Talk:Kurgan

message: The burial mound practice was also very well known in North America, around the mid-west, esp. Ohio Valley starting around 3,000 years BP or more.
The famous mound builder culture, who they were, remains a great mystery.
We know that the later mound builders were certainly Native American, but the earliest builders of the "conical mounds" have not been satisfactorily identified. One of the most intriguing clues we have about the early mound builders was the gigantic proportions of their physicality often reported by early settlers and even the Smithsonian in several instances. These skeletons were in some cases between 7 and 8 feet of length, i.e. 12th Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution 1890-1891 (published in 1894)(Kanawha County, West Virginia).
For more information about the mysterious mound builders in north America, visit: moundbuilders.org
----
I have the intention (I don't have the time right now, but say in a couple of days) to separate the Kurgan and Burial mound articles. Sure, Kurgan means burial mound, in Russian. In english, however, burial mound is the generic term, applicable to such mounds of any period, in any location, while Kurgan is restricted to Black Sea/Steppe barrows, and it only ever entered the english language because of the theories of Gimbutas'. The Kurgan article should therefore concentrate on the Kurgan hypothesis, while the burial mound article should compare the different kinds of barrows all over the world. dab 12:10, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Old talk

message: Wiglaf, you do realize that the "swept away" you removed was there to represent Gimbutas' increasingly extreme views, and was not the "article talking"? dab 13:19, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Gimbutas overdid it

message: dumped in the article without explanation (other than 'however') how this ties in with the other statements (elaborate, please!):
:"The third section of the book surveys the anthropological literature concerning the Sredny Stog and Novodanylovka cultures. For the twenty Sredny Stog burials from Igren, we find the somewhat unusual situation of women outliving males on an average of 7.8 years (males - 35.8 years, females - 43.6); only one individual lived passed 55 years. In terms of the craniological analysis of physical characteristics the Sredny Stog females tend to exhibit a homogeneous Proto-Europoid type that is most similar to the earlier inhabitants of the region. The series of male crania, however, tend to vary more and indicate both more robust Proto-Europoid and more gracile southern European (or Mediterranean) components. The analysis of six Novodanilovka skulls from three sites suggests again the presence of both Proto-Europoid and Mediterranean types. The cranial evidence as a whole suggests a mingling of local Proto-Europoids (seen especially in the east) with more gracial south-east European types in the west, a pattern that might be explained by the flow of populations from the Balkan Neolithic (Tripolje) into the western Ukraine."
:Although the origin of the  "Mediterranean components" mentioned in this review should be considered with caution.
dab (ᛏ) 15:20, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mallory's review of Telegin

message: mtDNA of Scytho-Siberian skeleton Human Biology 76.1 (2004) 109-125
Genetic Analysis of a Scytho-Siberian Skeleton and Its Implications for Ancient Central Asian Migrations
François-X. Ricaut et al.
Abstract The excavation of a frozen grave on the Kizil site (dated to be 2500 years old) in the Altai Republic (Central Asia) revealed a skeleton belonging to the Scytho-Siberian population. DNA was extracted from a bone sample and analyzed by autosomal STRs (short tandem repeats) and by sequencing the hypervariable region I (HV1) of the mitochondrial DNA. The resulting STR profile, mitochondrial haplotype, and haplogroup were compared with data from modern Eurasian and northern native American populations and were found only in European populations historically influenced by ancient nomadic tribes of Central Asia.
...
The mutations at nucleotide position 16147 C→A, 16172 T→C, 16223 C→T, 16248 C→T, and 16355 C→T correspond to substitutions characteristic of the Eurasian haplogroup N1a (Richards et al. 2000). The haplotype comparison with the mtDNA sequences of 8534 individuals showed that this sequence was not found in any other population.
...
The N1a haplogroup was not observed among the native American, east Asian, Siberian, Central Asian, and western European populations. The geographic distribution of haplogroup N1a is restricted to regions neighboring the Eurasian steppe zone. Its frequency is very low, less than 1.5% (Table 6), in the populations located in the western and southwestern areas of the Eurasian steppe. Haplogroup N1a is, however, more frequent in the populations of the southeastern region of the Eurasian steppe, as in Iran (but only 12 individuals were studied) and southeastern India (Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh territories). More precisely, in India haplogroup N1a is absent from the Dravidic-speaking population and is present in only five Indo-Aryan-speaking individuals, four of whom belonged to the Havik group, an upper Brahman caste (Mountain et al. 1995).
...
The absence of the Eurasian haplogroup N1a in the 490 modern individuals of Central Asia (Shields et al. 1993; Kolman et al. 1996; Comas et al. 1998; Derenko et al. 2000; Yao et al. 2000; Yao, Nie et al. 2002) suggests changes in the genetic structure of Central Asian populations, probably as a result of Asian population movements to the west during the past 2500 years.
AAPA 2004
East of Eden, west of Cathay: An investigation of Bronze Age interactions along the Great Silk Road.
B.E. Hemphill.
The Great Silk Road has long been known as a conduit for contacts between East and West. Until recently, these interactions were believed to date no earlier than the second century B.C. However, recent discoveries in the Tarim Basin of Xinjiang (western China) suggest that initial contact may have occurred during the first half of the second millennium B.C. The site of Yanbulaq has been offered as empirical evidence for direct physical contact between Eastern and Western populations, due to architectural, agricultural, and metallurgical practices like those from the West, ceramic vessels like those from the East, and human remains identified as encompassing both Europoid and Mongoloid physical types.
Eight cranial measurements from 30 Aeneolithic, Bronze Age, Iron Age and modern samples, encompassing 1505 adults from the Russian steppe, China, Central Asia, Iran, Tibet, Nepal and the Indus Valley were compared to test whether those inhabitants of Yanbulaq identified as Europoid and Mongoloid exhibit closest phenetic affinities to Russian steppe and Chinese samples, respectively. Differences between samples were compared with Mahalanobis generalized distance (d2), and patterns of phenetic affinity were assessed with cluster analysis, multidimensional scaling, and principal coordinates analysis.
Results indicate that, despite identification as Europoid and Mongoloid, inhabitants of Yanbulaq exhibit closest affinities to one another. No one recovered from Yanbulaq exhibits affinity to Russian steppe samples. Rather, the people of Yanbulaq possess closest affinities to other Bronze Age Tarim Basin dwellers, intermediate affinities to residents of the Indus Valley, and only distant affinities to Chinese and Tibetan samples
:Everyone knows that, by 2500 years ago, Altaic-speaking peoples were well on their way to displacing Indo-European speakers (mainly North Iranian, e.g. Scythian) in Central Asia. Zyxwv99 (talk) 15:24, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Judging dead people by appearance is not always accurate

message: User Dbachmann twice reverted my edits regarding Kurgan as a placename in Russia. In the disamb line above the lead, I edited: "This article is about Bronze Age burial mounds and the Kurgan culture. See Kurgan Oblast for the Russian district of that name" to "... See Kurgan, Kurgan_Oblast for the Russian city of that name". People who are interested in the oblast will type in "Kurgan Oblast", which leads to this page. One can only get to the page in question when looking for the city/town of Kurgan (oh, and, BTW, an oblast is not a district, it's a province and is subdivided into several districts of its own).
Towards the end of the first subsection I edited "Several towns in Russia are called Kurgan, as well as one oblast <...>, named after its capital" to "Several places in Russia are called Kurgan, including one town, seat of its own oblast" (emphasis mine). First of all, of the 1092 towns and cities in Russia (not thousands, as user Dbachmann claims on my talk page - see the discussion) only one is called Kurgan. Second, the oblast is not called Kurgan at all, it's called Kurgan Oblast (Kurganskaya oblast). Let's reach a consensus on the talk page before you start an edit war, shall we? --apoivre 19:25, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: More than two of what? Care to elaborate? --apoivre 02:02, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Kurgan as a place name

message: I've edited this for links. As you will see, the number of red links is fewer. These remain: 
*Novotitarovskaya nomads: will become Novotitorovka culture, eastern shore of Azov, north of Kuban 3300-2700 BC.
*Sarama culture -- Samara culture? When I get to it, 5th mill. BC, at Samara bend, related to Dnieper-Donets culture, cemetery at Sezzheye?
**Almost definitely, especially if the article is based on some Gimbutas' work. mikka (t) 02:51, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: -FourthAve 22:20, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Links

message: I made an attempt to organize a gallery to show more pictures, especially most famous pictures. There are some more especially prominent kurgans that deserve to be included in the "Kurgans" article. I would appreciate critique and suggestions. Barefact 00:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gallery 

message: My understanding is that cannabis seeds have been found in some tombs, while Polosmak's  "Ice Maiden" only contained coriander seeds, first thought to have been cannabis seeds like the ones found in other tombs.  Can anyone confirm which finds verified cannabis seeds?  Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 02:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I saw a documentary that dealt partially with these discoveries; can't remember what it was even called.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.90.55.168 (talk) 12:02, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cannabis seeds 

message: The word is ultimately of Turkic origin, more specifically from Tatar according to the Oxford English Dictionary, from a word meaning "fortress".[1][2]
references link dont work
Oxford English Dictionary, Origin: Russian, of Turkic origin; compare with Turkish kurgan 'castle' 
not tatar
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/kurgan?q=kurgan  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.31.51.14 (talk) 00:03, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  References ? 

message: Is a kurgan just a tumulus/barrow in Eastern Europe/Central Asia, or is there more to it than that?  E.g. if an archaeologist was shown a burial mound and its contents, but not told where it was, would they be able to say whether it was a kurgan or not?  Or is it a purely geographical label with no other significance? Iapetus (talk) 16:27, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kurgan vs Tumulus/Barrow 

message: So, where's the discussion? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:08, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, though I guess that I could write a summary, we need the parties in the dispute to write theirs. Before we have any more edit-warring, please. Richard Keatinge (talk) 08:54, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: So, this edit the dispute, right? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:11, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think so. Richard Keatinge (talk) 15:59, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

text: "Opposed", or "concurring"? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:46, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, "Opposed". --Ragdeenorc (talk) 12:02, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

text: The etymology-section seems acceptable to me, actually. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 10:02, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

text: Google gives only 44 hits for Palaeolithic Continuity Theory. Might be an indication of its relevance, I'm afraid... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:37, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: As Johnbod has argued further down, let's stick with the mainstream for now. I will merely restore the etymology section if you agree. --Ragdeenorc (talk) 20:46, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine with me. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:35, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: With or without the Proto-Altaic derivation? --Ragdeenorc (talk) 10:05, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know anymore... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:18, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: ok, let's remain without Altaic, since mr. Blaschke has some phobic reactions on it :) --Ragdeenorc (talk) 08:20, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

text: This sentence is unclear. It seems to suggest that the word "Kurgan" was borrowed early on by IE's, and spread with the diffusion of the Yamnaya and Kurgan cultures. When was the word "Kurgan" borrowed: prior to the Indo-European migrations? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:08, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Should it be "Mario Alinei states that the spread of the word kurgan could be"? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 09:51, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this phrasing sounds more plausible. About the timing of the presumed borrowing into Indo-European it should be said that, according to this paper, IE speakers (R1a) arrived in the Balkans and further in Europe between the 8th - 6th millennia bc. So it was possibly after the IE migrations, even though, mainstreamers seem still uninformed by this claim from a genetic point of view. --Ragdeenorc (talk) 12:02, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the link to the paper. I've been going through it "diagonally"; unfortunately, I'm almost completely lacking in kinowledge on this topic, so I can't judge its value. Nevertheless, I find it interesting. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:32, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proto-Altaic 

message: Here's the disputed etymology-section, with a few breaks:
Etymology
	
The word kurgan (‘funerary mound’) is used in Central Asia and Anatolia as well as in Russia and Ukraine, but throughout South-Eastern Europe 
(Ru. kurgán, ORu. kurganu, Ukr. kurhán, BRu. kurhan, Pol. kurhan, kurchan, kuran ‘mound’; Rum. gurgan, dial. Hung. korhány), 
borrowed from Tat., Osm., Kum. kurgan, from Old Turkic kurgan "fortification", cf. Kirg. and Jagat. korgan, Karakirg. korgon, all from Turkotat. kurgamak "to fortify", kurmak "to erect"."kurgan." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (14 October 2006). 
The Old Turk. word stem qur-, of which kurgan is a derivation,Proto-Turkic “*Kur-” in Sergei Starostin, Vladimir Dybo, Oleg Mudrak (2003), Etymological Dictionary of the Altaic Languages, Leiden: Brill Academic Publishers. Citation:
*“EWT 302, EDT 643, ЭСТЯ 6, 156-157. There is also a derivative *Kur-gan (see e.g. TMN 3, 542-543), which is sometimes hard to distinguish from *Kōrɨ-kan (see *Kōrɨ-).” comes from Proto-Turkic *Kur- ("to erect (a building), to establish"), possibly from Proto-Altaic *kuri ("wattle, fence, enclosure, building"), cf. Middle Jap. kuru-wa ("fortress embankment; quarter"), Tung. *kori ("frame, blockhouse; cage; shed") and Mong. *kürijen ("enclosure").Proto-Altaic “*kuri” in Sergei Starostin, Vladimir Dybo, Oleg Mudrak (2003), Etymological Dictionary of the Altaic Languages, Leiden: Brill Academic Publishers
References
Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:46, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The etymology-section seems acceptable to me, actually. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 10:02, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymology

message: And here are some of Mario Alinei's insights:
====Opposing views====
Marija Gimbutas' Kurgan hypothesis is opposed by Paleolithic Continuity Theory (limited only to a small circle of scholars), which associates Pit Grave and Sredny Stog Kurgan cultures with Turkic peoples,Mario Alinei, Quaderni di semantica, vol. 26, "Interdisciplinary and linguistic evidence for Paleolithic continuity of Indo-European, Uralic and Altaic populations in Eurasia, with an excursus on Slavic ethnogenesis", 2003. and the Anatolian hypothesis, and is also opposed by the Black Sea deluge theory.
References
Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:46, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Google gives only 44 hits for Palaeolithic Continuity Theory. Might be an indication of its relevance, I'm afraid... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:37, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: As Johnbod has argued further down, let's stick with the mainstream for now. I will merely restore the etymology section if you agree. --Ragdeenorc (talk) 20:46, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine with me. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:35, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: With or without the Proto-Altaic derivation? --Ragdeenorc (talk) 10:05, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know anymore... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:18, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: ok, let's remain without Altaic, since mr. Blaschke has some phobic reactions on it :) --Ragdeenorc (talk) 08:20, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

text: This sentence is unclear. It seems to suggest that the word "Kurgan" was borrowed early on by IE's, and spread with the diffusion of the Yamnaya and Kurgan cultures. When was the word "Kurgan" borrowed: prior to the Indo-European migrations? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:08, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Should it be "Mario Alinei states that the spread of the word kurgan could be"? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 09:51, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this phrasing sounds more plausible. About the timing of the presumed borrowing into Indo-European it should be said that, according to this paper, IE speakers (R1a) arrived in the Balkans and further in Europe between the 8th - 6th millennia bc. So it was possibly after the IE migrations, even though, mainstreamers seem still uninformed by this claim from a genetic point of view. --Ragdeenorc (talk) 12:02, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the link to the paper. I've been going through it "diagonally"; unfortunately, I'm almost completely lacking in kinowledge on this topic, so I can't judge its value. Nevertheless, I find it interesting. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:32, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Mario Alinei

message: Marija Gimbutas' Kurgan hypothesis is opposed by Paleolithic Continuity Theory (limited only to a small circle of scholars), which associates Pit Grave and Sredny Stog Kurgan cultures with Turkic peoples,Mario Alinei, Quaderni di semantica, vol. 26, "Interdisciplinary and linguistic evidence for Paleolithic continuity of Indo-European, Uralic and Altaic populations in Eurasia, with an excursus on Slavic ethnogenesis", 2003. and the Anatolian hypothesis, and is also opposed by the Black Sea deluge theory.
References
Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:46, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Google gives only 44 hits for Palaeolithic Continuity Theory. Might be an indication of its relevance, I'm afraid... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:37, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: As Johnbod has argued further down, let's stick with the mainstream for now. I will merely restore the etymology section if you agree. --Ragdeenorc (talk) 20:46, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine with me. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:35, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: With or without the Proto-Altaic derivation? --Ragdeenorc (talk) 10:05, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know anymore... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:18, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: ok, let's remain without Altaic, since mr. Blaschke has some phobic reactions on it :) --Ragdeenorc (talk) 08:20, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Opposing views

message: Mario Alinei states that the word kurgan could be attributed to the spread of the Yamnaya and Kurgan cultures (Alinei 2000, 2003), suggesting that this Turkic word was borrowed into Slavic and other Indo-European languages with a wide diffusion area in Southern Europe.Mario Alinei (2003), "Interdisciplinary and linguistic evidence for Paleolithic continuity of Indo-European, Uralic and Altaic populations in Eurasia, with an excursus on Slavic ethnogenesis", Quaderni di semantica, vol. 26.
References
Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:03, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: This sentence is unclear. It seems to suggest that the word "Kurgan" was borrowed early on by IE's, and spread with the diffusion of the Yamnaya and Kurgan cultures. When was the word "Kurgan" borrowed: prior to the Indo-European migrations? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:08, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Should it be "Mario Alinei states that the spread of the word kurgan could be"? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 09:51, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this phrasing sounds more plausible. About the timing of the presumed borrowing into Indo-European it should be said that, according to this paper, IE speakers (R1a) arrived in the Balkans and further in Europe between the 8th - 6th millennia bc. So it was possibly after the IE migrations, even though, mainstreamers seem still uninformed by this claim from a genetic point of view. --Ragdeenorc (talk) 12:02, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the link to the paper. I've been going through it "diagonally"; unfortunately, I'm almost completely lacking in kinowledge on this topic, so I can't judge its value. Nevertheless, I find it interesting. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:32, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Spread of the word "Kurgan"

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