Talk:Prince's Palace of Monaco

message: Giano, we've got links for Jan Brueghel the Elder (1568-1625) and Jan Brueghel the Younger (1601-1678) - any idea which one hang in the palace? --Joopercoopers 18:48, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At this stag enot a clue! but I have just found we have Luca Cambiasi which was not the name I would have used for him, but it is amazing he is here! Giano 19:02, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Jan Breughel

message: You use the plural form "the Grimaldi", but all your English-speaking sources that I've clicked on say "the Grimaldis". The name itself being "Grimaldi", I would have thought that "the Grimaldis" is probably correct. The look and sound of it is inferior, I know... but wouldn't you say that that's how English forms such plurals? Bishonen | talk 18:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No I would not! One does not say The Medicis does one? One says The Medici.  They are The Grimaldi, not a bunch of yobs living on a concrete estate in deepest middle England. See also usage here Medici.  Giano 18:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Grimaldis

message: Giano, I don't know whether you know about Flickr or not, but theres a bunch of creative commons licensed images here some better and some worse than the article which you might find useful - particularly, perhaps a replacement here for the statue photo (there's a bonus sentry, all in white) and this one is surely a better shot of the Baroque gate? I'm happy to do the uploading/downloading if you think any will be of use. --Joopercoopers 21:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This one's a better composed image of Fontainbleau staircase, but the light's poor. --Joopercoopers 21:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ha! but not half as bad as This one!--Joopercoopers 21:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Poor girl, I  know how she feels, can we use these flickr images? I've not seen them or heard of them before, the Fontainebleau one would be goog - Regarding the Monaco ones I prefer the ones we already have, as I keep meaning to put in a little about the scalopped wall behind the statue - that is important as not many people may know what a scalloped crenelation is Giano 21:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

text: My understanding is that you can use any of the images that are licensed under "creative commons" - for the creative commons by attribution licenses you have to give credit for the image - which could be done by footnote I'd have thought. --Joopercoopers 01:43, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I think the link you provide relates to yahoo's general copyright policy - the images that users upload to flickr are given a license by the user - so the fontainbleau image has this copyright status - I'm absolutely positive as long as the image has a creative commons license, we can use it on wikipedia as long as we abide by the restrictions - non-commercial is fine (we are), by attribution - just credit the author in a footnote. Commons even has a 'uploaded from Flickr' option these days when you go to upload something. --Joopercoopers 12:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you have a look here :Image:Palazzo Monac.jpg I don't think the licensing looks rifght at all Giano 13:15, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The licensing was pretty much there. The thing to do is from the search screen here - click on the image you want ie here from this screen you can do 2 things a. click on the licensing to find out what restrictions might be there - lots of the images on Flickr are copyrighted but you can search for all the creative commons licensed ones if you wish. b. click on the "all sizes" to download better resolution versions of the photos. I've tweaked image's notes a little. If you upload these images to the commons first - I'm pretty sure there's options in the licensing screen that says things like Flickr CC-BY 2.0 (creative commmons by attribution version 2) Hope that helps. --Joopercoopers 16:35, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That particular image is (as of when I checked) licensed CC-BY-ND which means....  BY: "attribution required" (OK) and ND: "No derivative works allowed" (not OK... we have to allow derivative works). So unfortunately we can't use it here. But there are lots of Flickr images that can be used. The things to avoid include ND and NC: "non commercial". There is an active effort to find good Flickr images and bring them over to Commons. Sometimes a note to the uploader of the original image, telling them that their image would be featured in Wikipedia, is enough to convince them to change their license... see for example Canoe livery... the Lake Louise image is from Flickr, I asked the Flickr user to relicense, and they did. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 16:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh! Thanks for that Lar I've been labouring under a misaprehension. Why do we have to allow derivative works? --Joopercoopers 16:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't hold me to this. I don't actually KNOW why we do,  just that we do. But basically, we only want freely licensed works. That includes, for example, the freedom to crop a picture to make it display better or to use an area of it for a particular detail, or to embed it in an article. (that's right, the article is a "derivative work" of the picture!)... See Commons:Derivative works and Derivative work and Commons:Flickr images and Commons:Template:Flickrreview. If there are specific images on Flickr that you would like to use, but are unsure about, ask any admin on Commons for help (I am an admin on Commons and would be glad to help... within reason :) ). I strongly encourage all images (other than fair use ones) to find a home on Commons rather than here specifically, as that way all WMF projects can benefit from them. Also, if you do take an image from Flickr, it's a very nice touch to leave the information on the image as a comment so the original Flickr user knows, as was done here ... that will encourage other Flickr users to share. This may be a bit off topic for this particular talk page, feel free to refactor as needed. :) ++Lar: t/c 17:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Sorry to but in, I understand none of this - which is the illegal image - Fontainebleau staircase or the sideways on shot of the main facade - hopefully it is the staircase as I can replave that one easily? Oh and Lar, thanks for the comments below, if I can get somebody who is not particularly interested in buildings to read to the end, I note Louis II is quite close to the end! then I must be doing somethng right!Giano 18:35, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What are the image names? :Image:Palazzo Monac.jpg has a problem, it's licensed with "no derivative works" which won't work on Commons. Even here, you need to assert Fair Use, unfortunately, or it may be deletion-bait. Better to get the image relicensed. If you really need it, I'd advise sending "anti-Zim" a nice message via Flickr (like the one I sent the Lake Louise picturetaker here) and maybe they would consider changing the license. I can help you do that if you want but you're better at asking nicely than I am... (I find that the user answers maybe 1/3 of the time, the other 2/3 I get nothing) If you meant other ones, let me know their names, ok? ++Lar: t/c 19:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

