Talk:German invasion of the Netherlands

message: Using the plural seems to confuse some anglicization of German Luftstreitkräfte with the situation that there were truly several airforces present. The last is certainly not the case as the Dutch had merely an Army and a Navy air service; so not even a single airforce. Maybe we can agree on "air services"?--MWAK (talk) 18:40, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So, we can agree on "air services"? Or perhaps "air power"? "Air forces" is so ambiguous (it can indicate air power in general, several real Airforces or several air services) that it will only confuse.--MWAK (talk) 18:34, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

text: I'll make an appropriate choice ;o).--MWAK (talk) 13:51, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Air forces

message: I remember reading years ago (in "The Race for the Rhine Bridges" by Alexander McKee) about German paratroops dropping into a football stadium, hijacking trams and driving to the bridges. Is this true? if so it's so extraordinary it probably deserves a mention. Cyclopaedic (talk) 17:19, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assault by tram 

message: * One squadron, Kampfgeschwader 4. A Kampfgeschwader is the equivalent of a Wing, not of a squadron. It is built up from two, three or even four Gruppes (Groups), that are subdivided in Staffels (squadrons). In this instance a part of KG.4 took the Northsea route, whereas another part split off half way the Waddenzee, across the Ysselmeer and raided Schiphol.
**Yes, Kampfgeschwader should be translated with "wing". 
* A dozen Dutch aircraft were destroyed on the ground. The Dutch planes that were able to take off shot down thirteen German aircraft. That is a mix of arguments that isn't traceable. The 13 shot down aircraft probably refer to the 3.JaVA at Waalhaven that alone downed that number. But the number of destroyed Dutch aircraft must include for example the Bergen raid. If that is the case, than there should be a considerably higher number of downed German aircraft. E.g. make this consistent and report the area's that are concerned. Now it is unclear and above all incorrect.
**Indeed, the entire info in the article about the activities of the Dutch airforce is still poorly developed.
* Total Ju-52 losses during the battle were much higher. Around 250 already on the first day (please refer to Speidel and Morzik on that account) alone. Furthermore the Hooton (crap) of 125 destroyed and 47 damaged is by far not representing 50% of the fleet strength. KGzbV1 and 2 - both entirely assigned to the Dutch theatre - alone represented 430 Ju-52. Another about 150 Ju-52 were assigned elsewhere (mainly the KGrzbV involved in Eben Emael and the Norway fleet). At 1 January 1941 - after many Ju-52 could be repaired - around 175 full losses remained from the Dutch theatre.
**You mean Der Einsatz der Operativen Luftwaffe im Westfeldzug 1939/1940? But is the information from this work still up-to-date? And German Air Force Airlift Operations is from 1961. Anyway, the percentage needs correction.
*** I have the exact figures, but also the NIMH - Dutch Military History Institute - has released these figures long since.
****But are you sure no more modern research exists? That could be the source of Hooton's numbers? 
***** Even more so, recent extended research by the Studiegroep Luchtoorlog (in coop with NIMH) has shown even higher figures. By the way, Hooton is a terrible source.
******Then we had best mention these new numbers! Have they been published and what is the citation?
******* Available at http://www.nimh.nl/nl/search/search.aspx?SearchText=vliegtuigverliezen
* Valkenburg, unmetalled. The Dutch had no metalled airstrips whatsoever, so this remark is out of line. There were hardened or concrete strips on some air-bases, but basically only Schiphol had a full concrete infrastructure.
**The English usage can be confusing; "metalled" no longer means a macadam strip or road per se, but any hardened surface.
*** I consider it a wrong use of the term 'metalled', and I consider it incorrect indication of the state of the airfields in that era. It is misleading.
****If no concrete was planned to be used at Valkenburg, "metalled" is certainly incorrect and should be replaced by "hardened".
***** As far as I know there were no plans to harden Ypenburg and Valkenburg.
******But something was planned to reinforce the soil? 
******* No, at all sites it was a matter of lowering the ground-water level. Drying out in a way.     
* Fire by three batteries should be fire from three batteries.
**Either is correct, I think, but the latter is certainly preferable. 
* Four planes of the first wave of transports were destroyed[Waalhaven]. What is your source, because this is complete crap. The first wave landed without a single loss. Theu carried two platoons of 9./IR.16, some pioneers with motorbikes and the KP Trupp of 9./IR.16. They arrived without losses. Please refer to the IR.16 and III./IR.16 battle reports.
**O, dear, I'm afraid you yourself are the source: I misinterpreted earlier remarks by you about the event. But is it at least correct that four planes were lost? And, if so, when were they lost?
*** Where am I the source? My detailed study of the event mentions no losses whatsoever. Six planes in the first landing shift, three planes following shortly after. None of them lost. Please see:  http://www.zuidfront-holland1940.nl/index.php?page=ijsselmonde-2
****Well, much earlier in our discussions on this talk page you stated "The Ju landings on Waalhaven suffered only four losses". I wrongfully assumed these occurred during the first landings. 
***** Indeed, but the first wave comprised also a batch that flew in the rest of 9./IR.16 as well as 12./IR.16.
******So the four planes lost were not caused by fire from the defendants?
******* Does that matter?
********Well, to make a contrast with the situation at Ypenburg...
********* It is unfair to make a comparison with Ypenburg. Over there the AAA was deployed in a most strategic way, able to cover the air space of the landing approach whereas the AAA positions itself (save the one at Voorburg) were not approachable to German formations. Moreover it is extremely hard to determine what caused which. At Ypenburg the joint fire of AFV's, dozens of Dutch MG's and light AA guns created a dead-run for the landing of the first wave of air-landing troops. But at Waalhaven the airborne landing had been rather pin-point and successful, so that when the first German Ju-52 landed the airfield defences incl light AA guns had virtually ceased to exist. A mere handful of MG's had survived.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grebbegoos (talk • contribs) 10:06, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Falso info 10 May 

message: MWAK, we continue with 11 May.
* Winkelman saw no priority whatsoever in a French build-up in Brabant. As a matter of fact he dropped all subjects below the Maas, with exception of the province Zeeland. In that respect the TBB [Territoriaal Bevelhebber Brabant] had already pre-war been instructed that as off the very moment that III.Corps and Light Division would have been successfully withdrawn into the Fortress, he should submit to the French command and follow their directives. The French build up was entirely the French prerogative, as was already clear from the Gamelin-Winkelman telecon on the 10th of May 1940.
**Well, certainly he realised that he himself could do little to facilitate a solid French front in the area. Nevertheless — again in the larger strategic view — such a French presence was an necessary condition for a prolonged Dutch resistance. So, though it was not a major Dutch operational priority, it was obviously still a fundamental concern. I agree that the difference between the two situations should be made more explicit.
*** Let's agree on the latter.
* The LD was not permitted to break off and reinforce the Dutch troops on the Island of Dordrecht. It was ordered to cross the Merwede to the Island, kick out the German airborne troops, cross the Kil, recapture the bridge at Barendrecht and from thereon move into the south of Rotterdam. Those were the orders to the C-LD. Should you doubt this, please relate to this URL where the marching orders are quoted. 
**That would be an excellent addition.
*** Then we agree on that too.
* The 'second battalion' did not try to expand its bridgehead, but had been under orders from the start to submit itself to the command of the garrison commander of Dordrecht. The following passage in the text is unidentifiable: ' Although the crossings were successful, the first lacked artillery support and the advance was executed only hesitantly; the troops were ambushed and dispersed, with many men being taken prisoner'. If that is related to 3.GB ('the first battalion') the information is inadequate as to lack of arty support (which they had) and the number of POW's lost (which were no more than about a dozen). If it refers to the second battalion, which seemes to be more appropriate, the text should be modified because it is confusing, particularly the first lacked artillery which seems to refer to the first battalion.
**Yes, the text is confusing and should be improved. I was unaware artillery support had been given.
*** 3.GB had one battery of 23.RA at its disposal. The Ravelli battalion a full battalion of 23.RA that indeed assisted at Amstelwijk (b.t.w. against a ghost enemy ...).
* It was not 12.GRDI that attempted to assault the Moerdijk pocket but 5.GRDI in cooperation with elms of 6.RC. 12.GRDI was still at Zeeland - Woensdrecht peninsula at the time. Moreover, 5.GRDI brought in at least two platoons Panhard, whereas the elms of 6.RC present had its Panhard on recce missions towards Lage Zwaluwe and Geertruidenberg. It were the Panhards of lt Martin of 5.GRDI that supported the attack.
**Indeed, I had the two confused.
*** No probs. 
* In Rotterdam and The Hague there were not simply paratroopers but airlanding forces particularly. So paratroopers should be editted from the content. In Rotterdam there were no more than around 50 paratroopers active in the frontline, and north of Rotterdam no more than around 700 paratroopers landed. I wonder where the figure of 1,600 came from. The pockets at Valkenburg, Ockenburg, the dune region and Overschie held around that figure in total, but referring to such as 'The Hague' is quite non-specific.
**Well, it is non-specific because we want to indicate the general area "near The Hague". The number came from De Jong Deel 3, I believe — I had better give the exact citation. "Paratroopers" is indeed inexact in both occasions.
*** I permit to disagree. The Residence operation was an independant operation from the tactical operation in the south. They should be seperately addressed, like your most popular source [May 1940 - the battle for the Netherlands] does. By the way, are you aware that the Amersfoort / Kamphuis 1990/2005 book has been published in English just a months ago? Slightly editted, partially also incorporating some of the findings of yours truly. Brill International Publishing (Leiden) has launched it for the British and American market ... ;)
****No, I wasn't aware of that and thank you for bringing it to my attention! Seeing that it costs an astounding $128 :<o, I'm unlikely to acquire an personal copy. Should any improvements have bearing upon this article, don't hesitate to mention them :o). But it's good to see that at last extensive printed information is available to the general international public. I'm not sure I get your point regarding this particular issue. Is your objection that Overschie is near Rotterdam and therefore indicating the residence operation with a purely geographical description is inaccurate?
***** I got a review copy, so I didn't have to pay the astonishing price, but otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to buy it either. It is the same old crap as before. I am assessing the book once again, this time for the English speaking world (on www.waroverholland.com), but continue to be amazed what an overload of factual errors are contained in this book, that the editors dare to call the new standard and based on 'the newest scolarly research'. They have vitually missed out on all scolarly publications for the last decade or so! So many factual errors in such a simple piece of work. Anyway ... back to the actual matter. My intention is that the Residence and Rotterdam areas are strictly seperated and that airbornes and air-landing troops are addressed seperately too (or defined in the terms under one combined definition).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grebbegoos (talk • contribs) 22:34, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we are now more or less in agreement over these points and will implement the changes, after which I'll address the issues of 12 May.--MWAK (talk) 06:15, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  False info 11 May 

message: * It is more accurate to state that during the 11th of May 9.PD saw little action. No action is inaccurate because point formations of the reinforced recce battalion did see action against Dutch and French units. Limited action, nonetheless some. Furthermore, not 9.PD 'decided' to link up with the airborne troops, but it was instructed to do so under the applicable operation and marching orders. That seems an overkill in nuance, but the virtues of the 'Auftragstaktik' demand such a nuance to be precise. Therefore 'decided' should be replaced by 'was under orders to link up'. Moreover, it was not 'the Dutch front to be resolved' but the fact that a decisive breach in the Peel-Raamline was reached that triggered the take-off of 9.PD.
**The last is certainly an important point. Of course 9.PD was under orders to link up with the airborne forces, but was it explicitly obliged to act the very moment a breach had materialised? French battle reports indeed indicate they encountered units of 9.PD but I've always wondered whether they in fact bumped into the armoured car platoons of the Infantry Divisions. Where exactly did the encounters take place? 
*** 1) The 9th PD was under instructions to take off at the very moment of breaching the Peel-Raam position. It was then to overtake the 254.ID and 256.ID that had been assigned to achieve the aforementioned breach. 2) The German infantry had no armoured car [wheeled AFV's] platoons. Besides the motorized infantry divisions (of which only SS-VT was assigned to 18.Armee) only the tank divisions had armoured cars (in their AA's). A few regular infantry divisions had some of the old light armoured vehicles in one or two platoons in their AA's, such as de Kfz.13/14, but that was it. The Aufklarungsregiment 9 - that had about 50 wheeled AFV's - had been divided in three columns, which had been reinforced with a few Pz.II tanks, a few companies of motorized infantry of SR.10 and SR.11 and some mechanized FLAK and Arty. These three (later two of them merged) had to point the way for the division. One formation took the Langstraat (northern) route, the other the southern route which led them to the south of Breda. It were those German armoured elms that fought some skirmishes with the French. Only on 13 May some medium tanks met up with French troops of 25.DIM and 6.RC at Breda (Ginneken and Princenhage). That was the only clash between the 9.PD main tank-force and the French in Holland.Grebbegoos (talk) 23:28, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  False info 12 May 

message: * The Ministers left the Hook at 1920 hrs, not at 1720 hrs. If the TOD is mentioned it should be right.
**Correct.
* 9.PD had eight tank-companies, not six as the text suggests. Both tank-battalions were formed with a Staff-Company (comprising 8 tanks), two light companies (organically 22 tanks each) and a medium heavy company (organically 19 tanks). Companies were number 1 thru 4 in I./PzRgt.33 and 5 thru 8 in II./PzRgt.33.
**Well, they had eight companies with tanks but six tank companies. The staff company, though having a tank allotment, was not a tank company.
*** Well, funny that the Germans maintained 8 numbered companies then! 1st u/i 4 of 1st Tank Battalion PzRgt33 and 5 u/i 8 of 2nd Tank Battalion PzRgt33. That should be maintained. The staff companies were both used independantly (like the most well known assault at Barendrecht) or combined with another tank company. Would you maintain the same odd method if it were for the infantry regiment companies, stating that these had only 12 infantry companies for the other three (or four) were support companies?
****Why, I think I would :o). They would be Infantry companies of course, companies belonging to the Infantry Arm — but they would not be infantry companies, companies composed of infantry. Furthermore, applying your line of reasoning we would have to call any company within an armoured unit a tank company, even if it did not possess any tanks at all. The least we can say is that this would be rather misleading.
*****No, it is misleading to leave out 10% of the AFV component for the sake of stubborness. It is quite simple. If it were plain staff companies (Stab Kompanies) they would not have been numbered. Numbered companies were fighting units with armed AFV's. The Armoured Pioneer companies in the PD's, also containing AFV's, were not counted as fighting units, notwithstanding that they also possessed some armed AFV's.
******Then it would perhaps be best to mention the staff companies separately, with an indication of their tank strength. Both crossed into the Island of Dordrecht? 
******* The first company joint the mission into Dubbeldam, later the centre of Dordrecht. The other one first stayed south of Moerdijk and rejoint the division on the 14th at Rotterdam.  
* The effort to flood the Island of Dordrecht were unsuccssful due to the failure to set the inlet sluices open. Attempt by arty and by 3.GB failed.
**It should certainly be mentioned that the attempt itself to open them failed.
*** Then it should read 'attempts', because there were a number of independant actions undertaken, on several days. 
*  However, two of the four battalions available were decimated in a failed effort to recapture the suburbs of Dordrecht. According to the ref 184? This is untrue info and not an accurate recital. There was no decimation whatsoever. Please explain to which event this refers.
**This has to be re-edited.
* On their tops? On top of the German armour.
**Indeed not on top of the Dutch infantry :o). We had better remove the ambiguity.
* The Dutch battalions were not waivering before the 'orange cloth' event but after. The Stuka attack that followed the tank intervention was only called in when the first tanks were shot off of the causeway. Only then the waivering of the battalions occured.
**Are you absolutely sure there was no prior German bombardment also?
*** 100% sure. It were the tanks being shelled by a 7-veld gun calling in air strikes by means of flares. That was when the tanks bashed into the point formations of the LD massing along the Zeedijk. 
* a catastrophe was prevented by 47mm and 75 mm batteries destroying with direct armor piercing fire two Panzer IIs, after which the remainder of the German tanks fell back. What is the source for two Pz.II being shot? There are no sources specifying the German losses. This is wild speculation. The recital given (ref 185] does not specify 2 Pz.II being shot up.
**I seem to recall I had that from Brongers. Could be mistaken though.
*** This is exactly the action that caused the tankers to call in the Stuka's 
* The text doesn't mention that the LD left wing opposing the tanks lost about two full companies of POW's. That in comparison to the text stating that a successful withdrawal was completed by the LD is quite untrue. The losses were heavy and the withdrawal absolute chaos. Moreover, not the LD withdrew to the Alblasserwaard, but only about two battalions did. The balance stayed in Dordrecht (whereas two battalions had remained along the Noord all along) and fought until night fall.
**Good improvements.
* Again, the tank losses in Dordrecht are not supported by adequante sources whereas the recitals [186 and 187] do not specify these losses. And rightly so, because they are unknown. The tank losses were in any case higher than specified in the text. Also at least two Pz.III and one Pz.IV were put out of action. Moreover the Germans were not beaten back in the Dordrecht city but withdrew on order. In fact they had managed to decisively breach the Dutch inner-city defences. Infantry was following up just beyond that line. Only when the tanks withdrew the Dutch managed to reclose the gap.
**Well, I used the information given by you on 11 May 2009: Afterwards one of the medium tank companies of 1.Abtl raided the inner city of Dordrecht, where the lost quite some tanks. The first two Pz.II sent in - as recce party - were destroyed in no time by AT guns. Afterwards another bunch of tanks were either crippled or destroyed. As the number of two destroyed is given by Amersfoort, I only mentioned these. If you based yourself directly on primary sources you are right that such details have to be omitted. Maybe we can describe it as "at least two tanks". In an another earlier discussion between us you stated that the German tank losses on the Island of Dordrecht amounted to twelve. If about ten of these were suffered in Dordrecht and three more were disabled, total losses for the tank company would have equalled about half of its strength. That they had breached the defences is stated in the text but having to return, on order or otherwise, to avoid further losses, is fairly described by "beaten back", I would say. But we could rephrase it in less "strong" language!
*** As you can see my quote you used doesn't specify the total losses. Certain are the losses of 2 off Pz.II, 2 off Pz.III and 1 off Pz.IV in the city. These were mentioned in battle reports of PzRgt33. The Quartermaster of 9.PD gives higher losses but these cannot be matched to events nor to any supporting evidence of battles in Dordrecht. These losses were for the entire Island of Dordrecht. Btw: 'Beaten back' [in Dutch 'teruggeslagen'] clearly indicates rebuffing, repelling or rejecting and does not accurately describe the facts, which were that the tanks were called off by the Germans themselves.
****Then "at least two PzKpfw IIs" and "ordered to retreat" would be acceptable?
***** Yes 
* The description of the Barendrecht event is inaccurate two. The assault force comprised four Pz.II of a Stabszug and was led by the attached Pz.III of Lt Grix. Two Pz.II were positioned on either side of the Barendrecht bridge northern land-head to give supressing fire. Only two Pz.II with the spearing Pz.III went across the bridge and were hammered into destruction.
**Well, I went by your statement of 11 May 2009: The Staff platoon of 1.Abtl raided the Barendrecht bridge, with three Pz.II and one Pz.III. All four were destroyed by a single AT gun. This is confirmed by your list of total 9. PD losses. Could it be that you have now been influenced by the traditional account that three tanks had been destroyed? Or should the list be corrected?
*** No, I have simply made an error in an earlier assessement, apparently. Five tanks involved, three destroyed.  
* The addressing of the Irish Guard battalion suggests as if they were around the corner. They were in Hook of Holland, well away of the events.
**The fact that the battalion was positioned in Hook of Holland is mentioned. We could indicate the distance.
*** You should, cause the text suggests as if they could intervene any time.
* Both the Dutch company-size formations that assaulted the Willemsbrug areas contained Marines.
**But they weren't completely made up of them, right?
*** The text states now  Two Dutch companies, one of them of Dutch marines, stormed the bridgehead ; that suggests as if one company of marines was involved, the other made up out of regular infantry (or so). That is incorrect. One company was entirely made up out of marines, the other partially with additional navy troops and a few engineers. Both were led by marines officers.
****Perhaps we should simply speak of "two companies of Dutch marines"?
***** "Two companies mainly composed of marines" would seem suitable to me. 
* The events around the Willemsbrug lasted for many hours. After all the Dutch found themselves cornered between the fiercly defending Germans in the Insurance building and the evenly fiercly firing south side of the river. After hours of intensive close quarter fire, the Dutch companies withdrew.
**The time aspect can be mentioned.
* The Kornwerderzand defences did not contain 55 mm AT guns. It were both (outside defences) navy guns of 3,7 cm and (embedded) the HIH 'kanon van 5 lang 50 no.1' which had a calibre of 4,7 cm.
**My mistake. 
* South towards the Grebbeberg, during the evening and night the Dutch had assembled about a dozen[196] battalions for a counterattack to retake the main line. This is pure fantasy by the author of this article! There were five battalions available for the counter-attack and a sixed one to reinforce the main line on the hill (Grebbeberg) itself. Again the given reference [196, Amersfoort pg 308] doesn't support the text. The source [196] states that in total thirteen (13) battalions were incorporated in either the existing defence-lines or the counter-attack. I myself have never been able to come to more than 10 battalions and half the 4th regiment hussars. But Van den Doel and Amersfoort have big thumbs ... ;)
**Well, first of all the text certainly isn't meant to suggest twelve battalion actually participated in the counterattack! However, of the thirteen battalions mentioned by Amersfoort as "available", clearly a dozen were reserves as two battalions of 8IR had been largely destroyed. In fact such reserves were indeed present: apart from the five battalions of brigade B, they included: II-19 RI; III-11 RI; I-46 RI; II-11 RI; I-20 RI; 11e Grensbataljon; and elements of 3e and 4e Regiment Huzaren. It all adds up doesn't it? 
*** No, it does not. Many of those battalions were either incomplete (11.GB only two companies for example, the five battalions of the counterattack only made up less than four battalions strength) or heavily battered, like the 8.RI battalions, II-11.RI, III-11.RI (only three companies) and II-19.RI (only three companies) battalions. 3.RH was not around (but one squadron), of 4.RH only two squadrons. My objection to such quantitative comparison is that it is unreliable. It suggests much more than there was. Besides the current text does indicate that 12 btl were involved in the counter attack. Can you read South towards the Grebbeberg, during the evening and night the Dutch had assembled about a dozen[196] battalions for a counterattack to retake the main line any other way???
****Well, it is followed by However, not all of these units would be concentrated into a single effort. Some battalions had been fed immediately into the battle at the Stop Line, and others were kept in reserve, mainly behind the fall-back line near the Rhenen railroad. Four were to be used, under command of Brigade B, for the flanking attack from the north. However, I think we can rephrase the first sentence to remove any misleading suggestion from the outset. As regards the numbers, I wouldn't say the impression given is all that inaccurate. For twelve reserve battalions you expect 48 companies or squadrons of which 43 were present. Not a very great discrepancy. And was not some of the difference compensated by smaller units? Nevertheless we could add that not all battalions were at full strength.
***** Not 43, something like 37 to 38 at the most. The five battalions of the counter attack (Brigade B plus one of IV.Corps) already missed out on four companies. The II and III-11.RI, II-19.RI missed one company (save the losses suffered) allocated elsewhere. The 8.RI battalions had lost much more. The thing is that these kinds of summaries are misleading. Moreover, it was not like there were 12 battalions to counter strike. Only five were assigned counter strike tasks. The majority were either replacement or rear defence forces.
******The last should certainly be made clear by the rephrasing. A sentence like "Furthermore, most battalions were a quarter below strength"  would then remove the drawback of an in itself too simplistic numerical comparison?
******* Partially. Furthermore it should be mentioned what the German strength was. That is not mentioned. That involved three SS battalions (save their losses, comprising around 300 men WIA and KIA) and SS support troops (like four supporting companies including the 15th Kradschutzen), three unbattered battalions of IR.322 and two untouched battalions of IR.374 (west of Wageningen). The strengths of these battalions of both belligerents was almost equal.
********The German strength and the force parity should be indicated also.
* 207.ID was not committed to fight for the first time! Its 368.IR had developed an assault on the Ede-de Klomp region on the 12th, and had been rejected with severe losses (incl. a battalion commander).
**True. 
*  The Germans planned to shift two regiments of 3rd Army Corps to this part of the line.[203]. What the hell is that? 3.AK was Armeegruppe A and faced the Luxemburg area. Please get rid of this straight out nonsense and scrap Lou de Jong as a source for troop movements! Totally unreliable as is certified by this citation.
**This has to be re-edited.
* It were basically two Armee Corpses [II and IV] and Brigade B that were withdrawn. III.LK largerly stayed in position.
** You mean during the evening of the 13th? Surely on the 14th III LK was withdrawn to the west also?
*** III.LK connected to the south of the Eastfront, which was a minor move
****Agreed, but still a move?
* 227.ID only found out at the 14th that the Grebbeline had been deserted by the Dutch.
**Certainly, but the text refers to the gap in the defences, not to be confused with the general withdrawal.
Grebbegoos (talk) 10:34, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Falso info 13 May 

message: * Winkelman already gave orders to occupy a position north of Amsterdam on the 12th, not only on the 14th. The 'Amsterdam position' was not the same as the North front. It was an improvised position behind the Noordzeekanaal (Northsea-canal). 
**Excellent improvement.
* Adolf Hitler was safe in his bunker near the French front, so its quite unlikely that he himself intended to cross the Meuze. It was the Leibstandarte. Please address the unit as SS Leibstanderte or SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, in short SSLAH.
**Well, the italics should have made that clear anyway :o). But for the sake of precision it should be as you say. 
* Meanwhile two squadrons of Heinkels arrived? Two formations that should say. A squadron is an equivalent to a German Staffel, which means around 12 air-planes. This were around 90-100, divided over two groups.
**Good point. 
* The flares were shot from the Noordereiland only upon the arrival overhead of the southern (smallest) formation. At that very point the eastern formation had started its bomb run already. Before the southern formation was waived off the eastern formation had already started the raid. The text seems to suggest otherwise.
**Not necessarily, I would say, but we can remove the ambiguity. 
* The amount of 158 x 250 kg and 1.150 x 50 kg bombs was the total number of loaded bombs in the entire Geschwader. The number is retreived from the Quartiermeister of KG.54 and only sums up the Geschwader load, not the number of bombs dropped. Should the theory be right that indeed only around 60 bombs dropped their pay-load, the number of bombers dropped must have been around 2/3 of the 1.305 bombs. Moreover, it is almost certain that also bombers of the Ju-88 type raided tactical positions along the Meuze river at around the same time. This is also what Oberst Lackner reports in his account. Remarkably enough this is never copied in Dutch sources, perhaps due to the high 'copy-paste' content the description of the Rotterdam raid contains in Dutch historical work.
**Very good point. We can subtly indicate this, I trust. However, for the Ju-88 attacks a secondary source is needed.
*** The commander of KG.54 - Oberst Lackner - clearly states in his October 1952 report on the affair: An Bomben auf Rotterdam wurden insgesamt rd. 60 Tonnen abgeworfen (50 kg und 250 kg) and Ein oder 2 Stuka-Gruppe - Genaueres weiss ich hierüber nicht - erhielten ausserdem den Befehl, gleichzeitig besondere Punktziele in der Stadt, wie Nachrichtenzentralen, Kraftversorgung und Ähnliches anzugreifen. Why would you need a secondary source on that? Dutch military reports clearly indicate the raid to last at least 20-30 minutes. Besides even photographs show evidence, like the Bijenkorf building being unharmed and untouched during the first footage of the firestorm, whereas on later pictures in the afternoon the building was clearly destroyed by bombs. Karel Mallan erroneously concluded in his book 'Als de dag van gisteren' [pg. 222 - remark at picture 224 of the Bijenkorf - compare photo 249] that the Germans used timer-fuses. An unlogical suggestion. The German push across the bridges was scheduled 30 minutes after the raid had started [e.g. 20 minutes after it had ceased] and timer-fused bombs would therefore particularly have jeopardized the German push through the city. 
****Again, it is not that I doubt the truth of the matter. But when such new elements are introduced, they have to be mentioned by some book. Isn't that report referred to by any author?
***** :) You stick with the old rap, MWAK. I am not going to bother about the odd moral that secondary sources prevail over primary sources. I am not gonna be bothered about this. Suit yourself (and wiki). 
Grebbegoos (talk) 23:42, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. I tend to get distracted...I'll change the 14 May chapter and then address the 15 May issues.--MWAK (talk) 11:48, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Falso info 14 May 

message: * It is inaccurate that all units were informed at 1650 hrs of the armastice (not the surrender). First of all Winkelman forgot to inform the Navy Staff. Secondly he only informed his direct subordinates at 1650 hrs. It took hours to inform lower units and most commanders only received the news of the armastice when the 1900 hrs radio statement was announced.
**This could indeed be made more clear. 
* Chief executive of the homeland? He was acting head of state.
**Well, he was the highest executive power, so we can call him so. "Chief executive" has perhaps too many business connotations :o).
*** Indeed, Chief executive is not a governmental e.g. administrative title. (acting) Head of State was.  
* It is often seen in history books, but the Dutch did not surrender on the 14th. Winkelman only announced an armastice, which still had to be accepted by the Germans. Only on the 15th the armastice transferred into a capitulation.
**I haven't read the actual phrasing Winkelman used. Did he explicitly ask the Germans to start armistice negotiations? Obviously, he could not unilaterally cause an armistice agreement to go into effect. Of course, a conditional surrender would oblige the Germans to observe a cease-fire until they had decided to accept it or not, but that's a different matter. An unconditional surrender must lead to an immediate and lasting end of hostilities, but apparently both parties at least tacitly understood the surrender to be conditional, otherwise there would have been no need for capitulation negotiations.
*** Well, we shouldn't make it all too complicated I presume. Technically there was an armastice (a surrender in Rotterdam) as off 1900 hrs, but it was pre-announced to the German ambassador that it was an armastice to army-surrender. So a conditional surrender till the unconditional surrender was agreed on the 15th. As we know some details of the German demands were altered during this brief meeting in Rijsoord, which proofs the status of the conditional surrender thusfar.
****Perhaps pointing out that the surrender implied a cease-fire will be enough? 
***** Yes, why not, that clarifies the matter.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grebbegoos (talk • contribs) 22:17, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Finally found some time...--MWAK (talk) 18:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  False info 'the surrender' 

message: * On the 10th three GRDI's arrived in Zeeuws-Vlaanderen and moved into Walcheren the same day. They had to form a forward defence for an infantry regiment to arrive at Vlissingen on the 11th.
**Very true of course. I planned to treat this within a better account of all French troop movements, but there's no reason not to mention it here straightaway.
* The Dutch only considered the Zanddijkline defensible. Not the Bathline.
**Yes, but in a different meaning of "defensible" than is used in the text. The Bath Line as such offered good defensive possibilities but they intended to merely wage a delaying battle here. The French didn't see those possibilities.
*** Hmm. The thing is that the Bathline was never an intensional defence-line. It was a 'opnamestelling' (don't know the English word for that). It was intended to form a security defence in case of a sudden invasion from the south and/or a 'opnamestelling' for Brabant forces. It was hardly suitable for prolonged defence and not treated as such, also given the small occupation.
****These aspects should indeed be made more clear. Opnamestelling or Aufnahmestellung in German have no equivalent in English. Like Auffangstellung they are typically translated with "delaying position" or "collecting line".   
*  However, the French were not convinced of their value and positioned their troops at more conspicuous obstacles. Poorly put. General Durand - the French General who had taken general command of the combined forces in Walcheren - considered the Zanddijkline indefensible and moreover anticipated an amphibious German attack from the north across the Easterscheld. He therefore moved his regiment along the north shores of Walcheren west of the Zanddikeline and at the same time refused to position any unit east of the canal, that intersected the island just west of the Zanddijkline. 'The French' did not concur Durands actions, reason why he was sacked a few days later.
**It is indeed better to ascribe the actions to the man responsible, Durand himself, and also mention his positioning a regiment on the northern shore.
*  There was absolutely no carpet bombing of Walcheren whatsoever! This is a myth. There were Ju-88 and some He-111 involved in air-raids, but those were pointed at military targets and therefore of a tactical nature. Vlissingen harbour was raided for its essential logistic value. Middelburg was mainly targetted by German artillery battalions positioned just east of the Sloe. Only an occasional bomb fell on Middelburg. French arty positions - as well as one Dutch arty battery - near Middelburg were targets to some bombers, but this does not by far qualify as carpet bombing.
**So, the fire that consumed a large part of the inner city was started by that artillery bombardment? And at most a few bomb loads hit Middelburg? That's indeed not the impression given by many books.
*** Indeed. It were at least two, possibly three, German arty battalions that shelled the city. This caused most of the devastation. Air-raids by the Luftwaffe on the city itself were not on (some hit the outskirts though), pin-point punishments of Dutch-Franco positions were. A few of those Ju-88 attacks were pointed at Dutch and French arty near Middelburg and particularly the French positions near the west side of the dam. I know of a book mentioning even 90 bombers raiding Middelburg! It is purely a well preserved myth, much copied since. 
* The gallant delaying action of Brigadier Deslaurens was obviously executed by a bit more than the General himself. Peculiar to put it this way.
**Obviously so. The sources are perhaps a bit too romantic on this point. Would "led by Deslaurens in person" do?
*** Certainly. Deslaurens was a memorable person and a galant exception amongst the French Generals. He should be credited for his courage and determination. But he was accompanied by quite some of his staff troops and some stranglers. 
Grebbegoos (talk) 00:14, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: And my thanks to you! Your knowledge on the subject, which far surpasses mine, has been an invaluable contribution to the article. I'll implement the last changes. It's true that there is an inherent weakness in the Wikipedia concept — but you have shown it can be turned into a strength!--MWAK (talk) 05:43, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  False info 'fighting in Zeeland' 

message: MWAK, I am sure you agree that your citation-references should be expanded with the actual authors. H.W. van den Doel, C + J. Schulten and P.M.J. de Koster wrote most of the chapters, Amersfoort and Kamphuis were mostly editors. Grebbegoos (talk) 22:51, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the problem is the book itself doesn't provide us with a preferred citation format. It also isn't mentioned with a full list of authors in bibliographies. On the other hand providing their names is very desirable. A tricky question.--MWAK (talk) 13:07, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I see. Those citations do not so much serve to indicate the author per se, nor the chapter, but purely refer to the book (and page) as such, of which the full title is mentioned more below. As Amerfoort is the first mentioned author, the short references to the book all become "Amersfoort" as they all refer to the same book.--MWAK (talk) 17:45, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

text: Yes, but the thing to keep in mind is that these footnotes are not full citations. They are simply a quick way of indicating the page number of the book cited, the real citation of which is given under "references". However, even in the real citation the co-authors are not mentioned for the reason I gave above: they are not part of a list of authors given by the book title page. Of course, it would in principle be possible to expand each note with a book chapter title plus specific author — but this would involve a lot of work! :o)--MWAK (talk) 10:50, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

text: Not stubborn. Just lazy ;o).--MWAK (talk) 17:59, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If you tell me how to get to the citation listing, I'll add the authors. Grebbegoos (talk) 10:54, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, each citation from Amersfoort should then begin with the author who wrote the chapter followed by an indication of the Chapter number. So. e.g. a citation from page 39 Chapter 2, written by H.W. van den Doel, should read as "Van den Doel, H.W. Chapter 2 in: Amersfoort (2005), p. 39". And so forth for every single citation from the book. The citations can be found in the normal editing window but are dispersed throughout the text. So you have to identify and find each separate citation by reading through the text, then manually change it. A very time-consuming business, given that it would have to be done almost two hundred times! If you are not determined to finish the job, it's better not the start the process at all because it would be useless half-done...--MWAK (talk) 14:44, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Authors / citations 

message: Today I changed the caption of the picture showing German soldiers crossing the damaged Sint Servaasbrug in Maastricht. The caption read (as it did before I changed it last time):
“Despite the destruction of the Wilhelminabrug, German troops passed this vital traffic hub relatively quickly. Photo taken 10 May 1940 in Maastricht”
'Hey', I thought when I read this in 2010: 'That is not the Wilhelminabrug (Wilhemina bridge) but the Sint Servaasbrug (Saint Servatius bridge)! Let's change it'. So I did.
However, User:Diannaa immediately undid my revision with the following comment:
“Undid revision 422484163 by Vunzmstr (talk)This pic shows the Servaasbrug, but that is not the bridge that was destroyed”  
I have to say I was a bit pissed off. If you look at the picture it is very clear that you see German troops trying to pass a (partly) demolished Saint Servatius bridge. The steel part of the bridge that was (and is) used to let large ships pass is clearly destroyed and is hanging down into the water. You can see the German soldiers descending and ascending to some kind of pontoon bridge using ladders. Therefore, your statement that the Saint Servatius bridge was not destroyed is, on the basis of the picture, incorrect. Should you have meant that the Saint Servatius bridge was not 'destroyed' but only 'damaged' in contrast to the Wilhelmina bridge that was 'destroyed' then that also would be incorrect. According to Dutch wikipedia, only the steel part of the Wilhelmina bridge was destroyed, which means that both the Saint Servatiusbridge and the Wilhelmina bridge were damaged/destroyed in exactly the same way however you want to call it.  
Now, my own knowledge of how the Germans passed Maastricht is limited. However, the picture and the caption as they currently read make no sense. First of all, what do you mean with 'this vital traffic hub'? Do you mean the Wilhelmina bridge? Then why show a picture of the Saint Servatiusbridge? Do you mean Maastricht? Then the caption is grammatically incorrect, and the caption still makes no sense. Was it only the destruction of the Wilhelminabridge that was relevant? Then why did German soldiers build a pontoon bridge within the Saint Servatius bridge? And again why show a picture of the Saint Servatius bridge at all? I am not saying that my original edit was perfect, but the caption clearly needs improvement, which is why you should not have just undone my edits without using my input to come to a better text. 
I changed it now as follows:
'Despite the destruction of the Wilhelminabrug and the Sint Servaasbrug (pictured) German troops passed Maastricht, a vital traffic hub, relatively quickly. Photo taken 10 May 1940 in Maastricht'
Thank you for not undoing this revision on the basis of misconceptions (but feel free to improve it) and for making editing Wikipedia such a pain in the ass. --Vunzmstr (talk) 16:00, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid I'm ultimately to blame for all this. Originally I mistook the St Servaas bridge for the Wilhelmina bridge :oS. My excuses!--MWAK (talk) 06:17, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

text: No need to excuse, everybody makes mistakes and that's not my issue. My issue is someone reverting my edits of a picture showing a destroyed Saint Servatius bridge on the basis that the Saint Servatius bridge was not destroyed. --Vunzmstr (talk) 13:37, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wilhelmina bridge - Saint Servatius bridge 

message: Yes, New Zealand gets its name from the Dutch province of Zeeland, but why not just use the correct Dutch name of Zeeland? Is the New Zealand connection the rationale for this? If you're going to use Zealand, you might as well go further and say 'Sealand'! Or why not call 'Zandvoort' 'Sandford'! Note that if one does a wikipedia search for 'Zealand' one is directed to an article about the Danish island of Sjælland. In that case the transliteration might make sense because of the difficulty of typing the æ ligature for English speaking users.1812ahill (talk) 21:33, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason for the spelling might be lost in the mists of time :) I have no objection to correcting it to Zeeland -- Dianna (talk) 00:18, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Then, based on your authority/ stature :) wrt. this article, I'll make the change.1812ahill (talk) 00:59, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

text: Made the change simply using the Notepad 'Replace...' feature and copy-repasting the entire text. Hope it worked OK.1812ahill (talk) 01:16, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "Zealand" is the correct English exonym of Zeeland.--MWAK (talk) 07:31, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Then we still have the Sjaelland/Zealand problem. Feel free to undo me btw.1812ahill (talk) 10:37, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the "Sjaeland problem" can be solved by correctly linking. The historical cause of the "Zealand" spelling of "Zeeland" was simply that in the 17th century "ea" was commonly pronounced as present "ay", as can still be seen from words as "bear". If no one objects, I'll make the change to Zealand.--MWAK (talk) 19:55, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I certainly don't object, MWAK. I just want the article to be correct. -- Dianna (talk) 03:16, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I'll change it :o).--MWAK (talk) 08:46, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry to open this up again, but I notice the Battle of Belgium article uses Zeeland (only twice), and the Battle of France does too (once), but Zeeland nonetheless. Sorry to pick nits on this issue, but perhaps in the interests of consistency... - it's my Dutchophilia ;)I guess one can argue either way on this one. I would say 'North Holland' rather than 'Noord Holland' in this article because of the compass direction 'North', but would say for instance 'Belarus' rather than 'White Russia' in an article on that topic. I dunno, Zealand just looks odd to me, but I'll defer.1812ahill (talk) 04:40, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Battle of France once used "Zealand" and might again :o).--MWAK (talk) 08:17, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is 'Zeeland' called 'Zealand' in this article? 

message: "It would be five years before the country was liberated, during which time over 300,000 Dutchmen died." This needs clarification. Does this include only people who died because of the occupation or all people who died during the occupation, i.e. people who died of natural causes? Surtsicna (talk) 17:13, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. I'll be a bit more precise.--MWAK (talk) 19:51, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for reacting so quickly! Surtsicna (talk) 20:44, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  MWAK, you did not edit the number, so I will. The number of casualties from the war, including genocide victims, was 210.000. CBS 1948 figure and still considered accurate Grebbegoos (talk) 14:01, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you! I'd quite forgotten...--MWAK (talk) 16:44, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  300,000 Dutchmen 

message: The article repeatedly refers to the Allied Powers (or Allies) by the term "Entente" or "Entente Cordial." The Entente Cordial was the term for an unofficial understanding between France and Great Britain in 1904 in which Britain made it clear that they would not remain neutral in the event of a major war between France and Germany. It became substantively obsolete with the outbreak of the First World War. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:46, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, in contemporary sources "Entente" was the normal name of the Anglo-French coalition during the entire First World War and the concept was revived at the outbreak of the Second World War. Of course, in June 1940 it was quickly abandoned :o). It is useful here as a distinction between the initial Anglo-French coalition of which the Dutch and Belgians were not part and the later "Allies" that did not include Vichy France but encompassed the majority of independent nations. I agree though, that the redirecting is somewhat confusing.--MWAK (talk) 08:07, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Entente should be Allies 

message: Hello everyone, this article is well-written and documented, so first of all, kudos to all of you for your outstanding work.
However, I find the tone in some paragraphs too critical, and clearly subjective. For exemple, see the sentence : "It simply could not stage a major offensive, let alone execute manoeuvre warfare.[64]". The ironical formulation in here doesn't abide to Wikipedia's standards of neutrality. Although some would argue here about the "storytelling approach", this kind of writings are more appropriate for Quora than Wikipedia. Bias editoring and insinuations shouldn't corrupt the factual richness of this article.
Hence, I think someone should correct some sentences for a more neutral tone by keeping the substance and only reseting the p.o.v.
Greetings.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.12.42.143 (talk) 16:26, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the statements reflect the sources. These sources in turn are not partisan but reflect the consensus among military historians. Nobody claims e.g. that the Dutch army could in May 1940 have staged a major offensive. Making this, rather relevant, fact clear to the reader is not a matter of irony but veracity. Of course, if you order the information into a coherent whole and expose it in a rational way, the result makes for a good narrative. See it as a benefit :o). This matter-of-fact approach is also the opposite of "bias" and "insinuation". We would be biased if we suggested that the Dutch army was not poorly equipped and trained. And we don't insinuate that it had a limited fighting capacity, we plainly state it so.--MWAK (talk) 17:24, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I think both of you have a point but you might consider avoiding adjectives and adverbs, when describing what the RS write. "It simply could not stage a major offensive, let alone execute manoeuvre warfare.[64]" How about: The Dutch army could not conduct an offensive or manoeuvre warfare (possibly "a battle of manoeuvre"). The words in italics seem to me to be redundant and offensives are big things so major and minor are pointless except for comparison and let alone execute is hyperbole. If that is what the RS wrote it teeters on plagiarism too unless rendered as a quotation. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 10:34, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Adjectives and adverbs are part of normal language; we can't do without them. I admit the sentence is a bit rhetorical, but at least it gives a clear picture of the situation. I we would say: "It could not stage an offensive, nor carry out manoeuvre warfare", the reader might wonder "What? Not the tiniest offensive? And how do offensives and a war of movement compare in difficulty?". We can rephrase it but at the cost of longer sentences and a weaker style.--MWAK (talk) 16:12, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

text: On the contrary, we can resist the temptation to sink to the level of journalists and write in sentences. We should trust the gentle reader to let us know if they are in doubt about meaning; inferring what a hypothetical reader might think is projection and leads to pleonasm. My draft was shorter.... An offensive is a big thing, there aren't any tiny ones, they are attacks or raids. An offensive cannot exist without movement. Keith-264 (talk) 17:26, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: We inevitably project. So let's do a good job at it! But you're right about there being no tiny offensives.--MWAK (talk) 17:46, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

text: Eythenkew! Keith-264 (talk) 18:30, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-neutral tone 

message: Especially to User:MWAK: why would we anglicise "Zeeland" to "Zealand" when the article and entire rest of the wiki clearly use "Zeeland"? I don't understand this unique treatment. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 11:03, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Zealand is the English exonym for Zeeland. This is the English branch of Wikipedia. So we use Zealand. As Dutchmen we should of course be proud that the English have special exonyms for our topography. The reaction: "Those Brits can't spell" should be overcome. Most pages mentioning Zeeland are of course written by Dutchmen who are ignorant of English exonyms. A sad thing...--MWAK (talk) 16:13, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you experienced the minefield of Belgian place-names? British military historians use traditional terms which are often French. Wiki editors like me copy them, ignorant of post-1945 spelling revisions (Ieper?), which can cause unrest when Belgians read the articles. ;o)Keith-264 (talk) 22:51, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Zealand" 

message: German Ju 52 losses in the entire battle amounted to about 250, representing 50% of the fleet's strength. - who says that ? Ju 52 losses in the "entire Netherlands campaign" (?) amounted to about 250 ? Are there meant 250 total losses ? Hardly credible. Wouldn't that mean, around, at least, 2.000 fatalities connected with Ju 52 transports ? --129.187.244.19 (talk) 08:45, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: No, because many planes were wrecked or destroyed when landing on the airfields, when these were retaken by the Dutch army, or by crash landings in the polder landscape.--MWAK (talk) 12:53, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

text: I now see how the sentence could be very deceptive, as it suggests that the Wehrmacht Ju 52 materièl strength in May 1940 would be about five hundred, while it was in fact above fifteen hundred. I'll rewrite.--MWAK (talk) 13:53, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ju 52 losses ? 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
----
* :Battle of the Netherlands → 
* :Invasion of the Netherlands → 
– By far the WP:COMMONNAME, see NGRAMS or Google Scholar results Although there have been other invasions of the Netherlands' predecessor states, none of them is called "invasion of the Netherlands", so I believe this one is the WP:PT. Otherwise, it could be moved to Invasion of the Netherlands (1940) or German invasion of the Netherlands (which is still more common than "battle" according to both NGRAMS and Google Scholar.) — (t · c) buidhe 15:24, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Note: Invasion of the Netherlands titles a page with significant content and so is ineligible as a target "new" title in a move request unless it is also proposed to be renamed. This request has been altered to reflect that fact. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 11:52, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. 1672 probably a better claim. —Brigade Piron (talk) 08:16, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 29 May 2021 

message: The infobox reads that it took 1 week, but the article suggests it was complete on  27 May? GlobalReference221 (talk) 12:36, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the fighting with Dutch forces was over after eight days, but only on 27 May the total Dutch European territory had been occupied.--MWAK (talk) 07:20, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Well its called German invasion of the Netherlands but the invasion German invasion of the Netherlands was complete on 27 May, isn't this misleading, or am i missing something? GlobalReference221 (talk) 18:35, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This is one of the unhappy consequences of changing the title from the original Battle of the Netherlands...--MWAK (talk) 06:41, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''1 Week''