Talk:Alive & Well AIDS Alternatives

message: The recent edits by 70.35.30.54 do seem to have shifted the viewpoint of this article a bit and as a result I'm not sure that it's NPOV anymore. -- KurtRaschke 23:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: User:Roguegeek escalated the dispute tag from "POV Check" to "TotallyDisputed".  The text of the "TotallyDisputed" tag instructs us to turn to the Talk page for an explanation.  Roguegeek, I sympathise with your tag; I hate the group this article is about too.  But unless you explain your complaint, nothing good can happen. ACW 20:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoa whoa whoa. I put it there because there are items in the article that need sources and show definite POV problems. NOT because I hate the people in the group. Not sure where you got that info from, but you're absolutely wrong in your assertion. Unfortunately, I didn't have the time I thought I might have had when I originally posted it and don't have the time now to explain. I'll do it later at another time and until then, I'll remove the "TotallyDisputed" tag. I'm also not going to put the "POV Check" back since no one has decided to explain why it's there (including User:KurtRaschke who originally put it there). If you have a dispute, place a tag and explain it here. Roguegeek 23:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK.  I apologize for any unwarranted attribution of opinions to Roguegeek, though I stand by my feeling that any POV Check or Dispute tags should be accompanied by some sort of note on the relevant talk page.  Of course, the best-laid plans gang aft agley, and I appreciate that one doesn't always have the time to do what one intends.  Anyway, all of this discussion is mooted by User:MastCell's rewrite, which at a first glance looks pretty good to me.  ACW 21:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether or not I believe in this foundations cause or not really doesn't matter here. The truth is I don't know enough about the subject to make to make any statements right now. My original concerns came from the POV and unreferenced statements. Ultimately, info needs to be NPOV and be well referenced. In an attempt to be a good Wikipedian, all I care about is making sure these things are in place in any article I have interest in. Roguegeek 02:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Mooted by MastCell's rewrite, no? ACW 21:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute 

message: I've tried to expand this article a little further. Comments? MastCell 19:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like it.  I'll like it even more when Roguegeek and Philiboy check in and say they like it.  But this looks much more encyclopedic and level-headed now.  I only worry that somebody inclined to the HIV-skeptic side might find it slanted in the other way, but I can't judge that; such people should step forward and express an opinion here on the talk page. ACW 21:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Very informative with no POV or reference problems. Touches on all of the major aspects of the organization. I like the way it turned out a lot! On a personal note, I'm going to study and follow your contributioins MastCell simply because you seem to be a great editor for the Wikipedia community, something I'm striving towards myself. Roguegeek 02:28, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent.  I agree completely.  And I repeat my apology to Roguegeek for having digressed into unwarranted (and irrelevant) speculations about eir personal opinions.  And I second Roguegeek's praise of MastCell's fine workmanship here. ACW 15:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No worries man. No worries. Roguegeek 18:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Mastcell and ACW, you've done a great job! Thanks for the corrections!Philiboy 09:44, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

text: To me the "in spite of extensive scientific evidence to the contrary" line is a huge red flag.  It's unnecessary and completely inflammatory because one of the chief arguments of Alive & Well is that there isn't in fact extensive evidence behind the "mainstream" theory of AIDS.  A better way of wording it would be to note that weight of opinion within the AIDS research community is solidly opposed to Alive & Well.  But the way it is worded now seems highly prejudicial because it implies the mainstream research community is right.  I don't necessarily buy in to everything Alive & Well is saying, but if you want a proven track record of failure and ridiculous, laughably wrong predictions, look no further than the mainstream AIDS research community.  These are the same people who 20 years ago claimed that the weight of scientific evidence suggested AIDS would crossover in to the heterosexual community and become a epidemic. Bogan444 (talk) 14:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That prediction was actually correct, particularly in areas like Sub-Saharan Africa where the epidemic is primarily heterosexually transmitted. A "proven track record of failure" is ridiculous. AIDS was a completely new and deadly syndrome in the early 1980's. Medical research identified its cause, developed reliable means of testing and prevention, and produced highly effective treatments which have transformed the disease, in many cases, from a death sentence to a chronic ailment. All of this was accomplished in the face of an entirely new and previously barely described form of pathogen, the retrovirus, and it all happened in about 15 years. I'm not sure what "success" would look like to you, but I suspect your criteria are highly unrealistic. MastCell Talk 21:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expanded 

message: Article needs some on neutrality it contains some implications of value and unqualified opinions. I have removed some. --neon white talk 23:08, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not an "implication of value" or "unqualified opinion" to say that HIV causes AIDS, just as it's not an opinion or value judgment to say that the Earth is round(ish), humans landed on the moon, or the Holocaust actually happened. I'm not sure you're grasping the difference between "bias" and "neutrality" as defined by WP:NPOV. It would actually be biased and non-neutral to pretend that AIDS denialism is anything but wholly discredited. Whether the wording can be improved is certainly debatable, but casting this, as you have, as a matter of "neutrality" is mistaken. MastCell Talk 23:44, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Maybe not but it certianly doesnt belong in this particular sectionit has nothing to do with the section in question and is badly sourced (one broken link and another is unclear what it is citing) and incredibly weaselly. It is clearly there as a discreditation which is not appropriate for an encyclopedia. The use of the phrase 'In spite of' is particularly telling here. It's essentialy starting the section with 'They are wrong but this is what they believe'. It is certainly a neutrality issue as it is implying wrongness. It needs to go in a seperate 'criticism' section rather than being used to discredit a particular viewpoint as it is now and needs to be attributed and qualified. We should be simply stating differing views in a neutral manner. This is how articles should be written according to policy. We need to be asking questions like. Who refutes this orgs beliefs? What evidence do they use to do so? Rather than just a 'science says they are wrong' as if 'science' was a magical reliable source. --neon white talk 07:46, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

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thread_title:  External links modified