Talk:Leni Riefenstahl/Archive 1

message: It seems that many biographical entiries refer "Der Heilige Berg" as her first movie performance. 
Britannica seems to suggest that it is "Peak of Destiny," which I think is incorrect. I've sometimes read that Peak of Destiny is the piece that captured Leni's attention to movies, and she talked to Arnold Franck eventually. And the piece is released in 1925. 
Now, Imdb says, along with this article, Tragödie im Hause Habsburg (1924) is the first. That is even before she saw "Peak.." I'm curious to know more about this particular piece and the role she played in it, if she did. Anyone has a pointer? Thanks. Tomos 04:31, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Her first film

message: I've seen a TV documentary about Leni Riefenstahl that focused on her work on the Nubas of Sudan, and didn't picture her as notorious as this article does. She even claimed that she wanted Hitler to choose another director instead of her, but to her dismay Hitler insisted on having her. Etz Haim 04:22, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: And why, exactly, are we holding a person who was making an underwater documentary 60 years ago to the diving standards of the present?
She didn't make the underwater film 60 years ago. It was in the mid '90s. The thing is, she herself was in her 90s when she learned to dive, and when she made the film. I think that itself is impressive, and too bad about her lack of athleticism. If you can get hold of the DVD of White Hell of Pitz Palu (or was it Storm over Mont Blanc??? I forget at the moment) there is a short extra film, a brief documentary/interview with Leni from the mid-'90s or so. Interestingly, she was using a full suite of the latest "Avid" film-making tools (with computers, digital editing, etc.). --Fluffbrain 00:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Documentary

message: Not sure if anyone wants to add it to the article...I just watched her film "Underwater Impressions" (totally unaware of her background) and was shocked at her lack of skill underwater.  She has almost no bouyancy control skills, and is almost perpetually bouncing off the reefs or resting on them with her hands or fins.  Numerous shots end just before she kicks a fin into the reef or hits it with her hand.  Numerous shots are of her very much "inside" the reef.
Sounds silly, but scuba divers and marine scientists are VERY, VERY fussy about this stuff.  Not only is it very dangerous to the diver, but it heavily damages the coral.  For over a decade, PADI and other dive organizations have been beating it into diver's heads that you -do not touch reefs-.  It's important for people to understand that kind of activity is not acceptable...
: And why, exactly, are we holding a person who was making an underwater documentary 60 years ago to the diving standards of the present?
She didn't make the underwater film 60 years ago. It was in the mid '90s. The thing is, she herself was in her 90s when she learned to dive, and when she made the film. I think that itself is impressive, and too bad about her lack of athleticism. If you can get hold of the DVD of White Hell of Pitz Palu (or was it Storm over Mont Blanc??? I forget at the moment) there is a short extra film, a brief documentary/interview with Leni from the mid-'90s or so. Interestingly, she was using a full suite of the latest "Avid" film-making tools (with computers, digital editing, etc.). --Fluffbrain 00:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Underwater documentary

message: I edited a portion of the WW2 section of this article. The removed section was about the Warsaw victory parade and it's wrongships. In my oppinion, the following sentence goes against the NPOV policy; "However, by 5 October 1939 Leni Riefenstahl was already back in occupied Poland and filming Hitler's victory parade in Warsaw, her conscience and sense of aesthetics not affected  by the fact that during the parade all inhabitants of Warsaw were ordered to stay at home and shut their windows."
I find it questionable that the large section about the Warsaw victory parade fits into this article. I can however see the point, given that it's a valid argument for her being a Nazi sympathizer. The best thing to do IMO would be to remove the Warsaw parade and find referances to academic discussions upon if this shows her true colors or not. --Aerugo 02:20, 05 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Warsaw Victory Parade

message: It might appear that the anonymous contributor is unaware of the NPOV policy (e.g. "reviled"). Please see it. Please see WP:3RR while you're at it. As far as saying that Reifenstahl is a Nazi propagandist, that's true on one level but misleading on another. She may have been in fundamental accord with the Nazis in terms of their mode of mass politics via aesthetics and their enthusiasm for technology, but she also appears to have drawn a line in her allegiances (see above). Furthermore, Olympia does not neatly fit into the "propagandist" category, even if its aesthetics have been alleged to been consistent with those of the Nazis. Defining her as a Nazi propagandist may bring a truth to light, but it's far from an exhaustive (that is to say: encyclopaedic) description. I would, however, venture, that the article does not go very far is specifying Riefenstahl's aesthetics and relating it to her propaganda work. Buffyg 12:36, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: How to say it

message: "Kampf in Schnee und Eis (Leibzig, 1933)" - is that really correct? I would think it would be "Leipzig" instead. 84.184.123.162 20:07, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a typo. Leipzig would be the correct term, have you altered the mistake? Эйрон Кинни (t) 09:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bibliography

message: Perhaps a little bit about her aesthetics/techniques should be included? It's discussed briefly and then never elaborated on.
:Go for it, dude!Ellsworth 22:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Technique 

message: Cut this:
:In her obituaries Riefenstahl was said to be the last famous figure of Germany's Nazi era to die.
It was unsourced and it also apparently, wrong. I'd certainly classify Max Schmeling as a "famous figure of Germany's Nazi era"  and he outlived her. Ellsworth 22:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last famous figure 

message: I'm not sure if the following sentence is accurate: "After World War II, she spent four years in a French detention camp"  I've been reading about this part of her biography here: http://www.germanhollywood.com/rief_2.html  and it seems the issue of what happened to her after the War is more complicated. Thanks, Cgrimm 22:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was Riefenstahl really in a French detention camp?  

message: Were there concentration camps in 1934 (commment in article says she used concentration camp labor for a film at that time).  Seems an anacronysm to me and also a bit of an akward attempt to slip a slam in.TCO 19:39, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: concentration camp labor?

message: I couldn't remember her name, but I figured I would have no problem finding a link to her article from Goebbels; I'm not that bothered that his article doesn't mention her, but I'm surprised that she isn't included in the category "Nazi propagandists"  Mulp 18:45, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nazi propogandist?

message: Festliches Nürnberg ist not a film by Leni Riefenstahl. She was never involved in the production, since she was still working on editing her Olympia documentary. None of her biographers mention that film, besides some untrustworthy sites selling the video only the English Wikipedia (and others copying the filmography) mentions the film. The IMDb recently corrected the entry for Festliches Nürnberg, crediting Hans Weidemann as director. Sadly I've found only German websites proving Weidemann's authorship: , , . Since I am newly registered at en: (I am a regular contributor at de:), I do not want to corerct this article without presenting my references here. Furthermore I wonder how the article for festliches Nürnberg can be rewritten, since most parts of the article are about Riefenstahl's contribution and her previous works. --Andibrunt 13:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Festliches Nürnberg 

message: Triumph des Willen is a 'propaganda film'. It was commissioned and paid for by Joseph Goebbels head of the Propaganda department of Hirlers government. In any scholarly publication on propaganda film in the Third Reich you will find Triumph des Willen described as such. There are many publications about the film analysing its propaganda features. Describing it as a 'documentary' gives the false impression that the film justs reports the events at the Parteitage. Riefenstahl has made a concerted effort of white-washing herself of any responsibility for her nazi past. Consistently referring to Triumph des Willen as 'documentary' has been part of that effort. Using the term 'documentary' is distorting the facts and POV. Using the term 'propaganda film' is true to the facts and NPOV.S711 07:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The term 'propaganda film' is correct, using the term 'documentary' is distorting the facts

message: In the article there is this paragraph:
"Impressed with her work, Hitler asked her to film the upcoming 1934 Party rally in Nuremberg. Riefenstahl turned down the project at first because she did not want to make "a prescribed film" and instead began making another film titled Tiefland. Meanwhile, she hired Walter Ruttmann to direct the documentary but she fell ill and Tiefland was cancelled. When she recovered Riefenstahl reviewed Ruttmann's footage and didn't like it. At Hitler's urging she took on the role of director and was given unlimited resources, camera crews, budget, complete artistic control and final cut of the film."
In recent biographies (Kinkel, Trimborn and Steven Bach) this version of the events has been proved to be false. Riefenstahl did not turn down the offer, she was involved in all the preparations, there was no Ruttmann footage which was turned down. However that may be, the paragraph is not supported by any (reliable) source. Therefore I propose to delete it.S711 20:13, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Thanks. Gwen Gale 22:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Gwen.S711 07:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Yep. Leni is not a reliable source about herself. Gwen Gale (talk) 04:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Untrue

message: An Encyclopedia must refrain from any kind of moral judgement and must not try to depict historical features under any subjective light, whether good or bad.
The insertion regarding the documentary film showing great consideration by the highest nazi propaganda officers and Hitler himself for Riefenstahl work is interesting and could be quoted in the interest of showing said importance, but must not be used as a way to depict a person as "morally bad" or, even worse, morally bad because close to Hitler.
The way the insertion keeps on reappearing on W. is instead clearly biased toward applying a moral judgement on L.R.. The insertion's author makes a kind of implicit logic link between being a nazi propagandist and being a criminal, and tries to "demonstrate" that L.R. was a propagandist (which is self-evident) in order to implicitly state she is a criminal BECAUSE she is a propagandist.
The espression used, i.e. that the documentary demonstrates L.R. as being "acutely aware" (sic!) of being a nazi propagandist, is the demonstration of the obvious. This is like saying that a documentary showed Stalin being "acutely aware" he was a Communist, you know there is incontrovertible evidence he was at table with Lenin at Communist Party dinners, we have the pictures!
The article expression "In later interviews Riefenstahl maintained that she was "fascinated" by the National Socialists but politically naïve and ignorant about the war crimes of which they were subsequently found guilty." CORRECTLY and impartially states the role of L.R. in the making of the nazi propaganda and the denial by L.R. of any complicity in the nazi crimes. That is well written because it is not trying to attribute moral qualities to L.R. or to make an "historical judgement" which would not be historical at all being L.R. of our age.
The point about the use of the Gipsy prisoners in her film and their successive destiny is certainly object of interest and could be used in an impartial manner. In any case it should never be implied that L.R. is somewhat indirectly or morally responsible for the imprisonment and the killing of said Gipsies.
  --151.41.237.180 08:34, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Notwithstanding the above, the statement in the introduction that the "propaganda value of her films made during the 1930s repels most modern commentators" is clear POV. We do not read the same comments about Soviet propagandists.Royalcourtier (talk) 04:08, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the documentary by History Channel showing L.R. being "acutely aware" she is a propagandist 

message: In the article there is the sentence:
"She became a photographer and later photographed rock star Mick Jagger and his wife Bianca as a couple after they were married."
This would suggest that this photo-session had a certain relevance to her career as a photographer. That is not the case. It was only a society event. The only notability of it is that it concerned Jagger and Riefenstahl (trivial). I propose to delete it and connect: 'she became a photographer' directly to the Nuba sentence.S711 07:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree, Jagger's rather notable and the event provides context to her post-war life. Gwen Gale 12:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Then should the article not also mention Keith Richards appearing in a SS-uniform at the same photo-session? Rather futile. Be that as it may, Riefenstahl certainly did not make a career as a photographer of celebrities. So mentioning this event direcly after "she became a photographer" gives/gave the wrong impression. S711 17:53, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't say it had anything to do with her professional career. I said "the event provides context to her post-war life." As for KR showing up in an SS uniform for the same event, even if it could be supported with a citation from a reliable source, which I guess could happen, it would stray way too far from WP:WEIGHT. Gwen Gale 18:25, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: It suggests it had something to do with her professional career because it is the first thing that is mentioned after "she became a photographer". The brackets just make it seem extra odd.S711 18:56, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (edit conflict) However, I do agree with you that the sentence flow could still easily and wholly mislead a casual reader into thinking Jagger professionally commissioned her to take pictures. I've tried to fix this by placing the text after Nuba, wording it more clearly and adding that the whole thing's still controversial. Gwen Gale 18:59, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Trivia

message: The footnote:  See also Gypsies' Fate Haunts Film Muse of Hitler, The Guardian, August 17, 2002. does not refer to the massacre in Konskie but to the fate of the gypsies who acted in Tiefland and many of whom subsequently were killed in Auschwitz. S711 10:06, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I took it out. Thanks again, for bringing this one up too. Also, it's not much of a citation even about Tiefland: Given LR (like many Germans along with others throughout history in like settings) at her very most helpful only stood by and cried whilst folks around her were dragged off and criminally slain, the Guardian article consists mostly of a single assertion made decades later with no evidence of independent confirmation. Which is to say, I'm ok with bringing up Tiefland accusations in the article but the sources should be reliable and verifiable. Gwen Gale 18:43, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Footnote

