Talk:World Council of Churches/Archive 1

message: I changed the WCC article to add reference to some of the major programmes that the WCC has undertaken.
I also changed the list of member denominations to more accurately reflect their origin. Namely: the Baptist and Methodist churches do not date to the Protestant Reformation (16th century). I also updated the number of WCC member churches to 342. This will change from year to year.
--Njesson 23:04, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

message: I am a Coptic Orthodox, but never heard of "Christian Coptic Orthodox Church of Egypt". I am not sure this is a different church from Coptic Orthodox Church.  (Mike Morgan (talk) 21:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Church? 

message: This article does not mention the antagonism that many the evangelical churches hold toward this organization. The organization, "World Evangelical Fellowship," though composed of groups predating even the WCC's predecessors, was formed to be against this organization. The article does not mention the political workings of the WCC. It is accused of Marxism.
: Feel free to enhance it.  A-giau 23:11, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Rational discussion of the weaknesses/errors (and strenghths) of the WCC is appropriate. An encylopedia is supposed to be a reference not a rant. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is important - feel free to edit with this in mind. Paul foord 20:13, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too bland 

message: *Is the point that the WCC is still supporting liberation movements, "Programme to Combat Racism" no longer operates in the manner that it did when it funded ANC, SWAPO and ZANU. Is there an argument that apartheid should not have been opposed? 
:You are missing the point altogether. The criticism is that they as a supposedly nonpartisan group have funded violent revolutionary organizations when other religious groups like the Salvation Army, were doing non violent work in the country trying to foster change without appeal to violence.
:For example, The PCR program contributed $85,000 to the Patriotic Front, a Marxist guerilla organization fighting to overthrow the white regime of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe). This was months after it shot down an airliner that resulted in the death of dozens of civilians. 
:Since its inception, the PCR has given over $5 million to more than 130 organizations, most outside the organized Church. In 1970 alone, the PCR contributed to 14 groups known to be involved in terrorist guerilla activities, with some who were also known to be Communist in ideology and receiving arms from the Soviet Union (Reader’s Digest, October 1971).
:Guy Montag 23:56, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Given that there is some contention, need better citation of sources

message: Paul foord 10:42, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: delete reference Paul foord 09:24, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Cuba]] no citation provided

message: see Tom Malinowski, Washington advocacy director for Human Rights Watch in May 3 Washington Post: "Since January Bush and Rice have met with leaders from NATO and U.N. Security Council member countries 29 times, and they have mentioned Darfur publicly only once." 
Repeating Clinton's Mistakes: U.S. Response to the Crisis in Darfur
By Tom Malinowski, Washington Advocacy Director
Published in The Washington Post Paul foord 12:17, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Darfur 

message: If you wish to make a point gather better evidence - put information in the correct place so it can be peer reviewed. Put airline incident under ZANU-PF (or ZAPU as appropriate), and reference from here. Look up background to controversy from perspective of Salvation Army, who withdrew from WCC over incident. Note: Jerusalem Post article is not accessible. Your gripe appears to be with Programme to Combat Racism, this is one aspect of WCC work, it does not define the WCC. 
Paul foord 09:24, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: This is supposed to be an encyclopedia

message: The reason for my edits - attempting NPOV - balance. Am happy to have different perspectives. You seem to think reinserting material citing biased sources justifies your position. Sorry if you can't se I have attempted dialogue. Happy for mediation if thats what you mean. Paul foord 12:17, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Have tried to put the context and sources of citations more clearly. Not sure about using sources requiering registration Jerusalem Post Paul foord 10:35, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response to Guy Montag 

message: I think it would enhance the article if anyone who is knowledgable about these things could add to the information about who isn't in the WCC and why. Specifically I'm wondering about groups like Mormons. Have they tried to get in? If so, what was the 'litmus test' that kept them out? Zach (wv) (t) 02:10, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who's in, who's out 

message: What reputable sources are there for this:
:During the 1960's, the then-Soviet Union identified members of the WCC as useful fellow travellers.  Soviet intelligence cultivated contacts among the highest levels of the WCC's leadership, thoroughly penetrating the organization.  Also, beginning in the mid-1960's, the WCC accepted direct payments of hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Soviet government intended to support its propoaganda efforts opposing U.S. foreign policy.  The group was also used by Soviet intelligence as a funnel for financial contributions to armed communist struggles.  These contacts and payments continued until the fall of the Soviet Union, and many senior members of the WCC remain intractibly anti-American and committed Marxists.  
This seems particularly POV 
:and many senior members of the WCC remain intractibly anti-American and committed Marxists.  
Paul foord 14:01, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  need souces - "Collaboration With and Funding By the Soviet Union" 

message: I removed a statement to the effect that the WCC has ignored the situation in Darfur.  There are a number of statemen a statement at least as early as 2004.  I've also removed a phrase from the introduction that seemed to be based on the same matter.  The whole section on anti-semitism, where this was located, really needs some attention.  Rafaelgr 02:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Zeq has re-added a lot of what you took out, saying it is sourced (from a non-English site).  However, these two lines are far too vague: The council has been described by some as taking antisemitic positions, principally in connection with its criticisms of Israeli policy. The council has a focused set of activities and publication on criticizing Israel.  The described by some mentioned need to be specified, as this is a weasel word and it needs to be mentioned who is saying that they have focused on a set of activities criticizing Israel. Since Zeq claims it is sourced, he needs to be more clear in the wording. --MattWright (talk) 05:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The WCC has accused Israel in many things. It is very active here. The WCC has received an answer by Amnon Rubinstein which is quoted in the article. No "weasle". Zeq 05:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: "Accusing Israel in many things" and "taking antisemitic positions" are too very different things. If it is "very active" in this area, there should be more references than a single one in Hebrew. Find them and clarify "some" by stating which groups or persons feel this way. --MattWright (talk) 15:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing wrong in a source in Hebrew. Zeq 20:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: False statement on Darfur

message: Your edits didn't even contain good grammar (it should be: the activities have caused controversy and council's funding)...  Furthermore, the lead in does stand on its own and accurately describes the issues that have led to controversy.  Please provide a reference to something that states they have given more focus to anti-Israel activities than all other world-wide humanitarian crisis. Also specify what activities you are talking about if it is more than criticism of Israeli policy. Please be more specific. In reference to your edit at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=World_Council_of_Churches&diff=67690362&oldid=67654398. --MattWright (talk) 20:57, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. fixed the english and NPOV the lead. Zeq 21:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you provide a reference for The church has been crtisized for it's focus on anti-Israel activities while not giving other world-wide humanitarian crisis such strong emphasis as it gives to Israel. Thanks. --MattWright (talk) 21:40, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is in the text of the article itself. The source for it is here:  Zeq 21:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you translate the appropriate section where this is found? I can't read Hebrew. I'm not challenging the source, but would like to have an English translation of the appropriate question and answer. Thanks. --MattWright (talk) 21:57, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

text: First off, thank you very much for translating the relevant sections of the article for me. While I am fine including this in the article, I don't think your text The church has been crtisized for it's focus on anti-Israel activities while not giving other world-wide humanitarian crisis such strong emphasis as it gives to Israel. deserves to be placed in the introduction. The controversy is mainly due to the fact that the WCC has criticized Israeli policy -- which should be summarized in the intro (as it was) and then this specific accusation (by one person) can be detailed in the relevant section. In these quoted statements I don't see any reference to actions other than criticism of policy to back up your text of "anti-Israel activities."  Also, from what I can tell from the source, it appears the interview was in late May, 2006.  As noted above, the WCC has issued statements on Darfur as far back as 2004  and even Iran prior to this interview  calling on them to recognize Israel and adding concern about their hateful rhetoric against Israel and Jews. So while Rubenstein may have accused them of ignoring all other issues, it is not fact. --MattWright (talk) 23:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This 'one person' (an ex-minister and head of an academic institution) expressed the views of many others. It is an important view point that should be described in the Lead. Zeq 03:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks cool. Zeq 18:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zeq intro... 

message: I agree that this article is biased. 
It needs neutral sources to back up the claims esp regarding controversy. 
"Many churches have opted to stay out of the WCC, accusing it of being dominated by liberals and (or) leftists." ... surely such a statement must be backed up by sources. The author needs to quantify ‘many’ 100, 10, 2?? 
And what are the issues around a large ‘dominant liberal’ membership? What are the concerns of the ‘many’ churches regarding the apparent ’liberal’ or ‘leftist agenda’ of the organisation?
I conceded with Guy’s comments. 
Sproutingflower 17:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Many churches 

message: I notice that the main url for the WCC website has changed from  www.wcc-coe.org  to  www.oikoumene.org . This means that many of the url's now need updating by an expert who knows his/her way round the WCC website. Fortunately there is automatic redirection for many url's at the moment, but how long will this last?   217.41.240.15 15:24, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  URL's Need Updating By Expert 

message: Why does it say "WCC's Faith and Order Commission has been successful in working toward consensus ... on the date of Easter" when the main proposal for unifying the dates of Eastern Orothodox easter and Western easter (based on the relationship between the moon and the vernal equinox at the longitude of Jerusalem) seems to have gone nowhere? AnonMoos 06:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Success in unifying the date of Easter?

message: "In a Time Magazine article entitled "Going Beyond Charity: Should Christian cash be given to terrorists?” (October 2, 1978)."
It's a prepositional phrase... AnonMoos 06:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: This is not a sentence:

message: The given list has 328 entries, but the oikoumene's list shows only 157 marked with asterisk (to indicate they are members of the WCC). Therefore I placed unreferenced and dubious tags.
Here is the list of 157 members from the WCC website:
 African Methodist Episcopal Church*
 Altkatholische Kirche Österreichs*
 American Baptist Churches in the USA*
 Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia*
 Anglican Church of Australia*
 Anglican Church of Canada*
 Anglican Church of Kenya*
 Anglican Church of Korea*
 Anglican Church of Tanzania*
 Anglican Communion in Japan*
 Armenian Apostolic Church (Cilicia)*
 Armenian Apostolic Church (Etchmiadzin)*
 Associated Churches of Christ in New Zealand*
 Baptist Union of Denmark*
 Baptist Union of Great Britain*
 Baptist Union of Hungary*
 Canadian Yearly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends*
 Chiesa Evangelica Valdese*
 Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in the USA*
 Christian Coptic Orthodox Church of Egypt*
 Christian Methodist Episcopal Church*
 Christkatholische Kirche der Schweiz*
 Church in Wales*
 Church of Bangladesh*
 Church of Ceylon*
 Church of Christ in Madagascar*
 Church of Christ in Thailand*
 Church of Cyprus*
 Church of England*
 Church of Greece*
 Church of Ireland*
 Church of North India*
 Church of Norway*
 Church of Scotland*
 Church of South India*
 Church of Sweden*
 Church of the Brethren*
 Church of the Province of Southern Africa*
 Church of the Province of the Indian Ocean*
 Church of the Province of Uganda*
 Communion of Baptist Churches in Bangladesh*
 Coptic Orthodox Church*
 Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople*
 Eglise de la Confession d'Augsbourg, d'Alsace et de Lorraine*
 Eglise du Christ au Congo*
 Eglise Harriste [Côte d'Ivoire]*
 Eglise protestante unie de Belgique*
 Eglise réformée de France*
 Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East*
 Episcopal Church in the Philippines*
 Episcopal Church of Rwanda*
 Episcopal Church [USA]*
 Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church*
 Ethiopian Evangelical Church (Mekane Yesus)*
 Evangelical Church of Cameroon*
 Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Poland*
 Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in the Slovak Republic*
 Evangelical Church of the Lutheran Confession in Brazil*
 Evangelical Lutheran Church in America*
 Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada*
 Evangelical Lutheran Church in Congo*
 Evangelical Lutheran Church in Denmark*
 Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania*
 Evangelical Lutheran Church in the Kingdom of the Netherlands [Samen op Weg-kerken] is now part of the Protestant Church in the Netherlands*
 Evangelical Lutheran Church in the Republic of Namibia*
 Evangelical Lutheran Church in Zimbabwe*
 Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland*
 Evangelical Lutheran Church of Iceland*
 Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia*
 Evangelical Methodist Church in the Philippines*
 Evangelische Kirche A.B. u. H.B in Österreich*
 Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland (EKD)*
 Féderation des Eglises protestantes de la Suisse*
 Federation of Protestant Churches in Italy (FCEI)*
 Free Wesleyan Church of Tonga*
 Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America*
 Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and All Africa*
 Iglesia Anglicana de Cono Sur de América*
 Iglesia Christiana Biblica*
 Iglesia Evangélica del Río de la Plata*
 Iglesia Evangélica Española*
 Iglesia Evangélica Luterana en Chile*
 Iglesia Evangélica Luterana Unida*
 Iglesia Evangélica Luterana Unida*
 Iglesia Evangélica Metodista Argentina*
 Iglesia Evangélica Metodista en el Uruguay*
 Iglesia Evangélica Luterana Boliviana*
 Iglesia Metodista de Chile*
 Iglesia Metodista del Peru*
 Iglesia Presbiteriana-Reformada en Cuba*
 Igreja Episcopal Anglicana do Brasil*
 Igreja Evangélica Presbiteriana de Portugal*
 Indonesian Christian Church (GKI)*
 International Council of Community Churches*
 International Evangelical Curch*
 Jamaica Baptist Church*
 Katholisches Bistum der Alt-Katholiken in Deutschland*
 Korean Christian Church in Japan*
 Lusitanian Church of Portugal*
 Lutheran Church in Hungary*
 Malagasy Lutheran Church [Madagascar]*
 Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church*
 Mar Thoma Syrian Church of Malabar*
 Mennonite Church in Germany*
 Mennonite Church in the Netherlands*
 Methodist Church in Ireland*
 Methodist Church in Zimbabwe*
 Methodist Church Nigeria*
 Methodist Church of Great Britain*
 Methodist Church of New Zealand*
 Methodist Church of Sri Lanka*
 Mission Covenant Church of Sweden*
 Moravian Church in America [Northern and Southern Provinces]*
 Myanmar Baptist Convention*
 Netherlands Reformed Church [Samen op Weg-kerken]* is now part of the Protestant Church in the Netherlands*
 Old Catholic Mariavite Church in Poland*
 Orthodox Autocephalus Church of Albania*
 Orthodox Church in America*
 Orthodox Church in Finland*
 Orthodox Church in Japan*
 Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia*
 Oud-Katholieke Kerk van Nederland*
 Polish National Catholic Church in America*
 Presbyterian Church (USA)*
 Presbyterian Church in Canada*
 Presbyterian Church in Taiwan*
 Presbyterian Church in the Republic of Korea*
 Presbyterian Church of Aotearoa New Zealand*
 Presbyterian Church of Ghana*
 Presbyterian Church of Korea*
 Protestant Christian Batak Church (Huria Kristen Batak Protestan-HKBP)*
 Protestant Church in the Netherlands*
 Reformed Church in America*
 Reformed Church in Hungary*
 Reformed Church in Romania, Cluj*
 Reformed Church in Romania, Oradea*
 Reformed Church in Zambia*
 Reformed Churches in the Netherlands [Samen op Weg-kerken] is now part of the Protestant Church in the Netherlands*
 Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)*
 Remonstrant Brotherhood of the Netherlands*
 Romanian Orthodox Church*
 Russian Orthodox Church*
 Sínodo Luterano Salvadoreño*
 Schweizerischer Evangelischer Kirchenbund*
 Serbian Orthodox Church*
 Silesian Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in the Czech Republic*
 Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East*
 The Church of the Lord (Aladura) Worldwide*
 United Church of Canada*
 United Church of Christ in Zimbabwe*
 United Church of Christ*
 United Congregational Church of Southern Africa*
 United Evangelical Lutheran Churches of India*
 United Methodist Church*
 United Reformed Church [United Kingdom]*
 Uniting Church in Australia*
 Waldensian Church*
-84user (talk) 22:49, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of members 

message: I tagged the article with  because I noticed a lot of the citations point to the World Council of Churches.
In particular, the numbers given for their membership come from more than one WCC webpage, and I found inconsistencies between them. I am guessing this is because the WCC webpages are not getting updating as numbers change, but I also saw several churches listed more than once which made it difficult to determine a number I could verify and cite. I found exactly 352 "churches" listed, which reduced to 344 after removing duplicates. Of those, 157 were marked as members. This contrasts with WCC's claim of a fellowship of 349; maybe they do not list them all, or maybe some churches have sub-divisions. I could not fathom it.
Finally, the 328 names listed in the "Members" section of this article does not match the list of 344 I extracted from the WCC. For example, for Africa WCC lists only the African Methodist Episcopal Church, while the wikipedia list shows six. Conversely the WCC lists member churches that are missing from the wikipedia list, for example "Canadian Yearly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends". Therefore I placed an unreferenced tag and an update tag in case anyone knows where that list came from. -84user (talk) 17:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Secondary sources needed 

message: It seems that Ecumenical News International is closely related to the WCC, and may be deserving of a stub article if better documentation were found  ADM (talk) 17:07, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Ecumenical News International