Talk:Altar

message: OK, this article needs the addition of non-J/C material... —Ashley Y 03:01, 2005 May 13 (UTC)
:Go for it.  People write about what they know.  If I knew anything about non-Christian altars I'd write something about them myself. Csernica 05:34, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  what does "need" mean?  that is not neutral POV  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.185.60.226 (talk) 03:35, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I'm sorry, but I'm going to revert the wiki that was added here under Orthodox altars.  We're talking about something that can fit into the palm of your hand, so it is in no sense of the word a piece of furniture.  "Ark" is the correct term, corresponding theologically to the Ark of the Covenant (which was, of course, a chest, but it was also far larger) but since that page didn't seem a suitable link I left it at the disambiguation page.  I think it should remain there until a relevant article is written, or perhaps the link should be removed entirely since it might necessitate nothing more than a dictdef. Csernica 05:32, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ark 

message: Recent edits have created an appearance of rupture at Vatican II.  "Expansion of this practice in Roman Catholic churches after the Second Vatican Council, and many Anglican ones, beginning in the 1940s and 50s, was intended..."  The contrast seems to be RC/V2 vs. Anglican/40s - giving the impression that the RC practice started at V2, an impression further enforced with the division of subsections.  I don't think this was the case. The liturgical movement existed well before V2, and I know of RC churches built in the 40s with freestanding altars supposedly because of that. Also, many older churches did have a freestanding main altar that could be walked around, though (except perhaps in very ancient churches) not the centralized form common today. The "prior to V2" section misses this range of RC architecture and would take some work to correct. Or do I have the history wrong?  (Also the Eastern Christian section has a good title, but then only mentions Orthodox; this will be an easy fix.)   Gimmetrow 00:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The editorial fixing I did was to emphasize the move to free-standing altars in Anglican Churches in the 40s and 50s.  The earlier edit made it sound as if this development occurred post V2.  I know nothing of what was authorized in the RCC when. Fishhead64 01:05, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither you nor vaquero did this - it was already in the text, it just ended up a stronger contrast than I think there should be.  The Roman basilicas have freestanding altars; many other old RC churches have a freestanding altar in an apse, much like Eastern churches (Orthodox or Catholic).  I was reading the sentence as intending "both RC and Anglican expansion of this took place after V2, begining in the 40s" - which is probably fair if it refers to a central freestanding altar, rather than in an apse.  That was probably rare in the RC except for ancient basilicas.  Anyway, this article is going to need a serious rewrite to restore a sense of the historical range of architectures.Gimmetrow 01:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Freestanding altars

message: I removed the section on the Bimah in the synagogue. If someone wants to propvide and argument as to why it should be included, please make it, but a Bimah is a reading desk....a mere convenience for the reading of the Torah...there is no aspect of it that I can see that in any way makes it an altar and I think any orthodox Jew, and probably other Jewish folk, would be appalled at it being so equated. It would be like equating a lectern with a tabernacle for a Christian.HarvardOxon 08:58, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree completely (I'm a Conservative Jew, so you're right about other Jewish folk).  I recently did a Google search on "Jewish Altar" and found a disturbing number of photos of modern synagogues with that in their title and description, many of them in Wikimedia Commons.  Someone needs to go through the synagogue photo descriptions in commons and change the word altar to bimah or ark (depending on the primary photo subject).  Many of these photos are otherwise good and disserving of good descriptions. Douglas W. Jones (talk) 18:10, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Altar and Bimah 

message: A section on this is needed; anyone feel confident in writing it? The Singing Badger 13:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ancient Greek altars

message: There are also marian altars in some of the more traditional liturgies. It would be interesting if we could have an entry on this. ADM (talk) 14:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Marian altar

message: There is a socio-political term known as throne and altar which expressed a certain kind of conservatism that is opposed to Church-State separation and the Republican form of government. It was often used in the 19th century by proponents of secularism who were intent on criticizing conservative Christians. It could perhaps deserve a stub because of its historical anti-revolutionary meaning. ADM (talk) 10:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Throne and altar

message: In my opinion, this article has a few too many images. I think we should make a gallery at the bottom. Any thoughts? Shark96z (talk · contribs) 23:13, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too many images 

message: In at least some traditions, subdeacons are permitted to touch the altar and not just the table of oblation, since they must be able to place and remove things on it while serving the bishop. For instance, his miter rests on the altar when he's not wearing it, and in temples where there is no other place for them the trikirion and dikirion must be placed upon it as well. Also, when the bishop unvests after the Liturgy his vestments are place on the altar and the subdeacons need to be able to both lay them there and put them away afterward.
This according to Tikhon, the former OCA bishop of San Francisco, who had never been accused of liturgical innovation. Quite the opposite, in fact, when clergy found his insistence on observation of some traditions bothersome. 192.91.172.42 (talk) 00:16, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you cite a reliable source for this? Elizium23 (talk) 00:53, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orthodox altars and subdeacons 

message: The current definition seems restrictive.  Not all altars are structures.  Not all altars are meant to have offerings placed upon them, and not all of that which are placed on altars are offerings.  The tie-in with sacrifice is particularly unfortunate.  What do folks think of this alternate wording?: Altars are surfaces on which everyday objects are given sacred meaning through ritual activity. fishhead64 (talk) 23:57, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This proposal seems much too vague.  Objects (everyday or not) can be given "sacred meaning" by being placed within a "magic circle" or on some other surface that is not an altar, even on someone's hand or head.  Furthermore, isn't the association with sacrifice the reason why certain Christian denominations that have in their churches what others might see as an altar avoid calling it an altar and use "table" instead?  And aren't all altars (and tables) structures, and aren't they more than just their surfaces?   Esoglou (talk) 06:45, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Home altars are a good example of places on which objects are placed which are not necessarily an offering. I will concur that designating a rock or a stump as an altar is unusual, but they do exist - and I have photographs from my travels to prove it.  Perhaps "man-made or natural structure" would be more precise. fishhead64 (talk) 15:22, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition

message: "Most Protestant denominations have no altar or Communion Table at all, the sanctuary being dominated only by a large, centralized pulpit."
Really? Is that so? Is there any evidence or proof of "most" Protestant denominations having "no altar or Communion Table at all"?
The Protestant churches from the Reformed tradition call it a table, not an altar, but other than that, I cannot even think of ONE single Protestant church (and I have seen many!) that does not have either an altar or a table up in front. Please verify this sentence or delete it. --Anna C. (talk) 17:47, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's incapable of verification: nobody knows the number of Protestant denominations, many of them tiny.  I have therefore changed to "Some Protestant denominations ..."  If the edit spoke about "Most Protestants", there would be some hope of checking.  Esoglou (talk) 18:50, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: "Some" is certainly better than "most". Nonetheless, I would like proof of the existence of at least a few relevant Protestant denominations that have neither altar nor Communion table. I do not know of any. And it should be possible to verify that at least if this sentence is to remain in the article. --Anna C. (talk) 14:11, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

text: Think of one-building denominations, think of Protestant "televangelists", think of Pentecostalists.  I have replaced the citation concerning the Irish church with a few that I hope you will find sufficient.  Esoglou (talk) 08:09, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  No altar in "most Protestant denominations"? 

message: "Lutheran altars are commonly made out of granite"
I would like to see some verification of this very general statement.
I have seen brick, stone (many different kinds), wood, etc. etc. altars in Lutheran churches, and I don't think that there is any such rule.
Or does this sentence refer to the altars in any particular country? Then that would need to be specified. --Anna C. (talk) 21:57, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Granite? 

message: I was one of the proponents for expansion. I was not the only one. Further my assumption was that this meant "limited expansion".  I did not want to perpetuate the idea that every-thing that might be even thought about as being an altar be included in the article. While the article is better; I never wanted to suggest an "all-inclusive" description in detail in the first place. It would be impossible to list everything that might have been even thought about as being used as an altar anyway. The contention I had, was in the fact that the article was biased in the first place.  I suggested to incorporate examples of "altars" from cultures outside of Christianity, whether that is the precise word they use{d} for the object or not.  
The definition for "altar" according to: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/altar is as follows:
: a raised place on which sacrifices and gifts are offered in some religions
: a platform or table used as a center of worship in Christian ceremonies and services
The first definition does not make a distinctly "Christian" usage.  The second one does.  Therefore we could assume that according to at least this one dictionary that the modern {current} usage of the definition of the word is both Christian and Non-Christian is usage.  Even with this distinction; I fear that the article may be becoming "too much."  My proposition; as I am no longer editing this article... I have taken a backseat... is for those currently involved in the process to look at "major commonalities." The information on the Christian usages is excellent.  I never suggested deleting any of it, by the way, which is what some people accused me of doing.  Not everything that is considered to be an Altar in every context needs to be incorporated.  Instead, I propose to examine more common usages.  My reflection on the Shinto usage is that it was most distinctly a poor example... however I was using the examples and materials I had with me at the time.  Signed, {formerly --crimsonpeacefulwolf...} 165.138.95.59 (talk) 16:48, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: ?Expansion or Too much?

message: The first sentence was incoherent, since the addition of "and worship" -- it does not make sense to "make worship on an altar". I was inspired by the much clearer definition in SOED:
A raised structure, with a plane top, on which to place or sacrifice offerings to a deity. [...] the 'holy table' of the Eng. Prayer-book, which occupies the place of the altars removed after the Reformation.
The only problem I see with this is that the article includes "Buddhist altars", and Buddhism does not have any deities (AIUI). So I just moved out the "and worship" to an extension about the 'holy table'. I think this covers more or less all cases, because as pointed out, nonconformist churches (at least in England) do not have anything resembling an "altar", nor anything called an altar (whether it is empirically an altar or not, if there exists such a thing as an empirical test for altarhood). Imaginatorium (talk) 06:15, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  First sentence 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: some of the grammar edits were prudential, and some were good corrections of spelling, but I firmly disagree that a liberal removal of commas constitutes a net improvement to the sentences. Most writing has too few commas, and a breathless run-on quality. Sentences should always be spoken out loud, to hear the punctuation, and determine where pauses and divisions are appropriate. Thank you. Elizium23 (talk) 04:21, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar edits