Talk:Operation Grapes of Wrath

message: ==Clearly incorrect fact in side panel==
The panel states that the Israeli leader at the time of the operation was Benjamin Netanyahu. Yet a quick check reveals he did not become PM until June. This offensive was undertaken by Shimon Peres and Ehud Barak.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.5.59.1 (talk) 07:22, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: The panel states that the Israeli leader at the time of the operation was Benjamin Netanyahu. Yet a quick check reveals he did not become PM until June. This offensive was undertaken by Shimon Peres and Ehud Barak.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.5.59.1 (talk) 07:22, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Clearly incorrect fact in side panel

message: I don't know which ones are the correct ones, someone with a source should fix this. Joncnunn 18:39, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Numbers in Summary don't match numbers in main article

message: In the third line the words "in Southern Lebanon" were added in, the previous sentence stated that Israel invaded Lebanon making this second mention of the location to where they withdrew redundant.
The words "launched" in the next sentence were reverted to "responded with"; I made this correction because, as the Wikipedia page for the war in 1993 states: 
"In late June 1993, Hezbollah launched rockets against an Israeli village, and the following month attacks by both Hezbollah and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine killed five Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers inside the occupied territory. These actions are generally considered to have been the catalyst for Operation Accountability" it then sites a Globalsecurity.org briefing.
The word "launched" implies that there was no previous provocation, sadly in they cycle of violence in lebanon during this period both sides engaged in multiple acts of provocation. 
In the next sentence an edit was made deleting a reference to Hezbollah's targeting of civilians and the addition of the words "their allies" in regarding the SLA.  
To the first point, Hezbollah has made no secret of their rocket attacks on northern Israeli towns so I see no reason why we should, I included a source to clarify that point.  Later in this section of the paragraph it is mentioned that Hezbollah "occasionally" bombed Israeli towns; previous to signing accords that prohibited this tactic it was the stated tactic of Hezbollah... reading the amnesty article on the peace accord makes it clear that in writing the accord this was no mystery:
  In particular, the "two parties commit to ensuring that under no circumstances will civilians be the target of 
  attack and that civilian populated areas ... will not be used as launching grounds for attacks." Israel further 
  agreed that its forces "will not fire any kind of weapon at civilians or civilian targets in Lebanon", and Hizbullah 
  agreed "not [to] carry out attacks by Katyusha rockets or by any kind of weapon into Israel."
So to downplay Hezbollah's role would be folly, but one must mention their claim of legitimacy (which is just as tenuous as Israel's). 
To the second, if we are to write "Israel's allies" before a mention of the SLA Wikipedia would then be forced to write "Iran's Allies" before every mention of Hezbollah.  A click on the link to the page about the SLA will make their alliance clear and arguments as to how closely or distantly their were allied can be had there.
The next sentence began without introducing the subject (a simple "The" before Israel probably would have sufficed) and continues to mention Israel's bombing of civilians.  While personally I believe the reports of HRC and Amnesty and that this was Israel's overall strategy , this is not the universal position, the United States and Israel maintain that the targets of Israeli shelling were legitimate military targets.  Just as I noted that Hezbollah defines their targets as legitimate, it is worth mentioning that Israel does the same.  In order to maintain the NPOV of the article I think we must represent that both sides are have been cited for targeting civilians, regardless of personal feelings of legitimacy, leading up to Operation Grapes of Wrath. Nquartey 22:02, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical Background Section 

message: I fully support this suggestion Isarig 04:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: what makes you think it deserves an article? What makes it notable? Isarig 04:22, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What makes you think it does not deserves an article? What makes it not notable? --Banzoo 23:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that it is a single incident, one of many such incidents, which don't get their own article. These tragic mistakes happen in every war, but just like we don't have several hundred articles listing every single case of civilian victims of the Kosovo war, or WWII, there is no need to have one for every such case in Operation Grapes of Wrath. How about answerign my questions? Isarig 18:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Single incident"? just as the Qana "incident"? or the rocketed house "incident"? and so on ... the word "single" and "incident" become more and more frequently repeated such a way that similar events cannot be called anymore "single" nor "incident"s. So I suggest you to do more background research before projecting your personal point of view especially when the UN reports on those "single incidents" called them deliberate attacks on civilians. --Banzoo 00:38, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Qana incident is notable, and there is no problem showing what makes it notable: it is cited as the incident which forced Israel to stop the campaign, the scale of casualties was very large, it resulted in worldwide press coverage and a formal UN unvestigation. Compare and contrast with the 2 incidents you keep pushing, which are hardly mentioned anywhere, caused no notable coverage, and are a common occurence in every war. How about answering my questions - what makes this event notable? Isarig 05:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, you only accuse the articles for not notability based on your personal feelings only, without providing any evidence that support your point of view. So please stop bringing this discussion unless you were able to provide independent proof. --Banzoo 00:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seem you are having difficulty reading. I have provided you with several facts, not my feelings, about what makes Qana notable, and by implication, what makes this attack not notable. You have yet to show any reason why it is notable, and this was made clear to you by other editors in the AfD. Stop your POV pushing and disruption of this page Isarig 06:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Image:SLA patch.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:09, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: merge into Operation Grapes of Wrath

message: :Image:SLA patch.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 05:09, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:SLA patch.png

message: It is highly questionable to use an argumentative such as that of Israel Shahak's as one of two external sources for an article in this kind of highly controversial subject. It should be replaced, removed or, at the very least, balanced by a pro-israeli argumentative text. 213.89.66.28 (talk) 22:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The operational maneuvers of Grapes of Wrath were similar to those of operation “Din Ve-Cheshbon” (דין וחשבון) in 1993: An extensive bombing of the Shiite villages in South Lebanon in order to create a massive flow of civilians north towards Beirut thus applying pressure on Syria and Lebanon that will make them restrain the Hezbollah.
    ←   ZScarpia   13:32, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

text: pounding Lebanese civilian targets so as to create Lebanese government pressure on Hezbollah to drop its assaults on Israeli military forced occupying southern Lebanon. A UN installation was also hit by Israeli shelling causing the death of 118 Lebanese civilians (Amnesty 1996).
The first sentence is cited to: .
The original justification given for the removal was: "The sentence was removed because of lack of reliable sources, some of it is original research, it is biased, and also badly worded . It does not belong in the article and thus removed."
Sources are given. The deleter or deleters don't seem to realise that they deleted more than a sentence. What is said in the initial part-sentence deleted accords with reasoning given by the IAF for targeting civilian areas. I suggested to  the deleter or deleters that if they didn't like the wording, they should re-write it instead of deleting it. They told me to re-write it myself. No indication was given on what the supposed original research is.
    ←   ZScarpia   22:20, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

text: Not done: because it is not a typo. French is a recognized language in Lebanon, and "agression" is a French spelling. Thank you for your input! P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 20:28, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Israel Shahak

message: The article My own war crime: personal reflections following the Goldstone Report on the Promised Land blog (which is written by Noam Sheizaf) states that the Israeli Air Force site said the following about the purpose of Operation Grapes of Wrath (unfortunately the link given no longer works):
:The operational maneuvers of Grapes of Wrath were similar to those of operation “Din Ve-Cheshbon” (דין וחשבון) in 1993: An extensive bombing of the Shiite villages in South Lebanon in order to create a massive flow of civilians north towards Beirut thus applying pressure on Syria and Lebanon that will make them restrain the Hezbollah.
    ←   ZScarpia   13:32, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Purpose of the operation

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thread_title: File:Hezbollah flag.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: One or more editors operating under IP addresses are insisting on removing the following text from the Lead:
: pounding Lebanese civilian targets so as to create Lebanese government pressure on Hezbollah to drop its assaults on Israeli military forced occupying southern Lebanon. A UN installation was also hit by Israeli shelling causing the death of 118 Lebanese civilians (Amnesty 1996).
The first sentence is cited to: .
The original justification given for the removal was: "The sentence was removed because of lack of reliable sources, some of it is original research, it is biased, and also badly worded . It does not belong in the article and thus removed."
Sources are given. The deleter or deleters don't seem to realise that they deleted more than a sentence. What is said in the initial part-sentence deleted accords with reasoning given by the IAF for targeting civilian areas. I suggested to  the deleter or deleters that if they didn't like the wording, they should re-write it instead of deleting it. They told me to re-write it myself. No indication was given on what the supposed original research is.
    ←   ZScarpia   22:20, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Operation Grapes of Wrath. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20010121131000/http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0796/9607019.htm to http://www.lcps-lebanon.org/pub/tlr/96/sum96/grapes_wrath_cost.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/letters/letters-qana-betrayed-deuteronomy-1349238.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060412012958/http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engMDE150421996 to http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engMDE150421996
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20010121131000/http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0796/9607019.htm to http://www.lcps-lebanon.org/pub/tlr/96/sum96/grapes_wrath_cost.html
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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: From Fool's Errand, Time to End the War in Afghanistan (2017) by Scott Horton:
p53.0 / 863:
For one example, in April 1996, after Israel launched their Operation Grapes of Wrath campaign in Southern Lebanon, future lead September 11th hijacker, Mohammad Atta, signed his last will and testament, a symbol of his willingness to die in the fight against those he blamed for the war.[25] As journalist Terry McDermott explains in his book on Atta’s so-called “Hamburg cell” of September 11th plotters, they had all agreed it was the Americans who were responsible for what Israel was doing since the U.S. government gives Israel so many billions of dollars in military equipment and other financial aid.
p54.8 / 863:
As journalist James Bamford later noted, “[Bin Laden] frequently mentioned Qana during those times. It was a very inflaming incident in terms of his own development of his hatred for the United States, and as well for other people throughout the Middle East.”[28]
When Atta and his best friend and co-conspirator, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, found out how closely Osama bin Laden agreed with their own view, they decided his war was to be their path. The next year, Atta and bin al-Shibh traveled to the training camps in Afghanistan to meet with bin Laden and volunteer their services.
    ←   ZScarpia   14:12, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link with September 11th terrorism 

message: In the first paragraph, there is a typo. Change the bolded "Agression" to "Aggression". 2601:401:C680:2FB0:DC03:E6D1:28D1:378A (talk) 20:00, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: because it is not a typo. French is a recognized language in Lebanon, and "agression" is a French spelling. Thank you for your input! P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 20:28, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 April 2021 

message: I removed the item about 3 israeli soldiers being killed in Grapes of Wrath.
Too many sources don't mention this.
The only source is a, now defunct, Norwegian amateur site.
Coresponding Hebrew article also mentions 3 dead IDF, but has no source,
Please feel free to add the infomation with more credible sources.
Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 01:04, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Three Israeli soldiers killed?

message: I have fixed most of the missing sources that other editors have pointed out, plus some more.
I therefore remove the tags of missing inline citations.
If you think that more sources are needed, please indicate where.
I will continue working with the article.
Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 23:31, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing the tags