Talk:Aaron Klein/Archive 1

message: The anonymous person who has been deleting unfavorable information from this entry calls such information "inaccurate," but no evidence has ever been offfered to contradict it. As long as this information continues to be deleted without cause by those unwilling to identify themselves or offer any legitimate reason for doing so, I will continue to restore it. I believe the full story of Aaron Klein's reporting needs to be told; those who believe otherwise are hiding behind anonymity to censor this entry. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tkrepel (talk • contribs) 12 August 2006.
The neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikipedia principle.  Unregistered users are well-advised to:
:*1.  Refrain from reverting neutral statements of fact.
::*example: "Subject is an American radio host" is neutral language appropriate to an encyclopedia.
:*2.  Learn why weasel words and the like are so very strongly discouraged on Wikipediae.
::*example: "Subject is known to millions on top radio programs" is not.
:*3. Register, and adhere to these quite reasonable standards with more credibility.
Athaenara (talk) 06:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:Edit war|Edit warring]]

message: WP:BLP is the Wikipedia policy on Biography of Living Persons.
"Editors should remove any controversial material about living persons that is either unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source."
I'm removing unsourced material from the main article and moving it to the talk page. What caught my eye was the phrase 'some left-wing critics' which I've seen referred to as 'weasel-wording' elsewhere on Wikipedia. Negative comments should be attributed to an actual source.
:"Some left-wing critics of Klein's reporting have accused Klein of bias, citing as examples his heavy criticism of Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and his apparent sympathy toward Israeli settlers in Gaza and the West Bank who oppose Olmert's policy of Israeli withdrawal from those areas."
If someone can get a source for these comments, please restore the above to the article, with attribution. Also don't call them left-wing critics, give their names. (If they call themselves 'left-wing critics' then that's OK, but it seems unlikely that's how they refer to themselves).
Klein's political views appear sufficiently original that any simply pigeon-holing of either his views or those of his opponents may be unwise. EdJohnston 21:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing sentence pursuant to WP:BLP 

message: He's been at it again during the past week. I waited for awhile to see if he'd learned anything from the strong opposition to his activities, but what was finally becoming a good encyclopedia article is being corrupted once again into quasi-journalistic advertising puffery.  Recent registrant MikeJason has figured out how to get around the semiprotection.  As can be seen from his contributions page, this is the only article he edits.
I am removing the obvious bits ("popular" "well-reported" "top-rated") and leaving the lengthy "Miscellaneous" section (some of which is appropriate, most of which is not) alone for now—perhaps someone else would like to take that on.   –Æ.  ✉ 13:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikification/details:  Klein's date of birth is not given in this article.  Too many external links to WorldNetDaily, not enough links to news sites not directly related to it.  Could find no evidence that Boston Globe or Washington Post carried Klein's "My Weekend With the Enemy" article.  Trimmed Syria/visa and Democrats/withdrawal passages of lengthy quotes from twice-linked news article (citations remain); each now a single paragraph.    –Æ.  11:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mr. no-NPoV is back

