Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Archive 10

message: Hi,
My first article about LaRouche was for the Chicago Sun Times (1979), not High Times (1981).
--Cberlet 22:46, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  False information about Berlet corrected 

message: Chip Berlet is now editing this article and complaining about bias, which is ironic, considering that in his day job, he is one of the most prolific slanderers of Lyndon LaRouche (see Chip Berlet: Journalist and conspiracy researcher Mark Evans wrote, "Chip Berlet and his sidekick Dennis King, author of Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism, have made careers out of their postgraduate preoccupation of being 'LaRouche watchers.' To them, Lyndon LaRouche, recently released from prison, is the Great Beast. Berlet and King's own political trajectory, in shades of The Big Chill, [followed] a path parallel in its revisionism and no less bizarre than that of the despised object of their fixated animosity, LaRouche himself.".)
The number of public personalities who consider LaRouche to have been a political prisoner is pretty impressive. How curious it is, therefore, that Berlet, who proclaims himself to be a researcher and tracker of "government intelligence abuse," should turn out to be one of the most enthusiastic cheerleaders of the government frameup. Moreover, Berlet, who does a lot of finger pointing at other leftists whom he considers to be guilty of fraternizing with rightists (such as Ralph Nader, Alexander Cockburn, and Ramsey Clark), jumped lustily into bed with the John Birch Society and Richard Mellon Scaife in the course of pursuing his anti-LaRouche campaign. Some people might regard this as a particularly odoriferous kind of hypocrisy. --HK 21:33, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Chip Berlet

message: Given the unusually controversial nature of this article, I think that anonymous editors who intend major revisions should either get themselves a user name, or use the one that they already have. Regarding the most recent edits by one 205.188.117.11, it is unacceptable to insert that "Dennis King, however, cites statements from 'The Case of Walter Lippmann" and other LaRouche writings on the political state that King interprets as amounting to right-wing totalitarianism.". LaRouche has been mischaracterized so many times by King and Berlet, that only direct quotes should be used to back up claims by these putative sources.--HK 16:04, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent anonymous edits

