Talk:Sial (tribe)

message: Here are some sources that can be used on this page:
Google books. ←Spidern→ 14:54, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources to use 

message: User  221.120.250.82 edited the article to ask a question (he appears to be a novice user). I've moved his question here as the Talk page is naturally the better place for discussion.  —RP88 08:02, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Please Tell some one tell me the sial is Baloch are punjabi according to record Rind sial is baloch reply is requested please -- 221.120.250.82 19:02, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

text: If you'd like to rephrase that politely then I'll respond properly. I think you'd benefit from reading WP:NPOV and WP:RS before replying but I also think that there is room for compromise here if you do not go around throwing insults at people. I'll certainly look into it, although Atlantic Publishers do produce quite a lot of rubbish for every diamond. .- Sitush (talk) 02:27, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

text: I am afraid that your personal knowledge and that of your grandmother etc count for nothing here. Our articles need to be verifiable using reliable sources and neither you, her or me are considered to be reliable. There is a common agreement that we cannot use most books based around ethnography that were published during the British Raj era because they got it wrong far too often, mainly because they used discredited methods such as scientific racism and because they completely misunderstood how the caste system works. You'll note that the article does mention Denzil Ibbetson but it does so by using a much more modern source that discusses him - that's ok. - Sitush (talk) 16:40, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

text: I can only see a snippet view of your first recently mentioned source (Archaeological Survey of India). It was written in 1875 and even the snippet view is using words such as "claimed" for the Rajput stuff and is clearly in a section that is discussing origins of some artefact. Our article already says that such claims to titles went on and were connected with status, and it already says that the Syals were in control of Jhang etc. Beyond that, we'd need a better source than the ASI. I'll look at your other three links in due course. - Sitush ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]) 14:02, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Your second source is Steedman from 1882 - it is available at archive.org and I'd already looked at it. As with your third source - Subash Chander Sharma, from the early 20C - it adds nothing of certainty and has been superseded by more modern work. Sharma, btw, seems to be relying on the Raj census reports and both he and Steedman are relying on the usual uncritical acceptance of caste stories. I really do not see where they are adding anything of real substance and, in any event, we simply do not like to use such old stuff unless it is supported by more modern sources. - Sitush (talk) 14:09, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Your last source is a book about Sufi poets. Again, I can only see it in snippet view and, again, it is referring to the Syals in Jhang and their claim to be Rajputs. Already dealt with. - Sitush (talk) 14:11, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

text: I will indeed check the sources but I'm not going to rely on other articles on Wikipedia - we never do. - Sitush (talk) 14:42, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Bayly does not say that Syals were Rajputs - our article currently summarises what she does say. Mazumder's footnote on p. 105 is referring to the 1925 classification list and is ambiguous - is he really saying that the Syals are Rajputs or is he saying that they were seen as such at the time? I don't have a problem with saying something along the lines of "the admninistrators of the British Raj classified the Syals as Rajputs from time to time" if we can find unambiguous sources. - Sitush (talk) 14:48, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

text: I apologise for the delay. As a general rule, we do not consider British Raj ethnographies to be reliable sources. There are various reasons for this, not least of which is their tendency to invoke the theories of scientific racism that are now completely discredited. We prefer to use modern sources such as - surprise, surprise - Susan Bayly. That's just the way it is here, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 14:14, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:   Question from [[Special:Contributions/221.120.250.82 | 221.120.250.82]] 

message: Syal caste is found among Khatris, Jats and Rajputs.
As per biography of Meera Syal (known writer), She is a khatri (multiple links are available at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meera_Syal).  
If you see page no 51 of following book, you may find Sialkot name (name of place) was derived from Sial Jat tribe. Rose HA (1997) A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province. Atlantic Publishers & Distributors (P) Limited, (http://books.google.co.in/books?id=-aw3hRAX_DgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=syal+caste+rajput&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wXaCVPfPN5O4uAStn4DADg&ved=0CCEQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=sial&f=false)
Further, Syal are described as Jats in many recent books. like on page no 411 of this book:- Sekhon SS, Gill TS (2005) Sant Singh Sekhon: Selected Writings. (ISBN: 8126019999, 9788126019991) Sahitya Akademi  http://books.google.co.in/books?id=SoNXuXIkfS4C&pg=PA411&dq=syal+khatri&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Rn6CVNGAFMeVuASf2YLABA&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=syal%20khatri&f=false
And then if you see page no 417 of the following book. You may find description of Sial as Rajput caste as well.  Rose HA (1997) Glossary Of The Tribes And Castes Of The Punjab And North-west Frontier ProvinceVol. 3 Vol# 3. Atlantic Publishers & Distributors (P) Limited, http://books.google.co.in/books?id=Th3Mu-_RwjQC&pg=PA417&dq=sial+caste+rajput&hl=en&sa=X&ei=H3uCVLboLI2-uASDxoF4&ved=0CDgQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=sial%20caste%20rajput&f=false 
[WP:CONTENTDISPUTE]  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.139.128.14 (talk) 04:30, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Syal caste is found in Jats, Khatris and Rajputs. 

message: Most references refer to the old Panjab, not a single reference, describe the post 1965 Panjab (wrt Syals). Old Panjab refers to Haryana, Indian Panjab, Pakistan Panjab, part of Himachal Pradesh, Chandigarh.
It is completely unclear from the article that the Panjab here includes all these states and not the current territory of Panjab. 
It is unfortunate that wiki is suffering from the monopoly of few Editors and their cohorts who revert as per their wish.
For them, I can say, "stop flying by the seats of your own pants" and act with discussion and present the facts, the way they are, and not contaminate it with your opinion or the way you like it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.225.98.200 (talk) 19:30, 22 September 2017‎
:I agree that it might be misleading. But it shouldn't be if the correct link is used - we have articles for the Punjab region, as well as for the modern-day Indian state and Pakistani province. And we can only say what sources say. - Sitush (talk) 11:39, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert by good faith, may be not in good faith!! 

message: Since, the caste specific location is ambiguous. It should be presented as it is.
Kalyanchakra (talk) 03:34, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  No reference available for the location of Syal tribe 

message: To anyone with relevant knowledge: please verify that the following (linked) photo, is relevant:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kshatriya_siyal.jpg 89.8.147.19 (talk) 11:57, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo