Talk:Ken Arok

message: : He later told this to his teacher, who stated that it was a sign that Ken Dedes would bear a royal dynasty and any man that took her as wife would be a King.
'Teacher' could not be the correct term. Although Lohgawe teach Ken Arok about morality, Ken Arok was not his student. Lohgawe was the person who promote Ken Arok to be a soldier in Tumapel and responsible for his act. How about if we use the term 'patron'? Or any word who can describe the relationship between Qui-Gon, Obiwan, and Anakin. Kunderemp 18:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ken Arok, already infatuated by her beauty, became even more eager to take her, by any means -- including killing Tunggul Ametung, if necessary. By this time, Ken Arok had actually had a wife, a woman named Ken Umang from his village, and left her pregnant
Where those information came from?
Most of version I ever heard and read, Ken Umang was the second wife and Anusapati (Ken Dedes' son) was older than Tohjaya or any Ken Arok's son. And Ken Arok had no wife when he married Ken Dedes. 
And based on the legend, Ken Arok was a wanderer and lead a number of people to became one of the most troubling robbers to Kediri Kingdom. Would he had a wife and live in a village at the time? Kunderemp 18:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Ken Arok became furious on hearing this. Knowing that Ken Dedes was pregnant, and determined to murder Tunggul Ametung before his wife gave birth to a possible son and heir, Ken Arok took the kris from its maker and stabbed Mpu Gandring.
Again.. where the information came from?
One of the version I read stated, Ken Dedes and Tunggul Ametung was had just married. Nobody know whether Ken Dedes had pregnant or not and I never read any version which stated it. Most of the conclusion came from when Anusapati and other Ken Arok's son were born, Anusapati had different feature with the others.
After all,
would you kill someone powerful than you only to get his pregnant wife? If Ken Arok after Tunggul Ametung's position as an Akuwu (some kind of major or regent or governor), why didn't he kill them both?
If the reason why Ken Arok didn't kill Ken Dedes was caused by the prophecy. Assumed when Ken Arok was killed, Anusapati had grown to be a young lad, perhaps 15 years old (consider the age of Amakusa Shiro when he lead Christian peasant in Shimabara). Thus the year when Ken Arok took control of Tumapel would be the year when Anusapati was born, and (based on my assumption) would be year 1212. 
There was significant gap between the year when battle of Ganter took place and when Ken Arok took Tumapel as his first throne. It was about 10 years! If Ken Arok believed the prophecy so blindly, he would probably attack Kediri no longer than 5 years. After all, whoever married Ken Dedes would be the founder of royal dynasties, right? Of course you should ask why it was Ken Arok who finally succeed to be king instead of Tunggul Ametung himself.
I know it based on my assumption but I couldn't imagine a kid less than 10 years old could kill his stepfather and assumed his position. And no reference I ever read stated Anusapati was under influence of other nor Ken Arok know Ken Dedes was pregnant when he kill his husband. Kunderemp 18:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: To legitimate his ascension - since Ken Arok came from a peasant family, not a noble one- he claimed to be a son of Shiva.
The legend (Pararaton) told us that Ken Arok was not actually from a peasant family. He was a result of marriage between a female peasant and Brahma. Would the phrase of 'from a peasant family' make sense? I don't think so.
Since he was found in the Graves by a thief named Lembong, grown up to be thief until be found by Brahmin Mpu Lohgawe which the later promote him to be a soldier of Tumapel.
Thus,
his need to legitimate his ascension probably was not caused by his caste or which family he came from. It seemed there was no such thing as 'noble family' in the past since nobody protest when Ken Arok assumed Akuwu Tumapel's throne and there was no such record about any of 'noble family' in the past. However, due to his background as thief and political reason, he still need a legitimation. I'll remove 'peasant family- part due to its tendency as original research. Kunderemp 18:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Need more Citation

message: : Thus, the end of Ken Arok's life and the bloody chapter that ensued are roughly comparable to the end of Julius Caesar's rule in the history of the Roman Empire.
It is not..
First, there was no any Triumvirate or any political cooperation when Ken Arok assumed the throne except some support from Hindu priest who run from Kediri.
Secondly, Julius Caesar's was killed by The Senate. No Senate exist in ancient Java.
Thirdly, while the bloody history of Roman Empire was purely political, in ancient Java, it was more motivated by family revenge.
The sentence was too subjective and I don't think that one was fit on an encyclopedia entry Kunderemp 18:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ken Arok Could Not Be Compared to Julius Caesar