Talk:Shekhawati/Archive 1

message: ----
A lot of the stuff on this page absolutely makes no sense.
I am from this region and this is the first time I've heard of such excesses against farmers.
This page needs serious modification. Looks like someone is spreading bullshit.
I am from Shekhawati too (Chirawa, Loharu, Bagru, Pilani). You are just posting hearsay.
Let me give you an example: you claim literacy of Shekhawati is highest. Government of Rajasthan records show that Ajmer and Jaipur districts have highest literacy. You did not cite any references, just spout off things which have no basis in history. Please cite specific pages, sections and books if you are going to spread such stuff.
I am not a Jagirdar; Jagirdari died 60 years ago, as per your own writings.
:You have deleted matter regarding the condition of farmers in Shekhawati before Independence. This is surprising. It is a well known fact that the condition of farmers was worst prior to 1947. This matter was from page 96-97 in the following history book 
*Dr Natthan Singh: Jat - Itihas (Hindi), Jat Samaj Kalyan Parishad Gwalior, 2004
Similar condition of farmers have been recorded not only in India but Russia also in the writings of B.E.Lenin.
If you have seen the film GULAMI by Dharmendra it is the same story repeated. But I do not understand why you feel agitated on this matter. 
----
Who cares about Russia? Now I know why you are writing this stuff: you are a *Communist*! The Communists in India are well-known for re-writing history and spreading lies and propaganda. This is another attempt by you to spread lies, and will not be tolerated.
Regarding the literacy percentage, it keeps on changing. So if you have records you can cite and change accordingly. burdak 16:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

message: As regards the Literacy percentage I have taken from Rajasthan Road Atlas, Published by Indian Map Service, Jodhpur the district literacy percentage as under:
*Jhunjhunu            73.61 %
*Sikar                  71.19 %
*Churu                  66.97 %
*Rajasthan average  61.03 %
How about the literacy rate of Kota? It is even higher than Jhunjhunu.
And Shekhawati is a lot more than just Jhunjhunu district; if you include the entire area, it's literacy rate is not the highest in the state.
I am removing your inflammatory material. None of the authoritative books on Indian history ever mention your fantasical tales about the Jhunjhunu farmers. You are just making this stuff up, and doing a disservice to Wikipedia and the proud people of Shekhawati. '''
The above book has based the figures on Govt of India Information 2004. Mind that only a part of Churu is included in Shekhawati. So average of Jhunjhunu and Sikar districts are almost the average of Shekhawati region. Compare it with the average of Rajasthan.
**************** 
The districts you suggest to be highest in Literacy percentage Ajmer and Jaipur have the Literacy percentage as under:
*Ajmer              65.06 %
*Jaipur             70.63 %
*Do you still argue that my informations are wrong ?
*Don't you feel that you have wrongly deleted information from this article without any supporting documents ?
*Should not it be restored ?
*Shekhawati region has thus the highest Literacy percentage compared to any other region in Rajasthan.
burdak 02:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I too come from the Shekhawati region. I have ensured the facts and felt my self the excesses on farmers during Jagirdari system. As per above comments on this discussion the deleted matter about exploitation of farmers in Shekhawati is restored. The reference and facts have been provided in support of the matter given in the article. burdak 14:26, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Literacy percentage

message: Hi,
You have still not come out of the Jagirdar mentality. I have quoted the relevant book,page and publisher. It is the policy of Wikipedia that the matter should be from verifiable source. It has been provided. what else do you want. If I am communist how does it matter. Do I  not have right to write excesses of Jagirdars. How is it inflamotory. There is no Jagirdar but they are still having hangover of Jagirdari. It shows to what extent they have exploited. There is a policy of deletion and you are not following it. The matter will be restored. Do you think the people who have been mentioned are fictitious. Why do not you go and verify from those villages. Do you think it was ideal condition in Jagirdari system? Then why the Jagirdari abolition Act passed by Rajasthan Govt. ? Let the history be there for the future generations. burdak 02:46, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jagirdar mentality

message: The above gentle man has not signed and has no account so far on Wikipedia. There is a policy of Wikipedia that if contests are from verifiable sources and reference has been given then it can not be deleted without properly discussing on its talk page. But this gentleman is bent upon not to see the content on this page. Where as the contents regarding farmers' history have been there for last one year. Why???
The contents about farmers' history are not my views. It has been taken from page 96-97 of history book by
*Dr Natthan Singh: Jat - Itihas (Hindi), Jat Samaj Kalyan Parishad Gwalior, 2004
Dr Natthan Singh is an eminent writer which can be seen from his article. He is not a communist and so is me. I am not a communist. I am Indian wikipedian and contributing articles on historical and geographical subjects from very interior areas of Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh which have not been mentioned properly in the history books. How can the gentleman put allegation on me that I am a communist. I have facts on Wikipedia which can be verified from the references. If Google could not search it was not my fault. Google was not there when the exploitation of farmers was being done by the Jagirdars. Pandit Nehru had not visited those interior areas. If a fact is not mentioned by Pandit Nehru does it mean it is false ???
This unsigned gentleman says that such exploitation is not possible. Was he there at that time. Ask from the elderly persons of Sekhawati area. What was recorded in history was what the rulers wanted. Why the rulers would like that such things come out. Farmers were banned to take education. No schools were permitted for farmers. Then who will and why write their history. The facts mentioned ars true and can be verified from the villages mentioned.
I have mentioned that There were 37 kinds of ‘lags” (taxes) prevalent in the Shekhawati area. Together with the share of the produce known as "Hasil" these cesses meant that the Kisans had to part with more than eighty percent of their produce. The findings of the Sukhdeonarain Committee in the years 1940-42 bear this out. So before deletion from the article kindly verify from the above committee report. It is not a hidden fact. Where is the question of telling lies ???
As regards appering names in the list it is from the above book. They are not my relatives. Burdaks are found in about 20 countries which can be searched from the google search. They are not my relatives. Rather than deleting one should do further research and add more contents. Falt finding is not of any use.
If this type of deletion is done why should I do hard work and contribute to Wikipedia ???
With this request the matter may be restored. burdak 16:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion of [[Shekhawati]] farmers' history is unfortunate

message: The hidden agenda mentioned by you seems to be associated with you and not me. I am openly writing in my own name and account. You are writing anonymously without creating your account and disclosing your identity.
You seem to have poor knowledge about the world and Shekhawati you claim to belong. First you alleged that the literacy percentage given in the article is wrong. You said Jaipur and Ajmer are having highest literacy. Your assumptions were based on records of Jagirdari system. The Jaipur ruler promoted education but the Sikar ruler of Shekhawati banned education for farmers. It was because of this reason that the Shekhawati region was backward during British rule and Jagirdari system prior to Independence. It was only after Independence that the farmers of Shekhawati progressed in every field including education. I had proved as above that Shekhawati region has the highest percentage region-wise not the district-wise. It is a free encyclopedia open for all. Don’t find faults rather add something if you have knowledge. You simply believe in deleting rather than editing and improving.
When you were proved wrong on education front you started alleging that I am a communist. Regarding communism it appears you have absolutely no knowledge. The author I quoted above was B.E.Lenin, a socialist writer of Socialist-Revolutionary Party. What you are talking is  Vladimir Lenin who was a Communist revolutionary of Russia, the leader of the Bolshevik party, the first Premier of the Soviet Union, and the main theorist of Leninism, which he described as an adaptation of Marxism to "the age of imperialism."  There is no correlation between them.
The Shekhawati farmers did not have access to the authors you are mentioning. The way you mentioned “India's independence heralded the collapse of the British Empire. And for the first time in recorded history, a colonial power was handing over power to its subjects in a peaceful manner (the Partition notwithstanding).” It simply indicates your thinking about the farmers of Shekhawati. If you go to the grass-root level you will find the realities. The problem with Shekhawati rulers was that they were aligned with the Muslims first and then the Britishers. In Rajasthan Britishers were not directly ruling but it was through the Jagirdars and that was the reason of excesses on farmers. The Jagirdars had to pay royalty to the British rule as fixed by them and keep themselves surviving. Please go and get a copy of the Hindi film “Gulami” you will get the real picture if you don’t believe the author I quoted.
Here is another published book-
*By Dr Pema Ram: Shekhawati Kisan Andolan ka Itihas, Pages 14, 19, 21, 25, 220
The matter about which you want on internet is available on following sites:-
*http://pedia.nodeworks.com/S/SH/SHE/Shekhawati
*http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/ref/shekhawati
*http://khetri.en.ogarnij.info/
*http://john.bassett.en.ogarnij.info/en/Sikar
*http://www.answers.com/main/ntq-tname-shekhawati-fts_start-
*http://www.all-science-fair-
projects.com/science_fair_projects_encyclopedia/Shekhawati
*http://pali.rajasthan.en.ogarnij.info/
*http://www.encyclopedia-glossary.com/en/Shekhawati.html
Hence the deleted matter about farmers of Shekhawati is being restored. burdak 11:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Baseless discussion, without knowledge

message: The links you have provided above have been written by you. These sites copy material from WikiPedia (it says so on their page), and they have just copied your original bunch of lies from this site. Who are you trying to fool? 
Like a loyal Communist apparatchik you are going around spreading lies. I will go to those sites and delete those too.
The moderator has looked at the record and agreed with me that your material was baseless and useless. Several others who I have talked to have agreed with me. Even a reknowned writer for the Rajasthan Patrika, the biggest newspaper in Rajasthan State, has agreed with me.
End of discussion.
*********************
I may suggest that simply deleting material from the article is counter productive, as the earlier revisions cannot be deleted. It also does not make the material go away.
In the study of History there will be contrary views. That is and should be  welcome
In a modern encyclopedia, such as Wikipedia,  one should present all the version available, discuss them, an provide the evidence pro and con, and allow the  serious readers to make up their own minds.
We should be grateful for, and  treat such sites with respect.
On  the Jat led resistance to the Muslim/British  appointed/supported rajput zamindar/Jagirdar, there is a lot of material that is coming out today.
For one article see, in the yahoo Jat history forum
Jats in Rajastan- an article on the resistance:
JATS IN RAJASTHAN:
THE HARBINGERS OF DEMOCRATIC COALITION
Prof. Bhawani Singh
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/2960
I will provide more if  needed.
Please stop deleting this historical material. 
Ravi Chaudhary 02:20, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Same material 

message: I have nothing to do personally with this matter. It was part of history which will never be repeated. I just want to know specific reason why this unidentity gentleman does not want this matter to be on Wikipedia?. Why does not he disclose his identity? Is it his Jagir. Every body is free to write. burdak 07:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Specific reason

message: As I can see by the argument above, there's definetly a dispute about that particular section about the farmers. Since it now appears to be an edit war based on a content dispute, and not blatant vandalism. I highly recommend at filing a Request for comment on content disputes, to get more outside output on this. Also, please observe the no personal attacks policy. There's really no room at this talk page for personal critisim. Just cite your reliable sources, so this article could be properly verified. If you can't cite a reliable source, then it doesn't belong on the article. I'll be looking into the article to see what I can do. --LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 08:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What does the term "Kisan", "lag" and "cess" mean in the article? I'm trying to make it sound as neutual as I can, but it's difficult when I don't know what those (possibly farming) terms mean. I'm also commenting out the part about marriage, because I can't make a clear grasp on what it means. Does it mean if a "Kisan" marries someone, they must pay a tax on it? As I can make of it, the section appears to be a view of how the Shekhawti's were treated during the British occupation, and that is notable - if it is true. I'd appreciate it if you'd cite the sections I tagged.  --LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 08:59, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Totally disputed

message: The farmers' rights movement was but a footnote in the varied history of this region.
Must the largest section of this writeup be devoted to so-called excesses by one small section of the society on another small section?
This part of Rajasthan is famous for its art and its entrepreneurship.
A web search on Amazon gives 6 books on the painted walls (for which this area is world-famous) and 1 book on the entrepreneurship of the Marwaris of this area.
All of this Jat-Jagirdar business is nothing but old grouses brought onto the Internet. My recommendation is that failing incontrovertible proof, they be deleted; or at the very least, reduced to 1 or 2 paragraphs.
Bkumar1976 23:20, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sad 

message: This was an edit written to the main article, now moved here:
The following 5 paragraphs have absolutely no historical basis. None of the reputable published accounts of India's Independence movement, or the Farmers' Rights movements, make any mention of the excesses mentioned herein. While farmers all across India had to fight for rights, no doubt, this was not isolated to the Shekhawati region. So, for this material to be included in the Shekhawati section is meaningless.
:Please avoid using personal opinion on the articles. While on the topic of personal opinion. If that section doesn't get cleaned up and sourced soon, I'll delete it as original research. --LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 05:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While looking into this, I've noticed the section is an abstract version of the Hari Singh Burdak article. That article has two references, one which is reliable. Since User:LRBurdak was the one who wrote the article, could you please you <ref> style citations pointing to what part of the book those particular edits are part of? Which brings me to another question; your username is VERY similar to the subject of the article I referred to. May I ask what is your relationship to Hari Singh Burdak? You may want to read Wikipedia:Autobiography very carefully. --06:37, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disclaimer

message: .. or should I say "Dear Abby" ? ;-)
I was brought up in this region of Shekhawati. I went to school there. I know a little bit of the history.
I flatly refuse to believe what Mr. Burdak is writing, for various reasons:
1. None of the published books on the Indian Farmers' agitation movements (and there have been several) mention anything resembling what he has written.
2. Mr. Burdak claimed (and this can be verified) that the brides of these farmers had to spend their first night in the landlord's house. This is preposterous and extremely insulting to every Indian out there. This is not in our culture. Maybe Mr. Burdak is expressing deep-rooted fantasies; I don't know. But logically and factually this is wrong. It made my blood boil to read an outright lie like this.
3. Mr. Burdak claims Hari Singh Burdak (a relative, ostensibly) was a "great freedom fighter". Unfortunately, none of the books written on the Indian Freedom movement mention this gentleman. Google Book Search is your friend (thank you, almighty Google).
4. Mr. Burdak claims that 80% of the farmer's produce had to be given to the landlord. I am sorry, but no farmer on this planet can survive on 20%. Especially considering the fact that in those days, farming methods were so backward that the farmer was happy to get by. Even today, farmers all over India regularly commit suicide because they can't survive on just farming; and this is despite the Green Revolution. 
I have listed a recently published book by Stern above. That makes no mention of any of these fantasies, and this book is about this region and this time period. 
Once again I'll say: a Google Book Search for the words "shekhawati farmers" results in no mention of the things he writes. Even though GBS has indexed many Indian reports and books on the jagirdari abolition movement, there is no mention of these things (try a GBS on jagirdari abolition movement, and see the number of hits).
:First of all, try not to put down Mr. Burdak by saying he has deep rooted fantasies. It's just rude. Also, the more I look into the issues about the farmers, the more I think it's a hoax. I have recently issued an outside request for comment on this whole article, as you see below. Hopefully they can help a bit. I'm currently at my local library and after I'm done with this, I may look up some books about India, see if I can find anything on it. --LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 23:40, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm grateful that you're looking into this. 
I was (and still am) extremely upset at Mr. Burdak for making such preposterous claims. The bride thing was an outright lie. It upsets me because in this part of the country we treat women with respect. Preserving the honor of a woman is paramount. Mr. Burdak's claim of such behaviour was reprehensible; the only reason that I can think of why he would make such a claim is to offend people. The whole writeup of his was offensive; but this bride thing just took the cake.
Look at it another way: a search of books in Amazon comes up with 6 books on the painted walls of Shekhawati. And yet these frescoes barely get a mention! The thing that has made this region world-famous barely gets a mention; and stuff that is totally undocumented and unverified occupies centerstage! Sure we can do better.
69.232.202.229 02:47, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dear Moderator 

message: 1st thought - woud all the participants please sign their comments? I am having a heck of a time following this...
2nd thought - there is a lot of missing citation tags - perhaps someone could fill some of these in, if they cannot be substantiated, they probably need to leave.Bridesmill 22:58, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFC 

message: Jodhpur court records? Muzaffarnagar court records? What does that have to with Shekhawati? Why don't you put the material in the Jodhpur city WiKi then? In an article about Shekhawati, why are we listing court records from far away places like Muzaffarnagar? Is it because these records cannot be verified independently by anyone else?
And more importantly: the ISBN number of this reference, 8188629529, does NOT exist!
Moderator, can you please put an end to this edit war? I am tired of cleaning up after these people.
69.232.202.229 03:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jodhpur? Muzzafarnagar? 

message: Justice Kan Singh, retired Judge of High Court of Rajasthan, wrote on page 47 in an article in English in SOUVENIR-1998 of Parivar Parichay, published by – The souvenir sub committee of Parivar Parichay, 4/28, Lodi Colony, New Delhi – 110003, Ph 011-24694972 as under:
“Every thing that the Kisan had, never treated as his own. In Jagir areas all cultivators were really landless. There was no tenancy law and one could be thrown away from the land one cultivated at the pleasure of Jagirdar, his "malik". In most of the Jagirs a Jagirdar would in the first instance be taking fifty percent of the produce. This would be taken by actual division of the produce on the thrashing floor or by appraisal of the standing crop (kunta). Then over and above the share of the produce the Kisan had to pay numerous "lags" or cesses.
Together with the share of the produce known as "Hasil" these cesses meant that the Kisans had to part with more than eighty percent of their produce. The findings of the Sukhdeonarain Committee in the years 1940-42 bear this out. If a Kisan had to marry his daughter he had to pay "Chavri Lag" if he held a dinner then a "Kansa Lag"; if members of the family separated then "Dhunwa Lag" and so on. If the Jagirdar had a guest then fodder for his mount had to be supplied. Then there was "begar" that is forced labour, for tilling the personal lands of the Jagirdar. The homestead in which the Kisan lived in the Abadi had to be vacated in case he ceased cultivating the land. He could not alienate the plot to anyone.”
Dr Natthan Singh in his book on Jat History in the light of facts – “Jat Itihas (Hindi)” published in 2004 by Jat Samaj Kalyan Parishad Gwalior, Ph 0751- 2332130 writes on page 96-97 in Hindi, which makes sense as under:
“Before independence the conditions of the farmers were worst. The farmers of the Shekhawati region were exploited and oppressed by the Jagirdars during British Raj. They were deprived of fundamental rights. When the Jagirdars did not get cesses known as “lag” or “begar” in time, they were given hard punishments and their crops were destroyed.    
There were 37 kinds of ‘lags” prevalent in the Shekhawati area.
Farmers of the Shekhawati, mainly the Jats, united against oppression of Jagirdars by forming ‘Sikar Jat-Kisan-Panchayat’ and stopped giving "lags" or cesses to the Jagirdards. The ‘Jaipur Praja-Mandal’ also supported the Shekhawati farmers’ movement against abolition of Jagirdari system. The leaders of ‘Bijoria-Kisan-Movement’ of 1922, 1931, and 1932 supported the movement of Shekhawati farmers. The Jagirdars tried to suppress the movement in many ways. Many farmers were killed and a large number were sent to jail. A Jat farmer was beaten to death in the market of Sikar town; his dead body was thrown and insulted. This movement got support from famous Kisan leaders like, Baldev Ram Mirdha, Nathuram Mirdha and Chaudhari Kumbharam Arya. After a long struggle the farmers got rid of oppression and got the ownership rights over the land they were cultivating.
The leading Jat farmers of Shekhawati region, who played important role in the movement for abolition of the Jagirdari system, were:    
*Iswar Singh Bhamu, Bhairupura,    
*Hari Singh Burdak and Hardeva Burdak,Palthana,    
*Prithvi Singh Bhukar, Gothra (Bhukaran), *Ganeshram Kudan,    
*Panne Singh Batar, Bataranau,    
*Goru Singh Katalathal,    
*Deva Singh Bochalya,    
*Chandrabhan Singh,   
Shekhawati farmers' movement against abolition of Jagirs got great support from outside Kisan leaders like Sir Chhotu Ram from Haryana, Kunwar Ratan Singh and Thakur Deshraj from Bharatpur, Kunwar Hukum Singh from Aangai.” 
The name of Hardev Singh Nehra, Harsawa to the above list of freedom fighter farmers was added on the basis of report published in ‘Rajasthan Patrika’, a local Hindi newspaper, on 29 March 1997.
    
If you see the early version of this article from its history you will find that above names of freedom fighter farmers were given with name of villages as have been mentioned by Dr Natthan Singh as quoted above. At serial number two of this list there were two names viz Haru Singh and Hardeva Palwana. In fact the village Palthana was miss spelt as Palwana. I later visited the Shekhawati area and confirmed from local sources and corrected their surnames as well as Palwana to Palthana. 
The surnames were given in a book “Jat Jwala” Vth issue published by All India Jat Mahasabha, Sikar in year 2002. It is in Hindi. It was confirmed from an article on freedom fighters in Shekhawati in this book on page 37 that it was Hari Singh Burdak who was earlier mentioned as Haru Palwana by Dr Natthan Singh and so was in this article. 
So the allegation that he was my relative is not correct. I do not belong to his district Sikar. Had he been my relative I would not have recorded his name wrongly. This is the result of continuous research and exploration that true facts have come to light.
It is thus clear from above that the matter being disputed is written by Justice Kan Singh, retired Judge of High Court of Rajasthan. Justice Kan Singh has also mentioned in above article that the present generation can not even think of what our ancestors have tolerated. It is further supported by Dr Pema Ram, and other records provided by Ravi Chaudhary. 
I am visiting very interior areas of Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh in India. These places hardly find any literature in English or on Internet. I ensure from the field visit and literature in local languages about the authenticity of the matter. If Wikipedia does not like it I will leave giving articles on it. Thanks.  burdak 06:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if you can find the sources in accordance to WP:RS, then it's all good. Can you also cite each area as a blah, so we can easily pinpoint what reference goes to what part of the article? But I have one last concern. Can we try to keep the farmers section of the article balanced the the rest of it? If you want to have an in-depth look into the mistreatment of farmers, you can create a new article about it; for example: Shekhawati farmers during the British Raj or something similar. Also, I'd like to see modern day statistics of farming. --LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 08:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources quoted for the matter on Shekhawati farmers

message: ****In India there is a category of Non Merit Appointees to Top Government positions (called OBC Reservation categories).  Mr BURDAK are you an OBC appointee?? Perhaps Mr Burdak is doing more work writing political histories rather work for the upliftment of tribals in his state of Madhya Pradesh; otherwise why  the deplorable conditions of tribals as has been highlighted by a commentator above. These comments may sound personal. My apologies, but the background of people who are politically inclined has to be highlighted when we evaluate their utterances and writings.[posted by anonymous IP 59.94.102.234]
'''
response> 
'''
History is a political subject, a study of  human beings and their societies.
Personal attacks are not a substitute for evidence and fact, nor conducive to the study of history
We generally hope to  learn from history- what caused the conditions of a society, , including the tribals of Madhya Pradesh, in Central India , that you draw our attention to.
What caused the  feudal conditions in Shekhawati to  develop and exist? What was the socio- religious- money lender nexus, that caused so much tyranny for the population.
How did the public maintain their cohesiveness, and even in the darkest days not lose their  family structures, their political structures, their identities, and not be reduced to the pathetic  conditions  of tribals ( e,g in Madhya Pradesh, and Eastern U.P, Bihar, etc) and others wherever these feudal regimes existed?.
Why did the feudal society not succeed ? 
How was  the tyranny of these  feudal regime  broken eventually?.
These are all valid questions, and people do want to know. .
Making personal attacks  is not going to make the  evidence for the atrocities in the Shekhawati and other places  go away or stop the information from being disseminated.
Ravi Chaudhary 20:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''PERSONAL ATTACKS'''