Talk:300 (film)/Archive 4

message: Would be a nice change of pace from the political crap.
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:Erik (talk • contrib • review) - 16:03, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  VFXWorld article 

message: Well, I'm new and not sure how to make a new discussion, but maybe I could put it here? I was thinking, the whole thing is told as a story by Dilios, right? Maybe the reason the Persians are depicted the way they are, and in fact many historical inaccuracies, could be explained by this. I mean, when one tells a story, they rarely ever tell it exactly how it happened, and most of the time, they add and change things for various reasons. I was thinking of adding it to the article at least as a suggestion, but I don't think it is allowed. Neospawn 17:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be original research, because you don't have a reliable source saying such a thing.   BIGNOLE   (Contact me) 17:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see what he is talking about, and while I think it might not be necessary to the film beyond its current mentioning, storytelling is not beyond making up events or imagery to rell a story. That said, unless we can find a citation that speaks to this, we cannot include it, as it would be OR. Arcayne 17:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I added a bit. It likely needs to be massaged somewhat. Arcayne 21:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Depiction explanation

message: A couple of back-and-forth edits have occurred about the nationality/ethnicity of Touraj Dayaee. Some think it's important to mention that he is Iranian-born, and some do not. For me, the question is super simple: would the scholar's words have less weight were they Irish? How about Pakistani? Or Iraqi or Japanese? 
If so, then it doesn't matter what he says, since his ethnicity matter more than what he says. That implies a POV mindset which is unacceptable here. If, however the ethnicity doesn't matter, then what is correct is to mention his title, and leave the rest alone. Arcayne 05:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that his title is sufficient. In any case, his name is linked, so anyone who wants to know can click on it and will see that he was born in Tehran. --Javits2000 09:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Further on this: now that I've looked at the edit history, I see that the proposed edit was "The Iranian scholar T.D...." Iran is an article about a nation, not an ethnic group. If nationality is what matters, the proper designation for Daryaee would of course be American. --Javits2000 09:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is immaterial what the person's nationality is, unless they are speaking solely as a member of that group (and that itself is hardly worthy of note). If, however, we are to  follow this, we need to remove the Greek descriptor from the names of Robby Eksiel (from the Critical Reaction section) and Dimitris Danikas (Depiction of Persians). Furthermore, I strongly suggest that Danikas' comments have no bearing in that section, and should instead be moved to the Critical Reception section, as his profession is that of movie reviewer and not sociologist, ethnographer or political scientist. That his comments are even in that particular section lends credence to the idea that we are missing POV-pushing. Arcayne 15:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I said more on Arcayne's page, but basically the ethnicity should only be mentioned if that is why the person was cited.  Hence, for Daryaee, the ethnicity is not appropriate because he is notable for his academic authority on ancient history, not his Iranian background.  I'm not sure about the Greek film critic, but it is worth looking into.  The Behnam 16:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've already removed it from both, and think the text is not damaged by their removal. Miskin made a valid point regarding their presence, and while i strongly think that Daryaee is directly refuted by Herodotus' own account (I know - I was surprised myself), I don't know enough about the Battle or Herodotus enough to present contrast w/out skipping down the pat h to OR-Town. Someone else should take a crack at it, though... Arcayne 17:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good call on the Greek critics; the only reason that was notable was because so many film articles include only the American response! But no need to pat ourselves on the back. I'm sure Daryaee has read Herodotus and has his reasons, valid or not, for distrusting him. I'm not sure I understand why film reviewers should be excluded from "depictions of Persians" -- it strikes me as a perfectly "cinematic" subject. In any case, they're all we have in there at present, besides the incensed Iranians, although a perspective from a sociologist or whatever would be useful if we could find one. --Javits2000 18:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I think that because there are some mistakes in the Daryaee quotation, we should actively search for something to replace it that maintains the same viewpoint, but doesn't include mistakes of interpretation. Daryaee should maybe read more comic books. :) Arcayne 23:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, he could certainly lighten up a bit. But what exactly are the mistakes in the quotation? I missed that bit. --Javits2000 00:43, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nationality

message: As a military specialist on this era, where can we add Victor Davis Hanson's '300' Fact or Fiction??
:We have already cited Hanson, although a different essay, under "historical accuracy." Does this new reference add anything that's of use? --Javits2000 11:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've read the citation, and I think it essentially rehashes his prior statements. Arcayne 15:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In retrospect, I'm going to qualify tht last statement. I think that while Hanson essentially reiterates that Miller and Snyder are using Herodotus' material, there is supplementary information in the above citation as to them using the same sorts of devices of fantasy to communicate that material. Additional information should be added to that effect next to the statements already in place. Arcayne 16:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Check it out and tweak as necessary. :) Arcayne 16:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hanson

message: The plot summary looks worse now than it did when it had more paragraphs. That huge last paragraph has got to be split up, it looks terrible. And as a side note, I find quotations in the plot summary unnecessary, especially when we're trying to keep the length down. Alabasterchinchilla 18:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I cut the last paragraph in half, hopefully at a point that makes some sense. I think the size of the paragraphs look good now. Let's leave it at four or five decently-size paragraphs, instead of trying to cram an entire two hours worth of plot into overly-large paragraphs that make the page look terrible. Please? Alabasterchinchilla 19:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The quotes are there because they represent something taken directly from history, and since the plot is below 700 words, we don't need to actually cut anymore. If you look at the quotes, they are linked to actual articles.   BIGNOLE   (Contact me) 19:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Additionally, quotes were used where the source used words or phrases that have a specific effect on the course of the article; better to include them than deal with cries of POV-pushing. You do make good points though, Alabasterchinchilla (wot a silli name for a llama's sidekick). The article is getting pretty tight now, ever closer to GA and FA consideration, but that doesn't mean that if something comes along tht imporves the article, it should be nixed. Staying vigilant and open-minded is always a good thing. Arcayne 23:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Plot summary issues

message: I've been chipping away at standardizing the citations, which was one issue that came up on the "Peer Review" page. Which makes me think -- that page doesn't seem to be generating any more replies. Should we start thinking about putting the article up for GA? Is there anything else we would want to take care of before doing so? --Javits2000 19:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be best to wait another week or two; the film is still very much in theaters, especially internationally.  The Iranian President's recent statement might spur further hostility in the next few days. Erik (talk • contrib • review) - 20:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. --Javits2000 20:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. Gird your loins, boys and girls. :P Arcayne 22:33, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA?

message: I recently removed the wikilink for the ephors from the article, as the definition navigated to doesn't fit the role they were given in the film (despite them being so-named). If my edit isn't sound, please feel free to edit, but please explain why. Arcayne 02:12, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tough call. As you said, the term is a misnomer on the part of the film, not the article. I think removing the link was wise. EuPhyte 02:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think "priests of the oracle" is sufficiently descriptive. I frankly don't recall them being called "ephors" in the film, but it's been over a week now since I saw it. --Javits2000 12:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ephors?

message: I know that I've started carping about length again; nevertheless I went ahead and added a quick summary of this interview with Paul Cartledge, who is a notable historian of Sparta and briefly advised the filmmakers, under 'historical accuracy.' I think it's useful both because of his formal connection with the film and because he's, well, perhaps a more respectable positive voice than Hanson, who's a bit of an ideologue. --Javits2000 12:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cartledge

message: One more bit of business; I've placed a fact tag on the following sentence, under "box office": "300 opened in Greece two days earlier on March 7, 2007 in the city of Sparta (followed by an avant première in Athens the next day)." This information isn't found in the ref that follows. It would, however, be notable if the film did premiere in Sparta, so I'm leaving the sentence in for the time being. I'll leave a message for the user who added the sentence; but has anyone else read something about this? --Javits2000 12:15, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Google parts of the phrasing; it might be located that way, and we can just fix the cite. I've been noticing that some users (mostly anon IP) will go into an article and remove one letter from a ref to disable it. Most would miss it in a diff history survey as it's only one letter. Such users, btw, deserve a baseball bat to the eyes. Arcayne 18:01, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Hi! There ARE many references, but all the websites are in greek!:D Actually the premiere was organised by Village Roadshow, the Austalian distributor and Multiplex owner around the world. Thus the flim opened two days earlier in sparta in the Village Center multiplex and also in Athens in the Village multiplex in ALL of its cinema screens in""The Mall Athens"". But unfortunately, poor International PR made that few outside greece knew about this.Part of the news can be found here http://www.lgr.co.uk/events/highlighted/5914/homecoming-for-300-in-sparta/Zisimos 18:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, that reference covers the Sparta half. I personally wouldn't have any problem with citing a Greek newspaper article if there's a good one that covered the openings. --Javits2000 19:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Spartan premiere?

message: Talk is getting big again, so I'll be archiving sometime Saturday evening. Please tie up conversations occurring prior tothe "Oh Geez" header by then. Arcayne 23:09, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive action looms

message: I think we should add the following text in the Soundtrack section. Please advise:
The melody of the soundtrack "Message For The Queen" is exactly the same with the melody of the Macedonian folk song "Zajdi Zajdi Jasno Sonce". Although regarded as old folk song, "Zajdi Zajdi Jasno Sonce" is actually composed by Aleksandar Sarievski, a famous singer and composer of Macedonian folk songs. 
--GoranStojanov 13:07, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's my opinion that this comparison, howeverso convincing, constitutes original research, as it supplies no "reputable source" for the similarity / identity of the tunes. If such a source (for example, a newspaper or magazine article) were supplied, I would be in favor of including the comparison, especially as the issue of the the score's originality, or lack thereof, has already been raised in the reviews cited in the article as it stands. What do other people think? --Javits2000 13:42, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the melody is exactly the same, I wouldn't say that is a research, but rather a simple comparison. --GoranStojanov 14:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course a source for the claim of authorship by Sarievski would also have to be supplied. However, while I maintain my position stated above, I do feel this is a debatable case, especially given the identity of the melodies, and would appreciate the input of other editors. --Javits2000 16:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Simple comparisons definitely fall under original research.  What may be a simple comparison to you may not be one to me, and your claim cannot be verified without a reliable source. —Erik (talk • contrib • review) - 16:41, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I actually brought up the need for the citable reference, on his own talk page. Maybe he doesn't know the proper definition of what he needs. It cannot be in without citation. It opens WP to libel if a statement like that makes it into the article without attribution. WP:BLP applies a bit to the statment's inclusion. Arcayne 17:58, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the movie is still not shown in Macedonia. I'll keep on monitoring macedonian media. I'm sure they will not miss this obvious case of "borrowing" a melody. --GoranStojanov 12:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soundtrack "Message For The Queen" 

message: From time to time there are posters for 300 on xbox live during a match.Peacemaker456 22:01, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as Marketing goes, I'm not sure how necessary this information is. I wouldn't oppose a brief mention of it, though, as it can reflect how the marketing strategy has permeated action figures, video games, the UFC, and online environments. —Erik (talk • contrib • review) - 22:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Posters in Rainbow 6 Vegas