Talk:Mark Green (New York politician)

message: I just fleshed this out. Here are the sources of my quotes and analysis:
peter noel quote: http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0142,noel,29155,5.html
racial profiling: http://www.gothamgazette.com/searchlight2001/green_transcript.html
racism and green's loss: http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/politics/columns/citypolitic/n_9064/
9/11 and green's loss: http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=1328844
Aroundthewayboy 20:22, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: This article reads like a campaign flyer for Mr. Green and certainly doesn't fit the NPOV guidelines. | Keithlaw 21:02, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the unsubstantiated assertions referred to in your second comment.  As to the Noel quotation, it's certainly a fact that, rightly or wrongly, the incident alienated some minority voters.  The quotation is an example of that sentiment.  There's probably better support that could be found, but until we have a good substitute, I'm reluctant to remove this citation. JamesMLane t c 19:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV tag

message: An anon has repeatedly edited this article, without responding to my edit summary comments or to a message on his or her then-current talk page.  The anon has now commented on the edits but has done so on User talk:Gamaliel, although both Gamaliel and I have pointed to this page as the appropriate place.
I am cobbling together a thread here by compiling comments from elsewhere.
From one of my edit summaries:
Green is "conservative" only from a radical's POV; some of the stuff about AAR might be salvageable but it needs sourcing. JamesMLane t c
From my comment on the user talk page:
In reverting one of your earlier edits, I wrote this edit summary: "Green is 'conservative' only from a radical's POV; some of the stuff about AAR might be salvageable but it needs sourcing; PLEASE go to Talk:Mark J. Green."  The first point is, I think, obvious.  "Conservative" doesn't mean "anyone to the right of Noam Chomsky".  As for AAR, how much weight to be given in Green's bio to one particular criticism of him is something that can be discussed, but the criticism doesn't even make it to the starting gate unless it's cited to a reliable source. JamesMLane t c
:From the anon's comment on Gamaliel's talk page:
:it isn't irrelevant in the context of the "controversy" section of the article.  you deleted it from everywhere the first time around.   i will not put it anywhere else if you leave it in the controversy section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.208.63.2 (talk • contribs) 
::My reply (new material):
::I didn't say it was irrelevant.  I said that there was no basis for calling Green a conservative, and you've still provided none.  With regard to AAR, you need to cite a source.  That doesn't mean your assertion that Robert Kennedy said it.  It means providing a specific citation to a published source (online or dead-tree publication) that meets the criteria of the Wikipedia:Reliable sources guideline.  Specifics of citation are explained at Wikipedia:Citing sources.  There would still be an issue about whether to include it, because an encyclopedia article is a summary and can't recount every criticism that's been lodged against a public figure in the course of his or her career.  We can't even begin to exercise judgment about a particular item, however, until we see the item properly sourced.  You should also note that this article is subject to the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons policy.  That policy states in part: "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just highly questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles,Jimmy Wales. "WikiEN-l Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information", May 16, 2006 and May 19, 2006 talk pages, user pages, and project space." (emphasis in original) JamesMLane t c 16:20, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Addendum and semi-correction.  An anon has edited Mark J. Green under different IP addresses.  The comment I quoted above was from a note by an anon in User talk:Gamaliel#Mark J. Green entry but I see now that it may have been a different anon who put a comment in the wrong section.  Anyway, even if that's the case, what I said above about Wikipedia guidelines and policies is still correct.  And I wish all these anons would register accounts. JamesMLane t c 16:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anon IP's repeated edits 

message: Welcome to this area of the page, Mr. Lane.  Thanks for being so kind as to post here before deleting others' accurate, relevant and sourced edits.  Seems as though you've added quite a bit since whining to the administrators, insinuating that others "refused" to discuss information, no?  Lets get back to the subject of HONESTY in posting, shall we?  You are well aware that there exists a great deal of controversy over Green's managerial decisions at AAR.  If you are not aware of this, I would suggest that you please be courteous enough to excuse yourself from posting in this section of the page, as you would certainly be unfamiliar with the topic matter you were presuming to edit others' content on.  And certainly that wouldn't be an honest practice, would it?  I think there can be "concensus" in this discussion area on that point.
If you are posting in this AAR section of the entry, you should be aware that (as stated in the edit) both Al Franken (original Air America host and most high-profile builder of the network to date) and Bobby Kennedy, Jr. (son of U.S. Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, and current high-profile Air America host) harshly denounced decisions made by Green, which have made Green TREMENDOUSLY unpopular with Air America listeners.  As you are certainly aware (having, presumably, read it) my edit stated not that his stewardship was, "poor".  It stated not that his stewardship was "dubious".  Rather is clearly state that his stewardship was "controversial", for reasons stated in the edit.  This is incontestable.  Yet you troll the site to wipe it off?  This is simply unacceptable.
It would appear that you are the self-appointed custodian of this page.  You should know that--your feelings of love and devotion for Mark Green aside--you are incorrectly using the future tense in your upkeep of this (AAR) section.
Finally I will kindly ask you to please refrain from editing any of my content in this section of the page.  I warn that if you do, you WILL be reported to Wikipedia staff for vandalism.  This is open discussion, and you may not hide behind the skirts of Wikipedia arcana to bully others out of contributing to your clearly biased love-letter to Green in this area.
 
---
Final general thought, it's certainly fortunate that Adolf Hitler is no longer a "living person", for Wikipedia purposes, isn't it?  One shudders to think what the Mr. Lanes might insist upon in his entry ("No controversial POV assertions about allegations of improper treatment Jews, gays and Roma please!  And the term 'invade' is unacceptably charged.  After all: 'No info is better than 'controversial' info'".)  This standard, when carried to Lane's extreme is clearly ridiculous and unacceptable.  This standard, when carried to such extreme renders Wikipedia entries irrelevant.  I would like to establish a consensus here for the purpose of making this article MORE relevant and informative, rather than irrelevant:   AAR is Green's current business endeavor and therefore is arguably how most people now will appreciate his relevance and want to seek out his entry, and yet this section is, right now, being prevented from being flushed out by this single user, Lane.  I'm not suggesting that he or anyone else can't add on.  I'm not suggesting that erroneous information cannot be corrected.  On the contrary:  I'm suggesting that RELEVANT, ACCURATE CONTENT POSTED BY OTHERS NEEDS TO BE LEFT ALONE.  This is the policy I have followed, out of respect for the work of others who may know more about certain portions of the entry than me.  I would ask for the same respect on portions that are clearly indisputable.  I again ask all to PLEASE ONLY EDIT THE CONTENT OF SECTIONS WHERE YOU HAVE REAL FAMILIARITY WITH THE TOPIC AND CONTENT.
Thanks, all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.26.69.38 (talk • contribs) 18:24, 25 June 2007
:The position you impute to me, that controversial material should be excluded, is of course not one that I actually hold.  (In fact, your hypothetical example of an objection to the term "invade" is, unfortunately, realistic.  Some of the right-wingers here fought against using the term "invasion" to describe the invasion of Iraq.  I was one of those arguing in favor of using that term.)
:The position you set up as an alternative -- that relevant, accurate content should be left alone -- is also not the Wikipedia standard.  A statement can be relevant and accurate and yet inappropriate for any of several reasons, one of the main ones being that it's not properly sourced.  As I explained above, "sourced" doesn't mean your personal assertion that Robert Kennedy said something.  It means that the comment is cited to a verifiable, published source.  If Joe Unknown Blogger says that he heard Kennedy say this at dinner last night, that's no good.  If Kennedy was quoted in a reliable source (such as a printed newspaper or an established online source like Salon), then that's an acceptable citation to make the comment worth being considered for inclusion.  Just include the source and you'll be past this step.  In a fraction of the time you've spent writing these lengthy diatribes against me, you could have done a little research work and satisfied the requirement for sourcing. 
:Finally, let me give you a couple pointers about talk page formatting.  We don't use horizontal divider bars on talk pages.  Instead, if you're responding to a previous comment in the thread, precede each paragraph of your comment by colons -- one colon more than the comment you're answering.  This creates successive indentation that makes it easier to see the relationship of the comments.  Also, please sign your talk page posts by typing four tildes at the end: ~~~~.  This automatically signs your comment (with your user name, if you've chosen one, or with your IP address otherwise) and date-stamps it.  These conventions have been developed because they make the discussons more comprehensible. JamesMLane t c 22:12, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lane's edit vandalism 

message: What's the value of listing all candidates on slates he's been part of? It appears only very marginally relevant, and repeats some material already in the article. Cloonmore (talk) 17:04, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: State and City campaign tickets

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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