Talk:Northern Cyprus/Archive 5

message: This article is highly biased with factual errors Aristovoul0s 21:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dont remove the tag

message: Guys, why are you in an edit war over the name TRNC?, thats a little silly. It ISNT called 'Northern Cyprus' by the world it is refered to as the TRNC. If it wasnt then we wouldnt have this article would we. Can the nationalists stop the nonsense and refer to the flag, president etc as 'TRNC'.
And BEFORE I get 4000 pages of UN legalesse sent my way I would remind people of wikipedias rules on names...the most common and usual useage gets used, look it up as Im not going to spend any more time on this sillyness. Its an article on the TRNC so lets call it the TRNC, just like the majority of the world does. Adam777 23:01, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why the edit war over the name TRNC 

message: I think this article is Turkish POV anyway, so I support the totally disputed tag. It gives too much weight to the Turkish position. Check the introduction for example:
:The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (...) is a de facto break-away state whose statehood is recognized only by Turkey.
That is POV as it implies that the TRNC is a state in the first place. The position of everyone outside Turkey is clear; the introduction should read something like TRNC is the name given by the secessionist regime set up on a militarily occupied by Turkey northern part of the Republic of Cyprus to the territory it claims to administer. There are 192 states in the UN, out of which only 1 recognizes the TRNC - that is 0,52%. How come that POV gets so much weight which is totally out of proportion to its acceptance. I must conclude it is a violation of the NPOV policy, and specifically WP:NPOV#Undue weight. How about the article's title, is that not also POV? I hadn't really seriously considered addressing this issue before as I didn't want to have to put up with the Turkish outcry which would certainly ensure, but now as we're required to discuss all issues, let's get down to business.--Tekleni 11:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How about renaming this article to Northern Cyprus, a more neutral title?--Tekleni 11:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And Republic of China to Taiwan? Forget it. --A.Garnet 12:35, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You forget it... Nagorno-Karabakh, South Ossetia, Transnistria. I see no "republic"...--Tekleni 13:26, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

text: And lets be clear here. TRNC is not a POV. Its a defacto reality on the island of Cyprus. If you fly to Larnaca, walk north, you will end up in the TRNC. It has a government, a flag and borders. No one disputes the existence of the TRNC, they only dispute its legitimacy. If we said the TRNC is legitimate, that would be a POV, but saying the TRNC exists, and writing a article on it is not POV (nor is it suggesting legitimacy). I'm sure none of what i write here will make the slightest bit of difference to you, but who knows, maybe you will see sense. --A.Garnet 12:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No it is not. All that's a de facto reality on Cyprus is the fact that the northern part is occupied by Turkey. Why not rename the article to Ta Katehomena (The Occupied [Territories]), which is what Greeks call it - the presence of foreign occupations forces is a reality, no? Northern Cyprus is about as acceptable as Egypt is - after all, their official name is The Arab Republic of Egypt.--Tekleni 13:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

text: All the articles on de facto "states" on Wikipedia do not use the full name. We have Nagorno-Karabakh, not Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, we have South Ossetia, not Republic of South Ossetia, we have Transnistria, not Trans-Dniester Moldovan Republic, etc. The only reason that the article on the republican Chinese government is at Republic of China and not China (the short form of the former) is because the China article is already taken. Taiwan, is the name of an island - it has nothing to do with anyone's perception of the claimed "statehood". Not to mention that the Taipei regime also governs on a de facto basis several other island, so "Taiwan" in itself is inaccurate.--Tekleni 13:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In any case the intro is a bit too short.. On the other hand I agree with Alf that it would only be POV if we said that TRNC was legitimate, but the simple acknowledgement of an existing physical reality is not POV. As for other articles you mentioned, I actually think the opposite, ALL of them should include their names with republic X, seriously. It could be later described in the articles if the country is legitimate or not. Anyone with an IQ of more than 70 will be able to understand if that country is recognized under international law, and why so. Baristarim 17:35, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As for Ta Katehomena.. :)) Did u know in the newspapers of Arab countries Israel is referred to as "Occupied Palestine" (in most Arab countries all the time)? In fact in some places it is illegal to state otherwise. :)) When u consider that there have been UN resolutions and many legal cases that have referred to the expulsion of Palestinians and all, that is also a legitimate way of putting it. The only difference is "argument from authority" - ie recognition by other states. In science such "argument from authority" cannot be considered as evidence, see my post 'a scientific and academic take on the issue' on PGG talk page. OTOH all those arguments can be mentioned in the article itself. TRNC is a reality (the name and the administration), however feel free to argue why it is illegitimate or against international law in the body of the article.. Baristarim 17:50, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Either that or we can just rename the page to a more neutral title (Northern Cyprus comes to mind).--Tekleni 20:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: You haven't got a clue what's going on, do you?--Tekleni 08:12, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm trying to be out of the dispute cause i'm getting bored of making the same arguments in similar articles. The major reference sources use the name Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus why not wikipedia? E104421 11:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

text: True, in the sense that, as far as international law is concerned, TRNC is considered a part of Republic of Cyprus, and that by everyone except Turkey. It is natural that Britannica follows that logic. That is not POV to state that, since it is true.. however that is not exactly relevant to the title issue coz it concerns the legal status of TRNC, which should be talked about in the intro. But let's accept that there is not a clear-cut guideline on Wiki about the naming of such 'states' (Republic of China vs. Nagorno Karabakh).. Personally I am in favor of using the full names (for all similar articles) since they are disputed territories and their 'official' names have much more significance than ordinary states (Republic of France to France), and as such all of them should have their full names and their status should be talked about in the body.. But since there is no clear guideline about these specific cases as I said, u know where that gets us?? It is up to us to slug it out case by case :))) That seems to be so for all other similar articles in any case :) Hmm.. I can see clouds in the sky :)) But I still think that any reader with an ordinary IQ will understand, by reading the intro, that TRNC is a de-facto breakaway state (or de jure part of RoC, as u wish, but the idea for an ordinary person is there) Baristarim 00:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly, a general comment (not refering especially to Baris): why the turkish users insist so much in including the word 'turkish' in articles that can stand without it, following similar other articles (e.g. in the case of TRNC), or in articles that do not have to do exclussively with the turks (e.g. 'Muslim minority of Greece') or in articles were such a name is unheard and unhistoric (e.g. 'Turkish Republic of Western Thrace'!)? if this article will be renamed into 'Northern Cyprus', it will still be for the same internationally unrecognised entity, u know... The example of the 'Republic of China' and the 'People's Rep. of China' is not a good one... Firstly, cause Taiwan was not set up by another state, not invaded (under any pretext), it spans in the same period of time with PRoChina (and for almost 3 decades was considered the "real" China), it is recognised by many more nations than TRNC, was a UN member, etc etc. TRNC falls in the category of Transnistria, Abhazia, etc. Not to mention that the formal title is pov, and adopted for wellknown reasons... u know, the official POV of the turkish government: that there is also a "Greek Republic of Southern Cyprus"... something unacceptable by the international community... Hectorian 07:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV article 

message: Just my two cents. There are POV edits on both sides occuring and as more editors with a pre-disposed opinion join the debate the possibility of reaching an agreement seems to be less and less. Issues from this disagreement are now finding their way onto other Cypriot related articles.  I suggest that the issue of the TRNC article being or not being part of the Cyprus article be taken to a formal mediation whose findings will be binding. In addition it seems like a good opportunity to sort out if we call the TRNC the TRNC or 'Occupied Cyprus' or whatever else is the term du jour. Any thoughts people? Adam777 17:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are these "editors with pre-disposed opinions" supposed to exclude you? :-) Actually it is the disputing side that will have to do that, and it probably will. Finally, you skipped one step in dispute resolution. •NikoSilver• 22:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope..I have pulled back from editing as per dispute guidelines:-) - a new admin shouldnt need to be reminded to assume good faith. As far as I can see the issue has followed all the relevant guidelines, including an informal mediation which preceeded the last edit war. The findings of the mediation were ignored by one of the parties so I disengaged and offered a formal mediation (on the subject of the name of the TRNC). Lets be 100% honest here, the opposing viewpoints have dug in and little short of a formal mediation arbitration is going to resolve issues. Adam777 13:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That would skip two steps in dispute resolution. I am anxious we start climbing that ladder too, but I would suggest you allow the initiative to the side which actually disputes something against the present status quo. •NikoSilver• 15:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well I would disagree its two steps but I can see why you would say that. Anywhoo I dont actually have an issue with the staus quo. When Aristovouls and I were in one of our usual disagreements I did suggest arbitration (after a failed infomal mediation) but that was on a slightly different (but still relevant) issue. If the people that want to move the article under cyprus wish to go that route then IMHO thats the better option. As the edit wars are tiresome and dont lead to any concensus. IMO this article has already gone to an informal mediation on the subject of the name of the TRNC, however that centered more on the de facto status than the actual name (though the name was a part of the mediation). So I am of the opinion that the process start AFTER the informal mediation stage - but that if of course just my opinion. Oh and congrats on the admin status. Adam777 15:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

text:  I thought you'd just got admin status....I guess it was somebody else. Adam777 14:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Darn! I should have let you still think that to gain respect!! :-) •NikoSilver• 14:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formal <strike>Mediation</strike> Arbitration may be a good idea 

message: *There are many articles in Wikipedia that do not have any correspondence in any encylopedia. The content of Wikipedia should not be restricted to Britannica or Columbia content. Wikipedia is not bound by the same constraints as a paper encyclopedia or even most online encyclopedias. For this reason, there is no reason to exclude "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" from Wikipedia. Even in Britannica and Columbia, the name "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" is used to label the Turkish state. E104421 22:18, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not ready to respond to that yet, FP. We're just discussing to see where that leads. Adam777 proposed mediation on something he didn't define. I'll work on it, discuss, and through that discussion, a proposal may emerge. Given the 3 academic sources above, I think there is a lot to talk about the present state of affairs in this article. Your contribution in this discussion will be highly appreciated. •NikoSilver• 10:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  On something I didnt define? Please re-read my entry where it said 'I suggest that the issue of the TRNC article being part of the cyprus article be taken to a formal mediation'. I believe that is very clear and defined. Adam777 13:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you may have misunderstood what mediation actually is. They don't listen to both sides and then enforce what seems most reasonable to them. That is the impression you gave me - especially when you used the word "binding".--Tekleni 13:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

text:  My apologies I am using the term mediation where I mean arbitration. Adam777 13:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

text:  I dont read the arbitration guidelines as saying that. So when they say they expect people to adhere to their decision they arent talking about content issues? Adam777 15:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia is not a paper encylopedia

message: *Please note that the North Cyprus form at cyprus-forum.org has been moved to http://www.totallyproperty.com/cyprus-property/ can someone please update this link as my edit is being reverted every time I try. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.190.114 (talk • contribs) 
:The link has been removed as spam per our external link guideline. Aecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 13:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cyprus-forum.org

message: I seriously doubt whether the Greek Name for the "TRNC" recently added to the articles intro is relevant. Greek does not have any legal status in the TRNC, adding a Greek name for it makes it look like Greek is an official language of the TRNC or similar. And I doubt whether any Greek would actually refer to Northern Cyprus as the "TRNC", I think it is more likely that this Greek name was created by the Turkish authorities of the TRNC, wishing it was used.Globo 04:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek name for TRNC? 

message: I appreciate the willingness to be bold, but I don't recall there being any consensus to remove the infobox and revamp the intro like that. Let's try to work collaboratively instead. Khoikhoi 18:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe you can also propose to remove the infobox here, and then we can decide on it... Khoikhoi 18:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Not really. You removed the dispute tag (added by Aristovoul0s) without any explanation, and added scare quotes around TRNC, President, etc.--which you know are POV. Also you added the UN info in the intro, which is something that caused a great deal of debate here, and isn't agreed upon by all editors. Besides that, I am happy. Khoikhoi 19:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I'll readd the tag. On the scare quotes issue, you always say that is POV but I don't see how. As for the UN info., where has it been discussed? Even so, it's censorship to remove it.--Tekleni 19:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's like saying "Operation Iraqi Freedom". From my perspective it makes sense to have the scare quotes because I know the war has caused so much terror and destruction. However, from my government's perspective it is a valid, legitimate term. That's why it's POV. As for the UN info, see Archive 4. It's not really censorship because I wasn't planning to erase it entirely, I just don't think it's appropriate for the intro. Perhaps some other part of the article. Khoikhoi 23:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: I just started to read though the article, as I do with multiple articles on occasion as many times edits will leave an article with less than desirable grammar.
People...try reading the first SENTENCE of the 'Background' section. That has to be one of the longest sentences known to man. However Im sure that any edits I make will be reverted and fourty instances of the word 'ILLEGAL' added as well as a good thousand words of UN babble.
So Im going to post my changes here and you can spit acid at them from afar, that way the article doesnt see-saw back and forth.
My edits are meant to make that paragraph easier to read, conform to certain basic English grammar and add clarity where it is lacking.
It currently reads.....
The TRNC was unilaterally proclaimed in 1983, nine years after the Greek Cypriot coup d'etat that was carried out by supporters of EOKA-B with backing from the Greek military junta of 1967-1974, and the ensuing Turkish invasion of Cyprus, which established the new de facto entity on Cyprus as a dependency of Turkey and whose military maintain a strong presence in the TRNC to this day.
I propose....
The TRNC was unilaterally established in 1983 nine years after a Greek Cypriot Coup d’etat. The short lived Coup was carried out by supporters of EOKA-B with backing from the ruling Greek military Junta which controlled Greece from 1967 to 1974. The ensuing Turkish invasion of Cyprus established a new de facto political entity in Cyprus which is a dependency of Turkey. The Turkish military maintain a strong presence in the TRNC to this day.
 
Right then.... 'Short lived' becuase the coup only lasted a few days. A casual reader would infer the coup lasted indefinately.
'ruling Military Junta'.... a lot of people wouldnt be aware what a JUnta is so a little clarification is added.
'from 1967 to 1974'.... removed the '-' that doesnt belong in an written piece.
'The ensuing.... to show the timeline
'de facto political entity'.... a 'de facto' entity could be anything, a 'de facto political entity' shows what was established
Not everybody is as familiar with the details of Cyprus as those that post here (and we could argue about those people as well but thats besides the point), therefore some clarification is needed. Frankly it reads very poorly at the moment. Adam777 18:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact is that TRNC is an illegal and invalid political entity, as confirmed by UN. TRNC is no different than Afghanistan was under Taliban. We should state the truth and not try to sugarcoat it. Khorshid 00:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then we should do the same for all unrecognized country articles. Why make an exception for the TRNC? And who says the UN is the sole factor in determining an entities' status? Khoikhoi 00:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because only ONE country (Turkey) recognises this thing. Turkey is also guilty of atrocities against the Greek Cypriot populations, similar to Taliban atrocity against non-Pashtuns. And I agree for all unrecognised countries that are in similar situations we should coolly state the facts. Khorshid 00:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And the Greeks didn't commit atrocities against the Turks? And what does that even have to do with the status of the TRNC? Khoikhoi 00:29, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever atrocity Greeks commit has no showing on the legitimacy of Republic of Cyprus just as Serbian atrocity against Bosnians has no bearing on legitimacy of Serbia. But TRNC is illegimate, condemned by UN and not recognised by any country except Turkey. That says alot dont you think??? Khorshid 00:35, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we are going to discuss atrocities, let's discuss the Turkish atrocities (and let's focus on the scale, please let's focus on the scale). Greece was not convicted by the European Court of Human Rights for her conduct on Cyprus, Turkey was (see Loizidou v Turkey). This tells us a lot...--Euthymios 00:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not going to waste my time talking with a bunch of anti-TRNCers. Khoikhoi 00:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats not nice. Please assume good faith. Please see WP:V - my points are 100% valid and conform to WP guidelines and policy. Khorshid 00:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not going to bother assuming good faith with someone that wants to say the TRNC is illegal in the intro. Khoikhoi 00:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Khoi, and I'm not going to waste my time talking to a pro-TRNC, UN-defiant, world-defiant and 'the will of the indigenous inhabitants of northern Cyprus (most of them favor dissolution of the "TRNC")'-defiant-er ;-) --Euthymios 00:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You forgot "anti-Romanian". Khoikhoi 00:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

text: *Who is "we"? Khoikhoi 00:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Rumlar (they/we have been doing it for over two decades).--Euthymios 00:57, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Do these Rumlar get the final call in what the lead is going to be? Khoikhoi 00:58, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Not on Wikipedia, but per WP:NPOV they do get a say in what goes on. Something *you* seem to be trying to deny them. From that policy also follows that you don't get the final say either (in case you didn't know).--Euthymios 01:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Speaking of denial, you can say that the TRNC doesn't exist, but as soon as you walk north and get stopped at the border, do you wonder why? Khoikhoi 01:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Military occupation of part of a pre-existing sovereign state. I don't get it though - if I want to walk into the Pentagon I also get stopped. No one is addressing the issue of it's existence - I am advocating giving proportionate weight to the worldwide (save Turkey) view on the subject.--Euthymios 01:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *The Pentagon never declared itself independent. Khoikhoi 01:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Nor was it militarily occupied by Turkey.--Euthymios 01:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

text: *Anyway, you're evading the issue - why should Wikipedia not give proportionate weight to the worldwide (save Turkey) view on the subject?--Euthymios 01:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Well, compare the TRNC intro to what we have in other articles about unrecognized states (or "separatist regimes", as you call them). Khoikhoi 01:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *What about them?--Euthymios 01:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *South Ossetia doesn't only have the Georgian POV in the intro. Khoikhoi 01:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *If you really wanna compare with South Ossetia, see below.--Euthymios 08:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  It read some good yes