Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy/Archive/15

message: I was working on infoboxes, and I noticed Cloud Strife has eight pages of plot summary of FFVII. Is this typical? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:51, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That needs to be reduced by at least 50-75 percent. The synopsis should really only be half of a character article; out of universe stuff — such as development, significance, and so on — should be the other half. — Deckiller 04:02, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, okay. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't SOP. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:04, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Cloud Strife]]

message: I just wanted to remind everybody -- this will probably be especially important to you, Crazyswordsman, given your quest to get Final Fantasy VI to Featured Article status -- to remember to keep your image summaries and fair-use rationale updated. I just now remembered to do this myself for Final Fantasy X, Spira (Final Fantasy X) and List of locations in Spira, and there was a lot to update in the latter two.
Images without proper summaries and fair-use rationale are easy grounds by which to refuse an article FA status, and can also be grounds for the deletion of the images. Thought I'd remind everybody and hopefully save us all some headaches. Ryu Kaze 17:02, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The images I uploaded have pretty good licensing.  Do I have to re-license the images or something?  If so, I will.  I'll check around to see which ones should be updated.  I would think some of the images can also be removed. Crazyswordsman 21:51, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The images on Final Fantasy VI look pretty good, actually. Personally, I'd standardize the format of each page (Summary and the Licensing headers), but that's just my personal style. What you've got there should work just fine. Good job. Ryu Kaze 21:58, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Image summaries and licensing

message: Since FFX is a featured article, have you tried to bug Raul654 about getting it on the front page (do so here) Seems like the time is right for another video game article IMO. FFX is definitely one of the best video game articles I've ever seen on WP. Good job! jaco♫plane 02:06, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: FFX is probably my personal favorite, and that's not because I helped work on it. I'd LOVE to see it on the front page...along with Rush (band). And, hopefully by this time next year, Woonsocket, Rhode Island. — Deckiller 02:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just noticed that Ryu Kaze has already requested it. Still, bothering Raul654 about it some more is probably a good idea :) jaco♫plane 02:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I'm on good terms with Raul, so it might work. — Deckiller 02:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd appreciate it if you could help with that, Tyler. I requested July 19 (the fifth anniversary of the game's release), and that date is fast-approaching. Since there hasn't been a response yet, I was getting a little anxious. Ryu Kaze 14:07, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks a lot. ^__^ Ryu Kaze 03:32, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Many thanks :) — Deckiller 03:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks nifty, good sirs. Crazyswordsman 01:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: FFX on the front page 

message: A new user, ShadowKinght, has created articles for the Gambler and, now, Engineer job classes.  When I saw the Gambler article I left a kind note on his talk page pointing him to the existing discussion at the jobs sub-project and explaining that most of the individual job class articles are up for merging.  I don't know if he doesn't know how to check his talk page, but I don't think he read it, because he's now created the Engineer article, for a class that's even less notable than the Gambler.  Before I bite a newbie, can I please ask that some other users give some attention to Wikipedia:WikiProject Final Fantasy/Sub-projects/Jobs and weigh in on the (several month old) consensus/"vote" about which character class articles to keep and which to merge?  And any advice on dealing with this user would really be welcome.  I'm a little frustrated that he found the project page to add his new articles to the list but apparently didn't read the talk page for the project, nor has he read his own talk page - or if he has, he's chosen to ignore everything I said on it.  Please help me before I get frustrated and say things I shouldn't.  -RaCha'ar 04:05, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I took a look.  I can spork what I have on the Final Fantasy Wiki about those classes and add them to the job page (and "re-Wikipediafy" them), then make what we have now a redirect.  Crazyswordsman 21:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New character class articles

message: I changed the sample articles around to reflect our GAs and FAs. Also, Cloud Strife may have too much plot summary on it — it may portray the wrong message. — Deckiller 18:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sample articles

message: Maybe I'm being alarmist, but it strikes me that we may have an ongoing maintenance problem regarding articles in :Category:Final Fantasy character classes. First, I noticed that there are now a bunch of articles dedicated to individual classes from Final Fantasy Tactics Advance (to wit, Animist (character class), Defender (character class), Bishop (character class), Fencer (character class), Gadgeteer (character class), Gunner (character class), Juggler (character class), Mog Knight, Morpher (character class), Sage (character class), Sniper (character class), Soldier (character class), and Templar (character class)). Most of these are tagged for cleanup, and need moderate-to-serious attention to clean up the style and remove GameFAQs-style material, but beyond that should probably be merged into a single Final Fantasy Tactics Advance jobs article (or whatever). But that got me thinking on the deeper problems here.
It looks like, additionally, there is now a Gambler (Final Fantasy) article. I objected to the addition of the gambler to the main Final Fantasy character classes article a few months ago, on the grounds that the class has only legitimately appeared in one game in the series, and that while many aspects of the class have reappeared, there's a fundamental difference between specific battle commands and an actual character class: white magic is not the same thing as a White Mage, for example. But this kind of illustrates the problem with having to "police" these subjects so closely, because while it's clear that we probably shouldn't list every class to have appeared within a Final Fantasy game, determining those that we should and should not list is invariably arbitrary. So, I have a multipronged suggestion to improve the situation:
* Rework the existing Final Fantasy character classes article so that it's not a sectioned list. I'm using Final Fantasy magic as a model, here: as originally created, the article attempted to list "sample" spells associated with each magic school (white, black, time/space, etc.), which led to the same problem of inviting cruft as people started to add spells they felt should have been represented. Ultimately (and, I admit, against my initial skepticism), it was decided to dump the list and simply describe each magic by school/category, and to drop a few key examples into a prose description. The result was a much more streamlined, and less contentious article that had the added benefit of being much more pleasant to read. I'd suggest that we do something similar here: discuss character classes/jobs as a general concept across the series, with examples only as appropriate to illustrate our points.
* Create articles on the class/job system in individual games, where appropriate, otherwise merge the information in the main game article. Rather than argue about whether or not we should have an article on gamblers based on the appearance of broadly similar class in Final Fantasy X-2 as "Lady Luck," just have an article on the sphere grid system that talks about it, and link to it where its appropriate to do so (Final Fantasy X-2 and the class list article, obviously).
* An idea I suggested in passing a while back: find some place to talk about special battle commands and attacks that have appeared in the series. A lot of this is getting conflated into our writeups of character classes because it doesn't seem to fit anywhere else, but I think it would be a lot less confusing, all around, if it were possible to talk about, say, the "Slot" command without having to invoke the Gambler job.
Thoughts? Suggestions? Any better ideas? – Seancdaug 03:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ugh.  I didn't even know about half of those articles.  I'd either tag them for merge into the main FFTA article or just AfD them - they're nothing but cruft, IMHO.  If they're not notable enough to be merged into the main character class article as detailed in discussion for the jobs sub-project, they're not notable enough for their own articles, for sure.  I'd drawn some attention to the user who created the Gambler article at the very least not too long ago myself and I've spoken with him about it as well - his attitude was that things were "missing;" like many people who give their attention to these sorts of articles, the concept of Wikipedia not being a game guide and what's notable or not is completely alien.  They want everything to be here.  Hence the excess articles.  Honestly, I think the solution we were gearing towards at the project of merging everything into the character classes article and putting redirects in the place of the existing separate articles is the best one.  I'm definitely open to a reformatting of the existing character classes article, but I think, in the interest of staying in line with the recent trend towards cutting out the excess of video game information on Wikipedia, it's definitely best to have one central character class article, with only a very few classes meriting their own (Black Mage, for example). I'm easing myself back out of my Wikibreak and that's going to be my big project when I'm back.  This discussion might be better suited to the jobs sub-project where a lot of discussion has taken place about what to do with this stuff already. Thanks for bringing some attention to this. -RaCha'ar 03:56, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Ay-yay-yay.  I don't know how to do this.  FFTA and FFT have so many unique classes it might just be better to create lists for the pair.  They shouldn't be added to the main section, which is too cluttery right now. Crazyswordsman 22:08, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Continuing as per Seancdaug's request from Talk:Final Fantasy character classes, in terms of creating a separate article that identifies common attacks used by FF characters that don't actually fall under a specific character class's domain - why not Final Fantasy battle system?  -RaCha'ar 22:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Character classes

message: Final Fantasy items has been prosified. Is there enough concensus for me to perhaps do the same to List of Final Fantasy armor and accessories and List of Final Fantasy weapons? — Deckiller 22:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as informaton doesn't get removed in the process, go right ahead. Crazyswordsman 00:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The only information that would probably get removed would be the actual names of each and every bit of armor. It's difficult to find a few "notable" pieces, due to some considering it to be OR and all, but I'll see what I can do once the FF6/FF8 pushes are over with. — Deckiller 02:31, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Final Fantasy items

message: FFVI is now the GA collab.  I am planning on setting aside an hour each of tomorrow and Sunday to work on it.  I'd like some immediate feedback and hopefully some help on how to improve it.  Because, as you know, this is one of those articles that really needs to get featured. Crazyswordsman 22:11, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I recommend modeling it after Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy VIII; one is featured, and one is on its way to being featured. I can give a hand if ya want. Oh, and finding a game script to cite references out of will be a very key thing. — Deckiller 22:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ask and ye shall receive. FFVI script--ZeWrestler  Talk 22:39, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, guys.  I began making changes tonight.  I found some spots where the prose sucked and made it good.  I just need to make it great.  Also, I'm looking for places to reference ingame quotes.  Ryu's work on Nomura's games may help me out a bit here, but feedback is always appreciated. Crazyswordsman 01:35, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I really would appreciate your help with the article as well, as I am performing a rewrite and adding sections.  I REALLY want this to see FA status, and I'd like to get it done alongside FFVIII. Crazyswordsman 22:09, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to try to help out some. Not too sure how much help I'll be, though. I've played VI and loved it, but I have difficulty writing about it for some reason. Ryu Kaze 19:39, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can give a hand with the prose, but I seem to have magically lost my memory with this recent pneumonia/sinus infection bout, so I doubt that I'm an expect. — Deckiller 22:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel better! Crazyswordsman 23:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Final Fantasy VI improvement

message: There's an ongoing discussion over at Talk:List of Final Fantasy titles over whether or not the first three SaGa games and the first Seiken Densetsu game should be included on the basis that they were initially localizaed as Final Fantasy Legend and Final Fantasy Adventure, respectively. I'm taking the inclusionist stance that because a large segment of people are going to be primarily familiar with this games as Final Fantasy titles, they belong there (that, and the fact that Seiken Densetsu actually was released with the Final Fantasy Gaiden subtitle in Japan). Others disagree. If anyone would be so kind as to pop on over and weigh in on the matter one way or the other, we might be able to come to some kind of consensus. Thanks! – Seancdaug 07:51, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there's the argument that Moogles appear in all Mana titles. Crazyswordsman 14:36, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't consider the Final Fantasy Legend series or Final Fantasy Adventure to be part of the Final Fantasy series. From my experience, I don't think that Square Enix considers them part of the Final Fantasy series either, nor do most fans of the Final Fantasy series. However, as Seancdaug mentioned, I do think that it is perfectly valid to mention them along with "real" Final Fantasy titles since they did bear the Final Fantasy name, even if it was only for marketing purposes. However, I do think that any mention of these games should make it clear that were never a part of the Final Fantasy series (or in the case of Final Fantasy Adventure, no longer a part of the series) even though they once carried the Final Fantasy name. I put Chrono Trigger in the same category since it was part of the Final Fantasy Chronicles compilation but was never intended to be part of the Final Fantasy series. --Cswrye 18:25, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm liking it rather less as time goes by: I think it creates a little too much empty white space, and looks a little lopsided. I don't suppose anyone with a superior eye for aesthetics wants to take a crack at an alternate format? Maybe we should have a contest or something :-) – Seancdaug 19:11, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it looks really good, to be honest. Ryu Kaze 20:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversy over at List of Final Fantasy titles

message: It seems that a new Final Fantasy game, Final Fantasy XI II (tentative name) has recently been revealed   for the PlayStation 3, Xbox 360 and Windows Vista. I've started the article as a stub though it still needs a lot of work, so feel free to contribute. --TBCTaLk?!? 06:00, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: SE already denying any connection with FFXI.... Hopefully it will be based on FFX and Spira!! ;-)  Renmiri 20:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt it...I remember seeing a Western sea pirate in one screenshot.—ウルタプ 21:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *cough* That's a screenshot for FFXI on Xbox 360. *cough* Axem Titanium 21:35, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Final Fantasy XI II]]

message: Both are up for featured status.  Deckiller and Ryu (and myself in FFVI's case) have been busting there butts on them.  Be sure to voice your thoughts! Crazyswordsman 16:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Aye, we would appreciate it. Ryu Kaze 15:25, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, feel free to check it out! — Deckiller 02:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Be sure to voice your opinions on FFVI and FFVIII!

message: List of Final Fantasy XI characters needs your help!  There's a couple of places that have way, way, way too much information (Prince Trion is a good example).  I do not play FFXI anymore and quit shortly before the release of the last expansion, so I'm not a good person to try to cut this text down to the relevant bits.  If you still play and/or are familiar with some of these characters, please take a look if you have a chance and try editing some things down.  Also, be aware that I cut out a huge amount of copyvio'd text copied from Playonline.com and be on the lookout for any more infractions.  Thanks! -RaCha'ar 15:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Attention FFXI players!

message: Request: Please write a detail account of the story of Final_Fantasy_VII#Story. I think it is too short. I highly prefer a detail account of the story like the one in Final_Fantasy_VI#Story.
The story section for FF6 includes a lot of details: Kefka poisoning the water supply, Terra having difficulty for accepting the fact that she is half-esper, balance of the world is upsetted, etc. I request a story section of FF7 with more details such as Sepiroth killed Aeris, Cloud's psychological problem, meteor threat, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.111.181.180 (talk • contribs) 
:Eventually, I imagine we'll get to every main Final Fantasy article. So far, Final Fantasy VI, Final Fantasy VIII, Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy X-2 have been the only ones to receive really thorough treatment (though Final Fantasy IV was looking pretty good the last time I checked). There's a lot of work that goes into making articles top quality (Featured Article status), so we generally try to focus on building one or two articles up at a time. I'm not sure what's next. We still need to get Final Fantasy X-2 to FA, and we really don't know which we'll be trying to get to FA status until we've started. It usually begins on a whim. Ryu Kaze 15:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We're doing things as they come up.  There's been a big push by Ryu to get the FFX compilation featured, and by me similarly for FFVI.  They're also working on FFVIII as well.  As far as I know, FFVII will happen, just not right now.  I'd also like to see FFIV, but I have to monitor both FFVI AND Chrono Trigger. Sir Crazyswordsman 18:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request: more details for FF7

message: See:
* Black Magic (Final Fantasy)
* Morpher (Final Fantasy)
* Stilva
and the others. I gave him a notice that it's not how we handle things on Wikipedia, so we should be okay. — Deckiller 20:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He's created White Magic (Final Fantasy) now.  I knew I should have kept an eye on his contributions after the new character class articles he made.  We might want to go through them with a fine-toothed comb.  I don't get the impression that he speaks/writes English very well, just for something to be aware of when trying to talk with him. -RaCha'ar 21:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I just noticed we are WAY behind on our cruft merging. — Deckiller 21:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On the subject of cruft-merging, any chance we can also get a consensus on what to do with the character class articles?  Merge them certainly, but leave them in list format or prosify?  As soon as there's consensus on that I'm more than ready to start cleaning out the individual class articles that aren't notable enough for their own article. -RaCha'ar 21:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really mind, as long as gameguide info is out and the info is compressed. Games like Final Fantasy tactics make their living on classes (so perhaps the two tactics games should get their own article?). We really only need one article describing the classes with a "real world" perspective (although that can be tough with video game articles). — Deckiller 21:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Major issues

message: I'd like to call everyone's attention to the apparently trademarked Final Fantasy Haeresis XIII, which has an article. If someone whose been keeping up with the Fabula Nova Crystallis compilation news since E3 knows anything about it or can dig up some information, it would be helpful. ~ Hibana 22:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know I'll probably regret asking this, as even the most minor and unsupported newscruft regarding the Final Fantasy series seems to spark its own article (see the recent fuss over Final Fantasy XI II for an example of this), but is there any chance we could maybe merge it into the main FNC:FFXIII article until there's actual information available other than a trademark filing? That's more of a footnote than an article, and we can't be sure what form the title will eventually take (it may not even be a game, bearing in mind the example of Advent Children), or even if it will ever actually materialize (bearing in mind the example of Chrono Break). At this point, a redirect seems like the more appropriate way of handling it. It can be restored when we have something substantive to say, after all. – – Sean Daugherty (talk) 03:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've gone ahead and merged it. ~ Hibana 22:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever it is, it's probably just another thing I have to not look forward to. Sir Crazyswordsman 18:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Final Fantasy Haeresis XIII

message: I'm a little surprised to see that Final Fantasy character classes has been moved to Character classes in the Final Fantasy series with no discussion here beforehand.  I'm bringing it here to see what everyone thinks about it.  Did anyone know about this besides Axem Titanium, who performed this and a bunch of other moves?  Was this approved by consensus at another place besides this or was this a bold move?  I understand the logic about not wanting to use Final Fantasy as an adjective, but to me this doesn't seem like a noncontroversial page move.  Can we discuss this here and decide whether we want to keep this move? -RaCha'ar 04:41, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Us WPFF/CVG old-timers may remember that we've had this discussion (or one very similar to it) before. There are a number of different naming conventions at work in articles dealing with ongoing series/franchises, which basically boil to down to one of two approaches: either you tack a "series" at the end of the franchise name to identify it (see The Legend of Zelda series), or you just use the name itself, and disambiguate any other potential conflicts. We decided long ago to adopt the latter approach: Final Fantasy is our central series article, while Final Fantasy (video game) is the article concerning the first game in the series. Traditionally, the CVG wikiproject has adopted a laissez faire approach, letting the editors in each sphere decide what makes the most sense given the details of their subject. While it's possible that a new discussion could result in a different, project-wide approach, the discussion cited in support of these page moves clearly was not it: it was a discussion related to a very specific problem facing Zelda series articles, and ultimately didn't do much more than reaffirm the approach those articles have been using for ages, and which we chose not to use. Obviously, if we want to reopen that discussion now, it's fair game, and Axem Titanium hasn't done any irreperable harm, but I'd much rather stick with the system we've been using for all this time while we decide if we want to change it, and not make the change and then discuss it. To that end, I've gone ahead and reverted most of his moves, for the time being, at least. – – Sean Daugherty (talk) 04:54, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: There were problems with The Legend of Zelda series articles' naming conventions (see this vote), and the user apparently thought the consensus on the issue over there was universal. Now all of our article names are incredible long. They sure did go to a lot of trouble fixing the redirects. I say we talk about this. ~ Hibana 04:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I stand by the argument I made originally: we have a lot more articles dealing with Final Fantasy, as a series, than we do dealing with Final Fantasy, the original video game. For brevity and conciseness, it makes a great deal more sense to disambiguate the latter than the former. From an access perspective, it's also marginally easier to move downwards in an informational hierarchy (go from series → individual title) than it is to move upwards (individual title → series). I'm relatively indifferent about the use of "Final Fantasy" as an adjective or not, but I really would rather we not stick an unnecessary "series" after ever occurance of "Final Fantasy" in an article title. As an aside, I seem to be getting an incomplete listing of "what links here" on these articles, which is making it difficult for me to refix the double redirects. I'll check back tomorrow morning to see if anything else has reared its head, but my apologies for the mess until then. – – Sean Daugherty (talk) 05:09, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I really don't like the new article names - they are very long and unwieldy.  And while I certainly understand the rational behind the Legend of Zelda change - when every game in the series has a different name, albeit a subtitled one - all the Final Fantasy games are called Final Fantasy, and I think defining all the articles as pertaining to the series is unnecessary.  Also, the Legend of Zelda series was presented for a discussion for consensus and I admit to being disappointed that that didn't happen here before the renames were undertaken.  That said, I, like Hibana, am impressed at the amount of work that Axem did to fix all the redirects, and it would be a pain to change them back.  If the consensus is to change back our renamed articles (which is my vote), I volunteer to help change the links back (or rather, help Sean change them back) so Axem doesn't have to do them again. -RaCha'ar 05:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I agree that it shouldn't have been changed to "series" from the above statements, I really wish it was reverted earlier. I spent a fair bit of time changing links to the "series" format. --TheEmulatorGuy 08:00, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, I realize I probably should have discussed it first, even though at the time, I didn't quite think of it as such a bold move. I see your point about the unwieldyness of the titles although, personally, I would prefer Magic in Final Fantasy over Final Fantasy magic, even without the series. Axem Titanium 16:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Honestly, that sounds acceptable to me. The more I think on it, the more I agree that using "Final Fantasy" as a adjective is a little goofy-sounding. – – Sean Daugherty (talk) 16:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Awesome. It'd be great if RaCha'ar or Hibana could comment on this. A pet peeve of mine is that in articles like Final Fantasy magic, the main point of the article (magic) is neither capitalized nor is it the first word in the title. Axem Titanium 22:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm still not a big fan of "List of stuff in the Final Fantasy series" as a format, but I guess saying "blah blah in Final Fantasy" instead of "Final Fantasy blah blah" wouldn't be too horrible.  There's just SO many links to change that it makes my head hurt just thinking about it.  I still prefer things the way they were, but I can see the logic of the change. -RaCha'ar 17:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page renames

message: Since it has now been more than two months since I tagged the vast majority of the individual character class articles for merge, I'm ready to finally replace most of them with redirects to Final Fantasy character classes.  There's just one problem: .  It seems a little silly to keep it since most of those classes have been found to not be notable enough for their own articles, and most of the links will just be redirects to the main class article.  Is it OK to just set it up for deletion and have the remaining articles have a "Main article: Final Fantasy character classes" reference?  I believe only Black Mage, White Mage, Blue Mage, Red Mage, Summoner (Final Fantasy), and Dragon Knight (Final Fantasy) are going to survive the merge.  I can change the template to include only those job classes too.  Suggestions? -RaCha'ar 06:21, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, having such a small template may encourage cruft pages. I think the template could be included in a general "Gameplay of Final Fantasy" template, with the bestiary and whatnot in one place? — Deckiller 06:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I'd include the bestiary and the ATB articles in the template.  Also, do you think the Dragoons deserve an article?  There are plenty of jobs more notable than that.  Thief and Fighter, for instance.  Also, the Summoner article needs to be expanded if we want to keep that. Sir Crazyswordsman 15:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the Dragoons are notable enough. There are many characters in the series who are specifically classified as Dragoons or Dragon Knights in the dialogue. For the cases of Fighter/Knight/Warrior, Thief, Monk, and Ninja, that information is part of the article on their RPG character class in general, not just on Final Fantasy. Dragoons, however, are mostly Final Fantasy, though we could have references in that article on other Dragoons/Dragon Knights in other games (Legend of Dragoon, anyone?) Anyways, I agree with the ones RaCha'ar suggested, but also keep the Final Fantasy info in the Warrior, Thief, Monk, and Ninja character class articles, and have links to them on the template. 74.104.1.49 17:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, most of those articles that encompass several games are in the format that you mention, with a paragraph for several games.  -RaCha'ar 17:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict) Dragon Knight is one of the few that actually got any discussion when I put the merge template on it, so I'm not going to merge it.   Thieves and Fighters are D&D archetype classes and not necessarily unique to the Final Fantasy games, and there wasn't a whole lot of encyclopedic things being said when they did have their own page.  See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy/Sub-projects/Jobs for the existing discussion. As for changing the template, I have no idea how to set one up so I might have to bow out and leave that to someone else. Formatting eludes me on Wikipedia.  XD -RaCha'ar 17:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hurr, I'm dumb.  I added a link to Final Fantasy character classes to  and will be adding that to all the surviving job articles, as well as the character class article. -RaCha'ar 17:34, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I really don't think notability is the issue here.  It's part of it, but it's not really the main issue.  The main issue is "how notable is it?"  Because notability has already been established somewhat.   The idea is to create an article that has at least two well written paragraphs of prose, excluding listcruft, and making sure that there is a references section.  The Summoner article, for example, is pretty bland.  Summoners, or the Summons themselves, often play major roles in their games.  FFIV, FFVI, FFVIII, FFIX, and FFX all come to mind here. Sir Crazyswordsman 18:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that's kinda the point of doing this; we take out all the non-notable classes, put the 'generic' classes into the (character class)-type article, and improve the writing on the remaining articles. 74.104.1.49 19:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly.  My primary concern right now is to get rid of a lot of the excess, crufty articles we have (I'll be creating a List of jobs in Final Fantasy Tactics Advance later today, for example, to gather up all the unique articles for those classes that are scattered around).  Improving on the articles comes next and is something I am personally reluctant to do since my FF experience is limited to the second-gen console era (FF VII and on) and I could not write a decent overview of any jobs through time.  While we can certainly reopen the debate about which jobs should survive - much as I'm reluctant to do so, since I feel that I've given more than enough time and notice for said debates to take place - I'm still going to go ahead and reduce the other class articles to redirects.  -RaCha'ar 15:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay.  All classes except those mentioned above have been merged and redirected, and I think/hope I've caught all the wikilinks to the previous articles for character classes and pointed them in the right direction.  If I've missed any please feel free to fix them or point them out to me. -RaCha'ar 20:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Character class merges ahoy!

message: Final Fantasy VI and Final Fantasy VIII have both joined the ranks of other featured articles generated from this project.  Congradulations to all the editors who put time into those articles to make them what they are now. --ZeWrestler  Talk 17:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's absolutely incredible.  Big, huge congratulations to all involved! -RaCha'ar 17:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A big thanks to everyone involved.  I will make sure to give everyone who helped a barnstar. Sir Crazyswordsman 19:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newest Featured Articles