Talk:The Boat Race

message: The logo in this article is out of date - new logo on http://theboatraces.org/ has word "RACES" instead of "RACE". If anyone out there is a graphics geek, could they fix this? It seems non-trivial as right-clicking on the logo on the website doesn't offer any "save image" options, so it's apparently not a separate image file. PamD 15:14, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  New logo 

message: References
http://www.ox.ac.uk/news-and-events/The-University-Year/The-Boat-Race
This link is broken unsure how to take it out or fix it  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kbos2hm (talk • contribs) 16:22, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link 34 broken  

message: Dear Wikipedians, Why is the image representing the course West to East, i.e. a negative of the actuality? The course goes up river westwards, so why show the start on the right when it should be on the left? Unfortunately, I do not possess the skills to alter it, but I am sure someone else can. In hope, --Po Kadzieli (talk) 11:52, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that is quite clearly because when you look at a map of the Thames you expect the West to be on the left, and East to be on the right (otherwise your map would be upside down). The image is quite clear where the start and end are located. Aloneinthewild (talk) 11:39, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Startling course image error!! 

message: The lead states that "Cambridge has led Oxford in cumulative wins since 1928" - this isn't supported by the table on List of The Boat Race results#Main_race which shows Oxford still leading by 40-39 after the 1928 race. It looks like Cambridge levelled the score in 1929 and finally went ahead with a win in 1930. I don't want to change this article myself as I'm not really sure of the history and whether maybe some races are discounted as part of the overall score but it looks like something isn't correct somewhere. --Bcp67 (talk) 07:33, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed, thanks, I've cross-checked with the list of results as you noted and I have adjusted the lead to say since 1930, not since 1928.  Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:14, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Great, thanks - I've now fixed the lead of that list itself to read 1930 as well.  There is a cite after that year there to a website of results but I can't see anything specific on that site referring to Cambridge taking the overall lead so I've left the cite alone. Thanks for picking that fix up, all the best. --Bcp67 (talk) 11:21, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cambridge lead in cumulative wins date 

message: === Requested move 3 April 2017 ===
:The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure)  TonyBallioni (talk) 23:25, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The Boat Race →  – "The Boat Race" apparently has changed to "The Boat Races" to include the women's race too. The logo has now changed too, where it hadn't in 2015 (above). SethWhales talk   20:53, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Following on the discussion, I'll add the relevant move requests to move :Category:The Boat Race and Template: The Boat Race to the plural since they both already cover both races. Whizz40 (talk) 19:03, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request move to "The Boat Races" 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure)  TonyBallioni (talk) 23:25, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The Boat Race →  – "The Boat Race" apparently has changed to "The Boat Races" to include the women's race too. The logo has now changed too, where it hadn't in 2015 (above). SethWhales talk   20:53, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Following on the discussion, I'll add the relevant move requests to move :Category:The Boat Race and Template: The Boat Race to the plural since they both already cover both races. Whizz40 (talk) 19:03, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 3 April 2017 

message: What happened in 1839, did Oxford sink or run aground? --95.222.186.244 (talk) 16:09, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: No.  The race is described at The Boat Race 1839. --David Biddulph (talk) 16:44, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Race of 1839 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on The Boat Race. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.theboatrace.org/article/newsandmedia/20102011news/xchangings
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140924062736/http://theboatrace.org/men/results to http://theboatrace.org/men/results
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on The Boat Race. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141007064520/http://theboatrace.org/men/statistics to http://theboatrace.org/men/statistics
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141007064520/http://theboatrace.org/men/statistics to http://theboatrace.org/men/statistics
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The section relating to the 1987  mutiny stated  "A fitness test between Clark and Macdonald (in which the American triumphed) resulted in a call for the Scotsman's removal". However Macdonald was not mentioned in the text before this, so the statement lacked context. For this reason I have slightly amended the statement. Dunarc (talk) 22:32, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I've edited this further for clarity. It's very literary to talk about "the American" and "the Scotsman", but given that Macdonald's nationality had never been mentioned before and Clark's not for several paragraphs, it's a lot less confusing to simply use their names. TSP (talk) 12:46, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks - I think this makes things much clearer and reads much better. Dunarc (talk) 22:43, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text of 1987 Oxford mutiny 

message: ===Contemporary primary sources===
The following list of newspapers publishing in 1877 is based on that in "British Historical Facts 1830–1900" ed. Chris Cook and Brendan Keith (St Martin's Press, 1975).
====Sunday newspapers of 25 March 1877====
* The Examiner
* Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper: "the Cantabs coming with a great and well-sustained effort 100 yards below the Ship, made a DEAD HEAT of it at the finishing point at Barker's rails. ... The Oxonians appealed from the decision of John Phelps, the judge, to Mr. Joseph Chitty, Q.C., the umpire. The learned gentleman was "opening" a case before the Master of the Rolls, when he learned that his presence was desired elsewhere. Straightway the learned advocate was transformed into a judge, and the all-important cause of Oxford and Cambridge was argued before him in the Rolls robing-room. The impartial lovers of aquatics will not be sorry to learn that the judgment of the court below was affirmed, and the appeal dismissed, of course without costs. 
:: Phelps asserts that the boats came in so close together that it was impossible for him to do otherwise than declare it a dead heat." (No mention of "dead heat to Oxford".) page 7, column 5.
* News of the World
* Observer
* Reynolds Newspaper: "A few strokes from the winning post both boats were exactly level and close alongside one another; but on nearing the flagpost the Oxford coxswain pulled his right string and threw the boats apart again, so that it was most difficult to really see which boat, if either, was ahead. John Phelps, the waterman, fired the gun as the signal of the conclusion of the race. His verdict was a dead heat, but among the crowd of boats which congregated together in the general anxiety to learn the result of so close a finish it was some time before he could be found, and it was at first thought that Oxford had won by a yard or so." (No mention of "dead heat to Oxford".) page 1, column 4.
* The Spectator
* Sunday Dispatch
* Sunday Illustrated News
* Sunday Referee (founded 1877; check it was by 24 March)
* Sunday Times: "A few strokes from the winning-post both boats were exactly level and close alongside one another; but on nearing the flag-post the Oxford coxswain pulled his right string and threw the boats apart again, so that it was most difficult to really see which boat, if either, was ahead. John Phelps fired the gun as the signal of the conclusion of the race. His verdict was a DEAD HEAT, but among the crowd of boats which congregated together in the general anxiety to learn the result of so close a finish it was some time before he could be found, and it was at first thought that Oxford had won by a yard or so." (No mention of "dead heat to Oxford".) page 5, column 4.
====Daily newspapers====
* Daily Chronicle
* Daily News: "Both crews made a grand spurt, and when the gun fired, it was impossible for any one behind to known [sic] the result. Loud cries of "Oxford" announced that Cambridge had lost, and overwhelming applause resounded on all sides. In a few moments the victory of the Dark Blues began to be doubted; questions were asked as to the judge's decision, and one or two on the Press steamer who knew Phelps were the only persons who actually knew what his verdict was. In the ordinary way the judge should have formally given his decision to the umpire, but for some unexplained reason he failed to do so. On all hands, however, the dead heat was acknowledged, after a while, but the decision being called in question, the umpire, Mr. Chitty, Q.C., subsequently had an interview with Phelps, and the matter was settled.
:: At the dinner in the evening Mr. Chitty made a statement which at once set the matter at rest. Phelps, it appears, was watching the boats from the Middlesex side of the river, and as they passed between him and a post fixed on the opposite shore, he was unable to perceive which of the two boats came past him first. This statement the umpire very rightly decided was equivalent to a dead heat"  (No mention of "dead heat to Oxford".) page 3, column 4.
* Daily Telegraph
* Manchester Guardian
* Morning Advertiser (?? specialist paper for the licensed trade)
* Morning Post: "Shoot by shoot the Cantabs crept up, and, amid the yells and deafening shouts of countless thousands, the judge declared it a "dead heat". Time, 24min. 4sec.
:: Some of the Oxford people were not satisfied with the decision of the judge, and it was questioned before the umpire, but Phelps was not moved by anybody, and adhered to his verdict that it was so close he could not say which came in first."  (No mention of "dead heat to Oxford".) page 6, column 6.
* The Standard
* The Times
====London evening newspapers====
* Evening Standard: "The race finishes about 100 yards above the Ship, at which point Oxford had still a lead of a few yards, and it was not until in the last few strokes that a final spurt on Shafto's part placed the two boats level.
:: The crowd on the banks and the crush on the river so obscured the winning post that it was only by the smoke from the gun fired by the judge as the crews reached the goal that its whereabouts could be at once discerned. As the crews eased it was impossible to tell from astern which was ahead, and it was some time before an answer could be given to the question "Who won?"
:: Old John Phelps, who has ever since the University Race has been rowed on the Thames officiated as judge, had again been appointed to this now important post; but after the race was over the umpire was unable to find him in order to ascertain what was really the result, and after half an hour had been consumed in steaming up and down in search of him the umpire's boat returned to town, those on board having to be content with the hearsay statement that the verdict of the result was a "dead heat." In the course of the afternoon Mr. Chitty had an opportunity of seeing Phelps at Lincoln's-inn, and any doubt there may have been as to the result was set at rest." ...
:: "In the course of the evening Mr. Chitty, Q.C., the umpire, stated that he had had an opportunity of questioning John Phelps on the result of the race, and was satisfied from his replied that both boats had actually passed the post simultaneously, and that the result was, as had previously been stated, a dead heat."
:: "The telegram announcing the success of Oxford, which reached there as early as nine o'clock and was posted publicly, was read with the greatest possible enthusiasm, which soon gave away to feelings of intense disappointment when an hour later a further telegram announcing a "dead heat" came to hand. The excitement was intensified by the arrival of private telegrams stating that Phelps, the judge, had at first declared Oxford as the winners, and that in consequence the umpire (Mr. Chitty) had suspended his decision until he had had an interview with the judge on the subject. Owing to Mr. Chitty's legal duties compelling him to return to town early the ultimate decision was considerably delayed, and in the meantime public feeling was raised to an unusual extent, the arrival during the day of several persons from the scene of action who declared Oxford had come in first having further increased the agitation. When all doubt had been removed by the confirmation of the unpalatable intelligence of the dead heat the excitement culminated, and a general opinion was evinced that the Oxonians had been the victims of unfairness." (No mention of "dead heat to Oxford".) page 2, columns 4-5.
* Globe
* Pall Mall Gazette
* The Echo
* The Star
====Provincial press====
====Other newspapers====
* Illustrated London News (No. 1968, Saturday, March 31, 1877). "in spite of the desperate exertions of the other seven men, the Cambridge boat rapidly gained; and, though the general opinion was that Oxford won by about a couple of yards, the decision given by John Phelps was a dead-heat, a result with few parallels in the history of rowing." (No mention of "dead heat to Oxford".)
===Secondary sources===
===Comments===
*I fixed all the formatting errors, no need for any barnstars! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:23, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 1877 Boat Race outcome 

message: *I fixed all the formatting errors, no need for any barnstars! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:23, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: Do we need "Cambridge has led Oxford in cumulative wins since 1930" and "Cambridge has led Oxford in cumulative wins since 1966". If both are accurate surely we only need the first. --Bduke (talk) 05:48, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: On reflection, I think the first is about the men's race and the second is about the women's race, but it could be clearer. --Bduke (talk) 06:59, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I have tried to clarify this in the article.--Bduke (talk) 09:47, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: A question

message: .... I see "harrods depositary". that's not how it's spelled in real life, & it changes the meaning quite substantially. is this out of ignorance or an archaic affectation on the part of our cartographer?
duncanrmi (talk) 14:40, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I've changed it, matching the font as best as I can (inexpertly) judge. Thincat (talk) 15:40, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  in the wee map....