Talk:Egypt/Archive 3

message: ----The earliest recorded Egyptian dynasty united the kingdoms of Upper and Lower Egypt around 3000 BC. Today's Egyptians are proud of the Pharaonic heritage that followed. In 525 BC, Egypt came under Persian control. Alexander the Great's conquest in 332 BC brought Greek rule and culture to Egypt. One of the first nations visited by Christian missionaries, the apostle Mark is generally believed to have brought Christianity to Egypt in AD 57. Egypt became Christianized within three centuries and followed a Coptic patriarch. Egypt came under the rule of the Roman Empire in AD 31. Because of doctrinal differences between Coptic Christians and the Romans, Egypt's Copts often faced religious persecution. The Muslim invasion, in AD 642, brought a new, albeit more tolerant, invader to power.
By the eighth century, Egypt had become largely Muslim. For centuries, it was ruled by successive dynasties, including the Ottoman Turks in the 16th century. France's Napoleon invaded in 1798, but Egypt was still associated with the Ottoman Empire until World War I.
France and Britain vied for influence over Egypt throughout the 19th century, during which time Viceroy Muhammad Ali successfully governed and reformed Egypt (1805–48). France and Britain exerted increasing control over Egyptian affairs after the completion of the Suez Canal in 1869, and Britain made Egypt a protectorate in 1914. Although given official independence in 1922, the Egyptians regard 1952 as the beginning of their real independence. In that year, a military coup led by Gamal Abdel Nasser overthrew the British-supported monarchy and brought Muhammad Najib to power as the first president of Egypt. In 1953, Egypt was declared a republic. Nasser ousted Najib in 1954, replacing him as president. Nasser became an influential leader and statesman and was responsible for a number of reforms, including land reform, universal education, nationalization of major industries and banks, and Egyptian leadership of the Arab world. He governed until his death in 1970.
During Nasser's tenure, Egypt fought two wars that involved Israel (1956 and 1967) and lost the Sinai Peninsula in 1967. Upon Nasser's death, Anwar el-Sadat became president. His government orchestrated a war (1973) in which Egypt regained a foothold in the Sinai. Sadat liberalized economic policy and signed a peace treaty with Israel (1979) that returned the Sinai to Egypt. In 1981, Sadat was assassinated by Muslim extremists who disagreed with his policies. He was succeeded by then vice president Hosni Mubarak.
Fundamentalists, led by the Islamic Brotherhood, began pressing in 1991 for an Islamic state that would shun Western art, music, literature, and values. They have pressed the secular government to restrict freedom of expression, liberal education, and secular law. In the past, they have made assassination attempts and committed violent acts against Coptic Christians, Western tourists, and government installations. However, the group now formally rejects the use of violence and has become a part of the democratic government, although members of its party are officially banned under a law prohibiting religion-based political parties. 
Egypt is recognized as a leader among Arab nations, politically, culturally, and economically. Egypt was the first Arab nation to sign a peace treaty with Israel (1979). President Mubarak has taken an active role in the peace process with Israel. He also has reached out to former enemies, such as Sudan and Iran, to improve regional stability, though relations with Iran remain tense. Domestically, his government has reduced inflation, liberalized trade restrictions, moved to privatize state companies, deregulated some industries, and implemented other reforms that have led to economic growth. Mubarak was reelected to a fifth presidential term in September 2005. His government continues to steer a middle road that maintains Egypt's traditions while adapting to modernity.
Tensions between Muslims and Coptic Christians have increased in recent years. In 2010, clashes erupted in the southern Egyptian city of Nag Hammadi. A number of people were killed and homes and businesses were burned before security forces restored order.
The text in question:
:The Twenty Fifth and Twenty Sixth Dynasties were marked by the Kushite/Ethiopian rule of Egypt. With some interruptions by the Assyrians, there was a line of Nubian rulers of Egypt from around 750 B.C. to 332 B.C. which overlaps into the Persian/Twenty Seventh Dynasty.
:A prominent pharoah during this period was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taharqa. (Taharqa) ruled upper Egypt from around 688 B.C. to 662 B.C. Defeated once by the Assyrians he again regained power and declared himself ruler of all Egypt. During his reign, Taharqa controlled the largest empire in Ancient Africa. He built a temple of solid granite at Jabal Barkal in the Sudan. He also built another temple to the gods Osiris and Ptah. Scholars have identified him with Tirhakah, king of Ethiopia, who waged war against Sennacherib during the reign of King Hezekiah of Judah (2 Kings 19:9; Isaiah 37:9). He built temples in Sanam, Kawa, Atribis, Pnubs, Semna, Kasr Ibrim, and in the Theban district. Trading increased dramatically during his reign, fostering economic, religious and cultural activities in both Egypt and Ethiopia. His remains were excavated from a pyramid in Nuri in 1917 by an expedition sponsored by Harvard University.
----
It was probably removed because it is too detailed for this article; there is not enough room to mention every leader over the many thousands of years of Egyptian history.  Some of this information might be more appropriate for the article Taharqa, but needs cleanup.  See Talk:Taharqa for my comments. 
What is the source of your information about the Thirteenth dynasty of Egypt?  This article does not currently mention it; perhaps you were confusing it with the Thirtieth dynasty of Egypt? -- Beland 03:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Historical accuracy

message: I am concerned by the manner in which some articles relating to Egypt have been edited in a biased, partisan, and inaccurate way. I have attempted to remedy this situation, but have encountered considerable resistance from some other contributors.
The edits I have made to the Egypt page are essentially either:
A) technical, such as correcting the official name of the country as "Gumhūriyyat Miṣr el-ʿArabiyyah", where formerly it read "Jumhūriyyat Maṣr el-ʿArabiyyah" (Misr rather than Masr is correct in this instance, since Masr is the Egyptian Arabic vernacular not the official standard as used by the Egyptian Government - note that in this instance the "g" rather than "j" in "Gumhūriyyat" reflects the official standard in Egypt in addition to the vernacular) and placing the modern Arabic names for the country before the anachronistic names in the now unused Egyptian/Coptic as such - "Egypt (Arabic: مصر Miṣr ; Egyptian Arabic: Máṣr; Egyptian: km.t ; Coptic: Ⲭⲏⲙⲓ Kīmi ; )";
B) the insertion of better English (the introductory paragraph regarding Sinai - Sinai is poorly described as a land bridge TO Asia since it IS in Asia).
However, there are 2 matters of greater concern. Firstly, the removal of mention to the Arab World when it appears next to the term Middle East. Inclusion of this term is common sense, and indeed necessary to inform the reader. It is a larger geo-cultural region to which Egypt is inextricably linked, and as such, its inclusion is factually accurate and important for informative purposes. Its deliberate exclusion can only be symptomatic of a general anti-Arab prejudice by some contributors who seek to deny or downplay the Arab aspect of Egyptian identity. Such acts reflect personal views, not facts, and compromise the neutrality and accuracy of the article. There are further such examples, some oblique but not the less identifiable, which I could cite in articles related to Egypt.
Secondly, the issue regarding the appropriate name for the Revolution of July 23 1952. I have commented on this issue substantially in the Talk section of the 1952 Revolution page, which I have flagged regarding neutrality - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:1952_Revolution.
My sole concern is that accurate and fully informative information be placed on these pages. I hope that we will be able to probably analyze the issues raised above in a manner that is impartial and reflects commonly used terms rather than those that betray an ingrained personal prejudice.
Thank you.
Louse 09:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted to the proper chronological order of the languages and to the older description of the Sinai. There is a previous consensus on the Sinai part for neutrality's sake. I've also written a discussion of the identity question to accommodate alternative views on Egypt's Arab orientation. Also, I suggest you attempt to disabuse yourself a little bit of conspiracy theories. — Zerida 08:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Egypt articles 

message: In the beginning sentences it says that Egypt is the 'fifteenth most populous' country, while in the box table it is list as eleventh. Just wondering whether this information could be wrong, thanks Aeryck89 10:00, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: List of countries by population on Wikipedia shows it is the 15th most populous country. That article shows Egypt's population based on its population clock, whereas this article shows what appears to be a 2007 estimate without a source. Even if the estimate on this page was true, that would still only place it 14th on the world population table. Therefore I think it's safe to say it is the 15th most populous country in the world, unless someone can source the 2007 population estimate on the Egypt page. LeviathanMist 17:39, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If Egypt is the world's 13th largest and one behind Mauritania, then the Mauritania article must be wrong because IT says Mauritania is the 29th largest, which would make Egypt the 30th largest.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.190.209.236 (talk • contribs).
Ok, this is stupid. I almost just lost my faith in Wikipedia. If the 2007 estimate is unsourced, then it should be removed because it severely conflicts with the list of countries by population. Egypt is either 11th or 16th in population in the world; there's a large difference and it can only be one.
7FlushSetzer 01:11, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population of Egypt 

message: There is currently no country called "Palestine", and th ewikilink in th article is to a generic 'geographical area. The artile shoudl say it borders the Gaza Strip, which is under the administration of the PA. Isarig 23:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Borders

message: Here is a link to The Official Site of the Egyptian Tourist Authority.
http://www.egypt.travel/
NBbeauty 05:02, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tourism link 

message: I object to this passage, where is the tangible evidence supporting it?
"The form of Islam the Arabs brought to Egypt was Sunni, though early in this period Egyptians began to blend their new faith with indigenous beliefs and practices that had survived through Coptic Christianity, giving rise to various Sufi orders that have flourished to this day"
Whether or not Okasha deems it to be correct or not is irrelevant, the fact is, Sufi Islam has not changed since its adoption in Egypt. In order to avoid any further confusion, kindly do not confuse traditions with religion.
I'm also extremely sceptical of this passage:
"Religious freedom in Egypt is hampered to varying degrees by extremist Islamist groups and by discriminatory and restrictive government policies. Being the largest religious minority in Egypt, Coptic Christians are the most negatively affected community. Copts have faced increasing marginalization after the 1952 coup d'état led by Gamal Abdel Nasser. Until recently, Christians were required to obtain presidential approval for even minor repairs in churches. Although the law was eased in 2005 by handing down the authority of approval to the governors, Copts continue to face many obstacles in building new or repairing existing churches. These obstacles are not found in building mosques"
I invite you to tour Egypt and note the number of new churches being erected around the country and reconsider the inclusion of that passage. In addition, if you are going to list Coptic Christians as having their religious freedom hampered, I suggest you also include Sunni Muslims, since the phenomenon of observant, bearded young men being detained by the government for months or even years and subjected to torture is a well known fact in Egypt. Also, the government installs informants in all mosques in order to monitor Friday sermons and those preachers deemed to be preaching sermons not in accordance with the government's wishes have also been known to be detained and tortured (Sheikh Abdelhamid Kishk was one of the most high profile examples).
Thanks
Jem83 23:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like some people will never learn and will never change. Yeah, unfortunately, I wholeheartedly agree with that. — Zerida 22:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Religion

message: The person who re-edited the religion section has exhibited intellecutal dishonesty by keeping my Ahram link to the Wafaa Constantine case, while deleting the note that Copts converting to Islam in fact face enormous obstacles. Furthermore, s/he provided a link from a Christian website, and not a reputable news source whether a print one (NY Times, Economist, Etc.) or a news agency (AP, AFP, Reuters) which indicates a high probability of bias. Furthermore, if that person chooses to re-press again with that statement, I'd make sure that the Wafaa Constantine case is included as a  counter-example: if you insist on including this paragraph, I'll be adamant on including the aforementioned info for the sake of balance and the main article of Egypt will be laden with unnecessary details.
Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Citadelite (talk • contribs) 07:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid if you continue this battle, you will end up damaging Egypt's human rights and religious tolerance reputation. Regarding the case of Wafaa Constantine, the woman eventually declared "I was born a Christian and will die a Christian". Thus, she was not forced to convert to Islam to start with, and she eventually decided to vonvert back to Christianity. Simple case of religious freedom. This however was a couple of years ago. Last week, 45 Christians who had converted to Islam and wanted to return to Christianity were denied ID cards following a court verdict. I am sure you've heard about that! Numerous examples exist of Chrsitians or Jews converting to Islam in peace (only to cite a few: Omar El Sherif and Nadia Murad). However, any Muslim converting to Christianity will face what Sharia calls "Had Al Redda" (basically, Islamic-style execution for leaving Islam). The examples are numerous and the freedom of religion is a one-way road in Egypt today. You are free to convert to Islam. But you are not free to leave Islam. If you are in doubt of any of the information I've included, ask, and I'll be glad to provide you with the appropriate links (although I doubt you are Egyptian and haven't heard about all these incidents). Thanks. --Lanternix 14:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I do not issue threats. You just seemed too concerned about polishing Egypt's image in the media. I was only opening your eyes to the fact that capitalizing on this matter will only do the exact opposite of what you'd like to see. The BB Ghali comment is useless to begin with and has nothing to do with the Coptic human rights matter. But if you'd like to talk about it, how would you or anyone explain the fact that he, the only Copt to be responsible for the Egyptian MFA, was also the only acting foreign minister, with all other foreign ministers being effective and non-acting? Isn't that a proof of discrimination? And how about other offices? Why don't you see Copts in influencial positions? And how about having 1 Coptic governor out of 25? Do Copts represent 24% of the population? You put forward a number of 10%, which is a disputed number to begin with (Zakareya Azmi, Mubarak's chief of staff, put forward a number of 12% last year, and the Coptic Church put forward figures ranging from 14% to 20% of the population!) This means we should see between 3 and 5 Coptic governors. There is one. Thus the word only is justified in this case. Similarly, with 32 ministers (See this), we should be seeing between 4 and 6 Coptic ministers. Since there are two, the word only is again justifiable. What you claim is "one of the most important govermnet portfolios in any cabinet" means nothing (I don't even understand how this realates to the link you put, which talks about Mubarak and his family!) There are many other more important portfolios (culture, education, foreign affairs, defense, interior, justice, etc). Regards. --Lanternix 16:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Haha, you're so funny! Seriously! Instead of finding a good-enough argument to counter my objections, you reverted to a pathetic comment such as "You have been blocked before as your record shows" :)))) Kind of shows you've got nothing better to say. "It's recognized that the posts of Interior, Foreign Affairs, Defense, and Finance are the most important cabinet posts." Recognized by whom exactly? By you? Who are you? What's your reference? In any case, I'll assume that you need some time to find answers to my questions, so I'll give you a couple of days to come up with something better than this, after which I'll be glad to engage in your so-called edit-war about these 2 words. As you may have noticed from your research about me, not only have I been blocked before, but I've also won all my Wikibattles! Salamat. --Lanternix 17:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Indeed, too much fanfare over a small word. There are ways to get around a perceived POV, e.g. by adding qualifying statements like "Experience has shown..." or "Copts feel the number is not proportional...", etc. It is important to remember however that simply blanking sourced content  is not justified and is interpreted as vandalism. I will give it a try. — Zerida 22:24, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, could not agree more with the recent changes. Just to capitalize on the vandalism point: please do blank sourced content . --Lanternix 03:59, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Religion section

message: The "Etymology" section of the article gives the origin of the name Misr largely in terms of the biblical (Hebrew) "Mitzráyim:, like this:
Miṣr, the Arabic and official name for modern Egypt (Egyptian Arabic: Maṣr), is of Semitic origin directly cognate with the Hebrew מִצְרַיִם (Mitzráyim), meaning "the two straits" (a reference to the dynastic separation of upper and lower Egypt), and possibly means "a country" or "a state".[5] Miṣr in Arabic also means "a country" or "a state" or "frontier-land".
The source for this is an on-line article in what appears to be a fundamentalist Christian website. Something more scholarly is needed, and no reference to ancient Hebrew is needed at all - just Arabic. I suggest someone with access to Weber should check the entry for m/s/r. (Incidentally, I strongly doubt that Misr in Arabic does mean a country, a state, or a frontier-land - I vaguely recall that Misr is derived from the Classical Arabic for "civilised", but can't be certain - but this seems quite plausible, in terms of 6th century nomadic Arabs looking at Egypt from the outside). PiCo 04:42, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We've had this discussion before. The text is not saying that the word *originated* from Hebrew, that is not what cognate means. Essentially all the historically attested Semitic languages have some form of this word, which means they are all cognate with one another and thus of Proto-Semitic origin. Perhaps it should be reworded for clarity. — Zerida 17:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology of Misr/Masr 

message: thumb|River Nile at Aswan 
I would like to replace the first picture of the river Nile with this one as it is at the same place but of much higher res can you help... Merlin-UK 19:11, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Both images are quite picturesque, I'd hate to have to part with either. There is no rule however that says we can't have two shots of the nile. — Zerida 03:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture

message: Egypt's name in Coptic is  (Bohairic Dialect) or  (Sahidic Dialect)
Although it is *currently* pronounced Kīmi, the truth is it was actually pronounced Kāmi in Bohairic and Kāma in Sahidic
the reason it is pronounced differently today is that the Coptic pronunciation reformed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_pronunciation_reform. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ebson (talk • contribs) 
:Actually, older texts transliterate the letter  in names and placenames as the high, front vowel /i/ (the rest usually but not always as /a/). We know for example that  is definitely Marīs and the proper name  is obviously Wissa, and neither was ever pronounced *marās and *wāssa in any stage or dialect of the language. For the name of the country, we have further evidence from the Classical Greek rendering of the Egyptian name: . Occasionally, words are alternately spelled with  and ; e.g. Sahidic for 'small' is spelled both as  and . Also, there always be dialectal differences in the pronunciation of the vowel, so in reality Bohairic [i] is often Sahidic [e] and [a]. Proponents of the "Old Bohairic" pronunciation make valid points, and I personally agree that it's closer to original Egyptian phonology. However, like the reformed pronunciation itself, it is too neatly pre-boxed and uniform to account for other, more subtle differences. — Zerida 03:30, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Egypt's name in Coptic 

message: for every one please refer to the formation and history of the Arab League.
HaythamAbulela 09:00, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you know that wikipedia is not a forum and did you read the banner on this page that says Please do not use this page as a discussion forum? Egyegy 15:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Did anyone read about the formation of the Arab League?

message: For so many decades Egyptologist and many other scientist alike constantly misinterpret Kemet (which is the proper name for the so called ancient Egypt) saying it means black land many have tried to argue of the possibly means.  
First off, hieroglyphs is not the proper name for such a writing.  That was a name given to them from some one of ignorancy.  Mdw Ntr (Medew Netcher) which means "God Speech," or Divine Speech."  Hieroglyphs, is a Greek appellation, which means "sacred writing" (Carruthers 1995,39).
Second, the language of their ancient civilization indicates that in naming their country Kmt (or Kemet), the ancient Egyptians were referring to themselves as a community or settlement rather than describing the soil-an interpretation obviously dismissed by Egyptologists. --Freedom Build 21:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Before telling inaccurate information, do you even speaking Egyptian? Do you even know the difference between Kimi/Kemet and Metremenkimi? --Lanternix 05:24, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  There is no proof that Kemet means Black soil 

message: In the introduction, it says: "Abbout half of Egypt's"... instead of "About half..."
Someone fix?
85.220.61.67 (talk) 16:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Got it. El_C 17:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling error 

message: The reference to The Washington Institute for Near East Policy ("Christians make up 10-20 percent of Egypt's population of eighty million, though precise estimates of the number of Copts vary widely.about 90% of egypts religion are sunni muslims. islamic theology is rooted deeply in the minds, hearts, and behavior of the people. islamic scripture the qur'an (koran) is considered the final, complete word of "Allah" (god)  By any account, they represent by far the largest Christian community in the Middle East.") is fine and enough for rubbing the "citation needed" template out, so it should be kept.
But the reference to The New York Times ("...assailants in Dairut, a fundamentalist stronghold 200 miles south of Cairo, shot and killed an elderly Coptic farm manager and wounded a Coptic pharmacist. On Sunday night, a Coptic church was burned in Dairut, where Copts make up 20 percent of the population") restricts literally to the town of Dairut so it should not be extended to the whole of Egypt.
Kind regards, Zack Holly Venturi (talk) 11:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Religion

message: It's interesting to see the religions in Egypt. Encyclopaedia Judaica (1971) is giving a Jewish picture of it which can be seen here: 
Jews in Egypt
There were tolerant times, but the "Christian" crusaders disturbed all tolerance and also Christians and others could not be sure any more since 1250. There were lots of Jews in 19th century in Egypt under British rule, but since 1948 the Jews were persecuted and were emigrating, about 43% to Israel, the other part to other continents of the world. It seems not even 50% of the Jews in Egypt had been Zionist, this is really interesting.
Michael Palomino, 3 Jan. 2008
80.218.114.171 (talk) 18:47, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: History: Jews in Egypt

message: Under the section Economy, the numbers in this sentences are completely wrong. A modification is necessary.
"Egypt has huge reserves of gas, estimated at over 1,100,000 cubic meters (39,000,000 cu ft) in the 1990s, and LNG is exported to many countries."
How can 1,100,000 cubic meters be called huge? it's only %1 of the daily gas import by Turkey.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sinajoon (talk • contribs) 17:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correction of a number in economics section is needed