Talk:Neapolitan chord

message: A separate article exists with the misspelled title Neopolitan sixth.  It does contain some slightly different information that might be merged into this one.  Also, the chord template on that page should be updated with the correct spelling.  Jzmckay 11:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone's done this -- TimNelson 02:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: I'm fairly certain that "1st Century Baroque Composers" is a typo.  Perhaps 17th century was intended?
Different topic - all the 'flat' symbols appear as question marks. Why not use lower-case b for 'flat'? (That last sentence was intended to end with a question mark!) I'm viewing this in Firefox. Apologies if this is a problem at my end.
Stratopastor (talk) 18:23, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Typo?

message: This would greatly benefit from some musical examples, both sound files we can play of the chords, and references to places in music it can be heard. --Hugh7 08:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Examples

message: I have added two audio examples to the article. Hyacinth (talk) 01:30, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you please add audio examples for minor keys as well? (eg. f, G, c / D-flat, G, c) The Neapolitan chord occurs much more frequently in minor keys, so it should be shown in audio as well. (In addition, for the IV-V-I cadence, while it is an IV-V-I cadence in the audio, it doesn't match what's shown in the accompanying image, as it has different inversions of the chords.) Aurora Illumina 22:11, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Hyacinth (talk) 04:23, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested audio

message: *In the present example of a C major/minor tonic, the D generally moves down by step to the leading tone B-natural (creating the expressive melodic interval of a diminished third, one of the few places this interval is accepted in traditional voice-leading), while the F in the bass moves up by step to the dominant root G.[emphasis added]
The article currently reads as above. An anonymous editor altered it to read "skip" instead of "step" without giving a reason. A diminished third=major second. Step or skip? Hyacinth (talk) 04:25, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd imagine that it's a skip: it's a third, not a second, after all. Double sharp (talk) 15:49, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Step or skip?

message: They seem to be misleading.  The nice little embedded ones that have a play button to click don't correspond to the notated examples around it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.11.151.121 (talk) 06:01, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: How so? Hyacinth (talk) 06:12, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Sound examples

message: I thought to add to this some historical examples (e.g. Carissimi, first major composer of N6, but the few earlier ones known as well - Lassus e.g.). Then I thought how poorly organized this article was. For instance, for a reader with limited knowledge of harmony, throwing in the references to Schenker etc here and there, especially right at the beginning, are likely to be confusing; one should offer a simple basic explanation, better examples and if you want to discuss how it fits into Schenker's ideas, perhaps put that towards the end as a separate section.
Then, I can't find 4 instances of N6 in Moonlight sonata; perhaps I am missing one, besides m 3, 19, and 49. So I looked up the referred article by Drabkin in Grove - and discovered author has essentially stolen that paragraph verbatim, except for the part about the Moonlight, which isn't there at all!!! So that reference is misplaced. And the para should be less of a direct copy of the reference.
There are lots of comments in Talk about better examples, both staff and aural, and I certainly think that can be improved. Overall this article is poorly arranged, and needs some better sound examples. What's the point of the first one, which plays just a chord??? A context is needed, N6 doesn't appear by itself. I'm confused.
Also, in the short listing of historical usage through 18th c, (the cribbed paragraph), there is nothing about Bach's uses or other High Baroque composers; Root position N6 for example appears in Partita 2 c minor, sarabande, penultimate measure. Thus it's misleading to mention that as being extended to root position by Beethoven.
I'd like to work on this article and thought I'd put out my major aims here first, to get some other opinions. If anybody is watching after all this time.Tuningmeister (talk) 02:46, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Still watching, after all this time. It sounds like you have got some good ideas for this article. I say go right ahead with them. If any opposition should surface, that is the way Wikipedia works. I, for one, will continue to watch with interest.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:14, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article needs a lot of rethinking. 

message: I'm probably wrong but,
I always thought the nomenclature of this chord makes no sense..
I know it goes against the rules and the foundations of the Orthodox Church, lol
but in essence:
If your F is so important that it becomes the Root,
and what you want to harmonically highlight/express is the b6 interval created between F and Db,
then the chord should be named from that F note.. therefore it's a Fmb6 (no 5).
Or in other words,
If what you want to harmonically highlight/express is the b6 interval created between F and Db,
and you invert the Db chord giving so much importance/weight to the F note, by placing it in the bottom to create that tension,
you're in essence making it become the Root.
Thus the chord should be named from that F note.. therefore it's a Fmb6 (no 5).
(If the chord was Major I would call it F+ or FAug instead, but it is minor.)
And the full progression shall be: ivb6 - V - im  // Fmb6 - G - Cm
(You can do all the inversions you want to the G or Cm,
that's not really the point, although some inversions will lead/feel differently,
f.e. the usual G first inv, makes it more defined/strong..)
And that's my opinion.
(Before you try to discredit me,
I've studied a few years in a Modern Music Conservatory, but I consider myself self taught,
I've been a Professional guitarist for 15 years, a Studio/session Guitarist for 12 years,
and also a Music Composer and Producer for audiovisual media, including 10 years of Orchestral music Composition for video games..)
(Ofc I'm not saying the article should be modified, 
and I don't pretend changing the minds of millions of strong-minded experts..
But just -> think about it.. ;) Quintessence7 (talk) 17:57, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That's certainly an interesting and valid interpretation within the perspective of jazz theory! In classical music theory there's no such thing as a 6 chord, so classical theorists would always analyze F Ab Db as a Db major chord in first inversion, would never view F as the root of these 3 notes (this has been true since Rameau's theory of fundamental bass). When classical music theorists say iv6 they would mean a iv chord in first inversion (Ab C F in the key of C), not a iv chord with an added 6th (F Ab Db). But, classical theorists would view your explanation as correct in spirit even if not in terminology, because historically the Neapolitan chord was a variation on a iv chord (F Ab C -> F Ab Db), so even though a classical theorist would never call a Neapolitan any kind of iv chord, it is taking the place of a iv chord and functioning like a iv chord. Shugurim (talk) 03:37, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unorthodox Nomenclature Opinion 

message: From what I understand, the Neapolitan chord is an idiom specific to classical music, and when a flattened supertonic occurs in other genres, it functions in a different way, has different voice-leading, and really should be given a different term. (For example, see Adam Neely's discussion, at 1:43 "It's not that commonly used in popular music past the 1850s," or at 2:20 "Outside of European Classical music, it's just not used." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2EJp8IHrBI)
Additionally, this entire article really only talks about Classical music. The examples given are all Classical music, the rules given only apply to Classical music.
Finally, a Google search for "jazz theory neapolitan chord" only turns up sources about Classical music, or sources trying to distinguish jazz usage of bII from the Classical Neapolitan chord.
So, I've just changed the opening of the article to clarify that the Neapolitan chord is a classical-music-specific term. For now I've left in the "examples from Popular music" section but I'm adding a qualification that most popular music examples are some other use of the bII chord, not a Neapolitan sixth. Shugurim (talk) 05:07, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neapolitan is a term specific to Classical music 

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* Haydn from C minor Sonata finale 01.wav
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:07, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Yo. How is that tabbed like . The D flat , F and well A flat . And whatever else ? I am considering how to finger that chord on guitar tuned eadgbe ? 40Pence (talk) 15:50, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  How is it tabbed ? Or played on guitar for ex. 443???