Talk:Public administration

message: what is public administration? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.206.247.252 (talk) 10:52, 29 June 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There are boundaries that are problematic in the study of government, governance, politics, and bureaucracy.  Public administration is a term of convenience to address these contested areas.  It used to mean the study of government bureaucracy.  In my opinion, such a usage is now obsolete...at least highly contested. Ryan Lanham 00:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Public management is no different than private.  Hmmm.  Profit?  Public good?  Seems different to me.  Ryan Lanham 20:49, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  untitled comments 

message: Dropping the list.  Every person ever elected to public office, or assuming it through other means, in the history of mankind could go on the list.  List is therefore silly.  -James Howard (talk/web) 22:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it's referring to scholars, not administrators themselves. But I agree that the list should be dropped. ChrisKennedy(talk) 17:25, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I am not familiar with this field, but as a general principle I think it is better if people (and institutions) are mentioned in context rather than just listed. For a list, one would at least want years of birth and death and some brief description of what people have done to make them important. Uppland 21:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Some Notable Public Administrators (in alphabetical order) is silly

message: How about moving the list to its own page? Perhaps mentioning the really significant institutions in the text, and in the context of the development of the discipline and various schools of thought, would be better than a complete list right here. BTW, aren't there some "doctorate-granting institutions in public administration or public policy" outside the United States? Uppland 17:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it even needs its own page given that a category for schools of public administration already exists :Category:Public_administration_schools - ChrisKennedy(talk) 19:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That will only work where the programme in public administration is actually organized as its own "school" rather than just being part of a university faculty of Social sciences or Law. We can't possibly add every university to every possible category that corresponds to every single one of its programmes of education. Uppland 20:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Institutions

message: I don't know who, but there were a bunch of "I.P. Freely" type "funny names" in the list of scholars. That is vandalism. Ticks me off. Everyone keep an eye on this one, to make sure it doesn't happen again. Ilikenwf 18:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: Good day. I've noticed what seems to be an academic bias to the page. For example, the writing on the history of PA begins with Ancient Greek, etc. thinkers - yet I'm pretty sure that PA existed before this time (i.e. civilization did not begin w/ the ancient Greeks). Why does the "hisotry of PA" section not start with the history of PA?  Also, what is a "pre-generation"? This is nonsensical except perhaps to academics. Fianlly, the page began by describing PA as the "study and implementation of government policy...". I've corrected this to read "implementation and study...". The purpose of PA is not academic - it is implementation. Am I off the mark of does anyone else agree?  Thanks, Hu Gadarn 15:44, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Academic bias to page? 

message: The opening paragraph on public administration is problematic. Public administration is about much more that 'policy'.  In the second sentence, what does 'linked' mean?  This sentence also has a contestable implication - that public admin contributes to the public good. Many critical theorists would disagree or claim the story is much more complex. The final sentence suggests that NGOs may be included within the ambit of public admin if they are not motivated by self interest.  If one accepts the assumptions public choice theory, then conventional governmental agencies are also motivated by self interest - are they excluded from the public admin category?  This is a strange criterion on which to determine membership of this category.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.104.236.96 (talk) 00:39, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening summary 

message: * Yes - the list adds no value. This is an article about Public Adminsitration, not the teachiong of public administration, not academics interested in PA, but PA itself. Delete list. Thanks, Hu Gadarn (talk) 16:02, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed removal of list of academics 

message: Is the "six generations" breakdown of the history of Public Administration something which is broadly used? If so it needs to be cited; if not, it would seem to be classifiable as original research, or at least NPOV. babbage (talk) 04:55, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But even if it were substantiated, it's presented in the article as if it "were" public administration, or as if it had some sort of widespread acceptance throughout the discipline. I've just read a bit on the field, so I'm completely unqualified to try to change the article; but it seems to me that anyone who read this article as-is would come away with a very biased understanding. babbage (talk) 23:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  six "generations 

message: The usual standard in Wikipedia entries is to include the critique of the exposed subject matter or point of view. In the case of public administration – and especially the modern variation to the theme, NPA – is astonishingly absent. This should be corrected, especially since NPA has proved far less successful in practice than its proponents tend to admit. ˜˜˜˜  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.72.197.47 (talk) 15:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  critique of NPA 

message: Hi, I have no objection to sections that sit empty for a few days while an editor is adding material, but these have been empty for weeks, even months.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 22:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relocate empty sections here 

message: Unlike what everyone under 25 would like to think...paper is alive and well. Yes, unreliable but true paper is still being used in even regular offices. Nobody has their full office on their crackkberry yet
"Even in the digital age, public servants tend to work with both paper documents and computer files (pictured here is Stephen C. Dunn, Deputy Comptroller for the US Navy"Starbwoy (talk) 22:05, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Silly and wordy photo caption

message: # The photographs currently on this article currently leave much to be desired.
# I just removed this caption as non-neutral: "Even in the digital age, public servants tend to work with both paper documents and computer files"Andrew (talk) 19:31, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photographs and POV 

message: ===Untitled===
made some minor edits. Still think it goes on too long about international monetary system. 71.87.179.156 01:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  While I am not totally unsympathetic to some of the author's contentions (specifically, wealthy and powerful business interests corrupting democratic governance), I haven't seen an entry this severely POV in a while.  Worse yet, much of it bears little actual relevance to the actual topic at hand!  This article needs a major overhaul. --Eastlaw talk ⁄ contribs 07:00, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

text: There being none, will proceed with straight forward merge of all the front and back content here as last 1st level § in the merge target. Will deploy to mainspace when complete. Lycurgus (talk) 13:58, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: From Public Management Merge

message: made some minor edits. Still think it goes on too long about international monetary system. 71.87.179.156 01:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I removed most of the sections that bore little relation to the topic of "Public Management". Criticisms of fractional reserve banking, international capitalism, transnationalism, central banking, corporations or democracy belongs on other pages, not this one. Given that the great majority of the page was this unrelated "criticism", it seems there was very little directly related to the presumptive topic of the page, and needs fleshing out. PJayC (talk) 00:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  While I am not totally unsympathetic to some of the author's contentions (specifically, wealthy and powerful business interests corrupting democratic governance), I haven't seen an entry this severely POV in a while.  Worse yet, much of it bears little actual relevance to the actual topic at hand!  This article needs a major overhaul. --Eastlaw talk ⁄ contribs 07:00, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Severe NPOV 

message: This article is hopeless in its current state and seems to have been more or less like this for a while (although much of the more egregious parts of the entry have been removed or modified). Perhaps there could be a collective effort to revise this with a concentration on important theorists such as Herbert Simon.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.247.161 (talk) 03:36, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hopeless 

message: I removed a long section that just seemed to POV to be fixed other than by rewriting.  To see the prev version check the history at .  This now gives us a short article that can be expanded and a long list of references. And I removed the POV and clenaup tags.  RJFJR (talk) 20:57, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Chopped

message: ... I will redact and merge this into Public Administration as the same-named § after a suitable period. Lycurgus (talk) 08:41, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: There being none, will proceed with straight forward merge of all the front and back content here as last 1st level § in the merge target. Will deploy to mainspace when complete. Lycurgus (talk) 13:58, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  if there are no objections ... 

message: Completed without loss of content, requested grammar redact performed. Lycurgus (talk) 04:21, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: I removed this unreferenced list and put it here on the talk page, so we can discuss what to do with it. Right now it appears to contain some original research. The goal of Wikipedia is not to create indiscriminate lists of ideas (see WP:NOT). If this was an official list from a public administration textbook, great, but there are no citations. In my view, the best thing to do with this list is to make sure that the pertinent list members are covered in the article. Public management is discussed in several sections, as is the "business or market systems" approach. I think public choice is covered in the article.OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 02:59, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relocate unreferenced list to here, for discussion 

message: -Comprehension: The opening paragraph explains the premise of the article very well, but it is explained in a rather odd fashion, and semi-hard to comprehend and fully understand. The term "Public Administration" in its self is somewhat difficult to explain, but I think there is a solid base for the start of the page.
-Readability: As stated before, the article is fairly hard to understand, and I feel as though there could be a better organized revised edition that could be cultivated. There is also an abundance of information that is truly not necessary, though relevant, it could use a different page for several headings. 
-Ease of Comprehension: The article in general is understandable, but it could be more so. Simplified phrases, words, and categories could easily be replaced from the complicated and complicated text. 
Question 1: I enjoyed the pictures of Woodrow Wilson and facts stated, the page has a lot of relevant information.
Question 2: I feel as though the information could be shown in a more feasible way, and take off some information that is a bit more lengthy and less relevant.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crc151 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Review

message: Contained are the Sources for consideration in expanding section 5.1 Comparative public administration. L g219 (talk) 20:36, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  5.1 Comparative Public Administration //Sources for consideration 

message: This subsection is overall extremely helpful and informational.  There are however a few mechanical and structural errors that would make it even better and less "blocky" so to speak.  Right now, it is an overwhelming section to read because it is a ton of information being thrown into long paragraphs. To enhance this subsection, I recommend using block quotations for those that are lengthy and of higher importance (ex. Woodrow Wilson's quote). There are also a few very minor grammatical errors such as capitalization errors, the use of comma splices (which when addressed can help with the unnecessary length), and other minor grammatical errors. I would recommend browsing through again to address these issues.  
The first two sources are also inactive. [39] and [40]. I would reexamine and fix this error to create further ease in accessing those links. 
Overall, very great, detailed, and well developed.
-Alicia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorado alicia25 (talk • contribs) 05:40, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Comparative Public Administration

message: I threw in a mention, remove it if you don't think it belongs.FourLights (talk) 23:38, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  early Chinese administration 

message: I do not think that a list of institutions teaching/studying PA should be part of a Wikipedia article... There are other websites for this. This is especially true for this very subjective and cherry-picked list. There are so many institutes and universities missing that I do not even know why someone thought to put the list up in the first place. For example in Germany there is also the Faculty of Politics and Public Administration in the University of Konstanz, but also faculties of "state science" (basically Public Administration) in the Universities of Erfurt and Passau. In Switzerland there is a section for Public Administration in Sankt Gallen and Turkey, for example, is completely missing with many universities offering some kind of public administration departments (like for example in the Marmara University in Istanbul with their department for Politics and Public Administration). I would strongly advice you to just delete this section... 213.193.232.58 (talk) 12:05, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Institutions teaching PA 

message: Old Public Administration is rooted in political science studies and deals with a unitary view of state in which policy making and implementation are managed by the central government through a bureaucratic model. It assumes the model as effective by natures since prescribed by the law. Dara Regine (talk) 07:09, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  OLD PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION 

message: I admit that I am a million years old and that slightly less than a million years ago, my teachers in middle and high school taught us grammar, diction, and basic rules of structure and style.  We were shown, then drilled, quizzed and tested, and finally held to a simple standard: is what you are about to submit the result of your best efforts to communicate effectively?  This article fails that standard, and miserably.
As others have observed, much of the detailed minutiae presented in the main essay would be better placed in footnotes or even separate articles.  More egregious stylistically is the author's inability to end his fucking sentences.  Even slow step-children recognize that a 215 word paragraph comprising a single sentence is shoddy writing.  When a piece's style distracts rather than enhances, it is doomed beyond retrieval. 
*****
There is no good writing, only good re-writing.  Failure to ruthlessly self-edit indicates intellectual laziness and time-consuming nonchalance.  
Peace from Los Angeles. 2603:8001:30F0:7CB0:11D9:7967:666F:867C (talk) 21:20, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, yes I agree. I'm new here and have sought to correct this. Your feedback is appreciated and feel free to contribute your talents to the article. Drocj (talk) 07:45, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  No self-editing skills whatsoever? 

message: public administration is a political process but then how can they be differentiated 2405:204:3390:F788:0:0:210B:30B1 (talk) 11:26, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Public administration and political administration difference and similarities 

message: Public and its Administration, Administration of the public considerably field by which leaders attains to serve their communities (respectively) to advance the common good and effect positive change. Therefore, public administration professional who are expected to come from this field are provided with the skills to manage and serve at all levels of the government be it local, regional, or national  combining the Non-profit organizations. INVISIBLYBROKE (talk) 05:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Public Administration 

message: Public administration history is ancient. In ancient Greece and Egypt, prominent officeholders were responsible for justice, law and order, and plenty. The Romans established administrative hierarchies for law, military, finance and taxation, foreign affairs, and home affairs, each with its own chief executives. This complicated the arrangement. The Roman Catholic Church copied the Roman Empire's complicated administration. Superiors reported to the emperor. After the Western Roman Empire collapsed in the fifth century, the eastern Byzantine Empire, whose civil service authority was derogatorily called "Byzantinism," maintained many of its norms.
Medieval royal families created early European governments. Until the 12th century, numerous royal household officials had the same job. The exceptions were butler, steward, chamberlain, and chancellor, who wrote and applied the monarch's seal. The royal household's domestic and state-related activities were separated in the 13th century. Traditional household jobs disappeared, became sinecures, or lost relevance. The royal chamberlain's office, which was constantly engaged in state matters and survived to become the most important link between ancient court offices and present ministries, may have been the origin of the modern treasury or finance ministry.
The high court, exchequer, and collegial royal council began to manage state matters in the middle of the 13th century. England and France did not form such organizations until the early part of the 14 century. They didn't become independent political entities until the beginning of the 17th century in Brandenburg, which was ruled by an elector (a prince with the right to pick the Holy Roman emperor) and became the Prussian state.
European ministerial institutions developed from royal councils, powerful groupings of nobles appointed by the monarch. These strong noble councils preceded the justice and finance departments, which originated in old court offices. These organizations' separation of labour created Europe's first professional public officials, the monarchs' secretaries. Due to their proximity to the monarch and relative stability, the secretaries had a greater knowledge of the king's goals and more expertise with state issues than the council's more transient aristocracy. Staff assisted them. Secretaries acquired importance in the 15th and 16th centuries since they resembled full council members.
Geography initially determined secretaries' duties. England's regional allocation—with a secretary of the North and a secretary of the South—persisted until 1782, when home and foreign secretaries were created. By 1789, secretaries of state were shifting from geographical to functional roles.
China's Tang (618-907) and Sung (960-1279) dynasties created the longest-lasting civil service in history. It was established with a centralized administration during the Han dynasty (206 BCE-220 CE) (960–1279). It lasted until 1912. Sung-era civil service tests became comprehensive. Three layers of written exams eliminated applicants, with over 100 persons beginning the process for each pass. Although there was a strong focus on the Chinese Classics (because it was believed that familiarity with them helped develop a good citizen's virtues), there was also an effort to create objective and insightful tests for practical abilities, and there were persistent disagreements over the test's subject and methodology. To safeguard candidate anonymity and for unbiased grading, clerks duplicated test papers, applicants were identified only by number, and three examiners assessed each paper. Due to the promotion system's focus on test scores, yearly merit ratings, and the habit of employing numerous lower-level officials from the clerical service, junior relatives might be nominated for bureaucratic positions.
Public administrators collaborate with municipalities to improve society. Public administrators handle nonprofits and all levels of government (local, state, and federal). Public administration uses project and program management, which may be applied to business.
Public administration implements government policies. Today, public administration is thought to influence government policies and efforts. Government acts are planned, organized, directed, coordinated, and supervised.
All governments have public administration. Countries have national, regional, and municipal public administration. Public management is increasingly challenged by intergovernmental relations.
Due to highly trained administrative, executive, and directing courses, public administration has become a distinctive career in most countries. "Civil service" usually refers to public administrators. Since the early 20th century, Americans have recognized public servants as professionals and valued their skills.
Unlike the civil service, the military, courts, and police are full-time state agencies. Scientific or professional civil services give technological aid rather than administrative assistance. Most governments distinguish between civil servants at home and diplomats abroad. Civil servants oversee the state's internal affairs without being political, ministerial, military, or law enforcement.
Most countries exclude local government and public corporations from the civil service. In unitary administrations, province staffs are civil servants. US federal, state, and local governments have civil services, which are public jobs with permanent tenure that are entered via examination. 2001:FD8:6A0:2182:2C21:C1E:1CD5:F7D2 (talk) 04:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 06:08, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 28 January 2023 

message: 
Public administration history is ancient. In ancient Greece and Egypt, prominent officeholders were responsible for justice, law and order, and plenty. The Romans established administrative hierarchies for law, military, finance and taxation, foreign affairs, and home affairs, each with its own chief executives. This complicated the arrangement. The Roman Catholic Church copied the Roman Empire's complicated administration. Superiors reported to the emperor. After the Western Roman Empire collapsed in the fifth century, the eastern Byzantine Empire, whose civil service authority was derogatorily called "Byzantinism," maintained many of its norms.
Medieval royal families created early European governments. Until the 12th century, numerous royal household officials had the same job. The exceptions were butler, steward, chamberlain, and chancellor, who wrote and applied the monarch's seal. The royal household's domestic and state-related activities were separated in the 13th century. Traditional household jobs disappeared, became sinecures, or lost relevance. The royal chamberlain's office, which was constantly engaged in state matters and survived to become the most important link between ancient court offices and present ministries, may have been the origin of the modern treasury or finance ministry.
The high court, exchequer, and collegial royal council began to manage state matters in the middle of the 13th century. England and France did not form such organizations until the early part of the 14 century. They didn't become independent political entities until the beginning of the 17th century in Brandenburg, which was ruled by an elector (a prince with the right to pick the Holy Roman emperor) and became the Prussian state.
European ministerial institutions developed from royal councils, powerful groupings of nobles appointed by the monarch. These strong noble councils preceded the justice and finance departments, which originated in old court offices. These organizations' separation of labour created Europe's first professional public officials, the monarchs' secretaries. Due to their proximity to the monarch and relative stability, the secretaries had a greater knowledge of the king's goals and more expertise with state issues than the council's more transient aristocracy. Staff assisted them. Secretaries acquired importance in the 15th and 16th centuries since they resembled full council members.
Geography initially determined secretaries' duties. England's regional allocation—with a secretary of the North and a secretary of the South—persisted until 1782, when home and foreign secretaries were created. By 1789, secretaries of state were shifting from geographical to functional roles.
China's Tang (618-907) and Sung (960-1279) dynasties created the longest-lasting civil service in history. It was established with a centralized administration during the Han dynasty (206 BCE-220 CE) (960–1279). It lasted until 1912. Sung-era civil service tests became comprehensive. Three layers of written exams eliminated applicants, with over 100 persons beginning the process for each pass. Although there was a strong focus on the Chinese Classics (because it was believed that familiarity with them helped develop a good citizen's virtues), there was also an effort to create objective and insightful tests for practical abilities, and there were persistent disagreements over the test's subject and methodology. To safeguard candidate anonymity and for unbiased grading, clerks duplicated test papers, applicants were identified only by number, and three examiners assessed each paper. Due to the promotion system's focus on test scores, yearly merit ratings, and the habit of employing numerous lower-level officials from the clerical service, junior relatives might be nominated for bureaucratic positions.
Public administrators collaborate with municipalities to improve society. Public administrators handle nonprofits and all levels of government (local, state, and federal). Public administration uses project and program management, which may be applied to business.
Public administration implements government policies. Today, public administration is thought to influence government policies and efforts. Government acts are planned, organized, directed, coordinated, and supervised.
All governments have public administration. Countries have national, regional, and municipal public administration. Public management is increasingly challenged by intergovernmental relations.
Due to highly trained administrative, executive, and directing courses, public administration has become a distinctive career in most countries. "Civil service" usually refers to public administrators. Since the early 20th century, Americans have recognized public servants as professionals and valued their skills.
Unlike the civil service, the military, courts, and police are full-time state agencies. Scientific or professional civil services give technological aid rather than administrative assistance. Most governments distinguish between civil servants at home and diplomats abroad. Civil servants oversee the state's internal affairs without being political, ministerial, military, or law enforcement.
Most countries exclude local government and public corporations from the civil service. In unitary administrations, province staffs are civil servants. US federal, state, and local governments have civil services, which are public jobs with permanent tenure that are entered via examination. Ashierbenz (talk) 01:19, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate Drocj (talk) 07:41, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 29 January 2023 

message: The history section has already been flagged as being heavily US-weighted, and the US section seems to be twice as long as the rest of the section. I feel it would be more useful to create a dedicated article for "Public administration in the United States" as there is an incredible amount of detail put into the US-specific information that completely overshadows the general information and honestly makes it a pain to read for a general reader not interested in US-specific information. Wind Orange (talk) 03:12, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separation of US content into a dedicated article