Talk:Nilo-Saharan languages

message: Could anybody name a linguistic reserch exept the one of Greenberg that Nilo-Saharan languages are genetically related - thus a phylum and not a group! As far as I know there are only two other scientific publications about this subject - both very critical that Nilo-Saharan is a phylum:
*Bender, M. L.: Nilo-Saharan overview. 1976
*Köhler, O.: Geschichte und Probleme der Gliederung der Sprachen Afrikas. Die Völker Afrikas und ihre traditionellen Kulturen. Edited by H. Baumannn
: See the bibliography. Also, see the many fruitful Proceedings of the Nth Nilo-Saharan Conference books. - Mustafaa 07:25, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Accepted?

message: First of all: I do not know anything about NS languages, and I hope the experts can clear this up. It is stated in the beginning of the article that there are about 11 million speakers of NS languages. Further on, it is stated that there are many languages within the group that have more than a million speakers each, and the total sum for all the languages with #speakers listed far exceeds 11 million. Either some number(s) is incorrect, or there is a very large prevalence of multilinguality among speakers of NS languages. If the former, corrections are in order. If the latter, the level of multilinguality should be noted, preferably with supporting citations/links.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.96.239.183 (talk) 07:17, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Total number of speakers

message: I've been busy creating maps for African language families. (See also African language families.png.) I'm planning to provide Niger-Congo, Afro-Asiatic, and Khoi-San with maps like the one I just added to Nilo-Saharan. It is an experiment, and the maps are subject to change. Any comments on the maps are welcome, here, or on my Talk page. - Strangeloop (talk) 12:32, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Maps

message: The article on Acholi language is currently nominated to be improved on Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. If you can contribute or want it to be improved, you can vote for this article there.--Fenice 16:42, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Improvement Drive

message: The main article has expressed doubt about the whole of Nilo-Saharan, with remarks like
"extremely diverse...rather controversial... denied its validity."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.41.51.240 (talk) 10:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We now learn that Nilo-Saharan is "quite diverse".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.177.145.36 (talk) 09:23, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: We now learn that Nilo-Saharan is "very diverse".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.48.65 (talk) 12:07, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you making a point? — kwami (talk) 12:53, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doubt 

message: How come Ateso is not included in the list of major languages?
It was spoken by over a million people in Uganda and Kenya in the early 1990's.
Marxolang (talk) 16:42, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Ateso

message: I wouldn't have thought that unlinking excessive linkings of the word "Nile" was really controversial - presumably one link to "Nile" is enough. Unfortunately, Taivo, who seems to have been annoyed by some of my other edits, undid all my edits as a result, including restoring those unnecessary multiple linkings of "Nile." I would simply ask Taivo to consider edits on a case by case basis. If you don't agree with Ruhlen or want to use him as a source, that's one thing, but don't undo routine or uncontroversial changes I make simply because of that. 203.118.184.219 (talk) 20:28, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nile 

message: The tripartite system, said to occur widely, seems not to occur in Luo.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 (talk) 14:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: And the Indo-European case and gender systems do not occur in English. We're comparing families, not languages. — kwami (talk) 14:51, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The Indo-European case and gender systems do occur partly in English. The article gives the impression that there is only one exception to the rule.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 (talk) 15:12, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There is only one exception to the rule. Luo is not an exception, as it's not one of the families claimed to make up NS. — kwami (talk) 15:15, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

text: Reworded to make it more obvious we're discussing evidence for the various families being related as NS. — kwami (talk) 15:27, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tripartite 

message: According to the color map in this article, the Berta are entirely or for practical purposes entirely in Ethiopia. But according to the United Nations (http://www.unsudanig.org/library/mapcatalogue/south/data/population/SS_0132_Ethnic_Groups_A4_20091224_300_1.pdf), the right bank of the White Nile extension of South Sudan territory is inhabited by Bertas, too. That's like 150 miles from Ethiopia. So it is likely (not certain) that the Bertas also occupy the intervening territory of Sudan, i.e., Blue Nile state. If numbers of Berta in Sudan are insignificant, that would still leave seven branches being represented in Sudan. Dale Chock (talk) 09:57, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In any case I've reworded to say 'in and around Sudan'. — kwami (talk) 10:27, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

text: Follow the links in the articles. Most are in Ethiopia, but up to and across the border into Blue Nile state. Ethn. has 85% Ethiopia, 15% Sudan. — kwami (talk) 10:32, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Just saw. Lavergne, Marc. 1989. Le Soudan contemporain. p. 88. Copying a map from a 1984 world encyclopedia, shows that the Berta occupy the interior of Blue Nile province. The thing is that even with the loss of South Sudan, Sudan has not lost any first order divisions of Nilo-Saharan. But another point: why mention that Sudan has many of those divisions? Kunama reports 18,000 Kunama speakers in Sudan. So we should report there are nine Nilo-Saharan divisions spoken in Sudan. Dale Chock (talk) 12:02, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I count ten, if you include Kadu. And Kuliak and Shabo are only a few miles from S Sudan. That leaves only Songhai out of the picture. — kwami (talk) 13:47, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Distribution of Nilo-Saharan subfamilies in Sudan and in South Sudan 

message: Til is edit warring over this, and finally tagged it with "by whom" despite the fact that I pointed out that it's referenced.  The relevant quote on p 141 is:  
:"Nilo-Saharan is disputed, and many are not convinced of the proposed genetic relationships. It is generally seen as Greenberg's wastebasket phylum, into which he placed all the otherwise unaffiliated languages of Africa."
Til seems to object to this because it's about African languages, as if that had anything to do with it, but the location is irrelevant.  Allegedly similar proposals elsewhere are called the same thing—Dene-Caucasian comes to mind.  Til is apparently unwilling to discuss this, as he deleted my comments from his talk page without responding to them.  So, are there any linguistic refs that the label is inaccurate or otherwise inappropriate?  — kwami (talk) 20:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the appropriate place to discuss it, but there should be nothing to discuss now, because I looked and found some sources that say the phylum has been referred to as "Greenberg's wastebasket" with quotes  around the entire phrase.  So I tweaked it slightly to make it a little clearer to non-linguist readers that it is Greenberg who is being disparaged more than the languages in the "wastebasket" (which might imply that any languages therein are "trash") Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 20:22, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That works.  (I wasn't accommodating illiteracy in our readers.)  I changed the wording slightly to better reflect our source.  — kwami (talk) 20:30, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, when you make a change that's rejected – especially when you're challenging referenced material – it's generally up to you to take it to talk for discussion before reverting.  See WP:BOLD.  — kwami (talk) 20:31, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

text: You should consider leaving your prejudices at the door. — Lfdder (talk) 20:37, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

text: I found exactly 8 book sources that use the term "wastebasket" in conjunction with "Nilo-Saharan". All of them do so in the phrase "Greenberg's wastebasket", and most of them put quotes around the name.  If some linguists want to use such terminology, I have no problem with the article explaining that, but this could be seen as insulting from the African POV. For the sake of accuracy, most sources neutrally put the full phrase "Greenberg's wastebasket" in quotes, and we should certainly do the same. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 20:47, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yawn. — Lfdder (talk) 21:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: NOTE: This "Yawn" comment does not belong on this page and is entirely unconstructive, having nothing whatsoever to do with improving the article, and only it demonstratates the editor's callousness toward other editors, but Lfdder keeps replacing it. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 21:41, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

text: NOTE: This "Yawn" comment does belong to here. It is informative for me as a reference to yet another Til’s pettifogging, I like it and hence, it is constructive. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 10:03, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: YOU like it, "and hence it is constructive"?  This has zilch to do with Nilo-Saharan languages, the intended purpose of this page being to improve that article.  You are resorting to all the things that argument-losers typically resort to when they cannot come up with any coherent response to my argument on the topic of improving the article - but yet they wish to keep on arguing anyway.  And admins are already discussing what is happening to this page, so anyone else want to jump in with their foot in their mouth? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 13:52, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Remember that WP:Wikipedia is not censored. You will never change this. If the sources say it is a “waste basket”, then the article will call it so, and all you can do is to censor himself to articles where no “insulting” reliable sources can be found. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 14:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You are a new editor to this topic, welcome.  The sources do indeed say it is known to linguists as "Greenberg's wastebasket", I have acknowledged it and tweaked it accordingly, and nobody apparently has any objections to the wording as it stands now, just vague, undefined grousing in general.  This has been a news flash update. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 14:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Wastebasket' phylum 

message: Another lexicostatistic analysis from a forthcoming paper by George Starostin; posted here for the time being, with his comments on the status of various branches.
Koman-Gumuz ("probable"), Kuliak, Saharan, Songhay and Shabo are rejected from inclusion (essentially amounting to a rejection of a Nilo-Saharan). A closing note suggest that he sees a hypothesis about the two Sudanic macro-groups being related to Niger-Congo as more promising. --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 01:20, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: And just how reliable are Starostin's classifications? I would assume like Ilia Peiros' classifications of Southeast Asian languages, which have many glaring mistakes. — Stevey7788 (talk) 15:17, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Admitted by him to be tentative due to being based on a single level of language, so likely to be adjusted in various directions later after more work. If you're concerned about his basic data itself though, reviewing that is beyond our job. --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 18:05, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tree by Starostin 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: MacySinrich The phonology is very confusing. What the heck is r2, a palatal liquid should be j, but it is classified as a semivowel. If the r is supposed to be a trill, what is r2, and why is it classified under palatal?
:The table of reconstructed phonemes is quoting Bender (2000), so you'll have to find a copy of that to understand his use of symbols. Landroving Linguist (talk) 19:49, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phonology 

message: How many Wikipedia in this languages?--Kaiyr (talk) 11:34, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia