Talk:Mamre

message: has some beautiful descriptions of the site, and we should cull a florilegium of them for a section. Nishidani (talk) 20:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  19th cent travel lit 

message: Indeed, this text is phrased more in line with Greek idiom, and does not use that expression:-
CHAP. IV.
WHAT CONSTANTINE THE GREAT EFFECTED ABOUT THE OAK IN MAMRE; HE ALSO BUILT A
TEMPLE.
I CONSIDER it necessary to detail the proceedings of Constantine in relation to what is called the oak of Mature. This place is now called Terebinthus, and is about fifteen stadia distant from Hebron, which lies to the south, but is two hundred and fifty stadia distant from Jerusalem. It is recorded that here the Son of God appeared to Abraham, with two angels, who had been sent against Sodom, and foretold the birth of his son. Here the inhabitants of the country and of the regions round Palestine the Phoenicians, and the Arabians, assemble
annually during the summer season to keep a brilliant feast; and many others, both buyers and sellers, resort thither on account of the fair. Indeed, this feast is diligently frequented by all nations: by the Jews, because they boast of their descent from the patriarch Abraham; by the Pagans, because angels there appeared to men; and by Christians, because He who for the salvation of mankind was born of a virgin, afterwards manifested Himself there to a godly man. This place was moreover honored fit-tingly with religious exercises. Here some prayed to
the God of all; some called upon the angels, poured out wine, burnt incense, or offered an ox, or he-goat, a sheep, or a cock. Each one made some beautiful product of his labor, and after carefully husbanding it through the entire year, he offered it according to promise as provision for that feast, both for himself and his dependents. And either from honor to the place, or from fear of Divine wrath, they all abstained from coming near their wives, although during the feast these were more than ordinarily studious of their beauty and adornment. Nor, if
they chanced to appear and to take part in the public processions, did they act at all licentiously. Nor did they behave imprudently in any other respect, although the tents were contiguous to each other, and they all lay promiscuously together. The place is open country, and arable, and without houses, with the exception of the buildings around Abraham's old oak and the well he prepared. No one during the time of the feast drew water from that well; for according to Pagan usage, some placed burning lamps near it; some poured out wine, or cast in cakes; and others, coins, myrrh, or incense. Hence, as I suppose, the water was rendered useless by commixture with the things cast into it. Once whilst these customs were being celebrated by the Pagans, after the aforesaid manner, and as was the established usage with hilarity, the mother-in-law of Constantine was present for prayer, and apprised the emperor of what was being done. On receiving this information, he rebuked the bishops of Palestine in no measured terms, because they had neglected their duty, and had permitted a holy place to be defiled by impure libations and sacrifices; and he expressed his godly censure in an epistle which he wrote on the subject to Macarius, bishop of Jerusalem, to Eusebius Pamphilus,
22/174 and to the bishops of Palestine. He commanded these bishops to hold a conference on this subject with the Phoenician bishops, and issue directions for the demolition, from the foundations, of the altar formerly erected there, the destruction of the carved images by fire, and the erection of a church worthy of so ancient and so holy a place. The emperor finally enjoined, that no libations or sacrifices should be offered on the spot, but that it
should be exclusively devoted to the worship of God according to the law of the Church; and that if any attempt should be made to restore the former rites, the bishops were to inform against the delinquent, in order that he might be subjected to the greatest punishment. The governors and priests of Christ strictly enforced the injunctions contained in the emperor's letter.'Nishidani (talk) 21:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Something odd about the use of 'the Palestinians' in 5th century Greek, so checked another translation 

message: The Abraham's angel visitation being revered by the Eastern Orthodox Christians as a pre-figurement of the new testament Holy Trinity.Majeska, George P. (1984) Russian Travelers to Constantinople in the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Centuries Dumbarton Oaks,  p 229 The Constantine church appears on the Madaba Map.Nishidani (talk) 21:17, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed but sourced. Chech 

message: A new entry on the historically important Moravian Mission of Mamre, in South Africa (Province of the Western Cape) (1806) is needed.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.226.60.68 (talk) 07:28, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mamre in South Africa 

message: This article seems to be entirely lacking when it comes to the identification of the site.  How old is the tradition that this place is the Mamre of the Bible? Zerotalk 11:25, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  identification 

message: The Tristram image is most probably the so-called "Oak of Mamre", which is NOT at Mamre, but more than halfway towards historical Hebron, and now within modern Hebron. Mamre is farther north of Hebron.
Madaba Map: there is only a fraction of the name, "MAM", still visible on the mosaic, at the right margin of what is left of it and right next to the modern pillar. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 16:01, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures 

message: "Herod: the enclosure". The last sentence reads:
It contained an ancient well, more than 5 m in diameter,{reference: Jericke p.?.}{reference: Letellier} referred to as Abraham's Well.{reference: Heyden 2020}
All this is highly problematic:
#reference: "Jericke p.?." — no page indicated. Google Books offers no help. Maybe Jericke not even correct author/source.
#reference: "Letellier" — Again, what page? Google Books offers no help, searched for "Abraham's well", diameter/-re" - no hit! Even worse: Letellier's topic is text exegesis, not archaeology. Seems to be the wrong book for what it's offered as a source for. So both Jericke and Letellier probably quoted by mistake.
#reference: "Heyden 2020" — This was my attempt at a partial & temporary solution, but it's not a good one. Source is good in general, should be kept as bibliography even if removed from this line. Heyden does mention "Abraham's Well", but she seems to write about the Byzantine period and later (didn't read whole article yet), so the name could also be valid for Herod's time, or maybe not. Is this whole last sentence based on Josephus? What other source is there for the Herodian period? I guess none.
#Does the sentence even refer to Herod's time, or is it about the next period altogether?
#Diameter of 5 m: nowhere in the sources. No size is mentioned.
#Diameter of 5 m: Mader's plans all show the well as being from Constantine's time, not Herod's. According to the plans' scale, the diametre is of c. 2.5 m , so half the size from our article. If there was a wider Herodian well there, found at digs, we need a source, but I doubt it. Again, the whole sentence looks very fishy. Arminden (talk) 21:43, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't worry about who made the edits, me or anyone else. Just chuck out whatever can't be verified. No worries. There's the talk page to tell future editors what's to be done if this stuff is restored, i.e. find sources. Cheers Nishidani (talk) 16:14, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Herodian enclosure, content: useless sources