Talk:Rape/Archive 5

message: This article needs to feature more pictures.
:Disagree. The picture in use documents the most historically prominent work of art on the topic in the Western tradition. It is sufficient. Posting pictures of sexual violence serves no good purpose. --07:46, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While pictures of sexual violence might not serve an academic interest, an article of this length without pictures is graphically unappealing, and feels low quality. A few graphs of legitimate statistics, maps of legal definitions, or photos of advocacy organization events would go a long way. --Eyrian 08:24, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we need to see some rapes going on with different varieties in graphic detail.86.6.207.111 20:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''MORE PICTURES''' 

message: I went through all the available references in my univ library and tried to show this complicated and politically loaded topic with NPOV balance.  I will note here that politics have no business being included in a scientific section but as we all know politics seems to have ruled this research since Susan Brownmiller began her shameless 'research' on rape for political purposes in 1975 (please see  The New Mythology of Rape: Politicizing Women's Pain).  I welcome suggestions and feedback on this content but please don't make major changes before discussion so we can consense on some sort of complete, balanced NPOV content here.
I deleted content that had nothing directly to do with Causes and tried to balance research on victims with research on perps since both are significant.  I also condensed some statements to aid flow.  That said, there is still a glaring hole with respect to why women rape men/women and why men rape men here...which I would love to have other editors fill with some good content. Anacapa 05:58, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Causes of rape section

message: This article fails to take a neutral tone on several subjects due to someone's choice to use lots of italics to press home a viewpoint. (Random italics added to the previous sentence to give a clear example of what I mean.) It should be reviewed and the italics removed; they serve no purpose other than to add unnecessary connotations to the words.  Wingchild 22:59, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Random italics and unneeded emphasis

message: This entire article looks like it was written from the POV of a victim or a battered women's shelter or similar organization. I think it generally needs to be overhauled to be more NPOV. Hell, it even has sections dedicated to help hotlines, such as RAINN. It also contains about 8 references to RAINN in the article as well. This indicates that someone who is part of that organization has made POV edits to this article. Also, the presence of a large number of italicized words in this article seem to be placed to give emphasis to facts that support a specific POV.
response:
I agree the italics are distracting.  I edit them out when I have time.  I think it is the emphasis on male survivor resources that is creating the emotional tone of the page right now.  However much I agree with exploring male survivor resources I disagree with the way it is being presented in this instance.  On the other hand I think it is succeeding in drawing attention to the matter and making this page grow in a lot of ways (topic wise).  I would never have investigated the vulnerability factors for rape victims if not for the section on causes of rape.  I found it very enlightening.  It also led me to multiple victimization causes which (scientific studies) have found it more likely for a victim to have more than one assault rather than the other way around.  Rather than suspicion it should add validity. 
what bothers me:
I do find that my words are edited to include italics or POV comments that are very negative towards women at times.  I have mentioned this before and appreciate the consideration shown towards those observations.  I also think that if you start a section- you should also start a paragraph in that section instead of leaving it blank.  I prefer not to write a whole section from scratch (as I am better at organizing than writing) but find myself trying to make the page presentable.  Then once I have written the section my words are italicized and POV comments are added.  I think if you are going to do that then you should write the section / or not be destructive to others words.
As to the RAINN references- it is the leading resource on this topic.  That is the reason it is cited.  Because it is a good resource.  It would be negligent not to cite it.  The CDC is also a good resource on this subject and is cited as well. If you would like to see a good example of an Encyclopedia article on rape try Groliers online Encyclopedia.  It is subscription only but you can view it here: http://www.ncwiseowl.org/Groliers online Encyclopedia
Although I would welcome RAINN's input on this article I have reason to believe they in fact have not edited it.  I actually emailed them and asked them to work on the female-male paragraph (bc I did not feel up to it at the time) and they were unable to.  In fact it was empty for so long I finally wrote it.  here is part of their mission statement: "RAINN is a frequent resource for television, radio and print news outlets — as well as local, state and national policymakers, law enforcement and rape treatment professionals — on the issues related to rape and sexual assault. RAINN was founded in 1994 by Scott Berkowitz, who continues as the organization’s president." 
I did not start the sections on helplines but that is a valid part of an article on rape.  When someone mentions the subject the first thing I would mention would be RAINN and their work with the national hotline.  Just as the first rape crisis centers were established by NOW and the women's rights movement- RAINN is an integral part of the subject and recent history of rape.
I should also mention that when i found this article it was recommending (seriously) that all rape victims who cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that their perpetrator is guilty should go to jail.  As an example of this they cited a rape court case which had not yet ended.  I was alarmed at the poor level of information being provided and presumably cited by readers.  Seeing that according to the World Book Encyclopedia only 2% of accussed rapists are convicted- that would mean that 98% of women reporting their assault would go to jail.  I have been reading and contributing to this page for 2 years and the improvement has been amazing.  
--Survivor 20:39, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Point taken, I have thrown out some chaff and removed the POV-tag.  Maikel 20:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: How much counselling or other help is there for people who find that they were conceived by rape or incest? I once read in a women's magazine an article written by a young woman who found (to her great shock) that she had been conceived by father-daughter intercourse (incest). Anthony Appleyard 19:56, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Children conceived by rape 

message: Just started this section.  It is sort of a companion to the victim blame section.  
There are two main types of self blame: undeserved blame based on character and undeserved blame based on actions. These are called Characterological and Behavioral.
Behavioral self blame refers to victims feeling they should have done something differently (therefore they feel it is their fault).
Characterological self blame is when victims feel there is something inherently wrong with them (causing them to deserve to be assaulted). This type of blame is associated with more psychological negative effects.
Self blame is an avoidance coping skill which inhibits the healing process. The type of thought involved in self blame of victims is illogical thinking (known as counterfactual thinking) which can be remedied by a therapeutic technique known as cognitive restructuring. The main problem for victims is that feeling shame (stigma with the self) produces more psychological problems than feeling guilt (actions). It's easier to change an action than the self. Guilt promotes resolving action and shame promotes pulling away or wanting to be invisible. Withdrawing prevents the victim from seeking help and reporting. Counseling responses found helpful in reducing self blame are supportive responses, psychoeducational responses (learning about rape trauma syndrome) and those responses addressing the issue of blame. (Matsushita-Arao, 1997 ) A helpful type of therapy for self blame is Cognitive restructuring or cognitive-behavioral therapy.--Survivor 21:54, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Self Blame

message: I was making a page on my site on types of rape and the one missing here is drug facilitated rape.  I realized it's listed under aspects of rape.  I tried to move it but i think a rapid edit put it back.  I will leave a 'copy' of it here in case.  Do you think it's a good idea to move it?  I don't feel that strongly about it- it just seemed a better category.
===Drug Facilitated Rape===
Hypnotic agents such as flunitrazepam (Rohypnol) and GHB, colloquially referred to as "date rape drugs," have been used by rapists to render their victims unconscious before raping them. According to the Drug Enforcement Administration:
:"Victims may not be aware that they ingested a drug at all. GHB and its analogues are invisible when dissolved in water, and are odorless. They are somewhat saltish in taste, but are indiscernible when dissolved in beverages such as sodas, liquor, or beer."
According to the National Institute on Drug Abuse:
:"Rohypnol can incapacitate victims and prevent them from resisting sexual assault. It can produce "anterograde amnesia," which means that individuals may not remember events they experienced while under the effects of the drug."
The sedative effects of Rohypnol begin to appear approximately 15–20 minutes after the drug is ingested. The effects typically last from four to six hours after administration of the drug, but some cases have been reported in which the effects were experienced 12 or more hours after administration. In recent news it has been discovered that scientists can now detect flunitrazepam and related compounds in urine at least up to 5 days after administration of a single dose of Rohypnol and up to a month in hair.
These drugs are extremely dangerous, and may kill or render the victim comatose. It is imperative that any investigation into the suspected use of date rape drugs involve the immediate carrying out of a blood test, as waiting too long to test for the presence of drugs may cause false negatives.
However, trying to deduce whether date rape drugs have been used from the symptoms is an approach that can cause false positives. In 2003, when the media were reporting a drink-spiking epidemic in Perth, Western Australia, 44 women had their blood tested because they believed they had been the victims of drink-spiking. The West Australian Chemistry Centre tested the blood samples and in these 44 cases, the only substance found in the victim's system was excessive alcohol. Police said that the blood-alcohol level of most of the subjects was significantly higher than what the women had themselves expected.  Although this is irrelevent to the issue of whether an assault is rape or not authorities in some instances say:
:"While we can't dismiss all cases, the results suggest that a fair proportion of drink spiking is just an urban myth ... It seems that a proportion of young women are getting incredibly intoxicated, and using drink spiking as an excuse to explain behaviour they are not happy with." 
However, the legal definition of rape in countries such as the USA also covers a lack of consent when the victim is unable to say "no" to intercourse, due to the effects of drugs or alcohol. In large amounts, alcohol has the same effects as date rape drugs, and causes unconsciousness and memory loss. 
Testing kits that claim to detect GHB, Ketamine and benzodiazepines such as Rohypnol in seconds are commercially available under names such as "The Drink Detective".
--Survivor 02:36, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: moving drugging to the types of rape section?

message: Hypnotic agents such as flunitrazepam (Rohypnol) and GHB, colloquially referred to as "date rape drugs," have been used by rapists to render their victims unconscious before raping them. According to the Drug Enforcement Administration:
:"Victims may not be aware that they ingested a drug at all. GHB and its analogues are invisible when dissolved in water, and are odorless. They are somewhat saltish in taste, but are indiscernible when dissolved in beverages such as sodas, liquor, or beer."
According to the National Institute on Drug Abuse:
:"Rohypnol can incapacitate victims and prevent them from resisting sexual assault. It can produce "anterograde amnesia," which means that individuals may not remember events they experienced while under the effects of the drug."
The sedative effects of Rohypnol begin to appear approximately 15–20 minutes after the drug is ingested. The effects typically last from four to six hours after administration of the drug, but some cases have been reported in which the effects were experienced 12 or more hours after administration. In recent news it has been discovered that scientists can now detect flunitrazepam and related compounds in urine at least up to 5 days after administration of a single dose of Rohypnol and up to a month in hair.
These drugs are extremely dangerous, and may kill or render the victim comatose. It is imperative that any investigation into the suspected use of date rape drugs involve the immediate carrying out of a blood test, as waiting too long to test for the presence of drugs may cause false negatives.
However, trying to deduce whether date rape drugs have been used from the symptoms is an approach that can cause false positives. In 2003, when the media were reporting a drink-spiking epidemic in Perth, Western Australia, 44 women had their blood tested because they believed they had been the victims of drink-spiking. The West Australian Chemistry Centre tested the blood samples and in these 44 cases, the only substance found in the victim's system was excessive alcohol. Police said that the blood-alcohol level of most of the subjects was significantly higher than what the women had themselves expected.  Although this is irrelevent to the issue of whether an assault is rape or not authorities in some instances say:
:"While we can't dismiss all cases, the results suggest that a fair proportion of drink spiking is just an urban myth ... It seems that a proportion of young women are getting incredibly intoxicated, and using drink spiking as an excuse to explain behaviour they are not happy with." 
However, the legal definition of rape in countries such as the USA also covers a lack of consent when the victim is unable to say "no" to intercourse, due to the effects of drugs or alcohol. In large amounts, alcohol has the same effects as date rape drugs, and causes unconsciousness and memory loss. 
Testing kits that claim to detect GHB, Ketamine and benzodiazepines such as Rohypnol in seconds are commercially available under names such as "The Drink Detective".
--Survivor 02:36, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Drug Facilitated Rape

message: The first sentence of this entry is that rape is a "cool ass crime".  WTF?  
I'm strictly a Wikipedia user & don't know how to edit but can someone take a look at this?
Thanks.
Misokitty 23:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "a cool ass crime"??? 

