Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles/Ogasawara Islands debate

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:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was oppose. --Endroit 06:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

message: :Add  * Support  or  * Oppose  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
* Oppose — Major dictionaries and encyclopedias seem to agree that it's called "Bonin Islands" in English.  (The Ogasawara Islands article should be moved to Bonin Islands).--Endroit 23:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: :Add  * Support  or  * Oppose  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
* Oppose — Major dictionaries and encyclopedias use "Ryukyu" without any macrons in English.  Ryukyu Islands and related articles should be moved back to their unmacronned form.--Endroit 23:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "by far the most commonly"? Did you notice the bibliography excerpt bibliography excerpt showing many examples to the contrary? Those were only in book titles (and excluded linguistic works). It is far more prevalent in actual text.  Bendono 06:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You ignored my question about what percentage of the books on the topic those examples actually represented. Dekimasu 12:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

text: For those editors who are citing scholarly works as the correct form over sources such as Webster's, I would note that in other areas WP uses a spelling or transliteration standard that deviates from academic practice--see WP:GREEK for an example. The standard laid out there is very different from what you'd find in an academic journal. --Akhilleus (talk) 07:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you wish correct spelling then choose "Ryukyu." It is the correct spelling of the word. This can be seen in many dictionaries such as reference.com and webster.com. The Oxford dictionary mentions Ryukyu in the Ryukyu Islands entry, but has no mention of Ryūkyū. Jecowa 01:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the correct spelling is "Ryūkyū". Arguing for "Ryukyu" is like arguing that 49 / 100 is equal to 0.5 when it is 0.49. "Ryukyu" is close, but still not accurate. "Ryūkyū" is the most accurate spelling. A great many books (partial bibliography excerpt) do use the more accurate form "Ryūkyū". Wikipedia needs to be accurate, not merely close. Bendono 02:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Ryūkyū" more closely indicates the Japanese spelling than "Ryukyu," but the English spelling can be found in English dictionaries. Jecowa 04:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A lot of things can be found in English dictionaries which aren't really English words, or which aren't really words at all, but merely colloquialisms and such. Even though "truthiness" is in Merriam-Webster, does that really make it a word? LordAmeth 10:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: LordAmeth, you're just happenning to contradict ALL English dictionaries in this case.  If ALL the English dictionaries list "Ryukyu Islands" or "Ryukyu" WITHOUT macrons, the macronless form "Ryukyu" is correct English, and the macronned form "Ryūkyū" is NOT correct English; that's all.  Also,  wouldn't have macrons to begin with.  Perhaps you meant to say , , or ?--Endroit 11:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I used "tycoon" as my example intentionally, as it is one of the few words to have been taken from Japanese fully into English, adopting a meaning and usage completely outside of the Japanese context. Unlike sushi, sumō, Ryūkyū, and the like, which are only used in reference to the same meaning they hold in Japanese, "tycoon" has been fully adopted into the English language and thus the romanized spelling, taikun, referring to the original Japanese word, is no longer valid. I must say, I honestly don't care if I'm going against every popular English language dictionary. Look at any scholarly article, scholarly text on Japan, any dictionary or encyclopedia specifically devoted to Japanese terms, and you'll find that nearly all of them use macrons (or spelled out romanization, e.g. "ou", "uu") in every case. LordAmeth 11:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Your premise would have to be that "Ryukyu Islands" and "Ryukyu" are NOT an English word, thereby contradicting ALL English dictionaries.--Endroit 11:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By no means do "ALL" English dictionaries support your case. A glance at the Library of Congress Authorities, surely one of the most trustworthy sources available, gives "Ryūkyū" as a variant for Ryukyu Islands. And the trend seems to be towards increasing use of macrons in Japanese names and words in English transliteration (when not already incorporated into English, as with your later example of "tofu" [which comes to us via Japanese from Chinese, by the way]). Furthermore, "Ryūkyū"/"Ryukyu" is a proper noun, not a common word, it precisely is "NOT an English word", so all the more reason for it to be rendered in a manner that comes closer to the language of origin. Pinkville 13:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

