Talk:Irish Volunteers (18th century)

message: The article reads as if these militias were proto-nationalists. In fact (for the pre-Catholic Emancipation times), they were highly non-sectarian, in opposition to those threats to peace and order who would turn into groups such as the Peep O'Day Boys and the Defenders.  Their supporters would turn up both in the Society of United Irishmen and in the Orange Order, and take differing views on the Act of Union 1800.  --Henrygb 17:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That article points that out clearly in its final paragraph. In addition, it's important to understand that in the late 18th century, 'nationalist' did not equal 'catholic'. The first Irish nationlists were protestants. There is also nothing in the idea of Irish nationalism per se, ie that Ireland should be self governing that is sectarian. The volunteers could have been 'proto-nationalists' and 'highly non-sectarian'. The rival sectarian interpretations of nationalism in Ireland developed in the 19th century. Jdorney 12:00, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, much of pre-1900 nationalism was purely republican in nature and non-sectarian.--Vintagekits 12:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My point was the "Irish" here was purely geographical and I don't think the overall article gives that feel.  These militias were mainly about preserving law and order both against political and religious agitators and against criminal gangs.  As for "free trade with Great Britain", this was one of the causes of the Act of Union, a distinctly unrepublican measure.  --Henrygb 16:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By modern standards perhaps, but free trade was an automatic demand of late 18th century republicanism as understood by the likes of Wolfe Tone, in France and America as well as in Ireland. It is pointless to try to ascribe modern politics to a movement that was entirely of another age. Also, I'm not aware that the volunteers were used in a policing role against the likes of the defenders and peep of day boys. To my knowledge their original purpose was to defend Ireland from external invasion while British troops were tied up in America. Jdorney 21:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't speak for the whole of Ireland, but in Moneymore it looked like a grass-roots movement by tenant farmers (Protestant and Catholic) which then sought leadership from local gentry (in that case Scots-Irish Church of Ireland ascendancy), with the aim of protecting their farms. And the early history of the USA is not that of free trade: see for example Report on Manufactures and Hamilton tariff. --Henrygb 22:01, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair point, but Free Trade was certainly part of the republican package understood by the United Irishmen. I can't speak knowledgeably about the grass roots history of the volunteers, but you version sounds plausible from what I have heard. However, it is also important to understand that the volunteers were also a liberal political movement, that was committed to Catholic emancipation, more power for the Irish parliament and an extension of the franchise. 
Jdorney 18:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not to make it an off topic discussion but early history of USA was both of free trade and regulations. Federalists was for regulations. Democratic-republican party wasn't. 81.235.155.135 (talk) 16:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Proto-nationalists

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