Talk:Karaite Judaism

message: I would like to suggest the addition of a section explaining the leadership aspect within KJ. Many people who have heard of KJ, but don't know much about it, assume that KJ has rabbis like Rabbinic Judaism. However, in KJ, a ḥaḵam fills some of the role in KJ that rabbis fill in RJ (although, how that is executed in each is a little different, which could be explained). Also, the role of the ḥazzan could also be elaborated. Both of these can be explained without too much detail as there are dedicated articles for both ḥaḵamîm and ḥazzanîm which give a wider picture to their roles. At this point, it might be a good place to mention the most significant differences between a rabbinic and a karaite bêt kĕnesset (lack of benches/chairs, who's in charge, et cætera).
On a more global level, there is the Moˁeṣet HaḤaḵamîm ("Council of Sages"), World Karaite Movement, and Karaite Jewish University which have an influence on the global Karaite community. The last of which (KJU), may be the only real inroute for non-Jews to officially convert to KJ outside of Israel (at least, in the eyes of the state of Israel). Who does the global community look to as an authority for the sighting of the New Crescent Moon (for marking the new months and new years) in The Land? Also, it could be explained to readers that there is no Jewish version of the Pope.
It seems there is enough material to fill out a decent section. What prompted me to think about this was the use of the title Ḥaḵam through the article, but (as far as I have noticed) no explanation (nor wikilink) for the lay reader. Placement of the section as early as possible in the article would be helpful (the history section, Russian subsection uses the term "ḥaḵam"), but may not be best placed before the history section (maybe immediately after, just before the beliefs section).
Thoughts, anyone?— al-Shimoni (talk) 20:23, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Your idea sounds OK to me, al-Shimoni. If you want to write it, I would say go ahead. I can try to help revise it after it is added. If we just link the first occurrence of Hakham in the article as it is, the section would not have to be too long, it seems to me? Regards, warshytalk 13:47, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Local and Global Leadership 

message: Both of these sections were already template tagged as violating WP guidelines concerning the See Also and External Links sections. The External Links section was particularly bad as it contained many blogs, minor sites in non-English, dead websites, websites not even related to the topic, etc. The See Also section had so many entries that it was subsectioned into various categories (admittedly, I was the one who organized it into sections a long time ago because it was a long mess). Many of the topics see-alsoed were already wikilinked in the body of the article. The only remaining hint of sectioning is three people who are secondary bulleted under the List of Karaite Jews bullet.Although not perfect, these two sections now better comply to WP's guidelines. — al-Shimoni (talk) 22:07, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There are some pictures from the heritage of the Turkish Karaite jewish community at this link. I know very little about WP copyright handling, so leave the source for whoever would be interested in adding pics to the article. --E4024 (talk) 18:32, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reduction of See Also and External Links sections 

message: For editors here interested in, and who focus on Karaite history more specifically, an entire revision of it is being undertaken in Wikipedia right now by an avowed priest of a supposed "Islamic Mosaist" sect. For those interested, the hub/nub of this new attemtp to completely rewrite Karaite history from a purely Islamic perspective is here. warshytalk 18:49, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Karaite Jewish sages like (Jeshua ben Judah and Jacob ben Reuben of Byzanteum) have always done their best to make sure the Khazar converts (Karaimlar) should never be confused with real Karaite Jews. It is bad enough that sites like this one http://karaism.org/ think all Karaites are Khazar Karaims isn't it? Why do you want to keep the distinction blurred? So that you can claim to be a Karaite Jew while being uncircumcised and believing in Jesus and Muhammad at the same time? Karaims and genuine Karaite Jews are very clearly distinct. Read John Kinnamos. Kaz 17:58, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: (Corrected wikilink above.) --E4024 (talk) 18:11, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you :) Kaz 18:27, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

text: Kaz, For what it's worth, it looks like the website at karaism.org is, thankfully, no more. Someone seems to have snatched it from the previous owner and put something more appropriate in its place. — al-Shimoni (talk) 01:35, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  A revision of Karaite history from a fresh partisan/sectarian perspective 

message: The section Karaites today" starts with about 100 families in Istanbul and later says "there are about 80 Karaites living in Istanbul". --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 02:47, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  how many Karaites in Istanbul? 

message: It seems to me that certain users are attempting to evangelise by regurgitating an oft-repeated mistranslation of the Russian word Evrei as Jews (Iudei) rather than Hebrews. Using this mantle, these missionaries are able to insert passages into articles like this one to convince the Karaite Jewish audience that the Karaims of Eastern Europe (Crimea, Russia etc.) were once Karaite Jews, rather than Karai-Tatars (meaning black tatars) Tengri worshippers who were converted to an early form of Unitarianism and who have been confused with Jews ever since. The intention obviously being to encourage Karaites Jews to read the works of Jesus and Muhammad and discover "Messianic Karaite Judaism". Warshy seems particularly interested in hiding the Karai-Tatar truth and pushing the Evrei = Jewish POV. But he is certainly not alone. The truth about the Karaims of Eastern Europe is that there was only a question on their identity after Catherine the Creat partitioned the Polish Lithuanian commonwealth and invaded Crimea. At this point the Karaims first came to the attention of the Russian authorities. While the Karaims had enjoyed officer-rank privileges under the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, the Russians were not sure at first how to apply the anti-Jewish legislation inherited from the Commonwealth, and the question of whether Karaims were meant to be included under the legislation arose. Within two years, Benjamin Aga had explained the history of the Karaims to Tzarina Catherine the Great, and the Officer-privileges for Karaims were enshrined in Russian law and not long after that the Imperial Russian Orthodox Church granted the Church of the Karaims official status with two diocese putting them on an equal status with Islam in the Empire. However, the Wiki-Missionaries present quite a different POV throughout all the wiki articles, that except for their Tatar identity the views of the Karaims of Eastern Europe may have had a legitimate place amidst the Karaite Jews. They present the Karaims' "Khazar" identity (which has always been well-accepted in Russian academic circles e.g. ) as a late 19th century fabrication apparently in the hopes that young Karaite Jews will find the references to "Christ and Muhammad" prior to these dates and consider that there might be some room for the teachings of Jesus within Karaite Judaism from a Unitarian stance. 
Thus it seems to me that the Russian and Crimean and Lithuanian sections of the article need to be reduced significantly to reflect the historical facts rather than a mixture of Missionary POV pushing and prejudicial fantasy. It seems it would be sufficient to have a section saying something like:
:Possible Karaite Jewish origins of the Karaims
:It has been suggested by X, Y, and Z that the Karaims of Eastern Europe (Crimea, Lithuania, Russia, etc.) may have originated with Karaite Jewish migrants in the Xth century. However, Karaims were not included under anti-Jewish legislation while they lived under the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, a position which Catherine the Great also adopted towards them after they were incorporated into her Empire. Whatever the truth about their origin may be, the majority of East European Karaims themselves regard themselves as Karai-Tatar in origin related to the Keraits rather than Karaites. The religion of the East European Karaims is syncretic in character incorporating some ideas from both Rabbinical and Karaite Judaism, as well as Christian, Islamic and pagan elements. For more information see Karaims (ethnic group).
It does not seem to me that there is a need to go into any more detail than that. Wikipedia should not be used as a podium to evangelise Jews by spreading misinformation from non-peer reviewed sources. Any thoughts from users other than those involved in promoting the confusion? Kaz 08:26, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Messianic Missionary Evangelisation? 

message: Here the story is still recorded with all the elements it needs to be judged correctly in an impartial historical perspective. Here you are not going to be allowed to continue this campaign of historical falsifications, lies, and forgeries. You have established somewhere else, for the time being, that your fringe sect does not belong to Karaism. Your concerted campaing of religious lies and falsifications do not belong in Wikipedia at all, and they will be eventually purged. But here you beware. Nothing here is going to be changed without proper discussion first. No one reacted to your previous posts here, but now you have crossed all lines. warshytalk 16:35, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  This territory is off for lies and forgeries 

message: :Nice Straw man Ad hominem attack there Mr Missionary. Tell me which of the requests for citation which you are trying to remove is a forgery of lies? How is my removal of dead links from your self-published website (which you are trying to re-insert) a campaign of historical falsifications? Kaz 18:15, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced Unreferenced POV Original Research 

message: Issue of EL has come up again in recent edits. I have reduced the ELs down, again, to make them further in compliance with Wikipedia guidelines on External Links.
In truth, all the current links violate the Wikipedia guidelines, although the Faith Strengthened link is probably to closest to being in full compliance. I have kept that link as well as the organization links even though the organization links fail EL guidelines. There is an exception that could have applied to the organization links which would have made them pass the guidelines (ie, being an official website of the topic), however, this exception is only applicable if it is the official website of the topic mentioned (ie, the website of the one-and-only governing body of the topic, or the person who is the topic). Since Karaite Judaism is not a cult, and does not have an official body dictating what to believe and who is a member (such as the Catholic Church, The Latter-Day Saints church, or the Church of Scientology), Karaite Judaism does not have an "Official Site". The organization EL are the next best thing, but that is not a loophole in the WP guidelines (so, basically, I'm ignoring strict compliance with the guidelines, here). Most of the links that were removed fall into what WP considers the "personal website" category, although they also violated other criteria.
The UKJ website would also be frowned upon by the guidelines because it is primarily (overwhelmingly) in Hebrew. I have added the Hebrew link icon, as guided by the WP guidelines, and changed the link destination to point to the one main page that is in English on the website (it is basically an English homepage for the site, although the rest of the site is in Hebrew). However, if the UKJ website changes its content management system, that link may become a 404, and will need to be updated.
A non-WP comment (although, could be WP-related indirectly) to Melech b.Y, if you are reading this, I would suggest that the WAK buy a domain name — using a Google Sites address does not help the WAK in looking "official" on the web (domains are only 10 $/year from GoDaddy, I would even be willing to host the WAK's site on my servers if Google doesn't provide DNS/domain-pointing to their Sites customers pages). Also, the WAK site may violate bias guidelines for external links (ie, the repeated strongly-worded monologues against UKJ, WKM, and KJU; although, this is an subjective assessment). Also, apologies for cutting your KI site's external link.— al-Shimoni (talk) 09:03, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links issues, again 

message: The article mentions that there are about 50 thousand karaites around today but only gives one source. Is this enough for such an important bit of information?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.87.230 (talk) 06:17, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that would depend on whether or not there is a credible reason to believe that the source is wrong. Do you have a source that is as good or better that gives a different number? Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 07:58, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Seems like a reasonable change to me, and you don't have to ask permission. Go for it! Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 03:01, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  50 thousand??! 

message: "...in the view of Karaites, many traditions and customs are kept that are in contradiction with those expressed in the Torah," in reference to the Talmud and the writings of the Rabbis.  No citation or example is given.  An example would be helpful. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 21:22, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: In case of contradiction, the written law takes precedence over the oral law. See, for example, Eduyot 4:11; also, secondary sources: Promising Justice: Derrida with Jewish Jurisprudence A Hirvonen - Law and Critique, 2001 - Springer "Thus, those commandments (mitzvot) that come directly from the Torah (de'oraita) and are biblical, are a superior authority to those rabbinic ones which do not come from it (de'rabbanan). The de'oraita ... ", http://www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm#Differences. Anecdotally, I've heard a Chasid saying that mitzvot derabanan are to be taken as more authoritative because the Talmud is more strict (or "chamur" חָמוּר); that confusion of his must have arisen from the Rabbinic ruling on cases of doubt (or "safek" סָפֵק). Someone else, particularly a Karaite, may disagree, and I would be happy to read the alternative view. Cheers! 213.109.230.96 (talk) 00:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  rabbinic beliefs exalted over Torah? 

message: This is all typical Christian Missionary tactics to slowly introduce Jesus into Judaism.  Anyone who uses a prayer of Jesus is obviously his follower. Isn't that fairly obvious to everyone? Because of that, the so-called Russian "Karaites" who use the prayer of Jesus can not be considered Jews. These "Subbotniks" are not circumcised  and they are not Jews.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.71.129.210 (talk) 19:09, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Christian Missionaries slowly changing hegemony of Karaites on Wikipedia

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110819065046/http://karaite-korner.org/yhwh_2.pdf to http://karaite-korner.org/yhwh_2.pdf
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081011151023/http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/103393.html to http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/103393.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I mention this with some trepidation, but István Deák says this in his book "Europe on Trial":
:Even practicing Jews of the so-called Karaite sect were allowed to serve in the Waffen SS after Himmler had been persuaded by a Jewish rabbi that the Karaites were racially Turkish and not Semitic.
I haven't found a further citation for this, so perhaps he is in error. Thomas Peardew (talk) 16:55, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The Russian government in the Nineteenth Century in a series of steps ended up categorising the Crimean and Eastern European Karaites as non-Jews.  (See Karaite Separatism in Nineteenth-Century Russia, by Philip E Miller.) The German government of 1933-45 accepted this.-- Toddy1 (talk) 02:43, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Toddy1. Deák's book is an interesting study of the forces leading various WWII ethnic/national/religious groups either to collaborate or resist - or, sometimes, both. Thomas Peardew (talk) 06:46, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  World War II 

message: While citations have been given, for the number of adherents and their locations, I'm not sure that 2 people (or really anything under ~500) counts as a "significant population". In my view, it's an excessive amount of detail.  Not only are such small populations not really noteworthy of mention in an encyclopedia, the fact that such specific and small numbers are mentioned leaves the article open for having to be constantly monitored, fact-checked, and edited as individuals move, die, convert, etc. Trumblej1986 (talk) 20:48, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, you should delete those. Jayjg (talk) 13:18, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. But, just in case someone wants the sources I removed,  I'm appending them here.
| region5 = 
| pop5 = 346
| ref5 = 
| region6 = 
| pop6 = 241–310
| ref6 = 
| region7 = 
| pop7 = 231
| ref7 =
| region8 = 
| pop8 = 205
| ref8 = 
| region9 = 
| pop9 = 20
| ref9 = 
| region10 = 
| pop10 = 4
| ref10 = 
| region11 = 
| pop11 = 2
| ref11 = 
-Trumblej1986 (talk) 19:15, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Countries with "significant populations" 

message: ,
If that original research anecdote based on a 16th century rabbinical (responsa), not historiographical source, is to stay, I would recommend you look at the following reliable historiographical source, to see if it mentions anything about the Ramba"m's relationship to the Karaites, according to the Radba"z:
*- Goldman, Israel M., The Life and Times of Rabbi David ibn Abi Zimra: A Social, Economic and Cultural Study of Jewish Life in the Ottoman Empire in the Fifteenth and Sixteenth Centuries as Reflected in the Responsa of the RDB"Z, New York, Jewish Theological Seminary, 1970.
Since this seems to be one of your favorite primary sources about ancient and medieval Jewish history, it is time you start getting acquainted with modern reliable historiographical sources, about this particular rabbinical figure. As it stands, that sub-section is just an anecdote based on oirginal research. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 17:00, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Our job here, as editors, is to expand knowledge. We add to articles wherever the addition can assist others in better understanding any given subject. This is my first edit on the Karaites, although there is much more to say about them. Why do you call a simple citation or quote taken from a 16th-century author about the Karaites a violation of Original Research? Perhaps you have misunderstood when there is actually a violation of "original research." Furthermore, the citation is not even a "Primary Source," but a "Secondary Source" which speaks about an event that happened in the days of a 13th-century Rabbi. Still, even if it were a Primary Source, we are occasionally permitted to cite Primary Sources when used carefully. If you have any questions about the source, you may wish to refer your concerns to WP:RfC. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 19:18, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: warshy, shalom. The source is terse and it does not mention any date, but only places the event in the time of Rabbi Abraham ben Maimonides. He writes explicitly that they "in one day" all returned to rabbinic Judaism, and he adds that Rabbi Abraham ben Maimonides "was not reluctant to receive them," meaning to say that he took the position of his father Maimonides who ruled that whenever a Karaite returns to Judaism, there is no need for him to undergo a conversion, but we simply receive him (see Responsa of Maimonides, responsum # 351 and Maimonides' Mishne Torah, Hil. Mamrim 3:2-3, where Maimonides writes: "... but the children of these people who are in error, and their offspring whose fathers had led them astray and were born [in such a state], whether the Karaites who were raised on such an opinion, lo! he is as a child that was held captive among them and was raised that way, and [therefore] is not motivated to uphold the ways of the mitzvot, since he is like one that has been constrained against his will. [...], such as those whom we said still maintain the ways of their Karaite fathers who have erred. Therefore, it is fitting to bring them back to repentance, and to draw them back with conciliatory words, until they have returned to the full-force of the Torah" END QUOTE). As for Egypt "being a bastion" for Karaites, although there were other places as well, I will provide a source. The Hebrew article here, item # 8, by Dr. Menachem Zucker, says that they were principally found in Babylonia and Egypt throughout all times, but I can find a better source, I'm sure. If others here agree that the addition is inappropriate, I see no problems with removing it. Until then, there is no need to remove it, as it adds a certain scope and dimension to this article. Perhaps though it can be slightly reworded. In my view, it is important to note how that, both, Maimonides and his son, Rabbi Abraham (rabbinic stalwarts), saw the Karaite movement and what, precisely, they had to say about it. Again, if you strongly feel that this addition is inappropriate where it is currently, perhaps we can agree to have it placed in a different section, or perhaps even ask the opinion of a broader Wikipedia audience through a RfC. I'm all for a consensus here. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 05:50, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

text: One more thing: For those who do not have access to Maimonides' Questions & Responsa, or who may not read Hebrew, the gist of the aforementioned responsum revolves around a Karaite woman whose husband thought she was legally divorced by him, by virtue of her signing a waiver that she forfeits the monies her husband vowed to give her after dissolving their marriage. Maimonides, in his responsum, makes it clear that Karaite weddings are valid under Jewish law and halacha, but their divorce procedures are invalid under Jewish law and halacha, until the husband writes his wife a written ğeṭ (bill of divorce) and gives it to her, in accordance with rabbinic law.Davidbena (talk) 06:11, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

text: Let me take this opportunity to wish you a Shana Tova (Happy New Year).Davidbena (talk) 06:36, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Shalom Davidbena. Thank you for your answers and for all the improvements you have done so far to the main article since. Welcome to the editing of the Karaite Judaism area on WP. Thank you for the improvements you've added to the Jacob Qirquisani article also. As for the sub-section here, I think you provided some answers to my questions and you added a source about Karaites in Egypt, which is good. The sub-section is still not quite a full sub-section about Karaism in Egypt, but it is OK for the time being. Shana Tova to you too, thank you, Shalom. warshy (¥¥) 16:16, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karaites in Egypt in the 13th century - historiographical source suggestion 

message: Karaites in the Russian Empire:  "The leaders, hearing that, devised a ruse by which they could be freed of the oppressive laws"  The word 'ruse' is not neutral, and does not appear in the linked Jewish Encyclopedia article.--2607:FEA8:D5DF:F945:5C78:5149:5F14:2542 (talk) 14:46, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not required to quote exactly from sources.  It is quite OK to paraphrase, which is what the sentence above does. Toddy1 (talk) 15:43, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "ruse" 

message: While reading this article I noticed that note b, reading "This oral law employs the methods of remez (implication or clue), drash (interpretation, exegesis), and sod (deep, hidden meaning, identified with the Qabbalah)." links to the Hermetic Qabbalah page.  Given that this note is in reference to Rabbinic Judaism, I wondered if linking to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah would be more correct? Please disregard if I'm incorrect. I do not know very much about the subject, which is why I was reading this article (to learn) and this note stood out to me as a possible error.
NonyaSerdo (talk) 15:18, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for catching it and for the note. These are just WP previously setup redirects. For some reason Qabbalah goes to the Hermetic type. I just changed the spelling to "Kabbalah" and now the link links correctly to the main Kabbalah page, as it should. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 19:03, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference to Hermitc Qabbalah in note b - should it be to Kabbalah? 

message: citation KARAITES AND KARAISM - JewishEncyclopedia.com states: "follow the Bible to the exclusion of rabbinical traditions and laws." This 'BIble' - referring to exclusively the Torah sections or entire Tanakh? The wikipedia says 'Torah'. Unsolicited claim FatalSubjectivities (talk) 14:10, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the entire TaNaKh. Lasker's Karaism and Yosef' Yaron's Introduction to Karaite Judaism cover this. 47.196.236.103 (talk) 03:44, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious-discuss: "[[Torah]]"  or the entire [[Tanakh]]? 

message: Reexamine his claim that Karaites were a significant part of the Jewish population. What numbers does he give? Where did he get them? I think examination will show his source, if any, is as tendentious and self-aggrandizing as the claim without numbers. The very existence of Prophets shows interpretation of Torah, and the article itself shows that Karaites _interpret_ Torah instead of living by its literal meaning. What's more, "literal meaning" is the same false claim as "literal translation". Jacobs has to be very naive not to understand that. 
100.15.117.34 (talk) 11:24, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jacobs as a source