Talk:Treaty of Tripoli

message: Since David Barton has been discussed a number of times on this page, it's fair to mention that his reputation has recently suffered a kind of semi-meltdown -- he's received severe criticism from some Christian historical scholars, and his most recent book, "The Jefferson Lies", was withdrawn by Thomas Nelson who "lost confidence in its accuracy".  He still has his supporters, but they appear to be mainly among hard-line political activists and religious fringe figures, rather than mainstream evangelicals (and certainly not historians)... AnonMoos (talk) 23:29, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Barton developments

message: the main point of the article --the only reason the treaty is of interest--must be in the lede--that is the statement:
:"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." Rjensen (talk) 00:06, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The treaty certainly has historical significance in its own right, so I'm not sure I agree with that. It seems better as a separate paragraph in the body. I've left it in the lede, but put it after the factual/historical description. I also simplified and consolidated it to remove redundancy. If it remains in the lede, I question if the fact that the phrase does not appear in the Arabic version should also be added. John2510 (talk) 22:33, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Keep main point in lede

message: This sentence that is in the current version of the article does not make sense to me: 
"Some religious spokesmen such as David Barton claim variously that — despite unanimous ratification by the U.S. Senate in English — the text which appears as Article 11 in the English translation does not appear in the Arabic text of the treaty..." 
Whether or not the U.S. Senate ratified the Treaty in English has no bearing on the fact that Article 11 does not exist in the original Arabic (the Treaty was originally written in Arabic, then translated into other languages, including English, en route to the U.S. for ratification by the Senate). It appears to me that the sentence is attempting to negate an unwritten argument, that argument probably being along the lines that Article 11 wasn't ratified by the U.S. Senate. In any event, the sentence as written expresses a POV that should not exist in the article. 
Yes it does. Because it is the English version that the United States considers law along with all of the English version's clauses.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.67.4.155 (talk) 06:02, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it is a matter of questioning and dispute. The Arabic version in existence in the 1930s is clearly not the same, but we don't even know for sure which Arabic document was laid before the Senate in 1797, much less what all the copies actually signed at Tripoli and Algiers said. Saying "the only copy now in existence is not the same" is quite different from saying "all of the copies signed in 1797 differ"; that latter is unproven and now unprovable. Biblioteqa (talk) 15:06, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discrepency Between Arabic and English Versions 

message: Re this edit and the one preceding it, let's not cast this as an unsupported statement of editorial opinion. There's an analysis at  by what looks to be a pretty authoritative source which could be used as support for an assertion about this. Perhaps other similarly authoritative analyses exist which could/should be included per WP:DUE exist. Wtmitchell  (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 09:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The Senate & president Adams expressed an official position. The nation officially went on record  in accordance with the Constitutional procedures. Rjensen (talk) 10:07, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not arguing otherwise. This is covered on pp.239-241 of the book mentioned above, including a quote of President Adams' statement. I mistakenly linked to p.24 of the book above -- I meant to link to p.240; I've modified that. Wtmitchell  (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 11:10, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: yes we're agreed. I changed the text to make it clearer. Rjensen (talk) 13:02, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assumptions re private thoughts of ratifiers of the treaty 

message: The original Constitution of the United States was signed by representatives of the several states. How many of those signing were in the Senate at the time of its unanimous ratification of the Treaty of Tripoli just ten years later? (Here's a list of the Constitution's signers: U.S. Constitution - Signatories) --71.174.167.176 (talk) 17:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the Constitution was ratified by elected conventions in each of the 13 states. Thousands of men attended these conventions and participated in the formal ratification of the Constitution. Several states demanded a Bill of Rights, but no one demanded a statement of allegiance to Christianity. Rjensen (talk) 18:20, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The response above from Rjensen should be noted. However, to find the answer to the specific question asked, compare Senate members listed in the 5th United States Congress article with the signatories to the Constitution. See also WP:TPG and WP:HW Wtmitchell  (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:21, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

text: 71.174.167.176 -- Abraham Lincoln's famous Cooper Union speech compiled some interesting statistics about signers of the Constitution who voted for certain slavery-related measures passed by Congress during the same era (though not for the Treaty of Tripoli itself, of course); you might find the text of the Cooper Union speech interesting... AnonMoos (talk) 01:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many U.S. Constitution signers? 

message: There was a sentence saying the secular and religious historians have noted that, and then John Eidsmoe was used as a source.
Eidsmoe is not a historian. He is an attorney from Alabama with various religious degrees (ministry, divinity, biblical studies, etc.) from religious schools. As such he cannot be used as a source for what historians say. 
It's also worth noting that that the sentence originally said both secular and religious historians argued the side, but 2 of the 3 were clearly religious only. It seems like it was written that way to make them sound more secular than they were. 
Now it's one of two. The only one who can be in any way called secular is Frank Lambert. His opinions were taking up about half of the section. His is certainly a valid opinion, reliably sourced to an expert on the topic, but he's not the only or most important author. Lacking balancing text from other authors, I trimmed some of the section to avoid an WP:UNDUE weight problem. We should really include one or more named sources with differing opinions to give more balanced coverage. DreamGuy (talk) 20:56, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  John Eidsmoe and "historians" 

message: I removed the Further reading section from the article. All it consisted of was one book, and that book was from an extremely minor religious press advocating a specific view. If we are going to include a list of books we recommend to our readers, it needs to have a much more wide variety of views included. Having only that one has the end result of telling people this author's opinion is the only one who counts.
Furthermore, any article that already has a good list of reliable sources does not need a Further reading section. If a book is worth referring to, it should be used as a source for the article itself. If it doesn't say anything comparable to what sources actually used in the article say, then it isn't worth pointing out to our readers. DreamGuy (talk) 17:42, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is by no means complete. It's not 10% complete on most diplomatic topics. Students who want more will come here to find further information & perspectives for their own class papers that the editors have not yet included. Rjensen (talk) 02:14, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further reading 

message: I have some suggestions re the Article 11 section. I think that these would be improvements, but I'm a bit gun-shy about the idea of boldly changing that section
*The first paragraph says in part, "Some religious spokesmen claim variously that — despite unanimous ratification by the U.S. Senate in English — the text which appears as Article 11 in the English translation does not appear in the Arabic text of the treaty.", citing  in support. 
:*The cited source does not provide support for the "Some [unnamed] religious spokesmen" assertion.
:*The "despite unanimous ratification" assertion appears to me to be unnecessarily argumentative.
:*I suggest replacing this text with "the text which appears as Article 11 in the English translation does not appear in the Arabic text of the treaty.", supported by the currently-cited source.
*In the final sentence of the first paragraph, I suggest replacing the words "the phrase" with "Article 11".
*The first clause of that final sentence cites  in support, wherein it is argued not only that the Government is distinct from the People, but that the Founders crafted a secular State. The second clause, citing a different source, makes the point that many Founding Fathers and newspapers described America as a Christian nation during the early-Republic. Considering their cited supporting sources, those two clauses seem to me to be at odds with one another.
:*The paragraph following the Article 11 quote starts out, "According to Frank Lambert, ...". Lambert is the source cited in support of the first clause of the final sentence of the initial paragraph. I suggest moving that material down and integrating it with the material there supported by citing Lambert.
:*So as not to give the point in the second clause (which is somewhat at odds with Lambert) undue weight by leaving it in the initial paragraph, I suggest relocating it lower, following the Lambert material.
Wtmitchell  (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 02:20, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestions 

message: -- 208.68.128.90 (talk) 15:33, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Its current interest is not that, but the fact that some of the same people who wrote the U.S. Constitution had no problem with a declaration that the U.S. is "not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" (which went through Congress without ascertainable dissent)... AnonMoos (talk) 16:29, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Will someone who understands treaty law explain whether dictum from a breached treaty with a now non-existent nation has any bearing on anything?

message: I've removed the word variously from a sentence reading, "Some religious spokesmen claim variously that—despite unanimous ratification by the U.S. Senate in English—the text which appears as Article 11 in the English translation does not appear in the Arabic text of the treaty."
Variously seems to have appeared in this September 2010 edit, which listed various (three, actually) claims in comma-delimited clauses. The current version of the article presents the claims in two separate sentences, and I've removed the word variously from the first of these separate sentences which only concerns itself with one claim. Perhaps an introductory sentence might be appropriate to explain that there are various claims prior to describing the claims separately. Perhaps such an introductory sentence is not needed. I'm no grammarian, so please do correct me as needed. Wtmitchell  (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 23:14, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''variously'' in the ''Article 11'' section 

message: We've learned that this treaty between USA and Ottoman Empire, accept the fact, why you are distorting it? This is only foreign language (Turkish) treaty of your 200 years of history. And the only treaty in US history that accepted paying tax to a foreign country (Ottoman Empire). I couldn't believe when I saw the English version... --Karak1lc1k (talk) 20:26, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved this new section to the bottom of the talk page, where it belongs. I've also reverted the associated edit to the article. Please treat this discussion as the "D" phase of WP:BRD. I'm no topical expert, and I hope that regular editors off this article who are more expert than I will sort this out. I do note  which describes the treaty as, "the treaty of Peace and Amity concluded between said U S of America & the Regency of Tripoli by the intervention of the late Hassan Barshaw Dey of Algiers and under the immediate Guaranty of said Regency". Wtmitchell  (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 22:06, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

text: Karak1lc1k -- "Barbary" was a common English name for northwest Africa (originally inhabited mainly by Berbers) well into the 19th century.  And various parts of Northwest Africa acknowledged nominal or quasi-nominal Ottoman suzerainty or overlordship at various times, but the treaty was not signed with the Ottoman empire, nor was it in Turkish. AnonMoos (talk) 15:02, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's absolutely signed with Ottoman Empire, also it was in Turkish, research it, learn it, and claim a thing. Simple. Karak1lc1k (talk) 03:54, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, sources indicate otherwise. AnonMoos (talk) 18:05, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  In our history there is no word like "barbary", distorted info, the treaty was between just Ottomans and US 

message: Isn't that suppose to be Yusuf Karamanli? There is ambiguity when the article says "in its place is a letter from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli." I'm assuming Yusuf is the pasha, the same guy that starts the war against America with the Thomas Jefferson. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 07:32, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who signed the treaty in Tripoli? 

message: A Turkish IP  again changed the language to Ottoman Turkish , despite the Yale footnote stating: "Original in Arabic. Submitted to the Senate May 29, 1797." 
I suggest keep an eye on this since this is not the first time the that change has been made. --Pudeo' 04:29, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language of the treaty 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Treaty of Tripoli. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070916113305/http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm to http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080215092040/http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1805t.htm to http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1805t.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 07:34, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The section "Signing and Ratification" contains the following sentence: "The official treaty was in Arabic text, and a translated version by Consul-General Barlow was ratified by the United States on June 10, 1797." 
There's no immediate citation for the proposition that the "official" treaty was the Arabic text. At the end of the paragraph, citation 8 refers to a Yale website, which so far as I can tell also does not say that the "official" treaty was the Arabic text. 
I therefore suggest that "official" is the wrong word there. Worse, it evinces a bias by insinuating that the English text of the treaty signed by John Adams, ratified by the Senate, and maintained as the Treaty of Tripoli in US archives for almost the entire duration of the American republic, is somehow "unofficial." This in turn undermining the legitimacy of Article 11.
I therefore urge that the word "official" be replaced with "original," unless an authoritative source is produced indicating that the Arabic text, which was not signed by John Adams, and was not ratified by the Senate, is nonetheless the "official" version. 
Thanks! 
Bug1333 (talk) 14:50, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Official" treaty? 

message: This edit caught my eye and resulted in this subsequent edit by me, after which I went on to WP:BOLDly  create the new Treaty of Tripoli (1805) article. That leads to the need for additional work which I have not done -- moving this article to Treaty of Tripoli (1796), creating a disambiguation page for the two articles, reviewing links in other articles targeting the current article name, and making adjustments there as needed. Barring objection, I intend to start work on the rest of that in a few days.
Discussion? Wtmitchell  (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 13:55, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a hatnote would be more appropriate given the relative notoriety of the 1796 treaty compared to the 1805 one. older ≠ wiser 14:30, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds good to me; I wasn't relishing the prospect of reviewing all tose links in other articles. Wtmitchell  (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 15:22, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

text: I've gone ahead and added the hatnote. Wtmitchell  (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 15:55, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  New article and proposed move 

message: The sentence attributed to Citation 4 (Article 11) is incomplete with respect to the intended thought of the document and hints strongly of cherry picking. The sentence here begins with "The (government)... and ends with  "religion." where as the actual Article 11 begins with "AS the government..." and pauses with a semicolon after "religion" and continues on to give the complete the thought of article 11. The article is one entire sentence and reads "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. 74.97.73.84 (talk) 15:50, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation 4 - Punctuation is important  

message: @Bkonrad: Can we cite the source of the treaty’s text used for the transcription that’s provided. And remove the image which doesn’t say the same thing? Having two versions of the text is confusing, and doesn’t seem necessary.       —I'llbeyourbeach (talk) 08:26, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. older ≠ wiser 09:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transcription of treaty text