Talk:Helmuth James von Moltke

message: *Among its problems is that, although von Moltke was the co-founder of the Kreisau Circle, nothing about the activities of that group are covered in the article. See  and other references to rectify this problem.--User:HopsonRoad 23:53, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article needs lots of work 

message: The article on Helmuth von Moltke the Younger claims that Helmuth James Graf von Moltke was his son, but, if so, the relationship is conspicuously absent in the article at hand, which does point out the relationship to Helmuth von Moltke the Elder.  Was Helmuth von Moltke the Younger indeed the father of Helmuth James Graf von Moltke?  Richard David Ramsey 20:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relation to others surnamed von Moltke 

message: Wikipedia naming convention recommends against using the person's title in the title of the article. Since "Graf" is a title, it should be omitted from the title of this article, but noted in the lede. See, for instance Helmuth von Moltke the Elder. User:HopsonRoad 23:42, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested Move: "Graf" should not be in article title 

message: See discussion at Talk:List_of_members_of_the_20_July_plot and "Arrest, trial and execution by the Gestapo" section in this article. User:HopsonRoad 14:17, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Von Moltke should not be included in [[List of members of the 20 July plot]] 

message: The following sentence from the section Kreisau Circle heavily overstates the case
:This included both economic planning and self-government, developing a pan-European concept that pre-dated the European Union by nearly sixty years, summarized in documented resolutions.
The European Union is a direct consequence of pan-European concepts dating from 1946-50 and culminating in the Schuman Declaration. It took until the 1990's for the European Union to be created but the Treaty of Rome dates from 1957 and the Kreisau Circle ideas predate the Schuman Declaration by less than a decade while Schuman himself claimed his concept dated from his university years at the turn of the 20th century.
I am unsure what the best rewording is to put the Kreisau Circle in the right perspective, but 60 years ahead of its time isn't it. — Miguel (talk) 00:52, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overstating the case 

message: New verbiage claims, "membership in an unlikely quintet." This needs further elucidation--who were its members? --User:HopsonRoad 02:24, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have done some rewording of this new passage and confirmed its historical accuracy directly with his son. --User:HopsonRoad 19:06, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moltke in Turkey 

message: Many thanks, Hopson. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 00:00, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: New source

message: I note that a {{|refimprove|date=January 2013}} tag has been placed on this article. I invite editors to suggest problem areas either here or using the {{|citation needed|date=}} template in the text. User:HopsonRoad 21:16, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I have implemented the requested changes and have removed the tag. User:HopsonRoad 18:39, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  {{|refimprove|date=January 2013}} tag 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: 150px|right|thumb|Memorial stone to Moltke and his brother at Kreisau (Krzyżowa)
In an edit, User:Beyond My Ken cites a translation of a work written in German to employ the honorific "Count". That represents a fair translation, because "Graf" is often used in German. However, for works that were written in English, I would need to see a preponderance of evidence that he was referred to as "Count" in English. Here are some reasons that I feel that it is inappropriate:
*His memorial stone does not use the word "Graf".
*His widow's (Freya von Moltke) memorial stone in Norwich, Vermont does not use Graf or Count as it memorializes her as his widow. She was my next-door neighbor and explained that the family had no claim to either title and did not apply it to themselves.
*Neither of the two major books written in English about him use the title, Graf or Count: Letters to Freya with introduction and translations by Beate Ruhm von Oppen and Helmuth von Moltke—A Leader against Hitler by Michael Balfour and Julian Frisby. (Note that, while the authors did not use the words Graf or Count, sometimes the book-jacket cover writers did and this is reflected in Google searches.)
*Graf#Modern usage in German surnames states: "German nobility, although not abolished (unlike the Austrian nobility by the new First Austrian Republic in 1919), lost recognition as a legal class in Germany under the Weimar Republic in 1919 under the Weimar Constitution, article 109. Former hereditary noble titles legally simply transformed into dependent parts of the legal surname (with the former title thus now following the given name, e.g. Otto Graf Lambsdorff).[7] As dependent parts of the surnames (nichtselbständige Namensbestandteile), they are ignored in alphabetical sorting of names, as is the eventual nobiliary particle, such as von or zu,[8] and might or might not be used by those bearing them. The distinguishing main surname is the name following the Graf, or Gräfin, and the eventual nobiliary particle. Today, having lost their legal status, these terms are often not translated, unlike before 1919. The titles do, however, retain prestige in some circles of society."
In short, he was not a count nor did he claim to be one nor did he style his own name with the word, it's just that some Germans use the term "Graf" to honor Moltke's lineage. Therefore, I advocate retaining the title "Graf" in the infobox, in a nod to German usage.
Sincerely, HopsonRoad (talk) 13:31, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to point out that your argument concerns "a preponderance of evidence that he was referred to as 'Count' in English", yet the memorial stones (I presume) are German-language, as is Letters to Freya.  Of the information cited, the only actual English-language citation is Helmuth von Moltke—A Leader against Hitler.To further note, if he didn't claim the title "Graf", then it's inappropriate to have any honorific in the infobox or article.  We're English Wikipedia, and so by English naming conventions, not German ones. I can live with neither "Count" nor "Graf", if HopsonRoad can as well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:14, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:   I find your argument confusing. The evidence you provide seems to me to clearly indicate that neither Count nor Graf is appropriate. Daask (talk) 19:31, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you for responding here. It would be my preference to use neither "Count" nor "Graf" in English Wikipedia. There are many German speakers, who are active here and who expect to see "Graf", since he is often referred that way in the German language. As to memorials, the Helmuth one is in a part of Poland that was part of Germany during his lifetime to be read by visitors of all nations and the Freya one is in the United States to be read by English speakers. Also, Letters to Freya was written in English, notably the introduction—the body of it being a translation into English of Moltke's last letters, wherein he does not refer to himself in the third person. I'll wait for some more input before eliminating the title, althogether. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 19:44, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Given the unanimity of opinion here, I was WP:BOLD and removed the honorific from the title and the infobox.  If a different consensus develops, it can always be changed back. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:52, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should the article use the title, "Count", in English?