Talk:Outsider art/Archive 1

message: It seems to me that the "Art Brut" entry should probably be absorbed into the "Outsider art" entry.  I've just dropped in, so I don't want to do that unilaterally. Any opinions?--BTfromLA 18:32, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Talk 

message: If there's a need to offer a link to the band Art Brut, please create a seperate disambiguation page for the term "Art Brut," which is now redirected here.  While a discussion of Art Brut is included on the Outsider Art page, it is not correct to say that "this article is about the Art Brut movement." BTfromLA 14:47, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do this yourself if you feel so strongly about it, rather than just removing the link without doing it.  Art Brut is a redirect, if it's not just another name for Outsider Art then perhaps it ought not to be a redirect at all?  Morwen - Talk 15:28, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  You should have accepted responsibilty for this, though, since you are the one who wanted the change. As to why it was redirected and how Art Brut relates to Outsider Art--did you bother to read even the intro of the article you were editing?  BTfromLA 16:38, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, obviously.  When I made that original edit I was uncomfortable with the exact wording, but couldn't think of another way to put it that wouldn't be horribly confusing, and certainly didn't feel confident enough to make Art Brut a redirect.  I'm sure you would have reacted even more hostilely to that.  Explaining the exact relation between the two terms would obviously be too long for a disambiguation note at the top, I was hoping that editors would be tolerant enough to allow a slight glossing for the sake of expediency.  Morwen - Talk 22:34, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough, Morwen. Sorry if I came across as hostile. I think we have a satisfactory resolution now, yes?  BTfromLA 00:21, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes.  Sorry if you think I over-reacted, perhaps I did - but is quite galling to be accused of adding vanity links... Morwen - Talk 08:45, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That was my mistake, I jumped to that conclusion based on the state of that band article at the time. Started our exchange on a bad foot. My apology.  BTfromLA 18:37, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambiguating Art Brut the band

message: I have removed the links that were not in English, were not working at all, were linking to single artists rather than encyclopedic overviews of the field, and those designed to promote non-established artists.  The links section should be very short, limited to a short list of the best resources for futher study of the topic at hand.  
Note to user 67.165.73.143: please leave comments on the talk page, or in the comments line of your edits--it is inappropriate to embed personal comments in the body of the article.  BTfromLA 19:32, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links 

message: All the material has been incorporated except the "see also" of Alex Grey.  - brenneman(t)(c) 03:36, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect from [[Visionary art]] 

message: Hi folks, 
would anyone like to comment on Cosmic ray deflection society which is facing a vote for deletion? Each chapter of the CRDS supports an outsider artist, so I thought some of the people watching this article might also be familiar with the CRDS and be able to attest to its notability. Mamawrites 15:16, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Any comments on this related article? 

message: I've removed Adam Dario Keel and the image of his work again, on grounds that he is not one of the small handful of the most-recognized outsider artists. In my view, and I believe this is the consensus of editors here, those few are the only ones who should be featured on this page.  Please see the other discussions on this talk page about this issue.  Keel doesn't even have a Wikipedia stub article about him--the person interested in Keel should start by creating one, and by linking him to the larger list of outsider artists, rather than just asserting that Keel belongs in the canon of outsider artists.  Because the "outsider artist" category is potentially so broad--literally thousands of people can be claimed as outsider artists, and there is an economic motivation for people to list "their" outsider here--it is my view that we need to be strict about which artists are cited as examples in this short article, limiting the list to the most widely exhibited and written about--Wolfli, Darger, Gill, etc.  This is not to say that Keel is not a legitimate artist, or a legitmate "outsider"--just that his work is not remotely as well known or influential in the field as the other artists mentioned here.  It isn't our job to create reputations, only to report on the situation as it exists. BTfromLA 15:22, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keel and other marginal "marginals" 

message: Would Lautréamont be considered outsider artist?--Sonjaaa 16:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say no. First, Because Lautreamont was, as far as I know, intending to write work of literary value--a key defining trait of outsider art is that it isn't clear at all that the creator saw what they were doing as "art."  The other problem with Lautreamont in this context is that his work was entirely literary (wasn't it?). The "Outsider Art" category, though it admits people who include writing in their work, is generally limited to work that is seen in relation to visual art objects.  There is another, less well established, category of "outsider literature." But Lautreamont, a strange but very sophisticated writer, probably wouldn't be admitted there either.  BTfromLA 07:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lautréamont?

message: The title, "Axel of the world," is common on the web. However, it seems to be a misspelled translation of the original German Weltachse mit Haase. Please comment!EAS 00:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Axel of the world" - a misspelled translation?  

message: I removed the following addition from the "Notable Outsider Artists" section:
*Nick Blinko Vocalist/Guitarist for British Anarcho-Punk band Rudimentary Peni. Much of his notable work is featured as artwork for the bands albums, among others such as his peice "Skeleton Series"
He is marketed as an Outsider artist and his work is represented in high-level outsider art collections.  The question is whether he rises to the level of notability for Wikipedia's short list.  To my knowledge, he is far less recognized than all of the other names on our list, so I vote "cut"--he should be included in the Outsider artists category, but not featured in the main article.  But since this listing isn't the usual promotional spam that plagues this article, and I invite arguments to the contrary.  In my view, we have to be strict about limiting this list to a few of the best-established figures (at the level of Wolfli, Ramirez and Darger), due to the enormous number of candidates who can claim "outsider" status.  BTfromLA 22:41, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nick Blinko--notable enough? 

message: Since art brut is a pivitol subject in the development of the modern day notion of "outsider art" it would be extremely beneficial and more clear if art brut had its own page rather than redirecting to outsider art.  Even though the content of the outsider art article currently indicates otherwise, the redirecting process implies that the two are synonymous.
I move for an independent art brut page which also links to the outsider art page.
69.76.183.210 19:12, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest that you develop the Art Brut coverage here, first.  If it then seems as if a seperate article makes sense (either because you've clarified how the two subjects are very distinct or because the length of the article is becoming unwieldy), then we can spin it off.  If the other article will basically just recapitulate what is in this article, I don't see much value in the change. Do you think that the current article misrepresents Art Brut somehow?  BTfromLA 03:50, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concerning Art Brut 

message: Propose merge from Art extraordinary. The latter is just a synonym already explained in this article, along with material also already covered at Angus McPhee.
The Art extraordinary article was also multiply tagged for various problems - including lack of notability and probable conflict of interest (it was created by User:Artextraordinarytrust) - that remain unaddressed apart from an anon editor removing the tags. Gordonofcartoon 11:42, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks to me that the Art Extraordinary Trust might merit an article--seems to be a real institution that has been the subject of one or two newspaper articles--but the term is not, so far as I know, an accepted synonym for or subcategory of Outsider Art.  It looks to me as if this is a name one person is promoting for her gallery in Scotland; evidently that person or someone affiliated with her made these posts.  Unless I see evidence that this term is used beyond that gallery, I'd have to say that the Art Extroardinary article should be deleted, and there's no real reason to include any mention of it in the outsider art article.  Does anyone else think differently? BTfromLA 21:23, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PS: A google search for "art extraordinary" turns up a few refernces to the Art Extraordinary Trust in Scotland.  There's no indication that anyone not connected with that organizaion uses the term.  BTfromLA 21:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger proposal

message: I've cut the terms Irrealism and Art extraordinary from the vocabulary section on the grounds that they do not have any widespread currency in the discussion of outsider art.  I'm placing this notice, in case anyone can show otherwise. (Also, I'm a bit confused about the vocabulary list--is it a quotation from "Raw Vision"?  If so, we should probably make that clearer and clean it up.) BTfromLA 16:59, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing dubious vocabulary entries 

message: How do you reverse the redirects? The title should be Outsider art, not Outsider Art. See most of the articles in :Category:Art genres for standard capitalization. Clubmarx 23:09, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverse redirects 

message: Hello, I removed the disambiguation link to Art Brut (band), again, for two reasons:
#there is a disambiguation page now for Art Brut (you didn't even check)
#even if the disambiguation page wasn't there, a disambiguation link from Outsider Art to Art Brut (band) would be as useful as one from Jesus to Madonna (singer) - both terms are related in an indirect way, but nobody would look it up there.
-- 790 (talk) 21:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The disambiguation link should stay, do NOT remove it. If you look up "art brut" in lowercase it redirects here, so the disambig. page becomes entirely useless. Also, your second example is completely ridiculous. "Madonna" and "Jesus" aren't the same word. Charles 21:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But "Art brut" and "outsider art" are "the same word", right? -- 790 (talk) 07:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Perhaps the solution is to assign the lowercase "art brut" to the disambiguation page?  BTfromLA (talk) 22:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I took my own advice above, and removed the disambig notice from this page.  I don't think there should be any mix-up at this point.  BTfromLA (talk) 22:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation link 

message: It seems to me that the list of external links has grown long and digressive, losing sight of the aim of being really useful for a reader hoping to learn more about the topic.  I'd like to reduce the list to the major institutions connected with outsider art who have info-rich web sites, and limit it to English-language links. Any thoughts or objections?  Ditto for "see also, " which currently included things like a link to an article about an episode of The Simpsons that has an outsider-art plotline.  BTfromLA (talk) 16:49, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I went ahead and cut the "external links list"--please comment here if you think there are any important omissions. A couple of the major institutions had rather information-poor and/or entirely non-English pages, so I dropped them on those grounds. BTfromLA (talk) 17:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trim the list of links? 

