Talk:Anna Politkovskaya/Archive 1

message: Everybody knows it: Putin is a dictator and a mass murder who is committing terrible crimes. I would be very happy if Putin would be killed, because Putin's Russia (a fascist country), has become the worst threat - besides China and the militant Islam - for the free world today. This is just self-defense, not murder. And those who defend his actions (such as the user abakharev) are no better than those who justify any other crimes against humanity and should severely be punished, if not by the state or the international community, then by any resistance fighter who could do it. - A Voice from Free Europe.
:::: You forgot to mention Bush and Blair!  Or are they setting the world free? 201.19.130.147 03:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just ignore the russophobe.Ko Soi IX 14:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Putin

message: i changed the release year of "A Dirty War: A Russian reporter in Chechnya" from 1999 to 2003, source: the book --Dox 13:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  release date 

message: I am the author of the Economist website obituary of Anna cited in the article. If anyone has personal recollections or other material that they wish to share with me, please email me at edwardlucas (at) economist.com as soon as possible as I will be writing a more definitive version for this week's printed edition, deadline Tuesday. thanks Edwardlucas 20:38, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Economist 

message: The unsourced claim at the end of the Career section that Politkovskaya wrote "flattering" articles about Chechen Rebel/Terrorist leaders, including those responsible for Beslan, seems dubious. Maybe a deliberate attempt to discredit? Although I can't claim to have read these interviews, which I assume are likely to only be available in Russian language, I have read an article on the Observer (Sunday version of the Guardian) website which would directly contradict this. Tom Parfitt writes "Critics accused her of being partisan in her damning reports on the cruelty of Russian federal forces, but Politkovskaya did not hold back on criticism of the Chechen rebels' brutal tactics either." http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1890481,00.html
So I propose to change the article to suit and cite the above as a source.Harveyspeed 20:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea.  Before I changed it, it was even more blatantly POV. Dsol 21:33, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

text: She was actually once threatened by Basayev. --HanzoHattori 11:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Portrayal of Chechen Resistance Leaders

message: Why must there not be a black ribbon in this article? As soon as a black ribbon turns up, it is promtly removed. Camptown 21:01, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it is being seen by a number of editors, myself included, as both unnecessary and POV. Anna Politkovskaya was made of meat, and meat doesn't deserve a ribbon. --Adamrush 22:00, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So, what is exactly POV about it? -- tasc wordsdeeds 23:31, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the black ribbon article. It is used as a political statement. We will not clarify which statement is or not. What matters is that we try to write NPOV, referenced articles with as many true facts as possible. The black ribbon does not meet this purpose; it only succeeds to connect us with certain interests and groups. We don't want that and it is against the current Wikipedia policy. Try to stick to the facts. --Dead3y3 Talk page 00:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Black ribbon 

message: In the Reaction section of the article, a quote is provided from a guy named Alexander Mayorov.  Google doesn't turn up any people of significance with that name (and Google News turns up zero hits), and the citation provided is in Russian (which I don't speak).  Can someone clarify who this person is and why what he has to say merits a paragraph in this article, and at the very least check out that citation to see if it says what the article claims it says?  For all I know it could be an article with instructions of how to make Yankee Pot Roast.  --Neil916 (Talk) 06:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can confirm that the citation in the wiki does link to an article written by Mayorov in which he makes the claims mentioned. -- Hux 07:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems to be a regular author of GlobalRus.ru  both first and family name are quite common, so it is difficult to say more, there are quit a number of Alexnder Mayorov's in Internet. If he is only notable by his GlobalRus.Ru (a hardly notable online magazine by itself), then he certainly does not deserve his own article on Wiki abakharev 08:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is Alexander Mayorov? 

message: *public threats by army officers (like the open letter in NG from officers of the 45th regiment of the Russian Army that she's "qualified to liquidation", after she exposed their trade in a corpses in the article on "a commercial concentration camp")
*more on the OMON police officer Sergey (Sergei) Kadet Lapin - why he was on revenge against Anna, and that he was ultimately convinced of war crimes in 2005, namely torturing, and "dissapearing" a Chechen detainee (google for "Zelimkhan Murdalov" - name of a missing person); maybe he needs his own article
*the overnight detainment and mock execution the by paratroopers (after she discovered the excrement-covered earth pits for a detainees)
*the flight from the FSB in Chechnya (she escaped alone in the mountains, in night)
*the public death sentence by Akhmad Kadyrov (not yet Ramzan)
*her last articles, focusing on Ramzan (who before personally threatened her with death in his residence)
Also this: "Anna Politkovskaya is stoical about threats to her own life. Appearing on this week’s SBS Dateline report, 'Putin’s Media Wars', she said that she is gradually getting her children used to the fact that any moment they might be left without her. ‘They have all my instructions for that scenario’, she said. Also on the program was the editor of Novaya Gazete, Sergei Sokolov, who said that four of the newspaper’s journalists had died in suspicious circumstances in the 11 years since it began operation. Overall, we were told, 148 Russian journalists have died of unnatural causes since 1992."  
Some on the threats from Ramzan:
"While on one of her fact-finding trips to Chechnya, Anna Politkovskaya was brought two times to the house of Ramzan Kadyrov in Tsenteroi, where she was verbally harassed and threatened by Kadyrov. On 10 June 2004 she was supposed to meet the then presidential candidate Alu Alkhanov, but while Alkhanov, who was attending the funeral of his father, was not present, Kadyrov was, and he behaved very aggressive vis-à-vis Politkovskaya, telling her with raised voice “You are defending bandits! You are an enemy!” The next day, on 11 June, Politkovskaya received a phone call from Taus Dzhabrailov, head of the Chechen state council, who invited her to come again to Tsenteroi in order to interview a captured commander of the armed insurgents, who allegedly had given his agreement to the interview. When she arrived in Tsenteroi, it turned out that Kadyrov had arranged for her to meet Ibragim Garsiev, whose story she had covered in a Novaya Gazeta article a year ago. He had worked as a guard in the Malik Saidullaev election campaign, and had shown Politkovskaya traces of beating on his body, telling her how Ramzan Kadyrov personally tortured him, demanding that he should blow up Saidullaev. Moreover, Garsiev wrote to the general procuratura asking to initiate a criminal case against Kadyrov. Now, a year later, in Kadyrov’s house, Garsiev refuted his own allegations and claimed that he never wrote to the procuratura, since he cannot write at all, and that he had only signed a paper given to him by Saidullaev’s brother Rustam. He further stated that the traces of beating were only marks of a car accident that took place under influence of alcohol. The head of the Urus-Martan police, who was present during this meeting, confirmed the fact of the mentioned accident. In Ramzan Kadyrov’s presence Garsiev then dictated and sent to the procuratura a letter rebuffing his first one. Kadyrov and the people surrounding him were again aggressive towards Politkovskaya, yelling that she should have been shot back in Moscow.5" 
--HanzoHattori 07:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We also need to include the fact that she constantly lied in her articles and books. For example: http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/8220-15.cfm mixer 07:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's one version, and even this letter from a reader says "it is not clear". On the other hand, young women and a teenage girls were frequently doing the suicide attacks alone. This including driving the tuck bombs, like in this example (from a pro-government source): "In another case, the military managed to stop a female bomber and prevent the explosion. 16-year-old Mareta Duduyeva driving a Ural truck attempted to blow up a temporary police station in Grozny." Is this one "clear" enough? "And it seems that it is women who face this certain death more often and more willingly than men."  Maybe you should give more "examples". --HanzoHattori 08:20, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I'd wait for any results of the NG investigation. Other than that, no one ever was convinced for a murder of journalist in Russia, even in Paul Khlebnikov's case (the US citizien). --HanzoHattori 09:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is correct. Still lets wait for Novaya Gazeta, or interviews of Notable people or analysis by WP:RS our own speculations qualify for the original research abakharev 10:24, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As for now, NG has 2 hypothesis: either Kadyrov, or his enemies. Her last published article was on Ramzan too. (And as for a  possible suspects in the second option, I would say: Yamadayev brothers.) --HanzoHattori 11:26, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Self-correction: in the case Larisa Yudina aids to Kalmykia President Ilyumzhinov were convicted. --HanzoHattori 11:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh, the "anti-Russian elements who provoked the espionage crisis in Georgia". Please continue, Mr. Conspiracy-theorist! --HanzoHattori 11:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think anyone disputes the fact that the espionage crisis was rigged up by the Saakashvili administration. Incivility and personal attacks by HanzoHattori are more disturbing. They may lead to brief blocks. Ghirla -трёп- 11:43, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow. Am I part of the worldwide conspiracy of anti-Russian elements yet? --HanzoHattori 11:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm... it seems even this page can be successfully exploited as a tribune from which to criticize Georgia and its leadership even though only a few hours ago Ghirlandajo removed, from the 2006 Georgian-Russian espionage controversy article, a well-referenced passage on the October 8 Moscow rally against the murder of the journalist and the Kremlin's policy towards Georgians as irrelevant.--Kober 12:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree abakharev 13:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, her last story. Anna Politkovskaya was working on an article on torture in Chechnya which was almost ready to be published. She had especially collected some graphic photo material (bodies of a Russian and Chechen men who were kidnapped by Kadyrov's men). The police took away Anna's personal computer as  "evidence", but NG says that they have parts of the article and the photos and will publish what they got. Also, via AP: "In a recent radio interview, Politkovskaya said that she was a witness in a criminal case against Moscow-backed Chechen Prime Minister Ramzan Kadyrov, whose security forces have been accused of kidnapping civilians and other abuses." --HanzoHattori 14:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some things to be covered 

message: Sergei Lapin <- here. --HanzoHattori 15:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added article on Kadet 

message: The line looks odd. I wonder Why someone even expect a comment? I have nothing against Politkovskaya as a human being but What is special with this particular assassination? As far as I remember Kremlin has no habbit to make official statements on every murder and I'm sorry but the line looks silly. --Nekto 04:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly not on every murder, but the Kremlin usually makes official statements when prominent people, such as the Swedish politicians Olof Palme and Anna Lindh, were assassinated. --Camptown 07:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russia – As of Monday, the Kremlin had made no comment. 

message: :He stated that the murderers should get the most severe punishment and tell that while his view on the developments in Chechnya are different from Anna's he never doubt he admires her devotion to the future of Chechen people.
First of all, shouldn't she be referred to as "Politkovskaya" rather than "Anna", unless there is specific reason for using Anna, e.g. Alkhanov knew her personally and would address her in this way, in which case, this needs to be stated or put as a direct quote.
Secondly, he never doubt he admires her devotion - should that be "nevertheless" rather than "never doubt"? Or have parts of this sentence gone missing? - Samsara (talk • contribs) 09:16, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've reworked this section. Besides the poor grammar there were a couple of areas where the English translation didn't quite match the original text. -- Hux 10:16, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks a lot, my English grammar today is particularly poor abakharev 12:26, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This sentence no grammar 

message: I don't really know much about this subject (i'm only here 'cause she was in the news just now), but i have two issues with the article.
Firstly: I don't speak Russian at all (or know this person's history), but the name 'Politkovskaya' sounds like a very artificial name to me given this person's occupation. As in, it sounds like it has something to do with politics, which is basically what she reported on. If that's the case, i think a mention should be made in the article as to the intentions she had when choosing that name for herself. I mean, the article doesn't make it clear at all. Is it a pen name, or did she legally change it? Is it a 'real' surname in Russia, or is it a personal statement? Et cetera.
Secondly: I notice that the words 'Mr' and 'Ms' are used in the article. I thought this was frowned upon in Wikipedia as being sexist (since the 'Ms' commonly signifies a woman's marriage status, whereas 'Mr' doesn't). Am i wrong?
*As far as I know, Politkovskiy (feminine form Politkovskaya) is just her former husband's surname. It was her real name and the name of her daughter, it is not a very rare name in Russia. Her maiden name Mazepa has much stronger historical associations. The English speaking title problem Mrs vs Miss vs Ms has no analoug in Russian, we have probably have to google her most common title in the English speaking press. abakharev 12:10, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the title 'Ms' was invented specifically to avoid reference to marital status in women...but in any case, I think it's bad form to use these titles in an encyclopedic article. Bellemichelle 12:13, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  the name 'Politkovskaya'; the words 'Mr' and 'Ms' 

message: The Minister of Foreign affairs had this to say: http://chechenpress.co.uk/english/news/2006/10/036.shtml while the Ichkerian government isn't recognised, prehaps it would be interesting to add their response too, considering the relation to Chechen politics. I would do it myself, but I might appear biased. if anyone agrees with me and could  find a suitable quote out of that page you'd have my thanks. Mikebloke 13:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's definitely relevant to the article given that Chechnya was the main focus of Politkovskaya's writing. I'll see what I can do. I have no connection with either Russia or the successionist Chechen government so hopefully my addition will not be perceived as biased! -- Hux 13:26, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ichkerian Government Response 

message: I moved the paragraphs about demonstrations / vigil to their own subsection under Reaction, as the main Reaction section has become a bit too crowded. If anyone can think of a way to organize it further, please do so by all means! --Jopo 15:16, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organizing Reaction section 

message: Hello,
I noticed that the Cyrillic version of Anna's name (as listed on the main article page) doesn't match the accepted Romanized version at all.  You can check, rambler, pravda, etc. for her Cyrillic name (for example:  http://www.pravda.ru/filing/Ann_Politkovskaja/t)
I was preparing to edit the article to fix this mistake, and then i noticed that on the edit page her name is correctly entered in Cyrillic, however, on the article page it appears incorrectly.  
Does Wikipedia have a problem displaying cyrillic characters?  What is the problem here?  I'm puzzled...
Moreover, this needs to be rectified.
Lesotho 23:41, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *I studied Russian for about a year and never learned cursive cyrillic. It has always confused me whenever I've seen it, though I suppose there's a theory behind not teaching it. --Cherry blossom tree 09:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem with Wikipedia and Cyrillic 

message: I added a citation for the Dresden, Germany demonstration but removed the number of demonstrators as the Die Welt article  doesn't make a mention of it (then again, German is not my forte). If someone can cite a source with the 2,000 demonstrators mentioned, please do so. —Jopo 06:32, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, found it myself :)  —Jopo 06:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dresden demonstration 

message: I removed: Both Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chechen prime minister Ramzan Kadyrov are suspected of ordering the killing.Citation Needed, by 172.141.118.139, 21:58, 10 October 2006. Camptown 07:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So, what are you telling is this: if someone has taken people hostages, just order to kill them all, and blame the hostage takers, as Putin did? I think that under such circumstances, the president who gave such order, and the serviceman who executed the criminal order and physically killed the children are even more guilty than the hostage takers. But Putin did more: he established a complete information blockade during the mass murder in Beslan by ordering to poison Anna on the board of the plane, arresting Andrei Babitsky and a group of Georgian journalists, and a lot more. Biophys 17:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Exactly. These Chechen woman did not deserve to die like that. Let me clarify. A hostage taker who did not kill anyone yet (as most of these women) is guilty in kidnapping and putting other people's life in danger (this is a serious crime that deserves a serious punishment in a court). A serviceman from Spetsnaz who physically killed a hostage by pumping the gas or otherwise is guilty in murder (and the person who gave such order is also guilty). A servicemen who kills an incapacitated suspect (like most of these women) is also guilty im murder. You suppose to know the laws of the country you are living in. Of course, things are very different in Russia, where there is no working justice system (see "Putin's Russia" by Anna). You should also know that each of these women could easily pull the trigger and blow out the building, because most people remained concious for a few minutes after filling the smell of the gas. But they did not do it, because they were not going to, exactly as Anna said (or perhaps they could not do it, because the wires were disconnected by their leader, or their bombs even were fake, as some other people believe). Biophys 18:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh, I did not answer your question about the "sleeping gas". I think they knew how it works. Or maybe you are right, and they had no opportunity to try this gas previously on a large sample of people. I would recommend you to read the book "Perversion of knowledge" by Birshtein, who describes early years of a secret KGB lab, where each new poison had to be tried on many people of different age and etnicity. Right now they are probably doing such experiments in Chechnya, as described in several publucations by Anna in "Novaya gazeta". The poisons have very long and proud history in Russia. The list of poisoned people is very long and probably includes such prominent figures as writer Maksim Gorky, Stalin, and more recently another jurnalist from "Novaya gazeta" Yuri Shekochikhin, and possibly even Anatolii Sobchak, who suddenly died from "heart attack", a few hours after drinking a glass of mineral water given him by Mr. Putin Biophys 19:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  "A" grade for you, mate!!!! Dimts, you a great pal. Thank you for public exposure of Biophys delirium. Please note that Biophys is working hard at such articles like 'Human rights in Russia', 'Federal Security Service of Russian Federation', 'KGB', 'Boris Stomakhin' and the likes.Vlad fedorov 08:47, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

text:  ooooo... Citations from blog (http://www.boloji.com/myword/mw042.htm) are accepted by Biophys as genuine facts? What about Wikipedia policies? Vlad fedorov 08:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced speculation 

message: I believe she needs her Wikipedia article.
In a tribute to the slain Umazheva, award-winning Russian war correspondent Anna Politkovskaya wrote in the December 5 issue of Novaya Gazeta: "Malika was a true heroine, a unique and marvelous one. She became the head of administration of one of the most complex Chechen villages--Alkhan-Kala (a 'Baraev' village, the subject of endless 'cleansing operations,' executions and disfigured corpses) after the former head had been murdered. Reason would have told her: 'Sit quietly. Be careful.' But she did the exact opposite--she became the boldest and most committed village head in that murderous zone of military anarchy which today is Chechnya. By herself, unarmed, she went out to meet the [Russian] tanks that were crawling into the village. Alone, she shouted to the generals who had deceived her and, on the sly, were murdering the residents of the village: 'You scoundrels!' She relentlessly fought for a better fate for Alkhan-Kala. No one else permitted himself to do that in present-day Chechnya. Not a single male."
"She, a humble village head who had been elected by a popular assembly," Politkovskaya continued, "earned the wild hatred of the chief of our General Staff, the much-decorated General Kvashnin. He hated her so much that he invented the vilest stories about her, using his access to the television cameras to spread them. And she? She continued along her chosen path and, in response to Kvashnin's lies, she sued him in court, knowing perfectly well that almost everyone is afraid of him.... But Kvashnin does not forgive those who do not fear him."
http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=12&issue_id=546&article_id=23341
--HanzoHattori 11:09, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So start the article!  I'll vote keep if/when it comes up for deletion.  All assassinated people are notable, especially journalists.  JeffBurdges 16:08, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Malika Umazheva 

message: I'm not quite sure (since not being an English native speaker), but isn't it that the phrase "the Putin administration" (see first paragraph of the article) has some condemnatory colour?
:No, it's standard usage and neutral in connotation. :) -- Hux 15:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "the Putin administration" 

message: Substituted at 20:22, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment