Talk:Dwarves in Middle-earth

message: "he Dwarvish language, called Khuzdûl and created by Aulë, sounds much like Hebrew, and one may draw the similarities between the Dwarves and the Jews even farther."
I am curious as to how Dwarvish is like Hebrew...as far as I recall there is very little Dwarvish in the books, and Tolkien just didn't create a full language for them. And what other similaritiess are there with "the Jews"? Adam Bishop 05:48, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: The Dwarvish language is (IIRC) based on three-letter roots, like Hebrew and Arabic. Also, some folks think "Khazad" sounds like "Khazar". The obvious antisemitic stereotypes get in there, too. *shrug* It's overanalyzing, is what it is. --FOo 15:02, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed it from the article. Notes on how Khuzdul resembles Hebrew may be at place in Khuzdul, not here. And we don't want any comparisons between Dwarves and Jews: gem hoarding, beards, etc.—could get nasty fast. — Jor 15:13, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Tolkien's own opinion on the matter is now in the article. The letter was to the person in charge of the Lord of the Rings radio dramatization, and the forn of the reply, especially the part about accents, does make me think that the question was about similarities between Khuzdul and Hebrew. — No-One Jones (talk) 15:18, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Removed to Khuzdul. Speculation on how Dwarves resemble Jews is not wanted here I believe, as it was mainly a philological musing by JRRT. — Jor 15:19, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: No quarrel with that. — No-One Jones (talk) 15:20, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: After looking it up in Letters and Appendix F, I've updated the article with information the term dwarrows and the origin of the term dwarves. Dwarrows is never used to refer to Tolkien's Dwarves, so I removed it from the opening of the article and did not put it in bold text.  --Aranel ("Sarah") 21:22, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled discussion

message: Moved back to the plural, for consistency with other articles. (And for the vast majority of links)  22:02, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved back 

message: Just what Book and comment states that female Dwarves have beards?  I've read they're so alike in appearance does not mean they do have them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 143.200.225.101 (talk • contribs) .
"For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike." - The War of the Jewels, The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Naugrim and the Edain --CBD ☎ ✉ 15:59, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I remember reading it in Lord of the Rings. - Mike Rosoft 12:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: "It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of the other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone.'" ROTK Appendix A III Durin's folk.
Mike Rosoft 10:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

text: And you can add to this that, in The Hobbit, Bilbo reflects that he couldn't be mistaken for a dwarf, even in a dwarven cloak, because he had no beard. If female dwarves in male dwarf clothes cannot easily be distinguished from males, but the beardlessness of hobbits means they can, it seems pretty clear the females must have beards. Daibhid C 19:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Or else Bilbo subscribed to the stone theory. —Tamfang (talk) 20:20, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 09:56, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Female Dwarves beards 

message: I'm fairly sure seven magical hammers were never mentioned in the Silmarillion, much less hammers which could summon Aule(!), and as far as I can tell this is the only page on the net that mentions such items. Looks a bit bogus to me.
(I guess it might fit with some of the weird stuff in earlier drafts of Tolkien's tales, but in that case I don't think it would be canon...)
VERY Bogus.  I can't even recall such a reference in HoME (History of Middle Earth) by Christopher Tolkien.   Without verification, this needs to go.
02:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seven Hammers? 

message: With several recent revisions, all screenshots from Peter Jackson's movies were removed from the article, first by CharlesMartel, who completely deleted "Adaptations" section, and then by Davémon, with a claim that they "fall out of scope of a limited number of web-resolution screenshots for identification and critical commentary on the film" (). I suppose he referred to the inappropriate image of Narsil which was indeed useless here, and so reinstasted "Adaptations" section, adding some more commentary (any further input would be appreciated). I have also removed CJRT's map of Beleriand – its inclusion into Beleriand article is debatable, and here it is surely prohibited - and the image of a "generic" dwarf – the author of the latter intended no connection with Tolkien's works, and its usage here would be just "unencyclopedic".
I have also rearranged sections, grouping together all in-universe material and moving "Concept and creation" to follow it. The reasons I have already described in a similar discussion that I raised at the WikiProject Middle-earth Standards talk page; if you disagree, please discuss it there. Súrendil (talk) 16:44, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Concept and creation really must come first, it's the only section with any real world context which is what the article should be about re: wp:fict. There is precedent in FA's on fictional subjects to put this type of content before describing the fiction. P.S. Very happy with the new low-res dwarves image from the movies. --Davémon (talk) 14:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyrighted images 

message: I have heard of a nation, or house of Dwarves called Dourhands. It says in the book there are only seven nations, all of which are mentioned. Is Dourhand another name for a dwarf house, like Durin's Folk/Longbeards?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.98.214 (talk) 20:59, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dourhands 

message: :Image:Gimli With Axe.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Gimli With Axe.jpg

message: has anyone a copy of the 'Rune to letter' translations of the runes pictured?
 it might be useful/interesting to some.
 i have a copy in a book, but no means to upload...
Ashspirit (talk) 21:10, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Runic Translation 

message: Under the section on Petty-dwarves, there is the following comment:
:The Sindar, not acquainted with Dwarves yet, saw the Petty-dwarves as little more than bothersome animals, calling them (Levain) Tad-dail 'two-legged (animals)', and hunted them for food and sport.
This is followed by a citation in Unfinished Tales. I guess this is in the section entitled "Of Mîm the Dwarf":
:No more than a shallow grot it [Bar-en-Nibin-noeg] looked, with a low broken arch; but further in it had been deepened and bored far under the hill by the slow hands of the Petty-dwarves, in the long years that they had dwelt there, untroubled by the Grey-elves of the woods. (p. 130, HarperCollins paperback edition, 1998)
which gives no indication that they were hunted by Elves at any point. The Silmarillion, on the other hand, does, but makes no reference to food or sport specifically:
:Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were, and hunted them, and slew them; but afterwards they let them alone, and they were called the Noegyth Nibin, the Petty-dwarves, in the Sindarin tongue. (p. 242, HarperCollins paperback edition, 1999)
I found these quotations using the indexes in these books, but I would be interested in a quotation (which would be from some unindexed page) showing specifically that they were hunted "for food and sport". Until then, I've changed the text and citation to fit the sources I've found. Hairy Dude (talk) 19:43, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Middle-earth specifically refers to the great continent lying east of Belegaer the western ocean upon which most of his tales and histories take place, as distinct from the Undying Lands in the West, and Numenor in between.Solicitr (talk) 21:35, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the first paragraph to Arda. Ncsr11 (talk) 14:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hunting of Petty-dwarves 

message: Is there any evidence whatever that "Middle-Earth" is in Tolkien restricted to a particular continent? Since the origin of the phrase is to refer to the entire Earth, the world among the 9 where Men dwell, I would be surprised. But I've turned out to be ignorant before, and I don't want to change an accurate reference merely because of ignorance! GeorgeTSLC (talk) 20:50, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Middle-earth specifically refers to the great continent lying east of Belegaer the western ocean upon which most of his tales and histories take place, as distinct from the Undying Lands in the West, and Numenor in between.Solicitr (talk) 21:35, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the first paragraph to Arda. Ncsr11 (talk) 14:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: "The continent Middle-Earth"

message: Dwarrows, dwerrows and dwerrow should redirect here. 64.229.100.61 (talk) 05:37, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dwarrow 

message: Do Middle-earth dwarves ever inhabit other than halls, and caves, or the underground? Perhaps dwarf houses in the mountains, with thatched roofs, timber and mortor, for instance? Alpine longhouses? They were miners and the Nordic people claim to see them in modern times. Perhaps they are "shadowy"? Ncsr11 (talk) 22:47, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  ...and many small dwellings in the Misty Mountains? 

message: The Book of Lost Tales was first published in 1983; The Hobbit was first published in 1937.  There is no possible way that the "representation of Dwarves as evil changed dramatically with The Hobbit," because the "representation" being referred to in that sentence would not exist until 46 years after The Hobbit was published.  I think more fanboys are spinning creative OR here. 12.233.146.130 (talk) 22:15, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The material in The Book of Lost Tales was written in 1920s, but not published till much later. Hope that clarifies things. --Davémon (talk) 12:41, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chronology error 

message: I was wondering if Talkien ever described the statue of his /or the nordic/ dwarfs. How high were they actually?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nix1129 (talk • contribs) 15:08, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The only direct statement that I'm aware of is in the Prologue to LOTR, where he says that hobbits are "smaller than Dwarves ... ranging between two and four feet of our measure."  Which would imply that dwarves were taller than about four feet, but how much taller is unclear. Mnudelman (talk) 15:08, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the high? 

message: De728631, I don't agree with your statement that "here's no evidence that Tolkien formed the two syllables of Sindarin "Mor-ia" after the hebrew template mount".
1. You do agree with the current analysis that compares the dwarves to the Jews? So do you really believe that the most spiritually and 'blood line' related place to both (Jews and dwarves) has the same name by chance?
2. The dwarves dispersed after losing Moria much like how the Jews dispersed after losing their Temple, located at Mount Moria (aka the Temple Mount)
3. Please refer to this book analysis agreeing that the dwarves Moria derives from the Jews Moria: http://contemporaryreligiousrationalism.blogspot.co.il/2013/01/non-fiction-tolkien-friend-of-jews.html  
--Bgme (talk) 17:14, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moria as a reference to the Temple Mount 

message: Within Arda, Dwarves are limited to the continent of Middle-earth (with the sole exception of Gimli). I propose to slightly rewrite the article to change Arda to Middle-earth; this would be more precise, and won't mislead those who imagine that the whole fictional universe is called Middle-earth. Cheers 111.220.227.146 (talk) 05:36, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, Middle-earth is the central continent, distinct from Valinor and Numenor and the Eastern continent.  In Tolkien it was never a word for the entire world. -- Elphion (talk) 06:56, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homeland of the Dwarves 

message: In my opinion, the article Fathers of the Dwarves is an unnecessary content fork of this page.  We can easily merge the relevant content from that page into the sections on this page about the history of the Dwarvish race. Hog Farm (talk) 15:57, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Propose merging [[Fathers of the Dwarves]] into [[Dwarf (Middle-earth)]]

message: Here is an article from the Times of Israel on the subject John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:36, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  dwaves as Jews 

message: An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Durin II. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  Hog Farm (talk) 00:41, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Durin II" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :Noegyth Nibin. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 10#Noegyth Nibin until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  Hog Farm  Talk 03:33, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Noegyth Nibin" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :Nibin-Noeg. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 10#Nibin-Noeg until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  Hog Farm  Talk 03:33, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Nibin-Noeg" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :Ibûn. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 10#Ibûn until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  Hog Farm  Talk 03:34, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Ibûn" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :Ibun. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 10#Ibun until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  Hog Farm  Talk 03:35, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Ibun" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :Nibin-Nogrim. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 10#Nibin-Nogrim until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  Hog Farm  Talk 03:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Nibin-Nogrim" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: The article says 
I don't believe this is correct, or at least is not expressed clearly. A dwarf had a secret "inner" name in Khuzdul, and a public "outer" name, in a "northern Mannish" form. The Norse names used in The Hobbit and LotR are feigned to be translations of the outer Mannish names, not of the Khuzdul names, which would not be used around or known by non-dwarves. The name "Gimli" for example, cannot be a representation of his Khuzdul name, since it used by Men, Elves and Hobbits. This is clear in LotR appendix F.I ("Gimli's own name, however, and the names of all his kin, are of Northern (Mannish) origin.") and in F.II ("The still more northernly language of Dale is in this book seen only in the names of the Dwarves that came from that region and so used the language of the Men there, taking their 'outer' names in that tongue.") The referenced essay "Of Dwarves and Men" in HOME XII, although not canonical in not being published by Tolkien himself, still agrees with this: "The case of the Dwarves of Moria was an example of adoption of names from Mannish languages of the North....", and even explicitly disclaims a connection between the inner and outer names: "Whether the adopted [outer] names that had meanings were selected because these meanings had some relation to their secret 'inner' names cannot be determined." (Actually I think this article should refer to the published LotR appendices rather the unpublished essay.)
The diagram "Linguistic Map of Middle-Earth.svg" in the article near this text seems to repeat this error. CodeTalker (talk) 20:25, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, feel free to change the ref to the appdx, and to tweak the diagram. I can do the latter when I'm back at my desk. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:13, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I have edited the section appropriately. For now I have commented out the linguistic map, both because I don't know exactly how to change it, and because I'm not sure it's actually useful. It seems more confusing than helpful, especially with the compass rose in it that seems to imply there is some geographical information being imparted which I don't really see. CodeTalker (talk) 18:16, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've tweaked it temporarily,  will tidy it up when I'm with a decent graphics editor. The compass just tells that Dale is off to the east, not a very contentious point really. Of course the map is also used elsewhere. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:38, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dwarf names