Template talk:Jewish and Israeli holidays

message: I think we should come to some sort of consensus on which holidays to include and how to organize them. I just added Pesach Sheni but I'm not sure whether or not it should make the cut. It is a holiday ordained by the Torah but is it significant enough to include here. Should we have a separate section for the holidays so minor that the only change is that Tachanun is omitted and that very few people observe/know about (ie: Tu B'Av or Pesach Sheni)? I do agree that the four Israel holidays should retain their own section as a compromise as not to offend those who do not consider them holidays nor offending those who consider them full-fledged Jewish-religious holidays. And Should Yitzhak Rabin Memorial Day be included here? --Valley2city₪‽ 17:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which holidays to include and how to organize them 

message: Sigd and Maimouna he: articlemore info come to mind.  Any others?  Tomertalk 00:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Added them. -ReuvenkT C 13:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, see my comments below #Ethnic Jewish holidays. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 10:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Community-specific holy days 

message: Whoever added Unofficial  to this venerable template has a lot of explaining to do...! I have removed it, naturally. IZAK 03:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yitzchak Rabin day? 

message: Since when is "Counting of the Omer" a Jewish holiday? Chesdovi 13:46, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Counting of the Omer

message: It is pure WP:NOR to go down this path. Either a day is a Jewish holiday or it is not. For the same reason that Israeli holidays could not eventually be included here, "Sigd" or "Mimouna" (the latter not being a holiday, more of a eating fest like a post Pesach beerfest) also cannot. Otherwise we may as well start including the likes of Chrismukkah or 19 Kislev into "ethnic Jewish holidays" -- so sorry, let's keep our focus here please, and not fall victim to ethnic splintering. IZAK (talk) 10:07, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic Jewish holidays 

message: The name should all be in Hebrew, i.e. Rosh Hashana or all in English, i.e. New Year. At the monment there is a mix. Chesdovi (talk) 22:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This reflects the fact that the article names are a mix, based on common usage. --Eliyak T·C 01:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistency 

message: The 3 weeks and 9 days are not holidays. If special periods are to be included, including sefirat haomer, they require a new field. Chesdovi (talk) 23:02, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I was the one who added them -- but would not fight a decision to delete them, bowing to the feelings of others. Because there was a section on "secular Israeli holidays," I thought a similar section on "secular U.S. holidays" (with strong Jewish links) -- comparing, for example, Days of Remembrance of the Victims of the Holocaust as a U.S. secular observance to Yom Hashoa as an Israeli secular observance.  I thought the addition made sense, and would allow others to know about these secular observances. Again, though, I don't feel strongly enough about the issue to fight if others agree this new section should be deleted. I'll wait to see what others decide! Thanks! (I know I'm still learning....). NearTheZoo (talk) 02:42, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If we are to keep this section, I think we should rename it to something that encompasses the entire diaspora, not just the United States, but I also fear that if we start putting these things here I think we'll have a case of "ein l'davar sof", we'll have no end of the matter. On another note, Yehoishophot, I undid your change of Modern Holidays to Secular Israeli holidays because we've had previous discussion above on this talk page on the matter and consensus indicates that most Jews consider these four holidays to have religious implications and content as well. I think that any further change should come as a result of sufficient discussion. Thanks, Valley2city‽ 02:05, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

text: Valley2city, the earlier discussion as I recall was about whether to include these days in this template altogether, but I accept your edit of the heading. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 21:33, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I very much like the idea of expanding the section (and title) to Diaspora National/International Observances (or something like that) -- and think those who open the template to learn more about "Jewish" observances might be interested to learn about the ways other nations or the international community have set aside time to honor and recognize Jewish contributions.  I won't add more opinions -- :) -- and just wait to see what the consensus is, because I also understand the point of view of editors who might object. On the other hand, if we limit the list to official observances, there might not be that many.... NearTheZoo (talk) 13:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You'd just have to take out the word "Jewish" from the title, since these are non-Jewish days. I recommend putting it in a separate template instead. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 21:33, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I appreciate it Yehoishophot. Meanwhile, do you think perhaps WikiProject Judaism is alive enough to be a rallying point for centralized discussions, not just on this, but on other pertinent topics. I admit I haven't been paying much attention there recently because most of my recent wiki time has been spent on maintenance instead of content, but now that I'm on vacation from school I'll be able to spend more time coordinating article namespace. I think we should bring it up to discussion on WP:JEW. Valley2city‽ 22:33, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sounds good to me. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 02:20, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Until decision is made whether to keep the new sub-section or not, I went ahead (based on comments, above) and retitled it for now: "Diaspora Secular Observances Honoring Jews and Judaism" NearTheZoo (talk) 18:52, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holidays / Fast days 

message: The holidays are specific to Chabad, a sect of 200,000 people. Considering there are more than 13 million Jews, holidays commemorated by 200,000 of them (roughly 1.5%) probably don't belong on the template. See WP:UNDUE and WP:CHABAD. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:07, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There are at least 200,000 Lubavitchers in the world, as I have argued elsewhere. Nevertheless, I agree that specific Chabad festivals should not be included in this template. Debresser (talk) 18:53, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chassidic holidays? 

message: The Hasidic holiday of 19 Kislev was removed today by Brewcrewer in this edit with editsummary: please find a consensus to include this "holiday" celebrated by a superminority apparently and please find a consensus for this misdescribed category.
As I explained already in my previous edit to this template, 19 Kislev is not an exclusively Lubavitch holiday, but is noted by other hasidic groups as well. The same seem to be the opinion of Redaktor, who in this edit of 29 June 2010 removed 11 Nissan as a strictly Lubavitch holiday, but left 19 Kislev in place.
In addition, 19 Kislev was added in this edit on 16 May 2010. That is to say, a year ago. Therefore I think the burden on proof for consensus is clearly on Brewcrewer, if he feels he can prove that there is no consensus to have this holiday here in this template. Debresser (talk) 07:00, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: See the section right above this one, where all non-SPA editors did not think it belonged. Count myself among them.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:07, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  That ignores the argument that 19 Kislev is celebrated by other Hasidic groups as well. What does SPA stand for? In addition, you can hardly say that that discussion came to any consensus. Some argued against, and their arguments were refuted by as many editors in favor. As you see, none of those involved deemed it justified to actually remove 19 Kislev. Debresser (talk) 18:33, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It ignores the argument because no source was provided to support the argument.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 02:50, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Do you mean that since you yourself weren't aware of this, therefore you need a source? If you were hasidic you'd know. Debresser (talk) 09:36, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If 19 Kislev is celebrated by Hasidim other than Chabad, why does 19 Kislev refer only to its significance among the Lubavich? I thought we had discussed this a year ago and agreed to remove 19 Kislev and other Chabad holidays. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:28, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree that 19 Kislev is celebrated most by Chabad hasidim. The article mentions that it is also the day the Dov Ber of Mezeritch passed away, but indeed does not mention that it is celebrated by other hasidim as well. That should be amended. Debresser (talk) 08:33, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  19 Kislev 

message: You have changed the top title from "Jewish and Israeli" to "Jewish". We have discussed over time having traditional holidays, Israeli civic holidays and ethnic holidays all included on the template, because religiously, there is some overlap in the concepts of traditional Jewish holidays, Israeli civic holidays and ethnic holidays. Keeping the title "Jewish and Israeli" allows us to keep these together in a single template without too much fuss. If you title the template "Jewish", people will argue whether or not "Israeli" or ethnic holidays even belong here. And unless you want to open that can of worms again, I think this title is better left intact.
As far as "Torah-based" and "rabbinically ordained", what's the point? The page Jewish holidays addresses that subject in detail. But this is a navigation template, not an encyclopedia article, and we don't need to be that detailed on the subject here. I could be persuaded differently on this title, but I think the original title is simple and effective. Describing the holidays as "Torah-based" and "rabbinically ordained" isn't wrong, of course, but it seems to be trying to make a point that just doesn't need to be made in this setting. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:24, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Completely agree with Steven on both accounts. The change to the title was incorrect and unacceptable. The second change is not an improvement. Debresser (talk) 21:49, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Titles and subtitles

message: Do we really need the "since" additions for the secular holidays? By the way, not all religious holidays are from the same time either. Debresser (talk) 19:19, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know how I missed this before. Must be because it was around the time of the chagim. I'd remove them, except (maybe) for the two that first appeared in the last decade.  StevenJ81 (talk) 17:39, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: No further comments? I'm removing them, except for the two very recent ones. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:35, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Since 

message: :Duplicate of posting at . Eliminating here to consolidate the discussion in one location. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:47, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israeli Days of Remembrance and Jabotinsky & Herzl Days