Talk:Attack on Fatima's house

message: The hadith narratives do not give its Sanad (chain of narrators from the event to the writer) of book. It should write this. Furthermore there should be told that weather its chain is authentic which amounts to the reliability of narrative. 
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles
Smatrah (talk) 12:04, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Smatrah There is a contradiction between your edit summary and content in the talk page. Now, what is the problem, original research or a chain of narrators? I propose you that read the Wikipedia:or. All the contents that you deleted, have RS. I warn you for removing to contents with RS. About chaining of narrators, this is wikipedia not Biographical evaluation class, the validity of narrators determine by RS that all removed quotations have them.M1nhm (talk) 14:02, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is original research to carefully select some hadiths from a primary source (see MOS:ISLAMOR). Besides, al-Mas'udi is known to be a Shia' not Sunni (read his article). Mistakes such as mislabeling al-Masudi is why it is best to rely on secondary academic sources that summarizes the Sunni/Shia views about this incident, not your own selection of hadiths. As for the chain of narrators, it is sometimes essential because the so-called "Sunni" sources occasionally include accounts of Shia (or proto-Shia) historians. For example, al-Tabari in his Tarikh includes accounts by Abu Mikhnaf. Wiqi(55) 16:35, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is unrealistic to state that every reference on a Wikipedia page needs to include the entire chain of narrators of that reference. If that were the case, then Wikipedia pages and/or sources would be extremely cluttered with information about the references, rather than stating the actual content. This page is not an analysis of the authenticity of scholarly books; it is a page describing the event and related information. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 21:19, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sure, but most articles on wikipedia are written based on secondary sources while hadith is a primary source. The fact that you keep including al-Mas'udi with sunni sources shows that you didn't quote him properly. Misquoting primary sources is exactly why we have the WP:NOR policy. Wiqi(55) 22:57, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  They're not primary sources. Many of the works cited in the "Narration of the event in Sunni historical books" section were written hundreds of years after the event occurred. Also, the part about Masudi has been fixed. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 01:57, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

text: According to Wikipedia, a primary source is "an artifact, document, diary, manuscript, autobiography, recording, or any other source of information that was created at the time under study." The "time under study" of this article is the attack on the house of Ali and Fatimah in 632 CE. Tarikh al-Tabari, for example, was published in the tenth century, hundreds of years after the event, and therefore is not a primary source. In addition, none of the references about the event are Hadiths. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 13:40, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wikipedia's definition of a Hadith is: "the record of the words, actions, and the silent approval, of the Islamic prophet Muhammad." The only thing that could be considered a Hadith on this page is in the "Background" section. As for Tabari's work, Tarikh al-Tabari was published in the 10th century, according to Wikipedia. The event on this page took place in 632 CE, which is the seventh century. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 18:25, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

text: I'm not trying to claim that Wikipedia is a source; I'm stating what Wikipedia's definitions of the mentioned terms ("primary source" and "Hadith") are. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 15:14, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia states that Tarikh al-Tabari was published in the tenth century. A reference from Wikipedia's Al-Tabari page states that Tabari was born in the winter of 838/839Franz Rosenthal, trans., The History of al-Ţabarī (State University of New York Press, 1989), Volume 1, pp. 10–11, so stating that his book was published in the tenth century is reasonable. It is generally accepted that the event on this page happened in 632 CE (as this event took place shortly after the death of Prophet Muhammad), and if Tabari was born roughly 200 years after this event took place, his book (published decades after his birth) could not be a primary source about this event. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 19:47, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

text: When you say that I am "making a conclusion from his birth," are you saying that it is unreasonable to assume that Tabari's book was written after he was born? I am saying that, according to Wikipedia, Tabari's work was published in the tenth century, and the referenced date of Tabari's birth fits this statement. As for Bukhari, if it was written centuries after the death of Prophet Muhammad, then how could it be a primary source? In general for authentic Hadiths, one could potentially make the argument that if a saying of the Prophet was passed down, generation after generation, until it was eventually published in a Hadith book, then that could be a primary source. But Tabari's work is a history book, and it contains more than just Hadiths. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 13:53, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Tabari is a history book, while Bukhari is (supposedly) a book of "Hadiths." I didn't say that Hadiths are primary sources, but one could make the argument that they are potentially primary sources. Tabari isn't a Hadith book, though, so unless you can prove that Tabari was present at an event that took place around 200 years before he was born, Tabari's book is not a primary source. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 16:29, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

text: First of all, if you're claiming that Tabari's work should not be quoted because of any likeness to Bukhari's work, then that comparison does not carry weight because Bukhari's work is quoted on various Wikipedia pages. Second, if you don't want to quote any hadiths, then saying that "history of Muhammad is hadith" would seem to mean that you wouldn't want any history of Muhammad to be on Wikipedia. Third, there is a difference between Tabari and Bukhari; they are not the same types of works of literature. According to Wikipedia, Bukhari's work is a "hadith collection" (sic), while Tabari's work is a "historical chronicle" (sic). Snowsky Mountain (talk) 22:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

text: The claim that Tabari's work only consists of Hadith is false. As I mentioned before, Wikipedia considers Tabari's work to be a history book, not a book of Hadith. Also, Wikipedia's guidelines on Hadiths only apply to sayings of Muhammad. The quote from Tabari in this article is not a saying of Muhammad. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 18:14, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

text: This is the quote from Tabari's book in this article: "Umar Ibn al-Khattab came to the house of Ali. Talhah and Zubayr and some of the immigrants were also in the house. Umar cried out: "By God, either you come out to render the oath of allegiance, or I will set the house on fire." al-Zubair came out with his sword drawn. As he stumbled (upon something), the sword fell from his hand so they jumped over him and seized him." Can you please point out which part of that quote from Tabari's book is the words, actions, or approval of Muhammad? Snowsky Mountain (talk) 15:11, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

text: It seems like you're the one dodging the question. You seem to claim that there is a Hadith from Muhammad from Tabari's book on this page. I'm simply asking you to point it out. You're not exactly clear what exactly your reference says, but at the least it may claim that there exists at least one Hadith from Muhammad somewhere in Tabari's book. If that's the case, then just because a Hadith of Muhammad exists in Tabari's book doesn't mean that Tabari cannot be quoted anywhere on Wikipedia. If you want to continue to claim that there is a Hadith from Muhammad from Tabari's book on this page, then please point it out exactly. Otherwise, we can conclude that the quote from Tabari's book is not a Hadith of Muhammad (which is pretty obvious from looking at the quote). Snowsky Mountain (talk) 00:35, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

text: First of all, the paragraph from Tabari on this page is not just a quote from Umar. It is a paragraph that describes Umar's actions as well as something he said. If you want to remove everything from Wikipedia that describes the actions of Umar, then many parts of Wikipedia would have to be removed. Second, that quote from Umar is not only in Tabari's book. There are also references on this page of that quote from Umar from works by Ibn Abd Rabboh, Ibn Abi Shayba, Josef W. Meri, and Ibn Qutaybah. In general, a quote cannot be removed from Wikipedia just because one person does not like it, especially when it is supported by multiple references, as I indicated above. If you want to remove Tabari's quote from this page, then why would you not also want to remove the quotes/references from the other four authors that contain the same or very similar information? And if you did want to remove all the references about this event from this page, then that would simply be needlessly hiding information. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 13:41, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

text: If you are looking for one Muslim to tell you that Umar did say and do that, then I can tell you that it is true, as I am a Muslim. If you mean providing at least one scholarly source that Umar did indeed do and say what this article says he did, then there are already many such references on this page that state that. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 18:51, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Sure! It's confirmed on page 44 of "Parable and Politics in Early Islamic History: The Rashidun Caliphs" by Tayeb El-Hibri, published by Columbia University Press in 2010. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 19:27, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

text: If you require an analysis of the chain of every single Hadith that is mentioned on Wikipedia, then you will have to remove large parts of Wikipedia. I don't want to keep going in circles about this; it's pretty obvious that you're just trying to avoid admitting that the statement is authentic. I provided a reliable source that confirms the statement to be true, like Wikipedia standards go by, so the quote from Tabari's book can stay. It is unreasonable to state that every single action of a contemporary of Muhammad must be cited by a book on the science of Hadith, and even if such a book was provided, then some people would claim that it was not reliable and would want a different source. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 15:45, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

text: 1) Not every action of someone who met Muhammad is a Hadith. 2) Tabari's book is a secondary source, not a primary source. According to Wikipedia guidelines at WP:RSPRIMARY, secondary sources are acceptable. 3) To reinforce the quote from Tabari's book, I gave a clear, "scholarly" tertiary source which confirms the quote from Tabari's book. Based on all of this, this quote from Tabari's book is acceptable to stay on Wikipedia. I think you want the quote to be removed despite Wikipedia's clear guidelines. As I have cited (WP:RSPRIMARY), Wikipedia guidelines support this quote staying on the page. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 15:52, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

text: According to Hadith#Non-prophetic hadith, quotes from "Sahabah" about Islamic law count as Hadith. The quote from Tabari's book is not Islamic law. Further, according to Wikipedia, Tabari's book is a book of history, not a book of Hadith, while Bukhari's book is a book of Hadith. They are two different types of books, so they have different standards. Look at the Wikipedia page for Tabari's book: History of the Prophets and Kings. It says it's a historical chronicle (emphasis added), not a book of Hadith. The Wikipedia page for Bukhari's book, meanwhile (Sahih al-Bukhari), says that it's a hadith collection (emphasis added). Thus, according to Wikipedia standards, Tabari's book is not a book of Hadith, but rather a book of history. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 15:08, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

text: Look at Google Books: This listing for "Sahih Bukhari" is in the "Hadith" category (https://books.google.com/books?id=yp9RLUAS8zsC&dq=bukhari&source=gbs_navlinks_s), while this listing for Volume 5 of "History of al-Tabari" is in the "History" category (https://books.google.com/books?id=SdrtpZQphYUC&dq=tabari&source=gbs_navlinks_s). Snowsky Mountain (talk) 15:04, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

text: Tabari's book is not a primary source because it was written hundreds of years after the event. Bukhari's book may not be a primary source either, in that case. If you could prove that Bukhari's book is a primary source, then that doesn't mean that Tabari's book is a primary source, because Bukhari's book is meant to be a book of Hadith while Tabari's book is meant to be a book of history. Also, Google Books is generally considered acceptable on Wikipedia. :) (By the way, it is common for Wikipedia articles to include Tabari's book as a source. Take a look at Yazid I#Sources, for example -- you can see that three volumes of Tabari's work are referenced on that page.) Snowsky Mountain (talk) 15:36, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

text: This is Wikipeida's definition of a primary source, based on the guidelines at WP:PRIMARY: "Primary sources are original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved. They offer an insider's view of an event, a period of history, a work of art, a political decision, and so on. Primary sources may or may not be independent sources. An account of a traffic incident written by a witness is a primary source of information about the event; similarly, a scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author is a primary source on the outcome of that experiment. Historical documents such as diaries are primary sources." Let's see whether Tabari's work fits this definition:
* Was Tabari's work written "close to [the] event"? It was written centuries later, so no.
* Was Tabari involved in the event? He was born centuries after the event took place.
* Was Tabari a witness to the event? Again, he was born centuries after the event took place.
From this, we can clearly see that Tabari's book is not a primary source on the event. Now let's look at Wikipedia's definition of a secondary source, found at WP:SECONDARY: "A secondary source provides an author's own thinking based on primary sources, generally at least one step removed from an event. It contains an author's analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources." Tabari's book contains his "own thinking", but Bukhari's book likely doesn't (his is meant to just be "Hadiths"). Thus, Tabari's book is a secondary source, but Bukhari's book doesn't fit the definition of a secondary source. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 16:50, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

text: Why do you keep bringing up Bukhari? The quote you're concerned about on this page is from Tabari, not Bukhari. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 15:55, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure what exactly happened with your quotes from Bukhari's book on the other page, but I'm not aware of any formal Wikipedia policy that states that a chain of narrators must be given for Hadiths, as you requested was mentioned for your quotes from Bukhari's book. However, even if such a policy did exist, it would not apply to Tabari's book, because Tabari's book is meant to be a history book, while Bukhari's book is meant to be a Hadith book. They're not the same type of source. Just because two books are from the same time period doesn't mean they're the same type of source. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 00:23, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

text: Just because Tabari is secondary doesn't mean that Bukhari is as well, because they are different types of sources. Either argument could be made for Bukhari -- Bukhari's book, for example, may not have "an author's own thinking" (which, according to WP:SECONDARY, is a requirement for secondary sources) and may be focused on just trying to quote others, thus meaning Bukhari's book may not be a secondary source. Tabari's book, however, does have his own thinking, meaning that it is a secondary source. Anyway, it seems that now you're mainly focused on trying to prove that Bukhari is not a primary source so that you can add your changes back to the other page you mentioned. I am not aware of the specifics of exactly what you are trying to add to that page, but it seems that that discussion would be better held with editors on that page's talk page. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 12:42, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

text: Almost all history books are based upon history that the authors have learned from someone. You don't cite any evidence to call the quote from Tabari's book "fabricated." I'm not saying that authenticity is never needed (of course it is needed); I'm saying that for Wikipedia, history books can be quoted. Do you think that for every historical event on Wikipedia, we need to include an entire chain of sources? I don't want to get into whether Bukhari's book can be cited here; that's not under discussion in this section. It seems like you're using this section to justify you adding your quote from Bukhari on the other page, or that you simply want to remove Tabari's quote from this page because you don't like it -- even though it is extremely relevant to this page. I have cited the necessary Wikipedia protocols which state that this quote can stay. I don't want to keep going in circles on this. According to Wikipedia standards, the quote from Tabari's book can stay. I am not involved in your discussion regarding the quote from Bukhari's book on the other page. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 15:39, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

text: Can you please cite a specific Wikipedia guideline that states that "at least one Muslim scholar should clarify that whether it is authentic or fabricated"? Anyway, even if Tabari was a primary source, then: 1) I have provided as secondary source that contains the quote from Tabari, 2) Wikipedia does not ban all primary sources, and 3) Tabari is quoted regularly on Wikipedia. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 22:23, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

text: Okay, here you go:
1. Regardless of whether Tabari is a primary or secondary source, I have provided a recent book that mentions the quote from Tabari's book. If Tabari was a primary source, then 1) the other book I mentioned would be a secondary source, thus making it acceptable for this page, and 2) being a primary source still wouldn't exclude Tabari from this page, as Tabari's book is frequently cited on Wikipedia.
2. Just because someone says something on a talk page of another page doesn't mean it's a Wikipedia guideline.
3. The link you provided can be for pages about Hadiths, such as the Hadith of the Ark. This isn't a page about a Hadith; it's a page about an event.
4. Does Tabari have a chain of narrators? Even if it does, then the book that I mentioned that cites Tabari's book could count as a history book. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 00:41, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Authenticity of narratives 

message: As it currently stands, this article is a wonderfully horrific demonstration of what happens to pages under an edit war. It makes little or no sense to someone who is not already unfamiliar with the issue. Rewrite needs to focus on accessibility to the general reader rather than catering to the ideological spats between readers belonging to related faiths. Dividing the article into shia vs sunni beliefs on the subject starting with background as to what both faiths agree on regarding the history of the issue and relationships between persons involved would be majorly beneficial.
: I'm going to separate the Sunni and Shia views on this matter and revise the article in the next few days, God willing. Albertatiran (talk) 08:33, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  In need of a major rewrite 

message: I separated the Sunni and Shia views. For the most part, I just reordered the text and dragged different sentences into different sections. I also edited the intro to better introduce the characters and added a couple of new Shia references. Albertatiran (talk) 06:20, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separated Sunni and Shia views 

message: I'll hopefully replace the primary sources in this article with more reliable ones. Albertatiran (talk) 11:29, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Veritaes Unam, I guess the problem is that dropping the term "alleged" might be considered a contraversial name change which would require a lenghty process to reach (a potentially elusive) consensus.
I disagree with "alleged", it has been talked about in various sources. If you think it needs to change, "Event of Fatimah House" could be good.
Of course, it is better to vote for this change. M.Nadian (talk) 17:04, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Primary sources 

message: Hi! There appear to be at least two reported confrontations at Fatimah's house. The first one took place almost immediately after the Saqifah meeting and is the one that also appears in several Sunni sources with the story of Zubayr being disarmed. The last one might have happened much later, i.e., when Abu Bakr's boycott had isolated Ali (and apparently after the Fadak speech). So I moved your new paragraph to Background where the Zubayr story currently is. Also did some copy editing. Feel free to undo or discuss here if you think this is incorrect. Lastly, a request for the sake of WP:V: Could you please add the publication year to al-Tabari (and even better a link to the corresponding page in the pdf of the book)? Currently, I have put 1990 but that doesn't look right. Albertatiran (talk) 12:26, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Albertatiran, thanks for making the updates based on my changes! The publication year of the book I had been using for reference was 1990, as that was when the translated edition I had been looking at was published. The original would, of course, have been published about a thousand years earlier :) Snowsky Mountain (talk) 13:51, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two (or more) confrontations