Talk:Government involvement in the Terri Schiavo case

message: This is a good start.  It seems slightly verbose, but we can all address that later.  I'd like to seem some mention of Pres. Bush's snap trip back to Washington to sign the Palm Sunday Compromise.  This was later characterized as very partisian by many folks when compared to the administration's handling of the Red Lake High School massacre.  It may give the reader a better understanding of the political atmosphere that surrounded the issues.--ghost 16:22, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 04/18/2005

message: I disagree with these changes in the strongest possible terms.  I will wait a short period to change the article to allow others the oppurtunity to revert it on their own.  See my explanations on User talk:Professor Ninja.  See also the Ms/Mrs. entries on Talk:Terri Schiavo. --ghost 05:57, 19 Apr 20e05 (UTC)
:I'd like to bring this article into line with FuelWagon's recent edit of the Terri Schiavo page.  Comments, questions?--ghost 20:16, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  Switched to informal.  Switched some of the "Mrs. Schiavo's parents" references to "the Schindlers".--ghost 04:07, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Change of Ms. Schiavo to Schiavo 

message: I removed/edited some of the following:
*Republican leaders in the House of Representatives, including Dennis Hastert of Illinois, Tom DeLay of Texas and Tom Davis of Virginia, opened a congressional inquiry of the House Government Reform Committee, which was to take place in Clearwater on March 25, and issued subpoenas for Terri and Michael Schiavo and several hospice workers. Because of her condition, Schiavo obviously would not have been able to testify; however, the subpoena gave her federal protection as a prospective witness, as it is a federal crime to prevent a person from testifying before Congress.  Greer struck the subpoenas down as unconstitutional, although as a state judge, he did not have the legal authority to strike down congressional actions. Congress, however, did not appeal or assert it's authority to issue the subpoenas.
The last section may be POV, since I could find not backing of Judge Greer's authority in the matter.  Since it was upheld, does it matter?--ghost 17:35, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Judge Greer's Jurisdiction

message: Here is the diff in question.
Here are the 2 links: One is an opinion piece, and the other a news piece: Don't we treat news items t oa higher standard than opinion pieces; After all, opposing opinion pieces routinely appear, even even though one of them is bound to be a lie, we include both, don't we?--GordonWatts 20:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Here are the 2 links & in question & the diff 

message: I don't think that a link to your site which shows that you petitioned the UN is essential to the story, since nothing significant came of it, and no one coming to Wikipedia is likely to be coming wondering if anyone petitioned the UN.
: Incorrect: The UN was the next logical step, as they indeed handle similar human-rights abuses; I am surprised no one else petitioned the UN, but I suspect that if they did, they were ignored; The UN petition is no less important than any other news item -most especially since we want to include all relevant legal action, and the UN was no less important than, say, the state US supreme court action.--GordonWatts 11:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you; and, for that reason, other readers might also find it interesting to find out what all happened and who did what to seek legal intervention on both sides.--GordonWatts 11:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree: The UN is not very proactive -but you miss another point, which no one addressed; Even if the UN petition news item was not "newsworthy" or "notable," why would not the links to the opinion piece be improper? Links to "less notable" opinion piece writers are present in this article -or related articles. Though I disagree with the UN link dis-inclusion, I shall accept consensus, but since the other link was not even discussed, I shall soon put it back in -if no discussion ensues. Fair is fair: People can't arbitrarily make decisions about a group of things, when only one was discussed; This is inherently un-wiki, thus unfair.--GordonWatts 11:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gordon, since you asked 

message: THIS: Wikipedia consensus process flowchart might be of help here!]]
* Hipocrite asks:  Your revert on this page is here. It merely reinserts external links to geocities.com and hometown.aol.com. Both of those sites are maintained by "Gordon Watts," which I am led to believe is you. Review WP:EL and WP:COI. Hipocrite - «Talk» 13:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gordon, the sites are operated by you, on free webhosting sites. They're personal sites. Leebo86 05:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am the editor, but I am not the only writer; These are not personal sites: My personal sites are listed above; These asre general news sites -and not "one-sided" ones either, but rather, having news content on a wide variety of subject. However, you will always see it is a personal site; What if I was the editor of the Lakeland Ledger (a newspaper) talking to you? Would you then say the ledger is a personal site? Just because I use Geocites or AOL does not make it any more -or any less -personal -and if you wouldn't slam the editor of The Ledger, then -if you are fair -you shoud lnot slam me, but I am a small guy who is making it big, huh, and an easy target huh? Let's not get personal -let's just look at the sites, not the persons, OK?--GordonWatts 05:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I could create a site that looks like that on geocities with similar editorial content in less than an hour (anyone with an Internet connection could). I could get my friends to help, so I wouldn't be "the only writer". That wouldn't make me a reliable source. This isn't personal, this isn't about you, it's about a site that wouldn't be reliable if anyone tried to add it to the article. Leebo86 05:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You raise good points: We need to study WP:RS#Non-scholarly_sources and see if, say, my paper, the NY Times, or the NC Gazette measure up. OK? I'll have to sub-section it, and I agree you have some valid arguments against mine, but in all fairness, we have to look at to pros as well as the cons. Be right back...--GordonWatts 06:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text: More studied reply to Leebo: OK, I studied the actual policy in the section below, and I don't see any major problems. Patsw is right: The Register links are on equal footing with other papers. In fact, it is better in some areas (no Jayson Blair type scandal - Has writers with expertise in more than just writing, etc.) Also, the Wikipedia policy you cited (and which I looked at below, see? I looked at your link!), that policy has nothing to say about whether a site is on AOL, Geocities, or for that matter, on the moon, OK? If you rebut me, please answer below, where the ACTUAL POLICY is discussed, OK?--GordonWatts 07:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some arguments by Gordon for link inclusion 

message: To help address Leebo's concern's here's analysis of ACTUAL policy, OK?...--GordonWatts 06:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "use three newspapers familair [sic]..." - I fixed my spelling error in my post above, but I shall not edit your post.--GordonWatts 07:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:RS#Non-scholarly_sources|Non-scholarly_sources]] 

message: I shall, as an example, use three newspapers familair [sic] to us all -as examples, OK?
This is an exercise in the ridiculous, not so much a case of comparing apples and oranges, but of comparing apples, monkey wrenches, and Nerf balls.
Given that initial premise is utterly false in every particular ---  calling a blog and a badly designed Geocities site "newspapers" doesn't make them so -- the rest of the attempt at amateur legalism is moot and not worth the electrons to refute, though your attempt to claim that open and outright bias as somehow a GOOD thing should probably be noted. 
You wasted a lot of time typing that, Gordon. --Calton | Talk 06:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: An exercise in the ridiculous

message: I have observed massive deletions...
* At 02:41, 13 February 2007 by Calton, where he said: (removed some obviously bad links)
* And again at 12:16, 13 February 2007 by Hipocrite where he said: (rv blogs and personal web pages as sources)
* And in this sub-article at 15:04, 9 February 2007 by Calton, where he claimed (remove aol/geocities links) was justification to remove links that had been there for years without any objections or problems
* And THIS massive deletion at 13:35, 13 February 2007 again by long-time editor, Hipocrite, where he removed a WHOLE bunch of sources and claimed:  (→Sources (External Links) - rm blogs that fail EL)
* And in *another* sub-article, at 00:29, 11 January 2007, another long-time editor, Proto, claimed: "(Reverted edits by Zenger (talk) to last version by Proto)" to justify mass deletions
Folks, we must cite our sources: This is not about "gordon's links," for if you note: MOST of the links are NOT mine, and they can't ALL be bad... And we wonder why Wikipedia is not considered a reliable source itself? Ironic isn't it that the very thing editors claim about other links not being reliable is what contributes to Wikipedia itself not being reliable:
* Wikipedia not reliable paper source; Tony Sapochetti; Issue date: 5/5/06 Section: News 
* "Growing pains for Wikipedia: Post 6 of 17: Recently found it was not reliable" 
* "Wikis and the Idiocy of Crowds" 
* "Wikipedia does not have a lot of credibility within academe, and detractors of the online, open-source encyclopedia say it devalues the notion of expertise that is the bedrock of higher education..." http://chronicle.com/live/2006/10/halavais
* "The Mirror Front Page > News "You get what you pay for: Wikipedia, free encyclopedia, not considered reliable source by some students" By: Joe Carretta; Issue date: 11/2/06 Section: News 
* Wikipedia : growing pains challenge credibility by Jason A. Martin @ 8:00 am. Filed under Media 
* "Of course the INQ comes in for a mention now and then: "I don't count the Inquirer as independent for an article about the meme; they claim to have discovered/started it. Blogs and forums are not reliable sources, and that is all that has been offered here," comments a wiki in favour of deletion." http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37165
* "Wikipedia is a joke. It's basically half a million articles about Star Trek characters. Most of the country articles are re-heated CIA factbook copies. It's very unreliable, and the writing is of a juvenile quality. In other words - it's the product of thousands of geeks with articles that geeks will be interested in." Posted by Karl Jonson at April 7, 2005 12:13 PM
* "Is wikipedia crap: No but some of it is of dubious quality" http://www.bioteams.com/2005/11/11/is_wikipedia_crap.html
* "I'm not a huge fan of Wikipedia, perhaps for the reasons one might expect. The idea is somewhat sound and parts of it are useful, but their attempts to establish “academic credibility” are ill-considered. And as long as they insist on having lengthy articles about people and events they'll eventually end up turning into just another encyclopedia. The most sensible thing is to never use it, and for a totally obvious reason: it's not reliable, and in its present form never can be. 
* Bottom of 3rd paragraph: "Even teenagers chimed in on how Wikipedia was not reliable information in the eyes of their teachers." 
* "Letter to my students on 051203: Friends, Please DO NOT use Wikipedia as a reference source in your semester project. You have a free on-line subscription to Encyclopedia Britannica through the Norwegian School of Management library, and you have access to many other excellent reference tools. Wikipedia is not reliable. [emphasis added] The story below is an example. There is now enough serious incidents of false and defamatory information in Wikipedia biographies to warrant prohibiting this as a reference source in universities and university-level professional schools." 
"Thangs that make ya go 'Hmm...'."--GordonWatts 09:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're saying, "Massive deletions make Wikipedia an unreliable source." And I have to say, "What?" Editing Wikipedia sometimes requires removing large amounts of material (and the diffs you linked didn't even remove very much material). If the material being removed is not reliable, like your site, then it's a good choice to remove it, and it doesn't "make Wikipedia a unreliable source." I think it's pretty disingenuous to attribute a whole slew of quotes about a Wikipedia-wide issue with the material that anyone can edit based on a few examples of removing content according to policy. I'll say it again clearly, there is nothing wrong with removing material (it doesn't matter how much material) if that removal is according to policy. Leebo86 11:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that deleting something is not necessarily bad; Also, I agree that it is not necessarily true that the deletions I outlined had an effect on the quality of Wikipedia -that is, causation does not necessarily mean correlation. However, on the merits, although you and others have made some good points, I feel, for the most part, a very strong (and unproductive) deletionist attitude, some of it maybe well-intended, but you just can't cut and slice and expect it to still work in the end. If I thought my website was a bad source, I wouldn't tell you of others who list it or link to it -even IF I don't have the same reliability of God, all the same, -and the very fact that many people link to my various web sites ought to tell you something. Are you listening to what it is telling you? Thanks once again for your feedback, even thought we disagree in part here. Remember: It is a broader issue about more than just my paper and such. I plan to edit less in the future due to time constraints. Have a nice day,--GordonWatts 13:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There comes a time in every discussion where the parties have to agree to disagree. We have reached that time. Hipocrite - «Talk» 13:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree with both your analysis and most of what Leebo and Frederick write below; also, you may archive this section of the talk page since the concensus (as reflected by the number of votes) doesn't look apt to change any time soon; however, and this is the take home message. These issues are about many different links, not just the ones to my websites (which I agree should look more neat and clean, but I can't always be neat and professional looking in my broiler plate, header, and please everyone with my style; I'll settle for messy but reliable any day), but I don't get paid to publish my site; it is a free service, and I am lucky it is as "reliable" as it is, operating on a shoestring. I concur that this is a dead issue, but this is bigger than just a disagreemenet about my paper - step back -see the big picture. Remember, if you all mess up -whether it is in the usage of sources (we discussed here) -or in unrelated issues (like slander and libel), people may either sue or speak badly about wikipedia. I don't wish any bad things upon the great wiki project, no matter how much we may disagree, and in spite of the problems I have with it, wikipedia is still pretty useful for information, just not totally reliable. Well, that's all I have to say except I'm sorry I didn't publish the NY Times and provide everyone with "perfect" sources; I did the best I could with my small papers. Take care.--GordonWatts 14:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, this discussion is going to go in circles for the foreseeable future. Wanting to remove a link that doesn't meet WP:External links isn't "deletionist", but I think this discussion is not productive. Leebo86 13:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  Look the consensus of experienced editors (both those previously involved in this matter and those like me who arrived here via AN/I) is clearly currently that the links do not meet WP:EL - we can go around the houses with all those smoke and mirror issues all we like - but that's it. At this present moment, I do not see what else needs to be said - this has far more time than most single-purpose accounts trying to push their own free-hosted webpages have! --Fredrick day 14:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok, this is ridiculous. The notion that removing content that is problematic or unreliable makes Wikipedia less trustworthy is simply ridiculous. JoshuaZ 15:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Massive deletions make [[Wikipedia]] an unreliable source 

message: In spite of the somewhat lopsided voting and many arguments, I would like to thank the small handful of editors who have made arguments for and against the links in question.
This is only right because I asked for input from all of the editors who have edited the main Schiavo article since last Christmas (a large number), and very few people responded.
For the most part, apathy dominates. As I write this, I see a request of some sort to ban me or something. As long as you make arguments against me, I am free to rebut them. The best thing for those making this complaint would be to simply ignore the matter: I am certainly not going to start talking to myself, and your continued pushing of this matter even after all parties agree to the concensus is pointless bickering and will do nothing to help the quality here.
Even though I have stopped editing on Schiavo articles (what point would a ban do? I've stopped editing already), the problem won't go away: Even as one of my opponents states here, "I'm active on other pages, and I'm finding that blogs and personal websites are being ruthlessly removed, with the instruction to find the same information elsewhere, or leave it out."
I agree: Even though I no longer edit on the Schiavo pages (where I have usually had no troubles), the problem ElinorD outlines will still be present -long after my departure, even as I had predicted and promised. Banning me when I've quit editing sounds like revenge; If the 3 editors who made this complaint have a problem, they should ignore it, but ban a good user -if you like; It will only detract from the civility -as people will say: "They banned a use who accepted concensus, stopped editing, and merely made a few replies to posts?" --They will say: "If others post, certainly this editor has a right to reply."
I have accepted concensus -and abided by it. Your move.--GordonWatts 14:15, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thank you 

message: This is disturbing.  We are now looking at merging back into Terri Schiavo case if this cannot be resolved. Viriditas (talk) 00:17, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Who's "we"?  Per WP:SUMMARY, that's actually a questionable idea.  Look, just because two editors of this article have made a sprawling, grotesque show of bashing each other's brains out in public view doesn't mean the article itself is faulty. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 06:21, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link rot 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Government involvement in the Terri Schiavo case. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20050416052447/http://mccl.org:80/fp_news/terri%20schiavo%20timeline.htm to http://www.mccl.org/fp_news/terri%20schiavo%20timeline.htm
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20050413111517/http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-delay27mar27,0,5710023.story?coll=la-home-headlines to http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-delay27mar27,0,5710023.story?coll=la-home-headlines
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060109111711/http://abcnews.go.com:80/US/wireStory?id=623657 to http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=623657
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 14 external links on Government involvement in the Terri Schiavo case. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified