Talk:Yeísmo

message: it'd be nice if some native speakers could provide a sound sample. --Rajah (talk) 21:20, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: sound sample?

message: Isn't it generalized except among bilingual speakers of Catalan and Quechua?
:No, there are still non-yeístas in other places like Paraguay, Colombia and the Philippines (even though the indigenous languages of those areas do not feature the palatal lateral), as well as in other areas in Spain, particularly in rural areas in northern Castile and other northern parts of the country and also among those who grew up in said areas or in families from said areas but who now live in big cities. I meet some of them from time to time, and a few well-known Spanish media voices are non-yeísta, such as Iñaki Gabilondo and someone else whose name I can't recall but who routinely dubs many of the documentaries that are broadcast on TVE-2. But ever more in Spain the distinction is becoming restricted to older speakers who grew up hearing it; the younger generations are too influenced by the language they hear on radio and TV, which is mostly yeísta because for many decades most of it has been originating from Madrid, which became a radiating focus of yeísmo long ago. To my dismay, I've even heard of originally non-yeísta people who have renounced to making the distinction they learned from childhood, so as to not sound "odd" among the yeísta crowd in places like Madrid. However, I am one of the unfortunately-not-so-many who proudly keeps the distinction despite the sociolinguistic pressure of surrounding yeístas; in fact, I'm a fan of the palatal lateral and don't like yeísmo at all, I personally find it sounds just ugly. This reference describes the areas in Latin America that keep the distinction. It also mentions the difference between yeísmo confundidor (the merger of ll with y, which is what yeísmo usually refers to) and yeísmo distinguidor (where ll has lost its lateral feature, becoming a rehilado sound like Rioplatense ll/y, but is still distinguished from the non-rehilado sound of y); something should be added to the article regarding these two kinds of yeísmo.  Uaxuctum 00:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Iñaki Gabilondo is half Basque half Catalan. Both Basque and Catalan have a distinction between y and ll... 31.221.221.129 (talk) 13:52, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Generalized

message: Has this anything to do with why Majorca is written "Mallorca" rather than "Mayorca"? --Henrygb 23:16, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, its about pronunciation, not writing. LL and Y are (where?) supposed to have different sounds, but they are very often pronunced the same. Mariano(t/c) 08:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But might it be a phonetic transcription error hearing the Latin maior or major and taking it to be ll rather than y? --Henrygb 10:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I have found this reference confirming that the etymologically anomalous form "Mallorca" is a by-product of  ieisme—a hypercorrected form due to a mistaken interpretation that speakers of continental Catalan made of the ieisme etimològic that is characteristic of the Balearic speech: Diccionari català-valencià-balear, Institut d'Estudis Catalans (look up the term "Mallorca"): "La forma catalana antiga era Maiorca, i d'aquesta pronúncia trobam deixalles en les antigues grafies Mayorca i Mayorques; però com en la majoria dels casos en què el mallorquí té una i intervocàlica, el català de Barcelona té una ll (com orella oreia, palla paia, etc.), la i de Maiorca fou interpretada pels catalans continentals com un dialectalisme mallorquí, al qual ells oposaren la pronúncia Mallorca, i aquesta, predominant en l'escriptura, acabà per imposar-se fins i tot als mateixos mallorquins. Aquesta és l'explicació, completament satisfactòria, que del canvi de Maiorca en Mallorca donà B. Schädel en Rev. Dial. Rom., i, 267." (translation: "The old Catalan form was Maiorca, and we find remnants of this pronunciation in the old spellings Mayorca and Mayorques; but given that in the majority of cases where the Majorcan dialect has an intervocalic i, Barcelonian Catalan has an ll (e.g., orella/oreia, palla/paia, etc.), the i in Maiorca was interpreted by continental Catalans as a Majorcan dialectal form, to which they opposed the pronunciation Mallorca, and this one, prevalent in the written form, got finally imposed on the very Majorcans. This is the explanation, completely satisfactory, that Bernhard Schädel gave for the change from Maiorca to Mallorca in Revue de Dialectologie Romane, tome i, page 267.") Uaxuctum 15:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mallorca

message: I am not a linguist and I speak only a few words Spanish. I was born and raised in Europe and mostly exposed to "Spanish Spanish". Then I moved to the U.S. and got exposed to Spanish spoken by people in the U.S.. Then I married an Argentinean and got exposed to things like voseo, but also, differences in yeismo...
Having stated my (limited) experience, I'd like to use the phrase "Llame ya" (which I have seen used many times in Argentinian TV commercials) as an example:
* In most of Spain, it would be pronounced something close to English "lyah-meh yah". (Note the leading "l".)
* In Argentina, Paraguay, and Uruguay, it would be something like the English "jah-meh jah". (Where the "j" sounds like the "g" in "gin".)
* In other Latin American countries (I know Peru is one), it would be something like English "yah-meh yah". This also seems how most Spanish speakers in the U.S. pronounce it.
Also, compare Spanish "ñ" to Portuguese "nh" and Italian "gn". Interesting parallel with Spanish "ll", Portuguese "lh" and Italian "gl", just that there never seems to have been an "l" with a tilde...
At least, that is the impression I got. I hope someone much better at the different dialects of Spanish can add something about this to this article.
Addition: Yes, I understand that what I said here does not change the fact that in yeismo, either "ll" and "y" are pronounced the same way or they are not. Just 2 possibilities. But I think a nuance should be added. Either to this article or the Spanish dialects and varieties. Because I think there are at least 3 ways of pronouncing: (1) The same, one way. (2) The same, a different way. (3) Differently. wjmt (talk) 21:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Stop using English to describe Spanish. If you don't understand IPA, then use Spanish to describe Spanish. That's what many languages do when describing dialects. The reason why there is no tilde on "l" is because a "l" is a very tall letter. A tilde would simply not fit. --2.245.140.128 (talk) 04:57, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

text: English has ways to approximate the distinctions, whereas Spanish doesn't, so, since we're writing in English, why wouldn't we use English as the frame of reference? As for the tilde not fitting, we manage to write Ñ, and we put accents on top of the upper-case letters, so that can't be the reason. —Largo Plazo (talk) 11:22, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: At least 3 variants?

message: The article says that "yeísmo is already the majority in Galician". This sentence doesn't sound right ("yeísmo is already mainstream in Galician" would sound English), and furthermore, it doesn't cite references. The Spanish version of this article says the very opposite (while citing references), namely that Spaniards from bilingual regions of Spain, including Galicia, tend to distinguish between ll and y. --217.42.90.141 (talk) 21:11, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed the sentence, and added a  tag.  The claim in the en article is not quite the opposite of the claim in the es article - the en article says that yeismo is spreading to Galician and Catalan, while the es article says that in areas where Galician and Catalan are spoken, yeismo is less common in Castilian.  Argyriou (talk) 06:25, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Yeísmo in Galicia

message: I was born in Buenos Aires in 1944 and lived there until I moved to the US in 1995. It's hard to pinpoint dates when things change gradually, but the final result is clear: the "ye" sound for letters "ll" and "y" I grew up with has been almost completely replaced by "she". Lavalle street, or "calle Lavalle", which always sounded "caye lavaye", is now "cashe lavashe". I was just listening to SonAr, the podcast from the Argentine National Archives, and all the speakers use the "sh".
Has the origin of this change been studied? Where did it come from? Why?
Alejandro Milberg (talk) 18:30, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It has been studied, and I'm pretty sure it came from Buenos Aires. this paper goes over its beginning in the background section, "sh" was widespread in young women's speech in BA in the 70s and early 80s, it must've spread from there. Erinius (talk) 22:04, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

text: Thank you, very interesting! I'll have to learn all the tech terms, but I do appreciate this.Alejandro Milberg (talk) 01:00, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "She" in Argentina