Talk:James Vann

message: James Vann grew up and lived in the household of his father, John, Clement, or Joseph Vann, a Scots-Irish trader who lived among but apart from the Cherokee who surrounded him.  Thoroughly acculturated, he never had anything to do with the Cherokee clan system and was indeed one of the chief instigators of its destruction.  The one and only reason to mention the clan system is not because it is in any way relevant to James Vann but because one is attempting to push an idea that really is not valid. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 18:01, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: On page 3 of the Cherokee Observer, the part about the Cherokee matrilineal clan system refers to women's suffrage and has nothing to do with property.  Also, the reference listed has information for no later than 1785, with nothing about the time when James Vann was the wealthiest man not only in the Cherokee Nation but the entire continent east of the Mississippi.  Finally, the article is about James Vann, not the Cherokee clan system, so unless you can provide sources which directly related to James Vann himself, random facts about the Cherokee clans are inappropriate and out of place.  There is, however, somewhere were such information not only belongs but is probably needed: Cherokee clans.  If you can provide source material that James Vann shared his lands and wealth with members of the Wild Potato Clan or that accounts of hius will and its execution are the fantasies of historians of the time as well as forgeries placed into the records of the Cherokee Nation and of the United States, I would be surprised.  Vann, not his wife, not the clan, Vann and Vann alone controlled and bequeathed his property. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 19:40, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried to clean up some of the refs (as in identifying what article in the newspaper was being referenced), moved the inheritance info to the "Legacy" section where the will was already discussed, and explained what the Act of Oblivion did. I question if "geni.com" qualifies as a reliable source, but I'll leave that to another editor to decide; however, I did remove a conclusion not found in that genealogy forum page that was cited, since that falls under Wikipedia:No original research. -Uyvsdi (talk) 17:03, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, sounds good.  I've got better references but all my books are in Paris, France.  I'm in Chattanooga, Tennessee.  The best treatment of it is in Cherokee Renaessance in the New Republic.  Vann and his protoges, Charles Hicks and Major Ridge, were at the forefront of the "young chiefs" who wanted to adopt more of the white man's ways as a defence against encroachment by whites from the United States.  The three were often referred to then, and now by historians, as the Cherokee Triumvirate.  I'll see if they have that book at the library in the meantime so I can add citations. There's a reference to the Act of Oblivion in Mooney, too.  That article in the Cherokee Observer referred to an act by the National Committee enacting the same provisions; the actual Act of Oblivion was the confirmation of the 1808 law.  I noticed too that even though those who signed did so in the name of the Seven Clans, they were all men. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 22:48, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Geni.com, like Find-a-Grave and IMDB, is a reader-contributor site, which are not considered Reliable Sources by Wikipedia.  If a secondary source is cited in an entry on Geni.com, it could be used as an RS.Parkwells (talk) 18:28, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think anyone really knows who James Vann's father is.  Probably Vann himself wasn't completely sure.  I've seen enough geneaological alleged information that has turned out to be fantasy or outright falsehood to take online references too seriously.  Even from seemingly reliable sources, such as Emmet Starr.  Such sites are a major source of all the "Moytoy dynasty" misinformation. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 19:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You should've seen this article when I first started working on it a couple of years ago.  It was pretty bad. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 22:33, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I can imagine - you've made many valuable contributions to so many of the Cherokee articles.  It would really help people like me, who do want to learn, if you would include inline cites with source info and page numbers (where appropriate), so we wouldn't have to hunt all over for the information in the books and other materials you reference. I often like to follow up with sources to learn more for myself, but appreciate the help of having cites to follow. Also, your cites would indicate which sources you found most valuable for different kinds of information, or about different people.  But, thanks for your work.Parkwells (talk) 22:53, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you too.  I'll keep all that stuff in mind.  Sometimes when I don't include a citation it's because the incident or information is in so many sources it seems to me to be beyond question, like the Catlett's Station massacre, so I just assume people know about it already. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 01:59, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  James Vann and the Cherokee clan system 

message: Genealogy Trails appears to be a volunteer site, not suitable as RS. It looks as if much of the information came verbatim from the North Georgia and other sites.Parkwells (talk) 20:14, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Genealogy Trails not RS