Talk:History of intersex surgery

message: If you have a question about the contents, please have the courtesy to ask here. I assure you I am not exaggerating the cultural context of the 70s. alteripse 01:59, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It's pretty obvious that this article contains mountains of opinion stated without regard NPOV policies.  My edits were fairly minimal.   Which ones did you find objectionable? DanP 01:45, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: Thanks for agreeing with me that unsubstantiated claims of pov are inappropriate. I am fixing the punctuation problem so I can read what I wrote last week. Brief answers: 
**expected academic and cultural champions a very common type of academic career building in us in 80s and 90s was exploring pov of anyone perceived as an oppressed, victimized or socially marginalized group. This can be seen by perusing publication lists of academic books from the period, contents of academic journals, programs of meetings in the humanities (such as the MLA). If you want a reference that describes this general trend and fashion, see Jonathan Culler's Literary Theory: A Very Short Introduction (Oxford 1997) for a very lucid chapter on the Theory approach to gender and identity group politics, the tension between academic pov and political advocacy, and the social responses the movement elicited. Probably one of the first academics to get publicly involved as an advocate was Anne Fausto-Sterling, but she was followed by others. The sentence above perfectly describes their approaches and the consequences. Anyone attempting to pose an issue in this frame could expect support from many academics regardless of details or accuracy of claims and especially regardless of the knowledge of the academics (the prime example of the latter claim of course was the Sokal affair). 
**What individual or group : ISNA is a good example but there were others, such as a group that called itself "hermaphrodites with attitude". Interestingly isna has removed much of the more outrageously false accusations from their web page and now seem quite sensitive to the accuracy of the claims of their critics. This was not always the case, as will be remembered by those familiar with their website since the late 90s. 
**constructed a culture: a culture is a body of shared attitudes, stories and views with shared interpretations and meaning. Again, the phenomenon is well-described in Culler's book. You will find little or no evidence to support the existence of the culture of which isna is an example (it might be called victims of medical treatment of intersex) prior to the mid-90s. alteripse 21:17, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Perhaps we can craft a phrase that encompasses two POV: "Critics argue that patient advocacy groups cynically constructed a culture of victimhood to woo favor from the usual academic and cultural champions, while the patient advocates argue that they simply connected patients and gave them a voice to raise consciousness of the impact of such procedures; regardless, the ensuing mass media coverage of these groups' views had great impact." Cleduc 03:09, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: npov

message: *The following sentence has a POV issue: "The politically proven tactic of constructing a culture of victimhood brought them the expected academic and cultural champions," -- expected by whom?  What individual or group espoused this "tactic" and "constructed" a culture? Cleduc 04:49, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for agreeing with me that unsubstantiated claims of pov are inappropriate. I am fixing the punctuation problem so I can read what I wrote last week. Brief answers: 
**expected academic and cultural champions a very common type of academic career building in us in 80s and 90s was exploring pov of anyone perceived as an oppressed, victimized or socially marginalized group. This can be seen by perusing publication lists of academic books from the period, contents of academic journals, programs of meetings in the humanities (such as the MLA). If you want a reference that describes this general trend and fashion, see Jonathan Culler's Literary Theory: A Very Short Introduction (Oxford 1997) for a very lucid chapter on the Theory approach to gender and identity group politics, the tension between academic pov and political advocacy, and the social responses the movement elicited. Probably one of the first academics to get publicly involved as an advocate was Anne Fausto-Sterling, but she was followed by others. The sentence above perfectly describes their approaches and the consequences. Anyone attempting to pose an issue in this frame could expect support from many academics regardless of details or accuracy of claims and especially regardless of the knowledge of the academics (the prime example of the latter claim of course was the Sokal affair). 
**What individual or group : ISNA is a good example but there were others, such as a group that called itself "hermaphrodites with attitude". Interestingly isna has removed much of the more outrageously false accusations from their web page and now seem quite sensitive to the accuracy of the claims of their critics. This was not always the case, as will be remembered by those familiar with their website since the late 90s. 
**constructed a culture: a culture is a body of shared attitudes, stories and views with shared interpretations and meaning. Again, the phenomenon is well-described in Culler's book. You will find little or no evidence to support the existence of the culture of which isna is an example (it might be called victims of medical treatment of intersex) prior to the mid-90s. alteripse 21:17, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Perhaps we can craft a phrase that encompasses two POV: "Critics argue that patient advocacy groups cynically constructed a culture of victimhood to woo favor from the usual academic and cultural champions, while the patient advocates argue that they simply connected patients and gave them a voice to raise consciousness of the impact of such procedures; regardless, the ensuing mass media coverage of these groups' views had great impact." Cleduc 03:09, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Constructing a culture of victimhood

