Talk:Temple menorah

message: I was wondering if anyone had any information on the Menorah's use in Christian traditions? In Iceland, where I come 
from, you can see electric versions of these in as much as half the windows of apartment blocks and such over Christmas. My grandparents and older family members have these electric versions all over the place during Christmas. Since most of our holiday traditions seem to be Germanic with some Nordic twists, am I right to assume this came from Denmark? Is the symbol still widely used there? What other Christian countries display them, and why?
Thanks in advance.
::The little electric versions are becoming popular in Britain too.  I think it's a little bit of a 'crossover', with Christians allowing a little 'Jewishness' (or maybe an element of 'old mysticism') back into what has become a very commercialised Christmas.  (Ironic I know, but after all I have a Jewish friend who sends Christmas cards to everybody!)  Christians are aware that there's some kind of Jewish festival going on during the run-up to our Christmas, and it appears to be a joyful one, not a solemn one.  Now I've had a look around the pages for 'Menorah' and 'Hanukiah', but I'll instead tell you what I knew before I went digging.
::In a nutshell: "There's a happy Jewish festival during the run-up to Christmas.  It's called the 'Festival of Lights'.  It's something to do with a miracle at the temple where the oil lasted for eight days when it shouldn't have.  You're supposed to put the menorah to shine outside".
::I'll have a little Menorah on my windowsill this Christmas. I know it means a different thing to me than it does to Jewish people, but I just hope that Jews do not mis-interpret this as 'stealing' the menorah into our religion (don't forget that Moses meets the burning bush in our religion too :-), and take offence where none is intended. 160.84.253.241 15:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Christian menorah comes from the shared Old Testament but also from the Book of Revelation (Rev. 1:12-20) as an interpretation of the seven lampstands.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ephemerance (talk • contribs) 20:57, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christmas Menorot? 

message: No offense, but I found the article to be full of contradictory and redundant passages, so I did a considerable amount of editing and re-writing. Benami 02:11, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have heard that myth before, I would be great if you could find a source.  Personally I have trouble believe that. The very original menorah (the one by tradition was made by Moses) was probably lost in 586 BC during the destruction of the first temple. Even it survived and was returned by Cyrus, it still would have been lost during Antiochus IV Epiphanes plundering of the temple in 167 BC.  Still even if it (or at least the one on the arch of titus) made it to the Vatican it is unlikely to  still be there after the Vatican's turbulent history.  Jon513 15:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: If it ever was in Constantinople, I don't think the Iconoclasts would have destroyed it.  The Iconoclasts limited their destruction to depictions--both in sculpture and painting--of patriarchs, prophets, and saints, in addition to God, Jesus etc.  They based they're objections on the Commandment forbidding graven images.  As in Judaism, something like the Menorah would not have caused offense.  Nor would have crosses without corpus or other more abstract symbols and shapes. --Mikhelos 05:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-do 

message: Why do Scholars find it more appropriate to use BCE and CE rather than BC and AD in relation to the Jews?  BC means "Before Christ" and Christ was a Jew!!  I really am curious as to why they prefer the one over the other. Kitty2008 20:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:MOSDATE and please do not change era notation without consensus. ←Humus sapiens ну? 21:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: It's important (for puposes of this discussion) to understand that Christ was not Jesus of Nazareth's last name, but rather is a title derived from a Greek word literally meaning "the anointed one." This corresponds to the Hebrew "Messiah." In other words, "Jesus Christ" literally means "Jesus the Annointed One." Since Judaism fundamentally rejects the assertion that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, some scholars consider the implied use of the "Christ" title inappropriate to that context. Similarly, "AD" is short for "Anno Domini," latin for "in the year of our Lord." Judaism does not, of course, consider Jesus of Nazareth as "our lord," presenting much the same problem with that term. On a slightly more semantic note, while it is true the Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew, so are many other famous people.  From a purely Jewish perspective, it could be argued that there's no better rationale to mark time as before or after Jesus of Nazareth than, say, Sandy Koufax. --Clubjuggle 21:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: It's a shame that this issue can sometimes become divisive, when it should actually unite us.  Please do not take our counting years from the birth of Jesus as a sign of disrespect.  Rather, we count the years from the date when one of your finest began his mission to rescue us gentiles from Paganism.  Of course, the Jews had already been 'on side' for thousands of years, so you didn't need a messiah.  But we did. Go figure...79.75.147.173 18:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: BC/BCE AD/CE

message: most of the paragraph needs to be scrapped..  It is mostly speculation.  Nero had to pay his war debts.  The menorah was probably melted down to pay the financiers of the jewish war.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.123.106.100 (talk) 02:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fate of the menorah 

message: I have read that the Menorah is a symbol of Jewish racism, and that celebrating Chanukah is a commemoration of a Jewish massacre of Gentiles and is a Jewish nationalist holiday. Not knowing much about thi please can someone explain? Robert C Prenic (talk) 07:31, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do not believe everything you read. In fact, if you read books and articles that spout this nonsense, you should believe NOTHING of what you read.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kepipesiom (talk • contribs) 21:05, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Symbol of hate?

message: I removed this picture, while notable, it is of very poor quality.  But I'm leaving it here for someone to hopefully replace with a better version.  Epson291 (talk) 13:15, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is a fairly good one on the Hebrew Wikipeida Epson291 (talk) 15:34, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a link to the English-language version of the Temple Institute's Menorah  (on the Temple Institute's own web site) and it's also a very nice picture. There may be licensing issues, but perhaps the Hebrew Wikipedia has already arranged for the necessary permission. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 16:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Until 2007, this Menorah was displayed in the Cardo. Now  it's on a square in front of the Kotel. This is the only picture of it in the Cardo on Wikimedia, but there is another one much more better on hebrew Wikipedia (:he:File:Menorat HaZahav.jpg). the photo is taken through a window, and the light  of the camera reflect on it. Djampa (talk) 12:47, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture

message: Does anyone here know the dimensions of this new menorah?  That might be good to add to the article.  Frotz (talk) 10:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: there are no dimensions written in the Torah.  What do you mean by new menorah?  Jon513 (talk) 12:34, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: He is probably referring to the Menorah built by The Temple Institute, which until recently was on display next to the Cardo of the Old City. It is now on display near the steps leading down to the Kotel. I think that the Machon Hamikdash Menorah does deserve mention in the article. Dimensions (even from Rabinic sources) is also apropriate. I'll look them up. Max613 (talk) 17:03, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes.  I meant the one made by the Temple Institute.  While you're looking things up, would you please find out how the Temple Institute arrived at those dimensions?  Frotz (talk) 20:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dimensions? 

message: The current article doesn't really try and describe it other than to refer to fairly sketchy information from the Arch of Titus and quoting the Bible extensively. I'd appreciate comments on the followng suggestion, even if it seems speculative : 
The Candlestick was made from one talent of gold. This traditionally weigns about 50 kilograms; gold being very dense, this is about 2.5 litres of volume. Since it was to be beaten out of one piece, it therefore seems clear that the candlestick was hollow in order to confer enough strength to the structure. In this way the candlestick ends up somewhat less than a metre high and broad, which is about the same proportions depicted on the arch of Titus. If the candlestick were solid, the branches would have to be quite thin and would have been relatively easily made but also relatively easily damaged. In this way the candelstick turns out somewhat smaller; about 80 cm high and broad, in keeping with the general proportions.
This would have made the candlestick easy to light and tend (oil lamps being placed on the tops of the branches), being a little over waist high. The only light in the Holy Place of the Tabernacle came from the candlestick.
Contrary to the depiction on the arch of Titus, however, the detailing on the candlestick was far more elaborate. The detailing was all based on features of the almond tree. Under each point where the three pairs of arms left the centre shaft, there was a knop (alternatively: bud); at intervals along the branches and the shaft there were further buds and flowers (cups are in the shape of flowers and can therefore be taken to be identical). Each branch had three buds and flowers, but the centre shaft had four. Each branch and the centre shaft ended in holders for the oil lamps. These were separate from the rest of the candlestick, though made from the same block of gold (Exodus 37:23). There is probably a practical element here, as the tabernacle was transportable at any moment: and clearing out the candlestick cups of oil, which being holy would have involved a ritual carried out by priests, would have been a difficult task if the oil lamps were not removable.
The candlestick was in the charge of the Kohathites, who carried and cared for the articles of the tabernacle.
The Temple was a far grander and more elaborate structure and as such needed more light. The role of the candlestick is not mentioned as fully as in the Tabernacle, and there are supplementary candlesticks, ten in number, mentioned as being provided by Solomon.
In the future Temple, as recorded in Revelations, there will be no candlestick, as the permanent presence of God will provide all the light necessary.
19/6/09
Jeremynicholas (talk) 19:19, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shape and form 

