Talk:Trinity/Archive 1

message: The one perfect observer, symbolized by ‘1’, does not exist as a unit but he exists as the Trinity which consists of the observer, that which the observer observes and the difference between the two. There is no place or time in our reality where the Trinity would not apply. We ourselves are the Trinity. Being eternal the Trinity is invariable and perfect. When there is nothing to observe the observer is on his own and he can observe only himself. The duality of the observer with himself, as 2 identical 1/2, is static in the ‘now’, but when the same duality is observed it changes plurality and position to within the next ‘now’. The two observations create difference between 2 and 4. Because of the lack of balance in the difference the observer is motivated to observe the 4 parts 1/4 of the static ‘1’. The internal dynamism within the static ‘1’ cannot be stopped and it creates plurality of 2 to power ‘n’ of parts 1/2 to power ‘n’ for all ‘n’ in (0<n<oo). It is obvious, from the above considerations, that it is the perfect observer who, out of Nothingness of itself, creates change and dynamism.  KK  (81.159.57.213 (talk) 19:48, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: If this is personal speculation on your part, it would not appear to have much to do with editing the article... AnonMoos (talk) 23:13, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

text: If this is your personal speculation, it doesn't belong on the article... AnonMoos (talk) 07:35, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eternal Trinity. 

message: The saying that 'in the beginning there was Nothing out of which, or in which, God created the World' implies that before the beginning there was the Trinity of God, Nothingness and the reason why God acted. The change from non-existence to existence of the World was quantitative, continuous or a combination of the two. If symbol ‘0’ stands for Nothingness and non-existence and symbol '1' stands for full existence then Nothingness, God and the difference between them can be represented by symbol (0<1). Symbol (<) stands for two observations in the two 'now' seen as one unit when the difference is viewed all at once in the second 'now' and in static state. The difference as '1' contains transformation from Nothingness '0' to full existence '1' of the World which is a unit created by God. The duality in the first ‘now’ became the 'past' and memory and the duality in the second ‘now’ became the 'present' containing the past. 
When the observer is on his own he is perfect Truth (see The truth about the Truth; TalkTruth). He then observes full existence of the duality of his self and Nothingness as the perfect contradiction of his ‘self’. The difference between observer’s 'self' and Nothingness motivates him for observation in the next 'now'. In the second ‘now’ there are four elements, each of them 1/4 of the static '1' of internal plurality of 4. The continuous observation within the Trinity cannot be stopped so that internal plurality of static '1' grows as 2 to power 'n' of parts 1/n, where (0<n<oo). The medium of Nothingness is independent of the observer but it is the duality of existence non-existence for all ‘n’ because when Nothingness is being observed it exists for the observer but at the same time it non-exists because the observer exists. Therefore Nothingness is identical with the observer ‘1’ and with itself as ‘0’. The transformation remains invariable but the velocity of change is different for each ‘n’ Direction of change is reversed when n=g, where ‘g’ is the plurality equal to ‘n’ at some point ‘n’ at which there is limit of observation for the imperfect observer who is a part of the Perfect observer limited to the plurality of 'g' and who uses 1/g for the unit of truth of description. (See limited infinity 11/06/2010 in Talkinfinity)..KK (81.151.89.114 (talk) 23:30, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: If this is your personal speculation, it doesn't belong on the article... AnonMoos (talk) 07:35, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mathematical Trinity (0<1) 

message: Jehovah is no part of a triune god. In Exodus chapter 7 through 12 we have a record of ten plagues on Egypt. The number ten in the Bible represents a complete number and in this particular case it stood for all of Egypt’s gods. At Exodus 12:12 it states in the original Hebrew, “For I will pass through the land of Egypt on this night and strike every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from man to beast; and I will execute judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am Jehovah.” The tenth plague was the execution of the first born of all Egypt. In doing this Jehovah made his name famous to other nations who would certainly hear of Egypt's calamities. After their deliverance from Egypt Jehovah gave the Israelites ten basic commands so that they would not make the same mistakes as the Egyptians. The mistake they had made was having too many gods; one of which was the triune god comprised of the god Osiris, the goddess Isis and their son Horus. Regarding this Exodus 20:2, 3 states in the original Hebrew, “I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You must not have any other gods besides me.” This would certainly rule out triune gods would it not? This is about polytheism; having more than one god.
Centuries later Jehovah God again emphasized he is not a triune god. Isaiah 42:8 in the original Hebrew plainly states, “I am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one else, Nor my praise to graven images.” Here Jehovah is making the point as crystal clear as possible. He is not, nor has he ever been, a triune god; he is a singular being, he is One god. At Isaiah 43:10,11 in the original Hebrew we read, “You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah, “Yes, my servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and have faith in me And understand that I am the same One. Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none. I — I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
These few scriptures - and there are hundreds more - show the trinity doctrine to be a false teaching and a lie when it comes to biblical authenticity. Jehovah lovingly used words like “face”, “ears”, “eyes”, (1 Peter 3:12) “fingers” (Psalms 8:3) and “hands” (Psalms 19:1) to describe his actions in ways that are humanly comprehensible. However as a spirit being Jehovah does not actually have a face, ears, eyes, fingers and hands. The point? If Jehovah God made his intention and actions clear using human attributes so that we can understand he would have also done the same in describing himself as “three gods in one”. In other words Jehovah would have made the concept of the trinity explicitly clear. BUT NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE IS THE CONCEPT FOUND. Not within the Old Testament and certainly not in the New Testament.
What’s the point of this really long post? To show from the Bible that the Trinity doctrine is not only a biblical lie but it should not have any attachment to the Bible itself. The doctrine should be treated in the same fiction as the Book of Mormon’s Jaredite and Nephites. The historical authenticity on Book of Mormon Wikipedia article does a wonderful job of dissecting the doctrine and exposing it for the lie that it is. The Trinity doctrine needs the same treatment. It should not be passed off or justified as biblical fact. Gorba (talk) 21:59, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether Jehovah is part of a triune god or not is all based on how the scriptures are interpreted. Those who believe in the Trinity as defined can quote scripture to support their view point just as easily as someone can to defend the opposite. It is a matter of viewpoint and belief. In the same manner, the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon is based on viewpoint and belief. Whether or not the Trinity is true, or whether or not the Book of Mormon is true is irrelevant to Wikipedia. What is relevant is that there are people who believe in both, and as such deserve to have their belief included in Wikipedia's pages. If you want to add something like this into the article then you are going to need some credible sources to back it up. I believe the section on Nontrinitarianism does so sufficiently, however you are welcome to add additional credible research into the article. Providing your own interpretation on the matter without reference is considered WP:OR and is not suitable for article content. Dromidaon (talk) 16:51, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

text: Gorba -- If you want to talk about things found nowhere in the Bible, then the form "Jehovah"[sic] is based on a blatantly mistaken misunderstanding of Hebrew, and is "not within the Old Testament and certainly not in the New Testament"...  In any case, Wikipedia's role, as Dromidaon has alluded to, is not to either prove or disprove Mormonism or the Trinity, but rather to report what various reliable sources have said about such topics. AnonMoos (talk) 00:34, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hello. Thank you very much for clarifying. I respect both of your comments. I have an observation. Since the bible is used to authenticate the trinity doctrine then should this same principle apply to all religious Wikipedia articles where any holy book is the source? For example the Sacraments or sacred mysteries section on the Catholic article uses many scriptures to authenticate beliefs and doctrines. Why is the bible's use not allowed on the Jehovah's Witness article to authenticate their beliefs and doctrines? Any time I've tried to add scriptures to provide a biblical authenticity the Editors have quickly removed it. This seems like a double standard to me. If the practice is okay on one article it should be okay on all. Gorba (talk) 04:45, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't speak for those editing the other articles, but 1) The Bible is a "primary source", and Wikipedia rules discourage excessive reliance on primary sources. 2) Just about all Christian and quasi-Christian groups appeal to the Bible to support their doctrines. 3) The New World Translation has some controversial features (the beginning of the Gospel of John extremely controversial, a number of other passages at least somewhat controversial). AnonMoos (talk) 07:21, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: In this situation, and in most others where it is doctrine that is being presented, a secondary, reliable source should be used. Interpretation is the main issue and simply stating a verse to support a doctrinal position is not acceptable. There are a plethora of references from excellent sources that support why Trinitarians believe the doctrine is Biblical; use them. Primary sources should only be used when there is no disagreement regarding its interpretation. --StormRider 11:13, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  The reason that you are seeing scripture references in the Sacraments or sacred mysteries section on the Catholic article is because they are directly quoting scripture. It's not that they are being used as references in this case. You could do something like "[religious group] does not believe that Jehovah was part of the trinity because [scripture verse] says '[quote]'". This doesn't state that it is fact, but rather that a specific religious group counts it as fact. You would still need a reference to someone that has stated that somewhere, but something along those lines is perfectly acceptable (this would be your secondary source). FOr example: most people, even if they don't believe that the Book of Mormon can be backed by history, can at least agree that Mormons believe that. Using a scripture verse to explain why someone believes something is actually beneficial to an article as it creates a better understanding of why the belief is there. However, if you change the sentence just a little bit it becomes something that is going to get reverted. Phrasing it as "Jehovah was not part of a trinity because [scripture verse] says '[quote]'" is stating this as a universal fact, and not everyone believes that to be a universal fact. Dromidaon (talk) 16:05, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Authenticity of the Trinity Doctrine 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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