Template talk:History of Ukraine

message: How could a piece of land that is integrally part of a another country be occupied? Its like saying that just because my Kuban is part of Russia it is occupied by it... I hope nobody minds me purging this nonsense.--Kuban Cossack 12:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. "Foreign rule" usually means the colonial-type administration. Territories of Ukraine were fully integrated within the Russian Empire and the Governorates in the Ukrainian territory was not economically exploited in any more extent than other Governorates of Russia. --Irpen 17:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

text: From the perspective of the HofUA, USSR was also lack of self-determination. Still, this was not the "foreign rule" either. Ukraine was part of the larger country, this is true. That larger country opposed local separatism, this is also true. But the concept of the Ukrainian nationalism emerged only in mid- to end-19th century, together with other nationalist concepts in Europe. There was no colonial-type administration of Ukraine under the control of the Russian Empire and the term "Foreign rule" implicitly implies such. --Irpen 18:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

text: First of all, the usage of Ukraine for pre-19th century time is somewhat anachronistic. Ruthenia? Perhaps, not sure. Little Russia is usable as well. Secondly, Ukraine was indeed integrated fully both within the Russian Empire and the USSR. Its representatives took the highest posts in the countries, population was not discriminated (except when separatist threats where suspected) and its territory was not economically exploited, not deprived of investment, development, etc. Thus, Ukraine was simply part of the larger country rather than ruled by another country, the term more applicable to the colonial type rule. Russia was not a colonial power in the classical sense and the administration of Ukraine was similar to that of any other part of the country, unlike, say, administration of India compared to the administration of England itself. So, "foreign rule" is misleading for sure. --Irpen 19:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well why not just label the part of history from the so-called "Ukrainian" perspective as Russian Empire, and Austro-Hungary. And in the Russian Empire the Ukrainians Little Russians were not seen as foreigners, and neither did they view others as such.--Kuban Cossack 19:35, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Foreign occupation nonsense

message: Folks, the word "show" is nearly invisible in the template now; you may want to change its color. Beit Or 17:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Color 

message: Please stop slapping this template on every article listed by it. Some articles it may be useful to link to, but may not be focussing on the Ukraine specifically enough to warrant transclusion of the template on the article (e.g. Scythia). --dab (𒁳) 15:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Template placement

message: It's not correct to use the Greater Coat of Arms of Ukraine.svg because it's project only. In article Coat_of_arms_of_Ukraine you can read The Great Coat of Arms of Ukraine was never officially adopted, but it was published in various heraldic sources. So, it will be more correctly use Lesser_Coat_of_Arms_of_Ukraine.svg. --Movses (talk) 14:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unofficial Greater Coat of Arms of Ukraine.svg 

message: I'm sorry Mariah-Yulia, but as I mentioned above, I object to a navigation box which appears with all of its navigation links hidden, and requires a reader to operate six controls to get a historical overview.  The box should convey its information immediately and be operated with a single click.  Your reasoning “It's smaller” makes no sense to me, because we are not short on paper—is there a particular article where the template's vertical height was causing a layout problem?
At least four other editors have expressed approval for the simpler design on this page, and no one else has asked for hidden links, so I'm going to revert to the previous layout until it looks like consensus is against it. Regards. —Michael Z. 2008-07-27 16:07 z
:I ain't mad at cha :) Mariah-Yulia (talk) 00:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Layout with visible links 

message: “Modern” Ukraine is simply an incorrect name for the link to History of Ukraine#Independence.  In history, Modern history, the Modern era, or Modernity mean something absolutely different.  It doesn't matter to me what History of Belarus or some other template does, the word simply doesn't refer to this period in a history context.  Accepting this reflects poorly on us as the editors.
If we want to be specific, then we can call it:
* Ukraine today (an acceptable synonym)
* Present-day Ukraine (wordier synonym)
* Contemporary Ukraine (dry, but correct)
* Post-Modern Ukraine (if we want to be cutting-edge)
* Post-Soviet Ukraine (if we want to define it by what it's not)
* Ukraine (if we want to define it by nothing)
* Independent Ukraine (referring to the defining event)
* [what else?]
“Independent Ukraine” is my choice.  It precisely identifies the period to the reader with reference to its defining event, and also names the linked article section.  It happens to be the title of Yekelchyk's book section about the subject.  One editor objects to the title because Ukraine was independent before, but I don't see how that could cause any confusion here at all.
But please let's change it to any acceptable name. —Michael Z. 2008-07-29 21:51 z
:It is my choice too, what would that first independent Ukraine be then, the Cossack Hetmanate? Not sure a warior republic is the same as an independent state. But besides that English media uses the term "Independent Ukraine" to describe post-1991 Ukraine (CNN/BBC atleast). The term "Modern Ukraine" sounds more like an art-form to me... Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I second Michael's proposal. I don't see anything wrong with Independent Ukraine - it signifies certain historical events that happened after independence. Modern is too vague and can mean any period of modern history. As well, I think Imperial period should be changed as well. It is vague as well. Poland also had periods of Imperial rule, and yet they don't call it that. It is early modern period. Why do we call in Imperial and then redirect to Early Modern Europe? What's wrong with calling it what it is: Early Modern Period.--Hillock65 (talk) 23:03, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  “Modern” Ukraine 

message: [Topic introduced by Hillock65 above: “As well, I think Imperial period should be changed as well. It is vague as well. Poland also had periods of Imperial rule, and yet they don't call it that. It is early modern period. Why do we call in Imperial and then redirect to Early Modern Europe? What's wrong with calling it what it is: Early Modern Period.” —MZ]
I chose the name, because it describes the tenure of Ukrainian lands under both the Russian and Habsburg empires (While “Early Modern period” says nothing to me about Ukraine's history, and might include the Cossack era as well).  I think it was inspired by a book chapter, but I can't remember specifically.  The link doesn't have to be there; I chose it based on the period. —Michael Z. 2008-07-29 23:59 z
: I prefer Imperial period too per Mzajac's arguments and “Early Modern period” sounds like an art periode again... Mariah-Yulia (talk) 00:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Imperial period 

message: Seeing some disagreements - I would like to point out that as a citizen of Ukraine I would approve the inclusion of the following in the template:
- Holodomor
- Orange Revolution (and the surrounding events - although I oppose any one-sided illumination of this occurrence)
- Trypillya ? - I thought maybe have some sort of continuous line of culture evolution in the territory of Ukraine - from oldest known to modern. Cos in my mind a nation/country is mainly its culture.
Will take a closer look and try to constructively contribute - it's a promise :) Vvolodymyr (talk) 12:34, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  My 5 cents