Talk:List of medieval Mongol tribes and clans

message: I have changed Haenisch's orthography a bit (ch->kh, dsch->j, tsch->ch, sch->sh etc.), still, if you think a name is misspelt, edit or discuss it. The list is by no means complete yet, for example all the forest people are still missing. Another thing missing is the differentiation between clans and tribes. Yaan 10:34, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Orthography

message: As far as I know, it's not that clear of which origin the Kereit were. In any case, they were defeated and dissolved. Yaan 17:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well then, better tell that to whoever wrote Kerait... ;) --Latebird 19:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Or are you possibly confusing the Kerait with the Merkit? --Latebird 22:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No. I'm not interested in a discussion about Kazakh propaganda, so I'll leave that Kereit article alone. But that doesn't mean we'll have to take it into other articles. Both new (Weiers: Geschichte der Mongolen, 2004) and old (Grousset: Empire of the steppes, ~1939) sources I have looked into agree that it's not clear whether the Kereit were turcs or not.  Yaan 18:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Let them just source their claim and see what happens... But I still think the "defeated and dissolved" part belongs to the Merkit. --Latebird 18:50, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To correct myself, the full statement in Grousset's work (and it's 1970, not 1939) on p.191 is The Kerayit people are usually considered Turcs. "The legend of Mongol origins leaves no room for them, and it is hard to say whether the Kerayit were Mongols who had been strongly influenced by the turks, or turks who were becoming mongolized. In any event, many kerayit titles were turkic, and Togrul is a turkic rather than a mongol name.". The quote is from Pelliot, La Haute Asie. The Weiers quote is something like Inwieweit die Kereit Türken waren, ist noch nicht eindeutig  geklärt. The Merkit were dissolved too, and probably treated much harsher than the Kereit, but the Kereit also were dissolved after their defeat (Ongkhan had taken part in conspiracy against Chinggis, but ultimately lost) Yaan 19:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kereit 

message: There seems to be some confusion on whether Kiyad is a sub-entity of Borjigin or not. Grousset's Empire of the Steppes, NJ 1970, p.193 (approx.) calls Kiyad a subclan of the Borjigin, but the mongolian terms used are Yasun and Obog. In modern usage, Ovog would be a smaller group than a Yastan (not sure whether Yastan and Yasan are related or not, though). Does anyone know something about this? Yaan 11:13, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's indeed confusing. Some people claim that "yastan" is an artificial term brought by Communism. In fact Obogs are divided into Yasun. Thus Kiyad is a Yasun within Borjigin Obog. As you know, after each 9th generation, they needed to diversify the Obog, thus they created a new branch-yasun name. Thus people of different Yasun within the same obog were allowed to intermarry as 9 generations make their genes different enough. Also there's a term "elken" in the Oirat culture. All Genghisids should be Kiyad-Borjigin. But the Kiyad should also have been divided into sub-groups at the subsequent sets of 9 generations. Does anyone know whether this was the case and if so what those sub-families were? Gantuya eng (talk) 06:29, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kiyad and Borjigin 

message: Is "Barkhujin" a name of tribe or name of a region/river/mountain? Gantuya eng (talk) 07:01, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barkhujin  

message: Aren't these Khorulas, Khorolas, and these Arula, Arulat the same units? Gantuya eng (talk) 09:05, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly. We could treat them just the same way as Adargin/Adarkin. Could you please explain what D and N means, and where the info is from? See you, Yaan (talk) 10:21, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible Duplication 

message: A better classification would be Nirun, Darlekin, Onggu bogul, Oteg bogul, where 
:Niruns are core Monggol tribes and clans
:Darlekin are ??? (includes Bayud)
:Onggu boguls are early vassal tribes and clans of Borjigin
:Oteg bogul are later vassal tribes and clans of Borjigin Gantuya eng (talk) 15:06, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nirun, Darlekin, Onggu bogul, Oteg bogul