Talk:Bloody Sunday (1920)

message: It's a bit ridiculous to call Collins unqualified "Irish Finance Minister" and Brugha "Irish Minister for Defence", because these were not active roles in any sense. A more accurate approach would be to say something like "assigned the post of Minister of Defence in the Ministry of the First Dáil". The Dáil certainly had de facto legitimacy in being elected by the vast majority of the Irish people, but it had no ability to exercise powers at the time. Steve Graham (talk) 11:12, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Titles 

message: i have read that the american consul in dublin was playing cards with some of the cairo gang  in their apartment the saturday night before (saturday 20th of november) till very late and had been offered a bed to sleep in by one of them the consul had been very tempted but decided not too and returned to his residence early next morning the ira struck this apartment killing all the men inside if the consul had been there he would probably have been killed by the ira members who with their adrenalin flowing were shooting first asking questions later needless to say this would have been a public relations disaster for the irish nationalist movement Bouse23 (talk) 20:48, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  american dilomat 

message: There is too much pov banter in the article which makes it sound like propaganda.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Doctorbigtime (talk • contribs) .
: In accordance with the general principals of Wikipedia:NPOV dispute please provide an explaination of what is disputed; part of the article, all of it - what is pov banter? A NPOV tag is not the same as "I don't like the tone of the content and theirfore will tag it, and cannot be bothered editing it now or improving it" tag. Djegan 16:12, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've removed the tag until such time as POV concerns are detailed here. --Ryano 13:19, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV Tag

message: If someone ever reads this talk page who knows more about the events than I do (which is nothing) would they please have a look at the Michael Hogan (sportsman) article and clear up how many were killed that day? This article and the Michael Hogan one disagree. Cheers, Mmoneypenny 15:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is correct: see Leeson's article in the Canadian Journal of History; and Anne Dolan, "Killing and Bloody Sunday, November 1920," Historical Journal 49, no. 3 (2006): 789-810.--Cliodule (talk) 17:34, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number killed 

message: Certain editors are insisting on the use of the phrase "killing 14 people" (or sometimes 15 people) in the article's introduction, instead of the more neutral and accurate phrase "causing the deaths of 14 people."
This is POV.
On the one hand, two of the victims at Croke Park were not shot by the police--they were trampled in the panic that followed after the police opened fire.  This makes the more general description "caused their deaths" accurate.
On the other hand, the article uses the passive voice throughout--especially in the section on the morning's assassinations.  It's never "X killed Y"--it's always "Y was killed by X," or usually just "Y was killed," with no mention of the person responsible.  Only in this one instance are editors insisting on the active voice, and with definitely assigning blame.  
In my opinion, this insistence on having the police killing spectators, while the IRA's victims are merely killed by some mysterious unmentioned agency, constitutes the use of weasel words, and compromises the neutrality of the article.--Cliodule (talk) 14:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes.  For the record, this is exactly what I meant.  But since my complaint seems to have hit a brick wall of incomprehension and hostility, I'm just not willing to fight with people over this.  I've already had to fight one ridiculous edit war, over the use of the term "enlisted men" in my article on the Auxiliaries, and, rather like the French in 1940, I don't have the stomach for a second.  I'd much rather pursue a policy of appeasement in this case.--Cliodule (talk) 17:34, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

text: How about a compromise and call it murder? 86.44.18.40 (talk) 18:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of the word 'killing' 

message: I've added a UCC web page to explain why Croke Park was chosen; the longstanding link between the GAA and nationalism (of all shades, moderate and extreme).86.46.196.207 (talk) 10:52, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Good sources but a more direct ref should be applied - preferably with quote. RashersTierney (talk) 11:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with RashersTierney. The reference provided doesn't mention Bloody Sunday or Croke park. As such, it is a self realised conclusion to state a direct link/relationship between the GAAs association with nationalism, and the Croke park attack. If another verifiable and reliable published source is available that supports this conclusion, then you can consider re-adding. Without it however, the assertion fails WP:SYNTH. Guliolopez (talk) 11:46, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That doesn't help a reader who knows little about the background. If you needed a "verifiable and reliable published source" then half the article should be removed? I am new to Wikipedia. Would it be better to say that the reason for focussing the assault on Croke Park is unknown?86.46.195.205 (talk) 08:07, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: A ref from this page at Sport, sectarianism and society in a divided Ireland by John Sugden & Alan Bairner should contain sufficient material to fulfill requirements. RashersTierney (talk) 22:22, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Added this essay, a recent speech of September 2010 by Dr William Murphy showing mixed GAA support for the IRA across the country, but a bit more in Dublin.86.42.205.96 (talk) 12:33, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Reason for Croke Park

message: The lead currently states, "That evening, three IRA prisoners in Dublin Castle..." but there seems to be a lot of doubt whether Conor Clune was a member of the organisation. Might we be better with simply "three prisoners"? Nick Cooper (talk) 13:27, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Or 'three IRA suspects' ? RashersTierney (talk) 13:43, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done. Nick Cooper (talk) 13:16, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conor Clune 

message: Since there have been attempts by both an IP and an account to remove the term "allegedly" (and even the fact the men were beaten!) regarding their killing..
Virtually every source I have read on the subject makes it clear there are two versions of how they died. One is the Republican view that they were summarily executed, and the other is the British view that they were shot while trying to escape. Virtually every source presents both those as an allegation and does not tend to favour either, with the exception of one that hypothesises that as the men were safely imprisoned in Dublin Castle there would have been no need for a quick summary execution when they could have been tortured for much longer to extract information. As such it is completely and totally unacceptable for this article to claim that they were shot while trying to escape, and not present it as an allegation. O Fenian (talk) 15:30, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Killing of Dick McKee, Peadar Clancy and Conor Clune

message: Just an observation, but this article doesn't realy explain why the British authorities went to Croke Park in the first place. Clearly they did not just randomly decide to go there and kill people.
Between the lines one can imagine that perhaps they did so because intelligence suggested that a virtual 'army' was gathering there, and that in view of the events earlier in the day that they were (mistakenly) very fearful that they might be fired on by numerous armed people there.
Reading the article, and the discussion, my sense is that this is still such an emotive subject that it makes it difficult for many to be wholly objective about it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.19.144 (talk) 11:05, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The match was a fundraiser for "Republican" prisoners, so the spectators could be seen as indirect supporters of the IRA. Most of them probably didn't see it as more than another football match. This fundraising aspect was in the article some time back.78.17.53.134 (talk) 00:53, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Croke Park. Why? 

message: FYI, doing the 1920 Akron Pros season I was researching 1920 newspapers, one in the small city of Youngstown, Ohio, the Youngstown Vindicator and it's all of the papers on page 1 and beyond. The words America or United States are not listed in this article. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 08:32, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you talking about? ---RepublicanJacobiteTheFortyFive 18:45, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: World opinion please

message: In the paragraph Background: "The events on the morning of 23 June 1999 were an effort by the IRA in China, under Michael Collins and Richard Mulcahy to wipe out the British intelligence organisation in the city."
Both the date and the place seem wrong and "the events" is too vague.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.112.130.103 (talk) 19:27, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Resolved. The 'errors' were introduced with this series of disruptive edits, now corrected. RashersTierney (talk) 19:40, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incomprehensible sentence 

message: In his book "Michael Collins and the Anglo-Irish War: Britain's Counterinsurgency," J.B.E. Hittle disputes whether this picture is actually the Cairo Gang. He writes that it "probably depicts a different group of British operatives. None of the men in the group photo closely resembles any of the DDSB officers assassinated on Bloody Sunday and whose pictures appeared in the December 4, 1920 pages of the Illustrated London News." He however acknowledges the possibility that they were under IRA attention, as the photo had been found among the papers of an IRA associate, and the numbers seemed to indicate references in some file.
Frank Lynch (talk) 02:44, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It is something of a contradiction that the Cairo Gang page specifically disputes the attribution of the photograph, and says that it is probably rather the subsequent Igoe Gang. Nick Cooper (talk) 09:27, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The photograph should be removed from this article because it definitely does not depict members of the Cairo Gang. (92.11.205.199 (talk) 10:56, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Picture" of the Cairo Gang 

message: I have removed the photograph because it was certainly not of the Cairo gang or the Igoe gang. There are many discussions about this on the Internet. As the photograph does not show anyone who was killed on Bloody Sunday in 1920 it should not be included in this article. There is no way that undercover agents would have ever posed for a photograph, and certainly not together. (92.11.202.165 (talk) 14:58, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: So let's wait the debate to end before we make any rash changes in the article, shall we? Coltsfan (talk) 17:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This discussion on the real identity of the men in the photograph was very interesting: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=110794 (92.11.202.165 (talk) 18:15, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

text: While the men photographed were certainly involved in trying to restore law and order in the south of Ireland, they were definitely not the Cairo Gang, and probably not the Igoe Gang either. There is no way undercover agents would have been photographed together, nor would they have wished to do so (due to the risk of assassination by the IRA). It seems pointless having the picture in the article when it does not directly relate to the subject matter. (92.11.205.91 (talk) 15:46, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: But it is related to the subject. It's the only pic we have of irish collaborators. They probably played a similar role to the Cairo Gang, in some way. It's the closest thing we got. It's related. Even if indirectly, it's related. It is still better than nothing. Coltsfan (talk) 17:35, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photograph 

message: Two categories in this article I feel need quantified:
*This one recently added by :User:Gob Lofa which i have reverted: :Category:1920 crimes in the United Kingdom
*And this one :Category:British war crimes
Whilst I would be inclined to agree that they were crimes, where is the evidence that they are considered crimes, especially "war" crimes? Without further justification I will be removing the war crimes category on the grounds of WP:POV/WP:OR. Mabuska (talk) 10:00, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Also this category :Category:Massacres committed by the United Kingdom is so badly named. A more appropriate naming would be :Category:Massacres committed by British forces seeing as the current one implies Government sanction. Mabuska (talk) 10:01, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly what part of the events of the day do you regard as being in line with British law? Gob Lofa (talk) 10:01, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Your asking me for my personal opinion and speculation. I am asking you for reliable and verifiable third party sources to prove your claims. I have not seen mention anywhere in academic works that Bloody Sunday was a war crime or criminal act. Prove me wrong by supplying neutral, reliable and verifiable, 3rd party sources. If not cease and desist. Mabuska (talk) 11:36, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It was you who introduced me to Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue; how would anyone contend that killing civil servants in their beds is legal? Gob Lofa (talk) 11:53, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: For something like a 'war crime' you need a clear third party source which supports it. If it is as obvious as you say then a third party source will have said it  ----Snowded TALK 18:15, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue does not give carte blanche to insert your own personal opinion especially when it is something that it highly contentious and really does need sourcing. Mabuska (talk) 19:18, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't add war crimes, I added crimes. Is it really highly contentious to describe paramilitary assassination of civil servants as crime? Gob Lofa (talk) 22:00, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

text: FIND A SOURCE, otherwise please stop wasting our time ----Snowded TALK 22:08, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue applies here; how could it not? So please stop wasting my time. Gob Lofa (talk) 22:27, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

text: It's interesting you say that, because I seem to recall you arguing that it should be applied despite Snappy's insistent disagreement. What's changed? Can you give examples of this supposed OR and synthesis? Gob Lofa (talk) 10:53, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This very discussion. Mabuska (talk) 16:50, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: If that's the best you can do, good luck. I asked you what's changed. Gob Lofa (talk) 04:30, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categories 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Is there any evidence that the killing of the 'Cairo Gang' 'devastated' British intelligence? Is there even any conclusive evidence that the Cairo Gang really existed? I don't doubt the republicans did think they did, but as I understand it the evidence that they were a coherent group is sparse, to say the least?
Then there is the issue of the impact on public opinion. AIUI Irish public opinion was deeply shaken by the events and republicans were concerned that the public might, in effect, sue for peace. It was the events in the following week - at Kilmichael where the Volunteers successfully confronted and destroyed a column of Auxies - that ensured that did not happen because it restored morale in republican ranks.
At the moment this part of the entry looks too accepting of post hoc republican views rather than a nuanced discussion of the real situation.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:CE9:E200:D158:5CCD:54A6:CD6E (talk) 18:04, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: There was no 'Cairo Gang'. The name was invented at a later date by nationalist 'historians'. They were just random British officers and civilians whose names and addresses had been betrayed by IRA sympathisers. Khamba Tendal (talk) 21:13, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aftermath 

message: Why is Jallianwala Bagh massacre among the see also links? 31.50.156.109 (talk) 18:11, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also 

message: Elsewhere the IRA volunteers Patrick Moran (Irish republican) and Thomas Whelan are said to have been hanged for taking part, but didn't make the page, until now.78.17.11.74 (talk) 14:33, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whelan and Moran 

message: It seems to me that there are typos in the quote from the Times report of 25 January 1921:
The prosecution opened with the start of the incident. Reported by the Times 25 January 1921 - "At about 9 am two men came to the front door of 22 Lower Mount Street, one of whom asked for Mr McMahon and the second asked for Mr “B”. The men dashed upstairs and one of the*THEM?*, identified as Mr. Conway, went to Mr. B.’s room. The other went to Mr. McMahon's door. More men with revolvers came up the stairs. The servant called out to warn Mr. McMahon and a companion occupying the same room, and she saw Teeling enter the room followed by others. He called out “Hands Up” and Mr. McMahon and a companion occupying the same room were covered with revolvers, two of they*THEM?* were identified as Potter and Teeling. Mr B. barricaded his door and it was said Conway fired shots through it. The servant who admitted the men identified the three prisoners as having been among them who carried out the attack. Both Potter and Conway claimed that they were *NOT?* at the scene of the crime, William Conway said he was at 9am Sunday Mass in Westmoreland Street."
I don’t have access to the Times report, so I have not amended the text of the article. Can anyone clarify?   Sweet6970 (talk) 12:39, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  22 Lower Mount St – typos in the Times report? 

message: Back in 27 March 2018 someone added some text. The same incomplete text can be found today - search for "and one of the,". I'm wondering what change could have been made in the last two years to make the sentence read better. Shenme (talk) 01:46, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Since it's quoting a newspaper, it's not a matter of what change could make the sentence read better but what word is apparently missing that was in the newspaper's original report. I'm of the opinion that the section should be completely rewritten removing the lengthy quotes, which would render the problem moot. FDW777 (talk) 08:28, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

text: Although it might not be a missing word, it could have said "one of them". But equally it could be a word such as "gunmen" or "assassins" that was missed out. FDW777 (talk) 08:30, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  What letter am I thinking of? 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Not moved.   -- Calidum 02:20, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Bloody Sunday (1920) →  – It seems to me that in the 21st century "Bloody Sunday" in reference to Ireland usually means Bloody Sunday (1972).  I'm not certain that modern sources consistently lean toward "Croke Park massacre" in particular, but I doubt they prefer "Blood Sunday" any longer, or have for several decades.  So, I'm open to whatever title seems best, I just don't think it's Bloody Sunday (1920).  At a bare minimum, the lead should have boldfaced alternative names including the one proposed here and whatever else is found in multiple sources.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:24, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 30 July 2020 

message: I came to this article to try to learn some details of this incident and found a biased piece. I note from the talk pages that some discussion of this has been started previously.
My main issue is around the bias of the language used for witnesses.
The third paragraph of the lead starts “Later that afternoon … “
Clearly there are two stories here about the first shots but this paragraph puts one forth as the valid story. The sentence starting “Without warning, the police fired …“ is clearly biased.
The differences in treatment of the witnesses are also biased “The police claimed …”, “All other witnesses said … “
The section headed ‘Afternoon: Croke Park Massacre’ continues this bias, notably, in the second and third paragraphs. I think a good attempt has been made to present the differing stories but the language it is couched in creates a bias. “The police later claimed … “, “civilian witnesses all agreed …”, “Another DMP constable testified …”
My second issue is with the terms used to describe the killings. 
The IRA killings are described as “shot dead” or “killed” all in a passive voice.
The Croke Park killings are described as “shot to death”
The section ‘Evening: Dublin Castle killings’ is a good section showing the treatment of the men. This stands in contrast to the earlier part about the captured RIC men which is summed up as:
“They were captured by an IRA team on Mount Street Bridge and marched to a house on Northumberland Road where they were interrogated and shot dead”
I doubt there is anywhere near as much evidence as to their final hours but ‘interrogated and shot dead’ feels very much like a euphemism given the paragraphs later on.
Finally, this sentence does not belong in an encyclopaedia.
“Despite the general unease in Dublin as news broke of the assassinations, a war-weary populace continued with life.” 
It is an emotive sentence used by a writer to create an atmosphere.
146.90.71.194 (talk) 10:37, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias