Talk:Íñigo Arista

message: I have made a series of changes as separate edits:
1. correct relationship of Iñigo to Musà.  This is simply correcting a mistake.  There is no doubt about the relationship as Iñigo is explicitly called brother via the mother of Musà ibn Musà by the chronicler Ibn Hayyan, and is reported as such in every history book that covers the period. (e.g. the Menendez Pidal Historia de España, Lévi-Provençal's Histoire de l'Espagne musulmane, etc.)
2. regency. Ibn Hayyan reports the roles of Fortun and Garcia, and Fortun's death, while the embassy to Charlemagne is reported in a Frankish chronicle. J. Pérez de Urbel, "Lo viejo y lo nuevo sobre el origin del Reino de Pamplona" in Al-Andalus, XIX (1954), 1-30. Lévi-Provençal, E. and Emilio Garcia Gómez. "Textos inéditos del "Muqtabis" de Ibn Hayyan sobre los orígines del Reino de Pamplona". Al-Andalus. 19:295-315 (1954)
3. wife and daughter. Regarding the wife, see, for example, Thierry Stasser. "Consanguinity et Alliances Dynastiques en Espagne au Haut Moyen Age: La Politique Matrimoniale de la Reinne Tota de Navarre". Hidalguia. No. 277: 811-39 (1999) speculates that the wife of Iñigo was probably a member of the family that gave rise to the later counts of Aragon, and was perhaps named Tota. Christian Settipani, La Noblesse du midi carolingien, Occasional Publiucations of the Unit for Prosopographical Research, Vol. 5. shows two 13th century chronicles giving the two names, Tota in one, Oneca in the other. He uses Tota in subsequent charts and speculates about her origin. Luiz Mello Vaz de São Payo. "A Ascendência de D. Afonso Henriques". Raízes & Memórias Nos. 2,3,4,5,6,7,8. calls her Oneca and has her as daughter of Valasco. José Maria Lacarra. "Textos navarros del Códice de Roda". Estudios de Edad Media de la Corona de Aragon. 1:194-283 (1945) discusses the genealogy of these families as well as all relevant documentation, but gives no named wife to Iñigo, which given the thoroughness of the study is of value if only through omission.  As to "Nunila", Lacarra, "Textos navarros del Códice de Roda" shows the surviving source material, which does not name this daughter.
4. succession.  Ibn Hayyan writing not long afterwards, explicitly states in his entry for 851/2 that Iñigo died and was succeeded by his son Garcia. Lévi-Provençal and Garcia Gómez. "Textos inéditos del "Muqtabis" de Ibn Hayyan"; Pérez de Urbel, "Lo viejo y lo nuevo". Jimeno does appear to have been prominant enough to have sent envoys to Charlemagne along with Iñigo, but that is the only historical reference to him, except in so far as his son's name, Garcia Jimenez, indicates that he was son of a Jimeno, (Pérez de Urbel, "Lo viejo y lo nuevo") and the latter is said to have held sway in "another part of the kingdom", (Lacarra, "Textos navarros del Códice de Roda"), suggesting either that the region had not consolidated into a single political entity yet, or that the Jimenez ruled as regional sub-kings. (Pérez de Urbel, "Lo viejo y lo nuevo"; Pérez de Urbel, "Jimenos y Velas en Portugal". Revista Portuguesa de História. 5:475-492 (1951)).
5. parentage and kinship. His patronymic comes from ibn Hayyan, Lévi-Provençal and Garcia Gómez. "Textos inéditos del "Muqtabis" de Ibn Hayyan"; Pérez de Urbel, "Lo viejo y lo nuevo". For examples of speculation regarding his origins and kinship, see Lacarra, "Textos navarros del Códice de Roda", Perez de Urbel and Ricardo del Arco y Garay. Espana Christiana: Comienzo de la Reconquista (711-1038). (Menéndez Pidal) Historia de Espana, vol. 6 (1964), and a different hypothesis for the origin of the Jimenez, Luiz Mello Vaz de São Payo. "A Ascendência de D. Afonso Henriques". For dating the marriage to Musa ibn Fortun, see Alberto Cañada Juste, "Los Banu Qasi (714-924)". Principe de Viana 41:5-95 (1980); Simon Hayak. "Los Banu Qasi". Boletin de la Asociacion Español de Orientalists 28:143-157 (1992). 
Agricolae 01:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: What do people think about the "de Sousa Girao" family's claim to direct descent from him? Here in a rather well respected royal DNA project ( http://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx?section=yresults ) there's a participant with surname "de Sousa Girao" who's claiming direct descent from Íñigo Arista. However, this page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visconde_de_S%C3%A3o_Jorge ) states that the "de Sousa Girao" family is famous for professional forgeries. СЛУЖБА (talk) 21:49, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, FamilyTreeDNA family pages are open to anyone saying anything.  They maybe respected for their ability to produce accurate DNA marker analysis, but individual customers provide the information associated with those haplotypes with no review for reliability.  As I said on my Talk page, no such descent exists and any claim is at best wishful thinking and at worst forgery. Agricolae (talk) 02:31, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "de Sousa Girao" claim. 

message: This is a semantic oxymoron.  One either descends from someone or one doesn't. There is no such thing as an indirect descent (unless one is speaking of a great-uncle or something, and then the use of the term descent could itself be questioned.  Garcia Sanchez I was the great-great-great-grandson of Inigo Arista, nothing indirect about it.  The descent was in the female line, which may be what is being implied by 'indirect', but if this is deemed worth specifying, then it is better to express it in those terms - that they descended in the female line, rather than treating a female-line descent as somehow less direct than a male-line descent. Agricolae (talk) 23:48, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indirect descent 

message: I am not entirely happy with the creation of this section.  The three different parts of his name, while ostensibly sharing the common feature of being parts of his name, are actually addressing two distinct biographical questions and one question dealing with how he came to be remembered, and thus 'Name' doesn't actually represent a natural grouping for the discussion of these separate concepts.  Likewise, I can't think of the page for any other monarch where we have a section that breaks down the etymology of their name, just for the sake of doing it.  If, as I suspect, the goal of detailing Eneko is to demonstrate his Basque origin, then we should say this explicitly as part of a discussion of his origin.  If not, if it really is just for etymology, then something like what is done in the first line of Alfred the Great will suffice.  I don't have a problem with discussing the origin of Arista - in fact, it should be discussed as he was remembered more by this name among Christian sources than his patronymic, but there isn't a single contemporary record that calls him that (unfortunately, there isn't a single contemporary record at all except perhaps for the report of his embassy to the French court naming Induo) so this should be more a discussion of the fact that this is how he was remembered, including what it may mean and the earliest document to call him this name (? the Codice de Roda?, if we can find a reliable source).  As to the patronymic, it was originally being used as evidence for the name of his father, not for its own sake. All of this is worthwhile information, I just don't think that leading royal biographies with name etymology sections is the way to go, when as I said it is really documenting three distinct concepts, origin, paternity and remembrance.  Agricolae (talk) 22:17, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: My drive is not to demonstrate nothing but to show what is actually missing. The article is pretty detailed, but new sections make no harm, actually enhance it. Eneko/Íñigo is known as Arista in all or most biographies, as it happens with Charles "Martel", it is a matter of usage. While Alfred the Great poses no doubts, Alfred is a very well known name in English, Eneko is not, so the name demands an explanation. If "Name" is too ugly a heading, I can add all the explanation in a second introductory paragraph, three or four lines. Iñaki LL (talk) 08:14, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The name Alfred is common, but its meaning is obscure (to the every-day reader).  We just don't discuss the etymology of names in biographies like this - I don't know of a single like bibliography that does so.  We have a page on the name itself, Inigo for that purpose.  As to Arista, yes, it is about usage, and as I said, I think it would be good to show the earliest this usage is found, and in what context, but it need not be in the same place as the meaning of Íñigo is given as the two are distinct concepts.  I will experiment a little when I have time. Agricolae (talk) 13:19, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, I note that Inigo could really use some attention - it refers to it as a Welsh name of Basque origin, when it is really a Basque name that has on occasion been used by Welsh. Agricolae (talk) 13:33, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: While the international equations ES Alfredo EN Alfred DE Alfred, or ES Ignacio EN Ignatius DE Ignatius, etc. are well known, that is not the case for Ínigo/Eneko, still subject to confusion. That's why at least a short explanation is due, more so if we bear in mind that Íñigo is a later Spanish or Romance language development, not the original name. A link to Inigo may fix part of the deficiencies, but as I see, the article needs some revising --I may go through it later myself if I have time. As for Arista, it is a widely accepted form and I wouldn´t touch it. Charles "Martel" may have never been "Martel" during his lifetime, that should be highlighted, since many people have been led to think otherwise, but I would let it (the name) rest. Iñaki LL (talk) 20:10, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You misunderstand me.  I don't want to touch it.  I want to explain it - what might it mean and how early is it found? (with cites, which I unfortunately don't have)  I just don't think this is really the same inherent theme as an explanation of what his patronymic implies about his paternity.  One is addressing how he is remembered, the other is addressing the only detail we know (sort of) about his father.  The later should be an integral part of a discussion of his origin, the former of his historical legacy. They don't belong in the same paragraph, let alone a whole section.  As I said, when I have time I will experiment. Agricolae (talk) 03:21, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name section 

message: Is Leyre's foundation under Íñigo accepted by critical scholars?  I know that they have documents claiming this to be the case, but I also know that these are all of dubious authenticity.  Medieval monasteries were notorious for forging an earlier history for themselves so we really need a modern critical scholarly analysis of the specific question to be comfortable of this (while if it were recast as 'it was later claimed' that would remove the problem).  Agricolae (talk) 22:23, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I have seen it written in a few articles, and it can be thought to have been founded by him, the monastery being initially Benedictine tells a lot. The solution you presented may fix the problem. Iñaki LL (talk) 08:19, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leyre