Talk:George Szell

message: Saying what he died *of* would be informative and complete.
Um, George Szell died in 1970. How did he manage to serve as Musical Director until 1971? Furthermore, did he manage two jobs at once? Szell served at Cleveland until the day he died. I'm commenting out this box until someone can clarify. Spamguy 22:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, the 1971 was a typo for 1970.  He served as "musical advisor" with the NY Phil during the Bernstein-Boulez interregnum.  Here's the info on the NY Phil's website.  I'll put the succession box back with correct info. 69.12.144.158 21:29, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Szell and NY Phil

message: Here are some quotes I compiled from Charry's bio of Szell (including page numbers), along with a transcription of part of Szell's 1968 interview with Culshaw.  If I can find the time, I will try to incorporate them into the article, but others are welcome to do so as well.
*Neville Cardus:  He is of the old school of conductors who “make music”.  He does not “put it over.”  His gestures on the rostrum are intense and mobile, yet musically concentrated, without obvious audience appeal.  P. 246  Eroica: Not since Toscanini have I heard this greatest of all symphonies explored and unfolded with so much power of dramatic illumination, with so firm and comprehensive a vision. P. 246
*Desmond Shawe-Taylor:  Mr. Szell adds a ripe and secure classical musicianship of precisely the type that we miss in the work of his leading rivals at Boston, New York and Philadelphia.  P. 247
*Paul Hume: The solidity with which George Szell has built [the] orchestra on those sound ingredients which are possessed only by the world’s greatest orchestras, a musicality throughout the ensemble which communicates itself in the most disciplined response, a virile and lustrous quality of sound in every department, and the embodiment of classic orchestral technique and proportion….Szell’s authority, experience and taste are rivaled by precious few conductors today. P. 194
*Leningrad Pravda on C.O. tour performance in 1965: The orchestra plays with freedom and suppleness, as if in one breath.  The rendition of each work is distinguished by coherence and warmth.  The orchestra’s technique is irreproachable, but, most important, it is never flaunted  for its own sake.  Everything is subordinated to the artistic concept which is always profound and reasoned.  This is the achievement of George Szell, the musical director and first conductor of the orchestra and an outstanding musician educated in the best traditions of European musical culture.  P 229
*Andrew Porter, the New Yorker: A Szell performance makes a Karajan one seem vulgar; the classical finesse of his orchestra can make the Berlin Philharmonic, straining at the climax of some Strauss tone-poem with supercharged strings and bursting brass, seem brash.  P. 232
*Donald White:  George Szell hired the orchestra’s first African-American player, cellist Donald White, in 1957 over the objections of several orchestra members.  White noted: “Szell had a reputation for being a martinet - brutal and ruthless, which he was. But on things political, he was a liberal.  When I first got to the orchestra - when I’d go out to warm up, he be out checking bowings or something, and he would just put his hand on my shoulder.  He wouldn’t say anything, but it was a gesture of support that meant more to me than words.”   While on tour with the orchestra in Birmingham, Alabama in 1961, White was refused admittance to the concert hall because of that city’s segregationist policies.  Szell and the orchestra’s manager, Barksdale sternly informed the mayor of Birmingham that unless White was allowed to perform in stage, the concert would be cancelled.  The mayor relented and the concert proceeded.  p. 173-174 
*Szell-Culshaw 1968: When Rodzinski took over the New York Philharmonic in 1943, he sacked 30 members.  I didn’t sack that many.  The Cleveland Orchestra was financially always very well endowed.  So I could proceed with due regard to certain human considerations and could do it in a milder way.  But there were of course moments of heartbreak and moments of unpleasantness.  But then of course you arrive very soon at the point and this point is now very much at discussion: What is the purpose of a symphony orchestra for which so many people give without compensation their time - I am now talking about the board - and collect money - that’s the way American orchestras are being run as you know there’s no state or public money, just private money.  What is the purpose?  Is it the purpose of a symphony orchestra to make it possible to have the best of music?  Or is the purpose of such an orchestra to give their members the easiest and unchallengeably permanent job? 
THD3 (talk) 18:39, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Quotes by and about Szell

message: My impression is that this article contains much good information, but mainly reflects the Szell fans' point of view. To that extent, I think it is somewhat at odds with Wikipedia's goals. I certainly don't object to the positive evaluation of Szell--he was anything but mediocre, there's little sense in writing articles if everyone is supposedly just 50/50, and ritually adding negative material in the name of "balance" is a degrading ploy. I truly have nothing bad to say about Szell. But the article almost gives the impression that he was a god--as if his work was based on a knowledge and talent that were absolute, and his authoritarianism merely reflected the fact of always being right about everything.
It seems almost as if he stood outside of human history, while we mortals saw and heard only an earthly manifestation. This is gross objectification not only of a person, but also of musical performance. Conducting an orchestra is something that human beings do. Legends are made about such people, but it is always just people who those legends are about.
It is like confusing an actor with a role that he is playing; just because you never happen to see him when he is "out of character" (or perhaps you don't want to), does that make him not an actor? If an actor's method is based on putting out of his mind all awareness that he is acting, then to describe that process objectively, we would have to say that that is something which the actor is doing as a part of his acting. To say instead, as some people would, that he "becomes his character" might describe the effect on the audience--but it avoids describing what the actor is doing, and instead creates the impression that magic is occurring.
The fact that so many people evidently want to perceive art as magic is a serious problem. I would like the article to be a little less awe-struck and a little more objective and realistic (or "encyclopedic" as they say around here). DSatz 13:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  General tone of this article 

message: I adore Szell as much as the next guy, but this article, while informative, is completely unsourced and reads like a fanzine.  It's really not consistent with an encyclopedia.  I'm planning on doing a pretty thorough overhaul as soon as I can gather some good references.  Hope I don't upset anyone in the process.  I don't think Szell's legacy needs the sort of boosterism it gets here.--Turangalila (talk) 15:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was having the exact same idea, and the exact same intentions. I'm going to start sourcing it this week HornandsoccerTalk 18:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time for an overhaul? (re:tone) 

message: I've gone ahead and edited the page now in an effort to make it clearer.  I hope by putting the usual name at the beginning of the article (to match the title), but noting that György or Georg came first; then adding a footnote on the situation, I've satisfied a consensus.  I also deleted the "Birth name" line from the Infobox as the birth name isn't clear; besides all 3 names are there in bold 3 inches to the left so why confuse matters?  I made this a separate edit so I could link here to the "DIFF" PAGE.  
See below for talk on other changes.  --Turangalila (talk) 08:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Attempted resolution (re name)

message: I have rated this article as a Start class article for Wikipedia:Wikiproject Biography due to the lack of cites and the overtly praising nature of the prose. This article really just have potential, though. Keep working at it, this could probably be a Good Article candidate fairly quickly. HornandsoccerTalk 01:24, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rating 

message: OK, I've made a start on trying to get this article up to encyclopedic standards.  Much yet needs to be done, but I thought I'd summarize what I've done so far here to get the discussion started...
* I added sections for notes & citations -- I opted for a hybrid style that combines: (1) footnotes entered w/ "<ref>" tags (& displayed under "Notes"), which contain brief "Harvard-style" cites; with (2) complete citations listed separately under "References".  It's a bit more work to add a new ref, but it does allow you to include explanations & other longish digressions in the footnote, for example wrt the name issue. Also you can cite multiple sources from one spot in the text w/o cluttering up the page w/ multiple consecutive footnote links.  See also WP:CITE and WP:FOOT
* Revised NAME; see above
* I deleted some portions of text.  Most of it was fairly obvious POV, or just plain wrong ("provincial orchestra")...however some of it was interesting stuff, just not source-able from my research;  so here's a DIFF PAGE of results from a first pass.  Feel free to resurrect material you can source.
* I couldn't find any evidence that Richard Robert was buddies w/ Brahms.  I'm pretty sure whoever wrote that had him confused w/ Mandyczewski; I changed the text accordingly.
* I haven't even touched the "Cleveland 1946-1970" and "Conducting Style" sections yet, both of which still need lots o' work.  Also the Lead could probably use a bit more info about Szell's musical & social personality.
Please jump in & help out!
--Turangalila (talk) 11:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overhauling... 

message: Seems whenever they get the chance people label Americans who happen to be of Jewish heritage as "Jewish-American."  Szell was not "Jewish-American" but simply American.  There is nothing in his biography to suggest that he identified himself as a hyphenated American.  In fact, according to the Categories list at the bottom of the article, Szell converted to Roman Catholicism, which makes the Jewish-American tag even more idiotic. I suggest that whenever anyone happens across a Jewish-American label, that they edit out this idiotic tag. J M Rice (talk) 00:34, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Charry's bio, it's not so much that Szell converted from Judaism to Roman Catholicism, his whole family did when Szell was three years old!  From what I can discern in available sources, he doesn't seem to have been particularly observant.  In any case, according to WP:MOS, there's no need to put the subject's religion in the lead unless it's specially significant to their life story.  Neither Judaism or Christianity was in this case.THD3 (talk) 14:46, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It isn't idiotic, but wrong. Szell wasn't baptized when he was three years old, but in 1904, when he was already seven. He also didn't convert together with his family. His father Georg Szél was baptized one year earlier, at the age of 47. Szell was a devout Catholic. His first marriage was Catholic as well. This marriage also didn't "end in divorce", as is falsely stated in the article. Szell had it annulled by the Catholic authorities, because avoiding a divorce was very important to him. "Jewish" is an ethnic category, but only in the eyes of ultra-orthodox Rabbis and Nazis. You can actually leave Judaism, because there are no "Jewish genes" or a "Jewish race". The concept that "you cannot leave Judaism" is basically racist. Unlike Szell, Freud, Einstein, and Marx weren't baptized Christians.--Suessmayr (talk) 14:23, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Idiotic Jewish labels 

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thread_title:  External links modified