Talk:Armenian genocide/Archive 3

message: Ironically, the following developments have occured just after the we discussed about freedom of speech in Turkey on the Armenian issue:
- Belgian parliament passed a new law that classified denial of Armenian "genocide" as a crime with a penalty of 1 to 12 months of imprisonment
- French "socialists" proposed a similar law to the French Parliament
- A Swiss court granted an arrest warrant for Yusuf Halacoğlu, a Turkish historian and bureocrat, for rejecting the genocide claims in a talk in Switzerland. The decision was condemned by the involved community in Turkey, including supporters of genocide thesis such as Halil Berktay, and Armenian intellectuals such as Hrant Dink and Etyen Mahçupyan, who were described as "hostages of Turkey" by a representative of Armenian Diaspora in Europe recently.
Unfortunately, I was not able to find any of these in the "only reliable source of information", the western media. So I guess this will not take place in the article, unless the diaspora advocates want to proudly advertise it as evidence for international recognition. I just wanted to leave this note as an example for the never-ending double standards against Turkey. You may delete it, but please make sure that you keep claims about "Turks invading Arabia". --Cezveci 09:10, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If this is true Cezveci, it would be a logical consequence of recognising the genocide in the countries you mention, since similar rules apply to anyone denying the Jewish genocide - revisionism is a crime in (most) European countries. No need to mindlessly cry wolf about being the victims of double standards. And WTF has "Turks invading Arabia" got to do with this? --House of Shin 11:23, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I have mixed feelings about this. I don't think that questioning a historical event should be forbidden. But I do believe that Halacoglu should be jailed though, what he did was beyond denial, this man would be classified as a racist(modern or old definition) by Western standards, not because he question the genocide, but as well because this man even beats racists like Ataov. Remind to people that according to this psychotic man, about 56 thousand Armenians died during the evacuation, and that from it, less than 10 thousands were killed in total by some tribs, while according to the same individual, Armenians on the other hand have allegedly killed about 520,000 Turks(while even publicists like Emin, propagandizing about Armenians "crimes" haven't advanced half that figure in the 20s or 30s). The sick individual characterises Armenians in a way that it doesn't take any law forbidding genocide denial to sue him. And in fact, the charges against him are based on an anti-racist law rather than a law making the denial illegal. Fadix 02:12, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The only racist I see here are you, sorry. But do you really want to jail a whole country? Talk to Turks and you will see they support rather Yusuf Halacoglu than supporting your point of view. Should Swiss jail them all? Honestly? Even Swiss is not as rich to build as many Jailhouses I guess! ;-) And by the way: Dear 198.77.78.57, stop deleting other authors writing here on the discussion page! Thank you!! 195.175.37.38 06:07, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you support Halacoglu, talk for yourself, that man is an example of how education doesn't necessarily equal with intelligence. Have I said that a whole country should be jailed? If you find it normal that a moron, at a head of a historic society generalizes an entire people, and uses Belge references that probably everyone even him knows being forgery, to claim that Armenians committed genocide against the Turks, and that only less than 10 thousand Armenians were killed, and all by Kurds, Arabs etc..., while Armenians have killed 520 thousand Turks; I don't. Fadix 15:48, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Developments on The Freedom of Speech Issue 

message: :The term Armenian Genocide (also known as the Armenian Holocaust or Armenian Massacre) refers to the deportations and related deaths of Armenians during the government of the Young Turks in 1915–1917. 
:Several facts in connection with the Armenian Genocide are currently causing dispute between parts of the international community and Turkey. There is an agreement about the occurence of the event, but Turkey denies that it was a , hence genocide.
:Most Armenian, many Western, and some Turkish scholars believe that the Armenian deaths were the result of a state-sponsored extermination plan. Most Western sources maintain that there were at least one million deaths. What is referred to as the Armenian Genocide is the second-most studied case of what is called genocide, and often draws comparison with the Holocaust.
----
:The term Armenian Genocide (also refered as the Armenian Holocaust or Armenian Massacre) refers to the deportations/relocations and related deaths of Armenians as a consequence during the government of the Young Turks between 1915 and 1917.
:The event is currently a diplomatic dispute between Turkey and Armenia. Presure on Turkey by parts of international community to recognise it as a "state-sponsored extermination plan" rather than her standing "a consequence of armed conflict, civil war, disease, and famine during the turmoil of World War I" is increasing as the list of countries that have officially recognized the Armenian Genocide grows.
:Scholars worldwide agree that the event did happen. However there is a lack of agreement on various details. The most significant disagreement is it's classification as genocide. While the majority agrees a state-sponsored extermination plan was the case, a considerable minority disputes this with various reasons. There is also a lack of concensius on the death toll. Numbers range between 200,000 to 1,600,000 or posibaly more, however archives do not agree with each other.
----
*Please post comments below here:
:Can someone please tell me who is "comparing this with the Holocaust? Is this a personal opinion? I dont think anything can compare with the Holocaust. --Cool Cat My Talk 02:13, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Who claims this is the second most studied genocide case? Is this a personal opinion? --Cool Cat My Talk 02:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  As you should know, Raphael Lemkin who is creator of the genocide term, compared Armenian genocide to Holocaust in the definition of the genocide term. So, this should be clear, I think. It may be more difficult to define "the most studied", "the second most studied", etc. things, but it can be said that the most or the second most studied case can be determined by number of historic works about the case. Of course, this claim should be reffered. --Gvorl 06:09, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well my issue is "compared" makes it sound almsot as bad as and like the Holocaust when that is not the case. Article itself suggests this. --Cool Cat My Talk 23:43, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Well, "denalisim" is a valid point of view. NPOV suggests an article to be written like this. Your works are comendable, McCarthy thinks it wasnt genocide. A good portion of the scientific comunity disagrees it being classified as genocide. --Cool Cat My Talk 23:43, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: What is your source to dispute the level of agreement/disagreement? Are we suggesting Turkey + McCarthy vs world? --Cool Cat My Talk 23:44, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: If the main diagreement of it is not genocide vs non genocide what is it? Playing with words and making it NPOV is good practice. This is how we do things on wikipedia. Creationism is one example, not the best one though. --Cool Cat My Talk 01:27, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Thoth might not well understand NPOV, but neither do you, as it has been demonstrated times and again by many. What you can't claim is that I don't understand NPOV... Fadix 04:45, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Right and how neutral is the article now since I stop touching it (20:14 (UTC), 26 Mar 2005)? --Cool Cat My Talk 06:44, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: Well the discussion has come along recently. I once again would like to recommend we completely ignore Cool Cat. He has served as an absolutely massive distraction from anything of substance, and I think things can move forward much more quickly even working with a nationalist Turk like Cevzeki (I cant's see the spelling from this page), than with someone who knows nothing and has feelings, and has who knows what agenda here. Perhaps it's even a well meaning one, but it has not served as one.
Now I also don't know who added the Arabia thing, but it is interesting that someone would rather complain about it repeatedly than remove it once.  Let me be the THIRD person to say, TAKE IT OUT!!  It is completely wrong.
Next, let me recomend someone archive almost all of this page again, and we start with a fresh one.  
I agree with Fadix that a change (for now at least) should be presented here, and wait at least a couple of days for useful comment.  If there seems to be no comments or disagreement, it could be implemented.  If there is, then we have to decide how these things get handled.  (and I again recommend anything coming from Cool Cat be ignored).
By the way, I am attending the huge international genocide conference (April 20-21) and it is excellent.  3 Israelis, 3 Turks (including one Turkish Armenian, but not including a Turk whose trial starts today for speaking the truth), lots of other international scholars, the well known Hovanissian, Dadrian, Akcam, Miller, Yehuda Bauer, Israel Charny, Juan Mendez, etc.  There was mention of the NY Times open letter that was being published and which our Turkish contributer here poopooed.   Too bad he, and Cool Cat couldn't attend...  seriously. --RaffiKojian 02:30, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a discussion on armenian genocide, any of your comments refering to me were removed in accordance with wikipedia:No Personal Attacks, discus me not. Archiving in progress... --Cool Cat My Talk 02:53, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Well, unarchive material if you wish. I archived them on some other users request, its a wiki. --Cool Cat My Talk 23:47, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No it is not Wiki, archiving doesn't apply to posts made hours ago, and use the archiving idea to hide posts like that. There is a reason behind archiving, and what you've did with my posts can't be included here. Oh and, as I see you have deleted again, good going, this only adds in the evidences. Fadix 00:23, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that archiving should not proceed too rapidly, unless the page itself grows too fast to keep under a reasonable 70k in size. -SV|t 20:51, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: While it might be appropriate to remove flaming or abuse on one's own User Talk page, it is recommended that one should not remove personal attacks from Talk pages in general. Refactoring is only appropriate once a conversation has died down, that is, not immediately. --bainer 05:39, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Personal attacks will be removed, see tony removing such comments at the bottom of the page. Civil people dont need personal attacks, sincerely. --Cool Cat My Talk 11:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is NO personal attack in my post you have edited. Fadix 04:41, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am adding back the comments that Cool Cat deleted.  They are simply the truth, and I do not even consider them personal attacks, I am simply evaluating the worth of his participation, mentioning how he hinders discussion in every way possible, and recommending a strategy on how to continue the real work and discussion of the article.  Cool Cat, do NOT delete my comments, as it has already been pointed out that this is not kosher on a talk page, and I even do not consider my comments personal attacks.  They are nothing personal, and you have certainly discussed other people on this page.  I will not reply to your replies to me, but will respond in kind if you delete my comments again.  For peoples information, aside from posting what you deleted back where you took it from, I am posting it here for people to see. --RaffiKojian 16:29, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Who are you? Please sign your posts. -SV|t 20:51, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Really moving on... 

message: Coolcat, you have just archived posts made hours before they have been archived, this is a clear abuses of the archiving idea. Archiving is not there to hide posts which you don't like, you can NOT archive posts that were just made hours ago. Fadix 14:25, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, unarchive material if you wish. I archived them on some other users request, its a wiki. --Cool Cat My Talk 23:47, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No it is not Wiki, archiving doesn't apply to posts made hours ago, and use the archiving idea to hide posts like that. There is a reason behind archiving, and what you've did with my posts can't be included here. Oh and, as I see you have deleted again, good going, this only adds in the evidences. Fadix 00:23, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that archiving should not proceed too rapidly, unless the page itself grows too fast to keep under a reasonable 70k in size. -SV|t 20:51, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: While it might be appropriate to remove flaming or abuse on one's own User Talk page, it is recommended that one should not remove personal attacks from Talk pages in general. Refactoring is only appropriate once a conversation has died down, that is, not immediately. --bainer 05:39, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Personal attacks will be removed, see tony removing such comments at the bottom of the page. Civil people dont need personal attacks, sincerely. --Cool Cat My Talk 11:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is NO personal attack in my post you have edited. Fadix 04:41, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am adding back the comments that Cool Cat deleted.  They are simply the truth, and I do not even consider them personal attacks, I am simply evaluating the worth of his participation, mentioning how he hinders discussion in every way possible, and recommending a strategy on how to continue the real work and discussion of the article.  Cool Cat, do NOT delete my comments, as it has already been pointed out that this is not kosher on a talk page, and I even do not consider my comments personal attacks.  They are nothing personal, and you have certainly discussed other people on this page.  I will not reply to your replies to me, but will respond in kind if you delete my comments again.  For peoples information, aside from posting what you deleted back where you took it from, I am posting it here for people to see. --RaffiKojian 16:29, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Who are you? Please sign your posts. -SV|t 20:51, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Discuss me not

message: I think it appropriate to point out that User "Coolcat" has edited and deleted comments made by others on this page recently. I have posted links to these actions to the Requests for arbitration page concerning User:Coolcat, however, some participants in this talk page may not be aware of this request, so I'm raising the matter here; please see this edit and this one, too to see the removal or paring-down of comments by RaffiKojian, Fadix, and THOTH. — Davenbelle 00:25, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for tracking this. So sorry a certain uncool hyena is wasting your and all of our time like this --THOTH 04:58, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: While it might be appropriate to remove flaming or abuse on one's own User Talk page, it is recommended that one should not remove personal attacks from Talk pages in general. Refactoring is only appropriate once a conversation has died down, that is, not immediately. --bainer 05:39, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Personal attacks will be removed, see tony removing such comments at the bottom of the page. Civil people dont need personal attacks, sincerely. --Cool Cat My Talk 11:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is NO personal attack in my post you have edited. Fadix 04:41, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am adding back the comments that Cool Cat deleted.  They are simply the truth, and I do not even consider them personal attacks, I am simply evaluating the worth of his participation, mentioning how he hinders discussion in every way possible, and recommending a strategy on how to continue the real work and discussion of the article.  Cool Cat, do NOT delete my comments, as it has already been pointed out that this is not kosher on a talk page, and I even do not consider my comments personal attacks.  They are nothing personal, and you have certainly discussed other people on this page.  I will not reply to your replies to me, but will respond in kind if you delete my comments again.  For peoples information, aside from posting what you deleted back where you took it from, I am posting it here for people to see. --RaffiKojian 16:29, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Who are you? Please sign your posts. -SV|t 20:51, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misconduct 

message: An old mediation request still exists for this topic. How are issues/discussion regarding this article going? They seem to at least be civil, which is the important thing. Since this is a long term (maybe permanent) npov issue, I will change the npov notice to be less obstructive. -SV|t 20:51, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation 

message: The information I posted about the Ottoman Empire wanting to expand into Arabia is not wrong. I got the information out of my school history textbook.  →  JarlaxleArtemis 00:42, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
:What's the textbook? I wonder if its authors ever looked at a map, or knew anything about the extent and shape of the Ottoman Empire at the time, or heard the phrases "Hejaz railway" and "Arab Revolt". I wonder. —Charles P. (Mirv) 01:17, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ototomans owned entier Middle east, all of north africa, all of balkans and surrounding areas of black sea I believe. They, just like any empier wanted world domination. Heh, :) --Cool Cat My Talk 11:56, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Check your history book, even your nationalist books, I don't believe would hide that the Balkans were lost during the Balkan war of 1912-1913, which of course is before 1914, when World War I started. Fadix 04:42, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arabia 

message: Sorry for my intrusion into this dispute, simply I would like to suggest and/or review some structural solutions here (most of them are already suggested). I hope this will help by simplifying discussion. Feel free to add new ones --Gvorl 05:42, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Coolcat, my suggestion is not specially for you, please do not take it as personal suggestion or smth.. If active editors like You and Fadix will decide to discuss any changes before any changes are made, this will be decision for all, including not only You, but Fadix too. And because of somebody can be interested in such decission, please discuss it here, but not in my user-page discussion which is not interesting for anyone excepting myself, and not by placing texts about learning of wikipedia usage. Let me copy here part of your post and I'll try to answer to it also here. --Gvorl 12:50, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Separate articles will simply clear positions by avoiding change-war and searching of universal truth. Separate articles also can simplify the case - it is the only reason I had suggested this. Also, this will show points where different positions conform and where really differs. There can be separate article for Armenian position too, but it seems that such article will be nearly the same like we have currently. --Gvorl 12:50, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute solving 

message: I don't know why the [Armenian quote] was first removed, and then reinserted into text, but this time without link and without explanation. Is this some kind of conspiracy or just clums editing?!Szopen 09:00, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian quote 

message: I think the issue of local populations –not only bandits- (from neighbouring villages actually) of Turks and Kurds having taken part in the genocide, in a similar way to what happened in Rwanda, should be raised. I only have been told about it by a survivor, originally from a town in Cappadocia – are there any verifiable published records of such events that can be cited? They might have been too sporadic, but as seen in Rwanda, if there are pre-existing rivalries and tensions (and there were in Cappadocia at least, where the Armenians were generally the architects and better educated, richer ones I am told) the 'masterminds' of the genocide need only give a little shove in the "right" direction, and sit back.
I agree that the article must accuratly represent the role/actions/attitudes and such of the local populations of Turks and Kurds as we have reportings of such - agreed. There is a place for this in the outline (for a much better presentation of the Genocide) I am developing. --THOTH 14:51, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If the article talks about local populations involvement, it should also talk about the Armenian populations involvement in the acts causing outbreaks of violence. As you mentioned previously most Turks will react if the article *only* talks about Armenians being killed by other local Turks and Kurds. If local people were involved, what is the reason? I don't want to believe that Turks and Kurds attacked Armenians when there was no reason. I am almost sure that it is a sporadic reaction to things that were going on which wouldn't be genocide but ethnic clash. As a Turk, I have no bad feelings such as hate about Armenian people whatsoever. I understand your tradegy, but it is so difficult for me to accept that my ancestors contributed to such atrocities. Even if they did, they didn't do it in my name. I want to believe that it was some insane idealist imperialist minds that also pushed us into WWI. I believe that tensions arosed, caused by nationalist feelings making both sides unrest in East Turkey (which wasn't yet Turkey at that time). I want this to be resolved in peace and I'm as curious as anybody else as to what really caused to whatever happened. Well, I want to write more from a Turk's perspective. It is nice to see there are some moderate Armenians. Thanks. --Muz
I agree with you, to a certain point only: in the end, nothing excuses genocide, which aims at wiping out a whole race, with its culture, memory, identity. Not even 'ethnic clashes' as you say - let us not muddle causes, symptoms and effects. The Germans, and their governments have acknowledged that for decades: any attempt at finding what you call 'reasons' for perpetrating genocide, just as any denial, is moral if not effective complicity. That is the sad thing about Turkey's government's attitude in so many ways even today. And nothing that government says or does will ever change what has been lived, witnessed, officially and legally recognised by so many people and countries. But yes, I agree, for my part, that Armenian nationalism and its violent outbreaks should be mentioned as well, as far as reliable (i.e. non governmental or affiliated) sources can be given, as for what I am proposing above. You are welcome to provide them if you have any! --House of Shin 23:19, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: About including Armenian nationalism, I propose we wait the publication of German records translation that is due to about 3 months, or if a German speaker bought the German volume, to tell what it has to say about it. Fadix 02:29, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: First, from an emotional point of view, genocide is such a terrible thing, no one wants to take the blame. The government (or governments) as representatives of the population in large is no different. Having been compared to Nazis is very insulting itself. If no mention of the things that might have led to genocide is made, it will look like it was just a ideological/racist/etc. hatred or trying to wipe out a race. We know that Armenians and Turks (and Kurds, Arabs, etc.) lived together in peace for centuries on the same land. So, what happened that made it change so radically is very important to really understand genocide. We can't judge things out of context correctly. Especially if it is history. I see there are two sides to the story, first an ethnic clash caused by nationalism or whatever and there are decisions made to solve the problem (totally wrong no matter however you look at it) Another important point is that since there are two sides in this, two perspectives should be reflected in the article, side by side whenever possible. I'm not a historian, therefore, I don't want to stain the article with the things I've been taught. I think, whoever contributes should be careful not to include any preconceived bias. Otherwise, this article might never become a NPOV. (There are efforts that could lead to an understanding between people. This is being discussed by the elites of two nations right now which I think is a much better approach, a bottom-up rather than top-down. I don't really care, if it's a political or whatever stand to recognize or reject genocide, we should get over these and try to make cooperation happen between two nations.) --Muz 18:22, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Muz - you must understand that the reasons a genocide was committed shouldn't make anyone feel better about it having happened, any more than you as a Turk should feel personally guilty for what happened before you were born.  It happened.  The government did something against 2 or more million unarmed Armenian civilians and over half of them died.  While I am happy to hear your specific comments on the article, I insist you go back and read ALL the archived discussions (links available at the top of this page) about the article, before you try to raise issues that we have discussed to death already, and great (and painful) length.  In genocide, like in one on one murder, there are no "two sides to the story".  It is murder.  It is not oh, well he murdered the slave because he was afraid the slave would get away.  It is true this is not pleasant, but it is what happened, and we need to deal with it in an honest and healthy way so that it can be put firmly in the past and life can go on normally.  The Turkish government cannot even bring itself to establish diplomatic relations with Armenia, who has no preconditions itself...  how ridiculous a situation is this?  --83.217.229.146 03:03, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Local populations' participation 

message: ... is it?
This may be an illustrative point in "Turkish government denial" paragraph: 
--House of Shin 11:02, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Google it and you'll find other sites with the story; would be a good addition to the article. — Davenbelle 11:49, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
Every Armenian forumist and their supporters in the internet have a cloudy mind that every Turk and Turkcophile is a sort of Turkish governement's agent whom support denialist propaganda.Whatever they say,whatever they produce as a defence is a product of Turkish Governemet.What worse is that if Turkish governemet accepts that The Genocide was the fact  poor peasant Turks will go after their governemet as the slaves follow their masters.Anyone thinks like wise should look back our İndependence war against Greeks and their masters as well as the Sultan who were the slave master of the Turks for some cleverheads who could stop Mustafa Kemal Ataturk and its followers.Armenians and the their masters can claim what ever they want but Turkish people will never accept this kind of insult.Because it is not the truth.The truth lays in the Armenian state and The Tashnak party's  archives where all the documents are behind close doors and kept from the world..
unsigned Turk above - can I ask you just what evidence you hope to find in the "Dashnak party's archives" (?) that you think will exonerate the Young Turk controlled Ottoman governemnt from culpilability in the Genocide of Armenians. Even if your claims were entirely true (hypothetically) and the Dashnak party was intent on overthrowing the Sultanate - and had armed agents throughout Anatolia murdering innocnet Muslim civilians (can't really see the point in this - could any Armenain have really concieved of an idea to kill every Turks to free the lands of such? etc) - anyway - suppose all these things were true - can these "facts" justify the wholesale and deliberate slaughter of the Armenian race? (or do you think perhaps these death marches and masscres of Armenains were actually carried out by Dashnaks dressed up to look like Turks and thus fool the world?) - crafty and deadly Armenians - eh? - please explain and elaborate? Otherwise I fail to see your point...oh and the Armenian State Archives will likely go back until - er - perhaps 1991...there was no Armenian state in 1915 knucklehead! --THOTH 19:27, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Sorry, but changing names of biological species because of some awful ideologic reasons is simply stupid thing :-) I do not think that it is illustration of Turkian government denial, but it simply illustrates that ideological points there can go over scientific truth. Somehow it reminds me some Lysenko theories. But anyway, this curiosity should not be taken as serious argument in this article, I think. :-) --Gvorl 20:50, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is not a joke 

message: .... taken from this page.
*The crime of genocide has two elements: intent and action. “Intentional” means purposeful. Intent can be proven directly from statements or orders. But more often, it must be inferred from a systematic pattern of coordinated acts.
*Intent is different from motive. Whatever may be the motive for the crime (land expropriation, national security, territorrial integrity, etc.), if the perpetrators commit acts intended to destroy a group, even part of a group, it is genocide.
*The phrase "in whole or in part" is important. Perpetrators need not intend to destroy the entire group. Destruction of only part of a group (such as its educated members, or members living in one region) is also genocide. Most authorities require intent to destroy a substantial number of group members – mass murder. But an individual criminal may be guilty of genocide even if he kills only one person, so long as he knew he was participating in a larger plan to destroy the group.
--House of Shin 21:55, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that third point is particularly accurate. I've just been reading this source, which is linked to in the article, and it reinforces those points above. Particularly relevant is the point that "a finding of genocide does not as a legal matter depend on the participation of state actors. On the contrary, the Genocide Convention confirms that perpetrators of genocide will be punished whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals." (p14) At present, I don't believe that the article reflects this legal opinion. --bainer 06:44, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reminder of some key terms 

message: Whenever I see a "quotes" section in an article of Wikipedia, I remove it and ask those who have contributed to place the quotes on Wikiquote.  My reasoning for rejecting such sections is that we're supposed to be telling the reader about a subject, not just compiling an unstructured list of statements about it from external sources.  If a quote is relevant to the subject and has some meaning appropriate to it, include it in the appropriate part of the article as part of a paragraph describing its significance. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 12:25, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Quotes section removed

message: I have deleted this section, I don't believe a line or two require adding another section, unless it is worked, and more is added. Fadix 23:45, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Contemporary world responses to the Armenian Genocide

message: I think that section is going out of control. I also think that people fail to understand for what that section is about. It is about major events, there are daily stuff about the issue, we can not just add things wherever we want. That section need cleaning, and a standard or rules should be worked out to consider an event important enough to include it, or we will find ourselves including any insignificant things possible. Any suggestion? Fadix 02:17, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent history — timeline

message: It appears that a form of editing that at least appears consensual is (finally) beginning to develop for this article. In that respect—and considering that essentially no editing has been done to it—I suggest deleting the Armenian Genocide/Working version of the article as we continue to place more focus upon the current version. --DanielNuyu 03:00, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of Working Version

message: The site is classified in the list of racist sites by the French commission of human right and compared with right wing extremist Holocaust revisionist websites.
http://www.commission-droits-homme.fr/travauxCncdh/InternetRaciste.html
Should this information, which I consider relevent be noted next to its reference? Any comment? Fadix 02:35, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, I believe it should, first of all because readers must be aware that it potentially contains assertions that might be illegal in their own country, second because I consider it good practice to give a little comment about external links in general. --House of Shin 17:40, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: tetedeturc classified as a racist site

message: First, it is POV oriented, second, even if it were to be neutralized somehow, I believe it has no place in the timeline, because it is something continual without any specific date... you could find elsewhere in the article to make such a note. But first, present it here, so that users could first try to neutralize it. Fadix 02:49, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Thoth, about your recent add-on in the chronology

message: This article should be about armenian citizens of this land. They are not forgotten here. Turkish people still deeply feels their absence in their cultural and daily life. Even though their case has been undertaken with successors of old profiteers, we aware of the facts and we are seeking for the truth. But this article is far away from neutral. It is obviously a reference of a certain side.
On our side no one is willing to support and forgive a handfull of criminal. But other party obviously chose to be a spokesman of the murderers.
I don't know whatever these propagandists are after but after all these falsifications I'm sure they are never going to be able to make the descendants to perceive how it was to be a part of this land; to be them.
I have to say - its very difficult to acertain what you are trying to say here. You acknowledge the Genocide - but are accusing Armenians of attempting to profit from it? Is this what you are trying to say? I am confused. And who is "our side" that you relate with and this "other party" - you have not explained who you are or your position and what you claim to be falsifications and what is the source and understanding of your position on this issue. I do agree though that the article itself can be made much better.--THOTH 14:14, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: MAIN SUBJECT

message: User 85.99.245.252 is engaged in deleting references to the Armenian Genocide on related pages without discussion. If the user wants to take issue with the inclusion of an image or a reference, he or she ought to post a query on the talk page.  Whatever the concern may be, has probably been discussed before. DJ Silverfish 16:43, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: User blocked because of ignoring all warnings. Mikkalai 19:04, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  85.99.245.252 

message: I am regret to inform you that the page is protected from an extremely persistent desire of an anon editor(s) to remove some images from the page while editing from a wide range of IPs, so that user blocking is inefficient. Mikkalai 00:03, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think protecting the article will change anything, the article will always get modified, due to the intense revisionist pressure. This was why I have proposed, that hot articles such as this, a decision should be taken by a new created Wikipedian body, which would lock the article from edition to any non-registered people. Fadix 04:03, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Protected

message: Also, check out this discussion forums I came by while researching on the Internet. It can be categorised as a site that supports the genocide thesis. I personally found that one unreliable, discredible and extremely POV too. An Armenian, clearly a descendant of Ottoman Armenians tells about some events his grandparents experienced. Interesting thing is, he says his grandfather joined some Armenian "freedom fighters", raiding Turkish villages and towns and killing any Kurd and Turk he could get his hands on. Why aren't such "freedom fighters" and Ottoman Kurdish and Ottoman Turkish losses covered in this article? I advise every Wikidpedian releated in this dispute to read carefully those forums. This is a perfect example of Armenian Nationalist POV, and I think it should be too included in the article to represent the releated POV. (signed, magnus) --63.239.116.254 14:56, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, stormfront is known to be extreme right-wing. I agree that links given in the article might look implicitly endorsed. On the other hand, Turkey is filled with racists MORE than any other country??? Thoth, what do you base this comparison on? % racists in turkey vs. % racists anywhere else. Of course there are racists, nationalists, etc. This discussion style won't get YOU anywhere. (Should I explicitly say that that's the style racists would use) --Muz 05:48, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Let's not get side tracked here. Today's situation tells not much about 90 years back. First, like the issue of Cyprus, Kurds' and Christians' situation cannot be summarized in two sentences like you do. First MHP didn't even get in the Parliament in the last election because they got less than 10%, and it doesn't mean that every person voting for MHP is racist. I could reflect your arguments back here, you're talking about extremists which are not as many as you think. This is not unique to Turks and Turkey and you tend to exaggerate. You can find similar mentality in any other nation-state. Totally faulty generalizations, you're making. ASALA, it was a terrorist group that planned and carried out attacks to civilians. About the Kurds condition, I'm not saying they have been treated fairly, there were so many mistakes and wrong-doing. However, PKK, another terrorist group (probably known as being freedom fighters outside Turkey) hurt Kurds' condition so much than nothing else. I'm not trying to find an excuse but PKK is one of the most unfortunate things that could happen to the Kurd minority in Turkey. Let's not try to find examples of current day of how bad people we are. We need to look back, before the WW1 to find what we're looking for. --Muz 16:52, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Fair enough. My english might have failed me, I thought it is a baseless accusation (that we are all racists). If you are saying it's not an accusation you're making, I don't have anything to say.... Except that the Western point of view towards Turks as being barbarians, muslims, easterners, etc. have never changed. I can't blame any easterner having doubts about the west. They always have had double standards for themselves and for the "others". I'm not trying to find a counter-argument but this is true. What's my point? History can be written, we've seen examples of this many times before. My ultimate concern is that it could but shouldn't happen on Wikipedia, too. --Muz 06:15, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: You seem to see what I'm trying to get at which, I think, is important. When compared, all powerful west and the east, Ottomans looking down on themselves doesn't have much of an effect in our context. Most people, societies, cultures have racial (or non-racial) stereotypes embedded of others. As an anthropologist, you probably know better. --Muz 05:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Check this out, too 

message: Recently released, Talat's notes are the first hand historical documents. Here, I am providing you the numbers of relocated Armenians from 18 cities he had recorded; Ankara-47.224, Erzurum-128.657, Adana-46.031, Bitlis-109.251, Halep-34.451, Bursa-66.413, Diyarbakir-61.002, Sivas-141.592, Trabzon-34.500, Elazig-74.206, Izmit-54.370, Samsun-26.374, Balikesir-8.290, Afyon-7.327, Kayseri-47.616, Maras-27.101, Nigde-5.101, Konya-4.381, Total:924.158. These are from written documents. Could anyone here among the article contributors give us a serious reference to an official document which claims the death of 1.5 million Armenians? In his notes he had also written down the estimate of Armenian population in Ottoman Empire. According to his notes, by 1914 there were 1.187.818 Gregorian Armenians, 63,967 Catholic Armenians are living in the Empire and the total number was 1.256.403. He also added that there might be an error and he estimated the total population approximately as 1.500.000 which matches with Britain archives. I will also give the detailed demography of Armenian population according to his notes. And another record from his notes; after the relocation, the number of the Armenian orphans was 10.314 mostly in Halep who were later given to Turkish families in order to be brought up. He noted that after the relocation the number of the Armenians who were living in the cities, to which relocation policy had been applied, was 284.157. He also noted that there might be errors and he estimated the number as 250.000 to 400.000 (After the relocation). Besides, according to the Ottoman archives (mostly telgrams), the relocation policy was not applied to any other Christian rather than Armenians. Those, who did not obey this policy and tried to apply it to other Christians were harshly punished by Ottoman government itself. I am not a historian and my major is totally different. I cannot devote myself to these discussions, since I cannot spend effort to make an extensive research on the events. However, I believe, as the administrators your main duty should be to evaluate the historical documents of both sides. I believe you are under the influence of only very biased or one sided figures. I wish you become more neutral and more open in evaluation and rewritten of this article. --Cansın  3.45, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
::About your question, you can read this. User:Fadix/Ottoman_Armenian_Casualties The article is at a very early stage and is on my user page, I did not have much time working on it. You might as well read this entry. Ottoman_Armenian_Population
::The Talaat records seen actually suggest about 1.7 million Armenians in the entire Ottoman Empire, he finds out in his correction, about 1.5 million Armenians in Ottoman Anatolia...(more or less McCarthys figure) this is what his total number of Armenian evacuated suggest. Now if you read the second link I have provided, you'll realize that the converging number is closer to 2 million.
::BTW, can you post more about Talaats notes? I'm interested. Fadix 02:45, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Talaat Pasha's Notes, The numbers after and before the relocation

message: I added a link  about UK archives regarding the situation of refugees and minorities during Balkan War and WW1. However, it was removed because Fadix claimed that it is about only Balkan War not about Armenian events. I am copying the introduction paragraph of the documents and I am leaving it to you to decide whether it is about only Balkan War or about Balkan War and World War 1.
"...The major European transmigrations of refugees during the twentieth century date from the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire, and awakening nationalism within territories over which it once ruled. The movements for nationalism in the region led in 1912 to the first Balkan War in which Turkey lost almost all her territory in Europe, retaining Constantinople and a small region around the ancient city. The Second Balkan War broke out in 1913 arising from competing Greek and Bulgarian nationalism. The outbreak of the First World War in 1914 further complicated an existing conflict, with Greece and Serbia joining the Allied Powers (Britain, France and Russia) and Bulgaria and Turkey joining forces with the Central Powers (Germany and Austria). The indigenous populations caught up in the escalating war were victims of the changing fortunes of the major powers and their clients, and were themselves perpetrators or victims in turn as fortunes changed. There are papers related to Ottoman Turkey in FO 78 , FO 195 , FO 421  and FO 424 .
The extensive migratory movements had become a feature of the region during the period of the Second Balkan War, with hundreds of thousands of people forced to move in response to territorial realignments. The territorial boundaries imposed by the Allies on the defeated states such as Turkey created further difficulties. The desire of the politicians at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 was to achieve a political settlement that would ensure lasting peace. Among a number of measures imposed upon the region by the Allies was the enforced emigration of peoples to territories with which they had an ethnic, religious or political connection, within which they may not experience discrimination and expect some degree of security. The Treaty signed at Neuilly-sur-Seine on 27 November 1919 aimed at an enforced settlement along ethnic, religious and nationalist lines..." --Cansın  4.10, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
:: Dear yce, in this entire sentences, nowhere the Armenian term is ever mentioned, while in the FO 195, there are extensive collections of records regarding the Armenian tragedy, it also contain a lot of foreign affairs documents regarding the Ottoman, the Greeko-Turkish war etc. The only places the Armenian term is used, is regarding the League of Nations records, which is purpously censured on the page. I don't see how this link could bring anything or inform anyone regarding the subject of this entry. Most of the important points and records are about the refugees during the Balkan war, which of course is unrelated with the Armenian "question." Fadix 02:34, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fadix, I can clearly see the relationship. The source is saying that forced or voluntary relocations might be common practice during and after wars and conflicts during that period (It says that between the lines). Influential Ottomans, after seeing nationalism is breaking the empire apart, might have thought that the solution is getting rid of the ethnic components of it. My opinion about how the article should be written is to capture everything that might have factored into the situation. Empires use forceful methods to less powerful to protect their power in an area. We see examples of this in recent history, too. British know a lot about the circumstances of WWI period because they had a lot of influence in the region. My only concern is that the language in the paragraphs above might be too biased: "Among a number of measures imposed upon the region by the Allies was the enforced emigration of peoples to territories with which they had an ethnic, religious or political connection, within which they may not experience discrimination and expect some degree of security." and another one: "The desire of the politicians at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 was to achieve a political settlement that would ensure lasting peace." Politicians of several empires involved want lasting peace? Well, possible as long as they already had what they wanted. --Muz 16:17, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: UK archives about Balkan War and WW1

message: Turkey wants to join the EU, but in order to do so, they must acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. They refuse to acknowledge it, of course, so they cannot join the EU.  →  JarlaxleArtemis 02:57, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
:Correction: France suggested Turkey should acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. It's not the final word, as the talks are still going on. Thanks for your opinion, but I wouldn't speak so early. MonsterOfTheLake 03:09, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  European Union 

message: Can someone please tell me why there isn't a section, let alone a single mention, of the Malta Tribunals? Could it be because it completely retards all the "for" viewpoints? MonsterOfTheLake 03:39, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Malta Tribunals 

message: Wiki intro - I submit this in part to answer some of Coolcat's questions and because I felt like gathering some of my thoughts on this issue. While it was written without footnotes I have extensive sources that can back up pretty much everything written here. I look foreward to comments - particularly from some of our Turkish collegues...I also know that major aspects are not covered such as the role of the Germans and such (and this is not meant to discuss the actual methodology and such of the Genocide itself. I am also open to discussion of the role of Armenian violence in provoking the Turks - however I do not believe that the Armenian actions alone can account for or at all justify what occured. The key point is perhaps Young Turk perceptions of these limited Armenian activities and their overall sense of paranoia and fear of national destruction. Anyway here goes....
Otherwise intro - This is a very high level summary of course (and I particularly regret not having the time or space to elaborate on the transformation of the CUP over time – but perhaps I can present more of this at a later date) - I write this up to pass on a bit of understanding of why such a thing as the Armenian Genocide occurred and to put into context and perspective with other massacres that occurred to Armenians and other Christians of the Ottoman Empire during this period and to present an overview of the social and political situation within the last phase of the Ottoman Empire and the revolution that led to the Genocide.
We often see Turks claiming that Armenians were the first to kill Turks and that Turks were only "deporting" Armenians because Armenian "gangs" were somehow a threat to the state and were killing Turks. They claim that these actions were defensive and that there was a civil war and such - putting the burden of blame on Armenians. Of course this is the furthest thing from the truth and is in fact completely the opposite of what occurred. There is ample evidence - and incredible amount of it in fact - entirely from official Ottoman and CUP party records - as well as from accounts (descriptions and explanations of and for meetings, plans and activities) written by Ottoman and CUP members after WWI that details the intentions, plans and methods for cleansing (exterminating) Armenians and other Christians from Anatolia and the Ottoman Empire. 
Political deterioration and Christian Massacres during the late Ottoman period
Of course we are all aware of the series of large scale massacres committed under the direction of Sultan Abdul Hamid in the late 1800s and the (for over 100 years) almost continuous massacre and repression by Kurds and other nomadic chettes who roamed the Eastern provinces (having been deliberately relocated by the Ottomans into Armenian provinces for the intention of de-Americanizing them) still living off of booty and pillage as they always had done. However the intentions of the CUP directed deportations and massacres were much different (and far more sinister) then these earlier massacres. The goal of Abdul Hamid and the Ottomans was suppression of political and economic expression of the Christian minorities in order that they maintain their place in Ottoman society – as Dhimmi – religious minorities of lesser status then the Muslims of the Empire. Much like the Jews in Germany early in the 20th century the Christians of the Ottoman Empire were prospering and developing a substantial modern urban presence consisting of educated and relatively wealthy individuals. (It should be noted that the majority of the populations of each of these groups remained as they had always been – poor and agricultural – in the Armenian case - and poor and urban [ghettoized] in the Jewish case – however the perceptions among the majority groups - based on a sizable though still small percent of the population - were that these minorities were becoming enriched and more powerful – and in fact this was true as such for a segment of the population). This occurred due to education and the fact that these groups were forced into economic paths that had become lucrative but didn’t fit into the occupations that fit high social status of traditional Ottoman society – government and military service – that Christians were prohibited from joining. As a result these groups began to exercise political aspirations where before there were none. These aspirations were primarily in the form of pressing for “equal rights” – individual and in regards to property (necessary for development of stable business environments) and also included calls for ending repression, massacres and other deprivations against them. While there existed an undercurrent of nationalist sentiment – primarily among the foreign educated student population who became exposed to such concepts in Europe – the political goals of the vast majority of Armenians (those who had them at all) were for greater equality and recognition within the Ottoman system that had always been exclusively dominated by Muslim Turks. During the Tanzimat period (1839-1876) a constitution was adopted that acknowledged these concerns for equality of Ottoman citizens. However these reforms and Christian calls for greater rights were opposed by the Sultan and were only adopted by outside force of the European powers – primarily Russia, Britain and France (and all of these reforms and the constitution itself were ultimately nullified by the Sultan). Sultan Abdul Hamid’s response to Christian situational reforms was to use force and massacre to quiet the Christians and to teach them that their entreaties for help would lead to no good for them (quite the opposite) and that change was not possible. The Sultan and the Ottomans were desperate to maintain the system that legitimized them and their centuries long order and domination. 
The European powers were able to force many concessions from the Ottomans – in the political arena – at least on paper – though largely not carried out – but more importantly in the Economic arena. These concessions amounted to capitulations that gave the European powers specific legal and economic powers within the Ottoman Empire itself. These were highly resented by the Ottomans who blamed the Christian minorities for their humiliation. Thus a cycle of Ottoman massacres of minorities, European intervention, and resentment of the Christian minorities began. Additionally, the European powers were annexing Ottoman territories – often through the rational of protecting Christian minorities - and other territories were lost in war – particularly against Russia – who specifically carved a role of defender of their fellow Orthodox Christians (and took advantage of this for her own gain). As the Ottoman Empire’s fortunes waned and territory was lost to (once despised and looked down upon) foreign powers and to Christian minority uprisings (such as in Greece and in the Balkans) supported by the former States – a great resentment began to build against both outside powers and internal minorities. This was exacerbated due to the influx of hundreds of thousands of refugees from these lost territories and as a result of various Turkic groups fleeing massacre committed by Russians and the newly freed minority groups themselves who had experienced such at the hand of the Turkish overlords and were seeking revenge. Many Turks were forcibly deported from these areas as well – though most refugees were voluntarily fleeing expected and actual reprisals. The Ottomans settled a great many of these (angry and desperate) exiles into traditional Armenian provinces and areas in part accounting for and adding to the great animosity that had been building on the part of Muslim Turks – already resentful of their Empires and their own falling fortunes (due to the rising Ottoman corruption and economic impact of lost wars and crumbling Empire) and they further resented the perceived prosperity, growing status and special treatment afford the minorities.
Young Turks, Pan-Turkism and Revolution
In this environment there rose among educated Ottomans (primarily among the young military and medical fields) a desire to save the Empire and to modernize. There were however many competing and often improvised schools of thought that arose on how to achieve this. Most all on some level appeared to view the (absolute power of the) Sultanate as a relic of the past and wished for political and economic reform to break the Empire form its malaise and inferior (and rapidly falling) status vis-à-vis the European powers.  On one hand there were those who aspired to French style democracy and equal rights and responsibilities for all citizens – with the removal of ethnic distinction and restriction – who could imagine an Empire where all ethnicities could contribute and be a part of an integrated whole (still however, it should be added – under ultimate Turkish dominion). On the other hand a small but over time growing contingent of reformers emphasized nationalist Turkish (and Muslim-Turkish) aspirations to the exclusion of the Christian minorities. It is telling that nearly all who advocated this path had their roots in either the Balkans or in by then Russian held territories be it Crimea or the Caucuses and nearly all of the “Turks” were in fact not quite ethnically Turkish (and certainly not Ottoman Turkish) – but were some variant – Tartar, Bulgarian, Azeri or such – and these individuals were raised to manhood in environments where their home territories were lost to foreign Christian powers and to nationalized former Christian minorities – and this is a very key aspect to their development and thinking – particularly in regards to their perceptions concerning the remaining Christian minorities of the Empire (Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians). Eventually those who aspired for reforms were lumped together and considered as “Young Turks” (there were as well Young Ottomans who advocated concepts of reform within the Ottoman structure). All of these Turkic groups however never abandoned the concept of the Turks as the ruling people of the Empire and in fact as Turkish nationalism arose out of the defeats (and obvious bankruptcy of Ottomanism) and loss of outlying territories at the hands of Foreign and minority Christian groups there arose great enthusiasm for the concepts of Pan-Turkism and Pan-Turanism – the later being the extension of the concept of the Turkish “nation” to include all Turkic peoples of the world across Central Asia. These concepts took on greater importance to the Young Turk movement with the ascendancy of the radical wing of the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP) – the leading Young Turk political party – that adhered to these principals. 
The CUP undertook a successful coup of the government in 1908. At this time the liberal faction held sway and they reinstalled the constitution that Abdul Hamid had suspended and invited participation from representatives of the minority communities. The Armenian political parties and populace supported the new regime and were hopeful for reform. However after an Islamic student led counter-coup in 1909 (in large part in protest of this concept of elevating minority rights) led to an ascendancy of the Pan-Turkic/Pan-Islamic CUP faction that quickly passed the Law of Associations forbidding ethnically based political associations (parties) – thus banning the Armenian political parties whom in their pan-Turkic vision had become adversaries. The various CUP actions against the minorities – such as forbidding any language besides Turkish to be taught in schools – prompted protests and even revolts in the minority communities. It was this very issue that prompted the Albanian revolt in 1910 and this further turned the CUP toward a Turkic only platform (as Albanians were Muslim but non-Turkish) and further hardened the CUP against the minorities. It was beginning at this time where CUP Central Committee records and foreign observers at CUP Congresses first mention that the use of violence and force to transform the Empire and specifically against the minorities was given broad recognition within the party and was a policy (secretly) adopted at the highest levels. The Balkan War in 1912 further hardened the CUP/Ottoman elite and convinced them that there was no chance to reform the Ottoman Empire in a multi-ethnic fashion. However it should be noted that all attempts to do so up to this point all were clearly determined to enforce the concept of Turkish dominance and force the minorities to Turkify and it is no surprise that the minority groups – even the Muslim ones – reacted against this.
CUP campaign to eradicate Christians from Anatolia
By 1913 when the CUP took full control of the state with the assassination of the Grand Vizer Mahumet Sevket - Turkism was officially adopted as party policy and enactment of this vision was put into effect. Various committees were established such as the National Defense Committee and the Committee of National Independence whose aims were to Turkify the economy by force and extended the power of the party and of trusted pan-Turkist Turkish operatives throughout the Empire. These committees organized boycotts of Armenian and Greek businesses and formed volunteer armed gangs called fedai cheteler (or chettes) who were charged with committing massacres and expulsions of Christians with the explicit aim to thin their populations. What is interesting is that these actions – which began in late 1913/early 1914 occurred prior to the Ottoman’s entering the war and were concentrated in Western Anatolia – in the Aegean region and to a lesser extent in the Black Sea region – where the bulk of the prosperous Greeks resided. It is also interesting that at this time (January 1914) Enver Pasha was appointed Minister of War and under him the Special Organization was reformed with operatives sent both East and West. East to the Caucuses to prepare the Muslims there under the Russian Empire to revolt with the intention of joining the Ottoman Empire and West to massacre Greeks and Armenians along the Aegean coast. Its also interesting that a senior government official from the Tekfurdagi district who was involved in implementing these measures at the time later said that the policy was variously called “emigration” or “deportation” but that the intent was “devastation and annihilation”. As word of these massacres reached the Western powers in Istanbul a commission of Inquiry was established but by then the damage had been done – hundreds of thousands of Greeks and Armenians had been slaughtered and an estimated 500,000 ethnic Greeks were forced to flee to Greece. Later, after the bulk of the Armenian Genocide had occurred (in both 1916 and again in 1918) these massacres and expulsions resumed. The head of the Special Organization – Kushchubasi Eshref Bey - later admitted that in 1914 alone the number of Greeks and Armenians affected by his “purifying conquest operations” was 1,150,000 – with an estimate 500,000 killed! These massacres and expulsions occurred over one year prior to the more commonly known Armenian “deportations” and Genocide and they began well prior to the outbreak of World War I and there was no violence or charges of sedition to prompt them. The lack of any repercussions from these massacres must have further emboldened the CUP central committee as they contemplated their plan to eliminate the Armenians who stood between them and their Turkish brethren to the East. 
During this same period of time Ottoman military operatives and special organization members were scouring various Armenian localities charged with disarming the population (on pretext of measures being taken against violent Armenian “secret” political parties and gangs – who were outlawed and seen by the CUP as potential threats). Armenian communities that had successfully resisted massacres in the 1890s were specifically targeted and their inhabitants harassed.  Additionally, even prior to the April 1915 round up of Armenian leaders and intelligencia in Istanbul and other Armenian towns there were selected arrests and murders of Armenian political and religious leaders, and various massacres were conducted throughout Anatolia designed in part to provoke the Armenian population to revolt (which they by and large did not do) and any counteraction was used as an excuse for further repressive measures. In August of 1914 all Armenian men between the ages of 20 and 45 were subject to being drafted and resistance to this was used as an excuse to harass Armenian communities. Additionally, the Ottomans forced Armenians from all the provinces to pay enormous war contributions. All of these events occurred prior to the Ottoman Empire entering World War I and during this period all reports form the Armenian provinces suggest that there was no revolt and no significant activity whatsoever. Shortly after the Ottomans joined World War I and attacked Russia the CUP began to circulate charges of Armenian sedition and Armenian soldiers in the Ottoman Army were disarmed and converted into labor battalions. Incidents of massacre and attacks on Armenians increase significantly throughout Anatolia. Charges of sedition became particularly strident after Enver’s disastrous defeat at Sarakamish in the Caucuses in January of 1915 where additional charges against Armenians to excuse the defeat – yet Enver himself actually praised the valor of Armenian units that had saved his life. However, it was when the Allies invaded and attacked the Dardenelles in March 1915 and Istanbul itself was threatened that the “final solution” to the “Armenian Question” was put into effect. These CUP central committee decisions are well documented. In April 1915 Armenian community, political and artistic leaders from Istanbul and major Armenian towns throughout Anatolia are rounded up and taken away – most will be killed. And following the successful resistance to massacre by the Armenians of Van the CUP enact the Temporary Law of Deportations – that acts as the cover for the extermination and cleansing of Armenians from Anatolia and the Ottoman Empire. The Law of Abandoned Properties was further used to seize Armenian economic assets and complete the CUP plan to nationalize the economy and Turkify the nation. Within a year nearly all Armenians are gone from Anatolia – with more the half killed (estimated at over 1 million individuals) and most of the rest of the survivors in death camps in the Syrian desert (where nearly ½ million more would die), with a percentage escaping into Russian controlled Caucuses or elsewhere. In the years following the vast majority of the Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians – the last remaining Christian communities of the Empire – are either killed or expelled. These actions against the Christian minorities continued throughout World War I and recommenced with the advent of the Nationalist Turkish War for liberation in 1919 with actions taken against remaining Armenians in Anatolia as well as in the Armenian Caucuses where up to an additional 400,000 Armenians may have been massacred and killed. The final stage of the Turkish Genocide of its Christian communities can be said to have occurred in 1922 and 1923 with the burning of the predominantly Greek and Armenian city of Smyrna and the forced expulsion (that became a population exchange) of the remaining Greek and Christian elements of Turkey save for a small community that remained in Istanbul and a very few isolated Armenian villages that somehow escaped or who converted to Islam and were left be. However even converting to Islam did not save many of the Empires Christians as even these too were directed to be “deported” (massacred)…and today there are only a small handful of Armenians and Christians left in Turkey – again mostly concentrated in Istanbul itself. --THOTH 21:14, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins of the Armenian Genocide 

message: Correct me if I'm wrong. As I understand Fadix disputes that there was a revolt. He thinks the so called revolt was a resistance to the exodus or genocide.
I checked these revolt claims. There is a book written by Allen W.E.D. and Paul Muratoff at 50's called "Caucasian Battlefields". The book tells about the revolution activities of some armenian groups which are heavily armed. Rafael DeNogales also mentions the same facts as armenians being heavily armed in his journal "four years under crescent". 
especially on April 14, 1915 before Russian army arrives the revolutionaries took over the control at Van  which is 10 days before the exodus announcement. Also we have to note that April 25th(gallipoli), April 14th(mesopotamia), May 6th(erzurum) are the dates when allies started their attacts against Ottoman Empire. So the exodus or genocide request made by Enver Pasa regarding military objectives such protecting the as armies and roads from Armenians. But since all the men were fighting on the battlefields, the exodus is practiced by local authorities.
But again, no one claims a complete revolt of Armenians. These intentions are limited by a number of groups.
So if these activities are fact why not mention in the article? I don't think this will hurt any genocide thesis. Either way if there was an intention of exterminating the whole nation it has to be called as genocide. 
Anyway, I don't agree or disagree with the genocide. I'm just trying to find out what was on young turk's mind on those days. And regarding their numerous tragicly ended false judgements and pointless moves it is really very complicated. Knowing their ambitions and huge balkan failure it is hard to understand if these decisions made with a revenge or a fear. I think there lies the truth. 
Also I believe, late arrived nationalism ideas to anatolia has a strong connection with this subject. The Armenians and Turks awaken to this ideas nearly at the same time. Accordingly, examining the greek and bulgarian independence pattern for a possible inspiration will be helpful to understand the intentions of both sides.
Since this article is only about the genocide, in relation to this, the struggle between Turks and Armenians which is tied to a proof of intention, I think just noting these facts as additional reading will be a sensible. --Cipura 18:13, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am not ignoring you, I will answer when I have time. I happen to have read both books, and I have one of them. Fadix 18:11, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian Revolt 

message: I have reverted to Yce last edit, for the entry, which is obvious why, I have as well made slight changes(like tallarmeniantale site deleting). Yce, I have not touched your changes. I am very busy those days, so I ask people to be patient for my replies. :) Oh and, it would be nice for editors of the articles, to before editing, reading the recent changes made in the article. I say this, because sometimes dubious changes are made before a good changes, and when the article is reverted back, good changes are reverted as well, because many times, the reverter will not bother manualy add the good changes, which might as well turn into a mini "conflict" in the talk page. Oh and, if it continue like this, not only the timeline section should have its own entry, but as well the reference section. :) Anyway, I have to go. Regards. BTW Yce, my harsh words in my answers were directed at Weems, not you. I have against him since the guy shout my personal page about him. :) Fadix 19:36, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Fadix, I didn't add that www.tallarmen... website. Actually I was wondering why you or Thoth was not removing it :). I know your opinion about that website, and I do not attempt to do something which I am 100% sure that is going to be removed :). I added some other links under media and I added independent studies section. BTW, thanks for your sensitivity, I didn't get what you have said about Weems personal, don't worry ;). Regards. Cansın 19.45, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
I think many of the links under media and particularly independent studies are irrelevant or questionable for inclusion in an article such as this. Many of the media links are to articles that are just not that interesting or worthwhile to be included. Literally thousands of such articles could be posted that reflect prevailing views on the Genocide. I think that only articles of some noteworthy value should be included. And the independent studies links seem to me to be totally irrelevant to the issue.--THOTH 02:40, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: The university administration of Bosphorus University in Turkey postponed "Ottoman Armenians at decline of the Empire. Scientific Responsibility and Issues of Democracy" workshop after the threatening speech of Turkish justice minister Cemil Ciceq on May 24.
The fact of the conference's postponement was largely echoed in both Turkey and Europe. The decision of the university administration hit the headlines of many influential papers of the world.
If the Turkish press aims at minister Ciceq, the government and political parties then Europe's target is Turkey as a whole.
As a significant counterattack came the statements of the Union of Human Rights of Turkey and Turkish History Foundation on May 25. If the Union "condemns all politicians in the persons of justice minister and oppositional party speaker who do not tolerate freedom of thought in the country and threaten Bosphorus University to wreck the workshop", then the Foundation underscores that "the campaign against the workshop that launched in Mejlis is the next manifestation of Turkish chauvinism peculiar to ruling elite. It once again blocks the roads leading to democracy and mutual understanding".
Meanwhile, the organizers of the workshop turned to the American Historical Association, Middle East International Establishment and International Union of Lawyers. And Bosphorus University published a statement with 109 signatures of the University staff.
The statement expresses worry that the scientific thought is being encroached upon, condemns every political interference, indicates that it contradicts Turkey's official stance of "impartial discussion of the Armenian issue" and reveals University's resolution to hold the workshop the soonest possible.
On May 26, Bilgi University of Istanbul released an identical statement signed by 130 staff members condemning officials' encroachment on independent activities of the university. The 43 scientists including Taner Akcam, Murad Belge and Halil Berktay that were supposed to report at the workshop also came out with a statement. 
Turkish Milliyet newspaper writes about international response to the postponement in its May 26 issue. The paper writes that European diplomats commissioned in Ankara strongly opposed to the fact of rescheduling. They said that the justice minister's words disappointed them and emphasized that the statement disagrees with Prime Minister Erdogan's and Turkish parliament's position that was also widely received in the US and Europe.
Response came from the EU as well, which noted that the postponement will not assist Turkey's accession. According to Milliyet, a EU official expressed hope that Turkey will mature to openly discuss the Armenian cause. He called the suspension of the workshop "display of intolerance". 
A representative of EU Commissioner for Enlargement, Oli Ren, confirmed latter's words saying, "EU wants and contributes to creation of atmosphere of mutual trust between Armenia and Turkey. We hope that this atmosphere will have positive impact on Turkey's EU membership". Joost Lagendijk, co-chair of the EU-Turkey Joint Parliament Committee, responded from Brussels. In a written statement he said that the fact of putting the conference off will open doors for comments over absence of free scientific thought and existence of taboos in Turkey. Answering to Milliyet's question Lagendijk said, "The words of justice minister Ciceq show that in Turkey it is still the state that decides should an issue be discussed at a university or not". Those are serious responses, and Turkey is expected to hand out official reply.
Turkish Foreign Ministry accepted that the postponement of the workshop contradicts the spirit of both "Erdogan's letter to RA President Kocharian" and "reforms unfolded in the country on its way to the EU".
Opposition to the suspension of the workshop having gone far beyond Turkey's borders cannot go without consequences for Turkey. A May 26 article in Milliyet considers postponement "a big mistake", saying that it will pose Turkey to international pressure, moreover, will show Turkey as a country that does not tolerate free discussion over historic issues, thus adding momentum to Armenians efforts for getting the Genocide recognized. --THOTH 07:27, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Europe Responds To Postponed Conference In Turkey 

