Talk:God in Mormonism

message: I deleted the following statement:
: (in particular the original 1830 edition) 
The current version of the Book of Mormon is closer than the 1830 edition to the reference made. -Visorstuff 18:16, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Book of Mormon statement

message: Considering Joseph Smith never said anything about believing in "the trinity" that Catholics and other Christian denominations accept, this article is chalk full of misinformation. Trinity means only 3 people, while many misunderstand that to mean 3 in 1! I would like to see evidence that Joseph Smith taught that. He only taught that they were ONE IN PURPOSE! The salvation of all mankind! I am sorry to say, but while I don't agree that everyone should agree with the beliefs of the LDS church, I feel most of the articles on Wikipedia relating to 'mormons' are HORRIBLY inaccurate, and should be revised, unfortunately that would be such a high volume job, it may be better to start from scratch. Wikipedia, while an open source database, should have reliable sources, and should not seek historical information in anti-mormon documents, as they prove to be innacurate. This is not only apparent in the Mormon articles, but in 7th day adventist and Jehovas witness documents as well. If you would like to read the real beliefs of the LDS church, concerning the Godhead, please visit www.lds.org or www.mormon.org . Who better to ask about Mormon beliefs, than an actual Mormon!?
The section in question was written by Mormons - and about the broader Latter Day Saint movement, not just the LDS Church. Please note that when Joseph Smith left the sacred grove that he didn't know everything about the church. Some things evolved over time as new revelation was given and doctrine was clarified. For example, Smith may have assumed that everyone realized that God and Jesus were seperate people and didn't clarify until the Kirtland period. In fact, there is evidence that he didn't teach certain things as he felt that the people would reject all of his teachings if he did. Some did leave over this issue in the kirtland period and are still part of the Latter Day Saint Movement (not LDS church) This article does a good job with the latest scholarly research available. I'm sorry that youfeel this page is so inaccurate, but from a historical view it is quite solid. -Visorstuff 23:47, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  God Head information innacurate

message: The entire article was slanted and contained a large ampunt of Trinitarian beliefs. this is an article on the views of the godhead as seen by MORMONS and should relate only that. I copied and pasted the godhood article  from the main latterday sain article as it was more accurate to their beliefes; BUT i need somone to move the citations over from the main article. please help if you can; but lets stick to the topic.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.180.189.229 (talk) 08:36, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Entire Article Rewrite 

message: The neutrality of this article needs to once more be called into question. The phrasing of the article is such that it presents the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as abstract fact rather than beliefs. Even the characterisation of the death of Joseph Smith as 'assassination' is loaded with bias, particularly when the article to which it links is titled simply ' and does not include the word 'assassination' anywhere in the body of the article. The only references provided which use this term are those produced by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints itself and should hardly be regarded as objective in this matter. These are simply the examples I noticed in the opening paragraph as I wasn't actually interested enough to read through the whole article for further examples, hence the tagging rather than simply editing it myself.
BlackAbbot (talk) 12:12, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made small adjustments to the lede, but upon scanning the article I see it full of phrases like "the Book of Mormon describes...", "Smith taught that...", and "In the Latter Day Saint movement...". Can you identify some specific examples, in the lede or otherwise, where the phrasing presents the church's beliefs as fact rather than presenting them as simply teachings or ideas? ...comments? ~BFizz 01:45, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the changes B Fizz made, since the trimmed text didn't really add to the substance of this article. However, I'm also interested in specific examples as even the now removed term of assassination doesn't strike me as POV, since at least as far as I know it was a "targeted killing of a public figure", even if it's not always called that. VernoWhitney (talk) 02:07, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: A quick scan of B Fizz's edits seem to address the issues of bias that I noted. In response to VernoWhitney's query I would quote the same article they linked; "the use of lethal force attributable to a subject of international law  with the intent, premeditation and deliberation to kill individually selected persons who are not in the physical custody of those targeting them". The pertinent phrase here is 'premeditation and deliberation', a clause invalidated by the accepted description of the group as a mob (see mob). If Smith was alive after the initial fall, as some sources claim, and then executed by firing squad, this also puts him in the physical custody of those targeting him at the time of his death.BlackAbbot (talk) 11:40, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Smith had already been shot multiple times in the window before falling. Upon seeing him hit the ground he was not stood up to stand for a firing squad, but rather shot at multiple times by the mob. This was not a state action by an authorized militia, it was a group of vigilanties that took the law into their own hands and murdered people. --StormRider 21:01, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What BlackAbbot said, in essence, is that a "mob" cannot "assassinate", due to the particular meaning of both words. From that standpoint, I agree that the use of "assassination" is iffy, though words like "murder" or "kill" certainly apply. I've made a small change to the article; changing "assassination" to "murder". ...comments? ~BFizz 21:42, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: In the past, critics felt murder was too strong of a word. Others felt that assassination was preferred because Smith was running for President. I prefer murder because it is a better description of the act; however, let's see what others think. --StormRider 22:01, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'll just add here that the definition of the word appearing on the wikipedia page on Assassination defines it as,  "to murder (a usually prominent person) by a sudden and/or secret attack, often for political reasons." I would say by all means a murder, even by a mob, is an assassination by that definition. It was sudden, secret, and was done for a number of political reasons that could be backed up by sources.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.37.155.85 (talk) 03:20, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality Disputed 

message: I don't think it makes sense to discuss the theology of the entire Latter Day Saint movement in this article. The Community of Christ basically adopts Trinitarianism. So I think that this article ought to be focuses on just Mormonism. Also, I think that rather than Godhead (Mormonism), we ought to name it something like God in Mormonism (analogous to God in Christianity). I think this makes sense because in Mormon fundamentalism, there are actually two godheads--one comprising Elohim, Jehovah, and Michael, and the other one including Michael (the Father), Jesus (the Son), and the Holy Ghost. Plus, somebody searching for the subject will not likely search for the term "godhead" unless they are Mormon. COGDEN 00:41, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Since nobody has chimed in, I'm going to make the change. If someone notices this and still objects, we can continue to discuss here. COGDEN 00:56, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll chime in. In the second paragraph of the article there's the sentence, "Originally, the faith had an essentially trinitarian conception of God . . ." referring to Mormonism. This sentence isn't true and the citation, (which reads, "Trinitarianism has been adopted by the Community of Christ, which is part of the Latter Day Saint movement of religions deriving from the teachings of Joseph Smith, but not part of Mormonism"), as well as the links it refers to don't back that statement up either. Joseph Smith, according to Mormon faith, had his first vision before he organized the Latter Day Saint church, and it was during that vision that he saw God the Father, and Jesus Christ as two separate beings with distinct and individual bodies, which is, in itself, non-trinitatian, so I don't see why this sentence is here. Mormon religions have never been trinitarian. It's only recently that the Commmunity of Christ adopted the trinity. So, since that sentence is both untrue, and what it is referring to is now irrelevant to the rest of the article, how about it just be removed?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.37.155.85 (talk) 03:31, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename to "God in Mormonism"? 

message: The article states the Book of Mormon refers to God the Father and Jesus Christ as "one". This is not true in all cases. The very first prophecy concerning Christ (1 Nephi 9:4) says, " a prophet would the Lord God raise up among the Jews--even a Messiah". In other words, the proposition that the view of God in the BOM is strictly Trinitarian or Modalist is faulty. The BOM also quotes messianic prophecies of Isaiah in which God and Christ are distinguished as two different people. --76.23.19.217 (talk) 06:51, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book of Mormon and one God 

message: Whereas no complete or completely accurate accounting of Joseph Smith's Christology is presently available, the interested student is directed to a very brief and basic summary at this url:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mnHIM_2nLqtVp7ylABx6B-wVcmXeDYpQ5CWvz4-th84/edit#  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.241.205 (talk) 19:15, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Basics 

message: Drewbigs posted the following in this article under a new section that shares this talk topic's title: 
:"Mormons view their concept of the Godhead as a restoration of the original Christian doctrine as taught by Christ and the apostles. Elements of this doctrine were restored gradually over time to the prophet Joseph Smith, as is consistent with God's method of revealing truth "line upon line, precept upon precept" (Isaiah 28:10-13, D&C 98:12, see also 1 Corinthians 3:2"I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able."). Mormons teach that in the centuries following the death of the apostles, views on God's nature began to change as a result of theologians who continued to develop doctrine despite not being called as prophets to receive revelation for the church. Mormons see the strong influence of Greek culture and philosophy (see hellenization) during this period as contributing to a departure from the traditional judeo-christian view of a corporeal, material God in whose image and likeness we were created. These post-apostolic theologians began to define God in terms of an immaterial divine substance, or ousia--a concept that found no backing in scriptureThomas Mozley "The Creed, or a Philosophy" 1893 p303, but closely mirrored elements of Greek philosophy such as Neoplatonism, which was known to have influenced many of the church fathers. Disagreement on how to define the nature of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost in the context of this divine substance finally culminated in a consensus reached at the council of Nicaea in the year 325, which officially defined God as a trinity of three persons sharing one divine substance. Mormons believe that the development process leading up to the trinity doctrine left it vulnerable to human error, because it was not founded upon God's established pattern of continued revelation through prophets."
In response to my repeated explained removal of this section, he left me the following note on my talk page:
:Hi Jgstokes, the reason for my contribution in the God in Mormonism article is because currently the article strongly leans toward the view that J.S. was just coming up with this stuff on his own, and refining it as he went along. Since this is an article on Mormonism, it think it's extremely appropriate to at least mention the heart of the matter from the Mormon point of view, which is that this doctrine was a restoration of the original Christian principle through revelation to a prophet--and that revelation doesn't come all at once, but over time.
:Also, to say that until 1835 the Mormon view was similar to trinitarianism is very misleading because the driving concept behind the trinity is the divine substance that is shared between the three persons. Mormons have never come close to classifying diety in terms of this divine substance, but see it as an example of "philosophies of man mingled with scripture"--which is exactly why they believe in the need for a restoration.
:So let me know the problems you saw (placement, length, quality, etc.) so I can do some revamping. I will definitely include a better explanation next time, until yesterday I was pretty ignorant of the whole talk and history capabilities of Wikipedia so it's been a good learning experience.
:thanks."
Since he feels so strongly about including this section, I thought I'd post it here for discussion until we reach a consensus decision. My primary concerns with it as it now stands is that it is very lengthy and wordy and at least once uses another WP page as a reference, rather than simply linking to it. I'd welcome other thoughts on this section. Please help me fine tune this so that we can include it in the article. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 21:53, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Godhead as a restoration of the original Christian doctrine 

