Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-04-05 Stephen Barrett/Archive 1

message: Mediation will commence within the next few days. anthony[cfc] 12:14, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Further note — comments here are removed; mediation starts now. anthony[review] 01:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note from Mediatior 

message: Good evening (GMT time) fellow Wikipedians, and thank you for agreeing to take part in this step of the Dispute Resolution chain. As mediator, it is my duty to remain completely neutral at all times - from full-out statements, to my tidying-up of the Mediation page. To this end, I drew up both a Neutrality and Mediation policy which I follow; these pages lay out my general approach to remaining bias, and my conduct and actions I normally undertake during mediation (respectively). Please do consult these pages, as they shed an enormous amount of light on my actions in the numerous Mediation Cabal cases I have undertaken.
If you have any questions during this case, please don't hesitate to get in contact with me, via:
*E-mail — Internal or externally at anthony [dot] cfc [at] gmail [dot] com;
*User talk — feel free to drop me a message at my talk page;
*IRC — although I'm most often at #wikipedia-checkuser, for general access I can be requested to be at #wikipedia-en (or any other channel at your discretion, including private chat).
Kind regards,anthony[review] 01:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediator Statement 

message: My general approach is that information about Stephen Barrett not being board certified should be included in the article:
*In my opinion, the main problem is that although the topic of Stephen Barrett's lack of board certification credentials has been an issue in the courtroom, in several lawsuits, covered by trade publications, organizational journals and newsletters, written about in studies concerning Stephen Barrett, and verified by Stephen Barrett himself at Wikipedia as User:Sbinfo,  several editors do not feel that any of these sources are good enough to mark this information as notable. Verifiable? Yes. We all seem to agree that this information is factual and has been verified to Wikipedia's satisfaction. It is the notability of this information which is the well-spring of this disagreement. My feeling is that given Stephen Barrett's notability -- (as a reknowned "quack buster" he critiques other doctors and therapists, healthcare remedies and practices, entire professions and universities and labels them as "quacks" or as "non-recommendable", he thus is dispensing healthcare and wellness advice to the masses) -- that Stephen Barrett's verifiable credentials are inherently notable. Regardless, I have provided numerous sources which I believe pass the standards of WP:RS. While this list isn't complete, it is a selection of the very best sources which I could find on the Web:
# Examining the Truth By Terry S. Friedmann, MD, ABHM and Sabina DeVita, EdD, DNM, RNCP with Karen Boren
# Watching the Quacker By Terry S. Friedmann, MD, and Karen Boren
# Anti-chiropractic groups spreading ‘stroke’ lies online World Chiropractic Alliance
# Stephen Barrett Loses Major Defamation Trial in Hometown Dynamic Chiropractic
# STEPHEN BARRETT, M.D., v. OWEN R. FONOROW, and INTELISOFT MULTIMEDIA, INC
# STEPHEN BARRETT, M.D., v JOSEPH MERCOLA, D.O.
# Quackwatch Founder Stephen Barrett Loses Major Defamation Case in his own Hometown Chiro.org
# Archives of Talk: Stephen Barrett post by User:Sbinfo (Stephen Barrett).
# Dr. Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch Exposed In Court Cases Canadian Lyme Disease Foundation
:Since it had been requested that a reliable secondary source be presented which discusses Barrett's lack of Board Certification, I have singled out the Dynamic Chiropractic (DC) article above in particular. It covers the story of one of Barrett's failed lawsuits and quotes his opposing council: ...he [Stephen Barrett] was, in fact, not a board-certified psychiatrist, because he had flunked the examination that was required to receive certification. Dynamic Chiropractic is a widely read publication both as a magazine and an online "zine" boasting a circulation of 60,000 . Their Article Submission Guidelines explicitly state: Your article will be reviewed by an in-house editorial panel. Sometimes an article may be sent to an outside reviewer for additional input. Additionally, their editorial page states: All articles submitted for publication are reviewed by our editors to ensure they meet our professional standards. Reliable sources - according to Wikipedia - are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. As an online publication, Dynamic Chiropractic has been the recipient of many awards. Its reliable publication process and "trustworthiness" is firmly established. DC was not directly involved (either as a party or witness) with the Barrett v. Koren trial covered in this article. In relation to the subject at hand, DC is considered authoritive. DC  passes WP:RS. Given that the information about Barrett's lack of board certification has been verified by Barrett himself (User:Sbinfo) and his lawyers in the links above, all these secondary sources need do is establish notability of the information. Being independent from the subject and the widest read publication of its kind, Dynamic Chiropractic's coverage of Barrett's lack of board certification qualifies this information as notable.
 
*What I would like to see changed/added would follow Sentence 1 of the Stephen_Barrett#Biography Biogrpahy section which reads: Barrett is a 1957 graduate of the Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons and completed his psychiatry residency in 1961. A new sentence should be added here (or the old phrasing should be reinstated - as this current dispute began when this phrasing was deleted). In effect, the new sentence or phrasing should minimally convey that 1) Stephen Barrett is not a board certified physician and might also convey 2) Stephen Barrett took the board certification exam in 1964 but did not pass the neurology half of the exam and 3) Stephen Barrett never retook the exam. Given that we know he took this exam in 1964 per User:Sbinfo and various other sources confirming the date, I feel that the sentence or phrasing would fit in naturally with the biogrpahy section following the first sentence which discusses him completing his residency in 1961. However, I am open to other placement suggestions.
Hopefully my opinion will be carefully considered,-- Levine2112 discuss 17:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unsigned articles are in no way an indication of sub-par quality. Many daily newspapers use unsigned articles. The super-reliable weekly 'The Economist' almost never publish signed articles. Unsigned is rather an indication of higher reliability than signed articles. Unsigned implicitly means that the entire publication stands behind the claims in the article.  MaxPont 23:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe your comment is in response to mine in 3.1.1: . You miss my point.  The issue is that Dynamic Chiropractic demonstrated a clear lack of publishing ethics, making the article unsuitable to use as a source.  They republished Negrete's press release without indicating they were doing so. (Strikeout: Dynamic Chiropractic is reliable source for Negrete's quotes.) --Ronz 16:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They did not republish the press release nor is it a slight rewrite of the press release. Both the press release and the DC news article reported on the same trial; they are no doubt similar. However, DC's article is different, including more information and less bias than the press release. I see no clear lack of publishing ethics. I see a reliable source. -- Levine2112 discuss 19:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We both agree then that this source, reliable or not, gives us the certification information in the context of this trial. Further, I'd like point out that this source only gives this information as part of a quote from Negrete.  So, the only reason for mentioning it in the article that this source supports is as a quote from Negrete, in the context of the Barrett v. Koren case. --Ronz 19:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: 4.    Disagree. I have several issues with the Dynamic Chiropractic reference. Although ChiroWeb, the site that hosts the online version of the magazine, has received some awards, I see no evidence that Dynamic Chiropractic itself has ever received any awards. The requirements for articles submitted to Dynamic Chiropractic do not indicate that peer-review is a normal procedure; they state: “Your article will be reviewed by an in-house editorial panel. Sometimes an article may be sent to an outside reviewer for additional input.”  Peer-reviewed journals do not send their manuscripts for outside review sometimes; they do so always. Furthermore, information on their in-house editorial staff does not indicate that they have any expert credentials.. The article does not strike me as balanced reporting but rather a very one-sided retelling of the case from the defending legal team’s perspective (i.e. Negrete, Turner, and Koren). No quotes were included to represent the other side’s position. But more importantly, the article only quotes Koren as saying that the Barrett was “delicensed”, which seems to conflict with the fact that Barrett’s licensing status is “Active-Retired”, and quotes Negerete as saying that Barrett failed his board exam.  All this artilce proved to me is that Negrete, a partisan critic of Barrett's, thinks the issue of licencing/failed board exams is noteworthy but it does not convince me that the issue is noteworthy for the WP article Rhode Island Red 17:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No one has claimed that DC is a peer reviewed journal. Only that it has an acceptable level of editorial integrity. (In line with similar trade publications.) Yes, the article in not perfectly NPOV but how many news media could pass the same rigorous examiniation for NPOV that articles on Wikipedia have to withstand?  MaxPont 17:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Levine2112|Levine2112]] 

message: Disputes, questions or comments of the above section by other users should be placed here
#Agree  I won't repeat the arguments made above.  I agree with the material presented above and with the recommended additions. RalphLendertalk 18:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unsigned articles are in no way an indication of sub-par quality. Many daily newspapers use unsigned articles. The super-reliable weekly 'The Economist' almost never publish signed articles. Unsigned is rather an indication of higher reliability than signed articles. Unsigned implicitly means that the entire publication stands behind the claims in the article.  MaxPont 23:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe your comment is in response to mine in 3.1.1: . You miss my point.  The issue is that Dynamic Chiropractic demonstrated a clear lack of publishing ethics, making the article unsuitable to use as a source.  They republished Negrete's press release without indicating they were doing so. (Strikeout: Dynamic Chiropractic is reliable source for Negrete's quotes.) --Ronz 16:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They did not republish the press release nor is it a slight rewrite of the press release. Both the press release and the DC news article reported on the same trial; they are no doubt similar. However, DC's article is different, including more information and less bias than the press release. I see no clear lack of publishing ethics. I see a reliable source. -- Levine2112 discuss 19:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We both agree then that this source, reliable or not, gives us the certification information in the context of this trial. Further, I'd like point out that this source only gives this information as part of a quote from Negrete.  So, the only reason for mentioning it in the article that this source supports is as a quote from Negrete, in the context of the Barrett v. Koren case. --Ronz 19:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: 4.    Disagree. I have several issues with the Dynamic Chiropractic reference. Although ChiroWeb, the site that hosts the online version of the magazine, has received some awards, I see no evidence that Dynamic Chiropractic itself has ever received any awards. The requirements for articles submitted to Dynamic Chiropractic do not indicate that peer-review is a normal procedure; they state: “Your article will be reviewed by an in-house editorial panel. Sometimes an article may be sent to an outside reviewer for additional input.”  Peer-reviewed journals do not send their manuscripts for outside review sometimes; they do so always. Furthermore, information on their in-house editorial staff does not indicate that they have any expert credentials.. The article does not strike me as balanced reporting but rather a very one-sided retelling of the case from the defending legal team’s perspective (i.e. Negrete, Turner, and Koren). No quotes were included to represent the other side’s position. But more importantly, the article only quotes Koren as saying that the Barrett was “delicensed”, which seems to conflict with the fact that Barrett’s licensing status is “Active-Retired”, and quotes Negerete as saying that Barrett failed his board exam.  All this artilce proved to me is that Negrete, a partisan critic of Barrett's, thinks the issue of licencing/failed board exams is noteworthy but it does not convince me that the issue is noteworthy for the WP article Rhode Island Red 17:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No one has claimed that DC is a peer reviewed journal. Only that it has an acceptable level of editorial integrity. (In line with similar trade publications.) Yes, the article in not perfectly NPOV but how many news media could pass the same rigorous examiniation for NPOV that articles on Wikipedia have to withstand?  MaxPont 17:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: Briefly, I think that the notability of Barrett's licensing and board certification are sufficient that they should be mentioned briefly and carefully, not in the lead, but in the "Biography" section. I'm a little leery of using the comments of a Wikipedia account -  - on a Wikipedia talk page as a source. I would favor something like the following:
Stephen Barrett holds an active medical license () but is not board-certified in psychiatry.
The reference for "not board-certified" could be one of the lawsuit depositions, I suppose. I should note I don't feel strongly one way or the other, but that would be my preference. MastCell Talk 18:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:MastCell|MastCell]] 

message: Disputes, questions or comments of the above section by other users should be placed here
#Agree with User:MastCell, in the interest of having some peace. Although I tend to agree with User:Ronz that this particular aspect of the disputes on Stephen Barrett might be resolved here without resolving the underlying issues, this resolution of this issue seems reasonable to me.  References to his having failed the boards would have to have come from a secondary source who is not a party in a lawsuit with Dr. Barrett — a court document would be acceptable as a primary source if a secondary source can be found.  — Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 00:34, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: My general approach is to change the editing environment in Stephen Barrett from one of disruptive and tendentious editing to one more in line with Wiki policies and guidelines.  In this regard, the certification issue is just one of many, though it's one of the older ones with discussions going back well over a year:
*In my opinion, the main problem is that while the editing environment, though decidedly better than early this year, is still tendentious.  I fear we may solve this certification problem without making any changes to the editing environment.  That said, the certification problem is simply one of finding verifiable, reliable sources that show the information is important enough for inclusion in the article, and to what extent.  Additionally, these sources, if any are found, must also meet the criteria for the biography of a living person.  Currently, none of the sources offered meet these criteria, and the discussion repeatedly swings between why the sources suffice and why the policies and guidelines discussed do not apply.
*Unless I'm overlooking something, the article does not currently mention Barrett's certification and hasn't since late last year.  What I would like to see are other editors explaining the policies and guidelines well enough so that we can settle this issue for the sources we have available, and give us a better understanding so we don't spend another 500+ edits over one month on such a small issue as this.
Hopefully my opinion will be carefully considered,Ronz 21:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Ronz|Ronz]] 

message: Disputes, questions or comments of the above section by other users should be placed here.
#Agree with User:Ronz, see comments above.  A significant portion of the discussion(s) was over why a poor source was suitable rather than finding better sources.  Shot info 01:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: I believe that these links show that board certification was not something that was regularly done during Dr. Barrett's career:
*;
*.
I really believe that using the information about the board certification is not the right information to put into the article because it's not important nor notable.  The links show that the testing under went a lot of changes and that over an eight year period a lot of Dr's also did not pass this tests.  I now disagree with this informations importance for the article.
Hopefully my opinion will be carefully considered,Crohnie 22:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: per discussion, I have refactored Crohnie's comments into a more organised form — anthony[review] 01:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Crohnie|Crohnie]] 

message: I have only been involved in this for a couple of days and my comments will focus on what I believe is the remaining contentious issue: how to handle and evaluate WP:RS and WP:N 
To judge whether a source is Reliable and Notable has to be adapted by the Context. For example: The more controversial and unexpected a claim is, the higher demands for Reliable Sources to support it. If on the other hand there are primary sources to support the claim, the bar for inclusion can be lowered. Several sources supporting the same claim will also reduce the bar for determining if each source is RS.
WP:RS does put some weight on the demand for neutrality but it does not automatically exclude sources that have a POV. There is a significant difference between a traditional publication with a POV or an editorial policy (99% of all news media) and the fringe unreliable self-published and often extremist sources that we should try to keep out of Wikipedia. 
One conclusion from the arguments above is that we can’t make a binary demarcation between good sources that are RS&N and the rejected crap-sources. There is a large grey zone. For some extreme claims even the New York Times and Washington Post would not suffice. ( e.g.: unnamed government officials reveal that George Bush is a secret Satanist) 
For news about narrow and industry-specific topics the relevant sources are the industry publications. Of all news, 
99.9% are never reported in main-stream media because they are not relevant for the mainstream readers. The absence of reporting about Barrett’s failed board exam in large daily newspapers is not ground for excluding this fact. The Barrett WP article is an article about a narrow topic.
As I see it, if it can be established that Dynamic Chiropractic is a Notable and Reliable source it is obvious that the fact about Barrett should be included in Wikipedia. 
I did an extensive compilation of facts and arguments to support the Notability and Reliablity of Dynamic Chiropractic on the Barrett Talk Page. Reposted here: 
Dynamic Chiropractic has been published since 1983 (Library of Congress records) with 26 issues per year and is the number one trade publication for the Chiropractic profession. 
. The magazine has a circulation of 60.000 
Dynamic Chiropractic is a professional trade magazine and not a scientific peer reviewed journal. However it is notable enough for the community of Life Science academics to sometimes be mentioned or used as a reference. A search for “Dynamic Chiropractic” in the database PubMed 
 returned 39 articles
:A search in a subset of the PubMed/NIH databases with fulltext access (PMC ), gave three articles explicitly mentioning or refering to Dynamic Chiropratic (inserted below)'. 
In spite of the rather narrow industry focus of the magazine, Dynamic Chiropractic is sometimes quoted and mentioned by main-stream media. A few examples are provided below (sources available in Factiva).
The Washington Post (20 Dec 1987) "Candidates Barraged With Questionnaires"  Article about questions to political candidates from various stakeholders in society. The questions from Dynamic Chiropractic get a paragraph. 
Los Angeles Times (27 Jun 1990) "Church Seeks Influence in Schools, Business, Science Series: The Scientology story" About controversies around front organizations for the church of Scientology.  Dynamic Chiropractic mentioned as a newspaper resisting this infiltration.
Journal of Nutrition (1 Nov 2006) "Glucosamine Supplementation Accelerates Early but Not Late Atherosclerosis in LDL Receptor-Deficient Mice"
Dynamic Chiropractic used as a reference of a “lay” publication.
New York Law Journal (25 Jan 2005) "Litigation Review; Black Box Evidence; Civil Implications" 
A Dynamic Chiropractic article used as a reference.
Austin American-Statesman (15 Oct 1993) "What they’re reading Series: The latest word" About what five Austin chiropractors are reading. Dynamic Chiropractic mentioned.
The Sacramento Bee (8 Mar 2007) "Chaos on chiropractic board; The governor's appointees -- including ex-bodybuilding chums -- accused of 'coup.'" 
Article about controversies around gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger. The “industry magazine Dynamic Chiropractic” mentioned three times in article. 
The Sacramento Bee (9 Mar 2007) “Governor fuels board furor; He's criticized for saying chiropractic panel should represent the industry”  More about controversies around gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger. The “industry magazine Dynamic Chiropractic” mentioned.
Journal of the American Dietetic Association (1 Aug 2000) "Provision of nutrition counseling, referrals to registered dietitians, and sources of nutrition information among practicing chiropractors in the United States" 
A study conducted by Dynamic Chiropractic used as a reference.
The News & Observer (18 Feb 2007) "Law favoring chiropractors, Black's doing, might not last" 
Dynamic Chiropractic mentioned. 
Argus Leader (31 Oct 2004) "Wider acceptance fuels chiropractor boom" 
Section about how to choose a Chiropractor drawn from Dynamic Chiropractic 
Roanoke Times & World News (8 Sep 2003) "Host for Cheney’s visit is called 'effective fund-raiser'"  About a philanthropist donating funds to Chiropractic, mentioned in Dynamic Chiropractic
:Additional articles from the database PMC:
:Am J Public Health. 2002 Dec; 92(12): 2001–2009.  “Chiropractic Health Care in Health Professional Shortage Areas in the United States”
:Chiropr Osteopat. 2007; 15: 4. “On the reliability and validity of manual muscle testing: a literature review”
:BMC Complement Altern Med. 2003; 3: 3.  “Searching biomedical databases on complementary medicine: the use of controlled vocabulary among authors, indexers and investigators”
Hopefully my opinion will be carefully considered MaxPont 14:01, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don’t understand Ronz at all here. Or maybe Ronz don’t understand me. Here is an example to illustrate my point: Assume two RS (New York Times + Washington Post) claim that George Bush is a secret Satanist with no supporting primary sources. If so, the WP community has to decide where to draw the line for inclusion. My guess is that it is a borderline exclusion. If you add primary sources in the example (documents, court records, photos, etc.) the bar for inclusion can be lowered and the borderline exclusion will tilt towards inclusion. I don’t see why this example is contradicted by the WP Wikilinks Ronz supplied. MaxPont 17:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The examples you give are all primary sources.  If a source makes a claim unsupported by other sources as to why that claim is made, then it's a primary source for that claim.  --Ronz 17:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not claim that Dynamic Chiropractic was indexed as a scientific medical journal. (Thanks for correcting me about PubMed. I did a new search in PMC and found three articles. There might be more articles in PubMed but as I don't have full-text access I can't say anything about that.)  MaxPont 16:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:MaxPont|MaxPont]] 

message: Disputes, questions or comments of the above section by other users should be placed here.
#Disagree.  Specifically, MaxPont asserts, "If on the other hand there are primary sources to support the claim, the bar for inclusion can be lowered."  This is actually the reverse of the policies and guidelines concerning primary versus other sources.  Because of this, I'm not sure what MaxPont means by "primary sources."  See WP:ATT#Primary_and_secondary_sources and Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary.2C_secondary.2C_and_tertiary_sources.  Additionally, MaxPont's statement ignores WP:NPOV.  Inclusion of information is done by first finding reliable sources, and second by assessing the sources available to determine proper weight for that information. --Ronz 15:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don’t understand Ronz at all here. Or maybe Ronz don’t understand me. Here is an example to illustrate my point: Assume two RS (New York Times + Washington Post) claim that George Bush is a secret Satanist with no supporting primary sources. If so, the WP community has to decide where to draw the line for inclusion. My guess is that it is a borderline exclusion. If you add primary sources in the example (documents, court records, photos, etc.) the bar for inclusion can be lowered and the borderline exclusion will tilt towards inclusion. I don’t see why this example is contradicted by the WP Wikilinks Ronz supplied. MaxPont 17:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The examples you give are all primary sources.  If a source makes a claim unsupported by other sources as to why that claim is made, then it's a primary source for that claim.  --Ronz 17:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not claim that Dynamic Chiropractic was indexed as a scientific medical journal. (Thanks for correcting me about PubMed. I did a new search in PMC and found three articles. There might be more articles in PubMed but as I don't have full-text access I can't say anything about that.)  MaxPont 16:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: The policy discussion seems to involve (it changes) the granularity (fact, phrase, sentence, paragraph, section) level of WP:RS and application of the WP:V and WP:RS (now rich, synchronous subset descriptions 
in WP:ATT) policies for combined primary and secondary sources facts with different individual degrees of WP:V & WP:RS to establish, if nothing else, a compositely Notable, WP:V, WP:RS fact, in this case the lack of a common, often presumed professional credential as a single fact. To deny multiple sources, as above, should require a recitation of the objections under historical Reliable Sources policies compared to specific granularity level.  At the time I previously worked on this (ca Dec-Jan), there was referenced support for WP:NOT  requiring at the topic and subtopic levels that appeared to correspond to the article as the topic and the section heading (*not* at the sentence or phrase level) and that primary facts could be used augmentatively.
My review of the Michael Langan article is that the situation is quite different. Jimbo seems to have granted a complaining subject of the article, an editor (and subject) article banned per RFAR from his own article, some BLP relief that apprears to have little public impact, what ever policy Jimbo cited, perhaps finding some merit in this part of the exchange..--I'clast 10:10, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:I'clast | I'clast]] 

message: #Disagree.  You ignore WP:NPOV, which is not only official policy, but, "a fundamental Wikipedia principle."  This dispute here is about points of view: the pov of editors here, the pov of Negrete and Bolen, the pov of the various sources we have (reliable or not). The only way we can possibly address all these points of view is by careful application of WP:V, to filter the sources to only ones appropriate for Wikipedia use, and of WP:NPOV, to properly address the disputed information in a way that it can be treated neutrally. --Ronz 15:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion