Talk:Late Bronze Age collapse

message: I am deleting the reference to Hyksos, who were 400 years earlier.  The expulsion of Asiatics by Setnakhte at the end of Dynasty 19 is a better reference.John D. Croft (talk) 19:51, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Hyksos?

message: In The End of the Bronze Age Robter Drews specifically states that the Chariotry were defeated (in his theory) by "disorganized masses of running skirmishers," (pg 225) which were subsequently outmatched by close-order infantry (i.e. your "proto-hoplites"). The article as it stands is a gross misrepresentation of his thesis. I am going to correct it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.177.15.195 (talk) 05:09, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Robert Drews: Proto-Hoplite What?

message: Both the use of BC or BCE is alowed in Wikipedia.  But BC (Before Christ) applies to Christian dates, and while it may be applicable in discussing a non Christian topic with people who are not Christian, it may be offensive to force a usage of BC and AD, as it implies a Christian POV.  To remove this bias, personally I prefer a BCE (Before Common Era) dating system, as this certifies a non POV status.
Could the editor who changed the dates from BCE to BC please return them.  Otherwise I will do it myself. John D. Croft 15:36, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: BCE versus BC

message: *The Bronze Age collapse is the name of the Dark Age period of history... No, that's not what the Bronze Age collapse is at all. You have to listen to what you're writing. --Wetman (talk) 01:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: An unthought-through opening

message: The reference to the area as Judea is anachronistic.  Judea did not exist till after the end of the Bronze Age collapse.  As this is an archaelogical article it should use the archaeologically accepted name for the region which is Palestine.  If chronological accuracy is sought it should be Hatti and Canaan, not Syria and Palestine, although these are the geographic expressions preferred for these regions. John D. Croft (talk) 15:16, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Judea or Palestine

message: Not only is much of the section unreferenced (only a sngle source, and that for one of the earliest claims), but the "scientific" additions of 23 Sept 2008 (everything from "On the other hand..." to the end of the section) read like an overwrought personal essay and contradict the earlier (albeit itself uncited) claim about ironworking not appearing until after the collapse. The various claims really need sourcing;in the meantime I'll try to get rid some of the more obviously inappropriate wording. Ergative rlt (talk) 15:12, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ironworking 

message: Mycenae is not between Troy and Gaza. Confusing concerning timeline and location  
 11 May 2010 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.202.20 (talk)  
:Mycenae is south of Troy and North of Gaza.  How would you position it? John Croft (talk) 12:49, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mycenae 

message: It is true that so called Sea peoples devastated all near east in the 13th century BC . But the name of this article is misleading. Because it gives the impression that the collapse was in the bronze age. But it was not; it was in the iron age rather than the bronze age. Hittites who were strucked most severely during the collapse, were already using and even exporting iron . So the the name Early iron age collapse may be more convenient. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 10:42, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The title needs to reflect what this is commonly called. Looking at Google Books:  the current title seems commonly used. Dougweller (talk) 12:10, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, the LBIII Period is known for this collapse. The early Iron Age I is more the dark age or stagnant period (depending on POV). The name is wrong though because it talks about one collapse when there were two in this Age. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 27 Kislev 5774 16:57, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The name of the article 

message: See also the 2010 climate change article by Kaniewski et al published in PDF on leilan.yale.edu.
4.249.48.137 (talk) 16:35, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  more archaeological info 

message: I ask for the relevance resp. authority of Manuel Robbins, author of the Book Collapse of the Bronze Age: The Story of Greece, Troy, Israel, Egypt, and the Peoples of the Sea.
Reasons:
:* The book is self-published.
:* The author cannot be found as any professor / PhD at any university. No short biography in the book. No trace at all in the whole internet. Who is he? What did he do to have competence in the field?
:* The author is author *only* of this book. No other books, no scientific papers on the topic. Not even a homepage.
:* No scientific citations can be found, cf. Google Scholar.
I do not reject self-published authors by principle (I myself am one), but an author should show who he is / why he is competent / and after some time there should be some reactions on his book, citations e.g. And maybe a second book on the topic, or a homepage at least? A review?
On Amazon a funny discussion is going on whether Manuel Robbins is Lord Robbins, and whether this name is right or the other.
If the author cannot proof any relevance, we should remove him. --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 21:23, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is: Manuel Robbins? 

message: Following the above argument I start to delete Manuel Robbins. Still open for discussion. --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 17:16, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion 

message: It seems some Armenian nationalists are trying to insert themselves in the page of history through Wikipedia. 
Urartu, is long thought to be a Caucasian language, probably related to Chechen. I'vent read anywhere that it is Indo-European except for this wiki page. Somebody should take care of this big mistake done in the name of fanatic nationalism.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.180.50.39 (talk) 17:34, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:   "Other groups of Indo-European warriors followed into the region, most prominently the Urartians (Armenians), Cimmerians and Scythians. " 

message: A recent study, perhaps of some use:  Andrew Gray (talk) 11:47, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Environmental causes 

message: This article should be titled the Late Bronze Age collapse. There were two collapses, one at the end of the EB and one at the end of the LB. As a result, the name Bronze Age collapse is not only incorrect, but confusing. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 27 Kislev 5774 16:54, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need for differentiation between early and late Bronze Age collapses 

message: That's the title of a recently published article.. See also "Greek Bronze Age ended 100 years earlier than thought, new evidence suggests" and [http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0106672#s5 "Dating the End of the Greek Bronze Age: A Robust Radiocarbon-Based Chronology from Assiros Toumba". Dougweller (talk) 11:38, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Doug, the dates given in the article suggest the Greek collapse previously was thought to be 1025 BCE.  This is very late.  My references suggest before 1100 BCE, which would confirm the dating discovered (i.e. 70-100 years earlier)John D. Croft (talk) 12:05, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Rapid climate change did not cause population collapse at the end of the European Bronze Age" 

message: Glad to see this article's getting some love, but it could use a bit more Cline. The man wrote a really good book (along with two on the Trojan War) and loves all things LBA. I don't really want to do it myself though as I am good friends with him and so it might not to be kosher. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 9 Tevet 5775 03:46, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nice progress, but needs a bit more Cline 

message: By coincidence this piece in Science  was brought to my attention before I looked at this article. I agree that it is all exciting and may change the way we look at this period in Europe, but I am always hesitant to use material from the media for such things rather than archaeological papers. It's looking pretty convincing, but then there's "“If our hypothesis is correct that all of the finds belong to the same event, we're dealing with a conflict of a scale hitherto completely unknown north of the Alps,” says dig co-director Thomas Terberger," and " Genetic analysis is just beginning, but so far it supports the notion of far-flung origins."
If we do report this it needs to be much more nuanced and tentative, and certainly not mention groups such as the Sardinians who aren't even in Curry's article. And of course it's too early to state it all as fact. Some is, some is hypothesis. Doug Weller talk 08:57, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Battle at the Bridge 

message: Having just seen through the deletion of the article "Earthquake storm", which was based on Nur and Cline's 2000 theory that the collapse was at least partly due to a sequence of major earthquakes, also referred to as a "seismic paroxysm" by others, I was intrigued to see that it doesn't rate even a mention here. Is that the current understanding? Mikenorton (talk) 08:44, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Earthquakes? 

message: I think that this article does not have the conclusion of why the Bronze Age collapsed. Kai2004 (talk) 18:37, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needs detail 

message: The following is unsourced.  Moving here until refs can be found and the content verified.
;Migrations and raids
Ekrem Akurgal, Gustav Lehmann and Fritz Schachermeyer, following the views of Gaston Maspero, have argued that raids were the cause.
Evidence includes the widespread findings of Naue II-type swords (coming from South-Eastern Europe) throughout the region and Egyptian records of invading "northerners from all the lands".
The Ugarit correspondence at the time mentions invasions by tribes of the mysterious Sea Peoples, who appear to have been a disparate mix of Luwians, Greeks and Canaanites, among others. Equally, the last Greek Linear B documents in the Aegean (dating to just before the collapse) reported a large rise in piracy, slave raiding and other attacks, particularly around Anatolia. Later fortresses along the Libyan coast, constructed and maintained by the Egyptians after the reign of Ramesses II, were built to reduce raiding.
The theory is strengthened by the fact that the collapse coincides with the appearance in the region of many new ethnic groups. They include Indo-European tribes such as the Phrygians, Proto-Armenians, Medes, Persians, Cimmerians, Lydians and Scythians as well as the Iranian Sarmatians. The Pontic-speaking Colchians, and non-Indo-European Hurro-Urartuans also seem to have been on the move. Many of the groups settled or emerged in the Caucasus, Iran and Anatolia. Thracians, Macedonians and Dorian Greeks seem to have arrived at this time, possibly from the north, usurping the earlier Greeks of Mycenae and Achaea. There also seems to have been widespread migration of Semitic peoples, such as Aramaeans, Chaldeans and Suteans, possibly from the Southeast.
The ultimate reasons for the migrations could include drought, developments in warfare/weaponry, earthquakes or other natural disasters so the migrations theory is possibly compatible with other theories.
-- Jytdog (talk) 04:26, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced 

message: It may benefit the article to include information about the Dorian Invasion, or invaders from the north, as a potential cultural cause for the collapse. Also, including more information about the Sea peoples would increase validity for that possible cause. ElizabethAcors (talk) 21:23, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dorian Invaders 

message: I notice that this article does not mention the religious change that occurred at this time. Many ancient pantheons shifted, with older gods in the position of head deity being replaced by storm gods all across the area, most famously Chronos and the titans being replaced by Zeus, but also for example El being replaced by Baal. ZacharyFoj (talk) 16:54, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion 

message: I reworded many whole sent’s, (struggling to discern the prior honored colleagues’ intents, and summarized ”these events must explain the collapse of ancient rhetorical pedagogy, whose still-lingering effects must account for the  modern-Dark-Age that bedeviled the syntax of this article. ” JerzyA (talk) 20:38, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh? You ought to know what a WP:LEAD looks like. If you have specific issues with the lead, please explain them in a coherent fashion. Btw, I pressed enter by mistake while doing my edit summary, which was meant to read "sorry, let's keep a conventional text lead, not a first screen full of list items". Johnbod (talk) 00:08, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  I dunno... “A New Beginning” would feel snottily pretentious ... 

message: Currently listed under the Possible Causes: Environmental: Volcanoes section is the Hekla 3 Eruption, however, the Minoan Eruption (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption) potentially had an even higher VEI of 6 or 7 and was in closer proximity to Bronze Age civilizations. It occurred sometime between 1642 and 1540 BCE.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.88.221.159 (talk) 14:54, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thera Explosion 

message: While talking about the Late Bronze Age collapse on a forum the idea that Late Bronze Age collapse is unreality the product of bad archeology came up and we were pointed to Peter James' 1993 Centuries Of Darkness Rutgers University ISBN-10: 0813519500 ISBN-13: 978-0813519500.  Now that clearly meets our reliable source requirement but is it worth including or is is just one of those flash in the pan works that went nowhere?  There is an official website regarding the book but the discussion regarding the theory stops in the last year of the 20th century (2000 technically) ten though the site was "Last modified 12 Aug 2019" is why I ask.--174.99.238.22 (talk) 04:48, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a WP article for Peter James (historian) that mentions the book Centuries of Darkness, so it's not particularly obscure.  That said, I have no idea how the book is currently regarded by mainstream historians.  — Mudwater (Talk) 21:47, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Given another of his books proposes a location for Atlantis, I'm guessing not very well! Johnbod (talk) 22:09, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: The No Late Bronze Age collapse Theory

message: I'm guessing weaponry became more expensive (not less) than arable land but that's not obvious from the sentence. I suggest "could have combined to push the relative price of weaponry (compared to arable land) to *an unsustainably high level*".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:47D0:FE00:BCE8:EBA:433C:57F5 (talk) 18:08, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "relative price of weaponry" in "General systems collapse" 

message: The section mentions complexity a number of times as a weakening factor. For instance, "complexity induces social decline" among several similar ideas. I am not advocating at all against these ideas nor against including them. However complexity is an ill-defined catch-all term. So... I might unpack "complexity induces social decline" as "social cohesion is lost when more and more individuals start to feel that the means by which wealth is generated and distributed do not function at all as advertised" Even if you disagree with this reading, you will agree that "complexity" tends cover what ought to be the most interesting part of the explanation. Now, complexity can indeed be a bad thing. It can also make systems more robust. Complexity simply means different things in different contexts. So an explanation along the lines of "there was too much complexity" is not satisfactory, not because it is necessarily wrong, but just woefully imprecise. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:2DC4:A3DE:F7EE:7C3C (talk) 13:31, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The complexity referred to is social complexity (see also Joseph Tainter#Social complexity), which admittedly is also a notoriously poorly defined term, but I've linked it in the text to at least give a bit of context. – Joe (talk) 14:00, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  General systems collapse, definition of complexity 

message: To add to this article: at least one mention of how China fared during the global late Bronze Age collapse. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 22:07, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: To add to article

message: As a geologist, I suspect major earthquakes, likely triggering tsunamis that wrecked coastal serttlements and some volcanism. The accounts of practically all cities being "destroyed" is telling. Must have been dystopian. Has ash been found, dated at some of these sites? 148.75.153.179 (talk) 02:09, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Volcanic ash, no, afaik. But there are lots of ash layers from fires, suggesting they were burned down. See Minoan civilization for example (they did have the Thera eruption some centuries earlier, but carried on ok. Or the Korakou culture.  Johnbod (talk) 03:44, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major Earthquakes? 

message: The current redirect is at least counterintuitive (Iron Age / Bronze Age!), if not worse. Cannot do it w/o lots of caution & explaining. That is: if it is correct at all. Is it? Arminden (talk) 06:47, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iron I = Late Bronze Age collapse?! 

message: In the figure Mediterranean is spelled ‘meditteranean’. Is this a typo? 2A00:23C7:8797:4B01:8CAD:4101:561A:7684 (talk) 20:00, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, but image files are hard to correct. Johnbod (talk) 04:25, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling of Mediterranean in the figure 

message: "unsuccefully" 71.191.66.116 (talk) 20:35, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Typo in the graphic