Talk:Tsundere

message: Re: Junachi ... I don't really get this archive feature, but I have two issues with this:
#Please show the main discussions that was here before you archive it, as right now it's completely empty.
#The discussions about individual examples (such as the very lengthy Haruhi) are completely irrelevant as the content is inappropriate for the article AND the list section was removed. Only the discussions that really pertain to the article itself should be archived, if you want to do that. --Mizst (talk) 11:49, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's completely empty because I archived it. The archive can be viewed in the archive box on the right; just click on the 1. On Wikipedia, we archive all the discussions on a talk page that have been resolved or are old. We do not indiscriminately delete or remove any discussions; we archive them. The fact that certain discussions may be deemed irrelevant now is inconsequential as the record of that discussion may be useful to future editors. Please see WP:ARCHIVE for more.--十八 23:58, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I'm under the impression that I was acting under the principle in WP:REFACTOR to remove "Superfluous" content, which is "entirely and unmistakably irrelevant." Furthermore, new editors who come in and see these list discussions (while missing the comparatively small list removal discussion) may wonder why there are excessive amounts of example discussion but nothing in the article. But well, archiving as you did isn't bad anyhow. As for the empty discussion page, I realize it's simply my own preference that it shouldn't look so empty but now it's not empty anyway. --Mizst (talk) 02:16, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but then there's a whole section on this at WP:RTP#Refactoring vs. archival which states Especially since 2006, the Wikipedia community has more and more preferred wholesale archival of talk page discussions instead of summarizing, as archival preserves a fuller record of discussion, does not lead to accidental (or disruptive) misrepresentation of other editors' opinions, and does not inadvertently remove material that may turn out to be needed later. This is exactly what I said above, how the past discussions may be useful for the future. I've always been against the unnecessary removal of talk page content when it could easily be archived.--十八 04:29, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok I understand. --Mizst (talk) 06:07, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

text: @Juhachi 140.213.171.22 (talk) 15:15, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive

message: Adding more examples to this article could help clarify the definition and show how the term applies in popular culture.--darkfeline 04 Aug 2009 17:14:14  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.187.238.83 (talk) 00:14, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: While that may be generally true, the main problem with that is the notability of the examples and how well they can be sourced with reliable sources.--十八 04:21, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

text: Germany is sourced in the cite given, and England is not. As I said last August, if it's not sourced by a reliable source, then it shouldn't be added.--十八 01:43, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

text: There area already 11 examples of tsundere characters, there is no need for any more. In fact, the current list should be trimmed down substantially. —Farix (t | c) 20:31, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: More Examples

message: Since both these terms end in -dere would it be appropriate for each to link to the other in a 'see also' for related articles? This isn't necessary for finding it since both are in the 'female stock' category but these seem more related than with the other stocks. Also, since this stereotype is actually in the opposite order of Tsundere (as in, Tsundere starts off aggressive and turns loving, whereas this starts off loving and turns crazy) does anyone know if keeping 'dere' at the end was influenced by the popularity of Tsundere? Just based on the order one would think it would be 'dereyan'. But then, looking at it, this would not make a portmanteau since both share "der" so that is probably why it is this way and works better since it shares more of a resemblance to yanderu and is familiar to those who know tsundere which seems to be a more widely used term. Tyciol (talk) 17:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "Yandere" is the accepted term, and I've never seen anything like "dereyan" to describe this archetype. A see also section is okay.--十八 22:33, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh yeah I wasn't disputing it was accepted, just trying to figure out the etymology (like why chosen in the first place) and proposing it must be the portmanteau factor as well as reference to tsundere (which my guess is preceded it since it's more popular) for why. I'll add the 'see also' section. Tyciol (talk) 01:09, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Yandere]]

message: The plural of tsundere is tsunderera (ツンデレ等), but this is not mentioned anywhere in the article.  It would be a good idea to include it, otherwise the comparison to Cinderella isn't obvious.98.217.134.243 (talk) 08:21, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I seriously doubt this as the Japanese language doesn't have plural forms for their nouns. And I have never seen any other reliable sources make a connection with Cinderella. So what are your sources? —Farix (t | c) 12:40, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There are certain informal plurals for groups of people, such as -tachi (neutral) and -ra (v. informal / rude). This use fits the pattern. 216.174.213.195 (talk) 18:15, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Plural Form

message: This article has no valid references. Material that is being added is original research.
Ref 1) A broken link to "Matthew's Anime Blog". Even if were working, it would still be an invalid link.
Ref 2) A link to the homepage a university student's homespun dictionary project. That page doesn't mention "Tsundere", and even if it did, it would be a questionable reference, since it's just a student project.
Ref 3) The "Manichi Times" link simply goes to a Wikipedia article — that Wiki article doesn't mention "Tsundere", either. 
Without the original Manichi Times article, there's no way of determining whether the references are encyclopedic. Given the tone of the rest of this article, it seems dubious.
In sum, nothing in this article reflects anything except opinions that cannot verified WP:V. This is one of Wiki's three core policies. 
Article should add valid, reliable references, or be deleted. Piano non troppo (talk) 05:56, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The link to the Mainichi Times Wikipedia article is a convenience link for those who wish to learn more about the Mainichi Times.  Just because you can't get a hold of the newspaper, doesn't make it not verifiable by WP:V.  If that were the case, we would have to disqualify journal articles from Wikipedia because not everyone can access them.  --Malkinann (talk) 04:13, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There's nothing convenient about a link to the wrong page with no indication of where to find the information. And there's a difference between scholarly publications that are not available online, and invalid references. There are no valid references in this that can easily be checked at all. It appears editors are using invalid references to support original research and unencyclopedic material. Piano non troppo (talk) 05:26, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If people want to find out more about the Mainichi Times, they can, by using the wikipedia article - that is what I meant by calling it a 'convenience link'.  The  article in the Mainichi Times "Toymaker introduces portable TV with harsh audio guidance that gradually gets kinder" (published in the 2nd of February, 2007 edition) is a case of WP:Access to sources.  It's not easy to access the article, but that lack of access ease has no impact on its verifiability.  --Malkinann (talk) 05:48, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Quite. The Shimbun refs have everything you need to find the article: the newspaper, the day, the title, and even quotes if you have full-text search. (I didn't include page numbers, true, but I've forgotten why not; either LexisNexis didn't include them or they weren't there.) --Gwern  (contribs) 14:38 12 November 2009 (GMT)
"Comiket organizer Koichi Ichikawa has described Lum Invader of Urusei Yatsura as being both the source of moe and the first tsundere;"
This is wrong. Lum is not a tsundere neither the first one. In an interview I made to Izumi Matsumoto (Kimagure Orange Road author), he and the Shonen Jump editor told me that Madoka Ayukawa was the first Tsundere in manga.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.18.27.134 (talk) 08:31, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

text: It's not about what's right or wrong, but that this was his verified opinion. You can add what Matsumoto said if you can source it to the interview.--十八 09:05, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: No valid references for article

message: Hi there Wikipedia.
I just wanted to let you know that on Saturday, October 8th, some guy mentioned tsundere on Reddit.
Link: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/l4l42/what_are_some_small_considerate_things_you_do/c2pqgmu
I read the article, and saw that it needed a citation for mentions in mass media.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.109.0.201 (talk) 15:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mention of tsundere on Reddit.  

message: Escapist article. Enjoy! Axem Titanium (talk) 02:28, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The mentioned study is this one:  --Mps (talk) 20:39, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source 

message: Aisaka Taiga is wrongly acknowledged as a tsundere among english speaking users, whereas she actually isn't, so she should actually be removed /replaced by someone who is truly a tsundere (like shana from shakugan no shana for example, if you need a character voiced by the same seiyuu Kugimiya Rie). First of all, I'm very surprised I had to do that far for something that should be obvious to anyone speaking Japanese, but let's go through it.
"Tsundere" is a Japanese term, and Aisaka Taiga a character created by a japanese author. So how about we start by looking at what the various Japanese Wikipedia pages tells us. 
#  The Tsundere page  mention Kugimiya Rie as being a tsundere, but "oddly", doesn't make a single mention of Aisaka Taiga (which already means that on the Japanese side they at the very least didn't think that this example was either necessary or proper, but let's move on)
#  The [Toradora page] has obviously a part about Aisaka Taiga (逢坂 大河) 's character. There's quite a lot of text describing among other thing her personality. This time, you'll notice that she isn't mentioned as a "tsundere" in her description, not a single time. Note that the English version of this page doesn't do it either.  That's still no proof here, so lets move on again. 
#  The Kugimiya Rie page brings something very interesting to the table. It obviously mention in the 交友関係 part that she voices a lot of tsundere, but doesn't include Taiga in the listed character. But lower on the page, there's an interesting line. "とらドラ!のオーディション時、監督の長井龍雪は当初「ツンデレ」と呼ばれるのが嫌で、釘宮を落とすつもりでいたが、実際にオーディションを行い、釘宮の演技を聞いた際に「すみません、負けました」と思い、逢坂大河役が決まる（おつかれさまでした！の本より）" . In other words, when deciding the cast of Toradora, Nagai Tayutsuki, the Toradora animation director, first rejected the idea of having Taiga voiced by the popular Kugimiya Rie because that was risking to associate "Aisaka Taiga" with "tsundere" (since she's the "queen of tsundere" seiyuu), and that he would dislike that result. However, after the audition, he was so convinced by Kugimiya Rie's performance that he said "I"m sorry, I lost", and still took Kugimiya Rie as Taiga's seiyuu despite that risk (risk that proved to be real since I'm forced to write all of that 6 years later). Furthermore, this is an official bit of information, as this is an anecdote included in the official book <<とらドラ!>> おつかれさまでした! - toradora! Otsukaremashita! ( you can take a look at the cover here : http://www.suruga-ya.jp/product/detail/ZHORE18067 ) So the only association made on the Japanese wiki side between Aisaka Taiga and "tsundere" is the reticence of the director at the idea of taking a seiyuu that would bring that confusion among watchers. 
#  So what about japanese fans themselves? Well, lots of Japanese indeed makes that confusion, but it's far less common than on the English side (the very fact that Taiga isn't associated on the japanese wikipedia is already an clue of this obviously). Let's now go outside of wikipedia, on website like chiebukuro (A "yahoo answers" type of website often used by Japanese peoples) and check discussion with the word "aisaka taiga" and "tsundere" to see the opinion of fans as well. Here we go : http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1023319070 . Surprise. The op himself isn't asking if Aisaka is a tsundere but saying instead "so aisaka isn't a tsundere, but what kind of xDere is she ?". And in the 2 pages of answers, not a single person acknowledged her as fitting a tsundere. You get propositions like "usodere" (uso= lie) as well as the three main characters are simply pampered/spoiled (甘えんぼ) children rather than fitting a xdere trope. Looking at other Japanese websites, the opinion differs. Peoples who have read the original source are often contesting it though. Some peoples make that conclusion as well after that long analysis ( http://d.hatena.ne.jp/str017/20090922/p1 ) : Aisaka Taiga can be considered a Tsundere if you give a very broad meaning to the word tsundere, and not a tsundere as soon as you try to restrain the meaning. And then to point out that a "very broad meaning of the word tsundere has almost no meaning anymore" (in which I agree, since that would make most of IRL women tsundere or potential tsundere, which is stupid).
Honestly, as someone who read more than four hundred novels in Japanese, read tons of manga and watched lots of anime in Japanese since 15-20 years, speak and write japanese almost fluently since years, and have read the whole Toradora series in Japanese as well, this baffles me that so many peoples on english website can be blinded so much by Aisaka Taiga's seiyuu that they don't even realize that Aisaka Taiga isn't a Tsundere, and far from it. And that Wikipedia users on the  "WikiProject Anime and manga" aren't even considering the idea of checking the Japanese side of wikipedia before trusting a random English review of a ANN regular user about the first volume of the original translated series as a "reliable source" to continue using that character as an example. 
So now, if you still consider that your "trusted source" is valid, please say so. There's plenty of Japanese peoples saying the same, some of them going as far as saying "it makes me angry when I see someone saying that Aisaka Taiga is a tsundere", so there's plenty of website that can be linked until you're satisfied. Notice that since I'm not asking for the wikipedia page to say that Aisaka Taiga is a tsundere but simply change the example used to someone else, I don't really mind if you want to deny what is above as a proof of her not being one. But at the very least, this should be proof that the current "proof" you're using to justify letting Aisaka taiga in there should not be trusted, and this is far too contestable to be left as your example on a wikipedia page. 
And furthermore, I heavily advocate that you remove on any other wikipedia pages from the "WikiProject Anime and manga" any association made between the name Aisaka Taiga and the term "tsundere". This, for the sake of a wikipedia more trustworthy as an information source for anime/manga, obviously.S26 Zefyris (talk) 12:15, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I've changed Kugimiya example to Louise and Nagi according to the two Manichi articles. I wouldn't consider the Yahoo Answers reliable unless it was answered by someone on staff. That the anime's director didn't want to cast Kugimiya because of her tsundere rep but changed his mind is a worthy nugget for the Kugimiya bio and the Toradora article. Saying that "I'm sorry, I lost" could be related to tsundere but it's speculation, but the Louise and Nagi examples are clearer tsundere ones anyway. However, reviews that group Taiga as typical tsundere will still exist as the one that was posted by a long-time ANN reviewer  and this recent one for a student newspaper   I wouldn't expect any official website to print that their character is tsundere unless it was intentional. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 15:28, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing Aisaka Taiga as an example 

message: Tsundere as a term has been around for a long time, and over this time several new character names have developed with at least the names derived from this archetype.  There's the yandere, who is generally loving and kind but at the drop of a hat will become obsessive and homicidally protective, the kuudere, who appears cold and dark but is really sweet and caring, the dorodere who appears to be sweet and sincere but is really just hiding a seriously messed up personality beneath the surface, and others.  These all came after the Tsundere's character had evolved significantly and took their names from it to demonstrate the similar contrast in character traits.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.255.122.17 (talk) 16:06, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: What's a long time? Do you have a source for the information that this term inspired other "-dere" terms? See -gate. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 20:34, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Derived names 

message: -"Tsundere" as a concept is not strictly limited to women, and is not strictly limited to manga or anime. The character Germany from the series Hetalia: Axis Powers is portrayed as being tsundere, and is paired with a "lovable loser", Italy Veneziano."
I have read the citation, but from the perspective of a person who watches hetalia, this is just inaccurate. 
# Germany in hetalia is not the Tsundere. I'm not very good at explaining all this stuff but the well known tsundere of hetalia is England, who behaves hostilely towards almost all characters and shies away from showing affections. Germany is indeed stern most of the times but he doesn't really shy away from showing affections although he is shy - like many people not perceived as Tsundere would - when he does show affections. 
# Germany is NOT paired with Italy in Hetalia. Not that GerIta isn't fluffy and fanon-ish but GerIta has never been confirmed by Hima (the creator of hetalia). (and I doubt if he ever will.) The only canon pairing in hetalia is HRE x Italy.
Would anyone edit this part?
A Hetalia Fanatic Novembrrrrrrrrre 17:04, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It's Germany. See Patrick Galbraith's thesis: "For example, Germany and Italy, the former a tough guy who cannot express his emotions (tsundere) and the latter a lovable loser (hetare)." AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 18:27, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Replace Germany with England in the Terminology Part 

message: Just watched this  and found out the guy provided the sources in the description here Opecuted (talk) 16:07, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  History section?