Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view/Archive 005

message: Crossfirism - the tendency of articles to give the false appearance of NPOV by including a criticism section, but then proceeding to include a point->counter-point debunking of all the criticism in said section. Something really needs to be said about this practice on Wikipedia, because offering criticism than trying to debunk as its presented is not terribly POV. This seems to be fairly common.	 
Another less common practice I've noticed is POV inclusionism. That is, people would rather keep inaccurate and very POV information in an article than have that information completely removed, even when they admit that it's blatantly POV. I'm not talking about when someone removes an entire paragraph because of a single bad sentence, I'm talking about selective removal of just POV sentences. Something about that has to do stop.	 
	 
There's also a related tendency for POV pushers to assume an expiration date on NPOV tag notices. I've seen several people say things like "I don't like seeing that NPOV tag up there for so long, so I'll just remove it even though the situation hasn't been addressed." People do this acknowledging an unfixed POV issue. It should be emphasized that NPOV tags have no expiration date and remain indefinitely until the dispute is resolved.
Nathan J. Yoder 23:21, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I know what you mean about crossfireism, but I think wikipedia is ok having POVs as long as they are attributed to the people that hold them. "An article which clearly, accurately, and fairly describes all the majors points of view will, by definition, be in accordance with Wikipedia's official "Neutral Point of View" policy. Each POV should be clearly labeled and described, so readers know: (a) Who advocates the point of view (b)What their arguments are (supporting evidence, reasoning, etc.)." The question is how to stylistically lay these POVs out so that one POV doesn't get "the last word" thus implying that that POV is the one the reader should adopt. Perhaps there is a way to write a section conclusion that says, "despite these contrary views, there is no consensus at this time." MPS 14:56, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is ok having POVs but only when facts can not be used in their place. See Wikipedia:Facts precede opinions. Bensaccount 14:55, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Anything sufficiently disputed requires consensus. If you have people oppposed to removing a tag, consensus wins. It's a fundamental building block of this entire project. DreamGuy 12:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hey, I now notice that Bensaccount referred above to an apparent Wikipedia guideline that he alone wrote himself! . Very funny, and I actually like that article, but his referal to it without mentioning that fact is very misleading nevertheless. Harald88 22:29, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crossfirism and POV inclusionism 

message: I'm working on the Neuro-linguistic Programming (NLP) page at the moment. At times, we are faced with quite a common view of what NLP is that doesn't seem to have any basis in what any NLP source (training/books) actually says. This means we're faced with a situation where we can genuinely say "Many people believe NLP to be XXXX", where XXXX is simply not mentioned. Now, how do we identify this kind of outside group without bias? If we say "NLP detractors" that really doesn't explain who they are (kind of like saying "Negative people have negative things to say"). "People who have heard of NLP but never done an NLP training or read a book on NLP believe..." might describe them, but also seems biased (and wordy). "People who misunderstand NLP"... well that group certainly wouldn't accept that label!, "The same people who criticise hypnosis criticise NLP" might be closer... but we are also making an association (this one happens to be a common one). How do we describe that kind of group fairly? Thanks GregA 23:16, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm new here so take my suggestion with loads of salt, but how about you treat the different views of what NPL is separately, and start off the article by defining the 'NPL' that will be discussed. Eg "There are differing views of what NPL is. This article will focus on the view of NPL according to references A,B,C... that NPL is XYZ... etc etc." and mention that the other views will be briefly reviewed afterwards. Then at the end review the other view(s) with whatever references exist if any? ant 14:02, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sensational views of complicated subject 

message: There is a minority of Wikipedians who feel so strongly about this problem that they believe Wikipedia should adopt a "scientific point of view" rather than a "neutral point of view." However, it has not been established that there is really a need for such a policy, given that the scientists' view of pseudoscience can be clearly, fully, and fairly explained to believers of pseudoscience.
It's obvious what the need is. If you don't have a Scientific Point of View, misleading articles describing Astrology or conspiracy theories show up. The editors of these often use NPOV as a excuse for not including criticism and skeptical views. Also, articles like John Edward or Sylvia Browne have talk pages saying they can't just go out and say the truth: that they're frauds. Someone could come to Wikipedia and assume that astrology is widely accepted simply due to the biased nature of the article. Hell, the article on people who claim they don't need to eat or drink (breatharianism) suggests this could be true when any
school kid could point out how false it is. And, also, pseudoscientists aren't actually scientists, so they do not apply to the  moronic 'minority point of view' rule. And that isn't a example of a 'no true Scotsman' fallacy as you there is a differance between actual scientists and pseudoscientists. --RPGLand2000 23:28, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pseudoscience 

message: The guideline states, "the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view". Apparently some editors are reading this as a way to justify writing the entire article from the majority's perspective. It should be known that the majority's view should not interfere with accurately depicting what the article's topic is really all about. For instance, astrology's article accurately identifies what the astrologers believe, without the critics' POV distorting this. Some editors might view the current phrase as saying the purpose of the article is to show the majority's view on the subject. You see how this can be bothersome? Instead of an article about pseuodoscience, we would end up with an article abotu what the majority thinks of pseudoscience. I believe this would interfere with the reader's ability to understand the topic. Imagine someone looking to write an essay on a certain topic, the way things can potentially end up would make wikipedia a bad source of information. Another problem with it is that the majority's view on a subject may change over time, but the original concept may not. glocks out 00:10, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Majority view

message: I added this section to WP:NPOV between "Pseudoscience" and "Religion":
:Science doesn't know everything, and in particular its results on this field are not representative of the field
:This is the opposite problem to the concern above, that lack of scientific belief is not, of itself, proof of incorrectness. This would be a form of argument from ignorance, the idea that because something is not yet proven, or so far has not been found true, or is not yet believed by all, it cannot be so. Wikipedia must also strive to avoid this error. So there will be cases where a matter is clearly unscientific and this should be made clear; cases where a matter is supported or thrown in doubt so far as we know by science, and this should be made clear; and cases where it is possible that science has not yet made full enquiry, or has not yet developed appropriate methods of testing, or the test conclusions are strongly contradicted by other significant evidence, or the matter is outside the purview of science, and if so, this should be made clear. 
:Examples of the latter may include some aspects of the Arts, religion and spirituality, philosophy and psychology, and new, controversial or emotive topics such as child abuse, and medical and alternative medicine treatments, that have perhaps not yet been fully tested in the traditional scientific manner. It is important to remember that for decades, up till the 1950's at least, hypnotherapy (to take one example) was largely treated as pseudoscience, because it was not easy to design a suitable test for it that met traditional scientific replicability and double-blind subject-object type criteria. Now it is recognized as clinically legitimate, by virtually every major professional body involved, and studied and practiced worldwide. (Psychologically related topics in particular can be notoriously difficult to "prove" in a scientific style, and new approaches have often been received as pseudoscience for some decadesor even received poor results in controlled testing until a respectable basis of case-history and professional usage builds up to demonstrate its value)
:Science has sometimes been defined as "that which is studied by scientists". It has immense value, but it is ultimately, also, a point of view. It too is capable of its own bias. Unavoidably, scientists must choose what they will study, how they will approach it, and what range of conclusions to consider. For some subjects and articles, this means it will have to be balanced with other points of view, rather than presumed to be the benchmark by which other views are measured, and each aproach described in an appropriate manner. Important though it is, relying upon science and its viewpoint as the only or main measure of value may at times be misleading. Sometimes the most that is known to be true is that the scientific view is one view of several and we cannot know yet which is ultimately "the right one" (if any). Admission of this uncertainty is appropriate for some articles. It is an important factor to be aware of.
:Practically, this means that lack of scientific support, or even scientific dismissal, will usually be relevant to and clearly described in an article. However where there are other serious points of view that must be disclosed and included fully  in a manner that presents them on their own terms, for neutrality purposes, then doing so is also an essential part of Wikipedia NPOV.
This was reverted with a request to explain here, and a comment as to length.
1/
The length is possibly an issue. However excessive length is an indicator to summarize (or for others to do so) - it is not a signal that a subject is incorrect. If the original text is too long, that is my flaw as a copy writer. Please edit and correct.
2/
The subject matter above, I argue, is a critical aspect of neutrality. Science is above all a methodology, conservative in nature. Its practitioners, whilst they attempt to be neutral, are human. Sometimes they fail. Sometimes their knowledge, or ability to test, or approach, is lacking. In some cases, formal scientific opinion is the consensus standard for a subject, and hence the one that guides the article. But crucially, for certain articles, there may be doubt whether science is in fact concluding appropriately, or representing other aspects of the matter fully. Of Plato's "the Beautiful, the Good and the True", only the latter, and only some aspects of it at that, can be tested for neutrality using formal scientific methodology, a methodology that itself must develop by trial and error when new fields become the subject of investigation. In others, the results found by science are disputed, sometimes rightly and sometimes wrongly.
My concern is to not give a back-door to pseudoscience. But there is a certain kind of editor to whom "what science says" is the only test of truth, much like a devout religionist. My contention is, there are articles where it is important to recognise that science has its own inherent point of view, and its own bias too. It is not always, merely by virtue of being scientific, the only important viewpoint, even if it dismisses other viewpoints. So there needs to be in WP:NPOV a reminder that whilst what is labelled as "scientific view" is important, it is not always the gold standard and last word just because it is a view by a scientist. 
Science is unusual because it's the one point of view where many people (who might see POV in a religion or philosophy) view science as being by definition neutral. It isn't. As a result, some subjects where science at present condemns or is ignorant, or the subject is new or difficult to test in the usual ways, the counter point of view may be and at times is stifled badly as a result. 
Examples and further detail provided upon request.
(Yes I know it's long. I'm sorry. Brevity did not come to me on this. Please read and consider, rather than critique length) FT2 17:38, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Science also has a POV