Talk:Rationalization (psychology)

message: I think the current revision  pays excessive attention to examples, especially the example of an apostate, and not enough attention to scholarly work on the general form of the mental process of rationalization. Examples should always be used to support the precise explanation, not to serve as one. ⟳ausa کui × 16:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Revision

message: i feel uneasy about your renaming of Rationalization (psychology) to Rationalization (fallacy). You are choosing to put more emphasis on the fact that rationalization is a fallacy rather than it being an important psychological defense mechanism - yet it appears nowhere on the fallacy template Template:Informal Fallacy on the page. In fact the common everyday expression used for rationalization is "making excuses" not "rationalization" anyway so maybe the fallacy name should be "making excuses". I also cant see Rationalization  listed in the fallacy articles.--Penbat (talk) 12:54, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That rationalization is a logical fallacy is the fundamental understanding. There may be several theories on its nature including psychological theories. To say that rationalization is primarily a psychological phenomenon is a bit of a presumption. I wouldn't say it's POV exactly, however, to avoid that type of issue, it is best to house it within the most general field of study of the topic --logic. That there are psychological aspects of the topic should be in the article, however it is primarily a critical thinking topic.Greg Bard (talk) 19:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Rationalisation is one of the most important psychological defense mechanisms and has a pedigree going all the way back 100 years to Freud - it is a fundamental cornerstone of psychology. You must be kidding to suggest that the study of rationalisation as a fallacy is more important and fundamental than that. And when exactly was the first identification of rationalisation as a fallacy and by whom ? I still cant see it mentioned in any Wiki fallacy articles. In google "rationalization fallacy" gives 372 hits and "rationalization defense mechanism" gives 8,710 hits. Also in google "fallacy rationalization" gives 118 hits and "defense mechanism rationalization" gives 5,650 hits.--Penbat (talk) 20:16, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

text: I cannot speak to the popularity of webhits etcetera, only academic disciplines and subject matter, etc. However, in principle, a "rationalization" is always a fallacy and only sometimes a social phenomenon such as a "defense mechanism". You are correct about the content, in that I think it needs more development in its capacity as a fallacy... and so do the fallacy articles. I'm not kidding when I claim that it is more "fundamentally" a fallacy. It should be no surprise too, because philosophy and logic are like that. The idea is to identify the fundamentals. When you are talking about a defense mechanism, that brings along with it a lot of assumptions (two people in conflict, psychological theory, etcetera). Whe you say a rationalization is a fallacy, that's strictly ontological categorization. That is as fundamental as it gets. Be well, Greg Bard (talk) 23:16, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that it is a fallacy is "baked into" its definition as a defense mechanism: "Rationalization - Where a person convinces him or herself that no wrong was done and that all is or was all right through faulty and false reasoning. An indicator of this defence mechanism can be seen socially as the formulation of convenient excuses - "making excuses"." I think your arguments are baloney and it was highly presumptuous of you to rename this article without any prior discussion.--Penbat (talk) 17:37, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Psychology and Logic, one might argue, are two sides of the same coin.  Just saying that is one way to look at it.  It is difficult to favor one over the other.  However, by wikipedia policy, Greg, you have not met the burden of proof as of yet.  There are currently no sources pointing to the term being used in the context of fallacies.  And even if there are, scholarly search methods such as Scirus will turn up far more sources for the defense mechanism than the fallacy by a ratio of 3 to 1.Legitimus (talk) 02:33, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would suggest Rationalization (behaviour). /Yvwv (talk) 22:03, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute regarding the renaming of "Rationalization (psychology)" as "Rationalization (fallacy)" 

message: I believe that the current example of the smoker using his parents as examples of how smoking is not unhealthy is (or may be) contradictory to the definition of rationalization in the article. The article says that a rationalization is something used to defend an action "that was originally arrived at through a different mental process". However, there is no specific evidence in the example given that the smoker was once worried that smoking was unhealthy but did it anyway, or anything along those lines. It may be that he actually did begin smoking with this justification in mind. Even if it is a fallacious argument, that does not mean that it was not either his original mental process or part of the process.
--Mr Bucket (talk) 16:34, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think i agree with you but strangely the cited source for this example sounds authoritative.--Penbat (talk) 16:48, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. From my perspective it is quite believable that psychology, like any method of attempting to generalize particularities, has some contradictory ideas. That does not somehow "invalidate" rationalization as a concept, nor mean that it should be defined in a way that eliminates the contradictions. So I don't think any kind of edit is needed.--Mr Bucket (talk) 07:20, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: IMHO the everyday expression "making excuses" sums up rationalisation prety well and a more technical explanation will be lost on many people anyway. --Penbat (talk) 11:10, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't feel that it does sum it up because making excuses is conscious while rationalization is not. People have no idea they are rationalizing a decision that they made for some other reason. E.g. Someone steals from a supermarket and they tell themselves it's okay because the supermarket is owned by a big faceless company. They have done something which is in direct conflict with their own morals but they make a rationalization to tell themselves that it wasn't. The brain has the following problem to solve: "Good people don't steal. I am a good person. I stole." It has to resolve this conflict in some way. It does this unconsciously by changing something. It can either say "Good people steal", "I am not a good person" or "I didn't steal". It always chooses the easiest option. In this case it chooses something like "I didn't really steal".  The person is completely unaware of why they made this decision, they honestly believe that the supermarket is evil. People also do this if they steal from or hurt another person, they imagine that that person wanted to steal from them or hurt them in order to justify it, again it's completely unconscious, they don't say "I'm going to tell myself this person would have done the same to me because that way I won't have to feel bad"
If you make an excuse you say "I'm going to say this so people will forgive me for what I did". It's conscious in my opinion. 
There is no way that someone can smoke without knowing that it is unhealthy. I think it is a very good example. When you start smoking you know. Even if you started in the 20s, you know by  now. Yet you keep smoking? Why is this? Many people rationalize it without realizing that they are actually being irrational just because it's easier.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.200.185.216 (talk) 13:45, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current Rationalization Example 

message: The entire article has a completly distored meaning of what rationalisation is. An unsound assumption is a completly seperate concept to what it means to rationalise (make rational); which is the process of using deduction on a set of premises to come to a logical conclusion. The phenomina the article seems to be trying to discribe is called confirmation bias.
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/rationalize#m_en_gb0688140.007Tyraz (talk) 04:12, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Distorted Meaning 

message: isn't an rationalization simply and explanation to something? what makes and explanation a rationalization or not?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.96.111.164 (talk) 19:05, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi 177.96.111.164! A rationalization is not really true. For instance, when I didn't get the job I had applied for, I say: "Well, I didn't want it anyway." Because I don't want to admit that I am dissappointed. (However, if I say: "Someone else was better than me" - that is not a rationalization but just an explanation.) Lova Falk talk 19:44, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  explanation 

message: Can't understand the last sentence of the intro. Jacobisq (talk) 09:46, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro

message: This pages just poorly mashes the definition of "Making excuses" and "Rationalizing your actions". They are not synonyms. You make excuses for running a red light or failing a math test. You rationalize killing people who were threats to your life or attacking a bully. 2604:2000:1107:8A76:4A:E8C7:6854:F0C2 (talk) 18:54, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  This page is wrong 

message: I have removed the link to Splitting (psychology) which is about the defence mechanism, as the context in which "to split" is being used on this page is in reference to the separation of thoughts and feelings. The Splitting (psychology) page is about the splitting of relational objects into good and bad part objects (and other very similar processes, when what is being split is not a relational object) which is a completely different concept: the splitting defence mechanism is psychological terminology, but on this page, "to split" is used with a more basic dictionary definition. Anditres (talk) 12:20, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Erroneous link to splitting (psychology) removed