Talk:Neume

message: A contributor wrote in the article:
: == Rhythmic interpretation ==
:A controversial subject concerning:
:* episemas
:* romanus letters
:* neumatic breaks
:(I intend to show one hypothetical interpretation...)
Sounds like original research, but may offer some ideas for research into verifiably accepted info.
--Jerzy(t) 23:29, 2004 Nov 15 (UTC)
Not original at all; these words refer to additional markings (horizontal or vertical lines, letters, etc.) appearing in many early manuscripts which have been variously decoded as interpretive marks. This is a subject of ongoing controversy among musicologists, but certainly legitimate for inclusion here, although the fragment above is too small to be useful. I'll see if I can dredge something up about this. --Wahoofive 04:34, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: === Encoding in text ===
Neumes were finally encoded along with other musical symbols in Unicode in the Supplementary Multilingual Plane, in the range U+1D1D0–U+1D1D9. Most user agents as of 2004 cannot display any characters in this range, but in the near future it should be possible to properly encode neumes in plaintext.
𝇐 C clef
𝇑 F clef
𝇒 B square
𝇓 Virga
𝇔 Pes / Podatus
𝇕 Clivis
𝇖 Scandicus
𝇗 Climacus
𝇘 Torculus
𝇙 Porrectus
----
--Jerzy(t) 23:40, 2004 Nov 15 (UTC)
The principle owners of the style need to act on this, though. I'm not sufficiently authoritative in the subject to do so, however so erudite is the subject that a case can be made either for promoting this to a new section "How to display Neumes in online code" or even clear it outwards into a new Meme of its own, quite apart from putting it into practice here.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.123.173.109 (talk) 04:51, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

message: Does anybody know about another form of the podatus, one that looks like an ascending clivis? Additionally, what is the punctum inclinatum used for?
:There's no ascending podatus in standard square notation that I know of.  You will find that shape within a scandicus or torculus, but not in isolation.  It's not in any of my references, including Hiley, Apel, and the Liber usualis.  I'm not familiar with Lilypond, so I don't know why they'd have it, unless it's used to create compound neumes like the scandicus.  The punctum inclinatum just means tilted punctum, and refers to the lozenge-shaped individual notes used to show a series of descending pitches on a single syllable.  The punctum inclinatum is always part of a compound neume and never used as a whole neume by itself.  A regular old square punctum quadratum is used when a single syllable is sung to a single note.  Hope that answers your questions! And by the way, please end your posts with four tildes in a row when editing a talk page.  It makes your name and the time you posted appear. Peirigill 09:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you need a complete set of neumes, use Gregorio. Too me it's also much easier to use than Lilypond (for square notation). --Johannes Arnold (talk) 08:07, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Ligatures in [[GNU Lilypond]]

message: The images at http://www.arts.arizona.edu/mus535/papers/Mozarbic%20Chants.htm seem to have gone missing.
Kay Dekker 23:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, the University of Arizona has revamped their website, and I wasn't able to locate a new location for the image.  It looks as though a professor uploaded it as a teaching aid for a music history course, which may no longer be using the same materials. Peirigill 23:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing images at link

message: Although the etymologic deduction from spirit or breath  (lat. spiritus) (pneuma - πνεῦμα) is very popular in musicological literature concerning Western plainchant, there is no reason to refer to an corrupted etymology. Greek νεῦμα simply means “command”. πνεῦμα is very well known in Byzantine treatises and refers to an additional sign, used together with a sōma (σῶμα)—“body”— in Byzantine Round Notation since the 12th century, when the intervalls were clearly indicated by these combinations.
The same could be said about the whole discussion concerning cheirōnomia which is purely based on vague speculations concerning Latin notation. It is related with a special case of Byzantine notation (mainly through a Kontakarion manuscript provided in Kastoria) in which groups of neumes (Byzantine Round notation) are summarized in one very complex sign which was indicated by the leader of the left or right choir by hand gestures in the Constantinopolitan cathedral rite. This means that the choir followed these gestures which mean a whole phrase. Hence the Byzantine neumes which often transcribe only the construction of a chant piece without writing out the well-known formulas of the melos, seduced some theorists that they call the great signs or hypostaseis synonymously “cheironomic signs”. These are additional signs excluded from the phonic signs (the spirits and bodys) which are the fundament of every “thesis of the melos”. But there is no direct connection between the Late Byzantine and the Kontakarion notation.
If you are talking about the 10th century neumes (the earliest layer of Latin neume notations), I advice to use the rather common terms adiastematic notation or notation «in campo aperto». But note that the forms of the various dialects used in the Frankish Empire, differ very fundamentally. The more analytic notation used by the scriptoria of Lorraine (Metz) does not know the «clivis», because the notatores used two «virgae» in one vertical falling line. And this habit can be found in all French dialects, but not in the German or Alemanic scriptoria who like to use one sign which they called «clivis». 
By the way: I like very much your intention to include also the neumes of Eastern traditions, but your article needs to be elaborated in various directions.
Concerning a lack of the older layer of written transmission I inserted a very fine link to the homepage of Ensemble Ison, which explains the names with the old forms, but also offers some propositions how to perform them (without pretending that these propositions are the only possible way of performance).
If you would make a clear difference between adiastematic and square neumes, and within square neumes a difference between historical and transcriptive forms (used since the 19th century by historical editions of the «graduale romanum»), a lot of questions concerning the forms and its names could be solved easily. I try to be a useful assistant.
--Platonykiss (talk) 13:24, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology ''pneuma - πνεῦμα'' vs. ''neuma'' - ''νεῦμα'' and ''cheironomia'' 

message: This is one of the best articles I've ever read on Wikipedia.  Thank you to the contributors.  Lucas gonze (talk) 02:27, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Compliments 

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thread_title: File:Gregorian chant.gif Nominated for Deletion

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