Talk:Rape/Archive 4

message: I removed the sentence "It is considered by most societies to be among the most severe crimes."  I'm no great comparative penologist, but it seems to me that under the Western definition of rape, most societies today don't care in the least about a very large percentage of rape.  Furthermore, I can say with some certainty that at least Biblical Israel and common-law England didn't consider it "among the most severe crimes", based on the various punishments they prescribed for various things.  I'd suspect, in fact, that very few societies prescribed the death penalty for rape, ever, where of course that was a relatively common sentence in most societies until recently (although I could be dead wrong about that).  So if anyone would like to restore the sentence, I would be interested in seeing sources. —Simetrical (talk) 6 July 2005 07:36 (UTC)
::I think you should put the sentence back perhaps with minor revisions.  Consider for example, the massive international support of the Pakistani woman who was gang raped by court order.  Clearly, the attitude towards rape is changing in countries in which at one time or another it was not even an afterthought.   In societies where women's rights are strong and/or where women and men are viewed as equals, rape is likely viewed much more harshly than societies where women are not afforded the same rights.   And in societies where women's rights are well-protected, rape definitely is one of the most severe crimes.  So perhaps it is better to say something like, "It is considered by many societies (especially those where men and women are viewed as "equals") to be amongst the most severe crimes.  In other societies, rape is not considered a severe crime because of tradition, cultural, or religious reasons."    
::I believe I know where you're coming from. I've had experience with certain people who don't think anything of it, and talk about it humorously. It's mainly the more insensitive macho men of my male gender who do it. It's more common in groups. This is probably why gang-rapes are so horrible and prison raping occurs frequently in groups. As I see it, some people don't seem to be bothered with rape unless it happens to them or someone they love who is 'off limits'. -User:tyciol
::Yes, perhaps what you said about Israel about 3000 years ago is true.  That was then, this is now.  Rape is now, rightfully, a crime in many parts of the world.
I read that most rape in the US in prison rape against males - most of which goes unpunished. Its not important if its not a threat to the lawmakers or their owners - I mean bribers - I mean contributors. 4.250.33.73 11:32, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Among the most severe crimes 

message: :...fellating a man without his permission is grounds for a charge of second degree rape in the United States.
This claim is unlikely; rape is a state crime and not a federal crime, and thus every one of the 50 states would have had to enact this legislation for this statement to be true.  Is it true, or only true in X number of states?  Tempshill 22:39, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  2nd degree rape in the US claim 

message: As everyone can see, some major edits have just been made in an extremely short span of time, and the re-arrangement of sections within the article makes it hard to spot changes that might be opposed by consensus -- if consensus could spot within the massive red text of the diff where a content change had occurred.  I'm listing here some edits which should perhaps get extra attention to make sure that they didn't mask significant changes that would be opposed by consensus:
* http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rape&diff=next&oldid=23581868
* http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rape&diff=next&oldid=23582955
* http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rape&diff=next&oldid=23585261
* http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rape&diff=next&oldid=23594684
* http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rape&diff=next&oldid=23595902
* http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rape&diff=next&oldid=23598265
* http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rape&diff=next&oldid=23600360
* http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rape&diff=next&oldid=23602843
* http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rape&diff=next&oldid=23607407
* http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rape&diff=next&oldid=23609293
I've taken a first pass, but I would be egotistical to think I caught everything.  Can others do some checking and see how much the text has been altered, and whether it's a change that would pass consensus? -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:10, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleaning up after rapid edits 

message: Someone is vandalising the page, and I prefer not to revert any page more than once every 24 hrs, so... please have a look! Sam Spade 12:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  vandalism 

message: "Some incorrectly believe that in Middle Eastern societies honor killings may be sanctioned. However, in some cultures rape victims are sometimes killed to restore the family's name."  ANyone want to try for soemthing better? Rich   Farmbrough 20:38, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Trickey sentence

message: That's right. I've been told in my historical context class that, before the 1980's, rape was completely legal in some Mexican states like Jalisco, where I'm from. He also said rape was declared illegal after a massive signature raising campaign pushed by an ITESO laws student; however, if you rape your wife, you won't be prosecuted as raping your spouse is legal. If someone has more information on that respect, I'd like to see it added to the article. Da nuke 08:29, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legality of rape in some Mexican states 

message: I think the 'gaming usage of rape' section should be deleted or moved to another page, like rape (gaming).  It's out of context here and a relatively minor part.  Here's the text:
:Rape can additionally be used in the gaming community. To "Rape" someone is to overwhelm their skill so immensly, that they did not stand a chance at ever beating you. The term "rape" is not limited to any certain games. It is used in the RPG, RTS, and FPS communities. Although considered by some to be vulgar, the term "Rape" used in games is purly jokingly and should not intend offense but is only simply saying, "i owned you".
Thoughts? delldot | talk 22:09, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gaming Usage of Rape 

message: I have been thinking about this for a couple of years.  I have noticed that some of the ways in which people "pick on" rape survivors resembles how people "picked on" gay men (for example) in the past.  I was wondering why one is politically incorrect (the later) and the other is just how things are.  I finally got around to looking up some abstracts on hate crimes in the  
NCJRS Abstracts Database and found two possible categories of interest.
The first is bias crimes against people with disabilities (PTSD, Rape trauma syndrome and most confusingly and important DID).  I think this one is more likely to be immediately recognizable.  
The second is bias crimes that are gender based.  
Just thought it was worth giving some thought to.
I just found this link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femicide
It has some information on gender bias crimes as well.
take care, survivor
"Last year the American Psychological Association issued the report
Hate Crimes Today:
An Age-Old Foe in Modern Dress. In the report Dr. Jack McDevitt, a criminologist, stated, "Hate crimes are message crimes. They are different from other crimes in that the offender is sending a message to members of a certain group that they are unwelcome. Preliminary research indicates that hate crimes have more serious psychological effects than non-bias motivated crimes."
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/hatecrimes.html
 
The Oxford English Dictionary defines a hate crime as:
* Hate crime -orig. U.S., a crime, usually violent, motivated by hatred or intolerance of another social group, esp. on the basis of race or sexuality; crime of this type; freq. attrib. (occas. in pl.), designating legislation, etc., framed to address such crime.
* Hate speech -orig. U.S., speech expressing hatred or intolerance of other social groups, esp. on the basis of race or sexuality; hostile verbal abuse (though the term is sometimes understood to encompass written and non-verbal forms of expression).
The Department of Justice Federal Bureau of Investigation states that "A hate crime, also known as a bias crime, is a criminal offense committed against a person, property, or society that is motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin."
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/hate_crime/
The operational definition of Hate crimes by the HATE-CRIME NETWORK states:
"What makes a crime a hate crime?
The offender and the victim were of different race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, and/or ethnicity/national origin..."
 
The invisibility of the rape survivor community and the general ignorance of the nature of rape trauma syndrome and PTSD contributes to the frequency of hate crimes and hate speech against rape survivors. The public's unfamiliarity with dissociation, dissociative identity disorder, self injury and other disabilities suffered by rape victims may be a contributing factor.
 
"Congress amended the Hate Crimes Statistics Act in 1994 to add disabilities as a category for which hate crimes data are to be collected. ...we know from social science research that the pervasive stigma that people apply to both mental and physical disability is expressed in many forms of discriminatory behaviors and practices, including increased risk for sexual and physical abuse. The Judge David L. Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law, a national organization representing low-income adults and children with mental disabilities, holds that such hate crimes are motivated by the perception that people with disabilities are not equal, deserving, contributing members of society, and, therefore, it is okay to attack them." TX NAACP
Regarding disability bias hate crimes: "Of the 73 victims of this type of bias, 49 were the subjects of a bias against a mental disability."
Department of Justice Federal Bureau of Investigation
In Hate Crimes and Disability in America "the findings and their implications for such issues as alternative manifestations of prejudice, underreporting of violent crimes, cross-disability support for hate crime prevention, rehabilitation counseling practice, and future research directions are discussed."
In Examining the Boundaries of Hate Crime Law: Disabilities and the "Dilemma of Difference" Grattet and Jenness find that "Persons with disabilities represent one of the largest minority groups in the United States. Recent research suggests that the multitude of ways that persons with disabilities are victimized is pronounced and increasing. However, social scientists and policymakers have largely overlooked persons with disabilities." (Grattet & Jenness 2001) Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology
 
"In addition to the other categories of hate crime, gender is increasingly being included as a status category in State and Federal hate crime laws. The current study explored how prosecutors view gender as a status category in hate crime law, specifically in terms of their knowledge of gender-bias violence and their willingness to charge violence against women as a hate crime... The authors recommend adopting an advocacy approach that supports the notion of violence against women as an issue of power and control while at the same time educates and encourages prosecutors and the public to adopt a hate crime perspective on violence against women. " (McPhail & DiNitto 2005) Violence Against Women: An International and Interdisciplinary Journal
 
Engendering Hate Crime Policy: Gender, the "Dilemma of Difference," and the Creation of Legal Subjects by Valerie Jenness "discusses what feminist legal scholars refer to as "the dilemma of difference" that is inherent in hate-crime policy in the United States...
The author addresses how the dilemma of difference has been managed in the formulation of hate-crime policy in the United States, as it simultaneously addresses the ways in which gender is both distinct from and similar to other status provisions recognized in hate-crime law, i.e., race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc." (Jenness 2003) Journal of Hate Studies
 
For sexual assault survivors "these negative experiences have been termed "the second rape" ( Madigan & Gamble, 1991 ), "the second assault" ( Martin & Powell, 1994 ), or "secondary victimization" ( Campbell & Raja, 1999 ; Campbell et al., 1999 ; Williams, 1984 ). Campbell et al. ( 1999 ) found that victims of non-stranger rape (e.g., acquaintance rape and date rape) were at particular risk for secondary victimization, which was related to increased psychological distress and delayed recovery." Mental Health Services for Rape Survivors
--Survivor 00:37, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias crimes against rape survivors 

message: This subheading is counter-intuitive and makes allusion to established authorities (law enfourcement officials).  So there should be some references to substantiate these claims.--Esprit15d 18:34, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sexual fantasy

message: Another theory entails the need to protect one's own sense of invulnerability.  This inspires people to believe that rape only happens to those who deserve or provoke the assault (Schneider et. al., 1994).  This is a way of feeling safer.  If the potential victim avoids the behaviours of the past victims then they themselves will remain safe and feel less vulnerable.
If anyone wants to work on the wording of this feel free.  I'm more of an organizer than a writer.
--Survivor 01:57, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: added to victim blaming

message: --Survivor had just added the following section, which to me seems to be undigested chunks of quotation barely held together as a coherent argument. It is also full of sheer assertion. What is being claimed here, that rape can be defined as a "hate crime"? That seems highly contentious to say the least. There seems to be some argument that "hate speech" against rape survivors is caused by lack of knowledge of PTSD, but it is not clear to me what this "hate speech" is and whether this rather thanb rape is being characterised as a hate crime in thses paragraphs. Altogether, some clarity is needed. Paul B 02:23, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: new section

message: It seems appropriate to cover the use of rape as a tool of war. Examples include the Darfur conflict and the Second Congo War; the latter link even has a paragraph on this phenomenon from which relevant material might be drawn directly. If nobody else volunteers to write something up, I'll go ahead and do it (assuming others feel it has a place in this article). Note that a very brief stub currently exists for Systematic rape, though I'm not sure why it might belong under that header rather than as a section in this main article.ERobson 04:43, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rape as a tool of war 

message: I think adding a sub section on secondary victimization to this section is appropriate.  It is part of the aftermath of rape.  I hope everyone is okay with this.  I will start it but feel free to add constructive edits.
--Survivor 02:31, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section on the Effects of rape 

message: The concept of rape victims being "damaged property" has a historical basis dating back to when women were literally owned by a member of their family.
"The origin of rape laws can be traced to the once-widespread belief that women were the property of men. A female was considered first the property of her father. Because her virginity was valued as her principal asset, rape was considered a theft. Once a woman was married, she belonged to her husband. Rape then was treated as a crime against the husband's exclusive sexual rights to her. Because marriage gave these rights to the husband, legally, it was not possible for him to rape his own wife." Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia
This is what is known as an underlying cultural assumption. They are incredibly difficult to even notice much less change. One way in which society can circumnavigate this 'subconscious' idea is to begin looking at sexual assault as a violation of rights rather than a violation of the flesh. It is a violation of the body but the person inside the body is more important. The physical wounds will heal but the psychological ones will take a lifetime. Women and men both have the right to control who has access to them and their bodies. Privacy is one of the rights of the rape victim which have been violated.
"Though a rape victim may not sustain substantial physical tissue damage, rapists may inflict significant psychological trauma by asserting uninvited domination, control, and power over the unwilling other"(Schneider et. al., 1994)
Women are not property
"A fundamental categorization of crime is based on criminological theory and is commonly used to detect patterns in the crime rate. This classification divides crime broadly into two categories: crimes against the person and crimes against property. Crimes against the person are predatory in nature: the offender intends, threatens, or commits physical harm against the victim. Such crimes include homicide, rape, and armed robbery. Crimes against property involve no physical threat to the victim and include arson, burglary, larceny, and motor-vehicle theft." Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia
References:
Sedney, Mary Anne, "rape (crime)." Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia. Scholastic Library Publishing, 2006 <http://gme.grolier.com> (January 6, 2006).
Vito, Gennaro F., "crime." Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia. Scholastic Library Publishing, 2006 <http://gme.grolier.com> (January 6, 2006).
survivor
:Ummm...  survivor, what does this have to do with the article?  That part isn't very clear from what you've written. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:59, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Women are not property 

message: For petesake, does every Wikipedia article have include ephemeral internet culture slang usages of the subject? No one is going to come to this article thinking "I wonder want bad2dbone meant when he said he 'got raped' on Fark's Photoshop challenge." All words have metaphorical usages as well as literal usages; that doesn't need to be spelled out just to get "pwned" jammed into another article. --Tysto 06:44, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-sexual uses of the term

message: Do we really need this link to be the only one disscussing support for male rape survivors:
http://www.alltheseyears.net/male.htm
It looks like it was designed as an after thought by a female rape survivor support site. Even the discussion on that page is from the point of view of a female trying to understand male rape.  Wouldn't it be better to provide a link to a page created by male rape survivors or a site that directly deals with male rape?
--24.130.125.164 09:46, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Male Rape Support Link

message: The penitly for rape shonld be highing, because it is not fear for the woman to suffer for the rest of her life and the man only gets 8 years of in prisenment. I belive men who rape should be Beating, rape ,burn and tortured. then the amount of rape wounld decrease.
There is no need to rape a woman. Men should learn how to controll them selves and not make thier dick's rule over there heads.  23:26, 21 January 2006 (Signature added Dabljuh 00:06, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, you have mistaken this for a blog, or a discussion board.  It is not.  This is the talk page for the Wikipedia article about rape, where we discuss how to make that article better.  Your post has nothing to do with the article, since it's all personal opinion. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  HIGHER PUISHMENT FOR RAPE! 

message: The  Rapist warning signs needs a citiation, even given it's preamble. The preamble basically states, "a rapist may or may not exhibit any of the following character traits. A non-rapist may also exhibit the same traits," which leads me to question the usefulness of this section. 24.86.197.132 10:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have to disagree on your latter point.  Warning signs are useful, and they do not become less useful just because they are accompanied by cautions that they are not immune to false negatives or false positives.  Readers need to know that the absence of these warning signs does not mean a person is not a rapist; nor does the presence of these warning signs mean that they are.  You might think that people would obviously take such cautions for granted, but a surprising amount of people don't even think about things such as "is this a list of warning signs, or of absolute proof signs?" -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Agreed; citations would definitely improve the section.  -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations Needed 

message: Edited POV phrasing that suggested that many minors are *only* victimized by law enforcement, and put the word perpatrator in scare quotes. Whether or not some is the victim of a crime depends upon the statute, not some subjective feeling of victimization. When an adult has sex with a child, the child is a victim of a crime, whether they know it or not. And the adult who did it is the perpatrator, period. Benami 20:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ya, that was a bit of a cock-up wasn't it.  I was aiming for a meaning along the lines of "by the very definition of statutory rape the perpetrator is a loved one (usually a bf or gf)" but couldn't quite find a good way to put it in there.  I was hoping someone would come along, see the meaning, and rephrase it.  Reads better now, but still doesn't convey the meaning I was going for.  Ie it really doesn't explain why the victim didn't feel like a victim from the get-go.  --Pascal666 23:06, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Secondary victimization and statutory rape 

message: This article shows the effects of rape but has no section on the causes of rape.  However there is much specious speculation and POV throughout this article positing such causes.  I hope to see a solid section in this article that shows the ongoing research on the causes for Rape by both men and women.  Susan Brownmiller's ideas are undergoing serious challenge and this needs to be studied here.   Here is Anthropologist Micheal Ghiglieries take from The Dark Side of Man: Tracing the Origins of Male Violence:
Because rape is such a hideous crime, it is hard for many of us to understand, even when the facts are clear.  Many of the ideas, ideals, and paradigms we hold about human nature become stumbling blocks to understanding rape when the very idea of sexually motivated rape clashes with those ideas.  The problem is that many of us still prefer our own ideas over the facts.  Some feminists, for example, still argue that men rape to dominate and control women because society trains men to be superior to women and to dominate them.  If this were true we would see three trends: First, men would rape older, more powerful women more often. (They do not.) Second, rapists would come in all ages and from all walks of life.  (They do not.) Third when socialization changes, rape should change. (It does not.) For example, some feminists' ultimate solutions to rape is to create sexual equality in earnings, education, employement, and prestige so as to minimize male domination of politics and economics and to equalize power.  But, in twenty-six large American cities that have made progress toward sexual equality in their police departments, researchers found the highest, not the lowest, rates of rape.
This much is clear: the only factor common to all rapes is sexual assault.  Indeed in Exploring Human Sexuality, psyhologists Kathryn Kelley and Donne Byrne define rape as 'violent sexual crime in which threat, force, and intimidation are used to coerce and unwilling victim to engage in sex related acts'.  Moreover to blame 'aggression' instead of sexual impulses for rape, notes pyschologist Herant Katchadourian in his Fundamentals of Human Sexuality, presents three problems.
"First, to claim that coitus can be a nonsexual act undermines the concept of sex as objectively definable.  Second, it has us pretend that everything about sex is wonderful when in reality sex cann be awful, and rape is a good example of it.  Third, it does not allow a context for experiences like date rape or acquaintence rape, which may or may not be violent, but certainly center around the issue of sexuality."
Even more enlightening is how women vicims themselves define rape.  Pauline Bart and K. L. Scheppe interviewed victims to determine their opinions.  What they found should come as no surprise: 'Although all women studied were victims of acts legally defined as rape, those who were subjected to non-phallic acts were likely to have labeled themselves as having ESCAPED rape'.  In short, no penis, no rape.  According to this study, power and control are irrelevant to women victims in DEFINING rape.
He goes on to pose possible causes for rape by stating that men almost exclusively rape women who are the most fertile and desireable as wives.  and that, most rapists are socioeconomic losers, or at least not yet winners, with inferior abilities to attract desirable women through honest courtship.
I hope to see a section on Causes of Rape here that includes all known research on this topic.  Rape has long been used as political football and this article is full of feminist POV on why men rape women.  There is also no discussion here on why women rape men and young men, often their own children or their students, much less on why women rape women. It is only by knowing and genuinely facing such causes that we will eliminate rape forever.  To me, this topic deserves objective NPOV study, here in this article, based upon the known facts and statistics about both male and female rape.  Please comment and please suggest places I\we can include this with no baseless edit wars.
Anacapa 02:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Causes of Rape, or Why Men and Women Rape or Myths about Rape

message: I added preliminary research on this topic.  Could someone else flesh it out?   I also hope we include possible causes for female on female and female on male rape in a Cause of Rape section.   Finally, is there a legal definition of female on female rape?  I have never seen a prosecution of this particulary loathsome crime in the news.  I suggest a glance at the external links for more background here to gain a better understanding of what is indeed the 'last secret' about rape.  
Anacapa 03:01, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rape of females by females

message: From what i see of the additional info on female perps I think it would make more sense to add a section on diversity of types of rape / perps/ victims. Maybe integrate this with the types of rape section/expand it. Having such odd insertions as profiles and warning signs of female perps seems really odd and awkward.  There is such little research on female perps at all that specifically noting thier motivational differences is peculiar.  Then take out the word male under motivations and just leave it at rapist's motivations.  I've meet female rapists before and they seemed to me to have very similar motivations to men: power and control.  Maybe just mention the issue inside the motivations section if it is important to you.  I just don't think it makes sense there.--12.211.21.87 05:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problem with your deletions.  You are probably right about this being inpropriate here; I was reacting to the shameless repetition of discriminatory statistics in this section.  Thanks for saving a copy of this. I will see where I can work it in elsewhere.  These are not just my opinions.  They are facts based on 13 male and female contributors who wrote Sexually Aggressive Women, a book that among many others exposes rampant scientific and legal discrimation against male and female victims of female rapists.   Anacapa 00:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New section on diversity? 

message: (m-m, f-m, f-f, m-f)
This seems the cleanest and least political form of classification to me.
Anacapa 01:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problem with your deletions.  You are probably right about this being inpropriate here; I was reacting to the shameless repetition of discriminatory statistics in this section.  Thanks for saving a copy of this. I will see where I can work it in elsewhere.  These are not just my opinions.  They are facts based on 13 male and female contributors who wrote Sexually Aggressive Women, a book that among many others exposes rampant scientific and legal discrimation against male and female victims of female rapists.   Anacapa 00:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Victim-rapist genders 

message: sub catagories: hate crimes(against lgbt etc.), domestic violence
Just make sure there are distinctions between rape and homo/bi sexual victims.  Some hetero men are raped by men and some hetero women are raped by women.  We need to make these distinctions here as in the Rape of males section.
Anacapa 01:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: lgbtq

message: Please see incest article and comment here
Anacapa 01:37, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incest and child abuse

message: See the domestic violence article.  I would like to see marital rape here as long as we include how women rape men in marriage too.
Anacapa 01:42, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marital rape and domestic violence 

message: I want to see both male and female forms of rape studied here with no bias or double standards against men or women raped by women.  Just because female-male and female-female rape is almost unknown, taken with a wink and a nod, and grossly underreported does not mean it is any less serious to the victims.  I want to see us clean this article up and make it gender-balanced with no POV double standards.
Anacapa 01:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: non-gender-biased, non-double standard article on rape

message: I attempted to organized these sections so that the article flows with less confusion.  please comment and or offer suggestions.  Also please use the history to see specific edits.
Anacapa 02:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: type of rape/rape and gender

message: so i saw a comment on transgender being missing and decided to fill that in:
Transgender sexual assault
The Transgender Sexual Violence Project explores sexual violence against and within the transgender community. Intolerance by police and the general community discourages many victims from seeking help. In a survey of 89 people 11 were assaulted by a transgender person, 21 by a female and 50% did not seek medical care for a year or more. Only eight cases (9%) were reported to the police. 48% did not try to tell anyone at all.--12.211.21.87 06:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: transgender information

message: I changed titles to reflect the general content I saw in the sections below.   I mean no offense to anyone here but I insist on equitable 'treatment of all rape victims in this article.  Please balance these sections with resources for both genders or call them out as gender specific.  I know that rape is far from equal so I would expect more resources on male-female rape than on other types.  However, I do hope to see sources that fairly and proportionally represent all victims here with no attempts to silence uncomfortable female rape realities.
Anacapa 06:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: External links/ NPOV balance

message: I think the history of rape should include the introduction of rape crisis centers in the 1970's.  I plan to write that in soon.  Does anyone have suggestions for resources or wording?  Feel free to add it in before I do.  Thanks.
--12.211.21.87 22:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: History of rape and the 1970's

message: The chosen rape article is clearly trying far too hard not to offend, and therefore has not adequately performed its job in informing us about the multi-faceted subject that is rape. The article that was discarded is more effective (see: above). It may be blunt at times, but by merely creating articles with - seemingly - the sole intention of pleasing everyone, rather than actually analysing the concept of rape, the whole point of having a rape article is bypassed. We have to be less puritanical when considering 'controversial' articles, as often they tend to be the most effective.
Cue PC brigade…
:: I share your concern here.  Could you call out specific examples and note what (see: above) refers to.  I also see an unbalanced emphasis on victimhood here and yet for me victimhood is/was a stage not a destination.  I also know that some strong black women raped by men have a much stronger point of view than I see here.  How do we show both sides here? Anacapa 00:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Survivor thanks for these sources.  I am going to go check some of them out.  What do you suggest we add to this article?  Anacapa 04:58, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trying too hard not to offend.... 

message: I am working to add content, organize and clean up this section.  Any help with sources or NPOV would be welcome.  I am trying to include all the history of rhetoric on rape causes here as well since it has had a marked effect on rape-politics and gender attitudes.  By 'rhetoric', I mean (often outraged) speculation that is not grounded in peer reviewed science.  Several modern feminists have pointed out that Brownmiller's (power and control) rhetoric was just that...rhetoric (and dishonest to boot.) However, due to it's influence (rightly or wrongly) on rape politics and it's shameless repetition as a sound theory despite no sound scientific basis, I think it should be discussed here too.  I suggest a glance at the sections above on this topic to see what I mean here.  The Evolutionary theory of rape seems to have a bunch of holes in it too.  The Dark Side of Man introduces a chapter on rape causeality with a horrible anal rape of a woman by a man and then goes on to talk about reproduction as the cause of male-female rape, a ridiculous example of an author using his own evidence to invalidate his own theory.  To base rape politics, penalties and punishments and attitudes on false, politicized or just plain speculative causeality is criminal IHMO.  I hope this section will shatter some of these myths and show how the causes of rape have often been falsely claimed and falsely used for disengenous political advantage by all sides.  Please comment suggest how to handle such a controversial and politically loaded topic.Anacapa 06:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest you read his book then we can discuss this. Anacapa 05:03, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

text: In which countries?  Please provide citations.  Meanwhile, that change will be reverted until and unless citations are provided.  --Nlu (talk) 15:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Causes of rape section

message: Hi there,
I don't really see any spam in the external links section.  I think people have just done research and posted the links where they retreived the info in the links area.  I am VERY familiar with websites on this topic which relate to research and they look okay to me.  Some of the ones at the bottom on controversial topics are not authoritative resources.  Then again, controversial research will be that way before the experts attend to it.  I don't see it as spam.
Can we remove the notation?  I don't think that area is being misused so much as used very thoroughly.  Example: the marital rape section had references which i moved to the links area.  All the top links are reference materials a student could (and should) cite. I think it has bloomed a bit due to the attempt to make all topics cover all genders (male survivors specifically).  The whole article has expanded and become more diverse and larger.  In fact I find that there are often "growing pains" i.e. notations that a section has been created but not filled in.  This article has come a long way and has a long way to go.
thanks, --12.202.231.83 09:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  external links notation