Talk:Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany

message: Poland and History of Poland don't link here yet. Wetman 17:34, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inbound linking 

message: Whoever put the sentence:
The Free City of Danzig voted democratically to become a part of Germany again.
Democratically??
#Poles and Jews had no rights to vote
#all non-Nazi political parties were banned
#there were no referendum
Majority of citizens had choosen Nazi government in the democratic elections, yes that right. However, election of the enemies of democracy marked the end of democracy. Cautious 11:58, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accuracy 

message: What, no map? :o) — OwenBlacker 21:04, Jul 5, 2004 (UTC)
:See  -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map? 

message: "... Poles living on the German re-annexed territories were deprived of their human rights, and faced serious persecutions. By contrast, after World War II Germans living east of the Oder-Neisse Line were expelled to Germany..."  The use of the word "contrast" here suggests that the Poles discussed here would have preferred to have been expelled, since the Germans were expelled and that is contrasted favourably with the non-expulsion (but persecution) of the Poles.  The article thus claims, in effect, that the Poles were persecuted, in "contrast" to the Germans, who were presumably not persecuted because they were expelled instead.  Either expulsions are bad things or good things, I would think.  The fact that the article suggests expulsions of one ethnicity is bad (earlier in the article) but of another ethnicity is good makes no sense to me.Bdell555 21:54, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "in contrast" 

message: Since unlike the Soviets, Germans annexed only parts of Poland, and treated other as occupied territory, why not move this article to Polish areas annexed or occupied by Nazi Germany?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rename?

message: The map misinforms that only the 1939-1941 GG was occupied. What about Eastern Poland?Xx236 (talk) 10:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We need a better map. Perhaps you can make one? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  21:01, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The map 

message: Expanded a bit, added more info on specific measures against Poles in that region, and more numbers. Table of volksdeutsche is in the proper article, I see no need for it here in such form, also the usage of word indigenous is very unfortunate as it was largely Nazi propaganda.--Molobo (talk) 17:30, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expanded 

message: The text inserted by Skapperod claims that Germans from the "Altreich" (is that btw a Nazi era terminology?) did not form the colonists. However the term Altreich is also in regards to Sudety region from which 110.000 German colonists came as the text indicates. So it seems that people from "Altreich" did come. --Molobo (talk) 14:03, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sudetenland was part of Germany only after 1938. Skäpperöd (talk) 18:27, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction 

message: The data for 1939 presented by Skapperod as the number of Germans and Poles in 1939 was actually a Nazi claim made in Nazi organised census, which the author  herself points out in the book and warns that is is problematic. I would advise Skapperod once more to point out when Nazi propaganda is involved, and warn readers that the "data" is product of this regime(we had discussion about this in Prussian Settlement Comission before). The statements of Nazi Germany should only be presented as such, and in proper context. I added more scholary data on number of German minority as well as number of Jews in the region. I also corrected some terms, as both Poles and Jews were subject to both extermination and expulsion. I also deleted non-relevenat issues about "peace conference" about Recovered Territories that is of no connection to those territories. I added that former Nazi colonists and adminstration officials in that region are regarded as expelled by Germany. I also corrected the pursuit of Nazi collaborators.  If some people find that information needing references I will be happy to provide them .--Molobo (talk) 14:10, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: We should certainly avoid Nazi sources. Census in Germany should be expanded to provide info on unreliable ones. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  17:28, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The cited numbers were given by the source without saying they were unreliable. Skäpperöd (talk) 18:27, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Molobo wrote above "the author  herself points out in the book and warns that is is problematic". It would be nice to see a citation - not that there is any doubt that Nazi numbers are unreliable, anyway.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  18:45, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: 1939 census

message: As the areas have been merged with German ones the Nazi census was further manipulated.
But they are estimates of number of Germans in Polish areas and I will source them as soon as possible.
Additionall estimates for Germans settled are in the collaborative scholary work WYSIEDLENIA, WYPĘDZENIA I UCIECZKI 1939-1959. ATLAS ZIEM POLSKI 
And here
--Molobo (talk) 14:27, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You cannot just add a source as a "fact" and all else is a "claim". If you have a source giving different information, you have to properly attribute it and present it neutrally. I restored to the last version where everything was properly attributed to the source it is from. Skäpperöd (talk) 18:27, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: All reliable sources should be treated equally, unless they are highly controversial and require attribution. You "last version" attributed only Polish sources, implying they are unreliable or controversial and need an attribution, and presented data from other sources as facts. This is not the right approach to create a neutral article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  18:45, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please re-read the version I restored and you will see that not only Polish sources are attributed, but all sources which somehow differ from other sources in the article. No matter if Polish, English, or German. If two sources state something different, they need to be attributed and presented neutrally, not one as truth and one as claim. That's just basic WP:NPOV. I restored the attributed version, add whatever you find but attribute it properly. Skäpperöd (talk) 07:50, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Almost all Polish sources were attributed, and I saw almost no non-Polish sourcres attributed. That was rahter biased. Attribution is not needed, one can simply note that there are different estimates and use inline footnotes to let reader see where they are from. Further, the version you are restoring lacks my copyedit and Molobo's expansion, and finally, you have not addressed Molobo's comments about unreliability of some of your sources/numbers, which may come from Naiz propaganda sources. Please stop reverting until this is clear; feel free to edit the article and improve it based on the existing version.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  17:30, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not attribute only Polish sources, look at what you revert. Bramwell, Heinemann, Duiker, Segeti are definitely no Polish sources. Your "copyedit" was basically the removal of the attributions. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I did not like that "wholesale revert" of yours ether Skäpperöd. Lets try to work things out piece by piece next time please.--Jacurek (talk) 17:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Definite population data does not exist, all population numbers presented here are estimates (="opinion") of someone. Skäpperöd (talk) 14:19, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: And as long as we have clear inline citations, there is no need to bloat the article in bad style with intext attributions.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  19:13, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment If there is a genuine scholarly dispute regarding numbers perhaps that should be expanded on to inform the reader. This is not a paper encyclopedia so length issues should not hinder giving as much detail as could be warranted. Alternatively I suppose that you could in-text attribute the lower and higher bounds given by your sources and have the rest of the sources left as inline citations. Beware  Original Research. Unomi (talk) 10:11, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Sourcing

message: I think we should move Heinmann data to proper place in Reichsgau article. People are now confusing the data of those Reichsgau with Polish areas. Furthermore the data is complicated by the unreliability of the Nazi census she presented.What do you think --Molobo (talk) 17:24, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not sure if the data should be moved, but copying it is likely a good idea. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  18:45, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "People are now confusing the data of those Reichsgau with Polish areas." Who is confused by what? There were only the Reichsgaus, what Polish areas should this be confused with? The GG? It is always clearly addressed what area exactly is being talked about. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:50, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving Heinmann Reichsgaue 

message: I cut this paragraph from the article as it is not transporting any information. It reads
:"The German state used old Prussian propaganda during annexation, although only 43.942 sq. km only 23,933 were actually part of Prussia before 1918. The final structure of annexed territories and their distribution into German administritive units was made after disputes between local Nazi officials as well as Wehrmacht with all sides seeking to boost their influence and possesions. The overall dispute was settled by Hitler, neverthless throughout the war both military and officials continued with onesided attempts to change borders to their benefit."
This paragraph needs to be rewritten or left out:
*What "old Prussian propaganda" ?
*What number is right if any ?
*Who exactly had quarrels about what exactly with what counterpart and how was this solved ? Skäpperöd (talk) 14:27, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unencyclopedic paragraph 

message: Thanks Skäpperöd for making editions piece by piece, it so much easier to follow and understand.
Thanks again.--Jacurek (talk) 22:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You are welcome. Having one section about each "German privileges" and "repression of Poles" led to a situation where a lot of stuff was inserted twice, once as "Germans gained/were allowed foo" and second as "Poles/Jews lost/were forbidden the very same foo". I have instead introduced the sections "German privileges at the expense of Poles" and "Ethnic segregation", which are basically the same but structered according to content and not to ethnicity (though ethnicity is of course an aspect of the content). That way much redundant stuff got merged. For the repressions against Poles and Jews then not covered in the before sections, I renamed the remains of the former "Repressions" section to "Further repressions". These are basically those measures used by the Nazis to transform the remaining Polish populace into a less educated low-fertility population and the repressions that had no other purpose than being mean. 09:56, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany 

message: The number in the table (> 7 million) seems way too high. Heinemann says all Upper Silesia had 4.2 million inhabitants (Rasse, Siedlung ... p.229), Autonomous Silesian Voivodeship (annexed part minus two counties, ~half of Upper Silesia) article says 1.5 million in 1925. Maybe the numbers in the table are for all of Silesia? This needs to be checked. Skäpperöd (talk) 10:48, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I found a source mirroring the table that says it is "Province of Silesia" and not Upper Silesia. I changed that accordingly and attributed it to this source (not the best one, maybe someone has a better one?) Skäpperöd (talk) 16:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population data for Upper Silesia 

message: I've created a new article, since its something that seems to apply not only to annexed territories but also to General Government. I also noticed there there seem to be lack of categories for historical German administrative territories? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  19:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[German military administration in occupied Poland]] 

message: I updated the article, added new information in regards to Nazi repressions and measures, I added tables, new sections and data as to support for Nazi rule, number of incidents with friendly Germans reported, new demographic tables. Merged repressions as it was illogical to have the article split into two seperate repressive sections. Somebody removed from the lead that Jews and Poles were target of genocide-I restored it.
I will continue to update the article as time allows.--Molobo (talk) 13:58, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do not use books of 1970 and even before, they are unreliable. Also, the structure was logical before your rendering. First the plan, then the execution; also, now segregation is a subsection of repression of Poles and Jews, which is not accurate as seggregation affected the German population as well. Also, I think the repressive measures should be after the expulsion etc, as this was the primary goal and the repression was thought of as a kind of an intermediate state for the temporarily remaining Poles. Skäpperöd (talk) 12:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updated 

message: ...should not be used here. See this thread at WP:RS/N. Skäpperöd (talk) 12:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ...disagreed, per my post there. They can be used, with caution. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  12:00, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: During the Communist era, repressions were described by Łuczak in his book "Położenie ludności polskiej w Kraju Warty 1939-1945. Dokumenty niemieckie", published in the People's Republic of Poland in 1987:
When I read the above citation my observation is that the material posted is communist propaganda, a clever way to whitewash German crimes in Poland, imply that it is communist propaganda. Think!!--Woogie10w (talk) 13:41, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

text: This was fixed, for the time being--Woogie10w (talk) 18:39, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Piotrus is correct for reverting this outrageous attempt to tag Nazi war crimes in Poland as communist propaganda.--Woogie10w (talk) 11:38, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Not so, if you dispute an item, cite that particular item and dispute it at talk. Blanket tags like that are not acceptable, its another POV push on your part --Woogie10w (talk) 12:44, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Note well there are academic sources published in the good old USA that back up those posts by Polish scholars. .--Woogie10w (talk) 13:29, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

text: I won't engage in a discussion here to whether Poland was Communist before the Communist regime colapsed in 1989 or not, neither will I engage in a discussion to whether calling a Communist era source a Communist era source is vandalism. Skäpperöd (talk) 19:22, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources published during the Communist era 

message: Please keep in mind this is not the article about Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles. This is an article whose section should describe Nazi treatment of Poles on the annexed territories and make it clear how it differed from treatment of Poles in the General Government. Only if the treatment differed it should be described there, there is no need to repeat the content of the Nazi crimes... article here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  15:06, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Focus on annexed territories 

message: Hi Molobo just picked this book up in the library yesterday, you may find it of interest.
Author is Phillip T. Rutherford
Title is Prelude to the Final Solution: The Nazi Program for Deporting Ethnic Poles, 1939-1941Hardcover, 
Publisher: Univ Pr of Kansas, 2007
The fate of Polish Jews under the German occupation has been well documented, but not as much is known about the wartime ordeal of non-Jewish Poles. Phillip Rutherford investigates Nazi policies of "ethnic cleansing" to reveal the striking anti-Polish nature of the crusade to Germanize newly occupied territory and to show...
This will suffice as a reliable source, but the article would need some redo work. Regards---Woogie10w (talk) 21:36, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reliable Academic Source Published in the USA 

message: Since one user continues to object Madajczyk as reliable source here is what The Institute of History of Present Time (research unit  of the CNRS, the French National Center for Scientific Research) has to say about Madajczyk:
"It is with great sadness that we have learned of the death of Professor Czeslaw Madaiczyk, Chairman of the Polish Committee for the History of World War I and II, who died on 15 February 2008.
Czeslaw Madajczyk was an eminent historian, whose scholarly work on 20th Century Polish and European History has been widely acknowledged and respected. His important studies on Nazi occupation of Europe after 1938, and in particular on Hitler’s rule of Poland have greatly enhanced our understanding of the often complicated and obscured processes of German occupation policies as well as of the differing experiences of ordinary peoples under Fascist dictatorship and oppression. These and some of his other books, notably on cultural life in Nazi occupied Europe, on the “Generalplan Ost” and other German war-time plans for Eastern Europe as well as on the Soviet massacre at Katyn, have become milestones of the historiography of the Second World War. He was a co-founder and for more than two decades also the first editor of the distinguished Polish quarterly “Dzieje Najnowsze” (Recent History).
Between 1971 and 1983 Professor Madajczyk led the Institute of History of the Polish Academy of Sciences. Besides he was Vice-President of the Polish Committee of Historical Sciences (1971-1985) and later became one of the Vice-Presidents of the International Committee for the History of the Second World War (1980–1995). In these capacities Czeslaw Madajczyk was an ardent supporter of international scholarly cooperation and exchanges, even at times when relations between historians on both sides of the iron curtain were still threatened or questioned by political conditions and developments.
The death of Czeslaw Madajczyk is a grave loss for the international community of World War II historians.
Gerhard Hirschfeld
President of the International Committee for the History of the Second World War"
I hope this settles once and for all if Madajczyk is acceptable and reliable source by modern standards.
--Molobo (talk) 18:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  About Madajczyk  

message: During the B-class review for WikiProject Poland, User:Piotrus determined that the article seems to him to meet the criteria for the B-class. Good job! — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 00:26, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  B class 

message: There was a mistake in the text, Madajczyk noted that there were only ) noted that 529 cases of friendly contacts between Germans and Poles  reported by Gestapo, not intimate contacts. I corrected the mistake.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:58, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Corrected mistake 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090815001010/http://www.kki.net.pl:80/~museum/rozdz2,6.htm to http://www.kki.net.pl/~museum/rozdz2,6.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The word district should be replaced, the GG was divided into Distrikts, so we have a district od districts.Xx236 (talk) 07:27, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  The rest of Nazi occupied [[Poland]] was renamed as the [[General Government]] district 

message: * Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany#Demographics says that at a census in 1939, only 18,400 Germans lived in East Prussia. That seems unlikely. Is that correct???? I thought that East Prussia was majority German until 1945. If it here means only the extra territory that the Nazi regime added to East Prussia, the test should say so. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:27, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Size of German population of East Prussia? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 17 external links on Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111018004836/http://www.igipz.pan.pl/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf to http://www.igipz.pan.pl/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111018004836/http://www.igipz.pan.pl/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf to http://www.igipz.pan.pl/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111018004836/http://www.igipz.pan.pl/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf to http://www.igipz.pan.pl/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111018004836/http://www.igipz.pan.pl/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf to http://www.igipz.pan.pl/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111018004836/http://www.igipz.pan.pl/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf to http://www.igipz.pan.pl/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello, I think there's a typo: Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany#Expulsion and genocide of Poles and Jews Heinemann and Łuczak ak as cited by Eberhardt detail the expulsions as follows ("ak"). Best regards, - Bédévore [knock knock] 22:08, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, DigitalChutney (talk) 10:21, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Typo? 

message: …move the article to other titles without consensus. Especially highly POV irredentist ones. Volunteer Marek  23:52, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: @Micga - Danziger? Could you please discuss such drastic moves firts? - Danziger? Could you please discuss such drastic moves firts? GizzyCatBella🍁 23:54, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: (@Volunteer Marek Looks like we started editing at the same time. Sorry about that.) GizzyCatBella🍁 23:56, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please don’t…