Talk:Shōjo

message: I thought single article dab (like this one) were not allowed on wikipedia... was there a change in policy? If so... alot of pages should exist on Wikipedia, to dab to other meanings that do not have articles. 70.51.9.81 (talk) 04:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's going to be expanding. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  What's a dab? Timothy Perper (talk) 05:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Disambiguation page, only shorter and therefore quicker to type. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:39, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Single article dab 

message: I think it should be included in the article now that I see the translation. Let me suggest changing the circles and triangles to + for a circle (appropriate), +/- (or the unified symbol which I can't access with this browser) for a triangle (less appropriate), and - for inappropriate. Then Matt and Nihonjoe can concoct some E-->J and J-->E sentences showing usage and include them to illustrate the definitions. Or, with a bit more work, we can find some examples from manga.
Something tells me that these terms are being defined in the table in formal or semi-formal linguistic registers, a fancy way of saying polite discourse among adults, e.g., the words you'd use if you were talking to people in business whom you don't know too well. Is there some way of adding slang or colloquial language as well? I do not mean vulgarities, but slang.
For example, at a climactic moment in Masakazu Katsura's manga Shadow Lady, Bright Honda has a conversation with Shadow Lady -- he's in love with her, but she doesn't and never will like him one tiny bit -- and he says "Onna to shite." She looks distinctly annoyed and stalks off. Clearly, he is speaking in some kind of slang or informal register, even though the translation says "I love you as a woman," which seems to me to be much too formal for this occasion.
(1) What does "onna to shite" mean in plain, not formal, English? 
(2) Why does he use the word "onna" here?
(3) When I said that "onna to shite" doesn't sound like formal language, that's an inference from the setting and knowing something about how people talk in such situations. The translation certainly is far more formal (and doesn't ring true in American English, at least to my ear).
We can all come up with other examples to illustrate these usages.
Here's a reference for defining "girl" in English that explains something of its complex meanings. Francoeur, R.T., Martha Cornog, Timothy Perper, and Norman A. Scherzer 1995 The Complete Dictionary of Sexology, New Expanded Edition. New York: Continuum.
Timothy Perper (talk) 07:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Table 

message: Should these various definitions include references to specific dictionaries or encyclopedias? If so, I can provide them pretty easily. Matt Thorn (talk) 02:21, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Usually, the articles to which the page links have the references. Disambiguation pages do not generally have citations or references. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:32, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! Matt Thorn (talk) 08:36, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But in this case it isn't that simple. The reason that disambiguation pages usually don't cite references is that the articles the definitions link to are expected to contain them. However, in this case some definitions don't link to an article, so it's really this article that makes the factual claims, and therefore they should be cited properly. Shinobu (talk) 22:13, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem. I'll add references for definitions that do not link to articles. Matt Thorn (talk) 01:06, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. I took the liberty of removing the "unreferenced" tag. Matt Thorn (talk) 01:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Newbie question: citations?

message: I wonder -- heh-heh -- if we can get away with adding another picture to this little article. I really liked the cheerful, slightly tipsy red-haired sea sprite who Malkinann found! Could we add a 1920s-1940s (that is, classic) image of a modern shoujo for the top? Or is that too much? Timothy Perper (talk) 00:36, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, from the Wikimedia Commons there's , and then there's commons:Category:Takarazuka Revue. -Malkinann (talk) 00:52, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I like the Shirokiya Shojo Ongakutai more -- Takarazuka is not what I think of as typical of  Japanese shoujo. Matt, what's your take on it? Timothy Perper (talk) 04:59, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There's also commons:Category:Women of Japan and the daughter categories, but the images are too modern, perhaps.  I'd suggest browsing this category with caution - some of the images are NSFW. -Malkinann (talk) 05:40, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another picture? 

message: Just a suggestion, I think perhaps we should open a section to document more about Shōjo's usage in pop culture, romantic connation, social phenomenon that jp society put great focus on idea of youth...etc --Da Vynci (talk) 00:55, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Kind of like what's in Class S (genre)?  We had a brief discussion in Talk:Shōjo_manga/Archive_2#Notes_on_Dollase about "shoujo culture" a while ago that might also prove relevantish.   -Malkinann (talk) 01:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: emm, another suggestion would be start translating what is in http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/少女, such as how the term could be used as a derogation and as compliment. How the word's definition become loose when used in pop culture, such as they use the word for 少年隊,少女隊 dispite the members are actually adults. Also, probably this: 近代では1920〜30年代の近代市場社会、都市型小家族の完成期に浮遊性・脱秩序性・非生産性等の様々な「印」を持つ少女文化が開花した。--Da Vynci (talk) 08:31, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The big problem is that that article, like so many Japanese Wikipedia articles, has no citations whatsoever (although that one at least includes a bibliography). The line you quoted sounds extremely interpretive/subjective, and therefore couldn't be used without a proper citation. The Japanese Wikipedia REALLY needs to get its act together. It is almost useless for anyone doing serious research, because of the lack of citations. The only thing it's good for is very casual research for the curious, or for college students looking for something to plagiarize for a report. BTW, the members of 少年隊 and 少女隊 actually were shōnen and shōjo when they began those groups. 少女隊 broke up ages ago, but 少年隊 is still hanging in there, doing dinner shows(!?). They should probably change their name to 小父隊 (Ojitai), or maybe even 爺隊 (Jijiitai). (^_^) Matt Thorn (talk) 13:52, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  lol, 少年隊 should be renamed to 小父隊/爺隊, ROFL. Anyway, fair enough, I was hoping that anyone who has access to the one of the books in that bibliography can provide in-text citition, but if that isn't the case, let's wait until some reference turn up. --Da Vynci (talk) 14:09, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shōjo in pop culture and media 

message: The disambiguation page has been recreated here: Shōjo (disambiguation). I removed the section on the other words like this one and put that information (severely edited) into the dab page. I also reorganized the "See also" section in this page. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 03:17, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, Nihonjoe! Timothy Perper (talk) 10:53, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambig page

message: Someone put a "Translation from Japanese Wikipedia article in progress" notice at the top of the article. As I stated above, the Japanese Wikipedia article is completely useless, because it is entirely unreferenced. I know it seems like the logical thing to do, since you would assume that the Japanese article is more authoritative, but please take my word: the article is a complete mess. It is all "original research" (meaning some arrogant amateur talking out of his a*s), or, worse yet, uncited, plagiarized work. At ths point, the English language article is much more reliable as a source for people doing serious research. Matt Thorn (talk) 14:03, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The last thing we need in this article is more unreferenced stuff. Don't use the Japanese Wiki if it has no references. The purpose isn't to fill space with opinions and original research, but to add verifiable information that is genuinely useful to a reader. Timothy Perper (talk) 16:06, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please, do NOT try to translate the Japanese Wikipedia article! 

message: We have: 
*Shojo (disambiguation)
*Shōjo (disambiguation)
Logically speaking as Shojo is the what most people would commonly type when searching for all three: Shōjo, Shojo処女 and Shōjō猩猩, should we use Shojo (disambiguation) on the top of the page instead of *Shōjo (disambiguation)? --Da Vynci (talk) 03:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I redirected the second to Shojo (disambiguation), so we only have one. I just hadn't gotten to that when you posted. So, all fixed now. (^_^) ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 08:55, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Nihonjoe! Matt Thorn (talk) 15:15, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation 

message: I just noticed these lists. Are they necessary? The magazine list includes one English-language mag, one Japanese mag, and one Japanese mag that went under more than a decade ago. (BTW, I just realized that Shōjo Comic is the sole remaining Japanese magazine with the word "shōjo" in the title. Weird.) But if we are going to include the long-since defunct Shōjo Friend, the you have to ask why include that one but not the dozens of other defunct magazines that have come and gone since 1902. I could probably list twenty off the top of my head. The question is, though, what would be the point? I can understand including Shōjo Beat and Shōjo Comic as contemporary examples of the use of the word, two does not make a list. As for other works, again, the number of manga, novels, anime, etc. that include the word shōjo in their titles is potentially endless. We could never hope to make a comprehensive list, and, again, what would be the point? I think these sorts of list get started because someone thinks, "Hey, I know an example!" and then it snowballs from there, until someone steps in and asks (as I am now) "What's the point?" If I don't get a response in, say, 48 hours, I'm going to "be bold" and remove these sections. Matt Thorn (talk) 00:28, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be fine to list other magazines, even those without articles. I think those may be the only ones with articles, so that may be why they are the only ones currently listed. I think the list is useful as it is not going to be very long and it provides an idea of how many magazines there have been. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Magazines/Other works lists? 

message: Is the picture necessary? It also happens to be a really bad picture. kaixokkiten  21:21, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture

message: Thee article at this title was recently redirected to Shōjo manga after an AfD (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shōjo). That specific version of the article went against WP:NOT#DICT, as it was focused on the etymology of the word itself, but I think the title can hold an article on shōjo bunka/girls' culture, which an important cultural topic (the ideal of the pre-marital, adolescent girl) covered extensively by many authors, who trace it from Meiji literature and the influence of Romanticism to shōjo manga and beyond. There are sources across a wide array of fields (sociology, literary criticism, feminist perspectives; often focusing on shōjo manga as its distillation in the 1970s). Here is just a few that I found:
* "Yoshimoto Banana Writes Home: Shojo Culture and the Nostalgic Subject" (1993) by John Whittier Treat, Journal of Japanese Studies, 19(2)
* Passionate Friendship: The Aesthetics of Girl's Culture in Japan (2012) by Deborah M. Shamoon, University of Hawai‘i Press
* Girl Reading Girl in Japan (2012), edited by Tomoko Aoyama and Barbara Hartley, Routledge
* "Magic, Shōjo, and Metamorphosis: Magical Girl Anime and the Challenges of Changing Gender Identities in Japanese Society" (2014) by Kumiko Saito, The Journal of Asian Studies, 73(1) 
* International Perspectives on Shojo and Shojo Manga: The Influence of Girl Culture (2018), edited by Masami Toku, Routledge
* Age of Shojo: The Emergence, Evolution, and Power of Japanese Girls (2019) by Hiromi Tsuchiya Dollase, SUNY Press
Just leaving this note for future editors. — Goszei (talk)  01:10, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources for an article here