Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-04-12 Colorado Avalanche

message: Alright. First of all, I'd like to shorten your names a bit, realizing that I'm going to be typing them a lot in the near future. I'm thinking Knt and FFJ- if you'd prefer I call you something else, please let me know, here or on my talk page. You guys, if Moralis is a lot to type over and over, can call me Mora.
That said, I like to open this sort of a discussion by asking you each a few questions. This helps me get a better idea of the dispute, especially when my subject knowledge is limited. It also helps you get a clearer idea of each others' positions, if you haven't already got one. Finally, it allows me to put the dispute in the context of Wikipedia policy.
If some of these questions seem redundant, I apologize- I'm just trying to get the whole picture. If some of these questions seem like loaded questions, again I apologize, and I assure you, they aren't (they're just not as well worded as maybe they should have been). I am impartial and this is an informal discussion. That means that unless Wikipedia policy is very clear about your dispute, I can't produce a judgement- and I'm not interested in doing so. My job is to help the two of you come to an agreement. You two seem to be getting along rather well, but just in case, I'd like to remind everybody that WP:NPA and WP:AGF still apply here, and traffic fines are double in work zones. That said, here are the questions, with more to follow when you've responded. --Moralis (talk) 17:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Before We Begin 

message: ===Questions for Knt===
# Why do you feel that the event in question is notable? What sets it apart from similar events that've occurred in the past?
::This event is notable in the history of the Colorado Avalanche, as well as the history of the Vancouver Cankucks AND the National Hockey League because it brought the NHL into a negative light in the public eyes and in the media.  The subject of fighting being banned has been brought up more often than usual ever since this incident occured.  Todd Bertuzzi also recieved a ban from the NHL for the rest of the season, and from most European hockey during the lockout that occured the next year.  This incident is pretty much the reason Bertuzzi was traded from Vancouver to Florida.  The resulting suspension was that 4th longest in NHL history.  Bertuzzi lost over a half a million dollars in salary, and $350,000.00 in endorsements.  There was an off-ice investigation and following legal suit against Bertuzzi in which Moore is trying to settle for $19.5 million dollars.  Kntrabssi 13:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would cite WP:WINP for this one.  There is no reason that we can't mention Steve Moore's injury under the 1995-Present header, and provide links to Moore's page and Bertuzzi's page.Kntrabssi 13:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can search around, but I should be able to provide a statement from the team, articles on ESPN.com, NHL.com and TSN.ca, if they are requested. Kntrabssi 13:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

text: African or European? Kntrabssi 13:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I would be all for a minor inclusion in the Colorado Avalanche article, and maybe even perhaps a new article about the Moore-Bertuzzi incident itself (Much like the Richard Riot article).  I feel that FFJ doesn't think it should be at all included in the Colorado Avalanche article.  It would be hard to show you the number of articles on ESPN concerning fighting before and after the incident, so I suppose that point can be dropped, however, this DID result in the 4th longest suspension in league history.  Kntrabssi 14:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening Questions 

message: # Why do you feel that the event in question is notable? What sets it apart from similar events that've occurred in the past?
::This event is notable in the history of the Colorado Avalanche, as well as the history of the Vancouver Cankucks AND the National Hockey League because it brought the NHL into a negative light in the public eyes and in the media.  The subject of fighting being banned has been brought up more often than usual ever since this incident occured.  Todd Bertuzzi also recieved a ban from the NHL for the rest of the season, and from most European hockey during the lockout that occured the next year.  This incident is pretty much the reason Bertuzzi was traded from Vancouver to Florida.  The resulting suspension was that 4th longest in NHL history.  Bertuzzi lost over a half a million dollars in salary, and $350,000.00 in endorsements.  There was an off-ice investigation and following legal suit against Bertuzzi in which Moore is trying to settle for $19.5 million dollars.  Kntrabssi 13:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would cite WP:WINP for this one.  There is no reason that we can't mention Steve Moore's injury under the 1995-Present header, and provide links to Moore's page and Bertuzzi's page.Kntrabssi 13:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can search around, but I should be able to provide a statement from the team, articles on ESPN.com, NHL.com and TSN.ca, if they are requested. Kntrabssi 13:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

text: African or European? Kntrabssi 13:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I would be all for a minor inclusion in the Colorado Avalanche article, and maybe even perhaps a new article about the Moore-Bertuzzi incident itself (Much like the Richard Riot article).  I feel that FFJ doesn't think it should be at all included in the Colorado Avalanche article.  It would be hard to show you the number of articles on ESPN concerning fighting before and after the incident, so I suppose that point can be dropped, however, this DID result in the 4th longest suspension in league history.  Kntrabssi 14:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Questions for Knt

message: I'm just throwing this out off the top of my head. I would propose putting something like this at the top of the "Rivalry With Detroit Red Wings" section:
:See also: Steve Moore, Todd Bertuzzi
Of course, it would be desirable to alter those articles so that a section could be linked to directly, or to link to an article on the dispute if one is created. Then, somewhere in that "Rivalry" section, you'd put something like:
:During a 2004 game, a violent altercation between Detroit Right Wing Todd Bertuzzi and Colorado Centre Steve Moore garnered a major media response. Bertuzzi was suspended indefinitely, missing 20 games. Moore's career ended as a result of his injuries.
That's just a basic suggestion based on what I'm seeing here. This way, the event isn't given much attention in the Avalanche article, but it is mentioned enough that an interested user would know about it and likely research it further via the players' articles. Incidentally, it may be appropriate to work the incident into its chronological position in Detroit Red Wings, if that interests you. Please let me know what you both think. --Moralis (talk) 15:54, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Moralis, at the time of the incident Bertuzzi was with the Vancouver Canucks.  He was ultimately traded to the Florida Panthers and about a month ago was moved to Detroit at the trade deadline.  The incident has nothing to do with the Red Wings rivalry.  I do like the proposed paragraph included under 1995-present, with the appropriate team changes, of course.  Kntrabssi 16:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Apologies. I don't know much about the subject (in fact I try to avoid mediating disputes where I do, thereby avoiding a lot of potential NPOV issues). Regardless, I think you understand what I'm proposing- mention it in passing in the team article, with "See also:" linked to the players. We'll see what FFJ says. --Moralis (talk) 16:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that is a fair compromise.  Fighting for Justice 19:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Compromise Proposal