Talk:Jamalul Kiram III

message: De facto or de jure sultan? And how can he be sultan "alongside" Ismael Kiram II? Joint sultans, perhaps?
And what about the status of Sultan Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram? isnt' he supposed to be the legal sultan?203.184.41.226 (talk) 04:39, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: CATEGORIAL; The sovereignty of the Sulu Sultanate was already usurped by the 1861 Jamalul Agdam, the latter who presented himself as the Sulu Sultan to the two British Subjects and signing the 1878 lease treaty agreement, without the knowledge nor consent of the reigning  Sulu Sultan Pulalun who was at the hinterlands. Other usurpers succeeded to the present having came to terms with foreign administering powers by the 1915 Carpenter agreement, 1963 and 1969 irrevocable power-of-attorney to foreign powers in favor of the latter; thus being recognized and or receiving lease rental/cession money annually. So,the Sultanate is still existing with the heirs of Sultan Pulalun thru his Adinda or Prince Heir=apparent (Maharaja Adinda Taup), with all due respect!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.90.152 (talk) 01:15, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Confusion

message: The section titled "Royal duties" is full of nonsense.  
"Jamalul Kiram III was a member of the Ruma Betchara (Council of the Sultan) during the reign of his late uncle, Sultan Esmail Kiram (1962–1974). He acted as 'Interim Sultan' during the absence of his father Sultan Punjungan Kiram while in Sabah (1974–1981) and proclaimed in 1984 as 33rd Sultan of Sulu and was crowned on 15 June 1986 in Jolo, Sulu."  First, I can find no evidence that a "Council of the Sultan" exists, nor that it has any authority or powers.  Second, claiming that Jamalul Kiram III was "crowned" is nonsensical.  Who crowned him?  There is no reference to a source, so it should be removed.  Third, according to the Philippines Gazette, the official Philippines State organ, Sultan Mohammad Esmail Kiram I ceded all territories in North Borneo to the Republic of the Philippines in 1962http://www.gov.ph/1962/04/24/cession-and-transfer-of-the-territory-of-north-borneo-by-his-highness-sultan-mohammad-esmail-kiram-sultan-of-sulu-acting-with-the-consent-and-aprroval-of-the-ruma-bechara-in-council-assembled-to/, which was further reinforced by the Manila Accord.  Since the death of Sultan Mohammad Mahakuttah A. Kiram in 1986, the Philippine Government has refused to acknowledge the legitimacy of any of the rival claimants to the Sultanatehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sultans_of_Sulu so to claim that Kiram's father was the Sultan, that he inherited the Sultanate or that he was "crowned" is nonsensical and naturally, totally lacking in cited sources.
"Kiram forged the century-old relationships between Sulu and China during a royal visit to Dezhou, Shandong Province, People' Republic of China in September 1999 with an 87-man entourage. The visit concluded with the signing of the agreement between Hebei Province and the Sulu Sultanate on agricultural technology exchange.  Source?  Nope.  Did China view it as a "royal visit"?  Did the State recognize him in any way?  Apparently not.
"He also forged bilateral relationship beyween the Don Sasagawa Foundation of Japan and the Sultan Jamalul Ahlam Foundation."  I can find no record of a "Don Sasagawa Foundation" (does it mean the Sasakawa Peace Foundation founded by former yakuza Ryoichi Sasakawa?  And terms like "forged" and "bilateral" are clearly intended to suggest political legitimacy.
"He was the one responsible for the release of the American and the German nationals from the captivity of the lost command of the MNLF in 1984."  Again, no source cited, and a Google search turns up zero evidence that such a thing happened.
"He established livelihood programs in Sulu, Tawi-Tawi and Palawan through the Sulu-Marine and Seven Seas Corporations."  What are "livelihood programs"?  Just plain employment of locals?  Kiram described himself as "President and Chairman of the Board, Seven Seas Corporation" and "President and Chairman of the Board Sulu Marine Corporation(1989-1993)" here:http://www.inquirer.net/specialreports/inquirerpolitics/view.php?db=1&article=20070223-51200.  However, I can find no evidence that either corporation existed.
"He was also the president of the Philippine Pencak Silat Association and once served as a board member in the Philippine Olympic Committee."  Neither of those are even remotely "royal duties"; indeed, most who have held those positions have not been claimants to any nobility or royalty.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bricology (talk • contribs) 21:19, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: "Royal duties"?!

message: Update on Sabah standoff
Oct. 20, 2013
 
By invictus1819
Sultan Kiram III Dies, Asks Siblings To Pursue Sabah's Repossession From Malaysia
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-932759
http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1170481/sultan-sulu-jamalul-kiram-iii-continues-fight-sabah
https://raissarobles.com/2013/03/03/did-you-know-sultan-jamalul-kiram-iii-was-once-a-bayanihan-dancer-and-a-radio-announcer/
Rajmaan (talk) 20:15, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Sabah

message: This page has so many issues... where to start? Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 10:40, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: What a nonsense, you continuously being bias and remove a sourced content from reliable source of Google Books, as well labelling user who revert your "bias contribution" as "content dispute and breaching three revert rule while it is not, now asking "where to start"?? Very funny, now I'm going to report you to administrator. ~ Muffin Wizard ;) 10:48, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

text: There are statements that are controversial depending on political position (Malaysian or Philippine), like if he is a "self-proclaimed" Sultan or an actual one. There are other issues, like whether the Sulu Sultanate sill exist or not and who is the legitimate Sultan. But the most pressing  issue is if the Malaysian narrative or Philippine one is the one to be followed or neither or both. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 07:11, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: If Malaysian reliable sources say one thing and reliable sources in the Philippines say another, then it is crystal clear to me that the neutral point of view requires that we summarize and report both points of view, without taking sides. The issue of whether or not the sultanate still exists seems pretty straightforward. Which governments recognize this sultanate? State that neutrally without taking sides in Wikipedia's voice, and let the reader decide. It is not our job to adjudicate nationalistic disputes, but instead to describe them neutrally. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 08:37, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Comment 

message: @User:Cullen328, the problem is that the Malaysian sources tend to violate WP:BLP and WP:Neutrality policies (you know defiunct, self-syled, "air quotes") there is no way for middlegorund. The best solution is to use outside sources such as Al Jazeera, The Guardian ,and the BBC. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 11:08, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: BLP and neutrality are policies that govern the content we write here on Wikipedia, . They do not apply to the sources we cite, thoough high quality sources are always preferred. It may be necessary to cite a POV pushing source to give balance and to show both sides of the story, and that does not violate policy. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 18:49, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

text: @User:Cullen328, please comment. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 04:57, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I want an answer from you. Why you just keep depending on ?? ~ Muffin Wizard ;) 05:07, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No comment. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 05:10, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Both of you should dial down the confrontational attitude and work together to accurately summarize both sides of the dispute. If you take the attitude that "my side is entirely right and must dominate the article and the other side is completely wrong and must be excluded from the article", then you are deliberately violating the neutral point of view and may need to be topic banned from this and all related articles. So start collaborating and compromising now, because the confrontational language above is not acceptable from either side. Pay attention and heed my advice,  and . I am 100% serious. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:12, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

text: Thanks for the response , I just need an explanation from  without just giving "a lot of excuse" to my question and keep changing the fact without giving any "valid explanation". ~ Muffin Wizard ;) 05:16, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

text: Any editor can answer your question. The policy based answer is that the article must accurately summarize both sides of the dispute and must be written from the neutral point of view. Accordingly, comments such as accusing another country's media of "always publishing nonsense news which full of lies and bias" are entirely unproductive and counter to neutrality. So, abandon that attitude, and start collaborating and compromising. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I admit and retract that word. Just need a response from Shhhwwww!! on his view on Kiram III based on neutral point of view. ~ Muffin Wizard ;) 05:33, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I am willing to collaborate. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 06:12, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Late comment

message: The article has quite a few "citation needed" tags. Please try to find reliable sources (either from Malaysia or the Philippines or elsewhere) that discuss these unreferenced claims. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:24, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  A good place to start 

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