Talk:The Man in the High Castle

message: *Lead - really poorly done.  It doesn't give the reader any real information about the story.
*Plot summary - this covers only the alternative history and none of the plot.  Not acceptable.
*Characters - should be merged into the plot summary, for the most part
*Storylines - that's the purpose of the plot summary
*Story-within-the-story - completely unsourced
*The I Ching as literary device - relevant, but completely unsourced
*Themes - relevant, but unsourced
*Inspirations - usually covered in a background and/or development section
*Reception - sparse, requiring expansion
*Sequel - unsourced quotes
This is a really sad state of affairs. How is it, that after 848 edits by 503 editors over 13 years, we are left with this article?  I'm willing to help out, but there's got to be a way to improve the quality of our articles so that this doesn't happen again. Viriditas (talk) 03:29, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that articles such as this attract well-meaning fans of the work that want to write about it to relive and analyse it, rather than write an encyclopedia article of use to someone who hasn't necessarily read the book. I've started going through and chopping the egrariously unsourced OR, remove unnecessary details and merge some of the smaller sections. Ashmoo (talk) 12:11, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup needed

message: The following fact-rich statement:
*This has been adapted by Frank Spotnitz and is being produced for Amazon by Ridley Scott, David Zucker and Jordan Sheehan for Scott Free, Stewart Mackinnon and Christian Baute for Headline Pictures, and Isa Hackett and Kalen Egan for Electric Shepherd.
is full of BLP references, and could be from a source that has first hand information (not allowed) or is taking it from a source without attribution, negating verifiability (also not allowed). Because it raises BLP concerns, as well as plagiarism or OR concerns, it is moved here. If verifiable, it should be easily sourced (preferably by its original contributing editor).  Le Prof  71.239.87.100 (talk) 19:08, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsourced BLP-type statement moved here

message: Map moved here again, for reasons stated by original editor. Two editors now concur on WP:OR violation (until a reference can be provided to indicate otherwise). I will elevate this as necessary, to prevent the reappearance of original research, on principle, and to avoid the policy-violating precedent that it engenders. See above regarding my status here. Le Prof.  71.239.87.100 (talk) 19:19, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a "wrong" version in the Article again, where someone crudely painted a Mediterranean Sea into it. I don't see how this would benefit anyone. Since the map is explained in detail in the book, I don't quite see problems making a depiction here, as it is basically just a visualization of the data already available. In any event, the map currently (2016-01-05) on the article page is not only WP:OR but also incorrect. Int 80h (talk) 03:19, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  See ongoing map discussion above. 

message: I've removed the section below from the article. It is completely without citation and appears to be an evaluation (read: Original Research) of the author's "errors" in the story. As we aren't citable, out it goes. It cannot return until we can cite someone speaking in terms of the story who points out these supposed "mistakes".
::Goofs
:: The premise of the novel may contain several gaffes on Dick's part. First, the point of divergence is that Zangara assassinated Roosevelt. In our timeline, the attempt happened on February 15, 1933, before Roosevelt's term as President began. In the story, Roosevelt is said to have been President for a year. Either the divergining Zangara postponed his plans by a year, or the author simply made a mistake.
:: The idea that the Axis could subjugate a large part of North America is questionable too. Although US propaganda of the 1940s often portrayed the Axis' plan as literal world domination, there is no evidence that Japan ever sought to conquer and occupy California, in light of the resources necessary to govern an unwilling population. Japan's stated goal was to dominate the Pacific Ocean as its sphere of influence. The conquest notion famously got started from an out-of-context remark by Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto who was attempting to persuade his handlers to leave the USA alone. Likewise, it is now known that the Third Reich's goal was to dominate Europe and avoid entanglements with the United States, a much larger, stronger nation. The level of technology that the story's Axis develop in such a short time is far beyond the capacity of anything in the mid 20th century, suggesting that Dick got his idea of Axis capabilities purely from the "bogeymen" portrayals within US propaganda.
- Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:00, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I've also removed virtually all of the See Also and Further Reading sections, for the same reasons listed above. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 18:42, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Re the Further Reading list: I can see that a number of entries can be safely omitted but the ones with a direct reference to the book in the title (such as Campbell, Laura E. 1992. "Dickian Time in The Man in the High Castle", Extrapolation, 33: 3, pp. 190–201), even though the article isn't cited in the main article, would warrant an entry in any Further Reading list. I've always taken the "Further Reading" concept as allowing the wiki reader to explore further afield if they so wish. Just a thought, and I'm happy to drop the point if this has been discussed and decided upon elsewhere. Perry Middlemiss (talk) 22:26, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

text: I agree, and have restored Further Reading, but not See Also, nor the rightly-removed WP:OR goofs section mentioned above.  We no more need a separate source to tell us that a work with "The Man in the High Castle" in its title is about "The Man in the High Castle" than we would need a source to tell us that the sources cited in the article are about what they are being used for.  That way lies an endless abyss of meta, and several of these are ipso facto archetypal WP:SCHOLARSHIP and serve as reliable sources in their own right.  That said, the encyclopedic references in there could do with more explicit mentions of the relevant sections, such as an entry for Philip K. Dick or "The Man in the High Castle" in The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction, which is currently ambiguous as to its relationship to the article.  —Geoff Capp (talk) 21:00, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Upon reflection with the comments here, I would not oppose those further reading bits that were removed earlier, so long as the material is directly (and I wish to stress that) related to the material. It would be even better if the material were used as reference for the article, so it could be directly incorporated into the article. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 19:28, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: If I had direct access to those sources (and in some cases comprehension of Italian beyond that provided by translation engines), I'm sure a way could be found to fold most of them in as references. I think it would be a good idea to have that as an article goal over time: as people track them down, additional material and corroboration can be incorporated, and the relevant sources can be moved from Further Reading into References as appropriate.  As an interim measure, so that potential sources not entirely lost, I will put the section back (standardizing the formats a little more, though citation templates would be preferable IMHO), and move the questionable entries to this subsection of the talk page—that will leave the information available to editors who want to see if there's useful material there without cluttering the article itself, providing better conformance to the expected editorial standards and policies.  —Geoff Capp (talk) 04:17, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

text: And here's a diff of the article showing the changes from the last version of Further Reading. —Geoff Capp (talk) 04:19, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced section removed 

message: * 
* 
* 
* 
* 
* 
—Geoff Capp (talk) 04:17, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved from Further Reading pending verification of relevance 

message: In the intro it states that the version of World War II in this story is 'longer', and then gives its start and end as 1939 to 1945...which is the exact same length as the real War.  The word 'longer' here should either be clarified or removed.Trilobright (talk) 20:40, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Longer'? 

message: Removed comment claiming that GB dropped nuclear bombs on US army bases in The Grasshopper Lies Heavy. No character in TMITHC states this.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.92.67.130 (talk) 14:05, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on The Man in the High Castle. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100115010708/http://blackstoneaudio.com/audiobook.cfm?id=4699 to http://www.blackstoneaudio.com/audiobook.cfm?id=4699
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 01:44, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article states that "and oddly there are no German military or naval - as opposed to SS - personnel depicted anywhere in the first season"; though I seem to remember that Wegener was addressed with a military rank (, not with the SS rank. If I remember correctly, both Oberst and Colonel were used, I would need to verify. His uniform in the last two episodes would also point that he is in the military.
:The reason there are no SS ranks in the novel is because, in this version of history, the SA got the upper hand of the SS, there was no Night of the Long Knives; as a result, the German High Command was mostly staffed by professional soldiers, as opposed to ideologues, and so would not have made basic tactical errors like invading Russia during the winter.
:Nuttyskin (talk) 22:50, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wegener 

message: Remove page protection please 69.65.90.61 (talk) 16:05, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Þjarkur (talk) 16:10, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 18 May 2019 

message: Baynes and Tagomi finally meet their Japanese contact as the Nazi secret police, the Sicherheitsdienst (SD), close in to arrest Baynes, who is revealed to be a Nazi defector named Rudolf Wegener. Wegener warns his contact, a famed Japanese general, of Operation Dandelion, an upcoming Goebbels-approved plan for the Nazis to launch a surprise attack on the Japanese Home Islands, in order to obliterate them in one swift stroke and rule the rest of the former United States. As Frink is elsewhere exposed as a Jew and arrested, Wegener and Tagomi are confronted by two SD agents, both of whom Tagomi shoots dead with an antique American pistol. Back in Colorado, Joe abruptly changes his appearance and mannerisms before the trip to the High Castle, leading Juliana to deduce that he intends to murder Abendsen. Joe confirms this, revealing himself to be an undercover Swiss Nazi assassin. Juliana mortally wounds Joe and drives off to warn Abendsen of the threat to his life. 69.65.90.61 (talk) 11:45, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. NiciVampireHeart 15:40, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 26 May 2019 

message: I raised this on the talk page of the file itself, where it got no response, so I have removed the map and moved the discussion here. 
In particular, I don't accept the very large Rock Mountain States shown here. It isn't logical and doesn't seem consistent with PKD's vision.
The map creator's explanation at www.high-castle-world-map.com doesn't really help much either: "The role of the Rocky Mountain States is that of a buffer state between territories which are controlled by Nazi Germany and Japan. It could not fulfil this role if Germany would be able to send troops through the territory of the allied CSA all the way west to the PSA border. Therefore Texas and the more western states must belong to the RMS to keep both sides apart from each other."  On the contrary: as a buffer, the RMS is clearly a minimal concession by the nuclear-armed Nazis to the Japanese, using only mountain/desert areas less viable for crop-growing etc. Real world Nazi practice in Europe also suggests that they would impose a RMS without great regard for the traditional national or state borders. Hence it might even be restricted to Arizona, Utah, Idaho, Western Montana and the Canadian Rockies (Eastern BC). Even if the Nazis gave the quasi-puppet CSA by giving it Texas, the CSA still doesn't border the PSA or "threaten" the Japanese.
Grant | Talk 14:21, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed map as exremely speculative & OR 

message: I have added a map which is focused on the setting of the novel, the former USA territory. Please check the novel in case of any questions about the accuracy. In the Google Books edition you can find the respective passages about the PSA and "the South" on page 18, the RMS on pages 42 and 145 and the USA on page 82.Gernsback67 (talk) 17:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of a map of the former USA 

message: Bring the Jubilee is set in the 19th century only in the sense that much of it takes place when the narrator is able to visit it via time travel, where his interference with the actual course of events actually was the cause of the divergence of the world of the novel and our own real one. It is actually set in its universe's version of then-contemporary early 1950s.  This should probably somehow be addressed – as the implication that the novel which Dick said inspired this one was set in the 19th century is not completely correct and involves a convention not employed in The Man in the High Castle, where no one is presented as having traveled through time nor are its alternative facts brought about as a result of time travel.  72.105.79.12 (talk) 02:26, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made the smallest possible edit, which will not expand the passage too much. It is now stating that the novel is set "mainly" in the 20th century. Details can be looked in the article about Bring the Jubilee. Gernsback67 (talk) 19:05, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Bring the Jubilee'' 

message: OCLC given is of a "book club" edition which is almost definitely not the first edition. I am not sure about identification number policy in English Wikipedia, or even if there is one. But if you are supposed to provide ISBN, OCLC, etc., for the first edition, 12870577 is wrong and probably should be removed.  --Nomad (talk) 17:35, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  OCLC 

message: Background
In the novel's alternate history, US President Franklin D. Roosevelt was assassinated by Giuseppe Zangara in 1934 leading to the continuation of the Great Depression and US isolationism during the opening of World War II. Adolf Hitler led Nazi Germany to conquer Eastern Europe and parts of the Soviet Union, but the allies were able to push back Nazi Germany. Meanwhile, Imperial Japan successfully occupied Eastern Asia and parts of Oceania. Imperial Italy conquered northern parts of Africa. As Japan invaded the US West Coast, Germany invaded the American South on the U.S East Coast with the exception of the border states from the American Civil War. By 1947, the US and the remaining Allies surrendered to the Axis, ending the war.
By the 1960s, Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany are the world's competing superpowers, with Japan establishing the "Pacific States of America" (P.S.A.) from the former Western United States and the remaining Rocky Mountain States being a neutral buffer zone between the P.S.A. and the Nazi-occupied American South, and the remaining United States in the North and Mid-Western States. The buffer zone is also part of the remaining United States. In the East, there is a country in the American South below the Civil War Border States. "Nazi America" is a puppet regime in the American South, which respects all races equally, including Jews and African-Americans, but collaborates with the Nazi Government and has Richmond, Virginia as it's capital. In the North, Mid-Western, and the Rocky Mountain States, the United States of America still exists and has Washington D.C as their capitol. The official flag of the United States is the Stars and Stripes.
Hitler, though still alive, is incapacitated from advanced syphilis, and Martin Bormann has become Chancellor of Germany, with Goebbels, Heydrich, Göring, Seyss-Inquar, and other Nazi leaders soon vying to take his place. The Nazis have drained parts of the Mediterranean to make room for farmland, developed and used the hydrogen bomb, and designed rockets for extremely fast travel across the world as well as space, having colonized the Moon, Venus, and Mars. The novel is set mostly in San Francisco. Here, Chinese residents first appear in the novel as second-class citizens. The secondary setting of the novel is the Rocky Mountains States, namely the cities of Cañon City, Denver and Cheyenne. TheNewYorker1776 (talk) 16:05, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: . You just seem to have copied an pasted a section of the article here; it's not clear what changes you want to make. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 03:58, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 28 February 2020 

message: Not being a native english speaker and having read the book, it occurred to me that the used Word_order changes in the P.S.A-Sections. Thus leading to Japanese speaking and thinking subject–object–verb instead of subject–verb–object. This has a general influence on the described P.S.A. culture as even the American inhabitants of the P.S.A. speak subject–object–verb with the Japanese. Is this observation correct and worth a mentioning in the article? Sofafernsehfan (talk) 09:26, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Using of Word Order in writing 

message: I have reverted a series of edits which were inserting discriptions into the Background-section that were not in line with the content of the novel. By searching with the appropriate words in the e-book version of the novel I have found out that the following places, regions and countries are not mentioned only once: Hong Kong, Israel (or Palestine), Alaska, British Honduras, Jamaica, the Caribbean as a whole, Ghana, Nigeria, Pakistan, Ireland. The novel describes the Nazi conquest of the European part of the Soviet Union. The outreach of Nazi Germany to the east thus is not limited to Austria, Poland and Czechia.  The novel does not clarify whether Mussolini’s New Roman Empire is a „republic“ or whether the head of state is still a king from the House of Savoy. The novel does not mention the status of the U.K., France or India and thus is not describing them as fully or partially „independent“. The novel describes that most of Africa is under German control – no African country has gained independence. The idea that „for unexplained reasons“ „most countries in the world are independent“ is completely opposed to the discription in one dialogue of the novel in which it is told that after the war Nazi Germany, Italy and Japan have devided the world among them. In such a world hardly any country could regard itself as „independent“.
When explaining the territory of the Pacific States of America, the text of the novel does not include Alaska or Hawaii in it, not as states, not as territories, not in any other way. It does not mention any resistance movement within the Rocky Mountain States. In the novel the discription of the German-controlled puppet state in the American south is very brief. The only passage, which is dealing with it, can be found on this page in the section „Semi-protected edit request on 29 November 2019“. It does not specify how many former U.S. states are included in the territory of „the South“ and does not name Tampa as its capital. In the novel Washington D. C. is not mentioned only once, not as capital of the remaining USA, not in any other way. While the word „capital“ is not used in this context, it is very clear from many descriptions that New York is the centre of Nazi activities in the remaining USA. To ignore D.C. completely in fact is a literary device, Philipp K. Dick is using effectively to create in eerie atmosphere. The reader is left alone with his/her speculations about the fate of the city in a world where it does not seem to play any role any longer and in which Nazi Germany possesses nuclear weapons.
I have also deleted a link to a world map, mainly because the map does not show the Rocky Mountain States. 
The map of the former contiguous USA is restored. It is focused on the setting of the novel. Gernsback67 (talk) 15:58, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I've noticed a string of edits that appear to be unsupported by the text. The latest being that Israel exists in the world of TMITHC, which seems highly unlikely, though I've not specifically checked the text. As these edits are all coming from the same IP, and the user's comments don't seem constructive, I think concerns about the user's behaviour need escalating. --Shimbo (talk) 12:03, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess it is okay to have a look at this. However in this case finally it was possible to convince the user of the facts. Gernsback67 (talk) 17:15, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong discriptions in Background-section 

