Talk:Great Tribulation

message: The Reference New Testament Revelations 7:14 is inaccurate, "the great tribulation" should read "great tribulation" only. Nowhere in ancient Hebrew or Greek does this verse reference a certain period of time, rather tribulation all those in Christ go through. Jesus stated one will go through much tribulation entering into the Kingdom of God, this is the meaning of Revelation 7:14.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8004:20E0:2B4B:B698:57DE:1FE0:C96 (talk) 00:12, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

message: I made the mistake of leaping before I got a good look at the whole article. I removed a reference to WWIII, which deviated from any scholarly description of the events explicitly foretold in Revelations. Had I read the rest of the article, I would have seen that it is rife with such predictions. These eschatological interpretations of scripture would be better suited to an article of their own; one expressly for that purpose. Such surmising is not appropriate in an objective description of Revelations. I'm not prepared to go and remove everything, as I'm something of an interloper, but I strongly encourage someone with more clout to do so. -- Volfied
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There could probably also be something said about pre- and post-millenialism, and about the "pantribulationist" position: never mind the details, it will all pan out in the end. I've actually heard that last one quite a bit, in several different circles.  ;-)  --Wesley
what about Preterism?
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:According to Pretribulationism, all Christians then alive will be taken bodily up to heaven (called the rapture or Parousia) before the Tribulation begins, although many who become Christians before the rapture will live through (or perish during) the Tribulation.
Who exactly will have to live through the Tribulation? --AxelBoldt
As I understand it, pretribulationists believe that Jesus will come and take away all the Christian believers at the time of the Rapture. All non-Christians (including Christians who aren't 'real' Christians) will remain on earth, and will have to live through or more likely die during the Tribulation. However, during the time of the Tribulation, many of the non-Christians left behind by the Rapture will become Christians. These new Christians will have to live through the Tribulation, or die or be martyred during it. At the end, Jesus will return for those who became Christians during the Tribulation, and to deal with (consign to hell?) the rest. -- SJK
:So the passage in question should be reworded to 'although many who will become Christians after the rapture...'? EddEdmondson 13:48, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: you just have to have faith and believe in God.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.88.137 (talk) 05:08, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: So, you're basically saying, "Since no one's ever seen God, God doesn't exist!" That's stupid. LOL 71.213.134.121 (talk) 20:49, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delusion 

message: “The Tribulation would have ended, according to this understanding, at the restoration of the nation of Israel in 1948 or at the return of Jerusalem to Jewish control in 1967.”
I am puzzled by this conclusion for this is not the historicist viewpoint as I know it. The historicist viewpoint believes the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation represent the entire history of the church up to Christ's Second Coming and the establishment of the new kingdom under Christ – not a fulfillment of the restoration of physical Israel. The historicist viewpoint recognizes that all references to Israel after Christ’s first coming now represent spiritual Israel – not physical Israel.
:: Agree, that section needs a complete rewrite. Based on the original text of Matt 24, Great Tribulation is said to have began sometime after AD 70 Roman invasion. But we are talking about tribulation on God's people, Christians. It is the same period of "persecution of the saints" Historicist view as during the dark ages of 1260 years from 538 to 1798.
:: Mat 24 goes with other text about the "falling away" which happened after the "restrainer was removed". This is seen as the fall of the Roman empire (restrainer) and rise of the papacy (little horn) who "changed times and laws" (falling away from truth). The "Great Trib" then began as "persecution of the saints" (Dn.7, Rv.13) and continued until the end of the 1260 years, as we read "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" (Mat.24:29, Mk.13:24, Rv.6:12,13). Historicist of the SDA view the stars falling and the great earthquake began in late 18th century, as a meteor shower that happened at that time, and the Lisbon earthquake, thus Great Tribulation ended in late 18th century and these signs began after tribulation. There are many SDA bible study guides based on pioneer Uriah Smith's Daniel and Revelation, pp.437-448 and Ellen White's Great Controversy. None of this has anything to do with Jews or the physical state of Israel after 70 A.D. FYI, there are some historicist who view the earthquake and stars falling of the 6th seal as symbolic happenings within the Roman Empire, not literal events.75.120.184.233 (talk) 21:54, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical View 

message: Is it allowed to actually state what all the things in the Revelation actually are in relation to the tribulation.Or is actual information not allowed? Let me know; I AM WRITING A BOOK ABOUT IT. If information is allowed let me know; rather than speculation.  ```` 
 Unicorn 144
          
As stated, the historicist sees the papacy as the fulfillment of the "Little Horn Power" referenced in Daniel 7:24. It also sees the papacy as the harlot woman in Revelation 17 with the vision of the terrible seven headed/ten horned beast in Daniel as the same - just different characteristics.
   Daniel 7:24
   The ten horns are ten kings
    Who shall arise from this kingdom.
    And another shall rise after them;
    He shall be different from the first ones,
    And shall subdue three kings.
The historicist viewpoint believes the statue vision in Daniel Chapter 2 is the entire history of the church up until Christ's Second Coming with the rock that crushes as Christ's Second Coming. This is a different viewpoint than the Preterist and Futurists. Here is a comparison of the different viewpoints:
   Statue                  Historicist     Preterist    Futurist
   Head of Gold            Babylon         Babylon      Babylon
   Chest/arms of Silver    Media-Persia    Media        Media-Persia
   Thighs of Bronze        Greece          Persia       Greece
   Legs of Iron            Pagan Rome      Greece       Pagan Rome
   Feet of Iron & Clay     Papal Rome      Pagan Rome   Pagan Rome
The historicist viewpoint considers the different prophecies given in Daniel as the same prophecies; just different characteristics which help identify the kingdoms and events in history. That the idea that God gives prophecy in multiple forms was established in Genesis 41 where God gave the pharaoh of Egypt the vision of the seven cows (fat and thin) and the seven heads of grain (plump and blighted). Daniel chapter 8 provides the vision of the goat and the ram which allows us to identify Media-Persia and Greece as the next two kingdoms. The ten horns of the “terrible beast” allow us to identify the ten gothic tribes that destroyed pagan Rome with the three uprooted as the destroyed empires of the Vandals, Heruli and Ostrogoth’s. So and so forth…
The historicist also considers the idea of “seven years of tribulation” as a gross error and misinterpretation of scripture. The idea of the “seven years of tribulation” is the foundation of the “secret rapture” and “dispensationalism”. The error being that the seven years of Daniel’s prophecy where fulfilled in Christ’s first advent and has nothing to do with Christ’s Second Coming. That the scripture of Daniel 9:26 states:
     Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
That this reference parallels Isaiah’s reference in chapter 53:8
     For He was cut off from the land of the living;
Both making reference to the crucifixion of Christ.
Thus it is the Messiah/Jesus Christ that is "cut off" - not the week. That the "seventieth week of Daniel" has already been fulfilled. That the Futurist interpretations which includes all the variations of the "tribulation" are Biblically incorrect with saying the "week was cut off".
Joe Cipriani
--CipriaJ9999 12:43, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sufic View 

message: I posted links to articles I have written on several subjects in Wikipedia. Most of them were removed shortly after, including this article. Two days later, I am still getting hits coming from these articles and the links are not there. How is that possible?  User:goodseed
The links on this article are not described as per WP:EL.  Also some of them seem to point to, for want of a better word, idiosyncratic views.  Can someone who knows more about the subject than I do at least add descriptions to assist in assessing what the links are about please? - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 13:34, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: "It is believed and accepted..."?  Not by me.  Can we get some NPOV?  User:The_dogandpony
* This certainly is not the view of the roman catholic church. I am not an expert on the different other christian views, but I am quite certain that some more tend to disagree. This article is certainly POV. --84.178.104.14 18:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: This article does not show a lack of neutrality.  It is in fact quite a neutral view point and academic in tone.  That the topic is likely not fully explored is only appropriate for such a broad scope as a prophetic intrepetive of the 'end of days'.  There are volumes and tomes on this topic, none of which is alone complete, authoritative or comprehensive.  This article can not hope to contain more than an overview and to serve as an index to the thought, a lenghty definition of the 'term' -- in this case it is a dictionary entry for the lexicon symbol whose replete representation is not available until history writes the story at some future time -- if there can be imagined such a time;  and it is THIS potentiality which raises NON_NEUTRALITY, for the opposition to tribulation is that the concept is simple legend, an exaggeration of human events.  Today we see similarities to the prophecies.  Yet there have before been crises of time that could as well be interpreted.  No doubt the future holds ample opportunity for similtude.  Nevertheless, it is just as likely that the future lies far more distant in time than we would like.  It is also likely that the conflicts of time will be resolved, not unlike they have been in the past.  Though there are threats that seem ultimate, even completely destructive, there is also reason to expect resolution to arrive just as it is required.  In otherwords, we can 'foresee' tribulation;  yet we cannot foretell the future 72.244.112.35 15:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adequate 

message: The article is scarcely neutral. Consider 
: A burning mountain plummets into the sea (This could refer to an asteroid striking the earth, ...
Well, yes - I suppose it could. Or it could refer to a burning mountain as in "who ever commandeth this mountain, be thou removed into the sea". Or it might refer to an ordinary volcano (isn't Vesuvius due?). Or it might be a drug-induced hallucination and not "refer" to anything.
:  A star called Wormwood falls onto the Earth  ... (This is believed to be a comet ...
Belived by whom? John? Certainly not - comets were signs in the heavens, not physical objects that might actually hit the earth
: These are most likely demonic locusts
Most likely! Most likely! Personally, I think it is "most likely" that demons do not exist at all. Perhaps the article might say that it is most likelty that John meant that the locustys are demonic - but then you get into the question of how the heck the writer of this article knw what John meant.
: Painful sores (possibly boils or carbuncles 
Possibly ... or possibly not. Many people think that these sores are a result of the godless heathen getting AIDS as a result of their vile sexual practises.
: Sun burns with intense heat and scorches people (This is an intense heat plague, 
A "heat plague"? Eh? What's that?
::Just what it says: intense sunburn, and serves you all right! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PiCo (talk • contribs) 10:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears that the article has scarcely improved in the last year...--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is anything but objective and not at all scholarly. I was looking for objective information on the tribulation, but instead what I found was something that's written like a tract warning of end times, complete with a book advertisement ("In late August of 2008, the book Tribulation: 2008 was released"). This book is a self-published book on LuLu.com and is hardly a book that is widely read; this paragraph was clearly added to promote an author's self-published book. Jeffcogs (talk) 13:56, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: This section is full of weasel words. We hear that "some believe" this or "it is held by some" that without any citations of who holds it or why. If the person entering that simply made it up themselves, then it is original research, although "research" is putting it politely. "Sheer speculation" would be fairer.
The whole section, IMO, should be cut down to
===Revelation's Sequence of Events===
Here is a list of events mentioned in the book of Revelation, some of which (usually attributed to the seven trumpets) occur during the Great Tribulation period:
====Seven Seals====
* The White Horse of the Apocalypse. When he comes, he is given a crown and he goes out as a conquerer bent on conquest
* When the Red Horse comes the rider is given a large sword and he takes peace from the world, causing men to kill each other.
* When the Black Horse comes he causes  famine.
* The Pale Horse causes death (by plague).
These four are given "power over one fourth of the earth" to "kill by sword, famine, plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth".
* Martyrs begin dying during the Tribulation.
* Worldwide earthquake followed by the darkening of the sun and moon, and the stars in the sky fall to earth.
* Silence in Heaven, followed by fire being hurled to the Earth.
(Note: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, are symbols for the events of the first four seals. They represent events as seen in a vision by the John of Patmos. As they are allegorical, no horsemen are expected to be seen galloping during the tribulation. Those who believe in the literal truth of the Bible, however, expect these things to be real.)
::Inaccurate Sixth Seal Summary
::The descriptions of the solar and lunar images are inaccurate.  Both do not darken.  Only the Sun ceases to emit visible light.  The Moon assumes the appearance of blood.  In the absence of visible light, the red color could be attributed to a form of luminescence.  Additional global phenomena were presented in Revelation 6:12-17 that were omitted from the summary.  No statement was made to justify the omisions.  Tcisco 19:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seven trumpets! And here's me thinking it was seven strumpets!PiCo 03:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sequence of events 

message: Here is a list of events mentioned in the book of Revelation, some of which (usually attributed to the seven trumpets) occur during the Great Tribulation period:
====Seven Seals====
* The White Horse of the Apocalypse. When he comes, he is given a crown and he goes out as a conquerer bent on conquest
* When the Red Horse comes the rider is given a large sword and he takes peace from the world, causing men to kill each other.
* When the Black Horse comes he causes  famine.
* The Pale Horse causes death (by plague).
These four are given "power over one fourth of the earth" to "kill by sword, famine, plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth".
* Martyrs begin dying during the Tribulation.
* Worldwide earthquake followed by the darkening of the sun and moon, and the stars in the sky fall to earth.
* Silence in Heaven, followed by fire being hurled to the Earth.
(Note: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, are symbols for the events of the first four seals. They represent events as seen in a vision by the John of Patmos. As they are allegorical, no horsemen are expected to be seen galloping during the tribulation. Those who believe in the literal truth of the Bible, however, expect these things to be real.)
::Inaccurate Sixth Seal Summary
::The descriptions of the solar and lunar images are inaccurate.  Both do not darken.  Only the Sun ceases to emit visible light.  The Moon assumes the appearance of blood.  In the absence of visible light, the red color could be attributed to a form of luminescence.  Additional global phenomena were presented in Revelation 6:12-17 that were omitted from the summary.  No statement was made to justify the omisions.  Tcisco 19:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seven trumpets! And here's me thinking it was seven strumpets!PiCo 03:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Revelation's Sequence of Events

message: * The White Horse of the Apocalypse. When he comes, he is given a crown and he goes out as a conquerer bent on conquest
* When the Red Horse comes the rider is given a large sword and he takes peace from the world, causing men to kill each other.
* When the Black Horse comes he causes  famine.
* The Pale Horse causes death (by plague).
These four are given "power over one fourth of the earth" to "kill by sword, famine, plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth".
* Martyrs begin dying during the Tribulation.
* Worldwide earthquake followed by the darkening of the sun and moon, and the stars in the sky fall to earth.
* Silence in Heaven, followed by fire being hurled to the Earth.
(Note: The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, are symbols for the events of the first four seals. They represent events as seen in a vision by the John of Patmos. As they are allegorical, no horsemen are expected to be seen galloping during the tribulation. Those who believe in the literal truth of the Bible, however, expect these things to be real.)
::Inaccurate Sixth Seal Summary
::The descriptions of the solar and lunar images are inaccurate.  Both do not darken.  Only the Sun ceases to emit visible light.  The Moon assumes the appearance of blood.  In the absence of visible light, the red color could be attributed to a form of luminescence.  Additional global phenomena were presented in Revelation 6:12-17 that were omitted from the summary.  No statement was made to justify the omisions.  Tcisco 19:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Seven Seals

message: * Hail, fire, and blood fall upon the earth, burning one-third of the earth, trees, and grass.
* A burning mountain plummets into the sea, turning a third of the sea to blood and destroying a third of all ships on the sea and creatures in it.
* A star called Wormwood falls onto the Earth poisoning the freshwater sources such as streams and rivers.
* Sun, stars and moon are darkened by one-third.
* Plague of indestructible locusts ravage the wicked forces of the Antichrist, inflicting endless pain. Many will try to kill themselves from the pain, but "death will flee from them". There is mention that believers will be sealed by God first, and the locusts will not attack them upon seeing God's seal on them.
* Over 200 million horsemen kill one-third of wicked left on Earth with massive strikes, fire, and smoke.
* Lightning, hailstorm, and earthquakes.
::Seven trumpets! And here's me thinking it was seven strumpets!PiCo 03:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Seven Trumpets

message: This entire section is original research.  It needs to be removed unless the interpretation is sourced, and differences between sects are explained, again with verification Superm401 - Talk 09:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sourcing needed

message: Some facts might be helpful; for instance the identity of the two beasts of Revelation as the 3-in-one as the Axis and the false prophet as the beast of Marxism. ````Unicorn144````Feb. 20, 2007 (UTC)
Even with this pruning, it is still petty unencyclopaedic. And it fails to provide a precis of the sequence of events (the 144000, the woman and the dragon, the witnesses, the fall of babylon, the judgment).
Really, this whole section ether needs redoing, or should be removed. But at the very least, all the speculation about what the apostle "might" have meant or what "some belive" the words actually mean should definitely go ASAP.
Paul Murray 19:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: =The Sufic View

message: I hope that now my book is close to being published I will not have to worry about quoting what OTHERS have said about these things: like christian theologicians and savants in our present day!Unicorn144 18:00, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Having to try once again to add some clarity to this entire area of hypothetical inquiry 

message: This file should be modified to to meet POV standards. 
The chart should include represtitive views of the Postmillennialism and Amillennialism positions-- that there is no tribulation, I would think. If there are other important views, please note them as well. The chart should should also indicate (in the caption I suppose) that these are represtitive views-- and may not agree even with every view of that school of eschatological thought.
If anyone knows of other non-Futurism views/other tribulation views please note them now as well!  15:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm looking at it again, and it is hard as the dickens to figure out what's going on. I guess the Blue Arrows are meant to be the bowls of wrath coming down from God? Or something? Does this great big image add value?--Nemonoman (talk) 15:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking at it again I see that key items are not labled. I didn't notice that before as I already knew how they should be labled. (I believe the green arrow is the raptured church, and the blue arrow is Christ coming to meet the raptured church in the air, and red is Christ's full return.) Of course by tring to comunicate too much the creator as comunicated too little. It is fine with me if we just take the chart down for this reason until it is improved. 16:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  File:Tribulation views.svg 

message: Why is this page even needed? There is a page on the Book of Revelation, pages on each of the four Christian eschatological views, and a page on the Chronology of Revelation. This page duplicates content from all those pages and doesn't add anything of value regarding it's supposed subject - the Tribulation - which could in itself simply be a sub-section of one of the other pages. Since this page itself is poorly written, it seems like it's a good candidate for deletion. Skinrider (talk) 02:37, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that there is duplicate content. I'm going to move the Book of Revelation part to the chronology page and try to fix that page as well... since its in real bad shape. This outline is very good though and belongs over there. This "Tribulation" page should stay though, because it is an important piece but got lost in a clutter of other topics. Jasonasosa (talk) 01:49, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Article deletion

message: Three eschatological viewpoints of the Book of Revelation are not a sufficient replacement for the different viewpoints of the Great Tribulation. As it reads in the lead paragraph, the Tribulation spans over more parts of the Bible than simply just Revelation, including the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 and elsewhere. Therefore, this article should not simply be replaced with a link to various interpretations of Revelation alone. Cognate247 (talk) 16:41, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that was bad Skinrider (talk). Editing is not just about gutting out articles. We have to find ways of improving existing material by adding more referenced content or moving content to pages that need help.Jasonasosa (talk) 17:44, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The eschatology pages needed help, Jasonasosa. So the changes were about moving content to pages that need help. If there's really more that needs to be said about The Great Tribulation, then, well, say it! Skinrider (talk) 12:55, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

text: The common problem among all these eschatology pages is that the interpreters feel the need to put their interpretations on every page. For the ]]Book of Revelation]], the Great Tribulation, the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, the Whore of Babylon, etc, every page has to have a subsection for each of the interpretation pages. And then you'll find the interpreters arguing over biased descriptions, terminology, etc. All of these eschatology pages would be stronger if (1) the source material were uncluttered by interpretations, allowing somebody trying to use Wikipedia as an encyclopedia to find npov information and (2) the interpretations were compiled on each of their respective pages (Futurism, Historicism, etc). The latter will also allow somebody trying to understand Christian eschatology to see all relevant information on an eschatological view in one place. 
The fact that, after removing the interpretations of the Great Tribulation there isn't much left of this page does not mean we should bring back the interpretation information (which is very well suited for the interpretation pages). What it means is that more non-interpretive information about the Great Tribulation should be added. Or the page should be refactored out and deleted. Skinrider (talk) 13:07, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

text: Skinrider, your points are valid and well-founded. My point in reverting your edit was simply to point out that your solution to the problem was not sufficient. The Great Tribulation is not only limited to the book of Revelation. These various interpretations of the Tribulation that you speak of come from many parts of the Bible, including Revelation but not limited to it. That's why simply linking readers of this article to the various interpretations of Revelation isn't sufficient. As it stands, this article is necessary because there simply is no sufficient alternative in order to fully describe what Christians believe about the Great Tribulation. Where this article lacks, however, (and I believe that this is your point) is the most important imformation, namely, what the Great Tribulation actually is. What are the events that are believed to take place during this period of time? How long will it last? etc. This sort of information should be supplemented by the information that is already here, namely, the various nuanced interpretations among different groups. However, what is currently offered in this article should not remain the main meat and potatoes of the article. Cognate247 (talk) 15:17, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

text: Cognate247, the problem is that the interpretations disagree about this information and its categorization, not just its interpretation. Matthew 24 talks about "Great Tribulation" and the Second Coming of Christ at the end of it. The main problem with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view is that it has nothing in the Bible that they can refer to that states the "rapture" will occur before the Tribulation. I have a YouTube channel where for the past two months I have been challenging them to give me anything at all. Then I look at it in the Greek for translational accuracy and then the English in context and there is nothing about it in the text. Every time without fail they are guilty of Eisegesis. And while prior to two months ago I had no view on the timing of the so-called "rapture" I have found by these last two months that the Bible explicitly forbids that view only. But it is impossible to deal with tangibles with them. They revert to saying it is a feeling they have that it is true and they don't need the Bible to say it and if you don't believe it too then you don't believe in Jesus and you won't be saved and you will go through the Tribulation and be beheaded for your obstinate belief against the Pre-Trib Rapture view and you will have to pay for your sins with your own blood because the age of grace ends with the Pre-Trib Rapture. This is exactly what I have been told many times by these cultists. They are not Christians. They are Darbyists and a cult. There is no reasoning with them to see what is written. They don't care what is written. And that is why this articles suffers. So many of them are so active to piss on anything Christian to make it as foul smelling as the yelling and swear words that come out of their mouths daily on my channel. I give up on this article until a solution can be had to keep those cultists' fingers off the article. Historian09041965 (talk) 20:21, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Great Tribulation and Book of Revelation 

message: As one who has read these passages and understands them, the whole concept of this article is wrong.
First off, is it "Great Tribulation" or "The Great Tribulation"?  I strongly suggest that this be decided first.  The article is named one and then starts out with the other.
Second, the beginning paragraph contains "The Great Tribulation is also referenced in the Book of Revelation.[2]".  This is totally unfounded and non-Scritural.  Neither of the texts given as proof refer to such a thing.
If people are going to make things up as they go, then there is no need for the Bible.  Either it is God's word and stands alone, or anyone coming along can interpret it as they wish.  This is just another example of that later problem.
As it is, this article's concept has no validity nor basis in the Bible - KitchM (talk) 23:32, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bizarre Article Concept 

message: What's with all the Greek stuff? Translation?
Why not every other language then ?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.247.71.84 (talk) 13:43, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek? 

message: Substituted at 01:11, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: This article is the straw that broke the camel's back. If we can't keep out the insane people then what's the point? We will edit the article to get rid of the cultist's views of Pre-Trib Rapture trying to taint everything they touch and all those American crazy cultists will come back and piss all over it again. I am a Biblical Scholar working on a current translation of the Bible. I have these people who have drank so much Kool-Aid I am surprised they are still alive, come to my YouTube channel screaming and swearing at me and threatening me that I will be beheaded, and that I will have to pay for my sins with my own blood, since the "Age of Grace" will have ended at the time of the Rapture, and other insane Anti-Christian ideas, etc... And they claim to hold the "true" Christian view of a Pre-Trib Rapture. There is no Spirit of Christ and of God in them. And their fingerprints are ALL OVER this article. It is so rife with problems I would just scratch the whole thing and start over. But how to keep their filthy fingers off of it? Historian09041965 (talk) 20:04, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The basics of Wikipedia: if you have no WP:RS, you have nothing. Your own word won't do. And I agree, there is nothing about a rapture in the Bible, before, during, or after the Tribulation. tgeorgescu (talk)  20:45, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think there's a few things about Wikipedia that need clearing up here. First and most importantly, you need to stop making hateful remarks about groups of people and editors ("keep their filthy fingers off of it" and other things you wrote elsewhere). It absolutely will not be tolerated. Second, and maybe I'm off base with this since I haven't actually checked out the sourcing in the article, but you should know that we aren't and shouldn't make any claims about what beliefs are or are not supported by the Bible. This group can believe whatever they want, so long their beliefs are documented by reliable sources and we summarize what's in those sources in a balanced way. Now maybe the article was stating things that weren't supported by sources at all, and it would be totally right for you to want that removed. -- Fyrael (talk) 19:08, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup, it's a reasoning made through conflating several Bible verses in a purportedly Sola Scriptura way. But like any explicit mention of the Trinity, you won't find any explicit mention of the Rapture in the Bible. The orthodox view is that the Trinity is the only way of making sense of the Bible, yet, as said before, the Trinity as a concept is never mentioned in the Bible. So, there is a difference between  and . E.g. the seven words of the dying Jesus are based upon the Bible, yet you won't find these words in any (i.e. one) book of the Bible. Those seven words are a reconstruction of what might have happened according to the Bible. So,  means a verbatim mention in the letter of the Bible, while  is always some inferences away from the plain letter of the Bible. tgeorgescu (talk)  01:25, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't mean this snarkily at all, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say about what we should include in this article. Like I stated above, as editors we aren't deciding or reporting on what's based on the Bible or mentioned in the Bible. That's irrelevant. We just report what this group believes according to reliable sources. -- Fyrael (talk) 04:17, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

text: This is a bit dated, so the response is intended more for people reading this later (as they often do) so that there is an answer to some of the problematic elements laid out above, starting with the following:   I'm not picking on  because a lot of editors, especially new ones, make this mistake.  You do not cite yourself here.  That would be original research, which we do not do.  Read that linked guideline and make sure you understand it.  Yes, the Bible is (and can be) a source; but it's a primary source.  If you're referencing the Bible for a quote, or something very specific where you're simply stating what is stated in the primary source, then that's fine.  But the minute you cross over and apply something interpretive to it, then you MUST have a secondary source that says that - and says it specifically.  See point #2 about primary sources: .  With that understanding, refer to the note here: WP:RSPSCRIPTURE.  (And for anyone suggesting that you cannot use the primary source and/or the Bible at all, then you are misreading/misunderstanding the policy as well - just in a different way.)  Our objective here is provide encyclopedic content, and that means "we" as editors are not writing original research.  We are presenting information from reliable sources.  The rest of the complaints above can be summed up by the following: If you find things on Wikipedia that are not objective, or not WP:NPOV, then your job as an editor is to work on fixing and improving that.  But unless you're replacing biased or uncited information with your own personal original research, then you're not solving the problem - you're just replacing one problem with another. ButlerBlog (talk) 16:10, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  I Give Up Here!