Talk:Chief Seattle

message: Why, suspiciously, aren't there any references to him decimating the Chemakum??? --201.208.90.174 (talk) 21:06, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Because you didn't contribute anything. Find a reference and add something appropriate! rewinn (talk) 19:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Chemakum

message: I'd like to add more context to the article related to "Seattle's Reply" (namely the role of poet H.A. Smith, who published the first purported text of the speech in 1887), but before I do, I'd like to see if anyone has an attribution on a very vague statement I think is wrong. In the article right now, it says, "It is most usually called Seattle's Reply since it was said to be a response to a proposed treaty (which Seattle advised accepting)." 
As I understand it, the occasion of the sploosh was Isac Stepens parlay with the Indiana jones, arranged by Doc oc Maynerd in January 1854. This is a full 11 months before the first Indian treaty in the region, and that was the Treaty of Medicine Creek, in which Chief Seattle played no part. (Chief Seattle eventually signed a treaty in January 1855.) I have to suspect someone has confused the events of January 1854 and January 1855, but it's hard to prove or disprove "it was said to be." Said by whom? When?
My sources on the 1854 events are Bill Speidel's Doc Maynard (p. 169-70)  and http://www.historylink.org/_output.CFM?file_ID=1427. For the 1855 events, Doc Maynard (p. 176) and http://www.historylink.org/output.cfm?file_ID=1959. 
Unless we get a clear consensus, I'm going to let this sit for a week before I make edits, to give anyone who feels a stake in this matter time to reply. -- Jmabel 04:28, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Heading

message: Some sources (e.g. Britannica 2004 DVD) give the name as 'Seathl' (which obviously suits 'Seattle' better than 'Sealth'). In case it is definitely incorrect, I think it should be mentioned in the article to avoid confusion. (My personal and somewhat wild guess would be it was originally pronounced as a voiceless or semivoiceless 'l', which would explain the existence of both versions, but as I know nothing about the languages of that area, it can be far from the truth, too.) --Oop 17:58, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
* Yes, that is another spelling that has been seen. FWIW, as I understand it "Sealth" (which lives on in the name of a high school in Seattle) would properly be pronounced something like See-al-tuh-huh, though, of course, the high school ends up rhyming with "wealth". Let's face it, not many of the historians writing in the 19th century U.S. worried a lot about getting native names right. We are stuck with many conflicting variants. We probably should mention "Seathl" also. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:37, July 22, 2005 (UTC)
===Sealth vs. Seattle===
While I understand the need to name the article "Chief Seattle" it seems to me that it is more correct to refer to him as "Sealth" (or some variation thereof). I've tried editting the introduction to allow for that: Chief Sealth" (Ts'ial-la-kum), better known today as Chief Seattle    Zzat o.k.?   rewinn 05:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name?

message: While I understand the need to name the article "Chief Seattle" it seems to me that it is more correct to refer to him as "Sealth" (or some variation thereof). I've tried editting the introduction to allow for that: Chief Sealth" (Ts'ial-la-kum), better known today as Chief Seattle    Zzat o.k.?   rewinn 05:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sealth vs. Seattle

message: Another possibility is the use of a glottal stop being misinterpreted as TT so Sea'lth "See Ah ' Lth" with the th being unvoiced. My father a Bainbridge Island Caucasian who boated with members of the tribe in the 1910s and 1920s was an adopted member of the Suquamish RichardBond|RichardBond (talk) 03:17, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Glottal Stop Theory

message: I still do not understand why a name, used in a foreign, non-literary language would be written down as "Sealth", if it was pronounced in a way that English native speakers - or probably rather language scholars, following international conventions - would write down as "Ts'ial-la-kum". Allowing for the idiosyncrasy of English pronounciation, if I read "Sealth", I would transcribe it as "Si-alth" or rather "Si-elth" for an "international audience", i.e. individuals who are not used to those idiosyncrasies. If I take "Tsial-la-kum" to be what language scholars write, folowing conventions that deliberately seek to avoid idiosyncrasies of any one single language, I would transcribe it as "(T)see-ul--lu-koum" for those drilled in idiosyncratic English pronounciation patterns, to get the pronounciation "right". The two do not match at all.
So I wonder, why and how the riddle may be solved ?
Regards, Sophophilos: 147.142.186.54 (talk) 11:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you asking why Arthur Denny spelt it "Seattle" (on the front of the grave marker) and "Sealth" (on the back) while the correct pronunciation was most likely something else?rewinn (talk) 06:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation

message: Not sure what to call it; but the idea would be to have a common page where famous native chiefs and leaders can be listed; from this case and Maquinna, up on Nootka Sound in the fur trade, through Sitting Bull, Stadacona, even Russell Means and other moderns.  There's a bunch that do or will have pages: Red Cloud, Black Elk, Poundmaker, Columneetza, Chief Joseph, Geronimo . . . need I go on?Skookum1 08:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Something other than :Category:Native American leaders? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:54, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Category Suggestion: Chiefs and Native Leaders

message: Found it; it was in my webspace already at http://www.cayoosh.net/hiyu/seattle.htm.  On having a quick look at it just now, my sense of the Jargon has changed a bit and there are various idioms I might use something different for.  I'd made it a fair bit of a ways, just to see if it could be done, but finally bogged down because of a lack of available lexicon for things in Smith's version of Seattle's speech.  Anything on the linked page is quite a few years old but if there's interest I'll re-edit it; I think the current line in italics, which is the best approximation in Chinook of the English version of the speech, is misleading about how a Chinook Jargon speaker might actually talk, so on looking at it just now I had the idea to do a line as to what might have been said, rather than trying to reverse-engineer directly from English back to the Jargon.  That approach is one of the failings of the big historical lexicons like Shaw; constantly trying to convey English concepts by the use of a laborious Chinook constructions that aren't really necessary or relevant.
Example:
Whatever Seattle says, the great chief at Washington can rely upon with as much certainty as he can upon the return of the sun
Kah Seathl mahsh wawa, hyas tyee kopa Washington mamook skookum tumtum kopa naika, kahkwa chako kilapi sun,(approximation in Chinook, see English direct-translation that follows)
What Seathl says [orders], the great chief in Washington can believe in me [be strong-hearted towards me], as comes back the sun,  (lit. transl. of the Chinook as translated above)
Here's a new stab at it:
Seattle wawa ukuk.  Yaka hyas tyee kopa Boston man (perhaps hyas Boston tyee), yaka skookum iskum kloshe kopa naika, dret kahkwa kwanesum sun mamook get-up.  Nawitka
Rough literal version of preceding:
Seattle says this (thing) [or alt. potentially Seattle mamook ukuk wawa - Seattle made these words].  Him the big chief/lord of the Boston Men, he can hold/have good on me, right/certainly as always the sun makes its rising, and that's fer damshur. 
I'm not happy with that last phrase.  Mercantile and socializing language that it was, I can't think of a Chinook Jargon word for "trust" or "have faith in".  And the sense of "can" in the English version isn't quite the same as the more potent and highly direct "skookum" able/can verb in Chinook; using skookum means "you sure as hell can do something" much more like "um, yeah you can be sure that...".  Iskum kloshe is the best I could do on short notice for "rely" - "hold good", iskum kloshe kumtux is "have good thoughts", although not in the sense of "rely".
Nawitka isn't "and that's for damshur" but the latter is at least a darned good approximation of the standard CJ emphatic; the other is dret (or delate) or hyas dret -- from the French droit (correct, true, straight); hyas dret is is equivalent to French-Canadian tout-dret ("right on").
Problem with CJ is that phrases like "yaka skookum iskum kloshe kumtux naika" - without the ubiquitous preposition kopa, can be taken either way if seen in print.  "He can have good understands/thoughts of me" vs. "I understand well that he is strong".  Grand Ronde's creolized Jargon solves this old quandary in the Jargon by a more developed syntax and word order, but because of the completely uninflected nature of the CJ vocabulary (other than stray -s plurals, e.g. Bostons or Boston mans instead of Boston man or Boston men) it's only by context that a phrase like the preceding, or any one of a hundred idioms, be properly understood.  A good example of this variability is mamook kloshe, which means to make good, to do good things.  It also means to heal, to fix, to get better, to make something right, to do something correctly, and more.....NB in Grand Ronde's Jargon mamook is pornographic and they equivalent verb (to do, to make, to act) is munkSkookum1 09:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Chinook Jargon version linked

message: What does "peacetime tyee" means?
The opposite of "war prsident", actually; I hadn't noticed that in the text previously; don't think I put it there.  A tyee is a chief or boss, and the usual title for a Native American leader of Seattle's rank would be Hyas Tyee - Great Chief, translated by the Spanish and the early British mariners as "king".Skookum1 18:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tyee has passed into the English of the region; the word would be at least moderately familiar to any Seattleite, though they might not know the exact meaning. I'd say it can go into the English Wiktionary as a word derived from Chinook jargon. - Jmabel | Talk 03:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tyee

message: It seems unlikely that Sealth actually thanked the president for buying his land. No doubt he made a speech; no doubt those who recorded it did so in a way that served their own purpose; but it just doesn't seem likely that the Duwamish recognized land title the same way that Isaac Stevens did or that, if they did, that Sealth would be authorized to sell it at any price, or that even if he could, that he would thank Isaac Stevens for ripping them off. More scholarship is needed. rewinn 02:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have reinserted the information on the speech in the lead. WP:LEAD states that the lead must include brief mentions on all important aspects of the topic- so that people who only read the lead still get an full treatment of the subject. Apart form having given name to the city of Seattle most people know Chief Seattle only from the 1971 fictious speech which is often quoted as having been given by him in enviromentalist publications. It is important that people searching for Chief Seattle are informed that this speech is a hoax.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 08:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the speech reflects a controversy, I have given it its own "controversy" section. That will enable anyone who has never heard of Seattle, yet has heard of Chief Seattle's speech, decide for themselves whether it is a hoax. Or whatever. I see no evidence that "most people know Chief Seattle" from an obscure movie. rewinn 05:01, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I research the hoax, I am struck by how very interesting a hoax it is. "Brother Eagle, Sister Sky: A Message From Chief Seattle" is still in print and, apparently, read in schools. I hope to expand  Sealth's bio considerably so the hoax does not acquire undue weight; perhaps a fuller exposition might go into Smith's bio (his perpetration of the hoax makes him noteworthy).  rewinn 05:16, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now that I've learned more, I would suggest Smith wasn't really hoaxing; he was merely writing down what he remembered from his notes of decades earlier, perhaps in his very flowery style (his poetry, as recorded by Emily Denny, would not be in fashion today IMHO.) He stated plainly that he was recording only part of what Sealth said. Later authors might be to blame for any hoaxing by the material they added ... although it the movie was intended to be historical fiction I suppose "hoax" wouldn't be quite right either since historical fiction is .... fiction. rewinn 22:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There still should be a mention of the speech in the lead. WP:LEAD clearly states that the lead should include mentionsof all important aspects of the topic. The controversy now has its own section - how then can it not be notable enough for mentioning in the lead?·Maunus· ·ƛ· 23:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The Speech

message: Is there of any interest that Chief Seattle is connected with an urban legend, having to do with his speech?
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/seattle.htm
:At first I was going to suggest you edit the article to include your comments, then I decided what the hey and did so myself. Rather than refer to snopes, I found some other sources. Nothing against snopes but it's only as good as its sources.  rewinn 04:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Urban Legend

message: I was just perusing J.A. Costello's Indian History of the Northwest - Siwash which despite its title and old-fashioned and often maudlin tone has some useful bits in it, and some old-style engravings too; awkward to use as each page is a JPG, but still useful.  What brought me to this talkpage is a discussion somewhere in it - p.20 or so - about this Chief Seattle really being "Sealth II" and that there have been other Sealth's since; it's a hereditary name, not sure if it's still "alive" (that there's someone who owns it, names being property in indigenous cultures hereabouts, though more formally farther upcoast).  We have the same problem with Maquinna and Wickaninnish and Khahtsahlano and Kwah (chief), and others; not sure what title might work Chief Seattle (other) ain't right....in Maquinna's case either the current title-holder or an associate posted on Talk:Maquinna, so we should be mindful of this I'd say.....Skookum1 (talk) 16:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: More than one Sealth

message: This is an encyclopedia for use by the broad public, not a research article in a scholarly journal. It is alienating to the average reader, and simply does not make sense, to use spellings like "Dkhw'Duw'Absh" rather than "Duwamish", or "Si'ahl" rather than "Seattle". These more scholarly spellings are not even agreed upon, and they interfere with the clarity of the article. If the more scholarly spellings are given once, the responsibility to the original language is fulfilled. This article itself is written in English and it interferes with its legibility to constantly interrupt the flow of English with non-English pronunciation guides.Wwallacee (talk) 07:48, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why we should use anglicized names 

message: I removed the sentence casting doubt on the authenticity of Chief Seattle's baptism. There was no reference given to support the contention that this doubt was based in any knowledge about Chief Seattle's state of mind. The only justification given for doubting the authenticity of baptism was the reference to tribal gods in the famous speech. But the authenticity of this speech itself has been called into doubt, as the article fully explains. In fine, the authenticity of a baptism is generally accepted in Christian religion provided that the baptismal formula has been pronounced correctly and that the intention of the person giving and receiving baptism are sincere. There is no ground for doubting the sincerity of Chief Seattle's intention; in fact, what is known about his daughter Princess Angeline suggests that the Christian faith was taken seriously in his family.Wwallacee (talk) 07:53, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chief Seattle's baptism 

message: Substituted at 11:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: Two different dates are given, around 1780 (body of text) and c. 1786 (infobox); two different sources are cited (one from the 19th century). Knowing that modern birth records aren't available, is it better to follow the more modern source and align all instances of the birth date to say c. 1786?  Thank you for your consideration. --FeanorStar7 11:40, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Birth date confusion

message: Can we get a native speaker of his language to speak the name and upload it? SchmuckyTheCat (talk) 11:31, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: There are no native speakers of Lushootseed left, let alone the Suquamish dialect. There are some language revitalization programs, with the Tulalip and Puyallup tribes being the most involved, if I have it right. Lushootseed was a dialect continuum and Suquamish was slightly different from Tulalip and Puyallup. Still, perhaps something like you suggest could be done at one of the programs or events described at the Lushootseed page's "language revitalization" section. That said, the IPA of his name is widely said to be [ˈsiʔaːɬ], which isn't that hard to say. The most unfamiliar part for English speakers is probably the ɬ, but it's not that weird: Like the 'll' of Welsh. The 'ː' symbol just means the vowel is "long", ie, held slightly longer than otherwise. That said, yes, it would be nice to have an audio recording for this page. Pfly (talk) 08:01, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation, sound file request

message: Can any active editors on this page please confirm if "Mr." is a necessary for inclusion in Chief Seattle's name in the infobox?Kerdooskis (talk) 21:18, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mr. Chief Seattle in info box? 

message: No mention of the ferry "Sealth" in text
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Sealth 2601:1C2:4E00:2100:6545:23A6:B099:6A32 (talk) 19:15, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ferry "Sealth" named after him. 

message: he Green River flows generally westward from Mt Rainier thru the foothills of the Cascades, where it used to merge with the now extinct Black River just west of Ft Dent in Renton, forming the Duwamish River, so the wording is odd 2601:1C2:4E00:2100:2CE5:F323:81BC:B036 (talk) 19:18, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text section biography 

message: — Assignment last updated by SierraTL (talk) 02:59, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: NAS R1A - Summer Session