Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Renaming survey

message: :The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was No consensus, if you don't mind the proposer closing the RM. Duja► 14:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

message: # Duja► 11:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: # Andrew Dalby 12:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Exceptions to support (i.e. don't move these)

message: #Strongly. The "Foo people" is widespread across Wikipedia and avoids any ambiguity with "Foo language". I don't see that changing to the plural is any better, and it simply does not work with most non-European ethnic groups. Take, for example, the Maka, Bamum, and Duala peoples of Cameroon. The plural of these ethnicities is the same as the singular. ("Makas", "Dualas", "Bamums", etc. are very rarely used). We should stick to the system that works best for the widest variety of ethnic groups around the world. That system is "Foo people". The same holds true for Chinese people, Japanese people, Navajo people, and any number of other groups. — BrianSmithson 12:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: *Slavic people IMO is bad term, and I am surprized it sits so long. The correct name would be Slavic peoples, just like Slavic languages
**Actually, the article is at Slavic peoples. There's a redirect from the singular form. Andrew Dalby 19:36, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Exceptions to oppose (i.e. move these)

message: Look people, I'm not gravely interested that this proposal succeeds and I certainly don't intend to begin a crusade about it; but I must say that I'm stunned at some comments, some of which apparently fail to understand the scope of the proposal, and some others fail to assume good faith. I feel obliged to address some of them, with due respect to the opposers' opinions and certainly without desire to personally attack anyone.
#Scope and policy. The guideline I explicitly quoted is WP:NC(CN). This move does not imply that all ethnic groups should be at "Fooians" and none should be at "Foo people". I believe that only the listed articles do not currently satisfy WP:NC(CN), and the articles for non-European groups should be taken case-by-case. One proof of that is that all the articles listed use "Fooians" in the very first line and throughout the text. "White people" are out of scope. "Basothos" are out of scope. This debate is meant to be about listed articles, and not about establishing a precedent for thoughtless renaming of all 
#"Stylistic reasons". Aren't all RM's out of "stylistic reasons" one way or another? Again, I specifically quoted WP:NC(CN), and, as I said, the articles use "Fooians" throughout. 
#Consistency, reader's expectations. The articles are currently not named consistently with other articles of ethnic groups, and not consistently with WP:NC(CN). Thus, the format "XXX people":"XXX language" is not applicable in general, and not enforceable at all (see Talk:Greeks#Requested move).
#"Disruption". I'm stunned by such lack of good faith. The RM was properly advertised, and my sole attempt was to establish consensus. I don't see any other form how the consensus could be reached except by discussion. The alternate proposal of renaming one at a time is IMO simply not practical, spreads the discussion in multiple places, and still does not achieve consistency. I tried to set up the survey format whereby individual pages may be exempted from the move, in case that WP:NC(CN) can be proven not to hold; e.g. a valid point was raised that "Spaniards" is not quite appropriate and I tend to agree. Maybe the path I choose is not perfect, but I still don't see a better one, and I certainly tried to act in good faith.
#Distinction between "citizens of" and "ethnic group". Sorry, I fail to see how the current naming scheme achieves that; like I said, as a non-native speaker, I maybe fail to feel that particular language nuance, but I somehow don't think it actually exists, i.e. that argument is stretched. I'm open to persuasion on that though.
In summary, I'm sad that the survey now heads into "pile on oppose" direction where all sorts of arguments are being raised, but I'm afraid too many of those are being misdirected. The question I tried to raise is simple: how comes that "Italian people" is more common and more precise English expression than "Italians". See "what links here" for any of those for yourself, and pay attention how the text of the link looks like: even where "Italian people" is linked, it's almost always Italians or Italian. Duja► 08:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposer's comments