Talk:Andrew D. Chumbley/Archive 2

message: I guess the consensus is that 'eclectic' stays - no matter how naff it sounds. Pity. Take your point (above) that 'New Age' may have taken the glimmer off the word 'syncretic' - but how much more so the word 'eclectic' !
Has anyone got a source for this supposed 'Ars Silvera' in the biblio.? I have never seen one (either on the Xoanon site, Occult Art Gallery or sales lists from Caduceus over the years). I think it's time for it to go - as did all the comments added by the same person on the same occasion.reineke 10:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Source for ''Ars Silvera''?

message: Anyone mind if I remove the reference to 'left-handed Tantrism? Firstly, there is no other kind, and secondly I think I've dealt with this in my additions this morning (see f'note 7). This sentence now seems a bit lost - I'll happily remake it, retaining a reference to Gnosticism, though that will mean the Eliade footnote will become redundant. Any thoughts on that one before I start? 
What's the protocol for adding to the discussion thread? - shouldn't comments be added at the end of the document each time? Someone made some useful points, but put them up beside the para being comments upon - is that useful?reineke 10:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Left-handed Tantrism?

message: I've started a new section in which to summarise the salient points of Chumbley's work & magic; I hope this will give a better overview than the previous somewhat vague comparisons. Thanks for the Cauldron no. 98 article title!reineke 15:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New summary section

message: The obit seems good and well-written; I haven't done any detailed appraisal of it, just a quick scan. I'm still concerned that this article is ostensibly just something an unknown person wrote on a message board — not exactly meeting the requirements of a reputable source. Also, articles on message boards that don't have hard links (i.e. simple URLs without question marks, etc) tend to disappear or move more quickly, and if they do disappear they are harder to find using web archive tools like the Wayback machine. The best option would be if you could find something in print in some journal with an actual author it can be attributed to! But we work with what we've got. I'll leave it up to you guys whether the mystery mag article stays or not. I can't speak for its quality, but it does have the benefit of being from some kind of "magazine" which makes it more traceable. Fuzzypeg☻ 21:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Remove the Mysterymag link?

message: I must admit I think Reinike is perhaps getting a little carried away with the Rumi comparisons - Chumbley's 'Qutub' is much more like a rather creaky 'Rubaiyat' imitation - I can't think of anything less like the couplets of 'Mathnavi' or 'Diwani-Shams e-Tabriz' in style or esoteric content than Chumbley's work. Isn't this Wiki article going from one extreme to another? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.92.168.165 (talk • contribs)    
:Reinike seems to be citing the Hekas article for this influence on his work. I note his work is not being compared to Rumi's (as such), rather Rumi is given as an influence. If you believe that the citations as given don't claim there was an influence from Rumi, please explain. I don't have most of the cited works to refer to, so I can't tell whether they contain what you guys say they contain... Fuzzypeg☻ 00:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can find a source who makes these same criticisms you could quote them in the article as a point of contrast; otherwise I'm afraid we're limited in the analyses we can make personally. About the most we can do, if we disagree with the opinion of a quoted source, is to ensure the opinion is clearly cited as originating with that person, and start looking for other commentators holding opposing views. This kind of editing quandry is described in WP:NOR#Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. Remember that Wikipedia's threshold for inclusion of material is verifiability, not truth. Fuzzypeg☻ 04:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rumi 

message: A lot of posters here are saying that Chumbley was held in "high regard". But the only 2 references to this "high regard" is a brief obit from Andrew Collins who doesnt [sic] have anything to do with the occult/magick scene (need to back Collins credentials up) and a biased obit from Michael Howard who has reason to put Chumbley in a good light since he associated with Chumbley. So beyond that the reference over Chumbley's "high regard in the occult community" is very shaky indeed.Collins and Howard represent a very narrow view on Chumbley. So again people are trying to give Chumbley a status that he never actually had. If this "high regard" is evident then printed reference's to this would have to be produced and not personal point of view. 19:59, 26 November 2006 86.148.25.188 (Talk) 
noname: Editorial reviews of Andrew Collins' work:
Graham Hancock, author of Fingerprints of the Gods : "An exciting and original intellectual quest . . . important new facts concerning the mysterious origins of human civilization." 
Nigel Jackson, author of The Horned Piper :  "A magnificently researched work; its starling conclusions will undoubtedly reverberate over the coming decades."
David Rohl, Egyptologist and author of A Test of Time : "A fascinating piece of research which does much to bring the biblical world of Eden back into the historical spotlight . . . a major contribution to the study of the genesis of civilization." 
Barbara Ardinger, Whole Life Times, May 2002 : "Tracking down angels both heavenly and fallen, Collins’ detective work takes him through entire libraries. . . . His conclusion is that we humans are not the first race to live on the planet. Reading books like this one can be as much fun as reading Conan Doyle or Agatha Christie." 
Sandy Moss, The Daily Courier, June 2, 2002 : "A fascinating and in-depth look at . . . how actual events inevitably evolve into the stuff of indecipherable legend as centuries pass." 
Please do your research before you post. I needed only look in Amazon.com to find this. Have you any credible research to back up your opinion? Please add it here. We have produced ample evidence of the high regard in which Chumbley was held in the occult community. Your opinion of the occult community is not a matter for this page or the article. All has been verified except your opinions. Lulubyrd 21:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Tedious attention-seeking stuff" - or cogent critique?

message: Someone needs to reference Chumbleys point of reference for "Sabbatic Craft", and acknowledge that either its an artificial construct of Chumbley's or the Sabbatic term has been "influenced" (to be kind) by Spares "Atavistic Resurgence" and by the material that Kenneth Grant introduced to the world in the early 1970s (Aleister Crowley & the Hidden god ;Frederick Mueller 1973 - Chapter 7 The Sabbatic Wine and the Devil's Graal, and Chapter 10 The Witches Sabbath and the reincarnation of Primal Obsessions.--Redblossom 22:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Additional information regarding Chumbley's influences and repitition of themes from other authors would be great. Unfortunately this article seems to be perpetually on the edge of an edit war, so with trust at a low ebb, solid referencing and reliable sources will help your case a lot. However remember, your sources need be neither neutral, nor unequivocal on their opinions. If their neutrality seems suspect, or if they are merely claiming likelihood rather than fact, we can still find good ways to word their statements. See my comments regarding WP:NPOV above. Fuzzypeg☻ 01:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Chumbley's" Use of the term "Sabbatic"