Talk:Blue Riband

message: This article needs distance in kilometres and speed in km/h. Lightmouse (talk) 12:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: (First comment)

message: The last "superliner" to hold the trophy was SS United States, which set a time that was not beaten until 1990.</br>
That makes it sound as though it no longer has one of the trophies. Traumatic (talk) 10:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct: The United States no longer holds the Hales Trophy, and no longer holds the record for an eastbound crossing by a commercial vessel. (It also no longer holds the record for a westbound crossing, though the current holder isn't a commercial vessel). OTOH, as the Blue Riband is pretty much a dead letter now, the United States was the last winner of the Blue Riband accolade. Xyl 54 (talk) 20:02, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Westbound 

message: Anyone know why the Inman Line City of Paris of 1866 and the Cunard Line Russia of 1867 are not included on this list?  Gibbs reports that in November 1866, the City of Paris won record in the western direction and Russia won the eastbound record in 1867.  Specifically, the City of Paris recorded a 8 days, 4 hours 1 minute (13.75 knot) voyage from Queenstown to New York and Russia recorded 8 days, 0 hours, 28 minutes (14.2 knots) from New York to Queenstown.  Apparently, while the City of Paris had a longer time than the Scotia record, she claimed a faster speed because she supposedly used a longer route than Scotia.  Russia's record appears to be both faster and shorter.   
(GRUBBXDN (talk) 16:06, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Inman ''City of Paris'' and Cunard ''Russia''

message: The tables for the eastbound record holders and Hales Trophy holders are careful to point out they are "Not to be confused with Blue Riband holders"; but if the term only came into use (and the rules set down) around 1910, surely the westbound record holders before then weren't Blue Riband winners either. Surely they shoud be tabled separately with the same (or a similar) caveat. Does anyone know when this codification actually happened? Xyl 54 (talk) 19:35, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: (answered; below. Xyl 54 (talk) 20:02, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tables 

message: Is the Blue Riband designation limited to steamships? Sailing packets had achieved considerably better than the time achieved by Sirius and by that time they had all the qualities of passenger liners: regularly schedules, taking of passengers, etc.
According to Carl Cutler, the packet ship Emerald sailed from Liverpool to Boston in 15 days 10 hours arriving on March 8, 1824. This was certainly exceptional, although a time of 15 days 23 hours was achieved by the Columbia from Portsmouth to New York arriving April 17, 1830. See Greyhound of the Seas (3rd ed), 1984, p410. Chris55 (talk) 09:08, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Not only limited to steamships, the Blue Riband title wasn't used prior to 1890, so the list of record-holders was largely retrospective when it was compiled. And no, a list of record-breaking sailing ships would be irrelevant to the subject. Xyl 54 (talk) 20:02, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Limited to steamships? 

message: Would the Titanic have won the Blue Riband if it had arrived safely?
141.117.1.162 (talk) 16:53, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not a discussion page for the topic, only for the article. Chris55 (talk) 17:12, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: True. That said, the answer is no. White Star was not interested about Blue Riband. --Mikoyan21 (talk) 14:55, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Would the Titanic have won? 

message: I cannot beleive that this list is full of English ships. I am sure that ther emust have been Dutch ships crossing at winning speeds - but they are left out of the classification as it appears. Is this another example of the Anglo-Saxon media bubble happening? 94.213.30.93 (talk) 19:33, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Believe it: the Dutch Atlantic shipping line (Holland America) seems to have been uninterested in the competition. Its liners of the period (Rotterdam  (nl), Nieuw Amsterdam) were consistently several knots slower than their Cunard counterparts. Xyl 54 (talk) 20:02, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dutch ships 

message: It says in the body of the article that the Red Jacket crossed eastbound in 13 days ish -- but it is not in the corresponding table. Is there a reason for this?</br>
Also should a column designating sail vs powered crossing be entered?
69.25.143.33 (talk) 20:57, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: No; see above. Xyl 54 (talk) 20:02, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was the Red Jacket omitted from the tables for a reason? And should a category for sail vs powered be included? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I've tried to resolve the anomalies mentioned above: Having read Kludas's book now I can see where they stem from. Although it is excellent in many respects and contains a wealth of information, it also holds a number of contradictions and statements of the authors opinion rather than fact.
First, after observing that there are no official rules for this competition, and that the Blue Riband title was given primarily by newspapers which were sometimes contradictory (as one might expect) Kludas has, with Germanic precision, created a set of rules which he has then applied retrospectively to the subject. (He pretty much says on p25 that he made the rules up himself).
Second, after observing that the term Blue Riband only came into common use in 1910 he has anachronistically labelled all record-breakers that met his criteria back to 1840 as Blue Riband winners, something which is not historically accurate.
So, the rule that the accolade Blue Riband only applies to westbound journeys is not traditional, at all; the resolution imposed by Kludas on the contradictions he sees in the primary sources. So limiting the term to westbound voyages only is not supportable, and we shouldn't do it here. Also, referring to record-holders of Victorian times is anachronistic, and we shouldn't do that, either.
Accordingly I've edited the statement in the introduction, and deleted the caveat in the table of westbound record holders; and  I have amended the designation to “record-holder” throughout, and reserved the accolade “Blue Riband winner” to those ships for which there is a contemporary source (such as the newspapers of the time)
I trust everyone is OK with that. Xyl 54 (talk) 21:52, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradictions 

message: Granted, the article states the route used varied depending on sea conditions.  But it make sense to have some sort of visual indication. Will (Talk - contribs) 06:36, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maybe show a map with the typical route? 

message: As mentioned above, the article previously suggested the Blue Riband accolade only applied to westbound voyages, which is not supported by contemporary sources. So I changed that in April.</br>
OTOH it also says the Hales Trophy was awarded for records set in either direction, which is also not the case; it seems that the notion of westbound records being the only ones that counted was Hales' idea in 1935. So I have changed that too.</br>
In any event, it only affected four ships :Rex and Normandie, which set their first records going west anyway, the Queen Mary, which set the record west but didn't get the Hales Trophy, and the United States, which was acclaimed as Blue Riband winner on her eastbound voyage, though presumably didn't get the Hales Trophy until she had returned home. In any event, it seems the Hales Trophy committee have changed their minds on that now, too, Xyl 54 (talk) 19:48, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Westbound, again 

message: As mentioned above, the history of the Blue Riband competition was compiled retrospectively, and is regarded by all the sources used here as starting with the race between Sirius and Great Western. So the section on packet ships, while interesting, is out of place here (and if the implication is that they were part of the Blue Riband story, borders on Original Research/Synthesis) So I have removed it. As it is primarily about the Black Ball Line, I have added it to that article, which IMO makes a good addition there.</br>
However, the point that Sirius and Great Western were not the fastest ships on the Atlantic run (nor were they the first steam ships to cross) is well-made, and I have included it in a new Background section for the article. I trust everyone is OK with that. Xyl 54 (talk) 22:16, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sailing ships, again