Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)/Archive 17

message: :Please list here any Wikipedia:Request move which uses or abuses this convention
* Talk:Edmund II of England - Edmund II of England → Edmund Ironside (and dab page Edmund Ironside → Edmund Ironside (disambiguation)). (Informal requests Diarmait mac Cearbhaill → Diarmaid mac Cerbaill and Flaithbheartach → Flaithbertach mac Loingsig; Æthelthryth → Etheldreda) Angus McLellan  (Talk) 20:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested moves

message: I figured that people on this page would know where this article should be, as the "Queen" in the title looks odd to me.  My initial impulse is to move it to Rosalie Gicanda, but should it say "of Rwanda"?  I find royal/peerage titles baffling.  She was actually the Queen Dowager, at a time when the Rwandan monarchy was abolished, if that changes things.  Thanks, BanyanTree 14:41, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your help! - BanyanTree 22:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  article title for [[Queen Rosalie Gicanda]] 

message: Please see Talk:List of Polish monarchs#Naming for a lengthy discussion on the issue of the titles of these pages. john k 19:36, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I (re-)activated Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Polish rulers), as a result of the problems mentioned (also by john) at Talk:List of Polish monarchs#Aftermath. As ye all know, I'm no expert in royals, so please help a hand, I'm sure users like Elonka and Calgacus etc would contribute to working out a solution too, if given enough support. --Francis Schonken 17:05, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just to bring closure to this thread:  The proposal at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Polish rulers) has been rejected. --Elonka 16:11, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish monarchs 

message: Please, see above #Polish monarchs --Francis Schonken 17:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish monarchs (sequel) 

message: Please help completing the table below. The table is on a separate page, that opens when clicking the "edit" link below.
Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Polish rulers) is the place for discussions on the English Wikipedia page names of individual monarchs. --Francis Schonken 09:44, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish monarchs (table) 

message: "... of Germany" was intentionally not used back in 1871 by/for Wilhelm I, German Emperor, so Friedrich III of Germany (Hohenzollern) should be moved back to Friedrich III, German Emperor, and Wilhelm II of Germany back to Wilhelm II, German Emperor. See discussions there, as well as the announcement on Wikipedia:Requested_moves#15_June_2006. --Matthead 23:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  German Emperors 1871-1918, not Emperors of Germany 

message: The "maiden name rule" is a generalization (and a simplification) of actual usage, which does not actually follow it. 
Until very recently, royals were disambiguated by any means convenient; often a place name. This could be 
*Place of birth (John of Gaunt, Edward of Caernarvon).
*Associated title (Joan of Kent, Edward of March, Richard of Gloucester)
*Foreign realm associated with the royal. The foreign realm might be 
**The origin of a foreign princess marrying in England: Mary of Teck, Anne of Cleves.
**The origin of a foreign prince marrying or coming to England: William of Orange, George of Denmark, Rupert of the Rhine.
**The foreign realm assumed by an English princess marrying abroad: Elizabeth of Bohemia.
**I don't think any English princes acquired crowns matrimonial, but it would have extended to them too; consider Maximillian of Mexico as a distant parallel. 
This inevitably Anglocentric (or, xince the French used it too - and probably first - Gallocentric) system in part (but only in part) overlaps the maiden-name rule, which is an artificial Wikipedia construct. The cases where it most weverely fails are precisely  those where this discussion keeps floundering; Alexandra of Russia and Elizabeth, late Queen-consort of England. 
I have a modest proposal: let's follow actual usage. Septentrionalis 02:05, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actual usage varies, to be honest. Many people speak of Alix, some of Empress Alexandra, others of Aleksandra Feodorovna/Fyodorovna. Rupert of the Rhine is a mess as is... To get to the point, a set system of classification where there is generally no wiggle room is what works best. Consorts to states with monarchs (be them dukes, emperors, etc) should be treated the same. Sovereigns ought to be treated the same and royals who were neither consorts or sovereigns ought to be treated alike. Other common usages should redirect to the appropiate article (eg Kaiserin Elizabeth to Elizabeth of Bavaria) as they do now. Charles 02:44, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actual usage varies enormously - if it didn't, we wouldn't have a problem.  The maiden name rule isn't a wikipedia concept at all, it is the "normal" usage in academic/reference books. That's why we adopted it as a general rule or convention.  Deb 11:28, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the normal usage in many cases. Sometimes Wikipedia tries to generalize this beyond its elastic limit; don't think I'm saying more than that. Septentrionalis 06:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I would welcome some improvement in the naming conventions for past royal consorts.  The present system treats a princess of X-land in exactly the same way as a queen regnant of X-land; this is downright peculiar. I understand Charles' desire for "no wiggle room", but after decades of royalty-study I now understand that that is just not possible (there are so many variations and exceptions). Noel S McFerran 13:48, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A modest proposal

message: Another query on Queen Consorts. There are four Joan of Englands, all mentioned on that page. Two have 'alternate' names, and have their own articles under those. The other two do not, and the page looks a mess as a result. According to the naming conventions discussed above, these women should both be at Joan of England, but need to be disambiguated. I have proposed on the talk page turning Joan of England into a redirect dab page, with links to:
:*Joan of England (Queen Consort of Sicily)
:*Joan of England (Queen Consort of Scotland)
:*Joan, Lady of Wales
:*Joan of the Tower
Any thoughts on the article names for the first two? Alternative ways to dab these would be welcome. ::Supergolden:: 11:21, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean a disambiguation page; a redirect must point only one place. Consort  should not, by WP style, be capitalized, and is probably unnecessary, Septentrionalis 17:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I did of course mean a disambig page. I think consort is probably necessary, Joan of England (Queen of Scotland) does sound a wee bit odd. ::Supergolden:: 17:30, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Any more than Margaret of Anjou (queen of England), or even William of Orange (king of England)? Not that these exist; Margaret doesn't need dabbing AFAIK, and  we barely escaped disambiguating William of Orange (from William the Silent). Septentrionalis 22:50, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Joan of England

message: There is huge inconsistency in the names used for British life peers - some are named using their title and some not. The paragraph on the subject in this article does not clarify matters:
Life peers...use the dignity in the title, unless the individual is exclusively referred to by personal name. For example: Quintin Hogg, Baron Hailsham of St Marylebone (not "Quintin McGarel Hogg"), but Margaret Thatcher (not "Margaret Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher.")
That allows a vast amount of leeway as to naming, since pretty much no life peer is referred to exclusively by their personal name (even Laurence Olivier, somebody definitely known professionally by his personal name, was frequently referred to as "Lord Olivier", for example). It's interesting that Margaret Thatcher is used as an example. She's not referred to exclusively by her personal name at all - in fact, she is now pretty much exclusively referred to, by the British media at least, as "Baroness Thatcher" or "Lady Thatcher". I think we need a little more clarification on this policy. -- Necrothesp 17:23, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's true there is inconsistency, but that's in the nature of the thing.  I believe we normally come to a consensus if there is doubt (sometimes after quite a bit of debate).  I don't think a hard-and-fast rule is possible in these cases. Deb 18:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is really whether or not the many life peers who are listed only by their personal name should be moved to their name and title. This is particularly an issue when someone who already has an article about them is created a peer. -- Necrothesp 15:35, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Inconsistency in names for British life peers

message: Pope Stephen III must be renamed Pope Stephen (II or III), ... , Pope Stephen X must be renamed Pope Stephen (IX or X). The "former" Pope Stephen II must be renamed Pope Stephen (unconsecrated). New disambiguation pages must be created for each Pope Stephen n entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Švitrigaila (talk • contribs) 21:57, 10 April 2006
* That description suggests a burden of Dab pages being borne as a cost imposed by the desire for titles that are non-committal about the numbering.  
: The proposal will be better understood if viewed as a design for a disambiguation structure that (except for the familiar burden of Dab'd article titles) stays hidden from most users (since the easily built Dab pages will be seen only by editors and those who type in an article title starting "Pope Stephen..." -- but not those who follow links from other articles).  This structure may be constrasted with Švitrigaila's approach, and the need that it imposes, for 
:# a ToP Dab on each article but one, and
:# the unusual & IMO problematic structure of all but one of the ToP Dabs lk'g to a page that in turn begins with another ToP Dab that almost always is irrelevant, but may give the impression of needing to be read and perhaps lk'd thru, and may lead to reflexive or confused lk'g into an irrelevant article, or conceivably in turn into more than one.
: It is, mutatis mutandum,  the article titles that are the consequent burden, and the separation of Dab'n into separate files that is the benefit sought.
:--Jerzy•t 05:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[User:Jerzy|Jerzy]]'s opinion:

message: Pope Stephen III must be renamed Pope Stephen II, ... , Pope Stephen X must be renamed Pope Stephen IX. Pope Stephen X must be kept as a simple redirect to Pope Stephen IX. The "former" Pope Stephen II must be renamed Pope elect Stephen. No disambiguation page has to be created. A simple disambiguation phrase is added at the top of each article (this line can already be seen in those articles: I wrote them myself and surprisingly Jerzy transformed them into a Template, that's a very good idea!)
Note I've renamed the old Pope Stephen II into Stephen (ephemeral pope). I know this title is awkward and the move was not wise.
Now, I don't want further historical arguments about the opportunity of changing the existing titles. The discussion is no more about historical facts. In theory all is explained in Stephen (ephemeral pope). I would like users to decide which system is better for numbering those popes.
Švitrigaila 21:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[User:Švitrigaila|Švitrigaila]]'s opinion:

message: *"Pope Stephen II" : My argument is there must be a choice in a title, and a title can't reflect all the possible variants for one name. Švitrigaila 21:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Though that's not a solution: an unqualified "Stephen III" means absolutely nothing, while "Stephen II/III" is perfectly precise. - Nunh-huh 05:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * This "oldfashioned usage" is just a term of abuse. The real situation is that by and large we don't need the Roman numerals to write our articles, and that the usually valuable numbering mechanism has been rendered worthless by centuries of political maneuvering disguised as theological hair splitting. We need to do something about it, not to "get the names right", but to properly serve the unfortunates who have no better way to get to the article than thru shabby mechanism of the Roman numerals.--Jerzy•t 05:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Pope Stephen (II or III)" or "Pope Stephen II"?

message: There have been a few moves of pages of the princes/princesses who were simutaneously the children of the Duke of Edinburgh and the Duke of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha. Now, the pages are at "of Edinburgh and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha", moved by a user who was moving more pages from "Saxe-Coburg and Gotha" to "Saxe-Coburg-Gotha". Since the use of the "and" is correct and was in the official name of the duchy (duchies), it should be used. However, does SC&G need to be used with Edinburgh? Charles 16:53, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Charles is referring to the children of Alfred, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.  He had six children, five of whom have Wiki-articles.  "Prince Alfred of Edinburgh" has been renamed Prince Alfred of Edinburgh and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (by Yakksta_x on March 27). "Princess Victoria Melita of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha" has been renamed Princess Victoria Melita of Edinburgh and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (by Morhange on April 29). "Princess Alexandra of Edinburgh" has been renamed Princess Alexandra of Edinburgh and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (by Yakksta_x on March 27).  "Princess Beatrice of Edinburgh" has been renamed Princess Beatrice of Edinburgh and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (by Yakksta_x on March 27).  Only Marie of Edinburgh has not been changed (she became queen of Romania).  The four who have been changed are virtually never known as "of Edinburgh and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha"; this is just not the standard way of referring to these people in English-language works.  The convention states "Where a monarch has reigned over a number of states, use the most commonly associated ones."  Surely this must apply to cadet members of a house as well.  Or are we to rename the articles for all archdukes of Austria, to show that they were also princes of Hungary and Bohemia, etc.?  I agree with Charles that these pages should use the "most common form of the name used in English" (whatever that is - and it might be difficult to decide sometimes; and it might not be consistent for all five of them). Noel S McFerran 22:39, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Simply using of Edinburgh seems rather ignorant to the status of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha as a sovereign state of which Alfred was the duke. Alfred's article simply is titled Alfred, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha rather than a combination involving Edinburgh. Would it suffice, for the sake of using one designation and to match their father, to have the prince and the princesses at of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha? Granted, both were used at times, but if one is to be used over the other, I think the status as children of a reigning Saxon duke is more important that a courtesy designation from their father's UK peerage, which was a dukedom with no territory to reign over. All that being said, if Edinburgh was only used, I would find it to be much more acceptable than a long string of designations not even of equal standing (on the basis of territory/state). Charles 22:58, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In the case of Marie (whose page name hasn't been changed), she is almost always known in English works as "Marie of Edinburgh".  In the case of Victoria Melita she is usually known as "of Saxe-Coburg ((and) Gotha)".  I'm not nearly as sure regarding Alexandra and Beatrice.  I'm afraid that this is another case of common English usage not being consistent. Noel S McFerran 03:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

text: The distinction in German between - and and with regard to this Saxon duchy is an important one, such that this particular translation IS straight forward. I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish, if not to try to get under the skin of others. The version that differs from the direct translation from German is an informal treatment. Charles 01:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not trying to be irritating; I am trying to follow English usage, which is policy. Charles is attempting to import a distinction, which, as far as I can tell, no English source (however formal) makes, and which is unidiomatic. It may be that English could benefit from a change; but this is not the place to campaign for one. Septentrionalis 04:04, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saxe-Coburg & Gotha/Edinburgh 

message: :Baronets, as they hold hereditary titles, often for a large part of their lives, follow the same practice as hereditary peers and should have their title noted in the beginning of the article. The format is Sir John Smith, 17th Baronet. For the article title, this format should only be used when disambiguation is necessary; otherwise, the article should be located at John Smith.
I recently create a page Harington Baronets which was a red link from Baronetage of England because I wanted to create a stub for the regicide James Harrington because the link went to his cousin of the same name James Harrington. The article name I initially gave the article about the man was: James Harrington, 3rd Baron of Ridlington. I now know that Baron was wrong and since then the page has been moved to Sir James Harrington, 3rd Baronet.
Looking through the first few baronetage only pages in the list Baronetage of England, it seems to me that the above guidelines are not being followed.
* Bacon Baronets take the page name format of Sir Nicholas Bacon, 1st Baronet
* Harington Baronets take the page name format of Sir James Harrington, 1st Baronet
* Hobart Baronets take the format Sir Henry Hobart, 1st Baronet, of Intwood but this seems to be because there are also Sir Robert Henry Hobart, 1st Baronet, of Langdown lower down the page.
#The guideline seems silly to me to state this format should only be used when disambiguation is necessary unless one is very familiar with the subject how does one know if any of the other members of the family, or a notable other person has the same name? Why this rule for this specific hereditary title and not for the others like Baron? It seems to me sensible to alter the guidline so that all baronets include baronet in the page name. It simplifies the naming of pages and seems to to be the current practice.
#Should Sir be included in the page name? At the moment it seems to be, but the guidelines imply to me that it should not.
#As with the Baronetage of England, should the name in the text of the page include "of Ridlington" (Is it part of the title)? Should it be included in the page name other than for disambiguation? --Philip Baird Shearer 15:45, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can certainly answer your last question: "of Wherever" should never be included in a Baronet's article name, even for disambiguation. It's not part of the title at all (plus it looks ridiculous). Proteus (Talk) 16:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Baronets

message: The formulation of "Existing Royal Consorts are referred to by their consort name, eg. Queen Sofia of Spain. But when she dies, she will revert to her pre-marital title, ie, Sofia of Greece & Denmark. As widow, some appropriate addition (usually announced by the country in question) will be amended to (such as Queen Dowager or Queen Mother), with the new Queen of Spain being referred to by the consort designation. The same rule applies to male royal consorts." is not good when saying how the person reverts after death, as to the word TITLE. The established use in works of reference clearly does not use any title, it uses the simplified name precisely without any titulary. The word should be changed to "name" or equivalent. Queen Mary is not Princess Mary of Teck but Mary of Teck. Marie Antoinette is not Archduchess Maria Antonia of Austria but Marie Antoinette of Austria. There are some who did not have terrotory, then the surname or something similar is used, as Anne Boleyn. The wording should reflect that no title is used, but a formulation "first name in its usual version" plus "territorial designation or if not used, then surname".
The formulation of "Past Royal Consorts are referred to by their pre-marital name or pre-marital title, not by their consort name, as without an ordinal (which they lack) it is difficult to distinguish various consorts; eg, as there have been many queen consorts called Catherine, use Catherine of Aragon not Queen Catherine." is not good as to the word TITLE.    Shilkanni 15:03, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Referring to deceased consorts by the format <name> of <country> is used because that was their title. Royalty tend to use country as title for princes/ses of the blood. Sophia was Princess Sophia of Greece (the Denmark was not used generally until the abolition of the Greek monarchy to keep Greek republicans, who are a moody lot, happy) before marrying Juan Carlos. The only difference is that with consorts when returning to pre-marital title the Princess bit is dropped to indicate she was a queen consort somewhere. Name is only used if there was not a royal title to refer to. So the naming conventions are correct. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 15:12, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to agree that the TITLE is not to be used. I believe that the rule in NC should say it explicitly, as otherwise we get here all sorts of editors who are adding "Princess" there and here. The wording should say clearly that it is the "territorial designation", not any "title". Shilkanni 15:19, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No. No. No. You don't grasp it. Country is title for royalty, unless they had a different one at the point of marriage (eg, Marie of Edinburgh is called that because that was her title at the time of her marriage.) FearÉIREANN\(caint) 15:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I grasp it, and to contrary, you use the word title for something that people usually do not use it for. Do you really have anything serious against being precise and wording the directive to say "territorial designation"? (Btw, do you grasp that there are editors to whom the word "title" means thgat they add "princess" and "archduchess" etc to these??) Shilkanni 15:35, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem with using territorial designation is that it would sound as though we are making up a name. Perhaps we need a footnote to explain that royalty use country name as a title. Re the princess stuff the NCs do make clear that that should not be used. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 15:58, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The NC does not yet make it sufficiently clear, as there exist some editors who somehow believe that a married woman could be Princess Anne of Bourbon-Parma. Shilkanni 16:12, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Almost any discussion here prompts a debate about how some biography is wrongly titled in today Wikipedia. Though often titles of biographies have been arrived by a thoughtful process and even a consensus of editors, that does not prevent some users wanting to criticize such, not in the talkpages of those articles but of course here in the talk about how to formulate general rules. See diversions and distractions e.g below. Shilkanni 17:00, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  should not revert to "pre-marital TITLE", but to pre-marital simple NAME 

message: Actually, I would like to add something to the text:"
Past Royal Consorts are referred to by their pre-marital name (first name as usually used, and a designation, usually a territory, if nonexistent, then surname or equivalent - no actual title is ever used, such as princess), not by their consort name, as without an ordinal (which they lack) it is difficult to distinguish various consorts; eg, as there have been many queen consorts called Catherine, use Catherine of Aragon not Queen Catherine. 
Existing Royal Consorts are referred to by their consort name, eg. Queen Sofia of Spain. But when she dies, she will revert to her pre-marital name (same as in past consorts: "first name as usually used, and a designation, usually a territory, if nonexistent, then surname or equivalent - no actual title is ever used, such as princess"), ie, Sofia of Greece. As widow, some appropriate addition (usually announced by the country in question) will be amended to (such as Queen Dowager or Queen Mother), with the new Queen of Spain being referred to by the consort designation. The same rule applies to male royal consorts." Welcome to formulate the formula to be as precise as possible. Shilkanni 16:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: An addition

message: (copied from above: The NC does not yet make it sufficiently clear, as there exist some editors who somehow believe that a married woman could be Princess Anne of Bourbon-Parma. Shilkanni 16:12, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anne is the wife of a king. For the same reason that Princess Caroline of Monaco is the Princess of Hanover, Anne is Queen Anne of Romania. Charles 16:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anne's title is not to be decided by Wikipedia. However, I would point out that Caroline is not titled here as Queen of Hanover. There are ample reasons why we should not title Anne as Queen either. Shilkanni 16:34, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Caroline is not titled Queen of Hanover because her husband is not titled King of Hanover. Anne's husband, Michael, however, is titled King of Romania. Anne is titled Queen Anne of Romania by various royal courts. Wikipedia can't decide titles, but apparently it can deny the title used by Anne and others to refer to her? What are these ample reasons? Charles 16:42, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I have seen little to no evidence of Anne being referred to as Princess Anne of Hohenzollern. All of her daughters are titled as princesses of Romania and her husband is, by courtesy, the king of Romania. As such, Anne is the queen of Romania. Sources from basic article up to the British Royal Family use this title. For instance, here. Type CTRL+F on this page and type Queen Anne of Romania. If the basis of naming her is that her husband is undisputedly a prince of Hohenzollern, shouldn't he be at Prince Michael of Hohenzollern? After mentioning Anne's marriage, her son-in-law (the auther of that book) refers to her as queen.Charles 17:03, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To me, that "a little" evidence of her referred as "Princess Anne of Hohenzollern" is sufficient to mention it in the text of the article. Whereas I am not sure it should be the title of the article. However, I am against her article to be titled as "queen..." as it would be endorsement of royal pretension and not an undispited fact. Her queenship is a thing only to be mentioned in the text of the article, as are also other views of referring to her. You cannot make titles by what are titles of her relatives - that is at its worst, pure invention. How her son-in-law refers to her is immaterial as to titling, but a title of a published book is a (possibly small) sign how she is known. Her husbands article's location is directed by the scholarly usage to refer to deposed monarchs, and I accept it. That however says nothing to NPOV title to her, as she was not deposed but only maried afterwards, and was not an actual queen ever. If we want a specific NC for consorts married with deposed monarchs after loss of throne (such as Magda Lupescu), we shouold open a separate thread in this talkpage. I would possibly support something like "Margarita of Bulgaria", without any title, for living persons (as much as it may give an impression of being a reigning queen), and Jutta of Mecklenburg for deceased ones, as is conventional with decased consorts anyway. Shilkanni 17:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All of this aside, the fact of the matter is that Anne is overwhelmingly referred to as Queen Anne of Romania against all other forms of a name. The name also conforms to naming rules for consorts (which she is, the consort of a king, whether reigning or not) and conventions for the use of the most common name. I cannot understand your opinion why endorsing Parma-based and Hohenzollern titles is fine, but using the title wby which she is most known is not. If she is a Princess of Hohenzollern by virtue of marriage to a Prince of Hohenzollern, then she is a Queen of Romania by virtue of marriage to King of Romania. If she were otherwise called Princess Anne of Parma/Hohenzollern/whatever, that would be fine. However, she is called Queen Anne of Romania. Charles 18:26, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is not the place to jadda-jadda about her precise naming, if you do not propose a change to naming convention. Could you kindly keep to issues at hand here, and not distract. And, I am of the opinion that the naming convention does not mean that she would be titled queen. That has never been the intention of the convention written in the NC page. As to "common name", she is so little known outside certain royalist circles that no conclusion should be drawn from what they like to call her - such would be the recipe to get incredible titles for quite little notable things, and the stupider the less known it is (Anne would be queen but Simeon II a Mr Sakskoburggotski, if I read the google results enough - and we would possibly end up with an Empress Concepcion and a King Rosario, or something like that). I was weakly hinting that "Anne of Romania" would be somehow possibly acceptable to me, without queenly titulary. Then, lastly, where have you got an idea that I push any sort of Parma-based title to her - I would be more happy if you were to refrain from misrepresentation. Shilkanni 19:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't mean things personally for the most part, but it can only come out sounding like this. First and foremost, this is the place to talk about it since you took the time to create a subheading and continue the discussion. Secondly, when you have little else to say, do not accuse me of distracting. It is not very courteous and it is slightly hypocritical to state that I am distracting and then continue on afterward. You are only speaking of what is acceptable to you. I have had to back down when I was wrong before simply because my opinions aren't the be all that end all. The same holds true for yours. If Anne is so little known, she should not have an article on Wikipedia under a name which she is further little known by. On what basis are you allowed to draw such a conclusion as to give her the name given to a deceased consort or a monarch? By keeping Anne at the name after she dies, it would acknowledge that she was a consort in the first place. Oh, and I wrote Parma on the basis of one of my other opinions. I thought the "whatever" at the end was fairly inclusive of other territorial designations. Charles 20:35, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Anne of Bourbon

message: Under Existing Royal Consorts the example of Sofia of Spain is not well formulated and should be corrected: Sofia of Greece and Denmark is too convoluted and good works of reference will not do it in that way. Experts will name her simply as Sofia of Greece in the future. This has been seen in many earlier cases: Elena of Greece was the queen of Romania, and there have also been several princesses of two or more realms to become queens consort and deceased now - of them, only the most usual territory is regularly mentioned. For some reason, there is Marie of Edinburgh, not Marie of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and United Kingdom. This "pre-marital names rule" has always used the simplest territorial designation, thus is is untenable to convolute them here in Wikipedia. Shilkanni 15:16, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You miss the point. Marie of Edinburgh is called that because that was her actual pre-marital title. Royal House names generally are not added into royal titles by royalty. No-one ever writes Prince Charles of Windsor and the United Kingdom, Prince Henri of Bourbon and France. They write Prince Henri of France because that was his title. And of course Sofia will be of Greece. This of Greece and Denmark is used post-1974. She would be returning to her pre-1974 title, which was of Greece. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 15:26, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is the example about Sofia of Greece. Readers may decide who is the person who missed the point. Shilkanni 15:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Saxe-Coburg and Gotha was not a house name, but rather a ducal territorial designation. Since the Greek royals are also Danish royals, both titles being derived from kingdoms, I believe both should be used when appropriate. Charles 15:29, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It, or a variant, was used as Royal House name in the UK from 1901 to 1917, however. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 15:35, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The context in which Shilkanni used it was valid, as a title. There is a better case for it as it would be the closest title deirved from a sovereign in the princess' ancestry. Charles 15:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree here with Jtdirl: She woul be Sofia of Greece after her death. One of the reasons for that is that when she married, only Greece was used, and that's the idea of "pre-marital" designation as instructed in the scholarly usage. Another reason is pure "keep it simple". Shilkanni 15:41, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greece and Denmark not a good example - simplify 

message: The title of the article Margaret of Connaught is presently under discussion. There are two issues here:
# How do we fare with consorts whose pre-marital title was a UK courtesy title, like Princess Maud of Wales? She is presently at Maud of Wales, while other ways to go would be either Princess Maud of Wales or Maud of the United Kingdom.
# What to do with a crown princess consort that never became queen, such as Margaret? Should she be treated as a "royal consort" (and possibly be either Margaret of Connaught or Margaret of the United Kingdom) or as normal royalty (and be Princess Margaret of Connaught)? And if the first line is agreed upon, what to do with her daughter-in-law who was not even a crown princess — accept her too as Sibylla of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha or draw the line there and have Princess Sibylla of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha? Basically, who should be treated as a "royal consort"?
As whatever decision arrived at might affect other articles as well, I thought it would be a good idea to inform here about the discussion. Any input is, of course, appreciated. -- Jao 21:39, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that crown princesses should have their title affixed to the front of their maiden name, i.e. Princess Sybilla of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. That is the way it is generally done now on Wikipedia and I see no reason to change it. Directly before Maud's marriage, she was "of Wales". That is how she ought to be titled on Wikipedia. Charles 03:18, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I must concur: We should not attempt to invent a system; we should use what she is actually called in English. (In advance of the evidence, Margaret of Connaught is probably reasonable; short article titles are good things.) Septentrionalis 17:10, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia should not invent a system for these crown princesses.. I predict that similar academics will regard this as a joke when they realize that an elaborate titling has been invented here, to include both "princess" and "historical name". Archives reveal that a person above was two years ago among those who also then were such who had to be convinced that academic world already has a usage of "historical name" (and consequently, Wikipedia gets laughed when contrary usages are in use). Afterwards, certain persons here have been repeating the doctrine of "historical name" (as soon as they finally comprehended it) and funnily enough, have tried to claim that their all attempts are in accordance with that system - now here you again see how well those have understood the academic usage. Perhaps it will take just some 17 months and as many versions, before those certain ones will be convinced that the academic usage should be followed. What a sad prospect of much much work - btw, Jtdirl, are you soon going to attend any conference where some knowledgeable academics would be present. Academics know that these women are generally under the historical names, similarly as are queens-consorts, and the specific rule here invented will create hilarity. "Margaret of Connaught" is accurate, contrary to allegations above. Shilkanni 18:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: That implication exists only to those who trust in Wikipedia's naming system, which is broken. Margaret of Connaught no more implies a queen consort than Joan of Kent. I will agree that it is (given the choice) preferable to have people who do know what they are doing make something up; but it would be better still to report English usage.  Septentrionalis 18:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong. Early mediaeval naming used a form <name> <of somewhere> in the absence of surnames for a host of people; royalty, nobility, clergy, saints, theologians, etc whether real of mythical (eg, Robin of Sherwood for Robin Hood). Wikipedia uses those forms of names for early mediaeval personages. By Margaret's era that format was no longer used. In historiography it is generally used now to indicate consorts because it carries the standard format for monarchs (<name> of <country/place/title>) but uses maiden title rather than consort name because of the impractibility of using the latter given that consorts have no ordinal and so if using consort names would be indistinguishable from each other. It is used widely. Contrary to Shilkanni's claims (and his made up link to "instruction creepism") that format is widely used by biographers. Wikipedia based its rules on a thorough analysis of formats used, and after consulting with experts. Wikipedia faces a problem in so far as while most source books have limited numbers of individuals, we have the broadest range of any sourcebook ever published, reflecting multiple cultures, eras and formats. To establish a workable system experts were consulted. For British royal naming, for example, Buckingham Palace was approached for guidance and the naming formats used reflected their observations. Buckingham Palace and St. James's Palace gave the WP format thumbs up for accuracy, co-ordination and functionality. The Wp rules were debated extensively on talk pages and in thorough detail on the mailing list before being introduced and had an overwhelming consensus behind them. Putting someone in Margaret's era in a format used prior to her is factually incorrect and not an option. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 19:08, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Experts use the term Early medieval of things before 1000 CE (or the endpoint even earlier). Are you implying (putting your credibility on line) that Robin of Sherwood and Joan of Kent lived before 1000 CE ? Shilkanni 19:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you run out of steam? Except for that, Jtdirl has many, many very valid things to say. Charles 19:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: A thought here, which is that we've never had a clear rule for how to name royals who marry into another royal family, but do not themselves become queen or empress. This includes both those who never became consorts at all and those who became consorts to rulers with lesser titles, like Grand Duke or Duke or Prince. I think there tends to be a serious imbalance between how we treat British princesses who married continental royals and continental princesses who marry British royals. In the latter instance, there is clearly no uniformity even within that subcategory - the Prussian princess who married Frederick Augustus, Duke of York, is at Frederica Charlotte of Prussia; the Waldeck princess who married Leopold, Duke of Albany, is at Princess Helena, Duchess of Albany; the Prussian princess who married Arthur, Duke of Connaught is at Princess Louise Margaret, Duchess of Connaught; Victoria's mother is at Princess Victoria of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld; the wife of Prince Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge is at Princess Augusta of Hesse-Kassel. Clearly Victoria's daughters-in-law are listed in a completely different manner from George III's.  Also note, George III's mother is not at Augusta, Princess of Wales (which oddly redirects to the article on George IV's daughter, who was not, of course, Princess of Wales), but at Princess Augusta of Saxe-Gotha.  This all ought to be made unitary. Either they are referred to by their husband's ducal title, or they are referred to by their maiden name. john k 19:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have a particular view on crown princesses, but the wikipedia guidelines have never precluded exceptions.  The main thing is to argue these out individually and achieve consensus. Deb 19:33, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that there's no reason for the inconsistency - why is Princess Augusta of Hesse-Kassel who became Duchess of Cambridge sufficiently distinct from Princess Helena of Waldeck-Pyrmont who became Duchess of Albany that their articles should be named in different ways?  This is clearly something that should be in the naming conventions - do articles on dead foreign princesses who married British princes with peerage titles go at their maiden name, or at their husband's peerage title?  There's no reason to treat this on a case by case basis. john k 19:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, and perhaps my statement above is unclear.  I just think that when there appears to be a reason for an exception, we should look at it carefully rather than trying to apply a blanket "rule".  We developed these conventions to give guidance, not to beat people over the head with. Deb 22:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Hmm, in Canada, I always hear Albert referred to as Prince Albert or The Prince Consort. No one I've heard uses Saxe-Coburg and Gotha because they don't know how to say it. However, under the current rules, consorts are to be named a certain way and Albert and George are no less consorts than Mary of Modena, Alexandra of Denmark, et cetera. Charles 18:22, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Btw, I changed this to have a heading. I hope you don't mind. Charles 18:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The consort rules were not originally made thinking about male consorts.  The reason we don't use "Princess" with Alexandra and Mary is because they attained a higher title - "Queen."  This is not true of Prince George or Prince Albert, who remained princes throughout their lives.  Trying to apply this policy to male consorts is misguided.  (It should be used, perhaps, with king consorts like Francisco d'Assis of Spain or Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg in Portugal, but certainly not with consorts who are not given the title of "king") john k 14:08, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing in the conventions that makes a distinction between male and female consorts, or between kings-consort and "mere" princes who were consorts. I believe that the naming convention is appropriately applied to male consort. To draft exceptions, additional rules, etc, is needless when the convention fits. Charles 20:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consorts 

message: Am I right in thinking that the lack of a prefix for royal consorts only applies to female ones? I stumbled across Prince George of Denmark and Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and noticed they have now been moved, dropping the Prince. George and Albert were always referred to as Prince G/A when I was at school and Mary of Teck and Alexandra of Denmark as such, amongst others. Have the page moves been a bit overzealous, or was I mistaught? Craigy (talk) 17:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, in Canada, I always hear Albert referred to as Prince Albert or The Prince Consort. No one I've heard uses Saxe-Coburg and Gotha because they don't know how to say it. However, under the current rules, consorts are to be named a certain way and Albert and George are no less consorts than Mary of Modena, Alexandra of Denmark, et cetera. Charles 18:22, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Btw, I changed this to have a heading. I hope you don't mind. Charles 18:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The consort rules were not originally made thinking about male consorts.  The reason we don't use "Princess" with Alexandra and Mary is because they attained a higher title - "Queen."  This is not true of Prince George or Prince Albert, who remained princes throughout their lives.  Trying to apply this policy to male consorts is misguided.  (It should be used, perhaps, with king consorts like Francisco d'Assis of Spain or Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg in Portugal, but certainly not with consorts who are not given the title of "king") john k 14:08, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing in the conventions that makes a distinction between male and female consorts, or between kings-consort and "mere" princes who were consorts. I believe that the naming convention is appropriately applied to male consort. To draft exceptions, additional rules, etc, is needless when the convention fits. Charles 20:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Male consorts 

message: There is the clear mentions that "this convention applies only to European and Muslim covilization, because there the same first names are shared between countriues and disambiguation by using of+country is useful". This disambiguation need does nopt extend topagan Lithuanian monarchs, whose first names are shared ny no other country. Thus of+country is redundant there, systematically redundant. I understand if there were one or a few with names used also in other countrues - then consistency would be a nice thing and alm the others get the of+country too. But none among these. Accordingly, editiors have created their articles under first names only, it means Algirdas, Vytautas the Great, Kestutis, Skirgaila, Jaunutis etc. I think I'll add one example to the guideline page of these and/or mention pagan Lithuania among those where of+country is not needed and not to be used in article names. Maed 10:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't Lithuania part of "European civilization"?  Most of its inhabitants were Christian, at least. john k 12:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether they were part of European civilizaton in days whe their last rulers were pagan, can of course always be discussed.A clear line cannot be drawn from that, as it can be disputed. My idea is based on the fact that of+country is not needed for their disambiguation (none of them are ambiguate), and of+country is used because (and if) it is needed for disambiguation. We should not extend these cumbersome conventions to dynasties where the ground for the cumbersome system does not apply. Maed 12:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We do not use technicalities here in Wikipedia, we use realities. For example, in names, such that are used, not such that are just the legal name but (almost) unknown. Therefore, the technical independence up to Sigismund II August does not mean very much. I limited my exampling above quite much to the pagan period. Which was something they did not were fully part of European civilization. And did not share same first names with other countries. I am not saying that Sigismunds the Old and the August, nor Casimir IV nor Alexander are to be named so - I listed some of those examples I mean. Thanks for criticisms, it hopefully helps to write a sentence which is not too open. Maed 19:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The overall ground for territorial disambiguation (=same first names shared between several countries), as mentioned in the preamble of the NC itself, is actually a very good criterion to reason this issue also, i.e what are exceptions from the pre-emptive naming rule "firstname+ordinal+of+territory". Maed 23:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it "obvious" that Algirdas is from Lithuania? In any case, this cannot be generalized to an exception for non-Christians. The early Germanic rulers used the same name-stock as their Christian descendants; and this policy is intended to apply to Moslems. (The reason that the Hellenistic kings do not, and should not, come under this rule is that they are disambiguated by a set of nicknames which is generally used and does disambiguate; virtues which are not found elsewhere. Even so, there is Antiochus IV of Commagene.) Septentrionalis 21:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Treatment of Lithuanian pagan monarchs 

message: BTW, we should never refer to Polish monarchs named "Wladyslaw" by the name "Ladislas" or "Ladislaus".  This is deeply confusing, because the two are not the same name.  "Ladislas" is the traditional Latinization of the Hungarian name "Laszlo."  However, when Polish "Wladyslaw"'s became kings of Hungary, they were known not as "Laszlo" but as "Ulaszlo" - the two names are not the same.  Wladyslaw could be Latinized as "Vladislaus," I think; I've also seen "Vladislav" which is more phonetic to how the Polish name is pronounced in English.  But that's stupid.  We should just leave it at "Wladyslaw", since there's no clear English alternative. john k 16:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, they are basically the same name. See Ladislaus - a relatively good account of the name and its evolution throughout Slavic cultures (although it can be improved yet, there are some unused pieces of info in German etc wikis). (and this whole etymology issue could rather be at Talk:Ladislaus.) The difference you refer to, is just a 15th-century quirk with a bunch of (V)Ladislases floating in different places and a slight pronouncing difference - a difference that is much smaller than the variants flowing around in all these countries. Laszlo, which you mentioned, is a Hungarian spelling of Vladislas (Ulaszlo is another), which name originally came to Hungarian presumably with the first king Laszlo who was born in Poland and got to return his ancestral country only when adult. It is very clear that he got his first name when in Poland and guess what is was. The small difference you referred to is a thing that is even nowadays treated in different ways in different works of reference. You see, many encyclopedias and history books put Polish Vladislases to the variant Ladislaus too (which leaves possibly only those two funny Ulaszlos as a different animal.) We are talking about Middle Ages now, and the renditions of names have so many variances in different sources (have you seen those medieval documents where the same person is written differently in one sentence and in another way in another sentence of the same pergament?) that we cannot put so much value to them as we now treat as different if a currently living American is Juan or John or Jon or Johnny in his birth certificate. We can just do what works of reference have done, and at most, try to keep some consistency with naming of articles (which hopefully is also the main appellation in texts here), mentioning all other variants somewhere in the explanation sections of the article. Shilkanni 17:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They can be considered the same, and certainly are by Poles. But on the other hand, they are considered different by Hungarians. The difference is that László was borrowed earlier, not necessarily from Polish (in fact, Polish and German Wikis you quoted at Talk:Ladislaus claim that it was borrowed to Polish from Hungary!) and Ulászló later, this time undoubtedly from Polish. So we can consider Ladislaus a represantation of an earlier Hungarian form, and Wladislaus/Vladislaus of a Polish one. (Although all forms share the same saint patron - St. Ladislaus) Cyon 21:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the same saint patron is one of the crucial points whether names are truly different or just spelling variants. And, because we cannot do anything to differentiate fully two names which are not fully differentiated in all relevant literature, we are stuck in a situation where they go as variants. So, John, there are legitimate referrals of Polish monarchs as "Ladislaus", and that's a fact. Shilkanni 23:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymology of Ladislaus

message: I agree that the conventions should be revamped. I actually thought that we can work from bottom up (revise the convention for Polish monarchs first) and when that would gain consensus, we could use it as a basis to reform the main nc for monarchs. Apparently it was not as easy as I suspected, but I am glad to see there are others who agree that the current NC are not good (even if we disagree on the various parts they are not good). Let me shortly propose the following naming scheme:
* first name: widely accepted English name, as proposed and seems acceptable at WN(GN) (all encyclopedias and 75%+ of academic souurces use a single name). If this is not the case, then the local (most relevant country the ruler ruled) name should be used, as otherwise we will quarrel until the end of universe which of the several applicable English names should be used, and there is only usually only one stabilshed local name.
* use roman numerals because they are tiny and informative
* second name: use only one - either nickname ('the Old') or a surnames, as per above. In case of nicknames English ones should always be used, as they are easy to understand by readers of en-Wiki. In case of surnames, they are not translated usually, although in case of dynastical surnames if the waEn as described above would be satisfied, we can use the translated surname
* use 'of country' only when there is a need for disambig, OR if it is commonly used as waEn, OR determine on a country per country base if it is not too long
Comments?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be quite irksome to have Henry IV of France succeded by Louis XIII.  The current naming conventions work perfectly well in 95% of cases.  And most European monarchs have neither surnames nor nicknames. john k 23:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I wrote, it may be changed per country basis; most Polish monarchs have either surnames or a nicknames (actually I can't think of a single one who doesn't, with the exception of Mieszko I).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:10, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: What is commonly used then? As I have shown here (the Brave), here (the Restorer) and here (Herman) at the very least 3 out of 3 comprehensive analysis I done indicate that indeed nicknames are very common for Polish monarchs. Perhaps those three are aberrant exceptions - prove me wrong by doing similar analaysis on several other monarchs. Perhaps Augustus III the Saxon is an exception, although I can certainly find some references using his nicknames (Augustus the Saxon (4), August III the Saxon (2), August III Saxon (2)) although it does appear that 'Augustus III of Poland' is more popular (76). However before you tick this one for 'your side', please consider that 'Augustus III of Saxony' is EVEN MORE POPULAR (87). August seems to be less popular then Augustus, although 'August III of Saxony' still wins (17) against 'Augustus of Poland' (11). So shall we renaim him to 'Augustus III of Saxony'? This shows well the folly of following our guidelines and 'sticking to the letter of the law' instead the spirit, as we should. His Polish nickname is Sas which basically means Saxon, indicating he was of Saxon dynasty (kind of like Jagiełło part in Władysław III Jagiełło refers to the Jagiellon dysnasty), but apparently it was translated into English as 'of Saxony' (and coupled with refs to him before he was elected), mean that his most popular nickname is 'of Saxony'. This however collides with our guidelines which would treat this as 'of dominant country'. For that reason I think that the nickname we decided, 'the Saxon', is the best of both worlds: preserves the original meaning (relation to the dynasty), means basically the same as 'of Saxon' yet should not confuse the reader to think he was the King of Saxony.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Er, he wasn't "Augustus III of Saxony" he was "Frederick Augustus II of Saxony" (a name which he shares with a later King of Saxony, his great-grandson). The title "Augustus III of Saxony" is deeply misleading as a title. john k 22:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: As I said above, perhaps the current NC is good for many cases, but it is certainly not good for Polish (and Lithuanian) monarchs. If we leave it as it is, then we need specific exceptions for them.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Piotrus proposal

message: My proposal is to stick with the current policy.  It has its problems, but is still basically sound.  john k 13:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. --Elonka 17:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Agreed. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 20:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Disagreed. It may work for some countries, but is not practical with Polish monarchs, producing strange and sometimes controversial and completly ORed names.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If it produces OR, then it is being misapplied; a policy which consists largely of following English usage should not produce anything original. It will, and I think should, produce different results than the Polish wikipedia. Septentrionalis 20:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Agreed. With the proviso that "basically sound" has a lot of elasticity. But I am not yet ready to propose, much less argue for, useful revisions. Septentrionalis 20:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed.  My basic position is that any revision should build on the current naming convention, rather than jettisoning them and starting anew. I'm open to sensible revisions. john k 22:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oppose. I am very sympathetic to John's intent and reasoning here, but am disheartened by the frequency with which the current rules are flouted. I'm not talkling about the occasional difficult case where reasonable people may reasonably disagree (e.g. Victoria, Princess Royal or Alexandra Fyodorovna of Hesse). Rather, I refer to cases where the best-known name in English is rejected to apply criteria not in the naming conventions at all or openly contrary to them (e.g. Ernst August V, Prince of Hanover or Caroline, Princess of Hanover or Princess Astrid, Archduchess of Austria-Este). There just doesn't seem to be enough "buy-in" to these current rules for people to feel bound to comply with them. That leaves those who do feel so obliged frustrated that the "rule-breakers" have, by default, become the "rule-makers" because they're willing to make unilateral moves prior to discussion, to ignore discussion when they can't refute it, or to jettison rule-compliance the moment they get to vote on a name whose look they don't care for. Note, in recent votes on re-naming, how seldom the in-force conventions are cited as grounds, versus some criterion which the voter thinks should be the applicable naming convention. Abandoning the current rules would 1. confer upon those who tend to be "rule-compliant" the same license as the "non-compliant" exercise; 2. allow wide notice to be given of discussions and votes here that currently engage too narrow a group of editors in choosing rules "outsiders" won't respect. The nature of this page is such as to draw editors who have some current or historical interest in matters monarchical or noble. But most of those who object, for example, to ex-royals retaining monarchical page names tend, rather, to follow articles on particular nations in which they're interested. They won't weigh in until they stumble across articles that (they feel) treat their nation's deposed royals too deferentially. Why not invite them here before we vote on new rules, and avert future edit wars? 3. Allow a period of "official" anarchy here that may exhaust editors sufficiently for them to be willing to adopt new conventions (albeit the same as the old), to comply with those adopted, and to refuse to support the non-compliance of others. Sorry, John. Lethiere 00:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Support John's position and agree with Septentrionalis. -- Philip Baird Shearer 22:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: John's proposal

message: Please list your proposals as level three subheadings above. I suggest waiting for a straw poll at least a week so others can work out their proposals and we will see if any of them have more support then the current one. I suggest using first choice/second choice votes wort 2 and 1 points respectively.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Other proposals

message: Since this seems to be a more centralized discussion location, I thought I'd bring it up here.  There seems to have been another Polish-language issue which was being discussed on a fairly isolated page, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geography of Poland, which could probably benefit from a more cross-cultural review with a wider variety of participants.  As a quick summary: The discussion there is lengthy, but seems to be comprised mostly of members of the Polish noticeboard, and in places even lapses into the Polish language itself, as Piotrus quotes an "expert opinion" from a Polish official, but as near as I can tell, the question is whether the word "Province" should be replaced by the word "Voivodship", with a vote started in March 2006 at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geography of Poland#Województwa vote.  Should this discussion perhaps be moved here instead?  I'd like to ensure that it has the opportunity to be reviewed by a genuine cross-section of the Wikipedia community. A related move war seems to be going on at other pages such as Małopolska Voivodship (aka Lesser Poland Voivodship), and a discussion at Talk:Voivodships of Poland, which appears (to me) to have a consensus for the word "Province", though admin Piotrus disagreed. --Elonka 19:10, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This issue would certainly benefit from a review. Two notes: 1) the "expert opinion" which Elonka put in quotes for some reason is an opinion of the president of the Polish translating society which basically sais there is no golden rule and all variants have pros and cons and can be debated forever. 2) Could you elaborate where it appeears to you there is a consensus I disagree with? I don't recall a single vote on that page... On the other hand there was a vote at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Geography_of_Poland#Wojew.C3.B3dztwa_vote in which I did not participate, although I agree with the consensus reached.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:38, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another Polish question - Province v. Voivodship 

message: Interested editors are invited to participate in:  a poll on whether or not to use diacritics in the titles of Polish monarchs. --Elonka 18:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Poll closed.  Consensus was to rename to "Boleslaw I of Poland" --Elonka 04:32, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Related polls on Polish monarchs

message: Now, I forgot one thing: What of "Crown Prince Wilhelm of Germany"? Shouldn't his titled be affixed to the end of his forename, as with all other past crown princes (who never acceded?) and current crown princes? Depending on whether William or Wilhelm is more appropriate (I prefer William, of course, but common usage may say otherwise), he would be at William, German Crown Prince or Wilhelm, German Crown Prince. Charles 17:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've taken the liberty to make this a subheading, so that it will remain and will stay placed under the "emperor discussion" for reference. Charles 17:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

text: how was he styled? "Crown Prince Wilhelm" or "The Crown Prince". that should determine with title to use.--Jiang 21:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it wouldn't. The Crown Prince could have been called Crown Prince William, The Crown Prince or, outside Germany or in other German states, The German Crown Prince or German Crown Prince William. Whether or not his forename was included does not determine his title. Charles 23:04, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: why not? It is the difference between Charles, Prince of Wales and Prince William of Wales. The former is "The Prince of Wales" and never "Prince Charles of Wales" --Jiang 00:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Crown Prince is not a title that is shared amongst members of a family. There is only one Crown Prince for any given royal/imperial family. For instance, the children of a Crown Prince are not all crown princes and crown princesses in the same way that the children of a King and Queen are not all kings and queens. Charles 01:59, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But frequently "Crown Prince" isn't an official title, unlike "Prince of Wales" or "King of Prussia". john k 19:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree.  Prince of Wales is an actual title and as such belongs in proper usage, expecially for those princes of Wales who never lived to become king. Imladjov 16:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Was there ever a proclaimation as to the title of Crown Prince of Prussia with regard to the German Empire? I am certain that there was never such a person as a "Crown Prince of Germany". Charles 01:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If he was not crown prince of Germany, that's clear enough reason to move him to crown prince of Prussia. Would you continue the discussion about naming of precisely one article at its talk page, Talk:Crown Prince Wilhelm of Germany, please. There, all evidence about what he was called in English sources, and what he was proclaimed and what not, should be given. This individual's naming is obviously not a question of principle, but about individual facts. Shilkanni 19:17, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  William, German Crown Prince 

message: There are a bunch of monarchs in mists of Middle Ages whose titles are not very easy. Possibly the title has no established version in English. Or the translation may be misleading. Or not very much distinguishes these from kings - all we know, they may have been regarded as kings contemporaneously, and only later reconstructs of titles have lead to something else.
And then, totally another example, is William I of Albania whose title in Albanian was King, but abroad Prince.
I recommend to treat those medieval monarchs like they were kings. That would be simplest solution to uncertainty of translation of title, SINCE KINGS ACTUALLY DO NOT HAVE A TITLE IN THE ARTICLE NAME. Doing this, Wikipedia avoids quarrels over the proper title, its translation and its level. In my opinion, it is bad to put something constestable into the article name. With these monarchs, there is a systematical possibility of the translation or interpretation of their titles getting contested.
Examples include Nemanja of Serbia, a reigning prince whose son was the first to be officially crowned as king; Dan I of Wallachia whose realm now is regarded as principality though he was without any real subjugation to any higher king, and therefore much like king in his realm; Boris I of Bulgaria whose son was the first to be officially crowned as Tsar; Vladimir I of Kiev who (titled "grand duke") was more powerful than many kings and was undoubtedly regarded as sort of high king at his time. One of rather common characteristics for those examples is they were Eastern Europeans and their titles only got much later constructs and analogs, which themselves are not necessarily unanimously accepted. Marrtel 12:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I agree.  The purpose of the "lower level monarchs include their title" rule is particularly to deal with things like Electors of Saxony, and so forth.  I think that for early eastern rulers, who often had a title like "Grand Duke" while being very powerful, we should stick to treating them like kings. john k 09:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I also agree with Marrtel.  Boris of Bulgaria was actually king and Vladimir I the equivalent, although that usage never made it to Russia (technically the title "grand prince" -- or less accurately "grand duke" -- is a late 12th-century invention). Imladjov 16:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sovereign monarchs of unclear level 

message: How are we to name the titular Emperors and Empress of Russia? For instance, we have Grand Duke Cyril Vladimirovich of Russia, Grand Duke Vladimir of Russia and Maria Vladimirovna of Russia. The latter I moved to Maria Vladimirovna, Grand Duchess of Russia following the format usually used for pretenders or exiled heads to a throne (i.e, George Frederick, Prince of Prussia and Ernest Augustus, Prince of Hanover). I feel the move was consistent with what is on Wikipedia already (the pretenders and Maria being referred to as Grand Duchess), however I feel it still needs to be discussed. Should we include patronyms and should the title remain in front of the forename or should it be appended to the end? I feel it should be tacked on the end. Charles 04:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Her title "Grand Duchess" is not above controversy. There are reasonable opinions that she is entitled to just "princess of Russia", or only to morganatic titles, and also that is controversial what is used of her. At one time, the article seems to have been at Maria Romanov. In my opinion, the article name should not endorse any of these titles. Grand duchess is therefore dangerous, POV. And, by the way, look what happened to the article and to the place, quite immediately, after Charles made that undiscussed move. That seems to confirm that endorsing any title to her article name leads to problems and potential warring. ObRoy 08:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, it took 29 minutes. User:Watercool seems intent on persisting with the cut-and-paste fork, despite the warning given. Congratulations, Charles. ObRoy 09:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have a problem with what I do, take it to my talk page, rather than leaving snide remarks in a place where policy is discussed. You're the last person who should be doing that and seem intent on accusing me, as seen in the page edit for the fork that Watercooler created, not I. Charles 18:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Agreed. She should at leat have "Grand Duchess" and "of Russia" included. Charles 18:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses 

message: The desperate situation in Polish monarchs seems to be starting to solve, as some of my requests for move got closed today. Yhe situation has been, how do I say, something like ridiculous. At the polls now closed, there were three sockpuppets of one Polish editor, fabricating the size of the minority, apparently in real terms only some six persons, to about ten. As there usually was a majority of something like 13-16 editors, this meants results that hanged close, closer than they really were. There also was certain delaying tactics from some of the minority's vocal representatives: denials of sockpuppetry, repeated bids for new vote, and move wars over some moved articles. For some reason, representatives of that minority camp always want to start a poll at situation where the page is at their preferred location. Future: there are about 50 articles of Polish monarchs. At this time, about ten to twelve of them are in locations guided by this naming convention, whereas as many as forty may (and will) need moving. It appears that representatives of that minority are demanding that each article's move can happen only as result of a requested move process. It moreover appears that in some cases they are demanding return of their positions and new polls also to those already moved articles. (Interesting development: one of those vocal representatives demanding new votes, got himself blocked for one year today in an unrelated editwarring situation. One vote less for that minority for a period of 365 days.)
The present situation can be viewed at . 
What is more alarming, is that very many of the remaining wrongly-named monarchs have certain individual problematic features which may make even those who are familiar with this general monarch naming here, to split in opinions.
As you can see from the category link above, the chief wrongs with remaining forty wrongly-nameds are:
* use of non-English first name, in practice means that a Polish spelling has been thrust upon English Wikipedia
* liberal use of nicknames, a thing generally forbidden in our naming conventions.
* lack of the territory-part of our pre-emptive naming formula: for most of these monarchs, it of course is "of Poland", but for some inexplicable reason, the words "of Poland" seem to be poison to many ethnically Polish editors. Sometimes it is poison to neihgboring Lithuanian editors, but this far, I have not seen them as big problem.
By the way, as far as I know usages in Polish language and culture, they have a real custom to call all sorts of monarchs by nickname appellations. There very rarely is any territory as designation, and if such exists, it regularly is for example the province where a king came from to rule the whole country. Like we "could" call Edward IV as Edward IV of York and Henry IV of France as Henry IV of Bourbon. But most usually all appellations are nicknames.
The history of these odd-looking names currently employed, starts from late 2005, half a year ago, when most or all of these monarchs were at places like "Wladislaus V of Poland". A group of editors, it seems all ethnically Polish, started to create a specific scheme to name Polish monarchs, and did it somewhere in a talkpage of some English Wiki's Polish project. Three such editors arrived at their own agreement, and moved all these articles to those so-called Polish names, of which you see many examples yet in the category. Opposition from a few non-Polish editors with that discussion did not deter them. After that, all efforts of others to move any of those monarchs to either their original page names, or to any Naming Convention -compatible name, have been reverted by representatives of said minority, usually by explanations "agreed in naming convention for Polish monarchs" or "discussion is ongoing, do not move". Marrtel 23:51, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh my God. They are a complete mess. It is like looking at the notorious mess that Wikipedia's royalty pages used to be circa 2002, when people used regional names, bad translations, heck any old thing as a name oblivious to the fact that at best no-one outside their country had a clue who the articles were about. At worst there were so many bad translations and makey-up names that even the people in the original countries hadn't a clue who on earth the articles were about. Perhaps the best solution is to return the articles en bloc to the version that corresponds the to NC and MoS names and then debate properly if any should be moved anywhere else. The current situation is a farce. It reminds me of when a user un unilaterally tried to rename Japanese emperors and produced such a mess that in the end even he didn't know what was where and end up constantly reverting himself. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 01:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Hmm, yes, this is an irritating situation.  I think that the test cases done show a sufficient consensus support for using anglicized names like Sigismund, Casimir, and the like.  Beyond that, I think we can say A) that Piotrus's naming conventions have proved not to have any consensus support behind them; and that thus B) we should go back to what this page says as the default.  A problem, though, is that B isn't all that clear.  What exactly do naming conventions say the monarchs who are referred to in modern Polish as "Władysław" should be called?  We have as possibilities Władysław, Wladyslaw, Wladislaus, Wladislas, Vladislaus, Vladislas, Vladislav, Ladislaus, Ladislas...possibly some others, as well.  I'm not sure that a massive fix is going to work. john k 03:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It does appear you are correct. Regarding the first name, this very dilemma convinced me to use a Polish name - since we have only one, and we cannot make a godo choice regarding an English one. However it does appear that my solution seemes to have not gained support of the community. I honestly don't know what else could we do, other then addopting some sort of 'count Google Books or encyclopedias and see which version is dominant' as I suggested above (with specific mechanics as in the WP:GN proposal linked above. On that note, I would also like to recommend reading the words of a professional historian regarding the usage of Polish names in English academic literature: Talk:Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth#Words_of_wisdom. What about the 'second part'? Would the following variant be acceptable to the community: 'First name as we decide later - roman numeral - nickname/surname - of Poland'? I am not happy with 'of Poland' for reasons explained above (Lithuania...) but if we have to have 'of country', can we have the nickname/surnames which as my Google Books searches (some of which I linked above) show are quite popular with some kings in English literature? Is, for example, 'Boleslaw I the Brave of Poland' be acceptable?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not according to the present convention. If he's as well known under Boleslaw the Brave as Henry the Lion or even Frederick the Great, he doesn't need dabbing; if not, he should be at Boleslaw I of Poland. But Elonka's tests seem to be informative; a move request between the Brave and of Poland, with the Great of Poland as an alternative on an approval survey, might be worth it. Septentrionalis 17:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish monarchs - update 

message: I've been unable to find any reference works which refer to this 13th century Piast monarch by the name Władysław I the Elbow-high (more often he seems to be Władysław I the Short, or Wladyslaw Lokietek), so I am going to suggest moving the page to a different title.  At the moment, I am collecting data at Talk:Władysław I the Elbow-high as to how he is referred to in different reference works.  If anyone has data to add (or suggestions for a new title), please feel free to participate. --Elonka 17:55, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Władysław I the Elbow-high]] 

message: Hi. There is a move request for several Palaeologus/Palaiologos dynasty emperors at Talk:List of Byzantine Emperors. It has been requested, infact, as a form to decide the Naming convention for Byzantine Emperors. I tought some of you might be interested in.--Panairjdde 22:23, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move request for emperors of the Palaeologus/Palaiologos dynasty 

message: I'm sure this one throws up many issues, but I have started the ball rolling at Talk:David. In many ways it is the start of whether we sould take a more consistent approach towards firstname articles. However in the case of King David, the article is already heavily linked as 'King David' although both the titles 'David' and 'King David' would be at odds with naming guidelines here. -- Solipsist 06:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have commented, at some length, there. On the general question, I think  it depends on which name. There is a primary use for David, or Elijah; there isn't one for John. Septentrionalis 20:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it depends on the name, and at the moment we are thoroughly inconsistent. See also for example Sarah and Merlin. The only NPOV approach I can think of is to treat all first names as articles on the name itself, or disambigs for people and places that use that name. For the article at David, it is not even the case that most editors naturally link to it that way. -- Solipsist 21:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And we ought to be inconsistent; English is. Septentrionalis 23:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move request David -> King David 

message: Some people want to move John II Casimir of Poland to John II Casimir Vasa. I believe that move is against this naming convention which forbids use of nicknames (if not overwhelmisgly best known by it) and surnames when titling kings. Moreover, they want to remove the "of Poland" which is designated as a pre-emtive disambiguation - and there have been monarchs named John Casimir in other places. For some unknown reasons, Polish monarchs have long been a target of desires to always diverge from naming conventions. Could you visit that RM at Talk:John II Casimir of Poland and give your opinion whether the nickname/surname is or isn't really necessary there. Suedois 07:33, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Part of the problem with some of these monarchs, as I see it, is that they were often monarchs of/from so many countries (especially when the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was involved), that the "of Poland" suffix isn't entirely accurate, and can indeed be perceived as antagonistic to some other nationalities who claim the same royal, and are struggling, after the breakup of the Soviet Union, to re-establish their own national identities.  For some of the other western European monarchs, I agree that it makes sense (and looks more tidy) to add the distinguisher "of England", "of France", "of Spain," etc., because that was their primary country.  But for some of the "Polish" monarchs, when there is clear controversy about which country they "belonged" to, I believe that it makes sense to test if there is consensus to omit that part of the suffix, as well as to carefully scrutinize how outside reference works (Encyclopedia Britannica, Columbia Encyclopedia, Encarta, etc.) refer to them.  It is a standard Wikipedia policy to follow the lead of outside sources. --Elonka 16:47, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But the solution, as indicated in present policy, is to decide which realm he is most notable as ruler of. I see no question that Sweden, in his grandfather's case, and Russia, in his father's, are less notable as realms of these Vasas. This leaves the realm of Poland, or Poland-Lithuania (or, I suppose, Lithuania). Whether we call it Poland, as we call Henry of France and Navarre Henry IV of France; or whether we call it Poland-Lithuania, as we call another realm Austria-Hungary, is a question of English usage, on which I will not argue before seeing the evidence. Septentrionalis 15:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

text: John II Casmir Vasa forms a 'trio' of Polish Vasas, starting with Sigismund III Vasa, going to Władysław IV Vasa and ending with John II Casimir Vasa. I don't see why their name should not illustrate their small dynasty, epecially as they are habitually reffered to as 'Vasas' in the English academic literature, up to an including a fairly popular term "Polish Vasas".-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  is surname/ nickname overwhelmingly necessary in John II Casimir's article name? 

message: I have put myself up for adminship, partly to deal with the recurrent backlog on WP:RM. This page and the related topics are the closest I have come to administrative responsibilities, and I would appreciate your opinion at  Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Pmanderson. Septentrionalis 20:54, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Adminship request

message: Has anyone noticed that all of the articles on early Scottish monarchs have been moved to the Gaelic forms?  This seems to be in direct violation of all applicable naming conventions. john k 03:25, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Discussions are concluded.  The decision was to restore the articles to their English names. --Elonka 04:37, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scottish monarchs 

message: All of the following name changes are being discussed at Talk:Cináed I of Scotland#Requested move:
* Cináed I of Scotland → Kenneth I of Scotland
* Cináed II of Scotland → Kenneth II of Scotland
* Cináed III of Scotland → Kenneth III of Scotland
* Domnall I of Scotland → Donald I of Scotland
* Domnall II of Scotland → Donald II of Scotland
* Domnall III of Scotland → Donald III of Scotland
* Donnchad I of Scotland → Duncan I of Scotland
* Donnchad II of Scotland → Duncan II of Scotland
* Máel Coluim I of Scotland → Malcolm I of Scotland
* Máel Coluim II of Scotland → Malcolm II of Scotland
* Máel Coluim III of Scotland → Malcolm III of Scotland
An  approval poll is in-process, as of August 28.  All interested editors are invited to participate. --Elonka 01:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Discussions are concluded.  The decision was to restore the articles to their English names. --Elonka 04:37, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move update