry is Wikipedia in that this can't happen. -- Netoholic 00:00, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: I agree, it is not convention until consensus is reached. In a few of your opinions the previous informal poll and discusstion does not satisfy that. I think it does.  Either way, this simple vote will decide it.  Please work with the community rather than targeting its members. -- Netoholic 00:06, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: I think that the namning convention is a good one, but it doesn't seem like it's been properly discussed. On the previous poll "television" has the most votes, so I can't see why we're voting on whether or not to accept this convention as final.
Netoholic is probably right about the unwiseness of voting contrary (sort of anyway) to what I really feel. However, looking in the archives, "television" had 8 votes and "TV series" had 5, so it seems more reasonable to pitch these two conventions against each other. I am however unfamiliar with the Wikipedia voting procedures, so I will not vote at all until I am sure what a "yes" would mean. Is saying "yes, adopt this policy" equivialent to "yes, I like this policy"? – Foolip 13:40, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments 

message: I see no good reason to continue this absurd poll. I suggest we scrap it and continue with the proposal I made on here before the previous contents were deleted. i.e. that we start afresh with a clean sheet and publicize it properly. Please see previous content and discussions here Mintguy (T) 18:37, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: This is absurd

message: Twenty days is an unusually long vote time; particularly for a mere ratification poll of fairly unimportant naming convention. Given that eight people already want to re-discuss the issue, I think there is little value in continuing the ratification, and we should "re-open the field", as it were.
Here is a mechanism for deciding the naming convention.
# Each alternative is listed 
# Each alternative has a pros and cons section
# Each alternative has a further discussion section
# Each alternative has a voting section
# Each interested wikipedian can vote in favour of as many proposals as they find acceptable, (i.e. it is an approval vote, not a first-past-the-post vote - this makes consensus building much more possible)
# Any wikipedian can vote at any time. If another proposal comes along, then you are allowed to withdraw old vote(s) and vote for the new one if you wish. 
# Announcement of vote should be given on announcements, pump and goings-on to give vote validity. 
# Tentative: Opinions from the previous straw poll, and from the discussion of Summer 2003 should be counted - issues have not changed. Their votes will be listed but marked.
# The poll will end after a period of "stability" - five days without change in the most acceptable option. (As usual sockpuppet votes will be discounted for this purpose).
I'll layout all the options that have been suggested tomorrow unless
#Someone points out a glaring error in this decision process
#Someone beats me too it (prefered option :) )
Pcb21| Pete 10:02, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Process stalled

message: <BIG><BIG>THIS POLL IS CURRENTLY INACTIVE and is kept for historical reasons.  Please do not add comments here.  There is an ongoing poll to determine the television naming convention at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television)/poll.</big></big>
One particular user, who has managed to gain something of a reputation for trying to enact unilateral decisions, has tried to usurp the consensus approach of joint decision-making that is usually employed on Wikipedia. The details in respect of this can be viewed in the history and archives of this page.
The poll that was formerly on this page, was instigated by that user, in order to endorse a policy written by that user, with a deadline set by that user, with a criterion of what constitutes a consensus defined by that user. Despite a large number of people opposed to the adoption of that policy without further discussion, that user decided to instigate the aforementioned poll. I am myself taking the unusual step of unilaterally declaring that the poll instigated by that user for this page is invalid. In its place I am instigating a new poll that will allow all views to be discussed, and voted on, as per normal procedure. I will be publicising this poll on the Village Pump and at Wikipedia:Current_surveys. If anyone would care to invite users who may have opinions on this matter to come to this page by any other means then please do so.
As part of the process of attempting to make this a fair procedure I will be contacting all those users who voted, or expressed an opinion on this page in all of its previous incarnations. i.e. the following users:  
*User:Netoholic
*User:Zoney
*User:Gtrmp 
*User:Pcb21
*User:Rossumcapek
*User:Lee J Haywood
*User:Arwel Parry
*User:Jooler
*User:Foolip
*User:Avaragado
*User:Arteitle
*User:Rlandmann
*User:Michael Snow
*User:Angela
*User:Mackerm
*User:TheCustomOfLife
*User:Proteus
*User:RickK
*User:Cfailde
*User:DJ Clayworth
*User:Paul August
*User:Eisnel
*User:Regulus
*User:Tarquin
If any of those users fail to respond on this page, I think we should assume that their previous vote (if they made one) stands, but in light of the new broader options, I think we should allow everybody a chance to change their vote before assuming that their old vote holds. 
For the moment I am not going to state a deadline, I believe that we should agree to a deadline through discussion and I would like to hear opinions of what people think that the deadline should be and what criteria should be used for accepting any particular proposal.
I am appealing to all users to behave with respect to the wishes of other users and to allow all users to express their opinions on the detailed proposals below. I am also appealing to all users to assist in the policing of this poll. If you feel that the poll below is an appropriate and fair method of achieving the goal of generating a naming convention for television programming articles, then please sign under approve below. If you feel that the current poll is not appropriate method of achieving the goal of this page then please sign under disapprove. If you vote 'disapprove' then please add your justification and your suggestions for alternative methods of gaining a consensus. Mintguy (T) 16:29, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Another poll - Why?

message: Firstly it should be pointed out that the standard convention for disambiguation is that disambiguation should ONLY be used when it is absolutely necessary. Thus when there is no possibility of confusion, such as with Coronation Street and Fawlty Towers for example, parenthesised disambiguation should not be used at all.
Users are invited to add advantages and disadvantages to each of the proposals and add additional options as the see fit, but please do not clutter this section with discussion, please keep discussion limited to the discussion section provided.
This poll is open, when it closes is a matter for debate. Please discuss below. Please vote for ans many options as you wish. Multiple votes will be treated equally. Mintguy (T) 23:28, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposals

message: ====1: Ad-hoc====
#RickK 19:07, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC) (my first choice)
#If we disambiguate only where necessary, the other subjects being disambiguated from can help suggest how to disambiguate titles. --Michael Snow 00:24, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Voting

message: #RickK 19:07, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC) (my first choice)
#If we disambiguate only where necessary, the other subjects being disambiguated from can help suggest how to disambiguate titles. --Michael Snow 00:24, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: 1: Ad-hoc

message: # OwenBlacker 14:24, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC) (second choice)
# tooto 15:04, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: 4: (TV show) 

message: # RickK 19:08, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC) (second choice)
# James F. (talk) 23:41, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: 7: (television) 

message: # James F. (talk) 23:41, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: 9: (television program) [[American English|AE]] and (television programme) [[British English|BE]]

message: #My primary vote is for option 1, but I vote here to indicate my preference for "television ..." as a sensible first option when disambiguation is necessary. --Michael Snow 00:24, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: 10: (television ....) ; would require further dicussion