message: Hi there,
some people feel that the title "God in Mormonism" is deceptive because not all "mormon" churches (which believe in the Book Mormon or other named "Record of the Nephites") have such a concept of God, so I also feel that "God in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" is more precise.
Do you also agree?
For example the former RLDS, now the Community of Christ and also the Church of Christ (Temple Lot) and the Fettingite and Elijah Message Churches believe in the Book Mormon, but also this book has not such a concept or view of the Lord God.
It is the LDS edition of their "Doctrine and Covenants" book and maybe partly the "Book of Abraham" of their "Pearl of Great Prize" book which is or are the basics of their (LDS) concept of God.
We feel like the original title mislead people to the thinking that all churches of the "mormon spectrum" have such a view.--Parsi123 (talk) 15:32, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  It stands to reason that not all parts of the Latter Day Saint movement may have the same view of God.  Rather than attempting to narrow the view and create an article specific to the LDS Church, this article should be appropriately expanded to reflect those views.  There appears to already be some attempt to do that in the article, where other parts of the movement are identified and represented.  So, the original title is not misleading in anyway.  "God in Mormonism" is correct and should just be addressed as noted. ChristensenMJ (talk) 16:19, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

text: I agree with ChristensenMJ. The title is not in any way misleading, and such an expansion has already started to take place. Any attempt to make this article specific only to the LDS Church is, IMHO, ill-advised and premature. Good discussion, though. --Jgstokes (talk) 22:47, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

text: The term Mormonism excludes the Community of Christ, which is part of the Latter Day Saint movement but not generally identified by the term Mormonism, especially when the term is used to refer to doctrine or theology. The Mormon theology is taught by the LDS Church and by its fundamentalist Mormon offshoots. I don't think this article needs to be expanded to include non-Mormon religions such as the Community of Christ that trace their history to the teachings of Joseph Smith, but which are generally Protestant and trinitarian. COGDEN 03:34, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original article title deceptive 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Deleted: sarcastic, hostile and does not contribute anything to the discussion. Troll material. Wcmead3 (talk) 23:11, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A peacefully peaceful message 

message: God in Mormonism includes Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. It is not only the Father. Care needs to be taken in interpreting the sources because others such as BYU clearly state that they are all God. Altanner1991 (talk) 02:04, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately it's not that simple - to quote the EOM reference already in the article - "Among Latter-day Saints, the title "God" generally identifies God the Father. Occasionally, God may refer to the unified Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (cf. 2 Ne. 31:21; D&C 20:28) and at times to each member individually (AF, pp. 159-63)". For example, when member of the Church say that Jesus is the "Son of God", he is the son of God the Father, not the son of the Godhead. "God" in some instances includes Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, but not always - I would argue it depends on context. --FyzixFighter (talk) 02:24, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: My mistake! Sorry, you're right. Thanks.Nope. Please see  for why this needs to be included in the introduction. It is actually perhaps the most common way of talking about things. Altanner1991 (talk) 02:43, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it needs to be in the lede, which is why've added a sentence to address the nuance, but the EOM reference clearly states . Based on this, and on my own experience studying LDS theology, I would disagree with your statement that it is the most common way of talking about these things. Why do you think that this is the most common way of talking about these things? --FyzixFighter (talk) 02:58, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: My experience with Christianity and Mormonism has told me that Jesus is God. It would be absurd to suggest otherwise, and yes it includes Mormonism. Could you honestly say that Jesus is not God? Not God? That's ridiculous. Altanner1991 (talk) 03:04, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

text: I have a problem with the introduction because you would never, never say that Jesus is not God. I would like to thank you though for the changes that you have made. Your recent edits are good. :) Altanner1991 (talk) 03:28, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll rebut myself saying the Holy Ghost is not commonly said as God, and so with that I'll leave it to the changes you have made, unless motions are made that want further improvements.James E. Talmage described the Holy Ghost as God in an individual sense.  p. 111:  Altanner1991 (talk) 03:57, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Care in reading sources