Talk:Laurynas Gucevičius/Archive 2

message: Thank You, Halibutt, for pointing to the essay by Tomas Venclova (this essay). I think, that it's even more significant what is said, than who said it. I've read it, but now I have many reservations on his ideas there. (Perhaps its better to comment it in other place, but let it be). 
He gives many associations connected with facts of Lithuanian Rebirth and with Mickiewicz. Some of them are partially true, some of them are hypothetical (ipse dixit) and some are dubious,  but the article can't be considered a good abstract of the history of Lithuanian Rebirth. 
Mickiewicz had taken something from Lithuanian thinking to his works, something he changed or added his own, how it seemed to him. He also proportionated all his visions according to his idea, that Lithuania is one part of two indivisible oppositions (like T. V. or many others say). But he suggests a quite strange role for Lithuania. I doubt if any nation would wish to take such a role: to be uncivilised, wild, historically conservative etc.  in order to nurse some complexes of other nation. This should be considered a sign of national egoism in his works. However he didn't ignore the ancient Lithuania, describing its vestiges inspiredly and with love. That's why many Lithuanians admired  and, at lesser extent, admire his poetry as well as works of other Polish writers (not necessary Lithuanian Poles), that didn't ignore the ancient Lithuania. 
But... Do you think, i hadn't known all this, what T. V. says, before? :) Linas Lituanus 10:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I didn't think you might find that essay informative. On the other hand I had an impression that some other Lithuanian users who dispute my every word would benefit from such example of different perspective on Lithuanian history and what is Lithuania. It seems to me that the issue I have with our dear fellow Lithuanians above is partially a result of only one vision being taught in modern Lithuania, while in Poland the very term "Lithuania" is used in a much, much broader context. But perhaps it's just me. Anyway, it's pretty much OT here, let me know on my talk page if you're interested in what I think about the essay. //Halibutt 14:11, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's very nice that you have a Big Book about Vilnius. It's also nice that you don't know the city, but are able to make "bets" concerning it. Regarding what you did in former German areas, but you don't do anymore, (I hope you don't too). Maybe some of these young Lithuanians are behaving like old Poles, because these old Poles were once young Lithuanians. Like Pilsudski, maybe. Dr. Dan 02:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Luckily, the Lithuanians did not follow (with some exceptions) the Polish pattern of destroying historical inscriptions or cemeteries. What I've noticed however, is that they tend to ignore them or pretend they're not there. Maybe that's what they were taught to do, similarly as the Poles were taught before to think that everything German was wrong. --Lysytalk 07:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Not to overgeneralize, but I would forward a hypothesis that young nations feel they have to 'prove' themselves. Certainly during the times they did not have self-governance - be it partitions of Poland, colonialism, or membership in the Soviet paradise - all countries affected such way were subjected to policies from - whatever-ization to at the very least lack of funding and support for their own local traditions. When such countries regain independence, there is a very strong tendency to overreact - distance themselves from any beneficial influences their former occupiers/partners/whatever might have had, and rewritte history from black and white to white and black, forgetting then in the end everything is a shade of gray. I am sure then in the future more Lithuanian editors will be able to 'share' Gucewicz and admit he was not 100% Lithuanian. Until then, we have to do what we can to preserve NPOV. As for Lithuanian or Polish wiki, I have long given hope that such local projects can be NPOV, although I am really very, very positivly suprised at the NPOV level of Polish wiki (Copernicus article is much more NPOV (read: much less stressing Polish claims) then on this en wiki). But that's all mostly a digression. Now, I hope that more reasonable Lithuanian editors like Renata3 will help us achieve a compromise on issues relevant to this article. Alas, there is a tendency for such reasonable contributors to avoid the mess created in such places. Still, there is hope...-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  So this means you are less "reasonable"? M.K. 17:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, it means you miss the point (or want to miss it), but this is hardly any suprise.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  00:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Sure"....M.K. 14:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Come on, Piotrus! You usually don't write such drivel... Not to overgeneralize ...young nations feel they have to 'prove' themselves. You're from Silesia, didn't you see how your Rodacy (fellow Countrymen) had to remove the "besetz" and "frei" signs from the shitters in Wroclaw and other cities and towns in the area. On top of that I personally saw the desecration and destruction of German cemeteries all over the place (and interestingly the Jewish ones too). I think in spite of some attempt to remove various aspects of non-Lithuanian occupation, Polonization, or Russification, the response by Lithuanians has been mild in comparison to what I witnessed in Silesia. I don't remember the sanctity of cemeteries violated. Is this an  example of Poland being a "young nation" too? Or something else? Does your above paragraph apply in this case as well? Maybe it was young nations that triggered my outburst. Neither Poland or Lithuania are young nations. Furthermore no one is 100% anything, regarding ethnicity. But we say Pasteur is French nevertheless. Instead of trying to recruit Renata into this issue, take a good hard look at the whole picture yourself and see what you can do to equalize the relentless desire of Polish (and other) contributors who debase and demean the historical relevance of Lithuania, outside of being a "province" of some "superior" entity. Also this anti-Polish garbage that I read concerning Copernicus is so absurd that it smacks of the kind of history that you'd expect out of the Third Reich or Soviet Russia. Let's not allow Wikipedia to become a forum for these kinds of purposes and pretend openness and fairness, hiding behind google hits, and biased one sided sources written in the Thomas Carlyle period of historical writing. Dr. Dan 02:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Piotrus likes to hide behind other editors, but this is hardly any suprise M.K. 14:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I think Piotrus meant "young nation" in the sense of recently regained independence, so maybe "young independence" would be better words. I fully support Piotrus that such countries, be it Poland or Lithuania tend to have increased level of nationalism compared to the countries that enjoyed their independence for longer time. This said, I think that Lithuanian behaviour is much less destructive than that of Poles following WW2. Sure, parts of the Rasos Cemetery were destroyed during road construction or some Polish historic buildings decay in Vilnius without proper conservation, but this is still mild and harmless compared to the active destruction performed by Poles in Ziemie Odzyskane. What can be a bit more annoying is the Lithuanian habit of changing the spelling of the names of the Poles living there, something that was not practiced in Poland, where people could still use names like Schneider or Schmidt and were not forced to replace them with Sznajder or Szmit. I hope that such ideas are already past in  Lithuania, however. --Lysytalk 05:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, sorry to disappoint you Lysy, but the inter-state agreement on spelling of names of modern people signed in early 1990's by Poland and Lithuania has still not been fulfilled by the Lithuanian side. Which means that a Lithuanian living in Poland could safely have his name spelt properly in his passport (with all those ž, č and so on), while a Pole living in Lithuania is now able to have his passport changed so that his name does not appear in a Lithuanized form (which was a common thing until recently), but with no Polish signs allowed. And this is a problem in case of people living in our times, not to mention those who died 100 years ago or more. Šekspyras anyone..? //Halibutt 06:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

text: hahaha, this one about Šekspyras is really funny - Szekspir anyone...?--Lokyz 15:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not just funny, it keeps getting funnier and funnier each time it is repeated. All the brightest minds of Milky Way  galaxy are laughing their butts off, looking at ludicrous mis-spellings of Lithuanian folks: why are they spelling Shakespear as Šekspyras, when everybody knows, that they should spell it as Szekspir? Only Portuguese wise men might know answer to this question, but sadly it looks like their opinion does not count in Polish-Lithuanian discussions (or at at least some unbiased editors say so) Encyclopaedia Editing Dude 17:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

text: That ought to settle that matter, seeing that unbiased expertise on the subject has been brought forth. Dr. Dan 14:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

text: For me. I'll take one. Clones in other spellings keep for yourself. It is you, who judge where to link the references by the last names of book authors. Just enough to look at one edit of yours "rewritten, reworded..." If Lithuanian last name, of course, writes about nationality. Can't stop laughing. How about Baranowski last name, is it allowed to be written Baranauskas in your modern world? (Antanas Baranauskas heavily influenced by Adam Mickiewicz). As to life of the architect, he started as a Lithuanian jungle Mowgli, poor nameless orphan rased by Polish good aunty Gucewicz, so he somehow got to study engineering in Polish Academy and Polish King financied his studies, so he traveled through Europe, offering his servises as an architect, then heavilly influenced by notable French had to return to be heavily influenced by Polish Knackfuss and so on. Then bloodless uprising that ended in heavily injuries, and last will to leave all his creations to the Polish nation. Great contribution to un-nationalising Lithuanian nationalism. Nya, I will not delete this after few minutes, instead of appologising. :) Juraune 13:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

text: As Lysy pointed out, by young I meant 'recently independent'. And yes, I certainly did include Poland in that, and to the 'Ziemie Odzyskane' vandalism (of which, I have to admit, I am not that familiar, and would love to read a well-referenced article on), I would add a SPR example of Alexander Nevsky Cathedral, Warsaw. On that note I have yet to see anybody trying to "demean the historical relevance of Lithuania". Care to point out a specific example of such an instance, preferably done by one of us engaged in this discussion?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  12:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

text: P.P., I appreciate Lysy's clarification of what you meant. Not everything discussed on the talk pages has to be "sourced", as many things are considered "common knowlege". Do you believe that the German infrastructure was not removed or vandalized in Silesia or East Prussia? You need a source for that? And Hali, please, stop with the Shakespeare already. Jerzy Waszington and Wit Stwosz are tired of it too. Dr. Dan 14:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Infrastructure? That was either destroyed in IIWW or moved to SU by the Red Army. Monuments are a different issue, and I have not read almost anything about their destruction (while I would not be suprised it happend), so I'd like to read more about it (especially post-1945, i.e. post war).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  14:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're using too narrow a definition of infrastructure. Not all of it was destroyed or sent to the S.U. either. And I don't completely blame the Polish people for much of the vandalism, as the communist government had to keep stirring up this hate, in order to keep people's minds off of the fact that they could barely provide toilet paper for their "utopia". Modrzewska anyone? Dr. Dan 14:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyway, there are many more visible signs of Polish past in Vilnius than of German past in Wrocław. I believe there are many reasons for this. I'd be happy to discuss it but all this seems increasingly off-topic here :-( so maybe we should either stop or move the discussion to userspace ? --Lysytalk 15:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Maybe, just maybe it is so, becauese all the heritage is perceived not only as Polish but rather Polish-Lithuanian, or rather as Polish speaking Lithuanian past? Lithuania for centuries was tolerant, and do not divided it's citisens by language. At least a litte bit of this tolerance is left until this day.--Lokyz 15:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hopefully the tolerance will not diminish but grow instead. Most Lithuanians seem to understand that Polish language simply used to be (and to some extent still is) part of Lithuanian culture. Some other explanations could be that, after all, the Poles did not give as much reasons for Lithuanians to hate them as Germans gave to Poles. Also Vilnius was not so much destroyed and devastated by war and then by Soviets as Wrocław was. --Lysytalk 18:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes Lysy , hopefully the tolerance will not diminish but grow instead. But it certainly is not being nurtured on these talk pages lately. Since this particular talk page is getting lengthy and very, very off topic, I would  like to move the "essense" of the disagreement elsewhere, to the article Ethnic composition of Central Lithuania (another real beauty), and would like to invite anyone who has an interest in these matters to join me there. Dr. Dan 00:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

text: No I'm not too intelligent for this and I'd appreciate your enlightenment. You're welcome to use my talk page if you feel this does not belong here. --Lysytalk 05:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm trying to move off of this page, but unsuccessfully. Your statement, Irpen, regarding Wroclaw seems odd, since unlike the multi-cultural Vilnius, Breslau had been almost completely Germanized for over seven hundred years. The destruction and havoc that took place there from the war and by the Soviets, was not done to Poland or to Poles. The concept struck me as an odd and awkward comparison, as you wrote it. But I still think you to be intelligent anyway. Dr. Dan 02:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Come on, the names of both Vilnius and Breslau start with "W", this is not a coincidence. --Lysytalk 05:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Venclova's essay 

message: Can this be unportected now? It's been like this for a month now. And last edit to talk page was 10 days ago. Renata 23:43, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm still wondering. You could unprotect it, but I'm not sure any problems were solved here at the talk page. Which means that, with all probability, the same old story would be resumed the very moment you unprotect it. //Halibutt 01:57, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unprotect?

message: For the record, I'm not sure if "Werki: palace of the Wittgensteins" image is the right illustration for this article. The picture shows the Wittgensteins palace, which is one of the previous side office buildings. As far as I remember Gucewicz designed the main palace (torn down by Wittgenstein), and several other buildings, but not necessarily the side office buildings. Need to be checked. --Lysytalk 14:48, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Image

message: Just checking how far we are from consensus now. Support as many options as you like. Please do not oppose any (will be removed). --Lysytalk 07:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mind that this survey is for indication only and not a rename vote, as no formal WP:RM request has been filed. And I strongly believe that rename should not be forced unless some sort of consensus is reached. --Lysytalk 19:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: # Support. --Lysytalk 07:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Gucevičius/Gucewicz should be presented as a Polish-Lithuanian architect

message: # Support. --Iulius 08:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The article should be named [[Laurynas Gucevičius]]

message: # Support. - First choice Orionus 12:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The article should be named [[Laurynas Gucevičius/Wawrzyniec Gucewicz]] (with appropriate redirects) 

message: # Support. Second choice. --Lysytalk 07:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The article should be named [[Wawrzyniec Gucewicz]]

message: There is a clear consensus on the statement that he should be presented as a Polish-Lithuanian architect. On the other hand have the obvious lack of consensus on the naming: not surprisingly the "Polish" editors support Wawrzyniec Gucewicz while the "Lithuanian" support Laurynas Gucevičius. I guess we have to acknowledge this difference and live with it for now. Can we agree that there will be no changes to his name until this is settled in discussion ? If we can agree on this, then we could unprotect the article (and guard it against pushing either way before further agreement is reached). --Lysytalk 06:46, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A wise suggestion Iulius 06:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: No renaming without a proper WP:RM is a standard.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  15:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I meant embargo on any name changes or similar edits within the article, not only its title. But this needs to be supported by more editors than just Iulius and myself before the article can be unprotected. --Lysytalk 07:41, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess you know what I think, but I'll say it one more time. I believe this article should not have been moved to where it is now in the first place. Further, the guy in question did not even know the name his article is at during his lifetime, which is IMO enough to move it back. But if that would make anyone happier we could agree to have it here for some time. This would be inaccurate and would not further the goals of wikipedia (as we'd violate both accuracy and verifiability, not to mention other conventions), but would at least make our Lithuanian friends feel better. But then, what should be done after some time? Should we return to the same discussion, with the same arguments, same sources and... same outcome? I say let's move it back to where it was in the first place, then we could think of moving it to Laurynas Gucevičius, Laurentius Gucewicz or any other place. //Halibutt 23:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, apparently it's not; there's plenty of his works and projects preserved to our times and it seems none of them bears his Lithuanized name. I know he might have felt GDLian more than Polish or Lithuanian, but so far there's no proof he ever used the name of Laurynas Gucevičius. On the contrary, it seems evident that he was using the name of Wawrzyniec Gucewicz. //Halibutt 08:09, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Right, his family might have been Lithuanian. However, there's not a single instance of him using Lithuanian or even mentioning the Lithuanized version of his name. Not to mention the fact that there is not a single mention of that name in contemporary works of other people. Or is there? But anyway, there's no need to argue as both of us seem to share similar view here. //Halibutt 20:01, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

text: His family came from GDL. To call him Lithuanian, however, is no less misleading as calling him, or anybody from PLC, Polish. He was influenced to varying degrees by both Polish and Lithuanian cultures. This is why I think for all noblility (and other educated and more or less polonized social classes) we should avoid Polish or Lithuanian and stick with Polish-Lithuanian, adding place of birth (like GDL) and such. Polish is sometimes acceptable, especially for szlachta from the Crown given that they were not subject to any 'lithuanization' or anything like that, but even so I'd think that calling them just Polish can lead to confusion of 'Polish then' and 'Polish today', and thus 'Polish-Lithuanian' is still prefferable. Unfortunatly some people think the world will end if they admit their hero was not pure-blooded Lithuanian (or Pole), and thus we have such book-lenght discussions going in circles...-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Survey conclusion 

message: Halibutt and M.K.: I'm fed up with your fruitless dispute here. I believe I was the last one following it and I'm taking this article off my watchlist now. --Lysytalk 15:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry! M.K. 16:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry Lysy, I was slandered and thought I deserve at least an explanation, but this is indeed not the right place. I'm waiting for MK to take it to RfC, otherwise I'd do it myself as I'm fed up with such behaviour myself. //Halibutt 03:59, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enough