Talk:World War II/Archive 27

message: *Japanese capture of eastern China (7 July 1937 - 27 October 1938 (Battle of Wuhan))
*Invasion of Poland (1 September 1939 - 6 October 1939)
*Germany invades the Soviet Union (22 June 1941)
*Japan attacks the United States and European colonies in Southeast Asia (7 December 1941)
*Battle of Midway (4 June 1942 - 7 June 1942)
*Battle of Stalingrad (21 August 1942 – 2 February 1943)
*Second Battle of El Alamein (23 October 1942 - 3 November 1942)
*Operation Torch (8 November 1942 - 11 November 1942)  
*Battle of Kursk (4 July 1943 - 23 August 1943)
*Battle of the Dnieper (24 August 1943 — 23 December 1943)
*Operation Ichigo (19 April 1944 - late December 1944)
*Battle of Normandy (6 June 1944 - 25 August 1944)
*Operation Bagration (22 June 1944 - 19 August 1944)
*Battle of the Bulge (16 December 1944 – 25 January 1945)
*Vistula-Oder Offensive (12 January 1945 - 2 February 1945)
*VE Day (7 May 1945)
*VJ Day (15 August 1945)  Oberiko 17:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Key events

message: There are tables and articles about the number of casualties suffered by the various combatants, along with the number of forces each combatant lost by virtue of their being captured by an enemy.
I think a table or article showing the number of casualties INFLICTED by each combantant, and the number of forces captured by each combatant, would be very interesting.
I have read extensively on WW II, and have searched the Internet, but I have not found any compilation of statistics in this regard.  So, while we know how many Soviets were killed and/or captured, and we can infer that virtually all were killed and/or captured by by the European members of the Axis, it wold be interesting to know how many casualties separate Hungarian and Romanian forces inflicted on the Soviet Union.
Then there are the German and other Axis casualties.  For example, we know that about 5,000,000 German military men were killed.  But who killed how many of them?  And we know that several hundred thousand, if not over a million, Axis forces were captured.  Who captured how many of them?
Thanks.69.238.75.88 17:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Best place to discuss that would be over at Casualties of World War II. Oberiko 17:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I repeated the comment there.69.239.85.204 18:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested Table or Heading-"Casualties Caused By" 

message: I know it's not directly related to this article, but we're having a discussion on a header image for the Iraq war article and I thought it might be helpful to hear some perspectives on how the WWII editors came to their header image. It would be particularly interesting to hear what general rationales or guidelines you used to find your image, especially since your excellent header image is one of our guides. Cheers. Publicus 21:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for help on the Iraq war header image discussion

message: Athough Spain was having their own civil war at the time, I believe that there isn't enough about their sympathy towards Hitler.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.131.87.83 (talk) 21:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Spain may have been something of an economic supporter, but was far from an active participant (I think the Blue Division was their only significant contribution).  Most historians I've read claim that Franco explicitly wanted to remain out of the war, which is why his demands on Germany for Spanish involvement were unreasonably high.  In terms of Portugal, I think the most active combat they were in revolved around the Japanese invasion of Portuguese Timor. Oberiko 13:42, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  spain's involvement (portugal too) 

message: In order to uphold the quality of Wikipedia:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the requirements of the GA criteria as part of the GA project quality task force. Unfortunately, as of October 8, 2007, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at WP:GAN.
The article was awarded GA status back in 2006 and since then the GA criteria has changed significantly. I realize that this article has gone through several FACs and a GA review, and most of these point out the issue of a lack of inline citations. Although the article currently has a good number of inline citations, several sections throughout the article are lacking sources.  The best way to improve the article is to go through the article and add an inline citation for any statement that a reader may question over its verifiability. A few examples of the many statements that need sources include:
#"In January, 1943, the British developed the H2S radar system which was undetectable by Metox."
#"They had assembled around 120 Divisions,consisting of over 2 million men, of which 1.3 million were Americans, 600,000 were British and the rest Canadian, Free French and Polish."
#"Soviet soldiers numbering 135,000 were killed or wounded, 290,000 were captured, while another 250,000 managed to escape."
#"The siege lasted for a total of 900 days, from September 8 1941 until January 27 1944." (Also, full dates should be wikilinked)
#"The subsequent battle resulted in the destruction of German Army Group Centre and over 800,000 German casualties, the greatest defeat for the Wehrmacht during the war."
#Additionally there are several other statements that have "citation needed" tags after them, these should also be addressed.
If necessary, include more online sources if you need to for finding citations for the information. There are also a lot of grammar problems throughout the article, including many sentences that are lacking periods or that do not have inline citations directly following the punctuation. I'd recommend that before nominating the article again that several outside editors who have not contributed to the article look it over and give it a good copyedit. However, the rest of the article looks fine considering meeting the broad, NPOV, and image requirements. Although the length is long, this event is one of the most detailed in history and needs a good representation of all sides of the conflict, which this article does. I didn't see any NPOV statements that stand out, but make sure to go through the article again before nominating to make sure it isn't quick-failed over that. The article has a large number of images, and it's great that they're free. Again, if you address the issues above and check the article against the rest of the GA criteria, consider renominating the article at WP:GAN and let me know and I'll look it over again (so you can avoid the current month+ backlog). If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GA/R. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article's history to reflect this review. Regards, --Nehrams2020 22:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Sweeps Review: Delisted

message: Shouldn't the infobox list the main countries involved in World War II? Currently it is confusing as there is no mention of the main combatants and the link under the combatants section in the infobox only gives a link to another page which is equally confusing in that it lists every singal country involved.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.112.231.58 (talk) 00:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Check the infobox page for that discussion (link at top of this page) for that discussion. Oberiko 00:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: I don't like these terms used in the title for sections. These are used for much smaller units, as companies to regiments, not armygroups. Regrouping is purposly falling back and well regrouping and gathering more supplies and men. This is not being pushed back by the enemy without a choice. Counterattack is also similar, it should be used with a small unit from company to regiment. A counter attack is not done by an armygroup, a counteroffensive is done by an army group. Look at the Battle of the Bulge, it was a German counteroffensive, not a German counterattack. --64.205.199.7 17:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regroup and Counterattack 

message: What happened to the old infobox image at the top of the article (the one that showed the multiple images together).  Now it's just a map. 69.40.247.27 20:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Check Template talk:WW2InfoBox.  We decided to use a map due to neutrality concerns. Oberiko 20:50, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Top Image 

message: ===Draft 1===
On June 22nd, Germany, along with other European Axis members and Finland, invaded the Soviet Union.  Axis forces made significant gains into Soviet territory and inflicted large numbers of casualties until the offensive began to stall as winter approached.  In September, the siege of Leningrad began, and in October a renewed offensive was made against Moscow, the Soviet capital.  After the halt of the German offensive, the Soviet's launched a winter counter-offensive using reserve troops brought up from the border near Japanese Manchuria.
Following the German attack on the Soviets, the United Kingdom began to regroup. In August, they jointly issued the Atlantic Charter with the United States and then, along with the Soviet Union, invaded Iran to secure the Persian Corridor and Iran's oilfields.  In December, they launched a counter-offensive in the desert, reclaiming all gains the Germans and Italians had made.
In Asia, Japan was preparing for war.  The Japanese plan was to create a large perimeter stretching into the western-central Pacific in order to facilitate a defensive war while exploiting the resources of Southeast Asia; as a further precaution, the Japanese also planned to neutralize the United States Pacific Fleet.  In preparation, Japan seized military control of southern Indochina in July, 1941; an action the United States, United Kingdom and other western governments responded to by freezing all Japanese assets.  On December 7th, the Japanese struck, launching near simultaneous offensives against Southeast Asia and the Central Pacific, including an attack on the American naval base of Pearl Harbor.  
These actions prompted the United States, United Kingdom, China, and other Western Allies to declare war on Japan.  Italy, Germany, and the other members of the Tripartite Pact responded by declaring war on the United States.  In January, the United States, United Kingdom, Soviet Union and China issued the Declaration by United Nations, formalizing their alliance against the Axis Powers with the exception that the Soviet Union maintained its neutrality agreement with Japan. 
The Axis Powers, however, were able to continue their offensives.  Japan had almost fully conquered Southeast Asia with minimal losses by the end of April, 1942.  They took large numbers of prisoners in the Philippines, Malaya, Dutch East Indies and Singapore, as well as sinking significant Allied warships not only at Pearl Harbor, but also in the Java and South China seas.  The only real successes against Japan were a repulsion of their renewed attack on Changsha in late December and a psychological strike from a bombing raid on Japan's capital Tokyo in April.
Germany was able to regain the initiative as well.  Exploiting American inexperience with submarine warfare, they sunk significant resources near the American Atlantic coast.  In the desert, they launched an offensive in January, pushing the British back to positions at the Gazala Line by early February. In the Soviet Union, the Soviet's winter counter-offensive had tapered off by March.  In both the desert and the Soviet Union, there followed a temporary lull in combat which Germany used to prepare for their spring offensives.
Comments
Thoughts? Oberiko 16:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would refer to the "bombing raid on Honshū" as the "bombing raid on Japan's capital, Tokyo, and other Japanese cities."  The psychological boost from bombing Japan's CAPITAL was spectacular on the American side.  69.230.175.70 21:37, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed, thanks. I've left out the other cities, as Tokyo, being hit by close to 2/3 of the raids, was clearly the primary target and the one that caused the most impact.  Oberiko 23:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Changsha was a good addition.  I'd rather not include the GEACS though, it's better explained in the article on the expansion itself. Oberiko 12:05, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks Dna-Dennis.  I think you're right in that Barbarossa needs a bit more attention to highlight its importance.  I'm going to leave out the surprise bit, as while Stalin was seemingly surprised, there are historians who argue that he was anticipating it and was actually in preparation for on offensive of his own against Germany; overall, a situation a bit to complex and requiring to much explanation (and counter-explanation) for this article.  I'm also not sure about putting in the German casualties, as they suffered roughly 1/3 those of the Soviets; bear also in mind that the Soviet figure we have includes KIA and POW/MIA, while the Germans include KIA, POW/MIA and injured.  A pretty good ratio by any account. Oberiko 17:25, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I added the bombing of Darwin. Oberiko 02:06, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the St. Nazaire Raid.  I'm not sure if it's noteworthy enough though.Oberiko 14:00, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the Indian Ocean Raid and removed St. Nazaire, the latter only really affected the German surface fleet, which was mostly out of use by this point anyway. Oberiko 17:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Section 4: The war becomes global (22 June 1941 - June 3 1942)

message: On June 22nd, Germany, along with other European Axis members and Finland, invaded the Soviet Union.  Axis forces made significant gains into Soviet territory and inflicted large numbers of casualties until the offensive began to stall as winter approached.  In September, the siege of Leningrad began, and in October a renewed offensive was made against Moscow, the Soviet capital.  After the halt of the German offensive, the Soviet's launched a winter counter-offensive using reserve troops brought up from the border near Japanese Manchuria.
Following the German attack on the Soviets, the United Kingdom began to regroup. In August, they jointly issued the Atlantic Charter with the United States and then, along with the Soviet Union, invaded Iran to secure the Persian Corridor and Iran's oilfields.  In December, they launched a counter-offensive in the desert, reclaiming all gains the Germans and Italians had made.
In Asia, Japan was preparing for war.  The Japanese plan was to create a large perimeter stretching into the western-central Pacific in order to facilitate a defensive war while exploiting the resources of Southeast Asia; as a further precaution, the Japanese also planned to neutralize the United States Pacific Fleet.  In preparation, Japan seized military control of southern Indochina in July, 1941; an action the United States, United Kingdom and other western governments responded to by freezing all Japanese assets.  On December 7th, the Japanese struck, launching near simultaneous offensives against Southeast Asia and the Central Pacific, including an attack on the American naval base of Pearl Harbor.  
These actions prompted the United States, United Kingdom, China, and other Western Allies to declare war on Japan.  Italy, Germany, and the other members of the Tripartite Pact responded by declaring war on the United States.  In January, the United States, United Kingdom, Soviet Union and China issued the Declaration by United Nations, formalizing their alliance against the Axis Powers with the exception that the Soviet Union maintained its neutrality agreement with Japan. 
The Axis Powers, however, were able to continue their offensives.  Japan had almost fully conquered Southeast Asia with minimal losses by the end of April, 1942.  They took large numbers of prisoners in the Philippines, Malaya, Dutch East Indies and Singapore, as well as sinking significant Allied warships not only at Pearl Harbor, but also in the Java and South China seas.  The only real successes against Japan were a repulsion of their renewed attack on Changsha in late December and a psychological strike from a bombing raid on Japan's capital Tokyo in April.
Germany was able to regain the initiative as well.  Exploiting American inexperience with submarine warfare, they sunk significant resources near the American Atlantic coast.  In the desert, they launched an offensive in January, pushing the British back to positions at the Gazala Line by early February. In the Soviet Union, the Soviet's winter counter-offensive had tapered off by March.  In both the desert and the Soviet Union, there followed a temporary lull in combat which Germany used to prepare for their spring offensives.
Comments
Thoughts? Oberiko 16:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would refer to the "bombing raid on Honshū" as the "bombing raid on Japan's capital, Tokyo, and other Japanese cities."  The psychological boost from bombing Japan's CAPITAL was spectacular on the American side.  69.230.175.70 21:37, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed, thanks. I've left out the other cities, as Tokyo, being hit by close to 2/3 of the raids, was clearly the primary target and the one that caused the most impact.  Oberiko 23:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Changsha was a good addition.  I'd rather not include the GEACS though, it's better explained in the article on the expansion itself. Oberiko 12:05, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks Dna-Dennis.  I think you're right in that Barbarossa needs a bit more attention to highlight its importance.  I'm going to leave out the surprise bit, as while Stalin was seemingly surprised, there are historians who argue that he was anticipating it and was actually in preparation for on offensive of his own against Germany; overall, a situation a bit to complex and requiring to much explanation (and counter-explanation) for this article.  I'm also not sure about putting in the German casualties, as they suffered roughly 1/3 those of the Soviets; bear also in mind that the Soviet figure we have includes KIA and POW/MIA, while the Germans include KIA, POW/MIA and injured.  A pretty good ratio by any account. Oberiko 17:25, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Draft 1

message: On June 22nd, Germany, along with other European Axis members and Finland, invaded the Soviet Union.  Axis forces made significant gains into Soviet territory and inflicted large numbers of casualties until the offensive began to stall as winter approached.  In September, the siege of Leningrad began, and in October Sevastopol was sieged and a renewed offensive was made against Moscow, the Soviet capital.  After the halt of the German offensive, the Soviet's launched a winter counter-offensive using reserve troops brought up from the border near Japanese Manchuria.
Following the German attack on the Soviets, the United Kingdom began to regroup. In August, they jointly issued the Atlantic Charter with the United States and then, along with the Soviet Union, invaded Iran to secure the Persian Corridor and Iran's oilfields.  In December, they launched a counter-offensive in the desert, reclaiming all gains the Germans and Italians had made.
In Asia, Japan was preparing for war.  The Japanese plan was to create a large perimeter stretching into the western-central Pacific in order to facilitate a defensive war while exploiting the resources of Southeast Asia; as a further precaution, the Japanese also planned to neutralize the United States Pacific Fleet.  In preparation, Japan seized military control of southern Indochina in July, 1941; an action the United States, United Kingdom and other western governments responded to by freezing all Japanese assets.  On December 7th, the Japanese struck, launching near simultaneous offensives against Southeast Asia and the Central Pacific, including an attack on the American naval base of Pearl Harbor.  
These actions prompted the United States, United Kingdom, China, and other Western Allies to declare war on Japan.  Italy, Germany, and the other members of the Tripartite Pact responded by declaring war on the United States.  In January, the United States, United Kingdom, Soviet Union and China issued the Declaration by United Nations, formalizing their alliance against the Axis Powers with the exception that the Soviet Union maintained its neutrality agreement with Japan. 
The Axis Powers, however, were able to continue their offensives.  Japan had almost fully conquered Southeast Asia with minimal losses by the end of April, 1942, chasing the Allies out of Burma and taking large numbers of prisoners in the Philippines, Malaya, Dutch East Indies and Singapore.  They further bombed Australia's main naval base at Darwin and sunk significant Allied warships not only at Pearl Harbor, but also in the Java Sea, South China Sea and Indian Ocean. The only real successes against Japan were a repulsion of their renewed attack on Changsha in late December and a psychological strike from a bombing raid on Japan's capital Tokyo in April.
Germany was able to regain the initiative as well.  Exploiting American inexperience with submarine warfare, the German Navy sunk significant resources near the American Atlantic coast.  In the desert, they launched an offensive in January, pushing the British back to positions at the Gazala Line by early February. In the Soviet Union, the Soviet's winter counter-offensive had tapered off by March.  In both the desert and the Soviet Union, there followed a temporary lull in combat which Germany used to prepare for their spring offensives.
Comments
Almost the same, but with the removal of Coral Sea and the German spring offensives.  I was thinking about putting more emphasis on Barbarossa, but it's actually about the same number of combatants as the Battle of France, which I didn't emphasis in terms of scale. Oberiko 20:42, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the bombing of Darwin. Oberiko 02:06, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the St. Nazaire Raid.  I'm not sure if it's noteworthy enough though.Oberiko 14:00, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the Indian Ocean Raid and removed St. Nazaire, the latter only really affected the German surface fleet, which was mostly out of use by this point anyway. Oberiko 17:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Draft 2

message: I'd like to report a factual error in section 1.2.2 (Germany’s war against the Western Allies), subsection "Mediterranean, Africa, and the Middle East".
The next to last paragraph reads "From October until mid-1944, the Allies fought through a series of defensive lines and fortifications designed to slow down their progress. On April 25, a little over a year and half after its creation, the Italian Social Republic was overthrown by Italian partisans; Mussolini, his mistress and several of his ministers were captured by the partisans while attempting to flee and executed. Shortly after [emphasis added], one of strongest of the German defensive lines, the Winter Line, was breached nearly simultaneously in May at Monte Cassino by British-led forces and at Anzio by the Americans..." but the dates here are all mixed up.
The Italian Social Republic was indeed overthrown "a little over a year and half after its creation", but in April 1945, Mussolini being killed on the 28th of that month. Thus certainly not before the Battle of Monte Cassino, which was fought from February to May 1944.
You just need to check the Battle of Monte Cassino and Italian Social Republic articles here on Wikipedia to confirm the dates. 
I would change it myself but the page is locked and I'm a newbie.
Cheers,
Piotre 13:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that's an error.  The RSI was overthrown in April and the Winter Line was breached in May.  We're using the end-date of the battle instead of the start date in February. Oberiko 13:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Oberiko, the point is the RSI was overthrown in April 1945, and the Winter Line breached in May 1944. See what I mean now? Piotre 15:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I've reviewed the main articles on the RSI and the Winter Line. There was definitely a chronological error in there; I've edited that section to correct it, and added the year 1945 to the date of the RSI overthrow to make it clear. - Eron Talk 15:37, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, my mistake, only looked at the month (both when writing that section and here on review).  My apologies Piotre. Oberiko 17:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No apology needed, really. And thanks Eron for fixing it. Piotre 18:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Factual error in section 1.2.2 

message: I'd like to change our accepted new framework to as follows:
* Background (X - 6 July 1937)
* War breaks out (7 July 1937 - 6 Oct 1939)
* Axis advance (6 October 1940 - 21 June 1941)
* The war becomes global (22 June 1941 - May 2 1942) 
* The balance shifts (3 May 1942 - 14 May 1943)
** Pushed back to include the Battle of the Coral Sea and the German Spring offensives, which flow quite naturally to the Battle of Midway and the German Summer offensives respectively
** Ends with the conclusion of the Tunisia Campaign and Second Soviet Winter offensive, but before the renewed German Summer offensive
* Allies gain momentum (15 May 1943 - 5 June 1944)
** Now contains the entirety of Operation Cartwheel
** Keeps the Italian Campaign much more intact, from the invasion of Sicily up to the capture of Rome.  Includes the downfall of Mussolini, his rescue, and the establishment of the RSI
* Allies close in (6 June 1944 - 15 December 1944)
* Axis collapse, Allied victory (16 December 1944 - 15 August 1945)
** Pushed back to include the Battle of the Bulge (which was part of the reason for the Vistula-Order Offensive) and Battle of Luzon
From my chart, it presents a cleaner break system as well, with fewer events crossing over.  I'm also thinking that there's a chance I may merge the last two sections together, depending on how the write up goes.  Any thoughts? Oberiko 18:27, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good to me. I think the last two sections should remain distinct; the opening of the second front on D-Day may have been the beginning of the end, but I'm not sure that total collapse and defeat in Europe was inevitable until the failure of the Ardennes counter-offensive. - Eron Talk 20:53, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice analysis, Oberiko.  You will have Allies Gain Momentum covering a period with Germany's failed Operation Citadel near its beginning and Axis Collapse covering a period with Germany's failed Operation Watch on the Rhine (aka Battle of the Bulge) at its beginning.  While both battles were probably tactical draws, they were draws Germany could ill afford and thus both were strategic defeats for Germany.  An excellent way to start each period from an analytical point of view.  So,  I agree with Eron and your initial intention:  Keep the Allies Close In and Axis Collapse separate.  For the Background, I think you can begin with the end of WW I.  In summary form, many countries harbored simmering disappointments with the territorial status quo which had existed from the mid-1920s through the late 1930s.  Japan certainly wasn't happy with merely its island holdings; the USSR was upset that its territory was not at least coextensive with Tsarist Russia's territory; Hungary thought it was entitled to part of Czechoslovakia; and Germany, of course, was dismayed that it had lost even a relatively small amount of territory as a result of its WW I adventures.  As an aside, I disagree with Eron's use of the common term "Second Front" to describe the sub-theater opened on D-Day.  The term "Second Front" was a propaganda term used by the USSR, and while we can acknowledge its prior use, there is no reason for us to buy into it now.  As described in my comments above, D-Day opened up what was at least the REAL FIFTH FRONT of the European Theater.69.238.217.25 23:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Er, whatever. It's a handy shorthand to describe a fairly common concept. - Eron Talk 00:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Framework change

message: ===Draft 5.1===
In early May, Japan initiated operations to capture Port Moresby, the last major Allied stronghold in south-east Asia, via amphibious assault; the Allies, however, intercepted and turned back Japanese naval forces, preventing the invasion.  Japan's next plan, motivated by the earlier bombing on Tokyo, was to seize the Midway Atoll as this would seal a gap in their perimeter defenses, provide a forward base for further operations, and lure American carriers into battle to be eliminated; as a diversion, Japan would also send forces to occupy the Aleutian Islands.  In early June, Japan put their operations into action but the American's, having broken Japanese naval codes in late May, were fully aware of the Japanese plans and force dispositions and used this knowledge to achieve a decisive victory over the Imperial Japanese Navy.  With their capacity for amphibious assault greatly diminished as a result of the Midway battle, Japan chose to focus on an overland campaign on the Territory of Papua in another attempt to capture Port Moresby.  For the Americans, they planned their next move against Japanese positions in the southern Solomon Islands, primarily against the island of Guadalcanal, as a first step towards capturing Rabaul, the primary Japanese base in southeast Asia.  Both plans started in mid-summer, but by mid-September the battle for Guadalcanal took priority for the Japanese, and troops in New Guinea were ordered to withdraw until its conclusion.  Guadalcanal soon became the focal point for both sides with heavy commitments of troops and ships in a battle of attrition.  By the start of 1943, the Japanese were defeated on the island and withdrew their troops.
In Burma, Commonwealth forces mounted two operations.  The first, an offensive into the Arakan region in late 1942 went disastrously, forcing a retreat back to India by the spring of 1943.  The second was the insertion of irregular forces behind Japanese front-lines in February which, by the end of April, had achieved dubious results.
In the west, concerns that the Japanese might occupy bases in Vichy-held Madagascar caused the British to invade the island in early May, 1942.  At the end of May, the Axis defeated Allied positions in Libya and pushed the Allies back into Egypt until they were stopped at El Alamein.  In mid-August, with public discontent over defeats in the desert and the need to satiate Stalin's demands for a second front in Europe, British and Canadian forces staged an unsuccessful amphibious assault on the German held port of Dieppe.  In August, Axis forces attempted a second attack against Allied forces at El Alamein, but again were turned back.  In late October, the Allies commenced an attack of their own, dislodging the Axis forces and beginning a drive east across Libya.  In November, Anglo-American forces invaded French North Africa, which quickly aligned itself to the Allies; Hitler responded to this by ordering the occupation of Vichy France, though the Vichy Admiralty managed to scuttle their fleet to prevent its capture by German forces.  Axis forces in Africa withdrew into Tunisia, where they were pincered by offensives from both the east and west.  By May, the Western Allies had conquered Tunisia and taken a great number of Axis prisoners.
On the German's eastern front, they launched their main summer offensive against southern Russia in June, 1942, after defeating Soviet offensives in the Kerch Peninsula and at Kharkov in the previous month.  By mid-November the Germans had nearly taken Stalingrad in bitter street fighting when the Soviet's launched their counter-attack, encircling a large number of German troops.  The Germans attempted to relieve these forces in December, but the Soviet's repelled the operation and in January, 1943, launched their general counter-offensive in the south and in the north.  By early February, the German Army had taken tremendous losses; their troops at Stalingrad had been forced to surrender and the front-line had been pushed back roughly to its position prior to their offensives.  In mid-February, after the Soviet push had tapered off, the German's launched another attack on Kharkov, creating a salient in their front-line around the Russian city of Kursk.
Comments
As always, thoughts and trimmings welcome. 01:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent, Oberiko.  I would change "however, intercepted and turned back Japanese naval forces, preventing the invasion," to "however, intercepted the Japanese naval forces in the Battle of the Coral Sea.  While some might claim that that battle was a tactical victory for Japan with Japan appearing to have suffered less loss of materiel than the Americans, history shows that at the very least the Battle of the Coral Sea was a strategic victory for the Allies.  Among other things, Japan's intended naval invasion of Port Morseby was turned away and Japan's loss of materiel affected its assembly of forces for its next plan."  Note that I propose actually using the name of the sea battle.69.238.167.136 22:01, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree; I think the section is fine as it is. The goal of this reorganization is to provide an overview of the war, and not get bogged down into too much detail. That's for the sub-articles to do (and in this case, it's really for the sub-sub-sub-articles to get down into the mud). Parsecboy 22:14, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

text: That's a good point. Revert it if you like. Parsecboy 14:52, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  I also added British operations in Burma. Oberiko 15:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Section 5: The balance shifts (3 May 1942 - 14 May 1943)

message: In early May, Japan initiated operations to capture Port Moresby, the last major Allied stronghold in south-east Asia, via amphibious assault; the Allies, however, intercepted and turned back Japanese naval forces, preventing the invasion.  Japan's next plan, motivated by the earlier bombing on Tokyo, was to seize the Midway Atoll as this would seal a gap in their perimeter defenses, provide a forward base for further operations, and lure American carriers into battle to be eliminated; as a diversion, Japan would also send forces to occupy the Aleutian Islands.  In early June, Japan put their operations into action but the American's, having broken Japanese naval codes in late May, were fully aware of the Japanese plans and force dispositions and used this knowledge to achieve a decisive victory over the Imperial Japanese Navy.  With their capacity for amphibious assault greatly diminished as a result of the Midway battle, Japan chose to focus on an overland campaign on the Territory of Papua in another attempt to capture Port Moresby.  For the Americans, they planned their next move against Japanese positions in the southern Solomon Islands, primarily against the island of Guadalcanal, as a first step towards capturing Rabaul, the primary Japanese base in southeast Asia.  Both plans started in mid-summer, but by mid-September the battle for Guadalcanal took priority for the Japanese, and troops in New Guinea were ordered to withdraw until its conclusion.  Guadalcanal soon became the focal point for both sides with heavy commitments of troops and ships in a battle of attrition.  By the start of 1943, the Japanese were defeated on the island and withdrew their troops.
In Burma, Commonwealth forces mounted two operations.  The first, an offensive into the Arakan region in late 1942 went disastrously, forcing a retreat back to India by the spring of 1943.  The second was the insertion of irregular forces behind Japanese front-lines in February which, by the end of April, had achieved dubious results.
In the west, concerns that the Japanese might occupy bases in Vichy-held Madagascar caused the British to invade the island in early May, 1942.  At the end of May, the Axis defeated Allied positions in Libya and pushed the Allies back into Egypt until they were stopped at El Alamein.  In mid-August, with public discontent over defeats in the desert and the need to satiate Stalin's demands for a second front in Europe, British and Canadian forces staged an unsuccessful amphibious assault on the German held port of Dieppe.  In August, Axis forces attempted a second attack against Allied forces at El Alamein, but again were turned back.  In late October, the Allies commenced an attack of their own, dislodging the Axis forces and beginning a drive east across Libya.  In November, Anglo-American forces invaded French North Africa, which quickly aligned itself to the Allies; Hitler responded to this by ordering the occupation of Vichy France, though the Vichy Admiralty managed to scuttle their fleet to prevent its capture by German forces.  Axis forces in Africa withdrew into Tunisia, where they were pincered by offensives from both the east and west.  By May, the Western Allies had conquered Tunisia and taken a great number of Axis prisoners.
On the German's eastern front, they launched their main summer offensive against southern Russia in June, 1942, after defeating Soviet offensives in the Kerch Peninsula and at Kharkov in the previous month.  By mid-November the Germans had nearly taken Stalingrad in bitter street fighting when the Soviet's launched their counter-attack, encircling a large number of German troops.  The Germans attempted to relieve these forces in December, but the Soviet's repelled the operation and in January, 1943, launched their general counter-offensive in the south and in the north.  By early February, the German Army had taken tremendous losses; their troops at Stalingrad had been forced to surrender and the front-line had been pushed back roughly to its position prior to their offensives.  In mid-February, after the Soviet push had tapered off, the German's launched another attack on Kharkov, creating a salient in their front-line around the Russian city of Kursk.
Comments
As always, thoughts and trimmings welcome. 01:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent, Oberiko.  I would change "however, intercepted and turned back Japanese naval forces, preventing the invasion," to "however, intercepted the Japanese naval forces in the Battle of the Coral Sea.  While some might claim that that battle was a tactical victory for Japan with Japan appearing to have suffered less loss of materiel than the Americans, history shows that at the very least the Battle of the Coral Sea was a strategic victory for the Allies.  Among other things, Japan's intended naval invasion of Port Morseby was turned away and Japan's loss of materiel affected its assembly of forces for its next plan."  Note that I propose actually using the name of the sea battle.69.238.167.136 22:01, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree; I think the section is fine as it is. The goal of this reorganization is to provide an overview of the war, and not get bogged down into too much detail. That's for the sub-articles to do (and in this case, it's really for the sub-sub-sub-articles to get down into the mud). Parsecboy 22:14, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

text: That's a good point. Revert it if you like. Parsecboy 14:52, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  I also added British operations in Burma. Oberiko 15:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Draft 5.1