Talk:Egyptian Arabic/Archive 2

message: The article states that Egyptian is spoken as a "Second language" in other Arabic speaking countries. This not true, while most natives speakers of Arabic understand Egyptian, they do not speak it, it does not qualify as a second language the way French qualifies as a second language in the Maghreb or english qualifies as a second language in some European countries. This should be corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.112.128.230 (talk • contribs) 
:This is wiki; please, feel free to improve upon the article. —  · t 17:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Second Language?

message: Here is a link to a list of words in the Port Said dialect that according to the site is an amalgam of words from various regional Egyptian dialects. It also contains a list of loanwords from European languages. One would think that coastal dialects like those of Port Said, Alexandria and Rosetta would be prone to having the largest amount of European loanwords.
http://portsaid-online.com/html/pslove/lahga.htm
— Zerida * 20:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Port Said dialect 

message: It looks like User:Mamduh is the inventor of the proposed alphabet used in this article, which would be original research, I think. Does anyone know more about it? The linked site isn't working for me. --Cam 20:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just checked and it's working for me . Yes, it would fall under WP:OR if kept in the body of the article, so the link currently under 'External links' should suffice. There was a proposal made by a former Egyptian prime minister (Abdel Aziz Fahmi) to switch to a Latin-based alphabet, but it never came to fruition. The most we can do is include that information under the History section.  — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · ☥ 02:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed alphabet 

message: muslim brotherhood is currently banned by the egyptian government and we are not to judge whether they are good or bad guys, while outlawed is a more judgemental term
84.36.107.14 17:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muslim brotherhood legal status 

message: I think that a section should be added on the actual use of Masri versus MSA. This tends to be one of the more confused issues with people often claiming that all written material is in MSA while the situation is more complex. Masri is very heavily used in writing in signs, banners, slogans, and billboards. It probably has a larger share of the poetic scene than MSA, and is almost universally used in personal letters. One other interesting phenomena is that it has become the de-facto language of most bloggers, it is the language of Internet chat, and anyone that posts on a messageboard in MSA is likely to raise eyebrows. There should also be a thorough description of how the oral scene is. The common wisdom is that MSA is used in formal speech, but even there, unless the speech is written in advance and rehearsed people immediately switch into the "intellectual" register of Egyptian Arabic.
If people don't mind I may go ahead and write this section, I am writing about this here first because I am seriously not interested in an edit war so I want the input of pan-Arabists if they have a criticism of the above description.
Karim
:I certainly hope that disagreements are not preventing anybody from contributing to the article to make them as informative as possible. Policies like WP:NPOV and WP:3RR are here for a reason. It would be great if you added that information. 
:I have a newspaper cutout that I also plan to add to the article when I get around to it. It's a Letter to the Editor composed entirely in Masri.
:Thanks for desiring to improve the article. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · ☥ 05:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use and registers need to be more fully described 

message: *- citations are needed for coptic being the "main" player in the development of egyptian arabic, my own opinion is that its influence is no more than any of the other languages that influenced the egyptian dialect, and there's no evidence (unless you provide one) that suggests that some certain features of egyptian arabic are actually imported from coptic in particular, as they could be imported from any other language whose speakers lived in egypt (and became egyptians actually). and since egypt has been for years the center of the old world, many people from various nations came to live in egypt, with various languages like farsi, turkish, french, english, plus languages from middle asia ( those from kazakhistan and those places where MAMALEEK came from ) and those from berberic areas in north africa, plus all those others that I need a history book to remember, so what is needed is a solid evidence why coptic played a major rule in particular surpassing all those other players? I guess one can't tell unless he studies all of those languages that affected the egyptian dialect, and not only studying coptic (which inevitably had an influence) and finding some sort of likeliness, then claiming it was the major player, while in fact it could be as influensive as any other player.
* -that was point one, point two: since you guys agreed (as I see in the archive) that the SAEDI dialect is a language by itself, and that it's unintelligible for north egyptians, same goes for FALLAHINI and NOBIAN as I see, why then claim that egyptian arabic has 78 million native speakers (the number which I think comes from egyptian censuses) ? you could safely cut that number to half, correct me if I'm wrong, citation is needed for that also,
* -thanks for listening :)
84.36.8.26 04:37, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  citations 

message: quote:
"Some therefore consider the sound in Egyptian Arabic to be a direct retention from ancient Egyptian or proto-Semitic, or it may be a secondary development from a palatal or palatalized /g/ ([] or [g]), which is the Sa'idi pronunciation of the consonant south of Cairo in the Sa'id, or Upper Egypt."
Comment:
It was simply intorduced when the first Arab tribes settled in Egypt; The Yemeni (gīm-speakers) tribes who came with عمرو بن العاص ‘Amr ibn al-‘Āṣ- settled in al-Gīzah and some other parts. Others, (jīm-speakers), settled in Ṣa‘īd. If we assume that ancient Egyptian was not Arabic (which is true), then how come that the ancient Egyptian phonology would have affected Egyptian Arabic, and only in the realization of a single phoneme? The proto-Semitic hypothesis is valid, but only through a proto-type of the Arabian Peninsular variety of Arabic that was introduced to Egypt during the Islamic conquest. This Semitic effect is seen in present-day Arabic in (at least) three dialects, namely, Aden-Taiz, (some varieties of) Omani and (some varieties of) Egyptian. The "velaric" realization of Jīm is also found in different dialects of Modern South Arabian, e.g. Mehri and Shehri (Jibbali)  cf.غيج (man) which is realized dialectally as either [] or [].(user: 9abdulla 22:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ج as [gīm] 

message: I think the "poet" and "hair" example cited above should be changed to شاعرة  "poetess; feeling (fem.adj.)" and شعرة  "single hair". Further examples that can attest the phonemic status of  and  include أب  "father" and قب  (a verb from which قبقاب  is derived). 
Regarding representing back vowels in notation, I don't think its approrpriate (or even in conformity with IPA) to use the superscript  to represent back vowels (or degrees of "backness", known by some as "emphasis in vowels") such as  in examples like . Such diacritics were meant to be only for consonants. But please also note that رأسي "my head" should be transcribed  while رقصي "my dancing" is  and راسي  "stable; stationed at harbour" is . (9abdulla 11:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So, if it is true that emphasis is a charactaristic of a syllaby or a vowel and not of a consonant, then there has to be not just a emphatic variant of /a/ and /a:/ but of /i/, /u/ and so on, too? The "emphatic" consonants would rather be allophones than phonemes since emphasis is a characteristic of syllabies, don't they? The non-emphasis and emphasis of a syllaby is phonemic.
I'm not an expert in linguistic but what about "assimilation" like in وسط pronounced  (emphasis assimilation) and  in فلسطين pronounced  (non-emphasis assimilation) <-- unsure about this example? How are these explained by emphasis being a characteric of syllabies? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.57.249.54 (talk) 15:01, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment on mininmal pairs and other aspects of Egyptian Arabic phonology