Talk:Tricycle: The Buddhist Review

message: ==General Discussion==
This page should be written not as a marketting tool of the magazine, but objectively, providing information about its beginnings and why it is often reviled for being elitist and unethical in its administration and with respect to fundraising.
This being so, those things need to be cited from respectable sources. Criticism is welcome, but please cite it accordingly. --ShadowPuppet 16:42, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can't document things "off-site", and Zen Unbound looks rather junky to me. I wouldn't accept any information from there as reliable. See this: Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Cite your sources. If there's something that's uncited, add a citation tag to it or remove it and state your reason here. --DanielCD 14:12, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Zen Unbound is a fully credible source that documents its assertions.  What is junky, presently, is this Tricycle article which uses bloviated text, verbatim, from Trike's website and advertising.  It is irresponsible and is a circumstance you are enforcing.  Shame on you. --Enkido 16:07, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: If they are public records, then it would be fine to use them. But remember this isn't the place for original research. See: Wikipedia:No original research. You're going to have to find another reputable source that makes the same accusation (and I don't think Zenunbound.com counts, but feel free to get other opinions). --DanielCD 19:12, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm sympathetic with you as far as having the truth be told, but there has to be a public, formally-published accusation firmly cited. I'll try to find someone who might be able to help you better. --DanielCD 19:18, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tricycle's operation simply does not rise in importance to being scrutinized by a professional-quality magazine or newspaper.  Some ad hoc operations, like Wiki, are as valid as The Bigs, like Encyclopedia Brittanica (according to a Slate article).  Just because Zen Unbound is more than a little ramshankle doesn't mean facts it presents are suspect.  At least this is so in my extremely knowledgable opinion. --Enkido 19:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Research that would be necessary is just to pull two figures from the past Form 990s:  The funds raised and the expenses of the fundraising department.  I can also show from an online article that spending no more than 35% on fundraising compared to funds raised is appropriate.  Surely, this is fact.  And I can show that the Board of Directors of the umbrella corp and management team is from the save group of folks, pretty much from inception.  While this starts to drift into 'research', it is vital information, in my estimation, to balance the record.  --Enkido 19:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I am adding this article to my watchlist and I intend to keep uncited nonsense out of the article. ---J.S  (T/C/WRE) 03:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: This page should be written not as a marketting tool of the magazine, but objectively, providing information about its beginnings and why it is often reviled for being elitist and unethical in its administration and with respect to fundraising.
This being so, those things need to be cited from respectable sources. Criticism is welcome, but please cite it accordingly. --ShadowPuppet 16:42, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can't document things "off-site", and Zen Unbound looks rather junky to me. I wouldn't accept any information from there as reliable. See this: Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Cite your sources. If there's something that's uncited, add a citation tag to it or remove it and state your reason here. --DanielCD 14:12, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Zen Unbound is a fully credible source that documents its assertions.  What is junky, presently, is this Tricycle article which uses bloviated text, verbatim, from Trike's website and advertising.  It is irresponsible and is a circumstance you are enforcing.  Shame on you. --Enkido 16:07, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: General Discussion

message: ===Circulation, Readings, Ranking Stuff===
The request for a citation of Tricycle's *claim* of 200,000 upscale readers comes from their reader survey to attract advertisers.  I would assert this is not the type of thing that belongs in an encyclopia. Citing Tricycle's claim is not difficult.-- Enkido 16:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Praise for Tricycle, Generally

message: The request for a citation of Tricycle's *claim* of 200,000 upscale readers comes from their reader survey to attract advertisers.  I would assert this is not the type of thing that belongs in an encyclopia. Citing Tricycle's claim is not difficult.-- Enkido 16:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Circulation, Readings, Ranking Stuff

message: There are very serious problems with the Tricyle operation.  These problems are a major part of the story of the magazine.  There are Forms 990 -- public documents -- which show fundraising history.  This Wikipedia article is likely to be used, unwittingly, by folks researching the magazine as a beneficiary of their generosity.  Wikipedia will be doing harm by telling a slanted and biased story of the magazine.  This article went up first as wholly self-congratulatory text borrowed from the Tricycle website.  It was a travesty.  Large patches of that original text remain.  The article as it stands today is outrageous. --Enkido 16:25, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If they are public records, then it would be fine to use them. But remember this isn't the place for original research. See: Wikipedia:No original research. You're going to have to find another reputable source that makes the same accusation (and I don't think Zenunbound.com counts, but feel free to get other opinions). --DanielCD 19:12, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm sympathetic with you as far as having the truth be told, but there has to be a public, formally-published accusation firmly cited. I'll try to find someone who might be able to help you better. --DanielCD 19:18, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tricycle's operation simply does not rise in importance to being scrutinized by a professional-quality magazine or newspaper.  Some ad hoc operations, like Wiki, are as valid as The Bigs, like Encyclopedia Brittanica (according to a Slate article).  Just because Zen Unbound is more than a little ramshankle doesn't mean facts it presents are suspect.  At least this is so in my extremely knowledgable opinion. --Enkido 19:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Research that would be necessary is just to pull two figures from the past Form 990s:  The funds raised and the expenses of the fundraising department.  I can also show from an online article that spending no more than 35% on fundraising compared to funds raised is appropriate.  Surely, this is fact.  And I can show that the Board of Directors of the umbrella corp and management team is from the save group of folks, pretty much from inception.  While this starts to drift into 'research', it is vital information, in my estimation, to balance the record.  --Enkido 19:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Problems at/with Tricycle, Generally

message: Can a Form 990 be used as a citation? It is a public document that shows a non-profits accounting for a fiscal year. Tricycle, itself, is required to provide its current Form 990 on request.  Its past 990s are vital to document fundraising history; these can be more difficult for an editor to verify.--Enkido 16:37, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If they are public records, then it would be fine to use them. But remember this isn't the place for original research. See: Wikipedia:No original research. You're going to have to find another reputable source that makes the same accusation (and I don't think Zenunbound.com counts, but feel free to get other opinions). --DanielCD 19:12, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm sympathetic with you as far as having the truth be told, but there has to be a public, formally-published accusation firmly cited. I'll try to find someone who might be able to help you better. --DanielCD 19:18, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tricycle's operation simply does not rise in importance to being scrutinized by a professional-quality magazine or newspaper.  Some ad hoc operations, like Wiki, are as valid as The Bigs, like Encyclopedia Brittanica (according to a Slate article).  Just because Zen Unbound is more than a little ramshankle doesn't mean facts it presents are suspect.  At least this is so in my extremely knowledgable opinion. --Enkido 19:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Research that would be necessary is just to pull two figures from the past Form 990s:  The funds raised and the expenses of the fundraising department.  I can also show from an online article that spending no more than 35% on fundraising compared to funds raised is appropriate.  Surely, this is fact.  And I can show that the Board of Directors of the umbrella corp and management team is from the save group of folks, pretty much from inception.  While this starts to drift into 'research', it is vital information, in my estimation, to balance the record.  --Enkido 19:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fundraising Problems

message: Does Tricycle refer to the often-seen three part yin/yang, and if so, what does it signify? Chris 17:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ''three'' part yin/yang

message: This article is something of a mess. Tom Armstrong (Enkido) is a fervent critic of Tricycle who seems to dedicate an enormous amount of time to badgering the magazine and its staff. He has been banned from their forums for trolling and is anything but a reliable source when it comes to alleged criticism of the magazine. As it is against Wikipedia policy to insert possibly defamatory material without any citation, I am removing the "Critics of the Magazine" section until someone who does not have a past history with the magazine can attempt to handle the issue from an NPOV perspective. The section contains some pretty serious allegations that are not documented, not to mention "weasel words" such as "criticised by some": who are they criticized by? I don't know what Wiki policy is regarding this, but I'm pretty sure that section violated WP:AWW, WP:UNDUE, and WP:NPOV.  If someone wants to rewrite the section, making it clear who Tricycle's critics are and what their motivations are, that's fine (although it might also violate WP:SPS, because it seems from reading the above talk page that the only source available is ZenUnbound), but right now, Wikipedia is acting as a sock puppet for one person's uncited opinions.
From WP:VERIFY: "All material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a source.
The need for citations is especially important when writing about opinions held on a particular issue. Avoid weasel words where possible, such as, "Some people say ..." Instead, make your writing verifiable: find a specific person or group who holds that opinion and give a citation to a reputable publication in which they express that opinion. Remember that Wikipedia is not a place for expressing your own opinions or for original research."
"Do not leave unsourced information in articles for too long, or at all in the case of information about living people. Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia, has said of this: "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." "
162.83.222.136 18:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am adding this article to my watchlist and I intend to keep uncited nonsense out of the article. ---J.S  (T/C/WRE) 03:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Uncited criticism

message: Why is the bulk of an entry on a magazine bashing it? Not very NPOV...Tao2911 (talk) 22:17, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  This page shows negative bias