Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Hebrew)/Archive 2

message: Sign	Latin Transliteration	Gilgamesh proposal
א   	ʾ                    	ʼ
בּ  	b                    	b
ב   	ḇ/v                  	ḇ, b, (v)
גּ  	g                    	g
ג   	ġ                    	ḡ, g
דּ  	d                    	d
ד   	ḏ                    	ḏ, d
ה   	h                    	h
הּ  	                     	hh
ו   	w                    	w
ז   	z                    	z
ח   	ḥ                    	ḥ, sometimes archaic ḫ
ט   	ṭ                    	ṭ
י   	y                    	y
כּ  	k                    	k
כ, ך	ḵ/x                  	ḵ, k, (ḫ)
ל   	l                    	l
מ, ם	m                    	m
נ, ן	n                    	n
ס   	s                    	s
ע   	ʿ                    	ʻ, sometimes archaic ġ
פּ  	p                    	p
פ, ף	f                    	p̄, p, (f)
צ, ץ	ṣ                    	ṣ
ק   	q                    	q
ר   	r                    	r
שׁ  	š                    	š
שׂ  	ś                    	ś
תּ  	t                    	t
ת   	ṯ                    	ṯ, t
Sign           	Latin Transliteration	Gilgamesh proposal
לַ             	a                    	a, á
לַא            	                     	ậ
הַּ, חַ, עַ (final)	                     	ª, ă
לֶ             	e                    	e, é
לֶא, לֶי       	                     	ệ
לֵ             	ē                    	ē, (ḗ)
לֵא, לֵי       	ē                    	ê
לִ             	i                    	i, (ī), í
לִי            	ī                    	î
לֻ             	u                    	u, (ū), ú
לוּ            	ū                    	û
לֹ             	ō                    	ō, (ṓ)
לֹא, לוֹ       	ō                    	ô
לָ (small)     	o                    	o
לָ (big)       	ā                    	ā
לְ (quiescent) 	(none)               	N\A
לְ (sounded)   	ə                    	ə
חֲ             	ă                    	ă
חֱ             	ĕ                    	ĕ
חֳ             	ŏ                    	ŏ
Gilgamesh's proposal is based on the transliterations used in college-level linguistics texts, dictionary appendices and highly detailed gazetteers. - Gilgamesh 22:42, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Transliteration (academic)

message: There is a lot of talk here, and because the last page was archived (at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Hebrew)/Archive 1), the following are recorded here (in their own words) as proposing simple usable formats for naming conventions of Hebrew on Wikipedia IZAK 11:07, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to thank you, Gilgamesh, for finally expressing your thoughts in a clear, convincing and non-confrontational manner. I haven't been able to follow all this discussion's heavily technical, nikkudot talk, but I will now agree with you to include common spellings and transliterations along with Bible Hebrew and Arabic translations, as well as anything else used by scholars of various religions, and not siphon them off into redirects or Wikidictionary. However, I don't agree about using the Israeli government's spelling system for place names. I live here and I can tell you, they are unintelligible and often inaccurate. Nes Ziyyona should look like what it say, "Nes Tziona"! Yoninah 21:31, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a question - assuming Gilgamesh's proposal was accepted, how would extensive Jewish texts auch as the Alenu be transliterated? I like the way it is currently transliterated, but I can't use Gilgamesh's proposal there, it's not possible. It is only possible in small phrases. There is a practical side to this, and I remind you that Britannica uses non-fuss transliterations. Izehar 21:39, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not criticising anything - two or more transliterations would be fine IMO. My main concern is how to implement them. Is your proposal going to apply only in the case of names, or whole texts, because if it did, then we'd have a problem. Izehar 22:13, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That shouldn't be a problem.  Notice that I fixed the bulk of :Category:Cities in Israel. - Gilgamesh 00:25, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Well, one of the appeals of Standard Hebrew is that it is both fairly conservative and uses fewer diacritics than the transliterations of Masoretic texts.  You know how I've made extensive templates for individual Hebrew letters and niqqud?  I'm thinking it might also be a good idea to make some templates for some of the more complicated letters commonly used in academic Semitic transliteration (Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, Amharic, Akkadian, etc.), so that they will both display as appropriately as possible, and be editable and readable in the editing window.  My Hebrew alphabet and niqqud templates have very brief but descriptive names like "hbralef", "hbrsheva", etc., and there are template redirects so that "hbrsheva", "hbrshva", "hbrshewa" and "hbrschwa" all work identically.  I'm thinking of using a similar format for Semitic transliteration letters, such as "semsh" for š, "semkh" for ḫ, "semk_" for ḵ, "semt." for ṭ, "semayn" for ʻ, "semschwa" for ə, etc.  As for transliterations, it really is no different from snippets of text in other languages—rather than changing the spellings to adapt to English, just use a fairly simple internationally neutral transliteration scheme (which is most NPOV, IMHO), rather than the myriad different cultural systems targetted at specific localized audiences.  And, where clear, use the acute mark for non-final vowels that are accented.  The result remains reasonable and fairly simple.  For example: "Bərešit bara Elohim et hašŠamáyim və'et ha'Áreẓ."  Anyway, I think I'll get started on some templates. ^_^ - Gilgamesh 00:52, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recap of the (mostly) KISS proponents 

message: Okay, I've finished some templates for a variety of Semitic languages (I don't know yet if I have everything necessary for Ge'ez and Amharic though).  These templates don't have the Unicode template already encoded into them (there are good reasons for that), so the Unicode template will have to be enclosed around single characters or groupings of them.  Here are the relevant templates for special letters for Hebrew and associated Canaanite languages in their various forms.  The vast majorty of these are not used in Standard Hebrew, but they have their occurrances in Canaanite linguistics studies.
 = ʼ.
 = ʻ.
 = ª.
 = Ă.
 = ă.
 = Ạ.
 = ạ.
 = Á.
 = á.
 = Ậ.
 = ậ.
 = Å.
 = å.
 = Ǻ.
 = ǻ.
 = Ā.
 = ā.
 = Â.
 = â.
 = Ấ.
 = ấ.
 = Ḇ.
 = ḇ.
 = Č.
 = č.
 = Ḏ.
 = ḏ.
 = Ə.
 = ə.
 = Ĕ.
 = ĕ.
 = Ẹ.
 = ẹ.
 = É.
 = é.
 = Ệ.
 = ệ.
 = Ē.
 = ē.
 = Ḗ.
 = ḗ.
 = Ê.
 = ê.
 = Ế.
 = ế.
 = Ǧ.
 = ǧ.
 = Ḡ.
 = ḡ.
 = Ġ.
 = ġ.
 = Ḥ.
 = ḥ.
 = Ḫ.
 = ḫ.
 = Ī.
 = ī.
 = Í.
 = í.
 = Î.
 = î.
 = Ḵ.
 = ḵ.
 = Ḳ.
 = ḳ.
 = Ŏ.
 = ŏ.
 = Ō.
 = ō.
 = Ó.
 = ó.
 = Ṓ.
 = ṓ.
 = Ô.
 = ô.
 = Ố.
 = ố.
 = P̱.
 = p̄.
 = S̱.
 = s̱.
 = Ṣ.
 = ṣ.
 = Š.
 = š.
 = Ś.
 = ś.
 = Ṣ́.
 = ṣ́.
 = Ṯ.
 = ṯ.
 = Ṭ.
 = ṭ.
 = Ū.
 = ū.
 = Ú.
 = ú.
 = Û.
 = û.
 = Ẕ.
 = ẕ.
 = Ẓ.
 = ẓ.
 = Ž.
 = ž.
- Gilgamesh 04:47, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I cannot imagine what these may be useful for. I suggest, instead, we build a decent "Semitic" section in MediaWiki:Edittools, and/or a transliteration section in the "Hebrew" menu there (as I've done already for Arabic). Please use  to mark transliterations of Semitic, until we have a template marking Hebrew transliterations in particualar (along the lines of ). dab (ᛏ) 15:53, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semitic transliteration templates 

message: A box template has been created to display a Hebrew word and its transliteration has been created. The template was then proposed for deletion. Please see Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:Hebrewterm
--Hoziron 13:02, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: My opinion now is that:
# The most helpful thing is to give a simple presentation of the most common 1 or 2 contemporary pronunciations (like "bayit, bayis" or , / ' bajɪs/).
# The most precise thing is to present the vocalized Hebrew with a link to an encyclopedia article that explains vocalized Hebrew script (like Hebrew: בַּיֵת).
Unfortunately, the current revision of Hebrew alphabet is bad for that purpose. I would like us to make it as clear as Gujarati script is (at least, for those who have Indic script support). It only took me a couple of minutes to understand how "dhanyawaad" (thank you) is spelled in Gujarati script.
--Hoziron 04:06, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Does Standard Hebrew use /a/ or /ɑ/?  Tomertalk 01:55, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keeping it simple 

message: It seems that there hasn't been any discussion on this page for a while, and therefore I must assume that the transliteration written on the page is the final version. That's good, I agree with everything there. We should go on and label this as policy and seal it. However, there are still two issues:
*Hey HaYedia - do we write words with it (as an example, HaSharon) as HaSharon, Ha-Sharon, Ha-sharon, Hasharon, Hassharon or any other way? I personally like capitalizing the start of the actual word (HaSharon), although a user has previously disagreed with me on this. We should probably reach a consensus on this before finalizing the page.
**Why not ha-Sharon (no capital H in ha-). Only if the noun is proper, it should be capitalized, correct? ←Humus sapiens ну? 09:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "ha" is not a noun but an article. I don't know whether it should be capitalised or not, I can think of arguments going both ways. But I do like the idea of capitalising the start of the actual noun. --woggly 11:11, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While as a direct transliteration, maybe capitalizing the 'ha' is unnecessary, IMO it looks awkward (as far as the English language goes) when put in context. Then again, so does capitalizing a letter in the middle of a word. However, I definitely don't think there should be a hyphen in words with hey hayedia. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 11:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Brushing up

message: The reasons for what I wrote are as follows:
Yud / i:
A yud will result in an "i" (although it is not part of a hirik malle) in the following cases, especially at the end of a word:
לַי/לָי = lai 
לֵי = lei 
לוֹי = loi 
לוּי = lui 
These sounds are, I believe, consistent with their English pronunciations, and are their usual Hebrew transliterations. A yud which is a mater lectionis will not be transcribed at all (אֶחָיו = ehav, not ehaiv or ehayv), but I cannot think of a "quick n' easy" way to tell when a yud is a mater lectionis.
Shva na/nah:
The difference between a shva na (נע) and nah (נח) is that the shva na represents a syllable (the schwa), while a shva nah simply represents a stop. For instance, the shva in מְנַשֶה ( M'nashe(h) ) is a shva na, while the shva in אֶפְרַיִם (Efrayim) is a shva nah, and is not "pronounced" at all. A shva na requires an apostrophe to indicate the existence of a syllable. I believe this must be what the original "always no vowel" meant.
--Eliyak T·C 16:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that "ai" and "oi" should be written as such, and it makes sense for consistency's sake to write "ui" as such; and I agree that sh'va na should be marked with an apostrophe. I've reverted your changes to the page, though, as such changes should be discussed first. (And we don't need a quick-and-easy way to identify silent yuds; we simply specify that silent yuds are omitted, and if someone doesn't know whether a given yud is silent, then they shouldn't be messing with the transliterations.) Ruakh 17:03, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The original entry for yod, before you changed it, was: "Y only when pronounced as a consonant," which you changed to "y, except omitted when it doesn't have a vowel." The original entry for shva was "always no vowel" (changed by you to "omitted"). To me, it seems that while the original version was somewhat ambiguous, my "changes" are fully in line with their intent as well as with actual usage. I believe that your version does not give accurate rules for these two entries, as I have described above. If my changes are to be reverted pending discussion, then yours must be as well. --Eliyak T·C 01:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

text: *My apologies- I was in a bad mood when I wrote the above comment and it's a bit out of character for me. Just do whatever you think is right with the page. --Eliyak T·C 15:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't apologize; a true discussion requires stating one's opinions, and I don't think you stated yours rudely or anything. Re: "when pronounced as a consonant" vs. "when it [has] a vowel": You're right — I screwed up and wasn't think of "ai" and such — but I've fixed that. Re: "always no vowel" being ambiguous: I guess you're right. Since shva na is a vowel, writing it as no vowel means omitting it completely; but the writer might well have meant "no vowel letter (A/E/I/O/U)." The reason I thought my changes were okay was that I didn't intend them as substantive changes; that is, I meant to keep the policy the same, but to state it more clearly. I guess I screwed up on that front, though, and I apologize. Ruakh 16:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent changes 

message: Should it be an apostrophe? We've had an entry called Giv'atayim for ages and it seems to be the accepted spelling. Har'el (הראל), not Harel, seems to be another good example. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 11:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Shva before vowel