Talk:HAL AMCA

message: Chanakya, where did you get all those photos of MCA ? I also visit ADA's site sometimes, but I never saw those. The first image that is posted looks very similar to JSF in Front-view. The earliest MCA imagaes and one of the images you posted does not have a vertical tail-fin, I would suggest you post one of those in the place next to the introduction.
Thanks.IAF
those pictures were actually linked by drdo or ada i donot remember ,final design is yet to be selected ,but old design of tail less mca has been dropped Ajaymk2
:I feel it would be a nice idea to include the original speculative drawing of the MCA as well (the Tailless design), since this would give a good idea of the project's direction. Sniperz11 17:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: MCA Photos

message: This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 18:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: link: http://indianaerospace.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/meduim-combat-aircraft/
:--samar60 (talk) 1:38, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There's really not any new info there, it appears to be a blog, and it's over a year old. Not really usuable per WP policies on blogs. - BillCJ (talk) 00:39, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  MCA future role in the IAF 

message: The Air Force has asked ADA to develop the Aircraft to replace the Mirage-2000 and Jaguars in service. This will complement the Su-30 MKI's and MRCA's. By 2020, the IAF fighters are going to be FGFA, MCA, Su-30 MKI, MRCA and LCA.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 10:54, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This still doesn't explain why the sections you deleted were no longer relevant.  From a cursory glance, they provided context.  And, the wording in your change doesn't really make sense as far as dates.  Jauerbackdude?/dude. 20:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Frankly, this article needs some serious rework. The MCA concept originally started out as a larger, medium-weight development of the small, lightweight LCA. The MCA program in this effort languished and was never approved to go forward, so it has been re-envisioned as a 5th-generation development program. The article currently ignores the former and addresses only the latter. Also, I wouldn't hurry to conclude that the MCA and FGFA will go forward in parallel as separate programs (although HAL might very much like it to). It's extremely expensive to carry on two such 5th-Gen programs simultaneously. I would not be at all surprised to see the PAK-FA be Russia's and the MCA India's designs accomplished under FGFA. Askari Mark (Talk) 22:16, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Askari Mark, both are different. The MCA can be called as a advanced stealth variant of the LCA utilizing many technologies developed for the LCA. From the point of cost, India cannot afford to replace a large number of the fleet with the FGFA. The FGFA is the Indian Version of Russian PAK-FA. The MCA is developed to provide the numbers. MCA is called 5th gen because it is a stealth aircraft. From the cost point it's similar to the development of F-22 and F-35.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 05:17, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: All I can say is this article needs some rework with updated info and more realistic review of the aircraft with the motive it was created, and looking at the current situation, plausibilities should be listed as probables and direct quotes.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by AkshayGenius (talk • contribs) 21:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  MCA to be developed

message: Should the MCA have planes like the F-22, ATD-X, PAK-FA, J-XX and MANTA as comparable? The article states that the MCA is a strike aircraft. Strike aircraft are like the first variant of the Tornado, JH-7, and the stealth strike fighter currently is the F-35, though it's more multirole than only strike. Should the comparable aircraft list be changed to only F-35?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.50.156 (talk) 02:30, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe comparing the MCA to F-35 would be appropriate, since they are both stealth multirole fighters.TheCorruptedOne (talk) 12:52, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Comparable Aircraft

message: User:The Bushranger has actively and consistently thwarted attempts to remove JF-17 Fighter Aircraft, a 3.5 Generation aircraft from the list of comparable fighters. His argument was that "generation is not relevant" when it is clearly mentioned that "era" is a factor for consideration. The other considerations are "role" and "configuration". An effort to draw the similarities in configuration of JF-17 and AMCA is nothing short of preposterous. That exercise would be colossal waste of precious time. The only similarity between the two fighters is the fact that both are multirole combat aircrafts. Now since User: The Bushranger is relying on that as the sole consideration to include JF-17 in the list, I wonder what is stopping other editors from including JF-17 in the list of comparable aircrafts in the Chengdu J-20 article or better still in the JSF or PAK-FA articles. 
Could the good editor kindly explain the rationale behind his insistence on keeping JF-17 here ?
Devasuran (talk) 16:35, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  JF-17 Comparable aircraft? 