message: The very first sentence of this article is mistaken. A Menorah is not a candelabra because it does not use any candles. So is there another name for it, or is it just a Menorah?
205.209.78.147 (talk) 21:09, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  It's not a candelabra or candlesticks 

message: It says on the page "The earliest preserved representation of the menorah of the Temple is depicted in a frieze on the Arch of Titus, commemorating his triumphal parade in Rome following the destruction of Jerusalem in the year 70".
This is not true.  Just look at the Menorah coin of Antigonus (40-37 BCE).
216.99.55.225 (talk) 18:45, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The earliest preserved representation? 

message: Any comments on the claim that the form of the Menorah is intended to be reminiscent of a stylised tree?  (Note the detailing from the almond tree, as cited by the commenter above, specified from .)
Some have suggested this might even perhaps be a carry-over from the tree symbol of Asherah, historically worshipped (or at least symbolically present) alongside El, and then at times perhaps alongside Yahweh. (eg. Joan E. Taylor The Asherah, the Menorah and the Sacred Tree, Journal for the Study of the Old Testament 20(66) 29-54 (June 1995); Dijkstra 2001 p.120, citing Herbert Niehr in this book, 1999).  Here's also a 1996 lecture by Ashphodel P. Long.
Francesca Stavrakopoulou thought this worth a passing mention in her BBC series The Bible's Buried Secrets last night. 
Is it worth a comment in our article?  Jheald (talk) 15:21, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stylised tree ? 

message: Hanukkah(8 letters) or Chanukah(8) is an eight-day(8) festival(8) like Passover(8). This is a prime example of 'Step 1' of Simple(6,74) English(7,74) Gematria(8,74) where we count the number of letters in a word/name/phrase and give symbolic meaning to it, i.e. 'menorah' has 7 letters and the Temple Menorah has 7 lamps. Anybody got a reference for that? I'll look around. - Ben Hirt  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.196.11.183 (talk) 21:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Menorah' has 7 letters symbolic of its 7 lamps 

message: This article had conflicting references to "seven lamps", "seven branches", and "six branches". The Temple menorah has 7 lamps and 6 branches. The middle lamp - the 4th of 7 from the left or right - is on the trunk of the lampstand, it is not on a branch. This symbolism of 7 lamps, but only 6 branches is also found in the Magen David which is a six-pointed star that forms 7 polygons (6 triangles and one large hexagram). - Ben Hirt  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.196.11.183 (talk) 21:11, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Temple Menorah has 7 lamps and 6 branches 

message: Article needs more discussion of the use of seven-branched menorahs (referencing the Temple) in Christian Churches and art.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.154.22.185 (talk) 08:41, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Christian use

message: Some Evangelical Lutheran churches include a menorah -- a special candelabra designed to hold seven candles -- among their altar vessels. The menorah has its roots in Hanukkah, the Jewish Festival of Lights. Lutherans use the menorah to remind them of their faith's roots in the Old Testament. Lutherans believe the lit candles of the menorah symbolize the soul's desire to reach up to God and the flames which appeared over Jesus' disciples' heads on the Day of Pentecost, as recorded in Acts 2.
 77.125.1.17 (talk) 23:36, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some Evangelical Lutheran churches include a menorah  

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hanukkah(8 letters)/Chanukah(8) - an eight-day(8) festival(8) like Passover(8). The Hanukkiah(9)/Chanukiah(9) has 8 lights + the shamash the 'attendent candle'. The temple menorah(7) is 7 lamps representing the sacred '7 Luminaires' - the '7 Classical Planets' with the Sun in the middle like the word 'menorah'. Miraculously, the Hanukkiah's 8 lamps represent the solar system's 8 planets that receive light from the Shamash - the Mesopotamian Sun god. 73.85.203.37 (talk) 16:21, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Hanukkiah(9)/Chanukiah(9) has 8 lights + the shamash the 'attendent candle' 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Move Menorah (Temple) to Temple menorah and Menorah (Hanukkah) to Hanukkah menorah. Consensus to keep dab page as it is. (non-admin closure)  Vpab15 (talk) 16:12, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment I support Rreagan007's proposal to move Menorah (Temple) to Temple menorah and Menorah (Hanukkah) to Hanukkah menorah per WP:NATURALDISAMBIG.Eccekevin (talk) 19:41, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 17 April 2021 

message: This is not covered by the article. See the stone menorah from Hammat Tiberias (Synagogue A) and the bronze menorah from En-Gedi (Hachlili, p.238), and the various depictions on mosaics from ancient synagogues (Synagogue B at Hammat Tiberias, Bet Alfa, Bet She'an, Na'aran, etc.).
"...from the end of the second century onwards, the menorah is used in the synagogue ritual as a reminder of its function in the Temple. This is also attested to by the depiction of the menorah on mosaic floors where it represents the synagogue menorah. There is some proof that a single menorah may have served in some synagogues before the fourth century. This is attested to by the two aediculae, one of which possibly housed a menorah, in both the synagogues of Capernaum and Nabratein. It is possible that from the fourth century on, two menoroth functioned simultaneously in the synagogue ritual, as attested to by the Hammath Tiberias synagogue mosaic. / Thus, sometime between the third and fourth centuries, a change in the synagogue ritual must have occurred which required the use of two usually unidentical menoroth which flanked the Ark, as depicted in the Hammath Tiberias, Susiya and Beth 'Alpha synagogue mosaic floors. ... The expansion of Christianity, and its inherent challenge to the established Jewish religion, may have been the cause of the increasing ceremonial content in synagogue ritual and art. / ... the actual menorah (such as the Hammath Tiberias stone menorah takes on a symbolic function in the synagogue, as can be seen by the place of the menorah in synagogal art, on mosaic floors for instance, where it is shown flanking the Ark. In these cases the menorah seems to represent an important feature of the synagogue. During the third to sixth centuries the menorah plays a dual function in Jewish art; first and more commonly, as a symbol of the Jewish people, and second, as an actual illustration of the place and function of the menorah in the Jewish synagogue."
So at least in the 2nd-6th century the menorah was a synagogue implement, not a Temple implement. The WP article doesn't address that. Maybe the custom went on for longer, after the 6th c. To spare you from looking it up in the wrong place: the "Modern Jewish use" section doesn't even touch on this, there's not a word there about the use of menorahs in modern synagogues. Lots of articles I came across are linking "menorah" to "Temple menorah" for no good reason, just because there's no alternative available. Arminden (talk) 14:49, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lost meaning: menorah in the ancient synagogue (real implement or depictions) 

message: At the top of the article it says:
> The menorah was a symbol of both Judaism and Christianity since antiquity; in modern times it is considered solely a symbol of Judaism 
Then later in the article it says:
>In the Eastern Orthodox Church the use of the menorah has been preserved, always standing on or behind the altar in the sanctuary.
It sounds like it's not solely a symbol of Judaism if the Orthodox Chruch still uses it? Liviu- (talk) 14:48, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern symbolism 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Is that an accurate or proper term for the Torah?  Valgrus Thunderaxe (talk) 07:33, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Discussion is taking place at Talk:Hebrew Bible. tgeorgescu (talk)  14:53, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Hebrew Bible"