Talk:Anarchism/Archive 4

message: The article has just undergone another rewrite, so I thought this was a good time to archive the talk again. --Sam 10:39, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)

message: jack said; There is however a large, popular youth movement among anarchists which does advocate a state of disorder and mayhem, similar to the current circumstance in Somalia, or periods of lawlessness throughout history.
Sam said; #I'd like to see some specific references talking about this "large popular youth movement" because I see little of no evidence of it. There might be many people who call themselves anarchists, but I wouldn't call it popular, or a large movement. --Sam
Jack said; :# Two words, Punk rock.
:Punk rock was/is a music/fashion movement, not, of itself, anything to do with anarchism. Before it was edited out I stated that the earlier punk rock bands such as the Sex Pistols appropriated some anarchist imagery for it's 'shock value', in much the same way as The Clash wore Red Brigade teeshirts and Siouxsie and the Banshees used the swastika, but nobody would seriously suggest that Mr.Strummer actually supported German Terrorism or that Miss Ballion was really a nazi. 
:Up until Crass appeared most bands that used the word 'Anarchy' did it to upset their parents and wind up the local policeman, Crass however used the medium of punk rock to promote 'serious' anarchist ideas, particularly anarcho-pacifism and most centrally the idea that There is no authority but yourself (which, at the end of the day, just about sums up everything, I think, that needs to be said about anarchism- ie, it's about self organising and personal responsibility). Spend some time looking at some of Crass' literature, or the ideas of some of the other anarcho punk bands. Whether you agree with them or not, they certainly don't promote the mindless destructiveness you seem to be saying that they do.
:But leaving aside Crass and the anarcho-punks, even the 'mindless chaos' punks are not seriously advocating  the lawlessness of Somalia or albania (actually due more to the chaos of a power vacuum as would be governments and gangsters vie for control than the true meaning of 'anarchy'), or if they are it's the 'shock your parents' pose all over again, most of them would no doubt run a mile if such a situation came to their shopping mall... Though I'm out of touch with the younger punk scene now, in my day the drugs, glue and spray paint brigades didn't advocate ANY kind of serious political action beyond 'get pissed, destroy'.quercus robur 12:34, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. Now if you simply leave out the dismissal of it as 'shock the parents' anarchism, unequal to your own, you'd fail to have an objection. I am quite familiar with crass, and their insipid philosophies and monstrous attempts at song. I have seen many a crass poster, read the lyrics from a couple of their albums, and engaged in many a drunken conversation with their fans about their "idealic, utopian" lifestyle. That sort of thing may be a portion of the punk rock anarchist philosophy, but it certainly isn't a typical one. I happen to like punk music, and still listen to it. Anarchy in the U.K. was just a tad removed from the sort of fodder crass was selling.  I must say, you fellows are quite a charming lot to disuss with, you seem to miss the forest thru the trees. In any case, were half way there, you do see the trees! Jack 12:49, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not 'dismissing' the 'shock your parents' punks, they were some of my best friends, but what I'm saying is that they weren't advocating anarchy, they were 'advocating' getting pissed and taking drugs. Now I've got nothing against the article containing something like 'some punks who got pissed all the time and spray painted walls described themselves as anarchists', but it is pushing it a bit to state that an (un-named) large anarchist youth movement is advocating the lawlessness of Somalia and Albania as if it was some serious part of the anarchist philosophy. BTW, please can we have a citation of exactly which punk bands have stated that Somalia, albania, etc is a good thing? quercus robur 13:22, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: See what you think of the current edit. Jack 20:04, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that looks much better :-) quercus robur 20:00, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Punk rock