Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Archive 1

message: Draft of a page that might be useful to a new Island editor at Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Watch List. Comments welcome. Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A very useful resource Lurker (said · done) 15:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Watch List

message: I was wondering whether solely direct articles such as harris or tiree should be part of the project, or if more general articles like History of the Outer Hebrides or Hebridean Myths and Legends would qualify? Or would they be better covered elsewhere?
I think they are definitely relevant. To be honest I hadn't seen the former yet. I'll add them to the list on the main page and watchlist. Ben MacDui (Talk) 10:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scope 

message: Would we have/need something similar to the project Scotland box that appears on the Aberdeen talk page? How about a userbox with a category for userpages of contributors? Sorry if these are already out there or in production, but I've not spotted anything.
I think ideally we would have both, but we are only a few days old and they have not yet been attempted. Feel free to cook something up! Ben MacDui (Talk) 11:00, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've had a go at the userbox, but something's definitely not right Wikipedia:WikiProject_Scottish_Islands/Userbox.
I made the end full stop blue rather than white, which looked better to my eye - but it seems to work OK on my user page. I didn't copy across the 'noinclude' bit. Ben MacDui (Talk) 16:57, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Project identification 

message: This may be joined to East Burra by a natural ayre but if its man-made then there is another island of circa 100 ha at OS Grid Ref HU376300. I am trying to find out more about it, not helped on searches by the fact that both Symbister and Ward of Symbister are more prominent places elsewhere in Shetland. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:09, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Ness" tends to imply a promontory. Maybe one of us needs to dig into a local history book... --MacRusgail 14:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Houss Ness or Symbister- another island?

message: I am off to the Hebrides this weekend for a little field research. On my return I am considering putting List of Orkney islands up for Featured List status. It duplicates some of the information in the main list, but as it includes details of half a dozen extra islands, and lists about 100 additional holms and skerries, I think its worth a try. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Orkneyinga Saga is also a very good source for the Norse names. I intend to put the list here, so it can be used... --MacRusgail 14:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Orkney saga

message: Grid Ref NG920722 suggests there is at least one and possibly three freshwater islands greater than 40 ha. 
Initial guestimates are: 
* Eilean Ruairidh Mòr about 45 ha  & 51 metres high
* Garbh Eilean – very difficult to measure, but about 65 ha? 25 metres high
* Eilean Sùbhainn also difficult to measure – say 102 ha. 31 metres high.
--Ben MacDui (Talk) 14:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Loch Maree

message: Just back from the west and bumped into Innis Mhor en route. NH846864 north east of Tain. Its a large tidal sand dune. Difficult to measure, but might conceivably be about 40 ha. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sand dunes are notoriously difficult to measure, as they come and go very quickly. Innis Mhòr is probably the remnant of an older island. --MacRusgail 16:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The name innis hints that it might be an old island. Innis tends to refer to smaller islands/islets, but also appears in older placenames. Dogger Bank was once supposed to be a large island as well. --MacRusgail 14:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Innis Mhor

message: This now appears on the project page navigation template. It is under construction and whilst I am enjoying the research I may be wading a little out of my depth. 
In theory typing  on a talk page will produce a banner, and allow for an assessment. However as yet there are neither suitable categories nor the assessment tabulation. WP:IS/A is the shortcut to the ultimate location of this. My main concern is that I have no idea how the system creates the tabulation, and I can't really experiment until the system is created. Nor do I know if this will prove to be a useful guide to progress or just more computing for its own sake. We shall see. Comment is, as ever, most welcome. Ben MacDui (Talk) 20:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can see your logic. We should probably treat Lewis and Harris as separate islands, because that's how people have always seen them - the fact that they are one island, is one of these bizarre "technicalities". Besides which, their culture and even geology is subtly different. I'm going to treat tidal islands as true islands, just for the sake of convenience (although of course, part of the time they are). I have blitzed through hundreds of articles, adding the WPSI tag to them, just to get it over and done with. It at least gives us an idea of scale. --MacRusgail 16:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: p.s. when things are ironed out, Lewis and Harris can probably be listed separately (in brackets) in various lists, with some kind of note.
This is a herculean effort my friend. There are about a third of the number of bannered articles that WP Scotland has accumulated!. My only concern is that as a result you may need new spectacles. Raasay is 19th in area rank. Rousay is 23rd, but surely deserving of its 'Top' status. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I think Rousay gets in at no. 20 according to Haswell-Smith's list (table 2) - that's what I was going by, rather than the one here. His book has to be our "Bible" despite the occasional mistakes in it. --MacRusgail 15:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment

message: The following is a list of prefixes common in Scottish island names. There are plenty of red links in many of them, and in some cases, the names appear to be duplicates but given slightly different co-ordinates.
* List of United Kingdom locations: Ca-Cap (Calf)
* List_of_United_Kingdom_locations:_Ef-El#Ei (Eilean)
* List_of_United_Kingdom_locations:_Ho-Hoo#Hol (Holm)
* List_of_United_Kingdom_locations:_I#In (Innis, Inch-, & Insh Island)
* List_of_United_Kingdom_locations:_I#Is (Isle, Island)
* List_of_United_Kingdom_locations:_Sg-Sh#Sg (Sgeir)
* List_of_United_Kingdom_locations:_Si-Sm#Sk (Skerry)
* List_of_United_Kingdom_locations:_Sq-Stap#Sta (Stac, Stack)
--MacRusgail 18:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: List of UK locations

message: The following are red linked settlements in the Orkney and Shetland footers -
* Shetland - Gutcher, Symbister, Toft, Shetland, Ulsta 
* Orkney - Balfour, Houton, Lyness
--MacRusgail 16:14, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great. Perhaps a list of the largest settlements on islands could be made as well. Which is the largest? Kirkwall? Stornoway? Rothesay? Lerwick? --MacRusgail 15:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Island settlements

message: The Soay articles need tidying up. As I understand it, there are two main Soays, including Soay, St Kilda, but there are also Soay Mòr and Soay Beag without articles... 
Probably what needs to be done is a main disambiguation page and the other articles created/moved to appropriate titles. --MacRusgail 16:14, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The OS maps have the sea loch named "Loch A Siar" - I assume that's the Gaelic name. Also, I note that the OS maps label the islands as Sòdhaigh Mòr and Sòdhaigh Beag - I don't know if that's a more official / common  Gaelic spelling. --Vclaw 17:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll let someone who speaks Gaelic sort that one out. Lurker (said · done) 17:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest "Sòdhaigh" - "oai" is not really a proper vowel combination in Gaidhlig, I'm sure an Siarach will concur. The sea loch should really be "Loch-a-Siar" I think, but the OS still doesn't get everything right (its Gaelic spelling - both Scottish and Irish - has improved immensely). The page "Soay" itself should be a disambiguation page. --MacRusgail 15:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Soay Sauce

message: Great idea for a project.  I edit them some because I study the geology a bit, but dang, I really don't know anything about them outside of their incredibly fascinating geology.  I'm going to unwatch list all of mine, knowing they've moved on to more competent hands.  Thanks for starting the project.  KP Botany 02:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: However, it would be nice to have someone helping out who knows a little about geology (mine really stopped with Geography Higher!!!) --MacRusgail 16:20, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Perhaps KP Botany can be tempted back into the fold. In the meantime I have a few reference books if need be. (Plus of course personal contact with some of the protagonists. I fear Schiehallion has become uppity of late since that chap Maskelyne gave him airs above his station, but I am on good terms with most of the island hills). Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scottish Islands project 

message: The following are names taken from the maps in J. Anderson's edition of the Orkneyinga Saga pub 1981, facsimile of 1873 edition. Pub James Thin and Mercat Press.
(reedited - moved most contents to Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Orkneyinga Saga created by Ben MacDui)
--MacRusgail 16:20, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Orkneyinga Saga

message: Counties containing significant island areas, pre-1975, post-1975 (contemporary regions different again)
Pre-1975
Ross & Cromarty, Inverness shire, Argyllshire, Bute, Ayrshire, Zetland, Orkney
(Minor - East Lothian, Fife, Caithness)
Former regions
* Highland Region - Districts - Skye & Lochalsh, Lochaber; Orkney, Shetland
* Strathclyde - Argyll & Bute, Cunningham
* Western Isles
 
(Minor - Lothian (East Lothian) + Fife)
Comments?
--MacRusgail 16:21, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Counties 

message: I have been working on a complete list of Linga/Lingay, most of which can be found at Linga (disambiguation) and its associated talk page. There are far too many of them in Shetland, and I would appreciate if people could disentangle which are which, and their co-ordinates.
Unfortunately "Linga" itself is a redirect page to Shiva's penis ("lingam"), and so the list of islands by area has a link to this, and doesn't disambiguate which it is. I know gods are supposed to have massive attributes, but I don't think this is what is being referred to here. --MacRusgail 15:38, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Linga and Shiva's penis 

message: James Erskine, Lord Grange (1679-1784) was supposed to have abandoned his wife (Lady Grange - Rachel Chiesley) on the Monach Isles between 1732 and 1734, and then sent her to Hirta. She eventually ended up on Skye somewhere. This was supposedly because she had overheard Jacobite conspirators in Edinburgh, and her husband and a friend got rid of her by sending her to these remote places. He also held a "funeral" for her in Edinburgh. Haswell-Smith and Collins Encyclopedia of Scotland reference these events, but I cannot find anything on it in the Monach article and couldn't track it down on the St Kilda one. She was supposed to have had her own house on Hirta, but wasn't a fan of the place.
Anyone else heard this story, or know where in Skye she ended up in old age (with dementia no less). --MacRusgail 16:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added something, but I think it should be probably placed together. The St Kilda article didn't mention she'd been on the Monachs for 2 years, which probably prepared her a bit. --MacRusgail 20:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The ODNB has a very useful article on her.  Your local library card will probably give you access: . Warofdreams talk 23:25, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lady Grange 

message: The GA review suggested that "the article include the present name of "Skildar, the old name for an island much nearer the west coast of the Outer Hebrides." from the 'Origin of name' section." The reference is from Maclean (1977) who I fear is occasionally slap-dash. The only 'hit' I have been able to find so far is this JSTOR link, which I don't have access to. Any further suggestions gratefully received. Ben MacDui (Talk) 10:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Skildar 

message: I was thinking originally more along the lines of a geo-stub, but I thought it would be useful if a Scottish island stub could be set up. Obviously the Western Isles, Orkney and Shetland geo-stubs would be subdivisions of this, but it would be useful for freshwater islands, non-geographical topics, and islands in places such as Highland region, the Forth and Clyde... --MacRusgail 15:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scottish Island stub? 

message: Can I draw your attention to Shetlopedia. This is a Shetland wiki, and therefore copyright free, so I am going to try and pinch tonnes of material from there!!! --MacRusgail 03:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great find MacRusgail! I've created a template to add to the bottom of articles incorporating Shetlopedia text: just add  to the article, and  to the talk page. For usage instructions, see the template pages. Lurker (said · done) 14:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Some of the articles are copies/doubles of wikipedia material, and some of the stuff, such as street names etc, needs to be delinked because of local interest... however, the bad side of Shetlopedia is that the website seems to be down frequently. Presumably they have some kind of bandwidth allocation --MacRusgail 23:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The template didn't work, as shetlopedia names its articles differently from wikipedia (it doesn't have "wiki" in the URL). I've made a new template, which also uses the wording incorporates text from rather than based on. It can be found at . Lurker (said · done) 14:16, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shetlopedia 

message: Many maps seem to show a sizable island in the Forth (before it becomes the Firth) just south of Alloa. Some maps seem to show two in this position. One map here shows the location as just "Inch" with one island. --MacRusgail 01:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ordinance Survey "getamap" is much better, and lists "Tullibody Inch" and "Inch" (the latter with a farm) at this location. --MacRusgail 01:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islands in River Forth 

message: I have been slapping 'NA' i.e. non-article importance on these. I believe this is standard wiki-practcie, but maybe the work involved in some of them e.g. Linga suggest they could have an article-type importance? Ben MacDui (Talk) 12:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so- i think the purpose of the rating system is to assess encyclopedia articles. Lurker (said · done) 14:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I would tend to agree with Lurker, but in the case of something like Linga, there are so many of them!!! --MacRusgail 14:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Should be "class=NA", then no need for importance. Finavon 20:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dab pages 

message: This is an AFD as far as I'm concerned, but low on my priority list at present. Ben MacDui (Talk) 10:52, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Island of fleas

message: Anyone watching my recent hobby of collecting Shetland skerries may be wondering if I am just making them up. Nonetheless, there are clearly going to be 300 or more when the job is finished, and there must be at least another 100 not identified by the OS. The phrase "Scotland has over 790 offshore islands' on the main List of islands of Scotland was one inherited from some time ago. Does anyone know where it comes from? Of course, any estimate hinges on the definition of 'island' and obviously most of the Shetland skerries are tiny and non-notable in themselves, but nonetheless I am surprised at just how many there are. If anyone was daft enough to try and repeat the task with the Hebrides we might end up with about 1,000 all told. Ben MacDui (Talk) 13:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The trick is to break them down into smaller groups. That's partly why I concentrated on the Forth, Clyde and Solway Islands first. The other problem is whether tidal islands are islands. But be grateful we're dealing with Scotland's Islands - I read recently that Indonesia has somewhere in the region of 70,000 islands - smoke on that! --MacRusgail 17:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Numbers of Islands

message: Bizarrely, the article Garbh Eilean contained more information about the Shiant group, in general that the article Shiant Isles did. I have tried to move some of the material over, but would appreciate some help. I also created a navigation template. --MacRusgail 17:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Shiant Isles

message: Can some of you sort this out for me? I have been looking round various references on Edwin Muir's life, and they seem to be divided 50/50 as to whether he was born on Wyre (, Haswell-Smith) or at Deerness on Mainland, Orkney (, Collins Encyclopedia of Scotland). The biographies seem to contradict one another on this. Anyone know what he himself said? --MacRusgail 17:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This source says he was born in Deerness, but moved to Wyre when he was 6. The BBC seems to be the only online source saying he was from Wyre. And I don't trust Haswell-Smith on historical matters, he seems to have swallowed the Zeno map hoax. Lurker (said · done) 17:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At least it's not Encyclopedia Mythica, the resource which seems to get all the world's mythologies horribly wrong. H-S, and Collins Encyclopedia both have inaccuracies, which I have picked up on, but they form useful "building blocks" to expand small articles, before primary and secondary sources can be used. --MacRusgail 19:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Edwin Muir was born in the parish of Deerness on Orkney mainland in 1887. His father was a tenant farmer and moved to the Bu, a farm on the island of Wyre, when Edwin was a few years old.Drever, David The Literature of Orkney in Omand, Donald (ed.) (2003) The Orkney Book. Edinburgh, Birlinn. Page 257. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll have to dig out his autobiography, but I suspect it's Deerness. --MacRusgail 19:14, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edwin Muir 

message: I've put Skara Brae down for this month's collaboration. It is in a sorry state for an article on such an important site. Lurker (said · done) 17:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Skara Brae 

message: Anyone want to help, I can't revert a 3rd time. Someone keeps adding racist views to the article Lewis (it may be ok to say where the population is from, but the way it is expressed is definitely racist). The user was anonymous then signed in. The same user was responsible for a rather hateful campaign against the way Sundays are on the island. Again, it was the tone rather than the content that was wrong.MRM 20:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know what the figures are, but there are certainly parts of the island's where English people make up a considerable percentage of the population. At least a third on Eigg, and quite a few elsewhere. The biggest problem resulting from this (other than language loss) is a housing shortage, especially when holiday homes are concerned. I suspect the piece is an exaggeration. The Polish remark may be a kneejerk, but certainly they are the biggest mass immigration (in such a short period) that I know of. --MacRusgail 15:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racism on Lewis Article 

message: Just back from a short trip to see Conival. All went well except that - off in the distance... it would appear to be another tidal island greater than 40 ha. 
Oldany Island estimated by Scotgaz at 200 ha, although I'd say it is more like 250. Oh dear. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:31, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oldany is one of the islands I've got on my list to add... --MacRusgail 15:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Oldany Island has now been added. --MacRusgail 18:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Assynt

message: The following appeared on the main page today - pretty picture, but the etymology is horse doo-doo.
----
"Early morning mist clings to the hills southeast of Ensay, Victoria, Australia. The township is named after the now-unpopulated island of Ensay in the Outer Hebrides of Scotland. "Ensay" is a Gaelic translation for Jesus."
----
Except that Ensay (or "Easaigh") is definitely not the Gàidhlig for Jesus - it's "Iosa" (as I'm sure An Siarach will back me up on this one) Mac an Tàilleir says it is from the Norse for "ewe island". I have brought this up here -
* Front page errors here
* 
* On the editor's page here
* Here (Ensay, Victoria)
* And here (Ensay, the island)--MacRusgail 15:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Main Page Disinformation 

message: Take a look at this. And Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Shetlopedia. Basically, Shetlopedia have relicensed their content. It's now all rights reserved. According to their copyright notice discussion page This is just a response to Shetlopedia being copied page by page onto another website. 
This does not affect current Wikipedia articles, as text released under the GFDL is permanently GFDL. But no more grabbing from Shetlopedia, I'm afraid. (Taking from revisons of their articles made before 14 September would technically be legal, but I'd advise against it) Lurker (said · done) 09:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, if any of you guys have added text from Wikipedia to Shetlopedia (I kept meaning to, but never got round to it- I was distracted by Andy Murray and rare bees), please remove it. And any text you spot on the wiki that they might have taken from here should also be removed. Lurker (said · done) 10:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A nuisance, although I understand their Pov. Discussion now continues at Wikipedia talk:Copyright problems#Shetlopedia. I was hoping to nick an image of Da Horn of Papa, which is clearly Pd-Old. Ben MacDui (Talk) 12:36, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

text: A bit cheeky really since most of their material is filched off wikipedia... and not properly sourced in some cases. That's why I didn't take their pictures. --MacRusgail 19:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Important!- Shetlopedia relicensing 

message: I'm not very good at this, but may learn. I think I may be able to help with some info on Shetland Islands if that can be of any use. What sort of thing do you want to know? I can only supply local knowledge and maybe help with location details, I know very little about facts and figures, but feel free to ask. Shetlander57 21:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest that, if you stick around, people will ask you questions as they come up. Thanks for your offer of help, and welcome to WikiProject Scottish Islands. Feel free to start editing articles, you don't need to be an expert to participate. Lurker (said · done) 10:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help offer, re. Shetland. 

message: Inch and Tullibody Inch, collectively perhaps known as Alloa Inches, are tidal islands at NS 869 917. Mercifully the former and larger is only circa 33 ha. It looks a bit iffy on a map, but aerial photos are quite unequivocal. For photo see  Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:56, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New 'Discoveries'