Talk:Illegitimacy

message: In Norwegian dictionaries the origin of the word bastard is said to be an old Norse word, bastarðr, meaning son of a mistress (frille) (See dictionary entry here). I find that a bit more plausible than child of a packsaddle, but I don't really know enough about the subject to edit the article here. Any thoughts? --84.49.162.245 14:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Child of a packsaddle? 

message: I undid this edit, but am wondering if I acted too hastily. Can someone check the changes? My reasoning was that if the original interwiki pages still exist, this is less likely a correct change, but I could be wrong. Thanks. Xiner (talk, email) 14:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the interwiki links because the articles were more relevant. The articles Bastard on nn and no deals with the term bastard itself, whereas the articles nn:Fødd utanfor ekteskap og no:Utenekteskapelige barn (both translates into children born outside of marriage) deals with the subject of illegitimate children. --84.49.162.245 15:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Next time, I'll talk on the talk page before reverting. Now that there's undo, edits can be reversed anytime. Sorry about that. Xiner (talk, email) 15:13, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please check my edit. 

message: The concepts of legitimacy ("lawfullness") and ill- apply to a wide range of inherited statuses, and today are often used in politics (e.g. questions about the "legitimate government" of a country).  Dawud
:Also note the disambiguation page Legitimacy. I have suggested a merge with Legitimacy (law). – gpvos (talk) 13:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Illegitimacy" broader than bastardy

message: The pages overlap significantly. Also, I think it's better if Illegitimacy became a redirect to the disambiguation page Legitimacy after the merge (see previous comment by Dawud). – gpvos (talk) 13:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the merge.  However i think it should undergo a rewrite, with SOME verifiability at the same time.  I suggest that you put the merge request through to an admin.  Perhaps we can get more people to contribute to this discussion as well. businessman332211 14:53, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge with [[Legitimacy (law)]]

message: The article seems to have some POV problems, citation problems, and weasel words. Examples:
*Even now, law in many societies has denied "illegitimate" persons the same rights of inheritance as "legitimate" ones, and in some, even the same civil rights.
*Nevertheless, the late-20th-century demise, in Western culture, of the concept of "illegitimacy" came too late to relieve the contemporaneous stigma once suffered by such creative individuals, born before the 20th century, as Leone Battista Alberti, Leonardo da Vinci, Erasmus of Rotterdam, d'Alembert, Alexander Hamilton, Sarah Bernhardt, T.E. Lawrence or Stefan Banach.
*Recently, some people in the United States have taken to stigmatizing the parents, rather than the child, by labeling the parents as "Bastard Parents," because it is the parents who are ultimately responsible for the actions that caused an out-of-wedlock pregnancy.
*History shows striking examples of prominent persons of "illegitimate" birth. Often they seem to have been driven to excel in their fields of endeavor in part by a desire to overcome the social disadvantage that, in their time, attached to illegitimacy.
::Gront 03:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tone/Style of Article

message: I deleted the 'bastard' section, since I felt it read too much like a dictionary. If I was wrong, feel free to revert my edit and leave a message on my talk page. --Umalee 20:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted Bastard Section 

message: I note that this section has been deleted with the suggestion that it was soapboxing. The deleted section can be seen in the page history here and here.
I support the removal of these edits in their current form but I don't think they are soapboxing and I do think they raise issues that could appropriately be included in this article. A discussion of modern attitudes towards illegitimacy and any potential re-emergence of societal (if not legal) discrimination in the US would be an interesting topic.
In considering the above, there are issues with reliable sources and with giving undue weight to fringe views. For example, I doubt that the comments by Judge Miller will have any impact on either societal attitudes or illegitimacy laws. The same with the blog comments, which were not widespread or coherent enough to make an impact. By themselves, these references are not sufficient to claim that there is a re-emergence of a negative societal attitude. Let's see if we can dig up some more mainstream coverage.
There is also a synthesis issue with claiming that because lawyers seeking clemency say their client is from a 'good family', this automatically creates a stigma for those 'born out of wedlock'. 'Good family' in this context might mean law-abiding, church-going, charitable etc. A more relevant point might be attempts by plaintiffs to itnroduce illegitimacy as a grounds for turning jury sympathies away from a defendant, if any such sources could be found.
Any other views? I think there's something here we can work together on if there's any interest.  Euryalus (talk) 22:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Re-emergence of bigotry" section

message: Every day in the US, defense attorneys will parade young defendants in front of a judge and ask for some kind of clemency noting "this is a kid from a good family..." That such pejorative corollaries are an everyday part of a modern "justice" system suggests that non-Bastardy continues to be weighed by the courts as a mitigating factor at least.
:Interesting theory.  The inverse could also be hypothesized however, that young people who come from negative backgrounds are granted clemency based on their lack of opportunities. This is all interesting theorizing, however Wikipedia is not a place for original research.  If you want to discuss this further please move it to a blog or forum.  Also, in the future, please sign your comments with four tildes. [] CelticLabyrinth (talk) 10:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Continuing Discrimination in the US Justice System