Talk:House of Dolls

message: There seems to be some disagreement on whether Joy Division refers to Aryan or Jewish women. -- v 05:49, November 18, 2002
:I'm sure it was the latter- some of the women from the concentration camps were kept by and used as prostitutes for the camp guards- these were known as the Joy Division- there was alot of controversy over Joy Division's choice of a name in the music press at the time quercus robur 06:00, November 18, 2002
::Interesting.  I had always thought it was a reference to Jewish women, but then the 24 Hour Party People film and reviews claimed it was "Aryan women."  Maybe the filmmakers were indulging in some revisionism so their movie wouldn't be as controversial as its subject? --Anon. 12:20, December 15, 2002
:Pretty sure it was Jewish women Kabads 12:21, December 15, 2002
I'm sure it was aryan women.   Its very possible that Jewish women were also abused in a similar way.  I suppose it varied from country to country and camp to camp.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.45.160.165 (talk • contribs) 22:17, February 5, 2004
Definitely Jewish women. 24 Hour Party People got it wrong, whether intentionally or not, though I would suspect the former. Just try finding a reference, apart from that movie and various reviews of it, that says anything about so-called "Aryan" women being forced into sexual slavery for German soldiers. You won't find one. Buck Mulligan 00:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Aryan or Jewish women?

message: "The House of Dolls" is usually described as a novel.  Is there a serious history book that supports this article?  --Zero 14:04, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Query the source

message: There is the claim, that "Some suffered horrid "medical" experiments on their bodies.". Is this written in the Book? I can not remeber. Or is it just something someone added?
:Yes, it is written in the book. The most significant section is in Chapter 12, which describes the Surgical Experiment Department. TitusD 12:48, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Detail of the book 

message: It seems that this article should be split into two articles. One article for the novel (The House of Dolls) and another about the historical women called "Joy Divisions" — this, of course, if such an article can be properly cited. I imagine such a split would go a long ways to seperate fact from fiction. Thoughts? jareha 05:03, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: They used to be separate and were combined because no reference to "Joy Divisions" outside the book were found. --Zero 06:41, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I found plenty of references to "Joy Divisions" and Nazi Germany with just a simple Google search. I'd say that's a better judge of the worthiness of a topic than internal wikilinks. jareha 07:16, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know, all these references are traceable back to the book.  To show that there is anything to the story that doesn't come ultimately from the book, we need something like a reference in a history book or an independent testimony.  Preferably we need a reference to somewhere that a competent historian has investigated the claim and found that it is true.  Can you find anything like that?  --Zero 08:16, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll do my best to try. jareha 19:14, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Split suggested

message: This story is highly dubious, rapings may have happened. But organized brothels with jewish women for German soldiers in concentration camps? That would've been a serious offense of the Nuremberg Laws and would've been punished with prison. Literature about German warcrimes is abundant. Isnt it possible to find other sources then a novel?--Tresckow 21:14, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A novel is not a source, it is fiction. Sources here should be to the literary significance, critical comment and verifiable comments made in the article about the novel. What the "fiction" includes is what is in the novel, period. The facts of the events during the period, place and time being covered it for another forum. This is to discuss the construction and merits of this wikipedia article. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 17:38, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  but pepople keep insisting it would be fact. thus linking it to warcrimes. the internet has no real entriy whatsoever on "Deutsches Soldatenhaus", Yad Vashems Database doesn´t either. No history books are cited as reference. Still some people think this dubious book represents facts. if so why is nobody able to cite a history book?--Tresckow 16:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please state your point clearly. What is your suggestion related to the improvement of the article? `'mikka 20:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

text: take out the categories about warcrimes. either it is a novel or it is fact. if it is fact, as somebody could think, there should be sources. other than literature sources.--Tresckow 14:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  A search of a large public library for "concentration camp prostitution" turned up "Sexuality and German Fascism" which references primary oral and documentary sources for Jewish inmates being forced to provide sexual services to German guards. See footnote 64. 150.101.30.44 (talk) 06:29, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: I have removed :Category:Literary hoaxes, because there is no clear argument in the text that this is a literary hoax.  If some reliable source could be cited (and an argument summarized), then please do so and add the category back.
: I believe the documentary "Stalags: Holocaust and Pornography in Israel" by Ari Libsker is clear enough in classifing the book as fiction.  The fact that it may not always be correctly identified as fiction, and definately was not identified as such right after it was published, could qualify it as a literary hoax. 76.29.111.57 (talk) 18:11, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category:Literary hoaxes