Talk:Nelson H. Barbour

message: The photo (artist's rendering) of Barbour that I've deleted from this page is copyright material and not available for use on this page. Stop posting it until you obtain permission of the copyright holder.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.115.226.232 (talk) 01:36, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The anonymous IP editor above has reverted literally all recent improvements to the article, including a proper lede and proper references. I've reinstated all improvements (except the image in question, to avoid that becoming a distraction). While the editor may be very interested in the article subject, please do not revert again without discussion at Talk. --AuthorityTam (talk) 20:20, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

text: I'm not trying to steal anything. I'm trying to improve the article. I've never claimed infallibility and have been glad to see corrections to links etc. I was disappointed to see wholesale reverts, and hope to avoid that in the future. Discussing matters at Talk is certainly a step in the right direction. Incidentally, you may be interested in registering a proper UserID here. --AuthorityTam (talk) 21:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barbour Photo 

message: Barbour's middle name isn't Homer. It's Horatio. If you'd bothered to read Schulz and deVinne's biography, cited at the end of this article, you'd know that. Horatio is a familial name used repeatedly by the Barbour (aka Barber) family after immigration to the US. His name is correctly given on patent registration documents filed in the UK. The source is available online and is cited by Schulz in Nelson Barbour, the millennium's forgtten prophet. Stop reverting to nonsense.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.106.8.144 (talk) 09:49, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Name 'Horatio' not found in the linked source. And do not disrupt articles to try to make a WP:POINT.--Jeffro77 (talk) 02:29, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

text: Found reference to Horatio elsewhere, but unclear what establishes 'Horatio' as 'more correct' than 'Homer'. A patent registration isn't exactly a birth certificate. Middle name should therefore be omitted in lead and briefly stated in body text as variously reported.--Jeffro77 (talk) 02:34, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

text: I have correctly indicated that the name is variously reported. The appearance of one of the names on a patent application does nothing to confirm his birth name. All it does is establishes what middle name he used at the time he filed the application. He may have had two middle names. He may have gone by a traditional family middle name later in his life. You just don't know. All we know is that he is variously reported as having either middle name.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:51, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

text: What is your basis for the claim that King 'guessed'? I am not reaching. I have accurately stated that the name is variously reported without dogmatically asserting one name above the other, as you are doing.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:03, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

text: There's certainly some hubris here. I'm sure you're a 'very good professional historian'. Now that your ego's had some stroking, we can get on with things. I am not supporting "an mistake", nor do I care if you consider me an "amature". All I've said is there is ambiguity. You have no way of knowing what King may have known. You are simply relying on a name Barbour wrote on a single document. And you shouldn't be doing original research for articles here anyway.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:23, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

text: I never added a 'footnote'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:23, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

text: A request for a third opinion has been lodged.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:31, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

text: Thank you, editor who created an account solely for this purpose. Aside from the fact there is no way to confirm your identity, there is neither any confirmation for why the alternative name is necessarily "in error" or whether 'your' research is necessarily superior. The neutral approach would be to simply cite that the name is variously reported.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:54, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

text: I've seen nothing in the book that confirms the middle name one way or the other. All I've seen is that at some point Barbour wrote a particular name on a patent application. It doesn't confirm his name by birth, or give any real indication why one name should be dogmatically selected above the other, or why the name King provides 'must' be a 'guess'. The speed with which you created an account and responded here makes me wonder if a CheckUser should be requested for the new account and the previous anonymous IP account.--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:15, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

text: I found the relevant page online. I don't really care what you 'suggest'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:19, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

text: I've 'made up on my mind' on the basis that the name is variously reported, and should be stated as such. You on the other hand seem to have a vested interest in promoting one name above the other. That coupled with the speed of the other editor appearing leads me to believe you are promoting your own original research in this article, which is a conflict of interest.--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:24, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

text: I'm another editor here to offer a third opinion as requested at WP:3O. I agree with the position advanced by Jeffro77. Per our policy WP:BURDEN, editors who want to include content in Wikipedia (here, the assertion that the subject's middle name is definitely "Horatio") are obliged to provide reliable secondary sources for that content if challenged. The person(s) making this claim have not done so, instead relying on loud and rude assertions of original research, which is not allowed in Wikipedia.  Sandstein  08:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

text: You're just going around in circles with your own interpretation of your own original research. Refer to previous response.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:58, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

text: Central to the claims above is the false premise that it was me who originally changed the name to Homer in the article. I didn't. The claims about me in the list immediately above are lies. The article gave his middle name as Homer since the article was created, by a different editor, in 2005. If you can't get your facts straight about that, it doesn't lend much support to your credibility for things that happened over 100 years ago. Further, you seek to impugn the credibility of King, though you state that King had access to Barbour's materials as a direct outcome of what was stated in Barbour's will.--Jeffro77 (talk) 06:57, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

text: Your complaint continues to be irrelevant, as I have repeatedly stated that in light of the available sources, the article should simply say the middle name is variously reported.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:19, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barbour's Middle Name 

message: I propose the deletion of the bibliographic references to my book and article. While the book written by Mr. Schulz and myself is the only biography of Barbour available, the recent edits to this article tend to misrepresent its contents. That it is referenced as the entry’s main source suggests that I agree with the article as it now stands or with recent edits. I do not. 
The article written by us and linked to in the Bibliography section is dated and does not represent current research. It was an appeal for research help made to a small community of experts. The article represents our research as it was. Additional research moved us beyond that article. It should be deleted as not representing best, current research.
While Mr. Schulz, my co-author, and I appreciate that the link to our history blog was well intended, the blog (truthhistory . blogspot .com) hasn’t focused on Barbour since the publication of our book. Much of the information found there when the link was made has been removed and our research taken to a private, invitation-only blog. So the link is no longer relevant to this article. It is no longer the Barbour Biography project it once was but is the current face of our research for book two in this series, A Separate Identity: Development of Eccelsia Among Readers of Zion’s Watch Tower 1870-1887. The blog is cited in a number of other articles, especially on the Italian version of Wikipedia. I have no objection to those references.
While there is extensive additional material on Barbour and Russell on our private blog, it is not open to general access. Any links or references to the private blog should be removed.
A week should be adequate time for anyone interested to respond.RMdeVienne (talk) 02:38, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the article would suffer without the references. The link to the history blog remains important because Rachael and her fellow editors continue to post material relevant to Barbour. Case in point is the post last July showing the advertisment for Barbour's Tent Meeting in Buffalo. Rachael, would you be willing to footnote the article, obviating the need for a reference to your book? I've said my piece here and in person. We should respect her wishes and delete the references.50.106.8.144 (talk) 01:43, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

text: Links to the blog should never have been added in the first place. As such, of course they should be removed. The book can continue to be used as a source, unless it does not meet the criteria for reliable sources.--Jeffro77 (talk) 06:59, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

text: There has been no 'insinuation' about the book. I fairly clearly stated that whilst the blog cannot be used, the book can. I understand that the purported author of the source 'doesn't want' their book used as a source, but that is immaterial here. Either the book constitutes a reliable source, or it does not. I don't really care what the editor wants at this point. The article requires neither permission nor endorsement to use a particular source, so unless it is established that the book is not a reliable source, it may be used. If discussion at Talk establishes that a source is not being used properly to support a particular statement, then that statement should not cite the source, but there is no premise for an author to remove reference to a source throughout an article on the basis that an author doesn't like other material in the article. In this case, the source does state that the middle name is reported as either Horatio or Homer. The version of the lead I intend to restore correctly indicates that the middle name is variously reported and that Barbour supplied his middle name as Horatio on the patent application, and this is consistent with what is stated by the source in question.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:30, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

text: I have removed the section with the understanding that you're not able to do so because you're not an auto-confirmed user and can't edit the protected page. This is a courtesy, despite your 'request' being phrased as an order. You and/or your associates involved in the research or publication of your book should not have added original research to this article in the first place, especially without disclosing your conflict of interest.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:29, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

text: There's no need for anything so dramatic as restoring an old copy from 6 years ago. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater? The article isn't exactly as you would like. Life goes on. Merry Christmas.--Jeffro77 (talk) 23:55, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested Deletions