Talk:Pocket PC

message: (Q) Help me out: is "Pocket PC" the genre or type of handheld, and Windows CE the operationg system, or what?
(A)Pocket PC is a PDA specification developed by Microsoft; it is also a Microsoft trademark.  If a device is referred to as a Pocket PC, that simply indicates that it has been certified by microsoft as meeting certain hardware and software standards.
Part of the specification is the standard software package that is installed on the device, called "Windows Mobile for Pocket PC." This software package runs on top of the Windows CE OS.
Yo, dude! I thought my ViewSonic Pocket PC was running Windows CE 2002. I am on drugs, or what? -- Surfer Dude
Your ViewSonic Pocket PC is running Windows CE, but it is also loaded with additional software specified by Microsoft.  This software, in conjunction with the Windows CE OS, forms the Pocket PC system.
"PocketPC" is just a fork of sorts from Windows CE. So any Windows CE code can be easily ported to PocketPC with just the correct SDK installed in your DE.
You know, that phrase sounds weird to me, like "Windows XP is a set of software that runs ontop of Windows operationg system", IMHO it's not, the operating system is defined by basic software packages too, not just the kernel or whatever it has to handle executions of those software. Gnomz007 00:00, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition

message: The article currently says  A $100–$200 model is rumored to be released within 2004 or early 2005.. Please can someone with the necessary knowledge, update it? Thank you. Andy Mabbett 13:44, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Update needed

message: If anyone working on this page can fill out the Pocket PC columns on Mobile development, that would be a huge help - someone added the column, but didn't know any details.  Thanks! 24.7.66.15 20:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requesting - Application development for [[Mobile development]] 

message: You are more than welcome to add your own details on your own product (which you decided to remove) but do not remove others contributions. Timeshift 06:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please do not remove contributions 

message: Guys, can you tell me what's the best handheld for value. The handheld needs t have WiFi though.  Demonblade   (talk)  06:21, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Best Handheld

message: Firstly the last paragraph recently added is POV in parts, second there is no evidence I am aware of to suggest that the market has "abandoned" them, as most people are still purchasing GPS add-ons which allows for best positioning and view to pick up satellites better, and the choice of GPS add-on also allows for choice of GPS specs instead of being stuck with the often sub-standard sensitivity of built-in GPS devices. Timeshift 04:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputed

message: Those are mostly irrelevant details, the matter is that the market trends are clear by now. On the GPS details you are mentioning, I would say that because of their high sensitivity, for example the SiRF Star III based GPS receivers are designed to work very well inside of a car. There is a list of dissadavantages of GPS add-ons; neither Garmin, Brunton nor Magellan GPS devices are usually sold in pieces.
Market Trends are showing decline in demand for pure pocket PC devices. I can provide evidence for that, if you do not know much about. I can also provide evidence that converged devices have better demand than pure pocket PC's.
At least five recently launched devices from different brands have an integrated GPS. On the other side, it's important to notice that Toshiba and Viewsonic have abandoned the pocket PC market. Sony has abandoned the palm compatible market too. Palm and HP have clearly their focus on communicators. So does HTC, the manufacturer of the Dell X51v.
HP and Dell still sell pure pocket PC devices, but their "new" devices, are basically renamed last year products with little more ROM and Microsoft Windows Mobile 5 OS. There is very small difference between the Dell X50 and X51 series. And it's exactly the same with the HP iPAQ hx2000 series devices. The VGA 4" TFT hx4700 model was abandoned. Something that one could call new on the pure pocket pc market could be perhaps the Acer n300, and only because it combines entry level price with an VGA 3.7" TFT screen.
:Please provide evidence that the market has abandoned PocketPC devices with external GPS devices as opposed to PocketPCs with in-built GPS. Also please ensure you sign your talk contributions with four tildes so the following occurs: Timeshift 10:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe it's my eyes this late at night but I cannot see any evidence to show that market demand for PocketPC with non-integrated GPS is in decline in comparison to PocketPC with integrated GPS. Timeshift 12:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As you are unable to show that PocketPC with non integrated GPS sales are in decline in comparison to PocketPC with integrated GPS, I am removing your incorrect claims and will request a block to be put on you if you continue to revert your incorrect contribution without providing evidence to the contrary. Timeshift 13:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Nothing there refers to GPS on it's own. The x51v has BT and Wi-Fi. On top of the fact it does not refer to GPS on it's own, it does not say or even infer that the non-integrated GPS PocketPC market is declining in comparison to the integreated GPS PocketPC market. Timeshift 13:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Market Trends

message: Why are you vandalizing my contributions? I have proved that you are wrong, and found sound backup for anything I said. I didn't touch the crazy things you have composed.
:Nowhere does it show that the non-integrated GPS PocketPC market is declining in comparison to the integreated GPS PocketPC market. Nowhere. You cannot point me to any quote which shows this to be the case. Timeshift 14:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And by all means, please tell me ONE crazy thing I have composed, and why that is the case. Put simply, you cannot :-) Timeshift 14:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Circumstantial evidence? HAHA. Yeah right. I'll repeat again. Nowhere does it show that the non-integrated GPS PocketPC market is declining in comparison to the integreated GPS PocketPC market. Nowhere. And again, please tell me ONE crazy thing I have composed, and why that is the case. Put simply, you cannot. It is obvious you are trying to discredit me from that accusation and also stooping so low as to ask me my age in pre-empting that I am a child. (btw look at your contribution - shocking spelling and grammar) I am not, perhaps you care to look at my contributions, especially election articles. I will continue reverting and will also see about getting a block put on you for your continual POV and incorrect assertion reverts. Timeshift 14:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Saying it doesn't make it true. I'll repeat again. Nowhere does it show that the non-integrated GPS PocketPC market is declining in comparison to the integreated GPS PocketPC market. Nowhere. Reverting due to continual POV and incorrect assertion reverts. Timeshift 15:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I have more than proved that you are wrong

message: I wanted to write some things, but the simpleton started to bother with his wide array of pretexts, all without a reason. And it's not the first time that happens. He's not even able to follow his own rules.
:And I have let you keep most of the things you have written, apart from the following - I'll repeat again. Nowhere does it show that the non-integrated GPS PocketPC market is declining in comparison to the integreated GPS PocketPC market. Nowhere. Reverting due to continual POV and incorrect assertion reverts. Timeshift 15:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yet you continue to be unable to provide a quote where it shows that the non-integrated GPS PocketPC market is declining in comparison to the integreated GPS PocketPC market. Providing a link is not sufficient. Provide a link, with a quote to back up your incorrect assertions. You have consistently been unable to do this and only serves to degrade your position. Timeshift 16:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Yet you continue to be unable to provide a quote where it shows that the non-integrated GPS PocketPC market is declining in comparison to the integreated GPS PocketPC market. Providing a link is not sufficient. Provide a link, with a quote to back up your incorrect assertions. You have consistently been unable to do this and only serves to degrade your position. Timeshift 04:05, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: circumstantial evidence does not equal evidence. See WP:Reliable sources. HighInBC 17:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

text: The X51v has a 624mhz processor and 16mb of dedicated video memory via an Intel 2700G accellerator. Do the devices you mention come with dedicated graphics, placing less demand on the CPU therefore freeing it up for other tasks? Look at the benchmarks. I will keep reverting, and I am a dedicated wikipedian, so your struggle is futile. BTW I am yet to find one person agreeing with your position. Timeshift 18:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I didn't say most advanced. I said most powerful - in terms of raw power. None of what you mentioned contributes to raw power. I am sick of having to explain myself, so from now on unless anyone brings up anything useful, I will not continue this discussion here and will continue to revert. Timeshift 18:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

text: POV is not allowed in articles. POV is allowed in discussion. If you cannot even follow wikipedia convention, then I suggest you learn. Timeshift 18:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Why is this conflictive "person" allowed to act that way?

message: This is a disagreement over which of the two versions represented in this diff should be in the article.
User:Igor Sotelo, sometimes editing as IP 201.240.254.170 wants the article to say that "the market tendencies have already shifted, from classic pocket PC devices like the X51v, to Smartphones, newer Pocket PC's that integrate GPS or are based on the Windows Mobile Phone Edition."  He has provided various bits of evidence for his assertion.  At first these seemed like Original Research, but subsequent references seemed stronger.  He claims he can provide more research if needed, but fears it will be ignored and discounted.
User:Timeshift9 wants the article to say, "Some Pocket PC's integrate a GPS that can be based on the Windows Mobile Phone Edition," effectively eliminating all reference to market tendancies and sales.  He asks Igor Sotelo to provide references for his assertions, and has refuted most of those references as original research.  More recently however, he has questioned the usefulness of a reference by saying that a PDA and a Pocket PC are not the same thing, and a reference saying PDA sales have declined cannot be applied to Pocket PCs.
===References supplied by Igor Sotelo and refutations supplied by Timeshift===
1. "Can be seen the demand for Pocket PC's, excluding Smartphones Global handhelds market in Q2 2006 "Q2 2006 saw the worldwide handheld devices market experience its tenth consecutive quarter of YTY decline" Source: IDC"
2. "Gives an general idea of the demand for GPS integrated devices Portable GPS navigation market statistics YTY Rise by 96% Source: IDC"
:Refutation: "I cannot see any evidence to show that market demand for PocketPC with non-integrated GPS is in decline in comparison to PocketPC with integrated GPS."
3. "Interpetation of the IDC Analyst [Worldwide Handheld Market Experiences Tenth Quarter of Year-Over-Year Decline, According to IDC] "The inclusion of Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, and GPS have kept handheld devices relevant, particularly for core users." Source: IDC"
:Refutation: "Nothing there refers to GPS on it's own ... it does not say or even infer that the non-integrated GPS PocketPC market is declining in comparison to the integreated GPS PocketPC market."
4. "Another 2005 Market Report - This was in 2005, in 2006 the advantage is clear for GPS integraded PDAs. "In the meantime PDAs and other devices, known in marketing terms as 'unconnected handhelds', declined worldwide, although there was some growth in the EU, driven by the demand for PDAs with integrated GPS navigation. In the second quarter of 2005 almost half the number of PDAs sold had GPS included." 
Mobile and PDA Technologies: Looking Around the Corner 
Source: Canalys and JISC"
:Refutation: "A PDA is not a PocketPC. A PDA is a personal digital assistant. A PDA can be a palm, a PocketPC, a blackberry, pretty much any device that holds information electronically in a small form factor. Secondly, unconnected handhelds, as I have already said, is a sweeping generalisation that refers to more than GPS - such as wi-fi and bluetooth. Thirdly, the quote says that whilst PDAs sales (which again is not just PocketPC, and also mentioned unconnected, ie: refers to lack of BT and wi-fi) declined worldwide, there was PDA with integrated GPS growth in the EU. It does not state what Igor claims - he has taken selective quotes and made sweeping and incorrect generalisations."
5. :Gartner Market Analysis Q1 2006 
Gartner PDA Report for Q1 2006 
"Mio Technology has taken the lead in PDAs with integrated GPS capabilities and is faring especially well" 
"The bulk of Dell's sales were its flagship model X51v" 
1Q05- 1Q06 Growth (%) Mio Technology +81.2 
1Q05- 1Q06 Growth (%) Dell -34.0 
Source: Gartnet Report transcribed by Palm Infocenter.
Gartner defines the PDA's somewhat different than IDS. Gartner is well known independent market research company.
:Refutation: You still don't understand the concept of circumstantial evidence do you?
===Additional issues===
Here are some excerpts from conversations not on this talk page:
"What would change if I provide, let's say another 5-6 links to support my point? It's not complicate to find additional evidence. It can be done with google. And it's only part true that PDA's are not Pocket PC's, because the majority are. I already found onther quote from IDC researcher that refers to only GPS (without mentioning BT and Wireless) and it's from the same person." (Igor Sotelo - excerpt from e-mail conversation with ONUnicorn)
"Note that he was reverting my edits after only minutes. When I first published the information, I was quite surprised, because it took him less than 2 minutes to put a discuss icon and start a bothering discussion on the pocket PC talk page. After I posted the "evidence" he asked for, it took him an extremely short time to say no and "reaccomodate" the article. And in his reaccomodation he deleted the reference I had put about smartphones and communicators too." (Igor Sotelo - excerpt from e-mail conversation with ONUnicorn)
"...a Pocket PC is a type of PDA. As common sense, market research or legal issues wouldn't follow the same logic of a programmer, where equal means that the comparative has to be 100% accurate. Not a single piece of information that he has provided would sustain the same rigour he has applied to the part of the sentence I have put." (Igor Sotelo - excerpt from e-mail conversation with ONUnicorn)
"We have exhausted all forms of communication as far as I can see. I have repeated myself many times and find myself getting nowhere. I am at a loss for what else to say to him. I can barely get an understandable response out of him as it is." (Timeshift - from ONUnicorn's talk page)
===RFC Responses===
86.135.232.131's edits to the article are excellent and IMHO resolves any further dispute. Timeshift 20:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Comment:Decline in sales

message: 86.135.232.131's edits to the article are excellent and IMHO resolves any further dispute. Timeshift 20:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC Responses

message: Hello,
why did you remove link to Handster.com?
It is independent Pocket PC software portal, while you keep links to resellers of other portals? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Victor sh (talk • contribs) 13:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know this is old, but I just wanted to respond as to why I believe this link was removed for future reference.  Those who are unclear about this should read Wikipedia's guide to external links.  The number one problem with this site is that it falls under the category: "Links to sites that primarily exist to sell products or services." Brianreading 18:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  why did you remove our link? 

message: Hi, to me it seems that the vast majority of the links are just spamlinks (no encyclopedic value, too much advertising, blogs, forums ...). I did a cleanup following Wikipedia:Spam Matteo 14:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spamlinks 

message: "Pocket PC" is not a Microsoft trademark — whatever the existing reference (Pocket Presence AB) claims, Microsoft's own trademark list does not list it (nor anything with "pocket" or "pc"). I'm removing that reference, but does anyone know who (if anyone) does have the trademark? -- Perey 02:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pocket PC may not be owned by Microsoft, but it's unofficially theirs.  --Ben414 18:08, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The use of the term "trademark" is not regulated in the US; anybody can call something their "trademark". It may not be an officially registered trademark, however. — Wenli (reply here) 03:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Pocket PC is a registered trademark held by the publishers of  the former Pocket PC magazine, now named Smartphone & Pocket PC magazine. I love these gadgets. TimidGuy (talk) 11:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not a Microsoft trademark 

message: I have a PPC, and do check out the stores here in Milwaukee for them.   I dunno if it's 'cuz we're we're smaller, but I don't see them in stores lately.  Palm, yes, PPC, no.  I was in Chicago recently, and don't think I saw any there either. --Ben414 18:08, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Obsolescence coming?

message: I renamed the "Versions" section to "Operating System Versions" to make more sense.  This section specifically talks about operating system versions officially released by Microsoft, and not about versions of Pocket PC hardware.  It should be noted that this article should be mainly about the hardware device, and not the operating system, as we already have a Windows Mobile article that is suited to fill that role better.  Therefore, I put a link to the Windows Mobile article as the main article for this section as well.  Brianreading 18:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Versions Section

message: This file belongs to HTC and can be found here http://www.htc.com/www/product/tytnii/overview.html
If the person who uploaded this file truly does have any authorization to do so he or she should provide some sort of proof.Everett3 (talk) 20:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  File:Modern_Pocket_PC.png 

message: I edited a sentence in the main header which read (referring to the Pocket PC): "...It has many of the capabilities of modern desktop PCs." In the place of "Many" I have inserted "Some." So, it now reads "It has some of the capabilities of a modern desktop PC."
Anyone who has ever used a Pocket PC knows that a Desktop PC and a Pocket PC are not the same thing, and the two do not share "Many" of the same features. For instance, no PocketPC I've ever seen has a mouse cursor (never mind having a mouse) unless you add one on with third-party software, and that's just one example. I could go on and on. In short, a Pocket PC simply does not have "Many" of the same features that a desktop PC does; That much should be obvious to anyone who's ever used one.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Allthenamesarealreadytaken (talk • contribs) 00:15, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Header: "Many" vs. "Some" 

message: Should this article be merged with Windows Mobile? If not, my suggestion would be to move all the old Pocket PC information out of the Windows Mobile article, and into this one, and replace it with a link that says something like "For earlier versions of the OS, see Pocket PC". So either define a split, and have separate information in each article, or delete this one.--Lester 07:28, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the suggestions. Both are good. Maybe do the latter. Windows Mobile has gone so far beyond Pocket PC and now has such a different identity, that it seems like all the Pocket PC info could be moved from that article into this one, per WP:SUMMARY. TimidGuy (talk) 09:50, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should this article be merged with [[Windows Mobile]]? 

message: Why do we have the newest models written first at the top and the latter ones at the bottom? That makes no chronological sense. The reader is introduced to the newest model and then mysteriously goes backwards in time. It doesn't conform to how other articles are written. 68.42.250.113 (talk) 02:13, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-order the OS section 

message: An image used in this article, , has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests July 2011 
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thread_title: File:O2xda2i.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Pocket PC. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20030207200032/http://microsoft.com:80/mobile/buyersguide/educateme/default.asp to http://www.microsoft.com/mobile/buyersguide/educateme/default.asp
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 19:48, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: other names: hand-held PC, mini PC
There are a number of those PPC's that have NATIVE linux support so the description (where it says "is a kind of personal digital assistant (PDA) that runs the Windows Mobile operating system." ) does not stand in this day and age. I believe this aarticle needs overhaul. 89.201.184.159 (talk) 00:17, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  linux and other names 

message: This article needs a v Ultra-mobile PC section. I means size is approx. the same. Are PPC a subset of UMPC or is the other way around. (It's obviously just a marketing stunt). 89.201.184.159 (talk) 00:49, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  v UMPC