Talk:Islam in China

message: I think there is an error. I highly doubt that there are 1.2 billion Muslims in China. I don't know the correct figure. Could the author have meant 'million'?
:Folks, if we call one "Muslim" by FAITH ONLY, then I would believe AT LEAST 50% Hui in China are NOT Muslims. --Henrysh 19:43, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article says 2 percent of the total population of China which is 1.2 billion. In any case, the whole article needs to be rewritten. There is much more to say about Islam in China OneGuy 03:35, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: That source suggests that the CIA World Factbook is used as its source. The Factbook says the Muslim population is 1%-2% - that's around 20 million. Martin Jensen 10:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: If there is no critique at all involved then I refuse to believe a word of it. Every good article has cited critics and debates related to the article in topic. This is to give a more reflected view of the case and to not make it seem like propaganda.
84.209.4.79 01:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is there no critique added to the main page about Islam in China? 

message: Hello, I am looking to organize a WikiProject focusing on creating and expanding articles relating to the Uyghurs, including their history, cultural life (including Islamic practices), politics (separatist movements past and present, overseas disapora, etc), as well as information about the Xinjiang area more broadly. I'm fairly new to Wikipedia so any help interested parties can offer on this undertaking would be much appreciated, thanks! --MC MasterChef 23:29, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Invitation to join [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Uyghurs of Western China]] 

message: The article says there is no record of Chinese making the Hajj before 1861. Didn't Zheng He make a side trip to Mecca on his last voyage? 
ςפקιДИτς 02:30, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Hajj]] 

message: The Arab and Persian immigrants introduced polo, their cuisine, their musical instruments ... coincidentally, polo is not just a sport, but also a rice dish (the word itself is cognate to pilaf). Just to make things even more confusing, both the sport and the dish trace their origins to Central Asia. History records that the sport was popular in China around this time, but does anyone know about the dish? =) cab 15:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tang Dynasty 

message: I have made a section listing general chinese islamic male/female names. It would be great if someone with the knowlege would expand it. Jidan 19:36, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  General Chinese Islamic male/female Names 

message: Stop giving out faulty information of Muslims in China. There are probably three different citations on the number of Muslims that constitute China's religious demographics; and all three give very DIFFERENT numbers, ranging from 20 million to 200 million. Please give more accurate sources next time. Thanks.
the thing is that the populatin in china is speculative we should use all our resorces to clarifythat Madman 0014 10:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion, only statistics from credible or "official" sources should be used, such as the US Department of State's report on International Religious Freedom, CIA World Fact Book, United Nations Reports on Religious Populations...  All these bunch of different statistics from websites posted by Madman 0014 just seems so not neutral and full of agendas. --Indefinitevirtue 15:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Somebody keeps bringing back the totally fanciful 100 million figure from the BBC, and then saying "some sources" when in fact the BBC is the only source for such an extremely high figure. The BBC figure is totally fictional, and not supported by any source or even citation to credible evidence. I wanted to revert the article but instead just edited this claim once again so that nobody assumes automatically that there is a basis for the BBC figure.--Mack2 15:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

text: But this argument assumes that the counts in 1938  and 1949 were accurate, a questionable assumption. Projecting from this assumption to the year 2000 is also therefore questionable. Where are the "missing 80 million"?  Not hiding in Xinjiang, that's for sure. Assimilated? If so, are they still Muslims?  Or were they not actually there to begin with?  It's all pure speculation.  In any case, citing the BBC as a "source" for the 100 million figure is unjustified since the BBC article does not explain (much less justify) where it got the number.--Mack2 10:59, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Sure there is. Just because you might distrust the Chinese government doesn't justify pulling a number out of the air with no documentation or justification. Also, lots of demographers inside and outside China have worked with their census and other population statistics (from censuses and surveys) during the last 20 years or so, and by and large these figures are highly trusted. Again I ask, where are they hiding 80 million uncounted Muslims?--Mack2 02:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POPULATION OF MUSLIMS (PART 2)

message: Somebody has repeatedty put up the data for KMT government back in 1938/1949, which that somebody said has recorded 40 million Muslims.
Now look at the historical circumstances perspective.
Back in 1938, China was in full fledge war with Japan, Manchuria has long been occupied, Beijing and Shanghai, along with much of Hebei has already fallen to the Japanese, Tibet was effectively under British control, the Northwestern provinces were either controlled by the communist or local warlords, the effective area under KMT control was only the South and the Southwest.
In 1949, the Chinese Civil War was at its closing stage. China had been in war for some years, KMT policy initiated hyperinflation, and the KMT governement was fast losing ground to the communist.
And that, were the years chosen for "FAIR" and "ACCURATE" census.
Well during the Communist reign there was bloody supression of numerous muslim uprisings in nanxian, lixan , hunan etc, etc. The government closed mosques, sent imams to jail, banned religious education etc, as was communist policy throughout the communist countries such as russia, vietnam, etc, etc.
If we are going to cite the current census - with no details of how it was peformed with no outside colaboration, etc, then it is entirely fair and accurate to put the 1948 census figures as well as the source from the china year book etc. Why should we reject these figures whilst putting in the communist figures, unless of course there is a hidden agenda to suppress the number of muslims in china on the wikipedia as well
::81.179.191.7 is full of bullshit, there is no hidden agenda to suppress the number of muslims in china on wikipedia.
Well, I guess you're right about those older censusses (probably not the correct plural) aren't completely trustworthy. But what about the most recent census? Are there any objective scientists who feel it's plausible / correct? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.117.51.236 (talk) 10:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population Census of KMT Government 

message: I don't understand why would anyone keep reverting the Demographic section back to the vandalized version done by various users (such as 81.154.252.34).  The BBC link the section referred to is now defunct, which means we can no longer check the facts, and the other references (pointing to the 200 and 100 million population) has no electronic links and are cited poorly.  Please do not removed references from the CIA World Factbook as well as the US Department of State's "International Religious Freedom Report".  Replacing official census with websites that has no scholarly value is considered un-encyclopedic and do not fit the standards of neutarlity.  For now, the demographic section will remain in the version with references support by The World Factbook.  Other references are welcome, but please do not remove official or recognized figures.--Balthazarduju 00:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Demographic Section

message: It is absurd to name Ahmad from Kwarzm as Chinese Muslim, for he was not Chinese.
After all, we do not name Matteo Ricci as Chinese Catholic.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.198.98.2 (talk • contribs) 13:36, 4 November 2006
:China incorparates many ethnic nationalities, includin uighur, tajak, etc, etc. This is because China grew to encorporate lands that where traditionally uighur, etc. Whereas i cannot for the life of me recall china ever incorporating Italy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.179.154.31 (talk • contribs) 02:04, 6 November 2006
:: Since there's no article on him, it's hard to say for certain, but if he was really 'from kwarzm' then he wouldn't be from China or any land 'incorporated' into China either. Minguo 16:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Famous Chines Muslim? 

message: anyone feeling me on this one? the template tags here are a little overboard in my opinion, the real long tag, islam all the world, kinda mess up the flow of the article, I'm gonna take it out. UyghurKid023
:Concur.. I had raised this issue in Template talk:Islam by country before with regards to some other articles. I suggested the creation of a horizontal template that could go to the bottom of the article. If someone has experience with codes, it shouldn't take more than 10 minutes. It is just that it is extraordinarily long :)) Baristarim 22:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually, thanks to , and  and its cousins, this was about a 30-second job. See . Comments? Should we replace the vertical navbar with the horizontal one? cab 09:52, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  template tags? 

message: Hi, I regret to inform you that there is absolutely no historical evidence that Sa`d ibn Abī Waqqās ever went to China, and there is no archaeological evidence of mosques in China before the Song Dynasty.  The story about the prophet's uncle going to China is a mere legend.  If anyone has evidence to support it, please present it.  Otherwise, let's not propagate legends as history, okay?  For your reference, see Lipman, Familiar Strangers, p. 25.  Also, the mosque in Canton has been dated by Dr. Kerr to 900 AD, see Broomhall, Islam in China, p. 110.  Oh, and by the way, just because one author claims that it is historical doesn't make it true.  Look up the author's sources and see if the author himself is not just propagating a myth.  I have read the BBC article, and I think whoever wrote it didn't do their homework.  It sounds neat, but is there any evidence?...I think not.  The myth itself says that Waqqas actually went to China in response to the emperor having a dream of the Prophet in 621.  Waqqas then took 30 copies of the Quran to China, the emperor edited them and propagated them throughout China before building a mosque.  What evidence is there of a seventh century mosque in China?  Do you think the emperor dreamed about the Prophet, sent to Arabia for him (before 1 AH), and edited the Quran?  Rockemet, Stanford (talk) 15:10, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: When did Islam first enter China?

message: Many muslim generals like Ma Zhanao, Ma Qianling, Ma Anliang, Dong Fuxiang and Ma Julung defected to the Qing dynasty and HELPED the qing general Zuo Zongtang crush muslim rebels. Zuo even removed the Han from outside of Hezhou and relocated them because the muslims there joined him and helped him exterminate the rebels.
Someone with an anti qing agenda is trying to white wash history and make it seem as though the "evil qing dynasty wanted to exterminate all muslims so it went on a random genocide".
wrong- authors like Jonathan Neaman Lipman make it clear in their works that the rebellion was not started due to some random hatred of muslims or divide and conquer tactics, but because of infighting between various Sufi sects, the Jahariyya and Khafiya, and the Gedimu.
Many muslims were loyal to Qing, and Generals like Dong Fuxiang Ma Anliang and Ma Fuxiang even assited the Qing dynasty again in the Dungan Revolt (1895) in killing muslim rebels.Дунгане (talk) 19:14, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stop Biasing with the qing dynasty history 

message: http://books.google.com/books?id=YJibpHfnw94C&pg=PA89&dq=Pusuman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rSmnUOuwEsK_0AGSroHIAQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Pusuman&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=DmgMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA13&dq=Pusuman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rSmnUOuwEsK_0AGSroHIAQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Pusuman&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=5UnjAAAAMAAJ&q=Pusuman&dq=Pusuman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rSmnUOuwEsK_0AGSroHIAQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAw
http://books.google.com/books?id=ynDgAAAAMAAJ&q=Pusuman&dq=Pusuman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rSmnUOuwEsK_0AGSroHIAQ&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBQ
http://books.google.com/books?id=hihtAAAAMAAJ&q=Pusuman&dq=Pusuman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rSmnUOuwEsK_0AGSroHIAQ&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBw
Guderyean (talk) 06:22, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pusuman muslims 

message: Savadove, Bill. Aug 17, 2005. “Faith Flourishes in an Arid Wasteland; Muslim Sect in Ningxia Accepts Beijing's Authority and Is Allowed to Build a Virtual Religious State."
http://www.scmp.com/article/512501/faith-flourishes-arid-wasteland
http://books.google.com/books?id=NrtIa77Sj2IC&pg=PT90&dq=Hui+religious+leader+Sufi+sect+virtual+religious+state++acknowledging&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wSv2U-3lD-zksAT-yIFA&ved=0CCYQ6wEwAA#v=onepage&q=Hui%20religious%20leader%20Sufi%20sect%20virtual%20religious%20state%20%20acknowledging&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=NrtIa77Sj2IC&pg=PT290&lpg=PT290&dq=faith+flourishes+arid+wasteland&source=bl&ots=LNaBwcUzn7&sig=Hr1vneQ7gzgaCL32TZFUzvOCYSk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LSv2U5rYLezLsQT6xILIAg&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=faith%20flourishes%20arid%20wasteland&f=false
http://thediplomat.com/2014/08/a-tale-of-two-chinese-muslim-minorities/
http://books.google.com/books?id=04dlwzB2SvcC&pg=PA159#v=onepage&q&f=false
Rajmaan (talk) 17:27, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Faith Flourishes in an Arid Wasteland; Muslim Sect in Ningxia Accepts Beijing's Authority and Is Allowed to Build a Virtual Religious State." 

