Talk:String Quartets (Schoenberg)

message: We currently have this work introduced thus: "Schoenberg's first string quartet was his first assured masterpiece, and it was the real beginning of his reputation as a composer". This sounds a bit POV, or a bit under-informed, to me. Verklärte Nacht (op. 4, 1899) is surely the "first assured masterpiece", and the Quartet was also preceded by Gurrelieder (essentially composed 1900-1901, though admittedly not completed until afterwards) and Pelleas und Melisande, both of which may lack the Quartet's formal perfection but are arguably masterpieces at least as important. As for "the real beginning of his reputation as a composer" he already had a reputation, and its "real beginning" was probably with the premiere of Pelleas und Melisande in 1905. (Alma Mahler writes somewhere that this was when people relized he was a bigger figure than his teacher Zemlinsky, or words to that effect.) I haven't changed the text of the article at this point, but I submit these are grounds for considering changing it. Cenedi (talk) 19:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no quartal harmony in this piece or in the example provided.  The motive outlines perfect and diminished fifths but the resulting chords are all tertian... 216.106.133.65 (talk) 04:05, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: String Quartet No. 1, op. 7

message: Does it really fall into Wikipedia contemporary music? The guidelines on the subject suggest only music post-1945. The last of these works was written in 1937. Cenedi (talk) 11:23, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What "guidelines on the subject" are you referring to? Have you read the description on the project page Wikipedia:WikiProject Contemporary music (also linked from the tag)? If not, I suggest you do, and also see the talk page for the project, especially the section Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Contemporary_music#Um...the_bot_adding_the_template. The composer page Arnold Schoenberg is also tagged for this project.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I did read the description on the project page, and the links therefrom to "modern music", "experimental music" and "avant-garde music" didn't really any of them seem to fit for Schoenberg. The talk page has a lot of interesting stuff on it, but again I don't see anything that seems to be conclusive as to where Schoenberg falls. Sure, lots of people still have difficulty with his music, but I don't know that anything composed in the first half of the last century can any more be realistically called 'contemporary music'. That's all I wanted to say and, having said it, will hold my peace. Cenedi (talk) 19:52, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Contemporary music?

message: Carl Engel's translation of the George poems in the Second String Quartet translates the title of the 4th movement, 'Entrückung' as 'Transport', but here it is translated as 'Rapture'. Is the word untranslatable or is this a mistake? It just struck me as quite a big discrepancy. Furiens (talk) 15:06, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps it depends on the sense of each English word of which you are thinking. If you take "transport" in the sense of long-distane haulage, and "rapture" in the sense either of "religious ecstasy" or "immediate physical ascension to heaven" then, yes, I would agree there is a discrepancy. This is always a problem where translation is concerned. The German word is compounded from the prefix ent-, which has the sense of "remove", "deprive", "undo" (and similar things), and rücken, "move". The verb entrücken has the sense of "carried away", "transported", "lost in reverie"; the nouns Entrückung and Entrückheit may perhaps best be translated as "reverie".—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:09, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

text: That translation was added on 17 August 2006 by User:Rainwarrior. No credit was supplied, so I presume it was his own work, and not a copyright-free translation borrowed from a published source. Rainwarrior claims level-3 German on his talk page, which is the same level I claim myself, but he must have been in a terrible hurry. You are absolutely right about the translation, and you should feel free to correct it (just as any editor on Wikipedia is free to do). Ideally, of course, the translation should stick to the original rhyme scheme, and contain exactly eleven syllables per line to match the German original, but this may be demanding a little too much ;-)—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:47, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

text: No offense taken—after all, you are not criticizing my work! At the very worst, you might be criticizing my inattention to the shortcomings of this translation, and that is only fair. My remark about syllable count and rhyme scheme was meant humorously (hence the smiley at the end of the sentence). I know from experience how severe a restriction this can be, even for an isolated pair of lines. I don't think it is usual on Wikipedia to go through a preliminary discussion before making improvements of the sort you propose here, though there is certainly no harm (and every advantage) in giving advance notice to other editors who may feel they have a personal investment in the text, or who may even know of sound reasons why it should not be altered. If everyone was this considerate, there would be less acrimony and fewer edit wars. Welcome to Wikipedia, and may you have a rewarding and satisfying experience editing here.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:26, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rapture?