Talk:Europe/Archive 2

message: I'm assuming someone has edited the regions list as some countries now don't match their colour on the map. Grunners 19:24, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Regions Map

message: Where are the borders of Northern Europe? I have noted that the name is often followed by the word biggest, largest or greatest; "The largest record store in Northern Europe". Does this include anything else than the Nordic countries? Is northern Germany included?
:It usually means the parts of Europe where Germanic languages are spoken, or the countries that have no coast on the Mediterranean. Contrast with Southern Europe, which is where Romance languages or Greek are spoken, or that butt up against the Mediterranean.
:Problem cases are France (usually considered to be straddling the divide), and much of Eastern Europe. The term is fairly vague. --PaulDrye
I am not to sure about the English use, but German "Nordeuropa" usually only means the Nordic Countries, possibly + Baltic. Jakob Stevo 21:13, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition of "Northern Europe"

message: Taken from the article
Often other borders of Europe are drawn, based on political, economical, cultural or practical considerations. This has led to there being several different "Europes" that are not always identical in size, including or excluding countries dependent on the definition of "Europe" used. 
The idea of a European "Continent" is not universally held. Many non-European geographical texts refer to a Eurasian Continent, or a European "Sub-continent", due to the fact that "Europe" is not surrounded by sea and is much more of a cultural area than geographically definable area. In the past concepts such as "Christendom" were deemed more important. 
Increasingly, the word "Europe" is primarily being used as a synonym for the members of the European Union (EU). Fifteen European states are currently members of the EU, with 10 more due to join by mid-2004, a few more negotiating for membership and several more expected to commence negotiations at some stage in the future. Almost all European states are members of the Council of Europe; the sole exceptions are Belarus and the Vatican City.
I dont think this passage is correct myself. Actually Europe's physical borders are clearly defined and end at the Ural mountains in Russia, where the European tectonic plate meets the Asian one.
Also the map does not show the full extent of Europe's boundaries and is not therefore not correct. Europe actually includes roughly 1\3 of Russia, which is not shown on the map on this article. G-Man 18:37, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that both the geographic and other boundaries are worth a mention in the article. It does seem odd to prefer some of the latter on the /map/... --Shallot 21:15, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: What is the European tectonic plate? As far as I can tell from Wikipedia and elsewhere, Europe and Asia are both part of the Eurasian plate, and the Ural mountains were caused by an ancient collision between long-since altered structures. Jxg 17:23, 2004 May 21 (UTC)
The fact remains that the current map does not show the whole of Europe, a better map of Europe is here  G-Man 22:15, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: Agree, but also there Svalbard is missing... --Jakro64 14:09, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

text: Actually this is old stuff. The map that was commented about in April was different, smaller in scope, from the present one. It was :Image:Europe-large.png. --Joy [shallot] 15:04, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Extent/Map

message: Surely it is not correct to say that the Dark Ages extended up until the Renaissance.  The Dark Ages started in the 5th century CE and ended about the time of Charlemagne, around 800 CE.  The Renaissance did not start until the 14th century.   In between was the "Middle Ages", a well understood period of feudal states which were not "dark" and which included the cathedral-building period and the Crusades.
: According to my history books, the whole period between 476 and 1492 is referred to as the Middle Ages, and the Dark Ages are mentioned as a more subjective name for earlier periods of the Middle Ages. I guess it depends on the historian's views. --Shallot 17:29, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The Middle Ages, the Dark Ages and Medieval times

message: Cyprus is located south of Turkey and west of Syria, and therefore not in Europe. If it were, then all of Turkey would be considered in Europe. Cyprus is already mentioned as a member of the European Union. Pædia | talk 17:14, 2004 May 4 (UTC)
: We allow some variation in the descriptions and in the maps based on criteria that aren't geographic. To completely omit Cyprus would be pointless. --Shallot 17:22, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The geographical definition can't be the ultimate one, because this is a general encyclopedia entry on Europe, not one that describes only its geography. (Besides, that definition is also a matter of agreement among scholars, not obvious physical geography.) The same way we shouldn't cater to people who would blithely kick out e.g. Kazakhstan because only a small part of it is in Europe, we shouldn't kick out Cyprus because it's beyond the strict geographical boundary. --Shallot 18:50, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

text: Possibly, but it's still not a list of European countries but of all countries in the world. The page on the CIA World Factbook is the one that should include the link to the Factbook front page, and it does that already IIRC. --Shallot 18:50, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

text: I added a new table in section "Independent states". I hope the notes attached therein to the nations should satisfy the NPOV.  There's a new section in this talk page, "new table added to "independent states"" below, where I suggest we consolidate discussion on this issue. Teemu Leisti 22:59, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cyprus is in CoE and EU not Europe 

message: :: I think the NPOV comes up here: since there's apparently different opinions, Wikipedia should reflect all in a neutral way. To me, mentioning all nations that are by some regarded as European are mentioned; those that are not always included are annotated, footnoted or whatever to mark that their inclusion is debatable. Jeronimo
:::NPOV may also demand that we keep to the only definition of Europe that is at least reasonably clear, the geographical one, which is also the most neutral one, since it doesn't necessarily involve those troublesome human creatures and their  differing ideas ;) I'm concerned about the definition here; we give it at the top of the page and then violate it in the prominent list. On what ground is Armenia European, but not the whole of Russia, Turkey or even Israel? See also the maps that are now added that don't have the Transcaucasus in Europe, but do include it in Asia. I'll move the Transcaucasus to a separate note after some time, while awaiting any further comments. -Scipius
:: No, NPOV says all "sides of the story" should be told in a neutral way. BTW, another encyclopedia I checked mentions that the Caucasian states are included "by convention", mentioning the Caucasus range as the southern border, also "by convention". Jeronimo
:::Including the Transcaucasus in the main list is not neutral IMO, but rather acknowledging a certain view. The issue here is which definition to use and taking the core geographic definition of Europe and adhering strictly to it in terms of classifying nations can serve as a base to explain all the other definitions of Europe. What would you do about the as yet non-existent list of Asian countries? Would you include or exclude the Transcaucasus there? Can a whole country belong to two continents at the same time? -Scipius
:: Acknowledging different points of view is neutrality.  Stating amongst whom such opinions are popular is, too. Pretending such views don't exist or can somehow be disregarded is very much POV.  Both geographical and political definitions must be included.  It is a common tactic to pick a perspective of something that is in of itself neutral, but happens to be in accord with what one would have people believe (e.g. the Mercator projection).  NPOV requires us to strive to avoid such bias. Mr. Jones 14:09, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, the geographic one outlined in the article is pretty well established AFAIK. Iceland used to have a note saying it didn't belong to any continent (it's right on the mid-Atlantic ridge and though I've never heard of tectonic plates being used in continental definitions, it's debatable), but since we need to classify it somewhere it clearly belongs to Europe. Greenland is North American by most accounts. And not all of France is in Europe ;) -Scipius
That may well be true, but the views on the political boundaries should also be discussed.  The discussion has a limit to it because a) There is a finite number of countries and b) there are countries we can with certainty say are not part of Europe (America, India and China, for instance).  The border cases (no pun intended) can be marked as such, and their alternative affiliations listed.  I may do this one day, but it'd be months before I got round to it.  Mr. Jones 14:18, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

text: I added a new table in section "Independent states". I hope the notes attached to the nations should satisfy the NPOV.  There's a new section in this talk page, "new table added to "independent states"" below, where I suggest we consolidate discussion on this issue. Teemu Leisti 22:59, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: You miss the irony in your argument as to why Israel's Eurovision participation doesn't denote an association with Europe. The European Broadcasting Union? It's still a bizarre quirk and an association with Europe. Zoney 18:33, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  An issue of NPOV 

message: [The Alphabets of Europe] defines Europe thus:
:The Alphabets of Europe uses the following geographical and geophysical definition of Europe:
::“Europe” extends from the Arctic and Atlantic (including Iceland and the Faroe Islands) southeastwards to the Mediterranean (including Malta and Cyprus), with its eastern and southern borders being the Ural Mountains, the Ural River, the Caspian Sea, and Anatolia, inclusive of Transcaucasia.
:This report also includes languages found in the following areas:
::Anatolian Turkey, Greenland
:Information concerning the administrative units covered by this geographical definition can be found [here]. It is important to note that this is a geolinguistic survey. It is not a political survey. The area defined here may be seen on page xiv, “Geographical Comparisons”, in The Times Atlas of the World: comprehensive edition, 1990 ().
:The following list enumerates the administrative units corresponding to the geographical definition of Europe in clause 1.1. This list was valid at the time of its compilation (1995-03-01). Spelling of entity names follows that given in ISO 3166-3.
:The following countries and self-governing dependencies: Albania, Andorra, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan (including the autonomous republic of Naxçivan), Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia and Hercegovina, Bulgaria, the Channel Islands, Croatia, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, the Faroe Islands, Finland (including Åland), France, Georgia (including the autonomous republics of Abkhazia and Ajaria and the Autonomous Region of South Ossetia), Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, the Isle of Man, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Malta, Moldova, Monaco, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, San Marino, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey (excluding Anatolia), Ukraine, the United Kingdom, the Vatican City, Yugoslavia (Crna Gora, Srbija, Kosovo-Metohija, and Vojvodina).
:The following Republics in the Russian Federation: Adygea, Baškortostan, Čečenija, Čuvašija, Dagestan, Ingušetija, Kabardino-Balkarija, Kalmykija, Karačaj-Čerkesija, Karelija, Komi, Mari-El, [Mordvinija,] Severnaja Osetija, Tatarstan, Udmurtija.
:The following oblasts in the Russian Federation: Arkhangelˊsk (including the Nenets Autonomous Okrug), Astrahanˊ, Belgorod, Brjansk, Ivanovo, Jaroslavlˊ, Kaliningrad, Kaluga, Kirov, Kostroma, Kursk, Leningrad, Lipetsk, Moskva, Murmansk, Nižnij Novgorod, Novgorod, Orël, Orenburg, Penza, Permˊ (including the Komi-Permjak Autonomous Okrug), Pskov, Rostov, Ryazanˊ, Samara, Saratov, Smolensk, Tambov, Tula, Tverˊ, Ulˊjanovsk, Vladimir, Volgograd, Vologda, Voronež.
:The following krais in the Russian Federation: Krasnodar, Stavropolˊ. Evertype 19:05, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)
::This is very interesting. However it is not strictly geographical (ie. Russia). Still very interesting though. --Cantus 19:52, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: What I mean is that some regions will overlap with the geographical border. --Cantus 21:04, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  A geographical definition of Europe 

message: The article in its current state seems rather nagging to me. I would really like to see the repetitive remarks on alternative definitions be centralized and just mentioned at one place.
--Ruhrjung 20:13, 2004 Sep 29 (UTC)
:Relegating an alternative definition to a different section would be POV. --Cantus 20:41, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)
: Both of you, please tell me what you think of my last edit. I don't think there's a POV problem with distinguishing between the definite borders (e.g. Atlantic and Mediterranean) and the not-quite-certain ones. Aris Katsaris 21:27, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  "(or the [[Emba River]] in other definitions)" 

message: The notion that Europe is not truly a continent rests on a somewhat silly semantic dispute.  Let's put it this way: the word 'continent' is defined by its examples.  If, according to a definition of 'continent', Europe is not a continent, then that definition simply doesn't capture the ordinary use of the term. --LMS
:To my knowledge, other non-european cultures do not consider Europe to be a continent. For example, the Russian language article on Europe calls it part of Eurasia. We should have interlanguage consistancy on Wikipedia. Seabhcán 14:47, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Whether Europe is really a continent