Talk:List of major opera composers

message: * Talk:List of major opera composers/ProofreadingOfData - my list of what I (think) is on the lists currently used, according to my spreadsheet, compared to what was actually on the list. Possibly with errors - we were rather being rushed at the time to make the first step. Note: The Rough Guide to Opera was not added to the spreadsheet - it was added manually to save me some data entry. I'm up for some more work after a break from that three-day data entry, so I'll fix things up soon. 
The full bibliographic data for the lists used is here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vanished user (talk • contribs) 20:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proofreading of data

message: Glad to have you with us. So, the problem of women in opera. At themoment, of the ten lists, two contain Ethel Smythe, four contain Weir, and, it should be mention, two cut off earlier than is ideal, and contain neither. It would be NPOV to cut those lists if you have a better, more comprehensive one.
Just give the names on the lists, or from the overview of opera of whatever source here, providing the source (try and include enough information for the bibliography section). It would be useful to try for something academic, peer reviewed, or a reasonably notable book. 
If you're interested in the discussion that led to this, it begins in Archive2. However, as many of you will be new, I wanted to greet you at the top.
Thanks for helping us show women are important in opera - and prove it! Vanished user talk 20:35, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Welcome new contributors!

message: P.S. Have you heard Louise Bertin's opera? Is it good? (Vanished user's question above)
:I've never heard Louise Bertin's "Esmeralda" (as you might have guessed from the title, it's based on Victor Hugo's "The Hunchback of Notre Dame"; I think Hugo himself might even have written the libretto). I don't think it's ever been recorded. Since I like a lot of French opera of that period, it sounds intriguing.
:This is what Berlioz writes in his memoirs (and you have to remember Berlioz was an extremely exacting critic who didn't flatter people he didn't think deserved it): "Mademoiselle Louise Bertin...has been remarkably successful both in literature and music. She is one of the ablest women of our time. Her musical talent, to my mind, is rather rational than emotional; but it is a real talent notwithstanding, and, in spite of a certain want of decision, and of the occasionally childish form of her melodies, her opera of 'Esmeralda', to Victor Hugo's words, is of great interest, and certainly contains very fine passages...Several pieces...were warmly applauded at the general rehearsal. Nevertheless this work, by a woman who never wrote one word of criticism on any human being, good, bad, or indifferent, and whose sole crime consisted of belonging to a family that owned a powerful journal...this work, I say, so far superior to many that succeed daily, or are at any rate accepted, broke down utterly. It was received at the Opéra with unexampled hisses, groans and cries. At the second attempt, indeed, they were obliged to drop the curtain in the middle of an act, and stop the performance." --Folantin 07:31, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Louise Bertin

message: I moved the references to the bottom of the article, which is the way most wiki articles are structured and helps the article by moving up the the description of how the list was compiled.  I also made some copy edits to the Women's section and the description of the compilation methods that I think add to clarity and accuracy.  -- Ssilvers 13:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Newest edits

message: Would it be worth separating the list by century or similar chronological unit? The reason why I ask is because the current list is very long, and reads like a long list of names. It is a list, after all. I'm merely thinking in terms of readability, and I thought that some section headers would help in that aspect. Thanks. --Kyoko 15:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a good idea. Moreschi 15:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: However, do we go by year of birth, year of death, or year of first opera? Vanished user talk 15:39, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just like at List of important operas. Moreschi 15:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't know about this. List of important operas is easy to sort by century, because every opera has a specific date. As Vanished user says, with opera composers do we go by year of birth, year of death, or year of first opera? Or century of the majority of their operas? On the other hand, since this is just a convenience for making the list more user-friendly, maybe we shouldn't agonise too much over the method we choose. Do it by birthdate if that's easiest.--Folantin 16:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Per Folantin - do it by birthdate, this isn't a big deal. We're hardly trying to slice up into Baroque, Classical, Rococo, Modern, etc. Moreschi 16:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry to be coming late to this (and for being out of Wiki-action during the great NPOV brouhaha and other carryings-on), but I think that if it's going to be done by birthdate, then the headings should be entitled "Composers born nnnn-nnnn".  Even then, the arrangement seems rather preposterous, with (for example) Bellini appearing in a later section than Rossini.  I tried rearranging the composers by date of death, and by midpoint of their lives (info available on request - I am emailable), and either produces a better result than the current one.  I favour the midpoint option, but it'd be more difficult to explain to the readers.  I can't help feeling that slicing up as mentioned by Moreschi above would actually produce the best result, if we could agree on broad terms.  Then the composers could be arranged alphabetically within categories. --GuillaumeTell 18:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd rather not have any alphabetical arrangement at all. If we have an alternative chronological version, maybe by the century in which the bulk of the composer's major operas were written. Someone will have to figure out Scarlatti and Puccini (and possibly others) for this though. On the other hand, this shouldn't be a big deal. The only real point in the section breaks is to make the article more user-friendly. Birthdates were chosen for their "objectivity" rather than informativeness. In other words, we don't want another POV war to break out! --Folantin 18:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the current arrangement works O.K. Anything to avoid further POV problems - this page has had more than its fair share of that over the past months. Moreschi 19:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  is it worth separating the list by century? 

message: Thea Musgrave isn't on any of the lists? She's way better than either Ethel Smyth or Judith Weir.
Dybryd 23:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For what it's worth that surprised me too. Mak (talk) 23:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. Let me check - Musgrave may not have been a name I'd identify as a woman, without the first name.  Vanished user talk 00:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope. Not on any, unless she's on Folantin's last list... not there either. Did a quick scan of the ones listed at Opera corpus, and am sad to say that there don't appear to be any others. Sorry! Vanished user talk 00:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, she wasn't on any of the lists. That's the thing about this neutral list: there's something to disappoint everybody. Never mind, in ten years' time we'll do it all over again and see what happens. --Folantin 08:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Musgrave?

message: I like the work being done to add images. I was wondering whether it would make sense to add sound files where possible? Also, how do people feel about using all the images possible of the composers vs. cluttering up the page? There are rarely truly iconic images of composers, but we could easily pretty-up the page with tons of images of the older composers, and just make them a bit smaller. I don't tend to have a good eye for these things, just thought perhaps we should think about being representative vs. cluttered. Mak (talk) 21:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My plan was for one composer image per section - two at the most is probably enough. That's now done. How about one sound clip per section, if possible? The composer of the sound clip should, IMO, be different from the composer in the image, otherwise we might be viewed as over-promoting one composer. I'll have a hunt around and see what I can find. Cheers, Moreschi 21:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We've now got 3 sound clips, but I shouldn't think it'll be easy to find any more. We're probably going to have to upload some stuff under fair use, I'm afraid. Best, Moreschi 16:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How about a little Gershwin? For the not-so-modern composers, though: I am considered quite good at making midi files of reasonable quality. Though we'd have to change them to Oggs. Vanished user talk 17:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be a bit difficult to adequately claim fair use for this particular page. In fact, I would not support fair use images or sound clips for this page. Mak (talk) 17:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Looking at it, the first few music bits are perfectly fine. The Wagner is *not*. Janacek, Berg or Debussy are probably the best choice for the 1850-1899 section, having major operas out of copyright both in America and for life + 70 countries. We MIGHT be able to get America-free midis for the 1900- and Women sections. Vanished user talk 18:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: Opera, with its high cost of production and high status, has historically been very difficult for women to break into,See, e.g. Katherine Kolb's review of Women Writing Opera: Creativity and Controversy in the Age of the French Revolution. and no female composer made the cutoff for inclusion on the main list.  However, two women composers who were named by a some authorities as worthy of inclusion among the rest of the great opera composers are:
I don't like this. It's just a random statement, and implies POV selection. Vanished user talk 22:57, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I slashed the POV bits. We don't have to apologise for our sources' choices. Just making a note that only two women composers were on the lists consulted is enough. People can draw what conclusions they like from that.--Folantin 11:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Major women opera composers

message: I added a composer who I knew would probably be removed right away.  Sorry if this has all been hashed out already, but am I correct that it is not possible for any composers to get added to this list?  The criteria seem mighty restrictive to me... I am totally aware that everyone would just add their favorite composer to the list if there weren't criteria, but limiting it to a set of static resources, only one of which was published in the last 10 years, might not be the answer.  If the NY Times published an editorial tomorrow declaring Steven Paulus to be the most important living opera composer, wouldn't it be weird for him not to appear here?  --Dmz5 08:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, not necessarily. It depends on the way the list is compliled. Please see the The opera corpus which is an inclusive list. That is the best place to start . . . - Kleinzach 16:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

text: For example.  I read the thread above that deals with this subject, more or less.  There are other such lists (major X, most important Y) that have criteria such as "every entry must have at least one (or two!) footnotes supporting its inclusion here."  Any footnote, presumably, will do, but also presumably those footnotes are examined pretty intensely.  It occurs to me that that might be a process worth considering rather than saying "isn't it a shame we can't put Thea Musgrave on the list?  I guess we'll have to wait another 10 years until a new Rough Guide comes out."--Dmz5 08:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is actually a bit more complex than that. There are about over 400 opera composers listed in The opera corpus.  - Kleinzach 16:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

text: (Sorry to drag this out) otherwise why not rename the list "Major opera composers as defined by a certain set of textbooks as of 2006"?  Not to be snide about it, but that is very accurately what this list is.--Dmz5 08:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really. School text books are not being used. Our main resource at the Opera Project is the New Grove Dictionary of Opera. - Kleinzach 16:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criteria 

message: I'm a bit crap at the code thing, so couldn't find a way to do this myself:
With the notes now in a scrollable box, shouldn't they be in one column with normal sized text, rather than small? Lethe 13:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're probably right. I'm responsible for the box but I'm lousy at code too (I just copied it from another page). Ask Jay if he can help - he's our technical expert. --Folantin 13:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improving notes section 

message: I just wanted to say what a great list this is, and how much more useful it is than the vast majority of lists of artists and the like on wikipedia.  Using a variety of reference sources together to create a consensus list of important people in a given field is a great idea, and one that ought to be applied more broadly to other comparable topics.  Anyway, well done. john k (talk) 04:23, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kudos 

message: I just wanted to let you know that, in my opinion, Nabucco should be added to Verdi's masterpieces.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.25.5.144 (talk) 14:40, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verdi 

message: I was thinking of suggesting inclusion of Harrison Birtwistle in this list, but then I found the 20th century section of this article already extremely biased towards English/American composers (8 out of 10 !). This might be a consequence of the sources the list was compiled from, but I find it very hard to believe that only Shostakovich and Henze made significant non-English contributions to the operatic repertoire in the last century.--Francesco Malipiero (talk) 15:01, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's actually by birthdate so there are a lot more famous 20th-century composers of opera who happened to be born in the 19th century there - see the section 1850-99 (Janaček, Puccini, Debussy etc.). That section is in fact quite heavily Germanic (Strauss, Pfitzner, Schoenberg, Berg, Schreker, Hindemith) and only contains one "Anglophone" composer (Gerswhin). As I've said before, this list is kind of objective because it's got something for everybody to dislike about it. I think it under-represents the Baroque, for instance. But that and the Anglo bias in the last section are a reflection of the sources. List of important operas is wider ranging and more satisfying, I think, though still not perfect.--Folantin (talk) 18:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  20th Century 

message: The problem with this approach of only using a set of 10 books is that there is no way that major breakthrough composers can get on this list no matter how they are heralded. I am thinking of George Benjamin (composer), whose opera, Written on Skin, has been staged 8 times already in the 12 months since its premiere and has been claimed by some critics as the best opera written in the last 10 years http://www.fabermusic.com/Composers-Details.aspx?composerid=47.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.49.126.196 (talk) 12:00, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  21st Century 

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