Talk:Shires of Scotland

message: This is a merger of content from Traditional counties of Scotland and Administrative counties of Scotland based upon User:Morwen/counties of Scotland. For old talk see Talk: Administrative counties of Scotland and Talk:Traditional counties of Scotland. G-Man 23:00, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger

message: Often Orkney and Zetland (Shetland) were treated as a single county, with Shetland being described an 'Earldom' and Zetland being described as a 'Lordship'.
Should this say "...Orkney being described an 'Earldom'..."? — sjorford (talk) 16:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe the earldom (Orkney) was divided at some stage, by a king of Norway. I forget when. Laurel Bush 11:06, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Orkney and Zetland

message: OK, here's some information which could have a bearing on the existence or not of counties at different periods.
In 1798 Lord Lyon granted arms to the County of Roxburghshire. This of course was long before county councils and the 1890 reforms.
In 1890 these arms were taken over by the county council. This appears to have been recognised by Lord Lyon, who was very quick to stop the wrongful use of someone else's arms. The arms were used by Roxburgh county Council until 1975.
In 1975 the former arms of Roxburghshire were granted to Roxburgh District Council.
As it is unlawful under Scottish heraldic law for two persons or bodies to bear the same arms, it can be assumed that Lord Lyon was satisfied that the County of Roxburghshire no longer existed in 1975. It is also reasonable to believe that the county established by the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889 was seen as having replaced the former county extant in 1798.
Any opinions people?
Lozleader 20:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely arms are only granted to people and corporate bodies, not geographic areas? The original grant in 1798 must have been to an organisation representing Roxburghshire, not the the geographical area. This would explain the transfers to various successor authorities in 1890 and 1975. Owain (talk) 13:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No. It was granted to "The County of Roxburgh". "The County of Perth" matriculated arms in 1800. The practice in England would require a corporate body, but apparently not in Scotland. In Ireland arms were assigned to three "counties" in the 17th century as well before county councils were thought of.
The grants were apparently so that local volunteer and militia regiments could put something on their standards.
Fox-Davies writing in 1915 had doubts about the grants, but Lord Lyon seemed happy enough.
Lozleader 17:00, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I have doubts too! If that really were the case, then what would have been the point in the county council taking them on if the arms were already available to be used by Roxburghshire organisations? As the Lord Lyon article already points out "The Lord Lyon is responsible for... granting of new arms to persons or organisations" and that "misuse of arms is a criminal offence in Scotland". Surely arms that are available to unspecified organisations contravenes both of those statements? Owain (talk) 10:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lord Lyon and the Counties 

message: This is a fair introduction to the article:
:"Scotland was during most of the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries divided into 34 counties. The counties were abolished as legal entities in 1975 by the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973, when they were replaced with regions and districts, island council areas and the areas for Lieutenancy.
:Although they no longer have any official existence, some of the geographic names used by the former counties remain in use. The Scottish Land Register is organised using the same boundaries as the former counties, but includes Glasgow seperately and combines Orkney and Shetland. The boundaries remained in use in an adapted form as postal counties until 1996.  
:Some of the geographic names, such as Aberdeenshire, have been revived for the post-1996 council areas, and some of the areas of former counties remain in use as lieutenancy areas and area committees of the present councils. 
:The areas covered by the counties originated prior to the Union of Scotland with England and Wales. The counties had their origin in the mormaerdoms, sheriffdoms and stewartries created as administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Scotland, generally in the 10th century and 11th century. "
What is the problem with that intro, from your point of view?--Mais oui! 10:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A fair introduction to the topic

message: * Why is Shetland call Zetland here? Astrotrain 15:20, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That was its name I believe. Innse Chait (Old Irish/Pictish; "Islands of Cats/Catmen")-> Hjaltland (Norse; "Land of Cat") -> Zetland (Scots; pronounced Zhetland; cf Menzies) - > Shetland, renamed I heard once (during the war?) because Zetland looked too German. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 18:42, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Zetland

message: After having lost his arguments here, User:Owain has taken to attempting to pull the wool over readers' eyes over at the templates for Scottish counties, by replacing "former" (which they are) to "traditional" or "historic" (which they most certainly are not - having been invented in the modern period and abolished in 1975):
*Template:Infobox Scotland place with map
*Template:Infobox Scotland place
I urge all Users who care about factual accuracy here at Wikipedia to assist me in my attempt to prevent User:Owain (and User:Astrotrain, the less said about the better) from pulling the wool over readers eyes on this topic.--Mais oui! 15:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for bringing it to Talk.  I can see merit in both sides of this argument - my friend Eric always stated that he was born in the Kingdom of Fife, I know passions run deep. Just zis Guy you know? 15:44, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Having lost the argument? I don't think so, I just think that continual edit warring is nonproductive. You are the one that changed "historic" to "former" with no dicussion as well as many other underhand tactics. A discussion has been opened at Wikipedia_talk:UK_Wikipedians%27_notice_board#Traditional_counties_revisited. Owain (talk) 10:10, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  User:Owain's disruption of Scottish counties templates 

message: I found reference at  to 'The Inverness and Elgin County Boundaries Act', which made exchanges between the counties of Inverness and Moray.  Morwen - Talk 11:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's right, there was. I could have sworn I'd put that on some page or other, but all I can find is one parish noted at list of civil parishes in Scotland. Lozleader 12:02, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This might help  Lozleader 12:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 1870

message: "The London encyclopaedia" (1839) has this to say on the topic of Galloway:
:GALLOWAY, in geography, a county of Scotland, which is divided into two districts; the western, called Upper, and the eastern, Lower.
:GALLOWAY, LOWER, or the Stewarty of Kirkcudbright: see KIRKCUDBRIGHT.
:GALLOWAY, UPPER, or the county of Wigton.  See WIGTON.
Unfortunately Google's scan of this book breaks somewhere around page 800 and I can't look up KIRKCUDBRIGHT and WIGTON in it.
Morwen - Talk 14:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (...wandering in to this page from here...) I would add that the content is probably useful in a historical context - those definitions certainly aren't currently used (probably pre WW I/II). SFC9394 21:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Galloway as a county

message: I am just wondering whether Cromartyshire was actually used?  The lists of counties only ever refers to Cromarty and not Cromartyshire.  It would appear to me that when Scotish counties were anglicised in 1890 Cromarty was included in the new county of Ross & Cromarty and has been ever since, so as far as I can tell it has never been called Cromartyshire.  Yet Cromartyshire is referred to in the article, so I am a little confused.  Maybe someone with a better knowledge of Scottish history than me could clear this one up.(BigTurnip (talk) 02:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Cromartyshire" was certainly used in the C19. I just had a search in the Edinburgh Gazette archives and "Cromartyshire" appears 35 times between 1830 and 1873, but never after that date. Some of these are fairly official usage, e.g. notices signed by the "Sheriff-Clerk of Cromartyshire". Lozleader (talk) 16:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cromartyshire?

message: I have replaced the 1890-1975 map with a much more accurate one that shows the burghs, districts and counties of cities as well as the counties themselves. I will replace the Pre-1890 map too as soon as that is complete. XrysD (talk) 12:31, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow! That's a nice piece of work. I think I will add it to List of local government areas in Scotland 1930 - 1975 as  well, seeing as it details the burghs and districts. Lozleader (talk) 13:24, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks! I didn't know that article existed, otherwise I would have used it to double-check my map. Hopefully there aren't any disagreements! I will add a link from this article XrysD (talk) 15:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  The map is brilliant, but contains some errors regarding large burghs. Arbroath and Inverness were large burghs, yet are shown on the map as being small burghs. Could these be corrected? 86.154.187.150 (talk) 15:17, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Map

message: :::You are incorrect.  The Act was the dis-establishment of the counties, not the abolition of the counties.   The place-names of the counties or shires remained the same, but the District Councils took over the administration areas - collecting taxes etc. that were "dis-established".  There is a vast difference between a place-name within the District Council, and the name of the District Council.  District Councils are sometimes merged as a result of variations in  population and revenue.  The placenames within the Regional Councils remain the same, their place-names do not alter.  The correct heading should not be "former counties", as they are still there with other functions within the District Regional Councils, the correct heading should be "Shires of Scotland" or Traditional counties of Scotland.
Can I suggest exercising some patience and allow a response to the above before you start making further edits to the article (particularly if they are as ungrammatical/botched as your last two). Also, you may disagree with Mais Oui!'s edits but shrilly accusing them of vandalism, when that is clearly not the case, is hardly going to engender a constructive debate. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:10, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: May I suggest that you carefully read Mais Oui's incorrect and misleading edits and compare them with actual facts. Scotire (talk) 23:25, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Can I suggest that you take your own advice and take the trouble to read the link to "Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government".   This link was referred by you as being  "ungrammatical". Scotire (talk) 23:35, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

text: You could have taken your responsibilities and corrected the display in the article. Scotire (talk) 00:31, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

text: May I suggest that it would be best if User:Scotire presents an example of his/her work here at Talk so that other editors can discuss with him/her the merits, or otherwise, of his/her work? That would appear to be the only constructive way forward now, considering that the alternative is the repeated re-imposition of massive splurges of dubious, overly-bold content. --Mais oui! (talk) 07:52, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mais oui! cannot and refuses to grasp the difference between Counties and Councils 

message: "This is a merger of content from Traditional counties of Scotland and Administrative counties of Scotland based upon User:Morwen/counties of Scotland. For old talk see Talk: Administrative counties of Scotland and Talk:Traditional counties of Scotland. G-Man 23:00, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger 

message: Working backwards from the use of the phrase in the 1947 Act, I can't find anything to suggest the phrase (distinct from simply "city") actually has any validity WRT Scotland. It appears once in the 1889 Act but with no definition, suggesting that it might have been carelessly cribbed from prior English legislation. I have never encountered use of the phrase as a description in e.g. civil registration records in Scotland while it was a standard description in England.MBRZ48 (talk) 04:06, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The phrase "Counties of Cities" 

message: This article should be renamed as Counties of Scotland as in Scotland counties are not referred to as "shires".
Jamie Stuart (talk) 15:15, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: - They quibbled high, they quibbled low... I understand this to be well intentioned in as far as forums go, but please provide a couple of reliably sourced texts and citations, please? Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:07, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889 called them "counties" and gave them "county councils". The Local Government (Scotland) Act 1947 called them "counties". The Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 called them "counties". The National Records of Scotland, National Library of Scotland and Historic Environment Scotland continue to call them "counties". It seems fairly clear that "counties" is both the official and the standard name for these. JimmyGuano (talk) 16:36, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shires or Counties ?