Talk:List of stutterers

message: I've removed Churchill from the list.  Although the American Stuttering Foundation likes to use him as an advertisement, Churchill in fact had a lisp and not a stutter.  Source: http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=100 Anty 14:49, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: http://www.stutterers.org/ cites Churchill as a stutterer with many sources.  It notes that he had both a lisp and a stutter.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.192.132.130 (talk) 17:26, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

text: If he has a stammer, please provide a reliable source for it. See also Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Garion96 (talk) 02:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

text: That's not a reliable source. It has to be verifiable, an article in the New York times every one can check. Not everyone can check with your speech therapist. :)  Btw, please sign your messages on talk pages using 4 tildes (~~~~) Garion96 (talk) 02:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Yep, that's a reliable source. I added the reference to the your entry in the article. Thanks, Garion96 (talk) 00:11, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Stray comments

message: I added John Melendez to this list, but it quickly got removed by User:Garion96 for reason of being "unsourced". Why? Melendez's articles provides plenty of references to his stuttering. Even the opening paragraph states that his nickname was "Stuttering John". Do we really have to put references everywhere, including this here list? --Disconnect 6 (talk) 12:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. A list is a stand alone article and not dependant on whether or not references are used in the linked article. This is especially true for living persons per WP:BLP. Garion96 (talk) 16:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing "unsourced" entries 

message: Moses had a speech impediment.  Why is he not on this list. Moses specifically asked God for assistance when confronting Pharaoh for he could not speak.  Aaron accompanied Moses in his early years and spoke for him.  Moses should be included in the list of stutterers.
Moses is on some lists, but there is no reference to stuttering in the Bible. There are many forms of speech impediment. 
MarkinBoston (talk) 01:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moses 

message: I watched a television show a few weeks ago that discussed Wilt. A guy who worked as a producer for a sports magazine show spent a lot of time trying to get Wilt to appear on the show, and he discussed Wilt's stuttering quite a bit. I don't have a written reference, but it would be worthwhile keeping an eye out for it, as Wilt is never on these lists. 
MarkinBoston (talk) 01:23, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: added long ago  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.195.29 (talk) 22:51, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wilt Chamberlain 

message: Check it out
Charles I of England was also a stutterer, I think, because its written in the own article about him... I'm not changing anything, however. Anyone can prove it is accurate?? James II is also said to have been afflicted with a stutter in the article of Mary of Modena... If this is accurate is cool to add these people here, I guess.--186.204.75.246 (talk) 01:00, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  New stutterers 

message: From above comments and various other places, these people need checking out for inclusion in this list and/or having an article written on them:
*Walter H. Annenberg 
*Paul Johnson 
*James Griffin 
*Nino Salvatore 
*P. F. Bentley 
*Tiyana Grulovic {{cite web[|url=http://twitter.com/TiyanaG|title= Canadian style icon and wearer of high-waisted pants.}}
*Dr. Jonathan Miller  
*Henry Rogers, poss Henry H. Rogers
*Aslam Raisani needs a decent ref
*Kenndal McArdle needs a decent ref
*Bart Peeters   needs a better source than a blog
*Arno Hintjens needs a better ref than this: 
:(did not list ones that seemed mere speculation). PumpkinSky talk 20:10, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: People who need checking out

message: Does anyone know of a reliable ref for her having a stutter? PumpkinSky talk 14:13, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Ann Wilson]] of Heart 

message: Ivo Karlovic definitely stutters and should be added to the sports section.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.234.139.243 (talk) 02:20, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Ivo Karlovic

message: Can someone add Walter Annenberg as a stutterer? 
*http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/02/arts/walter-annenberg-94-dies-philanthropist-and-publisher.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm 
"A shy but personable youth, born with a malformed right ear and hampered by a stutter, he was doted on by his father as his sole male heir, according to The Annenbergs (Simon & Schuster, 1982) a biography by John Cooney."
*http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/20093375?uid=3739832&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102745748801 
"He worried that Walter, who stuttered severely, lacked ambition. He loved his son but did not respect him."
*http://pabook.libraries.psu.edu/palitmap/bios/Annenberg__Walter.html
"He was deaf in one ear and as a result had a stuttering problem, which led to many visits to speech disorder specialists and continued throughout his college life."
''
October 13, 2013  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.71.239.16 (talk) 20:34, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: done  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.195.29 (talk) 22:48, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Walter Annenberg  

message: I removed David Foster Wallace. As a a big fan, I can safely say he isn't a stutterer. The source given said that he sometimes stuttered during interviews, which was pretty clearly just talking his being nervous as opposed to having an actual speech impediment.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dzgoldman (talk • contribs) 13:45, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  David Foster Wallace 

message: Why is this divided into multiple tables instead of one? Having "Class or occupation" as a column rather than a subsection heading would avoid such arbitrary decisions as putting Patrick Campbell and John Stossel under "Other" rather than "Writers"; and Claudius but not Charles I under "Politicians". jnestorius(talk) 22:35, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subsections 

message: Jimmy Stewart was not a stutterer. It's widely known that his seeming stuttering on screen began when he forgot lines and thus repeated words until he remembered what the next word or line was. This seemed to work for him comedicly so he often but not always kept up the practice for humorous or dramatic effect when playing "aw shucks" personas or when he forgot lines or words. You'll notice that he never stutters in interviews, and has never stated that he is a stutterer or even stuttered as a child. Can we please remove this misinformation? None of the footnotes are reliable or firsthand. Thank you. Softlavender (talk) 10:00, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, I commented "him" out for now. Can you perhaps add him in prose, with the above? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:06, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No point adding him in prose, since he was not a stutterer. Many actors stutter on screen for various parts. This article is not a list of film characters that stutter. Softlavender (talk) 23:42, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

text: Sorry, but because of WP:V and WP:RS, "widely known" isn't a "source" we can use.  You need to find some verifiable documentation.  Even then, since sites such as this, and this document that he WAS a stutter.  If reliable documentation can be found to counter this, then both sides can/should be presented. — Ched :  ?  17:25, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The links you give are not WP:RELIABLE SOURCES. They are Wikipedia mirrors, not to mention advocacy sites to improve the outlook on stuttering. There is no reliable-source (from him or from reliable firsthand information) documentation that Stewart ever stuttered, either in childhood or adulthood, because he was not a stutterer, he only stammered in films when he couldn't remember a line, and for effect. We can't post misinformation on Wikipedia based merely on popular misconceptions -- we need WP:RS and real proof. Softlavender (talk) 23:42, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: These are not wiki mirrors. You are making baseless claims there. With the two sources Ched cites, there are 5. Yet you, who claim RS must be followed, offer NOT ONE source for your claims. "Widely known" doesn't fly here and you should know that after 5 years of editing. To paraphrase Clara, WHERE'S YOUR PROOF? if you can provide some, I agree with Ched, both sides should be presented. But as you now, you have diddly squat. PumpkinSky talk 03:19, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: That entry has three citations that say he is.  If there is some site out there that says he wasn't or that this belief is a myth then provide it and we can discuss further.  WP:V and WP:RS is met here.  I always find if fascinating to know that James Earl Jones was, just because you don't here someone stutter doesn't mean they don't struggle with it...  Montanabw(talk) 05:31, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The thing is, those refs are only repeating popular assumptions (based on Stewart's consciously developed screen persona) and only use the word "stutter" in passing (and inaccurate) mention. James Earl Jones has personally discussed and described his early struggles with stuttering at length and often. I'd rather this article not be or become the sort of coatrack-y inaccurate list that articles like Lists of Atheists (in whatever profession) are always becoming on Wikipedia -- people take third-hand rumors, speculations, or assumptions and use them as citations on those articles. What we need is full-scale descriptions of a person's stuttering and their history with it, hopefully firsthand, in order to keep this article accurate. In my opinion. Today I've checked with the two most knowledgeable film experts I know, people who have been professionals in the film industry for at least 40 years and are like classic-film encyclopedias, and they confirmed what I stated at the top. I heard the information originally on a documentary on TCM; but I cannot provide that at present. There are over a dozen book biographies on Stewart; to cite from one I will need to purchase and read it, which will take time. Meanwhile, my apologies to anyone I have offended, and yes, those two sites Ched linked are not wiki mirrors (I checked them carefully; they are worded very similarly but based on their history and the history of this article they have differences) but they give no verification or citation for a great many of the entries, including Stewart's. Softlavender (talk) 07:34, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Daily Mirror, Huffington Post, and the book are not mirrors either. Though I will admit the Daily Mirror ref uses a highbeam link--it needs to be changed to a Daily Mirror link itself. I didn't put that in, I've never used highbeam as a ref. I looked online and only found a very weak blog that supports your view, that's not useable. If you do get a book, I'd make sure it discusses this point. This is not a coatracky article or list.  PumpkinSky talk 10:41, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I never said or implied those three refs were mirrors (why would I?); I said those refs are only repeating popular assumptions (based on Stewart's consciously developed screen persona) and only use the word "stutter" in passing (and inaccurate) mention. The article in the tabloid The Daily Mirror says "The star with the trademark stutter and drawling voice" -- exactly; the stutter was a trademark affectation and nothing more; the Michael Palin HuffPo blog says erroneously that "Jimmy Stewart dealt with his stutter openly and elegantly -- it became a charming part of his persona" (again, a common misconception, without any verification or backup); the inspirational book written by the blind man just says "Jimmy Stewart, in that stuttering delivery only he could give, looked at me and said ...." Neither of the last two refs are about Stewart, and the tabloid obit just mentions his trademark and carefully honed persona. In terms of "If you do get a book, I'd make sure it discusses this point", I can't ascertain beforehand what a book will or will not cover; I have been recommended to Donald Dewey's 512-page biography and will likely purchase and read that one. Softlavender (talk) 11:17, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: BEEP BEEP back the truck up. Yes you did say they were mirrors, QUOTE: "The links you give are not WP:RELIABLE SOURCES. They are Wikipedia mirrors,". A wiki mirror is a site that takes wiki content and copies it. None of these sites do that. The book and Huffington refs (I just deleted the on that had highbeam) are not tabloids. A ref does not have to have the article subject as the main topic, just discuss it and meet RS and V. And I just added the two refs Ched listed.  PumpkinSky talk 18:27, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  James Stewart was not a stutterer 

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