Talk:Traditional healers of Southern Africa

message: A lot of new information has been put into this article in the last couple of months.  Unfortunately, the flow of the article has become more difficult to read and a number of inaccuracies have crept into the article.  I plan to restructure the article while trying to keep as much of the new information as possible and clarify where a number of inaccuracies have crept into the article.  A number of points that I intend to clear/clarify
# When dealing with the subject of sangomas across Southern Africa, it must be remembered that certain practises/beliefs in one area does not mean a general practice across all sangoma groups across all cultures - example of this is the current line in cosmology : "Often the crab, nokala, is invoked as a mediator between the human world and the world of spirits. The crab is given this power because of its ability to move between the world of the land and the sea" - While this is a good example of the type of beliefs that some sangomas can hold, it does not represent the general sangoma population as a whole and could be used as an example, but not as a blanket statement.
# The opening summary paragraphs talk a lot about the origin/meaning of the word sangoma without providing a summary of what a sangoma is/does/believes - I suggest that the original paragraphs are reintroduced which provide a general summary of who and what sangomas are.  The meaning, language and derivatives of the word should go into a seperate section.
I propose that the article be broken down into the following main areas :
* Beliefs and Background - General discussion around ancestors, muti, witchcraft etc.
* Divination & Healing Practises - Throwing the bones/diagnosis, uses of mutis (bath, vomiting, steaming, cuttings etc.), snuff & prayer, animal sacrifice etc. Also can be used to outline specific practises pertaining to certain cultures - eg Femba (sniffing) used to extract evil spirits/animal entities from a patient (anti-sorcery practise)
* Thwasa and Initiation - Calling/sickness, thwasa and initiation
* Drumming & Ancestral dancing - Drumming, ancestral songs (call & response), ancestral dances / celebration
* White Sangomas - I will create a new topic to discuss the section white sangomas
* Other sections - Controversy, Conflict with Western Medicine, Legal Status etc.
I will also create a seperate topic to discuss the inaccuracies, misinterpretations and generalisations that have crept into the article.  
My field of expertise is traditional practises mainly around the Gauteng, Mpumalanga, Limpopo and surrounding areas, especially as to how the practises have evolved in township life.  I will also be adding a couple of pictures to emphasise certain practises and points.  Most of my contributions/experience is experiential, however I will attempt to reference as much as I can.
Mycelium101 (talk) 02:14, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure & flow of the article - General versus Specifics 

message: I have just added 2 external links to the external links sections.  While they were seen as doing no active harm to the article, they were deemed as not appropriate for a GA quality article as they do not fit the rigourous criteria of a GA standard article.  I have readded them, as I believe they provide invaluable extension and insight into the culture and practices of traditional healers and the article is no longer nominated for a GA standard article.  (As noted previously, I have neither any affiliation nor have I ever contacted any person from any of these links, and value them solely on their ability to enhance the understanding of the article)
#The first link Mphutungwane is a website that has managed by a notable traditional healer and expert in the field, Amanda Gcabashe.  I came across her website in an article in You Magazine which profiled a number of traditional sangomas and how they are utilising technology in their arts and practices.    The BBC wrote an article on her which can be found at South Africa's hi-tech healer
#The second link is a photo gallery of a photographer that took photos of traditional healers around the Cape Area at Gallery of sangomas from different cultures around South Africa.  The focus of the website is the photos and not the commercial value of them, as there are no direct opportunity to buy these prints from the site.  
If you have any issues comments regarding including/excluding these links, please discuss here. Mycelium101 (talk) 02:32, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *Conflict of Interest Accusations - Interested readers, future editors & reviewers of this article should be aware of the Conflict Of Interest (COI) Accusations that were made against me by the original GA1 reviewer for including these links above.  These accusations were rejected by the Conflict of Interest Noticeboard experts and advisors due to lack of evidence and apparent misinterpretation of the Wikipedia guidelines for External Links by the accuser. The full conversation and accusations can be found here . Mycelium101 (talk) 01:02, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *I'm afraid that is an entirely erroneous assessment of the discussion. First to correct your errors: 1) the thread was closed with no action taken, and since no action was requested, nothing was rejected. 2) I haven't "misinterpreted" anything, let alone how we use external links.  Your use of external links in an educational article is extremely odd and unusual.  The vast majority of educational topics do not link to commercial web pages or web sites advertising products or services.  Because of your SPA behavior in this matter (this is the only topic you seem to ever work on), I brought my concerns to both the external links and COI noticeboards where they were addressed by multiple editors.  At no time have I ever requested action, however, I may have to do this in the future. Viriditas (talk) 01:40, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *Fortunately, interested parties are able to reach their own assessment of the resolution of the COI accusation by reading the COI conversation themselves. (Please be aware that according to WP:COIN Outcome Possibilities #2, you are to refrain from further accustations of COI unless you can produce additional evidence of a COI.) Mycelium101 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 03:15, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *Could you detail these alleged "accusations" that I am to refrain from.  Quotes might help.  Worries and concerns about how you are using your account aren't "accusations". Viriditas (talk) 03:21, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *I do not wish to discuss this further, as the matter has been closed and resolved with no objections from yourself.  If you wish to discuss this matter further, please reopen the topic on WP:COIN. Mycelium101 (talk) 04:01, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  /* External links */ Reinstated External links 

message: The tags of this article are being removed for the following reasons :
* This article is a clear case of WP:OVERTAGGING and the tagger has yet to demonstrate any specific issues with the actual article content based on the tags.
* The 'unreliable source' tag has been removed for the following reasons :
:- The tagger has demonstrated a lack of understanding of the harvard shortened citation notation format used in this article and therefore has assumed that all references are 'obscure'. 
:- In this entire conversation , the tagger has yet to provide one specific reference in the article that is deemed to be an unreliable source.
* The 'speculation' tag has been removed for the following reasons :
:- As this conversation demonstrates , the article is clear that it documents the *beliefs* of traditional healers and does not attempt to prove or disprove the beliefs.  This article is designed to document the culture and traditional beliefs of traditional healers in South Africa, in an academic and anthropological manner.  
:- The only 2 instances of concern that were actually raised were rectified 
:- Based on the conversations above , the taggers actions demonstrate that the article was tagged more for reasons of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT than of any content dispute.
* The 'medref' tag is being removed for the following reasons :
:- As stated here , this article is heavily referenced with sources that conform to WP:MEDRS - The article is linked to national and international bodies such as UNAIDS, WHO & the Treatment Action Campaign.  The article is heavily referenced by the leading Professor of Botany in South Africa, Professor Ben-Erik Van Wyk and contains numerous articles that have been published in the South African Medical Journal, the South African Pharmaceutical Journal, The British Medical Journal and various other academic sources, such as the University of the Witwatersrand and the University of California Press.
:- Same reasons as discussed in unreliable sources, the tagger does not understand the harvard shortened notation and therefore sees the references as 'obscure'. Mycelium101 (talk) 10:42, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of article tags 

message: Not sure why refs are here, but just to keep them out of the way of other conversations, added another section Mycelium101 (talk) 10:50, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Loose References 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Traditional healers of South Africa. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130521074002/http://www.citizen.co.za/citizen/content/en/citizen/local-news?oid=194122&sn=Detail&pid=334&Healers-threaten--poll-boycott to http://www.citizen.co.za/citizen/content/en/citizen/local-news?oid=194122&sn=Detail&pid=334&Healers-threaten--poll-boycott
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121105110602/http://www.doh.gov.za/docs/forms/2011/nomination_frm.pdf to http://www.doh.gov.za/docs/forms/2011/nomination_frm.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130208082522/http://www.paganrightsalliance.org/press.html to http://www.paganrightsalliance.org/press.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130521074016/http://www.citizen.co.za/citizen/content/en/citizen/local-news?oid=291141&sn=Detail&pid=146826&Witchcraft-education-needed to http://www.citizen.co.za/citizen/content/en/citizen/local-news?oid=291141&sn=Detail&pid=146826&Witchcraft-education-needed
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130608103340/http://www.wits.ac.za/placesofinterest/lifesciencesmuseum/izangoma/indigenous%20healing/2887/ to http://www.wits.ac.za/placesofinterest/lifesciencesmuseum/izangoma/indigenous%20healing/2887/
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Yes the article does explicitly mention other countries (besides South Africa), but it also mentions explicitly that the practices northwards are not exactly the same, and the practitioners may be known under other names, which are neither sangoma or nyanga. If a new article name is accepted, it means that the article has to cover the whole regional subject adequately, which I don't think we are ready to do. Who will describe all the practices up to the Congo? And southern African is spelled with a capital "S", implying that we should know the limits of it, but in fact it is a vague regional descriptor. So rather revert, and we'll know what is being discussed. JMK (talk) 09:59, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move to Southern Africa 

message: Need to explain the differences between the 3 types of traditional practitioners in South Africa.
~~Ted~~ 2607:FEA8:4A0:9B00:D593:ACFC:3F94:6C85 (talk) 22:12, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:   Isangoma vs Sagoma vs Inyanga