Talk:John Bosco/Archive 1

message: 'Don' being Italian for 'Mister' is not correct: it is true that in Southern Italy people of station are often called 'don', following an ancient tradition that I guess was introduced by Spaniards, but in this case - and more generally, nation-wide 'don' is the usual honorific for a priest. --Tridentinus 08:43, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don 

message: How did Don Bosco start his work? (question asked by User:84.67.217.153, moving from article page).
* there are a number of hisitories, but most simply - he saw a need and moved to take care of it.evrik 19:03, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How did Don Bosco start his work? 

message: #Paul Pennings, "Don Bosco breathes his last. The scenario of Catholic social clubs in the Fifties and Sixties". In Among men, among women, Amsterdam 1983, pp. 166-175 & 598-599.
#Stephan Sanders,A phenomenon's bankrupcy; Don Bosco and the question of coeducation. Ibidem, pp. 159-165 e 602-603.
#Giovanni Dall'orto, in Who's who in gay and lesbian history, (ed. Robert Aldrich e Garry Wotherspoon), vol. 1; and  
:Haiduc 01:07, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources for this section

message: I sat down last night and went through the 'supporting documents' provided by Haiduc. What I found only strengthens my opposition to the insertion of the text about pedophilia and pederasty. Let me start with the neutrality of this whole effort to insert the language.
Not NPOV
First, the language was not NPOV, and I don't think that if you look at Haiduc's record of editing you would judge that he is a neutral person who is trying to bring light to a subject. I suppose that he is an advocate who is trying to put forth his point of view – and it is not neutral. If you contrast his sources with the ones used to develop the article in the first place there is a marked difference, the Catholic Encyclopedia versus a collection of advocate websites. 
Potential plagarism
Plagiarism crosses language boundaries, and the first couple of versions of what Haiduc wrote bordered on plagiarism of text from these two sites:
#http://www.culturagay.it/cg/biografia.php?id=14
#http://www.giovannidallorto.com/biografie/bosco/bosco.html
Unreliable Sources
The final proposed text is still speculative and should not be included because:
# The Pennings and Sanders articles cited are not actually part of the text, but are citations used in the dallorto and culturagay websites (and in fact those two websites appear to be identical).
# Giovanni Dall'Orto's website is not the origin of the story. It is translated from an English book, Who's Who in Contemporary Gay and Lesbian History : From World War II to the Present Day by Robert Adrich, and in any case it is probably not objective. If you doubt this, take look at this picture, from this website.
In summary:
#Not NPOV
#Advocacy piece 
#questionable sources
#Speculation but no definitive English source provided.
If something that accuses a saint of being a pederast and a pedophile, it should not be included unless it has unimpeachable sources and documentation.
*Did anyone notice that haiduc listed this page on the LGBT Notice Board under action items?63.164.145.33 18:09, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Refutation of the sources

message: There is no consensus. 
I did a quick summation, please feel free to change your 'vote' if I got it wrong.
*Support the insertion of the language
#Haiduc
#ESkog
#Jtdirl
* Oppose the insertion of the poorly sourced, plagiaristic NPOV language
#—Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.164.145.33 (talk • contribs)    
#Safesler
#Evrik
#Pkazz
#OpposeSouth Philly 23:11, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: There is no consensus

message: This article is in need of severe pruning and NPOVing. Articles on religious topics are prone to two extremes — either extremely devotional and hagiographic or extremely hostile and abusive. Neither is acceptable under NPOV. This article is in the former category. In part that is because of its Catholic Encyclopaedia origins. Older sourcebooks, whether the CE, Brittanica or elsewhere, tended to use flowerly, highly POV language with less nuance than is applied today. Many articles have used the Catholic Encyclopaedia. I've used it in a couple. It is extremely good, but some of its articles do fall into the trap of reading like Catholic propaganda pieces, or prolonged press releases. Since Vatican II even the Church has moved away from hagiographic Catholicism with the abandonment of the concept of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. 
This article, in its current form, needs fundamental professional writing to remove its overwhelming hagiographic tone. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 19:37, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with this critique, and I would add that the use of an iconic picture in the box at the top of the page is another example of this syndrome, and a problem to be corrected. There are many very nice pictures of the man without that odd halo around his head, please. Haiduc 20:30, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article needs complete NPOVing and rewrite

message: *The request was removed from the protection page. It's last incarnation is here.
I'm going to think some more about a suitable compromise.evrik 17:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing the Page Protection

message: It's been nearly 2 months under protection - to me, this is such a long time as to be disruptive to the whole idea of Wikipedia. It looks like some good discussion has taken place here - I'll unprotect soon unless someone can think of a reason why you all can't play civilly. (ESkog)(Talk) 02:02, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection 

message: Who edited and inputed the initial NPOV comments?? Pkazz 19:51, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: I just did a survey of Wikipedia articles on Don Bosco in other languages, with respect to homosexuality.
The Italian article is at http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Giovanni_Bosco. The article makes no mention of his possible homosexuality; there is no discussion.
The Spanish (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Juan_Bosco) makes no mention in either the article or the discussion.
The Dutch (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Bosco), French (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Bosco) and German (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Bosco) are like the Italian: no mention in the article, no discussion started.
All of these seem to have a less hagiographic tone than ours, some only slightly so. 
Nobody has started a Portuguese article or discussion on Don Bosco. 
Perhaps the most complete is the Italian.Jmrasor
*Anyone willing (and knowledgeable enough in the other languages) to work in some of the more neutral phrasing from these other pedias? (ESkog)(Talk) 04:59, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: I have some text in my sandbox [] for an article. See if I'm on the right track with this. Jmrasor
*I could live with this version ... evrik 16:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. So the article is not frozen - it is simply the personal fief of an editor with sufficient power to decide for himself which edits to allow. OK. Until it becomes amply clear to everyone here that Bosco is not a saint to be protected but a historical personage to be documented from many different points of view, we will continue to have problems here. How many months have you now kept this page under lockdown??? Haiduc 23:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been away from this for too long to be able to sense who has what investment in it, so if my accusation was off the mark I apologize. But locking a version by tossing it into an oubliette is certainly not proper - and presuming to call the locked version "stable" is false on its face - if it had been stable there would have been no desire to lock it. As it was, there was no "edit war" here, simply a progressive evolution of the article in a direction which made some people uncomfortable, for religious reasons apparently, judging by the comments made at the time. The lock was inappropriate when it was applied, and is eggregiously inappropriate now, months after the fact.  Request unlock??? Why should I have to request normality. Maybe you should go request permission to keep the article locked up indefinitely, that seems more appropriate in an open forum, don't you think? Paranoia?! If I had been paranoid I would have been obsessing about this nonsense. The only paranoia here is the mentality of lèse majesté which has to run and seek protection, instead of setting fear aside and engaging in free intellectual debate. Haiduc 23:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New Proposal - Raw text

message: Is including a prayer here NPOV? Do you think a Islamic or Buddhist reader could consider it a serious encyclopedic material? I decisively vote for its deletion. Let me know. Attilios 21:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Prayer

message: This article is a disater! It NEEDS to be rewritten as soon as possible. Please pledge for it being unprotected. Attilios 10:22, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awful article 

message: I’ve certainly come across some pretty awful disputed pages, where the content tends to get buried under “Yes he is”, “No he isn’t” arguments. Berlusconi comes to mind. But at least there is a debate there, and if the participants are intelligent enough to cite good sources you can usually go off-site and make your mind up free from the shrillness of the immediate noise. 
Freezing a page strikes me as very odd, though. What does it say? That the current version is so wonderfully good that it cannot be allowed to be corrupted by all of those mindless vandals out there? (Us, that is to say.) I am puzzled. I have no views on Don Bosco, by the way: I know nothing about him really. But I wouldn’t at all mind being enlightened: I’m just not going to bother to read a page that has been put under such a rigid regime of censorship. It seems like vandalism from above if you see what I mean! (By above I mean admins, not deities…) —Ian Spackman 20:53, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. So the article is not frozen - it is simply the personal fief of an editor with sufficient power to decide for himself which edits to allow. OK. Until it becomes amply clear to everyone here that Bosco is not a saint to be protected but a historical personage to be documented from many different points of view, we will continue to have problems here. How many months have you now kept this page under lockdown??? Haiduc 23:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been away from this for too long to be able to sense who has what investment in it, so if my accusation was off the mark I apologize. But locking a version by tossing it into an oubliette is certainly not proper - and presuming to call the locked version "stable" is false on its face - if it had been stable there would have been no desire to lock it. As it was, there was no "edit war" here, simply a progressive evolution of the article in a direction which made some people uncomfortable, for religious reasons apparently, judging by the comments made at the time. The lock was inappropriate when it was applied, and is eggregiously inappropriate now, months after the fact.  Request unlock??? Why should I have to request normality. Maybe you should go request permission to keep the article locked up indefinitely, that seems more appropriate in an open forum, don't you think? Paranoia?! If I had been paranoid I would have been obsessing about this nonsense. The only paranoia here is the mentality of lèse majesté which has to run and seek protection, instead of setting fear aside and engaging in free intellectual debate. Haiduc 23:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the point of protecting this page? 

message: I have added the novena back in to bring it in line with the Infobox Guidelines. --evrik 19:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox

message: ===The Beano===
Who the heck wrote "He zipped through the lower grades and eventually graduated with honors in 1835". Zipped??? We are supposed to be writing an encyclopaedia here, not the Beano. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 23:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was No consensus.  —Wknight94 (talk) 17:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleaning up the new version

message: Who the heck wrote "He zipped through the lower grades and eventually graduated with honors in 1835". Zipped??? We are supposed to be writing an encyclopaedia here, not the Beano. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 23:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Beano

message: Irrespective of issues over content, this article is in severe need of copy editing. Much of its English is sub-encyclopaedic, to put it mildly. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 23:47, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  cleanup English, NPOV language, copyediting 

message: I think this article will never be encyclopedic until Catholic users will be stuck with the hagiographic version currently on line. --Attilios 18:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Awful article

message: Hmmm. My last post was intented to shackle a bit waters here, but it seems none was even a bit offended... but I'm sure if I'd changed something in the article a lot of people would rage. My proposal is: would you agree if I'd translated a new article from the Italian version, which looks fair good, and leave my work after opened to your copyedit and addition of everything you feel lacking? --Attilios 18:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was No consensus.  —Wknight94 (talk) 17:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A proposal

message: Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
*Oppose in the english speaking world he is known as John Bosco --evrik 05:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: I am changing the sentence "In recognition of his work with disadvantaged youths, he was canonized in 1944."  The title of saint is not an award the Church issues for particular merit.  See Saint for more info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tpellman (talk • contribs) 
*I think some reference to youth should be kept. --evrik 16:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canonization 

message: The ‘prayer’ section of the infobox currently reads:
:Novena To St John Bosco - Practitioners begin this prayer on January 23 and end on the feast day of St. John Bosco, January 31. They are enjoined to remember the intentions of the Salesians of Don Bosco, and their work to help underprivileged youth in developing countries across the world.' 
:Attribution: Salesians of Don Bosco
This is decidedly interesting, but decidedly odd. Firstly, of course, it is not a prayer but rather a description of the manner in which the prayer is said. Secondly, if true, it must mean that Salesians the world over take the last month of January off work in order to do 24/7 praying, apparently without pausing for sleep, and then (saving annual miracles) a few more days or weeks recovering from their exertions. Thirdly there is no link to the text of this prayer which, one feels, must have made it into internet-friendly record books. I do hope that the copy as it stands is not nonsense—religious fanaticism is a great source of inspiration and amusement. But I think that something as sheerly bizarre as this should languish awhile on the talk page before being reinstated in all its wonderful strangeness in the encyclopedia proper. Please do sanity checks. (Moving it here for the meantime.) —Ian Spackman 14:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Novena]] To St John Bosco 

message: We describe him in the infobox as Holy Hierarch (whatever that means – perhaps there should be a link). But in the text we make a point of saying that he is ‘the only Saint with the title "Father and Teacher of Youth"’. This must be a matter of simple, verifiable fact. Anyone feeling interested enough to fix it? —Ian Spackman 20:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean that you are ok with a nonsensical contradiction? —Ian Spackman 20:56, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official title as a Catholic saint 

message: Your insistence to insert the prayer here is making this encyclopedia ridiculous. This is neither Catholic Encyclopedia, nor Wikisource. A few poets here have their poems cited for entire, and especially in the infobox: it is clear that to be so stick towards a prayer has other reasons. --Attilios 15:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If I could decipher the last part of that I might respond. A sample Prayer illustrates what people who ask for St. John Bosco's help may be doing. I think it illustrates the entirety of a particulars saint's viewpoint. As for making wikipedia ridiculous, we are too late, it is already ridiculous when the loudest shouter wins. Please don't delete things based on your personal PoV. There are literary and historical reasons why a prayer SHOULD be included.Dominick (TALK) 16:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the infobox is the wrong place for prayers anyway. If a prayer can usefully be included then they can easily be in the main text which will give greater scope for explaining context. On the infobox talk page I've suggested that the section for prayers should be removed from the template for this reason. --Spondoolicks 17:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Even so, they will need contextualising and the main article text is the place for that. --Spondoolicks 17:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I remain of the opinino that yours is Catholic ad-spam. Anyway... --Attilios 18:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

text: How could it be ad-spam? We don't get a dime every prayer! Dominick (TALK) 20:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Prayer

message: Those of you busy covering up research into the homosexual aspects of John Bosco's life and activities should know that I expect soon to receive materials presented at the "About Men, About Women" conferences in Amsterdam dealing with precisely these aspects, materials also cited by Giovanni Dall'Orto in his study. At that point we will have to have a separate section addressing these issues, as well as any coverup by the Catholic Church. Haiduc 18:05, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homosexuality 

message: The guy who did this change:
(cur) (last)  22:49, 20 April 2007 201.192.84.242 (Talk) (11,193 bytes) ("some sources speculate on possible pederastic motivations" is more balanced, and puts the idea of Bosco's "repressed" pederasty in the light it deserves until there is solid consensus.) 
... is me, Carlvincent (I forgot to log in -duh!).
And the reason for this edit I find to be obvious having read the discussion page. I am not a Catholic, and I am not pro Catholic. I don't even have a religion, so please don't think I'm defending the Roman Catholic Church or Giovanni Bosco. My only motivation is that I find it scientifically objectionable to add interpretations based on what an author "reckons" are the "repressed" motives of don Bosco. If there isn't solid evidence, it's just plain calumny. Again, scientifically, it's like adding to Elvis' article with "(possible alien abduction, and now lives in Orion's belt)". Let's keep Wikipedia serious and stop adding spurious statements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlvincent (talk • contribs) 18:10, 20 April 2007
*Thanks for the comments. ----evrik (talk) 17:41, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Who is 201.192.84.242 ?

message: My Italian's quite rusty - however, I looked the first article over.  I can give a rusty translation.
If someone more fluent than I wants to jump in, feel free - I'm  REALLY RUSTY , heck, google can 
probably do better than I can !
Translation of article:   {* NOTE: THIS IS WORD FOR WORD WITHOUT CHANGING THE SYNTAX  
                                     ITALIAN SYNTAX IS SOMEHWAT THE REVERSE OF ENGLISH SYNTAX.  
                                     I DID NOT ATTEMPT TO FIX THE SYNTAX BECAUSE OF MY ITALIAN'S  
                                     ROTTEN!! *}  
The left omens of Don Giovanni Bosco 
One of the recurrent aspects and  
characteristic of the dreams and theirs  
assumption to true and own 
detections, considered like 
directed messages to single individuals or 
to the entire one [ ???  ]. In the within 
of such detections, 
[ ????????????? ]
numerous visionary or 
profession dreamers, than 
often they have originated some cults, 
like the [ ???? ] visions of the devout person 
Marietta in the Foggiano, died in 1977; or 
like the [ ??????? ]  mesagges of Domenico Masselli di Stornarella 
(FG), to which vision of the Madonna in 1959 appeared one. 
You attend also the dreams and visoions of It knows and Madonne to you in 
tears in [ ?????????? ] of delicate [ ????????????????? ].
Houses emblematic of dreams take advantage of to you to fine 
political-reactionaries, and that gil they were worth the sad one 
[ ?????????? ] reputation, and represented gives 
Giovanni Bosco. Its fervent [ ???????] [ ???????] one, nearly 
always [ ?????????]  of ruins and misfortunes, he was 
begun from 1854, year in which the law was discussed 
in order to confiscate the ecclesiastical assets from part of 
Piemontese state. Its dreams,[ ??? 
?????????????????????????????????????]
died of various members of the court of 
Savoia or of the politicians who fought in those  
years for the joined one of Italy. Only the participation of Cavour 
riusci to put aim to the [ ???? ] delirious and [ ???????]
[ ????? ] of Don Bosco, that it began to be 
taken seriously a from it represents you of 
real house that gives various members of the Room 
KoshVorlon (forgot to sign in !)  {RIP Lucianno Pavarotti }  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.151.41.1 (talk) 19:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation (R U S T Y !!!!  ==

message: The paragraph as Mamalujo edited reads "Bosco reported a series of dreams which forecast "great funerals at court”, referring to members of the Savoy court or of politicians, which forecast was largely fulfilled within weeks."
It seems to imply that Bosco had certain ability to foresee the future (unless somebody in the Savoy court had a terminal illness or Bosco new that somebody was going to be murdered for political reasons, in the first case the assertion is trivial and in the second defamatory). Any reasonable rational person would argue that the capacity of foresee the future in dreams is very unlikely. The source of this extraordinary claim is Bosco.net and is written by a certain father Michael Mendl. A google after Michael Mendl doesn't seem to show any particular credentials on history or the dark arts of clairvoyance. 
The source is not a "reliable source" as per WP:RS Bakersville 18:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a reliable source.  Although the article appears on the internet at Bosco.net, it was published in the Journal of Salesians Studies, an academic journal about Don Bosco, the order he founed and related matters. It is published by the Institute for Salesian Studies in Berkely, California.  The article in question is well researched and sourced.  Mendl was one of the translaters of, and wrote the forward for, the English edition of Bosco's autobiography.  Far from engaging in hagiography himself, he notes that one of Bosco's popular biographers did not use historical method and that the biographer engaged in hagiography.  As to the deaths, on January 12, 1855 the Queen Mother died; on January 20, the Queen Maria Adelaida died; on February 11, the king’s brother Ferdinand of Savoy died; on May 7, the king’s youngest son died at 4 months. The King he signed the law nonetheless on May 29, practically accusing Don Bosco of causing the deaths by some supernatural means. Mamalujo 08:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest Bakersville reads my comment in the section above of july 5, which as well as giving the reference to the Mendl article in print, gives a link to an online extract from an academic biography of Pius IX covering the matter, tangentially but in adequate detail.  The dreams were publicised by Bosco himself; does this exclude him from being a "reasonable rational person"?  The point is not so much that the dreams accuracy of the dreams, as the use made of them to put pressure on the government. Johnbod 12:00, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have no objection in terms of the disclosure of alleged dreams for political gain or for Bosco threatening his oponents with the wrath of his god. My only point is that any connection between alleged dreams and actual deaths implying that Bosco (of any human being for this matter) had the ability to foresee the future in his dreams is obviously ridiculous. If we mention the deaths and delete the "fulfill forecast" is ok with me. Bakersville 21:11, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prophetic Dreams of death 

message: The Spanish version was selected few days ago as feature article. Who can help to put the template here. Thanks. --El Viajero Paisa (talk) 15:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. utcursch | talk 16:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don Bosco feature article in Spanish 

message: Why no mention of Il Grigio, Bosco's supposed mysterious canine protector?  Even if one disputes the existence of the dog(?), it should be mentioned in the article somewhere.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.109.46.96 (talk) 16:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where's Il Grigio? 

message: The section Foundation of the Salesian Family begins:
:Even before this, however, Don Bosco had the help of several friends at the orthodontic surgery place. 
To be honest I can’t be bothered to re-read this hideous article yet again in order to discover whether there were indeed unexpected miracles of dentistry performed by Mr Wood. But I suspect that there has been a little vandalism, and there might be someone who who would be interested in locating and eliminating it. —Ian Spackman (talk) 12:07, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made the correction.  The sentance should have read "friends at the oratory".Mamalujo (talk) 19:05, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Splendid. But f course, you never can tell with saints, as Pooh might have said. Ian Spackman (talk) 20:35, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  A weirdness in the article 

message: I do not find it sufficient to suppress any textual additions that refer to Bosco's paedophile attraction on the grounds that 'consensus' has been reached. I am far from convinced that those enforcing the consensus have been sufficiently objective - and have not allowed their personal Salesian prejudices to impinge upon the debate. We have to approach this article from a NPOV, rather than take personal offence that Bosco may not have been tha man we thought him to be. And I speak as a baptised Roman Catholic. This is a biographical and not a hagiographical article Contaldo80 (talk) 09:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem with the material is that it is poorly sourced, blatant advocacy for a highly factually dubious assertion, POV, and makes a highly speculative and grave claim.  Per WP policy, extraordinary claims require exraordinary sourcing.  The sources here do not meet that standard.  The claim is essentially a fringe theory and does not belong in the article.  This matter was dealt with extensively previously on the discussion board and the same fatal problems remain.Mamalujo (talk) 00:42, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paedophilia 

message: Not ever happened that the Catholic Church has recognized as a saint, a person with inclinations towards paedophilia. To find a saint in depth should study the process of canonization where it is analysed even the slightest negative detail of his life. Even a doubt on the morality ring may not clarified the process. Therefore, before making statements on Don Bosco based on a book, one must go to the sources, and read the process of beatification and canonization. I ask them to excuse my English. 88.37.120.106 (talk) 15:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Don Bosco paedophile??

message: 1. Promoted "Studies" to same level as "Sources".
2. Added a new study by Arthur J. Lenti.
Jmrasor (talk) 21:45, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Small updates