Talk:Tetraethyllead

message: Why does this page not mention the impact of tetraethyl on the atmosphere, in particular the ozone layer? This seems a rather glaring omission.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ozoney11 (talk • contribs) 07:15, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm unaware of any connection. Do you have a source? Also, you should move this comment to the bottom of the talk page so it will be seen. Kendall-K1 (talk) 16:23, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Ozone

message: I did not find any proof that the addition of TEL improved fuel economy to the degree indicated.  Sources?
Leaded gasoline is not as illegal as you might think.  While I don't think leaded gas is sold at the (automobile) pump anymore, genuine tetra-ethyl lead is available as an additive quite legally (although expensively) for those running old cars.  In addition, AVGAS contains lead.  I suspect some racing fuel might.  In the United Kingdom I understand leaded four-star is still available at some petrol stations.
Some racing fuel, at least in the U.S., does contain lead.68.231.184.217 (talk) 14:30, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: 110 octane rated leaded gasoline is available at the pump for off road vehicle use only- it isn't cheap as I purchased three gallons for my quad for $20.00.   Haamerhed (talk) 16:08, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

text: I own a car built for 100 octane leaded gas with a 10:1 compression ratio.  It's a pain.  Octane-boosting additives dont' work as well as advertised. --Morven 11:33, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

text: tetra-ethyl lead is available -- This article uses the terms "phase-out" and "ban" many times so as to create the false impression their is no tetraethyl lead anymore.  Only if you read the small section about avgas do you notice that the article contains this contradiction.  As for fuel economy I have not looked for a source but if you increase the power of a fuel it should take less to do the same amount of work. Breedentials (talk) 13:32, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed this in a couple places to try to make this more clear. As for fuel economy, petrol plus TEL contains the same amount of energy as plain petrol, maybe slightly less. The improvement in economy would come from the higher compression ratio, presumably giving a higher thermal efficiency, but I don't have a source for this either. Kendall-K1 (talk) 14:24, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

text: Tetraethyllead does not improve fuel economy by itself. It only allows higher compression ratios to be used, and that improves fuel economy. (Even today, people should not buy high-octane fuel if their cars don't ping on the lower octane fuel.) Eric Kvaalen (talk) 13:33, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Fuel economy

message: I am deleting the following until there is a citation or other backup:
"Some neurologists have speculated that the lead phaseout may have caused average IQ levels to rise by several points in the United States (by reducing cumulative brain damage throughout the population, especially in the young)."
If someone can back it up, then by all means move it back.  But until it's backed up, it actually weakens the article to insert excited statements like this without a citation.
how about this:
Environ Health Perspect. 2005 Jul;113(7):894-9.
Low-level environmental lead exposure and children's intellectual function: an international pooled analysis.
Lanphear BP, Hornung R, Khoury J, Yolton K, Baghurst P, Bellinger DC, Canfield RL, Dietrich KN, Bornschein R, Greene T, Rothenberg SJ, Needleman HL, Schnaas L, Wasserman G, Graziano J, Roberts R.
Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center, Cincinnati, Ohio 45229-3039, USA. bruce.lamphear@cchmc.org
Lead is a confirmed neurotoxin, but questions remain about lead-associated intellectual deficits at blood lead levels < 10 microg/dL and whether lower exposures are, for a given change in exposure, associated with greater deficits. The objective of this study was to examine the association of intelligence test scores and blood lead concentration, especially for children who had maximal measured blood lead levels < 10 microg/dL. We examined data collected from 1,333 children who participated in seven international population-based longitudinal cohort studies, followed from birth or infancy until 5-10 years of age. The full-scale IQ score was the primary outcome measure. The geometric mean blood lead concentration of the children peaked at 17.8 microg/dL and declined to 9.4 microg/dL by 5-7 years of age; 244 (18%) children had a maximal blood lead concentration < 10 microg/dL, and 103 (8%) had a maximal blood lead concentration < 7.5 microg/dL. After adjustment for covariates, we found an inverse relationship between blood lead concentration and IQ score. Using a log-linear model, we found a 6.9 IQ point decrement [95% confidence interval (CI), 4.2-9.4] associated with an increase in concurrent blood lead levels from 2.4 to 30 microg/dL. The estimated IQ point decrements associated with an increase in blood lead from 2.4 to 10 microg/dL, 10 to 20 microg/dL, and 20 to 30 microg/dL were 3.9 (95% CI, 2.4-5.3), 1.9 (95% CI, 1.2-2.6), and 1.1 (95% CI, 0.7-1.5), respectively. For a given increase in blood lead, the lead-associated intellectual decrement for children with a maximal blood lead level < 7.5 microg/dL was significantly greater than that observed for those with a maximal blood lead level > or = 7.5 microg/dL (p = 0.015). We conclude that environmental lead exposure in children who have maximal blood lead levels < 7.5 microg/dL is associated with intellectual deficits.
PMID: 16002379 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Can't see where to insert this comment, so putting it here. It's sted ' In Europe, Professor Derek Bryce-Smith was among the first to highlight the potential dangers of TEL and became a leading campaigner for removal of lead additives from petrol' yet the UK is not on the list of countries with dates when it was removed from petrol. Derek Bryce-Smith was British by the way.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.227.141 (talk) 10:10, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Neurotoxicity / affect on IQ

message: http://www.radford.edu/%7ewkovarik/ethylwar/#myths
This page has a lot about tetra-ethyl lead (the link jumps directly to the section Ten Myths About Leaded Gasoline).
At the very top of that page there is a link to another resource: http://www.radford.edu/%7ewkovarik/ethylwar/IJOEH.pdf
: Link above no longer works. This journal article can be found at , and an archived copy is at .
This is a rather damning piece by William Kovarik about the role of industries in the whole tetra-ethyl lead thing.
134.173.57.118 (talk) 05:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  untapped resources? 

message: The synthesis section states that TEL is produced by reactive a sodium-lead alloy with ethyl chloride. However, the formula given (4 NaPb + 4 CH3CH2Cl →...) implies the existence of a sodium lead compound (NaPb). Could someone check the reference given, and possibly explain how sodium and lead form a simple 1:1 compound? I'd expect to find oxygen in there too.--Rossheth | Talk to me 21:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Remind us why Na and Pb are not supposed to make an alloy or a compound? Looks fine to me. There is no oxygen in this material, in fact oxygen would poison the material. One lead is Zintl phase.--Smokefoot (talk) 23:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So it is a compund, not an alloy? I'll change the article then.--Rossheth | Talk to me 17:42, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not unusual to denote stoichiometry in alloys with notation like NaPb or Na4Pb. (It is not a compound, like GaAs, for example.) The notation "Na/Pb" would not indicate the 1:1 stoichiometry. Read the reference, the article is really amazing. They tried practically every other possible way to synthesize TEL, without success, before it was banned. --Vuo (talk) 15:37, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Synthesis 

message: Explanation of engine knock is erroneous.  Engine knock actually takes place during compression and ignition, rather than during the exhaust stroke.  Refer to the wiki on ENGINE KNOCK.
198.190.156.119 (talk) 20:11, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Organometallics article very specifically states that the uncontrolled ignition, or engine knock, was a problem during the exhaust stroke in Midgley's engine. Either the Organometallics author misunderstood something or then it was really during exhaust stroke. I don't doubt that preignition could also be a problem. --Vuo (talk) 17:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Organometallics author misunderstood something fundamental about how a 4-stroke engine operates. The only phase during which knock can occur is when both of the valves (intake and exhaust) are closed and the piston is at or approaching Top Dead Centre. If an intake valve is open when the fuel charge spontaneously ignites, we get a backfire or spitback. If an exhaust valve is open when the fuel charge spontaneously ignites, we get an exhaust tract explosion. Neither is at all similar to knock, which occurs only in a completely enclosed cylinder. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 19:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Engine knock

message: I went to this current TEL article reference (ref 6 today), 
"Blood Lead Levels in Young Children--United States and Selected States, 1996--1999 (2000). (U.S.) Centers for Disease Control. Retrieved on 8-17-2009." http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4950a3.htm#tab1
scanned it, and found little reason to support the formation of this statement from the study:
"In a 2000 U.S. study, the highest blood lead levels were about 27 μg/dL (county averages)."
Unless I have read the CDC report wrongly, I would suggest the sentence and reference be removed, as the sentence appears to have erroneous information in it (27 micrograms/deciliter??? No, it is 27 percent (%) for highest county percentage, from Figure 1).Jack B108 (talk) 17:04, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Toxicity section sentence and ref

message: It is incorrect to say alcohol absorbs water from the air; "causing fuel system corrosion". Unless very saturated with water, alcohol forms a miscible azeotrope with it. It can then pass freely thru the fuel system, not impeding flow. Fuel  drying agents contain Methanol for that exact purpose.
Also, what Is  the octane rating of Tetraethyl Lead? I assume it can't be burned directly, like iso-octane, but can't the percentages  used to raise octane be  extrapolated to calculate this?68.231.184.217 (talk) 14:39, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ask again in WP:Reference desk/Science Plasmic Physics (talk) 01:14, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

text: I don't know if "alcohol" causes corrosion, either directly or indirectly, in a fuel system. Whether (methyl) alcohol and water are miscible (they are) has virtually nothing to do with whether an alcohol-water mixture is corrosive - and even less to do with whether an alcohol-water-fuel mixture is corrosive. Miscibility is, by definition a property of two (or more) compounds to be soluble in one another in all proportions (that is from →zero to →100%). IOW "Miscible azeotrope" is meaningless. Finally, Lead burns. TEL burns. What temperature is required for self-supporting combustion, IDK. (And, I admit it's unlikely that TEL could be used, neat, in an internal combustion engine as fuel.) All this is to say the above comments are worse than wrong.98.21.68.176 (talk) 23:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Used as Octane Booster?

message: This article states that leaded gas is still available in Algeria, yet is totally banned continent-wide in Africa. Which is it?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.150.172.40 (talk) 23:52, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Addressed. Thanks for pointing it out. —Scheinwerfermann T·C00:43, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Africa 

message: This edit changed the word "seat" to "seal." Is this correct, given that the item in question is commonly known as a valve seat? SoledadKabocha (talk) 01:10, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Valve seat or seal 

message: There are several problems here. One is the the lead, or opening section, summarizes the body of the article. So the lung cancer would go in the body first, then if it seems important enough, would be summarized in the lead. Second, your source says the "EPA has determined that lead is a probable cancer-causing agent." It doesn't mention lung cancer in connection to Tetraethyllead. It also attributes this to EPA, which we would also need to do. Finally, your ref wasn't properly formatted, but I'd be happy to fix that for you. Kendall-K1 (talk) 04:29, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lung cancer 

message: I don't see any reason to mention ethanol in the intro, so I moved it. If it does need to be mentioned in the intro, we need to get our story straight in the body, then summarize it in the intro. Right now it almost looks like we're contradicting ourselves ("corrosive to the steel"? unspecified "commercial reasons"?). Kendall-K1 (talk) 12:50, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethanol 

message: Please discuss here before adding information about TEL being a carcinogen. The source being cited does not even mention TEL. Kendall-K1 (talk) 19:12, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carcinogen 

message: I took out the part about "When both leaded and unleaded fuels were available at a given service station, the unleaded type was commonly labeled as 'regular' in the US and 'unleaded' elsewhere." This is not true. In the US, the choices were "Regular" (leaded) and "Unleaded". You can see the choice of fuel types in this photo from 1972:  Kendall-K1 (talk) 15:22, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unleaded vs Regular 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: it have never been illegal in norway. it have however lost popularity and very few places sells it these days. i heard that they were going to make cars that uses leaded fuel more expensive to own. i never heard of a ban and i have lived in norway since before the date that is listed. the sentence about leaded fuel being banned in norway should therefore be removed as it is not true.84.212.111.156 (talk) 09:48, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  leaded fuel is not banned in norway 

message: The suggestion that tetraethyl lead was adopted because it was more profitable then ethanol is a rather biassed view.  At that time , the USA didn't produce enough grain to make sufficient alcohol to act as an anti knock additive for gasoline.  Alcohol has to be added in large quantity to effectively raise the octane rating of gasoline.  Tetraethyl lead is added in very small quantities and, at the time, was the best option.  At the time everyone knew that alcohol was effective as an anti-knock agent.  Anyone could have used it but they didn't because the fuel consumption would rise dramatically as alcohol has a lower calorific value than gasoline.  There were great protests about the toxicity at the time, but it came into use and not many died, to protests declined.  Latterly toxicity was again raised as an issue and better gasoline formulations were derived that overcame the need to use lead.
:It does seem to be a claim that needs better sourcing (the current source is an article in a political publication that is presenting one particular point of view), so I have removed the claim for now.  -- Ed (Edgar181) 20:19, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tetraethyl lead 

message: The current source for the statement "TEL offered the business advantage of being commercially profitable because its use for this purpose could be patented." is quite poor. It mentions "patent" only once in the body text, and it's a reference to the patent text predicting future changes in anti-knock approaches. This article from the Organometallics journal appears to be a much better source, as it extensively covers the activity around the patents. However, I don't know the best way to make this change; citations have changed a lot since I last edited frequently. davidstrauss (talk) 07:18, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patent motivations 

message: There are 2 sections within this article mentioning 'phase-out' with a potential doubling up of information within this article.
I was considering doing a CE and merging the sections 'Phase out and ban" and "Controversy and phase out".
Any thoughts on this proposal?
Textualism (talk | contribs) 13:03, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phase Out sections / possible merge. 

message: It looks like, this has got the "Chemical agents" category or whatever you'd call it on it, which appears to be a list of chemical warfare agents, but there's no mention in the main text of the article of it ever having been used as a chemical weapon and from a quick Web search I can't find any mention of it ever having been used as one - maybe someone misread what the "Chemical agents" category was for.  Wombat140 (talk) 02:13, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chemical agents 

message: This article contains a series of contradictions. It's bad, really bad. The toxicity section claims 6 ml of TEL is "enough to induce severe lead poisoning". I'm not sure if its more laughable or pathetic. First of all, while it's reasonable to assume the claim refers to humans, I'm betting 6 ml injected into the brain of a 1 day old infant would have significantly different results than 6 ml delivered via a rectal suppository to a 200 pound adult. What do you think, is route of administration important? Hey, how about this: why not pretend to try to conform to the standards of toxicology? Species, route, dose PER KILOGRAM for a start. 98.21.68.176 (talk) 23:42, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awful article