Talk:Ofira Air Battle

message: how can over the hell it is possible isareli are no devils
Either the Arabs are seriously this bad, or someone is bullshitting about this "battle".
Better pilots and better planes. --66.229.35.146 (talk) 06:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  too biased 

message: there is no source to prove  the battle
:I spent about an hour trying to find a source, and this was the only article I could find that uses this name for this battle. I guess you have to read actual books to find detailed information about the battles. However, as I couldn't locate a single confirmatory source and the article has no references, I added the unreferenced tag.--Qball6 02:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a source DeepSpace 10:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: there is also an article about the battle in the IAF's official site. --93.172.70.229 (talk) 21:34, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  no source  

message: The article has a clear pro-Israel point of view, for the following reasons:
1.The story is illogical, 7 MIGs cannot be shot down in 6 minutes only, given the phantom armament, we would know that such a large number of kills (4 for one of the two phantoms) must involve cannon kills which would necessarily come after relatively long dogfights.
2.The only source mentioned is the Israeli air forces website, which cannot be considered a neutral source.
3.Back in 1973 the MIG-17 an outdated subsonic aircraft ,shouldn’t be the EAF first choice in a critical mission , personally I believe that sending out 28 of these aircrafts on their own is an act of madness which doesn’t consist with the general Egyptian performance during this war
:I've come here from the NPOV tag placed on this article. Besides that point, how is this event notable? This article is hardly a stub and fails to mention why it is important. --ZsinjTalk 21:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: clearly you have no real knowledge has to the iaf's objectivity. secondly, there are many records of the battle in books about the war. the battle's significnse is that the battle took place as a part of operation badr. The egyptians aim war to destroy an important israle air force base and radar systems. in this battle they fail to do so (however succeded in a second attack). understood?--93.172.70.229 (talk) 21:41, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Impossible 

message: the two pilots got medals (one for downing 3, of which one was MIG-21, and the other for downing 4), I know of reliable sources about the battle in hebrew (attached to the hebrew wikipedia). By the way six minutes is long for this kind of battle (certainly not a short one).
:A google search on "2-28 Air battle" only returns hits to Wikipedia articles.  I have now read most of what is available online in English regarding the Yom Kippur air war, and I have found no mention of this battle. The apparent dearth of sources in English regarding this event continues to give me concerns regarding its accuracy and notability. I also see that the article suggests that the Egyptian planes were MIG-17s, but the above comment says that there were MIG-21s involved.Qball6 15:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: possible and true

message: This article has now been around for a while and the various concerns that have been raised have not been fixed.  First, there is no independant sourcing for the article.  Second, the notability has been questioned - I'm not certain that this qualifies as a "battle" rather than a skirmish, engagement or action.  The more I consider this article, the more I think it is appropriate to propose deletion.  However, I want to give fair notice and an opportunity to improve/add sourcing before I do so. -Kubigula (ave) 17:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: After consulting with User:El_C, who has the advantage of actually being able to read the original sources, I'm satisfied that there are sufficient sources to meet WP:N and WP:V.--Kubigula (talk) 18:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Continuing concerns about this article

message: what a load of bullsh** how the hell can this be even possible a 5 year-old kid wouldn't believe this
this battle is called "2-28" and it is a very famous battle. 
there was another air battle between israeli and russian pilot but my english is not good enough to write an article about it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.242.254.34 (talk) 03:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  what the hell??!! 

message: :With my respect to all the members who have contributed here, this discussion page is no more than a shamefull paper in our encyclopedia !
: the article in not even near to be neutral, only one source used, and believe it or not, it's not neutral !
: How many anti-air missiles can a Phantom carry? Four !! meaning that assuming that the battle toke place, and that the phantoms fired all of their weapons and each single missile downed an aircraft, would not it be strange that the remaining MiGs disengage knowing that the phantoms are no longer capable of firing a single missile at them? besides, the MiG-21 is fare more maneuverable than the phantom, and downing a phantom with an MiG-21 is easy according to egyptian pilots in the mansourah air battle where most of the fight was in ranges too close to use missiles, therefor cannon fire was most extensively used. so the phantom's only advantage is it's missile armament, since it is very heavy and unmaneuverable compared to the MiG-21. 
: Now u are a MiG-21 pilot, u have ur full stock of missiles, u know that including yours there are 20 aircrafts of ur air force against only two Phantoms which no longer carry any air to air missiles. U know the advantages of your aircraft, ad that it is more maneuverable than the Phantom, and is even armed with a stronger cannon....would u all disengage?
:* That shows that the battle may have never actually took place, or may have took place, but fabricated to be the story we are talking about here.
:* It has no important historical or strategic value.
:* The only source used is an Israeli source.
:* The egyptian air force never said it took place. -although israel is denying the mansourah battle, they admitted it took place with their own story ofcourse to their public-.
: In another word, if this article do not get supported by reliable neutral sources, it should be deleted
: If it got supported by such source, it should be discussed weather it get deleted or not since it has no historic importance, and was part of a much larger event where it did not have any significant impact on it. One last pharaoh (talk) 15:24, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  True discussion 

message: Seeing that there has been no contribution to this discussion, and that this article remains supported by the same single source (IAF), which is not neutral and so cannot be considered a reliable source, I have nominated this article for deletion. Not to mention this article is not mentioned anywhere else. Sherif9282 (talk) 22:54, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Nomination for deletion

message: "At exactly 1400 on 6 October Israeli Air Force fighters were scrambled from their bases.  Here and there they achieved local success: shooting down seven attacking Egyptian fighters for no losses over Ophir (sic.)air base; shooting down an AS-5 ASM launched by an Egyptian Tu-16 towards Tel Aviv; shooting down most of the Egyptian Su-7s that attacked the major Israel Defense Force command and control center at Om Hashiba - including the one flown by Atef Sadat the half brother of the Egyptian President Anwar Sadat."
From Page 80,  "Arab-Israeli Air Wars 1947-82" by Shlomo Aloni, Osprey Combat Aircraft # 23, Copyright 2001, Osprey Publishing Limited, Elms Court, Chapel Way, Botley, Oxford OX291LP.  This is probably not enough for "independent verification" since Shlomo Aloni is an Israeli, but his other works show significant access to Israeli specific documents and are quite scholarly.. 
There is no specific citation for this information, but there is a general listing of "Selected English Bibliography."
Yudel (talk) 17:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Stills, "there is no specific citation for this information" One last pharaoh (talk) 16:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Source

message: The article has been nominated for deletion once more. The reasons and discussions concerning this are stated here. Sherif9282 (talk) 11:19, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nominated for Deletion (2nd Time) 

message: Turns out some amateur photographer caught part of the battle on 8mm film. Link shows a MiG-17 being hit and crashing into the sea, a Phantom, several MiGs and a meeting between the guy who shot the film and Amir Nahumi. With additional photos here (third post, tropo anntenae make it clear site is Ofira), I hope we can put to rest any notion that this battle never took place. Poliocretes (talk) 08:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Footage no longer appearing in link, but can be found on youtube. Poliocretes (talk) 08:00, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Another dead link, but here's another, including MiG-17 crashing into the sea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8ASv4SDBT8 Poliocretes (talk) 11:51, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  New link in "external links" section. 

message: Losses of about 40.  This plane is greatly exaggerated, according to Colonel Easter Le Pen, who confirmed that the Egyptian losses were only 5 planes. This is in a book for an attack that restored security to Egypt Ever ground (talk) 22:36, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: On review, Simon Dunstan seems to have no qualifications that would make his book reliable, and Im just going to remove that bit. nableezy - 22:33, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Losses of about 40.  This plane is greatly exaggerated, according to Colonel Easter Le Pen, who confirmed that the Egyptian losses were only 5 planes. This is in a book for an attack that restored security to Egypt