Talk:Gelding

message: Thanks User:Montanabw! I couldn't seem to get the references to work - thanks for sorting it.
I was using NB as more academic to "by the way" or "please note", but it's not really a necessary addition.
(Dlh-stablelights 10:13, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just the wordsmith and grammar nerd.  Glad to help when possible. Montanabw 15:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikification

message: I think we might be nearly there - I've put in as many citations as I can. I've made a note of places I think the article might need something else with . If I've referenced something, and someone had something else in mind, please add your reference! I think if we can reference a few more bits and pieces (esp. the Arab and perhaps Roman connection), its certainly a good candidate for GA.
Dlh-stablelights 10:03, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Good Article?

message: I agree, but all that I could find... got lots of vet textbooks and papers, but not all that much on population genetics!
Dlh-stablelights 19:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have the access to stuff like wild horse studies and assorted psychology stuff.  I can do tweaks in that area.  No sweat. Montanabw 00:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reasons for gelding

message: B level works for me.  Maybe toss in some fact tags where they seem to be needed as a reminder to all (both?) editors to go dig up more citations? The other way to do this is to put it up for GA and let the vultures circle.  But I don't think it will quite pass, and hence B level is appropriate. Montanabw 16:42, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ranking 

message: This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of July 14th 2007, compares against the  six good article criteria:
:1. Well written?:  The intro needs major expansion work per the guidelines for size and content outlined in WP:LEAD. It should at least be one paragraph, if not two. In comparison to most other GA's, the article could use a decent infobox. This is easy to fix, but the section order is a bit off. A history should come first ideally. Also, while what is there is well-written, a better general flow of ideas comparable to other GA's may be in order. 
:2. Factually accurate?:  The article is well-sourced in reliable, independent publications.
:3. Broad in coverage?:  The article tends to focus mostly on the reasons for gelding and the mechanical/veterinary procedures. A more in-depth coverage of the history of the practice is sorely needed. 
:4. Neutral point of view?:  The article contains not a single significant mention (much less a section) on any objections to the practice, of which there are I'm sure many by the vocal animal rights lobby. In the section detailing reasons for gelding, it reads like a pamphlet on why a stallion should be gelded.
:5. Article stability?  The article is certainly stable, with no major edit wars in the recent past.
:6. Images?:  The lead image is rather small and not a great illustration. While I am a firm proponent of Wikipedia is not censored, the medical images further in the article nearly made me quite literally vomit. You may consider such articles as Brain surgery and Open heart surgery, which deal with subjects with the potential for equally gruesome images, but still manage to illustrate the procedure without being vulgar.
Thank you for your hard work!  VanTucky (talk) 00:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are being harsh to fail the article within moments without at least placing it on hold to allow the editors time to fix it.  That said, we can work in the intro and tune up the history, but there are many GA's out there without infoboxes, I have no clue what infobox is needed here, I don't think wikiproject veterinary medicine has one for its projects yet (Dlh, maybe you know.)  We can probably find the objections of PETA, I'm sure there is some fringe element that opposes the practice (and in the middle east, they seem to have some sort of psychological projection thing going on and only geld mules) but oddly enough, there in fact is remarkably little objection out there to gelding, probably because an ill-mannered stallion can kill you. Montanabw(talk) 16:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Hmm - as far as I can find out, even PETA approve of all forms of neutering, as an ethical aid to population control. I'll keep digging... Dlh-stablelights 21:16, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're looking at it the wrong way, then. If you can get enough shtuff, consider making an "ethical considerations" section, and put in the shtuff that says everyone supports it. ;-) I found some anti-castration stuff on the PETA website, using their search option. Dunno if that's quite the same thing... Ling.Nut 21:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Failed "good article" nomination

message: Would anyone mind if I changed the format of all the refs? I wanna make 'em more complete & consistent, but would also change them to a format I'm familiar with... --Ling.Nut 15:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed ref number 15 as an example; go back two slots in the history (the edit summaries are the same) & revert if you don't like it..--Ling.Nut 15:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Anything that makes them more correctly formatted works for me, I saw no problem with your changes.  DIH??  Montanabw(talk) 20:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  references complete &amp; consistent 

message: Got some good feedback on the article, putting it here to share.
I personally prefer "it" to "who" for wikipedia horse articles, as it's gender neutral, but no biggie.
Hi Montanabw, long time no see! Hope things are going well (other than Gelding, I mean)...
I sorta agree with what the reviewer said, but agree with you that it should have been put on hold rather than quick-failed:
The WP:LEDE definitely needs to be beefed up to make it a summary of the article. That should take a good fifteen minutes (or less, if you're faster/smarter than I am ;-) ). It's just a matter of copy/pasting the current lede to a Notepad doc, copy/pasting key sentences (you know, intros and/or conclusions) from each existing section of the article onto the same doc, then kinda smoothing it all out and making it "read pretty." 
You definitely need a section about what PETA-type people would say about castration, to comply with WP:NPOV. That might take a while, but if you're dedicated, you can get it done in under a week (hence my belief it should have been put on hold). If you're feeling particularly brave, you might ask them to provide their POV in a responsible manner. 
There are many punctuation probs. I might fix those, unless my better half calls me away from the computer ;-) 
Some of the shtuff reads a little like it might be too-nearly verbatim, e.g. "Geldings were once prized by classical steppe warriors for their silence; without mating urges, they were less prone to call out to other horses, easier to keep in groups, and less likely to fight with one another." Go through every sentence with a fine-toothed comb to look for that particular no-no. That might take a couple hours. 
I dislike the formatting of the references... seems incomplete & inconsistent. I "might could" help with that too, at the same time as I fix the punctuation (since the punct. probs are all with the refs).. if it's OK with you... 
Personally, I might consider changing the "Possible complications" section to read less like a list and more like prose, but it might actually be acceptable just as it is.. re-read Wikipedia:Embedded list and see what you think.. 
I think the pictures are gross, too. Is that actually a problem? I dunno, but I think I know who to ask. I'll do so, and get back to you. 
Later Ling.Nut 19:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If Dlh is OK with you tweaking the complications section, I am OK with it;
The images should be deleted, as Wikipedia is not a shock site. The article should educate people without displaying graphic content, and at least provide warnings to minors.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.112.40.182 (talk) 19:41, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

text: If you note the discussion above this section, you will see that consensus, particularly from medical professionals was to keep the images.  Montanabw(talk) 01:36, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Discussion 

message: It would be logical to crush the cord BEFORE removing testicles to avoid bleeding.  And not the other way round as you discribe it.  jmak (talk) 17:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Castration

message: would anyone object to the following image being added to the "reasons" section? VanTucky (talk) 00:56, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dunno. Looks kinda sexual to me. Kinky even. :-) Ling.Nut 01:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: You sure? It looks more like 'you break my back, i'll break yours'. Oh, and by the way sir, you appear to be one fine cowboy.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.168.131.203 (talk) 05:08, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  addition 

message: Interesting how this article is coming together with contrubutions from many editors and so far, minimal flame wars, even over the "are these images too gross?" question. So I thought a section on sheath cleaning and the hazards of smegma was needed!  Hope I didn't excessively screw up anyone else's work in the process of writing.   (By the way, on the topic of distasteful photos, note the image in smegma) :-P  
Also moved the history section up, and wonder where to put the "famous geldings" section, as that is kind of a kiddie section and really shouldn't follow the detailed section on surgical gelding procedures, but where else CAN we put it??
Anyway, hope my additions were an improvement, feel free to improve on what I wrote, and you really MUST read the refs, the second one in particular.  I laughed myself half to death!  Montanabw(talk) 06:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would suggest putting it as a sub-section of the History section. Or just deleting it as trivia. It's not cut-and-dry though. VanTucky (talk) 22:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's tricky, other articles that start naming horses become endless laundry lists and really do need to go, so far that hasn't happened here.  I like the idea of putting it into history, though. Montanabw(talk) 22:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not try and make it prose? "Throughout history, geldings have distinguished themselves in a variety of pursuits..." and then sentences for each animal and/or field. VanTucky (talk) 22:53, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Synergy 

message: well I hit the refs pretty hard but am near a stopping point. Many of the refs are websites; it would be good to replace these with articles, reports etc. whenever possible. Some of the website links go to the website's main page rather than the subpage where the info presumably is. I can't get the OK Univ. College of Vet. Medicine site to work at all; there was another that didn't work but I forget which. Just in general, you need to improve the quality of the refs. BUT in my opinion as a former GA reviewer, they are currently good enough for GA. I gotta go now.. Good luck with the article! :-) Ling.Nut 12:09, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Though it may not be the easiest to read, I personally like WP:FOOT (footnotes), which is a sub-topic of the main WP:CITE page. Also helpful are citation templates for different source types. Footnotes are the most widely-used form in my experience, next to Harvard referencing. VanTucky (talk) 22:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The social sciences always use Harvard (see Taiwanese aborigines).. I dunno about veterinary sciences; ask your colleagues. :-) I hate footnotes when used  as a format for referencing. Despise them. For Harvard, there are many templates.. see Wikipedia:Harvard citation template examplesLing.Nut 22:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm concerned about the History section, especially the Scythian war horse statement. Broad historical claims like that need to be cited in order for GA status. VanTucky (talk) 18:18, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Give me 5 minutes; I'll find & fix it ;-) 18:24, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: thanks Ling. VanTucky (talk) 18:36, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  references currently good enough for GA 

