Talk:Batman Begins/Archive 2

message: I think the Cancelled Projects has been allowed to exist for far too long. The tag for not citing sources has been there for at least a month and now another completely uncited section has been added. I think its time to axe the section per WP:VERIFY. Gdo01 03:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur.  This doesn't seem to belong, at least not in this film article.  If this information has citation behind it, maybe it can be part of some Batman film franchise article, but definitely not here. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 05:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The production based on Year One and the production of Batman Begins both drew from the same source.  I don't think that Batman Begins drew from the leftovers of the Year One cancelled project.  Of course, there's no citation whatsoever about these projects, so that information can't be verified.  Actually, I think that all the cancelled project information should be merged to Batman in popular media#Cancelled Batman Projects, which currently exists. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 17:15, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In the absence of any citation, I would tend to agree.  If anyone can substantiate that the Batman Begins budget was charged for those aborted films, as was the case for Superman Returns, then it would merit inclusion here.  I don't know that to be the case, though, and until we do they all belong in their own article.  --Chancemichaels 19:22, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to this DVD review, there is a paragraph about a DVD featurette called "Genesis of the Bat" (15 min.), which said, "It starts off by describing the influence the original comics -- specifically 'The Long Halloween', Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams' Ra's al Ghul stories, 'The Man who Falls', and Frank Miller's 'Batman: Year One' -- had on the film, but it gradually turns into an extended plug for DC's thoroughly awful All-Star Batman and Robin comic."  I don't have the movie with me to flesh out these influential sources, so if anyone has the DVD, the information is there to detail the influences on Batman Begins (and to cite as well). --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 19:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have it. This thing's like the friggen Grubman costume. Anyway, I have it. What do you want me to look at and how can we cite it? Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 22:38, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The paragraph said that the film was influenced by Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: The Man Who Falls, Batman: Year One, and the Ra's al Ghul stories by Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams.  What you could do is verify that the commentary did mention these sources (though I'm pretty sure the reviewer wouldn't lie about something like that).  You can also find out if there are any more mentioned in the commentary such as Batman: Dark Victory or Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, which are both listed but uncited in this article's "Influences" subsection.  Also, if possible, find out some detail behind each influence, such as which source influenced what aspect of the film?  I'm sure when we get the information verified, we can cite using some citation template that allows us to reference DVD commentary. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 22:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. I've gotta go shopping in a bit, but I'll come back to this first thing tonight or tomorrow. There's definitely a lot to flesh out. I'm thinkin'...full rewrite. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 23:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Terrific addition!  I actually learned some new things about what inspired the film.  I edited your new paragraph's wording a little bit, but the overall content remains intact.  (I assume that the last sentence that I edited out was just left over from you piecing the information together?)  I tried to dig up a citation about Nolan and Blade Runner last night, but I couldn't seem to find a direct source, just links to pages that have IMDb-style trivia... but anyway, this is seriously a major step for making a better article!  Thanks for your contribution. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 13:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Probably just the feel of the comics (Year One, Long Halloween) was what influenced Batman Begins. Hopefully, they can adapt some of the other stories like Dark Victory and/or The Killing Joke. Look at Sin City, they were able to adapt that to the big screen quite faithfully. Let's see Nolan do that. --Jonathan.Bruce 07:17, 6 Nov 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cancelled Projects 

message: :::According to this DVD review, there is a paragraph about a DVD featurette called "Genesis of the Bat" (15 min.), which said, "It starts off by describing the influence the original comics -- specifically 'The Long Halloween', Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams' Ra's al Ghul stories, 'The Man who Falls', and Frank Miller's 'Batman: Year One' -- had on the film, but it gradually turns into an extended plug for DC's thoroughly awful All-Star Batman and Robin comic."  I don't have the movie with me to flesh out these influential sources, so if anyone has the DVD, the information is there to detail the influences on Batman Begins (and to cite as well). --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 19:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have it. This thing's like the friggen Grubman costume. Anyway, I have it. What do you want me to look at and how can we cite it? Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 22:38, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The paragraph said that the film was influenced by Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: The Man Who Falls, Batman: Year One, and the Ra's al Ghul stories by Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams.  What you could do is verify that the commentary did mention these sources (though I'm pretty sure the reviewer wouldn't lie about something like that).  You can also find out if there are any more mentioned in the commentary such as Batman: Dark Victory or Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, which are both listed but uncited in this article's "Influences" subsection.  Also, if possible, find out some detail behind each influence, such as which source influenced what aspect of the film?  I'm sure when we get the information verified, we can cite using some citation template that allows us to reference DVD commentary. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 22:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. I've gotta go shopping in a bit, but I'll come back to this first thing tonight or tomorrow. There's definitely a lot to flesh out. I'm thinkin'...full rewrite. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 23:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Terrific addition!  I actually learned some new things about what inspired the film.  I edited your new paragraph's wording a little bit, but the overall content remains intact.  (I assume that the last sentence that I edited out was just left over from you piecing the information together?)  I tried to dig up a citation about Nolan and Blade Runner last night, but I couldn't seem to find a direct source, just links to pages that have IMDb-style trivia... but anyway, this is seriously a major step for making a better article!  Thanks for your contribution. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 13:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Probably just the feel of the comics (Year One, Long Halloween) was what influenced Batman Begins. Hopefully, they can adapt some of the other stories like Dark Victory and/or The Killing Joke. Look at Sin City, they were able to adapt that to the big screen quite faithfully. Let's see Nolan do that. --Jonathan.Bruce 07:17, 6 Nov 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Inspiration

message: I have just added reasonably substantial content to the "Departure from canon" bit, and fixed a few parts as well. It is interesting that such a part exists here and should be applied to other Bat-film articles as well. Batman's tendency not to save some villains is not exclusively present in Batman Begins (note when he threw a thug into a pothole and let him explode in Batman Returns, or when he used the Joker to shield himself from bullets in Batman: A Death in the Family. Also, major parts (which I have just added in, but only a little) such as Bruce's training around the world and how he came to use the bat as his totem were neglected. Anyway, keep it up, fellow editors of this article!      
5 November 2006   7:57 Singapore time    Jedd the Jedi
You're right on. I mean, Bats coulda saved Ra's on the burning train, but he chose not to save him. It's not like in Tim Burton's films where he just kills without remorse, (that made Batman too dark) but he will use extreme force to protect himself and others. Perhaps, if some major comics fan, like you Jedd the Jedi, could direct an installment, he/she could include that training in Alaska (see the Man Who Falls and LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT #1) and how he chose the bat as his totem. You could direct a film, man, keep working on it! --Jonathan.Bruce 07:20, 6 Nov 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No kidding. I'm working on a script treatment of "The Long Halloween" right now. I'm planning to ask Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale's permission, then I'll contact Warner Bros within a few years to try and have it adapted. Of course, this could contradict the Begins sequels, but I can have Harvey Dent get plastic surgery and resort back to Two-Face by the end! And, yeah, I'm more writer than a reader. --Jonathan.Bruce 05:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, it is, for exactly those reasons. However, I like "Divergence from comics", if only because I like the word "divergence". :) EVula // talk // ☯ // 16:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there is a brief mention about comparing Batman Begins to the other films (like Batman killing in Batman), but I've changed the section title otherwise.  Divergence is a nice word, but Departure seems suitable enough already. :-P --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 18:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Departure from comics 

message: Can anyone write a paragraph about Gotham City in the film to precede the paragraph about how Nolan and Crowley conceived of its design?  The Batmobile and Batsuit subsections have lead paragraphs detailing its existence in the fictional universe, and Gotham City should have the same thing.  Just describe (as objectively as possible) the history of Gotham City, such as the train system being implemented by the Waynes, Ra's al Ghul trying to bring the city down via economics as a weapon, Carmine Falcone being in charge, the corrupt police, etc.  It would be greatly appreciated, thanks. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 16:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gotham City 

message: It's a pretty good article, it only needs some minor adjustments. I'll put the article "on hold."
#Well written?: Pass. It seems to be ok, although I think the last part of this sentence Roger Ebert, who had panned all previous live-action Batman movies, gave Batman Begins 4 stars out of 4, calling it "the Batman movie I've been waiting for", would sound better this way ...gave Batman Begins 4 stars out of 4, saying it was "the Batman movie [he had] been waiting for".
#Factually accurate?: Pass
#Broad in its coverage?: Pass
#Neutral point of view?: Pass
#Stable?: Ok
#Images?: Fail. [Image:Rachelsave.jpg] does not have a fair use rationale.
Something else, the article is in the "Articles with unsourced statements" category. Find a citation or this sentence Nolan said that in the continuity, Gotham City is located somewhere around New Jersey and New York.[citation needed] or remove it. 
If the above concerns are addressed, I'll pass it.:) Nat91 16:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: GA review

message: I think that the Production section needs to forego sectioning, as many FA-class film articles seem to have that kind of setup.  The challenge would be "stitching" the production information together so that it would flow.  I'd suggest, though, that "Influences" and "Departure from canon" be exported from the Production section, since the information is supplementary in nature.  Perhaps they can be set up as subsections under an "Adaptation" section, since influences and comparisons would fall under that category.  I'm not sure about the film score, though... I think there's a couple of citations about IGN's interview with the composers which would help flesh out the film score to have its own section.  That would leave the Development and Filming subsections to combine, and I think we can expand on that using the production notes from the film (you can find them in References).  Any additional suggestions or comments are welcome. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 17:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've re-arranged as per above.  I have a couple of questions: Do we need all these awards and nominations?  Most of the list consists of nominations, anyway.  What consists whether an award or a nomination is worthy of mention?  Also, I want to make a "See also" section for the link to the soundtrack and the video game instead of having filler.  The soundtrack information can be moved to its article.  It'd save on some space.  If there's any issue, just comment here.  Otherwise, I'll make the change in a bit. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 19:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd only list the ones that were won, if any, and we'd need a source for them. It isn't like we can simply go back and watch the ceremonies at will. Bignole 19:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If there are not that many awards that have been "won" I think we could take those that were and maybe put them in the lead paragraph. If there aren't enough to support a section we could find a place for them within another appropriate section. Bignole 20:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a good idea.  I think that Wally Pfister's nomination for cinematography should be in the lead paragraph(s) as well to reflect the notability of the film's style. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 20:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I've added references for all of them except for MTV Movie Awards - can't seem to find a direct source, and I don't really want to    deal with MTV.com's ridiculously crappy interface as it is these days.  I think that maybe a rule of thumb we could use is that if there's not a Wikipedia article about an award show or the organization that sponsors it, get rid of it.  Then trim the rest, like I don't really know if the Razzie nomination is worth a mention.  Doesn't seem encyclopedic in this particular case if the person didn't even win.  (I thought Katie Holmes did just fine as Rachel Dawes in this film, sheesh.) --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 21:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestions for improvement 

message: I was wondering if this movie retconed the rest of the Batman movies? I personally loved the 1st 2 movies and find them much darker and more stylized then Batman Begins. I found it odd that they re did the whole act of Bruce Wayne's parents dying. If indeed this movie retconed the rest, maybe there should be a section on it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DevilsAlwaysCry (talk • contribs) 06:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Batman Begins is the first in a completely new series of Batman films and not to be considered a prequel or "retcon", as stated in the article. In the future, please read articles and remember that Wikipedia talk pages are not forums. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 06:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did this movie retcon the rest? 

message: I don't think that the new image for the Gotham City subsection suits it very well; it's about as useful as the image in the Plot section with Batman and Gordon.  Is there a better image to replace it, if we even need an image at all? --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 01:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, image's been removed, anyway. :)  I haven't seen the movie in a while; are there any prominent shots of contemporary Gotham City in the film that would help illustrate the universe?  Especially a shot that separates Gotham City from a typical city? --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 01:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gotham City image? 

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Batman_bale_small.jpg
I saw this on the Batman page. This image has a broader view of the suit, with more detail. The tagging is incorrect on it, but I think it better illustrates the suit. Anyone else's thoughts? Bignole
:Hmm, I wouldn't mind replacing the current one with that image.  I think we probably have too many actual screenshots in the article as it is.  This one definitely shows quality detail. --Erik (talk/contrib) @ 15:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think replacing the "film screenshot" tag (which isn't correct) with one of the copyright tags that are used for the gallery on the Batmobiles might be more appropriate. But, we may have to consult someone from the images help center on that. Bignole 15:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Batsuit 

message: I'm starting to think that we should remove this subsection or at least start requiring citations for it.  The original research for the subsection seems to be getting out of hand, and with this basis, it's too difficult to question what content to include or not.  What do other editors think? —Erik (talk • contrib) - 23:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This isn't "let's find all the differences in the film compared to the 'many' comics it was inspired from". I'm sure there are plenty of similarities and differences between this film and the comics. IMO, if we don't have a reliable source discusses the differences (even then try and keep them to the most important ones..the fact that batman's symbol is different at this point in his life is irrelevant, or anything like that) then we shouldn't be including it. Personal comparisons of two source materials is still Original Research, because you can't see if it's just a coincidence or intention or what. No source no place. Just my opinion. Bignole 00:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  In addition, the sources should be about the observations made and not just citing a comic book issue (like an issue where the actual Ra's Al Ghul appears in his Arabic look in order to compare to the film version).  I think this would minimize effort and keep the section from becoming unwieldy. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 00:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. Bignole 00:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Diddo. The section started out as fan criticism and still exists as a a short "free for all" OR-factory. I'd say either delete it wholesale or find/require citations and remove the rest. I'm leaning toward the former. Wikipedia isn't the place for people to add little reviewers and critiques. Also, we already have sections about the batsuit ands batmobile, so any data about those should be kept out and/or moved if present/added. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 00:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: As I'm looking at it again, I'm thinking Ace has the best idea..get rid of it completely. It really does nothing more than compare the film to the comic, when the film is based on not only several comics (not just one), but also an original interpretation of the character. There really isn't a point to say "Batman didn't do this in the comics" when this isn't an adaptation. This isn't like "JAWS" where you have a film based on a novel, it's film based on a character, with elements from several sources. What changes they make doesn't really make a difference in an encyclopedia. Bignole 00:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research in "Departure from comics" 

message: Hey, fellas, just got your message regarding my edits to this section. I appreciate the guidance. My question is this: the points I made are easily verifiable by viewing the movie and reading the Year One comic. Couldn't I just cite Year One as my reference? Probably not, I'm assuming. I respect the guidlines regarding citing references, and I realize my frustration is not with this section of the article per se but more with the original reference downplaying the film's debt to Year One as there are clearly more parallels to that comic than what are mentioned in the DVD documentary cited (forgive me, but I haven't seen the documentary; my DVD is the special "sucker" edition with no extras). I'm new to Wikipedia and having fun with it, but I want to make additions that are relevant and valuable, so your advice is apprecated. Cris Varengo 03:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In my experience, it's a pretty thin line between making "obvious" connections and relatively obscure connections.  A lot of trivia on film articles tend to be based on these connections and usually aren't qualified as encyclopedic.  I doubt that your connections between Batman Begins and Year One are wrong, but some editors, myself included, desire a high level of authenticity on this article, The Dark Knight, and Spider-Man 3 (though the articles on Spider-Man's preceding films are in pretty gross shape).  I think what you could do, if you wanted to expand the Year One connection, is Google for reliable sources with Year One and Batman Begins as the keyword.  Who knows, maybe there's an interview where the connections are more explicitly drawn than in the DVD featurette. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 03:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the tip. I might do that, but I'll probably just leave it alone; this section does refer to the film's debt to Year One and any one who decides to compare the two will discover the other parallels between the film and the comic for themselves. My own personal observation is definitely that the film drew heavily from Year One, which is a good thing. I loved Year One and I loved this film. My opinion is that the featurette (which in all fairness I haven't seen) must kind of downplay the film's debt to Year One. But this is making an issue out of nothing, I suppose. Many scenes in the movie have direct, nearly identical parallels in Year One, but I guess any faithful film translation of Batman's early career would have to if they were following current comics canon. Cris Varengo 04:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The featurette mentions various comics and isn't the best resource for full encyclopedic citation or comic fan satisfying data. The use of Year One is mostly implied through imagery rather than wording. Ultimately, I'd encourage you and anyone else to seek out sources and cite sources better suited for an encyclopedia. I'm sure the DVD extra just doesn't do the facts justice. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 08:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: A couple more citations that mention Dark Victory (removed from the article a while ago due to lack of citation) as a reference: VH1 and IGN again. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 18:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think including more information, from other sources, into the "influences" section would be the best thing to do. Obviously, the DVD featurette takes precidence over anything else, as it literally has the film makers discussing what was what, but sometimes even they can forget something or just not have time to go into detail. I'd also just use the IGN "Comic/Film" entry. Bignole 19:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I'd let it stay. It allows us to say, "look there is already a link to a site that has dozens of links". It could help us keep the external links section from growing too large. Bignole 19:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influences section 

message: I followed my own advice of Googling the keywords Batman Begins and Year One.  In the process, I uncovered some interesting sources.  First of all, David S. Goyer talked a bit more about Year One influences with in an interview with SFX magazine (couldn't find the interview on SFX home page).  This could be inserted into the Influences section; probably would need to change the DVD featurette citation into multiple references if we're going to go back and forth between citations.  Secondly, I have an idea to address the "Departure from comics" dilemma.  We could provide informative sites in the External links and keep any comparison out of the article entirely.  IGN has a Comic Vs. Film analysis.  There's also a less reliable blog entry that draws comparisons and differences as well.  My suggestion is that the editors can agree on what seems to be the most appropriate links to include in External links.  I'm fine with including both, but if I had to choose one, I'd go with the IGN analysis.  Let me know what you think. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 18:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A couple more citations that mention Dark Victory (removed from the article a while ago due to lack of citation) as a reference: VH1 and IGN again. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 18:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think including more information, from other sources, into the "influences" section would be the best thing to do. Obviously, the DVD featurette takes precidence over anything else, as it literally has the film makers discussing what was what, but sometimes even they can forget something or just not have time to go into detail. I'd also just use the IGN "Comic/Film" entry. Bignole 19:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I'd let it stay. It allows us to say, "look there is already a link to a site that has dozens of links". It could help us keep the external links section from growing too large. Bignole 19:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Expansion

message: just like Spidey 3, I think Ill see what can be done here for help. Anyway, they dont seem to like me to much ofver there. Boggydark 08:37, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Boggy, as you've seen ThuranX say at Talk:Spider-Man 3, the difficulty in trying to help you understand why your edits are not appropriate have been reported to the administrators' noticeboard.  I suggest that you hold off on editing further and see what an administrator has to say to you about the situation. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 16:19, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improvemant