Talk:Dixie Mission

message: At the moment, I would like to expand more on the mission, such as more detail on Barrett's and Service's initial activities.  As well as Dixie's situation after the failure of the Hurley Mission.  Pictures? Sure!  Unfortunately, all my resources are packed up due to relocating (hopefully unpacked in less than a month). I will also look to see if I can incorporate (or at least create other articles) where I might be able to use scans of government files that I do have in my possession. RebelAt 15:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Future Updates and Additions

message: I noticed that an attempt was made to address the question of Communist deception of their real intention and behavior and how much the Americans failed for it.  The paragraph was deleted for violating NPOV.  I thus created the topic "The question of Communist subterfuge".  I hope I have created a suitable spot and tone of voice to address the topic which is worth looking at.  If not, lets discuss how best to go about it here.  If so, please edit, add on, or what have you, to what I just contributed. <I>~ The Rebel At ~</I> 18:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I read somewhere that presents a different picture. It says that the CCP were really socialist reformers, aimed to reeducate the bourgeois class and establish a "people's democratic dictatorship." That's why the CCP carried out various anti-rightist movements and mass collectivization programs to destroy any reactionary vestiges, so I'm not sure what does the sentence The history of the Chinese Communists offers evidence that they did not follow the path of socialist reformer mean. The CCP also never allowed it to be affected by American influences, therefore there was little chance that the United States could have reined in the CCP and prevent soviet alignment. Remember, the CCP was virulently anti-american since the beginning. Incidents including the alleged american marines rape case in Beijing to the charge that the KMT were the lapdogs of the United States. BlueShirts 00:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What I had in mind was that the Communists pursued a policy that was based on Marxism versus the Socialist politics in Europe (Or the U.S. for that matter).  I was also trying to remain NPOV, but I think I leaned to far to vagueness on that one. I'll see what I can to clarify that sentence to better communicate that the Communists were a lot more radical than people like John Service believed. Also in need of reference is the foreign correspondent trip to Yenan that preceded the mission by a few months.  It played a role in encouraging the "Agrarian Reformers" view that became controversial.  I'll also take a quote from Service's report, hopefully not too unwieldy, to serve as an example.  Thanks for the feedback! <I>~ The Rebel At ~</I> 12:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh okay thanks for clarifying. Maybe we can make it clearer by substituting that with the perception of "agrarian reformer" who only wanted to share power within the framwork of the nationalist government. I'm not sure if they directly influenced american policy, but I think we can mention the reports from people like Edgar Snow and Agnes Smedly definitely helped to foster this perception. BlueShirts 21:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Snow and Smedley certainly affected civilian impressions of the Communists, in the same manner as the foreign correspondents (Both Snow and Smedley had visited Yenan prior to this official visit).  I actually have tracked down a New York Times article from May of '44 which explicitly states "agrarian reformers," but was unsure if it would be suitable for reference or not.  I think a sentence to reference Snow and Smedley would be acceptable as to impart an atmosphere.  I know John Davies met Snow and Smedley both in Hankow only a few years earlier, and I'd believe anyone knowledgable about China in China at that time would have been familiar with the two authors' works.  The one thing to avoid is getting too indepth on Communist misrepresentation, as thats probably something that deserves its own article. <I>~ The Rebel At ~</I> 12:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I went and created an article stub for a fuller examination of the topic here Wartime Representation of the Chinese Communist Agenda.  Please reference the discussion page.<I>~ The Rebel At ~</I> 13:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Blue Shirt, you say, Remember, the CCP was virulently anti-american since the beginning.  I find no evidence of anti-Americanism from 1921-1949. DOR (HK) (talk) 05:32, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Communist Deception

message: Below is a link to the material I took from the article, which I saved to a userpage.  I think it can successfully be used in the article Wartime perception of the Chinese Communists, but it will require more than just a cut and paste, hence my saving it here,Saved Material, until an introduction can be written.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 14:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Material from Article

message: Enjoyed this, well done! Just some things that need to be worked on to make it GA
# It is well written. In this respect:
## it has compelling prose, and is readily comprehensible to non-specialist readers; failed
* "Chiang was less than forthcoming and the matter was batted back and forth between Chungking and Washington" Needs a little more clarification for the reader who has no prior knowledge of this subject (like me!) - you have Chungking highlighted, but unfortunately the lead of that article doesn't let me know what the context is for this article. I thought I might have seen something like "former base for Chiang" or something. Since it doesn't, this kind of thing should be inserted in this article, as that's what I'm guessing it is since you use it like "Washington".
**Ah, I see under "The Marshall and Wedemeyer Missions" it gives an explanation, so doing the same above and erasing it here will do the trick
*"Like the Hurley Mission, Marshall failed to find a common ground for both parties and the Chinese Civil War resumed." um, resumed? For a complete ignorant like me, you should probably mention somewhere above that one had started and stopped at some point?
*"best interest to continue supporting the Kuomintang" which is fine, but up until now the article had been using Nationalist party to identify this group. A novice would probably be thrown by this new term
*this sentence needs to be worded better: "As the ambassador, who retained his rank of general despite his civilian post, halted a promotion for Barrett to brigadier general endorsed by the theater commander, General Albert C. Wedemeyer, and accused the colonel of sabotaging his diplomacy between the KMT and CCP"
*Noteable members
**This seems weird: "first State Department representative to arrive in Dixie" since Dixie wasn't really a place but a mission, right?
**"behind enemy lines" what enemy lines? Was the territory of the Communist party considered enemy territory then?
## it follows a logical structure, introducing the topic and then grouping together its coverage of related aspects; where appropriate, it contains a succinct lead section summarising the topic, and the remaining text is organised into a system of hierarchical sections (particularly for longer articles); passed
## it follows the Wikipedia Manual of Style including the list guideline; 
## necessary technical terms or jargon are briefly explained in the article itself, or an active link is provided. failed
*the section "At work in Yan'an" needs some wiki links (Bolshevik, Axis, etc) and also if Agrarian Reformer is a term you can link to, it should be, otherwise it should probably not be capitalized. Found other places where wikilinks would be good and added them but someone should probably do a once-over for this
# It is factually accurate and verifiable. In this respect:
## it provides references to any and all sources used for its material; 
## the citation of its sources is essential, and the use of inline citations is desirable, although not mandatory; 
## sources should be selected in accordance with the guidelines for reliable sources; 
## it contains no elements of original research. failed
* This statement should have an inline citation: "Even before Service's trip to Yan'an, he had developed a strong bias against Chiang Kai-shek, and this bias only strengthened in the Communist atmosphere" so it can't be interpreted as your opinion.
**This one too: "The Communists also impressed the Americans in an effective propaganda move against the Nationalists. They created a reputation for engaging and attacking the Japanese regularly, most often in guerilla raids, that dutifully impressed the Americans, used to Nationalist reluctance to fully engage the Axis power. In reality, the last significant military campaign by the Communists against the Japanese had occurred four years earlier in the Hundred Regiments Campaign by the Communist 8th Route Army. Ultimately a disaster, the Communists had held back on any further large campaigns against the Japanese, but still successfully sold the image of themselves as active fighters."
**"Hurley failed miserably and, at the same time, helped to destroy the future of several of the Dixie Mission members."
**The whole section: "The question of Communist subterfuge" contains a lot of opinion which needs to be backed up by inline citations
# It is broad in its coverage. passed
# It follows the neutral point of view policy. passed
# It is stable passed
# It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic. passed, though does JPDmemo.jpg need permission for the scan to have been made?
plange 23:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks ever so much for the review, having a list like the above to work off will hopefully make for some quick work.  I'll address each issue as I (or someone else) corrects them.  Thanks again!  ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 00:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Nom on hold 

message: *1. it has compelling prose, and is readily comprehensible to non-specialist readers; failed
**Made all changes that fell under this failure heading.
*# it contains no elements of original research. failed
**Hopefully made the changes required and added sufficient citations to meet this.  The Communist deception section should be entirely enforced by citations.
*It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic. pass though does JPDmemo.jpg need permission for the scan to have been made?
**If you look closely at the image's upper left hand corner, you'll see a "Declassification" tag.  As long as this tag is present, it represents permission for the researcher to make a scan or photograph of the document.
Please let me know what else needs looking at, thanks!~ (The Rebel At) ~ 14:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Corrections

message: As best I can tell, you have met all the concerns above and you meet my expectations of a GA article. Congratulations! I've promoted the article.
You all have done a nice job documenting the information here. 
For what its worth, I suggest that you do a little rewriting. English readers find it harder to read texts that use indirect forms of speech, such as passives, participle constructions ("ing" words) and longer sentences. It's not that such passages cannot be read, but they feel "fuzzy", complicated and slow down the reader. For example, this passive: "This task was spearheaded by John S. Service" is easier to read in active form: "John S. Service spearheaded this task" or "commanded this mission." Also, participle constructions such as: "The Americans set immediately to their tasks of discovering as much as they might about the Communists" are easier to read if reworded: "Immediately, the Americans   tried to discover as much as they could about the Communists."--CTSWyneken(talk) 11:01, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First, thank you for passing the article!  Second, unless someone beats me to it, I'll edit the article using your suggestions.  Thanks again!~ (The Rebel At) ~ 12:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Passed 

message: </b>
My grandfather was a "Dixie Mission" veteran and has one of most complete photo collections
of the "Dixie Mission".  There also is a partial de-classified list of the men who were assigned to this mission.  All photo's are copyright of John "Jack" P. Klein who used his personal camera & film while in Yan'an, China.  I have built a website of his experience and photo's which can be found at
www.dixiemission.org cracyk 17:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fantastic pictures!  I'll go ahead and put the site address on the main article page in the external link section.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 23:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  www.dixiemission.org 

message: I took out the language saying that Service "many times" called the Communists "agrarian reformers." I have the Foreign Relations of the United States 1944 VI China (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1967), which has his reports, and I don't see the phrase, which is neither in the index to Esherick's edited volume, Lost Chance in China.
In addition, I will add to the references: Kenneth E. Shewmaker, Americans and Chinese Communists, 1927-1945: A Persuading Encounter (Ithaca: Cornell University Press,  1971), which is a standard academic study based on reading virtually all of the wartime accounts. Ch. 16 "Are They Really Communists?" discusses the "agrarian reformer myth," and states that "much nonsense has been written about it. The conclusion is that the phrase was used at various times, but that Snow and Smedley's overall message is that the CCP were in fact Communists, and to take the use of the phrase out of context is to distort their views. ch (talk) 19:35, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The FRUS China editions during the war are wonderful books.  If I ever get the chance, I'll look up the added sources.  I don't know if "agrarian reformer" would fall into the index or not.  Its been a couple years now since I thoroughly examined the reports and what not.  Regardless, the absence doesn't do really affect the spirit of the content.  If there was a place for it on Wikipedia, I'd upload more of the reports that I scanned in during research on the mission.  Thanks for taking a close eye to the mission.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 01:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Good. I think the phrase got overemphasized in the heat of the argument at the time and is not all that significant in itself. So thanks for indulging my nit picking! But we should return to make sure that the bigger argument over the nature of the Chinese revolution does get spelled out in sufficient, though not exhaustive, detail. ch (talk) 05:57, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

text: I further tweaked the language in the lead paragraphs as the original intention was not to make an alliance or break with the KMT. Theoretically (!) there was a United Front, and even Jiang, when he gave in, went along. ch (talk) 21:38, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Agrarian Reformers? 

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thread_title: File:Marshallmao.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified