Talk:Survival horror/Archive 1

message: I do not personally believe that Devil May Cry belongs in the Survival Horror Genre, as DMC lacks some major points of Survival Horror.
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1. "Though most commonly associated with the Resident Evil mechanics described above, games where the player is made to feel underpowered, generally fighting alone for the bulk of the game, with limited supplies (especially ammunition and health (hence "survival"). Survival horror game
Dante (The Main Character) is by far not underpowered against the regular enemies. Boss Battle are not counted. His guns have unlimited ammunition, but all medical items are limited.
2. "Other games such as the Doom and Alien versus Predator series include horror elements, but give the player a sense of being very powerful. Such games are not typically considered survival horror because the "survival" aspect is not present. Survival horror game
I consider that DMC is situated in the same category as Doom and AvP. They all include elements of survival horror, but at the same time give the player a character who is not considered to be "weak". DMC does have a certain element of "Survival" in the game, but it does not play a major role as it does in Resident Evil or Alone in the Dark, for example.
3 "The game also features some puzzle-solving and exploration elements retained from its survival-horror beginnings, but these are downplayed; Devil May Cry puts emphasis on action." Devil May Cry
The Wikipedia Article clearly states that DMC has all the characteristics of a Survival Horror Game and even a history, as it was originally meant to be a Survival Horror game, But its emphasis is clearly on enjoyable (this can be debated) action. Therefore it cannot be counted as a Survival Horror game.
4"However, in prototype status, it proved to be too different from the Resident Evil series and the survival horror genre in general." Devil May Cry
This is the final point. Even though it is borrowed from the original wikipedia Article (I dont know how "legal" that is in this kind of a debate, but I'll try.) it clearly states that it was "too different" from the original concept of a "Resident Evil" game and from the genre in total.
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I also did a bit of search on the web:
*Gamespot quotes DMC as a "Fantasy Action Adventure" game.
*Gamespy quotes DMC as a "Action, Adventure" game.
*IGN does not specify the genre, but it does not comment it as a "Survival Horror Game" in its Review or Game Page
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That is it. The "Survival Horror" part should be removed from the game description and DMC should be removed from the Survival horror game article. Arctic-Editor 17:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Devil May Cry? 

message: Can BloodRayne be classified as a survival horror game? I would personally categorise it under third-person shooters. It does not employ claustrophobic environments or puzzles, nor does it attempt to scare the player. Rather, it is more of an action game or third-person shooter, with horror elements. This page seems to include games very liberally, on the mere basis of horror elements. I would be perfectly happy to call BloodRayne "horror", but I think that "survival horror" is unsuitable. Danikolt (Talk) 18:03, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. I can't know because I haven't played the game. You see, it's already a hard to classify genre, so we can only ponder. If you think the game doesn't belong to the list, I think it's alright to take it off. – Kaonashi 18:20, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: Well, you're right. For example, someone had added Zombies Ate My Neighbors to the Survival horror games category. I had to change that, obviously. Check talk page to see it. So yes, it's hard to classify and we can only use common sense with this. About DOOM, I don't know. Check the new DOOM 3 for example. I don't know about you, but I get a strong survival horror feeling from that. Sure, the ammo is pretty abundant, but the atmosphere is pretty much survival horror. That's what I think. – Kaonashi 20:30, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  BloodRayne 

message: I'm surprised no one has mentioned Friday the 13th for the Commodore 64. This was the first real Survival Horror game I played. You played a random character in a small town and were surrounded by a dozen other people...one of which was secretly Jason. Every few minutes, there would be a scream as Jason murdered someone. You had to try to visit various homes to find out who it was and kill them. It had the absolute creepiest music for the time. --WillDarlock 22:28, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  First game? 

message: Ground 12:34, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good article. 

