Talk:Hartford circus fire

message: The link to John Philip Sousa's "The Stars and Stripes Forever" takes me to a disambiguation page, and when I tried to change it to link directly to the March, it didn't work (red link). Can somebody fix this? 24.17.77.57 23:25, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed - worked first time for me :-) Dominic Jackson 14:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: May 2006

message: Was Emmett Kelly the clown a survivor of the fire?  The Wikipedia article for Kelly mentions a famous photo of him trying to extinguish the flames of the circus fire. — Mmathu 02:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Emmett Kelly survived the blaze. The famous photo shows him assisting in the battle against the fire by using water from a bucket, but the fire was already beyond control. Most circus troupers participated in firefighting efforts.  Willow2448 5-30-14  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Willow2448 (talk • contribs) 00:07, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Notable survivors

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Htfdcircusfire.jpg

message: This article contains virtually no in-line citations, many unattributed claims and opinions, and a tone suggesting personal essay/research.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.23.157.102 (talk) 04:32, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: A large section seems to be WP:OR added by User:Beginning in 2004. (It was the first edit after stub article creation.) —Danorton (talk) 02:51, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh goodness, edits from 14 years ago...I'm afraid my memory won't be great on that! Mea culpa; I didn't know any better then. It looks like I used the links section I created as a bibliography. I could probably retroactively cite a lot using the that. I can't get to it immediately, but I'll do my best. Thanks for flagging me. Beginning (talk) 05:30, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Basics

message: I have heavily researched this project, partly alongside Don Massey, author of Matter of Degree, who was my mentor as a young writer working on another fire disaster piece. There is no doubt that he and Davey believe 1565 to be Eleanor Emily Cook. According to a first hand story I heard, Mrs. Cook was far too ill for at least six months to even be told of the fates of her dead son and missing daughter. Mrs. Cook left Hartford for good after the fire, so was not subject to the years of newspaper stories while living in Mass. Even so, she was shown no publicity. Apparently, she became very upset at the mention of Eleanor, and refused to believed she had perished. When she did speak of Eleanor, it was of hope that one day she'd simply show up at the door, as if the Circus Fire did not happen. Apparently, she remained in a deep denial for years. This kept her family from even trying to convince that the carefully-taken photos of the girl buried unburned in Hartford known as 1565 were those of Eleanor. Donald Cook thought 1565 was his sister, and in young adulthood, he tried to claim the body, but was blown off by cops. Years later, Rick Davey spent years trying to nail down 1565's identity. Careful examination of the photos show it certainly could be EEC. Davey compared photos of  her ears, a very unique identifier, and they were said to be an exact match. There was never a positive identification on teeth, because that would require significant work by a forensic dentist, removing the lower mandible to make such.  Looking at the teeth, as O'Nan said happened, would not be enough. This fact is according to one of the same dentists who worked at the site of the World Trade Center attacks and other high-profile cases, Dr. Haskell Askin. As far as being a brunette, every photo of EEC I've seen showed her as at least a dark blonde, and she was described as such. As the story goes, an out-of-town relative who hardly knew Eleanor was the one who made the split-second morgue decision that it wasn't Eleanor, and the coroner stated that he didn't feel the woman was qualified to decide either way. Additionally, from what I remember, and this was years ago, 1565 was unburned, but badly trampled to death, altering her facial features somewhat. When Mrs. Cook was very elderly, Davey and her surviving son showed her the photos of 1565, and she caved, finally agreeing it was Eleanor. That's why the body was exhumed and reburied in the family plot. According to Don Massey, Stewart O'Nan contacted Davey when he was first writing his circus fire book, complimenting Davey's research that led to the discovery of Little Miss 1565. Since a first book contract was already in the works, Davey couldn't legally speak to O'Nan, or share the resources and information he had. According to the story, O'Nan was mad, and added a few harsh sentences about Davey in his book, and making the last sentence something like, "The reason Mrs. Cook never picked up the body was because it was not her daughter."  O'Nan's book was released first, and then Davey/Massey re-tooled Matter of Degree for more than a year to rebut the claims O'Nan made about 1565. If a 2005 investigation was looking into O'Nan's claims, they must not have amounted to much, as a half a decade has passed with no change to the formal identity of 1565 as Eleanor Emily Cook. Since the 1565 section quotes no sources, and disparages the reputations of Don Massey and Rick Davey (I believe it says their work is "revisionist fiction"), an editor who knows how to (I do not) should flag this article as not neutral, possibly biased and unverifiable.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Popartpete (talk • contribs) 05:35, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If that's the case, then who is/was this Sarah Graham that the note on the grave mentioned?  99.149.116.143 (talk) 00:27, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is in O'Nan's book. The notes identifying Sarah and her family were deemed a hoax (or a mistake?) when the other lot numbers mentioned turned out to be already-identified people who didn't match up with the names provided in the notes. --Bluejay Young (talk) 21:12, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

text: there were claims by O'Nan that there were two dental charts but that is not true.  The only other chart would have come from the Cook family dentist, who was out of the country during the post-blaze inquiry and was not subsequently contacted for comparisons. Only one chart exists in the public record, as created by a dentist during on-site reviews of dead victims. These charts were cursory at best, and do not reflect facts known by the Cook family. Such facts include that Eleanor kept all eight of her baby teeth in separate envelopes at home, a fact that conflicts with claims that only a few teeth had erupted...the teeth were already gone, assisting in the proof of age for 1565. Willow 2448 5-30-14//  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Willow2448 (talk • contribs) 00:23, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

text: The public record shows that CT State Trooper Sam Freeman took a hair sample from Eleanor's hair brush to CT forensic analyst Lincoln Opper, whose report stated that hair from Eleanor Cook and 1565 were consistent with each other at the medulla and in color...facts on which Davey relied. Willow2448 on 5-30-14.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Willow2448 (talk • contribs) 00:30, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

text: Don Massey has the original letter from O'Nan to Davey...and he shows the letter to audiences during public presentations, thus proving O'Nan believed Davey knew " more about the fire than anyone." Willow2448 5-30-14  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Willow2448 (talk • contribs) 00:35, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

text: Wait a second, I thought the relative who was asked to identify Little 1565 and said it wasn't Eleanor was Marion Parsons, the aunt who had raised her and whom she called "Mom" (her own mother having sent her & siblings to this aunt while she worked). --Bluejay Young (talk) 21:12, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: 1565

message: The lede says "attended by approximately 6,800 people" but later text says "about 7,500 to 8,700".  Randall Bart    Talk   01:38, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Attendance

message: It is just full of repetition (tautology). No info box. There is hardly a lede, and the so-called "history" section says what is repeated in the other sections. (It's not a history it's what happened) Unless a few hours on one day is substantial enough to be called a "history". Furthermore there are no inline references from reliable third-party sources. So separating fact from fiction is impossible.
This work needs to be done! I don't know anything about this event, so I can't do it but this article is very, very poor at the moment. 
Needs a major shake down from top to bottom.31.52.210.43 (talk) 08:18, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: This could be an excellent but...

message: While not a fan of Davey & Massey's theories, I'm puzzled as to why the book isn't listed in Non-Fiction & Fiction ???  Irish Melkite (talk) 05:20, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: In every publishing listing, A Matter of Degree is listed as nonfiction. The book contains an Index and includes reprints of most key documents, such as NWS weather report, death certificates, hair sample result, death roster, official CSP report by Sam Freeman regarding 1565 identity...to include its second page, omitted from O'Nan's book. This page is key because it states that Freeman saw "four upper second teeth and four lower second teeth" for a total of eight, just as reported by the family to Massey during the writing of Degree. If O'Nan had included that second page, his assertion about the teeth not "matching" would have fallen apart. A true nonfiction writer would have included this data. From willow2448 on 5-30-14.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Willow2448 (talk • contribs) 00:55, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-Fiction & Fiction

message: I recorded an oral history of my mother (judith shapiro) and her recollection of surviving the fire. I have added a synopsis of it to the personal recollection section. Would a direct quote be better? I feel this is worthy of the encyclopedia as it details she and her group evaded the fire. She (7 years old) had to be pushed from the high bleachers by an adult, which provides context around the difficult choices adults had to face to keep their friends and family alive. If anyone feels my posting this herein is in violation of Wiki policies please let me know and I will remove. If there is a better way to make this edit, i'm very open to learning. I have noted within the ref the time code where in the interview the fire is discussed (00:08:23) - again if there is a better way to do that, please let me know.173.54.209.67 Hhawk (talk) 22:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Oral History

message: I put the entire text of William Pond's email in the article because I know how these things disappear from television news websites. If it is not appropriate I will gladly move it to the talk page. It should be archived. BTW the photos from the station house that he burned were copies. The original pictures are safe.
I have serious doubts that nude morgue photos were on display at a public memorial. Probably it was just the famous headshot -- in which she has a white gown. Apparently Pond was a known troublemaker and did this out of spite, according to firefighters at 14, but it's all on a blog and I can't use it. I am trying to find an official, usable source. --Bluejay Young (talk) 21:12, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: William Pond

message: Substituted at 21:43, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Hartford circus fire. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120307182749/http://www.circusfire1944.com/whitetops%20mayjune1991%20pt1.pdf to http://www.circusfire1944.com/whitetops%20mayjune1991%20pt1.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110708155110/http://www.circusfire1944.com/whitetops%20mayjune1991%20pt2.pdf to http://www.circusfire1944.com/whitetops%20mayjune1991%20pt2.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110708155136/http://www.circusfire1944.com/whitetops%20mayjune1991%20pt3.pdf to http://www.circusfire1944.com/whitetops%20mayjune1991%20pt3.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080703173444/http://www.stewart-onan.com/html/the_circus_fire.html to http://www.stewart-onan.com/html/the_circus_fire.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110424085358/http://tarabenwell.com/Tara_Benwell/Novel.html to http://www.tarabenwell.com/Tara_Benwell/Novel.html
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thread_title: External links modified