Talk:Ali Pasha Sherif

message: This was particularly interesting... Paper on Slavery. World Statesmen has governor's of Syria and here is Saudi Arabia. Not sure if APS's dad is in there or not. Some info on the British Occupation. Muhamed Pasha's family life has a mention at the bottom about Sharif Pasha being the finance minister, probably the same one we're looking for. Battles of 1882This gives the basis of the occupation/protectorate of Egypt. History of Egypt from Ancient Times might have something in it. Ealdgyth | Talk 00:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An article to look up - "The Conflict of East and West in Egypt. II"  John Eliot Bowen Political Science Quarterly, Vol. 1, No. 3 (Sep., 1886), pp. 449-490; a book All the Pasha's Men: Mehmed Ali, His Army and the Making of Modern Egypt by Khaled Fahmy; interesting web site on the Egyptian Royal Family Egyptian Royal Family; al-Tahtawi the son Ali Fahmi MIGHT be our Ali Pasha Sherif, as APS's name when young was supposedly Ali Bey Fahmi; another article to look up "Al-Hakim Cornelius Van Alen Van Dyck (1818-1895)" Lutfi M. Sa'di, George Sarton, W. T. Van Dyck Isis, Vol. 27, No. 1 (May, 1937), pp. 20-45; Jewelry auction blog well, that seems to show he had jewels or something... dang!Ealdgyth | Talk 03:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, of course they couldn't hold on to it, they had horses! Ealdgyth | Talk 04:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links, Sources, Etc. 

message: I can't find APS on any of the wikipedia lists of foreign ministers, nor his father on lists of governors of Syria/Damascus, etc...the naming and title/honorific conventions are confusing and I am not sure what the heck this fellow did besides raise horses.  (Had tons of trouble finding real life information on Henry Babson too, and he was an American!)  In short, I have run across the various articles on the history of Egypt in this period and it was, to be gracious, chaotic.  So, I am dropping off messages asking for help in some of the Ottoman Empire and Egyptian history areas.  Hope someone bites. Montanabw(talk) 05:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Calling in the reserves 

message: Dear Montanabw: 
Hello! 
I see in your Wikipedia article on Ali Pasha Sherif, that you recently made a link to the Ecole Militaire in Paris. This is an error. The Ecole Militaire is not the same institution as the Ecole Militaire Egyptienne. Ali Pasha Sherif attended the Ecole Militaire Egyptienne, not the Ecole Militaire. 
The Ecole Militaire Egyptienne was a special school that Muhammad Ali Pasha (1769-1849) set up in Paris for the exclusive use of students that he personally approved and sent there. The school was in existence for only 5 years (1844-1849). After Muhammad Ali Pasha passed away in 1849, the school was quickly closed down by Abbas I Pasha who was the Governor of Egypt from 1848-1854.
There are other errors in this article which I have detected. The major remaining error is the confusion of Ali Pasha Sherif's father (who died on Feb. 13, 1865) with a man named Muhammad Sharif Pasha (Feb. 1826 - April 20, 1887). Muhammad Ali Pasha (1769-1849) and these other 2 men were all born at Kavala in northern Greece, which has led many people who are not careful in their research to assume that Ali Pasha Sherif's father and Muhammad Sharif Pasha (1826-1887) were the same person.
My research on this particular issue is still continuing, but following are the basic conclusions I have arrived at. 
It was indeed Ali Pasha Sherif's father who was Governor of Damascus, Syria from November 1832 to some time in 1838. Since Muhammad Sharif Pasha wasn't born until 1826, he couldn't have been appointed Governor of Syria in 1832, since he would have only been 6 years old at the time of the appointment. Also, more than likely it was also Ali Pasha Sherif's father who was head of the Egyptian Financial Ministry in 1844, since Muhammad Sharif Pasha would only have been 18 years old at that time. 
However, since Ali Pasha Sherif's father died in 1865, the Egyptian governmental positions that he is usually credited as holding in the 1870s and 1880s were actually held by Muhammad Sharif Pasha, who didn't die until 1887.
Another point well worth considering is the following. 
It is known that Ali Pasha Sherif (1834-1897) had 2 brothers, namely Khalil Pasha Sherif (June 20, 1831 - January 12, 1879) and Osman. Khalil was a famous art collector and Ottoman diplomat. If you check the biographical and genealogical records available on Muhammad Sharif Pasha (1826-1887), you will find that he had a few sons, but that their first names were not Ali, Khalil and Osman. This is further proof that Ali Pasha Sherif's father and Muhammad Sharif Pasha were definitely not the same man.
Furthermore, the available records state the following.
"Muhammad Ali Pasha [1769-1849] brought El Sayed Muhammad Cherif [Ali Pasha Sherif's father], of Kawala [Kavala, a city in Macedonia, Greece] origin, to Egypt when he was 12 years old, and obtained admittance for him into the school at Khanka [El-Khanka, a city 12 miles northeast of Cairo], where all the sons of the Pashas and Princes were educated. He filled many posts in the Egyptian government during the reign of Muhammad Ali Pasha under the name El Sayed Mohamed Cherif Pacha El Kebir. He was made Wali (Governor) of all Arabia, including Lebanon and Syria."
According to the historical records, Muhammad Ali Pasha (1769-1849) was born in Kavala (Cavalla), Macedonia, Greece, and first journeyed to Egypt in 1799 (when he was about 30 years old) as an officer in the Ottoman expeditionary force that was defeated by the French at Abu Kir in July, 1799. It is quite possible that when Muhammad Ali Pasha left Kavala for Egypt in 1799, he took 12-year old El Sayed Muhammad Cherif with him. If that was indeed the case, then we can calculate that if El Sayed Muhammad Cherif was 12 years old in 1799, he was born around the year 1787. This is another proof that El Sayed Muhammad Cherif and Muhammad Sharif Pasha were not the same person, since Muhammad Sharif Pasha wasn't born until 1826 - approximately 39 years after the birth of Ali Pasha Sherif's father.
I plan to add some documentation to your article, in substantiation of the statements made above, as time permits. Plus, I am still conducting research in order to make sure that I have reached the right conclusions on these particular points. This is very much a work in progress.
Sincerely yours,
72.68.107.232 (talk) 12:30, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  RE: Wikipedia Article on Ali Pasha Sherif 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080612234105/http://www.arabianhorses.org/education/education_bloodlines_crabbet.asp to http://www.arabianhorses.org/education/education_bloodlines_crabbet.asp
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080706133604/http://www.arabianhorses.org/education/education_bloodlines_egyptian.asp to http://www.arabianhorses.org/education/education_bloodlines_egyptian.asp
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101013203252/http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/717/feature.htm to http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/717/feature.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified