Talk:Cuba/Archive 16

message: Apparently it not only offends some to compare the socialist government structure of Cuba to that of China etc, but also mitochondrial DNA evidence is now ignored.  Apparently to Wikipedia reality is secondary to consensus...an interesting and not too flattering state of affairs.  El Jigue 3-7-07208.65.188.149 21:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yet again I have had to add our sources re:DNA evidence, EJ. I have no idea why this is so contentious to people, I think you and I must have added that detail about 15 times over the last 12 months or so. As for comparing the government structure of Cuba to China in an article, perhaps the editor that removed it wasn't so much offended, as thought that it isn't necessary. As they said in their edit summary "this is about Cuba, not any other country" , and I have a feeling a lot of other people are going to feel the same way, for good faith more than sinister reasons.-- Zleitzen(talk) 23:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

text: EJ, I've moved your Cornell reference to the area of the section that refers to democracy (and lack of). I don't really want to get involved in that fiasco again, not having fond memories of Scott Grayban, Adam Carr and those tedious edit wars. There are more important things to do on the page. I reiterate that this section would be better to detail the nuts and bolts - and keep these varying impressions to a minimum. That some guys in the United States think that Cuba is a totalitarian society, or that some other guy thinks that Cuba represents a grassroots participatory democracy doesn't really rock my boat. I just want to know how many seats are on the assembly, how often is an election etc etc. At least we have another source though, thanks EJ.-- Zleitzen(talk) 16:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

text: EJ, I've removed the mafia speculation for the time being until we can examine sources, at present it seemed too much like speculation. As for your other addition re:Batista era, as I understand it, the economy was spiralling downwards during the mid to late 50s due to shifts in sugar prices, and - as Hugh Thomas writes - "Cuban society had become stagnant" The pursuit of freedom. 2nd Edition p.748. More sources are needed for this whole page, particularly given that Adam Carr wrote the whole history section seemingly off the top of his head. A bold effort on his part, but badly needing some qualifiers for certain points.-- Zleitzen(talk) 00:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Hi EJ, here is an article which attempts in some way to address these issues . My personal understanding, though you are welcome to correct me, is that the Cuban economy was so dependent on sugar export prices that successive governments, including Batista eras & post Soviet Cuba, have been helpless to its whims. The market expansions of the vast cheap sugar exporters of India and Brazil etc, and the lack of diversification by Caribbean producers, exacerbated in Cuba by Castro's Soviet sheltered economy, lead to the long steady deterioration of the overall Caribbean economy over time. The second Batista presidency saw a drop in all foreign investments, and a stagnation of the economy that was flourishing after the war, alongside a deterioration of public projects beyond those sponsored by the U.S. (which you rightly mention). Hugh Thomas actually dates the roots of this slow decline as far back as 1930. Your building projects were merely sticking plasters over cracks. Of course, the post revolution economists failed to adapt or forsee the wider global changes that were occurring, and for this Castro is probably to blame. But I  think it is important to see the decline as a continuum, mirrored in Jamaica and other Caribbean sugar exporters, that spans both the pre and post revolution period of the last century. These reports from the US that hail the "great economy" of 1950s Cuba are as short sighted as the pro-revolution attacks on the Batista era. They are attempting to disguise massive problems - that were not of Batista's making - throughout the region.-- Zleitzen(talk) 23:06, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reality of government structure,DNA evidence of indigenous genes, etc denied 

message: In an visit to a pre-Castro Cuban past there is an article on the presence of these clinics in the 
US  Here are a few "snippets" of interest:
Cuban-style clinics may be a model for U.S.
JOHN DORSCHNER, jdorschner@MiamiHerald.com, Miami Herald March 12,2007   he emergency room.
"These clinics, which trace their roots to pre-Castro Cuba, could well be a vision of the future ofhealthcare in America. This is a very good model, says Steven Ullmann, a healthcare economist at the University of Miami." El Jigue 3-12-07208.65.188.149 14:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good work EJ. From what I have ascertained, the most consistent feature of Cuba's history is an obsession with healthcare that goes back centuries, and appears to be something of a national treasure. I don't think there are any people in the world who talk about their health and ailments more than Cubans! Perhaps it stems from local resistance to normally debilitating diseases, as per your previous speculations? -- Zleitzen(talk) 15:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pre-Castro medical care in Cuba

message: Z: For a project investigating the first steps of Castro's conversion to communism, certain references have come to light: Vives, Raul del Mazo Serra, and others sustain that this dates from a recruitment mediated by Fabio Grobart about 1948 
*del Mazo Serra, Raul 1984 (accessed 3-10-07) Interview on phone by Antonio Rafael de la Cova source Antonio Rafael de la Cova at http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/moncada/del-Mazo.pdf  
*Vivés, Juan (Translated to Spanish from 1981 Les Maîtres de Cuba. Opera Mundi, Paris by Zoraida Valcarcel) 1982 Los Amos de Cuba.  EMCÉ Editores, Buenos Aires.  
Right now I am examining the role of Otto Meruelo and Ángel Velázquez related material. Personal communications from knowlegable persons indicate that Otto Meruelo was a communist at an earlier time and later after 1952 he became a propagandist for Batista.  At the time most discounted Meruelos media attacks on Fidel Castro in the Sierra Maestra as mere propaganda; however, Castro's extremely virulent attacks on Meruelo (before and after victory), and Che Guevara's tribunal sentencing Meruelos de 30 years of imprisonment suggest that there well may have been something there. The most accepted theory is that Castro knew that Meruelo knew that he (Fidel Castro) had been recruited by the communist party early in his political life and feared that Meruelo's media pronouncements would "out him."  Ángel Velázquez seems to have been one those rebels who fled the Che Guevara's first purges in the Sierra.  Other references follow:
*Alonso, Robert 2003  (accessed 3-11-07) ¡Ni un seul pas en arriere! CANTV El Hatillo 2 de marzo de 2003 http://www.geocities.com/alertas3986959/UNSEUL.pdf “Otto Meruelo, vocero del General, se refería a los —rebeldes“ con calificativos como —forajidos“, —saqueadores“ y —COMUNISTAS“. This is the html version of the file http://www.geocities.com/alertas3986959/UNSEUL.pdf.
*Batista, Fulgencio 1960 Repuesta. Manuel León Sánchez S.C.L., Mexico D.F. pp.298 and 491 mention Otto Meruelos condemned to 30 years. And p. 491 also mentions the trial of former army photographer Sergeant Leal Gamboa, tried on February 6, 1960, and condemned to one year of imprisonment for photographing a group of Castro supporters giving the communist salute. 
*Bohemia Staff 1959 Oriente. Bohemia 51(3, Enero 18-25) 4-8, 142-146, 158-164, 172-175  cite on p174 “Otto Meruelo, el bufón de la TV ofreció uno de sus acostumbrados libretos. Un desertor de la Sierra, Ángel Velázquez, compareció ante las cameras para recitar su papel como papagallo amaestrado. Según explico. Fidel recibía órdenes directas del Kremlin.  Era Kruschev quien dirigía, a través del Che, al Movimento 26 de Julio. Evidentemente, la propaganda batistera estaba en manos de cretinos y malvados.”
*Castro, Fidel 1957 (accessed 3-11-07) Un año de lucha armada. Centro de Estudios Che Guevara Taken from Verde Olivo, el 5 de enero de 1964. http://cheguevara.cubasi.cu/content.aspx?menu_activo=5&estado=2&id=723 ” Se podían expresar, cuando no había censura, algunas opiniones disidentes, pero voceros oficiosos u oficiales del régimen llamaban a la concordia nacional con sus voces potentes, transmitidas en cadena para todo el territorio nacional. Con la histérica voz de Otto Meruelo se alternaban las engoladas de los payasos Pardo Llada y Conte Agüero y, este último, en la palabra escrita, repetía los conceptos de la radio, llamando al “hermano Fidel”, a la coexistencia con el régimen batistiano.”
*Castro, Fidel 1959 (accessed 3-10-07) Discurso pronunciado por El Comandante Fidel Castro Ruz, Primer Ministro del Gobierno Revolucionario, En La Universidad Central “Marta Abreu”, de Santa Clara, Las Villas, El 15 de marzo de 1959. (versión taquigráfica de las oficinas del primer ministro) http://www.cuba.cu/gobierno/discursos/1959/esp/f150359e.html  “Al pueblo no lo van a tupir, al pueblo no lo van a engañar, porque al pueblo no lo engañaron los Otto Meruelo, los Díaz Balart y toda aquella caterva de pícaros que lo único que sabían era mentir, pero a pesar de ser los únicos que hablaban no engañaban a nadie.”
*Meruelo, Otto 1949 El Bombín Narcisista. Bohemia July 3 1949. Indexed at http://www.guije.com/public/bohemia/4434/index.htm
*Meruelo, Otto 1955 El Caso Galbe y la Cosa “Grillo” Bohemia 1955 July 24th? 1955, Indexed at http://www.guije.com/public/bohemia/4732/index.htm
*Meruelo, Otto 1957 Pobreza Mental y Política, El Mundo July 26th, 1957 p. A.6 Cited by Luis, A. Perez in To Die in Cuba: Suicide and Society. University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, # Publisher: The University of North Carolina Press (April 13, 2005) English, ISBN-10: 0807829374,  ISBN-13: 978-0807829370  
*Sueiro Rodríguez, Victoria Maria  (accessed 3-11-07) Huellas y momentos cronológicos del exilio republicano español de 1939 en Cienfuegos. Biblioteca Virtual Miguel de Cervantes http://descargas.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/13582408112350940722202/017105.pdf?incr=1  p. 9 “El Dr. Chabás fue presentado a la sociedad cienfueguera en un acto celebrado en la Escuela de Comercio, presidido por el Dr. Felipe Silva Hernández las palabras de presentación corrieron a cargo del profesor Otto Meruelo” January 12, 1943
*Vilasuso, José (accessed 3-10-07) Executions at "La Cabaña" fortress under Ernesto "Ché" Guevara. Witness to persecution An electronic journal http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/archive/index.php/t-143321 “I was part of the team assembling the details of the cases against those accused of committing crimes during the previous government, such as murder, embezzlement, torture, betrayal, etc. Through my desk passed the files of accused men such as Commander Alberto Boix Coma and the journalist Otto Meruelo. Most of the indicted were military of low ranks, or politicians of no renown or charisma. On their side, the witnesses were ardent youth, vengeful, utopian, or simply malicious, anxious to earn revolutionary honors. I remember a Lieutenant Llivre, with an eastern-Cuba accent who would instigate us with “We must set up the show, we must bring real revolutionary witnesses who can shout ‘justice!, justice!, firing squad!, esbirros*!. This is what moves people.” The commissioner of the Marianao section once exhorted us: “We have to get all of these heads. All of them””
*Velázquez, Ángel (not sure this is the same person) 2007 Cuban Regional Historiography during the Revolution (accessed 3-11-07) International Studies February 2007 Calendar http://is.fiu.edu/calendar/calendar.php?print=1&date=2007-02&cal=0 "Cuban Regional Historiography during the Revolution" Luncheon lecture by Ángel Velázquez, Teacher, Miami Dade Public Schools. Mr. Velázquez is a graduate of the Universidad de Oriente in Santiago de Cuba, where he studied history and wrote a thesis on the “Movimiento Campesino de la Región Oriental de Cuba.” After working from 1987 to 1996 as museum researcher, from 1996 to 1998, Velázquez was professor of Cuban historiography and researcher for the Center for Regional Studies on Sierra Maestra and Guacanayabo at the Universidad Pedagógica in Oriente. During 1999 he worked as director of historical research at the “Oficina del Historiador” in the city of Santiago de Cuba. Velásquez has published several articles and the books Campecheula: Historia de un barrio cubano a fines del siglo XIX (Bayamo, Oriente: Ediciones Bayamo, 1989) and La hacienda ganadera de Bayamo (La Habana: Editorial de Ciencias Sociales, 1995). Sponsored by FIU's Cuban Research Institute (CRI). Lecture will be in Spanish. 
El Jigue 1-12-071208.65.188.149 18:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Castro's first recruitment as a communist

message: Why is Cuba not on the list of countries that violate religious freedoms or even the list of countries that are labeled "enemies of the web". By the phrase "enemies of the web", I indicate countries whose Internet works are put under political manipulation. 72.194.116.63 04:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cuba's religion and Internet network 

message: You might want to add something about censorship in Cuba to this page because it will give the reader more information about Cuba or at least make a link to the "Censorship in Cuba" page. This will give the reader more information about Cuba and its strict laws...and etc. This will give you some information about how this article should be improved more and better...
I just hope this can make this article at little better but I think it will make the article way better than before and please do not block me because I was just trying to help to make this page better and have more information..
lucky333123 02:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Censorship

message: Cuba's debt to the Spain is believed to be 1.7 million billion should have read a billion euros  El Jigue 208.65.188.149 15:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed it is a full stop in the UK, EJ. I imagine the debt to Spain is related to the joint partnerships between the two countries in the tourist industry. Typically, Cuba negotiated with Spanish industry to share ownership of hotels and other projects, then turned round to the Spanish and said that as they were on Cuba soil, they were under direct control of the Cuban government! I've added your link to the economy page for future reference.-- Zleitzen(talk) 18:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cuba's debt to Spain

message: Cuba, China pledge to build on growing trade -- It would be safe to say China is probably now Cuba's most importaint ally. CaribDigita 23:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interesting new stats on amount of Chinese goods in Cuba 

message: Mone Borrego, Julián Antonio 2007 (accessed 4-2-07) 
Health in Cuba, the two faces of a myth, Misceláneas de Cuba  2007-04-02 | Mone Borrego, Julián Antonio 2007 (accessed 4-2-07) 
Health in Cuba, the two faces of a myth, Misceláneas de Cuba  2007-04-02 | 
cited by El Jigue208.65.188.149 13:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Data on Cuban heath from dissident sources

message: Looks more black than Chinese to me. LOL —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dualldual (talk • contribs) 03:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chinese Girl 

message: Isn't Castro the dictator of cuba?
-Mrsanitazier
He was now his brother Raul is in charge. However, stating such in Wikipedia, is considered by many to merely point of view  El Jigue 208.65.188.149 22:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dictatorship 

message: As has been pointed out a good number of times, access to higher education in Cuba is dependent on adherence to Cuban Government doctrines, most commonly indicated by membership in the Cuban Communist Party.  Thus it is not correct to state that university education is accessible to all.  Have inserted references to this a number of times but this caveat has always been removed. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 22:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: EJ, have added "Education has a strong political and ideological emphasis, and students progressing to higher education are expected to have a commitment to the goals of the Cuban government."  Your party membership detail is certainly not the case. As you know, the number of people attending higher education in Cuba far outweighs party membership, so it is an impossibility.-- Zleitzen(talk) 02:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

text: EJ, the source chosen was the World Bank. But this was to reference your point above, not to reference the level of literacy pre-1959. Which isn't mentioned in this article other than that standards were comparatively high. So we seem to be at total cross purposes.-- Zleitzen(talk) 15:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

text: EJ, I sympathise with your rant. But having spent the last week simultaneously arguing against both a communist pro-Castro editor (see my talk page) and an anti-Communist extremist about the neutrality of the same page (El Che), I feel another period of gloom approaching. By the way, you're both wrong on the Communist party membership education issue, I guarantee it  {:> But to perhaps lighten the mood, you could head over to Timeline of Cuban history where I threw a few basic edits together, but which desperately requires your input.- Zleitzen(talk) 19:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Goatboy, responding to those who disagree about something on an encyclopedia article with statements such as "How much are they paying you?" says a lot more about your attitude to inquiry and debate than it does about anything else. I wish someone was paying me for this endeavour, I think I deserve it considering the crap I put up with on a regular basis. Your latest edit can be added to my collection. Last week I was accused by an editor of writing anti-Cuban government "slander falling short of propaganda" and my "machinations" were "completly evident to those of us who can see the reeking anti-Che, anticommunist, POV". So I'm pretty used to partisans coming here and spouting off some wild-eyed, straw man baloney by now and using me as a scapegoat to exercise some axe they have to grind. Not very interesting or helpful.-- Zleitzen(talk) 06:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Indeed EJ. A clear copybook, free from incidents of "ideological controversy" seems to be a marker for progression to elitist circles - not party membership. Also apolitical types who stay clear of the radar can progress unimpeded. By the way, recall that many of the leading dissidents, some highly educated doctors and economists, were never communist party members in their youth. And we must have all met educated Cubans who were neither members of the youth or adult parties. I certainly have, regardless of Goatboy's stories. Your comparison to early twentieth century England seems apt. Conveying the "invisible straitjacket" within policies and making sure it meets WP:V and WP:NPOV is our challenge. -- Zleitzen(talk) 16:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Educational access

message: Will work on it as time permits
It seems to me that the statement:
"# 1538 Slave rebellion comprising of African and indigenous slaves is crushed."
refers to the Guama rebellion, which was in essence indigenous, is a little early for the mixed race Cimarrones of the Palenques. A better title "Guama's Rebellion" as well as a broader time interval since my memory of my readings suggests a span of at least ten years, might be used; by the way this rebellion was apparently defeated because of Guama's adultery with the wife of his brother, there are all kinds of juicy details......  For sexual playfulness it is hard to beat the Tainos (;>) El Jigue 4-6-07208.65.188.149 16:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Time line