Talk:Tafl games

message: I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of May 16, 2008, compares against the  six good article criteria:
:1. Well written?: Generally one idea per sentence. Minimal jargon. Standard grammar. Other MoS issues (notably foreign words in italics) are followed.
:2. Factually accurate?: Claims are referenced from reliable sources, gathered in footnotes (RS are explicit).
:3. Broad in coverage?: Absolutely thorough. All evidence is presented, all related games are covered, without digressing outside reasonable scope. Where evidence and/or sources are lacking, the article does not attempt to fill the gap (no OR here).
:4. Neutral point of view?: Alternative views of evidence are presented in best possible light without advocacy (NPOV clear).
:5. Article stability? There is no history of disputes over content, or even style.
:6. Images?: There are many clear illustrations that aid the reader in understanding the text. Arguably, more text could be provided, so sight impaired readers could hear descriptions of the pictures in an audio file of the article. Alastair Haines (talk) 07:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Successful [[Wikipedia:Good articles|good article]] nomination

message: Is this a complicated game or what?!  I think the rules need a little more work as I only got the vaguest idea of what goes on. charlieF 13:25 Mar 17, 2003 (UTC)
well my native tongue is not english,so that explains the trouble.. the actual rules are very simple, but I couldn't make them easier..
Hnefatafl is one of family of similar games... in fact, the text and picture currently in this article actually discuss Tablut.  Should this article perhaps be moved to "Tafl games"? Jeffhos 17:29, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The board set-up image shows 2:1 plus the king, so 73 pieces would be needed (48 defenders, 24 attackers, one king). Right?Jackrepenning (talk) 18:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Surely that must be "No piece may move directly..."? Jackrepenning (talk) 18:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Initial comments

message: I tagged this article Unreferenced because it has a lack of in-text citations and makes several remarkable claims. I'll try to find references where I can, when I have time, but I will need everyone's help getting this article cleaned up. Thx Wilhelm meis (talk) 16:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: "The following is one possible reconstruction of the rules of Tablut, staying as close to the original source as possible"
What was the "original source"? Please provide a citation. Wilhelm meis (talk) 21:43, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reconstruction

message: Indeed, [ˈtapʰl̥] is the Icelandic pronunciation, and as Icelandic is by all accounts the closest approximation we have to Old Norse, this is the best indication available as to how the word would have been pronounced by the Vikings who played the game. Is there a better suggestion of what standard we should use to indicate pronunciation? If anyone has contradictory information on how the word was pronounced in medieval Scandinavia, I'd love to see it. Wilhelm meis (talk) 03:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The correct pronunciation is provided by Robinson. Modern Icelandic is not the same thing as Old Norse, and especially not when pronunciation is concerned. Modern Icelandic has changed its pronunciation even more since Old Norse than Swedish and Norwegian have.--Berig (talk) 06:33, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

text: If you want confirmation about this, you should contact user:Haukurth who is an Icelander and who is very knowledgeable about Old Norse.--Berig (talk) 07:00, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Berig is right. In modern Icelandic it's a plosive but back in the day it must have been a fricative. Haukur (talk) 23:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation

message: I've outlined a possible method of simplifying the rules, and finding a compromise between the "official" rulesets interpreted through texts and some of the exceptions adapted along the way. I wonder if we could adjust these for inclusion in the article, or perhaps use them as groundwork for a more concise explaination of how the game functions. So without further ado:
*Tablut is played on a 9x9 grid, with the Swedes (white pieces / defenders) consisting of a king and eight guardsmen, and the Muscovites (black pieces / attackers) consisting of sixteen soldiers.
*The eight guardsmen (Swede forces) start on the eight squares adjoining the "konakis," (the center square, or king's castle) in the form of a cross; the sixteen attackers (Muscovite forces) start in T-shaped groups of four at the center of each side of the board. []
*The Swedish side moves first, and the game then proceeds by alternate moves. (this rule can be resolved to allow either side to move first)
*All pieces move orthogonally. (any number of squares horizontally or vertically, assuming the path is open) No piece may ever pass over another piece in its path. Only the king my occupy the center square (the konakis) or any of the cornering squares of the grid. The Swede and Muscovite forces may not occupy any territory belonging to the opposing side, as marked on the grid. []
*Optionally, dice may be rolled to determine the number of squares a piece may move at a time.
*An opponent piece is captured by out-flanking (sandwiching) it either horizontally or vertically with two pieces. ("custodial capture") [] The king is captured only when surrounded on all ends, or cornered. [] A piece is not automatically captured when moving itself within enemy flanks. A captured piece is removed from the board and is no longer active in the play.
*The Swedes win by locating their king to any of the four corner squares on the board; the Muscovites win by capturing the king.
68.209.235.149 (talk) 17:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Curious. Are these rules consistent with any modern interpretation in particular, that you would mind pointing out? This has been my standard play procedure, which I've opted in favor of by-the-book instructions. I feel the archaic interpretation of the game's rules presents too much imbalance, which leads me to believe they weren't interpreted very well. Of course, this is a game driven more by strategy than circumstance... 68.209.235.149 (talk) 01:07, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Tablut interpretation

message: I'm thinking about expanding the article a little bit to discuss relevant saga passages.  There are many important (although ambiguous) clues about how Hnefatafl was played in the Middle Ages, which I think would justify some discussion, but I don't want to get overly analytical or belabor the point.  The changes I am considering include pulling the saga references in >Hnefatafl and variants >Hnefatafl down to a new section titled Hnefatafl in Saga literature.  We may also eventually further expand the article to give some discussion to archaeological evidence as well.  The following are the results of my proposed changes to the Hnefatafl subsection and the new Hnefatafl in Saga literature section:
Hnefatafl and variants >Hnefatafl
Hnefatafl was a game played in medieval Scandinavia that was mentioned in the Sagas. Vikings considered skill at Hnefatafl to be a valuable attribute, and Jarl Rognvald Kali Kolsson famously proclaimed nine boasts recounted in the Orkneyinga saga, the first of which was skill at Tafl.[9] Other saga references have contributed to controversy over the possible use of dice in playing Hnefatafl.[10] The rules of the game were never explicitly recorded,[11] and only playing pieces and fragmentary boards are extant, so it is not known for sure how the game was played. If dice were in fact used, nothing has been recorded about how they were employed. Archaeological and literary sources indicate Hnefatafl may have been played on a 13×13 or an 11×11 board.[12] 
Hnefatafl in Saga literature
Hnefatafl was mentioned in several of the medieval sagas, including Orkneyinga saga, Friðþjófs saga, Hervarar saga, and others.  These three period treatments of Hnefatafl offer some important clues about the game, and while numerous other references to Hnefatafl or Tafl exist in saga literature, these are incidental.Helmfrid 2005, p.11.  In Orkeyinga saga, the notability of Hnefatafl is evident in the nine boasts of Jarl Rögnvald Kali Kolsson, who tops his list with skill at Tafl.Peterson 2005, Helmfrid 2005, p.11.  Original source: Rǫgnvaldr jarl kali Kolsson 1158, Orknøsk jarl og skjald Original text (Icelandic).  An English translation is prominent in the Viking Answer Lady's King's Table article.  In Friðþjófs saga, a conversation over a game of Hnefatafl reveals that the king's men are red and the attackers white, and that the word hnefi does indeed refer to the kingpiece.Helmfrid 2005, p.10.  The most revealing – and yet most ambiguous – clues to Hnefatafl lie in a series of riddles posed by a character identified as Odinn in disguise (see Gestumblindi) in Hervarar saga.  One riddle, as stated in Hauksbók, refers to "the weaponless maids who fight around their lord, the [brown/red] ever sheltering and the [fair/white] ever attacking him," although there is controversy over whether the word weaponless refers to the maids or, as in other versions, to the king himself, which may support the argument that a "weaponless king" cannot take part in captures (see #Balance of play).Helmfrid 2005, p.10.  One may also note that the assignment of the colors of brown or red to the defenders and fair or white to the attackers is consistent with Friðþjófs saga.  Another of Gestumblindi's riddles asks "what is that beast all girded with iron, which kills the flocks?  He has eight horns but no head, and runs as he pleases."Helmfrid 2005, p.10. An alternative translation is here on the web.  Here, it is the answer that is controversial, as the response has been variously translated as "It is the húnn in hnefatafl. He has the name of a bear and runs when he is thrown," or, "It is the húnn in hnefatafl. He has the name of a bear and escapes when he is attacked."Helmfrid 2005, pp.10-11.  The first problem is in translating the word húnn, which may refer to a die (as suggested by the former translation), the "eight horns" referring to the eight corners of a six-sided die and "the flocks" that he kills referring to the stakes the players lose.Helmfrid 2005, p.11. This is a close paraphrasing of Helmfrid's own words.  Alternatively, húnn may refer to the king, his "eight horns" referring to the eight defenders, which is more consistent with the latter translation, "He has the name of a bear and escapes when he is attacked."Helmfrid 2005, p.11. The idea that the húnn is the king is supported by Murray (p.61.)
Wilhelm meis (talk) 17:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Expanding the article

message: I know of two modern games based on Tafl: Breakthru (board game), and Thud (game).  Does anybody know any other modern Tafl variants?  Wilhelm meis (talk) 00:39, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Legacy

message: This peer reviewed paper tries to reconstruct the rules of both Tablut and Hnefatafl. The paper states: "Unfortunately, the original English translation of Linnaeus's diary account of Tablut omitted 2 of the 14 entries (Linnaeus 1811, 55–58), and those that were translated were of dubious accuracy in a few cases." 
The reconstructed rules from the paper are somewhat different to the ones mentioned in the article. The biggest difference is that, according to the paper, when one re-translates the text it becomes clear that the king can be captured by two opponents, the same way as any other piece, unless he is on his starting position. Interestingly with the King being able to be captured the same way as any other unit, the game suddenly becomes balanced and it isn't necessary to invent arbitrary rules to make the game balanced.
I have also bought a booklet called Spel & Dubbel (meaning Games & Gambling) from the Swedish Museum of National Antiquities, which gives (very short) instructions on how to to play Tablut/Hnefatafl, and the rules have the same king capturing rules as the paper above.
The Reconstruction part of the article only reconstructs Tablut, it would be great if Hnefatafl reconstruction rules could be added and the rules from the peer reviewed article at least be mentioned Zanoi (talk) 11:22, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:   Better reconstruction rules 

message: The lede (at least) is written in the past tense, as though or as if the game used to exist, but doesn't anymore. That's simply inappropriate. (Nine Men's Morris is thousands of years old, yet still popular. Ditto Mancala and many other games. Hnefatafl & Tablut are included in Schmittberger's book New Rules for Classic Games, etc.) I suggest referring to the game's origin, but  referencing it then-on as a living entity (present tense), which it really is. (Is there any disagree?) Ok,  Ihardlythinkso (talk) 12:02, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: As the original riules are lost, perhaps past tense is appropriate.--Nø (talk) 14:02, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point! (Forgot about that.) Yet, it's a little confusing. (A game exists if it has a name, and rules. So how is a game discussed, if no rules? So far as the game exists, it's played. [Or vice versa.] If there are modern/reconstructed rules, it's a game. If not, it's a relic of a piece of furniture.) This was an editorial for thought. (Comments?) Cheers, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 14:16, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see related edits today. (Text, and Infobox.) Ok, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 18:33, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  past tense? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Tafl games. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080317021144/http://alumnus.caltech.edu:80/~leif/games/Hnefetafl/ardri.html to http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~leif/games/Hnefetafl/ardri.html
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Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 05:28, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article deals with a family of games, but the section "Balance of play" reads as if it is dealing with one specific game / set of rules.--Nø (talk) 17:29, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Balance of play" section 

message: The article states in the lead:
:Tafl spread everywhere the Vikings traveled, including Iceland, Britain, Ireland, and Lapland.[1]
I have not checked the sources, but "everywhere" may be an overstatement. How about Italy, or along Varangian routes into Russia and Ukraine, say?--Nø (talk) 17:56, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spread