message: Fadix last reverted the edits of User:Yce in an apparently major removal of material,  calling it POV. While I agree that "they say, we say" writing is not appropriate, it nevertheless seems proper to force discussion here. -SV|t 23:59, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: SV, those POV edits were not mine. I have reentered some links under "Media" and "independent studies" sections which were removed by that user who entered those POV edits into the article. Check the page history , , , and please make sure. -Cansın 1.20, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Is this objective?!? Why don't you talk about Dashank and Huncak organisations, armenian terrorists who killed thousands of turks before the deportation, armenian rebellions? Why don't u put dead turks pictures too?? This article is sided and had nothing to do with honesty. You should be OBJECTIVE and give same place and importance to both ideas. When i read this article, i can't even find a little information about turkish opinion and turkish massacres commited by armenians. What's your purpose? Do want to make people believe in armenian masacre? or do u want to make people decide themselves if there was a genocide or not? Second one seems better and if so you must talk about dead turks, armenian terrorists, armenian rebellion, armenians who joined russian side while Ottoman Empire was fighting against russians, put pictures of dead turks like i did. At least you must transmit turkish opinion. Telle me WHAT'S YOUR PURPOSE?
I supose we are writing a comic book here. Where is the proof that Dashnaks and Hunchaks killed thousands prior to the Genocide? Where is the proof of "Armenian rebellion" besides the Turkish claim for such? Where is the undisputed and verified proof for all of these claims? This is not a site to transmit Turkish denmilait propoganda any more then the Holocaust entry legitimizes Nazi false claims against the Jews. The level that the Turkish side approaches this issue is - for the most part - entirely unworthy of serious discussion - as it certainly is not presented as such. The issue here is first and foremost presentation og the Armenian Genocide - an event that did occur and is acknowlwedged as such by practically every serious scholar who is familiar with is - including an overwhelming number of Holocaust scholars. I agree that the current article is seriously lacking in context and detail - however a presentation that attempts to disprove the Genocide by offering up Turkish justifications and denials is a diservice to the truth and has no place here. --THOTH 02:13, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: Genocide...
By Ahmet Altan
May 9, 2005
http://www.gazetem.net/ahmetaltan.asp
Translated by the Zoryan Institute 
I would like to ask a very simple, ordinary question. 
Would you wish to be an Armenian in 1915? 
No, you wouldn't. 
Because now you know you would have been killed. 
Please stop arguing about the number of murdered or the denials or the attempts to replace pain with statistics. 
No one is denying that Armenians were murdered, right? 
It may be 300,000, or 500,000, or 1.5 million. 
I don't know which number is the truth, or whether anyone knows the true number accurately. 
What I do know is the existence of the death and pain beyond these numbers. 
I am also aware how we forget that we are talking about human beings when we are passionately debating the numbers. 
Those numbers cannot describe the murdered babies, women, the elderly, the teenage boys and girls. 
If we leave the numbers aside, and if we allow ourselves to hear the story of only one of these murders, I am sure that even those of us who get enraged when they hear the words "Armenian Genocide" will feel the pain, will have tears in their eyes. 
Because they will realize that we are talking about human beings. 
When we hear about a baby pulled from a mother's hands to be dashed on the rocks, or a youth shot to death beside a hill, or an old woman throttled by her slender neck, even the hard-hearted among us will be ashamed to say, "Yes, but these people killed the Turks." 
Most of these people did not kill anyone. 
These people became the innocent victims of a crazed government powered by murder, pitiless but also totally incompetent in governing. 
This bloody insanity was a barbarism, not something for us to take pride in or be part of. 
This was a slaughter that we should be ashamed of, and, if possible, something that we can sympathize with and share the pain. 
I understand that the word "genocide" has a damningly critical meaning, based on the relentless insistence of the Armenians' "Accept the Genocide" argument, or the Turks' "No, it was not a genocide" counterargument, even though the Turks accept the death of hundreds of thousands of Armenians. 
And yet, this word is not that important for me, even though it has significance in politics and diplomacy. 
What is more important for me is the fact that many innocent people were killed so barbarically. 
When I see the shadow of this bloody event on the present world, I see a greater injustice done to the Armenians. 
Our crime today is not to allow the present Armenians even to grieve for their cruelly killed relatives and parents. 
Which Armenian living in Turkey today can openly grieve and commemorate a murdered grandmother, grandfather or uncle? 
I have nothing in common with the terrible sin of the past Ittihadists, but the sin of not allowing grief for the dead belongs to all of us today. 
Do you really want to commit this sin? 
Is there anyone among us who would not shed tears for a family attacked at home in the middle of the night, or for a little girl left all alone in the desert during the nightmare called "deportation," or for a white-bearded grandfather shot? 
Whether you call it genocide or not, hundreds of thousands of human beings were murdered. 
Hundreds of thousands of lives snuffed out. 
The fact that some Armenian gangs murdered some Turks cannot be an excuse to mask the truth that hundreds of thousands of Armenians were murdered. 
A human being of conscience is capable of grieving for the Armenians, as well as the Turks, as well as the Kurds. 
We all should. 
Babies died; women and old people died. 
They died in pain, tormented, terrified. 
Is it really so important what religion or race these murdered people had? 
Even in these terrifying times there were Turks who risked their lives trying to rescue Armenian children. 
We are the children of these rescuers, as well as the children of the murderers. 
Instead of justifying and arguing on behalf of the murderers, why don't we praise and defend the rescuers' compassion, honesty, and courage? 
There are no more victims left to be rescued today, but there is a grief, a pain, to be shared and supported. 
What's the use of a bloody, warmongering dance around a deep pain? 
Forget the numbers, forget the Armenians, forget the Turks, just think of the babies, teenagers, and old people with necks broken, bellies slashed, bodies mutilated. Think about these people, one by one. 
If nothing moves in you when you hear a baby wail as her mother is murdered, I have nothing to say to you. 
Then add my name to the list of "traitors." 
Because I am ready to share the grief and pain with the Armenians. 
Because I still believe there is something yet to be rescued from all these meaningless and pitiless arguments, and that something is called "humanity."
Soykirim... 
Çok basit ve siradan bir soru sormak istiyorum. 
1915 yilinda bir Ermeni olmak ister miydiniz? 
Istemezdiniz. 
Çünkü öldürüleceginizi biliyorsunuz simdi. 
Öldürülenlerin kaç kisi oldugunu iddialarla ve inkarlarla tartisip,
yasanan bütün acilari rakamlara indirgemeyi bir yana birakin. 
Ermenilerin öldürüldügünü reddeden kimse yok, degil mi? 
Üç yüz bin kisi, bes yüz bin kisi, bir milyon kisi ya da bir buçuk milyon
kisi. 
Rakamlarin hangisinin tam gerçegi gösterdigini bilmiyorum, kesin rakami
bilen biri var mi ondan da emin degilim. 
Bildigim, bu rakamlarin arkasinda insanlarin, ölümlerin ve acilarin
oldugu. 
Rakamlari sehvetle tartisirken aslinda insanlardan bahsetmekte oldugumuzu
unuttugumuzun farkindayim yalnizca. 
O rakamlar öldürülen bebekleri, kadinlari, yaslilari, delikanlilari, genç
kizlari anlatmiyor bize. 
Eger bu büyük rakamlari bir kenara birakip öldürülen insanlardan yalnizca
bir tanesini 
n hikayesinin bize anlatilmasina izin versek, bugün "Ermeni soykirimi"
lafini duyunca öfkeden çildiranlarin bile içlerinin aciyacagina,
gözlerinin yasaracagina eminim. 
Çünkü o zaman insanlardan söz edilmekte oldugunu farkedecekler. 
Annesinin kucagindan kopartilip taslara çarpilarak öldürülen bir bebegi,
bir dagin yamacinda kursuna dizilen delikanliyi, ince boynu sikilarak
bogulan bir yasli kadini bize anlattiklarinda "onlar da Türkleri
öldürmüslerdi" demekten en tas kalplilerimiz bile utanir. 
Onlarin çogu kimseyi öldürmemisti. 
Iktidarlarini cinayetlere yaslamis, insafsiz oldugu kadar beceriksiz bir
yönetimin tutuldugu bir cinnetin kurbani oldular onlar. 
Bu kanli cinnet ne övünebilecegimiz ne paylasabilecegimiz bir vahset. 
Bu, utanacagimiz ve mümkünse acisini paylasacagimiz bir katliam. 
Ermenilerin, atalarinin yasadigi dramlari bile neredeyse bir kenara
birakarak "soykirim oldugunu kabul edin" diye tutturmalarindan, Türklerin
de yüz binlerce insanin ölümünü kabul ederken bile "hayir, asla soykirim
degildi" diye diretmesinden bu "soykirim" sözcügünün lanetli bir önemi
oldugunu seziyorum. 
Ama gene de, bu sözcük politikada ve diplomaside nasil bir önem tasirsa
tasisin benim için büyük bir önem tasimiyor. 
Masum insanlarin vahsice öldürülmüs oldugu gerçegi, bu gerçegin adindan
daha önemli benim için. 
Bu büyük dramin günümüze düsen gölgesine baktigimda ise Ermenilere 
yapilan bir baska büyük haksizligi görüyorum. 
Yakinlarini zalimce cinayetlere kurban vermis olanlarin bugün bu aci için
yas tutmalarina izin vermemek bizim suçumuz. 
Bugün Türkiye'de hangi Ermeni öldürülen büyükannesi, dedesi, amcasi için
açikça yas tutabilir? 
Ittihatçilarin isledigi korkunç günahla bir ortakligim yok ama yas
tutmalarina bile izin verilmemesinin günahi bugün hepimize ait. 
Bu günahi islemek istiyor musunuz gerçekten? 
Aranizda bir geceyarisi evi basilan bir ailenin öldürülmesine, annesini
kaybeden küçük bir çocugun tehcir denilen o mahserde yapayalniz 
kalmasina,
ak sakalli bir Ermeni dedesinin vurulmasina göz yasi dökmeyecek kimse var
mi? 
Adina ister soykirim deyin ister demeyin, yüz binlerce insan öldürüldü. 
Yüz binlerce hayat söndü. 
Ermeni çetelerin de Türkleri öldürmüs olmasi Ermenilerin öldürülmüs 
oldugu gerçegini gözlerden saklayacak bir mazeret olmamali bence. 
Insan vicdani öldürülen herkes için, Ermeniler için, Türkler için, 
Kürtler için yas tutabilir. 
Bana sorarsaniz tutmalidir da. 
Bebekler öldü, kadinlar, yaslilar öldü. 
Aci çekerek, aglayarak, dehsete düserek öldüler. 
Öldürülenlerin irklari ve dinleri gerçekten o kadar önemli mi sizin için? 
O korkunç zamanlarda bile Ermeni çocuklarini kurtarmaya çalisan, bunun
için kendi hayatini tehlikeye atan Türkler vardi. 
Biz, öldürenlerin çocuklari oldugumuz kadar kurtarmaya çalisanlarin da
çocuklariyiz. 
Öldürenlerin vahsetine sahip çikmak yerine kurtaranlarin merhametine,
dürüstlügüne, cesaretine neden sahip çikmayalim? 
Bugün kurtarilacak kurbanlar yok ama kurtarilacak, sahip çikilacak,
desteklenecek bir yas var. 
Agir bir yasin çevresinde kanli bir totem dansina dalmanin nasil bir
yarari olacagini düsünüyorsunuz? 
Rakamlari unutun, Ermenileri unutun, Türkleri unutun, boyunlari kirilan,
karinlari desilen, vücutlari parçalanan bebekleri, gençleri, kadinlari
yaslilari düsünün yalnizca. 
Bütün o insanlari tek tek düsünün. 
Içinizde en küçük bir kipirti bile olmuyorsa, annesi öldürülürken aglayan
bir bebegi düsündügünüzde gözünüzde bir dirhem gözyasi belirmiyorsa, size
söylenecek bir sözüm yok. 
O zaman benim adimi "hainlerin" arasina yazin. 
Çünkü ben öldürülen onca insanin yasini Ermenilerle birlikte tutmaya
hazirim. 
Bütün bu acimasiz ve anlamsiz tartismalarin ortasinda hala kurtarilacak
bir sey olduguna ve ona da "insanlik" dendigine inaniyorum çünkü. 
9 Mayis 2005, Pazartesi
Of course turkish denials don't have place here cause if you add the pictures of dead turks, this will harm your thesis. Why don't you put this pictures? Do you want proof? Everybody knows that dashnak and hunchak organisations were supported by russians. Do you know how many weapons were found in Anatolia? Tell me what did armenians do with weapons, did they hunt birds? Did thousands of turks suicide? Do you know that mass graves have been found in East Anatolia where armenians killed thousands? I don't mean that the massacres commited by turks were normal but massacres commited by armenians weren't good too. Children, women who died there because of armenian terrorist attacks deserve to be remembered like armenians. 3.1 million people died there, you are only talking about armenians what about others? kurds, turks?
Anonymous poster - first of all your 3.1 million claim is patently absurd. Halil Berktay believes that the number of Turks whose deaths can be attributed to Armenians (in ther period of 1915-1920 give or take) is likely no more then 10,000. Sure still significant - but most of this was after 1916. Again it is absurd to claim or think that Armenians had any capability to do such even if they wished. Secondly after the ascendency of the CUP in 1908 the Armenian revolutionary groups (who were quite small in number at this time anyway) largely took a wait and see approach and advocated (and expected) constitutional reform. Third, after the international outcry began to mount concerning Armenian deaths even with intense effort to prevent such word getting out - Talat Pasha issued a call to regional govenors and CUP operatives to dig up information to inciminate Armenians. Almost all of this was faked or minsreported information - even the pictures of so called Turks and very particualry pictures of weapons. There are notable examples of supposed Armenian weapon stockpiles that consist of Ottoman army weapons - and this fact is confirmed by Refael de Nogales in his book Four Years Beneath the Crescent ...and speaking of that book I would say it is a must read on this subject - quite damning - and produced by an on the spot insider who reports his eyewitness testimony as well as revelations of incredible candor from CUP and other Ottoman government officials. So in the end your counter-claims just don't add up. On the other hand the known and observed and documented facts of the Armenian Genocide are just that. Your call to show pictres of dead Turks allegedly killed by Armenians as some sort of counter to the crimes of the Armenian Genocide planned and executed with premeditation and intent of extermonation of the entire Armenian people are the equivilent of some Neo-Nazis showing pictures of dead Germans killed by Jews of Lodz or Warsaw and shouting out - see those murderous Jews - they were killing Germans and for that their entire race had to be exterminated! --THOTH 06:56, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  One Turk's eloquent call for Genocide recognition 

message: Including Talat Pashas notebook - obvioulsy something that was produced for political purposes - if even by himself - is spurious information. Its also way too long IMO even if it is to be included. It strikes me the same as including Hitler's account of the nice treatment of Jews during the war as part of the Holocaust entry - just as valid IMO.
Also many the media entries and the so called Independent Studies section are off topic or just trivial - specifically those entries under independent studies do not relate to the genocide in any direct way whatsover and I am giving notice that I will be removing them shortly unless there is consensus not too.
I also find the repetition of the discredited Turkish Government official denial postions as contained in the Fein and Sonyal articles in particualr to be distasteful and insulting. In denying the Armenian Genocide - an event that has been factualy proven over and over again in academic circles and by definition - by Lemkin's specific definition - I am insulted and deeply grieved. Again - denial of the holocaust is a crime in some places - and it certainly is never something that anyone would just do in front of a Jew or in front of any thinking and feeling person. For Turks to continue to deny this Genocide and continue to argue and press these secondary points as some kind of rational or justification for what was done is in my opinion highly hurtful, insulting and inconsiderate and it must stop. We need to get on with proper discussion of the issue already and it can never be done in this environment where no matter how many very clear and unassailable proofs and verifications are put forth various Turks and the Turkish government believes it can continue to deny this historical event and insult Armenians to their face. --THOTH 07:58, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I will cut this short, I will be probably having some time soon to answer all the answers I own here. I just want to make a point. I do believe that many entries in the timeline have no place here, but Talaat notebook is not one of them. It is not everyday that we get lists comming from Talaat notebooks. There is a mistake though in the insinuation from it that that it indciate 1.5 million, the correction applied and the cities listed, when including the entire Ottoman Empire, would indicate about 1.7 million according to this notebook. As for Fein and Sonyal articles, they are articles, and we can do nothing about them, they exist, so be it. Fein is a lawyer, and will defend his clients(ATAA in this cases), I do believe that his association with ATAA as his client should be indicated, for public information, but pass that, we can not delete media publications. Fadix 02:53, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding the Talat Pashas notebook entry and other media entries etc 

message: Many Turks today repeat the charges made by the CUP subsequent to their decision to massacre and deport Armenians from Anatolia that Armenians were in open rebellion, were assisting Russians and that gangs of Armenians were going around murdering innocent Turks. I contend that the evidence does not support these contentions - and certainly not for for the period from the CUP revolution in 1908 up through the beginnings of (Turkish entry into) WWI. Certainly there was a great deal of sympathy with the allies among many Armenians - but this can be considered reasonable considering the massacres of the recent past (1890s) and considering that the CUP had unleashed the Special Organization gangs of irregulars upon Armenians of the eastern provinces (as well as even earlier against Greeks and Armenians of the Aegean regions). All this is well documented. Concerning the performance of Armenian troops there are mixed accounts - well certianly there were desertions - as there were with Turks, Kurds and Arabs at alarmingly huge rates (in some cases Ottoman reports indicate desertion rates of up to 50% [for Muslim forces] before some battles and there are numerous reports of entire Kurdish regiments quiting battles for various reasons. So Armenian desertions were nothing out of the ordinary. Did some join the Russian side - undoubtably yes - again considering the situation this should not be surprising (just as Muslims from the Caucuses joined the Ottoman forces and in fact were actively recruited by the Special Organization to do so). However I have seen corroborated reports from German and Armenian sources that after Sarikamish Enver actually praised the valor and loyalty of Armenian troops - a group of whom is reported to have saved his life. Anyway I want to post some revealing exerpts from German Ambassador Von Wangenheim's April 15 1915 report back to Germany:
German archives # DE/PA-AA/R14085
"Pera, 15 April 1915 
From the news from East Anatolia it is obvious that the relations between the Turkish Muslim population and the Armenians, which were already tense beforehand, have worsened even more in the course of the past few months. The mutual mistrust is growing and dominating the people and official circles, both in the interior as well as in the capital. 
The complaints about the alleged and actual persecution which the Armenians are suffering as a result of the war are increasing in number and volume; on the other hand, they are being accused of sympathising with the Empire's enemies...
Each side is revoking the accusations of the other party as unfounded, or the blame for such events is being put on the others. There only seems to be agreement on one point: that the Armenians have given up their ideas of a revolution since the introduction of the Constitution and that there is no organisation for such a revolt. 
Without doubt, excesses and acts of terror have taken place against the Armenians in eastern Anatolia and, in general, the events have probably been related correctly by the Armenian side, even if they were somewhat exaggerated.
For the events in these areas, the following are being made responsible by the Armenian side: 
1. The irregulars and bands of marauders organised in military fashion and bearing the title Militia; these are being blamed for numerous plunders, murders, for robbery and other acts committed against the Armenian population of the country. 
2. The clubs affiliated with the Comité Union et Progrès, in which many dishonest elements are said to be present. It is said that these clubs, in particular the one in Erzerum, have set up formal proscription lists, and a series of political murders which were committed on various respected Armenians since December of last year are attributed to their activities. It is added that the Ministry of the Interior is said to have been warned some time ago by the Armenians about the activities of these clubs which have already played a disastrous role during the events at Adana in 1909. 
3. Various civil servants, in particular the governor of Musch (Vilayet Bitlis) and the Vali of Van. It is stated amongst other things that some 2000 Muslim families from the Russian occupied district of Alaschgerd, who are hardly in a position to pay for their own keep, have been accommodated in the Armenian villages of Musch; the Armenian farmers were being used like draft animals to transport ammunition and provisions and many of them died from this inhumane treatment; the least of them, it is said hardly a quarter, returned to their villages. 'In two districts of Van formal butcheries took place under the connivance of the Kaymakams'. 
it is emphasised that the Armenians – a fact which, one might note, is contested by the Turks - despite all the suffering they have been subjected to, are behaving loyally and correctly, but at least passively. However, under a continued, systematic persecution it can be feared that this peaceful attitude may take a turn to the contrary; the parties loyal to the government, such as the Daschnakzutiun, would no longer be able to hold back the masses and there would be a danger that, if the Russians advanced, not only the Armenians in the invaded area would go over to the side of the enemy, but also possible insurrections would be aroused behind the backs of the Turkish Army. 
The appeal to the nobile officium of the German representation in Turkey is understandable following the development of the Armenian question, but especially now when, as a result of the war, the Triple Entente is eliminated as protectors. But an attempt at complying with this appeal and taking on the role that England after the Berlin Congress, and most recently Russia, have played as protector of the Armenians, would be regarded by the Porte as an unjustified and annoying intervention in their internal political affairs. The moment is even less suitable since the Porte has just made the effort to eliminate the protective rights, which other foreign powers have exercised over Turkish subjects. The Porte must also have respect for the national awareness of the Turkish elements, which has drastically increased over the past few years.
As far as the considerations otherwise presented by the Armenian side are concerned, they deserve serious attention.
...the present atmosphere in government circles...is most unfavourable for the Armenians...
I also believe that the increase in the number of German consulates in the so-called Armenian provinces, initiated in this connection, would not fulfil its purpose. It is probable that the Porte would see in this the attempt on our part to have their own authorities supervised...a procedure of this kind would have the consequence of setting the authorities against the Armenians even worse than ever and, therefore, of achieving results of just the opposite kind." 
So from the above one can see that violent actions are already occuring against the Armenians (as we know by centrally directed Special Organization irregular units as part of a grand plan) with no mention of the reverse (Armenians are amazingly docile and quite considering - with individuals fleeing and deserting to the other side only) - which surely would have been mentioned by Turkey's ally it would seem. Also there is concern that the Turkish population and leadership is increasingly anti-Armenian and prone to take violent anti-Armenian action - because of the perception of foreign Armenians fighting with the Russians and the potential that Ottoman Armenians would show sympathy to the Russians if Russia were to acheive victory. And as an added note I will say that we do later see this in addition to Armenian, Cossak and Russian units commiting atrocites against Muslim civilians in areas that come under there control - however - prior to the decision of deportation and genocide and prior to the CUP organizing the special organization to sen dout irregulars (released from jails, and from the Muslim refugee and Kurdish populations) - we see no appreciable Armenian violence against Turks and certainly no armed rebellion of any kind. --THOTH 20:49, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish charges of Armenian insurection and violence towards Turks - prior to WWI 

message: I want to ask why the Armenian government is not disclosing their archives in spite of  the Turkish government disclosed the archives?
I want to ask how can you ignore the massacre activities by Armenians against Non-Armenians in the Eastern Anatolia Sector in 1915?
How can you say that the photographs in the page which was named "Armenian Genocide" are real, how can you prove that these photographs are really belonging to the armenians?
How can you ignore the anthropological searches in the mass graves which were belong to Turks that overrules the "Armenian Thesis" ( Note: Turkish Government admitted the international observers)
aozan 22:36, June 12 , 2005
Armenian Archives have always been open (and unrestricted - contrary to Turkish Archives) and there even has been at least one Turkish researcher working in them (recently reported in the press - his account of such and it being unrestricted to him). This - like your issue with photographs and supposed mass graves of Turks are nothing new but smokescreens. Photos are documented BTW - and were mostly all taken by Germans and brought out of Ottoman territories even under extreme censorship rules. And "mass graves" of Turks - OK - but prove who killed them. Did you know that the CUPs Special Organization was implicated in mass slaughters of Turkish villagers in 1915? Oh yes - the head of the Ottoman 3rd Army even cout marshalled Sakir in abstensia (one of at least two times such was done with him) and the Ottoman 3rd Army commander sent reports to Istanbul concerning the out of control atrocities being commited by the SO - even against muslims. He further asked that the SO be disbanded entirely for such. But what did the CUP do - they just transfered the SO out from under army control and instead directed them directly from the Interior Ministry. And even if there were instances of Turks killed by Armenians - and there were - when did these killings occur? Under shose orders? How many were actually killed in total (nad again when and by whom)? etc - these suposed counter-charges prove nothing as they fail to address the fact that orders from the CUP to exterminate (liquidate) Armenians are fact - the total cleansing and slaughter of Armenians under Ottoman Government direction are fact and the Armenian Genocide is fact. Prove to me that these things of which I speak did not occur...--THOTH 16:15, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but what kind archives you both are discussing about? As far as I know, there were no such thing as Armenian government, Armenian state or anything similar on period of Armenian genocide. So, any talks about open or closed Armenian Archives where secret information is stored seems to me bit nonsense. --Gvorl 14:35, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  WHY THE ARMENIAN GOVERNMENT IS NOT DISCLOSING THEIR ARCHIVES ? 

message: - aozan 22:43, June 12 , 2005
Here are some page names that prove that Hitler and Elvis are alive and well and living on the moon...on second thought I think I'll stick to facts and real evidence and I suggest that you do the same...--THOTH 16:16, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Here some page names about so-called Armenian genocide 

message: How can you say that "Armenian Genocide Congress in Istanbul was cancelled by Turkish government" what is the source of this information, can you show it in here is this a neutral source ? I think you can not show because the Turkish Government did not officially cancelled it ,there were no actions by police or another governmental association against the so called-Armenian Genocide Congress. Is there any evidence that shows that there is an offical charge by any governmental association in Turkey ? Please show it in here. I am waiting.
This has already been presented in great detail - see above. --THOTH 14:36, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  TURKISH GOVERNMENT DID NOT CANCELLED THE CONGREGATION ABOUT ARMENIAN GENOCIDE 

message: BERNARD LEWIS CONDEMNED FOR HAVING DENIED THE REALITY OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE! 
Mr THOTH please read it to the bitter end:
In Turkey you can't see a sentenced or condemned person because of defending Armenian Genocide , but as you see in the Western Countries (I think that you are living in a Western Country also) , there is a governmental pressure on the historians and scientists. How can a scientist can be neutral and objective in this condition. How can you say to me that "You are parroting the common decision in Turkey" while you are doing the same thing in your country. On the other hand the sources that you showed are "Armenian Sources"  (And excuse me but what is the meaning of BTW, how can you say that this is a respectible and neutral source). Also Yeftan Turkyilmaz is probably an armenian, because "Yeftan" is not a TURKISH NAME! But I will read the book that you said, but writing a book about "Armenian Genocide" doesn't make an author an authority. But I am not a nationalist as you thought, I hate from Recep Tayyip Erdogan , I am not a conservative also, I believe in Socialism, I am against your decision because I am irritated by this crime against Non-Armenians committed by Armenians, also the crimes that Turks did to the Armenians, if you were here, near me I could show you a book printed in Turkey, written by a man that describes himself as a Marxist , that only contains photographs about brutality in the Eastern Anatolia, it contains both Armenian and Turkish victims. In my opinion the Turks and Armenians were killed each other. I don't think that there is a systematical ethnic annihilation by Ottoman Government. Also I have Kurdish friends in the university, some of them came from Igdır , Kars and Malatya. One of them is Tacim Polat (He was born in Elbistan, Malatya),he told me that his grand mother was told him that the Armenians were killed her pregnant mother in these facts . HOW CAN YOU IGNORE THESE PEOPLE ? My grand mother was born in Mardin, do you know what happened in there , in 1915 ? You think that you know the real but how can you make judgments without restraint while you are not living in here! I am living in the lands where these facts has happened. Your relatives weren't die in these facts I see . I am sorry my friend but I can't accept your decisions. Furthermore I am not your enemy, also not an enemy to Armenians too. But these arguments make the people in Turkey enemy to each other. If the United Nations take a decision that "There was a genocide against Armenians by Ottoman Turkish Government" , I can't say you anything more but there is not an adopt like this. So your allegations are unfounded and not suitable for international law YET. Have Nice Day My Friend , Mr THOTH - aozan 21:24 14 June 2005
Aozan - Your entirely incorrect to claim that "I don't think that there is a systematical ethnic annihilation by Ottoman Government." There is such overwhelming and ample proof of this fact that it is indeed beyond contention. Much as Lewis was prosecuted in France for denying the Armenian Genocide other "so-called" scholars who have denied the Holocaust have been prosecuted elsewhere. These events are facts and denial is perpetuation. As far as I'm concerned - considering the evidence at hand Lewis - who has been seen to dileberatly distort and omit facts should be exposed even further then he has been. I won't discount that some Armenians have commited acts against innocent Turks in various times and places - but these largely isolated instances (particularly in the period prior to 1916 since the intital CUP revolution of 1908 cannot be seen as any rebellion or revolution and in fact arguably more violence was commited against Turks by Kurdish bands during this period then by any Armenians. The Armenian Genocide is entirely well proven as my presentation here will soon demonstrate. In fact the UN has ruled not once but I think 3 times concerning the veracity of the Armenian Genocide. It amazes me that so many Turks seem completely unaware of facts in this regard and cannot seem to comprehend that there is more then sufficient documentation that proves the charge of Genocide and that the countercharge of (any comnparable) Armenian atrocities against Turks is no more then a smokescreen. Please do try to read some balanced scholarly analysis and not just (discredited and rightfuly not believed) Turkish propoganda. --THOTH 18:38, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please read it to the bitter end 

message: Gvorl thinks he knows a way to deal with such conflicts, he present his proposition here and we discuss. I have also a proposition. First, Thoth thinks he can do better with the article, I proposed him to try merging the information already in the article in his attempt and present it here. I will edit it. And after completing this, Yce could give his opinion and make propositions. We could then cut pieces by pieces the edit and propose a suggestion for each pieces and if they are OK. Then, we could pass to a vote, not on if what is writen in the article are facts or not, but rather if the positions are correctly presented.
After this, we may perhaps change this version, and after completing it, adding a banner like this.
Please read the Talk:Armenian_Genocide (and its archives) before making any substantial changes, and post your editing proposals there first. Otherwise, your edits might be revoked.
Fadix 19:57, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is not possible to answer to this "why?". Simply here is such situation that we have two different positions. And we all (all the Wikipedia community) can not simply decide here that one position is right and other one is wrong, because of some of us actually are supporting different positions. Wikipedia is a community driven by actual consensuses but not by elitism (authorities). So, here is the only way which (I hope) can be successful for both sides: write article in such manner that it would be impossible to discuss its accuracy, and not by simply presenting contradictory POVs, but simply by structure where each fact or consequence of facts can be analyzed clearly. Strictly defining subject and terms, clearing the structure and grading the sources may be the way. And discussion topics freezing is simply needed to calm down any flames and get to actual analysis. --Gvorl 21:34, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: The last thing about Ottoman Empire is simply politcorrectnes: No all the Otoman Empire people was responsible for any casualities. The some GOVERNMENT or political group was reponsible for any. When you distinct such things like difference between country (people) and government (political group), you get much more understanding from your opponent. (I had emphasised as bad thing exactly claims against the country (or its people), but not against the government). It is simple: any accusation interfere with any positive discussion. Actually, in the abstract, you can write good and truthful article without politcorrectnes, but it will be very difficult, simply because lots of your opponents will hamper the development. --Gvorl 03:12, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: THOTH, can you provide us what you mean by "substansial portion of the Ottoman Muslim population"? Give us a figure so that we know what you're talking about. Was it 50%? Was it 2 million? What do your sources say about it? --Muz 00:11, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conflict resolution 

message: I would like to emphasize few things about this conflict at first. This conflict is really unsolvable (see below, "Situation"). Leave any hope that any position (Armenian or Turkian) will become accepted by opposing side. The only thing we can do here - make positions as clear as possible and avoid further conflicts.
This Wikipedia conflict is a continuation of the conflict which started maybe 100 years ago. And now, in Wikipedia, somebody can win only by consensus: you can win something only if you yeld to something. I would like to suggest strong formalization of the discussion: such formalisation will be something you'll give to each other to win the some truth.
And the last thing (it is only my opinion, I do not pretend to discuss it here): both sides of this conflict were victims. And not victims of the each other, but victims of the some corrupted political group. Try to understand this: not only armenians but turks too were victims and both was used by the same government, but simply in different ways.
Sure Turks were victims - many Turkics and other Muslims suffered terribly in years of 19th centry primarily as the Empire collapsed. And all Ottoman citizens suffered under the yolk of misrule of the Sultans in recent centuries that could not adapt to the changing times and fortunes. And all suffered from the horrible zealotry and desperation of the CUP/Young Turks...agreed...and all suffered due to the horros of World War I - in differening degrees...but only the Armenians experienced a Genocide as a people and only Armenians were deliberatly set upon and exterminated and were subject to mass barbarities and cruelties beyond immagination - and until this is examined in proper perspective it is impossible to likewise accuratly examine and understand all of these other events. One cannot concoct a false history of one period and expect to portray and understand prior and subsequant historical events - these are all related and interconnected and cannot be accuratly seen in isolation or through the lens of falsity. --THOTH 02:57, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is not possible to answer to this "why?". Simply here is such situation that we have two different positions. And we all (all the Wikipedia community) can not simply decide here that one position is right and other one is wrong, because of some of us actually are supporting different positions. Wikipedia is a community driven by actual consensuses but not by elitism (authorities). So, here is the only way which (I hope) can be successful for both sides: write article in such manner that it would be impossible to discuss its accuracy, and not by simply presenting contradictory POVs, but simply by structure where each fact or consequence of facts can be analyzed clearly. Strictly defining subject and terms, clearing the structure and grading the sources may be the way. And discussion topics freezing is simply needed to calm down any flames and get to actual analysis. --Gvorl 21:34, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: The last thing about Ottoman Empire is simply politcorrectnes: No all the Otoman Empire people was responsible for any casualities. The some GOVERNMENT or political group was reponsible for any. When you distinct such things like difference between country (people) and government (political group), you get much more understanding from your opponent. (I had emphasised as bad thing exactly claims against the country (or its people), but not against the government). It is simple: any accusation interfere with any positive discussion. Actually, in the abstract, you can write good and truthful article without politcorrectnes, but it will be very difficult, simply because lots of your opponents will hamper the development. --Gvorl 03:12, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: THOTH, can you provide us what you mean by "substansial portion of the Ottoman Muslim population"? Give us a figure so that we know what you're talking about. Was it 50%? Was it 2 million? What do your sources say about it? --Muz 00:11, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure of the conflict 

message: The most specific process in discussions here - cyclic repetition of discussion topics. For example, discussion about sources, discussion about international recognition, discussion about armenian terrorists, etc.. Such repetitions interfere with any effective factual analysis, so I would like to suggest one thing:
* After some topic was discussed, describe final positions and important data you got.
** Such description of final positions should be acceptable for all and it should not describe "reality" or "truth", but only positions, claims and facts which are presented by the discussion participants.
* Then freeze this discussion topic.
* Any further discussion on such topic should be performed only after new facts on the topic are got.
* Any other tries to repeat such discussion should be rejected unconditionally.
Why are Turkish nationalists turning fact such as the Armenian Genocide into debate, it happend, proof from both Armenians themselves and foreign witnesses who were there at the time and saw it for themselves such as American doctor Clarence Ussher whose notes on the events he saw were made into a film entitled Ararat (which was discredited in Turkey) There is no need to see "both" sides of the coin, how would people feel if Germany began to deny the holocaust and begin to focus on the poor SS men who were killed during the Warsaw uprising or various other concentration camp uprisings by Jews, we would be appaulled if this happend. Turks need to forget what they were taught by their own bias schools whose curriculum taints the truth, the world knows what happend, the world saw what happend and there is a Turkish conspiracy to hide and cloud the truth from their own people and the rest of the world.
Why are Turkish nationalists turning fact such as the Armenian Genocide into debate, it happend, proof from both Armenians themselves and foreign witnesses who were there at the time and saw it for themselves such as American doctor Clarence Ussher whose notes on the events he saw were made into a film entitled Ararat (which was discredited in Turkey) There is no need to see "both" sides of the coin, how would people feel if Germany began to deny the holocaust and begin to focus on the poor SS men who were killed during the Warsaw uprising or various other concentration camp uprisings by Jews, we would be appaulled if this happend. Turks need to forget what they were taught by their own bias schools whose curriculum taints the truth, the world knows what happend, the world saw what happend and there is a Turkish conspiracy to hide and cloud the truth from their own people and the rest of the world.
: I think it is not possible to answer to this "why?". Simply here is such situation that we have two different positions. And we all (all the Wikipedia community) can not simply decide here that one position is right and other one is wrong, because of some of us actually are supporting different positions. Wikipedia is a community driven by actual consensuses but not by elitism (authorities). So, here is the only way which (I hope) can be successful for both sides: write article in such manner that it would be impossible to discuss its accuracy, and not by simply presenting contradictory POVs, but simply by structure where each fact or consequence of facts can be analyzed clearly. Strictly defining subject and terms, clearing the structure and grading the sources may be the way. And discussion topics freezing is simply needed to calm down any flames and get to actual analysis. --Gvorl 21:34, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The last thing about Ottoman Empire is simply politcorrectnes: No all the Otoman Empire people was responsible for any casualities. The some GOVERNMENT or political group was reponsible for any. When you distinct such things like difference between country (people) and government (political group), you get much more understanding from your opponent. (I had emphasised as bad thing exactly claims against the country (or its people), but not against the government). It is simple: any accusation interfere with any positive discussion. Actually, in the abstract, you can write good and truthful article without politcorrectnes, but it will be very difficult, simply because lots of your opponents will hamper the development. --Gvorl 03:12, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: THOTH, can you provide us what you mean by "substansial portion of the Ottoman Muslim population"? Give us a figure so that we know what you're talking about. Was it 50%? Was it 2 million? What do your sources say about it? --Muz 00:11, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cyclic repetitions