Talk:Katharina von Bora

message: Consult: F.G. Hofmann (Leipzig, 1845);  A. Stein, a pseudonym for H. Nietschmann,  (Halle, 1879);  A. Thoma (Berlin, 1900).  
See: Kroken, Katharina von Bora (Leipzig, 1906).  
70.17.166.121 16:37, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Shouldn't this article be called Katharina Luther as that was her name when she died?  Emperor001 17:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If no one responds to this comment in a few days, I will move this document to Katharina Luther.  Emperor001 23:07, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Move

message: The second image shows a long ribbon tied around her mouth, and hanging down at her side.  Is that a sort of scarf?  It looks quite odd.  If anyone knows what that is and why it's there, perhaps it could be explained briefly in the caption. --Reuben (talk) 01:10, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Still no explanation of this cryptic image. Can anyone explain it, please? Awien (talk) 17:33, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: What's going on in the image?

message: :Towards the end of their life together, they were walking one evening in their garden. Katharina pointed out the beautiful evening sky. "See the lovely evening stars!" she exclaimed. "How they shine on us!" "Yes, they shine and twinkle gloriously," responded Martin, "But not for us". Then he added softly, "We abandoned our vows". "Shall we, then, return to our convents?" asked Katharina. Luther responded only, "It is too late".
This text seems very doubtful and I suggest it is from some (old or new) piece of anti-Lutheran propaganda. In the "Table Talk", the record of many of his conversations during his last years, Luther is displayed as often denouncing "monkery" as the worst of abominations and his own time in the convent as the most reprehensible time of his life. -- 85.177.62.204 (talk) 01:27, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doubtful paragraph on Luther rueing his decision to stop being a monk 

message: Shouldn't some criticism of her from the point of view of the Catholic Church be mentioned? Steve Dufour (talk) 19:04, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: No controversy?

message: Only recently, a new scientific essay "About the history of the von Bora 
family and some manors in the Saxon districts Borna and Pegau" (original 
title: "Zur Geschichte der Familie v. Bora und einiger Güter in den 
sächsischen Ämtern Borna und Pegau") was published in the "Genealogie" 
journal (2010, *4*, pp. 289-307). This paper follows up other essays, 
dealing with the same range of topics, which were published in 2005 and 
2006.
In the latest essay, the author initially introduces the geographic and 
political environment during Reformation times of Katharina von Bora's 
presumed birthplace. Then he presents a legal record from the year 1531 
which gives evidence of a law suit between the brothers von Bora about 
an inherited property in Kieritzsch, district of Borna. Before, there 
had not been taken any notice of this record. Yet, it presents some new 
clues about Katharina's paternal relatives.
In the second part, the author suggests an alternative view to the 
traditional ideas regarding the Reformer's wife's maternal kinship. 
These considerations take the numerous contradictions from previous 
papers in account that were pointed out by the latest scientific 
literature. Especially the legend about a stepmother is rejected. In 
conclusion, it is shown that the family background from Katharina von 
Bora's mother has to be regarded as rather unresearched.
The latest newspaper magazine with a recently updated list of family 
lines can be obtained under:
http://www.genealogie-zeitschriften.de/53065796cc0d4f519/53065799910dc3207/5306579e540abf80d.html
Older essays may be viewed under:
http://www.von-bora.de/  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.150.210.205 (talk) 16:38, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  New evidence of her origin 

message: The seemingly ineradicable legend of impoverishment is nothing but a 
relict from the anti-Lutheran propaganda. It was already questioned by 
serious authors in 1752 (Walch, C.W.F., Halle 1752, "The true history of 
the blessed Lady Catharina von Bora", p. 20: "The first question is, 
whether Catharina von Bora's parents were poor or wealthy? The question 
as such is irrelevant. Therefore, we neither want to confirm nor negate 
it. However, we cannot approve the faulty evidence of Engelhard [an 
earlier author]." - original title: "Wahrhaftige Geschichte der seligen 
Frau Catharina von Bora"; original citation: "Die erste Frage ist, ob 
die Eltern der Catharina von Bora arm oder vermögend gewesen? Sie ist an 
sich gleichgültig. Wir wollen sie daher weder bejahen noch verneinen, 
aber den fehlerhaften Beweis des Engelhard [eines früheren Autoren] 
können wir nicht
anerkennen."). In 1843 it was announced that the alleged poverty of her 
family "cannot be proven by any credible information" (Beste, W., Halle 
1843, "The history of Catharina von Bora" - original title: "Die 
Geschichte Catharina's von Bora"; p. 13; there, also the French original 
source of the poverty-statement can be found.)
In the newly rediscovered record from 1531, it can be read that the 
father of the von Bora siblings made "a hundred gulden" available to his 
brother, before the year 1521 ("Genealogie", 2010, p. 304). 
Unfortunately, the father is not mentioned by name. Nonetheless, this 
donation sustains the doubts about a poverty-legend. The legend - as 
touching as it might appear - just like many other ones about historic 
events during the Reformation period, should not be spread any further.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.150.210.205 (talk) 16:41, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  No "daughter of an impoverished nobleman" 

message: I did a thorough search of the citation for this quote and could not find anything of substance. 
Source:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/luther/tabletalk.pdf
Lusanders (talk) 06:11, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  More than one wife comment 

message: Could someone *please* rewrite this to put it in proper English? There are sections so badly written that I don't even know what the article is trying to say. 24.244.29.169 (talk) 18:58, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Dreadful English

message: See this diff.
The use of "himself", prior to my change, was ungrammatical, so I fixed it, giving it the meaning I assume it was intended to have.  But I suppose it's also at least possible that the "or" was an interloper, and the sentence should have read that she would be willing to marry only Luther himself.
So if anyone can check this, and find out whether she was willing to marry von Amsdorf, that would be great.  (I see there's no inline cite, by the way, so I don't know exactly where you'd start looking, but presumably there are people here who do know.) --Trovatore (talk) 19:59, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fact check requested 

message: There are several paragraphs that do not have any citations at all. Specifically, in the following section:
* Life as a nun (2 paras)
* Marriage to Luther (1 para)
* After Luther's death (4 paras)
* Commemoration
Thanks. —howcheng  {chat} 00:22, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  this article needs more references 

message: The source used does not use the term "landed gentry". The lower ranks in the German nobility are called Niederer Adel i.e. petty nobility.Doctoral historian (talk) 20:12, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Landed gentry is a UK specific term  

message: Paul von Hindenburg's biography does not say this in pages 1-19 as is given in the reference, nor could I find a reliable source for the claim that the Counts zu Eulenburg, or the Princes zu Eulenburg and Hertefeld descend from Luther and Von Bora. The other reference, Church Schism & Corruption by Achim Maseko is very unprofessionally composed and lacks a bibliography, and its author's credentials can't be verified. Especially strange is that the book's only printer is a paid on-demand publisher. 
I have found this claim on various .com and .net websites but these websites have been shown to often get their information FROM Wikipedia. If this information can't be traced to a more reliable source, then it should be removed.
 Isz Chepewéssin (talk) 03:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paul von Hindenburg & Other Descendents?