Talk:1920 East Prussian plebiscite

message: - when did the german “control” over these territories start ? Is Olsztyn “controled” by Poland today?
- Any sources for “german para – military organisations”?
- Allied support for Germany? Didn´t the Allies just fight a war against Germany, why should they support the Germans?
- As Andreas Kossert writes in his book “Masuren” it was a polish condition that all people, who were born in the plebiscite area were entitled to vote, so the Allies did not “allow” to bring 100.000 voters to masuria, it was part of the Versailles treaty – and as far as I know this traety wasn´t very pro – german.
- the plebiscite was supervised by allied troops under control of the League of Nations, shouldn´t this be mentioned
- to be exact, the alternatives were “East Prussia” and Poland, not only “Prussia” ( and following A. Kossert this was also a polish condition )
- —Preceding unsigned comment added by HerkusMonte (talk • contribs) 09:53, February 8, 2008
:Feel free to cite full references that contradict this article and correct it. See WP:CITE and WP:V for relevant policies.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  15:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: Any Sources for Freikorps activities? Don´t mix it up with Silesia.
(HerkusMonte (talk) 09:58, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Was Freikorps limited to Silesia? Pl wiki notes (with some POV) "terrorystyczna działalność niemieckich bojówek" - terrorist activities of German miltia/paramilitary units. This page notes that many paramilitary German units were created and active, some even equipped with artillery, and since autumn 1919 Eastern Prussia received Freikorps units from Baltic States region. In many places Polish activists and meetigns were attacked, an example is given for Giżyck, 17 April 1920.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  18:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Indeed, this would benefit from further research. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  19:08, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Freikorps 

message: Christchurch
Now, after You changed all this stuff, where are the results of the Marienwerder district ?
:::Now added. Every single thing I have added to the page is sourced. Christchurch (talk) 15:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Because they did not get all the things they had asked for from the Treaty. I can dig out the relevant minutes if you wish. But their own books constantly whinge about this stipulation. So its a statement of fact rather than POV. Christchurch (talk) 15:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, its just a claim really. Not properly sourced so that we can access it. Christchurch (talk) 15:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This was a decision of the Versaille Treaty and it related to all areas in Europe where plebiscites were held. POV doesn't enter into it, except when you're saying its wrong. For instance, British expatriates can vote in British General Elections and I should point out that in the recent Polish General Election all those Poles living in Britain were able to cast their votes here. Are you seriously suggesting people who were born and brought up in a place have no right to vote on what should happen to it? Christchurch (talk) 15:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

text: It is a simple established fact. It may be unpalatable, but it is true. The population statistics of the Polish populations eligible to vote show that in a great many areas they voted to remain in Germany. It is crucial when writing these articles to state the facts, not just those things which suit you. I am neither German nor Polish and I feel I can do that because I can cite a great many more sources than I have! Christchurch (talk) 15:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Some questions

message: They would look much better in a table. Any volunteers for conversion? See WP:TABLE for help.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  18:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Technical note on results

message: The article states: The German Government were permitted under the Protocol terms to attach a delegate and they sent Baron von Gayl, former Interior Minister. Yet according to Federal Ministry of the Interior (Germany) only "von Gayl" in that office was Wilhelm Freiherr von Gayl (DNVP) who held it in 1932. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  20:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made the correction according to the letter of the book. Christchurch (talk) 16:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: von Gayl

message: Our article states: ...a plebiscite for self-determination of Warmia (Ermland) and Masuria (Mazury, Masuren) regions, then part of East Prussia and West Prussia respectively.... Yet Masuria article states that it was part of East Prussia. West Prussia for the most part was transformed into the Polish Corridor; hence the entire argument that there was a West Prussian plebiscite is rather problematic.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  23:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am having slight difficulty in finding out whether Marienwerder was in East or West Prussia prior to the end of World War I. (Allenstein is well inside East Prussia). The 1903 edition of the maps volume for the Encylopaedia Britannica does not show the division between the two provinces. Baedeker's Northern Germany (1904, p.164) also fails to show the division but puts Marienwerder in the district of Kulmerland and states that it was "the seat of government for the distict." It seems to be a question as to whether the Vistula was the dividing line between the two provinces, at least at that point. Christchurch (talk) 16:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Thanks. See my comment further up the page. Christchurch (talk) 16:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Both names (Polish and German) are used at "results", so it should have been clear which town we are talking about. The expression "Westprussian plebiscite" (Volksabstimmung in Westpreussen or in Ost- und Westpreussen) is used in German ( as Warmia and Masuria in Polish and as I mentioned before ), sorry for that. It´s obviously not the right term for English Wikipedia.(HerkusMonte (talk) 17:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Both names are used since I added the Polish ones :) I certainly support adding the German names to the lead, just as Polish ones are used (the more the merrier). But in English language I think the best name is the East Prussian plebiscite (and of course, redirects from all other names, which I think I have created plenty of by now).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  17:23, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

text: It´s really not the point to discuss, but I created the "Westprussia plebiscite" side and I used both names, christchurch copied these names to the WaM plebsicite. Don´t be silly.(HerkusMonte (talk) 18:38, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

text: The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the proposal was Move completed. --WoohookittyWoohoo! 10:53, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: West Prussia?

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Nominator's support.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  15:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Is anybody able to create something about Juliusz Bursche? There´s a large page about him on Polish Wikipedia, maybe some basic informations should also be incorporated on EnglishWP.(HerkusMonte (talk) 09:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Will do so shortly.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  14:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I got the stub. I will need more time to get to translating more, however. Space Cadet (talk) 22:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Juliusz Bursche 

message: I converted the results for the Allenstein area into a table. Can someone please check for typos.
I would have liked to to the same for Marienwerder but there is something wrong with the numbers and I have not got time to look into it. Unoffensive text or character (talk) 12:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks; did Herkus address the issue? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  15:26, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plebiscite results 

message: This article needs to be rewritten,
 * It is based practically on one source
 * It contains numerous cherry picked quotes that push one sided POV criticising Polish side, while neglecting German one
 * It is missing information about attacks against Poles by German side during the plebiscite
 * It is missing information about murders on supporters of Poland vote during the plebiscite
 * It is missing information about falsification of the plebiscite
I added thus the relevant tags.
--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:03, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: What I see is a number of sources, and I do not see any pro-German POV here, sorry Molobo. BTW, I am Polish. Tymek (talk) 00:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article needs to be rewritten, currently it is in terrible shape 

message: This needs to be corrected.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:25, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't. Separate subtopics should be dealt with separately. Within the sub-section we use a chronological order, off course. You also "forgot" to include the German side into your chronology. HerkusMonte (talk) 12:29, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

text: It does. Events that led to plebiscite need to be put before the plebiscite and 1919 is before 1920.It's not about "Polish side" or "German side", its about simple chronology and logic of events.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:32, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it was you who moved only the "Polish" version to the top and left the "German" version under a topic named "Propaganda". The article should be structured like "Historical Background - Regions - Polish and German activities - Results. HerkusMonte (talk) 12:45, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article lacks chronological order 

message: A number of recently added claims are based on a source called "Baza artykułów". Maybe I missed something but I couldn't find a properly cited source named that way. HerkusMonte (talk) 11:59, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baza artykułów... 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on East Prussian plebiscite 1920. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070617024837/http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/text/versaillestreaty/all440.html to http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/text/versaillestreaty/all440.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 06:45, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Minakowsky is presented as source in a repetitive dominant position. I miss German reports and considerations. They are probably biased but so are the Polish considerations too, in particular those published in the twenties. After ninety years, we are able to draw balanced conclusions but only if we use the views en presentations of both sides and if possible of the Mazurians themselves. Next to this I miss a description of the problems to travel to the plebiscite area for those Mazurians living in the rest of Germany. Their entrance to East-Prussia was obstructed by Polish milicia, because Poland did not accept the allied decision to allow participation in the voting to all those having a birth place in the area (and these were numerous as emigration had been massive beween 1870 and 1920, and the recent war had brought many temporarily to western provinces). In reaction German national societies organized the Heimatdienst as a ferry service crossing the Baltic Sea and surpassing Polish blockade. Eventually, they could be deducted from the presented numbers. 
84.86.5.217 (talk)User talk 84.86.5.217 13.18  11 januari 2018
This article is in a terrible state of scientific verifiability. On closer inspection it turns out that a lot of the  sources of the section Plebiscite areas are mainly based on a  Polish master's thesis (Minakowsky). In this turn, as evidence of alleged German terror and attacks on the Polish side mainly from a Polish book from 1958(!) (Z. Lietz, Plebiscyt na Powiślu, Warmii i Mazurach w 1920 r., Warszawa 1958, so in early communist historiography, in which the Polish side was all about proving that the "Recovered Territories" where already Polish anyway) were quoted. Certainly not a reliable source. All other "sources" come from Polish propaganda newspapers of the 1920s. I have not found any serious evidence in any other scientific paper on this subject. This whole section should either be given real evidence or completely deleted.
Miniplenty (talk) 20:13, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minakowsky 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on East Prussian plebiscite 1920. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070609160009/http://quellen.herder-institut.de/M01/quellen/plebiszite.pdf to http://quellen.herder-institut.de/M01/quellen/plebiszite.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090620052547/http://www.poland.pl/archives/interwar/article,,id,284106.htm to http://www.poland.pl/archives/interwar/article,,id,284106.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130722212004/http://www.herder-institut.de//uploads/tx_himmat/003_2_003_Plebiszite.pdf to http://www.herder-institut.de//uploads/tx_himmat/003_2_003_Plebiszite.pdf
*Added  tag to http://www.kurekmazurski.pl/?art=6852
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071106034615/http://dziedzictwo.polska.pl/katalog/slide,Mapa_powiatow_malborskiego_i_kwidzynskiego_z_naniesionymi_przedstawieniami_wynikow_plebiscytu_sporzadzona_11_VII_1920_roku,pid,265405,gid,265311,cid,1138.htm?sh=1 to http://dziedzictwo.polska.pl/katalog/slide,Mapa_powiatow_malborskiego_i_kwidzynskiego_z_naniesionymi_przedstawieniami_wynikow_plebiscytu_sporzadzona_11_VII_1920_roku,pid,265405,gid,265311,cid,1138.htm?sh=1
*Added  tag to http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/classroom/LFigs/Fig8.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080203174401/http://www.historycy.pl/Strony/Artykuly/2003%2003%2004/Znaczki%20pocztowe.html to http://www.historycy.pl/Strony/Artykuly/2003%2003%2004/Znaczki%20pocztowe.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:55, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I regret that Volunteer Marek doesn't want to accept that religious affiliations were decisive in the develoment of national consciousness. Catholicism fostered a Polish stance, not particularly among German speakers but certainly among those which spoke (a) Polish (dialect). Why did Marek remove my objective and informative contribution, proved by the statistics of the plebiscite. Why the report of a well informed and critical English observer was skipped. Has this lemma to be a Polish nationally correct text?
Next to this, why he and others only cite 'Polish official statistics' and neglect 'German official statitics' at the same time. Both nations misused the same numbers by giving them a nationally favorable interpretation. However, the numbers themselves could not be changed and a critical observer will not be deceited. He/she can only go in geographical details by studying critically the German statistics. 
Again: Mazurians were, being Lutheranians, deeply connected to the Prussian dynasty. Notwithstanding the germanization imposed by the authorities of the German Empire after 1870, Mazurians did not want to reverse this process by which they became politically German citizens. I don't deny that some exceptions existed but it would be incorrect to point at those as Polish national heroes bravely resisting German terror. Far more than nine out of ten Mazurians resisted becoming Polish in 1921. In 1945 and after, when they were hold back in their homelands, they could freely become Polish nationals but  they declined this honour and emigrated to Germany after some ten years. They and their offspring, some 200.000, are living in present day Germany .....  
You may compare this with the Alsatians which became Frenchmen although they were without any doubt originally Germans before the 19th century. They accepted fully to be frenchified.  
84.86.5.217 (talk) 16:39, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are Mazurians Poles and if so according to which definition? 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:56, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Several subsections on this page date as far back as 2008. There is scarecly any page on Wikipedia where talk pages don't have sections get archived & removed when in a situation such as these right here. What is the cause for lack of archiving?
2A02:1210:1CA7:D700:A159:42EA:362B:5952 (talk) 16:21, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  No archiving?