Talk:Neanderthal extinction

message: It states "Jordan, in his work Neanderthal, points out that without some interbreeding, certain features on some "modern" skulls of Eastern European Cro-Magnon heritage are hard to explain" Who is Jordan (not mentioned anywhere else in this article.) No ref also --Lerikson (talk) 23:22, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This will be Paul Jordan (no Wikipedia article as yet), as for example here. Note that the book is already 11+ years behind the cutting edge. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.165 (talk) 02:52, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who's "Jordan" mentioned in hybridization section 

message: I've tagged this as it needs a citation to a source which makes the claim but also links it to climate change and extinction. Dougweller (talk) 07:09, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requiring more energy 

message: Definitely not an expert, but I remember watching a pop science programme by Dr. Alice Roberts a couple of years ago called The Incredible Human Journey on the BBC. Unless I've completely imagined it, the series talked about how though the Neanderthals were stronger, stockier and just as intelligent, if not more so given their technological superiority, they failed to socially 'network' in the way homo sapiens did. Similar artifacts found over great distances suggested that human beings traded further and wider and were able to use their group advantage over the Neanderthals who stayed more isolated. Did I completely imagine this segment of the show? Are there any theories like this? Saint91 (talk) 19:55, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Social interaction hypothesis 

message: This statement is included regarding possible causes of pandemic extinction of Neanderthals caused by interaction with modern humans:
"A disease that should be mentioned is gonorrhea. It arose about 200,000 years ago. Along with differences in social and sexual behavior, this sexually transmitted infection could be the cause of the extinction."
I find this statement extremely dubious at best and in need of much clarification, as well as evidence to support this conjecture.  First, why should gonorrhea be mentioned?  Is there any evidence leading one to believe this disease in particular may have afflicted Neanderthals as an epidemic?  Second, please cite a source confirming that gonorrhea originated 200,000 years ago.  Third, knowledge of social and sexual behavior of Neanderthals is extremely limited, certainly not to the point where epidemiological data could be collected or analyzed.  Fourth, gonorrhea is not recognized to be fatal to modern humans and no evidence exists that it would be fatal to Neanderthals.  If no one can provide any supporting evidence for these claims within two weeks, I am removing this extremely dubious claim on grounds that it is pure speculation. 63.115.56.33 (talk) 14:05, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neanderthal gonorrhea extinction? 

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thread_title: File:Neanderthal child.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: From the numbers of sheep and goat bones that turn up in human deposits these had obviously been domesticated at an early date, which gives a much more reliable food supply than hunting. The human female left in the safer environment of the caves and with a more reliable food supply would live longer and produce more children. Even better when agricuture arrived.
The division of labour theory makes sense. With the greater numbers of humans living together it was possible to identify and make better use of those who had natural skills. Anybody who spends his time stone knapping can produce good quality stone tools for almost any purpose and could trade surplus tools for say, goat or sheep joints. Such a social system allows some people to simply get on with what they are best at doing.
None of the information given seems to mention that the Neandertals ever got away from being locked into an erratic hunting mode from their very beginning. The Neadertals must have seen the herding life style of the humans, so is there any evidence that they ever copied this and may have given themselves a possibly more secure future?AT Kunene (talk) 13:26, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Food 

message: I'm not an expert in biology but I believe the term "competitive advantage" may be slightly misleading. Competitive advantage is a term that usually refers to a modified theory of Ricardian comparitive advantage and implies an economic efficiency, specifically with connotations regarding commercial trade. I believe "natural advantage" or "evolutionary advantage" may convey what the article references better.
--Rotellam1 (talk) 18:42, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Competitive Advantage" 

message: In the Interbreeding section is the following statement, which is problematic:
"Although modern humans share some nuclear DNA with the extinct Neanderthals, the two species do not share any mitochondrial DNA,[36] which in primates is always maternally transmitted. This observation has prompted the hypothesis that whereas female humans interbreeding with male Neanderthals were able to generate fertile offspring, the progeny of female Neanderthals who mated with male modern humans were either rare, absent or sterile (in line with Haldane's rule).[37]"
Our summary of Haldane's rule relates to a gender bias in the potential sterility of the progeny (e.g. it would predict that were if one of the genders of the progeny were to be sterile, it would likely be the heterozygote gender, in humans the sons).  At least as I am reading it, this would be the case independent of the gender of the parents.  Looking at ref. 37, it is actually referring to the progeny of the children, so our summary of its result is  inaccurate.  It also suggests other possibilities, that progeny might have been raised in a Neanderthal context and not bred back into the human line.  I don't think our summary is an accurate representation of the Hypothesis paper, and I am not sure that the paper itself adequately describes the phenomenon.  Further, there is a problem with the weight given the whole paragraph.  It starts with a decade-old observation (a lifetime with regard to the interbreeding genetics) that ignores the absence of Y-chromosome markers.  Then there follows this Hypothesis paper.  I am not very familiar with this e-journal, but a look at description of the editorial board gives no indication that they have the expertise to represent peer reviewers.  Should we really be given speculation appearing in this atypical venue the kind of play we are giving it? Agricolae (talk) 15:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Haldane and interbreeding 

message: I read that Neandertaler had more muscles than humans It is well-documented that humans with more muscles are more vulnerable during famine. E.g. in the battle of Stalingrad German soldiers with more muscles died first.  The added value of more muscles is limited for humans because they rely more on tools and corporation. So could this be an explanation for extinction? I have no reliable sources, but I do not understand that this rather obvious hypothesis is not mentioned here. Andries (talk) 09:21, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: More muscles means more vulnerable for famine

message: They wouldn't have been any match against the swifter tribes with projectile weapons. The war parties from tribes that could strike from a distance and run, could have picked off their defenses one by one, and then raided the resources.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bruce.1 (talk • contribs) 12:27, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extinction by violence & Anatomical differences 

message: I recall hearing in the 1990s about a theory that modern humans climbed hills and mountains to observe the movement of herds and anticipated where herds would be in the next few days, while Neanderthals did not do this, and this was enough of an advantage for modern humans to cause the extinction of Neanderthals. If there is any source for this theory, it should be mentioned in the article. —Anomalocaris (talk) 02:50, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not know of any source, and I do not see how there could be any evidence for such a theory. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:17, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anticipate herd movements hypothesis 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: New research shows that Neanderthals were indeed capable of producing art: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/22/science/neanderthals-cave-paintings-europe.html 
It is not an art form they copied from Homo sapiens as earlier theories suggested. The research shows that cave art found in Spain is at least 64,000 years old and colourful shells that would have been worn as ornaments are between 115,000 and 120,000 years old. So the cave paintings were made 24,000 years before the Homo sapiens arrived in Europe from Africa and the shells 75,000-80,000 years before the Homo sapiens arrived in Europe.
Therefore, the claim in the article that the Neanderthals were incapable of making symbolic artefacts has been debunked. This also raises the question of the Neanderthals intelligence. Since they were capable of more abstract thinking than they have been given credit for, it is no longer safe to say that the Homo sapiens outwitted them and they wiped out the Neanderthals with sophisticated weaponry and warfare tactics.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivianvos (talk • contribs) 09:24, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neanderthals made symbolic artefacts 

message: https://www.theverge.com/2015/4/23/8479243/human-neanderthal-protoaurignacian-teeth-study  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dewildewouter (talk • contribs) 23:31, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extinction by Last Ice Age 41.000 years ago. Complete switch of Earth Pole's and climate change 

message: I have viewed and seen sources saying  that a few isolated Neanderthal groups may have still existed as recently as 27,000 years ago, the article indicates that Neanderthals became extinct some 40 or 39 thousand years ago.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.179.145.46 (talk) 21:41, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Recent dates are now considered disproved following improvements in radiocarbon dating. Dudley Miles (talk) 22:15, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of Neanderthal extinction  

message: "Interbreeding can only account for a certain degree of Neanderthal population decrease. A homogeneous absorption of an entire species is a rather unrealistic idea. This would also be counter to strict versions of the Recent African Origin, since it would imply that at least part of the genome of Europeans would descend from Neanderthals, whose ancestors left Africa at least 350,000 years ago. " Doesn't seem to be supported by any citations or evidence, possible bias?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.211.185.214 (talk) 07:47, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interbreeding Objectivity in Question 

message: Could you please update the page to contain information on this study, included like so in 2020 in science:
A researcher reports that in a supercomputer model simulation a realistic extinction of the Neanderthal population can only be simulated when Homo sapiens is considerably more effective in exploiting scarce glacial food resources as compared to Neanderthals, with interbreeding and abrupt climate change only being minor contributors to their extinction.
I think it should be mentioned here shortly somewhere in section "Possible cause of extinction". If you see a problem with the item's content at or notability for 2020 in science please edit it.
Thank you.
--Prototyperspective (talk) 14:05, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: A theory based on a computer simulation needs comments from experts in the field before we add it to Wkipedia. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:12, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please update with: "Quantifying the potential causes of Neanderthal extinction: Abrupt climate change versus competition and interbreeding" 

message: I've explained this here on Quora. The links to the scientific papers is given there. The crucial part of the argument is not simply that interbreeding happened per the recent evidence, but also that Neanderthals were far more physiologically adapted to their lifestyle compared to Homo Sapiens. Hybrids born without birth defects would then do reasonably well in human societies, but hybrids in Neanderthal societies would not do well as they would lack the physical strength needed to stick to the Neanderthal lifestyle. Baby hybrids may have been more susceptible to the cold than Neanderthal babies, so child mortality of hybrids born in Neanderthal societies would likely have been higher. And because Neanderthals were less numerous than Homo Sapiens, the fraction of hybrids would have been larger in Neanderthal communities compared to human communities. 
It's then likely that interbreeding would have led to a collapse of the Neanderthal lifestyle and culture, with the hybrids who lived in Neanderthal communities ending up joining human communities. Smitra0 (talk) 09:17, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Discussions on Quora are not considered reliable sources for Wikipedia. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:12, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Quora is not a peer reviewed source, but I give links to the literature in the linked Quora post. Smitra0 (talk) 05:02, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Assimilation should be a premier theory. It is know that early interbreeding with homo sapiens changed out both the mitochondrial DNA as well the Y-chromosome in Neanderthals to the ones from homo sapiens. That tells me that hybrids of both sexes were able to procreate and that well. The dominance of modern human can be explained by the difference in numbers. A big population meeting a small population. Assimilation could have occured over several thousand of years, as Neanderthals were living thousands of years beside modern humans.Jochum (talk) 21:13, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interbreeding should be the favored hypothesis in the light of new evidence 

message: Difference in Technology between Neanderthals and contemporaneous "Cro-Magnon" is alluded to, but not described. It seems to me that some detail in this area is warranted. (Or linked to, if it is documented elsewhere.) Drsruli (talk) 07:47, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Technology 

message: "The catastrophic impact of Eurasian viruses on Native American populations in the historical past offers us a sense of how modern humans may have affected hominin predecessor groups in Eurasia 40,000 years ago. Human and Neanderthal genomes and disease or parasite adaptations may give insight on this..."
How can you compare early human hunter-gatherers (the kind Neanderthals would've encountered) health with mid 15th century modern Europeans? The circumstances are completely different. European society at the time of first contact was rife with disease b/c they lived in crowded communities with NO sanitation or knowledge of microbes and epidemics amongst themselves were common. Isolated bands of hunter-gatherers don't live in teeming cities or crowded villages and therefore are less likely to be the source of major epidemics. They live in small groups. In addition, "native populations" of the Americas did not completely vanish despite being exposed to infectious diseases they had not encountered. 47.138.92.41 (talk) 10:35, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Some native populations most certainly did completely vanish after being exposed to European diseases.  Additionally, it wasn't just isolated bands of hunter gatherers being exposed to these diseases, it was major cities in South America that were living in equally crowded conditions.  The point of the comparison is that novel pathogens can greatly disrupt populations.  I don't see how modern humans potentially spreading novel pathogens to small homo n. groups with no immunity COULDN'T greatly reduce their populations. LarsTheFirst (talk) 04:10, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it is very unlikely but it is not our views which count. It is one of theh theories put forward by reliable sources and so it has to be included. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:16, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  really?