message: Hi, i am confused about the range. The article states the range to be around 3000 km which seems improbable considering that the Su-30 MKI has a range of 3500 km (acc. to WKP). The Google Knol link shows the range to be a more reasonable 1000 km. If there is no dispute, I will edit this. Mycrofth (talk) 23:40, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Range Of MCA 

message: http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/tamil_nadu/Advanced-Medium-Combat-Aircraft-by-2018/2014/01/07/article1987224.ece
please make the necessary changes  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.62.169.69 (talk) 15:44, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  First flight by 2018 

message: I am contributing on the HAL AMCA article since last two months since when the article was at 15,600 bytes. I have succeeded at contributing around 50,000 bytes and adding around 80 references, but I am consuared about two reference one at overview and second at the cockpit section, both reference are from Defence forume India, I am familiar with the Wikipedia policy of reference. I am trying to find replacement for the two reference, till then I ask other contributer and editor to find replacement for the two reference and please try to keep the reference and not to delete it till a suitable replacement is found.
1.39.46.14 (talk) 06:54, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note that a large proportion of the references now used in this article appear to be blogs or other Self-published sources - as such most of these will not pass Wikipedia's standards for reliable sources. The article really needs to be trimmed down to what can be supported by proper sources - i.e all the stuff that isn't sourced to reliable sources should be removed.Nigel Ish (talk) 09:58, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

text: Most of the claims are speculation and a lot of the article is trivia I dont think the expansion has actually added much of encyclopedic note. That said I agree with Nicky mathew that it needs to be better sourced. MilborneOne (talk) 10:12, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  References

message: The article is particularly confusing as it mixes the original AMCA concept design project choices with the design that came out of that project. It is particularly difficult to make sense of, an is  not helped by lots of trivia and outdated sources. A lot of the wording needs to be changed as it is still a proposed design and not a real aircraft yet (it still needs to be ordered by the government). Any suggestions how we can sort this out, is any of the recent edits actually salvagable or needed? MilborneOne (talk) 10:32, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: HI milborneone, one particular person or a group of persons are editing this page with anonymous ips which changes every 6 to 8 hours (normal I guess for shared ips) for last one month or so. I think all or most of those edits are either to promote amca project or HAL. eg- in engine section no mention about General Electric F414 improved variant which is what DRDO prefers now not Kaveri engine variant k9 (maybe for mark 2 or 3 amca but not for this current version ) .this news was widely reported in Indian media because prime minister of India and president of U.S personal to some extent is interested in the joint development of the variant engine of f414.so I believe this person or group of person might have some sort of conflict of interest or affiliated to some related entity hence left out many new decision or changes and added many which may not be true. Nicky mathew (talk) 11:38, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It may be that we need to consider going back to the stable version before the IP editing, it certainly has lots of duplication, trivia and woffle as well as the unreferenced stuff you have raised. MilborneOne (talk) 11:40, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  yes that's a solution but that will be like going back 1 or 2 months but this person or group will still edit this page if left unprotected or unchecked. yes I agree with going to a stable version idea :). Nicky mathew (talk) 11:53, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Confusing article

message: Hello I am the same person from the reference section and I propose a potential demerger between Hal amca and Amca programme as in the start part of development section it crates confusion, I purpose that a potential de merger between the above two parts will help to reduce confusion, as the previous design section should kept as it helps to understand the development of the programme but in different article of Amca programme totally separate from Hal Amca which would indeed help to reduce confusion between the article and help to grow in proper direction for both proposed different article, I would like your opinion on this proposed demarge guys.
1.39.10.180 (talk) 10:10, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Are they not the same thing? MilborneOne (talk) 16:33, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed demerger

message: Hello I am the same person from the reference section of amca talk page First flights section in the info box recently had been effected by edit war as the user Aryan Indian tried to put entry date around 2030 that looks like uncronstive, he is trying do editing in good faith any helping Amca article but need guidance and look like he is not fimilar with the wikipedia rule. It's better to leave the flight reference out of info box, but should be in other part of article with reference as it helps to understand programme development as Bilcat has already mentioned.
1.39.10.42 (talk) 03:48, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: First flights

