Talk:Patriots (Metal Gear)

message: There's no Chinese alphabet. 80.133.247.62 13:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

message: For me it's obvious that that codec-call came from GW, and not Rose herself. It was an attempt of the Patriots to mess up the brains of Raiden, like the calls from Campbell during that part of the game. (Otacon found out that the transmissions from Campbell came from GW, remember?)
:Throughout the game, the Rose we're talking to with the codec is the real one. However she is replaced by an AI Rose towards the end of the game, when the Patriots reveal the truth of the S3 plan. But the real Rose is also an agent of the Patriots (even though she may not have realized who she was trully working for) as she was hired to seduce Raiden. Folken de Fanel 11:43, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: She told it to Raiden herself, in Arsenal Gear, in her last communication with him before she was replaced by an AI. Folken de Fanel 12:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rosemary really an agent?

message: Is there anything we can say in this article that isn't going to be sourced to a quote in the game, or a first-party making-of or behind-the-scenes work? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anything? Hello? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outside sources 

message: Go to the picture of the 12 men on this article in the history section and compare the picture of the patriot 2nd in one down to the picture of the Director of Central Intelligence what can be found on List of characters in Metal Gear Solid 3
the Director of Central Intelligence and the picture on this artical both look the same the Director of Central Intelligence's biography says he might be a patriot because of his high connections in goverment. User:Kami-Sama
::Those are the Philosophers. There are no recorded names for the Patriots since Ocelot is in control of them. The one you mentioned here is a fictional version of Richard M. Helms...who, in the game, is killed by Ocelot on his way to the CIA shelter. The real Richad M. Helms died a much less eventuful death. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.250.214.91 (talk) 09:11, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Director of Central Intelligence a patriot 

message: I've added a lot of information to the article based on information from the FMVs in Portable Ops. I've added the following paragraphs:
"In Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops, the antagonist, Gene, wishes to create a nation of soldiers, not unlike what Big Boss would try to accomplish decades later with Outer Heaven; however, as he tells Naked Snake, his idea of that nation is "an organization of shadows, without shape or form", that "will lurk deep underground and intervene in conflicts all over the world" and control history. Not only does that description fit in the description of the Patriots, but it is also similar to a voiceover of Old Snake used in trailers for Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots about the "proxy wars" that are happening, supposedly, between Liquid Snake and the Patriots. Gene calls his grand nation "Army's Heaven"; Snake answers his speech stating that he is just using soldiers for his own goals and that his country "is no heaven to soldiers", for their ideal place "is outside [Gene's] heaven" - a clear reference to the name "Outer Heaven" and a subtle one to Big Boss's and Liquid Snake's plan.
Also, in Portable Ops Ocelot reveals that he plans to end the Philosophers and that "[they] will carry on the spirit of the true patriot", seemingly a reference to the Patriots; he also adds that "it's all part of [their] plan to make the world she envisioned a reality", which many assume to be a reference to The Boss's dream of a unified world. In a phone call between Ocelot and an unidentified person, Ocelot reveals that it was all a plan of that person, who had manipulated the FOX Unit behind the scenes. Ocelot tells the person that he or she wouldn't be using him as a puppet anymore, which may indicate that he hasn't been following orders during the incidents of the games but that he is acting on his own will, but immediately starts repeating, in a surprised and/or confused tone, what the person is telling him: "Battle data?... From the Perfect Soldier? Genes... genome?... I see... Intriguing..." - which seem to be references to genetic projects related to the "soldier gene" so refered to in Metal Gear Solid and possibly to the Les Enfants Terribles and Genome Soldiers projects. Ocelot promises the person that he will help him/her with the project, but on one condition, that they convince Big Boss to join them, "so that [they] can become the Patriots".
Many assume that the person with whom Ocelot is allied with is either Roy Campbell or Major Zero - the first, because Ocelot says "Well, I'll be damned" when he's contacted by the man who has been getting him information, and Campbell says the exact same thing when he meets Snake; the second, because the person who was collaborating with Gene (supposed to be Ocelot, since both men were been receiving information from another spy) had been informed, based on Gene's suposition, by "the man with the same codename as Null", who possibly is Major Zero (since "zero" and "null" both mean "nothing"). However it may be, it is safe to assume that man is the one behind the Patriots.
On another note, it seems like the Wisemen's Committe, who have been dead for more than one hundred years according to Otacon, are not the leaders of the Patriots, but of the original Philosophers, since Ocelot had been searching for documents about the Philosophers to start the Patriots."
It has some speculation, but it is all based on the community's opinions about the plot, as you can see in the Metal Gear Solid: The Unofficial Site Forum. If you wish to cut it out only to the information that's not speculation, feel free, but remember that having this information without the speculation regarding the Wisemen's Committee and the contrast between Gene's "Army's Heaven" and Big Boss's "Outer Heaven" will contradict information already displayed on the article, as the fact that the Committee has been dead for over one hundred years - how can Ocelot be creating the Patriots if its creators were already dead? That's what I was trying to explain, through the community's fundamented suppositions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.180.133.182 (talk) 22:15, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: since Ocelot had been searching for documents about the Philosophers to "revive" them.  Ocelot could also simply have meant the "revival" of the organization itself, not of principal members. - Actually, in the talk between Ocelot and the DCI, Ocelot tells the DCI that he wants to end the Philosophers,  so obviously he doesn't want to revive them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.180.133.182 (talk) 20:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

text: It was rather overlong (longer than the existing article!) and overdetailed (essentially a plot summary for Portable Ops), so I've abbreviated it, but I plan to fold much of the additional details into the Organizational History section- and I plan to do a bit of a re-write to make it clear what the significance of the Patriots is to the series. Anything speculative or based on discussions between fans about what stuff might mean isn't really includeable, I'm afraid. Hyperspacey 15:30, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, what I wrote was a bit long, and I don't mind it being shortened. Your paragraph is quite good, but it misses some points - the Patriots are not the evolution of the Philosophers, since Ocelot, who seems to be a key member of the Patriots, even more relevant than we thought, says that he's going to "end them". I'm just going to add that, plus that Ocelot was apparently a founder of the Patriots and that Big Boss apparently was at least invited to join them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.196.5.120 (talk) 23:08, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Big Boss definately joined. He has Gene's half of the legacy. Not to mention his joining was a condition of the Les Infantes project, which definately DID happen. It is becoming obvious now that Outer Heaven and Solid Snake being sent in was just a repeat of Snake Eater. Big Boss established Outer Heaven on the Patriot's behalf, it wasn't a revolt against America or anything. Solid Snake was to inherit his nation because Liquid Snake was too much of a failure. Instead, no one inherited it due to refusal, just like the end of Snake Eater. Also worth noting that Ocelot did indeed being back the Philosophers after Snake Eater. He was their pawn for 7 years until he got sick of it and killed them all. I don't think he liked the idea of them hiding in a bunker while America fell apart, leaving all the armies and citizens to die off.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.250.214.91 (talk) 09:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is merely unsupported speculations, you have nothing proving anything you said. You've merely written a fanfic. Article discussion are not for this. Folken de Fanel 13:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portable Ops Information 

message: I've noticed at least one redlink regarding The Philosophers and there may be others.  Should The Philosophers be directed to this article, The Patriots?  Or should we wait until The Philosophers have its own article? If this has been discussed before, my humblest apologies. Ripberger 21:14, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect Questions