Talk:Julleuchter

message: As you may noticed, I've done some heavy modifying of it from your original state. The reason for this is because all claims here need proper sourcing and everything relating to the Third Reich needs to be in the "Third Reich usage" section. We need to be extremely clear about what we know of the ancient origins of the lantern and what was tacked on to it later, which includes modern usage. Please be very careful with your sources and be as detailed as possible with them - a simple website somewhere will not do. Thank you! :bloodofox: (talk) 05:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Proper sectioning and sourcing

message: Several of the photos on this page are created by myself and have been released to public domain.  Many of the other photos have permission for use here in the Julleuchter Article.  The photos with permission have it stated in the photo’s info.  The rest have arguments of historical importance which meet with the non-free use guidelines.
I am going to work on the issues raised by Fastily to keep the images from being deleted.  In the future I ask anyone that tries to edit the photos to please state any issues that they might have here on this talk page and they will be addressed.
nicholasweed (talk) 21:53, 07 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No, he is removing images that do not meet the non-free content criteria. If you need to use one non-free image to illustrate something, fine. But having loads of copyrighted images in the article doesn't increase my understanding of the subject in any way. I see the SS soldiers using Julleuchters. I see the SS proof mark. I don't need to see any more of them. I get it. Yes, the guidelines say images of historical significance are an acceptable use of non-free images. But NFCC3a — which is policy and applies to all uses of non-free images — says that multiple non-free images are not to be used when one will suffice. You don't need and should not use more than one non-free image to illustrate a single point. Some of the images don't include any commentary whatsoever, and you can't tell what information they're supposed to convey unless you view the image description page. That's not acceptable. The images should be removed and replaced by free images if any are available. Reach Out to the Truth 02:44, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This entire article is a complete mess. Even after Linksnational's knife, a quick glance at what remains shows that it needs to be entirely rewritten to meet Wikipedia standards. Nicholasweed, if you are truly interested in the quality of this article, I suggest you start it over from scratch, and rewrite it per standards outlined at Wikipedia:Good article criteria. In the mean time, I can only recommend a bulldozer for this mess. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:41, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Julleuchter Photos

message: I've tagged this article as an imperfect translation from German as it contains a number of confusing bits and the source I clicked was German. For example "So it may a only one scholarly message, but many legends and fairy tale and above all this Turmleuchter in the people use once in the Vorzeit on the towers of our ancestors have burned, of those have only told" doesn't make sense to me. Fairy tales should obviously be fairy tales and I've fixed that, but as for the rest of it, I don't know whether it should say "So there may only be one scholarly source," or something else entirely, and the rest of the sentence is harder for me to read. ϢereSpielChequers 23:40, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Needs input from a German speaker

message: this is much like Zierscheibe: these would be a little-known migration period costume detail if it hadn't been for the SS Wewelsburg mosaic. 
Similarly, the Turmleuchter type of candle-holders would be an obscure topic, perhaps to be treated under Early modern earthenware in Southern Sweden or a similar title, if it hadn't been for the SS "Julleuchter" design based on a random example of such a candleholder.
There is the "Julleuchter" thing which attracts attention like all things nazi, and there is early modern ceramics of southern Sweden.
Make up your mind what you want to discuss, and then work either on a "Julleuchter" article or on an early modern ceramics article.
The suggestion that this is about ancient Germanic pagan Yule etc. is pure fakelore. 
It is not Wikipedia's fault if there are Neopagans or "Heathens" in the US who base their "religion" on google searches and machine translations of Russian webzines.
The innocent artefact at the core of this nonsense is a candleholder found in Veddinge, Viske, Halland, Sweden, kept in the Nordic Museum in Stockholm (inv. nr. 32.477). The 16th-century date was estimated in the 19th century, the museum now labels it 18th century.
There is nothing medieval, let alone pagan, associated with this. It's early modern Swedish earthenware, not necessarily even "folklore".
The Swedish Romantic nationalists singled it out, however, as displaying a "hagal" rune (the spoked window below the heart symbol), and of course like all things "runic" this caught the attention of the Germanic mysticists on the continent.
Herman Wirth came across the Runa article and incorporated it in his "Ura Linda" publication. From there it entered SS occultism.  
Now of course there are still occult Neonazi grouplets around, and I suppose they would replicate these items, and buy up venerated original SS specimens at militaria auctions. But It is beyond me how there can be "neopagan" individuals who are not into Nazism who attach any kind of relevance to any of this. If there are, it would be an instance of near-criminal gullibility and failure to pay attention to one's own chosen "tradition".  But of course notability does not equal intelligence, and if there is any kind of Wikipedia notability attached to "Modern Julleuchters" in American Asatru, the people interested in discussing them are charged with presenting independent, third-party references attesting to their notability. There would then be three stages to this, 
#early modern Swedish ceramics
#SS occultism
#revivalist internet paganism in the USA
So far, we have not seen any WP:RS confirmation that the third item has any notability. Random google searches and google translation of Russian webzines reporting on German militaria articles do not count as WP:RS. 
--dab (𒁳) 12:44, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Turmleuchter

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thread_title:  External links modified