Talk:Finnic mythologies

message: This section is to talk about the relations between Baltic-Finnic and Sami mythologies, aiming to make the article better. Please talk about other subjects in other sections!
===Shamanism===
Shamanism is a key element in Sami mythology, but there are only a few traces of shamanism amongst the Baltic Finns. The Finnish "tietäjä", a wise person and often a healer, is often translated to English as "shaman" (in the lack of a better term), but in Finnish study these terms are separate. Many who compare Finnish culture to "true" shamanistic cultures have pointed out the fact that there are no documents about Finnish or Karelian shaman drums. Shaman drum is a key element in shamanism, a tool to reach trance, a state of consciousness in which shamanistic rituals are performed.
Martti Haavio, one of the most prominent figures in the study of Finnish mythology, has found only one possible historic document about the actual practice of Baltic Finnic shamanism (Suomalainen mytologia 1967). This is a report made around 1650s by a priest about pagan paractices in Kemi-Lapland. The priest writes to his colleagues that witches who live in cottages sometimes sing and fall on ground to "see". Haavio interprets these withces as Karelians and their activity as shamanistic trance; seeing the spirit world. There is also one mentioning from year 1938 that one fine type of drums from Lapland has no Sami name, but a Finnish name only. Haavio interprets this as a possible evidence that there might have been Finnish shaman drums. However the year 1938 was a bit too late to find ancient features of Finnish folk culture, that had already been modernizer. But it was a good time for politically motivated claims.
Anna-Leena Siikala, the most prominent "proponent" of Finnish shamanism, also admits that Finnish mythology and culture are not historically known to have been truly shamanistic, but she thinks the culture of the ancestors of Finns has been closer to real shamanism at some (unspecified?) era. Her great book "Suomalainen shamanismi" ("Finnish shamanism", 1996) has a suggestive name, but its not trying to "proof" that Finnish mythology was shamanistic. The book searches traces of shamanism in Finnish mythology.
I don't know much about the state of affairs of possible shamanism amongst the Estonians. Maybe somebody else could tell more about that? 
New revolutionary information is always welcome, but unless such emerges, I suggest that we make a clear separation between Sami and Baltic-Finnic mythologies, at least in this very important part. Maybe we should not confuse the reader by talking about anything "Finno-Lappic" in the field of mythology, unless we clearly specify the "Finno-Lappic" feature that we are currently talking about. 193.65.112.51 (talk) 20:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The question has been addressed several times on this talk page. But since you brought it up again, "Finnish Shamanism" could definitely use some more attention in the article since there are plenty of sources available in English that look into the subject. Now, regarding the new title, since it has changed back to Finno-Ugrig Mythologies once again, the editors responsible for changing the title would need to add the Og-Ugric and Ugric mythologies to the article, otherwise the title change is not justified and needs to be rolled back according to the content.--Termer (talk) 20:42, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please keep the discussion on the subject of this thread. 193.65.112.51 (talk) 20:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, I'm willing to update the Finnish section with Finnish Shamanism in utmost detail as soon as I can. Since finland.com claims that The ancient Finnish magicians and shamans were famous for their skills it seems like an important subject. But first things first since Finnish Shamanism has secondary importance at the moment. those who have been advocating the inclusion of Ob-Ugric mythology in here would need to help out with updating the article according to their subject of interest so that the content would mach the title.--Termer (talk) 21:21, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem once again to ignore the most concrete, ground level proof and evidence for the sake of an existence of claims and arguments. There are claims and agruments for almost anything, and its important to evaluate and compare the trustfullness and relevancy of different claims. There are surely many who wants to claim that there was a strong historic culture of Finnish shamanism. For example the page you mention now is trying to advertise Finland for tourism. Of course such page wants to create an image of Finland as exotic as possible. Many others are politically or religiously motivated; motivations including Greater Finland, Finske Fare, Germanic supremacy and Finnish Neo-Paganism. The fact only is that there is an existence of some sort of traces of shamanism in Finnish mythology, and a very few uncertain historic documents. There has been shamanism amongst the ancestors of Finns, as there has been shamanism amongst the ancestors of every people. We were all hunter-gatherers at some point of the past. For example one form or trace of Norse shamanism was Seid , which name is related to Sami sieidi tradition. But should we talk about Norse-Lappic mythology because of that and many other relations between Sami and Norse myths? I dont think so. Some sort of traces of shamanism are almost universal in traditional cultures. These traces does not justify to call the most of the cultures of world as shamanistic cultures. Tuohirulla puhu 09:36, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

text: there has been shamanism amongst the ancestors of every people. We were all hunter-gatherers at some point of the past., exactly, so why do you put so much effort into explaining such things at this talk page? he Sami were hunters longer than the Finns, therefore the Sami maintained shamanistic features longer than the Finns. This is all grade school stuff and doesn't need to be explained over and over again. And thanks for updating the article by including the Ugrians. Now if someone could also start up a chapter about them we can put this behind us and move on. The only thing "Finno-Ugric mythologies" as a title still sounds weird in English, it should be called Finno-Ugric mythology.--Termer (talk) 18:11, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: An entity called Finno-Ugric mythology does not exist, so I cannot understand how the plural form is weird. There are several Finno-Ugrian peoples and several Finno-Ugrian mythologies, only distantly related with each other.--130.234.68.222 (talk) 12:02, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The question has been addressed several times, please read the talk page! Finno-Ugric mythology like "Finnic mythology" are common forms used in English. It doesn't mean it contains a single mythology. OK! The form "Finno-Ugric mythologies" is used in English if you'd talk about a something of Finno-Ugric mythologies.--Termer (talk) 16:13, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The relation between Baltic-Finnic and Sami mythologies

message: Shamanism is a key element in Sami mythology, but there are only a few traces of shamanism amongst the Baltic Finns. The Finnish "tietäjä", a wise person and often a healer, is often translated to English as "shaman" (in the lack of a better term), but in Finnish study these terms are separate. Many who compare Finnish culture to "true" shamanistic cultures have pointed out the fact that there are no documents about Finnish or Karelian shaman drums. Shaman drum is a key element in shamanism, a tool to reach trance, a state of consciousness in which shamanistic rituals are performed.
Martti Haavio, one of the most prominent figures in the study of Finnish mythology, has found only one possible historic document about the actual practice of Baltic Finnic shamanism (Suomalainen mytologia 1967). This is a report made around 1650s by a priest about pagan paractices in Kemi-Lapland. The priest writes to his colleagues that witches who live in cottages sometimes sing and fall on ground to "see". Haavio interprets these withces as Karelians and their activity as shamanistic trance; seeing the spirit world. There is also one mentioning from year 1938 that one fine type of drums from Lapland has no Sami name, but a Finnish name only. Haavio interprets this as a possible evidence that there might have been Finnish shaman drums. However the year 1938 was a bit too late to find ancient features of Finnish folk culture, that had already been modernizer. But it was a good time for politically motivated claims.
Anna-Leena Siikala, the most prominent "proponent" of Finnish shamanism, also admits that Finnish mythology and culture are not historically known to have been truly shamanistic, but she thinks the culture of the ancestors of Finns has been closer to real shamanism at some (unspecified?) era. Her great book "Suomalainen shamanismi" ("Finnish shamanism", 1996) has a suggestive name, but its not trying to "proof" that Finnish mythology was shamanistic. The book searches traces of shamanism in Finnish mythology.
I don't know much about the state of affairs of possible shamanism amongst the Estonians. Maybe somebody else could tell more about that? 
New revolutionary information is always welcome, but unless such emerges, I suggest that we make a clear separation between Sami and Baltic-Finnic mythologies, at least in this very important part. Maybe we should not confuse the reader by talking about anything "Finno-Lappic" in the field of mythology, unless we clearly specify the "Finno-Lappic" feature that we are currently talking about. 193.65.112.51 (talk) 20:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The question has been addressed several times on this talk page. But since you brought it up again, "Finnish Shamanism" could definitely use some more attention in the article since there are plenty of sources available in English that look into the subject. Now, regarding the new title, since it has changed back to Finno-Ugrig Mythologies once again, the editors responsible for changing the title would need to add the Og-Ugric and Ugric mythologies to the article, otherwise the title change is not justified and needs to be rolled back according to the content.--Termer (talk) 20:42, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please keep the discussion on the subject of this thread. 193.65.112.51 (talk) 20:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, I'm willing to update the Finnish section with Finnish Shamanism in utmost detail as soon as I can. Since finland.com claims that The ancient Finnish magicians and shamans were famous for their skills it seems like an important subject. But first things first since Finnish Shamanism has secondary importance at the moment. those who have been advocating the inclusion of Ob-Ugric mythology in here would need to help out with updating the article according to their subject of interest so that the content would mach the title.--Termer (talk) 21:21, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem once again to ignore the most concrete, ground level proof and evidence for the sake of an existence of claims and arguments. There are claims and agruments for almost anything, and its important to evaluate and compare the trustfullness and relevancy of different claims. There are surely many who wants to claim that there was a strong historic culture of Finnish shamanism. For example the page you mention now is trying to advertise Finland for tourism. Of course such page wants to create an image of Finland as exotic as possible. Many others are politically or religiously motivated; motivations including Greater Finland, Finske Fare, Germanic supremacy and Finnish Neo-Paganism. The fact only is that there is an existence of some sort of traces of shamanism in Finnish mythology, and a very few uncertain historic documents. There has been shamanism amongst the ancestors of Finns, as there has been shamanism amongst the ancestors of every people. We were all hunter-gatherers at some point of the past. For example one form or trace of Norse shamanism was Seid , which name is related to Sami sieidi tradition. But should we talk about Norse-Lappic mythology because of that and many other relations between Sami and Norse myths? I dont think so. Some sort of traces of shamanism are almost universal in traditional cultures. These traces does not justify to call the most of the cultures of world as shamanistic cultures. Tuohirulla puhu 09:36, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

text: there has been shamanism amongst the ancestors of every people. We were all hunter-gatherers at some point of the past., exactly, so why do you put so much effort into explaining such things at this talk page? he Sami were hunters longer than the Finns, therefore the Sami maintained shamanistic features longer than the Finns. This is all grade school stuff and doesn't need to be explained over and over again. And thanks for updating the article by including the Ugrians. Now if someone could also start up a chapter about them we can put this behind us and move on. The only thing "Finno-Ugric mythologies" as a title still sounds weird in English, it should be called Finno-Ugric mythology.--Termer (talk) 18:11, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: An entity called Finno-Ugric mythology does not exist, so I cannot understand how the plural form is weird. There are several Finno-Ugrian peoples and several Finno-Ugrian mythologies, only distantly related with each other.--130.234.68.222 (talk) 12:02, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The question has been addressed several times, please read the talk page! Finno-Ugric mythology like "Finnic mythology" are common forms used in English. It doesn't mean it contains a single mythology. OK! The form "Finno-Ugric mythologies" is used in English if you'd talk about a something of Finno-Ugric mythologies.--Termer (talk) 16:13, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Shamanism

message: And thanks for updating the article by including the Ugrians. Now if someone could also start up a chapter about them we can put this behind us and move on.
:I would like to see more opinions on this, but I think the present chapters about the different mythologies (Finnish, Estonian, Sami, etc.) seem unnecessarily large. These chapters should be introductory-like, a lot more compact than now. Mainly they should tell some overall features, and direct the reader to more detailed articles. There are so many Fenno-Ugric mythologies that if we make this long presentation about each one, the article would be a way too big.
:There is also a problem of double information, if the same stuff is  here and in another article. Tuohirulla puhu 12:10, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Chapters about individual mythologies

message: There have been a list of the different gods and godesses in the Sami religion here on wiki. I can't find it now. Have it been deleted? So sad, if this is true.--85.226.44.74 (talk) 14:02, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It was remowed, with several other, here: []. Why? It was information.It is nowere on wiki now. --85.226.44.74 (talk) 14:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

text: The only valid reason why those facts may have been removed from the article is because there seems to be no sources provided whatsoever. Therefore anybody may remove it any time. The list of gods should have secondary published sources provided and then it can be restored in the article. Simply because it's a list of gods, that's not a reason good enough to remove anything from an article.--Termer (talk) 21:04, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

text: The editor who remowed the lists said nothing of sources. The reason given for the remowal was this: great edits, lists removed, since this is not a list but an article. --85.226.44.74 (talk) 09:46, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll just restore the sections for now. later perhaps all the gods could be better added to relevant articles, the Sami gods to Sami shamanism etc. since this has turned into a general article about Finno-Ugric mythologies, listing all gods of all the people here would be perhaps turn out getting too much into details in such a general article. and therefore it might be more relevant to list it in the main articles later on. But lets see...for now the article is far from being too long, and there is no point of creating a separate list of lets say Sami gods.--Termer (talk) 06:58, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Taking a second look, since the Estonian and Finnish gods are already listed in relevant main articles, and duplicating some of them over here doesn't really make sense, it would work better if the Sami gods would also be listed in the main article Sami shamanism I think, so I'll do that instead.--Termer (talk) 07:05, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Well done, thank you very much! One could also add, of course, that the names of the deities are spelled in different ways, although they are always similar and the gods themselwes are always the same.--85.226.44.74 (talk) 19:29, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of sami gods 

message: A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :Finnic paganism. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 June 30#Finnic paganism until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 12:55, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Finnic paganism" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]