Talk:Tar-Baby

message: The article states that "[t]he only way to solve such a situation is by separation."  This seems to be a misinterpretation of the usage.  The point illustrated by the tar bay, both in the story and in usage, is that once you make contact with it, you cannot separate yourself from it.  In the story, Br'er Fox uses the tar baby to trap Br'er Rabbit.  Br'er Rabbit only gets stuck when he loses his patience and strikes the tar baby.  It would be more correct to say that "tar baby" is used to describe a situation that should best have been avoided in the first place.  AusJeb (talk) 19:09, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: "Solving the Solution"

message: I'm reverting back one sentence to reflect what we know rather that what public figures using "tar baby" have claimed.  We don't know that Mitt Romney, et al. didn't know prior to their employment of the term that it had (slight or great) racial connotations.  We only know that they asserted this ignorance after the utterance.  Also, why is one necessarily "surprised" that public figures occassionally speak in such fashion?  --Patchyreynolds 21:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In cases like Romney, the mere fact that he used the term is strong evidence that he did not know the racial connotations. A self-interested politician of his background and ambitions avoids any language which he knows may give racial offense. The utterance itself indicates he was ignorant that some people would take offense. Gojomo 17:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: But Romney wasn't talking about people. He used 'tar baby' in its original (and in my experience, overwhelmingly more common) usage, as a non-racial term, to describe a sticky matter that's hard to drop once touched. Many people (esp. old white Northerners/Westerners like Romney) have probably heard the tern used non-racially hundreds of times, and may not have heard it used as an racial term ever. (For example: searching the NYTimes archives finds dozens of innocuous uses of 'tar baby' in all kinds of news coverage over the past 25 years.) So even if the term has a racial meaning to some people, Romney's particular *usage* in context wasn't any sort of "it's just us" slur. 'Tar baby' does appear to be moving on a sort-of euphemism treadmill towards being a taboo term where it once wasn't. But in such a case, speakers being surprised by its taboo status is exactly the expected, common scenario -- not a manufactured excuse. (In fact, without the surprise and ensuing scold-storm, the news that the term is now taboo would not spread and the treadmill would stop.) Think of it this way: if I'm walking down the street, trip over a tree root hurting myself, and then say "I didn't see it", is it more accurate to say "he tripped over a root he didn't see" or "he tripped over a tree root he claims he didn't see"? The second, rather than being more accurate, actually injects a judgement of insincerity for which there is no evidence or even reasonable motive. Gojomo 07:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claims vs. what we know 

message: I'm afraid that the article at Political correctness doesn't address the phenomenom of people getting dressed down for words they didn't know were going to be found to be racially offensive.  For instance, PC doesn't mention the 'niggardly' episode.  And the "water buffalo" 'investigation' blows my mind.  So... where is the article that describes the mine field that is English, and points to all the words you shouldn't use?  Shenme 22:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia (in)famous for lists, so ... 

message: Should the repeated POV changes to the "Notable Recent Usages" section be considered vandalism?
After seeing what he is doing on the Mitt Romney page, I think it is safe to refer to his actions as vandalism.  -71.216.165.231 23:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: The example Kerry quote should stay. He wasn't quoting anyone in particular, he was paraphrasing the advice of "everybody on my staff, everybody I knew." Surely, they didn't all use the term 'tar baby'. To the extent any of them did, Kerry (another Massachusetts statewide officeholder) felt the term appropriate to reuse to summarize all their advice. It's also a good example of changing perception over the years; clearly the tendency to find offense in the term has grown since 1992. Gojomo 09:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kerry Quote 

message: I tightened up the quotes along the lines mentioned in a previous post, but did want to raise a question about the dates of usage.  I guess I'm wondering precisely when the term began to assume racial connotations.  It it was only recently it would seem to millitate against inclusion of older quotes, if only because the speaker would have to be clairvoyant to foresee a later etymological development.  Like many, however, I only know the term in its "Brer Rabbit" usage until lately.  Anyone have any information on this?  --Patchyreynolds 16:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evolution of term 

message: Can anybody provide an explanation of why "tar baby" is considered a racial slur at all -- aside from obvious conclusions that one could draw from the denotative definition? Or examples where it *was* used in a racist context? I've never heard it used in such a way that it suggested any kind of racial bias, and I can't find any proof that it generally carries any. MMZach 07:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you've misunderstood my point by latching onto the term "terroristic".  Let me clarify it.  Burning a cross is a symbol that indicates a threat against blacks.  While a slim minority aren't offended by such threats and may even support them, nobody disputes the meaning of the symbol of the burning cross.   The tar baby situation is different.  The meaning of this symbol is disputed.  How do we know what it means?  Those who have used it claim no racial offense or association, so no help there.   Those claiming to be offended can't describe why it's offensive, so no help there.  You could dig up some tenuous academic associations, but if that were the case, wouldn't the offendees come out and say it?   This looks overwhelmingly more like the case of niggardly than anything else... the term bears a passing resemblance to something that someone might find offensive, and some have been quick to affirm that offense 66.156.56.202 02:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm a middle-aged American. I have never heard the term not used as a racial slur. Jason Quinn (talk) 22:18, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess Uncle Remus stories were never read aloud to you when you were small, as they were for me. From those stories I know quite well that Brer Rabbit represents all of us who are small and have to survive on wits against those more powerful. I know that the tar baby represents a trap for a person's vanity, a trap for the person whose head is too filled with himself, a trap that caught Brer Rabbit because he was too vain that day. I know that these themes go beyond race. Binksternet (talk) 23:26, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct that those stories were never read to me as a child. I do not know what percentage of children are read these stories. I suspect it's low. I maintain my belief that the term 'tar baby' is primarily used in a racist fashion and that whatever its origin in the Uncle Remus stories is, that meaning has been usurped by society at large. Jason Quinn (talk) 14:06, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: And I am a somewhat older than middle aged American who has _never_ heard it used in a racist context. I suppose it matters who you listen to. CsikosLo (talk) 15:22, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racist? 

message: Some editors seem to find her viewpoint objectable. I've put it back in unless anyone can come up with a reason why reporting her POV is invalid. 68.190.48.20 16:13, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Virginia Buckingham 

message: Suggestion.... under the "Controversial usage" section how about we keep the first paragraph and remove all the bloody quotes and just keep the links to the various articles as references? As it stands now the article breaks NPOV by making an argument that Republicans are being targeted for using the term tar-baby but not democrates. However, a simple Google news search shows numerous hits were Republicans used the term without controversy and where some Democratics were admonished. 68.190.48.20 05:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It feels as if we're beginning down the road from which we got off a few years ago: every time an American politician uses the term, the page names them and notes yet another controversy (this time, a congressman). Any objection to simply folding the latest user into the single sentence we currently have noting past controversies (e.g., [[John McCain, John Kerry, etc.)? ThtrWrtr (talk) 17:10, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  In fact this latest user is not really notable, I would say; McCain and Kerry were much more prominent politicians.  We're not short of examples so I see no need to mention this recent case, but if we do, just adding the name to that list should suffice. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 01:46, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too many quotes 

message: A current read of Halberstam's The Best and the Brightest sent me here. I cannot imagine a more brilliant metaphor for the US military fiasco in Vietnam than the author's repeated use of tar baby. What a shame to abandon such a useful literary device for the sake of some unsupported claims of racial slurs. Cowardly, to say the least.
G13can 14:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Halberstam's Brilliant Use of Tar Baby 

message: This is not of particular import, so I didn't add it to the article, but the original Quake computer game (1996) had a creature called a "Spawn" that used the internal name "tarbaby" for its script and 3-D model.  If someone wants to add a modern usage or pop-culture section, this would make a good addition.  Here's one source: .  More official sources (like the actual QuakeC script code) can be found.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thatfield977 (talk • contribs) 17:02, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quake monster 

message: The racist connotations of the term tar baby seem to be largely a US phenomenon.  I have not been able to identify non-US racist overtones in a moderately detailed search, whereas use of the phrase to indicate an intractable "sticky situation" is not uncommon in British and Australian English.  I think there should be some acknowledgement that there are apparently cultural differences in the controverisal nature of this phrase between English speaking nations.  As far as I can make out, the phrase is entirely uncontroversial in British and Australian English.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.143.87.254 (talk) 03:34, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read WP:NOR and WP:SYNTH so that you can add this information without violating core principles of Wikipedia. You cannot simply find uses of the phrase and point to them to prove that the uses are not racist. You must find sources saying explicitly that the phrase is not used with racist overtones in other countries than USA. Binksternet (talk) 04:57, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

