Talk:Armorial of the House of Plantagenet

message: I gave this a B rating but it looks good to me. Might need some introductory material, but I'm not familiar with these types of articles on Wikipedia. Ealdgyth | Talk 04:08, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment

message: I revert this because it is misleading on two points.  Not all fleurs-de-lis allude to France, and there is no consensus that the Scottish tressure has a French origin.  Secondly, the word continue implies that the Scottish tressure has something to do with the Plantagenet claim on France! —Tamfang (talk) 21:35, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I cannot disagree with your reasoning. Perhaps rephrased it might provide extra interest/element of curiosity to the article. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 14:53, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  tressure of France? 

message: The page currently indicates it is a list of arms held by the descendants of GP in the male line.  If so, it should include the cheque coat of the Warenne earls, descended from Geoffrey's son Hamelin.  Otherwise the introductory description should be tweaked to exclude them. From a genealogical perspective they belong here as Geoffrey's descendants, but from a heraldic perspective they don't as they do not show continuity with the lion motif of the Plantagenets, adopting the coat (and surname) of Hamelin's father-in-law. Agricolae (talk) 18:34, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Warenne earls 

message: I just uploaded my rewrite of the article as of 1st of October 2013. Some of the new things I added:
* Include as many Plantagenets as I can starting with Geoffrey of Anjou and ending with Henry Tudor.
* Introduced a key code denoting the relationships of the various armigerous individuals.
* Divide the tables into the House and then into reigns, and members according to their relationship with successive monarchs. 
Notices and explanations:
* Some individuals are repeated, there is a good reason for this, usually because they bore different arms at different times. Such as Henry V.
* I have excluded many daughters, this is because they are not technically allowed to bear arms of their own. This is an article about heraldry after all and not a complete genealogy. When they are included sometimes I use their married arms (father impaled with husband) to represent them. And of course I included the more important ladies, usually those who play significant roles in history (i.e. Margaret Pole).
* I have only included shield of arms (arms) only, because the complete coat of arms did not come into regular use until at least the Tudor period. Personalised badges, supporters and crests; are not inherited inasmuch as a shield of arms, where line of descent can be traced. Shields are borne by right of blood, unlike the other features which are personal choices. This just makes the article less complicated.
* I have excluded numbers in front of peerage titles (i.e. 1st Duke of York, 2nd Duke of Kent) because they do not help in distinguishing the individuals because these titles also need to include the order of creation (Duke of Gloucester. Third creation) to really distinguish them apart. The date of birth and death and the wiki-links to their article should be enough for the lay reader to differentiate between them. 
Please help me improve the article, all suggestions welcome. Sodacan (talk) 03:33, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to say I am not a fan of some of the changes.  It includes arms of people who are not generally considered to be of the House of Plantagenet even by a liberal interpretation (e.g. random wives), it shows completely made-up arms for Henry II and his wife (there isn't the slightest shred of evidence as to what coat he bore, and hers is groundless) and for Richard I, it has eliminated the actual historically documented arms - those without tincture, in favor of a list of speculative arms that cannot be supported in terms of the tinctures.  Yes, having Richard's coats colored makes it look all nice and pretty, but it is farther from the historical record. Agricolae (talk) 05:51, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite 

message: I noticed a couple places where the blazon does not match the emblazonment.
* Margaret Wake, Baroness Wake of Liddell. The image is "Barry of six Or and Gules, in chief three torteaux" but the blazon given is "Or, two bars Gules, in chief three torteaux".
*Anne Mortimer, Countess of Cambridge. The blazon includes "France ancien" but the image shows "France modern".
Indefatigable (talk) 18:19, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blazons don't match 

message: I am having a serious problem with France ancien or moderne. Is it possible that when Henry IV changed the arms to three fleurs-de-lys in 1406, all living bearers of France ancien just switched to France moderne, so we could have a clear cut depiction of arms? Reigen (talk) 08:16, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  moderne or ancien 

message: The blazon given for Henry VI here in note 50 refers to Pinches, J.H & R.V., p. 97, which actually reads: "The arms of Henry VI, which remained the same as his father's, were Quarterly, France modern and England." Are there any other sources for the blazon as it is given here? Thanks!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.208.167.245 (talk) 15:19, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arms of Henry VI