Talk:Leopard 2

message: The Leopard II has a speed of 39 MPH with the L/55 gun, and 44MPH with the L/44. Yet the information panel places the Leopard II with the L/55 gun, and 45 MPH. The only model that uses the L/55 gun is the A6 and that particular model comprises less than 1/10th of the Leopard II German fleet. So unless the panel specifies what equipment belongs to what model, we must select one and represent it well, not cherry pick the most favorable statistics from each model.
65.24.242.242 (talk) 04:54, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Super Cherry Picking: Official top-speed record for the Leo 2A4 is 116 Km/h, or 73 mph. http://www.whq-forum.de/cms/27.0.html  HTH, greetz from Germany --212.23.103.47 (talk) 05:15, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

text: 122 Km/h is not possible with standard gear box, you´d overspeed the n2 to about 180%. Impossible. 89.204.139.32 (talk) 06:35, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cherry picked statistics 

message: Quatar will buy up to 200 Leopard 2s.    (in german).--78.43.36.236 (talk) 07:57, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the link. Added under 'Operators' (Future/Pending). C.d.rose (talk) 13:16, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quatar 

message: It was previously reported that the Defense Ministry had bought 153 tanks worth US$280 million from the German government, comprising 61 Leopard Ri tanks, 42 Leopard 2A4 tanks and 50 Marder tanks.
The Jakarta Post, Jakarta | National | Mon, September 23 2013, 8:52 PM
So, what are the Leopard Ri?Crock81 (talk) 23:46, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indonesian Leopards 

message: I removed a map (an image file depicting countries where Leopard 2 is in use) on account that it is no longer accurate and therefore contradicts the written information (and therefore goes against the WP:Rules). Apparently some editors think that the article should be used as a notice board and that the wrong map should remain in place, supposedly so that it is easy or convenient for future replacement. I don't see anywhere in WP:rules that makes an allowance for an error image file to remain on an article indefinitely until an updated image shows up. —Loginnigol (talk) 06:33, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The image caption clearly said that the map showed Leopard 2 operators as of 2009. I have updated the image/map, adding Indonesia as an operator (using a very simple freeware image editor), and uploaded the new version to Commons, and also changed the image caption in the article to read status as of April 2014. Which took me about five minutes in total, that is far less time than you have spent on edit-warring over it. Thomas.W  talk 09:33, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Faulty Map 

message: Ex-A6NL converted to A7.  UrbOp-Program canceled!
http://www.janes.com/article/46904/germany-receives-first-leopard-2a7-mbt  --178.24.63.207 (talk) 01:41, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Germany receives first Leopard 2A7 MBT 

message: Hi Denniss, as you can see below, the "Turkish Army vehicles" category includes the Leopard 2, as well as dozens of other foreign-sourced vehicles. The category is not military vehicles produced by Turkey, but vehicles used by the Turkish Army. You can either add that category to the Leopard 2 page, or remove all those vehicles from that category. 
Best, UCaetano (talk) 22:57, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Than add every single county that uses leopard 2 tanks, clearly this tab is unnecessary and mainly there to promote nationalistic agenda among nationalistic dick waving Turks. It is silly, nationalistic and stupid and totally unnecessary, if wiki can't see this than this encyclopedia might as well stop being encyclopedia and turn in to a nationalistic propaganda tool.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.151.171.98 (talk) 03:48, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This page belongs in that category, as it is a vehicle used by the Turkish Army. Please be polite when discussing here. UCaetano (talk) 00:59, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

text: No, this template does not belong to the Leo 2 page for exactly the reason the IP stated. If everyone tags their vehicles this way we would have several tank articles plastered with user/usage templates. That's why we only accept templates from the original user or by-type or by timeframe templates. --Denniss (talk) 02:51, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

text: It makes no sense to add templates to articles based on marginal relevance. The Turkish military uses the Leo 2, so what? Many other countries do so as well. The connection between the two is marginal and does not warrant a navigational template. --benlisquareT•C•E 03:33, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  The previous standing consensus was WITH the category, for many months. Don't make an edit away from a previous consensus and comment saying "do not revert until new consensus is reached". That is exactly the opposite of how it should be done. Anyway, if you guys feel strongly about it, leave it off, don't really care as long as several editors support this change. UCaetano (talk) 05:04, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agree with Benlisquare. This article should probably be included in :Category:Main battle tanks of Turkey, but adding the Turkish vehicle template is not at all desirable or useful. We are not going to add a template for all countries that operate/d the Leopard 2, otherwise we could have 17 templates one on top of the other at the bottom of this article. I fail to see how that might be useful for the encyclopedia. It already has two useful templates. Regards, Peacemaker67  (crack... thump) 05:15, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

text: Category ≠ template. You're moving the goal posts here, UCaetano, since I never made a single mention about the category. --benlisquareT•C•E 10:01, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the initial comment by the IP mentioned "category", though it appears they "meant" template. Cheers, Peacemaker67  (crack... thump) 11:09, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed - the template has no place on this page. Imagine the size of the mess applying the practice to widely used weapons like the T-54/55 or the M1911. Parsecboy (talk) 11:57, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

text:  Yeah, there was a mix-up between category and template here, don't worry. I was just reverting an unexplained edit away from a previous consensus, not edit warring here folks :) UCaetano (talk) 17:32, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish Army vehicles 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Huh ? please explain for civilians. Rcbutcher (talk) 14:25, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Replacement : "more importance is being placed on direct fire guns"

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'm just trying to provide more references to this section. In December 2016, in the Al Bab offensive, IS have knocked out 10 Leopard 2 tanks (2A4s), and captured 2... it would seem to me, this would appear to be the most amount of action the Leo 2s have seen. If you have better references than I have put in there, please feel free to add. Also odd to see IS as owners of Leo 2s!. Cheers Deathlibrarian (talk) 01:24, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Not only were they incredibly obsolete and unfit for the rolling hills of Germany let alone urban combat, and even worse was that they were sent in without infantry support. A2Bros (talk) 17:51, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkey/Syria 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: New research does not match old figured whose sources have unfortunately expired. https://www.janes.com/article/86746/idex-2019-calidus-aims-b-250-at-middle-east-north-african-market --Jurryaany (talk) 23:31, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The article you listed covers the Calidus B-250 light attack aircraft. This article and this one from 2018 were the only ones from Jane's site covering Singapore denies Leopard 2 tanks. -Fnlayson (talk) 00:08, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Singapore numbers discrepancy 

message: lol This sounds as if the Leopard 2 used the M1 Abrams gun. But it's the other way round: The Abrams use the german Rheinmetall Leopard 2 gun. To be more precise: to be able to fire our caseless ammunition, invented by German Rheinmetall chief engineer Dr. Stefan Thießen. How come that you can wager your boots that English Wiki articles are always full of this sort of subtle, manipulating U.S. propaganda and jingoism, how great they were. Unbefuckinglievable.
:I second this. Ever since I joined this community, my stance is always to shoot people like this. The M256, the gun used on the Abrams, is based on the Rh L/44 gun, but there are several differences, the most important being the bore evacuator and the muzzle reference system being changed to fit the Abrams. Thank you for bringing this up, and I will be searching for whoever wrote that. A2Bros (talk) 17:48, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Check the actual article text and not assume.  The full text actually says "The primary armament for production versions of the Leopard 2 is the Rheinmetall 120 mm smoothbore gun—the same gun later adapted for use on the M1 Abrams.." now.  This is clear that the Leopard 2 had it first. This wording has been in the article for at least 3 years. -Fnlayson (talk) 18:04, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "the same gun currently used on the M1 Abrams" 

message: The unit cost is stated to be 5.74 million USD but the source says that these units were surplus , thus, the actual production cost will be higher. Also, the units were both the leopard 2A5 and the 2A6.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by DillieKoe (talk • contribs) 12:59, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unit cost 

