Talk:Brazil/Archive 5

message: I cant understand why do we have some many pictures of Rio de Janeiro in this article.
We have 5 pictures directly connected to Rio, more than 50% of the total article! (Pictures describing places).
We also have pretty useless pictures as:
- "Rio de Janeiro is the second largest financial center of the country.".
- "The Maracanã Stadium at the Brazilian Championship."
I am removing part of those pictures.
144.226.230.37 18:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rio de Janeiro or Brazil?

message: It is missing a comment about slavery (both of Indigenous and African peoples) in the History session. It is almost impossible to talk about colonial economy without talking about slavery.
Do you people agree? Opinoso 20:45, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Slavery is mentioned in the demographics section. The argument for me is whether or not mentioning slavery in the history section is too specific for inclusion in the main country article. My opinion is that while it should be included, we should keep the article relatively stable for the time being, and establish a consensus of what is to be included before it is actually included.--Dali-Llama 20:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I would assume if that was the case they would go to the History of Brazil article. Like I said, I agree with you that it should be included, but we we need to establish consensus. Let's let others chime in...--Dali-Llama 20:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Opinoso, just to remember that we are not only trying to meet GA criteria, but also the Featured criteria. We have a limit of content. Sorry, but is impossible to be a complete source even for the most notable aspects of Brazil because of these limit. If you are going to add Slavery statement then I ask: Which part do you will remove? I still agree with Victor to only follow WP:WPC, so these problems would be diminished. Carlosguitar 10:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Looks good to me Opinoso.--Dali-Llama 00:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Slavery

message: I'd like to congratulate and thank everyone who participated in this GA push, with special mention to Carlosguitar and João Felipe C.S, for successfully completing the GA process in such a short time and with such commitment. Hopefully we can extend that to the next WikiProject Brazil collaboration as well! Speaking of which we should probably get on nominating that article right now.--Dali-Llama 21:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was specifically referring to the actions required by the GA Review. When you look at the "Done" marks, there's an overwhelming number of contributions by CarlosGuitar and some by Felipe as well. So yes, congratulations to both for making the changes required to bring the article to GA status. The rest is argumentative.--Dali-Llama 00:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Status reached 

message: After finally regaining GA status, I think this is a good time to start considering work towards FA status. Check out the criteria here: Wikipedia:Featured article criteria
In the past days, I’ve already addressed the following problems:
*Prose: I carried out a slow and careful revision of each section, covering the whole article, and focusing on prose quality issues. I tried to preserve the original text whenever possible to avoid disruptive and controversial changes. I’ve probably removed almost every major flaw, although there might still be a few minor errors here and there. I’ve also removed some lines that seemed too detailed, according to our policy of keeping the article within a reasonable size range. When I started working on this two days ago, the article had 88,479 bytes, now it has 84,805 bytes, so I think I’ve fulfilled my promises of not expanding the article while reviewing text. Several small grammar mistakes have been removed. I could also use some help from proficient/native speakers like English rosy and Dali-Llama on this.
*Wikilinks: we had a major problem here. I don’t know how this wasn’t spotted by our GA reviewer, Dr. Cash. Well, the problem has finally been addressed. Almost every redundant wikilink was removed, as well as wikilinks to common words such as “aircraft”. As a nice side effect, we also saved almost 2K.
*External links: the section was a mess. I removed all specifications to links being in English, removed what seemed to me like unnecessary links and adopted a simpler style of organization, similar to that of Australia.
Now, here is what I think we still need to do:
*Citations: I think it would be nice to establish a standard in style for footnotes. I can do this, but I’m sort of bored of this type of work after reviewing all the wikilinks. It would be great if someone could help me out. We also need to review the quality of these references... some might have to be deleted, whereas others are somewhat redundant. Not every little thing needs a footnote, only things that can generate controversy. Perhaps we can get them down to around 120-130? Edit: spelling. Sparks1979 22:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a good plan to me. Before we start, the only thing I'd be worried about is some time limit between GA and FA to demonstrate stability. We should probably grab a couple of FA reviewers and clear it with them. Once we get clearance on that, I'll feel far more comfortable making those changes.--Dali-Llama 22:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. We need time between a GA nomination and a FA nomination. I only want to establish some guidelines for our work. For now I think we could work on citations, but I’m sure there must be other aspects bothering editors. For now, there’s no hurry, let’s do things calmly. Sparks1979 03:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Working towards Featured Article Status 

message: I added the peacock template because the article says that "The Brazilian economy is large and developed." A.Z. 03:47, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've tweaked to mitigate peacock terms, but I don't think anyone in their right minds will dispute that Brazil's economy is large. "Developed" may be more arbitrary, so I've copied existing text in the article to reflect that.--Dali-Llama 04:03, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your changes still don't have any useful information. I will dispute that the economy is "large" because the phrase "large economy" is devoid of meaning. "Mature manufacturing sector" uses another peacock term, "mature".  I think the template should be re-added. A.Z. 04:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry I reverted your changes. I meant only to re-add the template. I wasn't able to revert myself because of database problems. A.Z. 04:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay--My understanding is that you're not disputing the facts, you're saying that we're "telling", not "showing", which is a fair argument. Let me see if I can fix that....--Dali-Llama 04:24, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh you thought I meant to say that Brazil has a small economy? By no means... You understood it correctly now. I'm glad we could work that out. A.Z. 04:27, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried to explain what I mean here. I don't know if you read that page. Anyway, it would be enough to read WP:PEACOCK. The link to that page is one reason why the template is useful. A.Z. 04:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. That's what I thought. I'll work on it in a bit, and see if the other editors can pitch in as well.--Dali-Llama 05:19, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Large and developed" 

message: Why is there nothing on this topic in the whole article?? 
Some Powerful gangs (this could also be in the gang article and is not):
Third Command, Red Command, Commando Vermilio. These gangs, and many others are often run by leaders who are in prison and can call in riots and attacks on the outside. Including attacks on police stations.
Crime: Large portions of the cities are filled with shanty towns (called favelas) that light up the hills at night and police and pedestrians do not dare enter these sections. These territories are ruled and governed by gangs that sell drugs, women, and guns, kidnap, kill, and rob with impunity. Taxi drivers drive miles out of the way to avoid these areas for fear of being car-jacked. Street kids join the gangs at shockingly young ages and often have no guardians or parents around to tell them right from wrong. Home invasions are a daily reality for the wealthy. Police do not help and are reputedly involved in much of this mayhem.
:This is already covered in the Social Issues section and its respective sub-article. Thanks for the concerning. wildie · wilđ di¢e · wilł die 19:16, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to make the american press pay for all this vandalism that they have done to our international image. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.5.30.2 (talk) 12:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gangs, Drugs, Crime, Robberies and Police Corruption 

message: This particular edit  by Felipe seems troubling, he is removing this image it while quoting the manual of style wich holds absolutelly no basis to it, I didn't revert the first removal because I though it had to do with some grammar mistakes in the image's caption, however I fixed those grammar issues and moved the image down so it didn't go parallel with the image on the other side, this leads me to believe that the issue here is actually the content of the image, wich is a couple of native Brazilians, now the section where its being included its demographics where the addition of the image makes sense, I would like to hear the opinion of both Felipe and other users on this matter, the main question here is: does somebody oppose the addition of an image with these native people?  - Caribbean~H.Q. 21:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly oppose the inclusion of pictures of indigenous people in this article. They represent less than 1% of the population according to IBGE. Therefore, they generate a false and stereotypical image of Brazil for casual readers trying to learn more about the country. Sparks1979 00:00, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Opinoso--you really don't learn, do you? The first half of your comment was perfectly valid! And then you got personal! Was it really necessary to attack João Felipe just now? I mean, you could've just as easily made your point without poking João Felipe? Your attacks are so gratuitous I'm getting offended by osmosis! Please refrain from comments like this.--Dali-Llama 00:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:MOS: Avoid sandwiching text between two images facing each other. Felipe C.S ( talk ) 00:51, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm support Sparks1979. Felipe C.S ( talk ) 00:52, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The image wasn't "sandwiched", I moved it down so it wasn't parallel to the one on the other side. - Caribbean~H.Q. 01:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In my browser no... Felipe C.S ( talk ) 03:57, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brazil's indigenous inhabitants 

message: 3 editors from this article have just been blocked for revert warring for periods ranging from 24 to 72 hours. My 3RR blocks always escalate and I have now watchlisted this article. Please feel free to use the talk page rather then fighting over the content of this article. Thank you. Spartaz Humbug! 18:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit Warring 

message: Felipe C.S. is proposing to change the picture under the Science and Technology heading. Here are the choices. Feel free to vote and voice any reservations.--Dali-Llama 00:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you care to suggest some pictures then?--Dali-Llama 03:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know. A picture of Embraer's assembly line would be more interesting. Something like . I just created that Google images template to use here, by the way :-) A.Z. 05:07, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps... one is the production of the successful product, the other one is the product itself. Either is perfectly valid.--Dali-Llama 05:56, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There must be some better picture, but the assembly line would be more interesting than the airplane because we don't see them all the time. A.Z. 03:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures 

