Talk:Modern Standard Arabic

message: This is ambiguous to me.  To "give away" often means to belie, or to indicate something despite one's intentions not to do so.  I think the writer of this sentence meant for "give away" to mean "lose"?  Can someone confirm? framed0000 18:38, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have the same understanding as Framed0000. "lose" or "put aside" may be better ideas that "give away". I am not a native speaker of English though. Philippe Magnabosco (talk) 00:47, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

text: I am a native English speaker and "give away" is not correct. "Renounce" or "deny" might be a better word. Also, I question NPV in the statement. Dave  (djkernen)|Talk to me|Please help! 16:50, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

text: I am also a native English speaker.  I agree that "give away" is not correct here, but "renounce/deny" have equally strong emotional connotations.  Of the phrases mentioned to date, "put aside" or "set aside" is probably what is intended in the context of professional broadcast communication.  24.166.211.194 (talk) 06:34, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: "...'give away' their national or ethnic origins...though other traits may show the speaker's region"

message: There seems to be a small edit war going on here. This is not the way.  Disparaging scholars in or out of the Arab world is not the way, either.If there are in fact differences between Modern Standard Arabic and Classical Arabic, this article is the place to say what they are. Let readers decide for themselves whether the two are separate or not. Cbdorsett (talk) 03:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added a nearly exact quote from a reputable, scholarly source. (Taivo (talk) 07:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Classical Arabic should be merged here and differences described, IMHO. --Atitarev (talk) 02:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: True im supporting Atitaraev decision Protocetus1 (talk) 11:36, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

text:   I fully support this idea. Sambasoccer27 (talk) 00:13, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Classical Arabic vs MSA 

message: The article doesn't give much information about this subject. Could someone provide this information? It is related to education levels of a given country but perhaps to the attitude to standard Arabic versus a spoken variety. E.g., they know fuṣ-ḥā better in Saudi Arabia and Syria than Egypt and Lebanon.
I am also interested if the MSA is used in any entertainment - movies, songs, games. What is being done to promote the usage of standard Arabic outside the formal or religious contexts. --Atitarev (talk) 22:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Knowledge and usage of CA/MSA by country 

message: Hi Copana2002, I agree that a clean-up was required, links were just added and always to the top of the list. Can we leave one more link, please? : the Yamli editor. It has been in the news several times and it's a really important tool for users/learners of Arabic, including Wiki editors, although it has competitors.
 
* Yamli Editor - The Smart Arabic Keyboard (with automatic conversions and dictionary for better selections) --Anatoli (talk) 13:03, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, by all means add it if it meets criteria. I was just trying to avoid a situation similar to Arabic language. It seems when you include one transliteration keypad, the rest soon follow. Copana2002 (talk) 20:31, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for understanding. I've put a comment there asking to discuss before adding more. If someone will want to add another keyboard, we will have to agree. IMHO, only Google Arabic Transliteration is a comparable competitor for the moment. --Anatoli (talk) 21:24, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: In what way does literary arabic continue to evolve? Also the following in the article requires reference. Personally, I thought the Journalists were unhappy that arabic was not evolving. Faro0485 (talk) 14:16, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "literary Arabic continues to evolve" 

message: There is clearly quite a confusion about the Arabic language in the Wikipedia articles concerning the subject, as well as a misrepresentation where the sources cited are mostly western sources and very few. To get straight to the point, the Distinction made between MSA and Classical Arabic is not there in the Arab World. In the Arab world it is one language and is known as the "Fusha". This view of the Arabs, and it is their language may I remind you, is not as pronounced in these Wikipedia articles. However, as per the "Wikipedia's" request I am assuming good faith, and acting accordingly I wish to make some clarifications.
The "Arabic Language" can be "categorized" if you like into Dialect and Fusha. Dialect is not the same as Fusha, far from it, however it is "derived" from it, but hardly the same. However, because of this derivation Arabs from different countries usually, but not always, can understand each other and even learn to speak in each other's dialect in very short time. I personally can speak in three different dialects, but the switch from one dialect to another is no where near the same as the switch between say, Arabic and English. Why? Because the dialects have the same root, and that is the Fusha. The articles in Wikipedia are not too at odd with I just said, but there is clearly a lot of confusion especially in the discussion pages. And because the western voice is more pronounced on Wikipedia (after all English is your Language, not the Arab's) I am posting this little "discussion" and making it as clear and complete as possible in hope to reason with you.
The real problem with these Wikipedia articles is the distinction between alleged two types of Fusha. This distinction is not in the Arabic World. Ask any Arab, not some Arab who lived all his life in the west and graduated in some western Universtiy, no, but a true Arab. Someone who lived and studied in the Arabic World. There is simply no distinction. The confusion? The articles on Wikipedia claim that MSA is what is spoken by the media outlets and taught in school, but the Arab will tell you that is Fusha, and Classical Arabic is what ancient texts like the Quran are written in, but the Arab will also tell you that is Fusha. What the westerner seems unable to understand is that the Fusha is extremely vast and rich, however it is not a black and white matter of "you can speak it" or "you can speak it not", no. It is simply a matter of "you can speak it" and "you can speak it better." In plain English, the differences between one speaker/writer and another simply reflects his Skills, and like English his Style. The westerner is pointing at the media outlets and is saying that to look at how they speak, and then points at the work of great Arab scholars, or the Quran, and says that to look how they speak. Well I am telling you that this is a reflection of skill and style; the foundations are the same. The Arabic language is simply very vast. If you look at the Arabian history and study the rivalry that existed between poets throughout the ages, you will find that each was with different style, and skill. It is remarkable. About 1400 years ago, in the Ka'aba (the structure Muslims visit in Saudia Arabia during pilgrimage) people would hang the best poetic verses ever made. Until the time they were finally taken down during the Islamic era, only seven verses (if my memory serves me right) ever made it on its walls. People were incredible with the language, and more importantly they had the tool; the language.
What I am trying to point out to you is the complexity of the language, not rigidity. There is a difference. Its complexity is what gives rise to the countless number of different styles of writing and speaking; rigidity would do the opposite. What the Western scholars point out in the media is simply a reflection of that. No Arab can master the whole language, and no Arab ever did, with emphasis on "ever". If you are a linguist, I dare you to prove me wrong. Going back to the articles, this confusion is clearly presented with statements in the articles like "On the whole, Modern Standard Arabic is not homogeneous; there are authors who write in a style very close to the classical models and others who try to create new stylistic patterns." Which is what I am saying to you, but the way the articles are presented give you the impression that the are two different "Fusha". Some articles even state that there exists not a standard definition of "Modern Standard Arabic"; I hope you see the irony in that. And such statements are the result of the confusion I am trying to clear.
To put it another way. Is the English English-speaking people speak the same as the English they learn in school? No. Do not say yes, because currently I live in North America and I know exactly what I am talking about. The Spoken English language here is very weak, and different from the language taught at schools. For example, the people's use of the vocabulary is extremely limited, for one thing a few number of profane words replace half the "spoken dictionary". There are other examples, far more serious. For example "going to" becomes "gonna", or "Are you not going to eat?" becomes "Aren't you going to eat?" (pay attention to the position of the pronoun). Should we now say this is a new English. Would you like that? Calling it "Modern Standard English" which is complete rubbish? No, of course not. But not are you yourselves doing that, but you are taking it a step further with MSA by claiming in the articles that it is what is taught in school, not Classical Arabic. I am asking you Why? If non-English nations were to create something called "Modern Standard English" and claim publicly that this is what you are teaching at your school, with "gonna" and "ain't", and "bro", and upside grammar, and half the vocabulary replaced by profanity, how would you take this? Would these non-English speakers have not a point? They would. Not only can they point out a change of vocabulary set, but a change of the grammar. You might say what nonsense, why would they do that? Well that is what you are doing, and all will this lead to is unnecessary resentment and hate.
In summary, the Arabs are learning Fusha in schools (Classical Arabic) not what you want to call MSA. There is no such thing, Fusha is Fusha. Our scholars spend decades studying the Arabic, and then some non-Arab, or an Arab who studied outside for a few years wants to claim some sort of "Intellectual Supremacy"?!; Is it "My view matters and no one else's"? If anything, and with all due respect, it is the Arab's view that matters in this matter, not yours. After all it is his language. Now, does that mean your point of view matters not? No! But it is what the Arab says about his language that needs to made clear first, and then your point of view can be explained in a subsection. Not the other way around. Otherwise, you will create unnecessary hate without knowing. And if you can not comprehend this much, you are an arrogant fool.
Also, I like to add, if I may, that when you present MSA that you point out the differences between it and Classical Arabic. "New vocabulary" is not a difference. Otherwise we would have a new English language everyday. Using comma's in a list, instead of the Arabic 'and' is also not a difference. That is simply a style. Subject-initial sentences being more common in MSA than in Classical Arabic is also not a difference. This last statement is the most ridiculous of the three; I doubt it was even by a linguist. Anyways these are my personal views; "MSA" is your topic, the Educated Westerner. I understand that you have your own views regarding the subject.
If you read this far, thank you very much.--173.32.129.241 (talk) 21:14, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is written for native English speakers and is oriented accordingly.  It also references Arab views on the subject where these views might diverge.  Just as it would be inappropriate for native English speakers to rewrite the Arabic article on English to reflect their biases and beliefs, so it is inappropriate for native Arabic speakers to rewrite this one.  I also noticed your desire to force your views about images of Muhammad on our readers, and that is equally inappropriate.  Rklawton (talk) 15:26, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: For the interested reader: in the above response by Rklawton, "force your views about images of Muhammad on our readers" is referring to my contribution on the wiki talk page: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Muhammad/images", under the heading "Remove the Pictures" under the paragraph signed ("—Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.129.241 (talk) 15:12, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fusha and Classical Arabic/MSA 

message: I'm a Western linguist and I'm a bit surprised to see comments asserting that Classical Arabic, Koranic Arabic and Modern Standard Arabic are separate languages.  Undoubtedly they are not the same thing, but the variance hardly seems to go beyond normal range for what is considered dialects.  AFAIK, for example, I've never seen the claim that Vedic and Classical Sanskrit are separate languages, or that Plautine, Classical and Medieval Latin are separate languages, either.  In fact I'd very much like to see the sources that assert that Classical and MSA are separate languages.  I suspect that some Wikipedia editors are overreacting to the incessant Arab claims that there is no difference between Classical and MSA, and misinterpreting what the specialists actually say.  Benwing (talk) 04:28, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree and fully support combining "CA" and "MSA" into an article entitled "Standard Arabic." Sambasoccer27 (talk) 00:18, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern Standard Arabic vs. Classical Arabic 

message: Many of the articles on Arabic have mentioned a shift from VSO word order in Classical Arabic to SVO word order in Modern Standard Arabic and the modern Arabic dialects. However many prominent linguists specializing in Arabic strongly disagree with this assertion. Their explanation is that the apparent shift from VSO word order to SVO word order is actually the result of topic-comment structure, which is found in all varieties of Arabic, and the different types of discourses that are available and analyzed in historical texts versus modern texts and speech. For example, Dr. Kristen Brustad's "The Syntax of Spoken Arabic: A Comparative Study of Moroccan, Egyptian, Syrian and Kuwaiti Dialects", Georgetown Univ. Press, 2000, states "However, no frequency studies of modern Arabic have yet been undertaken to either support or challenge this assumption. Both VSO and SVO are common enough in all varieties of Arabic to be considered "basic;" a thorough study of word order typology in all varieties and registers of Arabic would be necessary to show if or how the basic typologies of Arabic have changed over time. Until such a study is conducted, the discussion must remain limited to indirect evidence.” Dr Brustad proceeds to present evidence that VSO remains a basic word order in the modern Arabic dialects and that fronting of nouns (subjects and objects) in all varieties of Arabic is best explained by a topic-comment structure of a topic-prominent sentence structure rather than the contrasting the subject-prominent sentence structure of the VSO word order.
Many others have also suggested similar analyses and this may even be becoming the more-accepted view among linguists specializing in Arabic. Although the topic-comment structure in all Arabic varieties is widely recognized, the articles on Arabic only mention VSO vs. SVO and increased usage subject initial sentences in MSA and dialects. It would be beneficial if someone could please add information about the topic-comment sentence structure in Arabic. (The article on Tuareg Languages mentions the option for the topic-comment sentence structure in those languages/dialects that may be a useful example that could be expanded.)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.88.72.211 (talk) 17:57, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Topic-Comment Structure in Arabic 

message: I have a question. I wonder if a question mark "?" is missing at the end of the entry for "How are you?" in the Common Phrases table. The "Romanization" column (last column) for the translated phrase "How are you?" says "kayfa ḥāluka / -ki". Shouldn't it say "kayfa ḥāluka? / -ki?"? That is, with a question mark at the end?Inygo (talk) 07:18, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. You can make such a small change yourself without consulting others. I would, however, recommend putting in only one question mark, at the very end, after the -ki, as was done in the case of masmuka. — Eru·tuon 19:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Common Phrases Table 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Modern Standard Arabic. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121030052148/http://www.msrintranet.capmas.gov.eg/pls/fdl/tst12e?action=1&lname=%201 to http://www.msrintranet.capmas.gov.eg/pls/fdl/tst12e?action=1&lname=%201
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:34, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:38, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: To  In Arabic speaking countries, since Literary Arabic is the only literary form of Arabic, the sacred texts used by religious minorities (Christians, Bahais...) are very often translated into Literary Arabic. The bible, for example, has special terms that are neither found in Classical Arabic (ie. Koran) nor in Literary Arabic, out of specialized contexts.
Literary Arabic depends on the style used, to use the simplest grammar with more common lexicon. Should they be considered two languages or two styles of the same language? --Mahmudmasri (talk) 17:49, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I initially put the  tag in because "aside from" was used in a way that isn't standard in English. If it was taken literally, it would mean that Classical Arabic Bibles were more common than MSA Bibles. From what you're saying, it sounds like the Bible is mostly translated into MSA, but it's questionable whether the end result is the same as MSA. Clarinetguy097 (talk) 19:42, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bible 

message: I don't know why does user:Sambasoccer27 insist on adding the word "modern" in the autonym of the language. Who calls it from Arabic speakers in Arabic speaking countries anything other than عربية فصحى, عربى فصيح, اللغة العربية الفصحى, العربى الفصيح?‎ "الحديثة" is not even in the given citations and it is presented as an autonym, but this is wrong. The only reference to that "الحديثة" is the Arabic Wikipedia, but it literally says that in English, it is called so. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 14:32, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello Mahmudmasri, the issue is that in Arabic, the term اللغة العربية الفصحى does not specifically mean "Modern Standard Arabic," but rather "Standard Arabic." Western linguists might distinguish between "Modern Standard Arabic" and "Classical Arabic," but this division does not exist in Arabic, as attested to on page 125 here. We can not restrict "اللغة العربية الفصحى" to mean "Modern Standard Arabic" when in Arabic it also encompasses what Western linguists have called "Classical Arabic." In summation, there is no real equivalency, and it should be clear that اللغة العربية الفصحى is not restricted to "Modern Standard Arabic." Additionally, it should be made clear that a division between "Modern Standard Arabic" and "Classical Arabic" is a Western idea. Sambasoccer27 (talk) 19:16, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Everything you wrote here is clear, but the dispute remains for the name in the intro which implies that this is what Arabic speakers use. I believe we could just remove the Arabic name from the first sentence, since it is already mentioned in the following sentences, and I agree that the terminologies in Literary Arabic are different from the English ones. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 20:01, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong autonym 

message: Hello , I am starting this discussion so that we may build some consensus. You have twice now removed important illustrative contextual information about how the language is used. To just state that Standard Arabic not a native language without any further clarification or context is misleading. Additionally, English is also a pluricentric auxiliary language, yet this information is not present in the lede of that article. إيان (talk) 00:13, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  February 2020 

message: Hello,
A reference is made to my paper on transliteration practices in MSA: 14:  محمد, د. علي. "ورقة عمل حول التعريب اللفظي في اللغة العربية". al-arabic.com. Archived from the original on 2016-08-23. Retrieved 2016-08-22.
We changed our domain a year ago and the same paper is now on the new domain on this link: https://hoc.ae/index.php/ar/blog-ar/transliteration-in-arabic
please update the reference to the new domain for better accessibility
:The citation already has an archived link that works, so updating the domain won't be necessary. Clarinetguy097 (talk) 13:38, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please update reference link and domain 

message: I see there are some past bits of discussion that touch upon this topic (all of which is a bit complex for a newcomer to Arabic), but here's my question: Is MSA BOTH a spoken AND a literary language? If so, can we change the lead sentence to reflect that? Right now, it reads to a nonexpert that this is ONLY a written language, when in fact it is later explained that speakers can codeswitch to MSA for better intelligibility with Arabic speakers from other regions. (And if someone can fill me in on even more of the details, that would be even more useful! My impression is that the Arabic language mostly exists diglossically: educated speakers can use both 1) a regional native spoken form as well as 2) a more high-status written form that can also be approximated with speech as needed. Is this more or less the right impression?) Wolfdog (talk) 20:04, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Written versus spoken 

message: Hello,
It's been stale for a bit, so copying the discussion on MSA over here.  Technically speaking, you can request a move via following the instructions, but as a warning, I don't think the move would stand a chance of succeeding.  MSA / "Modern Standard Arabic" is the name used in English for this, and whether the term "standard" is 100% accurate isn't really that relevant.
* 
:: MSA is the standard and common name; Modern Arabic contains various variations. User:CanonNi (talk|contribs) 12:47, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: No, but it is not standard. Normative means that it takes a standard for deducing rules, but this is not true. Classical Arabic is the one that takes a standard for rules. أرمز (talk) 13:16, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want something from me, please tag me. I am on the Arabic Wikipedia + I am not fluent in English. Please search carefully to verify my words. أرمز (talk) 20:20, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  This move is potentially controversial, so it would require a requested-move discussion, which you can begin by clicking "discuss" on your request. You can remove this request after opening a discussion (or if you do not want to continue). SilverLocust 💬 23:21, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Where do I place the request? أرمز (talk) 04:53, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: You can click "discuss" above, which will start a discussion on Talk:Modern Standard Arabic User:CanonNi (talk|contribs) 05:05, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  MSA move