Talk:Drake Circus/page 2

message: Will somebody try to explain to me why "The shopping mall has a UK post office address of 'Drakecircus Shopping Centre, Bretonside, Plymouth' and remains outside the official area known as Drake Circus. It is not to be confused with the area named Drake Circus." was deleted by WebHamster. The statement was verified by a number of sources not least the drake circus district ora mall - "separate and distinct from the shopping centre within the Drake Circus area" If he says it is irrelevant to the subject then why does he insist on a link to the shopping mall article from this article?
----  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.155.198 (talk) 12:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The sentence is also inaccurate, the address is not Bretonside (it's Charles Street, which connects to Drake Circus, not Bretonside). The postcode is irrelevant (and Bretonside is also PL4). Also the two sources mentioned are owned by the same person. Snigbrook 16:33, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which link are you referring to? The disambiguation link at the top? If it is then it's there because of the similarity in names and that's how Wikipedia works. ---- WebHamster 21:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

text: *From a combination of old maps, Google maps and the BBC website, it looks like Drake Circus was originally a road junction where the shopping centre is now and gave its name to the surrounding area. The map that has been cited as showing the boundary actually shows the boundary of the University Campus. As for the claim that the different postcode proves it's a separate area: the shopping centre is PL1, Bretonside is PL4 and Drake Circus is both PL1 and PL4. Additionally one side of the shopping centre is on Drake Circus, and Google Maps shows it separated from Bretonside by Exeter Street. From that evidence it appears that the Drake Circus area includes the shopping centre. Snigbrook 22:00, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Check the pictures at  - in particular the two taken from Old Town Street/New George Street looking northeast i.e. where the Drake Circus Shopping Centre is now. Snigbrook 22:07, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: DCSC deletion

message: I've been thinking of nominating this article for deletion on the grounds of lack of notability ever since it was created. As WebHamster noted elsewhere   this sub-district doesn't appear to have had anything written about it.
What is a "sub-district" anyway? The Subdistrict article here says that in England it was part of a Registration district, possibly only a valid term until 1911; but maybe that article is wrong. My 10-year-old street plan of Plymouth shows Drake Circus as no more than a roundabout and a road leading off it to another road, North Hill. It's clearly less significant than areas of the city such as Devonport or Pennycomequick, both of which are named on my old map. What makes Drake Circus notable? Has anything interesting ever happened here? How does it compare, for instance, to Union Street, Plymouth? (should that even be here?)
There's interesting and conflicting guidance about parts of cities - some guidelines and essays that I've come across are here, here, and here. I must admit that I haven't yet read them all fully, but I'm working on it.
What does everyone think - should this article be put up for AfD to further help define consensus on the notability of such sections of cities? All temperate comments are welcome. --Smalljim 13:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By coincidence I left a message with Hoary a short time ago suggesting exactly the same thing. I wanted to take advice first in case my nomination could be construed as bad faith and/or trolling. I certainly think it should be nominated. It has no notability, it doesn't appear to have any historical significance. It's only a sub-district. The fact it contains part of a uni and a war memorial is insignificant as notability isn't inherited. Whilst googling I couldn't find any references to Drake Circus that weren't about DCSC. Either bin it or create an article for North Hill and merge (if North Hill itself is notable that is). ---- WebHamster 14:02, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because the first option isn't how things are done, i.e. specific articles aren't merged into generic ones, and the second option isn't likely. I'm sure the editors of the Plymouth article wouldn't be too impressed at this travesty being foisted on them. Easiest way is to nuke this one and leave the DCSC as is. Incidentally you need to get your terminology right, a "stub" is just a normal article that hasn't been expanded yet. It isn't a small part of a larger article. ---- WebHamster 17:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nicole 50dc may not be aware of how many shopping centres in this country already have articles. More later, I'm off to enjoy some fireworks. --Smalljim 19:03, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All the ones i checked were stubs.81.155.65.71 19:34, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

text: *It's amazing how all the things Nicole 50dc wanted to do to the page have now magically appeared as 81.155.65.71's edits. What an amazing coincidence. ---- WebHamster 01:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Notability

message: I will try and add some images of the tablets and the reservoirs shortly81.155.65.71 00:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whilst you're at it rewrite the text I had to delete. What you did use was a copyvio. You cannot just copy and paste text from other websites. ---- WebHamster 01:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reservoir

message: Currently checking the copyright on images. I will add some of my own after the memorial ceremony expected in April 2008.81.155.65.71 00:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bomb Shelter

message: Hello. You two still at it? You really deserve one another! While you've been bickering, I've produced a draft rewrite of the article based on verifiable information. It's at User:Smalljim/Drake Circus. This is in my user space, so don't edit it. You can comment on it here or on its talk page, but I repeat, it's not an article, it's my page and I'll revert any changes. I know it has rough edges and I will incorporate any sensible suggestions. I also know one of you won't like it, so, really, just don't bother me with all that unverified area stuff.
I invite the closing admin (pity him/her having to plough through all this!) to consider use of this draft as a possible outcome. --Smalljim 00:20, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Draft rewrite 

message: Before anyone disputes the fact that the college of Art is in Drake circus the link webhamster removed (because it seems their site returns a 404/missing for any external linking to a search result) was to the national archives. (Search terms are 'art college drake circus)
----  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicole 50dc (talk • contribs) 02:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: College of Art and Design

message: The reason the Planetarium's postal address is Drake Circus is because it has been allocated the post code PL4 8AA, which, if you search on the Royal Mail site, is the generic post code for the University under whose auspices the Planetarium lies. It's actually on Portland Square from what I can see. So it's looking very much like the fact that mail isn't delivered direct to it, rather it is delivered in a mail drop/box in the Uni. Strike one for the local. As for being in the "vicinity" of, well that's virtually a WP:WEASEL word. How far is a vicinity in metres? Google would only convert from feet or yards. ---- WebHamster 03:15, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Its location is directly opposite the local authority sign 'Drake Circus'. Should i simply publish an image showing this.Nicole 50dc 03:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Planetarium and bomb shelter

message: In this edit that you (Nicole 50dc) made to the article yesterday, you stated that Drake Circus occupies:
 the area in and around North Hill, Portland Square, Charles Street,
 Tavistock Place and the Western section of Regent Street.
This statement is central to the article, and it is unverified and disputed. You must have had a reference at hand when you wrote it. Please provide this reference. Smalljim 10:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Likewise the Levinsky building (I so keep accidentally calling it the Lewinsky, maybe 'cos the whole premise of this being an "area" sucks <g>) is described as "falling within" the Drake Circus area, whereas the citation provided for it describes it as "on the main Plymouth campus". There is no mention of Drake Circus. As I mentioned above, the revelation that the postal address of these places is Drake Circus is a misnomer. The main mail office for the university is on Drake Circus so that's where the mail goes, it doesn't necessarily equate that the buildings are actually part of the area too. To do so is pure WP:SYNTH. So far all research shows that it's the name of a short road with nothing concrete showing it to be an official area. ---- WebHamster 12:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I do wish you would read WP:SYNTH as all of the above is a perfect example of it. It isn't incumbent upon us to disprove it, it's the responsibility of the editor adding the info to prove it. To justify the description you will need an official description of the boundaries of the "area". If it was indeed an official area then this would be trivial to do. The fact that you are having to synthesise it is an indicator that there is no official definition of the area, which it turn means that there is no area. There is going to have to be some serious pruning of this article if no evidence is given. ---- WebHamster 12:39, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What does an official area mean? I repeat there is no 'official' area called Chinatown however we all know they exist and there are many articles in this encyclopedia. I have referred you to offical sign names, university web-sites, uk Gov arhcives, images of Drake Circus, commercial web-sites with Drake Circus in their name and/or address, an unbiased site that outlines a brief history, original evidence of the old drake Circus reservoir ect etc. Most maps are out of date as they do not reflect the changes made to this area in the past 12 months and those that do come from far from reliable or trusted sources.Nicole 50dc 13:15, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All councils have all their official areas mapped and given designated boundaries, so far there is no evidence to say that Drake Circus has a council designated definition. You can come with as many links as you like it makes no difference as what you are doing a synthesising a conclusion based on your own research. It doesn't matter what other articles contain or don't contain, they're irrelevant per WP:WAX which you have been pointed at before. Your truculence is not doing the article any favours, neither is your wilful disregard for the guidelines of WP. It doesn't matter what YOU want the article to contain or not contain, what matters is what the guidelines say it can contain. Whether you like it or not there is no evidence whatsoever that there is an officially designated area called Drake Circus. All that has been proven (per WP guidelines) is that there is a street so named. You strike me as an intelligent person and these are easy concepts so per Occam's Razor, the only assumption that remains is that you are being deliberately obtuse for some reason. Remember, before you start handing out the traditional accusations of commercial interests, Smalljim and myself are general editors with quite a number of edits under our collective belts, whereas you are a single purpose editor with only one interest, little WP experience and a whole lot of stubbornness. Our priority is maintaining the rules and standards of WP, so far that doesn't appear to be on your radar at all much less on a priority list. We have both spent considerable time on an article that is destined for deletion, we have done so because of the, albeit small, effect on WP that leaving it in the hands of irate locals would have. ---- WebHamster 13:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (edit conflict) Yup. You are clearly hoist by your own petard, Nicole 50dc. If you can't be bothered to read the guidelines here, that's your problem. Now - I suggest, WebHamster, that we leave the article as it is and let the closing admin decide its fate. I hope you approve of my latest draft rewrite, BTW. I'm off to do something more productive. --Smalljim 13:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are maps of the area to be found in all the various links to the University sites. Since both of you have resorted to insulting behaviour I refuse to answer or deal with any more of your trolling and deliberate disruption/sabotage of an article that clearly conflicts with your promo for a mall.Nicole 50dc 15:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't you mean our edits interfere with your promo of the Midas Homes project, or is 50@Drake Circus and "Nicole 50 DC" a big coincidence? ---- WebHamster 16:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

text: As it's an arbitrarily decided area I put it back in. You have not provided proof as to the boundaries. ---- WebHamster 16:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Existence of area remains unverified