Talk:Arab nationalism

message: It is mentioned that Sykes is the one that proposed the flag colours.  However, up to my knowledge it is based on a verse of poetry by Safi al-din al-Hilli صفي الدين الحلي (forteenth century) which was quite nationalist.  The verse is:
سُودٌ وقائِعُنا بيضٌ صنائِعُنا======خضرٌ مرابِعُنا حمرٌ مواضِينا
Which specifically mentions the four colours (black, white, green and red) in a verse describing Arabs.  I don't have a reference, but I'm sure there is if someone is determined to find one.  --Maha Odeh 05:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The citation for that, evidently, is Fromkin's Peace to end all Peace.  Maybe someone needs to check it out.  Slacker 08:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, I read that Idea came from Safi al-din al-Hilli. Mussav (talk) 15:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The colors of the Arab flags 

message: George Antonious deserves much more than a "see also" link at the end.  Also, there should be some mention of the fact that the Arabic language has two quite distinct and separate words for "nationalism": wataniyya وطنية (loyalty to one's home region or specific country) and qawmiyya قومية (broad pan-Arabism).  Without being seeking to become polemical, it seems only too obvious that qawmiyya has a distinct lack of specific practical concrete achievements, when compared with the broad sweeping claims and grandiose bombastic rhetoric that were closely associated with it over many decades -- and there should be some way of alluding to this fact in the article... AnonMoos (talk) 10:39, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I see that the clarification has already been made, thank you for this comment, as it was truly needed. Another improvement that I think would be relevant is to mention the role of journalism in the development of the ideology, specifically the foundation of newspapers in Arabic. It may sound too simple, but it sustains the language being a unifying element in Arab nationalism not only in a cultural aspect but also in a political sense, because it allowed discussion and expansion of ideas (and ideals). --Mar Aeza (talk) 13:37, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Some areas for improvement

message: Questionable stuff in the article with no or scant sources:<BR>
Within the Arab nationalist movement are three differentiations: the Arab nation, Arab nationalism, and pan-Arab unity ... Local patriotism centered on individual Arab countries was incorporated into the framework of Arab nationalism starting in the 1920s.  --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Tagging POV

message: after reading this article i noticed in the hisotry section there was a gap in the years between the end of WWI and the end of WWII, so i've copied content covering this period from Racism in the Palestinian territories#British Mandate in Palestine. this content is already related, but it could be improved to make it more relevant to this particular aticle. WookieInHeat (talk) 20:00, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: And I've reverted.  Please don't censor things just because you don't like it.  Thanks.  --GHcool (talk) 18:46, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: huh? i didn't remove anything, i added stuff. WookieInHeat (talk) 04:11, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think he was talking about me. I had since filled that gap and removed the information which really doesn't belong in this article and is highly biased and misleading in regards to the overall topic. GHcool hasn't provided any reason for keeping this sore thumb of a section in the article and I'll probably remove it in a few days whilst adding information on the Arab nationalist germanophilia which only developed in the 1930s and is certainly relevant to the article. Prior to that Arab nationalists centered their favor on French nationalism and ideas and that should be included as well. By the way, I mean no offense to you at all. You were just to trying to improve the article by providing information for that 20-year gap so your efforts are of course appreciated and I encourage you to continue editing the article if you're interested. Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:56, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  new section 1920s - 40s 

message: Some of the info in the "Links with Nazism" which I think many would consider controversial needs some clarification. The particular instances are "Due to al-Husayni's role of leadership and his association with the Nazi leader, he was sometimes referred to as the "fuhrer of the Arab world". Who sometimes referred to him as the "fuhrer of the Arab world"? I would presume it was his opponents, but this needs to be clarified. Similarly, in the sentence "In 1935, Jamal al-Husayni (Haj Amin's brother) established the Palestine Arab Party, the party was used to create the "fascist-style" youth organization, al-Futuwwa; also sometimes called the "Nazi Scouts." Again, who sometimes called them the "Nazi Scouts"? --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:09, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As you were posting this, I rewrote the two sentences in question, eliminating the weasel wording ("sometimes called") and more clearly substituting what the cited sources say. I also tagged one of the sources as being of questionable reliability, but had no obvious reason to ignore the other. If you, on the other hand, have some reason to believe the sites used are not reliable sources, you might want to raise the question at WP:RSN. Fat&Happy (talk) 02:26, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow. Thank you very much for the clarifications. This alone has improved the section's NPOV. As for reliable sources, upon a quick scan, the Palm Beach Post source seems to be biased against Arabs while also borderline irrelevant. I won't bring it up myself at the reliable sources noticeboard until I do a slightly more focused background check though. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:15, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarifications needed 

message: Arab nationalism and Pan-Arabism really emphasize on the same goals and should be viewed as one in the same. Charles Essie (talk) 18:41, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you need to justify that a bit more; what reasons, exactly, are you saying apply here? Moonraker12 (talk) 22:26, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

text: Also, this article (at 43Kb) is already getting to the point when splitting it would be advisable; how does making it bigger improve the situation? Moonraker12 (talk) 22:30, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: I think it's time to reopen this discussion. Some IPs have been vandalizing the section lately, so it's caught my attention again. Like my previous stance, I support the removal of the section since it's basically a collection of tidbits trying to paint the picture that the nationalists were like Nazis or allies of Nazis, when in reality, Germany, and Nazi Germany in particular, didn't factor so much in the development of the movement. Then of course the title ("Links with Nazism) implies that Arab nationalism was an organized or unitary movement with "links" to the Nazis whereas the movement was a diverse one with different and often clashing trends: the British-aligned Hashemites and their supporters who focused on the Mid-East, the radical pan-Arab Baathists, the Istiqlalists, the Nasserists of the 50s and 60s, and independent nationalist thinkers and politicians. Some individuals within these trends harbored pro-German feeling either because in that era they had a mutual enemy in the British and French who colonized the Arabic-speaking territories or because they were plain supporters of the racist and fascist ideology of Nazism. According to the frequently cited Youssef Choueri, 19th-century German nationalism, not Nazism, was particularly inspiring to the early Arab nationalist thinkers for various reasons. To be clear, I don't support any sort of whitewashing of history and as previously suggested, I say we should merge some of the more significant passages into the main subsections in a chronological order and leave the random tidbits of individual opinions i.e. those of the Baath member Sami al-Jundi, out (at least from this article, it could be included in any of the relevant Baath articles or if someone creates Sami al-Jundi.) --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:35, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: There has been a lot written about Arab nationalism's links with Nazism.  I think the section is good as it stands.  --GHcool (talk) 04:15, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That's false  and border line original research. You didn't reply to any of my points. To equate the Baath Party, which had individuals with Nazi sympathies, with the Arab nationalist movement as a whole, which is what this article is about, is misleading and goes against NPOV. To claim that the Mufti represented the Arab nationalist movement as a whole is also misleading. Also, if you recall, in the the section above where we were previously discussing this issue, you agreed that we should eliminate the "Nazism" heading. Any links, in the form of sympathy or inspiration, by individual Arab nationalists, with the Nazis or the Nazi ideology does not warrant a section dealing with the development of Arab nationalism. If we're going to have a separate section dealing with say, "discrimination and Arab nationalism" that's a different story. There we could include a passage about the racist sympathies of some of the early nationalists as well as the actions committed by the Baath in Iraq and Syria in the 70s-80s where non-Arabs (Kurds) were killed or displaced—if the reliable sources say it was in the name of Arab nationalism. We could also include the persecution of Islamists and communists by various Arab nationalist movements. Keep in mind that this article isn't about any particular individual or organization and we should avoid undue weight and trying to paint our own picture of how the movement developed. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:42, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so.  Nazism did influence a large number of influential Arab nationalists during the years of the Third Reich (a critical period for Arab nationalism).  Let's not mince words here.  You're welcome to add information such as the debate surrounding how much influence Nazism had, but you may not WP:CENSOR information on this shameful (or proud from some Arabs' point of view) period of Arab history.  --GHcool (talk) 17:43, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Uhh, no, but it doesnt work that way. You cant just say that a removal of irrelevant material is censorship. And in that vein, could you please tell me exactly how this material is related to the topic of the article? nableezy - 23:57, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

text: When did I say, or even imply, that we should "censor" information dealing with the relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world? I'm saying that a certain amount of reliably sourced material dealing with ties between the Arab nationalist movement as a whole and Nazi Germany should be merged with the rest of the History section in chronological order. Other material dealing with random nationalist individuals like al-Jundi or Jamal al-Husayni or the obsessive emphasis on the Mufti, should be removed from this article which isn't a summation of "Arab history," but strictly about Arab nationalism. There's already a much more detailed article at Nazi relations with the Arab world, the Mufti has his own long and detailed article and the Baath Party has several articles. Instead of adding more context to the section, it has now become even more one-sided with a blunt generalization that the Arab people are widely supportive of anti-Semitism and the implication that the Qur'an is a tool of anti-Semitism. I've restored the POV tag by the way since none of the earlier concerns were ever addressed (the above discussion ended abruptly without any sort of conclusion) and recent edits have made the segment even more biased. --Al Ameer son (talk) 00:25, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough.  I accept Al Ameer son's January 31 proposal, but be warned that if I suspect the dedication to WP:Undue weight crosses the line into violating WP:CENSOR, I will restore the censored material.  --GHcool (talk) 17:14, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I got rid of the al-Jundi and Jamal al-Husayni bits and pieces and cut down info on the Mufti that had nothing to do with the Arab nationalist movement but more to do with the Mufti himself and the British Mandate period in Palestine. The Mufti is still mentioned frequently (too often I think). His leadership of the Palestine revolt, his role in the Bloudan Conference, his role in Iraq, his flight from Iraq to Germany, his development of ties with Hitler and the Nazis and attempts to coordinate Arab and German policies vis-a-vis the "Jewish problem" in Palestine, including a quote by him related to that matter is all mentioned. Nazi broadcasts of anti-Semitic messages tailored to the Arabs of the Mid-East and the relationship of Nazi Germany, Britain, Vichy Syria and the Rashid Ali period in Iraq have also remained because of their importance to the rise of Arab nationalism and the dynamics of WWII in the Mid-East as it relates to Arab nationalism (special emphasis on the events in Iraq. I replaced the picture showing the Mufti meeting with Hitler with one showing the Mufti and Rashid Ali commemorating the 1941 Iraq coup in a Berlin ceremony because it's more relevant to the passages dealing with coup and its repercussions while still reflecting the public support the two men were given by Germany. Finally, I've begun expanding the info dealing with the importance of the conflict in Iraq and the earlier revolt in Palestine to the growth of Arabist sentiment, as well as the rival attempts of Egypt and Iraq to foster some form of Arab unity in the lead-up of the Arab League's establishment. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I liked most of your edits Al Ameer son, but restored some relevant things you deleted.  Sadly, someone rudely undid my restorations. I intend on restoring my restorations in a day once a spirit of calmness once again inhabits Wikipedia's more hot headed editors.  --GHcool (talk) 22:34, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you GHcool, but actually I have to oppose most of your edits and restorations which really amount to a near-full restoration of the previous Nazism subsection, minus the heading, and including the abrupt inclusion of a See also link to "Nazi relations with the Arab world." I already linked it behind different wording, but that could certainly be tweaked for clearer exposure for the readers. Again, using the opinion of some low-level Baath Party official (Sami al-Jundi) to describe Arab nationalists as racists and supporters of Nazism simply goes against WP:Undue and WP:OR. In fact, he wasn't even a party official during the 1930s because the Baath Party wasn't founded until 1947. We're essentially using the assertion of a relative nobody, a random Arab nationalist, to label/describe all Arab nationalists or their collective mood in that particular decade. Why is Jamal al-Husayni's Palestine Arab Party, a largely irrelevant force in the BM of Palestine, even mentioned at all? Because it was apparently inspired by the Nazis and named its youth movement after them? What would that have to do with the development of Arab nationalism? It belongs in the Nazi relations with the Arab world article or in the articles on Jamal-al-Husayni and the Palestine Arab Party. Finally I'm not sure why you changed line dealing with "the Mufti" becoming friendly with the Nazis to the "al-Husayni clan" being friendly with the Nazis? That's a false assumption or generalization of the whole family, not that any sort of relations between the family and the Nazis is relevant to this article. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:58, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You make fair points.  I separated a paragraph and restored the picture of Hitler with the Mufti, but did not remove or insert any more text.  I consider the matter closed.  --GHcool (talk) 23:23, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I forgot about the picture. If we have one picture depicting the Mufti and Rashid Ali commemorating a major event linked to the growth of Arab nationalism (the 1941 Iraq coup) inside Nazi Germany isn't that much more relevant to that section of the article than a picture depicting the Mufti alone in a meeting with Hitler whose purpose isn't made known and, more importantly, whose relation to the development of Arab nationalism isn't made known? And of course we don't need two pictures of the Mufti as, once again this article isn't about him or Nazi relations with the Arab world. --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:49, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

text: Welcome "new" user. This was discussed and removed by consensus, and if you want to restore it you need to establish a consensus for doing so.You would likely need to show the relevance to the topic of Arab nationalism. nableezy - 23:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

text: Again, the material was removed by consensus. Either gain a new one or walk away. Repeated reverts will be reported. nableezy - 02:32, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links with Nazism section continued 

message: Some have argued that the Arab Spring has triggered a revival of Arab nationalism and Pan-Arabism, as there has been solidarity between the revolutionary movements in all the Arab states and the role of Arab nationalists in the revolutions. Charles Essie (talk) 21:36, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revival 

message: The recently approved Egyptian Constitution, along with its predecessors, and constitutions of some other Arab nations such as Jordan and Syria, all prominently state that their country is "part of the Arab nation". Perhaps this should be mentioned in the article somewhere? --Yair rand (talk) 01:04, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Constitutions 

message: The decline of Arab Nationalism caused Islam offer the Arabs a genuine ideology, unlike Arab Nationalism and Marxism-Leninism which are imported from European ideas. King Faisal of Saudi Arabia sought to counter the influences of Marxism-Leninism and Arab Nationalism in the region by promoting pan-Islamism as an alternative. He called for the establishment of the Muslim World League, visiting several Muslim countries to advocate the idea. He also engaged in a propaganda and media war with Egypt's pan-Arabist president, Gamal Abdel Nasser.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.134.201.14 (talk) 05:22, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arab Nationalism Versus Islamic Fundamentalism 

message: This article features almost no information about Arab nationalism after the Six-Day War. The ideology did not just cease to exist after that. Arab nationalists continue to hold positions of power in many of the Arab states today. Arab nationalist groups also played key roles many subsequent conflicts throughout the Arab world (such as Black September, the Lebanese Civil War, the Iran–Iraq War, the Gulf War, the Iraq War, the first and second intifadas, the Arab Spring, the Syrian Civil War, the Arab Winter, ect.). Arab nationalism is not dead. It's very much alive. Charles Essie (talk) 01:54, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: There are still many committed supporters of Arab nationalist ideas, but during the 1956-1967 period, people throughout the Arab world were paying very close attention to the struggle of Nasser vs. the royal and "reactionary" regimes, the speeches of Nasser were widely listened to outside Egypt, and even many people who didn't approve of or support Nasser thought that Nasserism could be the wave of the future.  Nowadays, Arab nationalism is very fragmented, without any real overall leader, and there's little hope that Arab countries will start merging together any time soon... AnonMoos (talk) 09:05, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: You're absolutely right and I don't think I did a very good job articulating my case. What I meant to say is there are many Arab nationalist parties and personalities that are still involved in politics. This being the case, I don't think this article should have stopped at 1967. Charles Essie (talk) 15:32, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Arab nationalism after 1967

message: This article seems to think that Arab nationalism and Islamism are mutually exclusive which is not true at all. There are many groups and personalities that have advocated a hybrid of Islamism and pan-Arabism (such as the Amal Movement, the Arab Unification Party, the Muslim Brotherhood, the National Congress, ect.). Pan-Islamism could also be considered an expansion of pan-Arabism (just like Turanism is often considered and expansion of pan-Turkism.). Charles Essie (talk) 00:34, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Islamism doesn't have much to offer non-Muslim Arabs. AnonMoos (talk) 09:09, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: That's true. I don't know what I was thinking back then. Let's disregard the whole thing. Charles Essie (talk) 15:22, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Islamism

message: I think it is necessary to add a new section to tackle the topic of women in Arab nationalism. There is no mention of their participation in the movements, nor their importance for the construction of the ideology, which is an area of improvement considering they were constantly used as nationalist symbols in the form of "mothers of the nation". It would be interesting to bring up the connection between their status in Arab societies and the movement, as it changed significantly in different countries as part of an attempt on modernization. In this sense, they are crucial to understand the historical process of the creation of the nation-state. Moreover, it is relevant because this link also implied certain limits to their political activism. I am already working on a draft.--Mar Aeza (talk) 13:37, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope that what you write won't skip over the betrayal of women in Algeria, who played a very prominent role in the struggle to expel the French, but then were deprived of recognition or positions of influence after Algeria achieved its independence in 1962... AnonMoos (talk) 19:14, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of a section on women in Arab nationalism 

message: Is somebody (preferably the editor who added them) with time, and access to the Dawisha sources, able to clean up which citations belong to which work by Dawisha? There are three different works by Dawisha cited (I have added a third today) but it's not clear which the citations refer to. I tried to avoid this problem when adding the third by putting the work title in the reference. Thanks! Yr Enw (talk) 14:49, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation mess