Talk:Ethiopian–Adal War

message: Wouldn't a better name for this subject be "The Invasion of Ahmad Gragn"? After all, Gragn did not see this conflict in terms of Adal vs. Ethiopia, but as Moslem vs. Christian. At least the author of the Futuh colors his account of this series of violent events with this mindset, separating his campaigns into the Ethiopian highlands into "The first Jihad", "The second Jihad", etc. -- llywrch 18:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I admit that finding information about this period in history is difficult. For example, the Futuh al-habasa was only available in a French translation from the late 19th century until a few years ago, when Paul Stenhouse published his English translation; however, this book takes things only up to the middle of the invasion. Then there are the two sources that R.S. Whiteway translated back in 1902 -- fortunately, you can obtain an electronic copy of this work in PDF format thru Google books. (More details at Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi and Dawit II of Ethiopia.) I've been slow in working on this due to inherent nature of working with primary sources: ignore the original research concerns, constructing a coherent narrative from primary sources is much like assembling a jigsaw puzzle, only you never know if you have all of the pieces! As for secondary sources, most of the ones I've found cover the 14 years at most a page or two, & often fail to have adequate access to all of the primary sources. Then there is the nationalist angle, e.g. was the Imam Ahmad Gragn a Somali? It's a tough topic, & not for the timid; I only wish I were less timid. ;-) llywrch 18:39, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually have a copy of Pankhurst's translation of the Futuh although it's at home and not accessible to me right now, though I'm sure my library has a copy, so I'll work on this article when I can, but it'll have to be very infrequently. You should check out Pankhurst's Ethiopian borderlands, though, Llywrch. It covers the period covered by the Futuh with respective to the outlying provinces (basically all of the first years) extensively, which can help set up a basic chronology, although won't help that much in precise dates, strategies, attacks, etc. For that, you may try it's entry (I think under Ahmed Gragn) in the Encyclopaedia Aethiopica. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 19:10, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

text: You guys rock!  Thnx for putting those sources out there.  i found an english translation of the Futuh al-habasa on amazon.com so i'll see if i can get my hands on it.Scott Free 19:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Invasion or War

message: Hi there and thnx for getting involved with the article. I tried to have a discussion on the naming of this conflict on like 4 different pages and got zero feedback.  I was gonna go with your title, but opted for this one for two reason
*1...I figured the name was too cumbersom and would make the article hard to find
*2...I figured a conflict between organized states for FOURTEEN YEARS was more than just an invasion.  For instance, when America attack Iraq, it was dubbed "the american invasion of iraq" for the first year or two.  After being there for two more, it became "the iraq war". just something to chew on there.
*3...i went to a lot of trouble linking other pages with this article and really don't wanna change the name now.
I see your point tho.  The war began and ended with Ahmad Gragn.  But the Adal (it's a people as well as a sultanate) were the driving force in the fight.  They had revolted against Ethiopia before.  Ahmad Gran just made them successful.  
 
On another note, 'm glad some1 has access to a book about this conflict cuz my personal library has virtualy nothing on the subject.  I went with Abyssinian-Adal War or Ethiopian-Adal War to keep with naming traditions of other conflicts. I think we may need a redirect from the name u suggested tho. In terms of framing the conflict, pretty much all muslim rulers look at conflicts as "Believers" against "Infidels" during this period. That's propaganda 101. They used this terminology even against other muslim states. let me know what u think.  hopefully some other folks will get involved and we can have a proper vote (and a proper page, lol) on this subject.Scott Free 20:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I admit that finding information about this period in history is difficult. For example, the Futuh al-habasa was only available in a French translation from the late 19th century until a few years ago, when Paul Stenhouse published his English translation; however, this book takes things only up to the middle of the invasion. Then there are the two sources that R.S. Whiteway translated back in 1902 -- fortunately, you can obtain an electronic copy of this work in PDF format thru Google books. (More details at Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi and Dawit II of Ethiopia.) I've been slow in working on this due to inherent nature of working with primary sources: ignore the original research concerns, constructing a coherent narrative from primary sources is much like assembling a jigsaw puzzle, only you never know if you have all of the pieces! As for secondary sources, most of the ones I've found cover the 14 years at most a page or two, & often fail to have adequate access to all of the primary sources. Then there is the nationalist angle, e.g. was the Imam Ahmad Gragn a Somali? It's a tough topic, & not for the timid; I only wish I were less timid. ;-) llywrch 18:39, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually have a copy of Pankhurst's translation of the Futuh although it's at home and not accessible to me right now, though I'm sure my library has a copy, so I'll work on this article when I can, but it'll have to be very infrequently. You should check out Pankhurst's Ethiopian borderlands, though, Llywrch. It covers the period covered by the Futuh with respective to the outlying provinces (basically all of the first years) extensively, which can help set up a basic chronology, although won't help that much in precise dates, strategies, attacks, etc. For that, you may try it's entry (I think under Ahmed Gragn) in the Encyclopaedia Aethiopica. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 19:10, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

text: You guys rock!  Thnx for putting those sources out there.  i found an english translation of the Futuh al-habasa on amazon.com so i'll see if i can get my hands on it.Scott Free 19:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: War

message: Since every1's so interested in the name of this conflict, can we please get some contribs on the ACTUAL WAR?Scott Free 12:28, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: thnx. of course it needs filling out and im not sure about all the fact but at least its something. you've done a lot more than us. :) Scott Free 20:05, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  HELP 

message: Adal Sultanate occupied Ethiopia for 7 years or so. The emperor was on the run just like he was during the Second Italo-Abyssinian War. The article at the moment makes it seem like there was continues war for decades when thats not true. Im not sure how to go about reworking the article yet. Zekenyan (talk) 10:12, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article is wrong 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Abyssinian–Adal war. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080228080936/http://130.238.24.99/library/resources/dossiers/local_history_of_ethiopia/A/ORTAST.pdf to http://130.238.24.99/library/resources/dossiers/local_history_of_ethiopia/A/ORTAST.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:13, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Mogadishu Sultanate ended in the 13th century and the city Mogadishu was Ajuran capital since the 13th century while Abyssinian–Adal war was in the 16th century. You didn't even provide a source but a book with no references at all.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miledisco (talk • contribs) 11:59, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Mogadishu Sultanate

message: Muslim Abyssinians also fought for their country the most notable being Ras Eslamu(the muslim) who was governor of Feteger province. However you hear many Ethiopian muslims(even Tigrayan and Amharan muslims)trying to make al-ghazi their hero not knowing that their ancestors fought lifting the green,gold and red. Reporter104 (talk) 13:18, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muslim Abyssinians 

message: User:Ayaltimo the source you're using is a wikipedia mirror , you've edit warred with multiple people on multiple pages even breaking 3rr so im going to have to report you. Magherbin (talk) 03:02, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not a Wikipedia mirror and this is written by an Ethiopian historian so there is no biased going on here and his books are clearly referenced. You said the source doesn't mention Afar and Harari contribution when it does clearly. Funny how you say I am edit warring on multiple pages when you're doing the same thing from Zeila page while I was simply reverting unsourced additions from a sock and you're doing the same thing by changing it to Adal forces when the source I posted says Somali forces. The fact is the overwhelming majority of Adal forces were Somali and I can post multiple references. Ayaltimo (talk)  3:12, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Where does it mention Afar or Harari in the source? Patrick makes no mention of that, I suggest you read it. The "Ethiopian historian" copied wikipedia word for word hence not reliable. Magherbin (talk) 03:21, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Magherbin It does actually when you read Adal ethnicity and mentions Afar warriors but since it's a new source I've reverted it back to your edit. Ayaltimo (talk)  3:25, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I honestly dont know what page you're looking at, this page does not even have an ethnicity section. I suggest you make yourself familiar with how to edit wikipedia before becoming an active member. Read this WP:FORK. Magherbin (talk) 03:43, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just read the book and thanks but just one quick piece of advice. Please don't engage in edit warring that's not how you win. A simple discussion on the talk page helps instead of editing it your way without consulting me or other users you decide to engage with. What I did was good faith and maybe you should try that in the future. Ayaltimo (talk)  4:12, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia Mirror 

message: The medieval Ethiopia went through many phase eventually becoming the "Rastafarian Movement"; their "Adal" adversaries went through many phase becoming the "Dervish Movement", which was most likely manned by ethnic "Afar" warriors. 137.59.221.36 (talk) 20:19, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regional status comparison 

message: This war caused the Ethiopia aristocrat mainly a Christian people to move northwards.
There are strategic depictions of the battles available for further pages.
Medieval Ethiopia nearly survived that conflict with the Adal. 137.59.221.36 (talk) 20:47, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  history and reality 

message: Adal Sultanate existed in what we now call "Somaliland".
It seems Somaliland was a major adversary to Ethiopia. 137.59.221.36 (talk) 15:41, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adal origins in Somaliland 

message: "Adal Sultanate" that originated in Somaliland became the adversary to Ethiopia.
Today "Ethiopia" is considered as a country, while "Somaliland" a pariah and a "failed state".
For some reasons the warriors of "Adal Sultanate" (originating from Somaliland) seem to have a strategic advantage over Ethiopia.
Ancient manuscripts indicate a major conflict where two different civilization are at clash. 137.59.221.36 (talk) 15:48, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  power struggle 

message: Medieval "Ethiopia" ancient rivals came from "Somaliland" which we consider to be a runaway part of "Somalia proper".
Adal Sultanate was based in "Somaliland". 137.59.221.36 (talk) 15:50, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Somaliland theory 

message: The way i see that the Ottomans werent diectly involved in this campaign, they only supplied the Adal sultanate with their weapons and with some mercenaries. I think we must change their involment by chancing their position like Funj Sultanate(Supported by section).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nazmi32 (talk • contribs) 07:54, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The Funj weren't involved in the conflict as they only paid a tribute to the Abyssinian emperor in fear of an invasion by the latter fater the islamization and arabization of Nubia. This occurred prior to the war betweeen them and Adal, and would continue after (see the tribute given by Sennar to the Gondarian emperor Fasilides). The Ottomans, however, gave the Adal the crucial aid the required to succeed against the Abyssinians in their initial military encounter and sent more aid after the Portuguese entry into the theater. Not only did they send guns but personnel of Turkish and Arab origin. BeteAmora (talk) 05:21, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question About the Ottomans 

message: Would the current flag chosen to represent the Ottoman empire and their Arab vassals be historically accurate to the time period and region this event occurred in? The files are labeled with the flags having been from the 16th century, and it's likely the Ottomans deployed a number of flags, but confirmation is needed.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by BeteAmora (talk • contribs) 05:17, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag 

message: The conflict between the Christian Solomonic Ethiopian Empire and the neighboring Adal Sultanate is known to have been rooted in the conflict between Abyssinia and the earlier Ifat sultanate. That is to say, it was not sparked by the invasion of Hadiya by Zara Yaqob and his marriage to the princess, Eleni. Neither was it caused by Dawit II's earlier defeat of Mafhuz and sack of Zeila. Amde Seyons conflict with Ifat culminated in the conquest of Zeila and exile of the Walashma Dynasty to Yemen after their defeat by either Dawit I or Yishaq I, after which they would found the Adal Sultanate and continue the war of their predecessors. This is both well known and historically accurate information, and without knowledge of it you can not properly understand theater conflict between Adal and Abyssinia.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:280:CB02:100C:3860:2069:DE2B:3B04 (talk) 16:52, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: There's only one problem with your statement the Ethiopian-Adal war was not started by a member of the Walasma infact the Walasma Sultan opposed this war which led to the execution of Sultan Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad. When discussing a subject in an article we stick with the topic at hand, I know the article isnt up to par right now but Adal Sultanate is a 14th century state which means Zara Yacob's expansion into Hadiya is relevant, Amda Seyon's expansion into Ifat Sultanate in the 13th century is not. Walasma family who were part of the old Ifat state had essentially given up on invasions of Ethiopia after their failed attempt at the Battle of Gomit. The statemen holding the title Imam who were not part of the walasma were successful hence there was a power struggle within Adal itself. Ethiopian Adal war was a result of a fallen Imam named Mahfuz the father in law of the leader of Adal during the Ethiopian Adal war, this was personal and not related to Walasma. Read a brief summary of this here  Magherbin (talk) 21:59, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Background 

message: The Ethiopian state was briefly annexed by Adal Sultanate however the article appears to make it seem like it was a border conflict. Another article or rewriting this might be needed. Magherbin (talk) 12:05, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article is improper 

message: User:Lostglowlight982, you reverted with no explanation at all, its well known the Oromo invaded Adal they were not part of the Adal army nor allies of Adal until perhaps after this war. One of the sources is published by lulu.com which is not reliable its self published, the second source states some defeated oromo fought with Adal, which is possible it happens in wars, it doesnt mean they were Adalites. Warra Sheikh were not originally Oromo hence this isnt a good example. Provide more references indicating that Oromo fought on both sides and we can include it somewhere in the article however including Oromo as "Adal forces" is inaccurate, Oromo involvement is a fringe theory in my books. If you cant provide references, I would like for you to self revert thanks. Magherbin (talk) 21:16, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I cited my sources which clearly back my claim. Mohammed Kheir directly points out that the Oromo along with the Belew Afar,Somali, and Harla fought in the Jihad of Ahmed Gragn. Also Mohammed Hassen goes out to say that the Oromo had took part and were on both sides, most of the Oromo Christians were assimilated by Amharas and the Oromo Muslims were obviously fighting alongside the Imam. Also where did you get "Warra sheik" from nevertheless the Warra shiek are Oromos and I think you've got them confused with the Qallu who alongwith the Somali Sheekal, and the Harari's share a mixed Oromo-arab lineage along with the Sheekal and Hararis who are also the children of Sheikh Abadir. Anyway thanks. Lostglowlight982( (talk)  — Preceding undated comment added 07:12, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  We are not here to discuss Arab origin fairytales about Abadir and i've never heard of Qallu being "children of Abadir" anyway only the Sheekhal, i'm referring to Warra Sheikh not Qallu, the Oromo entered the awash and settled there after this war, I would like you to refer to the Oromo invasion article or read this source  Aside from myths and misconception the Oromo invaded the territory following this conflict. Kheir's book is self published hence not reliable especially for a fringe claim such as that Oromo were part of the Adal Sultanate. Get consensus for your edits dont revert again. Magherbin (talk) 23:48, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

text: Mohammed Hassen doesnt state Oromo were Adalites infact if you read his journal entries he states the following: "The peoples of Adal included the Afar, Somali, the Adare (Hararis) the HarIa, Argobo and Warjih" on p,198 . Mind you this is an outdated opinion itself as recent academics only state the Harla were Adalites and the rest were migrants but we know for sure the above mentioned groups fought under the Adal banner however the Oromo did not. The claim of his that some Oromo fought alongside the Adal state is another matter which is a fringe theory anyway. Magherbin (talk) 06:59, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

text: Oromo invaded the region of Adal in the sixteenth century right after this war, this is well documented not just by Ethiopians but also Adalites, see p.93-94 . Oromo were an animist group that werent even Muslims until after the 16th century however the article you're working on claims (Draft:Afran Qallo (Clan)) Oromo were "one of the first to accept Islam in the Harar region" which is preposterous. Adal built a wall in the sixteenth century at its capital in Harar due to the Oromo invasion. . You only provided one reliable source thats why its fringe theory, when content is flagged as fringe you provide more sources and you have not done that at all. Infact that source you cited on p.122 doesnt even mention Oromo were part of Adal, it states Adal invaded Oromia so how does that prove your point here? Its a fringe theory by an Oromo author trying to dismiss a mainstream view in the academic world which asserts the Oromo invasion occurred in the horn of Africa, see the description of the book  We dont just take a look at bias sources and then include content here thats not how it works. We can ask for a third opinion, if you're not convinced here. Magherbin (talk) 10:14, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

text: The claim Oromo predate Amhara and other groups is a fringe theory, its interesting that you only mention semitic groups on this talk page but your article states even cushitic groups such as Somali took Oromo territory "Cerulli suggest that due to constant pressure from migrating Isaaq,Darood, and Dir clans the eastern Oromo had started migrating from Somaliland in the 10th century and had fully completed their migration in the 15th century." see Draft:Afran Qallo (Clan). Somalis predate Oromo in the region they were found as far as the Awash river, it was the Oromo who assimilated their people. It is not a specific authors views but the Barento Oromo themselves that make the claim you can read about this on p.28  The established fact is the Oromo invaded the horn from a small area somewhere in the south in the sixteenth century prior to this they were not mentioned in texts. As I said Ujula Tesso Benti and Beekan Erena from link 8 are trying to change the mainstream view, they clearly state that their views are not mainstream, hence they're not good examples. A proper encyclopedia doesnt give undue weight to fringe theories, its brief it doesnt mention wild claims of ancient Kingdom of Aksum inhabited Oromo (even if there is sources for it since you can literally find sources for any claim but this doesnt make it mainstream or true). Read for example Britannica's entry on Oromo . If my argument doesnt convince you, I would like a 2nd opinion on the matter from a neutral editor. Magherbin (talk) 00:17, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

text: Encyclopædia Britannica is very reliable and your claims that the mainstream view regarding the Oromo invasion/migration never occurred is the issue here. Now when the Ethiopian and Adal records both state Oromo were invaders of the 16th century, I tend to believe them since they have no reason to fabricate and be apart of a grandeur conspiracy against the Oromo as Ethio-Adalites were at war infact the majority of the conflicts between them came to a halt mostly due to the Oromo invasions. The Oromo viewpoint is irrelevant, nomads largely didnt have writing traditions to record their own invasion of static states. For example there is Roman records of Germanic peoples invasions but none from the German side. I'm not responding to the other things you've said here since its outside the scope of the edit. Magherbin (talk) 09:41, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

text: Alexander Bulatovich is not a historian, request a third opinion like I said before you can find questionable references that is abundant but this isnt a mainstream view. Adal is not an "Afar" kingdom either there's so many things wrong with that reference you provided. On p.171 it states " According to oral tales the Saho were affiliated to the Afar kingdom of Adal and struggled against the Christian expansion, and denomination in the horn of Africa together with ther Somali, and Oromo warriors.  This is an outdated opinion regarding Afar, the Oromo are responsible for the decline of Adal yet you're referencing claims they were part of the state and made up a majority, this is a fringe view. Oromo expanded after the defeat of Adal you can read a brief summary from oxford . Magherbin (talk) 15:50, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oromo involvement in Adal? 

message: Harari Peoples are not mentioned a single time in the Futuh al Habash. Nor are Agrobba while Afar are only mentioned in passing when the Imams army encamps in their region. Somalis are the most prominent group (mentioned most by a wide margin), with Harla also mentioned. Also where does the idea that Harari people (who are never mentioned in the chronicle) made up the ruling class come from? There is no historical evidence to back this up aside from author conjecture and speculation. Harari people don't even claim descent from Harla peoples. Meanwhile Harla claim descent from Sheikh Darod according to themselves, heres the source: http://www.islhornafr.eu/ReportAwsa2017.pdf 
 If anyone can explain why Harari are constanly mentioned in articles relating to Adal or Walashma that would be appreciated. TriSolar (talk) 01:07, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The sub clans of Harari are mentioned in the Futuh for example Gaturi and the ruling class were semitic speakers there's numerous references for this here is one . I think the Harari do claim to originate from Harla you can refer to p.29 . Harla were a vast people some of them claimed descent from Jabarti (darod) and others didnt. By your analogy the Somalis are all from Sheikh Darod as well. We state what the references include and Argobba/Afar are mentioned as part of Adal, if you would like to know about the inhabitants of Adal you can refer to p.198  Magherbin (talk) 17:47, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Afar may have lived within the borders of Adal, but their inclusion in the actual conflict is unknown as zero contemporary sources list them among the fighters. The existence of Dankali to the north was well known and if the they were in fact fighters, Arab Faqih would have stated so. To say they were among the coalition is unfounded and based in speculation. The hard fact remains that majority of the participants in this war were Somalis. Also the Gaturi being a Harari subclan is also unfounded as the Futuh mentions “Gutur” as a land and one man named “al-Guturi”. If anything the Guturi predate Harari peoples by centuries. Either way Harari are never mentioned nor are any Agrobba. We deal with hard facts and the best sources we have are the contemporary accounts. Also the leadership being Harari? Besides the fact that the first mention of Harari peoples is after the war, Arab Faqih does not state this at all. TriSolar (talk) 18:00, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

text: Hey, also could you provide the passage where they state that the ruling dynasty was Harari and the evidence they used to achieve this claim. Thanks TriSolar (talk) 18:05, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Somalis were largely not involved with Adal's center, infact most of the territories they were able to acquire is post Adal periods therefore Somalis actually benefited from the collapse of Adal. I agree with Argobba and Afar playing minor roles though. Can you explain Enrico Cerulli discussing Harari forces during Adal-Ethiopian battles? This is found on p.376-377 . Adal's formation is based on militant Muslims of the interior in Ifat who had escaped after the Abyssinian annexation of their territory they were instrumental in organizing a resistance to Christian expansionism, you can refer to p.147-150 from Cambridge . Magherbin (talk) 18:25, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The Awash River valley, which the Adalites called “The Great Dir River” was inhabited by Somali clans which predated the sultanates formation. Moreover the major port city and once capital of the Ifat and Adal sultanates and earlier Awdal Kingdom (as attested to by Al Yaqubi in the 9th century) Zeila has always been predominantly Somali. Ibn Said and Ibn Batutta have confirmed this. Moreover the term Adal or Awdal is the native Somali term for the region and is still used today. Adal was formed from the remnants of the Walashma dynasty (who themselves trace their lineage to the 10th century Somali Yusuf bin Ahmad Al kowneyn and to the same Aqil ibn Abi Talib that most Somali clans trace their lineage to paternally according to the Book to the Walashma and the Harar manuscripts). Somalis were a major presence in these lands and are today as well. There is a reason they are the single most mentioned group in the Futuh Al-Habash. On the topic of Harari fighters, I think the somewhat similar names of Harla and Harari and the importance of the city of Harar has led some scholars to assume the Harari were present in the conflict. The fact remains however that the first mention of Harari occurs after the war and Arab Faqih never mentions them once. TriSolar (talk) 18:36, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  The capital of Adal during this period was located in Harar and prior to that it was around that modern city refer to p.264 . To assume then that it was simply a coincidence is farfetched I think i've discussed this elsewhere but the saints are not locals, they are stated to have arrived from Arabia. Major presence doesnt usually always indicate leadership in the region especially if said ethnic group were largely nomadic. These arent "some" scholars its the majority of Ethiopian/Western academics including Taddesse Tamrat and Richard Pankhusrt, therefore we cant simply ignore them. Magherbin (talk) 18:56, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Mate look at the cities and populations around Harar. They are mostly Somali especially to the northeast and southeast. They are many towns surrounding modern day Harar literally name Hawiya or some other variation of the word. Somalis outnumber every ethnic group in the former lands of Adal (maybe Oromo come close but we know they arrived much later). Also the nomadic argument is moot. It means nothing that a population maybe nomadic predominantly. Settled somali populations have existed in the region for millenia. Also the city of Harar predated any mention of the ethnic group. TriSolar (talk) 19:02, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

text: Also the legendary saints being form Arabia is just that, legends. Most scholars agree they were natives. Legendary genealogical traditions that tie populations back to the family of the Islamic Propher Muhammad are very common but have almost no basis in reality. TriSolar (talk) 19:05, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  This discussion is not about the demographics of the area in 2023, if you're using that as an argument then Oromo were also Adalites. Read Mohammed Hassan on the composition of Ahmed's army "Arab Faqih makes it very clear that the sedentary agriculturalists population of Harar provided both the leadership in the jihadic war and that they were the majority of the fighters at least during the early days of the jihad. All the four Wazirs appointed by Imam Ahmad were members of the landed Adare (Harari) and Harla hereditary nobility. Of the fifty or so Amirs appointed by Imam Ahmad between 1527 and 1537, the overwhelming majority were members of the hereditary landed Adare or Harla aristocracy" on p.179 . Therefore I do not agree with the changes you've made, you should try to gain consensus on the talk page first. Magherbin (talk) 19:14, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: How does Arab Faqih make that clear? Please elaborate because a reading of Futuh Al-Habash makes no claims like that. TriSolar (talk) 19:16, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

text: Arab Faqih never mentions Harari people once and mentions the Harla 11 times. How does one come to that conclusion? It’s almost laughable. TriSolar (talk) 19:17, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Harla language itself is believed to be closely related to modern Harari language. If you find it laughable I advise you write a journal entry if you're an expert in this field and tell us why, until then we will not include your opinion on the matter. Magherbin (talk) 19:30, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You never answered my question. Moreover all we really know about the Harla language is that it was Afroasiatic. Whether it was Semitic or Cushitic is unknown. TriSolar (talk) 19:32, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  We dont want to side track on this and would like to focus on your edits on the article. Somalis only made up a fraction of the army not majority you can refer to Amelie Chekroun p.17  Magherbin (talk) 17:54, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Odd considering their major involvements in every conflict the Adal ever fought in against the Ethiopians. Zara Yaqob even mentions in the Meshafe Milad the Adalites allying with Mogadishu (Meqdush) against them and Yeshaq as well. And once again they’re by far the most mentioned group in the Futuh al Habash (our best source on the conflict). I’m not sure why this bothers you? The vast majority of scholars agree with this. TriSolar (talk) 18:01, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  Unrelated to any of the edit you've made, you seem to just want to ignore references. Magherbin (talk) 18:03, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to want to ignore them as well. I’m not randomly making edits without sources. Do we both agree that the Harla and Somalis were the predominant groups partaking in the conflict. If so then the article is fine as is. TriSolar (talk) 18:05, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I didnt ignore them you're using old references and i've told you that they've changed. Magherbin (talk) 18:07, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean theyve changed. Did the Futuh al Habash get a revision or something. Why does our best source on the conflict support the stance that the army was predominantly Somali and Harla. What new evidence arose that supersedes the Futuh as our best source on the conflict. Is there another document from the time I’m unaware of? TriSolar (talk) 18:12, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article states that I think we are done here. Magherbin (talk) 18:17, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Master of deflection. Keep running from what’s legitimate and clinging to your fringe theories. I agree that we’re done here. TriSolar (talk) 18:22, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

text: Hey ignore my last comment. The article can stay as is. But why “or” when we know it’s was both as the predominant groups? TriSolar (talk) 18:25, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The inclusion of Harari, Agrobba and Afar as participants in the conflict 

message: The Adalite invasion of Ethiopia was purely a religious war it was not an ethnic war, I understand that those groups listed played an important role and all (some more then others) but adding them in the main body paragraph could give readers the wrong idea about this conflict. Also if you're going to list all of the ethnic groups who participated in this war then you might aswell go the full way too, because Futuh al-Habesh mentions a group of Moroccans who fought for the Imam, also Jewish Ethiopians who sided with the Muslims against the Christians when they reach Begemeder, there was also pagans from Damot and Gafat who sided with the Ethiopians and were mentioned as fighting against the Adalites, there's also some sources floating around of Oromos partaking in this war aswell. It also should be mentioned that a significant number of Abyssinians converted to Islam and joined the Imam's forces. Also Arab Faqih mentions a number of Arabs who converted to Christianity and joined the Ethiopians at the seige of Amba Gashen, etc these are just the top of my head, the number of ethnic groups who fought in this war is countless so it doesn't make sense to add every ethnic group who fought in this war in the main body of the article. محرر البوق (talk) 18:47, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic POV pushing in the article 

message: Mind telling me what page in  "Wars in the Horn of Africa and the dismantling of the Somali State" supports your latest revisions in the strength infobox ??? @Ezra Ben Yosef @Reunion Yubudirsi (talk) 20:41, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, I don’t think you mean me, I reversed the numbers in the first place. I did not read the book nor did I add any numbers of my own. I simply reverted the edit in the first place because it was sourcing numbers, then realized it was an incorrect edit and reverted all of it. This should be taken up with Ezra instead. Thank you. Réunion! 23:11, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, thanks for your answer. Yubudirsi (talk) 23:09, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @Yubudirsi Did you add this figure into the infobox? I could not find any mention of 50,000 Adalite men in the Futuh, nor could I find any mention of 900,000 Abyssinians in Pankhurst' work. I believe that the figure of the latter came from this work The Tragedy of Emperor Libne-Dingil, a manuscript based on oral traditions written by Oromo monks in the 1930s. In the same source it also makes the laughable claim that Imam Ahmad was the son of a murdered Christian monk and that he invaded Ethiopia to avenge his father. This is obviously a fringe source, don't add these figures into the infobox. Socialwave597 (talk) 21:36, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strength (Infobox)