Talk:Earl of Richmond

message: Read in a french book about William the Conqueror :
« In 1068, William created a small earldom around Richmond to isolate Northumbria. He named Brian de Penthievre, a brittain auxiliary to manage this earldom. In 1072, Alan (Alain) de Penthievre succeeded his brother in the Richmond earldom. In 1080, this earldom was one of the five earldoms remaining in the kingdom. »
PurpleHz 18:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: could you provide the citation for this book so I can read it ? Thanks 96.224.67.52 (talk) 17:28, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The author is Paul Zumthor, the book Guillaume le Conquérant et la civilisation de son temps (1964). I don't think this is a worthy reference. David C. Douglas, in his William the Conqueror (1964 too), doesn't mention him as earl of Richmond, but "perhaps as earl of Cornwall". He says that he didn't stay long in England and went back quickly to Brittany. Regards, PurpleHz (talk) 17:54, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creation of Richmond earldom 

message: *http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/About/06.htm
*http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Earls_and_dukes_of_Richmond
*http://www.genuki.org.uk:8080/big/eng/YKS/NRY/Richmond/Richmond90.html
*http://flagspot.net/flags/fr-bz-dk.html
*http://www.hq69.dial.pipex.com/Pages/h_earl.html
*http://www.leighrayment.com/peers/peersR2.htm
*http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Regions/Iles_Britanniques/Duche_Richmond.htm
*http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_comtes_de_Richmond
I am willing to bet that the coa, 1911, genuki and fotw have the most accurate information.  As it stands now, the listing of Richmond's lords is rather vague and non sequitur.  For instance, Wikipedia's Earl of Richmond article lists Peter of Savoy as Earl of Richmond, but not Ralph de Neville, 1st Earl of Westmorland.  Neither man was holder of the Peerage, but instead holder of the Honour.  While the Richmond Herald article lists George Plantagenet, 1st Duke of Clarence as Earl (holder of the Honour in other words, at least...), this Earl of Richmond article does not.  Whoever thought that "angeltowns" is a be-all, end-all reputable source must have their head a little loose on their shoulders.  That's a private webpage, like geocities!  Rhode Islander 20:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article status mid February 2013 has been updated to follow the progression of the title and the ownership of the Honour when held separate from the title as well as the titular use of Earl of Richmond by the House of Montfort in Brittany. This seems an acceptable current reflection of available research. 71.167.64.218 (talk) 05:15, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conflicting sources for succession of the earldom: 

message: I suggest a merger of this article with the Duke of Richmond article and flesh out the differences between the Lordships, Earldoms and Dukedoms of Richmond in their relationship with the capital district of Richmondshire as well as the total Honour of Richmond.  Throughout the Rennes dynasty and until the Angevins, they were not officially earls but actually more or less just lords of the honour.  After all, most histories of Brittany make note of the rise of feudalism in Brittany having been started with the rule of Henry II of England.  This was also the first time when an outsider dynasty ruled over the region.  Beforehand, the rulers of Brittany were local Breton and Gallo speakers from Western and Eastern Brittany.  Les Invisibles 16:44, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: With the substantial updates from Jan and Febr 2013 this article EARL OF RICHMOND now stands well on its own and clearly makes the delineation of the EARLDOM versus the DUKEDOM. The earldom should remain a separate article. Also now there is a separate article on the Honour of richmond that was also updated during the same time frame. And it should stand on its won. The Earldom and Honour articles are now carefully interlinked. Further changes should be to add to the history of the Earldom and / or Honour and to provide additional sources71.167.64.218 (talk) 05:11, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggesting a merger and rename 

message: Whatever reason John (V) de Montfort was the last Breton duke to be earl of Richmond, it was not because he did not leave any heirs - he had a son who succeeded him in Brittany.  This ought to be corrected, preferably with accurate information. john k (talk) 07:05, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The reasons for the Dukes of Brittany losing the Earldom are complicated in the War of the Roses, etc. The article has been improved using Breton history summaries to note that after John V the Breton Dukes retained the title as a titulary and the line of titular counts is listed with links for their particular articles and histories. This completes the story for the time being. 71.167.64.218 (talk) 05:13, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  last Breton earl