Talk:Aryan Brotherhood

message: Connections with the Mexican drug cartels
http://newamericamedia.org/2010/11/mexican-drug-cartels-tied-to-us-white-supremacists-1.php  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.88.138 (talk) 08:39, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The ABs are not a political organization and are not aligned with groups like Aryan Nations etc. There are Jewish members, for example. They are basically at the top of the hierarchy of the white underground prison gang network in the US - especially the California and Federal prison systems. WHy does it say in the wiki entry that they are linked with the Aryan Nations or KKK or they commit hate crimes?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.130.236.127 (talk) 19:45, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Misrepresentation of them in the wiki entry

message: In the list of references to AB in culture, the Fullmetal Alchemist movie is included.  While I haven't seen the movie and can't speak to the veracity of this, it sounds doubtful to me.  Can anyone confirm?
Creationlaw 03:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fullmetal Alchemist

message: Further research into the location and activities of the Aryan Brotherhood would improve the article.JOJO
The AB seems to have presence in many state prison systems as well as the Federal system. They are better documented in California and Texas.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdesperado5 (talk • contribs) 17:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestions

message: This article is disgracefully written and it is a complete embarassment to wikipedia that it has allowed to stand as is for so long.  It needs, to put it mildly, extreme revisions in order to make it even somewhat respectable.  I plan on working on it and I hope others will join me. Stanley011 14:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disgraceful

message: I would like to say this article certainly needed a more neutral POV edit. I am not knowledgeable in prison sociology or criminology, so I would not want to begin it. 
The prose style by the writer is certainly very passionate and makes it an easy read. But this approach makes it impossible for opponents to fact correct without vandalizing the article. 
In the spirit of Wiki I must call on both sides of the debate on this article to try to stick to a neutral POV.
Is a NPOV or POV seperation even posible here, due to the nature of the entry topic. --Pine oak 17:03, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutral POV needed

message: Does this sound like a love letter to the Aryan Brotherhood to anyone else? It sounds like it to me. me too! Natalie 16:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: General tone

message: This article seems kind of abandoned, so I'm going to work on it. Hopefully I can deal with some of the problems with the general tone. I also found some more internet sources, which should be helpful.Natalie 17:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed significant chunks of unsourced or poorly sourced information. Version before my edits can be found here: . Natalie 19:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

text: It's true that any AZ groups are offshoots, but I don't think that makes the AZ DOC any less of a reliable source of information. Natalie 23:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I fail to see how this is relevant. Natalie 17:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur.  Ford MF 17:28, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

text: That may be, but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not Court TV. The point is to give an overview of the group, not a complete account of their crimes. Besides that, Wikipedia source policy does not list web forums as reliable sources. There's no way to prove that this person writing really is who he/she says they are. I mean, I could have written that - there's no way to know. Also, PLEASE sign your posts by typing ~~~~. Natalie 14:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite

message: There is a strong tendency to avoid or hide distinctive tattoos in the Aryan Brotherhood now.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 15:22, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a reliable source that discusses this phenomenon? At Wikipedia, we can't really take anyone's word for it, so if you don't have a source then the information probably can't be included. Natalie (talk) 18:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: At one time www.adl.org/hate_symbols, but this does not work now. Try the web.archive people.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 10:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Tattoo

message: There is or was a group called Aryan Brotherhood in Bombay, India. I don't know much about it except that it was active in at least the early 20th century, and that it was a reformist organization that strove to remove caste prejudice. I have seen references to Aryan Brotherhood in community records. This Aryan Brotherhood had absolutely nothing to do with the notion "Aryan" as it is understood in European usage (where it generally carries connotations of racial superiority). In Sanskrit, "Arya" means a noble and virtuous human being. I am not entirely sure whether it has caste connotations. And the Aryan Brotherhood was an organization that worked to break down barriers that divided one caste from another and that fostered caste discrimination/atrocities. At least one means by which the Aryan Brotherhood sought to promote a more tolerant society was by organizing intercaste dinners (sharing food with someone a lower caste was taboo, and could lead to excommunication and its attendant social and financial consequences, or even murder). So the Aryan Brotherhood was, from the point of view of the caste orthodoxy, a radical organization. Such organizations, including the Prarthna Samaj and Paramhamsa Sabha, were frequented by Indian social reformers in Bombay and elsewhere in India. Many of these organizations still exist, as does caste prejudice.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.182.129.15 (talk) 00:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambiguation

message: I propose deleting rivals and allies listed for which there is no citation; without citation it just feels like an outlet for whoemver would like to beat their chest. Barring counter proposals, or fruitful discussion, before 10.00 GMT 5.Feb.09, i'll make the proposed edit. Quaeler (talk) 09:37, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good, with one caveat - perhaps you could look for citations, at least for those which seem more likely?  I'll do the same.  Their are reports of links between the AB and other prison gangs, like the Mexican Mafia and the Nazi Low Riders, as well as at least some ties to the Italian Mafia.  Similairly, there is at least a general understanding that the AB is at odds with ethnically black prison gangs, a category which include street gangs like the Crips.  So maybe hold off on deleting all of those. As a side note, I would like to see serious improvements in all of the articles on prison gangs, or at least the main five or six articles.  Cheers, ClovisPt (talk) 14:47, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a plan; i'll look for citations. Quaeler (talk) 19:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't yet been able to find citations for many of the listed groups, so I removed them.  Anyone who can find citations should kindly add them back.  Regards, ClovisPt (talk) 21:55, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Rivals and allies

message: The second sentence in the opening paragraph states "In March 2006, four leaders of the Aryan Brotherhood were indicted for numerous crimes, including murder, conspiracy, drug trafficking, racketeering, dog fighting, and arms trafficking.[4]"
Is that really important to be placed in the summary of the article? This is a prison gang, so chances are that the majority of its members are in prison or a step away from being arrested again. Maybe it should go under 'current developments' or a similar section. Meishern (talk) 15:24, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: At the time that I added that (or maybe just preserved it in a rewrite? I can't remember), it was a big deal because, as far as I understand, it was a very successful investigation that actually took out some leaders of the gang, rather than low level flunkies. I'm not adverse to a rewrite, but I personally don't have the time or access to sources. Natalie (talk) 21:53, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Opening Paragraph

message: It is not clear what the out-come of the 2006 trial is for the five AB mentioned.
I think that most have been sentenced to life, already being served on other grounds.
:As far as I am aware, none of the defendants has been executed to date.
:There is still the possibility that some might be in the future.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.30.71.244 (talk) 17:19, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Carl Carver and Larry Max Bryan seem to have got life sentences.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.252.5 (talk) 12:00, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It is difficult to see what the outcome was for the others.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.26.11.238 (talk) 12:14, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Not clear

message: Here's a source I found:
*Schiller, Dane. "Death of reputed Aryan leader stumps police." Houston Chronicle. June 6, 2011.
WhisperToMe (talk) 16:56, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Aryan leader in Texas dead

message: The article of BGF just calls them a street gang. This article makes it look like the AB sound like it belongs on the Commision. I find it interesting that black prisoners are just "street gangs" but skinhead thugs are "Organized crime racketeers" I'm removing the organized crime category.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.146.74.239 (talk) 20:31, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  BIASED! 

message: It was never said in the show, or in production that Jacks gang was part of the AB. The producers were very careful not to connect the gang to any existing gang when they created their tattoos and look. SO it should not be included here since they were only a white supremacist gang and not AB 
http://www.amctv.com/breaking-bad/videos/contains-spoilers-making-of-episode-508-gliding-over-all-inside-breaking-bad
:*Agreed. Doesn't belong in this article. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:01, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jacks gang in Breaking Bad  

message: Is it allowed to live with an hispanic women if you are of the Aryan brotherhood.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.26.213.83 (talk) 06:10, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: *This isn't a discussion forum. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:32, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is allowed 

message: It is a mistake to call this group Aryan as the word comes from Sanskrit and is thus part of the Hindu religion or describes the people of Iran who are for the most part Muslim.  -Teetotaler 19 May, 2015   — Preceding undated comment added 10:50, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: *That's a pretty narrow view, but it doesn't matter. The article is about the group Aryan Brotherhood. They use the term. Even if you convince them to change the name today, there is still 50 years of history that will still remain here. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:41, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

text: *You're not correcting me.......this isn't about the Nazi use of the word. This article is about the Aryan Brotherhood, which wasn't around in 1844. Both of you need to focus on the topic and not using this as a discussion forum. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:22, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aryan means you are not white but are Hindu or Muslim 

message: I don't know how to fix this but just to tell you Banshee is linked to an actual banshee page not the tv series. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banshee_%28TV_series%29 Not sure if that was meant in the original editors construction but I think it should link to the series. Cheers. 86.173.122.153 (talk) 13:05, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Banshee series 

message: I think that only major presences should be listed as "territory" in the infobox. Trying to list any place they happen to show up isn't really productive — Preceding unsigned comment added by Niteshift36 (talk • contribs) 14:13, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Territory 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The co-founder of the "Aryan Brotherhood" was Dallas Earl Scott (whiteprisongangs, chicagotribune.com) (born Aug. 20, 1945, deceased Mar. 17, 1999) (obituary ; Find an inmate : DALLAS EARL SCOTT, Register Number 18698-148, Deceased: 03/17/1999). In 1966, he robbed a bank in California, was caught and sentence to San Quentin: the "Aryan Brotherhood" was formed one year later, in 1967, not in 1964.--31.37.155.16 (talk) 22:15, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dallas Earl Scott 

message: So this source from the Anti-Defamation League, is specifically about Aryan Brotherhood of Texas, which is treated by Wikipedia as distinct from the Aryan Brotherhood. Surely you noticed the dismabiguation template across the top? Using one source about a different group to cram your pet-project into this article is totally inappropriate. Whitewashing the lede of the article by removing defining characteristics and replacing them with slang and jargon is also totally inappropriate. Most readers are not going to know what "peckerwood" means, and even worse, very few sources actually describe this first and foremost as a "peckerwood gang". In fact, I haven't seen a single source which defines them as a peckerwood gang. It's a slangy term that doesn't have the academic meaning you're bestowing on it.
Even if that source were appropriate for this content, it also, repeatedly, emphasizes that the ABT is a white supremacist gang. It says this far more, and more consistently, than it says anything about peckerwood culture, which is just a single paragraph. 
The Atlantic source very, very clearly explains that the Aryan Brotherhood is white supremacist, even if not every member is enthusiastic about it. A gang which forces members to get tattoo of swastikas and "white power" on their bodies surely treats white supremacy very seriously, no? It can be a white supremacist gang even if not everybody still professes to believe in those tattoos once they are out of prison. This article is interesting, but it absolutely doesn't belong in the lede... unless your goal is to whitewash the organization be replacing "white supremacist" with a euphemism. That's not going to fly here, as we've been over so, so many times. Grayfell (talk) 04:02, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with grayfell on this one. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:52, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The real question is, how is reverting back to unsourced content the answer to the problem? I don't see any sources that say its "Neo-Nazi". I was objectively more constructive to the article by actually sourcing information. It was counterproductive to revert it. Period. And to say I was replacing it with a "euphemism" is divisive and rediculous. It's a peckerwood gang - that's a fact. I would gladly label the National Socialist Movement, Ku Klux Klan, and Hammerskin Nation as white supremacist because that's the sole purpose of those groups. To label it peckerwood would help people better understand what it actually is. [qub/x q;o++a] ++ 05:04, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

text: I'm simply trying to clarify the diversity of culture that exists in the world. This is a different culture than white supremacy, and white supremacists hate these guys because of it. AB members don't read Mein Kampf religiously. They're more culturally associated with hispanic gangs ironically and have multi-racial groups of friends. It's not whitewashing its the raw truth. As long as you can understand the truth is different from the article we can get on with our day. [qub/x q;o++a] ++ 05:13, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  How about, instead,  you search for supporting material before removing the labels you're questioning? I found 3 sources right of the bat: BBC,  Slate, WaPo. Moreover, WP:LEAD directs us to summarize the article in the first section.  Nowhere do I see "peckerwood" other than the see also section and the categories. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:28, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

text: Dollars to donuts, very, very few neo-Nazis, white supremacists, white nationalist and others in the alt-right have ever cracked Mein Kampf -- and whether they do or not is completely irrelevant. It's their actions and their expressed beliefs that are important, not where they came from. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:25, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right except for the white nationalist part. What their actions really represent is working class white people. Then started to work in labor unions with the Chicago mob. That's why the vote for the Democratic Party, because they love the unions and express their beliefs. [qub/x q;o++a] ++ 05:46, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Here again, your opinions mean nothing.  Sourced material from unbiased reliable sources is all that counts.  This article is not a vehicle for your political and sociological theories.  Go start a blog for that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:06, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Ignorance is pure bliss. I'm envious. [qub/x q;o++a] ++ 06:31, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: You should be, since knowledge is power. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:44, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right it's empowering that I actually know what I'm talking about. [qub/x q;o++a] ++ 06:54, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not a forum to discuss your beliefs. Your comments from 05:46 make it quite clear you're trying you push a pov and being disruptive in the process. EvergreenFir (talk) 07:17, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's the word-of-mouth history of the subject according to veteran members themselves, not that it should be in the article. I guess disruptive is one way of putting it. It sure doesn't fit the whole divisive script designed for gullible university kids does it? [qub/x q;o++a] ++ 08:17, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peckerwood nonsense 

message: There's a fair bit of information in the lead that is unique there, and not covered in the body of the article at all.  I've started to work on this, but there's more that needs doing.
I've added some new material to the article body in new sections Ideology and motivation, Operations and membership, Organization and affiliation, and Symbology and identification.  Some of the detailed, sourced information in the lead, could be moved down to the body, and just summarized.  For example, the stuff about the Arizona state AB organization used to be in the lead, but I moved it down to "Organization and affiliation", where it fits nicely, and just summarized that in the lead.  
The stuff still in the lead about the disproportionate number of prison murders accountable to AB also is unique to the lead, and should be moved to the body somewhere.  As the article expands, it will be easier to do that, and to encourage a better summary for the article. Mathglot (talk) 12:23, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead needs to summarize 

message: I have located sources that say AB is not connected to Aryan Nations. The current source in the article says that they are, but that source has a clear bias as it describes AN as "a national hate based organization". AB is a prison gang and their activities are disavowed by most white nationalist groups. So, what to do when sources conflict. I'd like to take out tha NPOV language and use one of my sources but don't want to run foul of 3RR. Lets discuss. 47.137.181.222 (talk) 07:20, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, but my concern is with 3RR. Would it be better to include language that indicates the affiliation is contented (thereby leaving the current language as is) and include my source(s). Then we can see them side by side and decide if it best to present the conflict or replace the current sentence. 47.137.181.222 (talk) 22:19, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: NO.  You can put your source here, and let the editors here decide which is more reliable. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:06, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aryan Nations 

message: Hello all
I've got no expert knowledge about this field, so I am not that motivated to learn all about a new topic.  However I came across the Aryan Sisterhood in another Wiki article and I find it disappointing and non-inclusive that the women of the Aryan movement do not get better articles on Wikipedia; only 1 sentence in the Assata article.
Anyone up for writing a section or a page?
"At Alderson, Shakur was housed in the Maximum Security Unit, which also contained several members of the Aryan Sisterhood"
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assata_Shakur  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eco-climber (talk • contribs) 15:02, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aryan Sisterhood page needed or at least part of the Aryan Brotherhood 

message: I'm not even a juggalo and even I know this shouldn't be here; juggals are not 'allies' of Aryan Brotherhood; the AB is inherently the complete opposite of what the juggalo movement is about. There may have been juggalos that joined the AB at some point or AB members who consider themselves juggalos, but AB members (and those of other neo Nazi/white supremacist groups) are not welcome in juggalo circles - they are the antithesis of what it's about.
I never thought I'd be defending juggalos, but here I am. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.69.252.134 (talk • contribs) 23:15, December 10, 2019 (UTC)
:With all due respect, anonymous editor, the U.S. Justice Department's National Gang Intelligence Center is a reliable source. You are not. - SummerPhDv2.0 04:32, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The edit I made has been reverted.  I invite any editors to discuss their reasons here in the talk page.  The main arguments I put forth are that my edit provides more information and uses language directly from the source.  Again, I don't want an edit war here, so I will wait a few days for discussion here before attempting any further edits. DancesWithThermalPaste (talk) 22:26, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Juggalos 

message: Who is Geri Riley and why was she contacted after AB murdered Robert Chappelle? Doing the following google search, Geri Riley Robert Chappelle -dave (the -dave bit is to stop 100's of Dave Chappelle results popping up) just brings up loads of articles with the same, They later contacted Geri Riley to let her know it was done, line that appears in the Wikipedia article, which is no surprise as most articles online are just copy/paste efforts. But it still begs the question who is Geri Riley and why was she contacted after AB killed Robert Chappelle?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yakacm (talk • contribs) 10:02, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It was added without explanation by a once-and-done IP editor in November 2018. I'm yanking it as unexplained. - SummerPhDv2.0 02:22, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geri Riley