Template talk:Prophets in the Hebrew Bible

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Dbiel (Talk) 01:18, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: How to use this Template

message: I reverted it for now to the original one, I'm not sure where this is heading though. Epson291 07:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I split the previous entry off of the prior topic and gave it a new heading. Dbiel (Talk) 19:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Apologies, actually the big pictures are the "original" but who's counting, I don't care either way. Epson291 03:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Logo changes and recent reverts

message: The talmud doesn't list noah and adam as prophets but later jewish texts list them as prophets
--Java7837 20:15, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Which texts? Epson291 07:22, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Can you please verify it before readding it? I'm only familar with the 55 prophets accoridng to the Talmud, that is what i learned. Epson291 03:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Jewish section

message: The Talmud (Megillah 14a) says that there were 48 Jewish male prophets and 7 female prophets. The Talmud lists the female prophets as: Sarah, Miria, Deborah, Hannah, Abigail, Huldah, and Esther. The Talmud does not list the exact reckoning of the 48 male prophets. The commentaries on the Talmud there scramble to list the 48 prophets. Rabbeinu Chananel offers one method of listing the 48. Rashi quotes in the name of Rabbi Simeon Kayyara another reckoning of the 48, and the Vilna Gaon and Rabbi Joel Sirkes offer textual emendations to  version of Rashi which in essence two more reckonings of the 48 prophets. AND Rabbi Jehiel ben Solomon Heilprin offers an alternate version of the quote from Rabbi Simeon Kayyara. So, it's a big issue how to count the 48 prophets, especially because in Rashi's own counting, he only lists 46 and says that there are two more that he doesn't know their identities. The commentators, including Rabbi Abraham Maskileison, Rabbi Yehudah Aryeh Leib Alter, Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Chajes, The Netziv and Rabbi Aryeh Leib ben Asher Gunzberg also try to figure the identities of the two prophets who Rashi left out. Should I bother typing up all the details of this discussion in English? --רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 22:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See User:Rachack/48 Prophets. --רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 19:05, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Forty-Eight Prophets and Seven Prophetesses 

message: the talmud says thus "They were better than he, because they were prophets, and be, Daniel, was not a prophet." http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t04/meg02.htm
--Java7837 18:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Why is Daniel not considered a prophet by the jews

message: Can the Judeo-Christian section, and the jewish section lists be alphabetized--Java7837 18:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be inclined to keep the present chronological approach with divisions for Torah and other eras. - Fayenatic london (talk) 20:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestion

message: ) clearly identifies abel as a prophet --Java7837 20:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Christianity -abel

message: see http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Chronicles%2024:20-22&version=31 
and http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2011:50-11:51&version=31
--Java7837 20:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good work, although I wasn't serious when I originally suggested adding Abel and Zechariah - I simply meant to point out how complicated it could become.  I think the template has got rather messy at the moment.  We also need a new article for Jehu son of Hanani  &  (is that one man or two?) because there's currently only a page for Jehu the butcher-king son of Nimshi (1 Kings 19:16, 2 Kings 9 - 10) who was in no way a prophet.   Fayenatic london (talk) 22:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Now that is what I call a stubby stub! At least it gets the butcher off the template. - Fayenatic london (talk) 20:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Christianity zechariah

message: http://www.halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_17.html
says they prophesied "Moses shall die and Joshua shall bring Israel into the land" and thus are not false prophets like christians consider them to be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Java7837 (talk • contribs) 16:31, 22 July 2007
:I don't know which Christians you had in mind; I did a quick Google search and only found one wacky apocalyptic site that seemed to suggest this.  Mainstream Christians have no quarrel with Eldad and Medad being genuine, e.g. Catholic Encyclopedia. - Fayenatic london (talk) 09:52, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Eldad and Medad

message: I have moved Eldad and Medad from the jewish section to the both section per the comment above by Fayenatic london --Java7837 14:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Does the Bible always mean the same thing by "prophesied"? These seem to be groups of people making estatic utterances by the Spirit of God. No disrespect to them, but shouldn't the status of "prophet" be reserved for those who speak the inspired word of God to the people, rather than just to/among themselves? I would think that was the intention of the Talmud's 48 + 7. In the New Testament too, there is a distinction between the gift of prophesying and the role of prophet. - Fayenatic london (talk) 20:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: additions to the prophets of christianity and judaism

message: Hebrews 11:32-33 says" 32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions,"
Is this saying Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah are prophets?--Java7837 14:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so. It's a fascinating chapter, isn't it? Notable enough to have its own article here one day. - Fayenatic london (talk) 20:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Question for christians

message: In all the arguments someone forgot to actually edit the articles Prophet and Prophecy. I have taken this upon myself, in the process moving the Prophecy article from charismatic Christianity project to A-graded Wikiproject Judaism portal. There is much work to be done since the original article included oracles, and fictional books from 'new age' perspective as well as Greek mythology! 
I have not begun on the Prophet article yet, but that also needs an expensive rewrite.
The post "Worksheet for reviewing names of Prophets from the Protestant point of view" on defining prophets is actually NAMING prophets since a definition of a prophet is somewhat longer, and as Rambam zl"l points out, comes in many levels.--Mrg3105 23:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prophets and prophecy articles 

message: see http://www.chabad.org/library/article.htm/aid/8174/showrashi/true/jewish/Chapter-10.html  look for verse 25--Java7837 04:49, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It has taken until today for Til Eulenspiegel to remove Eber. The above link is just the Bible text of Genesis chapter 10 which lists him and his sons. – Fayenatic London 20:12, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Eber

message: see
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/pol/pol04.htm --Java7837 19:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Kenan

message: says Joseph is extolled by the Rabbis for being well versed in the Torah, for being a prophet, and for supporting his brothers (Tan., Wayesheb, 20)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Java7837 (talk • contribs) 14:56, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: addition to the jewish section

message: Is Joseph (Genesis) considered a prophet in Christianity? --69.153.67.219 11:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No. He is not mentioned in the Catholic Encyclopedia page on prophets linked above re #Eldad and Medad, and I can't think of any Protestants who have taught that he was. Fayenatic (talk) 12:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Interesting. Prophets of Christianity gives  as the supporting reference, in which Joseph was given a dream foreseeing the future.  I was going to respond, if that makes him a prophet, then so is Nebuchadnezzar a prophet!  No, Christianity emphasises prophecy as speaking the words of God, rather than foreseeing future events. Neither Joseph nor Nebuchadnezzar.  I'll move such people to a new section of that article. - Fayenatic (talk) 13:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Is Joseph (Genesis) considered a prophet in Christianity

message: The black one looks best on the template. The blue looks funny and #3 is fuzzy, besides being a png and not an svg. -- Avi 03:01, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Star 

message: see
http://sacred-texts.com/jud/hl/hl37.htm --Java7837 19:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rebecca

message: see http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/loj/loj106.htm and
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/gfp128.htm  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Java7837 (talk • contribs) 19:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Noah

message: Ten priests and prophets descended from Rahab, upon whom rested the Holy Spirit, because she sent the spies away for three days, knowing that they would be safe after that. The following are the priests and prophets: Jeremiah, Hilkiah, Sariah, Machsia, Hanomel, Salom, Baruch, Neriah, Ezekiel and BoozaMid. Ruth 2.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.43.79.238 (talk) 22:08, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: More that i will add later

message: Most of these prophets are prophets of Islam too, why not rename the title of the template as to include Islam (so, for example, instead of "Prophets of Judaism and Christianity" say "Prophets of Judaism, Christianity and Islam" or "Prophets of the Abrahamic religions"), or leave out the religions and just say "Prophets of the Tenakh"? I'd prefer the last. Jacob 23:40, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here are some reasons: 
# Christians do not have a definitive list of prophets, other than the authors of the prophetic books in scripture. Jewish tradition defines the 48 + 7, so it makes sense for Christians to share a template based on that, adding at least Daniel whom Christians recognise as a prophet. 
# The list of prophets in Islam overlaps but is different enough that a separate template makes sense. 
# There is already a separate Template:Prophets in the Qur'an, and it has other distinctive features which mean it would not be very appropriate to merge with this one, e.g. links to "Islamic view of" various prophets. 
# Many Christians are not familiar with the word Tanakh. - Fayenatic (talk) 13:22, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Islam

message: see 1 chronicles 25:3--Java7837 01:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Jeduthun

message: Should prophetesses be colored a different color such as yellow?--Java7837 05:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, and I have reverted the strange choice to try and make female prophets "stand out" from male prophets in the template. Sherurcij (speaker for the dead)  07:47, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Prophetesses

message: see http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=57&letter=R&search=Prophetess#1  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Java7837 (talk • contribs) 21:13, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rachel

message: I have reorganised this template along the following lines:
*Create meaningful groups instead of the previous unexplained groupings.
*I removed
**those items that had no WP article of any sort (Shallum etc.) or didn't even try (Saul's men) - this template is for navigation within WP, not for giving a comprehensive list. Also a mere mention of "X prophesied" is not enough to merit inclusion. 
**those that I could find nothing about her being a prophet, i.e. Bitja (who appears in the Torah but without that name) and Balak (nothing even remotely calls him a prophet. He hired a prophet but was not one himself.
**anyone not appearing in the Hebrew Bible
*I avoided the dichotomy Judaism vs. Christianity as the template title had nothing about this. The distinction may also create the misperception that some of those mentioned are rejected by one or the other religion, when it is actually merely about calling someone a prophet or not.
*I have denoted controverses about the prophet status by putting names in italics. This does not say who disputes such a status but this is anyway not always that easy as Jews and Christians may disagree amon themselves.
*I removed the symbols. Whoever said that templates need to have symbols? 
*All the Genesis people I have lumped together under "Patriarchs". This also avoids putting "Noah" under non-Jewish, which might be technically true but is quite a different thing than the non-Jewishness of Job or Balaam. Note that I have used the more proper word "Israelite" throughout the template for any descendent of Jacob.
*All the Israelite/Jewish prophets appearing in the rest of the Torah I have put into one group.
*Balaam (from Numeri) and other gentile prophet form a separate group. Note that Balaam is recognised as a prophet by Christians - though his questionable character does not make him prone to be honoured.
*Under "Prophets mentioned in the First Prophets" I have put all the prophets from the settlement in Canaan to the exile, except for the Major and Minor prophets. 
**Joshua and Pinchas prove difficult but I have put them into those groups in which their most renowned deeds are placed: Joshua as leader of the settlement into "First Prophets" and Pinchas into "Torah" as per the events of Numeri.
*"Major" and "Minor" prophets are self-explanatory.
*Other prophets gives the rest, all of them not universally accepted as prophets: two fathers of prophets and Esther and her guardian.
Str1977 (talk) 17:57, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Reorganised

message: Why are Saul, David and  Solomon listed here? To the best of my knowledge, they weren't prophets - in fact, when God needed to give them messages, He used other prophets (Samuel in the case of Saul, Gad and Nathan in the case of David, and Ahiyah in the case of Solomon. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:30, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why are the first kings listed here? 

message: "To prevent this action, transclude the template with a parameter" -- this is not helpful, let people categorize the articles that belong in ":Category:Prophets of the Hebrew Bible" manually. People will not expect that transclusion of this template will categorize the article this way, and too many things that do not belong in the category are linked from the navbox. --dab (𒁳) 09:17, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Autocategorization

message: The heading says "Prophets in the Hebrew Bible", but the arrangement is a mishmash of Hebrew Bible and Old Testament: "major prophets" is not a Hebrew Bible category. So we should either change the heading to "Prophets in the Hebrew Bible / Old Testament" or else change the arrangement from Major prophets and Minor prophets to Later Prophets and Prophets in the Writings. StAnselm (talk) 16:58, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is actually the Old Testament