text: No I've changed the image, Pity because it demonstrated better than the new one the palace as a series of neo-renaissance wings and blocks of varying architectural merit. I shan't ask for permission. I once has a nice lady who alllowed me all the picture I wanted from her site called  (never mind what it was called) then one day someone from the image police arrived at Blenheim Palace and said one picture of a detailed architectural motif was an embarassment to Wikipedia - she (understandably) took the hump, and my source was instantly ended. Pity, but I vowed then never to ask favours of non-editors again, too embarassing. Giano 22:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Flickr

message: I am from Monaco. This the best page I have seen on wikipedia. I have been watching it for long time since it little page. I find it very interesting and easy to follow. I like numbers on pages very good idea. Yves.
::*Thanks Yves - Glad you like it, have you thought about contributing to Monte Carlo it could do with some local knowledge - any knowledge in fact - a page crying out to be edited and improved. Giano 18:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment

message: A nice article, Giano! Spotted a few things that need tidying up and/or correcting. Not sure what you intended, so I'm noting them here for you to handle:
*The caption to illustration 4 says "see illustaration 4". Did you mean "see illustration 5"?
::Fixed
*The Decline of Grimaldi power has "need some refs for all this" in bold. Is it possible to move this to your talk page or this talk page, rather than leave it in the article?
::No that was a memeo to me - left by accident after I found the ref.
*I wonder if it is possible to insert footnote-type links to enable people to jump to illustrations and then back to the relevant text? Could be difficult to do.
::You can try - too technical for me!
*You refer to illustration 21 at some point, when there is no illustration 21.
::Fixed - there was once an illustration 21!
*Jules Cardinal Mazarin doesn't mention any Grimaldi connection - do you have more details for this article and that one?
::No, someone will have to check the peerage - It does explain the connection (roughly) in the text. I don't want to go to off sunject. I will ref the info from where I found it. (actually it was reffed!)
*Finally, the last section has a reference to sentries and a "see illustration 20", when that illustration is of the Prince, not a sentry!
::Fixed
Hope that all helps. Carcharoth 15:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing that out - and complement. Giano 16:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are quick to follow this up! Just one more point - I think you misunderstood or missed my illustration 4/5 comment. I was actually referring to the caption for illustration 4: "Illustration 4: The Princely Palace in 1890 shows clearly a blend of classical facades and medieval fortifications. Due to the modern development of Monte Carlo and growth of flora this view of the palace is not possible today (see illustration 4)." - the "see illustration 4" bit obviously makes no sense. Carcharoth 16:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I could not see the wood for the trees there! Now fixed. Giano 19:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What droll humour! :-) Carcharoth 00:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *I thought it as rather witty too! Giano 07:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Congratulations! 

message: :Due to the modern development of Monte Carlo and growth of flora this view of the palace is not possible today.
This is unclear.  The view is possible, surely; you just have to put a camera there and take a picture.  It will merely look different.  Could someone who knows what is meant by this caption change it from "this view of the palace is not possible" to something that's actually correct?  Perhaps the castle would be entirely obscured by trees, or by buildings - I don't know the answer but someone must.  Tempshill (talk) 23:03, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps the castle would be entirely obscured by trees, or by buildings  - would that mean that this view of the castle is indeed no longer possible? --Joopercoopers (talk) 23:12, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Now reads:"Due to the modern development of Monte Carlo and growth of flora this uncluttered view of the palace is obscured today." Giano (talk) 06:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "This view of the palace is not possible today" 

message: 3rd June 2008 noon - Fire at Palace . Removed here from article. Needs to be properly integrated. Looks like it was a small fire, but may be of interest, or may later be commented on. Carcharoth (talk) 07:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fire at Palace - 03/06/2008 

message: Please, "ironically" warriors, calm yourselves. (In the lead, "Ironically, when the fortifications were relaxed, the palace was seized...." has led to an edit war.)
1. No, it doesn't need a citation.  That idea is simply silly.
2. Yes, we can let the reader decide if it's irony, and we can point out that it's irony.  There is no compelling reason to say or not say it.
3. The original author who wrote 98% of the page put the word in, worked the page to FA standard, and the page was promoted to an FA.  In the case of a "tie," there is no reason to favor a change over the status quo, and the status quo wins because the page is still maintained by the expert editor who wrote it.
Therefore, people, just relax.  Don't go off on wars over a word.  Situational irony and dramatic irony are the most wiggly concepts in English verbiage, or among them, and if "rain on your wedding day" can be a top 40 US and UK hit as "ironic," then something a good deal closer to true dramatic irony can certainly stand in a Wikipedia page.  Geogre (talk) 16:48, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a "fact" and it's unnecessary. It's a subjective opinion and if you want it in, cite it. Yworo (talk) 02:10, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Also, it's not a word which is encyclopedic in the way it's being used here. Did you know that Wikipedia uses that word more than 100 times as frequently as it's used in Encyclopedia Brittanica? That ought to tell you something. The question is, why should we be telling the reader how to subjectively consider the facts? If it's obviously ironic, then the word is unnecessary and redundant. The reader will immediately identify it as such without being told. If it's not obvious, then it's the subjective opinion of an editor rather than an established fact, and would then require citation as so-and-so's opinion. Yworo (talk) 02:17, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hang on, I have to reply to that.  What a foolish argument!  First, perhaps Brittanica needs to change.  There is no conclusion that can be drawn from a usage comparison at all, and only a fool, and I mean that literally and lexically, would do something like count frequency and draw a conclusion.  Secondly, "ironic" can be a fact.  The idea that, somehow, Thomas Spratt's prose guide is going to come from the grave, filled with figurative language, and ban figurative language, is self-consuming nonsense.  Anyone with an ounce of awareness can demonstrate how thoroughly bias and subjectivity exists in a Brittanica account, and how the skin rash one gets in contact with non-empirical language is also an interpretation.  Empiricism and logical positivism are bubbles.  More to the point, the idea that we achieve objectivity by avoiding words that refer to interpretive states is ludicrous.  I am sorry, but yours is a very strained understanding of "encyclopedic" and not even archaic as illusory.  Geogre (talk) 12:28, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Simply, because it breathes some life into prose. As Geogre said, this is a Featured article, vetted by the community in part, for it's prose which was judged to be "engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard". Is there any evidence this consensus has changed other than by your assertion and rigorous interpretation of the criteria? Of course it doesn't need a citation - yours is not a reasonable challenge and the word is hardly a controversy, despite your best efforts. --Joopercoopers (talk) 02:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Yes, the style guideline - apparently being enforced here like the law. One would presume the purpose of the guideline is to improve our articles? Given this is already an FA, surely we must conclude that the spirit has been observed, if not the letter? But thanks for your attention. --Joopercoopers (talk) 02:38, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It still just might be an improvement to remove it. Yworo (talk) 02:44, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It might - but 3 people have now reverted you - what's your bet on that? This is a large project with millions of articles - surely there are more glaring problems than this "maybe" problem?--Joopercoopers (talk) 02:51, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Ironic is justified because as the text explains for geographic and political reasons the palace required fortification long after other palaces did not, yet the moment it belatedly caught up with the times and relaxed its fortifications it was taken for the first time. That is irony - very ironic in fact. The lead does not need to be referenced, and it is silly arguements like this over the obvious that make me glad I no longer try to write FAs. Giano (talk) 10:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you read the text, you would find out why the numbered annotations are there. The whole point of the page is to inform and explain in the easiest possible way. Contrary, to your assertion, I have not found the page at all difficult to maintain over the last few years. Have you considered logging in and opening an account yourself - or perhaps you already have one?  Giano  09:35, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't logged on since 2007, and I'm not about to get involved in the morass that is the world of serious Wikipedia editing just to make a minor tweak to what is frankly a really weirdly written article. 68.170.190.61 (talk) 08:07, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  All that fuss about a word? 