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: I'd like to know the reason for reverting this edit. Aman.kumar.goel (talk) 16:46, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , the material was copy-pasted from nal.res.in. —Gazoth (talk) 16:49, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: And it is not really noteworthy for inclusion even if it was reliably sourced. MilborneOne (talk) 16:51, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Details of Cockpit 

message: Is this reference viable for adding the first flight of AMCA in the infobox as 2025 metioned in the given article:- 
https://eurasiantimes.com/tejas-mark-ii-to-replace-mirage-2000s-with-capability-to-deep-strike-into-enemy-territory/ Electrofying (talk) 08:58, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  First Flight Year 

message: Does anyone have information about its Internal weapons bay? Is this a fighter similar to South Korean KAI KF-X  fighter which airframe is stealther than other 4th generation fighters but does not carry weapons in internal bay like 5th generation fighters. Nafis Fuad Ayon (talk) 12:18, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Aircraft has internal weapons bay but external hardpoints too are available optionally if needed when stealth isn't important. In case of Korean KAI KF-X, hardpoints are necessary in combat configuration which increases the radar signature. So AMCA is more similar to J-31 or F-35 in capabilities and function. KF-X is more of a stealthier counterpart of HAL TEDBF. Info about weapons bay is already within the aircraft article anyway. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 12:38, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  About internal weapons bay. 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:53, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Not moved. No impediment to re-proposing should evidence that "Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft" is the common name be included in the proposal. (non-admin closure)  BilledMammal (talk) 13:38, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: HAL AMCA →  – Per common name Laterthanyouthink (talk) 08:38, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 15 September 2021 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: unrealistic values for multirole aircraft. Mailmax2018 (talk) 11:27, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Your personal opinion is not a reliable source.  The value comes from the source listed at the top of the template.  If you have a reliable source which contradicts the existing one, please provide it. - ZLEA T\C 16:33, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  service ceiling 

message: Please state that why you want this to be added here? Does it really need to be overstated with a separate section when the majority of the information that the articles discuss is already in the top paragraph? Let's begin with this. Echo1Charlie (talk) 13:28, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me inform you that I've gone through the articles. So you can skip quoting paragraphs, mention only reasons. It will be more helpful for us. Echo1Charlie (talk) 13:38, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

text: I believe such information should be left out of the paragraph because it is not the scope of this article to mention whether the Indian military industrial complex is mature enough to develop stealth air-combat technology and what should the Indian military do in its future. @Echo1Charlie >>> Extorc.talk 14:00, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Echo1Charlie (talk) 14:02, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Development concerns 

message: A 5th generation fighter aircraft will require a quantum leap in capability from where is India now to develop, produce and induct into service.
India’s AMCA Not A 5th-Gen Fighter Aircraft; Lacks 3 Defining Features To Be In The Same League As F-35, J-20"More significant than the rather difficult-to-swallow DRDO/HAL projected timeline is that the AMCA projected to be inducted by 2035 will not be a 5th-generation fighter. It will be a 4.5 gen fighter."
"AMCA Mk-1 will lack at least three defining 5th-generation fighter engines. Supercruise, Supermaneuverability, Sensor fusion. Additionally, AMCA Mk-1 will feature limited stealth. AMCA is inspired by the F-35, which has no rear aspect radio frequency and stealth but does feature a suppressed IR signature. The AMCA will feature no rear aspect stealth – neither RF nor IR. Using the 98 kN GE F414 engine instead of a 110 kN engine as planned when designing AMCA rules out supercruise; lacking thrust vectoring rules out supermaneuverability, and; large exhaust nozzles without IR suppression rule out rear-aspect stealth."
"DRDO is 'still grappling with developing capable RF, IR, and Optical sensors.' Sensor fusion will follow sensor development. It will be long before it can field Stage 3 and Stage 4 situational awareness. The CAS was likely recommending foreign collaboration for developing sensors and sensor fusion when advising prudence in November 2022."
INDIGENOUS FIFTH-GEN COMBAT AIRCRAFT
"As the AMCA is envisaged to be a fifth-generation platform, its design, development and manufacture will involve a quantum jump in technology and industrial capability, way beyond what is required for the LCA Tejas Mk II. Manufacture of the AMCA will require expertise in handling not only aerospace grade alloys with aluminium, steel, titanium, but more importantly, composites. In fact, the entire external surface will have to be manufactured using carbon fibre composites. The platform will require an engine that will be capable of delivering much higher thrust than any of the engines on the different versions of the LCA Tejas or the Su-30 MKI. The power plant will need to have capability of thrust vectoring and will have to be integrated with the airframe in a manner so as not to compromise the stealth characteristics of the platform. The AMCA will require the latest and most advanced radar, a complete range of modern avionics and potent weapon systems including in the nuclear regime as also the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile."
"Given the capabilities envisaged for the new platform, it is clearly beyond the capability that the Indian aerospace industry can boast of at present. While the move to break away from the confines of the public sector and involve the budding Indian aerospace industry in the private sector for the AMCA project, is indeed a progressive one and laudable, it is highly unlikely that the private sector will be able fill the huge gap in technology and capability in relation to the AMCA project that currently afflicts the Indian aerospace industry in the public sector. It goes without saying that for the AMCA project to be successful, a collaboration with a reputed original equipment manufacturer is an inescapable necessity. Without this, the AMCA may remain a distant dream for the IAF with the Indian aerospace industry engaged in a fruitless pursuit."
RXFire1 (talk) 12:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Problems India has developing a 5th gen aircraft

