Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 39

message: The following are operas for which I have libretti (either from a recording or a live performance) for which no synopses are on Wikipedia:
*Dvořák: The Cunning Peasant; The Devil and Kate, Dmitrij, The Jacobin;
*Janáček: The Excursions of Mr Brouček, Káťa Kabanová;
*Smetana: The Brandenburgers in Bohemia, Dalibor (opera), The Devil's Wall, Libuše (opera);
I'm willing to work on some of these during the month, but can't guarantee to do all ten. I also want to finish my work on Die Feen first. For those that don't have any articles at all I should also have basic information from the same sources. Who is planning to cover some of the same ground and wants to avoid duplicating reading effort? As I have recently acquired a recording of the Cunning Peasant, that is one I do want to put my name next to during the month as I plan to have a listen with the libretto in front of me some time.--Peter cohen 16:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Could probably do Broucek. --Folantin 19:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I could do The Devil and Kate, Jakobin and Kat'a.  Staying with Janacek, I can also flesh out the synopsis for From the House of the Dead and provide one for Šárka (and maybe for Fibich's version as well). --GuillaumeTell 21:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. I've created the stub for Cunning Peasant while listening to the end of it first time around. Sounds nice and jolly. (I'd finished work on Die Feen by then.) I think then a couple of Smetana ones will come next for me: Libuše (opera) and Dalibor (opera). I think three is enough to volunteer for, for now. We'll see who else volunteers, how people are getting on with what they're volunteered for etc. and regroup later.--Peter cohen 22:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Have now finished what I can write on Cunning Peasant from what I have available. Anyone with additional sources is welcome to round it out.--Peter cohen 20:19, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Operas without articles I can't really help with are Alfred, Armida, Vanda.and The Secret. So it eould be nice if someone could volunteer for some of these. And it may be worth another check for any overlooked as Cunning Peasant was not listed as lacking an article. And obviously other people may want to comment on operas with articles that need deepening or broadening. And with just two and a half pages of CD booklet for the background of Cunning Peasant, there is obviously room for someone to add more once I've finished extracting what I can.--Peter cohen 22:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've started Vanda - and also done some lists of roles for a number of the others. Incidentally I find Operissimo useful for these - though obviously it's best to check them against other sources when possible, and make them consistent with synopses. -- Kleinzach 00:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  September's composers of the month. 

message: One thing that came up recently was the question of Harvard referencing.
At the moment we don't have a format for references, sources and bibliographies. Do we need one and if so should we adopt Harvard? In favour would be its universality, against might be its formality.
There are a number of versions of Harvard around but essentially it puts the author's surname first followed by a date in parentheses, e.g.
* Smith, J (2005), Dutch Citing Practices, The Hague: Holland Research Foundation. 
Applied to online citations, the format would look like this:
* Bowcott, O (2005, 18 October), "Protests halt online auction to shoot stag", The Guardian. Accessed 7 Feb 06.
Opinions? Comments? -- Kleinzach 01:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally, I prefer the Wikipedia:Footnotes citation format, and it's much more common on Wikipedia than Harvard references.  If the project is going to adopt a standard, I'd go with that. Fireplace 15:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Judging by the article, Wikipedia:Footnotes seems to be more of a method than a format. Can you explain a bit more? -- Kleinzach 00:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Harvard references include a short citation within the text, such as (Adorno 1964) which is listed fully in a bibliography.  Footnote style uses ref tags (Alcibiades uses footnotes, e.g.).  See Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Inline_citations for more info.  Fireplace 01:22, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was referring to the format (see above). We don't want citations in the text, do we? It would look too academic. -- Kleinzach 01:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah I see.  Harvard referencing usually refers to short inline citations.  As far as formatting the references section, I usually use the cite book, cite journal, etc. templates, which auto-format the citations into a standard format.  Fireplace 02:15, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I am all for standardizing formats in our articles. I know most of the current reference formats are not consistent, therefore, I agree with Kleinzach.  Harvard referencing is something very common in today’s higher learning and I am sure it is not something difficult for people to adopt. - Jay 02:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: References: Harvard or not?

message: Here are some ideas for the December composer(s) of the month:
*Early German composers and the development of Singspiele: Johann Adam Hiller (1728-1804), Anton Schweitzer (1735 - 1787), Johann André (1741-1799), Christian Gottlob Neefe (1748-1798), Johann Friedrich Reichardt (1752-1814), Peter Winter (1754-1825) 
*Giovanni Paisiello (1741-1816)
*Joseph Haydn (1732-1809) (See List of operas by Joseph Haydn)
*Hans Pfitzner (1869-1949) and Paul Hindemith (1895-1963)
*Baldassarre Galuppi (1706-1785), Florian Leopold Gassmann (1729-1774), Giuseppe Gazzaniga (1743-1818)
Any other suggestions as always welcome! -- Kleinzach 04:50, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: December Composer(s) of the Month

message: I'm wondering about the notability (viability) of the new article on Smetana's Viola. Apparently the composer only wrote 300 or 400 bars. Only a fragment remaining. Please see the talk page. Any input will be appreciated. Thanks. -- Kleinzach 10:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to me to be as viable as the article on Die Hochzeit.  Actually, I think it's more viable:  the latter also doesn't have an article in Grove, nor has it one in the Viking Guide.  There is an article on Viola in the Viking, by John Tyrrell (who wrote the Grove article on Smetana).  Its libretto has survived, unlike Die Hochzeit's, and apparently there is a Supraphon recording of what there is of it. --GuillaumeTell 11:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Can you possibly note that on the the talk page? -- Kleinzach 11:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. --GuillaumeTell 21:51, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Smetana]]'s [[Viola (opera)|Viola]]: viable as an article?

message: In view of all the discussions about formatting - which deserve recording - I've started a project subpage here. The idea is to consolidate formats for easy access and further development. (Styles are space-consuming, so a subpage rather than inclusion on the project page, made sense to me.)
I have included existing material from the project page as well as Jay's table for roles, a format for recordings (borrowed from Voceditenore), and reference formats (as discussed above).
This is just a start. Please criticize/correct or whatever. -- Kleinzach 03:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How about "Selected recordings", for eg Aida#Selected_recordings - Jay 04:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes indeed, I've made some corrections. -- Kleinzach 04:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your work on this. Do we need a style for complete discographies? We have two examples: The Flying Dutchman discography and the Pelléas et Mélisande discography. What do you make of these? Are they anomalous? -- Kleinzach 09:07, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Uhm.. never knew they are existed. The format looks a bit ... not so appealing and yes, I believe we should standardize the format just like the "Selected recording - table style". I will change it later today, if it is OK with all of you. - Jay 09:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but let's keep all the information, all the singers' names. It's useful and there are lots of blue links. -- Kleinzach 10:36, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I think that References should probably be included in the first part of Opera (title) article sections, to encourage people to cite using ref tags from the start, to save much work later on. Having certain statements specifically backed up helps a lot to anyone coming along to improve the article later - otherwise, it will require a large rewrite if they can't find a source for large chunks of text (especially bad if it's a specifically translated quote, or from a book). I've especially found that when just a book is cited without being linked to any specific statement, I cannot prove or claim that anything from the text is in the book, so the book almost may as well not be in the references. Lethe 16:14, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made an edit. (The somewhat ancient text was taken from the project page.) I understand 'source' as meaning a general work that has supplied substantial information for the article and 'reference' for something that is more specific. Obviously as an article progresses references (and inline citations) become more and more important. -- Kleinzach 23:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/Article styles and formats|Article styles and formats]]