Talk:Eric Brown (pilot)

message: Amongst his portfolio is the Me-163, a rocket-powered aircraft. I understand that US servicepeople who travel into space are eligible for an astronaut's badge; is there some kind of international recognition for piloting a rocket (albeit in the atmosphere)? The act of flying on a rocket is still fairly exclusive, and it sounds like the kind of thing that would come to the attention of the international aviation community. I imagine that the RAF does not have a rocketeers' award, but I could be wrong. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 16:02, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Brown was lucky in that he was told that the use of the Komet engine's highly-dangerous rocket fuels was soon to be forbidden by the Allies as they were horrendously dangerous, so he started to look for Komets and was lucky enough to find some airworthy examples on an airfield in Germany with some friendly ex-Luftwaffe personnel who helped brief him on flying the machine and who handled the fuelling of the aircraft, just a few days before the use of the fuels was prohibited. When the fuels were banned the captured stocks were destroyed, so after that no-one could fly one powered even if they had wanted to. Komets were flown afterwards, but only as gliders, so Brown may well have been one of the last pilots to fly one 'properly'. Brown himself flew the RAE's own Komet, VF241 ,  several times afterwards  as a glider, usually being towed aloft by a Spitfire IX from either Wisley Airfield or RAF Wittering.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.252.207 (talk) 20:09, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: ''I'm flying high on a rocket to the sky''

message: What a poor choice of name.  8-( Andy Dingley (talk) 15:03, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, I moved it back, it made him sound like a captain of a boat.Rememberway (talk) 15:48, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In what way does "Royal Navy officer" make him sound like the captain of a boat? It makes him sound like an officer in the Royal Navy, which is exactly what he was and is the standard way to disambiguate Royal Navy officers! The same disambiguator would be used for medical officers, chaplains, engineers or supply officers, none of whom are captains of boats (or even ships) but all of whom are Royal Navy officers (see :Category:Royal Navy officers if you don't believe me). Or are you claiming that despite spending over thirty years in the Royal Navy and holding the rank of captain, he wasn't actually a Royal Navy officer? What a bizarre thing to say. -- Necrothesp (talk) 23:46, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I'm saying that it's not sufficient for the article title to be technically correct, plenty of things you can put in the name would be correct; but the purpose of the name is that it must optimally suggest what he most notably did for people looking for him in the Wikipedia. The major thing here isn't that he was a Royal Navy Officer, although he clearly was, it was that he flew aircraft as a test pilot, as that seems to be what he was most known for.Rememberway (talk) 00:08, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Tell, me, what Wikipedia naming policy are you following when you add the Royal Navy Officer to the article name?Rememberway (talk) 00:08, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Consistency, as per the other articles in the category. It's long been established that that's how we disambiguate British military officers. As a professional naval officer known as a military pilot, not someone who was known as a pilot in civilian life and just happened to briefly serve in the Royal Navy, that's the disambiguator we should use. You'll find the same logic used in the articles in :Category:Royal Air Force officers, the majority of whom were pilots and many of whom are primarily known for being pilots, but are still disambiguated as "(RAF officer)" unless they were better-known as civilian pilots. -- Necrothesp (talk) 01:28, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems to be incompatible with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people).Rememberway (talk) 02:18, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In what way? I see no incompatibility whatsoever. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:54, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: "The disambiguator is usually a noun indicating what the person is noted for being." I don't think he's most noted for being a naval officer, he's most noted for being a really excellent test pilot.Rememberway (talk) 16:21, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: While he was serving as a naval officer, which was his actual career. As a captain, he was hardly somebody who was a naval officer in his spare time! Had he concentrated on being a pilot and not an officer, he's unlikely to have got beyond lieutenant-commander at the highest, which is the usual maximum rank in the British forces for pilots who choose to concentrate on flying and not command. -- Necrothesp (talk) 22:47, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't believe that that's relevant. If you ask someone who Eric "winkle" Brown is, if they know who he is they'll very probably say he was a test pilot, not that he was a naval officer. In fact the Wikipedia seems to more or less systematically remove titles and ranks from nearly all biographical article names. The point of the article name is for people to find the correct article easily, not to force people to have to know his rank or which service he was in to find it.Rememberway (talk) 23:27, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

text: And that's nothing to do with him in particular, it's just the way it's done in the Wikipedia, it's the house style, with only very rare exceptions, where the rank has essentially become part of the name he is known by. But I don't see anything about this particular person that requires it to be one of those rare exceptions.Rememberway (talk) 23:27, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undiscussed rename 

message: The article doesn't say. Moriori (talk) 22:04, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: 1960. I've added it to the article. -- Necrothesp (talk) 22:55, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: When was he promoted to Captain?

message: Cyberbot II has detected links on Eric Brown (pilot) which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global
If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally.
When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags.
Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.
Below is a list of links that were found on the main page:
*https://youtu.be/2JKoLLgQ4wo
*:Triggered by \byoutu\.be\b.* on the global blacklist
*https://youtu.be/d9Hjne0OA4w
*:Triggered by \byoutu\.be\b.* on the global blacklist
If you would like me to provide more information on the talk page, contact User:Cyberpower678 and ask him to program me with more info.
From your friendly hard working bot.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 17:21, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on [[Eric Brown (pilot)]] 

message: Well done to everyone who's put so much into this article since Brown's death. The general trend of the edits has been one of great improvement. Now, I really can't be ****ed to go and fillet it out of the page history, but I especially wanted to thank whoever sorted out the mess about which most-decorated pilot, alive or dead, he was ... in the Navy or the FAA or both or whatever. That was a tricky little shambles until quite recently and was driving me nuts, and is now elegantly sorted. So thanks. With best wishes to all DBaK (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Well done 

message: A nitpick, I know, but I can't get the gist of this:
::It was here that Brown first met Ernst Udet, a former World War I fighter ace, who was fascinated to make the acquaintance of a former RFC pilot.
The RFC merged with the RNAS to become the RAF in 1919, the Year Eric Brown was born. So which RFC pilot is being discussed?
~~Andy~~  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Loates Jr (talk • contribs) 13:29, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point but without seeing the original source it all seems to back to front, it should be Brown who would have been fascinated with a former Luftwaffe pilot, Udet probably had no idea who Brown a 17-year old Schoolboy was in 1936. It is likely that the reference is to Udet meeting Brown senior. MilborneOne (talk) 14:33, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I had certainly read it that way. The previous sentence gives the context? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:55, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Brown's father was an ex-RFC pilot and it was he who was invited to attend the meeting at-which Udet was present. Eric was invited along too, being a young boy interested in aeroplanes, and flying.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.18.150 (talk) 10:31, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFC? 

message: In the Wartime Services section, it is stated ...
″Next operational once again, in 1943, he then went back to the RAE, this time to perform experimental flying″
However, this is the first mention of the RAE.  His time at the RAE is then expanded in subsequent paras.
A clarification on the correct sequence of Eric's employment with the RAE  - when/why/how he was initially posted there etc. - would improve this article. 
Once resolved, there will also need to be a correction to expand the first occurrence to Royal Aircraft Establishment in full.
MrEckLeckTick (talk) 14:31, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chronology of Eric's RAE Employment 

message: In this edit, the soured claim that "He was also the most-decorated pilot in the history of the Royal Navy" was removed with the edit summary: "It is incorrect to say that Eric Brown was the "most decorated pilot in the history of the Royal Navy". Robert A. Little (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Little) is the most decorated Royal Navy pilot in history. His multiple awards easily outdo ." I'm really not sure who ranks higher in terms of awards. Both had multiple awards. But the source used to support the claim, Kevin Ralwnson in The Guardian, looks like a reliable one? I can see no exactly similar claim at Robert A. Little, but there is a claim that he was the "most successful Australian flying ace" and "As well as the eighth most successful Commonwealth ace of World War I, and the ranking RNAS ace, this score made him the most prolific Australian ace of all time, ahead of Stan Dallas with an official score of thirty-nine..." (is there a word missing before "ranking" there?) Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:36, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that a journalist from the Guardian is reputable but in this case the title of "most decorated" just doesn't sit.  When using the term "decorated", it refers to the decorations awarded to the individual.  For this particular instance, the decorations awarded to Eric Brown, not to diminish his performances, are of a lesser weighting than Robert A. Little.  For this you need to understand medals and decorations and the order of precedence.  The decorations that Eric Brown received are 18 (DSC),21 (AFC) and 43 (Kin's commendation for valuable service in the air) in the order of precedent.  For those of Robert A. Little, his decorations are 10(DSO and bar for second award)), 18(DSC and bar for second award) and 41 (Mentioned in Dispatches), as well as the the French Croix de guerre.  Just by weighting of these awards, Eric Brown is not even close to Robert Little. Eric Brown is not the most decorated Royal Navy pilot.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.199.40.213 (talk) 14:24, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: So a DSC's worth 18 decoration points? Doesn't a bar also add something on? How much is a French Croix de Guerre worth? We don't want Wikipedia to turn into Mark Smith here, do we. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:56, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

text: A bar is equivalent to being awarded the medal a second time, so if the medal was worth 18pts, then the bar is worth another 18 pts. Mjroots (talk) 05:31, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

text: Ah right, I see. I've come up with some a "simplistic, ridiculous and ludicrous puerile points system." Perhaps we could book a future appointment for more of your expert advice.  Martinevans123 (talk) 06:30, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , can't say I've heard of this points system. Maybe we need input from the experts at MILHIST? Mjroots (talk) 06:42, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Nor me. Yes, that would be a good idea. Meanwhile, I'm not sure the deletion should be repeated, by an apparently WP:SPA, on the basis of what is apparently their own WP:OR. As the source is generally a reliable one, perhaps the text should be adjusted to say "Brown has been described as ... "Martinevans123 (talk) 07:02, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

text: *Fair comment. Many thanks for the clarity. I still think that in some way the article ought to be able to describe Brown as "highly decorated", as well as showing his tally of awards in the infobox. Would it be correct to say he was "the most-decorated British pilot in the history of the Royal Navy"? Martinevans123 (talk) 07:25, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: *I think you can say he was "decorated" in the first sentence (a CBE and a single DSC is hardly "highly decorated" IMHO, but you need a reliable source for the "the most-decorated British pilot in the history of the Royal Navy". Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 07:36, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: * Yes, I would agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:38, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: *How do we count foreign medals? Is a Purple Heart equivalent to a Victoria Cross, or is it worth more or less than a VC? Mjroots (talk) 07:58, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

text: * p.s. The New York Times describes him as "... the most decorated pilot in the history of the Fleet Air Arm, Britain’s naval aviation service." Martinevans123 (talk) 08:03, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: * As far as the Purple Heart is concerned, Mjroots, it is a medal for being wounded, the British system doesn't have an equivalent, it is far below a VC, the US equivalent of the VC is the Medal of Honor. The position of the Purple Heart in the US order of wear indicates its importance, my understanding is that it is worn after the Bronze Star, which is roughly equivalent to the British Military Cross when awarded for valour, a third-level gallantry award like the British DSC (not the US DSC, which is a second-level award). The other issue  with Brown is, surely there were other British Royal Navy pilots who have received at least one DSO for gallantry? A quick look at Category:Royal Naval Air Service aviators found Arthur Bigsworth who was British and DSO & Bar? Bigsworth is the sort of flier who might be a contender for "the most-decorated British pilot in the history of the Royal Navy", assuming there are no VCs? We need far better sources than some newspaper article by a non-expert, what you need is a book on the RNAS and Fleet Air Arm that says who "the most-decorated British pilot in the history of the Royal Navy" was. Given his awards and the examples of Little and Bigsworth, it is an WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim, IMHO, and extraordinary claims need extraordinary sources. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 08:17, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I quite agree with the need for better sources, such as a book on the RNAS and Fleet Air Arm. I opened the discussion here in the hope that it would be a useful alternative to tit-for-tat edit warring. I think it mostly has been very useful, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:48, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It is moot, as a bit of cross-checking found Richard Bell Davies and Reginald Warneford who both received the VC while flying with the RNAS in WWI. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 08:50, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I see. I guess this might all hinge on what is understood by the phrase "most decorated". There might be differing interpretations of what that means. I don't believe there is any agreed definition at Wikipedia. How about in any reliable external source(s)? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:12, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  maybe it would be useful to have a table of the various medals and their value so that they can be easily evaluated as to the weight they carry. This would also need to cover civilian and dual issue medals such as the George Medal/Cross, British Empire Medal, Order of Leopold etc. It could be housed in project space, such as WP:MILHIST/Medals. Any discussion re awarding a points value (or not) can take place at that page's talk page. Mjroots (talk) 09:50, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

text: Of course he's not the most decorated pilot in the history of the Royal Navy. Two third-level awards is not that much. And neither is Little. Three RN pilots won the Victoria Cross for starters: Richard Bell Davies (VC, CB, DSO, AFC), Eugene Esmonde (VC, DSO), Reginald Warneford. Given the VC outranks any other award, I would say that Bell Davies takes the prize! I have no idea where this "points system" comes from, incidentally. If someone has a VC, even with nothing else, that makes them more highly decorated than anyone who doesn't. It's not about quantity; it's about level. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:02, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I can assure you that any "points system" didn't come from me, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:07, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't suggesting it did. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:17, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, thanks. I wouldn't want to be accused of medaling with the article. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:20, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I note that the cited Guardian article actually says that Brown was the most decorated Fleet Air Arm pilot, not Royal Navy pilot as this article claimed. Little and Bell Davies were both WWI RNAS pilots, not FAA pilots. However, given Esmonde was an FAA pilot and I'm damn sure many other FAA pilots had DSOs with bars and also DSCs with bars, even this claim doesn't stand up to scrutiny. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:26, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the scrutiny. So it seems the IP has done us all a big favour. Perhaps we'll eventually get a List of FAA pilots in order of decorations, etc? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:33, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Incidentally, Brown's MBE and OBE might count towards decorations in this sense, as both were probably awarded for bravery (the London Gazette is often not entirely clear as to which were formally awarded for bravery and which for service, but the citations suggest the former), but as third-level awards they still don't trump VCs and DSOs. His CBE was definitely awarded for service, so doesn't really count in the "most decorated" stakes (which usually only refers to awards for bravery, although also usually including all DSOs, including those awarded for leadership). -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:39, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well yes, maybe. One gets a medal. But, as I hinted above, I've yet to see a reliably-sourced and fully-agreed definition of what "most decorated" actually means. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:08, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: All MBEs etc now are for service. But until replaced with the Queen's Gallantry Medal in 1974, they were also used as the third-level award for non-combat gallantry (after the GC and GM). So Brown effectively had four third-level gallantry decorations. Highly-decorated, yes, but still beaten by a DSO and certainly by a VC. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:39, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Brown's 1946 OBE was "For courage, exceptional skill and devotion to duty" specifically related to the Mosquito and Vampire deck landings.   Alansplodge (talk) 13:59, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure if this helps, but www.royalnavy.mod.uk says: "Medals awarded to the Royal Navy's most decorated pilot, Captain Eric Brown are to be displayed at the Fleet Air Arm Museum", although a quote in the same article by a spokesman for the museum only says that he "was by many measures the Fleet Air Arm's most significant pilot of the post-war period". Alansplodge (talk) 14:08, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Brown may be the FAAs "most decorated" on a simple count. Mjroots (talk) 14:48, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Most decorated" 

message: I have just changed a reference from a now-defunct web page, to page-98 of Wings on my Sleeve.  I suspect the other reference was cribbed from Wings on my Sleeve.  Brown was shocked by the conditions at Belsen.  Given his relationship with Germans, particularly some Nazis, it clearly disturbed him.  Brown interviewed Kramer and Griese (Brown's spelling) at the request of medical Brigadier Glyn Hughes.  He does not describe the contents of the interview.  He may have asked "Where is the food and medical supplies?" for all we know.  His assessment of them as "loathsome creatures" may be based on the interviews, or it may be based on the conditions of the camp they ran. JHowardGibson (talk) 15:41, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I created much of the original text of the article back in around 2010-2013 and indeed used "Wings On My Sleeve" as a reference, although I thought I had cited it properly at the time.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.144.50.152 (talk) 10:01, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Josef Kramer]] and [[Irma Grese]]

message: The top of this page says that Brown made the first landing, but there are sources on the page for the Potez 56 that state that aircraft made the first landing, many years before. Needs clarifying? TheHamSack (talk) 17:08, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "First Carrier Landing of Twin-Engined Aircraft"