Talk:Augusto Pinochet/Archive 5

message: Is the assertion of U.S. backing for the coup misleading or controversial in Augusto Pinochet/intro (succinct version), even in the presence of the footnote?
:This is loaded phrasing.  I do not consider it misleading, but the simple fact that this discussion is taking place is proof that it is controversial. Eclecticology 17:07, 2004 May 19 (UTC)
::Ec, this is asking whether or not the assertion is controversial, as opposed to an undisputable fact, not whether U.S. actions were 'controversial'. 172
[IMO "even in the presence of a footnote" should not be in the question, because some of us do not want a footnote even if we think it goes some way towards clearing up the NPOV issue. Cadr ]
Yes:
# By 172's own definition (see the discussion in section 10) the possible meanings of "backed" include "aided", so the word is misleading. 172 should also note that readers of this article are unlikley to look up every word they read in a dictionary, and should take the context of the word into account (as VV points out in his previous comment). Cadr
#:My own definition to "back" (v) is American Heritage's, which is to provide support, assistance, or encouragement for (a contending force). It does not necessarily entail the provision of "aid." Cadr is putting words in my mouth; I said "or" as opposed to "and" when I has written the word "aid" once (very hastily). 172 11:49, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another poll 

message: All this talk of settling the editing issues by polling and declaring "winners" is silly. As Michael pointed out (more politely!), that's not what polls are for. Well, I'm telling you that the official policy of this website is NPOV.
If a fact or value (or anything else important) is in dispute in an article, the Wikipedia is not supposed to settle the issue. Rather, it REPORTS WHAT THE VARIOUS SIDES SAY. Sorry for shouting, but some contributors on this page just don't get it.
Including a phrase like "US-backed coup" implies that Wikipedia endorses the view that the coup was backed by the US (whatever that means or entails). Since there is CLEARLY a dispute among us contributors about whether (or how much) the US "backed the coup", the Wikipedia cannot come out and say flatly that the US backed the coup. 
Rather, the article must report what various historians and other observers have said. I'd be happy to see something like:
*All historians, except for a few right-wing wackos, agree that the US backed the coup.
(Okay, wackos is a bit extreme, but you know what I mean: we attribute every point of view (POV) to the advocated of that POV.)
It might be a bit more polished to say:
*Historians and others disagree over how much support the US gave to Pinochet. Joe Schmoe says the US "backed the coup by supplying arms, intelligence, money, and assurances of friendly future relations." Sam Shady, a known CIA operative, claims that the US had no part in the coup, aside from making public statements amounting to a claim that Allende was destroying the Chilean economy and driving the country toward dictatorship. (Note that these are made-up examples of the kinds of quotations we need to find and put into the article, so that all POV is properly attributed.) --Uncle Ed 14:06, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don't be silly 

message: * I read quite a bit about Pinochet, Allende and Chile's economy in the 60s and 70s (and not just "opinions" but economic data and scientific analysis). People who say I have "visibly no understanding" and vote "ideologically" just because I happen not to agree with them, are making a productive discussion hard.
**VV The "no understanding" was in reference to being aware of what we had been talking about on this Talk page.
* I am not "buddy of 172", random or otherwise, nor was I "brought in" by him. Saying so without verification or proof reflects quite negatively on VeryVerily's way of argumentation in my opinion. If I understood the principles of Wikipedia correctly, everyone knowledgeable can try to contribute to the discussion...
**VV I did not say this.  I said that some were buddies of 172, and they were.  You are falling for 172 smear tricks. VV 09:24, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personal attacks, revert wars and ideological bias 

message: If you put the pov tag back on the article this is the place to give your reasons. if you dont give any rerasons here I will remove it as we cant make this article more NPOV unless we know what is POV. It doesnt appear POV but instead balanced to me, SqueakBox 23:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV tag 

message: Please be familiar with WP:NPOV before editing. I dont particularly like Pinochet but find myself defending him against editors who are filled with hatred towards him and appear not to care about our POV policy but only about putting their own anti Pinochet views in the article, SqueakBox 16:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV editors 

message: I'd like to see references on all Pinochet's quotes. I didn't search for every single one of them but I couldn't find those I searched for. I don't think it's appropriete to have unsourced quotes here, not to mention there is Wikiquote for those things!--Pethr 01:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I think it's the right thing to do. I would copy it to wikiquotes if it had any sense of credibility but I rather think that someone completely made it up to cast negative light on A.P. Well if the light can be any more negative - Pinochet is one of the creatures where I have really hard time reverting edits which reflect more the bad side. Anyway, it survived too long! We have to be more careful about additions to this article.--Pethr 02:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think they were made up, I recognized a few of them. The quote about Human Rights being a Marxist invention was given in a CNN en Español interview in 90s, for example. They're probably hard to find because they were given in Spanish originally. However, I also agree with their removal. Maybe a link to WikiQuotes should be included instead; I havent checked but I'm sure there will be some quotes of his there. GringoInChile 02:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They seem to be a translated version of a selection of quotes from this page in the Spanish Wikiquote. GringoInChile 02:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great work, It would still be good to source them and then put them on Wikiquotes. I don't understand a word in Spanish, so may be someone else will volunteer. May be it will be pretty easy to find sources to most of them in Spanish language media.--Pethr 02:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didnt think they were fake, just inappropriate to have so many though one or 2 would do no harm, SqueakBox 15:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotes 

message: Is Augusto Pinochet Molina, a grandson, not relevant to be included in the See also section? -- Zorro CX 12:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The grandson 

message: It does not advance NPOV to present this claim as base fact, particularly when it is done by misrepresenting a source.
*The cited article does not say that the purpose of Condor was to save the country from communism
*It does not explain how Condor might have advanced that goal.
*With regard to what the article says, it is the opinion of one reporter.
*If people want to learn about Condor and whom it targeted, they can follow the link to its Wikipedia article.
Gazpacho 18:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I second that. "NPOV" does not mean "uncontroversial", and it doesn't mean "avoid unpleasant details" either. We are not writing an encyclopedia for kindergarteners who need to be shielded from unpleasantness. Pinochet is best known for the well-attested Operation Condor, mass killings, and mass torture in most of the world. This is not even particularly controversial. There are plenty of sources on this cited already, and there are plenty more available if you type "augusto pinochet" into Google. The intro needs to reflect this rather than try to whitewash his reputation. As I said before, SqueakBox, present just one reputable source that argues that Pinochet was not a dictator or that his regime did not conduct mass murder and torture. (But you won't find any, because even his staunchest supporters don't argue those points; they try to justify his actions as unpleasant but necessary instead, which the intro does mention, in the interests of NPOV.) Also, you keep referencing other articles as though their content was somehow directly relevant to what we ought to include in this article. If you have an issue with Adolf Hitler, take it up at Talk:Adolf Hitler, not here. Kwertii 21:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with SqueakBox. Walton monarchist89 16:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "to save the country from communism" 

message: The unsourced statement that Pinochet left behind...concentration camps seems to me to be POV, unless a source for it can be obtained. Although it can obviously be proven that Pinochet had detention camps/prisons for political prisoners, the phrase "concentration camps" is specific and pejorative, due to its associations with Nazism and genocide. For all his faults, Pinochet did not commit genocide - his regime executed less than 3,000, and did not single out any specific ethnic group. So it seems to be left-wing POV to deliberately use a phrase with Nazi connotations in relation to Pinochet. If no one comes up with a citation for the statement, I will delete it outright. Walton monarchist89 16:25, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Marmaduque 17:46, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sadly, some user seems to think it's OK for them to revert this edit without discussing it on the talk page. I will continue to change "concentration camps" to "prison camps" until they provide explanation and/or a source. Walton monarchist89 18:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree too. This article has persistent problems from lefty POV pushers and this appears to be another example. Some people seem unable to aaccept that the rules of sourcing and NPOV also ap[ply here, SqueakBox 18:28, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concentration camps? 

message: Daft question to most probably, but anyone?
Right-wing, anti-communist, SqueakBox 16:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hard to say. Pinochet was a soldier who did not care much for politics right until the coup. He can be considered anti-communist. In the end he was an economic libertarian, but during the economic crisis in 1981 he briefly employed Keynesian economics. His governemnt was definitely authoritarian at first in the sense that it restricted some personal liberties, bu by the end of his government I'd say 1987-1990, there gradually was more free speech and other such liberties. Pinochet manained he supported democracy but that the economic ruin brought about by Allende's government meant that it had to be suspended until the country could recover. So, yes, in the end, he was a right-winger. Marmaduque 17:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What political ideology was he? 

message: The congress WAS dissolved in 1973 immediately after the coup. This is history, you can see http://www.bcn.cl/pags/legislacion/leyes/resena_const.htm (National Congress Library) a brief history of the congress, where you can see: 
"el 11 de septiembre de 1973, se produce un golpe de estado que significa el quiebre institucional de Chile, estableciéndose una Junta Militar encabezada por el general Augusto Pinochet, quién suspende las garantías individuales contenidas en la Constitución del 25, aún cuando se declara que ésta continua vigente, por otra parte, se disuelve el Congreso Nacional."
(im working on a translation)
Specifically, under the decree number 27 dated september 21 1973 (published officially september 24 1973), the congress was dissolved.
Only one more thing: According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictator, "[...]In modern usage, the term "dictator" is generally used to describe a leader who holds an extraordinary amount of personal power, especially the power to make laws without effective restraint by a legislative assembly[...]". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.73.59.100 (talk) 03:55, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree on this one. Usually it goes like this: 1) Find credible source preferably at least one in English 2) write paragraph about your subject in appropriate section of the article 3) if it is important enough mention it in article summary/introduction. Thank you.--Pethr 04:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dissolution of Congress in September 1973 after the coup 

message: I doubt very much that this article should be included in the France WikiProject; there's hardly any relevant connection apart from his surname. I propose that the tag be removed. GringoInChile 17:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why WikiProject France?!? 

message: Regardless if the word dictator is a weasal word i think it merritt includsion that there is an ongoing debate in Chile between the left and the right as into whether Pinochet was a dictator or president with the right (UDI RN) and with the left (Concertacion, Communist Party, Humanist Party) particularly the right saying he was never dictator and saying he was a legitimate president and the left saying that in modern times only presidents that are directly elected in free elections are presidents in the modern sense and that pinochet was a dictator. that last part was said by the head of the socialist party in an interview with TVChile.
:I agree, in fact that's a perfect summary of my solution to the earlier debate. Rather than labelling him an unquestioned 'dictator', he should be described as 'President of the Military Junta', and it should also be said that there is a debate between his supporters and opponents over whether or not he was a dictator. As you say, sources can be provided for both sides. Walton monarchist89 12:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i agree completelty, all points of view should be included since this is wikipediaCholga 23:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arhuement over the term dictator 

message: I think that the word "dictatorship" is very lacking in this article, i means who's ever heard of a coup d'etat that led to military rule which is not considered a "dictatorship" someone, a student for example may type in "Chilean Dictatorship" or "Pinochet Dictatorship" , the notable period where no presidents where elected nor did the congress convened between 1979 and 1990 when before 1979 and after 1990 things where handled much differantly, might be confused.
:Well, if you have trouble finding examples, try reading about the Government Junta of Chile (1925), it may enlighten you. Mel Romero 02:10, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dictatorship 

message: If you find any of the following links necessary please discuss them here before readding them to the article. Please see WP:EL and WP:MOS-L. Also please remember that many of them are duplicates, some of them are in refs already (or should be in refs or nowhere) and one of them isn't link at all.:)--Pethr 04:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed links 

message: It's bad style to continue writing Chicago Boys when the government, Pinochet, etc. could also be used.  Also, the language of this section was heavily biased against Pinochet and misleading.  We should avoid POV terms and phrases like "devastated" and "horrible economic policy" for example.  Also, economic indicators and benchmarks mean nothing out of context.  Understanding the economy of Chile before Pinochet is a prerequisite for understanding it under Pinochet.
(JoeCarson 13:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is especially true, because of the ongoing controversy over the propriety of Pinochet's CIA-backed coup rests to a great degree on the economic performance of Allende's socialism vs. Pinochet's reforms. Cuba's health system is a similar benchmark, with fans and foes making contradictory claims. (See Healthcare in Cuba). --Uncle Ed 11:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Economic Policy 

message: Why wasn't this article included in the category of neo-Nazis? I read in the book "Is fascism dead of alive?" that Pinochet explicitly praised Hitler and Mein Kampf and other neo-fascist leaders like Le Pen are also fans of Pinochet.
He may have expressed praise for Hitler (I've never heard that) but his policies were quite different from the Nazis and other fascist groups.JoeCarson 14:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neo-Nazi 

message: Did Chile sever relations with the U.S.S.R., or did the U.S.S.R. sever relations with Chile? 71.193.93.176 23:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The USSR broke relations with Chile (as also did Cuba and the Eastern Block countries) before the end of September 1973. Probably, given more time, the break would have been initiated by the military government, but that is not certain since the military mantained diplomatic relations with China.  --Mel Romero 06:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pinochet and the Soviet Union 

message: I've added a POV tag to this section. This section should foremostly be a summary of material that is to be presented in Chile_under_Pinochet#Economy__and_Free_Market_reforms. What and when policies were enacted, some economic indicators, and some rudimentary discussion of how these policies were recieved, that is what to be added in this article. The current discussion on poverty, which I left in, is one-sided (doesn't even have page numbers), and probably more suitable for the main article. Intangible2.0 03:28, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  economics section POV tag