Talk:John Norreys

message: The articles below are about the same person. Norreys it seems was the Tudor spelling which has mostly changed to Norris nowadays.
The John Norreys page was started 4 Sept 2005 by User:Wetman
The John Norris (soldier) page was started 2 Nov 2005 by User:Shtove
They should be merged. The second is the longer and User:Shtove has done most of the work on it. As I have only made a very small contribution so far I will stand back for the moment in case one of the major contributers feels inclined to make the merge. It does not seem to me to matter which way the merge is done. Obviously this will leave one article to become just a redirect to the other.
I will place this note on the talk pages of both articles.
Op. Deo 20:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not follow the usage of the DNB? --Wetman 22:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I said above that I did not have a strong view on which way the merge should be made. I have done some research (non-original I hope!) and have concluded that I now quite strongly prefer Norreys to Norris.
First I note evidence to use Norris rather than Norreys is provided by the respected historian Eric Ives whose 2005 paperback The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn I have studied. He has 60 references in the index to Henry Norris, who was John Norreys' grandfather and was executed by Henry VIII in 1536.  I note on a few of the referenced pages in the text that Ives has actually used the spelling Norreys - so the book must have been imperfectly edited to show Norris rather than Norreys. However, if Ives chose this spelling, it is an important and influential pointer to modern usage.
Now I turn to evidence for Norreys rather than Norris.
At  it says
Notes: The name Norreys has at least 2 potential derivations: one who came from the north or who lived in the north (there was a word "noreis" or "norreis" meaning a northerner), or from one who cared for others (the word "norrice" for nurse). There are also references to Noreis back in the 12° century and to a Robert le Noris in the 1297 Yorkshire Subsidy Roll.
This explains to me why there are so many Norris spellings to found in Tudor times, and Norreys should be regarded as a spelling variation that came into use in the prominent family of John Norreys, but not to any great extent elsewhere - hence all the Norrises.
That family of John Norreys used the version Norreys there is no doubt at all as the following shows:
John Norreys's signature clearly shows how he signed his name Norreys. (NB this webpage contains a typo Tattendon for yattendon which according to google was duely perpetuated on the web - partly by the original version of the article John Norreys) 
In the PCC will index  I found the following, which would be taken exactly from the spellings in the wills:
*Sir Francis Norreys or Lord Norreys of Ricott, Berkshire 31 January 1624  
*Sir Henrie Norreys or Lord Norreys of Rycott, Oxfordshire 02 July 1601  (John Norreys' father) 
*Sir Francis Norreys of Weston on the Green, Oxfordshire 07 September 1669  
*Robert Norreys, Mercer of London 08 May 1512  
*Henry Norreys, Gentleman of White Waltham, Berkshire 20 June 1605  
*James Earl of Abingdon Lord Norreys and Baron of Rycott of Oxfordshire 16 February 1700 
*James Earl of Abingdon Lord Norreys and Baron of Rycott 03 February 1700  
*Elizabeth Norreys, Spinster of Thame, Oxfordshire 19 August 1737 
*Mary Norreys or Norrys 11 December 1747   
*The Right Honorable Montague Earl of Abingdon, Lord Norreys and Baron of Rycote of Rycote , Oxfordshire 17 May 1855 
The nearest I have got to DNB so far is that the Berkshire history page, which uses John Norreys,  claims to be Edited from Leslie Stephens & Sidney Lee's "Dictionary of National Biography" (1891). However, I will make a journey next week to consult a paper copy of the new DNB (the online version is too expensive to subscribe to!)
Strangely, I know someone who spells his name Norreys. I shall have to ask him if he has a continuous descent from these Norreys. 
If no evidence can be found of the Norreys family actually changing their name to Norris then I would argue very strongly for the prefered use of Norreys in Wikipedia. As it is, the balance of evidence I have so far found, leads me to prefer the  merge  of John Norris (soldier) into this article rather than vice versa.
Op. Deo 13:06, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I now prefer the article title John Norreys over John Norris (soldier) 

message: In the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (2004) the article on John by D.J.B.Trim is under Norris, John (Norreys). There a separate crossref. under Norreys, John which just says "See Norris, John".
In its opening paras the article says "Although his surname is usually rendered Norris, he himself his mother and at least his brother always spelt it Norreys".
The other entries in ODNB for this family are all under the Norris spelling:  Norris, Sir Edward (c1550-1603) by Trim and Norris, Henry by E.Ives. But I have have already noted above that Ives plumped for Norris in his book on Anne Boleyn. Trim, who got his PhD in 2002, has followed the same modern fashion that Ives has, but at least he acknowledges that the original spelling was Norreys.
I think I shall investigate other authorities a little further. I want to see what the 1890s DNB said. Also there is according to the ODNB article a biography, Sir John Norreys and the Elizabethan military world, by John S Nolan (1997). I notice this bio is not referenced among the references on the John Norris (soldier) page. I shall take a look at it and check the two articles we have against this bio. It will take me a few days to do this.
Op. Deo 20:16, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just spotted the two posts above. In the longer article I relied principally on the 1922 DNB, and fleshed out his Irish career with other reading. My notes were taken in the early 1990's, so I wasn't aware of the Nolan biog (every Elizabethan has a biog these days). I believe most reference works use Norris, but if the family sought to distinguish itself by using Norreys, then the argument for following their usage is strong. I'm easy, so long as users looking for John Norris (soldier) are redirected to John Norreys. I'll be interested to see what changes may be made from a reading of Nolan - perhaps his continental career needs more detail? If Op Deo is undertaking this, then the merge should take place along with the new edits. I suppose nurse norris is related to nourish. Is Op Deo a rude anagram?--shtove 12:50, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There was quite a chunk in ODNB by Trim on the continental campaign, but I got distracted in looking at other articles so did not study it in detail. I will, when I go back to the library next week, and I will also study Nolan. As far as Op. Deo is concerned - it is neither an anagram nor rude. It is probably too difficult to waste time on, but one day someone might discover enough to see the answer. It is also possible a partial clue might appear within WP itself one day if some writes a relevant article! Op. Deo 14:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ODNB's spelling of name 

message: The article states that the expedition to Rathlin Island 1575 was "...under the command of Sir Francis Drake". This is not quite correct; the operation was under the command of the Earl of Essex. Drake's role was restricted to escorting the troop-ships to Rathlin, and to patrol the waters between Rathlin and the Scottish coast to prevent the Scots from interferring. 
( Source : John Sugden , “Sir Francis Drake” , Touchstone – Book ,
published Simon + Schuster,ISBN 0 – 671 – 75863 – 2)   86.41.251.1 00:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rathlin Island expedition