Talk:Laurynas Gucevičius

message: Now that the unnecessary and almost childish banter has been put away in Archive 3, I return to my question (which I asked in good faith and in  earnest). It is, if some of the participants in the debate regarding Gucevicius' nationality see any similarity in the recent debate concerning Jan Dzierzon? In a nutshell, the Polish side appears to be claiming that Dzierdon's name, his mother's maiden name, and the location of his birth, prove his Polish origins. The German claim rests largely on the basis of his citizenship and that the majority of his work was performed in the German language, in what was Germany. Perhaps an oversimplification, but I think that's the gist of it (excluding tombstones and a few other tidbits). In fairness to the German position, I believe they are claiming that his place of birth was German prior to the Partitions of the PLC (not sure). Perhaps analyzing this debate can help in trying to understand both positions in the debate concerning Gucevicius. Dr. Dan 03:53, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And yet you voted against "Jan" after arguing here, and there again, contradicting yourself once again. A cynic might start to think that you just reflexively vote against any kind of Polish name anywhere anytime.radek (talk) 01:43, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Similarity

message: # If Latin: Migance, then Polish must be Migańce.
# Why for NPOV is so necessary to transcribe Lithuanian names into Polish: Szymon Masul?
# Original source in church records writes: babtisavi infantem n(omi)ne Laurentium patris Symoni Masulis et Matris Catharinae Masulowa de villa Migance, but not as (original ).Orionus 12:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is yet another example of POV and Original research. reverted to previuos version. M.K. 14:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was a custom in the times Guczewicz lived that church records were written in latin (very rarely in polish language). There is no evidence Guczewicz ever used lithuanian version of his surname. In 1790 he was nobled by polish king Stanisław August Poniatowski (Syrokomla coat of arms). His full name was then Wawrzyniec Montrym Żakowicz-Gucewicz.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.8.173.250 (talk) 08:59, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: "NPOV" of Halibutt

message: Requesting original and translated citations which could support current sentence which starts In his last will he dedicated all of his projects to. M.K. 09:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations request

message: name of the art should be Wawrzyniec Gucewicz because majority of English language dictionaries of art states so. See  Mathiasrex (talk) 23:02, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, this isn't about the name, actually. It is about whether ha was Polish or rather born a Lithuanian and spoke Lithuanian in his youth, and built hos major works in Lithuania proper. It seems that modern Polish nationalists are going too far a bit, searching for something, that was never there. Read Krajowcy, for God's sake, to understand what you've lost bowing to the endecja. To put it simply - you've lost all the land that gave Poland Kings and Presidents (are you aware, that the current President of Poland had a Grandfather, who was a Lithuanian Army volunteer during the independence wars of Lithuania. And Pilsudski, And Narutowicz. Gosh.Lokyz (talk) 23:30, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Gucewicz never use form Stuoka-Gucevičius, maybe Gucevičius, and mostly Gucewicz (Gucevičius is a lithuanian translation of polish surname Gucewicz, and Stuoka adding to surname is used only by lithuanian publicist). In 1790 Gucewicz became noble (he received nobility from polish Sejm, coat of arms: Syrokomla; his full name was Wawrzyniec Montrym Żakowicz-Gucewicz, coat of arms Syrokomla). Poznaniak
If most English language sources call him "Wawrzyniec Gucewicz" then that's what the name of the article should be. I haven't checked myself if that's the case, but the argument of the OP is valid.Volunteer Marek 21:48, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wawrzyniec Gucewicz 

message: Why exactly does this article have Latin versions of names in place of Polish versions? Yes, I realize that there is a "source" - a baptismal certificate written in Latin but that is clearly not useful here. Otherwise we'd have to put in Latin versions of names for all people baptized in the Roman Catholic church at this time. So while the info is "sourced" it's inclusion is also nonsensical, especially since the motivation seems to be "anything but Polish".Volunteer Marek 21:47, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latin 

message: Polish names of remote villages in Lithuania near the border with Latvia doesn't make sense here.
Polish names of peasants ethnic Lithuanians in the remote villages near the border with Latvia seem not making any sense too.
Otherwise, we could put Polish place names and people names for all the people(s) within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth at this time. 
Žemėpatis (talk) 19:32, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering this individual is of heritage where both languages were important, it seems likely that the Polish name of his place of birth is related in this context. The only reason not to include it is if we were to try to deny his connections to Poland, which would not be a neutral approach. The Polish name should stay, just like should the Lithuania one.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:56, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

text: Just read WP:NCGN. For people with shared heritage, such as P-L case, we use the name of both locales. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:20, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

text: The difference is that there were few Poles in those places, whereas most Lithuanian cities at that time were speaking Polish (and Yddish), not Lithuanian. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:08, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish 

message: Actually, Gucevičius was NOT buried in Rasos cemetery, as this cemetery was opened a little bit later.
There is no consensus of the place of his burial. 
In the book, dedicated to Gucevičius, it is said, that there are at least three places in Vilnius where he may be resting:
1) Near the closed St. Nicodemus church near the Gates of Dawn, where the cemetery of the church was.
2) After the closure of the church, the bodies were transferred probably to the graveyard near the St. Stepehen church.
3) Rasos cemetery is named as the burial place of Gucevičius only in the mid. or late 19th century, when the first travel guide books appeared, but it is unknown, how the writers knew it or was it only their imagination. There are some evidences, that he is actually not burried in Rasos, that are discussed in the article.
The article in this book says, that the most probable place is St. Stepehn's church yard:
 
The place of supposed grave of Gucevičius is marked in the yard of St. Stephen's church.
Žemėpatis (talk) 02:56, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  RIP 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 19:50, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Laurynas Gucevičius →  – Similar situation to Talk:Romuald Giedroyć#Requested move 5 April 2022, another Polish-Lithuanian figure that used Polish name during his life, here is his epitaph. Google books hits: Wawrzyniec Gucewicz: 639; Laurynas Gucevičius: 442 Marcelus (talk) 14:00, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

text: Oppose - Google books hits for another name of this person - Laurynas Stuoka: 725. The justification of WP:GOOGLETEST to rename the article to the Polonized 'Wawrzyniec Gucewicz' does not stand up to scrutiny. Furthermore, this person was born in ethnically Lithuanian lands (the Migonys village) to a clearly Lithuanian peasant family as written in Laurynas' baptism record. Logically speaking, a Lithuanian name is obviously more fitting than a Polish one. Cukrakalnis (talk) 23:15, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Stuoka" isn't his real name, he never used it. His birth name is "Masulis", later in life he adopted name "Gucewicz", and that's how he is known, which Google Test only proves Marcelus (talk) 12:44, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: False, another name (Laurynas Stuoka) is preferred for this person when looking at Google books hits. The Google Test proves what I said, thus denying, instead of proving, what you said. Cukrakalnis (talk) 20:41, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's maybe preferred, but the name itself is wrong, because he never used it: Masiulių aplinkoje būta ir Stuokų (pirminė forma Stoka). Jie į Migonis iš Panemunio apylinkių atsikėlė apie 1740 metus. Vienas jų, Stanislovas Stoka, kai mirė architekto senelis Petras Masiulis, vedė jo našlę Daratą, tai yra atėjo į Masiulių namus kaip užkurys. Suprantama, tokia tolima ir šalutinė giminystė architekto pavardei negalėjo turėti įtakos. Ir jis pats niekada Stoka ar Stuoka nesivadino. (Edmundas Rimša Marcelus (talk) 05:25, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

text: Oppose - clearly Lithuanian In ictu oculi (talk) 14:43, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: @In ictu oculi we aren't talking about his nationality Marcelus (talk) 18:14, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure we are, what possible reason is there to give a Polish name to a Lithuanian? In ictu oculi (talk) 14:35, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Because he was using that name, and that name is the most popular one in the literature. There is a plenty Poles with German, French and so on names Marcelus (talk) 15:03, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 12 July 2022