message: There's a disambig link to sex reassignment on this page. I read the (first) sentence in which it was contained and could not comfortably deduce from the text the appropriate ambig link. Please help. Thanks! ZueJay (talk) 06:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So all you have to do is click on this and fill it in with some biographical material: Mark M. Ravitch, but I would recommend linking to him from pediatric surgery, rather than this topic, since this isn't what his reputation is based on. alteripse 19:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambig link

message: I support Ttintagel's recent edits to this article.  Where words are replaced they are much more appropriate.
I have raised issues with some of these (removed) statements before:
: The politically proven tactic of constructing a culture of victimhood brought them the expected academic and cultural champions, and their message was sensationalized and amplified in the public media.
and
: Preposterous exaggerations, occasional lapses of fact, and uncharitable imputations of bizarre motives to the surgeons who had provided their care tempted many physicians to dismiss their critics as an unreasonable and unrepresentative minority.
are both highly inflammatory statements.  There are many (many) references provided for this article, but the article is not encyclopedic in that it does not attribute the positions stated to the sources, or cite examples: instead it states that these things are authoritatively true.  The article, as it stands, is not easily verifiable; the reader would have to consume the entire bibliography to figure out what reliable source (if any) holds which positions.
Furthermore, the article has style issues.  There are several instances of non-encyclopedic tone, such as statements phrased as questions.
Finally, the references section is far, far too long: 1/3 of the article text (as already noted with ).  The lengthy explanations provided there need to be incorporated into the article (if appropriate) or removed.  
I look forward to working with all editors to improve this article.  Cleduc 06:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wrote this and included the references at a time when few wp articles were well referenced, just because there was so much unreliable and unreferenced nonsense about this topic in some of the other articles. Please do not delete any of the references as they have been carefully chosen to support the info in the article. Some of what you ask for addtional references for (the quoted sentences above) can be referenced right from wikipedia discussions and much popular literature and websites. If you want to be helpful and learn something, why dont you look for some references to support what is there and seems to not agree with popular conceptions of this topic? I have only limited access for the next couple of weeks and no access to sources but would be happy to supply support for anything you doubt in about 2 weeks. alteripse at  keyboard with no brackets or tildes.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alteripse (talk • contribs) 15:26, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've made some changes, most notably a new lede that is not self-referential.  I've also recast several questions as statements, and shortened some section titles.  I've tagged a quote that presumes to read surgeons' minds (or to speak for them like the Lorax, heh).  Finally, I've started incorporating the references into the text.  That's going to take some time.  So far, I've finished one of them.Cleduc 04:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Got a few more done, among them the dread Lorax.  Wow, this is gonna take a while. Good references to work with, though. Cleduc 05:22, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits - POV, unencyclopedic style, references 

message: There should be a citation for the statement listing the most important findings of the studies discussed in the Outcomes and statistics section ("Perhaps the most striking findings from these reports are..."). It is important to know who made these conclusions (was it the study authors?) and also know who thinks that such conclusions are most important. BTW I am not trying to raise any neutrality issues here, just trying to improve article quality. Tomyhoi (talk) 16:12, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outcomes and statistics citations 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified