Talk:Egyptian Arabic/Archive 1

message: I am a teacher in the past I'VE been a student.
:Judging from your IP ( ), it seems that you're from the University of Edinburgh. We welcome any new contributors so why not register and start contributing? — mark ✎ 12:49, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: please use  for transliteration, in particular using   instead of . dab (ᛏ) 09:15, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: transliteration

message: Can anyone help me with the correct pronunciation of the English word "diamond" into Egyptian Arabic.  A phonetic example would be most useful.  I have been told in the past that it is pronounced similar to the word "maz" but cannot verify that anywhere.  If there is no direct word-to-word translation, I am trying to construct the sentence: "diamond of Egypt" with English letters for the Egyptian sounds.
I certainly appreciate any assistance afforded to me.
Holt
:Diamonds=Mass
:Diamond=Maassa
:Diamond of Egypt = Almazet Masr
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Karkaron (talk • contribs) 
::Hmmm... shouldn't this be "almaaz" and "almaaza" (like the district in masr el-gedida)? "Mass" sounds classical arabic. Egyegy 19:58, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diamond 

message: in the Substratum section, I found those examples that need to be corrected :
Examples of in-situ wh words:
    * rāħ maṣri ʔimta ? (راح مصر إمتى؟) "When (ʔimta) did he go to Egypt/Cairo?" (lit. "He went to Egypt/Cairo when?")
    * rāħ maṣri lēh ? (راح مصر ليه؟) "Why (lēh) did he go to Egypt/Cairo? (lit. "He went to Egypt/Cairo why?")
    * mīn [ʔilli] rāħ maṣr ? (مين [اللي] راح مصر؟) "Who (mīn) went to Egypt/Cairo? (literally - same order)
The same sentences in Standard Arabic (with all wh words in the beginning of the sentence) would be:
    *  ?
    *  ?
    *  ?
now this can be misleading, because the verb راح is not egyptian dialect specific, it's a proper arabic verb, you can check that in the following link from "المعجم الوجيز" ( the concise dictionary ) of arabic language,
http://qamoos.sakhr.com/openme.asp?fileurl=/html/4091408.html (make sure your encoding is windows-arabic-1256 )
it's a verb the same as ذهب except that it doesn't need a preposition, so it carries the meaning of "went to" not just "went"
so the correct Standard arabic examples would be :
متي راح مصر؟
لماذا راح مصر؟
من راح مصر؟
now I need help getting the IPA writing of this, I will try but if it's wrong please correct it
again the accuarcy of this part is a big question
"Two syntactic features that are particular to Egyptian Arabic (inherited from Coptic) are postposed demonstratives (i.e. "this" and "that" are placed after the noun) and in-situ wh words (i.e. "who", "when", "why" remain in their "logical" positions in a sentence rather than being preposed, or moved to the front of the sentence, as in Standard Arabic and English). Examples of the former: ʔir-rāgil da "this man" (Standard Arabic hāðā-r-rajul) and ʔil-binti di "this girl" (Standard Arabic hāðihi-l-bint)."
it is linguistically correct to say "الرجل هذا" in proper arabic! so please get me a clue why this syntax is wrong or we should label this part as inaccurate or even remove it.
Dr amr 14:43, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added my section and edits, if you have any questions please post them here, 
--Dr amr 15:35, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I copyedited the section you added, but I also had to revert the changes you made to the text sample as the "corrections" you made were simply not correct. The verb /raħa/ is used in vernacular Arabic differently than in Standard Arabic. It is simply not a convention of Standard Arabic to use the expressions you wrote above, which sound quite awkward and practically made up. They are recognizable as vernacular and would never make it to a national newspaper in Egypt. The same goes for the use of postposed demonstratives which would never be used in either Standard Arabic nor in essentially all other varieties of spoken Arabic. Again, it is simply not conventional non-Egyptian Arabic syntax. The problem you are having is that you simply want to prove that Egyptian Arabic is basically derived from Arabic. Well, that's quite fine, but the fact is neither the article nor anyone else is questioning that Egyptian Arabic is basically as its name clearly suggests, Arabic. Since this, however, is an article about Egyptian Arabic, and not Arabic in general, it is bound to explore the characteristics distinguishing spoken Egyptian. You really should familiarize yourself with some concepts in Arabic linguistics to appreciate the article, rather than respond defensively to any suggestion that Egyptian Arabic is different from Standard Arabic. I suggest exploring the sources provided in the references section, and also Versteegh's The Arabic Language  Finally, the text sample is the first article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which already has an Arabic translation written in actual Standard Arabic  — Zerida 03:40, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: It's also not clear whether maḥal is really Arabic or an Egyptian loanword. Note that even in Standard Arabic there are Egyptian loanwords (e.g. wāḥa) — Zerida 04:45, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  things that need to be corrected 

message: well, ur edits sound fine, except for, it's called أحرار not حرين , I don't know how to make you understand this!
I'm sorry sir, but this is wrong,
it's common to say , "إحنا حرين" or "إحنا أحرار"
but if you say "هما كلهم حرين" then it's wrong and awkward, the correct would be "هما كلهم أحرار"
I lived in Egypt for all my life , and I never heard someone says it like this, but you somehow find that how egyptians say it is wrong, and how you say is right, sorry , I'm editing this, aslo the reference at the head of the article about egyptian arabic is language, it's wrong, non-accurate and non-neutral and is edited
Dr amr 15:59, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: humma ḥurrīn (they are free [to do whatever they want]) is perfectly acceptable Egyptian Arabic, in addition to being a very common expression (and very apt here!) ʼaḥrār is used in "educated" Egyptian Arabic due to Standard Arabic influence, and therefore it does not provide an accurate taste for Egyptian Arabic, which is what the sample is intended for. — Zerida 03:39, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ''ḥurrīn''

message: Hello to everyone (that is, Zerida, so far!),
In regard to the description of Amin and Lutfi el-Sayyed as the "proponents of Egyptian linguistic reform", I wonder whether the knowledge of this information is to be found in or is derived from the listed references?
If yes, would you kindly specify in which of the 5 references this is mentioned?
Most appreciatively, --Maysara 21:39, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Maysara! It's mentioned in Haeri (2003), though only in passing. I suggest Wendell (1972)  for more on Lutfi's views regarding language reform. Salama Moussa was actually another exponent of Egyptian Arabic who deserves mention in the article. — Zerida 03:34, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A quest for a specific reference! 

message: Coptic hallucinations
what u'r saying in this article is very funny for an Egyptian Arab  ; actually  Egypt's dialect of Arabic is the most understood and popular dialect of Arabic language ; something that would never happen if our dialect was prominently affected by Coptic ( mainly Greek - has nothing to do with Semitic languages ) 
about the coptic calendar u mentioned ; i only know names of 2 coptic months ( Toba and Amsheer ) and i don't think any Egyptian Arab can tell me the sequence of its 12 months
 u should ask some Arabs if they find weird or hardly understood words in our dialect ; i assure u they will laugh alot to hear about the Egyptian Arabic theory of yours
Some Notes : 
1 Alexandria has its own dialect ; Recently Cairine dialect started to have an effect on it  - just like its growing effect on different rural and even upper Egypt's dialects - but u can't say :( Cairine dialect , which originated in the Nile Delta  region  around its urban centers, Cairo and Alexandria  Today ) 
this is not true ; actually Alexandrian dialect even today is still different  from Cairine dialect ; different enough to consider it : Alexandrine dialect and it's also the dialect of Alexandria's neighboring cities and centres ( Kafr el Sheikh ; Damenhour ) 
2 ( and calls for making Egyptian Arabic an official language and the language of education reappeared ) i have never heard of these calls - which can only be described as SILLY CALLS - but i'd like u to tell us WHO  called for that
3  ( some students of Arabic and linguists may find Egyptian Arabic sufficiently different as to be an independent language  ) 
Can Egypt's dialect be considered a different language from Arabic while the Lebanese and Iraqi kids and all the Arabs understand it easily ( with no need for learning it ) ? i guess it makes more sense to say that Brazilian dialect of Portuguese is a Brazilian language ; cause Brazilians don't understand the dialect of Portugal ( related to a Portuguese friend ) 
3 ( many Yemenites have adapted their everyday speech to Egyptian Arabic by borrowing Egyptian words (such as kida 'like this'; kuwayyis 'well ) i don't know how do u judge that these words r not Yemeni ; actually it's really hard for an Egyptian to beleive that some Yemeni dialects r not Egyptian ; I've heard many Yemeni dialects which r closer to my dialect from the dialects ofUpper Egypt and Western Delta 
4  ( The letter jim ج  is pronounced as a (hard) [g] in most Egyptian local dialects, apart from those of Upper Egypt  , This pronunciation is considered "typically" Egyptian Arabic. It is attested in ancient Egyptian  but may have also been the original Semitic  pronunciation of the sound - corresponding to the letter gimel  in Hebrew  and Aramaic The sound therefore may be a direct retention from ancient Egyptian, or Semitic, or it may be a secondary development from a palatal or palatalized g )  
pronunciation J : G  is originally Yemeni ; u can't relate it to other  Semitic / ancient Egyptian languages when it's the dialect of Yemenites who constituted the majority of the Arab tribes that settled down around the Nile bank following the early Arab conquest of Egypt ; u need to ask some Yemenites or just listen to the T.V.  ; they even pronounse it when they speak standard Arabic - just like we Egyptians do 
All the different Sound differences in our dialect are common in the different Arab dialects : our pronunciation of Q and Th  is common in Lebanon and Syria ; while pronounsing the Q : G is common in Saudia Arabia and Gulf
Cloud numbre 7 19:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation

message: Well.... you see, actually all "languages" are "dialects" of other languages, which are also dialects of other languages, and so on... Because languages are affected by each other, all languages have borrowed words from other languages. BUT, choosing to refer to a language as an independent language or a dialect (to relate it to another language), all depends on your very own influences, rather those be religious, political, etc...
There are many dialects from Arabic in the region: Egyptian, Moroccan, Tunisian, Levantine, Gulf, etc, and they all share common words that have their roots in Standard Arabic. But let's not ignore many facts: there are many other words that are uncommon among the "dialects", and there are dialects which are very different from each other. And bearing in mind that a language is not only made of "words", then there will be found many "grammatical", phonetic, word-order differences, etc, among those dialects/languages.
Now, let's compare this to another group of languages: Germanic Languages.
German and Dutch are both "Germanic languages", they have their common roots in the ancient "Germanic" language. It is a known situation where one German and one Dutch would speak each in his own language making up an easily-understandable dialog between them. German and Dutch are VERY similar: similar words, similar word orders, similar grammar, but yet they are two independent languages. Using the "dialect" concept, those languages should be called "the German dialect of Germanic," and "the Dutch dialect of Germanic," respectively.
Also, when you think of a language that bears the name of a country as the language solely spoken by the dwellers of that specific country, then this makes a lot of sense calling Egyptian, the language of Egyptians, the "Egyptian" language; the language of Egypt; the Egyptian "speak", etc...
Maltese is a language with many Arabic-root words, and many other Italian-root words, which makes Maltese sound like a mix of Arabic and Italian. And because Malta lacks the religious and political influences available in the Middle East, it has recognized its language as a separate independent language, because it's the language of Malta. Not an Arabic dialect, and not an Italian dialect.
--Mamduh 13:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Poor u Mamduh ; u chosed German and Dutch ? well i can speak German and Germans can never understand Dutch nor even read it without learning ; let me tell u something : the differences between Spanish dialects of Latin America and original Spanish r much more obvious than differences between Arab dialects ! 
Cloud numbre 7 13:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To Cloud number 7: can you work on the formatting? It's an eyesore to the reader and messing up the page's organization. And calling someone "poor u" is rude and against wikipedia's rules about civility. The discussion requires give and take and respect for other people's opinions... Your comparison with the Spanish dialects is strange to someone who's familiar with either subject. A better example is the Romance languages or the Slavic languages.  -Egyegy 20:09, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Masri is a language 

message: Well I've read or atleast tried to read what everyone said about dialects or languages and the origins but it was way too much.
I would like to state that the article does not appear to be biased it states that some view Egyptian Arabic as a dialcet others as a language.
It is beyond dispute the presence of Egyptian, Coptic, Turkish and to some extent French, Greek or latin influence in the language or dialect. 
What would be helpful is a list of spoken words that come from these origins.
I think the word "Masr" is of Egyptian origin as although "khmt" or "kemit" meaning the black land was what the egyptians called themselves the eastern desert and the western desert had names that began differently and ended with the word "mashr"
Plz add to my info and correct me if i'm wrong.
Plz refrain from bringing in personal beliefs or attacks and tryig to edit information to present your own point of view.
Personally I believe that egyptian arabic is just a dialect as it is understandable to any other Arabic speaker, and yet me as an Egyptian find it hard to converse in standard Arabic, I only use standard Arabic in extremely formal or official situations writing etc., or to someone who learned Arabic in an institution and isn't a native Arabic speaker. And once to a tunisian due to lack of my understanding of his dialect.
One other point Egyptian Arabic has no rules which separates it from Arabic and other languages, I know that from friends who came to Egypt study Arabic and the consensus was that Arabic was easier to learn then Egyptian "3amiya" common or general, due to the presence of grammatical structures. thus it is not a language but a dialect, even forms of written Egyptian Arabic can't help but revert back to more standard Arabic. Even the spelling is disputed, it would very difficult to read and instantly comprehend something written in Egyptian Arabic. how would you spell "enaharda" today or this morning or would it be "El Nahar dah" 
Egyptians constantly make up words and old words dissappear, slang is what really makes up the difference between Egyptian Arabic and standard Arabic. 
Sorry for Talking too long, your responses greatly appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zakaria mohyeldin (talk • contribs) 
:Hi there! To sign your messages, type in ~~~~ and your name will appear automatically when you submit your post! 
:What you're describing is standardization--or rather its lack in this case. Since there is no written standard for Egyptian Arabic, there is more room for innovation and borrowings from other languages. Egyptian Arabic is not standardized, not because there is some inherent quality that precludes it, but mainly for religious/political reasons. Standard Arabic on the other hand is regulated by the Academy of the Arabic Language in Cairo, which as you know prescribes very strict rules regarding its usage. However, linguists tend to differentiate between a language's writing system from its actual spoken form. There are many languages that are passed on by oral tradition only, including other languages spoken in Egypt like Nubian and Berber.
:It's true that Egyptian Arabic (the Cairene dialect specifically) is well understood throughout the Arabic-speaking world. However, this is not necessarily a matter of mutual intelligibility but familiarity. The reverse, for example, is not true; Egyptians don't typically understand other Arabic languages/dialects. It just so happens that Egyptian Arabic has become a lingua franca in the Middle East, the way English and French have in Europe. Egypt, namely Cairo, has been the cultural center of the ME for more than a hundred years and its influence on neighboring countries, particularly through its media, has been far reaching. This is true even with respect to Turkey and Greece to some extent.
:As regards, the influence of other languages on Egyptian Arabic, Copto-Egyptian has had the most impact. Under list of references you'll find Youssef (2003) who is an Azhar University Egyptologist that writes about the topic. Also, this link has an extensive list of words  and if you're in Egypt you may be interested in checking out the three-volume work by Sameh Maqar . The Egyptian Arabic dictionary by Badawi and Hinds (1987) has notes on the etymology of many Egyptian Arabic words. I'm not aware of other works that specifically target this issue, but I can think of a few examples right now. Greek has influenced Masri in two ways; through Coptic (e.g. tarabēza) and more recently during the European colonial period. From Italian, we get karavatta (cravatta)  and ǧilatī (gelato, ice cream). Turkish gave Egyptian Arabic lots of vocabulary, titles like hanem, names like Mervat and even morphological suffixes like -gi in words such as agzagi (pharmacist) which is now being replaced with Standard Arabic (Saudi Arabic?) ṣaydali. The Egyptian Arabic word baḫt (bakht) is of Persian origin (Arabic ḥazz). Of course, this is just the tip of the iceberg — Zerida 09:08, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Settling disputes? 

message: Substituted at 20:31, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment