Talk:Prem Rawat/Bio proposal/talk

message: The lede is generally good. It provides a succinct summary overview. I believe it should briefly touch upon his marriage and family split, and the criticism directed at him. A single sentence would suffice for each issue and bring the lede right up to standard, providing a brief but complete overview. 
The first 2/3 of Leaving India is very good. The final two paragraphs are somewhat problematic. The question of divinity should be left to a separate following paragraph. End the event paragraph noting that Abbie was a member of the Chicago group. The question of Godhood should be a complete paragraph of its own. Prem Rawat has on occasion given affirmative and negative answers about his Godhood/divinity. Quotes of both types should be included for balance. Even better would be no direct quotes but rather a statement that he has both affirmed[1] and denied[2] the claim. Quote mining can be dangerous territory and it may be simply best to report and reference. There are other ways the topic can be addressed better. These are simply my suggestions. Do what you think is best.
The remainder of the draft is very good until Teachings. The writing needs to be tightened up and made more consistent. The draft just seems to lose the flow of writing there. I have no particular advice in that regard, except to remove the age disclaimer sentance from the last paragraph, which seems out of place. 
All in all, it needs some tightening up in just a few places, but this is a very good draft. Vassyana 15:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Altered the lede, created a separate paragraph for "Godhead/Divinty and reduced teachings. I will smooth and tighten later if Rumiton or SylvieCyn don't beat me to it. Thanks again for your excellent advice.Momento 21:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since part of the GA requirement is that the article is stable, I would like to propose a temporary moratorium on editing this article once it replaces the existing article (and we can all take a Wiki break).Momento 21:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It seems the some people do not have a clear understanding of "divinity". I take it to be "of or from God", i.e. not "God".Momento 22:55, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Momento: The  refs need to be placed alongside the text, and not just at the end of a paragraph. That way readers can check what sources are saying what. Having 9 refs at the end of the paragraph does not work. See WP:CITE ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Apologies. I have altered/reduced some paragraphs in accordance with Vassanya's advice but I have left all references intact in case we want to reinstate the material. One para has 11 refs attached. Will do a tidy up once Vassanya and others have commented.Momento 01:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Revision review 24-04-07

message: Jossi, I didn't revert because I needed to keep your improvements. PatW, if you want to replace the current version, come up with something better, don't waste your creativity on the talk page. Momento 04:22, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PatW, Vassanya's sentence (and now yours) suggests that Rawat has expressed contradicting opinion about his "Godhood" (godhood implies the God version of childhood, that is the act of being God). He has not. We have never found a quote of Rawat saying "I'm God" and many saying "I'm not God". Rawat has been consistant, I'm not God, I'm a human being, I am a Guru, my Knowledge is divine. Show me one aspect of god/godhood/divine/divinity that Rawat has given both affirmative and negative answers about. Momento 20:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Rumiton, I put the bit about needing a Guru into "teachings" because scholars have mentioned it and it's well sourced. The sources I removed were superfluous to the paragraph and just added unnecessary numbers to the text. The source I included (Downton) was added to support the claim people  moved back in the Ashram (Reinserted). What other "cite needed" for that paragraph. Downton uses both "millennial" and "millenarian", "millenarian" seems to have more connect with prophecy. Momento 20:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Do you really believe that editors here are arguing that there is no aspects of divinity involved? The article is very clear in presenting what secondary sources say about the subject in very unambiguous terms. There is no need to keep pushing a certain point of view (from either side), when there is so much material on the subject. See Downton, Melton, der Lans, Kranemorg, Hunt, Barret, Goring, Lippy and all others. They all refer to aspects of divinity. We can terminate this endless discussion here and now, by just simply agreeing to avoid OR, and stick to what scholars have said about the subject. As per Wikipedia policy, we report what secondary, notable sources say about a subject and in the presence of such abundance of sources, we do not need to even contemplate for a second to do our own analysis. We can keep such analysis for our blogs, Myspace or any other fora. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:41, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The last paragraph

message: I have requested Momento leave the edit for Vassyana's attention and discussion, but he will not do so. Here is the simple line I have inserted and which Momento has reverted several times, ignoring my polite requests for him not to:
Prem Rawat has made both affirming and denying claims about his Godhood.PatW 00:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Be careful PatW. I reverted your edit after 24 hours because it was incomplete and you wouldn't fix it. You replaced it with another unsourced version and it was Rumiton and not me who reverted that edit. I don't accept your latest version Jossi. Someone has to show me a scholars quote that says that Rawat has given both affirmative and negative answers about anything.Momento 00:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The OR contained in the phrase - "Prem Rawat has made both affirming and denying claims" will never be acceptable without a verifiable source. I've put in another version of the first sentence that does have a verifiable source. This is probably more in the area of illustrating the supposed contradiction Vassanya was eluding to. (I'm finding a more detailed one).Momento 00:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is OR without sources. I have replaced it with this sourced paraphrase - While he denied being the Messiah in interviews, pre-existing millennial beliefs were fostered partly by his mother, whose talks were full of references to her son's divine nature, and partly by Rawat himself, when he let others cast him in the role of the Lord. Rawat was said to "generally encourage whatever view is held by the people he is with". The first phrase now more accurately relates to the "millennial beliefs".Momento 02:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Rumiton, I added the bit in bold - "Like the Sants, Rawat's main claim is that God lives in the heart of every human being, and can be experienced through the techniques of Knowledge with the help of a Guru or master". Using this reference by  Stephen J. Hunt Alternative Religions: A Sociological Introduction (2003), pp.116-7, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd.  -The process of reaching the true self within can only be achieved by the individual, but with the guidance and help of a teacher.--Momento 19:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Momento, did I delete that? I wonder about this software when complex things are being undertaken. Anyway, no problem here, please restore. Rumiton 11:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text:  PatW "Guru is greater (more important) than God because Guru reveals God". Rawat used to give this analogy. You're alone dying of thirst. Who saves you. The water which is necessary for every life on this planet or the person who shows you how to dig a hole and find it. It's the person, the water was there but you couldn't reach it. And PatW the sentence "Prem Rawat has made both affirming and denying claims about his Godhood (or divinity) is not neutral, it suggests contradiction. Rawat was consistant and stated clearly- I am not God, I am not the Christian Messiah, I am a Guru/Perfect Master (who are seen as divine), I am greater than God, we are all divine (to or from God). There are several contradictions here IF you want to interpret Rawat's comments through a Christian filter. If you accept the Indian basis for his teachings, there are no contradictions. No scholar suggests Rawat was "contradictory. To paraphrase the entire topic - Rawat's Hindu based theology caused confusion amongst some westerners who tried to interpret his ideas according to Christian theology." Momento 19:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Jossi, your new sentence suggesting Rawat denied a "divine nature in interviews and talks" is incorrect. He has one and so do we. A large part of Rawat's teachings are concerned with redicovering our "divine nature".Momento 06:42, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vassyana. Momento keeps reverting my edit as per your suggestion. Your advice would be welcome

