Talk:Franco-Mongol alliance/Archive 4

message: The article about John of Montecorvino states that he went to Khanbalyk by ship, so passing through Karakorum would be somewhat difficult. Even overland Karakorum seems a bit out of the way. Yaan (talk) 20:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I indeed had the same doubts when I took the segment from Medieval Roman Catholic Missions in China. I suppose that "passing Karakorum" is a typo for "bypassing Karakorum". Would it make more sense? Regards. PHG (talk) 20:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Hi Yaan. I think what is meant is that the onland route to Mongol lands in the East normally implied a passage through the capital Karakorum. Regards. PHG (talk) 07:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  John de Monte Corvino passing through Karakorum? 

message: Just to see if there's any rough consensus for the rename which is a big issue right now, I'm just listing here some people who have supported or opposed the renaming of this article. Yes I know there had been a poll before here but it had only 3 other people besides Elonka and PHG participate so lets see if we can get more people in. If you list yourself in this list, please also provide a short reason (this is not a simple yay/nay poll). If I've listed anyone wrongly, please fix it:
Keep the current title (Franco-Mongol alliance)
* PHG (main disputing party)
* Tourskin: "Leave the article's name as it is." ... (detail)
*Srnec: "however I am opposed to renaming the article" ... (detail)
*Adam Bishop: "I know I suggested some of the other titles, but if this one has been used in the literature, then we are kind of obliged to go along with it." detail
Rename to Franco-Mongol diplomatic relations or similar
*Elonka: (main disputing party)
*Ealdgyth: "would "Franco-Mongol diplomatic relations" work as a title"?
*Aramgar: "The new title ought to be either Franco-Mongol diplomacy or Franco-Mongol relations. I prefer the former" -  detail
*john k: "Either of those is preferable to the current title." detail
* Deacon of Pndapetzim: "Something along the lines of Mongol-Catholic relations during the Crusading period would be more appropriate than the current title." - detail
Undecided currently:
* Matt57
Please add your opinion here if its not listed. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 18:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Voting is evil, especially when it is already clear consensus is unlikely. Arnoutf (talk) 18:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats why I've asked for a reason besides signing up. RfA's, AfD's are all "votes" or polls or consensus, whatever you want to call it. RfA's are actually worse, people come and sign up as Support/Oppose, frequently without giving a reason. That process is accepted here but this 'poll' is better since I'm asking people to provide a reason. This discourages the simple nay/yay the policy page you link to mentions. You're right though, there isnt appearing any consensus on this issue as of right now. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 19:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think that a straw poll at some point may be a good idea, but I don't think that we're at that point yet.  Right now, a poll may have the unfortunate side effect of making it look like opinions are polarized, when I don't think that's the case.  Also, the current structure of this one is making it look like people have weighed in, in a "poll" format, when these are just comments in a discussion.  And lastly, some of the comments above are many months old, and not necessarily still valid.   If we do want to go with a poll format, it might be better to list various alternatives, and then ask everyone to weigh in on which ones that they would support. --Elonka 19:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I was just going through past discussions and bringing in all the opinions together to see what people have said. The main point is that currently it seems there is no consensus for doing anything about the title and this is what I wanted to find out. As for people's comments being outdated, I doubt they've changed their opinions. Some have not come back for the discussion here. If there are any old opinions, we could contact those people and reconfirm their opinion. Do you feel there is a consensus for the title change? --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 19:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough, reading just the introduction of this vote I got a bit worried it migh be overinterpreted. If the only conclusion is that there is no consensus, that is fine with me. Quantifying qualitative arguments tends to create the perception of precision and 'truth'. That is why I am very hesitant about polls. Arnoutf (talk) 21:51, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I've clarified it slightly to discourage plain voters. They should give some argument for their reasons. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 23:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poll for renaming the article 

message: I just created the “last piece” in the puzzle of the geopolitics of the Middle East under the Mongols: the alliance between the Mamluks and the Mongols of the Golden Horde (Mamluk-Mongol alliance). This alliance actually worked as a counter-balance to the Franco-Mongol and to the Armeno-Mongol alliances. The Byzantine Empire had a more ambivalent posture and actually allied alternatively, and sometimes with both, the Il-Khanate and the Golden Horde. I also created a template that will permit navigation between these various political and military alliances.  I guess this might again irk a few, but frankly this interweaving pattern of alliances, between the Ilkhanate and the Golden Horde on the one hand, and the Franks, the Mamluks and the Byzantine Empire on the other, is perfectly presented throughout historical literature. Best regards.PHG (talk) 18:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: PHG, this is getting ridiculous.  This is obviously just another attempt on your part to push this POV of "there was an alliance."  Multiple editors now have been speaking up against your actions, and yet you keep escalating.  The template needs to be either deleted, or rewritten for neutrality.  Please stop this disruptive behavior. --Elonka 19:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Perfectly presented throughout historical literature"? Would such a perfect presentation of academic consensus have generated the reams of archives on this page? I see one editor pushing a suspect POV, and several other informed editors with serious concerns. This seems to me just another Hydra's head. Please, let us resolve disputes here prior to any grand expansion. Aramgar (talk) 19:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This template illustrates the various alliances at play in the Middle East during the Mongol Empire in the 13th-14th century. These alliances were also highly connected. The Mamluk-Mongol alliance worked as a counter-balance to the Franco-Mongol and to the Armeno-Mongol alliances. See historian Ryley-Smith for example: "When the Golden Horde allied with the Mamluks, the Ilkhanate looked towards an alliance with the Christians" (Atlas of the Crusades, Jonathan Riley-Smith, p.112, French edition), with is the exact illustration of this template. Regards. PHG (talk) 20:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Mongol alliances in the Middle-East

message: Template: has been nominated for deletion. All interested parties are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Elonka 20:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion nomination of [[:Template:{{ucfirst:Mongol alliances}}]] 

message: More Mongol quotations for you: 
From 
p. 135 in the context of Louis IX's crusade at Damietta, and after the payment of his ransom ... "During the withdrawl [from Damietta] the king was captured and only released on payment of a ransom of 800,000 besants and the cession of Damietta. Despite this disaster the king stayed in Outremer for another four years, rebuilding his defences and making contact with the Mongols, with whom the possibility of an alliance was being canvassed."
p. 507 "Although in the east Kubilai remained amenable to visits by westerners, including the Polos and the mendicants [friars in this case], any slim hope that a Mongol-Christian alliance could revive the sinking fortunes of the Crusader States had largely vanished by the 1260's, despite sporadic attempts at reviving it."
You may also wish to look at  , especially the last chapter, where he states that (page 390) in 1300 "Ghazan, before leaving Damascus, sent ambassadors to the pope and the sovereigns of Europe, urging them to pour men, money and armaments into Palestine, which was his gift to them. He wanted an alliance between the Mongols and the countries of Europe against the Mamelukes, and he was prepared to back up the alliance with his vast army." and later "The pope told the Mongol ambassadors that the time was not ripe for another Crusade, and the soverigns of Europe said the same." It should be noted that this is a popular history, and is not footnoted very well.
Lastly, about King Edward I of England. From , which is the most modern scholarly biography of Edward. 
p. 75, dealing with Edward's crusade in 1271, "Edward spent frustrating weeks in Acre before moving against the enemy. His men and horses had to be prepared, and diplomatic arrangements had to be made. An English embassy was sent to the Mongol II-Khan Abagha, to try to organize concerted action against the redoubtable Baibars." (this is footnoted to Liber de Antiquis Legibus: Cronica maiorum et vicecomitum Londoniarum ed. T. Stapleton Camden Society 1846 p. 143)
p. 78, still dealing with 1271-1272, this after Edward's attempt to take the fortress of Qaqun, while the Mongols advanced on Syria. "He [Edward] may have hoped that help would be provided by the Mongols, but Baibars soon  entered into negotiations with them, and it became clear that they had no intention of launching a major campaign in the Holy Land."
p. 82, an assessment of Edward's crusade "In Palestine, Edward's diplomatic efforts to obtain the co-operation of the Mongols achieved little, and in military terms his troops were too few to achieve much."
p. 331, talking about a proposed crusade after the fall of Acre in 1291, "The prospects for the crusade were undoubtedly diminished in the absence of the hoped-for Mongol alliance." and later on the same page "In that year the West rejoiced at news that a Mongol army under a new Il-Khan, Ghazan, had retaken Jerusalem, which was now thought to be safe for Christianity. The news was, of course, a considerable exaggeration of the facts, for Ghazan's control of the Holy Land only lasted a few months, and he was the first of the Il-Khans to accept the Moslem faith, a piece of information his envoys withheld from the West."
p. 332 same context, "The failure of the Mongol alliance was but one of the many obstacles in the way of Edward's crusade in the early 1290's."
I didn't see these works referenced yet in the discussion. Certainly if we're going to discuss Edward I of England we should look at Prestwich's biography. Barber's is one of the more recent overviews of medieval history, and Payne's book is a popular history of the Crusades, designed to reach the non-historian audience. Comments in brackets are mine to elucidate the context. Ealdgyth | Talk 21:23, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Ealdgyth, that's very helpful.  :)  I've gone ahead and added the information to User:Elonka/Mongol historians.  If you see anything that needs changing, or would like to add other authors, please feel free.  In fact, anyone who wishes to add other authors is free to do so, though of course I reserve the right to tweak as needed. --Elonka 01:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Ealdgyth. All sources are welcome. PHG (talk) 04:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: More data points

message: Since it appears that the articles and template currently up for deletion (save, hopefully, the Mongol generals) will be deleted, I am writing this so that we are prepared to deal with some of the issues that such deletion may sidestep. First, there is no doubt that the article at its current length must be shortened somehow. But this cannot occur until the accuracy disputes are settled. Second, there are Armeno-, Byzantine-, and Mamluk-Mongol alliance articles that do not appear to be disputed (greatly, or asides from any refs to this article). The first issue could be partially ameliorated if any information redundant to both this article and one of the non-disputed ones is removed from here unless it is directly pertinent. Third, if these three articles are undisputed and this one remains under its current title (as I favour), then we will have four "x-Mongol alliance" articles without any over-arching connexion. PHG had created a template and article which are slanted for deletion (which I favour, since they disrupt the dispute-resolution process and could be easily re-created more accurately once it is resolved). Should there be any over-arching organisation if three of these Mongol alliances are undisputed and a fourth was a very real goal of certain diplomacy? Should this include a template like the one up for deletion? An article like the one up for deletion? Finally, are the other Mongol allinace articles actually undisputed asides from any Franco- refs in them? Could these issues be solved rapidly in such a way as to perhaps salvage the template & article up for deletion? Srnec (talk) 05:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Srnec! It is true that scholars are divided on the extent of the Franco-Mongol alliance (Although even those who write about "attempts only" still use the "Franco-Mongol alliance" expression anyway (relevant to article title). Many historians do consider the alliance as fact (User:PHG/Alliance), and many consider it was an alliance that ultimately failed (true), and a few deny there was an alliance at all. To me, this is just a Wikipedia:NPOV issue: we should just outline the differing opinions, and leave it at that. This is why I consider important an introduction sentence such as "A Franco-Mongol alliance, or attempts towards such an alliance, was the objective of...", because it allows to present both views. "Franco-Mongol alliance" (or variations of it) is a widely accepted academic expression for this subject however, so should stand in its own right. Best regards. PHG (talk) 13:00, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm inclined to think that the other articles would be just as disputed if we had the time and expertise to examine them as much as we do this one (perhaps all of PHG's articles would be). Adam Bishop (talk) 14:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Adam. In retrospect, my propensity for little-known multi-cultural subjects might indeed be a favourable ground for arguments and disputes, but all I write is referenced from reputable published sources, and is based on quite a lot of research. Should you wish to challenge anything, I will be glad to discuss, as always. Best regards. PHG (talk) 15:02, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Content organisation 

message: I added in User:PHG/Alliance a quite straiforward quote by Reuven Amitai-Preiss in Mongols and Mamluks (1995) about the unequivocal alliance of the Franks and the Mongols under Bohemond VI: 
 
He goes on detailing the instances in which the Mongols further came to the rescue of the Frank Antiochians when they were attacked by the Mamluks, until the Fall of Antioch in 1268. This is but one more source. I would wish that some editors stop claiming that an alliance never existed, in the face of so many reputable and prominent historians who do say it did. PHG (talk) 15:37, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll note that this is an 8 year period out of approximately 100 years. 8 years of an alliance between Antioch and the Mongols does not necessarily mean that the whole of Western Europe was allied to the Mongols for the whole time period. You keep referring to "AN" alliance. I would posit that it is more correct to say "ALLIANCES" existed, each one of limited duration and scope.Ealdgyth | Talk 16:53, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Was there an overarching alliance? This is a matter of academical controversy. Many authors tend to consider the Franco-Mongol alliance as a global phenomenon encompassing various finite events (see User:PHG/Alliance). I think this is due to the encompassing goodwill and agreements for cooperation exchanged between the Popes and the Il-Khan rulers. On the field, the Franco-Mongol alliance concretized into various finite collaborative actions between 1258 to 1302. As far as I know, no authority has ever said "Franco-Mongol ALLIANCES" (plural). It would be a total neologism. Please see answer hereunder. Regards. PHG (talk) 17:13, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My point is, that most of these historians you're referring to are talking about short term alliances. Like the above quote, which you clearly say applies to an alliance with ran from a battle in 1260 until 1268. That's one alliance. Then we talk about an alliance when Edward I was in the Holy Land in 1271, which lasted while he was there. Another alliance. The Oldenburg quotation states that the alliance that started in 1280 against a specific person. That's another alliance. The Riley-Smith quotation discusses an alliance that started in 1285. Each of those historians is referring to an alliance, yes, but they are talking about an alliance that is bounded in a shorter time frame than what is covered by the article. Or to put it another way, how can a "global phenomenon" as you describe it, have so many starting dates? Each historian is giving a new starting date - 1260 for Reuven Amitai-Preiss, 1270 for Prestwich, 1280 for Oldenburg, 1285 for Riley-Smith. Clearly they are discussing different local/specific alliances, and to argue that they are all referring to one global phenomenon looks to me like Original Research. I could be wrong, but I'd like to hear other voices on this, from other editors, such as Srnec, Adam Bishop, John K, etc. And certainly it would be nice to hear from some other newer editors. It's a collabrative project after all. And once more... could we use edit summaries? Ealdgyth | Talk 17:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right that many authors are not so coherent about the time frame. I suspect that many are aware of some events, but not necessarily of all events that occured. For example for many authors 1302 falls out of their horizon for the Crusades in the Levant (which often are thought to finish in 1291 with the Fall of Acre). To me, the clearest author on the subject is the leading French historian Jean Richard: Jean Richard in Histoire des Croisades, has the Franco-Mongol alliance start in earnest in the 1260s ("The sustained attacks of Baibars (...) rallied the Occidentals to this alliance, to which the Mongols also convinced the Byzantines to adhere", in "Histoire des Croisades", p.453.) and continue on-and-off until it was strongly revived by Ghazan, to continue to have an influence until 1322 ("In 1297 Ghazan resumes his projects against Egypt (...) the Franco-Mongol cooperation had thus survived, to the loss of Acre by the Franks, and to the conversion of the khan to Islam. It was to remain one of the political factors of the policy of the Crusades, until the peace treaty with the Mamluks, which was concluded in 1322 by khan Abu Said." in "Histoire des Croisades", p.468). Regards. PHG (talk) 17:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: More quotes

message: Due to threats and false accusations of harassment (which is the norm with some of these editors), I'm withdrawring myself from this Alliance affair. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 01:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Withdrawing from this Alliance affair 

message: Since this page is seeing quite a lot of traffic, and is up to 184K, could we set up an automatic bot or regular schedule of archiving? Yeah, I know I've contributed to a lot of those characters .. but dang, the talk page is almost as long as one form of the article, and definitely longer than it currently stands. Thanks. Ealdgyth | Talk 06:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup, I'll go ahead and archive again. You're right, it's been pretty busy lately!  :) --Elonka 07:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for archiving

message: (starting new subthread)
Fair enough. What I recommend is that we make a list of sources by category, so that we know what to prune and what to keep:
* A: Sources that we're all in agreement are "solid", meaning they're modern academic sources that everyone agrees are reputable
** (partial list) Peter Jackson, Angus Donal Stewart, Sylvia Schein, David Morgan, Christopher Tyerman, David Nicolle, Jean Richard, Malcolm Barber, Reuven Amitai-Preiss
* B: Solid academic sources for their time period, but are since outdated and should be updated to modern sources if possible:
** René Grousset  (1930s), Steven Runciman (1950s)
* C: Sources that were written for mass market, were written in a highly speculative manner, and/or are not well footnoted, and should be either removed or used with great caution
** Laurent Dailliez (1970s), Amin Maalouf, Jack Weatherford, Alain Demurger, David Wilkinson
* D: Tertiary sources, which are acceptable, but should be updated to secondary sources where possible:
** Encyclopædia Iranica 
I haven't listed every source here, just some of the ones that we're either using extensively, or are being used to source controversial information. It's my recommendation that we concentrate on looking for information sourced to "B" and "C" categories, and either updating the information to better sources, or removing the information entirely.
Does that sound reasonable? And if anyone else wishes to question a source, please bring it up here. For example, which category would Richard Foltz's Religions of the Silk Road fall into? --Elonka 20:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't actually seen the Oldenburg book that is in the long version, but she's usually a mass market writer. I have her Massacre at Montsegur, and is not "scholarly". I'd put Payne in that category also. Tuchman, if we used her, or Seward or Weir are others of that category. Great reading, not so great to use as a citation in a scholarly work. Ealdgyth | Talk 20:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Reliable sources

message: Just a few quick questions, nothing contentious, more stylistic/prose tweaking:
* Papal overtures section. Did Innocent IV issue more than one bull? Or just one?
* Same section, "Innocent sent another mission, through another route, led by..." is the "through another route vital? Otherwise it just seems like fluff in the article.
* I removed the bit about the "Nestorian Christian princesses"... changed it to "had Nestorian Christians among them"
Also, should we be doing ." or ". with our punctuation? It seems rather inconsistent to me so far. Nothing I saw in those two sections screamed "wrong" to me. Ealdgyth | Talk 01:17, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: According to List of papal bulls, Innocent IV issued multiple documents. On punctuation, I normally use ." with sentence quotes, and ". when just putting quotes around a single word or term, as described in the MoS at WP:PUNC.  The other suggestions look fine to me, and/or I can go either way, so do what you think is best.  :) --Elonka 03:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm.. but did he issue multiple bulls on the subject of the embassy? My experience with papal bulls has been they issue one per subject. Of course that's for a time frame over a 100 years before this, so I could be wrong. And that list shows bulls in 1247, 1252 and 1254, but none in 1245. The 1252 one is for the Inquisition, authorizing torture. Hm.. wonder what the others listed there are for. Anyway, the source there is Richard, and I note that this sentence is in both the long version and the short version of the article. Maybe we'd better double check the reference. The list of bulls could be off, but it'd be nice to be able to update it if Richard gives a name for the 1245 bull. I'll go dig on the shelves. The books I ordered shipped (except the God's War, it's backordered, drat it!) so hopefully we'll all be on the same source page soon. Ealdgyth | Talk 03:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okies. Is the text of the 1247 bull, it has to with the rule of Mount Carmel (not sure where it's located, but it's clear it's not Mongol related). JSTOR Article which I'll get tomorrow, you can count on it. Translation of 1252 Bull which is the one about torture, Bit about Papal bulls on the treatment of Jews that briefly mentions Innocent and some bulls. (Very intersting article, btw) List of some bulls relating to Scotland has two bulls of Innocent, Information on the Council of Lyons which gives the decrees of the council (handy!), Papal Encyclicals and Councils more listings, including council decrees, and Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Innocent IV. Heh, I got a bit long winded. (Big surprise). Some of those sites are pretty nice, well worth bookmarking for later.Ealdgyth | Talk 04:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The JSTOR article lists six bulls for 1245 and another either 1244 or 1245. Only two were issued post-Lyon (July and August). Only the 17 July bull Ad apostolicae dignitatis, which excommunicated Frederick II looks like it may have even the slightest bearing on Mongol relations, but none of my online searches reveal one. Srnec (talk) 06:21, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ah, I see where you're going with this.  Yes, multiple Mongol-related bulls were issued, including two in March 1245 by Pope Innocent, Dei patris immensa (waxing on Christianity, and urging Mongols to accept baptism), and Cum non solum, an appeal to the Mongols to stop attacking Christians.  Pope Innocent expressed a desire for peace in the second one, but according to Peter Jackson, Innocent may have been unaware that the Mongols didn't really have a word for "peace".  Their word for "peace" was the same as the word for "submission"!  I've added both bulls (and a few others that I'm finding in Jackson's book) to List of papal bulls.  If you need more info, let me know.  :) --Elonka 06:35, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Beware historians getting lost in the details! Yeah, looks good. I like the tidbit about the Mongols not having a word for peace, that should probably go in the article somewhere. I'll see what else I pull from JSTOR tomorrow, I've finally gotten a real librarian to speak with me, and have permission to acquire all the articles I want, so tomorrow while all the college kids are off drinking and sleeping, I'll be buried in the library. Any subjects that I should plug in besides the obvious "Mongol" "Crusaders" "Diplomatic relations" "Innocent IV" etc.? Ealdgyth | Talk 06:56, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, confirm for yourself if or how much Mongol presence (if any) was in Jerusalem in the latter half of the 13th century, as that has been an important issue to PHG.  Also, check anything you can find on Cicilian Armenia (under Hetoum I, also spelled Hethoum, Haithon, Hayton, Het'um, etc.) to get a sense for yourself whether he "allied" with the Mongols or submitted. And, since you're really good at researching sources and determining which ones are most reliable, it would be a good idea to get a sense of the authors such as Alain Demurger and Laurent Dailliez, since we have had disagreement on how much those two can be used for controversial claims that are not backed up by other historians.  So if you can track down a copy of Dailliez's Les Templiers (1970s editions) to see them for yourself, that could be helpful.  :)  Check out the discussions at Talk:Laurent_Dailliez for more.  And good luck!  :) --Elonka 09:42, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

text: In your libraries defense: JSTOR is not cheap at all (multi thousand $ a year), and not many people go to local libraries for old scholarly papers; good luck finding the relevant ones. Arnoutf (talk) 23:33, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This isn't my local public library. This is a well known regional university library. Liberal arts in fact. I would HATE to be a history professor there, trying to publish or perish (grins). But they do have some so I gathered a couple of articles (65 in fact, but most aren't on the Mongols). Now to get them processed from the .gifs to something readable... ugh. Ealdgyth | Talk 00:05, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Even university libraries can't afford everything (my University has subscriptions with Elsevier for about 1 million Euro a year which obviously covers only Elsevier journal; and that is only one of the publishers they have subscriptions from...... For the academic staff member the trick is to lobby for the journals you really need and buy the single papers (about 20$ in general) when needed. Sounds expensive; and I agree it is, but often cheaper then having the whole bunch. But I think this is getting a bit off-topic;I have no access to all these sources either so dropped out of this article long ago. Good luck. Arnoutf (talk) 00:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you need anything from Speculum I have JSTOR access for 1926-2002; for JMH I have the whole thing (1975-2007). For JEH I can apparently access only 1999-2007; I'm sure I've used older volumes online in the past but maybe it changed. (Also, if you need anything from the past 7 volumes of Speculum they are handily on my shelf, although I don't think there is anything in them about the Montols.) Adam Bishop (talk) 12:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Early contact and Papal overtures sections