Talk:Caduceus

message: There is also good reason to believe that the origin of the caduceus could be from the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament to Christians).  In Numbers 21:4-9, Moses brings a curse of snakes on the Israelites.  He removes the curse by placing a bronze serpent on a staff, which the victim of a snake bite can touch or just look at and be healed. (( Indeed the Staff with a serpent was very symbolic of Yeshua the Messiah, and cleansing from impurities. This was adopted by pagan culture all the way to central Europe. The mythological representation is in order to parallel Hebrew Scripture in the First Covenant(Bible).  
Submitted by Birney Dibble, M.D.
:Yes, there seems to be evidence that the Aaron's rod and Moses' rod had a "rebirth" in Greek and Roman mythologies. I would like to see more written about that as well. --Kvasir 07:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that story would be in reference to the Rod of Asclepius, a different but similar symbol which is mentioned in this article. ~cailan (talk) 17:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The confusion between the two, which is a modern one, is also noted. Far from being the "origin", the Hebrew tradition represents one local variant of widespread Ancient Near Eastern myth and cult, which also affected archaic Greek myth.--Wetman (talk) 11:11, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Actually God established it. He is not mythological. Which means fiction or fantasy. Ldcrowder (talk) 17:18, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bible Origins 

message: Quote from article: "The number eight is important to the practicioners of judicial astrology." I clicked the link looking for details on that, but the article doesn't mention the figure 8 at all. If it really is important, perhaps someone could/should add the relevant information there? Retodon8 12:27, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Should it be mentioned that it is the oposite of the orobourous or infinity symbol? Caduceus symbolises fixed points, beginging and end where as orobourous is infinity they are only used as paraels in some anime but still. --82.45.120.125 02:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I got rid of that and the surrounding material. First of all, it's geometrically wrong: the caduceus snakes cross several times, but there is only one crossing in the figure-eight or the analemma. Second, it is dangerous to so boldly draw a connection between the caduceus and the connotations of those other symbols without historical evidence. Melchoir 19:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The figure 8? 

message: This article has now been restructured to put the confusion between the caduceus and the rod of Asceplius beyond doubt.  The use of the caduceus has no basis in medicine and using it in this way is simply incorrect (if widespread, especially in the US).  For more info, please read the relevant sections in both articles!  Owain.davies 16:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Restructure 

message: I looked on the Iris(Mythology) page and saw that she apparently is also associated with the caduceus. If this is true, than it should probably be noted in this article, if not, than I'll edit it out of her page. I've never been able to find much info on Iris, but maybe someone else will have better luck.
---24.192.224.242 16:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we'd need a citation in order to support putting this on here.  If i get a moment, i'll hunt round to see if google finds anything. Owain.davies 18:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if it helps, but the Iris article itself uses Image:Winged_goddess_Cdm_Paris_392.jpg which clearly shows a goddess holding a kerykeion wand and a vase.  The description of the picture seems unsure whether it is Iris or Nike however.  --AntonChanning (talk) 14:40, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I also noticed that it is sometimes seems difficult to distinguish Nike from Iris. Some identify Nike on a particular piece of pottery, and yet the female figure has wings and a caduceus. How do you tell one from another? See this and this. —Kanodin (talk to me / slap me) 05:40, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iris  

message: The 'See Also' section of this article provides a link to Enki with the claim that Enki was 'a Sumerian god whose symbol was 2 serpents on an eagle-winged stick, which was already an ancient symbol before Enki's cult arose.'  However, visiting the Enki page reveals no mention of the caduceus or any kind of staff or stick like it.  In fact, a perusal in the Talk:Enki page reveals that all mention of the caduceus has been removed from that page due to lack of citation.  --AntonChanning (talk) 14:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  See Also: Enki 

message: "A 1992 survey of American health organisations found that 62% of professional associations used the rod of Asclepius, whereas in commercial organisations, 76% used the caduceus."
Can someone clarify the difference here between professional and commercial organizations?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.24.18.96 (talk) 18:53, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Professional vs. Commercial Organizations 

message: I have heard a rumor that the caduceus was originally mistaken for the proper medical symbol after it was used on early ambulances, because of its connection with speed.  Has anyone else heard this?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.69.190.75 (talk) 01:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use in Medicine   

message: I have attempted to add a few details to this article, as well as to clean up the continuity of style. I have removed the subsection on meaning because it was entirely without citation and was a mishmash of speculative and syncretistic "occult" interpretation. I have no problems if a section on the meaning of the symbol is replaced provided that it contains citations from reliable sources and does not zig-zag across the entire esoteric spectrum. --Picatrix (talk) 15:19, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Edit 

message: The STAFF OF HERMES Unicode character (U+269A) listed in the article as the "lexicographical form" shows up in my browser as a big old question mark. This character is clearly not universally supported. Can/should this be replaced with an image instead, perhaps in a table with the other 2 symbols?   Sjb0926 (talk) 19:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  UNICODE 

message: This got removed for irrelevance:
* Another possible source of the image of the healing snake predates the Greek mythology by centuries. It dates to 1500 BC to a Biblical event in the days of Moses in Numbers 21:4-9. In that story the Israelites had been attacked and bitten by a plague of poisonous snakes. Moses was instructed by God to make a Brass snake on a rod and to lift it up into the air. Those who came and looked upon the snake were healed. Hence, the snake on a rod for the symbol of healing perhaps adopted by the Greeks centuries later.
I'm not clear why.  Incidentally, I've previously heard this passage quoted in conjunction with the more ascensional John 3:14 as another caduceus/kundalini tie-in.
K2709 (talk) 08:06, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi there, if you read the article, and supporting references, you'll see that the caduceus is not a healing symbol, and this is a recent (i.e. 19th/20th century) confusion.  For that reason, as the symbol is not linked to medicine, it seems unlikely to have a healing history!  I hope that helps, and there is information on this possible route at the Rod of Asclepius article, which is the correct one in this instance.  I hope that helps.  OwainDavies (about)(talk) edited at 08:31, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like the biblical theory about Moses' serpent has made its way into the Caduceus article again. I'm removing it on this basis: it is already discussed in the Rod of Asclepius article, which is what it relates to, and hence where it belongs. There is no need for one theory of the origin of the Rod of Asclepius to appear two times, and in any case, to state it again, it belongs in the article on the Rod of Asclepius. --Picatrix (talk) 14:39, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moses' serpent on a stick 

message: Excellent addition!!  I've moved the prose around a bit to make it better I think -and added the formal "no connection" which I think needs to be there to maintain NPOV since, as far as I know, this is just a coincidence in terms of symbology (especially since actual images of the chakras etc. from historical texts look nothing like the caduceus!).  But wonderful addition to make the article more complete.--Cpt ricard (talk) 03:14, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's consider this then, if we may: how about an esoteric interpretations section? I'm not suggesting this as the title, but we might discuss the various esoteric interpretations (where sufficient citation is available) that come from outside the historical context of the symbol itself (i.e. syncretism). In order to justify the section, however, for my part I'd be interested in seeing another citable view on the esoteric significance beyond the business of it being a kundalini symbol. It's not that I'm against syncretic interpretations, it's that the bar is positioned higher for the inclusion of such content in an encyclopedia. For example, I'd love to mention yoga and the caduceus if there were a shred of period evidence attesting to the association. Like if you found a mention of Apollonius of Tyana discussing the symbolism of the caduceus when he was studying among the gymnosophists. The problem is, I'm aware of no such mention... Hence the academic weight behind a section just on putative kundalini correspondences just isn't there; on the other hand, a sentence mentioning this theory my be appropriate in a general section on syncretic and esoteric interpretations. --Picatrix (talk) 13:58, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly, although I expect it would mostly end up revolving around other cultures' takes on the same phenomenology anyway.  Egypt's Wadjet, whom I note has been described as "the cultural ancestress of the caduceus", also happens to be an Eastern goddess who rears up as one of two snakes that manifest through exactly the same spot on the forehead of Tutankhamun for example.  K2709 (talk) 21:40, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yogic Interpretation 

message: The Customs Services of the German Democratic Republic (german: Zollverwaltung der DDR) had used the Caduceus - how do you say in english? - as a "Symbol" or "Embleme"? (Sorry, I am not a native english speaker), see :de:Zollverwaltung der DDR and :de:Datei:Verdienstmedaillen der Zollverwaltung der DDR DZM.jpg. May I ask you to put this piece of Information (with the picture) into this article? I'm afraid, my English is not good enough for that. Thanks. --Lkl ★ 20:33, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello? --Lkl ★ 15:48, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: apologies for not replying earlier.  I'm not sure about this one - i'm not convinced about adding an organisation with presumably no longer exists, and i'm not sure the picture adds much without it.  Any other editors have a thought? OwainDavies (about)(talk) edited at 19:23, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hermes/Mercury/commerce/borders: yes, it seems like an example that adds to the article, so I've worked it in, with relevant text.--Wetman (talk) 20:27, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks a lot! :) --Lkl ★ 12:13, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Customs Service of GDR 

message: For some reason, it is difficult to see and click on the categories at the bottom of the page. Is there a problem with the formatting? Eagle4000 (talk) 16:36, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Renders fine for me.  What browser are you using? OwainDavies (about)(talk) edited at 17:51, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  formatting 

message: Hi,
I'm one of the editors who contributes regularly to this article. I return to Wikipedia after a short break only to see the article has been hacked up and much of the cited content replaced with... with I don't know what. Exactly what is the rationale for the deletions and changes? --Picatrix (talk) 21:39, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exactly what is going on? 

message: I found it interesting that the symbol was related to Apollo. It made me remember that there are many mythologies linking serpents as adversarial to the moon/sun; such as eclipses are caused by a giant snake swallowing it like an egg, and Apollo, a sun/moon deity is renouned for slaying a large serpent as is the egyptian god ra always battling apep in the night. I am wondering if the symbol could have been a snake impaled on a spear or it's skin wrapped around a staff to dry like a trophy. PS. i added a link to the amphisbaena page. i think it may solve the mystery of the 2 snakes as the earlier staff seems to depict it and it also is regarded as having healing properties and is from greek myth. but as i am no scholar i'll leave ther research to others. Bloodkith (talk) 14:22, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  snakes and the moon. 

message: The recently reverted edit will be a reference to Tiresias, who flipped gender setting a staff between two mating snakes (in order to represent the yin/yang dynamics of kundalini I dare say).  That article thinks Le mythe de Tirésias: essai d'analyse structurale is a valid source that explicitly links in the caduceus, so interested parties could WP:PROVEIT that way if so inclined. K2709 (talk) 16:02, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Tiresias is one of the possible origins, although I think the other is more likely, especially as Tiresias killed the female snake with his staff, rather than entwining them around it.  That doesn't make it true that they are mating for the purposes of the lede, as there is no definitive origin. OwainDavies (about)(talk) edited at 19:24, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are the snakes mating? 

message: An editor recently added the following prose to the article:
"The oldest example of the winged disc symbol is found on Sumarian carvings,
	 
Sumer (from Akkadian ; Sumerian  , approximately "land of the civilized kings" or "native land" means "native, local", in some contexts is "noble"(ĝir NATIVE (7x: Old Babylonian) from The Pennsylvania Sumerian Dictionary). Literally, "land of the native (local, noble) lords". Stiebing (1994) has "Land of the Lords of Brightness" (William Stiebing, Ancient Near Eastern History and Culture). Postgate (1994) takes en as substituting eme "language", translating "land of the Sumerian tongue" (. Postgate believes it likely that eme, 'tongue', became en, 'lord', through consonantal assimilation.)) was an ancient civilization and historical region in southern Mesopotamia, modern Iraq, during the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age, dating 4000 to 4500 B.C. The winged disk is found in numerous carvings and is closely tied to the Sumerian creation myths. Ancient Greek archaeologists believe the Sumerians had a profound influence on nearly all aspects of Greek Civilization. "
Now, this seems detailed, but doesn't assert relevance to this article.  It talks of a 'winged disc', which isn't the same thing.  The hyperlinked article isn't very enlightening (and seems to be self published in either case).  If there is something in this, then it would be good to include, but at the moment I can't reconcile it to being reputable enough to stay in.  Further information would be welcomed if anyone has it?
OwainDavies (about)(talk) edited at 12:44, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sumerians 

message: This was added to the article:
The ancient eastern deity Mithra was depicted as being born out of a rock and sometimes that iconography was accompanied by Mithra depicted with a lion's head and entwined by two snakes. The cult of Mithra is older than the cult of Hermes and the subsequent Mercurius that were also, but later, associated with the cadecus. In Sanskrit 'Mitra' means 'friend' and in Avestan 'Mitra' means 'oath/covenant//contract'. Thus the cadecus as a symbol of the herald can be derived back to Avestan times, 18th century BCE.
	
Another interesting aspect is that the Hurrians and the Mitanni, attested in Ugarit tablets from the 14th century BCE, speaks of a primordial sea-serpent of chaos which had to be vanquished (cr: Illyanka). The ethymology of the Mitanni can be derived back to 'Mithra-anni' meaning 'covenant of heavens'. Also in Assyrian tablets, BCE 709, king Midas of Phrygia is called 'Mi-it-a' which also seems suspiciously cognate with Mithra. 
This seems interesting, but needs citations. Anyone have any thoughts? OwainDavies (about)(talk) edited at 09:55, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition re Mithra 

message: Should we mention the Caduceus (or something that looks exactly like it) is the symbol of the Organization of Forensic Astrologers?  24.51.217.118 (talk) 05:22, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't seem to be a notable organisation. OwainDavies (about)(talk) edited at 10:30, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Forensic Astrology Org. 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This article states the following things:
A. "The Homeric hymn to Hermes relates how Hermes offered his lyre fashioned from a tortoise shell as compensation for the cattle he stole from his half brother Apollo. Apollo in return gave Hermes the caduceus as a gesture of friendship. The association with the serpent thus connects Hermes to Apollo, as later the serpent was associated with Asclepius, the "son of Apollo"."
B. "One Greek myth of origin of the caduceus is part of the story of Tiresias, who found two snakes copulating and killed the female with his staff. Tiresias was immediately turned into a woman, and so remained until he was able to repeat the act with the male snake seven years later. This staff later came into the possession of the god Hermes, along with its transformative powers."
C. "Another myth suggests that Hermes (or Mercury) saw two serpents entwined in mortal combat. Separating them with his wand he brought about peace between them, and as a result the wand with two serpents came to be seen as a sign of peace."
I have a few questions:
1. The story of Hermes, Apollo's cattle and the lyre is told in at least 2 Greek mythology sources: the Homeric Hymn to Hermes (IV) (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3atext%3a1999.01.0138%3ahymn%3d4) and Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 3.10.2) (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollod.+3.10.2&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022). I do not see a reference to the caduceus and the fact it was given by Apollo to Hermes. Where is that piece of information?
2. What is the original source in Greek mythology that tells the story of Tiresias and the snakes?
3. What is the original source in Greek mythology that tells the story of Hermes/Mercury and the snakes?
4. If Apollo gave the caduceus to Hermes (first story) how is it possible that Hermes gained possession of it (second story)? I can only assume the two stories are completely separated.
ICE77 (talk) 07:16, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek mythology sources and questions 

message: I'm intrigued to know why you added  (especially as my system has no supporting font to reveal its mysteries). How is it relevant? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:52, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a caduceus without wings. The original (now obsolete) symbol for 10 Hygiea was the rod of Asclepius, often with a star added to indicate it's an asteroid. There's been some astrological interest more recently, and the symbol I've seen has two snakes/worms, though fewer loops (like w the rod). So this appears to be another instance of the Usonian confusion of the rod with the caduceus. It was added to Unicode a few years ago. Since there are two worms/snakes, I thought it should be mentioned here as a graphic variant. — kwami (talk) 19:48, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok,as it's a "looks like", I have moved it down to the "different from" section of the infobox. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 21:31, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Astrological symbol for 10 Hygiea