Talk:Role-playing video game/Archive 4

message: I'd like to address a shortcoming of this article which has little to do with proposed merger or failure to merge with other articles on RPGs. I guess I can best explain starting with the section of "Character Development"
 Experience system (also known as the "level-based" system) the training system 
 (also known as the "skill-based" system) and the skill-point system (also known as "level-free" system)
This is an interesting, (but uncited!) explanation of a player's perspective. It would be very helpful in describing a programmer's view.  I imagine there are certain variables programmed relating to "skills", maybe sometimes used to influences percentages, like adding (or subtracting) from die rolls.(?) Maybe these "Skills" are expressed as variables that work in other ways to influence game play?  
For anyone who wants to preserve the separation between video games and pencil and paper RPGs, I think it would be essential to have some idea of what happens "under the hood."   Rolling dice to come up with stats and then modifying these stats is pretty obvious and intuitive-- How does this work in video games? How do randomly generated numbers factor into video game software gameplay? The "three different systems" theory is clever, but I know there are mathematics operating underneath that could be addressed in a basic overview-- there are references to "game engines", but I think some really basic ideas can be presented before even approaching such advanced topics. So any game developers or aspiring game developers interested in helping out?  Cuvtixo (talk) 01:57, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Software Variables and "Three different systems" 

message: I'm sorry, but the subject picture made me laugh out loud. It's so cluttered with the inclusion of dice, swords, and the gaming controller, it looks kind of poor. This is the only place I've seen that symbol. I think just the dice with the controller would do, and maybe a better placement of the dice. Voxamimae (talk) 20:45, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You have a point, but there shouldn't be any dice. Games that implement dice on video game consoles are Monopoly, on XBLA. The controller and the sword work well together, that is my opinion. Remember, not only is the picture cluttered, but the page is cluttered as well. (see my new section, 'Literally, role playing') 最後の最初のチップを提供する (talk) 22:52, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  There's some talk here about fiddling with the images in these templates. It seems there's some consensus to move away from these kinds of icons, but not necessarily in the direction you guys are talking about. Randomran (talk) 23:04, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The subject picture? 

message: OK, I'm a bit curious as to why dungeon crawl is not given as a subgenre.  It is a common theme, and has characteristics that separate it from other genres.  I'd argue that the roguelike subgenre is actually a sub-subgenre of a dungeon crawl.
Wizardry, Bard's Tale, even Madou Monogatari are examples of this sub-genre. Dawynn (talk) 17:48, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The Icewind Dale series is another example. I'm indifferent on calling it a subgenre. You could also argue that it is a setting, not a subgenre. I'm sure there are sources out there that call it a subgenre though. SharkD  Talk  04:37, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dungeon Crawl 

message: Similar to my previous query.  Have the monster collecting games earned themselves a sub-genre of their own?  I believe this was started by the whole Pokémon franchise, but DQ Monsters plays in this realm now, as may a few other games.  If these are not their own sub-genre, where would they best be classified?
I realize that these kind of games are typically found on console systems, usually handheld consoles.  But I don't really see them as the same sub-genre as "Console RPG", since that term typically implies JRPG / Eastern RPG (whatever you want to call it) -- more along the lines of Final Fantasy / Dragon Quest and their clones.
Dawynn (talk) 13:00, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The idea seems to be basically the same as collectible card games, a recognized genre (or type?) of non-video game, except that they've done away with the actual, physical cards. SharkD  Talk  04:41, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

text: The genre has its roots in Megami Tensei which is a decade older than Pokemon and collectible card games. Crmartell (talk) 02:24, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monster Collection 

message: I removed the following statement because it is a little vague and the date on this is uncertain.
: Although, in some recent games, the character can "level up" more specific stats by merely performing actions that relate to them.
Perhaps somebody could clarify the meaning and give an example? Thanks.—RJH (talk) 22:05, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: A recent(-ish) example is Earth & Beyond, where you could level up three stats independently: Exploration, Trade, and Combat. An earlier example is Jagged Alliance 2 (and maybe the first game in the series) where all skill levels (Marksmanship, Agility, Strength, etc.) were raised by character actions. I don't think it's a new thing. I'm sure the idea dates back many years — at least in wargaming if not in video games. SharkD  Talk  04:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Levelling up statement 

message: Hey, there's another article, called Computer role-playing game. Isn't that a mistake? Both articles should be unified in a single unique article, don't you think so? Kintaro-san (talk) 12:19, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: At the moment, this is the parent article for both Computer role-playing game and Console role-playing game.  However, some people think that those articles should be merged, in which case this is likely to become the only article on the topic.  Percy Snoodle (talk) 15:24, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I am planning to merge those once things settle down on RL on my end and i get some articles i'm working on improved.陣内Jinnai 00:00, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Little problem 

message: I don't have much experience editing in Wikipedia (especially article merges) so my apologies if this is started incorrectly.  I've taken the Prominent Designers section of the Computer role-playing game article and placed the same here as a step to having them be a single article.  Its just a small step but I'll try to make some others soon.  Please contribute those prominent designers that you know of from any sort of (non-MMO) computer/console/whatever RPG game.Caidh (talk) 02:47, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, the Computer role-playing game article is abysmally lacking in citations, so it's not clear that merging that article into Role-playing video game will improve matters. I think that bringing the latter article up to GA quality would be a nice achievement.—RJH (talk) 18:47, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it needs to be merged simply redirected. It cannot stay as it is. I'd say look over what source #2 says and merge any of that info. The rest can be ignored.陣内Jinnai 06:10, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Talk:Computer role-playing game.陣内Jinnai 23:30, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, thanks. SharkD  Talk  04:48, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Progress towards merging with [[Computer role-playing game]] 

message: Here's an article about the "death" of JRPGs. SharkD  Talk  16:58, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese role-playing games 

message: I finished merging relevant info. There were 3 sites I did not use:
* Sherrin English of NZGamer - as far as I can tell it does not meet our criteria for a SPS and I cannot verify that it would be a credible site for the industry for reviews like IGN.
* Andrew Vestal of Gamespot - the site previous article appeared to be using info on specific games as synthesis which is the same problem computer & console rpg articles had (and possibly this very article). There are only 3 pages that can be used from that site: Introduction, The First Console RPG and Future of RPGs. None of those pertain to cultural differences save a trivial mention that Dragon Quest was the catalyist for JRPGs, which I included.
* Patrick Joynt of 1UP - While I am not discrediting 1UP or Patrick Joynt's general expertise in video gaming, it has been shown, and can be shown again, that his understanding of role-playing video games is heavily screwed by systemic bias and many of his claims there are based largely on this premise which, again, has been shown to be faulty. As such I have to say that at least with regard to the differences in classification between role-playing video games he cannot be considered to be an expert.陣内Jinnai 03:52, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks pretty good. One question though: for #2 you say the site was using synthesis to formulate its views. Why is it not OK for a source to do synthesis? I thought the restriction on doing so was just meant for Wikipedians. SharkD  Talk  09:10, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The site doesn't use synthesis; the article used synthesis based on the site. Ie it used some examples of specific games to formulate the premise that because game X does this and it is an important example, then most games (of that era and culture) must also do X although not quite in those words.陣内Jinnai 03:57, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Gotcha. SharkD  Talk  04:55, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cultural differences merge 

message: I deleted the cultural differences section due to extreme bias in the favor of WRPGs.  There are a ton of biased opinions on the web and sourcing them is not okay, mmkay?
69.253.43.211 (talk) 23:39, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *I disagree.  If it meets WP:V with reliable sources that reflect the basic notions of the genres, then the section should stay.  You can introduce competing statements to balance the section if there are reliable sources that contradict the notion of cultural differences. —Ost (talk) 19:51, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cultural Differences 

message: I realize the "Cultural differences" section may be troublesome to get right, but a short list of examples of games fitting each category, WRPGs and JRPGs, is very much needed to clear up doubts.
Currently, the article gives very generic descriptions, but no examples:
:"In contrast, most WRPGs have more non-linear exploration and story development as well as greater control of the player characters' development, both of which come at the price of more generic dialogue and less focus on essential gameplay, specifically the battle system." (which games?)
:"Another difference prominent in JRPGs is kawaisa. While WRPGs tend to be more serious and gritty in tone, JRPGs tend to feature cute (and even comic-relief type) characters often juxtaposed (or clashing) with more mature themes and situations. Finally, the characters are usually depicted in anime-style in JRPGs." (examples of each, please!)
---189.250.207.203 (talk) 01:48, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If any of those are listed by the sources as such they can be, otherwise as it is a contriversial area it would be considered WP:OR. I think the few that are mentioned are linked in the prose.陣内Jinnai 02:56, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cultural differences: examples please? 

message: Might want to mention "sports RPGs" where you role-play a team owner/manager and do things like hire/fire players based on their statistics and manage team assets, but leave the "playing" of the games themselves to the AI. I know the demographic/target audience isn't exactly the same. A good example is the Football Manager series. They're mentioned briefly in Sports game#Sports RPG. SharkD  Talk  22:52, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Those aren't RPGs. Those are business simulation games.陣内Jinnai 01:57, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe... but the importance placed on individual player stats (not to mention stat development) is pretty significant. SharkD  Talk  00:36, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: As those games have traditionally been cited as simulation games, you'd have to find a few independent RSes to claim those type of games are Sports RPGs陣内Jinnai 04:42, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's tough to categorize some games. But I think you need more than stats to be an RPG. You probably need combat and quests too. Sports management probably borrow more from business games like drug wars than from D&D. Shooterwalker (talk) 19:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I would think that sports games pre-date Drug Wars by a good deal. Anyway, there's quite a few sources which make use of the term, as can be seen by following the links I provided above. SharkD  Talk  06:22, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright so the term is used. I'll accept that. Now just because its used doesn't mean its not simply a marketing tag or had a clearly defined description of what it is. Saying its and "RPG centered around sports" isn't going to cut it especially as many of those use business simulation mechanics which does have a clear definition. If you don't have a clear definition by at least one, and preferably more than one RS (especially if its not an academic level source) then it shouldn't be in. Console and computer RPGs were merged because of the inability to nail down a clear definition. The reason I think more sources would be warranted if it isn't an academic level one is simple: anyone can come up with a definition after something is marketed as such and it doesn't necessarily reflect what many would consider an actual sub-genre of RPG.陣内Jinnai 17:35, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sports RPGs 

message: User:Jinnai has raised some complaints regarding the sourcing of the "Cultural split" section of History of role-playing video games. Here's the article in its current state, and I don't see any significant issues with it, other than those parts already marked with  tags:
 
After the success of console role-playing games such as Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, the role-playing genre eventually diverged into two distinct sub-genres, Western role-playing games and Japanese role-playing games, due to cultural differences. Though sharing fundamental premises, Western games also tend to feature darker graphics, older characters, and focus more on roaming freedom and realism; whereas Eastern games tend to feature brighter graphics, younger characters, and focus more on scripted linear storylines and suspension of disbelief.http://nzgamer.com/ps2/features/552/japanese-and-western-rpgs-the-differences.htmlhttp://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=0&cId=3148996 Traditionally, console RPGs also feature turn-based battles, though a number of series feature real-time combat (such as Square Enix's Mana series and Namco's Tales series).
Because the vast majority of console RPGs originate in Eastern Asia, particularly Japan, they are often referred to as Japanese role-playing games or JRPGs. There are also non-Japanese console role-playing games in existence, however, as well as Japanese RPGs for personal computers; and in more recent years, Western RPGs have consistently been released on consoles such as the Xbox and Xbox 360. However, these systems have not shown as much market dominance in Japan,http://scrawlfx.com/2010/08/niitsuma-xbox-360s-low-japanese-sales-a-cultural-thing and only a few Western RPG titles have been localized to Japanese for them. Further, it is not uncommon for Western RPGs to be looked upon with disdain in Japan, where they have sometimes derogatorily been labeled "crap games" by players;http://www.1up.com/news/square-enix-devs-discuss-secret and The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion is the only Western RPG to have been awarded a near-perfect score by Japanese gaming magazine Famitsu.
SharkD  Talk  08:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourcing disagreement 

message: The article references some source by the name "Natt", but I see no reference with that name in the footnotes. Which source is this referring to? It must have gotten broken somehow in the intervening months since it was added. SharkD  Talk  04:54, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That's because its 2 different people giving 2 distinct opinions from the same source. Core doesn't have a way to deal with this. Listing the same source twice would be removed and continually adding "Smith says..." and then "Jones says..." "...but Smith says..." i thought would be in the way of clear and consise prose.陣内Jinnai 05:54, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broken reference 

message: I'd like to configure automated MiszaBot archival for this talk page, using the same settings as at Talk:Talker.  Any objections or other thoughts? —chaos5023 (talk) 23:00, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a plan.陣内Jinnai 03:00, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Auto-archiving is now set up. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 01:17, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archival