Talk:List of pharaohs

message: How accurate are the years and lengths listed for the reigns and lives of these pharoahs?  How can we be sure Pepi II lived 100 years and reigned for 94?  I find it doubtful that in the ancient world someone could live to 100 years old (not sayin impossible, just saying doubtful).  It seems likely that there could have been some exaggeration on the part of the people who created these lists, if indeed it was one group of people.  How many sources show him to have lived and reigned this long, and do those sources each stem from an original source that can confirm without question his reign?
If I'm taking this information wrongly then forgive me.  I don't whether this information is all presumptive and therefore flexible or whether it is intended to be accurate.  Could someone straighten the issue out or at least source it maybe?
:Although it does seem odd that someone could live for 100 years in the ancient world, the three longest reigning kings in recorded history all ruled in the third millenium BC, and that added to some other textual references to extremely old age means that somthing is likely up. However, you are partially right; there is another thesis saying he lived for only 64 years or so. However, many (if not most) egyptologists consistantly give him 94 years of reign, and as long as we have the citations for it, it can stand in wikipedia. Thanatosimii 22:56, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pepi? 

message: A few questions:
- Are there gaps in the separate kinglists of protodynastic Upper and Lower Egypt, or do we have complete lists? 
- The Conventional Egyptian chronology page lists more protodynastic kings than this page.  Are there disagreements as to whether or not certain names represent the same king?
- Are Narmer and Hor-Aha the same person?
It has been said that Narmer is Menes (a name he took when he created the Pharaoh in Year 350).  The Scorpion king may easily be Ptah as the planet Mars is Damuzi and turns back into the Scorpion on the day Venus is reborn. This poem is from Gilgamesh who talked to Noah before Noah died and before the Pharoah was created. Gilgamesh is not Nimrod as some say, because Gilgamesh fears death from old age (like Peleg does) and Nimrod does not fear it, (Moslems say Nimrod ruled/lived 500). Yet the Tau/Ptah/Damuzi/Tamuz which is the planet Mars has been equated with Nimrod and so the poem by Gilgamesh is wrongly claimed to equate Nimrod and Gilgamesh both as The Scorpion King. Acknowledging the scorpion coming from Gilgamesh's poem as being Mars/Damuzi/Tamuz then allows Narmer to exist and become Menes; but another Scorpion Mars at venus rebirth does not occur until king Amizaduga long after the death of Narmer-Menes. Not surprisingly then, Amizaduga has also been claimed to be Nimrod. Narmer died in Abydos Egypt (the abyss) creating the legend of the devil ruling the abyss of the dead; so it is not difficult to see that the Narmer Palette of Abydos is potentially the burial of Nimrod (traditionally at age 500) in the names of Narmer and Menes. (Christian 52 years for Nimrod comes from Mars units of 52 years of 360 days. Ussher retaining 2009bc for Marduk as Nimrod which reduces Septuagint post-Flood time doesnt allow a 500-year Nimrod from 2509-2009bc so that the Moslem tradition of his 500 years is rejected by the Catholic world and he is claimed as king for only 52 years.) But 500 years allows Narmer to move from Babel to Nineveh to Egypt. (Do not delete this; obviously anyone who doesnt beleive in great longevity has not done the tests of DNA molecules with carbon-14 atoms in it causing cellular deterioration when they turn back into nitrogen.)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.144.71.174 (talk) 05:34, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that in upper Egypt the pharaohs were A then finger snail then fish (who I suppose is represented by a tilapia so I call him Jent/Jen) then Pen-abu then Ba (stork) and finally Ka (bull). Then there’s dynatsy 0 which goes Scorpion I then Double falcon (maybe) then shendjw then Iry hor then Sekhen and finally Scorpion II. In lower egypt it’s Hedju then ny then ni-nieth then hat hor then pu then seka then khayu then tiu then tesh then neheb then wazner then mekh then a (not the same a as the one of upper Egypt) then Double flacon and finally Washi. The pharaohs you gave for upper Egypt while some I recognize not so much for Oryx, shell Ka II (bull II) and others. Emmanuelbruh (talk) 02:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protodynastic ("Dynasty 0") 

message: These are generally accurate, but not specific enough.  The dates I put in for these two dynasties were not original research; I was citing them from other Wikipedia articles that used used astronomical events to anchor an absolute chronology.  These articles cited their sources.  Additionally, Shaw has Shoshenq III reigning after Takelot II, but the contemoraneity of these two kings is pretty certain, see Takelot II.  Likewise, the articles on Piye, Shabaka, and Shebitku have more specific reignal years.  Shaw's dates for Shabaka's death and Shebitku's accession appear to be about five years off.
Is it all right if I re-enter these dates?
--Rob117 16:33, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  22nd and 25th dynasties (Shaw dates) 

message: I would suggest that we should not simply leave these as they are.  They provide good approximate guidelines from which to start, but they are not exact dates.  There are more specific chronologies that can be implemented for certain dynasties (Dynasties 11, 12, 18, and 22-25 especially).--Rob117 02:28, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oxford dates 

message: In the moment the dates of the 13th Dynasty do not fit with the dates of the 12th Dynasty. There is in the moment a gap of 4 years between the last ruler of the 12th and the first ruler of the 13th Dynasty. I do not have the Oxford dates and I do not have any strong opions regarding certain dates, because we do not know them for sure. However, somebody might solve this problem. Udimu 23:27, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oxford dates 2 

message: For some reason, we have several kings (Djehuti, Mentuhotep VI, Nebiryerawet (Nebiriau) I & II and Seuserenre Bebiankh) belonging to both dynasties, with different dates implied.
Also, there needs to be some uniformity as to whether Intef or Antef is the correct spelling of the names of the kings of the Seventeenth. Theelf29 10:03, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sixteenth and Seventeenth Dynasties 

message: Can anyone provide a source for this line of rulers? There appear to be numerous duplications and the Ninth Dynasty's "Menethoupe I" is, I fancy, Metuhotep I Tepy-a, normally placed at the beginning of the Eleventh Dynasty. Theelf29 10:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ninth Dynasty 

message: Stuck Ankhmachis and Harmachis in the middle of the Ptlomomies, Just like Kababash in the 31st.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericl (talk • contribs) 18:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 34th Dynasty 

message: How can you tell of Hatshepsut in Thutmose III and not tell us about her successful reign?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.0.80.131 (talk) 16:29, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eighteenth Dynasty 

message: This needs sorting. 2613–2589 give 24 years, while our article says the Red Pyramid was built in the 30th year of his reign. I'm trying to get an article by Stadelman that might help. Of course, if we change his dates, that rather messes up the rest! Dougweller (talk) 21:14, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sneferu 

message: "Believed to have created the Sphinx at Giza as a monument for his deceased father."
Is this commonly accepted? What is the source for this?213.39.222.158 (talk) 07:26, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Djedefra built the Sphinx? 

message: The claim that Israel is mentioned on the walls in Karnak is incorrect. The problem with the reference is that it's a PBS documentary (which is not a good academic source). In the literature there is mention of an inscription of some people who may correspond to the ones mentioned in the Merneptah Stela, but the name Israel is not used. See for instance  a page from Biblical peoples and ethnicity: an archaeological study of Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, and early Israel, 1300-1100 B.C.E. by Ann E. Killebrew.
The quote that Hatshepsut started a great many building projects is a bit of a misstatement as well. She is of course known for the temple at Deir el-Bahari, but other than that she is not a really prolific builder (like for instance Ramesses II). I'm not sure why we would need to include some of these things in the list of Pharaohs? Seems a bit too much detail? --AnnekeBart (talk) 18:53, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tuthmosis III and Hatshepsut 

message: Weren't there over 20 Pharaohs named Rameses? Also, what does the name  mean?
--Tophthemetalbender (talk) 16:15, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There were eleven pharaohs named Ramesses. They were (appropriately) named Ramesses I, Ramesses II, ..., Ramesses XI. See the 19th and 20th dynasties on the page. The name means something like "Re has made him" --AnnekeBart (talk) 16:24, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ramesses 

