Talk:Gospel of the Twelve

message: Hi Ovadyah
Good idea to clean up here. 
Wikipedia already suffers from overpopulation of badly sourced articles on NTA, some of them on texts which don't exist, so I personally would suggest that since there is not much actual TEXT of value under this heading that just one article "Gospels of the Apostles" collecting redirects from Gospel of the Twelve, Gospel of the Apostles, Gospel of the Twelve, etc. covers all of those mentioned p374 onwards of Schneemelcher Vol.2 I'd also suggest that everyone involved in editing this page read p374 onwards before making any edits. :)
As to structure I'd guess.
1. Patristic references - quotes of Jerome, Justin, Origen, mentions of "Gospel of Apostles" in banned books lists.
2. Then subsections about every "Gospel of the Apostles" per Schneemelcher NTA2, even that of the 12thC manuscript found by James Rendel Harris etc. Whether the article needs any references at all to marginal 19thC writers like Sabine Baring Gould is questionable.In ictu oculi (talk) 19:05, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I was concerned about creating a content fork that would just lead to more problems later.  I suggest the text be organized in three different sections, according to the quotes from the three Church Fathers you mentioned.  The situation is somewhat analogous to the three Jewish Christian Gospels that can't be separated from the Church Fathers who quote from them.  Rather than create a new "Gospels of Apostles" stub we should probably just leave it as is with redirects for the other two texts.  Ovadyah (talk) 20:20, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

text: I also agree that "Whether the article needs any references at all to marginal 19thC writers like Sabine Baring Gould is questionable".  We have much better and more recent reliable sources on which to base the article content.  Ovadyah (talk) 21:21, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

text: Ok, I created a general structure with three sections.  There is a lot of content in the article that suggests there are three interchangeable names for the same text.  All of this needs to be cleaned up.  Ovadyah (talk) 20:53, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Replies 

message: :
:The term Nazarene was first applied to Jesus of Nazareth (Matthew 2:23). Paul was called a Nazarene by Tertullus in Acts. Thereafter the name does not appear again until the 4th Century when used of a Jewish Christian Group by Epiphanius.Schneemelcher NTA Vol.1 Philip Vielhauer, introduction to Gospel of the NazarenesF.L. Cross & E.A. Livingston, The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, Oxford University Press, 1989. p 957 & 722. The 4thC Nazarenes adhered to the Mosaic law.The Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 4. New York, NY : Doubleday, 1992. p. 1049-1052
:Sabine Baring-Gould was one of those who considered that The Gospel of the Apostles, or The Gospel of the Twelve  was used by the Nazarenes sinece Jerome (Dial. adv. Pelag. III 2) appears to say that "the Gospel used by the Nazarenes is called the Gospel of the Apostles". That the same Gospel should bear two names, one according to its reputed authors, the other according to the community which used it, is not surprising.Sabine Baring-Gould, The Lost And Hostile Gospels, 1874; Print on demand Nabu Press, undated. p 122
I decided to WP:be bold and move the Nazoraeans content to the talk page.  The first paragraph is a history of the name Nazarenes from Jesus to the 4th century.  Why is that relevant to an article on the Gospel of the Apostles?  The second paragraph details what Sabine Baring-Gould thought about the Gospel in 1874.  Unless there is some specific historical interest in her, why do we care?  Is there anything here worth keeping?  If there is, I'm not seeing it.  Ovadyah (talk) 00:12, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sabine Baring-Gould was a he :), but no, not remotely relevant.In ictu oculi (talk) 02:28, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops! Pardon my (lack of) French! :0)  Ovadyah (talk) 17:24, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nazoraeans 

message: :This use of apomnemoneumata "memoirs" has led some writers to think that Justin may have been referring to a different book, such as Origen's Gospel of the Twelve under a slightly different name, The Recollections of the Apostles. 
:He says that these Recollections were a Gospel. He adopted the word used by Xenophon for his recollections of Socrates. The Memorabilia of Xenophon concerned the martyred philosopher, while the Memorabilia of the Apostles  concerned the martyred Redeemer. It is probable that this Hebrew Gospel of the Twelve was the only one with which Justin Martyr was acquainted.
:<-------FICTION
:Justin Martyr was a native of Samaria, and his acquaintance with Christianity was probably made in the communities of Nazarenes scattered over Syria. By family he was a Greek, and was therefore by blood inclined to sympathize with the Gentile rather than the Jewish Christians. This double tendency is manifest in his writings.
:Justin Martyr's Christian training took place in the Nazarene Church, in the orthodox, milder section. He no doubt inherited the traditional prejudice against St. Paul, for he neither mentions him by name, nor quotes any of his writings. That he should have omitted to quote St. Paul in his Dialogue with Trypho the Jew is not surprising; but had he seen the Epistles of the Apostle of the Gentiles, he would have cited them, or shown that they had influenced the current of his thoughts in his two Apologies addressed to Gentiles. Therefore the Gospel of the Twelve may predate Paul.Sabine Baring-Gould, The Lost And Hostile Gospels, 1876 reprint Nabu Press, 2010. p  123 - 128
:DOES SABINE BARING GOULD REALLY CLAIM THIS?---->
This unsourced content is either unsupported by scholarship or demonstrably false.  It appears to be little more than OR.  Previous scholarship has not demonstrated a connection between the Memoirs of the Apostles and the so-called Gospel of the Twelve (Gospel of the Epigrams of the Twelve).  Also, Xenophon's "recollections" of Socrates was not given the title Memoirs of Xenophon until the middle ages.  Several scholars have noted a complete lack of support for the use of this name in ancient times.  Finally, the bit about it being "probable" that Justin Martyr was only acquainted with a Hebrew Gospel of the Twelve is OR.  Justin's use of the LXX for scriptural quotations makes it clear that he was reliant on Hellenistic Judaism.  I won't even comment on the section that was lined out and rightly labeled as fiction.  Ovadyah (talk) 16:31, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In his dialogue with Trypho Justin frequently refers to the Gospel story by the neutral apomnemoneumata "memoirs" of the Apostles, avoiding the loaded term evangelion, "Good News".Vernon Kay Robbins Jesus the teacher: a socio-rhetorical interpretation of Mark 1984 "80 In the Dialogue with Trypho, Justin, in spite of frequent reference to the Apomnemoneumata of the Apostles, never once calls them gospels. He uses the term euaggelion twice in the dialogue.David Aune The New Testament in its literary environment p67 "described the Gospels as "reminiscences [apomnemoneumata] of the apostles" (1 Apology 66.3; 67.3) and "reminiscences of Peter" (Dialogue with Trypho 106.3). Thus Justin, like Matthew, Luke, and Papias, prefers to designate the... "
I copied the remaining text for the Memoirs of the Apostles section, which is inaccurate, but at least it is sourced.  The sentence claims that Justin avoided the use of the term evangelion because he regarded it to be a "loaded term".  In fact, Justin uses the terms euaggelion and apomnemoneumata in the same sentence in 1 Apology 66.3, where he makes it clear that they are equivalent terms and he is referring to "gospels" in the plural.
I will fix up the remaining content for now, so that what is said is at least accurate.  Ovadyah (talk) 17:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

text: name="Aune 1987 p.67"  p.67 - "described the Gospels as 'reminiscences [apomnemoneumata] of the apostles' (1 Apology 66.3; 67.3) and "reminiscences of Peter" (Dialogue with Trypho 106.3). Thus Justin, like Matthew, Luke, and Papias, prefers to designate the... "
Move Aune ref for now while section is being reorganized. Ovadyah (talk) 16:51, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Memoirs of the Apostles 

message: Walter Richard Cassels (1874) and Pierson Parker (1940) considered it a different "edition" of Gospel of the Hebrews.
Moved unsourced statement to Talk.  This is a duplicate of a sourced statement in the section on Jerome. Ovadyah (talk) 16:53, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gospel of the Twelve 

message: Justin Martyr quotes "the book that is called the Gospel" as if there were but one. It has been frequently observed that the quotations of Justin are closer to the parallel passages in the Gospel of the Hebrews than to other gospels. But the only Gospel he names is the Gospel of the Twelve. 
I moved these two unsourced statements to Talk.  They are not only inaccurate; they are completely false.  It has been frequently observed that the quotations of Justin are closer to the parallel passages in Matthew and Luke.  The evidence based on narrative accounts of the life of Jesus and the sayings of Jesus is overwhelming.  And it is an OR statement to say the only Gospel Justin names is the Gospel of the Twelve.  Justin uses the term gospel or gospels three times, and he never uses it with specificity as to the author or authors, other than the single case where he mentions the "memoirs of the Apostles" and "gospels" in the same sentence.  Ovadyah (talk) 17:08, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gospel of the Apostles 

message: I finally have Koester's book on Ancient Gospels and Sarskaune's book on Justin Martyr, so I will resume working on this shortly.  Koester gives a fascinating review of the usage of the word apomnemoneumata, which is more accurately translated as "recollections" or "rememberances" than "memoirs".  It has a special meaning that indicates the trustworthy recollection of the sayings of Jesus by the Apostles, and it was apparently first used in this sense by Papias with respect to Mark's accurate recording of the recollections of Peter.  According to Koester, it has nothing to do with the original meaning of the word euaggelion (gospel), which was used by Paul, Mark, and Ignatius to indicate the "good news" of  the death, resurrection, and second-coming of Christ.  Ovadyah (talk) 16:50, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: I removed this content to the talk page for discussion:
:In regard to the "Memoirs of the Apostles," which are referred to some fifteen or twenty times by Justin, as the source of many of his quotations, Arthur Lillie (1882) and Waite Burlingame (1881) contends that Justin meant the Gospel of the Hebrews, as the Gospel of the Hebrews was also known as The Gospel of the Twelve Apostles. This was The Memoirs of the Apostles, referred to by Justin Martyr.Arthur Lillie, Buddha and early Buddhism 1882 extract The Gospel According to the Hebrews, Kessinger Publishing,  2005.  pp 111–134Waite Burlingame, History of the Christian Religion, to the Year Two Hundred, 1881 reprint BiblioBazaarPub, 2009. p 278
This is junk pseudo-scholarship backed by 100-plus year old sources.  At best, it might be of minor interest as a historical perspective.  It is certainly not a consensus of modern scholars.  Ignocrates (talk) 04:41, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I will take a fresh look at this as soon as I can locate the references I had collected.  Cheers. Ignocrates (talk) 22:17, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

text: Scholars Cassels (1874) and Parker (1940) considered the Gospel of the Apostles mentioned by Jerome and Ambrose to be a different "edition" of the Gospel of the Hebrews.Walter Richard Cassels, Supernatural Religion - An Inquiry Into the Reality of Divine Revelation,  1874 reprint Read Books, 2010.   Vol. 1,  p 419- 422Pierson Parker, A Proto-Lukan Basis for the Gospel According to the Hebrews,  Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 59, No. 4, 1940.  pp 471
I removed the rest of the junk content.  Schneemelcher states that Jerome was incorrect in identifying the Gospel of the Twelve with the Gospel of the Hebrews, since Origen clearly distinguishes between the two gospels in his list of heretical gospels.  Therefore, there was no need for a separate section describing Jerome's mistake.  I also stripped out the rest of the dubious references.  The article is now a tiny stub, but there is nothing more to say on the subject.  I question whether this should remain a stand-alone article, as opposed to being incorporated into a list of unknown gospels with a brief description. Ignocrates (talk) 01:54, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Back to cleanup