Talk:March of the Volunteers

message: I've added a link to "The March of the Volunteers". I've found it on one Chinese music portal. It was very hard for me, because my Chinese is really poor. May be you that reading this topic are Chinese and can offer a better link, may be even official source?
Cmapm 03:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Link

message: The correct pronounciation for "xie3" is indeed "xie3" and not "xue4". This is not an oversight as the lyrics were meant to be colloquial and therefore accessible to the masses; "xie3" is preferred pronounciation used in Mandarin nowadays, while "xue4" is employed (usually) as a component of a highly-specific, polysyllabic unit. --Taoster 17:34, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That was not at all helpful. Next time, give the character you're talking about. — LlywelynII 04:31, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Xie3

message: Xie3rou4 (or xue4rou4) seems to be transcribed in the text as "xie4rou4". Is this an intentional attempt to mix the two pronunciations, or could it be a small slip-up? Rōnin 17:22, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: xie4 is absolutely wrong. xie3 is used in colloquial form and xue4 is used in literal words. Being a literal term here it should be xue4. -✉ Hello World! 05:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transcription of 血肉 

message: in his 1949 tour to Tchaikovsky Hall in Moscow. In Chinese AND English. Very cool. I've only listened to a partial sample, does anyone have a full recording? -- 我♥中國 07:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heh, [[Paul Robeson]] sang this 

message: I removed this statement from the opening paragraph:  written in the midst of the Second Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) - later text of the article clearly states it was written in 1934 and was used in a 1935 film, so it could not be written during a war that, according to the dates given, didn't start until 2 years after the film's release!  --Canuckguy 18:57, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some people consider the war to have begun in 1931 with Japan's invasion and occupation of Manchuria. The dates were possibly added in a later edit? -- Миборовский 19:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  When written 

message: Altered lyrics (1978-1982) is not March of the Volunteers. It may be national anthem at that time. But it is not the idea of March of the Volunteers which call for people not willing to become slavery to wake up to fight for free. If you want to put the Altered lyrics (1978-1982) at a place, maybe you can create an article national anthem of PRC, and it can be listed as one of national anthems. But it's not March of the Volunteers itself. March of the Volunteers does not equal national anthem of PRC, and national anthem of PRC does not equal March of the Volunteers. Only when March of the Volunteers is legally adopted as national anthem, then it is national anthem.  -建港 (talk) 19:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That is part of the history of the anthem titled March of the Volunteers. Its lyrics are different, but it should be included in this article. The title of the section, "Altered lyrics", specifically said it's not March of the Volunteers. --24.63.227.223 (talk) 19:14, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Altered lyrics (1978-1982) is not March of the Volunteers 

message: ===Zhong Hua Min Zu===
'Zhong Hua Min Zu" clearly refers to "The Chinese Race/Ethnicity", not the Chinese Nation. 75.11.163.127 00:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Zhonghua Minzu does precisely refer to the Chinese nation and very pointedly not to the Chinese ethnicity, which are the completely separate Hanzu. You're confusing nation with nation-state, which (to be fair) is very common problem when dealing with modern China. — LlywelynII 04:31, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

text: I have searched "March of the Volunteers site:.gov.cn" through Google. By adding some keywords the following ones seem "official" but different:
#http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/ljzg/zgjk/3579/t17846.htm
#http://www.gov.cn/english/2005-08/16/content_23523.htm
Based on s:Template:PD-CN, the official translation is probably in public domain.--Jusjih 06:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The first link is dead. They apparently redid their site. The new version of the page is here. This is a separate page, although its content is precisely identical to your second link. — LlywelynII 04:51, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

text: No matter which version better captures the feel of the song, the 'previous translation' would still be the official translation provided in the government 's website. Thus we need to stick to it. (Note that the subheading reads "Official lyrics")Jerch 16:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The "official" translation is not as correct as the user translation. It is also not as dramatic and sounds silly at times. Just because it's "official" does not mean it should be used. Afterall, it seems like the translation is based on a 1930s movie featuring the song (Songs and Daughters in a Time of Storm), which is outdated. If you compare the movie translation with the "official" version, you'll notice the similarities (a link given in the External links section). Therefore, I recommend the user translation. You can remove the link to the official translation, or just leave it alone. --24.62.238.122 16:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: True enough. In that case, I believe that it would be better to include the user translation in a separate category. The current version is nothing but misleading, claiming a user's version to be 'official'. I might as well translate it into French, and say that my version is the 'official lyrics', French translation.Jerch 03:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved the reference link to the characters side of the table.--24.62.238.122 13:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Worth pointing out that the guy who gave us the "official version" gave two links to two "official" versions. — LlywelynII 04:51, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

text: Someone keeps removing the Robeson lyrics, without providing an explanation on the talk page. In fact those lyrics should be regarded as a semi-official translation. Robeson did NOT write those lyrics but is simply the most famous singer of it. They were written by a Chinese Communist and included in a Chinese folksong book in english. The book Tales from Camp Wo-Chi-Ca goes into more details about it and can be used as a source. --Gary123 (talk) 06:40, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be included. It should, however, not be treated as semi-official, demi-official, semi-demi-official, or anything else with anything similar to "official" anywhere near it. Edit: Seems to have been made by Liu with some feedback from Tian. So... kinda official. — LlywelynII 04:51, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

text: Edit: If we can find room for it. Right now, the page is kind of falling off the right side, so alt lyrics would need to go in a footnote or just settle for a link. Maybe if we can introduce more line breaks... — LlywelynII 17:59, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Translation

message: 'Zhong Hua Min Zu" clearly refers to "The Chinese Race/Ethnicity", not the Chinese Nation. 75.11.163.127 00:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Zhonghua Minzu does precisely refer to the Chinese nation and very pointedly not to the Chinese ethnicity, which are the completely separate Hanzu. You're confusing nation with nation-state, which (to be fair) is very common problem when dealing with modern China. — LlywelynII 04:31, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Zhong Hua Min Zu

message: I know that there is an official English  translation in PRC. Can anyone find it?
:I have searched "March of the Volunteers site:.gov.cn" through Google. By adding some keywords the following ones seem "official" but different:
#http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/ljzg/zgjk/3579/t17846.htm
#http://www.gov.cn/english/2005-08/16/content_23523.htm
Based on s:Template:PD-CN, the official translation is probably in public domain.--Jusjih 06:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The first link is dead. They apparently redid their site. The new version of the page is here. This is a separate page, although its content is precisely identical to your second link. — LlywelynII 04:51, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Official translation

message: I hope you consider and accept my translation of the original (and current) Chinese anthem. This translation (in my opinion) better captures the feel of the song without deviating too far from it as in the previous translation of the fourth line.--141.213.198.142 02:23, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No matter which version better captures the feel of the song, the 'previous translation' would still be the official translation provided in the government 's website. Thus we need to stick to it. (Note that the subheading reads "Official lyrics")Jerch 16:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The "official" translation is not as correct as the user translation. It is also not as dramatic and sounds silly at times. Just because it's "official" does not mean it should be used. Afterall, it seems like the translation is based on a 1930s movie featuring the song (Songs and Daughters in a Time of Storm), which is outdated. If you compare the movie translation with the "official" version, you'll notice the similarities (a link given in the External links section). Therefore, I recommend the user translation. You can remove the link to the official translation, or just leave it alone. --24.62.238.122 16:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: True enough. In that case, I believe that it would be better to include the user translation in a separate category. The current version is nothing but misleading, claiming a user's version to be 'official'. I might as well translate it into French, and say that my version is the 'official lyrics', French translation.Jerch 03:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved the reference link to the characters side of the table.--24.62.238.122 13:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Worth pointing out that the guy who gave us the "official version" gave two links to two "official" versions. — LlywelynII 04:51, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: English translation - hope you accept 

message: A user removed it. What does the community think? It was moved to the main box with the official lyrics. I agree it doesn't belong there. But I think it does merit inclusion within the article, just in a different section.
[COPYRIGHT PROBLEM REMOVED]
--Gary123 (talk) 03:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone keeps removing the Robeson lyrics, without providing an explanation on the talk page. In fact those lyrics should be regarded as a semi-official translation. Robeson did NOT write those lyrics but is simply the most famous singer of it. They were written by a Chinese Communist and included in a Chinese folksong book in english. The book Tales from Camp Wo-Chi-Ca goes into more details about it and can be used as a source. --Gary123 (talk) 06:40, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be included. It should, however, not be treated as semi-official, demi-official, semi-demi-official, or anything else with anything similar to "official" anywhere near it. Edit: Seems to have been made by Liu with some feedback from Tian. So... kinda official. — LlywelynII 04:51, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

text: Edit: If we can find room for it. Right now, the page is kind of falling off the right side, so alt lyrics would need to go in a footnote or just settle for a link. Maybe if we can introduce more line breaks... — LlywelynII 17:59, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Should the Paul Robeson lyrics be listed?

message: Here's another unofficial version:
[COPYRIGHT PROBLEM REMOVED]
From Rob Chi's linked article. — LlywelynII 09:09, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: More alt lyrics

message: Is it in public domain? Tian Han was dead in 1968, Nie Er in 1935. Considering that this song was created as a theme song for a film, it should be copyrighted by the authors or some company. The lyrics will go to public domain in 1968+50=2018.--刻意(Kèyì) 09:49, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: umm... It's PD. see 1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.117.233.162 (talk) 02:35, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: NO, your page says the other way around.--刻意(Kèyì) 21:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, he's wrong, and it's wrong: it still thinks the anthem is unofficial (it's not). See the Wikisource entry. — LlywelynII 12:59, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyright

message: I do not understand why the English translation of Chinese National Anthem is "March of the Volunteers". Verbatim it should be "March of the troops of the righteous and brave".    —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.60.37.226 (talk) 21:33, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Righteous and Brave Troops are volunteer troops, as opposed to conscripts. That said, most of the actual fighting was done by conscripts. Apparently both terms describe people fighting the Japanese occupation of Manchuria in the mid-'30s and the English translation "volunteers" was published by the film company's in-house magazine at the exact same time as the original Chinese title. — LlywelynII 04:31, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: "Volunteers"

message: I think it bears mentioning what dialect specifically is the anthem sung in? If I'd hazard a guess it would be Mandarin - I don't know Chinese but I'm well aware there are several, vastly different dialects of it. If that is the case is there also a Cantonese version? --TheHande (talk) 07:25, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Standard Mandarin, albeit with some "folksy" elements. — LlywelynII 04:51, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which dialect? 

message: 1) Regardless of whether the definite article is included in the page name (although it eventually should be), the name of the song should be correctly formatted in the lead sentence: as a the title of a song, it needs its quote marks and, inside or outside the quotes, it needs its article as a point of grammar.
2) It is also officially known as the National Anthem of the People's Republic of China. In that use, it is a proper name and not a song title: that use should not include quote marks. If it were to become the name of the page, that use should not include the definite article.
3) I know it's common, but  remains a badly-done template that should be avoided where possible. Simplified and traditional Chinese are not separate languages; pinyin certainly isn't.
4) More to the point, per , we should not include the Chinese in the lead sentence at all. It's given in the infobox immediately to the right and it's glossed thoroughly in the Chinese infobox below that. There is no good at all in cluttering the lead with a third (badly-formatted) repetition.
5) I'll fix this, but the Wade is badly done. The tone numbers aren't essential—people did generally leave them out—but there's no such word as iyungchün. It always included the dashes between the separate characters. — LlywelynII 05:14, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead sentence

message: We can't just have the lyrics' columns set to the pixel and let everything textwrap at different places. That defeats the entire point of parallel translation. I've fixed that but I've done it by forcing the current columns, which means it's going to involve some potentially ugly/annoying scrolling for some readers. Solutions:
* Cut the traditional characters. This is a PRC-related page and (while nice) it's not essential.
* Turn the traditional characters into scroll-over text on the simplified characters.
* Turn the pinyin into scroll-over text on both sets of Chinese characters.
* Introduce natural line breaks: There are only a few very long lines and they can be naturally broken at their caesuras.
The last one is my preferred answer, though I don't know how important the current line breaks are to the Chinese. Is this considered poetry at the level where introducing new line breaks is "getting it wrong"? or is it fine when there are space considerations?
Once that's fixed and the lines are shorter, the formatting will automatically get much tighter. That will be a different kind of ugly. The solution isn't pixel-by-pixel width formatting (which is terrible for this) or even forced % of the page (which is better), but simply using some right and left margin padding to give the text a little room. — LlywelynII 17:52, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Formatting

message: Removed the non-working HK source claiming the image of the song's lyrics was from "the Canton Gazette": it was "the Diantong Bimonthly" or "Pictorial", the in-house publication of the guys who made the film. Also removing Laikwan Pang's Building a New China in Cinema: The Chinese Left-Wing Cinema Movement, 1932–1937 as a non-. It seems like it would be good place to look for sourcing and expansion but the cited page (3) had nothing relevant on it at all and, if the author can't even "The March of the Youth" (青年進行曲) separate from the song that became China's national anthem (as here), it becomes questionable if he knows what he's talking about at all. — LlywelynII 22:01, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, that's my bad math. His concerts at Stalingrad on June 13th and Moscow on the 14th, 1949, were part of the 150th anniversary of Pushkin's birth. Here's the (much-later discovered) recording of his Moscow performance of "Chee Lai!" — LlywelynII 19:29, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Dubious sources

message: I think I've nailed down Nie's contributions, the orchestral adaptation, and the movie's premiere. Still not quite sure about Tian's lyrics. Liang Luo is alone in saying that the poem was composed in January 1935 rather than in 1934: a) that's quite specific to just be a mistake and b) she has pretty thorough treatment and sourcing generally. Perhaps Tian Han began work on it or finished the first drafts in 1934 and his last work was done in January of '35. (That still wouldn't be the final version of the lyrics, though, since another source has Nie Er slightly modifying the lyrics to fit his tune.)
Also not sure which edition of Denton Pictorial  the ad with the lyrics showed up in. I've seen sources claiming both. Is there a digitized copy of them up on the Chinese internet somewhere? (Also, according to Liang Luo, there was apparently a full-page ad in the Shanghai Shenbao in May. It seems to have been a different ad but I'm not sure.) — LlywelynII 07:01, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Dating

message: This anthem is historic and should be respected, but people don't analyze history but senses. Eternal defiance is moronic. We should modernize our anthem because we may get that permanent defiance. Can defiance be a permanent national value? And if so are you certain that you will enjoy that defiance when it will come? You can study philosophy to understand that transient urge if standardized might cause future havoc.
"Everybody must roar defiance." Ok, but for how long? Are you certain that people aren't emotional? Most people are emotional and not analytical historians. Then it will be so late...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:4105:DB00:C8DD:F971:F636:AB2F (talk) 03:48, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  The eternal defiance 

message: There is a discussion at Talk:Hong Kong#edit request July 8 discussing the copyright status of the US Navy Band recording used in this article. This has come up because Hong Kong is currently a featured article candidate. To page watchers, please comment there if you have anything to add. Thanks, Jc86035 (talk) 07:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright status 

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot (talk) 09:06, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Is the phrase "purged to death" sensical in the sentence "When Tian Han was purged to death during the Cultural Revolution in the 1960s, the song was briefly and unofficially replaced by "The East Is Red", and then reinstated but played without lyrics". It is not only confusing, but in combination with the lead of the linked article on purges, it gives the false impression that Tian was executed.
I would suggest a rewrite along the lines "In the 1960s, when Tian Han was denounced and imprisoned during the Cultural Revolution, the song was briefly ..." 2A0A:A546:70AB:0:27EE:D659:3B38:3EAA (talk) 14:12, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done. ch (talk) 05:03, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Purged to death"