Talk:Afshar experiment/Archive 29

message: Dear Mediator, please answer to this question. Why you tolerate the fact that any topic Afshar thinks suitable for this discussion must be allowed, and all his complaints of what others are discussing, should be satisfied. What is the relevance between the newly bringed by Afshar stuff on prof. Smarandache, the mafia, the arXiv blacklistings, the page taxes, etc., and Afshar's article? Why noone objects Afshar and warns him to stop? Can't everyone see that all this is irrelevant to this discussion, and that Afshar provokes, by insulting people. I am being constantly involved to reply because Afshar insults someone. Afshar please stop! And let someone [the mediator] explain to Afshar that the no personal attack is valid for all participants. Thanks. Danko Georgiev MD 08:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Afshar, please don't mention my name, and you will not see me in the future on any page where you are having a discussion. If you don't like me, please don't contact me, and do not adress messages to me. Danko Georgiev MD 08:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Everything I have said is based on cited sources, and directly relevant to the evaluation debate on reliability of sources for material used in the article. "Afshar, please don't mention my name" Rest assured I derive no pleasure from mentioning your name, however, I will expose lies, vandalism, OR and any other unsavory behavior by you to as many individuals and authorities as necessary, as long as you perpetrate them (without even once apologizing for any of them.) You've certainly got some cheek to come back here after all the despicable insults you've lobbed on my person, and being put on probations which you've broken time after time. Goodbye. -- Prof. Afshar 13:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

text:  Afshar, don't offend others, as you see this is not good way to lead a discussion. The fact that you are author of Afshar's experiment is understandable, yet this does not give you rights to behave as if this article is under your possesion. Indeed good Wikipedia advice is that you leave others edit the article that discusses your work. You can never be neutral for your own work, that is why noone in the court is allowed to be judge of his own relatives if prosecution has been made. Danko Georgiev MD 06:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ummm...I'll stay out of this. Sdirrim 15:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why Afshar is allowed to bring any topic he likes??? 

message: This situation is untenable. OR in #4 must be removed ASAP. No reliable source has been provided. Danko's "paper" has been published in "Progress in Physics" (PP) a journal of disrepute due to its publication of papers on violations of special relativity. No one in the physics community takes the "journal" seriously. I have discussed PP above and have provided evidence for its lack of reliability. Such terrible sourcing and outright fallacies make Wikipedia look like a joke. It was placed in the article without a discussion, and must thus be removed immediately until a final decision is made as to its reliability. This problem needs to be addressed by the Mediator ASAP. Thanks. P.S. Please pay particular attention to guidelines set by Jimmy Wales (Wikpedia founder): To ensure something is not OR, you should provide evidence that it "has been published in reputable journals or by reputable publishers." No such evidence has been provided thus far. Also see Reliable Sources. -- Prof. Afshar 01:46, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Afshar, stop offending the journal "Progress In Physics". As your interpretations on the content seem to imply that "Foundations of Physics" is as good, as Stefan Marinov has published 4 times in "Foundations of Physics", while the article in PP is "post-humous" and is published as a memorial for the tragic suicide of Marinov.  Danko Georgiev MD 09:21, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

text: *As I discussed at length before, Marinov had several legitimate publications in the 70's in respectable journals like PLA and Found. Phys. yet he later kept pushing crank ideas like perpetual motion machines and absolute motion. To promote his already debunked ideas in a memorial article in PP is in fact worse than Marinov's original attempts. Do you care to explain why exactly he committed suicide? The reason is plain and simple: he tragically succumbed to the rejection from the mainstream physics community that aptly denied him the platform to promote his faulty ideas. This whole issue is a sordid affair, and I do not wish to talk about an individual that has passed away, yet there is not clearer case of carckpottery in 21st century and its promotion than that of Marinov and PP.-- Prof. Afshar 12:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Afshar, what about your "violation of complementarity/math consistency"? Did anyone start to offend the journal who published your work? If noone offends the journal where you publish, please be kind not to offend journals and people that you don't even know. p.s. I am glad to have informed some of the relevant people, about your claims, and have been kind to send them exact quotations, and web links of yours. Danko Georgiev MD 09:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By all means. I look forward to have a discussion with them regarding their paranoid statements about the "scientific Mafia" and bans from arXiv physics pages. If they want to be taken seriously, they should clean their house and avoid publishing absolute nonsense on violations of special relativity, memorial or not. They push fringe ideas on detection of gravitational waves, Aether, all of which would be considered major discoveries, yet no physicist considers them worth reading. Perhaps we are all card carrying members of the "International Mafia" and Einstein's mafia PP's editor believes in. Just scroll down in http://www.physics.smu.edu/~pseudo/websites.html to "Progress in Physics" entry for the opinion of some of the other academic co-conspirators! Prof. Afshar 11:43, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Due to lack of action by Mediator, I removed the OR from the article. If anyone wishes to repost it, they he/she must provide reputable peer-reviewed sources. The OR was placed in the article without a discussion, and weeks of discussion seems to have made no improvements in the article. If anyone wants to engage in an edit war, let's roll. Bring in an admin. as the Mediator seems not to act once he comes to a decision. Enough of OR and misleading OR pushing. --Prof. Afshar 14:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have rolled back the article.  Let the mediator act as we agreed.  Also Afshar is not permitted to edit the article, as has been extensively previously discussed. I suspect the mediator is waiting for us to reach a consensus. --Michael C. Price talk 12:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will remove OR period. The Mediator is indecisive, and unqualified, vacillating between one decision and the opposite. The disputed text was posted without a discussion, and should be removed until it is shown its thesis is discussed in a reputable peer-reviewed journal. The burden of proof relies by the advocates of the text. Speaking of consensus, do you regard "Progress in Physics" a reliable source? If so provide your reasoning, and no beating around the bush this time please. There must be a distinction between respected journals and fringe pseudoscience. -- Prof. Afshar 12:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Afshar, you know that conflict of interest issues forbid you from editting the article. --Michael C. Price talk 12:30, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My only interest is upholding Wiki rules. Unreliably sourced must be removed period. You want to involve and admin? Let's roll. -- Prof. Afshar 12:50, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Afshar, please don't go too far. Your offence of the Mediator with the words "The Mediator is indecisive, and unqualified, vacillating between one decision and the opposite" and then you take the JUSTICE in your own hands. I think this is not how Wikipedia works. I have voted above for you to be put on probabtion this time I will vote for you to be banned from editting your article. I hope others will vote below so that you will not be allowed to modify yourself no section of the article of your experiment. My vote is: BAN. Danko Georgiev MD 09:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An of course many Editors have voted for you to be Banned two weeks ago for reasons described in the following section: "Request for Danko to be banned from editing this article and contributing to the talk page". You can't fool all the people all the time. -- Prof. Afshar 14:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unreliable sources in disputed text #4

message: I just realized that Danko had removed the following statment from the Specific critiques section without a debate. Without it, it is highly unbalanced, and one-sided, giving the false impression that I have left such critiques without responses. Mediator, please restore the text below in the Specific critiques section:
"Afshar's rebuttals are available on his Q&A archiveAfshar's weblog and FAQ.Afshar's FAQ "
:Question: is this reliable source? Peer-reviewed journals are called "not reputable" by Afshar, but his own blog pages are to be considered reputable?? (Afshar, if you did not mention my name, I wouldn't be here, remember?)Danko Georgiev MD 05:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If other Blogs (Motl, Unruh) are to remain, so should the archival one that responds to them remain to keep an NPOV. Danko, if you had not vandalized the article, I wouldn't utter your name. -- Prof. Afshar 11:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *The above text removed by vandalism, has been restored in the interest of neutrality. -- Prof. Afshar 14:30, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have rolled back the article.  Let the mediator act as we agreed.  Also Afshar is not permitted to edit the article, as has been extensively previously discussed. --Michael C. Price talk 12:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nonsense. As an internationally recognized expert on the topic, I have every right to edit the article given the extensive discussion we have had. Especially if the likes of Danko can put OR in the article without a debate. Bring in an expert admin and get this ridiculous edit war over. This is taking too long, all the while the egregious errors remain in the article misleading countless lay readers. This ends now.-- Prof. Afshar 12:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia's editorial policy is of course explictly based on being able to verify that someone has said something  and NOT on the truth of what they have said. 1Z 15:21, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's vote on Afshar being able to edit the article. It's just ridiculous that he is stopped from editing the article - especially when he's stopped by people who write rubbish, who circle around Wikipedia policy simply by claiming their contribution is NPOV and not OR, (when it obviously is) - who argue against voting but then want to enforce such mediation when it suits them.  --Carl A Looper 02:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I vote let Afshar edit the article. --Carl A Looper 02:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your vote is irrelevant.  Wikpedia policy is quite clear that no one should edit an article in which they have a vested interest.  This has been discussed before on this talk page. --Michael C. Price talk 08:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please cite the policy correctly. Editors with a real or potential conflict of interest are "strongly discouraged" from editing and asked to "exercise great caution" when doing so, but they are not forbidden to do so. --Art Carlson 15:36, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Specific critiques

message: As I read the discussion, most editors agree that the "disputed piece #4" is not based on sources that are themselves considered reliable and does not represent the views of prominent critics. Although this material would not ordinarily be suitable for Wikipedia, there is also the sentiment, shared by myself, that an effort should be made to represent the state of the criticism as completely as possible, even if that means using somewhat questionable sources. I think a reasonable compromise is to put some of this information in a footnote. This solution can certainly be discussed and eventually overthrown, but from the arguments presented, it is definitely closer to Wiki policy than the status quo. In the process I also removed the quotes since they simply stated the conclusion without explaining how it was arrived at. If anyone seriously objects to this move, please give your reasons succinctly here. I do not consider the extended inaction of the "mediator" to be a valid argument. --Art Carlson 16:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an amicable solution from my point of view. At some point however, the OR should be removed completely. Regards.-- Prof. Afshar 17:31, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed piece #4 condensed and moved to footnote 

message: Am removing the ongoing debate section altogether - for a number of reasons:
1. Votes by various editors.
2. Demonstrateable OR (despite MP's claim to the contrary)
3. If it represents an ongoing debate it is only one between Michael and myself. A more robust and sensible debate is represented by the papers in the specific critiques section.
--Carl A Looper 02:51, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Carl, you have deleted some of the reference note via your edit - so some references look empty, one of Drezet, Unruh, etc. Please go back and repair the reference style as needed, so that there are no "orphan" refs. As you have destroyed the ref information, I think it is your duty to repair these. Danko Georgiev MD 06:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good grief. Ok. --Carl A Looper 06:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

text:  I don't get it. I didn't touch the reference section at all. Ok. Will need to revert Onging section and work it out from there. --Carl A Looper 06:37, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

text:  Ok. I think I get it now. The original references were embedded in the Ongoing debate section, and the reference section contained the links back to the debate section. I'll see what I can do. --Carl A Looper 06:51, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok I've restored the ongoing debate section in order to restore the references. I think I'll just leave it there for the time being till I work out how it's cross referenced and how it can be removed without removing the references! --Carl A Looper 07:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

text: While awaiting final deletion of the entire Ongoing debate section I've partially "deconflated" Michael's argument so that the first part does not run into and become "naturalised" by the second part. Furthermore I've given prominance to the quotes and less prominance to Michael's paraphrasing. --Carl A Looper 01:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok. I've put back clearer counter arguments and removed Michael's name from his arguments. --Carl A Looper 02:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ongoing debate 

message: Dear Carl, and others. I agree that Afshar can edit the article, as far as, he does not insert personal offences on other authors. Afshar has claimed himself "expert in the field" and then edits the article by offending others like prof. T. Qureshi, who is really great scientist, has numerous contributions to QM, has shown that Afshar makes simple error in calculations, and has his article accepted in peer-reviewed journal, so let us peacufully expect this event (publication of Qureshi's work), and do not offend each others. Concerning the Progress in Physics, this is official article, peer-reviewed and published in the standard procedures, if Afshar wants to send rebuttal etc., he is free to do so, yet Wikipedia is NOT the place for PARTISAN WARS. Let us be solidary with each other and let Afshar edit the article, but as I said above, as far as he does not offend other people. Regards, Danko Georgiev MD 06:18, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Until and unless OR contained in the old disputed text # 4 is published in a reputable peer-reviewed journal, it should be removed from the article page. If the text remains in the footnotes, at the very least, the statement qualifying the status of the DQD "papers" (such as the one by Art Carlson) should remain to remind the readers of the lack of  general support in physics community for their argument. As far as I know, no respectable journal would publish Qureshi's false and erroneous arguments. As for PP, we know what kind of a "journal" it is, the very fact that one ends up "publishing" in such a "journal" is rebuttal enough! -- Prof. Afshar 07:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Afshar, If I look above, I see only your offences, and I see no real argument against PP being good and reputable journal. Did the readers of Wikipedia need Afshar's approval of journals, if so, then post your request in Wiki, and by-the-way give us a list of all "Afshar's reputable" journals, just to know where to publish in the future. I guess at the very moment prof. Qureshi's paper appears, then the place will be also "Afshar's disreputable journal". Did someone ask you why Phys. Rev. Letts. REJECTED your manuscript? Did anyone ask why two other journals rejected it also, before appearing in Found. Phys. where traditionally violations of relativity articles are published - see Wesley, Foundations of Physics, Vol. 10, Nos. 5/6, 1980, 503-511 on Michelson-Morley, and other papers. Danko Georgiev MD 08:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Afshar's vandalism 

message: Well, all wiki-editors can read and judge for themselves. Curent text points to "e-prints" however my article has been released in reputable peer-review journal. If one is to be objective, then this must be incorporated and repaired. One must also remove any label on the authors. To classify who is notable, who is good scientist and who is bad scientist is not the topic in the main article. P.s. My article is indeed the first reputable source on Unruh's experiment, announcement about possible reply from Unruh, is also done on Progress In Physics web page http://www.ptep-online.com/index_files/issues.html Danko Georgiev MD 06:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PP is reputable?! It publishes violations of known physical laws right and left. See above discusions on the issue.-- Prof. Afshar 07:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update of Progress in Physics article