Talk:Caterpillar D9

message: This is an article about a frakking line of bulldozers people, not an opportunity for everyone with a grievance to vent their frustration!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.225.188.82 (talk) 19:42, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I completely agree with the above comment and further note that if every D9 bull dozer disappeared from the planet tonight; tomorrow people would simply go out and buy something similar from one of a dozen different manufacturers around the globe!
It is asinine to scape goat a product for mis-use (real, or percieved) by users.
I am sure that your steak knife, care, or other common item has been used by someone, somewhere to do harm - does that mean we should ban those items too?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.252.4.21 (talk) 12:30, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: To which comment are you referring to? You started a fresh section, (and new sections in most cases need to be placed at the bottom of the talkpage), with your comment being the first made.TMCk (talk) 15:39, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Give Me a Break 

message: How on earth can a bulldozer have a controversial reputation? Chadloder 04:02, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd never heard of the D9 before today.  However, the bulldozer used in the Rachel Corrie incident could just as easily have been another model.  The incident distinguishes the Caterpillar D9 not at all, nor does it in the least make the model "controversial." - Hephaestos 01:23, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

text: The demolitions are legal according to the Fourth Geneva Convention under the article that states that when houses are use for violent purposes they are deprived of their civilian-state protection.
BTW, if you want to discuss wording, I welcome it wholeheartedly.  But if an object is really only famed for one thing (which a quick google.com search shows to be quite true), it's irresponsible to censor that out if you're trying to make a knowledge source here.  And if you have anything else about it that seems noteworthy to you, I would welcome it as well.  But, as it stands, this is what the D9 is famous for.  Rei 16:18, Aug 11, 2003 (UTC)
Well, they're widely used in construction and mining, as well.  The D9 is large enough not to be trailered around casually, making the somewhat smaller machines more commonplace.  A few of the excavation contractors around my area have them, though the D7 is more popular.  Like other industrial equipment, there isn't much of a web presence.  I was unaware of an armored version.  Is this manufactured by Cat or is the armor added by others?  I think that to call the machine controversial hardly reflects a balanced view; any number of smaller machines could conceivably been used as well as any of the large machines made by other manufacturers, which are legion. Kat 21:48, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

text: here are some GFDL images on Rachel Corrie that could work here. I've cropped out Corrie herself, so we just get pictures of the 'dozer. Martin 17:43, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

text: I agree with most of what you say, the D9 is truely an amazing machine. The Israel Defense Forces used the IDF D9, which is equipped with heavy armor by Israel (and not by Caterpillar Inc.) for counter-terrorism operations, and it needs heavy armor for good reasons. Most of it use during the Second Intifada was to detonate booby traps, Improvised explosive devices, belly charges, roadside bombs and anti-tank and anti-personnel mines, planted by the Palestinians. The armored D9 survived IEDs as large as 500 kg of explosives (this amount can destroy a house)! Yes, the D9 also demolished houses and cleared farmlands. The IDF states that the demolition is necessary for counter-terrorism measures, as these houses and farmlands are often rigged with explosives (I can tell you about a case in Operation Cast Lead when a D9 knocked down a door and triggered a house full with explosive. Imagine a houseful of explosive exploding and falling on the top of you. The IDF D9 survived, its operators didn't got hurt.) and use as gunposts, anti-tank rockets shooting posts and artillery rockets launching posts -  by Palestinian factions. Should this debate - whether the use of Israel by the D9 is justified or not (I think it does) - should be mention here only in a brief (few sentences, presenting the opinions of both sides), and expanded debate may be held at Talk:IDF Caterpillar D9. MathKnight  19:05, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversial bulldozer? 

message: I removed this part:
>>
According to the IDF, about 50 houses were destroyed during Operation Rainbow on mid May 2004, while according to the Israeli Human Rights group B'Tselem, 114 houses were destroyed in a single weekend, leaving 1,160 people homeless before the operation ; the UNRWA reported 88 buildings destroyed in the operation itself, with 1064 people left homeless.  . Later UNRWA dropped the number to 45 houses razed. 
<<
Since it is pretty unrelevant to the article. It is merely an agrument about numbers. 
I replaced it with a short paragraph 
>>
The destruction of hundreds of structures in Rafah is highly contraversial issue: the Israeli Defence Forces claim the destruction is a security neccessity and that most houses destroyed were used for terrorist activity; Palestinians claim the destruction left thousands of people homeless and is done systematicly in order to create a "buffer zone" between Rafah and Philadelphi Route.
<<
The proper place for discussion is either al-Aqsa intifada article, or the articles about Rafah or Operation Rainbow. I think that's conclude that issue.
MathKnight 14:10, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rafah demolitions 

message: Regarding this link: http://www.killdozer.us/ that anon-user added:
It is some sort of a fan-site to Marvin Heemeyer's armored bulldozer. 
# Does it should be removed or not?
# The webmaster don't understand much about bulldozers. 
#* Marv DID NOT had a D9R model (the tracks are totally different), but an older (I guess a D9G or D9H) which is no more under production.
#* They published a picture of an IDF armored bulldozer and captioned it a "D9R" although it is actually a D9N.
MathKnight 10:00, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heemeyer "Killdozer" rampage in Granby 

message: I placed a NPOV warning on this page. I have not read the complete page but this caption says: An IDF armoured military D9 bulldozer.
D9s were operated by the Israeli Engineering Corps since the Six Day War, with great success." I cannot simply call the destruction of houses of innocent people " great success". It's not NPOV. Bontenbal 17:42, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: No, although I do admit that successes have been achieved with this bulldozer, you cannot say it was successful by all standards. Therefore I suggest you leave leave the words "with great success" out of the caption. Bontenbal 11:12, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  And then the NPOV will be resolved? MathKnight 12:10, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but we also need to change the bold part of the next sentence:  "This method was also employed (with great success) in Jenin during Operation Defensive Shield after 13 Israeli soldiers were killed in an ambush". Either leave it out or change it into  with great success for the Israeli Army. (I also prefer Israeli Army, which is plain English, over IDF which is jargon, but I will not make a problem of it). Bontenbal 23:41, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it is quit clear that the success aspect refer to the IDF. The method enabled the IDF to handle militants efficiently without loosing soldiers for snipers or booby traps. How about changing it to  This method was also employed in Jenin during Operation Defensive Shield after 13 Israeli soldiers were killed in an ambush, resulting in the surrender of dozens of gunmen without further Israeli casualties."  MathKnight 00:09, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: That's okay. If it's changed the NPOV will be resolved! Bontenbal 11:37, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm doing the change. MathKnight 19:30, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  "With great sucess" 

message: I wish to have some IDF sources on the backing of palestinian terrorists.
Ericd 20:54, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: Following the comment:
: Please note: Local newspapers are quite specific in identifying the Heemeyer bulldozer as a Komatsu D335A - not a Caterpillar D9.
I moved this section into the Talk page until the type of Hemeyer's bulldozer could be determined. MathKnight 17:05, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heemeyer dozer - a CAT D9 or a Komatsu D335A ? 

message: This site affirms the anonimous comment.  MathKnight 22:02, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: If no one objects, I'd like to move the details of both Israeli and American usage from the D9 article to a new "Combat bulldozer" article. TewfikTalk 05:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved the appropriate sections to Armored bulldozer. TewfikTalk 03:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Combat Bulldozer 

message: Stop trying to make this article make Israel seem as if it is completely innocent of any wrongdoing.  To call a campaign of demolishing houses and uprooting trees, an anti-terror campaign is not accurate.  Simply leave the facts as they are and let them speak for themselves.
For example- No one on earth can say that Rachel Corrie 'fell and was killed' by an IDF bulldozer, she may very well have been deliberately run over, so the only correct phrasing is to say she was killed by an IDF bulldozer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.144.210.13 (talk • contribs) 
:I hope that I was able to resolve any NPOV issues. Cheers, TewfikTalk 22:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Changes 

message: Currently, the section makes it seem as if the Israeli D9s are used in direct combat with terrorists, while some peaceniks are upset over the vague "destruction it caused to the Palestinians". While D9s certainly have been used in standoff situations, the condemnations center around their much more widespread use to destroy homes and orchards for what is widely seen as collective punishment of civilians. For example, in Gaza, the IDF used bulldozers to level more than a thousand homes simply because they were too close to the Egyptian border for Israel's liking. Entire olive orchards are scraped to the ground because, allegedly, some Palestinian took a rifle shot at an Israeli soldier from the general area. Homes are demolished in the middle of the night, with a half hour's warning to the inhabitants, for no stated reason whatsoever. I realize that this is an article about a piece of equipment, and not about the controversy, but we currently have a section which makes the D9 sound like some kind of magic anti-terror defense shield. Worse than no section at all, if you ask me. Eleland 15:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Military applications section is problematic 

message: From a NPOV I believe that the picture in the info box should be a picture of a standard civilian bulldozer because the vast majority of D9s are used by civilians without any armor. A military bulldozer might give the wrong idea that D9s are made just for the military. I am not saying remove all military photos because that is a use of the bulldozers but most are used for non-military applications. Joedamadman (talk) 01:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If no one else is going to respond to this, I will take the librity of changing the picture myself. Joedamadman (talk) 19:23, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The image is there because it simply gives the best overview of the D9. The pictures of civilian bulldozers were taken from not so good angles and the D9 is partly blended by trucks and other engineering vehicles. If you have a better picture of a D9, you may replace. Maybe it worth a while to achieve a picture of a D9T (even to ask it from Caterpillar tractor company), the latest Caterpillar D9 model. MathKnight Gothic Israeli Jew 16:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I sent an email to Caterpillar Inc. requesting an image in public domain or permission to use any other image. Joedamadman (talk) 21:50, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Let's hope that they will answer and agree to send a picture :-) MathKnight Gothic Israeli Jew 10:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sadly our request for a photo was denied by CAT. If anyone comes across a civilian D9 please take and upload a good photo. Joedamadman (talk) 05:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Good Idea.  I am going to email for this image here and hope we get a positive response. Joedamadman (talk) 22:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: They never even responded. So I am moving onto another image. Joedamadman (talk) 03:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I too sent CAT a request from free image but they sent me to fill some form and after I did that they never returned to me. MathKnight Gothic Israeli Jew 19:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture in the Infobox 

message: Mineplows directs to land mines.  To find out what is meant by 'mineplow', I had to copy the word into the search box.
70.181.235.76 (talk) 20:20, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: fixed, thank you. Frietjes (talk) 16:33, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirecting mineplows 

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thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page 

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