Talk:Country music/Archive 1

message: Today country music seems to have turned into a money-making and star-idolization thing.  
I heard that a lot of the current-day country music stars use stolen music.  
Apparently they are given it (the so-to-speak "loot"), and to develop the star's personna in the eyes of the public, they are encouraged to pretend like they wrote it, which they often do.  Stolen music is thus parceled out to pretend song-writers.  (I strongly suspect it is all a big money-making scam.)
:This is scarcely new, and neither is the practice of buying music and passing it off as one's own. Or paying peanuts for arrangements and passing them off as one's own. 
:To change the subject, isn't the article a bit harsh about A. P. Carter's talent. "Newsboy Jimmy Brown" and "My CLinch Mountain Home" have always impressed me. Trontonian 03:25, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Pop?

message: *I moved Stonewall Jackson to the Golden Age list -- his first hit was in 1959 and he is in no way an innovator that I know of.  I put Eddie Arnold on the Golden Age also but he could, just as easily, I think, be in the Innovators -- his first hit was in 1945 and he was a major singer in the 40s as well as having a major revival in the 60s.  Hayford Peirce 04:58, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Stonewall Jackson

message: I removed the following which was left over after a deletion by 24.151.110.132 on 2 January 2005.  
:'"President George H. W. Bush declared October, 1990 "Country Music Month", the proclamation reading: "Encompassing a wide range of musical genres, from folk songs and religious hymns to rhythm and blues, country music reflects our Nation's cultural diversity as well as the aspirations and ideals that unite us. It springs from the heart of America and speaks eloquently of our history, our faith in God, our devotion to family, and our appreciation for the value of freedom and hard work. With its simple melodies and timeless, universal themes, country music appeals to listeners of all ages and from all walks of life."''
The text deleted on 2 January was:
:In reaction to Bush's 1990 proclamation professional country guitarist and Associate Professor of Music at Columbia Aaron Fox (2004, p.48) comments that, "Whiteness, racism, poverty, and alienated labor are, it seems quite as irrelevant as country music's obvious failure to appeal to listeners from at least some walks of life." He quotes (p.46) the Schiller Institute which describes country music as, "the 'musical culture' of the pessimistic American populist, wallowing in nostalgia for the Good Old Days and the glorious Lost Cause of Confederacy...Where did Country and Western come from? You guessed it, again: not from the hills and hollers of rural America, but from testtubes [sic] of such cultural warfare centers as Theodore Adorno's [sic] Princeton Radio Research Project." 
:Country music is often called "white trash" and Fox notes that "country music is widely disparaged in racialized terms, and assertions of its essential 'badness' are frequently framed in specifically racial terms...For many cosmopolitan Americans, especially, country is 'bad' music precisely because it is widely understood to signify an explicit claim to whiteness, not as an unmarked, neutral condition of lacking (or trying to shed) race, but as a marked, foregrounded claim of cultural identity - a bad whiteness...unredeemed by ethnicity, folkloric authenticity, progressive politics, or the noblesse oblige of elite musical culture."
:The last comment seems to describe a racist pride, and "Those who suspect country music is racist, for example, might find their opinion strengthened by the underground race-baiting, hate-filled music of country singer/songwriter 'Johnny Rebel' (Clifford 'Pee Wee' Trahan) whose records have circulated widely since his commercial heyday in the 1960s. Among his most popular songs: 'Nigger Hatin' Me.'" (ibid)   
:There are those who believe that you can probably find some so called country writer or singer to illustrate any negative aspect of humanity. But, for every insignificant Johnny Rebel, there is a major influencer such as Johnny Cash, who stood up for the rights of the poor, the disadvantaged and the downtrodden. Writers like    
: Nicholas Dawidoff, Colin Escott, Peter Dogget, Kurt Wolff and Richie Unterberger have celebrated the positive aspects of the genre and should be read to obtain a balanced approach to the wider aspects of country music 
I support the initial deletion as the article should be about the music and the artists, not academic pronouncements especially when they use Johnny Rebel as a source. For the sake of balance I have removed the positive political statement. Tiles 05:33, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: [Tiles and anonymous] (added, 04:47, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: I should also point out that Aaron Fox is a profesional country guitarist and country fan, and thus his opinion is not only as an "academic" but as a listener, participant, and professional, but more importantly he does not claim to hold the position that country music is racist. He provides what is required of Wikipedia articles by Wikipedia:NPOV, Wikipedia:Cite sources, and Wikipedia:No original research: neutrally describing that a signifigant minority of people share the point of view, however mistaken, that country music is racist using a citation. If you disagree with this please provide sources to the contrary, as I have done. Hyacinth 04:47, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Thank you, Aaron.  Tiles 10:26, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: While I do agree that this whole situation is accurately described as "offense where none was given", I would hope that someone with Fox's credentials and skills would notice the appropriate venue for making comments on articles, or at least notice the encyclopedic tone of the article (and possibly contribute to it).  I would also think, from Fox doing so in his own article, that he would support, as do Wikipedia guidelines, the inclusion of these "extreme and hilarious" points of view (POV) in the article. Hyacinth 04:55, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: I presume that you can see the ease with which someone could anonymously post messages on Wikipedia claiming to be the Queen of England and requesting the removal of information from the article about her. Hyacinth 08:39, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticisms

message: Professor Fox's comments on the criticism and response is a personal statement and should be in this section rather than the article.  In fact, the arguments are better located here.  I have, once again, removed them from the article and added Prof Fox's comments, which vindicate the original removal. See below:
====Criticisms====
In reaction to Bush's 1990 proclamation professional country guitarist and Associate Professor of Music at Columbia Aaron Fox (2004, p.48) comments that, "Whiteness, racism, poverty, and alienated labor are, it seems quite as irrelevant as country music's obvious failure to appeal to listeners from at least some walks of life." He quotes (p.46) the Schiller Institute which describes country music as, "the 'musical culture' of the pessimistic American populist, wallowing in nostalgia for the Good Old Days and the glorious Lost Cause of Confederacy...Where did Country and Western come from? You guessed it, again: not from the hills and hollers of rural America, but from testtubes [sic] of such cultural warfare centers as Theodore Adorno's [sic] Princeton Radio Research Project." 
Country music is often called "white trash" and Fox notes that "country music is widely disparaged in racialized terms, and assertions of its essential 'badness' are frequently framed in specifically racial terms...For many cosmopolitan Americans, especially, country is 'bad' music precisely because it is widely understood to signify an explicit claim to whiteness, not as an unmarked, neutral condition of lacking (or trying to shed) race, but as a marked, foregrounded claim of cultural identity - a bad whiteness...unredeemed by ethnicity, folkloric authenticity, progressive politics, or the noblesse oblige of elite musical culture."
The last comment seems to describe a racist pride, and "Those who suspect country music is racist, for example, might find their opinion strengthened by the underground race-baiting, hate-filled music of country singer/songwriter 'Johnny Rebel' (Clifford 'Pee Wee' Trahan) whose records have circulated widely, since his commerical heyday in the 1960s. Among his most popular songs: 'Nigger Hatin' Me.'"  (ibid)
=====Response to criticisms=====
There are those who believe that you can probably find some so called country writer or singer to illustrate any negative aspect of humanity. But, for every insignificant Johnny Rebel, there is a major influencer such as Johnny Cash, who stood up for the rights of the poor, the disadvantaged and the downtrodden. Writers like - Nicholas Dawidoff, Bruce Feiler, Colin Escott, Peter Dogget, Kurt Wolff and Richie Unterberger have celebrated the positive aspects of the genre and should be read to obtain a balanced approach to the wider aspects of country music.  Bruce Feiler, in particular, explores the issue of racism in Dreaming out Loud (p242) where he states "Of all the misapprehensions at loose in the world about country music, perhaps the most persistent is that it's the music of racist, redneck Republicans."
====References====   
- *Dreaming Out Loud: Garth Brooks, Wynonna Judd, Wade Hayes and the changing face of Nashville, Bruce Feiler, Avon Books, 1998,    
- *Bad Music: The Music We Love to Hate,Christopher J. Washburne & Maiken Derno, Routledge, 2004,    
- **"White Trash Alchemies of the Abject Sublime: Country as 'Bad' Music", Aaron A. Fox
====Comment by User:160.39.213.124====
The original writer who paraphrased my article "White Trash Alchemies of the Abject Sublime" has created an incorrect impression of that article's arguments, leading to the follow-up "response to criticism" taking offense where none was given.  As I point out in the article, overt racists like Johnny Rebel are not at all typical or exemplary of the genre. In fact, I argue that country confronts the lived realities of race in (working-class) America with more seriousness than it ever gets credit for (see my discussions of Stoney Edwards' "Blackbird" and David Allen Coe's "If That Ain't Country").  Also, I did not cite the Schindler Institute position as anything other than an extreme and hilarious example of anti-country sentiment.  If you're going to cite academic work on wikipedia, please try to be fair to the original author's actual arguments, and don't just pick and choose quotes out of context to make your own case.  Thank you.
Sincerely,
Aaron A. Fox
Columbia University
:Thank you, Aaron.  Tiles 10:26, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: While I do agree that this whole situation is accurately described as "offense where none was given", I would hope that someone with Fox's credentials and skills would notice the appropriate venue for making comments on articles, or at least notice the encyclopedic tone of the article (and possibly contribute to it).  I would also think, from Fox doing so in his own article, that he would support, as do Wikipedia guidelines, the inclusion of these "extreme and hilarious" points of view (POV) in the article. Hyacinth 04:55, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: I presume that you can see the ease with which someone could anonymously post messages on Wikipedia claiming to be the Queen of England and requesting the removal of information from the article about her. Hyacinth 08:39, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism and Response to Criticism

message: The original writer who paraphrased my article "White Trash Alchemies of the Abject Sublime" has created an incorrect impression of that article's arguments, leading to the follow-up "response to criticism" taking offense where none was given.  As I point out in the article, overt racists like Johnny Rebel are not at all typical or exemplary of the genre. In fact, I argue that country confronts the lived realities of race in (working-class) America with more seriousness than it ever gets credit for (see my discussions of Stoney Edwards' "Blackbird" and David Allen Coe's "If That Ain't Country").  Also, I did not cite the Schindler Institute position as anything other than an extreme and hilarious example of anti-country sentiment.  If you're going to cite academic work on wikipedia, please try to be fair to the original author's actual arguments, and don't just pick and choose quotes out of context to make your own case.  Thank you.
Sincerely,
Aaron A. Fox
Columbia University
:Thank you, Aaron.  Tiles 10:26, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: While I do agree that this whole situation is accurately described as "offense where none was given", I would hope that someone with Fox's credentials and skills would notice the appropriate venue for making comments on articles, or at least notice the encyclopedic tone of the article (and possibly contribute to it).  I would also think, from Fox doing so in his own article, that he would support, as do Wikipedia guidelines, the inclusion of these "extreme and hilarious" points of view (POV) in the article. Hyacinth 04:55, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: I presume that you can see the ease with which someone could anonymously post messages on Wikipedia claiming to be the Queen of England and requesting the removal of information from the article about her. Hyacinth 08:39, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment by [[User:160.39.213.124]]

message: Can we pick one citation style for this article and stick with it? See: Wikipedia:Cite_sources#Books. Hyacinth 22:13, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the current style? Hyacinth 07:37, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Country Musoic citation styleTiles 10:26, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Problem solved. See below. Hyacinth 05:07, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: References and further reading

message: It seems to me this article should mention, at least in passing, Garth Brooks and especially (with 50 #1 hits) George Strait. Anyone have any ideas how to do this without turning it into a popularity contest for modern artists? --Steven Fisher 04:37, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow. Killer list, whoever did that. I know I'm happy! --Steven Fisher 09:54, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern Superstars