Talk:Alfred-Maurice de Zayas/Archive 1

message: My family has been expelled from to-day Byelarus. I haven't authorized Mr de Zayas to be my advocate and I have never read any his pro-Polish text. Xx236 13:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: His hobbies can be removed easily- be bold, after all. Criticism of de Zayas from reputable sources can be added, of course. This search.com link, an apparent mirror, has "Some views by Alfred-Maurice de Zayas are controversial, eg. his support of James Bacque's book. His work for the Bundeswehr has been criticised by German left." If the information on that page was taken directly from the WP article at some point, I have not found which version it was taken from or why it was removed. Valid criticism from reputable sources can be added, of course, keeping WP:BLP in mind. Olessi 15:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  He is an advocate of "the right to homeland" as a universal human right. 

message: I have known Alfred de Zayas for ten years, before that I knew him through his books.  I have never heard a word that was anything other than supportive of the civil and human rights and  the human dignity of ALL groups.  His belief in the universal application of human and civil rights has caused (for example) the Turkish right wing to hate him (because of his stand on Cyprus and the Armenian Genocide), probably some other fanatic nationalist groups as well.
He is a man of high moral values and his lifetime work for the good of the oppressed should be praised and held up as something that should be copied by more men of letters. His courage is unique, his energy astounding.  
All the best,
K C Schemm, Jr
It is absolutely not true that de Zayas defends David Irving.  De Zayas takes a position of principle which applies across the board to all persons who have different views from ours..  He defends the principle of article 19 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which guarantees the right "to seek and impart information".  De Zayas is against the misuse of criminal law for purposes of censorship and intimidation..  In America the right to freedom of expression is guaranteed in article 1 of the Bill of Rights.  This is a precious right for every democracy.  Surely it is not the function of lawyers to legislate on history.  Nor is it the function of judges to punish individuals for "crimes of thought" or for the expression of dissident ideas.  The whole purpose of the right to freedom of expression is to protect the right of those with whom one does NOT agree.  Such laws criminalizing open discussion of historical events are simply totalitarian, and Professor de Zayas, the long-time secretary of the United Nations Human Rights Committee rightly criticises the totalitarian trends in our "politically correct" societies.
 
The author Kryzstof cites some abstruse sources to defame de Zayas.  Why does he not cite the brilliant reviews of his books in the American Jourtnal of International Law, Cambridge Law Journal, Netherlands International Law Review, etc. ?  Has Kryzstof read any of de Zayas' books?  Or articles in the American Journal of International Law, Harvard International Law Journal, Criminal Law Forum, Archiv des Völkerrechts, etc. ?
By the way, de Zayas was absolutely correct and has been proven right in his pointed criticism of Goldhagen's racist theses, which by now have been discarded by all serious historians and sociologists. Best wishes, Dr. Thomas Gertner, attorney-at law, Bad Ems (Germany)
Another self proclaimed specialist on Wiki ? Nothing new, there are millions of attorneys in the world. Why didn't 
"Why does he not cite the brilliant reviews" Because we seek neutrality and criticism has also be mentioned. I could also point out how revisionists sites have brilliant reviews of him, this should bee mentioned as well. As to "racism of Goldhagen" and Irvings "crimes of thought"(Holocuast Denial)-no comment needed. Interesting that nobody answered my questions:
Does De Zayas write about ethnic expulsion plans made by German Empire in First World War against Jews and Poles ? Also does he write about first modern expulsion of people, which took place in Germany in 1885 and was aimed against Poles and Jews under orders of Bismarck ? How much does he write about the effect Pangermanism had on plans to exterminate and expell Polish people from German held terriotries both in WW1 and WW2 ? Does he mention the influence Selbstshutz played in final decision to remove German minority and how German discrimination of Poles and colonisation of Polish territories that took place in Imperial Germany. Is he interested only in European people, or did he write about the genocide of Herero people as well ?
--KrzysztofM 07:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  DeZayas a fine man 

message: Irving has sued Deborah Lipstadt. It means that Irving cares for freedom of speach for Irving, but not for his opponents.
Irving's methods are the same as used by Soviet genocide deniers. 
Xx236 08:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irving and freedom of speach 

message: My mother used to tell me as a little boy that it is wrong to lie. If you lie on earth or try to hide the truth it is only a matter of time before the truth of any actual occurrence will come to light. It might take 10 years or it might take 100 years, but as sure as night is day the truth shall prevail. Before God you can never hide the truth. It is wrong to throw slander at people of good character who only seek to bring the truth to light about any injustices of history. I admire Mr de Zayas who is a man of integrity and I am extremely grateful for his contribution to the truthful history of Europe as a whole. Sean.
In his writings about history of Europe as a whole does De Zayas write about ethnic expulsion plans made by German Empire in First World War against Jews and Poles ? Also does he write about first modern expulsion of people, which took place in Germany in 1885 and was aimed against Poles and Jews under orders of Bismarck ? How much does he write about the effect Pangermanism had on plans to exterminate and expell Polish people from German held terriotries both in WW1 and WW2 ? Does he mention the influence Selbstshutz played in final decision to remove German minority and how German discrimination of Poles and colonisation of Polish territories that took place in Imperial Germany. Is he interested only in European people, or did he write about the genocide of Herero people as well ?
I am really interested about that.
--KrzysztofM 15:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slander against Mr DeZayas 

message: Are employed by UN ? Is it special position or is he just one amongst many.
--KrzysztofM 16:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many layers 

message: Nemesis at Potsdam (Picton Press, Rockland Maine, 6th revised edition, 2003. German version Die Nemesis von Potsdam, Herbig Verlag, Munich, 14th revised and enlarged edition 2005.
"His is a lucid, scholarly and compassionate study. Most pertinently he insists that we deny what the lesser histories conspire with us to invent--that there are stopping places in history." Tony Howarth, Times Educational Supplement 
"The author traces the genesis of the relevant territorial arrangements and ensuing population trnasfers and then gives a well-documented and horrifying account of the exodus, the sufferings and deaths of millions, the ruthlessness of the new masters -- a travesty of the 'orderly and humane' fashion in which the measures were supposed to be carried out." William Guttmann, Observer 
"These Volksdeutsche were tragic figures, unfortunate enough to have been located in the wrong areas at precisely the wrong times. The circumstances leading to their abysmal situation are tellingly related by de Zayas in this most important work." Norman Lederer, Worldview 
"An interesting, well-written, and important book covering a topic on which almost nothing has appeared in English" Choice
"The lesson from this well-organized and moving historical record is not merely that retribution which penalizes innocent human beings becomes injustice, but that acceptance of political realities may be a better road to human fulfilment than the path of violence. Alfred de Zayas has written a persuasive commentary on the suffering which becomes inevitable when humanitarianism is subordinated to nationalism" 
Benjamin Ferencz, American Journal of International Law 
"Books such as this ... deserve a respectful welcome. There can be no dispute that the eviction and resettlement of some 16 million people which occurred in Eastern Europe at the end of the war caused enormous suffering. It is important that authors such as Mr. de Zayas should form time to time remind us of man's inhumanity to man." Michael Balfour in International Affairs
"L'ouvrage est édifiant et sera pour beaucoup une révélation. M. de Zayas n'est pas tendre pour les Alliés, qui ont fermé les yeux sur l'une des entreprises les plus inhumaines de l'histoire de la civilisation occidentale, la responsabilité des démocraties anglo-saxonnes étant a cet egard primordiale." Revue Générale de Droit International Public
In minuziöser Quellenarbeit zeigt de Zayas, dass in Polen und der Tschechoslowakei schon lange vor dem Krieg die Absicht gehegt wurde, die dort wohnhaften Deutschen aus ihrer rund 700-jährigen Heimat zu vertreiben. Beide Staaten missachteten ihre völkerrechtlichen Verpflichtungen zum Schutz von Minderheiten ... De Zayas erkennt darin einem Präzedenzfall fuer spätere Vertreibungen in Palästina, Zypern, Bosnien oder Kosovo. Sein engagiertes Wirken gegen solche 'Kriegsstrategien' hat bedeutdenden Anteil daran, dass sich das Recht auf die Heimat in den letzten Jahren als fundamentales Menschenrecht etablieren konnte. Patrick Sutter in der Neuen Zürcher Zeitung, 2006. 
Reviews of The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau (Picton Press, 4th revised edition, 2000. German version Die Wehrmacht Untersuchungsstelle (Universitas Verlag, Munich, 7th edition 2001)
"De Zayas is undoubtedly one of the world's leading legal scholars addressing forced population transfers ... [his] work provides massive confirmation of the truism that atrocities are committed in war by all sides, that many go unpunished, and some are part of national policy....the possibility that truth might be misused in argument by the devil is not a reason to suppress truth. I have no personal doubt that this book is a useful attempt to preserve an important truth. By writing it, the author -- whose own humanitarian sympathies are beyond question, as is Levie's scholarly detachment --has done a service to scholarship." Alfred Rubin in The Fletcher Forum 
"Every victim of inhumanity, regardless of nationality, race or creed, should be inteitled to the equal protection of the law.  The stated primary purpose of this interesing and well-written work is to hlep minimize the vicolations of international law in any future armed conflicts. if that goal is to be achieved, it is not enough merely to know that the rules are often broken by all sides. Americans learned that leasson at My Lai. There must be continuous improvement in the codes in order to meet the changing modes of warfare. There must be inculcation and acceptance of humanitarian values, even in time of war. Most important, there must be a more certain, objective, and effective judicial machinery, national and international, to improve the enforcement of international law and the rules of war. The de Zayas book shed light on a problem that has not yet been resolved." Benjamin B. Ferencz, American Journal of International Law.
"The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1495 is a fascinating book. It is well-organized and elegantly written ... a sobering new look at the Second World War and ourselves .. With the appearance of this new book ... our innocence comes to an official end." Arnold Krammer, Journal of Soviet Military Studies 
"The facts were painstakingly resarched by the author. Archives were consulted and cross-checked and survivors interviewed. It is an academic job well done, and a must for students of small islands of sanity in the ocean of madness called war" Lt.-Gen. G.C. Berkhof, Netherlands International Law Review 
"thoroughly and skillfully researched"- Col. Ernest Fischer in Army 
"This well-written book, which is based on thorough research of original sources... triggered a broad discussion... It is timely and necessary to discuss the legal, sociological and psychological problems involved in the investigation of war crimes during and after armed conflicts." Dieter Fleck, in Archiv des Völkerrechts 
"a well-founded book" Professor Norman Stone in the Sunday Times, London
"an excellent book" Professor Christopher Greenwood in The Cambridge Law Journal
"an important book" Professor L.F.E. Goldie in the American Journal of International Law
Reviews of A Terrible Revenge new revised edition (Palgrave/Macmillan, New York, 2006) German version Die deutschen Vertriebenen, Leopold Stocker Verlag/Ares, Graz 2006. 
"This popularly written but still scholarly study follows the author's other successful books in the fields of history and international law [which] were hailed by historians as well as lawyers as masterpieces of academic craftsmanship. His book.presents in a nutshell the history of the ethnic German population which had settled in the early 13th century in large parts of what is nowadays Eastern Europe." Netherlands International Law Review 
"The author has given the history of these expulsions a dramatic immediacy through a series of eyewitness accounts ...The remarkable sequel to this recital of inhumanity is that this displaced population has, in the 50 years since the war, managed to find a new home in a reunited Germany where nearly 20 percent of the population is made up of first- or second-generation descendants of these exiled millions." Army 
"Western historians have long averted their eyes from the stupendous crime 
authoritatively described by Alfred-Maurice de Zayas in this grim, essential 
book. The author has impeccable credentials for this work: a law degree 
from Harvard, a doctorate in history at Göttingen, mastery of five 
languages. He has worked in foreign archives and interviewed many survivors 
for this book, his fourth. For many years he has been a senior legal adviser 
on human rights to an international organization in Switzerland... The author 
conservatively takes the lowest available estimate of the deaths: over two 
million people died in the expulsions...." Otttawa Citizen
"De Zayas, a lawyer, historian and human rights expert specializing in 
refugees and minorities, has uncovered testimony in German and American 
archives detailing these atrocities, adding a new chapter to the annals of 
human cruelty. His carefully documented book serves as a reminder that many 
different peoples have been subjected to ethnic cleansing." Publishers 
weekly
"In stark and gruesome detail, Mr. de Zayas presents the personal testimony 
of literally dozens upon dozens of these German victims during those years 
of expulsion. Soviet soldiers were given carte blanche to rape and plunder 
tens of thousands of people. In their thirst for revenge, Soviet troops 
gang-raped women over and over ... Though the American government did not 
overtly endorse the brutalities that accompanied the expulsions of the 
Germans, support for the deportation of these millions of people was laid 
down as official U.S. policy while the war was still in progress." The Future of Freedom Foundation
"Fast ein Klassiker" Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, 2006
Reviews of Heimatrecht ist Menschenrecht (Universitas Verlag, Munich 2001:
"The central thesis of this unique and timely book is that the right to one's homeland belongs to the most fundamental human rights, since its observance by state and non-state actors is a prerequisite for the enjoyment of most other human rights. Indeed, human rights are not exercised in a vacuum, but in a concrete geographical and temporal context, which is most frequently the place where one was born, where one's historical and cultural links lie. The denial of the right to live in one's homneland by mass expulsion or ethnic cleansing entails not only the obvious violation of the right to self-determination, which is considered by many international legal experts as jus cogens, but a breach of most civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights." Netherlands International Law Review
Excerpts of review of:  Rainer Maria Rilke: "Larenopfer" (bilingual commented edition, translated by A. de Zayas) 
"Ebenfalls ganz neu und frisch ist die erste Übersetzung von Rilkes zum Jahresende 1895 erschienenem Gedichtband Larenopfer ins Englische. Die Übersetzung stammt von Alfred de Zayas (einem Mitglied der Rilke-Gesellschaft wie Frau Ada Brodsky), und sie liegt vor als eine »Bilingual Edition«. Selbst für deutschsprachige Leser ist ein solches Unternehmen eine große Hilfe. Das Nebeneinander der Texte, des Originals und seiner Übersetzung, bringt einen Dialog in Gang, der sehr zum Gewinn auch für den muttersprachlichen Lesers werden kann. Gelegentlich entdeckt man erst im Vergleich die besondere, von der Regel abweichende Wortwahl, die syntaktischen Figuren, die Ausklammerungen, und auch dies: die spezielle Bildlichkeit, die sich im anderen Medium nicht wiederholen läßt. Die im Namen der Brunnenromantik (»holde Brunnenpoesie«) formulierte Kritik an der modernen Wasserversorgung im Gedicht Brunnen (S. 46) macht besonders die Übertragung ins Englische deutlich. Und schon der bestimmte Artikel in der Übersetzung des Titels (Brunnen -- The Fountain) macht auf die Besonderheit aufmerksam, verweist auf die Identität in der Differenz. 
Was Alfred de Zayas mit seiner Übersetzung erreicht, eine erneute und intensive Beschäftigung mit dem Rilkeschen Text, das erreicht auf einem ganz anderen Weg der Altmeister der Rilke-Philologie: Walter Simon."
Professor August Stahl in the Blätter der Rilke Gesellschaft, 2005, page 275
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.169.133.249 (talk • contribs).
Thank you. First of all, please sign your posts in talk pages, to identify who said what. Second, the above wasn't really necessary. There are plenty of reviews that may be found on internet, in particular at de Zayas's own website, eg. here 
:I, Dr. Dr. Johannes van Aggelen, believe that the archived discussion was lopsided. What is important is to come to grips with the questions raised in the books of de Zayas, and not to discuss who likes or dislikes him.  The talk page of the German article in Wikipedia contains ridiculous allegtions by some authors who evidently would prefer that the subject matter of some of the books by de Zayas had remained tabu.  True, de Zayas did break two important tabus, and this has brought him both recognition and ad hominem attacks.  Only now are Germans starting to ponder the human rights aspects of the expulsion and its wider implications in the context of ethnic cleansing.  The first UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Dr. Jose Ayala Lasso, did recognize the negative precedent value of the expulsions and deplored the discrimination among victims, which remains prevalent to our days.  JvA.  
::I see your worries, but once again, as long as the article remains balanced, you don't have to engage in verbal fights in talk pages. According to wikipedia rule "No original researh",   any personal opinions in the talk pages cannot influence article's content. The only valid sources of changes are published reliable sources. So please don't vaste your valuable time on "lopsided" discussions. Each time they go off track, you simply ask the opponent: "what are your suggested changes and what published sources support them?" `'mikka 17:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: maybe these reviews are helpful

message: I have never met Alfred de Zayas but he is clearly a man of compassion and truth which shines through when the time is taken to study his works with an unbiased mind. He believes in the right to ones homeland and to anybody who doesn’t believe in this I would ask this; as you sit there in front of your computer in your own home with your children running around, with warmth, peace and tranquillity around you; don’t you have a right to this, a right to live in peace in your own home in the country which you were born in?
Or, if not, would it be ok to evict you and your children into the streets with no money, clothes, possessions just because of the actions of somebody else of the same race, culture or creed to yourselves.
This is partly what gave Alfred de Zayas the label of controversial when he gave light to the horrors endured by, amongst others, ethnic-German children who were raped, murdered and suffered horrors which I’m sure Wikipedia would not allow me to describe in detail, just because of the actions of others many miles away. Being a well versed lawyer de Zayas has protested for many years against the concept of collective guilt and the barbaric punishment of the innocent. To those who object to this I just wonder how you would feel if your family suffered unimaginable horrors due to the actions of, say a British or American soldier in any of the current war zones around the world. Would you be ok about that or would you then start to agree with de Zayas in objecting to the concept of collective guilt and the punishment of the innocent?
This is what Alfred de Zayas has protested against for many years and I for one would stand beside him, shoulder to shoulder, and support him in his quest for a humane world where the innocent are not treated as criminals just because of their nationality, ethnicity, colour, creed, race, religion or beliefs etc.
Alfred de Zayas has also been accused of revisionism. If telling the truth is wrong; if telling history as it was and not as our respective governments and educational establishments would have us believe is wrong then so be it, but history is always evolving as new facts become available. This is not revisionism it is just telling the TRUTH.
I agree with another comment which said that if de Zayas was in Nazi Germany he would have been disposed of as an enemy of the state; but we live in a free society so lets not dispose of him as an enemy of free compassionate speech but support him as a spokesperson of the humanity, compassion and truthfulness with which we should all treat each other. Read his books; study his works and then object to his considerations on collective guilt, unlawful internment and conviction of the innocent, be it adult or child……..if you can. 
I have chose not to edit others’ points of view as I and no doubt de Zayas agree that only by open unedited dialogue can the world be understood and made a better place. We all have the right to freedom of speech, freedom from oppression and the right to ones home; all of which are key points in the works of Alfred de Zayas.Doug 13:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alfred de Zayas; A man of compassion, humanity and TRUTH.