Talk:Kekūanaōʻa

message: Mataio Kekuanaoa was born ca. 1791-1868. He was descendant from the high chiefs of the island of Oahu. He was the royal governor of Oahu 1834 - 1868. He was the punahele, or intimate companion of Kamehameha II in his youth and follow him to England where he and his Queen Kamamalu died of measles. He married Kalanipauahi and was probably the father of her daughter Princess Ruth Keelikolani. He remarried to Elizabeth Kinau who ruled as the Kuhina-nui at the time under the name Kaahumanu II. From her he fathered Moses Kekuaiwa, Lot Kapuaiwa, Alexander Liholiho, and Victoria Kamamalu. His son Alexander and Lot would become Kamehameha IV and V. His daughter would become Kaahumanu IV and become the fifth Kuhina-nui. In December 21, 1863 he was made the sixth Kuhina-nui replacing his daughter who had been made Crown Princess and heir apparent to the throne. Most of his reign as Kuhina-nui he supported his son Kamehameha V's view of abolishing the position. He held the position until 1864 when the Constitution of 1864 abolished it. He also served as a member of the House of Nobles, Privy Council and as President of the Board of Education. In 1866, Mark Twain praised Mataio Kekuanaoa as "a man of noble presence... seemingly natural and fitted to the place as if he had been born to it...."
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.21.2 (talk) 01:54, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: * Http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Hawaii/hawaii6.htm
:As I said in the other requested articles and on your talk page(s), we need references.  Please provide the names of the books and articles you are using. —Viriditas | Talk 05:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Reference

message: I am extremely uncomfortable with the sole reliance on a court decision to dictate the parentage of Kekuanaoa.
:How comfortable you are with that reliable source is not a matter of discussion. I don't care how comfortable you are. Present sources that contradict the information or please refrain from commenting on the talk page which is not for a discussion of the general subject.--Mark Miller (talk) 06:25, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't be uncomfortable if there weren't contradictory sources: Page 141 of Fragments of Hawaiian history by John Papa Ii.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 16:17, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, your comfort is not an issue and if you have other sources, please explain why you think they trump the actual written genealogy by the subject's family and accepted by the courts as accurate? Look, there may be a lot of sources that may claim many different things, but this source is Ruth herself to the courts to show proof of lineage.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:32, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

text: As I have said, the issue is controversial. What do you summize from the sources KB?--Mark Miller (talk) 01:09, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That it is a controversy and there are different sources citing two different fathers. Fragments puts it best, although there are no sources stating Kekūanāoa was a poolua child. I'm merely listing the sources right now. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:13, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that is incorrect, as i believe I have seen such sources, but what I would really like to know is how you wish to proceed?--Mark Miller (talk) 01:15, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

text: Which is why I probably won't edit anything because I do not care to sway your belief.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:19, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Okie dokey...accepted.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:27, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, the "belief" is that I saw a source during research that specifically refers to this subject as having "two fathers" and even mentioned the poʻolua ancestry. Kamehaheha I is also of a poʻolua ancestry. It is not uncommon.--Mark Miller (talk) 18:43, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah okay. I misread your comment.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:35, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Now...the problem comes in relocating that source, however I am told this is actually mentioned in a few places discussing why Ruth was passed over for the throne by Kam 5. I remember someone on another page asking why Bernice was offered the throne and Ruth was passed over. It comes to the parentage of Bernice and Ruth as being separate issues because of several (or at least two) confusing issues with Ruth, herself and her father, as well as her father's father. Kekūanāoa accepted Ruth as his child, but there was no absolute proof. The issue of Kekūanāoa's parentage added on top of Ruth's are the reasons why there is such a controversy. Bernice's Mother was descended from High chiefs and the line meets up with Kamehameha I in the great grand parentage. So I believe the reason why Bernice had no problems was because she was still descended from enough royal blood to see her line continue on the throne...had she accepted.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:55, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Stick to the sources and don't hypothesize on an issue you, I, and the academic scholarship agree is controversial. Here is the what one source by Kanahele says about Pauahi.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:58, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: This is from the sources. Don't be so rude or aggresive. it isn't called for.--Mark Miller (talk) 21:43, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, we are allowed to speculate on talk pages.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:06, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nāhiʻōleʻa 

message: *
**Contemporary record in his Obituary mentions his parents as Nahiolea and Inaina.
*Fornander
**Kekuanaoa stood forth. The offspring of Nahiolea; Kiilaweau, an uncle, [Was] only an idle boaster. - Interesting line from "He Kanikau no Liholiho." May refer to Kekuanaoa's disputed paternity but  too bad there is no sourced context 
*Kamakau, calls Nahiolea 
*Fragments of Hawaiian history by John Papa Ii.
**However, according to some, he had two fathers. Remember the dirge of Nakanealoha which went thus : These were both the husbands of Inaina. If he was the son of Kiilaweau then he was a younger relative of Ii and of Kanaina. If he was the the son of Nahiolea, then Ii is a junior relative of his parents.
::As I have said, the issue is controversial. What do you summize from the sources KB?--Mark Miller (talk) 01:09, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That it is a controversy and there are different sources citing two different fathers. Fragments puts it best, although there are no sources stating Kekūanāoa was a poolua child. I'm merely listing the sources right now. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:13, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that is incorrect, as i believe I have seen such sources, but what I would really like to know is how you wish to proceed?--Mark Miller (talk) 01:15, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Which is why I probably won't edit anything because I do not care to sway your belief.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:19, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Okie dokey...accepted.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:27, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, the "belief" is that I saw a source during research that specifically refers to this subject as having "two fathers" and even mentioned the poʻolua ancestry. Kamehaheha I is also of a poʻolua ancestry. It is not uncommon.--Mark Miller (talk) 18:43, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah okay. I misread your comment.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:35, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Now...the problem comes in relocating that source, however I am told this is actually mentioned in a few places discussing why Ruth was passed over for the throne by Kam 5. I remember someone on another page asking why Bernice was offered the throne and Ruth was passed over. It comes to the parentage of Bernice and Ruth as being separate issues because of several (or at least two) confusing issues with Ruth, herself and her father, as well as her father's father. Kekūanāoa accepted Ruth as his child, but there was no absolute proof. The issue of Kekūanāoa's parentage added on top of Ruth's are the reasons why there is such a controversy. Bernice's Mother was descended from High chiefs and the line meets up with Kamehameha I in the great grand parentage. So I believe the reason why Bernice had no problems was because she was still descended from enough royal blood to see her line continue on the throne...had she accepted.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:55, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Stick to the sources and don't hypothesize on an issue you, I, and the academic scholarship agree is controversial. Here is the what one source by Kanahele says about Pauahi.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:58, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: This is from the sources. Don't be so rude or aggresive. it isn't called for.--Mark Miller (talk) 21:43, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, we are allowed to speculate on talk pages.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:06, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: The article may be wrong on the father. I am looking into the issue.--Maleko Mela (talk)  22:45, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Parentage 

message: Valuable information on his birth was removed. The editor of the Pacific Commercial Advertiser wrote in his obituary that he was born while his family was in Hilo during Vancouver's third visit to Hawaii. Besides this news paper article, we have reliable sources for both 1794 and 1791 as the birth year. Removing the editor's speculation that it was probably precisely January 1794 is definitely constructive but removing the year 1794 (which reliable sources exist for) and the information surrounding the detail of the brith is not. The source also provides many valuable information on his mother's family, who were kahu of  Kamehameha I.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:27, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: This source also claims he was born in Keomoalii instead of Hilo. It seems like other Hawaiian figures of his time, Kekuanaoa's birth year is not precisely known since it is mixed up in a lot hear-say written by others observing his age and oral accounts not written down until really late in his life or in the editor's case as part of his obituary. This situation is similar to Talk:Kamehameha I/Archive 1#Death date.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:28, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The claim was not supported by the source because the paper was speculating based of an event unrelated to the birth of the figure and no way to confirm such, while the age of 77 is from the figure and family (such as Ruth) and is sourced to RS. If you have counter information that is from a reliable source that is not speculative and at the very least attributed opinion, and has some context to understand the basis of the claim then add it and if doesn't fit within the policy and guidelines of reliable sourcing it should be removed or strengthened with better sourcing.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:39, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The paper is stating the birth occurred in Hilo shortly after Vancouver's visit (as a fact, how he got this I don't know); the speculation lies in the dating of it to around January 1794 (since Vancouver visited around January of 1794). You're correct though in stating that it lacks any basis since it doesn't reveal where he got the information. It is probably impossible to say how he got about the knowledge and any guess that I may offer about how he got it would just be useless speculation..."from the figure and family" - I'm confuse here because at present only Forbes and Zambucka is being used to source the 1791 date. Neither contain a written testimony quoting Kekuanaoa himself or Keelikolani herself stating his age was 77 at the time of his death? I mean Zambucka's biography of Keelikolani does contain the line "Paralyse in one leg towards the end of his life Mataio Kekuanaoa lived 77 years." But that's just a secondary source and not from the figure or the family; its just Zambucka's own research.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 08:28, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death date 

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thread_title:  External links modified