Talk:Jean-Jacques Dessalines

message: Also, it refers to 'black people' and 'colored people'. What is a 'colored person'? Ashmoo 03:45, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Colored? 

message: The statement "Dessalines, who had been born a slave, held a grudge against French people" is simply not true. Dessalines was a general fighting the French Empire. He fought the French soldiers (LeClerc, Rochambeau) sent to enslave Blacks in Haiti, not the French people. You cannot necessarily extrapolate that he hated "French people". At the congress declaring Haiti's Act of Indepence, Dessalines asked each of the assembled generals to pronounce a vow to forever renounce France; to die rather than to live under its domination; and to fight for independence with their last breath.
Dessalines and others responsible for the 1805 Haitian Constitution 1805 Haitian Constitution eliminated distinctions of color: All Haitians were to be "Blacks".
CLR James, the historian, reveals in his book The Black Jacobins, that three Englishmen present at the congress that proclaimed Haiti's Independence were instrumental in bringing about the massacre of the French on the island. The Englishmen were acting as agents of Great Britain; they wanted to put a permanent wedge between the Haitian people and France in order to hold on to their trade monopoly and advance their ambitions in the hemisphere. They told Dessalines that England would trade with Haiti only “when the last of the whites had fallen under the axe,” writes James.
“Those civilized cannibals wanted to drive a wedge between Haiti and France to break all possibilities of unity.... This is one of the most infamous and unjustifiable crimes in this wretched history.”
Haiti continued to be threatened with enslavement by the Europeans; so a military preparedness had to be mandated to protect the new nation. Also, labor had to be regimented because the infrastructure of the country had been devastated by a long twelve year war for Haitian independence.
I doubt if merchants from France were eager to trade with Haiti after the revolution. Also, Thomas Jefferson imposed an embargo against Haiti. France and the U.S. refused to recognize Haiti as an independent country. Thomas Jefferson according to Julius Scott, the Afro-American and Caribbean historian at the University of Michigan remarked "confine this disease to its island" in urging the British to stop trading with Haiti.
The educated class in Haiti were the "light-skinned elite"; the majority of other Blacks had no education and were recently enslaved.
If Dessalines was "reviled by generations of Haitians", why approximately one hundred years later would they name their national anthem after him? The main author's comments just don't make sense. If you have a basis for your comments, provide a source.
Damballa 21:28, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rebuttal to biased comments 

message: Shouldn't this be title "Jaques I of Haiti", in accordance to naming policy? After all, Napoleon Bonaparte's articles is titled "Napoleon I of France"...
-Alex, 12.220.157.93 00:38, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say yes.  Do you want to rename the article? 69.112.248.103 04:14, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say no, because his last name is generally better-known than his first name (which is not the case for Napoleon), as evidenced by the naming of the national anthem (La Dessalinienne) and a city after him. Funnyhat 22:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Titling 

message: The phrase "heads will roll", according to several results in a google search originated with Hitler in the 1940's.  Interestingly, according to Andrew Selsky, the Associated Press' Chief of Caribbean News, the phrase was used by Dessalines in 1802:
:"...One voter told me on election day that heads would roll and buildings would burn if Preval didn't win.
:"It is a phrase that resonates in Haiti. Army Gen. Jean-Jacques Dessalines uttered those words when he led a rebellion against French troops and colonists in 1802. Many of the French were decapitated, their homes torched. "
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-5611684,00.html 
Just thought it was interesting and maybe there is a place for it in the article. 69.112.248.103 04:14, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heads will roll 

message: Sentences such as: "The black people and other minority groups all fought against this system that he was imposing upon them." are incomprehensible. How are blacks considered to be a minority group in Haiti? This does not make any sense.
There are not many sources given and the view of Dessalines wildly diverges from that of many Haitians and scholars. Reasons for this should be given. 15:30, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overall quality of Dessalines article 

message: Why is Haiti spelled Haïti (with accent trema on the first  "i" on this page ? 00:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling of the country Haïti vs. Haiti 

message: I would ask that the last two sections have been filled by an essay. I would sugest that it should be deleted, it does not read as a encyclopadia or at least, move it to the talk page.Francisco Valverde 07:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove last two sections 

message: Publishing this article itself from a bias source is bias in itself. The article in itself is a political statement, if it is not - please provide the basis. 
Why should offended Afrogenics not respond to an article that is insensitive and bias to the legacy and contributions of Jan Jak Desalin (Jean Jacques Dessalines) to humanity? Why should African people accept the vilification of their leaders? Why should the African people of Ayiti (Haiti) accept the minimization of their victories over white terror? Why should these questions not be raise in an intellectual forum/platform like Wikipedia? 
If Wikipedia provide a platform to those who propagate suppositions, extrapolations, misinformation and factual errors as facts - Why should those responding to these historical errors, white supremacist views use another platform to expose their racist, naive or misinformed views?
If Desalin directed the same wholesale massacres of whites/slave owners as they committed against the kidnapped/stolen Africans of Ayiti - they would not be a race/skin color problem in Ayiti today.
If Desalin was vicious as some white historians portray him to be, the corrupt niggerized/affranchisized elites of Ayiti would not have the ability today to prevent Ayiti from celebrating its 200 year victory over slavery and white supremacist terror. White supremacy have killed and terrorized more Afrogenics in Ayiti and around the world than Desalin ever did to the Europeans.
Today American, European policy makers refuse to let the Ayitian (Haitian) people control their destiny, but at every turn Desalin gave safe passage to Americans living Au Cap Haitien or Jeremie (check the history books, see for yourself) when he had a chance to slaughter them. White supremacists and their agents/their restaveks in Haiti do not offer the same to the African masses of Ayiti.
Why does French brutal and genocidal policies against the Africans of Ayiti are not called massacres but Dessalines reactions their brutality are. Dessalines used the same tactics that the French military and French beneficiaries of slavery use against him and his people. 
Where did Dessalines learn these tactics? What was Dessalines experience on the plantation under French hegemony? Should we measure brutality only in color gradation?
How many Europeans were killed, massacred or enslaved by Desalin? How many Africans were killed, enslaved by the whites of Ayiti? How many Afrogenics were kidnapped raped and killed during the slave trade?
How many Afrogenics/Africans/Ayitians must be killed by the French and other appendages of white supremacist terror for it to be a holocaust? How many Africans must be killed, enslaved, terrorized for it to be said that the whites/slaves owners of Ayiti were full of hate, they hated black people or were anti black.
Was Jan Jak Dessalin more hateful, more brutal, more savage and more uncivilized than the French, the Spaniards, the British and the Americans in Ayiti?
Who is in a better place to define terror – Rochambeau, Bonaparte, Las Casas, the children of slave owners or the descendants/children of Boukman, Makandal, Dessalines, Toussaint Louverture, Padre Jean, Charlemagne Peralte, Defile, Benoit Batraville or the millions of African who were kidnapped, tortured, terrorized, labored and died to produce wealth for western capitalist interests?
--Kwameawoyo 19:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who should define White systematic terror in Haiti 

message: I've done a rewrite, adding a lot of information on Dessalines' life up to the end of the Revolution. The post-revolution sections still need a lot of work. The Revolution section can be fleshed out more - especially regarding the "brutal tactics" used by both Dessalines and his opponents. There should be something on how his actions were viewed by Haitians and French at the time of the Revolution, as well as how they are viewed today. I have left the NPOV tags on until these issues are resolved. Jwillbur 20:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major rewrite 

message: Dessalines was either born in Africa OR in Haiti. please rewrite. --Sensodyne 17:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early Life: Birthplace 

message: Did not Dessalines give the order of the massacre on the French whites on Haiti in 1804? If this is true, should't it be in this article? --85.226.42.9 (talk) 16:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Massacre on the whites of 1804 

message: At least twice in the article, Dessalines is said to have won the Battle of Crête-à-Pierrot, but the description of the battle (a siege of 20 days in which the French sized the objective) indicates a French victory, as does also the article for the battle itself. The French may have suffered such high casualties as to make the victory too costly, or perhaps the resistance of Dessalines' troops inspired later victories (like the Alamo in the Texan revolt against Mexico), but the battle can't have been a victory for both sides. I note here the contradiction, but do not have the knowledge to edit this or the Battle article; some editor with the requisite expertise should do so. MayerG (talk) 06:31, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who won the Battle of Crête-à-Pierrot? 

message: Omg who wrote this page???? Dessalines did not become the leader under the 1801 constitution - that was Toussaint Louverture's constitution (Haiti was still part of France and was called Saint-Domingue then ). He made himself emperor under the 1805 constitution. 
I do not have time to correct this page right now but I hope someone in a very near future will.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aucun (talk • contribs) 11:17, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oh My God no

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: No cricitism topic, no sources mentioning his massacres and the repercussions of that massacres at all. If we cannot have a criticism topic to a genocidal leader what more could we have in Wikipedia? They tried to alleviate the blame here, when saying that the executions "were against slave owners" (Like it was justifiable anyway). He ordered the execution of virtually any white person, being men, women, or children. Only priests and artisans were spared (Because they were useful). So i don't think it's too hard to make and balanced and non biased article about a genocidal, especially when the article actually describes him in a positive light. This is absolutely disgusting. Liberal bias in Wikipedia may have some influence in allowing it until now. Genocides here are denied and downplayed!Sawyersx (talk) 19:48, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biasedness 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: The graph of the population of the Dominican Republic appears to have a few discrepancies. In the caption below, and indeed in the graphic itself, the chart appears to show population changes from 1798-1897, which spans a full century, so seems a reasonable (rather than arbitrary) period to display. It covers 100 years beginning from before the Haitian revolution to show the effects the genocidal campaigns had on the Dominican population. Under the first bar, however, the date "1789" appears rather than the "1798" stated in the caption and on the left of the bar graph. Is this a transpositional typographical error? Or was census data not available for the year 1798, so the 1789 figure was used instead? So why not change the caption and graphic to "1789-1897"? Albeit, 109 years is a strangely arbitrary span of time, but it wouldn't be a significant offense in the grand scheme of things. Furthermore, a sentence in the text of the article (same "Genocide" section) mentions the population of the Dominican Republic was 175,000 in 1789, which further adds to the confusion. Is this text a mistake for using the "1789" date rather than the "1798" date? If all the dates are correct, then why does the bar graph disagree with the "175,000" population figure? The first bar in the graph clearly shows a population figure below 150,000, perhaps in the 120,000-130,000 range. Thus, though this bar is labeled "1789" which corresponds to the date mentioned in the text, the population figures do not match up. So which date is wrong? Are both dates wrong? Is one of the population figures wrong? Are both? Is the bar length wrong? Someone please edit to fix this discrepancy. Thank you.66.91.36.8 (talk) 06:16, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no evidence supporting the claim of this massacre. This is right-wing Dominican nationalist is attempting to rewrite history and portray Haitians in a negative light. Oaurelien (talk) 09:28, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Graph in Genocides Section 

message: Dessalines didn’t kill any French women. It wasn’t the truth. He ordered to kill all who think to maintain slavery on the lands of Haiti.
At the same time he asked to protect the health personnel, the engineers. it was not a question of the extermination of French whites. moreover, Dessalines had many white friends and advisers. stop making him look like a jerk.
we can understand the fact that he said no to slavery, no to colonial exploitation, no to racial segregation, you wanted him dead. But it's time to stop your bullshit about his memory. 107.123.33.23 (talk) 15:41, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rectification