Talk:Left Behind: Eternal Forces

message: To avoid further conflict and to reach consensus, let's discuss improvements to the article on a section-by-section basis. Present each section, then propose and discuss changes. Thank you. Seregain (talk) 03:40, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Step-by-step improvement of article 

message: Proposed version:
The game features a single-player campaign and an online multiplayer mode. In the campaign, the player controls a Christian paramilitary organization (the Tribulation Force) who are waging a conflict against the Global Community Peacekeepers led by the Antichrist Nicolae Carpathia (loosely modeled on the United Nations Peacekeepers). The player directs the actions of the main characters (Rayford Steele, Cameron "Buck" Williams, Chloe Steele, and Bruce Barnes) and the Tribulation Force's units in an effort to defeat the GCP by converting civilians who are on the side of the GCP to their side, or by using lethal force when necessary including machine guns and tanks.
In the multiplayer component of the game, two players compete online against each other - one playing as the Tribulation Force and the other playing as the Global Community Peacekeepers.
This is very good for the most part. Only two major points I take issue with:
There's a problem referring to the Tribulation Force as a "paramilitary organization." There's simply no way the group in the books or the game can be described as being "paramilitary" in any sense of the word (and there are many), particularly in conjunction with a phrase like "waging a conflict against." That is a term far better suited to the books' and game's Global Community Peacekeepers.
The goal of the Tribulation Force is both the books and the game is not to defeat the GCP or Carpathia. Their goal is described as wanting to bring people to Christianity before Christ's return. Resisting and stymieing the Antichrist and his Global Community is one of the ways in which they accomplish that goal.
So, fixing those two things and clarifying a few other minor points, can we agree upon the following version?
The game features a single-player campaign and an online multiplayer mode. In the campaign, the player controls the Christian Tribulation Force who oppose the Global Community Peacekeepers (loosely modeled on the United Nations Peacekeepers) led by the Antichrist Nicolae Carpathia. The player directs the actions of the main characters (Rayford Steele, Cameron "Buck" Williams, Chloe Steele, and Bruce Barnes) and other Tribulation Force characters in an effort to converting both neutral and Global Community characters to their side, or by using lethal force when necessary including machine guns and tanks. 
In the multiplayer component of the game, two players compete online against each other - one playing as the Tribulation Force and the other playing as the Global Community Peacekeepers.
If this looks good to you, go ahead and change the article section. Seregain (talk) 17:45, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine. I'll remove the "paramilitary" reference. As for the previous gameplay section, this is much too in-depth for a Wikipedia article (Wikipedia articles are supposed to be a brief summary). If there is a Left Behind wiki at Wikia, you could post it there instead or start a Left Behind wiki at the site.--SuaveArt (talk) 02:59, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur. It was a pretty clunky section with few, if any, references beyond the game's own website. Seregain (talk) 15:27, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gameplay section 

message: I don't know what your complaints are, but I'll try to address them all. But do not revert back to the original version. You are reverting multiple edits, many of which are routine and much-needed cleanup. If you aren't content, then we will have to ask for the community to intervene and establish a consensus.
1. You say calling the TF a "militia" or "paramilitary" group is biased.
- Well I say simply calling it a "Christian organization" is biased in the other direction (just as most of the article was before I edited it). Up until now, the article had censored all references to the in-game military conflict except for one review which supposedly claimed that "the game only allows the player to use military force when it is attacked", which was also false (after reading that review, I found that it actually said only that the game penalizes the player for using military force against neutral units).
Like it or not, this is a military-oriented strategy game, and most of the reviews refer to the TF as an "army" or a "militia" group. Whether or not the game "promotes religious warfare" is a different story. If you have a better term than "militia" let me know, but a militia is referred to as.
"A group of civilians who are trained and prepared to serve in combat during times of self-defense". - That is what the TB is.
I've expanded the gameplay section further, adding an emphasis that the game discourages the use of force by penalizing the player and encourages conversion over violence. If you are only going to be satisfied if all references to the violence are subtly censored from the article, then that will not work and I will have to tag this article for peer review.
2. You say that I removed several positive reviews of the article, and that I moved the section about the software patch to a place where it's irrelevent.
- First, I have checked the edit history, and I have restored every major positive (and negative) review that was in the article before I first edited it. The only review I haven't restored is a minor Christian blog (personal blogs cannot be used as references on Wikipedia, only primary sources like Gamespot).
Second, the "patch section" is in a relevant section (and I even restored a Gameshark review of the "patched" version of the game, which was more positive). Putting the patch section in the middle of the reception section is not correct under Wikipedia guidelines, and is actually biased toward apologizing for the negative reviews (as you said, let the reader judge the article for themselves - before I cleaned it up, the review section was just a huge list of apologetic for the game's gameplay which don't belong in an encyclopedia).
::Actually I decided you were right, and I put the patch section right after the criticism of the game's technical issues (along with another review).
3. The claims about sexism, racism, etc are stated as facts and I disagree"
Every claim about "racism, sexism, etc" is not "stated as a fact", they are quotes taken directly out of the reviews, and are just the opinions of the reviewers. I have added as many positive reviews as possible to balance it out, and I've changed the wording to make it sound as neutral as possible. But Wikipedia articles quote from sources. Even if those sources offend you.
If you have any other complaints, please list them here instead of reverting multiple edits which were routine cleanup unrelated to this POV conflict, or if you want I can ask for the community to step in and make a decision. Thanks.--SuaveArt (talk) 04:10, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither do you. You're the only one acting like you "own" it. Please read up on Wikipedia official policy (such as WP:NOT). When you revert to the orignial version, you're not just reverting the content you objected to (you're also reverting a lot of routine maintenance such as typo corrections and formatting). And before I edited the article, it was full of clear WP policy violations (currently you may have issues with the article, but it doesn't violate any of Wikipedia's article criteria).
So once again, tell me what you object to in the current version of the article that I haven't already corrected. Since it's just you and me here, I'll have to ask for the community to make a decision if you still aren't content.--SuaveArt (talk) 23:05, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  PLEASE READ before making any further reverts 

message: Instead of saying that this is a christian game could the article not say evangelical? or even fundamentalist, it is not a christian game except to a small minority of radical unorthodox christians. To most christians the beliefs and themes put forward by this game are insulting and unchristian.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.152.13.50 (talk) 00:48, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The opening paragraph states that the game is based on a series of evangelical Christian novels.--SuaveArt (talk) 02:17, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian?  

message: The section uses two questionable sources to support the information presented. The first is the Anti-Defamation League and the second is the Talk To Action group blog. The ADL is a civil rights organization that has little to do with computer games and the Talk To Action blog is, well, a blog, but is primarily concerned with religious and social issues. Both sources have a particular bias/slant and neither seems suited to providing reliable information regarding the gameplay of this or any other game. Their inclusion in later sections about issues surrounding this game is fine, but I don't think they belong in the "Gameplay" section. Seregain (talk) 06:20, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable "Gameplay" sourcing 

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