Talk:Battle of Graignes

message: I feel there's a couple of things wrong with it. Firstly, the title refers to a place, not an event and the article is about an event. Also, it has little to no formatting, or references. If you don't know how to do references, here's a guide. Of course, this is all just my opinion. It's obvious someone took a long time over this, and I'm sure the content is correct and verifiable, but it could be so much better. Thanks for your time. Liam.
:I've moved the article to Battle of Graignes, although I'm not sure if this title is the most appropriate. Korg (talk) 20:07, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Good meaty article, but...

message: The town of Graignes was as much of an 'event' to the men and women who fought and died there as it was a name of a town. To title it aptly as an event the word 'massacre' would need to be added, however i feel this might take away from the heroic stand made by the American Airborne forces and French Civilians that were sacrificed there after a hard, week long fight.
The formatting could be done better, hopefully someone with some formatting mojo will come along and fix that up.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Metronil (talk • contribs) 14:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Agreed, great article, lots of information

message: I was first introduced to Graignes in June 1998, by a Norman friend who asked if I could help get the story out to the American people.  As we drove up the winding road to "la Memorial," the church that today is a living memorial to those townspeople and American soldiers who were massacred by the SS troopers.  What a feeling to stand in the cemetery and look down upon the fields below, knowing that at that very spot men and women had fought for their lives. To see the names of both French and Americans on the tablet in gold really gave me pause to reflect on those days 54 years before.  Everyone should know the story of Graignes and the atrocities that occured there.
When I returned home to the USA I wrote to Tom Brokaw, news personality and author of "The Greatest Generation."  I told him about Graignes and asked if he could get the story about this sacred place to the American people.  It wasn't until the 60th anniversary commemorations of D-Day, in June 2004, that Mr. Brokaw aired a special one hour memorial documentary from Normandy.  Low and behold, he visited Graignes and told the story. Today, more and more people are aware of what occured and are helping to remember those days of horror.
In 2004, while in Normandy to visit my dad's P47 crash site memorial in Cherbourg-Octeville, my wife and I drove to Graignes to pay our respects. This was her first visit to the site.
Sincerely,
Harry
P47Harry (talk) 14:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  I Visited Graignes 

message: The casualties of the Germans is certainly based on American estimations since they retreated no body count for the dead Germans is done by the Americans . It is important to know that the official records of the 17 SS division states till June 15th the division sufferred a total 79 dead , 61 missing and 316 wounded , so I guess the casuality figure estimate is 10 times than the reality  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.8.246.12 (talk) 18:05, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  German casualties 

message: Well, I'm not experienced in editing or wikipedia's policies but "the story focusses" doesn't really seem a good introduction  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.49.61.51 (talk) 01:55, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The introduction needs work (as does overall organization). It should provide a summary of the article and why it is worth the reader's time. It should look more like... The Battle of Graignes, part of the Battle of Normandy in World War II, was fought June 10-12, 1944 in Grainges, France. During the engagement, paratroopers of the US 82nd Airborne Division held the town for 2 days against the 17th SS Panzergrenadier Division. This action delayed the 17th Panzergrenadier's counterattack on Carentan, which was repulsed at the Battle of Bloody Gulch on June 13. After retaking the Graignes, the Germans Massacred 44 civilians and set fire to the town... Having not seen any primary sources, I cannot verify that this information is factual.Duergan (talk) 02:59, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done. 90.229.34.175 (talk) 09:34, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction 

message: Here is the full text of the article, prior to pruning down the storytelling, emotional language and most egregious cases of unencyclopedic content. 90.229.34.175 (talk) 09:00, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Complete Content 

message: After the Americans evacuated and the Germans captured the village, something terrible happened. Elements of the 17th SS Panzergrenadier Division Götz von Berlichingen had conducted the final assault on Graignes. When the 17th attacked, it was with a regimental sized force of approximately 2,000. The odds were literally ten to one in the Germans’ favor. Despite those odds though, the 182 paratroopers defending Graignes inflicted an estimated five hundred killed and seven hundred wounded on the Germans during the course of the fighting on the 10th and 11th. The stubborn and determined American defense that gave the 17th such high losses brought on a vicious and brutal reprisal.
At the end of the 11 June battle, the 17th SS stormed the church and found Capt. Sophian’s aid station. They promptly forced the Captain and all of the wounded outside where they were made to line-up against a wall. The men were then divided into two groups and marched away from the church. One group (nine troopers) was marched off to the south and the other group (five troopers) was marched down to the edge of a shallow pond behind Madame Boursier’s café. At the edge of the pond, the SS bayoneted the wounded men and threw them into the water one on top of the other. The other group of 507th paratroopers was forced to march four kilometers to the south to a field near the village of Le Mesnil Angot. There, the nine wounded men were forced to dig a pit. As soon as the pit was complete, the SS shot each one of them in the back of the head and dumped their bodies in the pit one on top of the other.
The murder of the paratroopers was only the beginning of the atrocity at Graignes. While one group of the Germans led the Americans off to execution, other Germans began systematically rounding-up French civilians suspected of assisting them. At about the same time, a group of SS men proceeded to the church rectory seeking revenge. They knew that the church’s belfry had been used throughout the battle as an observation point. They knew that the accurate and devastating mortar fire that had been controlled by the observers in that belfry had killed and wounded hundreds of their comrades. Consequently, they sought to make an example out of the people at the church whose interaction with the Americans had permitted those casualties to happen. The Germans burst into the rectory, dragged Father Leblastier and Father Lebarbanchon into the courtyard and shot them both to death. The Germans then discovered Madeleine Pezeril and eighty-year-old Eugenie DuJardin. Overwhelmed with fear, the two ladies had been cowering in their quarters ever since the beginning of the final assault. The Germans shot and killed both women in their beds. Meanwhile, a total of forty-four villagers had been rounded up and were under interrogation by the Germans as suspected collaborators. They were threatened with execution if they did not turn in the names of any and all villagers who had actively assisted the Americans, but not a single one of them turned in a single name. In fact, none of them revealed the prominent role that Alphonse Voydie had played in the Graignes drama. Had the Germans known that Voydie had been the catalyst of organization that he was, they would surely have executed him too.
The villagers’ refusal to cooperate only exacerbated the Germans’ fury. Many of the detained citizens were immediately sent south to nearby Le-Haut-Vernay where they were forced to help remove the hundreds of Germans who had been killed or wounded in the day’s fighting. This lasted practically the entire night. Then the next morning (12 June) the Germans began ransacking every house in the village. During their searches, furniture was overturned and rifled through and valuables were plundered. Many of the villagers that had fled the previous night’s attack attempted to return to their homes that morning only to be turned away on the outskirts of town. Machine guns that had been set up at several strategic approaches presented an uninviting sight to the exhausted villagers.
Again, the Waffen SS casualties are exaggerated as per Martin K.A Morgan and Niels Henkemans. A single company of 17th Waffen SS attacked, approx. 100 soldiers. Casualties are today estimated at less than 50 killed, wounded and MIA. SonicTed (talk) 19:28, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Reprisal

message: Latest research shows it was the 2nd Company of 1st Battalion / 37th Panzergrenadier Regiment of 17th Waffen SS that attacked Graignes. It was NOT the entire 37th Regiment. 
So c.100 soldiers attacked, not 2,000.
Nazi losses are now estimated at 50 or less, including killed, wounded and missing. 
See US historian Marty Morgan on YouTube: „Graignes 1944 - Challenging a legend.“ Morgan is the author of „Down to Earth: The 507th PIR in Normandy“, which is cited in this article. In the YouTube video, he refers to Dutch historian Nils Henkemans, who discovered new evidence on the forces involved and estimated losses. 
It should be self-evident in any case that a company consisting of 100 men cannot sustain 300 losses in killed and wounded. Please adjust the article accordingly. SonicTed (talk) 19:12, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article gets it wrong - should be overhauled