Talk:Flogging a dead horse/Archive 1

message: from VfD:
This entry explains a single English idiom.  At length.  With examples.  As Wikipedia is not a dictionary, there does not seem to be much to do with this article but delete it.  -- Antaeus Feldspar 21:51, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div>
I know i might be beating a dead horse here but keep The Heakes (talk) 05:03, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote for delete

message: I agree with that technically "stable" is the right word and "barn" is not, but "closing the barn door" is still widely used.  Idiom isn't always sensible.  -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:06, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite so, but I tried about eight permutations of wording on Google (shutting/closing, barn/stable, gets out/bolted) and went with the version with the most hits. Securiger 16:56, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent research.  In this region I've always heard "barn door", never "stable door", but it looks like it's just this region. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:06, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  stables and barns 

message: This article should be renamed "flogging a dead horse", and "beating a dead horse" should be redirected to it. The origin of the idiom is English (British) and is actually "flogging a dead horse". To say that in Australian and British "it is usually rendered", gives the impression that it is an American idiom, adopted and adapted by the British, whereas the reverse is actually the case.
To quote an external reference to the origins:
"flog (or beat) a dead horse. Though he supported the measure, British politician and orator John Bright thought the Reform Bill of 1867, which called for more democratic representation, would never be passed by Parliament. Trying to rouse Parliament from its apathy on the issue, he said in a speech, would be like trying to 'flog a dead horse' to make it pull a load. This is the first recorded use of the expression, which is still common for 'trying to revive interest in an apparently hopeless issue.' Bright's silver tongue is also responsible for 'England is the mother of Parliament,' and 'Force is not a remedy,' among other memorable quotations. He was wrong about the Reform Bill of 1867, however. Parliament 'carried' it, as the British say." From the "Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins" by Robert Hendrickson (Facts on File, New York, 1997.)
Richard BF 22:45, 11 Nov 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rename

message: I added the origins of the phrase (17th C worker's slang for work already paid for).  I was a little sceptical of this etymology when I saw it in wiktionary, but it's in the OED so there you go. 
I'd like to see it moved to "Flogging", too.  I might post it on RM. FiggyBee 19:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Check Google - "beating a dead horse" wins by a landslide. --DLandTALK 19:49, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  True, but 'flogging' was apparently the original usage. -- Ishel99 (talk) 02:09, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Origins

message: Surely this article should be 'Flogging a dead horse' with a redirect from 'Beating a dead horse'? The origins of the term are British, and its original form was (and still is, in large parts of the world), flogging a dead horse.  The article lead suggests the later American idiom came first/takes precedence.  Surely the history of the phrase in the naming of this article should take precedence over its Google count (which I thought wasn't an allowable factor in arguments due to systemic bias anyway?).  It seems a nonsense to have the later version of the phrase as the article's name. Stronach (talk) 08:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree entirely. Bazonka (talk) 08:16, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Made this move per several uncontested advocacies of it here, since 'flog' was the original usage. -- Ishel99 (talk) 02:07, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Rename

message: The article mentions "Smythe" without any explanation of who he/she is/was.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.28.15 (talk) 14:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Who Is Smythe?

message: I'm an American and the way I hear this expression most often used is if someone continues to present arguements after the discussion has already been decided. Kitfoxxe (talk) 18:14, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Usage

message: book by Martin Robson - on this idiom he mentions the idiom may come from the Spanish (pg59-60) and in fact they had a horse figure that was hoisted and then knocked down. The entry is not written very clearly in the book. But its seems like a kind of piñata. Dates and better refs I don't have. But if so it woudl make a better reason for keeping the article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.231.182.113 (talk) 12:17, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: NOT ENOUGH ROOM TO SWING A CAT

message: The horse winds article should be checked out, the roaring forties will take you there, it has a good explanation of a parallel? origin. It needs inclusion and linking. Penyulap talk 13:23, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The nautical origins 

message: Original definition:
Flogging a dead horse (...) is an idiom that means to continue a particular endeavour is a waste of time as the outcome is already decided. 
But:
# Continuation is no criterion. Think about something, that you can do only once.
# The word "decided" suggest somebody who decides. But the outcome does not have to be decided. Sometimes the laws of physics are enough.
# The current definition also refers to the positive outcome, which should be excluded.
The new definition:
Flogging a dead horse (...) is an idiom meaning that trying to do something impossible is a waste of time.
Vikom (talk) 00:17, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  A better definition