Talk:Avars (Caucasus)

message: Avars or Caucasian Avars are a modern people of Caucasus, mainly of Daghestan, which are the predominant group. The Capital city of Caucasian Avars is Khunzakh which means “At the Huns” or “The city of Huns”. Their self designation is “Avaral” and “Ma’arulal” (from “mu’rul Avaral”, “Avarian Highlanders”). The Caucasian Avar language is said to show some affinity ancient Mesopotamian agglutinative languages like Hurrian, Sino-Tibetan and also Ket (Yenissei Ostyak)  of which there are now less than 500 speakers left in Siberia. It appears from Chinese sources that a Yenisseian group was among the peoples that up the tribal confederation known as the Huns (Xiong-Nu, Hsiung-Nu).
  
The linguistic data showed that the contacts of Yenisseian languages with Caucasian languages were later than with Basque and Burushaski not to speak about the Indian languages of America.  This fact permitted to assume that Indians diverged first from that Union, then the Basques and Burushaski and later on the Caucasian people. Taking into consideration the Indian settlements in America to be 15 thousand years ago, A.Dulson approximately defined the Caucasian-Yenisseian language contact at 6-7 thousand years ago. He devoted his last period of life to Yenisseian languages and their comparison with other language families.  Ket having preserved the most ancient structure in the conjugation system gave the key to the explanation of the conjugation system in such languages as Finno-Ugric, Uralo-Altaic, and Indo-European, which was based on pronouns.
In the Caucasian Avar language the word "Avar" is always used any time Avars mention the names of Messengers, Prophets: Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus or Muhammad. For example: Ibrahim-Avarag, Isa-Avarag or Muhammad-Avarag.Thus the word Avarag seems to mean the descendants or followers of the Messenger, Prophet, Messia or Archangel.
One of the prominent figures in Avar history is Sheikh Shamil (1797 – 1871) political and religious leader of the anti-Russian national liberation movement of the Caucasian peoples in 1817 – 1859. He was third imam of Daghestan and Chechnya (1834 – 1859). 
http://www.circassiancanada.com/ing/04_daghestan/05_history/da_caucasian_avars.htm
              
http://www.wikimirror.com/Yeniseian_languages
http://www.hostkingdom.net/caucasus.html#Avaristan
http://www.osi.hu/ipf/fellows/Filtchenko/professor_andrei_petrovitch_duls.htm
--80.237.10.233 19:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Material on Caucasian Avars, with sources

message: Autor wrote that language of  Avars are "Avar and Russian".This is most strange. Armenians,Aserbaijans,Georgians an others knows Russian Language bat about ther's non wrote there's Languages are "Russian" and other.Autor of "caucasian Avars" is russian nationalist. Russian Language is non-Avarian Language. Author wrote "Imam Shamil" bat non wrote about Shamil. Who was Imam Shamil was unknown. Bad Information about Avars from Wiki. Other Author (user 22 May 2006)wrothe good about Avars.
--80.237.10.233 14:24, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, considering the fact that most Avars live in Russia, I would assume that some of them know Russian (at least the ones that live in cities like Makhachkala). —Khoikhoi 01:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear troll, if you had bothered to read the article about Stalin, you would learn that he did not have a drop of Russian blood. He was 100% Georgian, and Georgians and Avars are cousins, right? --Ghirla -трёп- 06:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It was a joke, I've now removed it, ok? And why do you think most Avars know Turkish? They're not even a Turkic people! Is Pan-Turkism expanding it's borders? —Khoikhoi 14:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dispute about languages

message: For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all  infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:15, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "related groups" info removed from infobox

message: http://www.abbeyofreginalaudis.com/sitelive/community/mjerome/mjerome.htm--81.24.84.11 06:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Link about Halil-Beg Mussayassul

message: There's no reason to remove the external link. It provides useful information such as a map for the Avars in Dagestan, some information about the people themselves and about their religious believes. Which criterion makes this link "spam"? — N-true 14:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:EL and WP:SPAM. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]  ‹(-¿-)› 05:59, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "Linkspam"

message: The average reader is going to be completely confused between the relationships (if any, and how demonstrated) between the Caucasian Avars and European Avars (a.k.a. Pseudo-Avars a.k.a Eurasian Avars). Both of these articles needs to be very clear on this blindingly obvious question. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]  ‹(-¿-)› 05:49, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Inter-article cleanup desperately needed