message: What do you guys think about removing the list of games from this page and just linking to the category instead?  Seems like it would tighten up the article, and then we wouldn't have to maintain two lists in two places.  --waka 19:21, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't remove the list. It's the only connection the reader will have between the genre and the titles themselves. You can think of the categories as another list, but those things are different. That's also located at a different place. A link to that will never have the same effect of a list on the body of the article. Maybe you think all the discussion in regards to the definition of the genre here and "what game is survival horror and what isn't" is a good reason to remove the list and end this, I think it isn't. The list doesn't need to be perfect and 100% accurate. There's a note right there explaining people that. I know, because it was me who put it there.--Kaonashi 02:10, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Ok, I don't really feel strongly about it one way or the other.  Perhaps we can add some context to the list.  The First Person Shooter page is really nice because it lists a select number of games that tie into the other information (history, etc) documented on the page.  The Platformer page has something like that as well, and it's very nice.  The Fighting game page has even separated out a list of fighting games, though the list lacks context and isn't as informative as the FPS or Platformer pages.  One of the other things that many other genre pages contain is a chronological list or map of the evolution of the genre.  I'd like to add something like that... what do you guys think? --waka 04:07, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to reiterate my call that we change the games list to be a shorter list of significant games with more commentary and make another page or rely on the survival horror games category for an exhaustive games list.  I think we should have a few games that were pivotal to the development of the genre listed with in-depth commentary.  The category should be used as an exhaustive list of games within the genre.  The fighting game article has a whole separate list of fighting games, the first-person shooter article has a very in-depth history section with specific game examples, as well as a list of "Selected important games in FPS development," and a separate page containing List of first-person shooters.  The Platform Game article also has separated an important games list and an exhaustive List of platform games, and even the music game and puzzle game articles have separated their games list from their main article.  I think we should do the same, and I'll even volunteer to make the changes. --waka 04:06, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd go with that. Despite the boundaries of survival horror being somewhat blurred, it remains a sub-genre of action adventure with a couple of exceptions, there are not many survival horror games and a game featuring horror is not by definition survival horror either. This page should reflect the core similarities of SH games and offer some of the obvious examples. Even with a seperate list, I'd suggest that we keep it to games which are widely regarded as SH and omit any almost-but-not-quites. When I came here yesterday I noticed that Shadow Hearts was, for some bizarre reason, listed as SH. Eh? Same goes with others on the list. Is there not a horror game category? If we're going to talk about a wide-reaching genre or method of identification then surely that'd be a better jumping-off point then everything remotely horror-related being lumped into SH? Anyways, I'd fully support the suggestion you posted in Sep 2005 Waka, to list and break-down a handful of games to give readers a handle on what SH is. QuagmireDog 01:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm still up for it, but I don't want to make the change if it's just going to be reverted by somebody who disagrees.  So a year and a half later, does anybody still disagree with this approach? --waka 04:14, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Scratch that. Eyes open, brain on. The usefulness of the list is extremely debatable, however since many games have already been featured in the article, those entries can be removed. I'll do so, making sure that they are already in the SH category. At least then, the remaining games are at least those not already in the article. Eventually the need for a half-complete list will vanish, but in the meantime it can be shrank somewhat. QuagmireDog 01:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The list is unnecessary.  We only need a couple - a few at most - notable exceptions regarding the genre. If people want to keep the list, it can be moved to a "List of survival horror games" article, as per the norm.  Personally, I don't think that's even necessary, though. Gamer Junkie 05:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove the games list? 

message: Is survival horror really only applicable to games? I have always used it for books, movies etc that fir the feel and mode. Scix 00:32, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems like other media already have their own horror classifications (like film has the slasher, the thriller, the gore-fest, etc).  I'm not sure how applicable the term is to other types of media.  Also, the page points out that survival horror games make a concentrated effort to induce fear through interaction, which is something other media cannot claim. --waka 13:40, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What about, then, for example, the movies and comics based on the games? Scix 17:31, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Again, pretty tricky.  Is the Resident Evil (movie) movie a horror movie or an action movie?  What aspects of themes of isolation, ammunition rationing, or puzzle solving are present in Alone in the Dark (movie) ?  I think it's better not to pollute the phrase with other media. --waka 01:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How about at least a mention that Survival horror has inspired works in other media? Do you think that would clutter things unduly? Scix 20:02, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Sure, that sounds fine to me.  Why not just make a See Also category? --waka 01:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I started something along these lines ... hopefully I (or others) will recall more examples. D'you think the wording is unclear? Scix 01:52, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I cleaned up your edits to move the list into a paragraph and added a couple of links.  Looks good to me! --waka 14:37, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, thanks. I guess, since all we have listed are adaptations it is more sensible to treat them as such. I know there are other works inspired by but not actual adaptations of, but I am having a hard time remembering now -- I rather wish I'd written it down when I first had the thought. Still, an adaptations section, int he interim, makes sense. Scix 18:43, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Other Media

message: Could Maniac Mansion be classified under this genre? It seems to have a lot of the requirements: A hanuted mansion, various tam members that you can shift through, a puzzle solving structure, multiple routes and endings, etc.
Does it warrant a mnetion?
: I think it fails the "horror is the defining game play characteristic" requirement of our definition of the genre.  There's some discussion above about other games with elements of horror that do not meet our definition (Castlevania, etc).  --waka 03:58, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine, but I don't think that the article itself is improved by increasing the number of games in the list (not that I have any problem with Alien: Resurrection).  There's some discussion above about removing the games list and relying only on the survival horror games category, and I'd like to reiterate my feeling that we do not need a long games list in the main article.  See my new comments above. --waka 04:06, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Maniac Mansion

message: Hi, I removed your edits because they added more words to the article without actually adding any content.  I didn't see any information added that wasn't already there, except that you included Undying in the list of example FPS horror games and suggested that Castlevania had some elements of survival horror (see the lengthy discussion on this topic above).  If there was something more specific that you wanted to say, please put it in; your edits appeared to be rather superfluous to me, but maybe I missed a point you wanted to make.  --waka 07:07, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Master Deusoma 

message: This article misses another heavy influence on the genre that came four years before Alone in the Dark. It's Project Firestart (1989) by Dynamix for Commodore 64. The game was partialy redesigned to ride the wave of popularity of movie Aliens but contains all the elements of the clasic Survival Horror game. The "no escape" situation (main character is on a spacestation and his ship was blown up after docking), thick horror atmosphere, and puzzles. Runing away and geting around oponents is encouraged and in some cases imperative. Game has multiple endings both good and bad. If Resident Evil was influnced just a bit or not at all by this game Resident Evil 2 is a straight copy with zombies, more fighting and more complicated puzzles. Sadly this gem is mostly overlooked ot puted down for reasons unknown to me.--Carnex 01:38, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Project Firestart 

message: Is there any reason why this article is called Survival horror game? While it's certainly a gaming genre, it may give readers the impression that there's a game named "Survival horror", whether there is such a game or not is irrelevant as this article is talking about the genre. I think this article should be renamed/moved to simply being Survival horror. --Remy Suen 22:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there any interest in this? I think it should either be switched to 'Survival horror' or 'Survival horror games'. 'Survival horror game' at the moment does not really sound right nor grammatically correct. --Remy Suen 22:04, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Done. --Remy Suen 22:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Requesting move: "Survival horror game" to "Survival horror"

message: Resident Evil 4 can hardly be considered a "Survival horror" title.  It's a shoot 'em up action game from the get go. Does anybody else agree?  Even the back cover of the game itself says "Forget survival horror." Gamer Junkie 06:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Resident Evil 4

message: I may be the only person who will admit that they actively own and plays this game to this day, but am I the only one that thinks it should count in the Survival Horror game list?
I know the game is a bit mixed: there is an unlimited amount of ammunition available, but unlike other games on th elist, Deep Fear actually has a thick atmosphere and enemies that don't fight as humans would, nor is there a heavy emphasis on action; the human characters actually act human.
Is there else anyone here that agrees?
Mairebleu 20:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd list it.  It's basically a Resident Evil clone, so I can't see how we could exclude it.  That said, I don't like the games list in this page: I think it should be moved to its own page like List of notable survival horror games or something. --waka 23:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Deep Fear not on the list?

message: I cannot help but express confusion as to the selection of Onimusha being on the survival horror list here as I fail to see the real atmosphere of any of the fantasy/action games.
For too long many people have considered any media with immense blood shed and creatures involved in the shedding as horrific, but when such creatures are capable of wiping out cities worth of people using human weapons and silly wall-running moves, one can't help but wonder why a series such as this would truly be considered horror.
The description of the game itself even admits the action often eliminates what horror would be in the game, so why is it still here?
I propose that the Onimusha series be removed from the Survival Horror category as it is not a good example of the genre.
Anyone else concur?
Mairebleu 20:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am in agreement with you, but the genre definition is so subjective that maintaining the list is almost futile.  See the discussion about Castlevania we had above.  Another reason to move the list out of the main page. --waka 23:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Onimusha series horrific??

message: As it stands, the entire article looks like OR. A major problem lies in confusion of how specific of a genre this really is. It's been stated before that the Alien vs Predator isn't survival horror, but nobody can convince me that the human missions aren't the very essence of survival horror. The way the genre is classified in the article is horrible anyways. Comments such as "The player's goal is generally to escape from an isolated house or town that is inhabited mostly by zombies and/or monsters through fighting and puzzle solving." seem to specifically only be talking about Resident Evil. Perhaps we should rework the article to be for horror games in general, and have a good section be for the "survival" horror type. "Survival horror" is pretty much a synonym for any scary game anyways. --SeizureDog 20:49, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't there already an article regarding the definition of horror? I'm not exactly sure how you'll go about sourcing the term "survival-horror." I'm not even sure there is a universal term or category for the subject. Gamer Junkie 07:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as there's a list at all, it'll be exhaustive.  No matter how much you trim or cut a list, additions will always find their way into the article because everybody has an idea of what survival-horror is and everybody has a game that fits that idea.  Either the list has to go entirely, or it has to stay the way it is. Gamer Junkie 17:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The proposal discussed above involved creating a new page for the exhaustive list (comparable to the List of platform games or List of first-person shooters) and then limiting list on the survival horror page to a few games deemed important to the history of the genre.  These games would include detailed commentary about their role in the evolution of this genre, much like the History section of the Adventure Game page.  I agree that we'll never be rid of an exhaustive list, but I think we can get away with moving it to another location (or relying on the survival horror category) and improving the commentary in this page. --waka 18:13, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree with that, but the anti-"cruft" bureaucrats would likely seek to merge it all back into this article again as soon as such a page was created. Gamer Junkie 19:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes. Our definition should be what reputable sources tell us it should be. If those sources differ in opinion then that difference should be noted. A lot of discussion on this page is argument over what is original research and personal opinion - all aspects of the article (and games defined as survival horror) should come from sources, not our individual preferences. QuagmireDog 12:53, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needs an sourced definition of the term 

message: I always felt that Half-Life seemed like mixture of sci-fi and survival horror. Thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.138.52.161 (talk) 03:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Half-Life 

message: I was thinking, since this talk page has shown just how controversal and opinioned this really genre is, maybe we should require that we cite articles that we're putting into :Category:Survival horror games with a reputable source calling it survival horror. That category can serverly undermine this article if the wrong articles start creeping into it. For instance, is Nightmare Creatures really survival horror? Or just action horror? Also, the games in :Category:Psychological horror games really need to be cited, as I'm suspicious right now as to if that's not just OR. And even if it's not, it may be too small to have on its own. Remember that we do have a :Category:Horror video games for non-survival, but still horror themed games. --SeizureDog 03:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nail > Head. I think it all needs doing. I'd come to the conclusion that the way of doing so with the least meowling and hissing would be to cite and shore-up the SH article as much as possible, then to start checking each of the listed games. If they needed reviews stating that they're SH then I could add them to each one, ensure they're in the category then remove them. That way the job is done. On a brighter note, most of what is here on the SH article is going to be citable and/or rewritable so that it fits in, it's just the obscure and retrogames which are going to be problematic. QuagmireDog 10:29, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am still committed to doing that, but it takes time for me to do these things (slow and steady wins the race). We'll get there eventually. Thanks and congrats to the contributors who wrote the article, you've provided an excellent base to improve survival horror's showing on WP. QuagmireDog 02:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thoughts on the survival horror game articles