Wikipedia talk:No original research/Archive 24

message: If I write a statement "The Pope has white hair" would this be original research? (assuming I could find no academic sources saying this.) 
What I'm really interested in is how obvious something has to be before you can say it, without slapping a  template on it.  Mike Young 18:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you provide a more realistic example? This one is so obvious as to be begging the question. Vassyana 18:43, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to this policy, this statement could be easily slapped with the citation needed template. Many others could easily contend that the Pope's hair is not white, but a shade of grey. If you could find any source, even the Vatican web site where it said "the white-haired Pope" or whatever, then there is at least some reference to it somewhere, and the point being made is not likely to be very contentious at that point. However, if you said in an article "The youngest Pope ever was Pope XYZ at the age of 45, and his hair was already white", and then further stated "The next youngest Pope was 15 years older with white hair" (and both of those were properly referenced), you still couln't say "All Pope's have had white hair" without that statement being properly referenced. It states a conclusion that needs it's own reference. wbfergus  Talk 18:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Agreed with wbfergus in general. WP:VER anticipates that many statements in articles will go unchallenged. If it's a significant enough issue that someone challenges it, sourcing would, in general, be needed to support the statement. Alternately, a source such as a photo might be adequate to verify such a statement. Also, there is a difference between editorial decisionmaking, original language (or original wording of the text), and original synthesis of conclusions or concepts that are not part of the sytheses or concepts already available in the sources. This concept is expressed by WP:NOR. ... Kenosis 19:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does the Pope have white hair? 

message: The absence of consensus for PSTS reflected several known problems.
One was defining the categories, and there was broad agreement that this was a problem, as well as various ad-hoc fixes. I pointed out above that many ancient histories derive from even older histories. If we interpret PSTS literally, most ancient histories are secondary sources and most scientific papers are primary sources.
Another involved primary sources, even first-party primary sources, which include their own interpretive claims. These should, of course, be used very carefully. Suppose we have one secondary source which states "all X believe Y," we have several secondary sources which state "A was an X" and we have a primary source by A which states "I believe ~Y and I do not believe Y." In this case, as I've argued before, it shouldn't be OR to state that at least one X did not believe Y. (It may be undue weight, but even then noting some instead of all would be appropriate). To my mind, second-guessing the sources by stating that A was not an X, or that A really believed Y, is much more likely to involve OR. Jacob Haller 00:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  PSTS anomalies 

message: Simply as a point of interest and definitely NOT as an argument for or against the changes that we are contemplating... I checked out the Wikipedia articles on Primary source, Secondary source and Tertiary source.  They primarily talk about the way historians use these terms... and what struck me was that the way they are defined in those aricles matched the way they are currently defined here.  This leads me to conclude that the sources section was definitely written by historians.  Those of you from other disciplines may want to edit those articles to reflect how you use the terms. Blueboar 13:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not a historian and I re-wrote the sources section based on my experiences in the social science ... and I admit that they would be improved with edits from people working in the physical and life sciences. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 14:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will also point people to the article on Source text... perhaps this will aid in our discussions? Blueboar 14:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Sure, what you are saying is (to use the above lingo) is, secondary sources can become primary sources.  For example, parts of the Hebrew Bible (much of Genesis, Kings and Chronicles, for example) were probably originally secondary sources.  But thousands of years later, the sources that they themselves were interpreting are often unavailable, and the context has changed, and now historians have the task of interpreting the Bible.  Shakespeare may have writen things that were immediately clear to his audience when he his plays were first performed in England, but today require interpretation and explanation.  I get your point, do you get mine?  If we both understand one another maybe we can work together to clearer and more cuseful language? Slrubenstein   |  Talk 17:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Do you want to go ahead and make the change to the proposed draft?  Go ahead Slrubenstein   |  Talk 17:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I think this is more than just a point of interest, it is a real problem, probably a fatal flaw, to use an article to define a policy term. It is a problem for the article, because editors are going to defend that page like they defend a policy page, which is not good for an article that may need to grow to include different perspectives as pointed out above. And it is also a problem for the policy page, because as the article changes over time, it will inadvertently change the policy description. Each page should be an expression of the consensus there, and changing one should not change the other. People have pointed out the problem with conflicting definitions in different policy pages, but taking the definitions from an article is not the solution! Dhaluza 11:29, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A point of interest 

message: We appear to agree to not use the word "source". Can we also agree to not use the words "primary" and "secondary"? People here admit that wikipedia is making up its own definition and I contend that even with a definition we make up, there is confusion and misunderstanding over the use of these words. Further, the words have no inherent meaning that makes clear what we are trying to say, as it is the use and not the material that being distinguished, and all material is primary if used as evidence of what it itself says and as secondary if used as evidence of the processes or facts that caused its existence. Whatever you wish to say about Wikipedia's OR policy, if you say it without using the words "primary" and "secondary" you will be communicating better. Please give it a try. WAS 4.250 20:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest "interpretive material" for the latter. Jacob Haller 21:21, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree--the issue is not whether the noun is source, material, or even stuff. The issue is the use of the adjectives primary and secondary are confusing when applied to those nouns, because there is no agreement on their association in different academic fields, much less general use, so how can they be used to describe how to write a general purpose encyclopedia anyone can edit? Dhaluza 11:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Primary and secondary 

message: ===Point 1===
Recent history that may have been missed is that there has been problem with exactly what the definition of primary and secondary sources actually are, especially when the language still strongly favoured secondary sources (as it did until quite recently, I don't know from when, but definitely a number of months ago). One of the reasons to remove the distinction is that there have been problems with the definition, and the distinction is not essential to identifying, describing, or prohibiting original research.
It should also be noted that, however long something has been a certain way, that age or stability does not automatically make it either good or correct. I'm sure there are articles on wikipedia with factual errors that have been stable (in terms of the error) for quite some time. The fact that a policy gets more attention is offset by the inertia in editing policy.
Problems were raised, challenged, demonstrated, established to the satisfaction of those involved at the time, some of whom were very skeptical. Asking the parties to demonstrate and establish them again begins to feel like obstructionism, although I am sure that that is not the intent. Can good faith and, perhaps, competence be assumed? The question to address then becomes whether the new suggestions provide for a correct, consensus-bearing, current-practice-describing NOR policy. If a particular proposal doesn't, then address how it doesn't specifically and help people to make it do so, without saying "I don't believe you about the problem that led to this".
Assume good faith that the editors who've worked on this aren't somehow trying to allow original research. This isn't a fight or a battle, it's a discussion to reach a consensus solution to certain problems and improve the policies that help us to write a good encyclopedia. SamBC(talk) 18:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You may be right with "so why not locate the definitions centrally and refer to them from each policy" but this steps straight into the [[WP:ATT] debate. Also this debate is touching on the other perennial should WP:RS be promoted from guideline to  policy? (it got shoved on the back burner during the ATT debate and has it been revived since?). I say this because moving sections like the one under discussion from a policy to a guideline has an affect on the perception of the importance of a section. --Philip Baird Shearer 21:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Kenosis, I must say that I strongly object to your language and choice of words. I know nothing about you or your history on here at Wikipedia, but even I know the Wikipedia behavioral guideline of Wikipedia:Assume good faith. I must state for the record that I strongly object to your statements, which several people have pointed out to as being incorrect, yet you continue to re-state them. This discussion has been going on for around a month, and somewhere around 20-30 different editors involved in it at various stages. If you would bother checking your facts first, instead of just spewing allegations, you would readily see this. You have been provided with several links and also asked to review the Archives, which obviously you have not bothered to do. So, either please stop making baseless accusations, or please refrain from further disputive posts. Thank you. wbfergus  Talk 19:08, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If we need to go over the comments I've made thus far, one by one, what they were responding to, and the responses and re-responses thereto, we shall. Now, what precisely is your objection to my "language and choice of words"? Without putting words or attributing implications that are not contained in my statements, please. ... Kenosis 19:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I will also point out that the page was not locked over this proposal... it was locked over disagreements relating to the EXISTING language.  This proposal was developed as a way to solve those disagreements (and indeed it seems to have done so) after the page was locked.  so no... that there is resistance for such significant change is NOT evidenced by the fact that the page needed to be locked.  Now, I don't think anyone is suggesting rushing off and making the change once the page is unlocked.  You are correct in stating that more community input is needed.  That is what we are currently doing. Blueboar 19:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I further reviewed the recent history, and see the distinction between COGDEN's points of advocacy, Vassyana's ideas and proposal, and the more recent new proposal developed and discussed among Bluebear, Vassyana, wbfergus and SamBC within the last two to three weeks or so. Thanks for pointing out the difference. Either way, a complete replacement of the longstanding section on Primary, secondary and tertiary sources is a significant change to a policy page. I trust that once complaints about opposition are put aside and accepted as a reasonable added participation and expansion of discussion, the discussion can continue on the substance of the proposal. ... Kenosis 19:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

text: My comment above about your comment was speciafically the part that said "developed within the past month or so by three or four users on this one talk page". Without going back over this entire I can't recollect if there were other comments by you or somebody else that were accusatory in nature or not, but I know that several comments on here in a simalr vein really got my blood boiling. We are attempting to make the policy better, easier to understand and implement across the other existing ploicies, and trying to be as above board as possible in the process. We have only reached this point with a lot of arguning, giving and taking amongst 20 or more different editors, and we are still a ways from concensus. wbfergus  Talk 19:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

text: My points above are in no way critical of the opposition, but the point is that it is opposition to the proposal, and it's newly appeared. If you read the actual points I made, they were an attempt to explain the position leading to the proposal, explore what the nature of the opposition is (as I assume that it isn't knee-jerk, assuming good faith), and seek to address it (as in work with it and develop a way forward the addresses the issues that led to the proposal whilst eliminating the reason for objection). SamBC(talk) 20:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I think summarizing a treaty is covered under the proposal... If an editor summarizes a treaty, that would be a statement of interpretation/analysis/conclusion etc. ... thus, for it not to be OR, he/she should cite to a reliable source that contains the summary and not to the treaty itself.  If the editor stuck to the source - ie quoted the exact wording in the treaty(preferred) or closely and accurately paraphrased it, then he/she could cite the treaty itself. Blueboar 23:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Novels are primary sources. According to Blueboar's reasoning, editors must not summarize novels; they must find a summary in a published review or similar secondary source. Which of course is an absurd position. --Gerry Ashton 23:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not entirely sure that that interpretation is correct, but I'm also not sure that the current policy is entirely comfortable with summarising a novel without reference to a source for the summarisation. Summarisation, especially of fiction, is notoriously subject to spin and interpretation, and that's original research. Summaries can appear, but we shouldn't be doing the research to write them. How about this as an indicator of OR - if people can disagree over it without anyone ever referring to sources, it's likely to be OR. SamBC(talk) 00:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good source-based non-original research requires skill, some understanding of the subject matter (after the research is completed), judgement, and decision making. Summarizing material is a basic skill of source-based research; just because it can be done badly does not mean source-based research can do without it. After all, we're talking about research, not monkeys and typewriters. --Gerry Ashton 00:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bear with me, I'm trying to find the right way(s) to say this. Summaries can be written that do not involve interpretation/analysis/conclusion etc, in the sense that leads to OR. They can be written in a way that does. Summaries are not "right out" under any version of the policy that's been discussed (that I'm aware of), including the current version. It takes care to write a summary that's not OR, and it also takes care to check whether a summary does introduce OR (in the form of interpretation/analysis/mongooses/etc). The PSTS nature of the source isn't actually entirely relevant to that, which is why it's been suggested that PSTS isn't a vital and inherent aspect of the NOR policy. All that said, you raise an interesting point about summaries generally, and it might be helpful for the policy to have a section (seperate to that under discussion) discussing summarisation. SamBC(talk) 00:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attempt to address the new opposition 

