Talk:Anti-French sentiment in the United States/Archive 5

message: Since this article is such a mess, I started a new (serious) article on Franco-U.S. relations. 172 05:51, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it designed to fully replace this article? Marc Mongenet 23:23, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: As it is now the articles partly mirror each other which I think should be dealt with. Get-back-world-respect 02:02, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: New article

message: One reason this article is so bad, is that no one is citing sources. Note how not a single reference work consulted in the making of the article is listed; one can only conclude none were used. Material that is the opinion of the editors is being asserted by the article as fact. This article is a good example of what happens when the NPOV way of having the article state only verifiable facts is ignored.  ChessPlayer 06:03, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Where, most specifically? David.Monniaux 06:06, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Much of the article is written without citing any source for what is being said. But if you insist on something, the first sentence is simply someone's opinion, not a fact: Anti-French sentiment or Francophobia in the United States is characterized by disapproval of many or all things French. ChessPlayer 06:19, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Closer to a tautology than an opinion. "Circles are characterized by roundness". - Nunh-huh 06:28, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that sentance is not the best, but its not so very bad either. As for references... are you kidding me? Have a look to , where most of them have been moved, and then get back to me on that ;) Sam [Spade] 22:04, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: "France, more strongly than any other nation, sees the European Union as a method of counter-balancing American power, and thus works towards such ends as having the Euro challenge the preeminent position of the United States dollar in global trade." Those are not facts but judgments. I also doubt the explanation "France was accused of particularly ferocious criticism, because it was seen as opposing not because of a disagreement over what to do about the situation, but as a way of opposing the United States for the sake of decreasing the diplomatic power of the United States and building an opposing power movement." and that "fears that expansion of the European Union would be used by the US to keep Europe politically divided" were "long-extant". "Keep politically divided" also implies that Europe had been politically divided before, which is too general, and another judgment, not a fact. Get-back-world-respect 23:14, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You point out some sentances in need of work, I agree. Sam [Spade] 23:52, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Could someone please specify what exactly the neutrality dispute is about so we can deal with it? Get-back-world-respect 03:54, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

text: There have been no replies to the above question for nearly three months so I propose dropping the "disputed neutrality" status of this article. Any comments? -- AdamH 16:17, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: I find it strange that this article mentions de Gaulle's criticism of the American part of the Vietnam war but not that it had all started as a French colonial conflict. And why should his support for Quebec aggravate the US? Quebec is a part of Canada... Furthermore I am not sure why some of the links should be in an encyclopedia, e.g. the silly homophobic joke. Get-back-world-respect 00:06, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know, de Gaulle came to disapprove the French involvement in Viet-Nam and thought that the United States were on the road to disaster there. We may also note that in the end, the French involvement was heavily supported by the US. David.Monniaux 23:30, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

text: Because it was seen as an attempt by a European nation to create a sphere of influence in North America in a country which has historically been the U.S.'s closest neighbor. -- Cecropia | Talk 23:06, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt that the Quebecois wanted independence only to get under French hegemony. Get-back-world-respect 23:25, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: That is your POV however, and even if correct not relevent to the tactical import of a revoloutionary change in a bordering nation. I have read more than one editorial accusing France of just what the article asserts, attepting to excite the pro-independance movement in quebec without truely desiring its success, but rather for the aggravation it was causing the United States. Sam [Spade] 23:54, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

text: To GBWR: Don't you think that people, feeling oppressed, welcome a "big brother" to oppose those who they feel oppress them, figuring they'll deal with any negative consequences "later"? Not to make too fine a point of it, but how many Germans embraced Hitler feeling that what he offered had to be better than what they had? --Cecropia | Talk 00:09, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you writing this because Hitler was Austrian? I think a separatist movement is less likely to look for another hegemony than desparate people looking for someone who builds them highways. Do not ask me in detail why Germans voted for Hitler, I have no idea, just like I have no idea how Bush could fool the US. Get-back-world-respect 00:22, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: This whole discussion is surrealistic, since France never expressed any view of playing "big brother" to Quebec.David.Monniaux 00:33, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The assumption of many in the opposition (probably wrongly) was/is that quebec would enjoy a similar if not even more subserviant relationship with France as that Canada has with the U.K. Sam [Spade] 01:14, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Canada subserviant to the U.K.? Which world do you live in? Cannot see that at all. Get-back-world-respect 01:52, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Vietnam, Quebec and links

message: For a long while now I have been asked why there were not enough references, and now I am suggested there are too many? I think it is best that we keep what we have for now, so as not to require them to be replaced when next they are requested ;) Sam [Spade] 00:13, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not think we should link to every idiot who once made a racist statement. I do not know if the wiki servers would be able to deal with all anti-semite, anti-palestinian, anti-gay, anti-environmentalist or anti-whatsoever links. Get-back-world-respect 00:22, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Links

message: Is it really a joke about France?
What about (from the joke): In fact, the US State Department had upgraded France to exclusive "Flamboyant" diplomatic status in the mid-seventies, above the more ambiguous "A Little Too Friendly" category occupied by Spain and Norway, the "Talks About Clothes Too Much" grouping of Italy and Greece and the "Am I Paranoid, Or Was He Just Flirting With Me?" class of which Portugal is the only member.
For me, it looks like a joke about homosexuality, but I am not sure because I don't find this text funny.:-) Anyway, I don't think this single joke is significant. A list of citations/jokes/insults could be used as a reference, but not a single humoristic text. Marc Mongenet 20:28, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed it. There have been a couple objections, and the page was so stupid and also not funny to me. I searched for something better, but found nothing, so will leave out this widely contested particular. Sam [Spade] 22:44, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Joke about French homosexuality

message: The chapter Popular anti-French insults and allegations mixes accusations (ungratefulness, anti-semitism, bad economy), "clichés" used in political jokes and insults (weakness, arrogance, lazyness) and unused "clichés" (food, flamboyance). Very common clichés used in popular jokes are missing (notably sexuality and hygiene). This chapter should be complete and make clear what cliché/prejudice/accusation is used for what. For instance it should be clear that anti-semitism is used in accusations, while weakness is used in jokes. In particular, the chapter introduction is first about "jokes", then "argumentation", then "accusations". Marc Mongenet 21:03, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: These seem good suggestions. Sam [Spade] 22:45, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jokes, prejudices, accusations 

message: I could say lots of nice things about France and the French people, but I have to give credit to Chirac for something. At the G8 summit all these high and powerful world leaders were dressed casually except Mr. Chirac, who wore a suit and tie. You'd think with these dudes deciding things that will affect millions or billions, they could dress up a little. Way to go, Monsieur! :) -- Cecropia | Talk 19:58, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all I doubt very much that a good dress makes a good statesman, second, this has nothing to do with the article, I suggest to delete this paragraph and to stop writing off-topic. Get-back-world-respect 17:04, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Comments in talk are considered by the great majority of Wikipedians to not be editable by others or subject to the ordinary rules of relevance or NPOV. Most don't even delete all but obscenity even on their own talk pages. I suggest you devote your worry to more important topics. -- Cecropia | Talk 17:46, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest you devote your worry to more valuable things than dumping article talk pages time and again with your personal opinions on off-topic issues. Thanks for your insight. Get-back-world-respect 20:44, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually found Cecropia's story uplifting, soothing, and nonconfrontational (somewhat dissimilar to the response it recieved ;). I wish there were more gentle stories and expressions of personal anecdotes in the talk (as opposed to the article space! :). Thank you Cecropia (that isn't your given name, is it? ;) for your rather uncontrovercial musings re: Chirac. Sam [Spade] 21:50, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Article talk pages are for discussing articles. If you want to chat, use email or chat rooms. Get-back-world-respect 22:25, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saying something nice about M. Chirac