message: According to TZ online () Riefenstahl was married to Horst Kettner shorly before she died.  S711 08:28, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The original source is Die Bunte. The date is unknown. According to some under water magazine they married in New Guinea, but I don't think that information is reliable.S711 21:28, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Married twice

message: In the article was the sentence:
"Riefenstahl is widely noted in film histories for developing new techniques in film, including the photography of nude bodies."
That is not correct.
Riefenstahl first film appearance was in: Wilhelm Prager, Wege zu Kraft und Schönheit — Ein Film über moderne Körperkultur (Ways to Strength and Beauty — A Film About Modern Physical Culture), Germany 1924/1925.
Thát is the film noted for the introduction of "Körper Kultur" (body culture) in film history, not Riefenstahl's Olympia .
A quote:
"The stature that this film (Wege zu Kraft und Schönheit) would attain as the most important Kulturfilme of the era is also clearly reflected in the literature of the period, such as Oskar Kalbus' two-volume retrospective of German film, Vom werden Deutscher Filmkunst, in which this film is referred to as "a revelation, a work of art with a very innovative film style." 
Kalbus, Oskar. Vom werden Deutscher Filmkunst - 1. Teil: Der stumme film. Altona-Bahrenfeld: Cigaretten-Bilderdienst, 1935; pages 92-93."
By the way: (from the same site riefenstahl.org)
"There is a distinct similarity between certain film styles which we see in Wege zu Kraft und Schönheit and Riefenstahl's own 1938 masterpiece, Olympia, and concern over being accused that her film was not quite as original as generally thought may also have played a role in Riefenstahl's decision to not mention any connection with the former film. While Wege zu Kraft und Schönheit is unfortunately still not readily available (on VHS or DVD) in order to facilitate any thorough analysis and comparison of these two films, even from the various production stills for both these similarities can be observed — for example, in how some of the athletic scenes were shot or, even more strikingly, with regard to the opening dance scenes in Olympia."
For a comparison see:
Photography of nude bodies was clearly not something Riefenstahl intrduced in the cinema.
Therefore a deleted the last part of the sentence.
S711 13:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article says she developed the technique (which she did), not that she introduced it. Gwen Gale 13:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The thing is her use of nude bodies had an international effect. I agree there is likely some other way to put this. I wonder what it is. Gwen Gale 14:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

text: "Nude' bodies" concerns only Olympia. Maybe it would be best to put that infomation in where Olympia is discussed. Perhaps also some reference to Mary Wigman and Bess Mensendieck. ) and to Freikörperkultur. There are also many people who write about Riefenstahl use of (perfect, abstract object) bodies in general (not just nudes). That includes also Triumph dW and could be in the introduction, but is even more difficult to explain in a short phrase.S711 14:44, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Something about her use of the body as an abstract object on film. Gwen Gale 17:16, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nude bodies

message: I don't believe that Wikipedia should be used to advance a minority political agenda. Unless there is evidence that Leni Riefenstahl called herself an actor, we should follow standard usage which favours actress.
I would also question whether it is entirely acceptable to cite a Wikipedia article in support of your changes and then edit it to bolster your claim.
I am changing the heading back to actress. Misodoctakleidist 04:15, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a minority political agenda, it's a dicdef. The wikipedia article actor contains a verfiable external citation supporting the gender neutral usage. You've been warned in the past about tenditious editing and you are now on the edge of 3rr, either of which could get you blocked. Gwen Gale 04:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not "tendentious editing." The fact that "actor" can be used to mean he same thing as "actress" does not make it acceptable for people pushing a political agenda to insert it into every article about an actress. It is very much a minority usage which is vastly over-represented on wikipedia due to politicised editing. The insistence on using "actor" to mean "actress" IS a minority poltiial agenda. Misodoctakleidist 05:23, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Actress/Actor 

message: She did not develop them. If you want to know who did develop them see History of film.S711 (talk) 15:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is likely a question of semantics and language. Please note, develop in English does not mean innovate or invent. The wording in the article is wholly supported by citations following WP:V. If you can provide citations which clarify this, or note some controversy along these lines, please do add them. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the dicdef is in line with what the citation(s) has to say about it. Truth be told, the BBC citation goes even further, implying she did indeed innovate these techniques (the word groundbreaking can go along with either invention or development). Please have a look at WP:V for why the citation is so meaningful to this discussion. This said, if you have citations which offer other PoVs or further clarifications, let's put them in the text. At this time, futher assertions about what she did or did not do, without citations, have little or no sway. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

text: "develop" in not in the source.S711 (talk) 18:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Also, I've added two more citations supporting use of the word pioneer. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Crane shots or tracking shots as such are not called visionary or groundbreaking in the citations. The authors are writing about the way these techniques are used. An important difference.S711 (talk) 09:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Is English your native language? Gwen Gale (talk) 13:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Yessum. And what might yours be? You're changing the sources you use. The techniques were not new (let alone groundbreaking or visionary) as such. Slow motion was widely used in sports documentaries in the twenties and thirties, rhymtic editing can be seen in Eisenstein's Potemkin, tracking shots had been there for more than 30 years when Riefenstahl used them. Riefenstahl borrowed heavily from Fritz Lang and other directors of the Weimar Expressionist era German Film 1919-1954, Did experimental ideas and techniques pioneered by Weimar German expressionist filmmakers survive in the Nazi period? With special reference to the work of Leni Riefenstahl, article by Greg Tinker. It was the special use she made of these techniques that was appreciated by the historians you cite, not that she invented them. So please be precise.S711 (talk) 08:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The article doesn't say she invented these techniques (we've been through these dicdefs already). 
The article follows the cited sources, WP:V. Perhaps an RfC is the only way to get through this though. Gwen Gale (talk) 08:22, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

text: The source: "Her Nazi documentaries were hailed as groundbreaking film-making, pioneering techniques etc."
Your text: Riefenstahl is widely noted for pioneering new techniques in film, which have been characterized as visionary and groundbreaking.
The difference: the source says the documentaries were hailed as ground-breaking, your text says the techniques were groundbreaking etc.
My edit corrects this difference.S711 (talk) 09:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There are 6 sources. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:32, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Some years ago I attended a local film series in the Art Gallery of Ontario in Toronto one of which was about Canadian film makers who used camera verite techniques in the fifties. One of the venerable film makers spoke in praise of Riefenstahl's influence on his technique but said absolutely nothing about her jaded past as HItler's propagandist wunderkindt. When this was brought to his attention, he stammered with embarrassment that this was not his business. Hardly a moral position. The point is, of course, that artists always must be responsible for the impact of their work. Riefenstahl could not somehow make a clean break with her past. This article does cover her history very well.63.250.127.245 (talk) 02:04, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please cite sources. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:59, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Film techniques

message: Wholly apart from the repulsive content of documentaries like Triumph of the Will, many sources credit LR's techniques as pioneering and widely influential. There is a low-level but persistent dispute between two editors over how the sources might be dealt with. The statement...
Riefenstahl is noted in many film histories for pioneering new techniques in film, which have been characterized as visionary and groundbreaking. 
...has been repeatedly changed to...
Riefenstahl is noted in many film histories for pioneering new techniques in her films, which have been characterized as visionary and groundbreaking. by the other editor.
Since I have characterized this change as disruption (of the "PoV warring in good faith kind"), I'll now step back from this in the hope other editors will comment and collaorate on building a consensus for the article header based on WP:V. Cheers to all. Gwen Gale (talk) 08:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Which is why I've taken the insistence of that editor on inserting her into the text as mild disruption/PoV warring: However, it does imply the innovation was relative only to her films, which is not what the 6 cited sources say. Gwen Gale (talk) 02:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps the best compromise would simply be to briefly quote one of the sources, thus rendering the specific semantical argument moot? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 23:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Thanks. Gwen Gale (talk) 09:12, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Yeah, I know it seems utterly trivial. Happily, by using direct quotes now, perhaps the lead narrative can avoid any editorial iterpretation of the sources regarding this very controversial film director. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Riefenstahl's pioneering influence in film

message: So Der Sieg des Glaubens was withdrawn from theatres in May 1933 - about four months before it was even filmed??? Please try to get the dates right in these articles, it is infuriating for those of us who use them for research! Gadsby West (talk) 00:41, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Der Sieg des Glaubens

message: While I am amazed that this page rates a B-class rating, I would question the NPOV of this article. I do agree that the term propaganda film is correct terminology for Triumpth, but I would take issue with citing it has her most famous film.  It is certainly influential but I think that Olympia deserves mention and striking "most."  I have read Wonderful, Horrible Life, and I've also examined the German language wikipedia page for LR which does mention Olympia in the introductory section, and I can only conclude that the English language version lacks NPOV. 143.232.210.46 (talk) 18:05, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Olympia]] deserves mention in the introductory comment

message: I was reading this article for the first time tonight, as well as much of the conversation here, and I'm troubled by a quote from a film historian that's used to close the article:
::In his book The Story of Film film scholar Mark Cousins claims, "Next to Orson Welles and Alfred Hitchcock, Leni Riefenstahl was the most technically talented Western film maker of her era."
I take no issue with the quote per se appearing with the others at the top, but coming as it does immediately after the details of Riefenstahl's death, it smacks of a nasty sort of POV that's popped up in a lot of documentaries of late: the single, defining statement from a historian that puts the subject's legacy in some sort of poignant context. Please understand: It's not the statement but the placement of it with which I take issue.
I'd like to either move the quote so that it appears with the others, or eliminate it altogether. Thoughts? PacificBoy 02:35, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think its being there is a relic of older discussions and questions about how to source and build the article. I'm ok with the quote being either there or elsewhere in the text. Gwen Gale (talk) 09:28, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Final (NPOV?) comment from a film historian

message: In the article it is stated "Riefenstahl was tried twice by postwar authorities, she was never convicted in a denazification trial either for her alleged role as a propagandist or for the use of concentration camp inmates in her films."
I think this needs to be clarified, in terms of exactly what "convicted" means.  Also, according to all of Rother, Salkfeld, Bach and Trimborn, Riefenstahl went through four individual denazification tribunals, not just two.  The first tribunal was in Villingen.  The second and third were in Frieburg.  The fourth was in Berlin.  We should clarify that the finding was "nicht betroffen" (not guilty of any punishable offence) in the first, second and fourth tribunals.  In the third, under heavy pressure from the French military government along with increased attacks from the German press (in particular the "Revue" magazine), the tribunal found Riefenstahl to be a "Mitlaufer" - so-called "fellow traveller" (i.e., one who "went along" with the regime).  70.53.131.235 (talk) 19:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Detention and Trials 

message: I thought the article must be a GA article per the volume and contents, but well, I am wrong. It seems nobody ever has tried to obtain GA for the article or request Peer review. I think it has a potential to be the one. 
She lived long, so I don't think most of her films are in PD. However, I saw a whole movie clip on YouTube, so I wonder the movie is in pd or not. For the content sake, can we upload a short clip among her representative fimls to show her world of art as a fair use "image"? She was a great artist, and her cooperation with Nazi make many people curious about her work. Any thought?--Caspian blue 02:36, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just wondering about few things 

message: I wasn't sure if this should be incorporated somewhere? There are several references made to Leni Riefenstahl in this Tarantino film. She is mentioned in conversation and her name is visually displayed next to the cinema billboard for 'The White Hell of Pitz Palu'. She is also mentioned again in the basement bar in comparison with other actresses such as Marlene Deitrich. Teatreez (talk) 16:27, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: IG is utter fiction, although carefully drawn from historical roots. However, since both QT and the film are quite notable, a note about the cultural reference, sourced sternly to independent sources without a lick of original research, would be helpful to readers. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:57, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Inglourious Bastards references

message: I removed language in the opening paragraph stating that Riefenstahl was friends with Joseph Goebbels.  In Erik Barnouw's book, "Documentary: A History of the Non-Fiction Film," there is an extensive section on Riefenstahl.  Her relationship with Goebbels is desribed as one of "mutual resentment" and is later called a "waspish feud."  Barnouw cites material from the Spring 1973 issue of "Film Culture" by Gordon Hitchens as the source of much of his information on Riefenstahl.  Before restoring language calling Riefenstahl and Goebbels "friends," please cite a source.Andrew Koontz (talk) 13:41, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relationship with Joseph Goebbels 

message: As currently written, this implies that this act on Riefenstahl's part was completely voluntary; this is inaccurate.  After Goebbels created the Reichskulturkammer in September, 1933, all so-called 'non-Aryan' artists were banned from the realms of music, film, literature, architecture and the visual arts.  Regardless of her personal feelings on the matter, had Reifenstahl not removed the Jewish names of the contributors to her film(s), they could not have been shown in public.  The same retrictions were imposed on orchestral conductors; compositions by Jews were, by law, banned from public performance.  For further details, see Richard Evan's "The Third Reich in Power" and Saul Friedlander's "Nazi Germany and the Jews". Montydad (talk) 19:43, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Jewish names from Blau Licht's film credits with 1938 re-release 

message: LENI RIEFENSTAHL is an anagram of 'SENILE HITLER FAN' SmokeyTheCat 06:25, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anagram 

message: The section 'Detention trials' has zero citations or references. Because of the specifics, I doubt it is simply made up, but it could use some citations. 24.17.209.236 (talk) 04:53, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Detention trials - article improvement 

message: What is "They readily accepted her since they knew nothing of her past" supposed to mean? The Nuba would not have cared who Leni was.  They would not be obssessed with Nazis!203.184.41.226 (talk) 06:33, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nuba tribes 

message: I have restored the poster for this propaganda image after it was removed illicitly, and for no obvious and sensible reason. The film is of historic importance since it was Riefenstahl's first work for the nazis, but was then removed by Hitler after the Night of the Long Knives. 31.50.75.173 (talk) 06:55, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Der Sieg des Glaubens

message: I have restored the poster for this propaganda image after it was removed illicitly, and for no obvious and sensible reason. The film is of historic importance since it was Riefenstahl's first work for the nazis, but was then removed by Hitler after the Night of the Long Knives. 31.50.75.173 (talk) 06:54, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the poster both times per the consensus of the discussion Wikipedia:Non-free content review/Archive 33#File:DerSiegdesGlaubens.jpg. The consensus was that the image failed WP:NFC#UUI §6 on all articles except Der Sieg des Glaubens. Therefore I removed it per discussion.  If you do not agree with the discussion or the consensus, you can start a new one, but adding the image back into the article is not the appropriate way of handling this. -- ТимофейЛееСуда.  15:15, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This clearly a perverse decision, especially of a nazi item well out of copyright anywhere in the world. I have reversed the act of vandalism. 31.50.75.173 (talk) 15:50, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagreeing with a consensus discussion is against policy. Calling my removal of content per a consensus discussion vandalism is also against policy. You are also one revert away from violating WP:3rr. I personally do not care if it is included, but consensus is how decisions are made on Wikipedia.  Please use an appropriate channel to discuss your point of view. -- ТимофейЛееСуда.  16:30, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Der Sieg des Glaubens

message: There are some articles where it becomes particularly obvious that they where written by Germans.... this is one of them.
For example: "...who was 40 years her junior and assisted her with the photographs; they were together from the time she was 60 and he was 20."
Somehow the wording just sounds weird and it is obvious that such sentences where translated directly from German without really adjusting the pattern of the sentence.
Or a bit later:
"below-water photographs"
It's not like it is wrong... but wouldn't "underwater" sound better?
I am not really suited for correcting anything either, cause English is my second language as well...
Anyway, where are the Grammar Nazis when you need them?
--Hoerth (talk) 10:15, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: poor English

message: Substituted at 15:15, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: As of today, on the advice of a friend, I've done my best to improve this level-4 vital article with the purpose of getting it to GA-status. I have gone ahead and nominated it. No doubt the GA-review will take time and consume resources, so please join in with thoughts for improvement and whatever help you can when that time comes. Cheers, Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 16:50, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Significantly improved!

message: Under GA rules, this can be re-nominated in the future.  However, before anyone does so, they should read the numerous problems found in the GA1 review. Worthy subject matter.  But a great deal of work needs to be done on it. — Maile  (talk) 18:15, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Failed GA Nomination 

message: Okay, I finally got down to it and took care of ALL the problems outlined in the GA-review. It was a minor pain, but it's done as the articles edit history will show you. Because of this I'm going to re-nominate it for GA-status and ask the latest reviewer if he or she would be so kind to look at the article one more time. Stay tuned! Peace, Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 22:17, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Fixed problems in the failed GA-review

message: "She was praised for her body of work following her death...."
Perhaps better phrasing would be: After her death, she was praised for her body of work...  Unless she followed her death with even more work which would indeed be praiseworthy.  —T. Collins  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.165.192.127 (talk) 02:40, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Syntax 

message: I have reverted a previous contribution which removed posters of Reiefenstahl's early films, especially Triumph of the Will, which brought her some infamy. 86.133.37.255 (talk) 21:17, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've re-reverted your revert because it was determined that the posters fail WP:NFCC on this article.  The discussion was: Wikipedia:Non-free_content_review/Archive_53#Leni_Riefenstahl and I removed the images based on the consensus. If you want to re-add the image(s) you need to open a new discussion at WP:NFCR before reinstating them.  Cheers, TLSuda (talk) 23:41, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  The discussion was clearly biased and minimal. I have been editing this article for some time and shocked by the casual vandalism to which it is subjected. The posters add info for readers. 86.133.37.255 (talk) 07:17, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The discussion is purely about copyright, something that the editors at WP:NFCR are highly versed in.  This is not vandalism, but your constant re-addition against consensus is disruptive editing and grounds for blocking. You've been given the process on how to change this, and yet you refuse to go through the correct channels. TLSuda (talk) 13:39, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

text: It's laughable that the "discussion" (a total of 2 posts?! -that hardly constitutes a "discussion") described Riefenstahl as "the actress".  Clearly, those were some ill-informed participants, given that Riefenstahl didn't act in "Triumph des Willens"; she was its writer, director, producer and editor. Bricology (talk) 04:24, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

text: These images are woefully inappropriate under our rules and were (correctly) removed after a WP:NFCR thread.  If you would like to re-litigate that discussion, you are welcome to bring it there again, but the result will be the same. --B (talk) 22:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Reversion of images

message: I plan to research and contribute to Leni Riefenstahl’s article, analyzing the influence of the aesthetics of fascism on her filmography. I will look at the evolution of her work and see the influence of the socio-political climate she worked under. I will employ various journals, books, and other resources that analyze and refer to Riefenstahl’s earlier works, her works commissioned by Hitler, and post-Hitler and fascism films, and photography books, etc. I will use the following resources to aid me in my search:
Fehervary, Helen, Claudia Lenssen, and Judith Mayne. "From Hitler to Hepburn: A Discussion of Women's Film Production and Reception." New German Critique, no. 24/25 (1981): 172-85. doi:10.2307/488048.
Gardner, Robert. "Can The Will Triumph?" Film Comment 3, no. 1 (1965): 28-31. http://www.jstor.org/stable/43753296.
Hinton, David B. The Films of Leni Riefenstahl. London: Scarecrow Press, 2000.
Riefenstahl, Leni. The Sieve of Time: the Memoirs of Leni Riefenstahl. London: Quartet Books, 1999.
Rentschler, Eric. "Fatal Attractions: Leni Riefenstahl's "The Blue Light"." October 48 (1989): 47-68. doi:10.2307/778948.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ssieg22 (talk • contribs) 21:18, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Research Proposal 

message: She doesn't look Aryan. If anything, she looks Jewish. 2001:8003:A8E0:A300:4FA:259C:CA0F:1419 (talk) 04:16, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hitler's vision of Aryan womanhood?  

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:36, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: I really don't think it should be phrased this way..... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.205.229.192 (talk) 18:00, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "success" of the Holocaust?  

message: There have been rumors that Riefenstahl was Hitler's mistress. However, there is no proof of this. Riefenstahl, when asked about this matter, replied I was not Hitler's mistress - thought I was dazzled by him like millions of other Germans. I think that this should be added to the article. The reference is https://www.nytimes.com/1972/08/23/archives/leni-riefenstahl-returns-to-olympics.html and https://www.military-history.org/articles/leni-riefenstahl-hitlers-mistress.htm? 84.205.241.2 (talk) 01:15, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Was Leni Riefenstahl Hitler's mistress?