message: I've removed the Raw Vision link for now. I don't feel it's appropriate, as it's basically a commercial site where artists can pay to advertise about themselves. This is ripe for abuse and self-promotion. I'd like to get some consensus on this. I've also removed a second reference to Intuit site - but have left the first one in. Setwisohi (talk) 09:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Link for assessment: Raw Vision. Reason for inclusion: it is the magazine on Outsider Art and hence very useful information for anyone interested in the subject. It is not basically a site where artists pay to advertise themselves: it is basically a site of a renowned magazine that also has a lot of additional material on the subject. See the links on the left of the home page. Ty 10:48, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep per Ty. Johnbod (talk) 12:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: While in general I agree that we need to be vigilant about keeping  commercial links off of this page, I'd make an exception for Raw Vision, for the reasons Ty states. Please restore the link.  ("The Art Cafe," a not particularly notable organization, is a more dubious link... I'd support dropping that one.) --BTfromLA (talk) 15:28, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good points made and you all incline me to agree. But is it possible that instead of linking straight to the front cover (?) of Raw Vision (and some pretty blatant selling) we link to a good article or review of Art Brut within Raw Vision? Setwisohi (talk) 15:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I had the same thought myself, but I couldn't check it out as the pages weren't loading properly. I was thinking the "about" page or something generally informative of that nature, rather than a specific article, but I'm not overly concerned.  Ty 01:26, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the front page is actually probably the most immediately useful, although it is brazenly commercial.  But I also think this would work as an alternative.  BTfromLA (talk) 08:45, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good choice. Other pages are accessible from the menu. Ty 09:12, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

text: I'd be happy with that page too. Well found BTfromLA. Please feel free to add a link to that page to this article! Setwisohi (talk) 12:32, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've added it. Setwisohi (talk) 18:54, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: All's well. Ty 22:39, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links 

message: I just figured I'd get people's opinion first before doing it. He is really notable, more for his music (main force behind Rudimentary Peni, but also for his visual art. What is everyone's opinion?
Ungovernable ForcePoll: Which religious text should I read? 00:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Is he included in the standard literature on the subject? Ty 00:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No clue. My background is more in the punk scene than the outsider art one. But he is a notable figure due to his musical activities (and for doing the art for all their albums) and is part of the outsider art community. It could easily be referenced. His musical and visual art are really well known among the punk community. Ungovernable ForcePoll: Which religious text should I read? 01:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

text: So I did a quick search. Raw Vision magazine which is mentioned in this article (though I have no idea of it's true notability) has him in their A-Z Index of subjects with this page on him. Henry Boxer (who says he has "dealt in Outsider and Visionary Art since the 1970's") has Nick Blinko on his list of artists as well. He has an extensive page on the first website that comes up with a google search of "British outsider art." Again, as I know little of the outsider art community, I'm not sure how notable any of these sites are, but Blinko clearly has some stock in the outsider art community. I'd say he's more than worth putting in. Ungovernable ForcePoll: Which religious text should I read? 01:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Raw Vision is a good endorsement for including him. It's a notable publication on the genre. Ty 02:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should we add [[Nick Blinko]] to notable artists? 

message: Felipe Jesus Consalvos may be suitable to list as a notable outsider artist. Klyber (talk) 14:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is an endorsement of Consalvos by a former Program Director of the Intuit: http://gapersblock.com/airbags/archives/farris_wahbeh_intuit/.  Also, Consalvos' work is in the collections of The American Folk Art Museum and the Philadelphia Museum of Art. See also an exhibition at Galerie St. Etienne: http://www.gseart.com/exhibitions.asp?ExhID=498.  Klyber (talk) 15:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Felipe Jesus Consalvos 

