Wikipedia talk:In the news/Archive 12

message: It does not appear to me that the Euro article has been updated much to reflect the current event, so I'm not sure it belongs on ITN. The euro is mentioned down in on this day... so there's really no benefit to it being in ITN as well. Alas, I'm changing the picture for the meantime. -- tariqabjotu 02:29, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article had almost no update. In fact, it looks like it has no more information than the news item. I removed it. —Centrx→talk • 04:26, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It probably was a good idea to remove it. There is hardly going to be anything else to add to that news article. Codu (t)⁄(c) •  13:05, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the little mention of Slovenia switching to the euro should be removed. The sentence is awkward in structure and I question why it’s mentioned with the enlargement of the EU and why it is notable enough to be on the main page. Also, the word “euro” should not be capitalized. – Zntrip 21:27, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slovenia Euro ITN item 

message: Could you edit the entry to start with Bulgaria and then Romania so that they are in alphabetical order, please? Thanks. --Vanka5 16:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Erm...is it really necessary? Nishkid64 22:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  EU enlargement 

message: Ignoring the debate about the notability of this news item, the article is very underdeveloped. This wouldn't even pass T:DYK as it is only 773 characters (plus a ton of diagrams). — BRIAN0918 • 2007-01-05 21:47Z
:Moved from Talk:Main Page:
The link to the Junior Ice Hockey Championships article takes you to an article that is quite shoddy with almost no text.  It consists mainly of charts.  Personally, I feel that this type of article does not deserve a link from the main page.  Thoughts? Mrmaroon25 21:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is simply too minor for the main page, regardless of the state of the actual article. Owen 22:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  For sports news on ITN, we usually only take the top level competitions in a sport with a wide international following. For ice hockey, that would be the NHL Stanley Cup and maybe the annual IIHF men's senior world championship, plus Canada Cup / World Cup of Hockey whenever it's held again.  Usual ITN rules also apply, i.e. no stubs, and no prose-less data sets, please. And breaking a high profile world record would do, too. -- PFHLai 04:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Junior Ice Hockey

message: Somehow I don't think a Cricket match, even if it is a particularly monumental/historic one fits in the "ITN" section. If American sporting events, namely the Super Bowl, aren't kept on the ITN page (I believe it was on there for a short time, but soon after was removed), then I certainly DONT think that a cricket match should make the section. Mientkiewicz5508 00:57, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd tend to agree with you, the Super Bowl happens every year and so shouldn't be mentiond, the Ashes happen every year and so ditto. However the blurb states that a 0-5 whitewash hasn't occured since 1921 and that 3 noteable Australian Team members have all annonced their retirement. All four points tend to add up to an unusual event so I guess it squeeks in. --Monotonehell 03:27, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's curently misleading because it states that the three cricketers retired afterwards. Most people will assume that they decided to retire after the 5-0, when in fact they all made the decision to 'retire after the fifth test' before the fifth test started. Carcharoth 03:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We almost never have two-sentence entries anyway, and I don't see how this information is important enough to justify that.  I've removed it.  —David Levy 03:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've a better reason to remove the bit about the retirements: they will still be playing for a while, just not internationally in Test series. That's not a real retirement !  I sign in again to fix this. Glad that it's already gone. :) --PFHLai 04:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

text: The general consensus seems to be that sporting events of this caliber are of sufficient international interest to qualify for ITN (assuming that the other criteria are met).  —David Levy 03:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sporting events of note are newsworthy, but cricket is inherently trivial unless one is British, Indian, Pakistani or Australian. Cricket news belongs in regional "Current events". --Ezeu 05:06, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Brits, Indians, Pakistanis and Australians ? That's a big portion of the world's population in different regions of the planet. And don't forget South Africans. --PFHLai 05:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Also the West Indies, NZ and Bangladesh!--HamedogTalk|@ 05:17, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

text: International interest ≠ worldwide interest.  —David Levy 05:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not that I'm arguing for or against this particular entry (don't care enough) - the criterion states "...story of an international importance, or at least interest." International means of or relating to two or more nations. So what's your point here? --Monotonehell 05:55, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That was my point.  (The entries needn't be of worldwide interest.)  —David Levy 06:04/06:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Very good. It dawned on me 5 minutes later that might be it. lol --Monotonehell 06:09, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the entry before seeing this talk. IMO it is not interesting enough to put it there. --Tone 18:46, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Others disagree.  As I noted in my edit summary, you should check this page for relevant discussion before removing an entry.  —David Levy 18:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How many cricket-related items do we have to have on ITN, anyway? It seems like we are too biased on the sports here. We got blasted for adding the World Series (which was internationally significant), and yet people are perfectly fine with some cricket series that ended up in a 5-0 Aussie sweep. As of late, all the ITN-sports entries are cricket-related. I  mean, seriously...how many tournaments do you guys have? I see some guy breaking a record, another guy retiring, some team winning...it's just weird. Nishkid64 21:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, the Ashes was the best option from Wikipedia:In the news section on the Main Page/Candidates and Portal: Current events the past few days.  The cricket people did a good job on the wikipage. It was a newsworthy event. I can't see why we should leave this out of ITN when we don't have better candidates. This just happened to be sports-related. .... Too much cricket these days ? Many other prominent sports are not "in season" yet. Some are going thru' the boring part of their season. Please be patient, my friend. The 2007 Australian Open and Super Bowl XLI will likely get on ITN in a few weeks -- as long as the article is well written with up-to-date materials and we don't have bigger news items to use instead. Hopefully, we'll have some variety soon. --PFHLai 08:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

text: (move back left) I don't care if it stays or not, but doesn't "whitewash" sound like POV?  If not, then it is certainly a slang expression.  Either way, it seems clearly out of place on the main page.  Andrwsc 21:35, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The same vocabulary is used in the article. I assumed it's cricket terminology. Can someone familiar with cricket confirm this, please ? If it's wrong, please change it. Thanks in advance. --PFHLai 00:13, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly doubt it is part of any sports official terminology/vocabulary, but it certainly is used by sportswriters (both professional, and amateur on Wikipedia) to add "colour".  I think it's inappropriate on Wikipedia, and most certainly on the main page, just as if that sentence was written as "Australia demolished England", etc.  I would wager money that the editor who wrote that was Australian and wanted to "rub it in" a little bit...   The recently added article of Whitewash (sport) doesn't make it any more encyclopaedic.  The text on the main page is still unprofessional.  (BTW, I am neither English, nor Australian, nor do I care at all about cricket.  I just think it is a strikingly POV phrase.)  Andrwsc 01:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  How to fix it ? Call it a shutout ?  A sweep ?  That's not cricket, is it ? --PFHLai 02:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How about simply the "...first 5:0 series result in the..."?  That avoids any bias words and/or jargon.  Andrwsc 03:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whitewash means a clean-sweep with no draws. Simply stating 5-0 is ambiguous in case there were 9 matches or something. Blnguyen  (bananabucket) 22:46, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

text: For future reference: what is the threshold for sporting events? Would we need a separate criterion for this matter? This because Super Bowl XLI will be held in a month's time, and Wimbledon and the Tour de France are due this summer. When is a sporting event notable enough for ITN, if at all? Aecis No running, shouting or piddling in the shallow end 00:20, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why should the SuperBowl be included on the main page when it occurs? As far as I know, it only has popularity/interest in the US...it is American football (a NATIONAL game).  For instance, the Ashes is an INTERNATIONAL cricket match between two large nations and is of interest to all the cricket playing countries around the world.  If superbowl is put on the ITN, that will just confirm to me that wikipedia is too "US-Centric"  AussieNickuss 12:25, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  So the Stanley Cup Playoffs and NFL Europe, where 2 countries participate is ITN-legit, while the Super Bowl isn't? --Howard the Duck 14:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

text: In the past, it's generally been agreed that the pinnacle professional championship (or one sharing such a distinction) of any sport with international interest can qualify.  This describes all of the above events.  (Of course, there must be a new article or substantial update to an article.)  —David Levy 01:13, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  And breaking a high profile world record would do, too. (Usual ITN rules apply.) -- PFHLai 01:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Sporting events should not be on the News Page often. I don't think Cricket should be there, because it only matters to British and Australians really. I definitly don't think the Super Bowl should be there. I think Sporting Events like the World Cup or Continental Competitions should be ITN, or if something really major happens. Otherwise, in my opinion, it is not news worthy. Codu (t)⁄(c) •  14:42, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No offense, but did you bother to read any of the comments at all with regards to cricket on this page? Only British and Australians really? Nil Einne 12:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So it's not only Americans who watch the Super Bowl, the NBA Finals and the World Series, as for the BCS National Chmapionship Game, well, it was mostly Americans. --Howard the Duck 04:30, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

text: @Nil Einne. Yes I did read the comments. Maybe not only British and Australian, but mainly. That keep you happy? The population of Outer Botswana are hardly sitting glued to their TVs. Cricket is not a huge global sport. It is played and watched in a minority of countries. Codu (t)⁄(c) •  12:35, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 'Cricket is not a huge global sport': this is something of a misconception, common in countries where cricket is rare. In many present and former countries of the British Commonwealth, including many of the vastly populous countries of South Asia, it is by far the most popular sport. To say that cricket is of interest mainly to Britons and Australians is provably false, since the populations of those countries are dwarfed by those of, for example, India. --ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch\talk 12:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  We're nit picking now. Other countries like Cricket, and may enjoy it. This, I believe, still does not make it news worthy. The majority of people in these countries are not cricket players. Taking India as an example. It is a very poor country. Although I'm sure there are some real cricket fans there, I find it hard to believe that the average Indian has time in his day to play or watch Cricket. Cricket is not a big enough sport to be dubbed of "global" significance, and I believe anyone who claims this is lying to themselves. Codu (t)⁄(c) •  13:24, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

text: You'd be surprised. See street cricket - heaps of people just play with a plank of wood they picked up somewhere. Many south American countries are also poor and they play football all the time in the streets with makeshift equipment. Even if you only count the city elite in India who have done well from the economic boom, you'd get about 100-150 million at least. Blnguyen  (bananabucket) 23:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Don't take this the wrong way. It's not a personal attack. But I seriously think you need to spend a bit of time reading since you don't seem to understand how cricket crazy India is. While it's probably true the poorest of the poor have very little time for cricket, I would say the average Indian follows cricket (probably not on TV since they may not have a TV but at least the results). Of course, India is a very big country with 1 billion people so it's difficult to get a true picture but from what I've seen and heard, I would say your seriously underestimating the popularity of cricket. Case in point. I know someone (a New Zealander) who met an Indian (from India) labourer in Malaysia. Obviously this person can't be described as an average Indian. However foreign labourers in Malaysia aren't paid well by any stretch of the imagination so although above average, this guy clearly wasn't one of the 'middle class'. This first thing that this person commented on when finding out my friend was a kiwi, was cricket. Nil Einne 14:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Anyway my main point was IMHO you're quite wrong to suggest that cricket was only or mainly of interest to the British and Australians. For starters, AFAIK the Scottish and Irish aren't actually that interested in cricket. It's predominantly the English and to a lesser extent the Welsh. While the kiwi favourite sport is definitely rugby, cricket is called the summer game and is IMHO undisputedly the second favourite. South Africans are a bit more varied but it's still a very popular sport there. I'm not sure but I would say it's probably the favourite sport in most of the carribean, or at least those involved in the West Indian team. Then we come to the Indian subcontinent, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka all have a resonably high level of interest in cricket. Most commonwealth countries probably have some involvement and interest in cricket, although not necessarily a lot in many cases (coming from Malaysia, I knew hardly anything about cricket). I don't really want to get into the argument of whether or not this makes cricket a global sport, I simply wanted to make the point I made above Nil Einne 14:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, whilst cricket may not be a popular activity in Ireland or in Dundee, Indians and Pakistanis are absolutely mental for the game- that's a quarter of the world's population straight off the bat, as it were. In addition to that, it's the number 1 or 2 sport in England, Australia, the West Indies, NZ, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka etc and is a minority (but reasonably sizeable) sport in Scotland, Ireland, Holland, UAE and parts of the mid-east, and elsewhere. I'm not commenting on whether the Ashes should be included in ITN on the seemingly soon-to-be-abandoned international interest criterion (in my view it definitely should have been, since it was such a crushingly humiliating annhilation- the first whitewash in over 80-odd years). But cricket as a sport is certainly notable- in numerical terms of global popularity it is probably second only to football, except in Olympic years when track and field interest peaks. Badgerpatrol 15:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cricket

message: Why is she important enough to be on the main page? She's not Head of State of whichever country she's from, so who cares? --90.240.34.177 03:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: She's the leader of the legislature of the world's most-powerful country, which happens to include two-thirds of the world's native English speakers. She's also second in line to the presidency. Her election not only gives the U.S. government its highest-ranking woman ever but represents the change in party control in Congress -- an event that may have repercussions for the entire world. -- Mwalcoff 03:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The first female leader of -insert major traditionaly patriachal institution here- is noteworthy. Although the photo is getting stale, it's simply that we haven't had a suitable replacement picture as yet. --Monotonehell 06:17, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, so lemme get this straight - anything that happens in the U.S. government is internationally important? There are hundreds of people in line to the presidency; Bush and Cheney would have to die for her to actually be noteworthy. There was nothing stopping the Democrats taking "party control" in Congress. And I seem to recall the appointment of Yulia Tymoshenko as the Ukraine's first female Prime Minister had to make way for the death of Johnny Carson on the main page back in 2005. Give me a break. --90.240.34.177 21:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Minus the abuse this seems like a reasonable idea :Image:Seal of the US Air Force.svg --Monotonehell 08:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why not this? --Howard the Duck 08:40, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed - that's a good'un. As an aside, didn't Pelosi get her pic up on another occasion not long ago? I'm starting to see her mugshot when my eyes are closed. --Adzze 09:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps when the Dems took over Congress, her picture was also up. I see no reason why it wouldn't have been. I also see no reason that the new Congress being sworn in would not be ITN-worthy. It would be questionable if it was the average odd-numbered January, but with a switch of power in both houses of Congress and the highest elected office for any woman in American history, the news absolutely deserves to be on the Main Page. -- Kicking222 23:45, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Because her smile is sexy as hell Sf49rox 10:14, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please keep your comments to the point. This is an encyclopedia, not Baywatch. We put pictures up if they are relevant. Looks are irrelevant. Aecis No running, shouting or piddling in the shallow end 16:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Speaking of ugly, Dick CheneyDonald Rumsfeld must have been up for just as long... Nil Einne 11:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Not really, as that doesn't change the fact she was there in the first place. --90.240.34.177 21:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pelosi

message: Is this notable? And I don't think the article is long enough anyway.--HamedogTalk|@ 10:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  US Embassy 

message: This should be changed to English football player. — Gary Kirk // talk! 12:30, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If the contract had been signed elsewhere, I'd say yes, but the story teeters on the side of being an American event, so the 'pedia tends to use the American language.  youngamerican (ahoy hoy) 13:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

text: And it can't be the transfer fee either, because Beckham's contract with Real Madric expires at the end of the season afaik. Aecis No running, shouting or piddling in the shallow end 14:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the Beeb, his annual earnings will be about $50 mill US; including 10 mill salary, 10 mill club merchandising, and a 10 mill profit share, + his own personal endorsements. If that's true (and frankly I suspect those figures are probably BS) then that adds up to a pretty penny from the club, but I doubt if it is actually the biggest contract of all time. There is indeed no transfer fee. Badgerpatrol 14:17, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Should it not say "English football (soccer) player David Beckham (pictured) signs with Major League Soccer franchise the Los Angeles Galaxy, possibly the largest contract of all time for a sports player." Its the contract thats biggest. This clarifies it. Codu (t)⁄(c) •  19:37, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I felt bold and changed it.  Better?  Worse?  —Wknight94 (talk) 00:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's better than the previous version. Nishkid64 00:41, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

text: He signed at a Major League Soccer club, so it should say "soccer". --Howard the Duck 04:44, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't we leave it with both then both sides of the Atlantic are happy. Codu (t)⁄(c) •  11:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

text: And what do you think it would say if he signed with the National Football League? What sport is that? --90.240.34.177 16:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Impossible. --Howard the Duck 02:53, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll take that as an "I'm dodging the issue", then. --90.240.34.177 04:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hehehe, it's like asking if Michael Jordan will play ice hockey, eh? --Howard the Duck 07:47, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

text: But Somalia isn't the story currently being pictured, so why would anyone assume he was? --90.240.34.177 20:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

text: The ITN template is not only used on MainPage. Changing the position of the image may mess up the layout on other pages where the template is transcluded. So the ITN image is always at the top right corner. --PFHLai 14:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Great eyes !  The logo was too small for me to tell. .... Anyway, when you are done with the updating of wikiarticles related to the new Prez in Ecuador, please suggest a new headline, and possibly a better picture, on WP:ITN/C. Thanks. --PFHLai 04:23, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beckham 

message: Ecuador sworn in today its new president, a TOP STORY given the context it's taking place and yet Wikipedia continues to show Beckham unmistakable Adidas sportswear. Not nice at all. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6262555.stm --86.104.203.91 23:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great eyes !  The logo was too small for me to tell. .... Anyway, when you are done with the updating of wikiarticles related to the new Prez in Ecuador, please suggest a new headline, and possibly a better picture, on WP:ITN/C. Thanks. --PFHLai 04:23, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Adidas ?

message: Surely a brief description e.g "Helen Mirren wins best Actress at the 64th Golden Globe Awards in LA Adamcobb 08:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd rather wait for the Oscars. --Howard the Duck 11:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I concur with Howard. And please post suggestions at WP:ITN/C. Thanks. --PFHLai 14:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Golden Globes

message: I was thinking about the death of Art Buchwald, and while I don't think it should qualify for ITN, thinking about why it shouldn't qualify made me realize that we need another criterion under "deaths".  As it is, when people die of old age or natural causes, we pretty much put them up only when they're former heads of state (Pinochet, Ford).  The discussion over Milton Friedman's death suggests to me that this might be too narrow, but the reasons for keeping out noteworthy-but-not-internationally-significant figures like Buchwald are good ones.  Right now, the criteria for adding deaths is:
::A death should only be placed on ITN if it meets one of the following criteria: (a) the deceased was in a high ranking office of power at the time of death, (b) the deceased was a key figure in their field of expertise, and died unexpectedly or tragically, (c) the death has a major international impact that affects current events. The modification or creation of multiple articles to take into account the ramifications of a death is a sign that it meets the third criterion.
I'm wondering if we should consider adding a fourth criterion: (d) the deceased was a figure of great international significance, acclaimed with the highest honors during his or her life.  This is distinct from criterion (b) in that it is limited to figures who made significant contributions to the politics, culture, science or industry of the entire world.  This would include people like Friedman, but not Buchwald.
As our criteria stand now, if Stephen Hawking were to die next week from ALS complications, his death would not qualify for ITN, since he's been diagnosed with the terminal illness for several decades now.  And yet, I hazard that his death, like Friedman's, would provoke significant coverage in the world media, and many potential readers would come to Wikipedia to read his biography.  Similarly, if Warren Buffett came down with cancer, or had a heart attack, it wouldn't qualify as unexpected or tragic, because he's 76 years old (and apparently lives off of rare steak and Cherry Coke).
Shouldn't we have guidelines that would allow for the inclusion of figures like these? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Have a look at the last draft for all new criteria one of my suggestions was along the lines of yours. This isn't a dead and buried proposal. Rather, after the first round of discussion we're sitting on it for a bit, thinking about it. Once I or someone else comes up with a solution to the unresolved problem we faced, then I'll put it forward again. --Monotonehell 04:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A suggestion about the "deaths" criterion 

message: I'd suggest that Hans-Gert Pöttering, as president of the European Parliament, have his picture placed on the main page as opposed to the Iraqis currently pictured.  Canæn  07:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Its copyright licence is not compatible with that intended use. In fact it may be up for deletion soon. --Monotonehell 12:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion: Poettering's picture be placed on front page. 

message: what on earth is this doing in Wikipedia ITN?? dab (𒁳) 11:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Kids? The fact is, when incidents on a TV show has caused the parliament of one country to discuss it, the man widely expected to be the next Prime Minister of said country to publicly speak out about it during a visit to another country, leaders and the public in this second country where the show is not broadcast to protest against it; well that is clearly a story of internationational interest no matter what your opinions of said events may be 203.109.240.93 12:05, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh and it obviouslly fulfills our updated article requirements too 203.109.240.93 12:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Indian parliament has discussed why Saurav Ganguly was dropped from the Indian cricket team, have they not? Yeah, well there you go. Just because some government prattles on about what is, in all honesty, a regrettable but trivial incident, hardly makes it newsworthy. Wasim Akram called white cricket administrators a bunch of "goras" a little while ago. That's also racism, from a well-known South Asian personality. That should've make Wiki's front page too according to this canon. Moral of all this? Keep trivial stuff off the front page. Peter1968 14:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Not all news of international interest has to be about a large number of people dying or a political shakeup. The Celebrity Big Brother incident has garnered wide international attention, and even statements from Indian and British national officials (as the ITN item says)... were you at this time last year asking what on earth an item about some kids printing cartoons in some newspaper doing on ITN? I know this one will be borderline, but you have to remember it was replacing an item on David Beckham, which wasn't exactly an earth-shattering event in itself. -- tariqabjotu 12:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is one of the more clearly ITN-worthy entries we've had in quite a long time. A few "kids" make some remarks, gets leaders of powerful nations talking and sparks widespread protests in the world's second-largest nation? The effects are more important then the nature of the event itself. Grandmasterka 12:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I personally think Big Brother and the whole concept is a joke. This has got a lot of news attention. The houses of Parliament in India and the United Kingdom have both talked about this. There may be more, but I'm not sure. In my opinion, this is definitly ITN-worthy. Codu (t)⁄(c) •  14:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you very much for saying so, Tariq, Grandmasterka and Codu, I appreciate it. I am glad that you deemed my nomination ITN-worthy. I will try to provide more candidate entries whenever I get a chance. Ekantik talk 04:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Could television show please be appended to Celebrity Big Brother for clarification. --90.240.34.177 20:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: some kids made racist remarks on some television show

message: Does anyone else find it odd that the picture on ITN today is the fifth story listed?  There are some times when ITN doesn't even have five stories?  Couldn't we find one free picture of Dink, Kyrill, Shetty/Big Brother, or Pöttering? OCNative 00:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are a couple of photos of downed trees at Kyrill (storm), but I'm not sure how good they'd look cropped and at 100px.  We could add Comet McNaught, which has some nice free images associated with it (it's been suggested at /Candidates, but I wasn't sure it was sufficiently newsworthy).  But to answer your question — I did look for free images of Dink, Shetty and Pöttering, and couldn't find any.  :/ Of course, we could argue that now that Dink is dead it's no longer even theoretically possible to get a freely licensed image of him, which makes the fair use claim rather solid — but I suppose that the ideological point of having freely licensed images only on the front page supercedes the actual fair use law. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

text: A free photo of Shilpa Shetty is now available at the article page. From Wikimedia Commons, but I am not sure if this is allowable. Someone please check? Ekantik talk 04:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That image would be acceptable, but I think that the moment may have passed, since the ice storm story is placed above the Shetty one.  On the other hand, they're both tagged as January 19, so I suppose they could be switched.  Thoughts? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:51, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture on ITN

message: Shouldn't Ogün Samast be mentioned on the main page as well? Khoikhoi 23:35, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hrant Dink 

message: We've had a bit of an edit war on the template today between folks trying to balance "In the News" against a rather long "Today's Featured Article" and folks emphasizing the recommendation for 3 to 5 items in "In the News".  Let's talk this out instead of reverting each other— which is more important, balance or number of items? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My opinion: balance first, number second. However, we can have both. For example, cutting down the number of DYK items (which was up to a stunning nine) is reasonable too. -- tariqabjotu 23:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: IMHO, balance.  Under some pretty extreme circumstances, I can see us capping ITN and then backfilling On this day, but that would be pretty rare--I've done that exactly once in the last year, and I think it was because we'd gotten an enormous FA and literally no more updates to post from the past 10 days.  I think the posted guideline for number of items (it's at something silly like four at the moment) hasn't been followed and isn't really all that relevant post-main page redesign, and arguably was too conservative even on the old layout.  The Tom 23:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Balance or number of items? 

message: I think that the text we have is a bit unfair. When compared to the elections in 2003 Democratic Party won almost twice the number of voted while radical party stayed around the same. I think that text we have is trying to prove the negative outcome while it's not. It's important to say that nationalists have only one party to vote for - radical party while there are several left and center "democratic" parties. Not to mention that the party which was led by Slobodan Milosevic won only 5.9%! Avala 14:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serbian elections 

message: I think that the text shown is slightly POV and violates neutrality (referring to the election). For instance, it should be said that ..Radicals lead, followed by Democrats..Radicals didn't achieve majority as most voted for the democrat bloc.. or something like that. The fact that SRS received most votes means nothing - compared to the last (2003) elections, the Serb Radicals have lost their strength. This news depicts (if I imagine that I know nothing of the subject) that the Radicals are winning and might create the next government. This very unlikely to happen. And most of all, the text shouldn't express this like a braking news - because in Serbia, it is traditional that the Radicals always win most votes. And always the parties of the democratic bloc unite against the "greater evil" and form a government. It has always been like it and does come like a surprise. I suggest rephrasing it a bit (acording to my personal suggestion). --PaxEquilibrium 19:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: (moved from candidates page)

message: I propose making the ITN picture its own, self-contained entry. This would solve the problems of readers being confused over which entry goes with the picture (if you look at the picture first, which is what most people do, you then have to scan the list to look for the '(pictured)' thing, that is, if you are aware that is what you should do). The more natural thing is to look below or next to the picture. I propose that the ITN item that has a suitable picture should get a shorted version of an ITN tagline, and that this is used as the caption for the picture, and that there is no corresponding ITN tagline in the bulleted list. Has this been suggested or tried before? I tried a mock-up here, but could only get a caption by using the 'thumb' parameter. How do you get a caption for a picture without having the box around it? Carcharoth 17:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This issue keeps coming up again and again. Several solutions have been proposed, but none have been adopted as yet. --Monotonehell 03:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

text: The only practicable improvement in clearness, I think, would be if the picture were always tied to the first item.  This would require considerably more thorough updating, though.--Pharos 00:13, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solving the picture problem 

message: Thesaurus time.
"steadfast": loyal, reliable, committed, brave, dedicated, untiring. A person who is steadfast is one who can be trusted. Not NPOV language.
"reaches out": extending an olive branch, offering a helping hand, expressing empathy or solidarity. A person who reaches out is a person who seeks peace and offers sympathy, and to whom, in turn, people are sympathetic. Not NPOV language. 
As I was writing this, the whole State of the Union thing was removed. If it comes back, let's not see it come back with that language. — coelacan talk — 22:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, wikilinking "political opponents" like that seems a pretty unsubtle association game. Just go with Democrats if that's used at all. — coelacan talk — 22:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't see what's so point-of-view about that language. Yes, he did remain steadfast in his Iraq policies, and yes he did reach out to the Democrats with viewpoints usually associated with the Democrats. Again, not sure how the Democrat link is an issue; not everyone is an American, you know, so not everyone will know who the Democrats are (especially because it's a widely-used phrase. Unsubtle association game? You're reading into things too hard... -- tariqabjotu 22:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Every word has a frame. "Steadfast" is literally a title applied to nobility (John, Elector of Saxony), because it's such a positive-association word. Try to think of "steadfast" in a negative way. It's possible, but it's definitely not your first association. "Reach out" works the same way. It's a good thing. It's not a neutral descriptor of an action. Reaching out is something we ask people to do when we're in need, and if they do it, we're thankful and perhaps even indebted to them. It's used in conflict minimization through nonviolent communication. These just aren't neutral terms. The same information could be conveyed with "U.S. President George Bush delivers his State of the Union Address, in which he maintains his Iraq policies, and proposes environmental and social reforms." As to the Democrats, it wasn't even "his political opponents", just "political opponenets." Whose? "[You the reader's] polticial opponenets"?  That's the apparent frame. It's part-and-parcel of declaring the Democrats to be "obstructionists". Maybe I'm reading in too much there, with the opponents language, but in any case it's inaccurate. Joe Lieberman is not his political opponent. Bush is not a particularly conservative Republican, and there are plenty of conservative Democrats in Congress who see eye to eye with him. — coelacan talk — 23:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Goodness gracious, if we are going to nitpick every entry like that, then we are in trouble. --Ezeu 01:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

text: that's what I meant: ITN flash:  nothing new on the Eastern front, says Bush. dab (𒁳) 11:51, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV language on Bush 

message: To be frank, how is a military setting a curfew internationally significant?  My town has a curfew as well, as does a majority of cities and towns across the world.  Perhaps a different blurb abut the civil unrest that doesn't seem so insignificant would be more appropriate. American Patriot 1776 01:35, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Does your city have a curfew because people led by a militia considered a terrorist group by six countries have recently been engaging in violent protests calling for the establishment of a new national government? -- tariqabjotu 02:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Okay, in all serious, it appears to me that the focus is on the civil unrest and not the curfew. Do you have a suggestion for a rephrasing that would clarify the significance? -- tariqabjotu 02:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps this rewording will make the topic seem more important.   "Violence in Lebanon (flag pictured) between pro and anti-government groups continues to escalate into widespread civil unrest." American Patriot 1776 16:59, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Except it hasn't really continued to escalate, as far as I can tell.  Stuff peaked on Thursday and then the curfew was imposed.  The Tom 17:49, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

text: AFAIK, very few cities and towns in countries across the world have general curfews (some have youth curfews but even that isn't that common). Curfews in response to unrest however is fairly common. To be honest, I was wonder surprised to hear that towns in the US have curfews... You learn something new everyday I guess 203.109.240.93 11:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Curfew 

message: Shouldn't that be considered internationally significant?, specially considering that this is one of the major anti-Bush protests since the start of the iraq invasion--Gonzalo84 00:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Haven't there been major anti-Bush protests all the time, along with anti-Iraq protests in many of the other countries involved? 203.109.240.93 11:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-Iraq invasion protests 

message: Disambiguate black box (transportation) to flight data recorder and/or cockpit voice recorder? --Christopherlin 15:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adam Air Flight 574 correction 

message: I'm not an admin so I can't fix it, but where it says: 
"In Guinea, a general strike which has resulted in at least 59 deaths in violent clashes between police and demonstrators ends after 17 days."
it should say:
"In Guinea, a general strike that has resulted in at least 59 deaths in violent clashes between police and demonstrators ends after 17 days."
or possibly:
"A general strike in Guinea, which has resulted in at least 59 deaths in violent clashes between police and demonstrators, ends after 17 days."
Thank you,
Coemgenus 18:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed.  Thank you!  —David Levy 18:45, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  which/that