Talk:HMS Java (1811)

message: The wheel on USS Constitution is NOT that taken from Java.  It was replaced during a refit.  My source for this is from researchers at Naval Historical Command Detachment, Boston and the USS Constitution Museum.  The fact emerged explicitly in the script of a video tour I shot on board within the past week. Should I just remove this from the article, as the assertion is here uncited?  DulcetTone (talk) 18:25, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Careful there, I am responsible for most of the content in there and I assure you that I didn't go around making things up.  Someone is saying that in a history book somewhere or it wouldn't be there.  It is possible that the book was wrong (it happens) or that the final wheel was fitted later and that a jury rig was used with Java's wheel.  I don't have access to better information and it would seem that you do.  Be careful that you don't cross the line into OR, I started reading Congressional discussions about the War of 1812 and found a lot of interesting conclusions that I can't use here because of that.  Make sure you are using secondary sourcing for this.  It is ok if you write a book and use that book to be a source though. Tirronan (talk) 18:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The Java's wheel is documented to have been removed and used for some time as the wheel on the Constitution, it may have been replaced later but if you want to say that it has been subsequently replaced, then you should have a reference for that. Dabbler (talk) 21:50, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

text: re: "in a history book somewhere" ... perhaps the people who restore the ship read this in the companion volume "Another History Book Somewhere Else"?  :)  I will see what documentation informs their understanding.  Luckily, I am relieved to see that the line stating the wheel was removed occurs at a place where I could easily edit it out! (phew)  If you would like to see my first (of four) videos, check   DulcetTone (talk) 23:14, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither of the two sources I have direct to hand refer to taking of the Java's wheel though both refer to her Wheel being shot away and tackles set up to steer below.  Just leave it out unless we find something directing to it.  Then again it won't be the 1st myth to make it to a history book nor unfortunately the last.  Tirronan (talk) 05:53, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: interesting that it had a eye witness or purported to be anyway.  DulcetTone, you need to explain a bit here. Tirronan (talk) 16:48, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

text: My position is that it is understood by all that the Java's wheel was aboard Constitution for some time, but that the US Navy, as informed by the people entrusted to train the crew of USS Constitution in how to explain the ship's history to the public believes strongly enough that it was replaced at some point during an intervening restoration, possibly one after the 150+ year old source you cite which may not therefore be called into question in any way, that the assertion that the present wheel is no longer that taken from Java would make it into a US Navy-commissioned 3 minute video that highlights the Constitution's steering arrangements.  I am inquiring as to what sources underlie the script I shot, and will read your source's background.  We'll see what is what, or at least see it a little better.  edit:  I read your source and enjoy the anecdote.  It may be gussied up in the telling, but the US Navy's telling seems to agree with it.  It is merely a matter of WHEN the US Navy feels it was replaced, and what is the basis of their present understanding.  I will say that the Captain's cabin on Constitution still sports a mirror taken from Guerriere.  DulcetTone (talk) 16:08, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no issue with the fact that Java's wheel was used for a time and most likely replaced at some later date, all that I am asking is that we get something in print as to when this occurred if we include the factoid.  Lord knows that it was reputed to look like hell so it's replacement was probably mandated pretty quickly, that is one beloved ship!Tirronan (talk) 21:12, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

text: Are we then agreed that the Java's wheel was then used for a time at least? Tirronan (talk) 16:54, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

text: I believe all accounts agree on Java's being used for (at a minimum) the remainder of the Constitution's cruise which featured her victory over Java.  I have now heard from the Naval History Command, and the evidence could not be more overwhelming that the Java's wheel is long gone.  Working primarily from a paper put together by Tyrone G. Martin (former commander of the Constitution in the 1970s, and in many ways her biographer), the history of the ship's wheel's maintenance is this:  1804 - Constitution completed with single wheel, inferred by her quarter bill listing that 2 sailors should man it. Feb, 1809 - Constitution now probably has a double wheel, as her quarter bill now says 4 sailors should man it.  Dec 29, 1812 - double wheel destroyed in action with Java.  Dec 30, 1812 - Java's wheel installed in place of missing double wheel.  Sep 1813 - Java's wheel replaced, presumably, by one that was delivered to Constitution, sourced in Amos Binney's records, 4th auditor's report.  May 4 1839 - new wheel fitted, as noted in ship's log.  During the 1927-1931 restoration, a wheel manufactured by the Hyde Windlass Company of Bath, ME was installed.  The present wheel was manufactured in the 1980s -- a difference in supposed age from 1812 or so that would have to fall into the realm of the plainly apparent.  I would think that the article as now recorded should be softened at the very least.  My own video (probably to be published before end of February) can serve as a publication to cite if the published works of Tyrone Martin and others do not extend to this level of detail. DulcetTone (talk) 19:34, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have modified the article to reflect the discussion above. It would be nice if DulcetTone could provide the full reference for the wheel's replacement from the paper cited above. Dabbler (talk) 00:50, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Wheel

message: The "Pallas class" link in the info box (class and type) refers to the wrong wiki page, about the British Pallas-class_frigate, whereas it should be the French Pallas-class_frigate_(1808). I would have edited the box myself, but I don't know the template used in the box, so I'd probably mess up. Could someone else please make the correction?--Giant'sConscience (talk) 00:40, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong link Class and type in info box