Talk:Don Dunstan/Archive 1

message: I'll be significantly adding to this article in the next few weeks / months. If Dunstan is of particular interest to any editors, I'd greatly appreciate any input regarding my additions - he's got a very controversial place in the history books. michael talk 06:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll try and help out. It'd be great if we could have quality articles on both Dunstan and Playford IV, the two most dominant people in our history.--cj | talk 08:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Expansion

message: Intro
#Early life
#Ascent to power
#The Dunstan Decade
##Election Wins
##Festival State
##Social Reform
##Cultural Change
##Electoral Reform
#Life after Politics
#Legacy
Current plan - feel free to make  changes. michael talk 07:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good to me. Rebecca 09:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Making Dunstan into a FAC had been part of my long term plan (after finishing the rest of the South Australian Premiers).  Good start and I will be helping where I can.  This may be down the track a bit but some suitable images would be great and the image of him in pink hot pants on the steps of Parliament House ideal but we may have to dig for them.  --Roisterer 12:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Specially tailored pink shorts if I can remember correctly! A character. michael talk 14:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure 

message: *Don Dunstan, Politics and Passion: Selected Essays from the Adelaide Review, John Spoehr, Bookends Books, Adelaide, 2000 - got it
*Felicia: The Political Memoirs of Don Dunstan, Don Dunstan, Macmillan, Melbourne, 1981 - just purchased it
*The Dunstan Decade, Andrew Parkin and Alan Patience (Editors), Longman Cheshire Pty. Ltd, Melbourne, 1981 - haven't got it
*Playford to Dunstan, Neal Blewett and Dean Jaensch, Cheshire Publishing Ltd, Melbourne, 1971 - got it
*Don Dunstan: The first 25 years in Parliament, Richard Yeeles, Hill of Content Publishing Company Pty. Ltd, Melbourne, 1978 - got it
Any others that you can suggest? michael talk 12:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm. These resources may be of some use if you can track them down. A bit of a search also came up with this book, which sounds potentially useful. Rebecca 13:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cheers, I don't know how easy it'll be to grab the university records, but I'll definitely try to find that book. michael talk 14:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They're not just university records, though - it lists the date and paper and page of all the newspaper articles/biographies, if you (or I) can be bothered looking them up by normal means. Anything else that's really crucial there is quite possibly in the National Library archives, too. Rebecca 01:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've got a feeling I'll have to schedule another trip to the State Library. Oh, well. michael talk 02:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

text: For a critical view of Dunstan, you may wish to check out It's Grossly Improper by Des Ryan and Mike McEwen (there's a copy at the SA State Library).  Additionally, the book A Liberal awakening: the LM story [by] Steele Hall [and others] will probably include critical comments on Dunstan (it's been a while since I read it).  Even if this is not the case, I recommend the book as an interesting document on 70s politics in South Australia.  The State Library also has a copy.  The article is looking great.  --Roisterer 14:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I ended up buying a copy of Felicia (signed too!) and its well worth it, just for the read itself - it'll come especially handy when I get to the 'Dunstan Decade' section. Walter Crocker's book on Playford dedicates an entire section on Dunstan (almost completely negative) but I will see if I can find those two you have suggested. Thanks for the comments regarding the article. :) michael talk 14:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Is there any reason for the particular subdivisions of the Dunstan Decade section? It seems a little strange to have seperate subdivisions for the relatively minor (in the scheme of things) changes with festivals and the role of the governor, and then to cram everything else in an "other section". It seems to me that it might be better to take this chronologically (or to go by the above five-section plan). Rebecca 14:22, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They'll probably disappear. I just need to organise my information, and there's a lot of it. It'll probably end up chronological. michael talk 14:40, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Subdivisions

message: There is going to be a big problem in regard to obtaining images for this article. There are next to none online, and I have no others I can easily access. Any suggestions? michael talk 06:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Flinders University was endowed with the Dunstan Collection in 1988 by the man himself. There is an Online Photographic Database. However, beware of copyright and conditions of access. I think the copyright of most images is held by the Advertiser. The Don Dunstan Foundation might be able to help out if a request is put to them. Also, you could try the South Australiana Database of the State Library.--cj | talk 06:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: I don't think I should include this section. Its contents should be removed or integrated into the rest of the article if possible. There's too much a chance of original research - whether positive or negative. Any comments? michael talk 15:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legacy 

message: "liberal conservative Liberal and Country League (LCL)"—I wonder whether the epithet can be piped to just "conservative". I'm sure that it's the way the coalition would have described itself then, and would today too. That would avoid the cumbersome repetition of "liberal". Tony 04:04, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  query arising from FAR 

message: Wow. Just wow. This article is incredibly detailed and very well written. My congratulations go to beneaththelandslide aka michael. Very well done and top notch effort! Timeshift 12:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this going to go on FAC? I think it's been ready for a while now. Rebecca 00:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just waiting for the peer review to end. Once that's done, I'll tidy up the fair-use rationales on the images and then it'll go on FAC. michael talk 00:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  EXCELLENT article 

message: My personal view that Dunstan is gay, or at least bisexual; I have no doubts whatsoever. However, he never officially came out and declared himself to be so. In fact, when 'It's Grossly Improper' was released, he denied all of it as the work of a cocaine addict (which Ceruto was). As far as I know, nowhere in the books has it outright said 'Dunstan is gay'. I can remember a reference to an 'ambiguous sexuality' in a newspaper article though.
And as for telling me to "read the article", I wrote the article. I researched the article. I read countless books on the man. I don't need an activist coming on here and tooting his horn needlessly and telling me how I need to read my own piece of work. michael talk 02:56, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well there is a contradiction here. As our IP editor friend points out, the article reads "In 1986 he met his future partner, Stephen Cheng, with whom he opened a restaurant called "Don's Table" in 1994. He lived with Cheng in their Norwood home until his death from cancer on February 6, 1999.". If that's accurate those categories belong. If not that bit of article is problematic (or need to reflect any ambiguity in their living arrangement that may be present). WjBscribe 03:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is that Dunstan never openly identified as homosexual or an GLBT activist; in fact, as Michael mentions, he actually rejected such labels in at least one instance. Hence, the categories are inappropriate. However, tagging this article as within the scope of WP:LGBT is somewhat appropriate given Dunstan was significant in homosexual law reform.--cj | talk 03:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Cheng was his partner. His business partner and his companion. But as for a romantic, sexual or whatever relationship, it is simply unknown and ambiguous. We don't have fact or proof on the matter. What we know is that Cheng was a partner and this is mentioned. 'Ambiguous' certainly is the key word here, and if anything could be said, an 'ambiguous sexuality' would be it. I agree with CJ regards the LGBT project inclusion. michael talk 03:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Stephen Cheng was his partner in every sense of the word. Justice Kirby was quite clear on the matter at the NSW launch of the Dunstan Foundation on 28 July 1999. As to tagging, at least LGBT activist is quite appropriate. 150.203.2.85 03:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Kirby is not an authority on Dunstan's private life. And Dunstan was never an GLBT activist.--cj | talk 03:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering Kirby knew Dunstan for over 30 years, I'd dispute that. 150.203.2.85 01:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Philip Adams wrote that he "urged Don Dunstan to publicly profess his homosexuality, so as to spike the guns of gossiping conservatives seeking to destroy his premiership". The gossip was around while he was still Premier, and not just because of the pink shorts! At the opening of the 2002 Gay Games, Justice Kirby said people like Robert Helpmann and "future premier" Don Dunstan frequented well known gay dance clubs such as the Purple Onion in the early 1970s. 150.203.2.85 03:18, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't those refs are unbiased, but we don't need them. Maybe I'm being naive here, but how can a man with a male partner not fit the GLBT category? Rocksong 02:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dunstan's sexuality 

message: I place on the record my disappointment in the deletion of factual material regarding Don Dunstan.
Away from politics, Dunstan had a wide range of interests, which are not incorporated in the article.
If another contributor has concerns about "haphazard" style, I would have thought the answer is to perform diligent rewriting to harmonise the material, rather than merely deleting it as a matter of personal taste!Fitzpatrickjm 09:42, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Such lines as "Whilst he was State Premier, he published a cookery book, inwhich [sic] he advocated the use of chicken." are not of encyclopedic value. michael talk 09:47, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I consider this comment somewhat dismissive, and ignorant of the importance of food and drink in his life-  not only was Dunstan the author of an influential cookery book, he also was an advocate of food education, a restauranteur and a gardener.
Also, other factual material has been deleted.
I consider your actions in deleting factual material are indicative of an unwillingness to consider the role of an encyclopedia to present facts.Fitzpatrickjm 11:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I think the fact that he published a cookery book (and the other stuff) deserves to go back in, and I think "Other interests" is a good heading for it. But I don't understand the point of mentioning chicken. Suffice to say he published a cookery book. Peter Ballard 13:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But all these things are already mentioned in the text. They're already there! michael talk 13:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, they're not! I request that this information be reinserted. Anyone who has read Don Dunstan's books "Don Dunstan's Australia" and "Don Dunstan's Cookbook" will have gained an idea of Mr Dunstan's broad range of interests outside politics. Sadly, neither of these books are cited as references in the article.Fitzpatrickjm 11:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: His cookbook is mentioned. Cooking as a hobby is mentioned. I am aware of 'Don Dunstan's Australia', but it is a book that seems to have little to no publicity. michael talk 11:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Disappointment regarding deletion of factual material

message: Looking at the mishmash of date formats in this article, may I take the opportunity to remind editors of the guidelines found in WP:DATE. --Pete 09:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date formats 

message: Wonderful article.
It might help non-South Australian readers if the article mentioned the strong role the steel and car industries played in the SA economy. This is why SA's unemployment went from best to worst so quickly when high oil prices caused plummeting demand for the large cars made in Adelaide's factories. Those industries never recovered, but withered away being replaced by more competitive goods from Asia.
The claim that the ALP was blameless in this state of affairs is too strong. The ALP was a long-time supporter of the tariffs which sustained the car and steel industries, insulating the car makers from pricing signals that indicated a change in customer preferences and insulating the car and steel manufacturers from the huge falls in manufacturing costs which were attainable with new equipment. So I'm afraid the ALP will need to share the blame with the other parties which failed to move industry from protectionism into a competitive environment in the decades following WWII.
"MPs started wearing items such as shorts to proceedings" is a overstatement. Dunstan famously wore shorts, it was not a trend.
"In 1976, Don Dunstan's Cookbook was published" might be a good place to note Dunstan's love of gastronomy -- one of his wide-ranging enthusiasms, which were a sometimes a challenge for the predominantly straight-laced times. I've got it around somewhere -- let me know if you want the cover scanned.
I was at an event in the 1990s when Don said the sale of the "loss making railways" was mainly because the Commonwealth would pay the huge costs for their conversion from Broad to Standard Gauge. His retrospective claim that it wasn't the recurrent loss which inspired the sale, but the huge capital injection required to keep the interstate railways efficient sounds reasonable and matches the recollections of the Commissioner of Railways of the time in a speech I heard him give in 2006 at a book launch at the Port Adelaide National Railway Museum.
The SAPOL Special Branch behaviour was nothing unusual for the era (Victoria Police's Special Branch was notoriously worse). Don's objection was initially that their extra-policing behaviour was threatening civil liberties, but it became clear that the SAPOL's lack of willingness to accept direction was threatening the preeminence of Parliament. The "pink files" were the initial concern, but in the end it came down to a power struggle between Premier and Police. In retrospect Don's sacking of Salisbury was correct -- the Victoria Police was asked to disband its Special Branch but it was found to be still operating two decades later and to have kept dirt files on anyone of a left leaning.  In NSW and Qld there was no conflict -- those police were a corrupt arm of the premier's offices. That SA was not the same as those two states was Commissioner Salisbury's significant achievement.
:Ah, I only went by my sources, so if you can find ones that support what you have written, you are free to edit the article to correct any mistakes. Cheers, Michael talk 03:06, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Economics

message: Perhaps it's a beat up (after all, this is the FA and not that one), but Oliphant's page notes that he was involved in the 1975 dismissal, and a cause of concern to Dunstan? Can someone elaborate on this? It definately has potential to be noteable IMHO, especially considering how the article refers to Dunstan detaching himself from the dismissal and continue on to win the 1975 state election. Timeshift (talk) 14:39, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See my answer at Talk:Mark Oliphant Peter Ballard (talk) 02:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Mark Oliphant]] 

message: Shouldn't it be listed here? All I can see is mention of the Pitjantjatjara Lands Act 1956. And despite a mention of land rights in the lead, I cannot seem to find mention of them in the body of the Dunstan article. Comments? Timeshift (talk) 01:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The body of the article has nothing on aboriginal land rights during his premiership (it only mentions reforms as attorney-general under Frank Walsh). I don't doubt there were reforms, but we should get this article right first. Peter Ballard (talk) 10:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That was Michael not I. That is why i'm asking. Timeshift (talk) 06:02, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Dunstan's progressive reign saw aboriginal land rights recognised" 

message: When he took over as Labor Party leader, the article says "Eventually, Dunstan won the leadership over Des Corcoran, winning fourteen votes to eleven on the strength of rural and marginal Laborites", and is referenced from a book. Today, Isobel Redmond said that Dunstan took over the leadership, having won by only one vote. Who is correct? Timeshift (talk) 04:33, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Bizarrely enough, there seems to be book sources for both of them. This book supports Redmond's story that it was one vote, but a bit of Google-fu with the cited source here turns up "On the second ballot, with Hutchens and Bywaters eliminated, their votes split five to one in favour of Dunstan, giving him victory by fourteen votes to ...". Unless they're talking about different ballots, I'd go with the one that's here now, since it has more detail about what happened. Rebecca (talk) 05:20, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dunstan's leadership spill margin? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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