Talk:Dark wizards in Harry Potter/Archive 1

message: just out of curosity how do you know natasha richardson and jeninfer saunders are up for the role?
(Bigred03 17:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well technically that's not true; there have been several Irish actors (Maggie Smith, Michael Gambon, Richard Harris) not to mention Devon Murray (but I guess he doesn't count since his character is Irish). Then of course there were all the actors and actresses from Durmstrang and Beauxbeatons, but they don't really count. There was even an American playing Susan Bones! Sure she didn't have any lines and was the director's daughter, but still! ;) Faithlessthewonderboy 03:54, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

text: We completely agree. As far as Narcissa, I could see Swinton, though I'm not crazy about that. I haven't really given it any thought and since I have a very limited knowledge of British actresses, I don't have any ideas about who should be cast. :P Faithlessthewonderboy 19:31, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Richardson I like a little more. That settles it then. Get on the phone to Warner Bros., let them know what we've decided. Faithlessthewonderboy 17:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Personally, I like Cate Blanchet. Therequiembellishere 19:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it is a fairly high-profile movie. Kingsley was allowed to be a Grenadian actor, and Hooch was an American-born actress. And if they trust her to play Queen Elizabeth I, I'm sure she can play any other English actress. Therequiembellishere 22:50, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

text: His accent is clearly not British. Therequiembellishere 23:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

text: While most of the actors are British (and rightfully so), there are exceptions, most notably Michael Gambon and Richard Harris. Also, Susan Bones was played by an American (Chris Columbus's daughter), though she didn't have any lines. And as far as Cate being too high-profile, surely Gambon, Harris, Maggie Smith, Robbie Coltrane, Alan Rickman, Helena Bonham Carter, Gary Oldman and Imelda Staunton are at least as well known as Blanchett? Faithlessthewonderboy 04:27, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

text: It's called "money". Stick another biggie, and get more money. Therequiembellishere 01:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Joely Richardson is a fantastic choice! Hope the casting directors listen to you! 194.73.217.244 15:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Up for the role

message: Why doesn't her hair colour show in the infobox if it's within the "edit this page" box? It's pretty insignificant, but it's bothering me ISAYsorry 02:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Has it been stated in a reliably-sourced review, or in the book? Btw, whoever added that fan-art image, please stop. It isn't usable for reasons WP:RS. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 02:26, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Im pretty sure it's stated that she's blonde/silver-haired (or the same color as Lucius and Draco).  ϲнʌɴɗɩєʀ 02:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes a quick re-read of the chapter with the World Cup in Quidditch. And it says (freely translated from swedish, dont have the english version handy) "His (Draco's) mother was tall and thin and had blode hair." So the fan-art image (if its the one here) would be suitable (btw i think fan-art that is true to the description in the books are better than the ppl from the films) ϲнʌɴɗɩєʀ 02:35, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: well as I stated under that, i re-read that section of the book, and it would be the best source.. its says she's got Blonde hair.  ϲнʌɴɗɩєʀ 04:00, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So does Hillary Clinton, Paris Hilton and Eva Braun. Should we use their pictures instead? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:08, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: No one is arguing as to whether or not a Malfoy has blonde hair. What I am objecting to is the usage of a subjective image NOT endorsed by Rowling, not seen in the books and not represented in the films. If it isn't one of these, it is not a reliably-cited source, and cannot be used. I am sorry if I was unclear about that before. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 14:20, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hair colour

message: With all apologies to the person who clearly worked hard on connecting Narcissa to the legend of Narcissus, we cannot include it, bc no one has cited how it was intended by Rowling to do so. therefore, it is a synthesized series of statements, and cannot be included. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 22:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name Origin

message: Draco casually lets slip to Ron Weasley in the forest the night of the Quidditch World Cup that both of his parents were out on the campsite, meaning Narcissa joined her husband to torture Muggles.  - Seems relevant.  Keep it in.
:He does not let anything slip, and not to Ron, he's speaking to Harry when he answers "Well if they (his parents) were, I wouldn't be likely to tell you would I, Potter" on the question "Where are your parents, out there wearing masks are they?". I would say, either he knows or guesses that his parents are out there, or at least his father. CHANDLERtalk 03:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Quidditch Night

message: I moved the article to Malfoy family and redirected there. **Ko2007** 20:51, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You neither gave a reason (let alone a valid alone) for this edit of yours, and neither did you bother to gain consensus for such a potentially-controversial move. The article is large enough for its own article and satisfies the requirements presented at WP:FICTION. Please refrain from moving articles in such a manner in the future. ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu  21:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I'd argue that WP:FICT is precisely what it doesn't satisfy, and that if it keeps sticking its neck out, it's going to get chopped off.  In particular, WP:FICT demands multiple, reliable, real world secondary sources for the notability of the subject, which is a tough call for Draco Malfoy to satisfy, let alone his mother.  I am of the opinion that this article is pretty much the maximum safe extent of the Harry Potter articles.  Lucius Malfoy is, fortunately, saved by Forbes and their fictional fortune500; Draco is a major character.  Narcissa is the weakest of the three and I wouldn't be surprised to see an AfD for her in the not-too-distant future, arguing WP:FICT and WP:OR.  We need either to put some serious effort into fortifying this article against WP:FICT violations, or retreat and consolidate somewhere - and Malfoy family is a good place to retreat to.  Interesting how easily WikiProjects turn into battlegrounds, isn't it??  Happy-melon 12:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While consesnus was called for, I agree with Ko2007. Narcissa has very little importance in the books, and I'm sure this article must violate WP:NOT#PLOT, as, unlike Harry's article for example, there is little here except a plot summary and I think it must detail just about every move she makes in the books. I say get rid. asyndeton 12:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the above users -- this article is nothing more than a recounting of the plot on what is an essentially minor character. She is important in the last two books, but not so much to get her own article. Malfoy family is fine with me. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 20:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

text: She's important, and deserves an article, but she has nothing to do with the deaths of any of those characters. faithless (speak) 00:07, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: She's important, yes.  But the important question is, is she notable?  Are there "multiple reliable secondary sources", to use that abominable phrase from WP:FICT?  Would she survive an AfD debate?  I fear the answers to those questions are no, no and no.  So I think this article should be merged.  The question is, where to?  I'd advocate into Lucius Malfoy to make "Lucius and Narcissa Malfoy" as we have James and Lily Potter and Tobias Snape and Eileen Prince.  As I said, Lucius has the wonderful advantage of a place on Forbes fortune500, which will be like arguing with a troll in any AfD debate!  Happy-melon 09:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion, yes, she is notable. Unlike the Potters and Princes, she actually appears in the books (you know what I mean). The problem (as I see it) is that if you go by the letter of the law, nearly every HP-related article would be deleted, or at least merged. The universe is so large and expansive (and new) that it is difficult to find sources on even noteworthy secondary characters. But I think deleting these articles, while maybe keeping the letter of the law, would be violating its spirit.  HP is obviously a notable series, and Narcissa is an important character in the series. But there are so many important topics, characters, places, etc. in HP that most of them have not (yet) been the focus of a reputable secondary source by themselves. Rather, the media tends to focus on the universe as a whole, and rarely touches on any characters individually, save for about four or five of them. Even if you merge Narcissa and Lucius, you're left with the same problem. Therefore, since Wikipedia is not paper, I'd say the best course of action is to keep the articles separate (but equal ;)). I hope this makes sense, it's 6.40 in the morning and I'm quite sleep deprived. I also hope someone caught the separate but equal joke, I'm afraid that a bunch of Brits are going to read this and I don't know if they know the phrase. But I digress... faithless (speak) 10:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Faithless, i think Melon has a good idea which shouldn't really be discounted, namely the merging of Lucius and Narcissa Malfoy. There is precedent for it with the Potters (yes, i know that Narcissa had her own thing going on in the series, which is precisely why I would like to save her from the inevitable AfD). I think an article about the two of them would be both better and more coordinated. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 16:35, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not that I think it's a bad idea, exactly. But are the Malfoys together more notable than they are separately? And comparing them with the Potters isn't quite fair, since James and Lily died before the series began and never "properly" appear. Obviously, I'd rather have the articles merged than deleted, and so it might be the best idea. My argument is just that merging them doesn't improve their notability. faithless (speak) 22:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I fully agree with Ko2007's last statement. Articles for Winky, Pigwidgeon, Frank Bryce and many many others are really useless for encyclopedic purposes. Narcissa is one of those useless articles (but of course is more important that Winky). I think that the article for Narcissa contains a lot of stuff related to Draco and Lucius rather than Narcissa herself. Her appearances are minor even in Half-Blood Prince. Her most important role is at the end of Deathly Hallows but again, she is not that important if compared with other characters. She is not notable for an encyclopedia. I think that she should be merged in the Malfoy family article with a re-write of her background and appearances in the book. Lord Opeth 18:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Redirect

message: Doesn't the Forbes List for the richest fictional people make Lucius Malfoy by the criterias used in Wikipedia noteable, because it's a secondary source? (And one, that has nothing directly to do with Harry Potter at all.) Would it therefore be okay, if we move him back to his own page (maybe together with Narcissa)? Neville Longbottom 18:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lucius Malfoy's notability can be reduced to a mention in a list. According to your criteria, then we should keep articles for Umbridge (for her mention in Stephen King's review of Book 5), Bellatrix (because someone said that Helena Boham Carter was shining but underused in the film), and then all characters with little mentions in secondary sources would have their own articles. Lord Opeth 18:59, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm generally for keeping as many articles as possible, because I don't see the need orr eason to make a single article too big. Therefore if I would make the criterias here, Bellatrix and Umbridge surely would have their own article. ;-) But that aside, the difference for me is, that Malfoy gets mentioned in something completely unrelated to Harry Potter, while Bellatrix and Umbridge got mentioned in reviews about the respective/book film. Therefore not even in a general critical work about the series, like Neville in Martha Wells'. Malfoy gets mentioned in a list from a Forbes magazine, which proved some notability for this character outside the HP-Universe. Neville Longbottom 19:46, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I get your point, but that Malfoy's mention is random, it is not like the example about Neville (the character) you mentioned, the Forbes list is not a work focusing on Malfoy, but only a list with lots of characters with only a mention there (and also Scrimgeour is mentioned inside Malfoy's mention, so that means Scrimgeour should have his own article too because of that mention?) I have some examples: what if someone makes a list about "Top Fictional Librarians" and Madam Pince is mentioned there in #47? Would she be worth an article only because of this? Is Madam Hooch notable because she was mentioned in the My Family TV series? I think that if we take away all these strong characters (like Malfoy, Bella, Wormtail, etc.) with all their references and outside sources, this article would be again a very weak and poor one. These three characters make it strong, like Umbridge, Lupin or Mad-Eye make the Hogwarts staff's strong as well. Lord Opeth 15:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Forbes List

message: Although a very, very minor character I do not believe he should be listed among the Dark Wizards as he actually attempted to do harm to Vlodemort.  Maybe he should be listed among minor characters rather than dark wizards.
:But he was once a Death Eater, believed in the supremacy of pure-bloods and was attracted to the Dark Arts. Karkaroff, The Malfoys and Wormtail reformed themselves in the very end but are listed in Dark wizards too because their actions. Lord Opeth 23:29, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's different; the Malfoys never truly reformed, they only looked after each other, and Wormtail only had a moment of hesitation. Regulus made a conscious decision of fight Voldemort, and we don't know how much time he was on the "good" side. Moreover: he sacrificed himself; he's closer to Snape than to Wormtail, I think. He should not be in the Dark wizards section.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canek (talk • contribs) 03:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regulas Black, a.k.a. R.A.B. 

message: the title says it allDragon queen4ever 15:14, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Snape is a major character and appears in each and every book, at least once being the main antagonist; he has his own page. Karkaroff is a minor character that appears only in one book (as a minor character), and is mentionedd again only once or twice. Magidin 19:42, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, Snape is not a dark wizard. Maybe he was at one time, but it's clear that he changed his ways. faithless (speak) 21:02, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

text: You do have a point, but do we really know whether Karkaroff truly reformed? I mean, sure he ratted out his fellow Death Eaters, but only to save himself from Azkaban. Maybe Minor Harry Potter characters would be a beter place for him, though. faithless (speak) 18:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree. But if anything, I think Karkaroff should be removed from this article and placed in the one I mentioned above, But Snape definitely doesn't belong here. faithless (speak) 18:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Or maybe just have a Supporting characters in Harry Potter, which could be divided into Light, Dark, and Grey wizards.... Magidin 19:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  karkaroff why not snape? 

message: I don't believe there is sufficient evidence from canon to support including Narcissa Malfoy among a list of Dark wizards, as she is never shown as using Dark magic, nor do I recall her as being explicity depicted as loyal to Voldemort (her association with him is mainly through of her husband, son, and sister). Narcissa toes Voldemort's line on wizarding ancestry, and she does affiliate with Death Eaters in the books, but then, so does Dolores Umbridge, and she isn't included on this list. I'd suggest that the information on Narcissa's character be moved to List of minor Slytherin characters or Minor Harry Potter characters. -Severa (!!!) 22:19, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree, but not particularly strongly. Narcissa is described as holding the same views as her husband, so I think it's appropriate to list her here. But if she's moved to Minor Harry Potter characters, fine by me. faithless (speak) 01:06, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say, given the discussions regarding Karkaroff and Regulus Black above, Narcissa doesn't conclusively fit the bill either. I agree it would be more appropriate to move her to Minor characters — Minor Slytherins seems limited to characters in Harry's generation. BTW, cool username. :-) -Severa (!!!) 22:30, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! :) faithless (speak) 05:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose, granted Jonny and Phil's cameo appearance in GoF, it isn't as unlikely an intersection of interests as I would've suspected. At the risk of getting any further off topic, though, I suppose we should return to Narcissa Malfoy. What do other editors think of the proposal to move her character biography to Minor Harry Potter characters? -Severa (!!!) 19:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I think that Narcissa is ok in here. Though not being a Death Eater, she shared her husband's views during most of the series (as stated by Faithless) until Draco becomes a Death Eater too. However, she took part in several D.E. meetings, she fought in the Battle of Hogwarts, and also attempted to give Harry to Voldemort when he was captured in his house. As for Karkaroff, I also think he is ok in here: though reformed, he was a Death Eater and was convicted to Azkaban, and his school was already famous because of the Dark Arts tendencies. I still have some doubts on Regulus, but he was a Death Eater too, and was initially attracted to Dark Arts and Voldemort as well. Lord Opeth 21:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Narcissa Malfoy

message: The section on Grindelwald mentions twice the romantic relationship with Dumbledore, however, they are inconsistent. The first one claims that Dumbledore had an unrequited interest, and the second says it was a full blown romance which implies that they were mutually in love. Please amend this. 24.5.237.44 05:15, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can not remember reading something about a romantic relationship between both of them. I think that Rowling never stated that Grindelwald is gay. Dumbledore could be only in love with him without saying anything. Lord Opeth 21:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Grindelwald

message: I notice he's not on here, although he is a dark wizard and one of the most famous. Surely there should be a mention with the main article inked? 220.78.194.204 10:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean, something like "This article is about Dark wizards from the Harry Potter series. These fictional characters are major and minor antagonists in the plot. See Lord Voldemort and Death Eater for further selections."? It's right there, the very first lines of the article, linked to the main article. Magidin 15:35, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lord Voldemort (Tom Marvolo Riddle)

message: I remember there was a sort of debate (in Bellatrix's former article) over whether or not we could say that Bella had been killed by Molly or just defeated, since the narrative of the book never said. Well, we can now say that she was killed, from this article, in which Jo confirms that Molly did kill Bellatrix. The interviwer says, "[Molly] does commit a murder," to which Jo replies, "Yes in book seven she kills Bellatrix--she is the only woman on the good side who kills." TakaraLioness (talk) 23:34, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bellatrix was confirmed to be killed