Talk:Newton Falls, Ohio/Archive 1

message: Newton Falls is a cute, quaint little town. Living there is enjoyable because it is away from the loudness of a large city. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.40.79.106 (talk • contribs) 21:42, 5 December 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Town

message: Re: "Zip Day":  I grew up in Windham Township, Ohio, which is about 10 miles from Newton Falls, and I've never heard of it.  I can't find a source on Zip Day that doesn't ultimately refer back to Wikipedia.  -SwissCelt 19:10, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Zip Days haven't been around since the late 70s or early 80s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.201.125.59 (talk • contribs) 21:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Zip Day?

message: Who has the ZIP+4 "44444+4444"?
It might be whomever rents "PO Box 4444" (if PO Box number "4444" has been rented).   NO PO BOX 4444 at NF post office.  72.82.180.21 09:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 44444+4444

message: Your response is evidence that you acted with bias and still maintain that way...or you're not understanding what you write.  I'll choose to believe the first.
:1. let me say that it is not the intent of the Newton Falls Leader to spam, violate rules, or upset any external website - including Wikipedia.  Since the Newton Falls Leader doesn't generate an income, I have no reason to force it upon anyone.  Simply, it doesn't matter if one person uses the site or 100,000 people use the site - the Newton Falls Leader makes the same, nothing!  
:2. by definition, "advertisement is defined as: A notice, such as a poster or a paid announcement in the print, broadcast, or electronic media, designed to attract public attention or patronage."  Nothing on the Newton Falls Leader fits that description except for two ads that are posted in exchange for gift certificates as prizes for our Weekly Mystery Question - I guess one could say that those are paid announcements - I like to call them sponsors. Besides, the Newton Falls Leader doesn't get the money, the prize winners do! 
:3. before you jump to conclusions you should ask.  When designing the site I wanted a catchy name.  When I added Leader to Newton Falls the acronym became NFL - then upon doing domain searches the only NFL domain availabe happened to be the .tc - and yes, it is from the Turks and Caicos Islands, however it fits well with Trumbull County and makes nfl.tc quite easy to remember, is this jealousy?  Chastise me because I'm creative, really!  Seriously, what difference does it make what domain name a site has as long as it isn't something derogatory or obscene? You want to make this an issue, but it isn't.
:4. yes, I am new to Wikipedia and hadn't fully read all the rules. However, I didn't do anything against the rules...with the posibility of posting my own site...I will investigate that.  I have read enough to know that what you did was uncalled for and against Wikipedia rules. You obviously feel the same or you wouldn't be trying so fruitlessly to defend your actions.
:5. you call the Newton Falls Leader articles "links to sites with objectionable amounts of advertising." The Newton Falls Leader provides its users with useful and money saving articles.  For example: one article informs users that they can save 50% at a local restaurant and provides the link to do it.  Another article informs users that they can get a 30 day supply of medication absolutely free.  You call these ads, by definition they are not.  Nevertheless, you obviously object to the way the Newton Falls Leader does it, so I'd like to hear how you propose a site provide its users with beneficial information? 
:6. why is it that a site you left intact is ok when it contains photographs of Newton Falls events, yet you want to block other sites who have photographs of Newton Falls Events.  I personally took and posted those photographs.  Again, I'd like to hear your reasons why one site is ok and another is not - if it isn't due a bias.  Also, I'd like to know how you draw your conclusion that my photographs are not an historical pictorial of Newton Falls.  Though you refuse to admit it, these photographs are unique to my site, and make my site a unique extension to the Newton Falls, Ohio page.  After all, they are pictures of the people, places and events here in Newton Falls, Ohio.
:7. furthermore, it is only your opinion that the Newton Falls Leader is not unique - you state, "As I see it, your website is not a unique resource...."  You are entitled to your opinion, but keep in mind the old cliche', "opinions are like bad breath, we all have one and they all stink."  (of course I edited that cliche' for publication here.) If you want to back your statement, show me another Newton Falls site like the Newton Falls Leader - having personally written most of the blocks on the site, I know there isn't another website in Newton Falls like it - I think that makes it, by definition, unique!
:8. I chuckled when I read your PS - you must be trying to win people's favor with a touchy-feely saying?  You are the one that is working to destroy the Newton Falls, Ohio page, not the Newton Falls Leader.  Fact is fact, but of course you don't agree.  However, all I did was to post two links, you took it upon yourself to act with bias and delete them without cause or justification. Again, you aren't much of a watch dog, nor do your actions give much credibility to your statements.  You can't do one thing, then say another and expect that people are going to believe you.  The facts remain that you quickly deleted, not once, but twice links without cause or notification.  You never even bothered to check out the links.  And, when you did, you attempt to call them something that simply isn't true...just your opinion.  Furthermore, for some reason you jumped on these two links, while you left several other links intact, links that in your opinion were worse than the Newton Falls Leader links. Then, you try to justify yourself by destroying links that have been on the Newton Falls, Ohio page for the better part of a year, and probably longer - links left there by you.  Personally, I'd be ashamed to call myself a watchdog.
Words are words, without actions they are empty, meaningless.  Your actions clearly fit the definition of bias, and your words back that up.
Again, let's stop this pointless chatter and allow Wikipedia to decide if what you've done and how you've acted is within their rules or not.   
Thank you - Newton Falls Leader (talk) (contribs) 04:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newton Falls Leader Reply: 

message: *Dec. 31, 2006 first addition of www.nfl.tc link Note IP address has been used again by User:NewtonFallsLeader
*Dec. 31, 2006 edit reverted 2 minutes later by User:Heligoland, edit summary "rv linkspam"
*January 29, 2007 second addition of www.nfl.tc link by User:NewtonFallsLeader
*January 29, 2007 I remove this link, the picture gallery link in the article, and a non-notable "famous resident" with the edit summary "revert linkspam, remove non notable person" 
*Hilarious hijinks ensue (vide supra)
So I told you why I did it when I removed it, I'm not the first to remove it, and I stand by my assertion that it is not an appropriate link. I am done talking with you unless you can cite and wikilink chapter and verse of Wikipedia policy that your edits are OK under or that I have violated. Ruhrfisch 04:50, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Partial History of these edits, I'm done

message: Why is it that when you state opinions they become facts, but when I state facts they become opinions?  
*1. "So I told you..." you never informed me, nor questioned me prior to removing the link to the Newton Falls Leader...to say you did is a blatant lie.
*2. You request a wikilink - but you are the one that cited the link.  Your assertion is that the Newton Falls Leader contains advertising, and I've proven that wrong.  What about that don't you understand?  Simply, if you say something is white and the facts prove it to be black, then it isn't white.  The Newton Falls Leader does not allow advertisements beyond recognition of those who sponsor our weekly "Mystery Question."  To date, we have two such recognitions...that can hardly be construed as excessive!
*3. Maybe in Germany, but in the United States law is that one is innocent until proven guilty.  However, you acted as judge and jury when you removed the links to the Newton Falls Leader without notification, justification, or cause! In your mind, the Newton Falls Leader is guilty as charged, and that's that.  However, the Newton Falls Leader is nothing of what you say, and you fail at trying to say it is.  Furthermore, the Newton Falls Leader meets all Wikipedia guidelines including the ones you insist it doesn't, and you've been unable to prove otherwise.
*4. Again, you respond with rhetoric - what you've written sounds good, but in reality is meaningless.  "I am done talking with you...."  Is this your way of trying to say you cannot backup your actions?  Don't get me wrong, if you recall, I first asked you to stop this fruitless dialog.
*5. You still haven't answered the question of why you deleted links to the Newton Falls Leader, when you allowed other links to exist for a year or more - and continued to leave those links intact even after you deleted the links to the Newton Falls Leader - when by your definition those links actually do abuse Wikipedia rules.  Furthermore, you continue to leave inappropriate link(s) intact. Again, I wouldn't be proud to call myself a watchdog.
Newton Falls Leader 209.33.19.102 (talk) (contribs) 04:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newton Falls Leader Reply: 

message: *1. Edit summaries are a way editors tell anyone else interested in the page what they have done. When I removed the link I left an edit summary that was for you and anyone else interested in this page that said "revert linkspam, remove non notable person" (I hate to tell you this, but the linkspam was your website). There is no requirement on Wikipedia to inform editors specifically of changes to edits they have made, nor do I ever say anywhere that I "questioned" you. Please don't accuse me of being a liar.
*2. I looked at the Newton Falls Leader website just now. I believe that it has more content in it since the last time I looked, but it also has ads. I quote: "Latest Classified Ads: Magnavox 13" Color TV... US$ 25.00... Hohner Accordian... $100.00 or B.O. ... Gateway 19" VX900 Monitor... US$ 25.00... Dell 21" Monitor... US$ 40.00... 1993 Mercury Marquise LS... US$ 2,600.00... More ads like this »»". I think most people would also call the Lipitor, LearningExpressLibrary.com, and other such commercial links ads. Please note that the automobile name is correctly spelled "Mercury Marquis" and I see that the Huck Finn Fishing Derby notice for September 3, 2006 is still posted.
*3. See above. It does not meet WP:EL. If you think it does, refute the points I made with wikilinks, but do not bloviate.
*4. This is Wikipedia. It has guidelines and policies. I have shown by quotations and links that your website does not meet them as far as I am concerned. I am willing to consider your arguments if you can cite Wikipedia policies and guidelines that back your case (both as to why your link should be included and as to what guidelines and policies I have broken). So far you have not done that. 
*5. Two wrongs do not make a right. As I said above, I mostly look at changes, not the whole article. Please also see this, which says "Many times users can be confused by the removal of spam links because other links that could be construed as spam remain on the article. The inclusion of a spam link should not be construed as an endorsement of the spam link, nor should it be taken as a reason or excuse to include another." I never called myself a watchdog, although I do call myself a fish.
I am not sure why I am continuing this. I think it is because I see that you obviously care a lot about Newton Falls, Ohio so I hope that you will add content to the article. We can always use good editors. Take care and have fun thinking up more ways to distract me. I can always use a good laugh and your attempts at argument make me smile. Thanks, Ruhrfisch 21:27, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: One last time

message: Ruhrfisch stated, “I am not sure why I am continuing this.”  That makes two of us, and probably a lot more who read your responses, since it is clear to everyone (well, except you - Ruhrfisch) that justification for your actions exists only within the depths of your own mind, and who can argue with that?  As for accusing me of calling you a liar, I’ve done no such thing...conversely, you are the one who makes statements and fails to back them up, I simply point them out.  Am I to blame if the facts demonstate that your words do not match your actions?
Fact:
# You provided the Wikipedia links...or did you forget?  I have simply, and easily, refuted your arguments, as nowhere within those links does Wikipedia disallow links to the Newton Falls Leader.  Justification for your actions only exists in the realm of your reality, not Wikipedia’s.  It is your opinion, to which I revert to the cliche' I quoted earlier...fact is, Wikipedia rules do allow links to the Newton Falls Leader.  As you have said, “two wrongs do not make a right,” neither does stubbornest make one correct.  
# You claim that notations of your edits somehow suffices for notifying me of your reasons and justification for removing links to the Newton Falls Leader, you are joking, right?  How can you believe that?  Never mind...the depth of your reality – I understand.
# I’m not sure if you are serious, or, are again, joking.  I cannot believe that someone with a Ph.D. does not know the difference between an advertisement and an article.  Okay, I am joking, yes I can believe it.  As a friend, a past president of Y.S.U., once said, “Just because someone has a Ph.D. doesn’t make them smart.”  Hence, I will not try to justify the pictures attached to the articles published on the Newton Falls Leader.  
# Like your failure to justify your actions, you’ve also failed to answer the question I posed to you earlier.  Ignoring something because one has no justification doesn’t make one correct – it’s an old Chinese Prov...no, it’s just common sense.  You refuse to answer, because by answering the question you would have to admit that what you call ads are in fact articles – valuable articles, articles that provide a service to the readers of the Newton Falls Leader – and nowhere within the Wikipedia rules you’ve cited does it say links to websites with articles are not allowed.  Point: unless you can convince someone that an article is an advertisement (good luck doing that) then your argument is moot.  Rhetorically speaking, everyone else realizes that…why can’t you?  
# You cite rules to spam links...fruitlessly attempting to imply that links to the Newton Falls Leader are spam.  I’ve asked serveral pompous professors at Y.S.U., “Where did you buy your Ph.D.?”  You continue to make unfounded, unsupported, assinine assertions based soley on your opinion, with hopes that if you repeat them enough someone will begin to believe you.  Just a clue, no one is.
#  Again, are joking...? Honestly, you can’t believe that a service (classified ads) the Newton Falls Leader provides its users, FREE of charge, constitutes advertising under the Wikipedia guidelines you’ve cited...and you really can’t be serious if you are going to classify that as excessive.  The sad reality, you are trying.   This is another example of the facts v. your actions proving you wrong.  You have failed to substantiate your argument against the Newton Falls Leader, so now you have to dig deep in the hopes of being able to fabricate evidence to support your bias actions.  I haven’t read all the rules, but it is evident that Wikipedia doesn’t have any rules governing who it allows to edit pages.
# You state, “I never called myself a watchdog….” Wikipedia defines “watchdog” as, “Citizens' groups [Wikipedia editors] that monitor and report on government, corporate, and other abuses….” I didn’t define you as a watchdog, you did when you pompously stated, “I have almost 1000 articles on my watch list.”  May I suggest Nootropics -again, please check the facts before you acuse me.    
# In your fruitless attempts to justify yourself, you cite references to another editor removing a link to the Newton Falls Leader before you.  To use your words, “two wrongs don’t make a right.”  (However, three lefts do!)  Just because another person did what you did, remove links without notification, cause, or justification, does not lessen the wrong – lessen the violation to Wikipedia rules, that you’ve committed.
# The more I read your responses the more I chuckle.  How old is the information posted in the majority of Wikipedia articles?  Rhetorical....  Honestly, do really you expect people to believe that because the Newton Falls Leader maintains an historical archive of articles...?  What is Wikipedia if it isn’t a website of historical articles?  Again, rhetorical...!  
# As stated earlier, your actions and your words incriminate you, not the Newton Falls Leader...case and point: Tornadoes is a link you allow to be on the Newton Falls page.  However, if you are to be taken seriuosly, and I know you're dying to be taken seriously, we must believe that you are serious when you insinuate that links to the Newton Falls Leader do not belong on Wikipedia because some of the articles are “old.”  And, if that isn’t obvious enough for you, you state, “I see that the Huck Finn Fishing Derby notice for September 3, 2006 is still posted.”  Rhetorically (simply because everyone else understands), how old are the pictures of the tornado?  Here’s a Wikipedia link for you Archive, Wikipedias definition.  
Finally, you acted with bias and fail at every attempt to show that you didn’t.  You fail to provide any Wikipedia rules that agree with your opinions.  Listing Wikipedia links does not an argument make.  And, your attempts at trying to twist Wikipedia rules to match your imagination, your reality, your unjustified attacks on the Newton Falls Leader are embarrasing – to you, to me, to Newton Falls, and to Wikipedia – talk about being destructive.
I’ll leave you with this old Chinese Prov...ok, I don’t know where I heard it, but in your case it is true...“when one argues with a fool, you both look like fools.”  So, I will no longer engage in your foolishness.  If you cannot concretely demonstrate (that means factually, not your opinion – or twisted view of the facts) defend your bias actions, then I again ask that you stop this senseless dialog and allow Wikipedia to decide this issue.
Hey, let’s see if you were lying when you titled your response, “One last time.”  My bet, the facts will demonstrate that you have nothing to say, but will try to say it anyway – go ahead, I challenge you, show the world that your “one last time” really was your last...you’ll prove me wrong, it will be a first for you, but I’m not proud, I’ll be able to handle it.
Newton Falls Leader  (talk) (contribs) 21:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Newton Falls Leader Reply:

message: I removed External links that did not meet WP:EL criteria again and two "famous residents". One was supported only by a link to his own website Don Lemon. If you want to add him back, start an article on him and link to that please or use a valid third party reference. Jack Kucek ref does not mention Newton Falls, so add a ref that does to add him back. Please see WP:V for more on refs. Ruhrfisch 13:07, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Famous residents" 

message: Not Allow Ruhrfisch 11:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do believe that the link does have a very direct relationship with the article. After all, the article is about Newton Falls, Ohio and the website gives readers and people researching Newton Falls on wikipedia extra  information straight from the source. The website talks about events and other happenings in the town. I dont see how it is indirectly related. Also, Ruhrfisch; if you have not noticed i am providing advocacy on the dispute you are currently engaged in regarding this article. I have left you a message on your talk page.Blah0401 04:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the notice, which I had seen. I know you are an advocate for User:NewtonFallsLeader, but he has not weighed in yet (nor made an edit since February 11th). If you read his Talk page, you'll see he and I were communicating about this and I believe we had at least partly resolved this issue.As for your question, I do not see how the NFL website is both directly and symmetrically related to the city of Newton Falls. I agree it is about Newton Falls, but I do not see the symmetry of the relationship. To me it is like the fan website in the example. The official city website would meet this test and others might, but not this one. I also think it fails to meet criterion #1: "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article." I fail to see what the NFL site provides that meets this (see also WP:NOT, Wikipedia is not a web directory). Please let me know what I am missing that you see.Finally, I guess I am unclear - are you a mediator (neutral third party) or an advocate just for NewtonFallsLeader (and thus on his side - if so who's on my side?) or are you something else entirely? This is my first enounter with WP:AMA, so pardon my ignorance. In any cae, thanks for your help with all this. Ruhrfisch 05:28, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I definitely see your point and i am in fact swaying to not use the link. And i am not on anyones side actually, i am mediator and i am waiting to hear from NewtonFallsLeader, and as an AMA advocate i would like to be thought of as a mutual friend between you and NewtonFallsLeader and i am merely giving my opinion. I am just here to help you resolve the content dispute and thought that when the three of us (yourself, nfl, and I) had our discussion i could use this 'poll' to introduce the thoughts of fellow wikipedians on the matter. If i don't hear from NFL soon i will ask that the AMA case be closed as i will assume that he has accepted not having the link on the article. If you'd like to know more about advocacy just ask me on my page; also if you need help resolving a dispute the AMA can help, since i am part of a dispute now involving you i personally will not be able to handle the case but there are many other AMA members available to help.Blah0401 06:35, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: "specific subpages of the website he runs could probably be used as references—for example the website lists the winners of the 2006 Old Car Show, which is mentioned in the article."
the website is inappropriate as an external link.   — Athænara </font>  ✉  07:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Not allow

message: I have opened an RFC on User:NewtonFallsLeader's apparently inappropriate username, if anyone would like to comment. Ruhrfisch 04:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Comment on Username 

message: Thanks Ruhrfisch!  You've just proven my earlier statements ... this isn't about posting an external link to the Newton Falls Leader website, it is about you being triumphant.  Seriously, you are letting your alter ego get the best of you!
Allow me to explain, I hope I can do this simply enough, I'm not married to the Wikipedia username  NewtonFallsLeader.  In fact, I do not use that name anywhere else.  I used that name here because upon registering the name I attempted to use was taken.  
Not to disappoint you even more, when I read  Athaenara's comment about it being discouraged, I tried to see if I could change it.  However, I wasn't successful and since you insist on being triumphant I am waiting until all of this is settled; I will then delete my account and re-register under a different name ... maybe I'll pick a name with cutsie little dots over one of the letters - like you.  No, I don't think people will get them over the right letter, and besides, I don't think Wikipedia provides usage of those characters anyway!  Simply, it has enough characters ... it doesn't need any more.
So Ruhrfisch, what has come of your statements you've made on NewtonFallsLeader's talk page?  There you state, "So I look forward to a friendly discussion..."?  Further, you state, "If you can relieve my concern through discussing it here, I can stop worrying about it. If the two of us can't agree here, we can ask for help"  You certainly have a short temper if waiting a day for me to respond isn't good enough for you...no, I know, it's that triumphant thing again, isn't it?  Or, did you write that just to make people think you are professional?  Lying isn't very professional.
I must say though, what you've written on [NewtonFallsLeader]'s talk page does make you sound like you are some official Wikipedia executive.  Isn't that what Wikipedia defines as deception?  FYI: Ruhrfisch you are nothing more to Wikipedia than any other user!
But again, thanks for proving yourself.  It makes my case against you that much stronger.  
PS: the url to the Newton Falls Leader's website isn't www.NewtonFallsLeader.tc it is www.nfl.tc - a faint resemblance at best.  And, I don't think posting an external link constitutes spamming! Have a great day  Rührfisch.
NewtonFallsLeader 15:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't read to much into the comments left in this diff.  Those comments were transcluded from the generic template regarding username concerns (see Template:UsernameConcern).  Though the URL may be http://www.nfl.tc/, the title is very plainly "Newton Falls Leader".  ShadowHalo 16:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NewtonFallsLeader Reply