Talk:Persian Gulf/Archive 2

message: I've added some info and the current version has the most detailed report on the Persian Gulf you can get anywhere. I made sure to follow a format similar to the Jerusalem article to include the Arabic term at the beginning. I should remind everyone that not everyone speaking Arabic uses "Arabian Gulf." People over at the Arabic Wiki can confirm this. I don't expect anymore edits over the format of page.  – Kaveh (talk) 14:25, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I have just edited as someone had vandalised eveything. Kaveh I am here with Roozbeh - the naming is clearly important   and it evokes powerful feelings in many. It is too simple to say some form is faked and the other is correct. In Farsi the gulf will always be the Khalij-e Fars, in Arabic countries other versions will be more popular for whatever reason - ignorance, ambition, historicity whatever. But the English use - the one we will have to document here - whether we like it or not - will be one dependent on whatever circumstances the speaker finds him/herself in - and all common forms must be visibly documented. Refdoc 21:20, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming Issues 

message: May I ask that people do not remove the term Arabian Gulf and the Gulf from the first paragraph and restrict the debate to the paragraph on the Naming Issue? I really believe that people should be able to find this page when they do a search on "Arabian Gulf", which will be helpful for everybody, specially those who are pro-"Persian Gulf", since it results in more people finding about the reasons it should be named the "Persian Gulf". Having a term at the top of a page helps its Google rank. roozbeh 16:49, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)
: I actually don't think “Arabian Gulf” needs to be mentioned in the opening paragraph at all. There are more substantial things than Google ranking of a page. Especially for a term that is mostly common in Arabic. If anything, “Arabian Gulf” has to be mentioned in the Red Sea page. Nevertheless, in good spirit I agreed to a compromise with Refdoc on the formatting of the opening paragraph. There is no need for a “totally disputed” message, I invite Mani1 to practice self-restraint and participate in the debate.  – Kaveh (talk) 18:12, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  First paragraph 

message: The repeated silent deletions of "Arabian Gulf" entries by the anonymous users are increasingly annoying and vandalism. I would suggest that those who feel they have something to add should make use of the talk page (and maybe also log in, it would be a lot more polite)  Refdoc 22:56, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I wanted to add something to the arguments in favor of deleting the superfluous naming of the fake names on top of the page but I saw the convincing and good arguments are already mentioned here.
Persian Gulf is the only official name and the forgeries who are mentioned in the article should not be written on top as the legal or legitimate alternatives.
--82.161.35.227 14:58, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverting and vandalism 

message: I decided to protect the page after all, to keep it safe from anoymous POV-pushers. Please note that I have not protected my own version, but the version that (I guess) Kaveh and Refdoc had some consensus on. This means that neither "Arabo-Persian Gulf" nor "the Gulf" are mentioned in the opening paragraph. I would appreciate it if Kaveh and Refdoc tell me if that has been their intention, to not have either of those two terms in the opening paragraph.
I would consider this a good opportunity to end the revert war and see people talk, instead of just removing information from the article. Specially, I recommend that anonymous users get a username, so we can see how many people we are really talking to, and who they are. roozbeh 16:14, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)
:When the page is unblocked, the following interwiki links should be added: :fr:Golfe Persique :pt:Golfo Pérsico — Ливай | ☺ 04:00, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: done --Pouya 19:24, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection 

message: A couple of points. First, I wanted to thank you guys for all the thought you have put into this article. I had come to this article from research related to ancient history and geography, and not geo-politics. So I would ask that you keep in mind that the political angle may not be that important to some of us. I have always heard the term Persian Gulf used to describe this area; if it were listed under something else I probably would not have found the article. Also, I don’t really have a horse in this race, i.e., the naming convention, and though it seems somewhat interesting, it does not seem germane to the topic, outside of a reference/note for balance. I think the whole naming question, plus the history around it would make a worthy article in itself, and could be linked to this page for those who wish to pursue it. Finally, it is not so much objectivity that needs to be the focus, but rather a pruning of either emotionally charged words/phrases, or unnecessarily ambiguous words or phrases. If the name thing is that important, create a link.
Persian Gulf (also referred to as . . (link))   
Once again, thanks for the hard work.
Erthona
;Dear Erthona, you made a very good suggestion and following your suggestion I moved the naming issue part, (which had overshadowed the more important and real information about the Persian Gulf) to a new article called Recent naming issues related to the Persian Gulf.
If I go to an article about the Chine Sea to get some geographical information, it would be strange to sea 2/3 of the article stuffed with some naming issue. If someone is interested in the naming issue can go the related article dedicated to it.
Thanks for your suggestion.
Take care.
--Mani1 09:40, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The current compromise 

message: We had a version which was stable for a number of days. It had the right name at the top, mentioned shortly the Arabian Gulf (not in the first line, not as an alternative) and left the rest to the Naming Controversy article. And now we are slowly creeping back again into having the whole problem here! Please think carefully before you edit and probably do consult form time to time ! Refdoc 11:54, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New edit war looming? How sad! 

message: There is certainly no doubt about the fact that the first nation populating the shores of the Gulf were Persians. The Arab nation had at the days of the nascending Persian empire, some 2500 years ago, not yet migrated to the Gulf shores of the Arab peninsula, their cradle being Yemen, from where migrations to modern areas of residence commenced much later. In fact, the Arabian side of the Persian Gulf has been hardly populated at all, until some 300 years ago, when nominal Arab settlements concentrated in Bahrain and present day Kuwait. The number of Arabs dwelling along the shore, which is now divided by Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar has been sparse up to the second quarter of the 20th century. People on the Arabian side commonly referred to it simply as "The Gulf". Lack of historical education and natural selfreflection on the part of the Arab gulf coast population led inadvertently to the conception of the Gulf as akin to their own heritage, in the modern Arab eyes. Growing sense of Arab national Identity became the breeding ground of vane contemplations, fostered by a few and readily embraced by many more. Growing apprehension with respect to the powerful Iranian neighbor on the opposite side encouraged further defiant sentiments of identity seeking Arabs in the small, newly arisen states.
The nomination conflict from Arab perspective ought to be considered not so much a matter of trying to rewrite history, but an attempt to gain more weight in a situation, which has been vastly unbalanced, in the favor of the Iranian side for millennia. 
These fanciful views of the issue, on part of the Arab gulf population and some of their brethren to the North and East, will of course not alter the course of history and reverse the prominent role of the Persian nation during two and a  half millennia.
The Persian Gulf has been the Persian Gulf for 2500 years, and cannot be seriously considered the Arabian by anybody, in lack of Arab connotation with it, until very recent days. left unsigned by User:Pantherarosa
----------------------------
And we have put this discussion into another article. We have described shortly the dispute, showed in a single sentence where historical use and majority use are and then link to another article. There is no need to keep this controversy on this article brewing. Refdoc 12:29, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another attempt at explaining why some people would call it other than PERSIAN GULF 

message: I don't read the Arabic alphabet but would be interested to know how the Persian and Arabic names of the Gulf are pronounced and what they mean. Would it be possible to include this information? Bathrobe 4 April 2005
: I added the pronunciation of the Persian name, it's meaning is the same as in English.  – Kaveh (talk) 09:31, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What do the Persian and Arabic names mean? 

message: Though I have to say, "To avoid this controversy ..." seems inaccurate, since one could argue usage of "The Gulf" actually furthers the "controversy." Are there any official statements from media groups which state that they use "The Gulf" specifically to avoid controversy? If not, I suggest we simply state the obvious fact that some English language-media use "The Gulf" - for whatever reason that only they know - but we don't have to mention this last part ;)(i.e. take out the controversy bit). SouthernComfort 4 July 2005 09:57 (UTC)
Southerncomfort jan Kheily mamnoon. Page looks just fine now. --Paradoxic 15:27, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't want to simply make an edition over something that has obviously been much debated but this article really has to mention that Arabs often refer to it as the Arab Gulf. The name may be "academically beyond dispute" but if 300 000 000 refer to it otherwise we can't just ignore it. In the U.A.E. the response I usually get is: Persian Gulf what? ie., it often hasn't occured to people that it might be called anything but the Arab/Arabic Gulf in English. Marskell 13:40, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I obviously jumped into this after the debate had run its course but I have inserted a note about the name used by Arabs given no argument not to. Marskell 14:34, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversy

message: The issue of name must not be taken lightly at all. It is obvious that such platforms of opinion are purely political and must be resisted historically and if need be legally. My organization based in the UK is currently investigating whether Iranians/Persians may indeed be able to launch legal actions against publishers and the media for inaccurate naming of regions and countries. Historically this region/waterway has always been known as the Persian Gulf and referred to in written history as the Persian Gulf. My understanding is that this dates back, in European times, as far back as the exploits of Marco Polo and Vasco de Gamma and possibly even further. The arabs has always been synonymous with high jacking words, terms, historical accounts and even characters as being their own. They even refer to Egyptians and Syrians as arabs, a term that is not accurate and offensive. I have indeed followed the resolutions passes by the UN regarding this region and its name, and I can confirm that it declared it to be The Persian Gulf. The English and the French have a similar dispute over the English Channel but this does not occur in print of maps and literature. 
But as I have said, what this region is called is vitally important and it seems that the arabs and their young, inexperienced, petulant and history starved nations must be taught some history. I recall an arab once suggesting that Salahadin was an arab, when in fact he was Kurdish, the son of a famous Kurdish general. So as you can see the claim by arabs on history is very futile. The champions of Islam have rarely been arabs even. A statement that I am sure they will also contest. I do agree that the term 'arabian gulf' and 'gulf' should be removed from the title page as it serves no purpose. If we were discussing England we would not name it in Persian "Englestan'(which ironically suggests that it is a state within a country). Therefore, if you wish to remain true to the cause and name the title page should be amended to read, and read only as 'The Persian Gulf'
Dr. B.B.
:"...may indeed be able to launch legal actions against publishers and the media for inaccurate naming of regions and countries." LOL. Seriously, if all you can contribute to Wiki is bogus and meaningless veiled legal threats: leave. Perhaps your bigotry will go over well in some court, somewhere, but here it just appears childish. 
:As for the article, it makes absolutely clear that "Arabian Gulf" is not attested to English. We mention, it and we observe it's not in common usage in English. There is no need to drop the reference completely. Gulf Arabs refer to the water body as the "Arab Gulf." That is a fact. I heard it two days ago from one of my students. That's what they call it. That's worthy of inclusion here. Thanks doc. Marskell 23:33, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The name issue 

message: "The arabs has always been synonymous with high jacking words, terms, historical accounts and even characters as being their own. They even refer to Egyptians and Syrians as arabs, a term that is not accurate and offensive"
First of all, all arabs were native to Yemen Or areas in Higaz from there they migrated across the Arabian penisuala and later into North Africa, now if your racism sees us calling Arabs as Arabs offensive, then you could just suck...nevermind.I wouldn't degrade myself to your level of retardation, we don't "hijack" words, terms, histoirical accounts, or characters "doctor" if we do, you should give factual evidence on it. Those "explorers" you spoke about would've died of hunger and fear at sea had Ahmad Bin Majid not been there to give De Gamma parchments and maps detailing him how to reach India and the Arabian Gulf and the surrounding penisuala, but of course we "hijacked" your "explorer's" discovery, right? Arabs had established trade routes to India long before Europeans were there, and lots of English words were taken from Arab origins, racist comments like these make me laugh at you calling yourself, "doctor".
Also, Salah-el-Din is viewed as an Arab because, he spoke the language, lived according to our culture, what we refer to as Arab isn't neccessarily genetic exclusive, Arabs are a nation not a race, research your facts. Finally, what's this trash about Arabs not having any contributions to Islam? WTF? Khalid Ibn Walid, Abu Baker, Omar Bin Al-Khatab, Amr Bin Al-Aas, Tariq Bin Zyad, Othman Ibn Affan, Ibn Sina, Al-Jaheth, Ibn Battuta, Al-Razi...I could go on and on, please before you publicize your hate messages, at least do your research properly, and next time, "doctor", get some morsel of courage and log-in at least, cowardice doesn't help your argument in the least. MB 23:05, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A reply to "Dr." B.B. 

message: Your reply reeks of ignorance and blind hatred, now Bee-Bee how can you call yourself an 'Arab researcher' if you hold nothing but loathing to our culture? I feel nothing towards you but sadness and lots, lots of pity. I mean seriously most of your claims were historically completely incorrect and the others were merely opinions fueled by hatred and loathing, your disgusting racism reared its ugly head in your reply, let me show you how your claims are all wrong and prepostorous:  
"I have researched your 'culture' & 'language'"
why the " ' " around culture and language, surely your hatred didn't reach a point where you claim neither exist for the Arabs. Seriously, if that's it then it's just sad.
"In fact I published a paper titled "The Origin of Arabic Text" in 2001. Let me assure you that prior to the involvement of the British in the Middle-east there was never a mention of the arab nation."
No, Bee-Bee, The arab nation was united since the beginning of the Islamic faith,From the Prophet Mohammad, to the Caliphs: Abu-Baker, Omar, Othman, and Ali;through the Ommayad Dynasty, and the Abassid Dynasty. The Arabs were united under one country under an Arab leadership for almost seven to eight centuries...you need to seriously consider your title as 'researcher', the world didn't start after WWI, you know!
"I suggest you research Your facts. After islam you will note that the larger contribution to islam has always stemed from those nations that were already established through out history. When I say that arabs have had little contribution to islam I am in fact correct. Philisophical challenges of islam have always come from societies that have been in conflict with islam. Iran, the birth of Shiat islam for example" 
Actually, the Shiat sect of Islam began in southren Iraq, where Hussain Bin Abi-Taleb was killed in Karballa by the Caliphs men, from there, people began shouting for following what they dubbed, "Ali's Way" they followed what he did during his war against various Arab leaders in his short term as Caliph, from southron Iraq it spread to Iran through the Safavids, I suggest you  research your facts, Bee-Bee.   
"Conforming to an idea does not give rise to its challenge. If a scholar adheres to a norm then he is a follower of that idea and will not challenge it"
Bee-Bee, what are you talking about? The Arabs had extremly heated debates over almost everything, from the doctrines of Socrates to the interpertation of the Holy Qora'an, some sects even went to the extreme that they were considered out of the faith i.e. the batenia, the baha'ya, the mo'tazala...etc. Of course I'm not encouraging that, I'm just saying that not all Arab scholars conformed to an idea. 
"As for arab contribution to islam I am again correct. Nationals such as the Asyrians, the Persians, the Egyptians have by in large contributed far more than arabs, and I said I do not regard a national to be arab simply because they speak arabic"
Like it or not, Bee-Bee, the Egyptians are Arabs, always were, always will be. Their ancestors can be traced back to the deserts in Yemen, they fled the famine that hit that region about ten thousand years ago, some researcher you are! You seemed to drop the list of names of Arabs I gave that contributed to the cause of Islam, read it, research it, and tell me if I'm wrong then, Bee-Bee.
Also, all Arabs come from two regions, the Higaz in today's western Saudi Arabia, and Yemen, in the southron Arabian penisuala. From there the Arabs spread across the lands called tody the Arab World, after being liberated by the Arabs from the Byzantines and the Sassanids, the Arab World remained united under an Arab leadership, until they began dissenting, and were taken over by the Ottomans. The Arab World then was sliced by British and French colonial powers under the rule: "divide and conquer", of course you would know that if you were who you claimed to be, Bee-Bee. 
"I live in the west and speak english, but I am not English. And because I abey the rule of the land where I reside does not make me a national of that society. You must not merge definitions in order to derive at a satisfactory result." 
Do you see yourself as English? No? People from the coast of Oman to the the Atlantic ocean see themselves as Arabs, I gave the explanation of why above, but please, who am I to try and stop your ignorance, go to each one of those 300 million, and tell them you're all wrong.
"As for Salahedin, he spoke arabic and Kurdish, but he was nevertheless, Kurdish and no time did he give the impression that he was arab. It seems confusing and very uneducated for anyone to suggest that simply because one speaks a language one is of that origin"
It's called assimilation, Bee-Bee, you know it's when a person or a group of people spend a certain amount of time in a place and take from its culture, language and behavior. Now, racially speaking Salahedin was Kurdsish, but he definately did not liberate al-Quods(Jerusalem) as a Kurd, he freed it as a Muslim and an Arab, Al-Quods holds no importance for Kurds, but it holds a very important place for the Muslims and especially the Arabs.   
"At no time in my text have i refered to arabs as a 'race' i exclude racial matters from these discussions."
O-kay, WTF?! Let me help you a little there, Bee-Bee. Now a race is when only certain people with certain genetic coding can be referred to as that group, i.e. White, Aryan, Indo-European, Black, Hispanic...etc.
A nation is when people can be grouped together based on common grounds i.e. language, traditions, religion, unity of fate( what happens to certain region will affect the next one, which'll affect the next one...)...etc. like the Arabian nation for instance, and the American nation, and the European nation, somewhat.
Got the difference, Bee-Bee? I'm surprised you had the gull to basically spew a hate rant and call it an argument. Your argument are completely base-less, and I think you made wild guesses without going into your subject, please Bee-Bee, stop embarrassing yourself and at least do some research before you start babbling your hate rants, okay, sweety? MB 01:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dear Bee-Bee, 

message: I have been advised by the Wikipedia information team to post this link on this page:
http://www.parstimes.com/PG.html
In order for it to be discussed for inclusion. The site is totally commerical free and there are a couple of contributed articles on Persian Gulf & Persian Gulf Command.
I think this would be a good external link for the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.108.116.158 (talk • contribs) 05:13, 17 December 2005
:It doesn't matter. You're still trying to get people to go to your website. --Khoikhoi 00:46, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [No Title]