Talk:Ushuaia

message: What is a city or a town or a hamlet should not be defined in Wikipedia. Let another decide about it. And they dit it: See Ushuaia ya no será la ciudad más austral del mundo. Chileans and Argentines decided that Puerto Williams IS the southernmost city of the world:
* Ushuaia claims to be the "Southernmost city in the world." ... is false
* The main reasons that Ushuaia can claim ... is non-sense, 
* Puerto Williams has very little productive activities and most of its population are military ... is a NOT Neutral point of view (and this is an article about Ushuaia not PW)
--Keysanger (talk) 23:02, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not entirely accept your argument. Remember that "city" is an English word and "cuidad" is Spanish. Argentina and Chile are Spanish-speaking countries. They can squabble about the slogan as much as they like, and they can even agree amongst themselves which is entitled to use the slogan "southernmost city", but this does not make it a fact for an English-language encyclopedia. I think you would be hard pressed to find any English-language speaker who would consider a settlement of 2000 people to constitute a city. A village, yes. A town, maybe. A city, no. Ushuaia's population of 60,000 plus and its status as a regional capital give it much more credibility as a city.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.240.61.2 (talk) 07:38, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ushuaia ya no será la ciudad más austral del mundo 

message: From the article: "Some tours also visit the Lighthouse at the End of the World, made famous by Jules Verne in the novel of the same name." -- I've been to Ushuaia and I visited this lighthouse, I'm just wandering if this lighthouse really is the one Jules Verne was referring to. If it is so (if it is confirmed, with sources, the complete package), maybe a link to the Lighthouse at the End of the World should be provided in this paragraph, and at the novel's article a link pointing to this article as a reference to the lighthouse Jules Verne was writing about in the novel. Anyone knows if this is confirmed? --A/B 'Shipper 女 (talk) 13:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the article The Lighthouse at the End of the World he was inspired by a lighthouse in Isla de los Estados. If its true this lighthouse are not the same as the lighthouse of Ushuaia that is promoted as the lighthouse of the end of the world. Dentren | Talk 22:26, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  the Lighthouse at the End of the World 

message: Thanks to those who helped sort this one out, I have tried sorting the mess of the talk pages left behind, while the histories are a bit confused at least the talk pages are now coherent, SqueakBox 13:59, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambiguation page

message: The article says "local birds, penguins and seawolves on the islands in the Beagle Channel."  I'm guessing "seawolves" is a reference to Orca, not to Seawolf (fish).  I've changed the article to reflect this.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SethML (talk • contribs). 
:Seawolves is probably a direct translation of the  Spanish Lobo marino, the South American Sea Lion. I will fix it. Dentren | Talk 14:14, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seawolves?!? 

message: Will the anonymous editor please correct PW? It's in Chile! I don't want to revert all your edits, but I will unless this is fixed. Look at an atlas. Archernewland 20:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Puerto Williams, Chile

message: I removed the following pic because it was embedded, a 4MB size is not reasonable, please help by making a thumb or link to the proper picture.
ushu9.jpg
Callmeback (talk) 10:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Huge pic removed 

message: Hi 201.255.236.99,
you insist to write "it is".
In my opinion and the opinion of the "comite de frontera" "it is not"
We should explain to the reader what is going on with the name: what, who, where, etc. It is a very controversial statement to say "it is". Of course the "comite de Frontera" don't think so and the resolution of a chamber of deputies is very nebulous. And it is the resolution of a comitee of the chamber, not the chamber.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keysanger (talk • contribs) 22:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  what, who, where

message: All the references plus the text in the section "History of settlement" point towards the first Europeans in the area to be British missionaries who were engaged in a religious mission to take Christianity to the local long term inhabitants, Yaman or Selk’nam peoples. So it is not really correct to call these missionaries 'colonists' since their long term objectives were not really consistent with a colonial presence and they left the area once most of the Selknam people died off, mainly due to European diseases Chuckarg33 (talk) 16:39, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name Ushuaia 

message: There seems to be some contradiction in the references used as to what the people of Ushuaia were actually called or named. In tierra del fuego the Ona is the accepted name for the native population but then some authors use Selk’nam for those around Ushuaia while others authors use Yámana. Shouldn't the article use only one name for those inhabitants of Ushuaia pre-European arrivals? Chuckarg33 (talk) 16:39, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Selknam/Ona and Yamana/Yaghan are different nomadic people, the Selknam lived in the inland of Tierra del Fuego by hunting guanacos and tha Yaghans lived in the area of the Beagle Channel.. Maybe there where "sightings" of both groups in Ushuaia, but I think the selknams have little reasons to visit the woody, wet and montanious area of Ushuaia so the first inhabitants must surely by Yaghans.Dentren | Talk 19:26, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well then I've gone through and changed it to be the Yaghans and not Selknam, but we would need a correct reference for this. Chuckarg33 (talk) 05:37, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Native peoples of Ushuaia 

message: RE sentence in History section: "That same year, the Argentine President Julio Argentino Roca sought to increase the Argentine presence by promoting establishment of a penal colony for re-offenders, modeled after Tasmania, Australia." 
When I first wrote that History section I added in a motive for Pt Roca's establishing of a penal colony but now that I've done more edits I realize that it was a POV push which doesn't belong in Wikipedia. Therefore I edited out the previous sentence, but editors changed it back. I think that if it is to stay that then we need a reference to back it up so as to avoid own POV. All the reference says is:"DECRETO DE JULIO A. ROCA FIJANDO EN TIERRA DEL FUEGO LA CÁRCEL DE REINCIDENTES. La Sub-prefectura de Bahía Thetis vuelve a Ushuaia." 
ie by google: "ACT OF JULY A. ROCA AFFIRMING IN TIERRA DEL FUEGO prison recidivism. The Sub-prefecture Thetis Bay back to Ushuaia." but I'm sure that a "decreto" is an "executive order" by a president. 
The reference www.tierradelfuego.org.ar/historia/ushuaia does mention that the penal colony was modeled after Tasmania but not what the intentions of President Roca were, beyond sending the worst criminals to Ushuaia   Chuckarg33 (talk) 09:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pt Roca's intentions 

message: Changes proposed to the current version
Issue nr	Issue                                                                                	Proposed change
1       	(Smaller settlements lie further south, but Ushuaia is the southernmost of any size.)	remove this sentence or reformulate to Smaller settlements lie farther south, but none reaching more than 3000 inhabitants. (as proposed by linkeminas)
2       	"NYT" citation                                                                       	put it back to back the statement that Ushuaia is considered/called the southernmost city
3       	Tourism section                                                                      	add sentence explaining the importance of being the southernmost city for tourism
4       	Vandalism/Edit wars                                                                  	add this  to the entrance.
Dentren | Talk 15:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Constructive proposal

message: *Boston Globe 2008
*San Francisco Chronicle 2006 ("bills itself" - also mentions Puerto Williams's claim
*Daily Telegraph 2001
*The Independent 2002
*New York Times 2004
*The Age 2008
*The Hindu 2007
*Toronto Sun 2009
*St Petersburg Times 2003
*UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office
*National Geographic
*Encyclopaedia Britannica  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.223.193 (talk) 18:28, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Ushuaia]]

message: I could not personally find any source that comes out unambiguously to say Puerto Williams is the southernmost city however an article (I found offline) in The Sunday Times on 21 December 2008 entitled "JOURNEY TO THE END OF THE EARTH" provides a good discussion of the relative merits of both Ushuaia and Puerto Williams (discussing what makes a place a city). There are also quite a few articles that mention Puerto Williams claim but also mentioning Ushuaia at the same time. This Independent article describes Puerto Williams as "a city proud of its "most southerly town in the world" title" which is really confusing for this discussion! I also found a few articles describing Puerto Williams as the most southerly town in the world.
: [ Online link for The Sunday Times, 21 Dec 2008  Elphion (talk) 18:34, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Puerto Williams]]

message: Wikipedia can not favour a city with the title "the southernmost city". And there are clearly different views of the issue. We abstain to decide and let the reader the facts and meanings. 
I think that the solution given in Puerto Williams should be applied to Ushuaia (20.5.2009):
:Puerto Williams is sometimes considered the southernmost city in the world, a title that is disputed by Ushuaia located on the oposite northern side of Beagle Channel.
For Ushuaia:
:Ushuaia is sometimes considered the southernmost city in the world, a title that is disputed by Puerto Williams located on the oposite southern side of Beagle Channel.
Then a passage with some briefly explain follows:
:Based on some definitions of what a city is ...
--Keysanger (talk) 14:24, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Likeminas (talk) 16:26, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal

message: Ushuaia (pronounced [u'swaia] in Spanish, /u'ʃwaia/ in English) is the capital of the Argentine province of Tierra del Fuego and the southernmost city of its size in the world.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.223.193 (talk) 15:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 2

message: Ushuaia (pronounced [u'swaia] in Spanish, /u'ʃwaia/ in English) is the capital of the Argentine province of Tierra del Fuego and is widely regarded as the southernmost city in the world.  Smaller settlements lie farther south, but none reaching more than 3000 inhabitants.
That seems more accurate than the current proposals, which to my mind seem to lend undue weight to arguments in favour of Puerto Williams.   Those arguments seem to be based solely on the Chilean authorities reclassifying PW as a city to boost the tourist trade.  Wikipedia exists to provide information, its not a booster for the Chilean tourist industry.  Justin talk 00:10, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal 3 

message: : in the newspaper Clarín reported that the designation "Southernmost city in the world" was transferred to Puerto Williams by a joint committee from Argentina and Chile, but this information was denied by Argentine authorities,-REF- http://www.diputados.gov.ar/dependencias/dcomisiones/periodo-116/116-1243.html Draft resolution of the Chamber of Deputies of Argentina -REF-
The given reference doesn't fit the statement.
The reference is a to a meeting of the "COMISIONES DE TURISMO Y DE DEFENSA NACIONAL" (what a mix!), and they edited a "Proyecto de resolución" (not a resolution), that should declare:
: La Cámara de Diputados de la Nación
: RESUELVE:
:Expresar preocupación ante la difusión de la falaz información publicada en un medio de comunicación masiva, sobre el traspaso del slogan que caracteriza a la ciudad de Ushuaia como la ciudad más austral del mundo a la población chilena de Puerto Williams."
The page does not show any resolution and the proyect only "express preocupation" and nothing more. That is right so, then the Argentine Congress could not declare which is the southernmost city of the world.
So I corrected the text.
--Keysanger (talk) 13:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  denied by Argentine authorities ?? 

message: This should settle this ongoing controversy of whether or not Puerto Williams is a City or just a Town: 
Entidad Urbana. Conjunto de viviendas concentradas con más de 2.000 habitantes, o entre 1.001 y
2.000 habitantes, con el 50% o más de su población económicamente activa, dedicada a actividades
secundarias y/o terciarias. Excepcionalmente, los centros que cumplen funciones de turismo y recreación
con más de 250 viviendas concentradas y que no alcanzan el requisito de población se consideran
urbanos.
Ciudad (Cd). Entidad urbana que posee más de 5.000 habitantes.
Pueblo (Pb). Entidad urbana con una población que fluctúa entre 2.001 y 5.000 habitantes, o entre
1.001 y 2.000 habitantes, con el 50% o más de su población económicamente activa dedicada a actividades
secundarias y/o terciarias. Excepcionalmente se asimilan a pueblo los centros poblados, que
cumplen funciones de turismo y recreación con más de 250 viviendas concentradas y que no alcancen
el requisito de población. 
This is copied direct from http://www.ine.cl/canales/chile_estadistico/territorio/division_politico_administrativa/pdf/dpa2001.pdf (hope copyright isn't an issue here?)
From the above it is clear that Puerto Williams is only just considered an 'urban entity' with its 2500 odd residents. Ushuaia passes this threshold by some 60.000 odd residents. 
Note that the 2007 report also follows this rule by calling Pica, with 2642 people, a Town ie Pueblo Chuckarg33 (talk) 15:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes there is a contradiction between INE's stadarts and PW claims.Dentren | Talk 16:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: May be, but note that throughout this last debate the definition of city was never considered from the countries' point of view. Ushuaia has 20 times the population of Puerto Williams but this hasn't discouraged the proponents of Punta Arenas. 201.255.237.47 (talk) 17:56, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  But all we can do here in wikipedia is present what others state to avoid personal research and hold a NPOV etc So all we have is what the countries say to define what a city is, in this case, specifically what Chile and what Argentina consider a City and what they consider a Town (its pointless to use the Sweedish definition obviously). Hence for that slogan Ushuaia is 'the southernmost city' while puerto williams is the 'southernmost town', because the other settlements further south aren't considered 'poplation urbana' etc Chuckarg33 (talk) 06:50, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition of a City by Republic of Chile  

message: Can someone tidy up the References throughout the article? I'm guilty of several poorly built ones but I'm not all that confident about doing it properly. Several are repeated unfortunately and its generally messy.Chuckarg33 (talk) 16:43, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  References need Fixing 

message: Re this new entry:
"Punta Arenas, Chile, is also sometimes considered the southernmost city. While north of Ushuaia, it has a considerably larger population."
Are not both Punta Arenas and Ushuaia considered 'Cities', or defined as as City by both countries? so then this sentence really isn't necessary here. Its seems to be a personal opinion too, does it not? not NPOV.
Please add any thoughts here, otherwise I think the words above should be deleted from wikipedia. Chuckarg33 (talk) 06:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you read the discussion above??  "City" means different things to different people.  We are not pushing a definition here, not yours, not mine, not any country's; just reporting what the sources say. The sentence you quote is perfectly in line with what I've seen in the sources. By suppressing this information, you would hide from readers that a significant number of sources list PA as southernmost city. WP is not the appropriate place to settle the argument. Elphion (talk) 13:23, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, but, what? I did read and take part in the discussion above and a City certainly does mean different things to different people, for example the Swedes consider a City anything that has more than 200 people. But Chile and Argentina both consider Ushuaia AND Punta Arenas as cities (more than 5000 population) so both countries would classify Ushuaia as a more southern city than Punta Arenas. I agree that WP should not settle the argument but using a source from 1908 is surely wrong, since in 1908 Ushuaia was just a small town with 20 odd houses and punta arenas was then a city. Also one does need to decide which sources should be preferred when the information is contradictory, should we not? I mean that MTV source is nice and does say Punta Arenas "the self-proclaimed "southernmost city in the world." but the same MTV article prints that "Punta Arenas, Chile, a town" In this case we would actually ignore MTV's classification of Punta Arenas as a 'town' and still consider PA a City, would we not? Please let me know what you think of this. Chuckarg33 (talk) 04:15, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

text: So what would you do when sources are contradictory, as they are here. Chuckarg33 (talk) 04:15, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Nobody's arguing about old sources from 1908.  Many of the sources Googled above (NB: not just the ones listed) are recent and not from South America, and they variously call PW, U, and PA southernmost. Most are simply judging for themselves what a "city" is.  So regardless of the official definition by either country, there is a spread of opinion.  We should report that as we have been reporting it:  U is commonly considered southernmost, but (for various reasons) PA and PW are occasionally mentioned as alternatives.  And that's a pretty positive statement for Ushuaia. Elphion (talk) 05:16, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Also, referring to a city as a town is not contradictory (at least in English); it happens all the time.  E.g., the lead column in The New Yorker (magazine published in New York City) is called "The Talk of the Town". The applicable population for "town" is broader than for "city".  And of course for some people "city" comes with other criteria (like a cathedral).  Elphion (talk) 05:37, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's fine. Its better to have in the text that they all use or consider themselves the southernmost city for whatever reason and not argue too much here over who is right. I think though that most consider a City larger than a Town and that 'talk of the town' is more of a figure of speech. Chuckarg33 (talk) 06:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: All I'm pointing out is that it's common in English to call a city a town -- so that the articles using both are not contradictory. Elphion (talk) 16:04, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Oh, ok, fair enough. Chuckarg33 (talk) 06:54, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

text: I don't really think that's an appropriate way to handle things, but if I'm right it looks like it's been deleted. — e. ripley\talk 14:26, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, I not sure what you mean here, can you please elaborate? Chuckarg33 (talk) 06:54, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The way you are dissmissing references mentioning PA as the southernmost city could be aplied to the refernces mentioning Ushuaua as the suthernmost city. You must remenber that the official denifition by countries should be taken into account but they are not above other sources and qualifications for the settlements.Dentren | Talk 11:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Because this article here is about Ushuaia and not Puerto Williams or Punta Arenas, I've moved the last two paragraphs in the southernmost city section to the new article Re: Southernmost city in the world. I believe we should keep this article more closely related to Ushuaia and take the controversies over to the more appropriate article. Please see talk page too as that article is still under construction Charlie (talk) 11:47, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Punta Arenas vs Ushuaia New entry in 'Southernmost City' 

message: Because I read that the southernmost issue is "disputed" in the article of Puerto Williams, I guess it's fair to include it here too. I proceed then as I hope no feelings could be hurt.  Sobreira (parlez) 08:12, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  reciprocity 

message: Does the gay marriage thing really belong here?  I mean, really, it's a tiny little town with nothing but blue sea and sky between it and Antarctica.  Does every place on Earth need a discussion of gay marriage in Wikipedia?? Based on teh gays in my office, I am sure there are dozens of other online resources gays can access which have ad nauseum discussions of every detail of gay legal rights in Ushuaia and every other place imaginable.  I have removed it due to complete lack of relevance.24.17.192.214 (talk) 04:44, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ushuaia as the venue of the first gay marriage in Latin America seems notable. The argument that there are other sources in the world doesn't make a strong case for removing information from WP. -- Elphion (talk) 18:02, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: And by the way, the phrase is ad nauseam. 70.107.238.239 (talk) 21:50, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Gay Marriage

message: There is an inconsistency.  In the text and the yearly extreme, the coldest temperate is -21C (-5.8F), but in the month of July in the table the record low is -25.1C (-13.2F).  I can't read the original sources in Spanish though.  Lies from the tablecloth (talk) 02:05, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The Spanish version's text agrees with the table (-25.1C), which is sourced to government data.  Unless there's another source, that's probably what we should use. -- Elphion (talk) 17:49, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: No. If you go to the Secretaria de Mineria link, the record low of -21.0C is found there under the title "Estacion Río Olivia" under the term "Tempertura minima absoluta" (absolute minimum temperature). The geographic coordinates point to Ushuaia. Even the website for record highs and lows indicates a record low of -21.1C.  That record low of -25.1C is a lie and was probably an unsourced change to the climate data. Ssbbplayer (talk) 17:48, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Climate Data

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I propose that the "Symbols" section of this article should be removed. That information belongs in (and is already in) the info-box, rather than its own section of the article.
Alatorr (talk) 04:43, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to Remove "Symbols" Section 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: While it’s true that the /ʃ/ exists in Rioplatense Spanish, Ushuaia is pronounced /u’swaja/ nonetheless by Argentines. 190.19.144.181 (talk) 04:21, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

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