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thread_title: File:BattleofIssus333BC-mosaic-detail1.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: I think this is something interesting to add!--Narayan (talk) 21:01, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: this pharaoh was already known before; but not from contemporary sources. The new find is already included in the article: Senakhtenre Tao I. bw -- Udimu (talk) 09:37, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  new pharaoh name 

message: I would like to draw the attention of the various editors to the series of edits made by ‎121.221.75.187 . The edits are all highly religious in nature and refer to unreferenced (and highly suspect) theories such as the fact that Joseph, aged 130, interpreted the dreams of Senusret III. I know the bible and I believe discussions of the connections between the bible and pharaohs are interesting but should not take place on this page, plus it is not even a discussion in this case.  Iry-Hor (talk) 13:54, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I thought I'd reverted them. Maybe having 150 tabs open in Firefox is a bad idea. I'd opened the history to compare the IP's edits with the earlier version but had left that as something to do later, but later was just now, rather than several hours ago  when I saw them. Dougweller (talk) 17:32, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Lol 150 tabs ? I did not even know it was both humanely and "computerly" possible. Iry-Hor (talk) 17:45, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Firefox and 8gb of ram. Dougweller (talk) 19:20, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religious edits

message: The comment on Djedefre is : "Before being demolished by the Romans, according to a documentary aired by the History Channel, the pyramid may actually have been the highest ever built (about 20 meters taller than the Great Pyramid of Giza although this is due to its elevated location rather than the size from base to tip)." This is evidently complete BS and should consequently be removed or at least moved to the article on Djedefre. In any case : 1) this is in blatent contradiction to Djedefre short reign, 2) The amount of work required to destroy a pyramid is as fantastic as that to build it (see the 13th century attempt on the pyramid of Khufu) and we have no trace the romans destroyed a pyramid; 3) History channel is way down in quality now...
At the opposite I can believe that Djedefre started work on his pyramid and that it may have been initially planned as something larger than his father's but it is known that his pyramid never went past the very early stages of work, owing to Djedefre short reign. Iry-Hor (talk) 16:35, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Djedefre 

message: Slightly confused as when I click on the link for Pharoah Djedefptah it comes up with a page for Thampthis who is listed as the next pharoah. Also, there is a page on Wiki for a Pharoah Nitocris (End of 6th Dynasty), who doesn't appear on this list. I might be wrong but thanks anyway,
Thenextpm (talk) 20:37, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thampthis and Nitocris 

message: Does Bithiah have a place in this article? If not, where is the best place for her (Egyptian Princesses)? Twillisjr (talk) 14:44, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Since she was not a pharaoh, she doesn't belong in this article. What do you mean with best place for her? She is already quite well linked too within Wikipedia. See  Garion96 (talk) 16:07, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

text: there is no list for Ancient Egyptian princesses and I wonder whether such list would make any sense. There is hardly such list in research literature. I think the article at the moment is fine. -- Udimu (talk) 11:02, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bithiah 

message: I propose the addition of cartouches of each Pharao.
RScheiber (talk) 09:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of [[Cartouche (hieroglyph)|cartouches]] to Pharao names 

message: Beginning of the reign of Nyuserre Ini should probably be at 2448 BC. This date needs to be changed both in his article and in the list. Y-barton (talk) 22:38, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I meant 2458 BC, the end of the rule of Neferefre, who precedes him. -- Y-barton (talk) 05:00, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beginning of the reign of Nyuserre Ini 

message: "Last Monarch" is a problem and the term "native" also. The last native king was Ramesses XI. All the following kings were either Libyans, Nubians, Libyans again, Persians, Libyans again, Persians again, Macedonians, Romans, Persians again etc. The last actual king was dethroned by Nasser. 82.16.170.193 (talk) 02:06, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last Monarch 

message: I think the information on what king lists each Pharaoh is found on would be very useful.Astronut25 (talk) 02:14, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request Column "King List Entries" be added 

message: Doesn't Wikipedia have date formatting standards? Should it be BC or BCE? 73.154.165.60 (talk) 01:12, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wikipedia only sort of has a date formatting standard. The relevant part of the style guide is WP:ERA. To sum it up, an article can use either BC/AD or BCE/CE, as long as it consistently sticks to one style. Changing the style requires a discussion of the reasons why. In some topic areas there may be a loose consensus to use only one style or the other; for example, I think WikiProject Judaism prefers BCE/CE, to avoid the impression of Christian bias. WikiProject Ancient Egypt has never chosen one style or the other. The main ancient Egypt article uses BC/AD, and so do many or most of our other articles, including this one, but some were created with BCE/CE and have stayed that way. A. Parrot (talk) 01:27, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  BC or BCE? 

message: Why are the predynastic rulers of Dynasty 0 under the Early Dynastic Period? That's a contradiction in terms, and also the Early Dynastic Period page explicitly states that it begins with the First Dynasty.
Furthermore, why distinguish between Dynasty 0 and Dynasty 00? Dynasty 00 contains Upper Egypt rulers in Naqada III, and another name for Naqada III is Dynasty 0 (see link), and all the Dynasty 0 rulers except Crocodile were Upper Egypt rulers, and Crocodile may have reigned from Tarkhan of Lower Egypt but this is not certain. So wouldn't a more appropriate distinction be made between Lower Egypt rulers, Upper Egypt rulers, and Crocodile in his own category (or under Lower Egypt but with a caviat), all under the Predynastic period? Retardednamingpolicy (talk) 22:42, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reason for Dynasty 0 and Dynasty 00 split? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hi guys,
It seems we've skipped over the reign of Neferneferuaten (probably Nefertiti or Meritaten) between Smenkhare and Tutankhamun. Don't people think we should include her (especially since the dates of Smenkhare's reign are fuzzy to begin with)? 
--Neddy1234 (talk) 02:00, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neferneferuaten 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: you see the phrase in List_of_pharaohs#Enigmatic_kings,_only_attested_in_Lower_Nubia
How is a possible Pharaoh "attested"? Greg Dahlen (talk) 12:32, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: "Attested" usually means archaeologically attested, meaning that king is most likely confirmed as really existing or reigning there by an archaeological find from the time, mentioning his name. When we have much later king lists, that mention a king whose name was never confirmed in archaeology, in some cases because the later lists were probably tampered with or unreliable, we call that king "unattested". 'Only attested in Lower Nubia' means there is archaeological evidence of a real past king, but only found in Lower Nubia. 71.246.149.252 (talk) 12:45, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: "Attested", used in this sense, is a bit of archaeological jargon that I'd like to remove from Wikipedia articles, because this isn't the first time I've seen a layperson react to it with bafflement. The reason it sticks around, though, is that it's shorter than the phrases that convey the same meaning. A. Parrot (talk) 03:23, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you give a couple of examples (of those phrases)?  And how is “attested” different in archaeology? (The para above seems a normal use to me.). Is “confirmed” good enough for the article? MBG02 (talk) 14:14, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, I'm just more familiar with seeing "attest" in contexts like "…as I can attest from personal experience" or "The iridium layer attests that a meteor struck Earth". For something to be attested, as in "Narmer is attested throughout the Nile Delta" or "Osiris is first attested in the middle of the Fifth Dynasty", feels a little more opaque and technical. But those sentences are shorter than "Artifacts bearing Narmer's name are found throughout the Nile Delta" or similar. In this specific case, "Enigmatic kings whose name is only found in Lower Nubia" would be the clearest way of wording the section heading but would be cumbersomely long for a heading. A. Parrot (talk) 05:07, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

text: I oppose removal of the word "attested", usage of which is standard in archaeology, history, and related fields. "Confirmed" (meaning there is evidence rising to the level of proof) is stronger than and does not mean the same thing as "attested" (meaning there is evidence). —Lowellian (reply) 19:11, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: What does the phrase "only attested in Lower Nubia" mean? How are pharaohs "attested"?

message: The dates between 10th dinasty and 11th there is somthing wrong with it how the 10th dinasty start at 2130 bc and end at 2040 bc and the 11th start at 2134 and end at 1991 i think the eleventh should logicly start at the end of the 10th so at 2040 Myresearchmm (talk) 18:39, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: During the intermediate periods, there were often rival dynasties controlling different parts of Egypt. The Tenth and Eleventh Dynasties overlap because the Eleventh Dynasty established itself in Thebes while the Tenth Dynasty still dominated the north, before the Eleventh Dynasty gained control of the entire country (and event that marks the beginning of the Middle Kingdom). A. Parrot (talk) 18:57, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Error 

message: I was comparing 2 images of the Palermo Stone, and it appears there are five destroyed pharoah names left of Mekh (number 8), although this list currently only mentions a singular partially destroyed "[...]a" left of Mekh, number 9 on the image. Should we mention these other pharaohs too?
Koopinator (talk) 09:49, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  5 pharaohs left of [[Mekh]] on the Palermo Stone 

message: The articles for many of the Predynastic rulers contain very little information and rely on the same sources. Might it be worthwhile to merge these into a general article about Predynastic rulers? This may not be the place to bring up such a proposition, but this may be something worth discussing.  R23$94ACQ3R (talk) 00:44, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pages about Predynastic Kings 

message: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba_(pharaoh)
I feel like this Pharaoh should be added, however due to his unknown exact Dynasty grouping I'm unsure on how to go about this. Spooky Polyhedron (talk) 06:44, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pharaoh Ba 

message: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Dynasty_of_Egypt
After analyzing this its come to my attention that their are many missing names on this list attributed to the second intermediate period.
Pharaohs like Pepi III and many others are not present on this list.
Please not some names are already on the list. Spooky Polyhedron (talk) 06:56, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Many missing names (needs work) 

message: Hi, I'd like to see if there was a source on the throne names of Cleopatra VII etc. as I did a quick google search and I couldn't find any results for "Weretnebetneferu Akhetzeh" beyond this wiki page and the websites that skim from it. It, along with a number of other names seem to be added by user Zhomron, and I'm just wondering what his source is for these names so they could be verified by users of this cite. Many thanks! NebuchadnezzarHammurabi (talk) 07:56, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I just noticed the same thing. It's not even clear to me what a "throne name" is supposed to be, as distinct from the ruling name like "Cleopatra VII"? Worth noting that the user Zhomron is banned on Wikipedia, so there's a very good chance this was vandalism. They made a lot of edits to this page, so someone with more knowledgeable and care than me might want to go through his edits looking for vandalism. 2A00:23C4:6B13:D801:FD21:CB65:A46D:BCAB (talk) 21:58, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: For posterity: I do believe they are, instead of "throne name" and "personal name", the "Horus name" and Prenomen. This is attested to on this UCL site (see this example for Cleopatra VII: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/chronology/cleopatravii.html), which appears to have been created, at least in part, by Egyptologist Wolfram Grajetzki. Therefore, the mystery appears to be solved. I'll look into it further and attempt to make this clearer in the article in the coming days. NebuchadnezzarHammurabi (talk) 13:15, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Horus Name", Prenomen/Throne Name, and Nomen/Personal Name were three separate forms of the king's fivefold royal titulary, with the Horus name being an earlier form written inside of a serekh rather than a cartouche, which is what the Prenomen and Nomen were written in. Use and importance of the Horus name and Prenomen varied depending on the period, as many earlier kings didn't have Prenomens but did have Horus Names and some kings (especially during the Intermediate Periods) had documented Prenomens but no documented Horus Name.  Star11308 (talk) 12:45, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question on Throne Names 

message: I believe the reason the Pharaohs brains were removed is that they were people of great sorrow or led ugly lives that they or others did not want repeated. So they pulled their consciousness out of their bodies . 2604:3D08:E978:D700:D5C7:8E42:3C90:A8DC (talk) 05:02, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pharaohs Brains 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: The transliteration system used here seems to be fairly inconsistent (but this is Egyptology, so I'm not surprised) – cf. Ra vs. Re, User vs. Weser etc.Perhaps we should add the transliterations of the original Egyptian names, to make it more clear what the originals would have been (except maybe the Ptolemies and the Persians, who have names that aren't in Egyptian at all - but this could get inconsistent in the Late Period fast).  If anyone has a reputable source reconstructing names, I'm happpy to do the slogging myself.Zenzic-Eváristos (talk) 22:28, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transliterations 

message: Two websites (dictionary.sensagent.com and creationwiki.org) list a king Aba that reigned for 4 years and 2 m0nths. the websites king lists are almost identical (sensagent separates thamphthis from djedefpta for some reason). They both even list a lost king after him. 'Aba' and the unnamed king are both before merenre II and after nefer. Emmanuelbruh (talk) 01:08, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aba?