Talk:Pen (enclosure)

message: 203.87.79.130 (talk) 23:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And doesn't "paddock" have a different meaning in Au as well?  (here, it is the east coast way of saying "corral")  In some subcultures in the western US, a "pen" can also be a riding arena.  While you are at it, review agricultural fencing and horse care, which has a section on fences too. If nothing else, adding wikilinks to a "see also" section is always a good idea so that people know what else is out there. Ah, language... I never object to cleanup and eliminating redundancy.  Montanabw(talk) 18:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We won't tell about electric fences!  (grin).  Rubber fence went in and out in the states, apparently horses eat at it and ingest rubber and anything else that was worked into the rubber (particularly metal bits if, made from recycled tires! ":-O  ).  The vinyl variety is taking over here now, similarly safe, just haven't gotten a good photo of any. Montanabw(talk) 00:33, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: comments from 2007

message: OK, let's talk terminology and sizes. I will give you Western USA, you can plug in Aussie, anyone else can weigh in, and we will figure this out:
USA:
*Pen: Multiple meanings: 1)  Generic small enclosure--when you don't know what to call it, it's a "pen."  2) Most common:  Very small enclosure, as in goat pen, sheep pen.  In essence, just about big enough to hold one or two animals 3)  New in the last ten years (nationally at least, may have been regional before this) western riding arenas, i.e. "the show pen"  4) Round pen, a round corral 40 to 70 feet in diameter, used in horse training 5)  Sometimes describes a group of multiple enclosures, even quite large ones, i.e. "Stock pens" as at a cattle feedlot that can hold dozens of animals in close quarters. Always should be an enclosure with a very sturdy fence for the animal to be securely contained.  Sometimes implies that metal pipe is used as fencing material, but can be a wood enclosure.
*Corral:  Western USA enclosure, usually wood fence, usually round rails, (though sometimes plank fenced enclosures are also called corrals, especially if small and very sturdy, not often used to describe a pipe enclosure) varies from about 40 feet square (or round) to maybe 150-200 feet square.  Often a higher fence than a pen or a paddock.  Term seldom used outside the western states. "Corral" implies an enclosure larger than a "pen" in most cases.  Usually holds horses or cattle. 
*Paddock:  Usually describes an enclosure of wood planks rather than rails, also used to describe the saddling area at a racetrack. Almost exclusively used to describe a horse enclosure, rarely if ever an enclosure for any other animal.  Generally ranges from around 50 x 100 feet up to perhaps an acre or so, depending on the part of the country and the use.  Primarily considered an area for an animal to exercise, not to graze (though some paddocks may have grass, it's mostly for entertainment rather than nutrition)  Implies that it is not a riding arena, but rather an exercise area.
*Arena:  usually rectangular-shaped, 50' x 90' about the minimum, used primarily for riding or driving horses.  Good competition arenas start at about 100 x 200 feet, often a lot bigger.
*Pasture:  Implies that, whatever the size, has grass for grazing, at least for part-time nutrition.  Probably minimum size of one acre up to hundreds of acres, starts at whatever is bigger than a paddock in a particular part of the country. Fences less sturdy than for pens, paddocks or corrals as a rule. An area like this might also be called a field, but "field" usually implies a crop has been planted--wheat field, hay field, etc.
A "yard" is what goes around a residential house where the kids have their swingset and play.  The term "stockyards" implies an entire feedlot, usually not used in the singular form.  Stockyards are made up of many large corrals or stock pens for the animals...
Most horse books in the USA use "corral " and "paddock" interchangably...corral in the west or for western riders, and paddock in the east or for English and racing stables in any part of the country.
Clear as mud?? (grin)  Your turn!  Montanabw(talk) 07:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed on most of your comments. Below is pretty much what is the standard in Australia and NZ.
Paddock 
1.	A small enclosure or field (usually UK) of grassland. 
2.	An area where horses are saddled before a race. 
3.	Land, fenced or otherwise delimited which is most often part of a sheep or cattle property. It may have nothing to do with stock, ie it may be a fenced vegetation area etc.
long paddock
1.	(Australia) (colloquial) Stock routes and the sides of public roads viewed as a source of pasture for cattle, sheep, etc, in times of drought. 
Pasture - ground covered with grass or herbage, used or suitable for the grazing of livestock. In Australasia it usually refers to sown grasses and all or only part the area may be fenced temporarily or permanently.
pen (plural pens)
1.	A small enclosed area used to contain domesticated animals, especially sheep or cattle. 
Eg. There are two steers in the third pen.  A catching pen in a shearing shed or a forcing pen in a cattle yard.
Yard An enclosed area designated for a specific purpose, e.g. on farms, railways etc.
stockyard (plural stockyards)
1.	(US and Australasia) An enclosed yard, with pens or stables, where livestock is kept temporarily before being slaughtered, sold, or shipped. Eg. Cattle, horse and/or sheep yards. They may be elaborate structures or simple bush yards made from nearby trees etc.
Corral is not used here.
Sorry that this is pretty rough but I don't have more time now.
Cgoodwin (talk) 23:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh yeah, I forgot that we have rail yards to, just thinking ag uses.  We do occasionally use "stable yard," but borrowed directly from British usage, and only suggests a relatively small enclosed area around a stable, literally...  In the west, a pasture is sometimes native grass, sometimes "rangeland" is used interchangably for vast areas of open, native grass, lightly fenced pastureland.  Other than public lands such as BLM leases, most everything is fenced nowadays.  Say, check out agricultural fencing and electric fence, would you?  there is a USA and a UK perspective there, we need some Aussies to weigh in...! Montanabw(talk) 04:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that I will stay on this side of the equator, by the sound of the disputes over there. Until the National Parks took so much land there were huge tracts of unfenced, mountainous land used to run cattle. The cattle were simply turned back onto the owners land, but one made sure that there were regular brandings. The only completely fenced area was each owners horse paddock and a rough set of cattle yards.Cgoodwin (talk) 05:15, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah!  You are still in the "open range" period, my friend.  Give it another 50 years, you'll catch up!  All it will take is a little more scarcity of resources... LOL! :-D  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Montanabw (talk • contribs) 17:55, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sizes

message: Hey, a fairly long time ago I created List of corrals covering a number of U.S. historic corrals and corral sites.  But if "corral" is not a world-wide term, I think I'd rather it be moved/renamed to cover all individually notable modern or historic "animal enclosures" or "animal pens" or whatever would be a proper term, to include "kraals" in Africa and more.  And to serve as the list of notable examples corresponding to this Pen (enclosure) article (which itself should perhaps be renamed to be "livestock pens" or "livestock enclosures"?). I'd like the list restricted to the type of enclosures that hold horses and cattle, and not include tiny animal enclosures like ant farms or shoeboxes for gerbils, and exclude zoo cages, say.  And I think not include "paddocks" or "pastures" which provide significant grazing area. I'd like for it to include any notable rodeo show corrals, but I am not sure if there are any rodeo venues whose corral areas are specifically notable (like are any individual tennis courts notable, within venues such as Wimbledon?).  User:MB, User:Montanabw, User:Cgoodwin? --Doncram (talk) 04:43, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: And probably include any notable "paddocks" at race-courses per Merriam-Webster alt definitionU.: "especially : an enclosure where racehorses are saddled and paraded before a race". I recall going by one of those, at a notable U.S. race-course, which I think was not large, maybe 20 yards in diameter, and "corral-like" in my view.  Perhaps some of these are named things? --Doncram (talk) 04:58, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: List of notable livestock enclosures?