Talk:Races in The Legend of Zelda series/Archive 1

message: Now, I get putting in a reference to the Zora/Rito and Kokiri/Korok things - the game bluntly says that one is a descendent of the other. However, the blatant OR in any Gerudo/Twili rumor, until Nintendo actually puts out something saying that "Gerudo A is the ancestor of Twili B" needs to f'ing stop. It's been removed over and over, and people need to f'ing think.
It's last incarnation also has several things badly wrong with it. First of all, the male dynamic isn't merely a lack of them - there is a process that makes one appear ONLY every 100 years. They can still produce males, it's just that there species doesn't need them. By logic, they never did - in fact, when they appear in other games that have no connection to the Twilight Realm (Majora's Mask, Four Swords Adventures) THERE ARE STILL NO MALES (barring Ganondorf, the "annual" male, of course).
What's also important about the symbol on Zant - it's the same symbol on Onox and Veran, and they both say that they are demons from the Dark World, NOT Gerudo. Given that the symbol is also featured on all of the traps and switches in OoT (presumably, the Gerudo didn't have the ability to get into the Deku Tree and Jabu-Jabu to set all these traps without anyone noticing), it is much more likely that it is a symbol for darkness and evil in the Zelda world, or at the very least, the more sinister aspects. Thus, while it is associated with the Gerudo, it is a more widely used symbol - just like the Hylians and the Triforce.
Plus, that's not the Twili symbol, anyway. It's interesting that Zant has something SIMILAR to the Gerudo mask-emblem, but the Twili symbol is the three concentric circles with the bar seen on the doors and the map.
So, in summary, while it's nice to THEORIZE about such things, and no matter how much the games may HINT at it, it is not appropriate to put it on wikipedia. If there was a blatant statement like in TWW, fine, but there isn't.128.211.254.142 18:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Gerudo/Twili

message: Maybe something should be said about the little wooden dummy-like creatures with the leaves on their faces that are in the sacred grotto? They seem very similar to the koroks, anyone agree?--205.209.66.117 21:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No? Since they're wooden puppets operated by the Skull Kid? And they're official name is Mannequins?128.211.254.142 18:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Koroks in Twilight Princess?

message: Agahnim, from Link to the Past, mentions in your first meeting with him that he is a member of the "Tribe of Evil". Also, In Majora's Mask, the mask is said (by the Happy Mask Salesman, I believe) to be a tool of an ancient tribe who used it for evil. Should these be mentioned in the Twili section, and Agahnim and Majora be added to notable Twili? 4.239.42.33 01:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Previous Zelda game Twili references?

message: Am I the only one annoyed by how the page looks currently? There's a lot of repitition, there's too much difference between the articles, some stuff is completely unnecessary (Gorons don't have to be described per game like "Gorons in The Wind Waker"), the evolution thing shouldn't be in the Zora article, etc. This page need a clean-up which I'm gonna start now. If no one comes with a suggestion of how this page should be/look, I'm going to do things completely my way (what choice do I have apart from not changing the article at all).DreamingLady 19:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the region is called "Hyrule", the race is called as a whole "the Hylia", or in parts "Hylians".KrytenKoro 03:38, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Clean up

message: In what game(s) did they appear? I had never heard of them until now. -Unknown
:Oracle of Seasons Setokaiba✌≝ 12:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They appeared in one of the oracle games, you probably haven't played it user:selmaelbeyati
BTW Subrosia seems a corruption of sub rosa, Latin for “under the rose”, a phrase connotating secrecy. This may be symbolic of the Subrosians secret nature.
Zidel333 04:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Subrosians

message: The article restates thinsg already said in the article multiple times, and often refers to 'the video game ocarine of time' even though we know that's what we're reading about. this was obviously merged from multiple articles, and it's still incredibly redundant and messy. i'm not an authority on these matters, though. i might change some stuff, but id like to know if there's anyone out ehre who feels the same way? Lockeownzj00 19:33, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it is rather a mess, and yes it has been merged from a heap of pages (see Special:Whatlinkshere/The Legend of Zelda series races for the list). Between this and the characters and enemies pages, I haven't had time to do much beyond the merge itself. Feel free to clean it up as much or as little as you can, I really don't have the time to help with that right now. GarrettTalk 23:38, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Messy

message: So, I've started some clean-up on this article.  Still some way to go, but I thought I'd ask about some particularly confusing bits in the Talk in the hope that someone can explain them.
*Dekus: "They can shoot nuts out of their mouths, similarly to how octoroks shoot rocks. Unfortunately, this also means they can't swim without drowning."
...what?  How do these two facts go together? 
::::That they're mouth is not a breathing hole, or some other reason. The one given above actually comes straight from the games, so what are you gonna do? 
*Gerudo: ...in the manga, they appear most as arab harem-style figures, which is more truthful than to call them bird-like."
But then, in the Goron section: "...but the manga are considered non-canonical." So, personally, I think this should go, or have a similar note.
*Gorons: Section: "Gorons and Discworld trolls: Gorons and the trolls of Discworld bear a bit of resemblance. They both eat rocks, and Gorons appear to grow rocks (perhaps better termed boulders in old-age) in their backs so when they die they leave rocky corpse. With as big as some Gorons get mountains could be formed from their corpses much as old trolls become mountains."
...um... so what does this have to do with anything?  This seems to be nothing but speculation from someone who is apparently both a fan of Zelda and Discworld; I think this section should go. That's all for the moment.  What do my fellow Wikipedians think? --Sparky Lurkdragon 00:12, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Starting some cleanup

message: I believe that the deku flower should be relocated to Majora's Mask Article and Oracle of Seasons and Ages articles -Unknown
:Deku Flowers have more to do with the Deku race than those games themselves... --Tryforceful 21:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Deku Flower to Majora's Mask relocation

message: I deleted the following sentence in the Rito section.  "However, they are in fact far off decendants of the Zora, much like the Koroks are to the Kokiri."
Since the same information is already discussed in the spoiler section, this sentence was extraneous.  Also, since this information is also in the spoiler section and is not uncovered until the player is well into WW, I didn't feel that it belonged alongside the general information. Unknown - 22:40, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Simple Deletion 

message: I have renamed the "Deku Scrubs" section to "Deku", as it is a more accomodating name for the race of Deku Scrubs. One would say the "Zora race" or "Goron race", but "Deku Scrub race" does not fit as well. Also, titles from Majora's Mask like "Deku Palace" suggest that Deku Scrubs are only a select species in the broader Deku race.
:--Tryforceful 15:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renamed to "Deku" 

message: I have an odd question that would relate to whether the races moved to a new Hyrule or what:
The Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker maps mesh nicely, and the Minish Cap map slightly fits. The odd thing is that if you tilt the Link to the Past map on its corner, it fits VERY well with the Wind Waker map. For example, the cave where you find the Ice Rod lays over Ice Ring Isle, and the LttP Lost Woods have overgrown Hyrule Castle, while Kakariko Village from OoT has been replaced by Eastern Temple and K Village from LttP has replaced Hyrule Market Town. Death Mountain is Death Mountain, Great Desert is Gerudo Valley, etc. Has anyone else noticed this?74.140.118.84 21:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hyrule map 

message: Shouldn't we list the people of Toaru as a race. I mean, I know Toaru is not the established name of where they live, only tentative, or if if it's even right to call them "Toarunians" for the Gorons aren't called "Death Mountain-ians", but by all means, they are a race. For one, they have circular ears unlike the elf-like ears of must of the other LOZ races, including the Hylians, Sheikah and Rito. They live in seclusion far way from Hyrule, though thats not to say that they don't know of any place or people outside of where they live, seeing as how they attend the annual Hyrule Summit. They are governed by a leader, the mayor. They all eat crops from the same fields, drink the milk from the same cattle like a family even though they are probably not in the same family, though they have the same ancestors. And, like I mentioned before, they live on farming--growing crops and raising livestock--something no other LOZ race has been seen to do. Plus, they have different colored skin (remember the tan-skinned man from the video), a first of any Zelda race.
:I suggest that this is not added to the article yet; at least, not until Twilight Princess is released. Someone is unlikely to be looking for them, yet, and they may just be ordinary humans, such as those it the Great Sea in The Wind Waker. Setokaiba✌≝ 20:19, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Toarunians"

message: Shouldn't this article contain a spoiler warning? I mean, someone who is only half-way through playing Ocarina of Time would not know that Link is a Hylian (and not, as would have been previously assumed, a Kokiri).
: Definately. I'll be adding one right now. --Zooba 12:07, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Edit: I didn't realise there was already one. :/ --Zooba 12:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spoiler Warning? 

message: I knowticed a few of the sectios use the words "you", and sound like something out of a humorous game review, or something like that. Abby724 00:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Words used in article...

message: The last two races on this page are supposedly from an online game called "the Hyrule Adventure", yet I cannot find any information on this. Can anyone provide any information? 68.198.220.163 00:28, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hyrule Adventure?

message: I'm playing through Twilight Princess right now on my Wii, and it seems to me that Ordonian is to Hylian as Floridian is to American. I haven't run into anything in the game yet that makes it appear that Link (and maybe the other inhabitants of Ordon Village)  are a different race. This comment is in references to Races_of_The_Legend_of_Zelda_series#Hylians --24.129.18.76 01:38, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link "Ordonian"? 

message: This article states Zoras "have no visible gills", though in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess it appears the Zora have gills along the sides of their ribcages. This article also states that the Zora appear to be predominantly male, though in Twilight Princess they both appear and sound female (if you try speaking to them after freeing them from the ice, their gasping sounds feminine), all except for the prince. BeefJeaunt 23:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Zora Gills and Gender

message: A MAJOR clean-up is most definately in order. Even the first two paragraphs are cursed with repetition and the like. I'd started a bit of a clean-up, but it really needs to be a group effort in order to be effective. --Zooba 09:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean up 

message: I do not belive it can be stated enough that this must be a GROUP effort. A major clean up is necessary. I belive we should set a start date, and work from there. 
70.242.228.186 04:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A Group effort

message: I believe that the races that were shown only in the various manga should be kept in that article. This article should be set in the proper canon, and unless there is a solid reason these races should stay here, I will be removing them from this article. PlatformerMastah 01:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. --Zooba 12:05, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Races in the manga 

message: One unusual thing about the Gorons in Twilight Princess is that Gorons now seen to be able to survive underwater (though they are still unable to swim due to their larger weight). One possible explanation comes from a comment made by a Goron child practicing holding his breath in the Mountain Hot Spring's shallow waters, that strangely no matter how much time passes, he never feels the need to inhale. This may mean that Gorons do not need to breath in order to survive or more likely they need as much oxygen (this trait may be the result of living at high altitudes, as there is less oxygen; it may also help them survive in lava).
If you look closely at the Goron child it's talking about you'd notice that he is wearing a blue diving suit that appears to be of Zora origin. Making the child's comment foreshadowing on on the Zora Armor and not Goron's ability to breath under water, so I'm going to remove that paragraph. Bobby D. DS. 21:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's a blue mask over Link's mouth, and in any case, the baby Goron having a snorkel still wouldn't explain the Goron METERS UNDER A NON-REJUVANATING SPRING. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.140.118.84 (talk) 08:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gorons in water 

message: They are numerous enough and pervasive enough throughout the series to have a section, aren't they? Entities like the Great Fairies, the Queen of Fairies, Ordonna, Faron, Lanayru, Nayru, Farore, Din, Jabun, Bongo Bongo, the Goddess of Time, Cyclos, Zephos, etc.
Panserbjørn 23:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gods, Spirits and Fairies 

message: "Zora government is monarchial, with King Zora as the only known monarch to date."
This is sort of ambiguous. We know that there have been multiple King Zoras, because a sign in Ocarina of Time that reads,
"Zora's Fountain - Don't disturb Lord Jabu-Jabu!   --King Zora XVI"
Panserbjørn 13:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zora Monarchs? 

message: The new chicken/human race, the Oocca, that predates the Hylians in Twilight Princess is nowhere to be found in this article. I'd put them in myself, but I'm too lazy for that.
I added them, but I don't think it's very good. If anyone wants to change it, please do so. DreamingLady 10:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oocca missing 

message: Last sentence of the Zora section:"Since the figurine of one of the Rito suggest that he is a descendant of the Hylian Running Man."What is that supposed to mean? I'm very confused. —Buddy13 11:59, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Huh? 

message: pretty funny, too. Anyway, I'd fix it myself but I can't work out how to edit that part of the page. Chutup 10:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  spoiler warning vandalized 

message: Grandma Goron from Majora's mask seems to prove that some Gorons are female...??? --205.155.225.1 23:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Goron Gender... 

message: I'm going to go delete areas that have no sourcing and have heavy speculation. If you want to add pieces of what i've deleted back, find sources first. If you have sources, feel free, even obligated, to add the information back in. DurinsBane87 22:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original Research 

message: Except that the Stalfos:
1) don't appear in the woods, and
2) don't look anything like the Skull Mask.
In any case, the fact that they all change at the same time, and only one appears in later games (with relatively great power, especially in illusion), seems to indicate that this is not an actual race. If it's not illusion, then that means he has control over teleportation and obliterating matter - even more impressive.128.211.254.142 18:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Stalfos Head

message: I'm not necessarily disputing it, as it would make sense, but how exactly does Telma resemble a Gerudo?
Red hair, large nose, Gerudo skin color, fierce personality, it's all there. The only thing that goes against this is her ears being pointy, but the new TP Ganondorf also had pointy ears. So, it is safe to say she was at least inspired by the Gerudo, if she isn't one.
TWW Ganondorf already had pointy ears. And the large nose was also already dropped in TWW. Anyway, I think Telma is at least inspired by the Gerudo....but whether she is one? I don't know, she still appears more Hylian to me.DreamingLady 03:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Telma 

message: What, are the three goddesses a race now? The deity section should be removed from this article.Tj terrorible1 16:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since when are Shiekah considered a race? There's been one in the entire series. But you're right, the 50-ish spirits and deities presented in the games are two few in number for them to be considered a race. I guess they must be squirrels or something.128.211.254.142 06:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Since when are deities considered a race?

message: Link's Awakening clearly describes the Animals as a cohesive Tribe, and further games treat them with the same amount of importance as the others. In Twilight Princess, the animals are merely normal animals, but most games present them as something like the once-fish Zoras and so on.
The Dark Tribe, first named in Link to the Past, seems to consist of the sentient monsters: - blins, wizzrobes, and -nuts. The -blins especially have developed as much technology and sentience as most Hylians - they're just evil.
The Fishmen consist of the 49! map-fish in Wind Waker, each of which is said to be a different character, and they all talk to Link. That rivals the total for any other race in one game. If any other race is on here, they should be.
The Monkey Tribe also appears in several games: MM, OoA, and TP. It makes a small appearance in LA, but isn't really cohesive. However, in the other three, they are both cultured and intelligent enough to speak english (barring the TP one - but they still understand enough to help before and during the Forest Temple).
The Ikana would just be the Termina version of Hylians.
The Dead Tribe would be the undead: Stalfos, Redead, Gibdo, Poes, Garos and so on. In MM, they are shown to be sentient, and in TP, the Poes are not deceased Hylians - they are hellish beings. Furthermore, the Poe Keeper from TP and MM seems to not be merely deceased, and is definitely both powerful and sentient.
In Oracle and TMC, members of the dead tribe can talk. In TMC, there are more natural Dead-ers : the two spookters and Gina the Ghini.
I think the first 4 should DEFINITELY be put in. I do not have enough time right now, nor do I have the requisite information (my LA game was borrowed and lost), so I am laying the request on your hands.
The last 2 could be put up, as information exists, but it seems they are both slightly controversial.128.211.254.142 04:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Animal Tribe, Dark Tribe, Fishmen still missing, Ikana,Monkey, and Dead Tribe as well 

message: Should we just make this its own page? We could have it with their shrine, their element, patronized race, so on.128.211.254.142 04:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zelda Deities 

message: Can someone help me? I believe I caused a big mess with the Hylians. I was trying to note that humans and hylians can be interchangable and in many games it's unknown if the human-like race refers to themselves as human or hylian. I wish I knew how to revert but I'm too new to editting Wikipedia. --74.194.118.12 21:59, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The damage I caused needs reverting.. I don't know how to do it

message: Should Sheik be mentioned in the Sheikah section? He did claim to be the last of the surviving Sheikah. Though he did turn out to be Princess Zelda...
:Almost everything he said was a lie, though.74.140.118.84 09:07, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sheikah and Sheik 

message: This page is way too big! Some of these races need moving to their own sub pages! JayKeaton 02:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Twili get their own article? But they only appeared once... Splitting off Hylians or Gorons would make more sense. And in addition, about half the Twili article is original research and should be merged back here. Gurko 11:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page too big! 

message: This is in the article under Oocca: "As implied by Shad in Twilight Princess, the Oocca created the Hylians and once had good relations with the Hylian Royal Family."  If I remember right, the line began with the phrase "It is said that..."  I think this counts as an in-game rumor.  Does this line convey that well? Bucky 19:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be a rumor, except that all the things Shad claimed pretty much ended up being true - those in the know (Impaz, for example) even said that the Oocca gave the dominion rod to the royal family to allow communication:
"Hey! That rod...
Is that the Dominion Rod?
Ahh... Could it really be? Are you the messenger to the heavens?!
Among the legends of my clan, there is a story from the time when the Oocca 
still maintained contact with the royal family.
Yes, it said that a mysterious rod was handed down from the people of the sky, 
and it was called the Dominion Rod...
The rod was only to be carried by the messenger to the heavens when the royal 
family needed to communicate with the Oocca.
From generation to generation, my ancestors have guarded the book that, by 
royal decree, was to be given to the messenger to the heavens."
So at least half of Shad's claim was true, and the Oocca do seem advanced enough to have built a Sky City more advanced (even on the inside) than most anything Hylians could have built. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.211.178.122 (talk) 14:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I ask because past games have always said that Hylians were created directly by the gods, rather than the gods contracting out to one of their creations.  I can see them building the city and giving the Royal Family the rod, because even without hands, their ancestors could've been able to do all that, what with the powers that they had even at the time the game took place; I'm just having issues with the concept of them being able to create from nothing.  Besides, the guy was right about a lot of  things, but he almost seemed to be worshipping the Oocca, which would lead to him assigning powers to them they didn't actually have. Does that sound logical? Bucky 21:39, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I have mental issues, so I'll trust your memory.  Out of curiosity, would this mean that the Oocca sculpted the Hylians from clay, and then Farore blessed them by breathing life into them?  You could maybe talk me into that; I was just thrown by the claim that they created the Hylians, but if they just provided blueprints, I can rationalize that. Bucky 21:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Provided blueprints.  That's my rationalization, and I'm sticking to it. Bucky 07:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oocca 

message: when is it ever said that the deku tree created the kokori?
:It was said by the Kokiri girl next to the pool next to the shop.  She said that he was their guardian spirit, and that he gave life to all Kokiri.  I count it as the same thing as the Oocca in Twilight Princess.  That discusion is in the Oocca section just above this discusion. Bucky 07:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deku Tree 

message: According to the guidelines, the chief reason in-universe style is bad is because it commonly draws invalid inferences - taking one observation, and expanding it to "all instances". Some instances of that in this article would be the "Kokiri always wear green tunics", and "Goron's always use the term "brother" to refer to others."
Ways we could fix this would be "In The Wind Waker and Ocarina of Time, members of the Kokiri Tribe usually wear green tunics." or something to that effect - stating that it was an observation, as opposed to the "all-encompassing" truths that the article claims.
Now, for some things, we don't need to actually admit doubt. If it's NOT an observation - if the games, the official sites, the manuals, or even possibly the official guides (though that's a bit iffy) claim something is always true about a race - for example, what the site says about Gorons, or what the The Minish Cap says in its figurines and game text about the Minish, would be acceptable.
If a figurine in the game said "Gorons are always x", we could put that. However, we also have to remember that anything not presented as incontrovertible truth in the games needs to be admitted as such. If Ganondorf says something, we can say he said it, we can even say that the evidence supports him - but we must admit that it is his opinion, not the Truth, with a capital T.
So basically - anything from the guides or sites needs to be either easily verifiable (ie, a reader could type in the claim on google and quickly find an official source for it), referenced (link provided to the relevant site), noted (excerpt of game text provided at bottom of article, preferably from game script or text dump file - these are easily found at gamefaqs), or admitted to be observations from the games. Anything that you can't notarize should have a "In the Potato of Destiny, Gerudo commonly wore mime costumes." type of wording.
These are some ideas that I think would really help the article, and obviously the job would be too much for any one editor, so I am asking the community to help out. Thanks!KrytenKoro 01:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent suggestions. I'll see what I can do to help. Gurko 09:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ideas for removing the rampant in-universe style of article 

message: I think all of those were actually sourced at one time, thanks to Gurko, but were removed to trim the page. To replace them, just look for an old version of the page, and paste the sourcing.KrytenKoro 18:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Various fact tags 

message: The Garo should be added here, whether under Humanoids or their own race, they should be. Although they only appear in one game as an army of ninja, according to that professor guy in Ikana Town, they are invaders from another nation. If you look at their legs, they are very chicken-like, and their eyes shine entirely blue instead of having pupils. They ARE a race, just like the Gerudo and Gorons and Hylains and Zoras are, not just a few enemies. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 7:28 (Eastern Standard Time); 10 June 2007.
:They are part of the tribe of the dead. I supported putting the dead tribe in, but arguments against it have been posted above.KrytenKoro 23:43, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Garo 

message: There does not need to be a "Humanoid" section. Period. There are pictures and biology sections perfectly capable of communicating to a reader whether a race is humanoid or not. Besides, if there is going to be a "Humanoid" section (which, again, is inane), Gorons technically fall under it. According to the Wikipedia article on humanoids, a humanoid is "usually a fictional humanoid species has the same basic body outline as a human, being bipedal with hands which include fingers and opposable thumbs, but differs in details such as number of digits, coloring, ear form, presence of hair, average height and weight, size of nose, form of skin, "extras" such as horns, plates, claws, tails or multiple appendages, limb structure (such as having digitigrade legs) and taxonomic lineage (being descended from reptiles, fish, rodents, marsupials, or a phylum not evolved on Earth, perhaps, instead of primates)". Gorons satisfy this categorization quite well, not to mention Zoras as well. (Sausagerooster 08:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Except that the "humanoids" in the game are commonly called humans, while Gorons are always separate from "humans". That explanation should be there - I'm pretty sure the human section starts out with it.KrytenKoro 03:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright. Then why does that warrant a special section called "humanoids" rather than "humans"? (Sausagerooster 02:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Because others still like to say that "humans" refers specifically to the non-Hylian Hyrulians (those with regular ears, and such). So, that was the best compromise at the time.KrytenKoro 22:18, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No need for compromise. The section doesn't need to exist. (Sashaphanes 05:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, then we're left without a turn for "regular" humans, and the other races are still very definitively called humans - at the very least, part of the same species, as opposed to the differing species' of the other tribes. Since "human" is the only word used for the base stock, but also the total species name, they're no real way to do it otherwise, without having to add a lengthy paragraph explaining why we decided to confuse the readers.KrytenKoro 13:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Alright, I can understand that. In that case, I feel that the section should be entitled "Humans", under which there should be an tiny introductory bit that simply explains that the word has a twofold meaning in the Zelda games: it can refer either generally to a group of races or more specifically to a single race. That doesn't seem terribly confusing, and given that the word "humanoid" (at least to my recollection) is never used in the games, I think the distinction should be made by simply identifying the dual meaning of "human".  (Sashaphanes 20:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I think I've heard it at least once, but it's not commonly used, so yeah, good idea.KrytenKoro 16:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not believe it should have anything at all. There is enough evidence to show that they are quite clearly different races as opposed to seperate groups of humans. Also, it now says Humans with another section entitled Humans underneath which I find to be rather strange. I can understand having normal humans and Hylians together though. .:Alex:. 20:28, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Humanoid Section?

message: The Zora and Goron sections seem like ver good canditates for splits. They both take up the most room on this page, both have the most subsections and they both make the most and most important appearences as a race in the modern Zelda games. It would also free up a lot of space on the page making it much easier to read and much easier to edit. JayKeaton 19:32, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They're also a lot of OR and overly-long wording - they can be simplified while still being comprehensive.KrytenKoro 20:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Candidates for splits

message: It seems to be pretty solid to me that they actually have a loose monarchy, like fairies in the folktales - A Queen, several matriarchs, and general freedom to do what you want. Also, why were "Biology" and "Society" removed?KrytenKoro 20:35, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hylian Language has been moved to Hyrule. Fairy Government sounds too... vague and slightly OR. I suppose the Queen of Fairies and her role would definately be worth including (as there is definite information on her) but leave it at that. Bomb Flowers in the Items article perhaps? .:Alex:. 20:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For fairies, I do think its made pretty clear that they follow the Shakespear mold - mostly anarchical, but they do have a legitimately powerful monarch. This happens in the cartoon, too. For Bomb Flowers, they seem to be a major part of Goron life - yes, they can be used as items by Link, but they are described as the Goron's major crop.KrytenKoro 23:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recently Removed info that needs somewhere to go (maybe not this page) 

message: Fairies in The Legend of Zelda are very vague creatures, but do make an appearance as important characters, such as Navi, Tatl, Tael and others. It is unknown if the Fairies have established a government or kingdom of their own, as the Great Fairies seem to be superior to other Fairies and different in appearance. In The Wind Waker, there is a Fairy Queen in Mother & Child Isles who looks like a normal sized, color-changing girl holding a doll resembling the other Great Fairies from The Wind Waker. It seems that Fairies live in all parts of Hyrule and Termina and the surrounding lands.
:Hylian Language has been moved to Hyrule. Fairy Government sounds too... vague and slightly OR. I suppose the Queen of Fairies and her role would definately be worth including (as there is definite information on her) but leave it at that. Bomb Flowers in the Items article perhaps? .:Alex:. 20:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For fairies, I do think its made pretty clear that they follow the Shakespear mold - mostly anarchical, but they do have a legitimately powerful monarch. This happens in the cartoon, too. For Bomb Flowers, they seem to be a major part of Goron life - yes, they can be used as items by Link, but they are described as the Goron's major crop.KrytenKoro 23:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fairy Government