Talk:Islamofascism/Archive 3

message: Look to the talk pages Talk:Slogan 'Islamofascism' and Talk:List of political epithets for much discussion of this text. --- Charles Stewart 18:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early history of this page 

message: The previous AfD netted roughly equal numbers of "Keep" and "Merge/Redirect" votes, and was closed as a "Keep". However, Mel Etitis has interpreted this result and the closing admin's assessment as "a clear consensus to redirect". Is this appropriate? How is this correct? Is there a wiki policy or guideline that allows admins to declare closing admins' judgments as "clearly" incorrect, and to institute the opposite decision? I'd hoped Mel might deign to explain on the talkpage, but as this hasn't happened I'm wondering whether anyone else knows. Babajobu 17:05, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, Mel has given an explanation of sorts on my talkpage. My interpretation is that he is rubbishing the closing admin's decision because Mel, as a voter for merge/redirect, thought his side was right. Hence "clear consensus", I guess. I find this very irritating. What is the point of going through the AfD process if admins involved in the dispute can just institute their preferred decision regardless? Babajobu 17:13, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Go back and read the comments on the vote, and it is clear that there was a clear preference to either delete, rename, or redirect -- and that these outnumbered Keep. ALso note that it is OK in Wiki to decide to Redirect when a better option emerges--and I created the Neofascism and religion precisely as a way to turn down the heat on the edit wars that plagued this page and other pages with names that were potentially offensive to religious groups.--Cberlet 18:32, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want an alternative example of this, please see Israeli terrorism.  It was put up for deletion about 5 times and kept every time by a large consensus.  At the end, people such as SlimVirgin decided to redirect it even though that went against the AFD votes.Yuber(talk) 18:34, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason that was done, Yuber, was because after months of editing, there was virtually nothing on the page that was properly referenced, despite many requests for citations, then someone created Syrian terrorism as a WP:POINT, so I redirected both to State terrorism and merged the contents. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:26, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  Hmmm...okay, well then I guess we can regard the outcome of AfD's as suggestions, rather than decisions. I hadn't realized this. Still, the notion that there was a "clear consensus" for redirect when a plurality of votes voted Keep seems pretty hubristic of redirect voters such as Mel and Cberlet. Usually clear consensus form around the winning vote, rather than the losing one. Oh well, redirect it is. Babajobu 21:17, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

text: nonsense , don't let these people bury your common sense under with circuituous logic.This page should stay its own article and there is nor reason to redirect it . --CltFn 21:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well I still support keeping the article for the reasons I've stated above. But it doesn't seem to matter what any of us think...admins are apparently free to come along and disregard results of AfD if they prefer a different result. So clearly this is an issue that needs to be sorted out by admins, rather than proles. Babajobu 21:54, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the reason this confusion exists is that VfD decides whether to keep the title or to delete it. All the admins usually do is look to see whether there's a consensus to delete. Any vote that doesn't say delete is regarded as a keep. So the voters decided to keep the title Islamofascism. It's therefore up to the editors on the page to decide what it says: whether it contains a text or just a redirect. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:26, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Slim, if that is so then what is the point of a "redirect" vote? Regardless, how in the gods' names does Mel get off claiming "there was a clear consensus to redirect" when the plurality of the votes were Keep and not for creating a redirect? The AfD process may be flawed, and Mel no doubt feels that his argument in the AfD was the correct one and should have won, but from here it just feels like Mel Etitis is pissing on the non-admins who tried to participate in a wiki consensus-divining process. He's an admin, so he gets to just amble over, freeze the page against the wishes of the plurality of voters, and wander off without deigning to explain his actions to those uppity non-admins who are confused and frustrated by what he's doing. I don't like it all. Babajobu 04:15, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mel's "clear consensus to redirect"

message: For a more accurate vote count at the original VfD, see User talk:Mel Etitis/Afd-Islamofascism (Delete: 8, redirect (or delete): 23, keep: 22, sock-puppets, vague, etc.: 6).  For more discussion of the issue, see Talk:Islamofascism/Archive02.  Note that the issue at the time was clouded by a hatred-fuelled Islamophobia, represented by Klonimus and Enviroknot (together with a host of sock-puppets, now all, or all that we know of, permanently banned).
Protecting the page is meant to ca;m down the edit-warring and to allow a space for people to discuss the issue, not to allow PoV-pushers to have fun attacking the admin who protected it.  If the belief is that the page has been wrongly protected, the correct procedure is to ask for it to be unprotected, giving the reasons, at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection.
While I realise that those for whom Islam is a perfect replacement for the evil empire of the Soviet Union will deperately want to have as many articles as possible in which to vent their spleen, there is no need for this article.  We not only have the article to which it redirects, as well as List of political epithets, but also Islamic fascism and others. If the Wikipedia community has changed its mind since the article was made into a redirect, then that will be a pity, but it will have to be followed.  Until proper discussion of the issue, though, the original consensus should stand. --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 10:28, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The opinions you have just expressed about the consititution of the voting population leads me to realize that you are far too partisan to this article to be involved in it  as an admin. I therefore request that you withdraw yourself from any  administration of this page and leave it to other more impartial administrators to take further action on it.--CltFn 13:36, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Mel, I am deeply offended that you characterise me as a "hate filled" Islamophobe. I am pretty sure that's a violation of WP:NPA and totally unbecoming to an admin in any case. I request a retraction and apology. Klonimus 16:04, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering that you are, at this very moment. using your corner of wikispace to equate Adolf Hitler's Nazism with the ideology of contemporary Islamic movements, "hate filled" seems accurate enough. BrandonYusufToropov 16:31, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Depends on your view of the world , there are many who would be entirely in agreement with the association of Nazism with Islamism and that includes many islamists themselves. There is nothing hate filled about pointing out what is self evident once you look at the   facts. If you go to Memri.org you will see a great deal of speeches by contemporary Islamic demagogues promoting that association.--CltFn 03:37, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Memri takes the technique of cutting and pasting/juxtapositioning to such a level, that i doubt its credibility.  You cannot make such a judgement on a whole civilisation based on the material of one site, thats sole mission is to give a negative impression on the Islamic (Arab) World.  There is plenty of sites highlighting the killing of these same Arab Muslims as well as others in the Islamic world at the hands of Western forces that one could try and make a counter judgement by.  Lets try and be transparent in our reporting and give ourselves some credibility..... 9 Ramadhaan 1428 Muhammad bin Timothy--89.243.66.103 05:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: BYT, If you read my userpage closely, I do not equate Naziism to Islam. I don't even even equate Naziism to Islamofascism (even though thats a very logical connection to make.) All, I say that the fight against Islamofascism is as important to modern people as the fight against Naziism and Communism was to those generations. Again if you have any evidence that I am a "hate filled" Islamophobe. I would like to see it. And if you can't produce any, then I would like you and Mel to stop spreading nasty rumors. Klonimus 19:34, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

text: You and Mel's lack of ability to wikilink to any proof that I am a "hate filled islamophobe" will be taken as profound ownage, and evidence that you both enjoy making baseless personal attacks. Klonimus 02:24, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Re: "I do not equate Nazism to Islamofascism" -- no, you have just been fixating on this picture  with pseudoerotic intensity, trying to get it into mainstream articles, and posting it in User:Klonimus/Islamofascism for the better part of a year now. Anyway, there's your evidence. BrandonYusufToropov 14:23, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  Okay, Mel thinks those who have noted the prominent use of this term and therefore consider it notable are hate-filled Islamophobes who seek "a perfect replacement for the evil empire of the Soviet Union". Thanks, but that doesn't really move the discussion forward. The one thing we've asked is for you to elaborate on your inexplicable assertion that the last AfD produced "a clear consensus to redirect" even though the closing admin judged it a Keep, and Redirect had at best equal numbers to keep. Nobody is "having fun attacking you", we've just been frustrated by your conjuring a "consensus" that nicely matches your own opinion but not the general opinion of the community. At this point the one thing I desperately seek, even more than a perfect replacement for the USSR, is your definition of the word "consensus". Babajobu 13:49, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Regarding your other points, Islamic fascism redirects to Neofascism and religion, and List of political epithets is just that: a list. Neofascism and religion is a good place to survey similarities or alleged similarities between different religious/political movements and fascism, but it cannot cover every alleged instance in detail, and the term "Islamofascism" requires its own article. Regardless, at this point the issue is your blatant misrepresentation of the "clear consensus" of the community, rather than your personal opinions about whether "Islamofascism" requires its own article. I resent consensuses that are formed in private by individual admins, and no longer understand the purpose of AfDs when admins who are on the losing side can imperiously announce that, in fact, their opinion is the consensus, the decision of the closing admin be damned. Babajobu 14:08, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

text: How, when and by whom was it decided to redirect Islamic fascism to Neofascism and religion? In light of that redirect, Mel Etitis's  argument that "We not only have the article to which it redirects, as well as List of political epithets, but also Islamic fascism and others," seems specious as Babajobu points out. FRS 18:43, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "How, when and by whom was it decided to redirect...?" The answer is here In any case, there's no reason to have both "Islamofascism" and "Islamic Fascism". They should obviously be merged together or into Neofascism and religion. --Lee Hunter 19:21, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  But then you were the one that kept opposing the "conflation" of "Islamofascism" with Muftism in the 1940s. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you keep them separate, or you keep them together. Take your pick. Klonimus 19:29, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure that I understand your point. The old Islamic Fascism and Islamofascism articles covered exactly the same ground (actually Islamic Fascism was nothing more than an abbreviated version of Islamofascism). In WP two identical articles are typically merged. The Grand Mufti did not belong in either article. --Lee Hunter 20:14, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  I think it makes perfect sense to redirect Islamic fascism to Neofascism and religion, but that "Islamofascism" as a distinct term which has recently and rapidly become notable needs its own article. Babajobu 19:37, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hmmm...actually, tkae that back. I'm not sure where Islamic fascism should redirect. Babajobu 19:41, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect issue 

message: The increased level of hostility on this talk page is a pretty good indication of why this page was redirected. By moving the discussion to Neofascism and religion the larger pool providing peer pressure has resulted in better edits, fewer revert wars, and much less naked antagonism. This page and others like it are a magnet for hyperbolic edit wars on multiple sides of the issue. Overt religious bigotry quickly appears. Wikipedia deserves better.  It is best served by keeping the redirect to Neofascism and religion.  I used to have a large pet iguana, more than five feet long.  When it got angry it puffed up its throat sack and made growling noises. For some reason this page reminds me of that iguana, a primitive beast. We aspire to a more civilized form of discourse here.--Cberlet 20:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No it just means that the article needs to stay on this page. Sorry but I do not buy into your logic"--CltFn 22:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Chip, I entirely disagree, and Just because you happen to have admin support behind your stance does not make it right. Islamofascism is distinct from "Neofascism" which has become a Politically correct soup, where a small group of self appointed guardians defend orthodoxy. When the president uses this neologism to refer to specfic concept, it deserves it's own article. Klonimus 02:22, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'd like to take a moment to further extend the iguana analogy. Cberlet, did you replace your five-foot iguana with a redirect to a Cocker Spaniel? No, you probably kept the iguana. There is room for all of God's creatures in the earthly menagerie, even giant iguanas that puff out their throats and make scary noises. So, too, is there room for all notable topics in Wikipedia, even contentious ones. To banish this topic because of its contentiousness would be equivalent to exterminating iguanas because of their pouches and growls. And that, I hope we can all agree, would be an atrocity. So case closed. "Islamofascism" stays. Babajobu 03:59, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Looking over this talk page, I still think my extension of the iguana analogy was the most insightful and rhetorically devastating remark to date. Babajobu 14:41, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Constructive Courtesy or Flame Wars? 

message: I have posted a notice why I have unprotected this page and reverted the redirect. Any interested parties might want to comment there further. 
While I'm about it, may I personally state that I find the term "Islamofascist" repugnant, unintelligent, abusive, derogatory and (for emphasis) idiotic. - Ta bu shi da yu 09:15, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:AN/I]] 

message: Provide one example, please, of an Islamic activist, anywhere on earth, who promotes corporatism.
Failure to provide an example can mean only one of the following things:
* a. Person advocating the necessity of this article is unclear on the concept "fascist"
* b. Person advocating the necessity of this article is eager to find some reason to slander the faith system of one billion people.
* c. Both a and b, above.
Cheers, BrandonYusufToropov 19:11, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: BYT, you seemed to have missed an enourmous amount of disucusiion that you were involved in. I'll put this in Bold, so that it's easy for you to read Islamofascism, shares the totaltarian aspects of fascism, not all aspects of fascism. It's not a one to one relationship. Klonimus 19:29, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The supposed historical inaccuracy of the analogy is irrelevant to whether the article should be deleted.  Otherwise Great Satan and Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy and countless other articles named after concepts with which many people disagree or find distasteful would have to be deleted.  FRS 19:40, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Great Satan effectively rebuts the notion that the term is accurate in the real world, by means of a single powerful quote from Colin Powell. Not sure why you picked this example, but I suppose you know what you're doing. Presumably you're saying that, by overlooking the factual red light we're running by equating Islam with fascism, you believe we should follow that article's example by debunking the notion that there is any such thing as Islamofascism? Just want to clarify. BrandonYusufToropov 19:50, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't believe we're running a factual red light, because I don't think the article, or even the article's title standing alone, "equates Islam (the religion) with fascism" and I've never heard of anyone using that word to imply that equation.  Probably the word means different things to different speakers (and listeners) and the article should explore those differences, including whatever historical inaccuracies are inherent in using the word "fascist" in conjunction with certain present day self-styled-as-Islamic political regimes or movements that some English speaking commentators also consider fascistic.  BTW, my dictionary defines "fascism" as a "political movement or regime that exalts nation and race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation and forcible suppression of oppositions."  The definition says nothing about corporatism and arguably fits, for example, the old Taliban regime and current Iran government pretty well.  FRS 20:09, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hard to believe, I know, but you and I may just disagree on whether or not we're running a factual red light here. Also, with regard to your dictionary research -- this is an encyclopedia. You may want to read Fascism. BrandonYusufToropov 20:16, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  BYT, you remind me of a trafic officer on a freeway handing out tickets for parking in a handicapped spaces. No one else besides you is insisting on such a level of formalism inregards to fascism. As I and others have pointed out, it's not a one to one relationship and people are using fascism as shorthand for totalitarianism. Klonimus 20:35, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: People are certainly using fascism, but how and to what end remains a matter of dispute. BTW, K, I never got your reply as to whether your fixation on Nazi imagery -- which you've continued here today -- justifies Mel's description of you as a "hate filled" Islamophobe. (Imagine someone posting Nazi images to articles relating to Christianity.) A propos of which, I meant to mention: Your quibbling on the qualifying term "hate" is becoming a little eerie, K. Do you mean to suggest you're the kind of Islamophobe who's just out to spread the love? BrandonYusufToropov 21:05, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's relavent, some other people don't. I accept the concensus even though I don't exactly agree with it. If mentioning the truth of Mufti's involvement with the Nazi's is "hateful", then I think the word has lost any meaning at all. I don't know what an "Islamophobe" is and neither does the relavent wikipedia article. I'm not afraid of Islam, so I don't think I'm at all "Islamophobic". My only goal on wikipedia is to make it more encyclopedic by including all material information. Klonimus 02:08, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well that is what Klonimus does. He goes around adding anti-Islamic sections and links to articles. Now that he is pushing for this page to be recreated, he wants to add any bit of criticism he can and then complain when it gets reverted. --a.n.o.n.y.m   t 21:49, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, sound like the mirror image of what you guys are doing, removing any bit of criticism you can and then complaining about it when it gets reverted. The problem is that only one direction leads to an encyclopedia. Klonimus 02:08, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Why this page should be deleted as soon as possible

message: Okies, I just finnished alot of work folding in the criticism of the old article into a new article. I hope everyone likes it, and we can gradually move towards a concensus. 
There is a criticism section which can be filled out by wikipedia's expert panel of critics of Islamofascism. Let's try to keep this civil and focus on being encyclopedic.  Klonimus 20:30, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't believe you're calling this a "reference" version. Once again you've inserted the ridiculous WWII section and you've removed Juan Cole and Mark DeVine from the academics section. You've taken the critical quotes out of the "public discourse" section which implies that there's only one side to the discourse. It totally doesn't work for me. --Lee Hunter 20:41, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Read what I wrote again. By moving them out of the Public Discourse section you are implying that the discourse entirely consists of people who believe the term has value. Some discourse. If you're going to keep the blandly neutral heading "public discourse" you need both sides otherwise it should be labelled more accurately - perhaps  "Use by Neocon Propagandists." --Lee Hunter 20:51, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Lee, your obviously too fired up to reason with at the moment. Go outside and enjoy the flowers.Klonimus 20:59, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As I understand the article's organization, the section "Examples of use in public discourse" shows how the term is used as a label.  Those who are critical of the term itself, of course, do not use it in public discourse, except to explain why they think the term should be expunged.  Such explanation belongs in the "criticisms" section.  IOW, I agree wtih Klonimus.  FRS 21:09, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Reference version 

message: I'm impressed that rather than engaging with other editors, BYT just reverts their work on the spot. If the Mufti makes BYT so uncomfortable, he could have just commented it out. But instead he chooses to revert, which implies that he dimisses all of the effort and work done so far. I think that's kind of rude, and not in keeping with principals of dawah which require muslims to have good manners to all people at all times. 
I'm also interested by why the verifiable meeting of the mufti with Hitler makes him so uncomfortable. The Mufti did meet with hitler, and did have influence on Islamist movmements in 1930s-1950s. This relationship makes me uncomfortable, but probably not for the same reasons as BYT.
Klonimus 21:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's certainly not just BYT who has a problem with it. Do we really have to revisit the Mufti thing again? Didn't we go over this ad nauseum earlier this year? If you're truly interested in knowing why people don't think this belongs here, why don't you just reread the talk page archive? The Mufti is only one of many relatively minor figures throughout the Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Asia who were courted by the Germans or Japanese during WWII. Some were Catholic, some were eastern Orthodox, some were Hindu, some were Buddhist, and, wouldn't you know it, some were Muslim. But religion had absolutely nothing to do with it. These were people who saw an opportunity to further their various agendas - in the Mufti's case, the political status of Palestine (and yes, his hatred for Jews). Citing it as an example of "islamofascism" is simply twisting history to fit rhetoric.  --Lee Hunter 21:24, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: On this, of course, we agree completely, Lee. Only wish to point out that the campaign to include this term as a separate article in WP is itself an example of "twisting history to fit rhetoric," and I cite as evidence for this suggestion K's obsessive insistence on the article for many months, as well as his surrealistically unbalanced edits here.BrandonYusufToropov 21:53, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: BYT I really doubt it, really I do. In the context of Islamic personalities involved with WWII, the mufti is a huge figure. I personally gave up on this article ever being restored to wikipedia. But now that it has been. I'm going to do my part to make it FAC. Klonimus 22:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm gonnna vote with Lee Hunter and SlimVirgin on this one.  I don't think the WWII connection (which I assume is documented elsewhere on WP) has a significant connection with how the modern word/neologism is used.  FRS 21:32, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am also voting against that section, and if possible for a redirect as I said before. Btw Klonimus, when you make major edits to an article and tag it with an inuse tag, that means that you are open to the chance of people reverting. --a.n.o.n.y.m   t 21:45, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  You might want to brush up on reading comprehension. That involved several major changes from the version I started with. You, BYT, and Lee all need to learn about [[[close reading]]. Your passion blinds you anything related to this article. Klonimus 01:23, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  Not while I'm editing it. (that would be a major violation of wikimanners. And I assume that you would never do such a thing.) Anyways BYT, still looks dumb for reverting instead of just commenting out what he doesn't like. If the concensus is that the extant section on the Mufti's involvment with Nazi's is not relavent, then I think I think I can defer to that as long as we have an Islam and WWII article at some point in the future. Klonimus 22:04, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually you were already done or were you lying when you said this? --a.n.o.n.y.m   t 22:17, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  I agree that the mufti has little to do with Islamofascism as the term is currently understood. I also think this article is on its way to being good, but is rife with small but irritating grammatical and spelling errors, and some redundancies. I'd fix them, but I don't want to be in the middle of a revert war. Is this article at all settled? IronDuke 21:54, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  No. Klonimus 22:04, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  BYT's instareverts 

message: I think the article at this moment is as good as it's been. It's very well-sourced, and the term is presented as just that, a term/concept that is used by some political commentators and now also by George Bush, without speaking to whether the term has an objectively real referent. I think this is exactly how the article must be written, a la Vast right-wing conspiracy, The Great Satan, et cetera. A couple comments: Slim has moved the Juan Cole quote from the "criticisms" section to the lead, which I think is fine. However, it means there are now several more examples of "uses" of the term than of "criticisms" of the term in those specific sections. We should probably add a critical quote or two to the criticisms section. Also, I think we should be strict about all additions to the article being sourced, and being identified as the view of that source rather than plain truth. Nobody agrees on anything here. All we can do is catalogue the views that are out there, and weave it into a narrative to whatever extent that can be done. Babajobu 03:08, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree about the importance of sources, Baba, and also that they should be mainstream sources, and not extremist websites. I also agree that the criticism section needs to be improved. I moved the Juan Cole quote up for the sake of balance, and in order to have an intro that gives a decent overview of the subject. You're right about no one agreeing: Nick Cohen, who I've quoted in the pro-use-of-the-term section has said elsewhere that he doesn't particularly like the term, so I'm going to try to find that and add it to the criticism section — as an example of someone disagreeing with himself. ;-) SlimVirgin (talk) 05:24, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources, sources, sources

message: Klonimus, there's no need to point out that Juan Cole is writing on his blog. We either regard it as a credible source and use it without comment, or we don't and therefore shouldn't use it at all. Here's what Wikipedia:Verifiability#Dubious_sources says about blogs: "Personal websites and blogs are not acceptable as sources, except on the rare occasion that a well-known person, or a known professional journalist or researcher in a relevant field, has set up such a website." As an academic historian, I would say he counts as a "known ... researcher in a relevant field ..." and in addition, his blog is a well known one. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:23, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I'm just not sure Jaun's blog is all that notable even if they do support the POV of some editors. Think back to when Cristopher Hitchen's was debating George Galloway. Galloway started to cite Juan Cole, and Hitchen's dismissed Jaun as not being remotely credible, and impressive for galloway he conceded the point and moved on. Same thing should be done here. Klonimus 17:06, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see why he wouldn't be included as credible.  Credible isn't neutral... I would surely not use him as a neutral source but he is a piece of the puzzle of those weighing in on what is Islamic fascism.  I mean, none of the sources here are really neutral since it is all partisan (just like the wikipedia community is in the debate about this article).  So, if he's not credible then I would fail to see why Bush is credible when he mentions it.  I'm not sure of the context of the Hitchens / Galloway debate but you'd have to show how it was directly relevant.  If they were quoting Cole saying that he was factually enlightened would be different from saying his opinion was notable. gren グレン 00:32, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Blogs as sources

message: Nine hours and 40 edits ago I proposed the following introductory sentence that survived for about 20 minutes:
:"The term "Islamofascism" is a controversial, recently coined term, sometimes denigrated as a political epithet, that refers to some totalitarian manifestations of the broader movement of Islamism which resemble fascism."
:In response SV asked: "FRS, do you have a source for your change to the intro, viz. that the word refers to "some totalitarian manifestations of the broader movement of Islamism which resemble fascism," as opposed to Islamism per se?"
::Answer: Islamism (and Islamist which, fbow, redirects to Islamism), is said by WP to include such political movements as Wahabbism, a dominant force in Saudi Arabia, with which the Bush administration maintains good relations.  Accordingly, President Bush, at least, does not seem to include all of "Islamism" when using the term Islamofascism.  Outside the wikipediverse, I assume that Islamism, like Zionism, includes diverse meanings to different people and some of the meanings are not objectionable to those who use the term Islamfascism.
:Babajobu remarked: ..."I don't think to describe "Islamofascism" as an epithet is to denigrate the term itself. Most users of the term are disgusted by the movements they describe. I think it is used as an epithet, though an epithet the users believe is accurate."
::Response: I don't object to calling "Islamofascism" an "epithet" in the dictionary sense of "a characterizing word or phrase ...occuring in place of the name of a person or thing."  My problem is that presently political epithet links to a list of: "pejorative political epithets; that is, words or phrases used to mock or insult certain political views and their supporters."  Nothing in the use of the term "Islamofascism" by the speakers quoted in the article, shows they intend to mock or insult Islamic people, or even many of those who could be described as proponents of Islamism.  Rather, it appears to be a shorthand way of describing "those who, while calling themselves Muslim, engage in a type of political conduct and violence that resembles Fascism."
Accordingly, I still prefer an introduction along the following lines:
:"Islamofascism is a controversial neologism coined in the 1990's, regarded by some as a political epithet, that refers to certain manifestations of the broader movement of Islamism which resemble fascism."FRS 19:13, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You'd still need a credible source, FRS, and not another WP article, because we can't use WP as a source for WP. The source would have to say that, when people use the term Islamofascism, they are referring to particular manifestations of Islamism, and not to Islamism as a whole. The current criticism section says something like that, or it did when I last looked (it's getting so that I'm almost afraid to look at the page), but it's entirely unsourced and should be removed. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:28, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introductory sentence 

message: In the interest of accuracy, I removed a small sentence at the very end of the article that stated that the 'fascism' half of Islamofascism may be a misnomer, since it has traditionally referred to a merger of corporations and the state. That's incorrect. Wikipedia's own entry for fascism explains at length how it's just not that simple, and that since World War II, the de facto definition for millions - probably even billions - of people is that it's simply synonymous with extreme totalitarianism and authoritarianism. wikipediatrix 18:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  fascism definition, and the lack thereof 

message: Somewhere in yesterday's flurry of edits the following was taken out:
::Perhaps it was because the text in question is reprehensible, partisan hate speech worthy of David Duke and his ilk. BrandonYusufToropov 18:15, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: uh, could you be a little more precise?  FRS 18:28, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Now, BYT tell us what really feel. Klonimus 05:46, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Application of the term section 

message: The exact definition of the term Islamofascsism is nebulous and flexible. A general theme is that Islamofascsism refers to political movements that seek to impose by violence or retain through undemocratic means governments aimed at perpetuating elements of Islamic fundamentalism.
Some users of the term seem to include the notion that Islamofascism
* Promotes the establisment of a global unitary Islamic nation-state under the totalitarian control of Islamic religious authorities enforcing Sharia law.
* Proposes the existance of an eternal violent conflict between muslims and infidels, that will end with the eventual victory of muslims over the infidels.
* Accepts and promotes terrorism and violence to further their goals.
* Advocates a philosophy of trotskyist entryism to convert/subvert non-Islamic societies from within
:I don't know what objections are made against this passage.  IMO, there should be some synthesis/analyis of the uses of the term, and the above is a pretty good start.  Otherwise, the article is just a battle of soundbites. FRS 18:06, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I took it out because it perpetuates the canard that these points somehow support the "fascism " bit of Islamofascism. Trotskyist entryism? --Lee Hunter 18:22, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well if it's a canard, Lee, may I ask what the f@#$%^& it's doing as an article here? BrandonYusufToropov 18:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  BYT, after all this talk, how can it still escape your understanding that even "canards" can be covered in an encyclopedia, because writing an article on a concept does not amount to or require confirmation of that topic? Vast right-wing conspiracy, Great Satan, et cetera! This is so basic and has been explained to you so many times! Why do you still not get it? Babajobu 18:53, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Don't bother hyperventilating for my sake. Dots, Babajobu, and connections thereto. That's what I would like to see from you at this point in our relationship. See above. Or perhaps explain your silence. BrandonYusufToropov 19:09, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  BYT, our relationship has already flowered beyond my wild expectations. At this point, anything more is cream. I responded above about a half an hour ago, if you are referring to your form. Well, there is one more thing I would like from our relationship: for you to acknowledge that the existence of a Wikipedia article on a political concept does not amount to endorsement of that concept. After all we've been through, surely you can do this for me. Babajobu 19:15, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

text: so you believe its unecessary to provide an analysis of what those who use the term mean by it.  (Note, btw, that although I contributed to the editing of the above passage, I didn't originate it and do not necessarily endorse every part of it--I just think its a good starting point) FRS 18:34, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Other than the "totalitarian" thing which is covered elsewhere in the article there's nothing here. It's a bunch of concepts and terms that don't really have a meaning in this context. What does wanting sharia law have to do with fascism? What on earth does "trotskyist entryism" have to do with this subject? What does terrorism or violence have to do with fascism? Ghengis Khan was a violent, totalitarian ruler who tried to take over the world but he wasn't a fascist. Stalin was a violent, totalitarian ruler who tried to take over the world but he wasn't a fascist. Putting these points in the article is just more pseudo-content, stuff that's added to try and make it look substantial but doesn't actually say anything meaningful.  --Lee Hunter 18:49, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Excellent word "brainbarf" duly noted and filed away for future use. Babajobu 06:53, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Application of the term

message: Striver, you know a great deal about Islam and are a valuable and respected contributor to Wikipedia. However, your edits too often involve faulty formatting and glaring grammatical errors--it is especially worrying when these edits are to the lead paragraph of an article. Your last edit read: "Other view its use as  empty and hysterical propaganda, short of a direct insult." There shouldn't be two spaces before "empty". The subject "other" should be plural or the sentence is incoherent and reads terribly. If you are not a native speaker of English then I apologize: in that case, your English is so good that I assumed you were a native speaker and were just being a little lazy. But if you are a native speaker, please put in the extra few moments required to make sure your edits are grammatically sound. Thanks, Babajobu 07:58, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I thank you for your kind words, and ill try to improve. English is not my first language, but i have improved a lot since i started here some while ago. I actualy get a bit embaraced when i read my older texts. I will correct what you mentioned, however, i did not see any argumantation for the text to be changed. As it is clear from  the quotes in the article, the phrase "Others view its use as empty and hysterical propaganda, short of a direct insult." is accurate. Peace! --Striver 08:12, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ah, okay. In that case, your English is very good. As regards the content, I think "empty and hysterical propaganda" is extremely emotive and not typical of the way encyclopedias are written. It is as if the sentence said "Islamofascism is a term used by people who think some Islamic movements are full of crazy, violent fascists". Perhaps some of them do think that, but we wouldn't describe it this way in an encyclopedia. Regardless, I'll leave it as you've written it, though I don't think it will survive. Babajobu 08:31, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks again :) Your are right, its is to emotive. Ill try to tone it down a bit. --Striver 09:09, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia and professionalism

message: Okay, supposedly what we've established so far is that ...
* ONE: The article Islamofascism doesn't have to prove adoption of, or any actual link between, actual real-world fascist ideology and the ideologies of Islamic groups who are labeled with this term, because ...
* TWO: What really matters is whether the term has gained a certain "threshold" of usage popularity, which this term allegedly has.
And ...
* THREE: The fact that Islamofascism is a patently offensive pejorative is irrelevant, because ...
* FOUR: What really matters is not the sensitivities one offends by legitimizing a term through creating and sustaining an article like this, but rather the important photorealistic effect that arises from categorizing offensive words and making sure they show up on Google searches as WP articles. "That's our JOB here at WP," people are basically telling me. "It's ugly, but someone's got to do it." (Side note: I could pause to ask where one is to find the stand-alone articles on phrases like niggerlover and pussy-whipped, but let's save that for another discussion.) 
So. I have a four-part request for anyone who signs on in agreement, more or less, with the four points above.
* A: Read this list of citations: 
* B: Go to this link  and revert User:SlimVirgin's edit, thereby recreating Judeofascism (term). Or, alternatively (and this is what I really, really hope you'll do), you can ...
* C: Vote for Islamofascism's deletion here: .  If for some reason you choose to do neither B) nor C) above, then please
* D: Admit unambiguously that you are a hypocrite. BrandonYusufToropov 12:22, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I vote for 'B'.  Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. FRS 18:47, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I vote E for BrandonYusufToropov taking some Xanax, and not being so hysterical.  Klonimus 23:03, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I'm begging everyone here: Skip B and D, opt for C 

message: :::Can we please move the discussion of the merits of Judeofascism and Christofascism to their respective talk pages? It's clearly beyond the scope of this page. Thanks. --Lee Hunter 19:29, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Move this discussion elsewhere?

message: I highly recommend a read of the September 13, 2003, NYT article by this name written by Alexander Stille. 
It quotes George Orwell as saying a few years after WWII:  "the word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies 'something not desirable."
It notes that Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi of Italy complained, essentially, that “islamofascism,” as a description of, for example Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban gives a bad name to (Italian, 1930’s-1940’s) fascists, who were “more benign.”
It provides the views of a number of academics on the historical (in)accuracy of using “fascism” as a descriptor for any form of Islamism, even the radical or militant types associated with bin Laden or the present regime in Iran.  
Among the authorities cited:
:Paul Berman
:Renzo De Felice
:Emilio Gentile
:Sheldon Wolin
:Robert Paxton, an emeritus professor of history at Columbia University and the author of (a forthcoming book called) "Fascism in Action
:Roxanne Euben, a professor of political science at Wellesley College
:Victoria De Grazia, a professor of European history at Columbia
:Abbott Gleason, a historian at Brown University
According to Stille, De Felice, for example, considers  it wrong to apply the term Fascist to “anything but the movement founded in Italy by Mussolini in 1919, which collapsed at the end of World War II.” 
Gentile is said to have defined Fascism as: "A mass movement, that combines different classes but is prevalently of the middle classes, which sees itself as having a mission of national regeneration, is in a state of war with its adversaries and seeks a monopoly of power by using terror, parliamentary tactics and compromise to create a new regime, destroying democracy."
“Other characteristics on most scholars' checklists: the rejection of both liberalism and socialism; the primacy of the nation over the rights of the individual; the demonization of the nation's enemies; the elimination of dissent and the creation of a single-party state; the dominant role of a charismatic leader; the appeal to emotion and myth rather than reason; the glorification of violence on behalf of a national cause; the mobilization and militarization of civil society; an expansionist foreign policy intended to promote national greatness.”
Paxton is said to insist that "Fascism is a malady of failed democracies," and "There can be no authentic fascism before democracy, or outside societies whose citizens are deeply engaged in mass politics."
Euben is quoted:  "Fascism is nationalistic and Islamicism is hostile to nationalism," and "Fundamentalism is a transnational movement that is appealing to believers of all nations and races across national boundaries. There is no idea of racial purity as in Nazism. Islamicists have very little idea of the state. It is a religious movement, while Fascism in Europe was a secular movement. So if it's not what we really think of as nationalism, and if it's not really like what we think of as Fascist, why use these terms?"
De Grazia: "What was so striking about the proclamations of Osama bin Laden after Sept. 11," she said, "is that they were so different from anything we are familiar with. He gave these long rants which were highly spiritual and which completely lacked the Western Machiavellian structure we are used to."
De Grazia also notes that critics use the term Fascism  to attack present day policies and personalities far removed both historic Fascism and Islam, including U.S. President Bush’s own policies "The fact that people are using the term fascist to refer to such extremely different phenomena tells you that it has lost most of its descriptive power," she said. "I think the problem is that we are dealing with all sorts of new, strange political phenomena -- Osama bin Laden, Hindu nationalism in India, the Le Pen phenomenon in France, Silvio Berlusconi in Italy, Bush's doctrine of pre-emptive force -- and we don't have the right words to describe these things."
Gleason, while admitting that he has “used the analogy with the Fascist era out of a desire to provoke,” adds  "The word fascist is so overloaded that it's a bad term for any aspect of contemporary reality," but "I am worried that we are going through a kind of anti-liberal revolt, belief in a very strong state, a contempt for pluralism, for a 'soft' welfare state and a sense that we cannot afford certain freedoms."  He added, "It might have some shock value that can help you see things that our usual vocabulary can prevent you from seeing."  --FRS 18:44, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: An excellent contribution to this discussion. Thanks. --Lee Hunter 18:51, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

text: A bunch of professor's at Columbia University trying to explain away Islamofascism? LOL. Anyways these are better sources than Joe Sobran the holocaust "stipulator". Klonimus 00:30, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly! Just another crowd of distinguished professor emeritus from leading universities around the world who have spent their lives writing books about fascism. What the hell would they know? --Lee Hunter 01:28, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Columbia's MELAC program has been terribly discreditied, and being a giant festering abcess of leftism and anti-americanism. It got so bad that university's president commisioned a commitee of inquiry about it , because many alumni were withholding donations. Go learn about it at "Columbia Unbecoming" and here as well Klonimus 04:26, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Lovely red herring you've produced. There are EIGHT professors mentioned above, only TWO of whom are from Columbia and NEITHER of those two (as far as I can tell) have anything to do with MELAC. Paxton is actually retired. Columbia is a huge university with over 3,000 faculty members. I hardly think the entire institution has been discredited. So, uh, what was your point again? --Lee Hunter 04:52, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Apart from Berlusconi, is there anything else in the article specifically about the term "Islamofascism"? It seems more about the general use of fascist as an epithet. Babajobu 04:59, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oops, question retracted, I missed a couple comments up there. Babajobu 05:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Well for one thing, Lee, it looks very much to me like they would all be inclined to regard this article's very existence as, well, something of a bad joke. But let's not focus on the practical implications of that fact too closely. Apparently there are thugs to keep happy. BrandonYusufToropov 01:55, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: BYT, you need to read up on WP:AGF and WP:NPA Klonimus 04:48, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  I think Ta_Bu's comments on the AfD page are a good take-home message for anyone concerned about the real-world consequences of having this article. Would you rather that people googling "Islamofascism" find an article by Mark Steyn in the Telegraph saying Islamofascists are brutal-savage-crazy and the biggest threat to humanity since Hitler? Or would you like them to find a Wikipedia article that discusses "Islamofascism" as a term, and includes the view that it is offensive propaganda? Babajobu 03:58, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Except for the fact that Mark Steyn is right about Islamofascism, I agree with everything you said Babajobu. Klonimus 04:26, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm just saying that were Wikipedia to institute a blasphemy policy to protect the faithful (of any confession) from the thoughts of infidels, this would only leave the field to the infidels. Wikipedia articles will at least also present the opposing viewpoint. Babajobu 04:44, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

text: For disambig reasons! Do you mean the Internet slang? If guys from Columbia are trying to explain that away, than it's a good thing and definitely not Lands of Lore. Any objective comment?! --Cheers-- Svest 00:51, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Latest Obscenity Has Seven Letters 

message: Klonimus, I'm going to remove the trolling tag. Brandon has certainly been very upset, and the conversation has run in mind-numbingly repetitious circles, but I think all comments to the page have been in good faith. Normally a topic like this would attract trolling, which is why I think it's a shame to tag the page as trolled when I really don't think that it has been. Babajobu 05:13, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok if you say so. Still, I think BYT is trolling at this point, trying to play the poor aggrieved muslim persecuted by an evil anti-islamic cabal. A varient on the "cry for help" troll. There is really just too much intentional psychodrama here, for any of this to be taken seriously. Klonimus 05:30, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Trolling template

message: You are evidently engaging in a minor edit war, and I feel that my contributions are getting caught in the crossfire, since each time you guys revert to your own version, my contributions with insights, comparisons and perspectives (opposing points of view) manage to disappear. Let's try to work out a good explanation of this word and the phenomenon it seeks to cover. Clearly, the word exists, as does the phenomenon. My question is: Is there an alternative accurate word that is used as a self-designation and not a political slur? See also Talk:Apartheid wall for a discussion of the difference. Thanks in advance for trying to see both sides of things. --Big Adamsky 16:56, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Islamism is a term that isn't as controversial, but it doesn't have the same meaning... Islamofascism is not just a term, and even by having this article at "(term)" it's implying that "Fascism in Islam does not/can not exist" --Chaosfeary (talk) 17:02, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Users [[user:Yuber|Yuber]] and [[user:Chaosfeary|Chaosfeary]]: Please stop eradicating useful paragraphs

message: Guys, people are inserting lots of material with no sources whatsoever. This is a perfect recipe for endless edit wars. Please ONLY insert material that is carefully, thoroughly sourced, even if you think that what you are adding is the simplest truth that only a liar or an idiot could deny. This topic is very controversial, and not everyone will agree with what you add. Good sources will slow down the pace of edit wars. Thanks. Babajobu 05:01, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: SOURCES!

message: This article should start with a disambig explaning that it is about the use of the term Islamofacism and that discusion of the relation between Islam and Facism can be found at Neofascism and religion#Islam. It was on the condition that this article covers the term were as the other covers the general discusion that many people voted to keep this article rather then just have it redirect.--JK the unwise 15:18, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and I have been industriously moving paragraphs back and forth to abide by the (annoying) will of the majority.  Democratic process is so irritating when one is on the losing side.  :-)  --Cberlet 18:56, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thumbs up--JK the unwise 11:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Thumbs down. Another wikipedia elitist who find's the concensus to keep  Islamofascism "annoying". Klonimus 03:29, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  disambig