Talk:Hezbollah/Archive 3

message: There is written:
During the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict Ayman al-Zawahiri, Al Qaeda's deputy leader, called for Muslims to rise up in a holy war against Israel and join the fighting in Lebanon.[93
 
maybe some palestinian communists want to fight with Isral too.Does it mean they have link to Hezbollah. I think this sentence show Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda have the same enemy. But their religion, idealogy,  strategy, tactics, organizatio are so different that maybe they fight in the cases like Iraq. So I think there is only US and Israel who claim these two organization are related and the others thnk they are compeletly different.--212.6.32.3 18:57, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure they operate like any other big independent enterprises: they may be competitors, they may have huge differences, but from time to time they find their interests are served by cooperation. The first wartime example that comes to mind is China during the second war - in the former, the Nationalists and Communists cooperated against the Japanese, then went back to fighting each other. JiHymas@himivest.com 19:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OKay Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization and has no links to AL-Qaeda. Wake up people, that is just propganda to further deminize them.
Edit War! See the versions: 
*19:38, 2 August 2006 JiHymas@himivest.com (->Al Qaeda (reduce editorializing)) 
*19:35, 2 August 2006 JiHymas@himivest.com (->Al Qaeda (remove lengthy quotations, retain refs & redLinks)) 
*19:29, 2 August 2006 Bertilvidet (revert - some of the presented POV's may be relevant, but should be presented at this, we can not have a long list of what various conspiration theories within conservative think tanks)
*19:06, 2 August 2006 84.105.186.230 (Talk) (→Allegations of links to Al-Qaeda) 
User "84.105.186.230" posted some links and extremely lengthy extracts from some opinion pieces; Bertilvidet reverted them while I was editing them. What should we be doing about these things? JiHymas@himivest.com 19:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Your edits seem very reasonable, and did indeed improve the article. Thanks. Bertilvidet 19:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Link to  Al-Qaeda

message: We have an entire section with 'Links to other armed groups' in the title and the only group mentioned is Al-Qaeda. I suggest we start another sub-section called 'Links to Hamas' which should be much more interesting. We could start it off with a quote from http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33566.pdf
:Hamas. Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah’s leader, suggested that the Hezbollah operation might provide a way out of the crisis in Gaza because Israel had negotiated with Hezbollah indirectly in the past although it is refusing to negotiate with Hamas now. He said that the only way the soldiers would be returned would be through a prisoner exchange. Although Hezbollah and Hamas are not organizationally linked, Hezbollah has acted in some ways as a mentor or role model for Hamas, which has sought to emulate the Lebanese group’s political and media success. Hamas’s kidnaping of the Israeli soldier follows a different Hezbollah example. Hezbollah reportedly also has provided terrorist training for Hamas, and the two groups share
the goal of driving Israel from occupied territories and ultimately from Israel proper; both maintain close ties with Iran.
and see where it leads. 
What do other editors think? JiHymas@himivest.com 17:24, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This editor agrees, noteworthy and interesting - as long as it is factual. Mceder 19:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Sa.vakilian has put a minor edit on this section with an edit note "Please brief this quotation". What parts of the quotation do you feel are extraneous? JiHymas@himivest.com 18:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Subsection : Links to Hamas ? 

message: We can write a new section about relation, operations and negotiations between Hezbollah and Israel.--Sa.vakilian 04:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of the article's about Hezbollah & Israel anyway. What are you proposing? To move other sections into an 'Israel & Hezbollah' section? Or to fill this section with new material? If the former, which sections? If the latter, what topics for the new material? JiHymas@himivest.com 04:56, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hezbollah and Israel

message: I modified the sentence about this a bit to make it NPOV. I think that to denote it as a terrorist act is very POV. I deleted the sentence that it is widely regarded as the start of modern terrorism. I think that that claim should be sourced. Count Iblis 00:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I liked your change. According to the referenced 1983 Beirut barracks bombing article, it is thought to be one of the first instances of suicide bombing, but the article provides no citation to support that argument. I'm sure I could come up with a lot of counter-examples if I tried! As far as being terrorism ... well, the American judge called it terrorism, http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/30/iran.barracks.bombing/ , so while we can argue POV, at least we can argue authoritative POV! JiHymas@himivest.com 00:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks! The ruling of the judge could be included in the reference list. Saying that a US judge ruled it to be a terror attack is not POV because then any possible POV refers not to the actual event (the bombings) but to the judge making his ruling... Count Iblis 00:48, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marine barracks  bombing 

message: This article becomes too long. Please move some part of it to a new article.--Sa.vakilian 07:40, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a fair bit of duplication of statements (e.g., resolution 1559 is mentioned roughly 1559 times, despite having its own article) which could be condensed, but I don't really see any good candidates for sub-articles. Any ideas? JiHymas@himivest.com 18:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Too Long

message: I haven't read this thoroughly yet, but it's testimony to the Senate titled "Hezbollah: Financing Terror Through Criminal Enterprise" with lots of references. A first glance suggests that it's got a lot of background that will be useful for the article. On the web at http://hsgac.senate.gov/_files/LevittTestimony.pdf JiHymas@himivest.com 06:29, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Source Material

message: Who are the people that constitute Hezbollah both the military and political wing? The organization looks to be a national group but, the media is describing as a regional group made up of people from all over the mid-east.
I've heard reports anywhere from 4-20 cabinet members are outright Hezbollah members.  THAT list woulds probably be the most helpful to us - everything else is speculation since the Hezbollah are such a tricky bunch.  They are state sponsored by Iran, heavily harbored by Syria, and have forced themselves into Lebanon with the help of the Revolutionary Guards Corps.  They have their strongest presence in those areas.  There is a Hezbollah Iraq faction, but it's no where near as powerful as the one that's been bolstered and training in Lebanon for 6 years.  Outside of that it's difficult to tell where they are because if they make their presence known, they risk being quashed by various interests: either Western or Sunni.  They probably have a medium to light presence in the Americas, Asia/Australia and more heavily in Europe.  Their army has been estimated from 1000-5000 strong.Labaneh 13:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who are Hizbollah 

message: "Russia does not list Hezbollah as a terrorist organization[137], but it does list other radical Islamic Shi'a groups, such as Islamic Jihad,[138] as well as al-Qaeda."
- This sentence is incorrect as al-Qaeda is a Sunni terrorist group. --Coolintro 16:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're quite correct, of course, I've fixed it. JiHymas@himivest.com 17:19, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: al-Qaeda listed as Shi'a

message: but the United States, Canada, and Israel and most civilized countries deem it a terrorist organization.
What does "civilized countries" mean? So I'm just wondering if this expression could be offending, since it puts other countries into the not-yet-civilized countries group. English is not my mother language, so it could be just my misunderstanding. --Pura 20:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Where did you see that?! -- Szvest 18:35, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If such a formulation occurs I believe it should be treated as vandalism. 1) Labelling some countries civilized in contrast to others is deeply racist, and 2) the statement is inaccurate as the mentioned 3 countries are the only ones actually deeming it a terrorist organization. Bertilvidet 18:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not sure if that happened but i just suspect the poster is just trolling. -- Szvest 18:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, someone vandalized the page. I fixed it.  —Banzai! (talk) @ 19:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Had I read the whole artile, it would be very obvious that it was a work of vandalism. Sorry, I should have been more careful. --Pura 20:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: It's more than just 'calling your enemies names'. This has a very practical effect on third parties (who, for instance have to certify that the bank account they've just opened for a customer is not for a Hezbollah customer) as well as for Hezbollah itself - no banking in the States, no visits - and for its supporters (ask that guy in North Carolina who got 150 years in jail for donating $3,500). The practical effect of the designation by the US far exceeds anything the UN could do. JiHymas@himivest.com 20:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Civilized country"? 

message: Its time for some self-praise, buddies. We have really improved this article substantially in a way that could set example, avoiding edit wars and having good debates without uncivility – and this has been about a very controversial organizations in a period of war. Just see how the [looked one month – and more than 2.000 edits - ago]. Keep up the good work! Bertilvidet 18:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bertilvidet, I totally agree with you. I have seen quite some edit wars here on Wikipedia and I am very happy to see that such a delicate article like this is being handled in such a rational way. Good job, everyone. Lets keep it this way. --Splette  Talk 21:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: We are doing a great job

message: I've moved all headings that do not have an "August" date in them somewhere to a new archive. JiHymas@himivest.com 16:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archiving August 7