Talk:Joseph Brodsky

message: It seems that Russian-lang 1998 Works and days consists mostly of memoirs of others about Brodsky and and analysis of his writings. After I listed it here and only then briefly looked at its online edition, I'm not sure where exactly it belongs. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 10:45, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Russian language editions

message: Why is he listed as Russian poet if he was an American citizen? I think saying Russian American would be more correct
What do you think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Northern (talk • contribs) 07:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How about Russian born American? That seems to be the standardization per wp:mosbio. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Threeafterthree (talk • contribs) 16:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think Galassi confuses being an English-language poet with being an American poet. The latter does not mean the language, but simply the country of residence. There are, for instance, plenty of Yiddish-language American poets and Brodsky clearly was an American poet. (In addition, I must say he published two books of original essays and at least one collection of original poetry in English, so WHO can judge whether that is or isn't enough to be called American?!)--SimulacrumDP 16:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I plead total ignorance on this but would ask, what nationality did Brodsky have when he did most of his work or become notable? As pointed out above, it isn't about what language he wrote in, ect but his citizenship/nationality. The article says he became a US citizen in 1980, he would have been 40 years old. This is one of those really dicy ones. I know my good friend JackoLantern would probably ask "What do most reliable sources call him? I won't revert/do anything until we can get more eyes involved, thanks! --Tom 18:05, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: He lived in the United States since 1972.--SimulacrumDP 18:12, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Calling JB an American poet is a bit притянуть за уши................. Most of his poetic thinking was done in Russian. So there you have it.Galassi 18:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is that in Russian or Russia?? Again, I'm just trying to figure out how to classify his nationality and not his literary genre. Thanks --Tom 18:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:   Russian has 2 forms to distinguish citizenship from culture, русский & российский. It is not easy то convey in English.Galassi 18:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Galassi, thanks and I sort of get what you mean. We still need to figure out how to mention Brodsky's nationality in the LEAD sentence. Did he have US citizenship? Did he maintain Russian citizenship? What do other reliable sources refer to him as? Again, I am not trying to deny his ethnicity or say he is entirely American, but per wp:mosbio, nationality should be mentioned in the lead. Of what citizenship was he when he did his most notable work. Anyways, cheers! --Tom 19:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  He was STRIPPED of his Soviet citizenship, was naturalized in the US, was ethnically Jewish, and culturally Russian.Galassi 22:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: That's confusing, of course. Yet, not as much as it seems. Brodsky wrote poetry predominantly in Russian (although not exclusively) and he wrote prose mostly in English (although not exclusively). He lived in the US since 1972. He was Russian (language) AND American (residence) author. So, Russian(-language) American author, or Russian and American author both sound fine to me. For the introductory sentence it immediately provides an idea of his linguistic and geographical affiliations...--SimulacrumDP 18:12, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian or American? 

message: In unfortunately typical Wikipedia style, the article mentions right in the beginning how "He had an honorary degree of the University of Silesia." This is mentioned before we even know anything about his works or struggle with the Soviet government, possibly because a local Silesian patriot meant to emphasize it. The honorary doctorate from Yale is mentioned much further below, although I would believe that university has an unlike greater reputation (this might be different in the are of Russian-language poetry?). I could not find evidence on the web that Brodsky actually has that honorary degree from Silesia, maybe some Polish speaker can verify this?  The degree from Yale is mentioned on . 169.237.10.220 01:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I confirm, that Brodski was awarded by the University of Silesia in 22 June 1993. http://gu.us.edu.pl/index.php?op=artykul&rok=2003&miesiac=10&id=2714&type=no You can read a memoir about that, published in the University Newspaper (pol. Gazeta Uniwersytecka). There also two interesting photos from these days, Brodski with Czesław Miłosz, who was his favourite poet, and with his fans, signing autographs. Unfortunately, we can't publish them here, I think... Kowalmistrz (talk) 10:41, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: He received many honors - do we need the full list of his awards and honors at the beginning of the article, or in the end?130.166.34.168 (talk) 03:47, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Silesian bias 

message: In my opinion, the question "is JB a Rusian Poet?" is a little far-fetched...
Let me take a simple example: Irwing Berlin - a Jew, who came to USA from the Russia's Far East - is one of the Greatest AMERICAN composers (and liricists).
Like JB, he was russian-born, but nobody ever was trying to call him "Russian" or "Russian-American", even in spite he (unlike JB) left his native land voluntary, as child with his parents. 
There is a lot of similar examples, especially  in America. 
Today JB known as one of the Greatest poets of 20th Century. It would be never happen if he wasn't an American Citizen. And he was writing in English also.
And he has never been in Russia after his exile. And those who wanted see him coming back...now call  him  "Russian". But it's a wrong idea.
Actually, he was a P O E T.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.17.125 (talk) 16:44, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joseph Brodsky 

message: I suggest cutting the Russian listing of works re WP:RSUE. The sources are available in English and only Russian-speaking editors can maintain this part of the page. Spanglej (talk) 05:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Russian listing of works

message: In her biography of Brodsky Shtern writes that the plaque on his house reads  "In this house from 1940 to 1972 lived the great Russian poet Iosif Aleksandrovich". If there is any query to this, please add a source and /or discuss here. Thanks. Span (talk) 08:14, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Plaque

message: are u crazzzy??? how much in english and in russian?
"Я чувствую себя русским поэтом, англоязычным эссеистом и гражданином Америки" - 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6zL8T_ai6U&feature=related
"I think I'm a russian poet, an english essayist and US citizen"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.169.44.24 (talk) 22:25, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The lead refers to his citizenship. Span (talk) 22:38, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps Russian poet and essayist would be the best opening? --Jaan Pärn (talk) 10:12, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes. A poet is normally identified by the language he writes in.--Galassi (talk) 11:20, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You do not get the point. Russian poet and essayist as piped to Russian literature does not detail the ethnicity because this would be against the policy, but gives the geographic context. This is what I propose. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 12:31, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: A poet is not defined by the language he writes in on Wikipedia. Galassi, we've been here before. See above. He was a naturalised American citizen. Span (talk) 12:43, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ethnicity is politically irrelevant for a poet. There are many Jews among Russian poets, with a number of citizenships. Their Russian Poet title is never disputed, except for some marginal antisemites.--Galassi (talk) 12:06, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: His English essays are outstanding. That is what brought me here -- where I noticed a mistake about the cemetery in Venice and fixed it. Mballen (talk) 23:11, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: was an American poet and essayist

message: WP:OPENPARA says we determine by citizenship. Brodsky was a US citizen. 'Russian-born American'  is fine with me. This does not have to do with language, ethnicity or anything else. Just legal status of citizenship. Span (talk) 13:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: How 'bout "Russian poet and American man of Letters"? That rationally summarizes his literary activities.--Galassi (talk) 14:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It isn't about the subject's activity, just citizenship. The idea is to make the article the best and clearest that it can be for readers. Span (talk) 15:21, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: To be precise, the policy states normally nationality is defined as citizenship, while the Soviet Union is not a normal case by any means. One could argue that Russia as a nation never ceased to exist. At the breakup of the country, Soviet citizens were automatically entitled to citizenship in a republic of their choice. That would have been surely Russia for Brodsky. I realise this is complicated but someone with more knowledge and experience on this matter could perhaps explain whether it is correct to assign Russian as the nationality during the Soviet Union. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 15:52, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The question before us at the moment is citizenship. Brodsky chose US citizenship. He left and never went back. He was the US poet laureate. I am not American, by the way, I'm just wanting to get clarity that helps the article become stable. Span (talk) 16:01, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Citizenship is secondary for (in this particular case a Russian) poet, especially one who was FORCIBLY EXILED/EXPELLED. There is no conroversy here, he is a Russian poet, and American citizen, and his NOTABILITY rests on the former. --Galassi (talk) 16:21, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The question before us is not citizenship but nationality. Otherwise we'd just put Soviet and close the case. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 16:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  In English nationality and citizenship are the same. Ethnicity in English refers to Soviet "Nationality".--Galassi (talk) 16:35, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

text: No, besides belonging to a sovereign state, nationality may denote belonging to a nation. See Wikipedia:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom for example. One may easily argue that several nations constituted the Soviet Union, including Russian. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 16:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There are several constituent Nations in UK, hence UK nationalities, a very particular case, but there is no difference between Nationality and Citizenship in American English.--Galassi (talk) 17:46, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Just check Nationality#Nationality_versus_citizenship to be convinced in the opposite. Even modern Russia has several nationalities. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 18:36, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  IN the US a "national" is a someone of any ethnos or color born in the US, while a "citizen" may be a naturalized ex-foreigner.--Galassi (talk) 19:01, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Then we are discussing a U.S. citizen of some other nationality. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 19:44, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In Brodsky's case his Citizenship is American, his Ethnos is Jew (but not Jewish, as he was in all likelyhood a Protestant of some sort) and his Nationality is none, because he was stripped of his Soviet citizenship. All that aside he was a RUSSIAN poet.--Galassi (talk) 19:56, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

text: Yes, and that is why I have proposed already two options: Russian poet or Russian poet. Please acquaint yourself with WP:OPENPARA which warrants only the nationality during the time the person became notable, not later. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 21:42, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  The first is more acceptable. Let's get on with it.--Galassi (talk) 22:09, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:OPENPARA

message: Brodsky's work is seen to have been vitally enhanced by the work of renowned translators.
I think this sentence can be misinterpreted in a way that the English translations are better than the Russian originals. Should it be perhaps rephrased like:
The reception of Brodsky's work by English-speaking readers has been greatly facilitated by the work of renowned translators.
--Off-shell (talk) 23:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing sentence 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The only text about Brodsky's views on Ukraine in the contested version is "Brodksy considered Ukraine to be part of "Greater Russia"." The rest is about the poem. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:24, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Proposed section "Views on Ukraine" is indeed about Brodsky's views on Ukraine. But chill bro, it seems you're just making a joke out of this whole section, saying Brodsky had opinions on cats and such (who on Earth gives a damn about cats, I definitely don't - let them live in the wilderness, they should've never been domesticated in the first place). Its seem the only appropriate answer to your above comment is What!? Ukraine is game to you!?. ps. 'Staszek Lem' I don't come to Poland-related articles and tell you my opinion on what's important and what's not important as it relates to Poland - then why do you do that in relation to Ukraine? (and FYI I'm half-joking here - I'm very well-aware that WP rules allow anyone, regardless of their race/origins/ethnicity to edit/comment on anything)--Piznajko (talk) 19:32, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: This is simply not true. Here is your section. Only first short phrase is not about this poem. Come on. WP:Dead horse. My very best wishes (talk) 20:22, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  You and your other WP:Tag team friends, who find information about Brodsky's anti-Ukrainian views offensive, simply try to block addition that information to the article (information that has numerous RS) by claiming false WP:UNDUE status. So I can say WP:Dead horse to you - stop trying to censor article and prevent important information that you dislike from appearing in it.--Piznajko (talk) 05:05, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop assaulting other editors and do discuss the substance of the matter.Miacek  (talk) 16:47, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  No assaults on other editors here, just mere stating of the facts.--Piznajko (talk) 02:28, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Is the section in question really about Brodsky's views on Ukraine?

message: Unclear sentence here:
According to Russian literary critic and biographer and friend of Brodsky Lev Losev, Brodsky considered Ukraine "the only cultural space with Great Russia", and the Polish historian Irena Grudzinska-Gross [pl] in her book "Milosz and Brodsky" (2007) Brodsky firmly believed that Ukraine and has always been "an integral part of Great Russia". 
VickiMeagher (talk) 01:03, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unclear sentence needs to be rewritten  

message: This article in The Guardian mentions an unpublished poem with strong anti-Ukrainian sentiments after Brodsky received his Nobel and immigrated to the US. This should be included in the Wikipedia page on Brodsky, but needs to be done by someone more familiar with his work.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/dec/04/our-mission-is-crucial-meet-the-warrior-librarians-of-ukraine
‘ In 1992, Nobel prize winner Joseph Brodsky wrote On Ukrainian Independence, a poem of rage and loathing which he never published. The work possesses a deep desire for the destruction of Ukraine: “Hurry back to your huts to be gang-banged by Krauts and Pollacks right in the guts.” But On Ukrainian Independence is a bizarre kind of love song, too, like the rageful cry of an abandoned husband: “Our love is up, if it at all existed.”’ 2600:8805:5C28:5300:F546:3FE:17C1:A4B6 (talk) 11:55, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accusations of anti-Ukrainianism