Talk:Hellenization

message: Hellenization and Hellenistic Culture are very different ideas and should be discussed in different articles.
===Merge with Wiktionary?===
As of right now, this page is nothing more than a definition, and it should be merged with Wiktionary. Does anyone have any objections?  xxpor (  Talk |  Contribs ) 17:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Definately not, there is plenty of information on Hellenization out there. - FrancisTyers 18:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: As of right now, this page is nothing more than a definition, and it should be merged with Wiktionary. Does anyone have any objections?  xxpor (  Talk |  Contribs ) 17:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Definately not, there is plenty of information on Hellenization out there. - FrancisTyers 18:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge with Wiktionary?

message: The origins of the Vlachs and Arvanites are irrelevant in here. The thing is that those peoples had distinct languages and cultures and they adopted/are adopting the Greek language and culture. bogdan 14:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First, their culture is not distinct from the greek (in general) in an ethnic base, but in a regional one. Secondly, when they started adapting the Greek language? go as further back in history as u wish, but i assure u that u will always see them as bilingual. only assumptions can be made for the time that they supposendly started using greek along with aromanian and arvanitic. maybe a new article Re-Hellenization would be necessary. --Hectorian 16:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Aromanians are a distinct culture, although there were cultural exchanges with the Greeks due to their location as enclaves within areas with Greek populations. But let me remind you that the Aromanians (with the same culture and speaking the same language) live in non-Greek areas, including Albania, Rep. of Macedonia, Bulgaria and a few other countries in the region.  bogdan 19:53, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't u just say it?: they also live in Romania and have a culture distinct from the Romanians. What u forgot to mention is that noone knows for sure if they are natives in those countries (they aren't in Romania, since they immigrated in the '20s), if they immigrated from the south or north, east or west (depending on the country mentioned. Apropos, why the Aromanians in Albania also claim to be Greek (they are also considered greeks by the greeks and since they are orthodox, they have a greek as their spiritual leader... hmmm... quite of a surprise!). they aromanian culture is not distinct from the greek, but part of the greek (one example of this is the dances in a cyrcle... typical greek from antiquity....) --Hectorian 20:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, they live in Romania, too and they do have a culture distinct from the Romanians.
They do have a language, which is closer to Romanian than Modern Greek is to Ancient Greek.
*Aromanian: Tată a nostru care eşti în tseru
*Romanian: Tatăl nostru care eşti în ceruri
*Greek, ancient: Pater hemon ho en tois ouranois
*Greek, dimotiki: Patera mas, pou eisai stous ouranous
Within this language, they have their own folklore: songs, poetry, stories and legends, which is an Aromanian culture. By Hellenization (and losing their language), all their Aromanian-language culture will be lost. bogdan 20:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, the modern one would be more accurate as: Patera mas, autos stous ouranous (which could also correspond to the ancient: Pater hemon, outos en tois ouranois). Your ancient one literally translated means our father, the one in heaven, whereas your modern one translates our father, who art in heaven. You can't compare clauses meaning different things.  --Tēlex 20:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Bogdan, the example u used is a wrong one. The pray is only in ancient greek, and this is what we exclusively use until today. there was never a 'translation' in demotiki. Quite surprising (once more...) the Greek Aromanians (i am one, so i know better) have always used the pray in ancient greek... It is oxymoron that in order to defend their 'nativeness' in Transylvania towards the Magyars, the Romanians claim that they have not immigratted from the south, cause the do not have greek liturgical terms, and so, they inhabited Transylvania much earlier than the Hungarians... But it seems that it is a 'skeleton in their closet' the fact that the aromanians in greece have always used greek liturgical terms, cause it means that they are natives in the region:) Regards --Hectorian 20:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and so the question of 'Re-Hellinization' returns... --Hectorian 20:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

text:  I don't see your point. The core vocabulary (about 50 words, including church, baptism, priest, grave, Easter, angel, pagan, sin, devil, altary, etc.) relating to Christianity and/or religion in both Romanian and Aromanian has Latin origins and it had undergone the full phonetic changes as the other words, so these words entered the language during the Romanization. Even the words which have an ultimately Greek origin are borrowed via Latin (for example Aromanian bisearică < Latin basilica < Greek basiliké stoà). If those proto-Romanians had contact directly with Greek, they would have had (at least some) Greek terms instead of the Latin ones. bogdan 22:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't think so. The issue is rarely addressed - the origin of the Vlachs is only an issue in propagandistic and academic areas. As far as I can tell, it's a minor theory that the Aromanians came from north of the Danube, with most scholars agreeing that they are Latinized indigenous populations, and it's also a minor theory that those Latinized populations were initially Greek. Most Vlachs in Greece today will tell you though that they are Latinized Greeks. --Tēlex 15:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as i know, the greek government is not using the term 're-hellenization' officially (for reasons that u can understand well). the term 'de-hellenization', however, is used, in order to describe past and present policies by other states/cultures/people, e.g. . Regarding the origin of the Aromanians, there are 4 'parties' involved: 1. the Romanian government (which says that they are Dacians (which means 'Romanians' for them), 2. the Greek government (which says that they are latinised Greeks-so, linguistically de-hellenized, and now re-hellenized linguistically), 3. the academians worldwide (who have a variety of theories, the prevailing being the 'latinized indigenous', id est 'Greeks' for the aromanians in Greece), 4. the Aromanians themselves (who say that they are latinized Greeks). Concerning your second question, no, there are no such institutes (and there couldn't be), since they would be seen as 'propagandistic vessels' abroad. --Hectorian 15:56, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "In modern times, it is used in connection with governmental policies. so if the greek gov doesnt use the term rehellenisation, what sources use the term rehelenisation then ? is this term used by massmedia, minority rights NGOs, experts in cultural studies, etc? how is used and who uses the term rehelenisation ? i will try to find more info on this matter, however if anybody can offer info, i appreciate it Criztu 19:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Re-Hellenization"

