Talk:Fahrenheit 451/Archive 1

message: Wouldn't it make sense to merge the plot and summary section together as they both say the samething?  Bancroftian 06:06, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Merged, saving as much of both as I could. Alf melmac 09:19, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger?

message: The movie seems be incorporated here rather than having a separate entry, which it deserves.
I agree, I am going to make a separate entry for the movie, as it is a separate entitity from the book.Ionesco 21:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Movie 

message: Fsiler, let me make this clear to you, the reason why the robots are even mentioned at all in this article is intregal to the reason why there is section on futuristic predictions of the book.  Moreover, the fact that you left the "military applications" part in tact implies one of three possible motivations for the edit on your part:
*misguided understanding of the subject
*a pathetic attempt to censor information (ironic)
*simple vandalism for antagonistic purposes
Regardless of your reasons, I would advise you to more carefully consider the implications of your actions the next time time you intend to edit the page... or any other. Sweetfreek 19:39, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Law Enforcement Robots 

message: The out-edited German material is translated below.  Some-one else can do the comparison suggested. Kdammers 01:23, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  German translated 

message: What other countries have attacked the US since Pearl Harbor? I removed the remark but the removal was reverted. Gerrit CUTEDH 09:04, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  attacked by other countries 

message: In the beginning of the Plot section, it says, "The story takes place in the mid 21st century," yet under Accuracy as a vision of the future it starts, "Several aspects of the fictional 24th century future..."
Googling Fahrenheit 451 "21st century" and Fahrenheit 451 "24th century" give comparable results. Which is it? StradivariusTV 01:04, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  21st century or 24th century? 

message: As it now stands, the Wiki article says that government endorsement of high-speed vehiclular traffic on highways has NOT come about.  I think this should be removed.  Here is a URl giving speed limits in the U.S.:  http://www.iihs.org/laws/state_laws/speed_limit_laws.html.
Kdammers 02:40, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Predictions 

message: I think it would appropriate to list the langs. into which its been translated - or at least given an indication of the number of languages.
For starters: Spanish ( )
Russian 
Czech (2001 by with Jarmila Emmerová  & Josef Škvorecký) 
German
07:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  translations 

message: The novel is set in an unspecified city in America, not England. Evidence: 
:1. The firemen's rule book contains brief histories of the Firemen of America
:2. "they say there's lots of old Harvard degrees on the tracks between here and Los Angeles"
:3. Faber tells Montag that he is leaving on a bus for St. Louis
:4. Montag used to live in Chicago, where he met Mildred.
— Walloon 06:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Setting

message: The section on the novel's accuracy at foretelling the future is pretty lame and should be removed unless someone has a burning need to justify the disappearence of front porches. Isopropyl 23:17, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree.  Bradbury never intended for Fahrenheit 451 to predict the future.  That notion totally misses the message of the book. -- uberpenguin @ 2006-07-31 19:37Z
Regarding the porches: what is the basis for this? Is there any statistic showing that "front porches" are less common now than in the 50's? By the 50's, I mean the actual 1950's, not television's depiction of it. I'm taking it out. If someone can find support then they can put it back in.
I just took the whole section out. It was mostly unreferenced opinion, at best, and at worst original research that had no real connection to the book. Isopropyl 17:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accuracy as... 

message: you have at the end that people put intire books to memory but that is  only in the movie, at the end of the book granger says about how people have bits of books, and says that there is enven a town were every one is a part of the same book so that the town is the book Shinigami Josh 11:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: books

message: Maybe add somthing in about how tihs book is about banned books, and it IS a banned book, or that censorship thing that happened... idk, some dude tryed to censor the bad words out. somtihng...DEG (talk) 15:13, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irony? 

message: *GuywireMontag  [sic] is  the protagonist and fireman (look above) whose metamorphosis is shown in the  course of the book  and which shows (allegorizes to) him the dystopia through the eyes of a loyal worker.{Sorry, I don’t follow the grammar here}, a man in conflict over him and a man above him, in order to be free from him. 
* Faber is a former English professor who represents those who know that what is being done is wrong, but is too fearful to act against it. 
* Mildred Montag is  Montag’s wife.  She tries to avoid questioning her own emptiness and fear of her condition/situation or to use drugs to hide from the meaningless twittering, and a constant “splash” of the t.v.  She constantly attempts to attain a glorified state of happiness but is internally miserable.  She is symbolically the contra-point for Clarisse McClellan. 
* Clarisse doesn’t show McClellan every characteristic that Mildred has {There seems to be some garbling in the original; as it stands, I don’t follow it, esp. since Clarisse is McClellan}. She is outgoing, naturally friendly, and intuitive.  She serves him, during his “call” {during calls?} to awaken Montag by asking him “why.” She is not popular with her peers and rejected by her parents for asking why and for being interested in Nature instead of technology.   Montag always sees her as odd {orig.:  mathematically odd!}, but upon her being killed by a speeding car he misses her greatly. 
* Capitanist [sic] Beatty, Montag’s boss and the fire [department] leader.  He tries to lure Guywire back into the burning business of the book {I guess:  back into the business of burning books} but is burned alive by Montag when he underestimates Montag’s resolution/determination.  He is the symbolic opposite of Granger. 
*Granger is the leader of a group of wandering exiled intellectuals, who memorize books.. Where(-as) Beatty destroys, Granger causes [creates]; where(-as) Beatty uses fire to burn, he  uses it in order to warm.  His taking in of Montag is seen as the ultimate step in Monta’g metamorphosis – and is of critical value in  Beatty’s incorporating  (happiness and satisfaction) {I don’t understand the original here}, to the incorporation of his value[s] (the love of knowledge).
Dude you know i love to eat fried chicken on the weekends, i bet this Guy fella loves chicken.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.174.248.162 (talk) 17:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: letter of the alphabet analyses

message: In the "Accuracy as a vision of the future section," it is stated that nuclear weapons are used as a primary weapon in war time.  As far as I know, the only time they have been used as a weapon in war time was before the book was published.  Anyone else agree?
:I might, if I really understood your point. ;) It was widely feared at that time, & often seen in print, there'd be another war & nuclear weapons would be used. See, for instance, A Canticle for Liebowitz or Iron Dream. This has led to a plague of bad "post-apocalyptic" novels (Deathlands, for instance) & films ("Mad Max" & "The Postman", for instance), ignoring the consequences of society's collapse to discard some inconvenient features & retain others; never explained, for example, is where these dysfunctional societies get all their ammunition...  Trekphiler 00:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Where do the people get their ammunition?  Even after a nuclear war there would be tens of millions of rounds around - particularly in the United States where there are more guns than people.  In The Road Warrior (after the nuclear war in between that and Mad Max) there were only a handful of shotgun shells and a gun with several bullets - the rest was all arrows and homemade flame throwers.  There were more guns in Mad Max 3, but not alot - most could have come from military bases, police stations and gun stores. Casings can also be saved and reloaded.  One news story locally found a guy with 35 assault weapons, 100 hand guns, homemade pipe bombs and 25,000 rounds of ammunition. That alone is more than is seen in many post apocalyptic movies  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.219.235.164 (talk) 16:38, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nuclear weapons 

message: Does anyone agree?  I think it should be shortened to less than half. —Michael Z. 2006-10-04 04:16 Z
Yea, it does seem rather long. It would be rather difficult to shorten though.
Somaticvibe
And misleading at one point. "... and television network helicopters in pursuit, hoping to document his escape as a spectacle with the intent of distracting the people from the oncoming threat of war ..." In the novel we get to know the purpose of the filming of Montag's escape. As the events of the pursuit unfold we get to know that a likely innocent person is killed to enable the TV news assure all those who saw the chase of the efficiency of the law enforcement.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.236.49.87 (talk) 22:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plot summary is too long 

message: Can we please put a mention of the following fact in the article? Paper nor books burst into flames at the temperature 451 degrees farenheit. This title was used simply because Bradbury liked the number. I read that in a book once. It quite annoys me when I get into arguments with people ignorant enough to believe that temperature thing as fact and are adamant to believe any argument contrary. .... You know the kind of argument you get into with a person who acts like they're much smarter than they prove to be and refuse to take any sort of correction - even when you have facts in from of them. Abrynkus 21:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: well then put the little trivia somewhere... and also try to meet new people too, just a friendly advice.--201.215.168.125 02:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It really neither entirely true nor entirely false.  Some paper does ignite at 451F.  Most does not.  It depends on the paper and variables that go into making of paper.  Some paper ignites at temperatures higher than 451, some at temperature lower than (mostly lower, average is about 339 SD=62 low=152 high=526) Engstrom et. al. Fundamental Combustion Rates of Live Fuels. 2003 ACERC Conference. But you already knew that cause you read it in a book somewhere.  With evidence like that I don't know why people doubt you.  Jvbishop 21:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Ray Bradbury mentioned, during the LA Times Festival of Books (2007) that took place at UCLA, that he was looking for the temperature that would cause books to burn. He said that he called the UCLA and USC chemistry departments, and other science departments as well, and couldn't find the answer. He received the number 451 by phoning a local fire department. 76.171.182.55 23:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Hm. Let's see: "Fahrenheit 339±187" No, you're right. Nowhere near as snappy. Mr. Jones (talk) 12:24, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Probably not.  It is likely that Bradbury chose "451" because it sounds cool.  "Celsius 451" doesn't have the same sinister effect, and celsius wasn't in common use at the time.  Tealwisp (talk) 18:37, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Actual Temperature Farenheit 451 

message: :Ok, well, the article about the book Fahrenheit 451 says paper burns at 450C, while the article about movie links to the Autoignition temperature article which says it's more like 450 F.  So the two articles contradict one another badly.  I'm going to tag so someone can sort this out who's a better scientist than myself. Blackplate (talk) 04:15, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Conflict with another article

message: Should the references section include Bradury's short story "Embroidery"?  The women in "Embroidery" are talking about how it is people's actions they remember and the dialogue is very similar to the discussion at the end of  Farenheit 451. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Iain marcuson (talk • contribs) 18:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Embroidery 

message: I think that, considering Bradbury's comments, we need to include the author's view of the book. Given that Fahrenheit 451 is quite often used as a warning against government censorship, Bradbury's intent - to suggest, not that government is oppressive, but that television is an opiate - radically shifts the book's original interpretation, though the use of the book as an anti-Big Brother piece of literature will undoubtedly remain.  -EarthRise33 18:59, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Bradbury's point is not that theme of censorship does not exist in the book, but that it was not primary in his mind as he wrote it. Rather he was thinking of the stupefying effect of television and mass media. Personally (heh) I see that the censorship being permitted, even advocated, by ordinary people in the book is meant to be the consequence of that. Thus it is secondary. Of course, how it was perceived is relevant. I'm sure the context of being published in Playboy in the 1950s emphasized the censorship part of the story. Mr. Jones (talk) 12:35, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ray Bradbury's commentary

message: Hasn't Truffaut or Bradbury commented about the irony of filming a book about the suffocation of books by the audiovisual? --Error 20:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Film irony

message: Would it really be accurate to include this book under the category of "Libertarian science-fiction"?  After all, Libertarianism is a political and economic philosophy whereas this novel has to do with mind-rotting television and censorship, both decidedly social issues. 129.59.8.10 22:10, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Libertarian? 

message: Added a bit on 451 being used in System Shock 1/2 and their "descendants", Deus Ex and Bioshock. If it was just SS1 it wouldn't be notable, but they've made it a tradition, and I don't doubt future Shock-like games (including Deus Ex 3) will include the number as a tip of the hat to Looking Glass like DX and Bioshock did. Anyone who wants to cry citation needed can go here: http://www.deusex-machina.com/articles/makingofdeusex.asp dethtoll (talk) 11:01, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  System Shock 

message: I recently saw the play in South Pasadena and didn't even notice, due to poor memory, that the play is extensively different than the novel. The article touches on this in a few places (character descriptions) but I'd say that a section exploring the differences between the play and the novel could be useful. I wouldn't go so far to say that I should write it, but here's some notes from my memories:
The old woman purposefully selects a book and hands it to Montag, there is no theft and Montag doesn't read it for quite some time.
This is touched on in the article: Beaty reveals to Montag that he has thousands upon thousands of books stored secretly in his house, but that it is not illegal because he has never read a single word. Beaty is clearly, in the play, a man who found the transition to a non-reading society particularly torturous and decided the only way to suppress the 'beast' within himself was to become a fireman and burn it all down for everyone else while secretly storing it all away.
Montag eventually begins reading (without any 24 hour warning from Beaty) but what the summary on Wikipedia states (that the words just 'fall away') is more clear: he does not feel as if he UNDERSTANDS any of the work, and hopes that Faber will help him appreciate what he reads.
Beaty and Faber (via Montag) engage in a tour-de-force quote-battle which eventually ends with Beaty yelling so loudly into Montag's earpiece about coming to get him that Faber has a heart-attack and dies (though it seems he may show up later at the end of the play, but his face is obscured). During this sequence, Beaty sends the other firemen to Montag's house and, somewhat oddly, Montag declares, "Burn the televisions! Burn my bed!" and Beaty says, "You heard the man, burn his bed!"
Beaty loads The Hound with the coordinates for himself in order to give Montag time to run (adequate coverage for not having a mechanical dog chase sequence, definitely) and we even get to hear Beaty's death cry. IIRC Montag never harms anyone in the play.
The story is the same after that, for the most part, though the destruction of the city at the end is implied, but not specifically stated.
There is also a cool sequence where Montag reads poetry to two older women, friends of Mildred over for the TV show, and the poetry makes one woman burst into hysterics and the other begins shouting and lecturing about how awful it is to feel stuff.
Ray Bradbury was there, it was awesome. The end. Brad R. (talk) 03:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Differences Between Novel and Play 

message: The idea that the invention and wide use of computers could make the concept of a book burning future unlikely or difficult to portray is absurd. The internet continually changes. Bradbury's book is about self censorship so the internet would be the first thing to show signs of it. Computers could ultimately be so "user friendly" that all it is is touching pictures to watch your favorite music videos or Jackass episodes. If anything the addition of computers to society makes the idea more intriguing. Mildred could be watching "All my Children" and rating pics on a sort of "hot or not" website on her laptop or iPhone. 
Today is the perfect time setting for Fahrenheit 451.
Mix in some portable DVD players and reality TV.
It will be amazing.
Ashley Irwin  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.183.34.49 (talk) 04:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The New Movie 

message: In the campaign editor, there is a Hero Firebat (uses a flamethrower) named "Gui Montag." Does this fall into the article?
JJ12121616 (talk) 05:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  F451 Refrence in Starcraft? 

message: I wonder if it would be feasible/helpful to include audio books references to paper books articles. For example as far as I know there is an audio book 'Fahrenheit 451' read by Ray Bradbury himself. I mean if we include movie adaptations why don't we include audio books to the articles?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.58.134.22 (talk) 13:51, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Audio books 

message: In this book the literary devices and figures of speech are virtuously endless! He in the first 11 pages uses more than 24 metaphors, similes, and personification.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.218.192.170 (talk) 01:09, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Literary Goldmine 

message: in the section printings, there are 3 different kinds of Editions mentioned. If all this is known - why is not the date known? It would be very kind if someone could add day and month to this lapidar "1953" - thank you (please excuse my bad english) -- Hartmann Schedel  Prost  00:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Publishing history 

message: My book does not say 2022. It says 1990. 
One suggestion for you: please put in the topic correctly. It shows up as a gray box with text extending past the boundaries... 
Wiiop (talk) 00:18, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reply to above 

message: I know that Fahrenheit 451 was adapted into a musical, with Bradbury's input.  I want to say that it was in the '80s.  It debuted at the Civic Theater in Ft. Wayne, IN.  I saw it, but it has been too long for me to remember any details to add to the article, but someone with more knowledge might be able to help. Boomcoach (talk) 23:06, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  F 451 Musical 

message: Why does it say he memorizes recipes to compete in a nacho contest? Who's the idiot who put that down?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.49.210.161 (talk) 17:08, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  nachos? 

message: Two of the quotes in the theme section supposedly coming from Bradbury are from the author of the cited article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.81.244.101 (talk) 03:45, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theme Section 

message: Why is this article listed as relevant to 'fictional hoboes'?
The wandering "book" people at the end have a kind of hobo life style.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daisyabigael (talk • contribs) 16:12, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hobo?