Talk:Russian Winter

message: Who ever said that weather is quoted among the major reasons for german faliure of Barbarossa? It never was quoted as such, the evidence of which is the quote of german officer present in this very article. winter is a well known myth about why Russia won the conflict. No serious historian would ever say that winter had any significant impact on the outcome of conflict, it is just laughable, since it affects both sides of conflict, and during Napoleon invasion it affected russians more, since russians were in the depth of their territory, where winter is more severe. Could we please stop this common stereotype, unconfirmed by ANYTHING other than some people's wish to present winter as the major factor and not russian military strength, national character and military training. 
Why does this article exist? The tactic it describes is covered by Scorched earth, and winter in Russia is in no way special compared to climatically similar parts of the world to deserve an article of its own.
:I agree. This article is very poor. Scorched earth is poor as well, but this article is very poor. It has nothing about the actual Russian winter - when does it begin, when does it end? Is it uniform all over Russia, or is Siberia harsher than Mongolia? What are the extremes of temperature, and has the temperature increased over recent years? The article has a sarcastic tone, no sources or cites, and ends with a chunk of opinionated original research; or rather it did, until I deleted that bit. I believe that there is potential for an article on the Russian winter - it has altered history on at least two occasions - but it needs to be in the form "In his book X, noted history Y argued that the Russian winter was a contributing factor in Z. The (description of battle, campaign, outcome etc)" and so forth. -Ashley Pomeroy 12:48, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Old talk

message: This article is poor. It should be merged. What with, is the question. Any thoughts? Guinnog 15:27, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fine about you moving this from your talk page, but I want you to reply as well, please. Guinnog 16:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: I have added some temperature data to the article. I'm native russian so sorry for possible grammar or other mistakes - if someone corrects them I would be grateful. I've been to different regions of Russia, so I can speak objectively about the climate. The text may be somewhat grammatically unliterate though..:)
:Thanks for your contribution. It really needs more work to become worth keeping, but this is a step in the right direction. Guinnog 18:07, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: the nosnense removed. `'mikka 02:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, when half of russian army dropped the riffles because of revolution. (well, not exactly so, but WWI is irrelevant in context of discussing of russian weather).  `'mikka 02:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The content of the article 

message: This article is very useful...entirely appropriate. I see that someone linked it to my Battle of Krasnoi article. Any Wikipedia articles dealing with foreign invasions of Russia, or wars in Russia, need to be tied-in with the issue of Russia's very unique geographical and climactic situation. No major wars between great world powers have been fought so far to the north except those involving Russia.
As for the article's weaknesses, they can be rectified over time. The criticisms of the article made by others above are a good started point for improving this one.
Kenmore 23:39, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: This a very useful article

message: Im a Russian, and Im tired of people saying that the only reason Russia has been able to defeat great invading military powers was because of the climate and geographical location. Finally someone has aknoledged Russia's military capability. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.132.21.158 (talk) 01:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finally 

message: I notice that the "russian winter" page is classed both as a Russian history page and as a Physics page - but it's all totally qualitative so far with no quantitative detail on it.  There are good maps available that show how *dreadfully* cold the winter is in Russia compared to western Europe.  One is on Google books at 
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=9W7ofyqW5moC&pg=PA291&lpg=PA291&dq=winter+%22mean+temperatures%22+europe+map&source=web&ots=YzLK12UKea&sig=aj5Uy4-AN82ZNBU4uU6TTuni9p4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result
{click the link and then scroll up one page).  A non-altitude corrected one is in every edition of Bartholomew's atlas on the Eurasia page.  Could a Wiki person please find one that is copyright-free, or get a licence, so that the science behind "General Winter" can be made clear on the page?  If one of the contributors to this page would like to email j.pyke@qut.edu.au I can send you a scanned copy of the Bartholomew map.
What the maps show is this - that whereas on every other continent the altitude-corrected mean winter temp isotherms run parallel to the Equator, in east Europe they run north-south - every 1000km or so that you advance into Russia the winter temp falls 10deg F (6.25deg C).  People in Europe who think they know what winter is simply have no idea!  To train for an invasion of Russia an army would have to train in winter near the top of the Alps - and pretend that their supply lines were 1500+kms long.  They don't do that because it would be too hard - and they still think that they could invade Russia. 
So, patriotic Russians, stop pretending that the role of your winter had nothing to do with the defeat of napoleon and Hitler.  Of course the fact that you fought like mad had a lot to do with it too, but the poor b*ggers from the West really had no idea how to equip an army for a place where the mean July temp is 10deg F (-12deg C).  Rejoice in the strength of your army *and* in your winter!   
"a place where the mean July temp is 10deg F (-12deg C). " What?! Please, think before you write. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Northern_Hemisphere_summer_heat_wave#Russia  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.124.206.39 (talk) 16:22, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please add some real data to this page 