message: :Regarding LaRouche's election to the IEA, here is what LaRouche had to say about it 1993 (he was still in prison at that time; a representative of the IEA came to the U.S. and visited LaRouche in jail to notify him of his elections.) These quotes come to you courtesy of the Nizcor project, and have not been redacted in any way:
"Q: You were just elected as an Academician to the International Ecological Academy in Moscow. What does this mean? Why are they electing you? How do they know you in Moscow?
MR. LAROUCHE: Well, they know a good deal about me. The election occurred in a meeting in Moscow of the Committee of 100 Academicians which founded the institution. There were reasons for that, but it was actually founded in the
Baltic countries about 7-odd years ago.
The award was made for, specifically, a book, the {Science of Christian Economy,} which was published a couple of years ago, which sums up a good deal of my work. But those Academicians who supported the award, referred also to another book, which is more available in a Russian translation from some years earlier. It's a college textbook, {So, You Wish To Learn All About Economics?}
It was given, not as an honorary award like a Nobel Prize, but they specified it was given as a working award, that is, the equivalent of a professorship. In the European system, this is about two steps above professor, with the idea that I would be working with the Academy as a scientist.
The award was given specifically for my original and important discoveries in the field of physical economy; and also for some of the beneficial impact of these discoveries in economics upon the field of physics.
The essential thing is in the discovery, which was originally made in 1952. So like many things of that sort, it goes way back in one's life. I was only about 30 years old when I did that, and most of my scientific work since then, has rested upon enhancing what I discovered when I was 30, and I'm now 71.
Essentially, what I did, is I reacted against the two central fallacies of the work of Norbert Wiener in information theory, and also against the work of the systems analysts, the operations research people as they were known then, and against the work of Professor John von Neumann in economics and in other
fields. So that was what prompted me.
First of all, a term, "negentropy," was used by Wiener to describe human communication, communication of human ideas, which is absolutely absurd.
Now the first business on which my discovery was based, is the fact that Wiener and Company use negentropy, that is, as they define it, from the statistical work of a fellow called Ludwig Boltzmann back at the turn of the century, who described this from the standpoint of gas theory. And they applied this also to describe living processes.
Now there are characteristic features of living processes, as distinct from non-living ones which absolutely cannot be described from this standpoint. That was absurdity number one.
Absurdity number two, is the fact that the human species, unlike any other species of animal, actually has the capability of {willfully changing for the better} its mode of existence, through such forms as what we call today technological progress.
On that basis, if man were an animal, he would have a baboon-like potential as a species for about not more than 10 million members of his species globally. But man today has over 5 billion people, at a much higher level than would be possible in a primitive man; and all of this has been done, through ideas, through particularly ideas which correspond or are equivalent to,
or analogous to, scientific and technological progress.
Thus, it is the communication of these revolutionary ideas of practice which distinguishes man and distinguishes human communication from anything which can be approximated by a gas theory, or a non-living process.
So those were the two points from which I started. And on this basis, through seeing the significance of the work of a fellow named Georg Cantor, one of the greatest mathematicians of the past 200 years or so, and the impact of Cantor's work on the work of another nineteenth-century scientific giant, Bernhard Riemann, I was able to develop a new conception of how economic
processes work, a conception which has been proven valid as against the Brand X theories which are abounding today.
In Russia and in Eastern Europe, this has a very specific significance.
Remember, in Russian society and Eastern European society, in addition to the military forces and to the other kinds of political forces and so forth, one of the most important parts of the society, is the scientific community. Russia functions only to the extent that its scientific community plays an integral part in shaping the ideas on which the society functions. And sooner or later, the society will tend to turn to its scientists for ideas on how to deal with the great crisis which has arisen, specifically, a crisis which shows that not only was communism a failure economically--at least in the civilian sector--but that the Western version of free trade, or the Adam Smith version,
never worked; and there's a recognition, of course, that there was a form of capitalism in the West which {did} work, typified by the ideas of Alexander Hamilton, the Treasury Secretary of the United States, or Abraham Lincoln, or in the German experience, Friedrich List, who was a follower of Hamilton; and in the Russian experience, Count Sergei Witte, who was largely a follower in economic theory of Germany's Friedrich List.
So what is emerging, is the idea of a Third Way in economic, which is related to the forms of capitalism associated with the young United States under the leadership of people like Hamilton and the Careys, and Abraham Lincoln, as an alternative to not only Bolshevism, but as an alternative to this crazy Adam Smith stuff, which poor Mrs. Margaret Thatcher--or Lady Thatcher, as they call her now--propounds. Shock therapy, what [Jeffrey] Sachs
propounds.
So the significance of this, is that my ideas, my work, represents the best articulation of what some would call the Third Way, something different than the kind of stuff which Harvard preaches today, and also something radically different than Bolshevism. And this is the alternative to the chaos which
the world sees.
There are other people who have similar ideas; but my ideas are the most articulate and the best scientifically grounded, as well as representing a contribution to scientific thought. So that was why the award was made.
The implication of the award, is that this establishes, within the European and other scientific communities, a recognition that my work in economics is the alternative to which the world is going to have to turn to get out of the mess caused by the twin collapse of both Bolshevism and of the free trade
model in the West."
:--HK 21:30, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: International Ecological Academy

message: I feel that we are going too far in the direction of seeking compromise with the LaRouche editors. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is clear on the point of minority views. Articles must be written without bias and should represent different views fairly. "Perhaps the easiest way to make your writing more encyclopedic, is to write about what people believe, rather than what is so," JImbo Wales wrote. Our articles about LaRouche should be representative of what people believe about LaRouche, including himself (though it should always be made clear when we are quoting him or referring to his claims, and that is not done in this article). The popular view should not be represented as though it is the only one, or the correct one. But note:
:"Now an important qualification. Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views. We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a majority view. That may be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. If we are to represent the dispute fairly, we should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties. None of this, however, is to say that minority views cannot receive as much attention as we can possibly give them on pages specifically devoted to those views. There is no size limit to Wikipedia. But even on such pages, though a view is spelled out possibly in great detail, we still make sure that the view is not represented as the truth."
This is not a page devoted to the views of Lyndon LaRouche. This is a page about the man, his life, the effects he has had on political movements, and on other people. Of course, his views can be included here, but they should not dominate, and at present, they seem to. One example: The article said (and may still say) that he "is credited" with the idea of the Star Wars program. No, he is not. He credits himself with it, and worse, he actually said in an interview that he "designed" it. This kind of comment shows a side to LaRouche that we are massively downplaying because of the presence of the LaRouche editors. I would like to see this page more fairly represent the views of the overwhelming majority of people who have studied the LaRouche movement, and not the views of the movement itself (though, of course, those views must be included). Does anyone agree with me? SlimVirgin 11:51, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)
:This is an issue we have tried to address over at Disinfopedia. So many of the claims by LaRouche and his followers turn out to be dubious at best, and a form of outrageous self-aggrandizing. I once interviewd the late Lieutenant General Daniel O. Graham (Ret.) about the LaRouche Star Wars claim and when he stopped laughing he was just angry. Actually, Phyllis Schlafly wrote a book calling for a Star Wars program prior to 1966:
::Phyllis Schlafly and Chester Ward, Strike from Space, revised and expanded, (Alton, IL: Pere Marquette Press, 1966).
:I think the process--intentional or not--has been for the pro-LaRouche editors to simply wear down more careful editors to the point where the "compromise" text actually is heavily biased toward LaRouche's unverified claims. 
:One related point. When I write for print encyclopedias, the standard practice is to ensure that the minority view is not the end of a section or article, since that gives more weight to that view in the eyes of the reader. For example, and article on the Holocaust should never end with a claim by a (minority view) Holocaust denier, but the majority view of what happened in the Holocaust.--Cberlet 14:54, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a chatroom, discussion forum, or vehicle for propaganda and advertising. Therefore, Wikipedia articles are not:
#Propaganda or advocacy of any kind. Of course, an article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to approach a neutral point of view. Go to Usenet or start a blog if you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views.
--HK 17:04, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: After the above comment, HK posted on the article page a claim by LaRouchite writer Paul Gallagher that a former head of German Military Intelligence, Gen. Paul-Albert Scherer had said in a speech (undocumented by a cite) that LaRouche developed SDI. Scherer is a long-time LaRouche apologist and supporter. LaRouchite Gallagher quoting LaRouche apologist Scherer quoting LaRouche praising himself is a circle. This is not serious research work, it is rapidly turning into an Orwellian farce where the idiosyncratic views of the LaRouchites are displacing published criticsm in reputable publications.  It is time to lock down this page and focus on editing the LaRouche pages one-by-one until this matter ends up back at the arbitration desk where it is clearly destined to arrive. --Cberlet 18:09, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: I posted it in response to SlimVirgin's request for documentation in the "biographical issues" section. What is "Orwellian" about this discussion is that as soon as Scherer utters something that offends Chip's POV, he ceases to be the former head of German Military Intelligence, and becomes merely a "long-time LaRouche apologist." If LaRouche's views are idiosyncratic, as they often are, it is appropriate to note that in the LaRouche articles. On the other hand, if Berlet's theories about LaRouche are idiosyncratic, and he inserts them into a Wikipedia article about LaRouche, he is violating the Wikipedia policy cited above. --HK 18:24, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The cite on Scherer is 100% LaRouche material.  It is not any sort of independent verification of facts. Find a source that is not 100% LaRouchite. Please post it here for discussion before you plonk it into the article.  Why don't we both (and Weed) agree to stop editing this article until the Political Views article is finished? --Cberlet 19:06, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this the same Paul Gallagher who is serving a 34-year term in jail?  If so, how did he make a speech? -Willmcw 21:18, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: All the LaRouche prisoners were paroled after Bill Clinton came in. --Caroline 21:24, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. We should include that information on the United States vs. LaRouche article. -Willmcw 21:52, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Don't get yourself all worked up, Slim. Weed and I have both added references to the contested "supporters believe" sectons, and I will continue do so. If you start deleting like mad, you will only made the work harder. What you have been doing, i.e. making the the contested sections invisible, is more helpful. --HK 02:35, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Consensus, compromise, and NPOV

message: *Berlet is once again using fallacy of composition to mislead. LaRouche did not promote "star wars." He promoted a specific policy of research and development of technologies based on what the ABM treaty calls "new physical principles": relativistic beam technologies, i.e. energy beams operating at or near the speed of light, lasers and particle beams. Danny Graham (why am I not surprised that Berlet would be palling around with him?) advocated what are called "kinetic energy" defenses, i.e., trying to hit a speeding missile with other missiles or various kinds of objects. This was an incompetent program that was put forward to compete with LaRouche's proposals, not the same program as that of LaRouche. I can't speak to the nature of Phyllis Schafly's proposals, but I know that politically, she was in the same right wing orbit, as it were, as Graham.
*Berlet's edits to the LaRouche articles are overwhelmingly devoted to promoting his own esoteric theories about LaRouche. They are not reflective of "mainstream" thinking, despite the fact that Berlet has managed to get some of his stuff published in locations other than the PRA site, which despite protestations to the contrary, is effectively a personal site for Berlet and a few of his buddies. The Wikipedia policy that is relevant to the introduction of Berlet's theories, is the following:
:Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a chatroom, discussion forum, or vehicle for propaganda and advertising. Therefore, Wikipedia articles are not:
#Propaganda or advocacy of any kind. Of course, an article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to approach a neutral point of view. Go to Usenet or start a blog if you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views.
--HK 17:04, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: After the above comment, HK posted on the article page a claim by LaRouchite writer Paul Gallagher that a former head of German Military Intelligence, Gen. Paul-Albert Scherer had said in a speech (undocumented by a cite) that LaRouche developed SDI. Scherer is a long-time LaRouche apologist and supporter. LaRouchite Gallagher quoting LaRouche apologist Scherer quoting LaRouche praising himself is a circle. This is not serious research work, it is rapidly turning into an Orwellian farce where the idiosyncratic views of the LaRouchites are displacing published criticsm in reputable publications.  It is time to lock down this page and focus on editing the LaRouche pages one-by-one until this matter ends up back at the arbitration desk where it is clearly destined to arrive. --Cberlet 18:09, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: I posted it in response to SlimVirgin's request for documentation in the "biographical issues" section. What is "Orwellian" about this discussion is that as soon as Scherer utters something that offends Chip's POV, he ceases to be the former head of German Military Intelligence, and becomes merely a "long-time LaRouche apologist." If LaRouche's views are idiosyncratic, as they often are, it is appropriate to note that in the LaRouche articles. On the other hand, if Berlet's theories about LaRouche are idiosyncratic, and he inserts them into a Wikipedia article about LaRouche, he is violating the Wikipedia policy cited above. --HK 18:24, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The cite on Scherer is 100% LaRouche material.  It is not any sort of independent verification of facts. Find a source that is not 100% LaRouchite. Please post it here for discussion before you plonk it into the article.  Why don't we both (and Weed) agree to stop editing this article until the Political Views article is finished? --Cberlet 19:06, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this the same Paul Gallagher who is serving a 34-year term in jail?  If so, how did he make a speech? -Willmcw 21:18, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: All the LaRouche prisoners were paroled after Bill Clinton came in. --Caroline 21:24, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. We should include that information on the United States vs. LaRouche article. -Willmcw 21:52, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Don't get yourself all worked up, Slim. Weed and I have both added references to the contested "supporters believe" sectons, and I will continue do so. If you start deleting like mad, you will only made the work harder. What you have been doing, i.e. making the the contested sections invisible, is more helpful. --HK 02:35, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Responses to Berlet

message: From Jimbo Wales, September 2003, on the mailing list:
* If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
* If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
* If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.
SlimVirgin 11:00, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
It would seem that most of CBerlet's contributions fall into the third category. --HK 21:06, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Frankly, Slim, your accusations are absurd and irresponsible. Your definition of a "reputable source" is simply one who condemns LaRouche. It's like writing an encyclopedia article about Nelson Mandela, using only white South African press accounts from the '70s and '80s. You say that "any reputable source that has written about LaRouche has condemned him"; yet, as is noted in the article, among those who called for his exoneration are hundreds of elected officials including foreign heads of state and former U.S. Congressmen (all of which have been now transformed by Berlet into "LaRouche apologists.) I only listed the most prominent in the article, omitting any that did not have a Wikipedia article (which means most of the heads of state). I have not, in order to avoid accusations of POVishness, listed any endorsers of LaRouche's presidential campaigns other than Brainin. Would you like to see some? --HK 21:58, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Herschel, you should be embarrassed to post that long quote from LaRouche, above,  if you're a supporter. I had already seen it, which is why I removed "formal position" from the page, because he's clearly bonkers. Tell me: what is "two levels or steps above professor in Europe"?  Just tell me that one thing, please, without obfuscation. SlimVirgin 21:50, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
Presumably, he means that the academic standards in the Russian scientific community are substantially higher than among the contemporary European Brotgelehrten. --HK 15:44, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: In the interview, LaRouche seems to say that he was granted a professorship rather than an honorary award. That being the case, what teaching has he done at the Academy? If he has never taught there then it would seem more like an honorary degree. Does the Academy have a website? I can't find any. (While I wonder about this, I agree with CBerlet's comment below - the Political Views article needs to be attended to first) -Willmcw 19:17, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Minority views and NPOV

message: Berlet and King represent a tiny clique that got some coverage back in the '80s, because they were acting as cat's paws for more powerful interests. Are the funding sources for PRA public? How would I get access to them? If Berlet wants to turn this article into an essay promoting his theories about LaRouche -- which violates Wikipedia policy -- I am entitled to ask who is paying for it. Weed Harper 21:40, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Berlet and King are a minority

message: ===democracy issue is disputed===
This text has been reinserted by a pro-LaRouche editor:
:"There is no published comment from LaRouche in which he calls for a totalitarian state, or for corporations to be placed under his control."
This is impossible to prove. This matter is disputed. An NPOV text would read:
:"Whether or not LaRouche has ever called for a political arrangement similar to fascism is disputed."
This is the oldest propaganda trick in the book, the have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife approach. I could just as easily say, "it is a matter of dispute whether Chip Berlet is a serial killer." You could say, "but there is no evidence to support that claim," and then I could say, "but it is still disputed." Propaganda!Weed Harper 21:30, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Biased editing by pro-LaRouche editors

message: This text has been reinserted by a pro-LaRouche editor:
:"There is no published comment from LaRouche in which he calls for a totalitarian state, or for corporations to be placed under his control."
This is impossible to prove. This matter is disputed. An NPOV text would read:
:"Whether or not LaRouche has ever called for a political arrangement similar to fascism is disputed."
This is the oldest propaganda trick in the book, the have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife approach. I could just as easily say, "it is a matter of dispute whether Chip Berlet is a serial killer." You could say, "but there is no evidence to support that claim," and then I could say, "but it is still disputed." Propaganda!Weed Harper 21:30, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: democracy issue is disputed