Talk:Nontheism

message: This article survived an AfD because a distinction could be drawn from atheism, although there was a general acknowledgment among the "keep" votes that it needs a lot of work.  My concern was that the article suggests that Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Hegel, and secular Christian theology all belong together.  The section on Buddhism, for example, argues that Buddhism really should be considered nontheistic, even though there are gods in it.  There are citations for each piece of evidence in that section (or they could be provided for the tagged statements), but the assertion that these add up to the conclusion that Buddhism is nontheistic at all, let along nontheistic as opposed to atheistic—to say nothing of whether the categories of "believer," "agnostic," "atheist," and "nontheist" capture the varieties of religious experience—is an unpublished synthesis.  Even if such a source could be found, it would certainly violate WP:NPOV to privilege its view in the structuring of the article, akin to whether we should have a section on Buddhism as an example in the article infidel or cult (for which statements sources surely exist).  The same goes for the other examples of nontheism offered.  Since I voted to delete the article because of these concerns it would be unseemly for me to expunge the offending material, claiming that only the narrow distinction between nontheism and atheism gained support in the AfD.  But that is the case, so someone else should correct this article.  I suggest a hatchet. RJC TalkContribs 17:02, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There aren't gods in Buddhism. Gods were believed in in the milieu in which Buddhism sprang up, but what the Buddha teaches is that whether they exist or not is irrelevant, and that belief in them or disbelief in them is also irrelevant. -- Evertype·✆ 08:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concerns over synthesis 

message: The philosophy section is just kind of hanging out there, with no relation to the word "nontheism".  Some sources are needed that relate the word "nontheism" to those topics (Hegelianism, Post-theism, Theological noncognitivism).   Without secondary sources that relate the term "nontheism" to those topics, this is synthesis.    --Noleander (talk) 17:47, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Philosophy" section needs more relationship to the term "nontheism" 

message: I removed the word "also", for obvious reasons. I deleted the word Christianity from the section "Nontheistic religions" because it is including the word  of a religion directly related to theism, with no explanation and references or sources, under a section that implies inclusion to that section and possibly belief (or belief of non-belief), which is "also" very controversial and contentious. The entire section needs references , considering, "Nontheistic traditions of thought have played roles...", which would bring unanswered questions such as "what traditions of thought"?, where is the source for this?, etc..., but I am not familiar with Buddhism and Hinduism.  Otr500 (talk) 04:35, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's certainly understandable that it would sound incongruous with respect to Christianity. I think the problem came from having just separated out the separate page on Nontheistic religions and leaving a summary sentence here. I've added it back (but not the "also"), with sourcing from that page. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:55, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Nontheistic" religions 

message: What the fuck?? Since when is atheism a belief system?? I dont belief in santa claus, what is the belief system to that?? Delete this statement or re-write it. Greets--Lexikon-Duff (talk) 01:00, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Atheism has been described as being a belief system and it's perfectly correct; it's a way of thinking revolving around a particular belief (namely the disbelief / rejection of the existence of deities).  Your disbelief in Santa Clause is neither complex nor far-reaching, it has no real implications on life or society; atheism is and does.  That aside, I read the line to be linking Nontheism to various belief systems - primarily religions if this list is anything to go by.  Perhaps "is linked to" might be a better phrasing?  Though the current wording seems fine to me. Emperor Wu (talk) 04:29, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, that's not true, and the Atheism article should make that clear. However, the sentence in question is important in transition to the rest of the paragraph. I've rephrased that sentence so that it still serves that role, without making the dubious assertion that implicit atheism is a belief. Thanks.   — Jess· Δ♥ 05:41, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

text: @Lexikon-Duff, I think it's important to avoid the misnomer that there is a non-ideological ideology. Atheism is an ideology. Your comment reminds me of my trip to the USA where someone accused me of having an accent. I pointed out to them that where I come from they'd have the accent, but because the American accent was their norm they tended to see non-American accents as the deviation. HansNZL (talk) 15:10, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nontheism includes a variety of belief systems.... 

message: Does the Euler diagram recently added to this page satisfy WP:OR? --Tryptofish (talk) 18:43, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Nontheism can include deists and pantheists - so non-theism is partially inside the red circle. Agnosticism, by every def, is an explicit position - so it cannot include infants (who make no claim). Agnosticism is not always considered to be about proof - as some people claim to have other sources of knowledge of things besides having proofs (actually, we all do - I know what I had for breakfast yesterday, but cannot prove it). Agnosticism is thus NOT distinguished by claims of proof, but by claims that we cannot know X vs claims we can know X. Then there's the (less problematic) problem of whether the blue & the black sections can meaningfully be said to be populated. Primarily though, it is very unclear what it's got to do with non-theism.--JimWae (talk) 20:43, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Euler diagram 

message: I dispute that this article should be “Part of a series on Irreligion”. Given the role non-theism plays in Unitarian Universalism, Nontheist Quakers, Religious humanism and other religious groups, placing it in “Part of a series on Irreligion” in not a NPOV. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 19:52, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that you are making an interesting point. However, deleting :Template:Irreligion sidebar from this page, as you just did, does nothing to remove Nontheism from that template, which is on multiple other pages. It really should be discussed at Template talk:Irreligion sidebar, and because of the multiple pages affected, there should be some consensus there before anything is deleted. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:15, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

text: Please see Template talk:Irreligion sidebar#Title line. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:40, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Part of a series on Irreligion - disputed 

message: An early usage of the hyphenated non-theism is by George Holyoake in 1852,[5] who introduces it because:
Mr. [Charles] Southwell has taken an objection to the term Atheism. We are glad he has. We have disused it a long time [...]. We disuse it, because Atheist is a worn-out word. Both the ancients and the moderns have understood by it one without God, and also without morality. Thus the term connotes more than any well-informed and earnest person accepting it ever included in it; that is, the word carries with it associations of immorality, which have been repudiated by the Atheist as seriously as by the Christian. Non-theism is a term less open to the same misunderstanding, as it implies the simple non-acceptance of the Theist's explanation of the origin and government of the world.
:: This is correct but you weren't analytical that here meant atheism. You are analytical about the things you like only. Nontheism and irreligion in the past weren't standardized. We are supposed to reveal the complex truth about the evolution of the English language.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.84.214.21 (talk) 03:03, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Distorting facts 

message: * Greek: nontheism = νηθεϊσμός (όχι atheism/αθεϊσμός ούτε irreligion/αθρησκία)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.84.223.137 (talk) 12:37, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translations 

message: Some antinontheists (αντινηθεϊστές) in Greece are trying to silence the nontheists (νηθεϊστές).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:4106:D000:3863:B955:6D76:4B8C (talk) 22:50, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antinontheism (αντινηθεϊσμός) in Greece