Talk:Butterfly koi

message: Species?
Are these fish hybrids? Or are they a species - they cant be both can they? Confused. MidgleyDJ 01:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: untitled

message: Longfin are a "breed-hybrid" from two or more discrete breeds and/or strains of the same species "common carp".  Just as the doitsu breed was a breed-hybrid resulting from the crossing of germanic river carp (again: same species as Koi, but a different strain/breed) with Nishikigoi (traditional koi), Longfin are also the result of a wild strain being introduced to one or more domestic breeds of traditional nishikigoi.  Neither of these examples should imply that Longfin or Doitsu have a 50%/50% heritage, as the first-generation offspring(in both examples) were subsequently bred with traditional koi to try and obtain nishikigoi color, while retaining the desired ferrel traits (germanic scale paterns or long fins respectively).  This was done for several subsequent generations, reportedly with much higher cull-ratios than normal nishikigoi breeding.  One suggested explanation for this (the lower reliability that a breed-hybrid will manifest the new breed-phenotype predictably) is that among traditional nishikigoi, many generations of narrowly restricted bloodlines have brought about a far-lower amount of genetic diversity (this is now a scientific fact)... or to put it another way, in pure bloodlines, desireable phenotypes may seem linked to a small handful of simple genotypes (like the dominant & recessive genes that govern human eye color), when in fact those phenotypes are the product of complex combinations of genes that have been made synonymous through "breed-narrowing".  When we introduce the new diversity of a ferrel parent, many genes that the nishikigoi breed had "inbred to complete unison" are now randomly shuffled.  The result is that two seemingly identical red and white Longfin can sometimes create merely 2%-5% of their offspring with that pattern.  The restoration of "breed/trait fidelity" will take many generations of restricted bloodlines, but the result will be champion-grade Longfin Nishikigoi.  This may even happen sooner-than-later if direct genetic trait manipulation in the laboratory becomes possible.
BTW: I tried to avoid explicitly characterizing nishikigoi, Longfin, and ferrel carp as "the same species" so as not to confuse or aggravate readers.  That would be like saying that a wolf is the same species as a AKC Purebred English Setter.Sugarboogy phalanx 05:58, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: From a phylogenetic position they are all the same species. I think this is worth pointing out in the article. Perhaps a better term is breed (as in dog breeds). MidgleyDJ 09:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Research from 2007 has shown that koi are a breed of the amur carp (cyprinus rubrofuscus).US Geological Survey Database Koilover68 (talk) 15:07, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Species/Hybrid Question 

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