Talk:Word of Wisdom (Latter Day Saints)

message: As a member of the church, I thought that the article was true to the Word of Wisdom, however, I felt like I was reading a debate.  Shouldn't an encyclopedia article contain information about the topic, rather than a discussion of the pro's and con's?  I suppose it is trying to view both sides of the issue, but I would have preferred an article that stuck with information from our prophets and more in-depth about the blessings promised and background information of the church.
The article is confusing, and certain statements (i.e., paragraph about Joseph Smith having wine in prison) makes it sound like it is a trivial commandment that is not taken seriously.  Although, I do agree that we, as LDS people, should be more observant of the directions towards meat (I thought the part about meat being served at church functions regardless of the weather or temperature was actually amusing).
I wish this could be re-written as a more informative document, rather than a debate or pro vs. con.
: As another member of the church, I did not feel like it was a debate (although it seems the article has been revised a great deal since the above comment was written). One of the most interesting things about the Word of Wisdom is that the facts show it has been interpreted and applied in various ways over the past 150 years. It always will be important for LDS and non-LDS researchers to understand that churchwide adherence was not seriously demanded until Heber J. Grant. With the purported health benefits, it is also more of a 20th century development to focus on the health outcomes of the Word of Wisdom than social and economic outcomes. In Brigham Young's day, for example, he focused on the economic problems caused by coffee and tea addiction because they had to be imported (i.e., cash was going out instead of coming in). The colonization of the St. George area was in part an attempt to found a farming community where tobacco and other hot-climate crops could be produced without the need to import. The debate about caffeine is an interesting topic under popular application, because it represents the conflict among church members regarding caffeinated beverages that are not tea and coffee, while still providing the church's official statement. Jerekson (talk) 16:47, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Seems like a debate

message: Looks like it's been a while since there's been discussion here.  I have a few initial comments/suggestions.  First, why not include the full text of D&C 89 in the article?  Is there a copyright issue?  Or is something that old in the public domain by now?  It's not very long, and surely the original text is highly relevant.  Also needs NPOV in places.  And, why are we debating the health risks of coffee in this article?  It's already covered in Coffee.  Not sure about the entire last part of the article, in fact.  Is it appropriate to debate this here, or does that merely amount to collaborative original research?  Is it an artifact of pro and anti LDS people fighting in the past?  Friday 7 July 2005 03:00 (UTC)
The more I read it, the more I don't like this bit, near the beginning:  It contains health guidelines intended "[t]o be sent [to the church] not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom." The guidelines were given as a voluntary "principle with [a] promise", in order to combat the perceived "evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days".  The interspersed quotations make for a bumpy read.  If quotations are desires, why not quote the entire intro from D&C?  I'll try that and see how it goes.  Friday 7 July 2005 07:04 (UTC)
:The health code and modern medicine section is here because the Word of Wisdom claims that it is a health code. There needs to be an analysis about the evidence of real health effects of the practices included in the Word of Wisdom.  The risks and benefits are an abbreviated form of the information which appears elsewhere, hence the links to the main articles.  This is common throughout the wikipedia. Nevertheless, the information needs to be here.  The health risks of coffee is not being debated, but the benefits and risks are listed.  I'm willing to discuss the change, but I won't allow the deletion without a good argument. Nereocystis 7 July 2005 17:14 (UTC)
:Section 89 is in the public domain, but it is long enough (21 verses), and in sufficiently archaic language, that it probably wouldn't be a good idea to just quote the whole thing verbatim, without interspersing commentary. As to the "modern medicine" section, I don't think it should be an opinionated medical debate on the effects of alcohol or caffeine. Rather, it should be a factual discussion about how and why Mormons began in the 20th Century to look toward modern medicine (and/or pseudomedicine) to justify the revelation. The question of whether or not caffeine is good or bad can be left to the caffeine page. COGDEN July 7, 2005 17:42 (UTC)
: The downside of inserting commentary is that you're now presenting some particular person or group's interpretation of the text.  Altho, maybe it's appropriate to do this, but only with the official LDS interpretation, since they're by far the largest and best known group.  Would it be considered anti-Mormon POV though, to show for example the "hot drinks" verse side by the side with the modern interpretation that says "hot drinks" does not mean "hot drinks"?  I'm a newbie so I don't know what to think about issues like that.  I will say I do agree with COgden's remarks about the modern medicine section tho.  I don't think the question of whether or not caffience or alcohol is good or bad should be addressed on this page.  We're not here to determine whether the Wow makes sense from a medical point of view, we're here to document it as a religious text.  We can point out that the church teaches that it makes you healthier, without getting into whether this would be considered objectively true by the medical community. Friday 7 July 2005 18:01 (UTC)
::I'm confused by COGDEN's comments.  Does s/he think that the current section should be changed?  If so, what should be changed?  The current modern medicine section is not an opiniated debate, it is a list of a few studies which have examined health and items listed in the Word of Wisdom, with citations.  Because the Word of Wisdom is listed as a health code, it is extremely reasonable to determine whether the Word of Wisdom modifies health.  If the Word of Wisdom were listed as arbitrary required behavior which has no claims of influencing health, then listing medical studies may not be appropriate.  Allowing claims of health benefits without pointing out the truthfulness of these claims is extremely POV, effectively limiting the commentary to only the official LDS POV. 
::However, I agree about including the entire text of the Word of Wisdom.  It is probably too long to be useful.  There is a link to the entire text under references, though it can be a challenge to determine which link includes the entire text.  Try it.  I suggest modifying the references so that the link is more obvious, but I don't have the solution yet.Nereocystis 7 July 2005 18:08 (UTC)
:: I'm not sure I agree that the full text is too long to be included.  The article as it stands right now is far, far longer than the complete text of Section 89.  And, the current version contains things that are (IMO) far less relevant to the topic than would be the actual text of the revelation.  Friday 7 July 2005 18:30 (UTC)
::I'm not completely against including the entire text.  The WoW is fairly short.  However, I would not want to drop sections of the current text to make room the WoW, since there is a link to the complete text. I revised the link in the references section.  Is it any clearer? Nereocystis 7 July 2005 18:40 (UTC)
I think it would be highly appropriate to add a paragraph about "In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation." President Hinckley has given fairly well-quoted discourse about this specific verse. In this light, the difference between alcoholic beverages, for example, in Paul's time and today is simply how and why it is produced, and how it is advertised and sold. This could be viewed as a primary cause for the existence of the doctrine altogether. Bruce 05:46, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The most famous is probably this: "What are these evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men? It must be the tremendous amount of money the Lord saw they would spend in the last days in advertising to induce his children to use these things which are not good for men. Many millions of dollars are spent annually in the United States and other countries of the world to advertise cigarettes and other tobacco products, wine, beer, and other liquors, and coffee and tea, all of which have been proven to be injurious to the body and all of which the Lord indicated are not good for men." (LeGrand Richards, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, p.353) Looking up all citations to this verse (v4) in the LDSCL 2005, I have come up with about 230 references, most of which emphasize that it was created "in consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days. Thus, it would have had no application in the New Testament Church, but has specific application today. Bruce 03:23, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ideas 

message: An anonymous user claimed that beer was not allowed in early WofW. This is wrong.  Beer was allowed.  The changes also claim that other illicit drugs weren't known or invented at the time. Perhaps the user has not heard of opium, marijuana, betel nut, coca, etc. Nereocystis 05:38, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Beer allowed, and other illicit drugs

message: The section on the health effects of alcohol is good, it relates to the rest of the article, but the effects coffee seems to be something that could have been directly cut from a different article without connection to WoW.  Does anybody know enough to make a more direct link?
I admit to being amused by the '...such as this martini' picture, but are we sure that we should be putting jokes in the articles?  Or is it just me? MilesVorkosigan 19:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Martini picture and 'effects of Coffee'

message: I just thought I would ask about it here first, but the following comment seems a little incorrect: "on the campus of Church-sponsored Brigham Young University, caffeinated drinks of any kind are banned."  It seems apparent to me (a current BYU student) that the university doesn't "ban" these drinks, but that they are simply not sold on campus.  I would rather that the word be editted to read "not sold" instead of "banned."  I've walked around on campus drinking Mountain Dew often and nothing's happened to me.  Also, I think that introducing the phrase with "Interestingly" is a little POV, but I might be wrong about that; perhaps it is interesting, just not to me.  (Actually, I find it slightly annoying more than interesting.)  Comments? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by NoCoolName Tom (talk • contribs) .
:I agree with both points, thanks for clearing it up. Go ahead and make the changes. Tijuana Brass¡Épa!-E@ 04:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Interestingly, caffeinated drinks are not sold on the campus of Church-sponsored Brigham Young University."  I've removed this whole line, because BYU has sold them in the past.  It's simply discussions like this that cause them to stay clear of controversy.  But I was just in Deseret Book headquarters a few weeks ago, and the Coke distributor rolled on by with cases of caffeinated coke.  Maybe he was going elsewhere, but that makes no sense whatsoever.  The only reasonable explanation is that they sell caffeinated drinks at Deseret Book (church owned, church run; and 30 feet off of, and overlooking, Temple Square), so whether they sell them at BYU must be moot.--Mrcolj 22:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

text: But I believe the point of the statement in the article was that BYU not selling caffeine was on some level a tacit endorsement of that interpretation of the word of wisdom, which it is not because BYU only quit selling caffeine 15 years ago...  And if someone is tempted to take BYU's selling as a tacit endorsement, then the church's selling caffeine through one of its other official arms negates that assumption and bears being said aloud.  If BYU, the MTC and the temple cafeterias are the only church owned food dispensaries that don't sell coke, what's the point of the statement in the first place?  --Mrcolj 02:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I got a copy of the BYU catalog and admissions packet back in 1997.  I distinctly recall some of the material containing language to the effect that you could get kicked out of school for as little as having a tea bag in your dorm room (assuming that it was caffeine-containing rather than herbal tea).  Unless the policy has been changed, it ought to be in materials that BYU makes available online.  I'd look for it myself but don't have time right now; just wanted to mention that this is not a misconception or urban legend.  I also recall it stating that male students were not permitted to wear a beard (that is, Brigham Young couldn't attend Brigham Young University because of the way that he looked).  Heather (talk) 18:48, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, then, that would be BYU banning "hot drinks" which means tea and coffee, which is completely consistent with the Word of Wisdom, which all students have to abide by, church membership notwithstanding.  It doesn't have anything to do with other caffeinated beverages, such as Coke.  You can possess such on the campus as a student, you just can't buy it there. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 14:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: BYU Banned Caffeine?

message: Why are all the Doctrine and Covenants refered to by 'Covenants' and then the chapter and verse?  The chapter and verse is standard, but I've never seen the book refered to as 'Covenants' and can't see any possible reason for labeling it that way. The proper way to label it is 'Doctrine and Covenants' or 'D & C'. Sorry if I'm missing something obvious; I'm new to Wikipedia and a lot of things seem strange to me. Sergeanthowarth 06:48, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right in pointing out that it is not the standard (or accepted) manner of referring to the D&C. However, the only instance I noticed was the first reference, which read "Covenant 89". It's now fixed. Were there others that I've missed? Feel free to correct them yourself if you see any. Tijuana BrassE@ 07:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I corrected all the references, on 27 August 2006, to say "D&C 89" instead of "Covenant 89".  For chapter-only references, either "D&C 89" or "Section 89" would be acceptable — but no one in the LDS Church ever uses a cite like "Covenant 89".  Richwales 07:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Covenants'? 

message: I'm not sure I agree with taking out the paragraph about current LDS practice with regard to eating meat.  I think it would still be appropriate to include something mentioning that LDS do not generally avoid meat nowadays, even though D&C 89 does seem to suggest that this ought to be done.  Richwales 07:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just revised it.  See if you can stomach it's current wording. :-S — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:23, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meat? 

message: I, for one, can confirm the statements about caffine. I and most people around me make that disticntion, so we do eat chocolate, but do not drink coca cola unless it is caffine free. I know that it's not enough to have some people who do, but I'm just putting in my two cents about that citation needed tag. Silverfireshadow (talk) 23:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caffine 

message: (That's me who's confused, incidentally!) There's no explanation in the article as to why church members generally feel that, say, hot chocolate isn't covered by the prohibition. I looked up the reference in the footnotes, and found that the relevant passage says "And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly." It doesn't say "And again, hot drinks, except for chocolate and a few others, are not for the body or belly". Please understand that I am absolutely not interested in a religious argument here, since that would have nothing to do with the article. My point is that there is no explanation as to why, when, and how, the likes of chocolate, Ovaltine etc came to be thought of as not "hot drinks" within the meaning of the phrase. It's very far from obvious. 86.132.140.45 (talk) 17:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's in the section titled "Application by Joseph Smith, Jr.". It explains there that Hyrum Smith interpreted "hot drinks" as meaning tea and coffee, and that Joseph Smith, Jr. confirmed this interpretation. You have to read the article as a whole, including the historical sections; then it makes sense. Zoporific 22:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hot drinks confusion 

message: There seems to be a proliferation of speculation in this article and the tendency to add more and more such information. I suggest that these sections/speculations should not be included unless they can be adequately referenced with some sign that someone apart from WP editors are doing the speculating. Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Speculative sections

message: I notice on the general Wikipedia entry for the Church, in the part on the Word of Wisdom is lists black tea, but not green tea, as being covered by "hot drinks."  My understanding has always been that green tea is not permitted by the Word of Widsom because it is made from tea leaves rather than other fruits or plants, which are herbal teas.
This was certainly what was taught to new members in my mission in the former USSR 10 years ago.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.112.184.20 (talk) 23:11, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Something I've noticed lately is that friends of mine who live in Salt Lake county and are active, devout, temple-going LDS church members in all other respects, have taken to drinking green tea, drinking it cold or iced, justifying it by pointing to all the recent scientific research on its great health benefits, it has less caffeine than chocolate or cola, and the fact that they're drinking it cold, and some sense of a common understanding that it's therefore not against the Word of Wisdom. I've heard second-hand reports of LDS bishops, a mission president, and a general authority endorsing this view, and of the First Presidency at some point stating that tea is okay if it's taken as a medicine. I haven't found any support for this in print yet though. Anyone? - Reaverdrop (talk/nl) 22:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Avoid all habit forming substances.  Unless your body needs it, you should be able to do without.  This isn't doctrine, but good advice.  To me, its the purpose of the WofW, avoiding addictions.  Example: Nasal Spray.  If you use it consistently over a long time to get rid of sniffles, you might be hooked.  Although it won't jeopardize your soul, it is a habit that can't be good, and sort of shows a small lack of discipline.  If you use it when you get a cold to make it tolerable, but stop after it, then all is well.  I'm not advocating suffering through life, but actively making choices, instead of reactively/reflexively.  TAU Croesus (talk) 07:41, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tea 

message: There doesn't appear to be any mention of how other LDS groups (RLDS, FLDS, AUB, Strangite, et al.) interpret or apply this teaching.  I'm not sure where the best place to put it in the article would be, but perhaps a subsection à la the temple article would work. 66.191.19.68 (talk) 17:04, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other LDS groups. 

message: It seems odd to include a picture of the First Vision on this article. I realize that finding pictures for the topic is going to be difficult...but a more general picture of Joseph Smith, Jr. should be used, since the First Vision is mostly a disjoint topic to the Word of Wisdom. ...but what do you think? ~B Fizz (talk) 04:41, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  First vision picture? 

message: I made several additions to the article using sources that I cited during the revisions. These were changed without explanation.
If you want to make changes to the article regarding my changes to the article, please discuss these on the talk page first. Thanks. Jjc16 (talk) 21:52, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I think these changes should be discussed here first before being added to the article. An editor did make comments in his edit summary when removing these additions, and I agree with them: , , . The part about Utah being the highest state for incidents of depression has nothing to do with the Word of Wisdom. No study that was based on Word of Wisdom adherence is cited in the discussion. Adding comments about the health benefits of coffee consumption is interesting, but not really on point, since the Word of Wisdom isn't targeted at caffeine consumption as such. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:57, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I will concede the point about the depression article, because it is not specific to Mormon populations. As for the other changes, have you actually read the first article cited? It fully supports the edit I added originally. The addition should be obvious as well because coffee is a caffeinated drink. The difference between "coffee" and "caffeinated drinks" is an artificial one specific to the Mormon culture and not common to the general public.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jjc16 (talk • contribs) 22:09, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As another editor has noted I did give explanations in the edit summaries. I did read the article cited and did not see any text that directly supported those assertions that you added in. Perhaps I missed it though. Can you please quote specific parts or point to specific page/paragraphs that you feel support your edits? --FyzixFighter (talk) 22:22, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In context, it's kind of irrelevant anyway, since by 1842 leaders of the church were explicitly teaching that the Word of Wisdom prohibited specifically tea and coffee. It may be an artificial distinction unique to Mormon culture, but it's well established in Word of Wisdom adherence and practices. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:27, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revisions to original text 

message: In the text of the meat section, there are at least two statements such as this:
:"the emphasis on refraining from meat was dropped.[39]"
I think the number in the bracket was meant to refer to a previously used reference. This is not the correct way to refer to do this. However, the numbering of the footnotes has changed since this was originally done. Can someone more familiar with these changes match these up again? Thanks. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 13:06, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I second the request to clean up the meat section's references, please? Ryandsmith (talk) 15:27, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Meat refs

message: In D&C 89:16 it says "All grain is good for the food of man...", and then in D&C 89:16:
"Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain."(here)
What does this mean? Do some people in the LDS movement believe that oats, rye and barley are either undesirable or forbidden for human consumption? Also, what is meant by "mild drinks" -- does anyone believe that includes beer? It appears that barley is meant for "for all useful animals, and for mild drinks" (but that "mild drinks" may be made from "other grain"). Roches (talk) 05:34, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never seen anything written on your first questions, about the appropriateness of eating the different kinds of grain. Regarding the "mild drinks" issue, early Latter Day Saint leaders did interpret this as including beer and only strong alcoholic beverages were prohibited. This later evolved (under Heber J. Grant, I believe) into a blanket prohibition on any drink with alcohol in it, whether "mild" or "strong". Good Ol’factory (talk) 06:18, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Further discussion of grains (...wheat for man, and corn for the ox...)

message: Noble editor and administrator Good Ol’factory removed the following section as original research. While I agree with his edit, is this really the work of a sole editor or does this tidbit have some scholarly backing? The section in question (with my suggested edit):
:There are contradictory readings of the Word of Wisdom concerning eating meat only in winter, cold or famine. The current version of the text appears to teach this concept, and that is the most common interpretation. However, few people are aware that there was a change in punctuation when converting the text into columns in the year 1920. This simple change in punctuation reverses the meaning of the text in question, and it is unclear whether or not this addition of this comma compared to the original versions of the text 1835 Version of Doctrine and Covenants, page 208 and subsequent editions until 1920.   was deliberate or accidental. The phrase originally stated that meat "should not be used only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." This would indicate that, while meat should be consumed sparingly, it should not be eaten only in times of winter, cold or famine. This implies that it should be consumed in other times as well. This is supported by section 49 of the Doctrine and Covenants, verses 18 and 19 (See also 1 Tim. 4:1–3). Also, many scriptures are cited teaching that the beasts of the field should be differentiated from wild animals(See 2 Nephi 2:15; D&C 59:16; 88:14; 101:42; Moses 5:1; Ex 23:11; Deut.7:22). Therefore, according to this interpretation of verse 15, "these" refers to 'wild beasts' specifically, which should only be consumed during winter, cold or famine, while beasts of the field and fowls of the air may be consumed sparingly all year round.
— Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 15:29, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really doubt that what it being written is "true", meaning that it is fully supportable by the primary sources that are cited, but my concern is that nothing in the section is cited to reliable secondary sources that discuss the issue. Has anyone written about the contradictory readings that can exist? Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:24, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That was exactly my question. I think the primary sources are reliable, but I'm just wondering if anyone has written about the contradictory readings. If they can be cited, this section can go back in, with the sources properly ref'ed. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 14:21, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I think I slightly misunderstood your previous comment, but I think we're pretty much in agreement here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:27, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Meat original research

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I think that there are some advantages with the previous form of the lede for the article. Given that the article does focus on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I do think some of the new text emphasizing the Church are probably warranted. However, I think we lose something by not starting out pointing to the D&C section then getting into the specific interpretation and proscriptions of the Church based on that section
I also again am challenging putting both meat and grains, without any further explanation, in the same sentence as alcohol, tea, coffee, tobacco, and recreational drugs. The proscriptions on the latter set are explicit and mandatory - that's what is required for baptism, missionary service, and temple attendance. The guidance to eat meat sparingly isn't treated the same way in the Church neither culturally nor practically, and not following that guidance would not prevent baptism, missionary service, and temple attendance. I am truly at a loss for why another editor is insistent on adding grains to the list of proscriptions. I do not see anywhere in the cited sources or the rest of the article where grains are prohibited either entirely or in part (like meat). I think this might be a misreading or misunderstanding on their part, but maybe I'm missing something.
Given the above, I'm going to try to re-add some of the material from the previous lede, including separating meat from the explicit proscription list. Again, if someone can explain where the grain thing is coming from, I'd appreciate that because I'm just not seeing it in the sources or the article (or from my own experiences in the Church). --FyzixFighter (talk) 01:31, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The verse that had prohibited grain is D&C 89 14-15. Altanner1991 (talk) 02:57, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

text: No reliable source refutes it therefore we have to include it. Altanner1991 (talk) 03:09, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem with that argument is that it is interpreting a primary source, and I would argue misinterpreting. The "these" in verse 15 is usually taken to refer only to the "beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth". I'm basing this in part on the Church's own summary of the Word of Wisdom here. I have not come across any secondary source or Church publication talking about the Word of Wisdom that agrees with your argument. Do you have a reliable, secondary source that I may have missed that supports that interpretation? --FyzixFighter (talk) 04:02, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok thank you. Altanner1991 (talk) 15:56, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent lede edits, meat, and grains