Talk:William of Orange

message: Vote concluded 18:56, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote count

message: I asked user talk:217.140.193.123 why he/she choose to remove his/her signature from a couple of the paragraphs here including the WP:RM proposal which kicked off this vote. See: history of this talk page. The answer was: "I do not want my signature to be transferred. As someone had done." You will notice that the first signature was a copy of the one on the WP:RM page which is needed because at the end of this vote as the proposal will be removed from the WP:RM page and this becomes the only place where the history of the proposition will remain. The second was an template:unsigned2  which was added by me because user talk:217.140.193.123 had chosen not to sign a contribution. I think this is a little hypocritical of 217.140.193.123 when in the conversation below 217.140.193.123 states: "The above is very difficult to read: one gets an impression of rant and ramble, as writers have not signed." Because I think it important that who said what is recorded , particularly the initial proposal, I have re-added the information as a sentence with my signature attached. Philip Baird Shearer 11:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: For the record

message: :"All the links to this page [...] are links to the man under the article William III of England": That's easily checked. On the first page of "what links here" of William of Orange, currently Philip II of Spain, Hugo Grotius, List of people on stamps of the Netherlands, List of people by name: Wil, Geuzen, Philips van der Aa, and Anthony More refer to William the Silent; Civilization III Conquests as well, probably; William actually seems to refer to William II of Orange; Willem Bilderdijk refers to William I of the Netherlands. Eugene van der Pijll 18:57, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Links to the Page William of Orange

message: Proposing to put the following *temporarily* on the "William of Orange" page during the proceedings of the vote (see also: User_talk:Philip_Baird_Shearer#WoO):
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This is the simplified version of the William of Orange disambiguation page, mentioning only the two most frequent choices when referring to William of Orange:
* In the context of Irish and British history, William of Orange refers most often to William III of England (1650-1702), also king of England, also known as William III of Orange(-Nassau), William II of Scotland, "King Billy" and William Henry (In Dutch: "Willem Hendrik")
*In the context of Dutch history, William the Silent (1533-1584) is most often meant, a.k.a.William I of Orange(-Nassau), also known as William the Silent (In Dutch: "Willem de Zwijger")
See William of Orange (disambiguation) for all other persons named William of Orange.

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if nobody objects, I'll proceed with that ASAP --Francis Schonken 13:13, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I object to this measure. I have moved it down here to a stand alone section, so that it is clear of the WP:RM voting section. I did this because the WP:RM guide lines state "This can take any form that is reasonable for administrators to follow" and having this section in the middle of the WP:RM section did not aid clarity. Philip Baird Shearer 16:11, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggested temporary solution

message: :Further, for what it's worth, I just listed J.K. on Wikipedia:AMA Requests for Assistance, for starting a "page move war" on William I of Orange/William I, Prince of Orange. Such edit wars are a "not done" (to say the least), see: Wikipedia:Move#Undoing_a_move_2. --Francis Schonken 17:34, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Francis, that has been rather improper. No one should use words like "vandal", "vandalism" as loosely. Vandalism has a rather narrow definition here, Wikipedia:vandalism. The naming question of the article about William the Silent should be processed in a more orderly manner. I admit that the NC is not perfect, and there could be reasons to name otherwise. Actually, the NC for these classes was made mostly because some provinces have got elevated (using same name) to higher titles, such as Duke of Bavaria, Elector of Bavaria and King of Bavaria, and sometimes an elevated ruler started the ordinals anew, thus causing e.g two persons being named Maximilian I of Bavaria etc. Orange apparently was never anything else than principality (though actually we could find two persons named William I of Orange, one is William the Silent who could have been William IX, and the other a much earlier, medieval Frenchman - but the current NC actually is putting both of them to William I, Prince of Orange). Arrigo 12:00, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Sometimes it is good to have no policy. I am not sure whether for that class of sub-monarchs, though. For me, THE question between two persons named William I of Orange would be interesting to solve. Do we need to put a brief disclaimer to the start of William the Silent's article that warns against confusing him with a medieval Frenchman who has (at least afaik) not an own article. ??? Or do we move him to William I of Orange-Nassau or as the current NC apparently requires, William I, Prince of Orange, Count of Nassau ??? Arrigo 15:50, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that is an important point you are raising there. After the war of independence with Spain the Netherlands became a republic and not a monarchy. However for most of the republics life the Oranges behaved as if they were monarchs. The office of Stadholder even becoming hereditary for some time. So even if the title Prince of Orange was not monarchical, in practice it meant the same thing (a bit like the Roman Emperors not being called kings though for all practical purposes they were). For the rest your example doesn't hold very well since it would have to be John 1, Duke of Marlborough. William 1 of Orange is the first king of the Netherlands were of Orange isn't so much a title as a family name (like Charles II Stuart, king of England) Chardon 15:59, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Orange was a small territory near Avignon in southern France, and was, most certainly, a monarchical title - certainly it was so in William the Silent's day, although I think it was eventually annexed by Louis XIV.  The Oranges also were semi-sovereign noblemen of certain parts of the Netherlands, like Breda, and, I think, over some of the Nassau territories (certainly the post-1702 branch ruled over significant Nassau territories). None of this was directly related to their role as Stadtholders of the Netherlands. john k 22:24, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I see your point (and just reread the Wikipedia: naming convention). However I was talking about the role the Oranges played in the Netherlands and where their position was very much like that of a king (though of course not an absolute monarch) and that it would not be correct to compare them to the Dukes of Bavaria (who only were mediatised princes (but much older nobility compared to the upstart Nassau's)). I think we should look at their position in the Republic (an independent state) and not if they held the title king or not. That's why William the Silent should be William I of Orange because he was the first to rule an independent country (even though he wears the name of an other country). Chardon 08:22, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

text:  The problem with the Oranges is that they were the rulers of one country (the republic) but not it's kings and hold the name of another country. They are best known for the role they played in the history of the Republic and what they did in Southern France only a few experts would know (probably just collecting rents). To fit this situation to the wikipedia rules seems to me impossible. Best is to follow tradition and let their position in the Netherlands take preeminence. William the Silent becomes William I of Orange (the first ruler of the independent Netherlands) and the first king of the Netherlands becomes William I (family name), king of the Netherlands. Chardon 09:39, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, I still forgot to mention here that in the mean while a vote was started on this issue on the "William, Prince of Orange" talk page. Further comments are to be found there too, and you can vote for (or aganst!) the requested move. --Francis Schonken 01:03, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: William I of Orange/William I, Prince of Orange

message: See also: Talk:William III of England/Archive 1#redirect from William of Orange
Lame fame: William of Orange (disambiguation), William of Orange (see edit history at ) was the name of two important and well-known protestant Heads of State and also of some obscurer individuals in mists of history - or was He just only one King of England and all the others are minor characters. That became the object of a dispute over a redirect. This vital question divided a bunch of eminent readers of history and led to revert war that alternated the redirect almost each hour. Casual viewers were holding their breaths when coming smiling to check what is the current position of that weathervane. As the name's usage in English-speaking cultures was perceived the determining factor, see attempts to almost hand-count English-speakers in New Zealand, South Africa etc - all apparently using the hallowed name in certain way. Extensive and in-depth argumentation in several talk pages and usertalk pages included claims of original primary authorship of a redirect as well as accusations of nationalistic POV, filibusters and "using all the tricks in the box". This teaches us some things about disambiguation pages and potential problems surrounding even such tools. Nothing has been settled yet, and all the time more fallout is generating (comment from 217.140.193.123 13:03, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment from 217.140.193.123 

message: I've sometimes seen William III of England referred to as "William of OranJe", and I created a redirect page for William of Oranje->William III of England. I don't know how to fit it into the bigger picture, but thought I'd just post it here as an FYI JW (talk) 20:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's a half-baked tranlation.
William of Orange <-> Willem van Oranje
All the same, simply point it to this disamb. page. Daimanta (talk) 01:01, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: William of Oranje

message: This page seems to be a hybrid of an article and a disambiguation page. It seems to me that William III should be put after a generic one sentence intro and that the TOC should either be after that or suppressed. Does anyone object to making this a more standard dab page? -Rrius (talk) 04:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Layout 

message: he ruled ireland 4 some time  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.81.224 (talk) 18:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  1 fact about him