Talk:The Family International/Archive 4

message: This discussion page was getting to be unreadable and unorganised and, so, I have reformatted the various discussions using standard Wikipedia formatting. I would please ask that everyone sign their posts (place four tildes '~' at the end of your post). If you are going to include multiple paragraphs, please sign each and every paragraph. Try to use "*" instead of ":" for easy formatting. When answering a particular user, please begin the paragraph/post with their name(s) and increment the "*" at the beginning of your post (you might also wish to place their name(s) in bold). Please try to place quotes in boxes (blockquote). Please use bold text sparingly (use italics instead). It is not necessary to begin a post with "By so-and-so"; simply sign your post at the end of the paragraph/post. Try not to break up the flow of discussion-texts by placing your post in-between "conversations"; place it after the "conversation" with an incremented "*" at the beginning. We will have to start archiving more often as we are three times over the suggested kilobyte limit. Thank you! Thorwald 03:41, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion Etiquette 

message: * This is more factual than the replaced paragraph concerning the transition from COG to the Family of Love. --Mindsports 19:11, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: History

message: The pro-COG editors continue to quote J. Gordon Melton, Ph.D. It is interesting to note that the FCF has listed him in their official expenses statement as having received around $10,000 to study their group. That is, the group sponsored this man to study their group and to then write books or essays on them. The evidence of this is easily obtained from the FCF web site (-page 38). Thus, I would suggest that any quotations from him used in this article include a disclaimer. It is difficult to view him as an independent academic writing with a NPOV when he is sponsored by the very group he is investigating. Dr. Melton is also listed as an official "expert" of the COG/TF on the group's official Web Page . For more information on Dr. Melton, please visit . Thorwald
*From EBW: Dr. J. Gordon Melton just also happens to be president of a campy group of vampire fanatics called the Transylvanian Society of Dracula. This is no joke. See the good doctor himself in drag dressed as Dracula: http://www-lib.usc.edu/~melindah/Drac97/elvira.htm. --EBW
**Why does this innocent, though unusual hobby make his academic work less credible?   Dr. David C. Lane about Melton See David C. Lane. Andries 23:16, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: J. Gordon Melton, Ph.D.

message: For the above reasons, I believe the article should be reverted back to its original material. If the pro-COG editors wish to include material, I would suggest that they back up their claims with sources and use the NPOV guidelines. I call upon the other editors of this article to back me up on these points. Thank you! Thorwald 06:10, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Revert Wars Discussion

message: The user 216.70.243.114 continues to remove any information on the FCF in the main article and in this discussion/talk page. This user has deleted sections of posts in this page (about FCF) that were not his or her posts. I find this practice unethical and it should be, if is isn't already, grounds for banning the user. Until this user discusses his or her deletions and gives credible reasons for such actions, I will continue to revert to the original versions. Thorwald 21:56, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletions by 216.70.243.114 

message: I would like to suggest the addition of a section covering the topic of the Mo Letters (i.e. Berg's dreams and visions, counsel, prophecies, lectures, etc.) as well as how they were viewed by The Family's members to be God's Word for today and, in some cases, to hold precedence over Biblical scripture. A section like this has the potential to become far larger than necessary, so I think it would be wise to determine what the focus of this proposed section should be and/or if it should be expounded on further in a separate article.WalkerJ 07:10, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Section on the Mo Letters and GNs 

message: Perhaps it might be appropriate to list, or at least give a number of young people born in the cult who have taken their lives.  We might also consider mentioning characteristics common to many young people who have left, such as depression, drug and alcohol abuse, risky behaviors, working in the sex industry, etc., while of course emphasizing that not ALL former members of the second generation have these problems.  What does everyone think? ThePedanticPrick 21:25, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sweetheart, do you have a source for that information? Without a source it appears to be original research, which is not allowed in Wikipedia. Thanks, -Willmcw 05:02, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
*** I have done some editing on this section to try to make it reflect more accurately the balance of the second generation, which could be roughly divided into those who leave and are angry; those who leave and simply get on with conventional life; and those who remain (or leave and rejoin). I have also inserted a quotation that deal with the actual Family view of those who leave. And the paragraph on apostasy is slightly rewritten. Looking at the cross link, it seems that the accepted view of apostasy is someone who leaves their faith. The majority of world faiths are passed on from generation to generation. You are born in a faith or religion, and then if you leave it, you are technically an apostate. The fact someone did not choose to be born a Muslim, for instance, doesn't mean that they are not an apostate if they convert to Christianity. --Details 18:28, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
*** The changes I made have been removed. It seems whoever edited this has a POV, as the section again states - "The Family International calls those who cooperate with law enforcement investigations into its practices, testify for the other side in court cases involving its members, publicly express negative opinions about the group's practices and those who publically claim to have been sexually or physically abused during their childhood in the group, bitter apostates who are actively fighting against the Family. Some of the second generation of former members resent the apostate label, as most of them never chose to join this group in the first place (they were born into it) and, thus feel they cannot rightly be called apostates."  -- Whoever wrote this, please substantiate this statement from the writings of the Family. This seems to be your opinion but I already cited quotations that indicate this s not the case (in the edits that you removed.)--Details 15:42, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
*Details: The changes I made are accurate, were written from a neutral point of view and based on the publications, statements and actions of the TF/TFI and its spokespersons. The changes I made were also in response to the prior version which stated that only a small minority of former SG members who are actively fighting the Family are labelled as apostates. I thought it would be more objective, NPOV and informative to clearly define what one has to do to be labelled as such. If I had injected my own point of view, the result would have been a critical and harsh assessment of how the Family responds to criticism and allegations of child abuse from former second generation members. The facts are the Family does indeed label those "who cooperate with law enforcement investigations, testify for the other side in court cases involving Family members, publically express negative opinions about the group and those who publically claim to have been sexually or physically abused during their time in the Family" as apostates. Sometimes they use additional qualifying adjectives like bitter or disgruntled and, as those "apostates" who have received threatening letters from spokesperson Claire Borowik can attest, are quite fond of the term, "actively fighting the Family." It does not take much to be labelled as such - simply posting a childhood memory on one of the "apostate" websites is often enough. The actions I listed that result in the apostate labels being applied are only a small subset of all the possible actions that will result in being labelled as an apostate, disgruntled detractor, bitter enemy, etc.  There are plenty of examples of the use of these labels in their publications. For now, here are a few relevant quotes from one publication: 
Pray, Obey and Prepare!
Introduction to the 2002 Study Month
By Maria and Peter       CM 3420 9/02
       6. (Mama:) The battle is certainly becoming more fierce, both in the spiritual realm with the Enemy's attacks intensifying, and with our detractors and apostates becoming more determined to cause as much trouble for the Family as possible and to weaken your faith through their half-truths, exaggerations, lies, and false accusations.
11. In addition to helping us to be the witnesses and fruitful missionaries we need to be, being strong in our foundation of faith is crucial when we experience persecution and hear the accusations of apostates. 
14. If you and those in your Home have made commitments to not read the accusations of our detractors and apostates, and to not go on the ex-member Web sites, Peter and I commend you. That's the best thing to do...But even if you are steering completely clear of the verbal attacks of our apostates, you still need to be prepared for eventual persecution
39. ... It's a dilemma to know how to pray the most effective prayers in situations when you're having to pray against people who were once Family members and who are now detractors or apostates who are out to do us serious damage.
87. To begin with, let's review what the Lord predicted in the CvsC series when He said: “There will be yet more apostates, more detractors with outlandish stories to test and try the hearts of the children of David. Warn the Family, let them know that this is what's happening and why. Those who receive this will be forewarned and will recognize the attacks of the Enemy when they come their way. Those who have been faithful to study and believe and come to Me and receive My seeds will stand” (ML #3361:61-62, GN 957).
       88. Then in “More on the Keys” the Lord said: “There will be more false accusers and their words will test the faith of some” (ML #3351:86, GN 946). So we shouldn't be surprised that we are now seeing a new round of attacks from apostates, and that there are new voices being raised against the Family. The Lord warned us that this would come.
116. Though these apostates think this is their own doing and that they are causing major problems and disruption in your lives and work, they stand before Me as those who are blind with pride and are simply pawns in My hands...
130. It has recently been brought to our attention by some of our faithful media folks that the postings on various ex-member sites are becoming increasingly aggressive and belligerent. There are a number of detractors who are trying to rally those who have left--even those who have been friendly for years--to unite to fight the Family. They're talking about trying to hinder our work through such things as class action lawsuits, requests for law enforcement investigations, personal lawsuits against individuals, criminal complaints, use of the media, production of their stories through documentaries, books, and writings, etc.
    163. (Mama:) The Lord knows we need this information to combat our enemies' attempts to destroy the Family. We need to pray both against the Enemy using our detractors and apostates, as well as misguided officials, sensationalistic reporters, deluded lawyers or publishers, and against the specific evil spirits, the Vandari, that inspire these people's ungodly actions and stories. Use the keys and the key promises to pray against our enemies, and against these vile, disgusting vandals that live in the filthy, putrid sewers of the depths of the netherworld!
Manicmoe 22:07, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Second Generation 

message: It appears the recent paragraph or paragraphs about Richard Rodriguez and his murder/suicide are becoming more of a news column (or story) than an excerpt from an encyclopedic article. I agree that Mr. Rodriguez (and Angela Smith) are intricately tied to the history of this group and that he was the son and "heir" of Karen Zerby and David Berg. This news or information is certainly related to this group. However, is there a way to include him in this article in a more general and historical way without becoming a news article? These are just thoughts. What does everyone else think? Thorwald 22:07, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Richard Rodriguez / Davidito 

message: Thorwald why do you keep del these names? I think they are relevant, esp Philip Sherwood/James Penn. He has written things linked from this page, why can't his name stay? Audiofree
* Because this section is intended for current and former leaders. Not everyone and anyone who was a member. I don't see how these names are relevant. There are thousands of former members and, it appears, many of them have written stuff about this group. What does everyone else think? Thorwald 06:39, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable former members 

message: Andries: Why do you find the interwiki language material on NRMs "erroneous" with respect to the Children of God? I happen to speak German (fluently) and the following is certainly related (and one doesn't need to understand German to understand this): Kinder Gottes (oder "Children of God"/"The Family"),... (from one of the links you removed). —Thorwald 03:48, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I only removed the erroneous links to the other languages that referred to the general coresponding articles on NRMs. Oh, and I just started the German article :de:Kinder Gottes. Could you please check and expand? I did not remove any external link. Andries 19:46, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Andries: Sure. I will look over the German article and add some stuff. In fact, I could just translate the English version. I will only do this when I have some free time (and am very board ;) Thorwald 20:07, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: New Religious Movement (NRM)

message: ***   The language and concepts in these publications may be easily compared to medieval mysticism, as explored by some of the visionaries such as Mechthild of Magdeburg (c. 1210-1280). According to the Handbook of Christian mysticism (Michael Cox, the Aquarian press), Mechthild's visions were "influenced by the language and imagery of the liturgy and religious art and also by the secular poetry of courtly love, which occasional coats her ecstasies with a kind of elevated eroticism; she speaks, for instance, of being taken into the divine arms of Christ, and being kissed by Him, and of enduring His absence. She in turn is complemented; she is God's desire a cooling presence to His breast, a caress to His mouth." (page 86-87) 
***   The erotic imagery of the Song of Solomon, the analogy of the bride, is also remarked upon by the British preacher of the 19th century, C.H. Spurgeon, who spoke on this subject on various occasions. In one of his sermons at the Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit in the year 1874 (Volume X.X. page 487), he writes: "I am so glad that Jesus loves me. Oh for a blessed grip with both hands on such a Christ as this! Observe well that he is ours as our Beloved, so that he is ours as whatever our love makes of him. ... We are his because he bought us with his blood, his because he called us by his grace, his because he is married to us, and we are his spouse." And so forth. 
***   The edits I made took into account this and other similar historical material, commentaries on bridal theology and so on. Rather than being remarkably unusual, the teachings in "Loving Jesus" appear as a development of existing thoughts, in contemporary language. This comparative aspect of Family teachings would be worthwhile to explore further. --Details 22:03, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
**** I have changed this to "of-age" followers and deleted the reference to children. In one of the original letters on this subject that was written by way of explanation to 14-15 year olds, Karen Zerby writes "As you read these GNs, you'll want to remember that this new way of loving the Lord is a private matter. It's not for public meetings or groups.  Also, it's not for children, so please be very careful and prayerful that you don't discuss the details of this revelation with the JETTs or children" (3029jnr:32.) Thorwald has commented that he regards 14 year olds as children. My dictionary defines a child as "a young human being: a young human being between birth and puberty" or "somebody not yet of age: somebody under a legally specified age who is considered not to be legally responsible for his or her actions." In looking at these definitions 14 year olds are certainly over the age of puberty and also in many countries at or over the legal age of consent. For instance the legal age of consent in Italy, Portugal, and Germany is 14, and in Spain it is 13. In some countries it is admittedly a little older but then in others it is younger. These are leading nations in Europe and it seem they don't regard 14 year olds as being too young for sexual experiences either. Therefore it would seem that to be objective and NPOV the "including children" has to go.--Cognomen2 17:24, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent teachings 

message: *I have removed the link to the video of Ricky Rodriguez. A video depicting a disturbed young man, describing in graphic detail the murder he is about to commit, speaking in profanities, is not the type of content one expects in an encyclopedia. --Details 08:18, May 17, 2005 (UTC)
**Sorry. Not a good enough reason. Sounds more like suppression of information to me. I am returning the link. If you don't want to watch it (just like the television), turn it off! Thorwald 17:26, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other 

message: Whether or not having a sexual relationship with one's deity is mainstream or not is immaterial to the purpose of this article. Mainstream means different things to different people; let's please just state the facts, not opinions. I think long descriptions of historical, er, Jesus-loving is un-called-for.  A brief description of it as the Family practices it, along with some links to pages which provide the historical context is fine. Otherwise, this article becomes conflated and unreadable. ThePedanticPrick 18:57, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thorwald, we should not write that most or some people consider this belief bizarre. We should state facts (i.e. describe notable aspects or their beliefs and practices) and not spoonfeed the reader with opinions and conclusions about the group. This is not a magazine article but an encyclopedia. Andries 18:54, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Andries: I couldn't agree more with you. Believe me, that is exactly what I want for this article. I maintain that it is a bizarre belief, but that is only my POV and my POV does not belong in this article (I can, however, use it in this discussion). Thorwald 20:12, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Is this really so unusual?

message: Does the COG really consider itself to be a fundamentalist Christian denomination? Does it adhere to the "five pillars":
*Inerrancy of the Scriptures
*The virgin birth (or deity) of Jesus
*The doctrine of substitutionary atonement through God's grace and human faith
*The bodily resurrection of Jesus
*The miracles (or, alternatively, the second coming) of Jesus Christ 
The COG does not strike me as a conventional fundamentalist group. -Willmcw 07:14, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
*Willmcw: The Family International's "Statement of Faith" can be found here.  I think you will find that we do adhere to each of the five pillars. Dr. J Gordon Melton places us in the broader Fundamentalist movement and traces our roots to Fundamentalism in his book The Children of God--The Family published by Signature Books. So although I personally wouldn't say we are conventional fundamentalists, if adhering to the five pillars places us wihtin Fundamentalism then we are. If you are looking for info on our beliefs, even the more unusual ones that have been treated so cavalierly by some in this article, you can find it here.  Hope this is a help.--Cognomen2 19:04, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, that clarifies it. -Willmcw 05:05, May 21, 2005 (UTC)
** I have added some more information about the Family's beliefs, above the section "Recent Teachings", as it seems odd to only discuss recent teachings without looking at the basic theology of a religious movement. --Details 22:14, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
** The section I added has been deleted. Why? The section I added was a neutral, third party assessment of the basic beliefs of this religious movement. If it was too lengthy or there was another problem with it, please could whoever removed it explain the reasons why? --Details 15:33, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
*Details: I explained the reasons why I removed the Teachings section in the Teachings and Practices section above. I did not see your post here or I would have responded here as well. For your benefit, I will explain my reasons again. 1. You put the Teachings section in the 1994-present section which is not the right place unless you only want to cover Recent teachings and there is already a section for that called Recent teachings in the 1994-present section. There is a good and obvious reason why a section titled Recent teachings only examines recent teachings rather than examining the basic theology of a religious meovement. 2. If such a section is needed and it is put in the apropriate place, it needs to have more content that briely summarizes the Family's teachings and theology and not just long quotes which some have agreed are poor style. Two very long quotes are not very useful or helpful to readers. It would be better to write something that summarizes the theology of the Family. It's fine to cite your sources and even use brief quotes make a point but there needs to be more content than these very long quotes. Manicmoe 23:00, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fundamentalist?