Talk:British White cattle

message: It seems a little unfair to describe the historians as bovine. Could we not substitute "historians of cattle breeds"? Jatrius 22:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bovine historians

message: We've had several edits with reversions recently.  I thought I'd explain my position...  
Like every WP article, this one needs to start with a definition and summary of the subject: the modern cattle breed, the British White.  Like all breed articles, it then needs needs to describe the physical and other characteristics of the breed, its uses, and its history. 
The breed does have a long history, but only those facts which can be supported with reliable references belong in this article.  For example, there is no direct evidence of a connection between British Whites and ancient Celtic cattle (in fact the same goes for the White Park).  There may be a connection, but it could just as easily be a superficial similarity, and we must stick with demonstrable facts, not speculation and hopeful interpretation.  Likewise, references from the 10th century to white polled cattle do not show that these were British Whites.  As a British BW breeder, I would dearly love to believe that my cattle are direct descendents of the cattle kept by what might have been my own ancient ancestors – but my romantic dreams are not encyclopaedic.
Having said all that, I don't see why the information on ancient white British Isles cattle should not go elsewhere on WP.  It is interesting historical and anthropological information which is academically respectable: we do know that there is a very long tradition of valuing white cattle with red or black points, there are references to support this knowledge.  However, we don't know what happened to those cattle – for all we know they have no descendents, and the modern white breeds come from elsewhere or arose spontanously.  So I think the ancient cattle material belongs in its own article, not in those about surviving breeds whose origins cannot be proven.  How about calling it "Ancient white cattle of the British Isles"?  The most we can say at present about British Whites (and White Parks) is that in some way they continue the ancient tradition – but that can easily be dealt with by a "see also" link to an ancient white cattle article.
I would be happy to see a direct connection with ancient cattle mentioned if references can be found proving that there is a direct link – for example, if a white, colour-pointed Bronze Age skin was found and its genetic material analysed, it might be shown to be more closely related to modern White Parks or British Whites than to other modern cattle.  However, unless such references are provided, the material cannot be included in an encyclopaedia.  Richard New Forest (talk) 21:39, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Article structure and content

message: It has been quite a while since I looked at this Wikipedia description of British White cattle.  I find it interesting that some author has seen fit to edit out/exclude the hard verifiable data (which I provided here long ago with all proper citations) from the author, Hall, which clearly states the horned White Park are the product of among other breeds, the Longhorn, etc... Yet the author has seen fit to include, without reference, the vague statement of Shorthorn introduction into the polled Park cattle, known as British White cattle since the mid-40's or so, and thus inferring they are the product of Shorthorn additions and less genetically pure.   
In reality a shorthorn bull was used in one herd a very long time ago, the Woodbastwick herd, and unlike the White Park cattle association and members in the UK, this fact is not hidden.  And this fact in no way makes the British White less pure of a descendant of the ancient Park cattle than the horned White Park, but rather, in my opinion, makes them more genetically pure and connected with their ancient white, hornless, and gentle bovine ancestors.
Just because the White Park cattle folks in the UK wish to ignore the real facts of the breeds background, and continuously try to say they are genetically distinct from the polled British White and more 'pure' than any other in the UK -- a source such as this article should not fall into that trap of believing the propaganda.  Historically, the posturing of the horned White Park breeders has been refuted by many researches for almost 200 hundred years.  Further, the specimens of horned White Park used for any so-called genetic testing many many years ago, would have been genetically different from the polled Park cattle given the strong influence of the English Longhorn in perpetuating the horned Park cattle's existence.  A simple review of historical photos reveals the various horn lengths and shapes found over the years, fairly obvious they are not 'pure'.  
As well, it has been speculated for over a hundred years by agricultural writers that the polled Park Cattle/British White are in fact the ancestor of the Shorthorn, not the other way around. 
Jimmie West
98.20.50.32 (talk) 15:10, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This is clearly not the article in which to discuss the ancestry of the White Park: it's not about that breed but about the British White.  Also, Wikpedia talk pages are not the place for inter-breed bickering.  If you consider that facts included in this article are incorrect, please tag them as requiring citations.  Richard New Forest (talk) 17:31, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Ancestry and reffed material

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Anglo-Nubian which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 13:44, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Move discussion

message: * :British White → 
* :Welsh Black → 
* :Florida White → 
* :Anatolian Black → 
* :Anglo-Nubian → 
* :Nicastrese → 
* :Argentine Criollo → 
* :Indo-Brazilian → 
– All of these are descriptive of genuine human ethnicities or populations, and only animal breed experts would intuit that they don't refer to people, so the existing names fail WP:PRECISION policy (and probably also WP:RECOGNIZABLE, since only experts in obscure breeds of particular kinds of livestock, not agricultural animals generally, will recognize them at all). We routinely (and WP:NATURALly) disambiguate animal breed names in any cases where confusion may result. See months of previous RMs, and the contents of :Category:Cattle breeds, :Category:Goat breeds, :Category:Rabbit breeds, etc.  There was a previous, less focused, RM at Talk:Anglo-Nubian#Requested moves in October, which failed to come to consensus, so I'm relisting the ones that are definitely applicable to real humans, not just possibly mistakable for them.  In detail, the first four are terms for someone respectively of primarily black (African) or white (European) ancestry in the regions in question; Anglo-Nubian may refer to mixed-race persons in Africa or the African diaspora during or after the British Colonial period; Nicastrese refers to anyone or anything from Nicastro (it's simply an adjectival local geonym like "Dubliner" or "Parisian"); the Argentine Criollo people are an extant regional ethnicity, and the breed doesn't even seem to be named after them (rather, they're a Criollo cattle breed of Argentine stock); Indo-Brazillian and Indo-Caribbean are real ethnicities, arising from the intermingling of Indic manual laborers ("coolies") with the extant population during and after the construction of the Panama Canal and various railway and mining projects in South and Central America (the strong regional presence of these people south of Mexico is why curry is a common dish in many Latin American and Caribbean cuisines). NB: The move to Anglo-Nubian goat has been requested, uncontested, since 2011 for the same reason given in this RM; see its talk page. PS: The "Black" and "White" cases are also covered by the previous RM at Talk:Flemish Giant rabbit#Requested moves, which concluded in favor of WP:NATURAL disambiguation of animal breed article names that are simply adjectives that could refer to anything; given this, Uzbek Black should also move to Uzbek Black goat.   — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  14:09, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested moves 19 December 2014

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thread_title:  External links modified