Talk:Strategic operations of the Red Army in World War II

message: I primarily created this article because in the West, including Germany, there does not seem to be a systematic periodisation of the Eastern Front to the extent there is in USSR.--Mrg3105 (talk) 03:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Buckshot06. I appreciate your contribution, and I have Glanz's book, but that is his opinion, and not that of the Soviet military history school of thought. How Glantz makes his periodisation will undoubtedly be included in the article eventually, but the structure I have is for some 70 large and nearly 200 smaller operations that just don't fit well into the overall picture Glantz paints regardless of the respect I have for his work. Please bear with me as I build this up :o)--Mrg3105 (talk) 05:16, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was my impression that Glantz was merely mirroring the Soviet structure; otherwise I wouldn't have inserted the data. Your 'periodisation structure', by the way, is the second, winter campaign, and fits better there. Buckshot06 (talk) 06:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Buckshot06, Glantz was not mirroring Soviet Structure. I am still translating and making them publishable, but I have a spreadsheet for each campaign and their participating Fronts and Armies with hundreds of entires. The 'periodisation structure' is only there to illustrate the future structure of the whole and is not a part of the overall whole-war structure. I appreciate you are trying to help, but right now its not helping. I PROMISE all the operations will be there with all their Fronts and Armies for you to tack the Corps and Divisions onto. It will be a work of beauty, but please bear with me and ask first before you change anything (I am not immune to mistakes). I am going to undo your last until I am able to restore at a later stage. Eventually I will also insert the German 'equivalents' so the reader will have a frame of reference from both sides.--Mrg3105 (talk) 07:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right. Compromise. I won't muck around with your time periods - you're the expert there - if you won't change the links to the formations. To link them properly, you have to include Soviet Western Front - otherwise you'll get the Western Front of WW1 and WW2 - and Soviet Reserve Front and Soviet Southwestern Front. Also it might pay you to take a look at the general instruction at the bottom of each edit page 'If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it.' I'm working with your direction in mind, and I'm frustrated. Is there any reason why, for example, you insert the first winter offensive both as an example and to fill the section in, right now? Buckshot06 (talk) 07:35, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I didn't say do not submit it. It's at the bottom of every edit box, under the buttons and the wikimarkup symbols - just scroll down, and you'll find it. The example? My question is, why don't you leave it there as an example, but also insert it in its proper place - isn't that what you're going to do eventually - it's going to be there twice? And for heaven's sake, if it's an example campaign, consider calling it 'example of campaign in detail' rather than over-jargonisation which even I, as a specialist who might reasonably expect to understand, don't understand it at all! Best regards from over the ditch, and Happy Christmas, Buckshot06 (talk) 09:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Buckshot06. Ok, appreciate the advice. It was a little wordy, I agree. I don't keep Christmas, but I appreciate the sentiment :0)--Mrg3105 (talk) 09:37, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Creation of the article

message: The title seems a bit convoluted; I'd suggest something like Strategic operations of the Red Army in World War II. Kirill 05:59, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your suggestion Kirill. I actually wanted to capture both the strategic and the operational aspects of these operations, but maybe I can move the operational pat into the text. Can't remember how to change article namespace though--Mrg3105 (talk) 07:13, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Click on that 'move' tag right next to history along the top bar. Buckshot06 (talk) 09:14, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: Want to be sure I understand your intent here Mrg. You've change all the battles of Kharkov to their numeric numbering. Here you have a number of redlinks with different names, but referring to the same operations. You've been the primary editor on this page, so I wanted to ask you what you'd think of me inserting links to those operations - since all four of them do have articles. Buckshot06(prof) 10:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: How about this. YOU go and buy Keitel's fucking book in Irving's fucking translation and then YOU write the fucking articles based on that and see how same they look ok. You are so big on talk, but will not spend the money on the books, but the books have nothing. They are written for a perspective of a very senior officer in Berlin. SO, the articles you refer to are NOT same as those on this list. They are the German POV base on a single source, and I will tag them as such when I find the template. Then they will sit there for another year as stubs until someone tries to improve them using Glantz's Kharkov 1942 book. THIS entire sorry issue with these three articles is the sort of bullshit that drives people away from Wikipedia. Enjoy. I have taken all three off my watch list. All yours now, or whoever.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 11:14, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't find a clear answer in that torrent of profanity to my question, so I've gone ahead and set up the links. Discussion, hopefully without the repeated use of the f-word, welcome. I also saw your comment about research rather than compromise at the Belgrade article. Since wikipedia is a collaborative enterprise, it strikes me that everyone has to cooperate/compromise, at least in a limited way. Maybe you'd be better off establishing your own website should you wish to have everything exactly as you wish it without a single deviation? Buckshot06(prof) 11:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't you go and work on the Strategic operations of the Wehrmacht in World War II and you can have as many numbered articles as you like? Compromise on facts and sources? Is this your suggestion? I wonder if you got your degree by mail order.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 11:40, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Now you're really turning up the insults, as well as reverting changes which link clearly to the same events: First Battle of Kharkov was clearly 20-24 October 1941, and I checked the dates before I did so. The dates are the same both on this page and the Battle of Kharkov page, and this page specifically states it was the city, as it's subordinate to a bigger operation around the city. I can understand the reversions to the other links if the operations cover different periods and areas, but why for the first battle in 1941? Buckshot06(prof) 11:46, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

text: You've reverted my insertion again when the dates clearly indicate that it's the same operation. Would it be acceptable to you if I linked it under your currently redlinked title? Would that help? Strike that, see you've put a bolding for the German name. Buckshot06(prof) 01:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Kharkhov operations

message: The current dates of operations on the Narva do not make any sense. There was constant attack by three Soviet armies and three corps on Narva Town from February 2 to March 23, interrupted by the rasputitsa, and continued from June 7 to August 12. How come this is missing from the article? Erikupoeg (talk) 15:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Because this is a list of Soviet operations, the Germans calling it Battle of Narva. From the Soviet point of view the assault on Narva positions was a part of the last phase of the Leningrad-Novgorod Strategic Offensive Operation 14 January 1944 - 1 March 1944 (yet to be written), and continued by the Pskov-Ostov Offensive Operation 11 July 1944 - 31 July 1944 (yet to be written) to the south, at which point following the Battle of Narva - Battle of the Tannenberg Line (1944) 7 July - 19 September 1944 as a German operation, incorporating a short continuation of the Soviet Narva Offensive Operation 24 July 1944 - 30 July 1944  (yet to be written) against thee bridgehead, the German forces were forced to retreat in the face of being outflanked by the larger Baltic Strategic Offensive Operation 14 September 1944 - 24 November 1944--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 23:51, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

text: If there was a list of German operations, you could add there. For the Red Army it was a temporary breather after Leningrad, and what the Germans considered a continuation of Soviet attacks was really a continued pressure on the garrison and defences to prevent their withdrawal from the planned encirclement. Given the 2nd Shock Army moved off leaving one Army to maintain pressure on the Narva sector, it is just to insignificant at this time to have a separate entry/article given there are so many articles for larger operations lacking while I waste my time with time-wasting "discussions" by people who will never do the job, but want all the benefit of naming articles. For now, I suggest you just leave it as is--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 10:50, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Narva operations

message: The operation is currently listed with dates 10 March 1945 - 5 May 1945 and no ref. Here is a Polish article about the operation, which puts the start of the operation at 1 February.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  16:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Moravian-Ostrava Offensive Operation]] 

message: Am a casual user with an occasional typo-fixing desire. How do I do that for this page? Templates are evil... 212.188.108.44 (talk) 14:19, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing disabled because of templates? 

message: Unfortunately, two items labled Crimean Offensive on this page, one under the heading Winter Campaign of 1941-42, the other being the FIRST item under the heading of Summer Campaign of 1942, link NOT to the largely unsuccessful operations of 1941-42 under Timoshenko, but instead link to the final and successful operations of 1944 under Tolbukhin. Alas, I do not know how to fix this; if there is a Wikipedia article on the Soviet Crimean Offensives of 1941-42, I have not found it yet.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.205.141.26 (talk) 18:29, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect link for items labled Crimean Offensive for Winter 1941-42 and Summer 1942