File talk:West.png

message: How come Latin America is included, but Africa isn't?  Why don't people remember Sierra Leone, Liberia and all the other parallel societies to Europe?  Why is this map Eurocentric anyways?  Are not Arabs and Africans Western?  Does not Hip Hop and Rap have its widest circulation throughout all typically Western nations?  Is not Islam a Western religion?  IP Address 01:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously, if every country in the world were to be included, the point of defining "the west" would be pointless. Latin America was settled from western countries and are therefore included. There are no western countries in Africa except perhaps for South Africa which was settled by europeans, i.e. westerns. The map is Eurocentric because "the west" is essentially Europe and the countries settled by people from that area. Arabs and Africans are NOT Western. Hip Hop and Rap certainly is widespread throughout the West. Although mainly a product of African-Americans it cannot in any event be considered anything else than a Western phenomenon. African-Americans don't retain any heritage from Africa, they are 100% westerns, although they've developed a subculture within the West (rap, hip hop etc). Islam is not a Western religion. Although it has spread to a large area of the West, it har not spread to a large amount of the Western population, and most of the muslims in the West are immigrants who retain their own culture, thus not being westerns.Jonmagne 20:46, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Latin America, but not Africa?

message: What is the meaning of the different colours used? -- Astrokey44|talk 16:20, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Me 3! What do the different colors stand for? Please provide a key, legend, or caption. Kim Bruning 13:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I put a caption there, feel free to edit if thats not what was intended --Astrokey44 04:38, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Looks cool! :-) Kim Bruning 14:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  colours? 

message: I have no idea why Hungary and Croatia and Slovenia are pictured in yellow while Poland, Slovakia and Baltics - in blue. Could somebody explain or change the image?--Nixer 10:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: croatia and hungary are shown in blue here, but im not sure why it is colored that way anyway. Perhaps EU membership? --Astrokey44 13:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, obviously not. May be, religion - catolicism/protestantism vs orthodoxy? Anyway I have no idea why Azerbaijan painted yellow while it is non-European Islamic country.--Nixer 07:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, I think there are a few irregularities with this map. Why, for example, is Greece included, but the rest of Southeastern Europe isn't? Why is Croatia included but Romania isn't? We can look at this as a Western Christian-Eastern Orthodox divide, but then Greece shouldn't be included, and in any case the Western world is not about religion. In Romania, for example, French values, including those of liberalism, were highly-influential in the 19th century, while in Greece these were less pronounced.  Ronline ✉ 09:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have never heared Greece to be called a part of Easrtern Europe (may be because it entered NATO and never had communist government). By the way I have never heared Russia (or Belarus etc) to be called "Western" in any sence. Can anybody cite any source where Russia called "western"? So why it is painted yellow? By what definition it is "western"?--Nixer 07:31, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I propose that Russia be coloured grey, along with Belarus and Ukraine. On the other hand, Romania and Bulgaria should be coloured blue (since they will be members of the EU from 2007), if countries like Croatia and Poland are also to be coloured blue. What difference is there, in terms of "Westerness", between Croatia and Romania, for example? Greece is not part of Eastern Europe, but then again Eastern Europe is mainly an economic-political term rather than a cultural term such as "Western culture" or "the Western world". Rather, I was using Greece as an example, since I was presuming countries like Croatia and Poland were included because they were "majoritarily Western Christian/Catholic". In this case, Greece should be excluded, since it's majority Eastern Orthodox. My point was that this map shouldn't be about religion, since Western world doesn't equal any particular religion. So, if Greece is included, then so too should Romania and Bulgaria be included (though Western influences are more pronounced in Romania then Bulgaria).  Ronline ✉ 08:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Romania will be politically and economically, a country of the Western World (starting January 1. 2007 with the EU accession), but if you look at the cultural level, differences are high. Renaissance and Englightment had only a limited influence on Romania. Greece can be considered as part of the West because the West was born some 2500 years ago in the Greek states and because it is a EU/NATO member. But today's Greek culture may not be considered a Western culture.--Arado 23:04, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, my point exactly. While I would consider Greece western, I don't see how contemporary Greece is any different from the other states of Southeastern Europe, aside from economics. As a high-income country, Greece can be seen as part of the West from an economic point of view. It is also part of all of the Western institutions (so is Romania from 2007). Culturally, it's contribution to Western culture has been significant in ancient times, but the current culture of Greece, which is what we should be looking at, has arguably been less influenced by the West than Romania, which at least had a substantial cultural influence from France during the 19th century, and which has generally been very Western-oriented (except the Communist period). If we look at ancient times, then Romania also qualifies because it was part of the Roman Empire, and its people have Latin heritage, which is undoubtedly western. In this context, I would argue that Romania is more Western than most of the former Eastern Bloc (with the exception, perhaps, of Hungary and Czechia).  Ronline ✉ 02:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm confused about why the Balkans are not considered Western especially noting the inclusion of Croatia and not Serbia.  Of course predominately they practice seperate religions but the lanuages are so closely linked that from my perspective it is difficult to divide the countries on the grand scale of "Western Culture."  I'd also like to argue against the assertations that former Communist bloc countries should not be included in Western society.  The establishment of Western Culture has taken over two millennia to mature and Communism's short 45 year seclusion of Eastern Europe should not be punishment to supress these countries' heritages.  I agree that these countries might be less than developed by current standards, but what other countries are projected to shake this stigma faster than the geographically European countries that are underdeveloped? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 125.133.34.118 (talk) 15:18, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eastern Europe 

message: I can see why Japan and South-Korea are painted blue as they are industrialized and may therefore somtimes be considered "western". But why the Phillipines? Is it because they are Catholic or because they were a European colony for such a long time?Ormur 18:14, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Asia

message: My concerns are almost the same as those users above who already mentioned them. 
*EUROPE: Western Europe does not include Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary, etc. Western Europe should only include all the way from Iberian peninsula until Germany, Swizerland, and Italy eastern boundary lines. Plus, even if the geography is disputed, they are definitely not "developed" economies. Emerging developing countries best fit their economic status. I think if the term "Western Europe" is dropped in favor of simply "Europe" then there should not be any problems. But then all countries considered European (cultural and/or geographical) should be considered as "The West". In other words, even the Balkans should be included. The current picture somewhat indirectly depicts that ONLY rich, developed countries "deserve" to be considered as "The West". Superiority/inferiority?
*ASIA: Philippines????? Micronesia and Pacific Islands countries???? Developed??!!! That set aside, Taiwan's and Hong Kong's and Macau's status as a country is also disputed. A special kind of color shade to represent its correct political standing should be used. As for developed Asian economies such as those of Korea, Japan, and Singapore, they are usually considered "western" in the economic fundamentals (as in "modernized") but not culturally, or geographically western. I don't think I have read a statement in the main article where "being rich" is a criteria (or automatic) membership of becoming part of "The West".
*AFRICA: May be the weakest of my concern, but is South Africa ever considered western??
--Heilme 15:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: True geologically, the eastern part of England, the Benelux, Switzerland, Autria, Italy, Greece, Germany, and Scandinavia would not be Western Europe as they are technically in the eastern hemisphere. Yet they are part of the western world. The western world is not a synonym for Western hemisphere. The former is a culutral, sociological and geo-political concept while the latter is simply geographical. SignaturebrendelHAPPY HOLIDAYS 21:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Factual Accuracy Disputed

message: ...at this map.  It's supposed to be a map of the Western World, right?  The last time I checked, Japan was an Eastern country.  I could go on and on, as others have above.  How does one nominate an image for deletion on grounds of inaccuracy?  RobertAustin 16:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As you have perhaps failed to notice, Japan is listed in a different colour to the "core Western countries". It is labelled as part of "Developed countries in east asia and Oceania, sometimes considered western". Due to its economic integration with the West (i.e. its status as a developed country), as well as the impact of Western culture on Japanese life, Japan is indeed sometimes considered part of the Western world, particularly from a contemporary, political, non-historical perspective. The beauty of this map is that it incorporates several layers and definitions of "Westernness", utilising different colours to denote this.  Ronline ✉ 00:22, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: IMHO, the sometimes statement (of Japan and other East Asian Tigers being called Western) is a little OR. I think one user above has made a good point to distinguish Western world vis-a-vis Industrialized world. In this sense, Japan and Korea are industrialized but not western. They may have imported certain western cultural imports (e.g. breads, pop musics, etc) but these do not displace the traditional culture of these countries, rather these western cultural imports act as "supplements". Similarly, if a western country imports certain eastern cultural imports such as Japanese anime, you can't call them the Eastern world, right? Heilme 07:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: My eyes are rolling...

message: I think Georgia and Armenia should be coloured in some way. I'm not sure exactly how. Perhaps other former Soviet republics too. Turkmenistan, definitely not, but Kazakhstan, maybe? I don't know enough about them to tell, really. Does anyone feel qualified enough? Krum Stanoev 15:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan should be coloured yellow, definitely. The tag for the colour yellow even says "Eastern Europe, Balkans, Caucasus". As to the Central Asian republics - I don't think they should be coloured at all. Even though Kazakhstan is developing fast, it is not integrating into Western culture in any way, but rather pursuing a distinct Central Asian direction. Other than their ties to the Soviet Union, which wasn't even wholly "Western" itself, these republics never had any real Western influence.  Ronline ✉ 00:49, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. —Nightstallion (?) 22:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd say they should be coloured the same colour as Turkey. They are about as European as it as far as culture and territory are concerned. Their history, especially that of Armenia and Azerbaijan, is closely intertwined with that of Turkey. In addition to that, these countries are not included into Eastern Europe, according to official definitions. --217.172.29.5 04:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caucasus 

message: How come is Philippines one of the "Developed countries in east asia and Oceania, sometimes considered western" (light blue)??? It's GDP(PPP) per capita is $4,923, while nominal is $1,168 (120th). Its HDI is medium. It is a developing country. Same arguments can be made about the Ocenian islands such as Fiji. And Azerbaijan and Georgia is listed under Western Asia, not under Eastern Europe according to United Nations geoscheme which is the standart geoscheme Wikipedia uses. Lukas19 01:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah I do agree. Philippines perhaps has undergone thorough western (cultural) influences, but it certainly is not western. Meursault2004 00:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Philippines]], Islands, [[Azerbaijan]] and [[Georgia (country)|Georgia]] 

message: I think the description "Developed countries in east asia and Oceania, sometimes considered western, especially in economics" or something like that which emphasized their wealth and modernity (because culturally they are not Western) would clarify some stuff, IMO. Lukas19 01:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Developed Countries in the Far East 

message: I think that Croatia isn't a western country. It isn't even a member of EU or NATO (but only a candidate). Though it has christianity as a main religion I still believe that isn't just enough for being "western". --86.61.15.110 09:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Croatia