Talk:José Luis de Jesús

message: Some people insist on violating wiki policy ith this article, so to quote:
"Remove unsourced or poorly sourced negative material
Editors should remove any negative material that is either unsourced or relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources from any page, including those concerning living persons and related talk pages, without discussion; this is also listed as an exception to the three-revert rule. This principle also applies to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Wikipedia. Administrators may enforce the removal of unsourced material with page protection and blocks, even if they have been editing the article themselves. Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked. See the blocking policy and Wikipedia:Libel.
Administrators encountering biographies that are unsourced and negative in tone, where there is no NPOV version to revert to, should delete the article without discussion (see WP:CSD criterion A6).
Jimmy Wales has said:
"I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." [2] 
He considers "no" information to be better than "speculative" information and reemphasizes the need for sensitivity:
"Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia." [3] "
Dr U 08:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am very familiar with WP:BLP and read the comment from Jimbo some time back.  I have sourced the claim from named authorities, which was not difficult. Guy 06:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Previously Poorly Formatted Comments 

message: I propose to merge this article with "stupid shit that people come up with when they are stoned" Niubrad 01:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This Gives Me An Idea 

message: - anyone know if this is correct? JoshuaZ 04:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit by anon 

message: I'm not a religious person and well obviously even if he's a fraud well wanted to request this article to be removed since it's pure BS but i doubt it happens since he has shaken the medias greatly. So here is a little more data for you guys to implement
He's from Ponce, Puerto Rico, he has a son who have also denied the fact that he is "jesus", he was a drug user and he also used heroine, he admitted it in the program "A Calzon Quitao" aired in Wapa TV(Puerto Rican Media), interviewed by Ruben Sanchez. 
The story he gives to Ruben is that, his son a few years ago told him that jesus was going to come tonight, that he couldn't believe what his son said till the so called apparition happened.
A woman, that have followed him, in a previous interview broke a picture of The previous Pope, calling him a liar. (Sorry I forgot her name, she says she follows his teachings). 
According to Jose luis, he says all the churches are lying always going in the same loop, that his words is full of truth and that people shouldn't listen to the catholic church anymore. He also mentioned that he stopped the Colombian government to stop giving money to catholic churches.
Maybe I can add more but I need to gather a few names from here and there. 
--64.237.221.115 00:47, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A little more 

message: The article should be consistent. Which one should it use? RB972 04:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  de Jesus or Miranda 

message: Although I am not a Christian, I note that this article is incredibly biased in favor of Mr. de Jesus.  There are some "allegations" that are refuted with unsourced evidence, and the grammar is poor.  If this was Uncyclopedia I would NRV it, but it's not, so I'm going to give people a chance to fix it before I renominate it for VFD.  Railcgun 21:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think Christians are the only ones offended by this guy. Miranda offends anyone who looks at him- Let me get off my opinion and state, the article is biased, and I'm gunna apply the ol' brain cells to fix what I can. IronCrow 22:19, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPV 

message: Is there (yet) a policy allowing us to delete utterly worthless comments made by obvious non-editors (such as that directly preceding this one)? Why do people come to religion related articles to declare their faith (or lack thereof)? FYI, people: nobody cares what you believe, ok? Nobody. This is an encyclopedia; your religious belief constitutes original research, and is neither wanted nor needed here. 
On a more useful subject, why on Earth would this article be constantly nominated for deletion? This guy is, in fact, an actual extant human being, who appears (occasionally) in the news, and does indeed have a large number of followers and (according to the Dallas Morning News) a substantial media network. Very, very encyclopedic, if you ask me. Ofc, it is utterly essential that all references to "Jesus" and the like be sourced and described uniformly as his claims. No other "special treatment" is needed. (Well, except for the inevitable edit-wars when one or more of his followers discover Wikipedia ;). Eaglizard 17:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just did. 134.134.136.4 16:55, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleting Worthless Comments (but NOT this Article) 

message: Here is the clip of him on the Today Show if anyone wants to use it for citing.--Twintone 18:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Today Show 

