Talk:Abortion/First paragraph/Archive 3

message: If "late term abortion" is the medical term for aborting a viable fetus, then I think the opening should also mention that medical term as well as the common language.  On another note, I googled these phrases (and no others) to see what happened: 
*"aborted fetus" 151,000 hits
*"aborted embryo" 1,060 hits
*"aborted pregnancy" 891 hits
*"aborted the fetus" 527 hits
*"aborted the pregnancy" 517 hits
*"aborting the fetus" 746 hits
*"aborting the pregnancy" 564 hits
*"abort the fetus" 32,900 hits
*"abort the pregnancy" 19,400 hits
*"the fetus was aborted" 283 hits
*"the pregnancy was aborted" 167 hits
*"the fetus is aborted" 412 hits
*"the pregnancy is aborted" 244 hits
In every case the results demonstrate that the most common usage refers to the fetus being aborted (not the pregnancy).  And considering that fetus is generally the preferred term of abortion supporters (and eschewed by pro-lifers), it would seem that it is even the common usage among abortion asupporters.   So, it seems that most people understand abortion as pertaining to the fetus, and secondarily to pregnancy.  After all, at the center of every pregnancy is a unique new little human.  
____G_o_o_d____ 15:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Once again, I fail to see the problem. The common usage definition focuses not only on the fetus, but on the DEATH of the fetus as the defining aspect. --Andrew c 16:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, but I do have a question; can the medical term "late term abortion" include the abortion of a potentially viable fetus; or is Good incorrect? My understanding is "late term abortion" refers to an abortion done between 12-20 weeks. Late but still prior to viability. It may have come from this exchange on his talk page, in that case DonaNobisPacem could help clarify. - RoyBoy 800 17:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I guess it doesn't matter; as Late-term abortion is defined in a different article. - RoyBoy 800 18:05, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not quite sure what you meant by the exchange on G&E's talk page - I mentioned there most medical sources defined late term abortion after 18-20 weeks (when they also define viability to start) - that matches up with the  Wikipedia definition you linked to above... I'm getting confused now - what is the confusion about? DonaNobisPacem 18:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL, about whether defining abortion in a way that leaves out "Late-term abortion" is misleading. I would say no, as they have their own articles. And we can put Late-term abortion in See also section of Abortion to make sure. And as Andrew c points out, commonly Abortion has a broader definition that includes viable healthy fetuses. - RoyBoy 800 19:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: "Late term abortion" only gets 29 hits on pubmed. I wouldn't call it a "medical term".--Andrew c 18:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Late-term abortion gets 76 hits. *shrug* RoyBoy 800 19:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I think that is why I am confused or perplexed by the inclusion of the word "nonviable" for the definition of the broad term "abortion".  I am not convinced, and I have not seen any evidence, that technicaly abortion can only be done to a nonviable fetus.  Perhaps at one time the idea was that no doctor would perform an abortion on a viable fetus.  But we now know that is not true. Again, is it a medical fact that the killing and removal of a late term viable fetus is not actually an abortion? ____G_o_o_d____ 19:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The first definition is the medical definition; not a "broad" definition. That comes after with clarification of common usage of the term. While I acknowledge "Late-term abortion" is a wrinkle in a perfect definition; the proceedure is rare and is set apart from Abortion as Late-term abortion has its own article. - RoyBoy 800 20:17, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Roy: Maybe we should wikilink to LTA instead of IDX? or include both?--Andrew c 20:23, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that is preferable; and clarifies there is a dinstinction. But I'm concerned now about "induce early pregnancy" listed under the procedure. That means late-term abortion doesn't necessarily involve "death" of the fetus. That could force us to stick with IDX. - RoyBoy 800 20:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: G&E:The confusion stems from editors wanting to include the broad, technical, medical term for abortion (that includes miscarriages) in an article that is basically about the "induced abortion procedure (not miscarriages)". We start with the technical definition of abortion, explain it, then move into the common usage and how it relates to human society. Your confusion is trying to make the technical definition fit your conception of what an abortion should be defined as. I believe the way it is written explains this issue clearly, but maybe I'm just used to this wording (and the concepts behind it).--Andrew c 20:23, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - I just don't think an accurate technical definition should exclude abortion of a viable fetus. Regardless of whatever reference we find says, we all know for a fact that a woman carrying a viable fetus can have an "abortion".  Technically, a late term abortion is still an abortion - its just a specific kind, as a chemical abortion is a specific kind of abortion.  No one has really given any good explanation as to why non-viability would be included, especially since I have already posted two medical definitions that do not reference viability.   ____G_o_o_d____ 10:33, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Technically speaking, late term abortions are not abortions (see previous citations). It is not a problem to possibly exclude them from the "medical" definition (besides, they are under 2%. Focusing on them seems to give them undue weight). However, it is explained CLEARLY further down that the common usage of the word abortion DOES cover LTA. If you read the whole paragraph together, I believe everything is explained, and all instances of what a doctor and what someone on the street would call an "abortion" are presented. If we were to remove the "nonviable" aspect, it would make no sense at all to refer to "even viable ones". We'd have to take that part out, and the wikilink to the IDX or LTA articles. --Andrew c 20:32, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What if we change IDX to Late-term abortion? Now that I think about it; it seems odd to have technical terminology in a "common parlance" definition. LOL, did you just suggest that above? - RoyBoy 800 20:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup, and you found that suggestion ;) I think what is meant by "early induction of labor" is that a chemical is injected to kill the fetus, and then the woman gives "birth" to the dead fetus. However, that is complete speculation on my part. Maybe google could tell us more?--Andrew c 22:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah "'Induced labor leads to the fetus dying on its own, often in the arms of its parents,' says Calvin, a member of the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists." There is also  and --Andrew c 22:31, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Indeed, I'm entirely satisfied LTA is preferable to IDX; I don't see any further significant hiccups to implementation of the new lead. Andrew c, I think I can speak for the current consensus that you can add it when you are ready. It was a long time in coming... wonderful job everyone. Another win for Wikipedia!!! Huzzah! - RoyBoy 800 23:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: G&E is perplexed

message: I propose dropping "controversial but rare."
* A mention of a "controversy" should explain what's controverted and who's doing the controverting.  A freestanding "controversy" is meaningless.
* "Rare" is a vague and relative word (relative to what)?  It is a word lifted from debates where one is advocating the right to obtain a late term abortion, or arguing against laws that would restrict such abortions.  The Late term abortion article itself doesn't call these abortions rare. patsw 04:33, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I must disagree.  LTA's are both more controversial than early abortions and much rarer. Alienus 04:42, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Abortions performed when the fetus is viable are estimated to be around 0.08%. Abortion performed after 20 weeks is estimated to be around 1.4%. p. 12 The LTA article is only about a week old and needs work. I personally felt it was important to mention how common abortions with viable fetuses are. Maybe the opening paragraph isn't the best place, and maybe the word "rare" is vague, but I'm not sure dropping the adjectives without replacing them with some other sort of modifier would help clarify things. --Andrew c 06:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

text: The mention of a freestanding controversy is meaningless.  Is the controversy that after viability, the choice made is to deliver a dead corpse rather than a living human baby? patsw 02:26, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a false choice; so not exactly. - RoyBoy 800 02:39, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, I posted the .08% quote. Can you cite a source that claims there are thousands of abortions with viable fetuses each year? If something happens under 1%, I would consider it rare. So clearly abortions on viable fetuses are rare (by my standards). What standards are you using?--Andrew c 06:03, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think what matters here is not percentages, but what medical professionals precisely call procedures on potentially viable fetuses. Do they say "abortion", or something longer than abortion? - RoyBoy 800 06:15, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

text: A rare event in the United States is not .08% and I dispute that number is that low.  If a low number is used, it's 18,000, the actual number is likely 25,000 because of the distortions in the data collection process (i.e. undercounting such abortions by improperly recording the gestational age of the fetus).  Any cause of death above 1,000 deaths should not be called "rare". patsw 17:39, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your POV, but I'll stick with Einstein and everything is relative.  In addition, this an exhibition of why I object to the use of "death".  Patsw equivocates on it as if these deaths are somehow equivalent to the deaths of people.--Pro-Lick 17:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok, so we disagree on what the word "rare" means. .08% is still very low. Why do you dispute AGI's estimate? I agree that there method is a little rough. They make an estimate total number of abortions (because the CDC only covers what is reported, and there are around 13 IIRC reporting areas that do not report). And then use the CDC's proportions for gestational age and apply them to their new total estimate. Do you have any data that contradicts AGI's findings? Are you saying that there is a disproportionately large number of abortions past 24 weeks that are unreported? Do you have proof? Next, you are completely wrong with the 18,000 number. AGI estimated that there were 1.29 million abortions that took place in 2002 (roughly 450,000 more than were reported to the CDC in that year). The CDC's report, which is based on hard numbers, said that 1.4% of abortions took place after 20 weeks. So you take the CDC's hard number, and apply it to AGI's estimate and you get 18,000. The place where you are wrong is that saying past 20 weeks is equal to viability. AGI estimates that there were only .08% of all abortions that actually took place after 24 weeks.  That is an estimate 1032 abortions (probably after viability) out of 1.29 million. Why do you saythat 25 times as many abortions took place after viability than estimated?--Andrew c 04:07, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Thank you very much for this concise summary of points! I tend to talk too much, and I have been a little defensive over this. I apologize to anyone if my frustation has been showing. As for the issue at hand (which should come first). I'll be completely honest here. The primary reason I chose the medical definition first was as a compromise between the death and anti-death folk. Instead of removing the word "death" completely, I moved it out of the first sentence. If we decide to move the common definition to the beginning, I would highly suggest a major rework that, while perhaps still mentioning death, focuses less on the death of the fetus as being the single, defining aspect of what constitutes an abortion. However, I do not feel we should be putting too much energy into inventing our own definitions of terms (like I said above, seems like OR). We should only be reporting what our sources say. Aside from these POV/compromise issues, what is more encyclopedic? Having the technical definition first, or the common? Maybe we could combine the two "while medical dictionaries define abortion as [...], the word commonly refers to the induced abortion procedure that can take place at any time during a pregnacy." Obviously, I'd like to keep the new proposed version we have, but I am trying to work with everyone here. So please, what does everyone else think?--Andrew c 04:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh, and I've been trying hard to find pubmed articles on "late-term abortions". That term really doesn't get used, but then again not many articles cover this subject. Most say something along the lines of "third trimester termination of pregnancy".--Andrew c 04:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your comments illustrate the factual point I have been repeating: abortion is a broad medical term, and it includes even late-term abortions. Medical experts consider everyu successful abortion after 20 weeks to be an "abortion" - they often add the modifier "late-term".  Arguably, the abortion definition used to mention non-viability because no doctor was willing to kill a viable fetus.  But some definitions have not kept current or else do not want to acknowledge the gruesome (and previously unthinkable) reality of abortions that kill viable fetuses. Few doctors want to admit that a professional peer would kill viable babies for money. It makes the profession look bad. And those who do such "procedures" don't want everyone to know exactly what goes on - its a vile thing to admit to. No matter how you slice it, a dead fetus is wicked gross - especially a viable dead fetus that you just killed.  But back to the issue: it is ludicrous to claim that an abortion after 20 weeks is no longer an abortion, but is rightly referred to as [insert some unknown medical term here] (even Andrew C can see that there is scant evidenec that "late term abortion" is the preferred medical term). ____G_o_o_d____ 15:25, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By mentioning that I cannot find the term "late term abortion" (or even "abortion" for that matter) in reference to viable pregnacies being terminated, I am illustrating your point?? How does that work. You just claimed that "medical experts" use the term abortion after 20 weeks. I agree, to a lesser extent, that medical professionals are allowed to use common usages of words. However, prove to me that this is the technical term used in the medical literature. Search pubmed if you want (I've already been there). The fact of the matter is a VAST majority of our definitions define abortion as before viability. Even if this goes against your personal POV, and you feel it is inaccurate, there is NO justifiable reason to exclude this technical definition. In fact, because some editors feel that it needs to be "fixed", my proposal included TWO definitions to cover BOTH POV. I'm just trying to be NPOV, which is to show all relevent POV in accordance to their weight. You are arguing to not include a relevent POV because you feel it doesn't cover what you personally consider an "abortion" to be. How is this not POV pushing? (an aside) Your constant use of emotional, partisan language does not help your argument. I try to read through all that to find your actual point, but it is hard to ignore.--Andrew c 15:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "controversial but rare" 

message: Homestarmy (viability is debatable): I'm under the impression Andrew c was diligent in trying to be as accurate as possible to the actual medical definition of "abortion"; which is about an abortion before 20 weeks or agreed biological viability. (exceptions don't change how they define it)
GoodandEvil (viable fetuses can be aborted): If Andrew c is correct; then doctors don't consider viable fetuses simply an abortion; they consider it a "late-term" abortion. That clearly indicates it is not a standard abortion as they define it. If it were, they would just call it an abortion. No matter how many times this argument is repeated, it merely gets repeated, rather than say... becomes persuasive.
Musical Linguist (prioritizing medical vs. layman): More interesting; and rests on a premise I have pondered during the redefinition discussion. What is the conclusive (if any?) criteria for prioritizing definitions; layman or technical; common or medical; for an encyclopedia or if Wikipedia policy/philosophy differs. Although I find Musical Linguist's rationale flawed and biased (yes language changes, but that should have no impact on our prioritization, as we aren't a pop-culture magazine that changes with the times; we update with the times :"D); anyway I am personally at a loss as to what should come first. I'd really like some illumination on this one; but I suspect that which came first would win out if common sense was the only consideration. Ohhhhh, me likey etymology.
Comments on these subjects are welcome in this section; other comments can go elsewhere.- RoyBoy 800 03:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you very much for this concise summary of points! I tend to talk too much, and I have been a little defensive over this. I apologize to anyone if my frustation has been showing. As for the issue at hand (which should come first). I'll be completely honest here. The primary reason I chose the medical definition first was as a compromise between the death and anti-death folk. Instead of removing the word "death" completely, I moved it out of the first sentence. If we decide to move the common definition to the beginning, I would highly suggest a major rework that, while perhaps still mentioning death, focuses less on the death of the fetus as being the single, defining aspect of what constitutes an abortion. However, I do not feel we should be putting too much energy into inventing our own definitions of terms (like I said above, seems like OR). We should only be reporting what our sources say. Aside from these POV/compromise issues, what is more encyclopedic? Having the technical definition first, or the common? Maybe we could combine the two "while medical dictionaries define abortion as [...], the word commonly refers to the induced abortion procedure that can take place at any time during a pregnacy." Obviously, I'd like to keep the new proposed version we have, but I am trying to work with everyone here. So please, what does everyone else think?--Andrew c 04:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh, and I've been trying hard to find pubmed articles on "late-term abortions". That term really doesn't get used, but then again not many articles cover this subject. Most say something along the lines of "third trimester termination of pregnancy".--Andrew c 04:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your comments illustrate the factual point I have been repeating: abortion is a broad medical term, and it includes even late-term abortions. Medical experts consider everyu successful abortion after 20 weeks to be an "abortion" - they often add the modifier "late-term".  Arguably, the abortion definition used to mention non-viability because no doctor was willing to kill a viable fetus.  But some definitions have not kept current or else do not want to acknowledge the gruesome (and previously unthinkable) reality of abortions that kill viable fetuses. Few doctors want to admit that a professional peer would kill viable babies for money. It makes the profession look bad. And those who do such "procedures" don't want everyone to know exactly what goes on - its a vile thing to admit to. No matter how you slice it, a dead fetus is wicked gross - especially a viable dead fetus that you just killed.  But back to the issue: it is ludicrous to claim that an abortion after 20 weeks is no longer an abortion, but is rightly referred to as [insert some unknown medical term here] (even Andrew C can see that there is scant evidenec that "late term abortion" is the preferred medical term). ____G_o_o_d____ 15:25, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By mentioning that I cannot find the term "late term abortion" (or even "abortion" for that matter) in reference to viable pregnacies being terminated, I am illustrating your point?? How does that work. You just claimed that "medical experts" use the term abortion after 20 weeks. I agree, to a lesser extent, that medical professionals are allowed to use common usages of words. However, prove to me that this is the technical term used in the medical literature. Search pubmed if you want (I've already been there). The fact of the matter is a VAST majority of our definitions define abortion as before viability. Even if this goes against your personal POV, and you feel it is inaccurate, there is NO justifiable reason to exclude this technical definition. In fact, because some editors feel that it needs to be "fixed", my proposal included TWO definitions to cover BOTH POV. I'm just trying to be NPOV, which is to show all relevent POV in accordance to their weight. You are arguing to not include a relevent POV because you feel it doesn't cover what you personally consider an "abortion" to be. How is this not POV pushing? (an aside) Your constant use of emotional, partisan language does not help your argument. I try to read through all that to find your actual point, but it is hard to ignore.--Andrew c 15:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Medical and common definitions