Talk:Jenna Jameson/Archive 2

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Josie_Maran
the rumor was started here by someone misquoting the Stern show: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Josie_Maran&diff=16720720&oldid=15413260
"An avowed bisexual, Josie revealed on the Howard Stern show that despite having a long-time boyfriend she also enjoys sex with women, including adult movie actress Jenna Jameson."
Josie Maran and David Blained talked about her liking porn, and hooking up with other model/actresses on Howard Stern's show, but Jenna's name was never mentioned. There's never been a quote of Josie mentioning Jenna.
Video from the Stern show here: http://josiemaran-world.com/josie-maran.com/downloads/motion/JMhs4.wmv
the rest of the show can be found here: http://josiemaran-world.com/josie-maran.com/motion.htm
the site which was cited by the Jenna Jameson wiki, http://www.allamericanspeakers.com/newspeakerbio/2457/index.php , just copy and pasted from the 21 September 2005 revision of the Josie Maran wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Josie_Maran&oldid=23667115, which contains the above error. Shiyan 20:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Josie Maran rumor removed 

message: just a little discrepancy, but i didnt change it cos i have no idea what the truth is.  In the 'Personal Life' section it is implicit in the wording that jenna and jay are still 'happily married' at their 2million dollar ranch, but in the trivia section Jay is described as jenna's ex-husband, can someone who knows better than me fix this.
: End of the section specifies that they separated in August 2006. AnonEMouse (squeak) 14:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jay Grdina husband or ex-husband? 

message: Per the question above, I would very much like people's input as to what we can do to get this article to Featured Article status (or damn well close to it). So if you have any suggestions, please feel free to fire away. Thank you. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. Think out loud — WP:PORN BIO? 21:25, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just an update: I'm starting a rewrite of the article on my username space. I will post a link when it is ready. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. Think out loud — WP:PORN BIO? 00:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What do we need to do to make this a [[WP:FA|Featured Article]]? 

message: I would like to get a straw poll going to see if people believe that this article is achieving the following criteria laid out at Wikipedia:What is a featured article? Therefore, after each question, please vote yes or no with supporting reasons as to why you've voted yes or no.
# Is the article well written? (See: Wikipedia:Article development.)
#* No. While the article is decently written, the flow of the article needs a lot of work. The more recent additions, spanning from earlier this year to now, were added to the article without regard to how the entire article would be affected. (Imagine a stone garden, where each rock thrown into it ripples out and affects the other stones in the garden. It's the same effect that I see here.) Also, there seems to be a slight POV problem, which starts off from the lead paragraph that should be corrected immediately. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. Think out loud — WP:PORN BIO? 22:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Feature Article checklist 

message: Joe,
re. Jenna's info.  You can go direct to her people, to get info and source data.  Why not do it the easy way, vs. the unknown if "true or false" information (be it PR, polishing or outright gossip -- unknown if "valid"), when trolling through the many many sites -- You still never know what is true or false, just because it is "published," or "on a site."
Jenna is unique in the industry.  Even if she provides info. w/ a spin, I'm sure it is easily "second sourced" by a referenced site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.39.202 (talk • contribs) 
: Unfortunately, we're not here to write the truth, merely what is verifiable. That's not necessarily the same thing. If we know something to be true, but don't have a verifiable source that says so, we can't write it. So we do need to find sources first, for us they're literally more important than the truth. Fortunately for this article, she did write a published autobiography, which should help a lot. Everything she says there may or may not be true, but is verifiable. AnonEMouse (squeak) 18:23, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  JJ info 

message: I confess to having only a passing knowledge of who Jenna Jameson is, but I was channel surfing through the E! True Hollywood Story tonight and found the documentary, already in progress, which cites were birth year as 1964, including all the subsequent years moved back 10 years ("as a 16-year-old in 1990") from what's shown in this article. The show had interviews with her and her brother confirming these dates,  And even a photo of her mother's gravestone dated 1966. I've changed the dates in this article accordingly and added the reference. It's also possible that I missed the beginning of the documentary that mentioned why her age is reported as ten years younger. Crunch 00:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The online pages said 1974 back when I cited them. They seem to be down now, but I linked to the Internet Archive copies that you can check. We'll need stronger sources to move it back 10 years. AnonEMouse (squeak) 20:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of Birth 

