Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 35

message: Why is there that little  icon in the upper right-hand corner of this page?  I can see it's a link to Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/style change, but are people who haven't heard of that topic really supposed to realize that if they are interested in it, the ⊕ icon is the thing to click on? —Steve Summit (talk) 11:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I just clicked it to see what it is, and now it's a convenient shortcut to that discussion. I guess that's the point --⁪frotht 16:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A long way back I used :Image:Mspaintvista.png, unforntunatly it's a fairuse image, so it had to be removed. Feel free to pick another image, preferably one with a transparent background, the template is stored at Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/color--VectorPotentialTalk 16:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, but my question was not "What is it for and where does it go?" (which I eventually figured out), but rather, "How is someone who doesn't already know what it's for supposed to recognize it for what it is?" —Steve Summit (talk) 00:34, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They could just click it to see what it is, but I guess a short subtitle would be useful. A.Z. 20:59, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is text that becomes visible when you mouse over the icon, however I think I may add an actual always visible caption--VectorPotentialTalk 18:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Speaking of which I've just completely revamped Wikipedia:Reference desk/color and added it to Wikipedia:Reference desk/RD header. If it clashes with anything in anyone's browsers, please let me know. --VectorPotentialTalk 19:31, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I made the text smaller and put it on just two lines. How can we actually "Help Out"? By proposing more colour schemes?  --LambiamTalk 20:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hopefully, if the page generates enough traffic there will be enough opinions that we can build an effective consensus on the color of the page. If it doesn't generate any traffic, then we can always keep everything gray--VectorPotentialTalk 20:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not really 100% sure what I want the page to be. It's just based on a subset of the style change page that froth created. Hopefully if enough people visit it the page will develop into something a little more user friendly --VectorPotentialTalk 20:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  whassup? 

message: Could someone give this a once over? It looks just right in firefox, but I just checked IE 7 and it looks a bit off.--VectorPotentialTalk 20:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk/style_change/header]] 

message: As some of you may have noticed, RefDeskBot has been behaving a little erratically lately, and Martin is on wikibreak.  I've just finished cleaning up the last week's unarchived posts on the help desk, if someone could do the same for the entertainment reference desk, that would be incredibly helpful.  Thanks to everyone who has been helping out with this--VectorPotentialTalk 17:02, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For some bizarre reason it's taken away the 21 June date on the Humanities Desk, not the QAs, just the date, leaving an odd message (1. REDIRECT etc. etc.) between items 1.13 and 1.14.  June 20 now has a massive 29 items!  I tried to edit the missing date back in, but clearly lack the necessary technical skill.  Clio the Muse 02:36, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

text: It's OK.  I managed to make the alteration! Clio the Muse 02:48, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mea culpa. In my defense, I have been misled by a statement made by the bot's owner; see above at #On linking to reference desk sections.  --LambiamTalk 06:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The only reason that the redirect problem would occur is if the bot was, for some reason, unable to save the page.  I'm becoming slowly less busy, but am quite occupied until Sunday evening now (maybe Monday evening in fact).  Once I have a spare moment, I'll check that everything's working as it should.  Lambiam: Has the problem you note there happened before?  I'm quite sure that the bot would have simply replaced the page text, given the basis upon which it works (taking this from rusty memory :)). Martinp23 08:07, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see the diff above.  Very strange, my apologies, will be fixed. Martinp23 08:09, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Thank you. A.Z. 03:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Stu. It seems that June 13–1817 were lost in the process, though. --mglg(talk) 04:18, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lost ?  I'd assumed they had been archived and the bot was dropping their transclusions because they were over 1 week old.  You're right, the archived versions don't seem to be here: . StuRat 04:28, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you put the deleted days back on the Entertainment Ref Desk ?  I would, but my computer is acting up at the moment and probably can't handle that.  (Archiving them properly would be even better, but I realize that's a lot to ask.) StuRat 04:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: RefDeskBot failed to archive the entertainment desk for almost a week, because of this there were too many days on the desk when the bot resumed archiving that page, this confused the bot and caused it to mangle the header. The solution is for someone to restore all the missing archives, and restore the correct number of days to the desk.--VectorPotentialTalk 19:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  {{User|RefDeskBot}} 

message: I wanted to look at a question and answers of an earlier date than the few days displayed. Yet I cannot see how to get to them. Would anyone agree that this needs correcting? I've no idea how to make such changes myself. Thanks—Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.2.214.17 (talk • contribs) 
:We already have an extensive set of archives--VectorPotentialTalk 12:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Impossible to get to earlier questions 

message: Recent contrib of 212.115.41.40.  Please don't feed him.  --LarryMac | Talk 14:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misc desk being trolled 

message: Didn't run last night, probably due to high database lag.  It would be helpful if someone could complete last night's archive before RefDeskBot runs again tonight--VectorPotentialTalk 19:26, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  --LambiamTalk 16:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, let's just hope that after two nights of inactivity RefDeskBot comes back online--VectorPotentialTalk 18:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's obviously on strike, like the Post Office here in England!  Clio the Muse 02:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  {{User|RefDeskBot}} 

message: Should we include a link somewhere to Wikiversity's English Language Reference Desk, which specializes in answering questions specifically relating to English?  At any rate, the Wikiversity ELang desk is around, for anyone interested.  The Jade Knight 00:13, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since it seems so inactive, I don't see a good reason to link to it.  Friday (talk) 00:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikiversity in general "seems so inactive".  They're active (and questions get answered fairly promptly), but Wikiversity just doesn't draw the same crowd of questioners that Wikipedia does.  Maybe in a few years…  anyway, the Reference Desk is there, and is being used when people stumble across it.  I just figured it might be a good place for people looking specifically for English Language help to go.  The Jade Knight 13:24, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see "inactivity" as a reason not to link to it. It could be a reason to link to it, as this would increase activity. A.Z. 18:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not here to increase the traffic of other websites, nor to improve the functioning of other websites. Wikipedia is here to be an encyclopedia, and the reference desks are here to make the encyclopedia work better :) Skittle 00:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  English Language Reference Desk 

message: The question was a legit question. Why was it removed ? It indicated that a Debate between two opposing sides will take place, where it can be placed, was NOT "trolling" at all. The debate is between JC, a fundamentalist preacher and Oscar, who is alleged to be some kind of demon. Both called the show last night and indicated that there will be a bloody debate. What is the criteria on here for "trolling" ? 205.240.144.225 04:05, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The question  was removed  because it was no question at all.  It seemed designed merely to stir up debate, or drum up publicity for the radio show. —Steve Summit (talk) 04:51, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  And, for what it's worth, this similar question is also pretty dubious. —Steve Summit (talk) 00:25, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re.: Coast To Coast Question : 

message: Can I ask those of you who are knowledgeable in such matters if the automatic archiving is likely to come back any time soon?  The Humanities Desk is getting horribly long!  Clio the Muse 23:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How about when the Ref Desk talk page is going to get an archive? Anyone? - AMP'd 23:58, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  A.Z. 00:52, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done what?  --LambiamTalk 09:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think he meant he done archived this talk page. —Steve Summit (talk) 12:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh!  Cool!  I didn't know about those top-header templates.  Thanks. (You wouldn't believe what I've been using instead...) —Steve Summit (talk) 05:00, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Next to :Template:Archive header for the daily archive pages there is also :Template:Archive header monthly for creating the monthly archive pages, such as Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/July 2007. For the Help Desk, also (not) archived by RefDeskBot, use :Template:HD Archive header and :Template:HD Archive header monthly instead.  --LambiamTalk 10:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The header templates have a tendency to produce "Error: invalid time". I'm afraid I don't quite understand what's going on there.  --LambiamTalk 06:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're probably missing the year parameter, which was added to the template a number of months ago, but never added to the template documentation. Just add 2007 in the last slot of the template, like so.. . All 4 templates require the year parameter to be tacked onto the end otherwise they'll produce "Error: invalid time"--VectorPotentialTalk 12:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I have a new one half-finished. —Steve Summit (talk) 22:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope it will be more robust than its predecessor. Ideally, an archiving bot should produce a simple human-readable log of its actions, doing a verification of each step, so that we can easily see whether something went wrong. Also, ideally, it should do the job even if it runs completely irregularly (sometimes every hour, sometimes every three days) and may occasionally be rudely interrupted anywhere in the process. It should be resistant against edit conflicts, database locks, server crashes, and such. The procedures for determining where the page headers end and the daily postings start and for extracting the contents of the thread headings both leave some room for improvements.  --LambiamTalk 06:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have time for a full description this morning, but my plan (and this is the part that's already written) is to do the splitting based primarily on level-2 thread headings and the ~~~~ timestamps embedded within threads, looking at the level-1 date headings only as a backup. —Steve Summit (talk) 13:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

text: There is, of course, the problem of questioners not signing, as in this first question of the day, and sometimes – although more rarely – not even supplying a heading. If there is no date header at the split, one should be inserted, and it would be confusing if there can be more than one date header for a given day.  --LambiamTalk 16:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks for all the work. In case you want to be appointed to the coveted position of Official Reference Desk Archivalist, a subtle hint will suffice.  --Lambiam 15:06, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, Shinhan A.Z. 01:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving 

message: Is energy material? I couldn't find the direct answer to the question in the article. -PatPeter 17:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See your question at Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#Help_Needed David D. (Talk) 19:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Help Needed

message: favourite, olde, and withe? I am in a discussion about language on Youtube here. -PatPeter 17:27, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to have accidentally asked your questions on the page for talking about the reference desks. You will get much better results if you choose an appropriate page on the Reference desks themselves. For example, this question probably belongs under "Language". Skittle 18:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guys is "ignourant" ever used in old English? Or... 

message: This page seems to be a page with recent changes to the reference desk. Is it really? Wasn't the lack of such a page the main problem with creating individual pages for each question? I don't know how this page works, though, and whether it would continue working if we splitted the reference desks into many pages. A.Z. 01:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's an explanation here. I think this could be used as a watchlist, so we could create a page for each question. A.Z. 23:54, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference desk recent changes 

message: Re: Language RD, question of User:JDitto
I know it is generally taboo to delete other people's comments, but I can think no reason why anyone would have wished to post a question twice on the same page.  I ASG that it was a simple mistake, and deleted it.martianlostinspace 21:19, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like he hit Save page twice by accident. --VectorPotentialTalk 21:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed Repeated Question

message: Unless there are objections, I'm going to be renaming Template:Archive header and Template:Archive header monthly to Template:RD Archive header and Template:RD Archive header monthly. —Steve Summit (talk) 03:32, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How come?--VectorPotentialTalk 11:23, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The RD Archives are not the only archives that have such headers. For the Help Desk we have Template:HD Archive header and Template:HD Archive header monthly. This makes the system more orthogonal.  --Lambiam 14:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Although I think it's a good idea to leave the redirects in place--VectorPotentialTalk 17:49, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  header template rename 

message: I'm thinking it might be a good idea if all the desks were move protected.--VectorPotentialTalk 18:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why, did a non-administrator move the desks recently? A.Z. 22:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: , and the problem isn't that they moved it, in so much as they moved it abusively. Considering the persistence of said user, I'm anticipating further abuse from the same source. --VectorPotentialTalk 19:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should wait for more abuse before protecting pages. A.Z. 21:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  They have been move protected. Rockpocket 22:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks, Rockpocket.  A.Z., why would we wait for more pagemove abuse?  Do you like to have beans up your nose?  Is there any conceivable reason why any editor would want or need to rename any of the Ref Desks? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not able to conceive them right now, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Even if they don't, I just think protecting pages is a drastic measure. I prefer to know that I could move them, if it became needed. A.Z. 22:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

text:  Actually, scratch that, because it doesn't appear that they are move protected. I checked yesterday and was sure they were protected, but a quick check again today seems that they are not, and I don't appear to be able to protect them myself. Could another admin check and see if they can? Rockpocket 22:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Turns out there is a technical gremlin at the moment, and the workaround involves edit protecting the page for a short time. I would rather not do that to such a busy page unless there is an urgent need. When it is sorted out I'll move protect the appropriate pages, or else I'll wait until a quiet period (late pm Pacific time) and do it then. Rockpocket 04:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Hopefully this doesn't become another Willy On Wheels. 63.224.202.235 22:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  move = sysops 

message: This one. User:24.147.86.187 actually gave a serious answer to the first "joke", but when the original poster added another sample, I removed the whole thread anyway. Hope no one minds. ---Sluzzelin talk 02:31, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thread removed 

message: Whereas the date headers are being added manually (for now) it would be more helpful if those folks adding the  template used the  template instead as suggested by Steve Summit above. Don't forget to convert the "Page history" time to UTC and to change the date if that correction crosses the midnight hour. Thanks, ~ hydnjo talk 23:02, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, please do use {unsigned2}, but I wouldn't worry too much about tinkering with the time and date.  If you're using default settings, the page-history lists display UTC times anyway.  And the new archiving bot is already somewhat approximate about date boundaries, so if you should happen to retroactively add a signature that's off by a day, and even if it does end up being one the bot looks at in trying to determine a day boundary, it's not going to cause the bot to be any more inaccurate than it's already being all by itself (and that I, for one, am quite comfortable with it being). —Steve Summit (talk) 03:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I use {{subst:unsigned-r|08:08, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 123.456.789.012 (talk • contribs) 08:08, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Advantages: you don't have to reorder the TIME and USER parameters when you copy them from the history or diff, and the template produces an exhortation to sign one's posts (with a link to how to do that).  --Lambiam 08:08, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  {unsigned2} also has the parameters reversed for that same convenience. (Me, I prefer it without the exhortation -- chacun à son goût.) —Steve Summit (talk) 11:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Somewhat OT but anyone heard anything about Hagerman or the bot? Or does anyone know if someone's working on a replacement? Nil Einne 15:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsigned questions

message: I deleted this question, with apologies to A.Z. who answered it seriously.  No teenager in America who writes as literately as this one did can possibly not be aware of either his father's opinions (if truly stated) or of society's views on racism. Sometimes polite, well-written questions are still trolling.  If someone really thinks this was a true questuion, then perhaps taking the question and its reply to the User's as yet unused discussion page might be the bext place for it. I thought it was trash. Bielle 21:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it seemed like trolling. I'm not sure, however, that there are no American teenagers capable of honestly having written the post. A.Z. 21:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not that there are no teenagers in America who might have had a similar experience to the one described, but I doubt very much (and admit to a bias for the power of education) that teenager would write so carefully of the experience, while still managing to get a hateful word, spelled out in full, on the Ref Desk page some three times. I can't be certain of this, of course, but I would bet a considerable part of the family fortune (1 gold Queen Victoria pound coin, a first edition of Brown's Self-Interpreting Bible and a print of Whistler's Mother done on black velvet) on being right. Bielle 22:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not only that but whatever problems exist in the US related to racism, I'm pretty sure no congressperson would get away with publicly using such offensive words and calling black people unequal Nil Einne
Good move on this, Bielle.  It's patently obvious what the intention was, just as it is equally obvious that this is no 'teenager'.  The whole thing is transparent and disingenuous.  Some of the language, moreover, reminds me of the character of Amon Göth in Schindler's List.  Clio the Muse 22:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Clio, everything is patently obvious to you. You have claimed before to be able to recognize intelligence when you see it, and there has been one time when you said a proposal was "nonsensical!" and you agreed with Jack that it was nonsensical, only for him to respond one minute later that he actually supported the proposal. There has been one instance when you called a proposal ludicrous, only to admit later that you might not quite understand the proposal. A.Z. 22:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A.Z., why the random attack on Clio? Scratch that—I don't want to invite a further discussion or a rant.  Try to stay on topic, and don't pick fights or take shots. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not an attack, not a fight, don't really know what's a shot. It was just criticism, for the benefit of Clio, other users, and Wikipedia. I won't stop that. A.Z. 22:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I crossed my attempt at constructive criticism now, since no-one seems to have learned anything from it. A.Z. 00:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now I have uncrossed it because I don't think that the fact that no-one learned anything from it justifies it being crossed. A.Z. 00:38, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Curiously, the poster's IP address is registered to a pharmaceutical company in Nanjing.  --Lambiam 22:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Good call, Bielle.  It was an obvious troll, albeit better written than the usual we see around here.  If it comes back, kill it with fire.  TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is curious, Lambiam. Is the company a US/UK/Aus/Can/ branch with a bored ex-pat at the keyboard, I wonder?  And thank you, Clio the Muse and TenOfAllTrades, but I am better with venom than with fire. Bielle 22:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I can manage both!  Clio the Muse 22:46, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Could simply be an open proxy. Servers in developing countries don't tend to be very well set up or monitored sadly and open proxies in developing countries are not an uncommon occurence. Using an open proxy is not that hard, many script kiddies can do it, finding one that isn't blocked is perhaps more difficult but don't really require a great deal of knowledge, just luck and time Nil Einne 12:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't necessarily even have to be in a developing country.  I've found and blocked at least one open proxy with a .mil hostname.  —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 00:04, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

