Talk:Mid-Atlantic accent

message: Grace Kelly? PurpleChez (talk) 18:43, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grace Kelly? 

message: So they can either experience it or try to pick it up for themselves 
http://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/243064/     An airplane tour of San Francisco 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6ZUneyU7Vo     President McKinley
Timothy Perseus Wordsworthe (talk) 18:39, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Let's provide readers with audio examples of the accent

message: This article cannot make up its mind whether Mid-Atlantic English is an accent or a dialect, two very different things - it seems to think it is both sometimes - and is woolly about whether it is alive or dead.  I am not qualified to do it, but someone needs to rewrite this article, clarifying these points.  I have rewritten clumsy passages here and there to make them read better, but have limited my edits to that. --P123cat1 (talk) 13:55, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a cultivated accent: a particular learned "sound system." The word dialect implies not just sound, but other differentiating language features like grammatical structure, vocabulary, etc. I've moved the article to reflect this in its name. Wolfdog (talk) 15:13, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: By “cultivated” do you mean in the socially refined/ upper-crust sense, or that it is an accent cultivated by the speaker, e.g. through elocution? In any case, the description might apply to American speakers, but not the other way; as mentioned before, British pop/ rock stars often speak/ sing in an affected “Americanized” accent, described as “mid-Atlantic”,but it has no sense of heightened status or upper class attached to it by British listeners, and may actually be seen as striking against status - Mick Jagger was brought up to speak with an RP accent (there is footage of him on TV as a teenager with his father, and h used it in later debates on music and morality, etc.), but first adopted a “Cockney”-tinged accent to appear more working class, to which was added American cadences, in emulation of the U.S. artists and music he admired. In an interesting twist, it is perfectly exemplified by the characters of the band in “Spinal Tap”, who have uncannily synthesized the “Cockney”/ “American” idiom of so many British performers over the years. Jock123 (talk) 17:15, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accent or Dialect? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: At (admittedly) quick glance, this page can easily merge with a few other articles that all appear to discuss cultivated (i.e. artificial or learned) accents of American English associated generally with theatre, wealth, and/or higher education in the early 1900s (all now moribund), and all involving a quite similar pronunciation system that blends perceived American and British speech features. I'd like to go through these various pages' references in the next few days and determine whether the sources in fact show any real connections. I'm wondering whether these relatively small (and not super citation-laden) articles could simply be combined, each having sections on a single page. As these articles currently stand, their similarities seem stronger than than their distinctions. Do others share my sentiments? Wolfdog (talk) 02:24, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger thoughts regarding Locust Valley lockjaw, Boston Brahmin accent, and American Theater Standard 

message: I hate to slap an 'internationalise' tag on this, but the term, mid or trans Atlantic was just as much used in UK as in the US. The term in the UK, especially of people in broadcasting or entertainment, was used to describe a sometimes seemingly conscious adoption of US sounds, intonation etc., though people with 'a foot in each camp', appeared to come by it more naturally. Just as mid-Atl might have sounded 'classier' to US listeners, the UK form sounded livelier to UK ears than RP.
The article at the moment seems pretty cruel to US users, while I am sure this accent is unlike any US regional accent (and of course unlike any British one), was it not the accent of a conscious social elite, probably absorbed in nursery, private school and club. It is still the case today in the UK that the aristocacry, inc some royals, speak in an accent of their own making, which wouldn't get them a job reading the weather. Just out of interest would Jackie Kennedy have been considered as being a mid-Atl speaker? Pincrete (talk) 20:13, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: , only source is my own memory! I think the term, and accent is less common now in UK. In the early days of TV into late '60s, popular programmes were often hosted by mid-Atlanticers, some natural, some conscious. Her Majesty certainly isn't mid-Atlantic, the only reason I think I mentioned 'nobility', is that ruling elites sometimes develop their own distinctive speech, in the UK this is a sort of 'swallowed' not very clear English all of their own, (think Charles rather than Liz!). Jackie Kennedy may have been the US-equiv, a style of speech that conveys class origins, rather than regional origins. Pincrete (talk) 18:12, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Internationalise? 

message: The article as written seems to be mixing some concepts, or at least not clarifying them. There is an implication that if an American speaks with a non-rhotic accent, then it is a Mid-Atlantic accent. This is, of course, wholly false. Many of the regional accents that developed across the eastern seaboard and nearly the entire south (east of Texas) during the later 19th century were non-rhotic. And despite the regression over the course of the 20th century to rhotic accents, non-rhotic accents persist in many areas, particularly the Northeastern seaboard. But all of these are distinct from the artificially developed Mid-Atlantic accent (though one could argue this artificial accent probably influenced some of the native accents to a degree).
- MC  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.34.43 (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the differentiation may not be clear enough. This might simply be a matter of better wording. I will try to make some adjustments. Wolfdog (talk) 17:22, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

text: I took the liberty of correcting "non-rhotic accept" to "non-rhotic accent" when I couldn't find any linguistic "accepts!" Also, (so I might net some karma from taking time to look it up) one has a rhotic accent if they pronounce the /r/ in butter and hard, and non-rhotic if they don't (with some exceptions).  See Rhoticity in English for more info. Peacedance (talk) 21:52, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mixing concepts 

message: *A classic Mid-Atlantic accent in film was the "lockjaw" speech pattern affected by Joanna Barnes in her portrayal of anti-Semitic, pretentious, spoiled rich socialite, Gloria Upson in the 1958 film, Auntie Mame. Barnes' entertaining parody earned her a Golden Globe nomination for "New Star of the Year." As a stockbroker's daughter born and raised in a Boston socialite family, as well as educated at Milton Academy and then a Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Smith College. Barnes was naturally familiar with the accent which she assumed for many of her film and television roles.
*One of the classic Mid-Atlantic accents on television was the "lockjaw" speech pattern affected by Jim Backus in his portrayal of millionaire Thurston Howell III on the situation comedy Gilligan's Island.
*In 1983's film, Trading Places, Dan Aykroyd's character Louis Winthorpe III affected a Mid-Atlantic accent as he said of Eddie Murphy's Billy Ray Valentine, "He was wearing my Harvard tie--can you believe it? My Harvard Tie! Like, oh sure, HE went to Harvard!"
*David Tench (played by Drew Forsythe), who was a fictional animated Australian TV host from David Tench Tonight, often used a transatlantic accent. Although, most of the time, he had a cultivated Australian accent which vacillated into the transatlantic accent.
*Harry Shearer's vocal portrayal of Mr. Burns, Kelsey Grammer's vocal portrayal of Sideshow Bob, and Dan Castellaneta's vocal portrayal of Sideshow Mel in The Simpsons.
*Jon Lovitz spoke in a highly theatrical Mid-Atlantic accent for his character Master Thespian on Saturday Night Live.
*Tabitha St. Germain uses a Mid-Atlantic accent for the voice of Rarity in My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic.
*For her role as Amelia Earhart, Amy Adams spoke with a Mid-Atlantic accent in Night at the Museum 2 (2009), probably to give the character a confident air but would otherwise seem an odd choice for a portrayal of the famous flier who was a "midwesterner" - born (and spent her first twelve years) in Aitchison, Kansas, next five years in Des Moines, Iowa, and high school in Chicago, Illinois. Film clips of the real "tomboy" Earhart reveal a midwestern accent.
*Dodo Bellacourt in the series Another Period speaks with an exaggerated Mid-Atlantic accent.
*Asian films dubbed into English in Hong Kong often use Mid-Atlantic accents, most notably the English-dubbed versions of many entries of the Godzilla series, numerous films produced by Shaw Brothers and most of Bruce Lee's filmography. The accent was used in a somewhat utilitarian fashion as the dubbing casts featured English-speaking ex-pats living in Hong Kong from many different countries including Britain, the U.S. and Australia, and the dubs themselves were meant for all English-speaking territories so a neutral accent was preferred.
*Evan Peters employs a Mid-Atlantic accent on American Horror Story: Hotel (as James Patrick March, a ghostly serial killer from the 1920s), as does Mare Winningham (as March's accomplice, Miss Evers).
*In the 2015 film The Man From U.N.C.L.E., Henry Cavill speaks with a Mid-Atlantic accent for his character Napoleon Solo.
*In the 1994 Coen Brothers comedy, The Hudsucker Proxy, Amy Archer, played by Jennifer Jason Leigh, is a brassy Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter for the Manhattan Argus who employs (to comedic effect) a Mid-Atlantic accent."
Some of that isn't sourced. Should it stay on the page? Themoonx (talk) 10:09, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  sources for some parts of the article: 

message: The sound files used for the "Pronuncation of T" section is not mid-Atlantic. That's just a standard US accent. Why is it being used for that section? Zekkertx (talk) 13:04, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation of T 

message: Where should information about the "Classical American accent" (Fletcher) or "Western Standard" (Skinner) be put?  Lots of the examples of a "Mid-Atlantic" accent are actually the Classical American accent, such as Fraiser or "The Guiding Light".  The "Classical American accent" is a rhotic or partially rhotic variety and sounds more American than the Mid-Atlantic/Eastern standard accent.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by XSAMPA (talk • contribs) 23:17, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think either term should be used.  It only complicates the article for laymen.  It would be easier to identify them as different varieties of the same accent.LakeKayak (talk) 17:29, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Classical American accent/Western Standard 

message: Why does this page, but virtually no other dialect page, have section after section of phonological explanation? Why does every split or merger merit its own section? Can't this all be compiled neatly under a single "Phonology" section? I'm also wondering why so much careful attention has been given to phonology (which is great, of course), and yet still no one can add a single citation here that shows the British perspective on the term "Mid-Atlantic accent", though Britons ensure me that the phrase is used in their own country to mean a British accent with American features. Wolfdog (talk) 12:56, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I have replaced some of the sections with bullet points.  Unfortunately, I was only able to do the vowel changes before r.  It will take some time for the other sections to be replaced.LakeKayak (talk) 14:15, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think the issue may be resolved now, but I need a second opinion.LakeKayak (talk) 22:30, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, it looks much better now. Thanks! Wolfdog (talk) 00:40, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

text: You're welcome.— Preceding unsigned comment added by LakeKayak (talk • contribs) 01:17, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why are there all these sections? 

message: Is there a reason the "look" section instated?  I am left confused, not seeing the need for the section.LakeKayak (talk) 21:13, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I made one mistake.  There is a foot-goose merger.  However, it's found primarily in Scottish English.  Neither American nor British English has this merger.LakeKayak (talk) 22:45, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Look vowel 

message: I feel that this page seems to be too much of a guide on how to speak the Transatlantic accent, and that therefore the page may be losing its neutral point of view.  In order to mimic the structure used on the other dialect pages, in essence, I am going have to redo the entire "Phonology section".LakeKayak (talk) 01:27, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with page 

message: Just so that we're on the same page, it seems that  is not recognized on the RP page (or any other dialect) as a separate phoneme.  As RP, in particular, has a strong resistant to yod-dropping, if  were to be recognized as a separate phoneme on any dialect page, it would be RP.  Therefore, it seems that the sound is realized as  followed by .  With this in mind, I don't think that  should be instated as a diphthong of the Transatlantic accent.LakeKayak (talk) 02:07, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  RE: [juː] isn't exactly a diphthong. 

message: I only used the word "phoneme" because the word "phoneme" was used on other dialect pages like New York English and General American.  I only request for consistency from page to page.  If the word in "phoneme" should not be used here, then we probably should change the word "phoneme" on the other pages.  Either way, it's your call.LakeKayak (talk) 20:59, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. Mr KEBAB (talk) 21:06, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  RE: phonemes are not enclosed in brackets 

message: Does anyone know, beyond original research, the reason for the decline of the Mid-Atlantic accent? Scholars seem to agree that it declined sharply after WWII, but do they also have any strong theories about why? I can think of many sensible theories off the top of my head for this postwar change (aversion to British sounds, embracing of more "middle-America" patriotism, resistance to upper-class norms, etc.), but does anyone know what the scholarly research actually has to say? Wolfdog (talk) 13:36, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Just my opinion but I rather doubt you will find a scholarly investigation of the decline as the reasons seem fairly obvious and it was really just an isolated fad. You can view its dying out as part of the larger trend that caused non-rhotic speech to mostly die out in America. --MC 141.131.2.3 (talk) 16:47, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the evidence that it was "just a fad"? Are you sure the mid-Atlantic accent wasn't in use for some decades of the 1800s? And what exactly is the source of "the larger trend that caused non-rhotic speech to die out in America"? I'd still like to know why this seemed to occur so abruptly right around the end of WWII. Wolfdog (talk) 22:35, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reason for its decline 

message: I recently made a couple of edits which Wolfdog asked to be discussed. The first was removing some plagiarism, changing
:... but an affected set of speech patterns whose "chief quality was that no Americans actually spoke it unless educated to do so".
to
:... but rather an affected set of speech patterns that are learned in order to appear cultured.
Obviously the quote cannot be included without explicit attribution. In this case I see no reason to include a quote at all, hence my edit. Wolfdog did not explain a reason for re-introducing the plagiarism (so I have removed that part again since it is a serious violation).
The other edit was changing the lead sentence from
:The Mid-Atlantic accent, or Transatlantic accent, is a consciously acquired accent of English, intended to blend together the "standard" speech of both American English and British Received Pronunciation.
to
:The Mid-Atlantic accent, or Transatlantic accent, is a style of speech, once popular among educated classes in parts of the United States, that is intended to blend together the standard speech of both American English and British Received Pronunciation.
The original version using a phrase like "consciously acquired" seems a tad confusing for a lead sentence. This phrasing is fine for later in the article but for somebody unfamiliar with the topic reading the article for the first time one would probably have to read that a few times to understand what was meant. Additionally, the lead did not provide any insight as to who used this accent which made it a somewhat incomplete lead sentence. Wolfdog seems to dislike my choice of the word style. I am OK with choosing another word but I am unclear as to why that required reverting the whole thing.
-- MC 141.131.2.3 (talk) 16:41, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverts 

message: The article hints at but does not clearly expound the difference between these patterns of speech as affected and as natural.  Is there any chance that perhaps we could have a special section about its conscious acquisition, and then one about its natural occurrence?  Many thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iohannes Grammaticus (talk • contribs) 10:20, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Affectation 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This note has to do with two aspects of the claim that Grover Cleveland is from Central New York.  
First, Grover Cleveland moved to Central New York at about 13 years of age.  He was born in Caldwell, New Jersey (about 15 miles due west of Manhattan).  The age is significant because accents are often set by the age of 13.  They can and do change but typically not.  Therefore, unless the editor had something in mind wrt talking about Central NY, it would probably make sense to say that he was from Caldwell, New Jersey. 
Second, Caldwell, New Jersey may have played a significant role with his accent.  I don't know of historical data but during the 20th century residents of New Jersey's Ramapo Ridge (which includes Caldwell) had an accent that could read as mid-Atlantic.  For example, this region pronounces words like Florida with an "ah" sound before the "r" (flahridda).  In addition, this region pronounces words like cot and caught differently.  Mary, merry, and marry are also distinct.  Many US speakers of English collapse the pronunciation of these sets of words and others like them.  I would imagine that Grover Cleveland could easily have spoken with a similar accent.  
It may be worth pointing out that some recent work (Coye's Dialect Boundaries in New Jersey, American Speech, 2009) suggests that younger people in this region may be collapsing pronunciation like the rest of the country.  However, the sample size was small and arranged by county boundaries rather than established dialect boundaries.  This same article does cover some of the dialect variants in pronunciation.  
I'll add one more thing.  There are at least two meanings for "Mid-Atlantic accent".  There is that notion of an accent somewhere between the received pronunciations in the US and the UK but there is also the notion of a set of accents found in the mid-Atlantic region of the US.  
Richard Beckwith
RichardBeckwith (talk) 15:55, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi. I think all your comments are already duly noted except the Caldwell, New Jersey comment; you're right that that should be changed assuming you're correct. But actually the WP article on Cleveland contradicts this: "In 1841, the Cleveland family moved to Fayetteville, New York, where Grover spent much of his childhood." This article is specifically about the Transatlantic accent, not the Mid-Atlantic States regional accent. A quick listen to Cleveland's voice to me reveals happY-laxing, flapped R, and a curl-coil distinction. Yet I would expect a true Caldwell speaker from this era not to have these features, which are instead more in line with the affected Transatlantic accent. So we're dealing here with the affected accent, not the regional accent. Wolfdog (talk) 16:27, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grover Cleveland's accent 

message: What about persons who grew up hearing this accent because their parents or grandparents consciously "acquired" it generations back? If this is what one hears spoken in one's childhood home, then there's nothing "consciously acquired" about it. The article seems to assume that every family's linguistic memory was wiped with each new generation and that the Mid-Atlantic accent had to be relearnt from the ground up. It would have us believe that, for some arbitrary reason, the Mid-Atlantic accent absolutely cannot be passed from one generation to the next, even if every member of the family spoke in this manner. The fact that the Mid-Atlantic accent has artificial and affected origins need not mean that everyone using it is necessarily affecting it.  2606:A000:8948:A100:8DB7:F8B6:2A4B:4A2 (talk) 05:08, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Consciously Acquired Accent" 

message: Ironically, it seems as though one of the editors that voted "oppose" in the above page move proposal actually thought that this was an article about the Mid-Atlantic American dialect, noting that he "once heard this accent referred to as the Delawarean Accent". This is clearly a reference to the Mid-Atlantic American accent, and this editor's understandable confusion only further demonstrates the need to re-titled this page by moving it from the unnecessarily confusing "Mid-Atlantic accent" to the more commonly sourced "Transatlantic accent." It is laughably ludicrous that a page move proposed in part to avoid confusion over a similarly named dialect was thwarted because editors voting "oppose" are themselves confused and believe this article is referring to Mid-Atlantic American English. You see what I mean, right? Ultimately, however, the proposal was also based on the sources, the majority of which refer to the "Transatlantic accent." Madreterra (talk) 19:01, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Re: Move to Transatlantic accent

message: I have skimmed through the article and it seems to be comprehensively written. It could use a  map showing where the Midatlandic dialectbis spoken. Spannerjam (talk) 11:20, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  The article could use map and perhaps some other ornamentation 

message: The whole article seems to lionize the unsubstantiated thesis by Dudley Knight (who was a vocal coach and NOT a linguist) as the voice of God without any critical assessment. Are we to believe that William Tilly traveled back in time to the 1830's-40's to teach presidents Cleveland and McKinley his Mid-Atlantic speech?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.158.24.144 (talk) 19:02, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Please provide better sources. I've been seeking them for ages. Wolfdog (talk) 01:43, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lack of neutrality 

message: According to the article, this accent is a mixture of both American and British characteristics. However, almost all the features listed in the Phonology section are featues from RP. Where are the American characteristics? It feels like the article is written from the American perspective and focused on features that are not American. I'd like to read more about the American characteristics.  Betty (talk) 00:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  American characteristics 

message: Hello everyone,
I was wondering if anyone could provide any vowel diagrams for the Mid-Atlantic diphthongs please ? I couldn't find any.
Thanks :) YanisBourgeois (talk) 23:44, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I created the diagrams for the Mid-Atlantic vowels as pronounced by Franklin D. Roosevelt, but his version of it was somewhat different from the theoretical version of the accent, does someone have the acoustic data of a perfect Mid-Atlantic speaker ? YanisBourgeois (talk) 11:55, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diagrams ? 

message: In Good American Speech by M. P. McLean, is described as low front unrouded [a] with a certain degree of variation as far as the length is concerned : "Its length varies but it's usually about half long, perhaps because it's usually followed by of voiced consonnant. It is rarely, if ever, fuuly long." It's also asserted that it can take the PALM value : Every sound that contains the sound a may be pronounced with the vowel ɑ(ː) as well"  YanisBourgeois (talk) 11:53, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  BATH vowel according to McLean 

message: Reiterated from my edit summaries in opposition to your recent reverts: You're including a term, "Classical American," that is otherwise defined nowhere else in the text. I don't see the good of this. What does the term mean exactly and why do you feel it should be included? Wolfdog (talk) 01:17, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It reprents a form of compromise between General American and Mid-Atlantic English, the latter often judged too British (which nearly an objective truth). The reason why I decided to include it is because it completes a continuum that goes from General Amercian to RP and helps understanding it more solely. YanisBourgeois (talk) 15:16, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's best to ignore a term that will only add further confusion and only comes from a single source. Furthermore, the only difference between Classical American (or "Classial" as it currently reads) and Mid-Atlantic is length distinctions. Clearly, we're getting into the weeds of phonetics on a chart that is focused on phonemics. Wolfdog (talk) 17:56, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Go ahead then I won't add it back YanisBourgeois (talk) 11:08, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

text: I agree that some speakers might use the tense THOUGHT vowel for words like CLOTH but it's only a result of mistake or personal liberty on the part of the speakers. So as interesting as it is to mention this variability, a tense open-mid variant for CLOTH shouldn't be included in the Mid-Atlantic Accent. Including a variant into a type of speech because of it's initially "inappropriate" use, only makes sense for a natural accent that, supposedly, evolves over time and along with demographic changes, not for one that was consciously constructed and has been volontarily learnt. YanisBourgeois (talk) 15:30, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Plus if I include the tense CLOTH variant in the chart, I would have to include the tense LOT variant [ɑː] and the raised pre-nasal TRAP and BATH variants as well. This chart being meant to be extremely synoptic I only mentionned variants that were consensually accepted by both Skinner and McLean, i.e. TRAP [æ], BATH [a], PALM [ɑː], LOT-CLOTH [ɒ] and THOUGHT [ɔː]. That's the reason why I didn't add the variants other than [a] mentionned by McLean in the BATH set. YanisBourgeois (talk) 15:41, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: If we're going to include information in a chart that openly contradicts the prose, we need the actual labels "Skinner and McLean" in the chart then. Or, we could follow my suggestion (still my preference), which is to revert back to the chart matching the prose. Wolfdog (talk) 17:56, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Classical American 

message: The entry on the Canadian counterpart of Mid-Atlantic English, namely , describes it as a sociolect. So, my question is, can Mid-Atlantic English also be described as such? If it is (the use of it by the entertainment industry potentially makes this questionable), I'd like to add a wlink to 'sociolect' in the lede of this article.
Thoughts? Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 22:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sociolect?