Talk:Battle of Thermopylae in popular culture

message: As they are part of popular culture, I think there should be a video games section. Personally, this would be an interesting section, since video games are some of the few popular culture references that don't specifically go straight to the Thermopylae battle. Some notable games that have been influenced by Spartan culture that I can think of off the top of my head would be Halo, the Age of Empires series plus Age of Mythology, Rome: Total War, Spartan: Total Warrior. Shrumster 11:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Video Games

message: I think this article leaves out the two other aspects of Spartn culture that the city state is remembered for. 
1) As a "fascist", "militaristic" spoil to "democratic". "humanist" Athens.
2) And as slave holders, most famously of the Messenian helots. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.49.242.230 (talk) 13:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have moved the Sparta in popular culture to Battle of Thermopylae in popular culture as all of the information came cut from the Battle of Thermopylae page and had nothing to do with Sparta in general. So the above may have to wait until someone changes "Sparta in popular culture" from a redirect into an article. --Philip Baird Shearer 06:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another aspect of Sparta in popular culture 

message: And Sparta is of course also famous for pederasty:
According to Erich Bethe,
What the Dorians brought was boy-love as a publicly recognized and honorable institution. The Dorians strictly regulated the love relationship between man and boy and treated it as a very important arrangement very publicly with honorable earnestness under the protection of the family, society, the state, and religion. . . . In Sparta, Crete, and Thebes. . . . the education of the ruling class, resting on pederasty, [was directed towards] arete and manly virtue, which principally manifested itself in war.[12]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartan_pederasty
Ahassan05 13:44, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have moved the Sparta in popular culture to Battle of Thermopylae in popular culture as all of the information came cut from the Battle of Thermopylae page and had nothing to do with Sparta in general. So the above may have to wait until someone changes "Sparta in popular culture" from a redirect into an article. --Philip Baird Shearer 06:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  And ofcourse 

message: I removed the Cicero quote, which was in the wrong spot as it was not a poem, and in fact was not written by Cicero at all. It's adapted from his Tusculan Disputations, with additional info from Herodotus I suppose, but it actually comes from chapter 5 of Wheelock's Latin. Cicero would have never written something so easy to read! Adam Bishop (talk) 16:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Somebody put it back. You're right: I found the original passage and indeed it barely resembles the passage in Wheelock, so I've removed it again. In case anybody is curious, this has the original passage in paragraph 101, and is the source cited by Wheelock. - furrykef (Talk at me) 16:03, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cicero quote 

message: It's my understanding that Mary Renault's book The Lion in the Gateway is not a novel, but nonfiction. In that case, shouldn't this item be removed? Margaret Donsbach (talk) 23:49, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popular culture, literature 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I added a reference to the 2006 film “300”, but it was immediately reversed. Why are we not allowed to mention this film?
The 2006 film 300 is a fictionalized retelling of the battle, co-written and directed by Zack Snyder, based on the 1998 comic series of the same name by Frank Miller and Lynn Varley.
118.211.183.167 (talk) 20:41, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I adjusted the formatting of your comment since the original formatting would mess up the talk page. Anyway, the reason the addition was reverted is that it was unsourced. This was stated in the edit summary. The sourcing required is outlined at MOS:POPCULT. TompaDompa (talk) 02:24, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: @TompaDompa Why do you choose to make the article worse by removing unsourced but obviously true information instead of improving it by adding a source yourself? I'm sure you're not disputing the factual accuracy of the film 300 being a popular culture reference to the battle of Thermopylae. :::: Amaurea (talk) 10:07, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Pop culture references are not included on articles like this simply because they exist. They are included because they are discussed by WP:Reliable sources on the overarching topic (Battle of Thermopylae in popular culture). The sources that I've come across (somewhat surprisingly) don't have a lot to say about the depiction of the Battle of Thermopylae in 300. They do have a fair amount to say about how the Spartans are portrayed in 300, but that's out of scope for this article. TompaDompa (talk) 10:34, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @TompaDompa I think it's sad that this article can't mention the single most significant popular culture depiction (at least in terms of public exposure) of this battle because a source matching those specific criteria can't be found. Don't you agree that this is a big problem? Is the scope of this article really so narrow? I think everybody would agree that the article would be better if it were mentioned. Isn't that more important than this strict interpretation of the guidelines? Maybe it would be worth it to get feedback from more Wikipedia editors? Amaurea (talk) 19:12, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

text: @TompaDompa The "Historical inaccuracies" section in 300 (film) has a lot of references that discuss various ways in which the depiction of this battle is unrealistic. Don't any of those work for you? Amaurea (talk) 19:31, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Requiring sources on the overarching topic is what enables us to have high-quality articles of this kind to begin with, as opposed to mere TV Tropes-style lists of examples. This article still has a long way to go in that regard, to be sure, but lowering our standards would be counterproductive. The sources in the section you mention appear to be sources on the film, not on the battle as such. TompaDompa (talk) 04:55, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

text: @Amaurea The reason for removing unsourced but obviously true information" is explained at WP:VNT. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:50, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @Piotrus Stopping the quote there makes it misrepresent what I said. The information that was deleted *was* verifiable. Sources for the existence of the film 300, the fact that it depicts this battle, and the fact that it had a large popular impact, can all be found in the wikipedia article for the film. The issue wasn't that it wasn't verifiable, but that a source was missing. It's more constructive to resolve this by providing a source than to delete the information. Amaurea (talk) 19:28, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you provide a source that says that this film is a significant representation of the battle? I agree this should be possible, and if so, I'd expect TompaDompa to concur that it can be mentioned here (although they will, of course, review the source and express their views, I don't presume to speak for them). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:39, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: So let's get this straight. You need a source to say that the film 300 is a significant representation of the battle. That's like saying the leaves are green but then asking for a source that says so. It's a bit preposterous that Wikipedia has lost its credibility due to obvious play of egos from people who make rules but it only applies to others, not themselves. Embarrassing. 199.66.69.4 (talk) 19:51, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The sourcing required to mention the film 300 on the article Battle of Thermopylae in popular culture is different from the sourcing required to mention the Battle of Thermopylae on the article 300 (film). That the film depicts the battle is uncontroversial, but merely mentioning instances of the battle appearing in popular culture is not how we construct quality articles on topics like this. That approach leads us to TV Tropes-style lists, which is what this article was a year ago (prior to the AfD discussion). The way to get a quality article is to add analysis, and that requires proper sourcing lest we engage in WP:Original research. The essay WP:CARGO outlines this fairly well, in my opinion. Another way of putting it would be this: yes, we need WP:Reliable sources  to say that the film 300 is a significant representation of the battle, because that is a judgment call about the relative importance of different depictions of the battle and we are not supposed to make such judgment calls but leave them to the sources (the sources may, for instance, consider the comic 300 to be an important aspect of the overarching topic without considering the film to be so). TompaDompa (talk) 15:03, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about the 2006 film “300”?