message: 14. "More significant than the rather difficult-to-swallow DRDO/HAL projected timeline is that the AMCA projected to be inducted by 2035 will not be a 5th-generation fighter. It will be a 4.5 gen fighter." - Opinion. India in fact states that AMCA a will be a 5th generation fighter with sixth generation technologies  
15. "AMCA Mk-1 will lack at least three defining 5th-generation fighter - engines, supercruise,  Supermaneuverability" - 'AMCA is yet to take off from the design board, and this author is already guessing it lack 5th generation features like engines, supercruise,  Supermaneuverability' 
16. " DRDO is still grappling with developing capable RF, IR, and Optical sensors" - 'DRDO already have developed advanced sensors for aerospace applications like Uttam AESA. A full list of DRDO's RF sensors can be found here' . DRDO already developed IR as well as electro optical sensors as well  
17. "Manufacture of the AMCA will require expertise in handling not only aerospace grade alloys with aluminium, steel, titanium, but more importantly, composites." - India already have that technology. In fact 'India is already using carbon fibre composite in the manufacturing of Tejas. "The composite materials constitute 45% of the airframe by weight and 90% by surface area".'
18. "In fact, the entire external surface will have to be manufactured using carbon fibre composites" - India already did that on Tejas, so we can expect it on all fighters that will follow Tejas, viz, Tejas MK1A, Tejas MK2, TEDBF, AMCA etc.
19. "The 'platform will require an engine that will be capable of delivering much higher thrust' than any of the engines on the different versions of the LCA Tejas or the Su-30 MKI." - 'India's current plan is to use F414 on AMCA MK1, later on they'll be replaced with a much powerful engine developed in-house or via JV' 
20. "The power plant will need to have capability of thrust vectoring and will have to be integrated with the airframe in a manner so as not to compromise the stealth characteristics of the platform. " - Only F-22 have that, ' neither F-35, nor Su-57, Su-75, J-20, J31 or KAAN have engines integrated with the airframe in a manner so as not to compromise the stealth. Aren't they 5th generation fighters? Is it really a problem India has in developing a 5th generation fighter?''
21. " The AMCA will require the latest and most advanced radar, a complete range of modern avionics and potent weapon systems including in the nuclear regime as also the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile.
Given the capabilities envisaged for the new platform, it is clearly beyond the capability that the Indian aerospace industry" - ' India already has already developed AESA radar  latest digital fly by wire FCS  and is already developing IRST sensors for future applications  a working model of the said system is already made, can be seen here ' [ https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTmImPW6loMBP2B-9xWD10BHAMgDGf1i2iZBw&usqp=CAU]
'So India's problems (in developing a 5th generation fighter) you're trying to project are simply not problems at all' Echo1Charlie (talk) 05:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply to Problems India has developing a 5th generation fighter

message: - I would like to present another angle on this issue. Even if what RXFire is saying is true, If we concede on that just for the purpose of exploring what im saying, still according to WP:FUTURE, this article is in no position to comment on whether HAL can come up with a 5th gen fighter. Moreover comments on what IAF should do instead of working on this project is ridiculous to say the least because that would be a violation of WP:NOTOPINION.I dont think RXFire's argument for addition of the material into this page holds any merit. >>> Extorc.talk 10:50, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diversion 

message: 14."More significant than the rather difficult-to-swallow DRDO/HAL projected timeline is that the AMCA projected to be inducted by 2035 will not be a 5th-generation fighter. It will be a 4.5 gen fighter." - Opinion. India in fact states that AMCA a will be a 5th generation fighter with sixth generation technologies [32] [33]
15."AMCA Mk-1 will lack at least three defining 5th-generation fighter - engines, supercruise, Supermaneuverability" - 'AMCA is yet to take off from the design board, and this author is already guessing it lack 5th generation features like engines, supercruise, Supermaneuverability'
Take it up with the author -  Vijainder K Thakur is a retired IAF Jaguar pilot. His bio states that he is also an author, software architect, entrepreneur, and military analyst. He states that the the early AMCA Mk-1, version will be a 4.5 gen fighter.
With India's experience with the Tejas, I think he might be right. The AMCA might be end up  like the Su-57 or enter service too late - being outclassed by 6th generation aircraft.    
With the DRDO's & HAL's track record regarding major projects, he might be right. First aircraft rollout of Tejas MkII postponed due to delays in funding and focus on self-reliance Meanwhile India's squadron & combat aircraft strength will decline with the retirement of the Mirage 2000, Jaguar & Mig-29.
16. " DRDO is still grappling with developing capable RF, IR, and Optical sensors" - 'DRDO already have developed advanced sensors for aerospace applications like Uttam AESA. A full list of DRDO's RF sensors can be found here' . DRDO already developed IR as well as electro optical sensors as well. 
CAG slams DRDO for delays, declaring projects successful despite failure to meet key goals
""The CAG report, which was placed in the Parliament Thursday, highlighted that despite the fact that MM projects have a very high outcome certainty due to ready availability of underlying technology, there were considerable delays in the initiation and sanction of such projects by the DRDO." “In 119 out of 178 projects, the original time schedules could not be adhered to. In 49 cases, the additional time was in fact more than 100 per cent of the original timeframe,” the CAG report noted."''
"It added the delays ranged from 16 to 500 per cent and that an extension was taken multiple times. ....The report pointed out that DRDO had taken up 15 projects costing ₹516.61 crore to accomplish the unachieved objectives of similar earlier closed projects declared as successful by it. CAG has also noted the “inefficiencies in the planning process” by DRDO as well as raised issues of inadequate monitoring of the MM projects by the premier research organisation of the country. The inefficiencies in overall project management have resulted in several instances of cost overruns, over-assessment of anticipated benefits of projects, and delay in submission of closure reports, it said. CAG also brought out issues such as delay in productionisation of successful projects, which it said defeated the very purpose of taking up such projects."
The Uttam radar hasn't yet been fitted on the Su-30MKI or the Tejas. The plan to create a larger scalable design to be used on the AMCA also hasn't been developed. 5th generation aircraft will require more advanced sensors. 
It's an electro-optical infrared system for surveillance from airborne, land and naval platforms. This is not new technology - AH-64 Apache, HAL Prachand, P-8 MX-20 EO/IR, MQ-9 Reaper.
The F-35 uses a Electro-Optical Targeting System first of it's kind.
Distributed Aperture system
Interesting video shows unique capabilities of the F-35 Lightning II Electro-Optical Targeting System
"The low-drag, stealthy EOTS is integrated into the F-35 Lightning II’s fuselage with a durable sapphire window and is linked to the aircraft’s integrated central computer through a high-speed fiber-optic interface. The Distributed Aperture System (DAS) Window Panel consists of six low-observable, infrared transparent windows for Electro-Optical (EO) DAS sensors on the F-35. Each shipset of windows enables the EODAS sensor to provide threat detection and 360-degree situational awareness to the pilot."
F-35 Electro-Optical Targeting System Enters Low-Rate Production
F-35's Electro Optical Targeting System (EOTS) combines FLIR and IRST in a single sapphire housing under the nose.
The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: A Technical Analysis Page 16 - The F-35 has a conformal IR/Synthetic vision S&T.
"Current official graphics and statements indicate that the AMCA is expected to house most sensors conformally to maximise stealth. What cannot be discerned from these graphics is an optical or synthetic Infra-Red Track and Search (IRTS) system. While the ADA does indicate the plane will have an IRST, the renders do not show the legacy spherical IRST bulge that is highly radar reflective. The fact remains that no country outside the United States seems to have developed a conformal  IR/Synthetic vision S&T and there will be significant developmental hurdles here. Given this single vendor situation for conformal IRSTs it seems highly unlikely that the AMCA will be cleared for technology transfers given that the F-35 would seem to compete in roughly the same space as the AMCA."
"The AMCA also does not appear to have a conformal Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS). This means it will have limited ground strike capabilities – restricted to GPS-guided weapons only. This means both laser-guided weapons and optically guided weapons required for pin-point precision as well as the engagement of moving targets would not be available to the AMCA. In effect this would mean that it duplicates the role of the F-22, which is overwhelmingly an air superiority fighter with at best a secondary ground strike capability. Unlike the single vendor situation of the conformal IRST - the Russian MiG-35 seems to have a system similar to F-35's EOTS – the OLS-K (though once again its spherical shape means it is radar reflective). The OLS-K, like the F-35's EOTS, is constructed of artificial leuco-sapphire. Various attempts at tracking down local producers of leuco-sapphires for this paper yielded no results and possibly points to a local production deficit that will have to be overcome. Given the highly limited nature of the market, though, it might be impossible to create economically viable manufacturing facilities for leuco-sapphires in India."
17. "Manufacture of the AMCA will require expertise in handling not only aerospace grade alloys with aluminium, steel, titanium, but more importantly, composites." - India already have that technology. In fact 'India is already using carbon fibre composite in the manufacturing of Tejas. "The composite materials constitute 45% of the airframe by weight and 90% by surface area".
Composites and alloys for 4th Gen fighters like the Tejas are different. There are different types/grades of alloys. 5th Gen fighter aircraft are completely different ball game. 
New Metal Alloys Are Shaking up Aerospace
"The number and types of lightweight metals available for building military and aerospace components are expanding. Not only are aircraft structures and components making use of lightweight aluminum alloys, but also alloys of titanium, and other metals previously considered too exotic like beryllium. These materials help vehicles meet tougher fuel consumption standards by shedding hundreds of pounds."
"More aircraft structures and components are being made of lightweight aluminum alloys, as well as alloys of titanium and other metals previously considered too exotic, difficult to use, or expensive like beryllium. These materials help aircraft such as this Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II jet fighter meet tougher fuel consumption standards by shedding hundreds of pounds."
"Electro Optical Targeting System (EOTS) on Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Lightning II jet fighter is the first sensor combining forward-looking infrared and infrared searchand-track functions for pilots’ situational awareness and air-to-air/air-to-surface targeting from a safe distance. The EOTS’s azimuth gimbal housing components are made of a beryllium-aluminum alloy called Beralcast that is three times stiffer and 22% lighter than aluminum."
Lockheed Martin reveals F-35 to feature nanocomposite structures
"Lockheed Martin has revealed the F-35 Lightning II will be the first mass-produced aircraft to integrate structural nanocomposites in non-load bearing airframe components. A thermoset epoxy reinforced by carbon nanotubes will replace carbon fibre as the material used to produce F-35 wingtip fairings beginning with low rate initial production (LRIP)-4 aircraft, said Travis Earles, a manager for corporate nanotechnology initiatives. Meanwhile, the same carbon nanotube reinforced polymer (CNRP) material is being considered to replace about 100 components made with other composites or metals throughout the F-35's airframe, he said. The shift to CNRP as an airframe material has been anticipated ever since carbon nanotubes were discovered in 1991. It is widely considered one of the strongest materials ever invented - several times stronger than carbon fibre reinforced plastic (CFRP), yet lighter by about 25-30%."
This Image Of A Naval Strike Missile Launch Shows A Key Tenet Of Stealth Design
"This type of arrangement, and far more advanced ones, are used in low-observable aircraft like the F-117, B-2, F-22, F-35, and J-20. For instance, the frontal area of a trapezoidal air inlet on a fighter jet may actually be a large composite structure that is invisible to certain radar frequencies, while concealing complex radar defeating structures and material underneath. A long and smooth wing leading edge may actually conceal highly intricate geometric structures that work as radar baffles and are buried below a radar translucent composite outer skin and a layer of radar-absorbing filler."
"The F-22's outer shell conceals advanced low observable technologies and material science that lies beneath."
"Sometimes people superficially conclude there are 'radar traps' in certain areas of stealth aircraft just by looking at them. But what they may not realize is that even though a certain airframe component looks solid and opaque, it isn't to radar and structures are concealed below them that deflect and attenuate radar returns. This ability to build almost two different airframes in one—one that is an aerodynamic and stealthy shaped outer shell of sorts, and one that sits below the skin with areas that provide massive decreases in radar reflectivity where it's needed most, is truly fascinating. The fact that this is able to happen at all also creates the possibility that low-observable design teams and aerodynamic design teams can get to a point where both are satisfied while working together on a high-performance stealth aircraft."
