Talk:Chameria

message: The map shows that except Thesprotia, Preveza perfecture is also included in the teritory called cameria/tsiamouria. Except that the names of the towns in Greece are all in albanian (suppose the source is albanian), former map of the region were limited to Thesprotia, or parts of Thesprotia. It seems that the 'larger version' of the so region is a more recent fabrication. Here [] is a map that shows that during wwii, Balli Competar considered cameria/tsiamouria only Thesprotia. This agrees with many other historical ethnological maps. It seems that chams/tsamides may had fields (of their property) in Preveza region, but there are no clues that they lived in towns and villages in this region (except maybe Parga which is on the northest edge of Preveza perf.). The linked map above, I believe shows clearly the limits of the article's region. Nazi-friendly organizations had a more limited view about the region--Alexikoua (talk) 21:05, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Northern Epirus article has a similar map not based on any source. Yet that has not been proposed for deletion. On Wikipedia you can not use maps from a source outright(say something scanned) as that would violate copyright. Many editors make maps based on a source, giving a description. The current map is in line with geographical descriptions given by academic Baltsiotis who has done extensive work of Cham related topic matter.Resnjari (talk) 12:42, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Maps Again

message: Chameria is not (always) the same as Epirus in the 20th-21st century context.  Chameria is also not the same as Cham Albanians.  I resored a stub minus the Greek-Albanian polemics (which can remain at Epirus and Cham Albanians if preferred). LuiKhuntek 19:38, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Stub article restored

message: Should those links to ultranationalist Albanian sites be here??? Helladios 14:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: I reconfigured the article. We talk about a region, which in itself has no reason to exist, if it has no information about the Cahmeria issue and Cham Albanians. So I added summary of this articles in the main article. What do you think?balkanian (talk) 14:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  reconfiguration 

message: I reconfigured the article. We talk about a region, which in itself has no reason to exist, if it has no information about the Chameria issue and Cham Albanians. So I added summary of this articles in the main article. What do you think?balkanian (talk) 14:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  reconfiguration 

message: I suggest a better map is used.The current one seems like a piece of clothing splashed with blue and red paint(no offence to whoever made it) and doesn't clarify the geographic location of the region.Amenifus (talk) 10:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this seems more like it.Check if it's copyrighted though.Amenifus (talk) 08:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: There is no evidence that the Ottomans recognised a Cham area in the empire or a Cham region. There is not a simgle historical map representing a Cham area. - let alone an administrative region. Any proof to the contrary welcome. (By the way, there are many peoples across the world living in areas that held no official recognition whatsoever and no cartographic representation- including Greeks in parts of the Balkans and Anatolia, so any offense taken by the above comment is probably politically motivated).  Politis (talk)
:Why do you feel that "recognition" by some historical state, or representation in maps, are in any way fundamental criteria for the validity of treating the concepts? Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, one can find mentions like the following, in Finlay, History of the Greek Revolution, p.46: "The administrative divisions of Albania have varied at different periods of Othoman history, but the positions of Skodra, Berat, and Joannina, have rendered these cities the residence of pashas, to whom the rulers of the districts of Elbassan, Dukadjin, Delvino, and Tchamuria, have generally been subordinate." Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  BTW, it appears that "Tsamouria" is also used quite regularly in documents of the 1821 era, e.g. in Kolokotronis' memoirs.  Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

text:  Thanks for the potential references. Do you think that any region mentioned in any memoir or dispatch deserves its own article and a series of maps? (I am not disputing the existence of this article). I am just interested in Wikipedia as a medium for displaying, expanding, promoting or inventing national myths. Your question is valid; my curiosity is in the way such concepts are treated in wiki and the dynamic they generate in interpreting, re-prioretising and interpreting existing data, produced in the wider academic and published world. Politis (talk) 17:09, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Take part on the above discussion. I propose that this page be renamed Thesprotia (region), and be only one page, where Chameria and Vagenetia be used, only within their historical context.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I could not verify any of the sources claimed to support the notion that there is a concept of "Thesprotia", in the modern context, that goes south into Preveza. What do those sources say? – As for treating details of geography and history, I suggest that either Thesprotia or Chaameria are really too small units for a useful treatment. We need history treated in larger units. Epirus can have a useful history section that covers all these. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:13, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Proof

message: Chameria was never a political entity or province, merely a folkloric region.  It never had administrative subdivisions of any kind.  Only Epirus (periphery) has administrative subdivisions.  Attempts to include an "administrative subdivisions" subsection are POV-pushing by insinuation.  Semi-clever attempts to rename the section "Administrative incorporations" and "Local government are ridiculous attempts at euphemism and are not acceptable either.  --Athenean (talk) 19:00, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Look up, you just want to move parts of every page you do not like. It is just a region ok? And as a region it is on a territory. As a territory it is has political divisions. Readers might wish to know where on hell is this region, where does it border, which subregions does it occupy. What on hell is pov-pushing in here? Its the same as Macedonia (Greece)Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:12, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's mentioned in the article that it include parts of Thesprotia and Preveza prefectures.  Don't forget the map too.  That is more than sufficient.  To include tables with administrative subdivisions makes it look like a provincial or state entity which it is not.  A reader might think it has some sort of legal status which it doesn't.  And I really object to placing tables with cities and their population, because a reader might similarly think that the people living there are Chams, which they are most certainyl not.  It's total POV-pushing, to try to make it look like a state.  Only legally defined territories such as Epirus (periphery) have administrative subdivisions.  --Athenean (talk) 19:19, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a region, not a Cham region, a region. And it is clearly stated in the demographics section that the Chams are not the majority, but a minority. Dah? What kind of problem is there puting some tables? What about Macedonia (Greece), which is not a political subdivision but a region?Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:26, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me repeat myself, since you seem to be playing dumb.  Chameria does not have administrative subdivisions, never has, never will.  Because it is a vaguely defined ethno-geographic region, not a province.  As for Macedonia, please spare me WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS type arguments.  To help the reader understand where it is located, there is a map, and a "Geogrpahy" subsection, which serves that purpose adequately.  Now what is the purpose of including an "administrative subdivisions" section, with tables, list of towns, postal codes, etc...?  What's next a "government and politics" section?  A flag and anthem?  Seriously.  --Athenean (talk) 19:50, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody says that Chameria has administrative subdivision, neither Macedonia, nor Thrace, nor Epirus region have. But, on this region some political divisions exists. And what is the problem on adding this divisions that exists on a region, except of your strange attitude?Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:02, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

text: I agree with Athenean. One the one hand, "Most of what is called Chameria is divided between the Greek prefectures of Thesprotia and Preveza and the southern extremity of Albania's Sarandë District." is perfectly sufficient, and on the other, any further elaboration under a heading "subdivisions" does imply some ordered administrative status for a region which never had it (if one reads "Administrative subdivisions of Chameria", one does get the impression that "Chameria" was a province or a state), whose extent is unclear, and which is not officially recognized in Greece. In contrast, since it was brought into the discussion, Greek Macedonia is a well-defined and widely acknowledged (both within and outside Greece) area, and which was an official subdivision (see Regions of Greece) in the past. Regards, Constantine   ✍  20:09, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "administrative subdivisions" 

message: I propose the merger of this article into Cham Albanians.  This article does not contain any information not found in Cham Albanians and is essentially a content fork of that article.  The extent and boundaries of the Cham homeland are adequately discussed in Cham Albanians.  This article's history section is a duplicate of that of Cham Albanians and the demographics section is a cut-and-paste job.  In short, there is no reason to have this article when all its contents are to be found in Cham Albanians.  --Athenean (talk) 20:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. Ditto. Guildenrich (talk) 18:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

text: What information does this article have not already found in Cham Albanians?  Can you give us some examples?  The geography and history sections are duplicates of those in Cham Albanians.  Any info in them not already in Cham Albanians can be easily accomodated. The "Climate" section is nonsense.  --Athenean (talk) 21:20, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

text: I'm thinking it might be best to leave this discussion for the time being and pick it up once the these individuals are out of the picture.  --Athenean (talk) 04:56, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I will be removing the merge discussion tag then, and re-add it when you feel that you can actually achieve it.--Sarandioti (talk) 08:58, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the tag should stay.  Other people might want to participate in the discussion.  It's just that I don't want to anymore.  --Athenean (talk) 16:40, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're misusing verbs. You *do* want to, but you know that it will have *no* result ;).--Sarandioti (talk) 17:50, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

text: I want to have a discussion on this, but only with reasonable, neutral people.  Which does not include you and your friends.  So long.  --Athenean (talk) 20:49, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  With great pleasure I inform you, that the time when neogreek editors created fictional heroes and minorities in wikipedia, has passed. But still you can hope. Hope is a good thing. --Sarandioti (talk) 21:33, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: And hopefully *your* time editing on wikipedia will soon pass as well.  Indefinitely so :)  --Athenean (talk) 21:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I wouldn't bet on that "indefinitely". In my time in here i may have been blocked several times, but again I have achieved many things, which you certainly didn't like at all. --Sarandioti (talk) 21:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Note:  Sarandioti has been banned from wikipedia for sockpuppetry and block-evasion (just like I predicted).  Athenean (talk) 04:32, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge with [[Cham Albanians]] 

message: If you cannot provide sources for your false history (and I dont accept student papers), then the claims will be deleted by me. The region was not renamed in 1914 and you have no sources to suggest that it was. This is a Greek propaganda page, not a serious encyclopedia page. Xenos2008 (talk) 23:29, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Roudometof isn't a "student", Martin, so why'd you remove him? 87.202.5.200 (talk) 02:16, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

text: To be fair, you did not present any proof that it was not renamed. And remember that the prefectures that exist today in the area were established right after the Balkan Wars. I have never seen anywhere any mention of a "prefecture of Tsamouria". Administratively at least, the area must have reverted to its ancient name right after 1913. Constantine   ✍  12:47, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

text: As anyone who understands Ottoman history knows, the Greek state tended to leave Ottoman structures alone and concentrated on more urgent problems -- such as oppressing Muslims and forced assimilation of Slavs, etc. You can challenge the wording that I used (official) if you like, but the fact is that it was not renamed. And I am bored of being polite about basic issues of research, and bored with Greek POV. You people win arguments just by insisting and shouting loudly: I can do the same. The difference is that I am a university scholar and know what I am talking about. Xenos2008 (talk) 15:23, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Really?? Are you a university scholar? So what? Write a book about it and then we can check if we could use that as a source; till then, your word only has no value. Of course you can shout loudly; that's all you've ever done around here.--Michael X the White (talk) 18:07, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

text: You are bored with being polite! That's rich, since civility has been distinctly lacking on your part until now... Since you are a university scholar, you must have access to tons of sources. Where are they? For crying out loud, if you so much hate the "shitty Greek research", why do you emulate it to the point of absurdity? And you still have not answered my question: if the prefecture called Thesprotia was established in 1913, does this not equal a renaming? As for the oppression of Muslims and Slavs, well, neither Greece nor the other Balkan nations or the Turks went around being nice to their respective minorities in this period. It would be interesting to note however that this quasi-genocidal Greece still has a substantial Muslim minority, which, despite discrimination from the Greek state, has even increased in numbers since 1923, while the corresponding Greek minority in Turkey has all but vanished. It is also interesting to note that in the same period and until the population exchange, Thessaloniki had a Muslim mayor (Osman Said Bey). It is also interesting to note that after the annexation of Thessaly in 1881, the property rights of the great Muslim land-owners were left untouched. I cannot say that Greece or any state in the region has had an exemplary record in human rights, and ethnic cleansing abounded all around but your particular ire against Greece is odd. Constantine   ✍  15:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "It is also interesting to note that after the annexation of Thessaly in 1881" - don't you get it? xenos believes this about thessaly: "The Greek nation state was first created with a violent revolutionary struggle supported by Albanians, and later the British amongst others, and the state in 1832 stopped just north of Thessaly". yeah, he sure knows what he is talking about87.202.4.36 (talk) 16:07, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

text: Since you claim to be a noted and published scholar, and use this argument over and over, could you perhaps also tell us who you are so that we can check it up? And, in case you haven't noticed, you are a real godsend for any Greek nationalist, real or imagined, with a stake in this and similar articles. The only thing you'll achieve the way you are acting is to get blocked, and to have these articles editprotected in their previous form. FYI, if some Greek editors had started behaving like you do, they'd already have been banned. I am saying this in the (most likely vain) hope that you'll calm down and have a constructive conversation for a change... Constantine   ✍  00:56, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questioned modern Greek history 

message: Great idea! What I really meant, is: Are you fu*cking making inside jokes, or what? Why don't we merge the North American continent with the North American People, too? Just kidding. Against, irrelevant Guildenrich (talk) 15:28, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greeting to the Voreioepirote syllogos' brothers! 

message: In the last days User:Stupidus Maximus added three times a list of ca. 50 villages of the region [][][]. Although the specific user was several times informed to explain his various edits he preferred to remove immediately my messages in an hostile way from his talkpage [][]]], not to mention serious accusations he launched against me in talk:Fustanella [].
The specific list is against wp:nc, and especially without any reference to the official names of the settlements. I've explained in my edit summaries that a similar list alreadt exists here List_of_settlements_in_the_Thesprotia_prefecture. Moreover, I see that some villages aren't part of Thesprotia prefecture. Another fact that makes this overwhelming list unnecessary is that the template 'Cham Albanians' already mentions the most important settlment in Tsamouria.Alexikoua (talk) 14:42, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I carefully examined the link you provided for the List_of_settlements_in_the_Thesprotia_prefecture. It refers to current settlements at "Thesprotia prefecture" (modern greek administrative organisation) not to cham settlements . Moreover, place names are not represented in the original names used by cham population that lived there. e.g. The village of "Shulash" (place where my grandfather was born) is not mentioned in your link. Same applies for other settlements. The question here is not to mention "the most important settlement in Thesprotia " as you stated above, but the cham settlements including names used by cham population. This article is not about Thesprotia prefecture but about chameria! Piasoft (talk) 16:32, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way the list is completely unsourced too, you should avoid using personal experience as arguments. Unofficial names & unsourced claims about the regions village's have simply no place here.Alexikoua (talk) 18:54, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The list is completely unsourced, a bunch of OR.  Athenean (talk) 19:01, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

text: So Alexikoua and Athenean, are you saying that if the list is sourced, it would be Ok to stay in the article? In addition, if it does, I would make 5 columns, because it's looking ugly, in addition I would put the name in Greek first and then in parenthesis the Albanian name, and this would be ok with Wikipedia policy. --Sulmues Let's talk  19:27, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll check for sources for these places and create articles for them.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:31, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wikipedia is WP:NOT a directory of indiscriminate information. Mere naked lists, especially of this length, are utterly uninformative. I see no value in this list at all, sourced or not. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:02, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: After a quick search I found out about this Kastri, Thesprotia.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:27, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It also is WP:NOT a directory of useless stubs of every trivial village in every country.  Athenean (talk) 20:44, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Since two books mention it I guess it isn't a trivial village.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:51, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

text: The majority of the settlements doesn't link, whereas the majority of the ones that link, link to other places. I suggest that we leave them now and then one at a time can be worked. I sent a message to user:Stupidus Maximus in his talkpage to get him to place the sources of this list . I don't see this big need to get rid of them right away. If we do, here is the list for future references. 
--Sulmues Let's talk  22:05, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

text: It's been several days now, and I still no compelling arguments for keeping this list of settlements.  It is an uninformative, naked !list that is of very little use.  It is also potentially misleading, as it makes it appear all these villages are Albanian, when in fact the demographic picture of the area was always much more complex than that.  Other articles, such as Northern Epirus do not include such lists, and I note that a similar list was removed from this article in the past.  Unless I hear compelling, non-boring (e.g. "the list is important and useful !") arguments, I will remove it per WP:NOT.  Athenean (talk) 22:02, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  In 1913 Grrece took Chameria and changed the names of the villages in 1926. Wikipedia is not against Lists. Let';s make them with sources, and discuss then. I am busy at this time with other work. Stupidus Maximus (talk) 12:10, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems that this specific list has become a real obsession by a specific wp:spa team. And yet no arguments or explanations just ilikeitstyle nonsense. Since the main contributors on Greek-Albanian topics are under time-limited restriction, this period is a great opportunity for them to launch an aggresive revert war on every situation possible.Alexikoua (talk) 10:09, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Isufi, Hajredin: ASPEKTE TË ISLAMIZIMIT NË ÇAMËRI, in: Studime Historike: No.3-4 /2004. page 17-32.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stupidus Maximus (talk • contribs) 10:05, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I just saw this discussion, I have compiled a sourced list of villages in Chameria region (uncompleted, there are some villages in Preveza and in the two municipalities of Ioannina which fall in Chameria which are not presented) and sourced, but four sources (it needs some reworking, because those villages that have ---- on their Albanian name, were never inhabited by Albanians). But, I think that it needs a new article for that. You can find the list on here.Balkanian`s word (talk) 08:17, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: @Balk. as Fut noted this is a wp:not list. But if the Albanian editors are really obsessed to add something like this, I assume that they will not have any problem with a similar 'Northern Epirus' list.Alexikoua (talk) 09:00, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Since we haven't yet heard a single argument for this badly written list of villages, it's time for it to go. By the way, the inventor of this, St. Maximus, creating the usual mess in every article possible, received a sockpuppet ban. Hope not a new sock or spi show up again here, and restore this, as in the past.Alexikoua (talk) 08:29, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

text: AfD. Athenean (talk) 00:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? It would be a list article. However, it's good you told me, because I was thinking to make an article on the list of the Albanian authors taht were using Greek letters for their writing, but I really don't have any desire to fight over it on AfD. --Sulmues Let's talk  18:42, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This is really mysterious: we have not a single serious list about villages or settlements in a single part of Albania, while on the same time we organize in full detail a list of villages of Chameria (even with coordinations included).Alexikoua (talk) 19:28, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Villages

message: I restored the old lead, because there were a number of problems with the recent edits.  Saying "Chameria" was the name of the region until 1936 is both false and misleading.  It is misleading because it strongly implies that Chameria was an official name, which it never was, and it is false because Chameria is still very much in use, especially among Albanians.  Athenean (talk) 05:55, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  lead 

message: Reverted this bit  of inflammatory (and incorrect - the Chams were not expelled by the Greek armed forces) POV-pushing by one of the many IPs that plague this area.  Athenean (talk) 16:56, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV-pushing 

message: Firstly, the phrase "suffix -eria, which in Albanian language denotes "land of the Chams" is wrong and needs correction. Suffix -(e)ria denotes what it denotes not particularly in Alb. language but in all western european languages and Greek (e.g. Illyria, Bulgaria, Hyngaria, Iberia etc). It is the precursor of the english -ry and the french -rie. The origin is Greco-Latin 
There is an alternative etymology: The population of Chameria, formerly Christians, started getting islamized after the Ottoman occupation. This started with the big landlords who wanted to keep their lands and social position, and soon the farmers and other lower classes followed (or forced to follow). The tradition says that the first to be islamized was someone with the muslim name "Isam", probably the leader of a clan. From Isam all the rest were called "Isams" and from that "'sams" and "Chams". This is a tradition reported by some Greek authors. Instead of citing those  authors (obscure for the english reader) we can possibly add this etymological case as "oral tradition". --Euzen (talk) 19:21, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No, of course not. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:20, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: This map is of the province of Chameria, this is the real map  --Vinie007 19:13, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Map not correct

message: It appears that the 1908 numbers on the table do not represent exactly the population of the modern Thesprotia prefecture. To sum up the three Ottoman kazas (Filiates, Paramythia and Margariti) may be ca. 75-80% the modern prefecture, but important towns of the Filiates kaza are in the Albanian side of the border, like Konispol and Markat, as well as a number of surrounding villages (per [] Kokolakis, p. 270:  Dishat, Vërvë, Shalës, Ninat, Janjar). Although including this data on the table with the rest might be not a good idea, I believe it's no problem no include them in the text with the essential context.Alexikoua (talk) 20:22, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: To be fair, I believe Fililates (Filati) in its heyday (i.e. while its Muslim population still lived there)- as well as the other villages that didn't fall onto the Albanian side of the border - was probably much larger than that of Konispol or Markati. Nevertheless, I left a note. --Yalens (talk) 21:25, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: 1908 number on table

message: Seeing that the current map is in disagreement with the vast majority of sholariship, I'm working on a new version based on Manta, Baltsiotis, Michalopoulos, Kallivretakis etc. Psalidas version can also present in the same image as a historical one (considered the Delvine region as Chameria entirely, while the Greek part is the same with modern scholarship).Alexikoua (talk) 14:32, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know what you mean by the map being in "disagreement with the vast majority of sholariship". Have you also consulted Albanian sources to come to such a final conclusion ? Or is the map in question only going to be based on certain (Greek) sources (of whom all give diverging descriptions of which even Baltsiotis states are not consistent) ? The Albanian view of the matter has not been covered within the article and i will place two promananet sources within the article (Rrapaj and Sheme) to cover that part. The map within the article covers the rough and maximum extents that this area has been defined over time. There is no clear boundary as Chameria never was defined as a political or administrative concept. Within the Albanian speaking world it was (and still to a certain extent is) a geographical and ethnographic one of which nearby Greek speakers seem to have also at times used to (for its use in Greek). Regarding recent edits about Preveza prefecture, Baltsiotis does mention that Chhameria is north of the prefecture. He however does not state that Chameria is north of the Preveza regional unit. Moreover he places Fanari a plain that straddles the Acheron and is mostly south of that river (the area was also a municipality for sometime) as being within Chameria.Resnjari (talk) 17:38, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you explain why you manipulate Baltsiotis, he simply states that: The Chams are a distinct ethno-cultural group which consisted of two integral religious groups: Orthodox Christians and Sunni Muslims. This group lived in a geographically wide area, expanding to the north of what is today the Preveza prefecture, the western part of which is known as Fanari [Frar in Albanian], covering the western part of what is today the prefecture of Thesprotia. []? It's easy to understand that this region is north of Preveza prefecture according to Baltsiotis. By the way, the borders of all prefectures and regional units in Greece fully coincide.Alexikoua (talk) 18:15, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: How i am manipulating Baltsiotis? Fanari falls in mostly Preveza regional unit and yes it is in the West. I am not sure if you are familier with the area, though Fanari is both a ethnographic region based around a plain of the same name in which the Greek state had previously based a municipality within Preveza regional unit which is made up of other municipalities, prefectures etc. In English the administrative equivalents for their Greek counterparts vary (prefecture, district, municipality, commune etc). Also the area defined as Fanari (or Frar as it is called in the local Arvanitika) consists of the following settlements from what Rrapaj lists: Arcë, Beshere, Birbil, Cugnidhë, Gliqi, Goricë, Hojkë, Jonuz, Kanallaq, Kastri, Klisurë, Koron, Koronopull, Leshe, Lëkurës, Mandukë, Manjë, Morfat, Muzhakat, Nemicë, Njihor (i Frarit), Potame, Spatharat, Spllancë, Stanovë, Taban, Trikopallk, Vllandoraq, Xarrë (i Frarit). I can give the Greek versions another time. To make things easy here, Morfi, Hoika, Gliki fall in Thesprotia and are right on the southern administrative border with Preveza regional unit. The rest of Fanari villages are located in Preveza regional unit (in the former municipality of Fanari) (have a look at this map foor while i find the others :). Now your saying that Fanari somehow falls somewhere else. Where else in Thesprotia is Fanari ? Clarify this for me at least. Baltsiotis when he states north of Prezeva prefecture, its north of the Preveza area, municipalities etc where there is no Fanari. Instead there it is the plain and ethnographic/geographic region is known as Lamari and has been always traditionally Greek speaking. In an article(Lambros Baltsiotis (2015). "Balkan Roma immigrants in Greece: An initial approach to the traits of a migration flow." International Journal of Language, Translation and Intercultural Communication. 1. (1)) that Baltsiotis wrote on Romani migration about both sides of the border , regarding his fieldwork on Fanari he wrote the following (p.5): There are also some indications of the patterns of migration in relation to the language and the religious heritage of the Roma communities. In the region of Epirus in Northwestern Greece, the  knowledge  of  Albanian  language  seems  to  be  of  certain  significance in the areas where Greeks are of an Albanian speaking background or where they still speak the language: in the plains of Fanari in Preveza district for example, Roma farm workers are exclusively Albanian." Fanari falls within Preveza district. Wikipedia uses regional unit for the same kind of administrative area. Its not the fault of others that equivalents vary. Nonetheless Fanari is in Preveza regional unit, not outside it.Resnjari (talk) 18:44, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Psalidas (cited from Kallivretakis) says that Tsamouria coincided with the Kazas of Margariti, Paramythia and Delvina. Michalopoulos, Kentriotis, Manta and Kallivretakis state that the southern border was Acheron, eastern border the slopes of Olytsikas and northern border Konispol. Batlsiotis rouphly agrees with the rest of the modern academics (he excludes Fanari and Parga). Fanari doesn't make a big difference its just a small region on the banks of the Acheron on the border between Preveza and Thesprotia (either prefecture or regional unit it's geographically the same). To sum up, all of them (Psalidas too) roughly agree about the eastern and the southern border.Alexikoua (talk) 18:34, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine. All those Greek scholars and sources give the Greek view of what the region was or is roughly defined as (if one can still say that for the Greek side of the border these days). Frasheri a early Albanian source gives something similar. I need to add Rrapaj sand Sheme and its similar. Again the borders of Chameria were never definitive and varied according to local Greek and Albanian/Arvanite speaking communities and their localised constructs of geography. The sources diverge. There is no one smoking gun definition and its folly to pin one down. The map in the article give the maximum extent of which Elsie outlines in his description and is also consistent with what Chameria is not (Ioannina or the whole of Greek Epirus as some ignorant idiots now in Albania say).Resnjari (talk) 18:52, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this was explained to you. Nationality of scholars is not what determines a viewpoint, nor the use of the sources. -- SILENTRESIDENT 18:55, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: ????The scholarship gives alternative viewpoints on what the region was defined as; with even the scholarship itself stating that there are divergences. A editor here said they want to create a map on a "vast array" of sources because the current one is problematic. My point was that most of those sources engage with (divergent) Greek definitions of the region and that the article has almost none giving an Albanian definition (considering that Chameria is a concept of Albanian speaking people). Now if all those want to talk about the geography of the area, well we can. I know it well. I have traveled there and stayed in many a village where Arvanitika is still spoken like in Velani (i.e: Hrisavgi), or Picari (Aetos) and other areas.Resnjari (talk) 19:13, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly SR, I also wonder how Resnjari can prove that a region is within Preveza prefecture but not within Preveza regional unit as claimed here: []. Unfortunately I know the region very well, but it doesn't need to be an expert to understand that this falls into wp:DISRUPTION. To sum up Baltsiotis states that Chameria is north of Preveza regional unit/prefecture (whether r.u. or pref. its geographically the same). Alexikoua (talk) 19:13, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

text: I have been in Chrysavgi and the other villages and I know everyone who happen to live here, even the couple which runs the pottery shop right on the intersection before the village of Chrysavgi for example, and even the family that owns the restaurant and the house above it by the river where the summer festival takes place. You are saying you know the region well, however your edits appear to contradict this. Alexikoua is correct that the Kallikratis reform redefined only the Prefecture's administrative structure; not the Prefecture boundaries.  -- SILENTRESIDENT 02:28, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: To say it with more simple words your claim is de facto wrong: there is no region: (within the Preveza regional unit) and north of Preveza prefecture.. Both regional units and prefectures in Greece have the very same borders and Baltsiotis states that this region is north of Preveza prefecture/r.u..Alexikoua (talk) 23:17, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Apart from the obvious issue to claim that a prfecture is geographically different from the Regional unit, the term Chameria is geographically irrelevant with the presence of Albanian speakers in adjacent areas (Ioannina, Konitsa etc.). Tsamouria was a region inhabited by various ethnicities and prior to 1912 Tsamides were called all of its inhabitats (Greeks, Albanians etc) irrespective of ethnicity. On the other hand Albanian speakers were also present in Ioannina, Konitsa, etc, in Epirus but not in Chameria. The concept that everything that speaks Albanian inside NW Greece is called Cham is a much later invention.Alexikoua (talk) 13:56, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Map #2

message: Athenean Chameria is noted as a region even in Greek sources (both non-government and government). In Albania the bit that extends there is still known as Chameria and is considered a region (not in some irredtist way). Some Albanians call the Greek side of the border with irredtist connotations. Only on the Greek side has the term been disused post WW2 as stated in scholarship due to the toponym gaining irredentist overtones. Please do not delete sections like that. Chameria is more complicated.Resnjari (talk) 06:26, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The section is completely unsourced, and repeats a lot of the same information already in the borders section, so there is no need to be so "protective" of Chameria. Athenean (talk) 06:38, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

text: Ok so that section can be incorporated into the above section. You should have said that in the first place, make things easier. The reasons some of which where a concern that you gave in the deletion were: "rm section b/c 1) not a country, 2) uncourced, 3), ethno-geographical regions and irredentist term articles don't have geogrphy and climate sections, 4) redundant with "borders" section)"
Chameria is a geographic/ethnographic region and was recognised as such until WW2 by all who used the term or toponym which wasimportantly used by the Greek government in its official documents. Thereafter things change as per the sources and events relating to the war. Since you brought this up, what part is repetitious before i make edits to incorporate and condense the section ?Resnjari (talk) 06:43, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

text: I did say that in my first edit summary, but it seems you didn't notice it.  The rivers are mentioned a lot in the previous section, so I felt it was repetitious.  It was also entirely unsourced. Athenean (talk) 06:51, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  deletion of Geography and climate section

message: The link you placed giving the location of Lakka , , is to a village that was formally known as Salitsa prior to 1929 . That Lakka does not correspond to the Lakka  Konemenos wrote in the 19th century in which he was referring to a region. Academic Mihalis Kokolakis identifies Lakka as being the region to the east of Souli. See page 373 and map (hartes) 1 for more (Mihalis Kokolakis (2003). Το ύστερο Γιαννιώτικο Πασαλίκι: χώρος, διοίκηση και πληθυσμός στην τουρκοκρατούμενη Ηπειρο (1820-1913). EIE-ΚΝΕ.). Also the Austro-Hungarian Empire when they prepared their military maps of the region in the early twentieth century also identify Lakka in the same area as Kokolakis though also distinguishing its three sub-regions all with the word Lakka. See map:  http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/38-39.jpg  For whole map collection see:  http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm The area is also known as Lakka Souli. Best.Resnjari (talk) 10:19, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Location of Lakka

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Replacement of the existing map should be discussed here Needless to say that a new map needs neutral & academic sources at least.Alexikoua (talk) 15:22, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course we can have a slightly better map than the current one. There has been already a discussion here Talk:Chameria#Map_#2. On the other hand an initiative to simply inflate the region without reference tends to fall into disruption.Alexikoua (talk) 19:41, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

text: That map is not "POV", it (source) is made by a prestigious Hungarian scholar. It looks like a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT of your part. N.Hoxha (talk) 17:39, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

text: "What's really weird here is that the correspondent source includes several maps of this era ... inflates that Albanian areas to the max." Uhm, no it is not "weird" at all. I used the map with the most details, but if you prefer another map of the source I can reproduce another one. N.Hoxha (talk) 18:37, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The map is extremely problematic because it uses solid coloring over areas that are diverse. It also contains numerous errors (e.g. Catholic Albanian areas near Ioannina, Greek-inhabited areas as Albanian, etc.), and it also contradicts the other maps in the article. The article also has 3 maps already, that's quite enough. We don't need a fourth, especially when it is problematic. Khirurg (talk) 17:54, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Those arguments don't justify the removal of my map. The other maps that are present in the article have errors as well, and if it's the coloring that bothers you, then I guess all maps on Wikipedia about countries with diverse populations that use solid coloring should be removed aswell. "it also contradicts the other maps", it only contradicts the linguistic map, I can remake the map in the lede to coincide with this map, that's not a problem. N.Hoxha (talk) 18:13, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears that the map is based on a non-published source [],  but this isn't the most serious problem here. There is a collection of late 19th early 20th century maps, off course all of them are non-neutral on modern standards. The specific one is based on a c. 1900 map. If we rely on outdated maps why Hoxha doesn't present a map like the one in p. 21 of the same source (by Virgili?).Alexikoua (talk) 18:39, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you talking about? Virigili is dead long time ago (primary), the Hungarians who made (in the 21th century) the map I reproduced are still alive... (not primary) N.Hoxha (talk) 18:48, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

text: This has literally nothing to do with our discussion. N.Hoxha (talk) 18:50, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: My map is not an outdated "crap", talk about PA. N.Hoxha (talk) 18:55, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Your map is one of many that dates from c.1900. Have you ever read the legend about this map? It's the worst kind in terms of neutrality, don't do that again.Alexikoua (talk) 21:48, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

text: I have read the legend, have you? It clearly says "redrawn and fit to other maps (cca 1900) by Zsolt Bottlik". It is not from 1900 it is about 1900. No valid arguments were presented to justify the removal of my map and it should therefore be reintroduced immediately. N.Hoxha (talk) 18:51, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This map you have created was based on a c.1900 (left). It has the same historical value as the one of Kiepert (right) map. So, tell me why you prefer only the one POV?Alexikoua (talk) 19:22, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The map I reproduced can't even slightly be compared with that map (right) which is probably the worst POV piece on this website. Tell me why do you insist on talking about a map that has literally nothing to do with the source I presented? The map I put under the old map is the only map I found with similar historical value to the map above it. But then again, nothing to do with the source I presented. N.Hoxha (talk) 20:14, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

text: Resnjari offered you some piece of advice on how to select neutral sources. I'm afraid that 'all' those maps here are not close to the real picture. They are not even close to eachother.Alexikoua (talk) 21:40, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , again please, don't invoke me for your 'editing purposes', especially if you don't ping me to partake in the said discussion. Do not take my name in vain. I don't want to be used as a verbal cudgel against other editors whom i highly respect for various agendas. It's not good faith editing.Resnjari (talk) 07:32, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

text: Indeed they are not similar at all: one map is backed by recent RS material and two other maps have little to no historical value whatsoever. I'm not sure why you bring Resnjari into this. N.Hoxha (talk) 23:38, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , although i am not inclined to support the addition of the said map you made to this article, you should NOT take @Alexikoua's reaction seriously on this matter. Alexi plain and simple has used similar old and problematic maps in a manner makes the editor hypocritical to say the least. I present Alexikoua's ethnographic map (link: ) made about Albania purporting to show current/traditional ethnic groups/communities in Albania and plastered all over Wikipedia. One of the sources used is this map  in Sotiriades from 1919  cited in Alexi's bibliography for the map. Why is Sotiriades an issue? Well i said it in this discussion . Have a read and you will know what type of editors you’re dealing with. .Resnjari (talk) 07:32, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

text: Resnjari: I've created a map based on your suggestion and used Kokkolakis. I assume that's your way of appreciation to other editors in Wikipedia. Also, the only trolling editor here is the one that encourages others "not to take serious their co editors". Alexikoua (talk) 11:12, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , don't invoke me as a verbal cudgel against other editors when your own backyard contains things like the Albania map and use of Sotiriades. Thanks.Resnjari (talk) 12:13, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Resnjari: I've used your directions about the Chameria maps. I don't know what you are talking about. The map you mention is based on Le Monde Diplomatique (not Sotiriadis) and is a modern source..Alexikoua (talk) 12:21, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Map

message: How about changing the lede, with focus on the "ethnographic" nature of the term? There are four Albanian ethnographic regions, Gegëria, Toskëria, Labëria and Çamëria.Edion Petriti (talk) 19:08, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest that the lede, as it is now, "Chameria (Albanian: Çamëria; Greek: Τσαμουριά, Tsamouriá; Turkish: Çamlık)[2] is a term used today mostly by Albanians for parts of the coastal region of Epirus in southern Albania and the historical Greek region of Epirus, traditionally associated with an Albanian speaking population called Chams" should be changed to reflect the ethnographic nature of the term. Because it can be properly sourced. «Simbas këtij kriteri, populli shqiptar si njësi etnografike ndahet në... Gegëri e Toskëri. ... Toskëria gjithashtu plotpjesëtohet në 4 nëngrupe të tjera që quhen Labëri, Myzeqe, Toskëri e Çamëri (According to this criterion, the Albanian people as an ethnographic unit is divided into ... Gegëri and Toskëri. ... Toskëria is also divided into 4 other subgroups called Labëri, Myzeqe, Toskëri and Çamëri.)».  Edion Petriti (talk) 08:54, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Lede

message: * Procedural closeThis Rfc is not the right way to go here; fails WP:RFCBEFORE, and other reasons. Details at #Discussion below. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 08:32, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Survey 

message: A couple of points:
* Have you discussed this issue before?  An Rfc is not the first stop in discussion, but more of a last resort when extensive discussion with other editors has been unable to achieve resolution. You can just open a discussion about this, without the need for creating an Rfc.  See WP:RFCBEFORE.  
* Please see WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY.  Of the four regions you mention, not one of them is mentioned in the body, thus, it would be completley inappropriate to mention them in the WP:LEAD. 
I suggest you simply close this Rfc (you can do that by removing the line that reads ), and add material to the body of the article concerning the four regions, taking care to follow Wikipedia policies of WP:Verifiability, which means including citations to reliable sources. Once you have done that, you may consider whether this newly added content is sufficiently important in the article, that it ought to be added to the lead.  But it is definitely premature to add it to the Lead now. Good luck, Mathglot (talk) 08:32, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest that the lede, as it is now, "Chameria (Albanian: Çamëria; Greek: Τσαμουριά, Tsamouriá; Turkish: Çamlık)[2] is a term used today mostly by Albanians for parts of the coastal region of Epirus in southern Albania and the historical Greek region of Epirus, traditionally associated with an Albanian speaking population called Chams" should be changed to reflect the ethnographic nature of the term. Because it can be properly sourced. «Simbas këtij kriteri, populli shqiptar si njësi etnografike ndahet në... Gegëri e Toskëri. ... Toskëria gjithashtu plotpjesëtohet në 4 nëngrupe të tjera që quhen Labëri, Myzeqe, Toskëri e Çamëri (According to this criterion, the Albanian people as an ethnographic unit is divided into ... Gegëri and Toskëri. ... Toskëria is also divided into 4 other subgroups called Labëri, Myzeqe, Toskëri and Çamëri.)».  Edion Petriti (talk) 08:54, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: Why does the lead of the article mention Sarandë District as if it still exists? That administrative unit was dissolved in 2000. Dimadick (talk) 12:19, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Because we're all too lazy to fix it. All that matters is Konispol and Markat anyways. --Calthinus (talk) 19:51, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sarandë District