Talk:Catharism/Archive 1

message: There should be no problem in the merging of the two articles. But i do differ with JHK on the point that the word "albigensians" is purely geographical. True it is geographical insofar as it refers to the town of Albi, but it also refers to the crusade by the same name. Let not Pope Innocent's Magum Opus go completely unacknowledged.arunvenkat
Cathars are albigensians.  Albigensians is a geographical name.   Unless anyone objects, I'll combine both under Cathars, and fix links to Albigensians = Cathars.  I'll leave this up for a day or so befor changing.JHK
So, what's the deal with the merge?  They definitely need to be merged! Coontie 04:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

message: I realize that the bulk of the article comes from the 1911 Britannica, which I wouldn't expect to be neutral on the subject of Christian heresies.  But it's 2004 now, and the continual reference to "heresy", "heretics", and so on in the text grates on me.  Is it worthwhile to attempt a rewrite in order to accomplish a little more neutrality on the subject? -- joXn 23:54, 2004 Aug 26 (UTC)
:The argument above appears to have been rejected.  Just in case, though, let me add my comment:  the word "heresy" is like the word "rebel".   If you win, you are a "saint" or "revolutionary hero".  If you lose, you are a "heretic" or "rebel".   There's no judgement implied of the beliefs involved; "heretic" in European history is a political term, meaning "on the outs with the Catholic Church." Jberkus 06:14, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does this page need editing for neutrality? 

message: I do not think that the "Albigensian" article should me merged with that of "Cathar". When most people refer to Albigensians they are referring to the later branch of Cathars that was much less indoctrinated with Gnosticism. This later branch became more and more Christian in its beliefs as it neared its extinction by the Inquisition. As a result many of them merged with the Waldensians who paved the way for the protestant reformation.
While this article is very rough and needs cleaned up I believe it is important that it remain as a separate article.
I have some important historical information that I intend to add to it later. Not only encyclopedic and history references but also pertinant information I gathered while studying the Waldensian movement while I was in Piedmont Italy. I had access to many unpublished historical documents while there (which I photocopied). This March I am going to Germany to gather more information and later I intend to go to Languedoc France where the Cathar movement once thrived. 
Fredrick Coneybeare, Gibbons, Moreland, Giorgio Tourn, Emilio Comba, and especially Marvin Arnald are historians that can shed much unbiased light on these early sects.----------               C.D.W.   January, 30, 2006
:With any sensibly expressed reservation like those, no one will want to rush to merge these articles. We await C.D.W.'s edits with pleasure. --Wetman 04:24, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I VOTE NOT TO MERGE ALBIGENSIAN ARTICLE

message: "Their doctrines have numerous resemblances to those of the Bogomils, and still more to those of the Paulicians, with whom they are also sometimes connected."
The entry for Paulicians is a link to Bogomils.  According to that entry, the terms are synonymous. --Townmouse 22:03, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Bogomils = Paulicians?

message: The Voynich manuscript page refers to rumours or ritual assisted suicide among the Cathars, but I can't find any mention of it in the write up.  Is there any historical basis to these rumors?  Are they part of the Catholic conception of the sect?
More curious than anything else, but I imagine that accusations of such should probably fit into the suppression subsection
-J
This is just propaganda IMO.
Ericd 11:44, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ritual suicide? 

message: Greetings. I have been researching women rulership in the midevial periode and came across the Cathars. In all my lititure reguarding women and Cathars they state women were held in far better standing, often leaders of their own local communities. And that Catharism transended the feudal system to include the peasents and nobility. The Troubeldors are cited as heavily influenced by Cathars, as was the ducal house of Poutier. According to my sources, women in the Aqutaine, largely because of the Cathar influence, were able to inherite and rule their own lands in precident to their children or other male relitives as would have been the case in Northern France under Salic. This tradition led to Eleanor of Aqutaine inheriting by right.
Can anyone comment on this? I have not seen the same kind of information in this particular artical and would welcome more discussion on women Cathars and the Aqutaine/Troubordor connection.Drachenfyre
Can we have troubadours spelt correctly please in the title? I've changed it myself as it looks ridiculous --drmike 12:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cathars and Troubadours and Women 

message: The History Channel aired a presentation called, Beyond the Da'Venci code or some such nonsense.  The focus was on conspireacy theory.  The History Channel mentioned that the Cathars worshiped in a cave with a pentacle carved into a rock face.  Is there any truth to this and if so what does it mean for the Pagan community. (206.222.59.166)
:Looking for some fuel to hate Christianity?  TheUnforgiven 17:09, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No truth that I know of. Even if true, I don't see what relevance it would have to neo-Pagans. Paul B 14:03, 1 Aug 2005 (UTC)

text: Utter drivel. I think the name of the programme is enough to expose the content as being historically questionable. Valiant Son 17:51, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

text: A)Is it true? Probably not.  It sounds like something someone dredged out of anti-Cathar propaganda and gave a little twist for modern tastes. I personally take anything I hear on one of the History Channel's specials with a bucketful of salt and a lot of personal research. B)What does it mean for modern Pagans? Nothing whatsoever. Whether or not the Cathars worshiped pentagrams carved in underground underground is completely immaterial to modern Neo-Pagans, as are the vast majority of things in this world and it's history, a fact which seems to annoy many of my co-religionists to no end. (wink)
Paganlady 20:57, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What of the History Channel presentaion recently  

message: The small section about Visigoths seems a bit suspicious. Sources?
:Seems like tosh to me. It was added by TheUnforgiven in unexplained replacement of his equally unsupported earlier claim that the persecution of Cathars was a synonym for attacking the Alans. Paul B 14:10, 1 Aug 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Visigoths? 

message: We should add something about St. Dominic's involvement in the early preaching to and debating with the Cathars, etc. --Jim Henry | Talk 16:12, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  St. Dominic 

message: For those of us without English public school education (vast majority of viewers of Wikipedia) what is "Hos nostra germania catharos appellat."?  Excuse my plebidity Gwaka Lumpa 11:24, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My latin isn't perfect, but I think that means "he names our germans those cathars." I must be making an error somewhere.68.79.115.153 03:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: After searching the article, that sentence is nowhere to be found, are you sure you're not looking at the wrong page or something? 68.79.115.153 03:06, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's there - and wikified for some reason. Paul B 13:55, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Latin without translation

message: "*Christian Rosencreuz, according to some, may have been associated with an underground Cathar movement that hid from the Inquisition. However, this is highly unlikely because there is absolutely no evidence that the Cathar movement still existed by Rosencreuz' time, nor is there any concrete evidence that Rosencreuz existed at all."
This seems incredibly weaselly. Who associated him with the underground Cathar movement? - Ta bu shi da yu 02:54, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed text 

message: Just added the word "Dualist" to the intro. Hope that's OK. 
On the question of the origin of the word Cathar, I'd always held to the idea that it was from a German word for a cat rather than the Greek catharos usually cited. (The medieval Church was not in the habit of giving complimentary names to groups it regarded as enemies). But I recently noticed in "The Other God" a reference to the extraordinary fact that Mani's father belonged to a sect called the Catharioi. This may be a coincidence so I didn't change the text, but interesting, n'est pas. There's a proper reference somewhere on [this website]. 
There's also info on the bogomils on [this site] who seem to have been a distinct bunch from the Paulicians, albeit with much in common. Trollwatcher 19:23, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misc Sources 

message: Changed text to reflect the curious fact that the RC never seems to properly made its mind up whether Catharism was to be considered a Christian heresy or (however absurd the idea) a non-Christian religion. Cathar 16:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heresy ? 

message: --------------------------------------------------------------
I just received a most disturbing phone call.
After I wrote the last paragraph above I began to really feel bad thinking of the possibility that the Assembly of Good Christians (hereafter called AGC) might actually be a legit group. Against my better judgement I wrote them a letter and said I would do all I could to have any derogatory remarks made on the talk forum of Wikipedia about the AGC removed if they would only attempt to communicate with us and verify their validity. Later this evening while I was at the grocery store my wife recieved a very strange  telephone call. When I came home she was as white as a sheet and trembling with fear. As she began relating the strangness of the call she received the telephone rang again. I answered and a very strange voice reminiscent of Vincent Price whispered defiantly to me asking if I knew who he was. He announced he was from the Assembly of Good Christians. He went on to tell me he knew ALL about me, my whole past, and then proceeded to read to me the contents of various private emails I have sent in the Last two years.. He not only knew the contents of these letters but also when they were written and who they were written to. He asked me if I had heard of Security Inc. the largest most powerful company in the world which he was in good graces with. He continued to quote my mail contents and suddenly I realised IT WAS PACKED FULL OF INTERPOLATIONS and damaging things that I had never written mixed in very convincingly smooth with many things I HAD written. He began to name various colleagues I had associated with in the past and let me know that he had damaged my reputation with them. He let me know he had severely damaged a relationship with a dear friend in Maine and assured me that my friend was not going to proceed with a certain project we had planned together. He named numerous colleagues of mine by name. He told me we had underestimated the AGC. He said they were more powerful then we were and that he had more money then I had and that I could not stand against him and the AGC. On several occasions when I would try to  speak he would scream' "BE SILENT!"  He said he knew everything about me. He proceeded to tell me that he had a deal for me. Someone was going to come to my house with an offer. They were going to offer me a place to go that was safe. I asked if he was threatening me. He continued saying they were going to offer me a place to go that was safe. I told him not to threaten my life that I would expose them nationally and I hung up on him. About a half hour later the phone rang again. His voice sounded completely different this time as he hissed threateningly into the telephone. He told me I had made the wrong decision not to take him up on his offer . He said I had come up against a group more powerful then I could imagine and that I would be wise to make things right with the Good God because both I and my family would soon be going to meet him. He told me I had come up against the wrong group of people and  that I would pay for that with my life.  He told me my life was now worth nothing, that I should get things set in order before I am taken out. I hung up the phone.
Although this man was aware of the contents of my Internet mail he was NOT aware of the reasons for them. I am writing a book on Church History and another book on Modern Cults in America as well as gathering material for a television program that I will appear on a segment of which is an expose on cults. What he THOUGHT were inquiries of interest in these cultic groups were actually information I was gathering on an expose of them. WOW did he ever provide me with a load of interesting material! (My last televised expose in 1996 was seen nationally and actually put a man by the name of Wendal Rogers in Farmersville Louisiana in prison for over seven years.) I felt obligated to relate this information to everyone that may be interested in contacting this group. They are certainly cultic and not GOOD Christians in any sense of the word. In the last two years of interviewing  and investigating  different cults this is the first time my life has been threatened.  I just returned from Europe where I met various cult leaders in Germany, France, Holland, and Switzerland and I also met with a lot of genuine Christians and these experiences have helped fine tune my discernment between the two. If anyone reading this has had any similiar threats from the Assembly of Good Christians please contact me. I need as many people as I can that have had bad experiences with this group or others like it to contact me. Simply go to www.uSpeakOUT.com and look up "Assembly of Good Christians and Other Dangerous Non Christian Cults". It is posted by FireSurfer (me).  There is info there on how to contact me. Simply leave a message for Dr. Ward. 
Although the types of things that I have related are anything but pleasant I feel an obligation to make anyone that has inquired, commented on, or criticised the AGC aware of the potential possibility of receiving threats from them. I further suggest we tack onto this article about "Cathars" a warning for people inexperienced with cultic behavior to thoroughly  investigate any esoteric sounding group before getting involved. There is a REASON such people are so far distanced from the mainstream denominations. Be very careful...you may end up paying more then you gambeled for.   CW
:Jeez thats scarey. And I though the Scientologists were scarey. What you described is frightening. Piercetp 07:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: BEWARE OF ASSEMBLIES OF GOOD CHRISTIANS

message: It messes up the formatting and the ToC. Dominick (TALK) 12:38, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don't Add rows of equal signs please 

message: I changed the dates given for the emergence of the Cathars to the 12th century, as this is in line with accepted historical thought. The first mention of the Cathars is form 1143 where Cathars were burned in Cologne and later Bonn. These were identified by churchmen at time as being new heresies.
Despite one of the sources talking of cathar activity in the 11th century in France, this is accepted now to be a different heresy, that in fact the dualist elements olny arrived to Europe via the Balkans in the 1140s. In some catholic sources the Cathars have been portrayed as having been in the areas most severly affected for hundreds of years, however the reality is Cathar teaching probably only reached Languedoc in the 1160s, and then errupted prompting the Albigensian crusade. I would reccomend the Origins part of the text is seriously reworked, as this referrs to heresies not derieved from the Eastern Bogomil heresy. Fredheir 20:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins