Talk:Doctors' plot

message: I have nothing against the Poles but why is this link relevant here: Polish minority in Soviet Union? --Humus sapiens|Talk 23:27, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Link to Polish minority shows that Stalin intended to do with Jews in 1953 the same what he actually has done with Poles 20 years before. What can make you possibly to add a new article History of anti-Polonism. As far as I am concerned Poles earned bitter enemies the moment they become a nation. First chronic writer Thietmar clearly suffered from anti-Polonism. Any association with your History of Anti-Semitism? Cautious 22:14, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Go ahead, create it if you feel it deserves to be in an encyclopedia. I am against ANY persecutions based on ethnic/religious grounds. Regarding the Doctors' plot, there was nothing specific about Poles there, correct? --Humus sapiens|Talk 22:39, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

text: Fascinating conspiracy theory. If you so insist, name some Poles linked to the Doc's plot. --Humus sapiens|Talk 00:47, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

text: Sorry, maybe I'll have more time to read it later. So far I don't see any relation to the subject. Do you have a solid answer to my question above, other than Stalin didn't like the Jews, but he also didn't like the Poles? --Humus sapiens|Talk 09:04, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the pdf, you will find a plenty of relations. Do you think, that Doctor's plot was supposed to limit itself to SU? Do you think, when Stalin planned the Doctor's plot? My guess, 1945. To answer your question: Stalin worked with Polish communists 26-38, 12 years. Stalin worked with Jewish communists 26-53, 27 years. Do you still claim that Stalin didn't like them? He liked them when it suite his cause. Cautious 09:21, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Pasted discussion from my talk page

message: "Every Jew is a nationalist and potential agent of the American intelligence"
- Stalin did not actually say this. This is a mistranslation, and should read "Every Zionist is a nationalist, etc." --Charm Quark 21:28, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You are wrong: here's a proof . I do remember I used some Russian language source, will try to recall which one. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 22:20, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  You both are wrong. Stalin used the expression "evrei-natsionalisty" - "Jewish nationalists". The main difference is that he did not claim that every Jew is a nationalist.--85.140.130.68 20:24, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mistranslation

message: :"and the State of Israel allying with the West"
This has no relevance to the situation of 1948 -- in the late 1940's, the Soviet Union strongly supported the coming into existence of Israel (in order to diminish British influence in the mideast, rather than out of any sympathy with Jewish aspirations, it's true), and the Soviet-Arab aligment didn't really exist until a few years into the 1950's.  Similarly, Israel couldn't be said to have "allied with the West" in any very meaningful sense until the mid-50's or so (in the late 1940's, Israel actually got most of its heavy arms from Czechoslovakia!).  AnonMoos 13:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's make this chronological: the USSR supported the establishment of Israel and the Soviet WW2 weapons were supplied via Czechoslovakia (to dodge the embargo). By the end of 1948, the USSR switched sides and aligned with the Arabs against Israel. I wasn't there but I remember reading Paul Johnson and others (including post-Soviet historians) about this. ←Humus sapiens ну? 01:21, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Switch sides" would probably be too dramatic if you're confining yourself to 1948.  It seems to me that Stalin was pretty much flailing around trying to do whatever would most diminish British influence, but he wasn't yet entirely sure what that was (and perhaps hadn't yet fully grasped that the US was now the main opponent).  I don't think there was a real steady Soviet-Arab alliance until the period of the Bandung Conference, the wrangling over the sponsorship of the Aswan dam, the run-up to the Suez crisis, the ruckus over the Baghdad Pact, etc. AnonMoos 12:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed this clause from first paragraph

message: One or two doctors were not released after Stalin's death as they seem to have died under torture.
:See the article on Yakov Etinger.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.103.141 (talk) 08:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good source ? Biophys (talk) 06:41, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible deaths 

message: Timashuk's name is sometimes spelled Timashchuk.
A "Kruschev" appears in the text. Is this a mistake?
:Yes, surely, I fixed it and thanks for pointing that out. Herostratus (talk) 02:08, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling 

message: This campaing in the article is called "anti-semitic", however, it is not true, it is "anti-zionist", which is different. I'm changing the references.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.174.91.153 (talk) 18:21, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semitism and Zionism 

message: "the major landmarks of Soviet state anti-semitism were the massive purged of the 1930s" and "toward the end fo the war the party's anti-Semitic policy became more intense"
 
It is not right to think that Jews were singled out in Stalin's purges; Lots of other nationalities can make the same claim. Many of the old Bolsheviks were Jews, so you think they were purged because they were Jewish and not because they were political rivals?
This is the author's view and it should be attributed to him.
 
"Stalin had said to him: `Purge the ministry of Jews’ " "Absurdly denying any anti-semitism on the part of Stalin, Molotov held that this purge was designed to bring more ethnic Russians into top positions"
 
All of your sources for this also state that it was a move in foreign policy for better relations with Nazi Germany. The title of the source you quote from even proves this... 
Look at the article on Litvinov.
So the reason should stay since it shows that it was likely a political decision and not just primitive anti-Semetism. 
:-YMB29 (talk) 15:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jews and the purges 

message: The article does not flow well at all.
Can we do something to make it a little more readable? No.
Sagi Nahor (talk) 13:30, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flow 

message: Many of the articles linked to are far less emphatic (polemic?).
68.49.23.150 (talk) 02:30, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: At http://www.sovsekretno.ru/articles/id/3151/ there is an article by Vladimir Voronov that states that on 3/Feb/1953 the writer Ilya Erenburg has sent a letter to Stalin in which he refers to the project of "The letter to Pravda", which he should sign with other prominent Jews. In that letter he condemns the explosion, which did not even occur by then!!!
That and other clues may directly lead to understanding that the explosion in the Soviet embassy was part of the bigger plot by the Soviet Union itself.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sirovsky (talk • contribs) 21:36, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The explosion in Tel-Aviv as a provocation by the Soviet Union itself 

message: User:Zhanghao1987 is wanting to include the following sentences at the end of the "Khrushchev's statements" section:
:
and there are three refs for this. Grammar aside (that's easily fixable), I think this is kind of getting off track from the proper scope of this article. It may belong somewhere but not here in this article. Not wishing to edit war over this, I invite the editor to here state his case for including these sentences in the article. Herostratus (talk) 13:28, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brezhnev 

message: First paragraph:
The doctors' plot was to be the catalyst of Stalin's campaigns against Soviet Jews
Shouldn't this be 'climax'? Stalin hardly needed a catalyst for any of his actions.
194.39.218.10 (talk) 11:10, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catalyst? 

message: I hope you will not think of me as of an anti-Semite if I say that I personally don't like how Jews try to gain credits on the tragedies in their history, how they claim that their sufferings were more important that those of other nations (who cares of Soviet, Poles, Chinese etc citizens (most of whom were civilians) who died during the Second World War, except themselves?) and how they try to find anti-Semitism in any tragic event where a single Jewish surname was mentioned.
So, about this article. It's basically a single version of the plot, possibly original content, which doesn't have hard proofs, described as if it actually were that way. It's not encyclopedic at all, this article should be completely rewritten with other versions mentioned, and generally with some try to explain what really happened. It has a fair share of mistakes (if not direct lie) too, consider this:  
>The Kremlin doctors were arrested, but they were all Russian. To keep the conspiracy as Zionist, Ryumin and Semyon Ignatyev, who had succeeded Abakumov as head of the MGB, had the Jewish doctors Etinger supposedly specified also arrested; 
You can easily check that Etinger was arrested years before those Kremlin doctors, it was basically vice versa. So, what kind of anti-Semitic plot it is when you firstly arrest a Jew and then, not a few other Jewish doctors which were quite common in Soviet Russia, but a bunch of Russians? IMO the more plausible version it's Stalin was preparing yet another series of repressions vs some people in his entourage, possibly even vs Beria. He already did the same trick when he executed Yagoda, who supposedly used two doctors to kill Gorky. There are other versions too.
Also you probably didn't read that Russian comment in the thread, that person explained that this supposed mass deportation of Jews would be nearly economically impossible, and disregard what you may think of Stalin he, unlike Pol Pot etc communist leaders,  didn't do things which could actually ruin the economics of the country, Soviet Union became a super power after all. 217.118.64.53 (talk) 08:19, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles like this are the reason why many people don't treat Wikipedia as a serious source of information 

message: I has a very distinct recollection that this historian was discussed in talk page. I see not. Maybe it was elsewhere. Anyway, my two objections to removal this ref.
*Ref removal left some text unreferenced.
*I don't see how POV of the author influence the plain coverage of plain facts.
*I agree that his deductions may be removed without harm.
Therefore please lets review the disputed text piecewise. - üser:Altenmann >t 03:24, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Zhukov was described as an obvious antisemitic writer, for example here. According to the publication, Zhukov "borrowed" his ideas from Andrey Dikiy. Most statements were actually sourced to other publications, so there is no need to use Zhukov in most cases. I think that paragraph that starts from "According to Russian historian Yuri Zhukov..." should be removed because the meaning of the text is completely unclear. "According to Russian historian Yuri Zhukov, neither Malenkov nor Beria needed the plot to have an anti-Semitic character, but the secretary of ideology, N. Mikhailov, did not specify to newspapers and magazines what exactly was expected of them or pursued his own interests, and, after the initial Pravda article, the media emphasized Jewish names and a Zionist conspiracy. Mikhailov and the heads of agitprop had to soon intervene." What does it mean??? My very best wishes (talk) 04:10, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I wrote: we don't need his opinions. So no problemo to delete this piece. But the fact "of 9 there were 6 Jews" must be verified if ref removed. And so on. - üser:Altenmann >t 05:21, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. My very best wishes (talk) 13:25, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Citing Zhukov

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article text writes its title variously "Doctors' Plot", "doctors' plot", and "Doctors' plot". I don't have an opinion as to which we should use, but we should be consistent. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 15:53, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Stick to the article title. - Altenmann >talk 05:07, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistent capitalisation 

message: The opinions of significant academics of soviet history like Ian Grey and Zhores Medvedev and the lesser known albeit notable Brent and Noumov are hardly poor sources, in fact they are excellent sources. They are so excellent that Medvedev, Brent and Noumov are cited all thoughout the article. However by cheer coincidence (sarcasm) one editor only wants to remove the parts of the article that is sourced to them in which the view that Stalin fabricated the plot is challenged.
There is clearly scholarly debate on this topic and that shouldn't be censored.95.153.48.2 (talk) 13:22, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Censoring 

message: is making controversial changes without having discussed them. Pinging . --Jamez42 (talk) 19:53, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Jamez42 not all of it is changing words, most of it is source information and nothing else. What is wrong with those additions?110.74.199.28 (talk) 19:55, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:11, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: I saw a quote saying that the doctor's plot was going to happen as a prelude to a purge taking place before a hypothetical third world war, and the source is a Russian popular historian. Why is his conjecture in the first 5 paragraphs? I am planning on removing it. Jpegthebitmap (talk) 23:56, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Counterfactual and conjectural statement about WW3 

message: This page says March 2, but https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakov_Gilyarievich_Etinger says March 8 24.193.182.39 (talk) 23:15, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for noticing this. The article on Etinger was wrong. Source in Russian doesn't say March 8. He died on March 2. I've already fixed it in that article.--Brandonobaza (talk) 01:28, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yakov Etinger Death date inconsistent