Talk:Holy orders

message: The article says:
:Not all priests have lived up to these ideals: see Catholic priests' sex abuse scandal.
Catholic priests have broken every commandment.  There have been mass murderers among them, serial adulterers, thieves and con-artists.  In past centuries indulgences (forgiveness) was sold.  And what about the Spanish Inquisition?
Yet several articles about the Catholic Church here at Wikipedia mention none of that but with unseemly prurient interest they mention at the slightest excuse the recent sex abuse scandals.
I am inclined to remove the remark I have quoted.  Would I be right to do so?
Ok, new user.  Forgive my lack of computer skills.  Yes, I agree priests have broken all the commandments.  But that needs to stay seperate from the theology of Holy Orders.  The one is not the same as the other, though of course evil, esp in God's minister, effects not only the doer, but all people as well.
Dave
Psb777 11:32, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Priestly ideals

message: In today's evangelistic organizations, women are ordained as a matter of course. All it takes is a desire to be a minister and a willingness to serve other's in His name. While some organizations require a college degree and years of study, other organizations will ordain for the asking. In each it is up to the degree of study or time one wants to put into it.
Many 'organized' churches also ordain women who feel called to minister to others in that capacity. While some differentiate on what a woman can do in that capacity, many don't.
:I'm not clear on what you mean by "evangelistic organizations." Parachurch organizations? Denominational missionary agencies? Please feel free to expand the section on the ordination of women, but be sure to specify when and where your comments apply. If you do plan to expand it, you might want to create a user account so your name doesn't appear as your address "12.216.83.20." --Flex 14:53, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ordination for Women 

message: Whilst the entry I added could go under the definition, it is more introductory than definitional. It would IMO unbalance that definition. If the Article was Ordination rather than holy orders then it would be easier. Paul foord 01:29, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  holy orders & ministry 

message: I removed this link:
* Church of Spiritual Humanism
as it appears to be a dig, not a reference.  Discuss humanism, link to the article on humanism, but this link seems to be a fork in disguise. 
Also this one: 
* Women Elders, an essay on the ordination of women in the Presbyterian tradition
which is already linked from ordination of women, to which it is specific.
Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 10:51, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: The section on ordination of homosexuals includes accounts of Judaism and humanist organizations on having homosexuals in leadership roles.  However, the article is titled "holy orders", and its introduction presents this term solely in a Christian context.  Is semicha (the ordination of a rabbi) ever called Holy Orders in the Jewish tradition?  If so, the introduction should reflect this; if not, the discussion of homosexual rabbis is irrelevant to this article and should be moved, probably to Homosexuality and Judaism.  Similarly, unless there is a humanist religious organization which uses the term "holy orders" with regard to the ordination of its leaders/celebrants, the humanist section should be removed, or moved to an article about organized humanism. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 16:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In the absence of any objection, I've removed the sections on Judaism and humanism as not relevant to the term Holy Orders per se. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:00, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Judaism and humanism 

message: What is missing here, it seems to me, is a clear, concise explanation of why Holy Orders is necessary.  What does it confer upon the recipient of the Sacrament?  Obviously a title (priest, deacon, etc.), which is laboriously explained, but what authority or powers does it place upon the recipient?
Thank you.
:I will double check the article for the "why" you mention is lacking.  However, to answer you question, the "why" is the sacramental character that the Sacrament of Holy Orders provides.  As Catholics, we believe that through the Sacrament, the gift of the Holy Spirit is given.  The Holy Spirit then "imprints" a character on the soul, and empower the person to act in the name of the Church and to be ministers within the Church.DaveTroy 09:56, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is it done? 

message: Why does this page only include Judeo-Christian holy orders? Doesn't every religion have a holy order of some type?
wrc_wolfbrother 03:38, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wolfbrother, the answer would be NO, as to how you ask your question.  Does every religion have some type of "designated" worship leader, I would answer "yes."  But here HOLY ORDER refers to a sacrament -- a concept that doesnt' exist outside of Christianity.  Further, "Order" here refers to a group to which you are configured into -- again not a universal concept.  For example, in Shintoism, the Emperor of Japan is the High Priest ex officio, not by virtue of ordination.  Another example would be Jewish Rabbi's.....they aren't necessarily priests, rather they are scholars of the law.  In other traditions, one is a priest because you're from a priestly family.DaveTroy 16:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias? 

message: Current article reads in part Holy Orders in the Roman Catholic (Latin: sacri ordines), Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox (ιερωσυνη, ιερατευμα, Свештенство), Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, Assyrian, Old Catholic, Independent Catholic churches and some Lutheran churches are the three orders of bishop, priest and deacon, or the sacrament or rite by which candidates are ordained to those orders. These Churches regard ordination as a sacrament (the sacramentum ordinis). Protestant denominations, however, have varied conceptions of the church offices, but none of them considers ordination a sacrament... (my emphasis). However, all Lutheran churches are protestant... Lutheranism is a major branch of Protestant Christianity... according to our article. Some rephrasing needed, but it will be a bit tricky, I can see what it's trying to say and it's all important. Andrewa 02:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistent intro 

message: This page included quite a bit of outdated, irrelevant, hanging material,m and also hopelessly confused Orthodox, Catholic and anglican and Lutheran theologies (just for instance, "Roman Catholic" and "Eastern Catholic" kept being referred to as if they were two different theologies and Christian sets of beliefs). This should clarify and organize things a bit.24.164.159.234 21:37, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Roman Catholic" and "Eastern Catholic" division that you see was incorrectly thrust into many articles. They are a hold over from an edit war in 2006 when a small group was trying to make the case that the term "Roman Catholic" refered only to the Latin Rite and could never be used to refer to the entire Church in union with Rome.  This still needs to be corrected in many places across Wikipedia. -- SECisek 17:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  reworking 

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with File:Ordination rifan.jpg

message: There is a need to clean up the use of terms Roman Catholic and Catholic, which are not used in a consistent matter in the article.  For example, at one point Roman Catholic seems to be referring to just Latin-Rite Catholics ("In the Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox..."), and at another it seems to be referring to all Catholics.  In addition, at one point the name Catholic is used in reference to both Latin and Eastern ("For Catholics..."), and the heading Eastern Christianity discusses only Eastern Orthodox, not Eastern Catholic.  This is an issue being raised throughout Wikipedia recently, as part of a great deal of discussion regarding the renaming of the Catholic Church article (from Roman Catholic Church to Catholic Church).  I think in this article it is not 100% clear which references are referring to which church(es), but hopefully a review of the sources will help.  Just wanted to post this here to explain the changes/clarificactions that will eventually need be made.  --anietor (talk) 04:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean up "Catholic" terminology 

message: See post 1980 sources, "took holy orders" usually not capitalized. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:04, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The capitalisation of the term is inconsistent throughout the article (current score: "Holy Orders", 8 -v- "holy orders", 9). Except in quotes or linked titles of other articles can we standardise on lower case? Happy to do the necessary if nobody has any objection. Tim riley (talk) 11:13, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

text: Support I'm not sure what other reason there would be for capitalization other than tradition among specialist religious writing. SchreiberBike talk 03:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: If there's no objection, I'll go ahead and make the changes above in about a week. Thank you, SchreiberBike talk 05:20, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Changes made as described above. If there is no objection, after a week or so, I'll request a change of article title to Holy orders which is now a redirect. Thank you. SchreiberBike talk 21:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Change made as described above. SchreiberBike talk 19:38, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:CAPS]]?

message: This article says:
:: Eastern Orthodox bishops would most likely re-ordain a Catholic priest if one were to convert; that is part of the policy called church economy.
and later:
:: Eastern Orthodox bishops have, on occasion, granted "economy" when Anglican priests convert to Orthodoxy.
I would have thought "economy" means NOT re-ordaining them, i.e. "economy" gets construed as less-than-rigid adherence to rules, usually when a bishop authorizes a relaxation of rules.  If the first sentence is correct, then the second one quoted above becomes hard to understand.  The second sentence presumably means those bishops have NOT required re-ordination, but allowed formerly Anglican priests to be recognized as Orthodox priests without that.
: 
Can someone who knows this stuff clarify? Michael Hardy (talk) 00:15, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for noticing this!  The first sentence is indeed wrong with the concept of economy inverted and I have edited the article to correct that.  Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 00:49, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusion concerning "economy" 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified