Talk:Natural bobtail

message: Added an external link to some articles by Dr. Bruce Cattanach. I have not yet convinced myself whether he is the same gentleman mentioned in the article's current second paragraph. Once someone is sure, we can update the 'citation needed.' Keesiewonder 12:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.--220.255.7.239 (talk) 11:08, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boxers 

message: There is no literature to suggest that there is a C189G mutation in the Rottweiler, but multiple papers that thy don't have this mutation. http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/100/2/236.full If it would be a successful test it would be a crossbreed or false positive.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.125.48.199 (talk) 23:57, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rottweiler 

message: I've put in some ALL CAPS HTML COMMENTS about not adding/removing breeds from the sourced lists without new reliable sources. That will hopefully cut down on the bad edits here. Almost every single change to this article for over a year was either a wrong edit, or people reverting wrong edits.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  12:15, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bad edits 

message: Orivet.com, a pet genetic testing company, provides a "Nature bob tail (short tail phenotype)" test , for the following breeds: Koolie, Schipperke, Swedish Lapphund, Australian Shepherd, Dobermann, Rottweiler, Miniature Australian Shepherd, Australian Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog, Brittany Spaniel, Jack Russell Terrier, Parson Russell Terrier, Pembroke Welsh Corgi, Tenterfield Terrier, Swedish Vallhund.  The description of the test is "Tests for the T-box varitaion and is an autosomal dominant trait.  Any dog that tests as positive will show a tail of variable length. Gene: Gene: T on Chromosome 1. Variant Detected: Base Substitution C>G. Severity: Scale 1 has a very low degree of severity. It is a trait and so is tested based on preference, not usually for health concerns. Mode of Inheritance: Autosomal Dominant. Test Overview: Natural bobtail can occur in several breeds, and the gene for this seems to be inherited in an autosomal dominant fashion. When a pup has two copies of the defective gene, this is lethal to the development of the foetus and the pup will die before it can be born. One copy of the gene can result in no tail, a normal length tail, or any length of tail in between (i.e. a shortened tail). Occasionally the tail may be kinked. Very rarely there may be other developmental abnormalities, e.g. defects of the anus – although studies have not demonstrated a clear relationship between the occurrence of these defects and the bobtail gene, as they can occasionally occur in dogs without this gene as well. Studies also have shown no reduced survival of litters of Australian Shepherd natural bobtail pups compared to normal tail pups to 8 weeks, and no increased incidence of severe spinal defects as is sometimes reported. Natural bobtail litters may be slightly smaller in size, showing that the pups with 2 copies of the mutant gene are not surviving through the gestation period."
They actually cite a a journal source (without the journal title, but a PubMed ID is provided): J Hered. 2009 Mar-Apr; 100(2):236-40. [PubMed: 18854372]
So, that source is probably worth looking for.  The fact that some company is selling a test to dog fanciers isn't a reliable source that the Dobermann, etc., actually has this trait. 
It's unclear to me if this is meant to test for the C189G mutation or something else. 
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  08:49, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It is in reference to the Journal of Heredity, Volume 100, Issue 2, March-April 2009, Pages 236–240 Study "Ancestral T-Box Mutation Is Present in Many, but Not All, Short-Tailed Dog Breeds" https://academic.oup.com/jhered/article/100/2/236/851021 Darkashadows (talk) 22:37, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  More dog breeds, according to Orivet 

message: Hello , unfortunately all of sources you have cited for your additions to this page fall short of Wikipedia’s standards for sources, please see WP:Reliable sources. Do you have better sources to cite this information? If not it will need to be removed as by our policies everything on Wikipedia needs to be cited to reliable sources. Regards, Cavalryman (talk) 22:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Cavalryman, thank you for your message, I appreciate your feedback and welcome message to the Wiki community. PS I also love your other posts as well. Can you provide sources which show that the Rottweiler and Dobermann do not carry the C189G mutation and why you believe the sources I have provided fall short. The references I have provided are from some of the leading DNA testing companies in the world which all confirm that both the Rottweiler and Dobermann are associated with the C189G Natural Bobtail Mutation. Both the Dobermann and the Rottweiler have been DNA verified as being Natural Born Bobtails carrying the C189G mutation. So I am confused why leading DNA companies would be classed as unreliable sources, whilst the study which tested limited dogs (156 short tailed dogs) is considered to be the primary source for determining which breeds carry the gene. What many people misunderstand with this study is it was not done to show which breeds carried the C189G trait, but to show that if a dog carried the trait then it would have a shortened tail, as explained in the study "In the 17 breeds in which the C189G mutation was observed, there was a perfect correlation between this mutation and the short-tail phenotype" I am a big believer in facts and documentation and have never posted anything anywhere which I have not been able to support. There are multiple references that both the Dobermann and Rottweiler have always had Natural Bobtails. The test that Orivet and the other leading DNA companies test for is the C189G trait for the Natural Bobtail. I am not 100% certain how to upload jpg and PDF into the article which show the association of the C189G trait in these breeds. I am no scientist, but I have gained a very strong understanding of DNA over the past decade, and I personally would not consider a study which has such low sample rates as they had as definitive proof to show which breeds carried the C189G, considering as I explained above that was not the purpose of the study in the first place. In some instances they tested only minimal amount of short tailed dogs, some of the numbers being low single digits, in the case of the Dobermann it was not even tested. The fact is, which can be shown by DNA tests both the Rottweiler and the Dobermann have been confirmed as carrying the C189G mutation and I would be happy to provide copies of these tests if you let me know how best to upload. Kindest Regards DarkashadowsDarkashadows (talk) 00:02, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Darkashadows, thank you for the kind words. Basically company’s own websites are not considered reliable sources because there is no editorial or academic oversight, and they have commercial considerations in publishing what they do. Further, vetbook.org appears to be user generated like Wikipedia, so cannot be considered reliable because anyone can make additions (like Wikipedia, we don’t cite ourselves), please read WP:UGC. I know from personal experience here that it can be frustrating waiting for reliable sources to catch up with current research or events, but I have come to understand that it is the best way as it avoids errors, promotional content and occasionally hoaxes. Re the Hytönen et al paper, on the surface it appears to me to be a reliable secondary source. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 01:47, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent additions