Talk:Fall of Suharto

message: After editing the articles Suharto and History of Indonesia and several others, I believe an effort needs to be made to refine existing articles on historical events in Indonesia, and to correct the omissions on English Wikipedia by creating new articles on major events/periods in Indonesian history (e.g. Pre-colonial, Colonial, Post-Independence, Confrontation, 65-66 Civil War etc.).
This would allow the article History of Indonesia be a more general summary-style page (for those who want a broad overview of the area's history), and allow those who wish for greater depth to examine the articles on historical eras/events. That is, those who wish to examine Indonesia under Sukarno could look at a Post-Independence Era page, without being burdened by having to navigate stuff on the Majapahit Empire.
I've started some work, creating an outline (as well as a template that can be applied to History of Indonesia related pages) that can be seen here: Template:History of Indonesia. For an idea of what I believe the target for quality and organization, please take a peek at History of Russia.
I understand this is a long task, and that no one person could be/should be in charge of all this. (Especially not me, since being born/raised in the United States, the sources I have tend to give the buleh view of things.) So I am posting this message on applicable Talk pages, and ask that folks think it over, and if possible offer any help. Especially appreciated would be any folks who could streamline the process by translating related Wikipedia Indonesia articles into English. 
Please steer comments to Wikipedia_talk:Indonesia-related_topics_notice_board. --Daniel 21:36, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestions and Announcement on Category:History of Indonesia and Related Articles

message: I agree with User:Merbabu's deletion of an unreferenced, badly written section on the financial  crisis, but shouldn't there be some discussion of it?  Seems bizarre not to mention it at all in this article. --Dylanfly 14:04, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which section? Can you show a diff? thanks. As a general comment though, Indonesia articles are so badly referenced that now I just remove on-site any unreferenced additions. --Merbabu 14:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's your April 1st edit.  Pretty sloppy, I agree, but there are economic issues to address in the 1998 revolution. --Dylanfly 14:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course there are economic issues. But without WP:RS wikipedia is rubbish. And we all know no-one ever puts references in afterwards. A small amount of reliable info is better than lots of rubbish. :)  --Merbabu 14:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Financial Crisis?

message: By the way, where is the reference you added here? Is it "Indonesia Country Report on Human Rights Practices for 1998"? If so, can you point out which section you used? cheers --Merbabu 14:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a section which reads "The team found that elements of the military had been involved in the riots, some of which were deliberately provoked. It also verified 66 rapes of women, the majority of whom were Sino-Indonesian, as well as numerous other acts of violence against women. The armed forces publicly acknowledged several areas of past human rights violations and launched still ongoing investigations into some of the worst violations..."  That's pretty modest stuff, compared to what the human rights groups allege.  I don't like to rely on the US State department, which has a bad history of lying and distortion.  For the US State dept. to even print stuff like this about a key ally suggests that the reality was far worse.  --Dylanfly 14:35, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, 'allies' come and go - particularly after the cold war. Anyway, I am not questioning the accuracy of the info, rather requesting WP:RS as I explained above. Next time, please either add citation or say you are using an existing citation. cheers --Merbabu 14:47, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good points.  Just added a bit more.  This article could indeed use a lot more professionalism and a lot less unreferenced stuff about "raping little Chinese girls." --Dylanfly 14:52, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it needs a lot of work. --Merbabu 15:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Army role in riots

message: The article's name Indonesian Revolution of 1998 is not quite right. Although it had elements of revolution - rioting, popular protests, fall of an authoritarian leader - it was not quite a revolution in that much of the status quo remained - many would say that even though Suharto resigned 10 years ago, the New Order or elements of it, remain. Further, who else calls it the Indonesian Revolution? I suggest it's a "wikipedia'ism."
We need to find a new name that is more accurate but not point of view - what suggestions? I suggest it takes into account all leading to the resignation of Suharto. ie, July 1996 - or even the early 1990s events, the krismon, thru to Suharto's resignation and the fresh elections.
Some suggestions already discussed amongst a few editors:
* Downfall of Suharto or Fall of Suharto - covers everything, but is is a bit too dramatic/tabloidy for a wikipedia article? 
* Resignation of Suharto - better than above from a POV perspective, but is a bit narrow - it implies the events of 1998 only.
Other thoughts? Let's discuss before we make a change - if a change is indeed needed. --Merbabu (talk) 10:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps Fall of the New Order? Or perhaps Indonesian crisis of 1998. Both have problems of course; elements of the New Order remain, and the events weren't confined to 1998. Of the ones Merbabu has suggested, Fall of Suharto sounds best to me. In any case, a title can't cover everything, only hint at the content. Mostlyharmless (talk) 22:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I'd agree that Fall of Suharto would be a much more fitting name for this event. I was right in downtown Jakarta when this all went down, and "Revolution" seems a bit dramatic considering no one took up arms to fight the establishment. "Reformasi" also works, but I feel it more incorporates the period that included the fall of Suharto, and included the three presidents that followed him. Marine0352 (talk) 16:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article name... 

message: It seems that "Fall of Suharto" is the most favoured from the above discussion, and also previous discussion here. I will change it over if there is no further response within, say, 2 days. I presume that is OK??  regards --Merbabu (talk) 02:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd agree that Fall of Suharto would be a much more fitting name for this event. I was right in downtown Jakarta when this all went down, and "Revolution" seems a bit dramatic considering no one took up arms to fight the establishment. "Reformasi" also works, but I feel it more incorporates the period that included the fall of Suharto, and included the three presidents that followed him. Marine0352 (talk) 16:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fall of Suharto

message: Looking forward to defining the scope of this article a bit, I am proposing the name of this article be changed (among others) to Indonesian crisis of 1997–1998. This allows us to cover economic, social, and political implications of the time period. Economic crisis involves "Krisis Moneter"; social crisis can involve the spike in food prices in 1997; and political crisis involves everything around Suharto. My other recommendation is that the "Dissent" section be limited to only the 20th century and merged with the 1996 PDI incident into a section called "Precursor" or something of that equivalent. Arsonal (talk) 05:57, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Indonesian crisis of 1997–1998

message: The "Riots of May 13-14" section seems to exaggerate the reality of the situation on May 13-14, 1998 in Jakarta. While certain areas of Jakarta including Mangga Dua and Glodok were reported to have a notable lack of a military presence, other areas were so well guarded by heavily armed military and police units that it was still considered relatively safe to go to the mall during the riots. Pondok Indah was one such place guarded by armor units of the Indonesian military, and emerged unscathed. Various media video and photos (several archived on CNN) will support the presence of military and riot police. 
The notable lack of military and police presence mainly was centered around heavily Chinese populated areas of Jakarta. This was the fuel that fed the conspiracy fire asserting the government were using the Chinese as scapegoats to shift blame for the tough economic conditions that helped lead to Indonesia's upheaval. Marine0352 (talk) 16:53, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Riots of May 13-14 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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