Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Self-references to avoid

message: I reverted the addition of an exception to WP:SELFREF for list article criteria, and have started a discussion here. Feel free to join the discussion! — hike395 (talk) 13:08, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a new proposal on the table for resolving a contradiction between MOS:SELFREF and WP:SALLEAD. Please feel free to join in the discussion here. Thanks! — hike395 (talk) 11:56, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion of allowing self-reference in list article criteria 

message: At this revision of Judeo-Malay, a list of the numbers from 1 to 6 are given along with their romanized names in Judeo-Malay (along with a claim that they're also given in Malay, which they weren't, but I fixed that in a later revision). The list is introduced with "Below are the numbers of Judeo-Malay or Malay written in Hebrew characters by Rahamim Jacob Cohen." But the numbers "below" aren't written in Hebrew characters, their names are romanized. However, in the infobox is an image of the notebook page that is written in Hebrew characters and that is the source of the names that are romanized in the list.
My current revision is this. I've created a table and added the Standard Malay names of the numbers for comparison. The introduction is "Below are the numbers 1–6 in Judeo-Malay, transcribed from Cohen's notes, and in Standard Malay:". I'd like to specify that the numbers are romanized from the notebook page but I don't know how to reference it in a way that's in the spirit of avoiding self-references. I could write "romanized from the forms in Hebrew characters in the image in the infobox", but should the article give the an impression of being aware that is has an infobox?
I could remove the image from the infobox and put it in that section of the text. But then how would I refer to it? I can't write "the image to the right" because on a small mobile device it's going to be below, and I can't say "the image below" because on a desktop monitor it's probably going to be to the right. Largoplazo (talk) 22:10, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Referencing in-article images 

message: I noticed that the subsection was added several years ago but I disagree with "Neutral cross-references ( are permissible". In fact, I don't think they are ever permissible and are always better reworded. Are there any supporters? Iterresise (talk) 08:03, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree with you at all. We  use cross-references, especially between closely related articles that are the results of WP:LENGTH splits and WP:SUMMARYSTYLE treatment, and when two or more subjects can be considered aspects of the same topic but have their own separate articles. We've had hatnotes for this purpose since the earliest days of the project, and the less visually intrusive  for the same purpose for many years. "I don't think they are ever permissible" is nonsense on its face, since there is no rule against them. By definition, everything compliant with policy  permissible, per WP:EDITING, other than things subject to a specific rule prohibiting them. I'm not sure what the mania is for trying to micromanage every single thing people do here, but it's poisononous. It's taken years to undo a lot of useless prescriptivistic nonsense, that had nothing to do with creating a better encyclopedia, injected into many MoS pages by someone now topic-banned from them, and the last thing we need is another to take their place.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:45, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: What I disagree with is "often". Iterresise (talk) 12:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you haven't made any case for what's wrong with it. (And this does not seem to actually relate to your original opening statement, which was a claim that neutral cross-references are not "permissible" at all.) Anyway, it's routine for us to make edits like the one you provided a diff to, to moderate overly emphatic or prescriptive statements in MoS that do not need to be so absolute. (Many of them were injected several years ago by an editor who has since been topic-banned from MoS, and cleaning up after them has been a slow process.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:21, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: User:EEng: did you want to opine? I'm seeing some cases where a cross reference would make sense such as refering to "figure 1", "figure 2", etc. Iterresise (talk) 08:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I'll opine. My opinion is you better get over to WP:ANI#Iterresise's_MEATBOT_behavior_removing_template_from_articles,changing_DAB_page_layouts,_etc. and commit to undoing all these bullshit changes you've been making, or you're going to get blocked. EEng 11:11, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note that ..., It is important to ..., Surprisingly ..., Of course ...