Talk:Misogyny/Archive 1

message: I prefer to use the term 'misandrosy.'
It sounds better rolling off the tongue in a condemnatory roar:
"That is misanDROSY!"
whereas, misandry sounds like a plaintive whine. 
William Coulson
(Editor
Men's Rights Magazine
UK Men's Movement)
email ukkmmjournal@yahoo.co.uk
: Raise that point at Talk:Misandry, not here. Dysprosia 12:29, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  misandry or misandrosy?

message: Bottom is quote from the main page - could someone sort it out, it looks terrible.
"The foundations of early Christian misogyny- its guilt about sex, its insistence on female subjection, its dread of female seduction- are all in St. Paul's epistles. They provided a convenient supply of divinely inspired misogynistic texts for any Christian writer who chose to use them; his statements on female subjection were still being quoted in the twentieth century opponents of equality for women" The Troublesome Helpmate: A History of Misogyny in Literature Katherine M. Rogers
:You're right: the writing is awful. However, it is a quote, so amending it would make it no longer a quote but a paraphrase. I would advocate removing it or paraphrasing it. The ideas are not well set out, so removing it might be best. Rintrah 08:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fix problems below on main page please 

message: "The fact that someone holds misogynist views may not prevent them from having positive relationships with some women. Conversely, simply having positive relationships with some women does not necessarily mean someone does not also hold misogynistic views."
I've changed the second sentence so that it makes sense, highlighting that one's relationships with specific women are not probative evidence of one's attitude to women as a whole. As it was previously, in quotes above, it was redundant. Austinbond06 23:13, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Forms of misogyny 

message: Page needs a bit of work. There should be more discussion of the fact that misogyny is commonly used, at least in academic writing, in a sense parallel to racism.  I think perhaps we need to distinguish the psychiatric condition from the ideological position (e.g., pathological fear/hatred versus intellectual belief in female inferiority). —Tkinias 05:53, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggested improvements

message: So there are two examples from Christianity and there are several Western Philosophers called upon to show this. This is not exactly an exhaustive or even an overly illuminating set of examples. There should be a number of quotations from relgious works (New Testament, Old Testament, Koran, Vedas...) as well as a broad swath of philosophy. Or just cut this section as it's POV. Austinbond06 23:13, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Philosophy and Religion 

message: I added a link to a scholarly, balanced page discussing the controversy over Nietzsche's views on women.  While the page was an improvement over the earlier mess which described him as a "disciple" of Schopenhauer.  He was influenced by, but far from uncritical of, Schopenhauer.  Even whether his views on women were influenced by Schopenhauer is disputed.  His anti-feminism fit into the context of his philosophy, whereas Schopenhauer's views on women seem to appear at random and are far more difficult to interpret as not to be taken at face value.  The fact that "actually said some nice things about women" is not the point.  Unlike Nietzsche, when Schopenhauer he was talking about women, Schopenhauer was clearly talking about women.  That is touched upon in the link I added.
Nietzsche would make a better addition to the anti-feminism section.  He undoubtedly believed that women are primarily mothers, but to call that misogyny is a feminist POV.  Also, why is there no "misandry in philosophy" section on the misandry page?  Some of Nietzsche's statements would qualify, although a far better candidate for such a section would be his "disciple" Spengler.  Almost all of the pages on this site relating to "gender issues" (I hate that word) are overly influenced by feminist ideology and badly need fixing, not just this one. 
JD- I generally agree with the points you have made, but while there need not be a lengthy discussion on this page about Nietzsche's views on women, I felt that it should be briefly explained that his reputation as a misogynist is disputed.  That is why I made the addition to that section of this article.  (And while this has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, Charles Lindbergh was NOT "incredibly anti-semitic, even for his day and age.") 03:27, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Addition to this section

message: I've removed the following text from the intro section, because it's little more than unverifiable POV editorializing. 
:This term is generally used as an accusation against men or traditional women.  Often it translates to "anti-feminist" rather than a general antipathy toward women.  It can also mean extreme dislike of women of a particular ethnic group rather than women as a whole.  This term has little specific meaning other than as verbal vitriol for people who disagree with the user, much the same as the term racism.  
CDC (talk) 22:13, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed text 

message: The problem of Wikipedia is that feminists write about feminism. But they ignore a (IMO) absurd article on Bondage (BDSM), with some (again IMHO) degrading pictures..... --pippo2001 21:47, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  BDSM 

message: Some of the examples in the lists seem to be male chauvinists rather than misogynists.  Hatred of women is not the same as a belief in their ineriority although the two conditions may be linked. —Theo  (Talk) 23:33, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Misogyny and sexual chauvinism

message: "Misandry" is a relatively uncommon word and it seems from scouring the internet that people are generally unaware of it. I found that a number of people search for the "male equivalent of misogyny" and I myself learned of it in this way. I would not be surprised if some of the readers of the misogyny article also look for the gender-opposite term.
As such, I think that a brief explanation / definition of the (albeit linked) word ought to be included in this article, even if it is just a single line in parenthesis as an adjunct to Misandry.
217.109.186.46 15:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: More Misandry

message: I know I am going to spark a debate but I thought I throw this out here. Shouldn't we delete this section? Most of it is just conjecture, opinions, and because Wikipedia is supposed to be non-biased it doesn’t really belong or at least I think so. Whispering 03:24, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Basically since a lot of it is taken out of context and the section generally is a mess, concerning the original meaning intended, whether it's example of bad attitude(Gaston in Beauty and the Beast is IIRC the bad guy of the movie), supposed to learn people about the "truth", enforcing people into submission(religion etc, well that was POV of me...), personal opinions, pure provocation(Anal Cunt), irony etc. 85.226.122.222 07:42, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I agree with Whispering that this section should be removed.  I don't feel like it adds much to our understanding of misogyny; it's just a list of works of art that contain derogatory statements about women.  The full list of all such works would be far too big for this page, so what's the point of listing a few of them?  Maybe if it were just four or five really classic and famous examples, like the Hamlet one, it would be useful.  --Allen 06:28, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misogyny in culture 

message: (n.b. Several entries that follow clearly employ misogyny for ironic or satirical purposes)
* In William Shakespeare's Hamlet, Hamlet chides his mother Gertrude for her decision to marry his uncle Claudius immediately after his father's death with the infamous line: "Frailty, thy name is woman!" (I, ii, 146)
* British poet Robert Gould wrote a number of explicitly misogynistic satires in the 1680s.
* In Mozarts Magic Flute, one of Sarastro's henchmen says to him: "Ein Weib hat also dich berückt? Ein Weib tut wenig, plaudert viel" (So a woman beguiled you? A woman does little, chatters a lot).
* In the 19th century, Swedish dramatist and novelist August Strindberg had a powerful and overt misogynistic philosophy.
* Grumpy, in Disney's Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, says "All females is poison! They're full of wicked wiles!"
*Gaston from Disney's Beauty and the Beast first says that it's not right for a woman to read, then later calls Belle his "little wife" and says that Belle and he will have six or seven "strapping boys" like himself.
thumb|right|200px|Rappers UTFO were sometimes labeled as misogynist; here, use of the term "skeezer" may be objectionable. Such material is rather tame in comparison to more modern recordings
* Anal Cunt, a noisecore shock band (in)famous for their intentionally offensive lyrics, often write songs with misogynist themes such as "Women: Nature's Punching Bag", "You're Pregnant, So I Kicked You In the Stomach", and "I Became a Counselor So I Could Tell Rape Victims They Asked For It".
* The heavy metal band Manowar often employ sexist lyrics, most notably in "Pleasure Slave".
* R&B group Bell Biv DeVoe famously sang, "Never trust a big butt and a smile" in their hit song "Poison".
* Comedian Andrew Dice Clay was famous for misogynist rants in his routines.
* Punk rock singer GG Allin was infamous for misogynist songs.
* Some feminists considered The Rolling Stones' "Stupid Girl", "Under My Thumb", "Yesterday's Papers", and "Midnight Rambler" to be misogynistic. 
* The goth-metal group Type O Negative have often produced misogyny in their songs. One line claimed, "is there no difference between women and fire? The one burns the spirit, the other the flesh!"  The first album, Slow Deep and Hard, is particularly misogynist.
* In ancient times, Roman satirist Juvenal, in particular his sixth satire.
* Travis Bickle in Taxi Driver quotes "I realize now how much she's just like the others, cold and distant, and many people are like that, women for sure, they're like a union."
*The comedy film How to Murder Your Wife has been criticised for misogyny.
* Rap artist Snoop Dogg has long been criticized for his misogynist lyrics, especially in the 1990s.  However, he has made recent strides to distance himself from this previous negative image.  
* Rapper Eminem has been labeled by some critics, including electronic musician Moby, as a misogynist. This claim generally centers around the tracks "Kill You" and "Kim" from The Marshall Mathers LP.
* Rapper Nelly has been criticised for his music video Tip Drill.
* N.W.A.'s Efil4zaggin, their last album as a group, was considered excessively misogynistic even by some fans of the gangsta rap genre.
* Final girl theory is a feminist film theory about misogyny in horror films.
* An early rumor, that continues to this day, is that Mae West was born male, and became a transsexual, a myth that is disproven by the 1900 census which lists Mary Jane West with her known family in Brooklyn, New York. The people of her time found it impossible to believe a woman could be sexually forward, or, even, sexual. Adding the fact that she was a writer, she fell too far outside the stereotype of a woman to be believed.
* Punk rock group Silver Head's song 'Misogynist' details a psychotic male's fixation with a prositute.
Just thought we could remove this section for now and hash out what should be left in. And maybe make it less like a list and more encyclopedic. Whispering 20:35, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Misogyny in culture

message: I equalised the terms of reference for Misogyny and Misandry, and clarified the second last sentence:
*Misogyny  ( mĭ-sŏj ' ə-nē ) is hatred of or strong prejudice against women. Compared with anti-woman sexism or misandry (hatred of or strong prejudice against men), misogyny is usually regarded as directed against women by some men, though women can also hold misogynistic views. In feminist theory, misogyny is recognized  as a political ideology - similar to racism or anti-Semitism - that justifies and maintains the subordination of women by men. The word comes from the Greek misos  "hatred" + gyne "woman".
I will post the alterations tomorrow, if nobody objects.--shtove 19:46, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Altered Intro 

message: Currently says:"(It should also be noted, however, that philosophers such as Pythagoras, John Stuart Mill, Friedrich Engels, Fyodor Dostoyevsky and Henry George supported feminism.)"
The article on feminism recognizes that feminists may lobby for special legislation, and it is widely recognized that feminism blames women's problems on men/patriarchy. The article on feminism recognizes that beliefs of feminists may be diverse. 
I'm quite confident that the term "feminism" was unknown or not widely spread when these men lived, or when one or more of these men lived. I think it should say, if that should be true, that these men were in favour of women's rights than feminism. How do you think that is?
--Thomi 11:34, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Feminist men? 

message: Could someone please explain to me why "luv" is on the list.  I am from Yorkshire and "luv" is sometimes used to address men as well in areas like Leeds.  It is certainly not an insult and is frequently used when adults are talking to young children.  Maybe it's a bit different in other parts of Britain, but putting it up here as a misogynist word is, I feel, something of an overreaction.  If someone doesn't reply in a week, I shall remove that word.  Whatever happens, it needs to be written that not all parts of Britain consider the word to be inflammotary. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.32.128.113 (talk • contribs) .
No response.  It's getting removed.
Nor is 'sheila' considered derogatory in Australia - except that it might be considered uncouth, but certainly not misogynistic. It could be used hatefully in intonation, but so could the word 'woman'. --Jgda 05:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Luv in Great Britain

message: Just a question. How come this paragraph supposivly talking about violence against women and sexist crimes end up being more than a half talking of how men too are victims sometimes? I mean, if you take a look at statistics (even considering your argument that men tend to report less), there is no discussion! A women dies every 2 days in europe beatten up by her compagnon. Do we have that sort of numbers the other way round?
I'm not trying to say men are not victims as well, but this page is about men hate against women, so i really think you should cut of a bit of that part.
Otherwise the article is pretty good.
User:Shagada 09:46, 5 October 2006
:The additional information helps give some perspective, since by quoting the statistics of violence a conclusion is being drawn that misogyny is the only motivation behind the violence. By looking at some other statistics, such as how men are statistically the larger target of violence than women, it suggests there is a possibility that there are other motivations for violence other than sex hatred. Bald statistics are dangerous, at best, and tend to encourage 'no discussion' viewpoints. Jgda 21:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, so it has already been removed and a whole bunch of other unqualified and obviously NPOV statistics added. The KKK use unqualified stats to 'prove' how much more dangerous black people are too... Such things are good indicators of hatred, and very little else: in this case misandry.Jgda 21:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  misogyny and crime

message: No answer above: I suppose it's meant to be self-evident, like most forms of pervasive prejudice. Almost this entire section warrants deletion - several paragraphs are pure soapbox. It's not as if there isn't plenty of research out there to actually tie the crimes against women into misogyny as the motivation - whether I agree with it or not - otherwise the material should be used in violence against women, not here. Jgda 00:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  misogyny and crime #2 

message: "All cultures are linguistically based, and all cultural beliefs, values, and concepts are based in language, and language represents these. Language was created with the interests of maintaining and perpetuating power. [...] The languages used by most people in the world were written by powerful men to serve the interests of patriarchy, classism, and racism." - wow...
There are so many things to take issue with here that I don't even know where to start. The whole section reads like some form of extremist propaganda. How about just deleting it? User:Julian
: Be bold, Julian. I've tried to re-cast those paragraphs to avoid the (insane) suggestion that men "wrote" languages for their nefarious ends; but I don't think anyone would have objected if you had just deleted them. VoluntarySlave 02:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misogyny in language 

message: An Overview All cultures are linguistically based, and all cultural beliefs, values, and concepts are based in language, and language represents these. Language was created with the interests of maintaining and perpetuating power. In the case of the European languages, they were written by white men. The languages used by most people in the world were written by powerful men to serve the interests of patriarchy, classism, and racism. Most, if not all, major languages are in fact patriarchal in their very origins. Language has created and perpetuated social hierarchies of all types to serve the white, male, human hegemony, privilege, and supremacy. It prescribes cultural concepts, behaviors, mores, gender and class roles, and boundaries surrounding all of these.
This first paragraph alone is enough to call the entire entry on "Misogyny" into question. I've only taken an Introduction to Sociology class before and I can tell that these "conclusions" on language and culture are not quite correct. The anti-male bias in this paragraph alone is ridiculous!
134.71.142.46 08:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  -Misogyny in Language-