Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses/Archive 15

message: :::: I made a change from the words "consider themselves to be Christian" to simply calling it a Christian denomination. Polemics and being pedantic often result in tortured prose. If you look at the wikipedia entry for what a denomination is, JWs fit that catagory very easily. (For instance, they are closer to mainstream Christianity than Gnostics) To get into a debate of "what makes a person a true christian" is beyond the scope of this article, simply because there is no universally accepted standard of what that is. (which is why denominations exist in the first place) Other sections can explore how some denominations do not believe JWs to be Christian, and how JWs do not believe other denominations to be Christian. But there is no need to split hairs in the introductary section. The average reader will "get" what it means to be a Christian denomination (as opposed to a Buddhist, Moslem, Hindu, etc. denomination), and can decide for themselves what constitutes a "true Christian" and whether JWs fit that definition or not. boche 06:51, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look at other entries for other religions, there are plenty of "controversial" religions that nonetheless are simply referred to as Christian denominations even if there are disputes within the the world of all who claim to be Christian about who is truly Christian and who is not. Shall we then change all protestant religions to similarly say "who consider themselves Christian" simply because they are the ones who separated from the "one true and catholic faith"? There is no position being taken by referring it as a Christian denomination, since being one does not imply it is "true Christianity" depending on the various definitions that exist (again, you can read the wikipedia article on Christian denominations and find several that are disputed by one group or another as being truly Christian). If the concern is that people will miss the fact that there is controversy surrounding the group, then I think those fears can be put to rest by a cursory glance at any of the JW articles. boche 05:42, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Shall we then change all protestant religions to similarly say "who consider themselves Christian" simply because they are the ones who separated from the "one true and catholic faith"? "  No, because the Church of Rome does not claim that Protestants are not Christian, as far as I know (can you find a statement to the contrary?).  A better question would be whether we should change all non-trinitarian religions to say "who consider themselves Christian"--while I think that would be too severe, I realize that there are a large number of people who have a stricter position than I do.  And while I personally think JW are Christian, I am not sure that Mormons are, for example.  After submitting this contribution to the discussion I will take a look at what is claimed in the Mormon article. --Bhuck 15:30, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, I just noticed this as well. However, this probably stems from the same problem: people who object to Mormons as being "true Christians", and therefore want to use special language to avoid using that as an adjective to describe the religion. For instance, if you look at the Millerites, who definitely did influence Russell, you'll see that they too have unitarian beliefs. Adventists have decended from this movement as well, and similar are referred to as a christian denomination (see Seventh-day_Adventist_Church). It is certainly a form of restorationism, and if an objective observer asked "restoration of what?" it would be in a Christian context, restoration of "true Christianity." I'm not up to date on current Catholic positions, but at least historically, there was a time where protestants felt that Catholics are not truly Christian and visa versa. The point is that an NPOV is to not take sides in that controversy, and simply classify objectively. When viewed from the various world religious classifications point of view, I find it hard to classify JWs as anything but a Christian denomination (remember, "Christian" in the sense of religious catagorization, not whether or not they are "true Christians" or not), as opposed to Islamic, Buddhist, etc. Or something entirely novel, which I would find it hard to imagine someone could credibly argue given the belief system and the means by which it was arrived at. It is only when one doesn't have a NPOV and frets about whether they are "true Christians" that leads to reacting negatively to  the classification. And again if we refer to the Christian_denominations section you'll see Arians, Gnostics, etc. encompassed in the definition of "Christian demonination." Also, if you read the nontrinitarian article, it is clearly within the context of the Christian religion. It makes no sense in any other religious context. NPOV-wise, the definition of Christian denomination is broad enough that classifying JWs as such is well within reason. This urge to limit the definition to "they consider themselves Christian" appears to descend from religious bias, and therefore is not NPOV. That is my opinion. boche 19:44, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

text:  Bhuck, I disagree. There isn't a consistency problem here. I didn't reference the Christianity article, I referenced the Christian denominations article. I hope that the difference is clear. There is no statement such as "Jehovah's Witnesses represent Christianity." (as an aside, the Christianity article mentions that some liberal Christians do not define the diety of Christ as an essential belief; and I'm sure there are people who say that they are not "Christian" either) Again, we shouldn't get into a debate on what is a "true Christian" and leave the religious wars out of the article.  boche 21:25, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, I would agree with this somewhat. I would like to engage more on the Christianity article, since I find it far to strict, but there are only so many hours in the day. :-) boche 02:40, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "a Christian demonination" does not equal "representing Christianity". You are taking some logical leap here. The Christian Demonination article covers JWs under non-Mainstream.  The point is not to make a claim on whether they are Christian or not, since that is point of view, but to simply describe denominations that stem from the Jesus movement in the first century without evaluating whether they "represent Christianity" or are "true Christians." Nor is the ariticle meant to describe Christianity as only that of orthodox Christianity. It even lists Gnostics, which are even more divergent than JWs from orthodox Christianity. I feel you are taking your view point that JWs are not Christian, and allowing it to infect the article. boche 06:25, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Many vs. most regarding JWs as non-Christian (Part 2)

message: My opinion is that this page is in need of moderation. Thoughts? boche 01:27, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely! It would be helpful if you could explain your reasons for this opinion. Then you (or collectively with the current contributors to this article) could take the necessary steps to move forward with that idea. --DannyMuse 21:39, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree! Otherwise even when we get to agreement and look away, someone will simply revert it back without discussion. 82.181.158.247 22:44, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Boche, you might want to refer to the Wikipedia:Resolving disputes article in this regard. --DannyMuse 19:02, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: DannyMuse, have you got any advice to me, or do you feel I should change my behaviour? 82.181.158.247 19:42, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: 82.181.158.247, my only advice to you is that you should become a registered user. It only takes a few minutes and provides many benefits. My comments above were specifically to Boche in response to his "opinion is that this page is in need of moderation". We're still waiting for his explanation of his your reasons for this opinion. --DannyMuse 20:12, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Thanks for the advice! This is my username now. Martin C. 21:03, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking back at the history, it seems that there continues to be an aversion to acknowledging the Christian aspects of JWs, and to me it appears to be due to doctrinal disputes that should ideally not influence a document that is meant to objectively describe things. Since I don't have the desire to get into a revert war, I'll just leave it up to the reader to understand that JWs clearly are rooted in Christianity although they are at odds with orthodox/historical Christianity (i.e. the majority). However, a moderator who I would assume would be interested in keeping consistency across the wikipedia articles, would be helpful in determining what is more consistent with other articles in wikipedia.boche 08:13, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moderation 

message: On 12 August 2005  Amicuspublilius added the following text to the  Jehovah's Witnesses and the question of blood section of the main article. 
:"However, in the event that two Witnesses have their child suffer traumatic injuries, they often do not object to the state acting in the child's interest, which in many cases is implicit consent to blood transfusions.  This is a bioethical issue discussed with physicians in training.  Acceptance of blood transfusions has led to documented cases of ostracism by the local Witness community."
This assertion is claiming situations "often" arise wherein JW parents compromise their beliefs regarding blood transfusions in the case of their (presumably minor) children. This is directly contrary to official JW beliefs and practices and to experiences published in JW publications. If situations like this are in fact true, evidence needs to be provided as proof of that. This is according to WP's policy of  citing sources. Since Amicuspublilius did not cite his sources I moved his addition here to the Talk page for discussion. Before it can be restored, in whole or in part, reliable evidence and/or proper citations of the claimed "documentation" must be provided. There are four asserted claims that need to be addressed: 
:# JW parents "often do not object to the state acting in the child's interest"
:# This is in fact "implicit consent to blood transfusions"
:# This is a bioethical issue discussed with physicians in training.
:# [Tacit] "Acceptance of blood transfusions [under the specific circumstances herein described] has led to documented cases of ostracism by the local Witness community"
It is very important that all editors properly  cite their sources using  reliable sources and providing all the information necessary to find the original source. This is particularly true when the edits are concerning controversial issues. Regarding  unattributed material, "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who has made the edit in question." Thanks! --DannyMuse 02:53, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My comment here is that I think we are getting too deep into details, when there is a practices article that is meant to do this. In this top level article, we should ideally strive to give an overview. This is what they believe. There is some controversy. For more details, read the fuller article. What I dislike is that in attempts to make a point or expand on some aspect, the proportion of time is skewed. The question is: what is the point? even assuming that a statement is factual, is it in the right place, and at the right level of detail. I would agree with DannyMuse also in that the statement "they often do not object" is something not provable, and is bound to be controversial, and should therefore be taken out. boche 08:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Jehovah's Witnesses and the question of blood

message: This section is very interesting. I think we are letting POV creep in here big time. Not all protestants for instance agree that premarital sex is a sin, or that the Bible is inerrant and should be interpreted literally. (some scientists who are protestant might take offense that they are being misrepresented). Also, don't understand this: "The view is incompatible with many Protestant denominations, but is not incompatible with Catholicism and the theological strain of Thomism." What view? And what does Catholicism have to do with the section, since it is talking about a comparison with protestantism? I've made an attempt to cleanup, but just as when it was at the begining of the article, it really looks like a mishmash of competing opinions, rather than something truly informative to the reader. boche 07:20, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beliefs and doctrines