Talk:Mikhail Botvinnik

message: "Born in St. Petersburg, the son of a dental technician, he first came to the notice of the chess world at the age of 14, when he defeated the world champion, Jose Raul Capablanca, in a simultaneous display."
What, exactly, is "simultaneous" supposed to mean in this sentence? Simultaneous with what? Livajo 07:31, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: See  Simultaneous chess  in Chess terminology. — Monedula 11:32, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Birth

message: About the phrase:
"although Reuben Fine, one of the strongest players in history not to have won the world title, wrote that Botvinnik's collection of best games was one of "the three most beautiful"."
I have The World's Great Chess Games by Fine, and there he ranks the collections of Lasker, Fischer and Alekhine as the three most beautiful.
I hope someone with privileges can correct this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.54.125.99 (talk) 18:07, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know which edition of Fine's "The World's Great Chess Games" 200.54.125.99 has. I have the 1952 edition, which says "the collection of his(Alekhine's) best games is among the three most beautiful (I would rank Botvinnik and Rubinstein as the other two)." Philcha (talk) 13:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Precision 

message: I have removed the following paragraph, which is embedded in a long discussion of allegations by Bronstein, in a referenced 1995 book:
: Reference to the site chessmetrics.com in 2007 tends to support Bronstein's points. Chessmetrics is a site which endeavours to place chess ratings of strong players in historical context, while correcting for different methods of calculation. Formal chess ratings for top players were not formally introduced internationally by the World Chess Federation (FIDE) until 1970; they had been used in the United States and Canada since the 1950s for national play. The lack of ratings made it difficult to compare the relative strengths of players at that time, especially since there had been almost no international chess involving the top players from the different parts of the world during World War II. Chessmetrics puts the Argentinian Najdorf's February 1948 rating at 2797, #2 in the world behind Botvinnik, and Botvinnik had lost badly to Najdorf at Groningen 1946. Boleslavsky hit 2738 at the same time, for #5. Bronstein himself sat at 2721 for #8, and this would rise later in the year after he won the Interzonal. Another very strong player at that time was the Swede Gideon Stahlberg, who was #3 in the world at 2762. None of those four players were included in the 1948 World Championship tournament.       
The above seems to be largely speculation by the editor of the paragraph, based on his personal observations.  It draws on primary sources to reach a conclusion.  I have removed it for now on suspicion that it may be Original research, which is not permitted in Wikipedia articles.  If a Reliable source for these speculations can be found, it can be replaced. --Tony Sidaway 16:56, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Chessmetrics

message: Pragensis has asserted in the Mikhail Botvinnik article that Jews should not be reflected as such if they are Soviet or Communists.  He wrote, as his sole basis for his RV of the sourced reference to the fact that Botvinnik was Jewish: "Botvinnik was not Jew but communist and Soviet."  
Keeping the original language, I explained that he was Jewish, as cited, and the fact that he was communist and Soviet has absolutely nothing to do with whether he was Jewish.  
He supported his next revert with the following novel POV: "he was from a Jewish family, but I doubt whether he personally was a Jew as a member of the communist party...."  This suffers from the above problem, and only presents as support for his revert his unsupported POV.
In the interest of resolving this on the discussion page, rather than join others such as Pragensis in their endless series of reverts on this and other pages over the past two day, I move this discussion for the moment to the talk page.
Since it is part of a series of similar instances, relating to other Jewish chess players such as Wilhelm Steinitz, Samuel Reshevsky, and Aron Nimzowitsch, I suggest that discussion be had on the talk page of Reuben Fine, where I have initiated discussion with a more fullsome analysis of the arguments presented.
This is a problem, I would submit, that goes beyond this article.  It continues, as Pragensis continues to strip these mentions out of Wiki bios, despite discussion and multiple citations (his answer to the citations is to delete them). 
I would suggest that the RVs that I have pointed out by others are bereft of basis or citations.  
Therefore, I would ask that they undo their RVs of the sourced material while this discussion takes place on this page.
Furthermore, for the above reasons, I believe that the original language should remain permanently.
I would be grateful for suggestions as to both how to fix this issue on this page, and in general. 
Thanks.--Epeefleche 20:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever the final form, the reference to "Jew" must be moved up earlier in the sentence, to clarify that it applies to B -- as it stands, it can be read as applying to his father.  
--Epeefleche 22:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Series of Reverts of sourced statement that Mikhail Botvinnik was Jewish

message: This article has a lot of excellent content, but I think there's room for more, and I think a restructure would help:
* Chess career (with sub-sections), concentrating on chess results.
* Assessment of Botvinnik's play and contributions to the game.
** Playing style. Strong on strategy, weak on tactical calculation (by his own admission); but often used "strategic" reasoning to get through complications (saw a Tal quote once about this, can anyone help?). Long-term positional sacs. One of the 3 most beautiful best games collections (says Fine).
** Playing strength.
** Ideas on physical, mental and technical preparation. Limited competitive play to avoid risk of staleness. Ruthless objectivity in assessing competitors, rising stars and and himself.
**B's part in the "Soviet School of chess" (including as Kasparov's mentor).
**Contributions to opening theory.
**Relationships with other players (with brief refs to later sections). E.g. apparently on good terms w Smyslov, especially as they got older.
* Political issues. Poisonous nature of Soviet chess politics.
**B's fawning letter to Stalin after Nottingham 1936 (B later said, "You had to do that to survive in those days.").
**Pressure on B as the only Soviet rising star of the 1930s.
**Alleged pressure on Bs opponents to underperform, and Bs responses.
**The Soviet championship "match-tournament" after B came last in normal Sov Championship tournament.
**Olympic controversy and the revolt against B by other Soviet players in the 1950s.
**B on Jews, Israel and Korchnoi.
* Achievements outside chess (quick refs to this in the chess career also, as engineering work seems to have interfered with his chess at times). I remember seeing somewhere that B was a keen and good amateur ballrom dancer, can anyone help? Philcha (talk) 13:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Revisions needed

message: That image is just not how Botvinnik is remembered. Any picture from the early 1930s (in his early 20s) to the late 1960s (in his mid-50s) would do, as the only noticeable change was that his hair receded. But I'd still like to see the pic of Botvinnik at age 16, possibly opposite the earliest part of his career, just to remind us that he hadn't always looked the same ever since the Big Bang. It's amazing to see how much he changed in 6 years, then how little he changed in the next 35. Philcha (talk) 03:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've re-shuffled the images to match Botvinnink's age at teh time, and put the 1933 pic in the infobox as it's the best one that shows the way he looked for most of his career. Philcha (talk) 10:42, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image at top of article

message: I propose to wrap all this up in one section, using the same sources as in my recent edits of World Chess Championship 1948 and Paul Keres, plus a few others. Topics: fawning letter to Stalin after Nottingham 1936; alleged pressure on Bs opponents to underperform, and Bs responses; the Soviet "Absolute championship" "match-tournament" after B came last in normal Sov Championship tournament; Olympic controversy and the revolt against B by other Soviet players in the 1950s; B on Jews, Israel and Korchnoi. I propose to start by pointing out the poisonous nature of Soviet chess politics and the fact that, as he was the Soviet Union's first home-grown champion, anything B did or said (or did not do or did not say) had political repercussions. Philcha (talk) 05:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding Botvinnik, Keres and the 1948 tournament, I would rather have it all in one place - either at World Chess Championship 1948, or an entirely new article. (Probably the former, unless it gets very long). The problem with duplicating it in 3 articles is that they quickly get out of sync when a different editor edits one article but not the others. p.s. Good on you finding "The Keres-Botvinnik case revisited" - I hadn't seen that one before. Peter Ballard (talk) 06:58, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of the material I'm planning for Mikhail Botvinnik doesn't relate to Keres or the 1948 tournament. The only para that would be duplicated would be the one about the 1948 tournament, and that's only about 6 lines; and I'd restructure the way refs are used in that para, because in the Botvinnik article they have to support several topics. As a software developer I'm naturally against duplication, but a Wikipedia guideline whose name I forget says articles should be reasonably free-standing, and I'm willing tolerate duplication of 6 lines for that. The only way to avoid duplication more or less completely (100% is impossible) would be to start a new article on the institutional corruption of Soviet chess, which might start WWW3 (Wikipedia World War 3) - and I don't fancy getting 2008 started with that kind of bang! Philcha (talk) 13:19, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I've summarized all the info I can find about political controveries relating to Botvinnik. At present there are also 2 blocks of commented-out material, which I hope will stay there until everyone's happy with the section , as it can be re-used. Then we can remove it in a few weeks. Philcha (talk) 10:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Political controversies surrounding Botvinnik

message: Someone really should add some of these. All the other chess players entries in Wiki have some. I would do it myself but I am no expert on Botvinnik.  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 22:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable games 

message: Someone's put a "Citation needed" tag at the end of the para which refers to political controversies. The section "Political controversies" contains 15 citations, to at least 6 separate sources. To cover the ground properly the final para of the intro would probably need 6 citations. IIRC there's a guideline somewhere that intros need not have (or even should not contain) citations. Can anyone clear this up?
BTW I'm removing the "Inappropriate tone" tag from the start of "Political controversies". Philcha (talk) 13:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "Citation needed" tag in intro

message: Steveshelokhonov has retitled "Early years" to ""Early and formative years" and added:
::His early childhood was marked by several important influences. One was the 1914 international chess tournament in St. Petersburg, in which the title "Grandmaster" was first formally conferred by Russian Tsar Nicholas II to five players: Lasker, Capablanca, Alekhine, Tarrasch and Marshall, and which the Tsar had partially funded. Another was the set of chess, a gift young Botvinnik received from his father.
I don't think the re-title is an improvement. It's hard to see how the 1914 tournament could have been much of an influence on a 3-year-old - especially as several sources say Botvinnik did not learn the moves until age 12 (1923), e.g. Fine The World's Great Chess Games. I don't know what caused Botvinnik to learn the moves then but I've never seen any mention of a chess set received from his father. And there are no references to support the additions. Philcha (talk) 20:43, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 1914 tournament? Chess set from dad?

message: There are some items I remember and would like to include but for which I can't find sources:
*Botvinnik 's admission that he was weak in tactical calculation. I have a vague feeling it was in Keene & Divinsky's Warriors of the Mind, possibly in connection with the Botvinnik-Tal matches.
*A story about Tal and Botvinnik analysing a complex position - Tal poured out a torrent of variations and then was astonished when Botvinnik simply said something like "put piece A on square X, piece  B on square Y and piece C on square Z; then the defense will hold."
*Petrosian saying there was an "unpleasant feeling of inevitability" when playing Botvinnik and compared him to a bulldozer, to which Keres replied "Imagine what it was like when he was young!" (this one's really annoying me, I found on it the Web about 2 weeks ago but Google can't find it now).
:::Found it:  - Google didn't look far enough down the page! Philcha (talk) 12:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Please help with sources

message: I've reinstated the comments in the intro about Botvinnik's engineering career and the nickname "Iron Mike":
*The fact that B was an active electrical engineer while competing for and holding the world title makes his chess achievements all the more impressive. He was in fact a fairly notable electrical engineer who wrote several papers on power-suppply systems as well as on computer chess (so arguably at least as notable in electrical engineering as Emanuel Lasker was in maths or philosophy). His electrical engineering work got him suppport in the Electricity Ministry (Yuri Averbakh: An Interview with History, Part 2). Although published sources don't say this, I suspect having allies outside the Soviet chess bureacracy and Sports Ministry enabled B to take a more independent line on some political issues (see: the 1948 Keres affair; B's comments on the founding of Israel; B's successful campaign for the sacking of a chess bureacrat who was also a KGB colonel, in the Averbakh interview).
*The "Iron Mike" item is amusing and also illustrates his character and approach to the game. Philcha (talk) 11:08, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: His career as an EE is notable and belongs in. However I'm unconvinced on "Iron Mike". The source doesn't say that he was called "Iron Mike" in the 1960s, in fact there is no indication of when or how widespread the nickname was. I still don't think it's notable enough, and certainly not for the introduction. Peter Ballard (talk) 11:38, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The nickname "Iron Mike" was applied to B fairly often - I saw it a few times in the UK mag Chess in the 1960s, but I threw away my copies long ago. USchess was the only online source I could find. Does anyone know of other usable refs? Philcha (talk) 12:43, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

text: While we're discussing B as a person rather than chess-player, I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that B was an excellent ballroom dancer, almost competition grade. Can anyone comment? Philcha (talk) 12:56, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro

message: I've used the template package used for English monarchs, in order to handle the Interregnum of World Chess Champions - as suggested by Quale at Talk:Alexander Alekhine in March 2008. The same package seems to work well for Alexander Alekhine. Philcha (talk) 12:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: World championship succession

message: I'd like chessplayer articles to show more samples of their play because that's why we have articles about them and it makes a change from endless mugshots. The difficulty is where to put the continuations: if we put them in the main text, it disrupts the flow; if we put them in the captions, the diagrams get longer and and spill into the next section; if we put them in footnotes the reader has to jump backwards and forwards, or show the footnoote in a separate window / tab and flip between these.
I've found a way to present the continuation in a "show"/"hide" box in the diagram's caption. Here's the code for the sample diagram's caption (goes in the last section of Template:Chess diagram): 
{{Hidden 
| header = <p style="margin-right:8em; height=auto">Botvinnik-Yudovich, 
USSR Championship 1933</p> 
| content = After [[sacrifice (chess) | sacrificing]] a piece to 
expose Black's King, Botvinnik played 1. Bh5+ and Yudovich 
resigned as mate is inevitable, e.g. 1. ... Kxh5; 
2. Ng3+ followed by 3. Qe4+ Rf4; 4. Qxf4#.
|headercss=height:auto; 
|fw1=normal
}}
Notes:
*Template:Hidden provides better formatting capability than Template:Show hide box, from which I could not get a decent result.
*Must use the "header" keyword. If the header and content are plain text, Template:Hidden assumes that the first plaint-text param is the header and the 2nd is the content. But here the header is not plain text, so "header" is required and I've also used "content" just to be safe.
* (HTML paragraph tag) creates an inner box for the header text, enabling it to do 2 things:
**"margin-right:8em;" makes the header text stop 8 chars short of the right-hand edge, leaving space for "show"/"hide".
**"height=auto" makes the header text's box expand to allow multiple lines if needed.
* closes the inner box containing the header text, and is required.
*"headercss=height:auto;" makes the outer header box expand to allow multiple lines if needed - otherwise there's a risk that a multiline HTML paragraph tag (inner box containing header text) will overspill the outer header box and break the layout.
*fw1=normal shows the header text in normal font. The default is fw1=bold.
I've posted this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject_Chess#Chess_diagrams_with_moves to see whether others like the idea and whether it's worth refining the technique. Philcha (talk) 10:25, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think thats sort of cool.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:12, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Chess diagrams with moves

message: *Mikhail Botvinnik, Chess Champion and Teacher of Champions, Dies at 83 - NY Times obit.
*OBITUARY : Mikhail Botvinnik (The Independent)
* Book Reviews by John Watson #55
*Combinations: the heart of chess - some nice quotes
*Botvinnik: 100 Selected Games - results tables; "The Russian and Soviet School"; avoids simple positions
*Digital phoenix - B's PIONEER chess pgm later planned power station maintenance (p. 89-90)
*Revolution, repression, and revival - bio (pp 118-119)
* - married, 1 daughter
*Chess Strategy - sought simple positions against Tal 1961 (p 150) --Philcha (talk) 18:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: Very hard to find anything. --Philcha (talk) 22:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Botvinnik's family

message: I counted Botvinnik among the greatest players of all time, and one of the central people in the chess history, because it's obviously. He was the most importunate World Champion, and his later work, especially as coach to three World Chapmions (Karpov, Kasparov, and Kramnik) tells enough about this person.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 19:44, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I greatly admire Botvinnik: I his influence the methods top players use in preparing for events, his contribution to the FIDE system and his place as the advance guard of the Soviet Union's dominance in the game make him the most influential player since Steinitz; and achieved distinction in enginerring at the same time; and still found time to be a near-pro dancer! However Kiril Simeonovski's recent edits to the lead are not helpful, and I have undone them. See WP:LEAD. Avoid WP:PEACOCK language. --Philcha (talk) 10:01, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The lead section of the article is not defined as well as it should be, when you erite this. You also admire Botvinnik. For me, in the articel something is missed. Something that makes the distinction between Botvinnik and the others. His work as an electridal engineer, and his akgorithm are not enough to class him as leading chess coach and theoretician. His mastery in chess is not just by playing and analyzing. There aren't reliable sources that unify the chess and other branches, so it's imposiible to add  sections with the texts, not just in this article. All right, then. I'm not going to change the lead section again, but please have it in mind that changes are needed. It's not still perfect.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 15:38, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that we can replace the need for RS articles with our own feelings (whether they are correct or not).  Just the rules of the game.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:07, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Botvinnik and his contributions 

message: The table of Botvinnik's tournament results has no tournaments after the 1948 world championship match-tournament, even though Botvinnik played for another 22 years or so! How on earth is this article B-rated with such an omission? Krakatoa (talk) 21:41, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm downgrading the article to C Class. The criteria for B Class require, inter alia, that "The article reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies." Omitting over 20 years of tournament results is an "obvious omission." Krakatoa (talk) 21:46, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have a feeling he didn't play many tournaments after this time. Lots of candidates matches, world championship matches, team events and of course, the famous 'secret' training matches, but not I suspect many tournaments. I'll check, and if there aren't many, it should be easy enough for me to update. Brittle heaven (talk) 23:15, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, now updated, errors and omissions excepted. Brittle heaven (talk) 10:59, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  No tournaments after 1948! 

message: The information about Botvinnik's peak rating offered by  contradicts this article's infobox. Does WP:CHESS have any policy on unofficial FIDE ratings? Toccata quarta (talk) 09:30, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: They have been published in magazines, so I wouldn't have an issue with using them in the right context. Here however, when we look at the lifetime of the player, I'm not sure it achieves any purpose as Botvinnik was at his peak long before the Elo rating system came into being. Brittle heaven (talk) 21:41, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Elo calculated ratings before FIDE started using them in 1970 (when Botvinnik was past his peak).  On page 176 of his book, he gives Botvinnik's best five-year average as 2720.  His actual peak must be at least 2720.  On page 89 he shows that peak in about 1946.  Since this is the same system later used by FIDE, I'd put in a note about this - the Elo calculated an unofficial five-year average of 2720, before there were official FIDE ratings.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 23:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with Bubba73.  The ratings Elo published in his book are imperfect, as he selected only a small number of players to rate (easy for me to say, since he did his calculations by hand) and he gave only five-year averages.  All the same, they are the best we have for those players before 1971.  Quale (talk) 03:41, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  There are others in a similar position, like Petrosian.  His rating in Elo's book is higher than than his peak after FIDE started official ratings.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 04:05, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a reasonable plan for those that have them. Would you therefore put this in the infobox, tagged to a footnote explaining it's source/rationale? Brittle heaven (talk) 08:51, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peak rating 

message: In the "Team tournaments" section, several of Botvinnik's scores are given in thirds (e.g., 8-1/3 slash 11). Are these (shown as fractions) supposed to be halves (the tiny numerals are easy to misread), or was some special scoring rule in effect? WHPratt (talk) 16:40, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Corrected, see olimpbase.org, they are halves (8.5, 9.5 and 10.5).--Cbigorgne (talk) 16:57, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Very good. Maybe someone can edit in the fractions instead of the decimals to be consistent with the rest of the scores in the article. (There have been proposals now and again to discourage draws by scoring them as 1/3 rather than 1/2 for both players, or as 1/3 for white and 2/3 for black, hence my confusion.) WHPratt (talk) 14:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I was afraid that someone might do a correction badly and we'd end up with thirds again! WHPratt (talk) 18:17, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tournament scores 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 14 external links on Mikhail Botvinnik. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Yes he had that qualification, but except during the war did he ever work as an electrical engineer to any great extent? I don't believe he was a genuine chess amateur. To me the sentence in the lead paragraph lacks credibility. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 00:00, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Electrical engineering