Talk:Lutheranism/Archive 3

message: Heavy vandalism in the opening and history.  Let's do something about that.
:Largely Colbert Report-related; see discussion below above. -Fsotrain09 02:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Note that there was a revert that (probably accidently) introduced earlier vandalism; it should be fine now. Peyna 02:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Requested -- and received -- and S-protect until Colbert notices other articles. --CTSWyneken(talk) 03:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: This comming from an LC-MS perspective...
Should the last sentance of Pgph. 5 under Centeral Doctrines: "Lutherans believe that the bread and wine in the Lord's Supper are the true body and blood of Christ given to Christians to eat and drink, instituted by Christ Himself." read more along the lines of Luther's Small Chatecism (i.e. Lutherans believe that the bread and wine in the Lord's Supper are "...the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ under the bread and the wine, instituted by Christ Himself for us Christians to eat and to drink."(Luther's Small Chatechism (c)1986 Concordia Publishing House)
:::::The comment you do not believe is adequate is in fact a direct quotation from the Smalcald Articles, by Martin Luther. They are part of the Lutheran Confessions, as equally authoritative as the Small Catechism. Check it out at . 
:::::::Comment poseted by unsigned IP 64.12.116.202  signature added by Jazzdude00021 03:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Generally we try not to quote as much as possible, since this is an encyclopedia.  We also need to write these things so they are understandable to someone completely unfamiliar with Christianity and/or Lutheranism. Peyna 14:24, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Lord's Supper... 

message: I'd like to suggest that we do a complete rewrite, using Encarta's Lutheranism article as a benchmark as to which details to include. Is that acceptible to all? --CTSWyneken(talk) 22:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not thrilled at the idea, and generally prefer a refactor of the existing text for whatever problems are there, but I'll do a little work on whatever's here. I'll leave it to anyone who's put a lot of time into the existing version to offer input on a complete rewrite. Brennen 22:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe this isn't that bad an idea after all. Brennen 01:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Proposal to do a complete Rewrite 

message: I am removing the external link to Pacific Lutheran seminary -- this article should either link to all Lutheran seminaries, or none.   Pastordavid 20:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It wouldn't take long to do a list of Lutheran Seminaries. Anyone game? --CTSWyneken(talk) 12:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  PLTS 

message: In the opening paragraph, the phrase "Today nearly seventy million Christians belong to Lutheran churches worldwide, with some four hundred million Protestant Christians tracing their history back to Luther's reforming work.", is not true.  Many protestant christians do not "trace their history back to Luther's reforming work".  This portion of the sentance is also unsourced.   Wordsmith12 20:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nor do many Lutherans consider themselves "Protestants." If you wish to suggest some rephrasing feel free to do so. --CTSWyneken(talk) 21:26, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I will disagree with both of you.  Most Protestants do trace their history back to Martin Luther's reforms even if it is an indirect relationship.  Since Luther did start the Protestant Reformation, Lutherans are Protestant.  However, we have already had this debate.  KitHutch 13:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

text:  No, I'm not going to debate it again, but notice I said "many" do not consider themselves Protestant, not not most or all. I think I've demonstrated that. --CTSWyneken(talk) 14:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Questionable Phrase

message: I have proposed a new WikiProject to deal with the various articles relating to Lutheranism at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Lutheranism. Any editors who would be interested in joining should indicate as much there, so that we can know if there is sufficient interest to start such a group in earnest. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 00:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed WikiProject 

message: Perhaps rather than having an external link to a book on the history of lutherans in Canada, we should have a 'further reading' section and provide a citation for the book.  Keesiewonder talk 10:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: External Links

message: I have lots of information that I can add to an article about causes of the Lutheran Reformation. This information gives reasons the Protestants disagreed with the Roman Catholic Church. However, it may appear to be from a biased point of view, but I don't believe it is. It is designed to be from the POV of a Protestant Reformer, giving their reasons for disagreeing with the Roman Catholic Church doctrines. I tried doing this edit already, and a "patroler" decided to rever it and recommend I discuss it in the discussion section. What do you think? Is it ok to have some biased information if it is necessary to give a point and educate why the Protestans wanted reform? Contact me here or on my talk page. Thanks Kosmkrmr 01:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have looked over the proposed addition.  (1) It is off topic here.  It looks at the historical causes of the Reformation, and this article is about modern Lutheranism.  (2) It is exceptionally POV.  And no, it is not necessary to have "some biased information."  The development of Lutheranism can be described in a NPOV manner, and it should be if it is to be included on wikipedia.  (3) Portions of it appear to be OR -- it kind of looks like you just inserted a paper that you wrote for school into the article.  -- Pastordavid 02:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree. The place(s) for a detailed discussion of the causes of the Reformation are, well, in the article on the Reformation and the articles that cover the people, places and events of it. Here we should strive for Summary style. --CTSWyneken(talk) 02:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Causes of the Reformation 

message: We should not have "Catholic Church" with a capital "C" here because a capitals should be used for proper nouns, not a common ones. Better would be to have this sentence read: "This attempt to reform the theology and practice of the medieval church led to the separation between a large number of Christians and the Roman Catholic tradition." You could put it this way: "This attempt to reform the theology and practice of the western Christendom led to the separation between a large number of Christians and the Roman Catholic tradition."--Drboisclair 15:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of "Catholic Church" in the introductory paragraph 

message: A new wikiproject has been formed, focusing on articles relating to Lutheranism.  Come by and check it out, and sign up to help improve articles about Lutheranism on Wikipedia.  WikiProject Lutheranism.  -- Pastordavid 20:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lutheranism Project 

message: I archived the talk page (it was up to 188K).  Please revert me if you object to this). Pastor David † (Review) 16:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archive 

message: I added the Protestantism navigation box to the page and positioned it midway between the Lutheranism and Christianity boxes to create a kind of outward progression.  Then I read the archived talk page, and it turns oit that there's been some controversy over whether Lutherans are even Protestants at all.  (I think I can hear a loud, collective groan from longtime editors of this article.)  I think, however, that the template will be non-controversial, since this article is already one of the items on the template (it is normal practice for nav boxes to appear on all the pages that they link to).  Almost ironically, the image that the template's editors have chosen is a picture of the 95 Theses.  I hope that the template will not arouse any controversy.  For the record, I am a lifelong LCMS member and did not not hear of the notion that we weren't Protestant until I attended one of the Synod's universities, where I heard the notion expressed once by a professor.  Fishal 20:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Template:Protestantism

message: The following sentence does not seem to read well:
:For this reason, Lutherans teach that salvation is possible only because of the grace of God made manifest in the birth, life, suffering, death, and resurrection, and continuing presence by the power of the Holy Spirit, of Jesus Christ.
Possible changes:
*For this reason, Lutherans teach that salvation is possible only because of the grace of God made manifest in the birth, life, suffering, death, and resurrection, and continuing presence by the power of the Holy Spirit, of Jesus Christ. 
*For this reason, Lutherans teach that salvation is possible only because of the grace of God made manifest in the birth, life, suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ; and continuing presence by the power of the Holy Spirit.  
*For this reason, Lutherans teach that salvation is possible only because of the grace of God made manifest in the birth, life, suffering, death, and resurrection; and continuing presence by the power of the Holy Spirit, of Jesus Christ. (changed comma to semicolon)
I would favor the second option. Dbiel (Talk) 01:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Or, we could break it into several shorter sentences. --CTSWyneken(talk) 12:34, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with CTS.  Fishal 14:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Central Doctrine

message: I removed the following content from the "ecumenism among Lutherans" section.  It gives basic facts and figures on the 3 US denominations, and it seems tangential to a general article on Lutheranism.  It might be useful in the Lutheranism by region article, however.
::In the United States, the largest Lutheran denomination is the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), formed in 1987 by a merger of the Lutheran Church in America, the American Lutheran Church, and the Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches (a small group of congregations that left the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod in the 1970s).  These groups were mainly distinguished from one another by history and historical connections to specific immigrant groups (German, Norwiegan, Swedish, Danish, Finnish) rather than by doctrine. The ELCA has a membership of a little over 5 million. It is a member of the Lutheran World Federation.
::The second largest is the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), a denomination which is theologically more conservative than the ELCA.  It has about 2.5 million members.  (Despite the denomination's name, LCMS congregations can be found throughout the United States, not only Missouri.) It belongs to the International Lutheran Council.
::The third largest is the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, theologically slightly more conservative than the LCMS, which has about 500,000 members. It is a member of the Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference.
::Other Lutheran organizations number a total of about 80,000 members in the U.S.
Fishal 17:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good call. We should really try to model this article on summary style.--CTSWyneken(talk) 18:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: To merge with Lutheranism by region?

message: It seems to me that most of the Bible verse references can be removed.  They are primary, not secondary, sources because they show the source from which Lutheran doctrine is derived, rather than explain the Lutheran doctrine itself.  If the article were an essay or an apoligetic work, they'd be good, but that's not what the article's supposed to be.  I can see quoting a few Scripture passages directly for a little in-depth understanding (like Ephesians 2:8).  But all those Bible passages clutters the article without adding much; the statements are still basically unsourced until they are referenced to passages in the Book of Concord or some other document that talks specifically about Lutheranism.   Fishal 21:04, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well... yes and no. If passages are the source from which Lutherans believe these doctrines come from, it's helpful for folks to know what they're thinking. I would move them all to notes, however, and maybe find some language to make that clear. --CTSWyneken 13:10, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bible verses

message: Not sure what is meant by this term, but it seems to be spelled incorrectly.
:Many Lutherans also preserve a liturgical approach to the celebration of Communion (or the Lord's Supper), emphasizing the sacrmane as the central act of Christian worship.
Dbiel (Talk) 19:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that would probably be "sacrament".  Pastordavid 19:45, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  New computer, smaller type, bifocals. 'nuff said. --Ctobola 22:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: sacrmane

message: Even the liberal theologians of the 19th Century like Schleiermacher and Kahnis believed in the survival of the soul! It was only in the 20th Century with existentialist-positivists like Bultmann that there is a denial of the survival of the self among Lutherans. If you could call such an unbeliever like Bultmann a Lutheran.--Drboisclair 01:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Denial of the Survival of the Self a 20th Century Novelty

message: Ctobola, we do not argue against the "resurrection-centrist" position that you are advocating. This is the biblical and Lutheran position; however, holding such a position does not negate other scriptural positions. Yes, we hold to the resurrection of the dead as the hope of the future. That being said any unbiased reading of the New Testament sheds further light on the "intermediate state." I would have to say that I would shy away from the phrase "immortality of the soul" because that phrase has a lot of philosophical baggage. As you can see from the quotations from Schmid, who cites Gerhard, Gerhard demonstrates what he calls the immortality of the soul from Scripture. Pieper criticizes Gerhard for loading the intermediate state with things that are only true of the blessed dead after the Last Day; however, Pieper as well as all Lutheran theologians up to the 20th Century held to an "intermediate state" for the self or the soul. It can be maintained that the resurrection of the dead is the center piece of Lutheran eschatology, but that does not rule out other clear teachings of the scriptures. Look at the passages cited, they are clear and do not need to be exegeted. The hallmark of the Reformation is the perspicuity of the scriptures, that they are clear and that the common human being can understand them.--Drboisclair 05:48, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Belief in the Biblical Doctrine of the Survival of the Self Does not negate the resurrection-centrist Position 

message: I think that the centrality of the doctrine of the Resurrection of the Body needs to be stated in the Central Doctrines, so I have taken the liberty of modifying the statement, which may have given undue weight to the "intermediate state" as it stood. Ctobola is right that this is the central point of Lutheran eschatology, but he is not right to say that among Lutherans that it rules out an intermediate state of the human self.--Drboisclair 06:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change made to point out the centrality of the Resurrection of the Body 

message: Since Lutheranism, thoughout history, is defined in terms of it's confession of faith, the doctrine section should be listed first. Lutheranism is doctrine. Lutheranism has a history, but it is a doctrine none-the-less. Good work, Dr., on repairing and adding more citations. I support your work against spurious editing.--Epiphyllumlover 02:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doctrine section should be the first section