Talk:First lady

message: I have removed the following
In constitutional monarchies, since the queen fills some of the roles of a first lady, the term Second Lady may be used for the Prime Minister's wife.
It is complete cobblers. Firstly the line mixes up queens consort and queens regnant. Seconly there is no such thing as a Second Lady in that context. Where prime ministers' wives are called anything, it is usually first lady and that is purely a tabloid press name, never used officially. FearÉIREANN 01:40, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Googling around, I have found that Second Lady has been occasionally used for the Vice President's wife. But the use for PM's wives seems to be jocular. -- Error 02:01, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed 

message: It seems to have escaped notice that O^O expanded the definition on January 19, 2006 of "first lady" from female spouse of a head of state to that of an elected head of government. This means that a number of previously "failed" first ladies can now be reinstated eg Lisbet Palme, Cherie Booth, Norma Major and Audrey Callaghan. Here goes!Phase1 23:52, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are the examples of the term being used for spouse of head of government that's not head of state?  The term is an extension of the concept of First Citizen, sometimes used as the title of head of state of a republic.  It's never used in monarchies like the UK or Canada.  Peter Grey 02:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Revised definition

message: The only time I ever hear the spouse of the Canadian Prime Minister referred to as the "First Lady" is in American news reports. Google turns up few domestic instances of its use. Fishhead64 22:19, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Canada

message: The article says:
:: In many countries (such as the United Kingdom), the Prime Minister's spouse has no recognized function, duties or title, and the term is not used. In Commonwealth Realms the closest equivalent is the Viceregal Consort, the husband or wife of the Governor General (who can in turn be male or female).
That could lead the reader to suppose that in the United States the First Lady has "recognized" functions or duties.  What does that mean?  Certainly the president's wife does not have official functions or duties, just as the British prime minister's wife does not.  Her position as hostess of the White House is unofficial, based on custom and not on law.  No such customs pertain to the British prime minister's wife, not because of any less official status (she has none and the president's wife has none), but because such ceremonial functions are already fulfilled by the monarch. Michael Hardy 02:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "recognized" function? 

message: I removed the Great Britain section, for two reasons.
* Great Britain hasn't existed as a country since 1801, and none of the examples predate this
* The term First Lady has never been used in the UK, except possibly as satire. Indeed, the only time I have ever seen it used myself was here, where the point was made that the UK doesn't have one!
It was immediately reverted. I'm going to remove it again, if you object then could we please discuss it here rather than getting into a revert war.
Furthermore, the cleanup tag was removed at the same time. I don't see how anyone could object to the article in it's current state being called a list, so I'm adding that back in too. Modest Genius talk 21:43, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It could be argued that the use of satire (Of Cherie Blair if I remember rightly) is relevant to this article. Cryomaniac (talk) 21:13, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Great Britain 

message: Hi everyone. I added and removed some major things to this article, such as the red-linked First Ladies, who do not belong on a list of "Notable First Ladies" if there isn't even an article for them. I also added some names, and deleted some. I fixed up the listy prose, and rewrote it in paragraph form. I got rid of the parenthetical statments, which are harder to read. I found the real "root" of the title First Lady, added it, and cited it. I'd say that I've done a lot of good in helping this article. Feel free to add, or slightly change. Happyme22 19:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean up 

message: I would like to make a proposal, but before I add it to the article, I want to make sure I have consensus (it is a serious edit). I would like to slim down the list of first ladies to the ones that actually used the title, i.e. the American ones, perhaps others, and provide a description of those and scratch the others. There is, after all, a list of first ladies article where similar information is given. Again, anyone may state their opinion here, as I don't want to start an edit war because there is no consensus. Thanks, Arknascar44 15:49, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal 

message: === Notable First Ladies ===
The section was removed, If we can find some sources we can incorporate some as examples. But the idea of "notable" is very biased, how do we know which ones are notable?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Eagle 101 (talk • contribs) 
=== Possible sources ===
*Maven's Word of Day, First Lady
=== Duties and ceremony ===
While the traditions and expectations of a first lady vary by country and have changed significantly over time, they typically include responsibilities such as hosting receptions at the executive residence, advocating on behalf of public causes and charities, and running state functions and other duties. 
*Kind of a no brainer, first ladies in various cultures will obviously have different duties. If we can find a secondary source for this, go ahead and re-add. By secondary source I mean something that compares the various culture's first ladies. Not us finding primary sources and drawing this conclusion. —— Eagle101Need help? 19:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Spotlight

message: While the traditions and expectations of a first lady vary by country and have changed significantly over time, they typically include responsibilities such as hosting receptions at the executive residence, advocating on behalf of public causes and charities, and running state functions and other duties. 
*Kind of a no brainer, first ladies in various cultures will obviously have different duties. If we can find a secondary source for this, go ahead and re-add. By secondary source I mean something that compares the various culture's first ladies. Not us finding primary sources and drawing this conclusion. —— Eagle101Need help? 19:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duties and ceremony 

message: Though the term first lady is rarely an official office of the state, several First Ladies have exerted considerable power and influence over the course of government despite the lack of a legal mandate, such as Edith Wilson, wife of Woodrow Wilson, and Henriette Conté, the first wife of Lansana Conté.  Others such as Hillary Clinton, Imelda Marcos or Sonia Gandhi have gone on to win political power in their own right, while others, such as Argentine Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, held office prior to becoming First Lady. Some others, including Isabel Peron and Janet Jagan, have become president themselves.
*Please note that we were not able to find sources for this. —— Eagle101Need help? 21:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro 

message: First Gentleman should be merged into this article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.62.78 (talk) 23:13, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The day the United States OF America elects a woman like Hillary Clinton to be its leader is the day you'll all have to refer to Bubba Bill as a "gentleman," as ludicrous and laughable a prospect as there ever was.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.59.9.52 (talk) 20:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That comment has no place here. Your comment is the reason that the Wikipedia "user-edit" system is fundamentally flawed, and  it's the reason that people will soon look at this "free encyclopedia" as being "worth every penny they paid for it" unless we see some serious changes. By the way, Hillary Clinton was not even mentioned in the comment you replied to, you complete moron. Take it to a political forum, for God's sakes. I believe the first commenter is correct, I second the idea for merging "First Gentleman" here. 72.213.129.138 (talk) 04:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: First Gentleman

message: : Although the US First Lady receives no salary, she does have an office and a budget. The size of the office and budget are at the pleasure of the president, but the same can be said for most offices in the White House. There is no permanent organization chart, and the budget for the white house (about $191 million)link, as approved by congress, is remarkably flexible and not subject to the same kind of specificity that most of the rest of the budget has. Informally and Customarily, there are power structures, and most everyone reports to the Chief of Staff, but I can't imagine that anyone would say that the First Lady does. Even the names of most offices in the White House (not OMB, for instance) can be changed at the order of the President, so I'm sure that any "First Dude" would work out of a differently named office but it's never come up, and it's hard to guess what a future president will do (ask Bill Clinton). I'm not sure how much of these goes in this article vs. the FLOTUS page, though.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by GumbyProf (talk • contribs) 12:15, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: US First Lady is not as informal as it says here, sort of

message: Whereas this article is about a global subject, and given that there is already an article that is on the U.S. First Lady (and is appropriately titled First Lady of the United States, I'm proposing that we globalize this article and we move content that is only appropriate for a specific article on the U.S. First Lady to First Lady of the United States (we would be merging parts of this article TO the First Lady of the U.S. article).--danielfolsom 19:57, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Oppose.  This article is about the First Lady notion as a whole, and if it originated in the U.S. and if the U.S. First Lady is the most well-known instance, then it's okay for this article's discussion to use that as a starting point.  Of course, all the other uses of First Lady need to be discussed and linked to from here as well.  Wasted Time R (talk) 20:39, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What? There really isn't a starting point to this article - it's currently ONLY  about the U.S. First Lady (and, there is already an article that serves that purpose); you are right in saying that "this article is about the First Lady notion as a whole" - and thus the article should be about the First Lady notion as a whole - not just the U.S. aspect.--danielfolsom 03:02, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely, add non-U.S. material to this article.  I'm just saying, you don't need to remove much of the U.S. material that's already here; I think it's appropriate as part of an overall world view on the First Lady notion.  Wasted Time R (talk) 03:46, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not saying start from scratch, however as this article was written with the intent to be purely from the U.S. perspective, I think there is information that would be too trivial for an overall article (the list of first gentlemen, for example), but would work better in the actual U.S. article--danielfolsom 02:11, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The First Lady of the United States article is solely about the White House position.  It doesn't deal with spouses of governors, mayors, or any other position.  Wasted Time R (talk) 02:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: True - I got the terms mixed up there; however I nonetheless believe to list every first gentlemen will be a little over-the-top after the globalization--danielfolsom 03:09, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Globalize/Merge 

message: The article claimed that Graça Machel was the only woman in history to be First Lady of two different nations. But since every wife of a French president is ex-officio also the wife of the Co-Prince of Andorra, I don't think this is true. --128.112.109.210 (talk) 03:41, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiple-first-Lady 

message: I can't see why there needs to be a specific list of current US first gentlemen within the article -- it's excessive detail that's likely to become outdated in any case. I'll go ahead and delete it in a few days if no-one argues otherwise. Gusworld (talk) 16:20, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  US first gentlemen list 

message: First Dude redirects to this article, but there's nothing in the article about that term... AnonMoos (talk) 14:27, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a sentence at the end of the Origins paragraph after the sentence that a male spouse of an American head of state might be called a "first gentleman." I wrote that possible alternatives could possibly be "first dude" as Sarah Palin called her husband, or maybe even "First Lad" or "First Mate" as Bill Clinton joked. I'm not sure they really belong here since they seem to be said informally. I guess there could be a alternatives subsection? However, since First Dude does in fact re-direct here, i thought it deserved a mention. As a sidenote, I was originally looking for First Dude the racehorse which just came in second at the Preakness stakes today.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marshalvinny (talk • contribs) 22:41, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Unexplained redirect

message: there are only 31 one first ladies in the picture including laura bush... though it says laura bush and an additional 36 first ladies. false.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.95.49.231 (talk) 20:08, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  picture 

message: Since the 'Apolitical uses' section currently cites no examples from outside the USA: Canadian professional wrestler Genny Goulet, stage name LuFisto, is advertised as the 'First Lady of Hardcore'. Dunno how appropriate it is but I supposed it was worth mentioning here at least. Sordyne (talk) 20:20, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Not relevant at all. --Thnidu (talk) 00:40, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-American example of apolitical use

message: I tried to neutralize the article. I didnt know there had been all this activity already, but part of my edits include putting the categories in a way that prevents hegemony. This way other people can add specific examples or names or deviations by country. Thanks--MsTingaK (talk) 05:38, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutralize

message: It seems like this topic is a little chaotic - there is a redirect when you search first gentleman to this article but there is not mention of first gentleman here anymore -- there used to be info on the first bloke of Australia, this is very sexist and reflects a paucity in gender neutral perspective --> either make the article gender neutral or separate the articles!--MsTingaK (talk) 00:21, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you -- "First Gentleman" should probably merit a section in this article or its own article, as it currently redirects to "First Lady" with very little actual information about First Gentlemen. The Giant Purple Platypus (talk) 08:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: REdirect and information on first Gentleman

message: Are we seriously saying that the lead must say "American" until there is a source found that specifically explains the term "First Lady"'s use in other countries?  Despite the article itself listing its use in other countries, and 100s of source that can be listed that show its use in other countries?
Because that's ridiculous.  If there is a lack of a cite then mark it as requiring one.  But pretending it doesn't exist in other countries, simply because a source can't be found discussing its origins is pedantry that flies in the face of the facts and the rest of the article.
Other first ladies;
* First Lady of Puerto Rico - FEMA story here
* First Lady of Nigeria - Nigerian Gov website here
* First Lady of Zambia - mentioned here
* First Lady of Armenia - described here on Armenia Gov. website
* First Lady of Poland - Polish Gov website
* First Lady of Azerbaijan - official website here
* First Lady of Seychelles - official website here
* First Lady of Trinidad and Tobago - website here
* First Lady of Peru - Gov webite news release here
* First Lady of China - News story
* First Lady of Uganda - Gov website
* First Lady Of Syria - News story
* First Lady of Belize - News story  WFP photo
* First Lady Of Moldova - Gov website
I could go on, and on... --Escape Orbit (Talk) 22:01, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: So your position is that all these countries don't really use "First Lady", they use their own words which can be translated as "First Lady"?   And the official websites of these countries are wrong in some way, and research is needed to determine whether the translation is correct?   I find that rather patronising.  The official language of Trinidad and Tobago, Nigeria, Uganda and Zambia is English, so when they say "First Lady" as a title they mean exactly that.  All these countries use the term on their websites exactly as they intend it to be used, whether in translation or not, and it is not the responsibility of Wikipedia editors to decide whether they are using it "correctly" or not.  These sources are reliable and evidence of the term not being solely American.  So it is misleading for the lead, as a summary of the article, to completely ignore that.  --Escape Orbit (Talk) 00:24, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not just American 

message: Surely "First Lady" was coined by analogy to First Citizen, a term borrowed from the Romans (Lat. Princeps), who applied it to their emperor, and applied in the U.S., along with many other Roman imperial trappings, to the President.  A female head of state today would presumably be both First Citizen and First Lady, which rather highlights how silly and outdated the title has become.  I would appreciate it very much if somebody with more time and interest than I have would pursue this and, if my suggestion is correct, amend the article accordingly.  J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 19:55, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Analogy to "First Citizen" 

message: It's opinionated, and it's extremely badly written, so much so that parts of it are hard to understand. I don't want to translate it into comprehensible English because I don't think it should be there at all.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.25.202.236 (talk) 10:22, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section "Role as presidential partner and political institution" should be removed 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I can find no such title attached to Livia, the wife of Augustus, formerly Gaius Octavius. The other two wives of Augustus belong to the pre-Principate (Pamour (talk) 09:40, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Femina Principalis 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: You have
"Non-spouses in the role
Several women (at least thirteen) who were not presidents' spouses ..."
But then you don't provide that many names. I did see that brief service of daughter Chelsea Clinton as Hillary Clinton began Senate term. Carlm0404 (talk) 03:53, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  What other non-spouses? 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Consensus to move   (t · c) buidhe 18:50, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: First Lady →  – MOS:JOBTITLES. Showiecz (talk) 14:33, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: We can also add Vice president.--65.92.160.124 (talk) 23:38, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

text: Ok but that still wouldn’t explain why this be different than as Prime minister, Member of parliament, Lieutenant governor, and Roman emperor etc?--65.92.160.124 (talk) 22:42, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Per common name, and per Honorific (as an honorific it would be capitalized). First Lady is not covered by MOS:JOBTITLES because it isn't a job. Simple as that. It's an unofficial honorific title given to the spouse of someone who, say, gains the White House. She goes along for the ride. It's a nickname. And I'd think we'd find that it's the common name by a large margin (unless I'm wrong, been known to have happened). Randy Kryn (talk) 01:49, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This would be true if this article only referred to the First Lady of the United States, a specific position (unofficial or otherwise) held by only one person at a time, but it's actually an article about the generic use of the title. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:01, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 1 February 2021 

message: Hi, I'm wondering if this section shouldn't be changed. As of now, for the most part it is just listing of translation of the term "first lady" and "first gentleman" into other languages. I think maybe those should be removed, and only some cases that say anything more apecific about First Suppose's role in the country and government be kept.Artemis Andromeda (talk) 15:13, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  About "in other countries" section