"The big takeaway here is that the blended relationship between these substructures and outer skins are usually not apparent when viewing stealthy aircraft visually. Their smooth skin can actually make stealthy aircraft look eerily simple in appearance, but an entirely different world lies beneath, and especially in key areas. This reality makes stealth aircraft even more of a technological accomplishment than they already appear to be, especially considering some of these designs are meant to be battered ruthlessly and heated and cooled for thousands of hours as they careen through the air under high G forces and rip across the sky at supersonic speeds." 
18. "In fact, the entire external surface will have to be manufactured using carbon fibre composites" - India already did that on Tejas, so we can expect it on all fighters that will follow Tejas, viz, Tejas MK1A, Tejas MK2, TEDBF, AMCA etc.
First of all the Tejas Mk2, TEDBF & AMCA hasn't entered production/service. There are different types of composites not all composites are the same, 5th generation aircraft will require more advanced carbon fibre & material science.
How a Tougher Skin Could Change the Shape of Stealth Aircraft 
"Stealth fighters and bombers are among the most expensive aircraft in the world, and they rely on a radar-absorbent polymer skin to avoid detection. But that polymer is so fragile that these high-end aircraft have to be designed in ways that protect the skin – even if that means hurting their performance in the air. A new material is poised to change that. By creating a tougher skin that also has more desirable stealth characteristics, researchers believe the new material will allow designers to rethink the stealth jet. “It comes down to this: if we get the support we need to scale this up, aircraft manufacturers will be able to fundamentally redesign stealth aircraft,” says Chengying “Cheryl” Xu, whose research team at NC State has developed the tougher radar-absorbent material. “The material we’ve engineered is not only more radar absorbent, it will also allow the next generation of stealth aircraft to be faster, more maneuverable and able to travel further.”
"To address this array of impressive challenges, Xu and her collaborators have created a ceramic material that has an equally impressive array of attributes. For one thing, lab testing finds that the ceramic is more radar absorbent than the existing polymers, being able to absorb 90% or more of the energy from radar. It is, in effect, much harder for radar to “see.” In addition, the material is water-resistant and harder than sand. In other words, it can better withstand harsh conditions. What’s more, the ceramic material retains its radar-absorbent characteristics at temperatures as high as 1,800 C (and as cold as -100 C)."
19. "The 'platform will require an engine that will be capable of delivering much higher thrust' than any of the engines on the different versions of the LCA Tejas or the Su-30 MKI." - 'India's current plan is to use F414 on AMCA MK1, later on they'll be replaced with a much powerful engine developed in-house or via JV' [37]
That's the author's point - Mk1 will enter service first it'll be equipped with the F414 engine. He's stating that the MK1 will not be a fully be 5th generation fighter. Given that the Kaveri has been in development since the 80s. It's going to cost a lot of money and time to develop an adequate jet engine to power the Mk2.
20. "The power plant will need to have capability of thrust vectoring and will have to be integrated with the airframe in a manner so as not to compromise the stealth characteristics of the platform. " - Only F-22 have that, ' neither F-35, nor Su-57, Su-75, J-20, J31 or KAAN have engines integrated with the airframe in a manner so as not to compromise the stealth. Aren't they 5th generation fighters? Is it really a problem India has in developing a 5th generation fighter?
I'm not sure about the Su-57, Su-75 or the Kaan, the Chinese jets might have it - the F-35 is fitted with a Low Observable Axisymmetric Nozzle (LOAN) making it as stealthy as the F-22.
 LOA Low Observable Axisymmetric Nozzle F-35 Air Vehicle Technology Overview
"Before the development of the F-35 low observable axisymmetric nozzle (LOAN), signature demands typically drove nozzles to fixed, structurally integrated affairs (e.g., F-117). They had to have very high aspect ratio designs (e.g., F-117) or highly capable but heavy two-dimensional systems (e.g., F-22), as illustrated in Image 1. Departing from what was then the state of the art, industry and CRAD efforts developed multiple nozzle configurations to create a LOAN for the F-35. The F135 engine with a LOAN balanced the requirements of LO and efficient aeromechanical performance. This resulted in a lightweight configuration with reduced radar cross-section."
"During this period the notion that axisymmetric nozzles were not amenable to LO (or even thrust vectoring) was being challenged. A new generation of LO nozzles emerged that was characterized by shaping features to minimize radar reflections. Namely, they used a serrated trailing edge, serrated interface with the airframe, and interleaved external seals to complement the external flaps. They retained tight control of gaps and seals and had specialized high temperature coatings on internal and external surfaces. In the years leading up to the X-35, various LOAN configurations were developed, ground tested, and flight tested on F-16s."
Turbine Shields And Topcoats
"For Lockheed's F-22 and F-35, the need for afterburning engines, supersonic flight and fighter agility, as well as the desire for less maintenance, would require some new approaches. The U.S. stealth fighters use similar IR suppression techniques for internal engine parts, tail structures and airframe coatings. They diverge most noticeably in nozzle design. The horizontal tails of both aircraft extend well beyond the nozzles, restricting the view of the exhausts and plume core in the azimuthal plane from the side and into the rear quadrant. The engines of both also have stealthy augmenters. Aft of the low-pressure turbine are thick, curved vanes that, when looking up the tailpipe, block any direct view of the hot, rotating turbine components. Fuel injectors are integrated into these vanes, replacing the conventional afterburner spray bars and flame holders. The vanes mask the turbine and contain minute holes that introduce cooler air."'
"In designing the nozzle of the F135 engine that powers the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, Pratt & Whitney aimed to rival the F-22's wedge nozzles in signature while beating it on maintenance costs. The nozzle flaps incorporate minute holes to supply cooling air, like those on the F119, and overlap to create a sawtooth trailing edge, which introduces shed vortices to the exhaust and shrinks the plume. Their interior and exterior surfaces are likely composed of low-emissivity, radar-absorbent ceramics."
Wedges and Tail Feathers
"the F135 nozzle likely suppresses IR signature through multiple methods. The trailing-edge chevrons create shed vortices, shortening the plume, while their steeper axial angle likely directs cooler ambient air into the exhaust flowpath. The inner surfaces of both sets of flaps are white and incorporate minute holes similar to those on the F119, which might supply cooling air. Some reports suggest the presence of ejectors between the tail feathers and chevrons to provide even more cooling air. The tiles and inner flap surfaces are likely composed of low emissivity, RAM composites. The trailing edge of the central fuselage also terminates in small chevrons, possibly further increasing airflow vorticity."
For Those Questioning F-35 All Aspect Stealth
"Notice the sawtooth features that ring the exhaust nozzle, and can also be seen at the nozzle/fuselage junction? That is an RCS reduction feature! Similar use of the sawtooth setup can also be seen on the F-117, at the canopy junction, and the landing gear doors. These sawtooth notches that ring the exhaust nozzle consolidate the exhaust into the ‘spike’. These systems, in conjunction with built in measures and coatings, not only reduces rear aspect RCS, but also minimize the F-35’s IR exhaust signature. Its a two for one deal."
21. "The AMCA will require the latest and most advanced radar, a complete range of modern avionics and potent weapon systems including in the nuclear regime as also the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile. Given the capabilities envisaged for the new platform, it is clearly beyond the capability that the Indian aerospace industry" - India already has already developed AESA radar [38] latest digital fly by wire FCS [39] and is already developing IRST sensors for future applications [40] a working model of the said system is already made, can be seen here   
"So India's problems (in developing a 5th generation fighter) you're trying to project are simply not problems at all"
IRST has been around since 1963, modern IRSTs since the 80s and fly by wire technology has been around since 1979, when the F-16 entered service. These are not new technologies they were developed for the Tejas - an aircraft that was suppose to enter service in the late 90/early 2000s, additionally an upscaled AESA radar for the AMCA hasn't been developed yet & by the time the AMCA enters service it might have become obsolete. The development of a 5th generation fighter will require much more advanced materials/alloys, avionics, engines etc. which at present is way beyond India's capabilities. It's going to cost a lot of money to develop and build the AMCA, India also has to spend money on the Army & Navy. HAL also has it work cut out for it - Tejas Mk2, HFT-42, TEDBF & the AMCA. The AMCA most likely won't enter service/production by the expected time frame and by the time it does other countries would have already fielded 6th generation fighter aircraft.
The Bittersweet Dilemma Of India’s AMCA 5th Generation Fighter
“let’s keep it real: India can’t consider AMCA anything more than a dream now. The troubled development of the Tejas should be a reminder that the Indian aerospace industry is simply not ready for a domestic fifth generation aircraft without a significant foreign help. It might be ready in some decades, but most probably not in the foreseeable future. One might wonder whether the Indian Air Force needs a 5th gen. aircraft at all, considered that it still operates a large fleet of 3rd generation aircraft it still needs to replace.”
"The AMCA appears to be complete madness. Jumping from an unsuccessful (relatively) technologically pedestrian project like Tejas to a world class stealthy tactical fighter seems an unlikely route to success. Additionally, a first flight in 2025 (if achieved) plus ten or twenty years of development to get it operational sees it reaching squadrons in the 2035-45 period. At best, you have an F-35 twenty years too late (or mini F-22 thirty years too late)."
RXFire1 (talk) 11:49, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Problems India has developing a 5th generation fighter