Talk:AWA World Heavyweight Championship

message: Hulk Hogan never held the AWA title.  This article separates "AWA Superstars" from the traditional AWA.  The traditional AWA never recognized the Hogan title reigns, and they should not be listed.  It's that simple.  Under the "AWA Superstars" column, it might be appopriate to acknowledge that they retroactively recognize the Hogan reigns.  But it is misleading and incorrect to suggest that if you went to a video of the AWA from 1986, you could expect to hear any reference to Hulk Hogan as a two-time former champion.  This is not how AWA history *actually unfolded*.  Not only is it a rather pathetic attempt for a faux usurper of AWA history to get the rub from Hogan twenty years after the fact (or, alternatively, a pathetic attempt by Hogan to up his title reigns to be on a par with Flair and HHH)--- or both--- it is also ridiculously illogical.  The so-called "Dusty finish" happened all the time.  If you recognize the Hogan reigns, then you have to recognize a reign for Sgt. Slaughter, three reigns for Greg Gagne, a reign for Mad Dog Vachon, etc.  
A history ought to record title changes as they were recognized in history.  "Retroactive" recognition is just self-serving "AWA Superstars" politics and violates wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy.
Furthermore, any claim that the current AWA title has world title status is patently false.  Pro Wrestling Illustrated, the universally accepted arbiter of world title status in pro wrestling, does not recognize the AWA as having world title status.  No important blogs regard the AWA title as an important title on a par with any of the WWE titles or even the TNA titles.  The current AWA has no national television exposure, so the claim of worldwide recognition by masses of people of the identities of the current AWA champions is ludicrous.  Some may claim that the title has 'world title status' in Japan.  Japan is not the world.  World-title status should by definition be recognized everywhere in the world.   The world-title status claim is self-serving propaganda asserted by the current "AWA Superstars" regime and again violates NPOV.
:PWI world title status aside, it does not currently have it, this title is also being disputed right now as a successor or even one and the same with the Pre-AWA Superstars AWA World title.  Even though that lawsuit between Dale Gagner and the WWE is still pending, would it make sense for the AWA Superstars and Pro Wrestling Zero-1 MAX title histories to have their own separate page?  To me it seems that if the WWE actually owns rights to the original/real AWA World Heavyweight Championship that there's no way that the reactivation under Gagner's promotions is legal or actually has legit claim to the original promotion's title lineage. TonyFreakinAlmeida 18:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I split the promotion off onto it's own page instead of on the AWA page - makes sense to split this one too, could list the "2 Hogan" reigns on their page. Just refer to AWA SoW in the text & link to that title page IMO.MPJ-DK 07:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have split off the AWA Superstars and Pro Wrestling ZERO-1 MAX title histories to their own page at AWA Superstars World Heavyweight Championship and have gone ahead to each man who has held this variation of the title and changed their links to reflect the switch.  I am probably going to need some sources for the page.  TonyFreakinAlmeida 17:30, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Talk 

message: I have read somewhere that Greg Gagne won and then lost the belt back to Curt Hennig at one point, but these switches, like the Ric Flair-Carlos Colon switches in the NWA, are not recognized. Does anyone have the dates and locations, so that these can be added as unofficial reigns? Thanks. 41.245.158.10 (talk) 13:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greg Gagne 

message: Unless someone provides a compelling case why these instances should be included at the expense of myriad other "title changes that weren't," all references to Hulk Hogan need to be taken out. Regardless of what Dale Gagner would claim, Hogan never was an official AWA World Champion. A challenger apparently winning the title only for it to be overturned on a technicality was a common occurrence in the AWA, in fact it was probably far more common in that promotion than in Jim Crockett Promotions despite the term "Dusty Finish." There is no reason why Hogan should be included on this list and not Michael Hayes, Jimmy Garvin, Billy Robinson, and multitudes of others who "held" the championship for a few minutes, often multiple times. Trying to include every such instance would be an impossible task and even if it were conceivable, this list would be unwieldly long. Unless I receive objections or reliable third-party sources regarding Hogan's claim to the championship, in the next week I will proceed with removing him, along with any other "unofficial" titleholders. PeteF3 (talk) 03:56, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed. Also pulled other similar listings for Tim Woods and Jerry Lawler. PeteF3 (talk) 14:37, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Aaaand reverted. These listings are sourced to the Duncan & Will book, but I still have issues with their inclusion. It wouldn't be terribly difficult to find equally reliable sources such as back issues of PWI or the Observer with a multitude of other non-title changes. Like I said, the AWA ran this finish more than any other promotion did with its main title. Listing all the times that Jimmy Garvin or Billy Robinson "won" the title is a fool's errand. PeteF3 (talk) 05:27, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:BURDEN. Apparently the reigns in question are listed in the current sources provided. However you should also note that a number of "unofficial" reigns in other articles are also listed. This is usually attributed to certain events such as a promotion initially recognizing a reign for a period of time and then retconning the occurrence afterward. For the purpose of maintaining historical accuracy and a neutral point of view we list such reigns and note the promotion's current recognition. Other instances in which some "unofficial" reigns may be listed include, as you put it, the lack of additional reliable third party sources to clarify ambiguous events. --UnquestionableTruth-- 06:55, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem with that is there is no promotion to currently and retroactively recognize Hogan as champion; Dale Ganger's illegal use of the name did not give him any right to the title. The only company that could make that claim is the WWE as they own the rights to the title, but they haven't. So it should be removed. oknazevad (talk) 00:00, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hulk Hogan 

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message: 1) If Hulk won the belt, then it must follow that Nick Bockwinkel won it back from him.  But how?  Both times the belt was handed back on a reversal by Stanley Blackburn.
2) If we're going to include Hulk Hogan (and Mr Wrestling and an earlier run by Jerry Lawler) then how about Greg Gagne winning the belt from Curt Hennig in 1988 only for it to be handed back to Hennig?  If anyone needs a source, there's always the PWI Poll in the July 1988 Pro Wrestling Illustrated. Romomusicfan (talk) 19:57, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hulk Hogan, More problems not mentioned above