Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 6

message: I have added a significant load of names of important opera singers such as Ludwig Weber, Ludwig Suthaus, Otto Edelmann, Anton Dermota, Gerhard Unger, Thomas Stewart, Robert Lloyd, Aage Haugland, Ferdinand Frantz, Franz Mazura, Hans Sotin, Franz Crass, Maria Stader, Edith Mathis, Hertha Töpper and more. All those articles are to be found on the german Wikipedia, and most of them on the french. RCS 15:58, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine - provided everyone added in is really notable. Moreschi 12:30, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, they are. It seems to be a common assumption that somebody who's not yet cited on en:wiki is not famous. Thomas Stewart - to take but one example - worked several times with Herbert von Karajan, Hans Knappertsbusch, Rafael Kubelik and Pierre Boulez. Ferdinand Frantz (another example) was Wilhelm Furtwängler's favourite Wotan and Rudolf Kempe's favourite Hans Sachs. Maria Stader was Ferenc Fricsay's favourite soprano. You can check them all up on de:wiki. RCS 14:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: RCS's singers are indeed worthwhile (welcome to the Opera Project RCS!). Some of the earlier singers can be checked in The Record of Singing. There are still many, many notable singers that lack articles (e.g. in the same group, Maria Reining, Elisabeth Höngen, Anton Dermota, Julius Patzak, Peter Anders,  Erich Kunz, and Paul Schoeffler). - Kleinzach 17:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've already quoted Dermota, one of the greatest tenors of his times (by the way, i am the author of :de:Anton Dermota and :fr:Anton Dermota as well as of 70 other singer biographies on both those Wikis). Cheers, RCS 17:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The full list is here and here. Just help yourself ! RCS 17:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's great. Are you intending to do them in English? - Kleinzach 17:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, i'm not fluent. I've been waiting for someone to pick those names up by himself, but i've given up. Imagine that : i wrote the german and the french articles about Elizabeth Harwood and Philip Langridge several months before some english-speaking chap did it for the english speaking encyclopaedia ! There is a big, a huge deficit on en:wiki if you compare the total number of articles and the number of articles on opera singers, especially on english-speaking ones ! Still nothing about :de:Robert Lloyd, for instance, one of the most versatile singers of his generation - this is so sad ! Sorry to get emotive but i hav to let my frustration out. Please translate my articles, or use them as a base for stubs. Thank you so much ! RCS 19:10, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I do. But whenever an article is present in both languages - french and german - the german version is more complete. The Germans just won't let you write only a few lines ! ;-) RCS 20:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I'm just going through your list, so now I've done Hermann Uhde and Ludwig Weber. Someone tell me to stop if they're too bad. I'd translate the German ones, but sadly my German simply isn't good enough, although I will look at them. Mak (talk) 20:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll volunteer to do Robert Lloyd (tomorrow, not today).  I don't know much German, but it's easy to work out what is being said, and I have a couple of reference-books (and a whole lot of programmes!) with more info on him.  BTW, he was born on 2 March, not 2 May, 1940, according to both my books.  --GuillaumeTell 21:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I translated Robert Lloyd (singer) quite easily (with a little help from ), but left out the POV sentence about his being the most important British bass since Raimund Herincx.  I'll fix the Sadlers Wells link (should be ENO) and add some other details later today.  --GuillaumeTell 11:07, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I prefer to go through the translations once they are made and add or correct some details. Look at Ludwig Weber, i've added a whole section now. I just listened to him singing Gurnemanz in Knappertsbusch's 1951 Parsifal yet again - wow, there has NEVER been a better singer for this part ! And he was already past his prime - unbelievable ! RCS 07:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New names on the missing singers list 

message: Most of the lyric-whatever categories have now been deleted. What about these two? Is there any reason to keep them? I think they started life as Italian genres but have become random collections. - Kleinzach 01:20, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lyric comedy is already empty. I would de-populate Lyric drama. Marc Shepherd 16:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lyric comedy is now up for deletion (BTW re-naming/re-directing is not an option for cats.) If anyone wants to help de-populate lyric drama i'd appreciate the help! - Kleinzach 06:04, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. We can now put the cat on CFD. Moreschi 18:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I have put it up for deletion. - Kleinzach 02:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[:Category:Lyric comedy]] and [[:Category:Lyric drama]]

message: Sorry for such an easy question, but to join the project, do I just add my username to the list of contributers? --Doublea 02:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you add your name to the list of "participants" in the 5th section of the main project page. Regards. - Kleinzach 02:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joining the Project 

message: Non-notable neologism used briefly by a few critics to describe a few operas.  Better to mention it (or not) on the opera articles.  De-prod if you object.  Fireplace 12:22, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine by me. Moreschi 14:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prodded [[CNN opera]] 

message: User:Doublea has apparently got a list of most-performed operas from somewhere and has been busy adding the information to lots of articles (I assume:  I just looked at the two - Aida and The Barber of Seville - that are on my watchlist, and at his/her list of contributions, which are all edits to opera entries).  I put a "citation required" sticker on those two and a note on her/his User Page suggesting a) joining the Project and b) posting here with further and better particulars about the source of the information.  I await developments.  --GuillaumeTell 21:16, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if the information is up to date, surely that data changes regularly. Fireplace 21:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I didn't cite the information, but I posted the link to the website once on one of the opera pages, and it got deleted.  Anyways, the website is: http://www.operaworld.com/cornerstones/index.shtml  .  It's called Cornerstones, and it is a collaberation between Boston Lyric Opera and The Minnisota Opera companies (on behalf of Opera America); they counted all of this, so I think it's interesting for readers to have these statistics. Sorry once again for not citing or anything. I'm sorry if these don't follow the Wikipeda regulations. By the way, I posted this information on all twenty operas on the list.--Doublea 21:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the link, but Cornerstones doesn't seem to say where they got their figures from or what they are based on or what the figures actually are.  Maybe we should ask them.  --GuillaumeTell 00:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This appears to be an initiative by the Boston Lyric and Minnesota (both rather minor companies) rather than Opera America as a whole, also no time period or actual stats are cited. For their purposes - the promotion of opera in America - it's all reasonable, but here we are presenting facts from a NPOV and an international perspective here so perhaps it is not appropriate unless our phrasing is non-committal (e.g. "One American website associated with companies X and Y claims that Aida is the 16th most performed opera in north America' (or whatever). - Kleinzach 01:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I e-mailed them to get some figures, and I'm hoping for a reply. I'll let you guys know if they give me any. --Doublea 02:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: How about putting the information here? Or is it substantial? And is it unpublished? - Kleinzach 03:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The representative of OperaAmerica sent me a Word document containing the Top 10 to 20 operas per year since 1980 according to the number of times the opera was produced per year in North America.  I can add up the number of productions; it wouldn't be a problem. However, the only problem is that it is OperaAmerica statistics, so I'm not sure  I can give the information without any sort of consent given to Wikipedia by Opera America. --Doublea 15:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One way to handle this would be to do an article about Opera America and put the information there. - Kleinzach 16:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that would be a good idea, and we can put the list there.  However, wouldn't Wikipedia still need to get rights from Opera America in order to release the figures?  Becuase it's not like they gave me permission to put those numbers in public, and it's not like they ever put those numbers on their website for everyone to see.  You guys know better than me about this....--Doublea 22:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd recommend going ahead and doing the article with links to the website etc., then tell OA about the article, asking for extra info. also for permission to put their data there. If they don't want their list on WP you can then ask for a public link. There are a number of other organizations in the world like OA and it would be good to cover them as they have a lot of vital information. OA is actually one of the smallest of them, the most important is the Deutscher Bühnenverein. - Kleinzach 03:45, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright then.  I'll start the article on Opera America then, just talking about the mission statement, who they are, etc.  I'll then ask for permission to use the figures they gave me.  If they don't, I'll put the list they provide from the website on. --Doublea 04:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I created the OPERA America page.  It could do with some editing though.... --Doublea 23:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's great. Will you refer back to this article from the nth most popular operas etc.? Also is there a special reason for putting OPERA in caps? It's normally discouraged on WP. - Kleinzach 02:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll refer back to this article on the others I put the information in.  The only reason why I put opera in caps was because that's how they refer to themselves on their own website (OPERA America).  I don't know otherwise. --Doublea 02:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added reference to OPERA America to all articles I think which mention the statistic. --Doublea 02:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's good. Re OPERA, the problem is that it looks like an acronym. I think we need to change it to Opera. Another thing is that we need to add it to a category. I have put in 'Opera' as a temporary measure but perhaps we need a new category such as 'Opera organizations' or 'Opera institutions'. What do other people think? - Kleinzach 02:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll change all the capital opera s to 'normal operas.... --Doublea 03:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I've reversed the pages using cut and paste, so OPERA America is now the redirect. - Kleinzach 03:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  I wanted to do that, but I thought the discourage the use of cut and paste. --Doublea 03:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's right - but I am not sure what you are supposed to do! In this case it's not controversial anyway . . . - Kleinzach 23:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  nth most performed opera in North America