Talk:Greek diacritics

message: I've merged in the material from Polytonic Greek orthography including the "attention" template, which can possibly now be removed, unless anyone things that it still needs a lot more work. rossb 23:30, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've now taken the liberty of removing the "attention" template, not to say that this article is now finished, but I think it's not in too bad shape. rossb 05:47, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger

message: There was some confusion in the existing article between polytonic/monotonic and Katharevousa/Dhimotiki.  Both Katharevousa and Dhimotiki were written with polytonic.  Also, there was a quick comment on why monotonic was adopted (polytonic too difficult for students), but I don't think it belongs here.  If anything, they belong in a History section of the monotonic article, with some reference to the 1982 debates.--Macrakis 16:20, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Katharevousa and Dhimotiki

message: I see that the perispoméni is used in the comparison of the versions of "the Lord's prayer", but that elsewhere a tilde is used.  Any rationale for this?  ^^^^ oops! (little joke there..sorry...it's late...)  Tomer TALK 06:45, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
It is clumsy to use the polytonic template everywhere, so it is not being used consistently.  This means that the same character may be rendered with different fonts in different places.  I suppose this could be fixed by using the polytonic template everywhere (which would be horribly ugly and bulky), though I'd rather find a better technical solution. --Macrakis 03:59, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to expand on the above, different fonts display the perispoméni in different ways — some as a circumflex, some as a tilde. If no font is specified, some browsers will not display polytonic characters at all, hence the need to specify a font. The approved way of doing this in Wikipedia is to use the Polytonic template, but in the case of the Lord's Prayer it is done by specifying the font directly (converting this to use the template would be possible but tedious because of the layout). The Polytonic template has recently been altered, and now uses a different font to that specified for the Lord's Prayer. Depending on what browser you use, you may see things differently. rossb 04:33, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  consistency issue? 

message: Changing transliteration of eta from i to e or ē. Discussion?
Septentrionalis 16:26, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It all depends on whether you regard it as Ancient or Modern Greek, as you say in the article. And indeed if transliterate as Modern Greek then Bareia should logically be Varia, but this would obscure the etymology for those who don't know Modern Greek. rossb 16:42, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: The acute accent (as it appeared over the second 'i' in 'psili') was used to notate the modern pronunciation of the modern word; I think that the Alexandrian  nomenclature is 'psilon pneuma', not 'psili'.  The article now has 'e' with an acute, which ought to mean the modern 'e' with a stress accent.  Perhaps this is a typo for 'e' with a macron?  This stuff is always messy... it makes sense to use transliteration using e-macron etc. for classical, and to use transcription using i-acute etc. for modern, but what about contexts like this one where both are relevant?... --Macrakis 16:47, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The discrepancy between the spellings bugged me, so I standardized on Classical transliteration, as most direct. If anyone cares, go ahead and revert. Septentrionalis 23:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Transliteration

message: Certain computers (it appears to have nothing to do with choice of browser font) show Rho with rough breathing (#8172) as having a smooth breathing; other computers in the same cluster differ. Odd. Septentrionalis 17:40, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Rho

message: Someone named "Apollon Zinos" has left the following (perhaps well-meaning)graffito: "I am not aware of the existence of the following polytonic characters ὐ ὔ ὒ ὖ." He's got a point, does he not? Upsilons, like Rhos, never occur with smooth breathing marks in Classical and Koine Greek, correct? (All of this formulated as a question because my Classical Greek is very rusty, and I'm hoping some more proficient users can confirm this).--Jacopone 00:46, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And there is the possibility that someone may want to discuss Ionic sometime, which doesn't aspirate at all. This article is as much for typesetters as for Hellenists. Septentrionalis 18:52, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Upsilons with smooth breathings 

message: I know nothing about Greek, but by simple eye-crossing, I see that the word ὀφελήματα on the right hand side is missing the ι in οφειλήματα on the left hand side.  Is this an error? — Omegatron 00:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's incorrect, it should have the iota. I've corrected wikisource and will make the corrections here too. Vilĉjo (talk) 16:54, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Error in Greek 

message: I just noticed over in the Iliad article in the /* Major characters */ section that the names of the heroes are written in monotonic - something which strikes me as absurd, but something which I can do nothing about as I do not have the technical expertise to go in and put the polytonic forms in. Anyone willing to help? --5telios 15:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Characters of the Iliad

message: In the table of renderings of polytonic characters, all the capital letters "with circumflex" are missing. Many other entries are also missing. How come? Is it intentional? 
—Vivacissamamente 10:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing table entries

message: According to these statistics, 80% of the Internet browsers in use today are Microsoft IE.
Microsoft IE version 6 or earlier does not support Greek polytonic. Effectively, approximately 80% of Browser users and Wikipedia readers cannot see Greek polytonic unless properly tagged with {{polytonic... etc.
Therefore, most Wikipedia readers see the phrase "", if not properly tagged (i.e. Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι ουδὲν οἶδα) as:
:□ν ο□δα □τι ουδ□ν ο□δα
The solution to properly display Greek polytonic is either to use proper tags in Greek polytonic text or to upgrade to the latest browser version. --Odysses  (☜) 08:51, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally, I think we should use polytonic for all ancient Greek words; that browser problem is very serious, as I know too well.--Aldux 15:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have browser problems and you are using Microsoft IE, you might consider upgrading to IE 7. It fully supports Greek polytonic.--Odysses  (☜) 17:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Greek polytonic as seen by the 80% of Wikipedia readers

message: I reluctantly added an advocate link to this page that I deleted from Diacritics (Greek alphabet). There are two issues here, one political (the reform was allegedly introduced as a rider to an unrelated bill), the other cultural (the reform disrupts cultural continuity). Both views are POV. If at all, they should be presented in a NPOV fashion.  Andreas  (T) 20:38, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Politics 

message: What's the difference between these if they look the same and are used interchangeably? Also Penn U. defines it otherwise: "In polytonic Greek, tonos is a generic name for any accent mark."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.162.53.97 (talk) 21:55, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oxeia/tonos 

message: Please link Ionian to its proper article, possibly Ionia or Ionic Greek. Thank you. —Centrx→talk • 04:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguate: [[Ionian]] 

message: The introduction of the monotonic system late at night on Jan. 11, 1982 has been contested by some groups of being anti-constitutional on the grounds that it was a rider on a unrelated bill on admission of students to certain types of lyceums. This view is not only POV, but also it does not belong into the description of Greek diacritics because this article is not about politics.  Andreas  (T) 20:23, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vote in Greek parliament 

message: From Smyth:
:155.  The ancients regarded the grave originally as belonging to every syllable not accented with the acute or circumflex; and some Mss. show this in practice, e.g. πὰγκρὰτής. Later it was restricted to its use as a substitute for a final acute.
This is evidence that the grave accent represented no special pitch (perhaps mid pitch, represented by a macron in IPA?), rather than falling or low pitch as this article says. Does other evidence support the view in the article? Erutuon (talk) 21:32, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pitch of grave accent 

message: I have proposed a different ordering for the Greek polytonic characters in the insert box below the edit box on the talk page of WikiProject Greece.  --Lambiam 04:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Order of polytonic characters 

message: I had reworded the explanation of aspiration to make it less opinionated. But Cassowary perceives it as still implicitly criticizing the traditional terminology and therefore removed it. Because the terminological difference is notable, I intend to restore it, but reword it to make it even more neutral. — Eru·tuon 15:10, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aspiration 

message: The section on Greek uncial is phrased poorly and I am not sure what it is trying to say. In the history of the latin alphabet, there is a figure (:File:Evolution_of_minuscule.svg) with Greek uncial if that is of any help. --Squidonius (talk) 22:21, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gereek uncial 

message: re  by Vilcxjo: Now it is a mess again for me. I have WinXP and Firefox.
But in general: a combining character needs a character to combine with. That is how it works. So I added a space (nbsp). So I suggest to accept my edit as an improvement, and research your own presentation. -DePiep (talk) 00:38, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't responsible for the previous presentation, but it looked just fine - specifically, all the diacritics lined up vertically. Your edit resulted in those which had a nbsp being offset to the right of those which didn't. I'm mystified by your comment, as none of the characters in those tables are defined by Unicode as "combining characters" – they are all spacing characters. Which leads me to suppose that perhaps Firefox is doing the rendering wrongly. Vilĉjo (talk) 22:41, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right. Over at WP:Village pump I discussed and learned. -DePiep (talk) 23:14, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Combining character

message: These are included in the Beta Code and here but there is no explanation for what they're supposed to do. — LlywelynII 03:51, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Macron and breve

message: In the beginning of the article it says: "circumflex ( ῀ )". Clearly, one part of the juxtaposition must be wrong. I don't know which one. 157.193.63.115 (talk) 09:36, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The tilde began as a variant of the circumflex, and appears in its place in some Greek fonts. The name of the latter is a Latin calque of the Greek περισπωμένη, and is the name preferred by classicists. •ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ• 13:00, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Circumflex or tilde?

message: There are letters with macron and breve: Ᾱᾱ Ῑῑ Ῡῡ Ᾰᾰ Ῐῐ Ῠῠ.
Are there also combinations like macron + acut etc.? -07:47, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Regrettably there are no Unicode characters for Greek letters with both macrons and other accents, or breves and other accents. Adding those would approximately triple the number of Greek vowel characters, and they didn't do it. — Eru·tuon 16:05, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Computer encoding / diacritics

message: Does anyone have the time and knowledge to write something about it?
Aristarchus of Samothrace and other ancient greek Philologists and their textcritical signs.
I have found some sources, see:
Brill's Companion to Ancient Greek Scholarship, 2015 (2 Vols.) pp. 549-562 and The ambiguity of signs: critical σημεῖα from Zenodotus to Origen Author: Francesca Schironi
There are also "pictures" of these signs in this book.
Informationskampagne (talk) 14:29, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Textcritical signs of Aristarchus of Samothrace and other ancient greek writers and Philologists 

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thread_title:  External links modified