message: Can I raise a few concerns with the article in its current state?
* Some sections (e.g. Princely Palace, Grimaldi fortress, Fortress to palace, 19th century) have very few citations, with large blocks of text unreferenced.
* Some of the web sources don't look like high quality sources; link rot has effected others.
I don't have the necessary sources to help with this, but if it's to retain its current FA status, it does need some loving attention. Can anyone help? Hchc2009 (talk) 20:01, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like any major revisions to this article are going to be fiercely opposed by Giano, who seems to take a proprietary interest in it. He's on record further up that he thinks citations are a waste of time; he seems not to understand the policy. And even if Geogre believes that tone is in the eye of the beholder, it's very clear that the main author here is not a native English speaker. 192.91.173.34 (talk) 03:16, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Silly boy; I'm not playing games with you - who are obviously a sock far too frightened to put you money where your mouth is.  Giano  08:52, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Issues with the article related to Featured Article status... 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071124162024/http://www.gouv.mc/devwww/wwwnew.nsf/1909%24/aaa646e2319b4f09c125706d002f4adcgb?OpenDocument&6Gb to http://www.gouv.mc/devwww/wwwnew.nsf/1909%24/aaa646e2319b4f09c125706d002f4adcgb?OpenDocument&6Gb
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Isn't it something useful? --Renek78 (talk) 18:15, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it’s not useful. When the history and evolution  of a building is as complicated as this one an info box can only confuse or trivialise. Much better to read the lead paragraph which will, hopefully, summarise more accurately or at least hint of the prolonged evolution and mish-mash of styles and patrons. Giano   (talk) 20:30, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds reasonable. Thanks. --Renek78 (talk) 20:13, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why no infobox? 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:20, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: As part of an effort to review old FAs, I'm checking to see whether this article continues to meet the featured article criteria. At the moment, the answer appears to be no. The fundamental problem is that there are numerous paragraphs of uncited text:  many have no footnotes altogether, while others have notes that don't reference sources. Some of the sources that do exist appear unreliable, and non-neutral statements of opinion (like "Architecturally this was an exciting period..." and "The most remarkable room in the suite is...") don't help. If these issues are not resolved, the article may be taken to WP:FAR, where editors will determine whether to delist it. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 19:16, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  URFA