Talk:Kurdistan Freedom Hawks

message: The claims that it split from PKK are just opinions of some analysts. TAK was established independently from PKK and analysts say that it's possible that some founders of TAK were former PKK members. Not a split.Ferakp (talk) 16:34, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: My mistake, the split claim is by TAK itself also (though it can't be verified). However, it wasn't sources so I didn't see it. I will add it back using sources.Ferakp (talk) 17:06, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split 

message: For my respect on EtienneDolet's work, I will be placing his additions here:
Since the 1970s, the European Court of Human Rights has condemned Turkey for the thousands of human rights abuses. The judgments are related to executions of Kurdish civilians, torturing, forced displacements, destroyed villages, arbitrary arrests, murdered and disappeared Kurdish journalists. The TAK opposes the treatment of Kurds in Turkey and seeks retaliation for those Kurds who were killed at the hands of the Turkish government.
However, I do not believe that these are appropriate for this article and thus will be removing them until something like a consensus is reached here. The reasons for this are twofold. Firstly, this is a very selective account, something without precedent and does not really make sense to me. What might be more reasonable would be a brief account of the Kurdish-Turkish (or the Turkey-PKK) conflict with reference to human rights abuses. Here, this is just an account of human rights abuses without any context of the Turkey-PKK conflict that gave rise to the TAK. Not even a time scale, not even an indication of when the conflict began, just a reference to ECHR rulings as if to selectively justify TAK's claimed mission of opposing Turkish government abuses rather than to provide a robust historical overview of the conflict. However, an overview of the conflict itself is not necessary IMO because that is not specific to the formation of the TAK and we have a whole series of articles covering it with full details of these abuses that we can link to. The article on Real IRA does not have an overview of the conflict in Ireland (and this is a good article), it just has a "history" section that begins with the ceasefire that directly gave rise to the Real IRA. If the reader is looking for any further information on the complex history that gave rise to this organization, this is addressed not at that specific article but on the relevant set of articles (see WP:Flea). Moreover, if we do start giving details on the Turkey-PKK conflict here, there is no non-arbitrary limit for us to stop including material (at least without lengthy discussions). I believe it only makes sense to start with the ceasefire that likewise gave rise to the TAK here, rather than talk about ECHR decisions.
Secondly, this seems to be WP:SYNTH to me. For us to be able to include this as material directly relevant to the TAK, I believe that we need reliable sources that link these violations and (ideally) specifically mention these ECHR sentences to the formation of TAK as direct causal or pertaining factors. In the absence of these, one might incorporate pretty much anything on the history of the region as historical context in the formation of the TAK: one might, for example, point out to the fact that a goal is an independent Kurdish state and then talk about how an independent Kurdish state has failed to materialize up until now in this section. This links to my argument on arbitrariness in the paragraph above, which once again links to the WP:OR policy: this article is not for arbitrarily collecting all information on human rights violations by successive Turkish governments or the quest for Kurdish statehood, unless these are specifically referred to in relation to TAK in RS.
In short, I recognize the usefulness of a history section, thank you for bringing up the idea, which will no doubt end up improving the article at the end, but find the current one unacceptable. --GGT (talk) 21:56, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: You can't just remove it just because it's not elaborate enough, especially when I have made the good faith effort to shed light on WHY these attacks are happening in the first place. Rather than provide an enormous comment on the talk page, you could have easily done it yourself instead of making an +5,500 character excuse as to why it should go. The article is not WP:POV as it stands, and there's no balance in the sense of viewpoints and context. The TAK opposes Turkish policies. As for which policies, that needs to be clarified. So far, all we have is: "The group has been violently opposed to the Turkish government’s policies towards its ethnic Kurdish citizens." That's so vague that it's almost a meaningless and useless sentence. For all I care, they can be opposed to the Turkish government's view on the environment or the flooding of Hasankeyf. Who the hell knows? Wikipedia readership is entitled to understand what the context is and we shall provide them that, as we shed more light on this organization and its aims. As for the synth stuff, perhaps we can align some of the wording to fit with more specific policies and oppressive measures the TAK and the PKK complain about. I'm all for elaborating the section to meet those needs. Étienne Dolet (talk) 23:01, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Historical context" 

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