Talk:African-American English/Archive 2

message: Now that deeceevoice has created a beautiful summary of the sociological aspects of AAVE, let's see if we can address the phonological differences.  We do need to note that not all differences are universal to all variants of AAVE - but that many are common, and considered distinctive to the dialect by SAE speakers.  I also think, for consistency's sake, we should use SAMPA transcription, since it's accessible on a US-english keyboard.
Main differences (note that "_" stands for "any vowel" and "#" is "word boundary"):
* SAE /#T_/ --> AAVE [#t_]; SAE /_T_/ --> AAVE [_f_]; and SAE /_T#/ --> AAVE [_f#] (sometimes [_t#] ) 
* SAE /#D_/ --> AAVE [#d_]; SAE /_D_/ --> AAVE [_v_]; and SAE /_D#/ --> AAVE [_v#] 
* SAE /r_/ --> AAVE [r_]; SAE /r/ --> deleted elsewhere
* SAE /aj/ --> AAVE [a:] and SAE [ej] (phonemically /e/) --> AAVE /e:/
* Question : is the /Q/ vs. /A/ distinction preserved, or is it merged as in Midwestern US dialects of English?  EG: /nQt/ "naught" vs. /nAt/ "not".
That's a start, at any rate.  If I get a chance, I may do some research via google.  pgdudda 15:47, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Phonology (pronunciation)

message: A section on pronunciation.  Mention of the use of "axe" instead of "ask" (also rooted in W. Africa?).  And observation of the subversion of language to redefine negatives; language as weapon/tool.  And a section on vocabulary -- because there is, indeed, a separate vocabulary in the African-American community for any number of things, that most white folks don't have a clue about.  For info on pronunciation and vocabulary, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:African_American_Vernacular_English&action=edit  deeceevoice 05:43, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops.  Dunno how that happened.  Will hunt up the link when I have more time.deeceevoice 22:29, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: For my money, "ask" > "axe" is more likely to be of anglophone than African origin -- the variation in this word goes back to Anglo-Saxon, when the word (usually ascian) could also be found as axian. --Marnen Laibow-Koser (talk) 20:08, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Note on necessary additions

message: Important, I think, because AAVE has contributed so many slang expressions to American English.  Also, if one clicks the "slang" link on the AAVE page, one is directed to a "slang" page, but which has nothing terribly specific on African American slang -- just an "African American slang" link at the bottom of the page which -- guess what? -- directs one right back to AAVE.  Slang expressions traceable to Africa:  cool, hip, hep, hep cat, dig, etc. deeceevoice 22:39, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: A Section on Slang

message: e.g.:  banjo, tote, okra, goober, gumbo, hip/hep, dig, cat/hepcat, etc.
e.g.:  kicks, diss, kitchen, buckra, honky, axe, grip, roach-in-the-corner killers, etc. deeceevoice 14:52, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: A Section on Africanisms from AAVE in mainstream usage, a section on AAVE vocabulary

message: Is it true that multiple negation (beyond simple double negation) can be (is often?) used for emphasis in AAVE?  A la the stereotyped "Don't nobody know nuthin'"...  Don't want to insert this into the article if it isn't true.  pgdudda 01:29, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this emphasis or just ordinary 'negation agreement'? --Marnen Laibow-Koser (talk) 20:12, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Question about negation

message: *" African-American creoles that have undergone the least interference over the last few centuries (e.g., Saramaccan) show evidence of Portuguese features and vocabulary."
I'm certainly no authority on this, but it was always my understanding that Saramaccan was spoken in the Caribbean and South America (which is why I added "portions of the New World").  If my understanding is correct (and it very well may not be), then I think it's misleading to characterize it as an "African-American creole." deeceevoice 21:30, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Deleted (tentatively) reference to Saramaccan and added a sentence about a AAVE separate vocabulary to "Lexicon"

message: :Realization of final ng [ŋ], the velar nasal, as the alveolar nasal [n] in function morphemes like -ing, e.g. "tripping" as "trippin". This change does not occur in content morphemes, that is sing is sing [sɪŋ] and not sin [sɪn], but singing is singin [sɪŋɪn].
I am not aware of any dialect of English where this phenomenon cannot be observed in casual conversation. I don't think it's particular to AAVE. — Ливай | ☺ 22:10, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "-ing" to "-in"

message: Someone's posted this absolutely awful POV piece (originally a copyvio). Could you take a look at it and merge what's useful to AAVE? Gazpacho 23:15, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoever created that article has also been pasting it into this article.  Although it is a well researched and articulate opinion essay, it is not appropriate for Wikipedia.  I have already included some of the sources they cite into the "further reading" section.  So it's good for deletion. AEuSoes1 01:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[The Truth About Ebonics]]

message: Someone's posted this absolutely awful POV piece (originally a copyvio). Could you take a look at it and merge what's useful to AAVE? Gazpacho 23:15, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[The Truth About Ebonics]]

message: "Phonics"? Really? This is surprising. Any evidence for this? (asks User:Hoary)
*Really. First off, one of the references on this page is a book named "Suite for Ebony and Phonics". As for sources which explain better, the source already listed in this article (Ebonics Notes and Discussion) says, "Ebonics derives its form from ebony (black) and phonics (sound, the study of sound)". I'm not sure why it would be surprising that ebonics is a portmanteau but I hope this is sufficient evidence for you. Vicarious 06:18, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ebony phonics 

message: I've always understood ebonics to be the "language of the streets". Of course, not everyone "on the street" uses it, even among African Americans. Since ebonics, like most street languages, is fraught with mispronunciations, slang, and grammatical errors, it should be regarded as of limited practical use, and certainly not to be considered  equal to Standard American English. .... comment added at 21:25, 22 March 2006 by Jlujan69
:(i) Please sign your comments here; you do this by adding ~~~~ to the end. (ii) Yes, Ebonics is of limited practical use. So is Standard American English, which gets blank looks when spoken in most places in the nation where I happen to live. Ebonics is indeed of more limited practical use than standard AE. So? (iii) Like any dialect, Ebonics does not normally have grammatical errors. (Your belief that it has suggests that you haven't digested the article.) It does indeed have grammatical (morphophonological) errors in terms of SAE, in the same way that SAE has simplifications in terms of Ebonics. (iv) As for mispronunciations, yes, Ebonics is riddled with them in terms of SAE, just as SAE is riddled with them in terms of Ebonics (or Danish or whatever).  (v) Most lects of any language are plenty of slang (or, if you somehow perceive this as a threat, are "fraught with" slang); it's hardly surprising that Ebonics is too. -- Hoary 01:01, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "ebonics" 

message: it seems rather sugary and a bit of a stretch to refer to ebonics, as it is almost always called, "african american vernacular english", which i don't think i have ever heard in my life. who else feels maybe this article should me moved to "ebonics"? it's not an offensive term. Joeyramoney 21:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, "Ebonics" is not an offensive term. Yes, "Ebonics" may have appeared more often in the popular press. Yes, "Ebonics" has been used by linguists as well as educators, politicians and journalists (and right-wing blowhards, etc.). However, the article is primarily about linguistics rather than education or politics; and in linguistics "Ebonics" is not a widely used term; it's much less common than AAVE (typically spelled out the first time, abbreviated thereafter). It might be a good idea to split this article into (1) "African American Vernacular English", a purely descriptive article devoid of any mention of education or politics (the same sort of article that's provided for, say, Baltimorese), and (2) "The Ebonics debate", an article about all the politicking. (I don't say it would be a good idea; just that it doesn't obviously seem a bad idea.) But retitling a single article "Ebonics" seems a bad idea. (And I've a hunch that it would prompt yet more cracker vandalism.) -- Hoary 00:38, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fully agree with Hoary. The term "Ebonics" reached its current status in popular consciousness because of the Oakland School Board gaffe.  AAVE is the more sterile term, but that's a Good Thing; people don't have nearly as many misguided opinions, for better or for worse, about AAVE than they do about Ebonics. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 08:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think sugar-coating the name will do exactly that. It's like the way we have "Tiananmen Square Protests" instead of "Tiananmen Square Massacre." Of course some people are going to immediately have a negative perception of the article because it's using an awkward term not in common usage for the sake of political correctness. Liu Bei 16:46, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  move to "ebonics" 

message: How is the simple past and simple future tenses formed? -- Beland 13:12, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Simple tenses 

message: Maybe I overlooked it in the article, but I didn't see mention of -ing to -ang, as in: thing> thang; singin>sangin; ring>rang; and so on. Also, what about adding more slang words most often used in AAVE: yack (>cognac); hoodrat; ghettobird; and so on. James 007 10:45, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Slang is not the same as a dialect; any of those words could be employed in Standard English, and are no means universal to all, or even most AAVE-speakers. (I doubt many, say, rural Texans employ “ghetto bird” with any sort of frequency.) Wiki Wikardo 04:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  -Ing ---> -Ang 

message: Wasn't the first law suit relating to Ebonics (AAVE) filed against the Ann Arbor Public Schools. Oakland Keeps being mentioned, I know it was a more substantial situation but come on. Want info so maybe include in A2 article. Also am I wrong that Ebonics does not meet the definition of a dialect? Just asking can see this is a topic with a lot of emotions involved and do not want to be offensive to anyone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by  (talk • contribs) 
There is no universally agreed upon definition of dialect.  Every single language that anyone speaks is some kind of dialect, so the question is not whether something is a dialect or not, but whether two language varieties are each a dialect of the same language, or whether they are two entirely different languages (or I guess whether they aren't different enough to be two dialects, and are actually the same dialect of the same language).  The general rule-of-thumb among linguists is that two dialects of a language will be mutually intelligable (i.e. the speakers are generally able to understand eachother), whereas speakers of two different languages will not.  To be separate dialects, there need to be some kind of lexical (words) or syntactical (grammar) differences.  African American English and Standard American English have lexical and syntactical differences, and are mutually intelligable.  They'd both be considered dialects of English.  So yes, 'Ebonics' qualifies as a dialect.  Mahern 20:43, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No linguist worth his salt would ever seriously use the word "corruption" when talking about the speech of a community.  A major point that all linguists make is that no way of speaking is better than another.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 22:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Question?

message: Who has deemed it necessary to delete large portions of the discussion dialogue? And what justification is being given for this? It is the ongoing discussion that ensues between writers that allows the article to be an unbiased factual piece of information. If those who simply question the writing are silenced and their posts deleted, then what purpose is there in claiming a non-POV and objective article? This is not a dictatorship, and those who do not agree are not to be "wiped" from the discussion board. This is an obvious deviation from prescribed guidlines set forth by Wikipedia. Coldbourne 22:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Yet Another Question

message: Most speakers of AAVE are bidialectal, since they use Standard American English to varying degrees as well as AAVE. Generally speaking, the degree of exclusive use of AAVE decreases with the rise in socioeconomic status, although almost all speakers of AAVE at all socioeconomic levels readily understand Standard American English. Most blacks, regardless of socioeconomic status, educational background, or geographic region, use some form of AAVE to various degrees in informal and intra-ethnic communication (this selection of variety according to social context is called code switching). 
Let's get some numbers (stats) before we assume that "most" Blacks speak a secret language when no one else is around. The sentence in bold makes me think Blacks devolve when they're not being monitored. —Preceding unsigned comment added by  (talk • contribs) 
:I agree that should be cited, but "speak a secret language when no one else is around" is not at all what the quoted bit says. Tuf-Kat 01:33, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intra ethnic 

message: Is "Jive" really a synonym for AAVE?  I'd thought it properly referred to a slang subset of it.--Pharos 23:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: hi, not sure if this has already been addressed but I think saying "jive" is a synonym of AAVE is prob on the order of saying, say, yiddish and hebrew are synonymous. or "native" is the same as all the languages spoken on papua new guinea. ok, that's over the top. airplane was a great flick, to the extent that.. bye. Kɔffeedrinksyou 17:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: i think "colloquially known as" is cool. izl. Kɔffeedrinksyou 04:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

text: hopefully if people call some speech jive, they mean one example, and don't refer to the entire code as cajoling/misleading. yeah. Kɔffeedrinksyou 04:28, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Jive" a synonym?