Talk:Murder of the Hatuel family

message: June 16 2004, Ben-Gurion University in the Negev will award Tali Hatuel, murdered by Arab terrorists, a posthumous Masters of Arts degree in Social Work. Her husband, David Hatuel, will receive an MA in Jewish Philosophy at the ceremony.
Tali Hatuel, her unborn son and her four daughters - aged two to eleven - were shot dead at point-blank range by Arab terrorists from Gaza on May 2, 2004.
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Is this still disputed? If so, what? It's been protected for nearly two months. Ambivalenthysteria 10:37, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to unprotect the page, and we'll see how it goes. Ambivalenthysteria 12:58, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: To Be Added

message: The article is not a biography as the name suggested therefore I renamed the article to a more appropriate name which was used in the media to describe the event. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 18:10, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: proper article name

message: moved from User_talk:AgadaUrbanit#Murder_of_Tali_Hatuel_and_her_four_daughters and edited, discussing this edit
For interest... 
*given that the sources cited say
**Palestinian gunmen shot and killed a pregnant Jewish settler and four of her children in Gaza as Israel's ruling Likud Party rejected Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's plan to pull out of the area.
**Palestinian militants killed a pregnant Jewish settler and her four young daughters as Israel's Likud party voted on proposals to pull out of Gaza.
*...and given that both sources make it clear shortly thereafter that they lived in a settlement in Gaza
*...and given that the Wikipedia article said "Jewish Israeli settler" followed shortly by "near their home in Gush Katif bloc of Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip" 
...I think an intelligent wiki-rules based bot tasked with identifying a redundant word while maximizing consistency with sources and policy would have ranked "Israeli" as having the same or a higher degree of redundancy than "settler". On the other hand I would expect the majority of Israeli editors and supporters of Israel to remove the word settler from an article like this no matter what. 
Also, given that we describe where people lived, their ethnicity/nationality and what happened, I think a bot that was informed by its human coach that ignoring source based labels is okay if they are implicit would therefore conclude that the source based labels used to describe the Palestinians (e.g. "militants") must also be redundant because the label is implicit from the nature of the act. I would not expect the majority of Israeli editors and supporters of Israel to draw that conclusion. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:16, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hope you're well too, Sean. AFAIK "Settler" in I/P context is an Israeli who's home is inside Israeli-occupied territories. I think "settler" is a redundant definition, considering the context:  we say their home was in Gush Katif bloc of Israeli settlements next sentence.  Stay well. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 10:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you reconcile the inconsistency between what you think and what sources say ? Why is only the first instance of "settler" a redundant definition, considering the context, and not all instances of "settler", considering the context ? Sean.hoyland - talk 18:18, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Unfortunately Sean failed to address why do we need "a settler ... living in a settlement" stylistically. Noone argues, saying "settler" is reliable, however quoting RSes in a reply to a stylistic remark is besides the point. Policy wise, WP:LEAD requires a concise summary of the body: The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview.   Why do we need to repeat ourselves obsessively?  AgadaUrbanit (talk) 01:26, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The word is relevant because reliable sources make it relevant. And they likely think it is relevant that they were settlers because that is a rather important detail in their killing. It isnt obsessively repeating. nableezy - 19:37, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

text: I don't have anything useful to say about personal perceptions of style. If style and conciseness in the lead is your concern, you can remove the unnecessary Israeli prefix from Israeli settlement in line with the sources or remove details like the names/ages of the children. If the word settler is removed from that sentence, it should be put it back somewhere else in the lead because that label was selected by multiple sources for reasons that don't matter from a content decision making perspective. If anything, the label appears less frequently in the article than it appears in sources that discuss the subject. I would suggest adding the following to the lead from the article body "Hatuel and her children were the first settlers in Gaza to be killed since 2002 and the attack "provoked extreme tension in Gaza".[10][11]". Sean.hoyland - talk 15:34, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: "settler" in the lede

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121016030037/http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-%2BObstacle%2Bto%2BPeace/Memorial/2004/Tali%20Hatuel to http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-%2BObstacle%2Bto%2BPeace/Memorial/2004/Tali%20Hatuel
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120323184958/http://articles.cnn.com/2004-05-02/world/gaza.shooting_1_palestinian-medical-officials-israeli-troops-israeli-helicopter-gunship?_s=PM:WORLD to http://articles.cnn.com/2004-05-02/world/gaza.shooting_1_palestinian-medical-officials-israeli-troops-israeli-helicopter-gunship?_s=PM:WORLD
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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: :Murder of Hatuel family →  – I believe this is the grammatically correct term? Correct me if wrong. Dunutubble (talk) 16:23, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case, strong support to the move. Super Ψ Dro 16:05, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 17 February 2022