message: Nearly 100% of the content of the article was contributed by its subject and, perhaps, also by his employer Joseph Farah, founder and editor of World Net Daily (WND).  The references in the article, with very few exceptions, are:
*Links to articles on the WND website,
*Links to reprints of WND articles on the Y Net News website.
One solution—a modest proposal ...
*After removing the tags (primary sources, autobiography, etc) from the article as per Wikipedia:Userfication, move it in its present form to the userspace of one of the Aaron Klein sockpuppets.
*Extract the bare encyclopedic bones from the present highly POV/COI content, leaving a smaller page in the article name space.
There could also be a disambiguation page for the name but, as Ed Johnston once pointed out, there are no Wikipedia articles for any of the others among the following:
*Aaron Klein—one of the "Ghosts of Gold Hill", murdered in 1842 in the Randolph Mine on Gold Hill, near Concord, North Carolina, in what is now the Charlotte metropolitan area.
*Aaron Klein—mathematician, PH.D. (1966) Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
*Aaron Klein—designer of "Body War" (an AIDS medical educational game in which "human immunity cells struggle against invading viruses, bacteria and tumors") 1986, BT Games.
*Aaron Klein—member of Sierra College Board of Trustees (as of 2004).
*Aaron Klein—candidate, 2006, Montgomery County, District 20, Maryland House of Delegates; chief economist, five years, for Maryland State Senator Paul Sarbanes' Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee.
**(This one may be User:Cooldogc (talk) (contribs): an image uploaded by that user was the subject of a posted "Image tagging :Image:Aaron klein photo.jpg" warning.  A few months later, the same user once blanked the Aaron Klein article.)
*Aaron Klein—reporter, World Net Daily.
*Aaron J. Klein, not a WND reporter but military and intelligence affairs correspondent in the Jerusalem bureau of Time magazine and author of a book about the Munich Massacre, Striking Back: The 1972 Munich Olympics Massacre and Israel's Deadly Response, Random House.  Hardcover (2005): , .  Paperback (2007): , .
*Aaron J. Klein—Co-translator (with Jenny Machlowitz Klein) of Eliyahu Ashtor's The Jews of Moslem Spain.  Volume 1 (1992) Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society of America.  Volumes 2 and 3 (1993) Lightning Source, Inc.  Paperback: .
: →  Probably not the guy we've been dealing with here, either, even if it was published in Philadelphia.  If he were, wouldn't he have said so?   (Or perhaps he is and will soon tell us.)  
Updated. Expanded on what I posted here 19:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One of these accounts has added a link to Aaron Klein from the Meir Amit page.  It is a factual (if insignificant) addition, so I would feel awkward deleting it, but this should obviously be watched in case Aaron Klein links start showing up everywhere. Joshdboz 23:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, that addition was by .   — Athænara </font>  ✉  14:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: February 2007 status of the article

message: The external links section today, 13:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Excessive linkage

message: A larger assortment (full titles) here, all by Terry Krepel, among others found by searching on Con Web Watch.  Appropriately, as nearly every article cited in the auto-bio was authored by its single subject, these critical articles also have a single author:
*"Where the Killer is a Victim: Why does WorldNetDaily have as its Jerusalem reporter someone who is so cozy with a militant Jewish movement that he whitewashes and obscures its history of violence and extremism?" 12 August 2005, Terry Krepel
*"World Net Daily's Junk Journalism: Its founder and editor is a thief. Its reporters obediently do the bidding of conservative groups. Is this any way to run a news organization?" 12 September 2005, Terry Krepel
*"The Masters of World Net Daily: What are the links between WND and an evangelist and radio mogul who has been accused of being a cult leader?" 19 April 2006, Terry Krepel
*"Aaron Klein's Terrorist Buddies: Another election, another excuse for WorldNetDaily's Jerusalem reporter to try to link Democrats to terrorists. Do the terrorists Klein quotes know he's using them, or are they a party to his game?" 6 November 2006, Terry Krepel
*"Implications Have Consequences: WorldNetDaily's Aaron Klein implies that Fox News paid a $2 million ransom for two kidnapped journalists—then denies that he implied it." 22 November 2006, Terry Krepel
In re accounts and links above: I'm just supplying information here.  — Athænara   ✉  13:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional criticism 

message: See Talk:WorldNetDaily and its Talk:WorldNetDaily/Archive_1 for more furor involving Aaron Klein. The WorldNetDaily article does have a lot of citations of Terry Krepel's work, but I have questions about using blogs in a reference list. The credibility of both WorldNetDaily and ConWebWatch as sources might have to be checked out using WP:RS. EdJohnston 19:35, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Related controversy at [[Talk:WorldNetDaily]] 

message: I removed tag claiming 'factual accuracy' of the article is in dispute.  There is not a single sentence that can be proven factually inaccurate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.1.146.35 (talk) 16:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is still awaiting printed references. Blogs and activist websites are not reliable sources per WP:RS.  Until such time as good references are provided, the whole article must be considered unconfirmed, and the accuracy banner is fair. See Wikipedia:Accuracy_dispute:
The accuracy of an article may be a cause for concern if:
*it contains a lot of unlikely information, without providing references.
*it contains information which is particularly difficult to verify.
*in, for example, a long list, some errors have been found, suggesting that the list as a whole may need further checking.
*it has been written (or edited) by a user who is known to write inaccurately on the topic.
There are not even any printed sources for basic biographical details on Aaron Klein's life. It's not up to us to prove things accurate.  If you want something kept in the article, document it.  (This is from WP:V). EdJohnston 17:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  removed tag 

message: Added third party sources to verify "constoversy" section.  The links may be reprints of WorldNetDaily articles but they are published in Ynetnews, which is the website for Yediot Aharonot, Israel's largest circulation print daily.  Also the original WorldNetDaily articles themselves are acceptable as third-party sources anyway as WorldNetDaily is not a blog but a news werbsite accredited by both the White House and the Israeli Government Press Office.  WorldNetDaily articles would suffice here as 3rd party since this article is not about WorldNetDaily but Aaron Klein. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.118.11.112 (talk) 00:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello 192.118.11.112. Since you've now been here a number of times, would you consider logging in with a regular account?  The many apparently-furtive changes using different IP addresses give the impression you would like to make changes without being detected. (It's hardly likely that there are 23 different anonymous editors that all have the same point of view, and collectively edit only one article). It seems likely you are affiliated with Aaron Klein, or at least know him personally. It would make sense for you to take a higher profile on Wikipedia and step up to the plate as a real editor, with a name. You might then be in a position to make deals with the regular editors about the future of the article. It's hard for us to make deals with someone who logs in with a different account every week. EdJohnston 03:32, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He returned as MikeJason (talk | contribs) to re-enact the same WP:COI edit, including removal of the  and the addition of a YNet reprint of a WND article, with the edit summary "signed in with an account name, now which deals do you want to make; this text is fine"—what do you suppose he's really after?   — Athænara </font>  ✉  13:20, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added sources/removed tag 

message: I suggest that User:Tkrepel's new material lacks the support of reliable sources, since it has to appeal to Conwebwatch and Worldnetdaily as references. Was the alleged bad behavior of Aaron Klein covered in any major media? Also, I don't see the interest to our readership of an extensive byplay between two political web sites with opposing views. We ought to be offering the basic biographical facts about Aaron Klein, and I think we've done that. Readers who are eager for more details can go to the respective web sites, that we list in the references. I'm not even sure that the section about 'Klein excluded from Syria' has enough interest to be included in Wikipedia, but I would consider recommending that we restore the version that incorporates that. The Pelosi story appears more substantive. And, from that we may surely conclude that Klein is no longer excluded from Syria. EdJohnston 06:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Allow me to throw myself in here. As the editor of ConWebWatch, I think that I offer legitimate commentary on Aaron Klein. (As ConWebWatch is narrowly focused on conservative news websites, I am probably the only person writing about Klein on a regular basis, so commentary about him by sources other than myself and WorldNetDaily is difficult to come by.) I think that my articles speaks for themselves; my claims about him are fully documented and supported, and they come from a journalistic perspective rather than an ideological one. The fact is that Klein is a biased reporter, and I would like to see that reflected in a way that balances out the current puffery of the article and, also, meet Wiki standards as well as attempts by Klein's sock puppets to delete any negative information about him. I would be happy to do what I can to help achieve a fully rounded bio of Klein. Tkrepel 04:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At present ConWebWatch does not appear to meet Wikipedia's definition of a reliable source. See WP:RS. Our guidelines tend to regard most web sites as 'self published' and lacking the control of a neutral editorial staff.  Since you follow the work of Aaron Klein, you may be aware of mainstream press coverage of his doings, and any quotes from the mainstream press that you find would serve as reliable sources. If the regular press doesn't cover Aaron Klein very much, then that is a vote on which items are notable enough to cover, and we should accept it. EdJohnston 15:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New paragraphs from [[User:Tkrepel]] seem to lack reliable sources 

message: Klein's books is his most high profile venture and absolutely deserves a section; it's been widely covered by the media, including newspapers, CNN, Fox News and celebrity gossip columns and television shows.  As well, there is no debate as to the book title and subtitle.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.200.87.76 (talk) 04:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  added book section 

message: Last year, the information "born August 29, 1979" was added (15:35, 17 March 2006 UTC) and removed (00:19, 21 March 2006 UTC) by someone who was using the anon IP 195.93.60.34.  I don't know how important it is.  Any views on what should be done with it?  — Athaenara  ✉  03:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Birthdate

message: KLein's booting from British parliament was a major event covered extensively by Fox News Channel and dozen's of top U.S. radio shows with audiences in the millions.  It absolutely deserves mention.  Please re-load it.  Regarding coverage, this blog detail's Klein's Fox interview: 
As well:
1) How can you unilaterally decide WorldNetDaily, a news website, is not reliable? 
2) The event is not in question. The entire episode was recorded on audio tape.  The audio is available within this article: 
3) The Jewish Press is a respectable U.S. Jewish newspaper and also reported on the issue.
4) You are using unfair criterea in ruling out WorldNetDaily on Klein's page.  A brief review of other reporters pages finds multiple instances in which the only source is the very newspaper/website that employs the reporter.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Israelafriat (talk • contribs) 00:40, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Klein on Hannity's America 

message: Nearly thirty single-purpose accounts, four registered, the rest not.   Some very obviously used by Aaron Klein and (very likely) by his boss Joseph Farah and others at WND (Wikipedia:Sock puppetry) to edit the Aaron Klein article:
#   Most active (100+ edits) March 2006 to September 2007 (blocked one week, September 2007)
#   January - September 2007 (blocked one week, September 2007)
#  March 2008
#  December 2007
#  December 2007
#  November 2007
#  - October 2007
#  - October 2007
#  - August 2007
#  (?) - August 2007
#  - July 2007
#  - June 2007
#  - June 2007
#  - June 2007
#  - June 2007
#  - May 2007
#  - May 2007
#  - April 2007
#  - April 2007
#  - March 2007
#  - March 2007 
#  - March 2007 
#  - February 2007 
#  - February 2007 
#  - January 2007 
#   November 2006 - January 2007  (~ 13 edits)
#   November-December 2006  (~ 14 edits)
#  - September 2006  (~ 37 edits)
#  - September 2006  (Philadelphia)
#   August - November 2006  (~ 12 edits)
#  - March 2006  (~ 14 edits) (Wrote first version of article.)
→ (Earlier report in Talk:Aaron Klein/Archive 1#Single purpose accounts 1.) — Athaenara  ✉  19:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Single purpose accounts 2

message: 89.138.145.173 posted the following message (diff) on my user talk page:  
:; message to Athaenara 
: Dear Athaenara:
: Since you seem to be regulating the page Aaron KLein, may I ask that you please add the below text to the section titled 'controversy' as I think it is a significant and bio-worthy update.
::; Obama
:: In February, 2008, Klein first reported Senator Barack Obama, a frontrunner for the Democrat presidential nomination sat on the board of a nonprofit organization, the Woods Fund alongside William Ayres, who was a Weathermen leader and has written about his involvement with the group's bombings of the New York City Police headquarters in 1970, the Capitol in 1971 and the Pentagon in 1972.      
:: Klein also reported while Obama served on the board the Woods Fund granted funding to an Arab group Klein said mourns the establishment of Israel as a "catastrophe" and supports intense immigration reform, including providing drivers licenses and education to illegal aliens. 
:: The co-founder of the Arab group in question, Columbia University professor Rashid Khalidi, also has held a fundraiser for Obama. Klein detailed what he said was a relationship between Obama and Khalidi, whom Klein labeled as a harsh critic of Israel who has made statements supportive of Palestinian terror and reportedly has worked on behalf of the Palestine Liberation Organization while it was involved in anti-Western terrorism and was labeled by the State Department as a terror group.
:: Klein's piece gained U.S. media attention, including in the Jewish media, and was also widely criticized by the liberal media as "the first major swift-boating" of Obama, referring to conservative-led attacks against Presidential candidate John Kerry during the 2004 presidential election.    
: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.138.145.173 (talk) 23:25, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Forwarded message  

message: Fellow Zionist Debbie Schlussel has accused Klein of plagiarism, among other things:
Aaron Klein Watch: WND's Plagiarist Rips Off Schlussel Again, Book Plagiarized Schlussel, Israeli Newspapers, Fabricated the Rest
--Kitrus (talk) 06:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That piece also links WorldNetDebbie: Website, Its "Reporter" Aaron Klein Copy Schlussel Column Almost Word for Word in "Exclusive," Plus False Info From Sleazy Source.  Given that Klein (Jerusalem21 and dozens of socks) typically uses WND and his own articles as sources, it might be appropriate to treat these as equally reliable sources.  — Athaenara  ✉  12:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

text: (My sarcasm ("reliable" [not]) above may have been too subtle.)  — Athaenara  ✉  03:16, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

text: My point:  Klein considers himself a reliable source for his notability.  Schlussel probably is a reliable source about the plagiarism.  — Athaenara  ✉  03:23, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe a sentence or two about this could be included in the article, if we could find a newspaper comment on Schlussel's allegations. One would think that, if this story is legit, some of the Israeli newspapers would have taken note of it. A Google search for 'Klein Schlussel plagiarism' gets 1440 hits, at least one of which offers some rebuttal. This offers a way to spend a relaxing afternoon slogging through neutral, pleasant, well-written blogs </sarcasm off> :-)  EdJohnston (talk) 17:53, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

text: Schlussel has little credibility. She has an easily verifiable history of accusing just about everyone who breathes of plagiarism. Her idea of plagiarism is if someone else writes about the same general topic as her. A brief browsing of her claim of plagiarism regarding Klein's article on the Nation of Islam and Obama already discredits her claim; nothing is copied word-for-word or even very similar except the quotes they both obtained from the same source, which would obviously be similar. Klein even credited Schlussel in his article and then linked to her original piece!     —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerusalem21 (talk • contribs) 04:36, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism / Accusations of Plagiarism 

message: Mr. Klein is probably notable.  If so the article should be about him.  The fact that he has criticised President Obama could be mentioned.  But a whole section, sourced by primary sources, should not be used to merely repeat the criticisms. Steve Dufour (talk) 01:57, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Entire coatrack removed (diff) and  tag added for the unsupported claim that "In 2008, Klein gained additional attention for penning numerous investigative pieces critical of presidential candidate Barack Obama." (Underline added for emphasis.)  — Athaenara  ✉  03:21, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good work. :-)  Steve Dufour (talk) 18:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Coatrack

message: "Klein's Hamas interview became a dominant theme of the 2008 presidential elections". This is one of the new claims in the dramatically expanded article, now 30% longer thanks to the November 20 edits of . We might surmise that the subject is once again editing his own article. I suggest that most of these November 20 edits may need to be rolled back, unless better sources for the new emphasis and claims can be provided. Wikipedia is not for advertising or promotion. The citation for the sentence about dominant theme is this Boston Globe article, which does not mention Aaron Klein. EdJohnston (talk) 05:24, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Aye, the subject, his editor/employer, or someone else with a vested interest.  After more than two years of this, is it time for this article to have full protection until the COI SPAs understand that they can't puff this thing up without running into the NPOV policy?  — Athaenara  ✉  06:00, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

text: What was the role of Aaron Klein in the 2008 American presidential election? References in American media that discuss the election campaign don't seem to mention Klein. EdJohnston (talk) 16:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aaron Klein promotional editing 

message: I added a citation needed tag to the claim about the high school newspaper. This is likely to be unverifiable, as, without original research, are the facts that Klein attended Torah Academy or Penn. (For what it's worth, I happen to have attended the same high school, two years behind Klein, and I don't remember a monthly newspaper, but maybe it existed before my time.) Even if this information could be sourced, it's hard to see how any of it is notable, until we get to the newspaper confiscations at YU.  MOE37x3 (talk) 16:09, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, the Penn part is sourced, but the Torah Academy part isn't. I'll delete the latter. MOE37x3 (talk) 16:25, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations needed in Student Career section