Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 23

message: Working through my opera programmes, I discovered I had the text and programme notes for this Turnage piece that ENO performed with From the House of the Dead about ten years back, describing it as a Monodrama. However I don't detect a clear narrative thread, rather it seems to be the reminiscences of an imprisoned woman who killed her violent husband. SO... what does the hosue think? --Peter cohen 23:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting question. I don't know the work, however Grove has an article on 'monodrama' tracing it back to Rousseau's Pygmalion. If the Turnage was intended for the stage, rather than the concert platform, then I think it does qualify for inclusion here. -- Kleinzach 00:20, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is ''Twice through the Heart'' an opera? 

message: I've just noticed a minor addition by the above user to the Wieland Wagner page and, having looked at his contributions which seem to be mainly about opera singers, I decided to encourage him this way.  With luck he might even know somethign about those singers we want articles on.--Peter cohen 07:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, new users will not be aware of the Opera Project so it's a good idea to let them know they can get help etc. here.-- Kleinzach 00:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Invitation to [[User:Brian Joseph Morgan]] to join WPO 

message: Could someone look at Rossini’s Tancredi. Someone added "For the fictional characters of the series Prison Break, see Sara Tancredi and Frank Tancredi". May I know what is the connection between those last name and the opera? It doesnt look "right" to me. - Jay 14:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know nothing about Prison Break, but it's not impossible that people interested in it might do a WP search for just "Tancredi" and end up at the opera (with which there is indeed no connection).  There are similar examples already existing elsewhere, for example at Gloriana and Otello.  The alternative, when there are more than a few similar names, is a dab page, as with Giulio Cesare or Rienzi. --GuillaumeTell 17:21, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Aye, och, nothing evil here, perfectly plausible. Here's one that's good fun: Pot-pourri. Plants and music, eh? I remember creating the musical article with Meladina when we discovered that linking in a musical context went to the plant article. Moreschi  Talk 19:50, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rossini’s [[Tancredi]]

message: Is here, for those who may not be watching the page. Fireplace 20:50, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox discussion at WikiProject Composers 

message: We've been diverted. Is there agreement on using Moreschi's version on the project page? Here it is again:
Edit warring is evil and strongly deplored, so don't. Be bold, and encourage others to be so, but if you encounter opposition discuss matters calmly, either with the user in question on the article's talk page, or here if preferred. Do not continue reverting in a revert-war.
But is it adequate as a reference to use when an edit war starts, bearing in mind that aggressive behavoiur almost always precedes the socializing experience here? Here is an alternative: 
The Opera Project believes in collaboration and compromise. Edit warring is evil and strongly deplored, so don't do it. Take the initiative and be bold, but if you encounter opposition discuss matters calmly, either with the user in question on the article's talk page, or here if a wider audience is desirable. Do not indulge in a revert-war.
(Hoping we can cut the WTF? OMG! TMD TLA. ARG! to a minimum. The text above also doesn't deal with bots and AWB editing so I am going to make a separate suggestion to cover these later.) -- Kleinzach 03:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now added a version of this to the Project Page. -- Kleinzach 01:27, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Conclusion?

message: I'll be away for a chunk of August so I've been doing some work on the composers agreed for then in advance. Note for those writing Salieri articles: our German friends appear to have excellent coverage of Salieri's operas, as can be seen here, where there are plenty of bluelinks. There's no reason why we can't translate their material for use over here, and when writing articles here we should remember to do the interwiki links (format: de:Article title over there/Name of opera. Cheers, Moreschi  Talk 12:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  German Wikipedia and Salieri 

message: I wrote about Catherine Malfitano, the existing article was too short with only 2 lines. BTW, do we have any standard format for operatic performers to follow? It would be great if any of you could put up a photo to her article. - Jay 15:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We haven't done much work on singers yet, especially contemporary ones. I can't think of a good model offhand, though you could look at some of the excellent biographies being done by our new member, Brian Morgan, such as Karan Armstrong. There are also good sections in different articles, e.g. Maria_Callas#Notable_recordings which might also serve as a model for a dated list of roles. (Also please no infobox!). For picture please contact Malfitano's agent. -- Kleinzach 00:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No info box ? But Maria Callas has it, and others too like Pavarotti, Carreras, Domingo ..  many more. - Jay 01:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Only very prominent singers (unfortunately) have them, invariably with non-free dealing pictures which shouldn't be there, One of the non-aesthetic reasons for avoiding them is that we are going to have a series of flag-decorated nationality wars if they are applied to earlier singers. -- Kleinzach 02:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Only very prominent singers - Poor Malfitano. Ok I will remove it. - Jay 04:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, no, what I meant was that it was unfortunate that any serious artist had them. Those boxes are just for popular singers. No disrespect intended to Malfitano! -- Kleinzach 04:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Catherine Malfitano

message: I notice that :Category:Operettas by Johann Strauss II appears in the list of operas by composers, but a similar list for Lehar does not. Given the name, I would prefer to position it under :Category:Operettas. What do others think?
:IMO these should all be in Operas by composer. We don't have 'Opéras comiques by Adolf Blanc', 'Singspiele by Ludwig Schütz' (it would make everything too complicated and fragmentary) so we shouldn't have them for operetta either. -- Kleinzach 01:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm inclined to agree with you here. I was tempted to go in and rename the category even before I posted the main post here. --Peter cohen 08:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: No.  For example, :Category:Operas by Ludwig van Beethoven is required for this sort of Bot operation - see discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Classical_music#SatyrBot. --GuillaumeTell 23:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: operettas

message: I have explicitly included categories with opera or operatic in their names, e.g. :category:Welsh operatic baritones. I have excluded more general categories such as :category:sopranos, as they might not all sing opera. I have decided, however, to include :category:divas, as they are more or less by definition operatic.
:The vast majority of opera singers are categorized simply as sopranos, tenors, baritones etc rather than 'operatic' sopranos etc. because these are opera subcategories, as listed on our project page. For example the soprano category contains 382 sopranos, while the whole opera singers cat only has 104 items. (Also note the cat. you give :category:Welsh operatic baritones which only has two names.) IMO we have to include the Soprano etc. categories even if we catch the odd popular singer in the process. (Of course if someone could cull the 'interlopers' that would be great.) -- Kleinzach 01:04, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Having become aware of the official approach for musical performer catgories where the combination nationality-genre-instrument (e.g. :category:Ruritanian operatic nose-flute players) is the official way of breaking things down by performer, then I think we do need to sort things out. (Not that I'm volunteering myself for this task certainly in the short term.) We either need to fill out at the level of :category:Welsh opera singers etc. or decide that the level of :category:Welsh operatic baritones is our preferred bottom category. I know someone (possibly you) suggested higher up that not everything has to be decided on for the first run of the bot and that we might leave people out. My pressent line is that we include the people who are definitely ours  in the first run (i.e. in opera/operatic categories and leave the others to be sorted until things are cleaner. But lets gather a few more views first. Oh and we do need to decide whether opera or operatic is our preferred adjective and be consistent.--Peter cohen 08:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes this is a huge job. I believe there are approaching 1,000 articles on opera singers. (Problems include the large number of American categories unmatched by other nationalities, the borderline categories like diva, soubrette etc. and the pop singers included.) -- Kleinzach 09:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I've now discovered someoen in divas who isn't an opera singer, so I'll remove it. Soubrettes and heldentenors surely are operatic, but I shan't include them for now. --Peter cohen 10:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Heldentenors yes, soubrettes not necessarily! -- Kleinzach 10:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right. Emma Bunton aka Baby Spice is apparently a Soubrette. Heldentenors are all ours. --Peter cohen 17:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I usually recommend that categories for the bot to work on have at least an 80% hit rate.  My suspicion is that "sopranos" will yield less than that.  You might want to add a section to the category list of "categories that are part of the project but not for the bot". -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 13:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Intersting idea. Goes off to produce such a list. --Peter cohen 17:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have worked on the sopranos cat in the past and I believe it's over 90% opera. The other ones: mezzos, altos, tenors, baritones, bases etc are close to 100%. (There are very few oratorio-only, lieder-only singers.) This is important because about one third of our total 3,000-odd articles are in these categories.-- Kleinzach 22:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Category:Altos, :Category:Contraltos, :Category:Countertenors, :Category:Bass-baritones, :Category:Basses and :Category:Mezzo-sopranos are 100% opera now (plus the obvious cross-overs) - after removing the odd interloper. -- Kleinzach 06:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: singers

message: Can we please review it before we set things going. In particular, are we going to include ratings? And as we have a bot tagging articles have just created with their own sweat and tears, is it politer to change the opening to "This article falls within the scope of WikiProject:Opera" which strikes me as less aggressive.
:The opera tag can be amended at any time. I personally think it needs a new graphic and smaller, less obtrusive text. 
:Ratings/assessments is a major subject and a separate debate would be needed. Many of us are reluctant to get involved in this, but I've come round to thinking it may be a necessary evil. I'll start a topic below about this. -- Kleinzach 02:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The opera tag