Wikipedia talk:No original research/Archive 29

message: I wrote this article (from the article at fr and Babelfish), and added to the end of it a section about doping allegations. Obviously, for a professional cyclist, credible doping allegations are significant and belong in the article.
The problem is, the accusations weren't made directly - Greg LeMond spoke of "a former teammate" who left one team (Gan) for an Italian team that would provide doping products, and died of a heart attack shortly thereafter. Now, it is trivial research to look at LeMond's Gan teammates at the time and see that only one left for an Italian team and died shortly thereafter - Casado. This is completely verifiable, followable by anybody without specialist training.
Now, obviously the issues here aren't entirely primary sources - or even necessarily at all, since the article cites a secondary news account of LeMond's comments. But the sort of synthetic claim made here seems to me similar to the sorts of claims that (I think) we all agree can be safely made about the plots of movies and the like. And it gets at the problem at the heart of NOR - that there is absolutely nothing resembling a bright line distinction between OR and proper summary.
To my mind (obviously) the Casado article sits firmly and safely on the good side of the OR line - the claims are easily checked, the synthesis is obvious. But how do we go about tuning that distinction?
To my mind, our best bet is still, essentially, a social one - that is, claims that do not attract attention as OR are assumed not to be OR. But that would need to be paired with some sort of social norm that notes that you should not accuse something of being OR unless you have genuine skepticism that it is an obvious and indisputable conclusion. 
What do other people think? How can we distinguish acceptable synthesis from unacceptable synthesis?  Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:11, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We cannot, and we should not try. We trust editors to use common sense and not do anything detrimental to WP, and this trust should extend to every sphere of editing process. That this trust is misplaced in some cases should not cause us to become generally distrusting. -- Fullstop (talk) 20:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree.  Recruit good editors and trust them.  Let the editors involved decide whether the synthesis is reasonable or excessively original.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 20:47, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also agree, I think - local consensus and social control is going to be far more effective than a rigid policy. The problem is that we do have people who endorse rigid policy above all else - which is where we run into problems. What I'd like to see is a phrasing that encourages social norming here - something that encourages to challenge things they think are non-obvious or disputable conclusions, but also discourages them from challenging things for the sake of the rules alone. And that's, I think, where a lot of the problems with this page could quickly be solved - if we effectively discouraged treating NOR as an end in itself. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, until we can monitor the front door to the project, I suspect that we will always have a problem with people who want to rigidly enforce policy. I've been wrestling with a similar problem: providing a summary of the events of an important battle in Ethiopian history. The primary source I would use narrates the events quite clearly until the middle of the battle the author starts a new paragraph about how one side has won the battle; when I read that passage, I felt that the words "a scene missing here" needed to be added in the text -- yes, just like in the Monty Python sketch. Now, I can reference to traditional Ethiopian warfare tactics, & fill in the gap with a "this is likely what happened here" explanation, which would not be novel or unusual -- but I'm not comfortable with that, & until I can solve this problem the article is likely to remain a stub. What would help me in this case -- & I believe would help in the case Phil Sandifer describes above -- is if we had a way to get an outside opinion from a veteran editor who could help explain that this is not OR. I don't think opening an RfC would work because of the way this method is currently structured (e.g., it needs 2 editors to open), & because some eager-beaver newbie would see the RfC & slap  on the article -- which would defeat the purpose but succeed in annoying one & all. -- llywrch (talk) 22:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - an improvement in the culture we have surrounding the act of editing (as opposed to just writing) would only be a good thing. Phil Sandifer (talk) 23:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Ah yes. The commonality then is "everything in moderation," here avoiding over-precision on policy pages ("spirit, not letter"). -- Fullstop (talk) 23:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I think this has more to due with reliability than with OR. In terms of OR, I'm not a cycling fanatic and don't really follow the sport, but it's obvious to me who is being referred to with minimal checking. The blatantly obvious to non-experts has long been an accepted exception to the rules, and is even explicitly included in the language of V and NOR. However, it's questionable whether an implication is acceptable from a very visible and acrimonious crusader against doping who all but accuses the entire sport of doping making an uncorroborated accusation on a hot topic that is widely covered by the media and other sources. There would be less question if the accusation was in the accuser's article discussing his anti-doping crusade. Vassyana (talk) 22:30, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Case study: [[Philippe Casado]] 

message: This is quoted like a mantra, but Wikipedia DEFINES "verifiable" in terms that have no reference except to objective truth. For example: it DEFINES verifiable as "reliable" and from "established experts" and from sources "with a reputation for accuracy". Well, the words "reliable" and "expert" and "accurate" have no meaning unless we're talking about truth-relatedness. Truthiness, as Colbert would say. So what's with the "verifiable, NOT true" crap? Is somebody just trying to confuse things? There's no room for a NOT in that sentence, if the said definition of verifiable is to be used. Would somebody like to explain what point is trying to be made in this statement, at such labor? Cause I'm obviously not getting it. SBHarris 05:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the point is that if editors try to be the arbiter of truth themselves, that would be engaging in OR. We must look for consensus that has formed organically in the RS, and not try to judge truth for ourselves. Some common sense is required in applying this, however. Out-of-date sources may have verifiable information that is just plain wrong for a number of reasons, and we can ignore this in favor of more up-to-date material. Sources sometimes make obvious errors, and we can ignore these when we have sources that did not make or repeat the mistake. So if something is verifiable but not true, there should be RS to back that assessment. You can't substitute your own unpublished assessment, however. Dhaluza (talk) 12:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I believe the operative word here is "reputation" for accuracy, which is a different thing from accuracy itself. The distinction is critical. Reputations are with respect to communities and are not universal. A doctor of theology certified by the Vatican and peer-reviewed by other theologians may have a reputation for reliably reflecting Catholic doctrine, but regarding such an individual as a reliable source on Catholic doctrine in no way implies that Wikipedia believes Catholic doctrine is "the truth." Similarly, a PhD peer-reviewed by the academic community as an expert on biology can reliably reflect scientific views on that subject, but this doesn't mean Wikipedia endorses everything biologists say either. The issue is simply whether the communities in which the reputations are formed represent points of view which are "significant" as WP:NPOV defines that term. WP:NPOV says more than simply that editors can't decide who to believe, it says that Wikipedia shouldn't decide this. The policy is to present diametrically opposed points of view so long as they are significant; Creationism and Evolution; Libertarianism and Natural law theory; Monotheism, Polytheism, and Atheism; Capitalism and Socialism; Materialism and Idealism; Rationalism and Mysticism; you name it. The encyclopedia isn't interested in who is right in the many debates about what the truth is and how best to perceive it. It simply presents the different points of view. Best, --Shirahadasha 23:09, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verifiability, '''not''' truth?? 

message: Please come participate in the discussion here. It involves image use policy issues far beyond the template itself. Thanks. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion about image use and  WP:NOR 

message: I find the current situation here frustrating. I'll acknowledge that no wording that is acceptable to everybody has been found, but there is a real dispute here, and it should have a tag.
I mean, I'd prefer to actually see some compromise on the wording so the tag can be removed. All I really want is something that loosens the wording up, acknowledges that these are general rules, etc. That's part of the problem - this is a policy page, and the applicability of PSTS seems more in line with the applicability of a guideline. (Or we could just spin PSTS off and tag it as guideline. That would even satisfy me.)
But really - can we actually make some progress here? A little? Maybe? And can we agree, in the name of good faith, to say that the section is disputed while we make said progress? Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:21, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we not just add: "Like all advice and rules in Wikipedia policies, the decision as to whether primary or secondary sources are more suitable on any given occasion is a matter of common sense and good editiorial judgement?" SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 22:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would love it if we did. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, lemme tinker the wording a bit, since this is a wiki: "Appropriate sourcing is a complicated issue, and these are general rules. The decision as to whether primary or secondary sources are more suitable on a specific occasion is a matter of common sense and good editorial judgment, and should be discussed on individual article talk pages." Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:29, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine with me. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 22:30, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

text: OK - what about the wording I propose above that SV likes? Any problems with adding it to the page? Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's good, but I see it as a Band-Aid over a gushing wound. Take a look at my proposal in the next section, which is a minimal change, yet at least from my perspective would move us 85% of the way toward reflecting actual Wikipedia consensus in real articles, be it in physics, math, philosophy, fiction, or whatever other kind of article. I don't see any loopholes here. COGDEN 23:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I have no problem with such a caveat, at all. It would be a good addition. My comment was more towards echoing sympathy with your frustration. Imagine how those of who've been here for months discussing PSTS feel! Vassyana (talk) 23:23, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I've added it. If there are no objections, I'd also like to remove the two sentences above it, which just repeat what's said elsewhere: "All sources should be used in a way that does not give rise to new analyses, syntheses or original conclusions that are not verifiable. Where interpretive claims, analysis, or synthetic claims are included in Wikipedia articles, use appropriate sources rather than original analysis by Wikipedia editors." SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 23:30, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The first sentence is useful in making it clear that these requirements apply to secondary or tertiary sources as well as primary sources, to avoid the sort of tendentious misunderstandings so eloquently set out by cogden. The second sentence is well covered by the secondary source statement and by the new addition, and can be deleted imo. .. dave souza, talk 00:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frustrating