message: Avars are not speak , but the Turko-Mongol children speak. Avars are Aryen-Caucasian.
Turks are Mongol people.
Caucasian Avars were "elit Hun" people.
huns were Caucasian. But Hunnic slaves were mongoloid.
:Um ... WHAT ?!?!?! HammerFilmFan (talk) 19:26, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avars are not speak 

message: See: Abbas-Kuli-Aga Bakikhanov. Gulistan-i Iram (Edition, comments, notes and indexes of the academician of the Academy of sciences of Azerbaijan of Z.M.Bunyatov) Publishing house "Elm", Baku 1990. ).Page 45 Жители окрестностей Аграна были им переселены сюда из Хорасана. Местопребыванием этого эмира также был Агран (Inhabitants of vicinities of Agran have been moved by it here from Khurasan. A residence of this emir also was Agran).On p. 43 A. Bakikhanov informs, that it used the chronicle "Derbend-name".On p. 219 academic -editor of book- A.Buniyatov confirms, that the district Agran corresponds to the Caucasian Avaria: "Агран (Ихран) в Тарих-и Дербенд-наме проходит под названием Аварии" ("Agran (Ikhran)in Derbend-name passes under the name of Avaria "). A.Bakikhanov The author also writes about immigrants (military colonists) from Iran to other Daghestan settlements, but in connection with Khurasan is mentioned only Agran-Avaristan. More shortly, from Khurasan have moved only in Agran. The purpose of resettlement was protection, according to the author leaned the historical chronicle to strengthen defense of Derbend walls. These immigrants were necessary in mountain district that through it there did not pass nomads. Nomads tried to bypass powerful Derbend strengthenings through mountain district. In the same place the author writes, that the Sasanian governor has divided Dagestan into 7 districts and has appointed in Agran the emir. This emir has sat on a gold throne, and the local governor has received from it a silver throne. Author writes that inhabitants of Khurasan have been forwarded in Agran still up to Khosrov Anushirvan by a certain governor by name Isfendiyar. I shall remind, that Sasanian Iran has really spent huge means for construction and protection of Derbend pass. The Sasanides also really pursued a policy of mass resettlements. Besides Sasanian Iran has built on border of Khurasan a powerful wall under the name "The Red snake" or Gorgan Wall.
The Arabian medieval geographer and traveller Ibn-Rustah also wrote about the "Master of the Gold Throne" and the "the Earth of the Throne" Ard-as-Sarir", and Supreme the lord of this empire with name Auhar was " qagan of mountains ". If you will type in V.Minorsky's "Sarir" search system easily will find article of V.Minorsky in English.
At V.Minorsky you also will find that medieval authors of chronicles write, that in Sarir the throne and treasury Sasanides have been Iranian Bahram Ghur sent. It has ostensibly occured from for invasions of Arabs to Iran. But in any case transfer of a throne and treasury means, as what exactly the Caucasian Avaria and its governors could be considered since then as unique heir-at-laws of empire Sasanides with all consequences following from here. By the way, The Parthian word "aparmand" means "inheritance" and aparmanig "noble".
:--Gorgan Aparshahr (talk) 20:03, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources,chroniks,books

message: According to "Gulistan-i Iram" of Abbas-Kuli-Aga-Bakikhanov,p. 44: Город Агран, где Исфандияр воссел на престол, был сделан столицей края (The city of Agran where Isfandiyar has sat on a throne, has been made by capital of edge). Further on p. 44-45 we read: The mouth of the river Terek and copper mine has been given to the local governor silver mine near at Agran. Hot waters on left side of Sulak -river (above Čir-yurt) and now refer to  as "Gelbakhs waters".--Gorgan Aparshahr (talk) 05:33, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: The Sasanian control centre of Daghestan

message: According to D. N. Maсkenzie, A concise Pahlavi Dictionary. Oxford University Press, London, 1971.: "Abar (Manichean 'br, New Pers. bar: up,on,over; abar amadan rise (sun), abar axistan "rise ap", abar nišastan seat, install; abar ['pl] higher,superior, abarag ['pl] Manichean 'brgsuperior, abaragan(ag)superior, abargar god,divinity, abarig other, abarmand inheritance, privilege, abarmanig noble, abar-menišn prought, haughty, abar-oz stronger, abar-tan arrogant abarwez trumphant, victorious. It not Simply top ground, pay attention, that in sources the throne is constantly mentioned, that clearly specifies the superiority above others. We know also, that the self-name of Parthians was APARNAK and thus they were not mountaineers, and more likely nomads. The Aparnaks have originally seized Parthia-Khurasan and оtherefrom have directed on the West. In the Russian annals " The Story of time years" (Povest' Vremennyh let) about avars-warkhonites of Avarian Qaganate it is written, that " the Obr's (=Avars) were high, great, and haughty Such translation is admissible only if to consider the Iranian and Mongolian languages. The matter is that this word has got and in the Mongolian languages: avarga or abarga great, superior, huge, the champion. Abarga mogoy in Miths of Mongols "Great snake, python, the divinator" As to Turkic languages in one of Turkic languages of such word as avarga, abarga or abarag, awarag is not present.In Turkic languages there is only a Persian loan  avare (< abarig "other")" the wanderer, transcender"
According to Altiranisches Woerterbuch (Dictionary of Old Iranian languages) of Christian Bartholomae: upara "oben, nach oben; von oben, vom Hochgebirge herkommend(=oestlich). Uparaitat "Superiotaet, Ueberlegenheit". And about word "agran" see by Bartholomae: Aγra- "der erste, oberste, nach Zeit, Rang usw.:2. Anfang, das Oberste, Spitze"; aγrava "vom Obersten, von der Oberseite stammend"Christian (Bartholomae. Altiranisches Woerterbuch, p.49) . 
All the resulted dictionaries are accessible on the Internet in a format pdf.--Gorgan Aparshahr (talk) 07:26, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: "Agran" and "Abar" according to Iranian Studies

message: According to Kazima Bulayeva: "Interestingly, haplogroup G occurs in the Avars (0.06) but not in the other highland groups. Haplogroup G is common in the Southern Caucasus. The mountain groups also have little R1*(xR1a1) (0.06 in Avars, 0.08 in Kubachi)" See: Y chromosomes and mtDNA of Daghestan groups. July 21. 2008. http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/y-chromosomes-and-mtdna-of-daghestan.html
Haplogroup G is also common for part of Iranian speaking peoples and probably for Sarmatians--Gorgan Aparshahr (talk) 10:06, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  G Haplogroup (Y-chromosome) among Cauc.Avars 

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thread_title: File:H Mussayassul Party.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: Dear user Tigril34! Encyclopaedic clause about the Caucasian Avars cannot begin according to " they were Turks " and in general from a mention about Turks, at all respect for them. You can be have forgotten, what in this world except for Turks still there live also other people? The Article of Caucasian Avars is non article of Kipchaks, Pechenegs and oters. I ask will relieve me in the further from yours editions? Do not involve participants of this clause in unnecessary disputes on unnecessary things. If you really wished something to improve in this clause you, probably, could make it up to me. You of editing destroy clause. Here till now positive was very much and very little. This clause represented a strange Russian salad from senseless and inconsistent messages. Historians should start with sources first of all. In the Byzantian sources it is absolutely precisely told, that in opinion kagan of Goktirks, those avars were Pseudo-avars. That is it did not consider them Avar real. I proceeded also these sources. Besides there are works on genetics. It was written by the international collective. And in searches of traces of Avars in Croatia, they recognized that the European Avars were Mongols. And any word about turkis in this work is not present.There is very much solid an Encyclopedia, under the name " the British encyclopedia "And in it unchecked data are never printed.Here that in it it is written:
AVAR
one of a people of undetermined origin and language, who, playing an important role in eastern Europe (6th–9th century), built an empire in the area between the Adriatic and the Baltic Sea and between the Elbe and Dnieper rivers (6th–8th century). Inhabiting an area in the Caucasus region in 558, they intervened in Germanic tribal wars, allied with the Lombards to overthrow the Gepidae (allies of Byzantium), and between 550 and 575 established themselves in the Hungarian plain between the Danube and Tisza rivers. This area became the centre of their empire, which reached its peak at the end of the 6th century.
Source: "Avar." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica 2007 Ultimate Reference Suite . Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica, 2012.
Resulted by you references to books HAVE no THAT AUTHORITY which is available for the British Encyclopaedia.Still time I repeat, that the page of the Caucasian Avars has no attitude to Turks. All your not clear inserts spoil page. Do not bring henceforth similar amendments. If you accept I can relieve this page of the slightest mention of turkis completely. Never and anywhere you do not prove, that avars were turkis. I do not wish to argue on this theme.As I have understood, you meaningly destroy a page. And I could see in what it has been transformed former editions. It was absolutely pity page and it had a poor maintenance. You possibly hope, that that I shall correct it and when it will get, at last, a tidy kind and the worthy maintenance you enter: " they were turks"? There Is no I with it do not agree. All former editing of page have shown, that it people not the experts limited, not owning were engaged in the information. Everyone who wanted has crippled it as it wished. I have no anything against тюрок, but I do not wish, that the page the Caucasian Avars at once would begin with lines about Turks. And here in general--Gorgan Aparshahr (talk) 23:11, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stop to irrelevance links in article about Caucasian Avars 

message: Dear user Tigril34,I have cleaned your mention of Turks in the beginning of clause. My source is clear: 1. The Encyclopaedia Britannica: 2. Opinion most of Qagan of Gokturks. And stop!To a theme of Anatolian Turks we still shall return in special section where the materials which are partly throwing light a genetic origin аварцев will be given. Here there Anatolian Turks will be mentioned too which alongside with Iranians in opinion of the some genetiks are very close relatives of the Caucasian Avars. But it is absolutely another question and while to write about it time has not come. You wish only - to receive one well edited clause and then to add there only one - "THEY WERE TURKS!". ;-) Here your purpose. It is More to you it is necessary than nothing. If you wish really something to help, help please! But this comments about Caucasian People, instead of any Turkic Christian peoples. Do not confuse!--Gorgan Aparshahr (talk) 01:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  About Turks and not solid sources 

message: Some of the information presented about the (Caucasian) Avars is actually in reference to the Turkic-speaking group also called Avars. Specifically, the quotes from Priscus and Theophylact Simocatta, and the whole first paragraph in general. This seems to be somewhat corrected by a mention of the "Pseudo-Avars," but the meaning of the caveat is hard to discern, even in context, without a prior knowledge of what "pseudo-Avar" refers to. The suggestion of contiguity between the two groups is, as far as its lack of documentation is concerned, unbased. Additionally, available information on Sarir mentions nothing of the Avars that supposedly founded the polity, so much as I can tell.
Additionally, I suggest removing the word "Alorodian" from the article, as this is only a hypothetical, and as of yet unaccepted, language family.
75.80.102.235 (talk) 04:41, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Wrong Avars, Unsourced Connections

message: This is a very intriguing nest of information about the Avars. But, it suffers from the problem that often plagues longer WP articles: organization. Three or four different views are presented with no clear distinctions. Each editor is plugging his own view as though it were the proven truth. Well, that is human enough. The main problem I note in the resulting organization is the insufficient distinction between Caucasian Avars and Eurasian Avars. By title, this is the Caucasian. Material on the Eurasian belongs in the Eurasian article. I understand, there are different points of view. Maybe the Avars took their name from the Turkics, maybe from the Iranians. Maybe these Avars settled after a life on the plains. I don't know how you are going to work this out, but each theory needs to be clearly distinguished by sectioning or leading sentences. As it is now I get the idea that the name of the original Avars might appear in ancient Chinese writings. In the very next section they came from the land of the Hurrians. The result is pretty confused. I suggest someone with some knowledge take over the article, and the rest of you leave him alone until he is done. Thanks. Man's worst impediment, of course, is himself.Branigan 11:15, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: The Organization 

message: :It is not about Caucasian Avar people, but Eurasian Avars. Bests, Ali-al-Bakuvi (talk) 21:47, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Doh! Thanks. Moving my comment to Talk:Eurasian Avars. Sca (talk) 15:45, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Moving comment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Dear IP,
born in Dagestan would mean Avar ethnicity?(KIENGIR (talk) 22:39, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abdullah Fa'izi ad-Daghestan 

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