Talk:Jews for Jesus/Archive 1

message: US Viewpoint Bias-  In the opening, the article states that JFJ's activities have gone "as far" as the Ukraine. There is an incorrect assumption that the reader will always be in the U.S. or somewhere "far" from East Europe and the Ukraine.
:The above is unsigned and I don't know who wrote it, but JfJ is a US-based organisation and hence I don't regard the statement as US-biased. If they were based in the Ukraine, it would be valid to say that they've gone "as far as" the USA. DaveDave 11:17, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: General Comments

message: I've removed these two recently inserted paragraphs as original research:
:This thinking is very similar to the Two House Theology recently adopted by the Roman Catholic Church, which states that those who are born Jewish have their eternal fate determined by different criteria than those who are not. Conservative and Evangelical Christians object that the New Testament clearly teaches that only those who believe in Jesus will go to heaven, regardless of genealogy.
:Supporters of Jews for Jesus, and evangelization of Jews in general often argue that, in the framework of traditional Christian theology, which requires belief in Jesus for salvation, singling out Jews as a group exempt from evangelization would actually amount to a form of anti-semitism, as it would systematically consign the Jewish people to hell.
These kinds of claims need to be backed up with specific references, and quotes would be even better.  Also, please remember that this is a page about the Jews for Jesus organization, not a place for theological debates. Jayjg  | (Talk)</sup> 19:50, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't found a source for the remark about two-house theology, but the second paragraph turned out to be very similar to a remark in the FAQ on the Jews for Jesus web-site. I'm inserting the quote in its place, with an appropriate link. --kpearce 20:47, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: The term two-house theology is incorrect in this context. The normal phrases are two-covenant or dual-covenant theology, which is the idea that God treats Jews differently to Gentiles. However, note that some (non-mainstream) messianic groups have developed a two-house theology which basically says that Jews are decendants of the house/tribe of Judah and Gentiles are decendants of the house/tribe of Ephraim. This is an extremely controversial viewpoint and is vehemently disputed by all the major messianic organisations. Great care needs to be taken to get the terminology right. DaveDave 11:17, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Original research

message: This material is from the article List of purported cults, which we are paring down to a pure list. Editors here can best evaluate its statements and decide how to integrate it into this article. Thanks, -Willmcw 11:00, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
:Jews for Jesus
:Some Jewish critics have called Jews for Jesus a cult or claim it uses cultlike tactics to seek converts. They claim that it often deceives people in saying who they are and exploits people's religious insecurities. Many of the critics sharply disagree with the organization's claim that it is possible to become a Christian yet remain Jewish.  
:The organization says in a letter to a member on its Web site that those concerned about Jews for Jesus being a cult have "been influenced by propaganda promulgated by those who would detract from the credibility of your witness and ours. Some Jewish community leaders spread this kind of misinformation in order to counteract Jewish evangelism, which they erroneously consider a threat to Jewish survival. ... If your friend finds Jesus as her Savior, she will measure our doctrine and our conduct in the light of the Scriptures. Then she will know that Jews for Jesus is not a cult."  However, former members of Jews for Jesus have stated that the leadership of Jews for Jesus have used deception in finding converts and have used threats and intimdation to control their staff members.
JfJ is not a religious movement, but a missionary organisation. It does not have members (other than its employees) or followers as such. It encourages people to become part of established churches or messianic congregations. Confusion arises because JfJ has a high profile and leaders within the Jewish community have frequently equated it to the messianic jewish movement. (For example, groups of jewish believers in Jesus are often disparagingly referred to as "Jews for Jesus" even if they have no connections whatsoever with the organisation). The messianic jewish movement is much larger and made up of numerous independent organisations and groups, some of which have publicly distanced themselves from JfJ on both theological and practical grounds. Writing from an NPOV, it would be difficult to conclude that JfJ is a cult as it doesn't have members as such, but claims that it is cult-like as far as its employees are concerned need more careful evaluation. DaveDave 11:17, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Purported cult 

message: It reads like it--205.188.116.65 06:48, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am inclined to agree that the article is POV, but not in that direction.  We need a thorough review.  Constructive criticism is welcome; snide comments are not helpful. Zenosparadox 01:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Was this article written by a 'Jew For Jesus'

message: I hate to be so "in your face", but we need to be real.
I am a Messianic gentile. For awhile I made some contributions to the Messianic Judaism article.
The bottom line is that any topic dealing with Jews who believe in Jesus or trying to get Jewish people to believe in Jesus will constantly have severe POV problems. Even if it is edited to NPOV, within a week people will come along and add essentially the same things that were taken out. For that reason, eventually I just outright stopped contributing to almost anything regarding "Messianic".
Jews for Jesus has never claimed to be Messianic. Messianic organizations encourage Jewish people to believe in Jesus and to maintain a Jewish lifestyle, e.g., learn Hebrew, cant Torah, attend a Messianic synagogue if one is within reasonable distance, observe the levitical feasts, Purim, Chanukah, bar and bat-mitzvah their sons and daughters, get married under the chupah, etc.
JFJ, on the other hand, doesn't care about lifestyle. They don't care if the person becomes Messianic or Protestant or Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox and they have never claimed otherwise.
The bottom line on all this is that the vast majority of gentiles couldn't care less, which means that most of the people who will edit this either will be Jews with anti-JFJ views or will be Christians with very strongly held beliefs who represent varying severely minority views.
The same continual POV violations happen in certain other controversial articles, like Intelligent Design. Because anyone can edit and there is no enforced requirement of documentation, and because the sources used as documentation are strongly biased themselves, it is impossible to have anything approaching NPOV.
This is the type of article that just needs a non-removable template at the top saying in effect:
CAUTION: Despite monitoring by Wikipedia administrators, this article often contains severely biased POV violations.
<P>
The reader is advised to check other sources to confirm information and to obtain a balanced view of the topic.
Or someone could come along as a dis-interested 3rd party, find some real reaserch on this group, (There are people out there who do that kind of thing) and then put this page under protection with an admin's help.....just because something is a controversial topic doesn't mean someone can't find the truth about it. Homestarmy 13:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  <span style="color:#CC0000;">!!! POV CHECKS WON'T MATTER !!!</span> 

message: "...nevertheless claims to be of Jewish heritage..."
Moishe Rosen claims a great number of things that are to say the least debateable. He is a controversial figure, perhaps an apostate; but he isn't a gentile, and one does not become a gentile by being an apostate or heretic. The wording suggests that he does not live up to his claim.
Matthew Platts 02:19, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moishe Rosen 

message: Why does the introduction make the following commant?
:Jews for Jesus' long-term goal is one of conversion of all Jews to accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah — a position which is usually characterised as  Christianity.
Nowhere does the article imply that they're trying to hide their Christianity, so the comment is somewhat mysterious. Anybody know what it's about? --Yath 20:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it certainly depends on whether you consider modern Judaism today to be the same as Judaism about 2,000 years ago.... Homestarmy 17:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  a position which is usually characterised as  [[Christianity]]