Talk:Keirsey Temperament Sorter

message: I think the correct name according to Keirsey is "Rational" and not "Rationalist."
--Estr4ng3d 03:15, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Extraterrestials? Earthlings? IMHO this should not be in the diagram. This might cause unwanted discussions and at least I am confused about it. So, if this is not really crucial important do it without this part. JKW 22:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good point.  I can do the same thing another way. Eincrat 23:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The thing about Martians and Earthlings - is this from "Please Understand Me"? It's not in "Please Understand Me II." I think it's outdated and should be removed. ThreeOfCups (talk) 03:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Since no one expressed a desire to keep these terms, I deleted them. ThreeOfCups (talk) 19:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup

message: Why is there so many edits to this section that don't go anywhere? Skinnyweed 19:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added articles for the missing role variants. They're sparse, but they're there. ThreeOfCups (talk) 19:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 16 Role Variants 

message: The links for the eight roles (Mentor, Advocate, etc.) don't go anywhere.  Should articles be created for these? Or is that overkill? They could be developed under the role variants (Mentor under Counselor and Teacher, for example). For now, I think I'll redirect the roles to the temperaments. ThreeOfCups (talk) 19:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Eight Roles 

message: If I remember correctly, Keirsey aligned the four "western" elements with the following qualities: blood/air, black bile/earth, yellow bile/fire, phlegm/water, and so on down the columns, to each of the other references. Now, I realize that Keirsey is professional psychologist, and he must have done at least a fair research to come up with such a timeline (and then publish them in a book under his name), but if he had done any research on the traditional western elements he would have realized how horribly misarranged they were in the catagories where he placed them.
In my own experience, I have taken a mundane look at the 12 (or 14) psychological archetypes in astrology throughout its recorded history, each of which (excluding the two "late-comers": Ophiuchus and Cetus) have corresponded to one of four elements. Now some science-minded individuals reading this may want to dismiss the historical relevance of these archetypal groupings simply because of their nebulous association with the 'arcane', but facts are facts and history is history. Whether there is anything to the archetypes, or whether they are another shot in the dark at pigeon-holing the human soul with hocus-pocus, the fact remains that their traditional connotations were misrepresented in Keirsey's book. That is why they have been corrected on the page. If anyone editing this page finds fault with that argument, feel free to respond on this board.
Nobody seems to have mentioned this...but, for example, shouldn't 'black bile'be above the 'melanchonic'temperament? 
Four Temperaments says 'Melancholic is the personality of an individual characterized by black bile'. Just my two cents. David88 16:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is on the Keirsey Temperament Sorter. The information above does not apply to the KTS, which takes a historical approach to the elements. Keirsey's point is that the concept of temperament is not new, and he's simply supplied a fresh, more empirical perspective. To my knowledge, the Keirsey folks aren't involved in the above-described research, and therefore it has no place in this article. I added links to some of the other temperament articles, including the Five Temperaments article, which addresses this theory. ThreeOfCups (talk) 15:55, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correction on the elements 

message: This article has things I haven't seen in Keirsey's writing. It really needs a major rewrite. Also, all the temperaments need articles. The Artisan one is pretty poor, and the rest don't even exist. When I have some time, I'll give it a try. In the mean time, I created userboxes for the four temperaments:
	
	
	
	
If you want to show one on your user page, just copy the code starting and ending with the double curly brackets. Nathanm mn 15:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keirsey Temperament Userboxes 

message: A lot of the information in the temperament table doesn't apply to the this article. I'm thinking of copying the table code into the article and simplifying the table overall. Does anyone object? Or would it be better to create a new template? ThreeOfCups (talk) 02:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the table, based on the information in Please Understand Me II by Keirsey and People Patterns by his colleague Stephen Montgomery. This isn't OR - Keirsey himself made these comparisons. ThreeOfCups (talk) 21:14, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

text: This suggestion has already been tried, and it didn't work out. The table in this article is specific to the Keirsey Temperament Sorter. The other table isn't similar enough to accurately capture Keirsey's theory. ThreeOfCups (talk) 00:37, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need separate tables for the Keirsey and Four Humours articles? 

message: A very similar table exists in Table of similar systems of comparison of temperaments
Unless I hear comment to the contrary, I would propose (a) merging this table's information into that external page and (b) changing reference on this page to that external page.
If people feel there's value retaining the subset of the information as a table on this page, however, I'm happy to do (a) but not (b).
Thoughts? Somersetlevels (talk) 08:21, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This suggestion has already been tried, and it didn't work out. The table in this article is specific to the Keirsey Temperament Sorter. The other table isn't similar enough to accurately capture Keirsey's theory. ThreeOfCups (talk) 00:37, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger

message: I'm not sure if I'm cooperative or pragmatic. What can help me? Twipley (talk) 21:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you know your type (role variant)? Rationals and Artisans are pragmatic; Idealists and Guardians are cooperative. If you want to discuss this further, you can post a message on my talk page. ThreeOfCups (talk) 05:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cooperation versus Pragmatism 

message: I couldn't find any reference to these interaction roles in Please Understand Me II, so I'm removing that as a reference. Perhaps it's in the orginal Please Understand Me. Page references would be helpful for verifiability. ThreeOfCups (talk) 17:17, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Four interaction roles

message: I would like to see a citation for the sentences in the "2 Understanding the sorter descriptions" section:
:"Carl Jung used the word sensing when describing concrete people... Carl Jung used the word intuition when describing abstract people."
In his book Psychological Types, Jung differentiates between "concrete sensation" and "abstract sensation".  Abstract sensation is attention to one specific aspect of sensory perceptions.  When describing a flower Jung says "abstract sensation immediately picks out the most salient sensuous attribute of the flower, its brilliant redness, for instance, and makes this the sole or at least the principal content of consciousness, entirely detached from all other admixtures" (Psychological Types, paragraph 794). 
  
So I doubt Jung used the word 'sensing' just for "concrete people" as is being claimed here! 
tom (talk) 08:27, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed "sensing" to "sensation," since that's what my translation of Psychological Types uses. Sensation refers to sensory perception, while intuition refers to unconscious perception. ThreeOfCups (talk) 05:57, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't you mean subconscious perception?Edifyingdiscourse (talk) 03:24, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  quote from Carl Jung about abstract / concrete 

message: See Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, it looks like a better, well-developed article. In my cursory research, I've come to the assumption that Keirsey effectively replaces Myers-Briggs. But in the MBTI article, there is a good description of how the National Academy of Sciences reviewed the MBTI test. I'd like to know what they thought of Keirsey's test. Xaxafrad (talk) 03:16, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  article needs a criticism section 

message: Currently, the totem spirits correlate to the other temperaments like so:
* Sanguine Salamanders
* Melancholic Gnomes
* Choleric Nymphs
* Phlegmatic Sylphs
But the Gnomes seem to be the only ones in the right place when the elements the temperaments and spirits represent are taken into account:
* Air is Sanguine, but Salamanders are fire elementals
* Fire is Choleric, but Nymphs are water elementals
* Water is Phlegmatic, but Sylphs are air elementals
Is this just a weird inconsistency due to the multitude of people's ideas this chart puts together, or should Sylphs be Sanguine, Salamanders by Choleric, and Nymphs be Phlegmatic?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.237.119.62 (talk) 01:10, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Kant's and Eysenck's temperaments also seem misaligned. They're identical to the classical four humors but are not in the same order.--2.204.226.11 (talk) 00:33, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Four Totem Spirits in Incorrect Spots According to Elements? 

message: hmmm - according to the NACTA Journal there's also the "Strengths-Quest," "True Colors," and "iPersonic." (i'll attempt to find links to their webpages.. brb! )--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 01:11, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strengths-Quest? True Colors? iPersonic? (etc....)

message: The redirect Mastermind (role variant has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached.  Utopes (talk / cont) 04:17, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "[[:Mastermind (role variant]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]