message: Yes, both hydrocoeles and schirrous cords can remain "occult", i.e. without showing any symptoms, then flare up months or years later. I didn't put hydrocoeles in becasue they're so rare, but I agree, wouldn't hurt to add them. Dlh-stablelights 13:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Schirrous cord

message: Any reason this is in :Category:Types of horses?Ealdgyth | Talk 19:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Categories

message: If I was going to review this article, I'd say BIG concerns about the lede. Should cover the history section, more information from the reasons, reasons not to geld, specialized maintenance, and methods of. (I can see every male cringing about that..) I'd want to work the list in the methods section into prose, so that it reads less like a how-to and more like a general overview. I'd vary my pictures, so they are right-left-right, so as not to bore the reader. I'd nix the famous gelding section, unless the history section expands greatly. History section should be bigger... did the medieval European's geld? Did the Arabs? Did the Bedouin? Did the East Asians? Did the Indians? You see where I'm going with that. Any information on historical techniques that aren't used any more? 
Citations. At a minimum, every paragraph should have a citation. I've marked a few that screamed for them.
Short choppy paragraphs. Try to merge or expand them into larger paragraphs so they don't make the prose flow feel short. 
Standardize the references, they are formated all sorts of ways.
Try to work the articles listed in the see also section into the text. If they are used in the text, like castration, they don't need to be listed at the end. In fact, consider moving a lot of the 'how to' stuff from the methods of castration to the castration article. 
I'll try to fit this article into my schedule .. sometime soon. AARRGH! Ealdgyth | Talk 20:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No real arguments here (other than how silly I think the "every paragraph needs a citation" rule is, it's artificial, sometimes every sentence needs one, other times, 2-3 paragraphs go to the same source, but I digress) and good job tagging the stuff that needed citations.  I would talk to Joelmills and dlh-stablelights (who are both vets and dlh wrote most of that section) before moving the castration techniques stuff out of here into a generic article about castration in general (may be stuff specific to horses, don't know...read the other article too).  But working in cites is a good idea, and Ling posted some additional citations elsewhere (in my talk archive) that may be helpful too.  Well, I guess we can each do what we can when we can (by the way, one of the sources for the sheath cleaning section is so hilarious that you will die laughing!). No huge rush.  Montanabw(talk) 21:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: GA pre-review

message: I have some concerns about the second how-to photo.  While I think it is fine to show different techniques for castration, I don't really like seeing the lack of gloves or both cords being simultaneously emasculated.  While I'm sure the operator's hands have been thoroughly scrubbed, and there are conditions under which this is the only option, I wouldn't do it.  Maybe because I live in California I'm paranoid, since if the horse had any complications after castration, I would easily lose a lawsuit for not wearing gloves.  
While using the emasculators on both cords simultaneously may save a bit of time, I don't think it allows for cutting the cords short enough, which in my opinion increases the risk of infection.  And in many animals, it would not do as good a job with hemostasis.  Particularly in mature animals, or in donkeys and mules, where (in my experience), bleeding seems to be more difficult to control.
This is really meant to be a discussion more than a criticism.  Do others share these concerns?  I would like to see a photo using aseptic technique and single cord emasculation.--Getwood (talk) 14:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Standard of care 

message: While I completely accept that the risk of anesthesia is very real, I would be in favor of tweaking the wording.  The current wording does not seem to be completely NPOV.  The leap that complications are higher in the field than in the study population is unsupported.  In fact, two things identified in that study that lean towards a decreased risk relative to the overall study population are short anesthetic time and use of injectable anesthetic.  While the less-than-ideal facilities in the field would likely increase complications somewhat, there needs to be a reference for the increased mortality rate for castrations.  I need to re-read the Rood & Riddle study, but I don't think it states that the risk of death for recumbent castrations is increased over the general anesthetized population.--Getwood (talk) 15:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anesthetic risks 

message: I shall defer to your veterinary expertise on these matters, for the most part. Just go for it, as you have been doing, and if there is non-vet stuff you want me to work on, throw in a few more "fact" tags and I'll grab those parts.  DlH Stablelights, who I think is a vet in the UK, did a bunch of the early writing on the techniques and much of the sourcing work, not sure if he's still editing Wiki or not, may want to check contribs log to see if he's still around and toss him a message if he is.  JoelMills, who I think is a small animal vet, is very active in wikiproject vet med overall, and it may be well worth checking in with him to see what he thinks.  Maybe a note at wikiproject veterinary medicine may get comments. User:VanTucky, who failed this article the first time we sent it up, edits a lot of the animal articles and may have a good wikipedia layperson's outlook when we get other matters cleaned up.  And, of course, no GA is complete without Ealdgyth's input.  
As for the castration photo, you are not the first to raise concerns about some of the technical issues involved.  I think it was an image taken in a third world nation, however.  I'll check the photo history and see if I can figure out anything.  Most of the earlier objections were just that it was kinda gross.  If I can figure out its origins, I may add some weasel words to the caption, or you can.  Montanabw(talk) 23:02, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assorted replies 

message: Unnecessary, bloody, and absolutely no educational value whatsoever except to fulfill some weirdo's bizarre curiosity about what horses testicles look like once removed from the scrotum! A drawing and a text description of the procedure would've sufficed! Next time I'll use a god damn dictionary! ▫Bad▫harlick♠ 10:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You obviously haven't seen the penis article yet. LOL!  Montanabw(talk) 05:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's different: there's no other place to put penis images but in the penis article. It makes just as much sense to put heavily graphical images of castration in the article about geldings than it is to put heavily graphical images of penises in articles like man or heavily graphical images of childbirth in articles like human. Also, it gives undue weight to the process of castration itself since the images attract the eye so much. I decided to remove the images from the article, but they would be more welcome in the article about castration (which lacks any images): feel free to re-add them there. --PocketDocket (talk) 00:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: PocketDocket, I've reverted your edit. Although you may consider these images "gross", others, including myself, consider them encyclopedic. WP is not censored, and castration is a central part of a gelding being a gelding. I agree that this article does need some work before it's considered to be of good article status, but removing pictures that illustrate a central part of the article, without discussion, is not the way to go about that work. Dana boomer (talk) 00:56, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

text:  And I concur with Dana on this. They aren't up at the top of the article, they are further down in the text, and they are of value to understanding the subject. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:01, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Furthermore, the process of castrating horses is probably somewhat off topic  in the castration article as the issues raised there also concerns the practice in human society.  Gelding is both a noun AND a verb, after all! ;-)  Montanabw(talk) 21:38, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Then I strongly advise that you don't look up the article on penis...note I didn't wikilink it.  I believe there is also an article on smegma.  There are a lot of other articles in wikipedia that have stomach-turning qualities (haggis?), so  all I can say is if you can point to a wiki manual of style guideline on warning people that an image may be offensive to some, that could be useful, but wikipedia is not censored.  Montanabw(talk) 20:40, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Get off your forcibly castrated high horse.  Crude and almost entirely useless photographs of a horse's severed nutsack are hardly providing a great service in the interests of free information for all (squeamish?  FASCIST.  easily upset?  FASCIST).  I'm well aware castrating a horse involves blood and scissors, largely because I'm not an idiot.  Whilst I would ordinarily strongly support shoving graphic depictions of socially acceptable animal cruelty in the faces of those who turn a blind eye to it, the same compassionate principle means I'd rather not have it thrown in my fucking face.  Someone please explain how these images remaining while similarly graphic images related to abortion or amputation are removed is for any other reason besides nobody really giving a shit about mutilated horses.  --Jemimallah (talk) 00:11, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gross! 

message: Can now add Mine That Bird to the list  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.173.0.16 (talk) 12:45, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: From the article ..."and 2009 Kentucky Derby winner Mine That Bird." Ealdgyth - Talk 12:53, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gelding famous race horses 

message: I am unsure whether the reference in the Bible forbids the practice of gelding, or whether it just forbids the sacrifice of gelded animals. Black.jeff (talk) 08:43, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What's the precise ref??  We can dig into that a bit.  I know that Muslim culture has similar issues.  Montanabw(talk) 02:34, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The existing reference, directly from the Torah, is a primary source claim, so I have marked it as such.  Moreover, the texts I looked up (at the link provided to the existing source) in the KJV and the Amplified versions of the English bible seem to state reasonably clearly that the application is only to sacrificial animals.  I believe this is supported by the fact that the biblical book of Leviticus was priestly instructions given to the explicitly selected group of priests called Levites.  Finally, in addition to a primary source claim generally not being the best source for verifiability in Wikipedia, any de jure law or regulation about what the Israelites should do (normatively) says little or nothing about what the Israelites actually practiced in various periods of their history.  I have tried to annotate the sentence in the existing article text in a constructive and helpful way to allow other editors to provide a better source or clarify the claim(s).  N2e (talk) 14:33, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Forbiden in the Bible 

message: How in the world is this sanitary let alone acceptable behavior? Why don't they just fix the animal. How can cutting of the genitalia not be a prosecutable offense. The picture below is extremely disturbing for someone who doesn't give animal righs much meaning.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.230.3.250 (talk) 02:42, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I propose you introduce this topic to any of the Internet's many discussion forums, as Wikipedia is not one. Plese remember that article discussions are reserved for discussing the article, not the subject of the article. Pitke (talk) 03:33, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legal? Ethical? Sanitary?  

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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