Talk:Cougar/Archive 1

message: What is there to be discussed?
:Subspecies: genetic research indicates that there are actually only 6 subspecies of Puma concolor.  The current classification strikes me as old fashioned science that sees separate populations and calls them seperate subspecies just because.  I've seen this with elk and many other species and because of environmental interests some people seem willing to defend the outdated subspecies.  Look people, we should not let our desires get in the way of science.  If Puma concolor cougar is genetically unimportant, we should not protect them on that basis.  We should change the law to recognize the importance of native species throughout their range rather than having the Endangered Species Act which sees one small population of a species (or subspecies) as a sufficient act of conservation.  The current system of subspecies in North America dates back to the 40s.  If no one objects to phylogenic evidence (http://www.coryi.org/Florida_panther/Miscellaneous_Panther_Material/Genomic%20ancestry%20of%20the%20American%20puma.pdf), I would like to replace the contents of the subspecies section with the following:
::Genetic evidence has shown that many of the subspecies previously recognized were genetically indistinguishable from one another (reference to above link).  This study indicates that the original North American subspecies of Puma concolor went extinct during the pleistocene extinctions some 10,000 years ago and that North America was then repopulated by South American Pumas, leading to the genetic similarity of modern North American cougars.  The subspecies determined by Dr. Culver are the following
::*North American Cougar (Puma concolor cougar): includes the previous subspecies coryi, shorgeri, cougar, azteca, improcera, missoulensis, hippolestes, oregonensis, vancouverensis, californica, kaibabensis, browni, stanleyana, and mayensis
::*Costa Rican Cougar (Puma concolor costaricensis)
::*Northern South American Cougar (Puma concolor concolor): includes the previous subspecies concolor, bangsi, soderstromi, incarum, and osgoodi
::*Southern South American Puma (Puma concolor puma): includes the previous subspecies patagonica, puma, pearsoni, and araucanus
::*Eastern South American Cougar (Puma concolor capricornensis): includes the previous subspecies discolor and acrocodia
::*Argentine Puma (Puma concolor cabrerae)
:The common names I made up, but the subspecies are from the paper.  I guess I'd have to make a new article for North American Cougar.  Thoughts?  I'd like to include the maps in figure 1 from the link above but I'm not sure how all the copyright stuff works on Wikipedia...
::I went ahead and changed it, but for some reason the eastern cougar link is dead.  Any idea why? Eco jake 13:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ?

message: The Felidae page suggests the Puma is in a separate genus, not part of the Felis genus. --  Loren
: Fixed :) -- Timwi 21:58 21 Jun 2003 (UTC)
No ,it isn't of the Felis genus. It's Puma Concolor.211.72.108.3 02:51, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Classification

message: The map and article texts describe different distributions - The text describes verified sigtings along Lake Superior, whereas the map shows the limit of the distribution as several hundred miles to the east.  I think the map is based on old information, although there is a lot of controversy over the presence of cougar in the eastern US.    Toiyabe 00:00, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have seen mountain lions with my own eyes in the mountains of North Carolina, and have also seen foot prints in the snow that could only be a mountain lion (too large to be a bobcat, yet with retracted claws so not a black bear).  Their range is almost certainly greater than that indicated by the map. 71.75.170.119 06:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Distribution 

message: Considering the amount of information available about this animal, I'm surprised at the content of this article.  Too much of the article focuses on human attacks and "popular culture" while there is nothing about mountain lions in native American culture.  Nor is there any information about the various names of the animal and what it's called in which regions (which is the reason I visited this page in the first plave).  I'd like to see information like this: http://www.floridaconservation.org/panther/handbook/natural/whatname.html.
Also, I'm surprised that there's no discussion or controversy regarding the use of the name "puma" instead of "cougar" or "mountain lion" as the page title.  There is seemingly no real consensus (the San Diego Zoo website says "mountain lion" (http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-puma.html) while the Western North Carolina Nature Center calls them "cougars" (http://wildwnc.org/af/cougar.html).  The only consensus I can see is that in North America the animal is *never* called the puma.  That name appears to be strictly European in its popularity.  I'd love to see a link to research that identifies this nomenclature as the English language norm.  Thanks, all.  69.231.194.152 21:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, not true that it's never called puma in north america! That was one of the first names--maybe THE first--that I learned for it as a kid just in talking to other kids and/or school and/or family. (Probably Colorado or New York.)  Elf | Talk 05:29, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: It's usually called a cougar, mountain lion, or panther here in Indiana where I live, but there are a sizable amount of people who call them 'pumas' here too. I've never heard it was just a European name, just that the other names were more popular in North America. - Indy Gold 20:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Surprisingly sloppy page

message: Some years ago, before I became acquainted with Wikipedia, I was on vacation in Maine and saw a story in the Portland paper about cougar tracks in the area.  Some were well preserved, and the local game warden said they were definitely cougar.  The state wildlife authorities said that there may be a remnant population of cougars in Maine's north woods, but the Portland area is too populous for a remnant population, and these tracks must have been made by a released captive animal.
National Public Radio had a story a few years ago about a population of cougars in Devonshire in England.  They were said to be black, and to have been verified as cougars by zoological experts.  They were formidable evening hunters, and helped themselves liberally to sheep, as the local sheepfolds were of course not designed to keep cougars out. There was no question that these animals must have been released from a private zoo.  A few years earlier the keeping of normally wild animals had been made considerably more expensive, and someone had irresponsibly turned his animals loose, and they had prospered in what remains of rural England. J S Ayer 02:18, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extraterritorial Occurences: Released Captives 

message: The article says "Instead, stand and face the animal, but do not make eye contact (experts suggest looking at the feet)."  Is that your feet or the cat's feet?  I've found two references that contradict this advice:  both http://www.adventuresmart.ca/cougarsafety.php and http://www.macecanada.com/tips/cougars.htm say "keep direct eye contact with the cougar".   Julesd 15:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting problem. Perhaps a good trade-off would be to face the cougar, but not look it in the eye? Between small cats at least, direct eye contact can communicate rank, similar to wolves. But you don't want to be facing away from the cougar, because if you're giving them the message "I can't see you," that's about the same as saying "Come and eat me." 71.217.114.221 17:53, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Puma Safety Tips 

message: I couldn't find that anywhere, which is a surprisingly basic peice of information not to have in an article. -Toptomcat 02:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How big is the damned thing? 

message: Typing and wording were terrible, this goes for the editing, too
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.39.251.35 (talk) 20:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Typing slurs 

message: One of the first tips is "Do not run."
Then further down the list it says "Run if possible."
It looks odd.
Also, it says "do not shoot it, they are protected" or something like that. This is supposed to be a safety tip list of what to do if confronted by a puma. If a puma is going to attack you, I'm sure it'd be okay to shoot it (or are you just supposed to allow yourself to be mauled?!?!) At the very least, this is debatable. We're not talking about hunting or chasing pumas, we're talking about defending oneself when confronted or ambushed by a puma. I think that "don't shoot it" part doesn't belong in a "safety tip" list in fact I think it looks ridiculous. Anyone else?
Yeah, I removed that section from the safety tips as it was just contradicting itself. 137.99.179.251 05:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: safety tips

message: I'm planning on moving this article to Cougar, and making the redirected Puma a genus level article. This is in accordance with what Mammal Species of the World, 3rd ed, (MSW3) lists as the common name, and also accomodates the fact that the Jaguarundi is in the Puma genus. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While I normally hate doing the US/UK English thing -- it creates such bad feelings -- cougar seems to have the right of the line in American and Canadian dictionaries, and it is a beast from the New World, so it should be cougar per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National varieties of English. -- SigPig |SEND - OVER 14:33, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: What is the difference between felis concolor and puma concolor?  As a followup to that: felis concolor redirects here but I can't find "felis concolor" on this page. Cburnett 03:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Felis concolor and Puma concolor are the same species. In older classifications, this species was in genus Felis, in modern classifications it is in genus Puma. I've added the synonym to the taxobox. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Felis concolor vs. puma concolor 

message: As Wikipedia is not a how-to, these don't belong. Can we compress this section into a single paragraph under "attacks on humans"? Marskell 13:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  I find the safety tips very out of place in an encyclopedia. Slow Graffiti 15:18, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I concur. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Marskell 09:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The safety tips 

message: This photo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cougar_Tracks_in_snow.JPG which is included in the "physical charactaristics" section is most certainly that of a canine of some sort. Cougars ALWAYS retract their claws when on the move. http://www.easterncougar.org/tracks.gif DHollerman 21:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like a canine to me too.  The metacarpal pad is too small compared to the toes, and there's the distict 'X' in front of the metacarpal pad, which is typical of canines, instead of the 'C' that is typical of cats.  It's probably a domestic dog, wild canines tend to have narrower prints.  Toiyabe 22:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hello. I am the person who took the photo of the tracks. To figure out what those tracks are let me describe the area first: It is on southwestern Vancouver Island, in an area that is devoid of houses or dwellings for 20 kilometers (12 miles) radius. The tracks came out of the forest, then proceeded many kilometers along the logging road uphill.  There were no other humans in the area, or human tracks for at least 5 days, as evident by the snow. These are the first large tracks I have ever seen in that area in the last 5 years. One valley further north (12km) is a large wolf population that is not known to frequent the area where I took that picture, nor have I ever heard any wolves howl in that area either. Is it normal for Wolves to be solitary? I am curious, and if those are indeed canine tracks then let's figure it out and I'll remove the image. If anyone wants to see the full set of those tracks go to http://freeminer.ca/03-01-2007/ and scroll down to the pictures section. Chaosdna 21:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canine Tracks 

message: Any suggestions on compressing this as well? We're not much talking about the cat; only where it's been sighted in the US. Marskell 18:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cougar populations of the United States and Canada 

message: As I've gone through this, the initial behavior section became increasingly redundant. Basically all of the hard data was shoved into this one section. I'm going to cut it for now and leave it here, to see if something can be used later. Marskell 20:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Behavior (cut) 

message: I have cut the following because I think it over-specific (we don't need to list every state in the union) and because I don't think it totally verifiable. 
"The cougar is gradually extending its range to the east, following creeks and riverbeds, and has reached Missouri, Michigan and Kansas. In Texas, the cougar is generally confined to the western ⅔ of the state. However, there have been Cougar sightings in 218 of the 254 Texas counties, with confirmed mortalities in 67 counties since 1983, an indication that it is expanding statewide to its historical range. There are continuing reports of the survival of a remnant population of the eastern cougar in Maine, New Brunswick, Ontario and the Gaspé Peninsula of Quebec.
In the eastern United States, rumors and myths of the cougar never died, but this cat is slowly making its way from myth to reality, especially along the Appalachian Mountains from Virginia to Georgia. In this region cougar sightings are steadily increasing, and a government bounty is offered in many places for confirmed sightings. One very compelling piece of evidence surfaced in June 1997, when a Kentucky man hit and killed a cougar kitten with his truck. DNA analysis proved that the animal was descended in part from wild North American cougars, and it showed no evidence of having been someone's escaped pet."
Marskell 20:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further cut 

message: *:Image:Lübeck Cougars Team-2006.jpg (example of a football team)
*Prince George Cougars (a junior ice hockey team)
*Mercury Cougar (example of a car)
*Eurocopter Cougar (example of a helicopter)
*Cougar Mountain (example of a place)
*:Image:Cougar Divide 7029.JPG (another place)
*Mega Duck/Cougar Boy (a rather trivial example)
*McKenzie River (includes Cougar Reservoir and Cougar Dam)
Would adding at least the bolded ones risk the section expanding too much? :-) At the very least, Cougar Mountain seems to be directly relevant. Maybe add to the 'see also' section some geographical places named "cougar" because there are cougars there? Carcharoth 14:37, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh dear! Carcharoth 01:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added Cougar Mountain to the see also. With the habitat corridor, it's directly relevant. I'm indifferent on the rest though. Marskell 03:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More culture references 

message: *I followed the link at "Ma", which was piped to Mega-annum, which is a redirect to Annum. I've now fixed the redirect to jump directly to the relevant section of Annum, but maybe mya (unit) is a better page anyway? What do others think?
*I linked to Pleistocene extinctions, but am now uncertain if the original sentence was referring to that, or to New World Pleistocene extinctions? Also, Holocene extinction event has some material on this as well.
I'll add more queries if I find any. Carcharoth 23:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't actually add that. Mya is indeed better; it has been changed. Marskell 03:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Less cultural references 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Greater than a Kodiak or a polar bear?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.254.4.11 (talk) 06:32, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, "great" as in distribution, not size. Editor abcdef (talk) 06:36, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greatest of any large wild terrestrial mammal in the Western Hemisphere? 

message: In the upper South of the United States, including the Ozarks, it has long been, and is still, called a "painter." Just for example, here's a children's nature guide title: https://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Lion-Panther-Painter-Cougar/dp/1879373009 67.60.187.45 (talk) 19:04, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes; this is already in the article, in the section on "naming and etymology". Anaxial (talk) 22:54, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  additional name 

message: The statement in the introduction that cougar attacks have been increasing in recent years is more than 10 years outdated (referencing a 2003 paper). According to this page , only 3 fatal attacks have occurred since 2000. While the statement is not inaccurate in citing the increased contact between humans and cougars as a factor, this statement is still misleading. Attacks are still tremendously rare, and there is little evidence to suggest that they have continued to increase since this trend emerged.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeyyacapulco (talk • contribs) 06:05, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Attacks Increasing? 

message: In section “Biology and behavior”#“Hunting and diet”, it said, “In Pacific Rim National Park Reserve, raccoons made up 28% of the cougar's diet, harbor seals and blacktail deer 24%, North American river otters 10%, California sea lion 7%, and American mink 4%, while the rest 3% are unknown.” I rewrote it as: “In Pacific Rim National Park Reserve, raccoons made up 28% of the cougar's diet, harbor seals and blacktail deer 24% each, North American river otters 10%, California sea lion 7%, and American mink 4%, while the rest 3% are unknown.” (Added the word each to make it grammatically clear.) I added the percentages; they add up to 100% if you read it as “harbor seals and blacktail deer 24% each” (together accounting for 48%). Okay?Solomonfromfinland (talk) 18:53, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Adding “each” was definitely an improvement. I’ve added mention of scat sampling to indicate where the 3% came from, and tweaked the phrasing of the last bit.—Odysseus1479 20:04, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Reference number 44, "Nowell, K.; Jackson, P (2006).", has wrong date. It was published in 1996. 213.113.218.18 (talk) 21:14, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Gulumeemee (talk) 02:11, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 13 June 2017 

message: This sentence is not supported by the cited source:   "Some instances of surplus killing have resulted in the deaths of 20 sheep in one attack.[138]" 73.30.63.46 (talk) 17:42, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: To quote the citation: "Lions have killed as many as twenty sheep at one time." This statement alone is enough to keep the sentence. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 17:48, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  The full quote, "The mountain lion ... will kill for the sake of killing. A lion may kill many more animals in an attack than it can possibly consume. Lions have killed as many as twenty sheep at one time", supports the surplus killing claim as well.   Jts1882 | talk  07:27, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 24 July 2017 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: That is how you can group adjacent photographs together. As for the lead photograph, I shifted the image of the captive cougar elsewhere, and one of a wild North American cougar, because that is how it often is with articles of big cats. Leo1pard (talk) 16:56, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: Karlkvngh (talk) 23:18, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Although you're right that panthers in the scientific sense are jaguars or leopards showing melanism, nevertheless in parts of the United States cougars are colloquially called "panthers".  That's what the local folks actually do call them.  The article is therefore correct.Ttocserp 13:00, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Spintendo      19:14, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: This isn't an issue of providing sources as the claim in the request is simply not correct as already pointed by Ttocserp above  (see for instance )--Kmhkmh (talk) 05:23, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2018 

message: Change statement that cougars are solitary animals to statement that they show "adaptive social strategies" as shown by Oct. 2017 research (http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/10/e1701218) Withoutdoing213 (talk) 02:34, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.  Spintendo  19:11, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 23 October 2018 

message: The scientific name for a cougar is Felis concolor, not Puma concolor! 163.41.15.177 (talk) 22:27, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all the information about Felis concolor is already in the article (see at end of the infobox). Secondly Puma concolor is the correct and current name (see , ).--Kmhkmh (talk) 03:51, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 30 January 2019