Talk:Lastovo/Archive 1

message: Definite POV problems in the history section. It seems HolyRomanEmperor is reaching for anything serbian to connect it to the island as well as anything in southern croatia, hercegovina. Looking at user HolyRomanEmperor it seems this is his specialty. Could I ask HolyRomanEmperor to quote his sources and prove his edits? I would also like to add appropriate evidence contra this. If anything this island was never outright Croat, but enjoyed loose autonomy within the Croatian sphere with never a direct Serbian settlelment or control ever! Using the river Neretva or Cetina is propaganda firstly, however secondly is also not applicable to the island. I think the history needs to be discussed. Uvouvo 22:18, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologize if you characterised my edits like Serbian propaganda; but please view this: De Administrando Imperio. Also refer to Pagania. The Neretvian Slavs are referred to as Serbs quitte a number of times. It is known, that Prince Ceslav Klonimirovic Vlastimirovic ruled the lands (including the island). See his article. That's the full story... --HolyRomanEmperor 13:21, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV problems on History section (Regarding Serbian claims) 

message: From the article HRE (HolyRomanEmpire) writes "Around 950, the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitos mentions Lastovo in his De Administrando Imperio by its Slavic name Lastobon, which proves that it was already inhabited by the Serbian tribe Neretvians."
It does NOT prove this at all. Such proof is for your benefit only. If you want to prove that Neretljani are exclusively Serbian, then do this in the Neretljani wiki pages, such assertions dont need to be made here on the Lastovo page. All non biased historians agree that the southern dalmatian duchies were inhabited by both Croats and Serbs. Serbs tended toward the mountainous hinterland while Croats inhabited the coastal regions. This is affirmed by Professor John V A Fine in his book "The early medieval balkans". If you read Mandic, Jurica, Lucijanovic these would also argue that Croats also inhabited the neretva regions. It is absurd to say it was exclusively Serbian, even the DAI in the different chapters suggest otherwise.
Uvouvo 13:54, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lastovo inhabited by Serbian Neretvans? 

message: Again from the article HRE writes "The island would soon fall to the Croats, but during the Croatian Civil War after the death of King Krešimir around 945 Lastovo is returned by the Neretvians and incorporated into the Serbian Realm of Prince Časlav of Klonimir of the House of Vlastimir."
Firstly how do you know it "fell" to the Croatians? This is leading the reader and is biased making it sound that it was otherwise Serbian when it wasnt "occupied" by the Croatians. If at 945 Lastovo is under the Neretvan political spehere under Prince Caslav Klonimirovic, how does this suggest the inhabitants are Serbs, and where did you find out that Caslav Klonimirovic ruled Lastovo or that Lastovo was even within Neretva district at that time. Let me quote chapter 36 of the DAI which exclusively excludes Lastovo from Netreva / Pagania. Remember Porphyrogenitus wrote this around 950 which means at the height of Caslavs rule...
"Of the Pagani, also called Arentani, and of the country they now dwell in
In Pagania are the inhabited cities of Mokron, Beroullia, Ostrok and Slavinetza. Also, they posses these islands: the large island of Kourkra (Korcula) or Kiker, on which there is a city; another large island Meleta (Mljet) ... another large island, Bratzis (Brac). There are other islands not in the possession of these same Pagani: the island of Choara (Susac), the island of Ies (Vis), the island of Lastobon (Lastovo)"''
Again from the article "HRE writes After the fall of the Serb Realm in the second half of 960, the Byzantines made it their own theme of Serbia. Lastovo would be contested for control but the resurgent Duklja in the 11th century and other medieval factions until its direct incorporation into the Serbian Grand Principality of Rascia in the second half of the 12th century"
What does this have to do with Lastovo. Make another article on the Serb realm falling in 960. Where was it written that Lastovo was contested for control? Duklja in the 11th / 12th Century was hardly Serbian at all until Nemanja conquered Duklja / Zeta. I use the word conquered because he himself writes this. 
In Stefan Nemanja's declaration in 1198 he writes how he forcefully expanded the Serbian state to include Duklja. He writes:
"i priobretoh' od' Mor'ske zemle Zetu i s' gradovi, a od ' Arbanas ' Pilot', a od' Gr'c'ske zemle Lab' s' L'planem...". Also Duklja under Mihajlo had Croatian inhabitants. The DAI doesnt specifically allocate the Serbian ethnicity to Duklja. Furthermore John Skylitzes in his chronicle mentions the following...
"Dukljan King Michael rules over those who call themselves Croats"
The notion of Croats in Duklja is supported with the testimony from Byzantine Chronicler John Scylitza. Lastly Lastovo was never part of Duklja and we can see by this map in 1073 the Dukljanska Drzava which included the southern dalmatian duchies including Raska. http://www.croatia-in-english.com/images/maps/1073.jpg This didnt include Lastovo. However even if it did this does not mean it would be Serbian as I pointed out there are sources saying that Croats were present in the area as well. Here is another map from 1102 (when Croatia entered the Pacta Conventa) http://www.croatia-in-english.com/images/maps/1102.jpg . The other thing is Serbia at the height of its power under Uros never included anything west of Dubrovnik. See this map http://www.croatia-in-english.com/images/maps/1358.jpg . Serbia waged war on Dubrovnik many times and never won. Had they won then fair enough Dubrovnik and surrounding areas may have turned out to be Serb like Duklja. These maps show Lastovo part of "white croatia" in the year 800 as well as during King Tomislav's time in the year 925. Uvouvo 13:54, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lastovo within Caslav's Realm? 

message: Again HRE writes in the article "The Dubrovnik Republic aqcuired Lastovo from the Serbian Kingdom of Rascia of King Stefan Uroš I in 1252 after it promised that Lastovo would keep its internal autonomy."
Wrong again. 1252 is the date Lastovo voluntarily joined the Dubrovnik republic. This is codified in the Dubrovnik Statute written in 1272 only 20 years after Lastovo joined. Its accuracy is accepted by all serious historians. 
XV. glavi I. Knjige Dubrovackog Statua "Notandum est quod, quando homines de Lasta dederunt se et insulam Lasta comuni civitatis Ragusii, hoc pacto dederunt se et insulum suam, videlicet: quod comune Ragussii iuravit manutenere eis omnes antiquas suas consuetudines, quas ipsi inter se habent, et secundum hoc pactum comune Ragussi dedit eam de sua voluntate comiti suo, qui per tempora erit in Ragusio"
The translation to this basically says that the island community Lastovo voluntarily joins the Dubrovnik / Ragusan republic which agree's to honour the islands internal autonomy. The Lastovo Statute written or codified in 1310 also supports this assertion.
I have more to add and will do so in the future. Regards Uvouvo 13:54, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubrovnik aquires Lastovo from the Serbs 

message: State department of statistics and Lexicon of settlements of Croatia call the village Uble. Thats offical. Luka Jačov 19:16, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uble or Ubli 

message: I have created this section for two reasons. Please keep all converstaion related to photo's here, otherwise talk in the correct area's
* I'm not sure who added the main photo's on the lastovo page. I can see they are identical to the ones on the lastovo tourist page, and the other map looks like it is from a copyrighted book. Has anyone verified the copyright on these?
* I will upload some photo's i have personally taken sometime tonight / tomorrow, and then we will see if any merit inclusion Uvouvo 02:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lastovo photo's 

message: Hello there, the talk page was getting too confusing with the sidetracked debate on Duklja. I removed all the discussion regarding that topic to Pokladar talk page (hope you dont mind - if you do please revert then). I however did extract from that discussion any points pertaining to Lastovo and re-integrated them back here. There is still much to discuss, and HRE I thankyou for providing such a stimulating discussion - Although my stance that your a greater serb manipulator still stands :)
Above is all the discussion up until Luka Jacov's edit on the 16th February 2006 where he removed Caslav's realm. Everyone was happy with this article until HRE reverted it back after nearly a month on 10th March 2006. This is the part in contention...
The island would soon become a part of Croatia, but during the Croatian Civil War after the death of King Krešimir around 945, Lastovo is conquered by the Neretvians under Serbian Prince Časlav of Klonimir of the House of Vlastimir. After the fall of the Serbian Realm in the second half of the 9th century, the Byzantines captured the island. The island was a part of Duklja in the 11th century.
I will leave the article for the moment to avoid an invevitable edit war with HRE. I will discuss this article in detail along with my complete edit of the article when i get the time to do it. I will also document and discuss all changes.
Lastly, can we all please stick within the discussion area's i.e. Talk on Photos to stay in that section or talk on Ubli / Uble to stay there - Thanks Uvouvo 02:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note HRE / Pokladar - Discussion