Talk:Quackwatch/Archive 1

message: Which cases have been decided against Quackwatch?  I'd assume someone keeps score and is pleased to display a list.  Midgley 21:34, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean, court cases? I'm not sure if quackwatch has been prosecuted specifically... psychiatrist guy did sue Bolen for libel successfully though :) Tyciol 06:48, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cases can be decided against Quackwatch that were brought by Quackwatch (eg Barrett could lose his defamation claim).  I think there have been some libel cases that Barrett has brought that he lost.   That doesn't necessarily mean that the allegedly libelous statements were true, however.  It may mean that the fact-finder concluded that even if the statements were false, their  author did not make them with actual malice (eg knowing they were false statements, or being reckless in not investigating).  Since Barrett is a public figure, the bar is pretty high, and the First Amendment (in US) protects statements made negligently against public figures. jawesq 01:16, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some you win, some you lose 

message: Those showing detailed knowledge about Quackpotwatch in this discussion page have apparently not noticed that that article has turned into the nonsense it is now. Almost all of that article should be removed and the rest rewritten. Please see my comments on its discussion page. --Espoo 22:15, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Really? I have that on my watchlist too but I'm a bit behind checking. I'll take a look, but any further discussion should be on that article's talkpage. Tyciol 05:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The matter has been decided for us. The article has been deleted as a non-notable site: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Quackpotwatch. In other matters that means that it can't be used as an internal reference, except on its own article, which is gone! -- Fyslee 16:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Radical rewrite of Quackpotwatch necessary

message: Considering all the discussion on the all inclusive nature of categories, should we be talking about skepticism and pseudosketicism on this page? --Dematt 18:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems like such discussions would be extremely appropriate, especially coming from a secondary source as defined by WP:RS that discusses Quackwatch or similar media. --Ronz 17:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Discussions about Pseudoskepticism, a supposed pathology, are irrelevant, other than to use as an ad hominem.  Discussions of skepticism and scientific skepticism would be useful. --Ronz 23:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, in the context of health (not to mention medical and professional ethics), "unproven = bad" seems quite appropriate.  --Ronz 00:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

text:  Thanks for demonstrating my point so eloquently :-)NATTO 10:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem.  The point is that we don't want to confuse ethics with bias, or one might make the mistake of equating the lack of bias with the lack of ethics. --Ronz 19:01, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  skepticism and pseudoskepticism, looking for input 

message: :Sometimes establishing the context of information is critical.  What makes this critique unique & notable, is that the individual has no built-in economic interest for alt med (I dare say there are a number of disadvantages for profs) and that it looks like a clean, independent, technical dissection of multiple QW pages for accuracy (demonstrates a pattern) from skeptical groups previously accepted, or perhaps even solicted, by QW / CSICOP. There is a lot of relevant information that needs to be succinctly summarized w/o significant information loss.
:QW sympathetic editors' reverts seem conveniently over exclusionary of content, as does the CSICOP action above:
:"An independent, peer-reviewed critical analysis", "an independent skeptic", "closely examine", "groundless dogma" *are simply not* Vanity 
:"groundless dogma" originally by QW sympathizer Jokestress, I didn't expand at the time to aid objective development
: "With 80 papers on chemical and medical topics and 11 patents...", book: these are crucial, informative credential details at a crucial point of controversy.
:"Most often, vanity edits are edits about the editors themselves, their close relatives or their personal associates" Nope, not me.
:"As explained below, vanity by itself is not a basis for deletion, but lack of assertion of notability is." Important to establish b/g of author on crucial article
:"# The insertion of any textual personal biographical information within an article which does not significantly add to the clarity or meaning of the article." ditto
:Fys, histamine induced s<SUP>c</SUP>h<SUB>l</SUB>ock: "Silence is golden" might be a better tactic, to handle the lump more analytically & quietly.  It is a valid article, the QW symp backlash campaign might backfire. The more QW picks at the scab, the more it will probably bleed. You know, JK's article might not be the only one...--I'clast 22:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: David D, re: your edits, the hallmarks of QW and its associates are disparagement, personal & professional attack, and intimidating tactics. If QW restrained itself to fair, scientific reviews, that might be one kettle of fish - it is not. A number of QW partisans have previously stated or agreed that QW is a (favorite) partisan site. Nor does SB make it a fine point. QW articles constantly attack the PhDs of lesser provenance and questionable conflicts of interest. Here, it is important that there is no such confusion, this was not an appeal to authority, these elements are all crucial details.--I'clast 22:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: David D, re: "closely" , "closely examines" is almost a direct quote, "examined closely" in the conclusion. Certainly this article is notably the closest academic, analytical examination of QW articles anyone has seen in 30 years of QW.--I'clast 22:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (edit conflict with mastcell, who makes a similar point) I would diagree with you.  Your stronger argument is to not quote the CV.  Every time i see such things it makes me wonder why?  You would be better off having people examine his credentials themselves. He is easy enough to find. The quality of a Ph.D. is fairly irrelevent with respect to the veracity of their opinion in later years.  There are many examples of brilliant academics who have little worth hearing in later years. Typically they are the ones that flaunt their qualifications. In my opinon, by using that tactic it reflects poorly on him as an authority. David D. (Talk) 22:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These are decent points, and normally, the practice. Here I think that the specific situation is important. I might normally agree "MIT" is a little blatant, and as you state, a situation with a somewhat checkered history - one might consider at least a link to his CV, so that the average reader can instantly access it - I think an average reader is challenged to read the whole article, much less exercise a search. I am concerned that the author's qualifications stand alone, because of the less known journal and the potential for ad hom on both the journal and the author in other places.(ahem) He's not pointing his creditials out, I am.  With respect to other editors' comments above, I don't think this is a vanity piece for notoriety - it has been asleep for 4 years rather than promoted. I might suggest one "independent" & "skeptic".  Perhaps we need to work on confirmation of the peer review policies in specific.  My understanding is that the book reviews and such might not be but that the papers are peer reviewed.  Thanks--I'clast 23:23, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a link to his CV might be worth while.  But prose listing his accomplishments seems a little worthless, i agree with the most of the reasoning presented by mastcell below. There is a good reason why many people don't bother reading these types of articles.  It is easy to spot the contentious articles since they always bring in extraneous content.  It makes reading very choppy. If it has to be in the article it should be demoted to footnotes. With respect to the independant and skeptic i find the first to be unprovable and the second to be confusing.  There is no doubt he is skeptical but the use this word might lead people to believe something else. That is the reason i support adding the recent book he has published.  It very much sets the scene for his brand of skepticism. David D. (Talk) 04:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm going to let the other editors chew on it tonight.  Thanks--I'clast 23:23, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering that a leading argument against Quackwatch is that its main contributor, Stephen Barrett, is not qualified to make the kind of "scientific" judgements he makes, establishing the qualifications and credentials of those who should critique Quackwatch is not only allowable, it is essential. Levine2112 23:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Stating that Kauffman is a Ph.D. and holds an appointment at a respectable university establishes his credentials; he wouldn't have the university post if he didn't publish in the peer-reviewed literature. Citing an off-topic book (see below) and rehashing his CV in minute detail don't add anything useful for the purposes of this article, and straying off topic like that just makes it sound like a partisan advertisement rather than an (ideally) NPOV encyclopedia article. MastCell 00:13, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Back early for the "election".  Think that the average readers need to alerted that the Kauffman paper is a different case, and the item that best, and most credibly, sets forth the technical consideration of contra-QW merits.--I'clast 04:56, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: .  .  [[WP:Vanity]] has nothing to do here

message: About Kauffman's book... I guess if you believe that authoring a non-peer-reviewed, hysterically titled book on medical errors has a bearing on Kauffman's comments about Quackwatch, then it's fine to include the book info. To me, it sounds like a plug for the book, is totally unrelated to the point Kauffman is making, and doesn't add anything meaningful to his qualifications (his Ph.D. and appointment at a respected university say what needs to be said). Again, my intention isn't to portray Kauffman as unqualified; I just don't think the book has any bearing on his qualifications on this topic. I'd like to get this criticism standing on its own feet, NPOV. I won't revert the stuff about his book, cause it's really not my intention to get into an edit war, but let me know what you think of my reasoning for cutting out the info on Kauffman's book. MastCell 23:50, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I mention this above but will repeat it here. i think i agree with you on all points except the exclusion of this book.  My reasoning is that the book sets the scene for his brand of skepticism. It may not be relevant to this specific example but it will allow readers to see more of this scientist than the fact he is a biochemist. David D. (Talk) 04:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know. I guess I don't find the title of the book all that hysterical and I have a healthy sense of humor. I believe that David D. is correct. Being an author of a book of this title definitely lets the reader know Kauffman's stance on mainstream medicine. This is entirely relevant, since Quackwatch's brand of "skepticism" is typcially extremely pro-mainstream medicine. Knowing that the person who authored this criticism has written a book condemning mainstream medicine is topical. It doesn't make him any more or less of a scientist. It just clues the reader in on Kauffman's POV... distinctly opposite of Barrett (and Quackwatch... same thing). Levine2112 04:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely agree that noting the book provides insight into an unfamiliar author and gives dimension to both parties' claims of technical skepticism. This author and paper are significantly different in nature than the other QW critics in several aspects that set them apart. Careful consideration of any objections, about "overpromotion", "too detailed", etc, should be made with this point in mind: the Kauffman paper is a different case.--I'clast 05:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can understand the viewpoints above, and if it were a differenet setting than an encyclopedia, I would definitely consider including the information about Kauffman. In this case it appears to be a violation of WP:VANITY information. This isn't Kauffman's article. If it were, even more information about him could be included without any violation. The information is unencyclopedic here and is available from the link provided. -- Fyslee 18:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In case you missed it. Also, not having read the book, I am not so sure that the book itself is off topic. Malignant Medical Myths & its reviews certainly sound like it might have some discussions relevant to the QW article in it. In the technical sense, the JK paper seems to be the most notable critic although there are clearly more involved critics.--I'clast 21:23, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kauffman's book 

message: Merge Quackwatch and Stephen Barrett
I am proposing a merge between the Quackwatch article and the Stephen Barrett article. A great deal of the information on the Quackwatch article is repeated on the Stephen Barrett article. I think that together, Stephen Barrett and Quackwatch are notable and deserve a listing in WP. The main point here is that Quackwatch is Barrett. Barrett is Quackwatch.
Distinguishing the two is a bit of overkill, especially since the content of each article is so similar.
Please make comments and cast your votes here. Thank you.
*Can we merge all three under the AMA and Pharma? --Travisthurston 16:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 

message: Merge Stephen Barrett and NCAHF
I am also suggesting a merge with the NCAHF article, which also contain information which can all be found on the Stephen Barrett. Again, the NCAHF is Barrett and Barrett is the NCAHF.
*Merge. Levine2112 00:13, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 2 

message: Can we merge all three under the AMA and Pharma? --Travisthurston 16:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course not. Keep such comments out of this section. Undocumented conspiracy theories are the refuge of .... minds. -- Fyslee 20:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ballot question from Merge Proposal #3

message: I made a bold move and just redirected all three of Homeowatch, Credential Watch and Chirobase to Quackwatch.  Hope this is appropriate, it seems much better than the acrimony that may occur going through AfD. See Barratt talk page for a more detailed discussion. David D. (Talk) 21:51, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done.  There was one phrase in Chirobase which should (if accurate) be copied over.  I'll take care of it.  — Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 23:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Redirect of affiliated site to this page

message: I've removed the link to Kauffman's "CV". It does not link to his CV. A CV is a objective list of academic and educational appts and a list of published work. The link you provided is basically praise for Kauffman from the Int'l College of Integrative Medicine. How can I tell it's not a CV? Here's a hint: CV's usually don't contain subjective and vague statements like "With 80 papers on chemical and medical topics, and 11 patents, including 2 on antituberculosis drugs, Dr. Kauffman has turned his attention to exposing fraud in medicine with publication of a book, Malignant Medical Myths, 2006." If you want to link to Kauffman's CV, fine. If you want to emphasize the fact that JK is a darling of the alt-med community, fine (although I think it undercuts his supposed "independence"). But call things what they are. MastCell 22:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well that explains the quotation marks that i removed from the "With 80 papers on chemical and medical topics, and 11 patents, including 2 on antituberculosis drugs, Dr. Kauffman has turned his attention to exposing fraud in medicine with publication of a book, Malignant Medical Myths, 2006." comment that was in the ref link. It didn't sound like the kind of quote you would have in a CV. That should have been a heads up for me to check the link itself. David D. (Talk) 22:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I have replaced the link with a better one to the USP providing relevant information on Dr. Kauffman which is now professor emeritus at USP. His bibliography is also listed, including the book "Malignant Medical Myths", NATTO 22:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That link is much better; thank you. Since his bibliography is included in the link, and it presumably establishes JK's credentials as well as they can be established, can we cut the part about JK's book as non-relevant to the Wikipedia article on QW? Also, I know there's a rush to bash Barrett and QW here, but please be a little more cautious about citing and describing your sources. Potentially valid points get lost when you overzealously flog or exaggerate them. MastCell 23:03, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Mastcell. Thank you for your warning. All criticisms included in the article are properly referenced and valid. It is a known fact that even skeptics have reservations about how the information is provided on QW. A site that is critical of so many things should be structured with very high standards and provide the information in a balanced, objective manner. The evidence is that it is not the case at QW. I am sorry if that does not fit with your views. Regarding the book "Malignant Medical Myths" I do not agree that it should be removed. It is in fact very relevant to the topic of QW since Barrett and QW claim to uncover and expose fraud and quackery in health care. Such fraud and quackery is not limited to the field of alternative health modalities and examples can be found in mainstream medicine as well. The review by Dr. Kauffman is not Barrett bashing but a well documented review based on facts not on personalities.NATTO 23:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's another example; you can't insert your own words in the middle of a direct quote just because you disagree with it. Then it's no longer a quote. It's misleading, and it makes it really hard to assume good faith. Again, I have no particular allegiance or connection to QW, but I do want to see a reasonably NPOV article; obviously (see here and above) that will require some vigilance. I'm concerned that the anti-QW sentiment sometimes gets the better of objectivity. MastCell 23:26, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

text:  I agree that the word claim should be outside the quote so I should have worded it differently. To use that to support your difficulty in assuming good faith.... well, hum. However it is true that it is what the site claims. There is no proof provided to show that it is actually impossible to obtain the information elsewhere. So until such proof is provided then it can only be a claim. As far as the anti-QW sentiment , it is out there so should be reflected in the article so that a balanced view is provided. There are editors who would also present only the positive side of QW and are active contributors to a website that has been shown to be unreliable.NATTO 00:32, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

text: * I already thanked you for your warning. So thanks also for the in depth psychoanalysis. I already feel better doctor. NATTO 18:01, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kauffman again 

message: It is well known that Fyslee has a strong association with QW and it's owner. He is also a self-proclaimed quackbuster. He does not like the Kauffman review because it is not favorable to Barrett and QW otherwise he would promote it ardently and probably would put links to it everywhere in WP. NOW if he has an independantly published scientific review of QW that says the opposite i.e QW and Barrett's writings are reliable, accurate, unbiased, fair and balanced, then by ALL MEANS, please let us know about it. Otherwise can he please stop pushing his particular world view and POV on this. NATTO 22:09, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Attacking Fyslee for bias seems a little pot-kettle-black. I think it's safe to say we all have POV's about Quackwatch and its subject matter, or we wouldn't be here (myself included). Nonetheless I think we can work together to make the article better. Singling out Fyslee seems a little unfair. MastCell 00:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: No issue with POV on talk page however there are limits and a difference between an opinion an making biased accusations against a person who is not here to defend himself or herself. As far as working together to make the article better, I am all for it, however even some editors cannot even abide by what they have agreed to and other have no problem reverting what has been agreed by the majority discussing the issue... so where does that leave us ? Loose interpretation of WP policies based on one's world view ? NATTO 00:59, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Here's why not - please re-read the WP:NPOV policy which you quote so frequently. Specifically, "To avoid endless edit wars, we can agree to present each of the significant views fairly and not assert any one of them as correct... Disputes are characterized in Wikipedia; they are not re-enacted." Getting into a situation where you cite Kauffman, then I cite someone to refute him, then we argue about the relative merits of Kauffman's review, etc etc is inappropriate for the article. The goal is not to demonstrate that Kauffman is "right" or "wrong"; it's to correctly characterize his criticism in its proper perspective, as part of a summary of both praise and criticism for QW. The constant efforts to minimize or muddy the praise for QW while buffing up its critics makes it really difficult to maintain a true NPOV in this article. MastCell 23:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fair enough. Of course my comments are based in what has been said by some editors on the talk page, not the article itself. I fully agree with you about what should be placed in the article. The talk page is where people discuss their point of view, discuss issues when edits are reverted or deleted. Having both sides of the issue discussed on the talk page help bring a balanced and factual article with good references.  It is certainly required to present each of the significant views fairly and not assert any one of them as correct. At the same time the information provided should accurately reflect the source(s) and not be a partial interpretation of the editor(s) :-). NATTO 02:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fyslee and QW 

message: Well it seems that there are editors who cannot abide by what they have agreed. So much for trying to reach agreement... So let's go back to square one and add more of the critical comments in the review. NATTO 23:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pls see the parsed options, phrase-by-phrase, in answer to Levine, above my long answer to Fys, ~23:11. This is a more comlete, critical summary of Kauffman's paper. I would ask each editor to give a rationale for/against each of the 5 phrases added to the minimalist verson.--I'clast 23:12, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As above, I think it's reasonable to summarize Kauffman's conclusions and include one or two relevant direct quotes. I leave it up to editors more invested in Kauffman to choose which quotes are most relevant. As far as Fyslee, he has his POV (as do most of us editing this article), but he seems to edit in good faith and I'd argue that his presence facilitates back-and-forth and makes this a better article. I'm not sure what you mean by "Gutless Whores", but I think many scientists/physicians with solid credentials might disagree with Kauffman's analysis; hence the approval from JAMA etc. Characterizing those who disagree with you as "Gutless Whores" would seem to be counterproductive, but perhaps I'm misinterpreting. MastCell 00:13, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not characterizing anyone directly. Kauffman lays on some hard references & arguments that are not going to magically turn into puff pieces for some of those articles he analyzes without some serious "dialectical materialism" type processing. I suspect that we all know of administrative and PR types that frequently try (and often, do) to rewrite reality, whereas good science stands, often alone for a while, against the test of time. "Science" authors so crass that they could reflate those 8 articles w/o compellingly addressing Kauffman's points, I would heartily criticize.--I'clast 00:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text:  It is required to assume good faith as it should be. However it maybe difficult to assume good faith on an ongoing basis when an editor is always clearly supporting the same point of view regardless of the available evidence. The comment made by Fyslee regarding Kauffman on the talk pages of the SB and QW articles is highly questionable. He is the first one to be offended when some negative remark is made about Dr. Barrett but when it comes to throwing dirt at other living persons, than its all go. It seems that he lives by a double standard. NATTO 00:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: * Another example- comments he made on the James Privitera talk page:
"Sure, provide any good biographical details you can document. If you want to defend a criminal, be my guest. The man broke the law. Fine, defend him. "A balanced view" can serve many purposes, and it can certainly be used to defend the crimes performed by criminals. As long as it can be done in a NPOV way, it's allowed here. A "balanced view" of Hitler's, Mao's, and Stalin's misdeeds allows that their justifications for why they murdered so many people be stated, but not presented as justifications or sold as the preferred viewpoint." Comments by Fyslee 10:40, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Take a step back for a second. You're also "assuming the same point of view regardless of available evidence". I'm happy to work with you although our POV's differ, but please... your conviction that the rest of us disagree with you because we're just too corrupt/stupid/unfamiliar with the medical literature is getting a little annoying. Accept the fact that some of us read the literature, appraise Kauffman's arguments, and may even have some actual experience taking care of patients... yet come to different conclusions than you do. Not because we've been bought off, or brainwashed, etc., but because reasonable people can come to different conclusions even when presented with the same evidence. In fact, the vast majority of people with advanced scientific and medical training agree more with Barrett than Kauffman. Is Kauffman a voice in the wilderness? Maybe. Is Kauffman just wrong? More likely. But please drop the idea that Fyslee is somehow uniquely biased in addressing this topic. MastCell 05:43, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  MastCell. I did change my point of view when we where discussing the issue of the review and, if I remember correctly, I proposed a solution that was accepted by the other editors at the time and that I tried to uphold. The fact that some did not honor it is not my fault. As far as our interaction, based on the fact that I had placed the word "claim" into a quote,( an editing mistake that I clearly admitted and fixed ) you automatically accused me of bad faith... ? Finally I do not think that you disagree with me all the time, on the contrary I think we can discuss things and come to an agreement and we have, I think you are a reasonable person that can also change his point of view when good evidence if provided. My comments were not directed at you at all, nor at David and the others. I do not doubt that you have practical experience as I do. We may see thing differently but that is not unusual so please look at both sides of the issue before drawing conclusions. The issue here was about reliability of information on QW and I know of skeptics who generally agree with the goals of Barrett but also have a problem with the way the information is analysed on QW. TO the question is Kauffman just wrong? You answer: more likely. That is your point of view. Now if you look at the scientific references he provided and can provided other references showing that he is wrong, then that will be better. By the way Mastcell, do you have any practical experience with chelation therapy or any of the other modalities discussed in the review ? NATTO 06:34, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Repeated changes to the review section 

message: It seems too long.  Nothing that we discussed that I said didn't belong was added, but I believe some of the sentences we didn't discuss don't really belong.  — Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 03:33, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Arthur, all I can say is that if you had honoured the agreement we made earlier, this discussion would not be happening !NATTO 03:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kaufmann quasi-quote 

message: Can you please reference the exact page were QW is listed as a best site because I have not found it ? Also the other reference is simply a list of web addresses by topic. That is not an honor or an award at all. With 22 web sites QW will be posted on such list. Many websites are. Your are pushing it.NATTO 11:00, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I have found the listing at page 7 of 8 squeezed below ONHEALTH - WHAT MAKES IT GREAT and the Mayo Clinic Health Oasis - TRIED AND TRUE we have QW -WORTH A CLICK. You can see the enthusiasm going down... From GREAT to WORTH A CLICK..... I am not even sure if that really qualifies as an award or an honor but QW needs all the help it can get so...NATTO 11:21, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I provided the correct link. -- Fyslee 11:26, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes you did. I did not say you did not. I simply asked for the page number and as I pointed out above, I found it above.NATTO 11:50, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You asked for the "reference." It included the link which is to the precise page. -- Fyslee 12:07, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good one. Adding favorable mention in journal.... Ah Ah :-) 12:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, headings should be improved when necessary. We are developing this article, and such changes and additions will be necessary in the future. Nothing's finished here. -- Fyslee 12:07, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes. Next we can add: Mention of the website on search engines... :-)NATTO 12:45, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Be my guest. I'm not going there, because that list would be endless and pointless....;-)  -- Fyslee 20:56, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  U.S. News & World Report 

message: I have no knowledge about the above mentioned person. However, without judging him, I would like to point out that I have no doubt that there are dubious characters out there and that there are people involved in fraud. This said Barrett seem to have difficulty in separating the wheat from the shaff, attacking anything that is alternative or complementary without having a real good grasp of some of these modalities or issue. Please lets not throw the baby with the water.NATTO 11:54, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Braswell is a very big (one of the biggest of all time?) time con man that Clinton pardoned. It was a very big item in the USA news at that time. As for alt med, there are several sides to that coin. Some of us, including myself, have used it personally and practiced it on patients, and have studied both sides. It has caused deaths in my own family, and I have been involved in treatments of people who might have had a better chance if they hadn't been treated by the quack (but well meaning) doctors I worked with at the time. It is not a black or white issue, and even Barrett acknowledges that fact. He and I prefer to judge methods by whether they work or not, rather than exclusively by their titles. Titles can be simplistic and deceptive. -- Fyslee 12:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well I am sorry if you had a negative experience, that is all I can say without knowing the details. This said it is important to remain objective. I could also give you numerous examples of people who have been hurt by well meaning allopathic practitioner ( M.D., D.D.S. and others )( I think you would call them mainstream ).  As far as judging, before you can judge you have to really understand what you are tallking about. Pardon me if some of the sarcastic titles on QW articles and the "harsh" tone leaves serious doubt in my mind about what you said in your last point. Forbes did write : "Mostly attacking alternative medicines, homeopathy and chiropractors, the tone here can be rather harsh NATTO 12:09, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  One more thing. If you indeed have used alternative modalities and cause harm, there is also the possibility that you A) did not really have a good mastery of the modality B) used it when it was not indicated. The same can and does happen with any modality when a person is out of his depth. NATTO 21:19, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is trolling pure and simple on the part of NATTO. The first sentence reads, "I have no knowledge about the above mentioned person." Fine - then learn something about him before posting. As it is, your initial post seems designed only to provoke more heated discussion without adding anything constructive. Mission accomplished. MastCell 23:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: At least I can admit when I do not know about something. Thank you for your POV.NATTO 03:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You have just demonstrated to us that you are unwilling to support and applaud criticism of one of the most large-scale and persistent fraudsters and con men of the last century, tried and convicted of obtaining millions of dollars from thousands of elderly victims by fraudulent claims. This attitude suggests you have no business pretending to a knowledgeable, let alone a neutral, point of view on this article. Please desist. alteripse 05:03, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank your for your POV however I have done no such thing. I stated clearly that I could not judge this particular situation about this man since I was not informed about it. I have also clearly written " I would like to point out that I have no doubt that there are dubious characters out there and that there are people involved in fraud ". Not judging someone because you do not have information to do so is not unwillingness to support, it is simply common sense. At least get your facts right when you make accusations, so please apply your own advice. NATTO 07:35, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have now read some of the newspapers report on Braswell. He has been convicted of mail fraud and ,now of tax evasion. This is clearly illegal and should be definitely condemned. The proper authorities qualified to do so are taking care of this, as it should be and I support that entirely. They have all the available facts and evidence in this case so I  fully support them in their duty.NATTO 08:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

text: ahem. Equating Natto's frankly admitted unfamiliarity with support for particular individuals is highly inapproporiate. Although slightly familiar with Gero Vital's ubiquitous junk mail & never interested (seemed poorly supported & wildly promoted), I had no idea who Almon Glenn Braswell is either. This QW article is slowly becoming an encyclopedic article. Natto has been a significant factor in challenging certain kinds of POV & omission of which there has been no shortage. Inconvenient, perhaps; interfering, pure POV.  QWr's occasionally having to contact certain kinds of facts *is good* for the article. Please do not discourage legitimate edit(or)s to Wikipedia. Thank you.--I'clast 15:10, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you I'clast for restoring some objectivity on this talk page. It does seem that questioning certain dogmatic views in this article does trigger generalized attacks by some editors. Some of them coming from "nowhere" ( i.e they are not normally involved in the editing of the article such as alteripse ). They just come in and make baseless accusations and assumptions.NATTO 15:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, alteripse came in and contributed; that's how Wikipedia works. Discouraging people from joining the article is wrong. Second, what triggered the "generalized attack" in this case was an inflammatory statement about someone you hadn't researched. I've mentioned above that this whole thread smacks of trolling - that is, stirring up controversy for its own sake - since you had no real point to make about Braswell to begin with and didn't know anything about him, other than that he's mentioned on QW and you don't like QW. For the record, I agree with alteripse that your unyielding hatred of QW and everything it stands for is getting in the way of creating a rational, balanced article. And don't bother labeling this "POV"; this is talk page. Everything here is someone's POV. MastCell 16:45, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * Come on User:MastCell, give it up. You only comment when you have something negative to say. When I reply to your posts in a conciliatory tone... ( I.E I think you are a reasonable person that can also change his point of view when good evidence if provided ) no reply. When I ask a relevant question ( I.E. Mastcell, do you have any practical experience with chelation therapy or any of the other modalities discussed in the review? ) No reply. All, you do is spew accusations. Please follow your own advice... Finally its fine if you love QW, that is your prerogative but don't paint everyone that do not share your love of QW as black NATTO 16:58, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please review the talk page. Your perspective is skewed. I don't "love" QW; I do want to see a reasonable, useful, balanced article. The primary editors of this article clearly despise QW and all it stands for. This makes it very difficult to prevent POV creep in the article. I'm fine with the lengthy "Criticism" section that dwarfs the actual description of QW itself, but I've also found that when the QW-haters are given an inch, they immediately go for a mile. I haven't made entirely negative comments - for instance, I appreciated your work on a compromise about the Kauffman article - and I'm sorry not to respond to every comment you've addressed to me (I do need to go to work and earn a living). But let's close this thread, for God's sake. It's clear you need to have the last word, and I'd like to let you do so in order to move on (as I've said, I regard this thread as trolling), but if I let you have the last word you accuse me of ignoring any positive comments so I can spew accusations. So go ahead, respond to this post, and then let's let this thread die a much-needed death. MastCell 20:04, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Almon Glenn Braswell 

message: I will say that, all arguments about Forbes, Kauffman, etc aside, the article as it currently stands looks remarkably good, and remarkably balanced, given the heated feelings its subject matter provokes. Nice work. MastCell 20:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did a few touches... cleaned up some redundancy and developed the article's scope in the intro, but otherwise I agree with you. Nice work everyone. Levine2112 21:43, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good addition to the lead. The controversial aspect did need mentioning. Wasn't there some mention at some time in the past? I don't remember. If not, it was needed, since the lead should mention important high points of the article. -- Fyslee 21:56, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I often prefer shorter, this sentence "Quackwatch has been involved in reporting on therapeutic touch, Vitamin O,  Almon Glenn Braswell, dietary supplements, especially when sold by doctors, and the Mexican clinic where Coretta Scott King died." actually seems ~1/2 line too short to me on subjects covered by QW to accurately convey the scope of historical QW activity.--I'clast 04:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's hear any ideas. Introductions and descriptions should be revised if necessary to cover additional material, rather than material being deleted because it doesn't exactly match the heading. -- Fyslee 05:16, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not deleting material, placed it by functional priority.  Summarizing QW's notable press recognition would be better a one line bullet item if possible.  I did invite additional coverage for the "about the site" based on my idea of improved coverage and visual balance & appeal. Just a little dry tonight to come up with a proposed summary.--I'clast 05:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't intend to imply that you were deleting material now. It was just a reminder to guide us, since that has happened before. Your invitation may have been missed by me. (I unfortunately have to work and sleep sometimes....;-) Where is the invitation located? I just need the URL to the comment.  -- Fyslee 10:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nice work