Talk:Presidents' Day

message: Of course you give a lot of weight to official names, it just isn't the only determination. When you talk about Theodore or Teddy, you are talking about the same person. If you are talking about "Wimbledon" or "The Championships, Wimbledon"... you are talking about the same tennis event. But celebrating the birthday of our first president compared to celebrating any or all presidents, are two different concepts. They are not the same thing, they just happen to be celebrated on the same date. One is a federal holiday, one is not. One celebrates an individual's birth and achievements, one celebrates a group or any particular person of that group. We really do need two articles since both will be looked up by our readers. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:26, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: There is only one federal holiday on the third Monday of February in the United States, and that is the one this article talks about. It celebrates Washington as well as other Presidents. You could make a new page about the celebration of Washington's birthday aside from the federal holiday, if you know of reliable sources. But that will not change the fact that this holiday is widely considered a celebration of both Washington and other U.S. presidents. —FORMALDUDE (talk) 03:17, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the Federal Holiday celebrates Washington's Birthday.... hence the name of the federal holiday. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:15, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Well that's simply not true. Multiple reliable sources show that the holiday is "most often an occasion to remember all people who have served as president of the United States or simply Lincoln's and Washington's birthdays together." —FORMALDUDE (talk) 04:50, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it is true. People celebrate Presidents Day to celebrate all people who served as president. Some also celebrate Presdents' Day to celebrate Lincoln and Washington only. But the federal holiday celebrates Washington's Birthday. States of course can do what they want, like they do for Columbus Day. States are under no obligation to celebrate federal holidays. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:34, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: There are no sources saying that the federal holiday is exclusively for the celebration of Washington's Birthday. There are multiple sources saying that the federal holiday celebrates Washington and other Presidents'. —FORMALDUDE (talk) 06:04, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The federal holiday is "WASHINGTON'S BIRTHDAY." That's the only name for the federal holiday. Who the heck else would it be for? Shall we celebrate other farm workers on Cesar Chavez's Birthday? State holidays like Presidents' Day is for celebrating Fillmore, Trump, and Jackson... federal Washington's Birthday is for Washington. Why is that so hard to understand? Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:33, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the only legal name, it is not the only observed name, and it is not the definition of the holiday. There is abundandt observation of the federal holiday as being for more Presidents than Washington alone, and sources (such as [2] Washpo and [33] Politico) that verify that. The National Archives explains here "While the name change [to President's Day] has never been authorized by Congress, it has gained a strong hold on the public consciousness to honor all U.S. presidents, and is generally used on calendars, in advertising and even by many government agencies." Its not hard to understand that a name does not always completely dictate the definition of something. ––FORMALDUDE(talk) 06:53, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a name change...another name for the day. And the public also has many sources that say Presidents Day is a celebration of Lincoln's and Washington's birthday and no others. There is Washington's Birthday and there is Presidents Day. And in fact, every calendar I have owned has Washington's Birthday on it. Every one. It may be on the third Monday in February and it may be on February 22, but it's on all of my calendars. This article is about the Federal Holiday. I'm certainly not averse to having a Presidents Day article discussing all the president and Lincoln/Washington. I think we should move on as you will never convince me that Washington's Birthday definition is to celebrate all presidents, and I will never convince you that Washington's Birthday is a birthday holiday for our first president. I know an impasse when I see one. Cheers. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:06, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: , a name change is another name for the day. I think you are weighing your personal view of the holiday over the views in the sources. ––FormalDude talk (please notify me  on reply) 04:07, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't even remotely see it that way. Many days have multiple holidays on them. But Washington's Birthday and a day to celebrate all presidents (not even a birthday of all presidents) will always be two different things in my book. I think there should be two articles to be honest, and nothing really precludes someone from doing that by adding even more background on the history of Washington's Birthday. Presidents Day has multiple meanings. One being a day to celebrate all presidents, which could be an article. One being a day to celebrate the birth of our first president, Washington, which should link to Washington's Birthday. And, one being a day to celebrate Washington's and Lincoln's birthdays, which should have links to both holiday articles. If it changes here it changes here.... nothing I can do about that as I'm sometimes in the minority when it comes to these things. I'm ok with that... it's part of being on wikipedia. But I will continue to believe that I'm correct regardless, because they are not the same thing even though they fall on the same day. And remember something else, and any closing admin should think about this also... February 22 is also a holiday on pretty much every single calendar... Washington's Birthday. My wall calendar has a put out the flag symbol on Feb 22. What if someone wants to make an article on the holiday Washington's Birthday which is celebrated on the federal level on the third Monday in February, but in other places on the actual date of February 22? Sorry but this is just perplexing to me. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:32, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. I am never in favor of having multiple articles on the same subject when one can suffice. Sounds like we just disagree on this one. Sorry for my accusation of you bringing personal views into it. ––FormalDude(talk) 17:21, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: No worries. I'm sure we wind up agreeing way more than disagreeing, but it's only the disagreements that conversation ensues. You do twenty edits I agree with and you hear silence, you do one edit I disagree with and we have to explain ourselves. Wikipedia is a place where anger festers since it's not like arguing with a friend at home where we agree to disagree and can later go out and have a beer and blab about things we like. Cheers. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:10, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Very true. I've seen you around the project and you're definitely an experienced editor who I have a lot of respect for. ––FormalDude(talk) 20:32, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: There appears to be consensus in favor of a move, though that might change with more participation.  However, there has been no discussion of whether it is  or  (or ); a substantial portion of the article is discussion of this controversy.  The move proposal is , but at least one supporter (and one opponent) of a move have used .  To have discussion of this point on the record and to hopefully get a clearer consensus on there being any move, I have re-listed this a second time. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 00:26, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Presidents' v. President's

message: Re : Short descriptions are not definitions, let alone accurate ones. They give context to the title, and should stay below 40 characters. An acceptable SD here would have been "US holiday", but since there is room, we can add a little more info. --Macrakis (talk) 15:35, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no short description policy or guideline. As for this article, it's one of the rarities, containing two different simultaneous topics, both fully explained and incorporated. The Federal holiday (there are only 11) honors George Washington alone, and has since 1879. Some states leave it as is, or team-up with Abe Lincoln. Then others opt for Presidents' Day. For accuracy and weight, seems that Washington should remain in the short description. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:57, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry for the bad link above -- it should be WP:Short description, which as you say is an "information page", not a policy (yet). But I think it reflects fairly broad usage. In particular, defining SDs as providing context rather than definition seems pretty well accepted, as far as I can tell. --Macrakis (talk) 16:59, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Short description

message: Someone created the oddest looking collapsed table in how states celebrate Washington's Birthday, that I removed. I'm not saying it can't be tablized at all with discussion, but not that way, and not collapsed. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:50, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The collapsed table was removed. There is no mess, but because editors decided to change the name of an article about a United States Federal holiday into a nickname, the text requires this to be explained. This is one topic, about one holiday, not two. Since a major holiday has been renamed to a nickname on Wikipedia, it requires that the text mixes the descriptors well and neutrally, and it seems to have done that (by the way, the "On this day..." mention on the main page handled it well, calling the holiday "Washington's Birthday / Presidents' Day", which seems more accurate of a title descriptor than the present name). Randy Kryn (talk) 03:37, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I would have two articles but at the very least the title should show we have two very distinct names that do not have the same meaning. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:42, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Very odd collapsed table 

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