Talk:Skåneland

message: While arguing in favor of Skåne vs Scania on another page, I did a search on SAOB. Not having any way of linking to it, I have created the result a sub page to this talk page. It is in Swedish but should be useful for Swedish editors. See Talk:Skåneland/SAOB
:Since SAOB has sources that proves that the term was used already in the 1700s I changed the beginning of the origin section to say: "The Swedish term "Skåneland" has been used since atleast the 1700s, but was popularized by the Swedish historian and Scandinavist Martin Weibull in his political appeal Samlingar till Skånes historia in 1868(...)" I don't know if Weibull popularized the term, but we can be sure he didn't invent it, wich the article used to say. /Jiiimbooh 21:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  SAOB 

message: It seems to me that this article is written from a "Skåneland regionalist separatist" bias; given that such views are held only by a very small minority of people of Scanian origin (I am an expatriate member of the latter), this article can hardly be deemed neutral, and can perhaps even be misleading for people unacquainted with the subject matter. (added on 09:58, 17 April 2006 by User:Mostergr)
:As a general rule, we'd appreciate if you'd sign your work. It's easy—just add four ~ in a row and save—it automatically signs your comments. 
:The article may show a "Skåneland regionalist separatist" bias. But I found that the section which reads, “Official status — The term is not used in official contexts and is seldom used by Swedes, though being more popular within the region itself and with many regionalists and in the context of advocating Skåneland as an independent republic.” is rather clear to most of us non-Swedes. The history makes the context for the disagreement clear. 
:To achieve a "neutral" point of view, articles don't have to be (shouldn't be) neutered by removing all controversy; neutrality can be acheived by counterpoint. Since you are an expatriate of the area, I suggest it would be very constructive if you could develop a few counterpoint comments so that we might provide a point of view you judge represents both sides of the controversy accurately. If you're not comfortable putting new text in the main article, add it here and we'll help you refine it. 
:Cheers - Williamborg 03:28, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Note that I revised the article in an attempt to reach a more balanced content. But any suggestions for improvement are always welcome. Williamborg 04:21, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: Seems familiar this 8).Gnangarra
I ve been reading its also interesting one small point these two Govenor Generals
*Carl Gustaf Skytte (1716-1719) 
*Carl Gustaf Hård (1717-1719)
The date overlaps are disturbing has anybody check to confirm they are right. maybe a quick comment to clarify might be of some use.
Also you talk about pre 1658 when the area was part of Denmark, wouldn't a list of kings prior etc also be pertinant.
I'll leave the nomination open for a week if the dates can be fixed/explained quickly I'll promote. The list is something that can be considered and discussed later I wont hold GA promotion up because of this Gnangarra 13:11, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm doing some research into the governor generals. It appears there was one Governor General of the Scanian Lands (Skåneland), and one just for Scania. I'll investigate some more. / Fred-Chess 16:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok I have rewritten the section. / Fred-Chess 17:36, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done with the quick response I have promoted the Article, Well done to all have contributed to this article Gnangarra 04:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA- nomination 

message: Couldn't the following sentence be a little bit confusing: "As a result, in the Treaty of Roskilde (1658) Denmark ceded the provinces of Skåne, Blekinge and Halland (i.e., Skåneland)". 
It did actually also mean that Trøndelag, Bohuslän and Bornholm were ceded to Sweden. Might be particularly confusing since Bohuslän is mentioned earlier in the text. --Warfvinge 22:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Treaty of Roskilde 

