Talk:Views of Lyndon LaRouche and the LaRouche movement/Archive 1

message: *Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List of wild fabrications and propagandistic slurs in the present version.
*Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Significant Omissions from the current version
What little of LaRouche's ideas that actually appears in this article has been "spun" so much as to be unrecognizable. Your chances of understanding LaRouche by reading this article are nil. Instead, read LaRouche for yourself: The Substance of Morality.
Weed Harper 05:04, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I wrote a new article which is a concise summary of LaRouche's basic ideas, the sort of thing that would be useful to an encyclopedia reader. I've been around Wikipedia long enough to know that it will quickly be reverted by a group of anti-LaRouche activists that want to suppress LaRouche's ideas, and to flog their personal theories and POV. However, at least it will be available on the history pages. (see here)172.193.204.146 21:41, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

text: The views of LaRouche activists on this article are well-known. Adam 05:19, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless specific, fixable objections are stated, the accuracy and NPOV warnings should be removed promptly - David Gerard 11:36, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  See Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List. --Herschelkrustofsky 13:28, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: No, they need to be here on the talk page so that the objections can be crossed off as each is resolved or invalidated - David Gerard 23:28, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: As you wish. The article was only recently split into three parts; the centralized list was painstakingly organized from previous talk pages by Martin AKA MyRedDice. But I have no problem reproducing it here. --Herschelkrustofsky 02:07, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: I am very sorry but people who speak of vast conspiracys to smear the name of a leader of a minor fringe group have no place on this website, often reading straight from the source is one of the worst places to obtain a neutral point of view, especially a fringe group which actively seeks to recruit new members.  Only a naievetè would believe otherwise.
   After all, if you wanted to get an accurate and unbiased understanding of the practices and controversies of even a mainstream political party would you talk to the candidate that is up for re-election? Of course not.  On The other hand one would not ask his opponent either. An intelligent person would ask someone with absolutley no stake in the election either way.
    Now I apoligise if this offends Larougites but it is absolutley irrational to believe that almost every single person in power in virtually the entire industrialized world has an interest in seeing Larouge fail.  More than likely, at least the vast majority of them could care less.- 67.169.170.140 06:13, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Regarding the Adam and Andy version

message: In an effort to help mediate and calm down this dispute, I'm going to rope off some things and say "Don't do this." The list will be added to as needed. But for now, if you do any of these things, your edit will be reverted, plain and simple.
#Misleading edit summaries. If your summary says "Added X" and neglects to mention that it also removes a whole bunch of stuff, your edit will be reverted.
#Removing the dispute tag. If you remove the dispute tag, your edit will be reverted, and you will probably get a 24 hour block for vandalism, as everybody has now been warned about this.
Not yet on this list, but very, very close to being on this list is insertion of flagrantly POV phrases.
Let's try to be civil here. I still encourage someone on the anti-LaRouche side to take a pass either through their own preferred version or through Herchel's preferred version and try to NPOV it instead of a revert war. Either take out the claims of "incoherence" (Or, better yet, note that they are points of view) or, probably even better, take the version that most represents the POV opposite yours and insert paragraphs explaining your POV. Snowspinner 21:05, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
The LaRoucheite version of this article is complete rubbish, but since other people are working towards a "compromise" version of the article I will refrain for now from reverting it. HOWEVER to delete the "LaRouche and the Jews" section, which documents LaRouche's Holocaust denial, is completely unacceptable, and unless any compromise version of the article includes this section, I will revert to my last edit. And since the version currently visible to the public is grossly dishonest and misleading, I will not wait long before doing so. Adam 01:07, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Just so I know what I'm dealing with here (I'm very deliberately not educating myself on LaRouche here, so that I remain unbiased), what is wrong with their version? I mean, are there factual inaccuracies, and if so, will you indicate exactly what they are? Snowspinner 01:30, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
With all due respect, someone who is not educated about LaRouche, deliberately or otherwise, is in no position to arbitrate on these matters. I suggest you read the edit history of the Lyndon LaRouche article and get up to speed. In the meantime, I would like a response to my point about the "LaRouche and the Jews" section. If I am not assured that this section will be included in your compromise version, I will revert to the most recent version which does include it. This is a matter of principle on which compromise is not possible. Adam 01:41, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

text: I'm not trying to arbitrate it - I'm trying to mediate it, and to evaluate the positions based on the evidence. I mean, I'm not unaware of LaRouche and the controversy that surrounds him - but I'm also not prejudging specific opinions. LaRouche is a controversial figure. I expect that he will have lots of controversial views that most people think are absurd. I expect that an NPOV article will present these views, as well as people's objections to them. Am I mistaken in any of these? Snowspinner 01:48, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
I would like a response to my point about the "LaRouche and the Jews" section. If I am not assured that this section will be included in your compromise version, I will revert to the most recent version which does include it. This is a matter of principle on which compromise is not possible. Adam 03:03, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Immediate reversion

message: 13. "In NCLC publications during the 1970s the Jews were accused of running the slave trade, controlling organized crime and the drug trade."
LaRouche has never accused "the Jews", nor any other ethnic or religious group, of running orcontrolling anything. He has accused Jewish-surnamed individuals such as Meyer Lansky with trafficking in narcotics, just as he has accused non-Jewish-surnamed individuals. He has never characterized "the Jews", or any other ethnic group, as controlling anything.--Herschelkrustofsky 20:15, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It's certainly documentable. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the evidence is against you on this Hershell
Great. Cite some. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jews and the slave trade 

message: I've still not come down and said "X is the basic version." I think both versions are seriously flawed. Weed/Herschel's version, I think, has the distinct advantage of actually containing a summary of Lyndon LaRouche's political system. It contains the massive weakness, however, of not indicating A) that this system is highly controversial, B) that people outside of LaRouche's supporters tend not to find LaRouche as coherent as all that, and C) that LaRouche has taken controversial views on other issues beyond his general philosophy. Since this is an article on his views, not his philosophy, I think sections like the anti-Semitism section are very, very important to have. I also think an account of his political philosophy is important to have.
My problems with the Adam/Andy version, as I have said, is that it's a mess of POV editorial comments about LaRouche, and that its organizational structure is to move through controversial points about LaRouche instead of through LaRouche's views in an NPOV manner.
My feeling is that a "default version" would probably be an amalgamation of the two articles. I've got an incredibly busy morning ahead of me, so if someone else wants to try to merge the two articles into one version, that'd be neat. Otherwise, I'll get it this evening.
My sense would be, basically, the Hersch/Weed version followed by the Adam/Andy version, with a new introductory paragraph being inserted, and with the current lead of the Hersch/Weed version being the first paragraph of a section called "LaRouche's political philosophy," and the Adam/Andy section being titled something like "Controversial views of Lyndon LaRouche." Snowspinner 14:23, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
:I am making an initial attempt to carry out your proposal. --Herschelkrustofsky 10:49, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The Basic Version

message: Adam deleted this section, saying "it doesn't belong in the article." By the same token, Weed objected to the insertion of a paragraph of opinions about why Ramsey Clark ought not to be taken seriously, over at Lyndon LaRouche. I now believe that they are both mistaken in their judgement, based on some reading that I have done (at the suggestion of others on the talk page) about the fine points of Wikipedia NPOV policy. When opinions of someone who purports to be an expert are introduced to the article, it is fitting and proper to explore the qualifications and possible biases of the cited expert (in this case, King, Berlet, and so forth.) So, I would argue that this section belongs in the article, without question. It is definately in keeping with the Wikipedia policy of citing sources -- the reader should know something about the source. --Herschelkrustofsky 03:52, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you give the citation for their admitting to these meetings taking place? And also some source of the causality? (That is, that the meetings directly led to waves of anti-LaRouche criticism?) Snowspinner 03:57, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)
I actually deleted it primarily because I don't believe it and won't do so until I see some independent (ie, non-LaRouche) evidence for it. Adam 04:42, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: If you saw a LaRouche source for it, would you accept its addition if its source were clearly indicated? Snowspinner 06:46, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)
No. Adam 07:20, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Critics of LaRouche

message: I removed the following addition by User:C Colden:
:However, during this period LaRouche publications such as Campaigner magazine often promoted Philo of Alexandria and Maimonides as positive examples of the "Platonic humanist current in Judaism," and most of the leadership of the NCLC was Jewish.
Perhaps it may make sense to reinsert some version of it if the follwoing questions are discussed: 1) Is there any evidence for this? and 2) If so, it is a relevant "balance" to the other material in the paragraph. BCorr|Брайен 19:32, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I reinserted it with the source: Dec 1978 issue of "Campaigner." I have seen it in other publications from that era, but that one I specifically remember. As far as the Jewish members, even Chip Berlet, who hates LaRouche, admits to that .
Weed Harper 21:22, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Political_views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche#LaRouche_and_the_Jews|LaRouche and the Jews section]] 

message: This entire section reads like someone's personal theory, not suitable for an encyclopedia article. I inserted a "dubious" label after this: "LaRouche's political organization is built entirely around his own personality and the promotion of his words and ideas." It should be removed, because no one joins the LaRouche movement as an activist without becoming thoroughly acquainted with Henry Carey, Alexander Hamilton, Friedrich Schiller, Plato, Gauss, FDR, and so on. Weed Harper 14:42, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: "Is LaRouche a Fascist?" section

message: I am informed that Snowspinner is on a Wikivacation, which is unfortunate, because I think he had a pronounced civilizing impact on the editing here. I would like to urge editors to stick to his guidelines: provide a clear an honest rationale for each edit, and do not revert multiple edits with a single misleading edit memo. The LaRouche-related pages have made a noticeable shift towards compliance with the NPOV guidelines, and while there is much work left to be done, I hope that all parties concerned recognize that there has been progress.
--Herschelkrustofsky 21:14, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Snowspinner's mediation

message: Can we remove the NPOV notice now?AndyL 21:49, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I think LaRouche's view is that FDR was the best president of the 20th Century -- if I'm not mistaken, he has said that Lincoln was the best president overall. If you could be more specific about the "international meeting," I might be able to chime in on it. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:49, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: That would be the Congress for Cultural Freedom. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:16, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: The purpose of the first section of the article is to present LaRouche's core beliefs and provide a summary of his world view. The "conspiracy theory" section comes under "criticism of LaRouche" because it is a discussion of things that LaRouche may actually have said, which his opponents believe fall under the pejorative category of "conspiracy theories." 
SlimVirgin has inserted the material from Take a Break magazine into this section, and then tried to move the entire section into the "core beliefs" portion of the article, because he wishes to assert that it is just unforgiveably wacky and iconoclastic to suggest that the world's weathiest and most visible aristocratic family acts like a bunch of overdressed refugees from The Godfather, even to the point of "bumping off" its perceived enemies, and that anyone (such as Princess Diana herself) who would suggest such a thing must be avoided, ridiculed, banned from Wikipedia, or dealt with even more harshly. It is for this reason that Slim's latest contribution belongs under "criticism of LaRouche." I am leaving the NPOV dispute tag up until there is a consensus on this topic. --Herschelkrustofsky 12:37, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: SlimVirgin's latest contribution

message: The structure came about as a result of the mediation of Snowspinner, which ended four months of incessant edit wars. The first section of the article is comprised of views of LaRouche that his supporters, such as myself, consider most important. The second section is comprised of views, or in some cases alleged views, that anti-LaRouche activists such as yourself, Slim, prefer to emphasize. I have re-worked the subject headers to make this more explicit. Please do not move your edits into the first section without first presenting an argument on this talk page as to why the present structure is unfair or misleading. The present structure came about as a result of much hard work and compromise. --Herschelkrustofsky 16:14, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The structure of the article