Template talk:Dead end

message: Please discuss this template here. If you are suggesting something, BE BOLD and change it yourself! But also mention it here so others know what happens. You do NOT need permission to change this, even though it is in my userspace. I do not own this page. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 23:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did some changes - in particular removed the "you can edit without knowing the subject" tag. We don't want completely indiscriminate links - even though I edit a lot of articles I don't know much about, I know *something* that lets me evaluate the articles. Do you think that the bot should place this on all deadend pages? --Alvestrand 00:24, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At least for now, no. Once this template gets to a reasonable quality, I may consider asking for opinions on the DEP talk page, and if its liked I will move into the template namespace and put forward a BRFA to get approval. For now, i'm just trying to build a good template. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 00:49, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I also added another line regarding wikify, i'm almost completely certain my wording is horrible, so could someone else better at wording tidy it up? Thanks! Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 00:51, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good to me. There was a discussion a while back about adding a tag / category to the DEPages, and not much consensus was reached. I've come to think lately that adding a template / category to the pages with a bot would be a good idea -- we've lost some active editors lately, and if tagging the pages can help draw others in to get them done, so much the better.--Kathy A. 12:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  General Discussion 

message: Can I please get a vote on whether or not this should be added to DEP pages? It would help attract more editors, and provide a better method of keeping track. (using a category, which I am going to be adding soon).
:clarification: do you mean "should this be added automatically using a bot to the DEP pages?" --Alvestrand 05:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This discussion is for the template itself. Whether a bot should do it is something I will discuss later. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 03:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a reply to this, its ideally for attracting people to it and letting people know they can fix it. At the moment there are not many people doing this, and it isn't that difficult (yes you can argue with that, but normally no) to fix a dead end page. Plus it also means we have a large category with it all in it, so we can better keep track of the total count. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 03:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should this be used 

message: * Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 09:07, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Support 

message: * We must certainly have something like this. I can't believe it didn't exist before. I find the proposed text satisfactory. Magioladitis 09:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a reply to this, its ideally for attracting people to it and letting people know they can fix it. At the moment there are not many people doing this, and it isn't that difficult (yes you can argue with that, but normally no) to fix a dead end page. Plus it also means we have a large category with it all in it, so we can better keep track of the total count. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 03:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments 

message: I'm putting forward a BRFA to get my bot to add this template to dead end pages. If anyone has any objections, please say so on that page. (Transcluded onto WP:BRFA) Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 00:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Approved, and now live. This template is on approx 2000 pages. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 07:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bot 

message: I do most of my DEP work with AWB, and then once or twice a week use my regular browser to see what items on the list can be removed. When I fix a DEP that has this template in it, it seems like I should remove the tag. Do I also need to immediately jump into a browser to remove it from the DEP list (to avoid having the bot place a new tag on it), or is the bot smart enough to see that links have been added? Thanks! --Kathy A. 17:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: I removed the line saying to add other tags such as "wikify" to deadend articles.  Experienced DEP workers know that almost all DEPs need cleanup/wikify, so I'd prefer to avoid template creep. Shalom Hello 15:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed a line

message: What's the difference beetween  and ? Kubek15 (Sign!) (Contribs) (UBX) 10:22, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Deadend refers only to the lack of links, while wikifying also includes making the title bold, adding sections, formatting lists, etc. If an article is fully wikified, it wouldn't be a deadend. So why have both templates? Two reasons. If the article is otherwise wikified and only lacks links, deadend is more specific. Also, the deadend template includes a link to Nickj's tool for adding links, so having both the wikify and deadend templates on an article can be helpful.--Fabrictramp (talk) 15:39, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's the difference? 

message: There is a discussion here on the subject of merging two templates that have nearly identical goals but wildly varying levels of quality in their doc pages, their category assignments, etc. I believe the change to be a non-controversial one, but I'm not bringing in a  just yet/might as well give it a day and see if anyone sees a reason I haven't predicted to block a merge. Thanks! MrZaiustalk 02:13, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have changed the  to  as Template:Deadend is not fully protected. --Lightsup55 ( T | C ) 23:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Weird - I'm so used to every template worth bothering with having full protection enabled by paranoid Twinkle-using admins. Thanks, MrZaiustalk 02:04, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

text: I did spot one - The former  didn't allow for article/section flagging, but it did allow for a random topic to be specified. I'll try and add that back in tomorrow, but if someone can beat me to it, it'd be much appreciated. Just need to take any argument other than "article" "section" or "date*" and print it in text like "links concerning X." MrZaiustalk 05:15, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Nevermind - Flipped through the first hundred or so and didn't see any evidence at all of that argument's use. MrZaiustalk 17:21, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed unification of {{tl|deadend}} and {{tl|internal links}}

message: Please replace the code in this template with the new code found in Template:Nuevointernallinks, replacing any mention of "nuevointernallinks" with "Deadend" - This should be shortly followed by completion of the editprotected request at Template talk:Internal links. I will then finalize this project by replacing the /doc text at this template with updated text based loosely upon the much more detailed text at Internal links but incorporating a number of minor fixes and an acknowledgement of the udpate to allow for date based tags inherited from Deadend. MrZaiustalk 13:47, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have changed the  to  as Template:Deadend is not fully protected. --Lightsup55 ( T | C ) 23:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Weird - I'm so used to every template worth bothering with having full protection enabled by paranoid Twinkle-using admins. Thanks, MrZaiustalk 02:04, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

text: I did spot one - The former  didn't allow for article/section flagging, but it did allow for a random topic to be specified. I'll try and add that back in tomorrow, but if someone can beat me to it, it'd be much appreciated. Just need to take any argument other than "article" "section" or "date*" and print it in text like "links concerning X." MrZaiustalk 05:15, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Nevermind - Flipped through the first hundred or so and didn't see any evidence at all of that argument's use. MrZaiustalk 17:21, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Seeing no objections

message: Why the sudden template rename?  (Deadend -> dead end)   Don't most uses use the former name, and a lot of documentation to change.  Seems like would be worth a little explanation/discussion.  Thanks. Zodon (talk) 07:14, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say revert but keep "Dead end" as an template redirect. There are at least three already pointing here - One more won't hurt, if the initiator of the move wants to use it with a space. That would have seemed far more appropriate than the move. MrZaiustalk 07:32, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why the rename 

message: Should the article have 3 or more links to mainspace or it should it depend on its size? -- Magioladitis (talk) 23:43, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't personally remove this tag unless there are at least three blue links, but I can see the argument that a deadend by definition is an article with no blue links, and we should be wary of instruction creep and unnecessary/illogical rules. If we define any minimum greater than one blue link we risk telling people they shouldn't remove this tag from an article that isn't a deadend because it is almost a deadend. Also there are some stubs where it is hard to add more than one or two worthwhile links, so a set minimum risks encouraging overlinking. ϢereSpielChequers 13:15, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many links are needed to remove this template? 

message: This message is being sent to inform you of a community discussion regarding a bot proposal. The bot would automatically tag new articles with matinence tags, such as this template. More details can be found at the proposal. Thank you,  Ⓢock  16:53, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion about new tagging bot 

message: Do you think it would be OK to form a rule: "Remove this template is page has more than 4 wikilinks"? this would help AWB to work with it. -- Magioladitis (talk) 18:53, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Magioladitis - anything that gets us closer to consensus would be great!  GoingBatty (talk) 02:37, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

text: Can we find some data about the number of wikilinks in Good and featured articles?  Removing if the page has more than 4 wikilinks wouldn't work at all.  I think removing the dead end tag should be a very subjective thing.  If AWB is going to remove the tag, it should attempt to overshoot.  The standard for removing the tag should be much higher than the standard for adding. Ryan Vesey 14:25, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

text: Good point, although, I've disagreed with those numbers since I learned of AWB.  I'd prefer AWB doesn't remove , at least until a study of some sort is done.  At a minimum, can we set the removal bar high?  < 5 wikilinks or the number of wikilinks is smaller than 5% of the articles size?  That would average one wikilink every 20 words.  The current featured article averages 20 words per sentence, so that number certainly isn't too high (one wikilink per sentence).  Anything less, I feel a human eye should look at it. Ryan Vesey 20:03, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a clarification: Removal by AWB is done when > 3 wikilinks AND number of wikilinks is greater than 0.25% of article's size. -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:33, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, but the and is really an or whichever is greater.  If the greater one is true the smaller one will be. Ryan Vesey 21:35, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes this is true. Which number do you think we should change? Change 3 with 5 (for removing only) or something else? -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:43, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Autotagging/autountagging with AWB

message: Please check the discussion in Template_talk:Wikify#Wikify_vs_Dead_end. -- Magioladitis (talk) 13:13, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikify is now deprecated. If we need more wikilinks then the correct tag is the "Dead end". -- Magioladitis (talk) 14:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikify vs Dead end 

message: In days of yore, this template, , was only used on pages with no internal links, hence the name – such pages are dead ends because there's no way out except to go back the way you came in. Articles which weren't dead ends but could still use some more wikilinks were tagged with Template:Internal links. The two templates were merged in 2009, but I'm proposing to un-merge them.
Regardless of what the template text and the documentation say, I've only ever seen  used on pages with zero internal links. And that's not necessarily because people aren't reading the documentation; I've read it, and I'd still be reluctant to use the template on a page with several wikilinks. It would just seem counter-intuitive. "Dead end", to me (and I'm clearly not alone in this), means "no internal links", and that's how the term is used elsewhere on Wikipedia. This problem could be solved by simply re-naming the template, and that is initially what I was going to propose, but I think it probably would be useful to have two distinct categories for "articles with no links" and "articles that need more links". The former, I would hazard, are more of a problem than the latter.  
So what I'm proposing is this.  should be reserved for articles with no internal links.  should be re-created, to be used in articles with some internal links, but not enough. Any thoughts? DoctorKubla (talk) 07:05, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: As a side-note, this would fix all the issues with AWB auto-tagging.  could be added and removed by bots, while  would be a matter for human editorial judgement. DoctorKubla (talk) 07:12, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, we should also create a  which could redirect to Internal links. Ryan Vesey 11:52, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

text: Given the consensus, DoctorKubla, I see no reason why you should not recreate  as soon as possible. Guoguo12 (Talk)  16:16, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, since there's no opposition (and a bit more consensus here), I've boldly created Template:Underlinked – there was a concern expressed that  was too ambiguous. I'll even more boldly change the wording of this template, then see if I can put together some documentation for the new one. I've never done this before, so apologies if I leave a horrible mess in my wake. DoctorKubla (talk) 07:07, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to re-create [[Template:Internal links]] 

message: :Category:Articles that need to be wikified is, as I understand it, a holding category for pages tagged with the now-deprecated . It can be removed from this template, right? Guoguo12 (Talk)  16:23, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah go ahead, we already have the more specific . Ryan Vesey 17:13, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  (). Guoguo12 (Talk)  16:19, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Articles that need to be wikified]] 

message: I was thinking of making a slight but significant amendment to the documentation. Where it currently reads:
:This tag should only be added to pages with no internal links.
I'd like to change it to:
:This tag should only be added to articles which have no internal links within the body of the article.
With a footnote that says:
:Links within infoboxes, hatnotes, "See also" sections and Reference sections do not disqualify an article from dead-end status.
Could be worded better, perhaps, but you get the idea. Am I right in thinking that this is how "dead end" is usually interpreted? DoctorKubla (talk) 08:29, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I support the motion :) benzband (talk) 12:40, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I guess we can call that a consensus. I'll make the changes. DoctorKubla (talk) 16:36, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: What's the consensus on wikilinks in image captions?  Thanks!  GoingBatty (talk) 03:31, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say image captions shouldn't be taken into consideration either. I'll add an "etc." to the footnote to broaden the field a bit. DoctorKubla (talk) 09:00, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

text: Just to note, though: The reason I didn't create an exhaustive list (and the reason I left out "See also" sections), is that I didn't want to create a condition which AWB and related bots couldn't meet. I've got no idea what kind of thing is technologically feasible; if identifying links in image captions is too much of a hassle, I don't suppose it matters all that much. DoctorKubla (talk) 09:06, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

text: Agreed that there's an issue because AWB hasn't been changed to match the new rules here.  For example, Addbot seems to be following the new rules, where as my AWB-based BattyBot is following the old rules.  They have been battling on certain articles, such as Beni-Chougrane (where the only wikilink is in an image caption) and In vitro recombination (where the only wikilink is within ).  GoingBatty (talk) 15:47, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

text: Couldn't AWB be set to only tag pages with no wikilinks whatsoever? Or is it already? benzband (talk) 15:54, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: AWB is already coded so that it only tags pages with no wikilinks.  However, it is also coded so that it removes the tag if there are wikilinks anywhere, which is where the battling has been occurring.  GoingBatty (talk) 16:06, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, then we should disable untagging. -- Magioladitis (talk) 16:10, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

text: (Five months on) Unfortunately the current AWB "meets the conditions" by not removing any dead end tags at all (February code change). I guess that was the simplest way to ensure that AWB didn't make any invalid removals. Perhaps time for another discussion? -- John of Reading (talk) 16:30, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, alright. Clearly out of my depth with this techie stuff; I didn't realise my amendment would cause so much trouble. But since it's proving to be such an impediment to AWB's functionality, I'll remove the offending text from the documentation. Like I said, it's not a big deal. DoctorKubla (talk) 16:59, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Small change to the definition of "dead end"