Talk:Nonogram

message: I think the original historic meaning of "paint by numbers" deserves a standalone article. But I'm hesitant about what to call that article for purposes of disambiguation. Some ideas that come to mind:
* Paint by numbers (art)
* Paint by numbers (craft)
* Paint by numbers (hobby)
I also thought of "Paint by numbers (pastime)", but that doesn't strike me as distinct enough from the topic of logic puzzles.
I'd appreciate any suggestions on this. —LarryGilbert 16:07, July 15, 2005 (UTC)
:I would actually say make it "Painting by numbers", and link it from the top here. Solves all problems. --Golbez 18:16, July 15, 2005 (UTC)
::I'd always known the non-puzzle activity by the name "color-by-numbers".  That would certainly distinguish them, although a link from here to there would certainly be necessary.  - ZM  Zotmeister 18:05, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it isn't notable... it's mere trivia. DreamGuy 16:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historic meaning 

message: I believe, that the http://www.conceptispuzzles.com/ should be included within the external links section, as the site seems to be a bit more than just a play puzzles online. But, the site is alreadylinked from DMOZ, so there seems to be no reason to link to it either. Since the only users that keep adding that site do not even have a login name, it is hard to communicate with them. Please, post here. -- jsimlo(talk|cont) 09:02, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  conceptispuzzles.com 

message: Considering the Alexa page rank and Google page rank of the site, I do not believe, that "Several thousands people are using site gameLO.net". Anyway, the site requires registering to start with and there is no other refference to GameLO name of the Paint by Numbers anywhere. To add the link, you need to prove that it is worthy (see WP:LINKS) and also that gameLO is the name of the Paint by Numbers at least in some country. While I am not the only one reverting your links, I guess I am not missing the point. You will have to do more than keep adding them. What you are doing right now is considered vandalism and self-promotion. Please discuss it here and stop adding the link unless it is resolved here otherwise. Thank you. -- jsimlo(talk|cont) 20:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah... but there were other worthless links there too, so I got rid of those as well. There's already a lonk to DMOZ, that lists a bunch of sites, Wikipedia policy for External links is for those sites with encyclopedic value, not just "hey, you can play games online" or "hey, look, I'm trying to sell some crazy variant I cooked up but nobody has really heard of." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.165.158.131 (talk) 12:45, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External link to the ''gameLO.net'' 

message: We seem to have a chronic problem here with people putting their own websites here and so forth. Wikipedia:External links policy expressly prohibits this, and some anonymous IP address just happening to agree with a chronic spammer is very convenient and all in a sockpuppet sort of way. I removed the Griddlers site as it has no encyclopedic value whatsoever. Wikipedia is not a web directory, so no reason to link to a site just because you can play games there. Similarly, Wikipedia is not a directory of vanity programming projects of little to no value to anyone other than the programmer's publicity and ego. Any anon accounts or owners of the site in question putting the site back will be reverted as many times as it takes to stop it from being here. DreamGuy 07:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, you must be pretty self-righteous barging in here and automatically assuming all anon edits to be sock puppets. While you're right about the griddlers site, you couldn't be more wrong with the solver site. Are you going to smash in the Sokoban entry and remove all references to the solver and call them "vanity programming projects" as well? If you had any modicum of intelligence, you'd realize that Sokoban and Paint-by-Numbers, both being NP-complete, are very very interesting problems (and from the point of complexity theory, equivalent). Since you lack even basic knowledge on this entry, it surprises me that you'd swagger in here and delete references without any knowledge to what they mean. (i) have you tried to program a Paint-by-Numbers solver? (ii) have you tried to program anything at all, other than your VCR? (iii) do you even know what a computer program is? And yes, I'm an anonymous coward here, so remove this paragraph. I don't care. [ PS. No, I'm not adding the solver site back - I've got it in my bookmarks and it doesn't hurt me if people who're similarly interested can't find it here. ] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.120.68.75 (talk) 12:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup, anonymous coward making personal attacks is about right. "Since you lack even basic knowledge on this entry" and so forth is just sheer nonsense. But I do thank you for alerting me to the fact that the Sokoban article had external links that were also full of spam... I took care of that now. So even someone with nothing to contribute here roundaboutly helped the project... albeit inadvertantly. DreamGuy 05:21, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with DreamGuy, that there is no need for any external links to any programs or solving engines out there. Please note that there is a vast amount of nonogram solvers, and that there is no objective criteria to choose which are better. Google solves this for us, doesn't it? Although DreamGuy has shown his lack of knowledge in the computer science here  pretty much, he has a point in removing all sites with play or solve nonograms online or offline. -- jsimlo(talk|cont) 07:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Links, AGAIN

message: I've removed the the very many "Play nonograms online" links from the bottom. If any are needed as specific references we can add them back. I've left the dmoz link for people want to visit a web directory. Zeimusu | Talk page 00:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly.... Wikipedia is not a web directory, or a place for free advertsising, so it's disturbing people keep coming back to readd sites with no informational content, or, worse, to plug nonnotable variants as part of some business they are trying to do. 216.165.158.131 12:42, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Web directory 

message: I think that griddlers.net would be a great external link to add as there are thousands of puzzles available to anyone to do online. Bovineboy2008 (talk) 23:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Griddlers.net 

message: I started a section for solution methods.  I think the language is very confusing, but it's a start.  Feel free to ruthlessly edit, naturally. ESachs 05:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I (re)added a link to a nonogram page on my personal web site. I hope it's useful. - Jehoshaphat 11:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I have tried to write some more global info on the solving process. Hope that it's better than the previous version. I will also try to rewrite all the specific solving methods as well later. --jsimlo 16:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay, I started to describe the solving methods one by one. I use my own diagrams for my own examples, which, unfortunatelly, causes inconsistence in the diagrams. I hope to replace them all eventually. I use Griddlers Solver application to generate the diagrams. --jsimlo 11:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you for your effort on that. Even I did not know some of the techniques - pretty surprised.. 81.88.128.138 11:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Solution Methods

message: The information would be more suited to the Mario's Picross article than a section here.  But before moving it across, I think we should think about fixing the inaccuracies and/or systemic bias.
It mentions that it was released in Japan and US, but makes no comment on anywhere else.  I can tell you that the original game was released in the UK, though again the game never made it big.  I used to have it myself.  The UK (and probably European in general) version is also a little different from what is described here.  The menu structure was like this:
* How to Play
* Easy Picross
* Picross
** Kinoko
** Star
** Time Trial
Easy Picross, Kinoko and Star are sections each comprising 64 puzzles.  Easy Picross puzzles range from 5x5 to 15x15; puzzles in the other sections are all 15x15.  The hint facility is simply an option when you start each puzzle, which completes one row and one column for you, and there's no time penalty for using it - it simply records in your score if your best time for the puzzle was with the hint.
And the time penalty for a mistake isn't as the Mario's Picross article says - it's 2 minutes for the first mistake followed by 4, 8, 8, 8.  Of course, you can't make more than five mistakes because the clock counts down from 30 minutes.  Time Trial is the same as what's been described as Wario's Picross, and a further difference is that it gives you a random puzzle (from a catalogue separate from the other sections) instead of letting you choose one to play.  So the name Wario doesn't appear at all in this version.
I'm not aware that Mario's Picross 2 was ever released anywhere in Europe, but I can't be certain that it wasn't.
-- Smjg 12:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mario's Picross 

message: The current illustrations are good (1nov06) but it would be even better if the puzzle example at the top were accompanied right there afterwards by an illustration of the final completed solution.  Then people could immediately understand visually what this article is all about. 69.87.204.132 22:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope that the animation is the best way to tell, what the puzzle is about. -- jsimlo(talk|cont) 08:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illustrations 

message: As far as I can tell, huge chunks of the history section come directly from http://www.puzzlemuseum.com/griddler/gridhist.htm with little or no editing. 68.190.89.38 10:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: copyright violation

message: :"and the clues of 2 will split the last two blocks by a space, because a box would produce a block of 5 continuous boxes, which is not allowed there."
I beg to differ.  This step is likely to be applied before actually filling in the 2s, as a step towards establishing their position.  The picture doesn't even show this step, but instead shows the application of these two steps and the filling of the 2s in one go.
Consequently, by my judgement 3 is the correct number.  Before the cell is marked as a space, what's to stop one of the 2s extending into this cell?  The logical solution process, starting with the first row in the image is:
# Join up the 5, as currently described.
# Split the two blocks on the right-hand side, as to join them would create a block of 3, which violates the clue.  Then, and only then, is the binding between the blocks and the clue 2s established.
# Each of the 2s then has only one possible position, so finish it off.
Maybe a better picture, which separates the joining and splitting steps from the completion of the 2s afterwards, would help. -- Smjg 18:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are indeed correct.. My fault.. -- jsimlo(talk|cont) 09:27, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "DO NOT FIX THIS NUMBER" under Joining and splitting 

message: I guess you might be interested in Griddlers Solver with Animator and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Griddlers Solver with Animator‎. Give it back 18:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No that independent editors have unambiguously declared that software to be nonnotable spam, I trust that the owner of that site will not be trying to reintroduce links to his own site on this article, either on his main account or sockpuppet accounts... DreamGuy 05:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Can you point out where "independent editors have unambiguously declared that software to be nonnotable spam"?  Tim (Xevious) 11:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The deletion vote. You were there, you saw it, so please don't play dumb. Every non-sock account there called it nonnotable spam and voted to delete. it was deleted. You, oddly, were there making an argument to add a... gosh now, nonograms in computing section to this article, despite it having absolutely nothing to do with the deletion vote. And what are we currently in conflict over now? That's right, the sockpuppets creation of a computing section full of original research and linkfarming. DreamGuy 12:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I saw people decide it was non-notable enough for its own article.  I saw no concensus on it being spam, nor on it being irrelevent to be included in other articles.  Are you calling me a sockpuppet?  Please do.  Oh, and how can a section be linkfarming if it contains no links?  Tim (Xevious) 16:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Griddlers Solver with Animator 

message: I found a useful website that contains programs for solving nonograms. Would this link be appropriate? --Ixfd64 03:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  link to website with nonogram solving programs 

message: When one row or column needs all but the two outside spaces filled in, and an adjacent row or column needs only the two outside spaces filled in, the two rows/columns can be used simultaneously to help solve a puzzle that would otherwise require using contradictions.
An example would be the 2X4 puzzle:
 	 	1     	1     	1     	1
1	1	 	 	 	 
 	2	 	 	 	 
I can give a 6x6 puzzle example if necessary.
There are probably other cases where two adjacent rows/columns can be used simultaneously, but I don't know them.
I thought I'd mention that, even though it might be too rarely useful to add to the article. 206.146.234.45 06:00, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  another solving technique, is it worth mentioning? 

message: The largest known nonogram has a size of 500x500, although so far it has only been solved by a computer. It was introduced on the International Griddlers Meeting, 2nd-4th September 2005, Delft Netherlands. 
--------
DreamGuy's reason to remove it was: nonnotable trivia.
This is not a trivial info. There is no such puzzle anywhere else in the world. It is the biggest created ever, hence - important to mention.
In the external links there was a link to show this puzzle, but DreamGuy removed it as well. No link? No reference? We - who love these puzzles so much - wonder why. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hagitmaor (talk • contribs) 
:The "biggest" whatever is by definition trivia. Biggest created anything is by itself not important enough to mention. You may also want to read WP:COI, as it might apply in your case, considering that the only edits you have ever made to Wikipedia have been to try to get mention of this minor event. DreamGuy (talk) 15:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't it noteworthy that a puzzle that size is considered that difficult?  Certainly a 500x500 Link-a-pix puzzle is not unsolvable by a human.  Also, there are some types of logic puzzles (e.g. Kakuro) in which the size of the puzzle does not matter at all, and others in which the size does matter (e.g. Sudoku).  This fact shows, without a doubt, that Nonograms belong to the latter category.
I just created a 501x501 puzzle that is easily solveable by humans. So there. Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii (talk) 21:10, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undo the following text 

message: I know that Nonograms are the most widespread of the picture logic puzzles that Conceptis hosts, but I think that other puzzles, especially Link-a-pix, should have more space dedicated to them.  I am not sure if there is enough information on any one given other picture logic puzzle, but perhaps the page on Nonograms should be changed to "Picture logic puzzles," and have a section for other puzzles as well.  Mostly, I think it is important to have a section on solving techniques for other puzzles.RheingoldRiver (talk) 09:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other picture logic puzzles 

message: Hi, i'm alright with the external link policy, but dmoz is pretty dead and completly inactiv for littles sections - so i purpose this link : http://nonogram.freehostia.com/
it's a simple poll who group some of new web site where you can play to nonogram...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.239.29.62 (talk) 03:41, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  External link 

message: Nonogram seems to be a good generic name, after the Japanese inventor Non Ishida. Should we make a separate article for him? (Maybe just a redirect.)
But Paint by number dates back to Leonardo da Vinci. We might say that a nonogram is kind af paint by number puzzle. 
There are many names for this puzzle. Are some of this brand names or trademarks? --Uncle Ed (talk) 16:32, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Name of the puzzle

message: Is there a “nonogram constant”, which describes the growth of the number of all n×n-nonograms with a unique solution? --84.61.182.248 (talk) 19:07, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nonogram constant 

message: Anybody know, why as of the 19.10.2019 the Section "Names" was changed to "Luca"? Kinda threw me off guard, seen as my name is also Luca.^^' Thanks in advance  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Super Mario Hack (talk • contribs) 21:10, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Luca"!? 

message: This section seems to exclusively focus on games run on dedicated computers. There is a large set of games run on - at least - Android smartphones. Those are missing completely.
This section also reads as a Nintendo Nonogram history lesson. I'm not sure how relevant this is to Nonograms as such. I would suggest a re-write of this section.
Shieldfire (talk) 04:10, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: There are also dozens of Picross games available for PC on Steam. -- kazerniel (talk) 12:00, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Video games 

message: It is sometimes impossible to avoid guessing. For example, at the end of a puzzle if two rows and two columns each contain one unaccounted-for box there is no information to determine whether the boxes reside in the upper-left and lower-right cells or in the upper-right and lower-left cells. 
From the section Solution Techniques
This paragraph implies there are puzzles which are impossible to solve. During which one must guess the next step. I propose the elimination of this paragraph as a properly made Nonogram's solution can be deduced completely. There should be no guessing. WK 24.52.199.240 (talk)  — Preceding undated comment added 04:00, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Dan Bloch (talk) 06:45, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

text: If "a properly made Nonogram's solution can be deduced completely. There should be no guessing" is an actual, widely accepted rule, you're welcome to add it to the article - with proper references, of course. As the article stands, it appears that any black-and-white pixel image can be made into a nonogram. TroyVan (talk) 14:04, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solution Techniques: Remove ¶ on Impossible Solutions 

message: Jupiter is up to S7 in the Switch S series, but the Sega themed Picross for the Switch is named 'PICROSS S GENESIS & Master System edition' in the eShop, making it part of the S series. This should put the number of games in the S series at eight. This article says there are six. 2603:6011:3601:7E24:914C:D00A:6FED:297C (talk) 19:01, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of Picross S games for Switch