Talk:Alexandru Nicolschi

message: I like Marius Oprea and all (btw, we should have an article on him in the future), but a link titled "Let's piss on their graves" has a major problem, no matter how preciously detailed and impartial its content actually is. I'm afraid we'll have to compensate by tapping into other resources. Dahn 03:59, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure who he is, but I found his article quite informative.  And, yes, it took me a while to understand what the title meant (the diacritics were mangled) -- I shied away from translating it.  On the other hand, what he's talking about can elicit strong reactions (yes?). Actually, this reminds me of the tile of a novel, J'irai cracher sur vos tombes, by Boris Vian...   Turgidson 04:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I found an article where all the information on his biography is backed, although not in as many details. Don't get me wrong, Oprea's is informative, but we can avoid the entire potential debate by simply not linking it (it did bring Vian to my mind as well...); I'm guessing that, in case Oprea were a witness to the events or a victim, the title would not pose as much problems. Btw, I'll b removing the reference to his book in the process, as we should not reference what we have not consulted. Dahn 04:32, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

text: (I propose dropping references to alternative or original names of persons other than Nicolski himself in the article, as they would be clarified in the respective articles - despite the fact that a large number of sources still mention "Pintilie" by his original name, we shpuld stick with what he chose for himself; this also spares us the potential trouble of whether to transliterate it from Ukrainian or from Russian, which is a big deal for similar cases on wikipedia... don't ask...) Dahn 04:36, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, Oprea's online article is not up to standards -- if nothing else, the typography is atrocious. But the facts appear to be rather coherently presented, and most likely true, especially when most were backed up by other sources.  (In the meantime, I also looked at the Tismaneanu report, and it all gibes). My hunch is that Oprea's article is a (rather poorly executed) cut-and-paste from his book.  But unfortunately, as you guessed, I could not access his book, so I only mentioned it as an external source (the book was mentioned in other places, too.)  At any rate, good point -- better to leave it out till someone can actually check it. As for the transliterations, I wasn't aware of the potential trouble (it's also done on the Securitate page).  The main reason I wanted to have the alternate names was to make it possible to quote Corvin Lupu, who only mentions the names those people had at birth.  This issue will keep posing a problem, looks like, but not insurmountable. Turgidson 05:09, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe we should have an article under "Pintilie", and redirect all versions to there,which should leave us with a neutral result. Of course, all of this is in the future - I have a limit of one torturer per day, as I actually want to avoid having nightmares about them :). I admit I have not looked into the Securitate article, but I'm betting it is full of errors and POVs (IMO, refrencing the "foreign names" ad nauseam is a side effect of the xenophobia that has sadly triumphed on Romanian wikipedia... it really serves no academic purpose). Dahn 05:32, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

text: (For direct quotes with ambiguous potential, might I suggest turning "blah blah blah Pantelimon Bodnarenko blah blah" into "blah blah blah [Gheorghe Pintilie] blah blah"?) Dahn 05:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, wow!  Article looks very thorough and researched to me (I wish I had all those books to consult, too -- sigh...).  As for the plan with the naming conventions, sounds good to me. Generally speaking, one refers to public figures (including writers, actors, whatever) by their professional/adopted names, not by the names they carried at birth, as long as the chosen names are well-established. One little thing:  I put the Lupu reference since I did not have many sources available (eg, to confirm Nicholschi's birth name).  But now with all the other detailed sources you quoted, it may not be necessary to include this article?  I still found it rather informative as general background on some aspects of the era, maybe it can be put to better use as a reference in another article?  Turgidson 13:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I'm afraid I hadn't looked through the article in question, and, having done so, I find it to be below the quality expected from a source. It is also spurious. Yes, I will remove it, and, hopefully, we will not be debating whether to source it on other pages. I see, for example that it is branded as negationist by Lupu's peers, and I fully agree with the assessment. Dahn 14:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Allright.  Sorry for not reading the article more carefully before referring to it.  I was in a bit of hurry to get the Nicholschi article off the ground, and it's not so easy to wade through the mass of data from the internet, a lot of which is ob dubious quality or reliability.  Turgidson 15:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see. No problem. Dahn 15:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Initial discussion about Marius Oprea 

message: There is this one user called Dahn who systematically removes all my contributions. He gives no explanation for this. I feel persecuted like poor political prisoners must have felt under Nikolski. Still, I would like all other users who notice this behavior to report it so that momentum grows against this disruptive user. (Icar 13:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This post and your last edit summary show that, despite my repeated calls for you to stop, you continue to mudsling. You have moved beyond uncivilized behavior, and are currently irreconcilable with basic rules regarding human interaction. As I have said, I will call for intervention later today, and I hope you'll finally be moved into the pen where they keep trolls like you. Dahn 14:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't understand how Dahn is still allowed to do this, a simple correction in Securitate page was a huge uphill battle, everyone could see that the end result of what I proposed was more clear and more accurate, however I had to lose a lot of time to discuss that change with Dahn and he accused me of trolling and other things. Even on this page a 2 words change in article that was supported by other person too has attracted accusation from Dahn against me and comments like "it's not even worthy to read what you wrote". Why this self-righteous person is allowed to continue with such impunity and continue to threaten and bully other people is beyond my understanding. -- AdrianTM 14:33, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Using something that's technically "correct" but 100% misleading is an art. (responded in a more detailed manner in your page)   -- AdrianTM 16:41, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Producing such a fallacious argument is the actual art. Dahn 22:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  User Dahn is becoming a pest 