message: An image used in this article, , has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Deletion requests May 2011 
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thread_title: File:General Winter.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: The current introduction for the article reads: "The Russian (or Soviet) Winter is a common excuse for military failures of invaders in Russia. Common nicknames are General Frost, General Winter and General Snow. Another was "General Mud"( see "rasputitsa")."
I am going to change it to: "The Russian (or Soviet) Winter is a common explanation for military failures of invaders in Russia. Common nicknames are General Frost, General Winter and General Snow. Another was "General Mud" (see "rasputitsa")."
To explain myself: 
# I do not see the issue of the responsibility of "General Winter" for military defeats being resolved by any means, especially with a lack of sources stating either way.
# The word "excuse" seems to be a weasel word. In addition, it does not appear NPOV either.
I have noticed that this change has been made before and later reverted. I do not want an edit war here, so if this continues I plan on requesting some arbitration in the matter (per 3RR). Please discuss any further edits on this topic here before making them. --Noha307 (talk) 03:28, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language in Introduction 

message: Maybe one should add some statistical data :
http://mosoborona.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/%D0%93%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%84%D0%B8%D0%BA-%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80.jpg
(during the german attack on moscow 41' - temp around -5 - -10 C, during russian counterattack up  to -25C)
That pretty much beats the myth about -40 C as a cause for germans to stop their attacks  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.223.47.198 (talk) 12:16, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Statistical temperature data

message: "Russian Winter" is the current title. Even when commonly used, is it an accurate title? Per WP:COMMONNAMES, inaccurate or ambiguous names are discouraged. If not accurate, what is your suggested title? --George Ho (talk) 05:17, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Am I'm trying to "change the meaning of someone else's comment"? Prove it. I'll make sure that votes on one of those titles aren't repeated here until the discussion is over. George Ho (talk) 22:51, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  You have no right to strike anyone else's vote or comment. That is explicitly against policy at WP:TALK. You flat-out wrote that you intend to remove others' votes and censor others' comments. Hiding someone else's comment is changing their meaning. —Lowellian (reply) 18:24, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

text:  This is just a mere RFC. It might lead to title change usually. In this case, it might not with multiple suggestions flying around. This discussion doesn't request changing to one specific title. Instead, it discusses the current title itself. --George Ho (talk) 00:04, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

text:  Actually, it's a precursor to the RM. If I see enough suggestions, then I'll pick one of them as a suitable proposed title for the next RM. And this is better than RM with "?" indicating you don't have a suggested title. George Ho (talk) 00:13, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC: Current title (28 July 2015) 

message: I have to criticize this article. The sources of the article consist of only 3 of which 1 is a dead link, its way to view and doesnt correlate with how much is written. And unlike with most other articles, its lacking a criticism section, criticizing the concept about the role of the Russian winter in the wars.--Crossswords (talk) 00:50, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Crossswords, I appreciate your concern about an inadequate number of references. However, I don't understand the need for a "criticism section". Are there those, who don't believe that the Russian winter had no role in the various wars? If so, perhaps you could provide some sources on that topic to provide a basis for what you mean? Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 11:07, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

text: I've fixed the problematic link: Chew, Allen F. Fighting the Russians in Winter: Three Case Studies Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 13:47, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

text: I have supplied a reference to the only unreferenced paragraph. User:HopsonRoad 14:00, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

text: I don't see a clear justification for why the neutrality of this article was questioned with a tag. The comment about a criticism section appears to be about the completeness of the article, not its neutrality.  User:HopsonRoad 14:40, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi HopsonRoad, with criticism i just mean the over-estimation by historians, about the weather impact in these wars.--Crossswords (talk) 13:09, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your reply, Crossswords. It appears that the main sources cited in the article agree that winter and its aftermath were only a contributing factor, regarding the outcome of the campaigns described. Cheers, User:HopsonRoad 19:00, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality

message: , I don't see the basis for your changing the title of this article from "Russian Winter". There were two germane discussions (above) about moving this page to a new name, including this one. They either resulted in a consensus not to or no consensus. On what basis did you make this move? I don't see a discussion supporting it or even an edit comment explaining it. It happens that I'm OK, but not thrilled with it, because it appears to have been changed without consensus. Now the article title looks like it is about a season in Russia, not about the military impact thereof. Sincerely, HopsonRoad (talk) 10:45, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , thanks for the ping. The move was requested by  at WP:RM/TR. Best, —Nnadigoodluck🇳🇬 10:58, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , thanks for your prompt reply. As you can see from the above discussions, it was not an "uncontroversial technical request". I suggest that you open yet another discussion here to determine whether it should be ratified by consensus or whether a clearer name should be identified. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 11:10, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , per your comment above, I'm going to revert the move. Best, —Nnadigoodluck🇳🇬 11:14, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Basis for title change?