Talk:Japanese numerals

message: What's this bit about 7 being pronounced "shi" and therefore avoided? The "superstition numbers" are 4 and 9, 9 being readable as "ku" and evoking suffering (苦). I'm curious where the "7" came from; I haven't heard that before. adamrice 15:22, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The pronounciation "shichi" is often avoided because it's hard to pronounce and can be mistaken for a "shi", 4. Students of the language might mistake this as "shichi" having a different, gloomy meaning, when they're told 4 is often read as "yon" because of 死...Mackan 16:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  pain and death 

message: Why delete the formal numbers 4-9? The argument that they aren't commonly used isn't a strong one: I do see them from time to time in documents that I translate. I don't consider the information so obscure that it does not merit inclusion. adamrice 14:11, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because they are not used.  I don't mean not commonly used, I mean not used at all in legal and financial documents. For instance, see an example of a legal form here: , which includes 五四八五壱壱分の八四五参 (8453/548511) and 七八・弐壱 (78.21). Many websites list what you call the formal numbers 4-9 just for your interest. Actually they are not formal anymore. You can add them, of course, if you put a note that they are obsolete. - TAKASUGI Shinji 17:49, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's very magnanimous of you. If I add them back (again), will you delete them (again)? adamrice 21:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I dit it myself. Please check it. - TAKASUGI Shinji 01:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just added archaic versions of several numbers in the 'basic numbering' table (1, 3, 10, 10,000) -- only to find them later in a separate section on formal numbers further down. I think this section is very informative and neatly arranged (with the modern/obsolete division and all), so why not delete all formal/archaic numers from the 'basic numbering' section? Pengzell 08:26, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I had not noticed that the formal numbers had been added to the "basic" table. I agree they don't belong there. Will edit. adamrice 13:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That looks much better!Pengzell 07:55, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formal numbers deletion 

message: I put "oku" and "chou" in the list of "basic numerals" because you come across them very often in newspaper and on TV, unlike for example "kyou" and the rest. Mackan 05:28, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oku and chou 

message: I am deleting this. I've never seen the character before, and can't find it in either of two character dictionaries. So it doesn't seem to belong in a section titled "basic numbering." adamrice 14:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is in the Japanese wiki article. Besides, the note clearly says it's archaic (which is why you wouldn't have seen it, in my opinion not enough for you to decide to delete it though), so why not keep it? I wouldn't mind putting it elsewhere though, but that tidbit of information doesn't really fit in anywhere else. Rather than creating a new section for one sign, why not let it be where I put it? Mackan 15:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "「四」は古くは「亖」という字が用いられていた。"Mackan 15:20, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Additionally, the kanji can also be found in WWWJDIC's "kanji lookup". I'll just put it back for now, hope you don't mind. Mackan 15:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Your are not deleteing this 49.150.59.61 (talk) 10:56, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  亖 

message: "秭*
*The actual character resembles a composite of the two characters 禾予, but is not available in Unicode. The alternative character 杼 (jo) may be used in its place."
If the actual 禾予 character is not available, then why not make an SVG? This is just confusing, it says 杼 may be used as a substitute, but at the top 秭 is used, which is not the substitute given below, but in Unicode, therefore a substitute. A different substitute, apparently? It's confusing like this. Shinobu 13:03, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a bit late, but for the record, the character in question is available in Unicode, it's U+25771 (𥝱), which is admittedly not widely supported due to being in Plane 2; I've added it to the article alongside 秭. There are apparently even more obscure synonyms like 𥞑, see . DopefishJustin 07:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

text: In fact, the Japanese Wikipedia has a whole article on this: ja:じょ DopefishJustin 07:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I'm confused... 

message: The entry for the number 0 lists (none) for the kun'yomi. "maru" is a common reading. In a strict sense, it can be argued that it is not the kun'yomi. However, it is a common reading for 0, and it is even less an on'yomi. I hear it almost daily. It is used when reading individual digits of a number one after another, instead of as a full number. A popular example is the famous 109 store in Shibuya which is read as "ichi-maru-kyū". This usage of "maru" for numerical 0 is similar to reading 0 in English as "oh". Are there any objections to adding it? Bendono 08:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you define kun-reading as the Japanese reading of a character than it is a kun-reading. The on-readings of the two kanji for circle I could find were "gan" and "en"; "maru" is the Japanese reading. So I would put it under kun-reading, I think. Of course, I don't really know much about this. I just used a dictionary. Shinobu 08:10, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The argument is to recognize the reading "maru" for the numeral "0". Etymologically, it derives from 丸 or 円 (both "maru"). However, as a number, it is only written as 0 or 零. 零 has an on'yomi of "rei". The kun'yomi is "shizuku" or "ochiru", but are never used to mean "zero". Again, this is essentially the same as recognizing "oh" as an English reading for numeral 0. I am hesitant to classify "maru" as the kun'yomi of 0 or 零. However, it may deserve a note with an explaination. Bendono 00:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

text: It's best then to add a specific note detailing the situation. Shinobu 01:15, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 0 as maru

message: It's interesting how frequently "san-byaku ni" is "corrected" by well-meaning wikipedians to "san-hyaku ni." Perhaps we should change this to a number that doesn't have irregular pronunciation. adamrice 15:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added a note that links to rendaku. I hope it helps understanding this irregularity.  --Kusunose 15:31, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  302 

message: Because this is the English portion of Wikipedia, shouldn't it lead to the English Wiktionary when you click on the kanji for the numerals, rather than the japanese page? Exactly how much good does that do? If someone's here, they're probably unable to read japanese. Shouldn't this be changed?
72.187.101.114 (talk) 04:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change in Redirection Needed? 

message: Do the same rules governing the on-reading of numbers between tens also apply to the kun-reading?
For example, are the following correct? If not, how should the numbers be modified for the kun-reading and would those same rules follow through to include numbers in the hundreds, thousands and so on? What if any (practical) limit is imposed for when to stop using the kun-reading? Would it be up to 100, 1000, or higher?
11	十一    	juu ichi       	11	too hitotsu
12	十二    	juu ni         	12	too futatsu
33	三十三   	san-juu san    	33	miso mittsu
47	四十七   	yon-juu nana   	47	yoso nanatsu
88	八十八   	hachi-juu hachi	88	yaso yattsu
Iniayashi (talk) 02:01, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kun Reading of Numbers 

message: I recently deciphered the notation in the attached image, which is a facsimile of two pages from the work Katsuyo Sampo of the great Japanese mathematician Seki Kowa, published in 1712.  The pages tabulate values of the binomial coefficients and the Bernoulli numbers.
I am posting it here because the pages contain several notations that are not discussed in this article:
* The main table uses the so-called rod numerals.  The article on rod numerals discusses Seki's use of the specifically, so there should really be some sort of crossreference from this page.  —Dominus (talk) 19:42, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Katsuyo Sampo pages 

message: A small glitch: in the table in the "Formal numbers" section, the character 拾 is contradictorily described as both "in use" and "obsolete".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.243.191 (talk) 04:06, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formal numbers 

message: Being technically oriented, I have been trying to figure out how numbers in exponential format are expressed in Japanese.  For example, consider Avogadro's number, 6.02x10^23; in English I would
say "six point zero two times ten to the twenty-third".  I cannot find any discussion of Japanese numbers that mentions this issue.  Anybody know for a fact how such science / engineering notation is expressed in Japanese?  I know they use standard metric prefixes for engineering quantities but I am thinking of the more general case.  MrG 71.208.31.32 (talk) 17:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exponential Values In Nihongo? 

message: When did this numeral system first appear?  One of the columns on List of numeral systems contains this information. -- Beland (talk) 21:55, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: I removed this section because: the correct parts repeat what has already been said above, while it incorrectly states that commas are used as separators every 4 digits, which the existing page already points out is not true. I wonder also why this would be described as the Japanese (or East Asian) "shisutemu"? Imaginatorium (talk) 15:42, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Use of separators" section 

message: I guess / suspect that the line:
Number	Character	Preferred reading	On reading	Kun reading
4     	四        	yon              	shi / し   	yon, yo(ttsu) / よん、よ・っつ
should be changed to:
Number	Character	Preferred reading	On reading         	Kun reading
4     	四        	yon              	yon, shi / よん、し    	yo(ttsu) / よ・っつ
Not being knowledgeable on Japanese, this suggestion needs checking by someone with proper knowledge rather than my guesswork.
86.10.123.84 (talk) 00:00, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the article is correct. 'yo' is part of the native number system: "hi fu mi yo itu mu nana ya". Note the vowel modifications for doubling: 1-hi=>fu-2, 3-mi=>mu-6, 4-yo=>ya-8. (Is there a (wrong) article somewhere which gave you this idea?) Imaginatorium (talk) 04:17, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question for a more knowledgeable person 

message: I came across a shrine torii with an engraved date of 「昭和廿七年」. Turns out 「廿」means 20, and apparently there are shorthands for 30 (卅) and 40 (卌) as well. (For example, see https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1249970512. ). I don't know enough about these to add to this page, but it seems clear that they should be here.  Jfriedl (talk) 05:38, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old(?) Shorthands for 20, 30, etc... 

message: I removed this part from the first section:
: Additionally, the tens from 13 to 19 in kun reading are formed by "(digit)-so", where the digit is also in kun reading: somi (13), soyo (14), soi (15), somu (16), sonana (17), soya (18), sokokono (19).
: *Additionally, the tens from 30 to 90 in kun reading are formed by "(digit)-so", where the digit is also in kun reading: miso (30), yoso (40), iso (50), muso (60), nanaso (70), yaso (80), kokonoso (90). Variations include i for 50 and the suffix -ji for 20 through 90. However, for the most part, these are not in use in modern Japanese.
The section Old Japanese looks much more reliable. For reference, here is a Q&A site (Chiebukuro: not "WP:reliable", but much more ENG:reliable than made up stuff: 大和言葉で、十以上の数字.) Imaginatorium (talk) 06:42, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable "old numerals" 

message: I have encountered, several instances of non-standard spellings of the japanese numbers. For the purpose of translation it is important for these to be available knowledge.I have searched hard and found no site about learning japanese numbers or even any articles which contain these spellings. However even though they are not standard they seem to be functionally used in day to day life in japanese writing. The following are the normal and alternate spellings for the numbers from 1 to 10 and consequently alternate spellings of larger numbers.: 1 ;ICHI いち (standard)　イチ (alternate), 2; NI ニ (standard) に (alternate), 3; SAN さん (standard)　サン (alternate), 4; YON よん (Standard)　ヨン(alternate), 5; GO ご(standard)　ゴ(alternate), 6; ROKU ろく (standard)　ロク(alternate), 7 NANA なな (standard)　ナナ (alternate), 8 HACHI はち (standard)　ハチ (alternate), 9 KYU きゅう (standard)　キュウ (alternate), 10 JUU じゅう (standard)　　ジュウ (alternate). requesting inclusion. Joshex (talk) 16:08, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but your comment makes no sense. You have simply produced both hiragana and katakana versions of the same readings. This does not belong in the article. Imaginatorium (talk) 19:07, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Socially Functional Spellings 

message: I'm not sure how commonly sho is used for 1 in counting maybe it's specifically first rather than one I'm not sure but I do know that in naruto at least it's Sho-Daime, Ni-Daime, San-Daime, Yon-Daime .... etc 
but I see no mention of sho in this page but I don't know enough about where to add it just that I'm fairly sure it belongs on the page somewhere (That's partly why I came to this page to try and figure out why they used Sho instead of Ichi but this page makes no mention of Sho  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.180.168.214 (talk) 02:44, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Sho (初) is rather like the English word "initial"; it refers clearly to the first something, but this does not make it a numeral, and IMO it does not belong in the article (which is not intended to be a Japanese language teaching resource). Imaginatorium (talk) 04:50, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sho vs ichi 

message: Quote: "zero / ゼロ (loanword, gairaigo)" as Preferred reading
This does not seem quite right. I don't see any basis for claiming "preferred", since all three forms are very common. Perhaps this column was just the only one available?
Then "loanword, gairaigo": I really do not believe gairaigo is an English word, even if it might appear in books otherwise printed in English. "Loanword" is not specific enough, because it includes the on-readings; unless you already know what gairaigo means, good luck working out the meaning here. Perhaps a footnote would be better, but I see that the first footnote has already been disconnected. Or perhaps zero should be treated separately... comments please. Imaginatorium (talk) 16:39, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zero