Talk:Institute for Advanced Study

message: The article says:
"It was founded in 1930 by Abraham Flexner."
"The Institute was founded in 1930 by Louis Bamberger and Caroline Bamberger Fuld with the proceeds from their department store in Newark, New Jersey."
I guess you could view it this way, but it sounds like the article just can't make up its mind how to decide who founded it. Maybe knock the "o" out of the second instance?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.217.138.255 (talk) 19:57, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Founder?

message: I've wikified all the faculty names as given on the IAS site, linking to our existing articles.  Many don't yet exist, and several that do have rather pitiful stubs.  I could use some help creating at least reasonable stub articles for all these deserving scientists.... I'm not a science specialist.
Many of the existing articles don't mention a stint at the IAS, either, so please add at least a sentence and a back link to this article if you tackle any of these.  Thanks! -- Catherine 00:47, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Faculty

message: According to Who Got Einstein's Office (see page 26), the IAS actually was housed at Princeton University (in Fine Hall, Princeton's math building) for 6 years (from the opening in 1933, until Fuld Hall opened in 1939), which wass a big part of the reason people often thought it was part of Princeton (and of course, once created, the impression just kept going). Noel (talk) 15:22, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Both the name and the mathematics department were moved to a new building in 1970. Hence the present wording. Septentrionalis 17:12, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: IAS and Princeton U

message: There's a quote on the institution in the entry that I frankly don't understand. What exactly does that mean? "Ruined" as in "disproved"? -Dan 06:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that Hamming meant that he didn't believe the concept of the Institute actually worked -- that scientists don't always produce the best results when left free to set their own goals, with no deadlines and no pressure.  I think he meant "ruined" as in prevented scientists from fully pursuing their potential.   — Catherine\talk 17:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hamming quote?

message: "The institute was founded, explicitly, to house Jewish emigrees (including Einstein) whom Princeton University refused to hire because of its institutional antisemitism" I dont think this is true so I deleted it, if it is true put it back with a link.--Stevenscollege 19:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Is this quote true

message: I think the biggest reason that people think that the Institute is tied to Princeton University is the name.  As noted, there are other research institutes with similar sounding names, so that when people mention it, they tend to refer to it as, "The Institute for Advanced Study, at Princeton."  They are of course talking about the physical location in Princeton, New Jersey, but the automatic mental connection is to Princeton University.
:The name doesn't have "Princeton" in it.  Also, in my experience, people do not refer to it at "The Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton".  People just usually say IAS or perhaps "Institute for Advanced Study".  No qualification required.  --C S (talk) 05:25, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Naming confusion

message: "One might discern a certain ideology behind such an unusual collection of disciplines"  Well, one might.  But two might discern two different ideologies, and we have no idea if the author is thinking of a third, or what.  Articles shouldn't hint, they should spell out.  68.142.57.9 03:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Annoying

message: The second paragraph in the intro was word-for-word the same as the second paragraph on this page, so I deleted it. Foxjwill (talk) 03:33, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed copyright infringement 

message: If you click on the Demigod link in John Von Neumann's article, it links here where it only says a few names then adds "et al." This is an encyclopedia. Give the whole list. 68.123.158.127 (talk) 16:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Give the exact names of the Demi-Gods 

message: What is the purpose of this institute in the first place?  The article doesn't say.  I mean why gather a bunch of scientists together if there is no program to have them collaborate?  They might as well just give grants and let scientists continue their work where they are. Angry bee (talk) 00:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Purpose 

message: These have been moved here from a subpage as part of a cleanup process. See Wikipedia:Discontinuation of comments subpages.
Lead too long, unencyclopedic. Needs some rewriting. Geometry guy 00:11, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comments

message: The Criticism section is very long and is not balanced by corresponding arguments that favor the institute.  There are three negative paragraphs in this section.  I removed the paragraph by Richard Hamming but someone immediately put it back.  I would propose a new section titled Purpose of the Institute which would include both favorable and unfavorable statements.  I would keep the Richard Feynman paragraph.  However I would also include comments by notable scholars that praise the institute and approve of its philosophy.  Abraham Flexner wrote,
:While practical benefits often result from pure academic research at the most fundamental level, such benefits are not guaranteed and cannot be predicted; nor need they be seen as the ultimate goal. Ventures into unknown territory inevitably involve an element of risk, and scientists and scholars are rarely motivated by the thought of an end product. Rather, they are moved by a creative curiosity that is the hallmark of academic inquiry.
:The Institute for Advanced Study is one of the few institutions in the world where the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake is the ultimate raison d’être. Speculative research, the kind that is fundamental to the advancement of human understanding of the world of nature and of humanity, is not a product that can be made to order. Rather, like artistic creativity, it benefits from a special environment. This was the belief to which Abraham Flexner, the founding Director of the Institute, held passionately, and which continues to inspire the Institute today.
Considering the number of Nobel prizes garnered, fundamental discoveries made, and major theories  originated by people before, during, and after they worked at the institute, it is misleading to focus on the presumed negative effects of Flexner's philosophy.  There are many more quotes by eminent scientists that praise the institute and its successes.  These can be documented and I intend to include some of them.--Foobarnix (talk) 03:13, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I endorse improving this article by including more about the Institute's successes.  I'm not sure that putting it in the words of eminent scientists (rather than just referencing the facts) is necessary.  On the other hand, I think that the criticism section is also necessary for balance in the article. ServiceAT (talk) 01:28, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

text: The Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, in my opinion, has ruined more good scientists than any institution has created, judged by what they did before they came and judged by what they did after.
This citation for this quote is Hamming's own book.  In other words, Hamming is expressing his own very negative opinion of the institute, an opinion unsupported by any other references.  What are the names of the scientist who were ruined by the IAS?  Hamming does not say.  This violates NPOV and that is why I believe this quote should be removed. --Foobarnix (talk) 04:37, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

text: With respect, Foobarnix, I don't think your understanding of NPOV is correct.  It is the article itself that must be NPOV, not notable individual views correctly attributed and referenced.  In reporting controversy, which this is, it is entirely legitimate (in fact, necessary) to air all sides.  Hamming is a super-famous mathematician, and the fact that he said, in print, in his own book, something like this about IAS is highly notable.  See WP:BALANCE. ServiceAT (talk) 17:36, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

text: The quote seems on-topic to me. Just phrase it in such a way that makes it unambiguously clear that this is Hamming's personal opinion and counter-balance it with some positive opinions by equally notable scientists. That's what WP:NPOV is all about. —Ruud 20:49, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: In 1981, a few days before his talk, Dyson received in the mail the final installment of a long paper by Griess confirming the monster’s existence. Griess, while a Member at the Institute (1979–80, 1981, 1994), had constructed the monster as a group of rotations in 196,883-dimensional space (and in the process producing the Griess algebra expressly for that purpose).
I could find lots more examples of productive work by people while at the institute.--Toploftical (talk) 20:14, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism section may violate NPOV 

message: In the Criticism section the Hamming quote contains this sentence:
:The Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, in my opinion, has ruined more good scientists than any institution has created, judged by what they did before they came and judged by what they did after.
This citation for this quote is Hamming's own book.  In other words, Hamming is expressing his own very negative opinion of the institute, an opinion unsupported by any other references.  What are the names of the scientist who were ruined by the IAS?  Hamming does not say.  This violates NPOV and that is why I believe this quote should be removed. --Foobarnix (talk) 04:37, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: With respect, Foobarnix, I don't think your understanding of NPOV is correct.  It is the article itself that must be NPOV, not notable individual views correctly attributed and referenced.  In reporting controversy, which this is, it is entirely legitimate (in fact, necessary) to air all sides.  Hamming is a super-famous mathematician, and the fact that he said, in print, in his own book, something like this about IAS is highly notable.  See WP:BALANCE. ServiceAT (talk) 17:36, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

text: The quote seems on-topic to me. Just phrase it in such a way that makes it unambiguously clear that this is Hamming's personal opinion and counter-balance it with some positive opinions by equally notable scientists. That's what WP:NPOV is all about. —Ruud 20:49, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: In 1981, a few days before his talk, Dyson received in the mail the final installment of a long paper by Griess confirming the monster’s existence. Griess, while a Member at the Institute (1979–80, 1981, 1994), had constructed the monster as a group of rotations in 196,883-dimensional space (and in the process producing the Griess algebra expressly for that purpose).
I could find lots more examples of productive work by people while at the institute.--Toploftical (talk) 20:14, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Richard Hamming quote

message: I've tagged are several words to watch in this article that may introduce bias, and strike a less than formal tone. e.g. "One could argue...", "unrivaled mathematical prestige" and  "It was a hard act to follow..." The first is a weasel word, and gives the appearance of an editorial point of view (Is anyone actually arguing that? If one could argue A, couldn't one argue a contradictory point B?), the second appears like puffery that promotes without imparting real information, and the third is an imprecise cliche. "Flexner, ever the education reformer," also reads like someone's unattributed point of view or unessential puffery that can likely be omitted or rephrased to be more straightforward. Per WP:NPOV, a neutral encyclopedia article should not unduly promote nor denigrate its subject, nor adopt the tone of any sources (whether affiliated or not), and should clearly attribute opinions (or better yet, eschew all but the most noteworthy) so they are not introduced as fact. --Animalparty! (talk) 22:39, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Words to watch 

message: An IP editor (who I believe to be past edit-warrior and Todorčević fanboy , not-logged-in) has been edit warring to include Stevo Todorčević in the paragraph about how IAS has housed "many of the best minds of their generation". I believe that this paragraph should be restricted to people who are actually famous, outside mathematics and physics, for their contributlons, such as many of the llstees lncludlng Elnsteln and von Neumann. Todorčević is a good mathematician, certainly notable enough to have an article, but I think well below that level. If we included him then neutrality would force us to include hundreds or thousands of IAS scholars, because they're all good at what they do. So I think the IP's additions should be removed, but I'm already at two reverts and don't want to make it three. Can we have some other opinions, please? —David Eppstein (talk) 20:06, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Past edit-warrior? Fanboy? A miserable way to start  a serious discussion.--94.68.84.112 (talk) 20:27, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Should I have omitted his plagiarism? My apologies for doing so. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:35, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Your first lie starts with "who I believe". If you attributed a plagiarism to Todorcevic, it's your second lie. If to somebody else, then I do not know what you are talking about. "If we included him then neutrality would force us to include hundreds or thousands of IAS scholars, ..."  Yet another misery of yours, an exposed inferiority complex.--94.68.84.112 (talk) 04:49, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh? I believe (IP editor)=(Vujkovica brdo). I also believe (though I did not already say it) that they are not the same person as Todorčević — in part because this sort of behavior would be quite out-of-character for most professional mathematicians. It is Vujkovica brdo who plagiarized, by copying text from award citations into the article about Todorčević . Which all has little to do with who to include at IAS, except that maybe it will serve as context for the dispute. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:51, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: You are free to believe whatever you want. This is not a place to fight Vujkovica brdo. About the plagiarism, the award citation link http://www.fields.utoronto.ca/press/11-12/111214Todorcevic.html was in the article before and after the incriminated edit. Be careful when throwing accusations. Yes, I agree, your rant has nothing to do with who to include at IAS. --94.68.84.112 (talk) 07:49, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stevo Todorcevic 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The introductory paragraph is written in a fashion that seems to imply that J. Robert Oppenheimer, like the other figures mentioned in the same sentence, was an immigrant to the US.  As far as I know, he was actually born in New York City. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.250.130.63 (talk • contribs) 14:39, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro implies that Oppenheimer was an immigrant to the US