Talk:Norway Debate

message: The lead section doesn't even state what the debate was specifically about and its relations to the war. It only comments on "how important it was" and the result of the party transitions. Shouldn't it be changed? Lectrician1 (talk) 17:09, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The second paragraph of the lead explains that the official title of the debate, as held in the Hansard parliamentary archive, is Conduct of the War. Also that, scheduled in advance, it was initiated by an adjournment motion enabling the Commons to freely discuss the progress of the Norwegian Campaign. That, in a nutshell, is what the debate was originally about but it soon developed into an overall examination of Chamberlain's government since the war began. Does that help? No Great Shaker (talk) 18:01, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

text: My answer would be that the lead says it was a "momentous" "far-reaching" debate and then explains it led to Chamberlain's replacement with Churchill. You are correct in so far that it takes the "momentousness" of this for given. In other words, if you go "oh, that's why Churchill came into power - he saved Britain" then I would say, yes, it adequately explains itself. If, however, you go "Churchill? So?" then I can agree it does not. However, the question then becomes what level of competence this rather-specialized article should assume of its readership? (So far, clearly more the former than the latter). Regards CapnZapp (talk) 20:06, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I know nothing about this topic. Am I right that the debate was about helping stop the German invasion of Norway? I was expecting for that basic fact about the purpose of the debate to be mentioned in the lead section, but it's not. Lectrician1 (talk) 16:42, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The debate wasn't about trying to stop the invasion which had already happened and had well nigh succeeded. It was about Allied progress during the campaign and it quickly escalated into a full-scale review of government performance not just during the Norwegian Campaign but since the war began. The lead is not incorrect, although it could be expanded, or reworded in places, as is the case with any article. You need to bear in mind that the article is about the debate and the aftermath, albeit briefly discussed, is actually out of scope. Also, the purpose of any lead section is to summarise the article's narrative and, in that, this one succeeds without going into excessive detail about who said what, etc. Hope this helps. No Great Shaker (talk) 20:21, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead section 

message: Removed this as probably trivia. The source only confirms the quote was made, without establishing any reason why we should report it.
If Boris Johnson actually IS removed, and we can source that this quote was influential in removing him, then yes, it definitely merits inclusion. 
But as long as it is only a random MP making quotes, let's not. CapnZapp (talk) 19:46, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: My first thought was to just amend it, though I wasn't entirely convinced of its merit in being here. I agree it should be removed because, as you say, it's trivia and we don't want to detract from the greatest debate in parliamentary history by mentioning the worst prime minister in parliamentary history. Chamberlain certainly had to go, but there can be no doubt about his honour and integrity. No Great Shaker (talk) 20:38, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Place in parliamentary culture 

message: I do not believe the recent employment of Amery's quotation of Cromwell's words to the Long Parliament in a political dispute contributes anything at all to our understanding of the Norway Debate. We addressed a similar matter above on this page in Talk:Norway_Debate#Special_70th_Anniversary_overhaul toward the end.  While that use of Cromwell's words may have relevance to the current dispute regarding the PM, it is not relevant to this article as it sheds no light on the events of 1940.  And as we did above, it should be deleted. Kablammo (talk) 17:59, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not have a strong view either way and if anything I agree with you which is why I removed the implication that BoJo no longer is PM and the language which apart from being contrary to WP:NPOV seemed to exalt the quote as critical in worsening Johnson's position.  I agree with the previous discussion that the section should not be a simple list of every time an MP has repeated the quote. Perhaps if it transpires that he resigns and the use of the quote becomes critically linked with that then we might want to reconsider, but right now we can do without it. Jtrrs0 (talk) 18:36, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Davis is hardly the first MP in the last 82 years to either use those words or allude to them. It's just WP:RECENTISM to include this one particular incident. You might as well dig out comparisons to Amery of Sir Geoffrey Howe's speech against Thatcher - like Amery this was someone who had once been a strong ally of the PM and also defied his reputation as an absolutely boring speaker. Timrollpickering (talk) 18:48, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

text: I missed it too. I saw "January 2019" yesterday and thought, without reading further, it's an old discussion. Anyway, the item has been removed and the issue is resolved. No Great Shaker (talk) 07:14, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

text: My error, and my apologies to all. Now corrected. Clearly I'm living in the past. Kablammo (talk) 14:07, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  January 2022