Talk:Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority/Archive 2

message: I've been adding little bits to this article over the past month, but I was wondering what can be done to improve the article on the quality scale.  I've been looking at several of the other US rail transit articles trying to get a better idea of what can be added to the article.  
Here are some ideas I had:  
*Moving the rail line & bus information from the bottom of the article to the first or second section of the article, since it is probably the most important information about MARTA
*Move the breeze card subsection out of history and into a new "fare" section, which details breeze and also the prices of one-way, weekly, and montly fares.  
*Add a subsection on the hours of operation
*The history section should really be expanded beyond just a few dates.  Because I have only lived in Atlanta a short while, I really don't know much about the MARTA history.  I'm not really sure if there are any books or good online references on the construction history, initial expansion plans, history of logos, fares, old maps, old pictures, etc.  Does anyone have any good leads on sources?
*Should we add info on any of the following:
**Rail yard info
**Paratransit info
**Marta oversight committe (MARTOC)
**MARTA police
**Automatic rail control system
I can pretty much handle most of this (except the history section) if everyone is in agreement, but I wanted to post here first to get any feedback. --Biomedeng 02:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your listed changes all sound reasonable. As far as available history, little is online. We're still relying on books and studies at various libraries. Guess that's better than nothing! --Jolomo 02:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with those changes. It should help the article out to get it out of B-rating. I favor inclusion of those last items as well. Marta seems to be very bad about keeping their site update (example, last Breeze press release was in May). Search the AJC, Ive learned more about MARTA from the AJC than Marta itself. Some where in the AJC we might people able to find the citiation needed for the fare evasion figure. Amazingracer 18:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I would suggest reading "Sprawl City: Race, Politics, and Planning in Atlanta" for some historic background on MARTA and its place in Metro Atlanta.  Amazon.com has the search inside feature turned on for this book so you can read some of the pages related to MARTA before deciding to buy the book or hunt for it in the library.  Thanks for all the work you and everyone has been putting into making this an accurate article instead of a dumping ground for pro and con opinions about MARTA. AubieTurtle 14:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added an inuse template to the main article and am currently restructuring the article to make the discussed changes.  I appreciate everyone's patience while I work on the article over the next 1-2 hours.  Biomedeng 16:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I have restructure the article.  I moved the MARTA Network (rail and bus) up to the top.  I wasn't sure if it should come before history (it is mixed across other major US rail/public transit articles) but the history section is kind of weak and the current system reach is maybe of interest to more users.  Overall I did not change much of the existing text, but I regrouped some subsections into different sections, and adding subsections on fares, hours, police, paratransit, and MARTOC.  Please help me to expand these new sections (some are just placeholders now).  I did not add any information on rail yards, and also wondered if we should have a section on safety (rail accidents, crime, etc.)?  I can try to get a copy of that book suggested by AubieTurtle.  I thik if we all keep working on this article over the next 1-2 weeks we could maybe re-submit it for review to see if we have improved the B-rating.  Biomedeng 18:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thing the changes look great. One of the main things would probably be to get everything cited. I have started citing some of the things that need citing, but I don't know what else needs citing, so if some one marks stuff, I don't mind googling out some sources. Biomegdeng you may have fixed this with the changes but some who his good with grammar should rethrough and see what needs to be fixed. Ive noticed a few grammatical errors here and there, but I'm horrible at proof-reading to do any major checking. Biomedeng is right within a few weeks we could have this article ready for review. Also after looking at some of the other transit articles, should we add a section for accidents? Just a thought. Amazingracer 01:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I came across these historical images while googling MARTA.  Does anyone have access to the full images, in particular the initial proposed rail lines?  I have a sneaking suspicion that the user who posted these images actively edits this article.  It might be interesting to spin the MARTA history off into a seperate article since the current system is quite abbreviated/changed compared to the original plans.  I am not sure if these images are copyrighted, but probably aren't if they are part of a government study. Biomedeng 03:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improvements to article 

message: On MARTA's how to use website (http://www.itsmarta.com/howto/howto.htm), it makes no mention of the Breeze System at all. Quite odd. Just goes to show why much of this article is uncited or came from different sources other than MARTA. Thought that was interesting and figured I would share.Amazingracer 04:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately the MARTA website is not always properly updated.  Probably the how-to page was created before the rollout of Breeze and hasn't been updated to reflect the change.  You could e-mail MARTA customer service to ask that the website be updated.  I had a similar situation for one of the rail station pages (Garnett) which listed the DMV as being accessible from the station, but that DMV office had been moved years ago.  It took 3 emails and about 2 months to get the site updated.  Biomedeng 14:47, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: How-to Use MARTA

message: The individual pages for each rail station are mostly stubs.  Some station pages have had sections for nearby attractions added.  I would like to suggest that we use half a mile as the standard distance for what can be included in the attractions section. We may also want to establish standards for minimum size of a retail shopping attraction for inclusion.  I added the Edgewood Retail District to the Inman Park/Reynoldstown station because it is large and close to the station but I would like to avoid a situation where ever video store and QT gets listed.  I would also like to know what others think of adding a section to the station pages for nearby large housing developments. AubieTurtle 16:48, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is a great idea and likely we can do better than MARTAs own website.  I also think we should add parking info (number of spaces, and cost of long term parking) as applicable.  Thoughts?  Biomedeng 03:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I suggest a half-mile as a guide. But include up to one mile could be included based on the station's geographical centroid. If it's beyond a half-mile indicate it or list attractions by distance in m/km, steps, calories etc.. Please see Walk There! Attractions, Shopping, Destinations (pdf 637 K) published by Central Atlanta Progress, Atlanta Downtown Improvement District. Thoughts? Kokayi 23:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Attractions section on individual station pages

message: Since the mediation cabal is experiencing heavy backlog and would probably be slightly upset for wasting their time on such a silly matter. Let's use a simple poll to determine if it should be noted that there is a Lindbergh Center RideStore, with the inclusion of  the fact that it is in the MARTA HQ. As seen here: 17:22, 30 October 2006.
Im still not eligible to peform a revert, so when an appropriate number of votes has been casted, please do the honors of reverting, and I will withdraw the Mediation request. Amazingracer 18:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Straw Poll for the Inclusion of the Lindbergh RideStore

message: *Amazingracer 18:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: Today I noticed on my way out Arts Center that the BVMs did not show the little red line of text on the home screen saying "No Debit/Credit Cards Accepted". Just to make sure I acted like I was buying a fare and sure enough the BVm asked me to insert cash or a debit/credit card. I havent found anything on MARTA's website saying this is live so that it maybe posted here since right now its just original reasearch. So keep yours eyes peeled for a press release. Amazingracer 01:33, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that you should wait until MARTA release a statement or changes their website to reflect the ability of BVMs to accept credit/debit cards, especially since we don't know how many of the stations have BVMs that have been updated and also to deal with the possibility that this might be a trial release of the upgrade to the machines.  Since the main article currently does not mention the ability of the BVMs to accept credit/debit cards but the Breeze Card article does, I suggest that this discussion be discontinued here and resumed on the talk page for the Breeze Card. AubieTurtle 21:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a new AJC article which talks about BVMs now accepting credit cards.  AmazingRacer, do you want to do the honors of updating?  Biomedeng 04:41, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Finally

message: Kitch updated the Heavy rail section to state:  "MARTA is separating the orange and blue lines into four total lines, which are described below.  Maps on this article still reflect the previous two-color line system."   
First of all I have seen the new maps which use a red for the North Springs-Airport line, orange for Doraville-Airport, green for Bankhead-King, and blue for H. E. Holmes-Indian Creek, which are only present on *some* of the rehabilitiated MARTA cars.  
However, without additional citations beyond personal observation (which is original research), you cannot make the claim on the article that the lines are being "separated" and that the colors are being changed.  Please provide some proof that this is a formal change of the rail line designations and not simply just a change on the map for illustrative purposes only. Biomedeng 02:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: MARTA has put the new rail map online, so I think it is now safe to break the rail lines out into red, orange, blue and green.  http://www.itsmarta.com/getthere/schedules/index-rail.htm  AubieTurtle 05:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: As stupid as it is, please keep in mind that taking photographs on MARTA without the express permission of MARTA is a crime.  I haven't heard of anyone getting arrested for it, but do be careful.  Since the new maps were put up after MARTA restrictive photography policy was implemented, the photo itself could be used as evidence against you. 24.99.132.238 03:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How is me posting a photo evidence that I took the picture?  Probably marta could charge you with a crime if they catch you taking the photo.  But are we committing a crime by posting a picture of MARTA online?  Biomedeng 03:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks so much for clarifying the heavy rail section.  I think you made some things even clearer than they were originally.  Biomedeng 23:16, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: If they go to the new color scheme, you'll just be "retro" and be able to tell everyone you were into MARTA way back when. 24.99.132.238 03:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  rail line colors 

message: Recently 76.17.92.32 deleted the following paragraph:
Georgia transportation policies and race have been compared to a two-tiered transportation apartheid. Billions are spent by the state to aid commutes of mostly Caucasian residents of the suburbs, while service cuts at MARTA have hurt mostly African Americans. 
The only edit summary give was "Billions of dollars?".  I reverted back the article to include the above paragraph.  
I did not write this section, but I do think it is fair to point out the descrepancies in funding between highways and public transit.  The reference for this section does mention that the DOT spends billions a year on improving car commuting.  I am not sure if this is the statewide budget or numbers just for Atlanta.  I would be willing to research DOT numbers further if needed, or we could simply just state that the state spends a significant amount of money on car based trasnit, whereas they do not contribute money to MARTA.  Although I do however not agree with the use of apartheid to describe the system (it's too extreme to me), it was used in the reference by someone who is an expert in Atlanta transit, so I think it is fair to state that it has been compared to a transportation apartheid.  
I am not looking to start another edit war, but felt the deletion was unwarranted without discussion.  Feel free to add your thoughts and hopefully we can reach a consensus.  Biomedeng 13:54, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racial concern section 

message: I've got two burning questions about MARTA that I thought maybe some people could answer:  
*This photo makes it look like MARTA is transporting the old train cars for rehab by trucking.  I guess I had just assumed they would be transported using commercial rail.  Does anyone know what else this image could be?
*What does it mean when the MARTA bus says Tripper instead of the bus route?  
Thanks.  Biomedeng 00:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The flickr photo is kind of interesting as i had assumed they just throw the cars on a freight train and haul them to New York (or where ever they go) as well. Never seen the Tripper sign so I cant be much help there. Amazingracer 05:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The tripper sign is for school shuttles. MARTA uses them whenever the route usually serving a school would be overloaded or is not timed to arrive right after school starts. On some schedules, MARTA actually does build in runs then only exist on school days (denoted by an asterisk) that aren't tripper shuttles, just the normal route. This only really happens in the morning, when more people ride in a shorter period anyway. This system is actually quite helpful, especially when you have a ton of kids that need to ride the 45 to Midtown at 3:50, but the next bus is scheduled to get to them at 4:06. Hope this helps. --Useless.miscellany 11:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  burning questions 

message: Should we be incorporating this morning's derailment into a safety section in the artice?  Here is the latest AJC article on the incident.  Or is this kind of thing better suited for wikinews?  Biomedeng 19:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There should be something sais about MARTA's accidents, but they same time it might be perceived as cluttering. Definitely should be a safety section though in some form. Amazingracer 03:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  MARTA derailment 

message: I have modified the page to show parking at Arts Center.  I mention it here because MARTA maps do not show that there is a parking lot there.  This is probably because the lot is small (33 spaces) but that doesn't change the fact that it does exist.  MARTA's page for the Arts Center station does state that the parking lot exists so this is not original research. http://itsmarta.com/getthere/stations/artscenter.htm AubieTurtle 05:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is fine.  One quesiton I have about the parking spaces are there any unrestricted parking spaces at the station?  For example Midtown has 14 spaces, but all of them are somehow restricted (kiss-ride, maintenance, police, flexcar, and handicapped).  Is arts center the same way?  Biomedeng 01:06, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, though I don't know how many are unrestricted.  There are some restricted spots and even one FlexCar spot. I certainly wouldn't drive over there expecting to find a spot but if you're lucky, you can find one. AubieTurtle 04:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

text: The parking lot is also closed on the weekends. Didnt know if that should be mentioned or not. Most parking lots are 7 days a week arent they? Amazingracer 16:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, all of the other lots are a 24/7 kind of deal.  I wonder why they close it on the weekends?  I don't think it should be mentioned beyond the station page unless there are definately some unrestricted spaces.  Biomedeng 16:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I double checked the parking lot at Arts Center and almost all of the space are unrestricted.  However, this brings up a problem.  As editors, we are not suppose to do original research but rather rely on the sources that we can cite.  Keeping that in mind, we would have to make stations such as Midtown that have parking that is all restricted the same way we mark Arts Center, even though it has primarily unrestricted parking.  Because MARTA doesn't specify on their site how many spaces are unrestricted (if any), it puts us in a situation where in order to be accurate, we must either 1) do original research, 2) petition MARTA to update their pages to reflect the split between restricted/unrestricted parking, or 3) Use another criteria when deciding which stations to make as having parking versus no parking.  The first option goes against Wikipedia guidelines, the second would be the best solution provided MARTA will actually do it, and the third option could be that we change the key to be something like "stations with fifty or more parking spaces", which is information easily obtained from MARTA's website.  AubieTurtle 17:37, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arts Center Parking