Talk:Cesare Borgia

message: "Cesare and Leonardo became intimate instantaneously" - are you saying that they fucked ??
:'Intimate' doesn't only mean sexual. See the article Intimate relationship. --Feuerrabe (talk) 16:57, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: yes. César Borja also had incest with his sister. 100.34.234.175 (talk) 22:35, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: which one? Lucrezia Borgia? 49.36.98.159 (talk) 19:42, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "...intimate with Leonardo"? 

message: This part of the article is very short and has no citations at all :( ProfNax (talk) 02:47, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Military Life 

message: Sorry, but in "What if you were alone in an alley with Cesare Borgia And he was coming torgia..." - what does 'torgia' mean? Can't find explanation anywhere. Thx in anticipation :) 130.225.244.181 (talk) 18:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a slant rhyme for "to'rd ya" = "toward ya." Probably you need to be a native English speaker to catch it. SBHarris 18:04, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, thank you very much :D, I mean, it REALLY puzzled me :) and you guessed right, I'm not a native English-speaker ;)62.107.117.194 (talk) 23:38, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  And considering how many pop references are included in his article, including comic books ones, I'm surprised that nobody is interested in one of the more famous poetic references to the man, which was deleted as "crap." Well, that's wikipedia. Manga wins. And who's Ogden Nash?SBHarris 04:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Torgia 

message: The article says he was born in 1476, but that he was "at the age of 33" when he died in 1507.  As that's not possible, one of these two claims has to be wrong. --Delirium 08:49, Aug 25, 2003 (UTC)
:I've read many Cesare Borgia books and none give the exact date of his birth. They even disagree on the year. Some say 1475, others 1476. --Cesare Borgia 03:41, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not even Cesare's father wrote down same birth date more than once so who knows?  :141.248.3.1 (talk) 01:35, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of birth 

message: The article says that he is Duke of Valencia, to my best information he was not but was Archbishop of Valencia and was made Duke of Valatinois  by Luis XII king of France. -- lwatson —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lwatson (talk • contribs) 19:52, 15 February 2004
:Yes, he was Duke of Valentinois. john 21:03, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duke of Valencia? 

message: I'm surprised there's nothing in the article regarding Borgia's presence in Machiavelli's THE PRINCE... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.57.155.71 (talk • contribs) 14:30, 5 June 2004
:See the last para. —Preceding unsigned comment added by mav (talk • contribs) 07:59, 6 June 2004
I find it interesting that this article describes Machiavelli's description of Cesare Borgia/Duke Valentino's rule as an example of poor leadership.  Having just completed my second read through that section of The Prince, I have to conclude that Machiavelli's view of Cesare's leadership offers praise, not condemnation.  He claims Cesare (I use the given name, as Machiavelli does, as there are several noteworthy Borgias of the period) did well with his actions regarding Ramiro d'Orco, first using Ramiro's harshness to tame the Romagna, then having him executed for his crimes - thus restoring order and obedience to his authority without becoming hated (and later chapters in The Prince clearly state that the hatred of the people is to be avoided).  Similarly, he claims that the foundation of Cesare's power, the Romagna, was well laid, as the region waited a month for him while he was ill in Rome, and that on the day Julius II became Pope, he commented to Machiavelli (Machiavelli was, at the time, an official of some sort in the Florentine Republic, who during his time traveled as far as the lands that later became Germany) that "he had thought of everything that might occur at the death of his father, and had provided a remedy for all, except that he had never anticipated that, when the death did happen, he himself would be on the point to die."  (Quoting the translation of The Prince that I have, released by planetpdf.com, who have seemingly not bothered to credit the translators).  Machiavelli later goes on to say "When all the actions of the duke are recalled, I do not know how to blame him, but rather it appears to be, as I have said, that I ought to offer him for imitation to all those who, by the fortune or the arms of others, are raised to government." (Again quoting the aforementioned planetpdf release of the book).  This clearly indicates, to me, at least, that Machiavelli approves of Cesare Borgia's rule, and the only thing he finds disagreeable about the situation is that Cesare Borgia came to power through another's power and not his own, which is a disadvantageous start to one's rule, according to The Prince.  I do not dispute the historical claims to the contrary, but the article on Cesare Borgia currently indicates Machiavelli disapproves of the man.  I must admit to not having read the entirety of Machiavelli's works, so I am not sure enough that he does not contradict the ideas presented in The Prince in other texts, and thus I am not confident enough to make such sweeping changes in that part of the article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rashkavar (talk • contribs) 12:33, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Prince 

message: Under fiction - it lists The Borgias by Dumas - link goes to a BBC film, and Dumas article refers only to essay on celebrated crimes - anyone know what's right? 212.58.43.101 18:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dumas 

message: I removed this text from the article:
"The standard image of Jesus Christ seen around the world today is acutally Cesare Borgia."
This is at least an exaggeration, as (a) there is no one 'standard image' of Jesus, and (b) most of the similarities that exist between commonly-used pictures of Jesus also exist in pictures predating Borgia by centuries (e.g. the 550AD 'Christ Pantocrator' icon in St. Catherine's Monastery, Sinai).  I've replaced it with a greatly reduced claim saying that it has been suggested that pictures of Jesus produced around that time might have been influenced by Borgia's looks, which might in turn have influenced images since; can anyone comment on whether even this is justified? TSP 16:16, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not big on adding pop culture references of this sort, but Wu-tang affiliate Killah Priest mentions this fact , which means that some people (myself included) may be looking for an explination of how this story came to be.  If anyone does know more, it would be interesting, if even to see some references. Smmurphy 23:42, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

text: If it has been suggested, even by an unreliable witness, it can be included as a claim by that witness; as this seems to be a well-known claim (as per the Killah Priest) reference, it seems to be worth including as a claim, even if it cannot be shown to have any truth to it.  TSP (talk) 14:15, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I spent most of the afternoon reading through Volume One of Dumas' Celebrated Crimes and didn't see any mention of this. Unless someone can actually come up with a page reference, I suggest this part of the claim be removed. L.J. Wolfe 00:39, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

text: The Hagia Sophia image should be replaced, since it's unlikely that a 1260 image of Jesus was influenced by a man born in 1475. L.J. Wolfe 00:39, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image of Jesus 

message: Cesare was 'thought' to be illegitimate however, Rodrigo Borgia acknowledged Cesare making him a legitimate heir and child as well as Cesare's siblings.  Read your history books closer.
:He was illegitimate, because his parents were not married at the time of his birth, and, in fact, never married.  He may, I suppose, have been legitimized, but that is not the same thing at all. john k 07:23, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not an editor here, but I was just browsing around and reading this talk page, I came across this and had had a serious WTF moment. I know it's been five years, but no one took issue with it in the meantime? If you are 'legitimized', that means you are no longer 'illegitimate'. Because, hey, the definition of 'legitimize' is to make legitimate. So, yes, it would be the same thing....  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.190.133.138 (talk) 06:44, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illegitimate 

message: The first paragraph states that Cesare was one of the most controversial people in history, but the article doesn't elaborate on this or explain what's controversial about him. Shouldn't it?
----------
The section on Machievelli is flawed.  Many scholars see Machievelli's praise of Borgia as satire.
:The whole article is flawed. But quote your sources. In my opinion, quotations from Machiavelli would help. He called Borgia "the most perfect dissembler", which certainly sounds a little satirical. Perhaps cynical is a better word.
:I believe Machiavelli genuinely approved of Borgia's methods; for two reasons: first, Cesare's interventions saved Florence, whose ambassador Machiavelli was; second, his removal of several tyrants in mid Italy benefited the people, which was the name of the game as far as Machiavelli was concerned. Before his work with Borgia, he had been an envoy to Forli, noted the regime's cruelty to the people there, and gave that as a reason for their preferring Borgia. Machiavelli saw Cesare's government of conquered territories as juster than that of the despots he had ousted. When Forli was later made forfeit to Julius II, the people at first stayed loyal to Cesare and refused to surrender.
:You may tell from this that, like Machiavelli, I am a Borgia apologist. If there's any controversy about the Borgias, it concerns the accuracy of their reputation. (I don't see them as any worse than other dukes, popes, or noble nubiles of the time. Nor did Machiavelli.) qp10qp 19:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Saying that Machiavelli approved of Cesare Borgia shows a serious misunderstanding of Machiavelli. He was a strong supporter of republics, as can be seen in nearly all of his writings. He did not just disapprove of "tyrants," but of principalities in general. The Prince was not a book to be taken literally, it takes the opposite stance of nearly everything else he wrote. The book was a satire, and his praise for Cesare Borgia was about as genuine as Stephen Colbert's praise for Bush.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.178.110.53 (talk) 21:53, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

text: There is no scholarly consensus on whether Machiavelli genuinely praised Borgia or not. However, some scholars - among them Joseph V Femia and Robert A Kocis - feel that, while Machiavelli did prefer republics, he recognized that only a prince would be able to unite Italy and thus free her from the foreign invasions that devastated the country. This is Machiavelli's exhortation in the last chapter of The Prince. So, instead of writing that Machiavelli offered Borgia as an example of "what not to do," this article should either be silent on the matter, or it should say exactly what Machiavelli said: that Cesare was a model prince. Uzmanei (talk) 04:32, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversial 

message: the "white" image of Jesus Christ you talk of is acually Ceasar Borgia ! and did you know that Borgia was a homosexual too?The point is, the white portrayal of Jesus is evidence of White supremacy because this was helped by the Roman Catholic Church who was by Michelangelo to create pictures of a "white saviour" in the back of Newly printed Bibles.....It's pure blasphemy to me... using white supremacy for making Jesus...In my belief,Jesus was black ! and there is proof ! and I'm caucasian,but its true, The lion of The Tribe of Judah is a Dark-skinned man!   -: signed, The Brother Love
:I'm not with you. qp10qp 19:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Brother Love, your ideas are as random as your spelling and punctuation. Sergivs-en 22:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

text: This is ridiculous. There wasn't even a concept of "white supremacy" at the time. The only people Renaissance Italians ever interacted with that weren't "white" were the Turks and other Muslims, and the difference between these cultures was drawn almost exclusively on religious lines.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.193.160.132 (talk) 13:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Borgia as false christ 

message: "The Antichrist (1895) by F. Nietzsche" listed under fiction! Get it right.
TV series
There was a fine series on BBC TV called "The Borgias" in late 1981. Adolfo Celi played the Pope and Oliver Cotton, Cesare (Borgia).
-Meltingpot
62.137.150.216 10:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nietzsche as Fiction! 

message: In the article it states that he died at the siege of Viana. But in Machiavelli's The Prince it says he died of sickness. Could someone please provide some clarification? --PiMaster3 talk 23:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Rafael Sabatini (The Life of Cesare Borgia, 1912), he was killed by Count Beaumont's men after charging alone the rear of a retreating party of enemies who had come in the night to bring supplies to the fortress, and who killed him outside the walls of Viana. 109.246.224.56 (talk) 15:26, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Borgia's death 

message: The article says that Alexander VI was the first pope to formally recognize his children as his own, however it was actually his predecessor, Innocent VIII, that first recognized his son as his own child rather than as a nephew, or nipoti in Italian (a title they used to cover any number of relations).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.193.160.132 (talk) 13:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pope's recognizing their children 

message: Always thought they were talking about Rudolph Valentino, the silent screen star, not Il Valentino.  Anybody know for sure?  Dvallere (talk) 03:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not know, but it seems so obvious that I commented out the claim. If anyone knows better, un-comment it. Queezbo (talk) 08:50, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bangles Song? 

message: Because nor Spain -and specially- neither Italy existed "properly" in those times.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.54.206.52 (talk) 11:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Then I guess by your logic there are no Kurds either, since there is no state called Kurdistan. --89.27.36.41 (talk) 20:13, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

text: Spain did exist, the kingdom of Spain did not exist as such but Spain did, the Spanish empire. Moreover, the Italian peninsula almost entirely belonged to Spain, it was Spain. The part of Italy that did not belong to Spain had its own Spanish army, if the entire Italian peninsula was not Spanish it is because the Vatican wanted it and Spain granted it. The Borgias are a Spanish family who went to Italy to cause chaos  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.165.48.6 (talk) 02:20, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spanish-Italian: good, though not exactly 

message: I read a biography on Leonardo da Vinci which says Leonardo joined Cesare Borgia's household in 1502. It says that Cesare had a banquet at Imola, to which he invited a two mercenaries, one of them being Vitellozzo Vitelli. The book then says Cesare had these mercenaries assassinated. After this the book says Cesare died SHORTLY afterward and his court broke up. Since Cesare was dead, Leonardo da Vinci returned to Florence, were he was living before. 
So, my question is, did Cesare die in 1503 or 4 whole years later in 1507? 
72.9.8.88 (talk) 17:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: He died in 1507. Source is Sabatini, 1912, The Life of Cesare Borgia. 109.246.224.56 (talk) 15:29, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death in 1507 or 1503? 

message: "Cesare was also father to at least eleven illegitimate children, among them Girolamo Borgia, who married Isabella Contessa di Carpi, and Lucrezia Borgia, who, after Cesare's death, was moved to Ferrara to the court of her aunt, Lucrezia Borgia."
So there were two Lucrezia Borgias? This should be made more clear. zafiroblue05 | Talk 19:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That is crazy that half siblings married each other and had incest! 100.34.234.175 (talk) 22:37, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lucrezia Borgia 

message: This article states, "The new pope, Pius III, supported him..." while the article on Pope Pius III says, "[Pius] at once took in hand the reform of the papal court and arrested Cesare Borgia." These are obviously contridictory.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.33.58 (talk) 05:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Pius article should be changed. Julius II had Cesare arrested. Uzmanei (talk) 04:49, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction 

message: Simply out of curiosity: do any of you scholars know what is going on the background over Borgia's right shoulder in the portrait currently showing in the article? Are those monsters or demons of some kind? Or zombies? Was Borgia famous in his time for fighting off an invasion of the living dead?
Spatrick99 (talk) 17:11, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Melone portrait, off topic question 

message: There needs to be an infobox for this article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:06, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just added it.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:50, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox needed 

message: The term doesn't appear in the article and Borgia doesn't meet the definition in Generalissimo. ch (talk) 23:29, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed Generalissimo category 

message: I hate to add this already long list of problems for this page, but this makes no sense:
Cesare's career was founded upon his father's ability to distribute patronage, along with his alliance with France (reinforced by  his marriage with Charlotte d'Albret, sister of John III of Navarre), in the course of the Italian Wars. Louis XII invaded Italy in 1499: after Gian Giacomo Trivulzio had ousted its duke Ludovico Sforza, Cesare accompanied the king in his entrance in Milan.
//Whose marriage?  Cesare's?  Rodrigo's?  Cesare didn't marry - did he.  Did the Pope marry?  If so, this is unusual enough that perhaps the pronoun "his" in "his marriage" could be changed to either Cesare or Pope Alexander VI, so that one can tell what is intended.  Surely the Pope never married the sister of John III of Navarre?  Who married her?  Cesare?  When? 
At any rate, confusing.  69.235.15.108 (talk) 04:16, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, okay - he marries her later (near the bottom of the page) with more explanation.  The explanation should come *before* the parenthetical mention above.  Also, could there be some explanation of what happened.  I went and looked it up elsewhere:  it is known that he resigned his cardinalship - but shouldn't all this be told in chronological order?  If that fact is in there, it perhaps needs its own header.  What were his motivations for resigning?  Isn't he the only cardinal to have done so?  I'll reread this, but still having troubling figuring out the chronology of his life from this article.69.235.15.108 (talk) 04:22, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need for editing 

message: The guy had syphilis for many years, wore a black mask at times and had a dedication written to him in a book about syphilis (Tractatus contra Pudendarga). Surely worth mentioning? Malick78 (talk) 11:12, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Syphilis 

message: Substituted at 11:11, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assessment comment 

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thread_title:  External links modified