Talk:Germanos Karavangelis

message: I strongly request (and maybe I would do myself) a cleanup of this article for the following reasons:
1. QUOTE:
(He) was undoubtedly one of the main coordinators of the freedom of Macedonia from the Turks (end of the quote)
It is an absolute distortion of the historical facts.
It is a known fact and Karavangelis HIMSELF tells clearly and undoubtetly in his own autobiographical book "The Macedonian struggle"(I think firstly published in 1928) that he NEVER fought the Turkish authorities. Oncontrary (as he says in his OWN above mentioned book) he often gladly COLLABORATED with the Turkish authorities against their common enemy: the armed groups called "Komiti" organized by the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization for liberating Macedonia from the Turkish yoke (see: VMRO) during the years of the Greek Struggle for Macedonia
2. Also, the article is biased (in favor of the greek nationalist point of view).
QUOTE:
With great diplomacy and bravery (he was only 34 years old when made bishop)
Oncontrary, Karavangelis says openly in his own above mentioned book that: bribery, manipulation, assasinations, betrayal, Divide et impera etc. were among his offtenly used methods.
3. Another example of the biased (pro-greek nationalistic) views expressed by the author of the article is the following
QUOTE:
he organized militias out of determined Greek(s) and boosted the morale of the dejected Patriarchists.
Karavangelis in his own book says openly that recruiting ordinary bandits and criminals for his armed gangs was also a common practise (beside people who really beleived in his cause and who would join him volunatrilly or who would be manipulated to do so).
4. Also, the Greeks should finally decide what's the correct spelling of this person's name in english translitteration: Germanos or Yermanos, Karavangelis or Karavaggelis or Karavagelis, as all the versions circulatte around the internet, in books etc. and it confuses the readers and internet surfers looking for info.
I tried to be as unbiased as possible, I quoted only the book written by the person in question which can always be verified expecially by people interested in the subject, so in the name of objectivity I hope this will not be deleted.
--Vbb-sk-mk 01:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I tried to be as unbiased as possible, I included what the person in question wrote in his own autobiography (memoirs) and I included a source which can be verified.
--Vbb-sk-mk 04:27, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update finished 

message: Владиката Каравангелис
Каравангелис*, пастирът Христови,
яви се весел при пашата пак:
- Паша ефенди! Днес комити нови
открих: готви тъмници и окови.
Бог нек закриля царя наши драг!
- Владико, аферим на теб и слава.
Слуга си верен на султана, брава!
 
II
Каравангелис, верният слуга
на падишаха, пак е при пашата:
- Ефенди, радост пълни ми душата:
комити други аз открих сега.
Против исляма дигаха раята!
- Фала и чест на тебе, баш кишиш**.
Султана много ще задоволиш!
 
III
Каравангелис, честният владика,
яви се пак и с тържествующ глас:
- Паша ефенди, радостен извика,
готви бесилки: трийсет йощ клетнйка,
душмани царски, днес подуших аз!
- Брилянтен орден в знак на благодарност
султанът готви зарад твойта вярност.
IV
Каравангелис пак се появи:
- Паша ефенди, веч съмненье няма:
комити с пушки крият се във храма.
Нек паднат тозчас техните глави
под славний ятаган на Дин-Исляма!
Кога излезе черний грък, пашата, блед,
плюна по него и пошушна: пис миллет***!
София, 8 януари 1904 г.
———————————————
- * Гръцки владика в Македония днес, прочут по мръсните си шпионства и предателства спрямо въстаниците.
- ** Главен духовник.
- *** Мръсен народ.
Written in Sofia on 8 January 1904. Source (in Bulgarian).
Jackanapes 17:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bulgarian poet [[Ivan Vazov]] against Karavangelis  

message: Please provide the information you mention about karavangelis!
Were in his book he mention all that you say?Which page please and what are his exact words! I was unable to find any from the information you mention! 
I would like to see some clear references and not quotes from Lithoksoou book please!
From were is the reference that "He is personally responsible[1] for various crimes[1] committed against the local population in Macedonia including, among other things his personal involement[1] in the planning and organization of the massacre in the village of Zagorichani (later renamed Vasilyas) executed by the greek armed groups on the 25th of March 1905."
What are the sources that back up such a claim?
(Seleukosa 23:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: what kind of question is that Seleukosa? the information is provided by karavagelis himself.his book is available in every bookstore and library in greece, if you want to read it of course (seems you dont).like it or not he cooperated with the turkish army all the time,beside volunteers from southern greece he was recruiting criminals, albanians, turks and whatnot.indeed he mentions only few recruited locals,you have already listed their names (2-3 important persons - commanders).and worst of all he admits in his memoirs that he made a list of persons to be killed / spared  in the massacre in the village of Zagorichani. he was personally responsible for that as he was involved in the organisation of that masacre. but who am i talking to anyway. wikipedia, what a joke. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nababati (talk • contribs) 03:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Were are the evidence about Karavangelis?

message: Already it has been discused above. Do not post fakely "sourced material" 
Seleukosa 20:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  recent POV edits

message: Please stop pushing POV. I do know it is painful not to have your own history and to try to find one! Try to read further about Greek history and stop using many, many fake accounts! It really doesn't help! There are very interesting articles in Wikipedia about the Greeks, the Greek language the Demography of Greece and the Demography of Ottoman Occupied Macedonia. It is going to be really helpful for you to read something interesting about history!
Seleukosa 00:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seleukosa, I had the opportunity to check the mentioned book myself and I can confirm that the quotes are correct (despite the... well.. not so good english translation). As mentioned before, the book is a firsthand autobiographical source and its available in every bookstore or library in your country. I strongly reccomend that you verify it yourself.  Brian ODonell 21:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. And you wouldn't happen to be a sockpuppet of Guirorata/Greped/Dagolapnes would you?--NetProfit 23:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Stop pushing POV

message: It's original research to use quotes to prove whether Karavangelis did or did not do something. You need a secondary source. The quotes by themselves have no place here; they belong in wikiquote.--NetProfit 21:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research 

message: hmm, this is rather entertaining:
# now the greeks are suddenly denouncing the words of their own "hero"? well, he said what he said in his own memoirs, theres nothing we can do.
# Netprofit previously insisted that a "secondary source" must be used instead of an authobiographical book. But, after the article was reverted to a Greek-POV version, Netprofit suddenly stopped complaining :) Now suddenly that book is good enough to be used as a source? :) double standards?
# Netprofit protested against the previous version claiming that the article contains an "original research". However, from what you can see just above my comment, its actually Seleukosa that is making a sort of personal research on the matter :)
# At some point Seleukosa claims that the quotes are fake, then he/she complains that they are not authentic but they are taken from Lithoksou, and finally he/she changes his or her mind and admits that Karavangelis indeed said what he said, but "he meant something else"(?!) and therefore, now Seleukosa is trying to give us an interpretation of what Karavangelis "really wanted to say" and to tell us "what he really did" or "didnt do"(?!) Sele,  are you maybe an academic specialized on this particular subject? Or will you at least enlighten us, mortals with some neutral sources? 
# Netprofit disputed the neutrality of the previous version, however the version that he prefers is also one-sided and non-neutral (shortly saying: its pro-Greek).
# Seems that everyone who disagrees with Seleukosas POV is risking to be labeled a sockpuppet, however, it seems to me that  Netprofit is actually Seleukosas sockpuppet or meatpuppet (but I will not even bother to prove that).Daveebamugz 00:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interesting 

message: Let me repeat so that the incredible amount of different ID's should understand the above arguments and stop reverting into POV!!!
a) All the quotes that are tried to be used as sources are taken from Lithoksou book not from the original text off Karavangelis! This is obvious from the problematic translation and the deletion of passages within passages!
b) Lithoksou (who is part of the Slav-Macedonian extreme historiography ) uses quotes from Karavangelis book out of context and ill translated. The most obvious example is the use of the term "Mitropolia" which is mentioned twice!!
c) Even if we do accept those quotes only as ill translated but original, the passages that use them as source are all POV and original research (to use a polite term)!! Try to read what I have written above! 
Either case the article is remaining as it was written originally by user kapnisma! 
d) Were exactly are the user pages of users Daveebamugz/Guirorata/ Greped/Dagolapnes/Yeqry ??? I am realy interesting to know!!!! 
Seleukosa 09:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  stop pushing POV 

message: This artcle has several issues:
#Its one-sided and non-neutral (represents only the official Greek point of view)
#There is only one source, his authobiography (represents the perspective of the author only)
#Also the factual accuracy of some of the statements is dubious  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dzole (talk • contribs) 19:25, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Several issues 

message: What is the reason for keep adding a picture? Germanos Karavangelis was Bishop of Kastoria and as a bishop he was official of the Ottoman Empire. There are probably many pictures of him with other Ottoman officials.
What is that picture suppose to prove beside the fact that he was living in the Ottoman Empire? The constant repapering of this picture is simple POV pushing. We have faced the same problem in the previous year with similar edits.
Seleukosa (talk) 14:39, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's supposed to prove that "look, he was a filthy Turkish collaborator, lynch him". That's my issue with it. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 14:59, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: He was "a filthy Turkish collaborator" by his words. I added some info about his activity during the Ilinden-Preobrajenie Uprising and about his role of massacreas in Zeleniche and Zagorichani during the Struggle for Macedonia. Подпоручикъ (talk) 21:16, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Stop retreaving the article like PC bot, Germanos Karavangelis himself said he cooperated with turks against bulgarians. That can be seen not only in Brailsford`s article, but in personal memoars of Karavangelis. You delete the info, because of your personal willing! Подпоручикъ (talk) 22:36, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  You messed up the article just to add your POV, using a primary source. What you need is a secondary source lending weight to the statement or whatever facts you want to highlight in this biographical article, otherwise it's pure OR. --Zakronian (talk) 18:56, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing an irrelevant picture

message: He was a highly controvercial person, but he plaied his cards exellent. Do not delete the facts about his life. He was not a God's man. The games with the Turks a his anti-Bulgarian cruelity were notorious. Jingby (talk) 12:17, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Mate, if you can't understand what's the problem with your version then i'm not sure i can help you, really ! Mentioning the Bulgarian POV in one sentence might be appropriate, but all that stuff there was just a POV advocacy. Think of the historical context and you might be able to understand why almost no one outside the Bulgarian nation knows this man for the facts you exposed here and why you can't find a non-Bulgarian secondary source to establish their noteworthyness.--Δρακόλακκος (talk) 08:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh dear. For years now, as long as I can remember, these passages have been coming and going. Always based near-literally on tendentious sources of partisan patriotic historiography. What strikes me is that no editor has ever, in all these years, made the slightest attempt at covering the historical facts in question in a way that even so much as pretends to maintain a tone of neutrality. All everybody seems ever to be interested in is to use material as a means to either blacken or glorify this person's memory. Historical facts are being perceived as interesting by editors only under the perspective that they can be evaluated as positive or negative under the ideological premises of their various patriotic traditions. This is so very boring. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:44, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless you're suggesting someone should make a summary of this narrative based on the sources Jinjiby used, that coverage reguires finding an impartial source first. I've spend some time checking English bibliography available in googlebooks and i've not found anything on the reported incidents, not much info about the man in general. His Ottoman connections can be inserted somehow i guess. I've no idea how the rest could be summarized without commiting OR.  --Δρακόλακκος (talk) 01:14, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Excuse me, Greek friends!

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131101074154/http://www.arts.yorku.ca/hist/tgallant/documents/livianos_001.pdf to http://www.arts.yorku.ca/hist/tgallant/documents/livianos_001.pdf
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thread_title:  External links modified