text: This may be superfluous, but I also want to commend Bielle for this action. Even if the initial "hunch" about the underlying facts was not 100% accurate (who knows) the action taken reflected sagacity, a proper balancing of competing interests, and good judgment. dr.ef.tymac 23:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I liked that she acknowledged (by the way I always search this word in Google before I use it, since I never learned how to properly speel it); anyway, as I was saying, I liked that she acknowledged my serious answer and my good faith. A.Z. 23:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, good dr.ef.tymac; you are very kind.  Never worry about an appearance of a superfluous number of specific compliments. For most of the world, compliments are thin on the ground, and thus a modest profusion from time to time helps to offset the general void. Bielle 00:00, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black people-God's Joke 

message: Were here and here; removed here and here. --Steve Summit (talk) 22:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The latter now being discussed on my talk page, perhaps to and now returned to the RD. --Steve Summit (talk) 22:41, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  removed two dubious questions 

message: Could someone please explain to me what is going on here?  Clio the Muse 22:09, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now gone, I see.  Thanks, whoever! Clio the Muse 23:28, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  April Fool Heading 

message: Ummm, any ideas about displaying the shortcut box so that it doesn't get swept away during archiving? - hydnjo talk 00:55, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The only "swept away" problem I've noticed is that it gets pushed down "below the fold" by the RD boilerplate text (that is, by the expansion of ).  The archiver certainly isn't sweeping them away!  (Or did it by mistake, and I ditn'd notice?) —Steve Summit (talk) 00:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, maybe I'm missing something here. This is what I'm talking about. Yet if you go to WP:RD/C you'll not find (I think) the shortcut box that I added at 23:05, on 17 July 2007. Help me if I'm missing something here but as I see it it's the same problem as (way) before; the shortcut box lasts only as long as the archiving of the date that the shortcut was installed. - hydnjo talk 01:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The old archiver might have had trouble with shortcut boxes, but the current archiver doesn't touch them: see e.g. here and here.  The shortcut box at the computing desk was deleted (not by the archiver) on July 27. —Steve Summit (talk) 01:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ouch! I apologize for not being more thorough before raising this non-issue; I only looked at the computer desk and made this mistake. Thanks Steve for doing the research that I should have done and thanks for the restoration. _ hydnjo talk 14:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're welcome!  (No problem.) --Steve Summit (talk) 17:48, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Shortcut boxes

message: The reference desk process helps the growth and refinement of Wikipedia by identifying areas that may need improvement.  If an article that could answer a question is lacking the relevant information, look for a way to work the information into the article.  This provides a lasting value to the project.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#Looking_for_an_article_.231
--Savedthat 05:02, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes...? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 12:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Savedthat is asking for someone to create the article. Whenever a question prompts a volunteer to notice a particular lack of information on the encyclopedia and add the missing info to article space, this is a cause for celebration. WP:RDAC is one attempt to bundle and encourage these efforts. WP:REQUEST is another place where you can ask for missing articles. (Simply repeating the question won't create the article as if by magic, the "look for a way to work the information into the article" is directed at every user here, including the questioner. :-) ) ---Sluzzelin talk 18:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Purpose of the desk (help)

message: Wikipedia as a whole has been discussed and critiqued a great deal in the media. I'm just wondering if anyone is aware of any media attention or critique focusing on the RefDesk in particular. Serinmort 04:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not that I am aware of. Though I seem to recall that a question addressed at the desk led to an error being corrected in the New York Times, when a regular contacted them. Also, I believe one of our regulars may be being interviewed for an article in the near future, so perhaps that will lead to some media discussion. Rockpocket 05:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Really, who is it? A.Z. 05:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The person may prefer to remain anonymous, so I'll leave it to them to identify themselves should they wish to. Rockpocket 05:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK. A.Z. 06:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, the approach is on my 'public space', Rockpocket, but I thank you for your consideration.  The said 'interview' has now been done, incidentally.  Clio the Muse 06:03, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh, it was Clio the Muse. She had been my second guess, right after Rockpocket himself. A.Z. 06:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Would it be appropriate to ask just where and when would the article be available to the public? I'd really be interested in reading it! Serinmort 18:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was for a French periodical by the name of L'Histoire.  I have no idea if they will use what I wrote or not, or when they will use it.  It's really no big deal.  Clio the Muse 22:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The magazine has an article: L'Histoire. A.Z. 23:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  RefDesk in the Media 

message: I think that the reference desk is comparable to the game at Wikipedia talk:Sandbox/Word Association. When I read the arguments to keep the game when it was nominated for deletion, I thought they could be used to save the reference desk as well, should someone suggest its deletion. A.Z. 04:46, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The various deletion discussions are indeed interesting. One of the things that has preserved the Word Association game is that it is in the sandbox, where a bit of silliness is expected. Another is that it seems to genuinely aid building of the encyclopedia, unlike the other games and variants which were deleted. On top of this, note that later deletion discussions only emerged after the game started sprawling over many pages. It became too big. Many of those pages were deleted. Skittle 20:27, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the fact that it helps building the encyclopedia is what saved the reference desk so far. I hope it will never be moved to the sandbox. A.Z. 22:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OMG! Salvation is us. - hydnjo talk 22:42, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't get it, despite the links. A.Z. 23:02, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

text:  This might be a good opportunity to note that I have been recording exactly how the Ref Desk has contributed to the encyclopedia, here. I suggest we direct anyone who asks what good the Desk does there in future. Much of the content and translation into articlespace has been the good work of Clio and Ghirla. I urge anyone who significantly improves an article in response to a question, or even as a subsequence of reading a question, to add the appropriate templates to the question and talkpage. That way I can keep track of what the Ref Desk has contributed. Alternatively, feel free to drop me a note on my talkpage. Rockpocket 07:13, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  At this point there's no question in my mind that (a) the [1] primary purpose of the Reference Desk is to improve the encyclopedia, and (b) it's working quite well at this, but also (c) the side benefits of [2] helping people and [3] enjoying ourselves are working well as well.  So it's a win-win-win situation, and I don't imagine any attempt to eliminate the Reference Desks (if anyone was silly enough to try) would get very far.  But having actual, concrete documentation of the articles which have been improved is a very nice ace in the hole, so it's great that the RDAC folks are doing what they're doing. —Steve Summit (talk) 00:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Word association and the purposes of the reference desk 

message: It should be דלפק ייעוץ & not דלפק יעוץ. Please fix it. GOER 17:38, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. By the way, the link is actually in the template Wikipedia:Reference desk/RD header which is not protected. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 19:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually, that wasn't correct. The hebrew equivalent of the Reference desk is :he:ויקיפדיה:הכה את המומחה, where :he:ויקיפדיה:דלפק ייעוץ is the equivalent of the Help desk. I fixed it to the correct destination. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 19:26, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Hebrew link 

message: Following a query on my talk page, I just corrected my own answer to my own question in the archives! See here. I feel like I'm caught in some recursive storyline here... Seriously, is correcting the archives  like that the normal thing to do? Carcharoth 14:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see any problem with continuining to edit threads after they have been archived. In fact, that was a great idea. Now we have more than five days to address the questions! A.Z. 02:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Seconded.  I pretty regularly add to archived threads.  The additions probably won't be seen by the original poster (or perhaps by anybody), so if they're frivolous they're not worth it, but if they substantially improve the completeness of correctness of an archived answer, then swell! (And see below.) —Steve Summit (talk) 02:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think they're gonna be seen from now on. If the archives are alive, they get more interesting! A.Z. 03:00, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean by "from now on"?  Has something just changed? —Steve Summit (talk) 03:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This section brought our attention to the fact that you people are editing the archives. I had no idea that people were doing that, and I guess I wasn't the only one. A.Z. 03:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay.  (But who's "us people", and who are y'all?) —Steve Summit (talk) 03:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Carcharoth and you are you people so far, but I think there are more of you, editing the archives. Me and others are all talk page regulars. A.Z. 03:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I edit the archives too although I've never gone that far back yet. And I agree there's nothing wrong, provided you don't change something especially in such a way that makes other comment confusing. Simply adding a response or saying ooops I was wrong is fine. As we sometimes direct question askers to the archives, it's probably going to be occasinally useful at least 10:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correcting archives 

message: I just noticed that the whole "urinal etiquette" thread got removed.  I thought it was pretty silly, too, and I probably would have deleted the question myself if I'd noticed it before it got so many answers. But it did get a lot of answers, so apparently plenty of people thought it was interesting, and if so, one of you might like to restore it. —Steve Summit (talk) 03:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. A.Z. 03:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is quite interesting, by the way. I didn't know that chatting at the urinal was seen as unproper for men in other places/cultures. Where I live it's common. A.Z. 03:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - a reasonable question, asked in a reasonable way, with an interesting and enlightening set of responses. Replies were based on personal experience, but this will generally be the case with any question about etiquette, custom or usage. No good reason for deletion. Gandalf61 12:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  urinal etiquette 

message: I just noticed that there's a new talk-page-comment-signing bot, SineBot, filling in for or replacing the defunct HagermanBot.  (See discussion here.) It's in beta, but do we want to think about asking it to monitor the RD's too? —Steve Summit (talk) 01:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do. A.Z. 01:39, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean you support using it to sign the pages? Nil Einne 10:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Ironically I came here because I just noticed it too and wanted to recommend it. I support using it to monitor the RD, will help out Scsbot amongst other things Nil Einne 10:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  new signing bot available 

message: There are two separate problems being discussed here:
* Should there be a 'no medical advice' rule - and what should it say?
* What do we do when someone infringes on the rule?
The first question should be moot.  It has been discussed fully in the past - and the rule we have is the result of some kind of consensus.  As such, I'm not interested in discussing it further.  The second question is the problem at hand.  Even though I posted a strong warning on the thread (Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#Odd_vision_problem), people are STILL offering medical diagnoses in response to the guy with the blurry vision - we now have astigmatism, kerataconus and cataracts - as well as migranes.  My warning didn't even slow them down.  This isn't about correctness of advice given or the qualifications of the respondants or the verifiability of what they say or what the OP will or will not do in response to the advice.  It's about enforcement of a rule when a clear breach has occurred.
If a simple warning would work - that would be perfect - but it plainly doesn't - just look at the thread and you'll see.  So do you abandon a rule because it's unenforcable by a simple "Please don't do that"?  No!  If you did then we'd be allowing linkspam and all sorts of other nastiness that carries on despite warnings.  When a rule is broken, we take action of some kind.  So how do you escalate the warning to the point where people will pay attention?  I guess some sort of stern warning in a big red templated box would be a reasonable escalation - it would certainly wake people up to the problem and would be more noticable.  Asking people not to do it on their talk: pages might help - but if they ignore the complaint in-thread, why would they pay more attention on their talk: pages?  I think handing out a 24 hour ban to repeat offenders would be OK - it's not a serious punishment - but it's something that clearly screams "THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR HERE".
But no matter what, we just need SOMETHING to make our respondants follow the rules here.
What sort of consensus can we get here?  How about everyone answer with one of the following options, escalating from minimum to maximum action.  Let's see what the highest level of action we have that pretty much everyone can agree on:
When someone offers medical or legal advice in contravention to the ref desk rules we should:
# Do nothing.
# Put a complaint into the thread then do nothing more. (This is current practice)
# Put a complaint into the thread and into their talk page, then do nothing more.
# Do the above repeatedly but do not escalate.
# Put a templated ("big red box") complaint into the thread, then do nothing more.
# Do one of the above - then consider some kind of 24 hour Wikiban for re-offenders.
SteveBaker 17:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Contrary to the subheading, this discussion seems to be, in part, a proposal for the creation of one or more policies. Therefore I propose that further discussion should be moved to WP:VPP so that it is more visible to the general Wikipedia community. Of dr.ef.tymac “Revised list” proposals 4, 5, and 6 would require some kind of policy or guideline in my opinion. --S.dedalus 21:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bielle expresses it well. It's about damage control. Just like with violations of WP:BLP, the immediate reaction (putting out the flames) is to remove the damaging posts from the desk. The long-term and sustainable measure (prevention) should be educating the careless and ignorant and discouraging their behavior. Polite explanations can work wonderfully here, while waving the big stick may ignite a whole new type of flaming (check November's archives, for instance.). The stick is a last resort, when assumption of good faith is spent, and the same editor's behavior has become disruptive. ---Sluzzelin talk 10:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: It's not about the nature of the rule - it's about enforcement.

message: I've spent all night in another CSSing frenzy trying to get the RD header to look right. I'm trying to force the bottom of the (new) Contribute box to be flush with the bottom of the fat left column if the left column juts down farther. I had it perfectly laid out (I think it's this diff, but it's impossible to tell without making it live) but when I added "height:100%" to the Contribute box, it wouldn't take up the rest of the very available empty space at the bottom of its perfectly sized container. So the container is flush, but of course it's invisible so that's not much good :) Anyway with the firefox DOM Inspector I verified that the space is in fact free, and belongs to the direct parent of the contribute link box, and that absolutely no margin settings or anything are interfering. But "height:100%" has no effect.. so I chalk it up to a bug in gecko, since this is pretty easy, obvious stuff that's just not working. It's been reverted to its original, more elegant table-based code. 
So yeah, that's what was going on if you happened to load a ref desk and the header was in bloody pieces all over the floor. 
As always, the header is barf in IE. Use firefox please! And websites always look better windowed, I use a 1100 pixel wide window out of a 1400 pixel screen.
Frustrated with the layout, I just decided to document it, so.. there you go --⁪frotht 04:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you propose I alter the IT policies of a 30,000+ employee corporation so that they'll let me use Firefox at work?  --LarryMac | Talk 13:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not my fault that internet explorer is non standards complaint. I didn't make it for firefox, I made it per web standards, which firefox follows. It still works fine in IE, but missing is my beautiful perfect-pixel precision. And what are you doing posting on the ref desk at work anyway? :) --⁪frotht 13:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's ummmm, research.  Yeah, that's the ticket.  The desks look fine in IE6, and I do appreciate the time you've spent working on all this.  Perhaps I'm just bitter because Slashdot (once again) mucked up their main page so that it barely works with IE.  Maybe I'll just go "work" from home today.  --LarryMac | Talk 13:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good lord you're right about slashdot in IE. Remember thiiis? :) I don't get the polls though. Lucky that you mentioned it now so that I had the opportunity to see my political views reigning supreme in this week/month/year/forever's poll --⁪frotht 20:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crazy desks 

message: These really look terrible! They're way off to the side and cause too much whitespace between the header and the table of contents. I removed them before but someone put them back- can I get some opinions?
Note that something will have to be done in any case about the whitespace. The RD header actually is meant to be called like:
 
 __TOC__
or
 
 =August Whatever=
with no spaces at all in between- the header puts a line of whitespace in automatically as part of the container page, and the table of contents creates line breaks around it anyway. But in addition to those 2, two more are manually added at the top of each RD! I can't remove them because my internet connection times out when I try to save an entire RD page, so can someone else remove all of that whitespace? --⁪frotht 04:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the size of the color wheel to the standard "icon up there" size and took off the text (I wasn't the one who came up with that thing! :o), is that better? I'll take a look at the shortcut boxes in a second --⁪frotht 04:53, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Much better (the color wheel problem) - thanks Bri - hydnjo talk 04:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: OK all shortcut boxes have been fixed up. I tried my best to get the shortcut link floated on the left side of the ref desk title bar, but it just wasn't happening so I moved it up to be positioned absolutely on the upper right. Looks good in firefox for all viewing font sizes and resolutions, looks all right in IE. How's safari? I hope my fingangling to get rid of whitespace doesn't affect archiving.. --⁪frotht 06:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "shortcuts" box 

message: My browser (Safari) and my preference (Classic) are and have been for some time now disallowing proper rendering at the upper right corner at all of the desks and this talk (color wheel overlaps). I bring this up at this time for the obvious reason; is there an end to this or is it to be perpetual? Thanks to Froth for initiating this bitching opportunity! Oh, and BTW, I plead guilty for those awful shortcut boxes. Please improve at will. - hydnjo talk 04:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the size of the color wheel to the standard "icon up there" size and took off the text (I wasn't the one who came up with that thing! :o), is that better? I'll take a look at the shortcut boxes in a second --⁪frotht 04:53, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Much better (the color wheel problem) - thanks Bri - hydnjo talk 04:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: OK all shortcut boxes have been fixed up. I tried my best to get the shortcut link floated on the left side of the ref desk title bar, but it just wasn't happening so I moved it up to be positioned absolutely on the upper right. Looks good in firefox for all viewing font sizes and resolutions, looks all right in IE. How's safari? I hope my fingangling to get rid of whitespace doesn't affect archiving.. --⁪frotht 06:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Even worse