Talk:H.M.S. Pinafore

message: "According to discographer Marc Shepherd, the [Brent Walker] Pinafore video "is widely considered one of the worst" in the series." It's not merely among the worst, it's downright embarrassing. But the actor playing Ralph is a middle-aged, bearded fellow. Josephine is in love with a man who could be her father! (Elektra, anyone?) The revelation of who Ralph really is no longer an absurdity. WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 22:49, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: the one I just watched, directed by Judith de Paul, was pretty bad.  The singing was fine, but obviously dubbed over.  The Captain did it in burlesque.  And Ralph looked just like her father, which made it a little cringy.--142.163.194.7 (talk) 01:25, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: getting Ralph's age right

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: I always hesitate to edit FA articles, but I am surprised that there is no mention of John Philip Sousa's Pinafore arrangement which is probably the best known of the pirated Pinafore productions and which was in wide use in Australia for many years (his arrangement was published). There is an excellent journal article on Sousa's Pinafore if anyone cares to add some content on this into the "Taking Pinafore to the United States" section. See:  Also this 1910 article from The Musician might give some perspective on that production, given that the author singled it out as particularly important. See:  On a side note, I just created an article on the playwright Louis De Lange who was Sir Joseph in the Sousa Pinafore. Best. 4meter4 (talk) 06:06, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Tim riley and User:Adam Cuerden, what do you think about this? I have a very busy day ahead, but I will read the journal article and think about this tomorrow. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:44, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: First, thanks to 4meter4 for such a scrupulous approach. Would that some other editors were as reluctant to barge in and edit FA texts! As to the suggestion, I can't conscientiously express a view. I've never heard of Sousa's version, but as I'm British that's probably to be expected (though I'm surprised that a pirate version was allowed in Australia). Certainly Sousa himself is notable, and if others feel his pirate version of Pinafore is notable I shall not demur. Tim riley talk 15:34, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You are welcome, . I think one could mention it briefly, perhaps through the window of Gilbert and Sullivan actually attending a performance of the Sousa production which is an interesting tidbit. I do think a mention of its wide use in Australia for decades (see the Abstract on page 517) would be warranted. Perhaps some mention of Sousa's orchestration practices, but that may be too esoteric. I will leave it to you two on how detailed to get. I should think a couple of additional sentences should be all that is needed for a brief mention, but there is clearly enough detail in the sources to craft a paragraph if you all wish to go there. I will leave it to your discretion.4meter4 (talk) 18:22, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Just noting an error in my original comment above, the orchestration was not published (the libretto from the Sousa production with cast bios was published but not the music), although copies of the orchestral parts were sold to the J. C. Williamson Opera Company in Australia; copies of which circulated on that continent. The Sousa orchestral parts are in the collection of the State Library of New South Wales as is an incomplete copy of Sousa’s original score in the Library of Congress. Best.4meter4 (talk) 18:49, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you very much for this, and for the excellent journal article. I added a sentence about this to the appropriate part of the article.  First, the journal article does not state that this was the most successful pirated version.  It did tour extensively, but there were other very successful productions, and this one started off as an amateur production and only seems to have gotten up to snuff around halfway through the tour. The journal article only says that the production was the "best documented" one.  Second, the journal article has little nice to say about the orchestrations, comparing them very unfavorably to Sullivans, and stating that Sousa's much later recollection that Sullivan praised them is "dubious". Third, it says that the parts that were later sold to Williamson had seen "considerable use", but it does not compare it to the number of times that Williamson used the authorized parts -- Williamson played Pinafore extensively from 1879 to the 1960s, and I doubt very much that the Sousa parts were used nearly as often as Sullivan's. Fourth, there were 150 U.S. productions of Pinafore, and I think it does not add much to the article to single out individual ones for extensive discussion. So, per WP:BALASP, I think one long-ish sentence is either enough or more than enough. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:23, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I am aware of all of that from the journal article. As for the best of the pirated versions, see Robert Grau's article provided above who singled out the production as "by far the best of all the Pinafores" up to that point in time on the American stage (article written in 1910).4meter4 (talk) 19:54, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  It may have been "the best", but I'm skeptical of that article.  For one thing, it calls Sir Joseph "the Admiral", which he isn't, and which shows a basic misunderstanding of the Royal Navy and the relationship between Sir Joseph and Captain Corcoran.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:03, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I think if you look, you will find other reviews and sources with similar evaluations. Gilbert and Sullivan themselves acknowledged that they would have to hire better singers than what they used in England after seeing this cast. It was very well reviewed.4meter4 (talk) 20:07, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: No doubt, well received and well-sung, agreed.  I think the fact that we single it out in the article, along with only the original Boston company, indicates its importance appropriately. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:11, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I do think some clarity is warranted though in terms of the tour's significance in the article. Mentioning it played in major American theatres gives a better sense of the tour. Otherwise it seems like a nominal amateur company. One doesn't play the Walnut Street Theatre and the Gaiety Theatre on Broadway typically as an amateur company. These were amateur artists playing successfully in top theatres and reviewed with excellent reviews by the major theatre critics of the day.4meter4 (talk) 20:19, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Pinafore productions played at nearly every Broadway theatre and all the major urban theatres up and down the US. Walnut Street Theatre is not more important than the theatres where many, many of the other Pinafores played.  This one played at the Broadway Theatre (later called Daly's) and the Park Theatre after Walnut.  I don't see any reason to mention them. You can note them in De Lange's article if you think it helps there. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:31, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: That may be, but I still think the modern reader doesn't glean the facts or context of the tour from the current article text which downplays it to the point of being unrecognizable. Without better details, it reads as an inaccurate portrayal in my opinion.4meter4 (talk) 21:24, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Tim riley, or anyone, can you give us a 3rd opinion on this? -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:30, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the 38 words just added suffice on that point, and as to the amateur company, for my own part I shouldn't wish to see it singled out for detailed coverage. Having read the exchanges, above, I'm even more puzzled than I already was about why the Williamson company would want to use the Sousa orchestrations when they had the rights to use Sullivan's. (And you have the wrong paper in the fifth sentence of the relevant para: The Times did not review the production: you mean The New York Times.) – Tim riley talk 08:38, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Sousa Pinafore