Talk:Standing bell

message: My first wife and I purchased 2-10” frosted crystal bowls between 1986-1988. A gentleman, whose name I can’t recall, came to the Bodhi Tree Bookstore in Beverly Hills, California, where we were both working, to sell to the store. The sale did not happen at the time, though we were personally interested. He claimed to be the first to market the bowls, and described the manufacturing process to us. He claimed to be on the inside of the quartz chip industry, the one making the bowls, and the discoverer of their tonal quality. We did not verify his claims, as it was unimportant to us; though, they were not on the market anywhere else at the time, as far as we could ascertain, even through our sources at the world famous store. We went to his home to view, play and hear the bowls, selected 2 different notes, and paid a much smaller amount for each than current market value. I still have mine. I’m not sure if my X-wife does, though I imagine so. She is an internationally recognized author, workshop & retreat  leader, and trance Channeling instructor. I use mine for meditation, shamanic trance, ecstatic dance, and healing.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:800:3FD:E572:4D5B:8E8B:6698 (talk) 00:13, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I was going to delete this:
"Crystal singing bowls
Crystal singing bowls are one of the most powerful, beautiful and easy to utilize healing tools available today. These bowls are specially made for it's healing effect. 
They are made from 99% silica sand (quartz) and are literally spun into being in a centrifugal mould which is heated to 4000 degrees and an electric arc in the centre
fuses the individual grains into one whole. This is why the inside of the bowls is smooth and the outside granular and sparkly like tiny quartz grains. When they come out of the mould they are then tuned. This is done through a process similar to sanding down the bowl on the outside or by trimming the bowls height until the required note is found. The outside rim of the bowl is then played by pulling a suede mallet or a beater with a large rubber ball on the end around it which causes a friction and the sound is then produced. Think of how a sound is produced when a wine glass is rimmed with a wet finger. They may also be lightly taped to create a more bell like ‘dong’.
Crystal singing bowls were originally a by product from the computer industry, quartz can be heated to high temperatures so quartz ‘crucibles’ were use to grow computer chips and other components within them. Crystal Singing bowls first came into being as healing tools in 1990.
Tibetan ‘7’ metal bowls which work in a similar way have been in use for centuries. More recently the quartz bowls have been infused 
with other gemstones such as Ruby and Rose Quartz as well as precious metals such as gold and silver. Crystal bowls are so powerful as they combine several healing modalities; sound healing, crystal healing and healing through light and colour. These properties can be further enhanced by the power of focused intention. 
Sound healing works on the principle that everything in our universe is energy which has a vibration. Everything in existence within the universe is in a vibrational state. The frequency at which we normally vibrate is called resonance. Certain sounds therefore will resonate with different organs and parts of the body. Sound has been scientifically proven to have an effect on our autonomic, immune & endocrine systems as well as the neuropeptide transmitters in our
brain. Sound healing practitioners’ look at their clients from this perspective and seek to balance their clients ‘dis-ease’ through correction of vibrational imbalances in
their energetic system i.e. their aura or electromagnetic blueprint. When an organ in the body is not functioning at its optimum its sound pattern will be off, yet by re
introducing the correct sound pattern this will help it to heal and return to health through the law of resonance. This law states that when one energetic system encounters
another, similar system, their vibrations must come into a state of resonance or harmonic vibration. 
It has also been documented how sound can effect matter. 80% of our bodies are water and the effect that sound has on water has been photographically demonstrated in  Dr Masaru Emoto’s book  `The Hidden Messages in Water’. Different sounds produced different types of geometric shapes within frozen water. Playing ‘Mozart’ produced beautiful symmetrical snowflake like crystals whilst discordant sound had no clear structure. You can imagine then the power of sound on the Water within our bodies! Dr Hans Jenny demonstrated how matter responds to sound using Cymatics.
Cymatics is the use of ‘Pure Tone’ or ‘sine waves’ within the audible spectrum to produce physical patterns on a medium such as liquid or sand. A good example of this is how the ‘Shri Yantra’ pattern is produced by the ‘Aum’ sound.
Crystal bowls are unique in sound healing as they produce ‘pure tones’ when played. When we produce a sound with our voices or other instruments the note waivers and varies. With crystal singing bowls the note does not waiver. This produces a wave of energy known as a ‘sine’ wave that spreads out for a kilometre from the bowl in all directions and lasts for several minutes. Sine waves appear in nature in ocean waves and light waves. At higher frequencies sound converts into colour which is within the spectrum of light.
Sine waves have the same energetic pattern that occurs in
our brain in alpha state. In the alpha brain wave state
the brainwaves run at about 8 to 12 cycles per seconds or
hertz. This is a calm meditative state where the person is
still alert and the is more receptive to learning, focusing
and suggestion. 
Crystal healing also works with vibration. Scientifically
Quartz crystals have been shown to have high piezoelectric &
pyroelectric properties. The piezoelectric effect is
produced when a quartz crystal is compressed, which causes
it to release a voltage of electricity and sometimes light.
With Crystal bowls this compression of the crystalline
structure occurs when the bowl is played. Pyroelectricy is
caused by variation in temperature of the crystal and causes
the energy within the crystal to expand when heated and
contract upon cooling. This cooling would then store the
energy within the crystalline structure. In my experience
the crystal bowl ‘warms up’ when played. Even very small
changes in temperature have been shown to produce this
pyroelectric effect. Quartz crystals have the ability to
take in energy, store it, redirect it and amplify it. Quartz
absorbs white light and therefore has every colour frequency
within it. Our bodies also contain silica and some of our
glands are said to oscillate like crystals. Glands like the
pineal gland are even crystalline in shape and structure as
are cells right down to the molecular level. So quartz
crystals will resonate with these structures. The bowls that
have other gemstones fused with them will also have the 
metaphysical properties of that stone. Colour plays a part
in
this as does the individual mineral content of the stone.
For 
example the gemstone turquoise is good for helping with
joint
pain and problems such as arthritis. Turquoise is a mineral 
rich in copper; copper bracelets have been used for
centuries 
to bring sufferers relief from these ailments, so the stone 
will thus have a similar effect.
Crystal bowls work as a synergy between all of the above
mentioned modalities. As quartz has the ability to take in
energy and vibration and as our thoughts are waves of energy
or vibration the bowls will absorb these ‘thought
vibrations’ and amplify them. Carlos Castaneda said there's
an immeasurable, indescribable force which shamans called
"intent" and absolutely everything that exists in the entire
cosmos is connected to it. When we focus our thoughts with
laser like clarity and precision we are connecting to the
vibration of that which we seek to manifest. Quartz bowls
will hone our thoughts and make them clearer. Through the
law of attraction these clear thoughts then magnetize those
things to us. The film ‘The Secret’ clearly documents how
and why positive, clear thought brings those things that we
focus on into being. It also demonstrates how we create our
reality by our thoughts and the vibration that they and we
as individuals hold. Positive thought has been shown to
produce positive changes in out physiology. Therefore the
more we ‘intend’ and believe the crystal singing bowls will
effect those and others the more they will."
Because it is not fact and doesn't belong on Wikipedia. I'm only posting it here because I see now that there is some debate about the worthiness of this information. If anyone sees anything in here that belongs in the article, feel free to put it back in. Hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes here, I just don't see anything of value in the above text. Conical Johnson (talk) 02:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Pseudo-science

message: I've removed, "It is reportedly very difficult to master; if done incorrectly the bowl will produce no sound". This gives the impression that producing the sound is a difficult thing. This is not so, or at least, not for all bowls: I lived with a guy who had one last year, and it was very easy for me and other housemates to get it to produce the sound. — Matt Crypto 08:10, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Difficulty

message: I would very much like this paragraph to be investigated, sourced and referenced and included!  I do not have my notes currently but I will in the not too distant future. :-D
Neuroanthropology and cognitive neuroscience are conducting research into the trance induction of altered states of consciousness (possibly engendering higher consciousness} resulting from neuron firing  entrainment with these polyharmonics and multiphonics.  Related research has been conducted into neural entraining with percussive polyrhythms. The timbre of traditional singing bowls and their polyrhythms and multiphonics are considered meditative and calminative and the harmony inducing effects of this potentially consciousness alterning tool are being explored by scientists, medical professionals and therapists.
: Cool, please do, but don't forget Wikipedia:Reliable sources and WP:NPOV -- I'm pretty sure that this stuff is not mainstream. — Matt Crypto 14:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Understatement is a staple of British humor." — Matt Crypto 15:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiphonic trance induction 

message: *James, William The varieties of religious experience (1902) 
*Tart, Charles T., editor. Altered States of Consciousness (1969) 
*Tart, Charles T. States of Consciousness (2001) 
*Wier, Dennis R. Trance: from magic to technology (1995) 
I apologize if this is the wrong way to add something to the discussion.  I couldn't figure out how to add a new section.  My comment is simply that the image that accompanies this article is perhaps misleading.  The gong/bell at Kiyomizu-dera in Kyoto, Japan is not used as a singing bowl but rather as a single-strike gong.  I'm not even sure that it CAN function in the typical "singing bowl" fashion by rubbing the mallet around the edge.  I think the image should be removed and, if possible, another image of an ACTUAL "singing bowl" should replace it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.198.192 (talk) 01:22, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: All of these appear to be pseudoscience, and not suitable for inclusion in this article. The first doesn't mention standing bells/singing bowls at all. MichaelMaggs (talk) 21:38, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: Singing bowls come from a shamanic tradition! The Himalayan tradition is fundamentally animistic and shamanic!  Give this a read http://www.thameshudson.co.uk/books/Shamanism_and_Tantra_in_the_Himalayas/9780500511084.mxs/34/0/ (accessed:  3 December 2006).
There is a fundamental misunderstanding here...meditative states are a form of trance... sleeping is also a form of trance.  Even conscious awareness in Beta is a trance. Trance involves filtering of information and brain functioning. It is a matter of functionality and efficiency. There is published evidence.  Have you looked? Do u know of the Oracle in the Himalayan tradition? Are you a Buddhist practitioner? Do you regularly sound a singing bowl?  I am a Bonpo Dzogchenpa in a traditional lineage. I employ singing bowls amongst other shamanic technologies. Throat singing induce similar brain states or trance states. In the Japanese tradition the Shakahatchi is used similarly for trance induction and meditation. Your understanding is cursory.  I would like this issue to be put forward for a peer review.  Why are trances 'scary'?  Your ill informed and irrational fear born of ignorance is what is terrifying. I take offence at your misinformed value judgement of me and referring to me as "insane". I am also disappointed that you are Wiki-kin. Inform yourself. Conduct a current literature review of publications and peer review literature before making rash and unfounded determinations.  Your understanding of "trance" is limited and your assertions false. Read the literature. I appreciate your views on the trance induction and I will ensure in the future that when i reintroduce the information about trance induction that it is referenced immediately. Your ignorance on traditional fountain bowls shows how cursory your understanding of the subject matter is. B9 hummingbird hovering 06:22, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Singing bowl differences of perception and opinion 

message: Convergent disciplies of neuroanthropology, ethnomusicology, electroencephalography, neurotheology and cognitive neuroscience are conducting research into the trance induction of altered states of consciousness (possibly engendering higher consciousness} resulting from neuron firing  entrainment with these polyharmonics and multiphonics.  Related research has been conducted into neural entraining from percussive polyrhythms. The timbre of traditional singing bowls and their polyrhythms and multiphonics are considered meditative and calminative and the harmony inducing effects of this potentially consciousness alterning tool are being explored by scientists, medical professionals and therapists.
*James, William The varieties of religious experience (1902) 
*Tart, Charles T., editor. Altered States of Consciousness (1969) 
*Tart, Charles T. States of Consciousness (2001) 
*Wier, Dennis R. Trance: from magic to technology (1995) 
*Hoffman, Kay (1998). The Trance Workbook:  understanding & using the power of altered states. Translated by Elfie Homann, Clive Williams, and Dr Christliebe El Mogharbel. Translation edited by Laurel Ornitz.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs).
: All of these appear to be pseudoscience, and not suitable for inclusion in this article. Most of these have already been listed above. MichaelMaggs (talk) 21:38, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Singing bowl as vehicle for multiphonic trance induction 

message: <removed -- sorry, we can't duplicate copyright material without permission, even on talk pages. — Matt Crypto 21:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Information for later inclusion in singing bowl trance induction section 

message: It is important to have separate sections for new singing bowls and traditional ones. Their fabrication is different which also results in significant resonance differences. Fountain bowls as a subset of traditional bowls are a documented fact. This is not conjecture and is documented in the literature I have cited. Whomever keeps on reverting the changes I have implemented I invite discussion and dialogue on differences to mutually resolve issues. I have not as yet reinstated a section about trance induction but I will gather further information. I have seen it in the past in one of the Journal of Consciousness(?) articles in the The University of Melbourne Baillieu Library and comparable information in The State Library of Victoria. I appreciate that the Brain Wave and Singing Bowl article that I pasted above is not well referenced nor well written but that does not negate that there is a body of reputable research published in peer review literature. Please make edits to this new structure of the article but do not merge traditional bowls with new bowls nor delete the sentences on fountain bowls (this should be a subsection of traditional bowls in the future), nor the references. What is the justification for deleting references? B9 hummingbird hovering 00:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure of article 

message: I have temporarily protected this page to stop the edit war which has been going on for the last, um, month or so. Please discuss the issues here. Please respect the civility and no personal attacks policies; focus on arguments, not attacking the other person. Further, I would ask that people sign their comments on this page using four tildes: ~~~~. — Matt Crypto 21:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Protection

message: Thank you for protecting this post. The version that you chose to protect is the long standing text that was composed by leading experts on the subject and revised for several months before B9 Hummingbird began his assault on rationality. This individual has chosen to replace a straightforward and factual description about the object with his own highly subjective and conjectural theoretical ideas about the use of the object. I maintain that the usefullness of this post is to introduce people to the object with simple and factual statements, ie "a singing bowl is a type of bell" rather than B9's more controvertial approach of making claims like "a singing bowl is a tool for trance induction." Well, I've been working with singing bowls for years and I don't see them as a tool for trance or any other mystical mumbo jumbo. Let's keep it clear and simple. Let's inform people without scaring them away with high-brow new-age theory. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.2.161.89 (talk) 23:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  thank you for protecting 'singing bowl' 

message: I thank you for locking 'singing bowl' and acknowledge the page locked is not an endorsement of the version therein. Something needed to happen to progress this stonewall. What does this undisclosed editor think the feeling of wellbeing they experience when resonating the singing bowl is? What is the mechanism that initiates this state?  Answers to these questions do have a place within this article.  It is a form of meditative trance. Regardless, I have cited references and requested dialogue with this editor. The other editor has not endeavoured to enter into dialogue and has provided no references to support their assertions and consistency refuses to create a login for probity. The other editor also resorts to offensive assertions and mud-slinging in an effort to slander me and the content which is disrespectful and inappropriate.  They are railroading and I assert that they are endeavouring to commercially profit from perpetuating ignorance. I would assert that a regular user of singing bowls would be more harmonious and inclusive in their relationships and would appreciate the value of difference and the importance of different voices in scholarship. At minimum, I would like a clear distinction between 'new singing bowls' and 'traditional' ones and the inclusion of the sentence on fountain bowls.  The references cited should be included as they are reputable and no others have as yet been entered. Let the other editor provide additional references that support their claims or counter what has been stated. This difference adds to the interest of the article and is demonstrably inclusive of different perspectives which is true to the voice of neutrality that is of the guiding ethos of Wikipedia. The editor should be encouraged to create an account so true dialogue can be entertained. I have clearly stated that I am willing to work together to find a mutually agreeable resolution. May I ask how this situation is now to be progressed?  B9 hummingbird hovering 02:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Singing bowl protection 

message: en-esed phonetics and word by word translation:
 "dzban woden nosiw pooki uho penkwo" 
 "vessel water cary until ear brake-down"
its usualy used in pl old tales. it mean "the pitcher hold up waters until the handle (ear shaped) was 'out of order'" ~ "until the time things was ok and afer not" is there any simmilar poverb or words usage ? Nasz 00:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Der Krug geht so lange zum Wasser, bis er bricht - German proverb, literal meaning is essentially the same. Metaphorical meaning: people tend to do what's in their habit, until one day they go too far and suffer some mishap. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 13:07, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  what do you think about this powerb? 

message: This article currently sounds like an advertisement for antique bowls. There's no reason high-quality modern bowls would be musically inferior.
::the fabrication method and usage of a suite of metals in alloy result in a sound quality that modern singing bowls do not have.  It isn't just the antique factor it is their fabrication.
B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 15:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ad 

message: It is my understanding that any bell with sufficient elasticity will produce a number of modes of standing vibration, all of which may occur simultaneously in varying amplitudes. I would like to see a definitive citation that refutes the claim that modern cast bowl are incapable of thus vibrating in multiple modes simultaneously. Certainly suspended bells that have been cast are capable of this multi-modal vibration (cf. http://www.ausbell.com/Polytone/polytone.html ). While I do not dispute that careful craftsmanship in the hammering process can have a profound effect on the vibrational modes that will occur, I am just not convinced that it was lost to the ancients.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.123.47.32 (talk) 19:34, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overtones only produceed by antique instruments?? 

message: The Feinstein article cited in the references is clearly the work of a vendor who has no grasp of the physics of bells. While it is conceivable that a bell may have damping features applied to it's design that will allow only one mode of vibration, normally this is not the case as it requires highly specialized construction. Thus, assuming that the metal out of which the bell is made is sufficiently elastic, it will vibrate in several modes. The alloy components may shape the elasticity properties of a given bell, but they are not in and of themselves responsible for specific overtones.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.123.47.32 (talk) 20:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antiques Overtones, and References 

message: The Feinstein article cited in the references is clearly the work of a vendor who has no grasp of the physics of bells. While it is conceivable that a bell may have damping features applied to it's design that will allow only one mode of vibration, normally this is not the case as it requires highly specialized construction. Thus, assuming that the metal out of which the bell is made is sufficiently elastic, it will vibrate in several modes. The alloy components may shape the elasticity properties of a given bell, but they are not in and of themselves responsible for specific overtones.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.123.47.32 (talk) 20:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antiques Overtones, and References 

message: I have always doubted whether there ever were singing bowls in the Himalayan regions. I think the excuse that the texts have yet to be discovered by Westerners is a bit of an exaggeration, seeing as we have so many "secret" texts out in the open, having been translated and published that if there were to be any such text on singing bowls, it would have been wide spread by now. I have never seen the use of a singing bowl in any Tibetan Buddhist center, rather, what I have seen is the reverse, that these instruments are used because they are provided, simply to mark the begining and ending of meditation sessions. It is quite clear to me that claims of these bowls in images are rather a reference to the begging bowls which are part of a monk's possesions.
Jmlee369 (talk) 08:50, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use in the Himalayas 

message: There are many interesting ideas in this one but no references cited! There are also many parts written in first person form. I might not disagree with things said in this chapter but this is no way of writing an encyclopedia. Ahabvihrea (talk) 21:22, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crystal singing bowls chapter 

message: The term "harmonic" is used rather loosely in the article. For example "High quality singing bowls produce a complex chord of harmonic overtones." From a musical acoustics point of view, this is incorrect, as the term "harmonic" refers to an overtone whose frequency is a simple integer multiple of a fundamental frequency. A series of harmonics is produced by resonators such as plucked strings and blown pipes, that make the customary sounds of melodic and harmonic music.
The sound of a singing bowl is interesting partly because its overtones (commonly called partials) are distinctly inharmonic. That is, their frequencies do not fall on exact integer ratios, but "produce a complex chord." The sounds of church bells tuned in the western style also have inharmonic partials, the most prominent of which is usually tuned to make a minor third interval with respect to the perceived fundamental pitch. This minor third sounds harmonious, if somewhat mournful, when a single bell is sounded, but rather clashing when a peal of bells is sounded, whose pitches are drawn from a major scale. It should also be noted that modern bell founding technology [] has given rise to bells that can sound more than one distinct pitch at the same time. (Later note. www.ausbell.com.au was cited in a previous comment. Well worth a visit.)
I have to say here that one of my reasons for interest in singing bowls is that they may be almost unique amongst physical instruments in their capability of producing sustained inharmonic partials, when suitably "bowed" by stroking with a moistened leather-wrapped mallet. Perhaps the term "multiphonic" in the article is referring to this property. Having listened to the two sound clips (bowed and struck sounds), the inharmonic partials are clearly heard in the struck tone, but the bowed sound is more harmonic in nature, and the singing quality appears to arise from undulations in the strength of basically harmonic partials. Oh well. 
Boynstye (talk) 00:27, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harmonics and partials 

message: The Low Anthem's  album Oh My God, Charlie Darwin has been noted on US public radio as including a "Tibetan singing bowl" selected among its store-mates for having its fundamental on C. May deserve at least "and rarely in Western popular music".--Jerzy•t 22:31, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Western recording 

message: The bottom of my singing bowl is concave, the one of a friend is convex.  Thus, the contact with the surface it is standing on is different for each type.  Does anyone know more about this? Hpvpp (talk) 00:54, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  function of differently shaped bottom 

message: I removed oncologists from the list of medical professionals using singing bowls.  It seems unlikely to me that singing bowls can be used to cure cancer, and there is no inline citation used to support this implication.  I suppose singing bowls could be used to aid the psychological well being of cancer patients, but then the it probably wouldn't be oncologists using the bowls, and in any case, oncological uses are not mentioned anywhere in the body of the article to clarify what is meant.Wikimedes (talk) 19:31, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It still says something similar in the lead... They are used to help treat cancer patients... But maybe treating is not necessarily oncology. Andrewa (talk) 14:45, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  oncologists use singing bowls? 

message: As the lead indicates, these are closer to a bell than a gong; The Hornbostel–Sachs classification of a singing bowl (aka bowl gong) seems to me to be 111.242 Bells – The vibration is weakest near the vertex, unlike suspended gongs which are generally 111.241 Gongs – The vibration is strongest near the vertex. Andrewa (talk) 14:45, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Hornbostel–Sachs

message: This article does not contain the original names in the original languages. I can not find how "Rin Gong" is written in japanese.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.185.168.119 (talk) 15:54, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Native Names 

message: Could someone add a picture demonstrating how the sound is forming within the bowl? It'd be cool, not to mention tell something what the bowl actually is, not just its useage and new-age babbling.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.134.159.198 (talk) 19:23, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Physics of the bowl? 

message: Nearly every book written about 'Tibetan Singing Bowls' is nonsense. At least Frank Perry admits that his findings come from direct personal experience, which is the motive from his recent book on the subject. Many of the early western vendors created 'magical' stories about them, which have been carried now for decades by people who fail to do the research. My research began in the early 1970's, in Nepal, before any of the shops there began selling them. A few years after my first field studies, the first shop opened on a corner near Durbar Square. Now there are about 1000 shops in Kathmandu Valley alone selling them. Technically, they are a bell, even though in some Asian cultures they are called 'resting gongs.' So what we call a Tibetan Singing Bowl, by technical definition, is a 'standing bell.' They did not originate in Tibet, more likely, and supported by the Tibetan academic Samten Karmay, around Assam India, within the 'blacksmith caste.' My research suggests, that the bronze bowl itself, originated in the Zagros Mountains, and not Persia as Feinstein alludes to. The antique bowls were made and sourced differently than new bowls. There’s no doubt that you can manufacture a high quality singing bowl today, but how are they different than some of the antiques? Some, not all, antique bowls were made from a different quality of raw material. Today, industrial copper and tin is used. In the past, it was dug from the ground and had up to 14 trace elements to it. But the one thing that is overlooked by everyone, is the content of the bowl itself. Different types of Copper were used, and the Himalayas have many types of Copper. You can’t make ‘bell metal’ without Copper. Some of the rarest types of Copper, are found throughout the entire Himalayan traverse. The old antique Himalayan bowls, which are known as ‘1%’ bowls in Nepal, were made from a very rare type of Copper, and when mixed with Tin, became one of the most resonant forms of bronze. This is the missing ‘link’ that all the so called experts have missed. When you take that alloy, and handcraft it with great quality and knowledge. You will have a singing bowl that is amazing, and you won’t find a new bowl today that can match it. The main reason, is that the rare type of Copper I mentioned has been mined out, for the most part. I wrote a short piece about the bowls at this link, if you care to read it.  https://soundhealingforum.discussion.community/post/singing-bowls-separating-truth-from-myth-7858953  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 9waysacademia (talk • contribs) 17:59, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  It's Hard to get to the Facts through all the Psycho-Babble 

message: Copying these from the deletion page. ,  (meh),  . Mostly not "in-universe" anyway. Two more:  .  Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:45, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: , thanks, those are most useful. I've re-listed them below, ready to be checked. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 09:13, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: , thank you for your valiant efforts to find good sources for this article! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:34, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some sources, maybe 

message: This relates to the total re-write of the article that I started in November 2017. MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:45, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: A complete rewrite: checking sources

message: Sources with useful information have already been added to the article, and aren't repeated here: see the article references. MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:32, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Checked (useful)

message: The following have been checked, mostly in hard copy, but don't contain anything suitable for inclusion in this article:
* Reading Buddhist Art: An Illustrated Guide to Buddhist Signs and Symbols (2002), Meher McArthur
** Brief mention of gongs and bells on p58, but nothing useful for this article. MichaelMaggs (talk) 12:37, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Checked at British Library (not usable in the article) 

message: I don't have access to these. If anybody does, please check them. From their titles, several don't seem promising as reliable sources, though. MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:32, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not checked (not available at the British Library) 

message: The following have very interesting material but as personal websites/blogs they are not considered reliable sources per WP:SELFPUBLISH:
* Frank Perry's website. MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:32, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Personal websites and blogs (not usable in the article)

message: I think some of the interest in singing bowls comes from that they are claimed to have all sorts of cool effects. Should we have a section for that, say, something similar to Kombucha#Health_claims? If so, can "in-universe" sources be used? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:52, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It might be possible to include a brief mention of some of the pseudoscientific claims, assuming they are notable enough, but that would need to be done very carefully to comply with WP:FRINGE. I'd prefer to avoid a separate section, if we can, as the very existence of such a 'cool effects' section will be a magnet to some editors who want to pad this article with fringe theories. Let's get the reliably-sourced facts added first, then see where a mention of these theories might fit. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:58, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:42, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Claims" 

message: I've expanded the scope of this page so that we can talk about all varieties of this type of bell, and not only those that happen to be capable of 'singing' when friction is applied.  It makes little sense to restrict an article to a particular type of sound-creation when in many cases a bell/bowl intended for striking is physically identical to one intended for singing. Most Buddhist bells are not and never have been created as friction idiophones, and if we restrict to 'singing' it's impossible to discuss the history. MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:42, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: BOLD and seems like a good idea. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:30, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

text: No objection.  —PaleoNeonate – 09:27, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page moved from Singing bowl to Standing bell 

message: Doesn´t seem too terrible: The Encyclopedia of Crystals, Herbs, and New Age Elements. At least not compared to Crystal Bliss: Attract Love. Feed Your Spirit. Manifest Your Dreams.
Short but why not:Taoism For Dummies Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:52, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Both added to list above.  MichaelMaggs (talk) 22:10, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source 

message: In his book Percussion Instruments and their History James Blades states that "The earliest dated resting bell is preserved in the Mission Inn Museum, Riverside, California. It is dated Japanese year 2, corresponding to the year AD 646".  It seems that this claim may have come from an early museum catalogue; it is however doubted by Emily McEwan in her 2014 doctoral dissertation. She notes that "The supposed merits of the Mission Inn’s artifacts seemingly never ended and often veered into the realm of the ridiculous as [the catalogue writers] grasped to aggrandize the hotel’s collections".  I have likewise not been able to find a reliable source to back up Blades' statement that "The largest existing [resting bell] is believed to be the instrument in the Chao-Ch'ing monastery at Hangchow". MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:54, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: This is interesting and if including the claim, we should likely also include this criticism...  Since it is questionable, I agree with its removal for now.  —PaleoNeonate – 11:16, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Since neither claim seems at all reliable I'm not planning to add either. MichaelMaggs (talk) 13:36, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Blades probably got his information on the largest bell from The History of Musical Instruments, Sachs, Curt, Norton, NY, 1940, page 209. But it's no longer reliable, if it ever was. MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:27, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:   Claims of oldest and biggest 

message: OK, I've done pretty well as much as I can for now.  I've tried to be guided by proper academic and historical sources, and have been able to eliminate website references (which are very often hopelessly unreliable) almost entirely. Sources looked at but not used are listed in the Checking sources section, above.  I've been quite careful in attempting to comply with WP:V and WP:NOR and to reference every factual statement that could realistically be challenged. I hope you think it's an improvement. MichaelMaggs (talk) 23:32, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  A better article now, I hope 

message: Hello 12.172.165.238.  I notice you've made some radical edits to the content of this article, specifically to replace a lot of existing research and scholarly sources with material from a publication called The Singing Bowl Book by Joseph Feinstein of himalayanbowls.com, as well as inserting links to that publication. Could I ask you, please, to disclose whether you have a connection with that company? I note that your IP address geolocates to within around 50 miles of Weaverville, CA, where the company is located, according to its Twitter presence. You may not be aware that Wikipedia editors frown on edits that are made with a potential conflict of interest, and if you haven't seen it you should read WP:CONFLICT.  You should not add links to, or incorporate material from, sources that are associated with you or your company.  All the best, MichaelMaggs (talk) 22:17, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Note also that this book is selfpublished  (CreateSpace), and per WP:SPS is in most cases not to be used. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:57, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  True. Selfpublished books should not be used as sources. The claims may be perfectly true, but they need some independent source to be considered reliable. I have nothing against self published books - I have written several myself. But one should not use them as sources to facts - merely as inspirations to look further. Mlewan (talk) 07:16, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concern about edits by 12.172.165.238 

message: There is no mention made of rin bowls and their timeline, nor of Nepal and Japan where singing bowls are purported to be from.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:9000:9503:4B00:108C:42EB:38C8:CBAD (talk) 18:14, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: What WP:RS have you got? If you are interested in adding well-sourced content to the article, see WP:TUTORIAL. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:59, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

text: Hi 2603. 'Purported' is the problem. There is a huge amount of complete rubbish on the internet about the history of these bowls/bells, virtually none of which is supported by serious scholarship. The myth of an early history for 'singing bowls' (as opposed to bowls designed to be struck) is dealt with in the article. But if you are aware of additional serious sources, please say. MichaelMaggs (talk) 07:43, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  History writeup is awful