Talk:Simoun (anime)/Archive 1

message: There appears to be some disagreement over whether the article should link to Yui's fan page. Reasons why I think it should:
# The page contains a significant amount of information. Although some of it is speculative and does not meet Wikipedia's standards for verifiability, it may still be of interest to readers.
# There are almost no English-language resources for this series, so links to any page of reasonable quality are beneficial at this stage.
# The link is clearly tagged as a fan page, so readers will know it is an unofficial source.
SimonB NZ 08:23, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: First off, thanks for the guidance (newbie Wikipedian here)
* Glossary redone as sorted definition list, but left on main page for now.
* Removed entry for 'Deux' as I'm not sure where it's sourced from (dialogue in the anime?). As well as the source we need the original kana, whether or not we use a direct transliteration in the glossary (e.g. the way paru has become "pal" - is this acceptable?)
SimonB NZ 14:37, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the problem is that we're trying to achieve two different things with the glossary. One is to provide a direct translation of the Japanese word list and the other is to fill out extra information about the world of Simoun. The former could be achieved with an external link to the original translation - I'll contact the translator to see whether they intend to keep their page up as a reference. The latter is better achieved by a (spoiler-free) introductory section before the character list. I'll try to draft something up, but volunteers are of course welcome. SimonB NZ 04:28, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I've added a rough draft for other volunteers to mark up.  I also standardized on "Chor" as the unit of organization of Simoun -- "Call", "Corps", and "Chor" have all been batted around in different places, but Yui's site uses "Chor", and it's a slightly more conservative romanization than "Corps." Susan Davis 05:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh, and there are a lot of places where the kana needs to be filled in, if someone feels like wandering over to simoun.tv .... -- Susan Davis 05:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I've confirmed that the original fan-translated glossary page is intended to remain up long-term, and its author is happy for us to link to it. As far as I can tell all the extra info that was in the Glossary section has been moved to Background, so with the new external link the Glossary is now redundant. (Just to clarify, 203.173.188.4 was me forgetting to log in.) SimonB NZ 12:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Actions taken 

message: No official English romanization has been released for the technical terms in this series.  What appears on the page is a provisional set of romanizations as a placeholder until official English-language sources appear.  Where possible, the original katakana (or other Japanese original text) is provided to allow the reader to make up their own mind. Susan Davis 07:34, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Chor" (コール)-- as the translator of the glossary page, I really find this unacceptable. There is no reason to add the "h", in my opinion. I prefer "Corps", which has a meaning that seems to me appropriate, but I can see that either "Kor" or "Cor" would be a more conservative way to go. I await comment before making any change. Yui's fanpages are a great resource, but are definitely not authoritative for English equivalents. hashihime 16:31, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, this is one of those "wtf were they thinking?" things, corps makes sense, 'chor' is seemingly nonsense. Is there an official site or something that uses 'chor'? Is there any other German used in the show? If there isn't, we should use the more commonplace military unit name cause that is probably the intention of the creators. (The Caudron Simoun was a french aircraft, so using german would be weird though.)  Kyaa the Catlord 17:23, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

text: "Chor" is Greek in origin, not German, and as such fits in with the rest of the pseudo-classical terminology ("auriga," "sagitta," "Tempus Spatium," "Arcus Prima," and so forth) used by the series.  It also fits in with concepts expressed on film: the Sibylla before the war were priestesses offering prayers to the sky in their Simoun, not warriors.  (And consider the title of the ED.)  I disagree that "corps" was "probably the intention of the creators" -- the Sibylla would be more likely to organize in a "choir" (chor) of priestesses than in any kind of military unit... but given that there's a war on, "Corps" probably works just as well now.  For that matter, might the name have been intentionally ambiguous in this way?  Please consider this line of reasoning before editing everything to "corps"... but if you did so, I wouldn't complain. Susan Davis 22:59, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the information. I wasn't aware of the origin of this word and it confused me. I thought it was German based on only German hits coming up when I googled it. I defer to thy greater knowledge. :D Kyaa the Catlord 10:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Romanization Choices

message: If someone more clueful in the way of Wikipedia templates can find a better template than "current", that'd be great -- I thought I remembered seeing one for marking a currently airing TV series, about which facts may change rapidly as information is revealed, but I can't seem to find one.  Help?
Susan Davis 07:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can see your dilemma, but 'current' isn't the right choice (a piece of fiction isn't an event). The background info is great to have, but at this stage in the series it's inherently speculative - as presented the background is plausible, but not verifiable. This is particularly true of terminology, since we still only have best guesses. There's also the problem of how to cite a fictional source even when the story does support a statement. In the absence of a "TV show in progress" template I've tagged the background as needing verification - this isn't ideal, but it alerts the reader and it'll hopefully gain the attention of a more experienced editor who can guide us on what to do. SimonB NZ 08:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What you want is something like :Template:Future tvshow. Shiroi Hane 23:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Solution: there's now an "In-Progress TV Show" template, which seems to be precisely what we want.  Susan Davis 19:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page Template

message: : I've gone back over the background section again, and the one sentence that was genuinely unverifiable was the one about how the Daikuurikan gender change works; I've removed that, and changed the tag to unreferencedsect.  Everything else in the section is backed up by on-screen dialogue, or external sites that are referenced at the bottom of the page; I'm just not 100% certain how to correctly cite all it, and I need to go to bed now. Susan Davis 08:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There was one more sentence speculating about how the Ri Maajon gem works; I yanked that, too.  The rest, I think, is all directly from on-screen dialogue or verifiable sources; I'll do a blow-by-blow after work tonight. Susan Davis 16:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: (Obviously, "tonight after work didn't happen; however:) Okay, next question: what's the correct way to cite facts stated by characters on screen?  Simoun is dense with exposition, which is why the "Background" section needs to be so detailed, but everything in it (and in a hypothetical "Story" section) needs to be verifiable.  The primary source text (i.e. what happens on screen) is clearly the most reliable source for verification, but how does one cite something like "Wapourif explains this to Morinas in episode 3?" Susan Davis 00:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What we've done over at Plot Summary of Eureka Seven (anime) was just use the Cite.php engine for commentary, but that's probably an improper use of Cite (not to mention, the page in question has a very different structure). 24.4.105.240 00:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I've taken a first cut at this, but I'll go back and beef it up when I'm on a machine with the series available to quote directly from. Susan Davis 19:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You've done a good job, Susan, however, I feel that adding "Wapourif explains this to Morinas in episode 3" is superfluous. I think, it's enough if we just say "Episode 03" without any more narrowing. An ep is only 20 minutes long, and if someone wants to verify a certain piece of info, it can be found without much effort in it. Moreover, this way we can compact the refs section a bit (I'll do some prework on that as soon as I finish this message, so you know what I'm talking about) and in the end, it'll look like this. What do you say? --Koveras 17:06, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations

message: How about listing all the Latin terms and names used in the series somewhere in the article? Like Simulacrum, Sybil, Auriga, etc. --Koveras 12:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually we had one to begin with, but it was expunged per TheFarix's "fancruft" comments under Cleanup. There's an EL to the full glossary, so my feeling is that within the article we should only give the briefest descriptions necessary to make the text comprehensible. This is a special case of that fact that we're still carrying way too much in-universe stuff contrary to WP:WAF, as discussed under Splitting. Don't get me wrong, I think there's some great material here, but clearly a brutal cleanup is in order: the last thing we should be doing right now is making that job harder. SimonB NZ 08:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latin terms 

message: Should Vyura be listed under "Chor Tempest?"  Or would that be too much of a spoiler?  Susan Davis 09:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Too much of a spoiler, IMO - plus it might confuse anyone who (despite the warnings) reads this article before watching the series. SimonB NZ 04:27, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes. Susan Davis 22:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

text: There's a lively discussion of this over in the AnimeSuki forum.  It's ambiguous at best, and in theory anyone who doesn't choose a sex should begin to develop the disorder in time.  Whether Aaeru and Neviril's improved version of the Suigyoku moving them out of normal time has made them immune to this is a nice question, as is whether Limone and Dominura subsequently manage the same thing... or if the two ever wind up going to the Spring.  Presumably, The shapes of their faces are fairly similar, and both are tall, but Onashia is even taller than Dominura.  Hmm, not that I recall ever actually seeing the two of them side-by-side.  Yun should also contract the disorder eventually, unless she gives up her office and enters the Spring.  Susan Davis 00:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Characters 

message: Anyone else notice that the Argentines (well, the head-of-state midway through episode 26) speak reversed Japanese? The usual order of phrases is reversed for the Argentine VA dialogue, and the whole thing is reversed through a sound editor. Magus Melchior 08:45, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The speaker in episode 26 was Plumbish, not Argentine.  Is the Argentine dialogue from the earlier episodes also reversed? Susan Davis 22:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Argentine language