Talk:Influenza/Archive 1

message: The web suggests that the "stomach flu" is an actual disease, though the terminology is obviously unfortunate and not precise. The common distinction seems to lie between "upper respiratory flu" and "intestinal flu". The first one is influenza the second one is not. However, both terms exist and stomach flu does neither just refer to side effects of influenza, nor is it a general description of the symptoms given in the article. Yet, it seems that it is sometimes used to label a group of viral infections rather than a specific disease. However these problems have a common general treatment and so they may even deserve a new article. I am no expert and have no reliable sources, so I won't edit here. Though I generally would not trust the web, here are some links that give a hint at this possible alternative meaning:
* http://scc.uchicago.edu/stomachflu.htm
* http://www.parents.com/articles/health/5172.jsp
:Quote from this page:
:"Although everyone refers to vomiting and diarrhea as stomach flu, these problems are usually caused by a gastrointestinal virus (a true "flu" is influenza, a respiratory infection). Rotavirus is the most common culprit in young children;"
* http://www.the-health-pages.com/education/stomache_flu.html
Even if stomach flu is considered too unclear or improper terminology, one should have pointers to diseases that would commonly be labeled this way.
--Markus Krötzsch 20:51, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stomach flu -- myth? 

message: According to the latest update by WHO, avian influenza is most likely contracted by contact with duck blood and not communicable from human to human, and this is why we did not see a larger outbreak of the virus.
Does anybody else think this should be added to the main page?  I'd update it myself if I wasn't sick at home concerned that I might have the flu...  - Christophernicus 06:24, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In accordance with updates from the WHO, I'm removing the Recent Development section.  Avian influenza is transmitted to humans by migratory waterfowl and human-to-human contact has only been confirmed in one unusual case so far.  Although a new pandemic is expected sometime, it will not come from avian influenza. - Christophernicus 09:17, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avian influenza update needed 

message: When a certain serotype of influenza virus is predominant in a population, more and more people get that type of flu and become immune (you also get herd immunity from others who have had the virus) to it. When the body is faced with a viral insult, B-cells start to generate antibodies (mostly IgG) to neutralise these virions. At the same time, cytotoxic T-cells start to attack cells that have been infected, thus wiping out the presence of the flu virus in the body. These cells generate memory cells which helps to quickly eliminate the same virus if it ever becomes present in the body leading to immunity.
These B and T cells work by recognising the various patterns of antigens on the surface of the flu virion, mainly Hemagglutinin and Neuraminidase which is what the H and N in H5N1 stands for. Because of the highly active antigenic drift present in RNA viruses (BTW, antigenic drift is different from antigenic shift and they are completely different mechanisms), the hemagglutinin, neuraminidase and other surface molecules undergo subtle changes. This allows the virus to evade the previously protective population of B and T cells. Hence a previously immune person becomes susceptible to this new serotype of the same virus.
:i.e. H1N1 serotype 100 (immune) ---antigenic drift---> H1N1 serotype 101 (susceptible)
The above is what antigenic drift does, antigenic shift is a completely different story involving the gaining of new species specific antigens that allows cross-species infection.
Usually when a cross-species jump occurs an epidemic results (such as HIV, which jumped from monkeys to humans). In the example below, a previously deadly strain of porcine flu gains surface proteins (from the mild human flu) that enable it to infect humans.
:i.e. pig only flu (deadly) + human only flu (mild) ---antigenic shift---> human flu (deadly)
So how does this antigenic drift tie in with seasonal variation? Firstly, a new virus serotype which the population has no prior immunity to, becomes circulated in the environment. Then it waits for a period such as winter or the monsoon season (seen in all South-East Asian countries) where the general immunity of the population is weaker. Once the virus takes a foothold in a given population, it spreads rapidly to generate a large number of influenza cases from the same virus serotype. 
The only good news is that once a person has recovered from the virus, he is immune to that serotype for a long long time. The bad news is that antigenic drift happens quite fast in flu virus. This is why vaccines against polio, rubella, varicella are so effective; while there seems to be a new flu vaccine out every year.
--Av01d 07:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antigenic drift and Seasonal Variations 

message: Can i request for a section which will talk about the mechanism this virus uses in infection. Also, if anyone is talented enough, can we have a Flash movie about how the virus infect the cels and then spread?? --LowLifer 02:36, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mechanism of infection 

message: This subject has been in the news the past few weeks and I imagine that many dog owner are as concerned as I am.
Perhaps someone more learned than I can write a section on this subject? Elipongo 02:26, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canine Influenza 

message: I see that this article has references, but there are no footnote markers, so just by reading the article, you can't tell which reported facts are supported by which sources.  More importantly, you can't tell which reported facts are unreferenced, and this need checking up on.  Editors with access to these sources are needed to fix this.  Thanks! -- Beland 02:38, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: This article doesn't say where epidemic flu strains originate.  I've heard that they originate in poultry in Southeast Asia, but I don't know for sure, and I'd like to know more. --Smack (talk) 02:13, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the article tells me all I ever wanted to know about H5N1.  However, I'm wondering about the garden-variety flu that comes around every year. --Smack (talk) 05:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The "garden variety flu that comes around every year" is caused by flu virus species A, B, or C. The species A varieties that yearly attack humans are called "human flu virus" which is to say it is a variety of the species "avian flu virus" (species A) that has made genetic changes to adopt to its human hosts. It passes from human to human ALL YEAR ROUND and never goes away completely. When it is cold (winter in the north, summer in the south part of the world) infection from "human flu" increases something like ten fold or more. Different strains of avian flu virus circulate in different years as it is constantly mutating. The flu vaccine this year contains proteins from the coat of two subtypes of species A and from species B. Species B and C don't have subtypes. I think I'll and this to Flu season. WAS 4.250 17:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I know that it's a different strain every year.  I was wondering where this strain originates. --Smack (talk) 06:17, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As near as I can tell, I've answered your question. Let's try this a different way. Phrase your question in a yes/no or multiple-choice way and maybe you can make progress in seeing i have answered your question and/or I can make progress in understanding what you are asking that has not been answered. Surely you aren't expecting an answer like "the species B flu virus dominant strain on December 1, 2005 resulted from genetic drift in a prior strain in June 2005 in Ms. Sally Smith of Chicago." While that level of detail is unknown, if we knew enough, that would be the actual specific answer to one strain of the many strains of the three species of flu virus. WAS 4.250 13:00, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You answered my question very clearly with regard to the "current pandemic threat strain of H5N1."  I'll try yes-or-no questions, as you suggest: (1) Are the origins of epidemic flu strains usually known?; (2) if so, do these strains originate in some contexts more often than in others? --Smack (talk) 04:51, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks.  That makes sense.  Sorry about the misunderstanding. --Smack (talk) 06:23, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin 

message: Perhaps the following citation is factually correct, but I find stating this as one of the main problems created by flu somewhat disturbing: 
:"It rapidly spreads around the world in seasonal epidemics, imposing considerable economic burden, in the form of health care costs and lost productivity." No mention of death or human suffering yet, this damn disease makes people loose money!" - unsigned comment by 84.102.180.235
:::You are right. I changed the intro to emphasize lives over money. (My original comment (now deleted), was based on the misconception we were talking about H5N1). 4.250.198.154 01:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death and desease, a disaster for corporations 

message: ;Virus
A virus is one type of microscopic parasite that infects cells in biological organisms. 
;Orthomyxoviridae
The Orthomyxoviridae are a family of RNA viruses which infect vertebrates. It includes those viruses which cause influenza. Viruses of this family contain 7 to 8 segments of linear negative-sense single stranded RNA.
;Influenza virus
"Influenza virus" refers to a subset of Orthomyxoviridae that create influenza. This is not a phylogenetics based taxonomic category.
;Avian influenza virus
Avian influenza viruses have 10 genes on eight separate RNA molecules (called: PB2, PB1, PA, HA, NP, NA, M, and NS). HA, NA, and M specify the structure of proteins that are most medically relevant as targets for antiviral drugs and antibodies. This segmentation of the influenza genome facilitates genetic recombination by segment reassortment in hosts who are infected with two different influenza viruses at the same time. Avian influenza viruses compose the Influenzavirus A genus of the Orthomyxoviridae family and are negative sense, single-stranded, segmented RNA viruses. WAS 4.250 19:06, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: H5N1 virus structure

