Talk:Legislation on Chinese Indonesians

message: It is not correct to say most or almost all of these laws have been removed. Some are still enforced.  
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 155.56.68.221 (talk • contribs).
:which ones? please contribute --Merbabu 12:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Repeal of these laws 

message: While i agree the quality of this article is poor, and maybe incorrectly makes assertions about the current situation, I believe that the information is useful from a historical perspective and the problems in the artilce can be fixed. It is an important part of recent Indonesian history - even if it is currently a bit POV in its current form. Deletion would only be POV in the other direction. --Merbabu 12:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Deletion disagreed. These are facts and do not constitute any biased statements.  70.243.237.170 11:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Deletion disagreed. Renaming article proposed. This list was a spin-off from Chinese Indonesian article. Another option would be to put stub tag to encourage more users fix up the article. Lack of details shall never be the grounds for Wikipedia deletion policy. 70.243.237.170 17:16, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Speedy deletion proposal

message: There are exceptions on such laws and regulations banning the use of mandarin language, for example, the use of mandarin language in traditional chinese medicine prescriptions are not prohibited, since the legal proceedings related to this case has been suspended after a lobby made to the the Attorney General (Jaksa Agung) of Indonesia by INI ( Ikatan Naturopatis Indonesia )Blunardi 14:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Anomalies and Exceptions

message: 1. How many percent Indonesian Chinese students are allowed to enroll in Indonesia State University ? 5% ? Naah, Less than 3%. 
2. How long it has been going like that ? Since the beginning and up to now. 
3. How many Indonesian Chinese Politician Indonesia Goverment has, beside Kweek Kian Gie ? None 
This is just a Few Facts. Evidences are everywhere and quite overwhelming as the matter of fact. I hope the title of "a few" will not be mis-interpreted as "nothing happened" for future reference.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ip2665 (talk • contribs).
:Well, please contribute if you can verify with references. No-one is pretending that this article doesn't need work. Merbabu 12:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll answer your questions.
# Most of them are not even interested in enrolling to state university, focusing more on private owned universities (usually Christian Universities)instead where their own ethnicity is the majority, so they can keep to themselves rather than mingling with the natives in state-owned universities.
# Since the beginning of time since Chinese ethnicities were given special status above native Indonesians by the colonial Dutch, made them think themselves as an exclusive society, more refined thatn the natives. Later, the discriminatory legislations by the government made it worse, making them leaning more to decide to flock within their own community.
# Most of them are not interested in Indonesia's politics to start with. This partly due to discrimination from the former governments. But there are a lot of prominent figures such as:
   * Arief Budiman (Soe Hok Djin), scholar in political studies.
    * Alvin Lie, member of Parliament from PAN.
    * Harry Tjan Silalahi, former student activist in 1960s, former member of the Supreme Advisory Council, former member of the Parliament, intellectual focusing on politics and policy studies, Co-Founder of CSIS.
    * Jusuf Wanandi, former student activist in 1960s, former representative in the People’s Consultative Assembly, intellectual focusing on policy and strategic studies, Co-Founder of CSIS.
    * Kwik Kian Gie, PDIP politician, former minister in the administrations of Abdurrahman Wahid and Megawati Sukarnoputri.
    * Mari Pangestu, Minister of Trade in the era of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono (2004 - present)
    * Oei Tjoe Tat, Old Order politician and once President Sukarno's advisor
    * Soe Hok Gie, political analyst and activist in 1960s
    * Yap Tjwan Bing, member of the Committee for the Preparation of Indonesia’s Independence (PPKI)
I believe that the problem with Chinese Indonesians-Native Indonesians problem lies within both of the parties. If the Native Indonesians can accept that the Chinese Indonesians as a part of Indonesia and not some foreigners, and Chinese Indonesians can see the Natives as equals and not some semi-human beings, they would get along fine :) Matahari Pagi 04:10, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: As I said, there is no reason why you can't do this as long as the references are reliable sources. People can request information of other editors, but ultimately, it can only be up to the individual editors what articles they chose to work on. Merbabu 01:44, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Ip2665, who is "someone" that you keep mentioning. Why not improve the article yourself instead of berating others for not doing it. That is how wikipedia works! If you want something improved, start the improvements yourself. You don't need permission. he he Merbabu 11:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Presenting A Few Bitter Facts

message: Hello, I wrote (not me exactly, I took it as a third person perspective [reader] of course) this article in Bahasa Indonesia. Could you please change the title, for one thing the title is not correct and not neutral. This law is an anti monopoly law of a sort (PP 10), and the Chinese is not spesifically reffered to in this law, it is so happened they are the biggest affected by it. Please also note that when this law is made, Indonesia is recently just became an independent country, the Chinese in Indonesia (although they live, say forever, in Indonesia) were asked to choose whether they wanted to be an Indonesian citizen or they want to keep their Chinese citizenship (at that time they were allowed to have dual citizenship).
:: This rule apply to every dual nation individual in Indonesia, not just the Chinese. Australian-Indonesia, American-Indonesian, Arab-Indonesian : all have to choose and this rule still apply until now (recently when the individual turn 17). 
Later on I find another paper in Sumatera that refer to this law (PP 10) that the riot breaks because the vendor (mostly Chinese) refuse to follow the rules and worse, they kept basic food materials hidden so the price would rise up. People were upset, and though the event was triggered by some, angry people doesn't choose.
So please change the title, I don't think the article should be deleted, just change the title. Serenity id (talk) 03:55, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The question is to what SatuSuro 04:01, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Legislation relating to ethnic Chinese in Indonesia? --Merbabu (talk) 04:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not agree with the current move (it does not make sense to a native english speaker for a start) or the suggested titles - cumbersome and lack any adequate understanding of Indonesian history from a long term perspecitve (there have been difficulties between ethnic groups in Indonesia for hundred and in some cases thousands of years) this needs more discussion than just a move - it is one of about 10 or so very problematic articles in the Indonesian project that need discussing at the roject noticeboard- and not here SatuSuro 04:11, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

text:  Wow, I just realize that re-neutralization is a big job in here, Phiuh on the language *LoL*, whoever wrote it is not neutral. I can fix it but it is a "10 hour straight job" of editing and moving references from Indonesian language article. In there they were numbers and references for every line. So much better, not like here, a lot of the lines were opinionated. Serenity id (talk) 04:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

text:  I have edit until background and stop since the statement need reference. My reference however will be valid, it cited from a nationan wide circulation or a top regional circulation, so don't worry about the validity. So don't you worry about references. I am at my office right now and consider "a 10 hour straight editing job" is unfair, so I will wait until I got back home and edit it mercylessly until it has a neutral sound. Until after my edit, you are free to state your objection. I'll finish it don't worry, kept my word, but after this article I'm gone. Laterz. Serenity id (talk) 04:55, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

text:  I'm not gonna rush, I'll ask for two weeks "do not edit major changes in progress" tag on the article. Serenity id (talk)  —Preceding undated comment was added at 14:17, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Please change the title

message: Sorry don't have time to do research, I'm removing tag for edit in second section. Serenity id (talk) 02:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of tag

message: ===Background===
Background is inaccurate, it should stay as: 
: Indonesian law concerning Chinese-Indonesian are laws, directives, or constitutions enacted by the government of Indonesia that affected the lives of Chinese Indonesians or Chinese national living in Indonesia since the nation's independence.  
: The laws are considered discriminatory by some, and taken as laws made against Chinese Indonesian. This article is a list and background review behind controversial laws and directive officially issued by the Government of Republic of Indonesia.  
Compare to this one (now):
: One of the points of contention is the selection of a proper term to describe Indonesian residents of Chinese descent. Accompanying explanatory text to Article 26 of the 1945 Constitution used the term Tionghoa to describe this group. Penjelasan Undang-Undang Dasar Republik Indonesia 1945. In 1948, the Communist Party of Indonesia began using Tionghoa in its terminology, prompting the beginning of an unofficial ban on its use.
It talks about the terminologies, it has no relation to the article. It can be one law discussed, fine, and we add terminology as one of it, but it shouldn't rule as the background when the article was stating law about merchant (economy) and citizenship. Serenity id (talk) 06:19, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Inaccurate

message: Background is inaccurate, it should stay as: 
: Indonesian law concerning Chinese-Indonesian are laws, directives, or constitutions enacted by the government of Indonesia that affected the lives of Chinese Indonesians or Chinese national living in Indonesia since the nation's independence.  
: The laws are considered discriminatory by some, and taken as laws made against Chinese Indonesian. This article is a list and background review behind controversial laws and directive officially issued by the Government of Republic of Indonesia.  
Compare to this one (now):
: One of the points of contention is the selection of a proper term to describe Indonesian residents of Chinese descent. Accompanying explanatory text to Article 26 of the 1945 Constitution used the term Tionghoa to describe this group. Penjelasan Undang-Undang Dasar Republik Indonesia 1945. In 1948, the Communist Party of Indonesia began using Tionghoa in its terminology, prompting the beginning of an unofficial ban on its use.
It talks about the terminologies, it has no relation to the article. It can be one law discussed, fine, and we add terminology as one of it, but it shouldn't rule as the background when the article was stating law about merchant (economy) and citizenship. Serenity id (talk) 06:19, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Background

message: Some genius change the interwiki link to id to none existing page, I'm changing it too. Serenity id (talk) 06:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Interwikilink

message: :The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the move request was: Already moved to a different title, which seems grammatically fine. Ucucha 14:47, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Regulation of Chinese Indonesians → Indonesian laws concerning Chinese-Indonesians — Page was recently removed without discussion, yet alone consensus, to a grammatically incorrect and confusing title. — Davidelit (Talk)  17:21, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Yes. Should be moved back. Then if anyone feels the title is inappropriate they can explain. --Merbabu (talk) 21:11, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not a discussion about the merits of your title,and it is not an exercise in seeking “oppose” or “agree” to move it back. Rather it’s a request that due process be respected and that anyone moving a page gets a clear consensus on the talk page first. --Merbabu (talk) 23:36, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it is a dicussion. Wikipedia:Requested moves "may be seen as a place to advertise move debates that would benefit from wider community input". Arsonal (talk) 23:49, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Hi, Merbabu, I think the title is incorrect. The law never mentioned specific ethnic, never, but it affected specific ethnic <-- fact. So it is not Legislation made for Chinese Indonesian re: Legislation on Chinese Indonesians. Serenity id (talk) 16:44, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 

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