Talk:Alger Hiss/Archive 1

message: *Ralph de Toledano and Victor Lasky, Seeds of Treason, (Los Angeles:Western Islands Rev. 1962), pp. 231-234.  
*Allen Weinstein, Perjury: The Hiss-Chambers Case (New York: Random House, 1997), p. 232.
 please note: I will be happy to accept some modification in your above posting that it was hasty, inconclusive, or in error, and you mistakenly cited my name in a way that may be misinterpreted, without which it may be regarded as a personal attack, etc.  And I would hate to stop assuming good faith in absence to evidence of the contrary, which this certainly is.  nobs 19:57, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Response to attack subhead

message: Ditto--Timoteo III 07:03, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: What do you think of new format

message: This statement, 
"Bard College in Annandale New York has established the Alger Hiss Chair of Social Studies, currently filled by Joel Kovel who teaches that the United States is the "enemy of humanity"
doesn't seem to have a lot to do with Alger Hiss, and such a provocative quotation needs some referencing so we can judge context, it seems to me -- that is, if it wouldn't be better to simply delete it.
Ruy Lopez:  They may have been accusations 50 years ago; archival research has born out the veracity of the material you reverted.  it will be reinserted for historical accuracy.  Nobs01 01:40, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Bard

message: I expanded this article a little, based on my own knowledge, but by no means do I claim to adopt all of its conclusions as my own. It's been a while since I first read about the case. When I learned about it in the 1980s, I believed categorically that Hiss was guilty and an elitist traitor along the lines of Kim Philby. Back then I was rather more conservative than now, so I approached it from the Chambers/Nixon angles in Witness and Six Crises. While I haven't completely switched sides, these days I'm dubious. Chambers, if not evil, was definitely not stable. The ongoing revelations about Nixon now exceed anything even Hunter S. Thompson might have dreamed up in the Seventies--as far as I'm concerned, nothing emanating from Nixon can enjoy credibility any longer. The evidence from the former USSR archives is at best inconclusive. I am not completely convinced of Hiss's innocence, and I think it's quite possible that he exercised considerably poor, even reckless judgment, but now I think it more likely than not he was railroaded. --bamjd3d
:I'm not sure Nixon or Chambers have anything to do with Hiss's guilt.  If Hiss is guitly he could have done it without their help.  it may be just another example of Eastern elitists in the media, academia and government caught in lie with thier pants down and steadfastly refuse to admit it (kinda like Pete Rose).  Watergate may have been nothing more than a vendetta stemming from this case by all those who had a vested interest in maintaining the lie and demonizing Nixon.Nobs01 05:52, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Hiss 

message: Your take on this is again biased and wrong, if not dishonest. Provide me with a quote and source where Volkogonov says he only spent two days on his search, and provide a cite for this spurious quote, "John Lowenthal pushed me to say things of which I was not fully convinced." I've spent a great deal of time reseaching this case and have never found this anyhwere.
The archives Volkogonov searched were: the Archive of the Government of the Russian Federation (Roskomarchiv);the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service (successor agency to the KGB); the Russian Ministry of Security; the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs; the Russian Center for the for the Preservation and Study of Documents of Modern History (which houses former Central Party and Comintern archives); the Russian Ministry of Defense and Soviet Army Archives (successor agency to the GRU). To claim he took two days to search this is absurd.
What the man did say was this: "Mr. Hiss has never and nowhere been recruited as an agent of the USSR. Not a single document, and a great amount of material has been studied, substantiates the allegation." In conversation with Lowenthal, he further stated that he could not give a 100% guarentee "that something wasn't destroyed . . . if [Hiss] was a spy I believe positively I would have found a reflection in various files." (New York Times, Oct. 29, 1992)
Then several weeks later later, Volkogonov said that he had "not been properly understood," that if such evidence did exist "there's no guarantee that it was not destroyed, that it was not in other channels." (New York Times, Dec. 7, 1992). But he did not retract his orginal statement, and has not since. In fact, in the 13 years since no such document has ever surfaced, neither it might be added has the name of Whittaker Chambers ever been found in the archives, which is not exactly support for your claims.
What evidence suggests Hiss started working for GRU in 1934? You're simply assuming 
Ales is Hiss and cramming Venona #1822 where it can't fit. GRU was military intelligence; Hiss was never accused of supplying military intelligence, only State Department material. To not note these problems is dishonest. If Weyl coroborates this, then I suggest you quote him to that fact, instead of merely asserting it.
"Some say he precipitated the Western betrayal of Eastern Europe," Excuse me, but you think this washes? Who may I ask are "some"? You couldn't get away with this in freshman english. And how in God's name could Hiss have "precipitated" anything at Yalta? He was junior to about everybody and had no authority on anything. Hiss did indeed oppose the extra UN seats for the USSR, but you better check the number, I believe they were pushing for less than 15. Hiss played no role in the ultimate outcome of this, and was sorely disappointed that the Soviets got the two they did. You make it seem like he played a role in the USSR gaining the two, which is wrong. Again, who are these "some" who keep saying things? What you should do there is point out that Hiss was always, throughout his State Department career, a conservative on international affairs, solely concerned for American interests. Such as, his strong support for Chiang Kai-shek. 
You quote Moynihan's assertion that Ales could only be Hiss, but not Lowethal's carefully reasoned argument to the contrary. Why?
Again, if Weyl testified that Hiss was what Chambers said he was, then quote him to the effect, then quote the rebuttal.
The pumpkin papers were not microfilm, they were 35mm.
--Griffin FarielloGrifross 02:19, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree wholeheartedly; "some" is what Wikipedians call a "weasal word".  Critics should always, always be cited by name. nobs 02:24, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Grif: I suggest you put Yalta Conference and Western betrayal on your to do list, I would be interested in hearing your comments. nobs 02:42, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soviet Archives 

message: HAHA yea rightyou guys waste ur time on this stuff, can u write a paper for me please?  Just kidding
Since the Lowenthal band-aid confuses events prior to 1938 with events in spring of 1945, perhaps some clarification is in order.  Between 1938 and 1945 much happened, namely, World War II (it was in all the newspapers).  In 1938 the 
*United States had the 16th largest standing military in the World, just behind Bulgaria, at number 15
*United States had 400 tanks
*the Soviet Union had been producing 22 tanks daily for several years
In 1945
*the United States had 3,000,000 men of fighting age in uniform, overseas
*90% the United States GDP was devoted to war effort
Now, the confusion seems to lie in Hiss suppling State Department documents to the USSR (which Chambers attested to) prior to 1938, and Venona decrypt #1822 of March 1945 which says ALES provides military information, and only rarely State Department information.  One must consider, being that 
:(a) Chambers didn't have contact with Hiss for the duration of WWII, and 
:(b) World War II occurred, i.e. 
::(i) the Soviet Union was invaded 
::(ii) the Soviet Union was a recipient of Lend lease 
::(iii) a multitude of other factors, 
:that GRU interest and priorities between 1938 and 1945 probably shifted.  nobs 03:42, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: More nonsense

message: For some reason, the footnotes at the end are showing up as a number followed by a box, as if the number is being followed by some character that my browser can't understand. Is it possible to fix this here, or is it a bug in the wiki software? Ben Standeven 03:31, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  footnote display problem 

message: What about French Premiere Edouard Daladier?  Should we add that he told American officials in 1939 that the Hiss brothers were Soviet agents?  nobs 04:28, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yah but Wikipedia is an international effort; surely we can input now from French sources.  nobs 06:29, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Au contraire mi ammie; we know the story from American sources.  I am proposing investigating French sources now. Presumably, counterintelligence files on Comintern operatives were well preserved thru the Vichy period.  nobs 17:49, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Really? Do you suppose Bullitt was source of Bullitts information?  nobs 21:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Clarification on hint: "American sources" may not refer to the Daladier information, it may refer to Venona, Chambers, etc.  nobs 02:43, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Even in a digression on a moot arguement you loose me.  I like the new format, but there are a few problems with it. Number one, of coarse, ignoring facts.  I don't know what more I can add.  nobs 04:55, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Daladier

message: Not to get sidetracked into moot arguements, but this phrase, "human turd in FDR's view", may reveal prejudicial research methods.  "Bullitt was not the source of the information".  Bullitt was doing his job, as required.  An attack on Bullitt hardly seems appropriate here, unless you are suggesting French Intelligence relayed the information to Bullitt, and Bullitt should have kept quiet about it.  And let's analyze that further: Daladier, a Head of Government, was Bullitt's source.  A Head of Government, at least in most objective observers estimation, is most probably a more authoritve source of information than some lowly head of a bureau, department, or employee in a bureau or department.  It may be tempting to pursue a moot line of reasoning like this, to analyze these arguements and objections this  anonymous poster puts forward, but I believe I've probably pursued it too far already.  Suffice it to say, these lenghty objections prima facie are full of this asserted POV reasoning, and are often not worth the 10 or 20 seconds of time to puruse them, searching for some valid objection.  nobs 20:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Even in a digression on a moot arguement you loose me.  I like the new format, but there are a few problems with it. Number one, of coarse, ignoring facts.  I don't know what more I can add.  nobs 04:55, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: digression on Bullitt

message: In response to this purported evidence  "Volkogonov's Letter to John Lowenthal"  posted at The Alger Hiss Story (and other associated allusions ), let me call to your attention the below text from the actual author of the letter, retrieved from a scholarly discussion board.  There is another text were this author further qualifies  "sister services", which I will be happy to furnish after this material his handled. 
:"In connection with passing of Prof. J. Lowenthal I recall a curious episode that had taken place a decade ago in autumn of 1992. Mr. Lowenthal had sent a letter to the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB), asking it to confirm that his client, Alger Hiss, had never been "an agent of the NKVD". New Russian authorities were overeager to demonstrate their openness and the FSB routed the letter to the SVR, where it landed on my desk.
:"After carefull study of every reference to Mr. A.Hiss in the SVR(KGB-NKVD) archives, and querring sister services, I prepared an answer to Mr. J.Lowenthal that in essence stated that Mr. A.Hiss had never had any relationship with the SVR or its predecessors. I am ready to eat my hat if someone proves the contrary. (I am pretty familiar with VENONA literature as well as with _The Haunted Wood_. Judging by the references, the authors unfortunately had no access to the essential files I worked with. I believe new archive custodians simply did not know where and how to look).
:"When I showed the draft of reply to my superiors, I was advised to give that information to General D. Volkogonov, who at that time was an advisor to President Yeltsyn. Virtually in a couple of days a report came from the United States that all major newspaper and TV networks reported my disclaimer, attributing it to Gen. D. Volkogonov and referring to him as a man in charge of the Russian intelligence archives. 
:"Recently I have obtained a copy of Gen. D. Volkogonov's letter to Mr. J. Lowenthal in which he describes how laboriously he "studied the archives of the Russian intelligence services" in search of materials pertaining to Mr. A. Hiss. One would have to be very naive indeed to assume that either SVR or the GRU would open their files to that defrocked komissar. The truth of the matter is that he was simply and elegantly used to add weight to what the Russians wanted to say on the subject at that time. 
:"I, of course, was amused to watch that development. And I think 88-year old Alger Hiss was also pleased to get that message from Russia. 
:Julius N. Kobyakov 
:Major-General SVR (Retired)
:(dated 10 October 2003)
:nobs 18:43, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, disregard that above. The letter's totally fake, I don't want to give the impression that it even MIGHT be true. You didn't even bother to give it the RIGHT fake signature, nobs. Am I so low that you can't even put some effort into this malarkey? I like how you remembered J Lowenthal was a professor this time though, good touch! You do care, sniff--168.122.236.22 00:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Da hmmm....; the National Review article is dated Nov 30, 1992....hmm the Kobyakov e-mail is dated 10 October 2003....hmmm, let's see....which comes first....1992 or 2003?  While my pained mind is searching this matter, one thing is apparent: we can theoretically conclude one event supercedes the other (hopefully).  nobs 23:04, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Volkogonov

message: "Following accusations in 1948 by Whittaker Chambers, a self-admitted former Communist (who admitted under oath that he had previously committed perjury when testifying under oath) that Hiss was a Communist and had spied on behalf of the Soviet Union, Hiss was convicted in 1950, after two trials, of perjury."
I love it!
:Yeah, I think it's ridiculous that people want to insert text like that into the introductory paragraph of an article, of all places. I've removed the irrelevant parenthetical comments about Chambers, and simplified the rest of the intro paragraph. Neilc 13:49, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Classic Wikipedia 

message: Upon review, the critics are correct, we have neglected some of Mr. Lowenthal's other arguements.  Let's examine another:
*Ales was said in the message to have been active for 11 years
*Hiss was accused in his trial only of spying in the mid 1930's
Continueing the analogy:
*An apple could count to eleven ('45 - '34 = 11);
*An orange could only count to four ('38 - '34 = 4)
with the conclusion:
*The apple can not be correct because the orange could only count to four.
:Further illuminated by the flawless, brilliant, cold logic: 4 ≠11.  nobs 18:28, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Jack: I can understand parsing a 50 year old moot arguement, but mixing Venona into it now is sort of a case of "the dog ate my fig leaf".  nobs 20:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I think your comment regarding fruitcakes says it all. --Jack Upland 01:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Analogy 2 

message: David Lowenthal made available through his in History News Network article the substance of a message that Vassiliyev copied in the archive of the former KGB during research for Haunted Wood. The message, sent to Moscow 5 March 1945 by the NKGB rezident in Washington became available during Vassiliyev's suit against John Lowenthal in a British court. A passage in the message, which does not appear in Haunted Wood, states explicitly, that ALES had been at Yalta.  nobs 17:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The suggestion that Ales was at Yalta is not new and a 2nd hand account of the existence of a confirmation is hardly exciting.--Jack Upland 01:04, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: HNN

message: I replaced the sentence "If Hiss were a Soviet agent, he wasn't a very good one" to Hiss's supporters cite this as evidence that he wasn't in fact a Soviet agent. The previous sentence was biased and more importantly didn't sound like it belonged in an encyclopedia.IndieJones 23:27, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Replaced sentence 

message: Here is a blantant example of using tone -- that is to say implied meaning -- to avoid the real meaning, and thereby insert a bias in this article.
Please, cite your 'fact' of attempted suicide.
Here is the actual fact (with substantially different context i.e. details that depict meaning accurately, completely, and lacking any purpose of persuasion:
 
http://www.heritage.org/Research/PoliticalPhilosophy/EM735.cfm
   Whittaker Chambers: Man of Courage and Faith
       by Lee Edwards, Ph.D.
Mr. Edwards may well be a qualified expert on this topic.
My expertise lies in disrobing lies, liars, and deception -- as in this case.
:Wow. Thanks for the lecture.  Very revealing.--Cberlet 16:23, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "attempted suicide"  ???  that is just wrong 

message: It's published. It is challenged.  What's the problem? Most of the Venona material is amplified through speculation and shamelessly hyped on this entry.  Shall we cut all that as well?--Cberlet 16:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dean memoir

message: I have moved the following bit over here:
"After ten years of asserting that Alger Hiss was neither a Communist nor a spy,"
I don't doubt that it is based on facts, but it is unclear in which context Chambers is supposed to have asserted that. That should be made clear. Str1977 (smile back) 10:11, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ten years

message: Someone deleted all the notes at some point.  I have restored them, but the notes and references could use a major overhaul.--Cberlet 15:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Notes section

message: Needs a longer listing of the extensive evidence against Hiss. For instance, during the months that Hiss claimed "Crosley" rented from him, records show there was no electricity in the apartment "Crosley" supposedly rented. Chamber knew things that could only come from a long association with Hiss, not a brief acquaintance. There's plenty of evidence that Weinstein produces that even his detractors do not dispute.Keith 09:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Very biased page - Hiss zealots clearly took over.