Talk:Ezhava/Archive 2

message: Can we also talk about how people from the caste were also toddy-tappers and how they were victims of untouchability ? It seems to me that while the laudatory aspects of Ezhava culture and achievements are well and good, we should not shy away from talking about what Ezhavas went through. 
Ashankar 12:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untouchability

message: There is a tradition in the ‘Vadakkan pattukal’ that the Ezhavas arrived in Kerala by sea from Ezham, which is interpreted to be the present day Sri Lanka. However, it is interesting to note that the land to the east of the Tigris in Iran, now called Khuzistan was once known as Elam. A civilization flourished there five thousand years ago with city states having distinctive culture and language. Their language is found similar to the Dravidian language. In any case it appears that the ancestors of the present inhabitants of south India had arrived here by sea rather than by land from the north. It was only at a much later stage that the region now constituting Kerala developed its distinctive culture.
Link 
Daya anjali 05:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Are Ezhavas from Iran?

message: Guys Peace! I am no anthropologists. What ever I have stated in my previous discussion was based on my personal observation and experience. I have got friends from all over Kerala and I got opportunities to attend some of their marriages. There are indeed lots of differences between people from Malabar and South Kerala. The differences are not just in looks, there are also difference in language, dressing, food and hospitality.
On one of the wedding that I attended was in Trissur, where the groom was from a Syrian catholic, very well to do family and the bride was a Marthomite from Thiruvalla. It was obviously a love arranged marriage. When the bride's party arrived at the scene there were some silent comments from the guests on the groom side.  These were mainly on looks and dressing. Even thought most of the people on bride side were NRI's, mainly from Kuwait and US. 
Similarly I attended another wedding reception between thiyya bride and ezhava groom in Ernakulam. When the bride walked on to the stage, I could again here silent voices in the background from guests on groom side specifically on the looks and dressing of the bride.
I can go on and on... But my point is that Malabar and South remained divided in the past for too long and mixing of people didn’t happen. South I have to agree have got more pure stock of Dravidians than north. If you argue based on the "kola thozil" as the basis for a caste, then how can nadars be considered different from ezhavas, similarly billavas from thiyyas.
So let peace remain, the marriages continue and we will have one big happy family! --Keralone 23:52, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peace !!!!!!!!!! 

message: I find that two of my posting on the page Talk:Ezhava has been removed. Is it done by the editor or by someone else? Is it because the posts are content rich and not mere repeatation of oft repeated themes.
My posts headings include: A general answer
Please give me an answer someone.
--Ved from Victoria Institutions 18:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed your posts - you don't need to repost the same thing seven times. Once was quite enough. Natalie 11:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  My postings deleted Why? 

message: I saw your comment on my writings. I am grateful that someone has openly appreciated the contents.  You comments are regretfully lost from this page. It is available on the link I gave above. 
--Ved from Victoria Institutions 10:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rejoinder to User:Keraleeyan . 

message: I would reword it to “Palm Wine Makers” and make it part of our cultural and heritage that can proudly shown to visitors from around the world, similar to what Scots have done with the whisky makers.  Remember Kerala is the birth place for Palm wine making in India and other different Palm related products.
For that we must move on mentally, though in material sense we have already moved ahead. --Keralone 12:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Palm Wine Makers 

message: I would like to bring out the wrong perspective in the post Ezhavas and Tiyyas (by K K Kusaumam)
; in Malabar and some parts of Kochi they are known as Thiyyar,
 It is not correct; Ezhavas are not known as Thiyyar in Malabar. 
I do not know about Itty Achyuthan. Yet, as he was a person who helped in the compilation of Hortius Malabaricus, it is possible that he is from Malabar. So he must be a Thiyya. 
This can just a dream 08:25, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  An effort at correction 

message: How can you say its not correct? how both are not same? do u have any valid proof that they are same? have u heard abt mannan caste of south kerala(also called vannan in some areas). There r listed  in ST list in bracket its vannan (of malabar). You know vannan and peruvannan caste  has major role in a lot of temples in north kerala and theyyam. but vat abt mannan caste? they dont know any folk art at all. their responsibilty is to wash clothes of ezhavas. with this can u say they are different caste. these guys should not listen this. they will ... Link .
ezhavas in south may not be knowing much abt muthappan and in their temples Theyyam may not be there. This is the case of all caste in kerala. 
Nambiars and Nairs in North Malabar, until the early twentiteth century held a prejudice that they were superior counterparts in South of korapuzha river. In earlier days, Nambiar women, like most women of Nair clans of North Malabar would not unite herself to Nair men of South Malabar, nor to Nair men from central and south Kerala. Therefore such superior-clan Nair woman of North Malabar(Nambiar women being no exception), could not pass the hills to the eastward and the Korapuzha to the south. It was a taboo and breach of which involved forfeiture of caste.
So as there are no nambiars and menons in south kerala. That doesnt mean that they are not  part of nairs. This type cast divide is there in each and every region in  kerala.
have u seen `Ilaneerveppu' at Kottiyur Siva Temple? coconut is brought by thiyya members. they are called thandiyars and thandars. just like `Ilaneerveppu' performed at ezhav temples 
ved, Your main intention is to divide the community on the basis of caste name. if you say ezhava/thiyya marriages are intercaste marriages, then thousands of marriages have already happned. i too become son of intercast parent !!! Now girls of thiyya community are married to haryana boys. Link  
its also happening. so there is aprogress of ur intention.
Daya anjali 07:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please also research on "na" ( as in "naari", "naaya", "nakki", "naasham", "nashicha" )
Shanar is old name of nadar. u can read this link 
Not all channars were related to Palm Trees. there were warriors also. u can refer this link. http://www.alummoottil.com . The chekavan and channan might have derived from same word chekam.
Daya anjali 10:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: reply

message: U r not at all talking abt the points which i have mentioned. u r painting the diferences between the people of travancore and malabar here which is not the subject. and with the comments on moorkoth family and chambadan family i conclude that u dont know anything abt the sree narayan movement in malabar . for basic study of the subject u can go to this mathrubhumi article 
http://www.geocities.com/guruforum/moorkoth.jpg.
This can be like crash cource for u...
The fisrt biography of Narayana guru was written by Moorkothu kumaran when guru was alive. 
His son  Moorkothu Kunhappa written biography of Narayana guru in English, HIndi and tamil....
Moorkothu Ramunni is a strong follower of narayana guru....
The first statue of sree narayan guru was built in thalassey, second in calicut inside sreekanteswara temple compound. then southern people started following this. 
I think u need to visit kaivattom sreenatayana matam and learn abt the subject more in details. also go to payyannur matam...
 then ownwards u will stop abusing narayanaguru and thiyyas...
Thiyyas had martial heritage and it lost after the arrival of brahmins... its a known fact. if somebody spit from some victoria institutions that cant be changed.......
Some other links  that can useful for u are :
http://www.snms.net/disciplesmain.htm
http://stjosephshss.info/fstudents.htm
http://www.alibris.com/search/books/author/Murkot%20Kunhappa  
U can visit sree narayana matams in Mayyazhi listed out in following webpage
http://mahe.nic.in/links/tourist%20spot.html
Daya anjali 06:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: reply

message: This not a forum to discuss abt difference between the people of travancore and malabar ion detail... U can point that there is dieffrence so there could be dieference in cast also...
so pls remove. and start a new thread and discuss there
Daya anjali 06:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  please remove ur content,  Mr ved

message: At least u apreciated Guru's vision and work to the society. thats a gud sign. But in many of ur posts u were telling narayana guru has no impact in north kerala. impact is invisible to u. may be due to the growth of comunists in that part of kerala. However it was guru's impact that have given basis for communist growth.
u shud visit temples built by guru to c the change that have done to the social spectrum there.
Sree Bhakthi Samvardhini Yogam was constituted with the blessings of Sree Narayana Guru by a disciple of guru which has many institutions(School, engg college, TTC centre tec) in kannur, where a lot of thiyyas got employed. so the case of SN colleges in kannur, Chelannur and kasargode. so the case of SNDP Yogam College,Koyilandy and what abt gokulam gopalan who was born in calicut and is the president of sndp in chennai who is an ezhava/thiyya(as both are the same)u say that sndp is not popular in calicut and there are no ezhavas in calicut so who is gokulam gopalan ur a big fool who ever wrote this shit!!!
 
 
Sreekandeswara Kshetrha Yogam trust has many intitutions under its belt including sree narayana samskarika kendram.
Daya anjali 09:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply

message: I would request the anonymous user to use refined language. Mr Ved, Please don't get taken away by the foul comments. We don't know what his intention is. user:panikkar
:it seems like a lot of edits are happening between the anonymous users and registered users. its the responsibilty of us just to ignore those comments and move ahead with our discussion Daya anjali 05:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Refined Language

message: please control your language. if you have difference in opinion please come forward share your knowledge and face critisism politically. please contradict someones opinion with your knowledge and proove yourself..... Daya anjali 06:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: To anonymous users

message: I have replied to many of the comments(related difference between people of malabar and travancore) of User:ved036 as he is not ready to remove the contenet even after requesting personally and telling this is not the right place to discuss that subject. I have not asked anyone put the comments on as per i like. i am ready to contradict anyone's comments if i feel i have the knowledge on that subject. otherwise i will simply ignore that. Daya anjali 06:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reply to many of the comments

message: I also want to remind user ved that  use of malabar is questionable to rep the north kerala as the meaning of malabar and malayalam are same . ie.. the kingdom of hills ('Mala means hill and both the words bar(persian) and  aalam(local) means empire or kingdom). malayalam means a region  not a language (though now it has become to rep a language) Daya anjali 05:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: use of the word malabar

message: Hello guys, just want to contribute here i found in older post and from some website the following content . somebody interested to discuss this.
DNA analysis may prove that today's O'Odhams are genetically related to the India-Indians. Arjuna, Krishna's companion in the Mahabharata Wars (fought on Northern India's Kuruksetra plains in about 3000 BC), was married to a Patalan (American) princess. Military forces from Patala, possibly even some O'Odham among them, fought in those famous wars.
How did I'Itoi's deification get exported to India? Because Isvar was once the religion of all mankind, It could have been a partial contributor to all worldwide myths about Siva, eventually becoming consolidated in the Indian subcontinent. I'Itoi earned "godhood" on his own merits. Also, as a Hindu supreme leader, he was deified anyway. After all, the O'Odham and the Hindus do share the same India-originated "Way of Life."
Hindu immigrants to this country often tell me that they see the Southwestern Native-Americans as long-lost brothers. They say that many Native-Americans tell them the same thing. If we use Sanskrit language resources, Hindu mythology, Shaivite practices and mutually identical holy names as measuring sticks, the kinship between Native-Americans and South Asians becomes easily verifiable, no matter what the "experts" say. Could there be a special political reason why "The Great White Father" doesn't want certain Native-Americans to know they're Himday?
Some tribes, such as the Huicholes in Central Mexico, even remember from what Indian seaport they left for America - Aramra in Gujarat. The Huicholes revere a part of the beach at the old Mexican seaport of San Blas, Nayarit, as Aramara, "Place of Origin of the Huicholes." Millenniums ago, Gujarat was called Jukhar. Juj-Kha is an O'Odham name for "Mexicans." The Navajos call them Nakaii (Nagas). The Apaches claim to be Inde (Indus People.) They worship Shiva as Yusn. In Sanskrit, Yishan = "Shiva." Apache = "Enemy" in O'Odham. In Sanskrit, Apachnan = "Destroyer." Another name of the Zunis ("Zoonyees") is Ashiwi (Azhuva?, "Way of the Serpent," in Sanskrit). Two of their principal deities are Shivani and Shiwanikoya. Zoonya (Zuni?) and Zeenya ware epithets of ancient Kashmir. According to Indian historian K. P. Chon, the Naga Azhuvas, perhaps the forefathers of the Zunis, were India's oldest ruling dynasty. He said that they ruled for more than a thousand years. 
"The descendants of this dynasty are still to be found in the southernmost part of India in Kerala. They are even now called Azhuva or ezhava. The emperor Azi Dahaka, -- with two snakes around his neck -- was a devotee of Isvara."
(Remedy the Frauds in Hinduism; p. 22.) 
The ezhavas' ships were said to have sailed all over the world. 
The Hopis worship Siva under several of his names, one of which is Massawa (Maheswa?). The Hopis are ophiolators (snake worshippers). Thousands of years ago, a famous Naga cult called Hophiz lived near Kabul, Afghanistan. Orginally, this nation was named Oph (Serpent) + Gana (Group; Family) + Stan (Nation). "Afghanistan" evolved from "Oph-gana-stan." The Afghan Hophiz snake cult spread to Greece, becoming Ophis. The Ophis cult was popular in the ancient world, even among the Christian gnostics. Needless to say, it also found its way to the American Southwest. We may never know the exact "hows." 
The name of the ancient Hopi village of Oraibi causes me to wonder whether the Hopi nation was a famous stronghold of Saivism, known even in India. This unusual word lacks only the "Bh" in Bhairavi, epithet of Goddess Durga. However, Grierson's Dictionary of the Kashmiri Language mentions another meaning of the term, which may explain exactly how and why Oraibi got its name: "Name of a certain class of lower deities who form Siva's host..." One of these is after the local godling of some locality or tract of country. Special localities protected by him are looked upon as sacred" (p. 129; item 44.) Was Southwestern United States an important Shaivite holy center in earliest times? 
Other ancient Naga sea-faring miners, traders, conquerors and colonizers who left their bloodlines and names all over the Americas and the rest of the world were the Ute, Yuti, Yutiya, or Juti (Jutes). The Northern Mexican Indians called the invading Spaniards, "People-Who-Came-Before:" Yutiya ("Judeeya"); Yuti; Juti ("Jodee" or "Judee)." In Spanish, the word is usually spelled as Yori; Yuri. "R" is trilled as in "City." "Y" often approximates our "J." Because of the Spanish spelling, we can't see that this word is really the English "Jute.". Why did these Indians believe the Spaniards were Jutes? Juti now means "non-Indian Mexicans and Gringos." In Sanskrit, Juddhi; Yuddhi = "Conquerors." Our history books tell us that the "Jutes" were "Northern German or Danish tribes." 
Tn pillai 08:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dont have any knowledge abt this. what u can do here is u can put this in the arictcle Origin of ezhava caste.
Daya anjali 09:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Origin of this caste

message: There have been a lot of comments of varying moods on my posts here. Most of my posts are not here on this page anymore, with most of them having been vandalised/removed by someone.
This page is actually meant to bring in improvements and corrections to the Ezhava Page. I do not think it is possible with the current mood of taking offence to information that seems unpalatable. 
There have been a lot of retorts to my comments. It is not possible to reply to them without going a bit beyond the parameters of the castes in discussion. Yet, since the castes are connected to the people here, many of their aspects also will need to be brought into the debate. It is only natural. Thus words cannot be confined to watertight compartments. 
English & Malayalam
First to take user:Keraleeyan’s words in regard English and Malayalam. When talking about personality development on an individual level, I think English cannot come near Malayalam. For, once a person reaches some social position or financial acumen, feudal level Malayalam words can give him crippling powers over others. This type of ‘personality development’ English cannot lend to any of its speakers. The personality development that I was referring to was of a whole society developing. 
Subduing an human aura 
I remember an incident that happened around 1984. One of my relatives, a senior retired bureaucrat had a tiff with a working-class man (of equal age) on some financial aspect of some contract. Naturally this person took it to the police station. There (I understand) both were present. The retired bureaucrat in a seat and addressed with reverential words, while the working class man addressed as ‘Nee” and referred to as ‘Avan”. To say that these words do not have any affect is to be blind. 
Later the police informed that ‘we have told him (avanodu) that we will punch his bone into water (idichhu vellamakkum)’. Being well ingrained in the security that English lends, I only hope that persons placed in similar position could tell the police with assertiveness that they can’t understand Malayalam, only English is comprehensible.
What created the aura and how it was lost
Now, this incident may be taken to an earlier referring of mine to the ‘converted to Menon’ issue. People who are kept at the lower edges of a stinging feudal language do exhibit a hue of subjugation, and possibly physical/spiritual ugliness. It is definitely not a genetic design, even though science has not yet discussed on this aspect of physical designing. If 
Again, I did mention about the superior looks of a minor percentage of Thiyyas that came to be perched on them during the times of British rule. I do not think that the Thiyyas population has been able to retain it in the newer social circumstances. 
The issue in that ‘converted to Menon’ issue, which I feel is the only rude thing that I did mention on this site, should not be taken as an offence, but the persons concerned should have the profundity to understand the powerful codes that created the issue. The person who did make this comment was only displaying the affects of the liberal social atmosphere he experienced from English and English superiors. 
The imbalances
Again, it must be stated that the problem with unbalanced languages is that they can create severe imbalances in social relationships as the society tries to go in for liberated social designs.  
Creation of aversion 
Now talking about the suppression and aversion that the higher castes felt to the lower castes is not a bygone issue. In fact, it is a fact of everyday life even in present day India. Now castes do not mean much, profession and financial capacity means much. Recently one persons of superior social position told me that when he was standing in a market, a unfamiliar man from the labour class came and addressed him with affable familiarity, in a most friendly manner, with a ‘Nee’. It was only a display of camaraderie; yet, it was repulsive and the other man made haste to move away. 
A different historical perspective
Again user:Keraleeyan has said about British rule and Jallianwala bagh. Not only Jallinawalabagh but also the immensity of police and military atrocities going on in our nation can be explained only from a very different perspective of history, till now not attempted by any so-called experts. A slight attempt can be seen at on this link.
As to the evilness of the British colonial empire, well what we saw over here was only a amalgamation of soft English systems as they existed in the midst of a feudal language social system. Even then, British administrators were far better in their approach to local problems, when compared to local persons who came to don administrative authority. Not because the former were better persons, but because they were living in a more liberal language system; one that couldn’t despoil another man or woman’s innate individuality by the simple choice of words. 
The present day Malabar
user:panikkar has admonished with me (in a refined manner) for my comments comparing the south and north. I appreciate the tone. Thank you. Now let me say that what I wanted to say was that the Malabar which was once identified with the ‘offspring’ of the British does not exist. In many ways, especially in the interiors, it is creepy. 
The spiritual parameter of development
Yet, talking about development, it is true that the south does exhibit the affect of huge financial investments. I remember when I used to travel regularly by my own vehicle from north to south every month, around the beginning of the 90s, I was deeply impressed by the stretch of road from Quilon to Trivandrum. Straight like an arrow, with mirror like finish. 
Going beyond the physically visible development there is another side that is not noticed or noticeable to the layman. When one thinks of development, it is sort of visualising a car and a concrete house for everyone and all of the population either a doctor, an engineer or a government employee. This type of development is not possible. 
The other indispensable development is in the quality of the people. And not of a people who are differentiated into a varying levels of groups, each bitterly envious of the other.  Not of a group of persons trained in showing obsequious servitude to the highly placed and terrifying repression to the lower placed. This I feel can come from a good training in English. Whether it be Brahmin, Ezhava, Malayan, Nair, Pulaya, Thiyya, Varma, and much else. 
Escaping the rhetoric
It is easy to demonstrate a passion for Malayalam. Yet, to the lower placed persons, I would say, ‘do not believe in such rhetoric and gimmickry. Learn good English and escape the slavery that is encoded in the language of the higher ups.  Let English not be the language of the rich; let it be the language of the common man. 
The factor of honesty
Then about the factor of honesty. I had qualified by sentence with: “for there was a more or less honest bureaucracy.” I fear that it was not noticed. Bureaucratic honesty does have a great role in permeating this quality down the ladder. I remember an incident in 1984, when I was travelling from Statue to Kesavadasapuram in an auto rickshaw. The driver overcharged. When it was pointed out, he said to the effect: “Everywhere we have to give bribe; to the RTO office, to the Motor Vehicle Inspector, to the policemen on traffic duty, no paper, permit or certificate is given on time. We do not complain or have any place to complain. When we simply overcharge you a few rupees extra, you are raising a hullo bulla.” He did not mention that he was also bearing the brunt of lower levels words in Malayalam usually addressed to commercial drivers. 
Innate goodness
Then I need to answer to another comment about innate goodness and English. It is true that there are good and bad persons everywhere; yet, crude languages can spoil others who come to bear their brunt. Speaking English does not make a man good. Yet, it saves him from the heinous codes aimed at him using feudal languages by others. 
Candid observation and shallow research
Then about research. I do not do research if this word is supposed to mean reading a lot of book by so-called experts. What I have written here is simply what I have observed over the years. Yet, I must admit that I have also read much on a variety of themes.  
Women and social class
I had mentioned thus: Women exist more terrible panes than in the south; either very low, or on very high level, never in a level of normalcy.  
Around 1980, when I brought some young friends of mine from Travancore, to Tellicherry, they were deeply impressed by the assertiveness of the womenfolk (thiyya) in the house there. Yet, there was a lot of Thiyya women there itself who lived in the lower levels of assertiveness also. Even though, I had first thought that the higher assertiveness of the former group of women were connected to the now-redundant matriarchal system,  I later did find certain other clear reasons for both the higher as well lower assertiveness of the differing groups of women. 
Designing beauty
Then back to the issue of language; it may be felt that I am a person who has no knowledge of Malayalam. It is not true. I have seen the beauty that can be carved using Malayalam words; I have seen it in the immense film songs of Vayalar Rama Varma. When it came coupled with the haunting music of another genius called G Devarajan, the effect was simply divine. Yet, there are much more to be said of Malayalam. 
Exceeding the bounds
It may be felt that this post of mine has exceeded the parameters of the context of the subject of this page. I had to say so much because the other posts demanded a explanation. Yet, I do doubt whether the Talk Page has the ambit to contain a wider debate on the various aspects of the subject matter. It basically can only debate on improving the Ezhava Page.
A copy to forestall vandalising
Because there has been constant vandalising of my posts here, 'I keeping a copy of all my posts here in this link'.It may be understood that no replies or comments can be done there.
--Ved from Victoria Institutions 12:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  An Explanation