Talk:Arthur Rudolph/Archive 1

message: http://www.etext.org/Politics/P_News/our.nazis
"From 1951 to 1961 Arthur Rudolph was employed by MARTIN MARIETTA, in charge of research and development of the Pershing missile."  Found this on the web in several places.
- need to reconcile dates - I know he was involved with Pershing, supposedly as the first project manager, I just can't figure out the dates.  Pershing development did not start until 1958.
:No- these dates do not work, and some others may be suspect.  I don't think he ever worked for Martin at all.
::No he did not.
Per "Raise Heaven and Earth", AR was part of the Army board to select the contractor for Pershing.  The selection board met at RSA in Mar 1958, so I'm gonna bet that AR was in Huntsville at the time.
:Yes
AR got a doctorate in Winter Park in 1959, so he was probably in Orlando then.
:No
Gadget850 18:59, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: --Gadget850 02:47, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The original article shows University of Berlin which redirects to Humboldt University of Berlin, but in Rudolph's time it would have been "University of Linden". Franklin says "College of Berlin", the closest to this I can find is Technical University of Berlin which would have been called "Technical College of Berlin" in Rudolph's era.  I think this is most likely for a farm boy to attend training as a mechanical engineer, thus I am going to use this on the next revision. --Gadget850 14:35, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Found a reference in the 1982 OSI interrogation transcript.  AR specifically states that he did not attend Berlin University, but the College.  --Gadget850 02:47, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: University

message: "in San Diego, California in connection with the Solar Aircraft Corporation."
I cannot find any information on this company.  All Google hits are derived from this article. --Gadget850 02:47, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Found Solar Aircraft Company at http://mysolar.cat.com/cda/layout?m=35503&x=7.  Looks like they were involved with Atlas and other missile programs. Also noted as such in FBI documents.--Gadget850 17:13, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Solar Aircraft Corporation

message: Peculiarly, the outcome of the hearing is not mentioned, leaving the readers (me) in the dark. However, the Friedwardt Winterberg article states that he "was later acquitted of all charges". If so, then that should be mentioned here, together with a reference. Harald88 22:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  what was the outcome of the hearing? 

message: *The Technical College of Berlin did not become a university until 1946, so this is the correct name in 1928.  This has been clarified.
*Bachelor of Science- Rudolph stated he had the equivalent of a BS durng interviews noted in American in Exile and per documents from the referenced FBI dossier.  I know the German system of the time did not have a BS, but I have not been able to figure out the exact name.  
*Rudoplh was in the Nazi party and the SA reserve.  He never made any secret of it, discussing it in American in Exile.  Again, this is noted several times in the FBI documents.  Since this was a central issue in the OSI case, it is hardly "irrelevant information".
*"His life is a sad example..." is an unsourced opinion.  Opinions by others are fine as long as they are sourced.
--Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reversion of edits by 82.146.105.15 

message: "Conspiracy? The CIA and the Nazis" produced by Towers Productions, Inc. for the History Channel, copyright 2004 A&E Television Networks might serve as a possible reference for those seeking to expand this article. Official site. Youtube. Squideshi (talk) 20:09, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible Reference 

message: *Friedwardt Winterberg connection
*>Relate A-4 to V2
*Expand on Redstone and Pershing involvement
*Lawsuit in 1993 
*More references to check out:
**Secret Agenda: The United States Government, Nazi Scientists, and Project Paperclip, 1945 to 1990; Linda Hunt
**Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism; Dennis King
**The Rocket and the Reich: Peenemunde and the Coming of the Ballistic Missile Era; Michael J. Neufeld
**The Nazi Rocketeers: Dreams of Space and Crimes of War; Dennis Piszkiewicz
**Gestapo USA: When Justice Was Blindfolded; William E. Winterstein Sr.
**Secrets Of The Space Age: The Sacrifices and Struggles To Get To The Moon; The Aftermath: What Happened After Lunar Mission, Intrigue and United States Space Heros Betrayed; William E., Sr. Winterstein 
**How We Got to the Moon: The Story of the Germany Space Pioneers; Marsha Freeman
**Raketenpionier Arthur Rudolph; Franz Kurowski
**http://www.scientistsandfriends.com/files/arthur.pdf]
**http://www.thebulletin.org/pdf/temp/041_004_010.pdf
--Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 2 have google books Accotink2 talk 01:20, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  To do 

message: The New York Times has obtained a full, non-redacted, version of the Department of Justice 2006 report on the OSI.  The section on Rudolph contains the following which is germaine to this article (first page reference is document page number, second page reference is NYT digital archive page reference):
:Mittelwerk factory ... used slave labour and prisoners of war...The labourers, wearing striped concentration camp uniforms, came from Nazi camps including Auschwitz and Buchenwald. They were guarded by SS men and kapos, and worked 12 hour shifts in cold, damp and dusty tunnels.  Thousands perished, generally from malnutrition, exhaustion and overwork, some were murdered. Until Dora got its own crematorium, the dead were burned at Buchenwald.(pp.331-2/pp.342-3)
The report argues his entry into the US was in contravention of State Department regulations:
:...visa regulations prohibited the entry of an alien "who has been guilty of or has advocated or acquiesced in activities or conduct contrary to civilization and human decency on behalf of the Axis countries."(p.332/p.343)
A group of Dora workers were accused of sabotage and hanged, Rudolph recalled:
:...ordering the laborers under his supervision to bear witness.(p.333/p.344)
:Forcing slave laborers to watch hangings was, according to the [OSI] prosecution memo, a form of "terror" which further added to the persecution."(p.334/p.345)
Other quotes:
:Rudolph received daily prisoner strength reports which showed the number of prisoners available for work, the number of "new arrivals", and the number of people lost through sickness or death.(p.333/p.344)
:Rudolph was not simply aware of the use of slave labourers at Dora; he had in fact worked to institute that program.(p.336/p.347)
:Rudolph in turn agreed not to contest allegations that while at Mittelwerk he participated in the persecution of unarmed civilians because of their race, religion, national origin or political opinion.(p.335/p.346)
:[A]...Canadian court concluded that Rudolph "called for, made use of and directed" slave labourers who suffered "indescribably brutal" conditions. (p.336/p.347) 
--Goldsztajn (talk) 12:38, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for this information. The activities of this Nazi party member in WW2 should be definetely put into the article.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:36, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-redacted Justice Department report on OSI now available 

message: The timeline on this section seems to have some problems and needs sources:
:"From July to October 1945, Rudolph was transferred to the British to participate in Operation Backfire. He was then transferred back to the Americans. The U.S. Army picked up Martha and Marianne Rudolph from Stepfershausen before it was occupied by the Red Army and the Rudolphs were reunited at Camp Overcast near Landshut. In November 1945, Operation Overcast brought Rudolph, von Braun and the rest of the V-2 team temporarily to the US for six months. After President Truman approved Operation Paperclip in August 1946 most of the group stayed permanently."
Overcast was the acquisition and management of the Nazi scientists in Germany (began in july 45), later renamed as Paperclip (March 46). Rudolph came to the US under Overcast (December 45), but his settlement (which required he temproarily leave the US in 1949) was under Paperclip. --Goldsztajn (talk) 13:11, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see the discrepancies. Rudolph left Germany in November 1945 under Overcast. In March 1946, the name was changed to Operation Paperclip and formally approved by Truman in August 1945. It is not clear how long he was actually involved in Paperclip, nor is it clear how Paperclip was involved in his 1949 immigration. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 17:38, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Problems: (a) arrival in November or December 1945? (b) leaves out mention of Overcast becoming Paperclip in March 1946 (sentences imply Overcast and Paperclip were different operations, when essentially they were the evolution of the same policy, ie how best to get Nazi scientists working for and in the USA) (c) section above states he was "transferred back" to the Americans, which implies he was already an American asset under  Overcast on loan to the British, but then having made no mention of Overcast, it is noted that Overcast brought him to the US in November 1945 (d) leaves out mention of Rudolph's trip to Ciudad Juarez in 1949, which was a component to Paperclip's operations in normalising the Nazi scientists' settlement in the US.--Goldsztajn (talk) 18:59, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

text: I clarified the rename. If you want to add that the immigration event was under the auspices of Paperclip, that is is fine; it is covered in the Paperclip article. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 16:28, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Operation Overcast/Paperclip 

message: I noticed in the section above the mention of Hall as unreliable reference.  I may be wrong, but there is only one sentence in the article that cites the Hall webpage:
:On May 1, 1930, Rudolph began working for the Heylandt Works in Berlin where he met rocketry pioneer Max Valier.
This information is available in Science, Technology, and National Socialism, although without an exact date of employment.  It is RS and in English.--Goldsztajn (talk) 12:53, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see Hall as a RS. The statement us noncontroversial and backed up by several sources, including Franklin. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 17:23, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Just looking for a replacement for the source, I was not questioning the matter.  I'll use Neufeld. --Goldsztajn (talk) 10:20, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the Hall citation, text here for reference:--Goldsztajn (talk) 10:39, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of Hall as reference 

message: Rudolph was not deported. He left the US, then he renounced his citizenship under an agreement with the OSI. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 21:39, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Category removed. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 11:57, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  People deported from the United States