Talk:Double bass/Archive 1

message: I am suggesting that any references of "cello" be changed to "'cello."  The proper name of the 'cello is "violoncello", however, most musicians now refer to it as "'cello".  Thus the apostrophe is needed.  I had tried being bold, but it was revereted.  I would now like some opinions on the change.  Thanks!
Kntrabssi 21:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oppose.  Common name is "cello," without "violon-" or apostrophe.  Badagnani 21:34, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: [shrug] I don't really care either way; I suppose 'cello is the correct snob version, but so what?. In other words, I won't go out of my way to change either one to the other. --ILike2BeAnonymous 01:07, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we are trying to be as accurate as possible, than the apostrophe would be needed.  The common name of the violoncello is 'cello, but apostrophe just died out at some point.  In most orchestration and theory texts you will see the instrument with the apostrophe.  Kntrabssi 02:14, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proper Name of "Cello"

message: "...and the double bass is pitched a minor sixth lower"
This is poorly worded.  To say that it is pitched a minor sixth lower makes it seem as if it is an Eb instrument, istead of saying that its range extends a minor sixth lower than that of the 'cellos.  I am rewriting this.
Kntrabssi 06:26, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Transposition

message: Just changed the bow images to use new image markup and new table markup.  I decided to use a right-floating table with all 4 images in it as thumbnails.  This automagically captions the images, which I think is neat.  YMMV.  See these pages for description of the syntax:
* Tables: on Meta-Wikipedia, http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_User%27s_Guide:_Using_tables
* Images: on WP, Wikipedia:Extended image syntax
-- AndrewKepert 02:28, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Image thumbnails

message: The article say that this comes from the frequent doubling of the cello line in many Classical works. I have always thought this to be wrong, instead I believe the origin of the word actually comes from the convention of speaking of octaves in terms of the length of organ pipes. The range of the bass is considered 16 foot as opposed to the cello's 8 foot bass, this explains why it is double. Has anyone else heard of this. The doubling reason just sounds fabricated...
Nchalk 15:50, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed - same goes for "not having a separate bass part".  I would rewrite the whole "Bass tuning" section, since the tuning has been mentioned twice in the article already (at my count), and it doesn't even mention alternate tuning (e.g. solo tuning 1 tone higher).  Overall this article could do with serious tightening up.   For example, the opening section is a ramble as people have added their favourite factoids and inappropriate web links.  I will put it on my todo list, unless anyone else dives in.  --Andrew Kepert 23:51, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Re: Origin of the name 'Double Bass'

message: I'd propose a re write (that re works most of the existing info in the article) that is structured roughly as follows....
*Introduction
*Construction 
Need good pictures of violin style bass and Bussetto Style Bass(Andrew you Viol type bass and bow pics are great BTW)
*Tuning
Mention solo tuning (Canadian chap who tunes in 5 Ths) Simanel book 3 I think touches on this as well 3 String Bass Tuning !
*Double Bass Bow
*Technique
 
*Contemporary Status of the Instrument... The Bass today ???
Talk about how the bass is used in many forms of music from bluegrass, Blues, jazz, some rock bands (Primus comes to mind) rockabilly classical contemporary and even solo double bass (François Rabbath, Garry Karr Stanley Clarke etc) compositions renaissance if you like of playing that Garry Karr and international society of Bassists (via it's international competitions etc) and  others brought about from about 1960 on?
*Related Instruments
Electric Bass Upright electric double bass
*Expansion of the double Bass's role in various Musical environments
Blue Grass Bass
Classical Double Bass repertoire
Jazz Double Bass
How the bass was used to develop the walking line (Written musical example of this?) Duke Ellington Ray Brown big bands, scott La Faro Bill Evans and the trio setting, Oscar Peterson trio. Stanley Clark Miroslave Vitos Jazz Rock. ECM players.
*Double Bassists
Lists as they exist?
These things sort of link together because of the viol influence
Re: Origin of the name 'Double Bass' . I have read this often that the bass doubles Cello etc do we research this further?
--Steve Abrahall 11:53, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Re write of Double Bass article 

message: Hi Steve,
Sounds good - your proposal for sections sounds about right: a "Construction" section was in my mind when I made my comment earlier.  Maybe call it "The instrument" and include construction, bow, tuning, history/development as subsections (maybe not in that order).  I am happy to contribute as I can -- this page has been on and off my todo since I started on WP, but I have only tinkered at the edges.  Do you want to split off a working subpage like Double bass/rewrite July 2004 to house the work in progress?  This way major rebalancing can be done without fear of screwing up the page.
My main feeling on the content of the article is that in the areas I personally don't know much about (e.g. bluegrass) it doesn't inform.  The same is probably true in areas that I do know  about (e.g. the instrument, tunings, classical, jazz), but it is less frustrating.  Why are those notable players notable - did they develop the technique, lead to a change in the style of the music, display virtuosity, play with notable line-ups, influence others?  Your ideas above for Jazz show that you are thinking similarly -- telling the story.
There is also the possibility of splitting off some sections into separate pages:
* The lists of players, either as list pages or category pages like :Category:Jazz bassists.  This doesn't stop one introducing players in the text of the article where they are relevant.  If it was done in a list page (or within this page) then we should try to have annotate the list as much as possible.  e.g.
**Paul Chambers (1935 — 1969) jazz bassist involved with Bebop and Hard bop jazz in the 1950s and 1960s.  Played with Miles Davis and John Coltrane.
* The styles of bass playing (maybe not yet)
However, I don't think splitting the page should be done "just because".  I prefer longer, more encompassing articles, like would occur in a printed encyclopaedia.  (A lot of WP is fragmented definitions.)  However list pages/categories have their own functions for navigation.
This may go beyond the simple restructuring that you were thinking of, but it could start with a restructure and then develop.
--Andrew Kepert 03:16, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite: Andrew's thoughts

message: Andrew I've taken your good idea and built a stubb! I 
Lets feed it watch it grow!
--Steve Abrahall 13:35, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite: More From Steve

message: I hope anybody doesn't mind if I start contributing to the rewrite.  It'll be my first wiki article, but I'm a professional player, so I hope that I can make a good contribution.
Looks like it hasn't been active since last year, but the double bass article is (imho) in need of a serious rewrite.  Hopefully there will be some more contributors.
I'll see if I can get a picture of my violin form bass up.
Omniphile 00:24, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite: From Michael (Omniphile)

message: hey guys ... I was thinking about starting on WP also on that page. Are you still motivated ? 
Following on Michael's idea, if all of us take photos of our basses (including zooms on specific parts) we should end up with a nice usable database of photos, no ? tradora 14:29, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite: From Régis

message: *Oppose.  Work with what we have.  This article (and all others at Wikipedia) are collaborative in nature.  If you disagree with text that exists, modify or delete it and other editors will decide if they agree.  A complete rewrite is not advisable as the article as it exists took a lot of work over a period of months (if not years) by dozens of editors.  Badagnani 06:40, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite: From Badagnani

message: You can't go past
Chuck Ralston's collection of everything there is to know about Scott LaFaro
What else is there to say? You just have to listen ...
Why does contrabass redirect here? Contrabass is a huge saxophone-oid.
Oops, apparently terms like that only refer to the size/pitch of a particular instrument, and not to a particular instrument.
in that case, it still shouldn't redirect there.. but might have a disambiguation page that basically says contrabass is the lowest-pitched instrument in a variety of families.
:Perhaps there should be a disambiguation (I don't know much about the technicalities of Wikipedia), but I do know alot about music. Contrabass should most definitely redirect here because "contrabass" is pretty much the equivalent of "double bass" in Europe. Original music and scores, depending on their nationality, almost always address the double bass as "contrabass". If you asked any professional muscian what a contrabass was they would probably tell you about the double bass. Bottesini 15:30, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  LaFaro 

message: In my book by Bob Haggard (famous American jazz bass player), it says that the position when fingering 'F' on the bottom string (or Bb on the A string etc) is called the 'Half position'. (HP)  and the first position is a semitone up from this. Is this an Americanism? Any comments?--Light current 03:09, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The position closest to the nut is called Half-Position in most Double Bass methods, including Simandl and Bille. There are other half-positions which lie in-between whole positions as you play higher up the fingerboard. It is not an "Americanism" at all. Some methods (i.e. Eugene Cruft's in the UK) eliminate the so-called half-positions for the sake of clarity but the term is very much in  common use. The name of the American jazz bassist who wrote that method you cite was Bob Haggart, not Haggard. He studied with Fred Zimmerman and his naming of the positions corresponds to Simandl's. --Steve Boisen 02:46, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Half position or first postion? 

message: This article states emphatically that the Double Bass is a member of the Viola Da Gamba family and not that of the violin and while this is a common theory, it is not without dispute. The Double Bass shares many features of the violin family that are not present on most viols (i.e. fretless fingerboard, four strings, "f" shaped sound holes). It's internal contrsuction is much closer to the violin than the viol and one could easliy argue that the chief features it does share with the viol family (tuning in fourths, sloping shoulders) are presnt to make the instrument easier to play rather than any true ties to the viol family. Paul Brun argues this point effectively in his book History of the Double Bass. I think this article should be ammended to show both veiws of the instrument's development. Many modern refernce books place the Double Bass in the violin family and I don't think this is wrong.
I also think the terms hoss bass and bunkhouse bass are silly and not in common use.
--Steve Boisen 02:44, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to amend the article Steve regarding the DB ancestry, if you've got the book, youre the ideal person!--Light current 08:25, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problems stating the nature of the dispute in terms of NPOV.  While the terms hoss bass and bunkhouse bass might appear silly to us, they appear to be legitimate slang terms. --Viriditas  | Talk 03:30, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

text: What about Bull fiddle?That quite silly. But I dont care what they're called - I dont play one (yet)--Light current 18:01, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Viol or Violin 

message: What is the point of having a picture of the german bow being held (we already have a picture of a german bow, so the problem doesn't lie there) when it is being held incorrectly? I removed it but it was re-added. If the pcitrue is wrong there is no point in having it, especially when we have two...
:Please sign your posts.  This was responded to earlier by someone who said that there is no fixed way of holding a double bass bow and that the picture, while not showing the most common grip, isn't necessarily wrong. Badagnani 18:56, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  German Bow Picture 

message: Link to Thomas Martin redirects to a wrong page. The correct person (double bass player and luthier!) has a web site here http://www.thomasmartin.co.uk/ - I don't know how to create a disambiguation page, nor much about the subject to write the article. Could someone help?
Lanttuloora 20:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thomas Martin 

message: Just saw this site (www.silviodallatorre.com)added to the links & references section; I'm just wondering whether others feel this might be self-promotion. (I'm assuming this link was added by the site's author, given that it sounded like a non-native English speaker.) Could be, but I'm not sure. What do you think? --ILike2BeAnonymous 00:58, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked it out.  This was added under the list of players who tune in fifths.  Doing so on the double bass is so rare, and this player seems notable (even though the instrument he's using is actually a "bassetto," some kind of obsolete small sized double bass tuned between a double bass and a cello), so even if he or a friend of his added him, it's definitely worth keeping in there.  Badagnani 01:10, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh, I see:  Dalla Torre is linked twice now in the article:  once in the section discussing players who tune in fifths, then again in the "links" section.  Not sure how much I like that idea but the website (though ostensibly a personal site dedicated to one performer) has some good information on other little known bass-related topics.  Badagnani 02:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, yes, it's a nice site with what looks like a lot of good information. That's not what I've got a quibble with. Oh, well, no big deal. --ILike2BeAnonymous 02:39, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  silviodallatorre.com: self-promotion? 

message: There's been a lot of back-and-forth lately over the issue of how far below the 'cello the double bass is tuned. (It's a minor sixth.) I think I've resolved this with my latest edit, which gives us the best of both worlds:
*The double bass is so named because it was used to play a part an octave below the 'cello, and
*The double bass is actually tuned a minor sixth below the 'cello, unless it has a C extension, in which case it is tuned an octave below.
So I think this is a lot better than before. --ILike2BeAnonymous 20:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually it is incorrect to say the bass is tuned ANY interval below the 'cello.  The bass has a different tuning, as we all know.  All you can say is that with a standard set-up, the bottom string is a minor 6th (8 semitones) below that the of the 'cello.  I think it best to say what the tuning is in terms of pitches, and then note that its range extends so far beneath that of the 'cello. (and that this makes it a useful instrument to "double" the cello part.)  Tuning is a red herrring here. Andrew Kepert 08:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the "Naming" section to incorporate your suggestion. --ILike2BeAnonymous 19:14, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Kntrabssi's recent change (removing mention of tuning entirely from "Naming" section) is even better. --66.52.186.151 19:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor 6th or octave below 'cello? 

message: Now I have your attention. Where the neck joins the body Am I right in assuming that this bit on a DB is called the heel?. Its not mentioned on the page--Light current 21:06, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have never heard it referred to as a heel, most likely because I don't think I've ever heard it specifically referred to by a name. I don't think it is significant to anyone other than luthiers. Bottesini 15:23, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

text: You're right. It is an important refernce point for your LH in terms of whether you have a D or Eb neck, but i guess you'll just have to find a chart or something because like i said, "I don't think I've ever heard it specifically referred to by a name." Bottesini 15:45, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where the rubber meets the road

message: For what it's worth I was reading above about the various names - some silly, some silly but often useed and I realize  that part of the issue of being a double bass player is being taken seriosly! And yes there is this issue of humor ...(not all bad in it's self) 
When I first read the wikipedia DB entry I had to edit it because it was bassed on an old dictionary definition (groves I think) that was sort of dissmissive and negative in it's tone, and it's an attitude you can often find in people ... Untill you rosin up the bow and blow them away with a bit of Bottesini or a fine Jazz solo.
I'm thinking do we need something about the social preception of Bass players? Or am I gazeing at my navel?
PS I have been called a Double Bass liberationist in the past!
--Steve Abrahall
:It gets more interesting when you can vibrate peoples (and your own) insides with amplified DB or EUBs! Lovely! (Its also good for constipation, Ive heard!) Thats serious!--Light current 22:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Thankfully Beethoven didn't listen when the critics said the bass wasn't that agile!!!  Kntrabssi 05:38, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I didnt know Beethoven was an expert on constipation!--Light current 15:37, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More on Bass Names

message: Just added to the article:  a double bass with a low B fifth string?  This must be extremely rare.  Electric bass, yes, but for double bass?  Can other bass verify this?  How about a high fifth C string?  I've seen this, but not for classical bass (a bluegrass musician had one).  Also, it's just been added that the double bass "no longer has" frets.  Did it ever have them?  Badagnani 21:49, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, there are basses used by classical musicians that have a low B string instead of an extension. In my opinion, it makes the neck feel awkward as it is considerably wider (yes, i have played one before). I'm not sure which european symphony it is (like the berlin philharmonic or something of that nature) but there is one that all of the bass players in it have a low B string, and i have heard a mozart recording by them before (i think it was his adagio and fugue) and the difference is amazing. although i'm not saying they don't exist, i have never personally seen a orchestral bass with a high C string. while i dont believe that any variation of the contemporary double bass had frets, it may be referring to its root instrument which most likely had gut frets. Bottesini 03:13, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  B string 

message: Because the pictures have been missing for so long and it just looked horrible, i just went and added some myself. I use a french bow, so if someone feels that the pictures aren't any good, go ahead and add some of your own. The pics seem to fit well with the section and are fairly good; at least the bow hold (with my limited experience with a german bow) seems to be correct. Bottesini 21:47, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added german bow pics 

message: Right now i am wondering why there is a "bow" section and "double bass bow" section. These should probably be combined. I'm not sure where it should be mentioned, probably in either of the bow sections, but it would be nice if something was written about bow quivers. I would combine the articles myself and add the thing about the quiver, but i'm not savvy ebough in the ways of wikipedia to do so without screwing something up. Once the sections have been combined, maybe the description of the bow quiver should say something along the lines of: "A common double bass accessory is the bow quiver. The quiver is usually made of leather and is tied onto the tailpiece of the instrument by straps. The bow can be safely placed in the quiver in order to free the right hand in comlicated or extended pizzacato sections and the bow can easily be drawn again when it is required." My wording is a little messed up, someone could rephrase it. -Bottesini 02:07, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two bow sections? 

message: An anon just added that "many" European double bass players have a fifth (low B) string.  Is it correct to say that "many" have this?  How many is many?  Badagnani 09:53, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could be changed to some if we dont know. That is a fact.--Light current 16:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While it is true that there alot of european players that have a low B string, it is misleading to say "many" simply because it seems to imply that a majority of them do, which is very untrue. While they aren't uncommon, "most" players use a standard four-string bass. Bottesini 16:58, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fifth string