message: This article is by its nature an article about cultural assimilation (making something non-Greek to become Greek). It is presented as something very nice and smooth and noble: spreading the Greek culture among uneducated barbarians. Compare it with the similar articles Bulgarisation and Serbianization and you will see the difference. I have many sources, including neutral international ones (e.g. Carnegie commission) which show that Hellenization in most cases was forced and whole villages were killed by 'andanti'.
However, when I post this content on the page it is immediately deleted with personal threats to my talk page. Go easy, will you? I know that those facts are not pleasant for many Greek editors here and you try to hide them as well as you can but this is not Wikipedia policy. All views have to be presented. For persons who consistently delete such material, this is a most obvious disruptive editing WP:Vandalism. Lantonov 09:51, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you can add similar posters in the articles Bulgarisation and Serbianization if you have such posters. It is not put in the Balkan Wars because it does not apply to military action during the wars but it applies with full force in the occupied territory AFTER the wars. The Hellenic Army uses such posters to animate the sodiers for cruelty? Tell more about this. Lantonov 07:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  So, in fact you say that the Carnegie Commission lied in its report? I am putting the picture again in its right place where it was. If you do not agree discuss this in the talk page and do not remove a SOURCED content from a neutral, reliable, and verified source. Lantonov 08:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

text:  What the Carnegie commission says is that the posters were given to Greek sodiers when they RETURNED from the Second Balkan War. The commission saw them on the streets of Tessaloniki and Pyraea AFTER the war. This is a published (in the Bulgarian national library) official book of the Carnegie report and not only on the site. If you doubt it, then check the original and PROVE that it is not reliable. Your actions now are disruptive editing with which you try to push your POV by deleting sourced content and breaking several Wiki policies. Lantonov 08:28, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

text:  Cite the policies that I break, and I will cite the policies that you break. This source is as international as it can be. Lantonov 09:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  (То Lantonov) По мое мнение определено си струва да се заяжда човек за това. Гърците винаги се опитват да очернят всички, а самите те да се представят за жертви; а в действителност са извършили същински геноцид спрямо българското население, имало нещастието да остане на гръцка територия. Това, разбира се, се прикрива и от тях, и от запада и ще продължи да се крие, но ние сме длъжни да отстояваме позицията си, която е очевидно правилна. Как може да има славяногласни гърци, както казват те??? Това е абсурд, тези хора са българи, но никой няма да го признае. Все едно да има гръкогласни българи, които някога са обитавали Несебър или Созопол... малко се отклонявам вече... --Gligan 09:39, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

text:  In order to prove how far away are you from the mark here are the full details of the source that I used, including the ISBN number:
And a citation from the above book in which the picture is mentioned:
"Documents for Greek Macedonia that the Endowmen has, are not so detailed as those for Serbian Macedonia. But the data that we have, are enough to confirm the conclusion that in this case, too, even to the minute detail, is repeated everything that  occurs in the assimilation of the Bulgarian population in South Macedonia (Voden, Kostur, Lerin). The procedure is very analogous to that applied to the assimilation of the population to the south. The only difference is in this that the two methods of assimilation and extermination in Greek Macedonia are applied more systemically and less humanely. "Are they a "human" race those "dirty" Slavs? They are not "anthropi" (humans). They are "arkoudi" (bears)." Such words are often found in the evidence given to us. They are connected in cruelty with the word that corresponds exactly to the term "Bulgarophagos" (Bulgarian-eater) - an emotion that is deliberately cultivated in the army and among the Greek population through patriotic verses and popular pictures (see Illustration). Some of those verses and pictures are found in the Appendix., etc"
Go on and find the book by the ISBN number, it is working.
And do not vandalize this page any more by deleting SOURCED, VERIFIABLE, and RELIABLE content. Lantonov 12:03, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok, good luck in searching, but if you cite only Greek newspapers you are liable to attack for using non-reliable sources. You were the first to intimidate me in my talk page. This time be more cautious when accusing and threatening others who present views different from yours. Lantonov 12:35, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

text: What do you mean exactly by "trafficking on" a source? I give verbatim citation with picture that speaks about "assimilation" of Bulgarian by Greeks which is exactly what Hellenization is. Don't use such weasel words as "trafficing on a source" because they bely your extreme POV attitude. Lantonov 12:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I mean that you are using a citation from a book in order to present Greeks of trying to eat bulgarians, or kill them, or whatever else. This is not a Greek-Bulgarian freud it's the way you present history. You can very well understand that it is a war poster showing a Greek soldier attacking a bulgarian one in the heat of the battle, what on earth has this to do with an article about Hellenization? The use of this poster by you here was made only because you want to push your extreme bulgarian POV: look how the bad Greeks were treating us! We were the victims, etc, etc. It is a typical exaple of how nationalism works in the Balkans. Greeks, Bulgariars, Turks, Serbians, Albanians when they speak about themselves they are always the victims and the others are the bad people. This is what you are doing here.
Kapnisma ? 13:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What I present is the facts, the facts are written in books, and they present the truth as far as it is known. Everything else is hiding the truth and misrepresenting it. I challenge you once again to compare articles on similar topics: Bulgarisation and Hellenization and try to see how a reader who knows nothing about Balkan history gets from them the situation on the Balkans: Greeks are surrounded by barbarians who all the time kill them while Greeks try to spread their higher culture through Hellenization. This is simply a very biased and false view. Get facts. BTW, I see many citations in this article which are not verifiable and reliable. I will mark them so. Lantonov 13:11, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh, I see. After all this conversation, at last, we managed to understand what your real problem is: the article on Bulgarization. According to you is bad written, so because you don't feel very well about it and instead of making it better, you have desided to manipulate sources so that the Greeks also might be seen as commiting crimes against other people. Very nice, very mature handling of the subject, we should all be very proud about you.
I am not interested in nationalistic edit wars, so I am not going to deal with you any more. 
Hopefully, when someone else will read all these can easily inference what are your motives.
Kapnisma ? 16:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definitely POV article 

message: There is absolutely no international consensus on a definition of hellenisation in the modern era, partly because the issue is so charged with competing and partial views from various countries in the region ( and a single web source for the first). The same applies to the equally poorly evidenced concepts of 'de-hellenisation'  and 're-hellenisation', and this  subsection is clearly being used to promote various POVs. 
Rd76767r 12:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems the article is really kind of a hodge-podge of things better covered elsewhere, so might be better turned into a very short page that gives an overview of the various uses, with the specific content merged into existing articles or new ones. For example, Hellenization in the sense of spreading Greek language/culture via the Macedonian Empire is already much better covered in Hellenistic civilization, Hellenistic period, and related articles. The Roman-Catholic theological usage should be a different article; there's a long debate within the Western Christian churches about the proper influence of classical Greek philosophy in the church, but it's really its own topic. And the issue of modern Greece's minorities and their self identification and cultural shifts is already better covered in Minorities in Greece. So basically duplicating material isn't a great idea, especially when it's duplicated in a worse way. --Delirium 09:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of POV sections

message: I added the expert tag -- please discuss at Talk:Hellenism#reorganization and foreign-language articles. Joriki (talk) 15:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  expert tag added 

message: This is a very interesting topic and must be treated accordingly, but copying verbatim, sentences and a whole paragraph from the sources is not the way to do it. Please rewrite. Additional references would be more than welcome. Have a look for instance at Victor Roudometof, "From Rum Millet to Greek Nation: Enlightenment, Secularization, and National Identity in Ottoman Balkan Society, 1453–1821" or even Shashko, Philip
"Greece and the Intellectual Bases of the Bulgarian Renaissance" -if you are looking for supporting literature- and Zakythinos, Dionysios A.  "The Making of Modern Greece From Byzantium to Independence" for a different view. For the role of the church you can try Runciman, Steven
The Great Church in Captivity amongst others.--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 11:06, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Hellenisation during the Ottoman rule

message: ""Hellenistic" is also, of course, still used to refer to the religion of the people who follow this religion today."
What religion this refers to is unclear:  Greek Orthodox?  Neo-Pagan reconstructions of Ancient Greek religion?
In addition, what this religion followed today has to do with hellenization is equally unclear.  The line seems to have just been stuck in for no particular reason.
Winter Maiden (talk) 19:50, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern Usage 

message: * Neutral per above. But if the page is moved, the current title should remain as a redirect. Conversely, if there is no clear consensus to move, then per WP:ARTCON the -ise spellings should be removed from the rest of the article. I'm partial to Oxford spelling, and this would apparently allow the majority of other points (such as date format) to remain unchanged. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:52, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Survey 

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:06, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion