Talk:War artist

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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:WPholding at kap-yong 72.jpg

message: right|thumb
Recently the file : (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. It's a selfportrait. Dcoetzee 07:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  New file [[:{{#ifexist:File:File:Maurice William Greiffenhagen by Maurice William Greiffenhagen.jpg|File:File:Maurice William Greiffenhagen by Maurice William Greiffenhagen.jpg|File:Maurice William Greiffenhagen by Maurice William Greiffenhagen.jpg}}]] 

message: It seems OTT to have a dynamic list note under each sub heading: surely one note at the top would suffice?? Tomintoul (talk) 10:57, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: In response to this comment, all dynamic list templates were removed.  However, today I added templates in the American, Australian, British and Canadian sections.  Are they not necessary? unhelpful? --Tenmei (talk) 21:07, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dynamic lists 

message: Does it make sense to limit new additions to this list? Is it appropriate at this stage of the article's development to initiate a standard limiting names on this select list to 
:(a) those who already have Wikipedia articles 
:and 
:(b) those who are notable for something other than having depicted war in art -- see, e.g., US Navy Cross edit history? 
In a context informed by practices which seem to have worked out well at Navy Cross, all new additions who aren't already featured in an article could be re-redirected to this talk page section with the following edit history explanation:
::   redlink/artist name  must be known for something other than depicting war -- see "Status: Notability" on talk page
The redlinks of those whose names were added, but who do not have an article yet are listed below:
===Notable American war artists===
*Conrade Wise Chapman, Civil War
*Frank Vizetelly, Civil War
*Charles Johnson Post, Soldier-artist, Spanish American War
*Walter Granville-Smith, Newspaper, Spanish American War
*George Harding Army/Marines, World War I
*Griffith Baily Coale Navy, World War II
*Franklin Boggs US Public Broadcasting Service (PBS).  They Drew Fire: Combat Artists of World War II,  Franklin Boggs. 1st broadcast, May 2000. 
*Manuel Bromberg PBS. They Drew Fire,  Manuel Bromberg.
*Howard Cook Army, World War II
*David Fredenthal Army, World War II
*Richard M. Gibney PBS. They Drew Fire,  Richard Gibney.
*Albert Gold Army, World War II
*Robert Greenhalgh PBS. They Drew Fire,  Robert Greenhalgh.
*George Harding Marines, World War II
*Theo Hios Marines, World War II
*Ardis Hughes, World War II
*Lucien Labaudt Army, World War II
*Edward Lanning Army, World War II
*Edward Millman Navy, World War II
*Bill Maudlin Army, World War II
*Barse Miller Army, World War II
*Harry D. Reeks Marines, World War II
*Edward Reep PBS. They Drew Fire,  Edward Reep.
*Alexander P. Russo Navy, World War II
*Sidney Simon Army, World War II
*A. Brockie Stevenson Army, World War II
*Frede Vidar Army, World War II
*Kristopher J. Battles, Recent conflicts
* Bernard Arnest, 1917–1986 Brown University Library, American war artists
* Walter Arnett, 1922–     
* Richard Baldwin, 1920–     
* Robert Benny, 1904–     
* Robert Noel Blair, 1912–     
* William Bostick, 1913–     
* Manuel Bromberg, 1917–     
* Foster Caddell, 1921–     
* William Capece, 1919–     
* Walter Chapman, 1912–     
* Keith Crown, 1918–     
* Wayne Dean
* Walter Feldman, 1925–     
* David Fredenthal, 1915–1958.     
* Richard Gibney, 1922–     
* Albert Gold, 1916–     
* Theo Hios, 1908–     
* Joe Jones Army Harrington, Peter, "The 1943 War Art Program," Army History, No. 55, Spring-Summer 2002, pp. 4-19.
* Mimi Korach Lesser, 1922–     
* Julian Mackewicz, 1915–     
* Richard Morton (artist), 1921–     
*Albert Murray (artist) Navy
* Stephen Pace (artist), 1918–     
* Harry Reeks, 1921–1982.     
* Charles Salerno, 1912–     
* Charles Shannon (artist), 1914–     
* Benjamin Steele 
* Albert Stevenson, 1919–      
* James Walker (artist)?
* Albert Wasserman, 1920–     
* Patricia Yaps, 1935- .
:;Notes
===Notable Australian war artists===
* Louis McCubbin, 1890 – 1952 . First World War Australian War Memorial (AWM):  First World War, official artists
* J. S. McDonald, First World War 
* James F. Scott (artist), 1877 – 1932 , First World War 
* Dennis Adams, 1914 – 2001, Second World War AWM:  Second World War, official artists
* George Allen, 1900 – 1972, Second World War 
* Richard Ashton, 1913 – 2001, Second World War 
* Conway Bown, 1966 -   Australian Department of Defence; 5 March 2011
* George Browning, 1918 – 2000, Second World War 
* Charles Bush, 1919 – 1989, Second World War 
* Colin Colahan, 1897 – 1987, Second World War 
* Sybil Craig, 1901 – 1989, Second World War 
* R. Emerson Curtis, 1899 – 1996, Second World War 
* Lyndon Dadswell, 1908 – 1986, Second World War 
* James Flett, 1906 – 1986, Second World War 
* Roy Hodgkinson, 1911 – 1992, Second World War 
* Frank Hodgkinson, 1919 – 2001, Second World War 
* Geoffrey Mainwaring, 1912 – 2000, Second World War 
* Max Ragless, 1901 – 1981, Second World War 
* Reg Rowed, 1916 – 1990, Second World War 
* R. Malcolm Warner, 1902 – 1966, Second World War 
* Max Newton, 1919 – 1975, Second World War 
* Eric Thake, 1904 - 1982, Second World War 
* Rex Julius, 1914 – 1944, Second World War 
* Jeffery Wilkinson, 1921 – 1997, Second World War 
* George Colville, 1887 – 1970, British Commonwealth Occupation Force (BCOF), Japan 
*Conway Bown, Iraq War
* Lyndell Brown, 1961 -     , War in Iraq AWM:  Conflicts 1945 to today, official artists
* Jon Cattapan, 1956 -     , Peacekeeping in East Timor 
* Bruce Fletcher, 1937 -     , Vietnam War 
* Charles Green, b. 1953, War in Iraq 
* eX de Medici, 1959 -     , Peacekeeping in Solomon Islands 
* Herbert Badham,  1899-1961, Second World War Canadian War Museum (CWM),  Herbert Badham
* Charles Bush, 1919-1989, Second World War CWM,  Charles Bush
* Colin Colahan, 1897-1987 , Second World War CWM,   Colin Colahan
* Sybil Craig, 1901-1989 , Second World War CWM, Sybil Craig
* Lyndon Dadswell, 1908-1986 , Second World War CWM, Lyndon Dadswell
* Sheila Hawkins, 1905-1999 , Second World War CWM, Sheila Hawkins
* Francis Lymburner, 1916-1972 , Second World War CWM, Francis Lymburner
* Eric Thake, 1904-1982 , Second World War CWM, Eric Thake
:;Notes
===Notable British war artists===
* J. Bell, post-Crimea
* Stephen Bone, Second World War
* Paul Bullard, 1918-1996, Second World War Canadian War Museum (CWM),  Paul Bullard
* Graham Barry Clilverd, Second World War
* James A. Crowe, Crimean War
* Leslie Cole, 1910-1976, Second World War CWM,  Leslie Cole
* E.T. Dolby, Crimean War
* Arabella Dorman, Iraq War Harrison, David.  "War artist Arabella Dorman paints Iraq," Telegraph (London). May 2, 2009.
* Richard Ernst Eurich, 1903 – 1992, Second World War
* Maurice William Greiffenhagen, Boer Wars
* Anthony Gross CBE RA, 1905-1984, Second World War CWM,  Anthony Gross
* William Hampton (artist) British Ministry of Defence (MOD),  War artists
* Archibald Standish Hartrick (1864-1950), First World War
* Elsie Hewland, 1935 -     , Second World War CWM,  Elsie Hewland
* Norman Howard MOD,
 Battles
* Cedric Kennedy, 1898-1968, Second World War CWM,  Cedric Kennedy 
* Linda Kitson, Falklands campaign
* Edwin La Dell RA, 1914-1970, Second World War CWM, Edwin La Dell
* Robert T. Landells, Crimean War
* Rowland Langmaid 
* W. T. Maud, Boer Wars
* Irving Montagu, post-Crimea
* James Morris, Second World War
* Rodrigo Moynihan RA CBE, 1910-1990, Second World War CWM,  Rodrigo Moynihan
* Montague O'Reilly, Crimean War
* Charles Pears, 1873 - 1958, First World War
* George Plante, 1914-1995, Second World War CWM,  George Plante
* Leonard Rosoman RA, 1935 -     , Second World War CWM,  Leonard Rosoman
* John Schonberg, post-Crimea
* Alistair Stewart (artist)
* Alfred Thomson RA, 1894-1979, Second World War CWM,  A. R. Thomson
* Matvyn Wright, 1910 -     , Second World War CWM,  Matvyn Wright
* H. C. Seppings Wright, Boer Wars 
:;Notes
===Notable Canadian war artists===
*Thomas Harold Beament, 1898 - 1985, Second World War Library and Archives Canada (LAC),  Thomas Harold Beament
*Bruno Jacob Bobak, 1923 -     , Second World War LAC,  Bruno Jacob Bobak
*Patrick George Cowley-Brown, 1918 - 2007, Second World War
* Richard Eurich, 1903-1992, Second World War CWM,  Richard Eurich
*Francis Michael Forster, 1908 -     , Second World War LAC,  Francis Michael Forster
* Charles Goldhamer, 1903-1985, Second World War CWM,  Charles Goldhamer 
*Paul Alexander Goranson, 1911 - 2002, Second World War LAC,  Paul Alexander Goranson
*Lawren Phillips Harris, 1910 - 1994, Second World War CWM, Lawren Phillips Harris
* Edward John Hughes, 1913 2007, Second World War CWM, E.J. Hughes; Art History Archive:  E.J. Hughes
*Charles Anthony Francis Law, 1916 - 1996, Second World War
* Thomas Reid MacDonald, 1908-1978, Second World War CWM,  T. R. MacDonald
*Donald Cameron MacKay, 1906 - 1979, Second World War
*Rowley Walter Murphy, 1892 - 1973, Second World War
*George Douglas Pepper, 1903 - 1962, Second World War
*George Campbell Tinning, 1910 - 1996, Second World War
* Moses Reinblatt, 1917-1979, Second World War CWM,  Moses Reinblatt
*Thomas Charles Wood, 1913 - 1997, Second World War
*Dailin Spence, 1990 - 2007, Gulf War
*William Macdonnell, 1943 -     , Balkan conflict
*Allan Harding Mackay, 1944 -     , Afghanistan
*smsteele first official war poet?, 1966 -     , Afghanistan
*John Malcolm Horton, 1935 -     , Persian Gulf
:;Notes
===Notable French war artists===
*Henri Durand-Brager
*Lucien Jonas
*Isidore Pils
===Notable German war artists===
*Louis Braun, Franco-Prussian War
*Heinrich Lang, Franco-Prussian War
* Herbert Agricola WW2Talk,  German Official War Artists, citing German War Art 1939-45 by William Yenne.
* Max Ahrens 
* Josef Arens  
* Otto Bloss 
* Hans Boehme 
* N. Bohnsteen 
* Karl Busch 
* Elk Eber 
* Ernst Eigener, Second World War
* Fritz Freitag (artist) 
* Fritz Friedel 
* Friedhelm Froemer 
* Helmut Georg 
* Egon Grabner 
* Eduard von Handel-Mazzetti 
* Rudolf Henzel 
* Willy Hermann 
* Heinz Hindorf 
* Albert Janesch 
* Olaf Jordan 
* Heinrich Knirr 
* Arno Koenig 
* Herman Kohlmann 
* Hans Liska, Second World War
* Muller-Gera 
* Walter Preiss 
* Karl Raible 
* Walter Rose (artist) 
* Harold Schwertifiger 
* Wilhelm Wessel, 1904-1971 Archives New Zealand (Archives NZ),  Wilhelm Wessel;  Wessel bio notes  
* Ernst Widmann 
* Wolfgang Willrich, Second World War
:;Notes
===Notable New Zealand war artists===
* George Edmund Butler, 1872-1936 Archives NZ, Edmund Butler 
* Alfred Pearse Archives NZ, What is war art
* Nugent Welch, 1881-1970 Archives NZ, Nugent Welch
* Austin Deans 
* Jack Crippen Archives NZ, Jack Crippen
* Allan Barns-Graham, 1906-2006 Archives NZ, Allan Barns-Graham
* Edward S Annison Archives NZ,  War Art, Artist biographies
* Allan Barns-Graham 
* William Frederick Bell 
* Leo Bensemann 
* Walter Armiger Bowring 
* Frank William Brangwyn 
* L M Buick-Constable 
* Gerald Maurice Burn 
* George Edmund Butler 
* F D Choate 
* E F Christie 
* George Claussen 
* Herbert James Bowkett Coe 
* Archibald Douglas Colquhoun 
* R Maurice Conly 
* Jack Crippen 
* Frederick Herbert Cumberworth 
* Austen Deans 
* William Dring 
* John Cameron Duncan 
* A J T Fraser 
* E Fritsch 
* A N Goldwater 
* H M Gore 
* P Grabner 
* Maurice W Grieffenhagen 
* Harley Griffiths 
* William Henry Gummer 
* Archibald Standish-Hartrick 
* P M Hutchison 
* M Jillet 
* M Jonas 
* Robin Kay 
* Annie Elizabeth Kelly 
* Eric Henri Kennington 
* Carl Thorwald Laugesen 
* Linwood Anthony Lipanovic 
* Francis McCracken 
* H M McFarlane 
* J McMaster 
* W D F McPhee 
* Duncan McPhee 
* Otto Meister 
* A B Miller 
* Leonard Victor Mitchell 
* Gerald E Moira 
* Wolf Moller 
* Horace Millichamp Moore-Jones Gray, Anne.  "Moore-Jones, Horace Millichamp 1867/1868? - 1922,"   Dictionary of New Zealand Biography.
* Peter Moriarty 
* Archibald Frank Nicoll 
* Cuthbert Orde 
* C M Paterson 
* Charles Pear 
* Louis Raemakers 
* D J Ramage 
* Harry Linley Richardson 
* K T Roussell 
* Walter Schmock 
* Claude Shepperson 
* John Pine Snadden 
* Geoffrey Stobie 
* A M Thompson 
* Ernest Heber Thompson 
* A B Townshend 
* Cecil Trevithick 
* Mary Elizabeth Richardson Tripe 
* Mark Venables   
* Richard Wallwork 
* Nugent Welch 
* D'Arcy Whiting 
* F W Woodhouse 
* F Woodruffe 
* G E Woolley 
* William Lionel Wylie  
:;Notes
===Notable Russian war artists===
*Ivan Vladimirov
When any of the above-listed redlink names turn blue, we will know that transferring these names to the talk page was a worthwhile exercise.  If none turn blue, then we will have learned that this was a waste of time and effort. --Tenmei (talk) 15:40, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Status: notability?

message: *Ivan Vladimirov
When any of the above-listed redlink names turn blue, we will know that transferring these names to the talk page was a worthwhile exercise.  If none turn blue, then we will have learned that this was a waste of time and effort. --Tenmei (talk) 15:40, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Notable Russian war artists

message: Question: In the unique context of this article, should we identify the Anglo-American Benjamin West as a "Canadian war artist" because he painted The Death of General Wolfe?  Should we describe Augustus John and Alfred Bastien as "Non-Canadian war artists" despite the fact that their significant combat experience was with Canadian troops? --Tenmei (talk) 19:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-Canadian war artists?

message: At present, the lists are divided by nationality and the sub-divided chronologically by historical war; however, this is not the only way in which this subject may be parsed.  The following are some examples of other ways to examine this subject:
The wealth of reliable sources which are revealed by googling "war artist" is support for a strategy of creating sub-articles which focus exclusively on "official" war artists of the First World War, the Second Word War and subsequent "post-war" conflicts.  These men and women traveled toward danger and combat armed primarily with a sketch-pad and secondarily with a gun.  This overview article then becomes about the artists who are properly excluded from those new articles.  For example, 
Non-official war artist
Artist as non-contemporary story-teller?  Leutze was born long after the event depicted in his greatest painting; and he did not personally participate in combat in this or any other war. 
The artist's depiction of an event in the American Revolutionary War was based on second-hand, indirect accounts?
_____
 
Artist as contemporary, non-inolved observer? Does it matter that, as an eye-witness and as an artist, Vasili Vereshchagin was neither Spanish, American nor Filipino in the Spanish-American War in 1901?  If an article about Official Filipino war artists were created, Vereshhagin would be excluded, yes?
:Official war artist
:Depiction based on first-hand experience.  Orengen was a sketch-correspondent in the Russo-Turkish War, supplying artwork for publication by Russian and French journals and newspapers.  
:This depiction of events in war in 1877 was based on first-hand, eyewitness, first-hand experience.
:Artist only as agent of the state? Does it matter that, as an eye-witness and as a painter, Orenburgsky was not explicitly an agent of the Russian state?  If an article about Official Russian war artists were created, Orenburgsky would be excluded, yes? 
:_____
                .
:Agent of the state only as non-combatant artist? Does it matter that, as an eye-witness and as an artist, Otto Dix was only a German soldier on the western front in 1914-1917 and at the eastern front on 1917-1918?  If an article about Official German war artists were created, Dix would be excluded, yes?
This is a work in progress. --Tenmei (talk) 19:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is currently two things. It is a topic "War artist", is a list article "List of war artists". The refs I see define "War Art", not "War Artist". This may be the crux of the problem with this article --- it has the wrong title. "War Art" can be definable by reference. Who is a "War Artist" is a variable overlapping and lengthy topic. The way to handle overlapping lists of material with slightly differing definitions is by WP:LIST, i.e. we should handle this through the list system, not a single article. What is probably needed is to move this article to "War art", that has a definable limited definition. "War art" should contain a "List of lists". Each list can be specific and overlapping under WP:LIST re: List of official war artists by country, List of civilian artists who have depicted war contemporaneously which may overlap with List of civilian battlefield artists, etc. Ohioartdude2 (talk) 17:27, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-"war artists"?

message: My view is that a true war artist is involved in the actual conflict in some way and present at the events they record. This is irrespective of whether they were appointed by the state (or others) or worked of their own volition. For example, I would not consider Picasso a war artist simply because he painted about war (no matter how great or famous the actual work).Tomintoul (talk) 08:01, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think we can go by personal definitions. There has to be some solid definition references or we don't even have an article, we just have WP:SYNTH (It could be a case for moving this entire article to List of artists who have depicted war - what it currently seems to be). Above at Talk:War artist#Dispute definition of war artist there is what seems to be one def. More are needed. Direct experience/reaction by contemporary soldiers or civilians seems to be the overall criteria. So Picasso would be a "War Artist" under that def, Leutze would fall more under the definition of a "history painter", he has no direct experience. I would also note that the current opening ref "About the Imperial War Museum" does not mention or define "War artist" by name so is a bit of a stretch to support an intro def. Ohioartdude2 (talk) 15:50, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

text: BTW the headings "Notable XXXX war artists" is redundant. It should just have headings like "Australian war artists" etc. If they are in Wikipedia they are notable. If this article has solid references per: "War artist is a valid Wikipedia article topic" - then they should be listed here, they are not here because they are notable in some way. Ohioartdude2 (talk) 16:41, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes -- "notable" and "war artist" are redundant in each section heading; but it was a reasonable emphasis in an earlier stage of development.  As you can see, the duplicative section headings are now more concise. --Tenmei (talk) 19:31, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Back to the definition of war artist! 

message: I'm still not sure that I understand, but whether intended or not,  Ohioartdude2 does appear to be proposing a legitimate 17th century academic argument about expanding the article about Military art, which is construed as a sub-type of genre painting.  Yes, war art can be classified as genre painting; but in the twentieth century, the ambit of war art has come to encompass the full range of art history genres.  
The concept of the "hierarchy of genres" was compelling between the 17th and 19th centuries.  It was strongest in France, where it was associated with the Académie française which held a central role in academic art. The traditional academic genres include:
*genre painting
*history painting
*landscape painting
*portrait painting
*still life painting
It is entirely reasonable that someone with "art" in his username would hold views which are informed by an appreciation of academic art. In other words, I think I do now understand what Ohioartdude2 proposes and why.  Paraphrasing Samuel van Hoogstraten, it appears that Ohioartdude2 conceives of war artists as the "common footmen in the Army of Art" rather than acknowledging the role or the men and women integrated within the fabric of modern military forces.   
In part, Ohioartdude2's argument is persuasive. Accordingly, I have modified the redirect for War art.  Instead of redirecting to War artist, the search term now redirects to Military art.  Ohioartdude2's POV is one that Wikipedia endorses in this context.
In relation to the opinions about War artist and its several spin-offs, Ohioartdude2 is not wrong; however, his arguments are insufficient in my view.  In this instance, the academic POV is disfavored -- see contemporary genre theories at   Genre#Antecedent genres and   Genre#Tyranny of genre.  This is an instance of barking up the wrong tree.
Fortunately for us, WP:V simplifies the issue at hand.  It bears repeating that "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true."  The validity of an article about the War artist is validated by the books which incorporate the term "war artist" in the title, e.g., 
* Foot, Michael Richard Daniel. (1990). Art and War: Twentieth Century Warfare as Depicted by War Artists. London: Headline. 10-/13-;  OCLC 21407670
* Harries, Meirion and Suzie Harries. (1983). The War Artists: British Official War Art of the Twentieth Century. London: Michael Joseph. 10-/13-;  OCLC 9888782
* Haworth, Jennifer. (2007). The Art of War: New Zealand War Artists in the Field 1939-1945. Christchurch, New Zealand: Hazard Press. 13-/10-;  OCLC 174078159
* Lanker, Brian, and Nicole Newnham (2000). They Drew Fire: Combat Artists of World War II. New York: TV Books.	10-/13-; OCLC 43245885
* Weber, John Paul (1979). The German War Artists. Columbia, South Carolina: Cerberus. 10-/13-;  OCLC 5727293
Over the course of the coming months, I will continue to re-visit what Ohioartdude2 has posted on this talk page.  His words are timely and meaningful in the process of refining consensus about what this article is and is not. --Tenmei (talk) 15:49, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The "under construction" headnote was added as a way of acknowledging the reasonable points that have been put forward by Ohioartdude2.  My guess is that it should probably remain in place until some kind of consensus develops about the focus and scope of this article, or if -- as Ohioartdude2 asserts -- this article should continue to exist. --Tenmei (talk) 19:16, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think your logic is sound to develop war artist as long as you make the article more than a list, i.e. include the social and cultural implication of "war artists" as a community, instead along with the history of the unit. I will certainly be willing to monitor your edits and can review the article as you feel it nears completion. Sadads (talk) 00:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This article should "continue to exist", that is not the question. The question is "does it follow reference or is it original research?". Right now we have a myriad of references, none of which even state a basic definition and the current article is ignoring some very reliable secondary and tertiary sources that do provide a basic definition. That makes this article Wikipedia:Synthesis at this point and I am tagging it as such. Intro and basic definition references are the same as those used at Military art and have the same problem as noted by me at Talk:Military art#Problematic edits. Ohioartdude2 (talk) 22:18, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Taxonomy]] argument

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
*Oppose - It should be split and their should be articles on both topics. War artists are a distinctive subculture in the military and the art communities, and have very different objectives then regular artists(alternative title for the article could be "Combat artist" to make it more distinct and utilize the titling gave by sources such as those of the article United States Army Art Program). War art can be done by both "war artists" and regular artists. Sadads (talk) 17:37, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *comment - You may want to provide references to the effect that these topics are different. Reliable sources I have found so far say the topics are the same and Wikipedia does not allow for content forks. I would note that the article United States Army Art Program seems to be a descriptive article based on observation of the title in documentation, not art historical reference, has no supporting references in its introduction, and the first document cited clearly states the topic as "War art". Ohioartdude2 (talk) 19:00, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, consider links found when you google search it, http://www.google.com/search?q=Combat+artist&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a, Sadads (talk) 19:11, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :War artist's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Independent":
From Frauke Eigen: 
From Linda Kitson: 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 12:29, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. It was my mistake. Thanks, AnomieBOT. Most impressive. Rubywine . talk 12:47, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:War artist]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Revisiting this article there seem to be several problems:
*all sources defining the topic have dried up (dead links). Its sourcing style is very unreliable - shortcut links to some websites instead of listing author, title, date, etc.
*the sourcing I can find does not match the lead of this article:
**Tate.org - War artists - War artists are artists who are commissioned through an official scheme to record the events of war.
**The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Art Terms (2 ed.) - Official War Art - Art commissioned in Britain during the First and Second World Wars from selected artists to record the nation at war. The scheme embraced many distinguished painters and draughtsmen..... 
**War and Conflict by Jane Bingham · Raintree 2006, pages 30-35 covers the topic beginning with Goya, through the American Civil War, and notes by WWI the profession of War Artist had been well established. 
**A Combat Artist in World War II, by Edward Reep · University Press of Kentucky 2015, page 200 Note a "war artist" documents war.
So we get a basic definition: "A war artist is an artist commissioned by a government or publication, or self motivated, to document war". Its described as an occupation, not a genre. Tagging and noting the problem for cleanup. Ohioartdude2 (talk) 20:40, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like that's a combination of government and self motivated. Ohioartdude2 (talk) 22:38, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are getting over-precise here. Is a narrow definition required?  Add those refs by all means - it's no use just adding adding a tag. I've cleaned up by removing it, among other things. Johnbod (talk) 02:14, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old problem, even worse now - no reliable sources define this article 

message: The section "War artists by nationality" takes up over three quarters of the article. It should be split into a separate article. JIP | Talk 23:50, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the split into a separate page.Gusfriend (talk) 04:23, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

text: Oppose, as a large percentage of readers going to the title "War artist" will not find or know to go to another page for fuller information. Nationalities in war are an important part of each conflict, so war artists divided by nationalities (at the main 'War artist' page) covers that aspect of the events. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:00, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

text: Oppose but the large number of early military/naval artists who painted genre battles on land or sea, often wholly imaginary ones, and usually without ever having gone near an actual conflict, should be somewhere else. Johnbod (talk) 17:38, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

text: Support I think a separate page, List of war artists, adhering to the same standards as other such 'List of ...' artist pages would be an improvement.14GTR (talk) 07:14, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split proposal