Talk:Abbas Kiarostami/Archive 1

message: Well, I noticed that the refs need to be fixed in Abbas Kiarostami. Try using the  template for this, and use Hrant Dink or Ani as an example. The references look nice in the Turkey article as well. As I'm pretty busy right now, I don't have time to read the whole article, but I suppose you could always ask other users for help. At a brief glance, the articles look pretty good, especially the one about Kiarostami. Regards, Khoikhoi 06:50, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Help 

message: Dear friend,
Firstly I should thank you about your superb contributions. Unfortunately I'm in Wikibreak and there is no time to check your article. Anyway I'll try to check it, in a glancing look it appears good, but you didn't observe some norms such as "Notes and references" and other little trivia. But average is good and certainly it will be one of a "good articles". --MehranVB talk | cont 08:13, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: By MehranVB

message: I asked several members of film wiki project and scriptwriting project to help in bringing the article to GA status. Sangak 20:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Good article/featured article

message: In light of the frantic editing which has introduced many errors of English and presentation as well as much PoV material, and given my inability to get either of the two editors to slow down or review their approach, I've placed this at RfC in the hope that more eyes will help. --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 17:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: RfC

message: Please don't remove the wikify and MPoV templates; the problems are still there (worse than before, in my view), and need to be corrected.  If and when the franic editing dies down, I'll try to clean it up myself, but there's no point now. --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 19:20, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added ; the article is full of material like this: "The relatively slow or deliberate movements in Kiarostami's films have the potential to affect the viewer on a supra-emotional level, which is to say in manner analogous to music".  It's suitable to a film magazine, perhaps, but not for an encyclopædia article. --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 22:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Templates

message: Do you guys think this article has reached the standards of a featured article? --Mardavich 17:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Still needs a lot of work to reach A or GA. Sangak 11:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured article 

message: In the Poetry and imagery section:
 
Khayyam was a classical, not ancient, Persian poet.  Ancient is pre-Islamic.
It may not matter much to many readers, but anyone who can read Persian will notice that the (subversive!) poem in the image is not the same as the one translated in the text. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 22:12, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I agree with you. "classical" is more common, although a poet from almost 1000 years ago may be considered ancient. I replaced "ancient" with "classical". About the image: Here is the image I originally suggested which is the cover of Khayyam's poetry book. Sangak 11:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Omar Khayyam 

message: I've checked again at WP:MOS-AR#Persian, & it does seem you're supposed to give the strict transliteration in the opening sentence, where the name is given in bold.  "Strict" apparently means pretending the word is in Arabic: so it should be Kiyārustamī in that sentence, even though we all know it's pronounced with an o, not a u.  After that, the standard or primary version Kiyarostami can of course be used.
But it's up to you: most Persian articles seem to ignore the MOS rules! OTOH, consider why you've written `Abbās with an `eyn, even though the `eyn isn't pronounced in Persian. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 22:43, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As you may have noticed, I originally used what WP:MOS suggested. However other editors did not accept it. I also changed my mind afterwards. WP:MOS is Arabic not Persian and It makes no sense to use Aarabic transliteration where we can use Persian transliteration.Sangak 11:05, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: There is no reason to follow WP:MOS for non-Arabic words. You should also note that WP:MOS is mainly proposed for the transliteration of the historic and classic Islamic names. Although it serves this purpose very well, those who have participated in preparing it were ignorant in generalizing it for all the names which are originally written in Arabic-based scripts. In my opinion, it's not even suitable for the transliteration of modern Arabic names such as Abdel-Nasser's given name. It's good to have a guideline for the transliteration of Persian names (by considering the different standards for historical names, and modern names, and geographical names, based on the standard transliteration methods used by Iranologists for different cases). However, the lack of WP Manual of Style for Persian transliteration, can not be the reason to use an inapropriate guideline which is not directly related to our subject. Jahangard 18:03, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling of Kiarostami 

message: This is an AWESOME article, folks. I did some minor copyediting (mostly making the language all American English instead of a mixture of American and British). A few points I noticed:
* Re transliteration: this is one thing that irritates me - a lot. First of all, the Arabic transliteration "policy" is still in the discussion stage and is not consistently used in Arabic-language-themed articles. Personally, I think Persian needs its own transliteration policy. It's completely uncalled for to use the Arabic vowel scheme. And yes, I do speak both languages.
* In the section entitled "Individualism", the paragraph about Ten should be tightened up.
* I was very uncomfortable with how close the text tracked the language of the critic Akrami, so I changed it still further. It makes me worry about other parts of the article. I don't think paraphrase is a very good device, especially where it tracks the language of the source so closely. You either quote or you summarize, IMHO.
* I recommend tightening up the paragraph about Stephen Bransford.
I'll try to finish commenting and editing later. Got to go now. Cbdorsett 04:34, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks User:Cbdorsett for your kind helps. Unfortunately I did not notice that you are using American spelling. According to suggestions from others I started to use one spelling (just accidentally British). I guess I messed it up. Please let me know if you prefer the American one. Or you think most of the article is on the American side. Then I can revert my edits so that we have either a uniform American or a uniform British spelling. Concerning transliteration, you are right. There is no concensus. What ever I do some people will be unhappy. I prefer the persian one which is the correct one. Sangak 09:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted my changes. Let's go with American spellings. There were some more British that I fixed. I will also try to follow your other comments. Give me some time! I have recieved many comments today. I hope I can manage them all. Thanks.Sangak 10:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: It is now uniformly American! Thanks to you and User:Jamse086Sangak 10:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I have finished "Americanizing" the English. I decided on that rather than British because of the vocabulary used. It does not matter either way, really, as long as the article is consistent. However, there is something more serious: after about the halfway mark, the article starts to ramble. Topics that were mentioned before tend to crop up again and again. I think you need to decide on a format. If you take the historical approach, put the films in chronological order and talk about them one by one. Each film portrays some conflict, uses some style, evokes some images and was discussed by some critic. This might be the easier approach. The other approach involves a lot of synthesizing - collecting similar films and discussing them as a group, addressing themes or styles one by one. Here there is the additional risk of falling into long, rambling sentences full of unnecessary comparisons, images, metaphors and so on. I also noticed that many of the references are not exactly in the right format. For starters, authors of books and articles are supposed to be listed last-name-first. Keep up the good work. I'll try to help out where I can. Cbdorsett 06:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Cbdorsett for your kind helps. We used a chronological order in Film career section. In cinematic style section we have no way other than grouping similar films. We will try to improve it gradually. Take care. Sangak 07:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyedit 27 February 

message: Click here. Perhaps we could incorporate some of that info into the article? --Mardavich 15:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will mention the event in the artile now. There were 2-3 other similar events over the last 2 years. This one is indeed notable. Thanks for the interesting link. Sangak 17:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extensive exhibition of Kiarostami's films in New York 

message: I changed
* life and death and change and continuity --> "life and death, along with change and continuity"
**This isn't perfect, but otherwise it would be "life, death, change, and continuity".
Overall, a very comprehensive article which I enjoyed reading. I will make the following recommendations:
* Merge the "Early life" and "Personal life" sections into a "Biography" section that should come first.
* Cut down on the external links -- 3 to 5 will probably do.
* I'd like to split out one of the longer sections, but it is difficult to say which one. Perhaps the Filmography section could be split out and made into a list along with synopses and images, like (for want of a better example) List of Star Trek: The Next Generation episodes.
I'll watch the page and make new comments as and when I can think of them. - Francis Tyers · 09:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Minor edits

message: *Transliteration: The names of the films are all in English. So the problem you are refering to must be in names of people. There are some names that are used every where like director's name and we have to live with them (I used the names according to the common form in festivals and IMDb; e.g. Sohrab Shahid-Saless).
*Main photo was replaced by a free one.
*I tried to reduce the number of short paragraphs.
*The order of the notes and secondary literature are now according to WP:LAYOUT.
*I worked out the external links according to WP:EL.
*I also tried to fix some misusage of coma and some grammer mistakes.
I will continue copyediting while looking forward to more comments and suggestions. Sangak 20:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes made according to peer reviews

message: First off, I'd like to note that, overall, I find the article deserving of GA status. However,  it contains quite a few minor problems, which I'll discuss below. Some of these problems are unfortunately serious enough for me to place it on hold.
#The main issue: the "Fiction and non-fiction" and "Themes of life and death" sections contain many statements which may be construed as original research. You have several options here—rewrite some of it, provide more references or move some of the text to the talk page and think about it/mess with it a little.
#The article is very long. I'm mostly OK with it, but this will definitely raise objections during a Featured Article candidacy.
More minor problems:
#Please check all film names and make sure they conform to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (titles).
#Please add access dates to all web references—this is very important, particularly if you intend to go for FA.
#There are still some run-on sentences, such as the following, from "Individualism":
#:According to film professors such as Jamsheed Akrami, Abbas Kiarostami unlike many other contemporary filmmakers has consistently attempted to redefine film and film medium by lowering its full definition and forcing audience's increased involvement. In recent years he has also progressively trimmed down the size of his films which Akrami believes reduces the film making experience from a collective endeavor to a purer, more basic form of artistic expression.[33]
#In "Poetry and photography", the paragraph on Riccardo Zipoli's paper is quite long, and, most importantly, lacks a citation to the work! :)
#It would be nice to make the text in "Secondary literature" small.
#A good round of copy editing would be a good idea before FAC.
It may not seem so from my comments, but this is an excellent article—so much so, it can get better :) Once these issues have been addressed, I'll have another look. Best wishes, Fvasconcellos 00:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK—after another round of edits by Sangak, I've re-read the article and found nearly all of the issues I raised to have been addressed. While there are still a few minor problems that a good copyedit would take care of, a few redundancies, etc., I believe this article does meet the GA criteria, and I am therefore passing it. Fvasconcellos 01:48, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA review

message: I tried to trim the section on the cinematic style article. The original section was moved to a separate article. The size of the current article is 54 kb. This is quite OK in the acceptable range in FA assessment. Sangak 19:35, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Size of the article

message: Abbas caused controversy in his native Iran at the Cannes Film Festival in France in 2005, when in accepting his award he exchanged kisses with French movie star Catherine Deneuve. The ordeal sparked a significant upset back at home, where such an action between an unmarried man and woman verges on a punishable crime. As a result Kiarostami chose to stay out of the country for several few months until the controversy settled down. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ernst Stavro Blofeld (talk • contribs) 14:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: More controverys info

message: First of all, congratulations on the promotion of this article: thoroughly deserved.
I hope you will, however, consider my remarks about excessive wiki links.  Please see WP:CONTEXT.  Looking at the pattern of linking in this article, I wonder whether the editors have really understood what the purpose of a link is meant to be: I almost get the impression that the links are used as a sort of highlighting device.  But that's not what links are for.  A good example is provided by the links to child and protagonist in "child protagonists"—obviously an important theme in AK's films.  If there were an article on child protagonist, that would be a useful link; but a link telling us that a child is
:the offspring, of any age, of two people, or an individual who has not yet reached puberty ...
isn't really very helpful:  Wikipedia is not Wiktionary.
For some reason (perhaps the editing was by a different person) the greatest density of irrelevant links is in the lead and the Personal life section.  I've mentioned some of the worst examples in my archived FAC Comment.  In Personal life I noticed competition, painting, drawing and crayon.  Later in the article there are links to prostitute, bride and sound.  Any reader clicking on sound will learn that:
:"Sound is a disturbance of mechanical energy that propagates through matter as a longitudinal wave. Sound is characterized by the properties of sound waves, which are frequency, wavelength, period, amplitude, and speed."
Fascinating stuff if you want to learn about physics; but not really relevant in the context of Kiarostami's film-making!
I'm not saying all this to be negative: I genuinely think the article would benefit from the removal of these links.  It's a case of "less is more"—but don't just take my word for it: re-read that page on WP:CONTEXT.  It may help you to become even better WP editors than you already clearly are. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 16:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed all those links. They were mostly added by copyeditors who reviewed the article.  Sangak Talk 21:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, the year in film links seem to be randomly peppered throughout, I'd lose those too. B movie is in WP:FAR for length and number of fair use images, it only had 17 at the time, yet this article has 19 and is half the size B movie was. I'd recommend cutting way back. And some wikilinks need disambiguating. Otherwise, it's some excellent work and I'm glad to see another quality director get the prestige treatment. Doctor Sunshine talk 19:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overlinking 

message: You'll find the FitzGerald translation I suggested in this Guardian article.  It really is quite well known in English, so I think it would be preferable to the uninspiring version currently in the article.
You can find the original (Guyand kasān behesht bā hur  xoshast) & translation at http://www.okonlife.com/poems/page1.htm. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 10:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We have now four translations (including the one in the article + the one on the FAC page, Guardian, the other website). I was reading and thinking about them for some time now. I don't like any of them. The one in the article is not nice either. They've just destroyed the beauty in the original poem. Please change it with any one you like and also include the citation. Thanks.  Sangak Talk 20:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Omar Khayyam 

message: The list of "secondary literature" includes "Slavoj Žižek, Lacan: The Silent Partners (Wo Es War)." I'm not familiar with this book, but I am very vaguely familiar with Žižek. He can be amusing in small doses but I've never seen him say anything coherent and substantial about anything. This may of course be my failing (as might my utter inability to take Freud or Lacan seriously). Anyway, neither Žižek nor the book appears to be mentioned anywhere else in the article. What's it doing in this list? As it is, its mention looks uncomfortably like an undergrad's attempt to impress his or her teacher.
(Perhaps other items in the list of "secondary literature" are also unmentioned; I didn't check.) -- Hoary 02:27, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree (and you're probably right about other books in the list). --Mel Etitis  (Talk) 10:35, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Secondary literature"?

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_links#Linking_to_YouTube.2C_Google_Video.2C_and_similar_sites
Nothing here states that the "Persian Carpet" Youtube link cannot be on the page. I agree with User:BehnamFarid. Icarus of old (talk) 13:23, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I too will agree that the use of this link is acceptable. Perhaps if the link section becomes unnecessarily long there might be reason to remove it down the road, but for now it gives a reader an opportunity to sample his work. If articles on painters/photographers/designers, etc can have examples of their work and sound files (including especially music) can now be embedded, then surely external links to videos for those related artists should be used. Hell, even encouraged.  SteveCoppock (talk) 16:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_links#Linking_to_YouTube.2C_Google_Video.2C_and_similar_sites states that linking is fine as long as the links abide by the guidelines on WP:COPYRIGHT. WP:COPYRIGHT#Linking to copyrighted works states that "if you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work". I believe that the movie is copyrighted work and an external website (in this case youtube) is carrying the movie clip in violation of the creator's copyright. So thats why we shd not link to it. I suggest that we remove the link because it is copyright violation .....Gprince007 (talk) 08:51, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dear Gprince007, you say that you believe, but where is your belief based on? What if I say that I do not believe in your beliefs? Moreover, YouTube can take care of itself. If you are concerned, you could always write to YouTube and tell them what your beliefs are and why (they have a service whereby people can write to them and tell them about whatever they wish). But until then, I insist on having the link where it is; I have made the link on the basis of good faith and I do not share your beliefs on the subject matter (I say this without implying that I must be right and you must be wrong — stated mildly, personally I am not sympathetic towards vigilantism, as I believe that we have already the institutions that enforce law and order; as responsible citizens we can always inform the law-enforcement agencies of our concerns and therefore should resist the temptation of taking the law in our own hands). We shall notice the changes in due course, if and when YouTube also believes that your belief on the subject matter conforms facts. Kind regards, --BF 10:27, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Pls dont take this issue personally....but we are writing an encyclopedic article here....and wikipedia takes its copyrights seriously. Pls read my above thread carefully and pls go thru WP:COPYRIGHT#Linking to copyrighted works carefully. It clearly states "if you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work". I have also deleted a huge discussion thread which was posted above becos wikipedia is not a forum to discuss personal views (see Wikipedia:Not#Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought). Just to be double sure i posted this youtube query at Wikipedia:MCQ#Youtube link to a video in Abbas_Kiarostami and the answer was to remove youtube link. Gprince007 (talk) 15:10, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Do whatever you wish to do, but not on my turf. What right have you got to delete my text on the talk page? You are not a morality police and must stop behaving like one here!!! You may do whatever you wish in the confines of your own home, but not here, which is a public space. I am free to write about whatever I like on Wikipedia talk pages so long as I do not cross the bounds prescribed by the laws restricting freedom of expression. No one has got the rights to apply censures here on what amounts to intellectual intercourse amongst people discussing arts and sciences. You seem even not to know the difference between a Wikipedia main entry and a Wikipedia talk page. Please stop crossing my path; I do not find such encounters very pleasant, so let us part in peace. --BF 18:12, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

text: As a member of WIPO and a signatory to its treaties, Iran's copyright laws must be respected internationally by other WIPO members, one of which is the United States, where this encyclopedia is hosted. As such, we cannot link to any site that is hosting Persian Carpet (or any other copyrighted work) without permission from the copyright holder. Without clear indication to the contrary, we have to assume that such permission has not been given to YouTube, therefore we cannot link to it. Sorry. -- Hux (talk) 20:41, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dear Hux, I have never stated anything contrary to your statement. However, I object to the suggestion that the video on YouTube has been placed there in violation of copyright laws. If a person believes that this is not the case and that copyright laws have been violated, then that person should write to YouTube and raise the issue with them. So long as the video is on YouTube, I trust that it is there entirely lawfully (I am not aware of any indication to the contrary; a mere suggestion that something might be in violation of some law is not sufficient, not here and not elsewhere). So, may I request you to respect my position and do not remove the YouTube link until such time as the matter has been officially clarified by YouTube? Thank you. --BF 21:33, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree - We cannot assume any such thing. The burden is not on Wiki editors to prove the content of an outside site is in violation of copyright law. The material is not posted on Wikipedia, so it is therefore not our concern. That would be akin to saying you won't listen to a radio station until it provides you with proof that they have permission of the copyright holders. As the host, the burden is on YouTube to give right's holders the means to challenge a perceived copyright trespass. Which they do.  SteveCoppock (talk) 17:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: youtube link

message: Shouldn't this article mention Crimson Gold? Khoikhoi 03:43, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: "My favourite film-maker of the decade is Abbas Kiarostami. He achieves a simplicity that’s so difficult to attain."  
Any opinion on including this quote in the article?  Sangak Talk 00:05, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Michael Haneke on Kiarostami

message: The first paragraph of the Spirituality section is copy and pasted from source 47. I am assuming this is not allowed? I am not sure it is even worth attempting to salvage that source as it doesn't make much sense anyway: "Kiarostami's films often reflect upon immaterial concepts such as soul and afterlife. At times, however, the very concept of the spiritual seems to be contradicted by the medium itself, given that it has no inherent means to confer the metaphysical." What medium does have an inherent means to confer the metaphysical?? I am not sure what his point is.
::Well, Mere "Copy and pasting" is a copyright voilation and is not allowed in  wikipedia....however you may rephrase the sentence and add the website as its source...Gprince007 (talk) 17:01, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spirituality Section 

message: I add some new picture in Commons] and try to find another free license picture. please use that in this featured article. Darafsh Kaviyani (Talk)‍ 05:39, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Picture 

message: Cinematic style of Abbas Kiarostami, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:17, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA review of [[Cinematic style of Abbas Kiarostami]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello, dear fellows! I think we must change Kiarostami's image, by replacing it so that everyone can have a healthy face and comfortable imagery about the director, not his sick and his image of his last moments, which he was so ill and his face wasn't normal , so sick. the lead image shouldn't be like that. At least, we must consider effect of this kind of picture. thank you by the way.The Stray Dog Talk Page 21:42, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Investigation about replacing the "Cancer-Face" of Kiarostami 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070217125318/http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/movies/2002/09/27/kiarostami/index.html to http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/movies/2002/09/27/kiarostami/index.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: : WHY isn't there any section dedicated to the films (or other media) about Kiarostami. There are many documentaries made about his cinematic style or filmmaking or even films. (one made by Italian director Nanni Moretti .Bbadree (talk) 11:38, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Films about KR 

message: Hello. This article does IMHO not meet the current featured article criteria. A quick overview:
* It fails 1a, with sentences like:
:: 
:: 
:: 
:: 
::: It also has multiple paragraphs starting with  or , resulting in repetitive prose. See especially the section called Film career.
* It has issues of close paraphrasing:
::Article: 
::Source: 
::Article: 
::Source: 
::Article: 
::Source: 
* There are also many citation needed-tags in the article.
I hope that any interested editor might help in fixing these issues, so that it may retain its FA status. Best, Gertanis (talk) 19:27, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  FAR needed 

message: This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Moneytrees🏝️Talk🌴Help out at CCI!  02:44, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible copyright problem