Talk:September 11 attacks/Archive 7

message: By the way, where do we discuss reversion of talk pages? We need talk talk pages I guess, with SheikYerBooty around lumping all these sections back into one long ramble. Going to be hell to pay when it comes time to archive, it's much easier to rename the sections rather than delete them and inevitably have to add them back in later. Measure once and cut twice, SheikYerBooty, that's what my dad always told me. - Plautus satire 05:44, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Reversion of talk pages?

message: Why is there a link to Globalisation?? It doesn't seem particularly relevant and should be removed. pir 04:54, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. There's nothing on that article that refers to 9/11. -- ChrisO 20:41, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

text: SheikYerBooty, are you for real? Is there a person back there or are you on autopilot? - Plautus satire 05:46, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Links to Wikipedia articles 

message: Looking at recent edits, I think too much meaning is being placed on "Why 9/11"? Especially remember that, in most of the world, 9/11/2001 is 11.9.2001. I think that is true in Saudi Arabia, country of most of the hijackers, even assuming that would run to the common calendar rather than the Arabic one for arcane meaning.
:In most parts of Europe it is written as 11-9-2001. Either way, since the / is not smart for use in URLs, I would choose 9-11 as the better notation. Julius 17:06, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the fact that some of the rescue vehicles were out of town was one of the theories. I guess there could have been more vehicles or something? Mabye its the absence of the type of vehicles required for skyscrapers? Perl 23:53, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I really doubt that. NYC has a HUGE emergency service department and they wouldn't send a significant number of any emergency vehicles out of town. The real problem (emergency services-wise) is that, above a certain floor level, you can't do anything from the outside of skyscrapers. That's why NYC firefighters are required to be so fit. Tapes of radio transmissions from the FDNY in the building showed that some of the firefighters actually made it to one of the floors (I think in Tower Two) where one of the planes hit--running up 60-odd flights of stairs. Cecropia 00:00, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: Do you have a cite for that "theory"?  We're an encyclopedia, not a rumor column.  Let's only keep theories that are verifiable in established primary or secondary sources. Anthony DiPierro 15:36, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why on 9/11? 

message: Please justify removal of this paragraph:
:Almost immediately after the demolition of the World Trade Center, the FBI released the names of nineteen men it claimed had been on the planes used in the coordinated attack . As early as September 17, 2001, reports began to surface that many of the men identified as suicide hijackers were still alive and may have been victims of identity theft  . Although FBI director Robert Mueller did initially acknowlege that the identity of several of the suicide hijackers was in doubt , the FBI still identifies them by the names they were using at the time
Newer version:
:Almost immediately after the demolition of the World Trade Center, the FBI released the names of nineteen men it claimed had been on the planes used in the coordinated attack . 
:As early as September 17, 2001, reports began to surface that the indentities of at least four of the men identified as suicide hijackers were in doubt.   The Telegraph of the UK was the first to interview four men whose personal details, including place and date of birth, name, and occupation, were listed on the FBI's list of hijackers.  
This entire passage was put there by Plautus Satire (now banned for a year by the way) as part of some sort of implication that at least some of the Sep 11 hijackers were still alive and there was some kind of FBI conspiracy in which false names were knowingly sent out by the FBI - or something like that anyway. It is a bit hard to follow exactly what he was trying to say, but its reliability and neutrality must be held in doubt. Once again, we can do without that kind of POV thing in this article. Period. 
Putting this aside, there is the question of relevancy. What we have listed here is a stage in FBI investigations that took place after the events of the day, in which it was established that some of the hijackers had suspect IDs. Nothing more, nothing less. This is not really relevant to an area that gives earlier revelations as to what organisation was behind the attacks. The newer version quoted above is certainly better, but the irrelevancy remains. Perhaps this should go to the Sep 11 timelines.
Actually, the whole "earlier revelations" bit does bother me, because it reads more like a subjective "it was America's fault!" essay than a NPOV account of  evidence uncovered and statements issued as to who was behind the attacks. But my main problem is just that first paragraph.
BTW, I'm also puzzled about this section's title- the hijackers were victims?? How does that make sense?  Arno 10:11, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible misidentification of victims

message: Is the symbolic meaning of 9/11 discussed anywhere in Wikipedia? Obviously, mass killing was not the only purpose of the perpetrators. What they attacked were symbols of America's economic (WTC) and military (Pentagon) dominance (they probably also wanted to hit the White House - symbol of America's political power).
--Kpalion 15:45, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Symbolic meaning of 9/11

message: Recently I suggested replacing one paragraph with another. A few days later, when no one had yet objected, I made the change. Afterwards, Arno objected and reverted it. The two paragraphs, before and after, are above.
As I see it, there are still inaccuracies in the paragraph as it now stands, and I think they ought to be fixed.
First of all, Arno directed me to the following fascinating article. It reveals that Binalshibh was selected to be a pilot, but that he couldn't get into the U.S. and had to be replaced. Only afterwards were the other hijackers selected. The article doesn't support the notion that "there were early plans to have 20 hijackers". I suspect the "20 highjackers" idea is an invention by the press. I don't know of any evidence that al-Qaeda considered 20 to be better than 19 or 21. So I'd recommend references to "the role of 20th hijacker" be removed.
Second, the paragraph as it now stands baldly states "Zacarias Moussaoui was considered for the role of the 20th hijacker, but plans to include him were never finalized, as the al-Qaeda hierarchy had doubts about his reliability." That doesn't seem to be the case. I know of no evidence that Moussaoui was involved in any way with 9/11. The FBI no longer asserts Moussaoui was involved in the 9/11 attacks. Why is it stated as a fact?
I'd recommend replacing the paragraph with something factual we can agree on. And I'd recommend that no one unilaterally revert it afterwards.
Here's my suggestion:
:Senior al-Qaeda officials have revealed that an additional pilot, Ramzi Binalshibh, was originally intended to take part in the attacks. When he was repeatedly denied entry into the US, a replacement pilot was found. Zacarias Moussaoui was previously considered to be an attempted 9/11 hijacker, but the Justice department no longer believes he was involved with this plot. (source) There is additional sketchy evidence that other planes may have been targetted for hijacking, but no solid evidence has emerged.
What does everyone think? Can this be improved?
Quadell 16:55, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds a lot better than what is there currently. Mdchachi 18:24, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: I think this paragraph is better then what is currently there but I would remove the last sentence. I think rumours should go in the 911 rumour article, not in this one. Steven jones 02:38, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Part 1

message: I removed the following:
" In addition, Larry Silvertstein, who held a seven-week-old lease on One and Two World Trade Center, claimed in an interview that he, jointly with the New York Fire Department, made the decision to deliberately demolish Seven World Trade Center, also known as the Solomon Building, which he also owned, and which was then the headquarters of the crisis and disaster command center for the mayor of New York City."
While the popular suject of alternate theories concerning 9-11, this is not an accepted fact. For one, the FEMA report contradicts it. At the very least it cannot go in the article at the top as a fact. Perhaps later in a deeper discussion of both sides. Rmhermen 04:16, May 26, 2004 (UTC)
"In a stunning and belated development concerning the attacks of 9/11 Larry Silverstein, the controller of the destroyed WTC complex, stated plainly in a PBS documentary that he and the FDNY decided jointly to demolish the Solomon Bros. building, or WTC 7, late in the afternoon of Tuesday, Sept. 11, 2001."www.prisonplanet.com/011704wtc7.html]
"This admission appeared in a PBS documentary originally aired in Sept. of 2002 entitled "America Rebuilds". Mr Silverstein's comments came after FEMA and the Society of Civil Engineers conducted an extensive and costly investigation into the curious collapse of WTC 7. The study specifically concluded that the building had collapsed as a result of the inferno within, sparked, apparently, by debris falling from the crumbling North Tower."
"Larry Silverstein, the leaseholder of the World Trade Center complex, stood to gain $500 million, and the federal government gave the order to destroy WTC7 late in the afternoon of September 11, 2001 (InfoWars article). Silverstein's revelation is on the PBS documentary 'America Rebuilds' (MP3 audio file) and a cleanup program for building 6 (MP3 audio file)."www.prisonplanet.com/pullit.mp3]www.prisonplanet.com/pullit2.mp3]
"Check out this RealVideo clip from the PBS documentary, "America Rebuilds." In it, Larry Silverstein, the leaseholder on the World Trade Center complex in Manahattan, admits that WTC 7 was "pulled," that is, intentionally demolished:"("UPDATE: Higher-res mpg on another server")
"You can hear Silverstein say this by downloading VestigialConscience.com/PullIt.mp3 - HERE*."
"In addition, we received communications from Mr. Jeremy Baker expressing concern that WTC 7 was in fact purposely demolished by its owner Larry Silverstein at 5:20 p.m. on 911. As evidence, Mr. Baker provides a PBS documentary that was aired on September 2002 titled "America Rebuilds". In the documentary Larry Silverstein is heard saying, "I remember getting a call from the fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.""
"Mr. Silverstein's comments stand in direct contradiction to the
findings of the extensive FEMA report. They even negate Kevin
Spacey's narrative in the very documentary in which they appear;
"WTC7 fell after burning for 7 hours." If it had been generally
known that the building was "pulled" wouldn't Mr. Spacey have
phrased it that way?"
I'm curious. What makes you say that it's not an established fact? FEMA disagrees? Larry Silverstein said he demolished his own building. If FEMA disagrees perhaps they can explain why Larry Silverstein lied as well. Is Larry Silverstein a liar? Is that your contention? That the FEMA investigation overrules Larry Silverstein's recollections from that day? Energybone 05:49, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The only fact cited in this lengthy collection of blog quotes etc. is that they say a PBS documentary says that Silverstone said that he let WTC 7 be destroyed intentionally. So, in the article it could be stated that "numerous web sites and blogs cite a PBS documentary called "America rebuild" in which WTC leaseholder Larry Silverstone is said to state that he let the WTC 7 be destroyed intentionally" (or something similar). Everything else wouldn't be fact, but opinion-presented-as-fact accoding to our NPOV policy. -- till we ☼☽ | Talk 18:33, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

text: Please point me to anywhere were Silverstein claims he had the building "demolished". Any quote from Silverstein saying "demolished"? Anywhere? Rmhermen 21:04, May 26, 2004 (UTC)
No web links maintained by PBS do, but this video may: http://shop.pbs.org/products/AREB901/ - It is temporairly out of stock. WhisperToMe 21:09, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: WTC 7