Talk:Gyula (title)

message: Here it is!
A Magyar Nyelv Történeti-Etmológiai Szótára, Akadémiai Kiadó, Budapest, 1967,1984
Summary of entry: Gyula is a word of Turkic origin. The original meaning was "torch" but it had already come to be a title before it was transferred to Hungarian (either directly from ancient Turkish or via Khazar). The word was used to describe the warlord of the Magyar tribes. The first written reference to the Hungarian word is circa 950AD as jila. A reference from 1075 spells the word as Jula. In Gesta Hungarorum it is Geula or Gyyla [I presume from different manuscripts]. The word was revived in the 19th century as a given name. 
Related words in other languages include:
Yula (Pecheneg)
Yulaman (Bashkir)
Kaltanjula (Altai)
Scott Moore 10:16, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology of Gyula 

message: since this "Gyula" is pronounced as "Diulo" in magyar, and considering the Bulgar connection that Gesta Hungarorum brings in connection with Gelou, Glad, Menumorout (who refused "with a bulgarian heart" the offer of Arpad) and Gyula, is it possible that the bulgarian Dulo clan to have any relevance in all this "intrigue" ? - see List_of_Bulgarian_monarchs -- Criztu 21:49, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enter the bulgarian Dulo clan 

message: I've just read a part of Realm of St.Stephen: History of Medieval Hungary, 895-1526 which is a recent work written by a Hungarian historian for the English-speaking market (it hasn't even been published in Hungarian). This has further clarified things and in some cases confirmed what I had already read elsewhere. 
I'm going to change this from a disambiguation page, as the revised article will focus on the title/personal name Gyula. Scott Moore 16:06, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: from what i understand, Sarolt was a cuman/pecheneg name. it meant something like, "land of Olt". somehow Gyula came from Oltenia (according to Mircea Dogaru). and by the time of Gestas, lands from Oltenia and along river Olt were refered to as Tera Cumanorum or Terra Blacorum et Bissenorum (pechenegs). so this name is in relation with cumans and pechenegs, who are considered turkic people, unlike romanians or hungarians who are latin and altaic respectively. so adding info on Oltenia and cumans and pechenegs i think is a plus ; Tuhutum i thought was son of Arpad. np if he wasn't, i'll search for this info-- Criztu 18:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Drear Criztu! The form Gyula has already appeared in the Chronicon Pictum (14th century). See the newly added picture! (Red letters: Gyula duce Transiluano) 81.183.150.84 10:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further clarification of Gyula 

message: A small point: Hungarian has many given names that have no equivalents in the major Western languages (English, French, German, Latin). So for a long time, it has been a practice to look for the most-similar-sounding Latin etc. name and use it as an "equivalent", although there was no etymological connection. So for example Jenő was connected with Eugenius/Eugen/Eugene/Eugène, Sarolta with Charlotte, László (a male name) with Leslie (a female name, no kidding, this was a mistake started by an otherwise brilliant and immensely popular English-Hungarian dictionary). So be careful, just because two names are used as equivalents doesn't mean they are etymologically connected.
:what about Tibor ? who guarantees you Gyula is not from a romance name Giuliu/Gelou ? currently you can find the name Giulio - italian, and Gelu - romanian (i don't count romanian name Iuliu as it might be a revived name) -- Criztu 29 June 2005 21:43 (UTC)
::what i said is no "proof" or whatever, I just wanted to point out that just because Gyula has been connected to Julius in the 19th does not automatically mean it is etymologically connected. It may well be, than it is a coincidence. But Scott Moore has already qouted that etymological dictionary, what's in it is probably the view of historical linguists as of today (which may be wrong, of course, but come on, those guys who wrote it are professional linguists, and we are all amateurs, why do we think we can outsmart them? Sarolta and Charlotte completely sound like each other, even the r-l change would be fairly typical, and still, we know these names are unconnected. So historical linguistics is more tricky than it looks, be careful and really let us not kid ourselves that we can be smarter than the experts who spent their who life researching this stuff. I mean, to do historical linguistics, it is not enough to be intelligent, you have to read and study a lot etc., just like any other science, it takes a lot of work, it is not only a matter of sheer intelligence)--Tamas 30 June 2005 09:50 (UTC)
:::if name Gyula comes from title Gyula, then i'd expect other titles to evolve into names. so, show me a hungarian name evolved from the titles Harka or Kende (just curious); i'm also curious about names evolved from titles in other languages if there are such. I thought a little and Cesar comes to mind, but that is an opposite process i think, name Caesar evolved into title -- Criztu 30 June 2005 10:00 (UTC)
::: I don't know much about the etymology of Gyula, I just wanted to make that small point. But anyway, Kende is used as a given name, although it is much less popular than Gyula.--Tamas 30 June 2005 10:28 (UTC)
:Criztu, I got a question for you: do any Romanian linguists or historians question the Turkic etymology of gyula? If not, then you know the deal: no original research, etc.; though we can always add a note if need be that the Turkic etymology is the general etymology, but not "proven". It's hard to prove these kind of things though. 007 1 July 2005 01:56 (UTC)
::don't know if any ro linguist made research about the title "gyula". About the name Gyula, well, also don't know if any ro linguist addressed the matter. that Mircea Dogaru talks about the frequency of romanian placenames: Giulesti, Julea, Gilau, etc. and relates them to Julius. this site  http://www.behindthename.com/ who claims to use expert studies, relates Gyula to Julius  http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?terms=gyula&nmd=n&gender=both&operator=or
:You made a point earlier about titles rarely becoming names, but I think it happens sometimes. 007 1 July 2005 08:31 (UTC)
Even if it is of Turkic origin it could be from Julius (perhaps through Italian Giulio). Turkic people certainly knew of Julius Caesar. Just remember: such Slavic names for king as Kral and Krol -- and Hungarian Kiraly -- derive from Karl (as in Charlemagne).Pbrower2a (talk) 16:24, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Gyula and Julius

message: Could someone add an IPA pronunciation? pfahlstrom 21:22, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation?