Talk:Colleges of the University of Oxford

message: Is that right? Do Wycliffe and the Queen's really have the same scarf? --194.98.58.121 (talk) 12:38, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: On their articles they look to be the same. I think the Queen's one is correct, but know nothing about the Wycliffe scarf. Nearly 9 years have passed and this has not been answered.--Bduke (talk) 07:34, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wycliffe Scarf 

message: I've added and started filling in a column of the Oxford Colleges' financial endowments, along similar lines to that featured on the Cambridge Colleges page. There's a link above the column which anyone else can use if they feel like continuing this project. Just scroll to the first page of financial data in the respective 2005/6 pdf file, and transcribe the figure lowest down on the left hand side (usually the largest).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.135.42 (talk) 14:53, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Financial Endowments

message: I think it may be worth adding a further column to the college table, detailing the dates the various institutions became colleges. I've marked on the "College status" dates for a few I know were founded as PPHs or other institutions, but I think there are more amongst the 18th - 20th century foundations. Also, perhaps the PPH table should indicate the affiliation of each Hall? Views? Mtpt 22:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: College/PPH tables

message: This table needs some immediate tending to as, however you try to arrange it - by clicking on the buttons next to College, Foundation etc - it wil only put teh colleges in alphabetical order or reverse alphabetical order by name. Algebra man 15:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: @Manhattia All the student numbers are for 2018, when All Souls had 9 students, so they all need to be updated to 2019, when All Souls had 10 students. Wikipedia is updated by volunteers so it can be out of date. The male and female students columns contain percentages so the total is and should be 100. TSventon (talk) 22:58, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

text: @Tsventon Ah, My misunderstanding. Manhattia (talk) 15:25, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table of Colleges 

message: I think the merger between Green and Templeton has gone through now.  Should these continue to be listed as separate (even if they're not)?  Plus Greyfriars is not longer a functional PPH.  Closed down at the end of last term IIRC.  Ka Faraq Gatri (talk) 21:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Green/Templeton 

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thread_title: File:Linacre College blade colors.png Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: It would be great to have information within the article about the Oxford colleges that are no longer. Greyfriars, Oxford is a recent example. St Bernard's College and Durham College, Oxford are the other two I'm aware of. -- Fluteflute Talk Contributions 18:12, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah just found :Category:Former colleges and halls of the University of Oxford -- Fluteflute Talk Contributions 18:13, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical Colleges 

message: Although I found the following anecdote (under College Rivalries) fairly amusing, I have my doubts concerning its authenticity:
:A recent example of this came as a result of the 2006 rugby Cuppers final between Pembroke and St Peter's that culminated in a fight between the Pink Pembroke Panther and the St Peter's Squirrel, the respective mascots of each team.
Hitherto I have not been able to find a single reputable source on this hardly ordinary, yet seemingly obscure clash of titans. The only "newspaper" so far to refer to the incident was the University of Manchester's student newspaper, the Mancunion. The article was written in 2012 - a whopping 6 years after the fight reportedly occurred, does not add any further information and only refers to it in passing. Like the Mancunion, all other sources making note of the panther and the squirrel's scuffle seem to have copied their information directly from Wikipedia.  For the time being, I've added a Citation needed tag to the anecdote. I welcome users who read or heard of the incident (or might have even been present) to alleviate me of my scepticism and restore my faith in a world where grown men dressed up as squirrels and panthers cross swords with one another to defend their team's honour.
: RensCrevits (talk) 19:49, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pembroke Panther vs St Peter's Squirrel 

message: Substituted at 12:02, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The College rivalries section is a mess with clear long standing rivalries unsourced and the only sourced one (Hertford and St Hilda's) is about a JCR resolution in one of them only a few days ago. It might not even last out the academic year. Largely these things are trivial. I good section would  be one that discussed rivalries from several hundred years ago through to the last century. Recent ones would only be mentioned if they were the older ones still continuing. The one between Hertford and St Hilda's is for facebook, not wikipedia. I do not have the time or resources here in Australia to do it. Is anyone else up to it, or shall we just delete the section? --Bduke  (Discussion) 04:54, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I would favour deletion of the section and insertion of a wikilink to College rivalry#United Kingdom at some point. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 11:03, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree about long-standing. The question is whether there are significant rivalries that can be reliably sourced. I found some anecdotes in Google books and have put a hold request for "The colleges of Oxford : their history and traditions" (c. 1891) from the Weston stacks. If it arrives I should have a bit of spare time this Weds or Thurs.  do you have any suggestions for "rivalries" that should be included? If the section can't be improved, I've no objection to deletion if that's the consensus. - Pointillist (talk) 12:29, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally, I only know about the Queens/SEH one, which existed when I went up to Queens nearly 60 years ago and I then heard it went back to when SEH was part of Queens, as is mentioned in College rivalry#United Kingdom. There is an IP editor adding sources, but they are not independent and are all recent. We need his/her contributions here. We need decent sources or delete it. --Bduke  (Discussion) 21:33, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The rivalries that strike me as long-standing are the very obvious geographical ones: Brasenose/Lincoln, Corpus/Merton, Christ Church/Pembroke, Balliol/Trinity and Queens/SEH.  But it would be good to get some facts, as my Oxford memory only covers the last 30 years. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 16:12, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I spent a couple of hours in the Weston today going through Clark's 1892 book without success. I couldn't cover the entire book in the time available but I found nothing about rivalry in the chapters on Jesus College, Exeter, BNC, Lincoln, Pembroke, Worcester, Queens and SEH (indeed the opposite with SEH as a benefactor to Queens). The Merton chapter talked a bit about Balliol having received its first endowments a little earlier than Merton, but Merton being first to have statutes: I don't think that's an enduring rivalry. The Balliol chapter described a low point in the 17th century around the time of the restoration where Balliol was very poor and Ralph Bathurst used to stand in Trinity's adjoining grounds and throw stones to break Balliol's windows. If that's relevant I can write it up. Other than that it's been a rather useless, though interesting exercise. Several chapters have wonderfully waspish remarks about nineteenth-century changes to architecture, windows, ceilings, chapel layouts &c. Oxford seems to have been a rather awful place for much of the 18th century, then picked itself up after 1807 in the nick of time to avoid odious comparisons with modern upstarts like UCL and Durham. AFAICS the current version of University of Oxford#History ignores the 15th–18th centuries entirely. - Pointillist (talk) 23:26, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I have (belatedly) added a reference for Christ Church-Pembroke and removed Hertford-St Hilda's and removed the according to whom and unreferenced tags.TSventon (talk) 11:22, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  College rivalries 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: The History section stated that the fourth oldest college is Hertford, which first became a college in 1740. This was due to an edit in May 2018 now reversed. The original text is consistent with the exclusion of St Edmund Hall from the five oldest colleges and the article on Exeter College which states that Exeter is the fourth oldest college.
81.86.211.166 (talk) 14:27, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Fourth oldest college

message: We should create two columns, indicating the percentages of U and P students for every college.
: I would oppose this as three extra columns would be needed (U, P and V) which would create extra work and make the table less manageable. TSventon (talk) 11:55, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Percentage of Undergraduates and Postgraduates 

message: Under the Postgraduate and mature colleges section, could we add the following? "Green Templeton College admits postgraduate students and clinical medical students." As per courses offered and admissions sources here: https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/colleges/green-templeton-collegehttps://www.gtc.ox.ac.uk/students/how-to-apply/courses-offered/
Foxplant2020 (talk) 13:09, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Clearly something along these lines would be sensible but I would like to check a few subtleties. Clinical medicine is slighlty anomalous within the university, being generally treated as a graduate course but with GTC bing the only graduate collage that admits for the degree  which is normlly studied at mixed colleges. The course page at your second reference is not entirely clear and your first reference lists 89 undergraduates despite describing GTC as a graduate college. Are these all clinical medics or something else? Jonathan A Jones (talk) 19:31, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: With no response in over a month, I'm treating this edit request as stale and marking it declined. If discussion resumes, the edit request may be reopened. Altamel (talk) 02:52, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

text: Jonathan A Jones, does that answer your question satisfactorily? TSventon (talk) 14:51, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose so; at least I have moved on to other things so I won't oppose other people here. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 16:03, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request 

message: I have produced a table of college coeducation dates based on Wikipedia articles. I believe that Green College and Templeton College were coeducational from foundation, but this is not mentioned in their articles. Mansfield admitted some women in the early twentieth century, but went coeducational in 1979.https://www.mansfield.ox.ac.uk/women-mansfield-brief-history I have accepted 1877 as the date of coeducation at Manchester, but reality may be more complex. I haven't included PPHs as their articles don't give dates for the admission of women.  
Name                     	Year ofFoundation	Year ofCoeducation
All Souls College        	1438             	1979
Balliol College          	1263             	1979
Brasenose College        	1509             	1974
Christ Church            	1546             	1980
Corpus Christi College   	1517             	1979
Exeter College           	1314             	1979
Green Templeton College  	2008             	2008
Harris Manchester College	1786             	1877
Hertford College         	1282             	1974
Jesus College            	1571             	1974
Keble College            	1870             	1979
Kellogg College          	1990             	1990
Lady Margaret Hall       	1878             	1979
Linacre College          	1962             	1962
Lincoln College          	1427             	1979
Magdalen College         	1458             	1979
Mansfield College        	1886             	1979
Merton College           	1264             	1979
New College              	1379             	1979
Nuffield College         	1937             	1937
Oriel College            	1326             	1985
Pembroke College         	1624             	1979
The Queen's College      	1341             	1979
Reuben College           	2019             	2019
St Anne's College        	1879             	1979
St Antony's College      	1950             	1962
St Catherine's College   	1868             	1974
St Cross College         	1965             	1965
St Edmund Hall           	1278             	1979
St Hilda's College       	1893             	2008
St Hugh's College        	1886             	1986
St John's College        	1555             	1979
St Peter's College       	1929             	1979
Somerville College       	1879             	1994
Trinity College          	1555             	1979
University College       	1249             	1979
Wadham College           	1610             	1974
Wolfson College          	1966             	1966
Worcester College        	1714             	1979
TSventon (talk) 12:51, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Coeducation

message: Unlike Cambridge, Oxford has constituent bodies which are not colleges. The question is how practical it is to incorporate them into a timeline.
*Academic halls: the timeline includes Hart Hall, Magdalen Hall, Gloucester Hall and St Edmund Hall as they became colleges. It might be worthwhile to colour their periods as halls differently. I listed the halls in 1600 as no new halls were recognised after that date and noted the dates of closure as a hall of each.
*Private halls: too obscure for the time line.
*Permanent private halls: it would be nice to add these but the only one with a coeducation date is St Benet's. St Peter's, Mansfield and Harris Manchester are former PPHs.
*Women's colleges: they went through several stages from not being part of the university at all to full colleges, which would be difficult to summarise and it would probably also be difficult to find all the detail.
*New foundations and societies: Keble was initially a new foundation, which mean it could be governed by a council, rather than its fellows. Kellogg, Reuben and St Cross are societies rather than full colleges. Again too much detail for the time line. TSventon (talk) 14:02, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: On Halls we have to be a bit careful about precursor Halls and other precursor institutions. Trasitionally St Ednund Hall takes the date of foundation of the precursor hall as the foundation of the institution as there is clear continuity. Similarly Exeter College is dated from Stapeldon Hall. But oddly Brasenose College is dated from 1509 although there is substantial institutional continuity with Brasenose Hall. Tradition, I suppose, combined with the fact that we don't actually know when Brasenose Hall was founded beyond "before 1333" from the foundation of Stamford University (England).  For Worcester College I don't think there is any link to Gloucester Hall, despite what the diagram suggests? Similarly for Trinity and Durham College, Oxford. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 16:02, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: There is some continuity where academic halls were succeeded by colleges after 1600, i.e. Broadgates Hall, Gloucester Hall, Hart Hall, Magdalen Hall and St Edmund Hall. This is demonstrated by the continuity of principal between hall and college and the detail in the Victoria County History digitised at British  History Online. This is different from the monastic colleges, where the parent monastery was dissolved, e.g. Durham College, Gloucester College and St Bernard's College (the site of St John's College). TSventon (talk) 06:46, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Colleges and halls

message: I think it is appropriate to classify All Souls and Green Templeton as graduate colleges. All Souls only admits fellows, a few of who are admitted after their first degree and study for a postgraduate degree. It had four undergraduate bible clerks until 1924. Green Templeton admits "graduate entry medics who have done an undergrad course elsewhere and clinical medics who are around halfway through their medicine degree", who are counted as undergraduate students as discussed earlier on this page. Also some medieval colleges were originally for graduates, e.g. University College supported "ten or twelve masters of arts studying divinity", but that is rightly ignored by the timeline. TSventon (talk) 14:25, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Graduate colleges

message: Please suggest several non-overlapping notable events to replace the Cambridge ones in the green bars: cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 22:43, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Notable events

message: Jonathan A Jones, is there a published official list of Oxford colleges in order of foundation or recognition? Apparently Cambridge students graduate in that order. TSventon (talk) 23:45, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: No. It is instead a matter of perennial debate, with Balliol, Merton and Univ all claiming to be the oldest, and the University keeping out of the whole mess. The page at  appears to favour Univ's claim, but stops short of actually stating that. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 13:18, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Jonathan A Jones, in the nineteenth century the University Calendar included a list of colleges by reputed date of foundation, but I expect recent editions don't. The 1876 calendar on Google books includes 21 colleges starting on page 210 with University College, said to have been founded in 872 by Alfred the Great, followed by academic halls from p374, one private hall and the unattached students. TSventon (talk) 19:29, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: On could also look at Almanacks, as the Cambridge 1807 one (which I happen to have nearby) lists dates of foundation. But anything which gives 872 for Univ can hardly be considered a reliable source. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 08:58, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I was looking for an order of recognition of the colleges, which obviously existed in the nineteenth century and doesn't now. Hopefully the various college articles have referenced start dates, but almanacks could help fill in gaps. I think in the case of Univ, "said to have been founded in 872" is intended to mean that it was not actually founded in 872. TSventon (talk) 13:04, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem with the early Oxford colleges is that founding was a process rather than an event, and by choosing different points in the process as being key you can get quite different results. It's very similar to the Third-oldest university in England debate or the First university in the United States debate. The money to found Univ was given in 1249, and property was purchased in 1253, but the college didn't actually start running until 1280. The decision to found Balliol was made in 1263 but it wasn't really founded until 1268, and didn't have statutes until 1282. Merton has statutes from 1264, and so considers statutes very important, but only gained property in Oxford in 1267. Take your pick really. However I would note that when Peterhouse Cambridge was pre-founded in 1280 as the brethren of the Hospital of St John (prior to the transfer to Cambridge in 1284) they were isntructed to live after the manner of the house of scholars of Walter de Merton (I forget the exact wording, which was of course in Latin anyway) which could be taken as implying that Merton is the model for subsequent colleges. As a former Fellow of Merton I am of course honour bound to take that line anyway. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 17:13, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: My thought with medieval colleges is to accept the dates used by colleges now, leaving detailed discussion of the development of Univ, Balliol and Merton to the appropriate articles. The paragraph in the Merton article currently says citation needed. That leaves the questions of what to do about Hertford and St Edmund Hall and other halls that later became colleges. Also Mansfield and Harris Manchester were not part of the university when they opened. TSventon (talk) 17:48, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

text: I have added establishment dates to Academic halls of the University of Oxford from the relevant articles. TSventon (talk) 19:43, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:   Sorry for the delay. I've only just been able to look into this. Re "what to do about Hertford and St Edmund Hall and other halls that later became colleges", as we're planning to have different coloured bars for PPH and New foundations and societies, how about a different colour between their actual foundation and when they became colleges of the university? If so, what would be an appopriate label for them? Cheers, cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 23:03, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Foundation of colleges

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message: As mentioned in a previous section from 2007, the societies are not strictly speaking colleges, but merely use the style as a courtesy. It would be nice to get this right but that would require some careful phrasing to avoid creating more confusion. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 10:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Which bit of prose in particular has this issue? The subtlety seems to be made clear in the lead, as far as I can see.  — Jumbo T (talk) 11:44, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, ignore me, I see how the recent edit added ambiguity. — Jumbo T (talk) 11:45, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, my point was that having opened this can of worms in the lede we might have to open it wider. Formally there are 39 "colleges" comprising 36 colleges and 3 societies, as well as 5 PPHs. Things were simpler in the old days when societies were just called societies, but these days we try very hard to pretend that societies are colleges even though they aren't. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 12:45, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I would suggest including the societies in what are called 'colleges' in the lead, but adding an explanatory footnote after  detailing the subtlety. I'll leave it to you though, I have to get back to revising for collections :) — Jumbo T (talk) 18:00, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Colleges and Societies (again)