Talk:Introduction to evolution/Archive 3

message: A lot of reformating; appreciate the enthusiasm, however, it really looks horrible on my screen. I would be in support of a revert, then perhaps a more systematic approach to the changes. A rather dramatic sequence of format changes without prior discussion. Not sure about the informal writing banner. As an introduction entry it is meant to be a little less uptight. Is the information incorrect? --Random Replicator 23:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I too see a lot of white space at the top, so it's not just your screen. I've changed the quote format, since I gather (from other comments I've seen in the past) that quote boxes are actually frowned upon in article space. It's certainly not required. Skittle 00:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, loads of white space. The format worked well before, whichever WP "skin" you chose. Now it's a mess. I propose an instant revert to the old format, then a discussion, if necessary. Snalwibma 06:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now restored the top-of-page design. A few other changes are maybe OK - I liked the "see also" list in three columns, but perhaps it didn't work on some screens - not so important. I will, however, restore the balance and subordination of headings around "prezygotic barriers" - far too heavy on the headings at present. Snalwibma 06:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reformating 

message: I am not convinced by the need for the "tone" tag that has been inserted below the "An example" heading. This is meant, after all, to be a basic introductory article, and an informal tone seems exactly what is needed. Perhaps 100110100 would like to come here and explain further, with suggestions. Snalwibma 06:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tone

message: I also disagree whole-heartedly with the claim that the "tone" of the article or any section of the article is unencyclopedic. Someone just shows up, throws a bunch of random changes into the article with no discussion or explanation, and then leaves. I also do not know what was wrong with having the "see also" list in 3 columns, or having a quote in a quote box. These are just sort of nonsense objections. Is there any concrete example that the editors can point to of a serious problem?--Filll 15:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How was the quote box thing a nonsense objection? Someone wondered why the quote had been put in a quote box, and whether this was required. I, who have watched this article since creation, but haven't wanted to interfere with the more knowledgable as they built the basics, removed the quote box, as I have seen such things specifically described as 'discouraged' in article space, and didn't feel such a change would be controversial. It's not like anyone said 'this article is rubbish because it has a quote box'. People queried and changed the article, as they are supposed to. What's up? :-S Skittle 21:32, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Miscommunication ... thank you for reverting to the original. I think he meant "blocked quote" not quote box; since that is the way Filll originally formatted it and the way it is now. Looks perfect. Not to speak on his behalf; but I think he was referring to the edits by 10000001000010000010000 :) --Random Replicator 23:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Also thank you for your interest, does the overall article pass muster in terms of readablity and clarity?--Random Replicator 00:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent changes 

message: First of all, I think this is very good, my background is in mathematics, so I know very little about evolution, except what I learned in high-school. Some points after reading this:
# The lead is currently a simplified overview of evolution, and so it doesn't do justice to what is covered in this article. I really liked the population genetics section, and I think this article should start in a similar way giving the complicated definition, and promise that it will be explained. The lead can then continue as it is now, or be subtitled "A simple overview" with the lead paragraph instead following more closely what this article is about.
# The sections on Darwin and Mendel are very nice, easy to follow, and lead to population genetics in a natural way. I liked that!
# Should there perhaps be a forward link to the species section in the Darwin section to indicate the precise definition will be discussed.
## What exactly do you mean by "sexual reproduction works by the mixing of separate factors (genes)", perhaps instead "separate", one can use "underlying factors" or what is the meaning of separate here? This could perhaps be explained by expanding what was the previous theory: what does it mean to think that heredity works "by the blending of inherited characters"
# Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium is well-explained, 
## but just for clarity could the sentence "frequencies of alleles in a population’s gene pool will not change over time unless acted upon by forces other than" be rephrased to avoid a triple negation. The "other than" can easily be missed (or uhm, okay, ignorant and sloppy readers like myself can miss it). 
## These short footnotes, 4 and 5, could probably be written out in the text.
# The example section, again very nice
## "For this equilibrium to persist, the following conditions must be met" I'm assuming that with the exception of random mate selection, these conditions map directly into the four evolutionary forces. If this relationship could be more explicit, I think it would be a good thing.
## The section ends with this process being called microevolution, whenever you see micro, you wonder what about macro. Here I understand some people think macro is micro and others don't agree, and you consider this outside the scope of this article perhaps, but I don't. I was immediately annoyed by the rude disrespect for symmetry to leave the (what is macroevolution then) completely unanswered.
# Evidence for evolution. I like it, minor quibbles:
## The Bible reference I don't think is needed, already says the view was supported by current theology.
## Comparative anatomy while starting out strong, loses focus near the end: "A common misconception is that organisms re-enact their evolutionary history during fetal development." What is the relationship between this misconception and evidence for evolution? Ah, perhaps the point here is to clarify that “ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny” is not the evidence, as some creationist booklets seem to think.
## Vestigial structures and convergent evolution perhaps deserve sub-sub-headings?
# Artificial selection. The first paragraph should expand what artificial selection means, specifically that it results in certain traits being preferred over others, and so is related to evolution.
# Molecular biology. This has been simplified in a way that I don't see this proving evolution very much. I think this needs some substantiation.
# (I'm spending too much time on details, skipping to bigger concerns) The species section starts a bit disruptively, it is unclear what it is doing there. I'm not sure where this section should be placed, or perhaps it simply requires a better intro.
# I don't like the misconception section. Things like "Evolution is a theory like the theory of gravity" should be made clear by this article presenting as much evidence in an understandable form. I would drop the entire misconception section, putting the useful information in the article, e.g.
## That evolution has no goal and no direction can be pointed out at the vestigial structure section.
## Many of them can be joined into the next section... which brings us to
# Merge the short objection section with the "evolution and culture" into something like "evolution and society", and where is the picture of Darwin as a monkey???????
Ah, well, thank you for reading my ramblings... --Merzul 21:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Merzul you have certainly given us much to consider. This is the first serious critique since the articles inception. I have Spring break in a few days; and I will tackle this list ... it is 2:00 AM  ... I can only imagine what damage my edits would do now. No doubt Filll and Snalwimba will be interested in your suggestions as well. It was a very interesting process of constructing this article; I threw words on the screen and they made sense out of them ... I am extremely biased but I thought it came out well. We went with a more flattering picture of Darwin; the one on the main page looks like he is demonically possessed, so we decided to give him a break here! Thanks for the suggestions and the positive comments. --Random Replicator 05:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beginner's review 

message: Seems to be some issues with text formating in introduction at least on my computers; anyone with skills feel free to reformat! 
--Random Replicator 11:38, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  compressed text 

message: A lot of "improvements" without the courtesy of commentary. Granted it is a back-burner entry but a lot of thought did go into its construction. The deletion of the passage regarding micro-evolution for example; was there a reason? Merzul suggestion was that the micro discussion was unbalanced in that it lacked any immediate reference to macro. This is a very good point that needs to be addressed. If you feel a need to contribute then construct a carefully worded explanation that allows the reader to contrast the two views. Do not just "delete". So for now at least, I suggest a revert to return the micro-evolution example; followed by the addition of a simplified explanation of macro to "balance" as per Merzuls suggestions. There were several other excellent suggestions in Merzul's commentary that could also be addressed. Commentary --- Discussion --- Modification; not all that complicated of a process. --71.77.209.218 00:15, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revisions without discussion? 

message: I think the removal of the reference to microevolution is perhaps a good idea. Or, if it does stay, it really would be better to balance it by mentioning macro as well. Maybe something like this:
Such a situation rarely, if ever, exists in a natural population. Therefore, frequencies of alleles in a gene pool are always changing, resulting in the evolution of populations over successive generations. Small-scale changes in the distribution or "frequencies" of genes in a gene pool at the population level are sometimes referred to as microevolution, as opposed to macroevolution, which occurs at the species level or above. The modern evolutionary synthesis, however, sees no real distinction between microevolution and macroevolution, describing the latter as the cumulative effect of the former, with the only difference being one of time and scale.
But maybe it would be better to delete the reference to micro and macro altogether at this point (it runs the risk of being a meaningless diversion from the main story), and instead add an item to the "Common misconceptions" section. Or would that be too contentious (i.e. not clearly enough a misconception)? Snalwibma 06:46, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lets not add to the misconception list I would rather edit the current section to your passage above. Your explanation seems clear and balanced.  ... all in favor?.... opposed? .... Looks like your version wins; at least until someone comes along and deletes it :) --Random Replicator 02:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I copy/pasted your suggested rewrite. Others may object, we will see. --Random Replicator 03:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm a layman who stumbled across this page and was very confused by the use of the term 'microevolution'. In my admittedly limited experience this term is not widely used in any modern scientific context. All legitimate uses of the word I've seen were either published before WW2, references to those older works, or dismissals of modern pro-ID material. As I understand it the few scientific distinctions made by respectable authors using these terms were never popular or widely accepted, and the terms are now effectively relegated to propaganda tools. I'll remove that paragraph now as it doesn't seem to read well with the references removed, I hope that's acceptable. 124.243.178.110 23:04, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And my edit has been reverted. Also I moved my text to this section, I feel it fits better here. Further comments on the micro/macro issue? 124.243.178.110 14:24, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was not aware that the terms micro- and macro- evolution are dated terminology. I was flipping through Campbell Biology 6th edition and noted both are discussed as major headings. More specifically, micro defined as variations in frequencies of genes in the gene pool which lead to macro-evolution; defined as more conspicuious changes such as those related to speciation. I think the terms merit attention, even in this introductory article. It is true that many attempt to over-emphasize the difference between the terms when in reality, it is just a matter of time and scale; but that is clearly addressed in Snalwibma's rewrite. From the discussion above, I am uncertain if there is still an objection, but in my opinion Snalwimba captured the essence of the terms in his rewrite most effectively. --Random Replicator 01:59, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Microevolution and macroevolution

message: Snalwibma, what is your objection to the correction of the Objections section? For, as it stands it makes a straw man out of those who hold to creation on the basis of science. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RatKingSmurf (talk • contribs) 
-I recently reverted a change to the objections section. It was petty heavy with weasel words and wasn't factual. I will, of course, welcome any debate to improve the article.--NeoNerd 18:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, too.  Just so consensus is clearly established. -FisherQueen (Talk) 19:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, that explains it!--NeoNerd 19:15, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Speaking of deception; I attended a seminar by a man named Ken Ham. Does he not realize that intelligent people will see through his corruption of science; and thus he only cast a shadow of doubt over his religious/moral message. Bad call when you attempt to turn the bible into a science text; not going to save any souls that way. Sorry RAT, the earth is not flat nor the  center of the universe, despite the fact that people who rejected such a notion were told that they would burn in hell. The same will hold true for evolution. Sorry. --Random Replicator 02:32, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Objections

message: I was thinking some of the early discussions could be archived. Most of it dealt with "start-up" issues. It is also a long scroll to the bottom. Maybe through February to the topic "Viable". I do not know how to Archive and I would hate to delete anything in my experimentation. :(    --Random Replicator 13:33, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archive 

message: Pasted from above; some excellent suggestions by Merzul that we could perhaps consider. Feel free to comment within the text below as I have done; sort of a check off sheet. --Random Replicator 00:22, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  To-do list  

message: I moved it down here. Is that legal? Did not want to crowd my to do list.
Now deleted from above , so this is the only location for discussion of the Mendel section.
Proposed rewrite: To address Merzul's list and an attempt to "squeeze" in LaMarck's acquired traits.--Random Replicator 14:30, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Darwin’s theory of natural selection laid the groundwork for evolutionary theory, although he lacked an explanation for the source of the variations within the population. He deduced that heritable traits were a product of the environment, but he did not follow his predecessor Jean-Baptiste Lamarck in believing that characters acquired in life could be passed on to offspring. It was the emergence of the field of genetics, pioneered by Gregor Mendel (1822-1884), that provided the missing information necessary to help explain the emergence of new traits. Mendel’s experiments with breeding pea plants led him to realize that heredity in sexual reproduction works by reshuffling and recombining factors (genes) during sexual reproduction. This recombination of genes in the offspring leads to variations, ensuring that no two individuals would be exact copies. The merging of Darwin's theory with an understanding of heredity led to the birth of the field of science called "population genetics". --- Snalwibma 10:01, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mendel Rewrite Copy/pasted from above 

message: ...heredity in sexual reproduction works by the mixing of separate factors (genes), not by the blending of inherited characters... I have some knowledge of evolutionary basics, but I don't know what this fragment means, particularly the "blending of inherited characters" bit.  Joyous! | Talk 23:05, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Blending," in this case, meant that, for example, if one were to breed a black horse with a white horse, all of the resultant foals would be gray or piebald.  Prior to Mendel, people thought that heritable characteristics always blended together.--Mr Fink 23:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This sequence is on the above list to "clean-up"; perhaps we need either clarification or a re-write in regard to what blending implies since this is the second guest to review the article that noted some clarity issues. Happy to see that there was not no need to be fixing to meny errers. I actually thought their woiuld be's more. Thank you Joyous for checking on it; please feel free to add it t your watch list; we are still tweaking it so knew errers will sertainly appare. :) --Random Replicator 05:11, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  from "mendel's contributions" 

message: I guess I agree with removing the "objections to evolution" section and the reordering. I am a bit sad to see the part about human vestigial structures, and of course "my" section including "man is but a monkey shaved" gone. I guess these were not crucial, but I think they make it fun and interesting. That is what attracts students and the general public to an article, I think. If a subject is just bone dry, people lose interest quickly. Just MHO.--Filll 17:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Deleted my diatribe and moved it to Filll's talk page where it is more appropriate ... if anyone should care?! --Random Replicator 14:37, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Do realize that Haekel's idea was, as an organism, for example a human mammal, underwent embryonic development, it went from protist to sponge to chordate to fish to amphibian to non-primate mammal to primate to human. Even though Haekel's idea has been disproven, today, though, “ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny” means that as an organism undergoes embryonic development, the fetus/embryo develops and or acquires features that it shares with related organisms, most of these features being shared with closely related species.--Mr Fink 16:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes 

message: 12) The species section starts a bit disruptively, it is unclear what it is doing there. I'm not sure where this section should be placed, or perhaps it simply requires a better intro
There could be a need for transistion here. The species section starts rather abruptly. I like what is there (personal bias) but we need a tie in sentence or two or three or ... so we connect species to the process of evolution early into the section. In others words, an open invitation to would be editors to contribute here. --Random Replicator 14:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The difficulty is to do so without setting up a creationist-magnet and inviting lots of irrelevant stuff about macro- and microevolution. Maybe, though a little lead-in sentence like "The most obvious result of evolution over a long timescale is the emergence of new species." Snalwibma 15:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that's not right. It may not be obvious at all. How about "Given the right circumstances, and enough time, evolution leads to the emergence of new species." And then continue with the existing text. Snalwibma 15:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That works. Lets give it a day or two and see if anyone objects.  --71.77.209.218 00:33, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made the change to the article. --Snalwibma 05:38, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Darwin section "Over time, helpful genetic variations will accumulate until a new species results." This is the line that would benefit from the "forward link" as sugessted by #2 on the "List".  Snalwibma, your thoughts? It is true the the species section will/does address this later in the article. I'm not sure how a forward link is done although I like the idea. It brings the two related sections together by leaping over the material in between. --Random Replicator 21:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  #1 and #8 on "The List". I hate messing with the intro. It is impossble to make one that captures such a broad topic. The Main Article Evolution page intro will never be stable. I don't think I wrote this one ... it may have been the only thing here when we arrived. If you get bored however tweak away. I not sure about #8 either. I don't know how to say it any differently. I'm thinking the overall article looks good. They were excellent suggestions on the list  and I think we fined tuned it a lot. --Random Replicator 21:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It feels somewhat naked without banners or something at the top of the discussion page to give it an official look. Any suggestions or add ons that we can put up there such as "This article is Godly --- yet covers an ungodly topic so is thus controversial" or whatever? --Random Replicator 21:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sure we can get banners for it if you really want.--Filll 22:56, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Species 

message: Should we request some sort of peer review or something; request for more "list". Is there a stamp of approval we can seek; or am I just getting a big head and we need to leave well enough alone? --Random Replicator 21:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad to hear you like the idea of Introduction to Genetics. We could ask to be recognized as a good article. I am not sure we are ready for featured article.--Filll 21:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just nominated this article to be recognized as a "good article." We will see what happens. I think it might take a couple of weeks to hear back however.--Filll 22:55, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ha! About time. This is a rather nice complement to the main article, that ideally we should also get to FA - the two complement each other nicely content-wise. Adam Cuerden talk 12:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can I reintroduce my "shaved monkeys" now or should I wait until after we get a GA decision?--Filll 13:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok I replaced it. Hopefully we can enlarge the list.--Filll 16:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved it to a side-box. I think we should probably keep it fairly focused, lest it becomes a trivia section, but as a little side-box, with only quotes from the Victorian period that are still well-known today, it works pretty well. Adam Cuerden talk 16:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent idea, Adam. And I agree that it should be kept short and focused. Victorians only! Maybe the text should indeed say something like "some of the best-known early references..." Snalwibma 16:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Peer review and [[Introduction to Genetics]]

message: The article currently uses Harvard-style footnotes for references. As the trend for scientific FAs seems to be toward using the  format, are there folks here who feel strongly about sticking with the Harvard style? -- MarcoTolo 15:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This folk here doesn't feel strongly. Consistency and clarity are essential. Sticking to the current footnote/reference format is not. But I hope this is not the thin end of a wedge, and part of a push towards a dramatic increase in the number of references. We really do not need every sentence to be connected umbilically to a citation, as in some (unreadable) articles! For an introductory article like this one, the main supporting reference is the full wikipedia article on Evolution, and anyone interested in following up every detail through a reference trail should be there, not here. </rant> ;-) Snalwibma 15:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Excessive referencing isn't my intent. I do think the article should provide appropriate refs, but, as an introductory article, I don't think a "ref-per-sentence" is needed. Further, for this type of entry, the references also need to be accessible. My concern over ref style was based on the if-this-article-could-become-FA-material-someday thinking. -- MarcoTolo 15:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My general rule is: cite everything that seems surprising or controversial. Combine refs as needed for clarity: We could easily do something like have a ref tag at the end of each paragraph, and in that tag write
 
* Punctuated equilibrium: Person, A., Referencing Wikipedia Articles on Evolution p 129-147
* Hopeful monsters: Ominous, Ann, Disproven Scientific Theories, p. 5981-3 
* Selfish Genes: Hawkings, D., Mine! All mine!, passim.
Or whatever strikes us as convenient. It needs to be verifiable and well-cited - remember, much of the material in this article isn't in the main article, so we can't depend upon that! But we can combine cites into one however we like, as long as it's reasonable.  Adam Cuerden talk 16:22, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reference format

message: I thought the article was very good, well-written and broad in its coverage, but the fact the the entire article only has one reference prevents me from making it as a good article. I read some of the comments in the talk page pertaining to references and I will try to explain why they are important. Although the main article Evolution is near the featured article level and is very well sourced, it is nonetheless a different article. People that read this article and only it could be skeptical of the information since no refs are given. See Wikipedia:Verifiability for more (it says, for example, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". I've added the article to the Unreferenced GA Nominations List. See WP:UGA for more about that project. Again I would love to make it a GA, but it just doesn't meet the criteria because of the refs. Good luck! Djlayton4 | talk  |  contribs 17:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is silly. The article has loads of references, under see also, further reading, external links. This is supposed to be an introductory article. I hope it does not become plagued with fussy citations and footnotes as so many of the wikipedia science articles are. This is, by any objective standards, a Good Article. In fact it explains things much better than the main Evolution article. </rant>. Poujeaux 17:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:   : (     I'm not sure what to cite. To me, by virtue of teaching this topic for so long it appeared to me to be common knowledge. Something on the level of "The mammalian heart has four chambers". Who do you give credit to? Should we shot-gun a few to elevate credibility? I'm not opposed if it will get us the "good seal of approval". This information - nearly every line - can be found in any biology text. I do not want "attempted good article but failed at the top"; thats not the banner I had in mind. If the reference issue is the only problem; then perhaps we should just correct it. "I thought the article was very good, well-written and broad in its coverage"  That was a very nice compliment. --Random Replicator 02:45, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

text: That is unfortunate. I should have asked for a rating I guess instead of having it considered for "good article". I am still fairly new here and there are lots of rules I do not know. I am not sure if we should put a ton of citations in. They do not bother me, but I am not the target audience. What do others think? --Filll 03:13, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a way to solve this. We could argue that introductory articles are special cases, and start discussing the GA criteria, arguing for ignoring the rules. Or we could satisfy the critics but do it in a manner that suits the article - and that (IMHO) does not entail lots of line-by-line citing. Look at Adam Cuerden's suggestion above. Perhaps we can pull together a few judiciously chosen "further reading" mini-lists, one for each main section. Absolutely not a citation for every statement, but in the spirit of "if you want to know more about this topic, try the following..." Snalwibma 06:13, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we have to reference it. This covers some material not in the main Evolution article, like Hardy-Weinberg. We don't need to over-reference, but we should reference enough for it to be verifiable, keeping the footnotes combined as much as possible. Adam Cuerden talk 08:05, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Referencing would be the easier route. We can use the same ones from the main article. Just transfer the most relevant ones to here. Thats not cheating ... is it? We could also seek assistance from the group next door. They have already fought the battle over referencing; they may have the best ones in their inventory. If inadequate referencing is our only sin then we are in a good place.  I say grab a few of the better references from next door. For the sections that do not match up (Hardy Weinberg) I'll go out and find some. Should they be accessable on the web or can they simply be journal or book sources? Also, how secondary can they be ... do general text book's count or do we need to cite the original publication? Not to pass the buck; but my knowledge of formating has not improved any. The layout of this article on my student's computers at school looks fabulous. I don't want to screw that up with my lack of skils. So I would rather copy/paste them here (as we did before) and let you guys add them. (Very good, Well written) referencing is a Mickey Mouse challenge--- easy to fix. --Random Replicator 13:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Failed "Good Article" Nomination

message: Ahhh lets just cite our stuff. We can use all German resources. 
:"von dem britischen Mathematiker G. H. Hardy (* 1877, † 1947) und dem deutschen Biologen W. Weinberg (* 1862, † 1937) 1908 unabhängig voneinander aufgestellte Regel über die Verteilung von Erbmerkmalen in großen Populationen, nach der die ursprünglichen" 
:Just kidding. More like ...
:::Statistical inference concerning Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium (Discussion papers / Duke University. Institute of Statistics and Decision Sciences)by D. V Lindley (Author) 
::: Seriously; the leg work has been done next door, we should just "foot-note" theirs. --Random Replicator 14:30, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm adding a few. I'm trying to use popular works and more chatty descriptions to make this article a bit more friendly, though I've leapt straight to Starr and Taggert when it came to Hardy-Weinberg, as mathematics and popular books don't go well together. Starr and Taggert is one of the clearer textbooks, though. Adam Cuerden talk 15:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: I've cut the discussion of this because it was A. off-topic for the section it was in, and B. Not entirely accurate, or, at least, not very nuanced: Both Gould's Structure of Evolutionary Theory and  Starr and Taggert's Biology note that speciation depends on some things about the population as a whole, like a wide geographic distribution making speciation more likely (due to more chance of one subpopulation diverging). Adam Cuerden talk 19:59, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  microevolution/macroevolution 

message: I tried to add  and of course the spacing is not good. Anyone want to try to help?--Filll 18:55, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved it so it's to the left of the overview box, is that what you had in mind? ornis 19:15, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spacing problem 

message: Is it true that the book "The Blind Watchmaker: why the evidence of evolution reveals a universe without design" is misleading about genetic drift and should be removed?--Filll 12:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The matter was discussed; Talk:Evolution. If it's not good enough for the main article, why would it be for a nontechnical version of the article ? - PhDP (talk) 20:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it might not be. I will bow to the experts and consensus. Let them weigh in here and then we will see what we do.--Filll 21:00, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What are we waiting ? Nobody ever discussed the inclusion of the book in the first place, we got a lot of books in the further reading section, many of them of relatively low quality, but it's nearly impossible to get them out. It's really nonsense. -PhDP (talk) 20:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you read below, you will see it was discussed, and there was some disagreement. However, I did remove it.--Filll 21:18, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blind Watchmaker 

message: Just for info's sake: I just linked this page as a "main" page from the evolution section of List of misconceptions, since the "Key points" here seem to be the best match with the points on that list. If the pros here could also check it over to ensure we've got nothing messed up over on that list, that'd be nice. --DewiMorgan 13:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Linked from "common misconceptions"

message: This article contains too many pictures, to the point that the format is difficult to understand. For instance the table of contents is "smooshed" by the picture of the paleontological tree of vertebrates, and the "Evolution portal" blocks the bottom of the "Evolution overview". Wikidudeman (talk) 04:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Format 

message: Added a few more references, following the theme set by Adam. Not over technical with a general commentary by the reference itself. This article has been up a while with no major assults. Such stability is a reflection of a good article. If we have enough references ... seems like all major sections are cited. Then I would like to see the banner at the top replaced with good. --Random Replicator 17:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems there are no objections, so lets ask for another review.--Filll 13:26, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: agreed - if citation shortage was the only concern then we should be ok ... we will see. --Random Replicator 03:17, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  references 

message: Wouldn't it be better to simply have those incapable of understanding the main Evolution article go to the Simple English Wikipedia?
--TotesBoats 11:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been discussed at length before, if you care to look at the archives of this page and the evolution talk page. Nevertheless, Encyclopedia Britannica has 5 or 6 different levels of product. What is wrong with us having 3? Also, Simple Wikipedia's article is much simpler than this one, if you look. This is an intermediate article. This article exists for the same reason that Introduction to Quantum Mechanics, Introduction to entropy, Introduction to general relativity, Introduction to M-theory, Introduction to special relativity and so on exist, as part of the WP effort Wikipedia:Make technical articles accessible. You want to argue about their existence? Take it up with the policy people. However, I would disagree with you very strongly. You might just as well ask, why do we have different textbooks for children in elementary school, junior high school, high school,  college and graduate school?--Filll 13:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why does this article exist? 

message: I saw on the candidate page where the article is already under review.  I've read the article too many times to be objective; but I truly believe it represents quality. All major concepts have been cited; despite the general knowledge aspect of an introductory article. It has remained very stable ... and we (contributors) know that if it wasn't good, those that contribute to the primary Evolution article would of been on it like wolves on sheep. Other than vandal reversions edits are minimal at this point. As the first (at the top link) to Evolution, a featured article, this really needs to obtain at least "good" status. --Random Replicator 03:45, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good article