Talk:Click consonant

message: only word-initial clicks: Not true. Xhosa and Zulu have lots of words with clicks in the middle, such as iqaqa (some stinky mustelid), uqhoqhoqho(Z)/uqhoqhoqha(Xh) (larynx), and esanqoba.
I believe it says that no initial OR FINAL clicks. Since isiZulu and isiXhosa are Bantu languages, all words end either in a vowel or in a nasal consonant, not clicks.
: Be bold, go correct those errors! :) Dysprosia 10:04, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  word-initial 

message: Would it be possible for anyone to include a sound samples of these click consonants? I have read Manner_of_articulation, but as a north-american, I must say I am utterly incapable of following these instructions to make any sort of sound.
UnHoly 23:22, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There are samples on bilabial click, dental click, alveolar lateral click, palatal click, and postalveolar click. They are produced by Peter Ladefoged, who deserves a page if he doesn't have one. Nohat 00:09, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  That helped a lot! Thanks. UnHoly 04:51, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There are also sound samples at the external link of ‡Hõã. kwami 04:20, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  sound samples 

message: I am a South African and have never heard of a Southern African language called yeyi.  If no one gets back to us soon I suggest we remove the listing.
:Who said it was South African? Yeyi is spoken by about half an ethnic group of 50,000 in Botswana. 66.27.205.12 04:24, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Yeyi

message: I had added ‡Hõã some time ago, but my source was not very reliable. (It might not even be the right language!) Can anyone verify? If not, we should probably delete these entries. Seems a shame, though. kwami 21:58, 2005 August 31 (UTC)
:Confirmed, with a few corrections. kwami 03:47, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  ‡Hõã 

message: any info on the origins of click consonants? It seems clear how many consonants in many languages are formed, and how they all are related to easy sounds for a baby to make, "b, p, m, d, t, n, g, k, ng" but how do clicks originate? I've noted among the nonsense cooing of babies some clicks happen, but how were these transferred into language? Does the world proto-language include clicks? How did they arise? etc. etc. Could they be evidence of language evolving indepedently in different parts of the world? --ChadThomson 05:20, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No one knows. However, it seems likely that they're related to doubly articulated consonants. Labial-velars, for example, are easily transformed into implosives (if voiced) and ejectives (if voiceles), so a new airstream mechanism isn't necessarily problematic. In several languages, lateral clicks are easily confused with lateral affricates. kwami 22:18, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Origins

message: So clicks are represented in IPA like this, and in ASCII renderings of IPA like that, but how do the respective languages' orthographies deal with clicks? I guess most, if not all of them use the Latin alphabet when written, and this would have to have been innovated since the Romans didn't use clicks. My non–South African layman's impression is that the Bantu languages featuring clicks tend to use Latin letters like Q or C, or digraphs as in 'Xhosa', while Khoisan languages tend to use (in addition, since they have more clicks?) 'letters' like //, !, ', etc. (Is // a letter or a digraph? A ligature? How are these strange glyphs collated, eg in a Namibian phone book?) Could anyone enlighten me and other readers on this subject?
:Good question about Namibian phonebooks. I don't know if there are even entries for these symbols. That's worth checking out. Most of the collation I've seen either places them at the beginning of the alphabet, or ignores them and collates according to the first Latin letter. 
:Few Khoisan languages are written on a regular basis. Nama is, and I believe Sandawe might be as well (I've heard elementary education is conducted in Sandawe), but I think that's about it. Nama at least uses the | || ! # system. || is not a digraph, but a separate letter, although it might have originally been iconically bipartite, representing the two sides. (! was originally | with the retroflex underdot diacritic; and the horizontal lines of the # might have indicated the palate?) The IPA came up with a separate set of symbols, more in keeping with the Latin alphabet, but reverted because the | || ! # system is nearly universal among Khoisanists and Khoisan literature. Bantu, of course, is restricted to the Latin alphabet for clicks. I don't think Yeyi is written, and I believe that is the only Bantu language with the palatal click. kwami 23:28, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Orthographies

message: Aren't we lucky not to have to use click consonants in everyday speech? They sound hard. 203.167.171.81 09:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you had them and learned them since childhood, you wouldn't find them any more difficult than, say, [k] or . — N-true 12:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, maybe a little harder to learn than [k] or , but easier than [θ] or [r] - kids pick them up by the age of three. kwami 01:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

text: (Actually, 2-year-olds can differentiate various clicks before they can pronounce [s]! kwami 08:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Click consonants in English 

message: I don't know if I'll have time to revise this page based on new research into the Nǀu language. See that page and Velaric ingressive for what I think needs doing. kwami 01:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Revision needed

message: From the article: 'in Persian a click accompanied by tipping the head upwards signifies "no".'
Tipping the head upwards is the gesture used for "no" in Greece as well. My Greek teacher would tut as she did this - I don't know whether it was her habit (maybe showing disapproval that we, her students, had made a mistake) or if it is widespread in Greece (I don't remember hearing it when I've been in Greece), but, if the latter, possibly this is used elsewhere in (or maybe even throughout) south-eastern Europe and the Middle East. Is there any evidence for this? — Paul G 07:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An isolated dental click for 'no' is pretty common in the region. kwami 08:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Click consonants used to mean "no" 

message: I'm taking some guidance from WP:CITE. The style is chatty, not right for an academic presentation. Several assertions are dubious. There is redundancy. There is excess detail. The edits I just made just scratch the surface. Hurmata (talk) 08:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please bring up dubious assertions here rather than just deleting them. Most are defensible. kwami (talk) 09:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Starting to provide references; major rewrite

message: Actually, about there being no evidence to support that clicks are ancient sounds, I found an article in the New York Times called "In Click Languages, an Echo of the Tongues of the Ancients" by Nicholas Wade on March 18, 2003, which says click sounds may be some of the oldest sounds in languages. Perhaps the ideas expressed there are significant enough to warrant noting on the article page? Captain Gamma (talk) 01:16, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a common myth. Clicks are found in primitive languages, so they must be primitive too. We know the languages are primitive, because they're spoken by primitive people. Etc. It makes about as much sense as recent BBC reports that Aka-Bo was one of the world's oldest languages, a completely meaningless statement. kwami (talk) 01:21, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This presumes quite a bit about evolution, and that all humans came from Africa. Therefore the argument is pointless, and I would be willing to bet that someone who says this is a new feature is a non-evolutionist, while those who think humans who migrated from Africa think this is an old feature that most other languages have lost, albeit just at point while leaving Africa. This conjecture ("Actually, about there being no evidence to support that clicks are ancient sound...") is pointless at best, and needs to be removed, because of its extreme level of speculation about taboo subjects. --Ryandward (talk) 15:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: All humans did come from Africa, but that's much too long ago to be relevant. kwami (talk) 06:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Click's origins 

message: While what the article currently says is true (click consonants aren't difficult to produce; children pick them up, etc.), I believe the real difficulty with clicks isn't producing them in isolation, but producing them as consonants in between vowels in the regular flow of speech. I wasn't sure if this needed a source to be added, but I feel it's relevant to the Difficulty section. 76.167.253.199 (talk) 21:56, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, that wasn't clear. It is clear in the citation (a clause with both a /ǁ/ and a /s/ in it, the latter mispronounced as /tʃ/). — kwami (talk) 05:15, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Difficulty 

message: In the Competing orthographies table in the Transcription section, the character  (U+F211) is used for Doke's bilabial click symbol. That character is non standard PUA and it probably not in most people's system fonts.  added this character in a modification on 6 May 2008 --Moyogo/ (talk) 18:07, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It's in SIL fonts, which are common for readers who use IPA.  I doubt most non-IPA people would be all that interested.  Can you suggest a better solution?  — kwami (talk) 18:25, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: My browser doesn't display it. --JorisvS (talk) 18:30, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I have some SIL fonts installed (Charis SIL, Doulos SIL, Gentium Plus, etc.) I don't see anything for . --Moyogo/ (talk) 19:28, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Mine doesn't display it on this page, but does in the article, where the font is specified.  Which browser are you using?  — kwami (talk) 19:39, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: My Chrome neither displays it here, nor in the article. --JorisvS (talk) 19:41, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

text: That's right. --JorisvS (talk) 19:44, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I asked at Template_talk:IPA.  Maybe you can give the details there.  — kwami (talk) 20:06, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I will, if I know what details to provide. --JorisvS (talk) 20:09, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, are you on a Mac?  I don't think the template does anything for Macs.  etc.  If they have questions.  — kwami (talk) 20:27, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Windows 8. And my computer using Windows 7 does not display anything either. Trying Firefox or Internet Explorer does not make it work. Chrome gives white blocks, whereas Firefox gives a block with the text F2 11 in two rows and Internet Explorer white blocks without a border, regardless of the version of Windows. --JorisvS (talk) 20:49, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: What symbol is this supposed to be anyway? I don't think using PUA is a good idea. I’d rather use graphics.  --Moyogo/ (talk) 18:56, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

text: Above, they still do not display, but the current symbol in the article, /ɋ/, does display for me. --JorisvS (talk) 07:54, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doke's bilabial symbol is not in Unicode 

message: Doke's symbol for the palatal doesn't show for me. What does it look like? And maybe it is a good idea to include an image. --JorisvS (talk) 07:54, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Doke's palatal doesn't show up