Talk:Buk (drum)

message: The drum depicted in the photo is not a buk.  It's some other kind of drum.  I think a buk has laced heads, not tacked, and there aren't paintings on a buk's skin.  Badagnani 03:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo 

message: The editor who wished to add all Korean drums in this article is misunderstanding; in the English language buk refers to a specific variety of Korean barrel drum (the buk, used in pansori, pungmul, and a couple of other genres), while in the Korean language the term buk may also be used as a generic term to refer to all of the dozens of varieties of traditional Korean drums (including hourglass drums like the janggu, and many others). If all drums are to be described, the title Korean drums should be used; this article is about the specific instrument called buk, which is a barrel drum. See . Including all Korean drums under an article entitled "Buk" would be like adding every type of brass instrument and saxophone under Horn (instrument), just because in English, the term "horn" can also be used to refer to any brass instrument or saxophone (see Horn section). Badagnani (talk) 19:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No it is not. I read a "reliable source" which tells buk encompasses all types of buk in Korean traditional music. Use google translation. Besides, why have you not tried to taiko at Japanese drums? You're totally wrong.--Caspian blue (talk) 19:59, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you talking about? Diff.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: So provide citations like English dictionaries or encyclopedias to back your claim. That would be saving our time. I already provided my source. The one that you provides is only backing my claim.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Rather, you removed all added info to prevent from becoming a good encyclopedic article, I don't. Diff please. Your lies already are pointed out by your source. I'm very tired of your repeated false accusations at this time again.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Diffs, or do not falsely accuse me any more. That act is a personal attack. You initiate such uncontructive behaviors. Please look upon yourself. I do not have any time to make the article unencyclopedic in order to please you. Find sources. Thanks--~~ --—Preceding unsigned comment added by Caspian blue (talk • contribs) 
You removed the names of two sub-varieties of the buk in this edit. Would you kindly re-add them? Badagnani (talk) 21:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: No thanks. If I or you would do, that would be the fourth revert. I do not risk for such tiny matter. You can add it after 24 hours. Do it yourself. --Caspian blue (talk) 21:12, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: If you are so eager to include them, go ahead. I could not stop your move. That would be your fourth revert for sure. Your suggestion is nothing but like you make me violate 3RR. Stop nonsense.--Caspian blue (talk) 21:26, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misunderstanding 

message: Currently, Japanese drums redirects to taiko. Badagnani, can you tell me why the non-English term is titled for the article which holds every drums used for Japanese traditional music? If you successfully finish the possible WP:RM on the article, well, you have a ground for WP:ENGLISH on this article. Thanks--Caspian blue (talk) 20:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the situation (as explained earlier): buk in the English language refers specifically to a barrel drum used in pansori, pungmul, samulnori, and a few other genres of traditional Korean music. In the Korean language, however, it can also be a generic term referring to all drums, the way "horn" in English refers to the French horn, but may also be used to refer to trumpets, trombones, and saxophones. This is why discussing the actual barrel drum buk at this article is most appropriate. In Japan, the term "taiko," though drawn from the Sino-Japanese "big drum," has come to be used as a generic term referring to all traditional drums--but, unlike in Korean music, there is no specifically identifiable instrument by the name of taiko, by size and shape, the way there definitely is in Korean music for the buk. So the two terms, and their usage, are not comparable in this case. Badagnani (talk) 20:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: You're correct in stating that the buk, in English, refers to a Korean barrel-shaped drum, which is used in various forms (whose names you just removed several times from the article), in pansori, pungmul, samulnori, and a few other genres. However, you added to this article (which is about the barrel drum called buk) all Korean drums, including those that are not barrel-shaped: including hourglass-shaped drums, drums on handles, drums on poles, etc. While all those types of drum may be referred to in the Korean language as "buk" (much as saxophones, trumpets, and trombones may be called "horns" in the English language), it's much better to discuss the actual buk (barrel-shaped traditional Korean drum) in an article entitled Buk (drum). Badagnani (talk) 20:25, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: The NCKTPA is the primary institution in the world preserving and documenting traditional Korean music. The NCKTPA link explaining the various types of buk (which you removed several times earlier today) is provided just below. Badagnani (talk) 20:32, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm not certain if you have experience studying or playing Korean traditional music. In the English language, the term buk is understood to refer to a barrel-shaped drum used to accompany pansori, pungmul, samulnori, and a few other genres. Each variety of buk, each of which is used in its own genre (which you removed repeatedly earlier today) looks a little different, perhaps a little larger or smaller, or with a little thinner or thicker wooden body, a little thinner or thicker skins, or different lacing. However, more or less they all look quite similar. Other traditional Korean drums, of other shapes, have their own names, and, while they may all be referred to as buk in the Korean language (the way, in English, trumpets, trombones, and saxophones may be referred to as "horns"), it's much clearer if we follow the terminology used by traditional Korean musicians (and the NCKTPA). If a buk is being referred to and described, the term buk is used. If Korean drums are being referred to, the term "Korean drums" is used, to avoid confusion with the barrel drum called buk. If the janggo is being referred to, it's called janggo. The source confirms this. Please restore the article to its accurate version, describing the actual buk. Badagnani (talk) 20:45, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Would you kindly moderate your tone? You are correct that, in the Korean language, the broad definition of the term 북 (buk) is "drum"--the way, in English, the term "horn" can be broadly used to refer not only to the French horn but also to the trumpet, trombone, or saxophone. However, in an encyclopedia in the English language, an article on the buk would necessarily describe the specific Korean barrel drum called buk, which is used in pansori, samulnori, pungmul, and a few other genres. In English, buk is understood as this barrel drum, while other instruments such as the jwago, janggo, etc. have their own names. The NCKTPA, which is recognized as the foremost institution in the world preserving and documenting Korean music and instruments, has a website explaining the identity, construction, and nomenclature of the Korean instrument called buk. The source may be found here. Thus, it's important, now, that you restore the article to its formerly accurate state, describing the actual instrument called buk in English, and also restore the text you removed repeatedly, which provided the names of the various types of buk (the one used for pansori, the one used for pungmul, etc.). Thanks for this consideration.  Badagnani (talk) 21:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: If I may understand your implication, are you stating that the NCKTPA and its webpages (such as this source, which clearly defines and explains the Korean drum called buk and the genres in which it is used) are not to be trusted in matters related to traditional Korean music? Badagnani (talk) 21:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: All the available sources define the buk the same way the NCKTPA does. Sources include http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:18q7ZHP5ZRcJ:www.korea.net/pda/newsView.asp%3Fserial_no%3D20080205009%26part%3D115+"barrel+drum"+buk&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=36&gl=us and . Both sources, and all others, make it clear that the buk is a specific type of drum (namely, a barrel drum) and the janggo, alongside which the buk is used in samulnori, is yet another type of drum (namely, an hourglass drum). Badagnani (talk) 21:30, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is [[taiko]] not at [[Japanese drums]]? 

message: The NCKTPA, as all Koreans know, is the primary institution preserving Korean music. It gives the identity of the instrument called buk as a barrel drum. See this NCKTPA source. However, drums on handles, drums on sticks, hourglass drums, and many others, have been added to this article without prior discussion and against this source's evidence. As we have many editors for whom English is not a first language, it perhaps needs to be clarified that a barrel drum is a drum that is constructed in the shape of a barrel. Just because, in the Korean language, the term buk may be used as a generic term to refer to all drums (the way "horn" may be used in English to refer to trumpets, trombones, and saxophones) does not mean that buk refers to all Korean drums in English. It's much better to describe the actual Korean instrument called buk (a barrel drum, used in a few genres, and described in the NCKTPA link), and describe all Korean drums at an article entitled Korean drums, to avoid any possible confusion that may arise. Badagnani (talk) 20:28, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: When two barrels are combined to one, that is shaped like a "hour-glass" of janggu. My source does not specifically limit buk as "barrel-shaped drum". Besides, the NCKTPA provides only limited brief info. Unlike your allegation, buk is not only referred to as a specific drum used for pansori, pungmul nori, samul nori. Your sources only confirms my argument. If you want to move the article to Korean drums, you still need reliable sources to back your claim. Find one.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What did I tell you? You're wrong on every claim. If you wish to risk yourself to contain incorrect info and violate our 3RR policy, feel free so. I don't risk my wiki-life for the false info on behalf of you.--Caspian blue (talk) 20:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: You're the one trying me to violate 3RR per your insistence. If I revert one more time, you know I would violate 3RR. Why would I do such dumb thing for you? If you want to violate 3RR, go ahead. Besides, you keep making false accusations against me. Such behaviors are all personal attacks. Be careful. Unless you're provide reliable sources for your claims that buk is only used for pansori, pungmul nori, samul nori, this discussion is totally waste of my time. -Caspian blue (talk) 20:51, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I already presented my sources and gave you a change to read my source unlike you. Besides, your repeated false accusations, and requesting impossible ones are all insulting to me. Find sources, what a simple request by me? :)--Caspian blue (talk) 21:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source providing the identity of ''buk'' 

message: My suggestion is so simple. Badagnani, do not make me waste of my time. If I were you, I would try to find sources to back my every claim. You're currently resorting to appeal to authority and other unpleasant matters. I do not waste my time further here as long as you're repeating the same "insistence without any sources". The 국립국악원 only confirms my claim is right. I'm pretty sure that I'll be watching the article's change for the next day. Thanks.--Caspian blue (talk) 21:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you kindly moderate your tone? The NCKTPA source is very clear about the definition of the Korean drum called buk. Badagnani (talk) 21:25, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you stop making nonsense and personal attacks? Find sources from English speaking world as you allege.--Caspian blue (talk) 21:27, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Would you kindly moderate your tone, and be specific about why you believe the source from the NCKTPA (acknowledged as the foremost institution in the world preserving and documenting Korean traditional music and musical instruments) to be incorrect in its definition of the Korean musical instrument called buk? Badagnani (talk) 21:29, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Provide sources or put up with the cited info 

message: If I'm correct, the dictionary is regarded a very reliable reference on musicology, but I don't see any actual page number, and "quote". It is also available via online (subscription required though). Therefore, I'm so wondering why Badagnani does not provide such weblink or page number. He again reduced the article unilaterally, as completely removing all contents that deal with other types of buk. If he fails to provide the necessary information, and "quote" (yes, i want to see the exact quotation to make sure), well, I am afraid to think that we can face the same situation again as Seolleongtang which once had bogus citations inserted by him and false info in wikitionary, and unrelated bare google result. Please provide the info. If he fails to provide such required info, his allegation has no merit to keep at this status (also you removed my reliable citation).--04:52, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It would probably be a copyvio to quote the entire paragraph, but, yes, it's available online. The online version does not provide page numbers. I'll add the link. Regarding direct quotes, in this case, it just wasn't appropriate to quote directly from the source, but better to simply draw on the source, paraphrasing the basic description of the instrument. Badagnani (talk) 05:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Quoting is not a copyvio, so you need to quote the info with a quotation box. You quoted a lot of time, so well the ratinale seems odd. I would ask my friend to check on it but that would take 2 or 3 days. Frankly speaking, I could not trust you per your history, so please quote the necessary info.--Caspian blue (talk) 05:19, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

text: In this case, it just wasn't appropriate to quote directly from the source to describe this musical instrument. However, the text in the WP article accurately reflects the source (which confirms, in greater detail, the NCKTPA source described above several times). Badagnani (talk) 05:21, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In this case, it is very appropriate to quote directly from the source to describe this musical instrument. Read WP:QUOTE. Just you know some editor was blocked for his bogus citations for a DYK nom yesterday. If you keep denying to provide the necessary info, well, your credibility would be very thin at this time. No, NCKTPA is only referring brief information.--Caspian blue (talk) 05:25, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Both sources confirm that buk is a Korean term meaning "drum," but that in a musical context the term is used to refer to the specific barrel drum (in its various forms) currently described in the article. It is becoming increasingly disruptive and problematic that you now seem to be claiming that I am misrepresenting these two highly regarded sources (the New Grove Dictionary and the NCKTPA, which are quite accurate in their description of this instrument). Badagnani (talk) 05:31, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You first denounced my reliable citations written by experts and blanked it. Rather you've been behaving very disruptively and your claim that buk "only referring to the specific types of drum for pansori, and samul nori in English speaking world turns out to be false. The NCKTA only confirms my claim, not yours. I'm telling the truth and the current situation.--Caspian blue (talk) 05:37, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

text: You provided the Korean dictionary definition, which states that buk means "drum." It does, in the Korean language. However, in Korean music there is an enormous profusion of drums--perhaps more than in any other East Asian culture--each with its own name. Thus, to avoid confusion, as the NCKTPA source confirms, the term buk, as used by musicians and in English-language sources on Korean music, is usually used to refer to the specific barrel-shaped drum called buk, which is used in several genres (pansori, pungmul, samulnori, and a few others). Similarly, the English term "horn" may be used to refer to the French horn, but also to the trumpet, trombone, or saxophones, but we don't discuss all those instruments under "Horn," because they each have their own name. Contrary to your claim just above, the WP article as currently written reflects both the NCKTPA and Grove Dictionary sources quite accurately. Also contrary to your statement just above, English-language sources about Korean music do in fact use the term buk to refer to the barrel drum described in this article, and use other names, such as janggu, to refer to other Korean drums of different shapes. Badagnani (talk) 05:41, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no such description "as used by musicians and in English-language sources (you once said English language world) on Korean music, is usually used to refer to the specific barrel-shaped drum called buk, which is used in several genres (pansori, pungmul, samulnori, and a few others)." This is going to be original research again. In context, hmm? Where are evidences? Unless you publish a book or thesis on Korean buk, and then your claim would have some merit, but no. According to your rationale, the Grove only seems to mention about what buk means. You also fail to provide the necessary information for your claim. Why are you so reluctant to provide the quotation? You have been quoting directly from sources including non-free book sources. Until you provide the quotation, well, you can't repeat the same insistence. --Caspian blue (talk) 05:48, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

text: The New Grove should be in most good libraries, and the database is available online. Presenting the entire text would involve a copyvio. However, it's cited properly and the WP article accurately reflects its information. It confirms, in a bit more detail, what the already-cited NCKTPA source states about the buk. Badagnani (talk) 05:51, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In most good libraries? Well how would you know where I'm living? The NCKTA only confirms my claim, so you don't have any ground that the term is exclusively used for buk in pansori, samulnori in English-speaking world. You can't blindly revert the article to push your POV and OR.--Caspian blue (talk) 05:58, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Most good libraries have a set of the New Grove. Regarding the term buk, as the article states, in the Korean language it is used as a generic term meaning "drum," much as the term "horn" may refer to the French horn, but also other brass wind instruments such as the trumpet, trombone, or saxophone. However, because there are so many traditional drums used in traditional Korean music, as both the New Grove and NCKTPA sources state, the term buk is typically used to refer specifically to the shallow barrel-shaped drum used in pansori, samulnori, pungmul, and a few other genres; other traditional Korean drums have their own names, such as the janggu, and are referred to by these specific names, nearly all of Sino-Korean origin, unlike the buk. The two sources, which are the most reputable available, do bear this out. Badagnani (talk) 06:07, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do you still fail to provide the quote? You already accessed the source, so it is quite amusing to deny providing the necessary info for confirmation. As for the comparison of the western instrument with the Korean buk, if your claim is cited info, I will look into it. But you're still resorting OR. You blanked the chunk of information. You're the one to bear the change. Buk encompasses all drums in Korean traditional music and you don't want to accept the truth and citation. The NCKTPA is not from English speaking world as you allege according to sources. Please don't continue the disruptive behaviors.--Caspian blue (talk) 06:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Would you kindly moderate your tone? Badagnani (talk) 06:16, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Is the sentence your catch-praise along with "massive blanking by..." whenever you're against somebody's edit and opinion?--Caspian blue (talk) 06:20, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

text: http://tiny.britannica.co.kr/bol/topic.asp?article_id=b10b1272b My another citation (Korean Britannica) confirms my claim only.--Caspian blue (talk) 06:22, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No way, you're repeating the same absurd insistence. You massively blanked out the info related to "buk. If you're so sure about your stance, email to NCKTPA. You know encycloedias are written by experts, academics, and professors, and you still denounce the Korean encyclopedias. I'm pretty sure that your refusal to see the information are very unhelpful to develop the article. --Caspian blue (talk) 06:35, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Given your wrong info on tungso, I really don't see what you have in mind.--Caspian blue (talk) 06:39, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

text: In fact, many Korean general interest encyclopedias are quite good. However, in this case, the NCKTPA and New Grove sources (two of the foremost authorities in this case, on traditional Korean music and musical instruments) are quite clear, and properly and quite accurately cited. Large amounts of information about other Korean drums other than buk that were migrated a day or so ago from Traditional Korean musical instruments were removed because this article is about the Korean drum called buk, not about other drums such as janggu, etc. Badagnani (talk) 06:47, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians 

message: Caspian Blue asked at my talk page here to take a look at the discussion and see if I can help reach a good outcome.  I'm willing to give it a try, if that's acceptable to Badagnani as well.  Please let me know!  (Caspian Blue mentioned my ability to read Korean - in the interest of full disclosure, I can read Korean only at a basic level).  --Amble (talk) 04:45, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Outside view?

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