Talk:Rick Alan Ross

message: From the above threads, it appears that we are lacking some coverage of Ross's involvement in the NXIVM controversy or whatever one wants to call it. The present article text mentions NXIVM only with the  "NXIVM, in April 2004, unsuccessfully sued Ross's Cult Education Institute in NXIVM Corp. v. Ross Institute, claiming copyright infringement.", follwed later by "Ross has been interviewed for various documentaries ... including: The Vow, season 1, episode 6, "Honesty & Disclosure" (2020, HBO), about Catherine Oxenberg and the NXIVM cult; Seduced: Inside the NXIVM Cult (2020, Starz), about the same; ....".
So, the "meat" of the Ross–NXIVM connection is missing. 
All the above closed-out Edit-COI requests are likely to be moved to an archive page soon, so here's the relevant gist:
* "There are many others who have commented positively about my work, for example concerning NXIVM." —Ross.  So, these should be findable sources.
* "my work did not end with the Scott case, but rather greatly expanded and continued, which also has been widely reported. See https://www.oxygen.com/true-crime-buzz/who-is-cult-expert-rick-ross-whats-his-connection-to-nxivm ..." —Ross. That source has already been used as proof of participation in a documentary, though I'm not sure it has anything about direct involvement with the NXIVM case.
* Some specific revision language that was suggested: "Ross testified for the prosecution at the criminal trial of NXIVM cult leader Keith Raniere in 2019. Raniere was found guilty of racketeering, human trafficking, sex offenses, and fraud and sentenced to 120 years in prison and a $1.75 million fine. See https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/founder-nxivm-purported-self-help-organization-and-five-others-charged-superseding and see https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/nyregion/nxivm-cult-keith-raniere-sentenced.html ... In 2020 Ross appeared in the widely watched documentaries The Vow and Seduced concerning NXIVM and Raniere. See https://onezero.medium.com/cult-deprogrammer-rick-alan-ross-on-nxivm-qanon-and-what-makes-us-vulnerable-62f6c709562c and see https://seduceddocumentary.com/theexperts/rickalanross/" —Ross. Some of the latter of this (about docus) has been integrated (by SMcCandlish), but the  stuff is what we're missing sources on (and any mention of in the article).
* "Regarding the documentary Seduced see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduced:_Inside_the_NXIVM_Cult already established through notes here at Wikipedia."  —Ross. I (SMcCandlish) did pull one source from that article to use for citing a documentary-related claim here, but there may be other relevant sources already cited there.
* "NXIVM: Neither source [of two previously mentioned works earlier in a thread] contains the text 'Ross', so they are not sources for any Ross involvement in that case. Involvement seems very likely and probably provable, but these are not sources for it. One source mentioned below does mention involvement in the case, but in too little detail to be useful. NXIVM stuff should be a separate edit request, suggesting particular material to add that provides a summary of the Ross involvement in that case, and multiple independent, reliable sources with in-depth coverage." —SMcCandlish; who is now opening the present thread as a way of addressing this, without waiting on another  request from Ross.
* "Variety mentions my historical significance See https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/the-vow-where-are-keith-raniere-allison-mack-1234808846/" —Ross
* "The Variety source ... [has] mention of 'Ross' .. in connection to the background [NXIVM] lawsuit" —SMcCandlish
* "NXIVM and the Waco Davidian standoff are the most prominent cult events in my work history. But the Jason Scott case is not how I am known by the public, its meaningful to be included, but not equally prominent when compared to NXIVM and Waco.
* "My book was the first book about cults to mention NXIVM. And the papers by two respected doctors published at culteducation.com was the first critical analysis by mental health professionals released about NXIVM. Raniere's 14-year legal battle with me, which he ultimately lost, was widely reported. And of course I worked with the Justice Department and FBI regarding his prosecution and testified as a fact witness at his trial. It seems to me that my battle with Raniere will be as important as Waco historically, due to legal precedents established. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NXIVM_Corp._v._Ross_Institute" —Ross. 
* "My work on ... NXIVM criminal trial testimony ... is notable and brings the bio up to date. ... My point is that my work did not cease in 2004 and in fact expanded and continued as reported." —Ross. This is reasonable and is why I (SMcCandlish) care enough to examine this; I don't like grossly outdated bio articles here, much less ones that have a  in them, introducing something like an NXIVM lawsuit with no context at all (and no information on how that case resolved).
* "see from the many links regarding my documentary work, court battle with NXIVM and subsequent testimony at cult leader Keith Raniere's criminal trial ... there has been considerable work reported in the past 20 years that is both relevant and notable. So why isn't it in this bio? It is reflected elsewhere on Wikipedia. Certainly reliable and credible sources according to Wikipedia have reported it. NXIVM, by any objective measurement, is far more noteworthy than the Jason Scott case. ... put NXIVM in the lead and follow with Waco." —Ross. Overall this seems reasonable enough to look into, especially if other articles here have some sources cited already that can be re-used, though really just search-engining around for additional source materials should not be that much of a challenge.
The above can be distilled into a very rough draft along the lines of the following (using a bit of existing material in the article and the source for it, but without any other sources yet):
This is missing various details (What did Ross's book and the CEI papers say about NXIVM, in nutshell summary? How exactly did the case resolve? Why was it a copyright case, which is kind of weird?), but I think there must be sources we can use already cited at the case article, at the NXIVM article, at the Raniere article, and possibly at one or another of the articles on the documentaries.  One part from the thread summary above that is not addressed is "legal precedents established", since I don't know what that refers to, though perhaps the case article covers this (I haven't pored over it yet).
If something like the above block can be properly sourced and put into the article, then it would also be appropriate to include a summary of Ross's involvement with NXIVM matters in the lead of the article, since it's arguably more significant than some of what is already in the lead.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:17, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The case article NXIVM Corp. v. Ross Institute sums it up pretty well; but some statements there don't seem to be properly supported by the sources cited, so we'll need to investigate that some more.  That article hopefully has enough sources to fill in all those details that seem missing above, like copyright: because NXIVM wanted to suppress the criticism and publication of their manuals; the precedent seems to be in the lead of the other article:"critical analysis of material obtained in bad faith, i.e., in violation of a non-disclosure agreement, was fair use since the secondary use was transformative as criticism and was not a potential replacement for the original on the market, regardless of how the material was obtained".  If we need more sources for specific info we can ask Mr. Ross. ---Avatar317(talk) 00:05, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Properly covering Ross–NXIVM matters

message: The bio now states:
By 2004, Ross had handled more than 350 deprogramming cases in various countries[8] and testified as an expert witness in several court cases.[8][42][43] He has also contributed to a number of books, including a foreword to Tim Madigan's See No Evil[44] and a chapter to Roman Espejo's Cults: Opposing Viewpoints.[45]
But I have testified in notable cult trials including NXIVM criminal trial of Keith Raniere and recently the rape trial of cult leader Eligio Bishop.
I suggest the paragraph be revise to read:
By 2004, Ross had handled more than 350 deprogramming cases in various countries[8] and testified as an expert witness in several court cases.[8][42][43]. Ross testified as a fact witness in the criminal trial of NXIVM leader Keith Raniere and as an expert witness at the trial of Carbon Nation leader Eligio Bishop. Both alleged cult leaders were criminally convicted and sentenced to prison, Raniere for more than 100 years and Bishop for life without parole. He has also contributed to a number of books, including a foreword to Tim Madigan's See No Evil[44] and a chapter to Roman Espejo's Cults: Opposing Viewpoints.[45]
See https://www.timesunion.com/nxivm/article/Cult-expert-testifies-about-his-dealings-with-13972283.php
And see https://www.vice.com/en/article/j5wk88/what-its-like-to-be-surveilled-and-sued-by-nxivm
Also see https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/cult-expert-testifies-at-rape-trial-of-accused-cult-leader-eligio-bishop
And see https://hoodline.com/2024/02/cult-clash-in-the-courtroom-expert-brands-eligio-bishop-a-destructive-leader-amidst-atlanta-rape-trial-shockers/ Rick Alan Ross (talk) 21:44, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I added info from the TimesUnion source; I didn't see it using the term "fact witness".  I don't have time now to look at the other sources, so that's all for now. ---Avatar317(talk) 01:50, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Court Expert Witness