Talk:Home video game console

message: This article is constantly being WP:EXAMPLES-bloated by non-notable or tangentially related devices. I plan on trimming the article down to items that have their own article, and have reliable sourcing, per the usual, most basic inclusion criteria. From that point on, any unsourced entries will be reverted on sight. Sergecross73 msg me 17:52, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: To me, the consoles listed should be the same that appear in the first table on each of the gen pages. So like this page's 7th gen is bloated as it should only be PS3, X360, and Wii. The linkage to 7th gen will give other consoles that appeared during this generation. --Masem (t) 18:06, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I think that would be a good approach. (If you’re feeling ambitious, feel free to go for it. Otherwise I’ll do something like this eventually.) Sergecross73 msg me 20:21, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

text: The problem with trimming the page is that "List of home video game consoles" redirects here.  Splitting this page to maintain a true list will be needed.  My apologies, but I don't know enough wiki to do this for you. UrQuan3 (talk) 01:51, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @UrQuan3 You replying to comments from over 3 years ago. A lot has changed since then. -- ferret (talk) 02:03, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trimming/sourcing 

message: Should the Intellivision Amico be counted apart of this List of home video game consoles?Apha9 (talk) 21:28, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It's more of a console reissue / flashback type unit, and I don't think it really belongs here as a serious competition to the major home consoles coming up. It belongs on on the lists where consoles like the Atari Flashback and Ouya are. -- ferret (talk) 21:36, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconded. Feels a lot like Ouya. We held off putting it in any of the generations, and it worked out well, because it fizzled our before it was commonly considered part of the generation. I could see the same happening with the Amico. Sergecross73 msg me 00:53, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

text: This consoles is categorized as a "Home video game console" for ninth generation. It plays the role of a "Game Wave Family Entertainment System", "VTech V.Smile"/"V.Smile Baby Infant Development System, "Bandai Playdia", or even a "Sega Pico." Some Console aren't looking to be the major thing even the NES ran as an Entertainment System that was because of the Crash of 1983. Plus following generation are going to be more digital than physical. Apha9 (talk) 21:52, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: No, someone put "Ninth generation" without any sourcing, which I've removed. At this time, Wikipedia does not recognize a "ninth generation" as there is not enough secondary reliable sources discussing it in those terms. That's why the section here is listed as "Future" rather than "Ninth". -- ferret (talk) 21:55, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

text: It could still be counted as an Upcomming Consle, it even says it on the first line of the page, and the "Type" considers it a "Home video game console," which technically indicates that it should be on this page.Apha9 (talk) 22:46, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't consider it a Microconsoles, but here a talk page to discuss that there too. Talk:List of microconsoles Doremon764 (talk) 01:09, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

text: Like prior discussions - it really shouldn't be listed anywhere until the industry/third party sources are consistently classifying it anywhere. Sergecross73 msg me 17:19, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intellivision Amico 

message: The ColecoVision was deliberately marketed as "third generation" and directly competed with the Atari 5200 (Atari's followup to the 2600) and Vectrex. Either there is a short-lived generation in between the Atari 2600 group and the NES group or these handful of machines are in the same generation as the NES.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.16.172.103 (talk) 01:23, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The generation numbers we use today are somewhat retrospective. They didn't exist in the 70s and 80s, or even in the 90s. The numbered generations we know now appeared in the 00s for the most part. Either way, ColecoVision's marketing isn't a strong source at all, and the transition from the 2nd to 3rd generation is generally marked by the industry crash in 1983, which ColecoVision was before. -- ferret (talk) 01:38, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

text: As I mentioned in the edit summary, you can’t just unilaterally rename all the eras like this. You’ve got to get a WP:CONSENSUS to make major changes like this, and I think you’ll struggle to get it here. Sergecross73 msg me 01:42, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

text: Generally, we don’t write Wikipedia in accordance with first party accounts of things, especially ones with a vested interest in how they’re portrayed. Electronic Arts has their own internal version generations too. But sources generally don’t use either of their version of organization, or your confusing “the crash was no big deal” stance. So neither should we. Sergecross73 msg me 02:12, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

text: Please see this IEEE paper that slots the 5200 and Colecovision in the 2nd generation. It doesn't try to slot the Vertix, but based on years it would be a 2nd generation. --Masem (t) 03:17, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

text: And the reason why is the bit size of the console. I have recent rewrote the start of Video game console to explain where the notion of generations and the bit wars came from based on sourced information. This held true until the 6th generation when the bit-size measure went by the wayside and we're not just going by general bulk shifts of the market. It's why we don't by when one manufacturer ups their console (eg Nintendo, as it has two consoles in the 8th generation at this point). --Masem (t) 03:19, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

text: True, so as another reference: U.Mich's breakdown of console gens through the 6th here  and if you look through Google books, you'll see the same thing. Basically, today, we recognize that the second gen consoles were the ones that were 8-bit processors, had very limited graphics, used cartridges (rather than dedicated games like the 1st gen) and were released before the 1983 crash, while the 3rd gen were still 8-bit but now with better graphics support (spirit and tile support) after the crash. The generations is not based on how manufacturers have one unit that follows another. --Masem (t) 06:08, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

text: Well, your argument is completely wrong, because there's massive amounts of sourcing that support the structure of the generations from 3 to 8. That ColecoVision sits on a blurry line between the 2nd and 3rd generations is no where near enough to suggest there's an entire generation to insert and renumber everything following. There may POSSIBLY be an argument that ColecoVision simply belongs in the 3rd generation, with NES etc. I disagree, but you could make that argument. That it represents an entire generation that contradicts the rest of the structure though, no. You aren't going to get anywhere. -- ferret (talk) 12:48, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

text: The paper's not the only authoritative source but it is important for grouping purposes. As Ferret has said, there are plenty of RSes that establish that the 5200 and Colecovision are part of the 2nd generation of consoles.  --Masem (t) 13:26, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: To add more, I just found this preprint from a professor at U Pitt that actually explains the whole problem around generations and our (Wikipedia) role in screwing up the scheme.  It's why the 'minor' consoles (things like the 5200 etc.) will always seem off in our scheme but the key ones like NES, PlayStation, Xbox 360/etc. will be correct. --Masem (t) 18:54, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 5200, ColecoVision, and Vectrex are not "Second generation" 

message: I'm proposing a reorganization of several articles that will include or may impact this one that I've outlined at Talk:Video game console#Massive reorganization of several articles proposed and would like input there. --Masem (t) 15:05, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Input on major reorganization of console articles 

message: Fully aware that basically anything regarding the infamous Ninth Generation and its article is not going to reach Consensus any time soon, but we should probably change the name of the "Upcoming consoles" section either to Ninth or Current or anything that isn't "upcoming", given that both consoles are no longer upcoming. Also aware that the PS5 is not yet available in some countries but am not aware of any WP protocol that says that should matter. AsmodeanUnderscore (talk) 12:16, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed ,to "Current". As of now, they are both out in some parts of the world, so no longer upcoming. --Masem (t) 15:34, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

text: Once both consoles are out in every region (November 19th I believe) does it make sense to spin up a 9th generation page?Zallomallo (talk) 16:42, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I forgot to link here but I've started a more central discussion on WT:VG#The dreaded 9th Gen discussion... as there has been past talk there of waiting further  (months from release) to see how the situation is called in sources, even though it could be called that now. --Masem (t) 17:49, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: To be honest, I don't think it should be called "Current". It implies that consoles such as the Nintendo Switch are not "Current", which would not be correct. --ProfessionalCost (talk) 02:40, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename "Upcoming consoles" section 

message: Add the KFConsole to the ninth generation Mario Vergara Enciclopedia (talk) 11:00, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a microconsole, no one is taking is seriously as a competitor to the PS5 or Xbox units. --Masem (t) 14:38, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconded. Sergecross73 msg me 17:56, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

text:  Note that if it was a console, it would not be a micro-console. This is about an Intel i9 10900k, Nvidia GPU able to do raytracing, etc. Given this, performances would be in range of Xbox Series X and PlayStation 5, and if sold, cost may outperform theirs. Outside of the fact it looks like more a joke and a communication effort, the problem here is that unless otherwise stated the KFConsole is a PC with console in its name. Information about a game catalog or game store and things like that to artificially discriminates products into consoles are unknown. -- Illwieckz (talk) 06:52, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

text: Not done: I concur. Melmann 00:41, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add the KFConsole to the ninth generation 

message: The Atari VCS has commercially released and is clearly it's own console with mini PC capabilities as an extra feature. It's time to add it. TheRealLochNess (talk) 06:51, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: so its still being reported as a microsconsole , meaning it would not be included with home consoles.--Masem (t) 13:03, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. And the industry is absolutely not treating it as a new entry in the console market either. Still opposed. Sergecross73 msg me 13:48, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

text: You can not accept it all you want. Wikipedia is built on reliable sourcing. If sources are referring to it as a microconsole and not suggesting it competes against the major home consoles, then that's that. -- ferret (talk) 12:08, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

text: If that's your take away, I think you need to re-read the discussion again. It not being available commercially was always just one of many roadblocks to getting it included. My stance has always been that the reliable sourcing was extremely weak when it comes to the industry considering it in the home console market. So right off the bat, any proposals that aren't based around sourcing are doomed to fail. So you coming in and vaguely saying "it's time" isn't changing anything. Sergecross73 msg me 13:02, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: A strong sign that the industry does not consider it a competitor to the current PS5 or Xbox Series X/S is that it came out this week with barely a whimper, in constrast to when both of these consoles were released and made a huge impact. Its considered almost as a joke within the industry and definitely not as a mainstream home console. --Masem (t) 13:59, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