text: In the film book New Zealand Cinema: Interpreting the Past, on page 229, the authors discuss the 1988 film Mauri. They say, "Semmens Senior has no place for such a generous vision, calling Ramiri a 'spook,' stating that the Māori 'hate us' and calling Awatea a 'tar-baby,' later threatening to shoot her and deriding the prospect of miscegenation..." Clearly, the filmmakers present the term "tar baby" as a racial insult. In the 2004 book Queer in Aotearoa New Zealand, the author writes, "My personal experiences of being Maori had more to do with being called 'nigger', 'tar-baby' and 'ju-ju lips'..." By these links, we can see that racist uses of the term "tar baby" are present in New Zealand. Binksternet (talk) 16:10, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:   While it might have been used in a particular location and time in New Zealand, which clearly comes from direct US influence; saying it is current or has ever been somewhat common would clearly be manipulating facts without more substantial evidence.  Dlpkbr (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 03:20, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  US-centric nature of discussion racist implications 

message: The reference to the meaning of tar baby from the Oxford dictionary including the reference to racist usage is simply untrue and I have deleted it.  I have checked my print copies of both the OED and the Oxford D of E as well as the online version.  The full entry for the latter is pasted below.
tar baby
▶noun  (informal) 
a difficult problem which is only aggravated by attempts to solve it.
- ORIGIN with allusion to the doll smeared with tar as a trap for Brer Rabbit, in J. C. Harris's Uncle Remus. 
How to cite this entry:
"tar baby noun"  Oxford Dictionary of English. Edited by Angus Stevenson. Oxford University Press, 2010. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press.  University of Western Australia.  27 September 2011  <http://www.oxfordreference.com/views/ENTRY.html?subview=Main&entry=t140.e0845040>  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.143.87.254 (talk) 08:06, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In 2008, author Jennifer Lee Jordan Heinert notes in her book Narrative conventions and race in the novels of Toni Morrison that the OED gives a second meaning to "tar baby": "a derogatory term for a Black (U.S.) or a Maori (N.Z.)." I do not think your version of the dictionary is the same as the one used by Heinert or by Shay Riley at Booker Rising. In 1990 in The New York Times magazine, William Safire wrote, "The common colloquial sense today of tar baby is 'a sticky problem, one better left untouched.' However, the OED Supplement adds a second definition: 'a derogatory term for a Black (US) or a Maori (New Zealand).'" Safire republished his article in a book collection four years later. The OED comes in a more complete version with a supplement that must be purchased, and that version is the one being referred to by these various authors. Binksternet (talk) 16:10, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  False dictionary quotation 

message: As a folklorist (among other things), I am fascinated by the way tar bay stories are found around the world. Then there is the hubbub about the changed modern use of the term. So is it helpful to include a link to a different children's book?  I don't perceive a link to the core of this article. Pete unseth (talk) 13:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Nor do I, and unless there is a reputable citation to prove it the link has no business here. I've just removed it. Alfietucker (talk) 13:35, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Why is "Little Black Sambo" mentioned under "See also"?

message: Tar-baby seems to be quickly becoming a term in computing relating to a hostile honeypot that ties up a hostile robotic probe by either giving it endless pages of data to feast on, or feeding it with an extremely low bandwidth bitstream that ties it up waiting for the connection to close. Quite akin to the original story of the Tar-baby in the Uncle Remus stories. Does anyone else concur this would be appropriate?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by AE7EC (talk • contribs) 17:38, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use in Computing? 

message: I notice the term is used here sometimes in caps sometimes in lower case and sometimes hyphenated. I think it would improve the page to decide on the typography and stick to it.
#Is tar baby a common noun or a proper name (Tar Baby) or both depending on usage? 
#If it's both
##is it being capitalized/uncapitalized correctly in each usage?
##Is the primary topic (i.e. the page title) the proper name or the common noun?
#Do we want the common noun typography hyphenated or not? Jojalozzo (talk) 17:36, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistent typography 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Tar-Baby. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/spokeswoman-bachmann-tar-baby-quote-racial-16175625
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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.click2houston.com/news/5059431/detail.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=40&Ses=2&DocId=3936180
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The claim that Espinosa examined 267 versions of the tar-baby story is quite misleading. In the article referenced, Espinosa, without any evidence at all, discusses the variations between stories. This is a crucial difference, the article listed does not actually discuss any particular 'version' of the tar baby story at all.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.180.38 (talk) 19:33, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I am reverting you because Espinosa is the most authoritative source, writing about the topic since 1930's "Notes on the Origin and History of the Tar-Baby story". You can't simply blank out this important work by Espinosa. Binksternet (talk) 20:46, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  267 versions of the story?