Talk:Caucasus/Archive 1

message: The contribution of these maps to the article is invaluable and constitutes a very educative reference for the WIKIPEDIA audience!! I am very greatful for the new insight gained from this material--Pantherarosa 00:57, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Impressive Array of historical maps! 

message: First of all, I want to inform all editors that the anon which is disrupting this entry and many other entries in Wikipedia by spurious edits and various forms of vandalism (blatant and overt) is actually the well-known vandal Rovoam. As you can also see from the disclaimer, he's been vandalizing Wikipedia for more than 3 months (!) now, and many pages were vprotected because of him.
This person adds this incorrect map simply out of his feeling of revenge against me (for whatever reasons he has in mind), and he uses the lack of knowledge amongst other editors for manipulating with their opinions, confusing and deceiving them. Just read the disclaimer and look through the history logs of some of the entries mentioned in the disclaimer and you'll understand what's going on.
Second, the maps posted by User:Pantherarosa are simply copied from the other talkpage. Most of these maps were posted before by Rovoam when he has not decsended to blatant vandalism yet. You can see them here (). These maps were posted in the context of my previous discussions (or rather disputes) with Rovoam and by these maps Rovoam actually tried to substantiate some of his POV arguments, not realizing that these maps in fact disproved all his allegations. I have sufficiently commented on these maps in the context of discussions on Nagorno-Karabakh in my message here ().
:(While I have indeed voiced my appreciation for the educative value of above maps, I have NOT posted any maps here!! What are you whining about??)--Pantherarosa 20:48, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why would this entry be restricted to the Caucasus "as a region of today" ??? --Pantherarosa 20:48, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Posting pertinent edits constitutes "siding" with 'anybody ??'. Is this article about you?? or me??? --Pantherarosa 20:48, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: On Vandal Rovoam's disruption, false map and [[User:Pantherarosa]] 

message: For Tabib: The source for my map is here:
* http://www.geocities.com/master8885/Maps/armenia.jpg
I used this map to draw another one. The borders on these two maps are the same. I just wanted to create a public domain image instead to upload this one from the link. Could you provide a link to a map from different time period and I will create a public domain image from that map too if you want. User:PANONIAN
:Panonian, see, the Balkans and the Caucasus are very similar indeed, they have similarly  complex historical experience and unfortunanately, sometimes it is very hard to discern political bigotry and propaganda from facts and truth. As I said before, I really appreciate the job you did creating various maps for WP use, and my opposition to the "map" in question should in no way be misunderstood.
:First, let me inform you about that particular web-site that you took this "map" from. It is an an Armenian created propaganda web-site and in the past Geocities even temporarily closed it down after repeated complaints from Azerbaijanis that this web-site insults the Azeri national symbols, esp. Azerbaijan flag, which they put on the back of Osama bin-Laden's photo, as if this Arab terrorist had something to do with secular Azerbaijan and Azeris (This was app. end-2001 or beg 2002, then, quickly after 9/11, everyone tried to portray their political enemies as "terrorist allies". Btw, Azerbaijan also alleged in the past links b/w Armenians and Osama bin-Laden, so this black PR was reciprocal on both sides..). The web-site was restored only after the owner of the web-site removed blatantly insulting content from the web-site. 
:As to the "map(s)" posted in this web-site, I have already sufficiently addressed this issue in my post above and have shown that this map claims to depict only certain historical period, and moreover, depicts that historical period incorrectly.
:Panonian, there is one more important detail you and any other good-faith editor should bear in mind. Unlike Greater Armenian empire, Caucasian Albania is a very understudied issue in Western historiography. There are lots of maps which depict the period of II c BC and I c. AD, when Greater Armenia reached the height of its expansion, but there are so few maps which depict Caucasian Albania before II c. BC (i.e. before Armenian expansion) and I c. AD (after Caucasian Albania returned lands conquered earlier by the Armenians). In this regard you may be interested in my message posted yet in Feb 2005, in response to spurious allegations from now banned vandal Rovoam to better understand how history and historical maps can be used to advance land claims ().
:Another closely related and important detail more: if a map is 'old', i.e. drawn in say XIX c. or even earlier, it doesn't mean that this map is more reliable than say a more recent XX c. map. On the contrary, if to consider that in XIX c. there was even less info about Caucasian Albania, as well as other ancient Caucasian states, then it woud become apparent that these "old" maps cannot be relied on blindly.
:Btw, I still need to scan and send you more accurate maps of Caucasian Albania. Because of recent vandal sockpuppet attacks against me and because of my workload in real life, I couldn't do this, but hopefully, soon, I'll send you more correct maps of Caucasian Albania, so that you would consider creating maps of Caucasian Albania, which hopefully, we can place in Caucasian Albania entry.--Tabib June 30, 2005 11:17 (UTC)
::I don't see how that website is more pro-Armenian propaganda website than your pro-Azeris propaganda website. I don't either see how the fact that maps have been published in particular websites makes them less credible. And I don't see how maps representing thousands of years terrirotial bounderies can be attacked as erronous or fake, and other maps which support your claim as the true ones. Obvious you, again, again, again and again failed to understand how things are done in Wikipedia, this time let me write this in capital letters so that you might not skip that part: WIKIPEDIA IS NOT THE PLACE TO DECIDE WHAT INFORMATION IS UNTRUE AND WHAT IS TRUE, IF THIS WAS THE CASES WE WOULD HAVE HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF NATIONALISTS LIKE YOU FIGHTING TO GET THEIR POV IN ARTICLES. WIKIPEDIA ONLY PRESENT POSITIONS REGARDING A TOPIC, AND FOR THOSE POSITIONS TO BE INCLUDED, THEY SHOULD NOT BE SUPPORTED BY A SINGLE, TWO OR THREE ACADEMICS AGAINST HUNDREDS(YOU PRESENT SUCH MINORITY VIEWS IN ARTICLES YOU TOUCH). SUCH CLEAR MINORITIES BELIEFS HAVE NO PLACE HERE. FOR THAT REASON, YOU CAN NOT ASK FOR EQUAL PLACE, FOR SOME UNKNOWN HISTORY OF ALBANIA, WITH THE HISTORY OF ARMENIA THAT IS TREATED BY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE THROUGH THE CENTURIES. YOU CAN NOT PRESENT EQUALLY(IN YOUR CASE EVEN DELETE THE MAJORITY THESES), TWO POSITIONS, WHEN THEY ARE NOT PRESENTED EQUALLY IN THE ACADEMIC WORLD, AND WHEN THERE IS A CLEAR DISPROPRTIONATE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE TREATING ONE THESES AGAINST THE OTHER. AGAIN, I REPEAT, WIKIPEDIA IS NOT THE PLACE TO PROVE SOMETHING, YOU'VE DONE THAT, BY BELIEVING THAT YOUR PSEUDOPROVES COULD JUSTIFY THE DELETION OF THE MAJORITY VIEW. Do you imagine if we were to invite many political scientists that work with political parties like you, from various countries, we will never see the end of debates? Just frankly answer. Fadix 15:35, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of map 

message: As I wrote above, Caucasian Albania is extremely understudied issue in the historiography, particularly the Western historiography. I also mentioned that often maps, especially the "ancient maps" some of which were posted above and were spuriously used for advancing some "historical" claims, are not quite reliable in terms of their historical accuracy.
Here's an example, which demonstrates the deficiencies of maps. Please, see four different maps, all of which were referred to in this talk. These maps mention one of the historical provinces of Caucasian Albania - Gogarena. As you can see, these four maps significantly differ in their placement of Gogarena in the map (see encircled area)
 source: http://www.geocities.com/master8885/Maps/1729.jpg 
 (used by Panonian, source: same Armenian-created web-site as above)
 (posted above, and earlier by now banned vandal Rovoam)
 (also posted above and before) 
The confusion in these maps regarding the placement of Gogarena probably comes from two different versions/references to the term "Gogarena". 
One attribution is that Gogarena is the place inhabited by the Gargars, which inhabited the right bank of Kura river, particularly Artsakh, and were one of the biggest Albanian tribes (overall there were 26 Albanian tribes, mentioned by Strabo). Btw, according to ancient chroniclers the Albanian alphabet was based on the Gargarian dialect. 
The second attribution is that Gogarena was a region outside of the boundaries of Caucasian Albania, on the border of present-day Georgia and Armenia, which was conquered by ancient Armenians and derives its name from Gougarq.
In any case, the fact that these maps give so much drastically different pictures, it is obvious that these maps cannot be blindly relied on.--Tabib June 30, 2005 12:10 (UTC)
: Such a contradiction should be illegal. :) Was it not you that was presenting maps of Urartu and entered in a debate regarding Urartu by presenting maps? Why so when someone show you maps, you point out that we can not relly on such maps because there are others that show else? Why this double standard? Fadix 15:41, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  And another thing, while you claim we can not rely on those maps because of the drastic differences, you told above that you will show correct maps. What is a correct map Tabib? A map that support your nationalist POV? Fadix 15:42, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gogarena: Inaccuracies in "ancient maps" 

message: can you please add the Hebrew link to this page  he:קווקז  82.81.75.232 19:04, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hebrew link 

message: Screw the ancient maps and discussion, this section should have a nice map covering Dagestan, Ossetia, Ingushetia and all that! This way the article doesnt give any info on the caucasus. Like this one .
Its CIA, so is it copyrighted or no? Anybody know?--The Minister of War 08:33, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  this DEFINITELY needs current maps 

message: I have to point out the information that reads "Four territories in the region claim independence but are not generally acknowledged as nation-states by the international community: Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Ajaria and South Ossetia" - is incorrect. The territories that claim independence are Chechnya, Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Nagorno karabakh. Ajara has never claimed independence. As for Abkhazia and South Ossetia they are part of Republic of Georgia, and held an autonomy status during USSR (the autonomies in different parts of the occupied lands were created by the Soviet governemnt, they occupied Georgia in 1921 and claimed it as part of USSR). I am not sure what is the source of the information, but I would like to find more accurate and complete information.
Irma Gogiashvili
:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 12:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect information 

message: The template picture: { { Caucasus Labelled Map|float=right}} renders in firefox 2.0 overlapping text. Limited by the knowledge I do not have, I decided to not touch this and just report it. The only way I could get it to not cover any real text would be to move it to the bottom of the article text (before the links) and remove float=right. But this is far from ideal.
jptdrake 05:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Check it again. Khoikhoi 05:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template picture 

message: The disambiguation notice seems too long to me. Is there any way we can constructively shorten it?Mermaid from the Baltic Sea 19:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambiguation notice