text: A further note, the authoritative Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names actually prefers the Japanese Nansei-shotō to any of the Ryūkyū variants. Then again, probably the just alternative would be to use a form like Luchu that more closely resembles the Okinawan... Pinkville 00:23, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Sure, why not use "the most accurate rōmaji" for , , and  as well?--Endroit 11:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, that's not a bad idea. Although the forms without macrons are far more common, the ones with macrons are more accurate and using them on Wikipedia article titles would not only be harmless as also educational.--Húsönd 18:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Toshiba is a company name... It's proper English to use Toshiba. WhisperToMe 02:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, and ALL the dictionaries were wrong to begin with, because , , and  would be "more informative and more precise" for the reader as well, right?--Endroit 11:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They would indeed, yes. I'd be happy with sumō and tōfu; but as "tofu" now appears to be completely assimilated within English, "tōfu" might seem a bit pedantic or quaint (cf "façade"). (Offhand I can't judge the degree to which "sumo"/"sumō" has been assimilated.) They're words, not names. Toshiba is the romanized form that's chosen by 東芝 itself and that is (I think) universally used. As for Ryūkyū/Ryukyu, unlike a corporation or person it can't choose how to spell itself. I'm not much influenced in any Japanese governmental choice of spelling, as Japanese (quasi-) government organs make such a balls-up of romanization. I'm certainly not influenced by the practice of the US occupation regime. And when it comes to names I'm not much interested in general-purpose English dictionaries. To go further back in this thread, I'd like Tōkyō and Ōsaka too. (There's nothing specifically Japanese about this: I'd also like Rīga.) -- Hoary 14:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Thank you for the valuable comments. However, I am sure that someone will point out that Japan (presently) calls the chain of islands 南西諸島. This issue has been discussed enough and no one is proposing "Nansei Islands" (which already exists as a redirect) so it really has no bearing on this case. Whether the origin of English "Ryūkyū Islands" is 琉球諸島, 琉球列島, or even somehow 南西諸島, it is obvious that Ryūkyū (even Ryukyu) is to be identified as 琉球. Hopefully we do not need to rehash that conversation again here. Besides, this vote is about Ryūkyū vs. Ryukyu in general, and not only about the expression "Ryūkyū Islands". Bendono 02:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to stress that when we romanize, we transliterate: there is a word in Japanese that has a certain meaning that we want to express or explain and for that purpose we approximate the word in latin characters. But in this case, we don't want to give the impression that we are romanizing, because we aren't using something like Nansei-shotō. Ryukyu, as used in English, is certainly based on a Japanese word, but it is now an English word with an English meaning. There is no macrons in English like there is in (some forms of) romanized Japanese. Wipe 08:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's why I said that it would be "strong support" if Japan still used this name.  It's my opinion that the layperson would not recognize the word Ryukyu (Ryūkyū) if you asked them about it, so, we should strive for accuracy above repeating the same casual attitude that has resulted in the less accurate spelling in other sources. As pointed out above, some published books have taken the time to make it correct, so it is not like we are making things up.  Macrons don't appear out of thin air; however, they can easily disappear. Neier 14:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What is it that is so accurate and correct about implying a Japanese meaning when we use the English one? There is a difference, whether some layperson knows it or not. Wipe 00:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: It is interesting how all of your examples change much more than just a macron. At present, there is no specific rule for Ryūkyū or Ryukyu. If there is a consensus for Ryukyu, it will be added as an exception like Tokyo. That may be used to argue for Ryukyu in all cases. I do not know how it would be written if there is a consensus for Ryūkyū. However, it would not be listed as one of the exceptions. Thus, there may be more freedom in the interpretation. In the end, whatever the result is, it will probably be used to argue all Ryukyu or Ryūkyū either way. Bendono 22:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

text: There are already appropriate redirects. That will not change regardless of the conclusion made here. You can access the various pages with or without macrons. The result of this vote will be used to change the spelling of Ryukyu or Ryūkyū in the actual articles. If some useful redirects are missing, please add them or let us know. Bendono 22:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey