Talk:List of islands of Scotland/Archive 1

message: I think the red links for the islands of Scotosay and Sgeotosaigh may be mispelling for the same island in Loch Tarbert off the coast of Harris which the scottish parliament defines as Scotasay/Sgotasaigh (gaelic).--JBellis 18:04, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Scotosay and Sgeotosaigh

message: The areas provided are not referenced and contradict those provided by Haswell-Smith. As Template:Infobox Scottish island appears on more and larger islands this is causing minor difficulties in providing a magnitude rank. Unles someone can provide references for the existing numbers I will replace them. 
Also, does anyone know precisely where the islands of Flodda (pop 11) and Grimsay A (pop 19) in the List of inhabited islands by Population Size are located? These names are not used by Haswell-Smith and whilst there are several small 'Flodday' contenders and I can't see any obvious  evidence of a second Grimsay. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I imagine that Grimsay B is the island marked "Griomasaigh" on the OS map; it lies on the B891 and is connected to Benbecula by a causeway, which would be why Haswell-Smith doesn't mention it.  Flodda is on the north side of Benbecula, east of Gramsdale, and is also connected to the larger island by a causeway. Warofdreams talk 01:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Flodda = Flodaigh on the OS map makes perfect sense. Is there any reason not to change the name to the latter? However the 'Grimsay/Griomasaigh' has lots of houses and must surely be the Grimsay B at the External Link Scottish Island Network - Population Statistics with a population of over 200. The island called Grimsay A here with a population of 19 does not seem to appear on the main list of islands in the List of islands of Scotland article - although it could be hidden away somewhere under an assumed name! There is a tidal island just north of Griomasaigh with a small settlement called Seana Bhaile and which may be called 'Fraoch-eilean'. In the absence of any other candidates I think this must be Grimsay A. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was thinking that Grimsay B must be the one we have an article on, lying between Benbecula and North Uist - the populations match up.  Changing the name of "Flodda" to "Flodaigh" makes sense to me. Warofdreams talk 13:32, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Largest islands in Scotland and Location of Grimsay B and Flodda  

message: Does the Hoy figure include the island of South Walls which is linked by causeway? And is Hoy really the same size as Bute?--JBellis 21:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, the answers should be 'yes and 'no'. I didn't realise that you meant 'exactly the same size as Bute' which of course it isn't. I have corrected the entry. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: This sounds like a good plan to me. Warofdreams talk 00:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Largest islands in Scotland 

message: The land areas used in both the list and the Infoboxes are all Haswell-Smith's estimates. We are, I think, agreed that his definition is flawed: "an Island is a piece of land or group of pieces of land which is entirely surrounded by water at Lowest Astronomical Tide and to which there is no permanent means of dry access" on the grounds that the last clause excludes Skye etc.
However, there area various islands on the article list which also fail his definition as they are tidal (e.g. Davaar, Baleshare, Shuna) .This only becomes an issue for the area rank of the islands after about No. 50, which is roughly where South Walls would be. My understanding is that until about the beginning of the 20th century South Walls was a tidal island but is now connected to Hoy by a causeway. For consistency it would ideally be treated as an island in its own right, but I can't find a reference that provides a separate land area for it. (Uncharacteristically Haswell-Smith does not supply one although he does for other tidal islands).
There are various options, but it seems to me that the most credible and consistent one is to:
* a)	define an island as 'land that is surrounded by seawater on a daily basis, but not necessarily at all stages of the tide, excluding human devices such as bridges and causeways.'
* b)	Provide South Walls with an assumed area of 'circa 850 ha'. (It is easy to see from any map e.g.  that it is very close in size to its immediate neighbour Flotta, which is 876 ha). 
I will proceed on this basis unless there are objections. Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This sounds like a good plan to me. Warofdreams talk 00:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: South Walls and all that

message: Another anomaly. Burra appears in the list of islands, but its population is distributed between West Burra and East Burra. The independent status of these bridge connected islands is confirmed here . I suspect that 'Burra' is an imposter. Ben MacDui (Talk) 10:56, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, checking on Google Maps shows that while it is often referred to as if it were a single island, there are indeed two islands connected by a bridge. Warofdreams talk 01:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Burra 

message: Islands ranked by height would be useful too. --MacRusgail 19:35, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It can be done. A list of those with heights over circa 1,000 ft would include about 22 islands. Great picture of Inchgarvie btw. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for doing this. Inchgarvie's not a picture I took. I tried to the other day, but that one came out better. Normally the bridge gets in the way. --MacRusgail 18:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Height

message: Re the above discussion about 'List issues', I started (b) but it is a lengthy exercise, and the main list would then omit smaller inhabited islands e.g. Easdale and the notable Staffa. If we were using a database that could be manipulated to create new lists automatically, it might make sense, but for now (a) seems like the path of least resistance. I have placed a short sentence at the top of the list which indicates that it is 'complete' but with the additional smaller islands. Unless anyone has a better suggestion I think this list is now pretty complete and well worth an attempt at featured status. Ben MacDui (Talk) 15:42, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Progress

message: Haswell-Smith claims that the derivation of the name is apparently that  'yoo-ist' means 'west' in Old Norse. However, having raised this at Talk:Old Norse (which sounds oddly like an instruction) those kind enough to engage state that:
:"the Old Norse word for 'west' is 'vestr' "- which is of course congruent with 'Westray', and that 
:"there are no other Scandinavian languages in which Uist can have any meaning."
If anyone can contribute any other ideas as to the derivation of the Gaelic name Uibhist which presumably long pre-dates the  anglified 'Uist' I'd appreciate it. Ben MacDui (Talk) 22:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This page lists some theories, but fails to cite any sources for them. Still, it's worth a read just to see what other theories are out there Lurker 15:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is more interesting. This claims Uist was known to the Vikings as Ivist, meaning dwelling. I'll see what the people on the Old Norse talk page think Lurker 15:11, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good detective work, and a useful reply there. I have slight concern this is veering in the direction of WP:OR but hopefully has not yet reached that shore. I will pitch in there if there are no further replies. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Derivation of 'Uist'/'Uibhist' 

message: I'd dispute listing Inchgarvie as a "former island" because it is linked to the mainland by a bridge. After all, so is Skye. I don't think the fact that the bridge depends on Inchgarvie makes any difference, it's still a bridged island Lurker 14:59, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inchgarvie 

message: The Featured List application and is on the brink of failing simply because of a lack of reviews (3 so far, minimum 4 support needed.) If folk have good reasons not to support it that's fine by me, but it would be a pity if it failed through apathy. The discussion is here. Ben MacDui (Talk) 09:47, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  FL candidature 

message: Great work on the table.  Just one question - why have you changed the Orkney Islands and Shetland Islands links to Orkney Mainland and Shetland Mainland?  Surely the former are the island groups? Warofdreams talk 02:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand your reasoning, but given that "island groups" is included in the title, that is where I would expect the links to go, and I would prefer the links to go there.  For me, the links to specific islands are useful only where there is no article on the most relevant archipelago. Warofdreams talk 23:21, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Point taken - I have suddenly discovered an urgent appointment, but I'll look at this again soon. Is there a 'replace all' function anywhere, short of copying into Word and back out again? Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:52, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good time to discover an urgent appointment ;) !  I've used AutoWikiBrowser to do the replace all.  It takes a little getting used to, but is much quicker for edits like this, or for applying the same change to many pages, than doing things by hand. Warofdreams talk 23:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank-you. I am afraid I am one of those unfortunates using OS X. Ben MacDui (Talk) 06:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Island groups

message: Although they are for the most part neither populated nor especially notable, islands with the above names can be confusing. Flodday (disambiguation) is now available as a guide for the perplexed (mostly me). Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:12, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it helps to be clear which island we are talking about. Same problem with Oronsay where the disambiguation page is less polished. Given that they translate (from several languages) as "Flat Island" and "Tidal Island" respectively it is hardly surprising that the names recurr. Finavon 00:48, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed - I won't be volunteering to create 'Eilean Dubh (disambiguation)'! Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:48, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Soemone has already started at Eilean Dubh! Finavon 16:56, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flodday, Floday, Flodaigh, Fladda, Flodda, Flotta etc. 

message: Isle Ristol article created - it is tidal but referenced as 225 ha (Haswell-Smith 1997 mentions with Tanera Mòr and in SI intro). I presume it should be in the main table (71m; 0 popn), not the smaller islands (<40ha). Agree? Finavon 23:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well spotted! Yes, it should be in the list and added to the tidal islands section too. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Dear Dr Finavon, I am feeling quite unwell as someone keeps finding new islands! Isle Ristol and Isle Martin are demoted by one rank. I will re-estimate Oronsay, Sunart when I have time and continue discussion above. Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Having re-estimated the sizes I am feeling a little better. 'Oronsay's connection mentioned. I realise the minor disambiguation of the red-linked 'Orasaigh, Sound of Harris west' and 'east' is v. clumsy but I was a bit rushed yesterday. Its somehow hard to imagine that there were not differing local names for them and that the OS was simply a bit lazy. 'Orasaigh, Traigh Bhalaig', and 'Orasaigh, Bagh a Chaise'? I have looked around North Uist and uncovered another small Flodaigh, and Ceallasaigh Mor. The latter is quite possibly >40 ha, but very hard to measure and not even absolutely certain it is an island. Views on this are welcome. Ben MacDui (Talk) 20:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid it gets worse! A search of the OS gazetteer lists 13 Orasaigh (and 1 Orasaigh Uisgeabhagh) in the Western Isles! The grid references and (my) descriptions are:
S Uist:
* South-west (30m)
* North-east
N Uist:
* N of Vallay
* Oronsay, Outer Hebrides
* head of Loch Euphort
* Loch Amhlasaraigh (west of Tobha Beag)
* Orasaigh, Sound of Harris east by the hamlet of Bagh a Chaise
these last 2 were my original N Uist 2
Benbecula:
* Orasaigh Uisgeabhagh
* Loch Uisgebhagh
* N of Meanais
Barra:
* North (38 m)
* Castlebay (west)
* Castlebay (east)
* East
I think Oronsay, Outer Hebrides is the same as Orasaigh, Outer Hebrides, Orasaigh, Sound of Harris west by the hamlet of Greinetobht and Orasaigh (in main list).  It appears to be the only one over 40 ha. The other are smaller and all are uninhabited. I propose adding this list to Oronsay with the statement that it is one of the commonest names for Scottish islands - comments/corrections? 
NB 8 Flodaigh in OS gazetteer. Finavon 23:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: None missing. I was including Flodaigh Mor and Beag, but not Fladaigh. My list is at Talk:Flodday (disambiguation) Finavon 22:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Perhaps should be a set index article rather than disambiguation. Finavon 22:01, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, an exciting new piece of policy I didn't know about. Flodaigh dismabig is perhaps more like a list than a genuine disambig, but what to call the page - 'List of Scottish islands that are similar in shape and size and are spelled something like Floday' is close, if a little verbose, and the existing point of the page is to help unwary wiki-travellers  navigate, not provide information about the islands (other than their real and virtual location). A disambiguity ambiguity perhaps? Ben MacDui (Talk) 09:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summer Isles, Oronsay and Flodaigh cont'd. 

message: Thanks to WOD for creating this. I have boldly amended the infobox and several points arise. 
# The infobox template now has (to me) indecipherable microformat information. I tried to find out what its purpose was from the User who put it there, but without much success. Kirkibost now has a external link pointer rather then the usual grid reference, although I don't know how this has been acheived. With my dodgy operating system this takes me to  with no obvious onward route to the OS map. Explantions as to how/why etc. gratefully received.
# I make the island area rank 108, from a spreadsheet I have created to keep track of the Haswell-Smith plus others data. It would be dandy if our fun new sortable table could rank things, but the only wiki-solution I can think of at present is to create a new page simply for the purpose of having these ranks displayed. 
# I changed the 'Group' to make it consistent with the main list, but that this may not be best solution. There is some chatter about this at Template talk:Infobox Scottish island. Ben MacDui (Talk) 09:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was missing the grid reference! I need to check its accuracy, but it should work. Finavon 10:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: GR is OK. Do you have information to make Uyea larger than Kirkibost? Otherwise I make them joint 107! (who started all this?) Finavon 11:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I blame Haswell-Smith. No I have no info - I have just assumed that tidal islets should be assumed to have a lower rank than non-tidal ones to avoid equal rankings, but it's purely arbitrary. The measurements can surely be only +/- 5% at best. Ben MacDui (Talk) 11:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your work on this - I filled in the infobox by comparing it with some others; looks like I miscalculated the rank.  If you are keen, we could resolve your point #2 by adding an "Area rank" column to the table. Warofdreams talk 00:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  True enough, although its a pity the table can't behave more intelligently. No doubt some boffin will come up with something soon. the alternative is currently at Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Islands by area per the note below. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Kirkibost

message: :I have retrieved the ranked populations at Island populations by rank.
:I will begin the ranking by area if flagging enthusiasm permits. Ben MacDui (Talk) 10:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now begun here, which should allow consistent use of area ranks. I will fill in any missing blanks as required.
The observant will note the page names. The current rate of activity, which is amazing, may not keep up, but if it does then some simple form of project co-ordination over an above this talk page may be useful. Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Island population ranks

message: Apologies to Finavon - the number for area was incorrect in the List overleaf and copied into the infobox. I will check for any 'rank' issues that emerge in other boxes. Ben MacDui (Talk) 20:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Grimsay

message: Dear Sir Finavon - First of all, many thanks for fixing Eilean Ban, S Walls etc. I am most remiss in not spotting these earlier. Secondly, I don't know what you are up to with your mysterious edit (reduce to single copy of each ref - permits editing ..). First of all, I have never been quite sure what the advantage of this 'cite web' method is. Some bloke went through an entire GA I was watching recently changing every one. There were about 100 and it must have taken an hour at least. He could provide no obvious explanation so I assumed OCD and let him be. Secondly, this has resulted in the jaunty 'main refs' bit vanishing, which to be honest, I quite liked. Yours, seeking enlightenment, Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:32, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: Of the 208 Larger & populated islands, 181 have any sort of page (many are stubs), of which 74 (with Ornsay) use the island infobox. Finavon 17:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be Inchcolm: pop 2; max height 102ft (ref http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/features/featurehistory12.html); unknown area (so not ranked) but looks to be 10-15 ha. [Use of template]. Finavon 20:16, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Project progress 

message: I now believe that ROI accept UK sovereignty over Rockall as it falls within the Economic sea boundary of the UK - therefore the UK is entitled to claim the isle, and a 13 Nmile fishing right around it.
There is a body of editors very keen to ensure Rockall is not part of the UK.
LG —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.216.29.218 (talk • contribs).
"the legality of the claim is disputed by the Republic of Ireland, Denmark and Iceland and it is probably unenforceable in international law."
I would dispute this, not for any jingoistic reasons, but simply Britain's military might, especially naval, which dwarves anything the Icelanders, Danish or Irish have in that way. Also, the UK usually has US backing on certain matters. --MacRusgail 09:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rockall 

message: The reference to 'walking to Baleshare' (see Tidal islands) is certainly verifiable, but I have to say I think it is classifiable as 'legend' rather than anything more plausible. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:26, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Monach Bridge

message: ===a nice example of pseudo-exact nitpicking===
I can't speak for the whole of Scotland in general or the Western Isles in particular. As a professional geographer and frequent traveller of both Orkney and Shetland I will refer to these island groups and the way they are presented on this page only.
*classifying the Brough of Birsay as one of the Smaller offshore islands of Orkney is a joke
*classifying the St Ninian's Isle as one of the Smaller offshore islands of Shetland is a better one (Note: normally all islands are more or less off the shore but there are only a few offshore islands like the St Kilda group, Sule Skerry & Sgeir, Rockall, Foula or Fair Isle ... ;-) )
*then classifying (in one and the same article) the St Ninian's Isle, which is accessible all year round except for a few hours every third or fourth year as a Tidal island but not classifying the Brough of Birsay as such, although it is an example par excellence for a tidal island being accessible only a few hours per day, is nothing else but turning the generally accepted definition of a 'tidal island' upside down
*refering to St Ninian's Isle as Shetland's only one Tidal island is only a proof for the fact that the authors are unfamiliar with local conditions and that they never have looked at a proper map. Search Ordnance Survey "Get a Map" for the grid references HU372785, HU448824, or HU493798 just to mention three examples out of more than a dozen for Shetland alone - it's all the same development of linking islands by an ayre/tombolo as discussed for St Ninian's Isle under Tidal islands (note: all such place names in Orkney and Shetland for linked islands without the term 'island' as a part of the place name are going back to the early 19th century OS mapping only. Due to this work eg. the Houss Islands of Shetland got there modern names as West Burra with Kettla Ness linked by an ayre and East Burra with Houss Ness linked to it by an ayre, too).
*... then adding an image with the caption The Earl's Palace, Birsay, Orkney suggesting within the context that this palace is on an island called Birsay again is a proof of pseudo-exact deskwork which was done without local knowledge. There is neither an island of such name nor is that palace on that island of the Brough of Birsay given in the list. This palace of the Stewart Earls is located in Birsay village on Orkney Mainland more than 1 km S to E (with the ruin barely visible) from the Brough of Birsay where there is a Jarl's palace dating back to the Viking period instead.
*... and btw: forget about the maps added for both Orkney and Shetland. Chuck da bruck ...
**leaving out populated islands
**creating new islands (eg. by not showing extisting ayres or the barriers in Orkney)
**producing no more extisting outbound ferry services
**producing wrong inter island ferry service links
**creating none-existant inter island services
**leaving out exsisting inter island services
**showing neglectable farms as settlements
**showing existing villages in wrong places
**showing place names others than villages in totally wrong positions 
**&c &c &c
*Now, let's have a look at other areas ... ;-)As a None-Scot I would like to suggest to leave it to the islanders to discuss and describe their own habitat instead of trying to invent the wheel again ... 91.64.3.152 12:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Menagerie section - please do not feed the trolls

message: I can't speak for the whole of Scotland in general or the Western Isles in particular. As a professional geographer and frequent traveller of both Orkney and Shetland I will refer to these island groups and the way they are presented on this page only.
*classifying the Brough of Birsay as one of the Smaller offshore islands of Orkney is a joke
*classifying the St Ninian's Isle as one of the Smaller offshore islands of Shetland is a better one (Note: normally all islands are more or less off the shore but there are only a few offshore islands like the St Kilda group, Sule Skerry & Sgeir, Rockall, Foula or Fair Isle ... ;-) )
*then classifying (in one and the same article) the St Ninian's Isle, which is accessible all year round except for a few hours every third or fourth year as a Tidal island but not classifying the Brough of Birsay as such, although it is an example par excellence for a tidal island being accessible only a few hours per day, is nothing else but turning the generally accepted definition of a 'tidal island' upside down
*refering to St Ninian's Isle as Shetland's only one Tidal island is only a proof for the fact that the authors are unfamiliar with local conditions and that they never have looked at a proper map. Search Ordnance Survey "Get a Map" for the grid references HU372785, HU448824, or HU493798 just to mention three examples out of more than a dozen for Shetland alone - it's all the same development of linking islands by an ayre/tombolo as discussed for St Ninian's Isle under Tidal islands (note: all such place names in Orkney and Shetland for linked islands without the term 'island' as a part of the place name are going back to the early 19th century OS mapping only. Due to this work eg. the Houss Islands of Shetland got there modern names as West Burra with Kettla Ness linked by an ayre and East Burra with Houss Ness linked to it by an ayre, too).
*... then adding an image with the caption The Earl's Palace, Birsay, Orkney suggesting within the context that this palace is on an island called Birsay again is a proof of pseudo-exact deskwork which was done without local knowledge. There is neither an island of such name nor is that palace on that island of the Brough of Birsay given in the list. This palace of the Stewart Earls is located in Birsay village on Orkney Mainland more than 1 km S to E (with the ruin barely visible) from the Brough of Birsay where there is a Jarl's palace dating back to the Viking period instead.
*... and btw: forget about the maps added for both Orkney and Shetland. Chuck da bruck ...
**leaving out populated islands
**creating new islands (eg. by not showing extisting ayres or the barriers in Orkney)
**producing no more extisting outbound ferry services
**producing wrong inter island ferry service links
**creating none-existant inter island services
**leaving out exsisting inter island services
**showing neglectable farms as settlements
**showing existing villages in wrong places
**showing place names others than villages in totally wrong positions 
**&c &c &c
*Now, let's have a look at other areas ... ;-)As a None-Scot I would like to suggest to leave it to the islanders to discuss and describe their own habitat instead of trying to invent the wheel again ... 91.64.3.152 12:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: a nice example of pseudo-exact nitpicking