Talk:Jesus/Archive 69

message: Identifying the image of Sol Invictus in the Tomb of the Julii as Jesus in a picture caption is misleading.  That is one rather uncommon view.  The works I have read, such as Peter Brown's  The World of Late Antiquity, see it simply as a sol invictus.Lostcaesar 13:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, nice catch there. Homestarmy 17:06, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sol Invictus 

message: Just a quick note: I've been spending a lot of time in the Archives for this talk page, and have gotten frustrated over the difficulty in finding the right archive for reference amongst that vast store of material. I have therefore added complete topic lists on the Key to Archives page for most archives. I have also added hard carriage returns after archive descriptions that are longer than three lines. If any of this annoys anyone, please feel free to revert it. If not, I'll continue as I plow through the other archives. Thanks, Kevin/Last1in 19:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the key very much. Thanks for the update! —Aiden 13:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archive Contents (minor item) 

message: Just been reading this article and I'm confused about the terminology. What are BCE and CE please? BlueValour 22:36, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See common era. Paul B 22:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you; that's helpful. BlueValour 22:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  BC/BCE — AD/CE 

message: I am an editor on the wikipedia anarchism article. There is an editor(s?) who wishes to include Jesus' (along with Thomas Jefferson and Thoreau) as an influence on modern anarchist thought. There is also a vocal group who do not agree that such information is pertinent to an article on anarchism. I thought that there might be people here who could contribute something to the debate. Thanks, Blockader.
:"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's." —Aiden 20:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to say "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's" is kinda only one side of the story. Jesus' flavor of "anarchism" was more along the lines of religious anarchism if one thinks about it, out against the "brokered" forms of Judaism that the Saducees (with the Temple) and the Pharisees (with strict oral tradition) held fast to. I mean, it was very similar to John the Baptist's movement in that sentiment, where John's was a move away from the formalized forms of ritual purity (i.e. the miqvot and priestly/rabbinic approval) to washing ("baptizing") for ritual purity in the Jordan on a daily basis. 'Just food for thought, mind you. :-) אמר Steve Caruso <B>(desk/AMA)</B> 02:27, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Anarchism

message: While we need to standardize these references, we may run into problems both ways. By using individual footnotes for each verse used as a source, we will soon find that our footnotes section is several hundred entries long. Likewise, some sentences use multiple verses, which if cited through the Bible verse template create a long string of verses which hinders the readability of the article. Another thing I personally dislike is the use of references at multiple points in a sentence, rather than at the end. This is sometimes necessary, but in most places in this article, single paragraphs deal with a single subject which can be easily sourced with one footnote. Here are a few solutions I've come up with:
==== Aiden's proposal ====
When more than one Bible verse is provided, use a footnote, otherwise use the Bible verse template. For example, a sentence with one reference will look like this:
Jesus advocated, among other things, turning the other cheek, love for one's enemies as well as friends, and the need to follow the spirit of the law in addition to the letter ().
The same method would be used to replace single references in sentences such as this:
Following his baptism, according to , Jesus was led into the desert by God where he fasted for forty days and forty nights.
So that the sentence would look like this:
Following his baptism, according to Matthew, Jesus was led into the desert by God where he fasted for forty days and forty nights ().
While a sentence with multiple references will look like this:
Jesus sent his apostles to the Gentiles with the Great Commission and ascended to heaven while a cloud concealed him from their sight.; 
This is a nuanced position which already exists in many places in the article, although as of yet it is not consistently enforced.
For paragraphs which cover one particular subject and have multiple sources, convert all references to inline citation with one footnote for one paragraph, unless specific citation is needed. For example, the paragraph on Jesus' relationship with the Pharisees currently looks like this:
Jesus also debated with other religious leaders. He disagreed with the Sadducees because they did not believe in the resurrection of the dead (). The relationship between Jesus and the Pharisees is more complex. Although Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their hypocrisy (), he also dined with Pharisees (), taught in their synagogues (), specified their teachings to his followers (), and counted Pharisees such as Nicodemus among his disciples (). 
Under the proposed format, it would look like this:
Jesus also debated with other religious leaders. He disagreed with the Sadducees because they did not believe in the resurrection of the dead. The relationship between Jesus and the Pharisees is more complex. Although Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their hypocrisy, he also dined with Pharisees, taught in their synagogues, specified their teachings to his followers , and counted Pharisees such as Nicodemus among his disciples.On Sadducees: ; On Pharisees: , , , , .
Please take note of how I've added some notes to the references so that the reader knows what the specific verses relate to. We can get as specific as we need here. I feel that this alleviates the problem of having hundreds of footnotes throughout the article by condensing footnotes according to subject matter. —Aiden 14:19, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposals 

message: When more than one Bible verse is provided, use a footnote, otherwise use the Bible verse template. For example, a sentence with one reference will look like this:
Jesus advocated, among other things, turning the other cheek, love for one's enemies as well as friends, and the need to follow the spirit of the law in addition to the letter ().
The same method would be used to replace single references in sentences such as this:
Following his baptism, according to , Jesus was led into the desert by God where he fasted for forty days and forty nights.
So that the sentence would look like this:
Following his baptism, according to Matthew, Jesus was led into the desert by God where he fasted for forty days and forty nights ().
While a sentence with multiple references will look like this:
Jesus sent his apostles to the Gentiles with the Great Commission and ascended to heaven while a cloud concealed him from their sight.; 
This is a nuanced position which already exists in many places in the article, although as of yet it is not consistently enforced.
For paragraphs which cover one particular subject and have multiple sources, convert all references to inline citation with one footnote for one paragraph, unless specific citation is needed. For example, the paragraph on Jesus' relationship with the Pharisees currently looks like this:
Jesus also debated with other religious leaders. He disagreed with the Sadducees because they did not believe in the resurrection of the dead (). The relationship between Jesus and the Pharisees is more complex. Although Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their hypocrisy (), he also dined with Pharisees (), taught in their synagogues (), specified their teachings to his followers (), and counted Pharisees such as Nicodemus among his disciples (). 
Under the proposed format, it would look like this:
Jesus also debated with other religious leaders. He disagreed with the Sadducees because they did not believe in the resurrection of the dead. The relationship between Jesus and the Pharisees is more complex. Although Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their hypocrisy, he also dined with Pharisees, taught in their synagogues, specified their teachings to his followers , and counted Pharisees such as Nicodemus among his disciples.On Sadducees: ; On Pharisees: , , , , .
Please take note of how I've added some notes to the references so that the reader knows what the specific verses relate to. We can get as specific as we need here. I feel that this alleviates the problem of having hundreds of footnotes throughout the article by condensing footnotes according to subject matter. —Aiden 14:19, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aiden's proposal 

message: IMHO, the header changes on this page are nothing more than flamebait intended to distract excellent editors (like Aiden & Andrew) from improving this article and others in the "religion sphere". What possible difference does it make what the talk-page header says, other than as a stick with which to stir ant mounds? May I suggest that we simply ignore the page after page of header (something most of us do anyway)? Kevin/Last1in 20:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Two things. 1) I really think that Talk:Jesus header should be at the very top. I mean, why have the template that introduces you to this actual page burried 4 templates down. and 2) I think the header list is getting a bit long. If any more projects claim this article, I'd suggest creating a subpage just for that sort of thing. I think the top is starting to be cluttered. And I agree, we should worry more about the content of this article than trivial stuff like that, but I'm totally guilty of being caught up in it on occassion. --Andrew c 02:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headers 

message: I want to translate this page to 'telugu' language. Can you help me to start off?
-Sudha.
user:harappa is a Telugu speaker. He may help if you contact his talk page. Paul B 13:30, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Telugu Translation of this page 

message: Joseph Klausner and other great Jewish scholars of the 20th century firmly believed that Jesus should be seen as a great Jewish teacher of the first century. Das Baz 16:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: PS: Not to mention Historical Jesus, but that article needs a lot of work (as it stands, it's more Q & A/FAQ that encyclopedic.]] Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 16:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Jayjg seems to of been in a slow edit war about this person, I see no reason why this one scholar can be seen as exemplifying Judaism's view of Jesus as a whole. Homestarmy 17:48, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, not as a whole. This info can be categorized as much as an historical view as a Judaic one. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 15:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Joseph Klausner on Jesus