Talk:Saint Patrick's Saltire

message: Based on discussions in the Saltire and Saint Andrew's Cross articles, I request that Saint Patrick's Flag be merged into wherever those two articles eventually become merged into.  I propose a new article entitled Saltire Cross; encompassing the heraldic design and origin of the Saltire (also called the St. Andrew's Cross and St. Patrick's Cross), and the design's use on flags such as those of both Scotland and Ireland.  This would consolidate similar information, expand overall information on the same subject (the saltire), eliminate confusion, and make things more user-friendly.  Thanks!  --Dulcimerist 18:33, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Wikipedia flag of Amsterdam image page could also be referenced, as that flag contains three saltires.  --Dulcimerist 18:56, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I remove my request for merger, as this article's sister flag article, Flag of Scotland, has kept its own page.  The heraldry articles of Saint Andrew's Cross and Saint Patrick's Cross have been merged into Saltire by consensus.  --Dulcimerist 01:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request to Merge Article 

message: I've added this article to the Wikipedia Ireland Project; since its sister article, Flag of Scotland is in the Wikipedia Scotland Project.  These two articles should be treated in a similar fashion.  --Dulcimerist 01:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia Ireland Project 

message: If someone can correct the code for the Irish topics template, go for it.  Thanks!  --Dulcimerist 04:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have never seen such a template, so I removed it from the article.  --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 14:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good.  In the event that the Wiki Project on Ireland has a template such as this, I trust that they will insert the proper template code into the article.  --Dulcimerist 23:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish Topic Template 

message: Should this be included in the "Flags of the United Kingdom" series; or is that series designated only for current flags, not historic flags?  The Saint Patrick's Flag is used in the Wiki diagram of how the Union Jack was formed, so I feel that the Saint Patrick's Flag would be appropriate in the U.K. flags series.  --Dulcimerist 23:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean , don't you?  I don't think it is notable enough; its notability arises primarily from its use in the Union Flag, whose article covers it adequately.  However I do think it is British enough to be in List of British flags, which it isn't right now. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 03:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flags of the United Kingdom 

message: I see that there is a tag at the bottom of this article for National Flags. As St. Patrick's Saltire is not a national flag, nor used by any government to represent a nation on an official capacity, i propose that this tag be removed. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  12:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  National Flags Tag?? 

message: Is there evidence that the use of a saltire on the TCD seal is as a "flag of Ireland"? TCD is the sole college of the University of Dublin, not of Ireland. Similar motifs are used on the city seals of Cork and Enniskillen, but surely the Dublin press of 1873 would have been familiar with the TCD seal and, if that had originated from a flag of Ireland, would not have be so surprised and angry at its choice for the Order of St. Patrick badge. --sony-youthpléigh 01:14, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use on TCD seal 

message: The image :Image:Img psnibadge.gif is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
The following images also have this problem:
*:      File:KildareCrest.png
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --00:17, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Img psnibadge.gif

message: I've tagged some dubious assertions:
:The cross pattée was used on 15th century Irish coins and is today used as a symbol by the Church of Ireland.  It is also uniquely used by Irish Roman Catholics and Anglicans (Church of Ireland), being pressed onto their foreheads during Ash Wednesday services.
::*Is someone seriously contending that the smudge seldom recognisable as a cross of any sort is actually meant to be a cross pattée? 
:It is one of a few flags, probably second only to the Four Provinces Flag, that are considered relatively neutral in terms of the symbolism of Ireland
::*The Four Provinces Flag is a nationalist flag for sale in the Sinn Fein bookshop.  The IRFU has a different "four provinces" flag which is neutral but rugby-specific. 
::*Those who fly Saint Patrick's Flag may intend it as a neutral symbol, but then apologists of the Tricolour equally point to the symbolism of the colours for the same purpose.  The majority of southerners (i.e. non-Anglican nationalists) do not identify with the flag at all.
jnestorius(talk) 23:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious statements 

message: Red saltire on white field occurs in the arms of:
* 	Westport Urban District Council (granted 1975)
* Irish Association of the Sovereign Military Order of St. John of Malta (granted 1981)
jnestorius(talk) 21:42, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other possible uses 

message: Ballina was founded in 1723, so what sort of cross is on its modern arms is irrelevant.86.42.198.63 (talk) 12:44, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't follow you. The relevant section is "Other Saint Patrick's Crosses"; the relevant sentence is 'The arms of Ballina, County Mayo, adopted in 1970, include an image of "St Patrick's cross" carved on a rock in Leigue cemetery, said to date from Patrick's visit there in AD 441.' Are you saying the entire "Other Saint Patrick's Crosses" section is irrelevant, or have you a problem specifically with Ballina? jnestorius(talk) 14:20, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Ballina??

message: I'm Spaniard, and I must point out that in truth there's no sound evidence to claim that the flag of Florida derives fron the Cross of Burgundy. It's just a guess. It can make sense, but there's no evidence. Governor Fleming (c.1900), who proposed the design,  seems to have been of  Irish-Scottish stock and a former Confederate officer. Since 1792 the Spanish coastal flag was the 1785 naval ensign (see Flag of Spain)(and before 1785 the coastal military flag was white with the royal arms in the middle and no Burgundian saltire). Spanish population in late colonial Florida was minimal (and in c.1763-80 Florida was under British rule) -in fact, after 1783 most of the 'Spanish' were Loyalist English-speaking refugees from the Thirteen Colonies, and the Spanish governor used to be an English speaking Irish or Spanish-Irish-, and from 1700 onwards there were bellicose Scottish and Irish-Scottish settlers encroaching in Spanish Florida from Georgia and South Carolina. For an instance of Scottish influence, see the flag of Tallahassee.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 09:57, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Florida: Cross of Burgundy or Saint Patrick's Cross? 

message: HC Deb 25 July 1986 vol 102 c571W:
* Mr. John David Taylor  asked the Secretary of State for the Environment, pursuant to his reply of 22 July, Official Report, column 111, why the flag of St. Patrick for Ireland is flown on public buildings in Whitehall during state visits to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
* Mr. Tracey: I shall write to the hon. Member.
Does anybody have details of the reply? jnestorius(talk) 10:49, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whitehall during state visits 

message: "Saint Patrick's Cross is rejected by many Irish nationalists as a British invention.[1]" Is this a majority view in Ireland? Outside of Ireland it is always seen as an Irish flag, though not very well known. It seems that a vocal minority of Irish nationalists like to make it their business to make a fuss about such things. Looking at its history back to the 1600s, their minority view is recent and comes under Wikipedia:Fringe theories. And, as the above section proves, the more British of the Irish (like Mr Taylor) think of it as an Irish flag, not a "British invention".86.42.202.12 (talk) 05:02, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's indisputably NOT a historically-authentic symbol of St. Patrick, as many people have commented from 1783 down to the present day, and so is "fake" in that respect at least.  It may have been used from time to time as a symbol in Ireland before 1783, but it was British royalty and high aristocracy who unilaterally plucked it out of semi-obscurity to be suddenly elevated to be a symbol of Ireland, so it's not surprising if those with Nationalist inclinations have never fully warmed to it... AnonMoos (talk) 22:23, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: If not Irish, then what?

message: :File:Encyclopedie volume 6-145.png seems to show more-specifically Irish flags... AnonMoos (talk) 22:13, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Found the captions -- the Irish red saltire on white is included on both the p. 144 and p. 145 charts for some unknown reason (with no reference to St. Patrick, by the way, even though St. George is mentioned in connection with the English flag), but the Green ensign is only included on the p. 145 chart... AnonMoos (talk) 03:53, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Image [[:File:Encyclopedie volume 6-144.png]]

message: If someone has access to a copy of Armas : sracfhéachaint ar araltas na hÉireann (), that might provide a source for the proffered Irish translations of "Saint Patrick's Cross" and "Saint Patrick's Flag". jnestorius(talk) 15:36, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish language 

message: I know CAIN is a published source, but there are issues lifting whole sections from a website's take on one small detail when the purpose of the website is something entirely different. The quote seems to contradict other material evidenced within the article - who exactly were the authorities described by CAIN and where is the evidence for their statement? Gisbwoy (talk)  14:20, 30 November 2012 (UTC
:Removed Gisbwoy (talk) 17:00, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section taken from CAIN website 

message: Aka the author of this website:  which is referenced multiple times in the article and on this talk page. Without being personal in any way, is this person a flag expert or known authority on the matter? I cannot find any reference to these "contemporary opinions" anywhere else. I suspect he has detailed knowledge on the subject at the least, and it may be the case that these "contemporary opinions" are being taken out of context or may only relate to the Order of St. Patrick and not wider use. For instance, Vincent Morley has also contributed to the site crwflags.com where he wrote: "A flag book called Neptune François published at Amsterdam in 1693 showed a red saltire on white as the Irish flag. This was copied by several later publications. A Dutch book of 1700 (De Doorlughtige Weereld) says the following: 'Yrland heeft een witte Vlag, met een rood Andries Kruys' ('Ireland has a white flag, with a red Andrew's cross')." This information is ignored in the article - it suggests that if this individual is indeed an authority, he is being quoted out of context to support one opinion. Gisbwoy (talk) 17:00, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "Who is Vincent Morley?" is a reasonable question, as self-published sources are rarely considered reliable sources for citation purposes. --| Uncle Milty | talk | 19:34, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is Vincent Morley? 

message: Because ALL the Spanish infantry regiments in the 18th century, either Irish or not,  bore the cross the cross of Burgundy on their colours, at first on both the King's and the Battalion flags -the former known as "coronela" (colonel's) , and the latter as "batallona" or "sencilla" (battalion's)-, and eventually just on the battalion colour. To begin with, in the 18th century there were from 5 to 3 Irish regiments in Spanish service, in order of seniority: Irlanda (Ireland), Hibernia and Ultonia (Ulster) Regiments  (and the less known Limerick and Watefort Regiments). And prior to the first Irish regiment (the Ireland Regiment, late 17th century), there had been Irish (and English) soldiers in the Army of Flanders, and Irish privateers based in Spain.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 10:54, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Reference to the Hibernia Regiment and the Cross of Burgundy is a Bit Nonsensical 

message: Because the distinguishing mark of the Irish Regiments in French service was the English St George's Cross, and the Irish Dillon's and Walsh's regiments bore no red saltire on their battalion colours (whereas, for instance,  a non-Irish unit like the Basque Volontaires Cantabres -Cantabrian Volunteers- did).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:14, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Reference to the Berwick's Regiment is a Bit Nonsensical Too 

message: The 1625 quote "That this was an Englishe and not an Irishe action, and the colours contended for the fflagg of St George and not of St Patericke" does not imply that St Patrick's Flag was in 1625 a real thing. More generally "A is not B" does not imply "B exists". Language Log supplies multiple counterxamples:  jnestorius(talk) 09:29, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I've deleted this from the article. jnestorius(talk) 22:41, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fallacy 

message: This quote "The earliest use of an "X" shaped cross in an Irish Christian context was in the centre of the cross on St Conall's Bell, 'Bearnán Conaill' from Inishkeel, Co. Donegal, Ireland, now in the collection of the British Museum" doesn't appear to be supported by any of the sources. Bell Shrine of St. Cuileáin states that the enamelled and niello inlaid crest of the outer case is decorated in the Ringerike style, which reflects the influence of the Vikings on contemporary fashion which appears to imply that the decoration was artistic rather than in any "Irish Christian" context. And anyway ... what's it got to do with Saint Patrick's Saltire? -- HighKing++   18:16, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the text as it isn't supported by a reference (and I looked and can't find one), and isn't mentioned in that context in the Bell Shrine of St. Cuileáin article. -- HighKing++   19:39, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe it was mentioned as an example of earlier use of the X symbol in Ireland? Though that proves no relation between the two. Mabuska (talk) 22:15, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Easliest use of an "X" shaped cross in an Irish Christian context? 

message: I have edited to distance Wikipedia from the WP:FRINGE claim that Florida's saltire is Saint Patrick's.
* It contradicts the Flag of Florida article. 
* The sources are not very authoritative: an anonymous listicle and an obscure internet columnist. 
* These are bolstered by some WP:SYN and WP:OR. 
* The one or two editors responsible have no other edits. 
 or  you are welcome to respond if you have anything more convincing. jnestorius(talk) 12:48, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Florida 

message: Isn't it a mistake to grant the symbol of a cross to St Patrick, bearing in mind he died a natural death? This is supported by the the Wikipedia page on other crosses of St Patrick. Moreover I have seen it suggested that the present Union Jack was put together in a hurry without much thought, also that there was no Irish involvement in deciding to call the cross the "Cross of St Patrick". Really, I don't see how there can be any such thing as "the Cross of St Patrick", and that the anomaly should be mentioned prominently at the top of the article.
Jiver2 (talk) 12:40, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not the place for speculation and original research. If you can provide academic evidence backing up all those assertions, we could maybe find somewhere to put it in. I would also doubt the assertion of little thought going into the Union Flag and that it was done in a hurry considering the form without St. Patrick's saltire was created in the 17th century, adopted officially in the 18th century and had St. Patrick's saltire added in the early 19th century. Indeed much thought was given how not to upset the Scots any more considering another symbol was being super imposed on top of theirs. Why do you think St. Patrick is represented by portions of the cross rather than the whole thing? Mabuska (talk) 12:55, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

text: Thank you for your comment but I can't agree about the lack of thought. Until the Union Flag was updated, the main cross associated with St Patrick was a cross pattee and it is generally discussed even in the Wikipedia article that the "St Patrick Saltire" was in fact lifted from the arms of the Fitzgeralds. As for priorities on the flag design, these are very incorrect, with St George's Cross superimposed on everything else, and Wales not even represented, which you will notice on your travels results in the Union Flag not being displayed at Welsh functions. Thoughtless in the extreme I would say. Jiver2 (talk) 13:20, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: How could it be thoughtless when Wales didn't exist and was then de facto part of England since the act of union between those two entities? The Catholic cross pattee has been argued about in the past but it is consigned to the past with even Catholic bands on St. Paddy's day flying the current saltire instead. No-one is arguing or even suggested that St Patrick's cross is meant to refer to an unnatural death or anything. It is a heraldic symbol which isn't unique to cruxification incidents. So the whole point of this discussion is moot especially considering there is no evidence provided that it is an issue. Mabuska (talk) 14:18, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anomaly 

message: This monochrome photo shows Leeson Bridge in Dublin as the royal procession passes during the 1911 royal visit to Ireland. There are three decorative escutcheons at one end of the temporary viewing stand: I surmise that the dark-cross-on-white-field is St George's and the white-saltire-on-dark-field is St Andrew's, which leads me to wonder whether the dark-saltire-on-dark-field is intended to be St Patrick's. At this late date it is unlikely, but not impossible, that one could confirm the symoblism or identify the colours. My guess would be red-on-green or red-on-blue. jnestorius(talk) 00:14, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A curious 1911 saltire