Talk:Stéphane Grappelli

message: I interviewed Stephane in 1978, and at that time he confirmed to me he had spent those war years in the care of Isadora Duncan's famous dance school for children.  Hardly an 'orphanage'.  I don't know why I asked him about Isadora, it was just the first thing that popped into my mind after waiting my turn to speak with him and hearing his emphatic voice through the hotel door telling someone "I don't want to answer any f**king questions about Django!" -- we jazz media people in the halls all shuffled our feet and quickly rethought our strategies, and for me it was Isadora, his then-new Columbia Masterworks release, and his 70th birthday celebrated by circumnavigating the globe three times. That was also, he said, the year he quit smoking. -- garym
ILike2BeAnonymous: :P Dndn1011 21:43, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphanage 

message: Made me think that Grappelli played cello, which is not true (his instrument was violin)- User:86.57.253.57
*?(Mind meal 11:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Silly man, that's a double bass. But I agree, a picture of Grapelli on his own with a violin would be far more appropriate. --Rover Segundo 13:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  inappropriate photo, IMO 

message: This article was automatically  assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 08:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: I think there should be more about his influence on violinists and his astounding command of the intrument, both technical and emotion.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.167.138.107 (talk) 21:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influence 

message: At the bottom of the Discography section is the following bizarre note, added by 151.202.63.188 on October 20, 2008, and later corrected by other editors for spelling, etc:There is no citation for this information and no indication of what "Archive" is referred to or why this information should be noted. I am going to delete it. If anyone objects, please clarify the note - particularly with regard to what "Archive" it refers to - and cite its source before restoring it.--Jim10701 (talk) 22:10, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bizarre note about unspecified "Archive" 

message: His music on Amazon.com has the spelling Stefan Grappelli, surely this is a significant alternative spelling. I had great difficulty finding this page, there is possibly no redirect from that spelling. LittleBen (talk) 01:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Then make one. Seriously, you have to get out of the mindset that your not having made significant edits to this page disallows you from fixing technical glitches in the page. And you really should stop attacking me for doing the same. elvenscout742 (talk) 02:06, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

text: Note: When I posted the above, I was unaware that LBW had violated a topic ban by posting this here. elvenscout742 (talk) 06:53, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

text: Agreed; considering that the editor who added it has been permanently blocked from wikipedia, which raises suspicion, I'm just going to remove it. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 02:10, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stefan Grappelli and other names 

message: As a reader having just stumbled upon this article, I can only say it is confusing to first read he was gay and then read a paragraph about the (female) love of his life. I have read the arguments in the previous title on this subject, but nothing seems to have come from it. Someone should perhaps rewrite it so it says something along the lines of "presumably bisexual because of sources 1, 2 and 3 saying A, but sources 4 and 5 say he was B. If that is impossible, you can as well remove the whole part about his live life, as the current contents simply doesn't make much sense. YellowOnline (talk) 13:17, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: But he wasn't "presumably bisexual." The sources say he was gay (but had a child with one woman). Gwendoline Turner is not mentioned in any other sources, which Balmer says is because Grappelli was so sad that he never talked about her even with his friends, but which also makes it impossible for us to use Balmer's source to overrule a bunch of other sources that say differently. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 13:56, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the article, giving preference to actual cited relationships and changing the wording of the gay bit so that everything lines up in a more rational way ("Numerous sources have said that Grappelli was gay."). If you can't understand why it seems conflicting that the article said the subject was gay and then described the two most significant (or, at least, the only ones cited) relationships in his life as long term romantic relationships with women then I don't know what to tell you. Preference should be given to concrete facts, not innuendo and generalization. The citations about Grappelli being gay that are accessible online are notably weak, one "My French friends said everyone knows he is gay", which has about as much weight as me saying that all my American friends know Tom Cruise is gay, and the other "He was a meticulous, stereotypical gay man with these stereotypically gay playing characteristics...." -- which to me seems insulting and questionable on multiple levels and makes no reference to any authority or source of knowledge about the man's personal life. The other citations, which are not available online, were (like the two just mentioned) also all notably published after Grappelli's death. It's fine if he was gay, if he had a documented gay relationship that was important in his life then that would be great for someone to cite, as it is we have two documented romantic relationships with women one of which led to a child, and also multiple sources that say he was gay, so I changed the article to fairly reflect those things in a non-confusing way. 50.137.55.168 (talk) 04:35, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: We've been through this, and "source after source confirms he is gay" is not "innuendo" or "generalization." If anything is sketchy here, it's the claim about Turner, which despite her supposed importance in Grappelli's life is reflected in no other source. We treat this extraordinary claim appropriately by attributing it, but it's not necessary to attribute the general consensus of sources as though it's the opinion of a few randos. I'd also be delighted if someone found and added information on any same-sex relationships that he had, but that's because it's information, not because there's something lacking in the sources we have. I'll also add that if you expect every historical gay figure to be 100% gold-star gay with no opposite-sex relationships whatsoever, you are very confused about how compulsory heterosexuality/heterosexism works. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:45, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you have an axe to grind and are diminishing the quality of the article and of wikipedia in general by lording over the article and instantly changing it whenever someone else attempts to make the "Personal Life" section more objective and professional (which has apparently happened several times). Stating as a simple factual matter that some historical figure "was gay" is just as problematic as stating that the figure "was heterosexual" -- it is virtually impossible for such a broad statement of fact about a person's intimate life to be supported in any objective and factual way. This is even more problematic when the sources cited to support the broad statement of fact in this case are themselves highly questionable. Note that in this case there is documentary historical evidence of Grappelli participating in a specific sexual relationship with a woman and having a daughter, but only hearsay to indicate that he was gay. I am just an anonymous passerby, but I truly hope the direction wikipedia is moving is not to begin the personl life section of every famous person with "X was gay." or "X was heterosexual." or "X was bi-curious." or "X was asexual." Broad, quasi-factual statements like this are exactly contrary to the formality and objectivity that is supposed to define this encyclopedia project. 50.137.55.168 (talk) 06:29, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gay? bis 

message: In the instruments sections the saxophone is mentioned as one of the instruments played by Grappelli. Is this a true fact? Any resources? citations? I think it should be removed until any evidence is provided. Shimmy (talk) 19:51, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did Grappelli played the saxophone? 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131005003326/http://midniteinparis.tumblr.com/post/9935090286/performer-adelaide-hall-and-her-husband-manager to http://midniteinparis.tumblr.com/post/9935090286/performer-adelaide-hall-and-her-husband-manager
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080607122802/http://www.jazz.com/dozens/the-dozens-twelve-essential-stphane-grappelli-tracks to http://www.jazz.com/dozens/the-dozens-twelve-essential-stphane-grappelli-tracks
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "Supported by evidence"? What do you think the cited sources are, chopped liver? Edit: And now that I look back at previous talkpage discussions, I see that you're the same user that insisted that an uncorroborated rumor about Gwendoline Turner was more reliable than multiple independent sources pointing out Grappelli's homosexuality, and needed to be prodded to read the sources to believe that this was more than "supposition." You need to put down the stick, the horse is dead. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:33, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Like...the sources don't say "rumored." The IP editor just made that up, and you're willing to go with something that is not sourced because adding unsourced material to a biography is more acceptable to you than a bio subject being gay? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:58, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I was responding to the statement in your edit summary when you said that his being French and being a violinist were rumors. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 20:05, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: If you just want to have a friendly conversation, why did you restore the unsourced "rumored" to the article text?  –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:08, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I was lazy - the edit summary was inaccurate, so I undid the edit. I have no opinion one way or the other about how or when to describe the sexuality of those public people for whom their sexuality is not part of their public persona. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 20:11, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: So maybe demonstrate good faith by undoing your WP:POINTy edit yourself. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:12, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 20:14, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:35, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Rumored" 

message: Anyone feel like doing a bit of a Google hunt for Joseph Oldenhove? I've turned up a couple of sources referring to him as Grappelli's companion [ed. in French, "compagnon", or as some sources even specify, "compagnon de vie", is the phrasing of choice to translate "partner" or "life partner"], with other circumstantial detail:  (this isn't a usable source IMO but does note that they signed letters from both of them) –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:34, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: A hunt for Joseph Oldenhove? Did you see his name as the last listed source in our Grappelli bibliography? His book on Grappelli is in French but I see that you are fluent in French. Does he describe himself as Grappelli's lover? 68.0.205.227 (talk) 03:27, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I read French, but I only have partial access to the book and I'm not sure if he contributed any writing or just collated/edited. If there's anything that anyone wants me to take a look at, I'm happy to. For now, of course, we have all these lovely new sources for those users like you whose reservation was "we don't know his partner's name". –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:30, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't seriously propose using anything by Paul Balmer do you? Doesn't he invent stuff? 68.0.205.227 (talk) 03:41, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Luckily this statement, unlike his claim about Gwen Turner, is agreed upon by many other sources! I just found it amusing. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:01, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

text: It is not synthesis to say that when we're writing about a gay man, a man who's consistently described as "his companion" is his lover, while a woman referred to in one place as "one of the most important companions of his life" but that he also is noted to have regarded as a sister, is not his lover. Eddie, I really don't think you're taking this discussion seriously. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:56, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's the first line at SYNTH: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." As things stand we don't have a source that states 'Oldenhove was Grappelli's lover'. We have 'Oldenhove was Grappelli's companion' and 'Grappelli was gay'. You've combined them to conclude 'Oldenhove was Grappelli's lover'. (And, as you know, the 'regarded as a sister' comes from a friend; her actual sister suggests 'a romance' at some stage; the evidence is therefore equivocal on the female "companion".) Anyway, let's get on with finding a compromise wording. EddieHugh (talk) 15:11, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll just paraphrase what I wrote on your talk page: it's ludicrous that you're attempting to elevate the sister's guess that the relationship with Barclay could have been romantic over the multiple sources that state that it wasn't and the other sources which state that Grappelli was homosexual. It is not Wikipedia's policy to give greater weight or less strict sourcing standards to claims of heterosexuality. Your concerns about "genuine information" and a tie-in to the narrative of the article have been addressed: we have more detail, we have the name of a partner ("companion" is extremely common in English for a same-sex life partner, and moreover "compagnon" in French is the word of choice to translate this concept), it even ties in specifically to his career and legacy. If you simply will never be okay writing that someone is gay, do us all the courtesy of admitting it. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:16, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest withdrawing the homophobia accusation. Read above: I support the addition of material that further substantiates that he was gay. EddieHugh (talk) 15:22, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

text: Nope, not changing my mind. In fact, I'd like to double-down on my No. When you search for "Stephane Grappelli", the first 10 pages yields zero results that discuss or even mention his sexual orientation. None. His bio at Encyclopedia.com and Britannica don't mention his sexual orientation. None of his obituaries mention it, WaPo, Guardian, Independent, Telegraph, Reuters, New York Times, LA Times. This lengthy bio offers no insight into his sexual orientation. This lengthy piece in Rolling Stone says nothing about him being gay, in fact, it discusses the reason he didn't marry and old girlfriends. Balmers book mentions his old girlfriend. I've seen nary a musical review, Variety, LA Times, countless others, that discuss or mention his sexual orientation. If him being gay was so significant and an important aspect of his life and career, or as quoted above - Grappelli's flamboyant homosexuality was well known - why is this well known claim of flamboyance omitted in these search results and a vast and diverse array of sources. Permit me to tell you why, it's because you specifically and purposefully have to put in the keyword gay and/or homosexual to find any results, that's cherry-picking in my view to label him gay and include an insignificant and non-important detail of his life. Those sources who do gossip about it, pass it off as a trivial detail. To reiterate what I stated above, if Grapelli didn't self-identify his preference for a description of his sexual orientation, then that should be our practice as well. Isaidnoway (talk) 21:19, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Joseph Oldenhove

message: So there isn't one source an English that gives this vital information: "Also in the neighborhood was the artistic salon of R-26, at which Grappelli and Reinhardt performed regularly". This is a citation from a book in French but without the page number, and someone has added a "page number needed" template to it. This is the English Wikipedia and I speak English, as do most readers of English Wikipedia. I don't read French, nor do I have a copy of this book. Therefore I can not fix this citation. Have a nice day.Vmavanti (talk) 20:27, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cite template for page number, French source 

message: I see that he is listed as a Gypsy, Manouche or Sinti in some articles but this article does not make clear how he is descended from them. RichardBond (talk) 20:40, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Where are you reading this? You're not mixing him up with Django, right? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 11:11, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely not Gypsy; his father was an Italian non-gypsy and his mother a frenchwoman from Normandy, no gypsy connection there either. The gypsy/Manouches/Sinti connection was entirely from the guitarists he played with in the 1930s (and minimally thereafter). Tony 1212 (talk) 06:14, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnicity 

message: Hi, I noticed big gaps in the biographical portion (e.g. post-war to his death) so have started to fill in some of the missing info. More to do - especially details of his extensive touring and increasing public acclaim post-1973 and major concerts (Birthday Celebrations, Carnegie Hall, etc. etc.); also his continued interest in playing the piano (featured spot in every concert plus at least one solo album). I may get to it but others are welcome to hop in. Tony 1212 (talk) 06:10, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Big gaps in biographical portion 

message: We need a source documenting its rediscovery, not just a link to the song. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:37, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Reverted again. All the link attests is that the recording exists - and many, many Grappelli recordings exist, so why should we link any particular one unless a reliable source attests that there is something special about it? Wikipedia does not exist to promote anyone's Youtube channel. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:08, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert Adelaide Hall 

message: I've completely lost track of what the gay discussion decided, but I notice that Warlop gets very few mentions anywhere at all. Supposedly Reinhardt declared him to be his favourite violinist, not Grappelli, and others say that was because Reinhardt was homophobic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Warlop
And this collaborative album isn't in any discog - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00007M9KX/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
FangoFuficius (talk) 23:14, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Michel Warlop