message: I have moved lots of the un-cited comments here for now; there are so many of them that they make the article falicious by their sheer volume. Please feel free to move them back if you find a citation. The intention of this move is not to censor the article, it is merely to remove uncited (and therefore potentially wrong) items from the article. If you can find any appropriate citation for any of these items, please move it back to the original article and include the citation (please remove it from this list also to make life easier for other editors). Thank you.
From the Early Life part of the article:
* He was forced to enter a long term residential drug treatment program in New York City.
* De Jesús declares to have converted to Christianity while in prison. 
* Immediately following his conversion he became a self-taught student of the Bible.
* In a recent program on ABC, he told of the experience that led him to become this controversial "messiah": Allegedly, praying one day, two angels appeared to him and endowed him with the calling of being the second coming of Christ. 
Second paragraph:
* In 1999, he declared himself as "the Other" who would pave the way for the second coming of Christ.
* In 2004, he started to refer to himself as God, returned in human.
* He explained that, in 1973, the resurrected Christ "integrated" himself within him.
Third paragraph:
* In the mid-1980s and the ministry currently has a physical presence in thirty countries, however statistics show that more than 103 countries tune in every time he talks to the world through his live conferences on Wednesdays.
* The Ministry CEG reports to have centers in 12 States within the United States, including locations in Hartford, Connecticut, and Miami, Florida.
From the Notes on De Jesus TV segment part of the article:
* Much to critics' surprise the show generated the highest ratings of any TV show in the month of December, even surpassing the ratings of the live broadcast of the Latin Grammys in November by a substantial amount of viewers.
* On November 17, 2006, Puerto Rican newspaper El Vocero announced that Miranda planned a visit to Puerto Rico on December 17th of that year. Univision's Que Suerte show allowed thirty minutes without commercial interruptions to "the Man Christ Jesus" (as de Jesus Miranda is called by his followers), causing even more controversy because such uninterrupted airtime has never been allowed to anyone in the history of Puerto Rican television.
:Actually, most of that is true, well, true as in he has said that. The third paragraph is overstating and the "notes" section just isn't true at all, he's spread his so-called "ministry" to like three or so countries and his show never gets good ratings, aside from hecklers and actual devotees. Anyway, I just watched Primetime (ABC) and the show itself implied most of paragraph 1 and 2. Also in 1997 he got a DUI or something after stating he never got drunk after "becoming" Jesus. There's also the very controversial statement he made when he said that murder and stealing wasn't wrong, that only society made them wrong. http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=2925021&page=1 IronCrow 03:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed and un-cited comments. 

message: He is also a giant toolbox, liar, scumbag, and should be dealt with as soon as possible. While I agree with that point of view, and I also think that he deserves to be shot in the kneecaps, it is opinion, and, therefore, does not belong in this article if it is wanted to be encyclopedic. Therefore, gone. Be more professional with yor POVs, the one who wrote that.--Kim Kusanagi 19:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's what I think. Miranda is a liar and, as ABC implied it, "Con-Man." I believe he is an idiot and deserves, like Kim Kusanagi has said, to be shot in the kneecaps. A user's opinion, however, has no place in Wikipedia. Miranda may be an incredibly stupid guy (he does know how to make money though), he may look like he eats children, and he probably should be "dealt with as soon as possible," but that is only your (and my) opinion. The only dumber people out there is his followers, which I am soooo glad they aren't Wikipedians. If you want to make a "Jose Miranda Eats Small Children" website, then by all means, do so. Just don't do it on Wikipedia, please. IronCrow 22:14, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You said: The only dumber people out there is his followers, which I am soooo glad they aren't Wikipedians. Well, don't be so sure about that... :0 - Mtmelendez (Talk|UB|Home) 01:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hehe, you're right. Forgot the original creation of this article was... errrrrr, yeah... biased. Meh, either way, lets make sure this doen't go back down that sink hole, huh? I think I meant that the person does not parade around Wikipedia in his underwear... if you get what I mean. IronCrow 20:58, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed this... 

message: I fully agree that Miranda is leading a cult.  However, I find it absurd to call Rick Ross a cult expert.  He's a convicted felon who labels even fairly mainstream Christian sects as cults.  I'm not even remotely religious but I find Rick Ross' positions highly offensive.  
--Caja do Queso (talk) 22:52, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of how you define the man (I would agree with you at points, he is kind of ridiculous), but he is considered an expert by many. You also forget the guy was a felon at 22, many people who were felons at a young age at least grew to their senses (somewhat). IronCrow (talk) 02:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ross is controversial. He is also notable. He has his own wikipedia page: Rick_Ross_(consultant). He was also used as a named source in the Fox News reference used in this article they grabbed from AP. As far as the crimes go, Im not sure how relevant they are as they occurred forty years (!) ago and there is no indication of more recent or related criminal activity. It appears he has a new hustle, shall we say. Caja do Queso I share your point of view, as I do not agree with Ross or Miranda. That said, AP is using Ross' commentary. We should be able to use it too. Maybe there is another reason to leave him out? ATM I dont see any quotes from Ross in the article, but frankly this article needs a lot of additional content. It would be nice to get comments re: Miranda from all types of people we might agree or disagree with. Jay Dubya (talk) 19:19, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rick Ross a cult expert? 

message: Diff. Who's watching this page? --Pwnage8 (talk) 18:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I was... But my main concern is other articles. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 00:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: Maybe he might be referring to the fact that in the original Greek "anti-" had a number of meanings (it did not always mean what it does in modern languages -- e.g. Antipater definitely does not mean "against the father", etc.). AnonMoos (talk) 15:23, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting point. Im not familiar enough with his work to say one way or the other (Im just doing research and adding references here). A "Theology of José Luis de Jesús" could be one awesome article, though (or just as easily a rotten one). Jay Dubya (talk) 19:22, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Ancient Greek?

message: The original (now dead) link:
: 
Replaced with:
: 
Spare links in case the above ever goes dead too:
* https://richarddawkins.net/articles/583
* http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=https://richarddawkins.net/articles/583
Note: the WebArchive has failed to archive MSNBC properly, as well as it has failed to archive RichardDawkins.net and the Newsweek.
— 6birc (talk) 06:08, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link repaired (MSNBC/Newsweek) 

message: Under "Current movement", it states "De Jesús has gained attention worldwide. He counts with an unprecedented communication powerhouse which is tuned in by over 103 countries every Wednesday and Sunday when he speaks. His worldwide reach counts with:
    Live transmission every Wednesday at 8:00 pm ET through: www.CreciendoenGracia.com
    His own Satellite Channel 24/7: www.TeleGracia.com which is broadcasted in 16 countries by over 600 cable companies
    His own Radio Station: www.NetGracia.com
    355 education centers in 30 nations
        225 radio programs
    600 cable companies that transmit TeleGracia
    300 TV programs
    More than 80 music artists around the world
    Millions of people who voluntarily offer their lives to make his word spread
In early 2007 he acknowledged others' claims that he was the Antichrist and explained that the term is true."
Clearly, whatever objective information might be contained here is infected by a hefty dose of hyperbole.  "Gained attention"? "Unprecedented communication powerhouse"? "...to make his word spread"?! It's obvious this was written by one of his devotees, rather than by a dispassionate editor, and one who is English-challenged at that. Consequently, I'm going to prune most of the nonsense out. Bricology (talk) 05:42, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Bricology. Miranda does seem to have a large following, but this is clearly peacocking. The "Millions of people" bit in particular I have found no evidence of. Jay Dubya (talk) 19:24, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Current movement" blather 

message: Univision just announced his death. The Spanish article also states his death, but strangely on the 8th of August this year. Been searching on the internet but since he's not notable outside of Puerto Rico no site that I trust has his death. Will look for more.Hitmonchan (talk) 00:45, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Ex-Wife of Man Claiming to Be 'Immortal Jesus Christ' Confirms His Death --Racklever (talk) 20:15, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Univision is an RS IMO, but you're right we need as much as possible. Here is Virginia Commonwealth University confirming. Will update with additional info http://www.has.vcu.edu/wrs/profiles/GrowingInGrace.htm Jay Dubya (talk) 14:07, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  He's dead 

message: Someone who can translate it into English please view it, I'm too lazy to do it hehe
http://www telegracia com /enlaces-varios-completos/2013/12/8/video-mensaje-de-lisss-para-la-amada-de-melquisedec.html (copy and paste the link, also add the dots, because telegracia is banned by wikipedia)
http://www.joyasdegracia.com/2013/11/una-nueva-familia-parte-120.html
http://infocatolica.com/blog/infories.php/1311281028-anuncian-la-muerte-ahora-si-d
:The dates here are wrong. He dies prior to this, in August. The church did not announce his death until November; the ex-wife in this case is a more reliable source than the church, because the church is claiming in multiple sources that Jose Luis is immortal. Frankly IMO the church should only be used with an inline explanation (i.e. his church states that...) because of the nature of the claims and relationship. Here are my RS confirmations of this (soon to be added):
http://www.has.vcu.edu/wrs/profiles/GrowingInGrace.htm
http://www.christianpost.com/news/ex-wife-of-man-claiming-to-be-immortal-jesus-christ-confirms-his-death-102555/
Jay Dubya (talk) 14:04, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  He died by nov 15 UPDATED: Date of Death now stated Aug 8th

message: I've placed a "dubios claim" and "dubious Inline" tag on this statement:
"Roberto Piñeiro died on December 9 of 2010 of a stroke, much to the delight of Miranda's followers."
The citation provided only makes one reference to Jose Luis' followers. I have translated it here:
"Pineiro said he was entitled to that money because the church of Miranda, was a personal matter, not a religious nonprofit. Followers of Miranda - stamped using "666" shirts - later protested outside the courthouse but it was in vain."
Here is the URL so you can view the text in its original Spanish:
http://www.noticiacristiana.com/sociedad/sectas/2010/12/muere-juez-quien-se-burlo-de-la-doctrina-de-jose-luis-de-jesus-miranda-video.html
1. The reference is a "dubious inline" because the reference text in no way supports our claim.
2. Even if the text *did* support our claim, it would be wrong to do so. Jose Luis has thousands of followers. We have no way of knowing what even a plurality of them have to say about Roberto Pineiro. There is a good chance that most have never heard of Pineiro and never followed Ruis' divorce. At a bare minimum, we must qualify the statement by saying "some followers" and backing that up using direct quotes. If we fail to do so, the graph indulges in pure libel.
In its present form I cannot think of any reasonable defense for this, however I will not revert without consensus as this article is prone to controversy. Please share your thoughts here. Jay Dubya (talk) 17:54, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious 

message: I've roughly tripled the number of references with functioning links, using only newspapers and university websites. I also expanded the documentation for all the original references, save a few that have serious issues. To avoid edit warring, I am going to list the references here and what the issues are. In a nutshell, these cover dead links, self-published blogs, and religious blogs without NPOV. Note that some religious publications are very much RS, for example Christian Science Monitor. Needless to say, the links below are not to the Christian Science Monitor. Also, because this is en.wikipedia.org, we should really try to focus on english sources where they are available. If we have a spanish-only site that adds new or critical information we cant find from an English RS, we should translate and use it. However, I've already updated one reference that was cited as Spanish that was actually a Spanish translation for an English website. If you find yourself editing here and you're more comfortable with Spanish than English, you may want to consider helping move this article to es.wikipedia.org - just as much help is needed there! Anyway, if you can fix a dead link below, great. Otherwise lets try to reach consensus about removal and replacing these. Thanks. Jay Dubya (talk) 19:52, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current Problematic Citations 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on José Luis de Jesús. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100506082930/http://www.cnn.com:80/video/ to http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/02/15/zarrella.man.jesus.cnn
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on José Luis de Jesús. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Substituted at 21:47, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified