Talk:Royal National Lifeboat Institution

message: May I make some suggestions about layout?
*The lead seems a little heavy on text and  has a lot of info not elsewhere in the article
*History might be better titled Origins or Early history
*In action contains a great deal of history, so might be better called History, to include subsections Dunkirk and Losses
*New section perhaps Current operations to include current activities (lifeboats, lifeguards, flood rescue, combined disaster exercises, etc) and, more importantly, some of the information that makes the lead a bit heavy
*New section or subsection Funding could including bequests (a major source of income), public collections, station-specific fundraising groups, levels of adult and child membership, local and national (SOS) "lifeboat days", corporate funding activities and philanthropic lifeboat-specific fundraising organisations
*New section or subsection Salvage - often a contentious issue (in the public mind) and one that comes up in the news from time to time, sometimes inaccurately
*New section or subsection Publications (eg Lifeboat Magazine, Compass and several others, as well as their website)
*Roll of honour and Famous lifeboat-saviours might be more appropriate as subsections under history?
What do others think? Sorry if I'm treading on anyone's toes. NB I don't have an 'interest' in the RNLI other than as a member and former freelance writer. Tony Holkham (talk) 14:28, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You're absolutely right about the over-heavy lead section.  Your suggestions sound a considerable improvement; I'd go for it if you have time.  By the way, I'm going to remove the citations-needed tag at the top; the tag is 3 years old, and most paragraphs are now adequately referenced.  Hogyn Lleol (talk) 15:02, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm starting the process today of simplifying the lead and reorganising sections into what I hope is a more logical order, so the table of contents should reflect this. I have not removed or significantly altered any content at this stage. There are some new sections which will need filling, and I hope to tackle these in the next few days, but please contribute where you can. Ta - Tony Holkham (talk) 10:12, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganise sections? 

message: A - Can anyone provide full titles for references 10 to 14 so the citations can be listed properly?
B - I know many citations rely on the RNLI's own web pages, so if anyone can provide corroborative independent citations, please do (or give the links here and I'll be happy to add them)
C - Does anyone have a link to the latest (2013) stats for callouts, funding, etc? I could probably find it, but someone may already know.
Thanks, all...Tony Holkham (talk) 19:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Found it and updated article Tony Holkham (talk) 09:28, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation problems 

message: This section looks like it could usefully be expanded. History, stations, training, equipment, images etc. SovalValtos (talk) 04:24, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: By all means, but if you have a lot of information that you want to put in, would it be better to create a separate article as has been done with Royal National Lifeboat Institution lifeboats and List of RNLI stations? This article is quite complex already, and I have been trying to trim it. Tony Holkham (talk) 12:46, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lifeguards 

message: When I have finished transferring all the information in this sub-section to List of Lifeboat Disasters in the British Isles (which needs considerable updating) I propose deleting the list of losses from the RNLI article as the List of Disasters will be a more comprehensive resource. Some of the incidents weren't specific to RNLI lifeboats anyway, so the list is a bit confusing, and the article needs slimming down. 
I'll leave it a while in case anyone has any comments. Cheers, Tony Holkham (talk) 19:43, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Losses 

message: I propose removing the Gallery of pictures as per the template above them. I've checked, and they are all on Wikimedia Commons, so the Commons link should be enough. Any objections? Tony Holkham (talk) 23:37, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Done - 1 June 2014 Tony Holkham (talk) 14:38, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gallery - removal? 

message: The only ref seems to come from the RNLI itself.SovalValtos (talk) 21:06, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that's OK - it's a published, non-commercial source, and I haven't found anything better. Not a reason to remove, IMO. Tony Holkham (talk) 21:43, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flood Rescue Teams 

message: As there is already a reference to the main article Little_ships_of_Dunkirk#RNLI_lifeboats_at_Dunkirk, I propose reducing this section of the RNLI article (first checking all the info is in the linked article/s) by creating a table giving bare details and links. It is an important part of the RNLI's history, but perhaps shouldn't be given such undue weight. Any comments? Tony Holkham (talk) 10:56, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the boats taken by their own crews should still be written about in the article. Add the Clacton on Sea boat and others if sources confirm. Otherwise a table should do as it was a requisitioning of equipment by the Navy, rather than RNLI operation. SovalValtos (talk) 11:11, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Wholeheartedly agree Ramsgate & Margate info should be in there. Didn't know about Clacton. Tony Holkham (talk) 12:00, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I saw Clacton crewing on the page Little ships of Dunkirk SovalValtos (talk) 12:38, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The Clacton station's own website says the lifeboat was under Admiralty control, and doesn't specifically say whether the crew went with her to Dunkirk. It's an open question until we can find some definite source. The flag flown by the lifeboat at Dunkirk was presented to the station by the son of a 1940 crewman, which itself is ambiguous, unless I'm reading it wrong. Tony Holkham (talk) 15:55, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: This forum makes very interesting reading. Tony Holkham (talk) 16:19, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

text: ... and this website says Clacton was RN-crewed. Tony Holkham (talk) 16:24, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

text: ... and more conflicting info on this website. We we ever know the truth? Tony Holkham (talk) 16:29, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The KSH forum will need careful use and consideration of its reliability. I have not read it all. SovalValtos (talk) 10:57, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed - it merely states the information is "Taken from the RNLI Records of Service 1939-1946". Tony Holkham (talk) 11:10, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dunkirk evacuation 

message: I suggest everything on this talk page up to the end of 2013 be archived as the page is heavy with old and mostly resolved discussions. Any comments? Tony Holkham (talk) 13:04, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: No objection SovalValtos (talk) 15:04, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Tony Holkham (talk) 13:23, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggest archiving 

message: I know it may seem pedantic, but (correct me if I'm wrong) Grace Darling's heroic act was nothing to do with the RNLI, so I propose deleting reference to her in the notable lifeboat-saviours subsection. She has her own article, so I suggest adding her to the See also list as a compromise (sort of!). Any comments?  Tony Holkham (talk) 20:54, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Not pedantic at all , rigorous editing is what is needed. No compromises other than consensus. No objection to her being in see also.SovalValtos (talk) 02:31, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: However she and her father war both awarded a silver medal for their lifesaving bravery by (what became) the RNLI.Cloptonson (talk) 08:04, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grace Darling 

message: "Bronze medals were awarded from 1917." Does this mean they were awarded for a time and then the practice ceased, or are they still awarded?
"Frederick Carter (11) who with Frank Perry (16) was awarded a Silver Medal " one between two or one each?
SovalValtos (talk) 15:56, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Y-boats are mentioned only in passing. More needs to be said. SovalValtos (talk) 16:09, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't find a citation for Carter and Perry, but I will look for one. Medals are individual, so it's likely they were each awarded one. Bronze medals are still awarded today as far as I know. There is an article Y-class lifeboat and also Royal National Lifeboat Institution lifeboats so I don't think the RNLI article needs to go into much detail. Tony Holkham (talk) 16:19, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The RNLI's fact sheet says Dorset. I'll look into it. Tony Holkham (talk) 16:26, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the Bridge simulator at Poole? Is it similar to an aircraft links trainer?SovalValtos (talk) 16:24, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here is a link to the simulator which doesn't tell you much more. Tony Holkham (talk) 16:34, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

text:  It does help, as it suggests that it is a vessel's bridge being simulated rather than one over a river! Some of us are a bit dim.SovalValtos (talk) 16:47, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Not dim at all - I can understand the confusion, as one whose techno-grasp is a little advanced from scissors and well short of a deck chair. :-) Tony Holkham (talk) 19:22, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarifications 

message: Might it be useful to add a little, if only a link? There are independent as well as public air sea rescue operations. See http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/AAIB%20Bulletin%2010-2014.pdf which although off topic might be a useful link in to the subject. SovalValtos (talk) 16:01, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The AAIB has its own article. So does the MAIB which is more relevant, and worth adding to "See also", maybe. The RNLI also takes part in multi-service simulated disaster exercises, such as one in the Thames estuary in recent years (can't remember exactly when). Tony Holkham (talk) 16:47, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Current operations could have the independent Air sea rescue operators added. It was their existence which the link gave evidence of; though whether there are any others than the one mentioned I do not know.SovalValtos (talk) 21:34, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: If you would add an appropriate subsection and reference it would all become clear as at the moment I'm not sure what is needed. Does participation with other services come under RNLI operations? Forgive me if that's a vague response, but I'm a bit in the dark on this one. Tony Holkham (talk) 20:34, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the surprise I got from finding there were independent air sea rescue organisations, and the association I made with RNLI and indepentents has lead me off topic. I am quite happy to drop the idea.SovalValtos (talk) 14:15, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interactions with allied services 

message: From this article, at this point in time: "The RNLI is principally funded by legacies (65%) and voluntary donations (28%), with the remainder from merchandising and investment."
I'm curious about the source on this. I was curious about government funding specifically, and I found this: "Our lifeboat service receives no UK government funding and less than 2% of the RNLI’s total funding comes from government sources."
The sentence from this article, using the word "remainder" seems to encompass all funding. It doesn't mention government, so it appears to be inconsistent with RNLI's FAQ.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orblivion (talk • contribs) 00:35, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking at the RNLI's financial review 2013 (ref 23, page 23), "Lifeguarding and other income" accounts for 2% of the income. I imagine this is what is meant in the ref you quote. Money for lifeguarding (which is mentioned in the article) would come from local government, but what the "other income" is, they don't say. The RNLI is clear that it receives no funding from the UK Government. They may receive money from foreign governments, since they sometimes offer training to foreign rescue services. I guess you could look into this further, but it seems a minor point. Cheers, Tony Holkham (talk) 00:56, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Funding - Government not mentioned 

message: Heads-up that user User:128.16.14.238‎ wants to include under the Criticism section that the RNLI's CEO has a larger salary than the Prime Minister (difference here). I have reverted twice and left an edit summary and a message on the user's talk page to explain why their edit is not appropriate. Tony Holkham (Talk) 16:20, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism of CEO salary 

message: It may be of interest to include details about the first ILB and ALB female crew members. The suggested text is below:
"The RNLI accepted it's first female crew member in 1969. 
Grace Darling is often misinterpreted as being a member of a lifeboat crew, however she was not. At her father's request, she assisted him to rescue people shipwrecked on one of the Farne Islands where William Darling was a lighthouse keeper.
The introduction of inshore lifeboats into the fleet in the early 1960s was the turning point on a tradition of male only lifeboat crews. Women soon proved there ability to handle these lighter weight inshore craft, and it was just over a decade before women also joined the all-weather lifeboat crews.
Elizabeth Hostvedt was the first female inshore lifeboat crew member to be accepted in 1969.
In 1981, Frances Glody became the first all-weather lifeboat crew member. She was accepted onto the Dunmore East crew on the Waveney class lifeboat St Patrick. Frances had already caused a stir when she was appointed as Pilot Station Master at Dunmore East, taking over from her father upon his retirement. She was following three generations of Glody men who had held the post."
<Hennessy, Sue (2010). Hidden Depths: Women of the RNLI. The History Press. . Retrieved 30 March 2016>
Rainbowll22 (talk) 11:29, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be a good idea to mention this in the article, though not perhaps in this much detail. There are some other examples, too. Would you like to add something, or would you like me to? Tony Holkham (Talk) 11:45, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for the quick reply. Happy for you to add something. Rainbowll22 (talk) 12:00, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

text: I'd love to add a Women in the RNLI section - how would you all feel about this? Becky Steeden (talk) - 30.03.2016 12.40pm  —Preceding undated comment added 11:43, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:   I see you are both after the same addition. I will add something and we can develop from there. Perhaps we need a new article along the lines of "Lifeboatwomen"... Tony Holkham (Talk) 12:11, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have been beaten by User talk:Tony Holkham to supporting your idea. I think it may be easier to add it as a section in the article straightaway where it could then be edited by others, rather than trying to edit it here. Some assertions may need individual citing with page numbers from the book if that is the source being used. Edit conflicts as well. SovalValtos (talk) 12:13, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: We could include in this the first female station manager (got a feeling this was last year in Wales, but can't for the life of me remember which station), and the first all-female crew (in Wales, it was Cardigan Lifeboat Station). What was the station where Elizabeth Hostvedt served? Tony Holkham (Talk) 12:39, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

text: Brilliant - thanks so much, Tony. I'll go ahead and create a 'Women in the RNLI' section on the main RNLI page and we'll go from there!
Becky Steeden (talk) 12:59, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I've already done that, but feel free to edit as necessary. Tony Holkham (Talk) 13:03, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I've found a contradiction in Atlantic College Lifeboat Station regarding the first female crew member. Can anyone at RNLI resolve this? Tony Holkham (Talk) 13:17, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks Tony. Penelope M Sutton was recorded as the first woman to be involved in an emergency response. Elizabeth Hostvedt was the first woman to be accepted onto a lifeboat crew. More details here <http://historypoints.org/index.php?page=atlantic-college-lifeboat-station> Rainbowll22 (talk) 12:49, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: historypoints does not look like being a reliable source, being user generated.SovalValtos (talk) 13:09, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  First female crew members 

message: I nominated this article for GA status last month and it is turning out to be quite a process. For the rationale behind recent changes (some minor, some structural), see Talk:Royal National Lifeboat Institution/GA1. Tony Holkham (Talk) 10:49, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA nomination 

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replies: text: While I have checked all these and found them available on the archive system, they all need updating to live sources when time. Tony Holkham (Talk) 15:09, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: Facebook, Twitter, and probably not even the Daily Mirror are, for Wikipedia, reliable sources. Fair criticism is justified, but needs to be rational and not knee-jerk. Tony Holkham (Talk) 16:07, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism edits (29 Nov 2019) 

message: It would be nice to have the Operations section before History to give a clear sense upfront of how it actually works (how do volunteer crews of this magnitude receive/respond to calls). Same would go for the lede. (not watching, please ) czar 04:35, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not against your proposal User:Czar but I think you need to give a fuller explanation of the reasons for your preference. Could you give the text you would prefer in the lead/lede?SovalValtos (talk) 05:40, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  &  - The lead could be left as it is (it's a reasonable and readable summary of the institution), but sections moved around without causing confusion, as the contents list will always point the reader to whatever interests them most. Tony Holkham (Talk) 11:24, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yep, mainly suggesting that those two named sections are swapped and to alter any text accordingly (any sequentially referential language, the lede, etc.) (not watching, please ) czar 04:17, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Describe operations before history? 

message: - have you not heard of WP:BRD? "Correct and official UK name"? What does that mean? You should have discussed it here. Tony Holkham (Talk) 12:10, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: What I mean is that in the UK and the former Empire, the official name of those wars is the First World War and the Second World War. The same is true in most of the European countries that particpated, in their respective languages. World War I and World War II are lazy American usages. Emeraude (talk) 17:44, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Whilst I do not think there is any such thing as 'the official name of those wars' the choice does seem to be a particular touchy point between US and English language adherents and as this is an English article the useages 'First World War and the Second World War' seem reasonable.SovalValtos (talk) 18:17, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no case made for either, and there is no "official" name as far as I am aware. The BBC, the RNLI and indeed the Imperial War Museum have used either name, and I have never been aware of any "touchiness" across the pond. However, it's not a major issue, so I will be happy to leave it, though I think it is nit-picking. Tony Holkham (Talk) 18:36, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  World Wars 

message: Hi, please could someone remove the Atlantic 21 picture, as it is no longer an active lifeboat. Or, at least tell me how you delete it.
Thanks SHANNON13ALB (talk) 17:29, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do you SHANNON13ALB think it should be deleted because 'it is no longer an active lifeboat'? See WP:RECENTISM.SovalValtos (talk) 05:24, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Atlantic 21 Picture 

message: It would be worth someone clarifying whether the present day RNLI operates out of stations around all Ireland or just from Northern Ireland (the remaining British territory on the isle). (I am not Ireland-resident.)Cloptonson (talk) 08:11, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Question answered - the list of RNLI stations shows there are stations on the coast of the Republic. I will make it clear in this page that Ireland in RNLI context does include it.Cloptonson (talk) 08:14, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarification wanted - RNLI and Ireland

message: On the basis that Wikipedia is not a newspaper WP:NOTNEWS, I wonder if the new section will stand the test of time. Personally I'd like to remove it right now as I think the whole thing is a storm in a teacup, i.e. as today's newspaper it will be tomorrow's fish & chips wrapper. However, in the interests of building consensus, I'd love to hear what others think though. In the whole of the RNLI's history, does this one little incident merit any mention? 10mmsocket (talk) 15:50, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you, ; in the grand scheme of things RNLI, I don't think it is significant, unless it should become more so, for some unknown reason, when it could be reconsidered. Tony Holkham (Talk) 16:05, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

text: On the contrary, I should say that it very much is a significant event in the charity's history. The RNLI has managed to remain apolitical to the extent - for example - that it is one of the few "British" organisations that survived Irish independence, and still operates in the Republic to this day. Farage attempted to politicise the RNLI's role, and the public response represents a clear rejection of his complaints. Nick Cooper (talk) 21:42, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Migrant crisis section