message: The problem I see is that we are taking Vassanya's earlier comment that Rawat "affirmed and denied" literally. So we look for that contradiction in Rawat's words that aren't there. But there is a contradiction between Christian and Hindu versions of the Divine Teacher ( example - denies being Jesus-the Divine Teacher but affirms being Perfect Master - the Divine Teacher). Scholars understand the difference in Hindu and Christian theology but this point was lost on many of Rawat's followers. Downton's research and book is the most detailed on the period in question - arrival in the West to getting married. He doesn't suggest Rawat contradicted himself. But he does describe the "contradiction", the adoption of pre-existing "millennial beliefs" into DLM based upon Rawat's teachings and behaviour when Rawat has already said he is not the Messiah. The contradiction occurs when Rawat's early Hindu based teachings are interpreted through Christian theology. Hindu and Christians have different understandings of God, (including embodiments, manifestations and incarnations of God), Gurus or people who claim or can show you God, past Masters etc. The contradiuction is Rawat saying he was not Jesus  and many devotees claiming he was; not necessarily that Rawat was the historical Jesus but that Rawat was the new Jesus, the old Jesus returned. That contradiction of what Rawat said about himself and what his devotees said is noted by several scholars and media and should be addressed in the article. The article already contains an accurate and representative progression of Rawat's teachings and behaviour, it is just missing Downton's observation.
Chronologically it has Rawat declaring himself to be a Guru and Perfect Master ( defined as an embodiment of God on Earth, a fitting object of worship and veneration"). It has his family kissing his feet, it has Hoffman talking about Rawat being God and Rawat's denial, (the missing paragraph goes here), it has Rawat going more secular, it has his appearance in Indian dress and the shift from secular tendencies towards ritual and messianic beliefs. And it has his final abandonement of Indian methods and practices. The missing paragraph is all that's needed.  And that is Downton's observation that between coming to the west and 1974 -  "pre-existing millennial beliefs were fostered "partly by Rawat himself, when he let others cast him in the role of Lord". I'm going to go back to my original paraphrase from Downton.Momento 20:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That does not work. We need, if we want the article to remain stable and unchallenged, have the refs placed after the text they support. That is the way it is done in Wikipedia, to comply with WP:V. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:33, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe in cases where the references support the paragraph (rather than individual claims), it is appropriate to footnote only at the end of the paragraph. Otherwise, I would agree with Jossi that the individual claim supported should receive the footnote. If there are too many references to cleanly cite, it would be perfectly fine to choose a limited number of the sources for footnotes. The remaining references could be listed under a "further reading" section. This allows the footnotes to be reduced, while not excluding potential sources of information for readers and researchers. Vassyana 21:04, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Last paragraph

message: I notice that the Martin Luther page doesn't use a string of ref numbers the way we have been doing, just one. If no one dissaproves, I shall combine them in the same way tomorrow. Rumiton 13:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A few changes have been made to the current article that I think are good. For instance, noting that Rawat had worn the Krishna outfit in 75. Otherwise it may look like he did this whole new thing. Also the 707 sentence, I think the current article reads better.Momento 21:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All right, I'll make sure nothing gets left out. Can you give me specifics where you feel the Bio Prop needs improvement in scanning? Rumiton 08:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

text: "The first project was the customization of a Boeing 707 for his work. During 1981, Rawat flew the 707 to South America, Europe, India, Nepal, Australia, New Zealand and Malaysia. He visited forty different cities and spoke on 120 occasions". I took out the US bit because I think it's a given and the international trips are more significant. I think the teachings section could have more info but I'm happy to take a break from editing.Momento 19:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

text: There was a lot of discussion re reference numbers. The consensus was that because we have so many sources and there has been so much dispute that every word/sentence/para needed cites.Momento 19:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

text: OK, I'm happy about all that, though I still feel one reference number should be enough. So I'll make those changes and install the Bio Prop as the current article? We can work on the readability. I would like to start now on the issues that still really divide us, towards a stable article. Rumiton 02:53, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The issue is that often sentences contain several disprate facts, like the TPRF sentence and this article has a higher than normal need for verifiable sources. As for the issues the divide us, I agree that the teachings section could do with more of how Rawat describes his teachings. I would n't swap articles until everyone is happy with this one.Momento 09:51, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think ^ Stephen A. Kent From Slogans To Mantras. "I found his poorly delivered message to be banal." deserves to be in this article, He is talking about his experience from attending one night and hearing Rawat talk. It's not very scholarly.Momento 17:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Finishing touches

