Talk:3rd Dalai Lama

message: :Thanks, Yaan. Well, now I don't know what to believe. Either Laird is totally wrong and the other sources I give have included Qinghai as part of Mongolia, or your sources are wrong. I have never seen Qinghai mentioned as part of Mongolia elsewhere in accounts of Tibet - after all, it was the homeland of the Qiang tribes who are usually connected with the Tibetans rather than the Mongolians - but, perhaps it was considered so at this time because the Mongolians under Altun Khan had conquered it.
:The only extra information I can find is that, after Sonam Gyatso's first trip to Mongolia (when Altun Khan is said to have bestowed the tile on him), he travelled on to the Chinese capital before returning to Tibet. He made a second trip to Mongolia later and died there. Tibet by Thubten Jigme Norbu and Colin M. Turnbull (1968), pp. 219-220.
:While the following account does not specify the place of the events - it certainly seems unlikely to have occurred near Kokonor:
::"In this way, he came to the attention of Mongolians throughout Inner Asia, a development that ultimately resulted in a profoundly consequential relationship with Altan Khan (1507–1582), Genghis Khan's heir. Throughout much of the 1570s, emissaries went back and forth between bSod nams rgya mtsho and Altan Khan. Finally towards the end of 1577, the incarnation departed ’Bras spungs Monastery, meeting his patron 6 months later. Their first encounter is described as a pivotal event: 9
::Altan Khan alone wore white garments as a sign that the teachings of the [incarnation] would transform a place of darkness on the outskirts into a place of purity. The queen arrived together with ten thousand attendants and was welcomed by the faithful. The preceptor and the patron met for the first time. Altan Khan presented [bSod nams rgya mtsho] with numerous gifts, and the preceptor and the patron proceeded as a pair, like the sun and the moon, into the middle of an assembled crowd of perhaps one hundred thousand people.
::The lama transmitted religious teachings to the Khan, his family and ministers, and to vast crowds of people. According to our sources, he was particularly fond of giving initiations in the recitation of the mantra of Avalokiteśvara, the bodhisattva of whom, it will be remembered, he was thought to be an embodiment. Very consciously tracing the preceptor-patron paradigm established by ’Pags pa Lama and Kublai Khan three centuries earlier, Altan Khan acknowledged his lama's spiritual teachings by presenting him with gold, pearl-ornamented clothing, and the title by which the lineage would become known, Dalai Lama. Thereafter, his two predecessors were retroactively called the First and Second Dalai Lamas. In return, bSod nams rgya mtsho’ called Altan Khan a religious king (chos kyi rgyal po, dharmarāja), evoking once again the old Indian model of a just religiously inclined sovereign deserving of allegiance.
::For most of the remaining 11 years of his life, the Third Dalai Lama remained in Mongolia or in neighboring Tibetan regions. He returned to Mongolian lands to perform the funerary rites for Altan Khan and reinforced his connection to the Mongolian people. He received invitations from the Ming emperor, from a Kashmiri king, and from many Mongolian princes. However, he always gave precedence to the Mongolians, spending his last years among them and dying in their country in 1588."
From: The Dalai Lamas and State Power by Derek F. Maher - Downloadable from: http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1749-8171.2007.00018.x?cookieSet=1
:Whatever the case - we now have a real problem on our hands - with disagreeing authorities - I don't know how to resolve it quickly and ask other readers to please check further sources. I have just ordered today a copy of Fourteen Dalai Lamas: A Sacred Legacy of Reincarnation by Glenn H. Mullin, , which looks like an authoritative and detailed source and I will report here what it says (if someone else doesn't first) when I return in mid-July from a trip I am about to make. John Hill (talk) 00:24, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply to Yaan

message: Further note: I have just discovered the following account which contradicts Laird (see above) and places the event near Koko Nur as User:Yaan has maintained:
::"They finally arrived at the Altan Khan's camp south of Qinghai Lake (Khökh Nuur in Mongolian) on the 15th day of the 5th month of the Earth Male Tiger Year, the 12th year of the 10th Rabjung, according to the Kalachakra calendar (May of 1578), some seven months after leaving Lhasa. Thousands of Tibetan and Mongolian monks and lay-persons lined the route of his arrival. According to the Rosary of White Lotuses,
::When they reached the site of their midday meal, [Altan Khan] himself-the Turner of the Wheel of the Golden Age, he whose long life Heaven had protected-arrived, dressed in white clothes, which meant he had whitened the boundless realms of darkness. He was accompanied by the retinue of about 10,000 men, his wife and many attendants.
::In those days the Mongols still expected religious figures to perform mirific feats and Sonam Gyatso did not disappoint, as least according to traditional Tibetan sources. Asked by the Altan Khan to demonstrate his power, "he reached his arm into an enormous boulder lying near the Khan and from it extracted a huge conch shell, the matrix of which circled in reverse. He placed the conch to his lips and blew a sharp note, whereupon the earth shook."
::Sonam Gyatso then delivered a discourse to the assembled throng. He implored them to give up the practice of human and animal sacrifices which so often accompanied the death of a important Mongol (Chingis Khan's own son Ögedai had forty "moon-faced virgins" and numerous horses and other livestock scarified in honor of his father's memory) and told them to destroy their ongghot, the shamanic idols which many Mongolians kept in their homes and worshipped. Instead of blood sacrifices he suggested that the Mongols offer part of the deceased possessions to temples and monasteries and offer prayers to the deceased. He also implored the Mongols not to conduct bloody raids on their neighbors, including the Chinese, the Tibetans, and other Mongol tribes, and instead try to live in peaceful coexistence with their neighbors. He also suggested they make prayers and conduct other religious practices on the days of the new, half, and full moons. Finally he taught them a meditation on Avalokiteshvara, the bodhisattva of compassion, and the accompanying six-syllable mantra om mani padme hum.
::In honor of this auspicious convocation Altan bestowed upon Sonam Gyatso the title of "Dalai Lama". Dalai is a Mongolian word meaning "vast" or "oceanic"; it is also a direct Mongolian translation of the Tibetan word gyatso and thus a particularly fitting title for Sonam Gyatso. In turn, Sonam Gyatso gave Altan Khan the title "King of the Turning Wheel and Wisdom" and officially recognized him as a reincarnation of Khubilai Khan, the grandson of Chingis Khan and founder of the Yüan Dynasty in China." http://www.zanabazar.mn/Life/zanabazar.3.html
It is clear there is a serious contradiction in the sources available to me. Can anyone else please try to resolve this issue? I think it would be important to check Glenn H. Mullin's book, Fourteen Dalai Lamas: A Sacred Legacy of Reincarnation, but I won't be able to do this for another couple of months. Many thanks, John Hill (talk) 03:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I can do this. I'll be more likely to remember if someone leaves a note on my talk page in 36 hours, but I'll try. Gimme danger (talk) 03:23, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

text: I apologize for not doing this on time; I've been ill this weekend and haven't made it to the library. I'll swing by tomorrow if all goes well. Gimme danger (talk) 21:47, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

text: My library doesn't have the Mullin book, but I've taken out four other sources. From preliminary looks it seems like the meeting was at the lakes. I don't currently have the time to sort this out; about two weeks until freedom. Gimme danger (talk) 23:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Rene Grousset's Empire of the Steppes, New Brunswick 1970, also places the meeting at Koko Nor, but makes the Dalai Lama travel to Hohhot in 1585, after Altan Khan's death (p. 513f). But his account of the origins of the Jebtsundamba Khutughtus on p. 514 seems a bit different from what one reads elsewhere, so he is probably not the ultimate source. Yaan (talk) 19:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Plea for Help 

message: The article says: "Sonam Gyatso (Tibetan: བསོད་ནམས་རྒྱ་མཚོ་; Wylie: Bsod-nams Rgya-mtsho; ZWPY: Soinam Gyaco) (1543–1588) was the first officially recognized Dalai Lama, although the title was retrospectively given to his two predecessors."
Predecessors in what type of function? Is it known?
:Austerlitz -- 88.72.13.89 (talk) 20:46, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Predecessors

message: * "The 3rd Dalai Lama Sonam Gyatso took birth in Central Tibet to a upper-class family. He was recognized and subsequently enthroned at Drepung Monastery by Panchen Sonam Drakpa." "The young Dalai Lama was tutored by Panchen Sonam Drakpa.  Panchen Sonam Drakpa was the 15th Ganden Tripa and his texts still serve as the core curriculum for most Gelugpa monasteries."
to be inserted, I think.
:Austerlitz -- 88.72.13.89 (talk) 21:09, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Some information

message: * here it is said: "1576 lud Altan Khan (1507-1583) von den Tumed-Mongolen den zukünftigen Dritten Dalai Lama, Sönam-Gyatso, dazu ein, den Buddhismus in die Mongolei zu bringen. Zu dieser Zeit wurde Sönam-Gyatso „Gyalwa Rinpoche“ (tib. rGyal-ba Rin-po-che) oder „Drepung Tulku“ (tib. ‘Bras-spungs sPrul-sku) genannt. Er war der dritte in der ersten Reinkarnationslinie der Gelug-Tradition."
In 1576 -when going to bring buddhism to Mongolia- the Dalai Lama to be, Sönam Gyatso, used to be called by the name Gyalwa Rinpoche, tib. rGyal-ba Rin-po-che or "Drepung Tulku", tib.`Bras-spungs sPrul-sku. He was the third in the first reincarnationline of Gelug tradition.
Sounds as if the Gelugpa had different reincarnation lines.
:Austerlitz -- 88.75.89.225 (talk) 14:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Austerlitz -- 88.75.196.36 (talk) 14:36, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Titles

message: * "The Third Dalai Lama, Sonam Gyatso was born in 1543 at Tolung, near Lhasa, to Namgyal Drakpa and Pelzom Bhuti, a rich family." Why not mention the names of his parents?
:Austerlitz -- 88.75.196.224 (talk) 20:46, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: -- 88.75.196.224 (talk) 20:54, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Parents

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thread_title:  Dead link 

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message: On Dec 31, 2015, "Milktaco" added the statement "He was anti-shaminist" as an orphan sentence at the beginning of Altan Khan and the conversion of Mongolia.  It is cited, but the source is a book, so I can't easily check it.  First, it's poor form.  But most importantly, who is "he"? Altan Khan? Sonam Gyatso? (Milktaco has since been blocked.) The statement is completely irrelevant as is and unless someone can verify and relocate the information to an appropriate place in the article, I think it should be removed. Ghost writer's cat (talk) 02:05, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I worked on this a little.  Milktaco's cite does check out, so I tried to add some material to tie the information into the rest of the section.  Still very sloppy.  There's that comment about Altan Khan taking monks prisoner, here and on the Altan Khan page, that is a non sequitur, among other flaws. Ghost writer's cat (talk) 06:37, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-shaminist?