Help talk:Contents/Archive 2

message: I would just like to give a big thanks to all those who have worked so tirelessly on the Help section. It may not be perfect, but over the last few months I have found it to be very helpful. Dustimagic 20:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Very helpful 

message: I think you're moving too fast with the "round corners".  It just doesn't look right to me, as it deviates from the standard Wikipedia style of headings.  And, it looks worse on Internet Explorer.  I think the round corners issue needs much more discussion on the talk page here and on the help portal draft, as it's a very bold change.  It also needs more discussion elsewhere across Wikipedia before this goes too far.  —--Aude (talk | contribs) 21:09, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have any suggestions right now.  Not sure if you've checked out Wikipedia:Help_portal, which Gareth Aus and others have worked on?  I think these efforts all need to be coordinated more, in the design, style, and layout, to give Wikipedia some more consistency.  I left a message on the talk page there (copied below):
Maybe it would be more *usable* to just list the main help topics and subtopics, with links to more in-depth help pages.  Take a look at how Amazon does their help page.  They have headings (w/links) for "Ordering", "Viewing & Changing Orders", "Shipping & Delivery", etc.  Amazon makes it just so easy to find answers on their help pages (though dealing w/ their customer service staff isn't so helpful).  Another good example is Ebay, and how they break up their help pages by topic/function (e.g. "New to eBay: Registration | How to buy | How to sell | more...").  
Let me know if you want me to mock-up something for the help portal, and work with you on improving the help pages.  And, kudos for taking on the task (and the work on the portal pages).  It is indeed very important if we're to implement the main page redesign, that the redesign goes along with improved help pages and browse pages, to help people navigate through Wikipedia. —--Aude (talk | contribs) 21:20, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

text: —--Aude (talk | contribs) 00:15, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I think chopping it up too much wastes the user's time (too many clicks).  The information should be one-click or maybe two clicks away.  I usually have a hard time on eBay finding the answer to anything.  The point of having a table of contents, which is what the main help page is, is to consolidate all the topics in one place where they can be conveniently perused.  Go for it! 03:16, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Let us see.  Show us a screen capture.  The text shows up just fine on both IE and Firefox on my computer.  Go for it! 03:16, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I just reverted the round corners.  I just don't think it works here.  They're out of place (too bold and different from the standard Wikipedia style).  Though, I also think it's worth working on improving the help page.  I think that's what Wikipedia:Help portal is for.  --Aude 03:51, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Round corners

message: I have long used Mozilla Firefox (and have had the latest version for weeks) but today I have been having problems with images not showing up, rather getting URL links in their place.  I don't know (and don't know how to find out) whether this is a wider problem or simply my own.  Thoughts?  --TJive 04:03, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I don't think it's just you.  I'm experiencing the same problem with some images. —--Aude (talk | contribs) 04:06, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a relief--at least on my own part.  I actually just pulled up IE specifically for this purpose.  It gives those red "X" symbols in the corner in the place of images which are displayed whenever the images are unable to load.  Any idea what is wrong or where to look to resolve it?  --TJive 04:12, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I am having the same problem. In Firefox I see the image tag Image:Sample jpg.but no image and click on it shows only this  been like that for a day or so.--Dakota ~ ε 02:34, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yesterday, it was a problem with the Commons server being down.  But that was resolved.  Is it just one particular image that you're having problems with?  If so, is it the specific link you put here?  If so, the link has a typo and should be :Image:Sample.jpg.  If you were just giving Sample as an example, what is the image that you're having problems with?  --Aude (talk | contribs) 02:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

text: It was an image on a random page. I go through them sometimes to find typo's and do some cleanup. I used sample only as an example. I have had the image problem on a few pages. I will go through my history and see if I can locate it.--Dakota ~ ε 03:23, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the image was deleted.  I tried adding another Image link to something that doesn't exist, and it too was a blue link.  --Aude (talk | contribs) 03:53, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: yes, I think most of the time is image has been deleted or has some copyright issue. Anyway, It's surely not the browser's fault.Unixer 14:19, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Help with viewing images

message: The various diacritic characters, which I use very often in editing, located below the edit screen for insertion into articles, are mostly missing.  Who has made this (bad) change and when will it be changed back so I can get back to editing?  Caron, Greek letters, hacek, Chinese pinyin tone marks, etc. are all missing.  Badagnani 09:02, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing diacritics below edit screen 

message: I searched for icons for the help page until my eyes glazed over.  I found quite a few, but there are still some headings that need icons.  Anyone who wants to give it a shot please do so!!!  Here are some icon list links:
*Nuvola icons
*open clip art library
*icons at the wikimedia commons
*Collected icons
--Go for it! 10:08, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Icons for help pages should be small (max. 2000 bytes) and GIFs (compatible with old browsers). JPG might be also okay, if it's small, but in my collection of old browsers two can't handle JPG, three can't handle inline PNG, and one can't handle icons at all, because it's a text browser (no serious issue, it get's the alt text). The worst is my favourite browser, it has a plugin for PNG, but replaces inline PNG with an ugly internal "broken image" icon garbling any text next to it. -- Omniplex 15:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A call for icons! 

message: I personally like the Nuvolas. Compact & shiny. Here, I'll show you. Her Pegship 21:04, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Icons for help pages should be small (max. 2000 bytes) and GIFs (compatible with old browsers). JPG might be also okay, if it's small, but in my collection of old browsers two can't handle JPG, three can't handle inline PNG, and one can't handle icons at all, because it's a text browser (no serious issue, it get's the alt text). The worst is my favourite browser, it has a plugin for PNG, but replaces inline PNG with an ugly internal "broken image" icon garbling any text next to it. -- Omniplex 15:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Icon vote

message: :originally posted at user talk:Go for it!#Awesome work on Help:Contents!
I really admire what you've done with Help:Contents. Between the graphics you made and the hassle of making a new page, I'm tempted to just move Help:Contents to Wikipedia:Help portal and forget about a redesign. And to think, I helped come up with that idea! (scroll down a little from pages? here). Anyway, great job.HereToHelp (talk) 03:08, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  yeah holy crow this is beautiful now!  A work of art!  Great job, everyone!  JamieJones  talk 00:54, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Awesome work on [[Help:Contents]]!

message: Okay, after all my gushing about round corners...I actually like the boxes now. I think this scheme would actually be great for the Main Page as well, either as layout or as a skin. Thanks for filling in the icons!
I would like to ask whether anyone else thinks the FAQ should be at the top of the second column, in order to be immediately visible. Seems to me that's the perfect parallel to the first first-column subject. Her Pegship 05:17, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another 2c from me 

message: There's only 5 more to go! --15:50, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The icons from the subject headings do not provide any new information-- they're useless. But the ones underneath the headers do look rather nice. Ashibaka tock 16:24, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wow, that's a lot of icons! 

message: This page is massive, and the TOC should remain on it.  Removing it takes away from the usability of it (people can more easily find things with the TOC) and means that some people have to scroll through 6 screens of information.  For mobile users it would be virtually impossible to use, too.  violet/riga (t) 16:58, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A custom TOC could be created as in WP:FA.--cj | talk 17:14, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed (incidentally, it was me that created that TOC).  violet/riga (t) 17:16, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (I know - I was most impressed ;-)--cj | talk 17:37, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I've adjusted the layout to try this alternative placement for the TOC.  Check it out and let me know what you think.  --Go for it! 18:03, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  TOC 

message: I think the page looks a lot cleaner and easier to read with a minimum of bullets.  With everything bulleted it looks very busy and distracting.  So I removed most of the bullets.  Comments welcome. --Go for it! 17:38, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bullets? 

message: The Help page (even before the redesign) is too big. But before the redesign, the list of plain links was very easy to scan: moving it into two columns with lots of extra stuff makes it a bit more difficult to find the exact section of Help that you want.
Perhaps we should take a page from Wikipedia:Contact us and make things in a more "troubleshooter" style? If we want a page to look nice, it should be a portal with more selective linking. If we want it to be comprehensive, visual eyecandy, in my opinion, should be avoided. — Ambush Commander(Talk) 19:31, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page is too long 

message: What has happened to the appearance of user contributions. I can make neither head or tails of them.--Dakota ~ ε 12:05, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Contributions appearance 

message: I can't get the columns in the content box to line up vertically (the top 2 items should be side-by-side).  I don't know how to do this.  Please help.
--Go for it! 04:34, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Someone please adjust the vertical alignment on the columns in the Contents box

message: In Internet Explorer, the icons show up with white backgrounds.  In Firefox, the background for the icons is transparent, and so matches the surrounding background (light purple).
Does anyone know how to fix this so that it the icons appear correctly in Internet Explorer?
--Go for it! 05:41, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See also:Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 135#Icons on the Help page need help. -- Ec5618 22:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Icon whitespace

message: I think the help pages need to highlight key topics and policies that new users should be aware of... e.g. NPOV, Citing sources, no advertising/spam, no copyright violations (esp. with images), how to choose licensing tags, etc.  I takes considerable time and effort to follow up on new users, deleting spam, copyright violations, etc.  So, it would really be nice for these key topics to be easier to find and not drowned out in the massive list o flinks on the help page. --Aude (talk | contribs) 02:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How about making more effort to promote the simplified ruleset?--HereToHelp (talk • contribs) 03:15, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's a very helpful page.  Though, I didn't really know about that one... because it's one of so many links.  --Aude (talk | contribs) 03:36, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New users

message: While trying to find certain items within the Help: namespace, I had to keep hitting links.  Most of the pages in the namespace are linked to from pages and/or link names that one wouldn't think a particular policy, guideline, or other help topic would be under.  I had to click 9 times to find Wikipedia:Notability.  Pages such as Wikipedia:Deletion policy and Wikipedia:Undeletion policy I had to click 47 and 49 times, respectively.  The navigation for this set of pages with policies, guidelines, and other helpful information needs to be redesigned, and the use of obscure link names needs to stop.  I'd never have thought to click Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion just to find, almost randomly, somewhere in the text a link to Wikipedia:Deletion policy.  (Lady Serena 03:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If I was given a list of all the help pages, I could probably build a navigation map with logical titles, and logical locations for all the content.  It might be a bit of a challenge, but it'd be fun. :3  (Lady Serena 02:17, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too Many Clicks / Obscure Navigation 

message: It isn't working right as you can see from this when I sign.--Jayla hi 04:02, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See Wikipedia:How to fix your signature – ABCDe✉ 17:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The signature option can be very insidious. Try T&E'ing it. It takes longer, but can be fun. Eluchil 10:20, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: How can I fix my signature

message: I just realised why I like this page so much, and thought some of the thoughts I came up with might be helpful. I think people treat help pages in two ways: (1) There are those who, while editing, think of something they need to learn how to do, and want to be able to look this up. They don't want to scan through a comprehensive list, or try to remember where they read something. They just want to be able to ask a question or _search_ for the answer. (2) Then there are those, like me, who salivate over a set of help pages that looks comprehensive, and look forward to sitting down and reading the whole lot. Then, several months later, while editing, they remember, and decide to try out, that little trick they read about in those help pages. Carcharoth 17:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why I like this page... 

message: I confirmed my Wikipedia e-mail, but there are no encyclopedia or help articles on the subject of how to access it.  An article appears to be necessary.  Lottamiata 02:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How does the e-mail work? 

message: Whenever I try to upload an image either here or at the nCommons, it always shows this message: '"." is not an allowed file format. See Commons:File types for more information.' It's a perfectly normal .jpg file, why isn't it uploading?
--Le Grey Intellectual 14:28, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  File type. 

message: WP:HELP redirects here, and yet this article has no link to the Help Desk and reference desk.  It's shameful!  I've added the links, but the page was pretty before, and now it's not.  I guess functionality has to come before prettiness though. -lethe talk [ +] 20:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Rather than just dumping an eye sore and leaving, you could stick around and fix it.  --Go for it! 01:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I noticed the box you placed on the Help Menu page.  I've folded its contents into the Menu, as Asking Questions, and removed the box from the menu page.  If you have any questions, please drop me a note.  --Go for it! 20:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said on Help talk:Contents, WP:HELP has to have a link to Wikipedia:Help desk.  A complete newbie does not know that a table of contents page on asking questions will lead him there.  It has to be on the page explicitly.  Therefore I revert. -lethe talk [ +] 23:40, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

text: A complete newbie doesn't even know it exists, but if he has questions, he'll certainly click on a link that says "Ask questions".  And there he'll find the Help Desk.  Your arguments are emotional, not rational.  If something "has" to be a certain way, then there should be good reasons for the necessity.  The transformation of the help page to a menu page was well thought out.  Now you are trying to turn it back into a help page, while all the help stuff is still underneath it on subpages, including the same content you've dumped on the help page.  Furthermore, there have been no complaints by newbies, and the Help Desk is going strong.  --Go for it! 01:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Like I said, I can understand why you don't like the box I added.  It's not as pretty as the table of contents, and it doesn't fit in with the form and function as a table of contents.  However, my position, which I'll state here again, is that as long as WP:HELP redirects here, we have to have the help desk and the reference desk here.  And not as another table of contents entry either.  Imagine the scenario: newbie needs help, newbie types "help" into the search box, newbie sees a general purpose article on help but helpfully there is a link at the top for wikipedia help.  Now if my links are there, newbie has to load a third page to get his help.  With your system, newbie has to know that the table of contents entry labelled "asking questions" will take him to where he needs to go to get help with dispute resolution, then he has to load a third and finally a fourth page before getting his help.  Unacceptable.  -lethe talk [ +] 23:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The obvious solution is to change the redirect, but at the moment, the server problems are preventing me.  Stay tuned.  -lethe talk [ +] 01:01, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have combined both sections of links in a more aesthetic manner.  Hopefully this will serve the newbies well. --Aude (talk | contribs) 01:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  no help desk? 

message: I got logged out without konowing! How did it do that? I didn't click on 'log out'. Do you know what happened?RAcHeL 00:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly your browser cookie got deleted. That would cause one to spontaneously log out. --Quiddity 20:41, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:   I got logged out... 

message: I'm very confused about the help pages that seem to be hosted on meta (such as Help:Recent changes).  I was referred here from the Help Desk.  These pages all seem to be about Mediawiki, rather than about Wikipedia.  Their audience seems to be "a Mediawiki server administrator".  They use terms that are inappropriate for enduser help; an enduser doesn't need to hit the word "Mediawiki" at any point.  They often talk about typing in certain URLs or designing style sheets.
But I can't fix these help pages to be En-Wikipedia-specific, because any version here will be clobbered by the Meta version.  Ideally, I would want Help:Recent changes to be enduser documentation, and something like Help:Mediawiki/Recent changes or Help:Recent changes (technical) to have the technical details.  Or even just a link to the meta page from the en page.
So, I have a couple of questions:
#Is there a page (here or on Meta) which explains why these help pages exist on multiple servers, who they're designed for, and why and how they get copied over?
#How do we decouple the page here from the page on Meta?
#Is it a good idea if we can?  Or do I need to start a separate page for enduser documentation about Recent Changes?
I feel strongly that we need some enduser-focused stuff about these features: look at Help:Recent changes and imagine that you were a new user led there from Help:Contents->Tracking changes->Recent changes.  We should be able to have Wikipedia-specific information there, because not all of the Mediawiki projects are set up identically.  So what's the best place for me to put that? -- Creidieki 00:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia specific content goes into Template:Ph:Recent_changes, an edit link is in the section "Wikipedia specific info" of Help:Recent changes here on Wikipedia. Stuff in this template won't be replaced by the master copy from Meta. -- Omniplex 15:16, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help pages hosted on meta 

message: I noticed today that the front page has help desk links.  I do believe that links for getting help should be very easily accessible, and that is the reason for putting those links on the front page.  I still think it is unacceptable to not have direct links on WP:HELP, I tried adding again, using the main page template, and Go for it reverted my addition again.  Therefore, as we discussed above, I've changed WP:HELP and Wikipedia:Help so they no longer redirect here.  Now they are pages with links to those help desks.  It also has a link to this page, so people who want to read tables of contents can do so, if they don't need more immediate help.  -lethe talk [ +] 19:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess I disagree with your philosophy of reducing the load for volunteers instead of making things easier for people seeking assistance.  I understand that people can find the help desk by following the links in the table of contents, but in my opinion, this is not good enough.  Those links have to be immediately visible.  -lethe talk [ +] 14:30, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  no help desk links 

message: The streamlined menu is really easy to use and follow.  Adding explanations to the menu items obscures them and makes the menu harder to read.  It is much easier to just click on on the items to see what's there than wade through a verbose menu.  We can also adjust the menu items themselves to make them more obvious, if they are too vague.  --Go for it! 12:20, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: KISS?  (Keep it super simple) 

message: H:C is pretty short.  Though since the help page is on the main menu, and therefore its link is on every page of Wikipedia, it begs the question of why have a shortcut at all? --Go for it! 14:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: WP shortcuts are for Wikipedia namespace pages.  It stands to reason that H shortcuts should be for Help namespace pages. -lethe talk [ +] 14:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Isn't one shortcut enough?

message: Go for it, you say "I also don't understand why you've set up a redundant questions page".  The reason is this: whatever page resides at Wikipedia:Help, the page newbies arrive at when they type "help" into the search box, has to have links to help desk and reference desk.  You are unwilling to have such links on Help:Contents.  Therefore I stopped the redirect from Wikipedia:Help to Help:Contents so the help page could have the links I think it requires.  I agree that having separate pages is not optimal, it represents duplicated effort.  I adopted that as a comprimise, since you don't want those links here. -lethe talk [ +] 14:43, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Note also that by redirecting Wikipedia:Help to Help:Contents, several pages became double redirects.  We should probably make a list of all such pages, they're a little hard to find from "what links here", since that list contains hundreds of pages. -lethe talk [ +] 14:45, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  help desk links 

message: Categories · Glossaries · Lists · Overviews · Portals · Questions · Reference · Site news · A-Z Index
 
Arts | Biography | Culture | Geography | History | Mathematics | Philosophy | Science | Society | Technology
Please add to discussion on the usefulness of the browsebar/catbar headers, at 
:Template talk:Browsebar#Is this bar useful?. thanks. --Quiddity 21:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Browsebar headers 

message: At Help:Contents/The_Wikipedia_community, for example, the headings are linked. This is confusing - as readers tend to look at the list rather than clicking on the heading itself (which is often the most important page). A new user has just reported experiencing this problem, so it's not just me who thinks it should be changed. I also think there is browser issue with making headings links, but I'm not sure if that is still important.--Commander Keane 20:43, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Linked heading are confusing 

message: Perfect! helps drive home the fact that the menu is laid out the same way, allowing for quicker visual scanning once the overall menu is a snapshot in one's mind... I'm not sure about removing the menu from this page though. couldnt we just make a reduced version with local links? (all we'd really need to do is put the "To view all of this on one page, see: Help Site Map" line outside the boxes border). the giant lightbulb bothers me more than the menu did ;-)  --Quiddity 09:04, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahh, i see from the history that heretohelp added the template purely SO that the two (menu and content) could be kept in physical synchonisation! i'm adding it back and removing the tipoftheday template, as that is already on the Help:Contents page. --Quiddity 09:11, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem with the template is that when clicking on a heading (link), the user is directed to that sub-page (just like Help Contents). Previously, when the contents were coded into this page, the link pointed to the relevant section of this page. Changing the template won't work as help contents would then be unusable. The solution, as I see it, is to ditch the template and code seperate contents for both pages. Maybe a note in the wikitext of help contents could be added asking people to mirror their changes here. Gareth Aus 07:24, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: fixed. --Quiddity 22:27, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Now the columns are unbalanced... 

message: I like the new template lethe. Good ideas.
I'm slightly against the redundant search box, but you did word the buttons perfectly concisely (in contrast to the search box on the proposed Main Page drafts, which was labelled "Find" of all things...). I'll see how the proposal to highlight the sidebar search box goes before i oppose this one though.
I do believe it's overall size needs to be decreased still, but that can be worked on over time. --Quiddity 03:58, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not married to the search box.  It is rather redundant.  And it makes up a large part of the size of the box, so let's get rid of it. -lethe talk [ +] 08:21, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have shrunk the font size, removed the search box, and widened the layout.  Now the Tip of the Day box almost fits on the page, at least with my monitor/resolution.  Maybe more can be done.  -lethe talk [ +] 08:52, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks even better!  I may try to shorten some of the phrases on the first line (if possible), since they all seem to run together.  We'll see how it turns out. --Hetar 03:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Template:Quick help]] 

message: The tip of the say should not be on this page. The tips are rather complex, people who visit this page are looking for help not distraction, and people who are experienced enough to want the tip of the day probably don't visit this page anyway. I suggest it is removed from this page.--Commander Keane 22:37, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconded. -lethe talk [ +] 22:55, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Where, then, do you suppose we put it?--HereToHelp 01:13, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Where else to put it isn't in the scope of the discussion, but you could try asking at the Wikipedia:Community Portal.--Commander Keane 01:35, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Edit conflict: Some suggestions might include Wikipedia:Tutorial, Help:Editing, or Wikipedia:Community Portal.  But people seeking assistance are unlikely to need whatever the tip of the day might be, in my opinion. -lethe talk [ +] 01:37, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: CBDunkerson has been adding browse features to the tips, to make them even more useful.  After reading through the tips, a new user would have a much better grasp of how to use Wikipedia.  There's also a list of tips a user can access.  --Go for it! 17:38, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Thirded. It does nothing to actually "Help" anyone, and won't even begin to until April 20! as we've all learned due to its being everywhere.  More seriously, its presence could get users "used to" the idea of large graphic banners put places to advertise things. Then the userbox people will grasp that concept, and suddenly every wikiproject will have a banner extolling their virtues and needs. Please please stop with the AOL-ification of wikipedia. If you want bright icons everywhere, make your own css skin (and share that).  Is this (Wikipedia:Motto_of_the_day) going to be planted on every page next? in your sig files? *tears out hair dramatically* --Quiddity 02:57, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

text: My top objection to TOTD was the size of the box, in proportion to other items on the help page.  I have cleaned up the TOTD coding, resized the box, and tweaked the its placement on the Help page.  --Aude (talk | contribs) 18:27, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Irrelevant of whether or not it should be on this page, the Tip of the day (in its current side-by-side arrangement with the common links box) doesn't quite fit on my screen (800x600 resolution.) The right side gets cut off, including a bit of the light bulb. I can provide a screenshot if you require it. But I think it should be fixed.--Commander Keane 19:24, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for mentioning it.  I've tried resizing the TOTD box and added some padding around it.  Is it still cut off?  There's probably a better way to code this, so that the boxes can wrap onto the next line, depending one's screen size.  And, as you mention, my experiment here is aside from the issue of whether TOTD should be here at all.    I don't have great preference either way.  --Aude (talk | contribs) 19:35, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it's completely viewable now. Howeverm there is still a horizontal scroll bar (although I can't see why it's there since everything is visible without it).--Commander Keane 19:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We can adjust the columns and boxes some more to get them to fit better, or try something totally different. --Aude (talk | contribs) 19:47, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just made TOTD slightly more narrow. --Aude (talk | contribs) 19:50, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The scroll bar's have disappeared, good work.--Commander Keane 20:24, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

text: GoForIt: My statement was that it won't begin to help anyone for at least another 4 weeks. You misquoted me and ignored the more important 2nd part of my post. --Quiddity 22:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't misquote anything.  Every tip we have is available right now, and anyone can browse them by following the tipster link provided on the template.  There are tips on that page and  on the page attached to it.  So your statement that it won't begin to help anyone for at least another 4 weeks is false.  Also, the template in its current form certainly helps volunteers to find the project.  --Go for it! 03:40, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tip of the day - should it be displayed on the Help page? 

message: Where'd the icons go?  The page look a lot nicer with the icons. --Go for it! 18:47, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I missed something.  What does the FAQ have to do with this?  Also, where are you getting these numbers?  My browser isn't showing anything.  --Go for it! 20:02, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: FAQ, sitemap, whatever is the long stuff that was added that you object to.  -lethe talk [ +] 20:12, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Thought about why it took my browser so long to load icons it cant't display anyway: The images come apparently from a different server, maybe it was especially slow at this time. Good compromises could be GIFs working with almost any browser, and only a small number of GIFs, e.g. one for all topics in Help:Reader, one for advanced issues (templates, magic words, etc.), one for media (image upload etc.), one for other info (guidelines, policies, shortcuts, what else), and finally one GIF for the main topics of Help:Editor. Less than ten over all, repeating those multiple times on the contents page would be no problem. JPG / PNG / SVG make no sense, the help pages should be visible with any browser (as far as it works for Wikipedia at all), old browser, mobile device, b&w printer, design it working for the worst cases. -- Omniplex 16:15, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Please put the icons back

message: Since there are only 1 to 3 icons on each subpage, they don't add much at all to download time there.  So having them there doesn't do any harm.  --Go for it! 20:43, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But they add to the load time of /site map.--HereToHelp 21:28, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Icons on submenus 

message: This is to settle the debate over the icons on this page. I will list their benifits and drawbacks:
*Benifits
**Makes the page looks friendlier and more welcoming.
**Helps give the page a unique feel and makes it more distinct when compared against the Main page and Community Portal.
*Drawbacks
**Increased load time
**"Tacky", "corny", or "ugly".
**When 98% of the subsections have icons and 2% don't, it looks worse than if 0% did.
**Visual clutter. Eyes jump to icons and read headings, skip over headings that lack icons.
Any others?--HereToHelp 21:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pros and cons of icons