message: Population numbers
http://www.pewforum.org/2011/01/27/future-of-the-global-muslim-population-regional-asia/#china
Family planning among Muslims in China. Many Muslims voluntarily limit themselves to one child.
http://ilookchina.net/2010/11/05/exemptions-in-chinas-one-child-policy/
Do not use this blog directly as a soure, but it contains references to reliable sources itself.
http://ningxiaunveiled.wordpress.com/family-planning/
Rajmaan (talk) 05:22, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population and Family planning 

message: Seems to duplicate Islam in China. Dougweller (talk) 16:28, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes It should be merged since there is no need of the extra article as China doesn't have such a great history of Muslims or Muslim ruling. Arka 92 10:12, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Merge: The part of both articles covering the post-1911 period look quite similar and they are in fact duplicate. --Cartakes (talk) 15:53, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

text: Yes This article should be merged into the main article about Islam in China. --Karlisr (talk) 07:27, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

text: Yes Makes little sense to have an entirely separate page for 100 years of history - especially when this article is so long already. Surely an extra few paragraphs wouldn't hurt? 2A02:C7D:5054:FE00:695A:310C:ACB7:B1D1 (talk) 00:40, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

text: Merge Per above. 45.116.232.44 (talk) 09:23, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

text: Oppose: after so much support over such a long time it seems churlish to object ... however ... it seems to me that a better target for this modern history article (last 100 years or so) would be History of Islam in China, specifically the section History of Islam in China#Republic of China which already has the Islam in China (1911–present) as a 'main'. Klbrain (talk) 21:15, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking again at this, more than a year later, it seems that a summary/main format seems to be working here. Perhaps best to leave well alone, on the grounds that if aint broke ... Klbrain (talk) 08:22, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge with [[Islam in China (1911–present)]] 

message: There are some problems about Ming dynasty Muslim claims and these need to be dealt with re NPOV, although I don't think that will stop all the vandalism. I've worked on Mu Ying (where I see vandalism from both sides):
Michael Dillon wrote "There is no suggestion in most western accounts of Mu Ying's career or the Chinese sources on which they draw that Mu Ying was anything other than a Han Chinese by origin, yet he has been included in the major series of studies of the lives of eminent Hui as a Muslim without any comment. The surname Mu is also common among Chinese Muslims and is probably derived from Muhammad, although it is normally written with a different Chinese character. The character used to write Mu Ying's surname is the one associated with washing the hair and which appears on signs in every mosque in China as the first character of muyu the ritual baths to be used before prayer." He concludes that "He was probably descended from an old Muslim family but there is no evidence that he was a practising Muslim."
Jonathan Neaman Lipman notes that Mu Ying is among a number of generals "unambiguously claimed as Muslim by Sino-Muslim scholars" mentioning specifically Bai Shouyi. He writes that "There is considerable doubt among non-Muslim scholars as to the “Muslim” identity of most of these generals, but Sino-Muslims assert their “Huiness” unequivocally. Tazaka, Chugoku ni okeru kaikyo, 861, for example, questions not only Chang Yuqun’s identification as a Huihui but that of many others as well. F. Mote, in Goodrich and Fang, Dictionary, 1079-8}, indicates that we have no evidence that Mu Ying was born a Muslim, and the story of his adoption and upbringing in Zhu Yuanzhang’s intimate circle certainly indicates that he was not raised as one."
These sources mention other generals.
Zheng He is one of those who were born into a Muslim family but seems to have abandoned his religion. Dougweller (talk) 10:20, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent blankings 

message: https://books.google.com/books?id=JopLAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://library.uoregon.edu/ec/e-asia/read/rab2.pdf
https://books.google.com/books?id=ObcNAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
Rajmaan (talk) 14:38, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  public domain pictures 

message: We are a group of undergraduate students who will be editing under the Relations with Non-Muslims for a class assignment. We would appreciate any insights or feedback from those who have been working hard on this article so that we can seamlessly add our work. Thank you!Jmowbray27 (talk) 19:24, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relations of Muslims with Non-Muslims in China 

message: We do not think this article is ready to move beyond the C class, as it covers many different topics that we were not looking at and think that overall it needs more work. 
Limitations of Article 
In editing a smaller portion of a larger article, we had several instances where our research was repeated in the article, so we had to pay attention to redundancy and take into account the reader of the entire article and not just a single section. 
We do not think our section would warrant it's own article as good scholarship is sparse and it works to have it included in this larger article. 
It's hard to find sources from multiple perspectives. This is very important in understanding how Chinese Muslims live their religion and reflecting factual statements about Islam in China.
We focused on current sources and did not use older good sources from the 1980s and 1970s as they would not reflect the current situation. 
Future Editing
We hope future editors of this article will take into account the broadness of the subject and the variety of lived experiences of Chinese Muslims. We used current and historical events to show the interactions of Muslims and Non-Muslims and as events happen, this article should reflect these events. Future editors should be diligent in using current sources in reflecting modern situations. 
Be precise explaining motives behind current events, especially acts of aggression that are sensationalized in the media. 
Jmowbray27 (talk) 21:18, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest you read the Migration to Xinjiang and Dzungar genocide articles and see what historians have to say about demographics in Xinjiang. News outlets like Al-Jazeera are only useful sources for current events- not as sources for commenting on historical matters. Journalists and guest writers for opinion pages are not qualified historians. Also check out the preceding section Islam_in_China#People.27s_Republic_of_China.Rajmaan (talk) 23:42, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  452 Final Reflections and Suggestions 

message: https://twitter.com/NaziaAngel1993/status/768782994920312832
http://twasul.info/513447/ 
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqZ3ahcWIAE0nUe.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqZ3a4BWYAAAKpC.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqZ3bl7WIAAFRXM.jpg
06:07, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Hajj Record

message: This section reads like a smear attack on Tibetans - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_China#Tibetan-Muslim_sectarian_violence
It needs to be rewritten. An excerpt from said section: Tibetans deliberately attack the Hui Muslims as a way to demonstrate anti-government sentiment and because they have a background of sectarian violence against each other 
Whereas the cited source says this: Most of the incidents involve the Hui, who ethnically are Han Chinese but practice Islam. China's 9.8 million Hui and 5.4 million Tibetans historically have lived in proximity, at various times fighting, competing or intermarrying and collaborating.https://web.archive.org/web/20100622013126/http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jun/23/world/fg-muslims23
The author dropped neutrality in favour of a deliberately provocative stance and this needs to be rectified and entire article rewritten.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.83.3.42 (talk) 18:45, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section "Tibetan-Muslim sectarian violence" needs rewriting 

message: "The Silk Road, which was a series of extensive inland trade routes that spread all over the Mediterranean to East Asia, was used since 1000 BC and continued to be used for millennia. During this large period of time, most of the traders were Muslim and moved towards the East." Reading this, to me it implied that most of the traders since 1000 BC that used the Silk Road were Muslim, which isn't true right? Also it says the Road continued to be used for a millennia, wouldn't this mean that it was only used from 1000 bc to 0 ad? Which isn't true? And Islam didn't exist for a while after? Idk if anyone could help me maybe I'm misunderstanding but this sentence just seems wrong in a lot of ways. TablemannDanny231 (talk) 15:38, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading Sentence 

message: There is interesting text reported by Donald Daniel Leslie
In the Tongdian (801 C.E.), based on the report of Du Huan, taken to Baghdad after 
the battle of Talas in 751, won by the Arabs, we read:30  
here is the link: http://ciw.anu.edu.au/sites/default/files/morrison59.pdf
the veil weared by Arab Women here are clearly reerencing Hijab or Burqa. and the mention of Every seventh day the king sits on high, and speaks to those below saying: “Those who  are  killed  by  the  enemy  will  be  reborn  in  Heaven  above;  those  who  slay  the  enemy will receive happiness", are clearly referencing caliph delivering Friday Sermon. i think it is worth to mention this in the history section. Ahendra (talk) 09:49, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interesting note from Du Huan 

message: Not sure what's the difference between the "Republic of China" and "People's Republic of China" with "Republic of China" and "People's Republic of China" BUT under the History section. Suggest to merge (and then trim for if any repetitive content).
Or alternatively, we can move the entire section of the "History" heading into the History of Islam in China page, since this page is just too big anyway. And since the History of Islam in China page still contains the old repetitive work that one editor did. Two birds with stone. Danial Bass (talk) 15:38, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggest to merge