message: :"Several widely publicized cases of female-male statutory rape in the United States involved school teachers raping their teenage male students. One infamous example involved elementary school teacher Mary Kay Letourneau, who had two children with one of her students, who was 13 when she began her repeated rapes."
"Repeated rapes" implies coercion to my ear. I'm not sure that was ever alleged in her case. I think we should be careful when dealing with statuory rape to make sure that we are only attributing coercion in cases where it has been alleged.
::'Repeated rape' is fact in this case.  She was caught, convicted, and paroled.  Within about a month she was caught raping him again and taken away to serve her full sentence of seven? years by the female judge.  There are many kinds of coercion both physical and psychological female rapists usually prefer the psychological and invisible forms (see discussion below) but I am not sure how repeated rapes implies coercion here.  Would you have the same concern if the sexes were reversed? Anacapa 05:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Rape and war go hand in hand. Armies have throughout the ages consisted invariably from males only, and rapes have served a purpose. The rape is used as means of psychological warfare - humiliating the enemy soldiers and undermining their morale as giving them signal of being unable to protect what is valuable to them. Conversely, women as soldiers fight far harder and more cruelly than men and almost never surrender.
This has no citation whatsoever. No doubt there are important things to be said on the connections between rape and war, but this currently looks like original research. There has been much written on rape and war, but this paragraph shows no evidence of having been derived from scholarly literature.
Just two things I noticed while breezing through. --Fastfission 03:55, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Some issues

message: These profiles seem to be relating only to the kind of rapists who go outside and find random victims. This is despite the fact that most rapes are committed by a person familliar to the victim and in the home.
Could someone clarify this??
Silentium 13:43, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The FBI limits rape to forcible rape of adult women by men in its statistics.  Since there are many other types of rape I question how representative the FBI's profiles are.  Is the spousal rapist (male or female) profiled by the FBI for example?  Anacapa 05:31, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Male rapist profiles

message: I've gone through the article and weeded out what seemed to me as unnecessarily large amounts of italicized words in the male rape section and throughout the article. Italics are the visual equivalent of forceful talking, and too much of them adds entirely too much force to the words- in other words, the italics made it seem very non-neutral and foreceful on specific topics. (Not that these topics aren't important! I'm very pleased to see such information on here. I just think that adhering to a more neutral "tone of voice", so to speak, would help facilitate keeping the overall article neutral.) Also made a few quickie grammar edits- punctuation, mostly. Please feel free to let me know if anyone disagrees with the changes I've made. LilTigre 23:01, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconding; a number of italicized words didn't even need to be stressed.  It's not good writing. Adoubleplusgood 02:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quick Edits- Over-italicized areas 

message: Psychologists seem to be divided as to whether repressed memories actually exist, so I made mention of that in the section dealing with incest. Adoubleplusgood 02:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Repressed memories 

message: Looking at those RAINN statistics, I don't see anything about '1 in 3' women being raped, so I'm gonna delete that bit.  If I'm wrong, just change it back. Adoubleplusgood 03:11, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In any way "sexually assaulted" and "actually raped" certainly don't mean the same thing. I wonder how well those statistics are differentiated. There certainly would be a LOT more attention if almost a quarter of all American women were raped in their life. --84.186.189.156 22:30, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rape of females by males 

message: Has there been any discussions about Notable survivors? I think it is important that survivors know that there are people out there who are not only surviving but thriving, but there are a few issues surrounding the list of notable survivors --- like privacy and whether these bits of info are facts which victims can trust.  On this front, If someone other than a celebrity could come out and say that was what happened and the perpetuators of crime do get punished, it would be helpful to victims --- victims of harassment, bullying, peer pressure, hate crimes, personal attacks... It is conceivably less prohibitive for a successful notable person to be open and take actions. Is there any male survivors who has 'come out' and spoken openly about matters that may still be considered taboo? Wklee 00:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable survivors 

message: There is no commonly refered to thing as "gray rape" If you do a google search for "gray rape" you only come up with the expression 5 original times. And two of these times are from this Wikipedia article. Do a google search for violent rape, and you will find over 300,000 hits. Yet, there is no need for an encyclopedic article about "rape" to explain "violent rape" any more than "gray rape." Both terms are self-explanatory. And futher comment is entirely subjective.
Many legal cases fall in a gray area of law.  But just like there is no such thing as gray murder, there is no such thing as gray rape.  There are gray rape cases and gray murder cases.  The Kevorkian murder trials are examples of gray murder cases.  If someone wants to explain what is the meaning of a gray area of law, they should do so in an article about American legal system, not about rape.
* Seconded, but not exactly for the same reasons. Gray rape is not a precise term, it's an intuitive one. It doesn't need to be stated, just like one doesn't need to call rape "violent". These terms are not in common useage among psychologists. (At least, they never were in my college studies. None of my psychiatrist/psychologist/social worker associates have ever used the term. Half of them had never even heard the term "gray rape" before.) Using the term "gray rape" only furthers the concept that rape itself may have some sort of voluntary participation and/or influence by the victim. 
LilTigre 20:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, yes, I did. I thought that was made specifically clear, although my objection is based on useage in psychological and psychiatric circles and not on legalities. If I do see it again, I'll delete it. Also, mind signing some sort of name to your comments? It's a bit strange to talk to someone completely faceless. LilTigre 20:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

text: That works :3 Thanks, Grass.LilTigre 20:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No such special category as "gray rape." 

message: moved from above
I redirected rape to physical humor because I thought the physical humor was supposed to be funny like that.
response:  Has this been fixed? I am assuming the same person wrote 'cool' crime earlier as well. --74.130.65.25 03:14, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There should be a way to track the IP addresses of whatever imbecile is playing with the wiki. Might want to ask a mod about it. LilTigre 20:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Redirect

message: I removed the sub-heading on "violent rape" because there is no officially recognized category in law or psychology known as violent rape. The expression "violent rape" is self-explanatory, and does not need any further explanation. --Grass
The FBI reports ALL rape it defines as 'forcible' male-female rape and excludes all other types and forms (genders) of rape. We might want to make distinctions between 'forcible' and other forms rape here. IMO, the official FBI definition is absurd vis a vis mass media reports of rape and incest by both sexes in a wide variety of contexts some violent and some ostensibly non-violent. Anacapa 05:24, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed: Violent Rape 

message: Why NLU did you revert my edit, "Rape is having non-consensual sex with another"?  The present definition that states there needs to be force for rape to be present seems patently untrue.  There need not be any force in "statutory rape," or raping someone who is unconscious.  Often there is just the threat of force, no actual force. Are you saying if a female willingly has sex with someone because she fears for her life that she is not being raped?   
Michael D. Wolok 01:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  WHY? 

message: Rape is forcing somebody into sexual activity, in particular sexual penetration, against his or her will through use of physical force, threat of injury, or other duress. In just about every country today,
I changed the above first line of this article to read:
Rape is non-consensual sex, in particular penetration of the vagina or the anus. In present times rape is a crime in just about every country.
If you agree with my edit please put my edit back.
Michael D. Wolok 01:54, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's an incomplete definition, which still has the same problem that you complained of (since consent is not a defense to statutory rape), and you also took out the pertinent fact that almost every jurisdiction requires sexual penetration.  In fact, your edit leads to more issues since it takes out the explanation that if consent were obtained by force, threat, or other duress, it is not valid.  --Nlu (talk) 01:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Still wrong, because very few jurisdictions consider forcible oral sex "rape."  I don't know why you are insisting on removing a more accurate definition in favor of your less precise one.  If you disagree, please consider taking it to WP:RFC.  --Nlu (talk) 14:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm going to file a RfC on this, since apparently you don't know how to.  However, I don't see how "that is exactly what [you] said" at all.  You're not acknowledging that "sex" is vague, and that is a major problem.  --Nlu (talk) 23:48, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: RfC has been filed.  Let's see what others have to say about this.  --Nlu (talk) 23:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Better.  But I'd still like to hear what others have to say about this.  --Nlu (talk) 05:01, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please put my edit back.  Thank you. 

message: How is this definition:  "Rape is non-consensual penetration of the vagina or anus.  Sometimes non-consensual oral sex is classified as rape.  Rape is usually achieved by physical force, the threat of injury or some manner of coercion."
or maybe
"Rape is penetration of the vagina or the anus against the wishes of the individual.  It is usually achieved by physical force, the threat of injury or some manner of coercion."?
This is the edit as it stands now: 
"Rape is forcing somebody into sexual activity, in particular sexual penetration, against his or her will through use of physical force, threat of injury, or other duress."
PLEASE NOTE THAT ACCORDING TO THE CURRENT EDIT FORCABLY KISSING SOMEONE OR FORCABLY TOUCHING THEM IN ANY SEXUAL MANNER WOULD BE CONSIDERD RAPE, AS "SEXUAL ACTIVITY" CAN JUST BE KISSING OR TOUCHING THE BREAST OR BUTTOCKS.
I just did a little research and found a 23 year-old woman was convicted of rape for giving oral sex to a sleeping middle-aged man.  Here rape is defined as "a non-consensual sexual act."
Michael D. Wolok 05:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thoughts?  Powers 00:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How is this definition: 

message: "An important part of the history of rape is the foundation of RAINN in 1994 by Tori Amos and Scott Berkowitz. RAINN is central to the modern history of the rape crisis movement as it founded the national sexual assault hotline and provides statistics and information to the media."
I put this back into the history of rape.  RAINN is the leading resource and the leader in the rape crisis movement.  It is a national organization which in fact people rely on internationally (though the hotline is for the US).  It is the crisis version of NOW and the women's movement from the 70's.  It's an important resource as well as an extremely relevent part of history.  RAINN changed everything for rape crisis centers and galvanized the movement.  
--74.130.65.25 00:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RAINN in the history of rape 

message: The following was added as a famous example of rape:
:"One infamous example involved elementary school teacher Mary Kay Letourneau, who had two children with one of her students, who was 13 when she began her repeated rapes."
This is actually an example of "statutory rape" not forcible rape as it implies (the word rape when used alone implies forcible rape
). Whether statutory rape should be treated the same as forcible rape is controversial. Thus I would contend that this incident is not a NPOV example of rape by a female.
reply:
I don't think it is POV so much as it is simply statutory rape - which is a valid type of rape.  You could add the word statutory inbetween repeated and rape.  
--Survivor 23:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see here the beginnings of an age-old debate which has never been resolved...is it possible for a woman to forcibly rape a man? The way this article defines rape, it is incredibly unlikely. Antimatter 06:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mary Kay Letourneau incident 

message: I don't want to start a NEW section on this but thought it might help to open up a discussion on the vocabulary of rape.
#  Stranger rape
-Blitz Sexual Assault
-Contact Sexual Assault
-Home Invasion Sexual Assault
# Statutory rape
# Child sexual abuse and incest
# Acquaintance or "date" rape
# Spousal rape or partner rape
# Gang rape
# Drug facilitated rape
# Communicative or verbal / Virtual reality rape and abuse (such as A Rape in Cyber Space- graphic)
# Forcible touching - intentionally and for no legitimate purpose forcibly touch the sexual or other intimate parts of another for the purpose of degrading or abusing their victim or gratifying the actor's sexual desire.
# Sexual coercion - is defined as any situation in which one person uses verbal or physical means (including the administration of drugs or alcohol, with or without the other person's consent) to obtain sexual activity against consent. ( Adams-Curtis & Forbes, 2004)
# Non-consensual tribadism or frottage.
# Non-consensual cunnilingus.
other types of sexual violence
# Nonconsensual "noncontact - such as voyeurism is also considered sexual violence." (Esposito, 2006)
as well as the types of rapists (i think intent does make a difference in how you communicate 'rape- but perhaps not in the legal sense.  This is more along the philosophical thought line.)
power-assertive rapist, power-reassurance rapist, anger-retaliatory rapist, anger-excitation rapist.
and how they would link to the types of percieved intent of the rapist:
Perceived...
* Intent to humiliate
* degrade
* disempower-----------would link to power-assertive rapist
* intent to punish (power, hate crime)
* intent to control (power)
* intent for sexual gratification
* intent to inflict bodily harm
* intent to terrorize
* sexual exploitation
* shame
* to show ownership of the victim
--Survivor 23:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Types of Sexual assault 

message: > "I would say that a mentally disabled person would need to have relations with someone at their own mental level."
Are you saying someone who suffers mental retardation should only have relations with another person who has mental retardation, and not have relations, date or marry someone who with a normal IQ or a high IQ?  Are you saying someone who suffers manic-depression should only have relations with another person who suffers manic-depression?  Are you saying it is always rape if someone who has a normal IQ has relations with someone who is retarded or vice versa?  You seem to be saying someone who is retarded does not have the right to choose who they wish to have relations with?  You seem to be saying, you don't respect the wishes of a retarded adult female who wants to date and have relations with a young male doctor because they are not at the same mental level?  Should a normal person with an IQ of 180 be prohibited from having relations with someone with an IQ of 100 or everyone who suffers any mental disability?  What if a male has an IQ of 180, but is mentally disabled, does this mean this person can't have relations with any normal female?
> "Having sex with someone who has passed out or clearly too intoxicated to say no is rape."  
Is this true, even if you are married to this person or dating them, and you know they have no objection to your having relations with them while they are asleep?   I don't really think "consent" is the issue, I think the issue is respecting the desires or wishes of the individual.  I think people who are drunk should have the right to choose if they want to have relations or not.  I've known females who couldn't stand to have sexual relations unless they were totally wasted.  Were all men who had relations with these women rapists?  
> "I think if the person is too drunk to give consent it is certainly rape."
This begs the question.  What do you mean by too drunk to give consent?  How drunk is too drunk?  Are you saying anytime a female has relations with a guy who is so drunk he is falling off his feet, she should be prosecuted for rape?  How do you determine if a person is too drunk to give consent?  I don't even know what this means?  Are you saying police should not accept the consent of anyone who is drunk to search their property?
--Grass
Wikipedia is not a place for a debate.  This is in particular the reason why I think we should stick to the legal definition of what rape is, not what it should be defined as.  --Nlu (talk) 05:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this rape? 

message: Wikipedia is not a place for a debate. This is in particular the reason why I think we should stick to the legal definition of what rape is, not what it should be defined as. --Nlu (talk) 05:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't you let Jim Wales speak for Jim Wales, and you just speak for M. Wolok, OK? -lethe talk [ +] 10:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Surely the legal definition of rape depends on the country... - FrancisTyers 13:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I mean not for this type of debate.  See WP:NOT -- specifically, Wikipedia is not a soapbox, which you are turning it into.  --Nlu (talk) 06:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't really looked at the previous discussion, but I can say this: a talk page is for discussing changes to an article, and not for general discussion of the subject. Debates on the subject should be avoided, but debates about the wording of an article are certainly allowed. — TheKMantalk 06:39, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: False.  I did not insert a "word-for-word definition from another website" (which would be copyright violation); I wrote my own based on my understanding of the law (and I've been a criminal defense attorney for more than five years).  --Nlu (talk) 08:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia is not a place for a debate? 

message: See style guide in Lead section:
:The lead section should contain up to four paragraphs, depending on the length of the article, and should provide a preview of the main points the article will make, summarizing the primary reasons the subject matter is interesting or notable. The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, should be written in a clear and accessible style, should be carefully sourced like the rest of the text
At the moment the lead section does not give a preview of the main points, does not summarize the primary reasons and is not capable of standing alone as a concise overview. It goes into far too much detail about one aspect only, namely what is or isn't rape. This level of detail is best covered in the main text of the article. Also it would be much better to use Footnotes rather than external links embedded in the text. See featured article Douglas Adams for example. 
-- Tyrenius 07:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  The lead section tries far too hard to define rape instead of giving an overview of the article.  Discussion of what constitutes rape should be discussed in the article. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 09:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And, as I said way above (just yesterday), it focuses too much on the legal definition, no doubt because Nlu is a lawyer.  I'd like to take a stab at it but there is apparently much rancor here and I'm not sure I want to get involved.  Powers 11:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for comment

message: You need more sources, for example in the "effects of rape" section. User:CameoAppearance  removed "homosexuality" (and not any of the other supposed effects). Try to find verifiable, reliable sources for those items, otherwise people will continue to think most of that shit is just made up. Dabljuh 13:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources needed! 

message: Just fyi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV06Rtnh444&search=rachel%20bilson%20rainn
this is a good psa for RAINN.
survivor--74.130.65.25 22:15, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Video resource (online) 

message: Some of the editors of this page have previously had involvement with Michael_D._Wolok (talk · contribs).  That involvement is mentioned in the RfC I have filed, so you may be interested to see it, help it meet the two person criterion, or otherwise comment. -lethe talk [ +] 14:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wolok RfC 

message: ===male rape===
I just edited almost all of this out of the male rape section and put it on it's own (debated existence) page. Male Rape Research which someone wants to merge back into this page again already, lol.
here is what i deleted so no one gets upset:
"Men, young men and boys suffer rape-related trauma by rape and sexual assault just as female victims do. In addition, due to male socialization to consider all male-male sexual contact to be shameful, to 'be tough and take it like a man' and to eschew victimhood in all its forms, many males who were survivors of male rape choose to suffer in silent shame rather than risk reporting the crime. These victims consider the shame of disclosure and their likely shunning by other males, as worse than the crime itself; a form of double-bind shame similar to the double-bind blame that male-female rape victims often face. Incest by fathers or incestuous rape of male children by adult men in responsible roles is an especially insidious, shaming, and traumatic form of sexual crime against males that has gained widespread national attention in the United States due to the recent Roman Catholic sex abuse cases. Male-male rape often does deep damage to or destroys the survivor's image of himself as a man which may cause him to feel helpless and alone among other men.
When a male is raped (by a male or female) the involuntary physiological response of erection or orgasm cannot be taken to imply that the act was welcomed by the victim. A capable assailant, male or female, can induce these involuntary physical responses in the majority of males with force and/or with deception. Likewise, in incest or incestuous male-male rape, 'voluntary' initiation, 'voluntary' participation, and involuntary enjoyment by the victim, do not imply that the sexual assault is consensual, less loathsome, or less traumatic to the victim. Many people mistake these involuntary physiological effects, falsely, as indications of consent, when in fact the male rape victims have no more control over his involuntary physiological responses than do female rape victims. 
Male-on-male rape does not imply homosexuality. This is a common misperception. People often view the male aggressor as a homosexual, and may think of the recipient as having homosexual tendencies too, especially if he shows signs of sexual stimulation during the experience. Research indicates that the most common form of male-male rape is group rape by other males who rape males who are considered less than 'real' men or latent homosexuals; therefore it is a mistake to perceive the rapists as homosexuals in these cases too. A male rape victim will often experience involuntary erection when forcibly penetrated by rapists of either gender but that does not mean that he is homosexual or that he enjoys the rape. To falsely label a male rape victim 'homosexual' just because his rapist was male can cause the rape victim double-bind shame in cultures where discrimination against homosexuals is rampant."
--Survivor 18:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: edited sections and new pages

message: I just edited almost all of this out of the male rape section and put it on it's own (debated existence) page. Male Rape Research which someone wants to merge back into this page again already, lol.
here is what i deleted so no one gets upset:
"Men, young men and boys suffer rape-related trauma by rape and sexual assault just as female victims do. In addition, due to male socialization to consider all male-male sexual contact to be shameful, to 'be tough and take it like a man' and to eschew victimhood in all its forms, many males who were survivors of male rape choose to suffer in silent shame rather than risk reporting the crime. These victims consider the shame of disclosure and their likely shunning by other males, as worse than the crime itself; a form of double-bind shame similar to the double-bind blame that male-female rape victims often face. Incest by fathers or incestuous rape of male children by adult men in responsible roles is an especially insidious, shaming, and traumatic form of sexual crime against males that has gained widespread national attention in the United States due to the recent Roman Catholic sex abuse cases. Male-male rape often does deep damage to or destroys the survivor's image of himself as a man which may cause him to feel helpless and alone among other men.
When a male is raped (by a male or female) the involuntary physiological response of erection or orgasm cannot be taken to imply that the act was welcomed by the victim. A capable assailant, male or female, can induce these involuntary physical responses in the majority of males with force and/or with deception. Likewise, in incest or incestuous male-male rape, 'voluntary' initiation, 'voluntary' participation, and involuntary enjoyment by the victim, do not imply that the sexual assault is consensual, less loathsome, or less traumatic to the victim. Many people mistake these involuntary physiological effects, falsely, as indications of consent, when in fact the male rape victims have no more control over his involuntary physiological responses than do female rape victims. 
Male-on-male rape does not imply homosexuality. This is a common misperception. People often view the male aggressor as a homosexual, and may think of the recipient as having homosexual tendencies too, especially if he shows signs of sexual stimulation during the experience. Research indicates that the most common form of male-male rape is group rape by other males who rape males who are considered less than 'real' men or latent homosexuals; therefore it is a mistake to perceive the rapists as homosexuals in these cases too. A male rape victim will often experience involuntary erection when forcibly penetrated by rapists of either gender but that does not mean that he is homosexual or that he enjoys the rape. To falsely label a male rape victim 'homosexual' just because his rapist was male can cause the rape victim double-bind shame in cultures where discrimination against homosexuals is rampant."
--Survivor 18:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: male rape

message: I just made this page so presumably the section here can be edited down (but still exist). Please provide a link to the archive of the section in case the page is deleted. 	 
--Survivor 18:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Causes of Rape]]

message: Hi Helicopter,
I am not into wiki arguements but I was totally in shock that you deleted the whole page except sociobiological theories and a couple other sections.  We were working on keeping most of the topics at least mentioned on this page as it is so comprehensive in a good way.  It pulls up first on google under 'rape' so that says it is a good page as is.  Please don't delete the whole page as alot of people worked hard on it. If anything we were working on getting it down to a few sentences per topic with links to new pages on the topics.
thanks, survivor--74.130.65.25 04:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Please don't delete the whole page

message: Is this really the best we can do?  A random statue?  How does that picture even convey the meaning of rape?  They could be dancing for all I know.  James Roberts 23:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to try and get a picture of actual rape through Fair Use, I would be very happy. That sounds wrong.... You know what I mean. I see your point, though - perhaops a blrury montage of an angry man and a firghtened lady? HawkerTyphoon 00:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It depicts the so-called "rape of the Sabine women", and so illustrates the original meaning of "rape", to carry away by force. There are numerous other paintings and sculptures illustrating this usage: Sabines, Europa, Ganymede etc A picture of an actual rape would be wholly inappropriate for obvious reasons. The are paintings, such as Degas's "The Rape" and Cezanne's "The Rape" that are not explicit. Any explicit image will be properly deleted. I don't think an image is needed at all. Paul B 00:56, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, let me refocus my point.  I have nothing wrong with the picture of the statue, I just don't think it conveys much at all especially at the limited resolution/space on the page for the image.  I would suggest either no picture or a picture of some historical text that has some sort of anti-rape law printed.  Thanks for the prompt responses.  James Roberts 01:13, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree that the picture doesn't convey much, but in general I think any picture is better than none, and any picture that actually did convey anything would be inappropriate. DJ Clayworth 19:35, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture at top of article 

message: Currently the only thing we have on the sociology of rape is several paragraphs discussing whether animals rape, and the effects on human evolution. I'm not a big expoert in this area, but surely there must be more than this? What about changing attitudes to rape? My understanding is that some cultures considered rape to be a normal part of the 'spoils of war'? What about slavery and rape? What about 'she was asking for it'? Anyone? DJ Clayworth 19:35, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, we need this article to cover the full range, as it once did before it was turned into a catalogue of victimology and then evicerated. Paul B 11:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Very limited sociology

message: Got here randomly from listing of RfCs on Community Page, but do have some academic background in sexual behavior. Have to say that aside from the first few paragraphs as I found them, which were good, this article is substantially tainted with junk and pseudo-science designed to legitimize or de-stigmatize male on female rape. Just because someone with initials after their name managed to get something published, or posted something on the net, does not make it good science. "Encyclopedic" should mean both "known and recognized as good"   and "comprehensive"; but "known good" should always trump "comprehensive".  The vandalism (e.g. "more pictures") is also out of hand. There is also way too much plain and simple error (e.g. discussion of sex and aggression in other species falls in the realm of Comparative_psychology, not Sociology). I think you need to request major intervention by moderators on this topic. 08:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is a biologial explantion "designed to legitimize or de-stigmatize male on female rape" but a sociological explanation is not? Explanations are explanations, not justifications. Bandying about the terms junk-science and pseudo-science does not help unless you have an argument to support the claim. The field of sociology does include attempts to explain all possible causes of human behaviour in a social context. Disciplines are not rigidly divided, but overlap. Paul B 11:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Didn't say anything about bio vs socio, so don't know where you got that. Sorry, but your ideas about how these disciplines approach the topic are less than mainstream, to put it kindly.  If anything, I think this exchange proves my point. Need intervention (e.g. arbitration) here. NPOV not being achieved here.00:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You were presumably referring to the 'sociobiology' section when you referred to junk-science. If you were not, you should have been clearer. Indeed, you should have a made a specific point aboout any problems rather than mere assertions, unbacked by any arguments or evidence. You have still provided no evidence or explanation of what is "designed to legitimize or de-stigmatize male on female rape" so I made a reasonable guess about what you were actually trying to say, since you seemed unable or unwilling to say it yourself - and apparently still do. Sociobiological arguments are typically opposed by those who prefer to look at specific social dynamics, cultural, or psychological explanations. It might be sensible to read the section above or look at the edit history of this article. Its current state is due to wholesale removal of sections by a previous editor (User:Helicopter). What we need to do initially is restore shortened versions of them to the main article. Also, learn to sign your posts properly. Paul B 10:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See RfC instructions to understand signing convention. Not interested in debate on any topic except what should be in WP articles here. Looking for content that is as universal as possible in terms of lack of geographic, gender, and other biases, can be validated externally, is helpful to the reader and is reliably NPOV. There is way too much here that fails to meet these standards. For sake of something to compare to, I surfed over to the World Health Organization (WHO) pages on Sexual Violence . Material in this and related WP articles should meet similar editorial standards to the WHO material. The purposes of WP are not being served here; although huge amounts of editor effort are being consumed. Moderators: This topic needs intervention! TIA --08:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The RfC instructions are for people submitting RfCs, not for Talk pages, which should be sined with four tildes. See top of page. Paul B 11:39, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: RfC Response

message: It would be good if the page showed the trend, for example, that there are less reported cases of rape every year, or more. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by A Sunshade Lust (talk • contribs) .
: Please sign your posts on talk pages.  What if there is no trend?  Powers 18:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trend 

message: Personally I can't help but think capital punnishment would be the way to go... Or we could put tracking devices on them...a way to know where they are at, at all times. We would have safer communities. --MLF
:Good question, but not the sort of thing Wikipedia is generally going to answer. :) Our goal is to present the information that's already available; novel research and social change really aren't on the menu, I'm afraid. There are quite a few forums out there, that you might enjoy, of course. Have a nice day. Luna Santin 21:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What we should do with sex offenders 

message: The Abuse and Criminal Law templates are taking up a crapload of space on the righthand side of this article, and they leave no room for the lead image.  Placing the lead image on the left (where it is now seems awkward.  Any ideas?  Powers T 23:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Templates 

message: Should the definitions section include a mention of the "affirmative consent" approach? It's been kicked around in academia, and some universities have started to adopt it.  I know it's hard to explain (best I've ever come up with is that it shifts from "No means no" to "Any and every thing other than an explicit verbal yes means no."), but should it get mentioned?  For that matter, the Definitions section mentions a number of legal definitions, with varying degrees of emphasis on force and with varying requirements for penetration: some, it indicates, have no penetration requirement and include unwanted cunnilingus as rape.  Me, I'm used to legal definitions that specify "any penetration, however slight", not that it matters.  Point is, the introductory sentence offers a fairly specific definition; should it be changed to something that better reflects the variety of legal approaches reflected in the definitions section?  Finally, are there non-legal definitions of rape that are important enough to include in the section?  Sort of, I don't know, rape as defined from an ethical or philosophical standpoint, rather than from a jurisdictional statute?  Anyway, tossing those thoughts out.  The Literate Engineer 16:34, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the Definitions Section 

message: Women are equally capable of Rape of Men. Men find it very difficult to come foward if the perpatrator is a Woman. More and More Women are being imprisoned for this offense than ever before - as quoted from the New York Times.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.108.54.30 (talk • contribs) .
:lol, wut? Liu Bei 08:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Male Victims of Rape by Females

message: Seems a good time and place to mention the need of citations thoroughout the article.  
I read this sentence, "Rape is, in most jurisdictions, a crime defined as sexual intercourse or penetration without valid consent by both parties." and was immediately struck by "IN MOST JURISDICTIONS" -- how do we know this for sure?  If possible to gather this thru law enforcement or government statistics, I think it would be benefical for the reader to know just what the percentages are.   
It might be further important to have a supplemental page created that would set out the penal code for each state, then those from Canada and Australia could add their own. This can demonstrate to the residents of each state or province how they compare to others, thus, perhaps, spurring legislations to change the laws.  Years ago, rape WAS defined just this strictly and restrictively, but victims trapped in a netherland of neither this or that were finally brought under the full protection of the law.  --Kiwi--Green in learning mode 10:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Regarding this asseted yet not cited

message: I have removed the following half-paragraph from the Sociobiological analysis of rape section:
:A contrasting view, given by Lewis Thomas in his "The Lives of a Cell: Notes of a biology watcher", rebuts claims that rape is of evolutionary benefit, arguing instead that it is strongly maladaptive, and therefore selected against.  Others dismiss Lewis Thomas' conclusion, by pointing out that what is maladaptive in one place and time, may be adaptive in another place and time.  For example, in certain animal groups females only voluntarily mate with alpha males.  In such an environment, non-alpha males are able to pass on their genes by impregnating females without their consent. Clearly, in animals with this behavior, the genes of non-alpha males who don't participate in this strategy are lost forever, while the genes of non-alpha males who do participate in this strategy are passed on.
I have leafed through my copy of The Lives of a Cell page for page twice without finding the claimed argument. This doesn't conclusively prove that it's not there somewhere, but if it's there it must be as a small aside rather than a main point of one of the essays. The reference is not in the main article, and Google finds no connection between Lewis Thomas and rape outside Wikipedia mirrors. - Then, with the Thomas reference gone the rest of the paragraph just repeat what have already been said, or smell like OR. Henning Makholm 23:25, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed Lewis Thomas reference 

message: WP:EL is very clear about what to link to and what not to link to. An article doesn't even need an external links section unless there's a need to link to "Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article" for various reasons. The external links section was filled with everything from message boards to chat rooms to blogs. In other words, completely unencyclopedic and verboten according to WP:EL. Let's figure out four or five of the most definitive links we could possibly link to, and then do so. wikipediatrix 01:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: Just to show know that sexual aggression is not limited to the male sex,  I pulled in this online piece that shows how some women think about raping men as well.   How to rape a man Notice the usage of "I enveloped him".  I also refer other editors to  to show how  gynocentric 'gender' biases influence the POV about rape in the popular consciousness.  IMO this rape article needs to be sex/gender neutral to be NPOV.  With that in mind I edited a few of the obviously gynocentric statements about 'penetration' in the intro.  Anacapa 19:55, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV Check: How to rape a man 'penetration' versus 'envelopation'

message: The idea that all sexual acts (such as kissing or groping) are considered 'rape' in some jurisdictions seems absurd.   This seems more like a fascist-feminist fantasy where the definition of rape is absurdly expanded to include all sex acts no matter how minor.  Could someone please check the relevant laws here and make sure this is indeed fact. 
: A rough translation to English of the relevant sections of the Danish penal code appears at http://www.interpol.org/Public/Children/SexualAbuse/NationalLaws/csaDenmark.pdf; note in particular Section 224 which defines "other sexual relations" (anden kønslig omgængelse end samleje) to be equivalent to intercourse for the purposes of prosecuring rape, among other sex-related crimes. The Danish original is at http://www.retsinfo.dk/DELFIN/HTML/A2006/0100029.htm. Henning Makholm 21:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV Check: Legal Definitions of rape

message: I do not know how one would do this but could someone please get an editing limitation on this article? 
Maybe registered users only or just something to prevent this kind of vandalism I just removed from the article.
"It is also noted that women have no rights at all and they should just enjoy the experience that is rape"
It is clearly not something right by Wikipedia's standards that I hope we can prevent in the future.  --Jinjinkas 04:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: True, but the preferred method for dealing with this sort of thing is to revert on sight, which you did.  Semi-protection is for persistent and frequent vandalism, which I don't think is the case here.  Powers T 15:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: In its current form, this passage sounds like it's assuming a lot, or like it was written for a rape survivors' support organization website. How can the bit about how the feeling "looms over the survivor" be verified? Do all rape victims react the same way? Can someone provide clarification as to what the "loss of the fundamental need for security" means?
"This loss of the fundamental need for security wreaks havoc on the survivor’s life, causing the individual to feel completely powerless and without control over his or her own body. The feeling of being unsafe looms over the survivor causing a heightened state of anxiety and difficulty with intimate relationships. The victim may attempt to return to normal social functioning (i.e. go out to social engagements), yet may find themself unable to do so. Their attempts to re-establish themself in relationships may be hindered by lack of trust."
Dukie010 09:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Effects of Rape section 

message: I think there should be a new section on rapes that happen during war. Like in WWII, reports of US soldiers raping Iraqi women, etc. FinalWish 05:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Any section on this needs to give some lip service to all the men being slaughtered while the women are being raped and some mention of the asburdity of somehow suggesting that the rape is the central tragedy and that the people killing the men and raping the women are misogynists. Qvkfgmjqy 02:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rape and War

message: Would like info on which groups are more likely to rape and which groups are more likely to be raped, prior relationship, cultural differences, reporting differences, national differences etc. Is this the place for this information? SmithBlue 13:51, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This would probably be the place to put such statistics, if you can find them in a verifiable, respectable source. Which I doubt, but don't let that prevent you from searching for it. Be warned that studies of that kind are rather likely to be controversial, with people disagreeing about whether and how the figures should be adjusted for socioeconomical biases that correlate with ethnic and cultural groupings, and that our NPOV policy requires that such controversy be reported faithfully along with the statistic itself. Henning Makholm 15:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statistical analysis of rape 

message: The definition of rape on the page is incorrect. A woman cannot rape anyone. A man can rape a woman or a man, but a rape is defined as penetration by the penis, if a woman does any non-consensual act it is considered sexual assault by the law. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.192.48.82 (talk • contribs).
:What, in every jurisdiction on the planet?  Somehow, I doubt it.  Powers T 13:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The annon does make a point though, that in quite a few jurisdictions it is impossible for a woman to be convicted for rape. But like Powers then pointed out, this isn't true for everywhere across the planet. Mathmo Talk 10:56, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  True Definition of Rape 

message: No mention whatsoever of the other victims of rape who are those that are falsely accused of rape, when this happens it can absolutely devastate their lives permanently. Thus I tagged this article as biased until it has included the other perspectives of rape. Mathmo Talk 10:54, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is titled "rape", not "accusations of rape". Is it not reasonable for the article to focus its attention on actual occurrences of the phenomenon called out by its title? Slapping a bias tag on the article for this reason strikes me as rather an overreaction. Henning Makholm 11:24, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: An article should mention all relevant aspects of the subject matter at hand, as it currently stands it focusses on   only one aspect of that. I wonder if a title such as "victims that have been raped" would be a better title for the article which is currently written. Looked at the whole article more carefully again and a few other rape articles on wikipedia, and I'm certainly agreeing with the tag somebody put up that this article needs a major clean up to meet wikipedia's standards. The rape article here should be more generic with sections dealing in brief of the various other related pages and appropriate linking to them. And parts of this page here currently should be spun off to form a new page. Wish I could do this myself, but this is a lot of writing it would need to reform it into a more organised format and my current typing speed is very very very slow at the moment (got my arm broken up and in a cast a few days ago). Anyway, at least I've put my thoughts down for others to read. Mathmo Talk 14:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not NPOV, entire article is written from the point of view of victims who were raped.