Talk:Backdoor progression

message: I believe that should be "Authentic Cadence" - any V-I progression.  I'll change it  unless someone else gets to it first; I need to learn more about redirects, since it links to Cadence (music).  Special-T 20:16, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Perfect Authentic Cadence

message: Do people really consider this a sub for V? Are you guys sure you are reading the sources right?  I have always heard that this was a sub for IV minor (minor plagal cadence). There is no leading tone.BassHistory (talk) 11:57, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You may easily check all the sources yourself. Hyacinth (talk) 12:03, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The phrase "instead of" does not necessarily mean "substitute for." It could mean "instead of what you would normally expect to encounter," and that is not the same as "can be substituted for." For example, it is correct to say, "sometimes, instead of a V7 chord proceeding a I chord, a bVII7 chord proceeds the I chord." That is different than saying "A bVII7 chord can act as a substitute for a V7 chord." It might seem like a subtle difference, but it is a very crucial one.BassHistory (talk) 13:10, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If that book really says that bVII7 and #IIo7 are substitutes for V7, than we might want to consider consulting another source.BassHistory (talk) 13:24, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You could consider any source. Hyacinth (talk) 11:02, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no source except for myself at this time, but the "backdoor progression" referred to within this article is in no way a plagal cadence. It functions as a minor third substitution for the standard ii-V-I. In the key of C it would be a ii-V/Eb. It is a substitution. One way to justify this as a substitution is to consider the octatonic diminished scale. All notes a minor third apart share the same scale, supporting minor third substitutions in any direction (for a G7 one could substitute Bb7 Db7 E7 and then precede it with its ii chord). I believe this explains the behaviour of these chords in context of their common use in bebop.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.19.91 (talk) 22:25, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plagal, not sub for V 

message: "COLTRANE’S SUBSTITUTION TUNES" is a sub-par source. The analysis is flawed. I vote for its removal.BassHistory (talk) 14:11, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You do not yet have any citations here with which to argue that the analysis is flawed. So at this point you do not have a very strong argument that it is so. Hyacinth (talk) 00:13, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: What chord symbols should we use in this article? Hyacinth (talk) 21:55, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Chord symbols

message: This is stated in the article:
"Backdoor" also refers to the unexpected modulation created through the substitution of the highly similar Imaj9 for iii7 (in C: CEGBD and EGBD) at the end of the ii-V turnaround to iii (ii/iii=iv, V/iii=♭VII, iii)
I'll use the key of F to explain. The third degree of F is A. The second degree of A is B and the fifth degree of A is E, so the backdoor progression would be Bm7-E7-Am7, right? The backdoor progression is defined as iv7-♭VII7-I(or iii7). The fourth degree of F is Bb and the flat 7th degree of F is Eb, so the progression would be Bbm7-Eb7-Am7, which doesn't match up to Bm7-E7-Am7. Is the error in my thought process or in the explanation in the article? --Markkozlov (talk) 04:09, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanation of the Derivation of the Progression Does Not Add Up 

message: in this article it is stated that the progession resolves to iii-7 (because is has the same notes as Imaj9,  C E G B D and E G B D),
but the resolution of iv - bVII7 should be biii, e.g. f-7 - Bb7 - Eb and not E.
Therefore the backdoor progression should be f#- - A7 - E, with this explanation.
can someone help me how this is ment?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.217.253.10 (talk) 22:07, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  confusing resolution 

message: This is not a universal term. I am familiar with various jazz harmony texts, he is the only one to use the term in this way. The article should show this.BassHistory (talk) 06:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jerry Coker's Term 

message: Let's keep this in the key of C major for simplicity. 
There is a very old progression in popular music that goes F-Fm-C. A more complete version is C-C7-F-Fmin-C.In both cases, you have the third of F leading to the third of Fm, to the fifth of C (A-Ab-G). The ear hears this chromatic motion as pulling down from F to C. 
Now, here's the trick. Bb7 is just Fm6 with a Bb in the bass. So Bb7 is a sub for Fm6. And once you have a dominant 7th chord, you can always stick the related minor 7th chord in front of it. In this case, that would be Fm7-Bb7-C. 
So the Bb7 chord is not a direct substitute for G7 at all. The best you can say is that it's another way to lead to the tonic chord, like the dominant 7th does. 
If you look at enough old tunes, you'll see the songwriters cliche of C-C7-F-Fm-c quite often. They liked to have chromatic lines in the harmony, in this case C-Bb-A-Ab-G. Or if you use CMaj7, B-Bb-A-Ab-G. The idea for using Bb7 to get to CMaj comes from this old line cliche - it was just a way to get away from that same old gimmick. Like other line cliches, it became old-fashion sounding, so writers got away from using it 
MarkinBoston (talk) 22:10, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  We seem to have some confusion here.  

message: There are no bVII7 chords in "In My Life" or "If I Fell," only iv chords. I suggest better examples of bVII7 in the Beatles catalogue would be the end of the verses of "For No One" and the outro of "Wild Honey Pie."
HarmonicParadox (talk) 21:35, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beatles references are inaccurate  

message: Has anyone noted that this cadence (as bVII7 - iv6 - i) is the negative of the 2-5-1 (ii6 - V7 - I)? CPGACoast (talk) 16:53, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Negative harmony