message: I took the libery of removing the picture supposedly showing Lund Cathedral "ravaged by the war of 1676". This since a) the cathedral was not ravaged by the war, at least not to that extent b) the picture did not show the cathedral but an ex-monastry ("Allhelgonaklostret") located a bit north of the town centre, which was a ruin already long before the war since it had been shut down by the Danish Protestant Reformation in the early 16th centure and after that used as a local source of building material. /FredrikT 13:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks FredrikT. You are right. The perspective and lack of detail is deceptive, as it is the only church in the illustration, but after your message I have looked again at the battle line in other drawings from this period, and I definitely agree with you that this one must be meant to illustrate the Helne Church at the ex-monastry. The Swedish Church website states that all churches except St. Peters Cloister Church and Lunds Domkyrka had already been torn during the 16th century, so I assumed that the corner image of the city and church in this large illustration was meant to show Lund Cathedral. I must add that even if Lund Cathedral was not as badly damaged in 1676 as it was in the Swedish attack in 1644, and even though it made it through the Danish attack in 1678 when a large portion of the city was burnt to the ground, I think it may be hard to pinpoint exactly what and how much damage was done to it each time during the repeated lootings and attacks during this period, at least without neutral illustrations (with neutral, I mean illustrations not created to glorify one of the two warring sides). It doesn't help, of course, that the entire church archive was removed and transported to Stockholm in 1683, and destroyed there in the 1697 fire. Since the dating of this image is unsure as well, even though it has been determined to be an illustration of the battle in 1676 by the archivers, I agree with your move to delete it. I'll search the files for some other illustration of the architectural damage and human losses caused by this long tug of war over Scania. Thank you so much for pointing this out and for your kind message. Pia 23:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're welcome! And by the way - nice to find another ex-student of Lund University here! /FredrikT 15:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed picture 

message: The User:Pia L makes comparisions between Skåneland and places like Quebec. And she says that it is "background information about political underrepresentation as a driving element in regionalism in Europe". That is of course a very interesting topic. But: Could you answer me in what way Scania (or "Skåneland") or its inhabitants are "politically underrepresented" compared with other Swedes? The provinces are represented in the Swedish parliament in the same way as any other part of the country. And the Regional Council of Skåne (like the Regional Council of Västra Götaland) has more power than the County Councils of the other counties of Sweden. Not very much more perhaps, but at least not less power. If Skåneland is "underrepresented", which areas are then "overrepresented"? Stockholm perhaps. Yes that could be true, because it is the national capital. But I am sure Scania is not more "underrepresented" than any other county. It would be interesting with a debate here instead of en edit war. --Vedum 21:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mr Nilsson, the section which you are disputing (which, by the way, was not authored by me), is not making any claim whatsoever about how Scanian regionalism compares or does not compare with other movements, and neither does it make claims about how closely related or how different various separatists/regionalist movements are to Scanian regionalism---or about whether or not such feelings of underrepresentation are warranted. It is simply stating that regionalists movements are often driven by a sense of underrepresentation. Thank you for asking, Vedum, but what I think about Scanians being "underrepresented" has no bearing whatsoever on this article. It would behoove you to realize that the same goes for you. If your question is why I support the inclusion of the section, I'd be happy to tell you: the section adds perspective to the issue of regionalism by showing that it is not necessarily driven exclusively by "patriotism" or "nationalism". It points to the fact that many other regions, of various shapes and forms, demonstrate impulses towards autonomy that are not based solely on such sentiments. Now, back to you: it is bad enough that you are misrepresenting the content and authorship of the section here on the talk page, but a bigger problem is that you are also applying your own personal opinions on the issue when arguing to have it deleted---You want to remove the fact that many other regionalist movements, of various shapes and forms, who demonstrate various impulses towards autonomy, are driven by feelings of underrepresention as well as nationalism,  because you personally think that the regionalist sentiments in Scania have nothing in common with the sentiments of other regionalist movements around the world. And who are you? I don't think I see your name under "Notes and references". If you have a reputable source in mind, giving scholarly/researched information about how Scanian regionalists feel about the way the centralist state is handling the issue of regional representation, then please do make a contribution. Pia 01:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I am sorry, but I thought it was your section, because you always put it back. I don't know if there are any research made about "feelings of underrepresentation" in any part of Sweden. I have never heard of any. But I don't think that Scanians in general feel more underrepresented than people in Värmland or in Hälsingland or anywere else in the country. But I can of course not prove it, as little as you can prove the opposite. But if this was a general feeling, regionalist parties should have more support among the electorate. But if you have some reputable source in mind, giving scholarly/researched information about how Scanian people in general (not just the decided regionalists) feel about the way the "centralist state" is handling the issue of regional representation, then please do make a contribution. --Vedum 00:36, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Apology accepted, Vedum. And sure, thanks, I will certainly contribute whatever I feel is needed, although I would suggest a separate article about various forms of regionalism in Scania (or in Sweden in general) since it would require a lot more text and may crowd the current article. Actually, I am not the one, either, who have been been slanting this article in such a way that it has become unavoidable to deal with the issue of regionalism as opposed to separatism. Throughout the history of this article, certain groups have congregated here, inserting derogatory phrases such "local patriots" about Scanians of today and "bandits" about their ancestors, etc. I would prefer it if this article stayed with the known facts, such as the fact that the region has been accepted into UNPO, and then simply leave out all the rest of the opinionated speculations about how many Scanians feel what, which is what you are asking for by requiring that the regionalism of the people of Scania is measured in some way, according to how strongly they feel about regionalism. I will go through the main research efforts on this issue, which I think are the surveys done in relation to the continuation of Region Skåne's trial period (which had strong support in Scania). In the meantime, here are some sentiments from the capital, with two radically different views on regionalism, from two different "Matses" on the top of the batting pile, namely Mats Hellström, County Governor of Stockholm, and Mats Svegfors, chairman of the Ansvarskommittén (the "Responsibility" Committee). What they have in common, and which I thought I'd share with you, is that they both basically state that the current county based power structure in Sweden is chaotic, paralyzing and useless. The solution for Hellstrom, naturally, is to increase the power of the state governors over the regions/counties and the municipalities, and the solution for Svegfors, surprisingly (as it shows faint echoes of sentiments expressed by some Scanian regionalists in book form) is to scrap the old county governors' system and introduce more autonomous regions: "My State County Governors are still stuck in the 17th Century power structure which everybody else left behind. Too often, we in the State organization are competing for things to do and fighting over the territorial space instead of being productive for the good of the citizens. [...] Faced with this situation, several of my County Governor colleagues rally around the slogan: 'Hands off my county'". [But everything] we were supposed to coordinate is gone." (My translation. Article in Swedish.) Later and best wishes, Pia 05:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Perhaps the system with state appointed governors (landhövdingar) is a bit old-fashioned. In neighboring Denmark a new system with larger regions will be introduced on January 1st, replacing the amts. I don´t no so very much about it. I am not even sure if there will be more self-government in the regions compared with the present system. I am myself not an opponent of more power to regional councils. But I think that it must be the same degree of self-government in all parts of Sweden, not more in some parts and less in other parts. But this is perhaps another discussion.  --Vedum 00:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Political underrepresentation?"

message: Please supply a source that contradicts Moberg if the contention is that other scholars disagree with Moberg's assessment of fighting on Scanian soil. Deleting sourced material (especially from a well-known and reputable source) is frowned upon. Also: there were incidents in Scania due to wars between Denmark and Sweden even after 1710: During the Theater War (Sweden vs Russia and Denmark) in 1788-1790, Båstad was attacked and Råå was burnt to the ground. During the Napoleonic war, Sweden and Denmark took different sides and engaged in minor incidents in 1808-09 and 1813. Unless some reputable scholar states that no fighting took place on Scanian soil during the Napoleonic War, I would tend to trust the one used by the Wiki contributors here so far.  Pia 05:26, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The text talks about fighting in Scania "or other border provinces". If somebody is checking a list of years, please also include possible fighting in Norway and Holstein. It might be the explanation if a year seems to be missing regarding Scania. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 06:43, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concerning deletions by [[Special:Contributions/217.211.126.111|217.211.126.111]] 

message: As my nick tells, I am here to work with the administrative subdivisions of Sweden. This is certainly not an administrative subdivision. However, I would like to express some wievs on this topic: The denomination Skåneland is hardly ever used in everyday life. It is 1) a technical term used by historians (more often "Skånelandskapen" or "de skånska landskapen" are used),
2) a term used by people who want to out-distance these provinces from the rest of the country for some reason or another. --Muniswede 22:31, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too large an article 

message: The obvious fact is that the term "Skåneland" is used: 1) In historical contexts as a common name for the three Swedish provinces which belonged to Denmark up until the Treaty of Roskilde. It is, however, more common to use the plural denomination "Skånelandskapen" in Swedish and "Skånelandene" in Danish. 2) Sometimes Bornholm (which was included in the treaty, but went back to Denmark in 1660) also is included. Anholt is almost never included in this term. There is just a "local legend" about that on the island. I cannot understad why this local legend is considered so very important. It could be mentioned in the Anholt article of course. 3) Skåneland is also sometimes used synonymously with Skåne (Scania). 4) Some people who have an agenda to make Skåneland a fourth informal "land" besides Götaland, Svealand and Norrland or to make it an administrative area when and if the administrative subdivision of Sweden is revised are the most frequent users of this name. This last category seems to dominate here, Every effort to moderate them is quickly reverted. In most normal encyclopædias the term Skåneland is mentioned in one or two sentences. My question above got no answer. I hope for better luck this time. It is better to discuss instead of changing the article too often. --Muniswede (talk) 08:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The "obvious facts" mentioned in points 1), 2) and 3) above are all accounted for in the article. So is the popular usage, explained in accordance with Nationalencyklopedin and one of the premier popular history magazine in Sweden, etc, etc. The complaint is too much information? And the request is that the article is made less informative?! Please note that such an aim is at cross-purpose with the aim of this encyclopedia (as is attempts to make articles shorter because of a personal dislike for a subject or antipathy towards another country). Edits in this vein are likely to be reverted in the future as well, I'm afraid. I notice that the above user have searched out the information about Anholt in other articles as well, only to delete it, along with the reference . The same goes for mentions of Danish or Denmark in the lead of articles about this historically Danish region , , , , , . Why? It makes articles too long? This article is not unusually long or unusually detailed - and if that was a problem, splitting would be an option to consider. The question the above raises in my mind is instead why referenced historical facts should be, or for some reason or other needs to be, concealed? The fate of Anholt, as a former part of the region, is interesting and it is a fact often mentioned in history books. The legend about Anholt (only mentioned in a footnote in this article) is perhaps more famous than even the actual people involved (as shown by it being the first thing the island's tourist board mentions about the history of the island). What is the argument for the removal of the footnote again? Too much information? As for point 4) above: I can't find any info in the article where it is implied that the region is a historical "land of Sweden" and I have found no evidence of an agenda expressed in the article that would aim to make the region an informal "land of Sweden". Rather, the article seems to stress the historical and cross-border aspects; it states right away in the lead that the region was a historical land of Denmark. Sorry, but the claims don't make any sense: if the request instead is that the article ought to include some sort of conspiracy theory, I would urge Muniswede to make sure to consult reliable sources. (Please also source your most recent additions about crown land and the Danish bishop. It is important to keep all facts WP:verifiable.) Also: I suspect there is a language problem: there is no popularity contest implied. "Modern popular usage" means only "usage by or usage aimed at nonspecialists: designed to appeal to or be comprehensible to the nonspecialist". See also "popular science". 71.107.17.50 (talk) 11:53, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This seems to be one of those controversial topics there almost every sentence needs a reference. Thats O.K. with me. I just must visit a library and serch for reliable sources. And that may take some time, as I am not employed or paid for doing this. One problem, however, is that there is much easier to find sources for the occasional times when this term is actually used in "popular usage" (the term is actually mentioned in these sources) than to find sources for the "non-using" of the term. After all you cannot mention all books about the provinces where the term is not used. I did not mean "popularity contest". But the term is very seldom (I would say almost never) used in "everyday speech", in daily newspapers, wheather forecasts, tourism promoting, company names etc. There are only four names found in the "Yellow pages" (nation-wide) involving that term. Furthermore, two of them are societies promoting the agenda. I therefore think this article should stress on the fact that the name Skåneland (or Skånelandskapen) is used in historical contexts. And, by the way, Skåneland was not ceded by Denmark as a whole in 1658. There is one instrument of surrender for each one of the provinces. Not even at that time the area was treated en bloc. --Muniswede (talk) 10:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Denmark did the surrendering of the four provinces (the provinces did not surrender individually, if that's what you mean), after which they were most certainly treated en bloc as one dominion by the victor. They became one dominion ruled by one Governor General, namely the Swedish Governors-General#Scania, a man named Gustaf Otto Stenbock. Secondly, about references: the number of references does not directly correlate with the amount of controversy over facts in articles: if that was the case, the article Kingdom of Sweden would be twice as controversial as Skåneland with its 70-something footnotes. Providing references is simply good policy as it encourages transparency and helps students find sources in a subject. Unfortunately, the yellow pages would probably not be considered a reliable source though, unless the Swedish version has some kind of encyclopedia attached to it. I'd suggest sticking with peer-reviewed articles, encyclopedias, dictionaries, published books, etc. Commercial enterprises' use of terms or names may not be considered especially interesting additions to articles. Concerning using sources to "prove the negative": if by that statement you mean that you would like to see a section added to the article that talks about how unpopular the terms "Skåneland-Skånelandskapen-Skånelandene" are in Sweden by showing how many times they are excluded from Swedish books dealing with the subject, I'd suggest this modus operandi: try a Google book search first to see if your theory holds water, then proceed by locating a source making the claim. It's probably not impossible, just not that interesting an addition in my opinion, because it basically boils down to the popularity-competition aspect mentioned above. It doesn't change the fact that terms still exist in encyclopedias, dictionaries, history books and popular science magazines and therefore warrant mention. But if you feel that this aspect is crucial, I'm sure people would be willing to help you out though, although nobody is paid. No problem. :) 71.107.17.50 (talk) 00:29, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

text: The telephone book should of course not be used as a source, but it givs an impression of how much the name is used in everyday life. I do certainly not mean that the article should be deleted (as somebody proposed when it was newly written), but that even more stress should be put on the fact that it is a historical term. I am not going to try to prove some "unpopularity". As you said yourself it is not a "popularity contest". I do not think the term is either "popular" nor "impopular". Most people simply don't need to describe the provinces en bloc in their everyday life. Yes there were governors general for the whole area for some time in the beginning of the Swedish era. But Halland had its own governor (landshövding) already in 1658 and Blekinge got a landshövding in 1683. The area has been incorporated in the "normal" administrative pattern for some 300 years now.--Muniswede (talk) 07:37, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Several people, including myself, have tried to "moderate" this article. But it is not so easy. Some of us have almost given up. Good luck!--Vedum (talk) 09:46, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Modern popular usage??

message: In December last year I made a change to this article, calling the denomination "Skåneland" "historiographic", a word I had just recently found. This change was soon deldeted. Now I have found out that this term is very suitable. E.g. the Byzantine Empire and the Kalmar Union are called historiographic terms on the WP. I am not an expert on historical terminology, but I think this term should be very proper for an area like this. This is really not a geographical, political or administrative entity. The name is not commonly used in everyday life and it is not on maps, roadsigns, company names or the like. It is almost only used describing the provinces in historical contexts. Therefore I consider it a historiographic term. Please, correct me if I am wrong. Are there anybody wanting to support me in this case? --Muniswede (talk) 21:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that there are four names in the title of this article (plus two translations): Skåneland, Skånelandskapen (Scanian Provinces), Terra Scaniae ("Scania Land") and Scania. One was used during medieval times, one was used in 18th-century poems etc, including in texts by Carl von Linne, one is used, as you have yourself pointed out repeatedly, by Scanians who wish to stress their belonging to a certain cultural region, one is favored by some historians, another by other historians. If it is the term Skåneland you wish to target, how do you suggest dealing with the issue of historiography without having to separate the names into different articles?  Notice that the article about the Byzantine Empire deals elegantly with the historiographical issue (i.e. what names have been used for the Byzantine Empire throughout that entity's history) in detail, already in the lead: "During much of its history it was known to many of its Western contemporaries as the 'Empire of the Greeks' ...To its inhabitants, the Empire was simply the 'Roman Empire (Βασιλεία Ῥωμαίων)' or 'Romania (Ῥωμανία).' In the Islamic world it was known primarily as 'روم‎'.'" If you'd like to author a similar section about historiography in order to introduce the word "historiographical" for some uses of for example the term Skåneland, I'll still support you though. (However, I'd suggest not basing the discussion on any historiography terms used in the Kalmar Union article right now, as that article is undergoing work after having been delisted..and since it seems to rely extensively on a source from 1904 called "The Historians' History of the World". The "historians' history" and the historical methods, including terms (and views on nationalistic perspectives), have changed a little since 1904, I'm afraid. 71.106.242.31 (talk) 00:49, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "Historiographic term" - why not?

message: Hi, I have two problems with statements in the article regarding the relationship between Scanian regionalism and Swedish state nationalism:
#I feel it's misleading to call it Swedish state nationalism since it is really just "Swedish nationalism" and not at all supported by the State. If it is to be characterised as anything I would prefer Swedish cultural nationalism. It should also be noted that in most cases these are more anti-immigrant than "nationalist". 
#In the beginning of the article there is a sentence stating that "In Scania, Swedish nationalism, which often alludes to slogans such as "Keep Sweden Swedish", is resisted by many regionalists as being intolerant of Scania's cultural diversity and Danish history, and as being non-inclusive of cultural expressions originating in areas outside the capital region". I feel this sentence risks being a bit misunderstood. "Keep Sweden Swedish" (which was a movement during the late 80's to early 90's) has nothing to do with Scanian regionalism but with anti-immigration views (which in fact had strong support in the Scania region).
I suggest (1) we change "Swedish state nationalism" to "anti-immigration" and take out the sentence referred to in point 2 above. Any comments?Osli73 (talk) 00:53, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You are of course very right in your observations. Furthermore there is no "Scanian regionalism" at all when it comes to the territory here referred to as "Skåneland". The fact is that "Skåneland" is a purely historical term, not used in everyday life regarding today's reality. The political landscapes of the three Swedish provinces concerned are really rather different. Only in Region Skåne, the county council of Skåne län, the anti-immigration party Sverigedemokraterna (Sweden Democrats) have got a representation (5,89 % of the votes). They are very small and without representation in Blekinge and Halland. "Scanian regionalists" have no representation whatsoever in any regional or municipal council neither in Scania nor in the other provinces since the xenophobic Skånepartiet was thrown out from the municipal council of Malmö in the last elections. And, by the way, what is really ment with ""State nationalism"? If there should be anything written about "Scanian regionalism" it should be moved to the article "Scania", because it has nothing to do with the other provinces. --Vedum (talk) 21:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

text: I can only agree and I have now removed the section. My intention was to move it to the article "Scania", but there is already a lot about "regionalism" there. --Muniswede (talk) 08:38, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scanian regionalism - incorrect/misleading text/wording 

message: Per this discussion, I think it is best to remove the "nobots" tag completely and see if user Thijs' modifications work. We can re-add it if the problem re-occurs. Skäpperöd (talk) 23:25, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  interwiki links 

message: I see the  tag is set on this article (and has been since 2014). Is there still an ongoing dispute? If there is, I'm not trying to interfere, just wondering. Q·L·1968 ☿ 00:12, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: As a good article I feel this needs resolving or the article delisted . AIRcorn (talk) 01:37, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality dispute?