Talk:Semi-automatic transmission

message: In the UK it's popular on motoring forums, on car selling platforms and sometimes in the press to refer to modern gearboxes like the Volkwagen DSG as "Semi-automatic".  Though using it this way is a misnomer and an oxymoron.  The phrase doesn't really benefit the automotive industry or car owners. Semi is from the latin for half, and is widely used to mean half. Such as semi-detached house. To many people, perhaps older generations, semi automatic will imply that the car will not change gears itself, and only the clutch is automatic. How the idea to label new DSG type gearboxes as "half automatic" came about is open to debate, but perhaps it is used to convey; "not as bad as a traditional automatic". In Europe and particularly in the UK, there is a deep-rooted aversion to automatics amongst car enthusiasts, they are seen as inferior to manual (stick shift) gearboxes because they lack human interaction.  This view is changing, though the motoring press still can't bring themselves to endorse autos, and instead refer to the human interaction elements, which gave rise to the term "flappy-paddle". I think this page would benefit from clarifying that semi-automatic is a misnomer. CarbonPepper (talk) 08:50, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are right CarbonPepper, I'd be more inclined to refer to a "semi-automatic" transmission as an automated manual transmission, as that's more inline with what it actually is... a standard manual transmission, with automated clutch and gear shift control. Even though these automated transmission types can operate in a "semi-automatic/manual" mode, that doesn't make them an "automatic," as automatic transmissions use torque converters, and manual transmissions use clutches. Automated manual transmissions uses a computerized electrohydraulic clutch, while the newer variant (the "Dual-clutch") uses two automated clutches, each operated by Electrohydraulics. These transmissions can operate in a fully "automatic" mode, but that technically doesn't make this an automatic transmission. (Davism0703 (talk) 10:39, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Beware that you are responding to a question from 20 months ago. The user has never added to his home page and has probably gone away.  Stepho  talk  11:39, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

text: @ CarbonPepper I do agree that "semi-automatic" is a relatively poor idiom choice. Since the manual transmission and clutch are automated, would you refer to that transmission type as an "Automatic" still, or would you call it an "Automated manual" transmission? I'd probably be more inclined to refer to it as the latter one.  Davism0703 (talk) 22:41, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi I maintain that Semi automatic is a misnomer and is misleading. It's a colloquialism with different interpretations in different communities. It should be dropped as article title, and put instead as a paragraph added explaining the term and its variable interpretations, citing references, of which there will be few except this page and the journos who have picked up on it since its circulation.   checked a dozen of the 56 linked citations and not one had a use of the word "semi". This article would be better titled "Automatic Clutch".   
How the car achieves different ratios is irrelevant to all but engineers. It's the controls people interact with that matter.  If the user interaction can be zero, then the system is automatic. If the user must interact or the system will fail to fully perform its function (as per buses), then it is semi automatic. Different types of gearboxes that can achieve ratio changes without any user interaction should be given their own sub-classification of automatic gearbox but, they should not be collectively called semi-automatic.  I can't cite references because there are none except this page itself, but the article says it's "too technical for most readers to understand". Hopefully such a change would help. CarbonPepper (talk) 16:26, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-Automatic is a misnomer 

message: Hi folks. The 1940s included some transmissions which seem to be in a grey area between "semi-automatic" and "automatic"; they were not fully automatic in their operation, but intended to make driver inputs not required during typical driving conditions. Therefore, I am seeking input about whether other people consider them as semi- or fully-automatic:
* Hudson Drive-Master, Lincoln Liquimatic: driver input required to use 1st gear, but can be driven as an automatic in 2nd and 3rd.
* Chrysler Vacamatic: Similar to the above, but it uses a 2-speed transmission that can't actually change gears itself. "Automatic" driving is by putting the transmission in top gear, releasing the clutch, and then using the fluid coupling and automatic underdrive unit to drive around (slowly!) without manual clutch or gear shift usage.
Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 03:11, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi , , ,  and . I don't mean to hassle if you're not interested, but just thought I'd ping you about this discussion, in case you missed the notification due to the ArchiveBot's edit soon after mine. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 09:16, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not here to settle bar bets. The terminology is ambiguous and not universally defined. Not all experts agrees on what automatic and semi-automatic and automatic clutch and so forth mean. Wikipedia can't issue edicts judging what the "true" definition of anything shall henceforth be. Tell the reader different sources use the words to mean different things, and clarify as best we can what they are trying to say. Tell the reader there is no right answer. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 07:25, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks Dennis. I agree that useage of the term "semi-automatic" is ambiguous. Perhaps renaming the article would help give it a clearer focus? (please see next section) Cheers 1292simon (talk) 04:09, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  1940s transmissions that are... errr... "sort of" automatic 

message: Hi all. The term "semi-automatic transmission" is quite ambiguous, having been used at various times for unrelated transmissions. This has probably led to this article having large overlap with the sequential manual transmission and automated manual transmission articles, as well as some folks mistakenly adding content about fully-automatic transmissions. 
Therefore, I propose that this article be renamed to Clutchless manual transmission. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 04:14, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't escape the feeling that a "clutchless" transmission will have at least one clutch in its mechanism. Semi-automatic works just fine for me. Eddaido (talk) 00:49, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi Eddaido, I honestly agree with Simon on this one... We can still leave mentions to the semi-automatic transmission name in the article, but I agree with Simon that Clutchless manual transmission would be a much more suitable and fitting term. As he mentioned, there has been much overlap with those two other aforementioned articles, and that is simply due to people being either misinformed or just not knowing the difference between a semi-automatic and a fully-automatic transmission, which seems to be quite a common occurrence on Wikipedia, and other various other websites on the internet. Clutchless manual is a much more "reader-friendly" term, and would be much easier for first-time readers on Wikipedia to understand. Clutchless manual just means that car doesn't have a physical manual clutch pedal or lever... But it will still usually employ some sort of automatic clutch system, and it will not have a manual clutch. Clutchless manuals have been around for decades, with various manufacturers experimenting with them over time, and then slowly evolving into more modern computer-controlled automated manuals (which are a type of fully-automatic transmission, by the way). So, clutchless manuals ARE semi-automatic in their operation (as in, partially operated automatically, and partially shifted manually, by hand), "clutchless" means it has no manual clutch, but it will most likely still have some sort of automatic clutch... Even if the clutch is automated, it's still partially a manual transmission, if the driver still has to change gears by hand. It might be worth mentioning that note in the article, but it wouldn't matter much for a first-time reader, as they'd most probably just want to know how the transmission operates and functions physically, not all the internal mechanical and electronic components that control and constitute the clutch system. "Clutchless" simply implies "no manual clutch," but it's still a manual transmission, as the driver still has to shift gears manually by hand, and it is technically semi-automatic in operation, since it's partially automated (with the clutch), and partially manually operated. Also, the term "clutchless manual" will be a much better and easier-to-understand term for readers of the article, and for most people, much easier to comprehend than "semi-automatic," since many casual readers won't know what the heck that refers to. Sorry, but for clarity's sake, I'm with Simon on this one... Davism0703 (talk) 11:33, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

text: I also read, in the torque converter article (and elsewhere), that many torque converters found in modern automatic transmissions include a lock-up clutch. Automatic transmissions are thus another example of where "clutchless transmission" would be a misnormer.  Sauer202 (talk) 20:02, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed rename