Talk:Chen Shui-bian

message: Something needs to be done about this passage:
"Another small party that backed Chen previously, Taiwan Solidarity Union, said Friday they would likely to support the upcoming recall measure. If the recall passed, it would be up to the voters to decide Chen's fate in an island-wide referendum.
Leaders of the Democratic Progressive Party met together on Friday to discuss the unfavorable charges."
Apart from the fact that this looks like it has been cut-and-pasted from elsewhere, which Friday is Friday? This doesn't belong in an encyclopedia!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.194.252.133 (talk) 13:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Scandals

message: Questionable characterization below:
: While his client Huang Hsin-chieh...and seven co-defendants...were all found guilty, Chen gained notoriety for his forceful and colorful arguments. He has stated that it was during this period that he realized the unfairness of the political system in Taiwan and became politically active as a member of the Tangwai movement.
I fail to see how "forceful and colorful arguments" from a lawyer constitute or lead to "notoriety".  And if they did, where did he "gain" this notoriety from, perhaps the judge sitting on the military court?  Or supporters?  In the interest of brevity and to avoid the need to further contextualize the claim, I am going to change this to "...Chen came to be known for..."  A-giau 00:37, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''notoriety'' for his forceful and "colorful" arguments? 

message: Why couldn't I find anything about Chen's reported affair with pretty aide Hsiao Bikim? --Vladko 16:31, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Affair with aide 

message: This article doesn't seem to address: 1) Chen's use of Taiwanese language/dialect in speeches; 2) his status in regard to ethnic divisions/tensions in Taiwan.  Badagnani 03:34, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Taiwanese dialect, how different is it from the dialect spoken on Fujian? i can understand what he is saying so is it even Taiwanese? has the 'Taiwan seperatist' hajacking our identity for their own agenda? or is it an unfortunate conquences of mass media misinfomation as the world became more verse with Taiwan then Fujian, see it uniquely Taiwanese? Akinkhoo 14:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess the media likes reporting on democratic countries. ;)  Jumping cheese Cont@ct 01:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Taiwanese dialect is different, read the article. I think they're similar in a way, because they sound the same, but they are a little different.--Jerrypp772000 02:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Taiwanese dialect has some Japanese elements in it (legacy of the Japanese rule), the Min-nan dialect does not. Also, given the fact that Taiwan and Fujian has been ruled separately with communication and connection virtually cut off for more than 50 years (or 100, if includes the time under Japanese rule), it is natural that the local dialects of the two developed in different directions. Kc0616 1:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

text: That doesn't make any sense at all. People in every place may speak a little different, does that make everybody speaking a different "dialect"? And the mandarin (Guoyu) spoken by Taiwanese and mainland Chinese and Hongkongnese sound different -- are they different "dialect" of mandarin?24.11.175.146 (talk) 16:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additions 

message: In this portion, the original author also failed to mention at end of Chen's first term as mayor of taipei, he has more than 80% approval rate that is never seen in the history of Taipei especially for the people-elected mayor. Ethnic concentration as well as more pro-pan-blue voters in city of Taipei had decided to choose a new mayor from pan-blue, the current Mayor Ma, instead of the one with high approval rate. When talking about this part of history, I suggest this part of fact should not be left out.
How good Mayor Ma is doing after replaced Mr. Chen as mayor of taipei? You can check out the link of Mayor Ma embedded in this article. And just a friendly reminder, don't be surprised to see many Mr. Ma's "scandal" in that link had been removed. Another sign to show you when reading this kind of controversial article at wikipedia used your best judgement and checkout more information before you jump into conclusion. There are peoples out there their main jobs are creating propaganda to promote or dis-credit a person. [[User:] 19:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the Mayor of Taipei 

message: Did he cede some powers to the Prime Minister following the recent protests?  I can't find anything about this in the article.  Badagnani 04:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ceding of powers? 

message: We need to get a Chen Shui-bian photograph. I think the Republic of China government provides a picture and it is fair use. Please get that old picture back up. -Nationalist 06:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need Chen Shui-bian Picture 

message: Please stop the edit warring on whether to refer to his birth place as "Taiwan" or as "Taiwan Province, Republic of China."  This really needs a community consensus, and the current edit war is not productive.  Please talk this through.  --Nlu (talk) 05:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Taiwan Province, Republic of China is the correct factual way. After all, there is no such country as Taiwan. The country is the Republic of China. I see no reason why Taiwan Province, Republic of China is not okay. -Nationalist 07:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's extremely political.  It's better to be vague regarding the political status than taking a stance.  Jumping cheese Cont@ct 10:01, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Republic of China(ROC) does have a Taiwan province,which covers most of ROC, but whats the point of that? Vinson  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.87.12.213 (talk) 03:05, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

text: You conveniently forget that the world community does not regard the Republic of China on Taiwan as a sovereign nation.  Hence, the most accurate terminology would be "Taiwan Province, Republic of China government-in-exile."   The ROC doesn't exercise sovereignty over Taiwan. 118.166.232.176 (talk) 09:48, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

text: "Taiwan Province" throws it off.  Jumping cheese Cont@ct 04:37, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

text: See Talk:Taiwan and Talk:Republic of China.  There's enough archives of discussions on the the proper name of "Taiwan" to keep you busy for days.  The consensus (not really, still some complaints) is basically Taiwan for the island and ROC for the government that administers Taiwan.  So...Taiwan is sometimes referred to as "Republic of China (Taiwan)" to appease both sides.  People usually know what Taiwan is, but not ROC.  Jumping cheese Cont@ct 05:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By having the paranthesis next (Taiwan), after Republic of China. It makes it as though ROC = Taiwan. This is not true. I like Nlu's plan. But I do not like Republic of China (Taiwan). -Nationalist 01:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's like ROC a.k.a. Taiwan.  People might not know what ROC is, but the name Taiwan is well recognized. Jumping cheese Cont@ct 05:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again you are equalling ROC to Taiwan. That is not true. AKA is also known as. which is equals. But it ROC does not equal Taiwan. Republic of China on Taiwan is a better way to put it. -Nationalist 06:03, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

text:  as much as i believe taiwan is not a state, i don't see why ROC(Taiwan)cannot be used. ROC = Taiwan is phyiscally true since it is the only area under ROC control. and it make it easier to indentify on the map. removing taiwan doesn't make sense as ROC is not a place; while using taiwan province kinda lead to confusion as to whether ROC control more than 1 province or something (which i find even more offensive and ugly for both sides) Akinkhoo 14:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ROC is known as Taiwan, and Chen is born in Taiwan no matter what. Some of you are saying Taiwan isn't a country, it is governed by the ROC, it's like saying South Korea isn't a country, but is governed by the ROK. Taiwan Province,  ROC would only make it really confusing. I think the best would be simply Taiwan, or ROC (Taiwan).--Jerrypp772000 20:43, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Again, ROC is commonly known as Taiwan. Let's give you another example, Ireland. The Republic of Ireland is known as Ireland, even though it doesn't govern the whole island. Saying Taiwan isn't a country is like saying China isn't a country, which is just ridiculous.--Jerrypp772000 21:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

text: This is like how China is typically called China, not the People's Republic of China. Jumping cheese Cont@ct 05:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am NOT trying to push a view that Taiwan is part of the People's Republic of China. No Definitely NOT. I am a staunch supporter of Taiwan and the Republic of China. I just want to reflect on the true facts. Even though the ROC is nowadays commonly known as Taiwan, it is still appropriate to make it known that Taiwan is part of the Republic of China and that the actual name of the country is ROC. Now, since ROC will be linked to the Wiki article, people will read it and understand that there is The Republic of China, based on Taiwan, and the Communist mainland People's Republic of China. If we just have Taiwan Taiwan and more Taiwan, it doesn't change anyone's mind. We need to clarify to Wiki readers about the two China's. -Nationalist 05:35, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah, that would be fine, and it also says in the article President of the Republic of China that it is also commonly called President of Taiwan outside of the ROC.--Jerrypp772000 19:52, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection 

message: The template Template:Infobox Mayor has been merged into Template:Infobox Officeholder.  This is the last page that needs to be updated.  Could you please update the infobox at the top of the page with the following code and then remove the outdated Infobox Mayor code from the top of this section.  VerruckteDan 18:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: , let me know if there are any other issues. ---J.S  (T/C/WRE) 02:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, it looks good.  VerruckteDan 10:32, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit Request 

message: Hi, i am quite new on this kind of stuff, but why there isn't a photo of Chen Sui bian on the template article? i think it would be nice to see at least how does his face looks like =) --HappyApple 09:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Copyright issues...had a pic, but it got deleted.  =(  Jumping cheese Cont@ct 11:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture of the president 

message: As discussed in the Talk:Lee_Teng-hui page, when saying in English that someone is the nth president, you are counting the number of people who have held the office, not the number of terms of office.  Saying, for example, that Chen is the 10th and 11th president makes no sense in English.  He can't be both because if he were, he would only be the 10th president.  The president who followed him would be the 11th president no matter how long or for how many terms Chen served.  
Apparently the convention in Taiwan for numbering presidents is to use the number of terms, but this is an English-language Wiki, so we must say things that make sense in English.  So we cannot say Chen was the 10th and 11th President.  We have to say that he served the 10th and 11th terms.  Readin (talk) 22:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Which makes less sense than the former proposal. Which is why the majority of officeholders don't have numbers anymore. Therequiembellishere (talk) 22:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What was the former proposal?Readin (talk) 23:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The one your arguing against, "nth". Therequiembellishere (talk) 23:11, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm ok with "nth" if it's followed by the word "term" if terms are what are being counted.Readin (talk) 23:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's exactly the problem, The 5th President makes a higher amount of sense than 5th term President. However, due to to confusions with people who hold the office more than once, disputed officeholders, multiple officeholders, innumerable officeholders, people who contest the officeholder and acting, provisional, caretaking, interim and regent officeholders (and mixes of these) the numbers have been removed because they clutter the infobox and cause confusion, especially when the number itself is confused because of the above examples. Chen fits the bill for more than one of these so it would be best to strike these from the box altogether. Therequiembellishere (talk)  —Preceding comment was added at 23:23, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Removing them altogether is ok with me too.  I don't see that saying someone is the nth president is anything more than trivia unless the person is very early in the list.  Knowing that George Washington was the 1st president is important.  Knowing that Lincoln was the 16th president is just trivia. Readin (talk) 01:36, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Alright, thank you. I'll send them here, I guess. Therequiembellishere (talk) 02:17, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  nth "term" president 

message: Taiwanese Prosecutors on May 20, 2008 named Chen suspect in a $ 450,000 fraud case, after he lost presidential immunity. Specifically, the investigation was for his role in the handling of a special presidential fund used to pursue Taiwan's foreign diplomacy. The Supreme Prosecutor's Office stated that: "We have formally started the investigation of the special expenses case concerning former president Chen.The office has assigned ... a seven-member investigative unit to take charge of the case." news.bbc.co.uk,  Taiwan ex-leader faces graft caseap.google.com, Taiwan investigating ex-President Chen Shui-bian --Florentino floro (talk) 11:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversy

message: The following was deleted: "The unprecedented scandal created a media firestorm in Taiwan and widespread disbelief among Chen's supporters. Strangely, in the four days following the initial news break, the biggest news out of Taiwan has yet to make its way to mainstream English media outlets such as CNN, BBC, Washington Post and Reuters. These news authorities choose to focus the coverage of this region on the impending arrival of a pair of pandas from China to a zoo in Taipei. US has been a strong ally to Chen's presidency. This virtual censorship by Western media could be an indication that Chen's corruption runs deep in today's international politics." by user: 61.229.246.213
There has been coverage by news outlets such as the New York Times, Los Angeles Times, and Bloomberg. Other foreign media also use AP and AFP stories. To say that the Western media (meaning all media from Europe to the United States) are embroiled in an international corruption and conspiracy in not covering Chen Shui-bian's scandal is absurd. Naturally, this story to some western countries deserve simply a story or two in coverage not the front-to-back coverage as in Taiwan. News to international outlets may also take days in sorting out facts by foreign media. The article is about Chen, not speculation on how late coverage or less-than-your-satisfaction of coverage in western media constitute wide-spread or international corruption or conspiracy. This was a bit over-the-top. Clygeric (talk) 14:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conspiracy Speculation 

message: "Prosecutors have asked a three-judge panel to formally detain the ex-president. They said "it is necessary to take Chen into custody while they continue their probe because the crimes Chen is suspected of committing are felonies". Following his detainment, the former president Chen Shui-Bian seems can no longer play his self-claimed pro-independence tricky game in misleading his southern supporters to the manipulated political stance."  This is clearly biased so I removed it until someone can put up NPOV information.  220.133.88.162 (talk) 02:18, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Arrest 

message: Cross purposes gone wild. The money laundering is alleged, the controversies are not. Either use "money laundering allegations" or "money laundering controversy", not both. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Alleged money laundering controversies" 

message: Can we include that his niece is married to Erik Ralske of the NY Philharmonic?
Choicefresh (talk) 00:50, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Niece 

message: Hi there... do u agree if I change the wording of the link? I mean, the box about chen says he practices "taiwanese folk religion", but the link goes to "chinese folk religion"...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.38.223.195 (talk) 22:41, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there even such a thing as "Taiwanese folk religion"? If not, then the label is clearly inappropriate and needs to be reverted. Albert584 (talk) 05:45, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  taiwanese folk religion - chinese folk religion... 

message: I u dont provide the source of the information, i will erase the un-sourced material...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gumuhua (talk • contribs) 18:33, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  When adding new information about the court case, give sources!!! 

message: Why NOT allow my picture at COMMONS and replaced without any notice in edit summary?! Give me a reason, or I will consider the replace as IRRESPECTIVE BEHAVIOR!!!!!!
This is not once, in other articles also had the same condition~! In addition to Chinese Wikipedia. Brock contact... 05:37, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image placement.... (Really angry) 

message: Shouldn't the whole post-Presidency investigations be a separate article?
Nada (talk) 07:23, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separate article 

message: Can anyone provide a translation for this source ? Readin (talk) 23:20, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: page does not exist. Blueshirts (talk) 16:07, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source translation 

message: The line "Some analysts also share similar view.." is copied almost verbatim from the BBC report, and phrased awkwardly.. shouldn't it be phrased differently?
Nada (talk) 21:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Taiwan ruling 

message: To be honest, is it completely necessary to include the Mandarin translation of all the Chinese names in this article? It's just wonderful that people want to add such useful tools, but there is a page specifically for Mandarin. Thoughts? GnarlyLikeWhoa (talk) 21:33, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Mandarin is a spoken language, so you mean the Chinese (i.e. written Chinese) translation. Yes, it is necessary. A Chinese name transliterated into English could correspond to so many Chinese characters, that it is most of the time impossible to guess which Chinese characters they are a transliteration of. Without the Chinese, it wouldn't be possible to get information from this article in English and write about it in Chinese without having to guess half of the names. Keep the Chinese. AugustinMa (talk) 04:59, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mandarin Text 

message: This article desperately needs clean-up. I'm not familiar enough with the situation to deal with it myself, but certainly passages such as this from the section about his recent criminal conviction read as biased whatever the facts of the case.
Supporters (very few) of former President Chen say the prosecution was politically motivated and point to unusual moves by the current government such as replacing judges who had granted Chen release on his own recognizance with judges who immediately ordered Chen jailed and isolated in mid-trial.[110][111] Some self-claimed analysts with no credibility share similar view as they suggest there is some truth to the claim made by Chen Shui-bian that this case is more of a witch hunt by the current administration aimed at pleasing Beijing. But the evidences speak otherwise.
Luke Parks (talk) 11:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody is happier than I to see former President Chen in jail for corruption.  Notwithstanding that it's not in keeping with Wikipedia policy to say "there are people who claim to be analysts but they are cranks".  Either their opinions are notable and should be included with more neutral language (minority opinion, fringe opinion, etc.) or their opinions are not notable and have no place in the article at all. The article needs some cleanup desperately.Simonm223 (talk) 11:51, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

text: Absolute agree.. the article doesn't seem balanced. Also, the line "Supporters of former President Chen say the prosecution was politically.." from the intro cites a source that doesn't back up the sentence.. it should be modified. Nada (talk) 16:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I put the sentence and the sources there.  I went back to them to provide a quote but they seem to have changed.  There does need to be some balance however between the assumption that a conviction means a fair process was followed to determine guilt and the numerous problems with the procedures including the inability of Chen to speak privately with his attornies early in the trial, the numerous leaks from the prosecution, the mid-trail switching of the all the judges to a different set of judges more freindly to the ruling KMT and more hostile to Chen, the unusual step of detaining Chen for months before he was charged with any crime while KMT figures already charged with similar crimes were allowed to remain free, etc. Readin (talk) 01:44, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Find reliable sources, keep comments neutral, don't misrepresent quotes to suggest they say things they don't.Simonm223 (talk) 03:15, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I took considerable care in adding the lines, I spent time finding sources to back them up, and I take great offense at your insulting suggestion that I misrepresented quotes.  News articles do sometimes get changed by editors after first appearing on a news website.  Please read what I wrote above, and choose your words more carefully in the future. Readin (talk) 04:49, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that the sources have changed, the sentence needs to change.  I'm short on time right now so I can't do it.  If no one else wants to do it I'll try to update it tomorrow.  Please do so in a balanced way.  There are two sides to the story.  This LA Times article might be a source. This might have some useful info too.  This YouTube has a quote from the current President Ma's university advisor. Readin (talk) 02:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: It's too long and clogging up this article.  Also, it's important enough to justify a separate article.  Much better to transfer it to another article, with a judicious summary here. 116.14.15.16 (talk) 13:28, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It was indeed clogging up this article. Someone already created a main article on the corruption charges a while ago, moving all of the "Post Presidency" section over. So I removed the section and kept the "main article" line.--Jerrch 16:26, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Chen Shuibian's trials and sentence needs a separate article

message: http://articles.cnn.com/2002-03-31/world/taiwan.nukes_1_nuclear-weapons-nuclear-posture-review-nuclear-threat?_s=PM:asiapcf
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2006/07/02/2003316835
Many DPP leaders have visited their ancestral hometowns in Fujian in the mainland
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/print/91760.htm
http://www.taiwandc.org/twcom/101-no4.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=1tQY4jn5iNwC&pg=PA333&lpg=PA333#v=onepage&q&f=false 
Rajmaan (talk) 20:51, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chen Shuibian expressed desire to visit his hometown in mainland china and directly referred to himself as chinese 

message: There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages. 
The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion. 
Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:58, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion|Request for Comments]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The second sentence of this article doesn't make sense grammatically. --2.245.219.175 (talk) 17:18, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Second sentence 

message: It's not clear why the "Hunger strikes" category was added. --Ronz (talk) 23:36, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Hunger strike?

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100826011928/http://www.libertytimes.com.tw/2010/new/aug/24/today-p11.htm to http://www.libertytimes.com.tw/2010/new/aug/24/today-p11.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There are serious NPOV problems in the section about the shooting.  Everything seems to be basically unsourced and the wording seems to suggest that the shooting was a conspiracy, and there's some clear editorializing in there.  I'm not sure it can be fixed.  Per WP:BLP I think the entire section should be scrapped and re-done. DrIdiot (talk) 21:58, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serious NPOV issues regarding the shooting 

message: I removed this content:
	
Chen's and the Democratic Progressive Party are pro-Japanese, and look favorably on Japan's colonization of Taiwan, the issue of WW2 comfort women, and terrotiral disoputes between Taiwan and Japan ie, Diaoyu Islands, 
Rationale: it's WP:OR and editorializing, China Daily is not RS especially on Taiwan (see WP:RSP), and the first link does not make any direct statements about Chen himself, only his advisor Shi Wen-long, whose relevance is a bit of a stretch. DrIdiot (talk) 05:41, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Japan" 

message: Lots of cn tags from a decade ago.  Going to clean up that section.  Some removed material will be posted here.  Here's the first:
Ancestral hometowns in Fujian in mainland China have been visited by DPP leaders and their families.
Reason: not a relevant sentence to Chen himself.  Also not really a political position?  And the sources are opinion pieces. DrIdiot (talk) 09:12, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Political positions section