Talk:Feminists for Life

message: Is rhere any reason to use a template? Where is that one from? I question some of the information included in it. On what basis is FFL's "Type" described as "non-profit pro-life feminist organization", its "Field" as "pro-life feminism," and its "Purpose" as "pro-life advocacy"? Sounds like someone just made it up. Cloonmore (talk) 03:22, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template 

message: I removed the Anthony quote "Sweeter even than to have had the joy of caring for children of my own has it been to me to help bring about a better state of things for mothers generally, so their unborn little ones could not be willed away from them" because she was not necessarily talking about abortion. The context was a question posed to her asking why she didn't have kids of her own. The interpretation of her response is wide open—it has been taken to mean a number of things. The mainstream Anthony scholars take it as a statement about patriarchal inheritance laws. A widow who bore her dead husband a child was not its legal protector—it was the child of the estate, not her child. Binksternet (talk) 18:23, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Your removal was inappropriate. The Talk page is not a place to debate whether or not you believe Anthony uttered the quote. The important fact is that FFL uses the quote prominently in its materials, and, therefore, it should be mentioned in the article, as well as the fact that some question the quote's attribution to SBA. (And by the way, the article doesn't cite "historians" or "mainstream Anthony scholars." It cites one historian, a journalist, & the former head of Planned Parenthood.) Cloonmore (talk) 05:08, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The talk page is the perfect place for discussions of what goes in or doesn't go in the article. There are plenty of resources which will add together to support both "historians" and "mainstream Anthony scholars", both shorthand for "all of these smart people who say"... One scholarly essay appears in the organ of the absolute definition of mainstream feminism: NWSA Journal. I will be incorporating this link in the article soon. Binksternet (talk) 05:30, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The quote's attribution is not questioned. About FFL using the quote prominently, this page is not for placing every prominently used quote they employ, just the ones that give insight to the stance of FFL. The Anthony quote used raw, without contextual elaboration, is not what an encyclopedia is about. This article is not FFL's brochure, it is about telling their story. A bald quote tells nothing. Binksternet (talk) 15:16, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The Talk page is the place to discuss what goes in or out, not your views of the quote. And you were indeed questioning the quote's attribution to SBA, so I don't understand you latest denial. This article is far from an FFL brochure. How, pray tell, can the article include a section critical of FFL's use of SBA quotes without including the actual quote at issue?? I'm trying to assume good faith as to your edits, but your reference to anyone who takes issue with FFL as "all these smart people" gives me serious doubt about your motives.Cloonmore (talk) 15:29, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Where was I questioning attribution? I know full well that nobody questions whether SBA said this quote. About its use here, there is no sense in having any 19th century feminist quote that is uninterpreted for the reader. None. Binksternet (talk) 15:33, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Does your assertion, "Anthony's authorship is in doubt", ring a bell? Cloonmore (talk) 15:42, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You conveniently combine two of my edits in your linked diff so that the first one is labeled with the second one's edit summary. Let me break them up and explain the relevant diff. In this this edit I deleted a few words expressing confidence in Anthony's authorship relative to the quote "horrible crime of child-murder" which is challenged by Lynn Sherr in the article. I changed "FFL asserts they continue the tradition of early American feminists such as Susan B. Anthony, whose stated condemnation of abortion they cite prominently" to "FFL asserts they continue the tradition of early American feminists such as Susan B. Anthony, who they cite prominently," and I moved the wikilink to abortion down to its next appearance. The fact of Anthony's "stated condemnation of abortion" has been thrown in doubt so I removed it. Nothing in this edit was intended to comment on the "Sweeter even than" quote, which has nothing to do with abortion, and whose attribution nobody doubts. Binksternet (talk) 16:09, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Talk about unilateral! My stated reason for removing the "Sweeter even than" quote is that it has nothing to do with FFL today. We are not here to present each of FFL's brochures in their entirety. What POV is it that I am holding? Even FFL notes that the quote is about a law that is long gone, one that speaks to the unfairness of a widowed mother not being the legal custodian of a child born after the death of the father. The quote does not belong here. Binksternet (talk) 17:33, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing to do with FFL today? Besides yourself, what's your source for that claim? The quote is prominent on FFL's webpage and cited in The American Feminist in support of SBA's pro-life inclinations. You're obviously quite willing to expand sections criticizing FFL's use of SBA quotes, but you won't tolerate including the actual quotes in dispute! Your POV is showing, Binky. I'm not interested in an edit war with you, but your position is completely untenable and your deletions improper. Cloonmore (talk) 22:09, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If by POV you mean I wish the article to be accurate, then yes. The untenable position is to insist on a quote that has not been given context by FFL or by Wikipedia editors. This article is part of an encyclopedia, not a promotional flyer. Show me where FFL uses the quote to support anything about Anthony's position on abortion and I'll show you where The American Feminist discusses the old inheritance law about the widowed mother who is to give birth to a child of which she will not have custody. I don't know everything there is in the world, but I believe that FFL has never tried to explain the quote specifically in abortion terms—instead, I believe that FFL puts the quote out as prominently as it does, without explication, so that readers jump to the same false conclusion you have. FFL knows better, and here's a hint: Derr. Binksternet (talk) 22:38, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Binky, by POV I mean your POV, of course, which has nothing to do with accuracy. You don't dispute the accuracy of the quote. You don't dispute its attribution to SBA. You don't dispute that if you click on "FFL's Mission" on its website, you come face-to-face with that very quote. No, this isn't about accuracy, it's about your personal critique of FFL. You're entitled to your opinion, but keep it out of the article, please. Cloonmore (talk) 22:50, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Call me Binksternet per WP:CIVILITY. That "About Us" page in your link has no explanatory text tying the quote to abortion. There, the quote is shown bare, allowing the reader to jump to conclusions. Derr doesn't share your similar conclusion that the quote is about abortion, and FFL has never (as far as I know) tried to link the quote overtly to abortion. It is, in fact, about a dried-up inheritance law against which Anthony and her colleagues fought, apparently thanklessly, for our benefit 120 years later. If you don't quote Derr's interpretation of the quote, or another mainstream Anthony scholar, the quote doesn't belong here. Binksternet (talk) 23:24, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

text: I would still like to see stronger reason than the quote appearing on the "About Us" page of the FFL website, or it appearing in an issue of the house journal. In those cases, the quote is accompanied by no connective text from FFL saying how it is important to them. The onus for inclusion in the article is on the one trying to put something in, not take something out. Binksternet (talk) 15:08, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "Stronger reason" than the fact that FFL's website prominently links to the quote and a pic of SBA when one clicks on "FFL's Mission", and the fact that it's discussed in the American Feminist?  How about the fact that the quote was used on posters in FFL's College Outreach program, as detailed in the very NWSA Journal article that you have cited? (BTW, that article goes on to evaluate the use of the quote and its possible meaning, so obviously the author considered it important enough to include in her FFL analysis.)  Also, Binkster, you repeatedly give your own interpretation of the quote, but offer no support for that interpretation. Ditto for your assertion as to the editorial "onus." Cloonmore (talk) 18:26, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, much stronger reason. Just because some quote appears on one of the FFL webpages doesn't mean this article needs to duplicate that quote. Just because the quote was used, among other quotes, for a promotional campaign, doesn't mean we need to bring it here for display in the same way that it was used on FFL posters and brochures. This article is about telling the FFL story, just as every Wikipedia article should be about telling the story of its subject. The bare naked quote tells nothing. Why would anyone want a bare quote on this page, if the quoted person said it 100 years before FFL was formed? FFL Member and SBA historian Mary Krane Derr studied this quote and concluded that Anthony had seen some success in fighting for the right of a widowed mother to keep any child she birthed after the death of her husband—previously, the child was considered part of the dead father's estate, and could be taken away from the mother if so stated in the father's will. Derr wrote this in this article about Susan B. Anthony. So if you're willing to have the quote proved to be about inheritance laws, then you're willing to have it shown that FFL's use of the quote is misguided or perhaps even misleading. Me, I wasn't trying to take the quote to that point, the point where FFL is made to look foolish or coldly calculating; instead I was willing to let it slip unmentioned from the page. Binksternet (talk) 08:08, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Anthony quote "Sweeter even"

message: These sentences are wrong for the lede: "A bill was sponsored by FFL in 2005–2006, the Elizabeth Cady Stanton Pregnant and Parenting Students Act. This bill was criticized for being a "largely hollow 'message bill'" that did little to help U.S. women." The first sentence is inaccurate: FFL didn't sponsor anything. The 2nd sentence gives undue weight to one pro-choice journalist's opinion, and misquotes her at that. The lede shouldn't even refer to the Stanton Act bill since it overemphasizes a topic that is not a major facet of the article.  Cloonmore (talk) 23:26, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The article puts a lot of emphasis in the bill, so the lead section mirrors that. If FFL didn't sponsor the bill, change that word to match what they did do. "Lobbied for"? "Advocated"? "Promoted"? I wonder how you know more than the Mother Jones writer that ""largely hollow 'message bill'" is a misquote? Binksternet (talk) 23:42, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am beginning to wonder if you have a too-close connection to FFL. Are you a member? An administrator or board member? A contributor to the house journal? If so, check WP:COI for the limits on your participation here. Binksternet (talk) 23:46, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Note that WP:LEAD encourages the lead section to summarize the article, and there is significant article space given the bill. It and its criticism belong in the lede. Binksternet (talk) 15:10, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lede: Stanton Act 

message: I don't know if this source can be used, but in this book, Don Sloan, M.D. terms (lower case) feminists for life "anti-choice feminists". He also says "'feminists for life,' as if other feminists weren't." A wry play on words, ultimately critical of FFL. Perhaps it can be used in passing. Binksternet (talk) 01:02, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism of the name 

message: Recently, some back and forth changes have involved the presence or absence of the quote from Susan B. Anthony's periodical The Revolution which starts "Guilty?" One recent version had this blockquote standing alone: 
:"Guilty? Yes. No matter what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed. It will burden her conscience in life, it will burden her soul in death; But oh, thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime!"
As presented, the quote does not describe what FFL's position is regarding it. Quotes from 130–140 years ago have no bearing on FFL's issues of today unless they are connected overtly and forthrightly with the beliefs of FFL. Some text explaining FFL's stance on the quote must be present.
This version of the page from January 4, 2010 includes the quote, but frames it in terms of its use in Anthony's day: 
:Susan B. Anthony dedicated her early career to abolitionism and the Temperance movement. After the American Civil War, her interest in women's suffrage became foremost in her life; she worked tirelessly toward gaining for women the right to vote. Occasionally, she touched upon other issues related to women's rights. Though she never married, Anthony published her views about marriage, holding that a woman should be allowed to refuse sex with her husband; the American woman had no legal recourse at that time against rape by her husband. Anthony devoted very little time to the subject of "child murder", or abortion. Of primary importance to Anthony was a woman's right to choose whether or not to engage in sexual activity. She saw this form of empowerment as essential for the prevention of unwanted pregnancies, using abstinence as the method. In her newspaper, The Revolution, she wrote in 1869 about the subject, arguing that, instead of merely attempting to pass a law against abortion, the root cause must also be addressed. Simply passing an anti-abortion law would, she wrote, "be only mowing off the top of the noxious weed, while the root remains." Anthony continued: "Guilty? Yes, no matter what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed. It will burden her conscience in life, it will burden her soul in death; but oh! thrice guilty is he who, for selfish gratification, heedless of her prayers, indifferent to her fate, drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime."
A good description of the quote and its context can be found at prolifequakers.com.
The smaller version of the quote appears to leave out chunks of original verbiage without giving the reader notice, and that version has not a bit of explanatory text to enlighten the reader why it is important to FFL. The larger version of the quote is more complete but fails to place FFL's position in context with the extensive context given to its 19th century origins. Because of this failing, it required some work—perhaps some text describing when FFL began using it, on which materials or on which campaigns, and why they think it important. Instead, in this edit, Cloonmore took the whole thing out. Subsequently in this edit, Cloonmore re-inserted the quote but without its Anthony context, and with no new context regarding FFL. Without any context whatsoever, I cannot see its relevance to FFL and to this article. Binksternet (talk) 03:46, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''The Revolution'' quote "Guilty?" 

message: Since there are only two people involved in this discussion at the moment, allow me to offer the following observation: the structure of the article is generally in need of improvement (the first four sections seem plonked at random; "Membership" is clearly related to "structure and chapters" and why is the ""Women Deserve Better" campaign" not part of "History"?). An area where this is particularly relevant to the matter in hand is the overlap between the subsection "Controversy over Susan B. Anthony" and the section "References to 19th century feminists". The latter is again rather oddly and contextlessly positioned. Think about how to improve the structure, and you may move this dispute forward as well. Rd232 talk 16:20, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree 100% on your structure suggestions. As well, I believe that the section called "Statement of purpose" should be entitled "Beliefs and campaigns" or similar, and that statements about what FFL believes or does are closely connected, under the same heading, with statements from the wider public reaction to FFL's beliefs and actions. This rather than a "Critique" section (this sounds like a classroom exercise.) Criticism sections reflect poor writing style. Binksternet (talk) 15:21, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Article structure, moving forward

message: I removed the  because this article is not about one of the concepts of feminism. Instead, this article is about an organization. Binksternet (talk) 04:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: And..,? Cloonmore (talk) 02:58, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Feminism sidebar

message: I removed the Sharon Long quote that starts "regarding contraception". She repeats things Foster has said so her voice is not needed. The message is that there is a wide range of contraception beliefs in FFL's membership, which no one doubts. Foster says this in the NPR interview that is cited right there in the same paragraph. Long is simply not needed.
Another, smaller problem with the Long quote is that the source is inaccessible: http://98.129.134.2/doc/20100405/letter
The URL is to a document folder at The Nation in New York, one that gives me the result "access denied". I can tell by searching The Nation that it was indeed published, but the URL is not helpful to people who do not have a paid subscription. Binksternet (talk) 04:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It was a bad link. So?  On what basis did you represent that Sharon Long's letter was "unpublished" and that "The criticism from Pollitt went unanswered"?  Cloonmore (talk) 02:57, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Sharon Long quote

message: I'm working on too many other articles at the moment to take care of this, but if anyone wants "Contested Loyalties: Dissident Identity Organizations, Institutions, and Social Movements" by Kelsey Kretschmer (Journal of Sociological Perspectives, 52.4 Winter 2009), which discusses FFL, I can get it to them. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:57, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to see this article. Binksternet (talk) 07:01, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's easy to get on here, I'd like to see it as well. Thanks! NYyankees51 (talk) 17:10, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Here you go! Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:51, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: they meet five criteria. It is suspicious that certain policies are being called in to wholesale delete information about pro-life organizations. Elizium23 (talk) 01:35, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self-published sources