Talk:People's Revolutionary Army (Argentina)

message: Some one must change this "The avowed aim of the ERP was the replacement of the Argentine government, whether civilian or military, with a revolutionary socialist dictatorship."
that phrase is incorrect, the word dictatorship should be replaced
maybe using "proletariat dictatorship" (this words had a very big context),that for a marxist means the start of a truly democratic society, but not just "dictatorship" that´s truly confusing and not even racional (its like throwing away all the marxist theory)
remember that we are talking about a trotskyst guerilla, ideologicaly they were against the "communist" states  who oppress the population in general, just like the USSR government.
:Changed to "proletarian rule" (while keeping the link to the article which more fully explains the Marxist concept of "the dictatorship of the proletariat") -- Picapica 08:58, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:ERPflag.gif

message: Besides the fact that there are many reasons why ERP doesn't qualify as a terrorist organization, the word "terrorism" is a term that should be avoided according to Wikipidea standards. Please stop editing the article to include the terms "left-wing terrorism" or other weasel words. Xtremepunker 06:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The use of the word terrorism 

message: 91.121.139.161, please stop reverting the article to include links to biased organizations and trying to pass them off as "official". They can't confirm their figures with anything other than their own "investigations". Every one of these sites has their own figures which range from a thousand (and most of them army combatants) to over 20 thousand victims (!!!). References like these are not neutral and can't be trusted. Xtremepunker 06:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biased sources 

message: Over 60 guerrillas were killed according to their own list of their fallen in the action(Sources: www.auno.org.ar, elortiba.org). According to the careful investigations of Paul Lewis, over 300 armed guerrillas took part in the assault , and this figure does not include the hundreds of civilian supporters who helped the assault materialize by providing the guerrillas safe houses before the battle, transport, food, weapons, intelligence, communications, etcetera, and the Montoneros and civilians that provided the attackers with medical aid and the means to escape in the aftermath of the operation.  Calamaro82 says the military forces killed many inocent civilians in the nearby shanty towns but it is clear that at least 15 of these so called 'inocent civilians'  were in fact militants of the ERP and Montoneros who took arms and were killed in the armed confrontations with the army, marines and police as they searched for the survivors of the Batallón urbano José de San Martín del Ejército Revolucionario del Pueblo who had escaped into the nearby shanty towns.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.128.162.2 (talk) 05:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: The real number of ERP guerrillas employed and killed in the battle for Monte Chingolo

message: They were defeated by military of Argentina.This video: [] has the ERP's official music. And this other video [] has interviews with persons that were friends of this marxistAgre22 (talk) 02:46, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Defeated by military

message: I don't think so. According to their manifesto:
The Center for Legal Studies on Terrorism and its Victims (CELTYV) is a Non Governmental Organization, non-political, dedicated to assisting victims of terrorism that struck the Argentina for 29 years, from 1960 to 1989. We work throughout Argentina.
Our research promotes the knowledge and dissemination of the actions of armed organizations, in turn supporting the victims of terrorism, to the psychological needs as well as legal and social aspects.
The work developed in CELTYV aims at not only the recognition of human rights for victims and dissemination of historical truth, but also making society visible to those who most suffered from the aggression of the terrorists, responsible for more than 21,600 attacks still remain unpunished.
CELTYV with their daily work gives voice to victims who may struggle to enjoy their rights, their stories and broadcasts that terrorism works to never again be an option in our country.
Our effort is coordinated with other NGOs in countries that also suffered terrorism in Latin America such as Chile, Colombia, Peru and Uruguay. All nucleated in the Latin American Federation of Victims of Terrorism, work so that the cry of the victims is not muted.--95.172.4.142 (talk) 03:38, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Duh. Who describes themselves as a biased political organization? You can read on their site articles like this one where they call state terrorism a "myth", they deny the genocide and cases of stolen babies for which military Junta members have been convicted, question the number of the disappeared, accuse the governments after 1983 of being in a conspiracy to silence and hide the truth, etc. And as I said earlier in my edit, they sponsor the annual fascist rally in Plaza San Martín where the speakers refer to convicted repressors as "political prisioners" and demand an amnesty for them. One of the main activities in this rally sponsored by CELTYV is giving the nazi salute and hitting journalists who ask inconvenient questions. So yes, they're extremely biased and they're not a neutral reference to cite. So stop editing. --Xtremepunker 04:16, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Stop the mud-smearing. CELTYV don't deny the fact that a lot of terrible things happened (killings, abductions, torture, etc) at the hands of the counter-insurgency task forces, and the fact that babies from murdered guerrilla moms and the sympthizers were given to military families for adoption. But we must remember that equally horrible things were carried out by the ERP and Montoneros guerrillas, which you seem to deny. And we all have the right to question the much trumpeted number of 30,000 disappeared, promoted by leftist human-rights groups and the Kirchner government. Just go to your main local library and you will see that the figure of 30,000 disappeared only started to appear in the world newspaper reports with the arrival of the Raul Alfonsin government. The real number of disappeared was somewhere between 12,000 and 13,000 (according to the un-biased Argentine Asamblea Por Los Derechos Humanos), and 10,000 of these were armed fighters of the ERP and Montoneros, and even the guerrilla groups recently admit that. You are promoting hate when saying CELTYV promote fascist rallies, for these are actually gatherings of groups of family members and friends and colleagues who lost loved ones, that are seeking justice, and even an BBC documentary (presented by Tanya Datta) shows that(available on youtube).--91.121.139.161 (talk) 08:41, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that is a blatant lie.CELTYV denies that the military carried out a genocide and systematic baby theft even though people were convicted of that and that makes them a biased source.The rallies they sponsor are attended by nazis and the speakers demanded an amnesty for members of the armed forces who committed crimes against humanity. I have already sourced this.Claiming that "equally horrible things were carried out by the ERP and Montoneros guerrillas" is totally inaccurate and a fallacy called the Theory of the two demons.The figure of 30,000 disappeared predates the Alfonsin government. The earliest instance I have read is from 1982 by CELS and it's attributed to church sources.Other human rights sources have reached the same figure by taking into account the number of clandestine detention centers, number of habeas corpus presented, an intelligence document copying the figure of 22,000 killed by 1978 they had in offices of the Argentine army intelligence and so on. This letter from the Argentine Human Rights Secretary illustrates the methodology.The lower figures from CONADEP, IACHR, etc. are self-admittedly incomplete because they're lists of names and many people did not report the disappearances out of fear and other reasons. No other genocide in history has ever required a complete list of names of the victims to count the victims. The 6 million-victim figure of the nazi Holocaust is an example of this.Your claim that Montoneros and ERP had 10,000 armed fighters is out of touch with reality. Even exaggerated estimations of the Argentine military intelligence reported to the American embassy claimed that ERP and Montoneros together didn't have more than 3,000 combatants at their peak in 1975. More serious studies like the one written by UN consultant Prudencio García estimate between 1000 and 1300 armed combatants. Xtremepunker (talk) 12:52, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Is CELTYV (Centro de Estudios Legales sobre el Terrorismo y sus Víctimas) a biased political organization?

message: In an interview with Juan Ignacio Irigaray:
BUENOS AIRES.- Una semana después de la autocrítica del Ejército y a petición del presidente Carlos Menem, el ex jefe de la organización guerrillera Montoneros, Mario Eduardo Firmenich, admitió que ese grupo armado cometió «errores políticos».
Sin embargo, justificó la opción de la violencia política seguida por una generación de jóvenes en los 70 porque «los argentinos produjimos una guerra civil silenciada hasta 1995» y los Montoneros «usaron -según él- el derecho de resistencia a la opresión por todos los medios».
En uno de los pasajes más criticados de su aparición en televisión, Firmenich justificó el secuestro y asesinato, en 1970, del general y ex dictador Pedro Eugenio Aramburu argumentando que «no fue un acto que decidimos nosotros, lo decidió el pueblo».
Acompañado de sus padres, esposa y cinco hijos, el ex jefe montonero de 47 años dijo que quería que «nunca más el pueblo tenga necesidad de venganza».
De ideas nacionalistas y formación católica, Firmenich fue condenado a 30 años de prisión por su papel en los Montoneros, que nacieron en 1968 como un grupo armado peronista pero hacia 1974 se enfrentaron con el fundador, Juan Domingo Perón.
Se trata del único líder de los Montoneros que sobrevivió a los 5.000 cuadros guerrilleros del grupo que perdieron la vida. A finales de 1990 Menem lo perdonó, junto a los comandantes de las juntas militares que gobernaron Argentina entre 1976 y 1983.
Tras esta declaración pública, el diputado socialista Alfredo Bravo dijo que analiza la posibilidad de presentar una demanda judicial contra Firmenich por presunta apología del delito.
Con el mensaje del jefe de los Montoneros vuelve a salir a la luz en Argentina la profunda grieta entre militares y ex guerrilleros y el debate sobre quién fue el que comenzó la violencia.
Menem, que defendió la represión de las Fuerzas Armadas y por ello fue expulsado de la Asociación Permanente de Derechos Humanos, declaró que «hay una autocrítica de Firmenich, pero no hay un pleno arrepentimiento por lo que se hizo». (Source: )--95.172.4.142 (talk) 01:58, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: And only a small fraction of them were combatants. So? What's the point and how is it related to this article about ERP? Xtremepunker (talk) 04:51, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: The Montoneros alone suffered 5,000 disappeared in the Dirty War

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