Talk:Edip Yüksel

message: the reference , , does not support the claim made in the article that many well known muslim scholars spraise his reformist translation of the Quran. In fact, among western professors teaching the United States, and an "apostate" socialist figure, not one of them is considered a muslim scholar. 
I will delete that claim from the main article as it is misleading and causes readers to think that his work is widely accepted by muslims. On the contrary, it is rejected by most muslims since its claims fall outside the boundaries of orthodox beliefs.
Aboomusa (talk) 23:03, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Well-known muslim scholars praise this article? I think not

message: I quote:
"Mr. Sina claims:
* "Islam is not a religion of love but a doctrine of hate." [3]
* "The ultimate goal of Islam is to rule the world; Islam is political and political Islam is fascism." [4]
He has consistently claimed that Islam is the greatest danger Mankind is facing today. However he also says that Islam is “a house of cards that will collapse if sufficiently pushed”, and that we may see the end of Islam within the next few decades. He has compared Islam both to Communism and Nazism, claiming that it will either collapse from within as the former did or have an apocalyptic end like the latter, after causing the death of millions and even billions in a nuclear Armageddon. [5]."
Here i dont see any phrase like "Ali's supporters claim him to be..." but a straightforward "Mr. Sina claims:...". So y these limitations on Edip's aticle?
:Please look at that article more closely: Everything you're citing is contained within quote marks. It's not like WP is stating that these are facts, or that Ali Sina, as channelled through Wikipedia, is the sole determinant of what the relevant facts are. There's nothing in that article in Wikipedia's voice that says:
:::Ali Sina's opposition to Islam arises from his conviction that little babies should be cared for tenderly and that homeless people should be provided with food and shelter. Note too Ali Sina opposes child pornography and takes care of small wounded animals like newborn kittens; his opposition to Islam must be understood as expressions of these convictions. What's more, in opposing Islam, Ali Sina has stated on numerous occasions that he approves of all that is good in the human spirit, and opposes all that is evil.
:No. You don't find that. That would be biased. That would not sound like an encyclopedia.
:What there is, to the contrary, is a series of quotes and claims about a controversial figure, reported more or less neutrally.
:And that's what you'll find in the version of this article I last edited: quotes and claims, reported (if I've done my job as an editor properly) with something approaching neutrality. If there are brief quotes (not monologues) of Edip's that you feel are relevant to the article and should be included, why not post them here on the talk page so we can discuss them?
:Also, with all respect, you may want to read Wikipedia:NPOV carefully if you have not done so -- before you try to make any more page edits. BrandonYusufToropov 6 July 2005 18:24 (UTC)
Khizar- You ignored the following part of Ali's article which ain't all quote:
"He(ali sina) has consistently claimed that Islam is the greatest danger Mankind is facing today. However he also says that Islam is “a house of cards that will collapse if sufficiently pushed”, and that we may see the end of Islam within the next few decades. He(ali sina) has compared Islam both to Communism and Nazism(see no quote but a phrase stating his beliefs), claiming that it will either collapse from within as the former did or have an apocalyptic end like the latter, after causing the death of millions and even billions in a nuclear Armageddon. [5].
So then what is wrong with Edip's para:
Edip Yuksel CLAIMS to promote monotheism and freedom, protection of the environment, peace, critical thinking, scientific method, and philosophical inquiry. He claimed to have come to the conclusion that the Quran Alone promotes all these values and hence should be the only source of religious guidance for mankind without hadith and that only this would lead to happiness both in this life and the hereafter. As an individual and as a member of the Islamic reform movement, he CLAIMS to stand against WHAT HE SEES AS evil, such as hero-worship, injustice, racism, violence, imperialism, unreasonable discrimination, oppression, torture, apathy, arrogance, greed, corruption, waste, misogyny, xenophobia, jingoism, sexual promiscuity, alcohol, drugs, gambling, economic exploitation, fraud, usury, condensation of wealth in the hands of few, and manipulation of masses via nationalistic and religious hormones.
:::Guess what? You have successfully identified areas where the Ali Sina article could be improved. They probably do need to source their text better. Once you've got the concept of NPOV down, you could go over there and edit the Ali Sina article yourself. But the fact that someone fell asleep over there doesn't mean I should take a nap here.  
:::You are arguing for inclusion of a long paragraph citing Edip's claims to support ideals that few people, if any, will go on record as opposing. This paragraph culiminates in a condemnation of "religious hormones" and "manipulation of the masses." Do you really think this is the kind of writing we will find in, say, the Columbia Encyclopedia?
:::So let's say you and I disagree. We discuss this on the Talk page for three days. You won't budge. I won't budge. Here's the problem with your version: it is so biased, and so over-the-top, that you're going to have a very hard time finding people who will support your edit. Especially (if I may add) when you attack people all the time. You're attacking me (see use of caps lock above, and use of loaded phrases like "You ignored..."), and I'm one of the people trying to keep this article from being deleted. So how are you going to win over people who are skeptical that this article should even exist, when you aren't even willing to try to build a constructive dialogue with me?
:::Again: Let's focus on a few relevant quotes from Edip that you feel should be in the article. Let's talk about them here on the talk page together.  If we work together, we can make the article better and more informative. BrandonYusufToropov 6 July 2005 18:54 (UTC)
Khizar- Finally wer getting somewhere. Im glad that you admit that Ali Sinas article needs improvement. However i dont think it has not be done coz ppl fell asleep there which is quite impossible since this is suich a famous enc. which is browsed daily n articles r taken care off. No i believe it was left there deliberately hence introducing bias. Anyways as for my use of caps i believe i apologized earlier. I tend to analyse things critically. Now for the quotes. Lets take the above to phrases out ok i agree. tht leaves us with:
"Edip Yuksel CLAIMS to promote monotheism and freedom, protection of the environment, peace, critical thinking, scientific method, and philosophical inquiry. He claimed to have come to the conclusion that the Quran Alone promotes all these values and hence should be the only source of religious guidance for mankind without hadith and that only this would lead to happiness both in this life and the hereafter. As an individual and as a member of the Islamic reform movement, he CLAIMS to stand against WHAT HE SEES AS evil, such as hero-worship, injustice, racism, violence, imperialism, unreasonable discrimination, oppression, torture, apathy, arrogance, greed, corruption, waste, misogyny, xenophobia, jingoism, sexual promiscuity, alcohol, drugs, gambling, economic exploitation, fraud, usury,  condensation of wealth in the hands of few, etc."
Or put it in quotes like this. Edip Yuksel claims:
* "I believe in monotheism and freedom, protection of the environment, peace, critical thinking, scientific method, and philosophical inquiry."
* "I came to the conclusion that the Quran Alone promotes all these values and hence should be the only source of religious guidance for mankind without hadith and that only this would lead to happiness both in this life and the hereafter."
* "I tend to stand against evils such as hero-worship, injustice, racism, violence, imperialism, unreasonable discrimination, oppression, torture, apathy, arrogance, greed, corruption, waste, misogyny, xenophobia, jingoism, sexual promiscuity, alcohol, drugs, gambling, economic exploitation, fraud, usury,  condensation of wealth in the hands of few, etc."
How abt tht now?
::It still seems a bit overcooked to me, but let's hear what other editors have to say. BrandonYusufToropov 7 July 2005 13:29 (UTC)
Khizar- Ok.
I like the current version (the short one). It presents a one-sentence summary of his most important beliefs and ties it in to his teachings very neatly, which gives it a broader perspective. I don't support re-adding the long (and, in my opinion, egregiously POV) paragraph. I would like to see it moved out of its own section, though...while "Views and Beliefs" would be important in a larger article, I don't think there's enough meat there to justify it at the moment. --MikeJ9919 7 July 2005 17:31 (UTC)
== I believe the deletion tag should be removed now == user:idmkhizar
Hi Khizar -- I am checking on this. Peace, BrandonYusufToropov 13:51, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brandon please look at whats on Ali Sinas article 

message: I don't think anyone save Edip and his followers wanted to work on this page while it was in limbo. Since it's to be kept, then it should be brought up to a better standard. Right now, it is STILL a vanity page. 
I am concerned about the claim to be a best-selling author in Turkey. I have been looking for someone familiar with Turkish literature and publishing who could support this claim (on Wikipedia and on Usenet) and have found no one willing to respond. I have tried to research the Turkish publishing industry online, and have found two articles, both from Qantara .de, a German site. 
The first article  discusses the book market in Turkey. It says that there are some 4000 original works in Turkish published each year; average press runs are 2000 copies. No statistics on average sell-through, no mention of best-seller lists. 
The second article  merely discusses the failure of most Turkish writers to find any market outside Turkey. 
I think I probably should have done this research before the VfD closed, as it seems to me that the people who voted to keep the article did so on the basis of the claims to Turkish fame, and didn't ask for any proof of this fame. I'm obviously skeptical, but willing to be proved wrong. 
Could Edip and his supporter Janjuah point me to some supporting material? I've already looked at the list of books on Mr. Yuksel's resume  and see no information there re best-seller-dom that is not supplied by Mr. Yuksel. Zora 05:57, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  If it's to be kept, it must be edited 

message: I have rewritten this article to reflect what I can confirm of the former page, stripping it of the boasting and unconfirmed claims. I have made attempts (on Wikipedia, Usenet, and LiveJournal) to communicate with English-speaking Turks who might be able to tell me if Mr. Yuksel is indeed "notable" in Turkey. I got very few answers; one fellow said vaguely, "I think I saw him on a couple of TV interview shows ..." 
Since I don't speak Turkish, I'm hampered. But I do think it unwise to rely on Mr. Yuksel to tell the truth about himself, since he seems to be prone to self-magnification. As are we all, alas! I'm not sure I'd trust myself to write an article about me <g>. If this rewrite spurs some input from Turkish-speaking Wikipedians, or anyone who can confirm some of Yuksel's claims, that's all to the good. Zora 07:07, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for all the hard work on this, Zora. If Edip or anyone else who might have preferred the previous version would like to discuss future changes, can I ask that we all do so here on the talk page, rather than simply spinning our wheels by making non-consensus edits to the article that may be quickly reverted? Many thanks. BrandonYusufToropov 15:28, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good work indeed, Zora. One major question that I'd like resolved...was he in prison, and why? The current version claims it was because of Islamist views. A previous version, I believe, said it was because he had converted to Qu'ran alone. Brandon, I believe you were the one who originally mentioned that he had been a political prisoner. Where did you get this information? If we can get just one piece of independent confirmation, I feel this is an important fact that shouldn't be qualified by "Yuksel says..." --MikeJ9919 15:59, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This was in conversation with Edip. It should be independently confirmed. BrandonYusufToropov 17:03, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  After an evening of assiduous googling 

message: An anon contributor added long details on the books, many of which talked about the books in first person ("I wrote" etc). While the anon may or may not be Mr. Yuksel trying to add to the list, much of the description sounds like a personal webpage containing commentries to the book contents. This is an encyclopedia, so please stick to the encyclopedic style in adding that. I also removed the best-selling claims as there is no proof other than hand-waving to back those claims. --Ragib 05:19, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits(apparently) from Mr. Yuksel

message: The publication list (which cannot be verified) was edited so that the summaries of the (claimed) publication contents were glorification of Edip and argumentation for his positions -- written by someone with a grandiose and wordy style. I have, as much as I could, edited out the puffery and argumentation. Others may wish to review my changes -- there may be more verbiage that could be pruned. Zora 20:00, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Argumentation in publication list 

message: The liness which i added on 30th november were FACTUAL QUOTES MADE BY EDIP HIMSELF and i can well quote those. Ali Sina has also been allowed to quote bad and nasty things against "islam".
: The extended quote from Edip that you added was meaningless drivel about how he loved children and flowers and cute puppies -- the kind of thing a politician says, trying to please people. It contributed no useful information to the article. Zora 12:57, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Other Muslim scholars don't love children and flowers and peace and goodness? That quote fails to articulate any coherent position. It is meaningless. It is not necessary. Zora 13:44, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  No one is puffing Edip Yuksel 

message: The quote is relevant because from there it can be derived clearly that Edip is unlike the majority of "muslim" scholars who employs the SCIENTIFIC METHOD in his studies. This point needs to be stressed in particular and it is from a factual quote. Johnny K.
: Reza Aslan employs the scientific method and does it without making grandiose claims for himself. The self-praising quote stays out. Zora 19:24, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Johnny, with all respect, it's an encyclopedia. George Bush may consider himself to be any number of praiseworthy things, and may be quoted factually in various media as having said so. But that doesn't mean the quote is by definition relevant to the George W. Bush article. See WP:NOT. We're not a propaganda machine (today's mainpage featured article notwithstanding). If you have a quote dealing with the scientific method directly, we should all review it and talk about it.BYT 19:37, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Mr. BrandonYusufToropov 

message: Why are the quotes I posted consistently being removed by user "Clown will eat me"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.130.76.191 (talk • contribs) 12:10, 12 January 2006  (UTC)
: As I explained on your talk page  Wikipedia is not the appropriate place for a long list of quotes.  Please use Wikiquote instead.  Thanks.  Can't sleep, clown will eat me 12:14, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of quotes

message: The ip address responsible for the vandalism of Edip Yuksel's page is that of the school computer lab where he teaches. I know this because I attend said school. I apologize, and will attempt to locate the individual or group responsible, and put a stop to the blatant vandalism forthwith! (also, the cucumber joke is due to the fact that Edip calls many students "cucumber".)
Mr13lake (talk) 18:49, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Cumber themed Vandalism 

message: since this article links to kassim ahmad's i will point out that kassim ahmad has an article in malay, indonesian, and russian:
https://ms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassim_Ahmad
https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassim_Ahmad
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BC_%D0%90%D1%85%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%B4
if someone has the time please translate one of these pages into english, thank you The5thForce (talk) 01:55, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason for deleting Kassim Ahmad from EN-Wiki was its lack of sources. EN-Wiki is very strict about biographies: Biographies of living persons created after March 18, 2010, without any sources (reliable or unreliable) or links to support the claims made in the article may be proposed for deletion and will be deleted unless at least one reliable source is added. So if anyone thinks about translating the mentioned articles, please be aware that you will have to add reliable sources, or else the article risks being deleted again. - HyperGaruda (talk) 09:49, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kassim Ahmad's page was deleted for no good reason 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Of the sources used in this version of the article, only citations #1 and #4 seem to meet WP:RS criteria. The others are largely Amazon.com book listings, his own website (19.org), his own publisher (Brainbow Press), Youtube videos, or other primary sources. I've trimmed the article accordingly. Snuish2 (talk) 17:28, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreliable sources