Talk:Law of Jante

message: Is there any chance of an English translation of the background relating to Janteloven? - imho this is important to a fuller understanding of the Danish character.
Agendum 00:39, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation of background 

message: I'm just wondering - shouldn't some reference be made to the fact that the Jante Law uncannily resembles the Ten Commandments, or indeed, translate the ten laws into a kind of biblical style - something like "Thou shalt not think thou art special"? I read the book in literature at school and got this feeling when I came upon it - and I think it is also made a reference to the Ten Commandments in the actual text. Sam Vimes 22:21, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, it should be noted in the article. It is a quite obvious reference, so maybe that's why noone thought about writing it in the article. --- Marc K 14:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's because Sandemose isn't quoting jantelagen(because it doesn't have 10 rules, only 1), he's using it to parody the 10 commandments of christianity.
DW75 (talk) 14:46, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biblical style 

message: :[Yorkshire] was one of the parts of Great Britain where the Danish Vikings settled from the 8th century onwards and it is possible that similar cultural attitudes remain.
Please give me some sources to suggest that the Vikings, rather than protestant work ethic and an early arrival of modern central government in the 16th century, is to blame for the Jante law in Scandinavia. --Salleman 5 July 2005 11:45 (UTC) 
In response to Salleman i think there's plenty of examples in the edda. I might be wrong though.
There may be other instances in which the cultural mores are referred to or implied in other texts or in oral tradition (as stated above). And, therefore, I have an issue with the statement in this article that Sandemose "created" Janteloven. He didn't. It already existed. He was just the first to coin the phrase "Janteloven" and write it down in a list format of what the unspoken mores/cultural norms are, as he observed it. So, this will need to be changed. --Norsky59 (talk) 05:00, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur with Norsky59. My understanding from speaking with Scandinavians is that these attitudes are very deeply rooted in these societies and have been for many centuries, and cannot be derived from a single obscure early 20th century novel which only reflected contemporary Danish society. I propose that the article be reordered to clarify this. – Agendum (talk) 11:53, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Janteloven and the Vikings 

message: Some new claims have been added to the article, interpreting the Jante Law in light of modern left- and right-wing politics. Without references I would call this original research, which should be reverted. Also, the barato is now mentioned again, but without better explanation I don't think it has much to do with the Jante Law. --Eddi (Talk) 04:50, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Reverted. --Eddi (Talk) 11:32, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research 

message: Just felt it necessary to break up the text, which is getting longer and harder to read without a sub-heading. I've also re-phrased the final paragraph without (hopefully) changing its meaning. Bruce, aka Agendum | Talk 14:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sub-headings are always good. As the text covers more than current thinking, however, it should perhaps have a kind of timeless heading about interpretation of the law or something. --Eddi (Talk) 16:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm open to that. 'Modern Interpretation', or something similar? Bruce, aka Agendum | Talk 23:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current thinking 

message: :The income tax systems of the Nordic countries are designed in a way to promote (enforce) equality amongst its citizens, and this should be regarded as a contemporary expression of the Jante Law.
This is a pretty flagrant NPOV violation. It may not be entirely clear to non-Nordic readers(in which case the article has failed its perhaps most basic purpose), but this expression has almost exclusively negative connotations(notice especially points 1, 2, 7, 9, and 10). Saying that the income tax systems of the Nordic countries should be regarded as expressions of the Jante Law is thus a direct, unsourced, criticism of those systems. It might be said that detractors of those systems view them as expressions of the Jante Law, but even this would have to be sourced.
:However its presence is still strong in many areas, and possibly stronger in the larger Nordic countries than in Denmark.
This sentence seems odd since, by population, there is only one Nordic country larger than Denmark: Sweden. Substituting "Sweden" into the sentence, however, reveals more clearly that this sentence is also an NPOV violation. Note that this sentence was added into the article mentioning Sweden specifically, by what seems to be a Swedish anonymous user . I live in Norway, and there are definitely groups of people here who would emphasize the importance of the Jante Law in the Norwegian political climate as opposed to those in the other Nordic countries—this is an expression of a specific sort of dissatisfaction with the political status quo(the income tax situation above being a part of that status quo). Of course, the last sentence is just my personal interpretation and should not be put into the article.
84.48.89.55 12:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV troubles 

message: I have again deleted all unsourced speculation - if you wish to add this back, *please add sources*. Otherwise this violates WP:SOAP/OR and *must* be excluded. I do not dispute that the material is relevant to the article - it clearly is. Without any sources (and there are none in these sections) it can only be viewed as OR and thus not appropriate. If you want to revert the text and add sources - that's great. But without sources this stuff can't stay. Bigdaddy1981 18:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK – any Danish or Norwegian contributors got any sources that can be used to validate this part of the article, which rather neatly, I think, describes current attitudes towards Janteloven? I don't have access to these texts myself. – Agendum 00:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The deletion had left the See also section out of context. Pavel Vozenilek 00:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of Unsourced Speculation

message: This article was formerly much longer, with a fuller explanation for non-Danish (or non-Nordic) readers. Granted, there may have been some speculation, but hasn't this now been pruned down so that it tells the reader almost nothing at all?
Shouldn't there be at least something about the impact of Janteloven today and its continued existence in the social consciousness of Denmark (I can't speak about Norway or Sweden)? My understanding is that it has had a lasting effect in some areas of social mores and behaviour, and continues to do so. Comments? 
Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 14:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be hard to find any second sources that includes any scientific research on Jante Law and society. First of all it is an invention by a novelist, and while it does probably very accurately describe the claustrophobic atmosphere that can prevail in smaller isolated societies (all over the world), it is not a science. The aim of this article should be to describe the origins of the term and that it is still being widely used to describe situations where individuals feels they have been held back by the majority, and that the term has been embraced by most Nordic countries. But to engage in speculations whether the Jante law has any "impact" on society today would undoubtedly lead to original research. --Saddhiyama (talk) 01:40, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jante Law today 

message: Which are "the larger Nordic countries?" Denmark has a larger population than any other Nordic country except Sweden.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.65.196.50 (talk) 13:08, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The larger Nordic countries? 

message: I have deleted the interpretation sections again, as they were still as unsourced as they were when they were deleted 2 years ago. Do not add this to the article again unless it is referenced. And I highly doubt will be possible to reference this, as it looks very much like original research. --Saddhiyama (talk) 21:29, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of unsourced OR (again) 

message: Being a foreigner residing in Sweden I'd say this is the fundamental characteristic of the Nordic societies and has to be a separate article, not merged with anything. It is no syndrome here, it's the way of life. This is what makes Nordic countries the Nordic countries. I also agree with the previous comments that the article deserves to be more elaborate on the meaning of the Jante Law to the society. oxana (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 14:45, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I fully agree with the previous comment. My (albeit limited) knowledge of the culture and society Denmark and Norway would bear out what this contributor has stated – this still permeates Danish society (the country I know best). I attempted (as did other editors) to add a fuller explanation of the meaning of Jante Law in Nordic society shortly after this article was begun a couple of years ago, but those old edits have long since disappeared. Perhaps it needs someone who is a native Scandinavian to provide an "insider's view" and to explain the sociological context of this today – anyone want to take this on? Agendum (talk) 16:34, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree in full. Permeates, actually saturates society. Effect on it should be expounded upon. Would love to do more on this if/when time allows. SergeWoodzing (talk) 06:37, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Being danish from someplace-outside-Copenhagen, I think it's not really that big a part of modern danish society (and may never have been). It appears to be a problem mostly concentrated to Copenhagen and (really, mainly) people who aspire to being Copenhageners, rather than something Danish -- it's not that they are hindered by jantelovs-wiedling simpleteons from the backwater towns of Mors, but rather that they believe to be. I find that people support each other fairly well and do encourage achievements -- quite contrary to the ideas of janteloven.
 
As an insider, I can tell you that this is an orientalism-style myth that does not survive reality checks.
If you ask a group of randomly selected Norwegians and ask them who were the first to reach the South Pole, most or many will know that the answer is Roald Amundsen (and his crew). If you ask them to name any of his crew members, hardly any of them will know a single name. Roald Amundsen is somebody, his crew members aren't. --Njardarlogar (talk) 12:18, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

text: As another insider (Norwegian), I'll back Njardarlogar up on this. The typical Norwegian attitude is similar to the one expressed in Obama's "You didn't build that" speech and, like the speech, it's often misunderstood by Americans. Norwegian society will in fact often come down hard on those who take personal credit for an achievement without recognizing the team effort behind it. If you watch interviews with Norwegian athletes, even in individual sports like cross-country skiing, they'll usually make a point out of crediting their trainers, the ski waxers and so on. With that out of the way, however, they will usually be given respect and admiration as individuals (if they are successful, that is). What many foreigners (and some Scandinavians) fail to understand is that in Norway you can't claim respect, it's always given freely by others and the very attempt to claim it will usually disqualify you immediately. Since it's a central tenet of American culture that you always have to "sell" yourself to others if you want recognition, there's a certain degree of cultural incompatibility here, which often leads Americans in Norway to conclude that Norwegians resent their achievements. Now, there are some exceptions, obviously. In my experience, the Law of Jante does in fact apply in Norwegian academia (especially when research funding is at stake), for instance, but I don't accept the notion that it "saturates society". Maitreya (talk) 09:25, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm no expert on niggardly and begrudging envy in Norway, but in Sweden it saturates society. SergeWoodzing (talk) 02:33, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: And yet you claim that "the vast majority" of Swedes are of the opinion that "Jante is quite an ugly thing". Maitreya (talk) 12:02, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely! An ugly thing many of them also consider mysig and "long to get home to" when travelling in other cultures. They even call it "the Royal Swedish Envy". --SergeWoodzing (talk) 08:22, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I do believe there's an entire chapter in the Norwegian constitution expressly forbidding me from defending the Swedish nation against insult, so I'll just leave well enough alone. Maitreya (talk) 12:00, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  No merger with TPS 

message: Where does the English wordings of the Law of Jante in this article come from? 
In the first version of this article, the words are different  with a much more clear Biblical reference. "You shall not". This was replaced by someone who said the original isn't in "Old Danish", so it shouldn't be in old English here.  Where do those words come from? 
The English translation of the book, from 1936, is on Google books.  Searching for the word "law" I'm not allowed to see the actual wordings of the law itself, but it's obvious that this translation uses even older biblical English: "Thou shalt not". 
If someone took their time to dig out a copy of the English translation, that would be great. Meanwhile I think this article should be labelled with a warning that it contains home made translations - that the law stated here is not a quote. 
I moved the page to the name of the law found in the English translation of the book. Obviously we should use published translations when available, and indicate when translations are made up by Wikipedians. Otherwise we are creating neologisms, which is exactly what Wikipedia shouldn't be doing. --Hurven (talk) 11:22, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  English wordings of the law 

message: This is the original research I removed:
:Today, the Law of Jante is still an attitude that is deeply embedded in the everyday life of Scandinavian society and culture (in all three countries), and is instilled at a young age, and generally acknowledged to be the correct behaviour for all ages, permeating all areas of business and endeavour. As a result, it is widely regarded as appropriate that success or fame should not be sought, although if it comes, it may be enjoyed.
:In Sweden the Law is often understood as having to do with economic achievement and social hierarchy (close to concepts such as humility and envy), while in Denmark, it may also be used to describe the negative attitude towards people who are culturally or socially standing out from the norm, but not necessarily more successful or higher-ranking.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.227.215.60 (talk) 05:44, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously pointers to the Jante law are often used in Sweden and Denmark as a catchphrase, a pseudo-explanation (a model or politician saying "I've never obeyed the Law of Jante that says one should walk at the same pace as everybody else and accept to be ripped off by the state" - implicitly there's a claim that 'the others' are behaving that way and think that way) or a blame game. It's basically the same as British clichés about the dodgy, badmouthed underclass or fat Arab sheikhs with suitcases full of money, overdressed wives and private jets buying up the country, except that the Jante law is tagged as something supposedly entrenched in the "national culture" of one's own country. But only in how others live and view this national culture. That kind of talk is easy to find in political campaigning, pulp newspaper writing and so on around Scandinavia but it has no real standing in science, social/political studies, history or ethnography. 83.254.154.164 (talk) 16:35, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed unsourced claims under The Law today 

message: I think this last line on the page is an advertisement-- but you judge please.
* Web site Jante Universitet (Jante University) http://janteuniversitet.wordpress.com/about/ (in English language).
Thanks.  Rednblu (talk) 21:13, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Advertisement?  Right?  You judge please. 

message: I find the translation of some of the phrases rather odd. 
* "Du skal ikke" means "You shall not" rather than "You're not to"
::Either is correct, "you shall not" is exact per dictionary; "You're not to" is even more demanding. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:03, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That's why I feel it is a bit out of place here. It feels kind of "un-Norwegian" to formulate demand that strict ;-) --Nordnordmann (talk) 18:24, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: What's not too strong in Norwegian should often be given (adapted) as a bit stronger in English because readers of English expect that and the effect will then be precisely the same. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:10, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

text: "think" and "believe" are synonymous in this context. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:03, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I kind of disgaree. In Norwegian there is a substantial difference between "tro" (believe) and "tenke" (think). Tro is used if you have an opinion on something, but are not sure that it is correct/true while "tenke" is more of statement of fact or used for the act of thinking about something (tenke over/tenke på). I think Janteloven is more a system of believes.--Nordnordmann (talk) 18:24, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That difference does not exist in English, in this context. I think you are right about Norwegian is just a slightly less formal (smoother) way of saying I believe you are right about Norwegian. Any doubt would have to be expressed by saying I think you may be right about Norwegian. If an army officer asks his men You guys think we should attack? and they all say yes, there will be an attack. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:10, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

text: "imagine" would be better - fixing that now. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:03, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

text: "noe" cannot be translated as "something" here; to not be good for "anything" is what is meant; "something" is specific (a certain specific thing) in English. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:03, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for clarifying that!--Nordnordmann (talk) 18:24, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I am always happy to help. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:10, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

text: methinks. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:40, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Odd translation 

message: Speaking from a point of view of being a native dane, and having grown up with a concept of "janteloven" as a word that everybody here in Denmark knows, and which has frequently been used in ordinary language.. Admittedly I am not an expert on Axel Sandemose, and I have not read the book. I simply know the word "janteloven" from how I have heard and read that word being used in real-life conversations and written material..
Thus, surely there may be a difference between, on one side; how Axel Sandemose intended the "ten commandments" of "janteloven", and on the other side, how they have come to be interpreted in actual use as an everyday concept in popular culture.. But that said; from this understanding and background, however, I believe that the english version of the Wikipedia article slightly misinterpret the "jante-law" as such..
It is not my impression (of the popular understanding of the concept of the "jante law") that it exclusively, or even primarily, condemns success and achievement, as such.. Rather that it is directed against any notion of self worth at all, and as such a means of intimidation to pick down anyone and prevent even the mere aspiration to anything.
First, for clarification; the expression "the jante law" (as used in popular language and culture here in Denmark - I'm not saying anything about Axel Sandemose's original intention) is first and foremost associated with-, and often directly used as equivalent to, particularly just the first of its 'commandments': "Don't think you are anything." (I consider it quite likely that this fact, along with the widespread popularity of the expression and concept of the "jante law", is owed to the danish singer Sebastian's song "Hvis du tror du er noget" (="If you think you are anything") from 1974).
From my understanding of how it is my impression that the concept of "the jante law" is ordinarily used in everyday culture and language, the emphasis is not primarily on individual success and achievement (althought naturally the alegation of enforcing "jante law" is frequently used by the 'succesful' or 'achieving' in defense against critizism and animosity)..
Rather it is my impression that the "jante law" focus more fundamentally on merely having a feeling or notion of self worth as such.. The "crime" is not merely to achieve or have success - but much more fundamentally to even think you have a chance of it, or in fact merely to believe that you are anything beyond worthless and nothing!
Although the "commandments" are formally articulated as "commandments" - The phrase "du skal ikke [...]" (="you shall not [...]") is otherwise also a rather commonplace phrase in danish everyday language use (especially when scorning or using a patronising tone towards another person - but may also be used in other contexts), and should, for purposes of preserving the intended 'tone' or meaning, usually be translated simply into "don't [...]", or "don't you [...]" (eg. as in "don't you use that tone with me, young man!")
If I was to imagine a tone of voice in which these rules were to be cited, I would not imagine it to be a solemn tone of preaching, but much rather I would imagine them being cited in a despiseful, condescending tone. - Thus, if I was to translate the ten Jante commandments - in a way so as to try to preserve the meaning (as it appear to be according to (what I believe to be) the ordinary popular understanding of "the jante law") then I would translate as follows:
Du skal ikke tro, du er noget.                    	Don't think you are anything.
Du skal ikke tro, at du er lige så meget som os.  	Don't think you're as much as us.
Du skal ikke tro, at du er klogere end os.        	Don't think you're wiser than us.
Du skal ikke bilde dig ind, at du er bedre end os.	Don't imagine that you're better than us.°
Du skal ikke tro, at du ved mere end os.          	Don't think you know more than us.
Du skal ikke tro, at du er mere end os.           	Don't think you are more than us.
Du skal ikke tro, at du dur til noget.            	Don't think you're good for anything.
Du skal ikke le ad os.                            	Do not laugh at us.
Du skal ikke tro, at nogen bryder sig om dig.     	Don't think that anybody likes you.
Du skal ikke tro, at du kan lære os noget.        	Don't think you can teach us anything.
°Perhaps the word "imagine" is not quite exact for the danish expression "bilde dig ind"; something more towards "delude yourself" might be more acurate.
As I understand "the jante law" it essentially comes down to ratifying the underlying premise: "You are nothing!"; its commandments, all adding to that premise, in each their different way; "..and don't you imagine otherwise".
Apart from that I believe it to be a lack of the english article that it don't contain the explanation of the 11th rule; the "penal code": The danish version of the article expalins it with a quote from the book:
A quote is best to describe the use of the penal code:
"That one sentence, which comprise the penal code of Jante, was thus rich in content. It was a charge of all sorts of things, and it also had to be that, because absolutely nothing was allowed. It was also an elaborate indictment, with all kinds of unspecified penalties given in expectation. Furthermore it was, all depending on the tone of voice, useful for financial extortion and enticement into criminal acts, and it could also be the best means of defense." (from the chapter Maybe you don't think I know something about you)
(My translation, as accurately as possible)
I believe it would add valuably if the quote was included in the english version of the article as well. But I don't know of any official translation. The above is merely my own translation off the danish wiki-page.--RP Nielsen (talk) 22:47, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Anything that can be sourced reliably can be added to the article. Anything that cannot (such as our own personal opinions) cannot be added. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:17, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That figures. But people in my world might hold it against me that I so obviously think I "am" something, if I post my own translation to a Wikipedia article. ;-) - As if posting anything at all, to such an esteemed site as Wikipedia, isn't already outrageously presumptuous enough as it is. But to even go so far as to believe so much of myself that my own translation could do, might be seen as darn near a stoning offense. So I thought it might be more appropriate to rely on "someone actually qualified" to pick an officially authorized translation - if such "actually qualified" people should deem it to be required at all (and apologies for being so presumptuous as to even suggest a change). .. This should serve to give an illustrative impression of the sentiment of this "law", as it unfolds in actual everyday life. --RP Nielsen (talk) 05:35, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

text: I too am very familiar with Sweden as well as Denmark and Norway. Any (any) POV aimed to turn this conduct into something lovely, constructive and  beneficial to society is at best a fringe theory and will never be born out as a valid, mainstream, well-sourced presentation of the subject of this article. Most Scandinavians know about the vast number of suicides in the young there (quick, or slower by substance abuse) because of the hopeless future painted for them by this specific phenomenon. They may choose to ignore the suicide problem, as they do in any case, but they do know. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:33, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Content & meaning / Possibly misinterpretation 

message: The introduction claims that this is a Nordic concept, but in reality it clearly seems to be that of the narrower region of Scandinavia. 2001:1530:1010:FA81:2D:6C2F:BB66:6F44 (talk) 19:50, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: A concept of Nordic countries or Scandinavia?

message: GK talks extensively in his writings about the negative effects of Jante mentality in his mid-West upbringing. 2600:1700:EDC0:32E0:8080:FA67:B2C1:6384 (talk) 11:34, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Garrison Keillor 

message: The lede has some opportunity for improvement (see MOS:FIRST, etc.). The "common" meaning of the term is not mentioned until the end of the lede, for instance, and there is a bit of overlinking and redundance. I am not a regular editor of this page, so I am posting here to gather any objections or improvements before changing it. If no objections are posted here, I will make the change after 01 July 2023. 
My proposal is as follows:
The Law of Jante (,  )Norwegian  , ; ; ;  ;  . is a code of conduct originating in fiction and now used colloquially to denote a social attitude of disapproval towards expressions of individuality and personal success. Created by the Danish-Norwegian author Aksel Sandemose, it has also come to represent the egalitarian nature of Nordic countries.
The "Law" was first formulated as ten rules in Sandemose's satirical novel A Fugitive Crosses His Tracks (, 1933), but the attitudes themselves are older. Sandemose portrays the fictional small Danish town of Jante, modelled upon his native town Nykøbing Mors in the 1930s where nobody was anonymous, a feature of life typical of small towns.Translator note, En flygtning krydser sit spor, 2nd ed. 
"Code of conduct" in the existing lede is the term that is overlinked. The following Refs will need new homes in the body. The numbers reflect the current (original) numbers:
2. 
3. 
4. 
Add your suggestions and objections below, please and thank you. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 20:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: OK by me. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:28, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite of Lede (Lead)