Talk:Metroid: Zero Mission/Archive 1

message: :Note: This talk page section has been restructured by User:Poiuytman to split this topic into several smaller topics. Some text irrelevant to the discussion (concerning technical editing issues) has been deleted. The talk page before the restructuring can be seen here.
I've reverted the recent changes to Metroid: Zero Mission, Metroid series, and Ridley, which stated that Zero Mission is a sequel. Aside from the numerous in-game similarities to Metroid, Nintendo's site has numerous phrasings that strongly suggest that Zero Mission is a remake:
*Go back to the distant future to explore the full story of Samus Aran's battle against the Mother Brain.
*This February, Samus Aran will return to her roots and relive the story that started it all -- revealing for the first time full details of her meeting with the Metroids
*Samus Aran arrives on Zebes in an adventure that greatly expands on the legendary NES Metroid title.
*Samus Aran's next adventure is a nonstop action masterpiece that puts a new light on the heroine's first visit to Zebes.
--Poiuyt Man talk 8 July 2005 21:52 (UTC)
:The manual for the original Metroid for NES points out that Metroids are a new airborn life form which has just been discovered-- and then stolen by space pirates.  Aside from the obvious marketting as a remake, the first game was the beginning.
:On a side note, I wouldn't mind a "Metroid:  Ground Zero" for Gamecube that remade Zero Mission in 3D :) --User:Bluefoxicy
::Dai Grepher: Nintendo also says this: 
*"The plotline will be familiar to longtime fans of the Metroid series, but the challenges are new, the power-ups are plentiful (taken from several games in the series) and the graphics and sound are supercharged."
*"Sent to Zebes to investigate rumors of a deadly alien species, Samus meets her match in the form of the mysterious Metroids -- energy-sapping creatures that emerge from an oversized cerebrum beneath the planet's surface. Samus isn't the only traveler searching for the Metroids. A band of Space Pirates has touched down to extract the curious creatures and use them as weapons. Samus must thwart the pirates, but they are wily and will prove to be more trouble than Samus expects."
::This is not the story of Metroid. Dai Grepher 05:10, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

message: I know that I said I was done with discussion, but that was before I thought there was nothing else to discuss. There's one more thing, though, that I noticed when playing Super Metroid recently. The ruins of Tourian may not match Zero Mission's Tourian exactly (5th Zeebetite blah blah blah), but neither do they match Metroid's Tourian. Compare:
*:Image:Tourian, Metroid.gif
*:Image:Tourian, Super Metroid.gif
See that? The space between the first and second zeebetite is noticeably shortened in Super Metroid, as well as the platform that you stand on. This might have been done to make the elevator in the next room line up properly with the Morph Ball room, since the pre-chamber room is too far over to the right in Metroid. Also, if you try to scale the two images to match each other, Samus' height isn't the same in relation to the room height, the zeebetites and platforms are higher off the ground in Metroid, and the door is lower in Super Metroid.
The point I'm making is that the room structure was altered for aesthetics and/or gameplay reasons in Super Metroid. There's no reason why the same thing couldn't have been done in Zero Mission.
Also, Dai Grepher, I never really responded to your point about the room under Mother Brain's tank, how it's corroded in Super Metroid, yet spotless in Zero Mission. Here's a reasonable theory:
# After defeating Mother Brain and returning to the room in Zero Mission, green acid is present instead of lava. The green acid is able to damage Samus' Gravity Suit, even though lava cannot. This suggests that the green acid is more corrosive than lava, possibly strong enough to corrode the metal in this area.
# Over the period of time between Zero Mission and Super Metroid, the powerful green acid seeps through the ground, into the secret room, and eats away at the metal. It subsequently absorbs through the cracks in the floor, and into the planet.
# Samus returns to Zebes, and the green acid is no longer present in the room, since it has seeped through the secret room, and into the ground.
I invite you to respond to all of this, Dai Grepher, as you claim the appearance of Tourian is your strongest piece of evidence. --Poiuyt Man talk 03:31, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Poiuyt Man, I think the more telling part of your argument SHOULD be the right-hand side of the pictures respectively.  In Metroid, the picture shows a platform extending over the ground that is the same height as the Zebetite (or whatever it's called).  In Super Metroid, it is not a platform but the top of a wall whose height is less than that of the first Zebetite. Thus the argument can be made without having to hassle to show that scaling the image would not help.  The Missing Link 13:10, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, there are numerous structural differences between areas in Metroid and Super Metroid, yet nobody really questions that they are the same areas. For some reason, since Zero Mission's Tourian isn't identical to Super Metroid's (despite the completely different artistic style, and the 10-year window for new ideas to form), we are supposed to accept that they are different. --Poiuyt Man talk 14:39, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Appearance of Tourian Redux

message: :"Whether you few people believe what I have found is fact or not is irrelevent. The truth is that what I have found are facts that prove a prequel, and both NOA and the director of the game support this fact as well."
The facts are presented clearly on the main talk page, and currently, 9 people believe that they prove Zero Mission to be a remake. As far as I know, aside from The Missing Link and myself, none of them use the VGF forums. It doesn't seem that the consensus is going in your favor.
But from the tone of that first sentence, it doesn't sound like you're interested in the consensus. You have expressed an interest in attaining a non-biased party to assess the situation, so I'm moving to the next step of dispute resolution, mediation. --Poiuyt Man talk 04:24, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dai Grepher: Good. I do not care if their are nine or ninety-nine people that think it is a remake, unless Yoshio Sakamoto is one of them. A majority that disregards the facts is still a majority that is incorrect.Dai Grepher 14:07, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Conversely, a minority that disregards the facts is still a minority that is incorrect. jglc | t | c 14:33, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Dai, the list of mediators is at the top of the page on WP:RFM. I'm planning on contacting one directly, since the request is currently unanswered. Do you have a mediator you would prefer? User:Andrevan has already made a few comments in the discussion — I'm not sure if that makes a difference or not. --Poiuyt Man talk 13:45, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dai Grepher: I will get back to you soon on the mediators I would like to see review this. Right now I would conside Improv to be a good mediator, since his method is for each side to present a summarized argument, and he appears to be able to translate Japanese, which can help in the case of the Japanese website. I will post the other mediators that I will consider for this review some time later.Dai Grepher 19:29, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dispute resolution

message: The unbiased facts regarding this issue are listed in the section below, so the readers can form their own opinions. A poll will be added soon. --Poiuyt Man talk 23:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Zero Mission prequel status

message: This poll is to form a consensus on the issue of whether Metroid: Zero Mission should be considered a re-telling/remake or a prequel of Metroid. Currently, the article states it as an enhanced remake. Currently, the article is ambiguous on the subject.
Before voting, please read the above section, Summary: facts and evidence. Please sign under the appropriate section with four tildes (~~~~), along with any comments you wish to include. --Poiuyt Man talk 05:41, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poll 

message: http://media.nintendo.com/mediaFiles/8fc2b41a-8547-4c17-88cd-cfc5c7ae81a2.mov
Dai: The Zero Mission commercial states that Zero Mission is Samus Aran's first adventure as an intergalactic bounty hunter. Metroid's manual clearly states that numerous missions came before that in which Samus was also a bounty hunter. Therefore, Zero Mission cannot be a remake of a later mission. I'll change the article to reflect this fact. If anyone disagrees then we will move on to arbitration.
For this case I propose that each side compile a presentation of evidence supporting their favored theory and evidence against the opposing theory. I am willing to wait for the remake side to create one, seeing as how there is so little evidence supporting the remake theory and also little opposing the prequel theory. Then when both sides are ready we will present this to the arbitration committee along with this discussion page.Dai Grepher 07:08, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Congratulations, what's it been, two months since you first started this edit war without explaining why it is impossible for Metroid to be retconned? Give me one good reason why they would ACTUALLY say that it is telling the whole truth about Samus' first mission. If a half truth was never expressed, then the way they HAVE phrased it is wrong, under your logic, and thusly, they are wrong. But it is their series, so they are right. So, yes, I bet you'll have an easy time trying to get your POV stated as fact with original research speculating on weak evidence. - A Link to the Past (talk) 08:07, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dai Grepher: It cannot be retconned because if it is then it does not make sense in two separate cases. Zero Mission cannot lead into Metroid Prime story wise or Super Metroid graphic/story wise. Plus, Nintendo stated that this is a new adventure, not a remade one or a retconned one. Why would Nintendo say "it is telling the whole truth about Samus' first mission"? Well, because Zero Mission is telling the whole truth about her first mission. Nothing less true must be said for a statement like this to be made. This is just an expression of the game's accuracy, which greatly diminishes as a remake since it is completely false in that form. Weak evidence? I gave you the official Zero Mission commercial. That counts as original evidence from the supreme authority! Nintendo made the game and Nintendo said that Zero Mission is Samus' first adventure as an intergalactic bounty hunter, which Metroid clearly is not. By reverting the article you have ignored the official source. 
Dai Grepher 17:21, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Look, I've largely stayed out of this and I don't mean to get into this any further than what I'm going to say. One, theres a clear consensus on this discussion page that it is a re-telling. This is open and shut in my opinion. Present new evidence before making a big change to the article again, please. Second, your source of the commercial is flawed. Yes it says "it is telling the whole truth about Samus' first mission", but even if it's a "re-telling" then Metroid: Zero Mission still fits this description. I really don't see your point here. K1Bond007 17:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dai Grepher: There is not a consensus on the issue, and even if there were it does not matter. Public opinion does not dictate what is and what is not a fact. You are abusing the purpose of polls on Wikipedia and you are abusing your privileges. You also say to present new evidence before making a big change to the article, and that is what I did. I presented the Zero Mission commercial here on the discussion page and as a reference in the article. The fact that you did not read or watch it proves your bias in the issue. You reverted without checking for evidence first. My source is flawed? So you are calling Nintendo a flawed source of information about their own games? Nintendo is the only source, and no, the commercial does not say that. You obviously did not even watch it or you would know that the statement "it is telling the whole truth about Samus' first mission" is a side discussion between Link to the Past and myself. The commercial states that Zero Mission is Samus' first adventure as an intergalactic bounty hunter. Metroid shows for a fact that their are prior missions before it in which Samus is an intergalactic bounty hunter. Therefore Metroid cannot be the first adventure as such. You need to read this evidence over before you change articles. If you have a content dispute then post it here like you are supposed to, but do not change the article again or I will have to report you for vandalism.
Dai Grepher 18:06, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Dai Grepher: Well then lets find out what arbitration thinks the article should state, shall we? How much time do you need to prepare your side of the debate? Dai Grepher 19:24, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no debate. ArbCom does not rule on content disputes. Bring it to ArbCom - all we'll need to do is say "there was a clear consensus and we had a straw poll to verify it." Andre (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dai Grepher: That is your entire case? The results of some poll? If so then I will present my case and we will end this. So do not use this as your argument and complain afterward when they rule in favor of a prequel. I think you should consider those on your side and what they feel should be presented before you make such claims. Dai Grepher 20:39, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, we will end this. And we'll be sitting back as you are laughed out of the ArbCom. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:06, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Last chance before arbitration

message: I will no longer be taking part in this discussion until further notice.  Some bad news came to me today about someone I deeply care about that will most likely affect the next several months of my life, and it has caused me to take a very close look at my life and reorder its priorities.  Arguing that Metroid and Zero Mission are one and the same story is not one of those priorities at this time, and for that matter, upholding the integrity of many Wikipedia articles is also not a life priority.  I am going on a Wikibreak of unknown duration as this passes.
Good luck to those still upholding the fight. The Missing Link 05:31, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dai Grepher: I hope and pray that you may have the strength to endure this hardship. However I also pray that this hardship passes peacefully and not have to test the limits of what you can handle. Dai Grepher 19:27, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Signing Out