message: Option 1	Option 2	Option 3	Option 4
        	        	        	
Regards; Felipe C.S ( talk ) 02:09, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nomination 

message: * Opition 1 >
**  The image is not good. Very noise. The landscape is ugly, exists two cars that intervene with the vision of the main object of the image, that is the airplane. Felipe C.S ( talk ) 21:53, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Voting 

message: I dislike all of them. They're just boring pictures of regular airplanes that add no interesting or useful information to the article. A.Z. 03:18, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you care to suggest some pictures then?--Dali-Llama 03:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know. A picture of Embraer's assembly line would be more interesting. Something like . I just created that Google images template to use here, by the way :-) A.Z. 05:07, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps... one is the production of the successful product, the other one is the product itself. Either is perfectly valid.--Dali-Llama 05:56, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There must be some better picture, but the assembly line would be more interesting than the airplane because we don't see them all the time. A.Z. 03:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussing

message: The article need of some alterations for a possible Featured Article Nominee. These changes are mainly concentrated in the "Administrative divisions" and "Geography" sections.
* "Etymology" >
In my opinion, this section is too short. Something needs to be changed.
:Agreed. I suggest we eliminate it or expand it. Sparks1979 15:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If other people agree with this proposal, I don’t mind reviewing the section accordingly. Sparks1979 15:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I don’t think we need a subsection on “climate” at all. Why is “climate” more important than “topography”, for instance? In Brazil, Geography books normally encompass the following topics: “territory”, “demography”, “industry”, “energy”, “transport”, “topography”, “climate”, “hydrography”, “vegetation”, and “production”. In theory, we could have at least 5 subsections. Alternatively, maybe we should simply merge everything and avoid subsections in “Geography”. Whatever we do, we need to organize this. Sparks1979 15:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't find a good idea, some articles possess the "Climate" section, I don't see the reason of removes it. It is a sufficiently important section, and the other topics related to geography can be presented in the main article. Felipe C.S ( talk ) 17:03, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text changes 

message: Of course there is a racist thing going on here, mainly by users Sparks1979 and Felipe C.S. We are not calling them racist to make a mere attack or obligate them to accept our pictures. We are saying this because it is a fact.
Some people arrived here yesterday and feel able to give their opinions about the case. Felipe C.S has been giving obvious demostrations of racism in Wikipedia for a long time. It all started when he came to Brazil article and posted pictures of blond supermodels and erased pictures of Black Brazilians. Then he erased all the pictures of Brazilian beaches (they still do not exist in this article) and posted pictures of a rare image of snow in a remote area of Southern Brazil.
He is trying to create a fake image of Brazil, trying to make the country look like Europe.
Felipe C.S frequently attacks articles about Black people and vandalize them. In September 7th he erased the numbers of Afro-Brazilian (45 million) to 6 million (??) in the article African diaspora. He was reverted by user Am86 who also sayed he a racist. He is frequently vandalizing the Afro-Brazilian article.
The more recent racism cases were yesterday, when Sparks1979 sayed that the picture of the Volleyball team (mainly White) should be in the article, while the soccer team (mainly Black) shouldn't. 
Another case was when the Mexican users posted, with good faith, a picture of Brazilian Indians, and  Felipe C.S went to the article Mexico and posted pictures of Mexican Indians there. In his opinion, Indians sell a bad image of a country (statement agreed by Sparks1979 in the Mexican users' talk pages, saying that Amerindians create a bad image of Brazil)
It is incredible how an article about Brazil does not have a picture of a beach (most Brazilians live along the coast). Brazilian beaches are well-known all around the world.
How about pictures of Black Brazilians, who represent half of the country's demographics? Where are they in this article? Why four pictures of politicians? Why all the politicians there are Whites? 
Why not post pictures of normal Brazilians, ordinary people, who work all day to get a pathetic wage? Why post pictures of politicians who never work and steal money of the population, while most Brazilians are hungry?
Another question: why so many pictures of buildings? Who sees these pictures think they are in an European country article: modern buildings, serious politicians. In other words, this article makes anyone think Brazil is a First-World country.
But everybody knows most Brazilians live in poor conditions. Most buildings in Brazilian cities are not modern as in the pictures, but old and dirty. Most Brazilians do not live in high-tech cities as the article tries to sell, but in poor and violent places. 
This article is a fantasy created by these users who are trying to manipulate it. Opinoso 00:33, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see your emotion, and I empathize with you. However, I am afraid that there is no way to post my response in a sensitive way. You are assuming bad faith, and cite other assumptions of bad faith to back up your view. You feel offended, and I can see why, but I don't see an intentional attempt to offend you or anyone else. The user had an incorrect statistic, and tried to change the article to reflect this bad statistic in good faith, as he was trying to make the article more accurate though he himself was inaccurate. Racism did not motivate his edits; it was misinformation, plain and simple. I am an outsider to this dispute; I am neutral, and I can look at this with fresh eyes unclouded by emotion. I do not see racism; I see a simple misunderstanding that caused serious accusations and many hurt feelings. If you do not believe me, then file a request for comment on his user conduct. Let the larger community decide if this user is a racist. However, your refusal to take part in this discussion and not make accusations of racism are hurting the article that you so desperately want to improve by preventing the content dispute theater of this dispute from reaching a conclusion. The Hybrid 02:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a second external editor I see no racism involved either. To me the picture of Maracaná is as representative as the picture of the Azteca in Mexico. Moreover I see a double standard: the involved Mexican user deleted the picture of the Central Market of Mexico City (probably the largest in LA) because it wasn't "modern" enough, and vehemently opposed the inclusion of of the native Languages of Mexico in the main article. . This whole argument seems to be motivated by a sheer competition between the two countries (which has been carried on to Talk:Economy of Mexico, Talk:Economy of Brazil, Talk:Argentina, Talk:Latin America, Talk:North America, etc.) from both parties. In my opinion, both pictures, Maracaná and the football national team (the majority "Afro-descendents") are perfectly acceptable. This is not an either-or issue: both represent Brazil in different ways. --the Dúnadan 02:52, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: You understood me... :D Felipe C.S ( talk ) 19:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I didn't. I still do not know why you keep writing here, since you don't even know what we are talking about. lol. Opinoso 20:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hahahaha... (or in Spanish for the our Mexican friends: Jajajajajaja...) Felipe C.S ( talk ) 20:34, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is a fantasy 

message: All of you could look at this?
* May 2007
* June and July 2007
* August 2007
These are previous discussions. Only look... Felipe C.S ( talk ) 18:18, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You understood me... :D Felipe C.S ( talk ) 19:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I didn't. I still do not know why you keep writing here, since you don't even know what we are talking about. lol. Opinoso 20:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hahahaha... (or in Spanish for the our Mexican friends: Jajajajajaja...) Felipe C.S ( talk ) 20:34, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Opinoso 

message: First Proposal                            	Second Proposal                    	Third Proposal                                              	Fourth Proposal
                                          	                                   	                                                            	
World Famous Brazil National Football Team	Athletes, Pan-American Games RIO 07	The Maracanã Stadium at the Brazilian Football Championship.	Maracanã Stadium at the  2007 Pan American Games.
First Proposal
*Oppose - The team changes constantly. This picture is already outdated by two years. 2)Showing the team doesn't help to illustrate sport in Brazil other than who was once in the national team.--Dali-Llama 03:23, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is the most powerful soccer team in the world, but lost the 2006 World Cup... Lol Felipe C.S ( talk ) 18:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: If a stadium [a building] doesn't represent sports, I suppose a pic of the Stock Market doesn't represent the economy either? The argument against a building is ludicrous. The buidling is used ex professo for sports, it is the landmark of sports, the house where all kinds of sports are played. To me, it is as representative as showing the Nou Camp in Catalonia or the Azteca Stadium in Mexico. Moreover, the Pan-American games are representative of all sports and a gathering of all athletes. --the Dúnadan 01:13, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: It seems like we've had two more votes since my last post, one by Guilherme and the other one by Denisxavier. So now option two has more votes. Personally, I am still not happy with the choice because it's a picture at a political event featuring the president (and I'm sure Opinoso will start complaining about how Wikipedia loves Lula and how this is the third picture with him in the article). Considering the three most involved Brazil editors are in support of No. 4, I'm willing to accept whatever decision they make, be it a compromise or rejection of the poll. I'd like to remind everyone that polls are not binding, with the ultimate goal being consensus/compromise. So let's hear what the other people who did not vote for no. 4 have to say.--Dali-Llama 16:31, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While assuming good faith is paramount, I would advise a review of Denisxavier's history (or lackthereof) of contributions before jumping to any conclusions. --the Dúnadan 17:19, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: True, the poll should be taken into consideration in order to reach a compromised consensus. Please read WP:VOTE and WP:Consensus. --the Dúnadan 17:30, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Good! And welcome to Wikipedia. You are invited to edit as well if you feel inclined to do so. --the Dúnadan 17:48, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposals