Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography/Organized crime task force/question

message: Hi. I'd to join your project in formation. I spent a summer interning at a law firm involved in organized crime work, and subsequently performed some academic work on the subject and have read very widely. This is a very interesting project and I think I can make a contribution.
Incidentally, the article on the National Crime Syndicate troubles me somewhat. I have attempted to improve it but it requires work and I wonder whether it should exist at all. There are no citations, but it appears to be based on old theories of organized crime, advanced by Hank Messick and a few others, that are unsubstantiated and based largely on conjecture. Messick's work on Lansky has been largely discredited as you know.
While it is certainly true that in the 1920s-1940s there were large non-Italian crime groups that worked together, the theory that there was a formal organization, along the lines of the Mafia Commission which of course was very much a reality, seems to be largely unproven.--Mantanmoreland 15:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are certainly more then welcome to join, and certainly much of Wikipedia's organized crime desperatly needs an overhall and reorganization (especially with sources from experts such as Henry Asbury and Jay Robert Nash being called into question). The National Crime Syndicate would indeed make an excellent candidate for a future collaberation, however I don't have much information beyond my own sources (primarily Asbury/nash). There should of course be a distinction between the Mafia Ruling Commission connected to New York's Five Families. MadMax 06:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and I think a lot of Hank Messick's work has also been called into question, particularly by the Lacey book. On the other hand, there's no question that top mob bosses outside the Mafia worked closely with non-Mafia bosses, and also met regulatrly such as at a big conclave in Atlantic City. Joe Valachi said that Salvatore Maranzano's killers were some gunmen from Meyer Lansky. But I'd like to see some better sourcing for the concept of a "National Crime Syndicate."--Mantanmoreland 12:40, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: *Unfortunatly I haven't had a chance to read them as yet. The closest I can get is whatever I'm able to get ahold of at the local library. Nice job on the Cornelius Willemse article, by the way ! I'll try to see if I can dig up any references to the National Crime Syndicate, although I have my doubts if the FBI was ever focused on anything else outside the New York Five Families. I'd love to get the opinions of modern day authors such as Allen May, Jerry Capeci, Thomas Hunt, etc. on the subject. MadMax 20:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! I should do an article for each of the Willemse books. Yes, it would be interesting to get the view of the people you mention, but keep in mind that this is a historical issue. I doubt they would be authoritative if they hadn't gone into old files. One thing you can do is look at FBI files on various hoods available at the online reading room. They have Zwillman, for example, and others. Problem is getting 'em in WP, given WP:NOR, even if anything interesting is in 'em.--Mantanmoreland 21:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *That would be of an invaluble help. Even dates of birth and/or death would be extremly helpful. I'll see if there are any available here. There are some newspapers, mostly the New York Times, going back to the early 1900's. It certainly seems like a starting point for a reliable reference. MadMax 20:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I'd like to join your effort/National Crime Syndicate article 

message: An issue regarding the nessessity of alphabetising lists has been brought up on Talk:List of Irish-American mobsters. It's been proposed the section headers be deleted, given the relatively small size of the list, or reformat the list altogether. Should this be proposed for the other lists ? MadMax 19:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List reorganization

message: Max, you may want to take a look at the Louis Buchalter article, which is a real mess. First of all it is totally unsourced. I just put a tag on that. Secondly it has statements in it that are dubious at best, such as saying that his birth name was "Buckhouse," which is not true I do believe, and that he was a member of the "Amboy Dukes" street gang, ditto.
The date of birth was contradicted by his FBI file, which is online, so I corrected it. However, I have held off on fixing other stuff before determining exactly where all that stuff came from. Though I have done a fair amount of reading on Buchalter in the past, the only source material that I have at present are those FBI files, which of course are problematic under WP:NOR.
Lepke was one of the most important crime figues of the century and it is a shame that this article, with all its statements of questionable accuracy, is being promulgated and distributed on the net. I really hope some editors with expertise on this, such as yourself, could take a look. Meanwhile I'll try digging out some source materials and also stick some "citation needed" tags on the thing.--Mantanmoreland 15:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I saw. Outstanding! I may go back and edit out some of the more egregious unsourced apocryphal stuff. --Mantanmoreland 20:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Louis Buchalter 

message: As I noted previously, this article was a complete mess. It was completely unsourced, and above all it was inaccurate. It confused the NCS -- which was a supposed multi-ethnic crime combine in the 1930s-1940s -- with the Mafia itself. Thus there were confusing references to the Mafia Commission, which was within the Mafia and had no jurisidiction over non-Italian gangsters like Dutch Schultz etc. 
AFter hesitating for some weeks I decided to just weigh in and remove the unsourced, unverifiable material and the clearly erroneous Mafia references. After cutting, there wasn't left with much. However, I think a smaller, essentially accurate article is better than a lengthy, totally erroneous one. In searching the Net I found that the erroneous article had been picked up by answers.com and google and spread all over the net! 
Anyway, Max, if you or anyone has some verified sources that can be cited and footnoted, pls weigh in. I'm going to search through my own stuff. The FBI file on Lepke, incidentally, makes no reference to the NCS.--Mantanmoreland 14:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: An anonymous editor keeps adding unsourced material conflating the NCS with the internal Mafia war of 1930. Would appreciate a third set of eyes.--Mantanmoreland 16:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * I'll take a look at it right away. Also here are some sources I've been able to dig up on the NCS, although there doesn't seem to be any specific artcle relating to organized crime. MadMax 17:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[National Crime Syndicate]] 

message: *I've recently noticed the creation of multiple subjects dealing with the Mafia. Should there be a proposal to merge these pages or, at the very least, create some sort of distinction between the articles ? MadMax 22:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *I've notice a similar problem with Philadelphia cosa nostra articles. We have mentioned in various articles - Philadelphia crime family, Bruno crime family, and others to name what I believe must be the same family, none of which actually have a designated page. Not such a large problem as the Mafia/Cosa Nostra/Italian organized crime thing but still something to be done eventually. Alexbonaro 05:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *As you know there is serious duplication between Mafia and Cosa Nostra. The former is used interchangeably in the media to refer to US and Sicilian based gangsters, while the latter is only for the US. This needs to be reconciled. It is going to be a lot of work. Then there is the problem of poor sourcing and factual errors in many of the articles. It is a persistent problem in articles with references to the so-called National Crime Syndicate, whose very existence is questionable. I fixed the problem in the NCS article but even so, the misinformation in the previous version is all over the Internet. --Mantanmoreland 14:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Hmm..this does seem to pose a serious issue. Perhaps a large scale collaberation with members of the Article Creation Improvement Drive ? MadMax 16:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

text: *The entry was failed to be nominated and has been removed with only two votes unfortunatly. MadMax 15:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Mafia]]/[[Cosa Nostra]]/[[Italian organized crime]]

message: See; Venero Mangano
It's pretty crap and unrefined but he has a page now so I'm happy. Tell me if you see any major flaws/possible improvements (i know there is a tonne of them). Alexbonaro 05:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great job! I've done some minor editing, although the article itself looks very well written. I suppose, if anything, the convictions section could be broken up into other parts of the article and possibly if a little info could be found on his early life. Very impressive overall. MadMax 06:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thankyou very much. I will try and get more information (eg. what he started out doing, where born, when inducted. It will add more character to the article). I also added a mugshot. Alexbonaro 10:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I made my first article

message: *I've reformatted the Los Angeles Mafia, however it still needs a lot of work from more knowledgeable editors. Would a more appropriate title be Los Angeles crime family or even the more specific Dragna crime family ? MadMax 11:47, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: LA Mafia

message: *A new Wanted articles list has been created, based primarily on various missing topics lists I've created in the last year. Any additions or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. MadMax 15:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wanted list

message: *Just thought I'd mention the Timeline of organized crime now lists every year from 1880 to 2006. I'd just like to thank everyone for their contributions and hard work which made this possible. MadMax 20:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a problem Alexbonaro. I'm hoping the 2006 page will serve as a model for the rest of the timeline entries eventually. MadMax 06:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Timeline complete

message: *I've been working on some of the lesser known Jewish mobsters of the 1930s, mostly associates of Lansky and Buchalter, and I've come across a discrepancy between a claim in a published book "Murder Inc." by Burton B. Turkus and Sid Feir which claims Philip Kovolick was killed in 1949 after shaking down New York bookies in a protection racket and a New York Times article which reports his body was found sealed in a drum in Hallandale, Florida after fleeing from an indictment to appear before a Manhattan grand jury. Any thoughts ? MadMax 19:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Philip Kovolick

message: I've begun an article on this famous Murder, Inc. prosecutor, who certainly deserves one. Please weigh in. One question: I unintentionally omitted the middle initial from the title. Will fix in the article but do you think it should be fixed in the title? Better to do now then later.--Mantanmoreland 21:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure if I can use information I used in the previous article, however I'll ask around and see if anything from the former article could be salvaged. MadMax 22:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Was there a previous article on Turkus? --Mantanmoreland 23:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, unfortunatly one of the many articles deleted in connection to Jay Robert Nash (see ). MadMax 07:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Really? Who is Jay Robert Nash? Not clear from the log. I didn't know this had previously been deleted. Can it be re-created? All I have is a bare-bones stub at the moment.--Mantanmoreland 15:03, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

text: The FBI reports I've read in the FBI Reading Room on organized crime are actually pretty bad. The one on Lepke is dreadful. I'm not familiar with academic research on org. crime. I would love to know if there is any on this whole subject of the National Crime Syndicate, though! Now that you mention it, that would be a great subject for a dissertation.--Mantanmoreland 15:03, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just found out who Jay Robert Nash was. Not sure how that relates to the Turkus article, but if I'm thinking of the right guy this Nash is awful. I checked with Clyde, who says it is OK to recreate the Turkus article, sans Nash. I see that Nash is verboten as a source per Jimbo.--Mantanmoreland 18:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Burton Turkus]] 

message: A question has been raised by User:Will.i.am regarding the expansion of the Lenox Avenue Gang and possibly merging Gyp the Blood and other gang members into the article. MadMax 22:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They seem to be worth two articles. Both very interesting.--Mantanmoreland 23:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I initially raised the issue because they are both rather short articles (Gyp the Blood is almost a stub) and felt that they had a lot of overlapping information.  It appears like there is only one sentence in Gyp the Blood that provides information not in Lenox Avenue Gang (the latter even has references whereas the former has none).  Unfortunately I am not so familiar with the subject matter so I didn't know how much information was available about the Blood outside of his association with the Lenox Avenue Gang.--Will.i.am 19:10, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't even know there was a Lenox Avenue Gang. Sounds like a good subject of an article. There is always a little overlapping.--Mantanmoreland 22:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lenox Avenue Gang

message: In compiling several recent articles, I've run across a few inconsistant, if not confusing, facts. 
#First is Joseph Rao (drug trafficker), a former lietenant of Dutch Schultz involved in Harlem's policy banks and slot machine rackets (as well as the subject of the infamous 1931 hit by Vincent Coll resulting in the death of five-year-old Michael Vengali) and Genovese caporegime Joseph Rao (mobster) who controlled natcotics with Michael Coppola. However, according to Burton B. Turkus and Sid Feder's Murder, Inc: The Story of "the Syndicate", the two appear to be the one and the same. 
#Secondly, I've found numerous conflicting claims regarding Peter Magaddino whose relationship with Stefano Magaddino ranges from his son (see ), nephew (see ) and his first cousin as claimed in Joe Bonanno's autobiography A Man of Honor: The Autobiography of Joseph Bonanno.
:Good catch! The two Raos are definitely the same person and the articles should be merged. I haven't the foggiest idea how to do that. --Mantanmoreland 16:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Max, on Maggadino, I'd suggest mentioning the conflicting and sourcing the conflicting accounts. Bonanno's book is probably the most reliable and I'm not clear the source of the other two websites.--Mantanmoreland 21:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Contradicting articles

message: So says the article on Trigger Mike. Isn't that wrong?--Mantanmoreland 16:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Although a bit misleading, it's not entirely inaccurate. After Luciano and Genovese fled the country, Coppola was nominally in charge of many of their criminal operations by default. I've since reworded the statemnt. MadMax 14:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coppola was acting leader of Luciano's crime family? 

message: I've been trying to add additional information to Vincenzo Aloi, another article created by User:TheChin, since it was previously redirected as a stub to the Colombo crime family. However, the article doesn't clarify weither this is Vincenzo "Buster" Aloi or his son. I'm assuming its his son, given the 1923 birthdate, however the article give a much higher position within the Colombo family as consigliere (when he is stated as a New Jersey capo in 1988 ) ? MadMax 14:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vincenzo Aloi 

message: The date of death for Abraham Friedman differs between AmericanMafia.com and April 28 according to Albert Fried's The Rise and Fall of the Jewish Gangster in America (see ). MadMax 12:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Questions

message: The Castellano family is the same thing as the Gambino family and the Luciano Family is the same as the Genovese family, so separate articles for aren't needed for those. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.76.109.174 (talk • contribs) 
*Both red links have been redirected to their perspecive pages and removed from the to-do list. MadMax 16:15, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Castellano/Luciano crime families

message: I recently ran across the article Arthur Adler, however is this the same man who was killed by Sam DeStefano ? MadMax 14:58, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arthur Adler

message: There doesn't seem to be any mention of Genovese mobsters Louis DeSorbo and John Matarazzo, online or otherwise. If anyone can provide sources, please do so. MadMax 21:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unreferenced articles