Talk:Indonesian National Armed Forces

message: This article is becoming too long as an extended equipment list (see WP:Not if you dont understand that) with negligble cited sources for what history is contained. It is about to be broken up into separate subsidiary articles from the main.
If you are adding material - please use or find citations for your information otherwise the added info will be reverted.  If you are not a native speaker of english - please note your text will probably  be modified as this is an english based part of Wikipedia.  SatuSuro 01:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Army removed first - adjustments will need to be made to this article and the army article - please help! SatuSuro 01:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Breakup

message: This article is overweighted towards the Air Force, and very light on the other armed services. It also needs much more referencing. I have tidied it up, but it's another item on the long list of Indonesian articles needing substantial work. Oh for 36 hours in the day! Davidelit 04:04, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Balance

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Mig21now.jpg

message: :Image:Id-navyflag.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Id-navyflag.jpg

message: Offering some minor editing here- pls feel free to revert if you don't like the changes.Starstylers (talk) 07:09, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor editing, etc 

message: Davidelit, could you explain your revert of my edit? You gave no edit summary. Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 23:40, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, Davidelit can speak for himself and may provide a differnt rationale, but in the meantime, I note that your edit had no explanatory summary. Any benefit of your change are not self-evident and in lieu of any explanation, I support David’s revert. --Merbabu (talk) 23:50, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Davidelit's revert 

message: :The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the move request was: Page moved. Ucucha 13:56, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Indonesian National Armed Forces → Indonesian National Defence Forces — I  this article in June from the generic name Military of Indonesia to a translation that approximates the official name. Since then, the Indonesian military has come up with an official translation which is written on the official website. By accessing the drop down menu below the navigation bar, one can see an English version of the website with the banner "Indonesian National Defence Forces". This translation is also used by foreign sources: (The Straits Times) (Singapore Ministry of Defence) (Channel NewsAsia)—Arsonal (talk) 20:27, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

text: *Direct translation does not work. Tentara is more accurately translated as soldier or infantryman. The translation to military exists because militaries in pre-modern Indonesia have largely been land armies. Arsonal (talk) 14:40, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

text: *Further comment. The Echols & Shadily Kamus Indonesia Inggris defines "Tentara" as "army, and the affixed noun "ketentaraan" as "military" or "military forces". Of course in headlines such as "Perempuan Biak diperkosa tentara Indonesia", "tentara" would be soldier/s.  Davidelit (Talk)  15:12, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Why was the page moved? --Merbabu (talk) 07:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The reasoning was as eloquent as an Indonesian bureaucrat might try - immigrasi di Yogyakarta - couldnt do better SatuSuro 08:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 

message: There is a statement 
"During the New Order-regime the "Tentara Nasional Indonesia" (Indonesian National Army/TNI) changed its name to "Angkatan Bersenjata Republik Indonesia" (Republic of Indonesia Armed Forces/ABRI) and incorporated the POLRI (Indonesian National Police)."
I don't think this is the case. The name ABRI was already known before the New Order regime. The list of 1st Dwikora Cabinet clearly showed these ministerial posts with the association to the name ABRI: 
# 
# Menteri Koordinator/Kepala Staf ABRI :   (coordinating minister/chief of staff of the armed forces) 
# Menteri/Panglima Angkatan Darat:         (minister/commander of the army)
# Menteri/Panglima Angkatan Laut:          (minister/commander of the navy) 
# Menteri/Panglima Angkatan Udara:         (minister/commander of the air force) 
# Menteri/Panglima Angkatan Kepolisian:    (minister/commander of the police force)
Also, the National Police was already under the purview of the Menko/KSAB then, and was considered the 'fourth branch' of the Armed Forces. It is evident by the name put forward by the Communist Party when the Party proposed to arm peasants and labours, which would be called 'the Fifth Branch' (Angkatan Ke-5). 
My points are:
# the name ABRI is not creation of the New Order, rather of President Soekarno's era
# the set-up to place the Police Force under military purview was begun in the President Soekarno'era, not of the New Order 
# 
Djawahiri136 (talk) 01:47, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  on the name "ABRI" 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'd like to remove entire history section since there is a page dedicated for Indonesian military history. Ckfasdf (talk) 08:50, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  History section 

message: The word "Indonesian National Armed Forces" should be translated in Indonesian as "Angkatan Bersenjata Nasional Indonesia" Which is not the actual translation of "Tentara Nasional Indonesia (TNI)" Meanwhile TNI literal translation is "Indonesian National Army" This also applied to its military branches such as TNI-AD (TNI-Angkatan Darat) or TNI-Ground Force, TNI-Angkatan Udara (lit. TNI-Air Force), and TNI-Angkatan Laut (lit. TNI-Sea Force) or (TNI-Navy) 
I would suggest to move and change the translations of TNI and its branches. Mhatopzz (talk) 06:16, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagree... per WP:NONENG  nobody refer "Indonesian National Army" as TNI or "TNI-Ground Force" as TNI-AD. whereas it's easy to find sources that refer Indonesian National Armed Forces as TNI (such as 1, 2 and 3) or Indonesian army as TNI-AD. Ckfasdf (talk) 02:53, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Literal Translation 

message: Hi @Davidelit regarding to the translation of quoting the "Negara Kesatuan Republik Indonesia" while a matter of elegance is up to each interpretation and opinion of the respective Wikipedians. Wouldn't official documents be preferred in this case as per WP:NONENG? Another source I would like to cite is the 1945 Constitution of the Republic of Indonesia (English translation) from the Constitutional Court in which it states on Article 25A - Chapter IXA (regarding State Territory):
"The Unitary State of the Republic of Indonesia is an archipelagic state having an Archipelagic (Nusantara) character with a territory, the borders and rights of whose territory is stipulated by law."
The same translations were also used in Article 18 and 18B - Chapter VI (regarding Local Governments), and Article 37 - Chapter XVI (regarding Constitutional Amendments)
Same translation also exist in "The Military English Handbook" by the Army Personnel Staff. While I personally agree 'Official' translations can be rough, and a good translation should be a nice amount of poetic, and literal. This is to prevent stiff and/or easily misinterpreted translations. However In this specific case I found 'Unitary State of the Republic of Indonesia' fits better than 'Unitary Republic of Indonesia'. As NKRI is 'Negara Kesatuan Republik Indonesia' and not 'Republik Kesatuan Indonesia'. I do not find this specific case as incorrect or rough. What are your thoughts on this? EvoSwatch (talk) 15:43, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I second  comments, aside per WP:NONENG whereas sourced translation is preferred. WP also prefer commonly or frequently used word use for translation (IMO WP:COMMONNAME can be applies here). And there are plenty references that translate Negara Kesatuan Republik Indonesia as 'Unitary State of the Republic of Indonesia', such as Indonesia's socio-political developments during Jokowi's leadership, Transforming East Asian Domestic and International Politics, Conflict, Community, and Criminality in Southeast Asia and Australia: Assessments from the Field, Travel Indonesia and many more, which shows that's the common translation for that word. Ckfasdf (talk) 02:41, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotation translation