Talk:Vidal Sassoon

message: Is Vidal Sassoon any relation to Siegfried Sassoon? SigPig 18:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You say he was, but I'd say he still is, since he's still alive.  140.147.236.195 (talk) 14:11, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

text: Please watch your language or you'll be blocked. Firstly, Iraq is a modern creation, so he cannot be said to be of Iraqi origin. Secondly, until you find a reliable source that links his father to Baghdad that cannot be added. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 17:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly, a reliable source is a must. But, that having been said, what is wrong with using the word "Iraqi." Iraq may be a modern creation, but, in current times, when we describe one's historic nationality, it is common to refer to the modern name of the region, not a former name. Europe is Europe, not Laurasia. Zimbabwe is Zimbabwe, not Rhodesia. If not Iraqi, then what would you call someone from that region? Remember, Turkmen, Arab and Kurd refer to ethnic groups, not geographic areas. Cheers, ask123 (talk) 21:51, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: The Sassoons

message: "one of the most influential hairdressers of the mid-1960s" - in what sense are hairdressers influential? Adam
They're influential in setting fashion trends, which reflect the times people are living in.  Roaming27 05:47, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Influential hairdressers 

message: I added "He has authored several books, including A Year of Beauty and Health co-written with his former wife, Beverly Sassoon." because I read the book way back in about 1977.  Roaming27 07:06, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Author details

message: Was Sassoon actually Israeli? I thought he was a British citizen born in England and therefore British. He traveled to Israel as a young man, but that doesn't make him Israeli. ask123 (talk) 07:10, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Nationality

message: I think it would make sense to include a picture of the hairstyle he's famous for reviving...should we borrow a free image from an article on one of the people who wore this cut? Nancy Kwan? Jean Muir? Juliette Gréco? Mireille Mathieu? I'm concerned about potential OR since I myself don't know what the specific cut he did looked like. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:09, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let's get a picture of the hairstyle? 

message: The category "Procter & Gamble brands" seems a bit odd to me to apply to a person. If there were an article on "Vidal Sassoon (brand)" or something similar, that would be more appropriate. HandsomeFella (talk) 07:37, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Ditto, i was going to remove it  but wasnt sure if his brand name redirects here or is seperate. If tis a ridirect i was afraid some poeple may reinsert i so dint want to twarLihaas (talk) 11:24, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Odd category 

message: Weve go the "if youre not happy, were not happy" (which suddenly sounded familiar to me ;)) but what about the "bouncy hair, is sassoon quality hair". Was popular some 15 odd years agoLihaas (talk) 11:37, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slogans 

message: This source does not establish to my satisfaction that he self-identified in this way. Per WP:BLP I have removed it. Any opinions? --John (talk) 01:24, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: JPost: "Born in London in 1928 to a Sephardi father from Turkey and an Ashkenazi mother from Kiev," although other souces identify both parents as Sephardim. Pedant's query: does WP:BLP still apply? He's passed away. 220.255.1.78 (talk) 06:54, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see self-identification there, I see confusion between the two sources. Yes, BLP still applies to the recently dead. --John (talk) 08:56, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: BLP does not apply to dead people, regardless of how long ago they died. The only dispute is whether his mother was Ukrainian or Spanish. Both parents were Jewish, hence Sassoon was Jewish. Jim Michael (talk) 13:14, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong, twice. --John (talk) 13:19, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure what the problem is. JPost states: "Sassoon, a self-described proud Jew." At least three sources indicate that one or both parents are Sephardic Jews. I think I'm with Jim on this. 220.255.1.55 (talk) 15:03, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

text: Also see the Jewish Chronicle: "Born in Britain to Sephardi Jewish parents from Greece and Spain." So it's either both parents Sephardi (three sources) or Sephardi father (one source). Moreover, it was mom who sent him to a Sephardic Jewish orphanage. Confusion seems to stem from the dual status of Jewishness as an ethnicity and a religion, but whether he was self-professedly religious or not may be immaterial, given that Jewish ethnic divisions lists Sephardim as an ethnicity, and WP:BLP doesn't seem to require self-identification for ethnicity. 220.255.1.45 (talk) 15:30, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not wrong on this. Despite many people claiming that BLP applies to the recently dead, no policy or guideline states that to be the case. Self-identification is not necessary in the case of dead people, but we have self-identification anyway. Most sources say both parents were Sephardi, which is an ethnicity. There is nothing contradicting this, except one source that says his mother was a Ukrainian / Ashkenazi. Jim Michael (talk) 16:00, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:BDP, WP:BLPCAT would seem to apply in this case. If we have a decent source where he describes himself as a Sephardi Jew, we could use that; it would certainly need to appear in the body of the article with a decent source before it could appear as a category. --John (talk) 20:03, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: BDP cautions against info that has implications for living relatives and that which is contentious; stating that Sassoon was Sephardi is neither. It does not state that self-identification is required. No part of BLP is relevant, because Sassoon and his parents are dead. Sephardim are an ethnic group; a person with Sephardi parents is Sephardi. Jim Michael (talk) 21:54, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is no such thing as Ethnically Jewish. Judaism is a religion. There are Jews very many ethnic groups, including China, Ethiopia, India, Iran, just to name a few. The Sephardim are not an ethnic group, they are descended from Sepharad, the Hebrew name for the Iberian peninsula. The Spanish people are, like almost every nation a mixture of ethnic groups that passed and or stayed over the centuries. The Jews of Spain and Portugal mainly arrived with the Muslim conquest from North Africa, but not all. In addition, Jews from North Africa today call themselves Sephardim, but so do many from Holland, since a lot of Jews expelled from Iberia were welcomed into what is now The Netherlands Historygypsy (talk) 00:29, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

text:  Sassoon writes in Sorry I Kept You Waiting, Madam, "when I was five, she reluctantly sent me to the Orphanage for Sephardic Jews in Maida Vale," and states in this interview that "I am Sephardic from my father’s side," and that he would "guess" his mother is Ashkenazi. So his Sephardi ethnicity is attested to on one side at a minimum. In any case, WP:BLPCAT applies to "religious beliefs or sexual orientation" of living people and doesn't mention or require self-identification for ethnicity. Sassoon is ethnic Sephardi according to multiple sources. That should suffice. 220.255.1.87 (talk) 22:08, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree. Per WP:BLPCAT, we need not only reliable sources but also evidence that the category is "relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources". I am pretty sure that the Jewish Journal wouldn't suffice. Any others? --John (talk) 22:36, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty sure you're wrong. The The_Jewish_Journal_of_Greater_Los_Angeles Jewish Journal clearly qualifies as a reliable published source. Sassoon's autobiography also states that he went to an orphanage for Sephardic Jews. At least four other sources state that he is of Sephardic Jewish descent (in addition to his self-identifying statements). The evidence, taken in totality, is overwhelming. Not sure why you're so resistant. You reject one source, I provided several more. You asked for one self-identifying statement, I provided two. You shift the goal posts, I anticipated it: as noted by one of the sources, he is a "self-described proud Jew," who was active in Jewish philanthropy and Jewish causes, so his Jewishness is plainly relevant to his public life and notability. All the sources agree that he is, at a minimum, "Sephardic from [his] father’s side." Not one suggests otherwise. 220.255.1.54 (talk) 23:44, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

text: It appears that I need to reiterate that BLP rules only apply to living people; Sassoon is dead. Jim Michael (talk) 23:32, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Contentious or questionable material that affects living persons or recently deceased persons should be removed promptly. If there's a consensus here that there are multiple, reliable sources that establish the relevance of Sasson's ethnicity to his notability (I still have my doubts) then we can mention it in the article and add the category. What's the hurry to add this, when it seems to be contentious and (so far) the only sources don't seem that good? --John (talk) 00:10, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing contentious about his ethnicity. All the sources agree that he is Sephardic from his father's side, including the man himself: "I am Sephardic from my father’s side." The sources are impeccable: national broadsheets, major high-circulation Jewish newspapers, his autobiography. 220.255.1.86 (talk) 00:33, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

text: We are not claiming that Sassoon was a follower of Judaism. He was ethnically Jewish because his parents were Jewish. This is backed by reliable sources. BLPCAT does not mention ethnicity, so even when he was alive we did not need him to have self-identified, nor for it to have been relevant to his notability. Jim Michael (talk) 00:43, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Sources that reliably state that his family came from either Ukraine or Spain, a mere several thousand miles away? Sorry, I am still not seeing it. "He was ethnically Jewish because his parents were Jewish" is not and cannot be how we work here. --John (talk) 08:10, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The standard for Wikipedia isn't you "not seeing it." It's verifiability -- and it is verifiable that he is ethnically Jewish. His autobiography states that he went to an "Orphanage for Sephardic Jews" and that "about a dozen of us Jewish kids marched every day from the orphanage in Maida Vale to school." He is a "self-described proud Jew" (Jerusalem Post), is in his own words "Sephardic from my father's side" (Jewish Journal), was born to Sephardic Jewish parents (Telegraph, Jewish Chronicle, Wall Street Journal), and is described biographically as a "working-class Jewish boy" by the New York Times. It really doesn't get any more reliably sourced than this. Your intransigent "not seeing this" is not how we work here. Saying that he was not ethnically Jewish even though his parents were Jewish is like saying someone is not ethnically Chinese even though his parents were Chinese (and even though his autobiography, interviews, and news publications describe him as such). There is no basis -- none -- for your removal of well-sourced biographical material about Sassoon. Your intransigence isn't a basis. That's not how we work here. 220.255.1.60 (talk) 13:17, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

text: Sorry John but you calearly and unanimously againt conensus here. The onus is then on you t o prove the validity of the arguement and convince not on ohters to suit "my satisfaction".Lihaas (talk) 09:52, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Sephardi Jews]] 

message: Without wishing to trivialize the loss of Vidal Sassoon to his family, but I could not understand the recent comment added to the article:
"His death was originally reported to be a result of natural causes,and later reported to have been a result of his leukemia."
Is Leukaemia not a natural cause?--SouthernFrog (talk) 11:48, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Leukemia is a natural cause. Jim Michael (talk) 13:14, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Somewhat but natural caue implies something that was unexpected like passing away during sleep. Cancer is expected to be fatal in most caes, its just a matter of time. (Again no intention of trivialising it)Lihaas (talk) 09:53, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Illness and death

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