message: H5N1 is the identifier for a subtype of avian influenza virus.  At the moment, the global spread of H5N1 in birds is considered a significant pandemic threat.
While prior H5N1 strains have been known, they were significantly different from the current H5N1 strain on a genetic level, making the global spread of this new strain unprecedented.  The current H5N1 strain is a fast-mutating, highly pathogenic avian influenza virus (HPAI) found in multiple bird species.  It is both epizootic (an epidemic in nonhumans) and panzootic (a disease affecting animals of many species especially over a wide area). Unless otherwise indicated, "H5N1" in this article refers to the recent highly pathogenic strain of H5N1.
"Since 1997, studies of H5N1 indicate that these viruses continue to evolve, with changes in antigenicity and internal gene constellations; an expanded host range in avian species and the ability to infect felids; enhanced pathogenicity in experimentally infected mice and ferrets, in which they cause systemic infections; and increased environmental stability." NEJM
Tens of millions of birds have died of H5N1 influenza and hundreds of millions of birds have been slaughtered and disposed of to limit the spread of H5N1. Countries that have reported one or more major H5N1 outbreaks in birds (causing at least thousands but in some cases millions of dead birds) are (in order of first outbreak occurrence): Korea, Vietnam, Japan, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Indonesia, China, Malaysia, Russia, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Turkey, Romania, Croatia, Ukraine, Cyprus, Iraq, Nigeria, Egypt, India, France, Niger, Bosnia, Azerbaijan, and Albania. H5N1 has been found in birds in the wild in numerous other countries such as Austria, Bulgaria, Ethiopia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iran, Italy, Kuwait, Serbia and Montenegro, Slovakia, Slovenia, Sweden, Switzerland, and Poland. There have been, so far, no outbreaks in any non-bird species.
H5N1 has low pathogenic varieties endemic in birds in North America. H5N1 has a highly pathogenic variety that is endemic in dozens of species of birds throughout south Asia and is threatening to become endemic in birds in west Asia and Africa. So far, it is very difficult for humans to become infected with H5N1. The presence of highly pathogenic (deadly) H5N1 around the world in both birds in the wild (swans, magpies, ducks, geese, pigeons, eagles, etc.) and in chickens and turkeys on farms has been demonstrated in millions of cases with the virus isolate actually sequenced in hundreds of cases yielding definitive proof of the evolution of this strain of this subtype of the species Influenzavirus A (bird flu virus).
H5N1 caused flu outbreaks in 1959 and in 1991 but these strains were very different from the current highly pathogenic strain of H5N1. Evolution from 1999 to 2002 created the Z genotype which became the dominant strain of highly pathogenic H5N1 in 2004.
In January 2004 a major new outbreak of H5N1 surfaced in Vietnam and Thailand's poultry industry, and within weeks spread to ten countries and regions in Asia, including Indonesia, South Korea, Japan and China. In October 2004 researchers discovered H5N1 is far more dangerous than previously believed because waterfowl were directly spreading the highly pathogenic strain of H5N1 to chickens, crows, pigeons, and other birds and that it was increasing its ability to infect mammals as well. From this point on, avian flu experts increasingly refer to containment as a strategy that can delay but not prevent a future avian flu pandemic. 
In January 2005 an outbreak of avian influenza affected thirty three out of sixty four cities and provinces in Vietnam, leading to the forced killing of nearly 1.2 million poultry. Up to 140 million birds are believed to have died or been killed because of the outbreak. In April 2005 there begins an unprecedented die-off of over 6,000 migratory birds at Qinghai Lake in central China over three months. This strain of H5N1 is the same strain as is spread west by migratory birds over at least the next ten months. In August 2005 H5N1 spread to Kazakhstan, Mongolia and Russia. On September 29 2005, David Nabarro, the newly appointed Senior United Nations System Coordinator for Avian and Human Influenza, warned the world that an outbreak of avian influenza could kill 5 to 150 million people. Also, due to a bipartisan effort of the United States Senate, $4 billion dollars was appropriated to develop vaccines and treatments for Avian influenza. David Nabarro stated that as the virus had spread to migratory birds, an outbreak could start in Africa or the Middle East. Later in 2005 H5N1 spread to Turkey, Romania, Croatia and Kuwait.
In the first two months of 2006 H5N1 spread to Africa and Europe in wild bird populations possibly signaling the beginning of H5N1 being endemic in wild migratory bird populations on multiple continents for decades, permanently changing the way poultry are farmed. WAS 4.250 19:13, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: (first part of) [[Global spread of H5N1]]

message: Does anyone here know how many die each year in the US from flu? The article says: An average of about 36,000 people per year in the United States die from influenza, and I have seen this number many times before. I have also seen it as referring to influenza and pneumonia. Call me simple-minded but I consider this to be a big difference, since dozens of things cause pneumonia (eg strep. pneumoniae). I would think a death from flu would need confirmation from the lab as to the antigens present in in the viral coat, and I think 100 'Mericans popping off each day would make the headlines in every major city year round. I doubt the 36,000 number, and I am never happier than when I am wrong so make me eat my words!!!regford 17:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A CDC press release on January 7, 2003 said: "Using new and improved statistical models, CDC scientists estimate that an average of 36,000 people (up from 20,000 in previous estimates) die from influenza-related complications each year in the United States."CDC Press release January 7, 2003 WAS 4.250 12:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the Mortality per Annum?? 

message: When an article requires an overhaul, it should be done boldly, as the Wikipedia Wikipedia:Be_bold guidelines state. There is no way to reorganize an article without making an apparently large number of changes. I will reorganize as previously, but please note that I am not changing content substantially.  
Wipfeln 19:52, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganization (needed) 

message: The section on sources, listing references, is largely useless.  'npr', for example, is meritless without a listing of program, date, route to its archive, and so on.  And the abreviations are not uniformly clear.--J Walden Retan M.D.
:I moved the references initially used (but now replaced by inline links) to the further reading section. As for improving it further, (1) the user can click on the links and get additional data, (2) better citation formats with more data are slowing replacing what exists just as uncited data is slowly becoming cited. Care to help?  WAS 4.250 21:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: :GA review (see here for criteria)
#It is reasonably well written.
#:a (prose):  b (MoS): 
#It is factually accurate and verifiable.
#:a (references):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 
#It is broad in its coverage.
#:a (major aspects):  b (focused): 
#It follows the neutral point of view policy.
#:a (fair representation):  b (all significant views): 
#It is stable.
#:
#It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
#:a (tagged and captioned):  b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA):  c (non-free images have fair use rationales): 
#Overall: 
#:a Pass/Fail: 
*First of all, a minor thing that must be fixed, the section "Microbiology" does not contain any reference to RNA, but it's sub-section "Influenza A" have all  usage of RNA an mRNA linked. (an easy fix)
*Seccond, more critical, that have a easy fix or a more difficult fix. The sections "Prevention", "Treatment", and "Research" is in violation of MoS, it contains howto sections, is talking to the reader, using words like "us" etc. Either do a major rewrite of those sections, or remove them all together for the time beeing.
**"Prevention", talking to the reader WP:MOS#Avoid the second person
**"Treatment", only a HOWTO.
**"Research", NPOV ("will help us") and WP:MOS#Avoid self-referential pronouns
Onhold. →AzaToth 19:17, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Review 

message: #Glad to see the pluses but putting a minus in front of a word or two is unhelpful. Specificity is necessary unless the goal is being insulting or comparing this article with another. If it is the second case, then it doesn't belong on this page but back on the page where the several articles are being compared against each other. 
#Apparently you wanted RNA to replace RNA. Done.
#WP:MOS#Avoid the second person is good advice. Done.
#"only a HOWTO": Provide an alternative editcopy that is not longer, not harder to read, and is just as informative to the reader. Otherwise it is just blindly applying an inappropriate formula. WAS 4.250 21:06, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Review Review 

message: In the "Microbiology" section, I haven't heard of viral RNAs being inserted into host mRNAs, is this what you meant to say? I added a note and cite tag. TimVickers 05:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some else wrote that without a source. Please delete whatever you find worthy of doubt concerning what you just asked. But is Horizontal gene transfer helpful?WAS 4.250 06:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: Fewer examples from the US/CDC would give this article a more worldwide view. TimVickers 05:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No. More examples from outside the US would help. Deleting is not helpful. WAS 4.250 06:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion 

message: My first review might have been a bit thin, that I'm sorry for, lets try to do this again say?
Things in need to be adressed:
*List in "History" should be converted to inline text. (Wikipedia:Embedded list)
:::Converted to table.
*List in "Microbiology" should be converted to inline text. same list is not referenced, including previous paragraph.
*"Influenza's effects are much more severe than those of the "cold", and last longer. Recovery takes about one to two weeks. Influenza can be deadly, especially for the weak, old or chronically ill. Some flu pandemics have killed millions of people." unrefernced.
:::Added ref and moved to merge with sentence at beginning of section.
*"Influenza reaches peak prevalence in winter, and because the Northern and Southern Hemisphere have winter at different times of the year, there are actually two flu seasons each year. Therefore, the World Health Organization (assisted by the National Influenza Centers) makes two vaccine formulations every year; one for the Northern, and one for the Southern Hemisphere." should have a reference.
:::Added ref.
*"Vaccination against influenza with a flu vaccine is possible and in many cases recommended. The 2006-2007 season is the first in which the U.S. CDC has recommended that children (<59 months) receive the annual flu vaccine." should also have a reference.
:::Added ref
*"Personal health and hygiene are important in avoiding and minimizing influenza. Young children in particular are thought to be a major force of infection within communities." lacks references.
:::I can find no reference to a particularly important role of children in influenza's spread, reworded and added ref.
*First part of "Research" lacks references.
:::Res added and section reformatted.
*The list in "Flu in nonhumans" should be converted to inline list. (I think the list is to short to be able to apply for §2)
:::Done
*"Flu in nonhumans" first part lacks references.
:::Refs added.
Suggestions (things to think about):
*The list in section "Symptoms", is a borderline of §2 in Wikipedia:Embedded list, perhaps it could look better as an inlined list.
::I shrank the list by combining some entries.
*The section adress specially "Influenza A", is type B ad C not notable enough to have place ther also?
::Added some disscussion of these serotypes. TimVickers 04:13, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Rereview 

message: I intend to bring this article to FA quality and take it through the FA process. As part of this we will need to ensure it conforms to WP:LAYOUT and WP:MEDMOS, and uses the highest quality sources specific to the subject area,. Any changes I may make that seem not to improve the article, but just put it in a different format, will probably be due to me trying to re-arrange things to fit these guidelines. TimVickers 22:59, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plan of action for FA process 

message: Hi Tim, i scanned it quickly.  One thing I noticed might be missing is the issue of secondary infections.  i believe the primary reason for the 1918 pandemic was the deaths from the secondary infections.  The 1957 Asian Flu, while bad, was not nearly as leathal due to the availability of antibiotics to control the secondary infections. This may well explian why the spanish flu was misdiagnosed, as stated in the text. David D. (Talk) 16:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch. Now added to history section. Already mentioned in Treatment section. TimVickers 16:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  secondary infections 

message: I was surprised to see you add the non-living reference. I have always regarded viruses as living.  Is there really a consensus for non living among scientists? David D. (Talk) 16:38, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, it depends on your definition. However any definition that classes viruses as living also classes prions as living. I think the link was needed so people can explore this themselves. TimVickers 16:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: [cauaght in edit clash with Tim, and i had already mentioned prions ;) i guess i anticipated your reply]  I just read the section on the life debate in wiki and i have to disagree with the premises made. Viruses are parasites so there is no reason to assume they need to fullfill all the requirements of the arbitrary life definition. In fact, one could argue they are the ultimate life form since they can exist with a minimal genome. There are plenty of gut bacteria that are currently shedding as many genes as possible too. Their genomes are so reduced that they are completely dependent on their host organisms. Of course they are still cellular, but why is that a requirement for life? One argument made is that by defining viruses as life this is the slippery slope to opening the door for prions.  Here i have to disagree since prions have no genome and do not replicate but catalyse conformation changes.  Anyway enough pontificating. In summary, i think the use of non life might be a little too strong in this article since it implies this is accepted, while in reality it is quite controversial.  The former, more neutral version seemed better to me. David D. (Talk) 16:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll try to find a more intermediate form of words. How is "non-cellular" as a description? TimVickers 22:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do we really need the Wendell Stanley sentence?  Keeping both "non-cellular" and WS seems a little strange because, if I understand correctly, TMV was shown to be non-bacterial/non-cellular by the ceramic filtration studies of Dimitri Iwanowski (1892) and Martinus Beijerinick (1898); at least, TMV was >10-fold smaller than any known cell.  If I recall correctly, those filtration studies were quickly followed up by others on foot-and-mouth disease and poliomyelitis, probably before 1910 (well before the 1930's and WS).  Maybe we can just delete the WS sentence altogether?  Anyway, just a thought, Willow 22:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non living 

message: Flu is a disease. Perhaps this article goes into the causative agent a bit too much when there are wikipedia articles about those viruses. Also this article and the article Infuenzavirus B differ on the question of why B doesn't cause pandemics and A does (cause Tim and I apparently read the sources differently - I think the sources indicates it is due to "host diversity" - basically type A can spread from birds to humans and cause a pandemic but B is basically only in humans so it never has a strain unknown to the human immune system to reassort with). Maybe someone can look into these things. 4.250.168.165 04:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent point, added a note on the dual roles of limited antigenic drift and shift in preventing pandemics of influenza B. TimVickers 05:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disease vs virus 

message: Horses with horse flu can run a fever, have a dry hacking cough, have a runny nose, and become depressed and reluctant to eat or drink for several days but usually recover in 2 to 3 weeks. "Vaccination schedules generally require a primary course of 2 doses, 3-6 weeks apart, followed by boosters at 6-12 month intervals. It is generally recognised that in many cases such schedules may not maintain protective levels of antibody and more frequent administration is advised in high-risk situations."equiflunet_vaccines "[P]oultry vaccines, made on the cheap, are not filtered and purified [like human vaccines] to remove bits of bacteria or other viruses. They usually contain whole virus, not just the hemagglutin spike that attaches to cells. Purification is far more expensive than the work in eggs, Dr. Stöhr said; a modest factory for human vaccine costs $100 million, and no veterinary manufacturer is ready to build one. Also, poultry vaccines are "adjuvated" — boosted — with mineral oil, which induces a strong immune reaction but can cause inflammation and abscesses. Chicken vaccinators who have accidentally jabbed themselves have developed painful swollen fingers or even lost thumbs, doctors said. Effectiveness may also be limited. Chicken vaccines are often only vaguely similar to circulating flu strains — some contain an H5N2 strain isolated in Mexico years ago. 'With a chicken, if you use a vaccine that's only 85 percent related, you'll get protection,' Dr. Cardona said. 'In humans, you can get a single point mutation, and a vaccine that's 99.99 percent related won't protect you.' And they are weaker [than human vaccines]. 'Chickens are smaller and you only need to protect them for six weeks, because that's how long they live till you eat them,' said Dr. John J. Treanor, a vaccine expert at the University of Rochester. Human seasonal flu vaccines contain about 45 micrograms of antigen, while an experimental A(H5N1) vaccine contains 180. Chicken vaccines may contain less than 1 microgram. 'You have to be careful about extrapolating data from poultry to humans,' warned Dr. David E. Swayne, director of the agriculture department's Southeast Poultry Research Laboratory. 'Birds are more closely related to dinosaurs.'" New York Times article Turning to Chickens in Fight With Bird Flu published May 2, 2006 Researchers, led by Nicholas Savill of the University of Edinburgh in Scotland, used mathematical models to simulate the spread of H5N1 and concluded that "at least 95 per cent of birds need to be protected to prevent the virus spreading silently. In practice, it is difficult to protect more than 90 per cent of a flock; protection levels achieved by a vaccine are usually much lower than this." SciDev.Net article Bird flu warning over partial protection of flocks published August 16,2006 4.250.168.165 05:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flu vaccine for nonhumans (I have no idea how much of this should go in this article) 

message: "The FEI requires all horses competing in FEI competition to provide evidence of sufficient vaccination against equine influenza. This involves regular six monthly booster vaccinations following a primary vaccination course, as from January 2005. All horses and ponies for which an FEI Passport or a National Passport approved by the FEI has been issued must have the vaccination section completed and endorsed by a veterinarian, stating that it has received two injections for primary vaccination against equine influenza, given between 1 and 3 months apart. In addition, a booster vaccination must be administered within each succeeding 6 months (± 21 days) following the second vaccination of the primary course. None of these injections must have been given within the preceding 7 days including the day of the competition or of entry into the competition stables."  4.250.168.165 05:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Also

message: Poultry farming practices have changed due to H5N1:
*killing millions of poultry
*vaccinating poultry against bird flu
*vaccinating poultry workers against human flu
*limiting travel in areas where H5N1 is found
*increasing farm hygiene
*reducing contact between livestock and wild birds
*reducing open-air wet markets
*limiting workers contact with cock fighting
*reducing purchases of live fowl
*improving veterinary vaccine availability and cost. Council on Foreign Relations
For example, after nearly two years of using mainly culling to control the virus, the Vietnam government in 2005 adopted a combination of mass poultry vaccination, disinfecting, culling, information campaigns and bans on live poultry in cities. Reuters article Vietnam to unveil advanced plan to fight bird flu published on April 28, 2006 4.250.168.165 05:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: And

message: According to the CDC article H5N1 Outbreaks and Enzootic Influenza by Robert G. Webster et. al.:"Transmission of highly pathogenic H5N1 from domestic poultry back to migratory waterfowl in western China has increased the geographic spread. The spread of H5N1 and its likely reintroduction to domestic poultry increase the need for good agricultural vaccines. In fact, the root cause of the continuing H5N1 pandemic threat may be the way the pathogenicity of H5N1 viruses is masked by cocirculating influenza viruses or bad agricultural vaccines."CDC H5N1 Outbreaks and Enzootic Influenza by Robert G. Webster et. al. Dr. Robert Webster explains: "If you use a good vaccine you can prevent the transmission within poultry and to humans. But if they have been using vaccines now [in China] for several years, why is there so much bird flu? There is bad vaccine that stops the disease in the bird but the bird goes on pooping out virus and maintaining it and changing it. And I think this is what is going on in China. It has to be. Either there is not enough vaccine being used or there is substandard vaccine being used. Probably both. It’s not just China. We can’t blame China for substandard vaccines. I think there are substandard vaccines for influenza in poultry all over the world."  MSNBC quoting Reuters quoting Robert G. Webster In response to the same concerns, Reuters reports Hong Kong infectious disease expert Lo Wing-lok saying, "The issue of vaccines has to take top priority," and Julie Hall, in charge of the WHO's outbreak response in China, saying China's vaccinations might be masking the virus." Reuters The BBC reported that Dr Wendy Barclay, a virologist at the University of Reading, UK said: "The Chinese have made a vaccine based on reverse genetics made with H5N1 antigens, and they have been using it. There has been a lot of criticism of what they have done, because they have protected their chickens against death from this virus but the chickens still get infected; and then you get drift - the virus mutates in response to the antibodies - and now we have a situation where we have five or six 'flavours' of H5N1 out there." BBC Bird flu vaccine no silver bullet 22 February 2006 4.250.168.165 05:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: also

message: If 2.5% of those infected with the Spanish flu were killed, and the spanish flu killed 2.5-5% of the world population, does it mean that 100-200% of the world population were infected with the spanish flu?? Yuvalkatz 01:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The mortality should be quoted as "over 2.5%" so I changed this. Looking again at the figures in the second reference, with a 1918 population of 1,800,000 the 50-100 million mortality estimate comes out as 2.5-5% of the total. I suspect this uncertainty comes from the widely-differeng estimates of mortality, depending on which source you consult. The only direct quote of infection rate I've found is in Tannenberger et al. who say approximately 50% had clinical infection. TimVickers 18:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "The case mortality rate varied widely. An overall figure is impossible to obtain, or even estimate reliably, because no solid information about total cases exists. In U.S. Army camps where reasonably reliable statistics were kept, case mortality often exceeded 5 percent, and in some circumstances exceeded 10 percent. In the British Army in India, case mortality for white troops was 9.6 percent, for Indian troops 21.9 percent. In isolated human populations, the virus killed at even higher rates. In the Fiji islands, it killed 14 percent of the entire population in 16 days. In Labrador and Alaska, it killed at least one-third of the entire native population (Jordan, 1927; Rice, 1988). But perhaps most disturbing and most relevant for today is the fact that a significant minority—and in some subgroups of the population a majority—of deaths came directly from the virus, not from secondary bacterial pneumonias." National Academy of Sciences WAS 4.250 22:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mortality in 1918 

message: What happens to the infected cells when you recover from the flu? Are they destroyed/"disinfected"/"quarantined" ... anything else? - unsigned
:A cell that is successfully infected by a virus is converted into viruses and an evicerated sorry ass corpse of a cell. Think of a cell exploding and all that remains is debris and thousands of new viruses unleashed to seek out and destoy new victims by turning them also into virus factories. Recovering from the flu ends this cycle of destruction like the end of a war ends the bombing of enemy factories. The cells in the case of the flu, and the factories in the case of a war, must be rebuilt. In the case of a cell though, dead is dead and it can be replaced but not restored. WAS 4.250 19:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Each cell, infected with the virus (any virus for that matter, not only the flu), that has been spotted and recognized by the immune system, goes under a controlled destruction process (Apoptosis). Virus infection does not always lead to a 'cell explosion' as WAS described, but often change it's metabolism, and cause it to create and release undesired proteins (some could be harmfull). In any case, Apoptosis is the only way for our body to fight those cells, and so 'disinfection' or 'quarantine' never take place. Often, a virus infection is so successful, that it is our own immune system (with it's controlled apoptosis) that kills us (incase of a massive tissue destruction). When you recover from the flu, the body sends nutrients to reconstruct those damaged cells or tissue, killed during that 'battle'. Yuvalkatz 01:35, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, as indicated in H5N1 genetic structure: Influenza A viruses have 10 genes on eight separate RNA molecules (called: PB2, PB1, PA, HA, NP, NA, M, and NS) and PB1 codes for the PB1 protein and the PB1-F2 protein and the PB1-F2 protein interacts with 2 components of the mitochondrial permeability transition pore complex, ANT3 and VDCA1, sensitizing cells to apoptosis so that PB1-F2 contributes to viral pathogenicity and has an important role in determining the severity of a pandemic influenza, according to the article A novel influenza A virus mitochondrial protein that induces cell death. WAS 4.250 06:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What happens during the recovery ? 

message: Old discussions have been moved to archive 1. TimVickers 05:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archived discussions