Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Role-playing games/Archive 5

message: As some of you know (as mentioned in above notices), many GURPS articles have been up for AfD.  Other related articles have also been slowly (or not so slowly) being also put up for AfD.  This is mainly the action of one editor.  Let me make it clear that while I don't agree with all of the reasons given by this editor in his comments, nor his somewhat "slash-and-burn" approach, it is not my intention to insult or denigrate his actions or the editor personally.  
My main appeal here is to call upon all those involved in the project here to help improve these, and related articles, so that we can stop spending our time defending them in AfD nominations.  I'm not an "official" member of this project but am an obvious sympathizer.  Some (many?) of you might have big libraries of back issues of Dragon, Pyramid, Dungeon, etc, which could have relevant reviews of these RPGs, interviews with their creators, interviews with designers who cite creators (e.g. inspiration for them becoming game designers), etc.  I don't have such a library of back issues.  Some relevant material is not available online, or is only available with a subscription (e.g. online back issues of Pyramid).  
I've been trying to work on some of these articles, but it's a more time-consuming task to locate and properly source them than it is to nominate them for deletion and sit back for the result (and, yes, I certainly acknowledge that it's not necessarily the responsibility of a nominator to look for sources).  In any event, I'm urging all interested parties to help improve these articles so that we can preemptively avoid AfD discussions, many recent ones of which have been all very repetitive.  Improve articles (mainly by sourcing them), and redirect the ones that can't be improved.  If you remove a < tag, it would help if you helped supply some proof of notability (please don't just say "a simple web search demonstrates notability" or whatever).  This particular editor seems intent upon nominating articles that have had notability tags removed from them.  So we should do something to improve them to demonstrate exactly how notable they are (or redirect as appropriate).  
It is not my intention here to canvass for votes in these AfDs, but to sincerely appeal to you all who have an interest in RPGs and related subjects/articles for your assistance.  Some articles that have recently attracted notice include (in no particular order):
*GURPS and many of the GURPS related articles on supplements, and many related to them like the contributing artists, game designers, etc. - Result was KEEP Turlo Lomon 05:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A lot of the articles are being preemptively declared "NN" and redirected to List of GURPS books without any prior debate. I actually think that might be a good thing right now, though; redirecting articles gets them out of the way of the current deletion storm and allows them to be more easily worked on later without an arbitrary 5-day limit. Bryan Derksen 23:31, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I would agree.  I've redirected a few of the GURPS articles myself, usually after trying to locate some reviews online, or something that would indicate notability and not finding anything.  This is entirely appropriate and fits into what I've mentioned above (i.e. improve if possible, else redirect).  One reason why I wanted to mention this is to see if people might have reviews or other appropriate materials that aren't necessarily available online.  For example, Graeme Davis might be considered the "father" of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (at least by some people).  However, the first edition was developed and published in the mid 1980s (I think).  So there likely isn't so much to find about this online as it's before the deluge of the internet.  Thanks!  --Craw-daddy | T | 23:41, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been redirecting a lot of them, for precisely the reasons Bryan describes.  Hopefully the remaining articles in :Category:GURPS that aren't already up for AfD all make their notability pretty clear. Percy Snoodle 07:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Are you talking about GURPS 4e Basic Set? Even not considering that WP:NOTINHERITED itself says "Often, sub-articles are created for formatting and display purposes, however - this does not imply an "inherited notability" per se, but is often accepted in the context of ease of formatting and navigation, such as with books and albums", you have nothing to worry about: precedents are not considered valid arguments in Wikipedia. You won't catch me saying "What about article x?"! Happy editing, Goochelaar 17:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

text: If nobody else opposes in the next few days, I shall do so myself for the first two books (Bunnies and Discworld), as, unprompted, I have done for several other GURPS books. On the other hand, I feel that GURPS Infinite Worlds and GURPS Space, having be awarded Origins awards in their categories, deserve to survive. --Goochelaar 17:48, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with regards to Space and Infinite Worlds (i.e. keeping them as independent articles) as they have both won Origins Awards. I will withhold judgement on the others, but would lean towards redirecting them as specified. --Craw-daddy | T | 21:44, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

text:  As a matter of interest, Goochelaar, you seem to know a lot about these games. Have you ever worked for the publisher, their distributors or agents? How are you personally connected to these game supplements? --Gavin Collins 20:40, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your interest in my professional life. No, I am a mathematician based in Rome, Italy, actually. You are welcome to check my user page and my contribution history for more about my professional interests and hobbies. --Goochelaar 21:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Er, that looks like it only took a basic level of knowledge and fact-finding ability. --Kizor 22:18, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

text:  Gavin, your constant implications of COI towards people who disagree with you are definitely not assuming good faith.  Edward321 02:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Please do not redirect Bunnies and Burrows to anything else. It is a stand-alone roleplaying game that was also licensed as a game world for GURPS, as stated in the article. -- JHunterJ 21:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Bunnies and Burrows seems to predate GURPS by a decade, the GURPS adaptation is only one of several and it's a fully independent system on its own. I can't support redirecting it. --Kizor 22:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Likewise I don't support redirecting B&B or the two award-winning games.  I've no strong feeling about GURPS Discworld, other than that WikiProject Discworld deserve a say in the matter. Percy Snoodle 08:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Response I can't see the reason why these articles where created, as they do not provide evidence of notability per WP:NOTABILITY in general and WP:FICTION in particular. Lets agree to disagree and put them up for AfD. --Gavin Collins 08:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *:(They aren't fiction.) What do you have against award-winning (WP:NOTABILITY-meeting) games? -- JHunterJ 11:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I don't know how many times I must repeat this, but Infinite Worlds and Space each won an Origins award.  This is clearly stated in the articles, with a reference provided to the official site.  How does this not demonstrate they are notable?  Also, out of curiousity I ask what edits of yours, Gavin, on GURPS books are being reverted?  --Craw-daddy | T | 14:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Save yourself the effort of repeating what you have said, as they did not actually win, but were nominated for a prize. Independent evidence of notability is required, not just your opinion. My tagging of the GURPS related articles has been reversed on several occassions. But this is not the issue here: unless you can come up with more sources of notability; someone will edit out the unreferenced materials at some point in the future, as they don't stand up to independent review. --Gavin Collins 14:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gavin, just to be sure: you are not talking about GURPS Infinite Worlds (winner in 2005 as "Role-Playing Game Supplement of the Year") and GURPS Space (winner in 1988 in the same category), are you? --Goochelaar 14:55, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Did you read what I stated, and the articles themselves?  The two mentioned did win the awards and that is clearly referenced in the articles (one of them was referenced, and I just added the other reference now).  --Craw-daddy | T | 15:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

text: * With regard to the notability, you have been down this road before, so I won't argue with you further. Have a look the comments of the Admin who closed Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/GURPS 4e Basic Set (2nd nomination), but at the end of the day you may well be right. --Gavin Collins 16:10, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A call for assistance

message: Someone had a field day yesterday.
*Polaris (role-playing game) - up for deletion.  
:Well, I added in some things I found, have a feeling there's more out there...  --Craw-daddy | T | 20:03, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added references to several reviews, and consequently removed the "unsourced" tag. As for notability, I think it is established, but prefer to wait for other people's opinions --Goochelaar 16:38, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Adding more myself. I'll work on notability. Web Warlock 16:54, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I am going to remove the "fictionlist" tag in a few days from TWERPS if no one objects. That tag refers to fictional uses or occurrences of real-life subjects. If the characters of a novel were depicted to play TWERPS, or a Simpsons episode revolved around a TWERPS manual, such an information would be a "fictional references" to TWERPS. But the tagged section just refers to published supplements of the game. --Goochelaar 17:50, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do... that tag doesn't make sense there at all. Pinball22 18:12, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I see he's given up on AFDs.  At least when he was putting stuff up for deletion, the good stuff got improved and the chaff got deleted; now we just end up with a mess of tags on everything. Percy Snoodle 14:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I see he's going for the non-English-language articles, which will be hard to source. Percy Snoodle 14:07, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not saiyng that all of these should/must be saved, but there are several that are clearly worthy, like TWERPS.  Unfortunately, (as I've stated elsewhere) I don't have a huge back libray of Dragon or anything like that, so am generally limited to what I can find online.  Those that do have such resources, I encourage them to use them.  A few of these can be merged/redirected to some appropriate other article (like, for example, The Yellow Clearance Black Box Blues).  --Craw-daddy | T | 14:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Gavin has taken it upon himself to put Mutants and Masterminds up for deletion.  I think it is time we investigate asking for sactions or a block based on bad faith edits. Web Warlock 16:44, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. This latest nomination for deletion seems to be retaliatory, since he made the nomination after a tag was removed from the article, and he apparently disagreed with the reasoning behind the removal. Instead of discussing it on the talk page and trying to find consensus, he immediately nominated the article for deletion. Rray 16:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I would agree. User conduct RFC? Have at least two of us tried to talk to him about it to no beneficial result? SamBC(talk) 17:19, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am supposed to be working at my actual job right now.  But if someone can point me to the right place then great. I'll certainly do what I can. Web Warlock 17:22, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I put the How to template there in the first place. I did so is because most of the article (over 1,300 words) are dedicated to the game setting. You can ignore WP:NOT#GUIDE if you wish, but the tag should be reinstated in good faith. I can understand if Craw-daddy and WebWarlock disagree with my opinion, but if they just delete my edits without discussion, then we waste each other's time. --Gavin Collins 17:46, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The most casual research would show that the text in question is not game setting but rather game rules (yes there is a difference) and rules that make the game notable.  I have a better idea, stop adding AfD tags unless you know what you are talking about, which I am making the public claim that you don't know what you are talking about. Web Warlock 17:50, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've certainly put a great deal of effort into trying to work things out with Gavin, and am sad to see that it hasn't made much difference.  Yes, I said that tagging things was better than AfD'ing them, but just putting a Notability tag on every article about an RPG-related topic, whether it's the right one or not, without either making an attempt to discern notability or to discuss concerns with editors who are more knowledgeable in the area, isn't much better.  If someone wants to start an RfC, I'm quite willing to participate as someone who has tried to resolve the issue.  Gavin, if you're reading this and want to demonstrate that you're willing to work with other editors to improve these articles instead of continuing an attack, I think we'd all be happy to do that instead. Pinball22 20:16, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. It is not something I want to persue for what amounts to basically a vandal.  However, if it does get worse then that is the action we will need to take.  In the meantime the Mutants and Masterminds article has been removed from AfD and 12 sources added.  I'd like some more but I NEED to do my actual day job now.  Thanks to all those that also helped! Web Warlock 20:53, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I would also support and certify an entry on WP:RFC/U, as I believe I've made good faith efforts to talk about things with Gavin. I think characterising it as vandalism almost trivialises it; the behaviour seems almost pathological. However, I don't have the time to write up the initial RFC at this point. I'll be glad to add diffs and my signature if/when someone writes one up. SamBC(talk) 21:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Gavin, saying that this article contains "how-to" material is somewhat like saying it about an article like Football (soccer). It explains, in part or fully, the rules of a game; it does not explain "how to" be a good player, how to bake a cake or how to repair a bike. --Goochelaar 22:20, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And *that* is why I removed the  tag.  I guess I should have explained myself more clearly (on the talk page), but I said that I thought it didn't apply in my "edit comment".  My apologies for not being clearer.  --Craw-daddy | T | 22:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gavin, I don't object to you tagging articles that need work -- that's the appropriate way to get things improved.  The "notability" tags aren't the best way to approach it in most cases, though, as their implication is that you think the subject shouldn't have an article.  Yes, there are undoubtedly cases where that's true, but you don't appear to be making any effort to separate those from articles that simply need better referencing -- for example, you tagged D20 System and RPGA for notability, which indicates to me that you did no research at all before simply slapping a tag on the articles.  Try tagging articles with more specific templates for concerns about references or style and, most importantly, discussing your specific concerns on the article talk pages or here to get input from knowledgeable editors and things will go much more smoothly, I think. Pinball22 13:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Response I have tried tagging article like Mutants and Masterminds with more specific templates, but these have been unilaterally removed (see above). If the tags are removed without discussion, then that gives me a clear mandate to go for AfD to get third party opinion about lack of notability or inappropriate content. With regard to RPGA, there are no verifiable sources at all. I would recommend that RPGA to be merged into Wizards of the Coast before someone prods it, as it looks like thee notability of a small marketing division of Hasbro is doubtful to say the least. D20 System has improved, but it contains lots of statements that have no external sources.--Gavin Collins 16:32, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *How about more specific and logical templates?  If an article isn't a how-to, don't tag it with the how-to tag.  When you do things like that it just makes it more apparent that you don't understand the subject and aren't making an effort to.  The RPGA is more than a "small marketing division of Hasbro" -- it's been a significant organization in producing gaming events for nearly 30 years.  And if your concern about D20 System was a lack of sources, why not add fact tags and discuss sections that you think need sourcing?  What you did was to mark something that is clearly notable with a tag indicating that you don't think it merits an article, and not even with an appropriate tag, since it's not about a specific book. Pinball22 17:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Comment I think your affection for these games are getting in the way of sound judgement when it comes the use of the How to template. Although the article states that Mutants and Masterminds is a "game system is designed to allow players to create virtually any type of hero or villain desired", the article is too focused on the system settings, with over 1,300 words contained in the sections "System" and "Setting", to make it of any encylopedic varlue. The reason is that the long description of the system and settings is contrary to the guideline WP:NOT#HOWTO. If this game system was a book, that would be the same as saying that the article is too focused on plot summary. A general rule of thumb to follow if unsure: if the content only has value to people actually playing the game, it is unsuitable. Keep in mind that RPG articles should be readable and interesting to non-gamers; remember the bigger picture. The key point to remember: Wikipedia is not a game guide, that is why the template "Howto" is highly relevent to this article. --Gavin Collins 09:23, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *I don't think the system/setting descriptions are how-to information... they don't tell me how to play the game, but they do tell me what sorts of settings have been created for the game and what parts of the game mechanics are unusual/different from other RPGs.  These seem to me like basic facts required to create a page that describes the game, and not at all like instructions. Pinball22 16:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Even More 9/26/2007 

message: Following the recent discussion about several GURPS books, the debaters stumbled more than once upon the fact that it is often difficult to ascertain the notability of a RPG with respect to that of a novel or a film. These are covered in the general press, there are several (paper and web-based) journals devoted to literature and cinema, and so on. RPGs, on the other hand, are rarely, if ever, covered in the non-dedicated press, and even dedicated magazines are rare and not rich in reviews. Most of the information about RPGs is gathered by an interested person by perusing a variety of official and unofficial websites, mailing lists, newsgroups, blogs and so on; then one makes one's mind, in a personal, private version of notability for one's own use. Of course I am not by far suggesting that sources for RPGs' notability should be so haphazardly and unreliably determined and collected.
What I suggest is to "review" some sources of reviews and determine whether, or in what measure, they can be considered reliable. RPGnet is one of the more frequently cited source: could it be taken as such a source? What about other sites in which, as in this one, reviews are mostly user-submitted but subject to a modicum of control? More in general, where does the border between a formal, reliable web-based magazine and an unreliable one lie? 
Do you have other ideas for clarifying the general notability guidelines when applied to RPGs, as has been done for other categories of subjects (such as numbers, pornographic actors or films)? --Goochelaar 16:37, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Based on the current GURPS issue and the previous D&D issue, I think this is an absolute must.Turlo Lomon 16:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd say the biggest problem is that some people arguing for deletion seem ignorant of roleplaying and unwilling to listen to those who know more about the subject. The notability of the Origins Awards is obvious to anyone familiar with roleplaying, yet even after the notability of the Origins Awards was clearly explained, some of them continued to say they are mere fan awards or even that they were awards created by a single person. 
Is there any standard of notability for console or board games?  That might be useful. Edward321 03:02, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed! The website of a society awarding a prize is a primary source, which is the best possible kind of source, when it is available. --Goochelaar 18:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I see your point, and I agree with you. In some editors' opinion, such "small" games do presently fail notability guidelines. My hope is that a better focus on what means for a RPG to be notable, in the frame of general guidelines but with an understanding of the peculiarity of RPGs, will specifically help to cover obscure RPGs. --Goochelaar 18:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Answer Yes, it is notable. Origins Award does not just go to SJG products, but any product in the field. You can review the past winners on the link. The entire gaming industry is reflected. Turlo Lomon 09:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To the best of my knowledge, Origins Awards are awarded by the Academy of Adventure Gaming Arts and Design exactly like Academy Awards are awarded annually by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences (which is indeed composed of motion picture professionals). If you manage to prove that Academy Awards are not notable, you will have proved that Origins are not (and will become famous worldwide). --Goochelaar 12:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: A role-playing game is generally notable if it verifiably meets through reliable sources, one or more of the following criteria: 
# The game has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial published works whose sources are independent of the game itself, with at least some of these works serving a general audience. This includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, other books, television documentaries and reviews. Some of these works should contain sufficient critical commentary to allow the article to grow past a simple plot summary. (with the same notes as above)
#* Coverage from an online review website can be considered non-trivial for the previous criterion if the coverage includes work by at least one professional reviewer or writer.  Multiple reviews on a single website do not impart additional notability, so online reviews must come from multiple sources or be supported by additional coverage.
# The game has won a major award.
# The game represents a significant milestone in the development of role-playing games.
#* This criterion includes the first game to use a game mechanic which was later widely adopted; the first game within a given major genre of setting or the first to use a setting which was later widely used; the first to be published in a certain way, for example online or print-on-demand; or which is otherwise described as a significant step by multiple reliable sources.  Generic role-playing games do not prevent future setting-specific games from counting under this criterion.
# The game's designer or setting is so historically significant that any officially associated works may be considered notable; or it is the focus of an active WikiProject
#* This includes licensed games of significant franchises.
 Percy Snoodle 12:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A policy for RPG notability?

message: Broke this out as a seperate subsection. I think we all agree that we need criteria.  So, now what to suggest. These are my ideas.
*Won anything from :Category:Games awards.
*Received 3 or more independant reviews classified as secondary sources.
*Introduced something original to the RPG world. (See Bunnies & Burrows for an example) - and must be sourced.
If we focus on writing these more like an entry of a book before adding what a lot of people describe as "fancruft", we may have a chance at reducing the amount of defensive actions we need to take. I, for one, am getting tired constantly defending our work from people who aren't familiar with our culture. In addition, I need someone to compare this to the other policies to make sures ours is an equivalent. Turlo Lomon 10:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A role-playing game is generally notable if it verifiably meets through reliable sources, one or more of the following criteria: 
# The game has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial published works whose sources are independent of the game itself, with at least some of these works serving a general audience. This includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, other books, television documentaries and reviews. Some of these works should contain sufficient critical commentary to allow the article to grow past a simple plot summary. (with the same notes as above)
#* Coverage from an online review website can be considered non-trivial for the previous criterion if the coverage includes work by at least one professional reviewer or writer.  Multiple reviews on a single website do not impart additional notability, so online reviews must come from multiple sources or be supported by additional coverage.
# The game has won a major award.
# The game represents a significant milestone in the development of role-playing games.
#* This criterion includes the first game to use a game mechanic which was later widely adopted; the first game within a given major genre of setting or the first to use a setting which was later widely used; the first to be published in a certain way, for example online or print-on-demand; or which is otherwise described as a significant step by multiple reliable sources.  Generic role-playing games do not prevent future setting-specific games from counting under this criterion.
# The game's designer or setting is so historically significant that any officially associated works may be considered notable; or it is the focus of an active WikiProject
#* This includes licensed games of significant franchises.
 Percy Snoodle 12:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggested criteria

message: I hate to dump this off on other people, but again thought it could be valuable to get lots of input...  Anyone know of reliable refs for the ENnie Awards?  I just thought with all the hoo-hah going on with the recent AfDs, here's another award that might be used to establish notability for RPGs/RPG supplements.  In order to do so, we should first establish notability (if possible) for the awards themselves.  :)  --Craw-daddy | T | 23:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: is the site. More awards the better. Turlo Lomon 00:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:   Yeah I knew that was the site, but as I said, I think we need (secondary) references for the ENnies themselves, i.e. establish notability for these awards first, and then use them to help establish notability for other RPGs.  --Craw-daddy | T | 02:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ENnie Awards

message: Starting a new list, since we are close to finishing up the last big mess. Turlo Lomon 10:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just added some references here --Goochelaar 16:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A couple of days ago (before Gavin's tag) I had inserted a reference a French review from Casus Belli magazine. It's difficult to get more third-party... --Goochelaar 16:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone have the GURPS for Dummies book? That should be 3rd party enough.  I have it, but I am beat now.  I'll start in on it in the morning. Web Warlock 03:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That has already been tried. The book was written in partnership with the publisher of GURPS, so it not really an independent source of notability. --Gavin Collins 11:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that the Dummies publishers thought it was worth it ought to make sense... the fact they then talked to the publishers of the original is just research. It doesn't have to be written independently, it has to be published independently. SamBC(talk) 11:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text: The authors of the book have no ties to the game industry. So it was produced in partnership with SJG. That's still less than the books by Microsoft Press on various Windows products and yet they are still considered to be secondary sources. I say GURPS for Dummies is notable, and I am prepared to challenge the claim to the contrary. Gavin you are looking more and more like you have some sort of axe to grind with RPGs in general and GURPS in particular. You are loosing credibilty as a non-biased editor and looking more and more like the edits and AfDs are done in bad faith. Web Warlock 12:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I suppose that, even if a publishing house wanted to, it could not publish a book detailing most of the rules of a game without the approval of the game publisher... --Goochelaar 16:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps, but it's Wiley that published the book, not Steve Jackson Games.  --Craw-daddy | T | 21:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes! I realise that my words conveyed a message almost opposite to my intention: I meant that I consider the For Dummies book an independent source indeed, and that the "SJG-approved" (or however it is labelled) status does not invalidate this because it is almost unavoidable. (The alternative would be something like an "unauthorised biography", which might be far more unreliable for other reasons...). --Goochelaar 22:15, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I've reverted them... WP:CITE#HOW contradicts them directly. They see to be a new user, so maybe someone should patiently explain. WP:FN merely explains that they can be used for references, and doesn't say that they must be. Finally, and clinchingly, they're both guidelines, not policies, and therefore it's not really appropriate to run around enforcing them. SamBC(talk) 11:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am glad the reference I found by wading through my partial collection of Casus Belli did not disappear like tears in rain! Goochelaar 16:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: AfD & Related Cleanup

message: *
:*To be fair, I can see the nominator's point. The article seems to be written in entirely in-universe style (except the last section), and there's little indication of what on earth it's talking about to anyone who isn't up-to-date with White Wolf background. Actually, as I'm not up to date with White Wolf background, I'm just assuming that it's related to the most recent round of rejigging of that universe. If the article isn't fixed, it probably should be deleted. Are the Khaibit actually independently notable? SamBC(talk) 00:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Resolved

message: Our favorite AfD'r has been hitting areas beyond RPG's in the Gaming field.  One heavily assaulted area has been the Star Fleet Universe (Star Fleet Battles, Star Fleet Battle Force Prime Directive RPG), and has succeeded in getting some of them deleted (though, I admit that even as the author of some of them, a few of them probably should have been elimitated).
I am hoping that you are willing to look beyond just RPGs and help out the rest of the table-top gaming community here.  As it is, the SFU does cross over into the RPG arena with Prime Directive.  The problem we have is that there are not many editors covering the SFU, and I know for one that I am not the best editor when it comes to knowing how to do cites and such.  --Donovan Ravenhull 18:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help beyond the RPG arena? 

message: Here is the list culled from the entries above that still need some help.  Most of these are listed under the notability for books which I do not believe is appropriate at all.  We need to get the guidelines together.
*9th Level Games - notability (producers of Kobolds Ate My Baby!)
*Aces & Eights - notability
*Ad Astra (role-playing game) - notability
:  I haven't been able to locate any (online) sources for this one, myself.  --Craw-daddy | T | 20:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe we need an "Indie" or "Homebrew RPGs" page to cover all of these. Web Warlock 20:17, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Personally I think that notability has been established.  Multiple reviews of supplements by Pyramid and on RPGnet seem sufficient, together with the awards.  --Craw-daddy | T | 20:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:   Notability tag removed (not by me, but another person, so at least there's two of us who think this is okay now).  More references still welcome, of course.  Kudos to Web Warlock for all the hard work on this article (and the others he's worked on recently)!! --Craw-daddy | T | 23:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks!  I'd hate to see this stuff disapear.  And thanks to you and all the others as well that came in for stealth edits! Web Warlock 01:55, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Probably hard to find English sources on this one.  --Craw-daddy | T | 20:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: The article was deleted, but restored on my request since it's one of the most well-known and best-selling Swedish RPGs. I'll try to add content and references. Jonas Ferry 19:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Those of you who have them, pull out your old RPG magazines to locate those reviews.  --Craw-daddy | T | 20:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Got my Dragon Mag CDs out last night. Web Warlock 20:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: As mentioned above, have added a few things and it seems that more should be out there (at least according to the RPGnet review which mentioned "high praise" by "many designers".  --Craw-daddy | T | 20:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Likely hard to source.  See User talk:Agamemnon2#Praedor for his comment about this when I contacted him.  --Craw-daddy | T | 20:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I think that this particular article is analogous to having an article of the form List of Star Trek role-playing games or having a disambiguation page for the term "Star Trek role-playing game" since (as you can see from the article) there are several that have the same (or similar) names.  As such I feel the existence of this page is entirely appropriate in its current form.  I have stated as such on the article's talk page.  --Craw-daddy | T | 12:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Perhaps should be merged with Paranoia.  --Craw-daddy | T | 20:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  agreed. Web Warlock 20:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Merged (a tiny bit) and redirected to Paranoia  --Craw-daddy | T | 23:13, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: See comment my comment above about GURPS.  --Craw-daddy | T | 20:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revised List 

message: : subsequently overturned at WP:DRV and deleted 2007-10-08.
:: --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 12:42, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outcomes 

message: Members of WikiProject Role-playing games.  The following is the text I will be placing on User:Gavin.collins talk page.  Please make edits as you see fit.  I will wait 24 hours before placing this and getting the progress on any Admin action that needs to be addressed.  Thank you. Web Warlock 15:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Comment.  I'm inclined to think that we should just go ahead with an RfC instead of this -- that will both bring it to a wider audience and follow the appropriate process.  What does everyone else think?  Pinball22 18:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Comment - This then can be our opening for that.  I am happy with either, I just have a lot to do right now. Web Warlock 18:57, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Comment In all fairness, I think some of the notability tags are warranted, but likely many of them could be replaced with  tags.  There are many articles that need references (other than primary refs).  Also, there are some articles that should be rewritten, keeping in mind that they should be encyclopedic articles designed for consumption by people who may not (primarily) be RPGers, or even gamers for that matter.  The main concern I have is the inappropriate tags, and some of poor (i.e. wrong) choices for notability tags that were used, as well as the heavy handed approach taken and the excessive (and, at times, wrongly placed)  tags.  Nominating articles for deletion when notability is asserted in the articles isn't appropriate, but asking for sources/refs is.  Nominating Mutants and Masterminds for AfD when I removed a tag that I thought didn't apply was acting in bad faith and (in my opinion) retaliatory.  If this is going to go to RfC, the focus should be on these issues, since (as I say) some of the notability tags are appropriate.  The primary focus of our energy should be to improve all RPG-related articles, resulting in a better reference for all.  --Craw-daddy | T | 19:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

text: *I think that it's best to use this, and if he doesn't pretty much cease-and-desist immediately, we can go to RfC/U with a much stronger case. SamBC(talk) 20:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Good job on those latest edits, Craw-daddy, I knew there was something(s) wrong, and I couldn't put my finger on it. Seems much better now. SamBC(talk) 20:58, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * I changed a couple of small things.  Also, I think "to investigate your changes and ask for a sanction against your user account" should perhaps be changed to something more like "to bring your conduct up for discussion by the community".  This also doesn't directly address one of my biggest concerns -- Gavin's continual misuse of policies such as WP:OR and refusal to discuss that misuse. Pinball22 21:04, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *More good tweaks. I would agree with your further suggested change. As to the policy misuse, if you can think of a good way to say it in the same tone as the rest of the message, add it. SamBC(talk) 21:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Excellent. Thanks all, these are good changes. Web Warlock 02:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Fully Agree This is beyond silly now. I am exhausted from defending articles that don't need defending. Turlo Lomon 05:41, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Created Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Gavin.collins I could really use some help populating this form. This is a lot of work. Turlo Lomon 06:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Were you planning to wait until it's more fully populated before linking in at the RFC/U page? I ask because I can't see it linked there. We'll also need to notify Gavin.collins, to be polite, although I don't doubt that he'll see this. SamBC(talk) 08:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't realize the form was so long. It's a lot of work to fill one of these out. Yes, to your first question. Yes, I agree. And thank you sooooo much for your help. Turlo Lomon 09:14, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure that it's appropriate to list WP:RPG as one of the parties involved, but the users that you include.  --Craw-daddy | T | 10:10, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Craw-daddy: I for one never formally joined the RPG project (even if I am a de facto member). Thanks for bringing this forward, anyhow! Goochelaar 10:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed 2 references to WP:RPG as party involved. However, the third one is relevant and I kept. Thank you for the feedback. Turlo Lomon 10:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Am I on my own for this? Turlo Lomon 07:27, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I could possibly help.  I'd like to read up on the ArbCom guidelines and see what they're asking for first, etc, etc.  The earliest I could do so will be over the weekend.  --Craw-daddy | T | 08:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the earliest I could work on it too.  Well, to summarize.  It is a LONG form.  Probably going to need a test page or something somewhere.  (sub-userpage) to get it completed.  Also, just in case you are curious, we have been following Dispute Resolution guidelines exactly, step by step. This is important, as it will be brought up during the arbitration.  Turlo Lomon 09:27, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Having been involved in a (technically-still-ongoing) arbitration, I do have to say that you don't go to arbitration until the person has been told, preferably by the wider community (ie in an RFC/U), and reasonable time has passed and they're still doing whatever-it-is. Is there current evidence of Gavin still doing this? Being unrepentant isn't actually actionable unless the person is still doing whatever-it-is wrong. SamBC(talk) 16:17, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, many thanks for the explanation of policy.  :)  --Craw-daddy | T | 16:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  First Formal Request 

message: ::Created Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Gavin.collins I could really use some help populating this form. This is a lot of work. Turlo Lomon 06:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Were you planning to wait until it's more fully populated before linking in at the RFC/U page? I ask because I can't see it linked there. We'll also need to notify Gavin.collins, to be polite, although I don't doubt that he'll see this. SamBC(talk) 08:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't realize the form was so long. It's a lot of work to fill one of these out. Yes, to your first question. Yes, I agree. And thank you sooooo much for your help. Turlo Lomon 09:14, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Important!

message: *Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-10-11 Requests for comment/Gavin.collins
All people endorcing the RfC I added as participants to the mediation.  Turlo Lomon 09:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure that it's appropriate to list WP:RPG as one of the parties involved, but the users that you include.  --Craw-daddy | T | 10:10, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Craw-daddy: I for one never formally joined the RPG project (even if I am a de facto member). Thanks for bringing this forward, anyhow! Goochelaar 10:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed 2 references to WP:RPG as party involved. However, the third one is relevant and I kept. Thank you for the feedback. Turlo Lomon 10:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mediation requested

message: Mediation stated that they handle issues on content only, not behavior. I reviewed the policy, and formal mediation (the next step) also has the same guidelines. The next step we need to follow is arbitration.  I need to take care of something right now and don't have time to fill out the form. If someone could start the huge amount of work (use the RfC for links), I will sign it later tonight. Turlo Lomon 23:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Am I on my own for this? Turlo Lomon 07:27, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I could possibly help.  I'd like to read up on the ArbCom guidelines and see what they're asking for first, etc, etc.  The earliest I could do so will be over the weekend.  --Craw-daddy | T | 08:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the earliest I could work on it too.  Well, to summarize.  It is a LONG form.  Probably going to need a test page or something somewhere.  (sub-userpage) to get it completed.  Also, just in case you are curious, we have been following Dispute Resolution guidelines exactly, step by step. This is important, as it will be brought up during the arbitration.  Turlo Lomon 09:27, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Having been involved in a (technically-still-ongoing) arbitration, I do have to say that you don't go to arbitration until the person has been told, preferably by the wider community (ie in an RFC/U), and reasonable time has passed and they're still doing whatever-it-is. Is there current evidence of Gavin still doing this? Being unrepentant isn't actually actionable unless the person is still doing whatever-it-is wrong. SamBC(talk) 16:17, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, many thanks for the explanation of policy.  :)  --Craw-daddy | T | 16:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mediation close - Need arbitration

message: :: --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 12:11, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  updated --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 12:38, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Probably best to merge anything relevant to Exalted and redirect there.  --Craw-daddy | T | 15:56, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you do merges, could you please include :Template:R from merge on the redirects for classification purposes? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have redirected the page to Exalted (but not merged any content myself), and would suggest that others be suitably merged/redirected.  --Craw-daddy | T | 14:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed deletion: Moonsilver (Exalted) 

message: * 
*   Redirected to Exalted
*   Redirected to Exalted
:: --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:35, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  updated --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 12:37, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All these really-quite-valid PRODs and AFDs of the Exalted-related articles seems to make a point to me, quite successfully. Perhaps we should be more efficient in policing RPG-related articles ourselves, at least those tagged as part of the wikiproject. After all, loads of these Exalted-related articles are about non-notable background elements for which there's no reason to have a content fork and summary style in the master article, and lots have substantial redundancy between them. It's not unreasonable to think that perhaps we ought to have caught them ourselves. Should we consider this part of our mission? SamBC(talk) 10:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, yes.  This is certainly something that should be part of what this project does, i.e. be self-policing.  For example, there are loads of Greyhawk articles that all have to do with the geography of Greyhawk (lots of which have been recently tagged for notability and/or sources, and some have been prodded).  This is correct, and someone who is interested in taking on the task could write some geography type of article for Greyhawk.  Before this is done, however, it should be determined if such a resulting page would be notable and properly referenced.  Otherwise these pages should be deleted.  The same can be said of many of the Exalted articles such as the ones above.  Relevant material (if any) could be merged into the main article, and then these could be redirected there.  But this should be done carefully, again to maintain proper sources and make sure the resulting new article doesn't suffer from "bloat".  --Craw-daddy | T | 13:41, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Such stuff should really be on a to-do list, and as long as the list is being dealt with, the fact that it's going to be dealt with should preven deletions to give time to finish dealing with them. I have no idea how much time I'm going to have in coming months, as I'm just starting a Masters' that is taught in a rather on-and-off way, but I'd certainly be interested in taking on such work. However, some of the material to be checked and potentially merged would really need someone who knows the relevant setting (or, I guess, system in some cases). SamBC(talk) 17:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Exalted-related proposed deletions: Yurgen Kaneko, Dace, Jade 

message: Greetings!  I was hoping that one of you out there with access to the Pyramid archives could fill in the missing details (like reviewer's name, issue number) for the Pyramid review of the Abomination Codex supplement for CJ Carella's WitchCraft?  I've filled in the details that I can glean from the first part of the review, but just wanted to get the full citation details.  Of course if you find any other appropriate place to add a reference to other material in the article, please feel free to do so.  Many thanks in advance!  --Craw-daddy | T | 22:15, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Added author and publication date. -- JHunterJ 01:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that Hunter!  --Craw-daddy | T | 09:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Help with ''[[Pyramid (magazine)|Pyramid]] review''??  (Subscription access)

message: Unless there are strong objections, I plan to start redirecting the great majority of articles in :Category:Greyhawk locations to the page Greyhawk.  I'll use the template :Template:R from merge as suggested above.  A few of them like Temple of Elemental Evil should not be merged (but, of course will likely need some more sources).  --Craw-daddy | T | 06:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I created a link in the header to the Greyhawk page. I believe this would be more appropriate to discuss there. Turlo Lomon 06:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Greyhawk#Greyhawk locations (redirects)|Greyhawk locations (redirects)]]

message: :: --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  updated --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 12:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I am conducting notifications against 100 or more WikiProjects.  No, I have not tried looking for information - the reason why I bring to this to the attention of this WikiProject is so that knowledgeable people know of the pending deletion.  See User:Ceyockey/Notifying WikiProjects of Deletion Proposals for the scope of the activity that I'm engaged in. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:19, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed deletion: Dreamation 

message: Any reason why the "system" parameter isn't showing up in the InfoBoxes?  Has the recent tweaking of this template caused this problem?  I'm not so familiar with the ins and outs of how these templates work, so don't want to start mucking around with them myself.  Cheers  --Craw-daddy | T | 10:49, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Where is the template/what's it called? I'm reasonably good at understanding these things, and happy to take a look. SamBC(talk) 10:57, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See Template:Infobox RPG.  The "system" parameter isn't showing up, even when it's defined (say, for example in the Infoboxes for Mutants and Masterminds or GURPS). And thanks in advance!  :)  --Craw-daddy | T | 11:09, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: voila, fixed. The if-clause for that parameter was testing a parameter called "issystem" (which isn't documented) to decide whether to include the parameter "system". SamBC(talk) 11:24, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks!  You da man!  (assuming, that you're not female, but you get the idea  ;)  --Craw-daddy | T | 11:43, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox RPG problem?

message: I've put up a first draft of a notability proposal for RPGs at Wikipedia:WikiProject Role-playing games/Notability.  I'm not sure where to take it next; the options as I see it are:
* Put it up on the Village Pump in the hopes of getting it made official policy.
* Link to it from the project page and explain that that it's how the project interprets WP:N as it applies to RPGs
* Neither of the above - we do without.
I think that recent events have shown us we need *something* to stop deletionist editors from deleting all the RPG articles out of hand; but I don't know whether the community thinks a full-blown official policy is what's needed.  So - please discuss the actual rules on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Role-playing games/Notability their talk page, and discuss what to do with them here.  Percy Snoodle 15:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notability proposal 

message: :: --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 12:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  updated --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 13:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed deletion: Embrace (World of Darkness) 

message: Thought you should know. --Kizor 15:34, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I've added in the relevant talk page referenced that can possible be used to show notibliy Roguebfl 11:33, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Krynn]] on AfD, along with various other D&D settings 

message: Hey guys, I wanted the RPG Project to know that I've started copying articles that I see in AFD to Fancruft.net The people hosting it are letting me sysop and there are no weird notability  or in-universe rules. If any Rpg project people want to help me out by porting templates and cleaning up copied articles (templates, etc) I'd really appreciate the assistance.--Torchwood Who? 03:07, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: AFDs, Transwiki, etc

message: This section
==References==
* A section for references at the bottom, in the following format:
      Books, modules, supplements, boxed sets, etc
          Author or editor. Title of product (publisher, date). Available online:URL, if applicable
should perhaps be clarified so we don't end up with listcruft like in  --NeilN 15:46, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It should probably be replaced entirely - the new Wikipedia:Footnotes system kind of makes it obsolete.  Percy Snoodle 16:53, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, done - what do people think of the new advice? Percy Snoodle 12:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Taking a break from my break. IT looks good, now we need to go out there and hit the books for sources to keep the deletionists at bay. Web Warlock 16:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: Gavin's just tagged Dawn Caste, Eclipse Caste, Night Caste, Twilight Caste and Zenith Caste as non-notable D&D in-universe cruft.  While the "D&D" part shows his typical accuracy, I don't really disagree with the non-notable part. I think the best thing would be to redirect these articles to Exalted (role-playing game).  Would that meet with objections? Percy Snoodle 12:20, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've redirected all of these to Exalted.  Interested parties can merge any relevant information using the histories.  --Craw-daddy | T | 19:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exalted castes - redirect? 

message: # I have added Faith Hunter to the category:RPG writers.  I don't know, however, the difference between that and RPG designers.  Should she be in the other or both, or is there currently not enough infomation to know?
# Should the talk pages of writers/designers get the RPG project banner?
Thanks for any help! Aleta 20:43, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A couple of questions

message: I'm in dire need of help fixing this article so it can be returned to wikipedia. I've exhausted all attempts to meet standards. :( The article has been userfied and moved to [Amazon Star Trek PbBB Role Playing Game]
I've been told time and time again to find sources and I've listed all undisputable websites and search engines associated with this genre. What else can I do?!!! hehe. -Zodiac01 00:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Star Trek (PbBB Role Playing Game)

message: I've put it up for deletion, but no-one except me and the article's main editor have contributed.  Please help us reach a consensus.  Percy Snoodle (talk) 13:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Golconda (World of Darkness) 

message: I've posted this on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Greyhawk‎  talk page, but thought that I would include it here too. Many D&D game modules have been marked with notability tags.  I thought that I should mention that I have recently (entirely by accident) stumbled across some of the legal document regarding a 1992 lawsuit between TSR and Game Designers' Worskhop regarding their Dangerous Journeys role-playing game.  Some of this information can be found here, and you can also check the directory index for some other links.  Seems like this can be used to help argue for notability of these game modules/other books as they were specifically named in this lawsuit as sources for the "derivative" works of Dangerous Journeys.  Cheers.  --Craw-daddy | T | 20:24, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great find! Rray (talk) 20:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Notability of D&D adventure modules/books

message: Divinus has started an RFC asking for feedback about whether product directories belong in RPG articles.  Please contribute at Talk:Over the Edge (game). Percy Snoodle (talk) 09:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If that page were moved to a gaming wiki, we could place it in Deadlands' external links.  Percy Snoodle (talk) 13:31, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Product catalogues 

message: Hear Ye! Hear Ye!  Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls, and All Ye blessed Folk in between, gather round and I shalt telleth Ye a Tale of a Wiki that well comes All Manner of Articles relating to Fiction.  What is This wonderful Place of Fantasy, You ask?  It is the Annex, Haven to All fiction-related Refugee Articles from Wikipedia.
Before nominating or proposing a fiction-related Article for Deletion, It is My sincerest Hope that Ye import It to the Annex.  Why do This, You wonder?  Individuals have dedicated an enormous Amount of Time to writing These Articles, and ’twould be a Pity for the Information to Vanish unto the Oblivion where only Administrators could see Them.
Here is a Step-by-Step Process of how to Bringeth Articles into the Annex:
#Ye shall need at least three Browser Tabs or Windows open.  For the first Tab or Window, go to Special:Export.  For the second, go here.  (If Ye have not an Account at Wikia, then create One.)  Do whatever Ye want for the third.
#Next, open the Program known as Notepad.  If Ye haveth It not, then open WordPad.  Go to “Save as,” and for “Encoding,” select either “Unicode” or “UTF-8.”  For “Save as type,” select “All Files.”  For “File name,” input “export.xml” and save It.  Leave the Window open.
#Next, go to the Special:Export Window at Wikipedia, and un-check the two small Boxes near the “Export” Button.  Input the Name of the Wikipedia Article which Ye wish to import to the Annex into the large Field, and click “Export.”
#Right-click on the Page full of Code which appears, and clicketh on “View Source” or “View Page Source” or any Option with similar Wording.  A new Notepad Window called “index[1]” or Something similar should appear.  Press Ctrl+A to highlight All the Text then Ctrl+C to copy It.  Close yon “index[1]” Window, and go to the Notepad “export.xml” Window.  Press Ctrl+V to pasteth the Text There, and then save It by pressing Ctrl+S.
#Now go to the Special:Import Window over at the Annex.  Clicketh on “Browse…” and select the “export.xml” File.  At last, click on “Upload file,” and Thou art done, My Friend!  However, if It says 100 Revisions be imported, Ye be not quite finished just yet.  Go back to Wikipedia’s Special:Export, and leave only the “Include only the current revision, not the full history” Box checked.  Export That, copy the Page Source, close the “index[1]” Window, and go to the “export.xml” Window.  Press Ctrl+A to highlight the Code all ready There, press “backspace” to erase It, and press Ctrl+V to pasteth the new Code There.  Press Ctrl+S to save It, then upload once more to the Annex.  Paste  at the Bottom of the imported Article at the Annex, and Ye art now finally done!  Keepeth the “export.xml” File for future Use.
Thank Ye for using the Annex, My Friends — the Annex Hath Spoken 01:35, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ye Art Cordially Invited to the Annex 

message: I ask because I've been gone from Wikipedia and the Wiki RPG Project for over a year. I left because I got tired of every article that I wrote or worked on getting deleted by a certain someone who just recently had a second RFC filed against them. So my question is: can I come back and start working on articles again? Or will the griefing rules-lawyers make my time here at Wikipedia a nightmarish exercise of frustration yet again? Seanr451 (talk) 13:19, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ok, so where are we now? 

message: Why does Wikipedia hyphenate role-playing game?  The prevalent usage is for one word, i.e. "roleplaying game" (regardless of what spell-checkers think).
* RPGnet refers to itself as "an independent web site about tabletop roleplaying games."
* Wizards of the Coast says that it publishes "roleplaying games."
* Chaosium publishes its "Basic Roleplaying System."
* Paizo also used "roleplaying."
AusJeb (talk) 16:56, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Hyphenation

message: I attempted to add two links on the Tunnels and Trolls page.
One was to Outlaw press, the principle producer of fan based Tunnels and Trolls material - licenced by Flying Buffalo who are linked - including the print magazine Hobbit Hole. The other was to Vins Trollbridge, the main free forum for discussing Tunnels and Trolls issues.
These were deleted as inappropriate .
As these both relate to Tunnels and Trolls as it is currently played, and i have no vested interest in either (though i do contribute to the forum) i am unclear as to what i did wrong. Perhaps this could be clarified? or i could be allowed to post these links
Thank you
Karlvontyr  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karlvontyr (talk • contribs) 15:09, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not the editor who removed the links, but my take on it is the removed links serve to promote the two sites in question rather than to support the content of the article.  Links to specific forum postings would be approriate as references for facts in the article.  The fan-material publisher's page might be appropriate as a reference in a section discussing the state of the game, but I doubt it; an independent source would be more appropriate.  Percy Snoodle (talk) 18:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:EL. Rray (talk) 21:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tunnels and Trolls links 

message: There is an AfD outstanding for List of all d20 sourcebooks, a new article by a newbie user.  It appears that the reason it is up is because its creator, being a newbie, has made a mess of formatting and posted a messy textlist of entries.  He nevertheless looks like a hard-working contributor.  I am requesting that someone in the project talk to this contributor, show him the ropes and help straighten out the mess.  Freederick (talk) 23:38, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sent him/her a nice welcome note and copied their list over to their own talk page. Personally I am not sure of the value of this list. Web Warlock (talk) 16:36, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for assistance 

message: The following have been tagged for notability issues or needing thrid-party refs.
Please also see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Role-playing games/Notability
*9th Level Games (producers of Kobolds Ate My Baby!)
*Aces & Eights
*Caballeros de Montevideo
*Cadwallon (role-playing game)
*Chill (role-playing game)
*Coda System
*Death Knight - Currently up on AfD. Could use some help wordsmithing and editing the article some. Web Warlock (talk) 03:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Notabilty Issues

message: Would the article Fantasy wargame (or similar articles) fall within the scope of this project?  Such games seem to be the predecessors of the modern role-playing game, and might be informative as historical background. B7T (talk) 12:49, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd argue against tagging it as part of the project, but it's definitely worth keeping an eye on.  I'll see if I can merge some of the  text from history of role-playing games in. Percy Snoodle (talk) 13:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Fantasy wargame]] 

message: In order to source some of the adaptations of the Hobbit, I'm trying to find reviews or magazine articles for several Iron Crown Enterprises  boardgames namely the Battle of Five Armies, The Lonely Mountain and The Hobbit Adventure game. I've looked through indexes of Dragon (magazine) and White Dwarf (magazine) but can't find any reviews or references to them (other than the odd advert). I know they are boardgames, not RPG's, but ICE was primarily a rpg publisher, and I was wondering whether anyone could help track down reliable sources and possibly add them to the article, or point me in the right direction. Thanks. --Davémon (talk) 18:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am going through the White Dwarf mags now.  As I find some I'll post them.  Would you like me to copy them to your user page as well? Web Warlock (talk) 19:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  That would be great ~ thanks Web Warlock. --Davémon (talk) 14:14, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem, but it is going to take me a bit. Web Warlock (talk) 14:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

text:  I found some very brief references in White Dwarf Magazines "News" pages, but alas no reviews. Anyone suggest anywhere else to look? --Davémon (talk) 17:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  ICE, Merp and The Hobbit Adaptations 

message: I think the article Generic role-playing game system is very misleading. None of the game systems discussed are actually generic, but are actually Proprietary. This article needs to be rewritten so that it can be understood that so called "Generic" role playing systems can only be used in new games under licence from the copywrite holders. --Gavin Collins (talk) 11:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The term isn't misleading. The article does not need to be rewritten. Rray (talk) 13:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As soon as Rray says "there is no problem", you can guarantee there is a problem. I was not sure until now, but now I know will put this issue forward for RFC to bring in third party opinion could be benefical. --Gavin Collins (talk) 08:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice assumption of good faith, there...  The term "generic" is the one that is used in the industry itself.   --Craw-daddy | T | 08:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *All the more reason to ask leading questions, I would have thought. Now alarm bells are ringing. I have requested comments at Talk:Generic role-playing game system.--Gavin Collins (talk) 09:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *Asking questions is appropriate. Refusing to understand the answers just wastes other editors' time. Rray (talk) 13:13, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *It's not so much refusing to understand, as it is intentional misinterpretations, word-twisting, and not really caring what the answers would be in the first place. BOZ (talk) 13:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Generic only seems to be misleading to you Gavin. I suggest you do some research and come back only when you have learned something. Web Warlock (talk) 13:22, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Taking a quick look at Generic we have:
 generic mood, which is not the opposite of proprietary.
 generic antecedents, which is not the opposite of proprietary.
 Generic role-playing game system, which is not the opposite of proprietary.
 Generic drug, which is not the opposite of proprietary.
 Generic function, which is not the opposite of proprietary.
 Generic programming, which is not the opposite of proprietary.
 GENERIC, which is not the opposite of proprietary.
 Generic filter, which is not the opposite of proprietary.
 Generic point, which is not the opposite of proprietary.
 Generic property, which is not the opposite of proprietary.
 Generic brand, which is not the opposite of proprietary.
 GENERIC formalism, which is not the opposite of proprietary.
 Genericized trademark, which is not the opposite of proprietary.
 Porter generic strategies, which is not the opposite of proprietary.
 Semi-generic, which is not the opposite of proprietary.
 Generic Flipper, which is not the opposite of proprietary.
I also note Gavin hasn't tagged any of those other articles as disputed even though they don't match his definition of generic, either. Edward321 (talk) 04:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Generic role-playing game system

message: In conversation with Gavin, it was noted that there isn't a cleanup template for articles with excessive detailing of gameplay.  I've created one at  - there's no documentation for it yet, but other than that, what are people's thoughts?  Percy Snoodle (talk) 15:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In general I think it is a good idea. We do not want excessive amounts of what could become meta-game trivia.  But we should also consider when dealing with some games what makes them unique and/or notable and some of that could be "game guide" material. For example the sanity rules of Call of Cthulhu, the Damage system of Mutants & Masterminds or the drama point system of Cinematic Unisystem. In my mind the worse offenders of these might be the Star Fleet Battles games, but that is only my off the cuff guess. Web Warlock (talk) 15:16, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

text: It looks good to me too. It's quite similar in function to the video game template  – perhaps WP:RPG could work on a content guidelines page in the vein of WP:VG/GL, and link to it from the gameplay template? --Muchness (talk) 15:31, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't get to the point. Excessive gameplay is very rarely an issue. In fact, I don't think I have ever reviewed a video games article with that comment. The real issue is lists: lists of spells, items, weapons, minor characters, etc. Putting these under the header of "gameplay" is true but detracts from the real point. User:Krator (t c) 23:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

text: The idea to move the current one to a video game specific one sounds like a good idea. Though I have to agree with Krator about what the most common issue is. I've had more lengthy conflicts with other editors about including character and item lists in articles than I have about excessive gameplay descriptions. Most times its excessive descriptions about the contents of the game, and not how to play the game itself. (Guyinblack25 talk 05:42, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excess gameplay description template 

message: Supernatural Role Playing Game fails WP:Crystal and is a possible candidate for AfD. Is there another article this could be merged into before this happens? --Gavin Collins (talk) 13:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Supernatural (TV series), perhaps?  A small section there, and a redirect to it, is probably appropriate. Percy Snoodle (talk) 13:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: At least until the game is released.  Last I heard now was April 2008. Web Warlock (talk) 16:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Merging with Supernatural (TV series) is a good idea. Rray (talk) 17:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Supernatural Role Playing Game

message: to prevent confusion i think it shoudl be decided how much content of a specific RPG needs to be explained that may differe it from others that could be thought of as howto's or isntructions to play. while some may see a small amount of game mechanics to mean the article instructs one how to play a game via its article it only tries to seperate itself and show its own ways of implementing things during the game. a total lack of game mechanic explanation would leave people to probably believe the article is about a work of fiction rather than a game, and lack of enough "fluff" may lead people to think its a how-to article. so where do these two world meet in creating good RPG articles? ideas? is there already a standard for this? shadzar|Talk|contribs 01:19, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's tricky - the right answer depends on the topic.  The only good measure I know about of how much to write is how much has been written elsewhere - if there are many secondary sources describing a game's mechanics or setting in detail, then more detail is justified on those matters than if there are few, and if there aren't any then a single descriptive sentence in the lead sentence is probably right. Percy Snoodle (talk) 14:41, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  howto, fiction and RPG articles. 

message: Hello,
there are currently 40 articles in the scope of this project which are tagged with notability concerns. I have listed them here. (Note: this listing is based on a database snapshot of  and may be slightly outdated.)
I would encourage members of this project to have a look at these articles, and see whether independent sources can be added, whether the articles can be merged into an article of larger scope, or possibly be deleted. Any help in cleaning up this backlog is appreciated. For further information, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Notability. 
If you have any questions, please leave a message on the Notability project page or on my personal talk page. (I'm not watching this page however.) Thanks! --B. Wolterding (talk) 15:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't help that contributors associated with communities at The Forge, Story Games and I Would Knife Fight a Man, including ones listed as members of this project, add articles of dubious relevancy for promotional purposes, such as for amateur artists of no note outside of that scene, and games that may have featured less than 1000 copies sold or are otherwise of little importance to a resource as broad as Wikipedia. Games like Dogs in the Vineyard are notable, certainly, but the project is bloated because it has been consciously abused for the aggrandizement of one scene.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.235.139.169 (talk) 00:18, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: RPGproject: Articles of unclear notability

message: Contributions are sought at WT:FICT#Guidelines and consensus, to try to determine whether the inclusion of spinout articles without real-world coverage has consensus support.  Percy Snoodle (talk) 10:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consensus sought for spinout articles 

message: Hey there. Just found it strange that the virtual creator of role playing genre is assessed as high importance instead of top. Usually, book WikiProjects assess creators at the top importance (for example, J. K. Rowling is top importance for Harry Potter WikiProject, J. R. R. Tolkien is top importance for WikiProject Middle-Earth, Margaret Weis is top importance for WikiProject Dragonlance, etc. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 21:01, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds reasonable and uncontroversial to me.  I've made the change. If anyone disagrees, feel free to revert and discuss here. Jclemens (talk) 06:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

text: "Top" is by no means an exclusive club. "Subject is a must-have for a good encyclopedia" - I'd say that describes the pair of them. --Rindis (talk) 15:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Gary Gygax]] reassessment 

message: Having mentioned this to a few other people I thought I'd share it here.  Check out the book Hobby Games: The 100 Best, edited by James Lowder (2007 by Green Ronin Publishing).  This is a collection of essays done by game designers about their favorite games (they couldn't choose their own, or one in which they had a financial interest).  It's the closest thing to an "academic reference" that you might find for many modern games (i.e. ones published in the last 25-30 years or so).  The coverage is more geared towards board/card/war games, but there are some articles on RPGs.  Now go forth and improve more articles.  :)  --Craw-daddy | T | 22:26, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am off to go get this now. Web Warlock (talk) 18:01, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey Web Warlock.  I'd suggest checking this book out in your local bookstore or library first before purchasing it.  While it's interesting, frankly it's not the best read in the world (and I don't really mean to insult the contributors to it, at least not much).  But as I said, it does give a reference for various board/card/role-playing games.  I've used it on Ogre (now GA), My Life with Master (GA-nominated), and The Extraordinary Adventures of Baron Münchhausen so far.  (On a side note, I find it amusing that the only citations in the Baron Münchhausen article are the ones I've added about the RPG.)  Am working (slowly) on Once Upon a Time and have a few plans for other games such as Twilight Struggle.  --Craw-daddy | T | 23:25, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup! I got it from my library, it was in their new book section.  Thanks. Web Warlock (talk) 23:28, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good!  Enjoy!  Some articles are definitely better than others (but haven't read them all).  On a side note, if you have happened to run across any magazine reviews of My Life with Master, I'd appreciate any help on that article.  I think that I've generally tapped out the online references (but of course could have missed some, my "Google Fu" is sometimes lacking). --Craw-daddy | T | 23:48, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Reference for some RPGs

message: Hey all, I need some help improving the True20 article.  It is up for AFD.
True20 and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/True20.  Check those magazines! Thanks. Web Warlock (talk) 17:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work on locating the references that you inserted.  I'm still trying (somewhat half-heartedly) to locate older out-of-print magazines (not for this RPG, but just in general).  This is both difficult and potentially costly.  I would love to find copies of the old White Wolf magazine, but I think this could be quite costly, unless I run across some granny who's chucking away her (grand)son's old magazines or something like that.  :)  --Craw-daddy | T | 23:47, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: One of the biggest problems seems to be that most role-playing magazines for the last 15 years or so are in-house and only talk about their company's products, therefore inapplicable to demonstrating notability… SamBC(talk) 10:23, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  True20 

message: Could someone have a look at the articles in this category?  Some deal with topics that could be notable, but others not.  I have prodded a lot of articles here (although it does against my generally inclusionist attitude).  Some of the prods have been removed, and, of course by stating this here. it's quite possible that all of the prods will be removed.  However, most all of these articles suffer from the problems of having all plot, no notability, no real world context, and so forth.  (Sorry if I'm sounding like a broken record that has been played much lately.)  It's likely that a few, much better, articles could be written using some of this material, but a lot of the plot detail needs to be removed and lots of sources found.  I thought that someone more familiar with this system than I am would be much better suited to look into this.  Thanks.  --Craw-daddy | T | 00:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect mass-merging might be a good idea, but that's not something you'd want to do boldly, I suspect. SamBC(talk) 10:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I whole-heartedly agree that mass merging would likely be best, as I suggested above.  As you say, though, I fully expect much resistance in doing so.  --Craw-daddy | T | 13:11, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we ought to come up with an initial list of things to merge, and articles to merge them to (preferably already in existence); then we template and list at WP:PM in the hope of broader participation to counter the partisan outcry. SamBC(talk) 13:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this will be the best way to go, especially given what's already happening at this debate?  I should have considered doing something like this before I put that for AfD.  I really am an inclusionist, but I do question some articles such as these.  I mean there are 83 articles in this category, when there probably should be about 5-10 at most, focusing on the games and any significant (i.e. notable) other aspects.  --Craw-daddy | T | 14:00, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed; I'd say I veer strongly towards inclusionism when considering content, but not when considering articles. SamBC(talk) 14:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll have a look at these as well.  While there is a lot that is very notable about V:tm and WoD (and it may have been written about more than any other game besides D&D) some of the articles are very merger worthy. Web Warlock (talk) 12:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I'm not trying to delete the main articles about the game (they are quite notable), but as I said above, the 83 articles in this category should be reduced and at the moment a significant number are all about game content with zero references (to non-game books or otherwise).  I'm not trying to antagonize people about this, and want to do this constructively.  --Craw-daddy | T | 12:32, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think your intentions have been clear and well reasoned. We could do for some triming here on the WoD articles. Some of the books are notable beyond the core for various reasons, mostly due to their adoption by the "real vampire" goth subculture as their own "rules".  Web Warlock (talk) 14:17, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Seems like the consensus would be against the keeping of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Inconnu (World of Darkness) and for the keeping of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sabbat (World of Darkness). There might become a need for an article Sects in Vampire: The Masquerade, combining the information concerning the less significant sects and describing shortly the more significant sects. --Jhattara (Talk · Contrib) 07:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, but I'm too busy to do it myself, especially for something I'd actually have to read up on first, hating WoD with a vengeance. That doesn't affect my opinion of the articles or notability in any way, I know a lot of people love it and it is notable, even some seemingly-minor details are, but I personally dislike the setting and the system. Off-topic, I know, but I slept badly. SamBC(talk) 10:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: @Jhattara... That's exactly one of the things that I would propose (although like SamBC, maybe I'm not qualified to do the actual writing as I'm not familiar with the WoD background).  As I said above, at the moment, almost none of these articles have any references beyond source material, making no claim to notability, etc, etc.  Combining many of these articles into one would lead to a more focused article.  Sources would still be needed for the notability, but I would think it's easier to make a case for notability for Vampires in the World of Darkness or Sects in Vampire: The Masquerade (or some such article) than it is for the many individual sects/clans.  This is why I brought this up here for input.  --Craw-daddy | T | 10:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I can do some of the work at some point, but deleting the articles at this point wouldn't IMHO be a good solution. Maybe we should in here make a short outline of which sect, clan and other pages should be kept as independent and which should be merged into composite articles. --Jhattara (Talk · Contrib) 11:42, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[:Category:Vampire: The Masquerade]]

message: Some of the articles were already deleted. And some of those should be restored. Others could be merged under a single article. I think that at least the major clans (7 original Camarilla, 4 big independents, 2 sabbat founders, 2 or 3 WDA major clans that became practically extinct by VTM) should have their own articles. --Jhattara (Talk · Contrib) 08:03, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal 

message: I've edited the article for Hunter: the Vigil.  I've added the Infobox, and will add a lowres thumbnail of the cover once that image is released.  I have also added references, and more known, verifiable information.  Since this is the first major revision I've made, before all I have done is reverse vandalism and correct spelling, could someone take a look and see if it's good?
There's not enough information for the game yet, as it's unreleased, so that article will remain a stub for some time, I think.Pdboddy (talk) 19:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hunter: the Vigil 

message: I would like to (informally) invite comments, suggestions, changes on the proposed guidelines at Wikipedia:Notability (toys and games).  I thought that I would mention this here as it's particularly relevant to this WikiProject.  --Craw-daddy | T | 21:58, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment on proposed notability guidelines 

message: As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level.  The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
*The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.  
*The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.  
*A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.  
Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at :Category:C-Class_articles.  If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages.  The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles. 
Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme.  This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year.  Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot (Disable) 21:21, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme

message: I am trying to improve the Dralasite article so it isn't in danger of deletion.  Having been introduced in 1982 and having been featured multiple RPG's since then, I know they are notable but aren't sure I can prove this to the public at large.  Help from experienced and policy-savvy editors would be welcome. - House of Scandal (talk) 17:26, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There really doesn't appear to be much in the way of independent reliable sources to confirm the notability of this article.—RJH (talk) 18:36, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As the person who prodded the article, I would agree with this assessment.  As much as I might like these kinds of articles, WP's notability standards suggest it's not appropriate here.  All of the sources seem to be primary sources (e.g. the role-playing rules, or derivatives, in which the race is used) with nothing to suggest this fictional race is notable in a wider context (notable in the WP sense of the word, of course).  --Craw-daddy | T | 20:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Dralasite

message: Currently, 734 articles are assigned to this project, of which 220, or 30.0%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of .) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. More than 150 projects and work groups have already subscribed, and adding a subscription for yours is easy - just place a template on your project page. 
If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page; I'm not watching this page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 16:38, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles flagged for cleanup 

message: Dear WikiProject Role-playing games participants...WikiProject Media franchises needs some help from other projects which are similar. Media franchises' scope deals primarily with the coordination of articles within the hundreds if not thousands of media franchises which exist. Sometimes a franchise might just need color coordination of the various templates used; it could mean creating an article for the franchise as a jump off point for the children of it; or the creation of a new templating system for media franchise articles. The project primarily focuses on multimedia franchises. It would be great if some of this project's participants would come over and help the project get back on solid footing. Also, if you know of similar projects which have not received this, let  know. Please come and take a look at the project and see if you wish to lend a hand. You can sign up here if you wish. Thank you. LA  @ 21:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject Media franchises 

message: The article Malcontent Uprisings, covering an era in the RPG books on Robotech, has been prodded. 70.51.11.210 (talk) 06:12, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Robotech 

message: Dear WikiProject Role-playing games participants...WikiProject Media franchises is currently discussing a naming convention for franchise articles. Since this may affect one or more articles in your project, we would like to get the opinions of all related projects before implimenting any sweeping changes. Please come and help us decide. Thanks! LA (T) @ 22:10, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Franchise naming convention discussion at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Media franchises|WikiProject Media franchises]]

message: I'm not too sure how would one go about this (adding a page to this project), but d20 System isn't marked as a part of this project. I don't think I should explain why it should be. Korodzik (talk) 18:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  d20 system 

message: I just finished the cleanup on the article Bunnies & Burrows, and would like a few eyes to take a peek at it. I would like to see this article eventually become a featured article, but one step at a time. The question is, has it passed the "Start" class of articles? Turlo Lomon (talk) 13:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good to me.  Good job. Percy Snoodle (talk) 14:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Heh, Percy beat me to it by a whisker! Or was that a hare?  At any rate, Good job, but you may have trouble making this into FA class due to the paucity of available RS material. GA, however, should be attainable. Jclemens (talk) 14:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Goonies never say die!  It is a start. There is still a lot of information out there, and I have managed to get a copy of the original game as well as the GURPS version. I am quite pleased that when I first came across the article, it was a stub up for AfD and it has come a long way since then. Turlo Lomon (talk) 15:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, nice job there.  It's pretty close to GA standards I think.  There's the (somewhat) POV-ish half statement "While it has been far surpassed by advances in role-playing game mechanics in the past thirty years" that might deserve some reference, but most everything else looks good.  (I mention this as the quoted part of the statement could be interpreted as a conclusion that one of the article editors has made.  In other words, has this remark, or similar ones, appeared in some of the references?)  I would suggest trying for GA, especially if that statement can be suitably documented (or altered in some way/removed).  Speaking from experience, there is some satisfaction in nominating an article you have worked on and acheiving GA status for it.  (Besides, this project can use more GAs.)  --Craw-daddy | T | 15:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S.  The GURPS book cover image can use a more detailed fair-use rationale (which will certainly be necessary for GA status).  More is needed than just the boilerplate template.  Something along the lines found on the other (original version) cover or you can use the  template, supplying as much information as you possibly can for that image.  --Craw-daddy | T | 15:48, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I took care of the GURPS cover as you suggested Craw-daddy. I can't take credit for what was said, as it was a simple copy/paste, but it saved the first one from deletion and is 100% true.  I am going to do some more work on the article tonight. Turlo Lomon (talk) 00:42, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bunnies & Burrows

message: Bunnies & Burrows is now officially a good article. I have submitted it for peer review on the path to FA status. And to think... just one year ago, it was about to be deleted. Thanks to gang for helping get it cleaned up and put together. Turlo Lomon (talk) 05:38, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Status & More!

message: I have created a page for Agone, which is a French RPG that was translated to English in 2001.  If anyone else has played this game or has experience with it, I would love some help in making it a nice page. --Brandon (talk) 22:57, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Agone RPG

message: Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.
We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations. 
A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible. 
We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 23:32, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *Bunnies & Burrows, currently a GA candidate but of very historical importance to the RPG community. Turlo Lomon (talk) 19:34, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: See if you can get that added using their Nomination procedure.  :) BOZ (talk) 14:27, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

text: If you feel those articles are up to quality, then nominate them! :) BOZ (talk) 18:20, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hurry up! If you know of any more high quality high importance RPG articles that you really think should get in, now is the time to stop procrastinating! :) Make sure you nominate them soon, because I think the deadline is tomorrow! BOZ (talk) 18:04, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If there is a preferred version of an article that needs to be selected over the current version, please post it here. :) BOZ (talk) 12:43, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Role-playing game 

message: I am shocked... a few of us earned a bounty apparently: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Furry‎. (I am donating mine to charity). Turlo Lomon (talk) 14:43, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: WOW

message: Great news! :) Gary Gygax is now a Good Article. I have now nominated Wizards of the Coast. BOZ (talk) 02:32, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Wizards of the Coast is now up for GA review. If you're interested in helping, come join me. :) BOZ (talk) 21:40, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is now officially a GA. :) BOZ (talk) 00:26, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gary Gygax 

message: Would it make sense to have a general infobox for fictional locations? It could include a heirarchy of location information (world, continent, nation, division, &c.), the originating author(s), the current owner, first publication date, an image box and caption, setting genre, major biomes, dominant powers, notes, and so forth. Is anybody interested in setting one up? I think it would be useful for both role-playing campaign settings and literary settings.—RJH (talk) 18:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure - not sure how to start it though. BOZ (talk) 19:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well it's more or less documented on Wikipedia:Manual of Style (infoboxes) and Template:Infobox. There's a bunch of examples under here: :Category:Infobox_templates. Thanks.—RJH (talk) 22:46, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Any luck?—RJH (talk) 23:53, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox fictional location 

message: The role-playing game article was recently completely rewritten. I've added my thoughts at Talk:Role-playing game#Rewrite; in short, I think the rewrite should be reverted per WP:BRD. I'm posting a notice here since it's this WikiProject's primary article. Input from interested parties is welcome at Talk:Role-playing game. --Muchness (talk) 05:46, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: RPG article rewrite

message: Hello. A request for comment on user conduct has recently been filed regarding Gavin.collins. Since this project has been involved in the dispute regarding him, I thought that you would want to know. You can see the RFC/U here. Thank you. -Drilnoth (talk) 22:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gavin.collins RFC/U 

message: Hello, I stumbled upon the Games Workshop article today and noticed that some information is badly outdated, particularly the In development section. I don't know anything about the topic, so I thought I'd let the "experts" know. Thanks! momoricks (make my day) 07:06, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Games Workshop article update request 

message: A new article was recently created to split some information form a D&D article. This article has had the RPG project added to it, and this project is now being informed about the new article so that any wishing to take part in it can easily find it, discuss things it needs to include, and to make changes to reflect the article within the scope of both the general RPG project as the variant games are more likely to full under it more so than just D&D and the D&D project. Thanks for your help in making this new article factual and informative to all wikipedia readers. If there are any other projects that this article falls under, please inform them as well and add their banners to the shell, so that we can all work together to get these D&D type or inspired games included for the best possible article on the subject. shadzar-talk 01:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Variant Dungeons & Dragons games]] 

message: Could someone here reassess the quality of Poptropica? I feel that it is now beyond start class. The notability may also be worth reviewing. Vltava 68 09:00, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reassessment of article quality 

message: I've been looking into cleaning up some of the articles defining terms like metagaming and godmoding, but I'm having trouble finding anything resembling a verifiable source. Any help here would be appreciated. -- Kyle Maxwell (talk) 05:25, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Term definitions