message: I saw a lot of sources on the use of the leopard in the nordic contries, but no discussion on it yet. How come? PisaTesting (talk) 11:20, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use in Scandinavia(Sweden, Finland, Norway and Denmark) 

message: Is there any source for that they are still being produced? I never heard about any new units expect upgrading older versions. Eurohunter (talk) 20:20, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Produced: 1979–present 

message: With the announcement by the German government of their intention to send Leo 2's, in addition to allowing other nations like Poland and Finland to do so as well, Ukraine should be moved to the list of active operators of the type. Their crews are already training on the tanks in Poland. Brett6781 (talk) 06:22, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Deliveries of Leopard 2 have not yet begun to AFU either in Ukraine or Poland. Ukraine will be moved to active operators when there is verifiable evidence of Ukranian possession and use. Reports at time of writing suggest that training is to be arranged. Atomix330 (talk) 13:29, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This is still current at time of posting. Atomix330 (talk) 22:38, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: With Polish delivery, Ukraine is now an operator. Atomix330 (talk) 13:39, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ukrainian operation 

message: Should longer sections about exports, variants, and operators be 'pruned' and spun off into their own individual pages? Atomix330 (talk) 02:24, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sections/Pages 

message: Please, do not use the picture of 2A7+ with Trophy as the primary picture. The picture should represent the topic. Using a picture of the single-made technology demostrator is incorrect, as it doesn't represent this particular tank family. It's a very ambiguous image. Why not using AbramsX pic for M1 Abrams? Why not Panther KF51 for Leopard 2? RajatonRakkaus (talk) 14:36, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @Atomix330 sorry, didn't manage to tag. I understand that quality matters. There are okay pictures of Leo 2 in Commons, it's not needed to use the photo of the tank which doesn't even look like Leo 2. RajatonRakkaus (talk) 14:41, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There are other photos of the 2A7 on Commons but the one of the demonstrator is visually the clearest - a little further research shows that it is equivalent to the Leopard 2A7+ ordered by Qatar and Hungary. I have found a replacement image of a German 2A7 and I have updated the caption. Atomix330 (talk) 23:16, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: About that picture, it is labelled as a German 2A7 , but the front of the hull looks a lot more like a 2A5, also owned by Germany. Are you sure that it is labelled correctly? Gianfilippo96 (talk) 10:40, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

text: Another reason for choosing a different photo is that the uploader of this particular photo has a history of uploading photos to wikimedia in violation of our WP:COPYVIO policies. Lklundin (talk) 16:30, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: There's no logical flow to this entire article. Just looking at it gives me a headache.
The order of topics covered starts promisingly with the development, some very precise information about the pre-series and prototypes, and then the quality of the page drops off rapidly, with cobbled together pieces of commercial marketing information from vendors proposing upgrades, to a unreasonably exhaustive coverage of ALL news related to Ukraine in the MIDDLE of the page, which then resumes with the technical details of the vehicle. Just a MESS.
The layout I propose:
1. History/development
2. Technical description of vehicle/armament
3. Variants
4. Service history
5. Users, former and current.
Podlesok86 (talk) 05:32, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page is atrocious, needs to be tidied up 

message: I think it would be useful to add photos to the ukranian section of the combat history. These two photos especially i would like to add: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F4wa8CaXkAAAn3-?format=jpg&name=large and this https://newsyou.info/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/zsu-tank-leopard.jpg , as far as i know the author of both photos is wm_blood, i think an attempt should be made at contacting him for permission to use them  D1d2d3d29 (talk) 14:01, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding a photo to the Ukranian section of the article 

message: The page mentions the Pz 87–140 as a Swiss prototype and the source is only one single image. I found a potential source from the Military Museum Full, which says it has the prototype as an exhibit.
NiciBozz (talk) 08:02, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pz 87–140 

message: > According to Ukrainian soldier Oleksandr Solonko, their ability to withstand damage is superior to Soviet tanks due to its design that stores ammunition separately from the crew to explode outward if struck, enabling crewmembers to survive hits that would be fatal in a T-72 that stows ammunition under the turret. Damaged Leopard 2s can be repaired in Poland or Germany
I think this paragraph should be removed, i don't think Ukrainian soldiers talking about western tech in western interviews are a source reliable enough that it doesn't warrant scrutiny (and i think this statement warrants scrutiny), since the interviewed soldier could be kiss assing western tech, or they could just be plain wrong (soldiers can still be very wrong, just look at all the negative sherman reviews despite it being a great tank)
There is several reasons i am doubting this statement as being credible, first of all what does it mean by "withstand damage"? Because the wording implies not just crew survivability but armor in general, and there are many soviet build (even if modernized) tanks in Ukrainian service like the T-64BV zr 2017 that as far as i am aware of have better armor then the Leopard 2A4, off course there is the Leopard 2A6 but the 2A4 makes up the majority of leopards in UA service
And also the wording implies that the T-72 is a death trap, which it isn't, the CIA actually praised it's crew survivability during the cold war, it's certainly not as survivable as, for example, the abrams with it's blow out panels and more spread apart crew, but the T-72 is still an upgrade over previous generation tanks like the M60, T-62, Chieftain and etc crew survivability wise. That's because as long as the spare turret racks aren't filled the T-72 can't be ammoracked by a hit to the turret (due to the ammo being deep in the hull), making it basically un-explodable if it is hulldown  D1d2d3d29 (talk) 18:24, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove a paragraph 

message: I think we should add this little detail when it comes to the RAL codes for the pattern.
https://forum.htka.hu/threads/hun-harci-eszkoezoek-uj-alcazo-festese.2425/page-9
The person arcas has posted on 2022. July. 29. the following:
Nem is értem, hogy eddig egy újságirónak sem jutott eszébe, hogy a eleresszen egy e-mailt a HM-nek, hogy a sok bemutatott szinváltozat közül végül melyik lesz az, amelyet a MH hivatalos mintájának tekinthetünk ill. hogy hivatalosan miért is ilyen nagy a szórás, ha már milliárdokat ölünk "High-Tech Force"-ra.
Hozzáteszem, Tata adta meg korábban -mondhatjuk hivatalosan- a Leo2A4-ek szinkódjait egyedül:
"A festésminta hivatalos, gyári színkódjai:
1. alapszín (40-50%) a NATO-zöld (RAL 6031);
2. mellékszín (20-25%) a barnásszürke (RAL 7013);
3. első kiegészítő szín (5-10%) az antracitszürke (RAL 7016);
4. második kiegészítő szín (5-10%) a bézs (RAL 1001)."
Briefly, he states he had shot an message to the HDF with question regarding the RAL codes for the leopards and supposedly responded with this.
We have received Gidrán's with the wrong colors, when the lynx was finally put on showcase it was using Rheinmetal's camouflage, etc. This is why it became a discussion and email sent.
I aswell seen a post older than this with the same RAL codes stated, i will try my best to find it again to cite source.
Whoever could provide some useful insight / cite source is more than welcome ^^ Shotya (talk) 04:53, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leopard 2A4HU camouflage pattern. 

message: Hello, I noticed that the article for Leopard 2 is marked as "Too long to read and navigate comfortably" earlier when I was reading through the article. I suggest we can take the "Variants" segment of the article and make it it's entirely own article, as this would cut down quite a huge chunk of the words on the page. Trashpanda115 (talk) 03:57, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I have gone ahead and created a quick draft article of what the Leopard 2 Variants page should look like. It can be found at Draft:List of Leopard 2 Variants. Please consider checking this draft out, and contributing a few necessary edits to it if you wish. As of the time of posting this reply, a few citations on the draft page are broken, and I do not know how to fix them. Trashpanda115 (talk) 23:53, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Splitting the variants section of the article to a separate article. 

message: Russia has captured some leopard 2s and from what I have seen of some of captured leopards they are in no condition for operation. Additinally why would Russia operate them as they have no spare parts for them. So i suggest removing them from the operators sections and into a separate one UnfairWoodPecker (talk) 02:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russia as operator