text: But console generations are defined by those consoles that are generally considered to be major market competitors in the same time period. Just because the new Atari VCS may be classified as a console doesn't mean it automatically classifies as a ninth generation console, as if sources do not consider it as part of the console competitive market, neither do we. --Masem (t) 00:30, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That said, I would agree there are consoles listed in some of the earlier generations that aren't part of those generations proper, under the "competitive" definition. --Masem (t) 00:35, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

text: Again, we're in the business of "documenting" not "creating". Wikipedia is more like a history book, not a news show. You're looking at this all wrong. Sergecross73 msg me 14:50, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

text: I am in a very very slow progress of trying to de-emphasis how the video game console articles have been centric around "generations". It is not that the generations aren't important, but they force a certain structure to these articles that is not useful for many other facets. We need to acknowledge the generations but getting so hung up on them is the problem in the first place. In that fashion, while the Atari VCS would not be listed as a ninth gen, it would be listed as a console released in the 2021 period , however that would be sorted out. But that's a problem that I've not yet figured out how to resolve carefully. --Masem (t) 15:18, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

text: The problem is, a microconsole is a home console (not a computer, which the Atari VCS is not) that is lower computational specs compared to equivalent hardware on the market at the same time. This is what the Atari VCS is, 100%. It is a home console, but it is also a microconsole. See  which I need to update over at our article on it. --Masem (t) 01:35, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

text: There's already a term for it. Microconsole. This is nothing new. The same thing happened a decade back. A few odd editors tried their hardest to POV-push the Ouya into the home console race, arguing endlessly about its "legitimacy" and whatnot, but it never worked, because the industry and the reliable sources that covered it didn't commonly position it like that, not in the Ouya's pre-release, lifespan, or postmortems. Sergecross73 msg me 01:49, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

text: I'm not talking about exact parity between the two hardware-wise, the point is that editors were trying to force a point of view that simply wasn't widely held in the industry. Like this. Sergecross73 msg me 13:09, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

text: Again, if the industry doesn't generally position it as part of the main home console market, neither should we. There's endless sources talking about Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo's respective consoles. There's little to nothing when it comes to consistent reliable source coverage on Atari being a competitor in that market. On Wikipedia, that's a problem. See guidelines like WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE. Sergecross73 msg me 17:08, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

text: Beating the dead horse isn't going to get you anywhere. Wikipedia is built on what reliable secondary sources say. They have called it a microconsole, so it is. From what I can tell, you've provided zero substantial sourcing that would dispute it. Eventually, this becomes a bit disruptive.. -- ferret (talk) 00:48, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

text: When we just have to keep explaining the same points over and over again to you it goes into WP:IDHT territory though. Sergecross73 msg me 12:42, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitrary months later break

message: Here's a list of reliable sources calling the Atari VCS a microconsole. 
# https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-10-01-atari-partners-with-antstream-responds-to-vcs-concerns
# https://www.usgamer.net/articles/atari-touts-more-support-and-revenue-split-to-draw-developers-to-its-microconsole
# https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/04/xbox-architect-sues-atari-over-unpaid-work-on-crowdfunded-console/
# https://www.pcmag.com/news/hands-on-with-the-atari-vcs-a-strange-streaming-slice-of-nostalgia (Not only calls it a microconsole, but literally states it doesn't compete with Xbox/PlayStation)
# https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/ataribox-atari-vcs-console-details-technical-steam-pc-classic-games/ (This one contains a direct quote from an Atari rep that states that "Atari VCS will of course serve up lots of classic content. But it will do and play much more, and can complement other ‘retro-boxes’ or ‘microconsoles’ that consumers may already have in their homes.” - the wording "other microconsoles" would imply that even they consider it a micro-console of sorts, or his sentence wouldn't make any sense. 
I can keep going, this was merely the first hits I found on the first page of the most basic Google search. So it's obviously a pretty commonly stated thing. Sergecross73 msg me 13:01, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources for micro console

message: As I outlined in WT:VG, regardless of where Consensus is or isn't about whether the Switch is or isn't part of the Ninth Generation, it is absolutely a "current console" and will remain so until Nintendo discontinues it, which isn't likely to happen any time soon. AsmodeanUnderscore (talk) 16:48, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: To me, that's fair, at least until the wording is changed. I support this. Anyone else? Sergecross73 msg me 17:37, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

text: Clunky. Call me neutral right this moment. It makes sense in concept but at the same time... clunky. As the entire situation is. -- ferret (talk) 17:50, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

text: As long as this section is called “Current consoles”, there is no reason to not list the Switch. As said before, the problem is that concepts of “generation” and “current” overlap. If a 6th generation console in its original form was still sold it would still be listed in “current” while not removing it from “6th gen”. One alternative would just be to create a 9th generation section (which is obvious for Xbox Series, PS5 and Atari VCS, they are clearly marketed as a new generation), keeping the debate open for the Dwitch, and just list the current ones in a section about current ones whatever the “generation” and debate over their belonging. So basically the table in actual “Current consoles” section would be moved to the 9th Generation section, and the “Current consoles” section would just name those being currently active. Readers would just have to look upon previous sections for details. -- Illwieckz (talk) 02:13, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add the Nintendo Switch to the "current consoles" section 

message: Change the Nintendo Switch from a Generation 8 Console to a Generation 9 console. For some reason the Switch is listed along side the Wii U in the Generation 8 even though they have nothing to do with one another (can't play the same games and zero connectivity). JmanTheHitMan (talk) 23:43, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 4 April 2021 

message: This might be better suited discussion for the Microconsoles page but I figured I'd at least bring it up. Seen multiple articles talking about 2021 being the year of alternative consoles when discussing the Atari VCS, Intellivision Amicco, and upcoming Neo-Geo console. Should we separate these from other microconsoles or make it a subcategory because while not being competitive with Xbox Series X or PS5 they will be directly competing with each other? TheRealLochNess (talk) 06:47, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative Consoles 

message: Should the XBOX Series S  and PS5 Digital be mentioned on this page? Since they're digital consle and don't except Carriages, Cards, or disk. Since it will start the debate on Micro Consle, Retro Systems, PC's and Alternative Consle into a debate. Doremon764 (talk) 00:51, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no debate. The lack of physical media changes nothing. -- ferret (talk) 00:54, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

text: There's no debate. They're the same things minus a disc drive. Sergecross73 msg me 02:39, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, similar to first generation doesn't need a physical media to be a consle.Doremon764 (talk) 20:29, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Xbox S and PS5 Digital 

message: Should we display a picture of the consle right next to it name? Doremon764 (talk) 20:37, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: No, this list is too long for that. --Masem (t) 21:03, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures of Consles 

message: Should we add "console" such as Leapland Adventure and LeapTV? Doremon764 (talk) 14:13, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: They're not considered consoles by any reliable sources; they're more like microconsoles since you had a fix set of games preinstalled on them already. --Masem (t) 14:27, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

text: Thars fine, it doesn't really change Masem's argument. And I agree with him. The industry most certainly group PlayStation and Leapfrog in the same sort of category. Sergecross73 msg me 14:37, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I also asked the same question on the Talk:List of handheld game consoles about the Leapster & Leapster Explorer.Doremon764 (talk) 14:49, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leapfrog 

message: What happened to this article? This article used to be a fun place to look at all the game consoles. It was fun to go through every generation, look at all the images and compare them all in a spreadsheet. Now it's just a massive spreadsheet of every console. Lame. Sure, I could just go to the history section, but I shouldn't have to do that, nor the people that see this for the first time that get a bad impression of it. Ludexteria (talk) 22:47, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Vague idle complaints don't help anyone. I can't tell you what happened if you're not more detailed. Sergecross73 msg me 22:54, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It's way less convenient how it's just a simple list with some statistics. In the past you could easily hop between generations and feel like you're traveling through gaming history. It was fun, yet professional. You don't get that experience with a single spreadsheet. At least have multiple spreadsheets for every generation. It's just flat out cutting valuable information when you don't include the eras of the game consoles or the chart of the major companies and their consoles which included if they were in the top 3 or not. As much as betraying my past self angrily typing is, this article isn't bad, but I feel like it should share some tweaks with its past self. Ludexteria (talk) 00:42, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: You may want Home video game console generations. The problem we have found over the last few years is that there was way too much focus on dividing the market by generation, which itself is an iffy construct that Wikipedia may have partially created. Several articles were re-aligned to de-emphasized the importance of generations in some places while still respecting that division elsewhere. --Masem (t) 01:43, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is garbage (Opinion changed)! 

message: I just noticed that the list in this article excludes "retro style consoles", just a bit after I added the Polymega. I'm unsure if I should keep it or remove it now. Like the Evercade VS, the system is mostly focused on retrogaming, but it also is designed to be able to play non-retro titles. --Mbrickn (talk) 18:21, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Retro consoles 

message: Add Playdate (console) to "Released systems", sorry if I couldn't have added this. Monica Nick (talk) 03:00, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: . The Playdate is a handheld video game console, not a home console. SkyWarrior 03:07, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add Playdate (console) to "Released systems".