Talk:Alain Rolland

message: Very wise to have removed the reference to his "neutrality" he has shown his true colours.
86.150.35.79 (talk) 20:00, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Please be more specific about the amendment which should be made. Please also provide references where necessary, per WP:BLP. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:04, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from 86.150.35.79, 15 October 2011 

message: Please change the sentence "Alain Rolland (born 22 August 1966) is a former Irish rugby union footballer and current international referee.", to include the phrase "of French descent". This is a reasonable qualification which can be verified by following the categories link at the bottom of his biographical article. Thank you.
nickgammon 22:48, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd class this as a "controversial edit", possibly intended to make some point or other regarding Rolland's possible neutrality. The articles on Jonathan Kaplan and Craig Joubert don't mention "of South African descent" (or, going by the name Joubert "of French descent"), Clive Norling doesn't say "of Welsh descent", Sarah Corrigan doesn't say "of Australian descent" (or, again going purely by the name Corrigan, "of Irish descent"), and so on. As the requester has noted Rolland's antecedents are covered in the category link - why does this need to be noted further? Tonywalton Talk 23:17, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The category shouldn't be there if the article doesn't contain relevant information and references to verify it. The Kaplan article has "Kaplan was born in Durban to Jewish parents", but not in the lead section. The other articles are stubs and although I haven't looked for sources for those it may not be verifiable or relevant (there is no :Category:Welsh people of Welsh descent). Peter E. James (talk) 23:48, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Relevancy is exactly my point. Had there been a request to edit the article to add this a week ago I wouldn't have seen much of a problem with it. There wasn't. However suddenly when Wales lose to France with an apparently controversial tackle there's a need to add that Rolland is "of French descent". Odd that no such comment was deemed to be required when Rolland refereed the 6-45 defeat of France (in Paris) by NZ in 2005 or the 39-12 defeat of France by NZ in 2007. As for Kaplan I can't quite see the relevance of his (or his parents') religion either. My point about Norling was exactly that quoting someone's "descent" is (or should be) irrelevant and WP:UNDUE, and in fact a bit silly. Tonywalton Talk 00:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

text: It seems clear that there is not (yet) consensus for this change. Please continue to discuss, and re-request the edit if consensus is reached. Anomie⚔ 01:18, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a note to say that before the red card incident occurred the article said Rolland, whose father is French, speaks fluent French, making him an 'ideal neutral' referee for matches involving teams from English speaking countries and France, although the sentence was tagged with . It was only removed recently. I think it could be mentioned (with a reference), but it can wait until after all the fuss has died down. However the 'ideal neutral' part is WP:OR and should not be re-added. AIRcorn (talk) 07:59, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

text: No objection to the text about his background or language skills, but I would like to see a source before including anything about this being an advantage for him refereeing French-speaking teams. I'm sure there will be a source which mentions this somewhere, but I am too busy/lazy to look right now. BiggerAristotle (talk) 16:11, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from nickgammon, 16 October 2011 

message: Some of the external links are out of date and need replacing. Please change the first reference to , and the external links to archived versions:  for the player profile (which can be used as reference for appearances) and  for the 2003 World Cup. The other external link can just be removed as it's vandalism (and probably not a valid URL). Also the name in the infobox shouldn't contain inverted commas and references are needed for the name and occupation -  has both, and other sources can be found.
Peter E. James (talk) 22:55, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I've replaced the deadlinks with the webarchive references you provided and removed the invalid URL. Thanks for that. Tonywalton Talk 23:41, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from Peter E. James, 16 October 2011 

message: remove the word dangerous the tackle in question was started by the frenchman's action & his body whieght was part of the mometum warbuton was merley supporting a gymnastic move & not taking the wieght of the french player. This was evidence given to the IRB hearing after the match & helped warburton reduce the penalty from 6 games to just 3 game ban
82.240.84.154 (talk) 22:24, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but no. There's plenty of reliable sources that declare it a 'dangerous tackle'  including the source currently used to verify the sentence . You have not provided any source to contradict that.  Chzz  ►  04:26, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from , 17 October 2011 

message: Should a section be added for his latest blunder - yellow carding the England player Sharples for "deliberate knock on"? It was another high-profile absurd decision which, if applied consistantly,would make it impossible for any player to attempt to intercept a pass.
:Not unless he is damned by the IRB. If you rack up every mistake, or assumed mistake a referee makes, then their entire article will consist of hundreds of referee mistakes and nothing that they do correctly. A referee makes at least one bad decision a match, whatever the sport, unless it was a glaring and career changing mistake like, awarding three yellow cards to a single player, it probably won't get mentioned. FruitMonkey (talk) 17:47, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  France vs England 2012 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Any bio article can have a family/personal/early-life section, which typically mentions the subject's parent's names and occupations, and their nationality if it differs from that of the subject. It has extra relevance in Rolland's case because his fluency in French means he often got picked for matches between a francophone team and a non-Irish anglophone team. It is also true that some people have commented that the closeness of his ties to France meant it was not appropriate for him to referee France matches. These points can reasonably be added if cited to Reliable Neutral Sources. IMO an opinion piece by a journalist who supports the team that his just lost one of his controversial decisions would not qualify unless they write "I'm sorry we lost but I must admit Rolland did not make a mistake".
As regards decisions in particular matches, the first place to document that is in the article about the match itself. Currently 2011 Rugby World Cup knockout stage#Wales vs France only says "The Welsh captain was sent off after committing a tip-tackle, releasing the opponent past the horizontal off the ground in the 18th minute" -- a dry match-report formulation. Rather than add any supplementary material to the ref's bio (or indeed the bio of the tackler or tacklee) it should be at the match article (and then if necessary linked to from the bios). jnestorius(talk) 22:00, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frenchness and controversies