Talk:Haydar

message: Haydar is a common Arabic and Persian name. It means Lion. It may also be an epithet of Ali, and evoke Ali in the thoughts of Shi'a Muslims, but that does not mean that Shi'a Muslims can hijack this article to post fulsome praise of Ali. It is not relevant. You guys can set up your own website and praise Ali all you'd like, but WP is an encyclopedia. Zora 04:46, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All, this is a disambiguation page... I am not really judging the information about Ali... I think it could have been NPOVed but that's not the point.  This is a disambugation page and the point is to give a simple and quick reference so people can find the material... elongating this to discuss half a dozen subjects ruins the whole point of a disambiguation page.  If you want to talk about Ali and Haydar then do it on something related to Ali if it fits... but this page should be short and sweet so people can find people called Haydar... gren グレン 12:26, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This should stay as a disambiguation page, not a PoV fork of articles about Ali. Physchim62 (talk) 12:37, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambiguation Page

message: 1) If a name refers only to ONE person, then of course the name article can talk about that person and that person alone. 
2) If the name is overwhelmingly associated with just one person, then we'll  devote the article to that person and add a few lines to the top to point to other uses of the term. 
3) If the name is common to many people, then we put up a page with all the variants listed, so that the encyclopedia user can go to the one he or she really wants. 
Striver seems to want to put the article in the second category -- Haydar refers to Ali whenever not otherwise specified. But ... this was not Ali's name; it is an honorific applied by later Muslims. It is a common name, not something exclusive to Ali. Moreover, it is a common epithet. Muslims adopted the term "lion" for a brave warrior from earlier civilizations; see this Christian-POV site . If you google on "Lion of God", you'll get references to many figures and groups, Christian and Muslim. 
Moreover, Ali is better known under his real name, and has a whole, long article devoted to him. Striver seems to want two main articles devoted to Ali, which is nonsense. If he wants Haydar to be the main Ali article, then Ali ibn Abi Talib should be deleted. 
Striver set up this article originally to bolster his claim that a Pakistani military decoration, the Nishan-E-Haider, is named after Ali. Told that it was named after Haider Ali, he set up this article to make the argument that all Haydars/Haiders refer to Ali. 
Striver also used this tactic in connection with his latest go round on the 9/11 articles -- told that the conspiracy theorists he was referencing were too obscure to count, he set up a slew of articles devoted to the theorists. 
In this case, the article is actually useful -- but as changed into a disambiguation page, not as a ploy in an argument about Pakistani military decorations. Zora 23:45, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name pages 

message: Haider had been a disambig page, but Striver moved most of the names over here and left it a disambig page for Haider only, with only one name, Jörg Haider.  It seems to me that Haider should redirect here.  Other names:
* Ali Haider, a Pakistani singer and actor
* Ali Haydar, a name adopted by scholar Thomas McElwain
I'd suggest before any additional reversions that there be more discussion, or else introduce mediation, perhaps WP:RFC. Шизомби 07:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Other Haydars

message: Based on my understanding of  disambiguation  this is not a disambiguation page--these usually refer to several definitions that have the same or similar 'natural names' that people might otherwise confuse. I think this article is a list and I personally don't know whether it belongs in Wikipedia. If you don't think it belongs, I'd suggest referencing  what wikipedia is not and  What makes a good article Antonrojo 03:18, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A little more detail: My interpretation is that this list is similar to a list of honorifics. If these people share more than a name and form a category of some type (it looks like several people on the list got this as a nickname as a sign of bravery which sounds like an honorific to me), my inclination would be to leave it. On the other hand if it really is just a list of people who have the same name and aren't grouped together logically in some way (like a phone book) I think a disambiguation page would be correct. Antonrojo 03:55, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bro, call it what you want, but the info stays in the article. And trust me, nobody is going to let most of that to go into the Ali article. And anyway, we need a name article for this prominent name. --Striver 04:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambiguation Page