Talk:Aleister Crowley/Archive 2

message: I aim to move the last paragraph in Biography section which refers to Crowley's "death and last words" to Rumors section. There have cited about 6 contradictory explanations without pointing to even a single reference. It is not suitable for a standard biography at all. Please vote on it.
--Sepand 17:31, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote for moving Crowley's "death and last words" in Biography to Rumors section

message: Can we not come to some agreement about Crowley’s consumption of sperm, shit, menstrual blood, and worse. 
The man was a loathsome, disgusting, repulsive, despicable human being. He would have liked to hear that. He wanted people like me and you to see him like that. He loved being called the wickedest man in the world and that title was all he ever really wanted in life. 
I respect him, in the same way that I respect the Marquis De Sade, neither of them could help themselves and when you read of their early life you can understand what made them the way they were. But can those who want to censor the aspects of his life that he took the most pride in really say the same - that they respect him?  
The fact of the matter is he advocated the ritual sacrifice of young boys. There is no way around it he couldn't have been more explicit. There is no way he could have meant anything else! and I would be delighted to debate the subject with you here.
He wasn't a chess genius and never could have been. He wasn't a genius of any kind. He was intelligent and had ability and if he had applied himself could have become a minor literary figure. He was intelligent enough to realise that he didn't have it in him to make it to the very top in literature of chess so he decided instead to seek notoriety.
Whatever it is you want from Crowley it is not him. You want a genius who turned his back on the world and devoted his life to esoteric spirituality it is not Crowley you are looking for. Crowley would have despised you, don't you agree? You seem to want to turn him into some respectable bourgeoisie school m'am 
You want to be careful because if you really do believe he is watching you from the beyond then you can be sure he will not like the fact that you deny him in public. 
We can all play silly buggers. If you go on deleting my contributions I can play the same game and we won't have a Aleister Crowley entry at all. So be a man about it! if what I say is true then leave it alone and discuss your differences with me here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bb1230 (talk • contribs) 16:28, April 5, 2006  (UTC)
*A few things. First of all, familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. Second, it's quite amusing when a sucker (see chapter LXIX in Liber 333) falls for one of the many traps in "Magick in Theory and Practice"; my favorite always was the footnote regardig the "sacrifice of young boys", which even the slightest of penetrating intellects will immediately understand to be a reference to masturbation. But here's not the place to discuss such things; let me suggest one of the many Crowley-oriented bulletin boards. Regarding the rest of your position, please also familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's policy concerning original research. If you wish to cite reputable sources regarding Crowley and his place in the history of 19th/20th century Western occultism, or any other aspect of his life and legacy, feel free; but your personal conclusions are pretty much irrelevant. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:42, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "As he wanted to be known" 

message: Taking out: "Crowley was a habitual drug user and also maintained a meticulous record of his drug-induced experiences, much of which influenced his novel, Diary of a Drug Fiend. Towards the end of his life he became addicted to opium, his favourite narcotic drug." While true, having this much info in the intro makes it sound like his drug use was one of his primary charateristics (it wasn't, not compared to everything else he did in his life). This info most certainly needs to go in the article and expanded upon, but in a sub-section, perhaps dedictated to his drug habits and experiments. Somecallmetim 20:42, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro needs work 

message: EDIT: I have put this up on the peer review page. Please come by and join the conversation. –Frater5 (talk/con) 23:03, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Did nothing happen in 1919? ---J.S (t|c) 05:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The biography section is awful

message: I've been trying to look for evidence of the Stele of Revealing article as well as the Ankh-af-na-khonsu article, and alas, I can find none outside of Thelemites. I do believe its needed to establish credibility. I'm asking for help locating any of the following. 
1. The Museums its located in, as well as evidence it was in Boulaq, which I believe now is called the Egytptian Muesum in Cairo.
2. Sources for the priest Ankh-af-na-khonsu. ANYTHING that validates this guy existed in human form, or usage of the form of name within egypt.
To clarify greatly, wheres the evidence this isnt all made up? I can only find resources about thelema, by thelemites. The three egyptologists given on one page looked fishy, and I can't find any info that they really did oversee, or translate the Stele.
Also, the Stele of Revealing looks alot like one of the tablets or " Stelea of Ra".
Zos 18:16, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stele of Revealing 

message: No need to go crazy with the  tags.  1 at the end of a sentence is enough to get the point acrost.  You migh also wanna think about useing the  tag in place of the CN tag in some cases. ---J.S (t|c) 16:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, only one citation would be needed if that single reference covered all those issues.  I see it's been removed... that's good I guess.  Let it live on in the history until someone finds some sourcing. ---J.S (t|c) 19:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  over {{tl|citation needed}} 

message: Thanks for the feedback regarding the need for cited sources documenting Crowley's racism and sexism. I have added them, as per the several requests, directly under the section on Chess. Cordially, Catherineyronwode 03:04, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cited sources added, per request 

message: Ok, something maybe Frater5 missed when Catherine (Cat) edited the page...
"Crowley was a habitual drug user and also maintained a meticulous record of his drug-induced experiences with laudanum, cocaine, hashish, alcohol, ether, and heroin, much of which influenced his novel, Diary of a Drug Fiend. Allan Bennett, Crowley's mentor, was said to have given him instruction regarding the magical properties of intoxicants."
She added a number of drugs Crowley used. Now, I diagree with this b/c the way she added it in, makes it look like all of these drugs (that she added) influenced the writing of Diary of a Drug Fiend! Is there actual evidence that all of these drugs did this? There is no citation, and I'm asking that this be removed if none can be found. Does anyone else have an issue with it before I revert it? Zos 00:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drugs Section 

message: there's some unclarity in the story as I found in Confessions as to whether Crowley *played* the university president in chess or was in fact himself the president (is this explained through a conflation of multiple quotes?). 
"In my second year I was president of the university and had beaten such first-rate amateurs as Gunston and Cole. Outside the master class, Atkins was my only acknowledged superior. ... <2 hours / day practice mentioned> ...." (Confessions, p. 140)
somehow the Chess section of the Crowley page came to this state:
"He later joined the university chess club at Cambridge, where, he says, he beat the president in his freshman year and practised two hours a day towards becoming a champion..." 
what is the reality of what Crowley was saying? was he the president of the university???
surely this is some kind of error? it should be revised to reflect the reality or re-cited.
I made a start by  what I could find in my library here and, in the case of Diary of a Drug Fiend, an online source for the ISBN (amazon.com) in the 'Chess' and 'Prejudice' sections, correcting some serious page number problems while I was at it. some titles may also be switched ('Confessions' for 'Magick Without Tears' for example). 333 bo-bo 05:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chess and Prejudice 

message: Okay, folks, as the request for secondary sources is not all that difficul to satisfy, i have added the comments of Crowley's student and editor, Israel Regardie, who clearly explained why he excised Crowley's "nasty" and "malicious" anti-Semitic "Preface to Sephir Sephiroth" from the Weiser collection of "777" -- and i have included, as a fair counterpoint, a short quote from the material that Regardie cut out. Since Crowley's "Preface" in turn refers to a manuscript by Sir Richard Burton, i have also appended a brief footnote and two ext links (one to the BBC) that explain the Burton MS which Crowley cited as proof that the Pogroms then ongoing in Russia were a defense against Jewish cannibalism. 
I hope this satisfies you, Zos and Frater5. It is far more shocking than what was first proposed, which was a simple external link to a site that collected some mild samples of racism. Now you have got your secondary source, and we'll see if you can live with it. 
Cordially, Catherineyronwode 08:25, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can find some well-sourced discussions that counter what cat has found, please include them; I've certainly never seen any, and I'm pretty well versed in Crowleyana. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 14:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because a POV exists dosn't mean it can't be presented in a nutral manner.  If there isn't a counter-point then we can't talk about it. I'm glad we have a secondary source now. Thanks Catherine.---J.S (t|c) 17:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regardie as a secondary source  

message: :Crowley made numerous public expressions typically considered racist, nationalist, and gender-bias to <stike>large</stike>his audience<stike>s</stike> through the written word.
I change the wording of the first paragraph (seen above).  I tried to remove the tone of "here's how it is" and replaced it with "here's what it seems like and then here's the facts".  I don't think that sentence needs any citations because it is clearly cited latter on. "typically considered" could be slightly problematic, but I think that it's a "the world is flat" type of statement. Even people who have no problem with the word "nigger" would agree that in general it is "typically considered" a statement seen as racist. 
Anyway... what do you think? ---J.S (t|c) 17:26, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm I didn't really think of that part. "large audiences" is fairly subjective. How about we change "large" to "his"? ---J.S (t|c) 17:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why even have the phrase at all? Who else would he be talking or writing to besides his audiences, regardless of their size? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 18:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It sounds better. Facts/figures aren't the only thing to consider. I could be wrong, I'm not realy "married" to it. ---J.S (t|c) 18:16, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It sounds like verbiage added to an essay to increase the word count, sez me. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 18:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhapse.  I kinda think it flows better.  Change it if you want.  Or we can wait to see what others think. But like I said, I only care a tiny amount. :) ---J.S (t|c) 18:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just glad that sources were found to support the issue. And with pressure from me and others, the sections on this article are now looking better, with every small edit. Zos 18:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  racism section 

message: I've heard about space issues a number of times...now I don't wish to remove anything at all to conserve space. However, I think I can fix the problem. I'm moving the bio secrion to its own page. Frater5 has requested the bio section can be improved on, I believe, on the peer review as well as on this talk page. I'm not sure about the sources, so if someone can move the sources for the bio section after me it will be appreciated. I hope this helps in adding more info to this article. Zos 23:46, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok. Bio moved. I'm not very good with this. So I may have made a few mistakes in this process that I'm hoping will be fixed by others. I mean no harm if I did make a mistake. Zos 23:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Space Issues 

message: Crowley may have had other prejudices against people of various races, and his derogatory application of the term "nigger" to Indians and Italians suggests he had a prejudice against Africans as well. I think this one has to go. "May have had" and "suggests" are not proper material for Wikipedia. Anyone "may have had" other prejudices.  --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 06:13, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a slight issue, but I'm not sure how it can be worded better. ---J.S (t|c) 06:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Slight"? We don't get to speculate.  (And the use of "nigger" to mean "any peoples darker than a tanned Briton" means nothing but that he was using common vernacular of his period.) --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Back to improving the article... 

message: It's really really weird for almost all of his biography to be in a sub article and for this one to be filled up with what are essentially sidebars. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 06:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The biography relay should be here and other stuff should be on "See Also" articles. I mean... that's kinda the main thing.... the biography I mean. ---J.S (t|c) 06:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh yeah. I did that. There were issues of space. I was under the assumption that a few of us we going to work on the Bio and there isnt enough room for that. Plus, other are saying they are going to add more to this article, and state they can't because there wasnt enough space. If the bio needs to be put back then ok. Please see the area on this talk page for "space issues". Zos 06:22, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd also like to state that, most of the time this article was teetering to and fro the standard size limit. If the bio needs to be brought back then so be it. I was only trying to solve the problem of space. Zos 06:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The whole shape of this article 

message: Catherine added a quote from the Book of the Law, where it states that:
"My number is 11, as all their numbers who are of us. "
Here's what I do not like about this. First, she quotes it, then adds a citation needed. Second, crowley did write the book, but its the character who was saying this. So I think the statement that was made needs to be rewritten. And here is the source for it.
Book of the Law --Section 1:60. My number is 11, as all their numbers who are of us. The Five Pointed Star, with a Circle in the Middle, & the circle is Red. My colour is black to the blind, but the blue & gold are seen of the seeing. Also I have asecret glory for them that love me. 
Zos 06:51, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aleister_Crowley#Miscellany