Talk:History of the Assyrians

message: in the second paragraph of the article it says "historically speaking assyrians originated from abraham's grandson" i dont know if that is correct or not, but i do know that assyrians originated from Noah's son Shem long before abraham ever existed. maybe you guys know something that i dont, but i think that should be mentioned. thx.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.192.37.22 (talk) 23:32, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: believe or not the article is right. just google it--Rafy talk 00:41, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  biblical innacuracy 

message: Cquan, I noticed you proposed to merge this page. Here are a couple things you might want to note:
1. I created this page yesterday, and we will be expanding it within the next two weeks.
2. The Assyrian people page is starting to become flooded, biased, and unorganized. 
3. This page, History of the Assyrian people, will deal strictly with the different periods in their history, with a focus on the people - that includes more of an emphasis on their origins, language, as well as the development of their culture, political issues, and more.
I hope that explains what we wish to do with this page. --Šarukinu 14:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see that the main article is getting a tad long...not overly so, but it could easily get there soon. I would recommend that you actually copy the entire history section over into this article then and leave the "stub" on the Assyrian people article with a main article link to this article. Otherwise this looks redundant. -Cquan (talk, AMA Desk) 17:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What are the issues with the neutrality of this article? It's still Start-class, and all it contains is objective information. I agree with the lack of sources, but we are in the process of gathering the appropriate sources and information for this article. Regardless, the article doesn't contain anything that suggests POV - unless for some reason you think hardship and persecution is entirely subjective. Oh, by the way, your suggestion is a good idea, Cquan. I'm going to see what we can take from the history section in Assyrian people and perhaps we can do a "switch" as you suggested.--Šarukinu 02:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge 

message: To anybody who wishes to contribute to this page:
I would like to expand this article to include numerous sections and topics, including religious history, political history, ancient history (which would incorporate the Akkadian period), and modern history (AD era). This article is still in a rough state, and is in need of much revision and, like I said before, expansion. 
Furthermore, there absolutely cannot be any bias in this article, because too often do we see people spread their political opinions in material about the Assyrian people. So we will have none of that here - I'm going to pay close attention to the choice of words used. This will be an objective article to offer the world unbiased, untainted, and valid information about the history of the Assyrian people, covering both the ancient and modern periods.
Due to the huge disagreement over the Assyrian identity, I feel it maybe a good idea to include a section about the debate with arguments from both sides of the issue, and then let people decide for themselves whether or not to discount the Assyrian identity. What I'm aiming for with this is something similar to the page about the BC/AD vs BCE/CE notation.
Feel free to provide your input, but please steer away from bias - for once let's offer information free of flowery words and biased views.
Šarukinu 22:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your proposals and if I have time (which I may not) will be happy to lend some assistance with the religious history. If it gets detailed enough we could start an article on religious, political and other aspects on their histories.Tourskin 23:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If possible, I would like to include all aspects of the history of the Assyrians in this one article, which is the main reason behind its creation. --Šarukinu 13:08, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expansion of this Article 

message: Just as a note, the article on Empire calls the Egyptian state the first empire when they invaded and incorporated another state. It also calls Sargon's Akkadian state an early example of an empire. This should probably be discussed on both articles for consistency and factual accuracy. Cquan (after the beep...) 01:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the heads-up, Cquan. However that depends on the definition of empire. That article uses the term very loosely, even referring to nations such as Phoenicia as an empire, which of course was not the case. Furthermore, Ancient Egypt was a kingdom which exerted hegemony over Nubia and several states in the Levant, and nothing more. But the article never said Egypt was the "first empire" (even before my recent edits); it went on to mention that the Akkadian kingdom was one of the earliest examples of an empire. With Egypt, there was no real political integration or central organization, only the acquisition of tribute and resources. Again, that goes back to the definition you wish to follow. Perhaps it should be mentioned in all respective articles that the definition is disputed. --Šarukinu 18:26, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: First empire...

message: Seperate history of Syriac Christians and History of Assyrian people. They have nothing to do with eachother.--24.248.39.186 (talk) 02:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Move Page

message: I was just wondering if anyone has any information about the Assyrian involvement in the Civil War. I have heard of accounts where the Assyrians went to Lebanon to fight with the Christian Militias. Does anyone have any sources backing this up? Malik Danno (talk) 20:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lebanese Civil War 

message: :The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the move request was moved -- Aervanath (talk) 05:59, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Support - The page was moved by user dab with no discussion. This was the equivence of moving the History of Armenia to History of Armenia/Haystan/Urartu. Title should be with the most common name in the English language. Please see my comments above this section after dab moved the pages with all these slashes. Iraqi (talk) 16:21, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
there is no consensus for this move. this is a fragile compromise which evolved over more than a year, and cannot be overturned by two (!) support votes. See Talk:Assyrian_people#properly_formatted_opinion_poll_on_article_title. As long as there isn't a solid consensus of bona fide editors in support of the "parent" move, kindly avoid such attempts of moving around other articles without anyone noticing.  --dab (𒁳) 06:06, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

text: When the Assyrian people page was finally agreed apon to be moved back to its original name, all other pages that you dab moved without discussion need to be moved back as well. These pages need to follow the title of the main page of the subject (Assyrian people), an arguement you previously used when you moved the page. Iraqi (talk) 22:55, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Having 2 users agree apon the move back is more then when you moved the page with no discussion what so ever. Iraqi (talk) 22:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move (third) 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Support - The page was moved by user dab with no discussion. This was the equivence of moving the History of Armenia to History of Armenia/Haystan/Urartu. Title should be with the most common name in the English language. Please see my comments above this section after dab moved the pages with all these slashes. Iraqi (talk) 16:21, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div>
there is no consensus for this move. this is a fragile compromise which evolved over more than a year, and cannot be overturned by two (!) support votes. See Talk:Assyrian_people#properly_formatted_opinion_poll_on_article_title. As long as there isn't a solid consensus of bona fide editors in support of the "parent" move, kindly avoid such attempts of moving around other articles without anyone noticing.  --dab (𒁳) 06:06, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

text: When the Assyrian people page was finally agreed apon to be moved back to its original name, all other pages that you dab moved without discussion need to be moved back as well. These pages need to follow the title of the main page of the subject (Assyrian people), an arguement you previously used when you moved the page. Iraqi (talk) 22:55, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Having 2 users agree apon the move back is more then when you moved the page with no discussion what so ever. Iraqi (talk) 22:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

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thread_title: File:Assyrian autonomy map 2003.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :History of the Assyrian people's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "EI":
From Ctesiphon: 
From Asōristān: 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 12:51, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:History of the Assyrian people]] 

message: I agree with previous comments that this article presents an anachronistic and oversimplistic view of Assyrian history. Even the word Assyrian is anachronistic and misleading. Assyrian topics in general on WP can't seem to make up their minds about Assyrians. On the one hand, by the fact that they include Arameans (an ethnic identity which traces its history to Aram) implies that "assyrian" basically means "christian aramaic speaking people in the middle east". Well, to be specific it calls them:
Um, that's nonsense. Newsflash, most of the middle east spoke Aramaic and Aramaic influence dominated the region until the Arab conquest. Yet, Assyrian topics would have you believe that all of the Aramaic speaking peoples (which I agree are generally indigenous peoples who are not ethnically Arab) came out of Assyria proper and the neo-Assyrian Empire. Also, how could an ethnic group who is indigenous to Ninevah/Assyria also be indigenous in Israel? There are pre-Arab peoples who are traditionally Christian and Aramaic speaking living all over the Middle East, but most are not actually Assyrian by the standard of "native to Assyria". Therefore, the standard "assyria-akkad-neo-assyria" continuity applies to few (if any) of them. So basically, Assyrian is a bullshit term the way we use it, and it foists an identity onto millions of people who don't identify with Assyria at all in favor of the minority identity of self-identified Assyrians. 
Next point. Okay, if we were to define Assyrians as people with roots in Assyria (which is the only reasonable definition), we still need to distinguish between the land and the people(s). The Assyrian people did not begin with Assur, which was most likely a Sumerian city in its first centuries, rather, the Assyrian nation grew out of worship of Ashur, which the city of assur is named for. Greek history handles the distinction between the land of Greece, the Greek-speaking peoples, and the Greek ethnos quite well. 
And see the key difference between these two templates?
"History of Assyrian people" it is not. 
Lastly there is no clear continuity between the ancient Assyrians and contemporary Assyrians, period. Are contemporary Assyrians indigenous to Assyria? Yes, genetic evidence indicates that, and I'm not one of those people who denies that or calls Assyrians Arabs. But being indigenous to Assyria doesn't mean they are related to the ancient Assyrians. They have barely anything Assyrian in their culture, and this can be attributed to neo-Assyrian influence rather than direct Ancient Assyrian descent. Assyrian identity is quite recent, and largely inspired by developments in Assyriology. Compare that to Jews who have maintained a tradition of continuity for their entire existence. I'm not saying the Assyrian people are a recent people, but they are not Akkadians.  Now is where I ping people who raised this concern before and others who defended it.       --Monochrome_Monitor 03:14, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Monochrome_Monitor, I share your concern, and I agree there needs to be a better consistency on Assyrian related page. I don't know where there is any indication on wikipedia saying Aram or Aramean related people [or any other ancient people from Mesopotamia] are Assyrian. If there is such text, then it needs to be removed.  However, I strongly disagree with a few other points you make "they have barely anything Assyrian in their culture" [if language, clothes, food, a modern religion influenced by ancient Assyrian traditions, and celebrations are not enough, then I guess no one in this world has any continuity to their ancient past.] Chaldean (talk) 09:04, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

text: Then let's delete arameans in the template. What are we waiting for? Regarding your comments about our language, clothing and religion, Well I thought you were an academic who was interested in the topic, instead you seem to be more interested in insulting us as a nation. No point in continuing this conversation. Yes, my great grandparents converted to Chaldean Catholism after being forced by the French forces in Urmia. One's religion conversion doesn't change one's ethnicity of course. Have a good day.  Chaldean (talk) 12:36, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: An academic? I'm a freshman in college interested in a myriad of subjects. I'm sorry for insulting you, I did not mean to. I don't deny you're a nation and I respect the culture of your nation, what bothers me is when mythical origins are attributed to it for nationalistic reasons. If you do have reliable sources indicating I'm wrong I will gladly read them.--Monochrome_Monitor 20:47, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sorry, reopening discussion 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: moved. Sensible rationale and seeing no opposition (closed by non-admin page mover) Megan B.... It’s all coming to me till the end of time 19:57, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: History of the Assyrian people →  I am proposing that this be moved to "History of the Assyrians" for 5 reasons:
* Per WP:CONCISE: "History of the Assyrians" is shorter but carries the same meaning
* This article serves as an historical overview over both ancient Assyria and the Assyrian people after the ancient empire's fall. Though I substantially expanded the article just two hours ago, the article has covered both ancient Assyria and the later Assyrian people since as far back as records go (2007). "Assyrians" inherently seems to me like it encompasses both better.
* The corresponding category is already called History of the Assyrians and the term already redirects here
* Numerous other similar articles use this format, i.e. History of the Kurds, History of the Basques, History of the Cossacks
* Consistency (WP:CONSISTENT) with related articles - e.g. Assyrian cuisine (not "Cuisine of the Assyrian people"), Assyrian culture (not "Culture of the Assyrian people"), List of Assyrian settlements (not "Settlements with Assyrian people", List of Assyrian tribes (not "Tribes of the Assyrian people") etc. etc.
A quick comment: Both the scholarly community and Wikipedia itself appear to have taken a pretty firm stance for Assyrian continuity, which should be apparent by how this article is written, but if anyone hypothetically wants to argue that "Assyrians" is POV I'd remind you that the consensus (just look at how related articles are titled) seems pretty clear that we're sticking with that term. "Assyrians" is also no more POV than "Assyrian people". Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:05, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

text: This is a contested technical request (permalink). McMatter (talk)/(contrib) 00:58, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 29 January 2022