Talk:Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn/Archive 3

message: Which of the last two version shall we take as the starting point forward:
Ehheh's:
*Support -999 (Talk) 02:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Survey 

message: This morning I readded the material inappropriately deleted using revert-revert tactics by the HOGD, Inc licencee faction. Listen guys, indtead of insisting on such tactics, why not discuss the changes here in good faith? Do we really need to get a mediator in here. Your 'steamroller' tactics will not work, no many how many other users you solicit to revert here we will stop you until you listen to reason and discuss the issues without trying to rig surveys with readers you bring in from outside to create an illusion of false consensus. We can and will do the same if you force our hand. We do not want this, however. You are the ones forcing the reverts, not us.--Zanoni666 17:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't do that. Questioning sources and citations is a normal part of the evolution of an article on Wikipedia. Nothing should be put back in unless its citation is strengthened, like you did to the material that was left in the article by adding page numbers. I think there is still some disagreement whether the source used for the deleted material is allowable under WP policy. This should be resolved first via discussion with the other editors. If there is agreement that the source is acceptible, only then go on to give more precise citation and quotes. -Baba Louis 17:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We will discuss this with you. However, your demonstrated recruitment by  User 999, ant the tactics you are using are a breach if Wikipedia ettiquette and a subversion of 3RR rules. This will be brought to the attention of the mediator.--Zanoni666 17:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not breaching WP etiquette - you are. I am attempting to assist in an article by listing it for RfC. The best result will be achieved by following dispute resolution processes, not by arbitrary actions. Discuss with the other editors, or you will soon be receiving a lot of attention from a lot of long time WP editors who respond when a user conduct RfC is opened. -999 (Talk) 17:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Isnt Baba Louis the one who came in from the RfC area? How has he been recruited? He came here, being a third party in this mess, with nothing to proove, only to help. I don't think you should continue to accuse people trying to help Zanoni, its not helping your argument (but then again, what is?). Zos 18:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah yes he was, but it wasnt this talk page (getting confused as to which talk page is which now- HG inc.), it was this one Talk:The_Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn%2C_Inc.#External_input. Zos 18:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I did ask him on his talk page to also look at Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, just before I also listed it for RfC. But that was after he had already responded to the first RfC on HOGD, Inc. -999 (Talk) 19:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: User Zos would like to point out that this was only after confusion had set it, during a revert war, and before consensus was completed. I hope this helps. Zos 19:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Inappropriate Deletion

message: I proposing again that all material in the Cipher Manuscript sub-section be moved to it's own article, except for the first paragraph. That's why that article was created in the first place, months ago. - JMax555 22:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cipher Manuscript 

message: This article is hereby protected. Resolve your disputes here, on this talk page. This article will not be unprotected until a concensus is reached about the disputed material. Once a concensus is achieved, contact me to request unprotection. Page protection is not an endorsement of the current page version. --Lord Deskana Dark Lord of the Sith 19:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection 

message: You will all note that I have filed, and requested for mediation in this disputation; I feel the time is certainly right at this stage, seeing we’re in a deadlocked situation with no coherent consensus, and moreover, now the edit/revert wars (games), are over, as I requested the pages to be locked; to now put forward serious negociation, proposals and substantial compromises. I want to seek mediation in this highly problematic, long-standing case now, as want to propose what I think will settle the disputation by making significant compromises and proposals.  I fear that if I were to proceed in executing these to the discussion page, that under current circumstances and without mediation, my proposals and compromises will be lost; and further unrest and schism will be the only result, as per tradition with this discussion.  I would like to make these proposals with a mediator involved to as I feel this will put a halt to the never ending arguments, intrigues and disputes.  In the hope that some immediate ground will be made on this now that the edit/revert warring is not now taking precedence over serious discussion and consensus building.
I trust you will pledge your agreement to the mediation and start the ball can start rolling and this can be sorted out properly and in a dignified manner.  I will be shortly making my recommendations and proposals to the discussion page herein, very shortly. 
At this juncture, and in recent days, I have been exceedingly reticent at involving myself in any of the supra postings, as it never seems to get us anywhere, thus, I have indeed, refrained from doing so.   I now will now involve myself again with constructive consensus building hopefully, under the guidance of a mediator; any other effort is completely wasted otherwise in my own opinion, as it only degenerates into further argumentative schism. 
I trust you will find this in order gentlemen.
Frater FiatLux 21:15, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is the link. All parties involved are to agree there. I mistakenly agreed here first, how silly of me. Zos 05:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mediation

message: I do think the mediator(s) are capable of determining what the rules are, and can tell if anyone is breaking them, without your help -- just as you had your own comments on the issues in dispute removed from that page without anyone having to "report" you. 
Your deleted comment on that page was:
:Editing and Revert warring by parties involved to biased political P.O.V. articles, to exploit ongoing trademark litigation and to advertise legal funds, so much so that all three articles involved in the disputation are currently fully protected. Unreasonable, and inordinate amount of citations on particular articles. 
But I see no reason why this can't be discussed here, not on the mediation page. Let's unpack the statement and take the points it rasies one at a time:
*"biased political P.O.V. articles"
What it comes down to, as far as I can determine (because it's not made clear by FiatLux or Kephera) that a "baised POV" consists of a) accepting the consensus of the relevant academic community concerning the history of the Golden Dawn, b) using citations that are fully verifiable under Wikipedia polices, because Fiat Lux and Kephera happen to think the information found in those citations is not true. They believe virtually all of the published authors in the relevant academic community are deliberate liars, representing a conspiracy to silence them.
*"exploit ongoing trademark litigation"
This only concerns the "Hermtic Order of the Golden Dawn Inc." sub-article, not the main article. I'm not exactly sure what is meant by this. The one contention they raise that has any bearing on any court case is the reference to Mr. Cicero, the founder of the HOGD Inc., having established his first temple of the Golden Dawn in 1977. Apparently, this date is a matter of dispute in the pending court case. However, the citations come from books in print under major publishing house imprints, which means they are fully verifiable sources under Wikipedia polices. That FiatLux, Kephera, and the organization they belong to (HOGD/A+O) believe what's found in those sources is untrue is irrelevant to whether or not the citation is from a verifiable source, which is the only consideration as far as Wikipedia is concerned.
FiatLux seems to be under the impression that citing information from a source acceptable under WP verifiability policies is going to have some effect on a judge's decision in the case before him. Frankly, this is nonsense. WP articles are not admissible as evidence in a court. The citation refers to books still in print, so if one side of the litigation is going to use anything as evidence, it will be the books themselves, not a print-out of a WP article that merely refers to what's in those books. So this whole "trademark litigation" arguement is a red herring. They simply don't want the information cited from those books (the 1977 date) to be included because they don't happen to think it's true. They have not provided any citation to any verifiable source acceptable under WP guidelines that directly contradicts what's in those citations. They offer only claims made on their own organization's website, and court affidavits submitted by their side in the litigation. The other side of the litigation (HOGD Inc.) has also submitted affidavits that affirm the 1977 date. But neither of those sources are acceptable under WP guidelines. No editor has tried to use affidavits submitted to the court by HOGD Inc. as sources, only the citation to what's in two published books.
Now, if the court, when the case is settled, makes a determination regarding this 1977 date, the court transcript of that decision would be an acceptable source, and it can be added to the article at that time.
*"to advertise legal funds"
I'm unaware of any editor directly referring to the HOGD Inc.'s legal fundraising in the text of the article on the HOGD Inc. itself. But one of the citations made by an editor to the HOGD Inc.'s website links to a page wherein their legal fund is advertised. But the legal fund is not what is being referred to in the cite, but rather other information that happens to be on the same page. What FiatLux and Kephera don't want is a link to that page to be included at all, I assume because they don't like that HOGD Inc., a non-profit religious organization, is attempting to raise donations to help pay their legal expenses. (The HOGD/A+O, on the other hand, is being represented "pro bono" -- for free -- by one of their own members.)
So (in my opinion, of course) all of these points are simply muddying the waters. As I see it the important points that need mediation are the ones I referred to in the above section, "Consensus". To reiterate:
*Is the use of court affidavits, papers or filings made by either side in an ongoing litigation acceptable as verifiable sources under WP policy? I think not, because such sources are, by their very nature, going to be extremely biased toward one side in the litigation.
*A corrolary to the above is the use of JPG scans of contracts, affidavits, or legal papers as sources. Scans of documents are not allowed on WP because they can be easily altered. That they were submitted in a court case is no proof that they have not been altered. That can only be determined by the court hearing the case. To use these kinds of sources is "trying the case in the media", and I am quite sure that Wikipedia does not want court papers from either side of an unsettled court case to be used as sources, and this needs to be addressed in mediation.
*Regarding what he above comment calls "an inordinate amount of citations": they seem to believe that since they purport to be a "secret society", the sources for their claims should be held to a lower standard of verifiability, because they are constrained from revealing their sources due to their policies on "secrecy". But as I understand it, the WP policy on verifiability is non-negotiable. What they seem to be arguing is that since they are thus constrained, it's not their fault that they can't properly cite their sources, but they think without including their unverifiable information the articles will be "biased". But that is their choice and their problem. If it's so important that this unverified information be used as a WP source, they can change their organization's policy on keeping their sources secret. If it is more important to them that they keep their sources secret, they must accept that they cannot use them for citations in a Wikipeida article. They can't have it both ways. So the use of any claims that can only be directly sourced to their own website needs to be addressed in mediation.
*The one source that FiatLux and Kephera have offered that comes from outside of their own organization is a paper by Bruce Wilson supposedly published in an SRIA journal in 1947. However, this paper is not readily available, if at all, according to their own group's leadership. All requests to quote any actual text from this paper here in the Talk section have been rejected (rudely, I think) by FiatLux and Kephera. They say it's up to anyone who disputes the validity of their source to "disprove" that it exists and that it says what they claim it does. I don't understand how this can be considered a reliable, verifiable source. No subsequent history of the Golden Dawn by reputable publishers in the field has ever referenced that paper, much less confirmed what it says. This is a "red flag", according to the WP policy page regarding "exceptional sources". FiatLux and Kephera admit that the Wilson source contradicts the prevailing view in the relevant academic community, which is another "red flag". And they claim there is a conspiracy by the relevant academic community, notably R.A. Gilbert, the most widely published author in the field, to supress and silence them -- another "red flag". So the verifiability of this source needs to be addressed in mediation.
So as I see it, it all comes down to verifiablity -- the use of sources that are by their nature biased (court papers from one side of a case that has not been settled, or claims from one organization's website) or sources that are not, in any reasonable way, available to be checked. Indeed, this does eliminate virtually everything FiatLux and Kephera have tried to edit into the "Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn" article. So I can understand how they might consider this to by "unfair" to them or "biased" against them. But it is the policies and guidelines of Wikipeida itself that are "biased" against the sources they want to use. The personal opinions of other editors are not the issue, because all editors must abide by the same polices and guidelines. - JMax555 17:37, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment on the important comment