Talk:European microstates

message: Is Luxembourg not a microstate?
:Hmmm, it takes half an hour or so to drive across Luxembourg as I recall, whereas somewhere like Monaco you can walk all over. Luxembourg is big enough to appear as a patch rather than a dot on a reasonably-scaled map of Europe (a very unscientific way of thinking about it I know). I'd say Luxembourg is a good cut-off: if you're that size or bigger you're not a microstate. However, not all microstates are the same: Andorra is the biggest on the present list at about one fifth of the size of Luxembourg, and is very much bigger than the likes of Monaco and Vatican City. 86.136.90.241 06:07, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've often wondered what the cut-off point should be myself. I think it's a little strange to classify Luxembourg as a 'proper' state while discounting Malta or Iceland. A few criteria I've considered would be a population below 100,000; sovereignty over their own defence (even Malta and Luxembourg have symbolic militaries, Iceland has disbanded its military, but is still a NATO member) -to the best of my knowledge Andorra, San Marino, the Holy See and Monaco all rely on France, Spain and Italy for their military defence); and a 'realistic' possibility of joining the EU or NATO if they desired (obviously this would limit the definition to European microstates). Any of these definitions would, even though fairly arbitrary, set a more common-sense definition of the term, as most people apply it. --Maverick XIII 08:33, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I personally would be inclined to include Luxembourg and make that the large-end cut-off point.  It does share certain characteristics with the microstates as well as the larger states.  Iceland is simply too large to be a microstate, though, even if its quite small in terms of population. matt91486 01:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Cyprus isn't really a European country though. If Japan joins the EU, I don't think people will classify it as a European country. 2001:8003:9008:1301:D986:7DE0:BBC7:6B1A (talk) 09:07, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Luxembourg

message: "Because of these special economic policies, the microstates have not joined the European Union but have special agreements with it" How does not joining the EU help the microstates??
:They are not subjected to most of the EU policies. Besides, their power in the EU would be minimal. For example, Monaco has no personal taxes. The Vatican is not democratic. Andorra operates with low tariffs. Tax havens,...
:--Error 00:00, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is because Malta is not a microstate at all in a political/cultural sense. It should be taken off the list IMHO. 140.180.190.116 (talk) 17:04, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: EU and microstates

message: Should Kaliningrad Oblast be included as Aland and Feroer?
Is Kosovo micro-enough?
--Error 4 July 2005 00:13 (UTC)
:Kalingrad is not a microstate, it is an integral part of the largest country in wht world, it just happens to be detached from the rest of the country--Captdoc 21:38, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Kosovo is still considered to be part of Serbia even though they don't have any control over it these days. Furthermore it's about four times the size of Luxembourg. 86.136.90.241 06:07, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Most western europe countries consider it a country, and so do the US, canada, and Australia who's citizens come here most often. Also, considering Serbia doesn't have anything to say about Kosovo anymore, it is independent, and the other countries are just idiotic for not recognising it.  Mijzelffan (talk) 18:49, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

text: But its declaration of independence is unilateral which violates international law. 2001:8003:9008:1301:D986:7DE0:BBC7:6B1A (talk) 09:11, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Kaliningrad, Kosovo

message: The SMOM has claims to be the smallest state (but many would regard it as borderline).
Mount Athos is technically within the EU.
Jackiespeel 18:06, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: These entities aren't countries/states. 2001:8003:9008:1301:D986:7DE0:BBC7:6B1A (talk) 09:12, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Sovereign Military Order of Malta and Mount Athos

message: This area could be developed somewhat.
Given the discussion over on the Danzig/Gdansk page I am putting both names in, but in this context the former name is the correct one.
Jackiespeel 18:06, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Microstates in history

message: How can five things all be "unique survivors"? I suggest changing this to "the only survivors", "unusual survivors" or "rare survivors" as appropriate. - Trezatium 15:50, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Unique"

message: Should not the states that hold Crown dependency status be included here?
They are the Isle of Man, the Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Bailiwick of Jersey. These states are independent of the British government in Westminster but are possessions of the British Crown. They are not members of the European Union. --Thefrood 19:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no reliable source cited in the article which provides that microstates have to be sovereign states. Quite the contrary Bremen has been referred to as a microstate within Germany's context (which Robynthehode has tried to "conceal" from this article). Whereas globally speaking there are references to Bermuda, Guam and so on as microstates. There is no reason on hand not to include dependent territories, like Gibraltar mentioned below. 203.145.94.36 (talk) 10:06, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Isle of Man, Guernsey and Jersey as (British) Crown dependencies 

message: Why are the Canary Islands included as a dependency? Just because they are an autonomous region? All of Spain is composed of autonomous regions. Currently Spain is organized in 17 autonomous communities and 2 autonomous cities. So it makes no sense that the Canary Islands are there. Other regions as, for example, the Basque Country enjoy a higher degree of autonomy. --Knorpel 03:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canary Islands 

message: Should not the Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia (it is a British overseas territories located within Cyprus) be included in the Dependencies section? --Thefrood 14:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a dependent territory, not a country/state. 2001:8003:9008:1301:D986:7DE0:BBC7:6B1A (talk) 08:48, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia 

message: How about sealand? It's recognised by the Brit Gov.--86.139.49.174 (talk) 10:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sealand is not a microstate rather it is a micronation. It claims it was recognized by the British Government, but that not mutual agreed to. In fact no country recognizes Sealand.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shocktm (talk • contribs) 17:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure that the government of the Principality of Sealand hold the same views as the UK government regarding the Legal status of Sealand. --Thefrood (talk) 22:41, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Self-proclaimed micronations are not countries. 2001:8003:9008:1301:D986:7DE0:BBC7:6B1A (talk) 08:50, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Sealand

message: I think that Republic of Ragusa should not be listed here. There were in the past centuries plenty of small states, especially in Germany and Italy, and none of them is listed here. After the fall of the Holy Roman Empire in 1808, these small states could not even be considered part of the Holy Roman Empire.
Laurusnobilis (talk) 20:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Republic of Ragusa 

message: I did two Google Books searches for "micro-state/microstate" and "mini-state/ministate" (, ), using the names of the first five states listed in the Microstate article. The results showed that the difference in frequency between these two sets of terms is not significant (187 to 146), according to Wikipedia's naming conventions (WP:UE, at least). Thus, I thought it proper to give them equal billing in the first sentence. SamEV (talk) 18:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: microstate vs ministate 

message: Doesn't Klaipėda Region belong on this page, under "Historical Small Territories"? I can't find size data, but it would seem to be small enough to qualify.
Jperrylsu (talk) 01:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Memelland (Klaipéda)

message: We all agree. Thank you
Secondly, just because it takes 30mins to cross Luxembourg it doesn't mean it is not a microstate. I can assure you - it takes longer to cross Malta than Luxembourg.....  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.34.140.221 (talk) 02:29, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Akrotiri, Dhekelia, and Gibraltar are possessions of the UKoGBaNI.  They are not microstates because they are not states.  Man, Jersey, and Guernsey are independent states in personal union with the British Crown.  Lumping them both under the category "Dependencies" is not accurate.    Randall Bart    Talk   22:15, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  See above. 203.145.94.36 (talk) 10:07, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

text: Nope, Gibraltar is a dependent territory. It is not a country or state. 2001:8003:9008:1301:D986:7DE0:BBC7:6B1A (talk) 08:50, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gibraltar is basically a microstate 

message: This article reads pretty much like original research from the firt line to the last. Based on what are these six states in particular singled out as microstates? Malta's population is much larger than Iceland's, so I guess it's not population at any rate. Regardless of what it is, it's obvious that it's not sourced. At the moment, all this article represents is some Wikipedia user's opinions about which states are defined as "European microstates", and that is neither interesting nor relevant. Unless some good sources can be found for this artcile, it should be nominated for AfD as there is nothing to suggest it's noteworthy, relevant or even correct.JdeJ (talk) 14:30, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps some of the users who voted keep in the AfD-discussion would care to address this point. In the discussion, it was claimed that there are a lot of such sources available, although none was presented that would define these six states as the European microstates. The article remains the personal opinion of some user.JdeJ (talk) 10:59, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Malta actually mentions this in the opening sentence. The only logic for it being considered a microstate seems to be the fact it's so mentioned on this article! I agree that both mis-uses of the term should be put right unless a definitive source officially listing Malta as a microstate is found. Pietru (talk) 11:06, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Malta is a microstate. All states smaller than 1000 km2 are micro. It's about surface, not population. Look, Monaco is the most densily populated state in the world (!!!) but it's still a microstate. And yes, I would also want to see some sources for the info in this article. But I searched the web myself and, except for Wikipedia, I haven't found anything! --93.122.133.83 (talk) 16:03, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you give me a cite for the < 1000 km2 being the definition of microstate?  If the source of the definition is Wikipedia this is original research.    Randall Bart    Talk   22:08, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources?

message: I've removed the section about the Vevcani municipality, since its independence appears to be no more than a joke. Unlike the other entities mentioned in the article, there doesn't seem to be any serious claim to its being a state or state-like entity. --Levin (talk) 18:41, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vevcani municipality 

message: It seems that author abandoned this article so I guess we should rewrite it ourself. I think because there is no clear definition or list of microstates it will be good to put Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Monaco and Vatican as 5 undisputed microstates because they meet all possible criteria (population, area, special relationship with neighbors) and make section about proposed microstates where put Malta, Iceland, Luxembourg, Cyprus and Montenegro and discuss why they can be considered as microstates and why not. Please comment what you think about this idea.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thorbins (talk • contribs) 05:10, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganisation of the article 

message: One of the overlooked reasons for the inclusion of Luxembourg (but not Cyprus) as a microstate in English-language sources is size, as measured prior to the late 1970s. The United States, Great Britain, Ireland, and Canada all used the imperial system of measurement far longer than most of the rest of the world, (until the late 1970s at the very least), and Luxembourg is 999 square miles. If a figure of 1,000 square miles was established as the cutoff for a microstate, Luxembourg would qualify, as would Malta; Iceland, Cyprus, and Montenegro would not, as their area exceeds the 1,000 square mile figure. Consider that tables and charts of the 1960s and 1970s listed countries by size in thousands of square miles, with special notation used to indicate those of less than 1,000 square miles; this would be justification to list Luxembourg with the smaller states. Horologium (talk) 04:15, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Luxembourg, redux 

message: Can't the same description be applied to Luxemborg, which was a grand duchy within the Holy Roman Empire? A duchy must be a part of a kingdom or empire; I think that Luxemborg was held to the Holy Roman Emperors, but others may be able to correct me. Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 00:43, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Luxembourg is not considered the case, as within the German Confederation (i.e. 19th century successor of HRE as considered today) it was held by the Dutch monarch (this situation lasted until 1890, after German unification), and was therefore excluded from German unification as a foreign holding. Liechtenstein remained for a different reason, because of its location as non-bordered to the entities that have accepted the union. --Phanthanhtom (talk) 08:45, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The Free and Hanseatic cities of Bremen and Hamburg (mow Federal states within Germany) were also polities of the HRE. Luxembourg was taken away from that as a Duchy by the French in 1793. It was restored as a Grand Duchy within both the German Confederation and the Kingdom of the Netherlands in 1814 as the successor (in a dynastic sense) to the Principality of Nassau-Orange which was lost to the Dutch King in that year. So whether the present Grand Duchy which became a sovereign state only in 1839 can be considered a former polity of the HRE is at least debatable. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 13:26, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputing the status of Liechtenstein as 'the sole remaining polity of the Holy Roman Empire'. 

message: "The Holy See is a unique sovereign entity under international law distinct from Vatican City with the pope as the head of both"
"Unlike the Holy See, which is sovereign over the Vatican City, the Order has no territory."
Which is it? Is the Holy see distinct or is it the sovereign? The first is quoted from the Vatican city section and the second from  Sovereign Military Order of Malta section. They conflict. Is the Holy See landless as first suggested or is it not?Serialjoepsycho (talk) 05:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The Holy See (which is occupied by the Pope) is in charge of the State of the Vatican City. Much like the British Crown is sovereign over the UK of Greatbritain and Northern Ireland, so there's no real distinction. The Pope is the sovereign of the State of the Vatican City in his capacity as the one seated on the Holy See. The fact that ambassadors are accredited by the Holy See is no different from the fact that ambassadors to other countries are accredited to the sovereigns or heads of state of other nations. (to the Court of St. James for instance, or to the King of the Netherlands). The Holy See is simply the power that rules the State of The Vatican City. And the Pope (occupying that See)is the Sovereign of that State. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 13:16, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no distinction between the Crown of the UK and the UK in international Law. While Elizabeth exists as the Crown of Multiple States there is no distinction between the crowns and their states. The Vatican and the Holy See are either distinct or they are not.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 18:02, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The State and its sovereign or it's Head of State are two different things, even if International Law doesn't make a distinguishment between them. The Kingdom of Belgium is another thing than the King of the Belgians or even the People of Belgium. The Holy See (and it's temporary occupant) holds sovereignty over the State of the Vatican City. The Holy See is of course more that that as it also is the leading body of the worldwide RC Church. But it is still also the sovereign power over that particular state. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 19:32, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

text: It's sovereignty over the Vatican is clear. However the sovereignty of the Vatican City and the Sovereignty of the Holy See are separate and distinct. What is even more puzzling however is the inclusion of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta which is distinctly not a state. It seems someone may be mistaking sovereignty with statehood.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 22:49, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which is it? 

message: Shouldn't the Russian-sponsored microstates be mentioned here too, of course with the caveat that almost nobody else recognises them? Or are they not micro enough? I mean Transdnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Nagorno Karabakh. 129.67.116.76 (talk) 06:08, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a separate article on "de facto" states, which seems like a more appropriate place to discuss these entities. In one of the sources referenced here ("Microstates as Modern Protected States: Towards a New Definition of Micro-statehood), it is argued that while de facto states do indeed display certain similarities to microstates, their key unique feature is the lack of international recognition and all its political and economic consequences.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tehlirian (talk • contribs) 02:52, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

text: De facto states are not proper countries. Besides, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Nagorno Karabakh are located south of the Greater Caucasus, they are geographically parts of Asia, not Europe. 2001:8003:9008:1301:D986:7DE0:BBC7:6B1A (talk) 08:54, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Microstates linked to Russia 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I wonder what is the inclusion criteria for European microstates? Why is Malta considered a European microstate? Its population (525,285) is 7-16 times more than the other five European microstates. Malta also has a bigger population than Iceland (366,425) and it is no too far behind Luxembourg (632,275) and Montenegro (621,718) either. Why wouldn't Iceland, Luxembourg, and Montenegro be classified as European microstates too? 2001:8003:9008:1301:D986:7DE0:BBC7:6B1A (talk) 08:47, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Malta, Montenegro, Luxembourg, and Iceland