Talk:Moshing

message: Suggested revisions
*could use a complete re-write
**I came to this article hoping for an amusingly well-written account of moshing, but was pretty bummed by the content of the article. If I get the time, I'm gonna rewrite from scratch with a few references, rather than keeping this large page of unreferenced junk. I also added two free images and put some stuff in the external links for later use. - Phorque 19:17, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite (Feb 07)

message: This section is full of unsubstantiated nonsense which has no place in an encyclopedia.
Pardon me for butting in, but based on first-hand experience of moshing, I'd have to say that the supposed 'differences' are arbitrary and that moshing can't be split down such lines; it has much more to do with the band or style of music being played, the nature of the venue and the demographics of those in the audience.
By way of a for-instance, myself and my girlfriend attended the 4th March Nine Inch Nails concert at Birmingham's Carling Academy (go to the article here for more info) and noticed a big difference between the crowd's reaction to the opening act Ladytron (enthusiastic, but more sedentary,) and the main event.
Also, during NIN's setlist, round about March of the Pigs or possibly Ruiner, my girlfriend twisted her ankle on the metal footplate near the front of the barrier and another concert-goer jumped on her injured foot, spraining it. Whether it was accidental or deliberate notwithstanding, I doubt that this or similar incidents are any less or more likely to occur in one country or the other.
So, in simple terms, the section might as well be deleted.
AdZ 15:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Differences between UK and America 

message: The article is extremely biased against "moshers". It suggests that they intentionally act violently towards people performing Hardcore moves. I'm editing to remove some of the bias. I'll still keep in the information about friction between the two groups though. 87.102.12.10 19:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[POV]] 

message: Reorganized the history section to include an explanation of the term "mosh" and an explanation of the dance style's origins.Dpetley 01:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's an outside link that I'm guessing is supposed to talk more about it, but I think some of that information should be synthesized and included on this Wikipedia page. It only makes sense that after you make a claim you support it by elaborating with at least one sentence, especially because it's something I (and many others, I'm sure) are curious about. ----Chartreuse —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chartreuse 1986 (talk • contribs) 20:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Moshing is almost an exclusively metal term. It involves the "circle pit" and a more violent experience resulting in more physical harm. Slam Dancing is a Punk Rock concert experience that usually only appears violent and is kind of a colorful parody of dancing at concerts. Members of the Punk culture, in my experience, detest the word "mosh" as it is so closely associated with metal. A scene that many subcultures (Punk, Goth, etc.) do not wish to be associated with. Of course, knowing wikipedia's rigid position on having citations from elite sources, none of this information will matter. 98.31.20.15 (talk) 15:34, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

text: I've rewritten parts of the introduction to flow better, and have used the terms "moshing" and "slamdancing" as synonymous with one another. The references I'm familiar with and personal experience have lead me to this usage; I'll continue to edit this page as if the terms were interchangeable until an accessible and reputable citation can show otherwise. Agree with above comments that if there are distinctions between slamdancing and moshing, they need to be explained here. Dpetley 10:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree.  See my comment in "Moshing v. S....," above.  Pogoing, though closely related, had origins more in concert halls than clubs. WLohe (talk) 19:45, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of the term and dance style 

message: Toward the beginning of this article, someone wrote "While many use the terms slamdancing and moshing interchangeably, distinctions can be made between the two," and then didn't explain anything about said differences. 
:There's an outside link that I'm guessing is supposed to talk more about it, but I think some of that information should be synthesized and included on this Wikipedia page. It only makes sense that after you make a claim you support it by elaborating with at least one sentence, especially because it's something I (and many others, I'm sure) are curious about. ----Chartreuse —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chartreuse 1986 (talk • contribs) 20:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Moshing is almost an exclusively metal term. It involves the "circle pit" and a more violent experience resulting in more physical harm. Slam Dancing is a Punk Rock concert experience that usually only appears violent and is kind of a colorful parody of dancing at concerts. Members of the Punk culture, in my experience, detest the word "mosh" as it is so closely associated with metal. A scene that many subcultures (Punk, Goth, etc.) do not wish to be associated with. Of course, knowing wikipedia's rigid position on having citations from elite sources, none of this information will matter. 98.31.20.15 (talk) 15:34, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

text: I've rewritten parts of the introduction to flow better, and have used the terms "moshing" and "slamdancing" as synonymous with one another. The references I'm familiar with and personal experience have lead me to this usage; I'll continue to edit this page as if the terms were interchangeable until an accessible and reputable citation can show otherwise. Agree with above comments that if there are distinctions between slamdancing and moshing, they need to be explained here. Dpetley 10:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moshing vs. slamdancing 

message: Skanking was removed by an unregistered username (71.111.154.176) with the explanation: "Removed Skanking as a variation of moshing, it predates moshing by quite a bit." I reinstated skanking as a type of mosh. The dance affiliated with ska is different though there are similarities (two-stepping, for example). But skanking is also practiced in a hardcore form. Despite the argument that skanking emerged separately and earlier from moshing, the term skanking is now used by and in hardcore scenes to describe a certain type of mosh. Therefore, it should stay. Dpetley 19:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Types and forms of moshing (skanking, thrash, etc) 

message: User Daddy Kindsoul writes June 2, 2007 "the pogo dance of the 70s isn't actually full on moshing (subject of this article) itself, full moshing begins with hardcore as article states." I think he's correct. However, I think this article really needs to be expanded into a broader discussion of how moshing came to be. Such an article would include information on the pogo. I will admit some bias: I'd rather lump the various dances discussed here (skanking, moshing, slamdancing, thrashing, two-stepping, hardcore dancing, etc) into the larger category of simply "mosh," and explain their subtleties as needed. As it standing now, there are articles on all of these separately, many of which duplicate information. Can we work to put them all into a larger context and try to create an article that relates them all together?Dpetley 19:18, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  See my comment in "Moshing v. S....," above.  Pogoing, though closely related, had origins more in concert halls than clubs. WLohe (talk) 19:45, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The pogo? 

message: The third paragraph about these two looks highly suspect to me. Is there a citation?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.100.193.115 (talk) 03:29, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  John Fern and Michael Palmer 

message: FWIW, moshing also occurs at Cypress Hill concerts who play neither Punk nor Metal but Hip-Hop. The moshing there is actually very, err, extensive. --EnOreg 22:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mainstream usage of the term and dance

message: Skanking was removed by an unregistered username (71.111.154.176) with the explanation: "Removed Skanking as a variation of moshing, it predates moshing by quite a bit." I reinstated skanking as a type of mosh. The dance affiliated with ska is different though there are similarities (two-stepping, for example). But skanking is also practiced in a hardcore form. Despite the argument that skanking emerged separately and earlier from moshing, the term skanking is now used by and in hardcore scenes to describe a certain type of mosh. Therefore, it should stay. Dpetley 19:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge other articles with this one/Types and forms of moshing (skanking, thrash, etc) 

message: Deleted the following paragraph:
:Even though moshing is done to the aforementioned music genres, heavy metal and similar genres are not completely subject to danceability standards since people started dancing to house music and genres similar to that; since house music is what people commonly refer to as "dance music" compared to the genres moshing is dedicated to.
 
This doesn't make any sense.  Is it trying to say, "Because people dance to even house music now, moshing is dancing."?  Also, "dance music" to me does not mean house/techno music.  It means the kind of pop between disco and hip-hop, with mainly black singers.  But this is all irrelevant to a moshing article, especially in a section about criticisms of moshing and safety issues. Sluggoster 02:40, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah that paragraph sounded a bit like nonsense. and Sluggoster i see what your saying but Dance music covers everything Electronic basically. from House to Jungle. i know its strange but what can ya do? :) 172.143.100.113 03:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  House music paragraph 

message: I cleaned up the metal portion in Types of Moshing. It contained an instruction to "See Speed Moshing", but there is no such article and it was not inked. I instead made the entry more of a definition of Speed Moshing. I left the "crazier it gets" sentence because it captures the attitude of most Moshers (by the way, my name is actually Bryn Mosher - honestly. You can Google it.) This article also needs some references. - badmonkey 21:23, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Speed Moshing 

message: Yeah, this article definitely needs more balance, I know that most of what I added was a bit on the negative side. The main problem is finding reliable sources, a problem which is horribly evident in the "origins" section, there's simply nothing backing it up that I can find. Anyway, if you read through the stuff I've referenced so far, I'm sure you can find some of the more positive aspects of the dance. I'm sure anyone who knows moshing knows that it's widely frowned upon, just as much as it is appreciated by others. As for rules/etiquette, once again, read through the references I've included and add more of them. I just haven't had time lately to trawl the web looking for nicer accounts of moshing. - Phorque 23:31, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Rewrote and reorganized the section on "Origins of the dance" and included references this time. Dpetley 03:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources and citations 

message: The article has only one currently. Can we work to include a few more, larger pictures of moshing in action? Also, the video link included is very poor quality and does not always load properly. Can we work to fix this? Dpetley 00:53, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The image included there is one I found on flickr released under a creative commons license. It was the most illustrative one I could find at the time, but have a check back every so often in case more crop up. - Phorque 05:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Damn, you should have said earlier and I would have taken some pictures from the festival I went to on saturday. I'll try and get some pictures with my old digicam on the 26th, it's a bit hard though because I don't want to get it broken. ≈ Maurauth (nemesis) 08:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I replaced one image on the page and added another, after finding them on flickr (CC, of course). I feel that they better illustrate moshing, and look nicer to boot. 205.209.84.248 (talk) 00:09, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

text: All the pictures with crowd surfers should be removed. How in the world is that supposed to work when people slam into each other? Surfers are directed around the pits... 141.70.81.151 (talk) 11:59, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures and other media of moshing 

message: === Death by Mosh ===
I think the article should include something about the deaths of people from Mosh Pit related incidents. For example: Jessica Michaelek who was killing during Limp Bizkits set at the Sydney Big Day Out.
Shouldn't the May 1996 Dublin, Ireland incident be mentioned in this article? See: Smashing Pumpkins/Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness third paragraph. --Robert Harrisontalk contrib 19:39, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have created a section but i only know of two bands that are against it so please add to it. 172.143.100.113 03:48, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Concerns About Mosh Safety

message: I think the article should include something about the deaths of people from Mosh Pit related incidents. For example: Jessica Michaelek who was killing during Limp Bizkits set at the Sydney Big Day Out.
Shouldn't the May 1996 Dublin, Ireland incident be mentioned in this article? See: Smashing Pumpkins/Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness third paragraph. --Robert Harrisontalk contrib 19:39, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death by Mosh 

message: there should be a section discussing or listing bands that are against moshing.
:I have created a section but i only know of two bands that are against it so please add to it. 172.143.100.113 03:48, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bands against moshing

message: I'm considering adding an "External Link" section including a link (www.moshnightclub.com) to a nightclub called "Mosh" in Leicester, UK.  Is this spam or not (hint: the reason I found this page in the first place was because I was wondering if there was any info on the club)?  Guinness 23:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mosh nightclub 

message: I removed this link, it seemed like a vanity page: there are no links in the article itself, and Google only turns up the Wikipedia page. I would put Moshpit(Band) up for speedy deletion myself but I'm not sure how to do that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aguasde13013 (talk • contribs) 15:34, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Moshpit (Band)]] 

message: Fuck man...what is that movie? Drunken kids birthday XD...please..be more realistic with moshpits from Heaven Shall Burn etc at youtube...
Yeah I have to agree. That movie is not representative of what this article is about. Frankly, I think a Madball or Hatebreed video needs to be added. It doesn't get more moshalicious than that shit. This video is just a bunch of college kids listening to pop punk and bouncing off of one another. Dpetley 22:55, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Movie 

message: some mention of different moshing acts such as the "wall of death" and "circle pits" should be made. Some one else please list some more specific types of moshing b/c i don't know of any others. (barring any types of hardcore dancing as there is a separate article for that)
Along with this perhaps an explanation of why people want to mosh. I think a answer of the why? question would be a good addition to this article because there are many people who don't understand the appeal of moshing and who generally curious because of it.
76.253.125.123 (talk) 06:27, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Types of moshing and why people mosh 

message: The reference to Lamb of God and walls of death is not necessary. It was not popularised by Lamb of God, and existed before then, as Randy Blythe states in this interview: http://www.metalunderground.com/news/details.cfm?newsid=12457  
In addition, I have found no references to Lamb of God actually being prohibited to incite the crowd to start a wall of death. The use of the word prohibited suggests under law they are no longer allowed to incite one, however, at the start of Black Label, Randy Blythe will always say "You know what to do." There are many references to this, from videos etc. This, to me, is incitement to a wall of death, and suggests that they are encouraging one. Therefore, this should be removed, as should the line 'Now, if the crowd starts chanting "Wall of Death!" during a show, Blythe will try to quiet them, shushing them at first, but if they persist, he will tell them to "Shut the fuck up!"' as I have found no references for it, and have never heard of this happening before. 
I recommend removing the whole of this section, and replacing it with a simple definition of a wall of death, or creating a new page for the Wall of Death, as has been done with circle pits.
I have therefore removed this part (25/05/10)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darz rixx (talk • contribs) 16:22, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lamb of God reference 

message: Moshing used to be a Hardcore style of dancing, that looked like jumping with big steps, and waving the arms around like a windmill (sometimes in a bridge called "the mosh-part), adopted by metalheads in Europe after the outcome of the S.O.D. album "Speak English or Die" , and the Anthrax video "Madhouse", also bringing NY Hardcore and Thrash-Metal into the mainstream EU Metal community, following up BNWOHM and Speedmetal (where the regular musical experience was Headbanging), and merging the Metal & Punkrockscene more and more together. (before Punks and Metalheads used to be pretty hostile against eachother)
Indeed moshing has its roots in the Punk dance Pogo, that derived from the Jamaican Ska & Skinhead/Trojan scene.
In New York those Punk, Metal and other styles of rough music scenes came peacefully together in the CBGB club where moshing is believed to be born.
I miss the part where S.O.D. singer and Anthrax roady Billy Milano is mentioned as the bringer of Mosh into the EU.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tonyp68 (talk • contribs) 09:21, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  S.O.D. 

message: Are there any bands that support moshing or encourage it? That might be an interesting contrast to the Criticism.--Metallurgist (talk) 05:18, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bands that support 

message: What About The Freddy? Are we sure the Pogo didn't derive from the Freddy? :)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.82.21.3 (talk) 14:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  What About The Freddy 

message: Wall of Death is rare, practiced only at certain metal shows, never at punk shows, and is not considered moshing by many punk fans.
I'm no expert but I witnessed a "wall of death" at a Sick of it All concert. Is this claim backed up by anything?
S3khat0um (talk) 22:01, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Wall of Death in Punk shows 

message: It would be worthwhile to include some of the results of this paper:
*Collective Motion of Moshers at Heavy Metal Concerts, Cornell University Department of Physics
Also, homepage for the research:
*
Javascript implementation of the simulation for mosh pits:
* 
--causa sui (talk) 22:50, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cornell university research paper on mosh pits 

message: Back in the early eighties 'moshing' was pretty much a synonym for headbanging, at least in the UK. Stub Mandrel (talk) 12:18, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins of the Term 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Is that chance, or are women excluded?  And/or, is this a Gay practice?
:There's a couple women in  and  which are both on the page. Issan Sumisu (talk) 14:22, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, yes, it is at least extremely andro-romantic, and for most participants it is sexually arousing. That is the one and only "purpose" of mosh-pits and the extreme form of crude, anti-technical "dance" that occurs in them--to achieve sexual (or at least romantic) satisfaction from close, perspiratory contact with other white men fueled by rage and expectations of performative masculinity. It is taboo, it is countercultural, to get semi-nude and simulate violent intercourse with other young white men--therefore, it satisifes the participants' rageful lust for "acceptable" artistry--they figuratively/literally "bang it out" with a mob of conforming, identical screaming white men. 2601:14F:4402:6800:DCF2:9AD9:94C1:5E78 (talk) 23:39, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  All the pictures seem to show men only 

message: "Scott Ian and Charlie Benante of Anthrax and Stormtroopers of Death have both been credited with the term originating from Vinnie Stigma of the New York hardcore band Agnostic Front. " who was the one who did it? PissAngle (talk) 14:06, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  this is unclear 

message: "US army marine Mike Marine"
He was in the US Army and he was also a US Marine whose last name happens to be "Marine"? So confusing. 75.177.20.180 (talk) 13:51, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Since I heard that origin story, my theory was always that "Mike Marine" was a nickname because his name was Mike and he was a marine. Nicknames like that were common in early punk, like Steve Ignorant, Rob Graves, or Alice Bag. The source just calls him Mike Marine, though, so there isn't a "real" name to give him. "Army" shouldn't be there though, the source just says marine, I'll change it. Issan Sumisu (talk) 15:35, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  What branch of service? 

message: It's plain to see that hardcore dancing has changed in recent years (perhaps gradually over the last decade) and has a different character than it did before. Whereas there was always some element of violence ("push pits" and such), pits at hardcore shows these days generally involves a few people dancing incredibly violently, and sort of provocatively "edging" their bodies to get closer to hitting other people. I know there's a small section on this page about "hardcore dancing" but I feel like it doesn't really accurately reflect what goes on at these shows. We have a lot more spin kicks and creative moves that have come be known as "karate".
I personally despise this style of dancing because it takes all the fun out of the pit for people who aren't doing "karate". I like bumping around and getting some other people's sweat on me; I don't like worrying that someone is gonna smack me in the face or spin kick me in the gut. I suppose nobody asked me, though. 
I would be curious if there is any journalism or literature about the emergence of this kind of "dance" culture, and I feel this article could be improved by providing further space for its discussion. 
One could even perhaps explore the cultural implications of this "dance" culture. For example, "push pits" are more communal, reflecting punk's inclusive attitude and by extension it's politically liberal perspective. On the other hand I would posit that "karate" dancing is more fundamentally masculine and conservative, and represents a veiled re-emergence of "skinhead" violence culture which went somewhat dormant after the 80's. 
Maxplean (talk) 06:09, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: There is, it's origins are traced in Rules of Rebellion: Slamdancing, Moshing, and the American Alternative Scene by William Tsitsos. In the paper, he interviews people involved in hardcore, and they generally agree it started in New York in the 1980s, and that by the time these interviews took place in 1999, it was at the most popular point it had ever been. It doesn't go into as much detail as you seem to be asking for, there isn't really a discussion of politics. There isn't many articles on hardcore dancing, because despite how it can seem at hardcore shows, it is very niche, also that the few that do refer to it, generally refer to it simply as "moshing" and you have to read between the lines to apply it. I don't have sources for this part, obviously this is WP:OR, so can't be in the article, but from my involvement in the hardcore scene for a long time, the specifically "karate" thing is generally thought to have originated from Chaka Malik from Burn and Orange 9mm in the late 80s, then that was mostly expanded upon by New Jersey bands like Bulldoze and Fury of Five in the 90s. Since then, there hasn't been much development of it past the general evolution you'd expect from new generations coming in and putting their own spins on everything. Issan Sumisu (talk) 09:25, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "karate"