Talk:Alternate history/Archive 2

message: Why on earth would that be merged with this?  All the examples given in that article are clearly not alternate histories.  Goldfritha 02:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Uchronia MERGE-here Proposal

message: A disgruntled member of the forums at alternatehistory.com keeps on deleting the link to the site?  Since AH.com is the most comprehensive ah-themed website in the english language, the link should be included in the appropriate section.  Is it possible to lock to stop this vandalism?
:alternatehistory.com deserves a listing (but ah.com doesn't), but it shouldn't be listed as the largest or most comprehensive unless that statement can be verified as not POV (I'd suggest that uchronia is more comprehensive, but again, that is POV). Shsilver 21:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd request a source for the claim of "largest" (or "second largest") for alternate history.com and This Day in Alternate History.Shsilver 01:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link removal 

message: I have removed POV comments from the Fantasy section.  Whether these "should" be called "pseudo-alternities" or not, the fact is that they are not so called.  Goldfritha 23:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting term.  Would it apply to an alt-history work that not only bends the past but also bends physical science?  Orson Scott Card's The Tales of Alvin Maker series comes to mind as an example. --Erielhonan 01:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed it because it was original research.  The term is not in common use, and until it is, the question of what it applies to is not clear.  Goldfritha 21:50, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: pseudo-alternity

message: An edit summary comment by recent editor says he or she is not sure PK Dick qualifies as a major writer. For the record, the prestigious Library of America is coming out with a Philip K. Dick volume next spring (I presume Man in a High Castle will be one of the novels included). Although I personally think the LOA's first choice of a science-fiction writer to honor should have been the incomparable Jack Vance, the LOA volume will certainly consolidate Dick's well deserved reputation as an important figure in mainstream as well as genre literature.--14 Sept 2006
:Oh, yes, Philip K. Dick qualifies as a major writer.  Goldfritha 03:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: PKD major writer?

message: Wikipedians who read alternate history should consider deploying this userbox  on their user page to be included in :Category:Wikipedians_who_enjoy_alt-history.  This userbox and category were started to create a wikicommunity that will strive to keep articles about alternate history up-to-date and up to Wikipedia standards. --Erielhonan 01:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Userbox 

message: Sorry, if this comment is placed wrongly. Just wanted to mention "Iron Dream" by Norman Spinrad as an interesting piece of AH. It is a novel "by Adolf Hitler", if Hitler migrated to the U.S. in 1919 and became a sci-fi author, including an editorial note from the paralel history, which shows some context. 194.108.220.58 08:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Iron Dream - may could be mentioned

message: Just letting the editors of this article know that there is a discussion on Talk:Alternate future about the encyclopedicness of that article that I think editors of alternate history fiction might be interested in participating in. —Lowellian (reply) 20:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alternate future

message: The link for the active Othertimelines messageboard has been deleted, it is clearly a legitimate alternate history site, and one of the larger forums on the web, I will resubmit it, and hope there is not additional vandalism. 217.84.164.160 01:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Link Removal 

message: Rationale:
The word "alternate" has two distinct meanings.  The Compact OED defines it thus:
alternate [...]
adjective /awltrnt/ 
  1 every other. 
  2 (of two things) each following and succeeded by the other in a regular pattern. 
  3 chiefly N. Amer. another term for ALTERNATIVE.
The word "alternative" has only closely related meanings that all apply to this subject.  Therefore, the phrase "alternate history" is only correct for American English; in UK English, the phrase "alternative history" is preferred.  "Alternative history," however, is perfectly acceptable in both variants of the language.
Wikipedia's guideline in the situation of diverging variants of English (WP:MOS#National_varieties_of_English) is to "[select] one that does not have multiple variant spellings if there are synonyms that are otherwise equally suitable and reasonable."   It is clearly in the spirit of this suggestion to move to the more internationally acceptable title. JulesH 15:58, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look through the archives, you'll see that this was perviously discussed.  Whatever is correct grammatically, the genre is called "Alternate History." Shsilver 16:26, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've heard people calling it by both names.  However, the simple fact of the matter is that in British English, the phrase "alternate history" is nonsense, whereas "alternative history" is meaningful in both British and US English.  Wikipedia's guidelines in such cases is to use the more widely acceptable form. JulesH 15:54, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Setting aside that there is already an entry for Alternative history on Wikipedia, and setting aside any credentials I might have on the topic (in spite of recent arguments made on the Teresa Nielsen Hayden thread), I'll note that I have seen a variety of British publications use the phrase "alternate history" when referring to the genre.  For example:  Odyssey Issue 7, 1998, p.50: "Entries must be on the theme of Alternate History, and must be less than 7,500 words long." Odyssey was published by Partizan Press of London, UK, so the argument that "alternate history" is nonsense in British usage is demonstrably incorrect. Shsilver 19:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Additionally, in Brave New Words: The Oxford Dictionary of Science Fiction (Oxford University Press, 2007), the entry for "Alternative History" (p.5) reads: "n 1. ALTERNATE HISTORY 1." followed by examples beginning in 1977.  The entry for "Alternate History" (p.4) reads: "n 1. a timeline that is different from that of our own world, usually extrapolated from the change of a single event; the genre of fiction set in such a time." followed by examples dating back to 1954.Shsilver 12:43, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Wrong.  An encyclopedia should reflect the way the world is.Shsilver 15:28, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propose move to [[Alternative history]] 

message: I believe there 
should be at 
least a brief 
description on 
the idea of 
alternate 'beings' 
as well. Alternate 
beings can be 
completely fiction 
or a fiction based 
on a real person.
:::Jack Vance dealt with this in "Rumfiddle", where one of the characters "collects" alternate world versions of history's most evil people and raises them to be normal. Also there's the alternate Hitler in The Iron Dream who emigrates to America and becomes a science fiction writer with sado-masochist fantasies. And there's the alternate Allen Ginsburg in a Jack Barnes paratime novel who leads an anti-Nazi resistance cell in Berkeley and escapes to Vietnam to inspire with his great patriotic poetry the fight of Generals Patton and Giap and the multinational anti-Nazi army holding out in SE Asia and Tibet (I'm not making this up). If someone adds this theme it should be in a section of its own; this article has too many things in the wrong place already.--Dking 02:33, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternate Beings 

message: This section definitely merits a rewrite. It is very terrible written.
: I agree, time periods should be more clearly definde, eg post-WWII etc. Also, there should be mentions of AH's in other media, such as Command and Conquer: red alert being an AH where Einstein invented time travel and made Hitler disppear. (see article). - Redmess 10:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternate history in other media 

message: Why on earth would that be merged with this?  All the examples given in that article are clearly not alternate histories.  Goldfritha 02:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Uchronia MERGE-here Proposal

message: A disgruntled member of the forums at alternatehistory.com keeps on deleting the link to the site?  Since AH.com is the most comprehensive ah-themed website in the english language, the link should be included in the appropriate section.  Is it possible to lock to stop this vandalism?
:alternatehistory.com deserves a listing (but ah.com doesn't), but it shouldn't be listed as the largest or most comprehensive unless that statement can be verified as not POV (I'd suggest that uchronia is more comprehensive, but again, that is POV). Shsilver 21:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd request a source for the claim of "largest" (or "second largest") for alternate history.com and This Day in Alternate History.Shsilver 01:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link removal 

message: I have removed POV comments from the Fantasy section.  Whether these "should" be called "pseudo-alternities" or not, the fact is that they are not so called.  Goldfritha 23:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting term.  Would it apply to an alt-history work that not only bends the past but also bends physical science?  Orson Scott Card's The Tales of Alvin Maker series comes to mind as an example. --Erielhonan 01:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed it because it was original research.  The term is not in common use, and until it is, the question of what it applies to is not clear.  Goldfritha 21:50, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: pseudo-alternity

message: An edit summary comment by recent editor says he or she is not sure PK Dick qualifies as a major writer. For the record, the prestigious Library of America is coming out with a Philip K. Dick volume next spring (I presume Man in a High Castle will be one of the novels included). Although I personally think the LOA's first choice of a science-fiction writer to honor should have been the incomparable Jack Vance, the LOA volume will certainly consolidate Dick's well deserved reputation as an important figure in mainstream as well as genre literature.--14 Sept 2006
:Oh, yes, Philip K. Dick qualifies as a major writer.  Goldfritha 03:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: PKD major writer?

message: Wikipedians who read alternate history should consider deploying this userbox  on their user page to be included in :Category:Wikipedians_who_enjoy_alt-history.  This userbox and category were started to create a wikicommunity that will strive to keep articles about alternate history up-to-date and up to Wikipedia standards. --Erielhonan 01:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Userbox 

message: Sorry, if this comment is placed wrongly. Just wanted to mention "Iron Dream" by Norman Spinrad as an interesting piece of AH. It is a novel "by Adolf Hitler", if Hitler migrated to the U.S. in 1919 and became a sci-fi author, including an editorial note from the paralel history, which shows some context. 194.108.220.58 08:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Iron Dream - may could be mentioned

message: Just letting the editors of this article know that there is a discussion on Talk:Alternate future about the encyclopedicness of that article that I think editors of alternate history fiction might be interested in participating in. —Lowellian (reply) 20:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alternate future

message: The link for the active Othertimelines messageboard has been deleted, it is clearly a legitimate alternate history site, and one of the larger forums on the web, I will resubmit it, and hope there is not additional vandalism. 217.84.164.160 01:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Link Removal 

message: Rationale:
The word "alternate" has two distinct meanings.  The Compact OED defines it thus:
alternate [...]
adjective /awltrnt/ 
  1 every other. 
  2 (of two things) each following and succeeded by the other in a regular pattern. 
  3 chiefly N. Amer. another term for ALTERNATIVE.
The word "alternative" has only closely related meanings that all apply to this subject.  Therefore, the phrase "alternate history" is only correct for American English; in UK English, the phrase "alternative history" is preferred.  "Alternative history," however, is perfectly acceptable in both variants of the language.
Wikipedia's guideline in the situation of diverging variants of English (WP:MOS#National_varieties_of_English) is to "[select] one that does not have multiple variant spellings if there are synonyms that are otherwise equally suitable and reasonable."   It is clearly in the spirit of this suggestion to move to the more internationally acceptable title. JulesH 15:58, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look through the archives, you'll see that this was perviously discussed.  Whatever is correct grammatically, the genre is called "Alternate History." Shsilver 16:26, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've heard people calling it by both names.  However, the simple fact of the matter is that in British English, the phrase "alternate history" is nonsense, whereas "alternative history" is meaningful in both British and US English.  Wikipedia's guidelines in such cases is to use the more widely acceptable form. JulesH 15:54, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Setting aside that there is already an entry for Alternative history on Wikipedia, and setting aside any credentials I might have on the topic (in spite of recent arguments made on the Teresa Nielsen Hayden thread), I'll note that I have seen a variety of British publications use the phrase "alternate history" when referring to the genre.  For example:  Odyssey Issue 7, 1998, p.50: "Entries must be on the theme of Alternate History, and must be less than 7,500 words long." Odyssey was published by Partizan Press of London, UK, so the argument that "alternate history" is nonsense in British usage is demonstrably incorrect. Shsilver 19:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Additionally, in Brave New Words: The Oxford Dictionary of Science Fiction (Oxford University Press, 2007), the entry for "Alternative History" (p.5) reads: "n 1. ALTERNATE HISTORY 1." followed by examples beginning in 1977.  The entry for "Alternate History" (p.4) reads: "n 1. a timeline that is different from that of our own world, usually extrapolated from the change of a single event; the genre of fiction set in such a time." followed by examples dating back to 1954.Shsilver 12:43, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Wrong.  An encyclopedia should reflect the way the world is.Shsilver 15:28, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propose move to [[Alternative history]] 

message: I believe there 
should be at 
least a brief 
description on 
the idea of 
alternate 'beings' 
as well. Alternate 
beings can be 
completely fiction 
or a fiction based 
on a real person.
:::Jack Vance dealt with this in "Rumfiddle", where one of the characters "collects" alternate world versions of history's most evil people and raises them to be normal. Also there's the alternate Hitler in The Iron Dream who emigrates to America and becomes a science fiction writer with sado-masochist fantasies. And there's the alternate Allen Ginsburg in a Jack Barnes paratime novel who leads an anti-Nazi resistance cell in Berkeley and escapes to Vietnam to inspire with his great patriotic poetry the fight of Generals Patton and Giap and the multinational anti-Nazi army holding out in SE Asia and Tibet (I'm not making this up). If someone adds this theme it should be in a section of its own; this article has too many things in the wrong place already.--Dking 02:33, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternate Beings 

message: This section definitely merits a rewrite. It is very terrible written.
: I agree, time periods should be more clearly definde, eg post-WWII etc. Also, there should be mentions of AH's in other media, such as Command and Conquer: red alert being an AH where Einstein invented time travel and made Hitler disppear. (see article). - Redmess 10:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternate history in other media