message: Trivia includes "Has never done an anal scene on camera" by 71.233.47.227, who has no other Wikipedia edits. I reverted the edit and then had second thoughts. I found it on recent changes and I do not know enough about the subject to say whether this is vandalism or not. KeepItClean 23:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I found this source -- http://www.bridgemagazine.org/online/features/archive/000113.php -- which says she never did it as of 2001, but I also found this chat log, where she says that she was planning to do anal on film as of 2000 -- http://www.adultdvdtalk.com/chat/jenna_jameson.asp?  So it's debatable. AnonEMouse (squeak) 03:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I weaseled out of the issue by writing that she promised herself never to do so, but avoided writing whether she kept that promise or not. :-P. AnonEMouse (squeak) 08:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anal scene 

message: In the biography section it states that Jenna Jameson performed in a Incest Porn movie with her father and brother, which obviously means she had sex with her own father and brother on screen!! This is obviously completely false and is an act of vandalism. I tried to edit this out and was unable to, as for some reason the incest text appears on the main page but is completely missing from the edit page!!  How is this possible? Try it yourself, read the article and you will see the Incest sentence, go to "Edit Page" and the sentence is not there! Someone who knows the reason for this needs to rectify it asap.
The above was written by Cole1982
:The reason that you can't find it when you try to edit the article is because between the time that you're computer loaded the article and when you tried to edit the article, I already took it out. If you load the article again and hit refresh, you'll see that it's not there anymore. Check the article history and you'll see I took it out. And please sign your posts with four tildès like so: ~~~~. Thanks, Dismas|(talk) 13:47, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Incest Porn Film

message: I never knew there was such a thing. Isn't this some sort of oxymoron? And don't go trying to say porn is art either.
:Porn is art. --Eniac turing 12:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Porn is art. Tolstoy the Little Black Cat 20:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Art is porn. Obbop68.13.191.153 02:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I think the term "important" is POV, and another word should probably be used in its place. Perhaps "pornographic career highlights" or something similar would be best? -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. Think out loud — WP:PORN BIO? 03:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Porn must be important, how else would you explain the multi-billion dollar industry? And, morals and tastes aside, you can't deny the importance of a film like Deep Throat, whose very existence is a pillar of the free speech movement. RobbieNomi 05:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Important Pornographic Work 

message: I'm happy to say that this article passes every Good Article criteria with flying colors. It is absolutely, in my view, worthy of Good Article status. Bravo (or brava) to everyone who worked on it. It is extremely well-referenced, contains great prose, has illustrative pictures (all with proper raionales), and it follows a logical structure. I personally don't like the big block quotes, but that's mere opinion. My advice would be to give the page another thorough copyedit, and then I think it would be ready to be a Featured Article candidate. -- Kicking222 15:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow! A very Good Thing™!—Chidom talk  20:03, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Good Article!

message: "Her mother was Judith Brooke Hunt Massoli, a Las Vegas showgirl who danced at the Tropicana and the Folies-Bergère." Are you sure this is the Folies-Bergère in Paris, as the wikilink implies? The NYT article that is cited does not specifically say so. In the context of Las Vegas, it is more likely the Folies-Bergère show at the Tropicana mentioned in the same sentence. --Rosenzweig 21:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right. This is even more explicit. There's actually another thing not quite right about that New York Times article, where it says that 2003 was her first cover, that's clearly a typo; but I'm going to fight tooth and nail to keep the article there, as it is the NYT. Anyway, changing our article text to be more specific. AnonEMouse (squeak) 21:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Folies-Bergère 

message: I followed your suggestions about Hot D'Or, clarified the Penthouse bit, removing the AskMen ref. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a good source for High Society, Cheri, and Hustler - we'll have to live without it. I found a reasonable source for implants, and broke that out into a separate paragraph - was that a good idea or a bad one? Is that all? Are we ready to nom for FA? AnonEMouse (squeak) 15:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm ... "two sets of breast implants"? Sounds a bit like she had them simultaneously, making her a strange person indeed. Also, there's one of those "woulds" again :-) I think you should reword that. How about "... birthday, which were later replaced by different implants. She also has a chin implant." I'm not quite sure about this implant business. It's obvious that she had breast implants at some point, she says she had them replaced later, and the NYT article says she has a chin implant (what for? I ask myself. Is there any other source for this?) Was there any other surgery of the cosmetic kind? Tabercil once linked to a page stating she also had plastic surgery (beyond the fake breasts). Perhaps that would be worth mentioning. But perhaps it's only gossip. Unfortunately, your source  isn't there anymore, I get a 404 error.The sentence about her brother tattooing her backside is still in the article. I still think that should be removed, there's only one source for this, and it's in contradiction to what she writes herself in her autobiography (see above; she writes that her brother decided to open a tattoo shop himself, even though he had never held a tattoo gun before in his life. That was in 1997 or 1998, well after she got the tattoo, so it just can't be her brother who added the text.) Finally, it's not relevant at all for the article. Dubious and not relevant = remove.I don't really know what is expected of a Featured Article here in the English wikipedia. If I were to nominate it for Exzellente Artikel in the German wikipedia, I'd say reduce the trivia. For instance, just tell that she is dating Ortiz and that they are living together, throw out his appearance before the Marine Corps. Keep the wax figure, but remove the whispered message. Keep the autobiography's content, but throw out that the books are numbered with Roman numerals and preceded by sonnets. And so on. Ask yourself: what is really relevant for an article in an encyclopaedia? This is what I would suggest, and this is what was suggested by many others during the successful nomination of the German version of this article (see below). Once again, I don't know if that is what would be expected here in the English wikipedia as well. Once it is nominated, I'll have to keep an eye on the discussion and see what happens.Another thing that was mentioned over the course of the nomination at de.wp was that the article doesn't tell the reader much about how Jameson is perceived outside the US. She was invited to Oxford to debate, so obviously she must be known in the UK, and there's an Australian article among the references, but that's all (or did I overlook something?) Was her book published outside the US? If so, how were the reactions (at least in the English-speaking contries, like the UK, Australia etc.)? A German translation was published, by a large publisher, and it did get reviews; Germany's biggest illustrated magazine, Stern, ran a story on her just after the US edition of her book was published, and even before the German translation hit the shelves. They called her "the uncrowned queen of hardcore" (die ungekrönte Königin des Hardcore) and "in the USA, something like the Julia Roberts of porno - a superstar" (in den USA so was wie die Julia Roberts des Pornos - ein Superstar). If you want go for Featured Article, those are things worth considering. It doesn't have to be a large paragraph, two sentences or so would be nice. (And yes, I know I'm a demanding nuisance, but once you nominate the article for FA, be prepared for more of this from others ;-) --Rosenzweig 20:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks very much, you're still invaluable. This would be my first FA, though I've looked at a few by other people. I'll try to reword the implants bit; the source link works fine for for me. Tabercil's source seems to be something like a fan site, while Star (magazine) is a tabloid, but it's a very popular one. :-) OK, I will remove the brother, but did think it was an interesting bit. I can shorten the Ortiz/Marine Corps bit, but I do think it's important enough to keep - if she were just dating him, that would be trivial, people date people all the time - but the incident shows (1) that she is a controversial enough figure to be excluded from certain events (2) that their relationship is committed enough that he prefers to lose work rather than not be accompanied by her. Can also cut the roman numerals and the whispered message. International impact is implied by the fact she raked in all those Hot D'Or awards, but that's not explicit, I admit. I couldn't find much with, possibly because I don't know where to look, but, frankly, don't think its absence is critical. Looking at other Wikipedia:Featured articles about modern actresses - Uma Thurman, Lindsay Lohan, Katie Holmes - most don't have anything about international reception (even though I'm sure more of their works have been translated into other languages than Jameson's!). I'd be happy if you could find something, such as in the Stern article, that we could cite, of course - I put it through a Google translation, and it does seem to mention the whisky, for example. AnonEMouse (squeak) 00:18, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Breast implants section rephrased, and I moved the image that best demonstrates them closer there, and restored the full length one. That only leaves finding a place for the long blonde hair one that Tabercil liked best - there should be a way to make everybody happy! Will work on the rest. Continued comments welcome. AnonEMouse (squeak) 14:10, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The star magazine link works for you? That's strange, I still get a 404 error. http://www.starmagazine.com/ says "Page unavailable/under construction". I've also tried from another computer at another location, different operating system, different web browser, but the same result.The Stern article is mostly based on her book, everything substantial that is said in there is already in one or more other source(s). The point is that if a major magazine like this prints an article on that person, there must be an interest in her in that country. --Rosenzweig 14:18, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Perhaps they really only want US users. But why don't they just say so then instead of displaying bogus error pages? The proxy link works here, thank you. --Rosenzweig 17:24, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  All right, I got rid of the Roman numerals, whispered message, shortened Ortiz/Marines. I rephrased the brother/tattoo, emphasizing it's according to one source - is that good enough? If not, I will reluctantly cut it out entirely. For international, I looked but couldn't find articles on impact, but did find Spanish and German autobiography translations on Amazon, and gave ISBNs. Apparently there aren't any French or Japanese translations, the next most likely suspects. I couldn't think of an appropriate place for the long hair pic, sorry Tabercil, but if you find a good place yourself, please put it in and I will be happy. If you look below, you'll see I'm not the only one itching for the FA nom - anything more? --AnonEMouse (squeak) 20:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Final set?

message: Thought you might be interested: a somewhat shortened translation of this article into German done by another user (Achim Raschka), subsequently heavily edited by me, was just elected to be a Lesenswerter Artikel (Article worth reading) in the German wikipedia. That's the equivalent of a Good Article, but there's an actual voting procedure. You can find the discussion here. (But it's in German, of course ;-)) Three users opposed it, two mainly because they didn't think an article about a porn actress should be awarded this label, one because he felt there were too many yellow-press references (he admitted that he didn't even read the article, only looked at the references). The original translator, who nominated it, was neutral, as were five others who felt that the article's language and content still needed some work. One changed his vote from oppose to neutral because he felt that the article had improved considerably over the period of its candidacy, but he didn't have enough time to reevaluate it. 16 users supported it. --Rosenzweig 20:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Successful nomination at de: 

message: I'm working on cleaning up the grammar/spelling on this page. I'm not making any significant changes to content. I only hope to improve the readability. Feel free to compare versions or email me with questions. Thanks --Legomancer 10:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly good intententions, but I'd welcome a bit more diligence. By replacing "Randall" with "him", you made Suze Randall into a man. --Rosenzweig 14:26, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar Police 

message: Before you take this article to FAC (which must surely be long overdue), don't forget to add accessdates to all the online references. It's a pain, I know, (and that's why I'm not doing it myself ;) ) but it's regularly brought up on FAC. Other than that the article looks great. Trebor 00:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did message your talk page AnonEMouse, but I'm unsure if the message didn't get to you or not. In short, the article uses the Jenna Jameson book as a source - the article doesn't provide specific page numbers for each citation though. You'll have to use specific page numbers when using the book as a source, or it'll be brought up as an issue at FAC. LuciferMorgan 05:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, it didn't make it to my talk page. Eeek! That's at least equally dull work - and it will push the different ref citations count well over the 100 mark, since they're all from different pages. You are probably right though, that it does need to be done. I'll do it myself if I absolutely have to - I do have access to a copy of the auto bio, but it's not easy access. Hmm - I wonder if I can push it off onto Rosenzweig, since he seems to be able to get his hands on it much easier, and did introduce most of those? :-) --AnonEMouse (squeak) 17:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the autobiography is directly cited 7 times in the article. I've found page references for 4 of them, leaving only 3 to go: the date of her set of implants, Wicked signing her to an exclusive and Jay Grdina entering porn after college. Tabercil 23:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

text: The implants are on pages 169/170 of the book (first implants) and 487/488 (second implants). The exclusive contract is book IV, chapters 5 and 6, pages 341 to 351. How Grdina first came into the porn industry in 1982 is on page 498. It does not explicitly say it was after college, though; that's from Forbes. --Rosenzweig 00:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Rosenzweig. All the autobio segments should now have specific page references to them. Tabercil 08:19, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Accessdates

message: On her official myspace page she is now claiming she is straight and no longer bi-sexual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.110.152.240 (talk • contribs) 07:27, February 8, 2007
: Thanks; do you just mean the orientation box on the left side, or is it more detailed than that somewhere? If it's just the box, I think we can stay the way we have it, her relationship history is more extensive and complex than can be covered in one word anyway, quite possibly she picked one based on having a steady straight relationship now. If she makes a big deal of it somewhere, please do say. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 14:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am sorry I wasn't more clear.  On myspace.com pages, she has an official one, which I am pretty sure is quote in this article somewhere, she has changed her sexual orienation from bi-sexual to straight. Take a look yourself. Scroll all the way to the bottom and its on the left under her "In a Relationship" status with Tito. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.110.152.240 (talk) 07:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks. Yes, that's what I thought you meant. Considering most sources, including her autobiography, go into a fiar amout of detail about her having been bi for a large number of years, I think we should leave it at that for now, rather than go with a single word on her myspace page, which we don't have details on when it was written or why. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 14:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sexual Orientation Change 

message: Using "Adult film" is being politically correct which is a violation of our POV policy. --TRFA 12:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not that clear cut, unfortunately, as "Adult film" is a term used by the industry itself... -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. Think out loud 14:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adult vs. Porn 

message: Restoring to original phrasing. The FAC review is right that it's poorly phrased otherwise. We're stating it as a fact, but then we're stating everythign as a fact. All we know is that a Wikipedia: Reliable source says so, in this case articles in two reputable newspapers. They may be taking it solely from the autobiography or not, we don't know, but they state it as a fact, so we can, unless some similarly reliable source questions it. No one has questioned it, to my knowledge. Note that, unlike the later rape, it does not accuse anyone in particular. The later one does, so we are careful to mark that one as "she says" or similar. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 15:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gang rape phrasing