Talk:Poison (Final Fight)

message: People are constantly questioning Poisons gender. If anyone has any scans of the books where its says she is a newhalf that would help to end debates.
A "newhalf?" --AWF
-I changed it to the better sounding "transsexual".  That should clear it up.  TheHelldragon 23:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ---Posion's Gender--- 

message: The alleged phone call from capcom USA to Japan (Besides being unsourced) makes no sense, as if the change to "newhalfs" is true, then the Billy and Sid replacements wouldn't be necessary. Since the enemies were actually changed, I'll assume that the first part is incorrect, and remove that part. If anyone disagrees, bring it up here, or cite an official source before reverting. -- Digital Watches! 01:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Giant contradiction. 

message: This is in regards to the request for assessment on the CVG Assessment page.  I have rated this article as B-class, with a few recommendations for improvement-  There are quite a few instances of unencyclopedic tone and weasel words sprinkled throuhgout this article that need cleaned up, though most of those need to be referenced as well.  I haven't looked at the PR for this article, but I hope it's going well.  Oh, and depending on who you get at GA, the "In-universe" part of the infobox might be frowned upon, though at least it's toned down and out of the article itself.  Great job on improving this since I last came upon it!  --PresN 05:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  CVG Assessment 

message: See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games#Notable? for a discussion about this article's notability (or lack thereof). Kariteh (talk) 14:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notability 

message: I've put some improvement templates on the article, as it needs more third-party sources and should not use forum posts as sources. More information about the character's creation and the designer's influences. Cheers. Kariteh (talk) 08:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needs improvement 

message: While I think this article needs to be destroyed and merged into Final Fight, I must point out that Poison (along with Roxy) was conceived as a newhalf long before the release of the arcade game. If you look closely at the black and white line art showing Poison and Roxy at Capcom Classics Collection, they're both clearly identified as "newhalf" in handwriting. There seems to be a common misconception (most likely from Tiamat's FAQ) that the character was originally female and then secretly changed her gender after complains from Capcom's US staff. But the concept artwork seems to indicate otherwise. Jonny2x4 (talk) 01:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Problem is All About Capcom and non-Tiamat related subject material do make mention of the change having taken place with the character. If it's a common misconception, line art done in CCC that could easily have come after the fact just leads to a counter speculation is all. It's hardly definitive proof.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 03:00, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: For the record, I've just purchased a copy of AAC, just to verify all the "facts" in Tiamat's FAQ, as there's always likely to be a mistranslation. I'm more interested in the development commentary there, if there's any. Jonny2x4 (talk) 04:13, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can scan and translate the material related to her (and if not translate, I have a few people I know that could assist with that), that would be rather useful. Thing is, even if it does disprove that wasn't said, there are enough sources that apparently believe it enough, to the point that it became an example of censorship (not to mention Capcom's whole flip-flop). So either way still something to discuss and cite.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 04:26, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

text: ...But that's wrong. Capcom changed them to newhalfs at suggestion, not because someone asked anything. And the second part only occurs on Nintendo ports, not the arcade game or others.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 23:33, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Like I said, the idea that she was changed after Capcom America's suggestion contradicts a lot of other evidence (cited in this very article). History is a bit hazy on this one, but what we know for sure is 1. if she was indeed changed, she was changed before the Japanese release 2. when Capcom America raised an objection about violence towards women, they got an answer that there are no women in the game and that the girls are transvestites (again, if there was a change, it was already in place by then). Both these points are confirmed by more than one sources. The proposed change summarizes all this without making a claim that the character was originally female, which as a supposed fact is not very well sourced and seems to rely on word-of-mouth stories spread over the internet more than anything else. The only actual source that seems to support the story that she was once supposed to be female seems to be the All About Capcom Head to Head Fighting Games book, but there's no translations of it anywhere and no one has any scans or pictures of it, so I'm not sure how reliable it is (especially considering that it contradicts both other evidence and common sense). How about we change the "Originally conceived as a female thug in Final Fight and part of the game's antagonist group, Mad Gear, concerns about reactions from North American audiences to fighting women resulted in the character being changed to a newhalf. When concerns were brought up by a playtester for the Super Nintendo's North American localization, both Poison and Roxy were replaced by male characters "Billy" and "Sid", and have been for every subsequent North American port of the title on Nintendo consoles and handhelds." to simply "A thug in Final Fight and part of the game's antagonist group, Mad Gear. When concerns were brought up by a playtester for the Super Nintendo's North American localization, both Poison and Roxy were replaced by male characters "Billy" and "Sid", and have been for every subsequent North American port of the title on Nintendo consoles and handhelds." Less repetition, less of a polarizing opening statement and there is an objective mention of that quote from the All About Capcom book later in the article anyway so all the bases are covered.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.172.188.180 (talk) 13:01, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poison's gender 

message: Heads up to whomever tagged this article: You're supposed to say something on the talkpage too, not just driveby with a template.
Anyway, I oppose a merge as this article is a perfectly well sourced and notable subject that would unnecessarily dominate the main article, given the relative length of both.  Ford MF (talk) 13:44, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Even with all the cited references, I still don't see what's the big deal is Poison. Most of the focus seems to be around the character's genitalia and sexual identity than anything else. The controversy is notable by itself, but the character is not. Outside of Final Fight, she had a couple of cameos in the Alpha series and some obscure Japan-only Quiz game, was a non-playable supporting character in SF III and had a playable appearance in one semi-notable Final Fight spinoff, not to mention two canceled appearances. For the record, the Japanese Wikipedia used to have a separate article about Poison, but it was merged back to Final Fight. Meh. At least the article is a lot better now. Jonny2x4 (talk) 06:00, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge proposal

message: Why would capcom change Poison to a transvestite male to avoid the No-men-will-hit-girls-issue? America has a social stigma against Homosexuality! And what about Chun-Li from street Fighter, Mai from Fatal Fury, and don't forget Nintendo's Super Smash bros Games (where, might I add, the player can choose to have men beat up wemon)? It just doesn't make sense. You think by having a Female fighter would bring more of the male gamers over to final fight. I even see fanartists who know about the whole Poison-is-a-guy thing but still depict her as a female (complete with Boobs). You'd think that capcom would revert her back to being a woman, right?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.101.123 (talk) 10:18, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Controversy sells games.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 14:20, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

text: what's homosexuality got to do with it? There's no indication that she's gay. --86.146.160.234 (talk) 10:44, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are you serious?!? 

message: I do not think that the the words transsexual and transvestite should be used interchangeably when referring to Poison.  They imply very different things.  If Poison thinks of herself as a she then it would be most appropriate to refer to her as a transsexual rather than a transvestite.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jettheblackdog2000 (talk • contribs) 05:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I think the distinction here is the whole operation issue. If you notice, "transsexual" is only used in Ono's quote, while transvestite (which is used alongside "newhalf" in Capcom's official material) is used for the actual article.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 14:59, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transsexual vs Transvestite 

message: In recent interview the japanese verison of Posion has been revealed to be a man who just tucks his stuff!
"Is Poison really a man?
SF4 producer Ono explains that Poison was always meant to be a man and that in the Japanese version of Final Fight Poison is man that simply tucks his “business” away, while in the US version Poison is officially a post op transsexual."
http://www.capcom-unity.com/street_fighter/go/thread/view/7411/626401/Street_Fighter_4_FAQ__READ_FIRST&post_num=3#9043991
Like Admiral akbar has said before "It's a TRAP!"-67.180.225.161 (talk) 09:05, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Dammit Admiral Ackbar! Anyway, yep, that's right. ZappaOMati 22:59, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  IT'S A TRAP! 

message: I suggest that the main image for this page be changed to her most recent official incarnation, Street Fighter X Tekken. I am unsure of how to upload my own file. However I do have a link to the image I am referring to. If someone would be kind enough to change it to this, it'd be appreciated. http://www.fightersgeneration.com/np8/char/sfxtekken/poison-sfxtekken-white.jpg  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.49.115.193 (talk) 04:26, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I really have to disagree there...all that image adds is a few inches of leg, and when you cut it down for fair use purposes you get a much less detailed image. Not to mention the added "effect" on her hair doesn't help. Several wikipedia articles for fictional characters don't use the most recent artwork for reasons that the selected work is most recognizable for the character. It should be fine here.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 04:44, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Main Image 

message: The idea of "original research" is that one looks at material in front of them and draws their own conclusions, based on "what makes sense" and so forth despite having to stretch details to fill the points. The biggest problem here is that one piece of artwork is being cited as "proof": the concept art from Final Fight. With that stated the artwork has no date or accompanying notes regarding the characters themselves other than a "newhalf" text at the bottom. However, the issue regarind Poison and Roxy being newhalfs in FF1 was...already stated by Capcom in their own book. All the book itself states is that Capcom originally intended female characters, but went with newhalfs over worries about how American audiences would perceive violence against women. It never states how long the design was or whatnot, and what occurred with the US Nintendo port is its own matter.
Even Akiman himself in another Capcom art book states the original intention of characters with female bodies was to be a contrast to Haggar. So I'm missing the problem here: the issue is whether or not Poison was female before planning on the game as a whole took place?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 04:11, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, thanks for posting and explaining. I now understand what you're saying. Here is the problem. There is a persistent myth that holds that in the Japanese release of the game Poison was female, but because Capcom and/or Nintendo feared that women's rights groups in North America would object to having women subjected to violence in games, Poison in the North America version would be "newhalf". After realizing that there would be further controversy around having something so taboo in a video game primarily aimed at kids, Capcom and/or Nintendo decided to have her completely taken out of the first North American release. The first part of the myth is completely inaccurate. The main point the YouTube video was emphasizing was that Poison was never classified as "female" in any official game notes on her, not even in Japan. She was always described as "newhalf". From what you're saying, the book stated BEFORE the conceptual art took place (which also entails before the release of the first Final Fight edition in Japan) Poison was female and by the conceptual art phase, she became a "newhalf". If that is what the book is stating, then there is no contradiction at all. I was merely trying to clearly point out the fact that up to now, she was always described as a "newhalf" in all of the video games she appeared in. 74.108.232.27 (talk) 06:59, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well really the text here does state that: they went with female characters at first then changed them to newhalfs because of concerns. The bit about Nintendo is accurate though too, but only applies to North American versions of the game on Nintendo consoles. Poison still very much appears on the US arcade, Sega console etc versions, while Billy and Sid only appear in Nintendo ports. The bigger misconception comes from people believing that this affected all ports of the games, which clearly didn't happen. If anything I would only go so far as to point out that the concept art says newhalf to quell complaints about it being "improper" and "engrish" when that's the actual word being used. You can cite the game for that, I ripped that for Fighting Street from one of the PSP Capcom Classics Collections games but overlooked it for writing this. As far as the video...it can't be cited. Wikipedia has to deal with reliable sources and when you're drawing your own conclusions and maybes that aren't from the horse's mouth, that's when you head into Original Research territory. Not to mention while it's been a bit since I saw that video, I believe it omits the fact they retconned Roxy as female.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 07:15, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

text: EDIT CONFLICT: Actually...that last bit isn't true either. Final Fight Revenge never states either, and treats her as female, and SF3 left the subject alone too. It didn't pop back up in games until SvC Chaos with a throwaway line, and more heavily when Ono decided that "oh hey controversy sells!" Making a statement like "she's a newhalf in every game" is drawing your own conclusions, which again fits into the OR thing.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 07:15, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fair enough on Wiki's standard of research, though accompanying game notes from the company could be construed as from "the horse's mouth". Some (myself included) find it very odd that nowhere in any video game is Poison officially termed "female". Characters such as Chun Li, Cammy and Juri at some point have clearly been characterized as female but not Poison. If there is any official gender description on the character, it's always been "newhalf". So Ono isn't really adding to the controversy, other than the whole "pre-op", "post-op" thing. From what I understand, even in the old arcade versions of the game, there are strong hints in the game that points to the character not being "entirely female". 74.108.232.27 (talk) 01:39, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research video on youtube 

message: I've seen a couple examples of reliable sources that criticize her for being newhalf;  for example. Is there any possibility that more sources could be found that come from that angle? - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 13:32, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possibility of inclusion of negative reception? 

message: The entire " Conception and history" section is only about how Poison is transgendered. It hardly details Poinson's inspiration. I do not know for sure but Poison's design is most likely from Samantha Fox's music video "Naughty Girls Need Love Too"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXEN57rFnIM  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.239.158 (talk) 15:31, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conception and history 

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