Talk:Icebreaker (non-fiction book)

message: The article describes some archive material as "ex-Soviet". Is this the same as "Soviet"? If so I'll remove the "ex-". cagliost (talk) 07:35, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Ex-Soviet

message: I reviewed briefly "Absolut war" very interesting book. He confirms that there were several plans of Soviets to attack Germans, but he belives they would have been utter failure. Can we refresh an article a bit using the new book? Cautious 09:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Absolut war

message: The unattributed critique removed. mikka (t) 21:16, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed "Critique" section 

message: :Any serious study of the operational performance of the German Wehrmacht and the Red Army and Air Force in the initial period of Operation Barbarossa reveals that the Soviet forces were obviously unprepared for basic military operations and were in a peacetime state.
But Suvorov simply says that it is generally true with one small correction: Soviets  were utterly, totally, absolutely unprepared for defensive military operations (According to Suvorov, Stalin simply did not believe that Hitler will attack USSR because he could not win such war). Conclusion that unpreparedness for defense is the same as unpreparedness for war, says Suvorov, is flawed. Army was prepared for offensive military operations.
In the following paragraph Suvorov's critics argumentation contradicts not only Suvorov, it contradicts itself:
:Although Suvorov claims that an attack date of July 8, 1941 had been selected, this is contradicted by the overwhelming mass of evidence. There were no stockpiles of the fuel, ammunition, and other stores held in forward areas as would have been needed if an invasion was about to be mounted.
Yet Red Army stockpiles were decimated in first weeks of war, no one disputes this, right? How can stockpiles be destroyed if they were far away from the border? Bombers of the time had insufficient range to struck, say, Kiev or Moscow. Then how did they manage to destroy stockpiles?
 
:Major ground units were dispersed into small garrisons rather than being concentrated at railheads, as they would have been had they been preparing an invasion. Units were not co-located with their own transportation assets, leaving, for example, major artillery units immobile.
USSR is huge. Imagine that army was dispersed roughly according to population density. Then most of it must have had enough time (a few weeks at least) to organize itself before front lines would reach it. It did not happen. Somehow, significant portion of army was destroyed in the first month. How was this possible? _Where_ was the army? Think about it...
:Air Force aircraft were parked in neat, tightly-packed rows along their airfields rather than dispersed.
Again, this couldn't be relevant if planes are on, say, Moscow airfield. Or Kiev. But it was very relevant because they mostly weren't at Moscow. They were much, much, much closer to Western border. They had to be within ~100 km from border to be reachable for German attack planes. We know that they were reachable, and were destroyed. Then why so much of them were there?
:This is nonsense. Soviets did lose around 2000 planes in first week of the war, but this was lest than 20% of their total strength. Most of the Red Air Force's strength was, indeed, far away from the border. --Mikoyan21 10:03, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems quite possible, but that's not what I've read over the years. I've more commonly heard that the Red Air Force was really decimated very quickly. Do you have a source backing up the claim that "only" 20% of the air forces were lost in the first week? I don't doubt that this is possible, and I'm inclined to agree with the jist of your point. If you have any source for these numbers that could really contribute to the rebuttle part of this article. I would like to say though that having read Suvorov's book I believe Stalin certainlly planned an eventual war with Germany, just not in 1941. 130.71.241.182 08:44, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Critique 

message: I just removed all parts of this that weren't presented either as direct assertions of Suvorov or responses by another historian.  The article was reading, to my eyes, something like a debate on the accuracy of Suvorov's thesis; I feel that the shorter version serves better as a useful and encyclopedic source on Suvorov's book.  --RobthTalk 03:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Large removal 

message: Hans-Ulrich Rudel in his book Stuka Pilot mentions that on the opening days of Barbarossa, his job was to bomb Russian Airfields, which he noted were close to the frontier and full  of bombers and fighters. I wrote a book report on Stuka Pilot in 1972, and it was apparent from his testimony, that Stalin was making his own plans for an attack on Germany.Oldperson (talk) 19:03, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Read WP:RS and WP:OR. Wikipedia does not base article content on 'circumstantial confirmation'. And even if it did, I don't think that the writings of a self-serving unreconstruted Nazi would be seen as having any weight in comparison to the many academic historians who have since written on the subject matter. 86.143.227.55 (talk) 19:51, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Insightful response.Oldperson (talk) 20:14, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

text: That Hans Rudel is an unreconstructed NAZI is irrelevant to the information that he brings forward, the mere mention of this is a logical fallacy: ad hominem,  The use of ad hominem indicates fear and the inability to answer the argument. That Stalin had plans to invade Germany and from there to conquer Europe is not at all related to apologia or mitigation of Hitler.  There were two evil men,  controlling the vast resources of their respective countries, each with their own designs.
Hitler is not redeemed by Stalin's intentions, simultaneously I hold as suspect those that would defend Stalin. Oldperson (talk) 22:13, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Hitler is not redeemed by Stalin's intentions, but what is your suggestion for improving this page? My very best wishes (talk) 00:27, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Circumstantial confirmation

message: I do not see where the cited source tells that the "central argument of the book" was that Stalin planned to attack Nazi Germany in 1941. Actually, the central claim of the book is that Stalin planned to use Nazi Germany as a proxy (the "Icebreaker") against the West. This is an entirely different and more general claim. Also, it does not say "Hitler falsely claimed". It say what I quoted directly. One needs to be precise here. (clarified below) My very best wishes (talk) 15:27, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop deliberately misinterpreting the article by Uldricks. He did not state merely that Hitler's claims had been of little interest to historians until 1999 as you are pretending. His argument on page 628 is that it had always been so obvious that Hitler was launching a war of aggression under the pretence that he was preempting an attack (something which was Hitler's standard tactic) that this had attracted little debate. On pages 629-630 he gives multiple examples of historians who concluded that the attack was not a preemptive strike, and notes that none of the standard works on Soviet foreign policy provide any support for Suvorov's views. The article then goes on to note that "The icebreaker thesis has drawn intense criticism from much of the scholarly community" and explains the problems with it in detail. On page 634 it is stated that "It is clear that, contrary to Suvorov and his disciples, Hitler's motives in launching Operation Barbarossa were aggressive, not defensive". Finally, on on page 643 he states that "we know for certain that Hitler did not fear a Soviet attack and that Operation Barbarossa was in no way a preemptive strike. The German assault on the USSR was central to Hitler's conception of race war as the theme of modern history". You are not being precise. You are repeatedly pretending that this source is on the fence on this matter, when the opposite is the case. Nick-D (talk) 09:37, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Note also that Uldricks treats Hitler's and Stalin's motivations separately, on the grounds that it was possible that both of them intended to launch a war of aggression against the other (hence, even given the consensus that Hitler lied about his motivations, it may theoretically have been the case that Stalin was actually planning to attack him, with the Germans being unaware of this). He concludes though that Stalin was probably not intending to conduct such an attack though. Nick-D (talk) 10:13, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, sure, this source tells the "preemptive strike" claim by Hitler was false, and it has been considered false claim by all historians, until very recently when Suvorov and several others started claiming that it could be indeed a preemptive strike (next phrase on the page). I think that making a direct quotation from the source ("Until fairly recently, historians of World War II paid little attention to Hitler's claims"), as I did, is just another way to tell essentially the same. According to Suvorov, the preemptive strike was just a tactical decision by Hitler, and it does not justify his aggression, does not absolve him of any crimes, and does not make his war "defensive". However, Suvorov does consider both Stalin and Hitler as aggressors and responsible for starting the WWII for a number of reasons, one of which was the signing the secret protocol to the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.My very best wishes (talk) 15:27, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Suvorov's claims actually date to the mid-1980s, so are not recent. Nick-D (talk) 07:38, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

text: Well, I responded above and would rather leave this page to you guys, at least for now. As a rule of thumb, I do not edit pages where an admin starts accusing me of something I did not do. My very best wishes (talk) 17:57, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I am contributing as an editor, not an admin (as this is not an admin matter and I am obviously WP:INVOLVED regarding the article's content). Nick-D (talk) 07:38, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent edits

message: I abhor edit warring. There are no winners.So to preclude such I challenge the use of the word "falsely". The word is an emotional adjective. Please quote or justify the use of the word, is it a quote from the source?Oldperson (talk) 17:27, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It is thoroughly explained here. Are you not reading the rest of the Talk page?GPRamirez5 (talk) 17:43, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I read the link, again, it does not address the issue, that using the word "falsely" is editorializing. Something that WP is not supposed to do.Oldperson (talk) 17:53, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

text: I agree with  it is well established that Hitler's stated Casus belli was false, and the minority view is a minority enough in this case that the historical consensus should be treated as fact on WP. -Darouet (talk) 18:39, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, according to version by Nick-D, "Suvorov is one of only a small number of authors to have made such a claim" (consistent with this page), which I read as "minority view". This is also not about Hitler's Casus belli, but about the "preemptive strike" claim in the book by Suvorov (one of many claims in the book). But whatever. My very best wishes (talk) 18:57, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

text: I mentioned this before. In 1972, while in Officer Training School, I had to choose a book from their library and write a book report. I chose Stuka Pilot by Hans Rudel. I was struck by his observation that as he flew over Soviet Lines, he noticed the sheer numbers of bombers and fighters lined up as if ready to  be called into  action. That Rudel was an unreconstructed NAZI is irrelevant, actually an ad hominem, a logical fallacy  used to discredit his observation.  Mentioning this does not make  me or anyone else a Hitler or NAZI sympathizer either, if I had lived in that era I would have wound up Dachau at a minimum or worked and starved to death in one of their tunnels or projects.I am as vehemently anti-Hitler/NAZI as I am anti_Stalin/Communist. But it seems to me that some who are so involved in this debate are either Stalinists or so vehemently anti-NAZI that they are ready to perceive anything but the recognized "party line"as an apologia. To which I say, that truth is being subsumed by other considerations, and damn both sides.Oldperson (talk) 21:47, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The current wording reflects the source. Please provide a reliable source which states that a significant body of historians believe that Hitler's public justification of his invasion of the USSR was truthful. As per the source and other sources, my understanding is that there is a consensus that Barbarossa was a deliberate act of aggression on Hitler's part. My understanding is also that there is not a consensus on whether Stalin was planning to eventually attack Germany, but the great majority of experts in this field have concluded that no such attack was imminent in mid-1941. Nick-D (talk) 07:51, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Nick you are confused by your use of the word falsely. My objection to the word is not that Hitler was truthful. In fact I have no idea what Hitler said about the subject, nor do I  care.My objection is to editorializing, but using the word "falsely" which does not occur in the literature. WP is not about opinions or editorializing.Oldperson (talk) 16:01, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The source notes that this claim was part of Hitler's standard tactic of "blaming his victims for the "need" to attack them", and discusses what his actual motivations were. Hence, it supports a summation of this being a false claim. As I understand it, this is not an issue contested by historians. Nick-D (talk) 07:55, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

text: *Once again, yes, according to all historians including Suvorov, Barbarossa was an act of aggression by Hitler; yes, he blamed his victims, etc. However, according to Suvorov, Hitler committed this act of aggression specifically in June 1941 to preempt the strike by the Soviet forces. We do not know if the claim by Hitler that he wanted to preempt the strike was a lie as a matter of fact. This is the matter of the controversy, as currently described on the page, and it should be described this way.My very best wishes (talk) 16:43, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: My very best wishes, can you name a publication affiliated with an accredited university which supports this thesis?GPRamirez5 (talk) 18:04, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a number of historians who support this claim. You can ckeck here and also in the last paragraph here.My very best wishes (talk) 18:20, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

text: This is a complex story. To write something reasonable here, one needs to read this book by Suvorov, many dozen books and articles by his critics and supporters, other books that Suvorov published in response to his critics, etc. Looking at the snippet views of a single random source does not really help here. My very best wishes (talk) 19:10, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: What you're describing is WP:OR. At Wikipedia you have to cite to a specific secondary source.GPRamirez5 (talk) 00:22, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: If it was Original Research then it would be  words. It is not,I've cited WP's own voice below, which has many many RS. Please stop moving the goal posts, your invention of a requirement for a book to be peer reviewed from a University press would reduce WP to a collection of Stubs.Oldperson (talk) 00:49, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

text: In WP's own voice  Several politicians have also made claims similar to Suvorov's. On August 20, 2004, historian and former Prime Minister of Estonia Mart Laar published an article in The Wall Street Journal titled When Will Russia Say 'Sorry'?. In this article, he said: "The new evidence shows that by encouraging Hitler to start World War II, Stalin hoped to simultaneously ignite a world-wide revolution and conquer all of Europe". Another former statesman to share his views of a purported Soviet aggressive plan is former president of Finland Mauno Koivisto, who wrote: "It seems to be clear the Soviet Union was not ready for defense in the summer of 1941, but it was rather preparing for an assault.... The forces mobilized in the Soviet Union were not positioned for defensive, but for offensive aims." Koivisto concludes: "Hitler's invasion forces didn't outnumber [the Soviets, but were rather outnumbered themselves. The Soviets were unable to organize defenses. The troops were provided with maps that covered territories outside the Soviet Union."[69]] and  The Soviet Union made extensive preparations for a future war of aggression during the 1920s and 1930s. Suvorov provides an extensive analysis of Stalin's preparations for war. According to Suvorov, there were supposed to be three Five-Year Plan phases that would prepare the Soviet Union for war. The first one was to be focused on collectivisation, the second focused on industrialisation, and the third phase would emphasize the militarisation of the country. and  While Western researchers (two exceptions being Albert L. Weeks[2 and R. C. Raack[50][51][52]) criticised Suvorov's thesis,[53] he has gathered some support among Russian historians, starting in the 1990s. Support in Russia for Suvorov's claim that Stalin had been preparing a strike against Hitler in 1941 began to emerge as some archive materials were declassified. Authors supporting the Stalin 1941 assault thesis are Valeri Danilov,[54] V.A. Nevezhin,[55] Constantine Pleshakov, Mark Solonin[56] and Boris Sokolov.[57] Although the USSR attacked Finland, no documents have been found to date which would indicate 26 November 1939 as the assumed date for the beginning of provocations or 30 November as the date of the planned Soviet assault.[58]}
Apologies for the long post, it appears that the thesis has growing support among Russian historians, and who would know better than a Russian?Oldperson (talk) 19:14, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

text: That material refers to Stalin's plans and motivations (where, as I understand it, the view of the great majority of historians is that he was seeking to avoid war in 1941, though may have been planning an attack at a much later date). The use of "false" here is in reference to Hitler's lies about his motivation for invading the USSR. Nick-D (talk) 07:31, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Basis for using  "falsely" 

message: According to the version by Paul, "Therefore, according to Suvorov, the 1941 German invasion of the USSR was just an act of self-defense<ref name="Uldrick">". Actually, Suvorov did not claim it. I quickly checked the source (article by Uldrick), and nowhere it tells that according to Suvorov, "Hitler acted in self-defense". But even if it would be there, then this is something Uldrick claimed that Suvorov claimed. This needs to be removed or rephrased. Of course if someone can cite Suvorov where he tells such thing, I will self-revert. I did not check any other sources, but simply rearranged and copy-edited the text to remove repeats and make the text more logical and neutral. My very best wishes (talk) 04:14, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: "Self-defense" by Hitler?

message: This edit. "Icebreaker" in the book means the intention of Stalin to use Nazi Germany as a proxy ("Icebreaker") aginst the Europe. The "proxy" (War by proxy, "Icebreaker", whatever) and preemptive strike are entirely different things, subjects, ideas and elements of the book. Saying that "the Nazi Germany was allocated a role of a proxy (the "Icebreaker") in Stalin's plans, and, accordingly, Operation Barbarossa was a preemptive strike." does not make any sense. Such nonsense was never claimed in the book by Suvorov. Neither such ridiculous claim appears in publications about the book. BTW, did you guys read the book? My very best wishes (talk) 19:56, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Nonsense

message: Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was "Lead as closer to before non-consensus reverts; the word "proxy" does not appear elsewhere in the article". --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:38, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I think "proxy" is some equivalent to Icebreaker. Suvorov argues that not only Stalin planned to conquer Europe, he provoked Hitler's attack of Poland and then France. Many authors agree that, to some extent, Stalin had some offensive plans, but only Suvorov claims that Hitler was de facto a toy in Stalin's hands, a toy that at some moment realized its status and decided to break it.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:15, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The concept of a "proxy" is not discussed in the body of the article, so it's confusing to mention it in the lead. What you are describing above ("a toy in Stalin's hands") seems to refer to a patsy. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:50, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I plan to add that to the "Public acceptance" section, because it relates to the recent attempts to whitewash Hitler using Suvorov's arguments. If you have no objections, I'll do that soon.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:57, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, I don't have a problem with that. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:13, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead 

message: I'm not a fan of this addition in the Contents & Points area. It includes self-citations to Suvorov, in addition to much uncited material. --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:43, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The point was to move this content from the Soviet offensive plans controversy article, because that article is not focus too much about Suvorov. Many authors argued that Soviet Union had, to some extent, plans to attack Germany in more or less distant future. Moreover, that was implicitly assumed even by those time official propaganda ("maloj krov'iu, na chuzhoj territorii"). Suvorov's point was more specific: that Stalin planned to provoke a war and to attack Hitler to conquer Europe, and that Hitler knew about that plan. Therefore, Suvorov should not be a central part of the Soviet offensive plans article, and the content should be moved here. By saying that, I don't mind to reduce the content. However, in my opinion, this article, as well as similar articles devoted to some concrete book, should describe briefly what this book says.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:13, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not saying that this content is DUE in the other article. My concern is that it's not suitable on this page in the present form, with the exception of Pipes. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:43, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that section can and should be made shorter, but some references to Icebreaker in the article about Icebreaker are relevant.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:00, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the page should contain info on what the book's contents are. But I don't see that the book should serve as a source about itself. Any interpretation of book's contents should be attributed to a third-party, independent source. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:16, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion, it is in full accordance with V and NOR when a book is a source for descriptive statements about its content. Independent sources are needed for interpretation of the book, not for purely descriptive statements. At least, many WP articles about books are organized in that way.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:29, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self-citations 

message: I've started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Books#Best source for date of first publication about when this book was first published. I thought I would be more likely to find expertise there, but if anyone happens to have access to a French first edition of this book, that would probably also resolve my question. Daask (talk) 18:19, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of first publication