Talk:Thesprotia

message: I have removed the statement that Thesprotia prefecture was known as Chameria.  It is my understanding that Chameria extends far beyond the borders of the prefecture.  Moreover, Thesprotia is strictly a modern prefecture, while Chameria is a folk-ethnic region with vaguely defined boundaries.  The two are not coterminous and never have been. Nor have they ever been synonymous.  Athenean (talk) 06:18, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Regions have names whatsoever, and in this case the name of the region was Chameria until 1936, when it was renamed.Balkanian`s word (talk) 08:56, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It was never the name of an administrative region. What do you mean it was 'renamed'? Kretsi doesn't speak about the prefecture. Also keep in mind that Konispol, part of Tsamouria today, is still part of Albania. The speacific part could be relevant with Chameria, but with Thesprotia prefecture this is completely irrelevant and misleading.Alexikoua (talk) 09:16, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Making the equation Thesprotia=Chameria is complete nonsense of course, as is "Regions have name whatsoever" (?).  This article is not about a "region", it is about a well defined administrative subdivision.  The only thing that needs to be mentioned is that it was created out of the Ioannina prefecture in 1936.  It wasn't "renamed", it was created.  Athenean (talk) 16:36, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Since no one responded, I have reinstated my edit.  It is completely erroneous to equate the modern Prefecture of Thesprotia, the article's subject, with a far larger, and vaguely defined folk-historical region.  It's like equating the Prefecture of Ioannina with Epirus (region) or the Prefecture of Thessaloniki with Macedonia.  The prefecture is merely an administrative subdivision created in 1937 to shrink the oversize prefecture of Ioannina.  That it lies in what used to be Chameria does not mean it is Chameria.  Athenean (talk) 00:52, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chameria 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Chania Prefecture which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RM bot 15:30, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Move discussion in progress

message: Thesprotians are not an "ancient greek tribe" but "ancient illyrian tribe. The name itself means nothing in greek language.Ness Unno (talk) 19:21, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved from article 

message: Firstly, you have no consensus for presenting the WWII from a preferred viewpoint like how you did today and your edits have been reverted . These additions are violating Wikipedia's WP:NPOV guidelines which states that 
Secondly, the main article Expulsion of Cham Albanians which is dedicated to that topic (the expulsion), already covers all the viewpoints about the circumstances of the expulsion and the readers may simply access that article for more details of what exactly happened in these WWII events. Using a geographic article such as the present one, even though there is already a historic article about that subject, is unhelpful, since the present article's focus is about the geographic region of Thesprotia and not about the World War II and its politics. Historic politics of the WWII era are left for these historical WWII articles to tackle.
Last, using the present geographic article, not to cover the historic WWII events in a balanced and summarized way, but to add more one-sided details to promote your preferred POV about what these WWII events, is extremely disruptive and contradicts the balanced conclusions the readers may draw by accessing the main article about these events, which means turning Thesprotia into a WP:POVFORK to Expulsion of Cham Albanians. This cannot be tolerated.
I understand that to your eyes, your edits seem neutral but that doesn't make them neutral. If you want to make additions about sensitive WWII events, then, you ought, as an editor, to consider other editor's concerns instead of brute-forcing your preferred POV to Wikipedia.Please try to use the talk page instead of edit-warring. This is disruptive and unhelpful. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 17:04, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: You know what you should do rather than write walls of texts ranting? You should follow your own advice. I opposed including reasoning for the Cham expulsion in the first place because it's just not relevant to Thesprotia in the way it was included, and also, I stated that if we truly want to follow WP:NPOV which you people have blasted all over this TP, then all reasons for the Cham expulsion need to be included and not just the POV that blames it entirely (and wrongfully so according to multiple sources) on Cham-Axis collaboration. That's NPOV, where all viewpoints are inserted. If you feel it's not relevant to the article then neither should the line Khirurg inserted be used because it is not neutral. You can request page protection as much as you like, but when you refuse to follow NPOV because it doesn't convey your preferred narrative, that's wrong. The Cham expulsion is much deeper than Cham-Axis collaboration, and I am sure none of us here are that naïve to truly believe it's the only reason for their expulsion. Take a look at the history of the Chams and how they were treated since their inclusion into Greece, and tell me their expulsion was not related to these same policies. Botushali (talk) 23:26, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The population of Thesprotia was 65k (Tsoutsoumbis), while the max. estimation of Cham Albanians is 25k (Manta). I wonder how can this be considered majority. Alexikoua (talk) 23:35, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: That's Muslim Albanians alone. During the Italian occupation, estimations of the population of Chameria (which is mainly today's Thesprotia) were around 54,000 Albanians and 20,000 Greeks (Ktistakis). What's your point? Botushali (talk) 00:03, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Because the new additions by Botushali to Thesprotia are also new additions (again by him) to the main article Expulsion of Cham Albanians (), I was wondering why I wouldn't remember that information being present on the main article and especially an information as ambiguous as that. I made to it some much-needed balancing adjustments for clarity: . This information may now be re-added to Thesprotia, provided that Ktrimi's changes for clarity and mine are included as well. Is everybody OK about it? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 14:27, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi @SilentResident, thing is that anti-Cham policy occurred even prior to the Metaxas regime. Please see this here for what I mean, so blaming it all on the Metaxas regime would be inaccurate in a sense that they were not the ones who initiated the anti-Cham policies in the first place, you get what I am trying to say? Botushali (talk) 00:35, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: This falls clearly into wp:UNUE, the article deals with the administrative unit and this issues are not dealt in terms of administration. Nevertheless I won't object to offers lists of the victims of Axis atrocities if an expansion is needed.Alexikoua (talk) 01:18, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Botushali, that is why the sources say , not . The sources point to the well known fact that the WWII collaborations were also the outcome of policies embedded in the prevailing interwar nationalism, whose leading figure was Metaxas. Everybody knows the role Metaxas played to the unprecedented suffering of the minority to the point of it collaborating with invading forces when the next war broke out.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 14:13, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Why should this dive into such a specialist topic? If yes expulsion should have the same amount of info as collaboration. There are two sides of the same coin. Thesprotia suffered greatly from Axis atrocities and this should be underlined. The main settlements of the region were raised to the ground. Alexikoua (talk) 03:20, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ktrimi & Botusali are desperately in favor of this part Cham Albanians formed the majority in the region up until World War II, supposed to be in "Gizem Bilgin, Aytaç (2020). Conflict areas in the Balkans. Lanham: Lexington Books. p. 112. ". However, what I could only found is this: "Chameria Albanians on the other hand were the majority in Southern Epirus until World War II" (and in p. 111 it's even more precise: "Muslim Chameria Albanians on the other hand where the majority in Southern Epirus until World War II"). As for the supposed majority in southern Epirus this falls directly into wp:fringe. But fact is that this definitely does not belong to Thesprotia.Alexikoua (talk) 04:43, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  If the source uses Southern Epirus, then it ought to go to the relevant article, not here. Also keep in mind that majority in Southern Epirus is a rather WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim which will require strong and substantial sources, not just this. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 11:01, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The claim that Chams were a majority in "southern Epirus" (presumably the part of Epirus in Greece) as a whole is clearly incorrect and WP:FRINGE. In Cham_Albanians#Historical_demographics there is a table that lists every single census pre-WW2, and even the maximalist Italian census of 1941 only gives a figure of 54,000, nowhere near a majority in southern Epirus. Khirurg (talk) 15:02, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Chams made c. 5% in pre-WWII Epirus and c.28% in Thepsrotia. Kalivretakis was removed as "outdated" while the work that's supposed to mention something about "majorities in Thesprotia" was restored back. Friendly advice to everyone: read the source before restoring a non-existent claim from that one.Alexikoua (talk) 03:47, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

text: Chams being 28% in Thesprotia at the time is very dubious. Maybe the author counts Orthodox Chams as Greeks. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:05, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Both Gizem Bilgin (who says that Cham Albanians were the "majority" in southern Epirus) and Manta (who says that Greeks were a "vast majority" in Thesprotia, apparently counting Orthodox Chams as Greeks) are not useful for this article. Gizem Bilgin is wrong especially in using the term "southern Epirus" instead of Chameria/Thesprotia, while Manta is misleading POV not suitable for this article. Both should be removed from this article. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:18, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, both seem to not be valuable in discussing the academic regard. Both can be removed. Botushali (talk) 00:20, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: In 20th century "Chams" refers to Muslims exclusively (cited be Hart) and at very rarely instances "Chams" is related to Christians (cited by Kretsi). As such you are deep into wp:POV&OR again not to mention severe wp:SYNTH confusing Thesprotia to 'southern Epirus'. Also Thesprotia is a small part of Greek Epirus (18%), as such the claim about "Chams being a majority in Southern Epirus" falls directly into wp:FRINGE. On the other hand Manta with multiple publications is a top graded scholar and her paper is published in a well known journal. By the way who is Gizem Bilgin? He is definitely a non-specialist on Epirus. If we believe Botushali that this author confused Thesprotia to Epirus then definitely this error reveals the problematic use of the specific work.  Alexikoua (talk) 02:45, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: One POV is that Orthodox Chams were Greeks at the time, the other POV is that they still were ....Chams. We will not have only one POV in this article. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:39, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, can you give a full quote of Manta? I can't find in page number 7 where the author says Greeks were a "vast majority" in Thesprotia. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:13, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The sentence is related to Thesprotia because it refers to a possible annexation of Thesprotia prefecture to Albania.Alexikoua (talk) 20:18, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: In the article you attributed the "vast majority" to Thesprotia, not to Epirus. You wrote sth other than what the source says, and added a misleading half quote of the source in the reference template. Do not do such a thing again. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:28, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: POV changes about WWII

message: The Camlik s. included also Konispol so it would be non-historical to say that this sanjack was annexed by Greece. By the way the article is about Thesprotia not Camlik.Alexikoua (talk) 15:27, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Camlik Sanjack