Talk:Istanbul pogrom/Archive 1

message: Some of these areas need to be sourced so that we can go and check the stats for ourselves. For example where is the evidence that people were forcibly circumsicised and that men and women were raped? There were many uprisings and civil unrest in Turkey throught the 1950's to today and this doesn't seem to be pattern? Could we have some more detailed sources?
Secondly there seems to be some confusion for me with all these statistics and no source - Who are these "many"?  Please avoid "weasel words" and cite sources.  It's probably true that someone said this, but we should say who said what. These witness events are written word for word so they must have copied and pasted from somewhere...where?
Thirdly, I've emailed Mehmet Ali Birand as his article has been sourced to ask him what he agrees on and what he doesn't from this article and whether he wants to comment on it.
I am trying to avoid having this read like original resource and willing to contribute what I am willing to learn about. LOVELLtheLIONHEART 19:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Extra suggestions

message: I am making some suggestions for amendments to this article - and as such have not carried them out yet. After Damac's motives were questioned about the writing of this article (I added the title below to section off my talk) I suggest it is a relevant article - but needs amendments because it has been written in a subjective point of view (even if he says he has no axe to grind). He obviously has sympathies with certain groups - which is natural - if you check his user page.
1. Firstly it should be made clear on the article that that not only its neutrality but its facts are disputed too - so I would add totallydisputed in place of NPOV.
2. Secondly I would add as a note on the article that word pogrom was used as a concious decision by the writer himself (even though this seemingly goes against using wikipeadia as an original source in that he is putting his own slant on his research - yes the definition Wikipedia holds of a pogrom might with argument catch this in its net - but what do all the sources say) and that both Greek sources and Turkish sources and English ones for that matter do not use the word pogrom. We must not forget that this article might be used by people as verifiable sources - so merely adding the reason in a talk page is not sufficent in my opinon.
3. Thirdly it has to be put in historical context, that goverment of 1955 was close to fascisim in the sense that Arabic was also outlawed and that the religion was trying to be reformed - with the "call to prayer" in mosques sung in Turkish. But the government was a response BY THE PEOPLE THAT VOTED THEM IN to international events around them - and one can also assume that Greek provocation from Athens (as in Cyprus) was rife. What was Athens situation like in 1955?
4. Fourthly, both sides of the events must be told. Unfounded accusations have been made against the Orthodox Church I feel, and these need to be cleared up. 
5. Fifth point - Using Mehemt Ali Birand's article as a "source" for everything said above is obviously misleading when M.A Birand does not mention any deaths or casualities. I believe in Damac's good intention in that he did not intendingly mislead. I think it just shows that he came to this article he wanted to create with a certain point of view and just found evidence to back it up. I am going to guess (and forgive me if I am wrong) but he probably didnt't even read M.A. Brand's article and just thought the initial paragraph was enough - if you follow the link you'll see that you have to be a member to read the full article.
But once these are cleared up this could become a strong article to help inform and educate bothsides. 82.145.231.132 11:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestions

message: I am afraid the user Damac is a lier as he is Greek and does have a Greek POV. This article is full of lies and propaganda and the usage of the word pogrom is used to incite racial hatred. peopel should not use Wikipedia for there own racial sensitivities. Wikipedia is not here for such hooliganism. Though as more Greeks inflitrate the international satge - such as tennis - even hooliganism will become prevalent there. I will do my own objective research on this issue and changes will be made. I take serious issue with many disputed events that are being recorded here as historical FACT. Or apart from "not being" a Greek is Damac a learned historian, too? 
I will also bring forth reasons for the riots, which are not made clear, such as retaliations for the Greek governmental perscution of Thrace Turks, where they cannot praticse their religion, women kidnapped, raped and forced to change their names and religion .
Greece has been taken many time to the European court of human rights on this matter. I will prepare  an article on these issues. It is time that the truth really was written. 82.145.231.79 03:07, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Damac's motives questioned

message: Look here:  (in greek) Michalis Famelis 13:35, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I'm aware of that. I'd seen some info in the Greek newspapers but can't fully understand it. Would you mind incorporating references to the Jews and Armenians into the article?--Damac 13:52, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am interested in doing it some time in the near future. What hinders me is a rampant  examinations period! Also, I only have a Kathimerini interview of Dilek Guven (the above link) whith only a small reference to the Jews and Armenians. And I don't quite know where to look for more info. More research is in order...Michalis Famelis 15:29, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 09:42, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Not only against the Greeks but against the Jews and the Armenians, too

message: :*Support. The move to 6-7 September Uprisings was done without discussion and justified on the false allegation that the author of the article is Greek, which is false. Damac 09:58, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Support. It is spin to describe a state-supported action as an "uprising".Sysin 07:18, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

text: *Support to revert the move, although I feel there must be further discussion as to whether the title "instabul pogrom" is NPOV, as apparently there are people who dispute it. There is at least the need to clarify if "pogrom" is an NPOV term. -- Michalis Famelis 18:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

text: * I Support making the title of this entry "Istanbul Pogrom". The government seems to have enabled the rioters and mob to perform their violence. Nygdan 04:08, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

text: *Object. Only references included which refer to pogrom are of Greek origin. See my reasons below. --A.Garnet 14:45, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

text: *Object. The article is completely subjective to the Greek point of view - and I do not merely object to the title being reverted back. Plus I feel there is some victimaisation going on against the User Blue Sea. Where I fear he expressed his thoughts in the wrong manner, I agree with his reasoning. Thje original article does not read objectively and is NPOV. I feel we are damaging Wikipedia with such instances. I am now beginning to question other contributions of Damac. 206.207.175.69 16:22, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Voting

message: Shouldn't we consider renaming the article? Both Istanbul Pogrom and Istanbul Riots are open to the accusation of POV; and, more important, they're not much used by scholars and sources in general to refer to the events. Instead I propose naming it Events of September, which is how Greeks and Turks seem commonly to refer to it (Septembriana); after all, it's not up to wikipedia to give strength to little used terms.--Aldux 17:09, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some do; but the title is far from being an immediately recognizable way to refer to the events. Our gol should be to search the standard name, the most used one; I can't help finding strange objecting to using the name that both people use. Or are we going to say that since the Greek article is titled Septembriana it has an anti-Greek intention? After all, it wasn't me who first proposed this possibility, but a Greek editor, User:Michalis Famelis.--Aldux 17:29, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If it is internationally more accepted, I could certainly live with "Septembriana", but the event was absolutely no less a pogrom. - Gilgamesh 19:40, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Personally, I have no doubt the event was a pogrom; the question is if we shouldn't prefer Events of September, a name which has a long history beside, or Istanbul Pogrom, which isn't really a very common name judging from the hits.--Aldux 19:49, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Name change

message: I deleted this statement: "During the Second World War, Greeks, Jews, and Armenians were subjected to penal laws and arbitrary detention in labour camps."
Maybe someone can educate me--I've read this before, but I've found almost no sourcing.  If this is true, I'd like to see it cited, and perhaps you could update this on one of the Rep. of Turkey pages too.  Until then, I think we should dwell on the persecution which we can verify.  There's enough of it. --Hashshashin 01:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: WWII Persecution

message: I am really puzzled that this is mentioned twice..Read this and tell me whatever does it mean  between 13 and 16 Greeks and at least one Armenian (including two Orthodox clerics) died during or after the pogrom as a result of beatings and arsons.[2] Atleast one armenian including two clerics..kindly put a correction to it..or explain what it means..how one person means two clerics..??
:The "(including two Orthodox clerics)" refers to the complete set of numbers mentioned, i.e. Greeks and Armenians. Two clerics died as a result of being attacked during the pogrom: one Greek and one Armenian.--Damac 20:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian Deaths