Talk:Baphomet

message: :Baphomet also known in the ancient world as a pagan fertility god demonized and turned into satan by the church, allthough freemasonary readily admits baphomet is indeed a fertility god. Baphomet also takes on a human form in some depictions rather than half human and half beast. In more popular beliefs i.e. satanism baphomet is worshipped as satan.
Please find me a reference, preferably an original source, for the notions that the name Baphomet existed in the ancient world, or that Freemasons actually, as opposed to false claims such as the Taxil hoax, worshipped Baphomet as a fertility god. Smerdis of Tlön 14:01, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fertility cult? 

message: I'm delisting this article from GA status because it fails to cite its references. In addition, the article's lead is a bit too short. AndyZ 15:31, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Delisted GA

message: Just a query regarding this section: it mentions that Harpocrates was not associated with debauch or lust, which seems to imply that Levi's Baphomet was. Where does this idea come from? Fuzzypeg 10:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism of "Levi's interpretation" 

message: The following text has been removed here:
:"...the he-goat worshipped in the city of Mendes in Ancient Egypt. It is unclear whether the Ancient Egyptian women had intercourse with the goat during religious rites for fertility, but the Catholic Church claimed this and it is possible that this is where the notion that the Devil had intercourse with his witches came from. The goat (sometimes a ram was used) was the master of fertility and was celebrated as “copulator in Anep and inseminator in the district of Mendes,” where women were blessed with children. During rituals, women danced naked before the image. The Order of Nine Angles claims another perspective to Baphomet."
The animal venerated in Mendes was a ram not a goat. The "Catholic Church" made no such claim in connection with the ram deity Banebdjed, which is the actual historic deity of Mendes. “Copulator in Anep and inseminator in the district of Mendes,” is Levi's steamy phrase, I believe; it has no historical basis. "Women dancing naked before the image" yada yada yada —the same Second Empire culture that gave us Saint-Saens' Samson and Dalila and Flaubert's Salammbô— good entertainment but not good ethnographic history eh. This stuff does Wikipedia no good: copied from here, it's all over the Web. --Wetman 20:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed text 

message: I moved this unsourced "quotation" here: "The name of Baphomet is regarded by traditional Satanists as meaning "the mistress (or mother) of blood" - the (Satanic) Mistress who sometimes washes in the blood of her foes and whose hands are thereby stained. Allegedly, 7,000 years ago a civilization known as Albion had various rites associated with a Dark Goddess who was known as "Baphomet"." Allegedly indeed. --Wetman 01:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Albion" etc 

message: hey do you think there could be a possibilty of bahamut (a dragon sometimes goat headed dependind on the depiction)because Bahamut is considered a occult being. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.188.165.2 (talk) 09:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Baphomet=Bahamut

message: I've made a Notes section, and injected some references. Can we get better text on the Templars, to replace what I've commented out? So, Eliphal Lévi seems to have provided an "etymology" for Littré's Dictionnaire de la langue française! Cheeky, eh! The aricle needs some instances of "Baphomet" in contemporaneous material connected to the Templar trials: is there anything in one of the more serious historical studies of the Templar trials? Or is "Baphomet" simply a 19th-century Gothic Revival phantom? --Wetman 15:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Medieval texts

message: I'd like to remove the phrase "uncertain provenance" from the lead of this article.  The origin of the name of Baphomet has been reliably linked to the Templar inquisitions, and the image has been reliably sourced to Levi in the 19th century.  I know this may be a controversial change though, so I wanted to check here at talk first. The article used to say "uncertain provenance" before the link to the Inquisition transcripts was confirmed.  I was the one that did the research into Templar works (I've pushed the Knights Templar article to FA status) and added that reference, but I didn't remove the "uncertain" phrase.  I'd like to fix that now. Do other editors agree with the change? --Elonka 21:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If contemporaneous documents do employ "Baphomet", then "uncertain provenance" is unwarranted. A quote from a transcript (they must be published even in populariztions) would clinch it; the current unreassuring reference is merely to generic "transcriptions".--Wetman 22:47, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's been referred to in multiple modern documentaries, plus by academic Malcolm Barber, who is the current undisputed authority when it comes to the Knights Templar.  If you want, I can dig up an exact quote from his book The New Knighthood. --Elonka 23:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  (followup) Here's a quote from Peter Partner's book "The Knights Templar and their Myth", page 34: "In the trial of the Templars one of their main charges was their supposed worship of a heathen idol-head known as a 'Baphomet' ('Baphomet' = Mahomet = Muhammad)."  He also quotes from "a poem written in a Provencal dialect by a troubadour who is thought to have been a Templar", referring to some battles in 1265 that were not going well for the Crusaders: "And daily they impose new defeats on us: for God, who used to watch on our behalf, is now asleep, and Muhammad [Bafometz] puts forth his power to support the Sultan." There are other quotes from the book as well, where the author explains that "Baphomet" was etymologically equivalent to the Old French version of the word Muhammad. --Elonka 21:30, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

text: That's the kind of stuff the article needs, IMO: do edit it in, with your references.--Wetman 02:16, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The reference mentioned here says the poem was about battles in 1265, but the article currently says 'Twelfth Century' (ie 1100s). Presumably it should be Thirteenth century? --AntonChanning (talk) 18:50, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Provenance

message: Alas, following this avenue, as richly allusive and meaningless as a POEM BATH, I find the paranoid hidden alarm of occultists in the face of public oppression — "PA! THE MOB!" — as well as the ideal place for such Baphomet speckle-ations, a HEMP BOAT. Please, can we erect a cairn to this nonsense, a TOMB HEAP? --Wetman 06:26, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Upon the deleted anagrams of Baphomet

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replies: text: The image description page says "Book cover, pre- 1897". What part of that is not understood?--Wetman (talk) 03:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:LeoTaxilmysteres.jpg

message: I removed the following text that was tacked onto a statement about similarities between Levi's Baphomet image and grotesques on Templar churches:
:, or, more specifically, to Viollet-le-Duc's vivid gargoyles that were added to Notre Dame de Paris about the same time as Lévi's illustration.
Actually, Viollet-le-Duc's buildings are not "specific" instances of Templar churches, so that was misleading; also, I see no reason for mentioning these grotesques (they're not technically gargoyles) when they have only the vaguest similarity to Levi's drawing (they have horns, big deal), and the grotesques on Templar churches are much closer, and are the clear inspiration (along with the "Devil" tarot card) of Levi's image.
Check out these examples, for instance, and compare them with this chimera of Viollet-le-Duc: 
I've found a few more of Viollet-le-Duc's "gargoyles" by doing a google image search, and none of them look much like Levi's drawing. The statement I removed was trying to suggest connections that are spurious. Fuzzypeg★ 01:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Viollet-le-Duc's "gargoyles" are irrelevant 

message: I think it's very plausible that the Baphomet was the Shroud of Turin. The Shroud turned up in the ownership of a descendant of the Templars. The Templars were accused of worshipping a head. The Templars had taken an relic from the sack of Constantinople in 1204 that was called the Image of Edessa. It was supposed to be an image of the head of Jesus. There are quotations from Templars that the Image of Edessa is not just of a head but of a whole body. The Image of Edessa was a cloth of a whole body image folded to just show the head because it was considered indecent to show the whole body. By the way, that was the same reason given by the King of France why the Shroud of Turin should not be exhibited. The Baphomet was probably the Image of Edessa which was in turn the Shroud of Turin. Barney Hill (talk) 23:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: All of this is possible, but Wikipedia articles can only include notable theories that appear in published works. Theories must be attributed to a notable author or a reliable source. Otherwise such material is regarded as original research and removed. Fuzzypeg★ 07:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ian Wilson claimed that the 'head' of the Templars was the Shroud of Turin, but he never once called the 'head' Baphomet. Ian Wilson, The Turin Shroud (Victor Gollancz Ltd; 1978 ). Wfgh66 (talk) 21:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baphomet and the Shroud of Turin 

message: He did not realise that Gnostics did not have idols. 
I have removed this sentence as it is both uncited and is historically incorrect.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by SerpentOfDarkness (talk • contribs) 12:29, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Gnostics" covers a wide range of groups and many had idols, larper. Most notably many ophite cults 194.207.112.171 (talk) 20:50, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: why are you replying to a 15 year old section? Sneezless (talk)  (contribs) 16:29, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gnostic Heads and Severed Idols 

message: A large quantity of the pop culture section was just repeating the disambiguation page. We need to avoid building a trivia section on this page, or creating endless lists of popular representations of the figure. The only time such information would be warranted in an article like this is if that pop reference has significantly changed the common understanding of who or what Baphomet is. And I can't think of any representations that do this.
So, lets rely on the disambiguation page, and if there's some pop culture mention that doesn't warrant its own devoted article, then we can probably safely assume it's under the notability threshold for Wikipedia. I'm not even convinced of the notability of the various song titles that are listed in Baphomet (disambiguation), but it's better having them there than here... Fuzzypeg★ 21:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed pop culture section 

message: I know it would be out of place but Stephen Colbert totally mentioned Baphomet on his Christmas special DVD. He mentions it sometime during his video advent calender.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.12.31 (talk) 00:54, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Lots of people mention all sorts of things all the time. That doesn't mean they are worth listing in an encyelpodia article about that topic. DreamGuy (talk) 21:35, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Colbert 

message: I removed the following sentence until someone can cite a source:
:Lévi's Baphomet is clearly the source as well of the later Tarot image of the Devil, in the Rider-Waite design.
I don't think the similarity between the Baphomet picture and the Rider-Waite Devil trump picture is as self-evident as this statement assumes, and even if it is true, needs substantiation. Lusanaherandraton (talk) 02:48, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Self-evident by comparing illustrations. Visual literacy .--Wetman (talk) 20:17, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

text: It is self-evident, which mean a reliable source undoubtedly mentioned it sometime too, which would be nice if not vital to have. DreamGuy (talk) 21:33, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rider-Waite claim 

message: Some going about in circles in recent edits about how the lead should read... it could be clearer by whom/how/when/where/why Baphomet was thought to be an Islamic deity.  At the moment "Some modern scholars such as Peter Partner and Malcolm Barber agree that the name of Baphomet was an Old French corruption of the name Muhammad, with the interpretation being that some of the Templars, through their long military occupation of the Outremer, had begun incorporating Islamic ideas into their belief system, and that this was seen and documented by the Inquisitors as heresy.[10] Peter Partner's 1987 book The Knights Templar and their Myth says, 'In the trial of the Templars one of their main charges was their supposed worship of a heathen idol-head known as a 'Baphomet' ('Baphomet' = Mahomet).'" is the only part that aims at that, but it doesn't quite get there. Шизомби (talk) 15:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The salient point that needs making at the outset is that Baphomet is a Christian phantom: there is no "deity" Baphomet— as the article demonstrates.--Wetman (talk) 19:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, "imagined" goes towards that but could be clearer.  I'm asking more about who imagined it to be an Islamic deity, though; the article doesn't really say any Muslims ever worshipped Baphomet.  It sort of says scholars believe in retrospect that the Templars may have been a Christian/Islamic syncretistic sect that worshipped Muhammad as a deity under that name, or they were charged with supposedly being and believing that. Шизомби (talk) 20:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Did I improve it? I removed the notion that the etymology is unestablished, since it seems established enough: it is a corruption of "Muhammad". I connected the imagined-ness directly to the "deity" and then I clarified that this imagination is found in "Catholic folklore", using Catholic instead of Christian because the Templars were Christians persecuted by the Catholic hierarchy (I don't know if this helped). I am not sure if "folklore" is the best word. Srnec (talk) 00:55, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's still somewhat unclear.  I wonder also if the initial sentence ought also to cover the later Levi use. Шизомби (talk) 03:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yet, apparently the opening summary already carries as much freight as it can bear. "Eliphas Levi"'s further inventions do come along in chronological progression, making the career of this phantom progressively clear to the attentive reader.--Wetman (talk) 05:55, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "pagan or Islamic deity" in lead 

message: Where does the idea of Baphomet as a Pagan deity come from?--Jcvamp (talk) 23:37, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: From the popular idea in the Middle Ages that Islam was polytheistic and worshipped idols -- Muslims were claimed to worship Muhammad, Termagant, Apollo etc. So when 'Muhammad' became corrupted to 'Bafomet' it was natural to assign the name as a 'pagan' god. (On the other hand, Islam was also considered by some to be a Christian heresy -- thus Muhammad is among the heresiarchs and sowers of schism in the Divine Comedy.) 128.194.250.68 (talk) 00:30, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pagan deity 

message: The Order of Nine Angles, via their publications, semi-official websites and weblogs have written substantially about Baphomet. The ONA view her as a "Dark Goddess," and "Bride of Lucifer," among other epithets. I think it would be worth including in this article that there is an occult group out there that have a totally different conception of Baphomet, and one they claim to be founded upon a genuine esoteric tradition. Now, before the whole "the ONA does not exist" argument surfaces, I would like to point out that this ethereal organization has recently been subject to scholarly discussion. Cf. Jacob C. Senholt's thesis entitled: "The Sinister Tradition," as well as number of papers from the pen of a certain Richard Sterling. So, I think a brief mention of the ONA's conception of Baphomet is encyclopedia worthy. D. Y. Boulet 9:47 AM (AST), April 17th, 2010.  —Preceding undated comment added 12:48, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baphomet & The Order of Nine Angles 

message: The word "imagined in the lede's first sentence is essential, yet it keeps getting removed. I don't know whether this has been done by the same person or group, or whether the sentence misleads people, despite the clarification in parentheses:
:Baphomet () is an imagined pagan deity (i.e., a product of Christian folklore concerning pagans), revived in the 19th century as a figure of Satanism.
I'm just wondering whether these are actually different people who stumble over "imagined [...] deity", have their red-alert set off, and immediately remove what they see as a redundant "imagined", without actually finishing the sentence. I admit that, at the very least, the entire first sentence shouldn't be asking too much from a reader. Nevertheless, if anyone can come up with a more foolproof phrasing, it might be worth a shot. ---Sluzzelin talk 23:11, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well put. You're very patient, Sluzzelin.--Wetman (talk) 01:53, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I've put in a note in the faint hope that someone will care to read it. Trigaranus (talk) 07:42, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

text: Is that just my computer or have the insert tools below become extremely pointless without their hyperlinks? Is it really the idea that "copy+paste" works better than just being able to click it? I don't wanna sign my posts anymore...! (whine) Trigaranus (talk) 07:42, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Repeated removals of the word "imagined" 

message: More sources are needed to clarify the provenance of Hammer's images. The book provided for the reference to "grotesque carvings on the Templar churches", The Pillars of Tubal Cain, does not provide the necessary information.
The paragraph beginning with "In mystic symbolism" seems to have been written by someone who has not actually read Eliphas Levi's books (few people have; this article may need to discuss Levi's alchemical philosophy more). The "Geometrical theory" section is obviously written by the (self-published) author himself and probably falls well below any standards of notability. (So it goes.) Kramden (talk) 19:13, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent additions 

message: I suggest to create the Association with the Holy Spirit of the Christians which is something OTO.de has already done  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.180.61.188 (talk) 22:49, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion  

message: Is Baphomet a modern version of the sumerian demon Pazuzu? - (compare their arms position and wings) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.59.100.35 (talk) 10:11, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baphomet a modern "Pazuzu"? 

message: I believe this article contradicts itself here;
Dr. Hugh J. Schonfield (1901–1988),[34] one of the scholars who worked on the Dead Sea Scrolls, argued in his book The Essene Odyssey that the word "Baphomet" was created with knowledge of the Atbash substitution cipher, which substitutes the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet for the last, the second for the second last, and so on. "Baphomet" rendered in Hebrew is בפומת; interpreted using Atbash, it becomes שופיא, which can be interpreted as the Greek word "Sophia", or wisdom. This theory is an important part of the plot of The Da Vinci Code. Professor Schonfield's theory however cannot be independently corroborated.
The statement "Professor Schonfield's theory however cannot be independently corroborated." contradicts itself here;
In Magick (Book 4), Crowley asserted that Baphomet was a divine androgyne and "the hieroglyph of arcane perfection":
The Devil does not exist. It is a false name invented by the Black Brothers to imply a Unity in their ignorant muddle of dispersions. A devil who had unity would be a God... 'The Devil' is, historically, the God of any people that one personally dislikes... This serpent, SATAN, is not the enemy of Man, but He who made Gods of our race, knowing Good and Evil; He bade 'Know Thyself!' and taught Initiation. He is 'The Devil' of the Book of Thoth, and His emblem is BAPHOMET, the Androgyne who is the hieroglyph of arcane perfection... He is therefore Life, and Love. But moreover his letter is ayin, the Eye, so that he is Light; and his Zodiacal image is Capricornus, that leaping goat whose attribute is Liberty.[51]
For Crowley, Baphomet is further a representative of the spiritual nature of the spermatozoa while also being symbolic of the "magical child" produced as a result of sex magic. As such, Baphomet represents the Union of Opposites, especially as mystically personified in Chaos and Babalon combined and biologically manifested with the sperm and egg united in the zygote.[citation needed]
Crowley proposed that Baphomet was derived from "Father Mithras". In his Confessions he describes the circumstances that led to this etymology:[52]
I had taken the name Baphomet as my motto in the O.T.O. For six years and more I had tried to discover the proper way to spell this name. I knew that it must have eight letters, and also that the numerical and literal correspondences must be such as to express the meaning of the name in such a ways as to confirm what scholarship had found out about it, and also to clear up those problems which archaeologists had so far failed to solve.... One theory of the name is that it represents the words βαφὴ μήτεος, the baptism of wisdom; another, that it is a corruption of a title meaning "Father Mithras". Needless to say, the suffix R supported the latter theory. I added up the word as spelt by the Wizard. It totalled 729. This number had never appeared in my Cabbalistic working and therefore meant nothing to me. It however justified itself as being the cube of nine. The word κηφας, the mystic title given by Christ to Peter as the cornerstone of the Church, has this same value. So far, the Wizard had shown great qualities! He had cleared up the etymological problem and shown why the Templars should have given the name Baphomet to their so-called idol. Baphomet was Father Mithras, the cubical stone which was the corner of the Temple.
I believe Crowley Did corroborate this connection of "wisdom" with baphomet  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.226.178 (talk) 04:57, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article is self contradicting, please research, Baphamut/Baphomet and wisdom/knowledge/Sophia 

message: http://web.archive.org/web/20000309222614/http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/3164/Baphomet.htm  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C518:6C40:499D:147D:E714:C6DE (talk) 01:13, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The name Baphomet was derived from a Cypher from the name YEHOVAH and YESHUWA 

message: Sincerely I would like to add something or would someone please add the truth to this page. Baphomet among many other demons such as Baal and Legion are mentioned in the bible. Clearly that is way before the 14th century. Some instances are mentioned in the old testament going even farther back. Someone please correct this mistake?
Mark B. (ref) King James Bible.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.172.253.252 (talk) 18:21, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baphomet 

message: Would it be possible to find an image that represents better the historical Baphomet (that is, the three-face head that the Templars suppossedly adored) and place it at the top of the page? I find the current images misleading. Surely, Levi's interpretation is the most popular, but precisely for this reason, it would be better if the article didn't reinforce the misconception that Baphomet has something to do with goats or satanism (at least originally). The goat/Satan connection came much later, and it's a complete invention made by individuals like Levi or modern societies such as LaVey's Satanic Church. The current images would be better in the Levi's section at the bottom of the page, IMO.83.57.60.10 (talk) 16:33, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: While I agree with the sentiment, the real stumbling block is that the head with (up to) three faces that the Templars, in their trials for heresy, were accused of worshipping was only ever described verbally, and wholly inconsistently. Any images derived from those descriptions would be no less speculative than that offered by Eliphas Levi. For example, one might suggest the concept underlying this 'head' could have been a three-dimensional tetrahedron which, when carried in procession on a platter as in some of the Templars accusers' testimonies, would have only three visible faces. Not to mention the first syllable of tetrahedron sounding like the French word tête (head), which might have been misconstrued during those trials, which were held mostly around France. While this explanation seems to me to be a front-runner, it still lacks independent corroboration. --DStanB (talk) 11:14, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Baphomet pictures

message: Greetings! There was recently added a new paragraph to Baphomet#Modern interpretations and usage about some 8chan subforum name. Now taking a closer look, I can't but wonder why this and some Gamergate scandal - aside from the name - would be relevant to the article. Kencf0618? Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 17:20, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The contemporary usage of the name in connection with GamerGate and the doxxing of a federal judge -neither are which are exactly chopped liver- is exactly the point. kencf0618 (talk) 20:11, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  So all that's in common with the article and some website's subforum, is the name? If so, then it's very tangentially related to the topic. This article is about mythology, not about gaming. Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 20:40, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  By that logic it's not about any incarnations of the Tarot deck, either, yet there they are. Not that I see any hat note about mythology. kencf0618 (talk) 23:57, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article falls under categories Thelema and LaVeyan Satanism, both of which are religious movements. Also at Baphomet (disambiguation), the article is described as "Baphomet is a demonic image used in occult and historical references.". A name of a forum - especially when it doesn't even deal with the content - is highly unrelated to the topic on hand. Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 11:58, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  8chan and Gamergate - What's the relevance towards the article? 

message: I have removed the box saying that this article contains speculative or unverified information.  It's an article about the occult.  Well, uh, not only is the content of occult beliefs unverified, but any assertion about beliefs about that content is necessarily unverifiable, if for no  other reason than that a substantial number of the believers are total loons and anything you verify them as believing today will have changed by this time tomorrow.  Daylight Saving Time applies.
 
As a general proposition, I find Wikipedia littered with far too many of these moronic boxes interjecting silly editorial notions.
 
I'm reminded that back in the Nixon Administration, when the Federal auto safety regulations were just getting under way, there was a posting in the Federal Register to the effect that the newest Rolls Royce had far too much horsepower, and the citizenry had the right to comment on some proposed limitation by doing thus-and-so.  Just one citizen performed the thus-and-so, commenting that the proposed regulation was, all things considered, totally lunatic.  The Feds saw the point and dropped it. 
There is hope.
 
David Lloyd-Jones (talk) 13:00, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Speculation" Thought Unverifiable.  Might Even Be Speculative. 

message: "Yet Malcolm Barber observes that historians 'find it difficult to accept that an affair of such enormity rests upon total fabrication.'"
Exactly the mentality of Stalinist apologists for the Moscow Trials and other horrors with the same ideological "religious" backdrop.  In particular I am always reminded of the fate of the Templars when contemplating the purge of Marshal Tukhachevsky and the Soviet General Staff.  Nest of spies and traitors unearthed! Fascist rats exposed! Huh, the bulwark of the nation's defense, it's most heroic and dedicated warriors are now nothing but dogs--t? So the Knight Templar the shock troops of the Crusaders were actually vile heretics in league with Satan all along!  The insidious methodology of diabolical back stabbing tyrants from Tiberius (think Lin Biao in the role of Sejanus) to King Philip to Stalin, Mao and Kim.  I really think the latter three actually studied the history and methods of the Inquisition.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.198.30.48 (talk) 19:08, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charges Against Knights Templar Couldn't Have Been Wholly Fabricated? 

message: The lead refers to the Baphomet representing a "heretical" tradition. Is that perhaps a typo? Is perhaps "hermetical" what's meant? I realise that both words kind of fit, but hermetical surely makes more sense in this context. Brooklyn Eagle (talk) 00:16, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heretical or Hermetical? 

message: The pull quotes are way too long. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 07:22, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pull quotes 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: These changes by  appear to be supported by WP:FRINGE sources instead of professionally-published mainstream academic sources.
 takes for granted ideas that Eliphas Levi made up.  Whatever their spiritual validity, historically, that idea does not predate Levi.
 - This is not supported by a source at all.
 - This cites a WP:PRIMARY source and is original research.
 cites the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition, for which "the outdated nature of some of its content makes its use as a source for modern scholarship problematic."  Not only that, but that portion cites the line "A Serpent was the Egyptian equivalent of Scorpio," which says nothing of Gnosticism or "soft wisdom."
 cites a Bible verse that does not even say the Serpent is/was wise.  Even if it did, it'd be personal interpretation of a primary source, which we don't do here.
I'm not going to bother going through the rest of it.
 Did you know that citations are supposed to actually support their claims and be relevant to them?  They're not just footnotes for tangentially related claims. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:13, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes by Ksshd 

message: Baphomet is a deity allegedly worshipped by the Knights Templar[4] that subsequently became incorporated into various occult and mystical traditions. The name Baphomet appeared in trial transcripts for the Inquisition of the Knights Templar starting in 1307.[5] It first came into popular English usage in the 19th century during debate and speculation on the reasons for the suppression of the Templars.[6]
An 1856 depiction of the Sabbatic Goat from Dogme et Rituel de la Haute Magie by Éliphas Lévi.[1][2] The arms bear the Latin words SOLVE (dissolve) and COAGULA (coagulate).
An 1897 goat pentagram from La Clef de la Magie Noire by French occultist Stanislas de Guaita.[1][3] The words refer to Samael and Lilith.
Since 1856, the name Baphomet has been associated with the "Sabbatic Goat" image drawn by Éliphas Lévi,[1][2][7] which contains binary elements representing the "symbolization of the equilibrium of opposites"[1] (e.g. half-human and half-animal, male and female, good and evil, etc.).[1][2] On one hand, Lévi's intention was to symbolize his concept of balance that was essential to his magnetistic notion of the Astral Light;[1][2] on the other hand, the Baphomet represents a tradition that should result in a perfect social order.[1][2] 2601:40A:4200:D530:0:0:0:7BAA (talk) 07:22, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  T 

message: See here: http://wisdomofhypatia.com/OM/BA/PP.html  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.167.126.25 (talk) 02:55, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Pythagorean pentacle]]

message: :I'm not sure what you're trying to tell us with this paragraph, though. (Trigaranus (talk) 15:03, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Some points made by an anonymous contributor (better title, I hope)

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:23, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: the information on the baphomet wikipedia page is FALSE INFORMATION on who baphomet truly is. Baphomet is NOT SATANIC he is strictly a pagan god and people need to know the real knowledge about him so I SUGGEST this information on here gets changed immediately!! Jeziahnightz619 (talk) 16:01, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  the information posted on baphomet wikipedia page is FALSE INFORMATION on who baphomet truly is 

message: “The terrible Baphomet is, in fact, like all monstrous enigmas of ancient science, nothing more than an innocent and even pious hieroglyph.” - Éliphas Lévi in the 19th century
The mysterious origins of the legend Baphomet have been speculated upon by historians and researchers for many hundreds of years. There have been many erroneous claims that have been made, such as Baphomet represents Satan or evil, which is simply not true. My hopes are that the facts below and my previous articles that I have written will help illuminate the truth behind who this “horned god” truly represents.
In my previous article titled, The Meaning of Baphomet, I had detailed that the name Baphomet is derived from the phrase, TEM OHP AB (Temple omnium hominum pads abba), which is simply Latin for “father of the temple, universal peace of men.” TEM OHP AB spelled backwards is where we get the word “Baphomet.”
In the book, “The mysteries of magic: a digest of the writings of Eliphas Lévi by Éliphas Lévi and Arthur Edward Waite, it explains the reason why this name was chosen. Éliphas Lévi is also the artist who had given us the best known image of this Idol.
“The Baphomets of the Templars, whose names should be spelt kabbalistically backward, is composed of three abbreviations—TEM OHP AB, Temple omnium hominum pads abbas, the father of the temple, universal peace of men. According to some, it was a monstrous head, according to others, a goat-shaped demon. A sculptured casket unearthed in the ruins of an ancient commandry of the Templars was observed by antiquaries to be a baphometic figure, conformable in its attributes to our goat of Mendes and the androgyne of Khunrath. It is bearded, but with the entire body of a woman; in one hand it holds the sun, in the other the moon, joined to it by chains. This virile head is a beautiful allegory which attributes to thought alone, the first and creative cause. The head here represents mind, and the female body matter. The stars, bound to the human form and directed by that nature of which intelligence is the head, have also a sublime significance.
The terrible Baphomet is, in fact, like all monstrous enigmas of ancient science, nothing more than an innocent and even pious hieroglyph.
Let us declare emphatically to combat the remnants of manichaeanism; that Satan, as a superior personality and power, has no existence.
THE DEVIL IN BLACK MAGIC IS THE GREAT MAGIC AGENT EMPLOYED FOR EVIL PURPOSES BY A PERVERSE WILL.”
There you have the truth from one of the greatest authorities on Baphomet that the world has ever known. Éliphas Lévi graciously tells us point blank that Baphomet does not represent evil or the man-made entity we know of today as Satan. He clearly states that the image of Baphomet is nothing more than an innocent and even pious hieroglyph. In addition, Levi declares that Satan, as a superior personality and power, has no existence.
33rd Degree Freemason, Albert Pike had written in Morals and Dogma; “The Gnostics held that it [universal agent] composed the igneous [pertaining to fire] body of the Holy Spirit, and it was adored in the secret rites of the Sabbat or the Temple under the hieroglyphic figure of Baphomet or the hermaphroditic goat of Mendes .” [Pike, op. cit., p. 734, teaching of the 28th Degree]
However, unfortunately, many authors and researchers who have produced books, movies and articles have simply massacred the true meaning of this great horned God. What this has done over time, has just created more confusion to the point today that it appears most people equate Baphomet with evil or Satan, which is simply not true.
Manly P. Hall had written in his book, Dionysian Mysteries and Masonry that the image of Baphomet is NOT a Christian Devil but a symbol of the ancient Alchemists representing Nature and natures God being a Combination & Balance of Male andFemale forces, light and darkness;
“The Goat of Mendes or BAPHOMET whom the Templars were accused of worshipping is a Goat Headed deity, being formed of both male and female principles, with a Caduceus of Mercury in oplace of its Phallus.
One arm points up and one down , with the Latin ‘ Solve et Coagula’ written on them (meaning: ‘flow and ebb’)
This is NOT the image of a Christian Devil but a symbol of the ancient Alchemists representing Nature and natures God being a Combination & Balance of Male andFemale forces, light and darkness, moisture and dryness.
The very principle of Hermes Trismegitus: As Above So Below” is what is symbolized by BAPHOMET…”
If you think this symbol is evil or have been mislead, you are what is called a “non-initiate” who is considered “profane” to the secret mysteries and secret knowledge that is contained in such stories, words or images. As I stated above, this is the whole purpose of the kabbalist and priest scribes who use secret words or allegories in order to conceal the truth from the uninitiated.
Manly Hall had written in Baphomet: The Goat of Mendes (1936);
“The practice of Magick — either White or Black — depends upon the ability of the Adept to control the Universal Life Force – that which Eliphas Levi calls the great magical agent or astral light. By the manipulation of this fluidic Essence, the Phenomena of ‘Transcendentalism’ are thus produced.The famous Hermaphroditic (i.e. androgynous, male-female) Goat of Mendes was a Composite Creature formulated to symbolize this very astral Light.
It is identical with BAPHOMET, the mystic Pan Theos (‘god of All Nature’) of those disciples of ceremonial Magick… who probably obtained it from the Arabs.”
Baphomet is also a symbol of initiation into the secret mysteries. An idol or hieroglyph that represents the God Amon (Jupiter Amon or Amon-Ra) who is “The Hidden One,” “King of the Gods,” and the “Lord of the Thrones” of the visible and the invisible worlds. In addition, as I stated above, the meaning of Baphomet is “Father of the Temple, universal peace of men.” The “father” would be “Amon,“which is known in science as the hippocampus or Ammon’s Horn.
The temple would be your body along with your head etc. As it was said in Egypt; “The body is the house of God,” and one of the many proverbs is “Man, know thyself … and thou shalt know the gods.” When you know thyself, and live in harmony with nature, you are now one with God. Hence, you come to a point of “universal peace of men.”
In my articles titled, Ammon’s Horn and Amon – King of Gods and Lord of Thrones, I explained exactly what the God Amon Amons Horns Mosesrepresents and since Baphomet is Amon, this information all ties together. In these articles I detail how each of us humans has Baphomet or a hidden “God Amon” that sits in the middle of the brain that is part of the temporal lobe called the Ammon’s horn (Amuns Horn), also known as the hippocampus. In neuroanatomy, Ammon’s Horn is a metaphor that relates to the gods and the brain.
The image we see today of Baphomet is identified by the image of the ram which is actually one of the most important gods in theJupiter Ammon history of the Egyptian empire. The Egyptian/Greek deity known as Amon (Amon-Ra or Jupiter Amon) is sometimes represented as a ram of a blue color, and sometimes as a man with the horns of a ram, or wearing a cap with two high plumes.
This religion of Amon-Ra is the oldest noted in Egyptian antiquity, with the Amon-Ra priesthood being the most powerful clergy that Egypt has ever known. The God Amon was worshiped under the ram’s horns in the East for many thousands of years. The god Amon was tended by the priests of the great Theban temple of Karnak and also worshiped in Mendes, called Banebdjed (Ba of the lord of djed or “the Lord of Mendes”), who was the soul of Osiris.
Thebes was founded in 1500 BC by a Phoenician Prince named Cadmus. The meaning of Thebes is from the word Theba that signifies ‘Ark.’ The capital for their religion was located in the City of Light, or what we know of as Luxor. The God they had worshipped was god Amon-Ra (Jupiter-Amon). At the temple at Luxor there are many Ram Sphinxs that symbolize God Amon Ra.
On the Ptolemaic tablet he is called:
The King of Upper and Lower Egypt, the living spirit of Ba, the living spirit of Shu, the living spirit of Seb, the living spirit of Osiris, the spirit of spirits, the lord of lords, the heir in the city of Tonen (Mendes). In another part of the same text it is said of him: appearing on the horizon with four heads, illuminating heaven and earth, coming as Nile, causing the earth to live, and {giving) the air to mankind.
The Priesthood of Amon-Ra from Egypt were the main inheritors of this secret mystery religion that initiated very famous people such as Alexander the Great who is described in the Bible as a “A Ram on the Rampage”; in Daniel (8:3-4) - “Then I lifted my gaze and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last. 4 I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand before him, nor was there anyone to rescue from his power; but he did as he pleased and magnified himself.”
The ram’s horn since the most ancient times was always a sign of authority, power and dignity. The incarnation of Amon, a curled ram’s horn that is known today as a “shofar” was the only natural vocal instrument that the priests were permitted to use as recorded in the scripture. The Israelites and the Levite priests had also used the rams horn or “shofar.” The modern Jews today confess their sins in the month of September by blowing a ram’s horn to announce the ceremony which they say drives away the Devil.
The God Amon who was later called Amon-Ra or Jupiter Amon and today is known as Baphomet, is also in ancient Roman jupiter statuereligion and myth.
Jupiter (Latin: Iuppiter) or Jove is the king of the gods and the god of sky and thunder. The Romans regarded Jupiter as the equivalent of Greek Zeus, and in Latin literature and Roman art, the myths and iconography of Zeus are adapted under the name Iuppiter. The Latin name Iuppiter originated as a vocative compound of the Old Latin vocative *Iou and pater (“father”) and came to replace the Old Latin nominative case *Ious. Jove is a less common English formation based on Iov-, the stem of oblique cases of the Latin name. Linguistic studies identify the form *Iou-pater as deriving from the Indo-European vocative compound *Dyēu-pəter (meaning “O Father Sky-god”; nominative: *Dyēus-pətēr).
The Greek historian Herodotus credits Hesiod and Homer as not only being the first poets of Greece, but also that they had created for the Greeks a genealogy of the gods, which gave the gods their epithets. It appears that Homer and Hesiod had introduced many Gods into Greek mythology with their poetry, and with the end result possibly being that Jupiter Amon got lost in time or was voted out by other new prettier or physically pleasing Gods. Jupiter was the chief deity of Roman state religion throughout the Republican and Imperial eras, until the Empire came under Christian rule. As I stated in my previous articles titled, Isis – Goddess of Darkness, and Chaos and Isis Becomes the Virgin Mary, Christianity is based on the Cult or Religion of Isis that had spread from the East throughout the Roman Empire during the formative centuries of Christianity. The Cult of Isis is now part of the world’s largest religion known today as Catholicism where she is now known as the Queen of Heaven, the Blessed Virgin Mary.
This was when the light of the King of Gods and Lord of Thrones who represents the brightness of the day, Jupiter Amon was isis vulturehidden in the darkness of night under the veil of Isis. The name Isis means “Throne” or “She of the Throne.” Her headdress is frequently shown with a vulture resting on top of her head (throne) with horns holding what appears to be Jupiter Amon. In Egypt she was frequently called Man, and her totem there was a vulture.
If Jupiter Amon is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, then what would this make Isis? Could she be Amon’s vulture like Satan (adversary)? Hence, the enemy of man and the light for which she devours by concealing the truth that the God Amon resides upon our thrones under her veil. Isis declares, “I am Isis, the great Goddess, the Mistress of Magic, the Speaker of Spells.”
A myth reported as “Egyptian” in Gaius Julius Hyginus’ Poetic Astronomy that Pan in his goat-god aspect — was attacked by the monster Typhon, he dove into the Nile; the parts above the water remained a goat, but those under the water transformed into a fish.
In the book, “Psychology of the Unconscious: A Study of the Transformations and Symbolisms,” by Carl Gustav Jung and Beatrice M. Hinkle, we find the truth; that yes, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords does have an adversary and it appears to be Isis, who is also Typhon.
The Ammon’s Horn had special significance to our ancestors for many thousands of years and one testament of this would be the fact that they had worshiped the image of the ram who was sacred to Amon. This immortal fact can be found in the form of the ancient art that they left behind, that I feel helps prove to us today that they were showing us the Ammon’s Horns. That which is in the same exact locations on our heads where the hippocampus can be found. It is with these ancient images, allegorical stories and modern science, that we can now piece together this amazing story in order for the truth to shine brightly by honoring their great work.
Someday in the not so distant future, will these hidden legends such as the God Amon that were such a large part of Egyptian mythology, they will also become part of modern-day culture as we learn more about the science and power hidden in the mysterious hippocampus that is now coming to light. Facts, such as that of the head and horn of the ram which were symbolic of immortality, memory, activity and creative energy in us humans. Modern day revelations such as the fact that this region of the brain is associated with long-term memory storage and the hippocampal neurons known as place cells that play a major role in causing the sensation of familiarity known as déjà vu and reincarnation. It is said that when a small subset of our hippocampal neurons dies and is reborn; the mind is in a constant state of reincarnation.
The French Déjà vu, in English means “already seen” and it was Plato who had said that déjà vu is a real memory of events Baphometthat took place in a previous existence that proves the theory of reincarnation. Plato held in his beliefs that education was not new learned information, but a real memory of events that took place in a previous life. Platonic epistemology holds that knowledge is innate, so that learning is the development of ideas … Thus, when something is “learned” it is actually just “recalled. … The goal of Recollection is to get back to true Knowledge.
The God known today as Baphomet will forever be connected to the Knights Templars. But the facts are that this ram horned God was symbolized long before the advent of the Templars under such names as Amon, Amon-Ba or Ra, Jupiter Amon and also as the infamous pious hieroglyph made famous by Elphias Levi. An image of an ancient deity that is actually a God who resides inside of each and every one of us.
Isn’t it time that you connected with “The Amen, the true and faithful witness,” Rev. i. 14 or Baphomet? For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God. - 2 Corinthians 1:20
Moe/Gnostic Warrior Jeziahnightz619 (talk) 16:07, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: i am editing the information on the baphomet wikipedia page cause the information that was on it was False baphomet is not satanic and people should know the real information about the pagan god known as baphomet Jeziahnightz619 (talk) 16:26, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  who baphomet truly is and what baphomet truly isnt  

message: THIS IS NOT COOL THE INFORMATION I MADE ON THE WIKIPEDIA PAGE FOR BAPHOMET SHOULD NOT BE GETTING REVERTED BACK TO FALSE INFORMATION IT HAD ON IT SOMEONE BETTER FIX THIS MESS AND FIX IT ASAP Jeziahnightz619 (talk) 16:33, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: YES I AM Jeziahnightz619 (talk) 16:45, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Original research is not considered a reliable source by Wikipedia policy. Please note that you may be blocked from editing if you contain to disruptively edit. Sneezless (talk)  (contribs) 16:49, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

text: read what i posted here in this wiki talk where it says who baphomet truly is and what baphomet truly isnt that is the reliable information ive been posting to the wiki page of baphomet cause it is the true information on who and what the baphomet is and isn't, im getting tired of people using false information on this kind of subject when it comes to pagan deities and it needs to stop people need to stop labeling everything satanic when its not!! Jeziahnightz619 (talk) 16:50, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if you have evidence in the talk page of an article, it needs to be backed up by other sources, which need to be referenced to in the text. While the issue may be one of perspective in this case, and you may be correct, if you can't back your knowledge up with reliable sources, it has no place in an article. The policies I refer to here can be found at WP:NOR and WP:RS. Sneezless (talk)  (contribs) 17:00, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: the source of this information i posted is from gnostic warrior moe bedard from gnosticwarrior.com/who-is-baphomet.html Jeziahnightz619 (talk) 17:07, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

text: and yes, it is a reliable source of information on baphomet Jeziahnightz619 (talk) 17:09, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Self-published sources, including blogs, are not considered reliable sources under WP:RS. Sneezless (talk)  (contribs) 17:15, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

text: the original information on the wiki page of baphomet is false and needs to be changed Jeziahnightz619 (talk) 17:10, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: If you wish to change the article, use WP:CITE. Changing the article is fine, doing so repeatedly with unsourced content is not, and is considered disruptive. Sneezless (talk)  (contribs) 17:17, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: you know what how bout this you take the information i posted and you make the changes with it on the wikipedia page of baphomet how bout that? then that way the correct information wont be considered unreliable or vandalism etc since wikipedia wants to soooo tedious on corrected information Jeziahnightz619 (talk) 17:27, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is not who is making the changes, but whether the information used to make those changes is reliable or not. As I have said previously, blogs are not considered reliable under WP:RS. What you doing was considered disruptive because you did so multiple times despite your edits being reverted. If you wish to improve Baphomet, please use sources that are considered reliable under WP:RS. Sneezless (talk)  (contribs) 17:41, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  WHY IS MY EDITED INFORMATION BEING REVERTED WHEN THE ORIGINAL INFO OF BAPHOMET IS FALSE INFO?? 

message: There is no substantive evidence proving the Knights Templar worshipped Baphomet. It's complete misinformation￼ 73.126.242.138 (talk) 15:35, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You caught the word "allegedly" in there, right? Please tell me you did. Baphomet came to prominence as supposed deity precisely because the King of France accused the Templars of worshipping him. Does not mean they did. That's what the word "allegedly" does there. It's an adverb. Meaning it's an allegation. Trigaranus (talk) 19:44, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening sentences are factually incorrect  

message: What do you think guys, time to semi-protect this article? Too many silly edits of late. Trigaranus (talk) 19:49, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: *Support: the revision history of this article is enough to demonstrate that it requires at least semi-protection due to the continuous disruptive editing by several anonymous IPs that has occurred since March 2023. GenoV84 (talk) 19:03, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-Protect 

message: Do you think it's worth creating redirects for common typos of Baphomet, or is that mostly pointless? The typos I'm thinking of are mostly missed letters, like Baphmet or Baphoet. Sneezless (talk)  (contribs) 16:42, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creating redirects of typos