Talk:Baccarat

message: The use of the term 'punter' in the context of this game is highly inappropriate.
And why is that? It is a term commonly used for a player in a casino and it is at least kinder than saying "sucker." 67.130.101.194 (talk) 15:54, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Punters?

message: I was allways under the impression that baccarat cards were numberless and had a more "classy" look to them than regular playing cards.
: Oh really? LOL.
Is there any information regarding classic baccarat cards versus what is probably more of a "use whatever deck you can get your hands on" scenario?
:In North America, there are no special baccarat cards that I've ever seen. Must be a European thing. Realkyhick 08:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Some Las Vegas casinos do have special Baccarat cards, but the only thing "special" about them is normally that the word "Baccarat" appears under the casino's name and logo on the cardbacks.  Sometimes Baccarat cards are laminated paper while all other cards at a casino are plastic; this is to accommodate the predilection of Baccarat players for bending and tearing the cards.  Heather (talk) 16:39, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Baccarat Cards

message: This is not explained in the article. 81.158.0.23 15:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Scarne, the game was imported to France from the Italian game Baccara in 1490. But, I don't know of any source for "zero". Objective3000 (talk) 17:10, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: But Scarne is wrong. There is no real evidence that any game called Baccara existed in Italy in 1490 or any time before the 19th century. Several 20th century writers have claimed a 15th or 16th century origin for Baccara, but without any justification apart from the assertions of other recent writers. If you can find any authentic 18th century or earlier document that mentions Baccara as a card game I will be happy to be proved wrong. Pagat1703 (talk) 14:35, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The OED says the word is adopted from French and gives the oldest English ref at 1866. Which really doesn't really tell us if it originated in France or Italy. I'll ask a French expert if he has any info on the etymology. Objective3000 (talk) 15:21, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

text: Some additional stuff: . Nothing definitive. Objective3000 (talk) 15:48, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

text: A friend responds: "Every one of a considerable number of dictionaries and encyclopedias that I have, including the Grand Larousse Encyclopedique, say 'unknown origin.'  But they do seem to indicate that the game was imported to France from Italy." This is WP:OR, but lends credence to Scarne. Objective3000 (talk) 17:06, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

text: I looked further. The source for Baccara originating in Italy appears to be Firmin Didot’s Dictionnaire de la Conversation et de la lecture, written in the 19th Century. Baccara means little pitcher in a Sicilian dialect. I'll provide the source when I get some time. Objective3000 (talk) 18:49, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thierry Depaulis (card game historian) told me a few years ago (private communication) that 'baccara' was a Provençal word meaning 'bankrupt'. That is the only plausible etymology that I have come across. I will ask him if he has any further relevant discoveries or evidence. Pagat1703 (talk) 09:07, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I found a couple sources on the history and updated the article. The English source discusses the word at length. The word had several meanings, who knows which if any were a part of the etymology. Objective3000 (talk) 12:10, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately your sources are unreliable and out of date. There are absolutely no sources for card games utilizing modular arithmetic in the West before the appearance of Macao around 1800. On the other hand, card games similar to baccarat were described in China from the early 17th century and were well known in Korea and Japan during the 18th century. There is also one Indian game similar to the East Asian games but that has only been recorded recently. Scarne is extremely unreliable as he is not an actual scholar on the history of card games. For example, he received criticism from Michael Dummett over his handling of the history of poker which was basically sloppy plagiarism of Robert Frederick Foster's research. David Parlett believes baccarat originated from Macao but Macao's true origins are a mystery. The name suggests a Sino-Portuguese heritage but it may be Hungarian as claimed by the Meyers Konversations-Lexikon.--Countakeshi (talk) 10:01, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I realize Scarne was careless. But, I took the earlier sources to WP:RSN before using them here. Objective3000 (talk) 10:42, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: From the snippet in Google Books, the first source, The Academy (periodical), only proves the word exists not the card game (I would like to see more of this source). The second source is a tertiary source which doesn't cite its own sources. If baccarat, the card game, existed since the Renaissance, then there should be mention of it in legislation, game books, and diaries before the 19th century. I can provide secondary sources for Macao and the Asian games which should take precedence over tertiary sources.--Countakeshi (talk) 11:17, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The first source specifically calls it a game. The second source is a dictionary, and calls it a card game. Both refer to the origin in the 15th Century. I’m not aware of European legislation about games in the 15th Century.  Objective3000 (talk) 16:31, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The first source calls it a game but the author's sources are dictionaries that don't mention a game as far as I can see. The author simply looked for similar looking words which turn out to be outside the context of card games. The second source is a dictionary and dictionaries are tertiary sources. It also does not list its primary or secondary sources. Modern research should take precedence as more contemporary researchers have access to more primary and secondary sources (WP:RS AGE)--Countakeshi (talk) 17:30, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: No point in discussing this both here and at RSN. Also, when taking something to a noticeboard, you really should warn editors with whom you are discussing a subject. Objective3000 (talk) 17:52, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  What does the word "Baccarat" actually mean? 

message: I put in a bit about how the French name was made because I noticed that on many sites in English, they were incorrectly saying that it had something to do with trains or railways. This is just idiotic; the name was given when it was introduced in the 15th century, so there was no such thing as a train or a railway. One site was saying that "chemin de fer" literally means "railway" - this is incorrect. It translates as railway but it literally means "way of iron". When I searched through French sites, I quickly found that it got the name because the cards were put in an iron box.
Owen214 (talk) 05:27, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "Chemin" translates more accurately into "Path."  Thus, a "chemin de fer" would be an "iron path."  Hence the eventual usage to mean railway.  --LePhil (talk) 03:58, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no difference at all between 'iron path' and 'way of iron' Owen214 (talk) 12:57, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

text:  Well, at the very least, he didn't do well in high school French, having clearly confused "chemin" with "chemise."Marguerite de Navarre (talk) 05:43, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

text: The 'author' didn't say anything about shirt, the previous anonymous contributor just made that up. He gives a really good argument why chemin de fer shouldn't be translated 'railway' when referring to the card game. Zargulon (talk) 10:08, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  History and French name 

message: I'm of the opinion that the (only) link in the external links [sic] section is unimportant to the article.  It only describes one version of the game, and not significantly better than the article itself.  The link text itself also is overly commercialized fluff ("A great Site explaining Baccarat in simple clear language"). Cnj 03:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Link section. 

message: A new game has appeared in Sands and Venetian Macau (and it appears on a Macau government gambling statistics website). It is played as baccarat is with the same amount of cards but the rules are very different in terms of when a card is drawn and how tax is taken. I'm wondering if we need a new article or if it can fit in this article.DietEvil (talk) 17:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If it meets WP:V and WP:N, then it could be its own article, but if it is just acasino variation, then it probably just merits a couple sentences here, for now at least. 2005 (talk) 22:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added it below Mini-Baccarat and I'm sure the wording isn't terribly clear but I did the best I could. If anyone needs any clarification or wants to help re-write it, I more than welcome your help.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by DietEvil (talk • contribs) 04:17, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

text: This game is going to need references from at least 2 casinos. If the game is only played at one particular casino, then it should not be discussed or even mentioned here, as it would just be advertising.Owen214 (talk) 07:38, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Makccarat

message: "In baccarat chemin de fer and baccarat banque, by contrast, both players can make choices, which allows skill to play a large part."
This is, in my opinion, nonsense. The decision whether to take another card only occurs for the punter when he has a total of five. The banker has more options but the idea that the punter's demeanor would give away whether he had a decision or not assumes a childish foolishness on the part of that individual. I suppose it would be really skillful to hesitate and consider hitting a seven total, without ever intending to take another card, so your opponent would take no cards with a worse hand. 
I'm not saying there is no skill involved but compared to bridge, poker or even blackjack, it does not play a large part. I would edit out the word "large." 67.130.101.194 (talk) 16:01, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I think the word "large" is unnecessary. We don't need to get into the philosophical matter of whether there's more skill in baccarat than in Texas Hold'em. I think the original point of that sentence was to note that those varieties of baccarat include some matters of skill (unlike punto banco, which is strictly a game of chance--all moves are forced after you make your bet). The word "large" is unnecessary. So I nuked it. Whee! -- Narsil (talk) 20:49, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

text: The question of whether skill plays as large a part in any form of baccrat as it does in Holdem is not philosophical. It is mathematical and the answer is clear. Baccarat is a game for people to dress up fancy and donate money to casinos. And feel sophisticated. 65.79.173.135 (talk) 18:43, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Skill to play a LARGE part? 

message: The 2003 edition of "Hoyle's Official Rules of Card Games" spells the name "Baccara" rather than "Baccarat".  Further, it describes "Baccara a Deux Tableaux", which, as near as I can understand, is identical to the "Baccarat Banque" described in this article.
Does anyone know the source of the difference in spelling?  And should "a Deux Tableaux" be added as an alternate name for "Banque"?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.69.190.75 (talk) 22:44, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: 'Baccara' was a Provençal spelling - an old precursor to French. Who knows why Hoyle wrote it that way, but the book was written a long time ago and the consensus worldwide is to write it in its French spelling: Baccarat Owen214 (talk) 07:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baccara a Deux Tableaux 

message: How about a link to the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica article?  A simple citation can be made:
* 
Or the attractive poster shown can be used.  The template for the poster is best located at the top of the section.
— Bob Burkhardt (talk) 19:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  External link suggestion 

message: I think that after the explanation of the value assigned to each card, this section is written in unnecessarily complicated fashion.  I think that the basic idea is that for hands where the aggregate face value of the cards (represented by x) is less than 10, the value of one's hand is x, whereas if x is 10 or greater, the value of one's hand is x - 10.  In other words, I think it's pretty straightforward, but introducing modular mathematics terminology and accompanying equations make this section less helpful and user-friendly than it could be.  Marguerite de Navarre (talk) 06:22, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  16  Valuation of a Baccarat hand 

message: Reading the punto banco section (I haven't read the other varieties'), I don't see that it says which hand wins. It does say
:If either Player or Banker or both achieve a total of 8 or 9 at this stage, the coup is finished and the result is announced: Player win, a Banker win, or tie. If neither hand has eight or nine, the drawing rules are applied to determine whether Player should receive a third card. Then, based on the value of any card drawn to the player, the drawing rules are applied to determine whether the Banker should receive a third card. The coup is then finished, the outcome is announced and winning bets are paid out.
— but nothing there says which hand is the winner if one hand has eight or nine (in the first quoted sentence), or which  outcome is announced (in the last quoted sentence). This is a grave omission.—msh210℠ 17:19, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, never mind: I see now: it's in the lede: "three possible outcomes: 'player' (player has the higher score), 'banker,' and 'tie.'".—msh210℠ 17:35, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which hand wins? 

message: The section for "Chemin de Fer" says, "... if either has an eight or a nine, this is immediately announced and the hands are turned face-up and compared. If neither hand is an eight or nine..."
These statements seem to contradict each other based on the use of the word "has".  The first sentence implies if either card is an eight or a nine, then the clause is true; the second sentence implies if the score of the hand totals eight or nine, then the clause is true.
24.19.231.240 (talk) 01:37, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarity on scoring 

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thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on [[Baccarat (card game)]] 

message: I am aware of Parlett, the existence of the game in London and its possible origins in Hungary. But, all of this post dates the Italian game of Baccara brought to France in the 15th century. The Macao section would seem to contradict the lead. O3000 (talk) 17:31, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Macao 

message: The first image mentions the pallet but no further information is provided. The caption assumes the reader knows what a Baccarat pallet is, but some explanation of it's purpose is necessary. freshacconci (✉) 13:16, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, they're pretty much obsolete outside of James Bond movies or possibly chemin de fer in Monte Carlo. Probably should find a better image. O3000 (talk) 13:30, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

text: In the older forms, including chemin de fer, the tables are fairly large, larger than banco punto, so the croupier will use the pallet to pass the player cards to the bettor serving that role. Being that chemin de fer isn't all that popular of a version these days, being largely seen as an old fashioned version, it's pretty much an archaic throwback, but is still also associated with the game as a whole. oknazevad (talk) 17:16, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the pallet for? 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: moved. There is a consensus that the card game is the primary topic and that the commune should be at Baccarat, Meurthe-et-Moselle.(closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 (talk) 20:40, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, and it would have been eligible for WP:RMT, although now an RM is open and we should let it play out. 162 etc. (talk) 21:30, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 12 July 2021 

message: Looking at the history page, no less than 6 attempts (5 of them IPs, spread across both IPv4 and IPv6) from 1st through 10th of November 2023 of what I got the impression are likely the same spambot, have attempted to rampage the page by replacing random bits of text with casino fraud links. Its edits were understandably quickly undone (and the one registered account perma'd), but at this point I think it's suitable to consider limiting editing of the page to logged-in users only; or, if that's not possible, to autoconfirmed users. Dandelion Sprout (talk) 12:04, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It was temporarily semi-protected for a time as a result of that spate of spam, but that expired after a month and here's only been one spam attempt since then. As such, there's unlikely to be enough recent issues to semi-protect it again. oknazevad (talk) 18:02, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requesting the page be locked to logged-on users only due to frequent recent casino link spamming