message: ===Existing text block in plain text, problematic text in italics, challenge in bold===
Prem Rawat, also known as Maharaji (formerly Guru Maharaj Ji) has been a speaker and teacher on the subject of "inner peace" since the age of eight, as well as offering instruction of four meditation techniques he calls Knowledge.[3][4] 
has been a speaker and teacher on the subject of "inner peace"  - How has he taught on the subject of “inner peace” ? – this requires evidence.
In 1971 Rawat traveled from India to speak in London and Los Angeles and was the subject of substantial media attention. [5] He returned to the West in 1972 with his mother and elder brother, and formed the Divine Light Mission to assist in spreading his message. Tens of thousands of followers were attracted, largely from the hippie culture, and dozens of Indian style ashrams were established. Rawat was criticised by Christian religious scholars on the basis of his youth, his behaviour and his teachings.[6][7][8]
He returned to the West in 1972 with his mother and elder brother, and formed the Divine Light Mission to assist in spreading his message. – How did Rawat form DLM ? he was not legally of age in either Britain or the US and citizenship requirements would anyway have meant that UK and US citizens respectively would have to have been signatories of any legal infrastructure to make the organisations work. Introducing the notion of a ‘message’ requires that the ‘message’ be defined.
Rawat's desire to manifest his own vision brought him into conflict with his mother and family, and his marriage to an American follower in 1974 caused a permanent split.[9][10] From this point Rawat and his teachings became more Western, and in the early 1980s he abandoned the title and trappings of a guru, closed the ashrams and changed his style to appeal to a Western audience. The Prem Rawat Foundation was established in 2001 to promote his message which is currently distributed in eighty-eight countries on video, print, and television, as well as to spearhead humanitarian efforts. [11][12]
In April 1974 Rawat, now aged sixteen, became an emancipated minor, and in May married 25 year old Marolyn Johnson, one of his American students. [29] The marriage to a non-Indian finally severed Rawat's relationship with his mother, who disowned him and returned to India with his two elder brothers. There she gained legal control of DLM India and appointed the eldest brother, Satpal, as leader. Rawat took control of the Western DLM and declared himself its sole source of spiritual authority. Most of the mahatmas in the West either returned to India or were fired.[30][31][32]
There she gained legal control of DLM India.  Divine Light Mission was registered as an Association – no individual could gain legal control.
After the split with his mother, Rawat and non-Indian DLM became more Western and secular.[33] Rawat encouraged students to leave the ashram and discard Indian terminology and customs.[34] Staff at DLM's Denver HQ were reduced from 250 to 80, and Rawat became financially independent through the contributions of his Western devotees which allowed him to follow the lifestyle of an American millionaire, support his wife and children, and finance the world travel of staff.[35][36]
After the split with his mother, Rawat and non-Indian DLM became more Western and secular – a wholly erroneous misstatement of what Downton actually says.
In 1980, Rawat's activities included the development of an executive jet refurbishing facility known as DECA. The first project was the customization of a Boeing 707 for his work. During 1981, Rawat flew the 707 to South America, Europe, India, Nepal, Australia, New Zealand and Malaysia. He visited forty different cities and spoke on 120 occasions. DECA was later sold to Aircraft Modular Products (AMP), which in turn was sold in 1998 to B/E Aerospace for US$118 million.[42][43]
In 1980, Rawat's activities included the development of an executive jet refurbishing facility known as DECA. How was Rawat active in the ‘development’ ? Why known as DECA ? Either it was a business in which case the business name applies or an explanation of why it was ‘known as’ is required. The whole construction of this paragraph is misleading it creates the impression that the DECA business was a planned development from 707 onwards – there is no evidence that this took place and if Michael Dettmers is not to be quoted then making up the notion that a business plan existed after the event certainly is not acceptable.
Rawat returned to India in October 1980 after an absence of five years, and on newly acquired land in Delhi spoke to over 38,000 people. He also revisited South America, going to Mexico for the first time. He held large, multi-day events for his students in Colombia (Cartagena), Miami, Rome, London, New Delhi and Kansas City, and also spoke at programs in Cancun, Lima, Sao Paulo and Leicester (UK).[44]
He held large, multi-day events for his students. Using the term students for dates prior to the mid 1990s is anachronistic. Further the construction “he held” is nonsensical – the holding of events was an organisational function Rawat certainly did not do the ‘holding’.
Prem Rawat speaking to the public at the Royal Albert Hall, London, October 12, 1981In the early 1980s, Rawat moved to disband the Divine Light Mission. Renouncing the trappings of Indian culture and religion, he regularly addressed audiences in places as culturally diverse as India, Japan, Taiwan, the Ivory Coast, Slovenia, Mauritius and Venezuela, as well as North America, Europe and the South Pacific.[45] 
In the early 1980s, Rawat moved to disband the Divine Light Mission. How could Rawat disband legally constituted organisations ?
 
In 1983 the downsized Divine Light Mission changed its name to Elan Vital, and Rawat closed the last western ashrams, marking the end of Rawat's use of Indian methods for western objectives.[46]
In 1983 the downsized Divine Light Mission changed its name to Elan Vital, and Rawat closed the last western ashrams.. How could Rawat close the ashrams ?  – he did not own them, or have any legal control of the status of the ashram residents. 
Rawat continued to tour internationally throughout the 1980s and 1990s, mostly piloting the executive jets leased for the purpose himself. He held events in over 40 countries, and in 1990 spoke at over 50 public events across the world. In December 1998, Rawat spoke via a live, interactive global satellite broadcast from Pasadena, California to 86,600 participants at 173 locations in 50 countries. 1999 saw the commencement of regular satellite broadcasts to North American cities, with similar initiatives started in other countries soon after.[49][50]
Rawat continued to tour internationally throughout the 1980s and 1990s, mostly piloting the executive jets leased for the purpose himself. This construction is semantically loaded – the notion of purpose can not be tied to the use of privates jets. The mode of travel is a separate issue from the fact of the travel as other modes were equally feasible. Also not all the jets were leased which requires explanation of how they were acquired - Jets Acquisition Committee etc
June 30, 2003. Prem Rawat speaking at the University of Salamanca's first "Conference on Peace".Between 1965 and July 2005 Rawat spoke at 2,280 events around the world. Between January 2004 and June 2005, he delivered 117 addresses in Asia, Europe, and North America. With a more culturally neutral approach, Rawat now concentrates on what he calls a "universal message of peace" and speaks of "self-fulfillment." His message is currently distributed in eighty-eight countries, on video and in print, and is broadcast on TV channels such as Canal Infinito in South America, Channel 31 in Australia, Kabel BW in Germany and Dish Network in the U.S.A.[51][52][53]
With a more culturally neutral approach, Rawat now concentrates on what he calls a "universal message of peace" and speaks of "self-fulfillment." Culturally neutral requires definition.
In 2001, The Prem Rawat Foundation was founded as a Public Charitable Organization, largely for the production and distribution of audiovisual and other materials promoting Rawat's message. It also funds international humanitarian efforts providing water, food and medical relief to war-torn and impoverished areas. In 2007, after an accountability evaluation by the Better Business Bureau, the Foundation became a recommended charity of the Wise Giving Alliance. Rotary International describes TPRF as being established "to improve the quality of life for the disadvantaged."[54][55] [56][57][58][59]
In 2007, after an accountability evaluation by the Better Business Bureau, the Foundation became a recommended charity of the Wise Giving Alliance. Rotary International describes TPRF as being established "to improve the quality of life for the disadvantaged." The BBS evaluation is hardly noteworthy – any organisation not meeting its criteria would be notably dubious. And Rotary has no established capacity to afford notable judgements outside of its own activities.
After the split with his family, Rawat declared himself the sole spiritual authority in the Mission,[73] removed many of the Hindu beliefs and Indian trappings, and focused his teachings more on the experience of Knowledge.[74][75]In the early 80s he closed the ashrams, relinquished the remaining Hindu traditions, dropped the title "Guru" and spoke to audiences as Maharaji, a teacher. His work continued to be supported by a new, minimal organization, Elan Vital.
His work continued to be supported by a new, minimal organization, Elan Vital. Wrong EV was just DLM renamed.
Practitioners describe Knowledge as internal and highly individual, without social structure, liturgy or articles of faith, and say that Rawat teaches no beliefs or ethical practices.[76][77] Rawat advises students that for maximum benefit the techniques should be practised daily for at least one hour.[78][79][80]. 
Practitioners describe Knowledge as internal and highly individual, without social structure, liturgy or articles of faith, and say that Rawat teaches no beliefs or ethical practices. What are the limits on quoting practitioners of the techniques ? Surely the view of those who no longer practice, or who practice without reference to Rawat is also of value ?
In 2005, a process of self-paced preparation for receiving Knowledge was introduced by Rawat. Known as The Keys, the package consists of five videos which prepare the student for learning and practising the techniques of Knowledge. Key Six is the "Knowledge Session," a multimedia presentation available in fifty languages. Though a small fee is requested to cover postage and packing, the techniques are taught without charge. [81]
Though a small fee is requested to cover postage and packing, the techniques are taught without charge. [81] Small is a relative term – a figure should be given or simply “a fee is requested” 
On thinking about it, I agree. I think changing this lies within my mandate for grammatical and other small changes. Done. Rumiton 11:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lack of Semantic Neutrality and Rhetorical Bias

message: Prem Rawat, also known as Maharaji (formerly Guru Maharaj Ji) has been a speaker and teacher on the subject of "inner peace" since the age of eight, as well as offering instruction of four meditation techniques he calls Knowledge.[3][4] 
has been a speaker and teacher on the subject of "inner peace"  - How has he taught on the subject of “inner peace” ? – this requires evidence.
In 1971 Rawat traveled from India to speak in London and Los Angeles and was the subject of substantial media attention. [5] He returned to the West in 1972 with his mother and elder brother, and formed the Divine Light Mission to assist in spreading his message. Tens of thousands of followers were attracted, largely from the hippie culture, and dozens of Indian style ashrams were established. Rawat was criticised by Christian religious scholars on the basis of his youth, his behaviour and his teachings.[6][7][8]
He returned to the West in 1972 with his mother and elder brother, and formed the Divine Light Mission to assist in spreading his message. – How did Rawat form DLM ? he was not legally of age in either Britain or the US and citizenship requirements would anyway have meant that UK and US citizens respectively would have to have been signatories of any legal infrastructure to make the organisations work. Introducing the notion of a ‘message’ requires that the ‘message’ be defined.
Rawat's desire to manifest his own vision brought him into conflict with his mother and family, and his marriage to an American follower in 1974 caused a permanent split.[9][10] From this point Rawat and his teachings became more Western, and in the early 1980s he abandoned the title and trappings of a guru, closed the ashrams and changed his style to appeal to a Western audience. The Prem Rawat Foundation was established in 2001 to promote his message which is currently distributed in eighty-eight countries on video, print, and television, as well as to spearhead humanitarian efforts. [11][12]
In April 1974 Rawat, now aged sixteen, became an emancipated minor, and in May married 25 year old Marolyn Johnson, one of his American students. [29] The marriage to a non-Indian finally severed Rawat's relationship with his mother, who disowned him and returned to India with his two elder brothers. There she gained legal control of DLM India and appointed the eldest brother, Satpal, as leader. Rawat took control of the Western DLM and declared himself its sole source of spiritual authority. Most of the mahatmas in the West either returned to India or were fired.[30][31][32]
There she gained legal control of DLM India.  Divine Light Mission was registered as an Association – no individual could gain legal control.
After the split with his mother, Rawat and non-Indian DLM became more Western and secular.[33] Rawat encouraged students to leave the ashram and discard Indian terminology and customs.[34] Staff at DLM's Denver HQ were reduced from 250 to 80, and Rawat became financially independent through the contributions of his Western devotees which allowed him to follow the lifestyle of an American millionaire, support his wife and children, and finance the world travel of staff.[35][36]
After the split with his mother, Rawat and non-Indian DLM became more Western and secular – a wholly erroneous misstatement of what Downton actually says.
In 1980, Rawat's activities included the development of an executive jet refurbishing facility known as DECA. The first project was the customization of a Boeing 707 for his work. During 1981, Rawat flew the 707 to South America, Europe, India, Nepal, Australia, New Zealand and Malaysia. He visited forty different cities and spoke on 120 occasions. DECA was later sold to Aircraft Modular Products (AMP), which in turn was sold in 1998 to B/E Aerospace for US$118 million.[42][43]
In 1980, Rawat's activities included the development of an executive jet refurbishing facility known as DECA. How was Rawat active in the ‘development’ ? Why known as DECA ? Either it was a business in which case the business name applies or an explanation of why it was ‘known as’ is required. The whole construction of this paragraph is misleading it creates the impression that the DECA business was a planned development from 707 onwards – there is no evidence that this took place and if Michael Dettmers is not to be quoted then making up the notion that a business plan existed after the event certainly is not acceptable.
Rawat returned to India in October 1980 after an absence of five years, and on newly acquired land in Delhi spoke to over 38,000 people. He also revisited South America, going to Mexico for the first time. He held large, multi-day events for his students in Colombia (Cartagena), Miami, Rome, London, New Delhi and Kansas City, and also spoke at programs in Cancun, Lima, Sao Paulo and Leicester (UK).[44]
He held large, multi-day events for his students. Using the term students for dates prior to the mid 1990s is anachronistic. Further the construction “he held” is nonsensical – the holding of events was an organisational function Rawat certainly did not do the ‘holding’.
Prem Rawat speaking to the public at the Royal Albert Hall, London, October 12, 1981In the early 1980s, Rawat moved to disband the Divine Light Mission. Renouncing the trappings of Indian culture and religion, he regularly addressed audiences in places as culturally diverse as India, Japan, Taiwan, the Ivory Coast, Slovenia, Mauritius and Venezuela, as well as North America, Europe and the South Pacific.[45] 
In the early 1980s, Rawat moved to disband the Divine Light Mission. How could Rawat disband legally constituted organisations ?
 
In 1983 the downsized Divine Light Mission changed its name to Elan Vital, and Rawat closed the last western ashrams, marking the end of Rawat's use of Indian methods for western objectives.[46]
In 1983 the downsized Divine Light Mission changed its name to Elan Vital, and Rawat closed the last western ashrams.. How could Rawat close the ashrams ?  – he did not own them, or have any legal control of the status of the ashram residents. 
Rawat continued to tour internationally throughout the 1980s and 1990s, mostly piloting the executive jets leased for the purpose himself. He held events in over 40 countries, and in 1990 spoke at over 50 public events across the world. In December 1998, Rawat spoke via a live, interactive global satellite broadcast from Pasadena, California to 86,600 participants at 173 locations in 50 countries. 1999 saw the commencement of regular satellite broadcasts to North American cities, with similar initiatives started in other countries soon after.[49][50]
Rawat continued to tour internationally throughout the 1980s and 1990s, mostly piloting the executive jets leased for the purpose himself. This construction is semantically loaded – the notion of purpose can not be tied to the use of privates jets. The mode of travel is a separate issue from the fact of the travel as other modes were equally feasible. Also not all the jets were leased which requires explanation of how they were acquired - Jets Acquisition Committee etc
June 30, 2003. Prem Rawat speaking at the University of Salamanca's first "Conference on Peace".Between 1965 and July 2005 Rawat spoke at 2,280 events around the world. Between January 2004 and June 2005, he delivered 117 addresses in Asia, Europe, and North America. With a more culturally neutral approach, Rawat now concentrates on what he calls a "universal message of peace" and speaks of "self-fulfillment." His message is currently distributed in eighty-eight countries, on video and in print, and is broadcast on TV channels such as Canal Infinito in South America, Channel 31 in Australia, Kabel BW in Germany and Dish Network in the U.S.A.[51][52][53]
With a more culturally neutral approach, Rawat now concentrates on what he calls a "universal message of peace" and speaks of "self-fulfillment." Culturally neutral requires definition.
In 2001, The Prem Rawat Foundation was founded as a Public Charitable Organization, largely for the production and distribution of audiovisual and other materials promoting Rawat's message. It also funds international humanitarian efforts providing water, food and medical relief to war-torn and impoverished areas. In 2007, after an accountability evaluation by the Better Business Bureau, the Foundation became a recommended charity of the Wise Giving Alliance. Rotary International describes TPRF as being established "to improve the quality of life for the disadvantaged."[54][55] [56][57][58][59]
In 2007, after an accountability evaluation by the Better Business Bureau, the Foundation became a recommended charity of the Wise Giving Alliance. Rotary International describes TPRF as being established "to improve the quality of life for the disadvantaged." The BBS evaluation is hardly noteworthy – any organisation not meeting its criteria would be notably dubious. And Rotary has no established capacity to afford notable judgements outside of its own activities.
After the split with his family, Rawat declared himself the sole spiritual authority in the Mission,[73] removed many of the Hindu beliefs and Indian trappings, and focused his teachings more on the experience of Knowledge.[74][75]In the early 80s he closed the ashrams, relinquished the remaining Hindu traditions, dropped the title "Guru" and spoke to audiences as Maharaji, a teacher. His work continued to be supported by a new, minimal organization, Elan Vital.
His work continued to be supported by a new, minimal organization, Elan Vital. Wrong EV was just DLM renamed.
Practitioners describe Knowledge as internal and highly individual, without social structure, liturgy or articles of faith, and say that Rawat teaches no beliefs or ethical practices.[76][77] Rawat advises students that for maximum benefit the techniques should be practised daily for at least one hour.[78][79][80]. 
Practitioners describe Knowledge as internal and highly individual, without social structure, liturgy or articles of faith, and say that Rawat teaches no beliefs or ethical practices. What are the limits on quoting practitioners of the techniques ? Surely the view of those who no longer practice, or who practice without reference to Rawat is also of value ?
In 2005, a process of self-paced preparation for receiving Knowledge was introduced by Rawat. Known as The Keys, the package consists of five videos which prepare the student for learning and practising the techniques of Knowledge. Key Six is the "Knowledge Session," a multimedia presentation available in fifty languages. Though a small fee is requested to cover postage and packing, the techniques are taught without charge. [81]
Though a small fee is requested to cover postage and packing, the techniques are taught without charge. [81] Small is a relative term – a figure should be given or simply “a fee is requested” 
On thinking about it, I agree. I think changing this lies within my mandate for grammatical and other small changes. Done. Rumiton 11:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Existing text block in plain text, problematic text in ''italics'', challenge in '''bold'''

message: Current text - as of 16.06.07 in plain - amendments in italics
Prem Rawat, also known as Maharaji (formerly Guru Maharaj Ji) has been a speaker and teacher on the subject of "inner peace" since the age of eight, as well as offering instruction of four meditation techniques he calls Knowledge.[3][4]
Prem Rawat, also known as Maharaji (formerly Guru Maharaj Ji) has spoken on the subject of "inner peace" since the age of eight and has offered instruction in the four meditation techniques he calls Knowledge.[3][4]
In 1971 Rawat traveled out of India to speak in London and Los Angeles, and was the subject of substantial media attention.[5] He returned to the West in 1972 with his mother and elder brother, and Divine Light Mission was established to assist in spreading his message. Tens of thousands of people responded, largely from the hippie culture, and dozens of Indian style ashrams were established. At the same time Rawat was criticised by Christian religious scholars on the basis of his youth, his behaviour and his teachings.[6][7][8]
In 1971 Rawat traveled to Britain and the US where he was the subject of substantial media attention.[5] Formed by Rawat’s US followers a separate US Divine Light Mission was registered with the IRS, in December 1971. Rawat returned to the US in 1972, accompanied by his mother and elder brother. Tens of thousands of people, largely drawn from the hippie culture, were initiated into the Rawat Knowledge and Indian style ashrams were established. Rawat was criticised by religious scholars on the basis of his youth, his behaviour and his teachings.[6][7][8] 
     
A separate DLM was created in the UK in 1972, subsequently other Nationally independent DLM organisations were created in Australia, South Africa, and Canada, as well as in several European and South American countries.
Rawat's desire to manifest his own vision brought him into conflict with his mother, and his marriage to an American follower in 1974 caused a permanent split.[9][10] From this point Rawat and his teachings became more Western, and in the early 1980s he abandoned the title and trappings of a guru, closed the ashrams and changed his style to appeal to a Western audience. Prem Rawat currently makes his message available by video, print and television in eighty-eight countries, assisted by the 2001 established Prem Rawat Foundation, which also spearheads international humanitarian efforts.[11][12]
Rawat's desire to manifest his own vision brought him into conflict with his mother and family, and his marriage to an American follower in 1974 caused a permanent split.[9][10] In the early 1980s Rawat personally renounced the trappings of Indian culture and religion and the Divine Light Mission was renamed Elan Vital, the title under which it continues to operate. The Prem Rawat Foundation was established in 2001 to promote Rawat’s message in video, print, and television, as well as to support humanitarian efforts.[11][12]
In April 1974 Rawat, now aged sixteen, became an emancipated minor, and in May married 25 year old Marolyn Johnson, one of his American students. [29] The marriage to a non-Indian finally severed Rawat's relationship with his mother, who disowned him and returned to India with his two elder brothers. There she gained legal control of DLM India and appointed the eldest brother, Satpal, as leader. Rawat took control of the Western DLM and declared himself its sole source of spiritual authority. Most of the mahatmas in the West either returned to India or were fired.[30][31][32]
In April 1974 Rawat then aged sixteen became an emancipated minor and in May married 25 year old Marolyn Johnson, one of his American followers. [29] The marriage and differences over behaviour and lifestyle caused the severence of Rawat's relationship with his mother, who disowned him and returned to India with his two elder brothers. The DLM in India came under the effective control of the elder brother, Sat Pal Maharaj. Rawat took control of the Western DLM and declared himself its sole source of spiritual authority.[30][31][32]
After the split with his mother, Rawat and non-Indian DLM became more Western and secular.[33] Rawat encouraged students to leave the ashram and discard Indian terminology and customs.[34] Staff at DLM's Denver HQ were reduced from 250 to 80, and Rawat became financially independent through the contributions of his Western devotees which allowed him to follow the lifestyle of an American millionaire, support his wife and children, and finance the world travel of staff.[35][36] 
From the end of 1973 DLM was moving in a more secular direction and Rawat is seen to have inspired greater autonomy amongst the DLM membership when in January 1976 he expressed the hope that residency in the western ashrams would be of a tempory nature. Previously Indian style terminology was westernised and staff numbers at DLM's Denver HQ were reduced from 250 to 80. Rawat became financially independent through the contributions of his Western devotees which allowed him to follow the lifestyle of an American millionaire and support his wife, his brother, Raja Ji, and his wife, Claudia. Continued donations to DLM financed the world travel of Rawat and his staff.[35][36]
 
In 1980, Rawat's activities included the development of an executive jet refurbishing facility known as DECA. The first project was the customization of a Boeing 707 for his work. During 1981, Rawat flew the 707 to South America, Europe, India, Nepal, Australia, New Zealand and Malaysia. DECA was later sold to Aircraft Modular Products (AMP), which in turn was sold in 1998 to B/E Aerospace for US$118 million.[42][43]
In 1979 the resources of DLM were committed to plans to refurbish a Boeing 707 that would be used to facilitate Rawat’s international mission. A plane was acquired and work took place in Florida at a facility subsequently acquired by Aircraft Modular Products (AMP), a company which was in turn sold to B/E Aerospace. Work on the 707 was completed in 1981 and with a co pilot, Rawat flew the plane to South America, Europe, India, Nepal, Australia, New Zealand and Malaysia. [42][43] 
Rawat returned to India in October 1980 after an absence of five years, and on newly acquired land in Delhi spoke to over 38,000 people. He also revisited South America, going to Mexico for the first time. He held large, multi-day events for his students in Colombia (Cartagena), Miami, Rome, London, New Delhi and Kansas City, and also spoke at programs in Cancun, Lima, Sao Paulo and Leicester (UK).[44]
Rawat returned to India in October 1980 after an absence of five years, and on newly acquired land in Delhi spoke to over 38,000 people. He also revisited South America, going to Mexico for the first time. Large, multi-day events where held in Colombia (Cartagena), Miami, Rome, London, New Delhi and Kansas City, Rawat also spoke at programs in Cancun, Lima, Sao Paulo and Leicester (UK).[44]
In the early 1980s, Rawat moved to disband the Divine Light Mission. Renouncing the trappings of Indian culture and religion, he regularly addressed audiences in places as culturally diverse as India, Japan, Taiwan, the Ivory Coast, Slovenia, Mauritius and Venezuela, as well as North America, Europe and the South Pacific.[45]
In 1983 the downsized Divine Light Mission changed its name to Elan Vital, and Rawat closed the last western ashrams, marking the end of Rawat's use of Indian methods for western objectives.[46]
In the early 1980s Rawat personally renounced the trappings of Indian culture and religion. Documents held by the IRS show that there were moves in the US to replace the religious status DLM with a public foundation (ref: 06.02.1985 Letter 1045(00) (6-22), however the US DLM in common with DLMs in other countries was simply renamed Elan Vital, the only exception being the UK Charity which closed in 1993 Rawat traveled widely and regularly addressed audiences in places as culturally diverse as India, Japan, Taiwan, the Ivory Coast, Slovenia, Mauritius and Venezuela, as well as North America, Europe and the South Pacific.[45][46]
Rawat continued to tour internationally throughout the 1980s and 1990s, mostly piloting the executive jets leased for the purpose himself. He held events in over 40 countries, and in 1990 spoke at over 50 public events across the world. In December 1998, Rawat spoke via a live, interactive global satellite broadcast from Pasadena, California to 86,600 participants at 173 locations in 50 countries. 1999 saw the commencement of regular satellite broadcasts to North American cities, with similar initiatives started in other countries soon after.[49][50]
Rawat continued to tour internationally throughout the 1980s and 1990s, events were held in over 40 countries, and in 1990 alone  Rawat spoke at over 50 public events across the world. In December 1998, Rawat spoke via a live, interactive global satellite broadcast from Pasadena, California to 86,600 participants at 173 locations in 50 countries. 1999 saw the commencement of regular satellite broadcasts to North American cities, with similar initiatives started in other countries soon after.[49][50]
Between 1965 and July 2005 Rawat spoke at 2,280 events around the world. Between January 2004 and June 2005, he delivered 117 addresses in Asia, Europe, and North America. His message is currently distributed in eighty-eight countries on video and in print, and is broadcast on TV channels such as Canal Infinito in South America, Channel 31 in Australia, Kabel BW in Germany and Dish Network in the U.S.A.[51][52][53]
In 2001, The Prem Rawat Foundation was founded as a Public Charitable Organization, largely for the production and distribution of materials promoting Rawat's message. It also funds international humanitarian efforts, providing water, food and medical relief to war-torn and impoverished areas. After passing an evaluation by the Better Business Bureau in 2007, the Foundation became a recommended charity of the Wise Giving Alliance. Rotary International describes TPRF as being established "to improve the quality of life for the disadvantaged."[54][55] [56][57][58][59]
In 2001, The Prem Rawat Foundation was founded as a Public Charitable Organization, largely for the production and distribution of materials promoting Rawat's message. It also funds international humanitarian efforts, providing water, food and medical relief to war-torn and impoverished areas.[54]
After the split with his family, Rawat declared himself the sole spiritual authority in the Mission,[73] removed many of the Hindu beliefs and Indian trappings, and focused his teachings more on the experience of Knowledge.[74][75]In the early 80s he closed the ashrams, relinquished the remaining Hindu traditions, dropped the title "Guru" and spoke to audiences as Maharaji, a teacher. His work continued to be supported by a new, minimal organization, Elan Vital.
After the split with his family in 1974, Rawat declared himself the sole spiritual authority in the Mission,[73] and changed the style of his message and relinquished the Hindu tradition, beliefs, and most of the eastern religious practices inherited from his father. In the 1980s the ashrams were closed and Rawat asked to be called Maharaji and not Guru.
Practitioners describe Knowledge as internal and highly individual, without social structure, liturgy or articles of faith, and say that Rawat teaches no beliefs or ethical practices.[75][76] Rawat advises students that for maximum benefit the techniques should be practised daily for at least one hour.[77][78][79]
What Rawat calls Knowledge is attained through initiation, now formalised as the sixth Key, which provides four techniques that allow the practitioner to go within. [75][76]  Rawat teaches no beliefs or ethical practices, he advises students that for maximum benefit the techniques should be practised daily for at least one hour.[77][78][79]
In 2005, Rawat introduced a process of self-paced preparation for receiving Knowledge known as The Keys. The package consists of five videos which prepare the student for learning and practising the techniques. The sixth video is the "Knowledge Session," a multimedia presentation available in fifty languages. A small fee is requested to cover postage and packing, but the techniques are taught without charge.[80]
In 2005, Rawat introduced a process of self-paced preparation for receiving Knowledge known as The Keys. The package consists of five videos which prepare the student for learning and practising the techniques. The sixth video is the "Knowledge Session," a multimedia presentation available in fifty languages. A fee is requested to cover postage and packing, but the techniques are taught without charge.[80]
A U.S. citizen since 1977,[81]Rawat lives with his wife in Malibu, California. They have four grown children. He holds an Airline Transport Pilot License and has type ratings for a number of fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters.[82] His résumé lists skills in computer graphics, computer-aided design and the development of aviation software. He is listed as co-inventor on a U.S. patent for a world-time aviational watch.[83] He reports that he supports himself and his family as a private investor, and that he has contributed to the success of several startup companies in various industries, including software.[84]
A U.S. citizen since 1977,[81]Rawat lives with his wife in Malibu, California. They have four grown children. He holds an Airline Transport Pilot License and has type ratings for a number of fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters.[82] His résumé lists skills in computer graphics, computer-aided design and the development of aviation software. He is listed as co-inventor on a U.S. patent for a world-time aviational watch.[83] He reports that he supports himself and his family as a private investor, and that he has contributed to the success of several startup companies in various industries, including software, although he does not identify these companies by name.[84]
--Nik Wright2 15:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. These are minor semantic changes that could be contemplated, with the exception of a few ones about which there are ni sources. I will let others look into these and decide if any of these proposed changes are useful. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:01, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I've already addressed NikW's first point at length and provided NikW with overwhelming scholastic material that Rawat teaches more than just the four techniques but to no avail (and removed his unacceptable BLP attack). But since I'm here, why would Rawat need to "identify these companies by name"? He doesn't identify his children or house by name, so perhaps they don't exist either.Momento 21:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

text: There is such a thing as privacy, and especially in a BLP it has to be respected. From what I have read lately of Jimbo Wales' opinion on this matter, it is soon going to become even clearer. Rumiton 02:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Amendments for Semantic Neutrality

message: Just had time to read your suggestions, which I think have merit, but also present some problems. I am sorry you were working from a previous version of the article. Numerous small changes have since been made working towards Good Article status. This was my fault for not updating the Bio Prop. I have now rectified this. 
1.  I think the sources are clear that Prem Rawat has been a "teacher" on the subject of inner peace, and not merely a "speaker."
2.  I agree that "at the same time" is wordy and redundant, as well as possibly confusing, as it could mean something like "...but then again."
3.  I have no problem with saying that the DLM was registered by his followers, provided that sources concur.   
4.  You speak of the various DLMs being "separate," "separate" and "nationally independent." I think just saying they were set up independently should be enough. 
5.  The term "the Rawat Knowledge" does not seem to occur elsewhere. Similarly your "what Rawat calls Knowledge." The definition of Knowledge has been given elsewhere in the text. Please look at the new paragraph re The Keys.   
6.  According to Chryssides and Melton, the DLM was "dissolved" and "disbanded," not "renamed." They clearly saw the differences in size and function as constituting a new organisation. 
7.  I like your sentence starting with "The Prem Rawat Foundation was established..." better than the current sentence. It is more succinct, and the kind of editing that will help us towards GA. 
8.  According to sources, Prem Rawat's mother was the one who gained legal control of DLM India, and she appointed her eldest son as its leader. I think this is an interesting fact that should be retained. 
9.  Similarly the sentence about the Indian mahatmas who came to the US and Europe. 
10.  Your sentence "...Rawat is seen to have inspired greater autonomy amongst the DLM membership when in January 1976 he expressed the hope that residency in the western ashrams would be of a tempory nature" I find rather clumsy and long-winded. I think what exists now, while saying much the same thing, is more succinct and carries more weight. 
11.  Your references to DECA have become moot, as we can find no reputable source that links Prem Rawat with DECA. The article currently does not mention it. As I said before, if you can find a reputable source that establishes a relationship between Prem Rawat and DECA, please supply it. 
12.  Your sentence that starts "Documents held by the IRS..." seems scarcely relevant. I am not sure what a "public foundation" in US law is, but it seems unworthy of mention. If you can show otherwise, please do. 
13.  As discussed before, I believe most people would be interested in the legal and commercial status of the TPRF, and I would retain the reference.  
14.  You write "...although he does not identify these companies by name." Neither he should. Privacy prevails, and correctly so. A Wiki article is not a tax investigation, nor any other kind of investigation. How would it be if a Wiki editor rang up a subject and said: "I am doing an article on you. Please provide me with all your financial details." 
Thanks for the suggestions. If there are no other objections, after 24 hours we can make the approved changes. Rumiton 11:57, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While you're at it, I think the lede is out of proportion. It has 5 sentences to describe June 71 until 1974 and only 2 from 74 to 2007. How about ""In June, 1971 Rawat left India to speak in London and Los Angeles, where he was the subject of substantial media attention. By 1973 Rawat had visited Japan, Australia, Europe and South Africa and tens of thousands of followers were attracted, largely from the hippie culture, and dozens of Indian style ashrams were established. His marriage to an American follower in 1974 caused a permanent split with his mother  and from this point Rawat and his teachings became more Western. In the early 1980s he stopped using the title "guru", closed the ashrams and abandoned the traditional Indian religious trappings in which the techniques originated". And then some more about the 80s to now.Momento 20:34, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I like that, but really, I feel the whole article is overwhelmed by material from the early 70s, not just the lead section. The problem with more about the 80s to now is that reputable scholars have not seen fit to investigate Prem Rawat's recent work. It seems that there needed to be an organisation to peak their interest. Unless you have some more recent sources? Rumiton 09:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Looking again, I see your suggestion omits the sentences about criticism. Probably not a good idea. The article already errs, it seems to me, on the promotional side. We need to be plainly NPOV, and the criticism was certainly there. Rumiton 14:16, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nik's Proposed Amendments

message: I’ve copied the updated version from Rawat Bioproposal nr2  to  for comparison and in case there is some chance of convergence. I would suggest that editors look carefully at this version and rather than dismiss it provide careful and detailed arguments about what if anything is wrong. It is not my intention to edit war and if editors here want to revert   that’s fine, though I will continue to work for my preferred version at Rawat Bioproposal nr2
--Nik Wright2 10:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nik, as far as I can see, all the points you raise in this proposal  have been dealt with by "careful and detailed argument" before. I suggest you read carefully through the Discussion archives. If you have any truly new sources, then by all means let's look at them. But editors who persist in presenting already rejected material risk being labelled "time-wasters," a form of misbehaviour looked on as seriously as any other by the Wikipedia admin. Rumiton 11:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Alternate Version for Comparison