Talk:Liberty dollar (private currency)/Archive 1

message: I have attempted to trim the article a bit.  I have removed several opinion pieces and moved apologetics snippets for both sides to their appropriate article sections.  Wikipedia is not for articles that read "Liberty Dollars are (supposedly bad thing here).  However, (supposedly good thing totally unrelated to paragraph or article section)." or "(Insert entire section essentially repeating things already stated five times, but worded to make your POV explicit)."
NPOV does NOT mean bloating the article or embracing bad grammar and style so that both sides can wage a thinly-veiled POV argument throughout the article, as if this was a thread on a forum.  It means writing a good article that lets the reader use his own judgement without hitting him over the head with what you hate or love about the Liberty Dollar.
I have also updated the article to reflect that gold LD are no longer one-to-one for USD.
— 131.230.133.186 21:12, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article trimming 

message: It's true that the spot price of silver is currently less than $10, but the face value of a liberty dollar includes more than the price of silver. What makes a $10 silver liberty worth $10 is the price of silver + cost of minting and printing.
The raw materials in a one oz. silver liberty is less than $10, just like the raw materials in a car are worth less than $15,000; or the raw materials in a house (lumber, concrete, metal, etc.) are worth far less than the realtor's asking price. Overhead, admin costs and other factors increase the value of a product. The liberty dollar works the same way.
I'm a user of the liberty dollar. Further research will show that the liberty dollar is legal, which the secret service itself has already concluded. Moviecritic
: The Liberty Dollar is worth $10 if and only if you can sell it for ten US dollars, overhead costs notwithstanding. If all you can get from the market with them is $8 per coin, then the $10 coins are really only worth $8. $8 is the current market value of a US Silver Eagle coin on EBay, which has equivalent silver content to a NORFED coin, and should therefore be equivalent to the NORFED coin.
:: I don't know if you have fully investigated this. From what I have observed on eBay, 1 oz. NORFED Silver Libertys with a face value of $10 usually sell for $10 USD or more. That is because they are designed to be used as currency, not bullion. I have read this countless times on the NORFED website. If a merchant will accept a $10 Silver Liberty for $10 USD in goods then doesn't that give it a value of $10 USD in that transaction? Remember, this is a free market currency, people are not forced to accept them (unlike US dollars because they are legal tender).
::I just checked on eBay and couldn't find any signs of them selling above $10, except special proofs, etc. Can yuo provide a specific link to support that? Thanks, -Willmcw 03:34, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
::Both these ridiculous arguments stem, consciously or not, from the Marxist labor theory of value--a long-debunked concept whose major contribution to modern popular misconception is the erroneous notion that cost of inputs has anything at all to do with the value (not price--that is a related, but separate, concept--which is also not affected by costs of inputs except in a very roundabout way that I can explain if you want) of the object.  They do not.  There is no such thing as an "objective value" in the economic sense (value in the philosophical sense is, of course, an entirely different story).  In fact, it is precisely the subjectivity of value that enables transactions to take place--you buy the loaf of bread because you value it more highly than three dollars, and the store takes the three dollars because it values them more highly than it values a loaf of bread.  But the value is entirely subjective, and dependent on (a) the entity in question's other remaining wants and desires; (b) the relative importance of its desire for the good in question relative to all its others; and (c) the wants and desires it has already satisfied that enable it to have something to exchange for this want.
In other words, people in general don't care how much it cost to make something.  They only care how useful it is to them.  Kurt Weber 19:03, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not a hoax. 

message: "Business opportunity" is the most NPOV term that I can think of to describe this arrangement, where plain old U.S. money is changing hands:
*A Liberty Associate is an individual, business or organization that has signed a contract with NORFED and gets the Liberty Dollar at a discount. As an Associate there are no dues, no meetings, no obligations, and no time requirements. Associates are not required to physically redeem the paper currency for gold and silver, since that is handled by NORFED. Nor are Associates required to exchange the Liberty Dollar back to US Dollars. It only takes $250 to become an Associate. As a new Associate you immediately get $100 Liberty Dollars back, your referrer gets $100 for sponsoring you, and NORFED retains $50 for administration. So you spent $250, got back $100 and are out $150. But as NORFED is opposed to Associates being in debt as much as our country being in debt, we ask you to sponsor two new Associates. And since you get $100 for every Associate you refer, just sign up two friends, and you actually made $50 while doing what is good for your friends and the country! Refer more Associates - make more money.
*NORFED reserves the right to change the terms of this Contract at any time with a 30-day notice, either in writing or in digital form, provided to an existing Associate.
*The applicant is entitled to exchange Federal Reserve Notes (USD) for American Liberty Dollars (ALD) at the current Associate Exchange Rate that is posted on the Liberty Dollar website at http://www.libertydollar.org. Both parties acknowledge that Exchange Rates change daily and are subject to change without notice.
*My $2500 Plan
*If you are attending the new Liberty Dollar University 4 (LDU4)… not only have we turbo-charged the RCO program into a franchise-like business model, but LDU4 is also your opportunity to learn first hand by creating your own business plan with the new 150 page Workbook created by John Franklin, MBA and PhD. And WORKbook it is! John has an impressive record as an educator and as LDU4's cheerleader he will take you from zero to 180 MPH in three days and set you on a course to making $15,000 to $4.8 million. If you are serious about the Liberty Dollar and "Making money, doing good, and having fun" appeals to you, take LDU4 before becoming a RCO. And be sure to bring some money, as the first year is now only $500, so you can sign up to become a RCO and attend the private RCO Congress on Friday, the day after LDU4 and before the Liberty Dollar Fair.
These links make it appear that this is a for-profit business, rather than an idealistic non-profit cooperative that some of the text might lead one to believe. The "monthly report" was last updated in 2004, and the copyright date on all of the other pages is 2004, both of which imply inactivity. The bottom line is that this article needs to be edited with a better appreciation of the reliability of the source. -Willmcw 07:08, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
:See also this Usenet thread: Liberty Dollar (Norfed) about to be devalued 50%  It's not clear that the devaluation took place, but a number of other important questions are raised about how this scheme is organized. -Willmcw 23:57, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
::Regarding the business opportunity: another editor is perhaps correct that it is not a pure multi-level marketing system, since associates only make a one-time payment. The more appopriate business model may be a franchise, or sales territory model. It appears that RCOs are awarded exclusive territories. It isn't clear what sort of payments or fees that RCOs pay to NORFED. Does anyone have a reason why we shouldn't call it a franchise? Or can anyone suggest a better descripion for the RCOs? Thanks, -Willmcw June 30, 2005 06:07 (UTC)
The requirements for being an RCO are listed on the Liberty Dollar website.  Among other things, they put up $1,000 for a yearly charter and receive the LDs at an even greater discount than associates would.  They are not referred to as a franchise because there is no official franchise plan yet.  This is primarily because the RCO concept is still fairly new.  But they do operate on the same principle of a franchise. The only hard and fast requirements for operating a territory is that associate and official merchants order from the RCO that is designated for their area and that RCOs don't interfere with another RCO's territory.  CFVertigo June 27, 2006
::Thanks for that info. Do we know what discount RCOs receive? That'd help flesh out the nuts and bolts of this. -Will Beback 19:22, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A "business opportunity"

message: moved from main article, appears to be a comment
: There is a word for this in economics. It is called "debasing the currency". NORFRAUD carries on about the evils of fiat money, but the fact is that the only resemblence between NORFRAUD 6 bit bucks and a hard currency is purely coincidental.
:For the record: hard currencies are convertible on demand for full value with other currencies at the equivalent value in bullion. NORFRAUD 6 bit bucks fail the most basic test of a fully backed currency, despite their wild claims and rants about the evils of the federal reserve system.
: If people want to pay a 30% mark up to NORFRAUD to show how much they hate the Federal Reserve, that's their perogative. Fools have a constitutionally protected right to be parted from their money. However, NORFRAUD and its POV are against wiki rules for vanity advertising. Stirling Newberry 02:08, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New comment 

message: : Attention to the People in Here Who Just Do Not Get It:  You'll have a hard time convincing the serious Wiki-pedia people in here that your statements (which include phrases like "NORFRAUD" and "scam and Fraud"), edits, or additions are well-founded or reasonable.  I can't believe that the negative Liberty-Dollar people in here don't seem to get it.  Liberty Dollars are NOT about investing in silver.  If you want to do that, go invest in silver bullion.  Its that simple.  Instead, the Liberty Dollar is an attempt to provide Americans with a currency that is actually backed by real commodity, and not at the mercy of bureacratic bankers, Saudis, the Chinese government, or inflation.  You see, every extra federal reserve dollar that the US government chooses to print makes the federal reserve notes that you and I hold worth consistently less.  Since we were taken totally off the gold standard, by holding federal reserve notes, you are basically handing your money to scheisters who expect us to believe that our paper is worth whatever they say it is.  Then you have liberty dollars, which are redeemable in actual silver pieces.  Granted, the silver is not worth ten dollars, but it maybe in the future.  I certainly don't see it going down much further in value though.  In fact, if you search Warren Buffett's investing portfolio, you'll see he began to buy silver a few years ago when it hit rock bottom.  However, in regards to federal reserve notes, I'm reminded of the old adage of Yogi Berra, in that "A nickel ain't worth a dime no more."  The Liberty dollars, over time, will retain value as the dollar continues to sag.  So hold onto your fed notes if you want, but I'd rather give my money to, and participate in a system run by, people who can truly see what is going on with our currency.
::Can you please clarify some of the questions remaining? Such as how convertible it is with other "currencies", whether NORFED will accept it in payment for services, etc? Unlike other currencies, this one expires and is issued by a shadowy company that stipulates it can change the terms at any time. The exact nature of this company and its product need to be specified, not just their advertising claims. Thanks, -Willmcw 03:48, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
:::Redeem them for silver and sell the silver.  Kurt Weber 19:09, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ignorant Statements