Talk:Mortal Error

message: http://web.archive.org/web/20021218033643/people.fix.no/pudding/burton/kennedy/friendly.html reads in part JFK did not die from an assassin�s bullet, but as the result of an accident when a Secret Service agent�s gun went off by mistake and shattered the president�s skull, killing the respected Kennedy outright. Oops!
That's a sensational claim, but it's one that Mortal Error is very careful not to make. Rather, Meninger reports Donahue's conclusion that the other shots (whether fired by Oswald or not) had already mortally wounded Kennedy before the head shot. Andrewa 09:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, it seems you are correct here. Your memory jives with the book. When I found this article, I can see why Hickey sued. It made him look really bad. - Thanks, Hoshie 12:37, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But that's just the point... Hickey didn't sue the people who did imply he killed Kennedy. Hickey sued the publisher of a book that (despite the title) explicitly says that he  didn't. His action, which, unlike the settlement, has been published, makes interesting reading too. Andrewa 23:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More misinformation

message: *Retired agent paid undisclosed sum over book that claimed he shot JFK- AP, 1998
This link requires account creation and login, albeit for free, but you are required to provide an email address at least. I counsel against having such links on principle. Andrewa 13:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I found the link via archive.org; by passing the wall. 24.25.42.125 21:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great stuff! Great link. Andrewa 06:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed text

message: I think this should go to AfD at least. Merge and redirect to John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories#Alternative gunmen is a possibility, or it may even may scrape into Wikipedia:Notability (books) and if not perhaps it should. The Kennedy assassination and the speculation surrounding it both continue to be the subject of an enormous amount of serious research.
Having said that, I do note that neither Donahue's theory nor this book describing it have attracted a great deal of support or even attention, and while I'm surprised at this, perhaps there is a case for deletion in view of it. Andrewa (talk) 16:29, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: PROD

message: (in reply to #More misinformation above Andrewa (talk) 20:42, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is the relevant passage from the text (the ellipsis ... in the middle shows where I have omitted some text): ...the bullet that struck Kennedy's neck had cracked one of his vertabrae... if Kennedy would have survived the trauma at all - something Lattimer doubted - it probably would have been only as a vegetable quadraplegic. (p. 199) Andrewa (talk) 18:42, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Autopsy X ray 

message: Excellent program that provides some new material, I watched it earlier tonight.
I was disappointed that McLaren didn't ask the question of whether Kennedy might have survived the shots Oswald fired, But apparently he does in the book. Also disappointed that he didn't include a quote from LBJ to the effect that he was more scared of being shot by the Secret Service "like last time" than by another assassin, that quote is in Menninger's book somewhere. 
See also
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/television/did-a-hungover-secret-service-agent-accidentally-shoot-jfk/article15198269/
http://www.calgaryherald.com/entertainment/television/documentary+suggests+secret+service+killed/9114547/story.html
and there will undoubtedly be more. Andrewa (talk) 13:04, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Smoking Gun 

message: The main differences between McLaren's approach and Donahue's is that McLaren is an investigator, while Donahue is an expert witness in a particular field. So for example, McLaren pursues the question of the eleven witnesses (seven of them Secret Service) who testified to smelling gunpowder fumes, and the impossibility that these were from Oswald's shots. Donahue does not pursue this line of enquiry, as it's not ballistics related. McLaren's work could also be described as a conspiracy theory in that he strongly suggests a Secret Service cover-up, while one of the refreshing things about Donahue's work is that he doesn't speculate on this, although it's hard to escape that conclusion from his evidence. Rather, he sticks to his topic.
McLaren on the other hand omits from the documentary Donahue's work on the chemical composition of the bullet that struck Kennedy in the head, which showed that it was not Oswald's ammunition but was again consistent with AR15 ammunition. This may be in McLaren's book, I suspect it would be, and was only omitted from the documentary because of time restrictions. 
None of that is a criticism of McLaren's work. He is an expert in his field too. It's just that his field is broader in scope than Donahue's. Andrewa (talk) 18:38, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: New material

message: Hickey, for his part, never spoke publicly about the gunsmith’s allegations and died six years after Donahue on Feb. 25, 2005, at age 81, according to Social Security records. No obituary or death notice has ever surfaced. https://mokan9997.medium.com/hidden-in-plain-sight-4761be7b8115
How do we get access to these Social Security records? How do we link them to the agent, rather than to the other people named George Hickey? Andrewa (talk) 08:14, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The Social Security Death Index has such information. It is not as accessible as it used to be, primarily now via paid genealogical membership websites. This site currently enables searching data through May 2012 at no cost. A search by name and death year provides multiple results, though only one matches the middle initial and full birth/death dates provided in this article (plus a last residence in Maryland, the home location mentioned in the source above). —ADavidB 14:19, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: A new source

message: I've had another go  at contrasting this theory to what is normally called a conspiracy theory. See also #Not a conspiracy theory above. Comments welcome. Andrewa (talk) 19:52, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conspiracy theorists again 

message: Article currently  reads in part with the documentary noting the direction of a breeze that day made it possible the gunpowder had originated from the vicinity of the motorcade. I think what the documentary actually says is far stronger, it says that it's not possible that these fumes came from Oswald's shots, owing to the breeze. Andrewa (talk) 11:18, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this accurate 

message: Australian investigator Colin McLaren created a 90-minute documentary and book McLaren, Colin. JFK: The Smoking Gun,   based on and supporting Donahue's theory, both titled JFK: The Smoking Gun. The documentary aired on Australian and American television on November 3, 2013. The documentary features re-enactments, archival footage, and new interviews with Menninger, with Donahue's daughter, and with witnesses to the shooting.  A one-hour abridged version of this documentary aired in the UK on November 13, 2013, entitled JFK's Secret Killer: The Evidence.
McLaren reconstructs Donahue's ballistics tests as described in Mortal Error, placing the second gunman exactly where Agent Hickey was positioned.
:No, McLaren reconstructs some of them. From memory he uses only one plaster skull, for example. Donahue used two, and this is all clearly described in the book. There's a great deal in the book that isn't in the documentary, obviously. Andrewa (talk) 06:16, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That probably belongs in the synopsis section rather than here. (Yes, I think I put it there! Changed my mind if so.) Andrewa (talk) 06:16, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

text: Clumsy phrasing and not correct. The type of ammunition (high-velocity frangible vs medium velocity full jacket) and the two different calibres are two separate issues. These are two different pieces of evidence that two different weapons are involved. Andrewa (talk) 06:16, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

text: No, that completely misinterprets the use of the skull. The skull was used for a trajectory analysis. That's a third issue, separate from the calibre and type of ammunition. Andrewa (talk) 06:16, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

text: I'm beginning to think we should avoid the use of the phrase circumstantial evidence altogether. I'm only just discovering what this phrase means to a lawyer, and suspect that the average reader has no better idea than I did. Andrewa (talk) 06:16, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

text: True, but needs a ref. As it stands it's WP:OR. The point that witnesses did claim that gunshots came from the grassy knoll and none claimed that any came from the follow-up car is important. Mind you, one agent did say that he saw Hickey with the AR-15 and first thought that he had fired at someone. Andrewa (talk) 06:16, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

text: In that nobody speaks above, I've had a go at a new version below. It doesn't address all the issues but it's a start. Comments? Again, please use indenting, and sign them. Andrewa (talk) 14:32, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Which turns out to have been a waste of time,  unfortunately. Andrewa (talk) 19:58, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Copy for annotation

message: Australian investigator Colin McLaren created a 90-minute documentary and book McLaren, Colin. JFK: The Smoking Gun,   based on and supporting Donahue's theory, both titled JFK: The Smoking Gun. The documentary aired on Australian and American television on November 3, 2013. The documentary features re-enactments, archival footage, and new interviews with Menninger, with Donahue's daughter, and with witnesses to the shooting.  A one-hour abridged version of this documentary aired in the UK on November 13, 2013, entitled JFK's Secret Killer: The Evidence.
McLaren reconstructs some of Donahue's ballistics tests as described in Mortal Error, reproducing one of his plaster skull tests, and also other evidence that the head shot was fired by Hickey rather than by Oswald. He displays the photograph of Agent Hickey holding up an AR-15 while standing inside a Secret Service follow-up car as it speeds behind the Presidential limousine with Secret Service Agent Clint Hill on its rear, which was crucial to Donahue's decision to have his work published Mortal Error p.108  and appears on the front cover of Mortal Error.  
The apparent inconsitency in calibre between the round that struck Kennedy in the head and Oswald's rifle, the composition of the bullet fragments left in Kennedy's skull, and the difference between the behaviour of the round that struck Kennedy in the head with that of Oswald's second shot, which travelled straight through the President and into Governor Connally, are also mentioned. 
Circumstantial evidence put forward by the documentary stated how an agitated Secret Service chief James Rowley admitted, at the Warren Commission, that AR-15s were no longer used by his organisation inside protection vehicles since the assassination, and that classified Secret Service documents on the assassination were destroyed just one week prior to being handed over to the Assassination Records Review Board in 1995.
Though it highlights eyewitness testimony concerning the origin of the gunshots (some saying the Texas School Book Depository, some saying the Grassy Knoll, some saying both), the documentary did not make mention of any eyewitnesses who saw a gunshot coming from the Presidential motorcade. Reference was, however, made to several bystanders in Dealey Plaza who did recall the smell of gunpowder immediately after the shooting, with the documentary noting the direction of a breeze that day made it impossible the gunpowder fumes had originated from Oswald's shots.
Donahue died in 1999. In the documentary, his daughter Colleen says he was always surprised that his work received so little attention. At the time of his death he was working on another book on the same topic.
 And again signing mainly just to keep the bots happy. Andrewa (talk) 14:55, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This subsection turns out to have been a waste of time,  unfortunately. Andrewa (talk) 19:56, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: New version

message: This section mainly to keep the <ref> tags happy.   And again signing just to keep the bots happy. Andrewa (talk) 05:57, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Reflist

message: I've now waded through JFK: The Smoking Gun Kindle Edition,  (TSGK from here on). Interesting stuff, and gives a very different perspective to the documentary. A much better source than the documentary IMO.
But the contrast with Mortal Error (ME from here on) is enormous. TSGK gives no bibliography or endnotes, for example, while ME dedicates pp. 335-350 to detailed endnotes, chapter by chapter, with full bibliographic details. We are left to guess where most of the material in TSGK came from. TSGK itself describes ME as the too technical, yet wonderfully detailed paperback about Donahue, an unassuming expert (Kindle Locations 3860-3861 of 4447). One (very unsympathetic) reviewer  has even claimed that there's no index in TSG, let alone endnotes or a bibliography, so I can only guess that they're reviewing the print version, as the Kindle version does have an index (from location 3942 of 4447 - and of course a Kindle version doesn't really need an index anyway as the text is searchable, which is even stranger, and this index is by page numbers, which the Kindle version doesn't have, so the index is no use at all there, which is strangest still - this index must surely have also been published somewhere where it was of some use). 
There's a lot of new material in TSGK, but most of it it would be difficult to verify, again in stark contrast to ME. Some sources are named in the text of TSGK, but not very specifically, and there are no bibliographic details of them at all.
Having said that, TSG is probably the most reliable secondary source we have on ME, and certainly the most comprehensive yet. The dedication reads To Howard Donohue, a man who epitomised the very reason we demand dedicated and precise forensic science at the forefront of unravelling complex crime. Despite his arduous 25-year study he was snubbed and ultimately silenced by official suits and lawsuits. His ballistic expertise, his astute opinions and his skill live on through my story. (Kindle Locations 18-20 of 4447)
Whether ME itself is a secondary or a primary source regarding Donahue's work is another interesting question. Andrewa (talk) 23:48, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Smoking Gun - Kindle version 

message: The Smoking Gun has been rightly criticised for providing very sketchy information as to its sources... no footnotes or endnotes, no bibliography, a few in-text references but not many, and no bibliographic details even there.
I thought it important in view of all of that to point out  that Mortal Error is relatively scholarly in that sense at least, although otherwise that might well have been omitted from the synopsis and was at first. Andrewa (talk) 19:15, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Endnotes 

message: Looking again at this excellent research by , I think there is absolutely no doubt that Hickey died in 2005, and that there are sources that support this - much better sources in fact than the one originally given supporting the 2005 date. 
The only problem is, there are other sources that would otherwise be considered reliable that give the 2011 date. These are obvious cases of circular reporting, but it seems that there is no policy or guideline which allows us to disregard them on this basis, perhaps apart from wp:IAR. Andrewa (talk) 23:04, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Revisiting the circular arguments

message: :It is more than improbable that Hickey's gun would have been forced down by the sudden acceleration of the car.  In all likelihood, any acceleration of the car would have and did throw Hickey back and the gun would have been raised straight up or slightly backward due to inertia.  That there hasn't been any testing of this is rather surprising.  
:It's likely that Hickey's gun was fired and that would account for the smell of gunpowder, but it's a total reach to believe that his gun could possibly have been aimed at JFK.  Even if he had taken aim at the president, the acceleration of the car would have caused his aim to be deflected upward.  
:How to explain the smaller bullet hole in the skull?  Don't know.  How to explain the fragments in the skull and not from Ex 399?  399 went thru soft tissue and the other went into bone.  That's all I have.Longinus876 (talk) 13:12, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem?