Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Murder Madness and Mayhem

message: A group of editors with a lot of wikipedia experience has expressed willingness to help out with this project's goals. They can help with style, copy-editing, and other issues more difficult for new wikipedians to grow into on your path to FA status. Basically, we'll depend largely on you to provide the bulk, sourced content of the articles, and step in when you have questions or when the article needs help with overall style issues. Wrad (talk) 02:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrad, that is so magnificent that I can hardly express my thanks.  We're having another meeting on Tuesday, and hope that we will be up and going then.  Again, this is really perfect.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 10:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help with articles 

message: I've started this as a separate section, but many thanks to Wrad, above, for helping out with my question about book cover images.  I uploaded an image of The President's cover, copying the example he gave, and all seems well.  We should do this for each book featured, ideally finding images of the first editions (Spanish and English).
But we should also get images for the biographical articles.  Reabell uploaded a photo of Asturias from the Nobel site.  As is noted on her talk page, this needs its permissions fixing.  And now I'm looking for an image of Roa Bastos for his page.  There are some nice ones out there.  Here, for instance.  But frankly I find wikipedia's image policies to be a minefield (to be fair, the whole issue of copyright permission is a minefield), so have no idea if we could justify the use of that image.  If so, how?  And if not, how to search for an image that can be used?  Advice from the FA-Team would be much appreciated.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 07:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, it's a minefield. With living persons, your best bet is going to be to find a picture taken by a private individual (not from a news network or major website). Then email that person and ask if they would like to release that picture for wikipedia under the GDFL license. (This has actually worked for me!) Wrad (talk) 17:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

text: This page gives instructions on how to request permission, and where to email any explicit permissions granted.  If the picture is on flickr or a similar site where the permissions can be obvious, it isn't necessary to email the permission back to wikipedia.  Images are tricky (lots of my first uploads were deleted), but don't be discouraged. Karanacs (talk) 17:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

text: This Reader's Digest version is very helpful.  I think with this, I can find a picture of Roa Bastos that should work.  Fingers crossed.  And in fact, he's the only one we're missing.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 01:36, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: Yes, copyright is something of a minefield, and Wikipedia policy even more so. Here's the readers' digest summary (details at WP:Non-free content).
Wikipedia strives to be free reusable content, which means ideally that material on Wikipedia is either in the public domain or freely licensed (using a license such as GFDL which permits free reuse of content). However, if this ideal were applied strictly to all images, then Wikipedia would be one of the dullest encyclopedia's in the world. Hence, there is a compromise: copyrighted and not freely licensed images can be used as long as (1) there is no known free alternative and (2) any use of such an image constitutes "fair use" under US copyright law.
How does this impact WP:MMM? The images concerned are mainly book covers and photos of authors. For book covers, there is no problem: there's no free use alternative, and using them in the article containing critical commentary on the book is well-established fair use. For dead authors, you should be okay: make a good faith effort to find a free image, but if you can't find one, a non-free image can usually be justified as fair use. For living authors, you're mostly in trouble, as Wikipedia, bless it, reckons you could just (!) track down the person in question and take a photo of them. (See Wrad's and Karanacs' comments above for further ideas.)
But that isn't all. If a non-free image is okay, then you need to demonstrate it is okay on the image page. That means three things:
* You need to identify the copyright holder, which is not always easy.
* You need to add a fair-use copyright tag (probably  or ).
* You need to add a fair-use rationale (the easiest way to do this is using ).
Wikipedia articles are copied all over the web: these demonstrations are intended to protect Wikipedia from being sued both by copyright holders, and by those who break copyright by reusing a fair-use image in a non-fair-use way.
I've done this with the photo of Asturias to give the idea: I found the copyright holder, provided some evidence, and added the copyright tag and rationale. There are free content zealots out there, so it could still be deleted: if anyone finds a free use replacement, just replace it!
Final note: only use the image in the article (or articles) mentioned in the rationale. For example, if you use a book cover in an article on the book, don't also use it in the article on the author, unless that separate use can be justified as above! Phew, that's all. Have fun with your images :-) Geometry guy 20:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This Reader's Digest version is very helpful.  I think with this, I can find a picture of Roa Bastos that should work.  Fingers crossed.  And in fact, he's the only one we're missing.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 01:36, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Free and non-free images

message: One problem that I've run into on big projects like this is with citation formats. Is everyone in his project using the same format? Do we have an agreed-upon format to use? Wrad (talk) 23:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, explain!  I should say that today I said to other members of the project (i.e. the class, heh) that for the moment their task was to plan their line of approach and then go out and get information, do research, and go through sources.  We would worry about the technicalities of citation formats later...  and indeed, I said that you guys were the experts here.  ;)  But tell us: is there a particular format you recommend.  It would certainly be good for me (overviewing and trying to help out on each page) if there were consistency across the articles.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 01:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I personally like the style used for the Hamlet article. Wrad (talk) 01:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I should mention that I think that I think that is an excellent plan - work on the content first and worry about the formatting later. The content is the most important part and your class will be able provide us with invaluable assistance in researching these writers and their works. Awadewit | talk 01:47, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I was looking at the Hamlet article and it completely confused me as to citation. There seems to be a notes section which has abbreviated footnotes of in-text citations in order of use, later expanded in another section entitled secondary sources. Is that right? Can I just use http://tools.wikimedia.de/~magnus/makeref.php, at least for now?--Abarratt (talk) 04:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's another cool tool that I didn't know about! Yes, it produces great results, and we can easily split the notes into notes and references later if we want to (I like that format too). For now, as Awadawit says, concentrate on the content (and providing sources!) — we can worry about the formatting later. Geometry guy 09:16, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's exactly what it does. Basically it combines MLA format with things that Wikipedia uses more often. Oh well. Just be sure to cite things as you write the articles and we'll figure it out later. Cool site, by the way. I'll have to use that one. Wrad (talk) 16:39, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: I'm not sure what the policy is for if a page you're working on has information that has no source. For example, someone added "Postmodern Latina writers of the 1980s, such as Ana Castillo and Giannina Braschi challenge the structure of the dictator novel. For example, in Giannina Braschi's mock diary, "The Intimate Diary of Solitude" (published in Empire of Dreams), the narrator of the Latin American Boom is shot by a lonely make-up artist who works at Macy's and despises the commercialization of her solitude." I left a message on their talk page but so far no response. What is the wiki etiquette here? Do I just move it to the talk page with request to provide reference???--Abarratt (talk) 22:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, moving it to the talk page is a polite way to deal with unreferenced material.  Asking at the user talk page is also sensible. You can also just delete it if you're fairly confident it can't be sourced; make sure you put an informative edit summary though. Mike Christie (talk) 23:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the advice! I just moved it to the talk page for now.--Abarratt (talk) 22:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-referenced Work 

message: It was brought up on the FA-Team talk page that some of the articles are getting a lot of good material added but no sources, and I was afraid that the sourcing formats might be confusing enough to make you guys not want to add references (it certainly scared me at first).  There is some discussion above, but here's what I think is a pretty easy method\.
*Generally, if you are going to be citing from books, you want to create a section called References.  Within this section, list your books (alpha by author).  You can format the book references yourself, or use the template .
::  

*To actually cite the books within your article, use a ref tag. Author name, p. pagenumber.   You don't have to include the name=myrefname part, but if you will be citing the same book/page number multiple times, then you only have to define the text once;  All other times just type 
*If you aren't only citing books, then you might want to be different text inside your ref tags.  There are a lot of citation templates to allow you to fill-in-the-blanks to create a good citation.  
*If you want all of your references to be visible to people (and you do!), then create a section called Footnotes or Notes above the References section.  Within this section, type . It will automatically add your footnotes here. 
If you have any questions at all, just ask :)
Karanacs (talk) 16:35, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Quick citation overview

message: If you're deadline is 10 April, people in the project should get as many articles in the  Good article nominations queue as possible. The backlog means reviews can take more than month. To speed things up, you can review other nominated articles and build up a bit of good will. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 23:57, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Or alternatively, leave me a message and I'll review it asap. Much faster than going through GAN and hoped that someone is interested in that article to review it. OhanaUnitedTalk page 16:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably the best compromise is to put it in the queue at GAN, and then a member of the FA-team or a GA reviewer can pick it up, whichever happens first.  OhanaUnited, currently Facundo is waiting for a GA review if you'd like to take it on.  Because of the nature of this project, can I suggest that even if it definitely doesn't meet the GA criteria, you place it on hold rather than failing it?  There are enthusiastic students willing to work on these articles so a review that identifies weaknesses should lead to the article improving quickly.  Mike Christie (talk) 16:40, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've already reviewed Facundo. Awadewit (talk) 17:04, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Deadline 10 April 2008

message: I think The President (novel) is getting very close to being ready for FAC - my guess would be a day or two. If other members of the the FA-Team want to take one last look at it before nomination, that would be appreciated. More eyes, particularly for MOS and copy editing issues, are always appreciated. Our little FAC checklist is here. Kudos to everyone! Awadewit (talk) 17:08, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[The President (novel)]] 

message: I applaud you all for your work on Wikipedia and bringing up the quality of some interesting articles, nice work!  Cirt (talk) 22:12, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Many thanks!  :)  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 23:41, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I second that praise, I hope many of you stay on and help us build up wikipedia, especially since you all are close to being aces at it with your own FA's! :) Judgesurreal777 (talk) 03:06, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I just found out about this through the community notice board, and it looks like you guys have had some fantastic results!  I hope your professor pressures his/her colleagues into exploring more projects like this - as you have likely found out, we need all the help we can get. Joshdboz (talk) 19:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Also just found about this and I'm excited that this "experiment" has been a great success. Every single article is vastly improved and one even reached feature article status and it's not over yet. I'm glad the topics were of educational value and even better, they were outside of the U.S./Europe scope, which helps us counter systematic bias. I really hope other professors and universities read about your encouraging results as your project comes to an end. MahangaTalk 00:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't have a northern hemisphere bias on Wikipedia: there are a ton of Aussies here :-) But, it is true: there is an anglo bias. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 00:44, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there is a bias in the articles - more US and European articles, for example. Awadewit (talk) 01:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, all the articles in this project seem to be connected in some way with Latin America. What about Asia? They have great dictators too. Geometry guy 08:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

text: This course is a Latin American Literature course, with a focus of dictators, maybe that explains the focus?--Mfreud (talk) 18:13, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I was joking of course. Great work! Geometry guy 22:24, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Great work 

message: Yo, just stopping by to remind mad murdering mayhem participants that they have only three more days to bring The Feast of the Goat up to GA standard before the article is failed. Someone may want to poke the students responsible. Best wishes, Skomorokh 19:11, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the reminder.  Pokes will be out shortly!  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 21:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Be gentle! Skomorokh 21:59, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Re: your edit summary. I am one now! :) Wrad (talk) 22:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 00:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Gentle pokes have been made.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 01:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Primary research is the responsibility of the MMM members. WP:FAT members have certainly helped out with copy-editing for other articles.  Perhaps the most useful (though for you, most time-consuming) tack is to indicate the problems in some detail.  You might want to look for instance at Awadewit's work with Mfreud (in particular) on El Señor Presidente, or Mike Christie's on Facundo.  Each article is generating its own style.  I am happy for you to use your own judgement, rather than creating an artificial situation in which you feel unable to intervene at all.  As far as I am concerned, part of the assignment is for students to be able to work with other wikipedia editors such as yourself.  So long as the students are actively engaged (and I see two of them have, today), and you are not simply replacing them.  But I think we are all to some extent working this out as we go along.  I am sure we will reflect on this when we come to a post-mortem, and I'd be pleased to have your input.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 07:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

text: And when I say that I would hope not to construct an artificial situation (though clearly in some ways it is at least unusual for wikipedia), I mean both that you should feel free to intervene if that's what you would normally do, and also that you should feel free the fail the article, if that's what you would normally do at this stage.  I'll come round and have a look shortly, too.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 07:59, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been unexpectedly caught up in meatspace responsibilities, so won't be able to respond to this or look at the article in detail, but given the highly commendable efforts by the responsibe editors (esp. re: characters section, harvard referencing), I am more than happy to extend the "oh hold" period. I'm sorry I don't have time, but can you see to it that any concerns mentioned in the GA review that were not addressed by recent edits are either identified as not being understandable or rejected as unreasonable concerns? If the article writers asked for clarification on, or disputed unaddressed concerns, it would really move things along towards GA. Skomorokh 22:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clock ticking on ''[[The Feast of the Goat]]'' 

message: Shout out to Latin American lit fans. CBC Radio One is doing a four part series (one hour each) on contemporary Mexican writers.
*CBC Radio One: Writers and Co
Note non-Canadians can listen online or vie podcast: see ]
Part 1: Elena Poniatowksa
Part 2: Juan Villoro and Jorge Volpi. Apparently, "Volpi became one of the founders of the "Crack" movement in Mexican literature - an ironic response to the Latin American literary Boom"
Part 3 and 4 TBA
Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 19:14, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for this.  My goodness, Wikipedia has only a redlink for Elena Poniatowksa!  We'll have to fix that one of these days.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 08:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Mexican writers heads-up

message: Is El Señor Presidente really FA article number two thousand? If it is, that's hilarious. So, whose stars are all lined up just so. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 04:04, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: See here Raul654 (talk) 05:35, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We're doing a write-up on the 2000th FACs, and El Señor Presidente will be mentioned. This will be in the Signpost this week. Here's the temporary link until the Signpost is released Wikipedia:FCDW/April 14, 2008. The Signpost is the weekly Wikipedia newspaper. Karanacs (talk) 21:11, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Marvellous!  Many thanks for the heads up.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 21:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  2000 

message: Hi everyone, I'm trying to organize a meetup for Vancouver Wikipedians, and we certainly need your participation! This should be a fun chance for people from all areas of interest and walks of life to get together. A discussion page is here, and please join in: Wikipedia:WikiProject Vancouver/Meetup 2008. Best, Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 07:38, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vancouver meetup 

message: You guys are unstoppable! Rock on! --Moni3 (talk) 16:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: QFT. I can only hope I end up at a university which has such creative thinking professors. =) I for one would not mind having to joint-write an essay/research piece which might somehow affect the real-world for a heavy portion of my grade in English or some other class. --Izno (talk) 05:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

text: A school project which didn't create hours of work for us AND helped to produce FA and GA's, wow, thanks a bunch :) --gren グレン 23:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kudos 

message: It is close, and could make this an all GA project :) Judgesurreal777 (talk) 17:15, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is Miguel Angel Asturias. As one of the FA-Team helpers for this article, I feel I really let the side down. I will re-watchlist it and do my best to help if other editors (and here I mean anyone, not just the group, not just the entire class, but anyone who wants to improve the encyclopedia) can provide content and sources. I believe those in the class have exams now, but please come back to fix this article once those exams are done: it is so close to being a great article, thanks to the fantastic work of the group involved. I am very sad that their fantastic work will not receive as much credit as other class members because the GA hurdle was not crossed. But I ask everyone who has been amazed by Jbmurray's brilliant Wikipedia project to come forward and help this article be as good as it can be. Geometry guy 18:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to third the sentiment. I'd be more than willing to help ~this reach GA, I can even try to find online sources.. Unfortunately as far as printed sources go, my university library sucks and thats an euphemism.. I have a couple of exams/asignments of my own due at the end of the month, so I had to slow down abit these last few days and won't be as active for the next ten days but I intent to return in full speed afterwards Acer (talk) 18:16, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  That article is close enough to be GA so I'm going to review it on tomorrow. Should have results by then. OhanaUnitedTalk page 02:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have watchlisted, and added the article to WP:GAN. Geometry guy 22:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Judging from last GA review, it seems that it was failed mainly due to the article too broad and not focused. Now I think Professor Beasley-Murray is the most appropriate person to judge on this matter as that is his area of expertise. If he thinks that this article is focused enough, then I can cleanup the prose and MoS and then pass it as GA. So I appreciate if professor can comment on this. OhanaUnitedTalk page 03:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  I'll get to this later today.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 17:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Someone should work on that last non-GA!

message: Prof, have you considered the fate of the articles developed under MMM after the project is completed. Articles are usually at their best just after they become an FA and from then they usually degrade slowly. Once MMM is over and you and the students move away, the same may happen to these articles. Cherian Nair (talk) 05:42, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, thanks for the reminder.  We'll be watching the articles, I'm sure.  On the other hand, of course, we don't pretend to own them.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 17:56, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The future

message: Best, Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 05:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Meetup

message: A proposal to add a symbol identifying Good Articles in a similar manner to Featured ones is being discussed: see Wikipedia talk:Good articles#Proposal. Cheers!  Wassupwestcoast (talk) 19:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good article icon 

message: Given that this WikiProject has now run its course, I suggest we place a tag at the head of the project page to indicate it is no longer active, perhaps   or . Other choices can be found at :Category:Wikipedia header templates. Thoughts? I'll leave it to those involved in the project to make the change. Mindmatrix 16:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Historical project

message: An important discussion on " Should WikiProjects get prior approval of other WikiProjects (Descendant or Related or any ) to tag articles that overlaps their scope ?  " is open here . We welcome you to participate and give your valuable opinions. --  TinuCherian     (Wanna Talk?)   - , member of WikiProject Council.  14:36, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  A discussion 

message: The project has now passed the threshold of notability for inclusion as an article in the encyclopaedia. Is it time to write one? Skomorokh 11:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You should do a draft in userspace of what it would look like, and if it looks strong, go for it! Judgesurreal777 (talk) 19:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time for an article? 

message: Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment on the WikiProject X proposal 

message: Hello everyone!
You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!
Note: To receive additional notifications about WikiProject X on this talk page, please add this page to Wikipedia:WikiProject X/Newsletter. Otherwise, this will be the last notification sent about WikiProject X.
Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject X is live!