message: Recent history that may have been missed is that there has been problem with exactly what the definition of primary and secondary sources actually are, especially when the language still strongly favoured secondary sources (as it did until quite recently, I don't know from when, but definitely a number of months ago). One of the reasons to remove the distinction is that there have been problems with the definition, and the distinction is not essential to identifying, describing, or prohibiting original research.
It should also be noted that, however long something has been a certain way, that age or stability does not automatically make it either good or correct. I'm sure there are articles on wikipedia with factual errors that have been stable (in terms of the error) for quite some time. The fact that a policy gets more attention is offset by the inertia in editing policy.
Problems were raised, challenged, demonstrated, established to the satisfaction of those involved at the time, some of whom were very skeptical. Asking the parties to demonstrate and establish them again begins to feel like obstructionism, although I am sure that that is not the intent. Can good faith and, perhaps, competence be assumed? The question to address then becomes whether the new suggestions provide for a correct, consensus-bearing, current-practice-describing NOR policy. If a particular proposal doesn't, then address how it doesn't specifically and help people to make it do so, without saying "I don't believe you about the problem that led to this".
Assume good faith that the editors who've worked on this aren't somehow trying to allow original research. This isn't a fight or a battle, it's a discussion to reach a consensus solution to certain problems and improve the policies that help us to write a good encyclopedia. SamBC(talk) 18:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Point 1

message: It seems that a lot of the problems with the proposed removal of PSTS info aren't entirely adamant that it must be in NOR, but that it must be somewhere. Can people accept that there may be somewhere more suitable for it? The distinction between these types of sources, and between involved-party and third-party sources, and so on and so forth, touch all three of the major core policies (WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR here), so why not locate the definitions centrally and refer to them from each policy. If the reason for each policy to refer to them is a matter of guidance, rather than of rules, then why not put that guidance centrally as well? Those two suggestions are seperate - to me, the first (centralise definitions) seems straightforwardly sensible, while the latter (centralise the classification-related guidance) is a vague thought in my mind.
There is what's now a rather poor-shape essay at Wikipedia:Classification of sources that was actually created originally as a proposal for roughly this purpose. How would people feel about going back to this and working on it in concert with the proposal to change NOR? Those who've raised these objections would be more than welcome to join in and make sure that it says what needs to be said. If that's in place as a related proposal, it may well smooth the proposals here. SamBC(talk) 18:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You may be right with "so why not locate the definitions centrally and refer to them from each policy" but this steps straight into the [[WP:ATT] debate. Also this debate is touching on the other perennial should WP:RS be promoted from guideline to  policy? (it got shoved on the back burner during the ATT debate and has it been revived since?). I say this because moving sections like the one under discussion from a policy to a guideline has an affect on the perception of the importance of a section. --Philip Baird Shearer 21:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Point 2

message: The "new opposition" referred to at the top of this section is not what's "new" at the present. What's "new" here are these proposals to significantly change WP:NOR, developed within the past month or so by three or four users on this one talk page. Let's at least get that much in perspective, please. And the resistance to such significant changes is already substantially evidenced in the present fact that this project page needed to be locked. ... Kenosis 18:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Kenosis, I must say that I strongly object to your language and choice of words. I know nothing about you or your history on here at Wikipedia, but even I know the Wikipedia behavioral guideline of Wikipedia:Assume good faith. I must state for the record that I strongly object to your statements, which several people have pointed out to as being incorrect, yet you continue to re-state them. This discussion has been going on for around a month, and somewhere around 20-30 different editors involved in it at various stages. If you would bother checking your facts first, instead of just spewing allegations, you would readily see this. You have been provided with several links and also asked to review the Archives, which obviously you have not bothered to do. So, either please stop making baseless accusations, or please refrain from further disputive posts. Thank you. wbfergus  Talk 19:08, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If we need to go over the comments I've made thus far, one by one, what they were responding to, and the responses and re-responses thereto, we shall. Now, what precisely is your objection to my "language and choice of words"? Without putting words or attributing implications that are not contained in my statements, please. ... Kenosis 19:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I will also point out that the page was not locked over this proposal... it was locked over disagreements relating to the EXISTING language.  This proposal was developed as a way to solve those disagreements (and indeed it seems to have done so) after the page was locked.  so no... that there is resistance for such significant change is NOT evidenced by the fact that the page needed to be locked.  Now, I don't think anyone is suggesting rushing off and making the change once the page is unlocked.  You are correct in stating that more community input is needed.  That is what we are currently doing. Blueboar 19:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I further reviewed the recent history, and see the distinction between COGDEN's points of advocacy, Vassyana's ideas and proposal, and the more recent new proposal developed and discussed among Bluebear, Vassyana, wbfergus and SamBC within the last two to three weeks or so. Thanks for pointing out the difference. Either way, a complete replacement of the longstanding section on Primary, secondary and tertiary sources is a significant change to a policy page. I trust that once complaints about opposition are put aside and accepted as a reasonable added participation and expansion of discussion, the discussion can continue on the substance of the proposal. ... Kenosis 19:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

text: My comment above about your comment was speciafically the part that said "developed within the past month or so by three or four users on this one talk page". Without going back over this entire I can't recollect if there were other comments by you or somebody else that were accusatory in nature or not, but I know that several comments on here in a simalr vein really got my blood boiling. We are attempting to make the policy better, easier to understand and implement across the other existing ploicies, and trying to be as above board as possible in the process. We have only reached this point with a lot of arguning, giving and taking amongst 20 or more different editors, and we are still a ways from concensus. wbfergus  Talk 19:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

text: My points above are in no way critical of the opposition, but the point is that it is opposition to the proposal, and it's newly appeared. If you read the actual points I made, they were an attempt to explain the position leading to the proposal, explore what the nature of the opposition is (as I assume that it isn't knee-jerk, assuming good faith), and seek to address it (as in work with it and develop a way forward the addresses the issues that led to the proposal whilst eliminating the reason for objection). SamBC(talk) 20:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I think summarizing a treaty is covered under the proposal... If an editor summarizes a treaty, that would be a statement of interpretation/analysis/conclusion etc. ... thus, for it not to be OR, he/she should cite to a reliable source that contains the summary and not to the treaty itself.  If the editor stuck to the source - ie quoted the exact wording in the treaty(preferred) or closely and accurately paraphrased it, then he/she could cite the treaty itself. Blueboar 23:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Novels are primary sources. According to Blueboar's reasoning, editors must not summarize novels; they must find a summary in a published review or similar secondary source. Which of course is an absurd position. --Gerry Ashton 23:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not entirely sure that that interpretation is correct, but I'm also not sure that the current policy is entirely comfortable with summarising a novel without reference to a source for the summarisation. Summarisation, especially of fiction, is notoriously subject to spin and interpretation, and that's original research. Summaries can appear, but we shouldn't be doing the research to write them. How about this as an indicator of OR - if people can disagree over it without anyone ever referring to sources, it's likely to be OR. SamBC(talk) 00:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good source-based non-original research requires skill, some understanding of the subject matter (after the research is completed), judgement, and decision making. Summarizing material is a basic skill of source-based research; just because it can be done badly does not mean source-based research can do without it. After all, we're talking about research, not monkeys and typewriters. --Gerry Ashton 00:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bear with me, I'm trying to find the right way(s) to say this. Summaries can be written that do not involve interpretation/analysis/conclusion etc, in the sense that leads to OR. They can be written in a way that does. Summaries are not "right out" under any version of the policy that's been discussed (that I'm aware of), including the current version. It takes care to write a summary that's not OR, and it also takes care to check whether a summary does introduce OR (in the form of interpretation/analysis/mongooses/etc). The PSTS nature of the source isn't actually entirely relevant to that, which is why it's been suggested that PSTS isn't a vital and inherent aspect of the NOR policy. All that said, you raise an interesting point about summaries generally, and it might be helpful for the policy to have a section (seperate to that under discussion) discussing summarisation. SamBC(talk) 00:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Point 3

message: Support I think it summarizes NOR as cleanly as any of the alternatives. I hope that we can work out any remaining issues and add this to the policy by, say, the end of the year, regardless of how we handle PSTS. Jacob Haller 21:19, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure that we should pursue my proposed new section without addressing the PSTS section at the same time... unless you are suggesting adding it on top of PSTS(?)  I don't object, if that is the consensus, but it wasn't written with that intent. Blueboar 21:29, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can see value in adding it seperately at this point, and continuing the discussion of refactoring or relocating PSTS. I would prefer both refactoring and relocating, personally. SamBC(talk) 21:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. Blueboar 21:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Note: I have added a sentence about not taking facts out of context... an easy way to introduce OR with a fact statement. Blueboar 21:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I support this as a plain language explanation of NOR, but think the reference to WP:PSTS is unnecessary. Dhaluza 22:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dhaluza, could you accept that, even if it's unnecessary, it does no (substantial) harm, and therefore not oppose its inclusion? SamBC(talk) 23:40, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Right now, I would tend to support it. Maybe after I eat and sleep I may change my mind, but for now it seems a completely logical extension. It by far seems to make the point about NOR better than PSTS does, but that is still a separate issue. wbfergus  Talk 23:55, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Cogden... I also support removing the paranthetical... but not for the reason you state.  Quites simply, you have unique definitions of the terms Primary and Secondary source.  If we avoid the terms, then this does not matter... but they are unique. Blueboar 18:31, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not unique. I guess it's time to bring back my numerous citations to sources that define primary and secondary sources that way. That's what happens when you get so much activity on a page. Previous arguments and citations get swept into the archives before people see and digest them. COGDEN 22:37, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't see it as a departure...  Take a look at the example... isn't saying something like "FDR was born in Hyde Park and later became President" allowable? Are you saying that such a statement can not be made without a source? Blueboar 18:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

text: It doesn't seem to be a departure from the meaning, spirit, or intent of the policy. However, I can understand why there'd be concern about it potentially causing problems. I just don't think that people will get far trying to stretch what "obvious and non-controversial consequence" means. SamBC(talk) 18:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

text: This is nothing new. It's part of WP:V. If something is obvious or non-controversial, you don't even need a citation to a reliable source! All the above formulation says is that editors cannot include their own interpretations unless they are verifiable. That Wikipedia practice and consensus has been well established for years. COGDEN 18:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh, editors cannot include their own interpretations. They can only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge. Editors can summarise sources of fact, taking care not to introduce an interpretation and change the meaning by a selective summary. Or, as the term goes, quote mining. Any interpretation must be an accurate summary of the interpretation of a third party in a secondary source (in relation to the subject matter of the article or section). Sorry if you find that concept difficult. .. dave souza, talk 21:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What I'm saying is that if the editor cites a reliable source that agrees with an editor's interpretation, the editor has not committed original research. That is, her idea isn't new. They can't cite themselves, in any case; they have to cite a reliable source. But just because the editor came up with the idea doesn't make it bad. What's bad is that the editor was the first to come up with the idea, and/or the editor doesn't cite a verifiable source. COGDEN 22:34, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with COgden, with two minor technical clarifications. A WP editor can cite their own work if it was published in RS. Also they don't need to be the first to come up with it, they need to use WP to publish it before it appears in RS to be doing OR. Dhaluza 09:44, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

text: How about this as an alternative: "Editors cannot include their own interpretations of previously-published facts. Editors may contextualize facts in an encyclopedic way that is an obvious and non-controversial consequence of the facts" By refocusing on context rather than interpretation, we stick to what is necessary for an encyclopedia, rather than going down the slippery slope of what is not. Dhaluza 09:50, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments & concerns

message: *Agree wbfergus  Talk 11:38, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Votes to ask for adding '''Origins of the policy'''

message: Good points Wikidemo. Thanks for those. After reading them I tend to agree, but I think the brief "history in a nutshell" may still be useful to the policy, if not actually part of the policy. Maybe either a sub-page or a separate article, so the concerns you raised are alleviated? wbfergus  Talk 13:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A little looking shows that WP:NPOV has a (large) section devoted to the history of that policy however. I don't know if this will change anybody's opinion though. wbfergus  Talk 14:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: I don't know if anyone appreciates the irony of the edit war over the disputed tag at the top of the PSTS section resulting in a protect tag at the top of the page saying there is a dispute. It seems to me that this is a worse outcome, sort of a self-fulfilling (or self-defeating) prophesy. Anyway, I suggest we agree in advance that when the protect tag expires, we all follow the one revert rule to prevent escalating any future edit war. Regardless of whether you think you are right, or the other editor is wrong, once you make your change you have made your point on the record, and there is no reason to repeat it. Let someone else step up, and be patient. WP will hopefully be around for a long time, and there is no deadline. Dhaluza 00:19, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's another related irony, which is that we're having a fierce edit war by numerous editors over whether we should admit that a section is controversial. I participated in the last edit war (I think I reverted twice), but this time I only reverted once, because I could predict what was going to happen: Between each edit war-protection cycle, more people join the controversy on each side who couldn't possibly have kept up with the reams of archived arguments written on this issue, we re-hash the same arguments, and any good movements toward consensus, like that managed most recently by Blueboar, get forgotten. Then, by the time the page comes up for automatic unprotection, we're back to square one. I think the first step toward recovery is to admit we have a problem. There's fierce disagreement on the primary-secondary source model. And the sooner we admit that, the sooner we can start healing. COGDEN 00:46, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

text: If people don't realize the sheer irony of edit warring over a disputed tag, 1RR is essentially meaningless. Also, there's quite enough people involved here on both sides to make 1 revert per person worthless. How about we all agree to not edit war over a policy or be banned from this policy page for three months? That would actually have teeth, provided some admins have balls enough to enforce it. I'm a bit cynical about the dispute and some people involved at the moment, so take those comments with some grains of salt. Vassyana 02:00, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good idea, but I think we need some sort of consensus language in that section first. The current section is broken (it's controversial, which by definition makes it wrong), and nobody should be sanctioned for trying to fix it in good faith. But when we arrive at some rough consensus language, further editing at that point ought not to happen without prior discussion on the talk page. COGDEN 17:33, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: One revert rule

message: This policy would be more clear if it said what needs to be said without using the words "primary" and "secondary". - WAS 4.250 22:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I may agree with you, and invite you to start a sandbox page in which these ideas can be explored. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We already have some good proposals that describe the policy and practice without using the primary/secondary/tertiary concepts. I think we should start there. Or go back to them. With such a high volume of comments, it's easy to lose track of the arguments and the proposals. COGDEN 00:53, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Agreed. I think this is the only way toward consensus. We all agree (I think) on what the policy is. What we argue about is how to express it, and about philosophical side-issues like the meaning of "primary" and "secondary". I think we're trying to be too cute by using such high-falutin historiographic ideas as primary and secondary sources. COGDEN 00:53, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Make a proposal in a sandbox page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Jossi, I don't know what good it will do, but I am creating Wikipedia talk:No original research/1 as a sandbox page and will put the examples in it that were made on this page as examples of explaining NOR without using the words "primary" and "secondary". Please note that these examples were not written with the intent of being perfect replacements for the section in question, merely proofs of concept that such a thing makes sense. Further it seems consensus that the primary/secondary/tertiary distinction is useful to keep somewhere in Wikipedia policy space even if NOR is better off explained without it. So please, no one moan over that straw man. WAS 4.250 02:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, is the argument here that "primary" and "secondary" are too hard or too complex to be understood?  Obviously "tertiary" must be a real poser then. Good thing we don't have quarternary sources: just imagine the mental agita they might cause.  •Jim62sch• 16:58, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't know if anybody is seriously promoting the idea that the concept of tertiary sources should be part of the OR policy anymore. Maybe I'm wrong: is that still a sticking point with anybody? COGDEN 17:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Missing the point. Anyway, the T in PSTS stands for tertiary.  Are they propsed for elimination?  •Jim62sch• 20:11, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was just saying, not trying to respond to the main point. I was just thinking that I hadn't heard much on the tertiary issue for a long time, and it seems like maybe we at least have a consensus that the tertiary aspect of the historiographic OR model is not helpful. We'd call the remaining model the "PSS" model. Maybe this is one small step in the right direction toward consensus. COGDEN 21:50, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clear and simple