Talk:Ruddigore

message: A recent editor deleted this passage:
:As with most Gilbert and Sullivan works, Ruddigore is not as straightforward as it first appears. It uses the form of a comedy – melodrama – to question what the meaning of Good and Evil. The Good characters are all good in rather unpleasant ways or for bad reasons, whereas the Bad Baronet is evil for relatively noble reasons. For instance he uses the results of his evil deeds to support charitable institutions. The plot summary should be read with these thoughts in mind.
There are some sensible ideas in this paragraph, but awkwardly expressed. I assume the deleting editor was concerned that it wasn't backed up by any citable source. It was simply some prior contributor's personal view of what Ruddigore is about. Marc Shepherd 18:54, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, in fact that was (and is) my view of the opera. I contributed it before the current No Original Research policy was in place. It is reasonable to remove it since I doubt that any citations can be found for it. Nevertheless I believe that there is some truth in it, however awkwardly expressed. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:14, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Looks fine to me. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Deleted Passage

message: A recent edit settled on this footnote:
:This recitative was originally followed by the song, "For thirty-five years I've been sober and wary".  Gilbert and Sullivan were dissatisfied with this and wrote a new patter song to follow the recit: "Henceforth all the crimes that I find in the Times".  The latter is published in more of the extant scores, and is probably more often heard, although recent recordings and productions have tended to bring back the original version.  Many productions cut the recit. and song completely.  See  Versions.
To a considerable extent, this just duplicates, or states in a different way, what is already stated in the Versions section. If the Versions section is inadequate, please update that. I have to agree with Adam that, on the whole, the recitative and song (either version of it) is seldom performed. Until the Oxford edition came out, the song was not even in the Chappell vocal score, and I don't believe it came with the standard D'Oyly Carte rental parts. So it's safe to say that, in the UK at least, the song was hardly ever performed until recent times. Marc Shepherd 15:42, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's worth clarifying that "Away, remorse!" is, in fact, two different songs. However, a better way of doing it occurs to me! Adam Cuerden 12:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I apologise, I didn't mean to be personal, I just presumed that you were lucky enough to be able to hear it regularly, whereas in the four or five times I got to see Ruddigore, a couple of them in Buxton, I haven't gotten to yet, and have only ever heard of one that included it: the Edinburgh G&S one that was on a few months before I moved here, which used "For 35 years". As well, the G&S archive mentions it not being used a few times: http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/ruddigore/discussion/cuts.html - Arthur Robinson on the song's cutting.  http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/ruddigore/libretto.pdf Footnote 28: not used in D'Oyly Carte after Toye revisions, and, in addition, a few years ago I had to buy a Schimer score to get a copy of the music, since it wasn't in the Chappell. This does not give the impression of a commonly used number Adam Cuerden 11:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've revised the article to state that "Henceforth all the crimes" is omitted on all four of the professional recordings of Ruddigore published to date. That is a verifiable fact. There is very little doubt in my mind that a majority of amateur productions do omit the song, and I am surprised that Ssilvers believes otherwise. However, the article now rests on what can easily be verified as true. Marc Shepherd 13:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: That footnote needed to go on a diet. I've shortened it, and tried to incorporate all of the relevant material in the main text. Marc Shepherd 18:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fine with "often". As for whilst... Well... I'll try, but there is a very good reason why I use whilst: because I was when younger for some reason, never able to pronounce while. But whilst, if pronunced with short i, I can easily. Hence, once I moved to Britain, I gleefully dropped while. So "while" isn't really in my vocabulary, even if I'm fully capable of pronuncing it now. Adam Cuerden 20:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit-war on "Away, remorse!"

message: Have added in significant parts of the Act I finale, in line with procedure hit upon for H.M.S. Pinafore (people were having trouble finding some of the more famous songs from it in the list of songs, so it was agreed to list  all significant parts. Not quite so important with Ruddigore, which only has the one big ensemble piece not broken into smaller numbers, but I'm trying to do it for consistancy over all 14 operas. Adam Cuerden 12:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Shouldn't it start off with the words, "Finale Act I..."?  --Ssilvers 18:45, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good point! Fixed! By the way, I don't have my scores to hand - what's the time signatures of the Act I finale "Oh, happy the lily" and the Act II finale one? I know they're different, but can't think off hand how. (It'd be useful when discussing the Toye revision to the Act II finale Adam Cuerden 10:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll try to remember to check this when I get home. --Ssilvers 16:52, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Song list

message: The revisions section is, in my opinion, somewhat clunky and inefficient, since instead of, for instance, dealing with the changes from Ruddygore to Ruddigore, it instead lists everything that would be changed from the first night, then GOES BACK AND LISTS IT ALL AGAIN, saying what changed. It alright if I poke about with it to make it flow better?  The Toye version probably needs its own section, but we only need two sections, not three bulleted lists. Adam Cuerden 13:02, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it would be better to combine the first two lists.  --Ssilvers 00:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just be careful. There are three distinct versions. In combining them, you could very well end up confusing all but those who are already familiar with the background. If anything, a fourth list is needed (to describe pre-production variants). Marc Shepherd 19:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I've managed it. I've left the Toye variants in their own section, but since the First night list and revisions during the initial run were essentially the same material divided into two, I combined them. Adam Cuerden 18:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I made some copy edits and said that the Margaret, Desp., Robin scene before No. 23 was also shortened.  Or was that done at another time?  Marc, take a look and see if you agree with what we did.  --Ssilvers 20:04, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I think there are some mistakes, but rather than guess at it, I'll wait till I have my references at hand. Marc Shepherd 20:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope that any mistakes were there, but are just more noticable now. I was trying to be very careful about it. Oh, well! It needed to be done sooner or later, and at least we're all here to catch any errors I may have introduced. Adam Cuerden 20:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Revisions

message: There were rather a number of incorrect commas in this article, which I have removed. Here's why I think they're wrong:
The recitative, "Away, remorse!" (No. 21a), led into the patter song "For thirty-five years I've been sober and wary."
It is perfectly correct to list several terms to describe the same thing divided by commas, or to add a clarification set off by commas. For instance, "I, Adam Cuerden, am adding a clarification of my name to this sentence."  However, the parentheses are themselves substituting for commas here:
The recitative, "Away, remorse!", No. 21a, led into the patter song "For thirty-five years I've been sober and wary."
E.g "I, Adam Cuerden, the creator of this talk section, am adding further clarifications to this sentence."
However, it looks better with the parentheses as this is a fairly minor clarification. But the fact that we have a parenthetical minor addition  changes the rhythm of the phrase - when reading it aloud, one would pause as such:
The recitative "Away, remorse" (pause) No. 21a (pause) led into the patter song "For thirty-five years I've been sober and wary.
Hence, it's better to consider things like "The recitative" and "The patter song" as adjectival phrases, hence not needing commas, when adding the numbers in parentheses, in my opinion. (There were also a few commas that were just wrong, I fear, but this is the more controversial revision)
Adam Cuerden 14:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Commas

message: Hitherto Roderic has been listed as a bass-baritone. I contend that this is misleading. His lowest notes are two brief low A-flats in "There grew a little flower", and he doesn't tend strongly towards even this not-particularly-low lower end of his range. Other characters who have similarly low notes, such as Ko-Ko in The Mikado who has two low Gs, are called baritones. I can only suppose that the idea that he's a bass-baritone comes from his first being played by Richard Temple and later by the likes of Donald Adams, but Temple also created Strephon in Iolanthe, usually (including on Wikipedia) deemed a baritone, and played Giuseppe in The Gondoliers, quite definitely a baritone. In any case, the decider should be the character's range, not who has played him. Ou tis 23:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have cast this show many times.  Roderic must be a vocally commanding figure, like the stone guest in Don Giovanni.  He is often played by a bass, but usually a bass-baritone.  A lighter baritone does not have the vocal weight for the role.  Note that Roderic's high note is only a D, and the tessitura of the role is low. -- Ssilvers 02:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah! but, my good sir, you mustn't tell me what you've done how often — it's not evidence. With all respect, what you have given me is only your point of view as to what Roderic should sound like. Our only Wikipedian evidence is the character's range in the score. Roderic, as you say, doesn't have any very high notes, but neither does he have any very low ones, and those Ds are more frequent than those low A-flats. Ou tis 22:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, on reflection you are right, I think I'll say, to argue in this kind of way. Happy editing! Ou tis 21:12, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roderic vocal range 

message: I altered the existing text which stated that Despard had become baronet on the "death" of his older brother, twenty years previously.  This is not borne out by the text.  Robin says that he left "at the prospect" of inheriting the baronetcy, indicating that it had not yet happened.  In fact, Robin continues to say that Despard "succeeded to the title."  Roderic later states that he died "ten years ago" (presumably just after the painting was done, as it has "been painted ten years.").  This accords with Hannah's statement that Roderic had died "ten years since."  I don't think Richard went to sea until after Roderic's death, as he is fully acquainted with Robin's situation even though he went to sea "ten long years" previously.  Busy times in Rederring, ten years ago.--Wehwalt 21:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL!  Margaret's entire entrance scene had been left out of the summary, and Old Adam had not been introduced.  I added something, but I haven't sat with this synopsis.  Feel free to see if anything else is missing (without making it much longer, since I think it's already pretty long).  Best regards, -- Ssilvers 22:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe a little time as I am about to leave on a lengthy tour, but I'll do what I can.  This article needs a little work on the reasons for the changes and whatnot, and when I have the leisure, I'll put in some quotes and refs.--Wehwalt 13:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Sorry it took so long, but I've mined the Allen book for the first night reaction.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:05, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  You should check the NY Times archives, it is now free and online.  I looked at the actual review, and the review of the dress rehearsal (which is very interesting, I'm sure G&S didn't know the guy was a reporter and so he couldn't take notes and comes out with mistakes like calling Despard "Jasper" (not an uncommon name for bad guys in melodrama) and refers to "Rose Maybird".)  You might want to help me in cleaning up the references there, it is not my strongest point.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:59, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Succession

message: :I do not think it is a notable change to the show that Roderic may have come from somewhere other than the picture frame at some point in a Gilbert-authorized production.  This change has not stuck.  Did Gilbert even change the stage directions?  If you really think it's of any consequence, I suggest that a footnote would be better, with a citation.  Best regards, -- Ssilvers 22:54, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah.  I thought you were saying exactly the opposite.  I have tried to clarify the article text.  See if I am correctly describing what you say here.  -- Ssilvers 23:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Roderic's entrance

message: Shouldn't Mad Margaret's number be related to the genre it parodies? --Wetman 03:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a link in the article.  Is that what you were suggesting?  Best regards, -- Ssilvers 03:33, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[mad scene]]

message: The last paragraph of the Background section
The number "My eyes are fully open" (with some changed lyrics) is used in Papp's production of The Pirates of Penzance. The tune of the song is also used as "The Speed Test" in the 2002 musical Thoroughly Modern Millie.
doesn't seem like background material at all, since it happened much later.  I suggest moving it to a new section "Cultural impact" after the current Adaptations section, which is how H.M.S._Pinafore handles comparable .  (The_Pirates_of_Penzance does the same, but with "Cultural impact" before, not after, Adaptations, while The_Mikado puts cultural impact after, but calls it "The Mikado in popular culture".  Seems like there's no standard.) -- StevenDoerfler (talk) 07:13, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, if we had a good "cultural impact" section, like Pinafore does, it would go there.  The problem with "cultural impact" sections is that they tend to become lists of WP:trivia.  Believe me, the HMS Pinafore "cultural impact" section was a bear to research and write and caused numerous disagreements over the past year.  This article, Ruddigore, is less well-developed than some of our G&S articles, and it is certainly not on my list to expand any time soon.  I don't see that there's a problem with this information where it is, unless you want to research and write a really good "cultural impact" section.  If you have the urge to improve the article, though, what it really needs is expansion with more research about the background, critical reception, themes and satire, analysis of the music, etc.  Once all this is done, then I think this factoid would naturally find a niche somewhere.  But I think that worrying now about where this goes is not productive.  Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:06, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I would tend to agree with Ssilvers.  The suggested info is certainly trivial.  If you can show actual influence on later works, rather than just a borrowing, then go for it.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:12, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add Cultural impact section 

message: First off, it's obvious I'm going to have to ty and improve the images for this - Leslie Baily shows a tiny version of a wonderful 1887 Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News scene, and some sketches from the Feb 5 1887 eedition.  We already use a tiny version of the Illustrated London News' illustration. If we get those in large size, and maybe the colour lead image, if possible, I think that it'd pull Ruddigore nearer the strong coverage we have for our other FAs.
Baily p. 289 quotes a diary entry of Sullivan's that may be useful, but which lacks a date [commas added to Baily's commentary, for clarity - he has a very unusual writing style, which is quite difficult enough, methinks, on its own]:
He also comments on the incongruity of Sullivan composing it at the same time as The Golden Legend (cantata) (same page) - but I'd like to discuss that with a better source, if available.
Quoted letter from Gilbert to Sullivan (again undated!):
Also a lot of good quotes for the Golden Legend article, but let that pass for now. 
Baily p. 293:  uniforms of 20 britih regiments used (by Bucks & Blades, presumably)  - inspected for accuracy by Sir Arthur Herbert, Deputy Quartermaster of the British Army.
Same: "One little problem was that of making Sullivan's baton visible when the stage was blacked-out for the Ancestors' reincarnation.  Phosphorescent paint proving unsuccessful, a glass tube baton containing a platinum wire which glowed a dull red was devised" - Baily's source for this information given as "The Siemens Magazine" of 1927; I don't imagine we'll track that down, unless you run into that large library near you, S. 
Brilliant quote from Durward Lely's mmemoirs (Baily p. 293-4). Evidently, he commented about a hornpipe after Richard's entrance song, was asked if he could dance one,  he was sent to a dance master, it seems he could, Sullivan wrote a hornpipe. Evidently some of the touring companys' tenors hated him for that. Interesting musical analysis of the hornpipe. 
Baily 294-6 Some useful quotes from press criticism, etc. Useful! Will type these up later. Poke me if I don't.
B. 296: Figaro incident. We have this in better sources. Lytton taking over for the incapacitated Grossmith, wins over audiences. - Useful if checked. "Kensington Gore" joke presented as a serious suggestion?! Illustration from something called "The Queen" - never heard of that newspaper, doubt any access to it available. 297. Gilbert's pun about "Ruddy complexion / bloody cheek".
p. 298: Bond & Barrington perform "I once was a very abandoned person" for Prince of Wales.
And that's it for the main section on Ruddigore. 
Baily p. 450: Bombing of London severely damaged Ruddigore sets & costumes, not performed again until 1948. 
Baily p. 23: Praises Toye's massacre of Ruddigore. I mean, changes. [Do you mean 423? SS]
Baily p. 436 - Old Ruddigore overture "inadequate"
Baily 434: Merest mention of Ruddigore returning to the stage in 1920. 
As can be seen, Baily is going to be a much better source of quotes than for any real discussion based on his versions of events. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 00:37, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notes on Leslie Baily: The Gilbert & Sullivan Book. 

message: An episode of Spitting Image in season 5 portrayed Labour leader Neil Kinnock singing new lyrics to the tune, supported by members of his shadow cabinet."Neil Kinnock in Spitting Image - Series 5", YouTube, uploated 26 March 2009, accessed 16 January 2012 I'll add this info to the article called Cultural Influence of Gilbert and Sullivan.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Matter Patter song

message: Does this burlesque of the burlesque deserve a mention on the page? Simon Moss had a production a year or two ago in Buxton, and published a libretto, and a couple of books mention this play in passing. It might be of some value in the intro to the opera.Slfarrell (talk) 22:13, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, one or two sentences would be a good idea, along the lines of:  "A Victorian burlesque of the opera, titled Ruddy George, written by x and x, premiered at the X Theatre in 1887 and ran for x performances. Starring x, its parody focused on [aspects of the Riddigore that it parodied].[citations]"    We should not mention the recent revival, which was an amateur revival.  BTW, I disagree that Ruddigore is a burlesque.  It satirises some elements of Victorian Melodrama.  The reason that Punch called it a burlesque was because F. C. Burnand, the editor of Punch, took every opportunity to try to trivialize Gilbert's work.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:02, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds simple enough. I'll get round to it. What section would be the best for this addition? Slfarrell (talk) 18:40, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: How about adaptations?  Or could rename it "Works based on Ruddigore", if you don't feel it's an "adaptation"....  -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:00, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I dropped it in 'adaptations'. I don't have enough info to say much about it, and I thought if it has its own section, it will detract from the article of the opera. The ins and outs of the story and its parodies of G&S would require an explanation, and it's really not worth that much trouble. Slfarrell (talk) 21:41, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, looks good, but I added info about what year it premiered, and in what theatre.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:43, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ruddy George 

message: I removed the image of the long contemporary review, but I kept the highlighted quote from it. A balanced sample of the contemporary reviews should be summarized in a reception section, but they should not be set forth in full or added as image files.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:05, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Reception section

message: "Robin's Act I patter song "My boy, you may take it from me" (No. 7) has a shortened introduction, and repeats with Richard were deleted."  This is inaccurate:  in the original version, the introduction is repeated before each verse.  In the revised version, it occurs (in full) only at the beginning and is thereafter omitted.  The last repeat with Richard is in fact included and ends the song. Kostaki mou (talk) 20:41, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, agreed. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:18, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor correction to ''Versions'' section

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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replies: text: Congratulations! -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:40, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
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