Talk:Eva Perón/Archive 2

message: In a move that I'm sure will upset someone, I have taken the liberty to remove the link to the above mentioned article. The reasons are twofold: first of all, the article is poorly written; second of all, it contains historical inaccuracies. The greatest error of the article is the accusation that Peron was an admirer of Hitler. This is not true. The author of this article doesn't seem to be a scholar in Argentine history and therefore I don't see what use this article is. There is already a link to the article by Tomas Eloy Martinez, and he covers quite explicitly the fact that Peron, though not an admirer of Hitler, helped some Nazis escape in Argentina (in hopes of receiving information about German technology), and that Peron openly admired Mussolini (not Hitler). The People's History article seems amateurishly written and in my opinion it doesn't add to the article. If someone replaces the link, I'd recommend noting that the article contains historical inaccuracies or at the very least that it contains claims that have not been verified or that remain in dispute. Andrew Parodi 12:36, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Regarding removal of [http://www.libcom.org/history/articles/1919-eva-evita-peron/ People's History] article

message: Someone linked to the "Ciudad Eva Peron" article, which redirects to La Plata. It just occurred to me, shouldn't someone start an article about "Ciudad Evita," a city that actually still exists? Andrew Parodi 06:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Ciudad Eva Peron" vs "Ciudad Evita"

message: Something very ironic just occurred to me: slapping an article about Evita with a "not neutral" label is pretty redundant. I suppose the "uninitiated" do not realize just how polarized her portayal is, and that save for a hand full of very few biographies (most of them being biographies of Juan Peron that only mention Evita in passing), just about everything that is written about Evita is very biased. 
In "Evita-ology" this is referred to as the juxtaposition of "The White Myth" and "The Black Myth." Supporters of Evita in her day, and some even to this very day, view her (sometimes literally) as akin to The Virgin Mary ("The White Myth"). Those who oppose her viewed her in her day, and some even to this day, as an incarnation of classlessness, selfishness, naked ambition, and just plain evil ("The Black Myth"). From what I have found, there is only about one biography about Evita herself that is truly neutral, well written, and trustworthy, and that book is "Evita: The Real Life of Eva Peron" -- which is why it is a primary reference on this page. In the introduction of that book, the authors say that many believe that Evita is so buried under so much myth that retrieving her real story is impossible. 
I suppose what I'm trying to say here, folks, is, um, cut me a little slack ... and cut everyone else who works on this page a little slack. Though Wikipedia strives for neutrality, in the case of Eva Peron we are dealing an icon/persona that was almost purposefully created to make neutrality impossible. If the page seems at all non-neutral, that is not solely the fault of the writer(s) (mostly me), but largely the fault of the topic itself. 
Maybe there should be a subsection devoted to discussion of "The White Myth" and "The Black Myth." 
Also, if some of the statements I have made on this page are not cited, it is because I have been reading about Evita since 1991 (when I was 16), back before there was such a thing as the Internet. I wasn't reading with the intention of writing an article or report about her, but because she fascinated me. Therefore, by the time I came to this page, I was a virtual scholar in Evita history, though hardly a scholar in writing Wikipedia articles. This is why this page appears to, as one person said it, veer between being well written and sounding biased. Knowledge about Evita's life is just second nature to me at this point (dare I say I know more about her than most Argentines; yes, I dare say it); on the other hand, I'm a real beginner with writing Wikipedia articles. 
Oh, by the way, I can cite the statement about me knowing more about Eva Peron than most Argentines. The Head Mistress of St. Joseph's school in San Isidro, Buenos Aires told me so. I was an exchange student to Argentina in 1993. I lived with the family of Jorge Di Fiori , who was the president of the Chamber of Commerce of Argentina. His family lived in San Isidro, and I attended school with his son, Nicolas Di Fiori. During class one day, one of their teachers, a Senor Caballo, found out that I knew a lot about Evita. We had a history quiz about her that day, and he couldn't believe how much I knew about her. He left the class visibly shaken; he's the one who later told the head mistress how much I knew about Evita. (Here is a picture of me in front of Evita's tomb in 1993. Here is a picture of the Di Fiori family at the dinner table, which I took on my last night in Argentina. And here, oddly, is a picture I took of Liza Minnelli in front of Evita's tomb, summer of 1993. The bundle of flowers in Liza's hands were for Evita. I asked Liza if she likes Evita, and she said yes. Liza asked me how many people were in the Duarte tomb.) Andrew Parodi 04:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess that's why it's so dependent on Evita: The Real Life of Eva Perón by Marysa Navarro and Nicholas Fraser. Until you get to posthumous stuff it seems almost totally dependent on it in fact. Is there really nothing else reliable on this woman?--T. Anthony 11:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, in my opinion, the biography by Navarro and Fraser is about the only trustworthy biography on Evita herself. There are trustworthy biographies of Juan Peron that contain sections on Evita. But the only full length biography on Evita that I'd recommend is "Evita: The Real Life of Eva Peron." The biography by Dujovenes is pretty good, but the language is very flowery and it is not scholarly. This is one of the reasons Evita has been the subject of so much myth, because most of the biographies of her are not trustworthy. For being one of the most important figures in Argentine history, she's not really a very well studied woman. In fact, most Argentines don't know much about her at all. Andrew Parodi 02:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Evita and neutrality

message: I forgot to mention, if some of the statements in this article are without sources, in some cases that is because the sources have been removed by others. Seriously. Some people have intentionally come into this article and removed the sources of statements. I don't know why. (There have been other odd things going on with this article. Did anyone see that nonsense someone inserted into the section about "Evita as popular culture icon"? It was a rambling account of some ficticious people working with Cinergi pictures to get "Evita" made.) Andrew Parodi 06:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: About sources

message: The article first refers to her as "María Eva Duarte," then begins a paragraph with "Eva María Duarte..." Which version is correct?
Also, this statement: "On her marriage license, she stated her maiden name as María Eva Duarte, so it would appear that she had her father's last name; she also put that she was several years younger, and had her birth certificate altered" is confusing. What was the name on her birth certificate? Was Eva supposed to go by her mother's name, or some other nomenclature indicating that she was illegitimate? If so, that name should be added to the article -- right now the only (birth) surname mentioned is Duarte. --Marysunshine 03:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know what was meant, but Eva was daughter of  Juana Ibarguren and Juan Duarte. Her parents weren't married, and normally a bastard child takes the surname of her mother. God only knows what her birth certificate says, or when it began saying it.... - Nunh-huh 03:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maiden name 

message: From everybody. Otherwise you couldn't 
*count on graduating from school, 
*obtain employment, 
*get retirement benefits,
*stay out of the "gulag",
*etc
69.9.31.153 08:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: She received great adulation from the... 

message: I took the liberty of removing the neutrality tag because all of the concerns cited in the placement of the tag have since been dealt with. I have deleted the references that caused complaints, such as the reference to her being suggested for sainthood, the reference to the documentary on love, etc. Andrew Parodi 01:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed "neutrality/npov" tag

message: In my college class on research papers, we're reading the text called "The Curious Researcher" by Bruce Ballenger. In this text, the author says that things that are common knowledge do not need citation. 
As I look over this page about Evita, I am reminded of the fact that someone had some histrionics about the term "affectionate diminutive." The article read, "Eva Peron was referred to by the affectionate diminutive 'Evita'." Someone got all bent out of shape about that word "affectionate," saying that that was biased and no source. But it is commonly known that her followers referred to her as "Evita" in an affectionate way, and that those who did not like her did not have affection for her and did not refer to her as "Evita". 
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that this article is sort of being limited in scope by the idea that just about every statement made has to be sourced. There is so much about Evita that is already common knowledge that to suggest someone do searches for sources on statements is often a waste of time. The alternative is that people won't do anything, just leave the article sit there, which is what had happened for quite a while.... 
I had always understood this to be the case: anything that is common knowledge doesn't need to be sourced. I suppose the other thing that I'm getting at is that when one references the bias of another (certainly it was biased that some felt affectionate towards her), that reference should not be taken as indication of agreement with the bias. It's just stating a fact.
I think the fact that "Evita" was an affectionate diminutive is an important fact in her life, but I am fearful that if I put it back in the article then someone is going to complain that it's biased on my side. All the while, it is common knowledge that "Evita" is the affectionate diminutive. 
Also, I just added this closing paragraph to the intro paragraphs: 
:"Today, Eva Perón is perhaps best known to the world as the subject of the Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice musical Evita, which was later adapted as a movie starring Madonna."
I was almost afraid to add this paragraph because I can just see someone waiting in the wings to come out and say that I am biased in saying this, that this is "POV" on my part and that I don't have a source. Well, on one hand this is absolutely true. I did not in fact do a search of any kind before I wrote the above paragraph. The reason I didn't do a search for a quote or citation is because I don't feel I need one. I think it is common knowledge that she is most famous for being the subject of the musical. I would be surprised if more than 10% of those who read this article knew about her before they heard of the musical. Even Madonna herself said she had never heard of Evita before the musical. And yet I'm sure that at some point down the line someone is going to have some trouble with the above paragraph. Sorry. Guilty as charged. I don't have a source or citation for the above paragraph, and I'm not going to waste my time searching for one. What I state is common knowledge. Andrew Parodi 03:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Things that are common knowledge don't need citation

message: Yesterday, 207.200.116.132 added the following section, giving it the title ""The serendipitious pitch that led to the making of the film"
:"Budding film producer, Jillian L'Amour, casually brought up the subject of Madonna doing Evita to Michael Sloan over lunch at MGM in 1995. L'Amour was introduced to Sloan, then a top executive at Cinergi, through a co-worker of hers at MGM. As the three of them had lunch that day L'Amour, made an off-hand comment arising from L'Amour's long admiration for Eva Peron's work and Madonna's business acumen. Her respect for both successful women led to the melding of the idea which she voiced to Sloan who then spearheaded the project at Cinergi."
This section had been a part of the article before, but it had been combined in the movie section. It was pretty apparent then that it is a spoof section. As it was originally written, this section descended into some bizarre talk about someone being inspired by Eva Peron to make a movie about her and to become a cook, or some such nonsense. 
I did a search, and found no reference to a Jillian L'Amour or Michael Sloan, and I removed it. Then, just yesterday, the above section reappears. 
Anyway, my request is for others to keep an eye on this section. I have a feeling it's going to reappear at some point. If it does, please delete it ... or do your own search to see if you find any support for this stuff. I am pretty sure that it's nonsense, and even if it is true, it doesn't belong on this page but on the Evita (movie) page. -- Andrew Parodi 05:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Section: "The serendipitious pitch that led to the making of the film"

message: This is the biography. Please consolidate all references to the musical to one section and keep it small. -- 75.24.109.108 07:19, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The musical is significant, as it is the reason so many people actually know who she was.  I understand your thoughts in regards to such comments not being posted here, but the talk page is here for people to gather data/discuss inclusions, and such does have relevance.  Were it the article that would be a different story... Michael 07:27, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thus musical has is own article. It is free, based on the whims of producers and directors, to take dramtic license and be, at times, fiction. It is fine to refer to it here but please leave it at that.  This is the biography where the prose should focus on the historical Truth. -- 67.119.192.169 08:57, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The musical.... 

message: Look, this supposed necrophilia: if we have to mention it at all, then let us please get some specifics.  How many men were invovled? Do we have any names?  Did they undress? Did they have erections? Penile penetration of some sort? Ejaculation?  Huh? What happened?  Did they say "they could have..." but did not actually do so? What are the facts? So why are we mentioning this otherwise non-notable item at all? -- 67.119.192.169 08:55, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As was previously stated by another user, such did occur, and I'm sorry that we don't have the exact number, but the necrophilia is worth mention if you mention what happened to her body and go as far as to mention the hammer being taken to her cheek.  This is just as relevant. Michael 09:04, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If some roto-tiller did the necrophilia, then I would expect additional damage to the body. As it is, the "effect" of the necrophilia on the body was never so noticeable that it was known about until much later. The necrophilia hardly effected the body at all, unless semen was deposited, and then only because it could mess up a DNA test.  My opinion: the necrophilia is mostly in the mind of the necrophiliac.  Where does this lead to? Are we going to say next that Eva was raped and further violated? I think that the necrophilia is just tossed in for titilation. Sigh. Fine. Just please, from here on out: focus on the mind of the subject while they were alive. That is what the reader really wants to know about. She did not write any books so just try to get the facts about the life.  The body is like, blech... big deal. -- 67.119.192.169 09:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Evita's death is one of the reasons she is so famous as are many of the events following her life.  Likewise, the hammer to the face may have been in the mind of the smasher if you go under the mindset the the necrophilia is in the mind of the necrophiliac. Michael 03:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The necrophilia 

message: This article has been rated as A-Class on the assessment scale and is a likely Top Importance article at WikiProject Argentina. But as far as I can see it has not formally been through Good Article Review. It seems to have a good referencing system and illustration, although I am concerned there may be some POV issues and editors will have to relax their sense of ownership of the article.
I don't feel qualified myself to steer this through GA peer review and haven't contributed to the article. Could someone brave the rigours of that process and get this to Good Article status? I'm happy to help where I can. Martín (saying/doing) 18:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potential Good Article 

message: So now we have some TV show "accuse" Eva Perón "of being one of the most responsible persons in the world for allowing... blah blah blah". The web link does not seem to mention her by name in its blurb about that TV episode, so that makes it difficult to determine if the case is being presented either too strongly or still yet too weakly.  Do we have anything else in writing about this TV episode? Does the TV merely "suggest" this about Eva or does it "provide clear proof" or what? Now the video blub, after spending most of its time "setting the scene" and telling us things we already know, states:
:It is rumoured that they escaped aboard U-boats in the last days of the Third Riech. But recent revelations tell a far more sinister story.
and the text says:
:This program reveals how known killers were secreted down 'ratlines' through Europe, until they reached comparative safety in South America, where they could use their deadly training to support the militaristic regimes.
Uh, to my mind, that is not satifactory to support the current text about Perón.  Any other references to these "recent revelations?" -- 75.24.105.100 21:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can get a copy of the video yourself from THE HISTORY CHANNEL or perhaps even your local library; watch it.  It specifically says that Eva was one of the most responsible persons in the world for allowing Nazis to escape Germany.  Just because the information isn't published on some Blog indexed by Google doesn't mean that it shouldn't be in the article.  We can properly use TV shows, videos, books, and magazines as sources. It is easily verifiable.  Whether or not Eva is actually responsible isn't an issue that editors get to determine.  We are here to present information that is verifiable.  The History Channel says Eva is responsible and that is a verifiable claim.  If others disagree with that claim, then those people can also be cited.  I'm sure you think you own the "Truth" about Eva, but the fact of the matter is that people disagree about this issue and evidence from both sides of the issue need to be included to meet the standards of WP:NPOV. Vivaldi (talk) 07:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've seen the documentary you refer to. It contains flimsy citations at best. The citations in the section on Nazi allegations in this article are far more sound. Andrew Parodi 06:06, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is that the History Channel did produce a story saying this.  It isn't up to you or other editors to determine the "Truth".  The standand for inclusion in Wikipedia is not truth, but verifiability.  The claim is that the History Channel documentary accuses Eva of being responsible for many Nazis escaping prosecution.  That is a verifiable statement and it should be included at least to demonstrate that there is some dispute over these allegations. Vivaldi (talk) 08:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Allegations of fascist and Nazi sympathizing 

message: I hope no one will mind, but I changed the top picture. I was the one who uploaded the Time magazine picture. I did so because I wanted to emphasize that Evita had been acknowledged in US politics before the Andrew Lloyd Webber musical. But that image of Evita on the cover of time magazine is far from an "iconic" image of Evita. Most likely, what one wants at the top of an article is the most iconic image possible. Look at the Che Guevara article. I can't think of a more iconic image of Evita than of her speaking from the balcony of the Casa Rosada. Andrew Parodi 14:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Changed picture

message: I just introduced a trivia section. I think it's worth mentioning that David Keirsey believes Eva Peron and Madonna are the same personality type. I'm hoping I won't regret starting this trivia section, because I'm afraid it's going to become unmanageable at some point because people will begin adding all sorts of things. 
My goal here is to bring this article up to the "Good Article" status. I was wondering if perhaps it's best to not have a trivia section then. What do the rest of you think? Do Good Articles, and Featured Articles, have typically have trivia sections? Andrew Parodi 11:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Trivia section

message: There's been talk about pushing this article to the standard of a "good article." I've been hoping others would help with this, but so far it looks as though I myself am the only one really working at it on a daily basis. 
I just wanted to give a heads-up of my method here. As I've noted above, creating an article about Eva Peron that will be received as "neutral" is very challenging. My method at this point is to make almost every major statement a direct reference to a biography of Evita, or her own autobiography. At the moment, I am primarily concerned with what I consider to be THE best Eva Peron biograph: "Evita: The Real Life of Eva Peron." I am going through the article and structuring the article in accordance to the information in this book. Later, I will go through the article with another book, and then another, and another. 
So, if it looks as though the article at this point is heavily influenced by that one particular book, just be patient and I will go through and add information from other books as well. Also, if anyone likes, feel free to pitch in. My only concern here is attempting to create a good article about Evita. Andrew Parodi 11:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for noticing that. Obviously, that's incorrect. I think it was my own typo. Obviously, he found out in 1951. I think someone else already corrected this. Andrew Parodi 07:36, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Expanding article (again)

message: This is the expression used in forensics by native English writers. Jclerman 08:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This isn't intended for readership by forensic chemists. This is an encyclopedia for general readership and should therefore adhere to the standards of encyclopedic language. Andrew Parodi 21:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  time of death 

message: If you mean parentheses (because a pair of parenthesis) is needed to enclose text, they are not appropriate in the context discussed because within parentheses one writes text that can be excluded.
Quotation marks is what's appropriate for quoted text. Jclerman 08:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The way you have inserted the section from the Time magazine article makes it appear that this is the opinion of the editors of Wikipedia. It makes it appear that Wikipedia endorses what Time magazine wrote back in 1952 shortly after Evita's death. What I am saying is that something needs to be done to make it clear that what you have presented is the opinion of the writer of the Time magazine article, not the opinion of editors of Wikipedia. Andrew Parodi 21:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Parenthesis

message: I thought the information on her cancer, being limited to the section "Death" not only was abrupt but also out of sync in terms of chronology. The end of the segment on the Renouncement briefly mentioned her declining health, but by this time, she was very sick. I expanded this section, bringing the events of her health in sync with the chronology of her VP candidacy. This also gives more credance to the declining health as an alternative to the hypothesis espoused by biographers (that she was pressured to give up her candidacy).
Matthew 04:55, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Renouncement, cervical cancer and her death