Talk:Tatsumi-ryū

message: I suggest cutting the external links down to 2 or 3 (wikipedia is not a link farm) and to create some in line references.  Please see articles like Aikido on how to do that.Peter Rehse 01:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I've just finished a major cleanup and revamp to get this article into shape. It is still unreferenced, and going by "oral tradition" of a ryu is far from acceptable material to put into an encyclopedia article. Furthermore, for future reference, the Neutral Point of View must be upheld. Fred26 13:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to clarify. The article(s) needs written quotable sources, not simple reciting what a sensei says to his/her student. Fred26 15:33, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finished cleanup 

message: Be advised that information contained in this wikipedia post is not sanctioned because valuable information was removed rendering this post inaccurate. The description of the curriculum is in particular misleading.  The disciplines taught are not understood either, Hojojutsu and Katsu for example are not standalone subjects but fall under Yawara, not yawarjutsu, no such thing in Tatsumi-ryu. Likewise Bōjutsu, Naginatajutsu, Hanbo come under Kenjutsu and again are not distinct disciplines. This is a case where outsiders having read secondary text posit themselves as authorities were in-fact they have failed to grasp even a rudimentary understanding of the ryu.
:Well, lets discuss the problems, and try to fix them. I'm not clear on what you mean by the article no longer being "sanctioned". Bradford44 17:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  No longer Valid and is mislead 

message: A couple of points so we can reach a consensus here.  If you really insist that Tatsumi-ryu calls its practice of the sword "iai" (presumably 居合) rather than "iaijutsu" (居合術) or "iaidō" (居合道), then I can't really argue with you. But I wanted to make absolutely sure that's the "official", full name, and not just a shorthand term often used in your dojo.  The reason I'm concerned is that "iai" doesn't really mean anything by itself.  The kanji mean "to be, exist, live" and "join, meet", respectively, and in combination are frequently interpreted to mean something like "being in the present and immediately reacting".  So linguistically speaking, saying you practice just "iai", and not the "art of iai", or the way of "iai", or even "iai methods", is a little unusual.  And regarding your edit summary, I believe you are incorrect about the meaning of "jutsu" (術). It simultaneously means "art" and "science" (I think the word "craft" expresses that combination nicely).  It does not mean "method", which is usually "hō" (法), and also not "technique", which would be "waza" (技). 
Likewise with "Yawara" (柔), which alone just means softness. It would be weird to say, "I practice softness". It's lacks context, and is not normally or historically how things are described Japanese martial arts. Just hoping we can get some stuff cleared up, Bradford44 17:05, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Names Tatsumi-ryu's practices

message: This wikipedia post has been edited and posted with the approval of Liam Keeley, an authorized representative of Tatsumi-ryu, and cites published articles by Liam Keeley regarding Tatsumi-ryu in the series of books on the koryu edited by Diane Skoss. Liam Keeley is the only non-Japanese individual to have achieved an advanced license in Tatsumi-ryu. He is currently teaching Tatsumi-ryu in Melbourne, Australia.
He would appreciate it if people who are not members of the Tatsumi-ryu would kindly refrain from editing the article. As non-,members, it should be obvious they are not in anyway authorities on the ryu. If you wish to dispute anything contained in the article,  then please direct all enquires to Hiroshi Kato Soke Tatsumi-ryu Hyoho (in Japanese only please) or contact please  Liam Keeley directly in English.
Readers should be aware that koryu are private organizations that strictly control the flow of information regarding their activities. Authoritative information is hard to find, and may not always be accurate. Liam Keeley has sanctioned  this post as an authoritative statement regarding Tatsumi-ryu on wikipedia. It is asked that the integrity of the Tatsumi-ryu post on wikipedia be upheld as a mark of respect to Hiroshi Kato Sensei, 22nd Headmaster of Tatsumi-ryu Hyoho, and that it not be edited without his consent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.212.25 (talk • contribs) 2007-06-29T07:27:24 (UTC)
:With your statement and the blanking of prior discussion on this talk page, it would seem that you have a huge conflict of interest in editing this article. If this article can only be edited by "approved" editors with possible close ties to Liam Keeley, then it will be hard to maintain a neutral point of view here. --健次(derumi)talk 07:54, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Message to Editors 

message: I apologies for deleting the old discussions post's. 
Regarding the claim of a "conflict of interest" the validity of the post cannot be disputed as all efforts have been made to publish an article with neutral point of view, being that all that is information is public knowledge available online and in the printed publications from multiple sources. 
The bulk of the old post was preserved only minor grammatical changes were made to clarify some subtle points that the previous post did not make clear or understand.
Furthermore the information is mostly of a historical fact rather then being of a commercial, political or religious bases. Neither does the content seek to promote a faction or individual over another. 
Instead the compiled information is clearly referenced through the use of in-text citations by referencing published articles (which was perviously missing) by recognized authorities on the topic of Tatsumi-ryu in the English and Japanese language. 
As for having to close ties to Tatsumi-ryu, this is the nature of Koryu, their are only insiders, outsiders are simple not privy to knowledge, and often they misconstrue things because they do not understand the big picture having only obtained half truths and shadows from secondary sources. An analogy would be to expect a distant acquaintance to give you detailed account of your family and how it works. Only the members of a family, a tribe, or society can truly know the machinations of their group. This breaks down to the differences between Sociology and Anthropology as disciplines of knowledge. Koryu by  their very nature are akin to tribes and do not by their very nature lend themselves to an impersonal scientific analyses by impartial by standers. Liam Keeley is referenced only as far as he is the only individual with permission to talk about Tatsumi-ryu in the English world by Kato Hiroshi if you wish to confirm the claims made by Liam Keeley please address them to Kato Hiroshi Menkyo Kaiden Tatsumi-ryu Heiho for clarification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.212.25 (talk • contribs) 2007-06-29T08:23:48 (UTC)
If you have justifiable grounds and can prove that their is a conflict of interest I invite you to do so. Otherwise it is asked that you withdraw your claims of a conflict of interest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.212.25 (talk • contribs) 2007-06-29T08:31:17 (UTC)
:Some time should be allowed to let other editors more familiar with the article topic weigh in on this. My main grounds are that most edits are coming from one particular source, and that source says that all edits to this article must be approved. --健次(derumi)talk 08:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we have come to an understanding. Thank you in kind. --健次(derumi)talk 18:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Fred26 - If you wish to help to improve Tatsumi-ryu on wikipedia while respecting the integrity of the tradition please direct all enquires to Hiroshi Kato Soke Tatsumi-ryu Hyoho (in Japanese only please) or contact Liam Keeley directly in English, before making any changes, as it would be much appreciated. We are willing to provide more detailed information over time in good faith. Crackleandpop 10:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good. Though I wont be the one doing the main contribs to this article as I have other commitments on Wikipedia. Fred26 18:53, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification 

message: There is mentioning on a few sites that there was once a ryu called Tatsumi Shin-ryu, and that one of the last exponents was a certain Fukuzawa Yukichi. This ryu had some relation with the Tatsumi-ryu as featured in this article. I dont know anything about this branch, if it can be called such, but if anyone have any info it should be included here. Fred26 (talk) 21:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure I can be of much help here. In the Nihon Kobudo book by Yokose, it says that Fukuzawa Yukichi was a member of the Okudaira-han's Tatsumi Shin ryu. He is listed in the lineage for Tatsumi Shin ryu, but his name is in brackets, which presumably means that he was never a headmaster of the ryu. I'm not sure that any of this is relevant to this article, except perhaps there could be mention of Tatsumi Shin ryu as a descendent school of Tatsumi ryu. Srt27 (talk) 03:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes that would be the point. If the ryu is now dead as it is hinted then I doubt there is enough info left to make a whole new Tatsumi Shin-ryu article. So I guess can afford to put one or two sentences in this article instead. :) Fred26 (talk) 12:23, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tatsumi Shin-ryu 

message: This article is pretty close to a B-class. Here are a few recommendations:
:* Expand the Lead section by a sentence or two, explaining briefly the focuse of Tatsumi-ryu, something like: "a comprehensive martial art, developed to be of practial use for the aspiring warrior.  It focuses on use of dueling with the katana, but incorporates techniques for a variety of weapons used in medievel warfare, as well as techniques for grappling or un-armed combat."
:* Need a Reference for the section on Authorized teachers.
:* Any idea how many schools or practicioners there are world-wide? Is there a Tatsumi-ryu association?
Boneyard90 (talk) 00:05, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP:Japan Assessment Commentary