Talk:Frederick Seitz

message: This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 09:51, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: This article is again degenerating into a springboard to attack Seitz for his views on climate change.  A minor incident in his life may seem extraordinarily significant to those morally committed for or against AGW, but in the context of his extensive, varied, and decorated scientific career, is not.  Noting his views on the subject are apropos, but we must be careful to avoid undue weight, and to including material simply to attempt to cast him in a poor light.  Fell Gleamingtalk 00:37, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Additionally the "this was necessary because..." statement has multiple issues.  One, the lead-in phrase appears to be an editor's opinion, as well as loaded language.  Secondly, its length adds UNDUE issues to the section.  Third, I don't see a source that says the format is "identical", which makes the conclusion synthesis.  Fell Gleamingtalk 00:51, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The length on 28 August was 3 lines (on my screen); now it's 4 and a bit; you can have clarity or brevity, but not both. Your remark above about "this was necessary because..." was correct that it implied NAS wouldn't have said anything if the article hadn't appeared to be a NAS publication, which is speculation. They also stated clearly that scientific opinion was against it. As for UNDUE: the petition is/was a significant factor in the public (obviously not scientific) climate change debate; and Seitz's (solid-state physics-based...) scientific stature (which you're keen to emphasise) was a not insignificant factor in its being taken seriously. Furthermore, any possible UNDUE issues here are more because Seitz's career is undercovered than that the global warming issue is over-covered; it's just a paragraph and the article doesn't even mention SEPP! See eg the Rockefeller U bio  for more science career details to add. Rd232 talk 08:12, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Saying "we need clarity" is no excuse for ignoring undue weight issues.  Nor would I disagree that mentioning Seitz's role in SEPP would be proper.  Furthermore, you still have the larger issue that no source says "this was necessary because..." or "this step was taken because".  That's synthesis, and the opinion of an editor inserted into the argument.   And finally, the undue dwelling on the "similarity" here appears to be COATRACKING the article.  The article exists to explain Seitz, his work and views -- not as an excuse to attack them. Fell Gleamingtalk 10:15, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No matter how often you claim "coatracking" (WP:COATRACK) that doesn't make it true: it's still just one paragraph. The explanation for the NAS action is not synthesis, it's there in the relevant sources. And explaining the facts of the incident is necessary because of Seitz's connection with those facts and the significance of the incident. As for the article not being "an excuse to attack [his views]" - well the paragraph doesn't do that, it's factual: and neither is the article an excuse to whitewash Seitz's significant role in climate change public debate. Rd232 talk 11:59, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I too can't see the UNDUE problems William M. Connolley (talk) 19:20, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shenanigans  

message: That Exxon supplied (some) funding to the George C. Marshall Institute is relevant to that article, but I don't see any reason to included it in this article.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 09:49, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's even less relevant than I thought.  The fact that Exxon supplied some funding between 1999 and 2007 is irrelevant to the fact that he founded the Institute in 1984.  (Information from the Institute's Wikipedia page.  If wrong, please fix it there.)  We don't have any information that he was associated with the Institute during the period Exxon was funding it.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 09:53, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: " We don't have any information that he was associated with the Institute during the period Exxon was funding it." - well (a) we did (paper published in 1994) and (b) we now know he was Chairman until 2004. Rd232 talk 13:06, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Without evidence that Exxon was a significant source of funds for the institute, this still seems WP:UNDUE weight.  I'm not sure it isn't UNDUE in the Institute's article, but it certainly is here.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 15:13, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agree.  Furthermore, even if Exxon was a significant source of funding, that merely makes it relevant to the Marshall Institute's entry, not to Seitz's.  As it stands now, its simply a coatrack attempting to link Exxon funding to Seitz's viewpoint. Fell Gleamingtalk 16:59, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes and no. I agree it should be shown to be significant in size or proportion or else Seitz to be personally responsible (rather than just generally as Chairman at the time it started). But it certainly can be significant enough for inclusion. Rd232 talk 19:41, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exxon 

message: The National Academy of Sciences then disassociated itself from Seitz in 1998 when Seitz headed up a report designed to look like an NAS journal article saying that carbon dioxide poses no threat to climate. The report, which was supposedly signed by 15,000 scientists, advocated the abandonment of the Kyoto Protocol. The report was not peer-reviewed. The NAS went to unusual lengths to publicly distance itself from Seitz' article.
'''
None of this appears to be sourced, and the tone is one of contempt and strongly implies Seitz was deliberately practicing deception.71.161.123.144 (talk) 02:02, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed it. This matter is discussed, in neutral language, in the body of the article. --Pete Tillman (talk) 06:02, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable unsourced intro paragraph 

message: In a 1996 Wall Street Journal article, Seitz criticized the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change of corrupting the peer-review process and censoring skeptical scientists.
http://stephenschneider.stanford.edu/Publications/PDF_Papers/WSJ_June12.pdf
Notable.  Reliably sourced. 71.161.123.144 (talk) 02:24, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seitz Wall Street Journal article on IPCC 

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