Talk:Submediant

message: I have added an audio example to the article. Hyacinth (talk) 20:36, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested audio

message: Why and where does this article need to be cleaned up? How should it be cleaned up? Hyacinth (talk) 06:15, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup

message: WikiProject Music Theory is spearheading a proposal to unify the layout of the scale-degree pages. The discussion can be found here. Since these pages not only include discussion of the scale-degrees, but also occasionally discuss triads and seventh chords built on these scale-degrees, it is important to systemize these pages. This will also curtail the creation of pages for each individual triad and seventh chord, some which may not necessarily contain enough content to be expanded beyond a stub. I invite you to comment on the proposal with thoughts, criticisms, or suggestions. Thanks! — Devin.chaloux (chat) 19:05, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to unify the layout of scale-degree pages 

message: Desperately needs a citation, even though I can think of some examples that might lead to this kind of conclusion. Double sharp (talk) 15:31, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Susan McClary says that modulation to the lowered submediant (in C: A{{music|♭}}) represents a dream-like state of escape." 

message: As with pretty much all terms in music theory save the most common ones (and sometimes not even then), this one has also acquired a completely incompatible meaning – in this case, V of V (see for example p. 12 of Max Reger's Supplement to the Theory of Modulation in the English translation by John Bernhoff). Double sharp (talk) 14:02, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: If I'm correct, that would be a D major chord in a piece whose home key is C major. Note that V of V and ii have the same root, but (in major keys) they're not the same chord. The ii chord in the key of C major is D minor. The V of V is D7, with an F. Georgia guy (talk) 14:16, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

text: A is the note "above" G. Metaphors and translations may not always produce a logical and/or consistent use of terms. Hyacinth (talk) 00:08, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

text: Thus, in C, A is superior to the dominant, G. In Riemannian theory it is also the root of the D minor triad. Hyacinth (talk) 03:49, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Superdominant 

message: In the lead: "It is also the third factor of the subdominant (IV) triad." Why is this sufficiently important to state in a three-line lead paragraph? I note that the uppercase IV is used without explanation, but unless someone can come up with a convincing reason to retain the whole clause, I think it should go.
"It is occasionally called superdominant". Again, is this worth stating right at the top? I'm a music-theory professional, and I've gone through life never having heard that term. Non-expert readers might be served better by not cluttering up the lead with synonymous terms that ... well ... aren't very common. 
"Am is the vi chord in the C major scale"—goodness, can't it be just: "A minor is chord vi in C major"? Why mix up scale-degree with key in the same clause? Tony (talk)  12:51, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason of this mention of the French usage is that it explains why Prout uses it. As I mentioned above, this usage may have been more common in English in the 19th century. The term is still used in W. Apel, Harvard Dictionary of Music, 1950, art. Scale degrees, p. 664: "Scale degrees. Special names and signs used in harmonic analysis to denote the various tones of the scale as they occur as the roots of triads, seventh chords, etc. These names are: tonic (I), supertonic (II), mediant (III), subdominant (IV), dominant (V), submediant or superdominant (VI), subtonic (VII)." Whether this is a sufficient reason, I'll leave others decide. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 10:36, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

text: OK, perhaps it could go into the section "Name" at the bottom, where German usage is also discussed. I can't help feeling that simplicity is important at the start. Tony (talk) 12:47, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weird things 

message: • What is the point of calling the third in a chord its third "factor"? Does it mean something different than "its third"? Is it because "factors" denote pitch classes?
• "Superdominant" obviously comes from the French, where indeed degree VI (or ^6) is called susdominante. This should be said somewhere: this discrepancy of names goes back to the 18th century. "Superdominant" in English was probably more common in the 19th century (in the time of E. Prout) than it is today.
• "The submediant chord is symbolized by the Roman numeral VI if it is major or vi if it is minor." Well, not everybody agrees with this distinction between major (capitals) and minor (lower case Roman numerals). Let's say that it is "often" symbolized so.
• Similarly, the submediant degree is at times symbolized by  – Wikipedia even includes a special tag to notate this.
• "Am is the vi chord in the C major scale". I don't quite see what is "a chord in a scale". Shouldn't it be "in the key of C major"? (Or "on the white keys"?) And what follows goes worse and worse. The explanation about the relatives is confused, and at "F is the VI chord in the A (natural) minor scale" one could be completely lost.
Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 17:17, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional questions 

message: Is this reference to the French really appropriate almost at the opening, while trying to introduce a tricky concept to non-experts? "It is occasionally called superdominant,[3] as the degree above the dominant. This is its normal name (sus-dominante) in French."? Tony (talk) 07:00, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason of this mention of the French usage is that it explains why Prout uses it. As I mentioned above, this usage may have been more common in English in the 19th century. The term is still used in W. Apel, Harvard Dictionary of Music, 1950, art. Scale degrees, p. 664: "Scale degrees. Special names and signs used in harmonic analysis to denote the various tones of the scale as they occur as the roots of triads, seventh chords, etc. These names are: tonic (I), supertonic (II), mediant (III), subdominant (IV), dominant (V), submediant or superdominant (VI), subtonic (VII)." Whether this is a sufficient reason, I'll leave others decide. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 10:36, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

text: OK, perhaps it could go into the section "Name" at the bottom, where German usage is also discussed. I can't help feeling that simplicity is important at the start. Tony (talk) 12:47, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: New questions