Talk:Linux/Archive 6

message: This pointless nitpicking isn't productive. "Open Source" has basically lost its strict original definition now, which is why it's being incorporated into the phrase "open source development". I'm reverting the recent change. Chris Cunningham 12:32, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Stupid, stupid, stupid, childish, childish, childish, can you all please give up this revert war, nobody really cares if the paragraph starts with "open source" or with "free software" or which one is capitalized.AdrianTM 13:58, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just my two cents:  Strictly speaking, Linux is the kernel.  The development process behind it is, in practice, Open Source.  It is also free, but that's besides the point.  Rather than arguing about which should be listed first, maybe an entire rewording is in order.  Like this:  "The Linux operating system, also known as GNU/Linux, is an alternative operating system that both influences and is influenced by the open source movement.  Unlike proprietary operating systems such as Windows or Mac OS, its underlying source code, with few exceptions is available to the public for anyone to freely use, modify and redistribute.  The operating system is available in a number of configurations known as distributions, each maintained by a separate party.  It is most often available free to anyone though some distributions offer service contracts at a nominal fee."  -- or something along those lines.  I just think the intro in general is weak.  Feel free to disagree.  But to waste time debating which should be first (Open source vs. Free) is a waste of time.  Switching the order does not enhance the article in any way.  --Coplan 16:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro sentence 

message: Although my knowledge of linux is not that good, i know this article is very biased. Especially critisism on usability can be added. It is true linux can be userfriendly for the basic users (when configured properly and applications are ready to use), but when a user wants to do a little setting tweaking in the system (modify some basic things, problem solving, etc) a reasonable windows user is totally lost. 
:You need to learn the tools, Linux is not Windows. Linux is easier to install and operate than Windows, I know because I've used Widows since Windows 3.1 (including professionally) and have been using Linux for only 2 years, I am better and more at home in Linux although I've been using it for shorter period. AdrianTM 21:34, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: if you have problems with Windows connection you are lost too, especially wireless, since what is going is hidden from user you have hard time to figure what is wrong, however you should realize that Wikipedia is not for pushing your point of views (read about it at Wikipedia:NPOV AdrianTM 21:34, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I completely agree, not to mention that most of the "usability problems" usually reported have to do with installation, or we all know that Windows comes preinstalled on most of the systems, if you really want to compare Linux fairly: buy a preinstalled Linux system and see how it works -- you'll not complain then about configuring drivers. As about the common complain "it's hard to install programs" Linux is also easier than Windows: you have things like 1-click install or one command upgrade that upgrades all packages (try that in Windows). The only problem appears when you try to install Windows programs in Linux, but that's a little bit like using gas in a Diesel car... (not that's impossible, WINE and Cedega are getting pretty good in running Windows programs, Google for example released Picasa for Linux that runs in WINE) -- AdrianTM 06:28, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Before easy-to-use front-ends and automated tools, this high configurability meant there were many options that could tweak every little thing. In some cases this meant that you had to specify every little setting, and over-all it meant it was more complex. So, yes, it's related, but the essential reason for technologically oriented users choosing Linux was the configurability. There were less difficulty barriers because the users were technologically adept, but that does not meant they would have chosen it simply because it was only a more difficult version with the same configurability as Windows. - Centrx 20:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Another reason is that only technically oriented are inclined to install other Operating Systems, that doesn't say anything about how easy or hard is to use or install Linux. Nowadays Linux is easier to install than Windows, especially installable LiveCDs: Mepis, Ubuntu (Dapper), PCLinuxOS, etc install in 10-20 minutes and give you a full operating system (including Office software, image editing software, mutiprotocol IM clients, usable browser(s)) AdrianTM 20:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biased 

message: There is no value in providing both the initialism and the expansion when it's only referenced once. Everyone calls it GCC, so just call it GCC. It looks silly to have to provide the expansion when it's rarely used. Chris Cunningham 10:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While GCC is the much more commonly used name, GNU Compiler Collection is the full name and is still used. See Google search — "GNU Compiler Collection" -GCC — with 60,000 results for usage of "GNU Compiler Collection" without usage of "GCC". Note that in some cases "gcc" is used specifically to refer to running the command-line program. -- Centrx 18:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All very true, but all very irrelevant to this article and best left for the GCC article itself (which is conveniently linked for anyone who cares). Chris Cunningham 18:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is known by both names, why not just say both? --Bsmntbombdood 22:40, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Style. This is a big and complicated article. It does not need its word count artificially inflated by expanding all the initialisms. The article loses no value by not expanding GCC. Chris Cunningham 08:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: If that's your best argument, I don't feel compelled to reverse my stance (as I did above). I don't believe that paragraph warrants much expansion comparing to, say, the usage section (which along with the desktop section is the only part of this article which still needs serious attention). I will continue to fight for a professional level of English in this article in spite of Wikipedia's tendency for articles to continually attract parentheses and irrelevant trivia best left to sub-articles. Chris Cunningham 00:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do you think three-letter abbreviations constitutes a "professional level of English"? If your best argument is style, when others consider it in fact better style the other way, and when it is better to include more information when it is true and NPOV, then the page is going to have both. Your other arguments have been that it is "silly" and that it "artifically inflates word count" (It is one word, and no one is advocating "expanding all the initialisms" (emphasis added)) Why do you think five characters "(GCC)" constitutes so serious a problem when it adds true and NPOV information? -- Centrx 01:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: For anyone who isn't convinced, Google returns _five million_ results for "International Business Machines". Number of times this expansion is warranted on Wikipedia: one. Chris Cunningham 00:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are 182 instances of "International Business Machines" on the English Wikipedia. One in the first 10 is a quote from a newspaper (Times) article where the full name is used. Why shouldn't the full name be used? -- Centrx 01:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Maybe we should fully expand "GNU C Compiler" to "GNU is Not Unix C Compiler" and then that to "GNU is NOT Unix in Not Unix C Compiler". I just don't know were should we stop.... just like some people over here. -- AdrianTM 01:44, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a purposefully farcical expansion, and is never used except when referring to the acronym as acronym whereas "GNU Compiler Collection" is straightforwardly descriptive and is used to refer to it. -- Centrx 01:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Point is, some things are refered to by their acromyms, GCC is like that, if someone wants to read more about GCC there's an entire entry just for that. -- AdrianTM 01:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Three letters in parentheses is not much to read—or skip over. In order to have a professional level of English, the compiler collection should be refered to in its first instance by its full name. -- Centrx 02:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, this is incorrect. The rule is that abbreviations must be expanded in the initial usage when they are being used for the sake of brevity - in GCC's case, the initialism is the most common usage. I don't see you arguing that International Business Machines must be expanded in the article's introduction. Chris Cunningham 16:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think maybe IBM should be expanded too, though reasons against this are that space is at a greater premium in the introduction, that these companies are in a tangential list of examples and are not the subjects of the sentence, and that IBM has been the name for more than fifty years. -- Centrx 04:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It currently reads, "GCC is the most commonly-used compiler family on Linux". it is not actually possible to fail to understand that this sentence refers to some compiler family by the name of GCC. Chris Cunningham 07:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GCC 

message: OK, I reworked the last few sections into one below based on an idea of making it more accessable to non-Linux users and making some sort of "usage"-like section.  Comments/tweaks/criticisms welcome. RN 23:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume you've had a good look at Linux distribution. I think your section wants  or similar at the top, and a less vague heading would be "deployment" rather than "usage". - Samsara (talk • contribs) 14:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFC: Part of the second part 

message: There are several ways Linux is installed on computers. The most common method of installing Linux is by booting from a CD that contains the installation program and installable software and then running the said installation software. It can also be installed via a thin client installation running directly from a LiveCD. These CDs can be burned from a downloaded ISO images, purchased alone, or obtained as part of a box set that may also include manuals and additional commercial software. Linux also comes preinstalled on servers and personal computers from vendors including Hewlett-Packard and Dell, although generally only for their business desktop line. On embedded devices Linux is typically held in the device's firmware and may or may not be consumer-accessible.
Linux provides several avenues for software development. While there are several compilers available of both commercial and free persuasions, GCC is by far the most commonly used compiler family on Linux with frontends for C, C++ and other programming languages. While GCC is not an integrated development environment (IDE), numerous IDEs exist such as KDevelop, Anjuta, NetBeans or Eclipse; the traditional editors Emacs and Vim also remain popular. Interpreters for Perl, Python and others are commonly installed in Linux Distributions as well.  
Technical support for Linux is provided, often without cost, by commercial suppliers and by other Linux users, usually in online forums, newsgroups and mailing lists. Linux User Groups have traditionally been organised to provide local support for Linux. However, the business model of commercial suppliers is generally dependent on charging for support, especially for business users. Some companies offer a special business version of their distribution which adds proprietary support packages and tools to administer higher numbers of installations or do administrative tasks more easily.
::I assume you've had a good look at Linux distribution. I think your section wants  or similar at the top, and a less vague heading would be "deployment" rather than "usage". - Samsara (talk • contribs) 14:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deployment 

message: In connection with a separate "Appropriate technology wiki," I've made an info page/how-to guide for those wanting a Low cost computer (including how to make use of old computers). Choosing an appropriate distribution of Linux is one of the issues. I thought that editors of this page might have the knowledge to help on this. Thanks --Singkong2005 (t - c - WPID) 16:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Low cost computer 

message: The adoption figures seem to be from 2002. Are these the most recent available? The article also says 2.8pc of pc's in 2002 are were shipped with linux, which is not the same as the actual adoption.--Beau 08:06, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outdated adoption rates