Talk:Jobbik

message: The "Antisemitism" section could definitely use a neutrality "touch-up"...UsernameTBD (talk) 23:06, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: How? What exactly do you see as wrong with it? AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:10, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

text: User:UsernameTBD which statements exactly do you consider to be biased? You need to be more clear. 78.101.61.67 (talk) 23:14, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Mix of bias and weasel words...For some of the claims made, they need more then one source, and/or a source alone... (e.g. "and has also been accused of anti-Semitism on several occasions for statements he has made about Jews at Jobbik events.")... The statement: "Jobbik has also been linked to homophobic incidents in Budapest.[86][87]" has no reason to be placed in this section; it's obviously not related to anti-Semitism...The section is just a cluster; becoming a neutrality issue in a section such as this...UsernameTBD (talk) 23:18, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree the remarks about homophobia seem misplaced - there is a section on the topic. As for the rest, I'm in no position to read most of the sources - I suggest that you tag anything obviously unsourced, and then start a discussion here on what needs to be done in specific cases. You need to bear in mind though that Wikipedia aims for neutrality as a reflection of coverage in reliable sources - and if such sources generally describe Jobbik as antisemitic our article would have to reflect this. Certainly from a quick look at the English-language media there is little reluctance to characterise them as far-right.  AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:52, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Well said. UsernameTBD (talk) 23:59, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality dispute... 

message: Hi everybody! The Jobbik got the new ideology, and new colors. Their colours is turquoise, because in the Facebook, they created a new color, which is the turquoise blue color. The new ideology is the Liberal conservatism, Christian democracy, and the Pro-Europeanism. Márton Gyöngyösi, the Jobbik's politican said, the party is wanted to go the European People's Party, but the EPP's politicans are refused their offer, to let the Jobbik join the EPP European Party Group, and that's why the Jobbik is not Eurosceptic anymore, and changed the ideology to Pro-Europeanism. The Our Homeland Movement party is Eurosceptic, not Pro-Europeanism, said by László Toroczkai, the former Jobbik politican. So, the Jobbik is now Pro-European party, and Centre-Right party, not Far-Right, and not Radical party anymore. I hope the EPP politicans will let the Jobbik join the European People's Party Group. --TomFZ67 (talk) 21:09, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This need some time to be proved and attested, and also reliable sources should describe the party like so, so it needs a bit of time to reflect the claimed transition.(KIENGIR (talk) 17:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there were sources that said (or those that even place the Jobbik on the left of Fidesz):
*Taz (self-declared left-wing): "Even the originally fascistiod Jobbik, which has recently become moderately conservative" (March 2020)
*NZZ: "After the extreme right wing has been split off, Jobbik wants to continue the more moderate course./Her former boss Gabor Vona had given the party a change of course and excluded radical exponents. With the new positioning as a moderately conservative "People's Party"*, he wanted to present Jobbik as an alternative that could be governed and to make the image of a pool of racists and anti-Semites forget." (July 2018)
*Also NZZ: "Hungary's right-wing extremists are refined and now want to be a "people's party". The change of course is also a result of the government largely adopting its positions and rhetoric." (April 2018)
*Welt: "Orbán has recognized where he can still find new voters: in the camp of the right-wing Jobbik party. Today it behaves moderately and has accordingly lost percentages - from 20 to 10 percent of voters' sympathy. This is where Orbán puts the lever in, with topics that are reminiscent of the old, tough right Jobbik." (February 2020)
*FAZ: "If you look at the polls, Jobbik voters are more pro-European than Fidesz. Jobbik is more moderate than before. The right wing voters have moved to Fidesz. Even the extreme politicians who stayed don't represent the same ideology as before." (October 2019)
*Also FAZ: "The Jobbik party, which has extreme right-wing roots but strives towards the center, did not formally support Karácsony, but also did not send its own candidate against him." (October 2019)
*MDR: "In the case of Budapest, several parties had formed an alliance: leftists, liberals, Greens - and a remnant of the once right-wing extremist Jobbik party." (October 2019)
*CDU (EPP): "He had previously won two rounds of voting in the opposition's nomination process and was therefore the only opposing candidate. In this context, it was a crucial political move to unite the entire spectrum of oppositions, such as the new liberal party Momentum, the former right-wing extremist Jobbik and the former green-liberal LMP, behind the candidate." (October 2020)
*SPD (S&D): "The Jobbik party, once oriented to the far right, is now clearly in the political center and, with 22 seats, the strongest opposition party in the Hungarian parliament, did not actively support Karácsony, but did not send its own candidate into the race." (October 2019)
*German term for catch-all and Major party
Braganza (talk) 16:49, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

text: Change of course and becoming more moderate has not been debated. Present here which ideology you'd remove form the current list and/or which you'd add.(KIENGIR (talk) 18:32, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

text: (ViceCity343 is blocked, MShabazz is offline) You have talked about this at #Far-right or right-wing party #Ultranationalism? and you can also offend yourself Braganza (talk) 05:53, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , you should not have edited the page before consensus, I may accept what you edited on the ideologies section (as some views started to get moderate), but not the change of the political position, that anyway includes anything that is right-wing, on the other hand the less frequent ideologies are still what they are (however, the first source is off, it is a personal opinion of Heller with a full bunch of other lies, the third source contradicts it since it declares Jobbik is in fact far-right).(KIENGIR (talk) 17:07, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  There are sources that explicitly speak of centrism or a move towards the center centrist Jobbik, centrist image, inzwischen deutlich in die politische Mitte gerückt, der Marsch von Jobbik in Richtung Mitte, the Hungarian Wiki even goes so far as to say that Jobbik between the center and right-wing is (even if it is not a source, but it says something anyway)After all, there is now the Our Homeland Movement which filled the gap on right and even Sneider who ran against Toroczkai claimed that Jobbik "throw all of the party’s national and conservative ideas out of the window" Braganza (talk) 20:44, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Mitteldeutscher Rundfunk described Jobbik in 2017 as "the once right-wing extremist party, which is currently shifting to the centre":  Viktor Orbán und die Korruption: 
— Preceding unsigned comment added by MatryoshkaNL (talk • contribs) 05:52, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Please check what Centrism means, trying to ship or keep together with is a bit different, as well building and image and carrying it out needs time. Anyway, the Hungarian wiki is not really relevant in this questions. Again, the current political position description covers the paletta claimed.(KIENGIR (talk) 17:29, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

text: Please note, the political position is not equal what the party claims, but how the party is described, which may cause some controversy as well in other articles, though in a way we should converge to the reality and be consistent globally. Per current political events, closer political directives with the opposition, or in spite of the forthcoming election many things couuld be claimed. In time we'll see, this time more of us agree the so-called change is fairly represented by the historical denotion in the ideology section.(KIENGIR (talk) 01:30, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

text: I would change it to 008371 (Background of the lettering of this posters:  Braganza (talk) 20:15, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: That's closer to what I had found as well. --Aréat (talk) 20:27, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  please take a look on these pictures Braganza (talk) 19:01, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

text: , Yes, it seems the party begin to use this turquoise color in their Facebook posts. But I think it's irrelevant here. Standardization is more important, and we use "black" color to represent this party at least since the 2009 European Parliament election in Hungary. A parallel example: since Kurz's leadership, the ÖVP also use a different color (cyan), but Wikipedia kept their original color (interestingly, also black). What if another PR change comes in two years, after the 2022 election? Do we need to change the color code again? --Norden1990 (talk) 10:06, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's what Template:Jobbik (2020)/meta/color is for (like the "new ÖVP" Template:Austrian People's Party (2017)/meta/color)In addition, the party color in the articles of the ÖVP and all elections since 2017 is turquoise (not black)... Braganza (talk) 10:13, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jobbik's new ideology, and new colors 

message: :This need some time to be proved and attested, and also reliable sources should describe the party like so, so it needs a bit of time to reflect the claimed transition.(KIENGIR (talk) 17:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there were sources that said (or those that even place the Jobbik on the left of Fidesz):
*Taz (self-declared left-wing): "Even the originally fascistiod Jobbik, which has recently become moderately conservative" (March 2020)
*NZZ: "After the extreme right wing has been split off, Jobbik wants to continue the more moderate course./Her former boss Gabor Vona had given the party a change of course and excluded radical exponents. With the new positioning as a moderately conservative "People's Party"*, he wanted to present Jobbik as an alternative that could be governed and to make the image of a pool of racists and anti-Semites forget." (July 2018)
*Also NZZ: "Hungary's right-wing extremists are refined and now want to be a "people's party". The change of course is also a result of the government largely adopting its positions and rhetoric." (April 2018)
*Welt: "Orbán has recognized where he can still find new voters: in the camp of the right-wing Jobbik party. Today it behaves moderately and has accordingly lost percentages - from 20 to 10 percent of voters' sympathy. This is where Orbán puts the lever in, with topics that are reminiscent of the old, tough right Jobbik." (February 2020)
*FAZ: "If you look at the polls, Jobbik voters are more pro-European than Fidesz. Jobbik is more moderate than before. The right wing voters have moved to Fidesz. Even the extreme politicians who stayed don't represent the same ideology as before." (October 2019)
*Also FAZ: "The Jobbik party, which has extreme right-wing roots but strives towards the center, did not formally support Karácsony, but also did not send its own candidate against him." (October 2019)
*MDR: "In the case of Budapest, several parties had formed an alliance: leftists, liberals, Greens - and a remnant of the once right-wing extremist Jobbik party." (October 2019)
*CDU (EPP): "He had previously won two rounds of voting in the opposition's nomination process and was therefore the only opposing candidate. In this context, it was a crucial political move to unite the entire spectrum of oppositions, such as the new liberal party Momentum, the former right-wing extremist Jobbik and the former green-liberal LMP, behind the candidate." (October 2020)
*SPD (S&D): "The Jobbik party, once oriented to the far right, is now clearly in the political center and, with 22 seats, the strongest opposition party in the Hungarian parliament, did not actively support Karácsony, but did not send its own candidate into the race." (October 2019)
*German term for catch-all and Major party
Braganza (talk) 16:49, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

text: Change of course and becoming more moderate has not been debated. Present here which ideology you'd remove form the current list and/or which you'd add.(KIENGIR (talk) 18:32, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

text: (ViceCity343 is blocked, MShabazz is offline) You have talked about this at #Far-right or right-wing party #Ultranationalism? and you can also offend yourself Braganza (talk) 05:53, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , you should not have edited the page before consensus, I may accept what you edited on the ideologies section (as some views started to get moderate), but not the change of the political position, that anyway includes anything that is right-wing, on the other hand the less frequent ideologies are still what they are (however, the first source is off, it is a personal opinion of Heller with a full bunch of other lies, the third source contradicts it since it declares Jobbik is in fact far-right).(KIENGIR (talk) 17:07, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  There are sources that explicitly speak of centrism or a move towards the center centrist Jobbik, centrist image, inzwischen deutlich in die politische Mitte gerückt, der Marsch von Jobbik in Richtung Mitte, the Hungarian Wiki even goes so far as to say that Jobbik between the center and right-wing is (even if it is not a source, but it says something anyway)After all, there is now the Our Homeland Movement which filled the gap on right and even Sneider who ran against Toroczkai claimed that Jobbik "throw all of the party’s national and conservative ideas out of the window" Braganza (talk) 20:44, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Mitteldeutscher Rundfunk described Jobbik in 2017 as "the once right-wing extremist party, which is currently shifting to the centre":  Viktor Orbán und die Korruption: 
— Preceding unsigned comment added by MatryoshkaNL (talk • contribs) 05:52, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Please check what Centrism means, trying to ship or keep together with is a bit different, as well building and image and carrying it out needs time. Anyway, the Hungarian wiki is not really relevant in this questions. Again, the current political position description covers the paletta claimed.(KIENGIR (talk) 17:29, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

text: Please note, the political position is not equal what the party claims, but how the party is described, which may cause some controversy as well in other articles, though in a way we should converge to the reality and be consistent globally. Per current political events, closer political directives with the opposition, or in spite of the forthcoming election many things couuld be claimed. In time we'll see, this time more of us agree the so-called change is fairly represented by the historical denotion in the ideology section.(KIENGIR (talk) 01:30, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Position

message: Can you give us a direct link to a source with that new color shade? I can't find it anywhere. --Aréat (talk) 19:30, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I would change it to 008371 (Background of the lettering of this posters:  Braganza (talk) 20:15, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: That's closer to what I had found as well. --Aréat (talk) 20:27, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  please take a look on these pictures Braganza (talk) 19:01, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

text: , Yes, it seems the party begin to use this turquoise color in their Facebook posts. But I think it's irrelevant here. Standardization is more important, and we use "black" color to represent this party at least since the 2009 European Parliament election in Hungary. A parallel example: since Kurz's leadership, the ÖVP also use a different color (cyan), but Wikipedia kept their original color (interestingly, also black). What if another PR change comes in two years, after the 2022 election? Do we need to change the color code again? --Norden1990 (talk) 10:06, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's what Template:Jobbik (2020)/meta/color is for (like the "new ÖVP" Template:Austrian People's Party (2017)/meta/color)In addition, the party color in the articles of the ÖVP and all elections since 2017 is turquoise (not black)... Braganza (talk) 10:13, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Colour

message: The 2018-2022 Jobbik party programme, called "Magyar Szívvel, Józan Ésszel, Tiszta Kézzel" (Hungarian Hearts, Common Sense, Clean Hands), is used on the Hungarian page of Jobbik to claim the party is 'green socialist'. It does include a section on 'building an eco-social economy' (Az ökoszociális nemzetgazdaság kiépítésének szükségessége), which would fit green conservatism more seeming as Jobbik is still conservative but not far-right as it used to be.
Should green conservatism be added to the party ideology infobox, and seeming how in the previous discussion (Talk:Jobbik#Jobbik's new ideology, and new colors) references also state its support for the EU, maybe Pro-Europeanism could be added as well.
MatryoshkaNL (talk) 18:04, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: We can include green conservationism in the info box;but I would wait for the position on the EU because in 2018/2019 (where this transformation process started) it sounded like Soft Euroscepticism, so I would leave it out like with Five Star Movement Braganza (talk) 21:14, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Magyar Szívvel, Józan Ésszel,  Tiszta Kézzel 

message: Now when the party is a necessary tool to get rid of the larger evil which is Victor Orban from a left-wing view point many people on wikipedia share Jobbik is no longer "far-right extremist" but "conservative". Is that really objective or some kind of left-wing propaganda?
93.206.58.139 (talk) 03:58, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: did you saw that there is now Our Homeland Movement? Braganza (talk) 20:29, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  wikipedia spin and framing 

message: The Jobbik is no longer a member of the United for Hungary alliance, said by Márton Gyöngyösi and Ágnes Kunhalmi. Gyöngyösi is said, that the Jobbik is separated from the left-wing alliance, and the Jobbik is going for independetly to the future elections, like the 2024 European parliamentary election, and the 2024 Hungarian local elections. I've edited the United for Hungary page, that the Jobbik is left from the alliance, and they are no longer member of that left-wing alliance. I've writed to the page, the Former parties words. KovZXad1970 (talk) 18:48, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Jobbik is no longer a member of the United for Hungary alliance