Talk:Kī-o-rahi

message: Well it does exist to some extent nzherald , education gazette . The question seems to be did it exist more than say 20 years ago, let alone a 100 or 150. - SimonLyall 01:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We are aware of the references cited, however the "Legend of Rahi" appears to be completely made up and the history of the game probably is as well. - SimonLyall 10:31, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: The author of this page inserted a reference to Elsdon Best's Games and Pastimes of the Māori. I have a copy of the book and there are no references in it to Ki-o-rahi or to support any of the statements in this article that he indicated were supported by Best. If page numbers are supplied to contradict this, I will have another look. In fact the only balls Best mentions are poi balls. Also, the author used as a reference A TV4 show by Murray Deaker in 2000. Sorry that is not a verifiable source - we need something that we can look up to verify it - and given the attempt with the Best references, it looks very much like this is a deliberate attempt to mislead and perhaps the author should receive other warnings. TV4 is a music channel for one thing, and Murray Deaker - well, nuff said. Anyone can say 'I saw it on TV seven years ago' - why should we believe it if we have no way to confirm it Kahuroa 00:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like Kahuroa is setting himself up to be a gatekeeper of all Maori knowledge. I would sooner not have the work tainted by a neo-liberalist. His referring to words in 'authoritive dictionaries' is farcical because they do not include ancient terminology. Poi and ball are interchangeable terms, perhaps Kahuroa would be happier with 'paoro' :-). If you are wanting to look up contentious pastimes look no further than 'waka ama' and 'kapa haka' but that is another story. Most of the ki-o-rahi info comes from wananga, elders, uni based research etc I challenge you to find any historical records of waka ama and kapa haka ...good luck. Ma te wha. The game is doing ok here and internationally, I look forward to putting a moderate account on this site anew of ki-o-rahi and would sooner start from scratch, adding precise references that will be accepted.I go to Otago Uni where there are no people who have set themselves up as "know alls". There are also no books out on the subject that I have sourced which is in itself problematic. We play with a "ki" at uni, however I will be mindful that the "authoritive dictionaries" are void of ancient sports references and will lok up the appropriate modern term and use terms like "paoro". I will also ask kaumatua who have helped us to try and equate their terms with modern terminology. Which "authoritive" dictionary do you use? and if you look up the back of your Elsdon Best copy please let me know how many of those terms are in your dictionary please? Regards and apologies to you all for such sloppy work. Are magazines like Tu Mai and Mana magazine ok as references? and should I concentrate on the game itself rather than any history unknown by moderators here? I would like to write about 'tapu ae' also and wondered Kahuroa if you could kick that subject off, is it in your dictionary? It is another very old game, have you heard of it? PLease let me access data in your dictionary, we need to urgently notify students at Otago about restricting Maori usage to that "authoritive dictionary" only.One more question - Kahuroa, is Io part of Maori cosmology? (unsigned comment from User:Sossos)
Attacks on me are beside the point.The issue is whether or not there are any verifiable references to Ki-o-rahi as an ancient game, since that is what you have been claiming, and since Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia. No more, no less. Kahuroa 05:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Sossos, can you please sign your articles. Also please address the problem of the article. If you have sources about the origin of the game especially reference older than 20 or 30 years or so then please post them. It appears that some dubious sources were used originally in the construction of this article. If the sport really is hundreds of years old then there should be at least some written evidence of this, old newspapers articles, complaints from teachers about children wasting their time playing it, stuff like that. - SimonLyall 10:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI Sossos, there are lots of references to 'kapa haka', and 'waka ama' in 19th century books and dictionaries, and their histories are well known, and Io also appears in 19th century texts. For authoritative dictionaries, make that any dictionary or book written prior to the last 20 years.  And yes, of course any words in Best and all books like that are in the good dictionaries, which is why it is so surprising that there are no entries anywhere for Ki-o-rahi if it is an old game. Kahuroa 04:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I have no connection with this whatsoever. But on Wikipedia there are the policies Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability. Personal knowledge is irrelevant. Published sources are all that counts. If they are being disseminated by Wananga and not reported in print, then that's unfortunate - but here "verifiability, not truth" is the criterion. Otherwise, it's no more than rumour: Aweawe ana nga korero i runga o Te Piware.Gordonofcartoon 04:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that is the dilemma here. The approach that Sossos is used to derives from another worldview. The founding policies that the Wikimedia Foundation requires of all the language Wikipedias make them unable to deal with other kinds of knowledge. I understand where Sossos is coming from, but I cannot change how Wikipedia works. Gordon, you took out the reference to that personal website, but I would like to put it back since it allows us to link to the rules of the game and the legend, as long as we note the disclaimer, without breaking the Wikipedia rules. That way I think we can do this subject a little more justice. And I have found a quote in Best that mentions the suppression of games, which adds weight to the idea that this game could be a survival, but unfortunately it doesnt mention Ki-o-rahi. Kahuroa 05:56, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep. Being in an unwritten tradition doesn't mean it's untrue, just that it's not the kind of information Wikipedia is set up to handle. As to that site, OK. It's always a difficult decision whether to link to a site that is partially reliable, but the rules page is certainly good. Gordonofcartoon 12:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Attempt to manufacture references?

message: I added a website mentioned in todays ODT feature section, I don't think I can link the ODT article itself without a subscription. FYI University of Otago PE students are running a Ki-o-rahi tourney soon.Nankai 02:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ODT feature article added as ref 

message: On August 1st I tried to edit the ki-o-rahi stub. It is woefully inaccurate and I would like to correct these misconceptions. A runanga on the East Coast, Ngati Porou Hauora are building a traditional ki-o-rahi field to celebrate 1000 yrs of ball playing in Aotearoa, see http://www.gisborneherald.co.nz/article/?id=13170 and I also wanted to make clear that traditional ball games and the art of making the traditional balls from harakeke can be found in a number of publications, including the Encyclopedia of Play in Society Today (Sage), but these were also wiped???? If you have a look at the original newspaper article from the NZ Herald, which the ki-o-rahi stub seems to be based on, it is terribly construed, you will find many blatant innacuracies including the King Movement origimating in the 1970s! I would like moderators on this site to consider whether their policies are being adhered to by whomever is wiped my information from the stub. Thankyou, Temepara. 4/08/09  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Temepara (talk • contribs) 21:50, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The article just says "We’re trying to get a traditional ki-o-rahi field built in Uawa" not that is is built or in the actual process of building. The NZHerald article doesn't say that the King Movement was from the 1970s but that during the 1970s it pushed a resurgence in Maori activities. As for the rest of the post the BIG problem is that it really looks like the game was invented post-WW2 and an ancient history of it was made up, repeated, and in some cases believed. Please see other discussion on the talk page. Obviously if you can find actual documentation of older origins of the game that will change everything. For example many old newspapers are scanned and on the web and if Maori soldiers took it to Italy then this should be mentioned in published dairies and histories. We really need good sources, especially those that are older than the 1970s - SimonLyall (talk) 12:01, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

text: I see what you mean by lack of refs for Mau rākau, this might have to be addressed as well. As for the rest please perhaps just write what you want to say and list your references. If they are obviously good then there should be no problems. Seriously if this is an ancient sport then there should be no problems getting some good sources especially if Ngati Porou spent 2 years researching it - SimonLyall (talk) 10:09, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

text: Could you please be specific with what problems you have with the article. - SimonLyall (talk) 08:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits in Aug 2009 

message: Hi, any chance of a fuller rules explanation - and perhaps a diagram of the pitch and  photo of a game? EdwardLane (talk) 15:32, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  More rules please 

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