Talk:Israeli salad

message: Israeli Salad need not be chopped too fine, and most often includes fine diced onions, preferably red. Israelis of Hungarian origin add also garlic. The seasoning includes black pepper and salt too.
The more finely chopped salad described in the article is the one referred to as "salat Aravi", i.e. Arab salad, which is characterized by being very finely chopped.
I have lived in Israel, and "Salat" always means finely diced salad. Can anyone find a better picture that is actually cut small?
The onion is optional. Diced raw tomatoes and unpeeled cucumbers is a basic Israeli salad, and that's what you'll get on the side in many Israeli cafes over here in NYC.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.116.101 (talk) 21:42, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Israeli vs. Arab Salad

message: sorry. i didnt realize there already was an Israeli Salad article. If anyone can delete this, that would be great. thanks. Ilikefood 20:57, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Israeli Salad now redirects here, so job seems to have been acomplished. Nahum 04:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: whoops.

message: Hi  it's "Salad Shirazi" and not a "Israeil Salad" with simple search on Google can be know, please change the article title or move that, thanks 𝕬𝖋𝖑𝖆𝖓𝖙𝖜𝖔 11:43, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: See Shirazi salad. --Off-shell (talk) 19:40, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Salad Shirazi

message: do not move: see WP:SNOWBALL Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:37, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 

message: A new article Arabic salad has just been written. Please visit it and express your editorial judgment. --Zlerman (talk) 06:07, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's fine with me. Maybe it will help stop the vandalizing of this page.--Gilabrand (talk) 07:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd agree with Gilabrand, that hopefully it will stop the vandalizing of Israeli salad. Maybe this is just wishful thinking though, as there seems to have been an uptick of vandalism recently involving the removal of Israeli/Jewish/Hebrew references from a number of food articles. On a side note, it looks like parts of Arabic salad might have been copied from Israeli salad;  for instance, "salad shirazi" is in bold text, just like it had been in Israeli salad until recently. --Nsaum75 (talk) 22:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Shalom Ibrahim4048, I have no objection to the Arabic salad article. Our editorial opinion was asked for by Zlerman, so I simply stated the obvious - that it appeared sections were copied & pasted from Israeli salad. --Nsaum75 (talk) 00:59, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arabic salad 

message: do not move: see WP:SNOWBALL - Epson291 (talk) 03:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Salat aravi is only one of its names in Israel.  There are others.  This proposal is essentially no different than that discussed recently (please see "Requested move", above), which resulted in a strong consensus opposed. It would seem pointless to pursue further. Hertz1888 (talk) 02:09, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Strongly Oppose -- Israeli salad was created on 9 May 2006, Arabic salad was created three years later, on 3 March 2009, liberally borrowing text from the existing article on Israeli salad. If any merging is to be done, then Arabic salad should be merged into Israeli salad, and not as suggested. --Zlerman (talk) 02:58, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with Hertz1888 that this has already been discussed and rejected as part of the previous move proposal (see "Requested move" above). The merge proposal tag should be removed from the main article forthwith. --Zlerman (talk) 03:58, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Strongly Oppose -- It seems pointless to persue this, given the recent attempt to rename it failed unanimously. Also, the recently added photo in the Arabic salad article seems to contain lettuce.  Israeli salad does not contain lettuce.  --Nsaum75 (talk) 04:57, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Oppose - While it is clear that Israeli salad is a knock-off of Arabic salad, it should not be merged into Arabic salad. In fact, the article Arabic salad should be renamed Arabic salads and contain sections for each Arabic salad, such as Fattoush, Tabouleh, etc., etc. The Israeli salad article should mention that what is marketed as Israeli salad in New York delis is in fact Palestinian rural salad. That it was appropriated, like many other foodstuffs by Israelis, does not change the fact that it exists as something people refer to by that name.Tiamuttalk 13:13, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Strongly oppose and speedy close - This was just discusssed and unanimously rejected - Epson291 (talk) 23:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Oppose per Tiamut and Epson291. Ian Pitchford (talk) 19:39, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment: Reading these two articles suggests to me that the difference between Arab salad and Israeli salad is the inclusion of onion (mentioned in the Arabic recipe, but not in the Israeli one).  I like to put a lot of cilantro and cumin or za'atar in my salad (mentioned in neither article), so I guess what I eat is neither, and requires yet a third article. --Ravpapa (talk) 17:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger proposal

message: While there is no question that in English the name "Israeli salad" is far and away more common than Arab salad-salat aravi  the fact that finely diced salad composed primarily of tomatoes and cucumbers is a regin-wide traditon, albeit not an ancient one.  There were no tomatoes in the Levant before Columbus, which is part of what makes assertions that this is an old Arab tradition so silly.  Pace Joseph Massad, it would be interesting to know when tomatoes began to be cultivated gy fellahin.  I would bet on the late nineteenth century, possibly not until the  twentieth.  Raw diced salad is a highly improbably Mediterranean pre-modern peasant dish.  Knowing some culinary history makes this debate very amusing.  Nevertheless, we might consider merging into an article entitled something like Middle Eastern chopped salad.  And discuss naming traditions and who does - and does not - add onions.Historicist (talk) 02:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: While not doubting the merits of a possible merge into an article about Middle Eastern chopped salad, I do have concerns that such a merger would result in the very outcome that the two recent renaming and merging RfC were attemping to achieve -- and that is selectively denying or minimalizing certain cultural contributions to a food.  I have been following and editing Middle Eastern food articles for quite some time now, and I have watched as editors have attempted to find creative ways to use Wikipedia's own "laws" regarding sourced information to try to either demonize certain cultures' contributions and adoptions of foods or turn seemingly innocent articles about mashed chickpeas into political statements about the Arab-Israeli conflict. (See here and here)  --Nsaum75 (talk) 10:37, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good Lord.  Truly absurd.  And the history of Israeli salad is extremely poorly sourced.  I suspect that the date of cultivation of tomatoes in the region is known.  It would put a very firm limit on how "ancient" this typical food of the Palestinian peasants can possibly be.  It is almost inconceivable that they were grown in the region before the nineteenth century.  And would not be surprising if they were introduced well after the first aliyah.Historicist (talk) 00:49, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The politicization of food is absurd. In fact, several middle eastern foods have made it onto the  WP:LAME list (scroll down to Hummus & friends) after repeated edit wars by editors on both sides of the Arab-Israeli conflict.  --Nsaum75 (talk) 02:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the chuckle, and for the insight into the mad world of wikipedia edit wars.Historicist (talk) 16:28, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Middle Eastern chopped salad

message: I've dismantled the "Political contention" section, merging its content into the "History" section. I don't think that labelling the section this way is in line with WP:NPOV. The two individuals quoted are an Israeli food editor and a Palestinian academic who both say essentially the same thing - that Israeli salad is actually Arab or Palestinian. No contention there. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who says otherwise actually. Tiamuttalk 19:26, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. As currently worded, I am OK with the merge.  The political contention of a specific foodstuff is part of its history, so it is fitting to merge them in this instance. --Nsaum75 (talk) 19:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm glad you agree, and thanks for restoring the material earlier on. Tiamuttalk 20:08, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

text: no it does not it is a WP:FRINGE so you can say as many times as you want that it is the truth but that does not make it reality. this trying to politicize wikipedia in every way possible, definitely does not belong in article about food. LibiBamizrach (talk) 22:15, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: How is it fringe? What other sources contradict these two sources? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:23, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Merged material into history section

message: I have to say - being Israeli, I don't really see what's all the fuss about. In Israel the salad is called - as mentioned in the article - "vegetable salad", "chopped salad" (common) and "Arab salad" (common, unique). No one calls it here "Israeli salad", and no one has any claims of authenticity on it or on half a dozen other dishes, however popular (in Israel) and identifiably-Israeli they are. On another note - the whole topic to me seems a bit petty, if not argumentative and counter-NPOV.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.138.86.245 (talk) 00:51, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Epilogue

message: Please do not remove documented information as you did here , you have no consensus for its removal and it is important to show the appropriation that took place.  --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:35, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Censorship?  Aren't we being a little quick here with the accusations? I suggest following the advice of Tiamut at Talk:Hummus#Controversy, specifically in regard to using this quote without the last line. Hertz1888 (talk) 18:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "Wikipedia:Quote#When_not_to_use_quotations" states that quotes should not be  used when "the quotation is being used to  substitute rhetorical language in place of more neutral, dispassionate  tone preferred for encyclopedias. This can be a backdoor method of  inserting a non-neutral  treatment of a controversial subject into Wikipedia's narrative on the  subject, and should be avoided.  It appears that this may be occurring in this instance, as has been the case at other articles with this same quote. Furthermore the quote is giving the opinion of one person interviewed for the article, not the opinion of the article itself.  --nsaum75¡שיחת!‎ 19:13, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

text: I have tried to rewrite the disputed paragraphs in a way that might be palatable to everyone. I suppose now everyone will be mad at me. Ah, well. --Ravpapa (talk) 07:18, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted. Your changes are OR and SYNTH. Tiamuttalk 07:59, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

text: You are both right. Much better to edit war endlessly over the section. Adds to overall credibility of the Wikipedia. --Ravpapa (talk) 07:11, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Much better for the credibility of wikipedia to let editors remove sourced historical content from articles without being able to back up the reason for its removal on the talkpage and then re write texts so it doesn't follow the source. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:53, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

text: Dear, Arab scholars during the 7th-9th centuries made many mathematical and astronomical discoveries while advancing human knowledge, that you should hardly defend their salads as contributions to humanity. No need in drama or conspiracy theories. 89.138.1.56 (talk) 23:07, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

text: Not everything that doesn't suit your political world view is necessarily censorship. Regarding the Golan heights - they ARE part of Israel at the moment, and are recognized by many states as such. Nevertheless, even if you will refer to it as Syrian territory, the wineries and vineyards are certainly Israeli - a whole industry that was non-existent there at the time of Syrian control. 89.138.1.56 (talk) 22:59, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  censorship 

message: Gilisa, No one has said Gil Hovav is historical authority, he is a food editor and its presented as from him. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:31, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed! Edit warring is unproductive. NickCT (talk) 16:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Food editor Gil Hovav 

message: In Israel, the vegetables are not finely chopped and onion is added, peppers are sometimes also added (bell pepper usually at morning and chili peppers while eating a grilled meat).
Vinegar made of red wine, pomegranate or date (depending on which region you live) sometimes replaces the Lemon Juice.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.182.221.237 (talk) 16:08, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Israelis refer to this as Israeli Salad. When served in an Arab restaurant, seasoned in a particular manner, and diced finely (as opposed to bigger cubes) it is called Arab salad - see hewiki.Icewhiz (talk) 18:38, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israeli salad is distinct from Arab salad 

message: This is Shirazi Salad that originally was made in Iran 2001:56A:F6B6:6100:3005:74BA:B936:192D (talk) 03:06, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 04:37, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 October 2017 

message: :: Gil Hovav, Israeli food editor and chef, as History. negation of israel culture, as if it was palestinian. No, there is lot of diced salad, it doesnt mean it's the same salad. Some honest people here? Or everyone is terrorized or ignorant?  --Laseitainravi (talk) 22:04, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propaganda 

message: There is no such thing as "Israeli salad". This salad is a copy of the famous and historical Shirazi Salad that comes from Iran.
If UAE decided to one day culturally appropriate Pizza and call it "Arab Pizza", it'd be equally absurd as "Israeli Salad". Do you understand? 
Also, watch this and go to 03:20 to find out who made this article. https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=201&v=4xl30Re1EUI&
:Please provide references to reliable sources that support your assertions. Similar dishes can have different names and constitute discrete topics on Wikipedia. This is commonplace. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:27, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Chopped salads made with tomatoes and cucumbers are a relatively modern innovation, emerging throughout the Levant and the Middle East including Iran in the late 19th century. Tomatoes are not long-standing culinary ingredients in any of these countries or cultures. Tomatoes as food emerged in southern Mexico about 1500 years ago and they were unknown in this region of the world until modern times. There is no evidence that anyone appropriated anything, but rather that this is a type of salad that became popular almost simultaneously in many countries in that region within the last 150 years as tomatoes became popular in those countries. Nobody is arguing that tomato dishes worldwide are cultural appropriation from Mexican cuisine. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:42, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Instead of removing it, we should "teach the controversy" regarding the dish's origins.FrankForAllAndBirds (talk) 13:00, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  This whole article must be removed, it is cultural appropriation and cultural theft