Talk:Ms.

message: quick straw poll on whether to move this article: what do style guides around the world say for the full stop after Mr, Ms, Mrs?
* Fowler: non
**Actually Fowler does deal with it, giving the account that give below. Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 09:14, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Canadian Oxford, the Globe and Mail Style Book, and the Little, Brown Essential Handbook for Writers all use the period for Ms., as well as for Mr. and Mrs. - Montréalais 20:45, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: The 'Style Guide for Authors, Editors and Printers' by AusInfo/the Australian Government Publishing Service prefers 'Ms', along with 'Mr' and 'Mrs'. FWIW, they recommend the pronunciation listed in the Macquarie Dictionary, which is /m@z/ (i.e. with the relaxed vowel of about, rather than the vowel of 'mister'). 203.82.183.147 07:58, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: American (that apparently includes all of North America) usage always demands periods after abbreviated titles. No period is strictly British usage, and that of and most of its colonies and former recent colonies. Softlavender 11:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I too say (and hear) mz. Njál 20:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was also taught no period - basically, Ms is it's own word, it's not an abbreviation for anything; but on those occasions when it comes up it becomes clear to me that NO ONE ELSE (except 65.209.165.170) was taught that.  Similar disagreements occur regarding often. Fitfatfighter 04:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Full Stop Or Not

message: Somewhere, I'd like to put a note to the effect that a "Miss vs Mrs" equivalent does exist for men.  It's not used at all in the United States as far as I know, but I certainly remember being called by the title "Master" when I was in England.  Is this still current usage, and where would be a good place to note it?  It's an interesting tidbit... Isomorphic 01:04, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: How long is it ago that you were in England?  It's certainly not in common usage anymore.  Except for maybe extremely posh parts of the country.  And Captain Pugwash.  --Maikel 14:28, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: PS:  according to the Wikipedia article on Master (form of address), the title has never been intended for unmarried or "virginal" men.  In fact, quite to the contrary.  --Maikel 15:12, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Master isn't widely used in the UK, but it's widely understood as being a male child. For example, the card game Happy Families demonstrates this readily. A lot of children still play games like these. The Warburton's website even has an interactive version! Ithika 15:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Master

message: I've just added the standard British English (without the full stop — which I'd have thought was peculiar even in U.S. English). The standard British approach is that the full stop is used to mark the cutting off of a word at that point (such as "Street" to "St."), but not otherwise (so "Saint" to "St", as well as "Mr", "Mrs", "Dr", etc.).  Needless to say, many people get it wrong, and English is no longer really taught in schools... but that's another issue. Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 09:14, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Try telling that to the folks over at Ms. magazine.  --Maikel 15:16, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

text: American usage is not British usage. "Ms." is an American term. Therefore the article gets American usage. Softlavender 11:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No it isn't an American term, hence the article has both. 81.107.23.175 (talk) 22:16, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

text: Americans not having proper grammar is not an issue of the British. 81.107.23.175 (talk) 22:16, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: No Stop For The Wicked

message: Ms. (or Ms) is a title used with the last name or full name of a woman.
Is "Miss" or "Ms." used alone as a term of respect in inner city regions of the US?
--zandperl 20:00, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ms. is Ms. in the U.S., just as we use Mrs. and Mr. (not Ms or Mr or Mrs -- she'd be Mrs. Miniver here!) I pronounce Ms. as miz, rhymes with whiz, liz, fizz; otherwise it's hard to say. --136.183.17.106 21:42, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

text: African American and southern cultures (inner city or otherwis) have used the pronunciation "miz" for both Mrs. and Miss since at least the 1800s. This was not an early use of the term "Ms.", simply a uniform pronunciation of the other terms, probably originally a colloquial shortening from the blanket term "Mistress" which evolved into all the other terms. Njsustain (talk) 13:08, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ms., full stop (period), as per 15th ed. of Chicago 

message: I've moved this addition by an anon editor to the Talk page; can anyone provide citations for these claims?
:"During the 1950s and 1960s in the United States, "Ms." was the correct form of address when writing to a woman whose marital status was unknown to the writer. (Miss was reserved for unmarried women of any age; Mrs. referred to a married woman.) Because the title Ms. did not refer to a woman's marital status, its usage was championed as non-sexist language beginning in the 1970s, by those who argue that a woman's marital status is irrelevant and should not be revealed by her title. Starting in the 1970s, many women insisted on being called Ms. because they shared that perspective. A feminist magazine chose the title Ms. because it did not indicate a woman's marital status. As time went on, those who preferred to be addressed as "Ms." were perceived as feminists, and those who did not choose to be so perceived avoided the term, leading to the misapprehension that "Ms." was a term coined by 1970s-era feminists and to the politicization of the term."
--Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 22:38, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved passage from article 

message: Here's something that I can't get my mind around:  what's the point in introducing a new term "Ms" that is pronounced exactly like "Miss", i. e. the term one tries to deprecate?  Why not just use "Mrs." [MISSIS] for all women, regardless of their marital status? --Maikel 14:44, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Although 'Ms' can be pronunced like 'Miss', it is not necessarily so. Most people pronoucne the S as a Z, and many people pronounce the vowel like in About, rather than in Miss. Also, Ms is trying to depricate not only Miss, but also Mrs, so what would be the point in using a new term Mrs that is pronounced (and written) exactly like Mrs, i.e. the term one tries to depricate? Why not just use 'Miss' (with a small spelling change and perhaps a pronunciation change, to reduce the chance of confusion) for all women, regardless of their marital status? —Felix the Cassowary (ɑe hɪː jɐ) 00:28, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the info on pronunciation.  As for the substitution of "Miss" and "Mrs" by "Ms", my position is that the simple deprecation of "Miss" -- i. e. the general usage of "Mrs" for all women regardless of their marital status -- would have been the better and far easier solution;  incidentally, and for instance, this is how the problem has been addressed in France and Germany. --Maikel 13:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Maikel -- "Ms." is NEVER pronounced "Miss." To do so would invalidate the creation of the term in the first place. It is always pronounced "Mizz." To pronounce it other wise is incorrect. Softlavender 11:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation

message: The article mentions that the non-sexist form of address in Spanish is señora, but it's been my understanding that if I do not know a woman's marital status (or whether she's a virgin or not, which is supposedly also used as a distinction between señora and señorita), the safest route is always to use señorita, even if it's an 80-year-old woman.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.7.222.240 (talk) 19:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: señor, ra  4.  m. y f. Persona respetable que ya no es joven. (A respectable person who is not young anymore). Any woman older than, say 50, shouldn't be surprised if called señora. Even older nuns are called señora (and I doubt that younger nuns are called señorita). Lubrom (talk) 15:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spanish ''Señora''/''Señorita'' 

message: Just like British and American English present different ways of addressing, however minor they may be, so it happens with Portuguese. Portuguese as spoken in Portugal presents important differences from Portuguese as spoken in Brazil. As such, a Brazilian would call a young unmarried woman as senhorita, but not a Portuguese, who would say menina.
Since this is the first time I'm doing any sort of editing at Wikipedia, I feel a bit uncertain about editing the article. However, the examples at the end ought to have the Portuguese with the two words, senhorita / menina.
Sarai
--85.240.249.102 18:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portuguese ''Senhorita'' 

message: For some reason the citation I gave has irregular spacing in the "Notes" section - there's an enormous space between two of the words ("Cultural" and "Heritage"). Does anyone know how to fix it? --DearPrudence 02:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations - problem with spacing 

message: Removed as the specifics of this interview aren't relevant to the subject matter. 195.24.29.51 13:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The tape was erased for re-use by volunteers who regarded the Women's Movement as a joke." 

message: Ms. is an American invention. Why is this written with a very clear and noticeable UK slant, even mentioning the titles of nobility in the first sentence? Why are style standards quoted from UK publications and not American?
And why is it claimed that most women prefer to style themselves Miss or Mrs.? That's clearly incorrect.
Bottom line: As "Ms." is an American word, this article needs Americn punctuation, American citations, and American usages. Softlavender 09:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PS: Done. Article so edited. Softlavender 10:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Hi -- Nowhere did I state that U.S. usage is or should be Wikipedia default -- only that this article about an American word should be U.S. usage except where British usage is described. Also, it was I (not "someone") that retained the British usage when Britain is discusssed -- you can verify that by the versions I produced. Lastly, thank you very much for providing a U.S. citation. All of my reference books (e.g. CMS) were lost in a move. Softlavender (talk) 04:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Hi -- MS. is not an American word. Cheers 81.107.23.175 (talk) 22:13, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

text: This section seems to be making a lot of unreferenced social commentary rather than stating facts. It will need to be referenced and/or pared down. This isn't a place for random observations by individuals.Njsustain (talk) 12:40, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Also, I don't see a problem with UK and US usages in the article. I do have a problem with the article being written as if one is the default. Njsustain (talk) 12:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Inaccuracies and odd UK slant of article

message: Someone has requested a citation for "... British school children may also address female teachers as Miss regardless of marital status." This is a simple fact of British society and, in my opinion, does not need a citation to support it although I can understand non-Brits questioning this. Finding material that demonstrates this and including proof that the teacher is indeed married may be difficult. Laurie Lee's short story Village School features the crabby Miss B and her successor Miss Wardley. The children address Miss Wardley saying "Oh, miss, please miss, can I go round the back?" and "Please, miss, I got to stay 'ome tomorrow...". Does anyone know of a suitable citation where a married teacher is addressed as "Miss"?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.178.181.71 (talk) 11:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In the U.S. many school teachers still go by "Mrs." and alter their last names even though that is becoming far less common in business. It actually seems a bit odd these days... a bit archaic and self-depracating in a way... not that anyone doesn't have a right to style themselves in whatever way they like... but when the default is to alter your persona due to a marriage, it seems a bit unprofessional. But teaching is its own world. Njsustain (talk) 12:57, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, I live the southern US and that's the opposite of how we did things.  Thought Miss, Mrs. or Ms. might be used in writing (and have distinct pronunciations), in practice I think all our female teachers were called "Miss Lastname" by the most of the students.  I think there might have been one or two students who called them all "Miz Lastname." Actually, I can't think of a specific occasion where I heard the word "Mrs." directed at a person in my childhood, much less anyone regularly referred to as such.  I'm sure it was used, but I don't really recall it. But we're weird in the South, I guess.  216.226.176.142 (talk) 18:26, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: With UK schools, there is a definite variation based on factors such as region and in particular, whether the school is fee-paying or a state school.  I went to a state school and an independent (fee-paying) secondary school, both in middle-class districts of north London, and at both schools no one ever called a teacher "miss" alone.  You always called them by a title reflecting their marital status (I don't recall Ms being used at schools in the eighties and early nineties), or Dr if appropriate, and their surname, e.g. Miss Taylor, Mrs Moore, Dr Roberts.  I don't honestly know how many schools use this, but it could easily be a minority.  When I've seen TV shows set at state schools, "miss" alone seems to be the norm.Elettaria (talk) 10:38, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I understood that female schoolteachers were addressed Ma'am.--90.206.67.139 (talk) 15:01, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

text: The article needs a citation where it makes generalizations about usage of "Miss" in the Southern US. The author appears to summarize/paraphrase from the Wikipedia entry on "Miss," which refers to the 1970s American television series, "Dallas," and an older and also fictional source, "Gone With the Wind." The "Miss" article also lacks a citation. When I attended elementary school in the Southern US in the late 1960s to early 1970s, our school principal referred to female teachers (phonetically) as "Mizzerz" when they were married and Miss when they were not. By intermediate and high school, I noticed different teachers being referred to as Ms. (Mizz), Mrs. (Missez), and Miss (Miss) (depending, I gather, on the teacher's preference). The students by this time often referred to teachers (when the teachers were not around), by their first names or colorful nicknames and often by no name at all when addressing them, particularly when eye contact was established. In formal response, the students sometimes replied with a "yes (or no) ma'am or sir," but such formality was uncommon beyond elementary school in my observation. In any case, the titles that children use to address their teachers is hardly evidence of the teacher's preference, and works of fiction are less relevant still. My own experience belongs to me, of course, but it is more substantial than a made-up tv situation or a deep reach into a fictional account of the American Civil War era as applied to the year 2012. During my childhood interactions outside of school, I do recall married women being referred to as Mrs. in many cases and Ms. in a few cases where someone's mother stated that to be her preference. Most working women I know in the Southern US today, whether married or not, use Ms. or their professional title, such as Dr., Professor, etc., in both personal and professional situations.    Marie Provost (talk) 17:16, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Teacher called "Miss" 

message: There was a second pronunciation listed for the schwa sound instead of the short i sound. The schwa sound is incorrect -- I've never heard it pronounced that way in 37 years, and I can find no printed substantiation of that, so I removed it. (Besides, as far as I am aware, the schwa sound occurs in polysyllabic words, not in single-syllable words.) Softlavender (talk) 04:47, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's often pronounced with the schwa sound in the UK. Although it is a single-syllable word, it doesn't have a written vowel, so a lot of people pronounce it without a vowel.Bluewave (talk) 12:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I've been looking around for substantiation of this and there certainly some examples where it is rendered phonetically as "muz", which I take to be an attempt at the schwa sound. For example, "Don't call me Muz", "Muz Germaine Greer", "I've always pronounced Ms as muzz". Bluewave (talk) 13:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: I fixed the pronunciation

message: The plural of mister is messrs. What is the plural of ms? --Camaeron (talk) 20:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *Mss. or Mses. according to http://www.merriam-webster.com  -- DanielPenfield (talk) 16:24, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Plural

message: I feel this should be clarified by the addition of '...in the USA'; it is unwarranted when applied to the UK. The citation for that point - 'Emily Post Etiquette Institute' - is also inaccurate for localities outside the USA. Strangely the article includes (further down) 'citation needed' for the fact that usage in the UK is sparse to say the least (outside of the BBC), yet I struggle to see how one can possibly provide a definitive citation aside from the fact that anyone in the UK would simply know it to be true (any online 'citation' would be no more useful or applicable than the Emily Post page). Yet twice this article suggests that Ms. is a universal standard for business correspondence. This is just not true in the UK (and I suspect anywhere outside the USA) except among the 'right-on' brigade. 82.36.75.208 (talk) 14:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the UK default?  If you're writing a letter to a businesswoman in the UK, do you default to Mrs or Miss?  Or do you actually have to waste time finding out if she's married? Ariadne55 (talk) 16:07, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Agree with 82.36.75.208, although I would go further to say that to claim that some stylistic choice is 'the default for business correspondance', whether in the UK or the world at large, is highly POV, and pretty ill-defined to boot. Last time I checked, not everyone writes according to the same standards. Please (Ariadne55), don't edit the article to assert that it is the 'default for business correspondance' until we can achieve a consensus. Also: some website's (heavily prescriptivist) guidelines on what should be used in correspondance is not a good source for what is actually used, as in the claim it is being used to support, regardless of how "well-respected" you reckon it is. 219.79.186.13 (talk) 09:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There are accepted standards for business correspondence. For instance, one would not send out a résumé on a purple index card. Emily Post's site is a perfectly reasonable cite; I've added a wikilink to show that. If you don't accepted the Emily Post Institute as an etiquette source, what etiquette expert would you suggest?  The word "claims" is POV. I've changed it to "states", which is neutral. I've limited the quote to the U.S., though 82.36.75.208 never did respond about what businesspeople in the UK do.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ariadne55 (talk • contribs) 12:59, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: (I am 219.79.186.13) I like the current revision, although I disagree that "claims" is POV in any way, as it is true that the source makes that claim. However, I would say that "states" is largely interchangable, so it's simply a matter of taste. Also, I'd be very comfortable removing "In the US," as the source makes no reference to geogrphical regions, as far as I can see. There is a superfluous period: I'll remove that, and leave "In the US", so you can discard it if you wish to. Few comments: a statement like "There are accepted standards for business correspondence. For instance, one would not send out a résumé on a purple index card." is fine in Talk, but carries no weight in actual articles unless you have (excellent, considering the broadness of the claim) sources to back it up. The thing is, unless you have something such as a wide-ranging survey,  a statement like that can only really be treated as your opinion, or as WP:OR. Even then, the only way to really reduce POV to a reasonable level is to directly state something along the lines of <A study conducted in YYYY by ORGANISATION concluded that "DIRECT QUOTE">. Gonelegit (talk) 15:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The default for business correspondence...

message: As a francophone, I would like to seriously question the affirmation that the word "madame" is used for both married and unmarried women. It's a rather clumsy faux-pas to use the term "madame" for an unmarried woman and one is held to use "mademoiselle" when your common sense suggests that the person is unmarried (clued in by age or other factors) or when told the person goes under the honourific "mademoiselle". For instance, you would never employ the term "madame" for a late-teen or early twenties woman unless you know for a fact she is married. Address her as "madame" and she likely would correct you on the spot with a "ah non, c'est mademoiselle".
:We don't have a citation for that claim (or the parallel claims for other European languages). So I've removed it. Here it is for discussion.
::In other European languages, non-sexist usage in this regard usually amounts to using words more or less equivalent to Mrs. (madame, Fr.; señora, Es.; senhora, Pt.; signora, It.; Frau, De.; bean-uasal, Ga. and Gd.) for both married and unmarried women, and whether they take their husband's name or not. This makes sense as these are usually the direct feminine equivalents of the male counterparts (monsieur, Fr.; señor, Es.; senhor, Pt.; signore, It.; Herr, De.; máistir, Ga.; maighstir, Gd.), whereas the equivalent of Miss is a diminutive of the female equivalent (mademoiselle, Fr.; señorita, Es.; menina/senhorita, Pt.; signorina, It.; Fräulein, De.; ógbhean-uasal, Ga.; maighdeann-uasal, Gd.).
:Anyone want to comment on (and provide citations for) the forms of address in these languages? --FOo (talk) 17:35, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The terms may be of French origin, but they are English if used in the English language, and therefore may be used in a different way than they were used in the language from which it was derived. In English speaking countries, the U.S. in particular, it is presumptuous and rude to alter how an adult is addressed based on age. If one does not know if an adult woman is married or not, calling her "ma'am" or "madam" is perfectly correct. Calling someone other than an adolescent or younger "mademoiselle" would be considered condescending or patronizing. Even if you know she is not married, addressing her as such would be considered patronizing in most cases unless she specifically requested to be addressed that way. These forms of address are terms of respect, not ways to point out whether a person is married or not, which is irrelevent in modern interactions. It is this very reason that the title "Ms." was resurrected... because the marital status is not something that needs to be pointed out in polite company. Therefore "Madam" is univerally accepted in English. The fact that the French have not created an equivalent status which has a neutral marital status is irrelevent.  I have no citations specific to this issue, and the article is on "Ms." not "Madam", so I won't be adding anything to the article.Njsustain (talk) 15:00, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  French use for Madame/Mademoiselle questioned 

message: In my work I have to sometimes translate things from Dutch (native) to English. Came across something that puzzled me. In Dutch, a name like Marianne de Vries will have capitalisation in the Dutch Mevrouw De Vries ('mevrouw' being 'Mrs(.)/Ms(.)'). What happens when I write in English? Ms(.) de Vries or Ms(.) De Vries? (Please note that in Flemish names of Dutch origin other rules apply; I'm not even going into the 'van der Meulen/Van der Meulen/Van Der Meulen' varieties). Any styleguides deal with that? Personally I think it would be a good addition to the article (as that very question was the reason I looked up the wikipage) but perhaps others think otherwise? Or is it just common sense and you should go with your 'own' language's system? --Charades (talk) 10:11, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This issue is not related to the title used, so it would not be appropriate to add to this article. There is simply no situation in which the name would sometimes be capitalized and sometimes not capitalized. To answer your question, in English it is standard to use the name the person wishes. I would suggest that when writing in English for a Dutch audience, use the Dutch capitalization rules. If writing for an English for a non-Dutch (English speaking) audience, stick with the unaltered base name (such as "Ms. Marianne de Vries").Njsustain (talk) 14:50, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of Ms(.) with foreign last names 

message: The old pronunciation section just listed four pronunciations, ID'ing none of them as more or less standard, stressed vs. unstressed, etc.  For say a foreigner trying to figure out how to pronounce it, just giving a bunch like this won't help.  My dictionary, "Webster's New World College Dictionary", which is a medium-large dictionary at 1,669 8.5x11in pages, and which focuses primarily on American usage, only lists one, .  This is clearly the stressed form in General American.  When nonstressed, GA'ers might say , but in faster speech more likely  or even  before a voiceless consonant.  In general, when giving pronunciations, we should focus on the "standard" pronunciations, i.e. General American and RP for British; identify the fact that we're giving standard pronunciations (which might not be universal) and identify variant contexts (e.g. stressed vs. unstressed, American vs. British).  The reason for this is not to try and force the standards down anyone's throat but simply to avoid having what we had here: a large, random collection of variants, none identified as to which to use in which circmcumstance.  Trying to list lots of dialect pronunciations just leads to a mess; and besides, the point of these
pronunciations is mostly for foreigners, who will (naturally) want to learn the standard language of their adopted country.  Native English speakers already know the pronunciation. Benwing (talk) 06:53, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation of Ms. 

message: "In areas such as the American South, a woman's first name or "Miss", with the inclusion of her first name is the title used and generally preferred for women of any age regardless of marital status." 
I dispute this. I'm a lifelong southerner and I'd agree that it is common for children to do that or adults in front of children or in very informal situations, but in the business community or in more formal situations, it'd be almost unheard of. I second the "citation needed" tag. 108.93.144.242 (talk) 04:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The South 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Since single mothers are deemed to be unmarried women, is it correct to address such women as Ms. <surname>? If the mother has a daughter, then there's a need to distinguish the two if their surname is used in shorthand. Example, the older Ms. <surname> refers to the mother and the younger Ms. <surname> refers to her daughter. SignOfTheDoubleCross (talk) 07:48, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Any woman, married or otherwise, can be addressed as "Ms."—that's the beauty of it. But, conventionally, "Mrs." only applies to married women and only when they use their husbands' surnames. With your hypothetical, I think I'd call the mother "Ms. Smith" and the daughter "Miss Smith." Rebbing 14:53, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Appropriate for single mothers? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I heard that 'Ms' was first used as a convenient honorific for women in general by the American mail-order houses in the 1920's. Valetude (talk) 01:09, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins in mail order? 

message: Some women take on their husband’s surname and the title Mrs when they get married. Some women prefer to keep their surname and use the title Ms --Backinstadiums (talk) 15:58, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Married woman 

message: Fowler reads 
 The plural is Mss(.) or Mses 
--Backinstadiums (talk) 09:04, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Mses." ? 

message: This article seems to make no mention of this usage.
* https://www.google.com/search?q=%22ms+marple%22 100k+ references to Agatha Christie's "Miss Marple" as "Ms Marple" or "Ms. Marple"
* https://www.google.com/search?q=%22ms+marple%22+%22miss+marple%22 4k+ examples using "Miss Marple" and "Ms Marple" interchangeably on the same page.
* https://www.google.com/search?q=%22ms+landers%22+beaver 1k+ references to "Miss Landers" from "Leave it to Beaver" as "Ms Landers" or "Ms. Landers"
* https://www.google.com/search?q=dolly+parton+%22ms+mona%22+-miss 100+ references to the Dolly Parton's character "Miss Mona" as "Ms Mona" or "Ms. Mona"
This seems prevalent enough to be worth mention. Is independently published research on this pattern necessary to get this usage mentioned in the article?
Sparr (talk) 15:45, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of "Ms." as abbreviation for "Miss"