message: I have a big problem with this article.  "Typically, those labeled as Outsider Artists have little or no contact with the institutions of the mainstream art world; in many cases, their work is discovered only after their deaths."  Examples of outsider artists that had contact with an "institution" - Daniel Johnston.  Darger.  This is a bogus definition.  
"Outsider Art has emerged as a successful art marketing category (an annual Outsider Art Fair has taken place in New York since 1992); thus the term is sometimes misapplied as a catch-all marketing label for art created by people outside the "art world" mainstream, regardless of their circumstances or the content of their work."  - Also this... why does this have to be in the bio?  Sometimes it is used to market art?  That should be a footnote... not in the bio!  Come on you guys! (UTC) (The above two unsigned paragraphs appear to have been posted by user:Cablegirl23)
:Cablegirl23:  I find it hard to understand what your objections actually are, I hope you will clarify them.  What is "bogus" about that definition, and what would be a more authentic one? I encourage you to consult and site scholarly works about outsider art to confirm or refute the definition. (By the way, Darger's work was not shown publicly, at least not to any significant degree, until after his death, and there is scant evidence that he even intended his work to be seen by others, so he does fit the "typical" pattern in the sentence you quote.)  The introduction of the article is in no sense that I understand a "bio," so I don't know what your reference to that means.  It is an article about a category of art.  It seems to me that mentioning that the category is often used to promote types of work that are not within the original defination of the category as laid out by figures such as Dubuffet and Roger Cardinal is very well worth mentioning in the intro, since this marketing-based idea is extremely widespread; just do an ebay search for "outsider art" and you'll see what I mean.  BTfromLA (talk) 07:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The "misapplication" described in the third paragraph seems to fit reasonably well with the definition in the second; that is, the two paragraphs seem almost contradictory, or at least unclear. First we are told that having "little or no contact with the mainstream art world" is "typical" of the outsider artists; then we are told that merely being "outside the mainstream art world" isn't enough. The "often" and "in many cases" phrases don't suggest critical elements of the definition. If being clinically insane really is requisite, this should be made clear; if it isn't, then exactly where is the boundary between "outsider" and insider, if not at the walls (literal or metaphoric) of the art institutions? (And, by the way, it may also be helpful to rephrase these paragraphs to avoid using the word "institution" to describe institutions both of art and of psychological treatment. That's not the point of confusion for me, though.) Spark240 (talk) 15:19, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Objections

message: On the other hand, is there any reason the Philadelphia Wireman is not included? S/he should be, I would think. Herostratus (talk) 02:38, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Philadelphia Wireman 

message: Was Francis E. Dec really an artist? Is it possible to be an artist entirely by accident? I strongly question his inclusion. Herostratus (talk) 02:36, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: An "artist by accident" is a defining trait of an outsider artist.  Most if not all of the well established figures in this area did not see themselves as artists, nor were they producing work that was offered to the public as a form of art. BTfromLA (talk) 18:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, never mind that aspect. Dec was no artist; he was a raving lunatic. Sure, being a raving lunatic doesn't preclude being an artist. But neither does it suffice for being an artist. For one thing, to begin with, Dec is a writer, not an artist. For another thing, his "work" is just a mishmash of paranoid delusion. It's the detritus of a ruined mind. It just isn't art nor was it intended as such. Sure, his ravings are funny, so what. Herostratus (talk) 13:06, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: True, Dec's work is mostly writing, with just a few drawings. So maybe he's better classed as an outsider author.  Being deluded is common among outsider artists, and is often part of the appeal of their work as a record of human imagination unconstrained by social norms--the category was invented to describe art (or things that can be viewed as art by others) made by people institutionalized as "insane," after all.  I think there is a visual appeal to Dec's work and that he can fairly be called an outsider artist, but I don't mind dropping him from the list of notables... the list is too long anyway.  Dec is not a major figure in the field, like Wolfli, Darger or Ramirez, so unless someone else objects, I won't revert your change if you cut him again.  BTfromLA (talk) 18:30, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Francis E. Dec? 

message: Restored for the moment after cut "notable" artist who isn't even notable enough to merit his own article.
Having his own article isn't a criterion for inclusion (we've just been discussing the merging of material about Art extraordinary that isn't notable enough for its own article but appears worth a mention in this one). He gets over 38,000 Google hits, which suggests some level of notability. The Czech Wikipedia thinks so, and there are some English sources like this Radio Prague feature. Gordonofcartoon 05:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I see that Tichý  has received considerable notice and some fairly high-profile exhibitions.  But this "notable" category is a constant battleground: there are many, many people who can legitimately be listed as outsider artists, far more than can be comfortably accommodated here to provide highlights of the field.  To me, it seems that the list should be limited to a small group of the very best established figures: Wolfli, Darger, people on that level. It may be that the solution, as someone suggested here a while back, is to omit the "notable artists" section of the article entirely.  (As to the Art extraordinary merger, I'm not sure what needs to be merged... it doesn't qualify as a term that has currency, and I'm not sure that the Art Extraordinary Trust really merits a mention--maybe it does; I'd like to hear about it's notability from some sources that aren't closely associated with the organization.  The valuable stuff in that article is mostly general material about Outsider Art that is already in this article.) BTfromLA 05:20, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (edit conflict) On Tichy, my first inclination when this entry appeared was to delete it as NN, but he gets a lot of ink in Europe and has been featured in several shows.  The Czech article you have pointed out is worth looking at just for the 'fotografii' links; some links have articles in English.  His technique is primitive and his photos are artistic and sexy, if it is still permissible to use that word.  Maybe someone will translate the Czech Wikipedia article one day, but until then I think he is one of the very rare red-linked additions that should stay.  --CliffC 05:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have posted new article Miroslav Tichý.  His work has been getting more coverage than ever and he had a show in NYC in February.  His photos remain artistic and sexy an "uncanny fusion of eroticism, paranoia and deliberation" (New York Times, that's what I meant); it would be nice to find a free one to illustrate the article.  I substituted a new summary for the one under 'Notable outsider artists'; it was excellent writing but seemed to be a copyright violation from page 'Miroslav Tichy' at Michael Hoppen Gallery, link worth a visit. -CliffC (talk) 14:33, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miroslav Tichý 

message: I don't really favor the term Outsider Art, or many of the other terms which define this type of art. It's gotten way too trendy to collect— David Byrne has a "Finster" and check out one of the Talking Heads album covers. I follow the Outsider Art group on Yahoo and occasionally contribute. What I have been doing for the last 32 years, is trying to Preserve Bottle Village (PBV is a 501(c)(3)CA NPO) I am one of the founding Board Members. I saw The Owl House (Helen Martins)listed and added Tressa(Grandma)Prisbrey. They are often compared as two 20th century women artists who created large scale environments. Perhaps, the ONLY TWO WOMEN! My addition has been removed twice, with "sorry, this is Folk Art and have you seen the page on Grandma Prisbrey's Bottle Village" Notably missing are other major Visionary/Outsider Art environments: Pasequan, NitWitRidge, Simon(Sam) Rodia's Watts Towers, The Orange Show, to name a few.
Grandma Prisbrey's Bottle Village was often considered Folk Art, until Outsider Art popped up. It's not Folk Art. Some people refer to it as Art Brut, Bricolage, Visionary Art, and/or Assemblage. I lean toward Visionary Art Environment. Our Congressman calls it "an eyesore."
I'm interested in what others think about this. What is the criteria for being listed? Is there a consensus? I just registered, so I'm a complete newbie— but I have added BV info to many other Wikipedia pages. Anonymously. Having my editing removed twice bugged me enough to register.
Take Care
Josocal (talk) 03:57, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, welcome to the Big Show! You make a valid point and I'll have to think about this. I wonder if there isn't a kind of unspoken archetype that outsider artists have to be outcasts, loonies, wild men. Someone with her own little house who goes by the moniker "Grandma" and wears lace collars doesn't seem to fit in with the world of "rough art", "raw art", of Wild Man Fischer or the Philadelphia Wireman etc. Herostratus (talk) 06:21, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, Josocal.  First of all, my hat is off for your work to preserve Bottle Village.  It is a scandal that the local populace and politicos haven't figured out what a treasure that is.  Or the Getty, for that matter, that spends millions to preserve some decrepit European reliefs, but ignores important local works that are in danger of being lost to history.   (I last visited it before the '94 earthquakes... I hope there has at least been some progress in restoring the damaged areas.) Off the soapbox and on to your question... the boundaries of "Outsider Art" are murky at best, and complicated by the fact that anybody who wants publicity will grab at it as a marketing label if they think it will get them attention.  I think you are correct to place the Bottle Village in the "visionary environments" category, and it might be appropriate to add the Bottle Village in the "Vocabulary" section of this article, where visionary environments are described.  Grandma Prisbrey also falls into the folk art category, as the types of work she made--bottle houses, junk assemblages--do fit into an established folk art tradition.  Howard Finster, with his evangelical Christian message and conventional art materials, also falls squarely into the "folk art" category if you ask me (and he is not included as an outsider here, though I am aware he has been described as an outsider artist in some contexts).  It's not clear-cut; there are a handful of artists who have been extensively discussed in the literature of outsider art and who belong to no other category (Wolfli, Darger, Ramirez, a few others); perhaps we should limit our notables to those.  Anyway, my two cents: much as I love Bottle Village, I would not add it to the "outsiders" list, but would be sure it is represented on the "visionary environments" and "folk art" pages.   BTfromLA (talk) 06:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing List of Outsider Artists 

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thread_title: File:Merati bird on nest.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: Someone added, then someone removed, this material from the list of outsider artists:
:
Dunno about this. One the one hand, that's a pretty good collection of refs, and they do at least discuss whether or not the man's a outsider artist, using that term. On the other hand: George Bush. Putting him in could be a kind of troll move, and I don't get the idea that the folks discussing him like him very much, which is in contrast to most of the people on the list. I'd incline to say "don't include" on the basis that his work is of a pretty mainstream type -- paintings of people and things, aspirational at least of being more or less realistic -- if untutored. If your mom took up painting as a hobby and make works like Bush's, would she really be an outsider artist? Bush is famous (for non-art stuff) and your mom's not, but if that's the only difference I can't see including him. With those refs it might be debatable, thoughHerostratus (talk) 03:21, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bush? 

message: As far back as 2008 people were noting that the list of notable outsider artists was getting too long. I suspect there are lots of vanity listings and people adding their favourite local artist. Some of those added seem to regularly selling work to and exhibiting in mainstream galleries, so are, arguably, not even outsider artists, at least by the definition in para 3. It would be good to sort the list out.
# What would be a reasonable number of Notable Outsider Artists? About ten? At the moment there are 41.
# Who qualifies? Perhaps the ten highest Google results returned?
# A clear link just before the list, saying "For a full list, see the category: Outsider Artists".
# If an artist isn't even notable enough for a Wikipedia page, they probably don't qualify for the Notable list.
This may help. Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 10:11, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: And then one may ask, in qualifying for a Wikipedia page, does an artist necessarily lose "outsider" status? If yes, then the list shortens. Jim.henderson (talk) 01:48, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously that's not an issue for those outsider artists whose fame arrived after their death, or spent their lives insitutionalised, so there are some uncontroversial candidates right away: Hampton, Wölfli, the Philadelphia Wireman, Darger. There are also others who've had plenty of press coverage and academic interest but weren't exhibiting in galleries. Looking at the list, most of the candidates are Wikipedia-notable without compromising their "outsider" status. Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 08:55, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improving the list of Notable Outsider Artists 

message: I recently axed this article list as it become truly unwieldy and linked to the article list. Two separate lists is confusing. If others disagree then the list can be reinstated via the article history. I also have a copy in my sandbox. DMT Biscuit (talk) 23:01, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of notable outsider artists 

message: I think the The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Art Terms is an outlier on this question; I can find no second source that dates the English term to the 1940s. The Oxford English Dictionary records the first known use of the term in print as the title of Roger Cardinal's 1972 book. According to Encyclopedia Britannica's article on outsider art, "The term outsider art was introduced into the lexicon in 1972 by British writer Roger Cardinal as an English-language equivalent of the French art brut." Katharine Conley ("Surrealism and Outsider Art: From the ‘Automatic Message’ to André Breton’s Collection",  Yale French Studies, no. 109 (2006): 129–43) credits Dubuffet with coining the term Art Brut in 1945, "rendered into English as outsider art by Roger Cardinal in 1972".  David Wojcik ("Outsider Art, Vernacular Traditions, Trauma, and Creativity", Western Folklore 67, no. 2/3 (2008): 179–98) says "the term outsider art was coined by Roger Cardinal in 1972 as an equivalent for the French term art brut, proposed by the modernist painter Jean Dubuffet in 1949." Great and Mighty Things: Outsider Art from the Jill and Sheldon Bonovitz Collection (Philadelphia Museum of Art, 2013) provides more detail, explaining that Dubuffet's term "was translated as 'outsider art' for British scholar Roger Cardinal's landmark book of that title, published in 1972", adding that the new term "was, in fact, coined by Cardinal's editor". (p. xi)  A few more sources are here and here. Cardinal himself says: "I am in part responsible for launching the concept of Outsider Art in so far as the coinage appeared some years ago as the title of my book (Cardinal 1972)." In view of the broad consensus about this, I'd change the origin of the term back to 1972. Ewulp (talk) 03:00, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of the term 

message: :Adding/Editing the Lead, Jean Dubuffet and art brut, Cultural context, and TerminologyPastrynami (talk) 22:02, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: English 126--Rethinking Research