Talk:Pibroch

message: I'm wondering if this is a musical art form from Scotland. Or is it from Wales or Ireland and wound up in Scotland? And do all Celts have this music? I don't know and I'm not finding it out from this article. There's certain things assumed in this article that should not be. Gingermint (talk) 22:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a form of piping that is unique to Gaelic Scotland, it was developed separate from the continental music and used a different scale(or so I'm told as I'm tone deaf) which does not exist outside of Scotland and was a central part of Scottish court culture.  I find the grand pipes best from a distance, but that is just me.C. W. Gilmore (talk) 16:31, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Just Scottish?

message: It would be good to see a brief musical example in notation. Gingermint (talk) 22:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well into the 1800s few pipers in Scotland were classically trained, most learned from teachers doing the Canntaireachd, literally chanting out a sound that was to match a note on the pipes.  Few were written down but one of the few was the Campbell Canntaireachd.C. W. Gilmore (talk) 12:17, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Example

message: It is said that the style of Pìobaireachd is owed partly to the somewhat florid, intricate style of the Baroque. Can we find some sort of ... anything ... on this. Either a yay or nay, but it would be good to have this addressed. Gingermint (talk) 22:18, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a considerable stretch to say that it *developed* from the baroque (though it is equally important to stress that it didn't develop in a musical vacuum, either), but a fair point that there is a similarity, in that both tend to build ornate rhythmic structures on a theme. Calum (talk) 09:32, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Baroque

message: Aren't the /p/ and /r/ supposed to be palatalized? 71.13.148.220 (talk) 03:48, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid I don't speak IPA, so I can only be of limited help here.  By palatalise, I presume you mean bringing the tongue up to the top of the palate?  As pronounced by English speakers, I would say not - however, it's not an English word!  The Gaelic pronunciation, though, will differ widely depending on the region.  Calum (talk) 08:53, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA pronunciation 

message: One particular editor has been making frequent references to recordings by Ann Heymann.
Am I alone in thinking that this is unsuitable?  As most of these performances are of pieces documented in the Campbell cainntearach or others -- so I assume we should only be referencing the pieces by their prime source.
I'm of the opinion that the only place that individual recordings should be considered as citations in this piece is where the artists involved in the harp pibroch revival are first mentioned.
Your thoughts?
Prof Wrong (talk) 10:57, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The footnoted music reference was not provided as "support" for the harp origins of the tune, it was a referencing of this canntaireachd having been transposed recently to the harp.
REF tags should be used to supply supporting evidence to an assertion made in the preceding text.  By your own admission, your "reference" is not intended for this purpose, and thus should not be there.
I have deleted it -- again.  Please do not include references that do not support the article.
Prof Wrong (talk) 12:14, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Specific recordings 

message: I notice that the History section has become exceptionally long, and is going into a lot of detail about the harp.
While I personally find the idea that the Ceòl Mór tradition predates the pipes to be both intuitively and logically sound, it is still not all that widely accepted, so I don't think it should be allowed to dominate in this way.
I reckon we should be starting a section specifically related to harp-pibroch theory.
Prof Wrong (talk) 18:10, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am short of time and not at all knowledgeable about this subject but I agree with both of your last two remarks here. Ben MacDui 19:31, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harp theory -- new section...? 

message: Stickler4accuracy2, regarding your recent edits introducing the term "Fidhleireachd" as a new, and presumably more "authentically" Gaelic designation for "Fiddle pibroch" compositions, it is not the role of an encylopedia to establish new "corrected" usage, but rather to describe, document and situate existing and historical usage, with all of its complexities, contradictions, conventions and mis-translations.
You make this point yourself in your User talk posts when you note that "Wikipedia is supposed to be descriptive, not normative. Therefore, we are stuck with saying "pibroch" encompasses all ceòl mór." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Stickler4accuracy2)
While I appreciate the logic of your argument in your User Talk post that "there would be less confusion if other instrumentalists would always use terms specific to their instruments", determining a new useage outside of current scholarship or accepted common useage amounts to an "original" contribution which is outside of the mandate of the encyclopedia format. 
The reference to the Gaelic dictionary definition of "Fidhleireachd" as "fiddling" doesn't support or document the point being made that "Fidhleireachd" is a term that better describes ceòl mór played on the fiddle, other than that it replicates the confusion resulting from taking "piobaireachd", the general Gaelic term for "piping", as being synonymous with ceòl mór.
Also the usage of the term "Fidhleireachd" in the edits of the opening paragraphs does not adequately account for harp ceòl mór repertoire being one of the likely sources of fiddle pibroch.
Clearly the designation "Fiddle Pibroch" has problems given it implies the fiddle repertoire is derived from and imitative of Bagpipe Pibroch. Current research would suggest rather that a core number of Fiddle Pibroch compositions are simply not readily playable on the bagpipes and are likely to have been adapted directly from the wire-strung harp repertoire or composed specifically for the fiddle. 
Some fiddle pibroch repertoire however, does seem to be more or less equivalent to bagpipe ceòl mór/pibroch and this would suggest a concurrent interchange of repertoire and performance techniques across the instruments, and supports the commonly used pibroch nomenclature.
This interchange has also characterised the recent revival of the genre with bagpipe pibroch/ceòl mór compositions being newly transcribed to the fiddle, wire-harp and flute.
Regarding the User Talk argument that the "broadening of meaning of the word pibroch represents recent English practice" its worth noting that the "Dictionary of the Scots language" gives the earliest documentation of the term pibroch in 1719 (see ref 5).
Regarding your user talk argument that "others have wanted to use the term for similar music on their instruments" and your edit to the article stating that "recent publications for English-speaking audiences have extended the use of piobaireachd to instruments other than bagpipes", the assumption that this is only a recent occurance is not supported by recent scholarship.
The Henry Atkinson manuscript, 1694 (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Atkinson_manuscript) is a Northern English fiddlers tune book compiled by Henry Atkinson, with bowing indications and tunes requiring scordatura. It includes the composition "A Highland Pibroch – The Irish Gilekrankey (HA101)". The pibroch designation was written by hand at a later date (assumed to be in the 18th century). The piece has an analogous theme and variation structure to pibroch but is not playable on the bagpipes and is presumed to have been transcribed from the wire-harp repertoire. (for an analysis of the tune, see: http://www.village-music-project.org.uk/info_files/atkinson_info.htm)
A Gaelic precedent for the term "fiddle pibroch" can also be found with the lyric "pìobaireachd's fidhleireachd" employed in the Gaelic language song "Baile na Traghad" composed by Michael Mor Domhnullach (Big Michael MacDonald) in the late 18th century (published in Rev. A. MacLean Sinclair's "Gaelic Bards," 1896) which perhaps suggests that "fiddle pibroch" is a Scots anglicisation of 18th century gaelic useage and convention.
On balance, the current consensus amongst scholars and musicians, and particularly Gaelic speaking pipers, would be to use the general term ceòl mór.
Pibroch/piobaireachd is also generally accepted through useage as being synonymous with ceòl mór, and is assumed to primarily refer to bagpipe ceòl mór unless another instrument is explicitly named. 
Some of your edits to the article have tidied up collective contributions in the opening paragraphs. However, I wanted to give you some more detailed background to further re-edits I will be making to bring the article into line with its encyclopedia criteria.
Have a happy New Year.
Longtale (talk) 07:26, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pibroch/Ceol Mor terminology for related music on other instruments 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Pibroch. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110611002457/http://www.spanglefish.com:80/billtaylor/index.asp?pageid=235174 to http://spanglefish.com/billtaylor/index.asp?pageid=235174
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110216120945/http://www.spanglefish.com:80/BillTaylor/index.asp?pageid=74247 to http://www.spanglefish.com/BillTaylor/index.asp?pageid=74247
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 20:12, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Pibroch. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110611002452/http://www.spanglefish.com:80/billtaylor/index.asp?pageid=235173 to http://spanglefish.com/billtaylor/index.asp?pageid=235173
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110718105531/http://www.armaghpipers.org:80/artists/bandRe.html to http://www.armaghpipers.org/artists/bandRe.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 02:22, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Pibroch. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20150403125818/http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/CampbellVol2/chehotraohodro.pdf to http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/CampbellVol2/chehotraohodro.pdf
*Added archive {newarchive} to http://spanglefish.com/billtaylor/index.asp?pageid=74247;
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20150403132009/http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/Campbellcant/one%20of%20the%20irish.pdf to http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/Campbellcant/one%20of%20the%20irish.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20150403134313/http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/MacDonaldjnr/okellyslament.pdf to http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/MacDonaldjnr/okellyslament.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20150403134458/http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/CampbellVol2/brianoduffslament.pdf to http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/CampbellVol2/brianoduffslament.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20150403135733/http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/NeilMacleodGhesto/irishtune.pdf to http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/NeilMacleodGhesto/irishtune.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20141017131527/http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/CampbellVol2/theendofthelittlebridge.pdf to http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/CampbellVol2/theendofthelittlebridge.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20141017131616/http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/Campbellcant/hughslament.pdf to http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/Campbellcant/hughslament.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20141017131620/http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/CampbellVol2/samualsblackdog.pdf to http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/CampbellVol2/samualsblackdog.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20141017131623/http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/AngusMacKayManuscript/earlofantrimlament.pdf to http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/images/stories/AngusMacKayManuscript/earlofantrimlament.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 02:58, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified