Talk:Maria Goretti

message: Please stop adding the bit saying that Alessandro Serenelli went to Maria's canonization. It's a mistake from the official page. Assunta did go, but with her four remaining sons and daughters; Alessandro didn't, though he *was* there for Assunta when she died. Lunamaria 21:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: With all due respect, Lunamaria, but your saying it doesn't make it so. Please see http://www.mariagoretti.org/mariabio.htm , or see http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=78 , or see http://catholicism.about.com/cs/saints/a/mariagoretti.htm , or see http://www.scborromeo.org/saints/maria.htm .  Please do not revert unless you can provide documented evidence.  Thanks.  Ward3001 01:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I also replied on your talk page.  Ward3001 21:49, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: There is actual video footage of Alessandro at the caonnisation;
www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3PR1_vb4To Matthewafallen
In all the sources I've read on the story about St. Maria Goretti,  Allessandro Serenelli attended her Canonization.--Splashen (talk) 05:08, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bleh to "Where is Waldo?!", let's play "Where is Alessandro?!" 

message: Added some more links. Specially check the "Sex or Death?" one; very intresting discussion. Lunamaria (talk) 20:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Links

message: Hi,  Maybe, in the article, we should refer to an "open debate" or something like that. Yesterday,  I wrote, based on my material, that Alessandro was not there, but this seems to truly in question. 
--Ambrosius007 (talk) 09:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There are multiple sources cited in the article that say Allesandro was there. If you wish to challenge that please provide the sources here on this talk page for me to see first, including all citation information and direct quotes that pertain to his absence from the canonization. Otherwise leave that part of the article like it is. Simply making the statement "based on my material" is insufficient to delete something from an article. Thank you. Ward3001 (talk) 14:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: I agree. She is my patroness  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.245.19 (talk) 16:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The deal with Maria and her sainthood... anti-feministic or not? 

message: Alessandro came in! Oh! We're supposed to know who he is? The article never explains this. Who the hell was he? COME ON! --98.232.182.66 (talk) 09:48, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Poorly, poorly written cluster eff parapgraph

message: This sentence in the opening paragraph seems problematic: "She died a martyr to preserve, and seal with her blood, her love of Jesus and her loyalty to God's commandment."  Not only is it overly religious in tone, promoting an explicitly Catholic POV (as opposed to merely reporting on it), but it's also almost content-free.  It doesn't say WHICH commandment, and strongly implies that her death was voluntary and at her own initiative, when this was not even close to the case.  I'm replacing it; I welcome further discussion if need be.  Flewellyn (talk) 02:55, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Overly religious tone"??? We're talking about a saint who died because of her faith. She isn't just another murder victim. How do you think she became a saint? "Catholic POV"??? She was a Catholic, and she is canonized a saint by the Catholic Church. There is no POV. If she were just someone who was randomly murdered and faith and Catholicism were not involved, you would have a point. When a person's notability centers around her faith, it is not POV to point that out. And there is no implication that her death was voluntary. She never told her killer, "Please kill me so I can be a martyr and saint". There is absolutely nothing in the article that says she wanted to die. She died because she did not want to violate the principles of her faith. Is your next slashing of "Catholic POV" to remove references to Catholicism from John Paul II? I'm not pushing Catholicism, but Catholicism is an integral part of this article. Ward3001 (talk) 03:13, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: With all due respect, it's not the mentioning of Catholicism that is problematic.  Of course that should be mentioned, it's crucial.  But the way that sentence was phrased is strongly religious, and promotes Catholicism, instead of reporting about it.  As for the rest, stating that she died because she did not want to violate her faith is fine, but saying WHY and HOW she died is important.  Otherwise it looks like a whitewash.  I'll reedit to include a mix of both wordings.  Flewellyn (talk) 03:41, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't want to assume too much, but I believe you have little knowledge of Maria Goretti. And that's fine; I'm sure you can still spot POV when you see it. But this time you're seeing it when it's not there. I have no problem with a detail or two about how she died. But her faith in Jesus and God's commandment was a core part of her life. In all likelihood it is why she died in a situation where many other people might have made a different decision in order to live. That is not a promotion of Catholicism or a "whitewash." It is an essential part of the story of Maria Goretti's life and death, regardless of which particular faith she belonged to. If we were writing about an Islamic martyr or any other religious figure, I would have no problem including such details that are so essential to understanding the person. Look at the lead for other religious figures. You will see very similar statements that, taken out the context of this person's life, could be interpreting as POV bias in favor of that person's religion. This article is no different. Ward3001 (talk) 04:11, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Huh? 

message: The controversy  section has been flagged since February for  lack of verification.  There are several controversy "titles" which are followed by one or two sentences, creating an overwhelming impression of controversy, where there is none. 
This should be  a biography of a famous saint, who is venerated throughout the world.  The controversy section reads like a did you know what happened in the American boonies article, some of which may be incorrect: (When I lived in Pensylvenia,  I never heared about a Maria Goretti law). This whole section should be drastically reduced. --Thomaq (talk) 18:05, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV Controversy 

message: Apparently Maria Goretti's body (which is on the wikipedia list of incorruptible) is on display at the church of Our Lady of Mercy in Nuttuno, Italy. The article doesn't mention this, though. http://members.chello.nl/~l.de.bondt/IncorruptBodies.htm --98.232.182.66 (talk) 09:55, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Body on display, article mentions nothing

message: The article says:
On July 6, 1902, finding eleven-year old Maria alone sewing, Alessandro Serenelli came in and threatened her with death if she did not do as he said.
The following day, twenty hours after the attack, having expressed forgiveness for her murderer and stating that she wanted to have him in Heaven with her, Maria died of her injuries.
Wouldn't this mean that Maria actually died on July 7th, not July 6th? Morhange (talk) 21:01, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Alessandro attacked Maria on July 5, and she died the following day, i.e. July 6. Antique Rose (talk) 22:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Day of Death? 

message: I propose that this section be removed from the page. Popes talking highly of canonized saints? Who'da thunk it? This isn't notable. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 17:08, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know about that, but the "controversy" section should be removed from the article about this saint per WP:UNDUE. Ostap 05:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see how two sentences of negative are undue in a page that is otherwise entirely positive about her. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 16:30, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This isn't about negative/positive, this is an encyclopedia article about a saint.  "Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention overall as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views." This isn't Feminist criticism of Saint Maria Goretti.  Ostap 18:21, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems we're at an impasse on the controversy section, but as there aren't objections to my original proposal, I'll be doing it shortly. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 18:00, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Papal honors for Maria Goretti

message: Guerri, Giordano Bruno, Povera Santa, Povero Assassino - La vera storia di Maria Goretti, Mondadori 1985, still available as . (German translation available as . Sorry, no English version AFAIK.) Have fun. Lupo 15:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you enjoy this book? Antique Rose — Drop me a line 18:21, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Literature

message: Shouldn't the title be St. or Saint Maria Goretti? Homework2 pass a notesign! 19:11, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No, religious honorifics generally are not included in titles. E.g. cf. Thomas Aquinas, Augustine of Hippo, Teresa of Avila. TallNapoleon (talk) 07:15, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: In the second para of Early life he is referred to as "... his adult son, Alessandro." The next para supports this by stating his age as 20 years. However, under Serenelli's imprisonment and repentance we are told that his sentence was commuted because he was a minor. Surely, he can't be both an adult and a minor? Was this some quirk of Italian law that considered people under (say) 21 to be minors? If so, this needs to be clearly stated. 58.7.251.135 (talk) 03:50, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not familiar with Italian law, but I supposed he could have been sentenced as a minor. As for changing the article, we can't add or change anything without a reliable source. I don't have access to the source cited in that paragraph, so I don't know its contents. But we can't make any comments about Italian law without a good source to back it up. Cresix (talk) 16:07, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I found a reference that he was a minor, so I have added that.  I suspect that the age of majority at that time was 21, but is now 18.  This is consistent with the article on him in the Italian Wikipedia: “With the process, Serenellis was sentenced to 30 years in prison: he avoided the life sentence because the laws of that time was not yet of age” (Google translation).  However, I have also added a reference implying he was eligible for death, which implies he wasn’t a minor, unless perhaps he was tried as an adult or some other quirk of law.TheTruth-2009 (talk) 07:38, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alessandro - adult or minor? 

message: Someone changed “finding eleven-year-old Maria sewing alone” to first “finding eleven-year-old Maria sitting on the stairs alone alone” and then “finding eleven-sewing alone”.
I think these were genuine mistakes made by someone unfamiliar with Wikipedia editing, so I merely reverted them.  However, I wanted to add what I thought that editor wanted it to say, but first I wanted to check the facts.  Different biographies use different words - porch, stairs, terrace - making it difficult to know exactly where she was sitting.  Inspecting the photo of the scene, I see it’s a long stairway with landings at the top and halfway down.  I suspect she was sitting on one of those landings, maybe the top one which could be called a porch.  So I have changed the wording to “finding eleven-year-old Maria sitting alone on the outside stairs, sewing”.TheTruth-2009 (talk) 05:49, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Where was she sitting?

message: I'm going to dispute the neutrality of this statement: Aileen la Tourette wrote a fictionalized account of Maria Goretti (The Oldest Girl, Gariband Press, 2011) that allows Maria to express a more challenging and likely personality than the one associated with the Catholic Church's air-brushed depiction of her. Maybe we can find a less polemical way to word this? — AJDS talk 13:46, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. That wording isn't acceptable at all. Asarelah (talk) 14:27, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

text: I have now made the minimal changes I suggested a month ago, but ideally someone who is familiar with the book should become involved.TheTruth-2009 (talk) 05:57, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Airbrushed depiction" 

message: The article states she was the third of six children.  I don’t have the given reference (Ruef) so I can’t check it, but my references state she was the third of seven or, if you leave out the first child, who died before the second one was born, she was the second of the six surviving children.  This agrees with the article in the Italian Wikipedia.  Also, the existing names are not in birth order, so I have changed that.  I have also given the alternative names I found: pet names?TheTruth-2009 (talk) 06:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Her brothers and sisters 

message: When?
Most sources say they left Corinaldo in 1896, but a couple give the date as 1897, so I have given both dates in my addition to the article.  Similarly, most sources say they moved to Le Ferriere in 1899, but I found one source which gives the date as 1896, and another as 1900.  However, neither of those dates seems likely based on the weight of evidence, so I haven’t included them.
Where?
One source says they first moved to Collegrande near Pagliano.  I found a Colle Grande, it’s in Abruzzi, which is the region just south of Ancona; I didn’t find a Pagliano nearby, but there is a Pagliaro in Abruzzi, Pagliaro di Tono.  Another source says they moved to Colle Granturco.  I didn’t find a place of that name.  I didn’t think the evidence for either of these alternatives was strong enough to include them in the article.
I found a number of variations of the name Le Ferriere: Conca delle Ferriere, Ferriere di Conca; La Ferriere; La Ferriere de Conca; and just plain Ferriere.  I didn’t think it worth including them.
Who?
I thought, based on the sources I had previously seen, that the Serenellis moved into the Goretti’s house in Le Ferriere after they were already living there, but the article is vague, and could mean that both families moved in at the same time, or even that the Serenellis moved in first.  One of my new sources states that both families left the Ancona region in the same year, and moved to the same large plot of land in Colle Gianturco, becoming partners the following year.  Both that and other new sources state that they moved together to Le Ferriere.  Yet another source implies that the Serenellis were already living there.  Because of this uncertainty, I have left the article unchanged.
Most sources mention only one Serenelli son, Alessandro, but one of my sources mentions a second son, Gaspar, who was also living at Le Ferriere initially, but apparently moved away long before the murder.
I have left the word "malaria" in italics, but I don’t know why it should be: shouldn’t it rather link to the Wikipedia article?TheTruth-2009 (talk) 17:01, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  When?, where?, who? 

message: There have been two small changes to the article in the past week: the number of initial stab wounds has been changed from 11 to 14 (making the total 17 instead of 14), and the number of hours she lived after the attack has been changed from 20 to 24, with no source quoted for either.
I agree with the latter, but not the former.  According to my sources, the attack began at either 2 o’clock or shortly after 3 p.m., and she died at either 3 o’clock or shortly before 4 p.m. the next day, so about 24 hours later, though one source states that “bells were ringing the vesper hour”, which implies somewhat later that day (around sunset?).
My sources are inconsistent with regard to the number (and site) of the wounds: 14 to her chest and abdomen; 14, sites unspecified; initially 8 and then 6 more (sites unspecified, but perhaps 8 to the front and 6 to the back); 14 wounds, then stabbed in the back (so presumably the 14 were to the front, and an unspecified number to the back); and 14 times.  The Wikipedia article also quotes a source which gives the total number as 14.  So there is some support for both the article’s original 11+3 and the present 14+3.  However, the stronger evidence is for the total of 14, and therefore for the original 11+3 (though I don’t have enough evidence to decide if that’s the correct breakdown).  I think it likely that the editor who made this recent change didn’t see the next sentence, and thought the 11 was the total number, and so mistakenly corrected that.
I am therefore going to change the 14 back to 11, and will give sources for both this and the number of hours.TheTruth-2009 (talk) 14:56, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of stab wounds and length of time she survived 

message: User Askwad has completely rewritten and extended a fairly significant part of the article, and I have mixed feelings about the new version.  I rather like the extra detail, and I think it flows together in a logical story.  But I fear it might be criticized as being unencyclopedic language or overly religious - and too detailed.  I don’t know if Askwad wrote it all him- or herself: it might have been taken from a booklet, in which case copyright becomes a question.  Which raises another problem: not a single source is quoted, whereas the replaced text quotes several.  And there are some other problems with the new version.  For example, right at the beginning, it doesn’t say this was the midday meal.  More seriously, I’ve never heard that a second baby was there.  It repeats some information, such as that Luigi was dead.  “The called for the priest” should be “They called for the priest”.  The eulogies belong later in the article.
While I appreciate the amount of effort Askwad put into this, that edit needs a fair amount of work, and maybe it would be better if it were reverted.  Several other people have contributed to this article: what do they think?TheTruth-2009 (talk) 19:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted. It was an unambiguous copyvio from The Story of St. Maria Goretti. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  20:33, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks - and good detective work.TheTruth-2009 (talk) 16:47, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: For that I have to thank you. It was you who pointed me in that direction so you deserve most of the credit. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  03:20, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Askwad’s rewrite 

message: The incorrect claim that Aloysius Gonzaga’s mother attended his canonization has been removed.  While in general I naturally agree that articles should not contain false information, this instance is more complicated: the false information is given and refuted.  One can make a case for retaining that in the article.  Someone new to Wikipedia, having seen the false information in what appears to be a reliable source, might in good faith add it to the article, whereas if the refutation is in the article, they would not to do that.  However I agree that it was right to remove the “Some sources assert” from “Some sources assert she was the first mother ...”.
There’s a similar situation with Maria’s age.  Some sources which should be reliable incorrectly give her age as 12.  I was thinking of pointing this out in the article.
I haven’t seen the claim that Aloysius Gonzaga’s mother was the first (is the reference included in the article?), but I have seen the claim that Maria was 12.TheTruth-2009 (talk) 06:06, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It’s the O’Grady article that says Gonzaga’s mother was the first.TheTruth-2009 (talk) 13:28, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing explicitly false information 

message: I’m not entirely happy with the changes by 80.180.39.24, and I see one correction has already been made. Although they may be true, it doesn’t give a source, but implies that it’s from the existing source that actually says something a bit different. And some sourced information has been removed without a reason being given.TheTruth-2009 (talk) 12:39, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, maybe pt article can clarify some questions, this source especially (in italian).PauloMSimoes (talk) 13:36, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the tip.  Although I don’t understand Italian, the Corinaldo website is very interesting and valuable: it has a specific date when the family left, which was one of my previous questions.TheTruth-2009 (talk) 06:27, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  December 17, 2013 changes 

message: Some English accounts of Maria’s life give the English version of Alessandro’s name, or even of her name.  As I recall, the edit by 14.99.48.163 on 9 January 2014 is not the first time the Wikipedia article has been changed to those versions, so perhaps the article should mention this, to prevent a repeat.TheTruth-2009 (talk) 09:04, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: My first impulse was to agree (which even motivated to undo that edit), but seeing other similar articles, such as Francis of Assisi, Clare of Assisi and Benedict of Nursia, I think the names could be changed to the language of the article (including title). Could have some rule in en WP about this.Regards.PauloMSimoes (talk) 13:44, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

text: How the most of English sources use "Maria", I think your second option is plausible. Sorry, my English is very poor to write extensive texts, but, as they say here, be bold and go ahead.PauloMSimoes (talk) 01:11, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your contributions in a language you’re not fluent in.  I am hoping that other editors will add their opinions, on both this question and other questions raised above.TheTruth-2009 (talk) 06:25, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  English versions of the names 

message: I have added that the film Heaven over the Marshes was awarded a prize at the Venice Film Festival.  According to my source, it won the Grand Prize, but other sources indicate that’s not the case: the last Grand Prize was in 1948.  So I just said it was awarded a prize.  Based on other sources, also Crusz, it has won other awards.TheTruth-2009 (talk) 15:55, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Film awards 

message: I've never edited a page so I don't know what to do, but while I was reading I noticed someone has vandalized the page. Under Early Life someone has added that the family liked bears, iPhones, and invented Dr Who. I've read through the whole article and thankfully these are the only malicious edits that I've found. How sick do you have to be to vandalize a page about an 11 year old who was murdered during an attempted rape?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.97.107.222 (talk) 01:39, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: On the page for Maria Goretti, it states that her killer, Alessandro Serenellis, was present for her canonization, and died at the age of 87. However, on the page for Alessandro Serenellis, it states that he did not attend her canonization (though he is often reported as being in attendance), and that he died at the age of 88. I don't know which version is correct, but they can't both be. 2600:6C52:6F00:2387:D31:EDA3:74A3:1439 (talk) 02:52, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discrepancies