Talk:Fitna (word)

message: HEY, y has the +ve meaning of this word been removed? This has become a biased article. Fitna means trial, test and can mean sign too as was shown by the camel sign from Quranic verses earlier.
: Edip, you CANNOT use Wikipedia for proselytization. I have reported you as a vandal. Zora 00:01, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing

message: Sorry to ask this touching religious question.  However, doesn't "fitnah of the pen" refer to pornography?  In particular, any ariculation of of this in relation to the way that women dress in Western societies (or, rather, DON'T dress in western societies) and any extracts in the Qu'ran that refer to the social instability and loss of good breeding practices that allowing women to walk around without any clothes results in?  
My basic interest here is in Islamic notions of Eugenics. 
Sorry about 'beating about the bush'.  
AxSingh 09:23, August 12, 2006 (UTC)
:Fitnah of the pen apparently can refer to pornography... I haven't seen it from a 'reliable source' but it makes sense since it would just be art that 'causes problems' or is 'un-Islamic'... I had added a poorly written bit about women causing fitna (by dress, co-mingling) which was removed... it was valid and something I have seen in the shoddy populat literature... but, if I am to re-add it I will have to find some better sources.  So, I think it can mean that... and it makes sense that it would.  Don't cause fitna being used as don't cause problems that help break apart societies... You lost me when it came to breeding practices.  Yes, I suppose if improper breeding leads to societal problems then there could be a connection with eugenics?  Although, I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe there is a widespread belief in eugenics in the sense we normally talk about it.  There has been jurisprudence on when you may sleep with your wife and things like that but I am not sure I know what you're referring to. gren グレン 09:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fitna/Fitnah as a Pornographic Reference 

message: I am in favour of changing the title of this article. There are two articles called Fitna at the moment, one is about an islamic concept and one is about a movie on islam. I think the movie on islam should be mentioned under the header 'fitna in popular culture' and the header of this article should be 'Fitna' instead of 'Fitna (word).Daanschr (talk) 18:07, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps it is better to put the movie under the header 'See also'.Daanschr (talk) 19:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing the title 

message: Hi, I flagged this article as in need of an expert because it only cites secondary sources and only details a few specific meanings of the word fitna. It's a good start, but is definitely in need of expansion and greater attention. The world has a long history in Islamic thought and, as the article mentions, is difficult to translate so it is especially in need of expansion from someone familiar with the wider context of the use of this word--especially someone who can authoritatively cite the sources on Islamic jurisprudence who deal with this word in the context of contemporary debates. For example, Edward Lane (cited here) is a respected predecessor in studies of the Middle East but he is not representative of contemporary or even recent work on the subject. Also, fitna is also used in relation to gender and the role of women, which is how I'm familiar with it. Will try to get to those sources and add them here ASAP, since that's my personal area of expertise. Thanks, guys. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.244.2.156 (talk) 19:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We advocate the use of secondary sources; especially as opposed to our own interpretation of medieval Arabic texts. Lane's work on Egypt may be dated, but this is his dictionary, still a standard work of reference; the recent work on women in Islam has not consensus, where Lane may still have one. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expert 

message: I think something went wrong, when i go to Fitna and click on discussion i move to the talk page about Fitna (word).
:It has been fixed by now, thanks for that. 131.211.141.65 (talk) 12:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong rename? 

message: When you translate a word from Arabic to English you have to use the original meaning of the Arabic word in the Arabic language that reflects how they used the word at that time by the Arabic people and do not use Arabic-English dictionary to understand the meaning using the contemporary English language. 
If I need to understand the original of an English word I use English-English dictionary not English-Arabic. The Arabic language is a very rich language and if you do not speak and understand the original language and use the original Arabic sources you will not get the correct meaning at all.  
The source of this information is any well known Arabic-Arabic dictionary that specialized in explaining the original meaning of the Arabic words and list their various uses in the Arabic language and how the usage of the word has been developed from time to time.
   
1- “Fitnah” is a classic Arabic word means "test" and it does not mean "trial" as most of the non Arabic speakers may use. The word is used in Arabic as a Verb or Noun or Adverb. 2- The Arab used the word to describe the process of testing the purity of the Gold or any other valuable metals. They say "Fatana Al-Zahab" or "Fatana Alhadeed" , which means the test of the Gold and Iron purity by using the fire. 3- The word "Fitnah" is not a bad word. The Arab is using it in their daily life to describe the hardship they have. When Muslim make Duaa they say “ May Allah does not make it (the hardship) Fitnah for us” . 4- The word Fitnah existed in the Arabic language before the revelation of the Quran and not a new complex word as your article is claiming. 5- The Quran used the word Fitnah 50 times in a very clear way. The source of this information is any Arabic books that cover the meaning of the Quran in Arabic language. The one I’m using is called “Tafseer Wa Bayan Mufradat Al-Quran”, with full Index by word. 6- If the word “Fitnah” is a new word the Muslim would ask the Prophet about the meaning of this word. No one asked the Prophet. 7- The Quran Book said " Your money and Sons is Fitnah" . That means your money and sons are tests in your life that you may pass or fail. For example if you steal to support your children extra daily requirements and needs then this is Fitnah and you failed. Also the money is Fitnah if you fail to spend it correctly and help the poor people and use it properly to enjoy your life in a modest way to the benefits of your family, community and country. 8- Any small or big incident in our life can be called Fitnah. 9- The modern Arabic words for Fitnah are "Ikhtebar" and "Imtehan". 10- A simple prove to my notes is that the word “Fitna” should be written as “Fitnah” with “h” to match the Arabic word [ فـتـنـة ] in writing and speaking.
Finally, to accused someone by vandalism without a prove is a poor reflect to the integrity of the original source of the information that cannot raise the discussion to a respected level.
Most of the articles writers about Islam and the Quran in Wikipedia do not speak, write or understand the Arabic language and they use Arabic-English dictionaries , not to mention some of the sources are anti Islam and Muslims. They do not understand the deep meanings of Arabic language as we use it from 1700 years and they are copying from none Arabic and anti Islam sources to explain the Arabic language. This is a major issue and Wikipedia needs to address it seriously .
I wonder if we use a French or German dictionary to explain the same Arabic word we used from over 1700 years in the Arabic language what we will get. --Smkk2008 (talk) 04:01, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As an aside.  While the "original meaning of the Arabic word in the Arabic language" is important, it is also important how English speakers use the word in English.  If the article was limited to merely translating a word from Arabic to English, it would belong in Wiktionary and not at Wikipedia. —  AjaxSmack  02:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The meaning of "Fitnah" in Arabic by Arabic users 

message: Is this really necessary to have this word in the wikipedia?  I do not see how this word has any significance.  Norum 00:07, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Also a good question from a decade ago. Fitna is a less a word of religious significance than a simple common noun. More the stuff of Arabic Wiktionary really. Iskandar323 (talk) 01:25, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Importance 

message: I have completely rewritten the article, including expanding it rather substantially. I wasn't sure if I should just post something here first before making wholesale changes, or just post my changes and see what happens. I'm new, so the etiquette eludes me. I opted for just posting my rewritten version. I'd be happy to hear what others think. Dmvjjvmd (talk) 02:52, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Complete Rewrite 

message: Arabs aren't descendants of Ismael. Jews convinced them they were in order to chase Christians outside Jerusalem. They can't be considered Semitic. There has been some Jews forced to convert to islam at some moments, some other tribes stood Jew and moved, some tribes became Christian. Many were enslaved by the muslim slave market. While Jews wanted to use Arabs to fight Christians, they has been betrayed when Muhamad decided to establish his violent dominion over Arabs and attack both Jews and Christians. This must be clear; Arabs aren't Semitic.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.91.229.108 (talk) 07:59, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  About "semitic" language... 

message: this makes "place of fitna" sound like it might be a common phrase, used as a warning.  What does this mean? 142.163.194.232 (talk) 23:34, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: My my. Well done for pointing out what a broken page this is. The most basic and common meaning of fitna is simply unrest, though this page has other ideas. Iskandar323 (talk) 01:23, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  fitna in the phrase "university will definitely be a place of fitna"