Talk:Jon Hess (fighter)

message: This article is almost word for word from the previously deleted S.A.F.T.A. article. I created it because I feel that Hess is significant enough to warrant his own article, having competed in very early MMA events, and gained a certain degree of infamy with MMA fans. Additionally, the content of the article is more relevant to Mr. Hess than it is to S.A.F.T.A., which if I am not mistaken was the main reason for the prior article's deletion. --EmperorFedor 05:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the original SAFTA article had only a small blurb about Hess. SAFTA was deleted as not notable in the martial arts world. This article needs to be re-written, as it's full of unsourced and POV statements, and I suspect original research as well. --Mista-X 21:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree completely that the article needs to be rewritten, or at the very least seriously revised due to unsourced information, etc. I'm the one that originally added the majority of the "citation needed" labels, and removed some of the more blatantly POV statements that were in the first article. As for the original SAFTA article only having a small blurb about Hess, as I said, this is very nearly word for word from the original article. I had copied and saved the whole of the previous article for my own personal reference as it was in the process of being deleted, and simply put it up with some very minor revising as Hess' page, as I was under the impression that the major objection to the SAFTA article was that it contained too little relevant information about SAFTA, and too much information about Hess. I'll do my best to better the article, but unfortunately I don't have very much knowledge about him or SAFTA beyond the sourced statements already in the article, so anyone who is able to provide further, VERIFIABLE information on the subject would be appreciated. EmperorFedor 02:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've cleaned up the article somewhat, removed most of the obviously biased info, etc but I think that it still needs work. As I said, anyone who can provide citable information on the subject of Jon Hess or SAFTA, please do. It'd be especially appreciated if someone could provide a source that confirms that Vitor Belfort did indeed refuse a rematch with Hess. EmperorFedor 02:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the NPOV tag, because I believe that with the removal of the biased information, the article is now in keeping with Wikipedia policies on neutrality. If anyone disagrees, please feel free add the tag again, or to edit the article to make it more neutral. EmperorFedor 03:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: I've removed the reference to the eye rake...if you can find a source for it, by all means please repost it, but please refrain from the "is considered" part, as those are considered to be weasel words, and in any case it should be clear enough that an eye rake is fighting dirty, at least in the context of the UFC. I'd also like to thank you for contributing to this article. :) I wasn't sure how many people would be interested in doing so, considering Hess' relative obscurity and overall dislike by the MMA community. --EmperorFedor 22:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The eye rake can be seen in UFC 5, it also shows replays over and over and I believe it is also mentioned online. --Mista-X 06:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

text: That's all very interesting and POV; not too mention you have no sources to back up any of your claims. I have to disagree with Hess fight against Anderson being exciting (and if it's in UFC greatest hits, source it). What I saw was Anderson hold his own against a much larger, stronger opponent with a reach advantage, and Hess swinging his arms like one would expect a cave man, baboon or orangutan to do in a fight, and when Hess got in a clinch with Anderson because none of his strikes hit properly (which is why he fractured his hand so easily) he had to rake the eyes in order to try and take Anderson down; which he still almost failed in doing. That's what I see, but I'll leave that out of the article. The rest of what's in the article is completely fair and as far as I can tell true. --Mista-X (talk) 00:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Concerning the eye rake

message: ::Source it? Look up the video.
It's not my job to source material you want to add to the article. You look it up.
::"Anderson hold his own" how by not landing any punches? Andreson didn't land any clean punches or kicks during the whole fight. Not one! He was totally outclassed.
Anderson held his own by exchanging blows with Hess, getting in to a clinch and even taking him down at one point. Hess has to resort to an eye rake when he was frustrated by not knowing what to do in the clinch. This can be seen clearly in the video, I invite anyone to take a look. There is absolutely no question that Anderson's eyes were raked by Hess.
::Hess didn't fracture his hand he injured his forearm by hitting Anderson on his neck and back of his head when Hess resumed the standing position.
Anyone who understands fisticuffs would know not to hit the hard parts of the body, or this is what will happen. Elbows, the head and your opponents fists are parts that will break your hand. This is what I mean by Hess had no control, he took wild swings, which maybe about 5 out of every 10 actually hit Anderson. The only reason Anderson couldn't hit back was reach.
::Hess strikes were delivered properly they are Kung Fu punches v. Karate/boxing which are straighter.
Maybe Kung-Fu invented by a retarded monkey. Only a monkey would be smarter and at least use open hand strikes to hit harder parts of the body.
 
::Anderson was taken down twice BY PUNCHES!
Actually, Anderson got the first take down; Hess then had him in guard from the back. The second time from clinch Hess had to rake Anderson's eyes before being able to take him down. He then tried a really stupid knee drop, a move I've only seen pro-wrestlers do, which never works on someone fully conscious as they will surely block it or move. Especially dropping on them from their legs like Hess did and Anderson easily blocked in with his knees/legs.
::Anderson was such a tough guy and he could take a beating. After the fight Anderson went the hospital from all the punches, kicks and elbow strikes landed on him. Anderson was 86 and 0 in bareknuckle fights and didn't know how to lose.
Source it, and source it. As for Anderson's "bare-knuckle" record, I have no idea how that fact could be verified. Lots of people lied about their shit in the old UFC, like Kimo Leopoldo and Joe Son.
::Hess has said that Anderson was his tuffest opponent and Hess has over 15 challenge no rule victories, a ufc victory, and fought Vitor Belfort.
Source these "15 challenge no rule victories". As for the match with Belfort, I donno if we should call it a fight. As one poster described on bullshido, it looked more like Belfort beating on a piece of beef. Kinda like Rocky Balboa only on the ground.
As for this version of the article supposedly being "unfair", that's your POV. I'm just interested in martial arts and MMA. I don't hate Hess, or care about him. My personal of him is that he is a lousy fighter, he just happens to be a really big guy and that's why he beat Anderson. If you feel the article is not factual, you are welcome to add the facts and source them. If you feel the wording isn't fair, then please remove weasel words, etc. However wikipedians won't let you write a flatter piece for Hess. --Mista-X (talk) 00:48, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please keep your contributions civil and avoid personal attacks. Your conduct is very far out of line, and you have been reported for it. Your editing this article is a clear conflict of interest, and you are being quite disruptive. Please try to contribute positively, and possibly to other areas of Wikipedia. --Cheeser1 (talk) 23:05, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Response

message: I added an unreferenced tag due to there being no sources cited. MastaFighta (talk) 02:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are more than enough citations in the article, someone simply removed the bottom portion of the article before your edit. I put it back. --Mista-X (talk) 02:57, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Sure he did; that's why Hess ended up on his back with Anderson in his guard, right? --Mista-X (talk) 01:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreferenced Tag 

message: 1.Jon Hess took the fight on 4 days notice and out of shape.
2.Belfort claimed to be "Victor Gracie" and said he was Royce' younger brother.
3.Hess had previously challenged Royce Gracie and Belfort called hime out under a lie.
4.Hess has challenged Belfort to a rematch and said he will KO Belfort(which he will).
5.Belfort was using steriods according to Hess.
===Sources===
Let's see your sources for the above. --Mista-X (talk) 20:38, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Concerning Vitor Belfort

message: Let's see your sources for the above. --Mista-X (talk) 20:38, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: I've tagged this article with three tags due to issues:
#COI - conflict of interest. One of the editors of this article appears to be its subject. This is a clear conflict of interest, especially when "[his] memory of... events" is being suggested as reliable sourcing. It is also unfortunate that he is threatening other users with violence - this is highly unacceptible.
#RS - reliable sources. The sources in this article appear to be two blogs. They are not reliable sources, because they are self published and lack authority (and possibly also lack independence from the subject).
#N - notability. The lack of reliable independent sources may indicate that this person does not meet notability guidelines. These are community-accepted standards that tend to establish whether or not an article should exist on Wikipedia. If such sources cannot be found, this article may be deleted.
I suggest that users who have been editing this article discuss how to address these three issues. --Cheeser1 (talk) 22:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with everything you've noted except about the sources, sherdog.com is definately not a blog, but a major source of MMA related news and has a large database of MMA fighters from the early days of the sport onwards. MMAonTap I don't know much about, but that source has to do with Vitor Belfort and not Hess. --Mista-X (talk) 03:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm still not entirely sure it meets WP:RS - does its content really have an editorial review process that guarantees fact-checking, reliability, independence, etc.? It may be a large source of information, but I'm not sure if this is really journalism or just a big website. I'm wondering if anyone can address the most pressing issue: why is this person notable? He appears to have a record of a whole two fights, which doesn't seem like alot. His coverage on this large website (self-published or not) seems pretty minor. --Cheeser1 (talk) 04:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Sherdog has it's own wikipedia entry. --Mista-X (talk) 16:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So does The National Enquirer. That doesn't make it a reliable source. Even the entry Sherdog presents it as simply a large website, not a source of credible journalism, reporting, or anything of the sort. --Cheeser1 (talk) 17:08, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, they now have an agreement with ESPN though, isn't that significant enough? --Mista-X (talk) 04:16, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what this "agreement" means. I could get an agreement with ESPN to do something, but unless that agreement proves that Sherdog is a reliable source... you see where I'm going with this? Read WP:RS and try to figure out if it meets the criteria, and how. These other arguments are too tangential/happenstance. --Cheeser1 (talk) 05:13, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as Sherdog is concerned, the majority of Wikipedia articles on Mixed Martial Artists reference Sherdog, so it seems to be generally accepted as a reliable source (especially given that no other such resource exists concerning MMA. If Sherdog isn't a reliable source, then next to everything written on wikipedia concerning Mixed Martial Arts is suspect, given that a good portion of the information comes from Sherdog). The Sherdog/ESPN partnership mentioned is that Sherdog is now providing information to ESPN on fight records and is also providing ESPN with MMA related podcasts. I won't comment on the PoV dispute, as I don't feel that I can stay sufficiently neutral on the subject. --EmperorFedor (talk) 10:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem tags 

message: I have proposed a discussion on this here. --Mista-X (talk) 17:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sherdog

message: This article should be deleted as it is based on lies and offensive opinions of Mista- X. No one was threatened with violence however someone was challenged to a match in effort to get him to stop defaming the charactor of the subject. There is a significant difference. 
And I believe anyone commenting on UFC 5 should have a least watched the show.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlhess (talk • contribs) 17:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Delete the article

message: There are several links to this page from Lacrosse articles, e.g. New Jersey Pride. Is this the same Jon Hess, or do we need to disambiguate these links? If it's the same person, we should include some info about lacrosse on this page. If not, I think we should move this page to Jon Hess (martial artist) and create a dab page for Jon Hess (director) and Jon Hess (lacrosse player). Pburka (talk) 18:50, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: At first glance, they appear to be different people. --Cheeser1 (talk) 19:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lacrosse? 

message: "Hess's offense consisted of jamming his fingers into Anderson's eyes in a raking motion while grappling each other in a standing position. " 
This is not true. Hess punched Anderson and didn't grapple even when Anderson got into a clinch Hess landed an elbow strike to Anderson's back and then a hammer strike to Anderson's kidney.
Fish hooking was not a banned tactic until after UFC 6 in response to Tank Abbot's use of this tactic.
The UFC billed itself as "NO Rules" not just to generate hype but rather because there were no rules in the UFC 1-5! There were two offenses in which you could receive a fine for($1,000 per infraction). These were eye attacks and biting. Hess received two fines from John McCarthy(ref) for attacking Anderson's eyes while Anderson was in Hess' guard position. 
Vitor Belford billed himself as "Victor Gracie" in SuperBrawl 2 as anyone can clearly hear on the video of the fight. 
Belfort was challenged by Hess to a rematch in the sherdog article cited as a source for this article. Hess challenged him, "Winner take all". Belfort has refused a rematch eventhough Hess fought him on short notice. I believe this is a relavant point that should be included in this article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hessisthebest (talk • contribs) 20:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Offensive tactics

message: Since the AfD has closed with no delete, but the article is still in poor shape, I would like to undertake some cleanup effort.  However, before I start, I want to make sure that I am working with a clean, non-COI version of the article to start with.  As far as I can tell, the COI tag was introduced due to contributions from User:Jlhess and before that, User:Hessisthebest.  However, it appears to me that all such contributions were reverted, and the current revision of the article has no COI problems.  Am I correct in these conclusions? gnfnrf (talk) 16:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems that way to me.  Thanks for taking this effort on. JERRY talk contribs 19:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  COI issues solved? 

message: I must ask for comments on the recent reversion.  As the article stands, the statement does not match the information in the source.  If you prefer this version, please source it differently. gnfnrf (talk) 01:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverting?