Talk:Haemophilia in European royalty

message: I strongly feel we should delete doctor who stuff. It is totally irrelevant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fangfufu (talk • contribs) 
:Watch the episode first. It touches at the end on the subject of the article Will (E@) T 17:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: THere are many non-scientific and preposterous things about this article.LeVeillé (talk) 04:02, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Doctor Who Stuff

message: How weird that three of them died in car accidents. Statistically, that is quite strange. Perhaps haemophilia impairs one's ability to drive... 70.20.211.100 (talk) 14:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really odd. A minor accident would cause a hemophiliac to bleed out, unlike a normal person. Any accident could conceivably be fatal and still is for this disorder. Today, they receive multiple blood transfusions and other treatments. Still have difficult surviving accidents that would not kill others.LeVeillé (talk) 04:07, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Car accidents 

message: Take a look at this thread at the Royals Portal, which mentions one of Queen Victoria's descendants, Ferdinand Soltmann, being a haemophiliac. The people that post at this board are trusted historians (Artuno Beeche, Marlene Eilers Koenig, etc) and are in contact with several royal families, including the Langenburgs. Should this be included as a modern-day descendant of QV affected by the disease? Morhange (talk) 03:44, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ferdinand Soltmann 

message: Just thought I'd point out that Alice, daughter of Leopold, should be highlighted in red. I would do it for you but I have no idea how to do that. Sorry. 
Lucy.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.176.83 (talk) 01:02, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Family tree error 

message: The bulleted paragraph about Alexei states that the sister who carried the mutation causing hemophilia was "thought to be Maria by American researchers and Anastasia by Russian researchers...[1]" This is incorrect. Page 18 of the Supporting Online Documents for the footnoted 2009 paper in Science by Rogaev et al identifies the Grand Duchess in question as skeleton #6; this skeleton was believed to be Tatiana by the Americans and Anastasia by the Russians.
The probable reason the previous Wikipedia editor(s) incorrectly named Grand Duchess Maria is that the Americans and Russians disagreed about the identification of two sets of the skeletal remains found in 1991: Not only did the two teams disagree about skeleton #6, they also disagreed about skeleton #5, which the Russians believed to be Tatiana, while the Americans believed her to be Maria.
I recommend changing "Maria" to "Tatiana" in the third sentence of the paragraph, and also deleting the final sentence completely, since Maria’s tonsillectomy is irrelevant. BlueSockMonkey (talk) 18:01, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well if there is a descrepency it should be noted, especially since there are two good sources saying two different things. Beefcake6412 (talk) 18:10, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, there is no discrepancy in the Science paper by Rogaev et al. The earlier Wikipedia editors simply misunderstood what that paper said--possibly they did not read the Supporting Online Information. BlueSockMonkey (talk) 18:31, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine 

message: Tsarevich Alexei definitely did not die of haemophilia, and Prince Maurice of Battenberg died in combat, so I am removing them from the list of people who died from haemophilia. Tad Lincoln (talk) 05:28, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Tsarevich Alexei certainly bled to death, but you are right that it is probably misleading to attribute this to haemophilia.  However, with regard to Prince Maurice, dying in combat and dying of haemophilia are not mutually exclusive.  According the the New York Times account, he was not killed instantly, but died later of his wounds, meaning he may have bled to death from a would that would not have killed a non-haemophiliac, and his death would qualify just as those killed in car accidents that would not have killed a person with normal clotting.  Agricolae (talk) 18:25, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not actually sure Maurice was a hemophiliac. He's often mistakenly attributed as being one, but a hemophiliac would not be allowed to serve in a combat position, especially not a grandchild of Queen Victoria. Prince Waldemar of Prussia and Maurice's brother Leopold were both hemophiliacs who were given desk positions during the war because their hemophilia prevented them from serving. That Maurice was allowed to serve a combat position suggests he probably wasn't a hemophiliac (or had a very very mild case like Kraft of Hohenlohe) and died of normal combat injuries. Morhange (talk) 00:40, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough, but then maybe he shouldn't be shown as a hemophiliac on the pedigree. And as long as we are talking about the pedigree, if we conclude that Kraft inherited a mild hemophilia, then his great-grandmother shouldn't be shown on the pedigree as a definitive homozygous normal (can Christmas Disease even manifest itself in a mild form, or does this this mild phenotype in and of itself show this to be a new spontaneous mutation?). The fact is, we can't tell the genotype of any females not known to be a carrier.  Only the Czar's daughters have been explicitly determined, an even there, the identification of which was which is not perfectly certain.  Any other female could either be homozygous normal or heterozygous and just didn't happen to pass the mutant allele in a manner that allowed it to be detected. Agricolae (talk) 00:54, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alexei Nikolaevich, Tsarevich of Russia 

message: The description currently states, "Despite frequent inter-marriage among royalty, no case of such double inheritance is known among Queen Victoria's descendants. However, it is possible that such cases have gone undocumented . . . ."  Is this really possible?  For this to occur, it takes a very special intermarriage, involving a haemophiliac male and a female, each with an exclusively female-line descent from Victoria or from a Victorian haemophiliac male.  None of the intermarriages of which I am aware involved this specific combination.   Is there any source that mentions this possibility specifically with regard to Victoria's descendants, or is it simply based on generalities regarding haemophilia?  Agricolae (talk) 18:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possibility of a female sufferer? 

message: We have a big problem with the Today section.  It is revealing the medical condition of a living individual, and currently the only reference given is a dead link.  This needs to be shored up or deleted, because it is clearly in violation of WP:BLP as it stands. Agricolae (talk) 01:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: this link? It still works for me, you have to be a member of the forum to view it, I believe, but it's not a dead link. Morhange (talk) 06:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I can't see it - is it something that would qualify as a WP:RS?  Or is it just a discussion of the issue on a forum?  Wikipedia is particularly careful about this kind of thing, and as much as it may add to the article, having this kind of personal information on a living person is problematic without extremely good (reliable in the Wikipedia sense) sourcing. Agricolae (talk) 14:11, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I would consider it a reliable source. It's a forum post, but the people who contribute to this forum (and supplied the information) are well known royal historians--Marlene Eilers Konig and Arturo Beeche, for example, who wouldn't post any information, publicly or privately, without permission from these families. Marlene's books about Queen Victoria's descendants have been cited as sources for a number of articles on Wikipedia, but I understand the hesitation when it comes to forums. Morhange (talk) 22:52, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if this would be considered up to standard or not.  Do you know who, exactly, made this particular contribution?  You mention two, "for example". Did these two supply that information or are they just examples of the type of people who participate?  Maybe I will float it on BLP/N. Agricolae (talk) 04:56, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I ended up going to WP:RSN instead. Agricolae (talk) 21:06, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

text: The relevant comments were all made by Beeche, with some additional comments from Marlene Koenig. Morhange (talk) 01:59, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't use forums as sources for anything except perhaps an article about the forum, and then probably not. We certainly wouldn't use it for a WP:BLP. I've deleted the section and removed it as a link to another statement.  WP:RS says "There is an important exception to sourcing statements of fact or opinion: Never use self-published books, zines, websites, webforums, blogs and tweets as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the biographical material." Dougweller (talk) 20:41, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll add that I agree with not using forums, even though I belong to some academic forums where there are some really interesting comments I'd love to use. Dougweller (talk) 20:43, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Today section - BLP 

message: What are the snps of the mutation?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.233.232 (talk) 10:36, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  SNPs 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Haemophilia in European royalty. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120717084318/http://ftp.cac.psu.edu/~saw/royal/r01.html to http://ftp.cac.psu.edu/~saw/royal/r01.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:57, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Louis_XIV of France was married to Maria_Theresa_of_Spain.  "Her marriage in 1660 to King Louis XIV, her double first cousin, ..., she saw five of her six children die in early childhood ..."
This strikes me as another case, although I've not seen any reference to the possibility anywhere.  Also, apparently 6 out of 8 of Maria's siblings died young, some within days of birth.  Royal inbreeding, seems to me.
OsamaBinLogin (talk) 00:04, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Infant mortality was high during the Sun King's time, especially among close cousin marriages. This doesn't indicate hemophilia, more likely just poor mother/infant care at the time, even among royals. Hemophilia in European royalty also wasn't caused by inbreeding, but, as the article notes, probably a spontaneous mutation when Victoria was conceived. She would have passed it on to her descendents no matter who she married. Piratesswoop (talk) 00:15, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Louis XIV