Talk:Che Guevara/Archive 2

message: Under the Cuba section this text can be found: "He personally executed Eutimio Guerra, a suspected Batista informant, with a single shot from his .32 caliber (7.65 mm, likely a Soviet-made Makarov) pistol."
Either it was a .32/7.65mm pistol or a Makarov. The Makarov uses the 9x18mm Makarov cartridge. Since I really can't say which is right, or what the weapon in question really was, I didn't want to edit the entry. (I've also just registered, although I have been using Wikipedia for a while. Besides, this is really nitpicking...)
Offhand, I'd guess the Makarov wasn't all too available at the time. Perhaps this was a Soviet Tokarev TT pistol (this used the same 7.62mm ammunition as the PPSh)?
--Karl Gunnarsson 01:34, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Type of weapon 

message: I see this was recently anonymously changed from Rosario (I know where that is, it's a city, it's where I thought he was from) to Lancia. No citation (or even edit summary) was given. Does anyone have a citation either way? -- Jmabel | Talk 21:25, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
Rosario is correct according to The Che Handbook  and several other books I have.--Garsanllean 17:03, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birthplace 

message: A recent anon edit changed the number of Granma survivors from 12 to 16 without citation. Since the old number wasn't cited either, I have no idea which was correct, but I presume someone has a citation on this; could you please present it? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:58, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
The Granma arrived on 25th November 1956. According to The Che Handbook  by the end of December "only 15 of the original 82 guerillas remained, the others being either dead, missing, or taken prisoner".--Garsanllean 17:09, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Granma'' survivors 

message: Cut from article:
:for his outspoken opposition to all forms of imperialism and neocolonialism and ...
Communists generally have opposed only "Western" imperialism or colonialism, while overlooking or even endorsing Soviet imperialism and colonialism (and/or that of other Communist forces). The gist is that Marxism-Leninism is not opposed to these things per se, but only insomuch as they represent obstacles to a Communist victory. Recall that Communist morality is not absolute, but measures all things good and bad in terms of how well it "advances communism".
Communists like to say they are against various Western abuses, but they say this chiefly to condemn the West - rather than out of a belief that these things are bad in and of themselves.
I'm guessing that Che only opposed Western imperialism, but if there's any record that he opposed Soviet or Cuban imperialism as well (as in Angola) that would make for a very interesting article! -- Uncle Ed (talk) 19:00, May 5, 2005 (UTC)
::Hah! Cuban imperialism in angola... right... Che did indeed oppose soviet imperialism, hence the breakdown of his relationship with moscow near the end.-- Revolutionary Left |  Che y Marijuana 19:55, May 5, 2005 (UTC)
::Cuban intervention in Angola, certainly. They had several thousand troops there (tens of thousands?), essentially serving as a Soviet proxy. J. Parker Stone 4 July 2005 23:39 (UTC)
:: Guevara seemed all too willing to prostitue Cuba out to the Soviets, ala nuclear weapons, when it was convient for him to do so. TDC 20:44, May 8, 2005 (UTC)
::Castro made the choice to align Cuba with USSR not Guevara. While Guevara was a convicted marxist and an idealist it's not certain than Castro was once really believed in marxism. Castro was a pragmatic, the Cuban crisis killed the dream of real idependance for Cuba and Castro choosed USSR against the USA. Guevara never fully understood it and criticized USSR in several occasions. At the end of his life Guevara was ideologically something else than a marxist-leninist as he intended to pursue the Revolution at World scale (a Trotskyist idea) that's why it was better for Castro and the USSR to send Guevara elsewhere. Ericd 21:03, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Attitudes toward imperialism

message: While it makes perfect sense to include links that are intellectually critical of Guevara, the articles by one Humberto Fontova that are currently in the Links section of this page are anything but that. I especially point to the following links: 
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y04/feb04/24e6.htm
http://www.lewrockwell.com/fontova/fontova44.html
http://www.sfherald.com/columnists/fontova/the_real_che.html
These are not impartial criticism of Guevara making a well-thought out analysis on him, but rather hissy fits regarding Che Guevara. I consider these links inappropriate to have on a site that is supposed to be informational for the following reasons:
* The first article accuses Cuba, and Fidel Castro and Che Guevara in particular, of crimes worse than Nazi Germany.
* It also makes unfounded accusations of psychological torture on prisoners by the hands of Guevara.
* It also refers to Guevara as a coward.
* It makes a silly criticism about Che's opinions and writings supposedly being "boring".
* Finally, Che is being called "monumentally vain and epically stupid. He was shallow, boorish, cruel and cowardly. He was full of himself, a consummate fraud and an intellectual vacuum. He was intoxicated with a few vapid slogans, spoke in clichés and was a glutton for publicity." Surely these petty insults do not have to be linked to by a page like Wikipedia?
* The second article is a hissy fit about some celebrity wearing a shirt in the image of Guevara at the Oscars. It only serves to make fun of this celebrity and complain more about Guevara.
* It also features a horror story by one Pierre San Martin, in which Guevara supposedly blew the head off a 12-year-old and fired away on protesting prisoners in San Martin's cell. As a Google search for "Pierre San Martin" reveals nothing but Fontova's same petty rant or a translation of it in other languages, it is quite likely that this man has never existed. 
* It once again features the same accusation of cowardice that has been seen before.
* To top it all off, Mr Fontova has this to say about Guevara in closing: "This swinish and murdering coward, this child-killer, was the toast of the Oscars."
* The page also features a link to an index of more works by Fontova, with about the same intellectual value as the ones we're discussing here.
* The third link has about the same features as the other two. Whining about a celebrity carrying the image of Che? Check. Accusation of cowardice? Check. Accusation of cruelty to POWs? Check. Accusations of military incompetence? Check. Accusation of mass murder? Check. Another accusation of cowardice? Check.
While they are a great comic relief compared to all the serious articles on Che, their hilarity does not justify them being linked to by an informative site like Wikipedia. I'm removing them, if anybody seriously wants them back, we can always discuss it here, the links are posted above for review.
--Eyeflash 17:45, 14 June 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Certain links

message: "When the police killed him for leading a failed peasant revolt, Ché was wearing a gold watch."
It is said in the article that it was a Rolex.
--
Chris
::Actually, it is probable that when he was killed, Che was wearing two Rolexes.  And this is why: Fidel Castro has stated that, before Che and his fellow guerrillas departed from Cuba for Bolivia, he gave a gold Rolex watch to each of them. This was in keeping with a tradition he had established in the Sierra Maestra when he gave a Rolex to each of his associates who was promoted to Comandante, along with the small gold star which was the insignia of that rank. The main reason for giving the Rolexes was that it is necessary for a field commander to have a precision time piece because synchronicity is essential for military operations.  Rolex was an obvious choice given its reputation for accuracy and reliability.  So, one of the Rolexes that Che was wearing when he was captured in Bolivia was no doubt the one given to him by Fidel just prior to his departure from Cuba in October 1966.
::The second Rolex he was wearing must have been the one that had belonged to his close friend, Tuma, who had fallen in combat and died in his arms on June 26, 1967.  After he expired, Che took his Rolex and slipped it onto his own wrist with the intention of one day giving it to Tuma's newborn son in Cuba whom he had never seen.
::Perhaps you are wondering what had become of the Rolex that Fidel had given Che when he was promoted to Comandante in the Sierra Maestra on July 22, 1958?  That watch was one of his most prized possessions --  in fact, probably his only prized possession, given his general disdain for all things material (except books). His father, mother, sister Celia and brother Juan Martín came to visit him in Cuba shortly after the triumph of the revolution in January, 1959.  This was the first time they had all seen each other in six years, and would be the last time Che would ever see his father. As they were saying goodbye in the Havana airport, Che's father took off his watch -- which was an antique pendant watch that originally had belonged to his late mother, Che's beloved grandmother Ana Lynch y Ortíz, that he had had converted into a man's wristwatch by a Buenos Aires jeweler -- and handed it to his son.  Very moved, Che slipped off his own watch and pressed it into his father's hand, explaining that it had been given to him by Fidel at the time he was promoted to Comandante.  His father treasured that watch always and wore it every day for the rest of his life. (He died in 1987.) Hope this helps to answer your question ... Polaris999 03:06, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  is this true? 

message: 01 September 2005
Perhaps someone would like to correct the section re the Congo. Che left Cuba after renouncing his Cuban citizenship in April 1965 -- he was definitely not leading a guerrilla movement in the Congo in 1964.  Also, because of this sequence of events, the section on the Wiki page re the Congo should follow, not precede, the section about Che leaving Cuba.
::Note: Since no one else undertook to do this, I did it myself.  Polaris999 03:05, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Congo Dates Are Wrong +  

message: 1.  "distant grandfather" -- this peculiar language caught my attention also and I was about to change it to "ancestor" when it occurred to me that "ancestor" is sometimes used, albeit incorrectly, when there is not a direct line of descent whereas saying "distant grandfather" clarifies that issue.  How do you feel about "forebear"?
:* "Forbear" would be fine with me. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:33, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
2.  Thank you very much for pointing out that typo of "LL" where it should be "Ll" -- I'll fix it, if you haven't already.  
3.  The claim re Castro perceiving Che as a "rival" is expressed elsewhere in this article but there too it is unsourced. I think that, in reality, Fidel perceived Che more as a "loose cannon" than as a threat to his hold on power.  Be that as it may, I certainly agree with you that any claims about their relationship should be accompanied by citations and hope that the person(s) who inserted those claims into this article will add the appropriate citations.
Polaris999 19:05, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re Several Questions 

message: In one place in this article it says "Rodriguez had removed Guevara's hands to send to different parts of the world to verify his identity." In another place, it says "Also his hands were cut off and sent to Fidel Castro."
Is there documentation for the statement that it was Felix Rodriguez who cut off Che's hands? If so, would someone please attach the citation?
It is well known that in 1968 Che's hands, preserved in a jar of formaldehyde, were sent to Fidel Castro by Bolivian Interior Minister Antonio Arguedas; I am not aware of any evidence that suggests they had ever been sent to "different parts of the world to verify his identity".  It is my understanding that his identity was confirmed by fingerprint analysis which was performed by two Argentine forensic experts who were sent to Bolivia for the purpose of comparing the prints taken from the body to ones known to be Che's that were on file in Buenos Aires.
Polaris999 20:49, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:   Contradictory Statements 

message: A couple of minutes ago, when I tried to save a minor edit I had just done to improve the formatting of the caption on the lead photo, the SAVE was blocked and I got the following message from Wiki:
"The page you wanted to save was blocked by the spam filter. This is probably caused by a link to an external site.
"See m:Spam blacklist for a full list of blocked sites. If you believe that the spam filter is mistakenly blocking the edit, then please contact an m:Administrator. The following is the section of the page that triggered the filter:
"The following text is what triggered our spam filter: http://chehasta.nar--.ru  "  (where the two dashes represent the letters "od")
I tried again to save the page, but received the same message.  Then I searched for the link mentioned in the error message and deleted it from the text of the article.  After that, I was able to save the page without any problem.
Polaris999 04:57, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Had to remove link 

message: What do we need to do to resolve the NPOV status of this article?  I notice that Wiki says that there are too many articles in the NPOV category and that every effort should be made to remedy their problems and move them out ... Help anyone??
Polaris999 03:08, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Peer review is one step from pushing for Featured Article status. I'm not sure this is there (and it's difficult to impossible to get FA status for an article that isn't stable). But since no one came forward in over 48 hours to tell you what they think still merits an NPOV flag, it certainly would be reasonable to remove it. Hopefully anyone who wants to put it back will be more specific. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:24, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Many thanks, Jmabel, for your very helpful reply.  I will proceed to remove the NPOV flag and then we will see what happens ... I would like to get this article into the best shape possible in time for October 9 when it will be linked to as a "Featured Anniversary". Polaris999 06:32, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV Flag 

message: I have noticed that this page has two "sets" of notes currently ongoing.  The first set, all of which are displayed in the text in superscript, are footnotes (at present 1-5), which according to the wiki "help" page concerning notes is the only approved usage, viz.:
:Three ways to link to external (non-wiki) sources:
::Bare URL: http://www.nupedia.com/ (bad style) 
::Unnamed link: [1] (only used within article body for footnotes) 
::Named link: Nupedia 
But there is another set of notes, numbered 1 and 2, that are not superscripted.  These notes are not footnotes but rather links to external sources.
Furthermore, even footnotes(1-5) that are in correct format are not in the currently preferred wiki style that uses names rather than numbers, so it would seem that all of the notes in this article need to be re-done to eliminate the existing duplication and incorrect format, and also to bring them into conformity with preferred wiki standards.
Polaris999 22:18, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I just corrected this problem.  All references/footnotes are now in the wiki-preferred alpha style, including those two troublesome external links.Polaris999 00:22, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Footnote Problem 

message: Is his name pronounced like Chey Ga-veh-raa?
:More like: Cheh Geh-vah-rah
Polaris999 19:58, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes -- I couldn't figure out how to represent that sound precisely. Perhaps the person who wrote the information about the pronunciation of "Che" in the Guatemala section of this article will do a phoenetic rendering of "Guevara" as well ... Polaris999 04:24, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: At present, the article contains the following text:
"In 1959, he was appointed commander of the La Cabaña Fortress prison. During his term as commander of the fortress from 1959–1963, he oversaw the hasty trials and executions of many former Batista regime officials, including members of the BRAC[2] secret police (some sources say 156 people, others estimate as many as 500)."  
The dates given here for his tenure at La Cabaña, i.e.,"1959-1963", are not ones that I have ever seen elsewhere.  It is my understanding that he was in command of La Cabaña from his arrival there on January 2, 1959 until his departure from Cuba on June 12, 1959 at the head of a diplomatic and commercial delegation that visited various countries in Asia, Africa and Europe. Upon returning to Cuba in September, he did not go back to La Cabaña but rather took up a new post as Director of Industrialization at INRA (the National Institute for Agrarian Reform). Both Anderson and Castañeda support this version of events.  Therefore, I would like to request that the person who wrote that Guevara was the commander of La Cabaña from "1959-1963" kindly provide a citation for that statement and that, if it cannot be properly sourced, the dates be changed to correspond with those used by Anderson and Castañeda.  Polaris999 05:29, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Since no one has provided a citation for "1959-1963", I am now going to change it to the dates given by Anderson and Castañeda.  Polaris999 19:09, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that was one of TDC additions all his contributions were unsourced. Ericd 21:33, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for comments, verification of dates in the ''Revolutionary government'' section 

message: A lot recently added photos have no copyright tag. Ericd 21:38, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been trying to ascertain the status of the photograph of Felix Rodriguez standing next to Che, and have discovered that this photo was taken on the order of Rodriguez while he was operating as a contract employee of the CIA, and was turned over by him to the CIA.  Does anyone know what the copyright status of photos belonging to the CIA and/or other US government agencies is? Or how one could find this out? Polaris999 23:11, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Pretty much everything from the US government is public domain. See Work of the United States Government. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:53, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you very much for this information.  I think that the copyright status of most of the photos has now been cleared up, except for Constructinghome.jpg which was uploaded by NWOG.  I had never seen this photo before and have not been able to locate any information about it.  Perhaps NWOG will provide additional data about it that would help us to determine its status.  Otherwise, we can replace it with one of Che doing volunteer labor on the docks or cutting sugarcane, both of which were postcards in Cuba in the mid-sixties and so would be either fair use or public domain ... Polaris999 07:08, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyright status for photos

message: At 05:14 on 18 September 2005, an unregistered user changed the adjective in the first sentence of the lead paragraph in the Che article from "Marxist" to "Communist".  I am wondering how other wikipedians feel about this change?  Although Che held ideals that may be described as communist [and were so described by him], he never belonged to any Communist party.  It would therefore seem to me that the adjective "Marxist" is more appropriate here, but I would like to hear what others think about this ...   Polaris999 22:36, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Marxist" -- Jmabel | Talk 05:30, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you for your input.  I just reverted it to "Marxist".  Polaris999 06:01, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments requested re "Marxist" or "Communist" in this article

message: I dont honestly know enough about the subject to identify any specific instances, but it appears to me that the Article is very reliant on Guevara's diaries, especially for the later period of his life. Obviously, the reason why is the lack of reliable sources on this time. But nevertheless, I'd be loath to describe ANY autobiographic source as unbiased. --RaiderAspect 11:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overreliance on Diaries? 

message: I have removed a paragraph in the section "Hero Cult" - namely the following:
"Guevara, who murdered numerous people, and who jointly presided over the Cuban Communist movement that murdered thousands, has been adopted as the symbol of the Crypto-Communist "Anti-Globalization Campaign" as a "symbol of peace"! "
The text is clearly marked by significant anti-Guevara and anti-leftist bias; even though it couldn't hurt to include a passage about the use and significance of Che's image for current groups that may or may not have any affiliation with his life and thought (antiglobalism, popculture), this version is not at all fit for Wiki-material.
Please rewrite the section, as soon as a consensus on the substance is reached. 
Thanks, --212.123.167.171 14:55, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Symbol of Peace" 

message: In the section Criticism, praise, etc., someone has failed to enter an item in correct wiki format; I have highlighted this item in red below.  As a result of the incorrect manner in which this item was entered, it is appearing as footnote #20, although it is not a footnote at all, and therefore threatens to destroy the format of the entire article.  Because of this, I am removing it and hope that the wikipedian who entered it will be careful to use the correct syntax if he/she wishes to enter it again. 
Ernesto "Che" Guevara, 1928-1967 Critical look at Guevara's life from an anarchist perspective.<BR> 
Hasta siempre, Comandante, popular song by Carlos Puebla (lyrics, notation, and several digital audio formats) <BR>
Hasta siempre, Comandante performed by Carlos Puebla and his group Los Tradicionales, in RealPlayer format -- click to listen <BR>
Carta al Che performed by Carlos Puebla and his group Los Tradicionales, in .wav format -- click to listen <BR>
[20]]Fidel's Executioner<BR> 
By Humberto Fontova<BR>
Polaris999 04:01, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Problem with syntax

message: I wrote much of the content in this article a little over a year ago. Since then this article has been loaded once again with way too many iconic images of Guevara. This is unencyclopedic, as the article is on the real Guevara-- not the icon in Communist agitprop or Western pop culture. I'm going to go ahead and remove some of the iconic photos. 172 | Talk 18:41, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Photos

message: As this is an article about the man Ernesto Guevara, I thought it might be better if we would create a seperate article for the unfortunate commercialization of Ernesto's image. It has nothing to do with who Che was, and he always had a feeling of intense dislike of celebrities, commercialization, hero worshipping, etc. So I suggest we create a seperate article for that. 
- NWOG, 01:24, 22 October 2005
No one can argue with your point. But I don't see the problem with keeping the section on the hero cult toward the end, so long as it stays within reasonable limits. 172 | Talk 01:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creating a seperate article? "Hero cult"