Talk:Shōgun (novel)

message: Shouldn't most of the Shogun articles be moved to Shōgun? The Japanese word certainly should, according to the Manual of Style, and as far as I know the novel, miniseries and Infocom game consistently used a macron (at least in the title). --KJBracey 17:16, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Macron in title

message: The tv series I saw had 10 episodes.
That is also the information that IMDB has. --Coma28 04:52, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: 12 episodes?

message: The two-episode version is unknown to me.
You're supposed to be writing from a 3rd person's POV -- Project2501a 09:18, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Text cut from article

message: I am removing the direct links to the abandonware games mentioned. With the focus on removing copyvio in our text, I don't believe we should be linking directly to downloads of abandonware games, even with a disclaimer (in spite of my own personal feelings on the issue.)I've changed the text to simply confirm their existence, and to suggest that they may be available at a site like Home of the Underdogs. JubalHarshaw 05:38, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of direct links to abandonware downloads

message: The new infobox for books is great, but we need to indicate which edition is illustrated here. Obviously it is not the first edition, but a later paperback edition. Can someone add this? Thanks. 23skidoo 14:35, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More information need on the cover illustration

message: An editor marked this article as not citing its sources. From what I can see all that's here is a summary of the book -- so the BOOK is the source. Plus there are mentions of spin-off products that are factual by their existence. I invite the editor to explain what he/she feels is not sourced. As far as I'm concerned, the infobox contains all the sourcing. 23skidoo 03:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Check out the lack of sources in the "historical accuracy" section. 24.16.164.87 (talk) 16:19, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Why mark this as unsourced?

message: is there any place where the copyright has expired and one could download the pdf/txt version of this great novel?
````
: I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would want to read a 1000+ page novel on a computer screen. In any event, the book is only 30 years old. It's doubtful there is any place on earth where it isn't copyrighted (and it would be a copyright violation to download it if you happen to be in a place where the copyright is in place, anyway. Which basically means if you're in the Americas, Europe or Asia you're definitely out of luck for the next 50 years or so. That said, it's always possible a publisher holding the rights could issue an e-book (though again, why?) but I've yet to hear of this. 23skidoo 14:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: E-book available?

message: It's been decades since I read the book, but the miniseries is fairly fresh in my mind and I don't remember Mariko being torn at all, and actually I could swear she said something to Blackthorne suggesting that worshipping the Christian god, on top of a 1001 'Japanese' gods, didn't really present a problem for her.  Is this a revision of the miniseries?  Cryptonymius 17:03, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Generally, Mariko is conflicted between her duty to her feudal lord (Toranaga), her Christian beliefs, and her love for Blackthorne. In the end she manages to serve all three to a greater or lesser extent. I don't recall it being any different in either the miniseries or the novel (though the novel shows in greater details the behind-the-scenes political dealings she is involved in, of course.) JubalHarshaw 18:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

text: This article isn't about the miniseries - which differs quite a bit from the novel.  Among otehr differences, it's the political end not shown in the miniseries that brings out her conflict. 24.16.164.87 (talk) 16:20, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Currently the article says that Mariko is "torn between her new faith and her loyalty as a samurai's wife and to Toranaga." This seems a bit unclear to me, and also implies that Mariko is not samurai in her own right. I would like to change this to read "Mariko must balance her loyalty to her new faith with the loyalty she owes as a samurai to her husband Buntaro and to her liege lord Toranaga." Revanneosl (talk) 12:51, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Mariko is torn over Christian faith?

message: Look at this guy. Id say Clavell draws more from him than from William Adams. Pinto claimed to be shipwrecked on Japan, being the first European in Japan, introducing the gun, had contact to a contact and met a guy named Anjiro (hence the name if the village).--Tresckow 13:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Fernão Mendes Pinto]] 

message: Under 'historical inaccuracies' there is this phrase 
For example: early on in the book a character is said to practice Judo, despite Modern Judo not being invented until hundreds of years after the book is set.
Some forms (Jikishin-ryū Judo) of what is now called Jujutsu were referred to as judo historically, also at the time of writing the translation of whatever the character was doing as judo would have been sensible as this was far better known in the west (as an Olympic sport) than jujutsu. As such it is not so much an inaccuracy as poetic licence.
Should this be re phrased or removed?--Nate 12:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The reference is to Mura, village headman at Anjiro (and actually Toranaga's samurai spy), incapacitating a truculent Blackthorne through an unnamed unarmed combat technique. At no point is it called Judo or Karate or anything else. Blackthorne simply notices Mura's incredible proficiency in hand-to-hand and the skill is not elaborated on. If Clavell had called it by one of those names it would have been an anachronism, but he didn't. 131.96.215.74 (talk) 19:19, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Judo 

message: in the list, it has hiromatsu as two real life people, would it be better to just give hiromatsu one spot so to speak?--70.173.126.2 (talk) 05:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hiromatsu 

message: I'd like to remove the tag on the quotations section. The quotes are well-chosen, appropriate, and hardly "miscellaneous". They're evocative of the book as a whole, fit in perfectly with the rest of the article, and should be kept. (Though I do agree that the plot summary has grown overly long.)
Wellspring (talk) 14:09, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to boldly agree with your nearly year-old suggestion and do this. That tag is, in my opinion, intended for much more egregious violations than this rather well-done quotations section. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 15:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotations aren't "Miscellaneous" 

message: The plot summary needs a serious re-working. There are substantial elements of the plot that are either glossed over or ignored altogether (in particular during Blackthorne and crew's early days in Japan -- they weren't just tossed straight into a pit and tortured). I'm going to take a crack at reworking some of this, but other editor contributions would be welcome. I just finished the book myself but even with it fresh in mind I'm positive I don't remember all salient aspects of what was quite a plot labyrinth. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 15:56, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plot Summary 

message: I read Shogun years ago and I remember a reference to the "wheel".   Subsequently, I read that in 1600 the tiller was the only way to steer the ship.   Wheels were not used until much later.   What is the consensus on this?Longinus876 (talk) 13:01, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite correct. The ships wheel doesn't appear until early 1700s. 85.229.56.88 (talk) 16:31, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Approach to the Japanese Coastline. 

message: The "Reception" section says nothing about how critics responded to the book.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:6:5600:5AC:396A:DD57:84B0:A1F (talk) 16:40, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reception section says nothing about how critics responded to the book. 

message: Throughout the novel, Clavell refers to strategy of "western chess".  However, chess was never popular in Japan (shogi was/is popular), and so Toranaga would have never known chess concepts.  So, he couldn't have "sacrifice the queen". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.91.45.236 (talk) 17:43, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a work of fiction, so, no, it isn't a "flaw" and without some sort of reference to point to you are wasting space here. No Original Research and citations only, please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HammerFilmFan (talk • contribs) 20:20, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major flaw - Chess 

message: The Reception section reads, "Clavell said that Shōgun "is B.C. and A.D.". Is this an idiom meaning it changed everything like the birth of Jesus Christ? Google search feeds me only basic definitions of the acronyms.--2400:4050:95C3:2B00:8D1:D0EF:64A5:1FA1 (talk) 00:06, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Self-resolved: After more searches, I found a NYTimes article where Clavell said "For me, that was like the difference between B.C. and A.D. All of a sudden everybody knew my work." The meaning is correct, though the phrase may not be a widely used idiom. 2400:4050:95C3:2B00:4C90:C32E:3FB2:E8E9 (talk) 23:47, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question on English 

message: An IP editor has added a new subsection § In popular culture.  The content of that section is unsourced trivia that has had no notable impact on 'popular culture'.  For those reasons, I reverted that edit.  Within a minute, and in violation of WP:BRD, another IP (presumably the same editor) reverted me.  So I've started the discussion part of that and won't revert again.  If this new section of trivia is to remain in the article, at the very least, each tidbit of trivia  be sourced to relaiable sources.  As you might guess, I oppose the inclusion of the §In popular culture.
—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:11, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  In popular culture