Talk:The Holocaust/Archive 10

message: Please contribute if you can.--Culturesoftheworld 19:07, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It was speedied, probably a good thing too. JFW | T@lk 21:47, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New [[Cultures of the World]] stub that summarizes cultures by regional variation

message: Not being familiar with this particular aspect of the Holocaust, I didn't revert this edit, but I think what's being talked about here is Jews being baptized in Christian churches; therefore, changing it to "synagogues" is incorrect. Feel free to enlighten me if I'm wrong. android79 00:36, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Nevermind, it's been fixed. android79 00:37, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edit regarding churches 

message: I propose Shoah be merged into this article. --Nick Catalano (Talk) 20:11, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shoah Merge 

message: Has there been any recent attempts to review the number of jewish losses during the war?
I think the Holocaust page should at least merit a detailed analysis on how the number was calculated.
On this page: Expulsion of Germans after World War II the number of German losses caused by the ethnic cleansing is said to have been reduced through research from the figures ( 2 million?) stated in the years immediately following the war.
Has any similar analyzis been done for the Jewish losses? If not, can the same calculation methods be applied to both population groups?
Stor stark7 14:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Review of the 6 Million figure? 

message: "Approxmiately 50% of the victims of the Holocaust were Jewish." - This is meaningless at best because of all ethnicities, only the Jews and Gypsies were automatically targeted, while most Poles, Russians, etc. were not. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 00:58, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  It's not about percentage 

message: I remember reading / watching something that stated that one of the first uses of the word "Holocaust" in relation to a mass extermination of the Jews came from records of Henry VIII's reign. I am not an expert on this topic at all, but I was wondering if this is true? If so - I think it should be added to the article.
::I don’t want to defend the character of Henry VIII who was an egoistical bully, but there was no genocide of Jews in his reign for the very simple reason there were no Jews in England during his lifetime. The entire Jewish population of England by Edward I was expelled in 1290 and no Jews were allowed in England officially until 1655. It was Cromwell of all people who allowed Jews to live in England again. Later in the reign of Elizabeth I Marranos from Spain and Portugal were allowed to settle in England as long they continued to profess to practice Catholicism in public, but if there was a secret Jewish community in Henry’s reign, it must have been very small.
::Anyhow, since Tudor England officially had no Jews, there could not have been a genocide of Jews in the Tudor period.  Some have described the persecution of Catholics during the second half when he was an Anglican as a Holocaust and an smaller number have described the persecution of Protestants during the first half of Henry’s reign when was a Catholic as a Holocaust, but either case, I don’t think it compares. First, in Tudor England, religious dissidents whatever they be Protestants or Catholics could usually save their lives by renouncing their beliefs; by contrast, for the Nazis, Jews were a “race”, that is an separate biological category from the so-called “Aryan race”. For the Nazis, if somebody had “Jewish blood”, that person was an Jew forever regardless if they practiced Judaism as a religion or not and could only stop being an Jew by dying. For this reason, Jewish converts to Christianity, Jews who became atheists and Gentiles who had too much “Jewish blood” were exterminated. Second, Henry never targeted religious dissidents for complete extermination. True, Henry had people killed for their beliefs, but it also true, that religious dissidents were sometimes only fined or mutilated or imprisoned. By contrast, after 1941-42, all Jews living under Nazi rule were targeted for extermination. I hope this answers your question.A.S. Brown 07:34, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holocaust during reign of Henry VIII 

message: If I am counting correctly, in less than 24 hours, this page has been vandalized (and reverted) 7 times.  The time between reverts has been roughly 2 minutes, with a maximum of five minutes and a minimum of less than a minute.  This seems about par for the course (it was vandalized at least nine times on January 11, for example).  Thanks to vandal whackers like RexNL, Musical Linguist, and others, the page keeps getting fixed, but this is getting ridiculous.  Compared to vandalism and reverts, the number of substantial edits has been relatively low (I have done some overhauls recently, but, aside from that, a lot of it is tweaking). I know that the next software version will allow time-locks before changes show, but that won't solve the vandalism issue.  Since most of these vandals are anonymous IP users, is there any option to only allow registered users to edit this page, or is there some other solution to this problem? Should we be more aggressive about protecting the page? Any thoughts from other editors? --Goodoldpolonius2 19:52, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Check out Talk:George W. Bush and Wikipedia talk:Semi-protection policy on ways of dealing with rampant vandalism. There's alot of it, but the basic idea is to restrict editing to registered users, which seems to stop most "drive-by vandalism". The small number of geniune edits to this artice can be seen as a mark of its quality, rather than a consequence of vandalism. --BadSeed 20:02, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, so how would people feel about semi-protecting this page and seeing what effect that has on the vandalism vs. quality edits ratio? --Goodoldpolonius2 20:20, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If there really have been that many vandalizing edits, a short semi-protection could be useful.  However, let's remember this is meant as a temporary fix only.  Superm401 | Talk
*Trust the community. There are a lot of people watching this page. Seven vandalization in 24 hours is nothing, and the repair speed is fast. (Not as fast as GWB. But it's pretty good.) --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 21:35, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Repeated Vandalism

message: At over 80k, almost three times the recommended length of a regular Wikipedia article, this article should be split up. One page cannot and should not hold so much information. It needs to point to more links and sub-pages. It should be obvious that many users will have trouble downloading and navigating such a lengthy article. Not everyone has a computer that can handle this. Would anyone mind if I start the downsizing..? Suggestions and comments would be most welcome. IZAK 11:40, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I would object very strongly to dividing this article.  This is already a main article with several dozen branches, a navigation template, and subarticles for each section, sometimes multiple ones. Plus this is a topic that is difficult to cover in less than the size already given -- especially given the constant demand for more footnotes and references.  The article size guideline is no longer about technical concerns (I don't believe anyone's browser would have difficulty handling 80k of text) and much more about readablity, but I think that the indexing is quite clear right now, with a pretty logical section set-up and flow. Additionally, attempts to remove information, like Holocaust denial or on smaller victim groups, entirely to subarticles has resulted in protests from various users in the past, and the material being re-added.  The History of the Jews in Poland was nearly 70k, and it was an FA on the main page.  I just don't think there is a neeed to do this.  --Goodoldpolonius2 15:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * Concerning your claims of Polish coöperation with the Nazis, try reading up on the Polish Secret State series, especially Armia Krajowa. --BadSeed 17:30, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

text: IZAK, first, I still do not believe this article needs to be split, and I understand that part of this reason why you want this split is that you do not like the direction of the article.  As the editor who added the materials on the death camps, killing squads, and much of the other information about fate of the Jews of Europe to an article which was previously lacking them a year ago, I understand where you are coming from.  But there are a number of constituencies here, and a fairly strong decision that the article would use the wider definition used by a wide number of scholars including non-Jewish victims as part of the Holocaust. I also disagree about removing quotations from historians -- if you look at the history of Holocaust deniers + ignorant folks coming to these pages, the additions of data from many scholarly sources seems to have made a big difference in the number of people attacking the article in substantive ways.  In short, I realize that they edits you are suggesting would substnatially change the nature and focus of the article.  Thus, I would suggest two things: 1) That you do this re-write on a temp page, as a proposal and 2) that we get some other people to weigh in on this, as you suggest (Jmabel, jpgordon, etc.). I still do not see any reason to condense this page, as I think it is fine, but I am interested in other opinions. Does that work for you? --Goodoldpolonius2 15:03, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Goodold: While you may have added important stuff, it's time to once again stand up for the Jews. The Holocaust is NOT about what happened to anyone who was killed by the Nazis, which would make that no different than what the Germans did to people in other wars such as in World War I (1914-1918) or during the Franco-Prussian War (1870-1871). This is about something entirely different (and you know it), it's about how Hitler carried out the Final Solution against the JEWS as outlined in his crazed book: Mein Kampf (1925). Sure Hitler hated the Slavs and lots of other folks (he was after all a "certified" psychopath and sociopath), but his vicious limitless hatred of the Jews knew no human bounds and his absolute determination to kill them out stood out above and beyond anything he and his Nazi pals and cohorts did to any other nation or group. This article gives way too much ground on that issue and for that reason alone those segments that deal with issues outside of the "Jewish Question" should be cut down to size or spun off permanently. You know, the killing of almost all of Europe's Jews in the Holocaust should not become a modern-day version of Christian Supersessionism whereby Christians claim to be the "New Israel" and we should not allow the Poles or anyone else to become the "New Israel of the Holocaust". Sure the Poles suffered, but the Russians suffered the most, yet at least the Russians do not have the audacity to claim they were victims of a  Holocaust because they call a spade a spade, it was a war between Germany and Russia, and just as Germany attacked Poland it attacked Russia, and Russia lost TENS of MILLIONS more people than Poland, but it's called a war between them and not a "Holocaust" by one against the other. This is very logical and was always the case until the recent rash of revisionism reared its ugly head of deliberate diabolical deadly damnable die-hard distortionism. I stand by all my other points, and I do agree that we need to get some others into this discussion, not just POV Poles. I am not disputing that historians can be quoted but there is just too much of the "talking heads" on this page. Footnotes are just as good. To the Holocaust deniers it will make no difference and to the genuinely curious you are making their (technical) lives much harder by having a page that is almost three times the size of all other pages and takes much longer to download. People don't have time to futz around. Why do you think it's ok to tie up people when it is against Wikipedia's own standards? This page is not "sacrosanct" because you wrote stuff on it, you are not the "definitive" historian or judge of the Holocaust. And even worse, you are aiding the dissemination of a distortion. We need some real NPOV input for a change and not squeezed-in comments from all the tangents related to this article. IZAK 15:48, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: IZAK, I never said that my edits were definitive, nor that the page is sacrosanct as is -- many editors have worked on this, it is merely a well-developed Wikipedia article, with all that implies.  You are proposing a wholesale restructuring of the article, including changing its focus, and I was pointing out that this version has been the result of a large amount of work by many editors, and that the size alone is not a reason to justify radically restructuring it.  Indeed the size limits are neither official guideline nor official policy, and the technical constraints that used to force it have been removed.  If the content requires a large page, then large pages are preferrable to shoddy articles -- one of the most viewed articles on Wikipedia, World War II, is 86kb long, and Featured Articles have been over 100KB (see Hugo Chavez) without objection. There is no reason the Holocaust should not merit length similar to the Venezualan president.  So, I made the reasonable (I think) suggestions that we let other editors weigh in, and that you create the new page you want at a temp location, so that it is clear what you are proposing.  Does that work?  --Goodoldpolonius2 16:05, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

text:  New motive emerges: "it's time to once again stand up for the Jews. The Holocaust is NOT about what happened to anyone who was killed by the Nazis,"  The original motive "At over 80k, almost three times the recommended length of a regular Wikipedia article, this article should be split up." has disappeared.  69.57.226.137 16:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

text:  IZAK, your confusing Polish military deaths (~60,000 in the September Campaign + ~60,000 afterwards) with the ~1,500,000 Poles who died under the Nazi occupation most, (but not all) of whom died in the same death camps as the Jews. --BadSeed 17:22, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bad Seed, that isn't exactly right, most of those Polish deaths did not occur in death camps, though some did occur in concentration and labor camps -- targeting of the Poles in general was much more selective than that of Jews.  And IZAK's point about limiting the definition of Holocaust is valid in that there are three main definitions of the Holocaust by scholars and historians: that the Holocaust refers only to the Jewish genocide; that it refers to the Jews, Roma, and handicapped (because only these groups were targeted for genocide during the Holocaust, regardless of the long-term intentions of the Nazis); or that it refers to all victims of Nazi racism, including Poles, Soviet citizens, etc.  Most scholars actually go with one of the first two options, this article is currently taking the more liberal third view, which is fine, but should be noted. --Goodoldpolonius2 17:37, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

text:  True, it was much more selective, and I guess I over-simplified and over-emphasised with the death camps. I mentioned it because IZAK seemed to classify them all as simply war-deaths. Incidentally I don't have any preferneces on whether the article includes Poles or not in the definition, I mainly wanted to clear up what looked to me like misconceptions. --BadSeed 17:59, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Chodor: It's not up to the Jews to decide anything, it's a question of OBJECTIVELY "standing up for the Jews". A big difference. IZAK 11:23, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

text: As I stated above, scholars are divided on the subject of whether the Holocaust includes non-Jewish victims and to what extent, which is why I inserted the first footnote.  We can argue it here, if we want, but are unlikely to resolve a long-running debate in the literature, and instead should stick to NPOV and NOR, as you suggest, which would seem to favor the inclusive view, with a note that this is far from universal.  On the size issue, the unofficial page (since there is no policy) suggests that notes and footnotes are not included, and that readability is paramount, since even larger articles have been made FAs before.  So the question becomes: is the current page readable? If not, that is what we should address, rather than an arbitrary size limit. --Goodoldpolonius2 17:43, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  A little bit of both: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Davies writes "Poland was subjected to the most rigorous policies of racial planning, and that the genocide of the six million Jews was largely perpetrated there in circumstances rightly described as uniquely evil. The point is these undoubted facts represent less than half the story."  He also writes about time when Poland was under Communist occupation: "official communist histography in Poland ignored ethnic complications altogether, using the state censorship to enforce a highly selective view of the wartime occupation where all crimes were attributed to 'Fascism' and all victims were described as 'Polish citizens' or 'people of various nationalities'. There was no specific mention of Jews or Catholics." 69.57.226.137 17:47, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

text:  Consider the following: the exterminations happened. You could break it down with a focus on Jewish victims and say there were 2 million non-Jewish Poles killed. You could also say that 5 million Poles were killed and that 3 million were Jewish. I agree that a question of intent does play a role in determining the correct language . I understand that Jews are the primary victims noted in Holocaust accounts. But, for example, Poles were first chronologically, and other victims exist. The Wikipedia article appears to be a blending of the Western view Davies talks about and the Easter view that had "no specific mention of Jews or Catholics." What do you think? 69.57.226.137 17:47, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

text:  I prefer the current article to the proposed replacement.  The removed sections: Resistance, Rescuers, Historical interpretations, aftermath, Impact on Culturen, and the section on victims are valueable.  NerdyJim 15:20, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: NerdyJim: Nothing has happened yet. The debate is wide open and there is room to consider all views. IZAK 07:20, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Over 80k: this article should be split 

message: In response to Goodold's suggestion please see the reduced version of this article --> The Holocaust/Contracted and add comments here. It's half the size, well under 40K, but the "Notes" needs some fixing still. Thanks. IZAK 11:23, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I prefer the current article to the proposed replacement.  The removed sections: Resistance, Rescuers, Historical interpretations, aftermath, Impact on Culturen, and the section on victims are valueable.  NerdyJim 15:20, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: NerdyJim: Nothing has happened yet. The debate is wide open and there is room to consider all views. IZAK 07:20, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Within Wikipedia limits

message: Were muslims amongst those groups who were killed during the Holocaust?  Surely Hitler would have found them to be undesirable, as he did the Jews, homosexuals, communists, etc.?  Yet I have never heard of any muslims being killed during the war. Davez621 09:02, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See Amin al-Husayni, 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian). ←Humus sapiens ну? 10:52, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that some Muslims may have been killed by the Germans as part of anti-insurgency operations in Albania and Bosnia, but there was  nothing, absolutely nothing comparable to the genocide perpetuated against the Jews. The Balkan Muslims killed by the Germans were not killed because they were Muslims, but rather because the Germans suspected they were guerillas. Moreover, a rather large number of Muslims from Bosnia and Albania fought for the Germans and were involved in the round-up and deportation of the local Jewish populations. From what I’ve read, many Nazi leaders were favorably inclined towards Islam; Himmler once stated that “Islam was a idea religion for a soldier”; he certainly won’t never had said that about Judaism. I hope this helps.A.S. Brown 05:22, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One more point; and this is truly a important one, in Nazi racial theory, Muslims were just the followers of the  religion of Islam. Thus, for the Nazis, Islam was just another religion. By contrast, in Nazi theory, Jews were NOT a religious group, but rather a so-called “racial” group. For the Nazis, what determined if one was Jewish or not was the amount of one’s “Jewish blood”, not the question of whatever practices Judaism as a religion or not. Therefore, Nazi policy towards Islam was more analogous to Nazi policy towards Christianity that it was to Nazi anti-Semitic policies, which were for the mind of the Nazis, part of an existential “racial struggle” between the alleged “Aryan race” and the alleged “Jewish race” that could only end in the complete victory and the corresponding complete destruction of the other. I hope this helps. A.S. Brown 05:24, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

text: There was no systematic targeting of Catholics as a group during Holocaust.  Catholic Poles were indeed targeted, as Poles, not as Catholics, though many religious leaders were among the Poles who were killed:  six bishops, 2,030 priests, 127 seminarians, 173 lay brothers and 243 nuns.  Who are the three million Catholics were targeted that you are referring to? --Goodoldpolonius2 19:22, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added this material explicitly to the article, changing the "Jehovah's Witness" section to a religious section. Str1977, I don't have any material on Hitler's long-term anti-Catholic plans, do you have a source for your info I could track down? --Goodoldpolonius2 20:02, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muslims? 

message: My change has been reverted back for some reason. The fact is that he isn't a historian, he's a political scientist. According to his page here on Wikipedia: "Daniel Jonah Goldhagen (born 1959) is an American political scientist", if he has a history degree, then that should be mentioned on his page here. What exactly is gained by describing him as something he is not? --Edward Wakelin 03:09, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't revert your edit so I can't answer your question. You are correct that Goldhagen is a political scientist, not a historian by training, but I think that people refer to Goldhagen as a historian because he was written historical works such as Hitler’s Willing Executioners and A Moral Reckoning. I suppose in a more broader sense of someone who writes books dealing with historical topics, then Goldhagen is a historian, through many historians in the narrower sense don’t consider him to be a proper historian. I hope this helps. A.S. Brown 05:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Daniel Goldhagen isn't a historian 

message: There is no histoirical proof to that story whatsover. I think some people can get a little carried away with this. The Nazi's did some dreadful things but shops stocking 'skin gloves'? I don't think so. 
Detmold 12:51 24 Feb 2006
the nazis also used skins of the jews for gloves and other stuff and was considered luxurious, especially if the skin was marked with the number on it
MichaelHa 02:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While the Holocaust was definitely horrifying stuff, to say the least, I don't think claims about clothing made of human skin are true.  There is a Straight Dope article discussing the topic. Superm401 - Talk 18:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  horrifying stuff 

message: I'm not a 'revisionist' or anything, but our opening statement says the phrase "six million" is now almost universally interpreted as referring to the Jewish victims of the Holocaust, though estimates by historians using, among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from five million to seven million. which isn't true, and I'm going to reword.  It's true there are Nazi records, meticulous records, but nowhere to the tune of 6 million.  That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but we are definitely not estimating the number "6 million" based on Nazi records. Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 08:08, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It says: "among other sources". Studies based on various sources, including Nazi records, show that the number 6 million refers to Jews killed. --Chodorkovskiy 12:37, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Most researchers' methodologies have involved some variation on cross-refrencing Nazi details on train transports, Nazi reports(the Eisantzgruppen reports give about 1.5 million Jews shot in 1941, the Hoefle telegram another 1.7 million killed in three camps in 1942, etc.), material from pre-war census figures, German inventories of looted material from the camps, and assorted testimonies and photographs to arrive at the number, I think that qualifies as "historians using, among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself." The relevant point is that these numbers were not randomly generated, but used as source material the Nazis own information. --Goodoldpolonius2 16:37, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Erm?

message: A recent edit changed the cross-referenced page in the Arabic wikipedia from ar:محرقة to ar:هولوكوست.  Could someone have a look and make sure that the newly linked article is the appropriate one? It seems to use some pretty graphic pictures, so please be warned. It might also be helpful to add some of the material and pictures from the English version to the Arabic one, for anyone who is interested in doing so. --Goodoldpolonius2 18:27, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They just added an explanation that "holocaust" at ar.wikipedia is the Jewish محرقة, in a more general holocaust article (was محرقة, but now redirected) that connects our holocaust disambiguization (includes Chinese, Ukranian holocaust etc.). I think things are developing there. I donno for example where they put the Roma and other genocides by the Nazis. gidonb 18:50, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I must add that my Arabic is rather basic. I would like to see the translation of these words. gidonb 21:07, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In my experience "holocust" is the term most commonly used in Arabic for the Shoah, and it's a term borrowed for this purpose. "Muhraqa" means a burnt sacrifice and this corresponds to the original meaning of the English term, I suppose, but I'm not familiar with it in this context. On ar.wikipedia it now redirects to "ibada", which means something like "extermination" or "annihilation" (ibada jinsiyya is the normal term for genocide in Arabic, if I'm not mistaken). This is a disambiguation page which says that the term "ibada" refers to the policy of organized mass killing of particular groups, and that the term "mahruqa" is used in relation to the "ibada al-yahudiyya". It then lists a few different cases, such as the Armenian Genocide, all termed "ibada" in Arabic and most of them given with an English translation using the word Holocaust. Palmiro | Talk 14:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Palmiro, thank you for the explanations. So muchraka is gone and ibada is on. All these seem the regular course of naming and renaming, just like we do here. Regards, gidonb 05:01, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Arabic speakers

message: Hmm, here is a posting at a forum I frequent that has convinced me Nazi may be more appropriate after all:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
I thought Bormann was the ultimate control of the Party, and that its political muscle, the SA, continued on to 1945 but without any real power - and certainly no ability to set foreign policy.
::Posted by easy-v - It seems to me that calling it the "German Holocaust" would be misleading, tying it to the German nationality and geography, whereas "Nazi Holocaust" is more specific, as it denotes a historical period and identifies those responsible for it. "German" would also, by omission, seem to absolve and distance the rest of the ethnicities that participated in it. 
:::Posted by Michael Dorosh - That's the best answer I've heard yet; if by using "Nazi" one is describing the event in historical context only (ie during the period of Nazi Germany) then it does indeed make sense. Your last point is apt as well. Thanks.
:Thanks to all for the discussion, here and elsewhere. Still not convinced the word is a great descriptor but since it has evolved thus in the historical community I suppose we are stuck with it. :) Michael Dorosh 20:54, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nazi as reference to a period of history

message: In one of the paragraphs someone stated that 90% of the polish jewish population was killed, that being 6 million people. I reverted that. 6 million jew were killed, not only polish, but also jews from all other countries are accounted for in this number. So I changed it back to 3 million, I think the number was before I edited it, and wrote at the end of the paragraph that a total of 6 million jews were killed. It is easy to mix the numbersJordskjelv 02:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  3 or 6 million polish jews 

message: I was surprised to find this here. If someone wants to try to back this up with some credible sources, I'd welcome reinserting whatever is accurate but I know those purported quotes below are bogus. Infact the quote about "crushing the Chruch like a toad" is attributed not to Hitler but by the Pope in 1942 talking about the Communists (to him) being worse than Hitler's NSDAP: ‘Yes, the communist danger does exist, but at this time the NSDAP danger is the more serious. They want to destroy the church and crush it like a toad.’
Cornwell, p. 261 and can be found here: 
The quote, which there is a few variations seems to come from Theodor Groppe, Ein Kampf um Recht und Sitte (2.) (Trier, 1959), pp. 10, 56. But, this is mentioned as hearsaywith Hitler supposedly also denying he ever said that when supposedly questioned by the Pope, who was told of the comment. The quote has changed a bit and originaly was "poisonous toad." There is enough well documented quotes by Hitler that we should not have to use these qustionable specious ones. 
Infact, virtually all anti-Christian quotes about Hitler come from Martin Bormann's "Hitler's Table Talk", an exclusively hearsay compilation of "private" conversations in which Hitler was supposedly warned beforehand that everything he said would be recorded for posterity, yet he lowered his guard and supposedly revealed his true feelings anyway. Naturally, these feelings contrast violently with other public or private speeches or conversations, and mysteriously enough, no original documents or recordings can be found (see the excellent discussion of this book at ). Another over-used source is Hermann Rauschning's "The Voice of Destruction: Hitler Speaks", which was already so heavily quoted by 1945 that it was explicitly mentioned and dismissed in OSS documents because of its unreliable nature. In fact, May 1983, Swiss historian Wolfgang Haenel formally gathered together all of the criticisms of Rauschning's book and resoundingly debunked it at a presentation at the annual conference of the Ingolstadt Contemporary History Research Center, showing (among other things) that Hitler was not physically present at the times and places indicated, and that the financially desperate Rauschning was paid a staggering sum of money to produce the book by French and American sources who wished to use it as propaganda. 
Postwar Christian apologists have put perhaps their greatest efforts into creating the myth that Adolf Hitler was not a Christian, or even anti-Christian.  An entire cottage industry seems to have sprung up around the desire to perpetuate this myth, and while its motivations are perfectly understandable (who would want to be associated with Hitler in any way?), its dishonesty is unjustifiable. The truth, however uncomfortable, is still the truth.
In death, Hitler has become larger than life. He has become a weapon of sorts, to be used by propagandists as a way of sanctifying themselves while vilifying others. By painting Hitler as something other than he was, these propagandists try to cast doubt on the morality of their opponents, and shore up their own claims of superior morality (all in service to the stubborn and intolerant belief that morality is ultimately decided by religious affiliation rather than individual attitudes). Entire books have been filled with fictitious Hitler quotes (usually attributed to personal conversations) which are still widely disseminated despite having been thoroughly debunked1 (of course, since many of these quotes support the notion that Hitler was anti-Christian, it's no surprise that they are still in such widespread use).
However, without such questionable sources as uncorroborated hearsay accounts of private conversations, we discover a rather interesting phenomenon: the Hitler's seemingly conflicted statements suddenly become very consistent, and that is he was not anti-Christian he only had problems with the role between Church and State, his view of Jesus being an Aryan not a Jew, and having its center in Berlin, not Rome, but a facist Christian-State was very much a part of his Nazi society. The removed, uncited, section, below:
"Plans were designed by the Nazi government to totally exterminate the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church and the anti-Nazi Protestant denominations. These plans were however deemed inopportune during the course of the war, and therefore postponed to after the assumed 'Final Victory' of the Axis forces. Hitler clearly spoke out in favour of the destruction of the Roman Catholic Church when he said: "Ich will die Katholische Kirche zertreten wie eine Kröte!" ('I want to crush the Catholic Church like a toad') Goebbels for his part predicted a 'final solution' for Christianity (which was considered "a Jewish doctrine") in the future new order of European society, but stressed this would cause too many problems if brought about during the war." 
Giovanni33 14:03, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed passage

message: User:Tlumaczek wants to change Nazis to German Nazis. Seems to me this is a redundancy, especially in this context. Take a look at this change to see what I mean. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 14:35, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Obstinacy with that You combat word "german" suggests that You think not only about "redundancy". But, ok. "Clearness of language über alles". --Tlumaczek 15:01, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "German Nazis"