message: User:Khoikhoi is a staunch supporter of User:Dahn. There seems to be mutual support between them, what I would call a Wiki-cartel of sorts. The technique is simple but dishonest: Khoi reverts when Dahn is tired. Today Dahn reverted 3 times so he gently asked Khoi to step in. As a result, Khoi reverted without any explanation. Very polite indeed. Dahn's goal, towards which Khoi contributes, is to somehow call "Romanian" a foreign ennemy who contributed greatly to the extermination of 10% of Romania's population. (Icar 21:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dahn has an unconditional admirer 

message: Now that I understand better Dahn's goal of tarnishing the image of Romania and its people, it makes sense why he tried to convince other editors to drop the non-Romanian names of the NKVD founders of the Securitate. His argmuent ("let them have the names they chose for themselves") is fallacious: there exist legal procedures for changing one's name but I have not seen any hint that they were followed by Grunberg, Bodnarenko or Mazurov. Also these were occupation agents, not normal people. Dropping the true name is intentionally misleading. At some point in their lives, these foreigners chose Romanian names because they were sent to Romania by the NKVD, but it could have been Polish or Czech names if the mission were in those countries. All that mattered (like for Dahn today) was to hide their true identity for the success of their mission. I propose to emphasize these names and refer to the "romanized" versions Nicolschi and Pintilie as conspirative names, sort of spy games. (Icar 07:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please let the guy be. Anyway the issue is interesting, it would be interesting to find out if they changed their name legally. -- AdrianTM 08:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, by all means: provide us with a source saying that they didn't. Dahn 09:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue raised by Icar is interesting and I cannot but follow AdrianTM’s suggestion of searching what the legal status of his Romanian name was. I have however some problems with your argumentation style, Icar. You are making imprudent allegations, like those claiming that Dahn has a goal of “tarnishing the image of Romania and its people”.  Honestly, I don’t know if he has such an explicit goal, though I could guess a certain idiosyncrasy to displayed Romanianism. Even if it’s true and he really has this goal in mind, you shouldn’t accuse him of that. It’s simply not politically correct. Never forget NPOV, NPA, never forget that you are here on Anglo-Saxon cultural territory. BTW, phrases like “tarnishing the image of Romania and its people” read at least naïve if not primitive against the background I’ve just mentioned. Such a discourse makes you and others editors vulnerable. Don’t let you become a target of ironies and be depicted as a primitive Romanian nationalist. I understand very well that this is far of being true, but don’t provide ammunitions to get shot. Wikipedia says to assume good faith, I ‘d add, yes, but be prepared for the worst faith.   --Vintila Barbu 09:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

text: In this case it's not "Romanization" since the name is Russian and was done to hide his origin and mission, it does look fraudulent according to his own confessions (my translation):  from here I don't know why authorities kept calling him that way... maybe this is just a case of using a nickname or name under which a person is usually known, or maybe they didn't know any better which doesn't make it less fraudulent. -- AdrianTM 13:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fraudulent "Romanization" of names 

message: to our new guest-editors  Domitius and  Mardavich !
In the last 12 hours, users  Domitius and  Mardavich joined Khoikhoi in reverting edits on this article. 
I cannot but welcome the sudden interest for this very marginal Romanian article shown by users well-known for their valuable contributions on Oriental topics and who never before contributed to any Romanian topic. 
Strangely, the same phenomenon happens in Leonte Tismăneanu, where a distinguished  user Artaxiad seems to discover that article, making uncommented reverts. 
It appears that a group of users around Khoikhoi is willing to help in articles where Dahn is very active.
 
A cordial welcome to any new editor ! However, let me remind you, that uncommented reverts are to be undone at sight. If our new co-editors really wish to help, they should first expose their points on the talk page, join our editing community, learn and confront with our difficulties and dilemmas and than, of course, edit, creating content, not just reverting.
I look forward to a fruitful teamwork alongside our new co-editors.
--Vintila Barbu 11:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Very good news indeed! The authoritative Domitius and Mardavich joined our humble efforts in this obscure corner of the English WP. We expect their contributions to bring essential improvement to this article. (Icar 13:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Me too, I'd apprecate if they would document their edits though.    -- AdrianTM 15:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wonder if collective "hit and run" edits made with the obvious intention of avoiding 3RR rule and “winning” edit wars, fall under the incidence of any WP norms. Could someone check ? What is troubling, is the collective and organized character of this action. As long as "edit wars" take place between normal editors engaged in working on an article, this is regrettable but understandable. However, if things really are what they seem to be, here we have to do with organized collective action aimed at undermining the very spirit of Wikipedia. Alarming for me is the mentality behind this, which evokes what Romanian criminalists call “rezoluţie infracţională” and their German colleagues call “kriminelle Energie”. I don’t know the English word for this.--Vintila Barbu 15:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure this is a very popular article in English Wikipedia therefore we'll see this kind of edits from people who were not active before, and by the way, I assume they are all Romanians (just like Nicolschi) -- AdrianTM 16:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Very Sincere Welcome 

message: It appears without possible doubt that the lead is misleading (no pun intended) and that the version pushed by User:Dahn is unacceptable manipulation. The discussion was carried with manifest bad faith by User:Dahn, who seems to be in denial when proofs are presented. This is a severe case of a clique formed around one editor, helping him to push nonsense info on WP. Icar 13:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's also telling that the protected variant was always the one promoted by User:Dahn. -- AdrianTM 20:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead 

message: It seems there are irreconciliable differences between one editor User:Dahn and the rest of the editors. This may be only one impression, as some other editors have reverted for User:Dahn, however their ability of understanding the issues is questionable. It seems to me more like bad wiki practices. 
In any case, the article as such has a few problems reflected in this talk page. 
I calim that the lead is false and misleading by presenting Nicolschi first as "Romanian". Let us call a vote on this. Icar 20:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vote 

message: I'm sorry to see how much time and energy is spent on arguing about a few words in this article, especially when there are so many (related) articles that are in dire need of attention.  (For example, Soviet occupation of Romania#Reorganization of the security services could use some expansion.)  I'm not sure whether I can do anything to help improve the situation, but let me go ahead with a small change, that hopefully will help clear up the air.  Namely, I added a category here (NKVD), which I think is appropriate -- after all, everybody agrees A.N. was affiliated with the NKVD at some point in his career, yes?  As far I understand, some of the differing opinions are as to what exact rank he achieved when in which of the various Soviet intelligence agencies, and to what extent those functions overshadowed (or trumped?) the functions he had in the Securitate. Although I can see pros and cons on various sides (I'm not at all dogmatic about this), I'm afraid I can't answer those questions with any degree of certainty beyond what's in the article already.  Perhaps the best would be to come up with new sources, that somehow could shed new light on this topic?  Absent such new sources, I'd say let's just go with the default solution (Occam's razor!) -- which seems to be Dahn's version, since he has been the main contributor to this article (though I've done my bit at various junctures, too) -- and move on.  Sounds reasonable?  Turgidson 17:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, how about starting an article on Vladimir Mazuru?  After all, he was the other deputy chief of the Securitate at its inception -- there are all sorts of redlinks pointing to that (still virtual) page, may as well turn them into bluelinks.  Anyone willing to give it a shot?  Turgidson 19:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NKVD

message: I wonder whether that paragraph (based on a discussion from Deletant's book) could be set out separately.  Previously, the article ended with the retirement of A.N. as part of the nomenklatura, and his death, just before he could be brought to justice for his role in the violent political repression of the 1940s and 1950s, and face some of the survivors of his actions.  Now, that ending no longer stands out -- it is somewhat overtaken by this discussion of A.N.'s ethnicity in the last paragraph.  While that's of some relevance, I still view it as a side issue compared to the magnitude of the events discussed in this article (founding of the Securitate, the Piteşti experiment, the Canal, etc), in which A.N. had a direct hand.  So what I propose is to create a new section at the end (as is the case in many biographies I've seen on WP) about legacy, ongoing controversies, etc. In other words, let the past be with the past, and the present with the present ("morţii cu morţii, viii cu viii", as they say).  Turgidson 14:06, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I agree. For now, I thought I could just tie it to what is already there, since I'd rather merge than have small separate sections (since I cannot figure out what else would go in such a section). I also do not know what title works best. So, Turgidson, please feel free to make the change as you see fit. Dahn 19:15, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not sure what an appropriate heading would be -- perhaps "Controversies"?  On the other hand, maybe it would be better to have this discussion on the main page for the Securitate, an not repeat it (except perhaps briefly) for Pantiuşa, Nicolschi, Mazuru, and all the  other gentlemen of said organization?  While at it, it would seem appropriate to bring other points of view (and citations) for this, not just Deletant's.  By the way, I don't think this kind of controversy is just about the Securitate, in the Romanian context.  Indeed, similar controversies have been going on for decades about the origins of the Cheka, OGPU, and NKVD (under Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky, Yakov Peters, Grigoriy Ordzhonikidze, Vyacheslav Menzhinsky, Genrikh Yagoda, Nikolai Yezhov, Lavrentiy Beria, etc.).  So maybe if this were treated in the main article about the Securitate, one could draw some comparisons with the modus operandi of sister organizations.  I'll try to see if I can find some references that treat such a subject--i.e., not just from the point of view of the USSR or Romania, but, say, the whole Eastern Bloc. Turgidson 21:18, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Last paragraph

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: He was a jew, just like the rest of the communist agents who ruled Romania in those times. His name shows this clearly. Why is he considered romanian? 46.97.168.120 (talk) 19:54, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Romanian communist activist, Soviet agent and officer, and