Talk:Benin Bronzes

message: The term "TRIBAL ART" should not be used to discuss pre-developed art techniques as the word "tribal" denotes a small group of people, and not an underdeveloped state of technology or intelligence; though many such tribes of Africans hundreds of years ago did not have as developed cultures as today's societies the term is generally accepted as derogatory in the art history world.
:That's why the term is used in a historical sense, to describe false assumptions made in the nineteenth century. Warofdreams talk 03:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: **Some of the books on Benin art:
*Paula Ben-Amos: The Art of Benin, Thames & Hudson, London, 1980. (Rev. ed., British Museum Press, London and Smithsonian Inst., Washington, 1995)
*Paula Ben-Amos and Arnold Rubin (eds.): The Art of Power/The Power of Art, Fowler Museum of Cultural History, UCLA, Los Angeles, 1983.
*Paula Girshick Ben-Amos: Art, Innovation and Politics in 18th Century Benin, Indiana UP, 1999.
*Robert Elwyn Bradbury: The Benin Kingdom and the Edo-speaking Peoples of South-western Nigeria, London, 1957.
*Robert Elwyn Bradbury: Benin Studies, London, 1973.
*Graham Connah: The Archaeology of Benin, Oxford UP a. Claredon Press, 1975.
*Philip J. C. Dark: An Introduction to Benin Art and Technology, Oxford, 1973.
*William Buller Fagg: Nigerian Images, London, 1963.
*Kunst aus Benin, (Sammlung Hans Meyer), Leipzig, 2002.
*Joseph Marquart: Die Benin-Sammlung des Reichsmuseums für Völkerkunde in Leiden etc., Leiden, 1913.
*Augustus Henry Lane-Fox Pitt-Rivers: Antique Works of Art from Benin, London, 1900.
*Barbara Plankensteiner (ed.): Benin etc. (Wiener/Berliner Katalog).
*Thorsten Spahr: Benin. Künste und Traditionen, Mammendorf, 2006.
*Thorsten Spahr: Benin. Bibliography, Mammendorf, 2006.
*Frank Willett: Ife in the History of West African Sculpture, London, 1967.
*Annie Coombes, Reinventing Africa, Yale UP, 1994
**Weblinks:
*perhaps slightly confusing, much information
England has Benin collections in London and Oxford, but lost most of the loot to the continent, then to the United States: Austria (Vienna)/Netherlands (Leiden)/Switzerland /(Basle, Geneve, Zurich) and Germany (Berlin, Hamburg, Leipzig, Dresden, Stuttgart, Munich and Cologne). 
USA: Chicago, Field Museum (early pieces; some given to the museum by A.W.F. Fuller), Philadelphia
Felix von Luschan at Berlin was a most important early collector and writer on Benin art. Source: catalogues of recent Berlin and Vienna Benin exhibitions.--Radh (talk) 16:44, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Important collections 

message: I've moved the page back to Benin Bronzes after its unilateral move a few weeks back.
Yes, there are bronzes from Benin that are not plaques like the ones we deal with here, but that doesn't mean that "Benin Bronzes" is not the WP:Commonname for them. Plus, if someone searches "Benin Bronzes", 99.9 times out of 100, this is what they are looking for. The "Benin Bronze plaques" distinction just creates added and unnecessary confusion! Brigade Piron (talk) 09:41, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The wording in the lede about the pre-existence of Benin metallurgy -- particularly in the third paragraph -- is something less than clearly written.  To wit: "Initially and naively, it appeared incredible to the discoverers that people 'supposedly so primitive and savage' were responsible for such highly developed objects.  Some even concluded that Benin knowledge of metallurgy came from the Portuguese traders who were in contact with Benin in the early modern period.  Today, it is clear that the bronzes were made in Benin from an indigenous culture. Many of these dramatic sculptures date to the thirteenth century, centuries before contact with Portuguese traders, and a large part of the collection dates to the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. It is believed that two 'golden ages' in Benin metal workmanship occurred during the reigns of Esigie (fl. 1550) and of Eresoyen (1735-50), when their workmanship achieved its highest qualities."  Most confusing here is the way that the date of first contact with the Portugese is stated -- "in the early modern period" -- a term that carries nearly no actual meaning to most readers.  In fact, the first recorded contact between the two groups was in about 1484, which is well before the two "golden ages" stated.  By omitting the actual year of Portugese contact, it gives the impression that Benin metallurgy had already reached its maturity before interaction with Europeans when no such thing has been established in the lede.  I would like to see someone re-craft that section to give a clearer picture of the interaction with not just the Portugese but any other possible early influences upon Benin metallurgy, such as the neighboring Igbo-Ukwu, whose own metallurgical traditions predate those of Benin. Bricology (talk) 21:07, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: There's other questionably-worded passages in the article as well; for example at the end: These great Benin artisans refined that technique until they were able to cast plaques only an eighth-of-an-inch thick, surpassing the art as practiced by Renaissance "masters" in Europe. Note how the word "masters" is mockingly put in quotation marks; especially I would note that European brass plaques were produced in a much different manner (fine engraving and not sculpted high relief) and comparison is thus out of place. 188.194.235.7 (talk) 23:22, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wording in lede re. Portugese influence 

message: * "Probably no other form of African art is as well known as the brass figures and plaques of Benin." African Mid Sculpture, p.45
* Also there's a good section on how the bronzes were stored in the British Museum's Museum of Mankind c. 1983 in  (pp. 204–205) czar 22:07, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good quote 

message: The Benin Bronzes were at the center of an extended and very significant debate about the repatriation of art. I don't have the background to write that section, but I believe it's noteworthy enough to be discussed at least briefly in this Wikipedia article. Jk180 (talk) 19:20, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It is mentioned, rather briefly, as is the fact (not covered by most recent press) that 30 of them were returned, for cash, decades ago. Johnbod (talk) 18:24, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussing the repatriation debates? 

message: The infobox artifact has three fields, currently used on this page, relating to the "discovery" of the Benin Bronzes, which result in the following text displaying: 
Discovered: From 1897 on, Royal Palace of the Kingdom of Benin (in present-day Nigeria)
Discovered by: British forces
I do not believe it is appropriate to use the term "discovered" in this context. They were never lost - they were ransacked from where they were on display. It is appropriate to say in the infobox where they were from, and where they are now. But not to imply that they were 'discovered' - that is not NPOV term in this context. Wittylama 14:36, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The Infobox Artifact template, clearly designed for single archaeological finds, is also singularly unhelpful in this article. Even if this issue is resolved, what exactly does it add for our readers to know that they are "mainly brass" and "mainly in the British Museum, others scattered around Europe and the United States"? These vague statements can be set out far more helpfully in the opening sentences of the article. I note it was only added to the article in the last few months. —Brigade Piron (talk) 14:50, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

text: Also agree. I'm also rather dubious that the pieces all "decorated the royal palace of the Kingdom of Benin" - most yes, but were there no other sites? Johnbod (talk) 15:07, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "discovered" in infobox 

message: Line in current lede. I question both its accuracy and NPOV. The bronzes were taken by British Forces during a punitive expedition, in retaliation for the massacre in January, 1897 of a British party intent on visiting (and perhaps overthrowing) the King (Oba) of Benin. The British party included 250 African soldiers, but their weapons were hidden in the baggage train. In a surprise attack, Benin military forces annihilated the British-led party. Only two Britons survived. The British promptly organized a punitive military expedition, which conquered Benin City and deposed the Oba in February 1897. Atrocities by British-led forces were reported, and the British Consul George Annesley had documented knowledge of same. He was later, per our article, "quietly pensioned off:" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benin_Expedition_of_1897#Aftermath
Everything that the British forces found in Benin City that appeared to have any value in Britain was looted, and the Admiralty confiscated and auctioned off much the war booty to defray the costs of the expedition. Which is how many of the Bronzes reached Continental museums, and how West African art became a fashionable influence in early Modern Art.
Soldiers have taken war booty for as long as there have been soldiers, and armies, and enemies with valuables worth taking!
So. I propose substituting "looted" for "stolen" in the lede, as an NPOV and historically-accurate alternative. --Pete Tillman (talk) 18:29, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made that change before and now I've made it again. I agree that "looted" is a better word. Srnec (talk) 00:44, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! Hope it sticks. --Pete Tillman (talk) 01:43, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Most of the plaques and other objects were '''stolen''' by British forces.... "  

message: — Assignment last updated by Cliffordhist (talk) 17:59, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Introduction to Digital Public History

message: As most the the plaques are not bronze, but brass, would it make more sense to name this page 'Benin Plaques'? Twigggie (talk) 10:42, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: We shouldn't invent our own names, and Benin Bronzes is very well established, as is loose use of bronze and brass, two terms without definitive definitions. Museums tend to catalogue both as "copper alloy" these days. Johnbod (talk) 12:32, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of title 'Benin Bronzes'