Talk:Punk rock/Archive 5

message: Where is article about alternative punk?? Alternative punk is also a genre of punk music. Nice day! Sk8tar, 3. august 2007
:I've certainly never heard of it, but you're free to write an article if you like.--Gimme danger 15:13, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative Punk!!! 

message: OK, at the bottom of this article there used to be a little box filled with all of the many subgenres of punk. now it's subgenres of rock, and a few of the punk subgenres are stuck at the top in the pink-flavored box. I definitely liked the Punk subgenre box a lot better than the Rock one. Now there's no way to see all of the subgenres. Maybe as a compromise we could bring the punk box back and keep the rock one???
but... i dont know how to bring that punk box back. cause i'm a n00b to the wiki.
CrayZsaaron 00:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subgenres 

message: i think there should be something on the co-opting of the term 'punk rock' by skate bands as apposed to other bands influenced by the movement. It seems quite a big 90's issue. --79.64.70.180 11:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  suggestion 

message: Hoponpop69 17:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Shouldn't "The Punk Revival" be a section instead of a subsection?

message: i Love Green Day. Some Say that it is an emo band but its not. I'm not emo and I love them.--71.179.73.197 21:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Green Day 

message: There are some grammar issues here: it doesn't really make sense for "music" to be "short" or for something to "express...distinctive clothing styles."P4k 01:31, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right you are. Copyedited.—DCGeist 01:44, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.P4k 01:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  second paragraph of lead 

message: * This section of the discussion moved forward to current Talk:Punk rock Wwwhatsup (talk) 18:12, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Some of the free images we could be using in this article instead

message: It should be obvious that Frank Zappa's disdain for punk rock is not something that needs to be covered in an encyclopedia article on the topic. As with any substantial musical genre, many people love it and many people have no time for it--such expressions of taste are hardly worthy of encyclopedic note. The editor who has attempted to install this section sought something similar back in March (), not long after the entry had passed its Featured Article Review. This highly POV section received no support then; I would be surprised if it received any now. It has been reverted.—DCGeist 22:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ha. What was it Lou Reed said about Zappa? "The single most talentless individual on earth" or words to that effect. Maybe there should be a "Punk criticisms" section in the Zappa article.  Grant | Talk 14:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pseudo "CRITICISM" section 

message: We have been over this before and the consensus is that Television were never a punk band, although they were closely associated with the NY punk scene. I don't see how anyone could day they had a punk sound, even when Dick Hell was in them. Grant | Talk 10:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, we have been through this before. We are careful in the article never to flatly state something like "Television played punk rock." On the other hand, there is no historical argument over the facts: Television was central to the development of the punk scene, the punk movement, the punk look, the punk DIY ethic, and one of its founding members was crucial in the devlopment of what became recognized as the characteristic punk sound. The article currently reflects that history quite accurately. Remember, as our well-sourced sentence at the end of the section explains, at the time "punk" began to be used to describe what has developing at CB's and Max's Kansas City, there was as yet no characteristic sound: "punk rock was not yet defined by the standards of minimalism, speed, and arrogance that later emerged."—DCGeist 16:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Run that past me one more time...there was no punk sound at the time so Television could be considered punk? Some punks at the time liked Neil Young, Bob Marley, Pere Ubu and Motorhead. Maybe they were punk too then. Grant | Talk 16:58, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll run it past you one more time. We are careful in the article never to flatly state something like "Television played punk rock." On the other hand, there is no historical argument over the facts: Television was central to the development of the punk scene, the punk movement, the punk look, the punk DIY ethic, and one of its founding members was crucial in the devlopment of what became recognized as the characteristic punk sound. The article currently reflects that history quite accurately. What is the statement in the article that you have a problem with? (And, yes, maybe Pere Ubu and Motorhead were punk.)—DCGeist 17:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Television (again) 

message: :Image:Buzzcocks Fast Cars.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 08:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Buzzcocks Fast Cars.ogg

message: I see someone using it as a source in this article to back up these claims, and I can't help but question the validity of the source.Hoponpop69 00:35, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good Question. It got mixed reviews on Amazon, and seems to be used extensively throughout this article as a source. If it is like Legs' "Please Kill Me," then it definately isn't a very good source. Have a read at http://www.amazon.com/We-Got-Neutron-Bomb-L/dp/0609807749/ref=sr_1_1/002-1278908-8149639?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194221067&sr=8-1 (220.238.161.58 00:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks for weighing in. Can we get some more consensus on this?Hoponpop69 01:58, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no reason not to consider Spitz and Mullen's We Got the Neutron Bomb: The Untold Story of L.A. Punk a reliable source by Wikipedia standards. As for the specific facts in question: The Go-Go's were definitely part of the early L.A. punk scene. X did not have outstanding commerical success, but Under the Big Black Sun, More Fun in the New World, and Ain't Love Grand! did all chart in the Billboard Top 100.—DCGeist 18:23, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I see no problem with these facts, though they may need some rewording.  Indeed, the GoGo's were a "punk" band early on (many bands changed genre's throughout their careers, cv. Fleetwood Mac, The Lemonheads, and Genesis to name a few).  Also, while X may never be considered "mainstream" they did have a national appeal, and did have charting singles and albums.  It certainly puts them on the same kind of territory as, say, the Velvet Underground; sigificant to the genre on a national level despite a lack of commercial success.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 07:30, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Is a book that claims X was a succesful mainstream band, and that The Go-Go's were part of the LA punk scene reliable?

message: :Image:Johnny Thunders & The Heartbreakers Chinese Rocks.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 00:00, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Rationale corrected.—DCGeist 00:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Johnny Thunders & The Heartbreakers Chinese Rocks.ogg

message: There is no question about the consensus historiography of punk: New York precedes the UK. As a globally minded encyclopedia, I believe we've appropriately featured Australia in between the two larger subsections--highly defensible also on the basis of "first punk recording." The small local scenes that emerged around the U.S. in 1976 are in a somewhat ambiguous position--they are very distinct from the original New York movement, but they are not commonly described as "second wave," which most sources identify as occurring in 1977. Alphabetization by header is clearly not a proper basis for resequencing this history. I believe the structure I've used is the clearest, most historically accurate, and most in accord with our major sources.—DCGeist (talk) 19:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sequence of early history 

message: I have no doubt that Spylab intends well, but his recent "copyedit" of the New York City subsection--aside from the fine renaming--introduces a  number of problems and infelicities that will have to be reverted. A small sample:
*redundant Wikilinks to terms such as New York Dolls and CBGB, which appear immediately above in the closely related "Pre-history" section
*superfluous Wikilinks to common dictionary terms such as jazz and feminist
*elimantion of valuable quote helping place Television in continuity between garage rock and the later, artier forms that would characterize post-punk
*inexcusable mauling of direct quote on Richard Hell's appearance
*repeated Wikilinking of CBGB within this subsection
*unnecessary and redundant gloss of Punk as a "magazine," which is both clear from context and stated in the immediately preceding "Origin of the term punk" subsection
*infelicitous introduction of form "including:" (in proper American English syntax, the colon in such a sentence specifically eliminates the need for "including")
*elimination of valuable quote characterizing Voidoids sound and approach
*improper change of "among them" to "band such as"--no, not "such as"; those three bands specifically
There are a few "copyedits" that are not objectively this bad, but not one of them is necessary. The article will be best served by reversion of the entire attempt.—DCGeist (talk) 22:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  So-called copyediting 

message: Myself I'd like to see a mention of The Deviants, Pink Fairies and possibly Hawkwind in there. They created the shambolic anarchic DIY situationist UK tradition. Wwwhatsup (talk) 21:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good. I was thinking the Brit protopunk graf needed a little plumping up for balance. And I wish we could quote "shambolic anarchic DIY situationist UK tradition." I'll do a little research to locate sourcing for the bands you mention as punk progenitors. How certain are you (or aren't you) about Hawkwind?—DCGeist (talk) 21:53, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I believe it must be documented that Lydon is a Hawkwind fan. It's pretty well known. The Sex Pistols have been encoring with Silver Machine recently. Mick Farren's book 'Give The Anarchist A Cigarette' details the Deviants history of anti-social behavior. They put out an independent, basically DIY, single 'Let's Loot The Supermarket' way back in '67. Hawkwind and The Fairies started playing out for free in 1970 in direct mockery of music industry principles. Farren imported the MC5 to play at Phun City and then provoked the crowd to the tear down the fences at the IOW fest. The Fairies anthem of the time 'Do It' has since been re-recorded by Henry Rollins. In the early 70s Fairies gigs were often anarchic drug-crazed riots. They were always getting banned, and then re-booked at double the money. They set a template. In 1976 it was the money that Stiff made with their 2nd release - a reformed PF record - that financed the Damned's 'New Rose'. PF guitarist Larry Wallis then produced The Adverts. He was an original member of Motorhead (ex Hawkwind) who provided a greaser counterpoint to punk. By 1976 the underground press had folded and many writers had got jobs with the music weeklies. Farren had become features editor at NME, and was promoting the whole gonzo rock ethic. Hippie chick Caroline Coon had taken over at Melody Maker, and her pal Vivien Goldman at Sounds (she was Paul Rudolph (ex-Fairies) roommate at the time). They all competed to outdo each other on punk coverage.  I've not read Savage's book. Does it not say anything about in there? There's a new book on the Fairies just out- details in their article. I almost think it's worth kicking around in a seperate article, and then juicing that for this one. I have a COI as I used to roadie for the Fairies and briefly played in Hawkwind. Wwwhatsup (talk) 10:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh and, here's a killer cite for you. Mick Jones & Tony James, now of Carbon/Silicon speaking of how they came to form the London SS. “Jones and James realised that they were kindred spirits. “We were into the same bands, we both read Creem [a US rock magazine] and we were both reading Mick Farren’s The Tale of Willy’s Rats – and I’ve never met anyone else who’s even heard of that book, let alone read it,” says James. “So here we are, 32 years later” The 1973 book is a pulp novel, an autobio about a 60's band that get big by being despicably revolting. It can be read in it's entirety (pdf) here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wwwhatsup (talk • contribs) 11:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good stuff. Savage's book really doesn't have anything on this, except one learns there that the Fairies were one of the bands to play the "First European Punk Rock Festival" in France in August 1976.—DCGeist 14:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

text: OK, let me know what you think of what I just added to our protopunk section. We can go into considerably more detail in the protopunk article itself. Best, Dan.—DCGeist 18:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: UK Proto

message: Often articles on popular culture start out writing as if the phenomenon was world-wide. Such articles initially take a rather myopic point of view not noticing that the phenomenon is specific to a certain place or certain sets of places. It may historically then spread elsewhere, however, my point is that we need to be specific about the rise of punk rock. Where did it arise? Among who? Which class(es)? What ethnicity? Gender specificities?
By glossing over these important specifics, the unintended effect is to write a white man's history as if it were the history of everyone elses.
-C. Ho
:Your observations are confounding from the get-go, as this article very plainly does not "start out writing as if the phenomenon was world-wide." The article is thoroughly geographically specific. It directly addresses and answers the question, Where did it (i.e., punk) arise? You have misstated your next question--it should be, "Among whom?"--but the article deals with that as well: The question of gender is addressed at various points. The article's illustrations indicate the predominant racial makeup of punk's participants, and the matter of race is directly addressed in the text at an appropriate point. Do you believe coverage of race is inadequate? Where, then, in the article would you start adding the word "white" or "Caucasian" or whatever your favored term is? 
:Insofar as ethnicity is significant to the development of punk, it may largely be deduced from the very specific geographical information provided (i.e., a lot of Anglo-Saxon-Jute and Celtic ethnics were involved). At least one scholarly tome has focused on the Jewish contribution to punk rock. Do you consider Jews an ethnicity? (If you do, I'm a-Chosen!) Is that the information you wish to see added? As for the class origins of punk rock, while the article does address class issues in the Punk transforms section, indeed it does not directly deal with them in the Early history section. What is your proposal for improvement? Do you believe the socioeconomic class that each early punk artist was born into should be determined and then provided in the article? In fact, the early punk artists identified with a range of socioeconomic classes--as is suggested in the introductory part of the Punk transforms section. You have tendered us your boilerplate. We now await your first suggestions specific to this article.—DCGeist (talk) 05:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Be geographically specific 

message: Every day this article looks less and less like a featured article.Hoponpop69 (talk) 02:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What exactly does the number of redlinks have to do with featured article status? The significance of every single redlinked band to the development of punk is appropriately sourced. Perhaps the number of redlinks indicates how thoroughly researched and how worthy of featured status the article is. I suppose it conserves mental energy to imagine that punk happened only in New York City and England, but that's just not the case. Given that redlinks appear to offend your aesthetic sensibilities, instead of complaining, why don't you start writing articles about some of these bands that our fellow English-speaking Wikipedians haven't yet gotten around to covering. I suggest Zunō Keisatsu and Urban Verbs as two of the most interesting. Looking forward to seeing your work.—DCGeist (talk) 15:31, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't understand what you're trying to say there. The absence of a Wikipedia article in any language is not a test of notability. If a redlink appears for an extended period (say, six months or a year) without an article being written, then we can conclude that one is unlikely to be written and the link code can be deleted. In fact, some bands that were redlinked for several months in the article have had articles written about them, such as King Snake Roost, which was redlinked for at least five months. Aside from the proper redlinking, the appropriateness of mentioning the bands--linked or not--in the article is based, per policy, on verifiable sourcing and a comprehensive approach to the subject.—DCGeist (talk) 07:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What's with the huge amount of redlink bands?

message: I substituted Leeway for Sick Of It All in the formative NYC hardcore para, but Spylab has reverted it.
I'll look for an alternate source on this. I don't consider Blush to be that reliable, and I'd like to know the exact quote that is being cited. I live in NYC and was around at the time. Other early hardcore bands apart from those mentioned were (Bad Brains), Reagan Youth, and The Mob. Both the latter broke up. By 85/86 (Bad Brains)/Cro-Mags/AF/Murphys Law/Leeway/Warzone was it. Leeway particularly were significant originators of the NYC metal/hardcore hybrid. Only then around 88/89 did SOIA start to make their mark. They can be grouped in the next wave with bands like Madball. Wwwhatsup (talk) 04:47, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for helping us get more precise. I know the Cro-Mags and Murphs came a bit later--but as they're very well known (relatively, of course) and still going, I think it is helpful to include them. I'm in favor of substituting for False Prophets per your observation. So as not to let example creep set in--and pending your pal's input--would you suggest replacing them with the Nihilistics or with the Beastie Boys? Best, Dan.—DCGeist (talk) 06:21, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well I'd say Nihilistics since they played more and the Beasties soon moved towards rap. If you are going to put in Murphs and Cro-Mags you should put Leeway in too, and I think say 'followed by' before them Wwwhatsup (talk) 16:40, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Leeway

message: It's about time. The image discussion could be summarized and continue. Wwwhatsup (talk) 16:07, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely. I've actually never archived, so if you're familiar with the procedure, please go ahead.—DCGeist (talk) 17:34, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive?

message: The earliest German punk I remember was PVC from Berlin. Abwärts from Hamburg were punk and experimental, laying groundwork for Einstürzende Neubauten. Wwwhatsup (talk) 23:35, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Either or both would be great. Just needs to be sourced appropriately--clearly shouldn't be a problem for Abwärts.--DCGeist (talk) 07:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Germany