Talk:Super Smash Bros./Archive 4

message: The page was 76KB long, so I archived to Archive 3.  --Son 16:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive 3

message: Giga Bowser is a playable character via Bowser's Final Smash Move, so add a yes for him.
-- 13:13, 21 August 2007 (EST)  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.185.171.156 (talk)  
Giga Bowser is Bowser's final smash, but Bowser does not stay Giga Bowser.  On the other hand, Samus becomes Zero Suit Samus for the rest of the match after using her final smash.  Giga Bowser is playable for a short time.--Poketape 22:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nowhere, it's an assumption. It's currently unknown if Samus is able to get her suit back.Satoryu 21:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Giga Bowser

message: Master Hand is a playable character in Super Smash Bros by not using any cheat device, but by a glitch, so i think we should put as a playable character or at least mention him that he is a playable character by a glitch. Solidsonic  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Solidsonic (talk • contribs). 
::You mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CiiDYeOxi0 this? It's fake. -Sukecchi 14:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sign yours posts with four ~. He's using an emulator. -Sukecchi 23:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While an emulator can mean that the game is running with modified memory data, it doesn't mean it definitely is. But regardless, a YouTube video isn't really a good enough source to cite for inclusion of Master Hand as a playable character. Find a reliable source that says as much, and then it can go in. -masa ♫ 13:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Master Hand in SSB 

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research
Putting back any of them on NPC is a theory, based off your personal beliefs.
I also saw someone remove Petey.
What is this guys? You add things to NPCs based on your opinion but remove him off what judgement? 
Premature, rash, and completely unprofessional. Borderline fanboyism here.
--ChibiMrBubbles 19:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A FMV is ingame footage, although it may not be under the player's control. I wouldn't argue for Petey to be up there too much, but there's no proof that he's playable and not just a boss. We do know he's an ally of the Subspace Army for whatever reason, so he could be put with them temporailily. Oubliette 21:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, they're not. -Sukecchi 21:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The entire Subspace Army is up there because we know the Primids can be fought, and the rest is merely detailing their allies. Oubliette 21:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Click here. http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamemode/modea/modea02.html You'll see Mario fighting them in ingame footage.  Oubliette 21:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

text: We could point out that the Primid are led by the Minister and Petey and R.O.B. are just allies, but primarily explain the Primid and their leader's motive. The Wire Frames would have info on their leader instead of remain mysterious, faceless beings if we had this much information on them. Oubliette 21:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Get familiar with no original research 

message: This article is now about seventy percent NPC information.  It's completely unbalanced, it's just being used as an excuse for fanboys to dump in lists of all these pointless minor characters and to have neverending nerd fights over what constitutes a NPC!  There should be one section summarizing that each game features NPCs, and mentioning a few of the recurring themes (giant versions of preexisting characters, wireframe/polygon fighters, adventure mode enemies and Master Hand).  Specific info, like all the new critters from Brawl, should go on Brawl's own page, not all dumped here.
I would try to rewrite it, but I'm sure the fanboys would lash out and revert it two seconds later.  I just wish people would step back a bit and look at this article, and realize how ridiculous it has become.Rglong 21:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's information on the general series. If NPCs appear in more than one game, it's repetitive to list them in the other articles. What we put about the Primid is not speculation by fanboys, it's ripped from the site updates about them. Besides, i'm fine with Mr. Bubbles's suggestion about not putting the Ancient Minister for now. Oubliette 21:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not "repetitive" because those are separate articles.  You can't assume people will read all the articles about a general subject.  And if you're going to stick all this info somewhere, it should be in the specific articles, not all dumped into the generalized article that covers the entire series.  And anyway you're missing the point.  This article has become all about the stupid NPCs.  They should have one or two paragraphs and given as much time as other major features of the series, like the gameplay, or the different modes.  And I never said the Primid stuff was "speculation".  I know the nerdballs are checking the Dojo website every five seconds and dumping everything they find there into the article.Rglong 21:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Following up on what Mr. Bubbles said, I feel that the article is more complete with the NPC section. Parting the two into seperate articles will just cause both to be stubs, and one could be sure that one of those stubs would be nominated for deletion or redirect (or both) within the month. And what do you mean by MGS? O_o Oubliette 22:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Aaagh!  Enough with the NPCs!!

message: I found the extra info on the Fighting Wire Frames, the Fighting Polygons, and Sandbag to be quite informative. Why was it removed? Oubliette 22:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If nothing else, it made the picture alignment appear a lot less broken. Now the Polygon picture is cutting into the Wireframe description. Oubliette 22:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why did we remove so much NPC info? 

message: Does someone have a different definition of "dismissed"?  If a character is dismissed to appear, it would mean they won't be in the game, and therefore should have an X, not a question mark.  Question marks would mean we're not sure if they're in the game. 75.153.231.20 09:43, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are currently no characters being removed from the game. Anything you have read is speculation. So a question mark is correct. -Sukecchi 11:01, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you miss read the note: "Question marks indicate that the character has not been confirmed or dismissed to appear as a playable character in Super Smash Bros. Brawl."→041744 12:43, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Sukecchi, I'm honestly not sure how you could have possibly interpreted my comment that way.  I'll assume you just didn't bother to read it carefully, but let me explain:
If a character is dismissed, it would mean they won't be in the game.  I KNOW no character has been officially dismissed to appear, but let's say Sakurai says "Ice Climbers are dismissed to appear in Brawl".  This would mean that they won't appear in the game.  Therefore, they should have an X in their box rather than a question mark.  It should just say "Question marks indicate a character has not been confirmed to appear as a playable character".  Now do you understand? 75.153.231.20 21:10, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

text: That's the oldest rumor about the game you're talking about, at least initially. It's a rumor from an unreliable source, and it is most likely fake anyway. Disaster KirbyTalk 22:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I still don't see the problem, why should we change the note? To quote you: "Question marks would mean we're not sure if they're in the game.", An "X" means they're 'dismissed'. A question mark is meerly a place holder till we get comformation of their status is Brawl, "not been confirmed or dismissed". What is so wrong with the word "dissmissed"?→041744 23:15, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe our IP friend interpreted the statement improperly. Substituting for the conjunction, you must have interpreted it to mean "Question marks indicate that the character has not been confirmed. Question marks indicate that the character has been dismissed." Should that be the case, you have misinterpreted it. The statement should be interpreted as follows: "Question marks indicate that the character has not been confirmed. Question marks indicate that the character has not been officially dismissed." I hope that clarifies things. You Can't See Me! 23:45, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps substitute "nor" for "or"? --HeroicJay 00:23, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dismissed characters

message: Why were the notes in the PC table moved out of the table?  It 1) looked better in the table and 2) should be in the table.  --Son 11:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. There's no real reason for them to be moved. Or was it too small for someone? I'm editing at 1280x1024 and the text being in the table didn't bother me. Oubliette 11:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The only reason the notes were moved of the table is so the table could be sortable. If the notes were still on the table the note section would act like a regular row and screw up the sorting.→041744 12:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, can we add notes to the bottom of the page, just before/after References? Oubliette 12:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Playable characters table 

message: Shouldn't all of this character information be put into a separate characters page?  64.221.69.200 16:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? There isn't that much. — Malcolm (talk) 16:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, most of the other video game pages I have visited had had separate character pages.  Secondly, the character information on this entry accounts for most of the information in the article and really clutters up the article.  And finally, this is a series page and probably shouldn't have the extensive character coverage that it currently does.  64.221.69.200 17:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is so "Extensive" about the characters section? We have a table for the Playable ad a short few paragraphs for each NPC. Also as this is a crossover game we don't really need a individual page for 30-40 Character links, and as for the NPCs there was once a whole page on it but it was deleted and copied here, so trying to revive that page would just get it deleted again.→041744 20:56, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

text: We don't need anymore images. -Sukecchi 23:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Unless they're of NPCs. Oubliette 14:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Characters Page

message: I've noticed that there is no note listed for the Ice Climbers on the playable character list. Considering that Sheik (for being a Zelda transformation), Zero Suit Samus (for being a Samus Final Smash transformation), and Pokemon Trainer (for being a background character plus 3 Pokemon characters roled into one) got a note due to their unique circumstances, shouldn't Ice Climbers (Popo and Nana) get one too (for being two seperate characters, one human and one CPU, that interact as one)?172.167.70.122 05:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's just as warranted as the rest of the notes. -masa ♫ 06:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Well the name "Ice Climbers" implies more than one person, but this is a valid argument too. Oubliette 14:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there's the fact that "Ice Climbers" always refers to both of them as a unit. Axem Titanium 15:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Switching which Climber is the lead doesn't matter cause they're completely identical. As for their gameplay gimmick, it's just not noteworthy enough. If it isn't on their character page, that would probably be the place to mention it. If we gave the Climbers a note here, we'd have to give everyone a note.Satoryu 17:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconded. Ice Climbers' duality is just as much of a gimmick as Kirby's/Jigglypuff's multiple air jumps. Furthermore, Nana and Popo are not two characters in terms of gameplay. They are just one character with, as mentioned before, a gimmick. ZSS and Shiek are considered separate characters from their base characters by the designers, and Trainer's note is there because of the complexity of his situation. You Can't Review Me!!! 19:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Shouldn't Ice Climbers Get A Note?

message: I don't know if it should remain, but I replaced the "Smash Bros." icon from smashbros.com with the version that has a white background, because the other version doesn't look very clean against a white background. (Both versions come from smashbros.com) --HeroicJay 22:26, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Icon 

message: I don't know if this is appropriate but remember that there are game mechanics in Smash Bros. that don't exactly apply to their original games. These game mechanics are the techniques such as Natural Third Jump (exhibited by Kirby and Jigglypuff), Wall Jumping, Tether Recovery and Gliding. The thing is, these game mechanics aren't part of the series they come from but are made in-game. Couldn't we mention something like it or make a list of which characters could do these Smash Bros. techniques? deecee 09:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An encyclopedia article should not list things, that is why we have one table for all the Playable characters and a list on each page. But still I think it should mention some (not every one) character specific moves.→041744 21:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Smash Bros. Techniques

message: Sonic get a question mark in the list of playable characters characters in since he is rumored even thought its "not in the cards" it's possible isn't it?-Change is coming and potter should have died I might be Trolled and I just don't care 05:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Short answer: No; the long answer is, as is implied, long, and I'd rather not get into the details. If you want those details, I'm sure somebody will respond if you ask why. You Can't Review Me!!! 05:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shouldn't... 

message: Eiji Aunoma has more or less confirmed that Sheik and Ganondorf will be in Brawl. His team apparently did the design work for them, as well as for Link, specifically for Brawl. Two checkmarks for them.Khasrod 20:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty sure that this was already discussed shortly after the interview surfaced. But as things are now, even if Aonuma did 'confirm' them, it's still speculation at this point because of how Aonuma worded his response in that interview (the way he stated things only prove that character designs were submitted). Disaster KirbyTalk 20:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know Sheik will be there, but I don't know about Ganondorf. Although I do wish he would be in the game, I have seen no news of his appearance.--Kondrayus 00:39, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Erm, how are you sure about Sheik? — Malcolm (talk) 00:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sheik and Ganondorf 

message: I Created a diferent article of SSB NPCs to clean the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by Charliefr99 (talk • contribs) 
:And I've speedy deleted it as recreation of deleted material. Please don't recreate it. — Malcolm (talk) 17:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: LIST OF NPCs

message: The list really needs to be converted into prose (either my version or someone can type a new one up). It is fairly pointless to have a bunch of tiny sections when most can be summed up quickly. TTN 17:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, I just tried it. It's longer by a bit less than one kb, but it works, I suppose. You Can't Review Me!!! 20:58, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NPCs

message: Also introduced is the Assist Trophy, which opens up a non-playable character to fight on a player's side for a short period of time in a similar fashion to that of Poké Balls used in all Super Smash Bros. games.
I think that should be reworded because from all the screenshots we seen, the player who summoned said assist trophy disappears from the field. Now I know that saying they disappear would fall under original research, but the sentence itself should be reworded so it doesn't give the impression they are the same like Pokeballs.--ChibiMrBubbles 03:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think they only disappear because the developers left said characters out of the screenshots. Anyways, I agree, it shouldn't be said that it's similar to Pokéballs, as thats original research in itself, it may turn out differently in the future...Dengarde ► Complaints  03:19, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From the info we have now they seem exactly like Poke-balls expect for the characters they summon mind you. You throw it, a character comes out and fights for you, and then it dissappearces of the screen. I see no reason why we can't compare them to poke-balls.→041744 05:26, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

text: All four players appear in Devil's screenshots, so the Pokeball assumption does seem more likely based on our material. You Can't Review Me!!! 08:36, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

text: It is. Nowhere on the site does it say "Exactly like a Pokéball." And the game isn't out yet, so there could be something about them we don't know about yet. Same goes for the Pokéballs too. Saying that they are exactly alike at this point is speculation. Dengarde ► Complaints  15:54, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding the comment about assist trophies 

message: I'm not saying lets get rid of each NPC section entirely, I'm saying that instead of a section for each character we do somthing like this:
;Giga Bowser
:
:Giga Bowser, known in Japan as , is a more powerful version of Bowser who made his first appearance in Super Smash Bros. Melee. He is the "secret boss" of Adventure mode and only appears if certain conditions are met. He is also one of the fighters in Event Match 51, "The Showdown", with Mewtwo and Ganondorf by his side.
:Super Smash Bros. Melee marked the first appearance of the character named Giga Bowser. In this form, he has several abilities that the regular Bowser doesn't and appears far larger and more intimidating, with longer limbs, and a manic looking face. He can be found in Adventure Mode if the player meets certain requirements.
:Giga Bowser has been confirmed to make an appearance in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, when Bowser performs his "Final Smash" attack. Bowser transforms into Giga Bowser, and is near invincible, if not fully invincible, for a short time.Bowser's page on the official Super Smash Bros. Brawl website
Thoughts? Objections? Other propsals?→041744 12:01, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Unfortunately, Giga Bowser seems like the only Smash Bros. series native to apply. As for other NPC bosses that are to be introduced in Brawl (ex: Petey), I doubt they'll need their own section at all. They can simply be placed on the table of NPCs with links to their respective articles or sub-articles. You Can't Review Me!!! 20:13, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They need a section, they're NPCs. The reason we really can't do much with Petey now is because of the amount of information we have on him so far. 72.68.181.58 12:41, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NPC section propsal

message: Someone posted Little Mac as a PC, if I don't don't see a source, it is vandalism.AlexanderLD 19:11, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Little Mac 

message: Should we add FLUDD somehow? in sunshine he is a character, maybe we should footnote it.Wii2-13 12:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No. 1. Its unnecessary. 2. F.L.U.D.D. is just a move. 3. Peach uses Toad and Toad is a character but it is still just a move and no one would think it necessary to add a footnote about it. 4. If we added footnotes about all things like this there would be a whole heap of unimportant information in the article eventually. The Light6 13:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fludd

message: I think the music of the Smash Bros. series should be mentioned in this article and the individual game articles could just refer to this section, thus effectively mentioning music in those articles.  Who thinks this is a good idea? Joiz A. Shmo 22:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope. Definitely not noteworthy enough.Satoryu 01:29, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, can't see any reason why it should be. The Light6 01:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, at the very least, it could link Smashing...Live! with the rest of the series, and could refer to Brawl's new My Music feature. Joiz A. Shmo 04:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the new music announcement is noteworthy as it is a new feature of Brawl. However, it is only noteworthy in the Brawl article. So it should go in the Brawl article if it is to be added. Ixistant 08:30, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Music section? 

message: Lyn isn't a playable character. She's been confirmed as an Assist Trophy character. What's she doing in the list of playable characters?--4.242.21.22 06:14, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Vandals. Happens all the time with Assist trophies and Bosses. It's been reverted. Dengarde ► Complaints  06:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I woulnd't call it vandalism so much as "spontaneous editing prior to checking for accuracy and hidden tags", but the point still stands. It happens all the time, and is reverted all the time. You Can't Review Me!!! 06:18, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whoa, hold on there, cowboy. 

message: Samurai Goroh, Captain Falcon's rival from F-Zero, is a playable character in Super Smash Brothers Brawl as well. --Adam 2:00, 13 September 2007
:No he's not. A yellow tab and a portrait without a gradient signifies that he is an assist trophy. You Can't Review Me!!! 06:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Samurai Goroh

message: Should we get a new image for brawl?The one up now has been around since like the site started,I suggest we get a new one.--DerekDD92 01:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The current one is a rather good image since it has four characters up close. If you feel the need to replace it, though, feel free to be bold. You Can't Review Me!!! 01:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New image?