Talk:Cliff Lee

message: In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to count rehab starts when deciding which minor league team categories to add to a player's article. Technically speaking, I'm not sure that these players even go on the minor league team's roster. I think I'll post a question about this on the Baseball Project and Baseball Player Project discussion pages to see if we can reach some consensus. If you have an opinion about this topic, please post your comments here. --Sanfranman59 18:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally, I don't think the category should exist at all, but if it does exist it should be as complete as possible and he is listed on their roster at the official site 69.68.238.142 20:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kinston Indians category? 

message: Lee is not drafted by the Florida Marlins in the 8th round.--KANESUE 19:50, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: He was.  http://www.thebaseballcube.com/draft/1997/June-Reg/8.shtml  And he appears in the first link you posted as "Clifton Lee". --Muboshgu (talk) 12:00, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Draft 

message: Multiple sites are reporting that Cliff Lee has been traded to the Phillies (boo for me). Should we change this so it's now updated or has it yet to be confirmed? 
:They are reporting that a trade has been agreed upon - its not final yet. Pending physicals. JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 18:58, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "EVERY trade is not final until physicals."  Exactly. Which is why no baseball Wiki page/roster is ever updated until then. This isn't something new.  This happens for every major trade and free agent signing. Teams don't announce anything until its is a done deal. This has nothing to do with any team allegiances. JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 19:59, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

text: That was me, and analogy holds. Obama was elected, and virtually guaranteed to become president once he took the oath, but he wasn't president until he went through that formality. Lee is virtually guaranteed to become a Phillie, but that doesn't actually happen until both teams give the agreement their final OK. Until that happens, he is on the Indians' roster.  ShaleZero (talk) 20:43, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phillies? 

message: Lee's a Mariner now.  You all can stop the bidding war.
:He's not a Mariner until the trade actually happens. Blahblah32blahblah (talk) 21:38, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: (ec)No he's not, the deal is still pending physicals. Show me one report where it says the deal's done and I'll stop until then it's not done.--Giants27(Contribs|WP:CFL) 21:39, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Mariners

message: This morning we saw quite a flurry of editing on this page, as there was a report that a deal was close to send Lee to the Yankees.  Many wanted to be the one to change Lee's team affiliation.  Now, reports are suggesting the Mariners are backing away from the deal.  As of now, it looks like it's off.  Maybe it'll happen, maybe it won't.
Let this be a lesson to everyone: wait until there's an official deal in place before making changes.  It just creates a huge mess, and sometimes doesn't come to pass.  --Muboshgu (talk) 19:58, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, now it's supposed to be the Rangers.  Remember, the Rangers have a pending sale, and are not able to take on much salary.  There are financial issues that could easily see this deal fall through.  Nothing is official until it's official.  I will consider continued changing of his team status as vandalism. --Muboshgu (talk) 21:34, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to go ahead and argue he still isn't a Ranger and we should go back to this mornings version. Why? He's still on the MLB roster for Seattle. Also, Wikipedia is not a news source, so we don't need up to the week stuff on the page. However, for pragmatic reasons, I say we leave the page as is (that is other editors will come edit it every 5 minutes no matter how many warnings we put up). 018 (talk) 22:44, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I used that same reasoning when I tried to keep Nick Adenhart listed as one of the 25 men on the active roster after his death, before the Angels replaced him.  You can imagine that argument did not sit well with others.  I'd say that in this case, with the GM's openly talking about how the trade is done, and with Lee and Smoak taken out of tonight's lineups (and as a Yankee fan, can I say how happy I am he got traded before he was scheduled to pitch against us tonight?) so they can presumably meet with their new teams, the website is likely lagging behind the news, and the paperwork has probably been finalized in the commissioner's office. --Muboshgu (talk) 22:48, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Yeah, how dare we adhere to the facts, nothing more and nothing less. --Muboshgu (talk) 23:20, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  A message to every wanna be journalist trying to break news on Wikipedia 

message: I just took it out, because we don't know if this will have an impact.  CC Sabathia's wife was said to strongly prefer San Francisco this time two years ago, remember.  If Lee signs with the Yankees, this is all about nothing.  If he cites it as a reason for signing with a different team, then that's a different story. --Muboshgu (talk) 23:22, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I know i have a vested interest in this, but why would this be removed since the topic never said it could/would decide Lee's choice about signing next year?Red3biggs (talk) 00:03, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This falls under WP:NOTNEWS as it isn't of lasting notability regarding the subject, unless of course he comes out and says it's the reason he chose not to sign with the Yankees. --Muboshgu (talk) 21:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kristen Lee's experience in the visitng wives section of Yankee Stadium 

message: I hate how moronic this place gets any time a player changes teams.  He's a Philadelphia Phillie. He plays for the Phillies. He is NOT a free agent. The ONLY thing it is pending is a physical. A deal this far into it has only not happened like 0.0000000001% of the time. He picked out a number, for God's sake. If he wasn't on the team, why the hell would he have a number? All this does is make Wikipedia inaccurate for a day. What the hell's the harm in updating it now? If his leg falls off when he takes his physical, then you can edit it and say he's a free agent again.Richjenkins (talk) 20:49, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand the random IP's trying to break news, but I don't get how people make reasoned arguments that he's not a free agent when a deal is only agreed to, and therefore not finalized.  It's not finalized.  "0.0000000001% of the time" is enough to invoke WP:CRYSTAL. That's all I'll say on the matter. --Muboshgu (talk) 04:20, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

text: Find a source stating that he has signed a contract. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:36, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

text: Article seems accurate to me. FFS, what's wrong with it the way it is? It mentions the deal with the Phillies, but it doesn't change from "free agent" to "member of Phillies" because he's not officially on the team yet. Try the official roster on mlb.com if you don't believe us. Enigmamsg 07:27, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "All this does is make Wikipedia inaccurate for a day." is in direct contradiction of WP:V: "Wikipedia must never be a first publisher.". If we are the first to say that he has officially signed a contract and passed a physical, we become a secondary source, which "rely on primary sources for their material, often making analytic or evaluative claims about them". This falls outside the bounds of "no original research", because Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, is by definition a tertiary source. — KV5 • Talk •  13:06, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Just as ridiculous today as you were yesterday. "The Phillies strayed from their general guideline for pitchers Monday when they reached agreement with Lee on a five-year, guaranteed $120 million contract with a vesting option for a sixth year."  As of now, Cliff Lee is a member of the Philadelphia Phillies, the edit warring and need for page protection by those removing this info one some bizarre grounds of waiting to see a name on a dotted line is bound for the WP:LAME Hall of Fame. Tarc (talk) 13:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not so, as it's not an edit war, and you're still wrong. — KV5 • Talk •  13:48, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it is quite so, it is a shame that you have duped people into protecting this page for you.  A contract has been agreed to, that makes one a part of the team.  No amount of your "2+2==5" style of argumentation changes that reality. Tarc (talk) 13:50, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Protecting it for me? I didn't request the protection, and I'm an administrator, so I could have protected it myself if I saw fit. That being said, I'll reiterate to you that Cliff Lee is not on the Phillies roster and ask you to take your personal attacks elsewhere. — KV5 • Talk •  13:52, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because a particular team webpage has not yet been updated is not proof that he isn't now a member of a team, that's some serious logic fail there.  We go by what reliable sources say, and I'd expect an administrator to understand that. Tarc (talk) 13:55, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, we do go by what reliable sources say. Reliable sources say that the final contract agreement is pending a physical. And for the record, even ESPN's roster acknowledges that he's not on the team yet, regardless of what the article says. Re-read the notes in the above sections about hedging terms in the media. Thanks. — KV5 • Talk •  14:00, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Tarc, I honestly don't know where you've been the last few years, but the policy has always been to wait until the deal is official to declare the player part of the team. There's nothing new here, and KV5 or anyone else didn't need to "dupe" anybody. Did you miss the LeBron James, CC Sabathia signings, as well as every other recent major signing in sports? Enigmamsg 15:12, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm the one who requested page protection and I can honestly say KV5 has not duped me. --Muboshgu (talk) 17:09, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  He's been signed, FFS 

message: As Red3Biggs suggested before, and as has been done in some past cases, I think it would make sense to add a sentence to the end of the lead mentioning that Lee has agreed to terms with the Phillies. Enigmamsg 15:19, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be fine with that. Referenced, of course. — KV5 • Talk •  15:39, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to add it soon if there are no objections. Enigmamsg 16:44, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That should be fine. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:52, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, as long as it says "agreed to" or something else that makes it clear it isn't finalized.--Muboshgu (talk) 17:08, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

text: You are right.   Can an admin unlock? --Muboshgu (talk) 17:25, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll let Enigmaman do the unlocking so I don't get into a wheel war, but I updated it at least. — KV5 • Talk •  17:29, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess we can also put the Phillies pic back in the infobox.  And with this saga finished, I can always bookmark those vandalized versions of the page as I long for what could have been. --Muboshgu (talk) 17:34, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Enigmamsg 18:02, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding a sentence to the lead 

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thread_title: File:Cliff Lee With The Indians.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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