Talk:Catalan language/Archive 2

message: This anonymous edit cut the following: 
The concept of a "linguistic Catalan diasystem" was developed at the beginning of the 20th century as part of Catalan nationalist discourse; prior to that, Catalan was generally considered a dialect of Occitan and was included in the "linguistic Romanic-Occitanian diasystem". This newer "linguistic Catalan diasystem" would incorporate Valencian into the Catalan system, instead of both Catalan and Valencian being considered as dialects under the former "Romantic-Occitanian diasystem." This system brings Catalan nationalism the benefit of an increase in the official number of Catalan speakers. The term "Western Catalan" ("catalá occidental") was developed as part of this discourse, based on some lexical and phonetic similarities that the speech of the zone of Lleida (Lérida) had with that of Valencia.
While I don't necessarily like the political spin of the paragraph, I believe that what it said was basically accurate and should be restored (although reworded in a way that is less hostile to Catalan nationalism: it's not as if this was a Catalan nationalist reaction against scientific neutrality: most linguists today would say it was a corrective in terms of an earlier anti-Catalan framing. So I'd end up with something like:
The concept of a "linguistic Catalan diasystem" was developed at the beginning of the 20th century as linguists, doubtless influenced by rising Catalan nationalism, began to distinguish Catalan more firmly from Occitan. Prior to that, Catalan and Valencian were generally considered dialects of Occitan, included in the "linguistic Romanic-Occitanian diasystem". The term "Western Catalan" ("catalá occidental") was developed as part of this discourse, based on some lexical and phonetic similarities that the speech of the zone of Lleida (Lérida) had with that of Valencia.
Unless someone objects in the next few days, I'll restore this modified version of the paragraph to the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually Gascon has enough personality that some class it apart of the rest of Occitan. --Error 00:56, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have deleted that text. It is still nnpov--SMP - talk page (en) - talk page (ca) 18:16, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing view of Catalan 

message: If they have dialects at Ibiza, Mallorca, and Menorca, how about Formentera? De mortuis... 20:05, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Eivissenc dialect is spoken in Eivissa and Formentera.--SMP - talk page (en) - talk page (ca) 14:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Formentera

message: (I'm the anonymous who frequently posts at this page.)
Since there are no disputes about the rest of the page, and the main complaints are that nobody cites their sources and that the Valencian section is polemical and unclear for a number of reasons (mainly clashing views which are not separated and thus result in unclear and half-POV statements), I've removed the disputed tag from the article, but have added a cite sources one and a Complete Rewrite one to the Valencian section, which I think is much needed. I'll try to work on the rewrite one of these days, but, for the time being, I think it's better to leave things this way. If you disagree, please say so! I wouldn't like to be making polemical choices!
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sputnikpanicpuppet (talk • contribs) 21 July 2006.
:I look forward to seeing a rewrite of this section, laying out the various views in the matter, properly cited. - Jmabel | Talk 06:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Total rewrite of the Valencian section 

message: I have reverted the last changes made to the page. Essentially, they introduce wrong info (the dialects are named "Barceloní" and "Tarragoní", and not "Barcelonès" or "Tarragonès", for example); they removed the needed rewrite and cite sources tags without fixing the problems; they remove important information like the relationship between Standard Catalan and other dialects; they restore the comparison with Canadian/Metropolitan French which has been argued against before; the only thing they might be right about is on the Scandinavian language comparison, but I'm not sure (I can't speak any Scandinavian language...)
So, for now, I'll revert the changes
--Sputnikpanicpuppet 02:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert 

message: I would hope that someone who knows more about this topic than I would look closely through the changes of the last few weeks. It seems to me that a lot I would consider correct has simply been removed from the article. Among other things, the following paragraph was removed; insofar as it touches on matters I know about, it seems to me to have been entirely correct (if perhaps not ideally worded), and I don't see any equivalent in the present article.
Standard Catalan, as regulated by the IEC, centres on the speech of the educated classes of Barcelona, and so is closest to Central Catalan; however, not all of the features of Barcelonese speech can be considered standard, as there are lots of traditional dialectal traits and Castillian influence in that area. Aditionally, most important dialectal traits of other dialects are also considered standard. The orthography used to write Standard Catalan (and basically any Catalan text) is closest to Valencian pronunciation, although some instances of grave accented <è> correspond to Central Catalan. There is also a second standard form of the language, Valencian (valencià), regulated by the AVL. The Valencian standard is very close to IEC's but adds features characteristic of Western Catalan.
- Jmabel | Talk 05:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's now been restored. - Jmabel | Talk 08:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Much removed 

message: "…and is often erroneously thought of as a sort of "transitory" language between the Catalan and Gallic languages…" I'm reminded of the Neil Young line "like a cross of himself and a fox". How can it be thought of (erroneously or otherwise) as transitory (presumably "transitional") beteen itself and something else? - Jmabel | Talk 21:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incoherent "transition" 

message: It states 12 million speakers in the introduction, but when sources are added it goes down to 10.4 and the infobox says more than 7.5, while they are not technically contradicting, I think more coherent data could be given. Anyone? Knights who say ni 23:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: People who understand Catalan in Catalonia (and Andorra) are often counted as potential speakers of the language. While that is not so in the other Catalan-speaking territories (for lack of officiality or strict implementation of it), sometimes potential speakers include all or almost of all the people living in a Catalan-speaking territory. That's why, when figures need being high, potential speakers are used. Other language statistics (including some about English and Spanish) have a tendency to do so. In my opinion, only people who can actually speak the language, in one way or another, should be included. Then, my guess is that Catalan is spoken (as a mother tongue or a second language) by more than 8 million people, perhaps a bit more than 8,5. I'd say 10 millions is really too much, unless we include those who understand it perfectly and would only dare say something in Catalan on certain occasions. I guess the reason they say 12 in the article is because they say spoken or understood, while the table accounts for the number of total speakers and says more than 7,5. Yes, definitely it's more than 7,5 and more than 8 too, but more recent census should be done in order to offer accurate data, specially since immigration in the past 10 years has increased the population in those territories.  Info 08:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of speakers 

message: there should be a section explaining the relationship between spanish and catalan language (how similar or different they are). Loosmark (talk) 22:02, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: May I ask why? I mean, why noy a section explaining the relationship between French and Catalan? --77.224.26.82 (talk) 00:53, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not have a section explaining the relation of Catalan to both Spanish and French? Grunnen (talk) 16:32, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: well mainly because it is interesting and many people don't know the difference between the two languages. but of course explaining the relation to French is interesting to. Loosmark (talk) 14:24, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: the suggestion is very justified. you only need to compare an info pamphlet on barcelona airport written in catalan and spanish(or any other one in catalunya) with open eyes to see that there are great similarities. relatives of mine near barcelona tell me, that people from barcelona and madrid have little problem understanding each other, if they are both willing. this has nothing to do with catalonians learning spanish at school. on the other hand, a frenchman would be hard pressed to understand any catalonian and vice versa. finally, many place catalonian in the language family with aragonese and kastillian as next of kin which, at least, is an indication of a very close relationship and which also justifies the suggestion above. Sundar1 (talk) 15:11, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

text: This is not going to be done here, this article is already very messy to add such unnecessary comparison, it could be also compared with Occitan (Catalan's sister language) or with Portuguese, Aragonese or  Asturian-Leonese-Mirandese, which are closer languages to Catalan than Castilian (check :ca:Lleis fonètiques del català and sources: Catalan and Castilian diverge the most when compared with the other Romance languages). Jɑυмe (xarrades) 20:58, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

text: Just a comment on this discussion. We cannot allow Wikipedia content to be determined by over-sensitive people with a political or national agenda. One of the people above questions why a Spanish-Catalan comparison is necessary; indeed he acts like such a thing is astonishing to even suggest! But I guarantee you the majority of people (like me) looking up this article do so because we are interested in the Spanish-Catalan comparison. It is a very valid issue, even if it hurts someone's feelings. (I could make similar remarks for the Valencian vs. Catalan argument above. It reminds me of people of Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia who refuse to acknowledge the mutual intelligibility between their language and Bulgarian. Politics rears its ugly head yet again...). 69.196.184.109 (talk) 21:40, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  As far as I know, the linguistic consensus is that Catalan is most closely related to Occitan, and that both belong to the Gallo-Romance languages, which also includes French (more distantly related) but not Spanish. Linguists group languages according to shared innovations, and Catalan therefore presumably shares innovations with French that it does not share with Spanish, while Spanish and Catalan do not share innovations that French does not also possess. This is a bit simplistic of course, because languages don't always develop neatly according to a family tree, but my experience is that Catalan and Occitan resemble each other much more closely than Catalan and Spanish. I do think that a Spanish-Catalan comparison may be useful, but I think the reality is that they are not actually as similar once you start looking at the history. The loss of final -o and -e is a very notable difference which is shared by all Gallo-Romance languages, and therefore goes back at least 1000 years, but there are many more. CodeCat (talk) 23:50, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  relationship with spanish 

message: The so-called "Decree banning the Catalan language in France" does not, in fact, say what the caption says it says. It does *not* ban the Catalan language in France. It only decrees that public acts such as court decisions and such must from henceforth be written in French rather than Catalan. This hardly constitutes "banning" a language. 
I therefore suggest to either:
1) change the caption to "Decree from 1700 changing the official language of the newly-acquired Catalan speaking regions to French", or
2) remove the picture as it is not really very interesting (in my opinion).
not logged in, next time sorry.
(212.114.247.96 (talk) 22:07, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right, either option is good. First Catalan was diminished to a nonstandard language ("patois") by the Kingdom of France. Then right after the centralised Kingdom of France (1789-1792), the also centralised French Republic banned and started discriminating the nonstandard languages of France. IMO the section 18th century to the present: France should be expanded and mention  "La Vergonha" and the French policies against "patois". We should also mention here "The report on the necessity and means to annihilate the patois and to universalize the use of the French language". Jɑυмe (xarrades) 18:41, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

text: Catalan was banned from legal/government/official use. That is now clear in the article.75.134.23.211 (talk) 20:50, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Decree banning the Catalan language in France" 

message: It's true that Catalan has some unique lexicon, but at least two of these do not qualify: Situated between two large linguistic blocks (Iberic and Gallic), Catalan has many unique lexical choices, such as enyorar ("to miss somebody"), apaivagar ("to calm down somebody"), or rebutjar ("reject"). Cat. apaivagar is cognate to Sp. apaciguar, and rebutjar finds congeners in Aragonese and Old Spanish repoyar.75.134.23.211 (talk) 01:07, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lexical comparison needs cleanup 

message: I found this book (from Google Books). It's in English, and features an extensive overview of the language.
http://books.google.es/books?id=XZAMHDbMtwIC&pg=PT146&dq=catalan+dialects&hl=ca&sa=X&ei=_Ao8UqvNOsmntAbs0IGQDw&ved=0CFsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=catalan%20dialects&f=false
I guess it's going to be very useful.--Fauban 12:37, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Very interesting book 

message: Is this a good external link?
*   Són bojos, aquests catalans!? Are these Catalans crazy!? (English subtitles), on YouTube
It is different from other links, but I think it may be valuable. But - perhaps - it is to much political? What do you think?
Here is my discussion with CodeCat (who said it is not a good link):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:CodeCat#Catalan_language
Jaceknow (talk) 00:49, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this a good link?-- [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-8jwR9Cj68   ''Són bojos, aquests catalans!?'']  

message: I'm affraid that valencian linguistical secession movement is more a political than linguistical issue, and should be considered in that way. I mean, of course do Lo Rat Penat and RACV exist, but ¿Which representativity do they have? 
As We can see in the French, Spanish and Catalan articles of the proposed separate normative for Valencian language, We can find that that normative has never had any consideration at University level, that has never used offically (except for the fallas organisation, and only during 6 years), that Spanish laws have considered that Catalan and Valencian are the same language, and other. I mean, the "separate Valencian language" is virtually a language with no usage. As We can see in the only study about the use of the "Puig Normative" and written production, between 1979 and 2004 it was used (totally or parcially) in 656 works, with 28 authors having a bibliography of 9 or more books, and with those 28 authors meaning more than 50% of the total production (more than 325 works). Obviously, the Valencian Secession Movement has existed and exists. But which representavity it has? We should be careful to not over-represent any political movement, because We could be biasing the article.--Coentor (talk) 18:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Valencian secessionism movement 

message: It seems the link to the reference Enciclopèdia Catalana is broken (as in references 15, 23, 26, 93 and 97 of the current revision). Does anyone know how it could be repaired? MuDavid (talk) 03:34, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to reference ''Enciclopèdia Catalana'' 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Catalan language. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150516115058/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjurosw5isu to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjurosw5isu
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071124091243/http://www.noticies.cat:80/pnoticies/notItem.jsp?item=noticia&idint=223737 to http://www.noticies.cat/pnoticies/notitem.jsp?item=noticia&idint=223737
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 18:17, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I start this discussion because I have been asked to, after my last edit was reverted. I edited the infobox of Catalan Language, in the part of <<regions: Catalan Countries, Geographical distribution Northeast, around Barcelona; Catalonia, Valencia provinces, Balearic Islands; Carche region, Murcia Province in Spain.>> Sorry, but this statement really doesn't make sense..."...NE, around Barcelona..." NE where? and Barcelona is not a region!...That sentence simply doesn't make any sense at all. I edited this section and added the regional flags belonging to the four actual countries where Catalan is co-official or officially accepted. My point was, and still is, making that region section accurate (which the present edition isn't). By inserting the regional flags, we acknowledge that all those regions have kept the original flag used in the medieval Crown of Aragon, united and ruled by the Counts of Barcelona (1167-1410) (House of Barcelona). This was the origin of the Catalan language expansion. I think it is historically important and relevant to understand and clearly see its origins. As my edition of the Template flags has been removed, I seek for concensus. Thank you  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ethra2016 (talk • contribs) 09:32, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regions were Catalan is spoken