Talk:Manaki brothers/Archive 1

message: As I said before, obviously "Miltiadis Manakis" is a Greek name, but as it happens, it is incorrect.  It turns out that their name in Greek sources is almost always Μανάκια, not Μανάκης.  My error.  So I will correct this in the text and move the article to Manakia.  Google shows a preponderance of "Manaki", but that appears to be largely because of the film festival in Bitola.
:Where are you getting this? Please don't move the article yet. Miskin 19:35, 26 December 2005 (UTC
::Try the Google search 
:For such an under-documented article, I think you would agree that online entries (and therefore google results) are not a good criterion. I would trust more easily the anglophone script of Theo Angelopoulos rather than some online entries. Also if you noticed, 50% of the results are FYROM sites, who have purposely corrupted the names to make them sound non-Greek. Miskin 20:29, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently you didn't actually try the Google search in the link above, which is in Greek and is mostly .gr results, and in fact zero .mk sites.  Normally, I'd expect Angelopoulos to be a good source, but he seems to have made a mistake, which has now been propagated among all English-language sites since the main reason the Manakia brothers are mentioned in English is his film, just as the "Manaki" spelling has been propagated by everyone referring to the film festival in Bitola. --Macrakis 20:26, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

text: The Vlach affiliation is not impossible, I just want to verify it with a credible source. Miskin 19:35, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a book in the Harvard library: Exarchos, Giōrgēs, Adelphoi Manakia : prōtoporoi tou kinēmatographou sta Valkania kai to "Vlachikon zētēma" (The Brothers Manakia: Pioneers of the Cinema in the Balkans and the "Vlach question"). Athēna : Gavriēlidēs, 1991, which is catalogued under Aromanians -- Ethnic identity, among others.  I have not seen the book -- and it is conceivable that it talks about the 'legend' of the Vlach identity of the Manaki brothers.... --Macrakis 19:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure there are books. We just need to get our hands on them, I'll try to deal with that. Miskin 20:29, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Now, you simply don't use their name, as I explained it's out of context and anachronistic in the given period. It would be like calling Cleopatra an Arab. Miskin 19:35, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have sources for where they were after Bitola became Yugoslav?  I don't, I'm afraid. --Macrakis 19:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text: That's one of the points that I'm planning to verify. Miskin 20:29, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text: 'Ottoman' is not an ethnic label, it identifies their nationality.  "Ottoman national" in international law does not mean "of the Ottoman nation" (which you correctly say does not exist), but "subject of the Ottoman Empire".  Saying that someone is "British" does not imply that he is English and not Welsh. --Macrakis 19:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: More on ethnic labels

message: Should the Manakia brothers be described as "Ottoman photographers"?  I am changing the phrasing to "photographers in Ottoman Epirus".  I hope this will be clear and unambiguous.
Arguments for:
* The Manakia brothers were born in, worked in, and were subjects of the Ottoman empire.  Grevena, Iannina, and Monastir were all part of the Ottoman Empire in the period we're talking about.  Ottoman of course does not describe their ethnic identification, which was probably Greek or perhaps Vlach. --Macrakis 18:51, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "Ottoman"

message: Which is the correct name?
In English-language sources on the Web, the most commonly-found versions are Manaki and Manakis.  Manaki is the accusative of Manakis in Greek, and so is often equivalent to Manakis in English.  But of course there are not many references to any of the versions....
Manakis is the form of the name used in the film Ulysses' Gaze, and therefore in works about cinema.  In the book Theo Angelopoulos: Interviews (Thodoros Angelopoulos), they are referred to four times as Manaki (p 91, 92, 95, 98 -- accusative of Manakis?) and once as Manakia (p 90).  Manaki is also the Macedonian form of the name, used in references to the film festival held in Bitola (formerly Monastir).  Manakia is the form found in most Greek-language online references (try the Google search [site:gr Μανάκια].  In print references, a Greek-language book about them spells the name Manaki(s) (Christodoulos 1989) and one spells it Manakia; a Turkish-language book about them spells it Manakis (Margulies, 1997), and another Greek-language book spells is Manakia(s) (Exarchos, 1991).  An article on "Greek Film and the National Interest: A Brief Preface" by SE Constantinidis in Journal of Modern Greek Studies calls them Manakia.
It would be useful to have additional information. --Macrakis 18:51, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The name: Manaki, Manakis, or Manakia?

message: There are many mentions in the literature of the Manakia brothers' origin in a Vlach village.  It is probable, given the names "Milton" and "Iannakis", that they had Greek national consciousness.  Exarchos discusses their connection to Vlachness, but no one here has read the book.  It would be useful to have additional information on this. --Macrakis 18:51, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: How to describe Vlach connection

message: A recent edit changed "Ottoman Epirus" to "Ottoman Macedonia".  I'm afraid I committed the original error of calling it "Epirus".  But in fact, now that I think about it, both are incorrect anachronisms.  Though Avdela is in Greek Macedonia, there is really no such thing as Ottoman Macedonia, only the vilayets of Monastir, Selanik, etc.  I believe Avdela and Grevena were in the vilayet of Monastir.  Comments? Corrections? --Macrakis 23:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Epirus, Macedonia, etc.

message: '...the twin Manakis brothers, founders of Balkan cinema, Vlachs from Avdela, one of whom died a "Greek" in Thessaloniki, the other a "Yugoslav" across the border....' -- Mark Mazower, "Introduction to the Study of Macedonia", Journal of Modern Greek Studies 14:2 (1996) 229-235  --Macrakis 19:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Evidence of national allegience and ethnic identity

message: I clearly remember reading that the brothers first offered all their archives to the Greek state but that Athens (in a moronic act of snobbishness and ignorance),  turned them down. So they next turned to Belgrade. Does anyone have a source for this? Politis 14:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Another point that should be enquired is when the offer was made, and if the offer was made jointly by both brothers; since one died in Yugoslavia, and another in Greece, it would seem they seperated at some point, possibly making different political and national choices.--Aldux 17:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archives first offered to Athens- source?

message: I strongly protest the accusation of macrakis that I made a "dishonest" edit! The term Yanya was and is completely unknown and not in use by any!
The most logical assumption is that the name was written wrongly in the article instead of Giannena(contemporary term)  as Yanya. If it was not an orthographical mistake but it was done on purpose then it is misleading since the city is a well known Greek city and it was known by its Greek name during its existence. Even at the Ottoman conquest period the city was known with the local Greek name “Giannena” (the Vlachs and the Albanians were using the same with minimum differences!). 
If the "Yanya" does exist (and I don’t object its existence!) it was not a “contemporary name” but the official Ottoman that probably appears as such only in Ottoman documents! So I am reverting the Yanya back in Ioannina since the name was the contemporary one (even in “Giannina” form) and Yanya is misleading! Any differences in the name as it was preannounced should remain in the Ioannina article!
{Let me remind that the official name of Constantinople was during Ottoman period as Konstantiniyie (excuse the orthographical) and not Istanbul;. Should we use it as contemporary?? 
(I do of course expect an apology from macrakis . Although I assume that he made a honest but unfortunate remark)}
Seleukosa 09:06, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Who ever has called Ioanina as Yanya???

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Yanaki and Milton Manaki which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 20:19, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: See Talk:Yanaki and Milton Manaki#Requested move 4 November 2021. Andrewa (talk) 20:32, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latest article move