Talk:Rani Mukerji/Archive 2

message: I disagree with a lot of the recent edits to this page, specifically the hacking of facts from 'Trivia' and calling them 'Accomplishments'. For a start, they can be incorporated into the main body of the article. Shez keeps converting the article to containing blatant POV and these need to be watched and reverted as and when necessary. Also, we need to build consensus on what constitute reliable sources. Every time I perform a cleanup, Shez or someone else keeps on inserting links to unreliable sources such as Tripod sites, AOL members, Musicindiaonline, Apunkachoice, and others. These are all unreliable and should be removed on sight. I might start a topic about unreliable sources on the Project Noticeboard so that we can build consensus that will affect all pages under WP:INCINE. Ekantik talk 02:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent Edits

message: I just deleted the entry for a ridiculous award on the grounds that Rani was nominated for it, she hasn't actually won it yet, See this link. It appears that the so-called Savlon award is not even notable.
Reviewing the whole 'Other' awards section made me wonder if this is suitable informaiton to tbe included in an encylopaedic article? The whole page itself looks like a cribbed resume of her achievements past and present, which we can do nothing about at present until we get some high-quality sources to include in the biography and other sections.
What do other editors feel about the 'Other' awards section? Barring the Sports Awards and the Zee awards (of whose notability should also be questioned) is there any use in maintaining this section? Isn't it better to remove this section of non-notable awards? Ekantik talk 01:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Remove away, as far as I'm concerned. I'll support you. Shez will probably object strongly and revert. Zora 02:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Zora, I'm about to remove it. Shez will just have to put up with it. :-) But seriously, if Shez continues to disrupt this article (adding non-notbale information and unreliable sources, etc) then we may have to seek action against him. It'll be just tough luck. To see an example of what I'm talkinBold textg about, check out the before and after of Ron Jeremy article. Guess who did that? Jimbo! :-) And as per his explanation, this is a good example of how Jimbo/Wikipedia is better off with stub-pages with reliably sourced info rather than pages and pages of cribbed stuff that is poorly sourced. If you're listening, Shez, please take heed. Ekantik talk 03:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Awards

message: Seems interesting, lots of personal infos about the actress, first film Byar Phool, origins of her name and family, interview on infos —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.122.89.227 (talk) 09:42, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: personal infos

message: The notations to the BBC Film Cafe Awards have been deleted because the award is non-notable. See the BBC Film Cafe website; Film Cafe is a radio show with its own non-notable awards "ceremony", where the votes for the awards were cast by listeners. This award is non-notable. It's easy to get fooled by the "BBC" tag but some effort must be made to establish the veracity of the information. Ekantik talk 05:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-notable BBC Awards

message: Oh God, please tell me we'r enot going to have a war about a page move. A peek into the archives of this talk page reveals that the page was moved to 'Rani Mukherjee' with administrator help after a vote was taken and community consensus was gained. Please, therefore, do not move this page without good reason. Ekantik talk 04:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Page Move

message: Just cleaned up a bit, but otherwise the article is OK. Removed that she has been one of the most popular and sought-after Bollywood actresses in the industry circuit because no-one can vouch for that. Unless she won the National Film Award there is no need to mention this. Removed stuff on her saying yes to Aamir and SRK, this ain't really notable. -- Pa7 23:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh yes! Also removed her future television appearance with Preity Zinta. It's already in the TV section, so no need to re-mention. -- Pa7 23:58, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean up 

message: I have removed some very irrelevant bits of trivia like the fact that she was invited to Aamir Khan's wedding and has not played a negative role. That is useless info! Personally I think this article is a mess but if I try to clean it up then certain editors, one in particular, will think that Im chopping the article into pieces. Does anybody want to share their opinion on this article before I go ahead and do some editing?? Also just to get the record straight, nobody is jealous of Rani Mukherjee. -- Pa7 19:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: I would like to request all editors to please have a look at the archive - /Archive 1.
Several of the issues brought up with the article are in fact issues that have been brought up in the past. The discussions previously had to be abandoned due to certain disruptive editors, details of which can be found in the archives.
I would also like to point out that this isn't the first time the article has been protected from editing to prevent edit wars, and this time round the war was just as useless as it was the last time.
I'd like to request all editors to post their views/opinions/suggestions to improve the article on this page and not on editors' talk pages, so that all discussions relevant to the article can be found on this page itself.
Thanking you,
Best regards, xC | ☎  06:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  request 

message: I'm bringing up some of the things in this article that I disagree with. Some of these are old concerns, brought up previously on this talk page by myself or previous editors. Some are newer problems that have cropped up, and need to be looked at - 
*Mukherjee first appeared on celluloid in 1996, and since then has appeared in nearly 40 films. - This would depend on whether she did a cameo in Biyar Phool or not. If she did that cameo, then this should be 1992. If not, then it should be mentioned that it was for RKAB.
*Sections Family background and Personal life could very well be together, in a single section after Career section.
*Career-
**The years should be kept in the headings, for the reaons I listed above.
**she did a cameo role in her father's Bengali film Biyar Phool.[5] - The ref for this is wrong, the page doesnt mention the movie anywhere. I glanced through the results Google turned up, the first few were - one,two,three(French). Of these, the first could be a reference, the second is a fansite, the third is in French, which editors may or may not understand. I'd like to point out that none of these mention the year she did the film in. A more thorough search would be needed.
**Mukherjee wasn't at all interested in becoming an actress - perhaps. ref needed.
**Chori Chori finally released after much rather delay as the producer had passed away during filming. - ref needed
**Her performance as a Pakistani lawyer in Veer-Zaara was also critically acclaimed and earned her even more award nominations - ref needed
**In 2005, Mukherjee starred in four high-profile films as she worked with the biggest banners of Bollywood. While Bunty Aur Babli, Black and The Rising were among the biggest grossers of the year[21], Paheli was sent to the Oscars. She received critical acclaim for every film, especially her performance in Black. She also won every single award in the "Best Actress" category for Black that year. Undoubtedly, these successes established Mukherjee as one of the industry's most bankable stars.[22] Hence, the actress was honored by a largely foreign audience of 50,000 at the Casablanca Film Festival (2005) in Morocco where four of her movies were presented.[23] - rework to make it more in line with WP:NPOV
**Her latest movie in 2007, Ta Ra Rum Pum is all set to release. and the actress has gone for a fringe haircut this time. Mukherjee will be sporting a modern, up-market and slightly sexy look in chic western outfits for the first half of the film.[30] - unnecessary. remove.
*Personal life - close friends should be removed. unneccessary.
*Controversies - needs to be expanded, as the section offers no details. The words guarded apology is also POV.
*Famous commitments
**Charity causes - could be renamed Humanitarian work and shifted to a seperate section
**World tours - can be integrated with career, as it would be of more value there
**Special events - the details about her performing at the commonwealth games should be in career. Where exactly should the details about her trip to Pakistan be? We'd all be grateful for all editors' ideas.
*'Awards and Honours needs to be cut down. If it cannot be reduced then I strongly suggest having a sub-page so as not to clutter the main article.
*Polls - This doesn't need to have a seperate section.
**Is the rediff's poll notable?
**Filmfare list could be integrated into career
**Is 'Eastern eye' notable?
**On a side note, I'd like to point out that Scarlett Johansson tops (or nearly tops) polls for being 'most desirable' all the time. However there is no page-long list of polls she's been named in on her page. In fact, all thats mentioned is one little line in the lead. Just a thought.
*Trivia- As per WP:TRIV, this entire section doesn't exist.
**She has continued working with Yashraj Films every year since 2002. - unneccessary. Remove.
**Their production houses are ranked at the top in India. - this article is about the actress, not the production houses. Remove.
**She has worked six times with Shahrukh Khan, five times with Amitabh Bachchan and Salman Khan, and four times with Abhishek Bachchan and Preity Zinta - unneccessary. Non-notable. Could also change in future depending on which films she does with whom. WP is not a counter, we are not supposed to count the number of times she's acted with someone.
**The spelling change of her name is notable, although it should be in Personal life due to the reasons shes given.
*Television appearances - section is unneccessary. The content should be integrated elsewhere, if possible, and the section removed. Stars turn up on TV all the time.
**KBC appearances should be on the KBC page.
**The rest are the usual interviews and don't need to be noted specifically in the article.
I'd liketo request all editors to post their views/opinions/suggestions about the same here and not on editor talk pages. It would be beneficial to keep discussions pertaining to an article all one talk page. After all, that is why we have article talk pages :)
Best regards,xC | ☎  06:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestions 

message: Ok Xc! I think I understand your point of view now. And I totally agree with you. It's just I'm tired of finding references and putting them on there. Why don't you search for references for the areas you cited. That would be great. Again, I think that family background should be named 'early life' where you can integrate Biyar Phool if the movie does exist. It's a Bengali film and really unheard of by me. There are no means for me to know if the movie exists in my video store. If you think it does exist, then I think it should be put in early life whereas you can show that she belonged to a filmi background and attended her father's shoots. Ofcourse, she learnt a few things observing shoots all day long. It's silly to date career from 1992-1998. Because there would be a gap of four years till you get to 1996. Thus, if the movie does exist, you can easily put it in 'early life'. Then, if dating the career section deems alright by all, then we can date it. No problem. I just have a problem dating it from 1992-1998. Because Rani herself says she entered the industry in 1996. In her Filmfare Magazine Interview in 2006. She quoted: I've slogged for ten long years. Therefore, she doesn't even consider Biyar Phool as her movie for all the right reasons. I do feel that early life and personal life should be two separate sections. Because one is early and the other one is after stardom. It contrasts the difference. The rest is all fine. I agree with Xc. Do as you wish. I think we can all clear the dispute now because I'm fine with Xc's decision. Except, it is better to keep world tours as part of commitments rather than career. Otherwise the career section just gets messy. Plus, world-tours are something actors put time aside for as a needed step. It's nothing something they like to do but need to do to gain popularity and reach out to the people. It is a known fact actors would prefer to do movies than world tours since they do get to travel with films as well. As for awards, you can crop them down to the important ones which are watched on television each year like Filmfare, Star Screen, Bollywood Awards, Stardust, MTV Awards, IIFA, Zee and the new set of award ceremonies, GIFA. But since most awards are already there, it would be nice to create a separate page for them. Since awards are a recognition of an actor's piece of work. Same for polls. It is a proof of the actor's popularity. We can create one page to put both sections there. And then provide a link for it on the main page. Lastly, I think nominations are just too much too handle. It's better to remove them all. Since it only shows how big of a loser an actor is, it's stupid to note. Except that, for Hollywood actors an Oscar nomination is on an actor's page since they only get a few. Hence, I suggest to keep only Filmfare nomination since it is the only traditional award ceremony which can go back into history and show facts about Nutan and all other legends. I hope everyone agrees now. I don't want anymore disputes. Lastly, I think both Preity and Rani's pages needed to be detailed on controversies and the career section. Plus, the career section should not only note films but maybe what the actor did as research for the movie. I know back in the 90's, not much was done. Not much in even the early 2000's. But as of now, actors are really getting into the role. Their style, haircut, dress sense all give a lot to their role. Like in Ta Ra Rum Pum, it's the first time Rani did training to lose weight for a sexy image. In Baabul, she experimented with an unknown designer to give the character something unique and she did not want to work with Manish Malhotra post Kank for her next release. Things like these. Plus, I think the song 'Aati Kya Khandala' in Ghulam was a national anthem in 1998. It is what put Rani on the map of Bollywood. People started noticing her and calling her the Khandala girl. I know songs are not important. But it's not a Hollywood actor's page. In Bollywood, a song can do wonderful things for an actor's fame. Like i nthe case of Udita Goswami, no one may know her films but most of her songs have been hits. And people know it's the Jhalak Dikhlaja girl. Same for Shamita Shetty. Some people may not even know her name but they know she's the Sharara Girl from the song 'Sharara Sharara'. I'm not saying to put every song. That's absurd. Just two or three. And if not, Aati Kya Khandala is notable and I have a lot of references for it. Thanks Xc for your point of view. It makes sense. - shez_15
:Thanks for the quick response, Shez.
:You've done a great job of referencing the article, alongwith 'Shshshsh'. Whatever few refs are left out, I'll definitely get started on them.
:About Biyar Phool, I agree with you - if we find refs that she actually did the film, then good. Otherwise kick out.
:How about we differentiate within Personal life, ie. first deal with her life before movies, and then after? It would be more useful to keep everything relating to her personal life in one place, I believe. It would also make the page more organised.
:You've brought up an excellent point - putting awards and polls on one page would clear out the clutter. I strongly support this idea, Shez, very strong support from my side!
:The world tours section doesn't seem like a commitment, since theyre doing it for themselves and not for anyone else, so I disagree with having it in Special Commitments. I don't know, honestly, where to put this in. Nor do I agree with having the trip to Pakistan in Special events. Lets think about this, there are plenty of editors looking over the article now, I'm sure someone will come up with something.
:I agree with your bit that the Career section should also have preperation for the role. I agree, but only to an extent, since adding too much isn't needed - the movie article should have those details. We could include things she did to prepare for the role, provided we have refs, as well as reviews by (unbiased,impartial,notable) film critics. It would add to the section, I believe.
:Also agree with your bit on the songs. Provided they do have an impact on the actor's career, they should be mentioned. I remember when ghulam was released... frenzy... you're right, we could definitely put the songs in, songs which have added to her career. References, of course, will be needed :)
:I want to thank you Shez, for the time, effort and energy you've put into this article. It wouldn't have the content it does, without you adding to it. Yes, we've had our differences in the past, and you've had your differences with other editors. But having someone this dedicated work on an article can only be an asset.
:I'd just like to say that the article has a decent amount of content. A bit of formatting, a bit of cleanup, adding whatever is missing... just these little things, we could get this to GA level. With a few images, and a bit more work, this article could definitely turn into a Featured Article.
:Again, to everyone here, thanks for co-operating. Looking forward to any further ideas, and all editors' suggestions for the article.
:Best regards,xC | ☎  09:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ok 

message: I think that we have reached a mutual understanding now. You're right about the Personal Life section. It should be one section to make it more organized. Definitely. Plus, the television appearances and trivia section should be deleted. There's no need for it on the page. And of course, some pictures with different looks of her in the career section would be a great idea. But that's only if the career section is highly detailed and long. We need a great writer for that and I think you write great. For the songs, Aati Kya Khandala is what gave her fame initially. I don't think any other song applies. I'll just find you a good reference for that song to get started and I'll put it here so you can check. Besides that, I think we're all set on a good note. Now, we just have to wait for other editors to comment if they do have any objections. Thanks for your time and dedication for now. 
shez | ☎  04:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see someone's taking inspiration from my sig,eh? ;) xC | ☎  06:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Great!