Talk:Mike Harris

message: There IS a button to post your signature when you make comments in this section.  If you do not wish to be identified, then your voice does not belong here.  Any unsigned comments should be deleted. --2dFx (talk) 04:01, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That figure hides the fact that Health care funding was cut massively early in the term, so much so that money had to be poured in to fix the problem. AndyL 13:56, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  SIGN YOUR POSTS 

message: Is his middle name really Dean?  I can't find a reference to this anywhere.  The initial is certainly "D.".
:Actually it appears to be "Deane," according to a Google search (while a search for Michael Dean Harris picks up this article and other websites that use it). Adam Bishop 20:51, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Michael Dean Harris 

message: Does anyone know what his titles and postnominals are?  If so, they should be added to his name on the first line of the article.  I assume he is "the honourable'" has at least one university degree, and might be a member of the Privy Council.  -Arctic.gnome 23:52, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: He doesn't have any university degrees, at least not one that he earned.  http://thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0010434 "...the university dropout who has been dismissed as a small-town golf pro..." 76.69.86.227 (talk) 02:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Titles 

message: It says, "In late 2003, he made a speech in Halifax which many believed was the unofficial launch of a campaign to lead the new Conservative Party of Canada. Within weeks, however, he unexpectedly announced his decision to drop out of the race."  How can one drop out of a race one never entered?  Srnec 21:57, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Candidate?

message: The article has changed significantly in its portrayal of Harris in the last few edits.  Although certain arguments for Harris' actions were added (improving the article), removal of several critisms and the introduction of typographical errors degrade the article.  I am reverting (because of the removal of content)—the contributor or others can make the additions again. —   UTSRelativity (Talk)  03:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conservative apologists 

message: I was the author of some of those changes (not the typos, I hope!). I am not a Harris supporter; I support some of his policies, and deplore others. I was, however, shocked at the one-sided nature of the previous article.
Harris was a controversial figure who invariably attracted intense support from some 35-40% of the electorate, and intense opposition from roughly the same number. It is a disservice to readers not to give them the benefit of both sides. For example, to start off by saying his policies involved "steep cuts to medicare" is completely inaccurate when the effect of his first term, and even more so of his second term, was a massive increase in health spending. In fact, even to say he was all about 'cuts' is questionable when in the end his term resulted in little or no reduction to the overall size of government spending (something criticized to this day by some conservatives).
The previous article's essential pattern was 'Harris cut this, and critics said...." Fair enough, but as you say it is important to understand his arguments and the context. Even language such as 'slashed' is questionable, when 'cut' or 'reduced' are clearly more neutral.
I didn't even touch some things that are trivial -- e.g., teachers booing him at an event in 1998 (!) -- but added material on developments that had a far larger impact on the province, such as the launch of Telehealth Ontario or changes to R&D programs. It's a sign of the lack of objectivity about Harris that 'Bearcat' quickly removed references to these major programs, and restored biased wording about labour unions and a host of other things.
The only criticisms I removed were things that were non-neutral, inaccurate or unverifiable (e.g.,"Many believe that this issue damaged the party's reputation for supporting "ordinary Ontarians"; OR "despite having campaigned against this in 1999" OR "new funding formula cripped school services"). In some cases, I also edited the article to put material on similar things together.
I stand by all my revisions, and have readily accepted wording proposed by others. I think the result is a picture that far more objective, accurate and in keeping with the spirit of Wikipedia.
:WHO are you?Freiherrin (talk) 07:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some balance, perhaps? 

message: I reconize that I made quite a few changes, and that some people may diagree. But if you look carefully, I think you'll find that pretty much everything I worked on was promoting a certain point of view, either directly or through weasel words. I have tried very hard to make things more neutral, and would appreciate a discussion of possible alterations rather than going for wholesale reverts. I also think this is an articles that could use a LOT of citations...I put in a few requests and will be attempting to fill them.Schrodingers Mongoose 21:34, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yet more balance 

message: Edited the reference to the Mandela and the Children event; it seemed to imply that teachers were booing with the student. In fact, our teachers were mortified and begged us to shut up. Carolynparrishfan 05:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Skydome incident 

message: Harris's government balanced the provincial budget, although its critics contend that cuts in taxes caused a drop in revenues, which in turn led to renewed budget deficits after Harris resigned.
I'm not sure exactly what this means.  You've identified a contention of Harris critics, and then quite definitively declared it a truth which "led to renewed budget deficits after Harris resigned."  
How long did it take after he resigned for the drop in tax revenues to cause a deficit?  If it was years, this would reflect poorly on any subsequent governments' handling of the finances, and not Mike Harris', would it not?  Mike Harris was leader for two terms, and, from your article, began with tax cuts; so, if there was no deficit, after Mike Harris' two whole terms in office with tax cuts, surely it was not the drop in revenues that would cause a future deficit, but rather the handling of the finances of subsequent goverments of Ontario, right?  
How large was the deficit?  If it was in the billions, and was discovered mere months after Mike Harris left office, then surely you're mistaken to claim that "Harris' government balanced the provincial budget".  Or, if the deficit was discovered years after Harris left office, then surely you're mistaken to proclaim the critics' contentions as truth.  In such a case, a future deficit would be the fault of subsequent governments.  
So, please let us know when the deficit was discovered.  And, please let us know how large it was.  
--Mark Alfred 05:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I think this may have to go...revenues didn't drop under Harris; they rose significantly. If no one can show otherwise, I will remove this later this week. Schrodingers Mongoose 03:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reference 3, which follows the passage about revenues, is a 198 page budget document.  Is it fair to ask for a page reference as well?   --Wanderer57 21:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  balanced budget, or deficit? 

message: My comment is about this sentence from the Leadership section:
"Before Harris, the Ontario PC leadership (typified by figures such as Bill Davis) was Red Tory in nature, being politically centrist and largely responsible for the elaborate welfare state that had been created in Ontario during the party's many decades in power."  (emphasis added)
The assertion that Ontario was an elaborate welfare state needs review.  It is a statement I would expect from someone on the far right of the Canadian political spectrum.  I think it's a long way off from neutral.  Wanderer57 18:44, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's accurate given the massive scope of these programs compared to the start of Davis's time in power, but probably not the best way of putting it. Blotto Adrift's change seems fine. Schrodingers Mongoose (talk) 05:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you.  Agreed.  Blotto Adrift's wording is a definite improvement.   Wanderer57 (talk) 15:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Apologies, I should have posted here first / as well.  Glad it's OK.  Blotto adrift (talk) 20:10, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elaborate welfare state? 

message: I am removing the following line:
Harris' legacy has been recently put into question at the close of a recent court case approved under his leadership, in which the Ontario government spent 8 years and $23.4 million in lawyer fees (Weirfoulds LLP) to lose 90% of the case and recovering very little cost. The case alleged bid rigging and fraud within the Ontario Real Estate Corp.
Reasons:
- Until there is some citation to support this, it is simply an assertion.
- "recently" has no basis because we have no idea when this "recent court case" occurred, or how long a time "recently" is.  We also don't know when the writer wrote this and whether it is stale dated.
- To say that Harris' "legacy" has been put into question by this single incident suggests that this was such a massive incident that it overshadows his career or term in office.  Actually, I'm a close follower of Ontario politics and have never heard of the incident.  So if it indeed happened, it did not overshadow his career or term.
- All governments have legal challenges made by them and against them, and they all involve legal fees.  So in that context this is small potatoes.  If it's verified, proven, and put in context, fine put it back in then, and in a better place in the article rather than as a summary (ie. final line) of his first term of office.
- How does one lose 90% of a case?  Either you "win", "lose", or there is a settlement.  Provide some sort of context or backup, or maybe provide relevant details.
- If the Ontario gov't spent 8 years on this case, and it was "approved" under his leadership, then clearly the case was resolved after Harris was no longer premier since he was only premier for less than 7 years. Which means that it continued under Ernie Eves and quite likely under Dalton McGuinty.  Since 1995 to 2003 (when McGuinty came in) is eight years, evidently McGuinty has his hands on it too since it's doubtful that Harris launched this on his first day in office.  It's 2009 now, nearly six years and two terms into the McGuinty gov't, so if it is "recent" then the majority of the money was probably spent by McGuinty!  Perhaps it is better placed in McGuinty's profile.  This hardly puts into question Harris' legacy.
- You simply can't throw around words like "fraud" with no basis, no citation, no explanation about who is accused of what, etc.  That gets you dangerously close to "slander".  To me, even if the "fraud" is not being blamed on Harris or the government, throwing around these words appear intended on tainting the subject of the article.
This is one example where perspective, objectivity, and citations are needed. 
--rightguy1 (talk) 00:56, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely right. I added tags to the page.The Invisible Man (talk) 22:21, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Perspective, objectivity, citations needed. 

message: Inserted the citations on a few unvalidated claims from a recently published legacy report and expose done by a reputable and peer-reviewed professional online politcal science journal. Nfjb (talk) 07:51, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updated Citations 

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