Talk:AFI's 100 Years...100 Heroes & Villains/Archive 1

message: These Lists have been edited and are no longer correct. If you look on the AFI site it shows that Vader isn't number one, he is number three, after Hannibal Lecter and the guy from Psycho
Gavin Scott 02:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Wooooow

message: ===Copyright infringement?===
Just listed this at Wikipedia:Possible copyright infringements. This is a non-obvious selection and ordering of items, so it's copyrightable. A list of our own selections of heroes and villains would not be problematic. Unfortunately, this one is AFI's version and they own the rights to it. The article itself doesn't need to be deleted but the list does, so I've edited the list out of the article. Jamesday 17:15, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Page Discussion

message: Just listed this at Wikipedia:Possible copyright infringements. This is a non-obvious selection and ordering of items, so it's copyrightable. A list of our own selections of heroes and villains would not be problematic. Unfortunately, this one is AFI's version and they own the rights to it. The article itself doesn't need to be deleted but the list does, so I've edited the list out of the article. Jamesday 17:15, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyright infringement?

message: Freddy Krueger isn't human? His Wikipedia entry sure says so..... – (empoor) 14:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not human 

message: Does vader ever use a firearm on screen? He uses the blasters on his figher craft a fair bit but a firearm is handheld and gunpowder driven according to wiktionary at least. It could be that no top ten villain uses a firearm.Scarlet 13:30, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Firearms Trivia 

message: ===Travis Bickle===
How can anyone think that Travis was a villain?  The only serious actions he makes in the movie are positive -- he saves a young girl from prostitution!  I can't take the list seriously after reading that. 71.83.51.12 19:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the American Film Institute, and the producers of the James Bond films are American.DonQuixote 18:35, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Take it up with the AFI. Qutezuce 10:13, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, if we're pointing out flaws, I find Travis Bickle's inclusion MUCH more inaccurate...if anything he's an antihero, but a villain?  But however, this is not the fault of Wikipedia, but of the AFI, as Qutezuce pointed out.Eric Sieck 03:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It's just the opinion of a group of people. If I were to assamble such a list, it would be a lot different. I too think some things are wrong about this list, but it's all a matter of opinion. Therefore, it can never be right. --Vincent de Ruijter 03:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

text: The Martians from Mars Attacks! should be mentioned too, by that standard.  One of their ships goes out of its way to topple the Washington Monument onto a troop of boy scouts. But more likely, the heavies in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington are too stereotypical to leave any lasting impression.  Personally, I'd take Smith off the heroes list, too, just for being such an idiot.  If all freshman Senators acted like that, Washington would be even more screwed up than it already is. BryanEkers 03:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Mitchum was much scarier, and he was there first. Clarityfiend 19:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: scarier than De Niro ? :-0 . Nice list anyway. Amoruso 00:46, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Article mentions both incarnations. Original nomination from AFI specifically mentions Mitchum; de Niro's movie gets a mention ("Also appeared in..."), but de Niro himsself doesn't. AFI crew must have found the elder Robert more frightening. Or maybe they had just finished watching "The Winds of War" on HDtv. --SigPig 04:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ranking Gripes

message: How can anyone think that Travis was a villain?  The only serious actions he makes in the movie are positive -- he saves a young girl from prostitution!  I can't take the list seriously after reading that. 71.83.51.12 19:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Travis Bickle

message: Of course the list isn't going to change.  But anyone feel that Woo-jin from Oldboy would be a good candidate for the villains list?  Except for the fact that Oldboy isn't an American movie.  I still think he makes a darn good villain.
Agreed, without a doubt... Woo-jin was great.  71.83.51.12 19:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oldboy's Woo-jin 

message: James Bond and the actors who played him aren't American so why is he on the list
Dudtz 7/22/05 3:36 PM EST
:It's the American Film Institute, and the producers of the James Bond films are American.DonQuixote 18:35, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  American movie Heros and Villains 

message: Why is Darth Vader on this list. If you take the character from all six films, he is NOT a villain, but a tragic hero. So he should not be included on this list. However, if it were a list of antagonist and proganist, then that would be a different thing all together.
:Take it up with the AFI. Qutezuce 10:13, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, if we're pointing out flaws, I find Travis Bickle's inclusion MUCH more inaccurate...if anything he's an antihero, but a villain?  But however, this is not the fault of Wikipedia, but of the AFI, as Qutezuce pointed out.Eric Sieck 03:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It's just the opinion of a group of people. If I were to assamble such a list, it would be a lot different. I too think some things are wrong about this list, but it's all a matter of opinion. Therefore, it can never be right. --Vincent de Ruijter 03:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Darth Vader

message: ...as a hero (of course), but why not Jim Taylor as one of the top villains?  If I recall correctly (should I put one of those *Spoiler Warning* things here?  My first time), he sends his goons out to dispose of the "Boy Rangers" in order to obstruct their pursuit of the truth/justice/American Dream... I mean, he literally calls in a hit on the Boy Scouts!  That's just plain evil, and if that doesn't make someone a villain for the ages, then nothing does.
:The Martians from Mars Attacks! should be mentioned too, by that standard.  One of their ships goes out of its way to topple the Washington Monument onto a troop of boy scouts. But more likely, the heavies in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington are too stereotypical to leave any lasting impression.  Personally, I'd take Smith off the heroes list, too, just for being such an idiot.  If all freshman Senators acted like that, Washington would be even more screwed up than it already is. BryanEkers 03:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jefferson Smith is up there... 

message: I mean, how can a guy who eats people, get first place. Then Norman Bates, who plas some Psycho get second place. Darth Vader is memborable then does two????
Pece Kocovski 07:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: How can Hannibal lecter get first place? 

message: Number 28 on the villains list is Max Cady from Cape Fear. But we have a problem: the AFI's list doesn't clearly say which version of the movie is being used. Is it Robert Mitchum in the 1962 version or Robert De Niro in the 1991 version? It doesn't seem right for Wikipedia to arbitrarily say which version is being referred to if AFI is ambiguous. -Phoenixrod 03:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mitchum was much scarier, and he was there first. Clarityfiend 19:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: scarier than De Niro ? :-0 . Nice list anyway. Amoruso 00:46, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Article mentions both incarnations. Original nomination from AFI specifically mentions Mitchum; de Niro's movie gets a mention ("Also appeared in..."), but de Niro himsself doesn't. AFI crew must have found the elder Robert more frightening. Or maybe they had just finished watching "The Winds of War" on HDtv. --SigPig 04:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cape Fear

message: I don't know about you, but I personally find the exclusion of Hugo Weaving's "Agent Smith" from the Matrix Trilogy kind of upsetting.  I mean, if this list has to do with a villain's popularity, Mr. Smith is a no-brainer.  Also, while I've only seen the first Matrix movie, (I've heard I'm not missing much by not watching the others) Weaving's portrayal of the agent is great, and memorable to boot.
Ah, well, nothing we can do about it.  (oobugtalk/contrib 20:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor ol' Mr. Smith 

message: why is batman a villain?
:He's not supposed to be, someone has been vandalizing the list. Brash 01:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  batman 

message: Before you read this, read below 'Up for debate'and then take the next part how it was meant to be taken: as a joke.
This list keeps getting vandalized by people who don't understand that their opinion doesn't matter when it pertains to AFI's top 100 list.  I suggest we semi-protect this article to prevent any further vandalism.  After all, what's the point in further altering a list that will not change?  Until then, I am going to go through the article and fix all of the vandalized entries.  For everyone's convenience, the following is a list of all the entries that have been vandalized, or are just merely incorrect, or just simply incorrect:
*Villains
** (26) Batman (Supposed to be: Cody Jarrett)
** (30) Harry Callahan (Supposed to be: Travis Bickle; I'm going to attribute this change to 71.83.51.12.)
** (45) Satan (Supposed to be: The Joker)
** (47) Tony Montana (Supposed to be: Tony Camonte; this character's actually from the 1932 movie Scarface, not the 1983 film of the same name.)
*Heroes
** (17) Travis Bickle (Supposed to be: Harry Callahan)
** (24) Hannibal Lecter (Supposed to be: Thelma Dickinson & Louise Sawyer)
** (27) Alex DeLarge (Supposed to be: Bob Woodward & Carl Bernstein)
** (46) Scarlet O’Hara (Supposed to be: Batman)
Brash 01:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that would be a good idea. I block-reverted a bunch of vandalism, I must have missed a few. It's hard to keep up all the time, which I think the vandals are counting on. -- SigPig |SEND - OVER 04:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of this vandalism comes from sheer idiocy, but it also appears that a lot of it is malicious, or at the very least mischievous, in nature. (Replacing Batman with Scarlet O'Hara and The Joker with Satan?  Come on.)  We should semi-protect this page to prevent further vandalism. Brash 06:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: From the article's "trivia" section:
:T. E. Lawrence (#10) is the highest ranking non-fictional "Hero," while Clay Shaw (#15) is the highest ranking non-fictional "Villain."
The #15 entry is not (in the article) Clay Shaw, but rather some German dude from "Schindler's List" (and it would not surprise me if this German dude is non-fictional). Who is Clay Shaw, and what gives? --212.242.162.21 22:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Clay Shaw addition was vandalism, and has been corrected since 29 Nov. -- SigPig |SEND - OVER 06:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Highest ranking non-fictional? 

message: Before you start pitching your ideas for who deserves to be on this list, or before you start editing the list yourself, please keep in mind that this list is up for debate, because the top movie villains/heroes are just a matter of opinion anyway and why shouldn't your opinion be noted.  This is not the AFI's list, it is just a bunch of jackasses on Wikipedia's list. Them telling you that you can't edit the list is them publisising their own opinions.  I'm getting lots of laughs from reading everyones so-called rampant vandalism that's occurring on this page. Brash 09:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since this page seems to be "vandalized" so much, I'm going to start rewarding users who edit this page so it can be up to date as possible.   Brash 10:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Up for debate

message: Just a bit of silliness, but am I the only one who would enjoy contemplating head to head matchups based on the numbers on each list...  Like #9, George Bailey vs. the little possessed girl from the Exorcist.  (Which reminds me--if "Pazuzu's Petals" isn't yet a band name, it should be).  Or #33, Marge Gunderson from Fargo vs. Count Dracula...  v/r, Hammon27 19:51, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Head to head matchups 

message: Certain people have been playing around with the order of the lists, and so I have corrected the order and re-started the discussion of this page, please note this is not a fourm for discussing the order of the list. Take any challenges up with the people at AFI! :)
Gavin Scott 02:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lists Corrected

message: Trivia section removed per, Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections Gavin Scott 06:00, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Trivia

message: I edited the statement about "same character" under "actors" to say "identical characters", as the terminators were different copies of the same model.  Does anybody have a better way of stating that? ... this was the best I could come up with. Davidyorke (talk) 07:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terminator[1] !== Terminator[2] 

message: In the section mentioning the characters that came from movies Stanley Kubrick directed, the character  Spartacus is missing. Even though Kubrick was brought in as a replacement director for the film, he does receive credit on the Wikipedia page for the film, so I think he should receive credit on this page as well.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.136.60.188 (talk) 20:26, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Actors Kubrick Directed 

message: Someone has modified the number one villain to be Heath Ledger's joker - if I recall correctly, that was actually Buffalo Bill, of the Silence of the Lambs. This needs to be confirmed and fixed. SomebodyElse321 (talk) 03:20, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: IP users love to make that change lately. It's quite annoying. A 2003 list doesn't involve a 2008 film! -Phoenixrod (talk) 06:09, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: On the Hero side, James Bond (Dr. No, Sean Connery) is listed at numbers 3 and 46.  On the Villain side Norman Bates (Psycho, Anthony Perkins) is listed at numbers 2 and 45.  I could understand if it was the same character in a different movie or the same character by a different actor but they both list the same film and the same actor.  Is anyone registered with AFI so they could check that out?  Maybe AFI's list refers to something different about the 2 for clarification.
24.137.193.145 (talk) 22:00, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doubles in the List 

message: It says in article that Ed Gein inspired the character of Hannibal Lector but i'm not sure this is true, perhaps just an assumption. It appears that the Jame Gumb character from The Silence of the Labms was in fact inpried by Gain. From other information found on Wikipedia:
Thomas Harris has given few interviews, and has never explained where he got inspiration for Hannibal Lecter, but in a documentary for Hannibal Rising, Lecter's early murders were said by the filmmakers to be based on murders that Harris had covered when he was a crime scene reporter in the 1960s.
Harris, who was a crime scene reporter before he was an author, has never given specific details about what influences that he had for Lecter. But in a documentary of Hannibal Rising, Lecter's early murders were said by the filmakers to be based on murders that Harris had covered when he was a reporter [1]. Harris, who rarely gives interviews, has never definitively explained his influences for creating Lecter. However, real-life cannibalistic murderers such as Albert Fish and Andrei Chikatilo have been suggested to be possible influences. In 1992, Harris also paid a visit to the ongoing trials of Pietro Pacciani, who was suspected of being the serial killer who was nicknamed the "Monster of Florence". Parts of Pacciani's killing methods were used as reference for the novel Hannibal.
Harris based Jame Gumb on five real-life killers:[2][3]
•	Jerry Brudos, who murdered women and would dress up in their clothing and would use their skin to make items that he kept around his house. 
•	Ed Gein, who murdered two women and dug up several graves to make a "woman suit" for himself. 
•	Ted Bundy, who pretended to be injured and asked his victims for help, and then incapacitated and killed them. 
•	Gary M. Heidnik, who kidnapped six women and held them hostage as sex slaves. 
•	Edmund Kemper, who, like Gumb, killed his grandparents as a teenager "just to see what it felt like".
(Ed Gein) He is often called a serial killer despite his conviction for only two murders,[1] though he indeed provided an influence for several fictional serial killers: Norman Bates from Psycho, Jame Gumb from The Silence of the Lambs, and Leatherface from The Texas Chainsaw Massacre.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.206.215.194 (talk) 14:03, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hannibal Lector 

message: It would appear the vandals are at it again, listing Shooter McGavin as the top villain. While amusing this is, of course, inaccurate. 38.105.191.210 (talk) 20:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Vandalism 

message: The page states John Wayne had most nominations but did not make the list, yet he is listed at #36 for Rooster Cogburn in True Grit. What gives?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.231.6.69 (talk) 21:19, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  John Wayne 

message: I think this might be a good idea since vandals often change the choices around. 24.46.117.40 (talk) 15:22, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should we block the page? 

message: If you can't discuss the content of the page? You don't want anyone to say what a suck-ass list this is? The fact that Josie Wales isn't listed here as a hero and Captain "Red Legs" Terrill as a villian invalidates the entire list.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.23.21.81 (talk) 20:34, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll pretend you actually want an answer. A talk page, per the talk page guidline, is for discussing improvements to the article, not your opinion of the AFI list. -Phoenixrod (talk) 04:37, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Phoenixrod is correct.  Virtually everyone is going to have some sort of issue with this list, myself included.  That does not give us license, however, to alter the list, for, by altering the list, we would thereby be misrepresenting the views of AFI.  As Wikipedia editors, it is our responsibility to present the AFI list objectively; this would allow readers to make judgments about AFI’s list, as opposed to making judgments about our modified versions of AFI’s list.  allixpeeke (talk) 20:57, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just what is a "talk page" for 

message: Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid are heroes but Bonnie and Clyde are villains. There are several other examples as well. I'm rather confused by it, and I'm sure others are too. If anyone knows how AFI decided who were heroes and who were villains, I think it would be a good addition to the article. KickingEdgarAllenPoe (talk) 02:16, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed that it would be a good addition to the article.  allixpeeke (talk) 20:58, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Include AFI's criteria for 'Hero' or 'Villan' 

message: The villain listed on AFI's "100 Years…100 Heroes and Villains" website for Scarface is Tony Camonte, which would indicate that they mean Paul Muni from Scarface (1932 film).  However, when I saw AFI's show on TV, all the movie clips for that villain showed Al Pacino playing Tony Montana in Scarface (1983 film), including, if I remember correctly, the clip with the quote: "Say hello to my little friend!" 
Which is authoritative, the website, or the TV presentation?
Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 21:59, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which "Scarface" were they talking about? 

message: Wicked Witch of the West	Heath Ledger	Wizard of Oz????  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.249.49.128 (talk) 10:36, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I've fixed it back to Margaret Hamilton in The Wizard of Oz. -Phoenixrod (talk) 01:18, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heath Ledger ... of Oz 

message: I'm pretty sure a Taylor Lautner character wouldn't be at the top. I think this page should be locked. Coreythenerd (talk) 17:12, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Even more vandalism 

message: I see Glenn Close is listed as being listed twice, but she is only on the list once currently.  Was she previously listed as Cruella De Vil (#39)?  Either she needs restored to the list, or she needs removed from the list of women who are listed twice.  I don't have a URL for the AFI's official list. 128.227.57.58 (talk) 19:40, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glenn Close twice? 

message: I went through the article today, making a large variety of small alterations mainly to improve readability.  I incorporated the Oxford comma wherever it was missing.  I added some links (e.g., Terminator (character)), and I moved a few things around.  I separated one of the larger bullet pointed items into two separate bullet point items.  I added a “citation needed” thing to one of the factoids.  I also made some other little changes, such as changing the term female villains to villainesses.
I doubt one will find anything controversial about my edit, since I didn’t really remove any information (other than removing the redundant listing of Michael and Kirk Douglas’s rankings from the ==The actors== section) nor add any information (other than the Terminator&$8217;s model number, which I felt was useful in helping the reader understand in what sense the Terminator from The Terminator and the Terminator from Terminator 2: Judgment Day were either the same or different “characters”).
I reorganised what order the bullet pointed items appear in the ==The characters== section because I believe this new order flows more smoothly.  Again, I doubt one will find anything controversial in this.
Still, feel free to read over and review the edit.
Best,allixpeeke (talk) 21:29, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits 

message: Am I the only person who really, really dislikes the single table layout?  It makes more sense to me to have two separate tables, one of heroes and one of villains.  Having a hero and villain on the same row implies, at least in my mind, a relationship that doesn't exist. Jelloman (talk) 04:11, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you're not the only person.  I agree. Furrycat66 (talk) 06:13, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

text: It is confusing. As this was a "Heroes&Villains" list, one may be lead to believe that this is a list of epic clashes. So, when it appeared that that Darth Vader was the villain of Indiana Jones, I thought vandalism or a computer script gone awry. 84.211.138.201 (talk) 06:16, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

text: Absolutely, was very confused by this bizarre choice of layout. It should be two tables, a heading above each saying Heroes and Villains, and 50 rows each. 203.97.255.148 (talk) 11:17, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Layout 

message: No mention of Heath Ledger from the The Dark Knight as Top 100 Villians?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.85.9.113 (talk) 12:24, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: See 1.6 Vandalism on this page. This is a standing list published by the AFI in 2003. Shandorian (talk) 10:00, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  No mention of Heath Ledger from the The Dark Knight as Top 100 Villians? 

message: I have to confess that I'm wildly irritated by the notes. Often when they state "multiple films" they refer to the character rather than to the actor, who played that character only once (Errol Flynn - Robin Hood, Tyrone Power - Zorro) or twice (Bela Lugosi - Dracula). In some cases it does overlap, of course (Sean Connery - James Bond, Harrison Ford - Indiana Jones, Dave Prowse - Darth Vader, Sylvester Stallone - Rocky, Clint Eastwood - Harry Callahan). Yet there are often characters who appeared in multiple movies (Joker, Captain Bligh), and even characters that appeared in multiple movies played by the same actor (Anthony Perkins - Norman Bates, Al Pacino - Michael Corleone, Sidney Poitier - Virgil Tibbs, John Wayne - Rooster Cogburn, Spencer Tracy - Father Edward), but are only listed for one specific movie. Does that make any sense? Not to me. Did the AFI do the notes?
I'm also irritated that Obi-Wan Kenobi is the only character listed with both actors playing the part. Can't imagine that's correct - or it would make the list even more idiotic. Shandorian (talk) 09:55, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re. Notes 

message: Someone put a "golden" ticket on the Villains list with Grandpa Joe from the original Willy Wonka as numero uno. Espngeek (talk) 15:26, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The edits are coming from a sub called r/GrandpaJoeHate. There are two posts. Here's the first one and here's the second one. I am very sorry on behalf of this sub. 2600:1700:FEC0:6F10:CDB5:7C8D:1F8F:9F06 (talk) 13:35, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Troll alert

message: Lameusername11122 (talk) 14:31, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Please provide sources. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:44, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2021 

message: Why people keep deleting the trivia section/additional facts ??? What's wrong with it? TravisPm19 (talk) 06:36, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia Section