Talk:2007 FIBA Americas Championship

message: Any television coverage announcements?  Kendanielone 19:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Score in Canada, I think… —MC 19:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You people can add it at the templates (just make sure the TV coverage are for competing nations in that game only) --Howard the Duck 15:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [Untitled]

message: Are we positive about the information being conveyed in the "Qualification" section?  Political geography 101: Mexico is part of the North American subcontinent, not Central America (not to be confused with Latin America, which is a non-geographical subdivision that does include Mexico).  That being said, it is entirely possible that as far as FIBA tournaments are concerned, Mexico plays in the Central America region.  I don't know, but if FIBA follows the standard subcontinental divisions, what we are stating there would be simply incorrect.  Redux 14:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See the FIBA Americas website, They group Mexico under "Central America;" only USA and Canada are at North America. --Howard the Duck 06:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's also not correct to say that it is "political geography 101" that Mexico is part of the North[ern] America subcontinent. There is widespread disagreement on this front, and although the convention in the USA is to reckon Mexico as part of North[ern] America subcontinent, the United Nations (for example) does not so consider it in its geoscheme. 76.10.24.245 05:21, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it is indeed a very basic fact.  Geoschemes are not necessarily a reliable source for this.  More often than not, they might reflect new, but far from being adopted, theories aimed at geographic "redistribution" based on (sometimes) geographic considerations and (more commonly) extra-geographic factors.  A common example is the inclusion/exclusion of Azerbaijan, Georgia and Armenia of the European continent.  There's a widespread claim that an extra-geographic criterion, namely that of cultural affinities, was used to include the three in Europe, when geographically they would not be in Europe.  Regardless of that, if you write in an essay that those are Asian countries, you'd get it wrong.  In the case of Mexico, all of the reliable sources will show that that country is in North America, including the highly-regarded, and usually preferred source on Wikipedia, the CIA factbook (google cache to simplify: look for the green-marked "north america" cue) — which is why our article states presently that Mexico is in North America.  Actually changing that would need to be done on a more complex level than theorizing in a book, possibly by the International Geographical Union.  I'm not aware of any serious movement aimed at removing Mexico from North America and placing it in Central America.  Redux 04:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe because Mexico is a part of Latin America that's why FIBA Americas grouped them with Central America? Or to provide Canada and the USA 2 automatic berths in this tournament... Anyway, here is a map of the world splintered into subregions as defined with UN, but FIBA doesn't always divide the way the UN does. --Howard the Duck 08:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We need to remember: the UN is primarily a political entity, and this kind of grouping might have been compiled in order to serve as a parameter for UN actions globe-wide.  Looking at the map, it is apparent that "shifting" Mexico from North America to Central America is not the only change made by this particular geoscheme in the standard continental subdivisions in the world: in Asia, a portion of countries that are part of Central Asia have been "colored" into Southern Asia (Iran, Afghanistan).About what actually concerns this article, FIBA is not the first sport-governing entity to overlook standard geographic locations in its divisions.  The most notable example I can think of comes from FIFA, where two South American Countries, Guyana and Suriname, play in the CONCACAF (Central America and Caribbean) zone, instead of the CONMEBOL (South America).  Those two do have a coastline in the Caribbean, but then again so does Venezuela, which plays in the COMENBOL, because, well, it is in South America.I wouldn't say that FIBA was looking to benefit the US and Canada particularly, especially since, if memory serves me well (and correct me if I'm wrong), the entity has been accused in the past of being Euro-centric, but not US-centric (on the contrary, actually).  Redux 13:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually FIBA has made it sure that the U.S. qualifies to the world tourneys no matter what (hence the wildcard tournament). However, I think FIBA uses the cultural factor, since I'd imagine the Mexicans have more in common than Panamanians than Canadians and Americans. While the three Guiana South American countries are more culturally a part of the Caribbean (I think Suriname is a part of the West Indian cricket team), and so forth. Even the Aussie soccer team is in Asia rather than Oceania. --Howard the Duck 13:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Boo the nitpicking :p French Guiana isn't a part of FIBA. I dunno when FIBA started these zones (the Asian zone started on 1960, but Asian teams started participating in the 1936 Olympics). Even North and South America are combined; FIFA doesn't divide them. --Howard the Duck 13:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Qualification

message: Can anyone do the squads article? For example:
These are the team rosters of the 10 teams participating in the FIBA Americas Championship 2007.
======
--Howard the Duck 08:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Squads 

message: --Howard the Duck 08:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: {{bk|Argentina}}

message: If I am not mistaken, the Virgin Islands team in this tournament is the U.S. Virgin Islands. It is not a unified team representing both the U.S. and British Virgin Islands, correct? If so, is there a way we can make "U.S." appear before the name? I don't know how to do it since it appears to be some kind of pre-set icon. 76.10.24.245 18:46, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: FIBA calls them simply as "Virgin Islands," the UK ones are the "British Virgin Islands." --Howard the Duck 03:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not just FIBA.  In our articles on the Olympics, they appear as just "Virgin Islands" as well.  Also similarly, the British Virgin Islands do not appear in the participating countries list.  They did take part in the 2007 Pan-Am Games though, but those are governed by ODEPA.  It may be that in most instances the British Virgin Islands are not permitted to participate separate from the UK — noticing that in the case of the Pan-Am Games, the UK does not participate, which may be what makes it possible for the British Virgin Islands to appear separately.  In the case of Basketball, however, the UK plays in the European Zone, so there might be some kind of political hurdle for the British Islands to play separately.  Does anyone know if they even played in tournaments that served as qualifiers for this event?  If they did, then it could indeed be a problem, since not only is the icon inaccurate, but it also provides a link that is not ideal — it is red right now, but it is pointing to "Virgin Islands national basketball team", whereas if the British Islands also have a national Basketball team, we would need to make the link more specific, to "US Virgin Islands...".  That would need to be done by editing the template though, and not by editing this particular article.  Redux 13:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually the British Virgin Islands do participate separately in the Olympics. (see British Virgin Islands at the 2004 Summer Olympics) —MC 00:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The British Virgin Islands is a full FIBA member. I don't know if they did participate in FIBA-sanctioned tourneys, maybe basketball tourneys within the Caribbean. (Another comparison is South Korea/Republic of Korea, FIBA calls them simply as "Korea," while North/DPR of Korea is "DPR of Korea".) --Howard the Duck 13:35, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Humm, then it would indeed be a good idea to alter, if anything, the link being given in the icon, to "US Virgin Islands national basketball team".  As for the link's and the icon's appearance, if FIBA calls the US Virgin Islands just "Virgin Islands" and the British Virgin Islands ...err... "British Virgin Islands", then that's how we ought to show it as well.  Redux 13:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dunno about that since at all times, what appears on the screen must have the same link. So if FIBA calls the American half of the Virgin Islands as "Virgin Islands", we must call them as such. --Howard the Duck 13:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

text: It's also possible that the FIBA website only says "Virgin Islands" because they're the only Virgin Islands grouping with a team at the tournament, or perhaps they are sloppy, or perhaps it's a mistake (it doesn't take long reading FIBA's English-language materials to see that they don't sound like they were drafted by a native English speaker, at least to me). If the team that is here is really the U.S. Virgin Islands, I see no reason not to make the link read that as well, since it is more informative and also happens to be correct. You raise an interesting point though, which is: how did the Virgin Islands qualify for this event? Indeed, how did any of the teams? Canada and North America qualified automatically, but a review of the FIBA Americas website did not make it clear to me what the precise structure of the sub-zonal tournaments was leading up to this point. I get the impression there was a South American event, and some sort of Central American event and a Caribbean event, but I also got the impression there was some kind of combined Central/Caribbean event as well. Insight into how the U.S. Virgin Islands qualified may also provide insight into what to do with this question. 35.10.246.164 19:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I honestly don't know what to do. FIFA uses Korea Republic for South Korea, Korea DPR for the North Korea, Congo DR for the country formerly known as Zaire and Republic of Ireland for Ireland south of the NI border. On the other hand, FIBA uses "USA" for United States, DR of Congo (simplified as DR Congo here in Wikipedia), Korea for South Korea and DPR of Korea (simplified as DPR Korea here). I'd say we'd use what FIBA calls them. --Howard the Duck 00:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: FIFA also uses "USA" for United States… I agree to use whatever they are called by FIBA. —MC 01:05, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't want to turn this into a row and I'm not going to voice a strong objection. I would say, though, that I see no substantive content to the labels that FIBA may-or-may-not have assigned the teams. There are no issues of trademarks or branding or other officialdom that correspond with (say) expressing PGA TOUR in all-caps. They are just countries that are sending national teams to the tournament. The name of the country/jurisdiction is the only thing that seems particularly relevant to me, because whatever FIBA (or FIFA or FINA or FIVA) chooses to call a country internally, the country's name is the country's name, and the team represents the country, not a member "club" of FIBA that is closely associated with that country. There is room for latitude here; USA is just as good as United States of America, just as Mexico is just as good as United Mexican States (a counterexample would be the obvious but common mistake of equating the United Kingdom with Great Britain or (shudder) "England"). It is possible that, at the margin, there may be some substantive content to the label chosen (e.g., "Chinese Taipei" in some circles, "Taiwan" in others, depending on one's brand of political correctness), but I don't see how that's the case here at all. The label used by FIBA is not sufficiently informative, which is why we've been having this discussion in the first place: it started when I asked if this squad was a unified team that purported to represent the entire Virgin Islands, or only the U.S. Virgin Islands (in reality, it's my understanding almost all of the players on the team substantially consider themselves as being from New York). I see no issue with bucking whatever label FIBA may have chosen (if they actually affirmatively chose it at all) when we would only add more information; if it really becomes an issue, we could put it in parentheses, as is the practice in many cases with a newspaper whose town does not appear in the title. E.g., (U.S.) Virgin Islands, as compared to The (Toledo) Blade newspaper. 76.10.24.245 02:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: IMHO, in FIBA-related tournaments, we call them as what FIBA calls them. That's why Template:Country data has fields for optional names such as this. Or else, you may was well petition WP:FOOTBALL to call "Korea Republic" to "South Korea" or "Republic of Ireland" simply as "Ireland." There's also a flag and dab notices if ever an article is created so there's no confusion. (In a related issue, the IOC calls the U.S. Virgin Islands also as "Virgin Islands", since FIBA follows IOC naming conventions, except for FIBA countries which aren't IOC members) --Howard the Duck 03:07, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The only cases where Wikipedia deviates from IOC/FIBA/FIFA standards is when the official IOC/FIBA/FIFA name is long and there's no need for a long name since they're the only ones using that, like "Iran" instead of "Islamic Republic of Iran" or "IR Iran". --Howard the Duck 06:07, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Agree with Howard. —MC 15:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  See also the CIA World Factbook entries for the U.S. Virgin Islands and British Virgin Islands —MC 15:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Virgin Islands

message: The quarterfinal standings should not include results vs. teams that did not reach the quarterfinal stage.  Thus Canada should be listed as carrying forward 1 win and 2 losses for 4 points.  Joel225sp 00:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you are right. --Howard the Duck 03:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Results carried forward 

message: So, just looked at the schedule now and realized if the US beats Uruguay, Uruguay beats Brazil, and Puerto Rico beats Canada there would be a 4-way tie (at a 3-4 record) for places 3-6. Since 3-4 get in the Semis and 5 gets a wild-card, how this tie is broken is absolutely critical. 
Anyone have any idea how this would work? (Would it be h2h against all other tied teams first. What would happen if 2 are 2-1 against the others while 2 are 1-2...how would places 3/4 and 5/6 be sorted out?) 
I should note that out of the 3 (as of now) current requirements for this to happen, only Uruguay over Brazil would really be considered an upset. So this is quite a possible scenario.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.111.6 (talk) 02:55, August 30, 2007 (UTC) 
:These are the current standings among the tied teams:
:
Team	Pts.	W	L	PF 	PA 	Avg.
    	3   	1	1	176	157	1.121
    	3   	1	1	162	183	0.994
    	3   	1	1	170	174	0.977
    	3   	1	1	150	164	0.915
:If they're all at 3-4, it'll be
:
Team	Pts.	W	L	H2H
    	5   	2	1	82-79
    	5   	2	1	79-82
    	4   	1	2	75-67
    	4   	1	2	67-75
:In other words, whoever wins on their games tomorrow will advance. --Howard the Duck 07:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  4-way tiebreaker? 

message: Apologies to whomever provided the quarter-by-quarter scoring details, but I find the extra sets of numbers below the final game score rather eye-distracting, not to mention superfluous (at least for this level of competition). If there was a vote, I'd vote to get rid of the quarter-by-quarter scores. Mwlin1 18:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. It adds very little, IMO. 76.10.24.245 19:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Nah, I'd say keep. Scoring by quarter is like the equivalent of the goals scored on soccer. Keep off the scoring leaders though. Lets just add them at the semis. --Howard the Duck 00:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's comparable to goals scored in soccer because in soccer, the paucity of scoring makes each goal a significant game event. In basketball, they're constantly pouring in a few more. 68.251.174.15 02:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The paucity of soccer scoring is true, so the quarter scoring is important, since they're only 4 figures. It's also an idea how the game went (like if a team led all the way, if a team made a run to catch up/pull away, etc.) since it seems no one would give game summaries. --Howard the Duck 03:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Scoring by quarter?

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