Talk:Zellij

message: I think the claim about the Frumuşeni mosaics in the zellige article improbable or a misunderstanding of the source:
- Huge physical distance: the zellige article claims that zellige appeared in Morocco in the 10th century. Frumuşeni is in present-day Romania, near the Hungarian border. Direct influence seems highly improbable between these two distant regions. Far more plausible to search the source of inspiration in the Middle East or Spain which had strong ties in trade with Morocco.
- Low importance: Frumuşeni doesnt't belong to the great mosaic works of art, it has some local and scientific importance because of its northern location and singularity but it's not on a par with the great mosaics of Constantinople, Venice, Sicily or Damascus. I can't imagine how this poor little northern monastery could be the source of this highly important Islamic art tradition.
- Dating and art school of the Frumuşeni mosaics are controversial. Although some sources claim that they are Byzantine and belong to the 9-10th century the majority opinion is that they were made only in the 12th century for the Catholic Bizere Monastery. Even the existence of the earlier Orthodox monastery remained unproven while Bizere certainly existed. In this case (ie. they are western works from the 12th century) zellige simply predates the Frumuşeni mosaics so they can't be the source of inspiration.
I think you should look up again the source. I can imagine that the author drew comparison between the artistic style of zellige and the Frumuşeni mosaics but in this case you should cite here the whole paragraph so we can establish its real meaning. Zello (talk) 12:46, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frumuşeni 

message: Unless I'm mistaken, this is about the Cuerda seca and not the Zellij. M.Bitton (talk) 15:00, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: @M.Bitton I have uploaded the page I was citing here, this seems a lot like Zellij. NorthAfricanArmsDealer (talk) 15:04, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe it is cuerda seca, I'm not sure NorthAfricanArmsDealer (talk) 15:07, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It may seem a lot like Zellij, just like some Roman mosaics, but the source (that I checked again) describes it as "Cuerda seca" for a reason. The same source is also used in the Cuerda seca article. M.Bitton (talk) 15:16, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to clarify, I believe the word "zellij" in Arabic denotes tiles more broadly or is used more flexibly (maybe native speakers con confirm), but in English reliable sources this term is normally reserved for mosaic tilework specifically, which is what this article is about. (Some sources don't even use the term zellij and use other descriptive terms like "mosaic tilework" instead.) This may be leading to some confusion. Other types of tiles are mentioned in the history section merely for context and historical interest. That said, there is/was mosaic tile on the Kasbah Mosque, like the Kutubiyya Mosque, but also cuerda seca tiles with inscriptions (which are not mosaic tiles); both are discussed in that source, with the cuerda seca tiles being more interesting in the case of the Kasbah Mosque. R Prazeres (talk) 18:10, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting. M.Bitton (talk) 18:35, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just clarifying what the editor may be referring to, and what's in the source. I'm in the process of trying to clarify this in the article right now, hopefully that will make the point moot. R Prazeres (talk) 19:08, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  November 2022 

message: Now that your so-called concerns have been addressed, there is no reason for you to mess with the order (unless you're hoping to see it done in alphabetically to stop this nonsense once and for all). M.Bitton (talk) 23:30, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The dynastic nonsense 

message: Regarding this section, the origin of zellige in Morocco predates what was claimed that it had appeared in Tunisia in the 10th century. Take for example the Andalusian mosque in Fez which was built in 859 AD, during which we can see development of zellige, contrary to the older mosques in Tunisia, say for example Kairaouan mosque, albeit older, didn't have the zellige patterns and the explicit horse shoe arc decoration found in Andalus and in Fez in the mid 800s, it had early forms of Islamic architecture.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.250.237.93 (talk) 03:49, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins (10th to 13th centuries)