Talk:Pope Pius XII/Archive 9

message: :::This is what I put in a year ago:
:::Cardinal Pacelli played a large part in the internal affairs of Germany all his life . He was Nuncio from 1917 before becoming Secretary of State . The remaining dispute should not rest on his anti-semitism during his Papacy but more rightly on his initial involvement with the Nazi Party . Papen had been a leader of the Catholic Zentrums Party and the history centres on Pacelli's involvement with the Zentrums Party leadership in 1932 . According to the most noteable foreign journalist present in Berlin and who was effectively expelled by Hitler as a first act of his subsequent Chancellorship , Pacelli wrote a letter to the Zentrum , which was read out by the Party leader( Monsignor Ludwig Kaas ) at a central meeting in May ,1932 . This stated that the Pope was worried by the rise of Communism in Germany and that he therefore advised that they support Hitler's Chancellorship . The following March 28 the Fulda Bishop's Conference backed the Nazi's and in April Rome had refused to issue a condemnation of anti-semitism . A further time-line of visits and co-operation between Hitler and Rome indeed suggests complete co-ordination in a complex series of manoeuvres that lead up to the final Concordat . As far as the Zentrums ( Catholic Centre Party) is concerned this ended with its voluntary dissolution on July 5 1933. Its' leader Monsignor Ludwig Kaas rose shortly thereafter to hold the Care of the Fabric of St. Peter's Cathedral in Rome ( a position which gave him keys and therefore unobserved access ). Kaas was the negotiator directly between Rome and Adolf Hitler firstly concerning the internal German parliamentary Enabling Act negotiations during March 20-23 ,returning from his subsequent visit to Rome on 31 March ,three days after the Fulda Bishops decision to withdraw the Church prohibition on Nazi membership .Kaas had a Private meeting with Hitler on April 2nd and the Vatican that month issued an Encyclical which not only did not condemn anti-semitism but which stated that the Holy See saw no difficulty in relationship to a "Christian Dictatorship ". Kaas relinquished the Zentrum leadership on April 6 , presumably in order to both deflect suspicion over these connections made in the quid pro quo of the Enabling Act and to channel communications for the coming Concordat. Kaas and Papen travelled secretly to Rome where Pacelli on April 9 receives first Kaas and then Papen Apr 10 . Goering and Papen are received also Apr 10 by Pope Pius XI , who expressed pleasure at the appearance of a strong man in Germany(Hitler) . Apr 15 Kaas and Papen meet Pacelli and Monsignor Kaas is deputed to draft the terms of the Concordat whereby Catholic Confessional schools and civil-servants are protected . The draft is studied by Cardinal Pacelli and Pius XI on Apr 18 and on Apr 20 Kaas sends a birthday greeting to Adolf Hitler in a widely disseminated public gesture in which Hitler is assured of un-flinching Papal co-operation . In the following days Ambassadorial reports confirm that Pacelli approves sincere co-operation by the Church to benefit and lead the Nazi Party within the Christian Weltanschauung . As Kaas never again set foot in Germany the intermediary becomes Papen who hardens his position as far as publicly calling on Jun 15 for the overthrow of Liberalism and for a Christian counter-revolution to 1789 (French Revolution). Hitler agrees to Papen's representation to Rome in order to finalise the Concordat where Papen arrives on Jun 29 . The British Ambassador to Germany is informed that same day that the zentrumspartei will dissolve itself the following day . Hitler telephones von Papen in Rome and Papen cables German Foreign Minister von Neurath on Jul 3 to the effect that he , Cardinal Pacelli , Archbishop Groeber and Monsignor Kaas had signed the conclusive draft of the concordat , and that the Zentrums' dissolution is certain and approved . The Catholic Centre Party publishes its dissolution and Jul 8 the German vice-Chancellor and Cardinal Pacelli formally sign the Concordat( the same day the Nazi salute is instituted within Germany) . 
:::In April 2005 I added {disputed}, ten days later I added{protected}. earlier I had tried to include:
:::The questions arising from the Concordat have re-surfaced of late because of the moves toward canonisation for Pope Pius XII, and recent reference to the Enabling act in the book Memoria e Identidad by Pope John Paul II, who cites it as an example of the dangers associated with Liberal Parliamentary Democracy. However the Concordat represents most clearly the opposite dangers to a Democracy from a Church .
:::By end April thew  above was reduced to:
:::Cardinal Pacelli allegedly(Disputed) played a large part in the internal affairs of Germany all his life. He was the Papal Nuncio in Bavaria from 1917 before becoming Secretary of State. As Nuncio, in a letter dated November 14, 1923, to Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Pietro Gasparri, Pacelli denounced the National Socialist movement as an anti-Catholic and anti-Hebrew threat and remarks that Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Munich had condemned acts of persecution against Bavaria's Jews. However, in 1933 during Mar 20-23 the Enabling act negotiations were undertaken for Cardinal Pacelli by his close friend and lifelong associate Monsignor Ludwig Kaas, leader of the Zentrum party. Kaas followed this by immediately reporting to Cardinal Pacelli in the Vatican before then returning by April 2 for a private meeting with Adolf Hitler. Faulhaber was also prevailed upon to accede by public recomendation of the Fuhrer preceding the plebiscite for the withdrawal of Germany from the League of Nations. 
   
:::Then 26 april
:::In June 1933 Adolf Hitler had signed a peace agreement with most of Europe, called the Four-Power Pact. Hitler later wrote to Rome to negotiate a statewide concordat with Rome. As Papal Secretary of State to Pius XI, Pacelli signed a concordat with Germany (see image). This was shortly after Germany had signed similar agreements with all Protestant churches in Germany.
:::As you see , 9 April Papen had become laterthan  June 1933 ! On 4 may the  relevant cultural fact was removed, after much of the preceding had been removed by str1977, as in the anon excision here:
:::Rolf Hochhuth's 1963 play Der Stellvertreter. Ein christliches Trauerspiel (The Deputy, a Christian tragedy) fiercely criticized Pope Pius XII's behaviour during the Nazi regime in Germany. Warren Hinckle, editor of the liberal Catholic quarterly Ramparts called the play "dramaturgically flawed", but formed a committee to defend the play as a matter of free speech.  
:::But  Str continues to excise  in early May 2005: The farce over the Pope's health and treatment in death caused considerable embarrassment to the Vatican, but in the 1950s was not reported, though widely rumoured among those in Rome who had witnessed the body's decay as it lay in state, as well as being captured in photographs. (See Catholic website below.) One of the first acts of Pius' successor, Pope John XXIII, was to ban the charlatan from Vatican City for life.
:::Links taken such as :Article on 'Pope Pius XII and the Jews' 
:::Article on 'Pope Pius XII and the Jews' 
:::I return and try again with:In his June 3 Enciclical Dilectissima Nobis countering separation of church and state , Pius XI stated that the church finds no difficulty in adapting herself to various civil institutions , be they monarchic or republican , aristocratic or democratic provided the divine rights of God and of Christian consciences are safe . In germany at this time the term would have been that of christian dictatorship 
:::and : Although the Papacy had since 1925 been using the Centre Party as a tool of vatican policy , this was never successful in eradicating the dangers of socialism and republicanism and by 1933 the papal policy was to abandon the catholic democrats ,and ally itself with first the rightist, industrialist forces of the nationalists and then with the Nazi force of dictatorship
:::and :Reports of complicity towards restoration of the monarchy suggest great care by the vatican to avoid evidential remains .
:::I  tried to replace , after sam Spade had been overseeing , on 4-9 may :Critics cite the very opposite dangers , of the successful destabilisation of a democracy by a church .
:::Str1977 removes the TV report of Jewiish consternation at the late John Paul II'd Book[] and then rv's :Great anger amongst Jewish groups arose following an associated reference to Abortion as the new Holocaust
:::I added in july, as it is the first time a court has denied vatican sovereign Immunity: The heaviest critic of Pope Pius XII is an American of x-Yugoslav origin who is bringing forward a federal court case against the vatican concerning allegations that Croation Franciscan - Ustashe Hierarchy and Priests colluded with the vatican to remove war-crime loot to the Vatican Bank during World War II . This would require the vatican to release their archives in account and would require a clear position to be taken by the present pontiff, Pope Benedict XVI , concerning related questions of the financing for Nazi and Ustashe priest rat-lines to Argentina and elsewhere . Vatican lawyers claims for diplomatic immunity failed in 2005 .
:::2 August str1977 adds :However there is no proof of any connection between the Enabling Act and the Concordat.
:::On 7 august[] I try and complete , then add[]The quid pro quo with Adolf Hitler lives in histories relating to this descent of Europe into barbarity and war . In terms of the Holocaust itself Pius not having spoken out for the Jews publicly by name , nor in strong and explicit condemnation of Nazism is noted .It is recently argued (see Hitler's Pope that Pacelli himself was a lifelong anti-semite who otherwise could have seriously undermined Hitler and Nazism among Germany's many catholics. While the world was divided politically and geographically, many catholics were united behind their Pope, and followed his lead into their own personal accomodations with Hitlerism .      
:::Had Pope Pius XII denounced Nazism in the strongest possible terms, it is possible that it could have not only caused unrest amongst catholics in the German army, but it could have also caused catholics working in German war factories to undermine German army support and logistics systems. This would have dealt a serious blow to the German war effort. Conversely, such action probably would have caused heavy suppression of Catholics, given that Nazism was more focused on Protestantism in the first place. 
:::Such speculation does not form any part of the German Resistance ( Widerstand ) studies .    
:::Pius XII has also recently been heavily attacked by Bill Dorich, an American journalist and activist of Serbian descent. He has brought forth a federal court case against the Vatican for its alleged collusion in war crimes by the Croatian Ustashe and even more ominously , fo secreting large vaults of croatian war-loot into the Vatican coffers. the suit alleges that this was used to finance yet more of the almost 'mythic' rat-lines mentioned in ODESSA . This secret vatican re-location and funding of implicated Nazi and Ustashe priests and monks to largely South America is a subject in Biil Dorich's Federal suit . 
Enough to show you that I tried. I could do better these days, were it possible. PS  I see these guys are gunning for the sourced Rhenish-Westphalian Industrial Magnates. They have it down for deletion, Such bad faith-it is sourced. How bout voting against source then? Against History itself!EffK 21:59, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Answer re Flamekeeper, Famekeeper/EffK input excised

message: One Source for wartime intermediaryship by Pope Pius XII can be see at p 491 in Sir John Wheeler-Bennett's The Nemesis of Power. Ex-smith College Klemens von Klemperer's German Resistance Against Hitler  , deals extensively with the two attempts. Wheeler-Bennett says all he knows, which is less, but mentions that "According to what [Dr. Josef] Müller reported from Rome to his principals in Berlin, the Pope was was apparently prepared to go to surprising lengths in his understanding of German interests" upon the first attempt in 1940 to achieve a 'soft-peace' or a removal of Hitler without other penalty to Germany. This  Widerstand attempt was made before Churchill's premiership .There was a second  Reichswehr Generals' attempt in 1943, which still hoped for soft terms, with no favour shown by the British. Both attempts were tenuously chanelled through curious intermediaries, and Pius was extremely careful to ensure complete secrecy, for obvious reason. Ludwig Kaas was behind the Central papal intermediary,a Father Lieber involved in the first exchanges, but over-seeing for Pius in the second. The Gestapo discovered the second attempt after the event, the records of which fell into their hands.
"The Holy Father was prepared to act as intermediary for an understanding with Britain ,[ on the first attempt,] on the following terms:
:::The removal of the Nazi Regime.
:::The formation of a new German Government and the restoration of the Rechstaat in Germany.
:::No attack on the West by either side.
:::The settlement of the Eastern question in favour of Germany.
The terms were unchanged at the second attempt. the Eastern question involved the reason for World War II, being that of the Polish Corridoor and Danzig/German territory. "The report for 1940 purported to show that the British Government ( of Neville Chamberlain) were actually ready for an understanding on these conditions." Recently the British Parliamentarian Michael Foot sttated that if this had happened , he would have personally stabbed Lord Halifax, and that revolution would have resulted.
EffK 11:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pius and 'Soft peace' with Nazi Germany