Talk:Tyrian purple

message: I know that Wiktionary  says that TP is a crimson, but it gives no reference.  The swatch I added is a purple, and has a reference that claims to be based on the real  Murex trunculus.  If anyone can find a reliable reference to support the Wiktionary version, then I'll amend my swatch or add an alternative one. --Heron 11:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Merriam-Webster OnLine says that Tyrian purple is "crimson or purple". The American Heritage Dictionary says "reddish". Also, the Wikipedia article on purple says that Tyrian purple "was closer to crimson than our idea of purple", but it gives no reference. --Zundark 10:02, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Why? Where do you get the phrase Tyrian red from? As you've just said, the colour of the Tyrian dye (that is, Tyrian purple) was dark red. Also, looking in my copy of Chambers I find that the first meaning given for purple is "crimson (hist.)". It seems clear that the meaning of purple has changed over time (which is common for colour names), and that Tyrian purple (from which the word purple derives) was not purple in the usual modern-day sense. --Zundark 10:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Maybe those quotes could be included in the article. (By the way, I notice that the page that says RHS 66A is RGB b80049 is using a gamma of only 1.4, so it would need to be adjusted in order to be correct for sRGB, the usual RGB colour space). --Zundark 19:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A note

message: As I write, this article contains two uses of BCE (one in a footnote) and two of BC. This ought to be standardised - I haven't done so as I don't know whether there's a convention for articles on this subject to use one in particular. 86.132.143.27 23:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made them consistent. There is no Wikipedia convention on which to use, but BCE is unknown to many people, so using BC makes the article clearer. --Zundark 08:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dates 

message: I've added a photo of 6,6'-dibromoindigo powder against a neutral gray background.  In the coming weeks I'll attempt to dye some swatches of cotton and wool using the procedure given by V. Daniels, Journal of Photochemistry and Photobiology A:Chemistry 184 p73-77 (2006).  I've only got 250 mg of the stuff but it should be sufficient to dye several 10X10cm piece.  I would expect that the dye on cloth will be slightly different than the powdered dye.  Daniels reports that the dye comes out slightly redder on wool and more blue on cotton and nylon, with the sequence being wool : silk : linen : cotton : nylon. To my mismatched-socks-looks-ok-to-me eye the powder is a very close match to the bar on the front page comparison chart labeled "Tyrian Purple (Imperial Purple) (Hex: #66023C) (RGB: 102, 2, 60)" __________.  The actual color produced by extracting snail juice can vary quite a bit.  During the dying process, the water soluble leuco form of 6,6'-dibromoindigo can photodebrominate under UV, which renders the shade more blueish and less purple.  Two debrominations yield plain old indigo.  Sex, age and species differences in the various Murex shells give different amounts of mono and dibromoindigorubin which are more of a reddish purple.  These also can photodebrominate to give the quite red indirubin.  I'll dig out the references and add this if it seems appropriate.  Hey, this is my first edit so cut me some slack. --Brochis 05:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, thanks! For your future images, consider uploading them to the Wikimedia Commons, where they can be used in all Wikimedia projects (the French Wikipedia, the German Wikipedia, Wikibooks, etc.). Once you've uploaded an image to the Commons, you can use it in an article just as if you had uploaded it here. Let me know if you have questions or need any help. —Bkell (talk) 14:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: Quote from the insight book:
The color of the cloak with which Jesus Christ was clothed on the day of his execution has caused some persons to argue that a discrepancy exists in the Bible record with reference to this garment. Matthew said that the soldiers “draped him with a scarlet cloak” (Mt 27:28), while Mark and John say that it was purple. (Mr 15:17; Joh 19:2) However, instead of being a discrepancy, such a variation in describing the garment’s color merely gives evidence of the individuality of the Gospel writers and the fact that they were not in collusion. Matthew described the cloak as it appeared to him, that is, according to his evaluation of color, and he emphasized the garment’s red hue. John and Mark subdued the red tint, calling it purple. “Purple” can be applied to any color having components of both blue and red. So, Mark and John agree with Matthew that the garment was red to some extent. Of course, background and light reflection could have given it different casts. A body of water varies in color at different times, depending upon the particular color of the sky and the reflection of light at a given time. So, when such factors are considered, it is seen that the Gospel writers were not in conflict in describing the color of the cloak that mocking Roman soldiers clothed Christ with on the last day of his human life.
:I love how apologists can take the fact that two accounts contradict each other and claim that it somehow makes their case stronger. Beetfarm Louie (talk) 11:07, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: A reference of Jesus' cloak 

message: The text implies a range of colours, as do the bullets (3), yet on my monitor I'm seeing only the last 2 while the first bullet has blank space to its right. What's up? Ed8r (talk) 23:43, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shades of Tyrian purple colour comparison? 

message: The second picture on the right shows a bright, vibrant chromatic purple color that most people would immediately recognize as "royal purple", while Justinian I's cloak and the RGB samples lower in the article show a much darker redder shade consistent with the "clotted blood" color mentioned by Pliny.
While I realize the term "purple" has likely changed meaning since then, the article shows two vastly different shades, states they are the same thing, then doesn't explain why. I'm in no way a subject matter expert, so many somebody can help out. Bravo Foxtrot (talk) 15:34, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a suspicion that the vibrant purple swatch shown in the image is actually Mauveine, which was marketed as "Tyrian Purple" when it was introduced. The color seems to match the swatch in that article. The image caption claims it's the 6,6'-Dibromindigo, but the original source (German)  makes no mention of the chemical as far as I can tell. But it's definitely inconsistent with the RGB color swatches, and this image of the mollusc: . I suggest we try to find a more verifiable image.  vlad§inger  tlk  03:16, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct. That's not Tyrian purple. Tyrian purple becomes reddish ("clotted blood") when used to dye cloth. -- 202.124.73.147 (talk) 13:32, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: So why is that image still there? 108.34.206.74 (talk) 18:19, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently, no consensus has been reached regarding which image to use in its place. I recommend checking out the image mentioned by vlad§inger, above. If it is available for addition to Wikimedia Commons (I'm unfamiliar with all the image rules), then it should be added, and the proposed image substitution discussed on this Talk page. It's a very illustrative image.--Quisqualis (talk) 18:28, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradictory info 

message: This article should only be about the dye - there should be a separate article about its chemistry. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty | Averted crashes 15:52, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Not necessarily. That all depends on how long this article gets. Per WP:SS, a great many related things can be kept in the same article until length forces a split and summary. Most of the articles on chemical elements (for example) actually do NOT have separate articles about their chemistry. None of the shorter ones do. SBHarris 03:36, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: They belong together. The chemistry is essential to understanding the dye. -- 202.124.73.147 (talk) 13:44, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split 

message: The CMYK for websites doesn't seem to make sense. It's a bright magenta sort of colour. When I turn the RGB one into CMYK I get C52 m99 y81 k7, which looks more like what it should be. 87.246.103.137 (talk) 12:11, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  CMYK for websites 

message: I'm not sure how to best deal with this. No one takes any claims of Phoenicans in Mexico seriously today, but such ideas were very popular up through the middle of the 20th century. I do know that The hyperdiffusionist Grafton Elliot Smith wrote that "After a very thorough and critical analysis of all the facts of this truly remarkable case of transmission of an extraordinary custom, Mrs. Nuttall justly concludes that “it seems almost easier to believe that certain elements of an ancient European culture were at one time, and perhaps once only,
actually transmitted by the traditional small band of . . . Mediterranean seafarers, than to explain how, under totally different conditions of race and climate, the identical ideas and customs should have arisen ” (pp. 383 and 384)." Dougweller (talk) 15:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phoenician claim. 

message: I have removed the [citation needed] tags, replacing them with in-line citations from the two new sources (4 and 17) that I've added. Omnitaus (talk) 19:48, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: I was comparing the english wiki and the italian wiki and they show two different colours for tyrian purple. The italian one is RGB (178; 42; 35) HEX 	#B22A23 __________
it is a shade of red and indeed it is called also red purple in italian. The italian wiki also points out that the english word purple, that for the image of the cloth painted with dibromoindigo in the top of this article, is called violet in italian and is not the true purpura (porpora).
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porpora
19:56, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Purpura from the italian wiki 

message: Considering its description as reddish-purple and hue on the HSV system, it would seem like a good idea to add this to the list and category of shades of magenta and/or red-violet. 165.225.39.71 (talk) 20:21, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Classify as shade of magenta or red-violet? 

message: the section labelled History says that this dye remained in use "until 1453 AD, with the fall of Constantinople." lower down, in the Background section it says that production, "came to an abrupt end with the sack of Constantinople in 1204." picky of me to note that there's only 250 years difference but this needs to be resolved. Constantinople was sacked as part of the fourth Crusade in 1204, but continued to operate as the centre of the Latin Empire of Constantinople until 1261 when it reverted to the Byzantine Empire until 1453 when it was conquered by the Ottoman Turks and became part of their empire. the source cited for the 1453 quote says, on page 25, "In areas ruled by Byzantium, the industry continued until the Turkish conquest of the city in 1453, and Pope Paul II's decree of 1464 that cardinals' robes should, henceforth, be dyed with kermes (an insect dye) rather than whelk dye, is usually considered to indicate a response to the final loss of the industry." I don't have access to the second source for the 1204 quote, but I think it possible that the Wikipedian who wrote the 1204 comment has simply confused sack and fall without realising that they are very different things. Cottonshirtτ 03:52, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  different dates 

message: the name Tyrian purple does not refer to tyre of Lebanon but the more ancient kingdoms like Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy) אמיר יוגב (talk) 06:43, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Tyre, Lebanon"