Talk:Boers/Archive 2

message: As an estimate (or an accurate figure knowing Ron7, lol) what percentage of the Boer population can speak a language other than Afrikaans?
82.12.236.241 20:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not a forum, please see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. Furthermore, there is no longer exist such a thing as a "boer population". The term Boer has different meanings in different historical contexts. Please limit comments to details of the article. --Deon Steyn 07:28, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language? 

message: Can we not place an infobox for them, Ron7's obtained population information (1 million roughly), they have their own customs, their own language, and are to all intents and purposes as much a people as the Afrikaners. 
They have had a period of history in which they were independent, I think all of this warrants an info box. 
82.13.45.78 11:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They were for a short period a distinct political – and to some extent genetic – grouping, but even then did not have a distinct language. Furthermore, this page describes the various uses of the term "Boer" as it does not represent one unique people, because it varies with historic context. --Deon Steyn 07:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Your statements contradict themselves Ron7, you refer to "Eastern Border Afrikaans" as a dialect. Even today there are many dialects of Afrikaans, they aren't separate languages (nor do they denote a separate ethnic group/peoples/nation). This "group" does not exist, please cite a reliable source that states otherwise. You are compressing several ambiguous terms ("boer", "afrikaner") and several hundred years of history into a few easy terms and this is not correct. It would be akin to speaking of the "yankee nation" you might want to call yourself a yankee, but a nation that does not make! --Deon Steyn 06:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Once again, please see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, also Wikipedia:Assume good faith. Please sign (by logging in) and indent your comments. --Deon Steyn 07:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indeed 

message: The following line has been removed. 
  The Boer Nation (Boerevolk) of Southern Africa were a White indigenous nation in Africa [1] [2] [3] [4]   
While I did not write this line I do however concur that they are in fact an indigenous nation. I happened to post four sources which note this fact. The reason I did this was because someone once erroneously put the word " not" before the word "indigenous" which prompted me to demonstrated this fact with references. While I also did not write "which were internationally recognized as a nation in its own right for approximately two centuries." but also concur that the Boer people have indeed been recognized for about this length of time. The references I posted where specifically aimed at showing the indigenous or homegrown nature of the Boers & not for the line stating their international recognition as a nation for two centuries. Therefore the removal of the entire paragraph is unwarranted. Now: only one link (the fourth) was to a commercial game lodge while the first two were from authors who wrote about the subject in books & the third source demonstrates that a number of Bantus viewed the Boers as a tribe in the past.   
 Ron7 04:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As for the paragraph. None of the sources support the statement that the Boers are an "indigenous nation". Yes, the one – very sloppy and un-academic – source just mentions that some (?) African tribes think of them as another tribe, but this isn't what the wiki article statement claimed either. --Deon Steyn 06:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concerning the references which note the indigenous or homegrown nature of the Boers. 

message: The following line is a violation of the NPOV rule. 
  A small minority of Afrikaners have tried to build a new identity based on the past traditions and cultures and again adopted names such as "Boervolk" (or "Boerevolk").   
Furthermore it is a complete contradiction to assert that the Boers "have tried to build a new identity based on the past" since if they were indeed doing that then it would not be a new identity! It would simply be a reassertion of their historic designation. Furthermore the Boer portion of the Afrikaners (which is an artificial political label which lumped a wide variety of Afrikaans speakers into one loose camp) have only ever been a minority within the Afrikaner designation as they have always been numerically smaller than the Cape based Afrikaners. The so called Afrikaners who you accuse of "trying to build a new identity" are simply reclaiming their heritage (which they never renounced) & the right to call themselves by their original name before the Cape based Afrikaners came & subjugated them after the devastation of the Anglo-Boer War when many Boers were too poor & politically weak to prevent themselves from becoming dominated[1] by the ascending Afrikaners. The Boers never went away as a people although their culture was changed somewhat due the urbanization of many but they have retained most of their traditions & their dialect. 
Note. 
1.  < The “Boer worker" was the focus of the culture-brokers’ attentions in the next decade as the urban labour market became an arena in which Afrikaner intellectuals sought to capture the cultural allegiance of the urbanising Afrikaans-speaker. >  
From: The Construction of Eugène Marais as an Afrikaner Hero. Sandra Swart. Journal of Southern African Studies. 30.4, Dec 2004. 
I would remind you you to refrain from posting a point of view which is not even substantiated by the observable facts. 
 Ron7 (talk) 17:20, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV Violation. 

message: I am new to Wikipedia.  I was just wondering, would'nt it be better to put the Boer page under the Afrikaner page with a heading "Boere"?  Almost all Afrikaners know what the word Boer mean, but the minority still uses it as a description of themselves.  Most Afrikaans speaking whites, whether from the Cape Colony right up to the Limpopo river would call themselves Afrikaners.
--Etherealscourge (talk) 13:01, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Afrikaner Page 

message: There was very little difference between the pages Boer and Boere-Afrikaner.  There may be nuances of interpretation between the two labels, but certainly nothing in the two articles seemed to justify having separate pages.  I have copied most of the content from Boere-Afrikaner into this page in preparation for a merge. Zaian (talk) 20:51, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge from [[Boere-Afrikaner]] 

message: The picture to the right of the page, has a caption that reads Llama assualt unit, then claims the boer war was in South America. My attempts to remove the picture have all been undone by wikipedias editors.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.198.28.14 (talk) 15:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Llama Assualt Unit 

message: The section mentions the Boers' fight against the British annexes, but some of the wording may be made more clear and also if we're going to include their fighting off the British then why don't we also include their fighting of the native people? Invmog (talk) 20:13, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concerning the Section on Nationalism 

message: Why in the world - in an article about Boers which also explains their history - is there absolutely no mention (so far as I can tell) of the Battle of Blood River? Many Boers still celebrate Day of the Vow (or Day of the Covenant - Dingane's Day) - my family among them. Invmog (talk) 20:17, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concerning the Section on The Great Trek 

message: It would be nice to have another photo that gives a more balanced portrayal, rather than being purely militant in nature.--Lionelbrits (talk) 20:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks to whoever added Sarel Cilliers. (I'm related to him.) Invmog (talk) 03:24, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo 

message: When the Boers lost wars against Britishers, they were transported to various POW (Prisoners of war) camps. A group of Boers was exiled to British India and they were kept at Abbottabad(Now in Pakistan). The buildings where Pakistan Military Academy is situated these days were initially constructed as a POW camp for Afrikaner Boers. One can still find Old barracks besides PMA where these captives were kept. Boers were good farmers since centuries so they started farming around the area of Kakul for their livelihood. A good number of fertile farms around the Academy were developed by Boers during those days. They were very friendly people and retained good relations with natives of the town. Boer women used to make handicrafts which were sold in the local markets.
By Syed Saqib Hussain  —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:Contributions/
10:25, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that does sound like it merits inclusion in the article - do you have any sources for us to cite? — Gk sa (talk) 18:38, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boers in British India 

message: I cannot for the life of me understand why any space should be given in the Wikipedia towards a very minute minority movement propagating the absurd idea that there are Afrikaners as well as Boers. Some members of my own family in the distant past were Capetonians, other were from the Free State. My father's uncle was shot by an English firing squad during the Boer War at Graaff-Reinet for being a Cape Rebel Boer. Others members of the family stayed in the Western Cape at Villiersdorp, still others had migrated northwards just after the Great Trek. Afrikaners are Boers and Boers are Afrikaners. It's as simple as that. Just look at our surnames comprising the core of the Afrikaner/Boer population to realize that we are one and the same. -- -- Guest  9 September 2009
:Ek stem saam met U, maar ek hoe meer van twee artikels hê omdat dit praat van twee verskillende tye van ons geskiedenis. Maar Boere is Afrikaners en Afrikaners is Boere, selfs as ons nie meer almal boer op 'n plaas nie. Invmog (talk) 03:30, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Translation of the above comment follows, this Wiki is English.
 I agree with you, however I would prefer to have two articles, because it refers to two different periods in history. 
 But Boers are Afrikaners and Afrikaners are Boers, even though we don't farm (verb) on a farm (noun) any more. 
 Invmog (talk) 03:30, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

text: translated by --86.5.226.63 (talk) 22:15, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

text: I'm a part of the diaspora living in the United Kingdom, so don't know much about my cultural history, unfortunately, compared to others back home. But I know enough to have an opinion, and I still talk to people back home very often and keep up with the news over the Internet where I can. I disagree that the two are one in the same completely. My family identify themselves as Boers, a sort of subgroup of Afrikaner. Half of my family still farm back home, but even those that live in the cities add the prefix "Boer" when they refer to their own ethnic group. This issue is evolving, since the two names are heavily intertwined and a lot of people probably feel that the two have merged completely. (edit) I see that this topic was very thoroughly discussed below under a different title. I didn't notice, because of the seperate title. Well, you can take this as proof that there is still consensus of some sort of the existence of us. --86.5.226.63 (talk) 22:15, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yes, Wolfie! 

message: In Swedish words : Bo and Bor means: to live, to inhabit .
I think the word boer originated from some of Netherlands dialects and could be ethymologically connected to those Swedish words. Originally Frisia spoke on the language, related to Anlo-Saxon
and Low Saxon. After Frankish conquest the official language was changed to Middle-German or Old Frankish-which has evolved into Old Dutch.Edelward (talk) 20:39, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly so, yes, when I look at German, Dutch, and for example Danish, there are connections that could carry over to Afrikaans (though it sounds totally different when spoken). The word 'boer' means 'farmer' in Afrikaans. There's a seperate word 'buur', meaning neighbour, which is derived from Dutch also. I think that the word refers to how historically, Boer folk lived on farms and raised their families there. And, in agreement with what you are saying, the Wiktionary article (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boer#Dutch) on the word says that in Dutch it refers to 'neighbour' and has roots in an Old English word meaning 'habitation'. It's wonderful how it's all interconnected. --86.5.226.63 (talk) 22:05, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: One thing that bothered me about this article is the use of Boers vs Boere. Granted that this is an English article, and the English plural of the bilingual Boer is Boere, there are still more places than those already in the article where I would have found Boere more natural.  Would anyone object if I changed a few of those?  BTW, although I am perfectly bilingual, I have no axe to grind - this is just a discomfort with the language.Teachalakazi (talk) 19:01, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boer means  

message: 86.46.80.234 (talk) 15:59, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Invmog (talk) 23:12, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  That statement is nonsense anyway, even if you'd accept the fictional two nations theory. Christian Identity is called Israel Vision or Israeliete in South Africa. They basically believe that Whites including Afrikaners are the biological offspring from the ancient Israelites in the bible. Among Afrikaans speaking Whites in South Africa they are a small minority of less then two percent, which again is splintered up in more then 20 different versions. Now some of them would call themselves Afrikaners, some will call themselves Boers. Of the later you will again find some that support the two nations theory. Since they themselves are even a tinier minority, it may be the case that "many" of the two-nations-theorists are "Israelites" at the same time. --197.228.30.71 (talk) 15:57, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concerning the section under Characteristics/Calvinism 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Boer. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150205172319/http://calvinistcorner.com/predestination.htm to http://www.calvinistcorner.com/predestination.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 17:33, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: '''
They like to defend themselves and often have firearms.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.176 (talk) 18:01, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: What's your problem Deon? Are you a Boerophobe? Christianophobe? 
86.27.114.248 19:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The personal attack of "Boerophobe? Christianophobe?" comes from a blocked neo-nazi user (JBAK) and should have been removed (I did not see it until now). Please refrain from making personal attacks (WP:NPA) and keep the exchanges civil (Wikipedia:Civil) and kindly limit discussions to the article contents. --Deon Steyn 06:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Internationally recognized nation 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Boer. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070926235742/http://husky1.smu.ca/~wmills/course316/18White_Settlers.html to http://husky1.smu.ca/~wmills/course316/18White_Settlers.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100308014642/http://www.oulitnet.co.za/seminarroom/marais_swart.asp to http://www.oulitnet.co.za/seminarroom/marais_swart.asp
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:35, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Several Wikipedians have raised questions here about omissions in, and possible additions in edits of, the article in question.  I submit, if these topics have substantive support from real textual documents, that they be added responsibly and that the editors duly cite their sources.  If these topics are not currently represented, it's because no-one has done this or because sources acceptable to Wikipedia haven't been identified.
This isn't meant as a chat site for ethical opinions concerning the actual topic; it's about means and reasons for editing the article.  I'm all for expanding articles to include pertinent points - so long as it's done without personal bias and done according to Wikipedia policy.  Wikipedia's the greatest research paper in the world and we need to keep in mind the worldwide audience and what's best for all.
I'm grateful to PBS for providing some of the text from what appears to be a 1911 edition of Encyclopedia Britannica; but this is still a woefully biased source and especially from a modern perspective its continued use here might best be regarded only sceptically.
Thanks, all, for all you do.
Jonnie Comet (talk) 04:08, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional points and topics 

message: I wonder if the views expressed here are shared by a significant portion of the Afrikaner/Boer community. I suspect that a dichotomy between Boere and Afrikaners is not advocated by many, although I don't have any statistics on this. It would be appreciated if any source could be provided which shows that there is a major group of people that consider themselves "Boere" but not "Afrikaners". Being an Afrikaner/Boer myself I haven't ever heard of this distinction before reading this article, and I'm from the Transvaal (not the Cape), so by all accounts I would have heard of it by now. Even the sources cited for this article all seem to claim that "Boer" a synonym for "Afrikaner". I suspect the group considering themselves to be Boere to the exclusion of being Afrikaners is small enough not to be notable in this way (as opposed to those who consider the two terms synonymous). Maybe I've just been living with my head in the sand, though; a reference as to the statistics behind this would be useful. -- WolfieInu 16:03, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll say this, as an Afrikaner and a Boer I've taken offense to being called a Boer and don't think I'll ever receive it in a negative way just like a U.S. citizen probably won't care if you call them an American. Invmog (talk) 04:13, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

text: Sorry, I meant to write, "I've NEVER taken offense to being called a Boer." I'm proud to be a Boer/Afrikaner, whichever I'm called. Invmog (talk) 03:33, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

text: There is something rather odd about this article. The term Boar went out of fashion in 20th century because of urbanization. The Afrikaners called themselves Boars in the 19th century because that is what they were. But it is strange to be calling oneself a Boar (farmer) if one lives in the city, which is where the majority of the Afrikaners have been living since the middle of the 20th century, which is why the term Afrikaner came into use. One would not know this from reading this article, but the change in terminology came about because of urbanization and the fact that the majority of Afrikaners are middle-class people. This article would benefit by noting this. --A.S. Brown (talk) 18:28, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boer/Afrikaner dichotomy? 

message: Having a dedicated heading for only the 6th frontier war is lazy at best. The war in totality from 1779 - 1878 are excluded, also, the content makes no mention of any of the Boer involvements. An existing main article already exist on the Xhosa Wars. Thus a revision is required of said section. I will make the required changes to include the war in totality but not in too much detail since the main article already covers most part. The changes will place into perspective and have reference to the Boers since the page this is what the article is about.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boershistory (talk • contribs) 06:50, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frontier Wars