Talk:Black Belt (geological formation)

message: Booker T. Washington couldn't have described the Black Belt region in 1965; he had been dead for 50 years. I don't know the correct attribution (year or other speaker), but perhaps someone else does. - 66.181.93.210
* Corrected. Thanks for the tip. Dystopos 05:45, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Washington quote 

message: I have never heard of this area before.  This article is in desperate need of a map Asteron ノレツァ 23:51, September 6, 2005 (UTC)
:Especially when compared with other "belt" regions. Data on which counties might be useful, too. JD 07:35, September 9, 2005 (UTC
To the right is a map of the area from the Harry Haywood article.
Humbabba 05:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needs a map 

message: the statements about african americans being disadvantaged needs a citation.  it appears to me, to be largely conjecture.
Taste the Umami 19:05, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  citation needed 

message: Just curious why Maryland, given Baltimore and Prince George's County, are not considered to be part of this region? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.204.235.193 (talk) 00:33, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a term just referring to areas of the south where african-americans live.  Toddst1 (talk) 15:32, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maryland 

message: I've decided to remove Kentucky as over 90 percent of its population is white with less than 8 percent African-American. There are a few small black enclaves here and there in Kentucky, but not enough to significantly make its presence felt as a black belt state. It is noticably north and west of the primary arc of the African-American population, and that many blacks migrated to northern cities such as Chicago, Detroit, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, and St. Louis. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pfly (talk • contribs) 18:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem! ..and it does seem odd to me to mention Texas and Tennessee, and even Florida, in the opening paragraph. But then I'd always heard of the black belt as being the dark soil region of Alabama and its associated issues of population and poverty, and its important role in the history of the deep south. Perhaps the always-problematic mentioning of specific states could be avoided by rewording to something like "..belt-like pattern across the South.." instead of "..across 12 states.." Also, the very first sentence is not quite clear to me: "..623 southern counties that contain a higher than average percentages of African American residents." What does "higher than average" mean, I wonder? Higher than the national average? What is the national average? The mention of 623 counties is quite specific, but it's not clear which counties these are, or where this definition comes from. If I find the time I'll see if I can dig up something about this. Pfly 20:10, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I just uploaded this map to the Commons, thinking it might be better than the one currently on this page, since it shows the national average and a lot more information. But I'm too tired to think about it more right now. The Census Bureau file The Black Population: Census 2000 Brief has a lot of stats, according to which the national average is 12.9%. Interestingly it gives figures by census region and states too. In the South, the average is 19.5%. It also points out that there are 96 counties with a Black population percentage over 50%, all but one (St Louis City, MO) being in the South census region. Of those, the report says they are "generally nonmetropolitan" and "distributed across the Coastal and Lowland South in a loose arc." In other sources, the term "Black Belt" seems to be used mainly for the soil-based area of Alabama and Mississippi, and secondarily for a vaguely defined social region associated historically with slavery and cotton plantations and so on. The 623 county figure seems to come from a book called "The Southern Black Belt". A few webpages that refer to the book: The Southern Black Belt, Turning the Course of Poverty in the Historic Black Belt South, Funding black belt school districts in Tennessee. Having skimmed those, it seems to me that the 623-county "Southern Black Belt" is essentially a political region being proposed for the creation of a federal commission along the lines of the Appalachian Regional Commission. Finally, a few other links of interest: This map of ancestry shows an interestingly similar pattern as the population maps. And this Black Belt essay looks useful. I was going to try to edit the page with some of this info, but I am out of energy, so am just posting the links here for now. Pfly 00:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kentucky 

message: The article describes the Black Belt as the region in which the black population is the majority, that is, over 50%. The Booker T. Washington quote says essentially the same thing ("counties where the black people outnumber the white"). It's obvious that a looser meaning is common, but the basic idea is population majority. Given this, most of the arguments given by User:74.128.200.135 are beside the point.
Also, some of the links posted by User:74.128.200.135 are misleading:
This encarta map link, , is just a regular reference map. The URL and page name indicate "Black Belt (Alabama)", which probably refers to Black Belt (region of Alabama), but it is unclear.
After calling Gator87 an "ignorant ass", User:74.128.200.135 posted this link, , to a map titled "4. Identifying the "black belt" of cash-crop production". The key says it shows "black belt counties", which is misleading without the rest of the map's context. The full article is here:  -- The map User:74.128.200.135 posted is the 4th step in a 6-step process, and in the text the term "black belt" is explicitly described as referring to rich soil. The 6th map would be more appropriate, , but even then it about 19th century agricultural practices and not racial population density.
Finally, in the repeated posts of the census 2000 map of black population percentage by county, , remember that it is only the two darker shades of blue that are over 50%. Pfly 05:01, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem! ..and it does seem odd to me to mention Texas and Tennessee, and even Florida, in the opening paragraph. But then I'd always heard of the black belt as being the dark soil region of Alabama and its associated issues of population and poverty, and its important role in the history of the deep south. Perhaps the always-problematic mentioning of specific states could be avoided by rewording to something like "..belt-like pattern across the South.." instead of "..across 12 states.." Also, the very first sentence is not quite clear to me: "..623 southern counties that contain a higher than average percentages of African American residents." What does "higher than average" mean, I wonder? Higher than the national average? What is the national average? The mention of 623 counties is quite specific, but it's not clear which counties these are, or where this definition comes from. If I find the time I'll see if I can dig up something about this. Pfly 20:10, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I just uploaded this map to the Commons, thinking it might be better than the one currently on this page, since it shows the national average and a lot more information. But I'm too tired to think about it more right now. The Census Bureau file The Black Population: Census 2000 Brief has a lot of stats, according to which the national average is 12.9%. Interestingly it gives figures by census region and states too. In the South, the average is 19.5%. It also points out that there are 96 counties with a Black population percentage over 50%, all but one (St Louis City, MO) being in the South census region. Of those, the report says they are "generally nonmetropolitan" and "distributed across the Coastal and Lowland South in a loose arc." In other sources, the term "Black Belt" seems to be used mainly for the soil-based area of Alabama and Mississippi, and secondarily for a vaguely defined social region associated historically with slavery and cotton plantations and so on. The 623 county figure seems to come from a book called "The Southern Black Belt". A few webpages that refer to the book: The Southern Black Belt, Turning the Course of Poverty in the Historic Black Belt South, Funding black belt school districts in Tennessee. Having skimmed those, it seems to me that the 623-county "Southern Black Belt" is essentially a political region being proposed for the creation of a federal commission along the lines of the Appalachian Regional Commission. Finally, a few other links of interest: This map of ancestry shows an interestingly similar pattern as the population maps. And this Black Belt essay looks useful. I was going to try to edit the page with some of this info, but I am out of energy, so am just posting the links here for now. Pfly 00:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments on the above section

message: Part of the opening paragraph reads, "it has long been used for a broad region in the American South characterized by a high population percentage of black people, acute poverty, rural decline, inadequate education programs, low educational attainment, poor health care, substandard housing, and high levels of crime and unemployment." I was wondering if this was comparing black people to acute poverty, rural decline, inadequate education programs, low educational attainment, poor health care, substandard housing, and high levels of crime and unemployment. Perhaps the sentences should read: "The Black Belt is a region of the United States. Although the term originally describes the prairies and dark soil of central Alabama and northeast Mississippi, it has long been used for a broad region in the American South characterized by a high population percentage of black people. The region has a disproportionate rate of acute poverty, rural decline, inadequate education programs, low educational attainment, poor health care, substandard housing, and high levels of crime and unemployment." Any comments? Jd027talk 16:48, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done (and then some).  Fredwerner (talk) 18:55, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment on opening 

message: The article states that poverty in this area is due to "the decline of family farms" which is highly dubious. Most of this area has been poor since the  the civil war.  A reliable citation is needed to support the claim or it should be removed. Toddst1 (talk) 15:28, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been two years since this tag was put in.  I'm going to remove the statement as I agree with Toddstl.  Dinkytown talk 21:55, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  decline of family farms 

message: If you look at the picture, under other: Portuguese is spelled "portugese" which is a racial slang for Portuguese people. Please change this.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.60.96.31 (talk) 16:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portuguese 

message: The section on the current status of the Black Belt needs to be expanded and updated. At present, the article leaves the impression that Southern Democrats still control the state and local governments across the South, and makes no mention of the 20th-century conservative Republican resurgence and dominance there. Contemporary issues of gerrymandered voting districts, voter disenfranchisement and suppression, and its effect on voter turnout need coverage, with references to WP:RS. The current effects of immigration (from abroad and from within the US) also need coverage. Reify-tech (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Updates needed

message: The footnotes focus on the geographic description of the Black Belt and note that sociologists have hijacked the term and re-purposed it. The article's authors seem to focus on  areas populated mostly by blacks in order to demonstrate the validity of the sociologists thesis.  The whole thing seems a little dishonest to me.
I think two articles are needed. One article that is a factual description of the geographical area, such as was done in Encyclopedia Britannica and the Black Belt Museum references. A second article on the sociological phenomena that describes the rationale and history of sociologist's use of the term. Do not conflate the two ideas even though the maps of the two overlap.66.85.235.16 (talk) 02:27, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree 100%, and fixed it (see section below) . Alas, there have been recent attempts to restore the WP:COATRACKING without any discussion here. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:34, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Content Seems to Conflict with Sources 

message: The article currently says:
:Black Belt is still used in the physiographic sense, to describe a crescent-shaped region about 300 miles (480 km) long and up to 25 miles (40 km) wide, extending from southwest Tennessee to east-central Mississippi and then east through Alabama to the border with Georgia.
...which implies that the term is no longer used the way phrases like "sun belt" and "rust belt" are used. It may have been used shortly after 1900, but certainly is not a commonly-used phase today outside of Physical geography.
I propose that we put the physical geography usage at the top and move the usage from the 1900s-1910s to a historical section. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:37, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I noticed that nobody responded to Talk:Black Belt (U.S. region)#Content Seems to Conflict with Sources the comment above this one, written by 66.85.235.16. Unless someone objects and starts discussing this, I am going to implement the suggested changes. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:54, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems okay to me—no objections. Carlstak (talk) 02:07, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I have updated and renamed the article and fixed all the pages that linked to the old name. Feel free to go over what I did in the article and expand/improve it. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:16, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

text: I would like to object to the massive cutting-back, and geology-centric rescope of this article.  While the term is indeed somewhat obsolete, and particularly the early 20th century discourse around it, the socioeconomic concept is not.  See for example this 2014 article on A Federal Commission for the Black Belt South, which cover serious government initiatives related to the concept.--Pharos (talk) 18:25, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you be willing to create a page titled "Black Belt (socioeconomic concept)"? before the massive cutting back we had a bunch of pages wiki linking to the page as if it was like the Sun Belt, Bible belt, etc., despite there being zero sources using that term -- the editors who added the wikilink just assumed that it was what you call the area where poor black southerners live. Having a page for any articles that have sources that use the phrase in the socioeconomic sense could be helpful. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:42, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Somebody created it. See Black Belt in the American South. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:08, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obsolete term?