Talk:Economics/Archive 3

message: Perhaps it is the perfectionist in me,  but I find the reverse references to "demand and supply" in the article to be strange and a bit jarring.  could we list them as the more typical "Supply and Demand"?  Mrtmat (talk) 19:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe it's an American thing, but I've almost always seen listed order as "demand and supply." Wikiant (talk) 20:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm an American and have always seen "supply and demand" as the norm.  On the other hand, does it really make a difference? Smallbones (talk) 22:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Same here I live in New Jersey and I have always heard it as "Supply and Demand" too. Do other countries have different ways of saying it? I think our way makes more sense though. it has a better flow of the words and a good operational order of the words.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neuhmz (talk • contribs) 15:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, for what it's worth Google Scholar has about twice as many hits for "supply and demand" economics as for "demand and supply" economics, not an enormous disparity but enough to suggest correctly that S&D is the more common usage. Nothing wrong with D&S of course.  --Thomasmeeks (talk) 23:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  strange thing 

message: Templates were recently added to the Economics#Criticisms of welfare and scarcity definitions of economics subsection challenging its compatibility with Wikipedia:Verifiability policy in the lack of cited sources and with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy.  
If the above problems could be fixed, there would remain the Wikipedia:Cleanup problems, including those below.
The first paragraph starts with the 1st sentence (unsourced):
:"The definition of economics in terms of material being is criticized as too narrowly materialistic."
If a definiton includes X in it, how can the definition be "too X"?  It simply is.  
What follows the first sentence about the different marginal significances of $100 to the rich and the poor comes across as a point-of-view straw man, in that the standard definitions of the subject, including  at the top of the article, include reference to distribution.  Still later in the paragraph, the criticism about a definition of economics that is neutral about wants (liquor, cigarettes, etc.) does not require that we need be neutral about those subjects.  But bringing up our possible non-neutrality is just changing the subject, like criticizing a definition of physics because it is unconcerned about a person being crushed by falling rock.  
The 2nd paragraph refers to Marxist economics (commonly described as 'materialist') apparently agreeing with Marshall's definition at the end of the preceding subsection, which refers to "well-being," or anyhow not making clear how it differs from his definition.  (Marshall there by the way explicitly allows for non-material sources of "well-being.") So, what is the point of the alleged Marxist criticism?  The same paragrapn mentions the measurement problem of goods, but that's different from the definition of the subject. So, why take it up in this section?  
The 3rd (& last) paragraph talks about approaches to economics that deemphasize scarcity. How does that constitute a criticism of a definiton?  Isn't it more like changing the subject?  
I propose to delete the above-mentioned section 2 weeks from today if the above-mentioned problems are not remedied. This is not to discourage anyone from attempting to improve the article elsewhere on a related subject.  Comments are welcome. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 19:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 00:37, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with "Criticisms of welfare and scarcity definitions of economics" sect. 

message: in the intro the word economics is said to derive from the attic word oikos(house). but then the passage goes on to say the meaning is
 "rules of the house(hold)."
shouldnt oikos be changed to the accusative oikon, rather than the nominative? (i'm not 100% sure.)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.110.5.21 (talk) 10:25, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  should be accusative? 

message: Who the hell is Warren Gibson? Someone obviously thought that he is so important that his name should be in the article. Well, my grandpa had his own views on economics as well, I still would not just randomly quote him here, would I?
Moreover: Is the mentioned movement really so important already that it should be mentioned here? More importantly: Why isn't there any mention of the frustration with the IMF and Wold Bank politics? In my view that triggered frustration with neo-liberal theory which in turn gave a big push to institutional econmics which was popular even before 2000 (see North (1990) for example).Asdirk (talk) 08:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I put him in there. Obviously the people at Econ Journal Watch thought he was worth mentioning. He has a stronger background in mathematics than most economists, with his engineering PhD and a lifetime of work experience. That gives him an interesting perspective. The relative simplicity of economics mathematics, and the work that it aspires to, has left it open to this criticism by lots of mathematicians, physicists, and heterodox economists – criticism over math is probably the most common criticism of mainstream mathematics. Others have accused economics, particularly financial economics, as being a pseudoscience which aims to deceive with fancy mathematics. The most high-profile of these people have been Nassim Taleb, Richard Feynman, and George Soros. I read a paper the other day where the author (David Colander, I think) said that economists were pretty much laughed out of a conference that they attended with physicists in the 80s (or maybe it was the 90s). I'll see if I can dig that up. The new work in nonlinear mathematics, game theory, and complexity theory is giving them a little more credibility. It is probably best to reference some of the more well-known of these "heterodox economists" such as Geoffrey Hodgson of institutional economics. Similarly, evolutionary economics takes a nuanced approach to their disdain of mainstream economics and the mathematics within it. Pretty much all Austrian economists disdain a lot of the math, although their approach may be less nuanced. It's worth noting that this has nothing to do with frustration with neoliberalism but rather has everything to do with a frustration with using oversimplified models and linear mathematics to describe a complex system. II | (t - c) 17:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

text: The Gibson quote is bunk. There are many economists who have degrees in engineering and mathematics. Quoting Gibson (as a graduate student no less) smacks of POV. Similarly, quoting Feynman and Soros is questionable as neither are economists. This whole paragraph reads like someone is grinding axes. Wikiant (talk) 18:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought the Gibson quote was neat, but it could easily be replaced by other comments from economists such as Mark Blaug, Hodsgon, Tony Lawson, or a number of others. Even Nobel Laureate George Akerlof has a discussion out on the web where he mentions that he had difficulty publishing the paper on lemons which won him his Nobel Prize because it was not quantitative enough. Anyway, give me a couple days and I'll put someone more prestigious in there. II | (t - c) 18:38, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

text: The "Preoccupation with mathematics" section is OK, better at least than the other parts of "criticism" in the article. The section does capture a strong sentiment by some economists. Oddly, I think II above gives the wrong impression. The problem as seen by many is that the field of economics can be too sophisticated mathematically, and so blind itself to what it's really supposed to mean. So, the criticism is real, probably a significant minority in the field (I suspect it might be a majority among those who really think about such things). If the references cited aren't the best, then better ones should be found, but they're good enough to hold the section up. (Regarding Gibson, I haven't read the article. It makes some sense to have a current grad student comment on this, so there's a plus to go along with the minus of lack of prominence. EJW is a new and somewhat experimental journal, so I would prefer citations from other journals, but this one's good enough.) Cretog8 (talk) 18:45, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Have any of you read, or even skimmed, any of the 4 articles referenced in that section? The best one is the first one by Hodgson; please glance through it before deleting it. Anyway, I certainly don't think the problem is that the mathematics in economics is too sophisticated -- the argument is that it is not sophisticated enough, and can never be sophisticated enough. It requires a closed, linear system, when the economy is not really a closed. However, if it was too sophisticated for economists to understand, then that would place considerable doubt on its veracity. Read Hodgson's paper referenced in that section -- the new paradigm for economics is the biological, not the physical/engineering. He's got quotes from Kenneth Arrow and Hahn backing up this sentiment. The other problem is that an obsession with mathematics leaves the real-world completely absent -- again, all the 4 papers referenced in that section hit on this explicitly, but I can find plenty more, and I see this in most economics papers that I read. They go through all the technique, but when it comes to application, there's little there. Not long ago I read a paper on insider trading in 9/11 where the Prof showed that statistically the level of trading suggested insider trading, and concluded just that -- but neglected to point out that the US gov't had investigated all of the trading that had happened and found no evidence of insider trading. I certainly don't think mathematics can or should be ignored, but the trust in it is clearly mislaid. There is a reason that economists have never forecast a recession, and are likely the most notorious "liars with statistics". There is some truth, also, to the old "assume a can-opener" joke. Also, here is Akerlof on his "The Market for Lemons" paper, which I assume all of you have heard of. It was rejected 3 times for being on a "trivial" subject. Notably, Tversky and Kahneman's studies also involve very little math. II | (t - c) 19:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Preoccupation with mathematics: Warren Gibson and frustration with neo-liberalism among economists (as opposed to leftist anti-economics propaganda) 

message: For interested parties as to an expansion of who, why, what, and so forth from previous thread.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_%28bureaucratic%29#The_technocratic_instinct_among_engineers_and_its_outcomes
skip sievert (talk) 22:26, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another link to ponder 

message: Added some information about the Physiocrats near the beginning section (Politics economics and culture) section. The Physiocrats were a group of economists who believed that the wealth of nations was derived solely from the value of land agriculture or land development.(citation) Their theories originated in France and were most popular during the second half of the 18th century. The movement was particularly dominated by Anne-Robert-Jacques Turgot (1727–1781) and François Quesnay (1694–1774). It immediately preceded the first modern school, classical economics, which began with the publication of Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations in 1776. This in conjunction with Adam Smith section information fleshes out a little more the history of modern economics, I hope. skip sievert (talk) 00:17, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: May I welcome skipsievert. Arguments against the above paragraph on  Physiocrats include these.  
# The paragraph is likely to discourage further  reading by those interested in the subject today (most readers, I believe), whereas they might be more interested in history after they learned more about econ (per above at Talk:Economics#Reorganized a few sections, end, [3a-b] ). 
# By contrast to the Physiorats paragraph the Adam Smith quotation in that section complements the definitions at the top of the Lead,  provides a standard for the rest of the article, and demonstrates the continuity of the subject of econ ever after Smith. Such continuity can hardly be described as "history" if it does not change.  Inclusion of the Physiocrats  paragraph is likely to dull parasitically the effect  of  the Smith quotation if placed last and lessen interest in the the Smith  quotation if placed in chronological order. Reader motivation is especially important at the beginning of the article. 
# The Physiocrats paragraph makes the section more a mini-history. There is  already a history section later in the article, making a mini-history redundant. Comments welcome. –Thomasmeeks (talk) 23:22, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Removing historically accurate and concise information that is cited and short, is not really beneficial to an understanding of this subject . Smith endorsed the Physiocrats to a large degree.. and no one can deny their importance. The cited information points that out. There seems to be a concerted effort to keep the article less well rounded, and to exaggerate Smith... as the end all and be all. You also removed the link to classical economics that was in that short section .. which defeats the purpose of letting people get an all around economics understanding right at the beginning (That article is mostly about Smith.)
* Why would important information discourage further reading? Smith is history and is tied up with the Physiocrats whom he commented on positively. The Physiocrats set the scene for Smith. 
* Inclusion of the Physiocrats  paragraph is likely to dull parasitically the effect  of  the Smith quotation if placed last and lessen interest in the the Smith  quotation if placed in chronological order. - Sorry, but is this an advertisement for Smith, or is this an information article? Last time I checked reader motivation is not determined by a discussion of supposed parasite editing placement as this editor is accusing this edit of being. Is Smith a god here that must be treated like a Guru of economics?  After all, who ever wrote the rather lame lead before for that section .... In the beginning ??? .. what were they thinking?? That neutral point of view? The Physiocrats, the precursors of Smith should be mentioned right up front .. as to modern economics beginning. 
* There should be a quick description of the physiocrats here under the lead. It is tied into Smith... Smith discussed and wrote about them at length. This link seems to be unpopular here because every time it is added someone thinks what ever section it is in should be taken out. http://www.eoearth.org/article/Biophysical_economics Biophysical economics - Encyclopedia of Earth
* Quote... Reader motivation is especially important at the beginning of the article. -Is Wikipedia a psychological scheme to seduce readers or just a source of accurate information?. Let readers have their own motivations. It sounds to me like you are talking about manipulating toward Smith and discounting information that is just as important. Why lead the reader? Only factual and accurate and neutral information should be presented. What if some people do not think as others do, that Smith is an end all and be all? By presenting one side .. both sides lose. The passage as written makes perfect sense where it is in the article now. The information it presents will allow people a well rounded view. That is the most important thing here (my opinion). Which brings up another point that should be changed immediately in the current edit. This...There Smith describes the subject in these practical and exacting terms: This is not the way to write neutral information. This phrase should be changed to something neutral. Right now it passes for someones opinion.. and sounds like nonsense to someone else that may not believe that editors opinion. Practical and Exacting come on.. that is original research at its worst. That is an opinion that is being sold to a perhaps gullible reader. That phrasing really is telling someone that Smith is the end all and be all. That has to be changed right away. It sounds more like propaganda or N.L.P.  than information. 
Physiocracy (the Physiocrats) is perhaps the first well developed theory of economics... Classical Economics. It occurred just prior to Smith and should be mentioned here at the beginning after the header in passing and in context.  
Information does not come better sourced or more interesting as to this subject than the link below. http://www.eoearth.org/article/Biophysical_economics Biophysical economics - Encyclopedia of Earth.  This article can either be interesting and creative and full of pertinent information or something else. If the purpose of the article is to get accurate... sourced.. and well placed information, in a sort of order of where it should be located also then I think the edit should stay where it is. The section further down which mentions the group is fine also. Since Adam Smith is sprinkled liberally all through out this article in multiple places.. how is it that equally interesting and pertinent information can not be mentioned where it should be mentioned, near the top? Both Smith and the other group should not be limited to a history section, way down the way. Both can be together in a presented time line as to the presentation, then its more interesting and not so one sided. skip sievert (talk) 01:00, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Physiocrats 

message: The  tag has labeled this page as having possible factual accuracies. That's a pretty serious tag, but I'm not clear on what those supposed inaccuracies are. If there's a preceived POV problem, then perhaps the  tag should be used instead. Cretog8 (talk) 07:22, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  factual accuracy tag 

message: Expanded some info. In The Wealth of Nations, Smith addressed many issues that are currently also the subject of debate and dispute. Smith repeatedly attacks groups of politically aligned individuals who attempt to use their collective influence to manipulate a government into doing their bidding. In Smiths day, these were referred to as "factions," but are now more commonly called special interests, a term which can comprise international bankers, corporate conglomerations, outright oligopolies, trade unions and other groups.(citation http://www.understandingpower.com/Chapter5.htm#f1
Chapter 5. See Noam Chomsky (Understanding Power), [1] on Smith’s emphasis on class conflict in the Wealth of Nations. This may round out some other aspects of Smith who is focused on at the beginning section for perspective that the debate of economic ideas then was intense and is also intense now.skip sievert (talk) 18:08, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  More information after header 

message: Is not a good way to start a topic header. Readers should be allowed to form their own opinions, not be told that this is the beginning of economics as the world knows it as was the implication of that section until recently when other information was added. The heading says nothing except an unsourced opinion. It is religious sounding. It makes the article sound like readers are going to be exposed to a bunch of editors that perhaps worship Adam Smith as a minor economic god. It imparts nothing. It is controversial. It has been disputed in the past. It was not the beginning of any thing... it is reformulated mostly ... stuff from the past. It is possibly amounts to nonsense or gibberish in the article context. It has come under attack by other editors and it is maintained without any kind of defense by one editor... that makes no argument for it on the talk page. It is simply pushing an idea from an editor. An editor perhaps endorsing an economic model or acclaiming an economic model. 
As written, at a minimum, this line (In the beginning), is open to criticism and dispute. That means that In The Beginning is not neutral... any way it is supposedly  explained so far, it is not neutral and really smacks of basic error in guidelines of neutrality. You might also consider taking account of Talk:Economics/Archive 10#Failed "good article" nomination in your edit idea of putting In the beginning back in. The consensus was to scrap it a while ago. It appears there is a long history of people not liking the use of this phrase on multiple discussions about that issue. In the beginning should go away, and stay away, if this article wants to present neutral info. Another editor has also argued for this subjective and non neutral phrase in the past In the beginning... quote A pertinent question should be Which heading is likely to entice interest?" end quote User: Thomasmeeks. 
I have a basic problem with people (editors) trying to entice any one for any thing or purpose here. That defeats the purpose. Readers should be allowed to form their own opinions and not be subjected to opinions as if opinions are information. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:YESPOV
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view skip sievert (talk) 22:34, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  In the beginning 

message: The original article it was featured had a better look and feel, even though the information could have been expanded on and improved or whittled down and improved most likely. For the time being, I slightly changed the money section here... and added a picture of what is thought to be the first standardized coin. I also got rid of the awful title again... In the beginning and for crying out loud everyone... please do not add that back in again. It is bunk as to neutrality or even basic presentation. That ground has been pawed over already too many times. Way too many. As has been practically in the beginning part... that is not neutral... it is an opinion. I replaced it with this very simple intro. There Smith presents the subject in this way. That makes a whole lot more objective sense than an editor making a value judgment on its merits or worth, by saying that Smiths ideas are practical or his approach is practical. I also added another picture...the one from when the article was a featured article. This is a great picture. It says a million words. It is a good juxtapose by the Wall Street picture... Economics can be seen in action at this bazaar in Chichicastenango,Guatemala.
Perhaps you Wikidea could stick in elasticity where you think it would be appropriate... at least for now... until the end of the month when a more concerted effort to improve the whole article can happen, if it does not happen before. In the mean time, I am going to do some piece meal editing on it to try and improve it in this incarnation, till you and others can straighten out some of the information by arranging/formatting things differently, and making a concerted effort to remove the weasel words and flowery language that this thing is sprinkled with throughout.skip sievert (talk) 23:50, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Small improvements and then a general reformatting of information with text changes also 

message: Combined these two sections that naturally go together subject wise (Supply and demand, prices and quantities), as suggested above. Added info. on market failure as suggested above, with multiple ref. citations toward the beginning of article... as this has presented some basic preliminary .. but vital information in regard to overall topic. Added also oligopolies (wiki article link), and made a connector link to wiki article monopolies, as suggested. Also gave wiki article links to factions and trade unions. Some of this material can be re inserted in the future in other areas, but for now at least the article is not minus it... and the section it is in works, as a place to present the information in an overview. Also removed the long and drawn out criticisms section as suggested above. The debated ideas, as suggested come out in the article itself or could... the information was pretty marginal to say the least marginal information on  post-autistic economics for instance. skip sievert (talk) 14:21, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Supply and demand, prices and quantities 

message: I believe that there is no consensus for the removal of "History and schools of economics" subsections (for example as per additional comments in the preceding section).   Such removal was urged at Talk:Economics#Economic side bar, 1st para. toward end.   Main articles are not a good substitute for a briefer treatment of each in the Economics#History and schools of economics section itself.  Nor should selective history be worked worked in throughout the article, which I believe would result in endless WP:NPOV debates, the foretaste of which may be  recent additions to section 1 of the article. History is favored by some heterodox economics approaches, which further complicates WP:NPOV in wrking in history throughout the article.   --Thomasmeeks (talk) 22:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of "History and schools of economics" subsections? 

message: Hello--I haven't been able to participate recently, and that will probably continue for a bit. I did want to make a request/suggestion for the talk page. Please don't make a habit of going back and editing your comments. This page isn't the article, so most flaws are harmless, or can be corrected by adding a short additional comment instead of editing the earlier one.
The problem with going back to edit your comments is that it makes it very tricky to keep track of the conversation; which part of a comment is "new" can get lost, a change to a comment which you might consider important might get missed because it's to an old comment; you might edit a comment so that following replies don't make sense, and so forth. I noticed a fair amount of this from several editors when I just tried to review comments since the last time I was here. (Obviously, there are exceptions when it's a good idea, but those are pretty rare.)
Thanks! Cretog8 (talk) 23:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  threaded talk 

message: That part of the article previously said that Environmental economics and Ecological economics were not to be conflated. That was wrong, or not factual information. At the very least the phrasing using that word (not to be conflated) was misplaced. They are related but different. So, made a more explicit aspect in the article as to that, by adding a couple of linked citations as to what both are ... and the new paragraph below the old one below. 
Environmental economics is concerned with issues related to degradation, enhancement, or preservation of the environment. In particular, public bads from production or consumption, such as air pollution, can lead to market failure. The subject considers how public policy can be used to correct such failures. Policy options include regulations that reflect cost-benefit analysis or market solutions that change incentives, such as emission fees or redefinition of property rights.[86][87] 
Environmental economics is related to ecological economics but there are differences.[88] Most environmental economists have been trained as economists. They apply the tools of economics to address environmental problems, many of which are related to so-called market failures--circumstances wherein the "invisible hand" of economics is unreliable.[89] Most ecological economists have been trained as ecologists, but have expanded the scope of their work to consider the impacts of humans and their economic activity on ecological systems and services, and vice-versa. This field takes as its premise that economics is a strict subfield of ecology. Ecological economics is sometimes described as taking a more pluralistic approach to environmental problems and focuses more explicitly on long-term environmental sustainability and issues of scale. (new area above)
Here are the new references citations added to the second paragraph... that point out the differences and alikeness.  http://www.nber.org/workinggroups/ee/ee.html NBER Working Group Descriptions. This one on Environmental econ. and this one 
http://www.eoearth.org/by/Topic/Ecological%20economics
Article Topic: ecological economics. Which is on Ecological economics.
Also added more very basic history of economic thought beginnings in the lower History section of article. skip sievert (talk) 18:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Environmental economics 

message: Ashgabat is in Turkmenistan. --76.113.150.171 (talk) 08:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing that out. It has been changed. --Patrick (talk) 08:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture caption of Russian bazaar 

message: I'm removing the "Historic definitions of economics" section. This is one of the places where the article delved too deep into stuff which belongs in other articles. I have placed the material from the section at my scratchpad for easy referral. Cretog8 (talk) 09:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I agree. This is what WP:SUMMARIZE is for. Anything useful can go in an article such as History of economic thought. -FrankTobia (talk) 15:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historic definitions of economics 

message: The problem with this picture is, it looks awful whether big or small because it is made originally apparently bleary. It is an eyestrain to look at it. If doubled in size it looks bad... and smaller it looks bad... maybe not quite as bad because there is less of it to see. Does any one have an alternative copy of this information.. that is done well? Could a picture be found or made that gets this information across... that is well done... not out of focus?skip sievert (talk) 21:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure how this section should go. It seems like the sectioning may be going too many levels. But if the sectioning is going to go down that many levels, then it should be as actual sections. Cretog8 (talk) 03:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The downsizing of the Image as above makes the text smaller than that of other figures & very hard to read. The allegedly blurred image  referenced by the first Editor is no blurrier than say the Template at the top of this page. A non-existent reason is no reason at all for removal of the image and explanatory text by one user.   The removal of the Image and of all referenced content with its replacement is shocking.  There is no reason for new subsections, at least as earlier written. The heading with the 2 other topice was unified by the production-possibility frontier, now removed from discussion.  That destroys the anaytical cohesion that links the topics. A series of definitions and classifications does not add up to uses of their uses.  For the record, here (as of July 26) is what the section looked like before the recent series of Edits by one user, compared to after. I think that most readers would consider the changes by far inferior as to analytical content.  --Thomasmeeks (talk) 16:13, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thomas, my brain is too thick at the moment to make the comparison, but I wanted to let you know that I will come back to it and compare the versions. Cretog8 (talk) 16:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Production possibilities, opportunity cost, and efficiency 

message: added a link to the main article  to the that section. Also added Schools of economics main article link  skip sievert (talk) 16:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Financial economics & Schools of economics 

message: Expanded just a little to include some documented misgivings also of Smith, that says directly what he thought could be problems in the overall economic system... and issues related to labour, trade, and specialization.. Here.... 
In The Wealth of Nations, Smith addressed many issues that are currently also the subject of debate and dispute. Smith repeatedly attacks groups of politically aligned individuals who attempt to use their collective influence to manipulate a government into doing their bidding. In Smiths day, these were referred to as factions, but are now more commonly called special interests, a term which can comprise international bankers, corporate conglomerations, outright oligopolies, monopolies, trade unions and other groups.[18] 
This makes a good counterpoint to the first ideas presented... that it has to be looked at also in the broader context... and Smith did indeed look at the broader context also... and not just present ideas as at all perfect. skip sievert (talk) 17:02, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Moved this bit to the "market failure" section. It's still a bit awkward, but makes more sense there (unless moved to public choice or something). Cretog8 (talk) 01:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason I put it where it was ... because it was a Smith related part of the article any way and connected with Specialization, division of labour, and gains from trade as in how those can be compromised. It may have been better where it was, so I changed it back. It was a counter balance to making it appear that Smith was all sweetness and light about those issues and not a social critic also. It was located in the area that discussed those subjects and what happens when things are misguided or compromised with those subjects... as to political interference. skip sievert (talk) 02:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Smith said lots of stuff, but that section isn't about Smith it's about certain ideas which Smith talked about (as well as others). And then there's these other ideas, which are not about gains from trade, specialization, etc. So, they don't belong in that section. If those different ideas do belong in the same section, then (as best I can see) that section would have to be Smith-specific. Cretog8 (talk) 03:20, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

text: I think the following sentence captures what's essential about that paragraph: "In The Wealth of Nations, Smith pointed out that special interests (or "factions") use their collective influence to manipulate a government into doing their bidding." Thoughts? Cretog8 (talk) 03:24, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that cuts the very important information to much. The point is to let people know that Smith viewed things in a complex way. The full text of it now says that... The section also starts out with Smith commentary and also discusses the mechanics of Smiths ideas, and Smiths counterpoint of criticism related to the basics of his ideas. It is a short paragraph now.. shortening it further removes counterpoint information. Presenting real counterpoint and actual criticism in the article makes it more balanced. It is important to present a well rounded view of Smith. It is only a few lines.. but gives a lot of information.. and directly connects to the subject in the section. Smiths misgivings and his own critique. The actual Adam Smith article puts a special emphasis about this as regards Smith,... and really this information presents ..now, a nice thumbnail of it ... as is.  skip sievert (talk) 16:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: On second thought another editor (Imperfectly informed) suggested moving it also... and there is one section it probably could easily belong in. That is the criticisms section. It feels more organically appropriate there... so moved it again.skip sievert (talk) 21:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expanded... Specialization, division of labour, and gains from trade 

message: The talk page is looking a bit big right now. Does anyone object if I set up an automated bot to archive old discussions? I was thinking 45 days would probably be the right time period. --Patrick (talk) 06:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Since I was on the bot page already, I decided to add in the code and have it automatically archived after 45 days. Please revert if you disagree. --Patrick (talk) 07:19, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. Thanks for setting it up. -FrankTobia (talk) 09:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

text:   The proliferation of sections, more than a few dealing with the related topics with cross referenceing I believe makes at least 60 days since last Edit advisable. Does "45 days refer" to snce last Edit? --Thomasmeeks (talk) 20:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the last date of a comment made in the section. I think 45 days is good for now, but things start slowing down here, we can always make it longer --Patrick (talk) 21:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Well, there is an unprecedented traffic on the Talk page, not all of it digested. Ttat argues for longer, not shorter archiving. What is the practical problem with 60 days?  It is bad enoough opending up new threads unnecessarily. Why break direct access to earlier threads as well?  --Thomasmeeks (talk) 21:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok i changed it to 60 days. --Patrick (talk) 22:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  bot archiving 

message: Anybody have a good feeling for where/how to link this? I think it does belong in the article, but I don't know if there's a standard way to do it. I've asked for advice on the Portal's talk page. (It should have its own link regardless of the inclusion or not of the Economic Systems sidebar, because someone who's not interested in the fine points of Syndicalist vs. Mercantalist systems should still be able to see that a Business & Economics Portal exists.) CRETOG8(t/c) 00:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I usually see them in the see also section of the page. Wasn't that where it was on this article?  --Patrick (talk) 00:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The code is    --Patrick (talk) 00:21, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

text: That's where it was, yes. In Business, it's right up top, which kinda organizationally makes sense, but I think looks pretty bad. CRETOG8(t/c) 00:28, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Completely agree so I moved it. I actually went to look at the business page before I responded to see where they had it on their page but I couldn't find it. But I did find a guidline that dealt with this Wikipedia:Layout#See_also --Patrick (talk) 00:37, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah! Thanks for the guideline. CRETOG8(t/c) 00:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Business and economics portal 

message: I say it has good info. and should be at the top of the article under the first picture. It is all about Economics... the subject in question. It has valuable links to multiple economics related material... concepts and ideas .. that are otherwise not in the article. So.. it is a way to bump up the educational information... an easy way.. for the article. The links in this are invaluable.skip sievert (talk) 20:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: For anyone who's missed it, there's previous discussion in this section and this section. Repeating myself from above, this sidebar doesn't belong in this article because it is designed for articles which are "Part of a series on Economic Systems". This article is not part of that series. There may also be other reasons it does not belong, but this one reason should be enough. Cretog8 (talk) 20:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The side bar is not designed to the exclusion of the subject of Economics in a particular article if when it is put in it makes more and better information as to economics known... which is the point here. Look at the information in it. The information is not designed for for articles which are "Part of a series on Economic Systems". It is broad as to economics information. Why put all this good information into one category... one which you think should not be used? The Economic ideologies alone is fantastic... it deprives the article to not use this info. It makes it more well rounded (my opinion).skip sievert (talk) 21:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

text: I've solicited other opinions at the sidebar talk page and the Economics project page. Cretog8 (talk) 21:11, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Another possibility... move Economics systems side bar to See also section at lower end of article. If.. Business and economics portal in the current edit is kept... this would kill two birds with one stone... as the Business and economics portal is already in the Economics system sidebar currently as part of the content. skip sievert (talk) 22:03, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's a good idea, it's clutter at the bottom and any links which need to be in the article can be handled better as part of the article. Cretog8 (talk) 01:56, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Information well presented is not clutter. There is no way to put those kinds of links directly in the article because they are tangents of economics like different systems that will not be discussed in a basic economics article. The wealth of information would also include the Business and economics portal as it stands now .. which is pretty iffy material perhaps.skip sievert (talk) 21:11, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

text: If that's standard, then it could make sense for this article also. Hopefully it wouldn't screw up the layout. VT, can you point out examples where sidebars are used that way? I normally have seen one sidebar per article. CRETOG8(t/c) 21:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok good. I wonder though if the section Business and Economics Portal should be edited out of the sidebar though as it contains political information not related? skip sievert (talk) 23:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Drat, it does screw up the layout. As it is, there's no way to see that it's associated with the Economic Systems section. Skip, maybe you could also find examples in other articles where sidebars like this are used for specific sections? That might help. And unless the layout can be cleaned up a lot, I still don't like it. Plus I continue to figure that material from the sidebar can be included in the article, or if it can't be, then it's fine to leave it out since it's only a click away through Economic system anyway. As for the Business and Economics portal link, that's a different discussion. CRETOG8(t/c) 23:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it is where it should be I think placed in the proper section. Lots of pictures overlap sections in other articles... and this is probably not an aesthetic beauty contest... but information delivery. Also the information is such a wealth that it could never be worked into the article. I do think that the lower section that borders on business and politics should not be in the side bar though. I removed the Business and Economics Portal in the lower see other section as that information was redundant now in the economic systems section sidebar above. That improves the other section ... so maybe that is a trade off. skip sievert (talk) 23:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Cretog8, it seems you are right. Articles that are placed higher in hierarchy usually don't contain sidebars of articles that are lower in hierarchy. -- Vision  Thing -- 17:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for checking, VT. I'll pull the sidebar out. CRETOG8(t/c) 03:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Usually don't.. and lower in hierarchy? That does not sound like policy, is it? skip sievert (talk) 03:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Debate on the use of this sidebar 

message: This looks to be the only section now that still looks unfocused or meandering and maybe confused. This area probably needs a complete rewriting now... and it would seem the article in general will look pretty good then... with minor improvements yet to go.. more pictures... better language etc. skip sievert (talk) 22:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: At least some of that material belongs in the "practice" section because, while it's criticism, it's criticism from economists to other economists on how they do their stuff. CRETOG8(t/c) 16:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe, but mostly it is directly related to and talks about criticisms. I do think the practice section needs a lot of work. It is unfocused. It needs information directly related to the subject. Added Schools of economics main article in sub heading to broaden info as link to main page to 'practice' section. skip sievert (talk) 16:54, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Economics in practice 

message: Ok... Economics in practice has now morphed into General practices courtesy of Imperfectly informed... and looks better for it. It appears that two of these sections can be combined now.. # 5.2 Empirical testing and # 5.4
Econometrics. Maybe this section could be called Empirical testing and Econometrics skip sievert (talk) 03:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  General practices 

message: Ok... Economics in practice has now morphed into General practices courtesy of Imperfectly informed... and looks better for it. It appears that two of these sections can be combined now.. # 5.2 Empirical testing and # 5.4 Econometrics. Maybe this section could be called Empirical testing and Econometrics skip sievert (talk) 03:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks a lot for the praise. :) Just a little reorganization. Sorry I haven't been too talkative; just not in the mood to use talk pages a lot lately. I agree that it's looking decent, but it still has a ways to go. No rush. II | (t - c) 20:41, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  General practices 

message: Simply put, it is economic activity that is neither taxed nor monitored by a government; and is not included in that government's Gross National Product (GNP); as opposed to a formal economy.
Although the informal economy is often associated with developing countries, all economic systems contain an informal economy in some proportion. The term "informal sector" was used in many earlier studies, and has been mostly replaced in more recent studies which use the newer term.
The English idioms under the table and "off the books" typically refer to this type of economy. The term black market refers to a specific subset of the informal economy.
Informal economic activity is a dynamic process which includes many aspects of economic and social theory including exchange, regulation, and enforcement. By its nature, it is necessarily difficult to observe, study, define, and measure. No single source readily or authoritatively defines informal economy as a unit of study.
End....... This is a new section and probably important to round things out more. It is placed on the bottom of selective fields which owes it origin to a certain Imperfectly Informed... and this connector is where it probably deserves to be, (bottom section), as it is furtive and iffy in and of itself due to its very own nature. Does any one have a strong opinion of where to go now as to any significant content?? or ... as said previously is it time to work on tweaking what is here with more defined info. and pictures? I would like to stress again that as is ... the idea here is to create a classic reference point for the concept of economics...which is transcendentally intelligent in context to the subject and in that sense...there is room for improvement in the article.  skip sievert (talk) 03:05, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, informal economy belongs more in the economy article than here. It's not an approach to economic study, but more like an economic sector. Economies can be divided into formal/informal similar to the way that economies can be divided into public/private or primary/secondary/tertiary. If we're going to mention informal economy in this article (which I'm not sure is necessary), it seems that we should put a section on economies and mention it in the context of these other subdivisions.II | (t - c) 08:33, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes.. and will move it to the other article where it would seem to expand that information and fit more with that context (Economy). Maybe the wiki link to that article (Informal economy) could fit into the context of this article (Economics) though somewhere appropriately. skip sievert (talk) 15:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Informal economy (new section) 

message: This
In Steady State Economics 1977, Herman Daly points out the logical inconsistencies between the emphasis placed on economic growth and the energy and environmental realities confronting us.http://dieoff.org/page88.htm Steady-State Economics, by Herman Daly Like Frederick Soddy, Daly argued that our preoccupation with monetary flows at the expense of thermodynamics principles misleads us into believing that technological advance is limitless, and that perpetual economic growth is not only physically possible, but morally and ethically desirable as well.
In Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt, (George Allen & Unwin 1926), Frederick Soddy turned his attention to the role of energy in economic systems. He criticized the focus on monetary flows in economics, arguing that “real” wealth was derived from the use of energy to transform materials into physical goods and services. Soddy’s economic writings were largely ignored in his time, but would later be applied to the development of biophysical economics and ecological economics in the late 20th century.http://www.eoearth.org/article/Soddy,_Frederick
Soddy, Frederick - Encyclopedia of Earth
End skip sievert (talk) 23:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added some content to criticisms section 

message: Hello all. As I said above, I'd like to try a restructure and invite everyone to join in filling out with real material, and make this a good article. I have some principles for editing, which I intend to follow, and I wonder if you would all like to agree to them? The good thing about principles for editing is knowing how we will get to a good article. I think that in 8000 words (not including footnotes) we can do economics in a comprehensive enough way to engage people and act as the best "roadmap" on the web for people who come to the subject for the first time, and find quickly where they want to go. So the principles.
*Delete nothing, only relocate.
:This page has so much good material that it is all valuable, and this has been the best thing about the page's development. But if we look to subsections, we find that this main page is often more detailed than the subpages!
*Clear mapping.
:Structure, structure, structure. We need to have a logical structure. My proposal, which I will paste below, is simply based on what good economics texts go by, plus the extra things that Wikipedia is good at. I think we can get everything down into a clear set of contents. We don't want readers spending more time going through contents than the page itself!
*Good presentation.
:This is a simple matter. But by good presentation I think we need proper, cohesive paragraphs, pictures under each section. I go for pictures alternative sides, but that's just me.
*The best sources.
:I think that we have a lot from the Palgrave Dictionary, but not from academic articles, the seminal texts and perhaps a few good textbooks. Where there is a primary source available on the web (esp. Wikisource for historical documents) I think it's best practice to cite that first.
Please add your own! Or put down some suggestions. Is anyone good at templates? I think a timeline would be nice for the history section, and it'd be good to have a new dropdown for economic subjects. Wikidea 21:53, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Totally agree with Skip. -FrankTobia (talk) 01:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Principles of Wikinomics 

message: Should this be here or in the article at all? It is in the See also section. The other external links, and information at the bottom, covers economic related connectors. The god awful picture of the stock exchange picture, blurry picture is here again when it is opened, and also some ... what could be viewed as political propaganda... or business propaganda in a so called editorial section of the content of the Business and economics portal. This seems to be about business and politics... no? It appears that this side bar could be removed from the article. skip sievert (talk) 02:27, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it belongs. CRETOG8(t/c) 02:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: How is that, given the reasons above? skip sievert (talk) 03:20, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Because this article is on economics. A portal serves a different purpose than those other links. You have arguments with the content of the portal page itself, which is a different matter. CRETOG8(t/c) 03:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but the little side bar is on business and politics also. The information now on the bottom of the page is more focused as to the subject of... economics... and is not ranging around those other two subjects... business and politics. skip sievert (talk) 03:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

text: It belongs. These portals are good navigation tools. II | (t - c) 03:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There are no shortage of good navigation tools... what about the arguments about it being political and business, and not really appropriate for that reason? skip sievert (talk) 04:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Portals are a navigation tool that shouldn't be ignored, although they are neglected. II | (t - c) 04:10, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But what about the points being made, as far as the disconnected information in it? skip sievert (talk) 04:20, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

text: The economic systems side bar (placed above here for reference), is the one that I think could be used down there, where the Business and economics portal is now. It contains a wealth of information on related things... is only political in the sense of naming lots of different types of governments that are sometimes associated with economic systems... and just has so many economic related links. Could that be down here where the present portal is instead of the current little portal? Why not use that incredible amount of succinct information where it can be used as a wonderful reference guide... in the bottom reference area? I went to the page suggested Patrick, and made a comment. skip sievert (talk) 21:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The economics system sidebar has the portal info on it as well.  I would put the economics sidebar under the main picture.  You could add the portal link to the see also section, or leave it off since the sidebar contains the link.  Another option would be to create our own sidebar that is more specific to economics as a science and field.  Better yet, we could modify this sidebar to include an "Economics" area that contains topics like macro, micro, etc.  Morphh  (talk) 21:17, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok... if I read you right, you are saying the economics systems side bar would be good at the top of the page under the main picture? I agree that would be a great spot... because of the incredibly good information linkage in it. I agree modifying it a little is a good idea... but in the meantime, because it expands, so well the whole context of information it probably works as is very well also, and is a ready made connector of good information. We could do a mock up of a new one on the talk page any time skip sievert (talk) 21:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, It would be nice to build on the sidebar to include some of our main topic points (i.e. Agricultural economics · Economic development · Economic growth · Economic history · Economic systems · Economist · Environmental economics · Financial economics · Industrial organization · International economics · Law and economics ·  Econometrics · Microeconomics · Macroeconomics · Economic policy · Political economy · Public economics · Resource economics · Economic schools of thought · Technological change).  We could create a section for "Economics" and place our most important articles there. Morphh  (talk) 21:24, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Morph, I'm not sure if you're aware that the Economic systems sidebar has been much-debated already. If you want to re-open the debate, that's your prerogative, I just wanted to point it out to you. You can find much of the debate in several threads on this page. I have no objection in principle to the creation of an economics sidebar--it could be awesome, but figuring out how to keep it under control might be hard. CRETOG8(t/c) 21:27, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The one as is will do for starters... It is all economics related and expands the info in a good way. Constructing a new and improved model would be perfect for the article. Ok. In the mean time I will put the sidebar on the article. I think it may be a good idea to edit out the business/economics portal part... but will leave it for now... and just take that off the bottom ... see also section... because as you mention that info. is in the economics systems side bar... and we can decide what to do with that aspect of the information later... unless you want to start changing it now.skip sievert (talk) 21:32, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The current consensus is to not have the sidebar and to have the portal link. Give it a little time for the consensus to change, if it's going to. CRETOG8(t/c) 22:03, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the sidebar. I'm ambivalent on the Portal since it is in the sidebar, but I don't think it hurts to have it in the see also section. II | (t - c) 22:19, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I guess I'll repeat myself. The Economic systems sidebar doesn't belong because this article is not "Part of a series on economic systems". I think that should be enough. If that's not enough, then I'll argue that putting "Economic systems" right up top is pretty extreme in undue weight, and having somebody see (for instance) Georgist ideology before they see supply & demand is pretty bizarre. CRETOG8(t/c) 22:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, you're right. The sidebar belongs in the economy article. Still, we've got the empty space and it would be nice to have a sidebar. II | (t - c) 22:45, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The side bar is great the way it is and can be further improved and more directly related in time. The article is all about economic systems... right? Why not put this current side bar in the bottom see other section then... where it is not the first thing looked at, if that is an issue, and work on improving a future side bar for the top?. It is being used now... it is good information... it does directly relate to the subject in multiple ways.  skip sievert (talk) 23:12, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Business and economics portal, side bar in the ''see also'' section of the lower article 

message: I do not think this phrase famous... is a good way to describe Smith's hand analogy, visible or other wise... the average person does not know Adam Smith from John Smith. This almost seems to be borderline leading the reader in to judgment. Here are the diffs http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Economics&diff=234704493&oldid=234696601  well known covers some ground, but does not imply that this guys invisible hand is any thing other than something that is relatively well known. Famous this guys invisible hand is not ... except among a small band of economics geeks and maybe some other reluctant student of economics 101, where it could be argued the phrase is well known. skip sievert (talk) 03:37, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Google news search. These are articles which refer to the invisible hand analogy, many in non-specialist papers and on a variety of topics. Keep in mind these are recent news articles, not just web pages. CRETOG8(t/c) 03:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

text: I think it's famous. II | (t - c) 03:53, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Using google as a reference to citing much of any thing is pretty much a lost cause... for a lot of things. Any kind of nonsense or quote can be drummed up in the fractured hall of mirrors of the internet ... as almost everything can somehow be backed up if the desire is strong enough. The point is word choice, and neutral editing, for the article. Not what google says. Google is not the arbiter of whether Smiths invisible hand is famous or not because it has X number of hits... is it? It may be well known... but famous? I don't think so. Even using the google search this comes up short ... Results 1 - 10 of about 45 for invisible-hand smith. 45 hits sounds famous..?. I don't think so, so it fails that criteria also.skip sievert (talk) 04:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's an editorial choice of words. I think famous is appropriate for something so well-known. II | (t - c) 04:10, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It sounds to me like an editorial that is given, that is meant to lead the reader and convince them with blatantly appraising it as famous, when the average person has not only never heard of it... does not care about it, in regard to fame... and if they were told it was famous.. would probably laugh. It is not neutral, and is misleading. Even the cited google hits.. says something a lot less than famous. skip sievert (talk) 04:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phrasing as to ''well known'' as opposed to ''famous'' of invisible hand 

message: For the "Economics and other subjects" section (which I expect is still in a lot of flux), the links to other "main articles" are to Law and Economics, Philosophy of economics, and recently Natural resource economics. Now what's there as a "main article" should also reflect what's in the text, but as I said, flux. Anyway, I think Philosophy of economics doesn't belong, because that's not really about other subjects, it's inward-looking to economics itself. Law and economics seems a good choice (and relates most to the existent text). Instead of Natural resource economics, I would suggest Environmental economics. In terms of formal categories it's tricky. In fact, for reasons of historical focus, it seems that environmental economics is often treated as a sub-category of natural resource economics. But practically speaking, it seems like environmental economics would be a more meaningful link. CRETOG8(t/c) 21:44, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree on the points your making. Philosophy and Ethics related material should be focused on here. Adam Smith... the so called father of modern economics was a moral philosopher as much as an economist. Also... Natural resource economics and Environmental economics can both be in this category with main article links. The article previously was not connected much to Energy economics and that area can be covered a little there (Economics and other subjects) as well as philosophy of economics and other related subjects. If any thing that area could use some more expanding in that section with other connected to economics concepts. Energy and physics is basic to economics and economic thinking and has been a focus of economics since the discovery of Thermodynamics. For interested parties in that subject this can be looked at for more information http://ecen.com/eee9/ecoterme.htm and here http://www.eoearth.org/article/Biophysical_economics  -- So why limit the information? It is best if the big picture is looked at.. and that includes an overall concept and picture of the subject... economics. skip sievert (talk) 23:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  other subjects article links 

message: Is this a locked article? I can't seem to access the edit function, there were a few spelling mistakes I wanted to correct...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.154.17.180 (talk) 06:30, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strange... 

message: If there are any currency board experts here, your help would be appreciated at Talk:Gibraltar#Gibraltar_Rupiah.  We are a bunch of editors who don't really understand how the Gibraltar Pound relates to the British Pound :) The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 03:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help on the Gibraltar Pound 

message: Morph suggested this alternative picture a while back... and it seems to be easier on the eyes because of the image size and clarity, and also seems to fit the context here well being on another side than the economics bar. Or maybe it should also be on the right, as the other images on the page. Comments?
:I like the hubbub of the previous picture better, and the previous caption seems more appropriate to me (but of course I'm biased on that). CRETOG8(t/c) 04:42, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The thing I like about this one is the larger picturing of the humans in it, and the vibrant color. The caption can always be changed on this market picture... with links or other connectors, or other sentiment. skip sievert (talk) 04:49, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image...picture