Talk:List of rulers in Wales

message: I see there has been a necessary trimming of the list, though it was necessarily a bit arbitrary. But the article is still largely unsourced and desperately needs work. I think we need the following:
1. Citations supporting each king mentioned, preferably from RS relating to each individual kingdom. This should include marginally-supported individuals where RS suggest they probably existed and were kings, though they should be marked as "possibly legendary" if the RS says so.
2. Some recognition of the historicity debates about kings and legendary individuals based on RS on Welsh royal genealogies.
3. Possible inclusion of kings who are legendary described as such where RS do so.
It's a big job, but thanks to the contribution of the aforementioned YouTuber, there are lots of eyes on this page. Any volunteers? We could probably start with step 1, as that will form the stable basis for step 2 and 3.
Any volunteers to take on particular kingdoms? I'll have a go at Brycheiniog to start with. Claim your polity below.... Boynamedsue (talk) 08:32, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: List of legendary kings of Britain and List of legendary rulers of Cornwall existence, may justify legendary rulers being a separate article, rather than included here alongside those more verifiable. But I am not an expert on the topic. DankJae 01:30, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

text: @Boynamedsue the Dictionary of Welsh Biography ({{cite DWB) sources are used in most of the historical Welsh Royalty articles, although I'm told a potential old source seeing as it was published in 1959. Would the DWB references suffice for the majority of Gwynedd Kings and many other rulers? Cltjames (talk) 19:55, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I finished the Bartrum 1993 references. Wonder about how to approach the rest, because his book only goes to the year 1000. Guessing DWB is good enough. But wanted to ask about duplicate entries... Would it not make sense to remove duplicate entries and create new headings based on multiple Kingdoms, e.g. Rhodri Mawr- Gwynedd, Powys & Ceredigion. Gruffudd ap Llywelyn- Wales. Bleddyn ap Cynfyn- Gwynedd & Powys...? Cltjames (talk) 05:42, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: . I finished your Bartrum reference, then I added DWB to almost complete the bunch, with {{citation tags for the monarchs who are in neither references. Then I removed duplicate entries for the Kings listed under multiple Kingdom adding a new ==Wales section, WP:BOLD I believe. Please, tell me what you think (I believe the article works better like this)? No need to revert, the edits make sense, we can talk, and I can amend the Wales entries if you feel something is wrong... Cltjames (talk) 15:58, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Way forward - Task force? 

message: ::@Richard Keatinge The problem is there were many Petty kingdoms which did have significance at the time. You just have to look at the map used and see Ergyng which technically isn't in Wales, but then another border example is the Kingdom of Ewyas which is a part of Monmouthsire. Or in Wales, Tegeingl which was a Lorship. Therefore if the article wants better clarity, it should be able to specify in the list that it is a King list of Kingdoms not just rulers, thus ignoring the petty Kingdoms, or even better add another half dozen or so smaller kingdoms and Lordships to the King list. Cltjames (talk) 20:50, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see Template:Welsh kingdoms for full list of Kingdoms. It would mean a lot more work to add all the Kingdoms, but it should also be seen as necessary to add the full list of medieval rulers in Wales. Cltjames (talk) 06:03, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you would be good enough to start a discussion on Template talk:Welsh kingdoms to find a consensus on what should be included. If you can generate a consensus of experienced editors in favor of your large expansion, then it would be reasonable to do it. Richard Keatinge (talk) 12:12, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, thanks. So going back to what I said about Ewyas being a good inclusion as a petty Kingdom with historic importance (seeing as it was the supposed hiding place of Glyndwr for the years before he died), the former Kingdom was a realm divided between 2 countries, and is now represented by a border town in England (Ewyas Harold), however, part of the Vale of Ewyas is in Monmouthsire, Wales. Then, some petty Kingdoms such as Ergyng and Pengwern are now in what is England. So, the question is, would the current border dividing Wales and England be the cut of point for rulers in Wales? Or, is this list about Welsh rulers who were once in a Kingdom incorporated into the original boundaries of Wales, e.g. Pengwern a family seat for the Kings of Powys, today in Shropshire, England...? Cltjames (talk) 14:54, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the talk page for List of rulers in Wales. To discuss petty kingdoms, a more appropriate place would be Template talk:Welsh kingdoms or perhaps Talk:Wales in the Early Middle Ages. Please take this discussion there. Richard Keatinge (talk) 15:16, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes OK. But, I'm suggesting the petty kingdoms be added here to the list of rulers article, what is your opinion on that ? Furthermore, there isn't a consistency between the template and the article... Should they not be the same lists? Because the template has numerous other realms within Wales which have been exlcuded on the list of rulers article. Cltjames (talk) 15:30, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Petty kingdoms

message: Not to throw another spanner in the works, but it's worth noting that most of the rulers listed in the article predate heraldry – Owain Gwynedd's arms are definitely anachronistic attributed arms, for example. Also, describing arms as belonging to 'kingdoms' and 'lordships' is potentially problematic as they generally belong to individuals or institutions. 
The arms don't necessarily need to go, but they should be checked. Other images could also be used to illustrate the article, such as the remains of Llys Rhosyr, associated with the Aberffraw princes of Gwynedd, or Strata Florida Abbey, founded by Rhys ap Gruffydd. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:00, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @A.D.Hope yes, your right about arms being attributed much later. I was going to find references for them, that's all. But, some are definitely from the era, e.g. royal houses. But if you have an idea about better imagery, then please go ahead. Cltjames (talk) 19:20, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coats of arms