Talk:2006 Ontario terrorism plot

message: I have added an Associated Press Report to the links. Capitalistroadster 03:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Previous discussion without header

message: Images from the CBC should not be here. Also images from the BBC do not work either. I've had problems like this in the past. FellowWikipedian 02:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One of the images also has the United States federal government as the author. I'm assuming that's incorrect since the arrests took place in Canada. --Impaciente 06:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. User:CST did that. FellowWikipedian 20:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: There are too many American news sites in the References section. We need to have Canadian ones too. I will find some. FellowWikipedian 20:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Toronto Star has a huge section and seems to me to be the appropriate resource (local) though maybe because it assumes everyone knows where, e.g. Etobicoke is that might be a point against it.  But I don't want to look at the Star because their stylesheets fail to work properly with my browser.  moink 00:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: Please explain the rationale for removing this category. If you inspect the category, you'll see that it contains a variety of articles, some (or most) of which are not about "persons convicted of terrorism". I assume this category is being removed based on some concern about "POV", but that is not the intent of the categorization. This article is about the arrest of people charged under the "Terrorism" section of the Canadian Criminal Code; how can it not be included in :Category:Terrorism in Canada?  Outriggr 01:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see now that two out of three removals have been because of someone reverting too far back - but the point is still relevant. Outriggr 03:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Terrorism in Canada]]  

message: The following is horribly pov and needs to be reworded pronto:
: resulting in the arrest of 17 members of a Wahhabi Islamic terrorist cell who were caught in the planning and preparation of large scale terrorist attacks in Canada involving 3 tons of explosives.
They have not been found guilty of anything. No evidence has been presented in a court of law. And yet Wikipedia has declared them Islamic terrorists. It seems to me that certain editors, who lack a worked out understanding of what the legal presumption of innocence is, are adding their own pov (possibly anti-muslim) bias to this article. It needs to stop. Serpent-A 02:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added the word alleged if it will make you sleep better.--CltFn 03:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: IMNSHO, sprinkling "allegedly" never improves an article. "Allegedly" has an undercurrent of "alleged by people we disagree with". If we must have "alleged", best to restrict it to one use per sentence. In "allegedly belonging to an Islamic terrorist cell who were allegedly caught in the planning and preparation of large scale terrorist attacks in Canada involving 3 tons of explosives" I think the first "allegedly" suffices. Or better yet, how about "suspected of"? That's what this is about, anyway. 194.151.6.67 09:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A useful rule of thumb is to use alleged as a verb, not as an adverb. "The police alleged that Smith shot Jones and covered it up." vs. "Smith allegedly shot Jones ..." which gives it an insinuating tone. --Dhartung | Talk 10:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Presumption of innocence 

message: I removed an image which was tiny and whose license was disputed, and added an image from the Olkahoma City bombing, expressely for the purpose of showing the destruction capable of the chemical that was seized during these arrests. No part of this makes any judgement call of the guilt of the alleged perpetrators, and I honestly do give them the presumption of innocence. However, some people here are swinging the pendulum too far the other way. There is no doubt that this chemical (ammonium nitrate) was seized, as the authorities have made that clear and mention of this is an undisputed part of the article itself.
So, I believe there is a good chance that removal of this image is a POV edit itself. I won't re-add it, as I'm not willing to start a fight on this, but I also find it offensive that people assume I am making a judgement on those arrested, when I am not. --Kickstart70-T-C 06:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And the current image of the outline of a mosque means absolutely nothing and contributes nothing to the article. --Kickstart70-T-C 16:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To be honest, my first thought was, is it Muslim or not.  (My second was, "any Trinis"; sadly, the answer to both answers was yes.  I'm still hoping that the answer to the third question - is he in any way related to me - is a no).  So it would be wrong to say that the image has no value to the reader.  On the other hand, it is prejudicial - not only does it presume guilt, it presumes motive.  So I agree, it's inappropriate.  Guettarda 20:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: After spending a few minutes working out what you said ... (ok, Trinis, and your first few sentences are talking about the people involved, not the image) ... I'm not clear how that leads to the conclusion that "the image has [some] value to the reader". Ultimately, though, I'm glad you agree that it is inappropriate. Outriggr 23:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image for article 

message: I'll add a couple more sections to keep the article up to date.  There should one on Aftereffects, possibly combined with a paragraph on international media attention.  And, there really should be an in-depth timeline. Plus, pictures are really needed.  Hopefully, the Government of Canada website or Police will get some photos.  user:Theonlyedge.
:I caution the idea of a new section, since the investigation is still going on and there is enough to improve upon already. Just as a comparison, Wikipedia was fairly small on the morning or 9/11 - I could only imagine how long the article would be if after every day following the events, a new section was added. Perhaps the set-up of the article needs to be adjusted. There will inevitably be a 3 month trial, on top of sentencing and so forth (if found guilty) - I'd prefer to have a proper complete article which covers the background, investigation, arrests, trial, and conviction. 2006 Toronto terrorism trial is a better name for a start. --Jay(Reply) 23:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New sections 

message: "Six of the 17 men arrested have ties to the Al Rahman Islamic Center near Toronto, a Sunni fundamentalist Wahhabi mosque."
The source used doesn't say anything about the mosque, just that some of those arrested were attracted to Wahhabism.  BhaiSaab  talk 23:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it is mentioned and also it is quite obvious. --CltFn 03:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't you quote where it's mentioned in the article then? I don't happen to like Wahabbis either, but that statement is original research. BhaiSaab  talk 04:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  read the articles at the bottom, its in there in numerous places. --CltFn 04:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I read some of them but don't remember anything about that mosque being a Wahhabi fundamentalist mosque. Could you quote one for me?  BhaiSaab  talk 04:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inaccurate Statement. 

message: One of the newspapers, think it was the Sun, had a great write-up on the alleged "training camp" an hour outside Toronto, I'd love to see that fleshed out in our article a bit, with some facts and whatnot. Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 15:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. FellowWikipedian 22:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, the Ottawa sun is a rightwing and very alarmist newspaper, don't rely too much on it... Dan Carkner 02:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ottawa Sun?

message: This whole thing smacks of Guy Fawkes. Kid me not. 205.188.116.200 04:51, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe a comparison between that plot and this might be a good idea. 205.188.116.200 05:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Gunpowder, treason, and plot

message: Any source for listing them as one of the agencies involved?--211.129.114.147 15:46, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. FellowWikipedian 05:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Joint Task Force 2?

message: I don't like the use of the passive voice in the template: "five young offenders who cannot be named." That makes it sound as if mentioning their names will cause God to strike you down with a bolt of lightning. I think it should read "whose names have not been released because they were under 18 at the time of their alleged involvement." -- Mwalcoff 08:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a pretty standard way of talking about young offenders. It's not decreed by God that their names cannot be released, but it is decreed by law. It's also a quick way of making the point. --Gpollock 18:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a pretty standard way of talking about young offenders in Canada. In the U.S., they name juvenile suspects all the time. In fact, Wikipedia, being US-based, could name them with little fear of repercussion (see Richardson family murders). I think we need a better explainer for people not used to Canadian media law. -- Mwalcoff 20:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

text: My question now is not whether we should abide by the Canadian law but simply how we should explain the law. -- Mwalcoff 21:13, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm talking about the template, not the article. As I said above, I think it should read, "whose names have not been released because they were under 18 at the time of their alleged involvement." That would make it pretty clear. -- Mwalcoff 21:33, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case, the place to suggest it would have been Template talk:TorontoTerror, but I've been bold and done it.  Does the template seem OK now?  --HughCharlesParker (talk - contribs) 21:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep. Thanks. -- Mwalcoff 22:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "who cannot be named" 

message: Seems to me that Mubin Shaikh is just a rat, that was paid by the RCMP/CSIS to set up this group, lead them in the direction of conspiring to violence, arrange to purchase all the explosives then got paid for it. --Mista-X (talk) 05:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Mubin Shaikh had nothing to do with any explosives, in fact if you read interviews with him, he didn't know about the alleged explosives until the arrests were being carried out. The RCMP didn't tell him. So whatever your opinion of Shaikh, it should at least be grounded on facts. :) Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead)  00:19, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What? WTF does it matter if he "knew" about the explosives or not? He set up the operation and the same people he was working with gave access to the explosives. --Mista-X (talk) 15:18, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: CSIS setup

message: Much reporting on this topic is handicapped by a Canadian-wide publication ban, although I'll quote the judge who issued the 2006 ban that "The ban does not apply to information obtained outside the court". Any information I put on these pages is footnoted to its legitimate source, and nothing comes from any personal knowledge, discussions or attendance at legal hearings. Sherurcij (speaker for the dead)  03:42, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Publication Ban

message: Just a note that this article really needs to be updated, and I hate updating it because it's such a massive undertaking to make it a good article. But most importantly, I think it needs a section on the 7 released, and the 1 conviction -- none of which are really discussed in the article. Sherurcij (speaker for the dead)  23:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Note

message: Just note that the visuals on the PBS documentary seem to been "faked", since their "screenshots" of alleged investigations of the suspects uses the June 3rd photograph of Shareef at Durham Police Station as the "file photo" that the police were using during the investigation. Sherurcij (speaker for the dead)  03:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: PBS

message: This source was used in the article and i have substituted it with a {cn} tag because it does not meet basic requirements of WP:RS. It is not clear: Who is the author? Does the author and publisher have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy? Who is the publisher? Who owns the website?... IQinn (talk) 01:58, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Questionable source [http://thefacesbehind.net/ "thefacesbehind.net"]

message: This article is not overly clear on the five youths in the case.  It states there were five however the Template:TorontoTerror only lists four as does the article on the youths.  Is the 5th youth awaiting trial? All up to date sources I see state that six men are awaiting trial and this youth would make seven, so where is he? —jfry3 (talk) 15:40, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Saad Gaya was initially an "unnamed youth", but was later treated as an adult and his name released - hence the "confusion" about numbers. Sherurcij (speaker for the dead)  23:22, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks that helps. Also i left a message on Talk:Young offenders in 2006 Toronto terrorism case if you know the answer to that as well. -- jfry3 (talk) 00:01, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: 5 youths

message: I know this has already been discussed somewhat, but shouldn't the name of this article be "Toronto 18". Names of Wikipedia articles should be how they are commonly referred. "Toronto 18" may sound too casual, but the reality is that is how it's being called in the media. Just put "Toronto 18" in google compared to the name of this article. I know "Toronto 18" does direct you to this, but I still think it should be called this. BashBrannigan (talk) 18:12, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The name of the article should actually be "Ontario terrorism plot" not "Toronto", as it included Ottawa as well. UrbanNerd (talk) 00:40, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Name, again

message: In the intro it says they are 'alleged'. I don't know anyone who is in doubt anymore. Did the ringleader not plead guilty to all charges? 174.114.231.69 (talk) 14:16, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Close call.  Mixed case -- I think some are still awaiting trial, no?--Epeefleche (talk) 19:04, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Alleged

message: Absent consensus disagreement, I will set this up to archive all threads older than 21 days.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:47, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=577856
** In 2006 Toronto terrorism plot on 2011-05-26 02:17:09, 404 Not Found
** In 2006 Toronto terrorism plot on 2011-06-14 08:14:50, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 08:15, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=569571
** In 2006 Toronto terrorism plot on 2011-05-26 02:17:09, 404 Not Found
** In 2006 Toronto terrorism plot on 2011-06-14 08:14:59, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 08:15, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 2 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060605/1066828.asp
** In Fahim Ahmad on 2011-03-18 13:51:45, 404 Not Found
** In Jahmaal James on 2011-04-29 19:48:07, Socket Error: 'An existing connection was forcibly closed by the remote host'
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thread_title:  Dead link 3 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/pleads+guilty+Toronto+terror+plot/1566527/story.html
** In 2006 Toronto terrorism plot on 2011-05-26 02:17:18, 404 Not Found
** In 2006 Toronto terrorism plot on 2011-06-14 08:15:45, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 08:15, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 4 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.nationalpost.com/m/story.html?id=1960268&s=Home&p=3
** In 2006 Toronto terrorism plot on 2011-05-26 02:17:18, 404 Not Found
** In 2006 Toronto terrorism plot on 2011-06-14 08:15:51, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 08:16, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 5 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Somali+immigrant+admits+terror+role/2024806/story.html
** In 2006 Toronto terrorism plot on 2011-05-26 02:17:18, 404 Not Found
** In 2006 Toronto terrorism plot on 2011-06-14 08:15:59, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 08:16, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 6 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://voanews.com/english/2006-06-03-voa15.cfm
** In 2006 Toronto terrorism plot on 2011-05-26 02:17:21, 404 Not Found
** In 2006 Toronto terrorism plot on 2011-06-14 08:16:10, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 08:16, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 7 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.dawn.com/2006/06/04/top10.htm
** In 2006 Toronto terrorism plot on 2011-05-26 02:17:25, Socket Error: 'A connection attempt failed because the connected party did not properly respond after a period of time, or established connection failed because connected host has failed to respond'
** In 2006 Toronto terrorism plot on 2011-06-14 08:16:49, Socket Error: 'An existing connection was forcibly closed by the remote host'
--JeffGBot (talk) 08:17, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 8 

message: Here's an article, perhaps this should be mentioned in this article.  http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/842140--play-takes-sympathetic-look-at-toronto-18  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crocodilesareforwimps (talk • contribs) 15:36, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homegrown, play related to the Toronto 18 

message: How could they be inspired by the Fort Hood shooter and the 2009 christmas attemted bombing if their plot was in 2006?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.99.133.32 (talk) 15:50, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not what the article says, although I can see why a reader could be confused. It was extra information about Awlaki, not about the Ontario terrorists. I've removed almost all of the extraneous information (left in one part about 9/11 to give it some context) because it was confusing and unnecessary to this article - also not mentioned in source.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:25, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orrilia dates 

message: The lead sentence currently concludes these individuals were: "found to be Al-Qaeda members of an Islamic terrorist cell."
I question whether any of these individuals ever had a first-hand connection to al-Qaeda.  Even if this were true charges were dropped against a considerable fraction of the 18 who were initially suspects.  Geo Swan (talk) 09:44, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you're right. There's nothing in the article to support that they were Al-Qaeda members. At most it says they were inspired by Al-Qaeda. I think it should be removed. BashBrannigan (talk) 02:41, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: *  Geo Swan (talk) 14:35, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: "found to be Al-Qaeda members of an Islamic terrorist cell."

message: As a result of an AfD discussion, I have merged content from the Asad Ansari article and redirected from that article to a new subsection within this article.--Rpclod (talk) 14:36, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asad Ansari AfD Redirect 

message: This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Diannaa (talk) 22:21, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible copyright problem 

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