Talk:Earl of Desmond

message: This was briefly discussed on Talk:Gerald FitzGerald, 15th Earl of Desmond but remains unresolved. I've assembled the publications that I've been able to find on the subject, maybe a consensus can be reached when all are assessed.
The main issue with numbering appears to be with regards to the 13th Earl - the dispute surrounding John FitzThomas (an old man, brother of 11th Earl, who disputed his nephew the 12th Earl's claim), who forcibly seized the Earldom and subsequently passed the title on to his son James FitzJohn, the 13th *OR* 14th Earl.
See headings added below. KerryMuso (talk) 16:35, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I vote Proposal 2. It assigns a number to John FitzThomas, but allows legal numbering to be maintained afterwards, and specifically numbers him the same as at least one published source (Tompsett).KerryMuso (talk) 16:36, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for presenting that in a tidy fashion. I'll use the death years to distinguish the individuals. 1536 was contemporary with 1539/40, and didn't overlap with 1558. I'd say keep 1536 as #12 de facto. If you take de jure/facto as mutual terms, ie. one depends on the other, the #12 de jure must absorb the #12 de facto on the death of 1536, so 1558 succeeds to a unified entity and becomes #13. Seems like the logical way, but I recognise this is the Irish peerage and is subject to some weird calculus beyond arithmetic. Therefore vote proposal 1.Shtove (talk) 18:43, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

text: I also wanted to chime in here about Nicholas, son of the 1st Earl. Unlike Wikipedia, I am going to be re-numbering  my online tree to include him as he is included in the two main sources (Cokayne, Vol. 3, 1890 and Burke, A Genealogical History, 1866) used for the 1st Earl as the 3rd Earl. I'm not sure why this has been decided to be overlooked, even if he is called "an idiot." -- Lady Meg (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Numbering of Earls 

message: Proposal 1:
* Refer to James FitzMaurice (d. 1539/40) as 12th Earl de jure in text/navboxes
* Label John FitzThomas (d. 1536) as 12th and refer to as de facto in text/navboxes
* Label subsequent Earls as James (13th), Gerald (14th) etc
Proposal 2:
* Refer to James FitzMaurice (d. 1539/40) as 12th Earl de jure in text/navboxes
* Label John FitzThomas (d. 1536) as 13th and refer to as de facto in text/navboxes
* Label subsequent Earls as James (13th), Gerald (14th) etc
Proposal 3:
* Keep current sequential numbering system (i.e. John is numbered 13th, James 14th, Gerald 15th)
:I vote Proposal 2. It assigns a number to John FitzThomas, but allows legal numbering to be maintained afterwards, and specifically numbers him the same as at least one published source (Tompsett).KerryMuso (talk) 16:36, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for presenting that in a tidy fashion. I'll use the death years to distinguish the individuals. 1536 was contemporary with 1539/40, and didn't overlap with 1558. I'd say keep 1536 as #12 de facto. If you take de jure/facto as mutual terms, ie. one depends on the other, the #12 de jure must absorb the #12 de facto on the death of 1536, so 1558 succeeds to a unified entity and becomes #13. Seems like the logical way, but I recognise this is the Irish peerage and is subject to some weird calculus beyond arithmetic. Therefore vote proposal 1.Shtove (talk) 18:43, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposals

message: Hello, all.  Just finished getting an article started for each of the earls of Desmond.  As thoughtfully discussed above, the numbering scheme situation is a difficult one.  While creating the articles about the de jure and de facto 12th earls, I just couldn't bring myself to declare either of them the 13th and imply some sort of regular succession.  So I've numbered the earls in their time period the 11th, de facto 12th, de jure 12th, and 14th.  Far from a perfect solution, but the best I could manage.  I rather regret the decision not to count poor Nicholas as the 3rd earl, as it causes our scheme to diverge from that in so many of the available secondary sources, as for instance the very helpful Alfred Webb.  Still, the decision was made by other editors long before I chipped in on this project, so it behooves me to let it stand.Rinne na dTrosc (talk) 21:52, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I also wanted to chime in here about Nicholas, son of the 1st Earl. Unlike Wikipedia, I am going to be re-numbering  my online tree to include him as he is included in the two main sources (Cokayne, Vol. 3, 1890 and Burke, A Genealogical History, 1866) used for the 1st Earl as the 3rd Earl. I'm not sure why this has been decided to be overlooked, even if he is called "an idiot." -- Lady Meg (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Numbering of Earls, completion of articles

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