Talk:Cheesesteak

message: I'm moving this here. It's been marked unreferenced since March 2008 but has been in the article, unreferenced, for far longer than that.
Dpbsmith (talk) 00:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh-heh, I've heard it's the "limestone" in the water. Ah, food mythology!--BillFlis (talk) 06:58, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Schuylkill water makes Amoroso rolls special?

message: Yeah, I know Philly Mag gets a fair amount of local attention from their awards, but is this really encyclopeadic? Surely there are other local press outlets doing similar "work". I personally don't pay much attention to them. Do they get coverage outside of their own magazine? - SummerPhD (talk) 15:56, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Without such a criterion, what do you do? Not mention any of them? Not even Pat's and Geno's? Dpbsmith (talk) 22:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Best of Philly winners

message: That are about essentially the same thing. Steak sandwich, Italian beef, French dip sandwich. BillyTFried (talk) 04:13, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The French dip is nothing like cheesesteak.  --Bobak (talk) 05:05, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

text: I agree with user "Bobak"; these are all distinct things when made properly. True, there are many places outside Philadelphia that claim to make "Philly cheesesteaks" that turn out to be closer to French dips, but that doesn't make them the same thing. The use of "Philly" strikes me as a false attempt to imply authenticity, sort of like the place I saw in Copenhagen that called itself "Manhattan Deep Pan Pizza House"! I also note that the article about "Italian beef" specifically identifies said sandwich with Chicago, which further suggests a difference. I think the current setup in which the links to other Wikipedia articles include the other sandwiches you've mentioned is a perfectly reasonable solution. 1995hoo (talk) 21:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

text: So copy them there, as the box above said you intended to do. 1995hoo (talk) 15:22, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article should be merged with the other articles 

message: This article has a lot of problems; I have corrected several of them but it is still of poor quality.
Here are some things I found wrong:
# WP:Not violations
## The list of award winning cheesesteak is a violation of WP:Not a directory.
## The instructions on how to cook a cheesesteak violated WP:Not an instruction manual ie a cookbook
# WP:OR
## The section on "imitation" cheesesteaks at Quiznos and Subway is pure WP:synthesis
## The commentary about why cheesesteaks not being authentic because only rolls from one bakery can be used is also unsupported opinion
:::No, it's not. It's well supported opinion, that was sourced until someone removed the source. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:37, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It is still an opinion, thus violates WP:NPOV guidelines.  Jeremy (blah blah...) 23:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Now that the "Best of Philly" list has been eliminated, I expect that the article will again experience rapid addition of personal favorites, and that some people who add them will feel justified in edit-warring with people who remove them, because there is no longer any objective criterion for inclusion or exclusion. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:32, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see WP:Not, specifically Wikipedia is not a directory, that is the only object criteria that should be used. Additionally this could be a copyright violation as it is the work of a magazine. Please remember, this is not an article about Philadelphia or restaurants in Philadelphia - it is a article about a sandwich. The whole thing needs a rewrite from the lead down. Read the lead and then the article, they are two different things. This should not be an article about Philly and its culture, it should be an article about a sandwich with origins in Philly akin to the cheeseburger article. --Jeremy (blah blah) 05:58, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: For the record, I've never been in Philadelphia and have no Philadelphia connections. I base all my editing actions in this article on what I read in good sources. Balance in the article is a legitimate matter of editorial judgment. But the idea that there should be no reference at all to Philadelphia culture and context in an article about Philadelphia cheesesteaks is extreme. The dish is as tied to the locale as any food can be. One might as well suggest that New Orleans is irrelevant to  the article on Oysters Rockefeller. Please see WP:IAR. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:51, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Isn't that complicated. "The sandwhich has grown in popularity yada yada yada and versions of it can now be found throughout the world/at chains/wherever".Cptnono (talk) 20:26, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I have already re-added the section I wrote up on their global availability that had previously been removed. BillyTFried (talk) 20:46, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Oh, I see. You removed all the names of the continents. That's fine I guess. BillyTFried (talk) 20:48, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The use of the company's menu's is also weird. It would be better to find reliable sources showing note worthiness for the trend in chains. Instead of using the menus, google news it and you will see tons of articles related to Doninos, McDonalds, Subway, Hardee's, and more. These news sources offer a better context and more informaiton to the reader. Please also take a look at Wikipedia:Citing sources and related pages for info on the use, format (no space in between ref tags), and principles of citing sources.Cptnono (talk) 21:05, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Follow-up: This aticle needs clean-up. Information is getting stuffed in with disregard to layout and guidelines to the point that it is a mess. The sandwhich description can be easily fixed by making it easier on the reader. There are two pretty decent sources that can be used to get it going: http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20090710/LIFE/907100334  http://www.phillymag.com/articles/the_cheesesteak_cometh/page1 These will take care of all of the citation needed flags and give the reader some understanding as to what the sandwhich is.Cptnono (talk) 21:37, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here is another one. This is from the Food in Philly catagory listed at the bottom of the page. Try doing some poking around and you will find much better sources than expected: Brookes, Karin; John Gattuso, Lou Harry, Edward Jardim, Donald Kraybill, Susan Lewis, Dave Nelson and Carol Turkington (2005). Zoë Ross. ed. Insight Guides: Philadelphia and Surroundings (Second Edition (Updated) ed.). APA Publications. . Cptnono (talk) 23:01, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article issues 

message: Several different facts in the article were referenced to a single source, so a named "ref" tag was used, and the reference itself given only in the first of them. The remaining "ref" tag no longer referred to anything, so the fact it supported as removed as "unreferenced."
This is the third or fourth example I've run into in which editor A removed a valid reference, usually through carelessness or clumsiness, and then editor B removeds the fact as unreferenced. I'm not quite sure what to do about it, but it's pretty frustrating.
Quite a few sources say that the rolls used in Philadelphia are important. This is suggested by the fact that some restaurants outside Philadelphia go to the effort of having Philadelphia-baked rolls shipped to them. That's verifiable, too, but I don't have the time to track it down now. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:32, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It is neither clumsy or careless - the source was not reliable. That is just as bad as being unreferenced. I know exactly what I was doing when I removed them.--Jeremy (blah blah) 23:49, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: But it WAS referenced... originally

message: The images need some work. I do not know how to fit the ones in right now since they are too big for the text (my opinion not manual of style). The "how to order" sign is OK. It was under locations (which describes the "war" and is also a sign seen in other locations throughout the county. If it compliments the text it should be in. The images used could also be better. I will check to see if there is a commons page so that we can find some higher quality ones.Cptnono (talk) 23:39, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Follow-up: For the sake of improving the prject, please add images to [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Cheesesteaks[ before deleting so they are easily accesible to editor's in the future.Cptnono (talk) 23:41, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: Anyone else think that there should be a section on how to order a steak in Philly? From personal experience, if you go up to the front of the line at Pat's or Gino's and if you don't know what you want, you get sent back to the end of said line. A simple section of the basics (wiz wit, wiz witout) would be cool, especially for the Philly locals that are tired of tourists taking 3 minutes to order a simple wiz wit, ya know?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.230.252.155 (talk) 05:47, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: probably not.  The specific procedure for ordering a specific cheesesteak at a specific restaurant likely falls outside of the realm of what Wikipedia is designed for.  See WP:NOT.  Even though Gino's and Pat's are the most famous cheesesteak places, the quirks of each restaurant doesn't really belong in a general article on cheesesteaks.  --Jayron32 05:57, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm from Philadelphia, lived here my whole life, and I'd go with not mentioning it. Philly locals don't order like that, and I hate the image the tourism market paints of the whole thing.--SexyKick 19:21, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  ref from the Inquirer for interest. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 04:29, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: How to order a cheesesteak

message: (This discussion [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SummerPhD&oldid=424972887 began at my talk page. As the discussion was solely about the article contents, I'm moving it here.)
 
Dear SummerPhd: The edits to the above page were made for the reasons given: the Olivieris did not invent the cheese steak, no matter popular attribution: the history directly above their mention establishes the sandwich existed at the end of the 19th century.  They popularized it.
The edit attributing the popularity of Cheeze Whiz to Pat's introduction is not unsourced or unsupported.  It simply condenses what is established elsewhere in the article.  You want to trim that down to merely re-state that Pat introduced it and no more, be my guest.
The "Variations" subhead is a flytrap for all manner of variation.  I had cheese steaks yesterday and today from two different places.  You want me to list them, too?  A cheese steak is a cheese steak: steak, cheese, onions, peppers and mushooms if you please.  Going beyond that is not encyclopedic, it's fanpage stuff. Yours. Wikiuser100 (talk) 04:06, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edit summaries do not summarize your edits. They should. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:21, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Point made. I'll endeavor to do better. Yours. Wikiuser100 (talk) 04:24, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, the history directly above says "The cheesesteak was developed in the early 20th century" and the sources say the Oliveris are "credited with inventing" the cheesesteak. I've made this correction again. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:28, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

text: As I find no source elsewhere in the article claiming Pat's introduced Whiz, I've added a  tag for the moment. I've returned a reduced version of the varieties section, keeping only brief descriptions of the very common chicken cheesesteaks and pizza steaks, as sourced. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:41, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

text: The addition of cheese in general and Whiz in particular has a bit of unsourced competing claims in Pat's_King_of_Steaks. Pending a source, I've removed it from this article. Further discussion re edits will go to the article talk page. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:49, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

text: Thirty to forty years (unsourced) before 1930 is no longer the "early 20th century" cited. 1930, as sourced, is. I'm moving this to the article talk page. Please respond there. - SummerPhD (talk) 05:07, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine, move it.  I'm done with it.  "1930, as sourced, is".  Is what?  Transparently in error. Wikiuser100 (talk) 05:24, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: 1930, as sourced, is in the "early 20th century" (also cited). Your various claims, including the factually incorrect claims about what the article says ("Pat's introduction (of Whiz)... is established elsewhere in the article" and "the history directly above their mention establishes the sandwich existed at the end of the 19th century") are unsourced. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 05:30, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Pat's did introduce whiz though...and I wouldn't even call it popular, as Pat's is just about the only cheesesteak place where whiz is the default cheese, instead of white american. Most places don't even offer whiz as a choice, just American, Provolone, and Mozzerella. You can find swiss cheese about as often as whiz. Whiz is what we use to make fun of foolish tourists.--SexyKick 09:30, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact, at some point I'll have to take a better picture of a regular/normal cheese steak.--SexyKick 09:40, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: We have used some decent sources and have tons to pick from. I get that there is some dispute but am shocked that it is a big deal. "Source A says x. Source b says z". Fixed.Cptnono (talk) 09:58, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

text: Who introduced what and what is common are all moot points without reliable sources. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:36, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: And which source says whiz is common? I've started to ask most vendors in the street (center city Philadelphia) if they have whiz, and they don't.--SexyKick 13:26, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: While your study of Center City street vendors may someday be published as a resource on Center City street vendors, there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy. (Get it? Low brow food + high brow lit = humor. Har.) Anyway, the sources that were there covered the subject. Unfortunately, the tendency of newspapers to either kill off old web content or bury it behind a paywall have made those sources hard to get to. (Your local library can rustle them up, of course.) So, I added another source. Seems the Inquy looked into your vexation recently and placed whiz as the third most popular cheese (though a runaway favorite at some venues). In my search, I also found a number of reviews of shops outside of Philly trying to produce a Philly-style vibe (shipping in Tastykakes and such), with reviewers either pointing to the use of whiz as a sign of "authentic" or grousing about someone trying to "pass off" other cheeses in its place. Maybe it's offered mostly at spots with a decent tourist population. This would explain the food carts not bothering with the stuff. Further, food carts often don't have fries. Cheese fries with whiz seems common. If I ran a high-volume, cheesesteak heavy fast food joint, I would stop just short of encouraging whiz, as it stores well (in cans) and is easy to add after cooking (no mess on the grill, no need to cook to order). - SummerPhD (talk) 16:22, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: A handful of the out of the area reviews claiming whiz is obligatory: , , , , , . Actually, the last one has the guys saying whiz is for tourists, but the seem to sell a good bit of it. Frankly, I hate the stuff. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:31, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It is relieving to see articles that mention those things. The sourced poll article even mentions Larry's, my personal favorite, though it's actually on 54th street (54th and City Line Ave, which 54th turns into "Old Lancaster Ave" once you pass City Line Ave, the real Lancaster Ave does not have a Larry's on it at all).--SexyKick 21:32, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cheese steak page edits 

message: This article doesn't flow properly. The most glaring example is the sudden insert of "Pat's and Geno's Steaks have a highly publicized rivalry. They are located across the street from each other on 9th Street and Passyunk Avenue in South Philadelphia." Geno's hasn't even been mentioned yet so the reader would be saying "Who is Geno?!" Just because it may be a fact, doesn't mean it belongs in an article and it DEFINITELY doesn't mean it can just be inserted anywhere. Articles should flow in an orderly fashion, not jump around with trivial facts inserted here and there. Trivial information doesn't always belong in an encyclopedia either. For these reasons, I am removing the sentence. Feel free to write a section on variations of the sandwiches and competition between restaurants. That would be better suited. MagnoliaSouth (talk) 18:44, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: With the random sentence removed the first mention of Geno's is even more jarring. Geno's probably should be mentioned here, especially considering its location and rivalry with Pat's - even if it's just touristy legend. I suggest someone familiar with the situation, preferably a Philly native, make mention of Geno's somewhere in the article, and put the rivalry/fame/tourist attraction thing in perspective.--ChasFink (talk) 18:55, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, per WP:ASTONISH.  I can work on this clarification over the next few days (also, though IMO where you're from shouldn't matter, my family is from Kensington).  But keep in mind, this is an article on the cheesesteak, not on the establishments or their rivalry.  The articles on the establishments, Geno's Steaks  and Pat's King of Steaks, are a more appropriate venue for expanding this topic.  I'm planning on writing a few sentences, tops. I, JethroBT drop me a line 19:09, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Badly written in some spots. 

message: Are cheese steaks copywrited?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.111.145.151 (talk) 22:25, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Copyright generally applies to literary and artistic material. For example, you cannot record a song someone else owns the copyright to without paying them royalties. The same would apply to copying movies, publishing books, reprinting photographs, etc. There is nothing to copyright about grilling chopped meat with some cheese and serving it on a roll. Various shops have likely trademarked their names, but that's a different issue. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:31, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copywrite 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This article states: "Slices of cheese are then placed over the meat..." Obviously if cheese wiz is being used, there'll be no cheese slices involved, so should just read "Cheese is placed over the meat..."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.158.48.160 (talk) 13:49, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: slices?

message: We have, IMO, two problems here: the image and sources. First up, the image.
After a recent flip-flop, we've had three images essentially proposed here:
"Pat's", "Foil", and "California"
From a while back, we also have: 
"#1", "#2", and "#3"
Without digging, IIRC, "Pat's" was here for quite some time. The last time this was actually discussed was 9 years ago, so we're probably due.
I start with the assumption that street cheesesteaks in Philly are cannon. Yes, you can get a "Genuine Famous Original Philadelphia Cheese Steak" in Boise, Cherry Hill or from Wendy's or Subway, but each is an interpretation of the Philadelphia commodity.
IMO, #1, #2 and #3 are all fairly terrible. They are reasonably authentic, but aren't great photos and generally don't show much of what a cheesesteak is.
Foil is a good photo and has no promotional aspects to it. However, I have no idea what that cheese is. Further, as a general rule, I've found the cheese (with the possible exception of Whiz) is usually placed on top of the cooking beef, the roll is added and the whole thing flipped. This generally leaves the cheese under the meat.
California is odd in a lot of ways. The photo I've labelled "Califor.nia" is also odd. I don't know when it showed up in the article and can't be bothered to look. I'm not sure what that roll is, the meat seems rather chunky and I don't know that I've ever encountered one of those baskets outside of a suburban hoagie shop. Outside of a basic plate at the Melrose, every cheesesteak I've had in the city has been on paper, foil or both. Hots and/or sweets are fairly common additions, but probably not on the majority sold.
Pat's certainly loses points in my book for being on the branded paper. Occasionally we get edits here inspired by partisan nonsense, but what can you do? I'm sure someone will say Whiz isn't "traditional" or whatever, and it certainly isn't available everywhere. All of that said, it is a canonical cheesesteak (to the extent that there is such a thing) and it's a good photo.
If anyone has a photo that they feel is better than any of these, feel free to add to the discussion. (A better photo, IMO, would omit the brand name and have American or Provolone. Or Dukakis holding one with Swiss in a tank, of course.)
Thoughts? - SummerPhDv2.0 20:06, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, in over a month, no one cared enough to comment, but someone went ahead and made a change that matched my opinion. I hereby declare myself a majority of one and approve the change until a better photo (or more discussion) comes along. - SummerPhDv2.0 00:47, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: How about "this?" Standard insulation foil which the high quality cheesesteak places use, Amoroso roll, only the standard base toppings/nothing extra, sourced from the second oldest cheesesteak joint in Philadelphia, likely American cheese.--SexyKick 02:25, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I have nominated it for deletion, as it is the work of a Philadelphia Inquirer photographer and they do not appear to have given us permission to use it. Marcus Markup (talk) 20:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Issues #1: image