Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cricket/Archive 39

message: Both Cricinfo and Cricket Archive are now refering to the Bermudian as Irving. Does anyone object to me moving the page? Crickettragic 13:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If the only sources used call him by one name we should go by that, really. Go for it. AllynJ 17:52, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright I'll go ahead and do it Crickettragic 03:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Irvine Romaine]] 

message: I've been adding to this stub and trying to improve it for about 2/3 weeks now, so I would appreciate it if someone could either review it for me and give me some points on what to improve and/or assist me in improving it further. Thanks Bizzmag 12:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a great sdmirer of John Edrich myself, I'll see what I can do. JH (talk page) 16:44, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My first reaction is that the article is now much more than a stub, so the first thing I'll do is "destub" it. JH (talk page) 18:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've had an initial run through it, copyediting and expanding it in a few places. I've tried to tone down some of the rather POV language (terms like "brilliant" aren't supposed to be used unless you've some hard evidence to justify them). Though his 310* against NZ was his biggest innings, in view of the weakness of their attack I don't think he would regard it as his best, but would regard some of his efforts against Australia more highly. Some areas still need further expansion. The coverage of his Test career rather tails off after 1965, and there's not all that much on his county career (eg being a member of the side that won the Championship in 1971). Also his successful opening partnerships with Boycott for England and with Micky Stewart and then Mike Edwards for Surrey should be mentioned. JH (talk page) 18:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks a lot, I've tried as hard as i can to be as factual and relevant as possible, but Edrich is long before my time so I've never seen or heard of him until i started expanding the article therefore i have no personal knowledge of him. I've noticed that a lot of England captains up to about the 1980s don't seem to be very large or reliable either. Perhaps a future collaboration maybe? Bizzmag 19:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[John Edrich]] 

message: There are a couple of entries on Talk:W._G._Grace about WG's career totals according to Wisden and the ACS.
My take on this is that it is not a Wisden v ACS dispute but history v statistics.  In such a case, history must prevail.  We cannot rewrite history, even if it is numerically incorrect.  We can only add a caveat to the statistics to explain that another source thinks the numbers add up to a different total.  Statistics are merely a means of summarising or illustrating history.
This means that where WG is concerned, we must defer to Wisden.  --BlackJack | talk page 07:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WG Grace's career totals 

message: There seem to currently be 484 articles in that category. If there were a reasonable number, then people might set to work on them, but as it is they are more likely to think that it would be a waste of time, as there's no prospect of making substantial inroads when there are so many. Can't the list be pruned to a more manageable number of articles? JH (talk page) 21:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you psychic? --BlackJack | talk page 21:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm - just commented on this below. I've noticed that a lot of List of X Test players type articles are missing too. –MDCollins (talk) 23:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles needing urgent attention 

message: When adding leading batsmen and bowlers to season pages, I am not entirely sure which ruling I should use to determine the batsmen and bowlers with the best average. Currently I am using the Wisden ruling which states 8 completed innings for batsmen and 10 wickets in 10 games for bowlers. Should I continue with this, or is there a Wikipedia ruling I am unfamiliar with? Thanks Schumi555 09:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems sensible to me. –MDCollins (talk) 10:52, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done a few of these and have arbitrarily upped the ante to 10 innings and 20 wickets to stop one performance with bat or ball (often on a dodgy pitch or in a lesser game) distorting the figures. I've also included the touring team stats in these tables, but kept a minimum of five domestic players, so in the 1948 English cricket season, for instance, there are rather a lot of batsmen in the table just because the Australian tourists were so good that season. And I've done aggregate as well as average tables. But these are just my arbitrary decision: there are no rules here. Johnlp 11:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Batting and bowling averages 

message: The peer review for the Kenya national cricket team has stagnated though the article looks to be in good shape. If anyone wants to contribute, feel free.Blackhole77  talk | contrib  19:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kenya national cricket team/Peer review 

message: Hi,
Does this histogram ":Image:CricketBattingStrikeRateHistogram.gif" mean anything to anyone? It is linked on the strike rate article, but is it somebody's personal career strike rate (if so whose?), and as there is no key on it, it seems pretty meaningless to me. 
Any ideas?
–MDCollins (talk) 22:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You could ask User:Dmmaus who created it in early 2005 and it still an active participant, though not seen around these parts as often as in the past, which is a shame as his contributions were always welcome. Johnlp 22:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Strike rate]] 

message: Is this notable or should it be sent to AFD? GizzaDiscuss © 09:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It sounds made up to me. Speedy deletion, never mind AFD. Andrew nixon 10:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Last Man Stands]] 

message: Hi everyone. Pulled some things together to make the above. Hope that's okay! I'm sure it will get expanded as the sport grows. SGGH speak! 20:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Women's Twenty20 cricket]] 

message: First class player David Ash up for deletion here  Nick mallory 01:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some people really need to do some research before nominating! Andrew nixon 11:28, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cricketers up for deletion 

message: Apropos of absolutely nothing, does anyone know why umpires raise their index finger to indicate 'out'?  I know that tennis players do the same thing to indicate the ball was out, but that's obviously just copied from cricket.  In the Olympics of Ancient Greece a boxer could surrender by raising a single finger, maybe it's from that? Nick mallory 04:45, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be nice to know (and for this information to be added onto Umpire (cricket)) the origin of all umpiring signals. BlackJack may know. GizzaDiscuss © 09:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The umpire's raised finger 

message: User:Raven4x4x's batting graphs have inspired User:Masai 162 to create an equivalent for bowlers. While I believe they will be very beneficial, I feel the colour coding for the number of wickets in somewhat complicated. Examples of bowling graphs Masai has created are listed on his user page. I will be looking forward to see everyone else's opinion. Thanks GizzaDiscuss © 07:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I am moderately-severe red-green and moderately red-blue colourblind, but I see 6-9 as the same colour, with 5 and 10 as quite similar also. Admittedly, it is very rare that bowlers take that many wickets but it is a thought i guess. Ansell 21:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User talk:Masai 162#Bowling graphs]] 

message: Just saw a couple of minutes of today's ODI on SKY. Anyone know what the icon in the bottom right hand corner of the screen is for? It looks like a pint of beer. --Dweller 13:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From that, I guess that you were in the pub? Andrew nixon 14:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Boom boom. No, actually, there's a screen at work. --Dweller 16:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I was being serious. There is "pint of beer" logo on Sky sports when you watch it in pubs! It must be something to do with having a business subscription as opposed to a residential subscription. Andrew nixon 16:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can confirm, if you watch sky in a public place without a beer glass on the screen they are being illegal! Joe p15 17:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And if you watch Sky in a public place without a beer glass in your hand, then you're missing the whole point... Johnlp 20:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Fortunately, this doesn't happen down under, yet. :) GizzaDiscuss © 09:49, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am down under, and Channel Nine always has a logo up, all the channels do, even SBS.  The only time they take the watermark down is during the adverts (of course) which is the only time it might possibly be useful in telling channels apart.  SBS now plays repetitive drum music under its athletics coverage too so muzak during the games will be next.  Thank god for TMS. Nick mallory 02:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was referring specifically to the "beer" logo found in pubs and clubs. Yes there is the commercial networks's logo but that's another story... GizzaDiscuss © 04:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sky coverage 

message: TexasAndroid has nominated the India_vs_England_2007_Cricket_Series for deletion because an individual cricket series doesn't merit its own article.  Nick mallory 13:05, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well frankly as it stands its not worth having it. Think I might do a bit of expansion. --LiamE 13:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a duplicate of the real article Indian cricket team in England in 2007.  His point is that it should go not because it's a duplicate, but because the tour itself isn't notable. Nick mallory 13:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I noticed that and have redirected it accordingly. --LiamE 13:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Best deletion debate ever! 

message: Finally there are some new Namibian cricketers for me to look at, six players debuting for the Under 19 team against Kenya in the Africa Under-19 Championship. This list is just to remind me when and if I find the time to write up some notes on the National Championship.
Raymond van Schoor | Ashley van Rooi | Helao Ya France | Claude Bouwer | Sean Silver | Tiaan Louw
These are merely for my own reference but I know I'm going to come see this page soon in the future. Sorry for using others' space if they were expecting something to be written here for the benefit of others apart from myself. Raymond van Schoor is an interesting case, he is a relation of Melt and the former captain of the Under-15 and Under-17 team. Let's see how many of these play tomorrow's game against Zambia. Bobo. 16:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: NB, several players have been deleted for playing only in Under-19 competitions, even the Under-19 world cup. I'm undecided on the issue, but the consensus seems to be developing that first-class or List A is required for keeping the article. Stephen Turner (Talk) 20:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the notification, Stephen. I might leave these be for now but I have made a complete list of the tournament's debutants thus far on my Sandbox. One such name, Raymond van Schoor, has an interesting past in the Namibian cricket team but until now has not broken into the Under-19s. Bobo. 01:57, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This link appears to agree with my latest findings that T Louw's first name (unavailable on Cricket Archive), is in fact Tiaan Louw. Adapted in links. Bobo. 16:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Namibian cricketers 

message: Snapped 359 pictures for wikipedia at a domestic Pro 40 game this evening, but who the heck is this? It's really annoying me! Please someone message me telling me who it is so I can put it on his article! SGGH speak! 22:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be Charles Colville. No article on wikipedia yet. He never played at a high level either.Andrew nixon 22:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, and this is David Masters right? SGGH speak! 22:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is this? 

message: Hi, I strongly recommed this project to give your notabilty guidelines for a new notabilty proposal that I'm creating on my userpage, once it is completed, I will move to wikipedia namespace for the community to decide. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 22:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Jaranda/Notabilty (sports)]] 

message: http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/ci/content/current/story/308994.html
It has been proposed that the South African rebel tours of the 1980's are given first-class status. If this happens then we will need to do alot of updating ...... Crickettragic 22:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No updating needed. All three of our stats sources; Cricket Archive, Cricinfo and Wisden already regard the matches as first-class. It's only the ICC who don't! Andrew nixon 05:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought Cricinfo didn't, but the other two did, for some reason. Indeed, I certainly remember some major discrepancies on Cricinfo re: South African players in that era. Hmm. AllynJ (talk | contribs) 07:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's mainly players who played in the non-white competitions. They were upgraded to first-class, but cricinfo didn't change their records. Andrew nixon 09:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Something to keep an eye on 

message: Paul Nixon, and from memory Matt Prior I think, had no WP:CRIC tag on their talk pages. Just a heads-up that a number of significant cricket articles might be missing the project tag. Perhaps you might want to get a bot to tag with WP:CRIC any article in the category "cricket" an its subcats? SGGH speak! 21:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing tags 

message: Can we come to some sort of consensus on this, as I'm getting rather annoyed with it. I'd like to propose a poll, but I'd like other people's opinions on what the choices should be. I'm thinking they should be: Keep, Delete or Keep but have them automatically collapsed. I still don't see the point in them either. Andrew nixon 09:20, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We already had a straw poll here. It was pretty much 50-50, on the condition that they were all collapsed, which hasn't happened. I think if the supporters of these boxes won't do the work to collapse them all, the boxes should be removed. Stephen Turner (Talk) 10:34, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cricket bot? --Dweller 09:15, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd happily remove them all with CricketBot. I'm not sure how easy it would be to make them all hideable and wrap them in a  if there is more than one, as discussed at the previous discussion. To be honest, I really dislike them and I'm reluctant to spend a lot of time doing anything other than removing them. Stephen Turner (Talk) 11:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  World cup squad templates (again) 

message: :Continuation of discussion now archived
Subhaan, before you make more tables, such as Sachin Tendulkar - I was not only pointing out the severe effort required to duplicate the information readily available elsewhere, but the sheer article space it takes up will almost certainly be detrimental to a good/FA candidate (the ultimate aim for articles). Also, if other editors don't really like them, I would rather you spent your time improving the text and prose of articles rather than in creating tables. –MDCollins (talk) 10:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of Test/ODI century tables to bios 

message: A user, David Gerard, has been replacing all instances of :Image:cricket no pic.png with :Image:Replace this image1.svg. I've complained at User talk:David Gerard because of the problems we've had with this approach in the past.
Stephen Turner (Talk) 19:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can probably revert them pretty easily with CricketBot, although I'm extremely short of time at the moment. Stephen Turner (Talk) 09:15, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  cricket no pic.png 

message: As we approach the 2007 Twenty20 World Champs, there have been practice matches between international sides. In particular there is a Quadrangular Series between Bangladesh, Pakistan, Kenya and Uganda ending to a close as I write this.
Now the matches between BAN, PAK and KEN have been recognised as T20 International matches in Cricinfo's Statguru section (http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/index.html?class=3), however where do figures obtained against the like of Uganda go? I thought they'd fall under the first class equivalent of Twenty20 international - Twenty20.
Madbassist 13:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume so too. The ICC has certainly announced that only teams with ODI status get to play official T20I's. So I presume that Kenya vs Uganda, say, has the status of a domestic T20 match (luckily for Kenya!). Stephen Turner (Talk) 14:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: CricketArchive says otherwise: the tour homepage says they're "misc" matches, which means no IT20 or domestic T20 status. Presumably this is because Uganda - as a national team - don't have FC status outside of the Intercontinental Cup (see: the only FC matches played by the current Ugandan captain). This is simply an assumption I'm making, though, and I could be wrong. AllynJ (talk | contribs) 15:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Allyn has it right. Andrew nixon 19:51, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I imagine that their status will be similar to Kerry Packer's World Series Cricket. GizzaDiscuss © 06:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Twenty20 Internationals 

message: Found this when patrolling CSD. Speedy? AfD? --Dweller 13:24, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: IANAA, but it looks like a speedy to me. Stephen Turner (Talk) 15:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Crickfacts]] 

message: Apologies if this has been discussed, but compare Ian Botham and Don Bradman. Botham's single-season stay with Queensland is listed as "1987–1988", which makes it look a bit like two English seasons rather than the single 1987-88 Australian season. However, Bradman's dates for NSW, for example, are given as "1927/28–1933/34". Following that style, Botham would have been listed as "1987/88". Is there a consensus for which should be used? Loganberry (Talk) 23:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion, the years should be listed as dates rather than seasons, therefore if Bradman first played in 1927, it should say that as to the untrained eye it looks more accurate than 1927/8. That's certainly how I've worked it so far. We can leave seasons to Cricketarchive - afterall, it is a waste of time trying to duplicate that. The column header says 'years' not 'seasons', therefore I would put the year of the first/last matches as a date range rather than a season range. Incidentally, if Botham didn't play until the second half of the 1987/88 season, I would put it as 1988. If there is consensus to do otherwise, then I'll not argue it, but that's my thoughts anyway. –MDCollins (talk) 23:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say the opposite. The cricket season is much more relevant than the calendar year. Maybe the header should say years, not seasons. It is worth making a distinction between one season in Australia (1987/88) and two seasons in England (1987-1988). JPD (talk) 09:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New bio infobox - inconsistencies in the "Domestic team information" section 

message: A little bit of a debate here. I'm sure I'm right, but can someone have a look at my references and check for me? Andrew nixon 09:51, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  China women's team 

message: This image has (as seen on the image page) been marked for deletion on the grounds of invalid fair use rationale. I think the problem is that to comply with the fair use criteria, a separate rationale would have to be completed for every single article on which the image is used, and as it's used on every article that includes the squad template...! I'm sure I saw somewhere that tags are not allowed to use non-free images in any case. Either way, I don't think the Leics squad template can justify using the club logo. Loganberry (Talk) 00:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, I think there's trouble brewing here.  I would think that the only article that would qualify for fair use of this logo is the article about Leicestershire County Cricket Club and absolutely nowhere else.  I note that the image is used in dozens of articles and, in the case of season overviews, other CCC images are used.  I would advocate removing all instances of the use of the flag other than in the County articles, and the addition of which article each fair use rationale is relevant to for each image.  Otherwise we'll find a lot of deleted images all of a sudden... This is a big problem... The Rambling Man 06:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

text: The same has occurred for the Kent logo. JH (talk page) 09:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed it from the template but it (and all other county logos) need to be removed from all but the county pages.  Volunteers? The Rambling Man 09:33, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done for the county pages, still a few to go though.All done. All images for all counties now only link to the county's page (with the exception of Sussex, which also links to Coat of arms of Sussex). AMBerry (talk | contribs) 10:4612:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. I think it's extremely important that we do our best to keep to the non-free-image rules, even though it can be frustrating in a case like this. Though for different reasons, it's a somewhat similar case to our chronic lack of player photos: we could make the pages look nicer by using Cricinfo/county photos, but not while staying within policy - and policy trumps attractiveness. Loganberry (Talk) 15:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Image:Leicestershire logo.jpg]] in [[:Template:Leicestershire County Cricket Club Squad]] 

message: I have nominated the Bradman article for PR, but it's still a work in progress. I would like to focus on the footnotes and adding cns, if needed. It might be helpful if someone can archive the discussion at the article's talk page, I'm not sure how to do it. 
Cheers, Phanto282 06:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Archived, just for you Phanto.  The Rambling Man 06:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  PR for [[Donald Bradman|Bradman]] 

message: It may be that I can't see the wood for the trees, but I don't think there is an article about cricket in schools.  The development of the game in the English public schools has been quite important, especially in the provision of good players to Oxbridge.  Is anyone aware of a schools article as I might start one if not?  Does anyone have any suggestions about categories for such an article: I presume Forms of cricket might be one or perhaps Domestic competitions? --Fiddlers Three 16:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schools cricket 

message: The "Notable 20th and 21st century players and topics without an article" part of the To-do list here has a redlink for Joe Maddock (rugby player). What is his relevance to cricket? Cricinfo finds only two Maddocks, neither a Joe. Loganberry (Talk) 22:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He's presumably this chap. Not much sign of a cricketing career. He was added to the to-do list by an IP editor who is, I think, the mischievous person who has added all manner of "interesting" facts to cricket bios over the past year or so, and also has a habit of creating biographies, mainly of New Zealanders, on talk pages. We haven't had much of this mischief for a while, so maybe Joe Maddock has spared us that. I'll remove him from the list. Johnlp 22:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is Joe Maddock? 

message: I was thinking about converting the cricket team templates to use the parameterised  template... except I've noticed that there's a separate set of templates for the World Cup... i.e.  instead of .  Why were two sets of templates needed?  Unless there's a reason not to do this, I will convert use of the  set to , but I think I need some explanation before I substitute any use of the  set. --StuartBrady (Talk) 17:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, well, they've all been converted now, so I just hope there was no reason for having two sets of templates. --StuartBrady (Talk) 01:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah I think that may have been an error by me quite a while back. I made the -styled templates after being unsuccessful in finding any similar existing templates. After I started using it in a few articles I then somehow came across a project page listing out existing -styled templates. Unfortunately by then the use of the new template had spread and we ended up having two of the same templates hanging around the entire site. Sorry for that, but thanks for finally introducing a new template. It'll make life a hell of a lot easier if we ever need to change the flag links or anything else. mdmanser 02:36, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It seems fairly typical for this sort of template to be poorly documented (and poorly maintained, too).  What seems to happen quite often is that new templates get created, but they're not added to the appropriate categories and template lists — at least the 'ENGc'-style set was (mostly) categorised!  As for introducing the new template, you can thank Andrwsc for that, although it is nice to know that my sed scripting is not altogether unappreciated. :-)  I do agree, it'll be much easier to change certain things (such as flag sizes and borders) if we need to... and it is quite easy to keep  and  consistent! --StuartBrady (Talk) 11:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well on that note I'll now thank Andrwsc officially. Great work to both of you! mdmanser 12:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to note that I have been a bit WP:BOLDer and lazier lately...  After Stuart and I replaced every instance of all the old templates, I went ahead and speedy deleted them.  I don't think anybody will be too fussed about that, but I thought I should mention it here, albeit after the fact!  Andrwsc 15:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I created the original cr-eng templates ages ago, so say thanks for the improvement.  I see Wikipedia:WikiProject Cricket/Team templates is updated also.  Good work. —Moondyne 16:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  National team templates