Talk:List of British Jewish entertainers

message: I posed this question some years ago -- are they REALLY Jewish? Anyone know?   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.213.166.253 (talk) 12:53, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Freddie Starr, Mick Hucknall, Billy Duffy, Crispian Mills and Pete Burns

message: What purpose does it serve? People arguing about whether george michael or orlando bloom are jewish or not. Why is that anyone's business? They either are or they're not and it has no relevance to anything. I really don't think there's any reason for such a pointless page to exist.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.155.223.170 (talk) 09:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What's the point of this page?

message: I think we need to remove Orlando Bloom.  His surname comes from his stepfather, he has no Jewish ancestry, and has never practiced Judaism (he's currently a Buddhist).  See his Wiki article for more details.  Indisciplined 20:46, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How do we know that he has no Jewish ancestry? I've seen nothing on his (biological) father's ancestry at all. In any case, the sourced cited, The Jewish Chronicle, refers to him as Jewish, which passes the criteria at the top of Talk:List of British Jews Mad Jack 05:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How old is the Jewish Chroinicle source quoted? It may now be out of date considering the recent revelations about Bloom's parentage. Indisciplined 18:16, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the citation says September 15, 2006 - fairly recent. Mad Jack 18:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's an interesting point.  I'm not sure that this source is factually correct given the information about Bloom's parentage that has now come into the public domain. If the definitions used for the list become this broad, it's in real danger of becoming meaningless.  Do we have any other sources that could clear the issue up? Indisciplined 18:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the only criteria we have (and should have) is listed on the top of Talk:List of British Jews. Which is that we have a reliable source that explicitly says someone is Jewish (and British), as opposed to their father, mother, etc. Mad Jack 18:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Evan if the source quote might be factually incorrect?  Sounds like a hostage to fortune. Indisciplined 18:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But how do we know if it's factually incorrect? Besides, WP:V means verifiability, not truth, so I guess all of Wikipedia is technically a "hostage to fortune" in one sense. Mad Jack 19:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

text: We do know that the Jewish Chronicle, one of the World's oldest national newspapers, regards him as Jewish.  Nobody has ever produced a source that says he isn't Jewish, so it violates WP:NOR to speculate about what religion his father is.--20.138.246.89 15:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

text: We have a recent citation - as noted above, September 15, 2006.  It is absurd to say that we should delete sourced information from a reliable source because it might not be up to date.  bring a source that says that he isn't Jewish and we can discuss.  And George Michael says that his mother was Jewish - it violates WP:NOR to deny this.--20.138.246.89 10:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

text: "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material" - firstly, a citation from an established national newspaper is not a poor source.  Secondly, there is nothing contentious here.  As for George Michael, thete is a quote: "Michael explained that his mom, Lesley, and her family were Jewish, but felt a need to hide it."--Brownlee 22:21, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

text: George Michael says explicitly that his mother was Jewish.  And since when do you need a statement from the person himself about his ethnicity?--R613vlu 13:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: He has also described his mother as Jewish.  It is original research to go further than that.  As for Orlando Bloom, Wikipedia reports verifiable facts, not speculation.--Brownlee 18:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Orlando Bloom

message: The only proof given that he's supposedly Jewish is that he was involved in a documentary about Jewish comedians. He's *worked* with a lot of Jewish comedians! I've never seen him say anything about his ancestry or religion, other than that his father was a Mason (from his autobiography). So I'd recommend taking him off the list unless there's more I don't know about.
Bangdrum 04:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Mad Jack 08:08, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barry Cryer 

message: Freddie Starr claims a jewish mother. Does that mean he is Jewish and to be included here? Im not sure if the list only records those attending synagogue, ethnic jews, or some other unknown criteria to make a brit jewish. It was reversed on the Freddie Starr page which is why im back to have it clarified. Thank you.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.29.233.119 (talk) 19:19, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Freddie Starr

message: Shouldn't Eric Morecambe (born Eric Bartholomew) be listed under `Comedians'? Barney Bruchstein (talk) 18:13, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Eric Morecambe

message: Article needs BLP tag, not just a hidden note most people won't see. (I didn't.) Plus someone just created a bunch of external links with numbers which certainly will be a mess to clean up. Anyone have a macro? CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:34, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Two tags

message: This is a great page, but needs tidying up. Some artists are repeated twice, and the catch all - "Others" includes some major and minor stars.  Nigella Lawson and Heston Blumenthal, but also Caprice?
On a more subjective point, the page also understates the real importance of the contribution of Jewish entertainers to British culture - artistic and cultural over the last 90 years.  Can someone right something more positive about the overall contribution of all these artists?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.158.5.47 (talk) 16:31, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article needs to be tidied-up 

message: Marianne Faithful (120.149.118.242 (talk) 10:34, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: OH and...

message: Adam Ant, Clive Langer of Deaf School, Malcolm McLaren, and Siouxsie Sioux
Adam Ant is not Jewish -- neither is Siouxsie Sioux.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.183.180.228 (talk) 17:25, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: AND LET'S NOT FORGET...

message: Alex Clare! (120.149.119.245 (talk) 07:48, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: And...

message: Gilad Atzmon (120.149.119.245 (talk) 12:03, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: And...

message: Chaz Jankel, Ronnie Scott, Joseph Scott, Geraldo, Sydeny Kyhee, Joe Loss, Harry Roy, Billy Astell. Hary Gold, Ivor Mairank and Troy Crombie!!!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.149.120.2 (talk) 11:14, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: AND!...

message: George Michael  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.149.112.116 (talk) 09:12, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: AND!!!...

message: Please, talk to me calmly and rationally I gave a list of British Jewish musicians and I gave them sources and references
yet you still go and delete more than half the names I put a lot of time and effort into that. So why did you delete them why? Huh? (120.149.124.83 (talk) 12:01, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please, talk to me 

message: Half-Jewish, British, not on the list? any particular reason? ...SomethingElse... (talk) 02:15, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Mark Knopfler]]? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Shouldn't she be on this page?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.182.67.26 (talk) 14:52, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Sister Bliss is Jewish

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message: Sophie Winkleman has a gentile mother and was raised as an Anglican. Her father has declared himself a non-practising Jew, and attended an Anglican school. Not that it matters, but I thought that Wikipedia prided itself on accuracy! 115.87.153.220 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 14:14, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sophie Winkleman 

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Reference named "Obit":
From Alice Herz-Sommer: Greenberg, Louise. 
From Jenny Diski: 
From David Rose (songwriter): 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 01:41, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:List of British Jewish entertainers]] 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :List of British Jewish entertainers's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "frs":
From Oliver Zangwill: 
From Sigmund Freud: 
From History of the Jews in Azerbaijan: 
From J. D. Bernal: 
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thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:List of British Jewish entertainers]] 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :List of British Jewish entertainers's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Guardian obit":
From Kay Mellor: 
From André Deutsch: 
Reference named "LarkinGE":
From David Rose (songwriter): 
From Harry Roy: 
From The Heptones: 
From Dead or Alive (band): 
From Deaf School: 
From Chris Blackwell: 
From Carl Davis: 
From Mick Farren: 
From Leon Rosselson: 
From 801 (band): 
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thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:List of British Jewish entertainers]] 

message: The definition of entertainer as  used in this listthis list now includes;
Which is ludicrous. Entertainers are people who entertain. Social reformers, journalists, intellectuals, painters, photographers, fashion designers, sculptors, entrepreneurs, however socially valuable, do not entertain. They enlighten, inform, argue, etc, but do not deliver "amusement or diversion" (Merriam-Webster) or, worse are "a person whose job is to sing, dance or perform for people so that they enjoy themselves" (Oxford learners dictionary). By broadening the definition this much, the list, basically, degenerates into a list of Jewish public figures, which does not fit the title. Kleuske (talk) 09:04, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The current definition of an "entertainer". 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :List of British Jewish entertainers's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Guardian":
From Satire: 
From Enid Marx: 
From Mick Hucknall: 
From Ken Adam: 
From Alan Coren: 
From Coca-Cola: 
From Don Arden: 
From Bank of England: 
From Amy Winehouse: 
From James Rhodes (pianist): 
From Robert Maxwell: 
From Gilad Atzmon: 
From Andy Hobsbawm: 
From Fermin Rocker: Whitehead, Andrew: Fermin Rocker: Painter from a family of London anarchists. The Guardian October 26, 2004. Retrieved October 11, 2007.
From University of Cambridge: 
From Sam Wanamaker: "Hard-headed Romantic", The Guardian, London, December 20, 1993
From 2010 New Year Honours: 
From Generation X: 
From David and Simon Reuben: 
From Richard Sharp (BBC chairman): 
From Institute of Practitioners in Advertising: 
From Michael Samuels (linguist): Guardian Education 15 December 2010 Michael Samuels obituary
From Mick Farren: 
From David Graeber: 
From Lionel Blue: 
From Miriam Karlin: 
From Martin Bernal: Martin Bernal obituary, the Guardian, 21 June 2013, accessed 4 June 2015
From Arnold Wesker: 
Reference named "stereo":
From EMI: 
From Isaac Shoenberg: 
From Alan Blumlein: 
Reference named "Debretts":
From Nicholas Hytner: "Sir Nicholas Hytner Authorised Biography" , Debrett's People of Today. Retrieved 2 November 2012.
From Michael Freedland: "Michael Freedland, Esq", Debrett's
Reference named "MT45":
From Society for the Promotion of New Music: Carner, Mosco. The Committee for the Promotion of New Music, in The Musical Times, Vol. 86, No. 1232 (October, 1945), pp. 297-299
From Francis Chagrin: 
Reference named "family":
From Kay Mellor: 
From Nicola Mendelsohn: 
From EastEnders: "It's got murder, a stalker, incest (kind of), and bulimia. What more", The Independent. Retrieved 6 May 2007.
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 11:24, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:List of British Jewish entertainers]] 

message: I have just reverted a mass deletion of content (diff) by @Binksternet. This was radical and the criteria used seemed to go against the definition of what being Jewish is at Jews - "Generally, in modern secular usage, Jews include three groups: people who were born to a Jewish family regardless of whether or not they follow the religion, those who have some Jewish ancestral background or lineage (sometimes including those who do not have strictly matrilineal descent), and people without any Jewish ancestral background or lineage who have formally converted to Judaism and therefore are followers of the religion." Take, for example, one of the deleted entries, Fenella Fielding. She was born to Jewish parents - so meets the first of the criteria above. Her 90th birthday and her death were both featured in the Jewish Chronicle, the first article mentioning that she celebrates Passover with her brother. So why was she deleted? I feel that the very strict definition applied by Binksternet - those that practice the religion - is too strict and goes against what is applied in nearly all other articles on Jewish people. So per WP:BRD, Binksternet was bold, but I have reverted and now initiated a discussion. 10mmsocket (talk) 06:57, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia's categories divide Jewishness into two parts: those who embrace Jewish culture or religion, and those who have Jewish descent and nothing more. This article's inclusion criteria should clear out those with mere descent which will have the side benefit of reducing its bloated size. Whatever we decide on inclusion criteria should be described explicitly in the introduction, with a hidden comment reminder at the top of each section.  Kleuske's talk page comment from last July is still relevant: we should also be removing entrepreneurs and writers who are not entertainers. Binksternet (talk) 17:26, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It's somewhat superfluous to state I agree with Binksternet, here, per my comment last july, but in the mean time the bloat has gotten bloatier. Having looked it over (without a deep dive into all removed entries, but still sampling a fair number) I fully support Binksternet's action. I was tempted to just revert 10mmsocket revert, but this is, I think, the better approach. Kleuske (talk) 20:49, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that. Regarding the idea that someone can be labelled Jewish because of their parentage rather than their own beliefs or actions—the Nazis ruined that. I will never consider someone to be Jewish solely because they had a maternal grandmother who was Jewish.  Our over-enthusiastic IP friend from Korea (using Special:Contributions/175.203.93.215, Special:Contributions/2002:A398:D27E:0:0:0:0:0/64, Special:Contributions/220.123.24.0/21, Special:Contributions/163.152.208.0/21, Special:Contributions/211.194.120.0/21, Special:Contributions/119.203.248.0/21 and Special:Contributions/119.204.88.0/21) has shown that they follow the old school definitions. I think we've progressed beyond that; I don't think it is appropriate to construct a Jewish label for a person if they don't identify as such. Binksternet (talk) 21:07, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: So what about the aforementioned Fenella Fielding? 10mmsocket (talk) 21:45, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Fielding should stay in as you argued so well. Binksternet (talk) 00:00, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I am going to make a second "mass deletion" but with Fenella Fielding staying in. If you see any others who should stay in, feel free to return them. I'm also removing non-entertainers such as producers, directors, writers, managers, impresarios, critics, painters, trustees, academics, patrons, theorists, activists, barristers, etc.  Common-and-garden radio and TV news readers should be removed, but I am not going to spend the time to ferret out these names from the list of broadcasters. They are perhaps entertaining at times, but arguably not "entertainers". Professional journalists should not be considered entertainers without sources describing an individual as such, for instance Jerry Springer who started a tabloid TV show. Poets who read their works aloud might be entertainers if sources support the label. The big pruning action brought the bloat from 386 kb to a reasonable 143 kb. Binksternet (talk) 20:43, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mass deletion