Talk:Manga/Archive 3

message: I've moved the old conversations to the archives. More will be archived as needed. --nihon 03:46, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archives

message: Yes, it is an alternative manga format.  I'm very well aware of objections from the fan community.  Nevertheless, they follow the very same type of manga formmating as described in the Manga Format section of this article. KyuuA4 07:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: About OEL Manga

message: what would define a tutorial page link? i submitted one not but an hour ago, and someone erased it. the site was gaining a large amount of popularity, and is now a hub of sorts for the japanese artist, with user submitted tutorials. at least, its better than how to draw manga site. much more origional in my sense, but then again, that is my sense, my opinion. at least, who and why are they changing it? i really dont want to get into some war with someone over a link. heres teh page
http://www.mangarevolution.com Pandy 20:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There have been huge link spamming problems on this page, so if you post a link without first bringing it up here, it is likely to be removed without getting a glance. That said, I think three tutorial links is a nice number and the site you linked to doesn't splatter my screen with ads, so I guess we can leave it in. Shinobu 03:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  external links?-- tutorials pages 

message: That section really should be removed it sounds like an unsupported opinion by someone who sits on a blog all day writing about how much they dont like people who like manga with out much reason about it. 220.253.99.140 06:58, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fans of Manga? 

message: Actually, it is best to keep it.  While it explicitly says that manga style is non-definite, like any other art medium, it expresses the viewpoint of many voices - that manga is not limited to Japan.  The quote from Tokyopop CEO sums it up. KyuuA4 08:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ugh, but that quote comes from a fool.  Manga is not a "lifestyle".  Manga is "Japanese comics" - as in, you know, comics from Japan.  If it's not from Japan, but uses moe style, it's simply moe-style comics, not Manga. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.1.130.41 (talk) 19:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Ugh, but that quote comes from a fool. Manga is not a "lifestyle". " Tell that to a mangaka. KyuuA4 21:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Personally, I think the elided section is large enough and interesting enough to deserve its own article: Manga iconography. To a westerner, the Manga iconography of sweat drops, anger lines, strength lines, etc. would be unfamiliar. I've seen that iconography over a very wide range of manga types, not just moé. I will note that I found it very strange that such a section was not in the article. As for reference, I know Scott McCloud's book Understanding Comics had a short section about it, and I'm sure there are more comprehensive guides on the web, such as the manga wiki and here. --IanOsgood 21:54, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem still remains about sourcing. As it is, the article seems to mix manga specific symbolism with symbolism that could be used in any medium. For instance: "Sakura(Cherry) blossoms indicate a sweet or beautiful moment." That's something that's in every art form the Japanese have. "Characters push their index fingers together when admitting a secret or telling the truth to another." That's like saying "blushing is a symbol for embarassment", it's just something people do in real life. It's not really part of manga icongraphy. Also, the page needs to reworked to be 'Iconography in anime and manga', since I think they use the exact same symbols.--SeizureDog 06:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

text: The only problem here is that a "western" point of view isn't exactly neutral, and is unnecessarily western-centric.  We don't talk about how American comic styles, in the article or in a separate article.  That just gives me an impression that people think that the U.S. comic book is the "norm" and everything else is different.  ColourBurst 21:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's very Western-Centric indeed.  It's to the point where manga is viewed as Japanese exclusive.  The aspect of any entertainment medium or art is -- that is spreads.  The manga style is not contained within Japan.  As more and more members of other consumer markets become inspired by manga, more will ultimatlely develop their own.  Therefore, the most neutral stance is to view manga as an art form with a specific style and set of rules.  Defining those rules and describing a style is by far very difficult.  But it is still do-able. KyuuA4 17:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of "The manga style" section 

message: I read somewhere (can't remember, long time ago) that modern manga owed the big round eyes to Disney's Bambi. Has anyone heard this thing or was I just dreaming? Vicco Lizcano 14:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Might want to read the Osamu Tezuka article (though it's heavily under-referenced itself). Disney does seem to have had a pretty big influence on the moe style though.--SeizureDog 16:17, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bambi? 

message: Is it pronounced "mAHnga" {like mom-gaa}} or "mAInga" {like main-gaa or mango}? --DTD
:I pronounce it Man (rhymes with hang) ga (with a short 'a'). But I'm Australian-Chinese and have a strange accent. A Japanese person would pronounce it man (like in 'da') ga, with the syllables having assonance. In hiragana that's まんが or ma-n-ga. Hope that helps. YuanchosaanSalutations! 05:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi DTD, I'm a native speaker of Japanese. As Yuanchosaan said, every Japanese pronounce the word as "Man (rhymes with hang) ga (with a short 'a')". There are no Japanese who use other pronunciations for the word as far as I know. --Kasuga 12:00, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Rhymes with 'hang'"? I don't know if there's multiple pronouciations of 'hang' or what, but that's completely off. That's like saying it's like mango with an 'a'. (Interesting thing I just found out though: the English word 'mango' comes from the Portuguese word 'manga'. Completely unrelated though.) I find a tad strange that the question is even raised though, considering that we have an audio clip right at the top of the article. M-W.com also has an audio clip for the word. --SeizureDog 03:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I've never heard it pronounced any other way. ¿SFGiДnts! ☺ ☻ 03:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronouncation 

message: In Japan, comic books, manga, make up 60% sixty percent of all books and magazines sold. The reference is an essay in the Art/sociology book edited by Takashi Murakami titled "Little Boy: The Art's of Japan's Exploding Subculture". I do not own this book and just returned it from an inter-library loan, so if anyone else cares to look up the exact reference, there is where you can find it. As a side note, he argues that popular art(the otaku art found in anime, manga, video games, etc...) and "high" (my quotes) art in Japan have merged into one and is a wholly original indigenous art "movement" and calls this Superflat. And while much covers popular art it is not a Japanese version of pop art. (I hope I got that explanation right) VeriGGlater 19:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Funny, I've also read some of that very book, also from a library loan. It would be good to directly reference though.--SeizureDog 22:11, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 40% forty percent of all books and magazines purchased or published in Japan. I made a mistake. Upon rereading parts of the above said book, Murakami states that manga make up 40% not 60% as I put down. Sorry for my mistake. VeriGGlater 10:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Manga is huge

message: I really just couldn't stand for it to stay any longer and removed it. Granted, he is important and should be mentioned, but in no way does he deserve an entire section in the main article on manga. It just seems really bias to me. The removed text can be found at User:SeizureDog/removedOsamuTezuka Some of it should probably be worked back into this or other articles.--SeizureDog 10:57, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The root of Manga is Tezuka Osamu though being insisted by a lot of Manga critics.You must not blot out Tezuka. You should correct the article. (For instance, when it explains the movie, will the name of D. W. Griffith be necessary?) Thank you.--Azukimonaka 18:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Osamu Tezuka section 

message: I found two version of manga-specific wikis, one from wikia and the one listed in the external links section of this article. Maybe it's better if they both merge as one so that collaborators can pool their time and resources together in order to create a good wikisite. I mean it's very confusing with so many manga info websites. Can anyone help?--Janarius 15:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manga wikis 

message: are mangas published in paperback size or regular size? the mangas printed in north america are paperback size, are the mangas printed in japan paperback size, or regular book size?
Sir aaron sama girl 19:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When the chapters are serialized in magazine, the page size is about the same as a standard magazine or comic book page. (See the US version of Shonen Jump for a good example.) Later, when the individual chapters are printed together as a tankōbon, they approximately are the same size as their US counterparts. --Farix (Talk) 21:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Manga Publishing

message: I've replaced the rather long list of non-notable external links with a link to the appropriate Open Directory Project category per WP:EL, WP:NOT a web directory, and consensus of the Wikiproject Spam.  This is to prevent "playing favorites" with links, WP:COI link insertions, and spam.  Thanks. Leuko 17:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excessive external links 

message: Last night Repku added the  tag to the page but didn't explain what was wrong with the article. There's nothing I could see that is obviously wrong with the article, such I've removed the tag pending an explanation. --Farix (Talk) 10:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What needs cleaned up? 

message: this word Suiri thats for crime and mystery goes links to a article on a fish
* Everyeye.it Italian Network: news, reviews and more on anime & manga  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.19.35.72 (talk) 09:08, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  link 

message: I was told the average manga comes out at 11 pages once every week, unlike american comics (which are standard at 22 pages every month), can I get a verification on this?
The latest issue of 週刊少年チャンピオン (Weekly Shōnen Champion, No. 38 in 2007) shows that almost all the manga there came around at 20 pages. I think this is standard as to the pages of manga in the Japanese weekly comic magazines. Shaxshan 12:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it is something that should be mentioned in the article and would fall into the realm of OR if it was. --Farix (Talk) 15:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Publication

message: (a) I'm not sure why Adam Kern's book on kibyoshi is being used as a reference to Hokusai's manga. Kern hardly deals with Hokusai, but focuses on earlier "comicbook" style kibyoshi. This article still needs material on Houksai's manga, which are not manga in the modern (that is, post-Tezuka) sense.
(b) Kern edited a long symposium on kibyoshi and therefore the antecedants to manga. The reference is
Kern, Adam. (editor) (2007). Kibyoshi: The World’s First Comicbook?” Symposium. International Journal of Comic Art, Volume 9, Number 1, Spring 2007, pages 1-486.
Timothy Perper 17:27, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kern references and verifiability 

message: Here are the first paragraphs (WITHOUT formatting) of my revision. Please add comments here or on the Sandbox of my user page at User:Timothy_Perper/Sandbox
Manga (ñüâÊ, Manga?) listen (help·info) (pl. manga) is the Japanese word for comics and print cartoons (sometimes also called komikku). In their modern form, manga date from shortly after World War II (Kinsella 2000) but have a long, complex history in earlier Japanese art (Ito 2005, Kern 2007, Schodt 1986). In the past two decades, manga have become a major part of the Japanese publishing industry (Kinsella 2000, Schodt 1996) and have become increasingly popular in the US and worldwide (Patten 2004, Wong 2006), representing a multi-billion dollar global market (Masters 2006; NEED BETTER SOURCE!!). In Japan, manga are widely read by children, adolescent boys and girls, and adult men and women (Gravett 2004). Manga themes include action/adventure, romance, sports and games, historical drama, comedy, science fiction and fantasy, mystery, horror, sexuality, and business and commerce, among others (Gravett 2004).
Manga and manga-like comics exist in Korea (“manhwa” [citation needed]) and in the People’s Republic of China plus Hong Kong (“manhua”; Wong 2002). In France, “la nouvelle manga” is a form of bande dessinée drawn in styles influenced by Japanese manga [citation needed]. In the United States, manga-like comics are called Amerimanga, global manga, or original English language (OEL) manga [citation needed].
MORE COMING.
Gravett, Paul 2004 Manga: Sixty Years of Japanese Comics. New York: Harper Design.
Ito, Kinko 2005 A history of manga in the context of Japanese culture and society. J. Popular Culture, 38(3):456-475.
Kern, Adam 2006 Manga from the Floating World: Comicbook Culture and the Kibyoshi of Edo Japan. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. ISBN-10: 0674022661; ISBN-13: 978-0674022669.
Kinsella, Sharon 2000 Adult Manga: Culture and Power in Contemporary Japanese Society. Honolulu: University of Hawai'i Press.
Masters, Coco August 10, 2006 America is Drawn to Manga. <http://www.time.com/time/insidebiz/article/0,9171,1223355,00.html> NEED BETTER SOURCE
Patten, Fred 2004 Watching Anime, Reading Manga: 25 Years of Essays and Reviews. Berkeley, CA: Stone Bridge.
Schodt, Frederik L. 1986 Manga! Manga! The World of Japanese Comics. Tokyo: Kodansha.
Schodt, Frederik L. 1996 Dreamland Japan: Writings on Modern Manga. Berkeley, CA: Stone Bridge Press.
Wong, Wendy Siuyi 2002 Hong Kong Comics: A History of Manhua. New York: Princeton Architectural Press.
Wong, Wendy Siuyi 2006 Globalizing manga: From Japan to Hong Kong and beyond. Mechademia: An Academic Form for Anime, Manga, and the Fan Arts, 1:23-45. 
::Please note that this is an EARLY revision, now replaced by later versions. You can find them on my user sandbox, Timpthy_Perper/Sandbox -- and you are invited to comment, make suggestions, and help.
Timothy Perper 19:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Draft Revision of Introduction, with later note 

message: The revised Introduction for the manga article has now been completely written and formatted. It is on my user page Timothy Perper/Manga.
This is ONLY the Introduction, since we’re working on the article section-by-section.
Please look at it if you’re interested, but please do NOT make editing changes directly on the draft. Instead, put comments, suggested changes, questions, and problems onto the DISCUSSION page. This procedure avoids a set of complex and messy glitches in how the Introduction is edited.
In a few days, after people have commented (if they want to), we will REPLACE the present introduction of the manga article – that means the main article – with this new, *revised* introduction. The next sections will be replaced later, so, for a while, the main article will have revised and older material in it.
We have already started work on the next section, which deals with the history of manga, but that section is NOT yet complete.
I want to thank everyone for their help! I mean that most sincerely!! Thanks!!!
Especially Wikipedian Peregrine Fisher!
Timothy Perper 10:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revised Introduction is Ready to be Put In 

message: We're in the final editing stages for the first part of the new "origiins" section, and people are invited again to visit TP/Sandbox2 and add comments, suggestions, and observations.
I have also created User:Timothy Perper/Sandbox3 for the next section of "Origins." Please make comments, observations, and so on.
Oh, can someone make a SINGLE entry for these revision comments, X.1, X.2, X.3, and so on? I have no idea how to do that.
Timothy Perper 01:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please take a look at User:Timothy Perper/Combined to see how the rewrite is going.  I think a critique or two, and it will be ready for prime time. - Peregrine Fisher 03:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

text: OK, I made a few cuts where it says "cut this," but it looks good. Can you check the hyperlinks or did you do that already? Timothy Perper 04:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Next Section of Origins 

message: Books
*Gravett, Paul. Manga: 60 Years of Japanese Comics. New York: Collins Design, 2004. .
*Kern, Adam L. Manga from the Floating World: Comicbook Culture and the Kibyôshi of Edo Japan. Cambridge, M.A.: Harvard University Asia Center, 2006. .
*Schodt, Frederik L. Dreamland Japan: Writings on Modern Manga. Berkeley, Calif.: Stone Bridge Press, 1996. .
*Schodt, Frederik L. Manga! Manga!: The World of Japanese Comics. New York: Kodansha International, 1983.  ,  
Journals
*
===Comment===
This was a list of book references included in the article.  If these can be used as citations into the text, please do so.  If they're already used as citations, then simply cross them out.  Thanks. KyuuA4 06:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old References 

message: This was a list of book references included in the article.  If these can be used as citations into the text, please do so.  If they're already used as citations, then simply cross them out.  Thanks. KyuuA4 06:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: I cleaned up the first (italicized) lines right under the title and added a sentence telling people to look under individual articles for individual manga series, plots, and artists. That will help when we decide how to deal with the biographical material in the original article, as mentioned in a previous comment.
I also added a subheading for the first part of the Origins section. The next two parts will have their own subheadings.
Timothy Perper 10:51, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some subsequent changes were made, but the subhead will remain. Timothy Perper 06:14, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleaned up first lines 

message: New material (up through the middle of the shōjo history subsection) has been added. Please comment and make suggestions. Once again, my thanks to Peregrine Fisher for his help!
We'll finish the shōjo history subsection in a few days, and then start on the shonen history subsection.
Timothy Perper 01:17, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New material added 

message: As we add new material to the Manga entry, we need to make space. This means either deleting or moving the older material. At the moment, that means the Osamu Tezuka material immediately below the shojo manga material we're adding. Does anyone mind if we MOVE the Tezuka material from the Manga entry to the Tezuka entry itself?
We're working Tezuka into the revision as we go and adding new references. The references in the present material are not ideal, and include, for example, one link to amazon.co.jp in Japanese.
What are your feelings about this? 
Timothy Perper 05:16, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have advocated removal of the Tesuka section before. Despite how important the man is to manga, I see no reason for him to have his own section. However, I have no objections to him being mentioned heavily in the prose itself. --SeizureDog 05:31, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, Seizure Dog. We're on the same wavelength about this. Yes, he will be mentioned more than once in the entry itself! Timothy Perper 12:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  We need opinions 

message: Here's the old Osamu Tezuka section.  Some of this can be added into the History section.  Or, some of this can be used in some other aspect. KyuuA4 05:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, KyuuA4! Yes, we'll weave some of this into the new material. Timothy Perper 12:45, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old Tezuka Section 

message: Now that we're moving ahead in revising the Manga article, we're thinking of moving or deleting some sections of the old article. These include --
Section #6 "International Influences," can be moved into the existing article "Manga Outside Japan." We will cover *some* of this material, but in a different light and with many references.
Section #4.1, "Dojinshi," can be moved to existing article "Dojinshi."
Section #7, "Language," is now redundant and can be removed.
Sections #5.1 and #5.2, "Types of Manga" and "Genres," have no citations of any kind and are therefore not Wiki-Verifiable. As a result they are Original Research without any reliable sources. So, in principle, I suppose they could be deleted but I'd prefer to work some of the content into the revision with proper citations and eliminate other parts that seem to be unreliable opinion.
The other sections we don't YET have ideas about, but that will change.
We also suggest removing many of the images associated with these sections.
Please let us know your reactions and opinions.
Timothy Perper 12:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds about right to me.  We need some refs for "Gekiga" and "cultural importance."  A quick overview for "international Influence" with a link to its main page.  Find a few viewpoints for "Classification of Manga."  Remove "Types of manga," because that's covered in the history section and it has no refs.  Finally, convert "Genres" to prose and add refs. - Peregrine Fisher 16:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  No one seems to object to our suggestion for moving material, so we'll proceed to move section 4.1 (Dojinshi) and section 6 (International Influences), and delete section 7 (Language) for the reasons described above. Any problems with that, anyone?  Timothy Perper 18:35, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving and Deleting Material from Old Version of Manga Article 

message: We just put up the final part of the shōjo subsection of the revision of the Manga article.
We are now starting to work on the next subsection, about shonen manga at Timothy Perper/Sandbox5. If you would like to contribute and comment, please feel free to do so!
Timothy Perper 15:50, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to point out that you really should be adding wikilinks to your prose. Such as for manga series that you mention for the first time.--SeizureDog 21:45, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, thanks. This is a step-by-step process, and we're fixing up small glitches as they come to our attention. Wikilinks is one of them indeed. Please let us know about other problems when you find them, and then we can adjust the text. Timothy Perper 22:00, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did a bunch, still some more to do. - Peregrine Fisher 22:08, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shōjo subsection is now in; starting now on shonen manga 

message: We have to choose an image to open the article, to go way up at the top. Here are the problems. I have a suggestion below for how to solve the #1 problem. Now listen up.
1. We add a picture of Sailor Moon -- screams and howls break out -- "She's got a page already!" -- "That's not typical of manga!" -- "Why use shojo? Why not shonen?" -- so we use a picture of Light Yagami instead -- screams and howls break out -- "He's got a page too!" -- "Wait a minute! Shonen manga isn't ALL manga! -- "That's not REPRESENTATIVE" -- so we put in an image of Hamtaro -- screams and howls break out -- "He's a HAMSTER, for cyring out loud!" -- "That's not representative!!" -- so we put in a picture of Me-Hyou -- screams and howls break out -- "I never heard of HER!" -- "Can't use that, it's HENTAI!!!" -- "That's not representative!!!" -- and so on endlessly no matter who we choose.
We can use ONE and ONLY ONE picture, and no single picture of a manga character could possibly represent all manga, Anybody we use will seem to slight all the other possibilities.
2. Here's what I suggest. I have an image, which I already sent to Peregrine since he's the one who will put it in, that shows the Japanese calligraphy of the kanji for manga taken from the earliest example known of the word, a 1798 book cited by Adam Kern (the reference is in the article).
It says it all: manga. And the word by definition DOES represent all of it. And it also illustrates the opening sentence of the article. 
That's the one I recommend we use. It's also quite elegant. The caption will say "The word manga in Japanese calligraphy from 1798."
Comments?
Timothy Perper 21:25, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm.  Manga in old Kanji... hmmm.  Worth a try. KyuuA4 21:33, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a thought, but does anyone happen to know which manga was the first to be published in tankōbon format? If old enough, it might even be free use.--SeizureDog 21:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture for opening the article