message: Plot summary says that Tagomi flies to Germany to rescue Fink. This is incorrect. Hunted down the edit; 22:24, 4 February 2021. Would change it myself, but I have at least two messages saying my IP has been vandalizing, no idea why. If someone would fix it I would appreciate it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.35.116.104 (talk)  
Just finished reading the book and I concur with the comment above. Frink is arrested but never leaves San Francisco. Tagomi frees Frink by refusing to sign extradition paperwork presented to him by the German Consul in SF. Tagomi and Frink never travel to Germany. 162.72.4.203 (talk) 20:10, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect information in the Plot Summary section 

message: I have removed one more map, as reproduced here, supposed to describe the geopolitical world of the book. It is even much more precise than a former one already removed (see discussion above). Needless to say, the book doesn’t contain one tenth of what this minutely precise map shows. And the legend provided, « a plausible world map of the novel », doesn’t change the fact that it is almost entirely speculative. --Sapphorain (talk) 20:46, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  One more map removed 

message: Left « Greater Germanic Reich », never mentioned in the book, as a piped link for « the Reich », as used in the book. Similarly left « Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere », not mentioned in the book, as a piped link for  «  Co-Prosperity Pacific Alliance », as in the book.  Added «  and still compete for the control of South America  in 1962 », which corresponds to what is mentioned in the book (but maybe needs rephrasing). Suppressed «  expanded its colonial empire with occupations of eastern Asia and Oceania », those events not being mentioned anywhere in the book. Suppressed the mention that the U.S. « is ruled by a Nazi military governor «  : no such governor is ever mentioned in the book. Replaced « Canada » by « part of Canada », as at least Nova Scotia is part of the Reich. Sapphorain (talk) 15:56, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Background 

message: While I was rewatching the TV series yesterday I thought to myself that "Hawthorne Abendsen" is a peculiar name and wondered why the author might have chosen it. Then it hit me. Hawthorne Abendsen has the reverse initials of Adolph Hitler. Does anyone know if this is this a coincidence? Does it have any deeper meaning? Has anyone else noticed similar stuff?
Neilrieck (talk) 13:59, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I am rather skeptical, to say the least. If this is not a coincidence it has certainly nothing to do with the peculiarity of the name  « Hawthorne Abendsen ». « Henry Adams »  would have done the job quite as well. With this type of speculations Hugo Reiss, the good nazi, becomes the reverse of Reinhard Heydrich, the bad one… And, but of course: the first name of Reiss is a clear hint that Dick was expecting a Hugo award for this book. --Sapphorain (talk) 21:49, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  A simple observation