Talk:Records of the Three Kingdoms

message: i suggest moving this page to "Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms".
Although a search through Google shows up 177, 441 and 215 results for "Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms", "Records of the Three States" and "Records of the Three Kingdoms" respectively, i still believe that "chronicle" is the appropriate terminology for a historical record such as this. Please advise.
--Plastictv 12:12, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Having seen the disambiguation page for Chronicles of the Three Kingdoms, i retract my last suggestion. --Plastictv 06:18, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Moving of page

message: I added a  tag to Bao Xin because I wasn't sure if this was a fictional or historical figure. Perhaps someone who knows more about Sanguo Zhi could clear that up. --Fang Aili 17:26, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bao Xin

message: Shouldn't the title have "the" before "Three Kingdoms?"
I guess it depends on whether 三国志 is being interpreted/translated as: 1) three kingdoms' records (records that were kept by three kingdoms); or 2) the three kingdoms' [time period] records (which is the time period covered, so I'd imagine this one would be more proper).
"Records of the Three Kingdoms" anyone?
DranKof 03:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made a technical request to move, I don't think anyone will object "Records of the Three Kingdoms". Quite common over the rarely-used, if ever, "Records of Three Kingdoms". --Cold Season (talk) 03:44, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title Edit 

message: This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 14:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: Does anybody know of an English translation of Records of the Three Kingdoms, either available for purchase or online? Or, if not, is there anybody willing to attempt a translation for Wikisource? That would make the Three Kingdoms project far more accessible to English-speaking editors such as myself, and may decrease the incorrect use of Romance of the Three Kingdoms as a source for historical information. Benjitheijneb (talk) 22:24, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a translation of the Records of the Three Kingdoms, but the historian Rafe de Crespigny has put his translation of the End of Han portions of the Zizhi Tongjian (which took material from the Records) online here (part 1) and here (part 2). For coverage from 220 to 280, you should look at the translation of Zizhi Tongjian by Achilles Fang, but unfortunately that's not available online. _dk (talk) 01:06, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

text: I had heard of Zizhi Tongjian before, but never thought to look for a translation; thank you very much for the link, it should prove useful. Of course, it would probably be more useful to have a copy of the Records themselves than the Zizhi Tongjian (being the closest secondary source to the period), so I will keep looking for that. Benjitheijneb (talk) 17:57, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: English Translation

message: Someone gave a link of Cao Cao (武帝紀) at http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/三國志/卷01; I translated Cao's 184 (yellow rebellion years) to 189, the days of Dong Zhou.
光和末，黃巾起 (last years of 178-183), yellow rebels broke, Cao made punitive campaigns against rebel at 潁川. Cao was promoted to 濟南相; There is bad officials somewhere, Cao striped off eight of them. Cao did strict rules, that town became calmed down. 
久之 ... ===== Afterwards, Cao was promoted to 東郡太守, but Cao came back to hometowen declining it feigning his illness.
頃之 .... =====Afterwards, 王芬, etc plotted to replace 靈帝 to 合肥侯; and they informed it to Cao, Cao rejected; Their plot failed;
金城邊章 .... ==== An official 韓遂, of 金城 town, rebeled; their soliders became 10k; whole world fluctuated; Cao became 典軍校尉, Emperor Ling(靈帝) died (189), prince became Emperor; 太后(Emperess He) became regent; 大將軍何進與袁紹謀誅宦官; 何進(He Jin) plotted to kill eunuches with 袁紹(Yuan Shao), but Empress He rejected He Jin's plan; Then He Jin summoned Dong Zhuo to intimidate to Empress He; 
卓未至而進見殺 ... ==== however before Dong reached, He Jin was killed; After Dong reached Capital; Dong dethroned Emperor; and issue new Emperor Xian; Capital became chaos;  Dong tried to make Cao 驍騎校尉 and to use him as Dong's official; however Cao changed his name(變易姓名); went to east; 
出關.... ==== Cao was caught by suspicion of 亭長; but someone knwe Cao and asked; Cao released(解);
卓遂殺太后及弘農王 ===== Dong killed Empress(太后) and former Emperor(弘農王); Cao gather his property(家財) and make soldier(合義兵); and revolted; It was time of 5th year(己吾) of 中平(184-189); that is 189.
(Gauge00 (talk) 20:11, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cao Cao section of Records of the Three Kingdoms 

message: 袁紹(Yuan Shao) ---- Main campaignes of Yuan Shao began in 189, not in 184, on the contrary of the wishes of some wiki incompetant scholars.
http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki三國志/卷06  董卓(Dog Zhuo) 袁紹(Yuan Shal) 袁術(Yuan Shu) 劉表(Liu Biao)
 
袁紹字本初，汝南汝陽人也。高祖父安，為漢司徒。自安以下四世居三公位，由是勢傾天下 (Yuan's private name is 
本初 and from the town 汝陽 of 汝南 prefecture. His ggfather 袁安 was 司徒 of Han dyansty. 3 generations
of his f after 袁安, for 40 years, they  ranked at 三公; by that their power could shake the world.
紹有姿貌威容，能折節下士，士多附之，太祖少與交焉。以大將軍掾為侍御史  === (His body looks great amd pompous and prestiguous; He was polite and decent such that he usually bowed to any his lower officials(下士); Many individuals gathered arround him; 太祖(Cao Cao), when young, had friendship with him; Yuan Shao became 侍御史 by the connection of 大將軍(He Jin). 
稍遷中軍校尉，至司隸 --- Afterwards Yuan Shao became 中軍校尉, and rechead the position to 司隸.
靈帝崩，太后兄大將軍何進與紹謀誅諸閹官 --- When 靈帝(Emperor Ling) died in 189, 何進(He Jin) of the brother(兄) of Empress He (太后) plotted to kill many(諸) eunuches(閹官) in coperation with 紹(Yuan Shao).
太后不從。乃召董卓，欲以脅太后。常侍、黃門聞之，皆詣進謝，唯所錯置。時紹勸進便可於此決之，至於再三，而進不許。令紹使洛陽方略武吏檢司諸宦者。=== Empress He rejected their scheme; They summoned 董卓(Dong Zhuo) to intimidate(脅) her. Ears of 常侍 and 黃門 heared this, these eunuches went to 進(He Jin) to petition, and they submitted to him; At his point 紹(Yuan Shao) said to He Jin that this is the oppurtunity to wipe out the eunuches; and asked him several times; He Jin did not listened; Instead He Jin ordered Yuan Shao to detain 諸宦者(the enuches), using the forces(武吏) of Capital(洛陽).
又令紹弟虎賁中郎將術選溫厚虎賁二百人，當入禁中，代持兵黃門陛守門戶。中常侍段珪等矯太后命，召進入議，遂殺之，宮中亂 === And He Jin ordered also Yuan Shu, an Yuan's brther, official of 虎賁中郎, to aggregate 200 soft tempered soldiers of Shu's own; and these soldiers entered Capital; kept the gates and doors of the Capital. 段珪, a official of 中常侍, and others, using the order of (太后) Empress He, ordered He Jin to come; and they killed He Jin; Capital fell into disorder.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gauge00 (talk • contribs) 20:15, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Congratulations. You found an individual from the Records of the Three Kingdoms whose biography doesn't start in 184. What does that prove? That some people did pretty much nothing during the Yellow Turban Rebellion. That provides no evidence whatsoever to the definition of the Three Kingdoms era; the starting point of a single character's does not have any relevence. Benjitheijneb (talk) 21:48, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  You should research Special:Contributions/Ordaz17. Please do. Ordaz17 did change 189 to 184without any consensus. Please visit Special:Contributions/Ordaz17 and see the line of 27, July 2011. Before 2011 the beginning year was 189. Do you really think that Ordaz17 changed it by a consensus? .(Gauge00 (talk) 22:18, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, we do think so.  And before you again call other editors "incompetant", I strongly urge you to review WP:NPA. siafu (talk) 22:20, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I did not ask to you. And now I ask you to read Special:Contributions/Ordaz17. I can understand your being stubbon. Anybody has some being stubborn Who are pleased when their opionion is proven false? (Gauge00 (talk) 22:44, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Accusing people of "being stubborn", especially in bold letters, is only repeating the same error you made earlier.  In case it's not clear, personal attacks of any sort are not at all acceptable on wikipedia. siafu (talk) 23:03, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

text:  Benjitheijneb That some people did pretty much nothing during the Yellow Turban Rebellion === gauge00 Make a list of those who did pretty much something in the Yellow Turban Rebbion. (In appedix, you should realized that the year of the revolt of the Ten Attendants is 189 and that their revolt is a type of Wars of succession in a manner of speaking. (Gauge00 (talk) 23:16, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

text:  Click This. Anyone can see how 189 was changed to 184. (Gauge00 (talk) 23:30, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I can see. It was a good change. Well done, Special:Contributions/Ordaz17 - thank you for correcting the date to the consensus-decided date of "184". By that token, the Yellow Turban Rebellion has been considered BY CONSENSUS to be the start of the wars of succession, not the Ten Eunuchs incident. And I suppose we are stubborn, if stubborness means acting in defense of the consensus-decided date against your singular opinion which can be supported neither with consensus nor with valid evidence.  Benjitheijneb (talk) 23:50, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  However gauge00 did make hard time of making translations of Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Yuan Shao to prove that 184 could NOT be the beginning. On the contraray some stubbron imcompetent indivisuals did nothing to disprove me. And you Benjitheijneb are NOT of chinese origin, then you seem that you have NOT read any Records of the Three Kingdoms, then why are acting like you are specialist on chinese history?  Is your major the acting?  Did you said that Yellow reb has been considered BY CONSENSUS to be the start of the wars of succession? You gave me too much amusement. Do you really think that the incident as a wars of succession??? Funny.. I should once again instruct to you that (1) Emperor is near death (2) Dowager wanted second son to succeed (3) He Jin is a relative of first son (4) One enuch wanted to kill He Jin because Jin was obstacle of making 2nd son Emperor (5) Emperor died (6) He Jin made first sone Emperor and tried to kill eunuches. (8) eunuches find safe place under He Jin's sister (9) He Jin could not kill them by his sister (10) He jin caled DOng zhuo to intimidate his sister (11) Enuchs summoned He Jin using He Jin's order (12) He Jin arrived and was killed (13) Dong arrived (14) Dong replace Empeor, (15) 2nd son now became (16) Dong ZHuo killed 1st sone and his mother, the sister of He Jin... Do you really think this series is a war of succesion??  Can you distinguish battle, campaign, fight, skirmish, and war???(Gauge00 (talk) 01:29, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

text: Chinese wiki of 三國志 said that 184 is the beginning year. However before 28 April 2008, it said that 220 is the beginning year. Who changed it? We can see the man who did this change 220->184 And I speculate that the user User:Siafu is probably of the chinese origin, and this fact is the reason why he is insisting that 184 is correct. It seems that he just wanted the chinese wiki to be correct. My speculation could be wrong though. (Gauge00 (talk) 00:53, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Could be! siafu (talk) 01:13, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: 袁紹(Yuan Shao) section of Records of the Three Kingdoms

message: 三國志/卷32 先主 劉備
先主姓劉，諱備，字玄德，涿郡涿縣人，漢景帝子中山靖王勝之後也。勝子貞，元狩六年封涿縣陸城亭侯。坐酎金失侯，因家焉。
先主祖雄，父弘，世仕州郡。雄舉孝廉，官至東郡範令. === 
Liu Bei, name is Bei, personal name is 玄德; he is from 
涿縣 of 涿郡 prefecture. He is a descendent of 中山靖王 named 劉勝, a son of 漢景(Emperor). 劉勝's son 劉貞;  he was promoted to 陸城亭侯 in year of 元狩6th year. By 酎金, he was divested of his office
and came home. Great father of Liu Bei was 雄; father was 弘; they lived at their hometown. Father 雄
was promoted to 孝廉; his rank reached to 範令. 
 
先主少孤，與母販履織蓆為業。舍東南角籬上有桑樹生高五丈馀，遙望見童童如小車蓋，往來者皆怪此樹非凡，或謂當出貴人 ===
Liu Bei was orphan at young age, living with mother; He got his living by selling straw sandals and weaving grass mats. Near the house stood a huge mulberry tree, and seen from afar its curved profile resembled the canopy of a wagon. Noting the luxuriance of its foliage, a soothsayer had predicted that one day a man of distinction would come forth from the family
先主少時，與宗中諸小兒於樹下戲，言：「吾必當乘此羽葆蓋車。」叔父子敬謂曰：「汝勿妄語，滅吾門也！」===When young; he usually spent time playing with family childs under the tree, he said that "I shall ride on Emperor charriot". Uncle 子敬 said frightened that; you shut up; are you goint to extermiate all the family?; 
年十五，母使行學，與同宗劉德然、遼西公孫瓚俱事故九江太守同郡盧植。德然父元起常資給先主，與德然等。元起妻曰：「各自一家，何能常爾邪！」起曰：「吾宗中有此兒，非常人也。」而瓚深與先主相友。瓚年長，先主以兄事之。先主不甚樂讀書，喜狗馬、音樂、美衣服。身長七尺五寸，垂手下膝，顧自見其耳。少語言，善下人，喜怒不形於色。好交結豪俠，年少爭附之。中山大商張世平、蘇雙等貲累千金，販馬周旋於涿郡，見而異之，乃多與之金財。先主由是得用合徒眾。
When he was 15; Mom made him play with a relative 劉德然, 公孫瓚(Gongsun Zan) of 遼西; and 盧植 a same hometown man and had been 九江太守. 元起, the father of 德然, usually gave money to Liu Bei, the same amount of his son. One day wife of 元起 said that Liu is not my family; why did you gave him money; At that 元起 said that Liu is one of relatives and that he is so special; 瓚(Gongsunzan) got dep friend ship with Liu and he is older so that Liu calle him "brother". 
Liu has no fond of reading; his fond was playwing with dogs, horses, playing music; 
and liked decent clothes. His height was high and his hands touches knee; 
His eyes could see backward past his ears. Liu Bei remained solemn and displayed little emotion.
He liked to make friends ship with 豪俠. Though he was younger than others, others were eager to
be friedns with Liu. Great merchants of the 中山 named 張世平 and 蘇雙 were great riches and they
usually went town and town to sell horses and one day they reached Liu hometown; thinking Liu was so
prospersous; they donated large money; and Liu by reasons could gathers large followers;
靈帝末，黃巾起，州郡各舉義兵，先主率其屬從校尉鄒靖討黃巾賊有功，除安喜尉 ====
At the last years of Emperor Ling, Yellow TUrban Rebellions began; Against this every town arised
voluntary punitive soldiers. Liu also volunteered; followed 鄒靖 (ranked 校尉) and made
punitive campaignes aginst rellvions with good achievemt; for this reason Liu became 安喜尉.
督郵以公事到縣，先主求謁，不通，直入縛督郵，杖二百，解綬係其頸著馬枊 ===
A official 督郵 arrived Liu's resident, so Liu asked him to meet; His ask was denied that
Liu directly penetrated to 督郵's camp and beet 督郵 200 strokes and bound 督郵 on a stroke,
Liu throw up his public office and ran away.
頃之，大將軍何進遣都尉毌丘毅詣丹楊募兵，先主與俱行，至下邳遇賊，力戰有功，
除為下密丞。复去官。後為高唐尉，遷為令=== 
Afterwards, 大將軍 何進(He Jin) sent 都尉毌 丘毅 to 丹楊 and ordered him to collect soliers there; 
Liu Bei was volunteeared and joined; The soldied arrived at 下邳 and met with yellow rebellions;
Liu achievemtn was good that he was promoted to 下密丞.  However he again throw that office(??) and 
afterwards he became 高唐尉, and was promoted to 令.
為賊所破，往奔中郎將公孫瓚，瓚表為別部司馬，使與青州刺史田楷以拒冀州牧袁紹。數有戰功，試守平原令，後領平原相。
郡民劉平素輕先主，恥為之下，使客刺之。客不忍刺，語之而去。其得人心如此。=== 
He was defeated by enemy and ran away to  中郎將 公孫瓚(Gongsunzan). 公孫瓚 asks Emperor
to make Liu be ranked at 別部司馬; and along with 田楷(Tian Kai), a officer(刺史) of 青州 region, to
attack Yuan Shao(袁紹), the 牧 of 冀州 region.
Liu acchievemtn is good; Liu was got to posion of 平原令 briefly, after was promoted to 平原相.
A country man named 劉平 made little of Liu Bei, 
and thought it was disgrace to serve under the Lie Bei, so
he sent his military guest to Liu and tried to Liu. The guest failed his duty and nstead
said his mission to Liu and left. THis show how Liu fame is in his town.
袁紹攻公孫瓚，先主與田楷東屯齊。曹公徵徐州，徐州牧陶謙遣使告急於田楷，楷與先主俱救之。
時先主自有兵千馀人及幽州烏丸雜胡騎，又略得饑民數千人。既到，謙以丹楊兵四千益先主，先主遂去楷歸謙。謙表先主為豫州刺史，屯小沛。===
Yuan Shao attacked Gonsun zan, then Liu went east along with 田楷, encamped on 齊. 
Cao Cao attack 徐州; 陶謙(Tao Qian), 牧 of that region, sent messenger to 田楷 and said his critical condition; 田楷 and Liu sent releaf force to Tao. At that time
Liu has 1,000 solders and also some barbaric solders including 烏丸 tribe of the region 幽州,
and has tousands famine civil followers.
At Liu's arrival, Tao added 4,000 soldes of 丹楊兵 origin, afterwards Liu left 田楷
to join Tao, and lived under Tao.
Tao asked Emperor to make Liu to be promoted to an office 刺史 of regin(豫州), 
and Liu camped on Xiaopei
Translated by (Gauge00 (talk) 22:44, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: 劉備([[Liu Bei]]) section of Records of the Three Kingdoms

message: 三國志/卷07 吕布, 张邈, 陈登, 臧洪  contains Lu Bu, Zhang Miao, [Chen Deng]], Zang Hong of the Book of the Three Kingdoms
後漢書/卷75 劉焉袁術吕布列傳 DOES NOT contains 劉焉, 
袁術(Yuan Shu), 吕布(Lu Bu) of Book of the Later Han. (WARNING zh.wikisource.org/wiki contains wrong content. 75 contains 74).
Anyway I'd like remind you that biography of Lu Bu exsist both 
at Records of the Three Kingdoms and at Book of the Later Han. However the biograpy at
Book of the later Han is longer than that of Book of 3k. 
Interestingly Record of the Three Kingdoms was said to covers 184 to 280, while Book of the Later Han said to cover from 6? to 189. Lu Bu lived 155(?) to 199. Why could Book of Later Han, which contains more detailed biography of Lu Bu, NOT be said to cover 6(?) to 200 or 220? 
(Gauge00 (talk) 09:55, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Lu Bu]] of Book of Later Han

message: Any reason why we don't include Records of the Three Kingdoms in Plain Language in the translations section? Tooironic (talk) 02:56, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe because it's a translation of earlier Sanguozhi pinghua (thirteenth century CE) and not Sanguo yanyi by Luo Guanzhong?, Guss (talk) 05:29, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sanguozhi is the topic of this article, not Sanguo Yanyi. My guess is that none of the major contributors knew about the translation.  if it calls to you, throwing in a sentence or two in the translations section seems like it would be appropriate, but not in the scholarly table, and not the amazon external link. <3 Folly Mox (talk) 06:01, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Despite the similar names, Records of the Three Kingdoms in Plain Language (Sanguozhi Pinghua) is not a translation of Records of the Three Kingdoms (Sanguozhi). It is a piece of fiction considered to be a precursor of the Sanguo Yanyi. It was deliberately excluded, perhaps we should add a note in the article saying why. _dk (talk) 16:56, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh ok, thanks! Good to know Folly Mox (talk) 19:36, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Records of the Three Kingdoms in Plain Language  

message: "However, since the state of Shu lacked documents about its history, the Book of Shu in the Records was composed by Chen Shou himself based on his personal memories of his early life in Shu and other primary sources he collected, such as the writings of Zhuge Liang."
The source from this is from the translator Moss Roberts (who doesn't cite a source for his claim that is where Chen Shou got the records from). As far as I can tell this doesn't sit with any of the work of historians when discussing the era or that Chen Shou served in Shu-Han's record department. I think the issue of Shu-Han's poor records should indeed be addressed but this might need reworking and moving away from Moss Roberts claim? DongZhuo3kingdoms (talk) 13:44, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello Dong Zhuo. I think this an exaggeration of Chen Shou own exaggeration and shouldn't be spread around. It is on the same level and often paired with "Zhuge Liang wrote the history of Shu" which is also suggested in this sentence. Chen Shou and the forgotten Shou Liang compiling Zhuge Liang's works is another project entirely and shouldn't be mixed with the SGZ.TheWayWeAllGo (talk) 00:53, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claim about where Chen Shou got Shu-Han history