Template talk:Family International

message: ... started initially with (32) entries.  Smee 00:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, cool.  I guess you noticed that I went on a Wikisearch for articles to add to :Category:Children  of God.  Joie de Vivre 02:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really, but I did take a look at the category for some relevant articles for the template.  Smee 03:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Created template... 

message: This looks to me like undue weight to put the names of members or ex-members or people whose parents were members in the template. So I removed those sections. --Justanother 03:59, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: COG is a group of people; how is it undue weight to mention... the people?  Joie de Vivre 05:06, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Members and ex-members 

message: I question the inclusion of a number of names in this template, specifically those of individuals who: (1) do not have Wikipedia articles; or (2) whose articles do not indicate that they self-identified with COG/TFI or that their past affiliation with COG/TFI is relevant to their notability.
The first group includes Christopher Owens, Juliana Buhring, Celeste Jones and Kristina Jones. The purpose of navigation templates is to help readers navigate between related articles, so what is the rationale for listing individuals who do not have articles to which readers could navigate?
The second group includes Susan Justice, Rose McGowan, Joaquin Phoenix, Rain Phoenix, River Phoenix and Summer Phoenix. Per WP:BLPCAT, whose principles apply to navigation templates as well:
Categories regarding religious beliefs ... should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief ... in question; and the subject's beliefs ... are relevant to their notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources." (emphasis added)
The edit summary restoring the names (here) indicated that "[a]ll of these people have self-identified themselves as affiliated (past/present) with this group". Where, in each article, are these two criteria—self-identification and relevance to notable activities—satisfied? I checked each article prior to removing the names and found content confirming that the individuals' parents were members of COG/TFI, but little else. Thank you, -- Black Falcon (talk) 17:45, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone who isn't unequivocally a current member, and who hasn't self-identified as such, should not be included in the template, full stop. Including 'former members' in a list entitled 'members' is just plain wrong. Can anyone give me a valid reason why I shouldn't delete all the names until such time as this is corrected (and sources to back it up provided)? If I don't see a response soon, I'll go ahead. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:28, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd go a step further to suggest that ordinary members should not be listed at all. I understand and support listing the leaders of an organization and people known for their association (pro- or anti-) with the organization, but why should a general template about TFI contain a list of ordinary members who are not known primarily for their affiliation with TFI? -- Black Falcon (talk) 21:02, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right. Per WP:BLP#CAT, we shouldn't include anyone who's notability isn't linked to their membership. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:04, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That would rule out Kerenina Sunny Halim. A further two names—Christy Gibson and Jonas Anderson (singer)—should be removed for lack of sources, leaving only Jeremy Spencer and Ricky Rodriguez. Their notability is linked to their membership in TFI, and they probably should be included. Perhaps the "Leadership" and "Members" groups could be combined into one "People" group: David Berg (founder) - Karen Zerby (current leader) - Ricky Rodriguez (ex-member) - Jeremy Spencer (member). -- Black Falcon (talk) 21:37, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As the one would reverted back to inclusion of those names, I reconsidered and I now agree with you. Some of those names do not belong. When I wrote that "they have self-identified", I should have clarified. Some of them have. The entire Phoenix family were members of TFI and the biography of River Phoenix includes several paragraphs on his time in Venezuela in TFI and he said a bit about it. Joaquin Phoenix also said a bit about his time in several interviews. Rose McGowan also talked about her time in TFI in Italy in several interviews, as did Christopher Owens and Susan Cagle/Justice. Christy Gibson and Jonas Anderson have been very vocal of their membership and support of TFI in Thailand (and TFI promoted their involvement in TFI). Kerenina Sunny Halim was, in the past, very active in TFI. Anyway, I don't really care either way. If you don't think these names should be included, feel free to delete any or all of them. --Thorwald (talk) 23:12, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Members, again