Talk:Tourniquet (band)

message: Attention: could the user who is editing the page to remove information please provide details of their authorization by the band to remove said information? - 5minutes
:Though it's not me who made the edits you refer to, I just made one to remove what was obviously ad-copyesque material and return the article to WP:NPOV. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:31, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Secondly, and more importantly, we do not need the band's authorization to do anything to Wikipedia. WP:OWN Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:33, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Understood...  however, the problem is directly related to issues within the band.  Basically, there's a former member who's doing everything he can to erase and replace current, factual information with his own personalized history.  Hence, the issue.  As to the ad copy - I have no problem with that. 5minutes 16:36 UTC, 28 Dec 2005
Are there any links or influence on the band, Avenged Sevenfold from Tourniquet? Luke Easter years; ie; Waking the Fallen ... very similar vocals,sound and so on ... just wondering?
User:Alnico
=== Discography ===
I have added all the albums and tried to improve the layout of the album pages but there is still some info missing from quite a few of the albums, if anyone can add some more to it that would be great.--E tac 10:35, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Edits 

message: I have added all the albums and tried to improve the layout of the album pages but there is still some info missing from quite a few of the albums, if anyone can add some more to it that would be great.--E tac 10:35, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discography 

message: :Image:Circadian ryhythms ted kirkpatrick tourniquet.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 16:10, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Circadian ryhythms ted kirkpatrick tourniquet.jpg

message: :Image:Circadian ryhythms ted kirkpatrick tourniquet.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 01:52, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Circadian ryhythms ted kirkpatrick tourniquet.jpg

message: :Image:Circadian ryhythms ted kirkpatrick tourniquet.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 11:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Circadian ryhythms ted kirkpatrick tourniquet.jpg

message: There are blatant biases from the Christian metal scene perspective throughout this article. The level of influence, popularity, and originality of this band is grossly overstated. The awards and praise Tourniquet has recieved have come almost exclusively from Christian metal scene sources. This band did not reach the level of acclaim won by bands like Metallica and Slayer because their early material was exclusively distributed through Christian labels and outlets until they signed to Metal Blade well after these other bands were firmly established, and also because, despite their undeniable technical skill, Tourniquet is not as compositionally innovative as these bands; it is absurd to claim that Tourniquet were left out of the "Big Four" success level because their songs were "too complex", as Metallica and Megadeth have recorded albums (...and Justice For All and Rust In Peace, respectively) that are far more "complex" than anything Tourniquet have done. Furthermore, Tourniquet's Christian stance is condemned in the secular metal community, as it conflicts with the essence of metal philosophy, which is inherently anti-christian.
It is also important to point out that most Christian metal bands have ripped off elements of non-Christian bands, and Tourniquet is a prime example. It is no revolutionary thing that the band incorporated medical terminology in their lyrics, as the British grindcore/death metal band Carcass had already become known for doing this on their first three albums, all of which were released before Tourniquet began using this tactic. There are even drumbeats directly lifted from Carcass's 1991 album Necroticism onto Pathogenic Ocular Dissonance (example: listen to the distinctive opening drumbeat to Carcass's "Corporeal Jigsore Quandary" and compare it to the beat used in the guitar solo section of Tourniquet's "Exoskeletons"). Tourniquet have also been trend-hoppers throughout their career, incorporating death metal styled blast-beats and riff phrasings when death metal was at its peak, and then abandoning metal altogether to play grunge rock when that became popular.
This article needs to have a more objective position, as it misleads the casual reader by not making it clear enough that the vast majority of Tourniquet's notoriety has come from Christian metal publications and Christian radio stations, and not from secular metal sources.
99.29.184.71 (talk) 16:22, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you feel there are biases, then you should address them.  This is a community-edited encyclopedia, and you are welcome to put your own edits up to the community for verification.  As to your claims regarding how "most Christian bands rip off secular acts", I'd like to see some citations and evidence of that fact.  Simply pulling a couple of drum beats here and there doesn't really qualify as "ripping off" anyone.  5minutes (talk) 19:35, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: i'd like a citation on 'Metal's philosophy is inherently anti-christian." That sounds like pretentious bull to me.--Hadomaru (talk) 05:36, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian Metal Bias. 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Tourniquet (band). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110607011847/http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=91616 to http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=91616
*Added  tag to http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=135537
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:43, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I bumped into an old 1999 Tourniquet interview recently via the Wayback Machine. In that interview Tourniquet's former vocalist Luke Easter told that M. Russo who is credited as playing some solos in Vanishing Lessons was called Michael Russo and was actually a member of the band for a short while. Now, this interview was uploaded to some 90's Tourniquet fanpage so ok, maybe it's not a good reliable source. The interview was made in Germany when Tourniquet had a gig in Ennepetal. However, I found another source from the official Cross Rhythms website ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_Rhythms ) where they had archived their news from their old magazines ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_Rhythms_(magazine) ). Here's a link to the news: http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/articles/news/Russo_Replaces_Mendez/41408/p1/
That site clearly mentions the magazine the news is from and the date too (Cross Rhythms Magazine issue 20 - 1st of April 1994).
So, again:
-M. Russo is credited as having played some solos in Vanishing Lessons album by Tourniquet. So far, he could be just a session musician for all we know.
-In an interview from way back in 1999, that may or may not be reliable source for information, a member of the band says M. Russo is Michael Russo and was briefly a member of the band. Played the solos and a couple of gigs.
-The official page for Cross Rhythms (a Christian organization also noted by Wikipedia) that still exists used to publish a physical magazine focusing on Christian music (magazine also noted by Wikipedia). In their official website they have archived news and articles from their old magazines and one of the news says "THE guitarist of Tourniquet Erik Mendez has left the band and been replaced by Michael Russo" and has the magazine issue mentioned along with the release date.
This update was removed as not reliable.
I can understand that maybe an old interview in some 90's fan page might not be reliable enough, but isn't Cross Rhythms more than enough reliable source for this info?
I mean, M. Russo's involvement in the album is an undeniable fact. Any copy of the album will prove that. And the same year Vanishing Lessons was released Cross Rhythms gave news of Michael Russo being the new guitarist for Tourniquet, and then there's the oddball interview where his involvement with Tourniquet is again mentioned.
This is information very few Tourniquet fan has no knowledge about. Most, if not all, think Tourniquet went from Erik Mendez straight to Aaron Guerra while the evidence shows the name appearing in their album was actually a member of the band for a while although not mentioned as a member because he was out of the band before the release. He played for the album and, if the interview can be trusted, played a couple of shows with them.
I really hope the deleted information will be put back in Tourniquet's Wikipedia article. If not, I would like to hear the reasonings for that and how Cross Rhythms wouldn't be a good enough source.
Airola (talk) 19:40, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a session musician. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:03, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  So a music magazine contemporary to the album and time frame in question can't be seen as reliable? If it just isn't reliable, ok, I can let this go but I'd really like to know why. Airola (talk) 20:47, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  http://www.angelfire.com/biz2/tourniqt/index.html is a site published by John Holtzman.  That was the unreliable source. http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/articles/news/Russo_Replaces_Mendez/41408/p1/ is a repost of a tweet. No author. No other information. What does "replace" mean? Too many questions. I wouldn't use it as it's a :WP:PRIMARY. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:54, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's not a repost of a tweet. The tweet button is there for people to retweet the archived news if they want. Maybe they have retweeted all the old news they have archived, who knows (at least I can't find that news from their Twitter). The point of their news archive is to have all news they've published archived, new and old. You can see there is "Published in the CR Mag 20" right above the news text. And next to it you can see the date "Friday 1st April 1994." http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/articles/news/Tourniquets_Vanishing_Lessons/41539/p1/ Here you can see their news about the upcoming release of Vanishing Lessons album. Above the news it reads "Published in the CR Mag 22" and it's dated August 1994. They also have archived reviews and articles from those old magazines. http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/articles/music/Tourniquet_American_thrash_metalers_bringing_in_a_classical_element/36395/p1/ Here they have an old article about Tourniquet from issue 4 that was released in November 1990. You can go through their news, review and article archives and see they have a lot of stuff from 1990 onwards and all of them have been dated and the source magazines have been cited. That archive is as close to primary source as I can find what comes to this subject. Magazine was published when the Michael Russo situation happened and the album was released. It had contemporary news, reviews and articles about Tourniquet. Now, what comes to the word "replace", replacement of a member that has left the band simply means replacing the member. Somebody taking the position of a former member. Someone merely doing some guest solos wouldn't be said to be replacing a member who has left the band. When Aaron Guerra left the band and wasn't a part of the Where Moth and Rust Destroy album, but instead Marty Friedman and Bruce Franklin played the solos and Ted played the rhythm guitars, Marty and Bruce weren't said to be replacing Aaron. They were guest musicians. While that interview in the fan page might not be reliable enough, it gives more context and maybe "circumstantial evidence" to the Cross Rhythms news. There Luke Easter clearly says Michael Russo was a member of the band for a while and no-one present in the interview denies that. I could try to get Ted Kirkpatrick on Facebook to tell me what the case with Michael Russo was, but I doubt what he says can be used as evidence, but at the very least if he says he wasn't a member of the band at all I would stop bothering people on Wikipedia with this subject :D Airola (talk) 10:49, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I stand corrected. It's a one-line piece without an author. It's something but not clear evidence that he was a member. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:10, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it probably was one of those short news tidbits a lot of music magazines used to have. Like, having longer news on the pages and smaller "quick news" on the side of the pages. I recall Metal Hammer used to do that. Anyway, I contacted Ted Kirkpatrick on Facebook and he confirmed Michael Russo was in the band. I specifically asked if he was a member of the band. He said yes and that he was out before the album was completed. I asked him if it's ok to share the chat log with you if necessary, but he hasn't answered on that yet. Airola (talk) 20:41, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks! You could always suggest that he briefly add it to their Facebook about or members page. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:02, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi again! What you suggested has not happened. But I got another confirmation from Tourniquet's ex-guitarist Gary Lenaire. He posted Ready Or Not, a song from their first album, on Facebook and in the comments when talking a bit about Erik Jan James (not) playing bass on that album I asked about Michael Russo. https://www.facebook.com/GaryLenaireOfficial/posts/778525229270212 This is what he said: "Mike Russo was brought in to replace Erik [Mendez]. He was let go in the studio as we were starting to record Vanishing Lessons. Personality differences mainly. Also, our producer could not work with him." Also, while I'm super hesitant in posting private messages, here is a link to a screenshot of what Ted said when I asked him about it: https://imgur.com/KTyF8jB He says "Hi Rami - "yes" to this... Actually gone from the band before the album was even completed. Sometimes things just don't go as hoped... quickly." Does this information have any merit in debating whether Michael Russo should be mentioned in the article as a brief member of the band? So, currently 1. He is credited in Vanishing Lessons as M. Russo playing some of the solos 2. There is this one odd interview online where it's mentioned Michael Russo was in the band briefly and played a couple of shows 3. The news archive of Cross Rhythms magazine has initial news from that time that Michael Russo has replaced Erik Mendez 4. Ted confirmed he was in the band in a private Facebook message 5. Gary Lenaire said in a public Facebook post that Michael Russo (he calls him Mike Russo) was brought in to replace Erik Mendez and that he was let go in the studio. I think this should be enough to at the very least have him be mentioned in the article. What do you think? Airola (talk) 20:06, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's all very tenuous and the sources are problematic. You might want to suggest an actual change and raise that, with your sources, at :WP:RSN. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:06, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Michael Russo as a Tourniquet member