Talk:Armenian genocide/Archive 7

message: I don't see why we need to have the POV tag here. The article doesn't assert the views, all the disputed parts are labeled as "alleged," the article talks both about the Turkish and mainstream point of views--I suggest the POV be removed. If someone objects, they will need to make a good case.--TigranTheGreat 12:36, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it doesn't say what Turks allege Armenians did? We should then also put the other side of the story and then we can remove the POV.
Aren't all of the Armenian contributions to Ottoman civilization covered in the Ottoman Empire entires? (are these really just alleged contributions?) If not perhaps these need to be modified to properly reflect Armenian contributions first before we move on to just why Armenians became the victims of the dominant Ottoman Turkish elements of the society. Oh and BTW - only Turks (perhaps aided by some Kurds and Circassians and some Balkan and other various Turkics - commited Genocide [against Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians])...--THOTH 05:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

text: As I said previously, I don't take the responsability to remove it. This should be decided by the community by a vote. Fad (ix) 15:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: By the way, has anyone ever looked on the first photo at the article page?Hahah!If you look, you will see the Russian hats on the heads of Ottoman officers.
Look carefully.Have Ottomans ever used the hats like those?
Strange, apparently this website  about the Ottoman Empire does show pictures of those hats. Conspiracy perhaps??--MarshallBagramyan 18:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I am suspicious of that picture myself, I have removed it a while back I think, but it was reintroduced. The victims were probably either Russian Armenians soldiers serving for the Tsar or Russian soldiers, who had their uniforms taken off and their victors dressing of those uniforms as it was coutume there. I may be mistaken, but still I believe there are better references pictures to have this one included, I don't believe this picture represent victims of the genocide. Fad (ix) 23:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Hats on the photo''' 

message: A growing list of countries, as discussed below, have officially recognized and accepted its authenticity as Genocide.
:This should probably be reworded. I think the article is not particularly biased in content, however it is slightly biased in tone - I think that it could do with a copyedit by a more impartial user before removing the tag. If you want me to take this up I would be willing to attempt it, although as prior warning I have been accused of being Armenian! :) FrancisTyers 10:38, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like an idea.  Please post the rewording here first and then we can all be happy about it. Pschemp | Talk 18:16, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, I had a problem with this sentence myself. Fad (ix) 18:14, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Ask Fadix, he has invested much in the article--if he has no problem with it, neither do I. I am strongly against removing the word "denial" for the reaspons explained elsewhere, as are most editors here. Don't worry about being called Armenian--your neutral track record and reputation speaks for itself.--TigranTheGreat 09:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

text: No idea.  Well maybe because some people object to the use of that word, but it should either be a different word or take the quotes off. Pschemp | Talk 18:16, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The term is used in maps of the camps, including the Germans during the war as well as concentration camps books(I noted one such work in the footnote). I placed it in scare quotes because Coolcat would delete it so the scare quotes were left intact. Remove the quote if you think it should. Fad (ix) 18:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text:  Scare quotes are discouraged by Wiki guidelines much like weasel words (WP:AWW)--words like "claim, allege," which pretend to be neutral but contain hidden POV. We shouldn't  keep them just because someone keeps removing the entire phrase--NPOV is non-negotiable policy. They need to stay away.--TigranTheGreat 09:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

text: So far so good. Pschemp | Talk 06:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: The lack of citations is an issue of citing and not POV. I don't think the article needs to suffer from a glaring POV tag just because of that. I believe adding fact tags should suffice. Fadix is more knowledgable on this, but I believe "deportations" is the most common term used in literature with respect to the "displacements." Plus, it is somehow accurate, since we are talking about moving people from one part of a multi-part empire (Armenia, i.e. the homeland lf the people) to another part (Syria).--TigranTheGreat 19:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree that the citation is a matter of  and not , however the two are interlinked in some way, for example it is POV to say It is believed that most of these were soon executed, it is not POV to say Scholars at the Kyrgyz State Institute of Genocide Historians believe that most of these were soon executed (purely random example). The deportation thing doesn't really matter, just that whole paragraph is clunky. Although this is not necessarily a problem for the NPOV tag. Have you considered RfC'ing this to get other editors to look it over?  - FrancisTyers 19:34, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I copied in the version from my talk page and then reverted myself. My revision is here. I would encourage people to check it out and if they feel it is an improvement to merge the diffs. - FrancisTyers 17:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually if you look at the diffs, all of those were in my edited version :)) I reverted back to the previous version expecting that someone would disagree, I just wanted to leave my edited version in the history for people to compare. - FrancisTyers 11:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh silly me...I looked at the diff but the wrong way around. Sorry! It makes much more sense now. Pschemp | Talk 15:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't worry, I can see how it would be confusing :) - FrancisTyers 16:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes after removal of POV tag 

message: Even Hitler once said in reguards to the Jewish Holocaust, "Who remembers the Armenians?" It was to say that no one acknowledged it and he felt people would do the same for the Jewish question. This is wrong! This autrocity commited against Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians must be acknowledged. Turkey needs to cede territories stolen from Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians. They even discriminate against their own co-religionists, the Kurds. They are not immune to justice. They must make right the wrongs of the past to move forward in peace. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sargonious (talk • contribs) .
: Please stick to the content of the article. Fad (ix) 16:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How many genocides do you know which were not commited during an armed conflict or a war. Most genocides happened in armed conflicts, if a crime commited during wars or conflicts could not be termed as genocide most of the genocides currently considered as such would not have been the genocides they are said to be. Also, please both of you continue this discussion on your respective userspaces and stick to the content of the article. Fad (ix) 19:48, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I am sick of Turkey denying Christian masacres in Anatolia. 

message: "Although it is generally agreed that events said to comprise what is termed the Armenian Genocide did occur,..." seems a little bit awkward. Any ideas how to fix it?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.253.115.104 (talk • contribs) .
Perhaps it should go "Although many countries have recognized the events of 1915 to fall under the United Nation's definition of genocide, Turkey remains adamant and rejects the notion that the Young Turkish government had established a state-wide policy dedicated to the extermination of the Armenians" or somwhere along those lines. Although I agree, the sentence structure is poorly written. --MarshallBagramyan 06:04, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  awkward sentence 

message: There were more than 900 thousand Armenians who had been recorded as refugees
from Ottoman Empire and surviving WWI. What is called "estimates" above are based on a CLAIMED number of 2.5 million Ottoman Armenians being alive before WWI. After subtracting remaining (about) 1 million Armenians from the CLAIMED number of 2.5 Million Ottoman Armenians we are left with "1.5 million Armenians were killed". Turkey has never denied a large number of its Armenian population lost their lives, from all kinds of reasons including famine and murder. But, Turkey also dares to say, so did Turks and Kurds.
An excellent source on Ottoman Armenians, going through official Ottoman population records is a book by American historian Prof. Justin McCarthy, titled "Muslims and Minorities: The Population of Ottoman Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York, New York University Press, 1983. A summary can be found in (http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/yayinlar/yayin1/4-McCarty(65-85).pdf)
WWI ended in 1919, for Ottomans, when they surrendered. As you notice, the title of this section reads "1914 to 1923". Why 1923? Because the Armenian propagandists would love to extend their claimed sufferings until the foundation date of modern Turkish Republic (1923). This should be another example on how far the Armenian side can go by "playing with numbers."
Perhaps this could be rewritten and included, perhaps it should be moved to the denial page? - FrancisTyers 11:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think terms such as "Armenian propagandist" etc. fit in a Wikipedia article, also the claim of more than 900,000 is unfounded, McCarthys numbers which are considered to be overestimation find out 880,000 when the League of Nations figure of refugees in Soviet borders also included Armenians outside of the pre-war Ottoman borders, like those that left after the Alexandripole attacks, Kars and the other territories that the Ottoman penatrated and that the Armenians there were not Ottoman Armenians proper. Also, I just hope for the sake of Wikipedia that this AhmedCosar who registered is not this Ahmed Cosar the famous newsgroup spammer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmet_Cosar if that is so, we will have serious problems, and since he edited the other page about Ahmet Cosar, I'm afraid it may be him. Fad (ix) 16:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed pending rewrite 

message: Someone please tidy the archives. Today I:
* moved Armenian Genocide/Archive 6 to Talk:Armenian Genocide/Archive 16 - which was definitely a needed move, though the destination name may not be the preferred one
* restored talk:Armenian Genocide/Archive 6 from a blanked state - which may not have been necessary.
-- RHaworth 12:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: not sure what's going on here...I archived and thought that all the old ones had been merged into the existing ones so I should use the next blank exisiting archive (6).  Who did the archiving before and what is with all the blank ones?Pschemp | Talk 18:11, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, all fixed. Old archives had been merged already, got an admin to help me sort it out. (Thanks User:Sean_black!) pschemp | talk 07:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archives 

message: I'd really like to see this  picture used on the article. 141.217.84.59 18:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bad quality picture and not well sourced, there are other pictures that should be included, not this one. Fad (ix) 21:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: Well, after waiting some time after the vote was completed, it seems the voting was successful, and the removal of the POV tag was generally accepted by editors and administrators involved in this page. I would like to congratulate everyone involved here on this occasion--any time a dispute tag is removed, it's a sign of progress for Wikipedia. I would also like to thank everyone who voted and contributed to the process, including to FrancisTyers for his work in tuning the little imperfections of the article to render it ready for POV tag removal. --TigranTheGreat 23:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No probs, it was important to restore "credibility" in the article. Good job, everyone! John Smith's 00:15, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah congrats - good job - sorry I missed the vote.--THOTH 04:48, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV Tag removal 

message: *According to what source are these images are related to armenian genocide 
*Who suggests that the corpses are of Armenian ethnicity. 
*Where are the images from? Who had taken them? What is the copyright status?
:--Cool CatTalk|@ 03:11, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: *"Further information: Denial of Armenian genocide" - Dont expect the reader to assume "armenian genocide" as a fact.
:--Cool CatTalk|@ 03:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No "denial" is pov. We have been here before and a fix hasnt still happened yes. There is no such thing as "truth" and wikipedia does not exists for "truth". The topic is contraversial and framing the other side as "denialists" is unnaceptable. --Cool CatTalk|@ 14:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes we have been here before - and then - as well as now - it is aparent that you are here to do anything in your power to prevent the truth of the Armenian Genocide from being presented. We have posted and referenced more then sufficient official positions (from organizations such as the International Organization of Genocide Scholars and others) and cited specific scholarly works and mentioned the overwhelming eyewitness documentary evidence - including the observations of the Germans operating within the Ottoman Empire during this period - that uncategorically prove that what was done to the Armenian by the Ottoman Turks during this period was indeed a genocide. So will you just get over it already. Denial of genocide is a crime in some places...and you are a denier. Anyone who denys that there was an Armenian Genocide is just plain wrong - either through ignorance - either willful or otherwise - or because of deliberate special agenda. Denial - in general - and concerning the Armenian Genocide in specific is a known thing. It is not POV - it is also factual. There is no legitimate position - none whatsoever - that includes denial of the Armenian Genocide. Including such positions - other then referencing them as denial and other then discussing the merits - or lack therof concerning specific points being made - is doing an incredible diservice to truth and accuracy and is giveing a platform to denialists. I have stated before that I think the article as written has great faults and I am in favor of presenting a broader picture of the Armenian genocide which puts it in context with surounding events and that I believe more explanation concerning the causes of the Genocide and the motivations of those who enacted it is in order. But I simply cannot accept that denial of the Armenian Genocide is a legitimate perspective and that such contentions should be given a platform in articles such as this. I need to check the article on Christianity to see if the Aetheist viewpoint is given equal time. If so perhaps indeed I do not understand what Wikipedia is hoping to accomplish here. --THOTH 15:13, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I have a question for you THOTH do you ever edit article space? According to statistics you only made 5 edits total. All went to Armenian Genocide article on may 2005. You also had 278 posts on this very page. Instead of talking to people all the time, I encourage you to be bold and make edits. --Cool CatTalk|@ 15:01, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I cannot contribut to this article a maner to my likeing because the manner in whcih the article is composed and how it approaches the subject disagrees from my own perspective to the degree that I find it most difficult to just add to (rather then submitting a total re-write). I have proposed a partial outline for how the article could be re-worked - but aprently no one other then myself is interested. So I see my contributions are to participate in the talk page in hope of injecting some sanity and to better educate participants and readers concerning the facts and concerning a broad perspective of understanding of these events and their relevance. I think my contributions here are indeed worthwhile - unlike yours whcih I see as only being obstructionist and with a purpose to derail the article in its entirety. --THOTH 15:13, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

text: It seems to me - as an outsider - that the sections considered most POV are 'The Position Taken By Turkish Authorities' and 'Stance Taken by Turkish Intellectuals'. If we are to resolve this dispute, then, can we first discuss if there are any problems in this article outside of those two bits? If there are, then these can probably be sorted first before tackling any remaining issues in the controversial sections. Robdurbar 11:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Obvious POV

message: What changes are necessary to this article to make it "neutral"?
Thanks,
-Sahak
I have just reread the article in its entirety. I don't see how anyone can legitimatly claim that the article is POV or non-nuetral. In fact I think it more then covers the essential claims and elements of Turkish denial of the Genocide. In a longer article (perhaps in the article being proposed specifically concerning Turkish denial of the Armenian Genocide - I would expect to see more concerning the evolution of the Turkish position from outright denial that it ever happened to the more current position that while Armenains may have died/suffered so did Turks - etc. Additionally I would expect to see more coverage of the major proponents of the official Turkish "position" and major incidents - such as the Heath Lowery affair - as well as other specifics - such as Turkish funding of Turkish Studies overseas and the role of those recieving these funds in promoting Genocide denial (and the pre-conditions Turkey attaches to their financial aid) etc warrent coverage. The role of the Turkish Government in stifling internal debate and access to information should also be presented - such things as laws forbidding affirmation of the Genocide and attempts on the part of the Turkish judiciary to enforce such as well as basic information concerning how the Turkish public educational system enforces teaching of its specific view denying that a genocide even occured and outright blaming the victims of such (Armenians) for inciting the violence. As for the current article itself - while it contains much accurate and useful information - it lacks a clear flow for the presentation and it is difficult to really understand the relevance and impact of the information presented. I think one area that is clearly lacking in the article is a presentation of the sources of the evidence for the Genocide - the corraborated eywitness accounts and the role of foreign government and missionaries stationed in the Ottoman EMpire in documenting the Genocide. I also feel that the historical context of the Genocide - some of the "why" questions has not been sufficietnly addressed. Likewise the major actors and the variety of means of killing are not clearly presented IMO. In general I find the presentation of the article to be sloppy and somewhat unproffesional and in need of much improvement. However I am reluctant to take on this task without some kind of agreed mandate to do such. I would not be satisfied making only minor changes - bandages on a flawed product. I think a total re-write and reorganization is in order. I disagree with much of the current article's emphasis. The Pamuk incident for instance fails to convey the important underlying issues surounding his indictal and the pop culture section regarding System of a Down is so down in the noise in terms of relvancy and importance I can't see it being included when there is far more relavent information missing. I think a timeline is vital for this as well - with major events and proclimations clearly highlighted - such as passing of the abandoned property act. etc Anyway this is my take on the article. --THOTH 22:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Quit it Thoth, I have enought of it, your undertanding of NPOV policy is as weak as Coolcats. I already requested you to stop criticizing the article and starting to present concrete improvements. The last time you have suggested and have written a text it was totally POV. For the last time, Wikipedia present positions, not established facts. Fad (ix) 02:02, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  ? Face it the article is very poorly organized and written. I would love to contribute but unfortunatly my standards and approach are such that I cannot just do a sentance here or there - I am a conceptual thinker and I approach things in big chunks - thus it is nearly impossible for me to even concern myself with the minutia unless I am crafting an entire picture - it is just my way. I have however suggested topics which need to be better covered and I have provided some words which could potentially be used. However most of what I would do is reorganize and tell the story of what occured in a more coherent fashion with proper emphasis and background. I also feel that the weasle words used in the article dilute the message and make the article less then useful or even understandable. As written it is very difficult to gain any real understanding of the Genocide - in fact one can hardly even tell what a genocide is by the presentation and it certainly lacks real historical context - such as just why were Armenians victimized and why were the Turks driven to being so radical. Anyway - this article and the discussions here are so far from being anywhere close to approaching the issue correctly I really have little hope - but at least I can contribute to keep things honest and not let deniers get away with pushing BS without challenge. In the meantime I'll try not to cringe too much when I read the article - but unfortunatly - even though it does have much good information - the extremely amature and discoherent manner that it is arrranged and presented makes me do so...additionally, in my view there is a great deal of important fact and emphasis missing. --THOTH 05:53, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Er? Did you read the article? It doesn't provide any definitive number, I have changed that myself a long time ago. I have created an entry about the losses from every positions and I still need help getting that reviewed, I already requested but until now just one user has reviewed it. Fad (ix) 02:02, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

text: That's not good enough. I for example don't believe 6 million jews died during WWII, I believe the number was far less and that numbers don't really matter. Should I add the tag to the Holoaust article?--Eupator 00:27, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes I agree with Fadix & Eupator here. User Jester you really haven't read the article have you? Nor do you have any clue about anything concerning the Armenain Genocide or its denial. The 1.5 million claim - that is used by so many - first apeared in official (secret) German correspondence based on reports from Germans throughout Anatolia, and was essentially verified by other sources. Sure it is a rough number - but it seems that it was essentially accurate...though often one sees a variety of numbers from different reports and such - that there are differences arise for several reasons. First there is the issue of time period coverage - stricltly 1915/1916 or expanded from this (1914-1923 for instance). There are also issues regarding the geographical coverage of reported figures - just pertaining to numbers of Armenians in the Eastern provinces or do they pertain to Anatolia wide or do they even include Armenians who were killed in areas that are now in Iraq, Iran and in what is now Armenia itself - etc. Other confusion is attribution - do figures represent those directly killed or all those Armenians who died as a (direct or indirect) result of being uprooted, forced marched and exposed to the elements and diseases arising from proximity to the great numbers of dead bodies that were just left lying around in places and of course from starvation - as Armenians were givenlittle food and in fact often Turks were punished for feeding Armenians - etc I tend to think that based on likely population figures (accepted by foreign sources) the number who can be directly attributed to being killed by the Turks (or Kurds acting on behalf of the Turks etc) is at least 1.2 million (for the primary periodof the Genocide 1915-1916 for the entire region of Anatolia and areas under direct ottoman control. It seems that based on Ottoman records at least 800,000 (mostly women, children and elderly) were killed as a direct result of "deportation" with the rest likely being killed by other methods (firing squad or just mass slaughter etc) or otherwise dying from "deportation"/Genocide related conditions(and even some of course to general wartime conditions as the Turks like to claim...). Fadix has written an article (referenced in the main article) which speaks to various estimates of Armenian population numbers which could serve as a basis for understanding some of the numbers and percentages of population we are talkign about. In any event - as it is presented in the article - the number of deaths is not at all POV - this isn't the point of the dispute at all as far as I can see - though perhaps the number of Turks suposedly killed by Armenians - where some Turkish sources claim that 500,000 and now I am even seeing the 1 million claim in places - that were supposedly killed by Armenians. Of course these are entirely ludicrous and unsupportable claims - unlike the Armenian figures which are supported and corroborated by numerous diverse sources and not just by one set of doctored Ottoman accounts supplemented by I don't know - complete conjecture and wild immagination...--THOTH 06:09, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: The exclusion of this website has been discussed on this very same talk page in the past. The author is registered under a proxy and was a user of Wikipedia who uses quotes that do not exist(and I have already provided various such examples here when discussing with him), he slanders scholars personally in his website and the site contains racistic remarks as it has already been shown there. If it is permitted to have the same quality webpages in other Wikipedia articles, I will add this link back. There are already other racistic sites like armenianreality.com, which would have been removed right away if it was inserted in any other Wikipedia article. Fad (ix) 17:14, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - this type of low quality hate site has no business being listed in any way in Wikipedia - it is an insult to scholarship. --THOTH 19:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I dont understand what you mean by "racistic", can you give examples??? Also there is a lot of rubbish on the "supportive" section and no one seems to bring that up! 06:24, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Let us say that we are talking about David Irving's Institute of Historical Reveiw (or whatever silly thing he calls it) website. At every turn this site is claiming that jews were never deliberatly killed, that gas chambers were used to de-lice and that Jews who died did so because of starvation and disease and all the other reasons that were being experienced by normal Germans and the Jewish deaths were no more special then any other. Likewise the site continuosly decries eyewitness testimony as falsified and claims that the jews through their power and influence have convinced others of their contrived story. Attacks against the integrity and truthfulness of Holocaust eyewitnesses of the time and Holocaust scholars of today are shrilly made. Meanwhile all sorts of claims of German innocence and villyfing Jews by blaming them for their own (and german) misfortune are made - etc - and so on and so forht....now let me ask you - would you consider this a legitimate website to reference on the Holocaust page of Wikipedia? Or might you catagorize such a site as hateful and racist and certainly not of the quality to be considered as source material for anything serious. Please answer me this...--THOTH 23:44, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you pass a law that forbids denying the so called Armenian genocide, like many European countries have done, you make it impossible for historians to carry out the necessary research to bring things into light, and this issue risks of dragging on forever! Irrespective of your thoughts on this matter, there is a lot of debate going on as to whether the massacres constitute genocide (I dont see any such debate going on with the Holocaust deniers), the Armenians have put tremendous effort to provoke and vilify the Turks, you should maybe spend sometime just pondering through the sheer hate mail out there, it would probably take a life time to go through it. The point I am making is that the Armenians, through their aggressive behaviour have made it almost impossible to reconcile. Its not by provoking, intimidating, and, for a long while murdering Turks that they will get acceptance. On the contrary, it only embitters the other side. Furthermore, this whole debate is approached in a manner that is totally condescending to the vicitims of Armenian revolts, its as if their lives meant nothing compared to that of the Armenians.   06:57, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:   I suggest for a moment that you consider the Armenian perspective on this issue for a moment before asking Armenians to sympathise with the Turkish one. While I can sympathise for the sufferings experienced by Turks during this period and earlier in other nearby places the issue of this article is the Armenian Genocide. I have always been one to advocate a more thorough treatment of the topic - including events and actions and such which led to the situation where the CUP/Ottomans succesfully commited a genocide against the Armenians. Regardless of the truth of the Turkish claims of Armenian insubordination (that I view as clearly being quite exaggerated and presented out of context and not in good faith) the Ottoman authorities and their agents enacted and carried out a genocidal campaign against the Armenians which suceeded in its objectives - and that is why we are here discussing and presenting this information. The evidence that supports this contention is overwhelming and irrefutable and is overwhelmingly accepted by the vast majority of scholars and historians and pretty much everyone but native Turks and Turkish government sponsored researchers. This is not the "Armenian position" any more then acceptance of the Holocaust can be termed strictly a "Jewsih position". You speak of reconcilliation...how can there be reconcilliation without truth? You speak of victims of Armenian "revolts" as if Armenians started the killings, started the repression, actually had power such as the Ottoman Government and the Kurds armed by such to terrorize and slaughter masses. That some Turks were killed by Armenian bandits and/or revolutionaries at some places and at some points in time is insufficient justification for the actions taken against the Armenian population of Anatolia at large. I suggest that you yourself are improperly informed concerning the real issues and history of the period and what went on prior to 1915. Your focus on and acceptance of the CUP racist propoganda of the time that continues to be repeated and dispersed by the Turkish government and media has caused you to fail to understand realities. The Armenian Genocide is fact. I cannot make you accept this if you choose to remain ignorant. And if you choose to remain ignorant I don't see any possibility of reconcilliation. Once you are ready to acknowledge the most basic and obvious historical truths - that the Armenians were (by definition) clearly subjected to a genocide by the Ottoman Turks - and that there was and could be no sufficient justification for such a thing - then we can talk. --THOTH 07:40, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Its exactly this conditional reasoning of "first you acknowldege that its a genocide and then we will talk" that makes this debate so ridiculous. Its like telling a criminal that he should first acknowledge his crimes and then we can debate them with him. The genocide is not a fact, far from it, and there are plenty of reputable scholars and historians out there that question this very issue. The Armenians have through the years become so cunning in the art of intimidating those that question this issue, that its become almost impossible to approach it in an impartial manner. Its also inslulting that you trivialize the massacres commited by Armenians by making it sound that it was just a sporadic event with a few Turks killed here and there. Its again an example of the systematic dilution of the other side. I have serious doubts as to your impartiality on this issue. Armenians and Turks lived peacfully together for centuries, you cant light a fire without a match!
08:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  As I said sir - you are obviously both ignoring the facts of the overwhelming evidence that corraborates the accounts of genocide unconditionally and you are in acceptance of the rather spurious Turkish claims that Anatolian Armenians as a group ever commited any violence or rebellioneven remotely approaching what could be considered as justification for what was done to them. And you accuse me of lack of impartiality? Ha! To you Armenian claims of Genocide - even when fully backed up by overwhelming evidence and even when fully supported by the scholarly community except in a few very notable cases of scholars with proven agendas - is only "cunning and intimidation" on the part of Armenians is a clear indication of your bias/predjudice and exactly why there is no talking with one such as you. If a neo-Nazi or Holocaust denier (such as the president of Iran - Ahmdenejad) were to demand that the "facts" be investigated first (when they are all already pretty much known) we need not speculate what the response to such a denier would be - as we can see - And the Armenians deserve no less. Your claims are spurious and are stricly the respresentation of a denialist revisionist agenda. The only difference between you and your position and that of Holocaust deniers is that in the case of Armenian Genocide denial there is a concerted Turkish government campaign which actively leads the denial. We certainly can acknowledge that. As for Turksih losses - allegedly at the hands of Armenians - of course this is a subject that should be discussed. But in the manner that you propose - as some sort of a counter to the known facts of the genocide - sorry - it does not compute (and we have presented and discussed this time and time again). I would never thik to trivialize death - and as I have said - there were times when Armenian "gangs" "bandits" and/or "revolutionaries" did act to kill soem Turks - but no where near the numbers that are often claimed by certain Turkieh sources and not largely in the time or place that directly preseeds or occurs during the period of the Armenian Genocide. Additionally - to properly discuss these killings we must also discuss the repressive measures and massacres (of Armenians - and yes also of Turks - though primarily elsewhere and caused by others - not Armenians) that preceeded the Genocide and we must present the deteriorating conditions within the Ottoman EMpire and the motivations of the Young Turk leadership and forces within Ottoman Turkish society that led to distrust and eventual villianization of Armenians. likewise we need to present the attempts by Armenians for both outside redress to force reform within the Ottoman Empire and the Ottoman countereaction (ussually massacre). The push by Armenians for reforms and the rise of more radical elements/thinking by some in the Armenian community in response to the increased repression and massacre resulting from reforms imposed on the Sultan from outside powers all should be properly discussed in their context. In the end - you and all will see that although some Armenians did kill Turks - these isolated killings were used more as a pretext by a paranoid and racist CUP party with an agenda of "Turkifying" and developing a "final solution" to the "Armenian problem" then for any real military reason - etc. There was no "civil war" as the Turkish government and its supporters now claim - the Armenians were overwhelming loyal and peaceful and did not resist or even act in any way to prevent their genocide - the eyewitness evidence corraborates this. Meanwhile Armenains were not only being set upon by Kurds and by gangs of chettes composed of recent emigrees into Anatolia from outlying areas (where they had been driven out by other Christians and thus brought with them a hatred for Armenian Christins which was fanned and supported by the Ottoman Government) - no not only did Armenains have to deal with these usual depridations (all well documented) but then they were subject to an additional sweeping, wisespread adn all encompassing campaign on the part of the Ottoman Turkish Governmenet to uproot and murder them - to annhilate them as a people - and remove all traces of them from Anatolia - and this is what occured - all evidence - eyewitness at the time - thousands of accounts - all observing and depicting the same thing - and of course the evidence afterward -where all the Armenains of Anatolai now? Are they all at this mythincal "deportation" point in the Syrian desert? No - we know full well what happened to them. --THOTH 15:35, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sir, only a fanatic could take the time to produce such a misguided response as yours! Its almost laughable how you portray Armenians as humble, peace loving and well intentioned and without any provocation whatsoever, the evil Ottoman Turks gratituously massacred them to satisfy their pleasures after centuries of peaceful existance! Ha! In any case it is clear to me that our opinions diverge fundamentally and nothing in this world is likely to make either of us budge. On a side note I find it ironic that on a topic where supposedly an overwhelming majority of people support the thesis of genocide that its neutrality is being questioned! 18:36, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes of course. FYI - everything I wrote conforms to the views of genocide scholars and historians and the historical record. Elsewhere (in the archives a ways back by now) I have posted more detail concerning the various events and forces that cause Armenians to be perhaps seen as a threat and certainly villianized by the CUP/Ottoman Turkish elite and of course there is much which can be discussed here...again...however...none of it changes the fact of what did occur to the Armenians (Genocide) at the direction of the CUP/Ottoman Turks. You here are making light of these horrific events and that is not appreciated. But of course you are a genocide denier - which is indicative of your lack of empathy/compassion - so I am not surprised. Oh and yes - the "thesis of genocide" is overwhelmingly supported...that its neutrality (the presentation of such here in Wikipedia) is being questioned is more of a comment on the shameful institutionalized denial on the part of the Turks and your rabid - Turkey can do and never has done any wrong hyper nationalism and enforced ignorance then it is on the truthfulness of the Armenain Genocide and the accuracy of its portrayal here. --THOTH 23:37, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  tallarmeniantale website added back 

message: Like I already said, this picture does not represent victims of the genocide, I questioned its uses and what it truly represent. In my belief it is an Ottoman army contingent who after fighting have removed the dress of a Russian white battalion defeat to than dessring with their victims uniform and shutting a picture of them. It could have been Russian Armenian battalion fighting for their Tsar or etc., but I doubt this picture represent genocide victims. Fad (ix) 16:10, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I removed the first picture 

message: I see you've only edited this particular artical. Seems, like you're pushing POV here. And you're not taking part in the discussion. --tasc 21:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shelby28