Talk:Felony murder rule

message: - Needs rewrite of some convoluted sentences (may do this later)
- Needs more information on the nature of the "rule" - what, exactly, is it?  A law, a body of law, what?  Needs context info like that
- Needs more information on where the rule applies - which jurisdictions?
- Needs more information on history and origins of the rule
- Needs more information on such things as third-degree murder.  no information about third-degree murder exists at all on wikipedia, as far as i can tell
-Needs a list of all the states that recognize the federal murder rule.
:Reactions to the unsigned comment above:
:* Copyediting is always appropriate, but hardly reason for a tag.
:* "Nature of the rule," I am not clear on what is being requested.  Reference to the article :on common law might be useful.
:* Which jurisdictions?  We are talking about 51 jurisdictions, few of which have rules identical to any of the others.  That's huge.
:* Origins and history is fair.
:* I don't see what Felony murder has to do with 3rd-degree murder.
:* A list of all states?  That would be cumbersome, and not of much use without more details about each, since there are subtleties.
:Robert A.West (Talk) 23:37, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's safe to say that all U.S. jurisdictions have felony murder as a species of murder.  However, there are enough variations in the precise contours of the rule that a list of which states have which variations would cease to be encyclopedic.  Anyone interested in those details could consult the appropriate legal treatise.  --Axios023 06:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not actually true, some states (at least Hawaii, and I think also Kentucky?) have eliminated the felony murder rule or refused to officially adopt it.  --Azureth 23 February 2009
Citation #11 doesn't lead to the relevant article  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.30.145 (talk) 16:22, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: "Attention"

message: The majority of the examples in the US section are just plain wrong. Also, the cite to fn 3 is seriously mistaken -- a brief review of 82 Cal. Rptr. 598 shows that the charges of felony murder of the manager were affirmed on appeal.
A specific example: argument that Mary will not face felony murder charges is almost as ridiculous as the contention that she won't face felony murder charges "because she surrendered to authorities." I can give much more incredible examples of a barely participating co-felon receiving felony murder charges. I'll submit a proposed rewrite in the near future. Joshua Auriemma 22:31, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  An earlier version of page claimed that the manager's death wouldn't count as felony murder because the connection with the robbery was too remote.  This was later changed to say yes it would, but without modifying the statement about Mary, leaving an obvious inconsistency as you have noted.  The example could possibly be fixed by having the manager die due to a cause which was more remote from the robbery.  — Alan✉ 09:53, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

text: It appears to me that the removal of the example was discussed.  The comments above cite numerous inaccuracies.  Those could be fixed, to be sure, but I have other concerns about the example.  If I remember correctly, the example was largely uncited and would thus appear to be original research.  If a specific example could be based on a reliable source, that would hopefully resolve many of the inaccuracies.   Verkhovensky (talk) 17:32, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: US Felony Murder Examples

message: After thinking about the request for attention, and looking at the material available, I decided that a significant expansion is in order.  I will work as quickly as I may, and will always leave the article in a usable state, but I may have to leave things a bit uglier than I would like.  Feel free to help flesh out sections, or hunt down citations I haven't found yet. Robert A.West (Talk) 02:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Expansion

message: Modified page to cross-reference separate entry I am writing regarding felony murder and the death penalty.  This separate page discusses the Court's decisions in Enmund v. Florida, , and Tison v. Arizona, . ---Axios023 05:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How can it be abused? Isn't it actually abusive per se. There should be a reference on the critic and it should be elaborated. --84.153.109.182 (talk) 15:29, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Death Penalty

message: Consider the following scenario:  John, Jane and Joe break into the home of Tom in the night with intent to rob him.  Tom wakes up and hears them and confronts them with a shotgun.  John responds by drawing a gun and pointing it at Tom.  Tom fires (in self-defence) and kills John.  The police arrive and arrest Jane and Joe.
The question is are Jane and Joe guilty of felony murder even though none of the perpetrators killed anyone?  I believe the answer is yes in jurisdictions where the proximate cause theory is used.  The odd, but not unjust, result is that Tom killed John, but is completely exculpated by self-defense, while none of the perpetrators killed anyone yet the surviving ones are guilty of felony murder.
   128.206.79.221 23:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe one of the cases in The First 48 was such as this: during a robbery attempt, the intended victim kills one of the robbers in self defense.  If I remember correctly, the surviving robbers were charged with felony murder.  Aside from special follow-up episodes, the show does not follow through prosecution, so there's no further information about whether the men were convicted. --Mr Wednesday (talk) 06:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is it felony murder when the felony victim does the killing? 

message: The By Country headline in this article can probably be removed.  It only includes the United States, and the description is similar to the Description section's paragraph that details US law.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by HappyJake (talk • contribs) 15:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps a "By jurisdiction" heading would be more descriptive?  That would still be inclusive of other countries if material on them is added later.  Verkhovensky (talk) 21:22, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No vandalismo, ma informazioni con fonti sui sistemi penali italiano, francese, spagnolo e tedesco. 95.75.78.144 (talk) 23:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  By Country 

message: This isn't the place to voice one's personal opinion of the felony murder rule. Still, in this article, there are sentences that express what seem to be personal judgements. There are no attributions or citations -- just unsourced opinions. It should be corrected or deleted. If no one edits, I'll remove them in a few... ask123 (talk) 08:52, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So someone who physically attacks someone without the intent to kill can be accused of manslaughter while someone who robs a bank and if a teller slips on the floor and hits his head and dies while fleeing in panic the perpetrator will be charged with first degree murder? Weird really.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.243.209.13 (talk) 01:31, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that's how violence escalates in a society.--24.85.68.231 (talk) 05:03, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personal opinions 

message: Is the Criminal Law template needed here?  The Murder template seems more appropriate and specific.  Also, removing the Criminal Law template will take care of the overlap between it and the jurisdictions template.  Verkhovensky (talk) 21:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I take it back.  The jurisdictions template was resized and everything looks good now!  Verkhovensky (talk) 06:20, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criminal law template 

message: The article stated: "...when an offender kills accidentally or without specific intent to kill in the course of an applicable felony, what might have been murder is actually relegated to manslaughter." This is incorrect. The rule actually states the opposite; under the rule, what might have been manslaughter becomes murder. Rhino79 (talk) 12:33, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That is correct-- if a defendant commits a single act that simultaneously fulfills the definition of two separate offenses, merger will occur. The lesser of the two offences will drop out. Where was this located? Otr500 (talk) 20:41, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a year-old comment, and Rhino97 already fixed it. TJRC (talk) 23:15, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

text: I see that --thanks--. Otr500 (talk) 01:41, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

text: You're correct that the general definition should be broadened. Arllaw (talk) 15:55, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correcting basic definition of felony murder rule 

message: The article fails to mention that the Felony murder rule is very controversial in the U.S. The article should address the controversy, especially as it's applied in the U.S. Outside the U.S. the rule has largely been abolished under the princinple that the individuals should be punished for their own actions in the commission of a crime not that of others. --50.152.139.176 (talk) 08:44, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Felony murder rule is extremely controversial in U.S. but the article fails to mention that 

message: 73.70.250.164 (talk) 05:51, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: What is the Missing State?

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Should the article include examples of the rule being applied? I'm on the fence about this, but leaning no.
An IP editor had just added Derek Chauvin as the first such example. I'm loathe to revert, although I don't think it's needed, in part because I'd previously reverted them for an unsourced addition, and I don't want to jerk them around now that they've used a source; and part because I don't feel that strongly about it.
Maybe a section (apart from jurisdictional sections) of "Notable cases of the felony rule being applied" or the like? The most prominent example of this is Bruno Hauptmann's conviction for the death of the Lindbergh baby death. (It's not dealt with in detail in the article, but because the prosecution had no evidence of premeditation, they could not seek first-degree murder, which carried the death penalty. They wanted to go the felony murder route, but, somewhat incredibly, kidnapping was only a misdemeanor under New Jersey law. They finally realized that he technically committed burglary, a felony, by breaking into the house and steeling the kid's pajama -- which just happened to have a kid in them -- and so succeeded in a murder conviction and death penalty under the felony murder doctrine. See. e.g., .) TJRC (talk) 00:19, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion of examples? 

message: Don't just revert without commentary. I do not judge -- I simply note that criticism of this sort exists, and ought to be documented here. Please explain why you feel otherwise, EvergreenFir. - Tenebris 66.11.165.101 (talk) 05:48, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Expansion of criticism section

message: Italia: 1) https://www.gazzettaufficiale.it/atto/serie_generale/caricaArticolo?art.versione=1&art.idGruppo=56&art.flagTipoArticolo=1&art.codiceRedazionale=030U1398&art.idArticolo=584&art.idSottoArticolo=1&art.idSottoArticolo1=10&art.dataPubblicazioneGazzetta=1930-10-26&art.progressivo=0
2) Schraffl, I. (2011). Dizionario giuridico inglese-italiano: integrato con il lessico politico. Italia: Giuffrè.
3) Pagliaro, A. (2007). Il reato. Italia: Giuffrè.
4) Environmental Crime in Europe. (2017). Regno Unito: Bloomsbury Publishing.
Francia:
1) https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000006417608
2) Pin, X. (2023). Droit pénal général 2024 15ed. Francia: Groupe Lefebvre Dalloz.
Germania:
1) De Vero, G. (2012). Corso di diritto penale. Italia: Giappichelli.
2) https://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo=2030883
Spagna:
1) Tratado de Derecho Penal. El CÁLCULO LEGAL. (2021). Messico: Editorial Arquinza S.A de C.V. 95.75.78.144 (talk) 07:50, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non vandalismo ma correzione/integrazione