Talk:Marrano

message: The article ranges all over time, both before and after the Spanish expulsion of Jews. It needs to be better anchored in time - defining when most conversions occurred, and when the period of most pressure ended (with the expulsion and people leaving?)  It also needs more context of class and economic hostility.  Religious and racial persecution seldom exist in isolation from other forces.--Parkwells (talk) 14:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Timing

message: Someone should find out if the spelling is maranos or marranos and then fix the article to use one spelling or the other.
:"marranos" in Spanish
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What was first? The use of "marrano" for pig or for Christian ex-Jews? I heard that the word comes from maran atha. The same question for xueta.
There is should be a mention of those Marranos (Conversos?) that were devote Catholics. Torquemada and Teresa of Avila were (probably?) descendants of conversos.
There should be a mention to the concept of limpieza de sangre.
-- 62.99.88.10
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"They became very influential through their wealth and intelligence..." Rather POV, no? How about "wealth and intellect", which is at least less loaded. -- Jmabel 06:09, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: "wealth and education". -- Error 01:39, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  First talk 

message: WARNING:  Much of the material in this article is inconsistent with the source material from which it purports to derive.  In particular, claims that the Marranos were ultimately responsible for the Spanish Inquisition are not supported by the articles cited source.  Neither is such a claim supported by other sources on the history of the Inquisition.  Some of the material in this article thus may be rightly considered anti-Semitic.  (Added anonymously at top of article 9 July 2005, moved here.)
* If you think specific statements in the article aren't borne out by the cited sources, please indicate what passages you have a problem with. That is a lot more likely to get the article fixed than a blanket statement like this. (By the way, at a quick read, I think you are basically correct.) -- Jmabel | Talk 00:07, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
* FWIW, it's not from the 1911 Britannica article Marano, which is very short (although it also seems almost to blame the Marranos for the Inquisition as well). In its entirety: 
MARANO (accursed or banned), a term applied to Jewish Christians in Spain. Converted to Roman Catholicism under compulsion, these " New Christians " often continued to observe Jewish rites in their homes, as the Inquisition records attest. It was in fact largely due to the Maranos that the Spanish Inquisition was founded. The Maranos made rapid strides in prosperity, and " accumulated honours, wealth and popular hatred " (Lea, History of the Spanish Inquisition, i. 125). This was one of the causes that led to the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492. Maranos emigrated to various countries, but many remained in the Peninsula. Subsequently distinguished individuals left home for more tolerant lands. The Jewish community in London was refounded by Maranos in the first half of the 17th century. Hamburg commerce, too, owed much to the enterprise of Portuguese Maranos. In Amsterdam many Maranos found asylum; Spinoza was descended from such a family. There are still remnants of Marano families in Portugal.
See Lea, loc. cit. and elsewhere; see index s.v. " New Christian "; Graetz, History of the Jews, Eng. trans, see index s.v. " Marranos "; M. Kayserling, in Jewish Encyclopedia, viii. 318 seq. ; and for the present day Jewish Quarterly Review, xv. 251 seq. (I. A.)
Having read through the article, it seems quite horribly POV. Jayjg (talk) 07:52, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the encyclopedia's "due to" means that the strains of social tensions caused by mass conversions and then suspicions about people, were factors that led the government to undertake the Inquisition.  The gov't was hoping to control social passions for its own benefit.--Parkwells (talk) 14:57, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WARNING 

message: Worth mentioning that 'Anusim' actually means 'raped men' in Hebrew. 'Constrained' would be 'mugbalim'. I have never heard 'anusim' used for Marranos. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.6.169.96 (talk • contribs) 3 June 2006.
I hear the term 'anusim' used all the time for 'Marranos'.  I've allways been told by native Hebrew speakers that 'anusim' literally means 'forced ones'. Yes, I suppose that could have a similar connotation as 'raped', although I've never heard that.  To say it's not used is positively not true.  'Marranos' is slowly being eaten away at by people who are disseminating the fact that it is still considerd deragatory by the sheer fact that it still means 'Pigs'.  It never stopped meaning 'Pigs'. Many make a point out of correcting others at any mention of the term, therefore why should it be used repeatedly, over and over again in an article?  -Avigayilneshama  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avigayilneshama (talk • contribs) 12:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Anusim

message: "The last remaining community, in Belmonte, officially returned to Judaism in the 1970s." Does this mean the last remaining Crypto-Jewish community in North Eastern Portugal? Or does it mean something broader? And, if so, did the others cease to be Crypto-Jewish by also returning to open Judaism? By giving up Judaism entirely? By dying off? - Jmabel | Talk 04:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unclear phrase 

message: Is there a citation for this? I've never heard it; I can't find anything online; and the double "s" would be very unusual in Spanish, though there are other languages in the region (including French) where it exists. - Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jessianos 

message: We have a passage, which I am about to wikify:
According to Historian Cecil Roth, political intrigues in Spain promoted anti-Jewish policies, which culminated in 1391, when Regent Queen Leonora of Castile gave the Archdeacon of Ecija, Ferrand Martinez, considerable power in her realm. Martinez gave speeches that led to violence against the Jews, and this influence culminated in the sack of the Jewish quarter of Seville on June 4, 1391. Throughout Spain during this year, the cities of Ecija, Carmona, Cordova, Toledo, Barcelona and many others saw their Jewish quarters destroyed and massacred. It is estimated that 200,000 Jews saved their lives by converting to Christianity in the wake of these persecutions.
Can someone indicate title and page number of where Roth says this? The article cites two books of his; that would be a lot for someone to look through to find this. - Jmabel | Talk 00:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roth 

message: the classification should be types of conversos, and crypto-judaism one of the types, and in every case it has to say: referred to as marranos as marrano is an insult, not a self-definition. It`s possible that some sephardic jews have forgotten this, but it still is true.
Emilio Juanatey 16:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposition

message: There has been much discussion of what the title of this should be. I'd like to see if we can get some sort of consensus. Could people indicate which of the following titles would be acceptable to them (feel free to add more to the list, and feel free to indicate that more than one would be acceptable to you).
===Marrano(s)===
OK
#Jmabel | Talk 05:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article title 

message: OK
#Jmabel | Talk 05:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Marrano(s)

message: OK
#Jmabel | Talk 05:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Crypto-Jews in Spain

message: OK
#
#
Not OK
#
#
Comments
* Some hesitancy on this one, because it also includes entirely sincere converts, and I think the topic here is those who continued some degree of Jewish practice after nominally converting. - Jmabel | Talk 05:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Converso(s)

message: It says there are four categories but only lists three...? Also, shouldn't the article only be about those who kept (at least some) of their Jewish heritage\tradition? Yonatanh 23:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Types of Marranos 

message: The link to Aristides was there because of this article: 
"He later testified that Mendes was a devout Catholic, but he came from a Marrano background and was very proud of his Jewish heritage." 
As you said, he has nothing to do with marranos. But, if his ancestors did?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.180.152.57 (talk) 13:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Aristides Sousa Mendes]]

message: In the lead, "However, this view has recently come under severe criticism from historians such as B. Netanyahu...": no link to indicate who this person is, no citation to say where he said it, and, in addition the statement seems incoherent to me: of course most Jews who converted to Catholicism really converted. The term Marrano (or crypto-Jew) refers precisely to those whose conversions were insincere or incomplete, and who continued secretly to practice Judaism or to maintain Jewish traditions. Under the circumstances, I believe we should just cut this. - Jmabel | Talk 01:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Introduced in this edit by . Very few edits, none of them with citation, but I'll contact him on his talk page so he has an opportunity to comment. - Jmabel | Talk 01:50, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Netanyahu 

message: Removed the following from article:
 However, this view has recently come under severe criticism from historians such as B. Netanyahu, who believe that many Marranos were actually fully-fledged Christians. Netanyahu, a Professor Emeritus at Cornell University,
uses the court records of Don Isaac Abravanel, the senior court financier during the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella, to demonstrate that Spanish Jewry had absolutely no connection with Marranos and in fact regarded them as fully assimilated Christians. 
By definition a Marrano is a forced convert and therefore not a true Christian so this paragraph makes no sense.--Ezra Wax (talk) 22:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC )
: I don't have Netanyahu's book with me but I know what this is about and it represents a viewpoint which is glaringly missing from the article. Most of the "court cases" which convicted people of being secret Jews involved torture of the suspect. Netanyahu and some others argue that confessions under torture can't be trusted and that it should be assumed that many or most of the victims were innocent. Other arguments are put forward as well. One historian (I don't recall if it was Netanhayu) wrote that the Inquisition was a "factory for making Marranos" rather than an inquiry for finding Marranos. I'm nowhere near ready to edit on this topic but someone should. Zerotalk 02:22, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed claim that Marranos were Christians 

message: While the events described were terrible, the language sounds as if it is lifted from a source that has a definite position in favor of the Jewish population. It's not appropriate for this encyclopedia. --Parkwells (talk) 13:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: This seems to suggest (without sources) that all Sephardic Jews who went to Italy, London, or Belgium were conversos or Marranos. It is very confusing - just as it does not define whether the article is supposed to be about all Marranos, in the broadest sense, or all conversos, or Sephardic Jews in general (it goes into very old history in the Spain section), it seems to assume that all who left were conversos.  I don't think that is accurate at all. Sephardic Jews established a community in London to escape the persecution in Spain and Portugal.  Many went from there to the American colonies, where they were among early settlers in Newport, Portsmouth, New York and Charleston, SC.--Parkwells (talk) 13:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Refugees

message: The article says it is "drawn from" one on Maranos in the Jewish Encyclopedia.com.  It looks as if it was copied and pasted, not drawn from, and this is plagiarism, unless the encyclopedia is open source. This is entirely inappropriate for Wikipedia.--Parkwells (talk) 19:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Plagiarism of much of article

message: Recent DNA studies (2008) of the Y chromosome among people in Spain suggests their ancestry is about  20% Jewish and 11% Moorish.  Results of the studies were discussed in Dec 4 articles in the NY Times and other papers. Researchers believe that these percentages reflect the populations who stayed in Spain and Portugal and converted to Christianity in the 14th and 15th centuries. See "DNA study shows Spain's Jewish and Muslim heritage", International Herald Tribune,  --Parkwells (talk) 19:16, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Percentage of Jewish and Muslim ancestry studied

message: This is still difficult to ascertain.  It seems to be about the buildup to the Inquisition and expulsion, rather than an explanation of the term marranos or conversos.  It definitely should not be titled "Marranos". --Parkwells (talk) 21:29, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Main subject of article

message: This seems to be the real topic of the article, as there is much history before and after the institution of the Inquisition and the expulsion of 1492.  It's too much to add after an article that is ostensibly about the term marranos and where it came from.   The long historical sections should be moved to more appropriate places. The article on Moriscos treats the comparable history more briefly. This one shows the problem with relying too much on the 1911 encyclopedia.  Is there agreement for change? --Parkwells (talk) 15:01, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Conversion, Inquisition and expulsion of Jews and Muslims

message: An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:58, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC 

message: How is Karen Primack's ″Jews in Places You Never Thought Of″ cited as evidence to refer to how scholars should refer to Marranos? This work is neither scholarly, written by a scholar or apparently doesn't even have references within the work to substantiate the contention. The only review on Amazon openly complains that the author doesn't use any scholarly works or references but merely proffers her opinion repeatedly... The comment "In modern use "marrano" is sometimes, but not always, considered offensive; and "crypto-Jew" is occasionally preferred in scholarly works" and citation should be removed... Stevenmitchell (talk) 12:37, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marranos or Crypto-Jews Reference by Karen Primack 

message: I don't get the irrelevant point regarding the supposed Arabic etymology for 'marrano.' Anyone who knows Spanish knows that marrano simply means 'pig,' regardless of any failed groping towards obscure, Arabic etymologies. The word marrano has a meaning apart from that which was applied to the converts, in the context of the article. It's actually a lot clearer if you simply mention that it's a Castillian word which means pig, and then all the dominos will fall into place in the mind of the reader. Another strange Wikipedia article, in my opinion. I propose that that part be taken out. I'll wait a month for it to be deleted, and then if no one objects I'll take it out myself. Thanks. Lighthead þ 00:49, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't the fact that several authors (some are referred to in the article, others here in Talk) have tried to ascertain the etymology relevant enough to mention it in the article? --Error (talk) 22:27, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't change the fact that marrano simply means 'pig.' The explanation in that section is overly embellished with etymologies and shmetymologies. A pig is a pig is a pig... that's all that really needs to be said in that section. I personally don't care if the current edit is left there as it is. I have nothing invested in this article. That's just my advice from the pov of a Spanish speaker. If you'd rather the article be awkward-sounding, then just let it be. My overall point is that if you simply leave the fact that marrano means pig, then the reader will know what the Spaniards of that time were thinking about those particular Jews since all people know that to call someone a pig is an epithet. I mean, marrano also means pig in modern Spanish. I'm not even sure if Old Spanish was still a thing at that time. Lighthead þ 03:37, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That's true today, but what is obvious today was not obvious in the 14th century. The source of morrano itself per wiktionary is Arabic, it's not a Latin root. This term has more of a historic contxt than a present day one.TotallyAbrupt (talk) 06:40, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's with the point about the supposed Arabic etymology for 'marrano'?