Talk:Lithuanian Civil War (1432–1438)

message: This "war" was between Svitrigaila (Lithuania) and Jogaila (Poland) as Svitrigaila became Grand Duke of Lithuania without approval from Poland and did not agree to acknowledge superiority of Jogaila. He allied himself with Teutonic Knights and others (Livonia, Ruthenia, Moldovia, Tatars, etc.) In 1432 Svitrigaila was deposed by Sigismund Kestutaitis and a civil war erupted. It all ended in the Battle of Pabaiskas and Sigismund became the Grand Duke. Would like to hear some suggestions were to move the article. Civil war in Lithuania (1431–1435)? Renata (talk) 01:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is known as PTW in Polish historiography. How is it known in Lithuanian? And more important, in English? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  18:20, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: William Urban in his Tannenberg and After spends pages 306-313 to describe the conflict. He does not give a proper name, but mentions that it was a civil war caused by succession disputes. Usually his writing is from Teutonic perspective, but this time it's clear that the reason and force behind this war was Svitrigaila. Davis calls it "civil war in Lithuania" (God's playground, vol 1, page 135). There definite hostilities between PL and TE, but it was just a part of the larger civil-succession war in Lithuania. Renata (talk) 05:31, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly a civil war in Lithuania was a part of it (and once this is expanded, will deserve its own article as a subarticle), but since other parties got involved, and fought each other, the civil war seems to have turned into a normal war. We can ask at WP:MILHIST if this argument is valid. As I've noted aboove, Polish historians use the term PTwar, and it is also used in English: Jędrzej Giertych, Brazilla Carroll Reece in Poland and Germany: A Reply to Congressman B. Carrol Reece of Tennessee: "There were new wars between Poland and the Teutonic Order in 1414, 1419, 1420—1422, 1431—1433, 1435, 1454—1466". Uniwersytet Warszawski Instytut Historyczny, Polskie Towarzystwo Historyczne Commission d'histoire médiévale, Quaestiones Medii Aevi: "This became the cause of a war in 1431 — 1435 between Poland and...". Stanislaus F. Belch, Paulus Vladimiri and His Doctrine Concerning International Law and Politic: "was occasioned by the renewal of war by the Order against Poland in 1431". Gerard Labuda, Stanisław Salmonowicz, Historia Pomorza, "Further hostilities between Poland and the Teutonic Knights; ... The war in the years 1431—1435". John France, The Crusades and the Expansion of Catholic Christendom, 1000-1714: "After Tannenberg, war between Poland and the Order dragged on until 1435". --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  18:05, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In all cases you cite the "war" is taken complete out of context and put with other wars - much different in circumstances. As I said, no one denies there were hostilities, but they were all part of a bigger conflict in Lithuania. Read the expanded article - though it still needs work, it gives a much better overview on what was going on. And you cannot really separate the PL-TE aspect from LT civil war. You would have two nearly identical articles repeating one another. Renata (talk) 22:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

text: I think Eric Christiansen in his The Northern Crusades sums it up well: Grand Master von Russdof (...) grew friendly with the ancient Witold, and with his successor Svitrigal, but his intervention in the Lithuanian succession dispute of 1431-5 was not a success. (p. 242) Renata (talk) 22:55, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Let's start with the new name: I am not convinced it is better either by the evidence provided (0 Google Print hits) and logic.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  13:17, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: One actually. We do not require that our disambiguator be common usage. That's not, I agree, much. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:01, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

text: The problem with current title is that it completely misses the entire point and reason for the conflict. PL-LT-TE war does not seem ok to me because there were two Lithuanians: one of Svitrigaila and another of Sigismund Kestutaitis, and the point of the war is still unclear. How about War of Lithuanian Succession (following Eric Christiansen)? No parties mentioned in the title, yet the point of the war is expressed exactly. Renata (talk) 17:01, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a pretty name - but unused in literature. I've illustrated that this war has a clear name in Polish historiography (one that translates as the PTW); how is it called in Lithuanian? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  19:34, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been quite established that there is no name for it in English (as usual). In Lithuanian it also does not have a proper name, just generic "civil war", "succession dispute", etc. So we need a descriptive term. I believe "War of Lithuanian Succession" is the most descriptive & neutral. Renata (talk) 20:10, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe using the estabilished name from Polish historiography is better. We should try to find out if there is a German name, though.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  04:37, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's Polish-Teutonic(German) War in Hungarian, so let's leave it at that. Wandalstouring (talk) 11:37, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Common English name

message: There are at least 4 non-Polish & non-Lithuanian historians writing in English who refer to this conflict as some sort of "civil war" or "succession dispute" and spend at least a sentence to describe its essence: 
* Daniel Stone: ... policies in Lithuania prolonged the civil war that had broken out after Vytautas died in 1430. (p. 22)
* Norman Davies: civil war in Lithuania (p.135)
* William Urban: succession crisis in Lithuania (p. 335)
* Eric Christiansen: Lithuanian succession dispute of 1431-5 (p. 242)
Those are only ones I have print copies of - instead of relying on scrapped Ghits. The first two are known for their works on Polish history, the last two - from works on Teutonic/Crusade history. None of Piotrus ghits hold any water:
* Jędrzej Giertych, Brazilla Carroll Reece in Poland and Germany: A Reply to Congressman B. Carrol Reece of Tennessee: "There were new wars between Poland and the Teutonic Order in 1414, 1419, 1420—1422, 1431—1433, 1435, 1454—1466". - As PMAnderson said, there was war between Russia and Sweden in 1700-1721, but it is known as the Great Northern War. And in the list given three wars have their proper names: Hunger, Gollub, and Thirteen Years' Wars
* Uniwersytet Warszawski Instytut Historyczny, Polskie Towarzystwo Historyczne Commission d'histoire médiévale, Quaestiones Medii Aevi: "This became the cause of a war in 1431 — 1435 between Poland and...". - you cannot even see what the "and" part is. Same as #1. Would be interesting to know the cause, though.
* Stanislaus F. Belch, Paulus Vladimiri and His Doctrine Concerning International Law and Politic: "was occasioned by the renewal of war by the Order against Poland in 1431". - all it says the order attacked Poland in 1431. "War" is not described. 
* Gerard Labuda, Stanisław Salmonowicz, Historia Pomorza, "Further hostilities between Poland and the Teutonic Knights; ... The war in the years 1431—1435". - yes, there was a war in those years. What kind of war is quite another question.
* John France, The Crusades and the Expansion of Catholic Christendom, 1000-1714: "After Tannenberg, war between Poland and the Order dragged on until 1435". - Why? How were the wars in between called?
While the war remains too obscure to have any proper name, it's quite clear it was about succession in Lithuania. Wikipedia's title should reflect that. Renata (talk) 06:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not about correcting or proving your history thesis. I even agree with your logic (not with your critique of sources) and the "Lithuanian War of Succession" is nice - but ORish. You should publish an article about this war, giving it a name and arguing for it. Then we can use your new name in our article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  16:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My thesis? How about descriptions presented by non-Polish and non-Lithuanian historians in their well-respected works on Polish and Teutonic history? If you don't like War of Lithuanian Succession as a reasonable compromise, let's follow Davis, Stone, and Britannica (in article about Jogaila) by naming it Lithuanian civil war (1431–1435), my original proposal. I hope you won't argue that Davis and Britannica are ORish too. Renata (talk) 17:53, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Dubious. As I've shown above, the civil war was only a part of the larger Polish-Teutonic War, and this is why its referred to as a war (not a civil one) by so many authors..--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  18:00, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Shown above? Where? You need to get your history straight. Christiansen and Urban, who write extensively about Teutonic history, make it clear that Teutonic Knights got involved in the civil war in Lithuania, and not the other way around. I would like to see your sources, other than Ghit scraps where you cannot see more than five words. If you don't have them, I guess I'll proceed with the move. Renata (talk) 18:26, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You are free to proceed with a WP:RM, as I object to a move to the name hardly supported even by Lithuanian historiography, not to mention Polish/English/German and so on. I repeat: the civil war in Lithuania was only part of a wider conflict, which included hostilities along the Polish-Teutonic border, and involved also Pomeranian dukes and the Czech Hussites (and probably some other parties, too).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  19:31, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hardly supported? 5 pure indisputable English references provided. For Lithuanian historiography, there is no proper name, but there is plenty of descriptive names ("civil war", "succession dispute" and variations thereupon) when writing about Svitrigaila and Sigismund. Part of the larger PL-TE war? Any non-nationalistic sources on that to counter Urban and Christiansen? Which one started first? According to Britannica article on Jogaila, PL-TE war ended in 1432. According to your own addition from Polish sources, some historians fracture the "bigger and wider" PL-TE war into periods of 1431-33 and 1435, when Lithuanian civil war continued from 1431 to 1435 (and technically to 1437, when Svitrigaila gave up). Just how Battle of Pabaiskas fits into the PL-TE war? Neither Poland not Teutons were biggest forces in that battle. Hussite invasion is part of much wider and bigger Hussite Wars and sometimes actually better known then the entire PL-TE war (Stephen Turnbull in Tannenberg 1410 mentions the invasion, but not the war (p. 84)). Renata (talk) 22:21, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Analysis

message: Dear Renata, please use proper procedure - WP:RM - to move this article. I oppose the move from the original name, which I consider both better documented and logically more correct.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  20:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ...which you consider better... yet no evidence was provided in the ample time given. Renata (talk) 20:50, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is obvious we need a third party to mediate here. You can select a procedure from WP:DR for that, although I believe WP:RM is simpler and the most adequate.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  21:52, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you consider using WP:RM in the Eldership of Samogitia case?--Lokyz (talk) 22:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please don't move without consensus 

message: Moving this page has created quite a few double redirects - see Special:WhatLinksHere/Polish-Teutonic War (1431-1435). TwoMightyGodsPersuasionNecessity 23:49, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Double redirects

message: I have never heard of it. It is not  mentioned in our FA on Jogaila, neither. IIRC, the Order tried to get him excommunicated, but they never succeeded, and the papacy was actually relatively friendly to Poland (as the Lithuanian rebels were seen as more heretical).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  02:06, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Excommunication of Jogaila

message: I reverted the move of earlier today by User:Renata3and moved Lithuanian Civil War (1431–1435) back to Polish–Teutonic War (1431–1435). The earlier move was made without discussing it here and there is a section Talk:Lithuanian Civil War (1431–1435)#Please don.27t move without consensus on this page making it clear that a move is contentious so do it properly and make a WP:RM if you (User:Renata3) want to move this page. -- PBS (talk) 11:25, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: With whom it should be discussed? Above "discussion"  only shows that party which opposes a move is driven by personal preferences, father then established academic naming. M.K. (talk) 12:30, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Controversial moves should be listed at WP:RM. Do that and if the closing administrator judges that there is a consensus for the requested move, it will be moved, and it will not be moved back without another WP:RM. Discussions about sources etc can be presented during the requested move process. The RM is more than a simple vote count as the WP:AT policy and guidelines will be taken into consideration. But just moving the page without a WP:RM is unacceptable as such a move is controversial. -- PBS (talk) 12:54, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you please tell my how did you concluded that such move is "controversial" ? M.K. (talk) 16:28, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: See the sections above #Please don't move without consensus, #Name and the section immediately following this one. -- PBS (talk) 00:59, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reversal of move 

message: I seem to me that there is no definitive name in English for this conflict. Consideration should be given to renaming the article to "Lithuanian civil war (1431–1435)" and/or not placing the title in bold in the introduction to indicate that it is a descriptive name (see Wikipedia:Lead section#First sentence) -- PBS (talk) 21:53, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it is purely descriptive name. The capitals are there only to keep consistency with Lithuanian Civil War (1381–1384) and Lithuanian Civil War (1389–1392). But these are also descriptive names, so might be a good idea to lower-case them all. Renata (talk) 22:08, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Descriptive name? 

message: Given the removal of Polish–Teutonic War (1431–1435) from the lead, should not the section  Teutonic invasion of Poland have the war placed at the top as main. Also oughtn't the section be indented by  one so it becomes a subsection of the prelude? -- PBS (talk) 06:25, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Link to PL-TE war inserted. I'm not sure if it should be part of the prelude tho since so many of the sources say the civil war started after the death of Vytautas in 1430. Novickas (talk) 21:41, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:   Teutonic invasion of Poland 

message: This article theoretically should describe precisely the civil war in GDL, which began not in 1431, but in 1432 (attempted murder on a Svidrigajlo in Oshmyany). Battles were fought until 1439, though sluggish. The main scientific work on this topic is Powstanie Swidrygiełły by Lewicki (Kraków, 1892). See also some rather new articles by Jaroslaw Nikodem. --Azgar (talk) 14:14, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong chronological boundaries 

message: Confirmed for WP:POLAND. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 00:33, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: B-class

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The hyperlink directs you to a Ukrainian page Mr anonymous username (talk) 17:24, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hyperlink for rus