Talk:Messianic Judaism/Archive 6

message: I have updated the sources of the current version, and looking at the originals, the current version does seem accurate to the sources quoted (at leastthe first paragraoph - it will take a while to try and verify each claim in each paragraph), although I have not been able to get my hands on the Carol Harris-Shapiro book yet. -- Avi 21:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Great, and I was just about to update the Rausch citation. -- Avi 23:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection 

message: It would list in at least one place: Category:Religious faiths, traditions, and movements. 
A Category:Messianic Community could list associations such as the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC), Messianic Israel Alliance, and Messianic Jewish Alliance of America. Messianic Jewish or Messianic Judaism topics and the Category:Messianic Jews can go into it.
The reason why I propose this is that some groups appear not to particularly refer themselves to being "Messianic Jewish" or use the word Messianic Judaism. There are Messianic groups known as Nazarene Yisraelites, Nazarene Judaism, and Messianic Israel. One website even states (as quoted): ""Messianic Israel Alliance" was chosen to be more inclusive to non-Jews than a Messianic Jewish title."
I find the term 'Messianic community' used occasionally on Messianic web sites. The Complete Jewish Bible, by David H. Stern uses the words 'Messianic community' in place 'church'.
Further thought would even consider a category that both Messianic and Christianity could funnel down to such as Category:Body of Messiah.
CowboyWisdom 21:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * "Messianic Judaism" itself could be a category used to develop and clarify the entirety of articles that it encompasses. inigmatus 05:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * I, too, support the tree idea.  Even within my MJAA congregation, there are congregants who have come out of the Orthodox, Reformed, and Conservative sects of Judaism (both Sephardic and Ashkenazic); congregants who came to us out of Catholic, SDA, CRC, RCA, Methodist, COGIC, and Pentecostal (AG) backgrounds.  We have Jewish, Caucasian, African-American, Hispanic, and Asian ethnicities represented in our Body.  With that diverse a mix, we don't even have consensus on every doctrine in a standard 120 congregant MJAA Body.  Many of the less universally-held doctrines should be relegated to their own entries branching off the main one, doctrines such as Semitic primacy of the B'rit Chadashah (NT), for example.  Just a few thoughts from the MJAA camp.  :-)  Brachot l'cha (blessings to you) -SHLAMA 09:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category tree proposal: Category:Messianic Community 

message: Hi.  I'm the mediator from the medcab who agreed to take the Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-06-13 Messianic Judaism.  Before we begin I'd like to establish whether people want to mediate this issue.  Its a little vague to me reading the case file  whether there was agreement to mediate or not.
OK in terms of bias there is a lot to object to on both sides (so hopefully you all see this as balancing out, if not now is the time to object!).    I'm a jewish atheist.  I am very familiar with christian doctrine and teachings, and generally handle religion cases for mediation cabal.  I know the history of the messianic movement from the 1880s forward.   So first off if you want to be in the mediation please put a "yes" by your name, if not a "no".    If I you want to add yourself please do.  If you would like mediation but don't want me as mediator please indicate "reject" next to your name.    jbolden1517Talk 02:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm here to resolve content issues.  If you are uninterested in the subject of the article that's fine.  If you are interested then there is an underlying content dispute which it appears that Cowboy wants mediated.  Obviously medcab doesn't have authority to address admin abuse so if that's cowboy's claim I'll explain, relevant policy and if he still wants to go ahead where to file and I'm done.  Do you object to mediation strictly on the content issue if that is the root issue?  jbolden1517Talk 02:44, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I second that motion, I think that inigmatus's version is much fairer and NPOV than any version we have had here. -- Avi 14:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: First, I'm a guy, and second, my congregation can be found by visiting www.graftedin.com. I have been a part of Messianic leaning,  Assembly of God, Charismatic leaning, Law free, and now Torah observant congregations for over 12 years. In an effort to keep NPOV, the goal is to not make it apparent what I believe when I write an article. If I have succeeded in doing so, as you seem to have verified for me, then I have succeeded. I wish to confirm the motion to unlock the original article, and publish my revision as the new article. If you would like to explain to me what is "mainstream Messianic Judaism" please feel free to input your facts in the appropriate sections. For now, I think there are Jews that would also object that I'm too NPOV in favor of Messianic Judaism. Kaplah! (thats Klingon for success)  inigmatus 16:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Btw, I should also like to ask, what is not true about the definition for Messianic believer? In my revision I write: "In Messianic Judaism, a Messianic believer is usually a self-appointed term, and almost always describes someone who has accepted the essential salvific doctrines of Christianity, but also adopts in part or in full a Jewish expression of that faith." If that isn't a definition for mainstream Messianic Judaism, then I don't know what is. Any other Messianics concurr with me on this? inigmatus 16:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mediator

message: As I posted on the mediation page, I am not interested in this mediation as there is nothing to mediate since all I did was protect the page due to an edit war that was taking place between multiple users. Protection of a page is not an endorsment of the current page version. Other than the locking of the page I have not been involved in the talk page for a while so I don't know where the intimidation comes in. There is no policy that says that a member of one religion cannot edit or protect the page describing another religion. Furthermore since Mediation does not ban people from article it seems like the user that submitted this is not familiar with the proccess of mediation and is using this as a way to push his agenda. If there is a valid complaint against me feel free to open a new case and we can work it out but with the way it is written now, I am not interested. I would advise that whomever submitted this reread the relevant policy articles. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 02:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm here to resolve content issues.  If you are uninterested in the subject of the article that's fine.  If you are interested then there is an underlying content dispute which it appears that Cowboy wants mediated.  Obviously medcab doesn't have authority to address admin abuse so if that's cowboy's claim I'll explain, relevant policy and if he still wants to go ahead where to file and I'm done.  Do you object to mediation strictly on the content issue if that is the root issue?  jbolden1517Talk 02:44, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: PichasC's comment

message: My involvement in this is to get the article lock removed. I have invested considerable time redesigning the article User:Inigmatus/Messianic Judaism revision to address the various POVs that obviously have valid input in this article. In all sincerety, my goal is featured page status for the whole of pages included within a future "Messianic Judaism" category. For the sake of time, I submit my revision now as a possible draft for replacing the current article. Where it goes from there, is up to the wikiverse. I just think this article could benefit from a complete revamp and redesign, and I offer my work as one possibility. I'll be adding references throughout the week, but before I got too far into it, I figured it would be best to simply have everyone vote on it now before I wasted my time doing so. So, can we get a vote now to start the article completely over with my revision? I intend to move more original article content over to it, but again you see, I want to know if at least it will worth the effort to keep going in this direction. Thoughts? inigmatus 03:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I second that motion, I think that inigmatus's version is much fairer and NPOV than any version we have had here. -- Avi 14:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: First, I'm a guy, and second, my congregation can be found by visiting www.graftedin.com. I have been a part of Messianic leaning,  Assembly of God, Charismatic leaning, Law free, and now Torah observant congregations for over 12 years. In an effort to keep NPOV, the goal is to not make it apparent what I believe when I write an article. If I have succeeded in doing so, as you seem to have verified for me, then I have succeeded. I wish to confirm the motion to unlock the original article, and publish my revision as the new article. If you would like to explain to me what is "mainstream Messianic Judaism" please feel free to input your facts in the appropriate sections. For now, I think there are Jews that would also object that I'm too NPOV in favor of Messianic Judaism. Kaplah! (thats Klingon for success)  inigmatus 16:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Btw, I should also like to ask, what is not true about the definition for Messianic believer? In my revision I write: "In Messianic Judaism, a Messianic believer is usually a self-appointed term, and almost always describes someone who has accepted the essential salvific doctrines of Christianity, but also adopts in part or in full a Jewish expression of that faith." If that isn't a definition for mainstream Messianic Judaism, then I don't know what is. Any other Messianics concurr with me on this? inigmatus 16:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page Revision Mediation

message: I believe this page -- with all its controversies -- deserves a category. I propose :Category:Messianic Judaism, which, in turn, belongs under :Category:Abrahamic religions. Agreed? --The Editrix 22:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The category of Messianic Judaism can go beneath :Category:Christianity. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 22:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If it goes under Christianity, then the category of Messianic Judaism should also go under Judaism. I I concurr with Editrix that it instead should start under Abrahamic religions and go from there until its status is accepted by both Category Christian and Category Judaism together. inigmatus 02:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Messianic Judiasm is, in fact, a new religious movement. It is no more a subcategory of Judaism or Christianity than Bahá'í is a subcategory of Islam, Islam is a subcategory of Christianity, or Christianity is a sub-category of Judaism. They share roots, but have entirely different faith systems. Shucky darn. I've just entered an edit war! --The Editrix 07:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text:  Agreed.  Messianic judaism,  has severed all ties with Christian identity.  so it is not a subset of  Chritianity. WHether they are  a subset of  Judaism is a matter of greater contoversy, they self identify as Judaism, as does rescuntructionist judaism reform Judaism anfd conservative Judaism.  But like those movements they have rejected the authority of the Inbroken rabinic tradition.  My personal opinion is that NONE of them is a subset of Judaism, and that ONLY Orthodox sects (such as the Haredi, the Hasidim etc),. qulify as Judaism Lorem 03:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed category addition 

message: Jayjg took the time to start making edits to Inigmatus's version.  I made some comments.  User talk:Inigmatus/Messianic Judaism revision.  Everyone on the MJ indicated an interest in mediation.   That means you actually have to try and create something along with Jayjg and PinchasC...  How does starting new categories get you any closer to stopping the edit wars on the article page? jbolden1517Talk 02:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm genuinely uninterested in the edit war y'all have gotten yourselves into. My interest is strictly in rounding out the Abrahamic Religions category. I've got no dog in this fight, so won't be getting involved. The Editrix 07:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes because after all there was no way that considering messianic judaism as a separate religion at the category level could at all be connected to the "edit war" they are having.  I'm sure the people objecting in article space to this idea aren't going to have any problem with it in becoming a permanent part of template space.  jbolden1517Talk 07:32, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: replies

message: There have been various Messianic Jewish movements over history centered on various claimed Messiahs including Shabbatai Tzvi, Jacob Frank, and most recently Lubavitcher Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson. Why all the focus on what (from a Jewish point of view) is only one of the various messianic Jewish movements? --Shirahadasha 05:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: From an anthropological & etymological point of view, the answer to your question is simple: No other movement has laid claim to the title "Messianic Judaism." If they wish to self-define as Messianic Jews, they're in the game. If not, the question is moot. --The Editrix 07:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Other Messianic Jewish Movements

message: For as long as the artice is lock in it's present for It needs to have the totally disputed tage, there is no question that , in its current form,  it is totally disputed  Lorem 03:48, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then use the  template. However, before the  is added to the page, it may be prudent to show a consensus, since edits to locked pages are supposed to be uncommon. -- Avi 04:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you all want to put said tag on this article, I'm for it. Rivka 21:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wrong_version --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 03:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Totally disputed tag