Talk:Armenian genocide/Arguments

message: How to decide a nonsence is a nonsence.
Pity Americans, pity Armenians !!! Poor politicians.
CARLSON:  Congress is getting set to take on genocide.  Not the genocide that‘s been taking place on and off for the past several decades in Africa, but killings of Armenian Christians at the hands of the Turks that took place around the time of the First World War.  Almost nobody denies that those killings took place.  They did.  And yet the symbolic resolution, which describes them as genocide, has inflamed relations with Turkey, a key ally in the Iraq war effort.  
The White House says this resolution could put American soldiers at risk.  And yet backers of the bill, mostly Democrats, plow forward.  Joining me now is a Republican supporter of that resolution, Congressman George Radanovich of California.  Congressman, thanks for coming on.  
REP. GEORGE RADANOVICH ®, CALIFORNIA:  Tucker, good to be here, thanks.  
CARLSON:  Now this seems like a moral statement, almost a kind of moral preening or exhibitionism.  It may be right, but it seems to be playing out against our own interests internationally.  Why are we doing this?  
RADANOVICH:  Tucker, the genocide happened in 1950.  It‘s historical record that it was genocide.  And what I would do is put to you that when Hitler began to invade Poland in 1939, when people raised objections about public reaction to what he was doing, he said who raised objections to the massacre of the Armenians in Turkey?  And I think the important point to note is that genocide has existed throughout the beginning of the last century, all the way up until now.  
Had people stood up then, things like the holocaust may not have happened and we‘d have a stronger reaction in Darfur of what‘s going on there today.  
CARLSON:  You may be right.  I‘m not claiming that it wasn‘t genocide.  Frankly, it sounds like genocide to me.  I‘m not taking the Turk‘s side in this.  I‘m merely saying it‘s over.  We can‘t undo it.  And Hitler, by the way, died in 1945.  That‘s over, too.  It may feel good to describe it as genocide.  Here‘s the flip side; it infuriates the Turks.  We need access to their airspace, to their border crossing, to their military bases.  We may lose those things if we call it genocide.  So why don‘t we just—I mean, why are we doing this?  It is hurting us.  
RADANOVICH:  In some ways we‘re doing this to benefit the Turks.  They themselves want to become a member of the European Union.  And they‘re being turned down for the lack of recognition of some of their—the things that they do in their country.  One of the reasons, Tucker, is because they failed to recognize a genocide that didn‘t happen by the current Turkish government, but by an old Ottoman empire almost 90 years ago.  
In many ways we‘re doing Turkey a favor because they want to be a part of the west.  
CARLSON:  Oh, come on, Congressman.  
RADANOVICH:  Let me finish.  We‘re doing this as a favor, in some ways, to Turkey because they want to be a part of the west.  
CARLSON:  OK, but this is the kind of favor that, you know, you don‘t want done for you.  They hate this.  It‘s humiliating to them.  They‘re our friends.  We need them as our friends.  We‘re sticking our finger in their eye and you know it.  And we‘re doing it because there are a lot of Armenians in this country that are still mad.  I understand why they are still mad.  
This is interest group politics.  They‘re pushing American politicians to do something to address a historical wrong, but it‘s hurting America.  
RADANOVICH:  Well, Tucker, what I will say is that we occupy their base at Incirlik, which would be in northeast Turkey right now.  The American ambassador said we need Turkey.  Turkey needs us there as much as we need to be there, number one.  
And number two, the Turkish government is not going to be doing anything to resent this.  This is a resolution by the House.  This is the House opinion on what occurred 90 years ago in a different country.  The Turks should not take this personally.  It was the Ottoman empire. 
CARLSON:  Just because we‘re accusing them of genocide, but don‘t take it personally.  I guess my bottom line question is what does this have to do with us?  OK, this is something that took place in Europe two generations ago.  Why—why are we getting involved in this?  Don‘t we have enough problems?  
RADANOVICH:  Because I think the—genocide is such a scourge on humanity that we ought to be confronting anywhere in the world to try to prevent it from ever happening again, in the Holocaust, in World War II, in Cambodia, in Darfur today.  The world needs to stand up and say, we can‘t allow this kind of stuff to go on in a civilized world.  And I think it‘s important to recognize it during the times that it happened, much the way that Congress recognized the Japanese comfort woman and the situation that happened back then.  
CARLSON:  If the Turks—very quickly, if the Turkish parliament or the Turkish people voted on a referendum to condemn America‘s treatment of American Indians and called it genocide, I think you and I and every other American would say, hey, pal, buzz off.  You know what I mean?  I personally had nothing to do with that.  Why are you criticizing us?  That‘s an attack on us.  Why wouldn‘t they take it the same way?  
RADANOVICH:  You know what I would do, Tucker, is recognize that that country as a sovereign country has a right to debate those issues and recognize those things around the world.  I mean, I would not see a problem if Turkey debated and passed a resolution like that.  And you know what, we wouldn‘t be pulling out of Incirlik if they did that.  
CARLSON:  Well, that‘s because we‘re not insecure because we‘re the most powerful country in the world.  But other countries look at us—we make them feel insecure and they take what we say personally.  And you know that to be true.  
Here‘s the bottom line.  Nobody who is responsible for those killings in Turkey is still alive.  So why are we attacking people—basically we‘re attacking a country in which the culprits are already gone.  Why don‘t we just leave it alone?  
RADANOVICH:  Well, what I would tell you, Tucker, is that Turkey is acclimated toward the west and they want to be a part of the European Community.  This issue is keeping it from happening.  They need to address it.  They need to not take it personally.  It‘s the old Ottoman empire.  They need to put it behind them.  I mean, these things don‘t go away just because people are dead.  
CARLSON:  Wait a second.  If it‘s the old Ottoman empire, then why does it have current relevance?  I mean, you‘re already saying that—
RADANOVICH:  Ask the Turks that.  Ask the Turks that.  
CARLSON:  I thought we condemn this every April anyway.  Congress under pressure from the Armenian lobby condemns these killings every April and has for some time, if I understand that correctly.  
RADANOVICH:  Not as genocide, Tucker.  But what I will say is the Turkish government spends millions and millions of dollars to erase the record so that it will never get recognized as genocide.  The world community itself has already recognized that this is a genocide.  And god bless Turkey, but they‘re trying to erase it from their past and pretend like it never happened.  And that makes the problem more urgent to recognize.  
CARLSON:  All right.  Congressman, you are certainly a vigorous and articulate proponent of your point of view.  And I appreciate you coming on.  
RADANOVICH:  Tucker, take care.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jedet72 (talk • contribs) 13:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WHAT A WONDERFUL NONSENCE 

message: Why are we discussing things that happened a century ago??I am a Turk and I have lots of friends who are Armenian.We shouldn't care things like this.Come on!--Okar--
:So - let me try to clarify what you are saying - your position is that everything over 100 years ago or that happened over 100 years ago should be forgotten. Is this it? Or are you saying that we might remember - but we shouldn't care? Live for today sort of thing...Your position is rather unclear I have to say. Not that it matters much really - as I (and others) obviously feel differently - and certainly unless you expalian why your position should be taken up by all I really can't imagine anyone doing anything but ignoring or ridiculing such. My guess is that you probably haven't a clue of what it is we are even discussing here...or perhaps you do but wish to avoid the shame of it or you are ashamed and don't wish to be reminded or perhaps you are callous and just don't care? Or maybe you are hyper nationalistic and just can't stand the thought that any Turks or group of Turks may have done wrong - if even in the past..and your statement is more of a diversion. Though perhaps you really just don't know anything (like you imply)...and have no wish to know...and can't understand why others would care to know or value that they do. If this is the case can I ask you - just why are you consulting an Encyclopedia in the first place? And why did you click on or search for the subject - Armenian Genocide? (if it is such an ancient thing to you...though perhaps it is not ancient - perhaps it is still occuring today eh? maybe that is why you and other's care...ever think of that?) But if it is your position that you don't care - why bother? Well some of us do care - can you at least respect that? ...even if you don't understand why we might? Ask one of your many Armenian friends...perhaps they will enlighten you at least why they might care...--THOTH 23:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well let me perhaps enlighten you on the message of the previous anon, maybe you can learn something from this? The message is the following: If you want to dwell and get stuck in the past, please be my guest, you will be the only loser around (although I believe that point has already been reached). Like Thomas Friedman said in his latest book: those countries that dwell in the past and cling to memories will remain backwards whilst those that look ahead and embrace the future and the flattening of the world will enjoy tremendous progress! 81.213.178.166 06:20, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I should explain why I said that. What will you gain when you convince the others? Do you think I don't care people who are dead. I am full with respect to them. But arguing about this subject won't bring anything but forgetting it will help your friendship with the others.I am not ashamed because I think there is nothing to be ashamed of. I believe that Armenians killed Turks and Turks killed Armenians. This is an ashame that we are killing each other. How many Turk friends you have? You will understand me when you get Turkish friends.--Okar--
The question "Why are we discussing things ..." is quite out of place here.  This is a page for discussing how to improve a specific Wikipedia article.
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia.  Encyclopedias discuss all sorts of things, and how long ago they happened isn't relevant.  Among other things, an encyclopedia documents human culture -- all of it, good and bad.  The goal is to provide comprehensive information -- for the whole human community.  No page, including this one, is aimed only at Turks and Armenians, and Wikipedia is expressly not intended as a forum for political debates and nationalistic squabbling.  WP articles are intended to inform, not to produce shame. The nationality and ethnicity of WP contributors and their friends is irrelevant.  Personally,
I think it's shameful the way people abuse Wikipedia and ignore its purpose
and policies.  Please see The five pillars of Wikipedia -- Jibal 09:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ???

message: http://www.genocidewatch.org/TurkishPMIAGSOpenLetterreArmenia6-13-05.htm
From above - "We represent the major body of scholars who study  genocide in North America and Europe. We are concerned that in  calling for an impartial  study of the Armenian Genocide  you may not be fully aware of the  extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention.  We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is the overwhelming opinion of scholars who study genocide: hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades. The scholarly evidence reveals the following: On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens – an unarmed Christian minority population. More than a million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture, and forced death marches. The rest of the Armenian population fled into permanent exile. Thus an ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years. The Armenian Genocide was the most well-known human rights issue of its time and was reported regularly in newspapers across the United States and Europe. The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey’s wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary,  by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship." --THOTH 02:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lutherian, please don't laugh, if you think you are in a circus in Istambul, then think about it as a circus of horror and clowns are actually butchers killing live people like YOU only Armenians on the arena and if dying there in a bath of blood still looks like fun to you then I suggest you count how many Turks were killed during world war II and make party about it with cola and hot dogs. Have Fun! Steelmate (talk) 15:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  THOTH style 

message: Louise Nalbandian, The Armenian Revolutionary Movement, Berkeley 1963 p 168
The programme of the Dashnaksutiun Party (Armenian Revolutionary Federation) was drafted during the General Congress in 1892. The methods to be used by the revolutionary bands organized by the Party were as follows: a. To propagandize for the principles of the Dashnaksutiun and its objectives based on an understanding of, and in sympathy with, the revolutionary work. b. To organize fighting bands, to work with them with regard to the above-mentioned issues and to prepare them for activity. c. To use every means, by word and deed, to arouse the revolutionary activity and spirit of the people. d. To use every means to arm the people. e. To organize revolutionary committees and establish strong links between them. f. To stimulate fighting and to terrorize government officials, informers, traitors, usurers and every kind of exploiter. g. To organize financial districts. h. To protect the peaceful people and the inhabitants against attacks by brigands. i. To establish communications for the transportation of men and arms. j. To expose government establishments to looting and destruction 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all this proclamation of the Dashnaks occurred in 1892 and a great deal had changed between then and 1915. It is widely accepted and was observed that the Dashnaks ceased anti-Ottoman Government activities with the CUP revolution of 1908 and the re-establishment of the constitution with Dashnak participation in the Parliament and alliance with the CUP…so this declaration has nothing to do with events of the Armenian Genocide. Still – let us examine it a bit and consider the circumstances of such a declaration. In 1878 the Treaty of Berlin, agreed to by the Ottomans, contained provisions for protection of Christian minorities within the Ottoman Empire. While Sultan Hamid chose to ignore these provisions – and in fact the record is that these spurred greater atrocities, depravations and massacres – the Treaty did establish that in fact the Christian minorities were being mistreated and that reform was needed. The Dashnaks, like other Armenian political parties – and in fact other political parties such as the Young Ottomans and the Young Turks – all agitated for reform and acted against the Ottoman Government which was rightly seen as corrupt, repressive and detrimental to the Empire and to the rights and living standards of all its citizens. The Dashnaks were opposed to the repressive measures being taken against Armenians and the Sultan’s abrogation of the Tanzimat reforms and were seeking additional foreign attention to these facts and to the plight of Armenians – and no wonder as the Ottoman Government under Sultan Hamid - had already proven incapable of needed reform – in fact quite the opposite – they were regressionary and reactive in the worst way. No where are the Dashnaks calling for the establishment of a separate Armenian State – their (called for) actions are a desperate attempt to stimulate progress towards betterment of the Armenian lot within the Ottoman Empire – and I don’t think anyone can argue that such was not justified or needed. While one may question the range of methods that they advocated – when one considers the great deprivations and massacres that Armenians endured – and these being part and partial to Official Ottoman Government policy – we can see that the Dashnak targets where squarely against Government functions and functionaries – and their call for “revolutionary spirit” parallels that of other political groups in the Empire opposed to the bloody reign of the Sultan – including the CUP.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: This is the comment of Sykes the British head of their Near East office concerning excesses of some Armenian revolutionaries at some point (unidentified in the text) prior to WWI. However I would argue that much of his commentary is unsupportable speculation – particularly concerning motives of some of the actors – much like he was (falsely) convinced that the Young Turk movement was nothing more then a Jewish plot (and that the Young Turks were all Jews – in fact Fromkin in his Peace to End all Peace - comments numerous times how clueless Sykes was concerning what was occurring within the Ottoman government and empire jut in general). But OK - no one will argue that certain young and idealistic Armenians may have taken their anti-government actions too far – this did certainly happen. However, when one looks at the record of Ottoman Government atrocities committed against Armenians during and prior to this period it is of no surprise that some Armenians acted violently in response as well – and who could really blame them? In Syke’s last sentence – which I think is notable - Sykes correctly points out (IMO) that these activities are likely to not meet with success “to secure equality before law and the maintenance of security and peace in the countries partly inhabited by Armenians” and I think most Armenians – including many who were themselves terrorized by the “gangs” that arose and were active in this period (late 1890s) felt similarly. However one cannot damn the entire Armenian race for the actions of a few “revolutionaries” (Though ultimately, in a sense, this is exactly what the Turks did – even though – by 1908 – these activities had largely died down. This is not to say that there were no Armenian “gangs” or vigilantes or what have you in the countryside during these later times – as there certainly were. There was a great deal of lawlessness in the East from a variety of groups – most notably the Kurds and among recent Muslim immigrants. And the poor economic conditions spurred all sorts of bandits and outlaws. Armenians themselves called upon the Turkish Government for assistance against both Kurdish and Armenian bandits who harassed their villages. If the activities of such could be construed as a justification for Genocide then one could certainly make a case for the Ottomans genociding the Kurds during these times – or the Russians committing genocide against their Turkish minorities as theses groups were demonsratably far more seditious and far more violently active against both governmental assets and civilians of their respective nations.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: This is a bit of speculation and second hand assertion of what some “revolutionaries” might have said or what their aims might have been - I think of dubious value. And even if we say they are true for arguments sake – again my argument above addresses this – and can we still say that the complete destruction of over one million individuals can be justified as revenge against the actions of a few – no matter how deplorable? And one should consider this - "Surely a few Armenians aided and abetted our enemy, and a few Armenian Deputies committed crimes against the Turkish nation... it is incumbent upon a government to pursue the guilty ones. Unfortunately, our wartime leaders, imbued with a spirit of brigandage, carried out the law of deportation in a manner that could surpass the proclivities of the most bloodthirsty bandits. They decided to exterminate the Armenians, and they did exterminate them." Mustafa Arif - Ottoman Minister of Interior (after Talat) - 13 December 1918 --THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Unfortunately, there is no context to these comments that would allow them to be of any value or for them to be commented on. It is not even clear who or what he is talking about.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Again – these comments seem highly opinionated and seem unduly negative and of dubious value for a variety of reasons. It would seem to me that he has developed some negative impressions through some specific contacts that rubbed him the wrong way and then he projects and speculates where I doubt he really has sufficient information to do so. Again – this is 1894 (ie it has nothing directly to do with the Armenian Genocide)…and in fact while he has claimed to not have seen any terror he does admit that there has been repression and that it is in response to Armenian calls for reform. And the fact that he claims to have traveled around during this period – but seems to have seen no terror against the Armenians – during a period where at least 100,000 Armenians and perhaps as many as 300,000 Armenians were killed and more driven from their homes leads me to seriously question both this man’s objectively as well as the truth of his claims in general.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Now this commentary is really telling – though doubtlessly not in the way it was intended by the poster. We note that as early as 1907 the CUP and the Dashnaks had an agreement where the Dashnaks would help the Turks in fermenting an uprising in the Caucuses against the Russian Government. This also revels that the Turks were in fact fermenting just such a revolt – already in August of 1914 – prior to declaration of war against the Russians! So we see that the CUP felt as though the Dashnaks would remain loyal to them –as they had been in the years since 1907. In fact the Dashnaks -  for all of their miscalculation in various periods – made the right call here. The Dasnaks correctly felt that the citizens of each nation should maintain their national loyalties. That some Ottoman Armenians who had been subject to massacre and other deprivations over the prior few generations might choose to cast their lot with their Russian brethren in hope for relief from Ottoman oppression should be no surprise. The fact that a great many ethnic Turks from within Russian territory did the same in reverse is also no surprise (as the Turkish efforts to ferment such were far more active then the reverse –and we can also see that they even hoped to stir up the Armenians on their behalf! As for Ottoman Armenian men in general – well they like other Ottoman men – were conscripted into Ottoman service. And in fact Armenians had served loyally in Ottoman Armies as recently as the Bulgarian campaign of 1912 – so the loyalty of Ottoman Armenians – as a group – was really not in question. It was both the CUP paranoia – knowing their own plans in the Caucuses for fermenting ethnic revolt against the Russians – more so then any mass Ottoman Armenian desertion (which was in fact far less then the level of Arab and Kurdish desertions) or Ottoman Armenian sedition (which likewise was incredibly minor) and even more so – the existence of  CUP Pan-Turkic designs which excluded Armenians from their vision of a future Ottoman Empire – these factors – more then any real Armenian sedition – are what drove the CUP to act against the Armenians. In fact – the CUP representative to the Dashnak party Congress in 1914 – was Dr Shakir – who was already at work with the Special Organization massacring Armenians – and was the very organization that was fermenting unrest among Turks in the Caucuses and even further East. Shakir had a number of the Armenians from the Congress ambushed and killed after the meeting and it appears he already had plans to betray them.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: We’ve already addressed the context of these comments which were intended to discredit the Dashnaks. That being said – considering the environment where the Sultan and Kurds and such had long preyed upon Ottoman Armenians and refused to aid them and do the things a government might be expected to do to protect its citizens…isn’t it any wonder why some might hope for relief against this oppressive regime? However – even with that being said – the majority of Ottoman Armenians saw themselves just as that – Ottoman Citizens – its all they had known for generations – and in fact many Armenians were very well integrated into Ottoman life. These Armenians had no interest in being ruled by Russia and in general many Armenians were highly suspicious of Russian intentions in regards to them and the region.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: This individual was obviously not aware of what sparked the resistance in Van and seems to also pretty much accept the Turkish propaganda at the time concerning Armenians lock stock and barrel. He obviously is relying on the Turkish position so really is not dealing with actual facts or a proper (full) understanding of events, actions and motivations.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The Jews were very well treated for hundreds of years in Germany…my my what could have caused the Germans to hate them so? A quote from a member of Parliament? Are you serious? Have you heard of some of the uniformed BS these types often pontificate about? Come now…--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: This quote concerns British pledges made to Armenians 1917-18. OK. By 1917 there were no Armenians in the Ottoman Empire aside from the communities in Constantinople and Smyrna and some Armenians working for the German Baghdad railroad. So again this has no real bearing on the Armenian Genocide which was primarily enacted in 1915/16. These are just words – British promises – OK – I fail to see their relevance.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Bronsart was a German who was correctly accused of involvement in and encouragement of atrocities against Armenians. He was well entrenched in the Ottoman High Command during the war and he directly participated in actions against Armenians working for the Baghdad railroad. He was known to be highly anti-Armenian and pr-Turk and made these comments in an attempt to clear himself of charges of committing atrocities against Armenians. Enough said really. These comments have zero credibility – they are a direct repetition of already discredited Turkish propaganda charges against the Armenians that were already rejected by Germans (in confidential correspondences) and all others. In fact there is quite a bit of documentation (from other German sources) of Bronsart’s fanaticism against the Armenians in an attempt on his part to ingratiate himself with the Turks during the war. 
General comments on the above quotes…rather pathetic really – opinions (and pretty much just that) from dubious sources and most often considering periods of time either before the Genocide or after– none of which directly addresses issues concerned with the Armenian Genocide itself. The quotes I provided in a prior section do directly address the issue of Turkish complicity in the Armenian Genocide and the reasons for it and are considered scholarly sources which clearly establish the pertinent facts of the Armenian Genocide. While I have long advocated inclusion of the prior political environment and history – including the role of Armenian political parties and various issues associated with such – and agree that the current article is deficient in this regard – it is even more deficient in its lack of explanatory passages concerning the role and plans of the radicalized Young Turk party – their Pan-Turkism, their anti-Armenian bigotry, their zeal to eliminate ethnic and political rivals and their secret party apparatus which established control over the Empire and carried out a campaign to exterminate the Armenians under cover of war. As the quotes I provided above allude to – and as is proven with eyewitness accounts by the thousands and proven scholarship – this is the real and proven history – and nothing you have posted here – or could ever post here (if based upon fact) can counter these truths.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Thoth, looks like you shot yourself in the foot, LOL lutherian 07:21, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

text: heresay...at best the ravings of one individual...proves nothing...the proof is 1.5 Million Armenians killed and no Armenian Nation lefin Anatolia...any Turkish crying about Turks killed by Armenians when the Turkish denial of the Armenian Genocide - 1.5 million killed - is just ludicrous. There is no Armenian corrallarly to what the Turks did to the Armenians.--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah...so? Thousands of Jews joined various armies in the fight against Germany in WW2 - does this justify the Holocaust?--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: When was this? Who is this? I am not familiar. However I would be very interested in knowing the numbers of Turks living in Bitlis after these times as compared to the number of Armenians. Enough said. --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: This is 1918...revenge attacks...I think we already said that these occured (again this is post Armenain Genocide and is the actions of individuals - not a government) - interesting that the report says that the victims were entirely men...so women and children were sparred it seems...doesn't this violate some manifest that you posted earlier? --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The point or relevance here? Should we make posts concerning the supposed racial psychology of the Turk? --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: ...yes and not religious personages...who should just but out. BTW - historians have clearly spoken on this issue...--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: An obviously politically motiated statement of some kind (if even a true one and not just fabricated) that is also obviously false. Ca anyne really say thst the Armenian Genocide - the killing of hundreds of thousands of women and children - by most brutal means - was in any way justifiable as a response against "Armenian oraganizations" who were disorderly or rebellious? (particualrly when it can be easily proven that the Dashnaks were in league with the CUP since at least 1907 and had ceased all counter government activities.) Would the USA have been justified in genocideing its black population because cerrtain black groups (such as the Black panthers) were "inciting disorders and rebellions" - can any human being actually believe this? --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Nice statement - but funny it has no corralarly with reality. There was no Armenian rebellion in Anatolia during WW1 - none whatsoever. What is true is that the CUP used the cover of war to enable it to exterminate its Armenian population. --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Ah the revolutionary fever and idealism of political party newspaper writers....another justification for Genocide I assume - "Insulting Turkishness" or some such? --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: 1917. Perhaps I would have added to crush the Turks out of exsistence - depending on what I had witnessed during the years prior - and the losses among my family...--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Again the revolutionary zeal (primarily of those safely sitting in cushioned chairs far from the conflict)...so is the Armenian Genocide to be justified based on the words of idealisitc youth who weren't even Ottoman Armenians? And considering the massacres and mistreatment of Armenians within the Ottoman EMpire (culminating in total domestic genocide) who could blame Armenians (of the diaspora) for wanting to free their lands and people from the Turks. Get real. --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: see above. BTW - this same statment could be made concerning Jews volunteering for Allied Armies in WW2 and who formed into parisan units to resist the Nazis - so are you saying that this justifies the Holocaust? Again though it should be considered that (if true) this is a political speech with the intention of garnering support...--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: ? This refers to what? (1895?) - and he is refering to "stories" he has heard...and then states that these stories have no cooraboration...--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Is that so?...well if Turks believe this then why are they always bringing up the red herring that all Armenians are after is land and monetary compensation from Turkey...seems a bit of a disconnect here..--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Somehow this guy is either blind or highly biased to make such an obviously false statement...anyway again this concerns 1896...though we already know that the Europeans had acted on behalf of the Armenains pushing the Sultan for reforms....what would the need be for "reforms" if there were no abuses occuring? We know this history - one quote - does not change reality as known by historians.--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thoth you were the one whining that those rejecting the genocide thesis dont provide any proof to support their case and instead spend the whole time attacking you. Well the anon above bothered to provide ample proof contradicting the genocide claims and just as I had predicted, you dismissed them using the silliest of arguments. When a witness contradicts the genocide claims, in your eyes he is a fake or paid by the government or whatever your vivid imagination produces. When the witness supports the genocide claim he is divine or sacred. This foolish reasoning of yours is exactly what has led to the tensions on this site, it will get you nowhere and FYI all the proof that you produce in my opinion and believe me, in those of many others belongs to the deep and very smelly end of the rubbish heap! lutherian 18:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not a single quote provided does anything whatsoever to refute the fact of the Armenian Genocide nor what is known and accepted by historians concerning it. In fact - very little of what was posted has anything directly to do with the Genocide whatsoever. You spek of witnesses and denying witness testimony - well there are thousands and thousands of pages of such testimony in the archives of Germany, USA and other nations...yet all you Turks do is deny them. You offer a few opinion pieces from dubious sources concening events not directly related to the Genocide and you claim to have countered the facts of the Armenian Genocide...hardly.--THOTH 21:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  THOTH style meets its match - not quite... 

message: In a 2005 interview Berktay clearly states that what occured to the Armenians was without question a Genocide. He admitted that he had long been reluctant to use that word due to its political implications and automatic response by Turkey (and likely out of worry for being prosecuted or otherwise attacked etc) - however he has come to believe it is an accurate and the only accurate depiction of events. While Bektay does discuss the fact that various Muslims/Turks were killed and massacred in various times and places - and even by Armenians - mostly after the period of the Genocide - he also very strongly states that the killings of Armenians by the Ottoman Government cannot be counterbalanced or equated with the sporadic killings by various ethnic gangs (non-government entities) and that the numbers as well are entirely incomparable. Here is an interview from 2000 where he discusses some fo these issues (with some of my comments in parentheses).
`Armenians were killed by a special organization' 
An interview with Turkish historian Halil Berktay
regarding the Armenian Genocide; 
Translated from Turkish exclusively for ANN/Groong 
Originally published in "Radikal" newspaper on October 9, 2000
Turkish original available on internet at http://www.radikal.com/tr/2000/10/09/insan/erm.shtml 
At that time there were 1 million and 750 thousand Armenians living in Eastern Anatolia. (my note - this figure is for Eastern Anatolia only - not Anatolia/Ottoman Empire at large) The deportation order issued by the ruling military triumvirate was drawn up so as to include all the Armenians in the region, without exception. These things are documented in writing. There was no mention of massacres or slaughter. The provincial governors and garrison commanders were directed to deport the Armenians to the region south of Turkey's current borders. However, it's clear that, in addition to these official orders, separate, non-written orders were given to the most rapacious members of the `Teskilat-i Mahsusa' (`Special Organization'), who worshipped violence and were not bound by adherence to any normal moral code. 
For the Armenians to be killed? 
Yes. Historian Taner Akcam has demonstrated this in a very sound way. There was on the one hand a legal decision and implementation, and on the other another mechanism entirely that proceeded in an illegal manner. 
How many Armenians died during the deportations? 
At least 600 thousand.
How did they die? Who killed them? 
Those who issued these orders had them carried out via a special organization, the Teskilat-i Mahsusa.. Think of it as a combination of the forces involved in the recent Susurluk scandal and the Turkish Hizballah organization. It is clear that Bahaettin Sakir, who operated as the Teskilat-i Mahsusa's man for Enver, Cemal, and Talat, set up death squads in
the region. Some of these people were convicted criminals who were saved from the gallows and released from prison just to carry out such activities.. Do you know what types of people carried out these crimes? It was the equivalent of today's `Yesil', Abdullah Catli, and the Turkish Hizballah organization. The whole affair is that simple and clear. Bahaittin was just like today's `Yesil' or Catli. In addition to them, Turkish and Kurdish tribes also attacked the convoys of Armenians being deported. In addition to these actual massacres, there were the terrible losses caused by the deportations carred out in appalling conditions of deprivation. Everywhere in the Western world, there are photographs of these incidents which we can't bear to look at. The first time I encountered these visual records, I cried and could hardly breathe for several minutes. They are no different from the images of the concentration camps, or the massacres in Africa. For there are huge numbers of people in these pictures
. 
Well, didn't the Ottoman state try and punish those officials found guilty
of the deaths of Armenians? 
Of course. These massacres were not the work of the regular Ottoman army and bureaucracy. Historically, in such situations, the regular army and bureaucracy hate and despise those `special teams' and gangs that carry out
such deeds. We can see that the Ottoman army and bureaucracy understood just how terrible a thing this was , that they were repelled at the `special teams' set up independently of the governors and garrison commanders, and
that there were even governors and commanders who issued an arrest order for Enver and Talat's man Bahaettin Sakir in 1915-16 and tried to capture him. 
Did the Ottoman leaders make any statements to defend themselves? 
The Ottoman regular army and state bureaucracy, both as a result of the repugnance it felt toward these events and in order to clear themselves before the rest of the world, tried as best it could to capture, try, and punish those responsible for this disaster. And there were definitely those who were punished. After the end of the war in 1918 and the Ottoman defeat and subsequent flight of Enver, Cemal, and Talat, who were the primary ones responsible, the parliament (Meclis-i Mebusan) established an investigatory commission just for this purpose. There was later a military trial in
Istanbul. This was a famous trial. Books on it have been published in English and Turkish. 
What were the losses of the Muslim population in that area during this same
period? 
They may be 10,000 or 20,000. (ny note: elsewhere i have seen him say "no more then 10,000) But it's not a question of `They only killed a few, and the Ottomans killed a lot'. The issue is as follows: The activities of the Armenian guerrilla bands were generally localized, small-scale, and isolated. But for hundreds of thousands to die, there would have to be a population of this size, which couldn't be attained merely by wandering around the villages and hamlets. In addition, it's deceptive to turn the matter into a question as to whether or not Enver and Talat Pasha gave a written order to the `Yesil' or Catli of the day. They never did so, and no such document will ever be found. In this regard, the witnesses of the day are extremely important. There is a huge body of eyewitness accounts and visual material concerning the Armenian incidents that never reaches the Turkish public. Turkish public opinion is essentially ignorant of what the people of Germany, England, France, and America see and read.--THOTH 01:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry - Armenians were an ethno-religious group within the Ottoman Empire that had no means of protection but was preyed upon by its own government. The CUP/Ottoman government instigated a campaign to exterminate these people and carried this plan out. This is what the history shows. There was no Armenian rebellion nor any serious 5th column or other activity that directly preceeded the Genocide that could in any way be used to justify such. There is no question of an international court as the plantiffs and defendents are no longer alive...what we are discussing here is a matter of history and the history is well proven. (and what happened to "let historians decide eh?" That didn't work so now its "let international courts decide" - is this the Turkish government position? Is the government of Turkey ready to be the defendent? If not then who is to be the defendent eh?) All of your efforts here and elsewhere to deny such are just that DENIAL of known Genocide - just as those who deny the Holocaust - using essentially the exact same arguments as you have - you are perpetrators of the crime and deserve no recognition whatsoever. I find it funny that you and Luther here try to claim Armenians as a beligerent because of some idealisitc writings in some newspaper...just like Nazi sympathizers who claim that because it was published that Jews declared war on Germany in 1933 that Hitler was justifyied in his actins agaunst the Jews - that the Jews started it etc - don't believe me -http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/jdecwar.html - yeah so you are in good company. And for you to claim that the intent of mass extermination cannot be proven is the biggest laugh of all...such things as the erradication of an entire people in the space of less then 2 years cannot be something accidental - and the eyewitnesses of the time prove that not only was it not just a byproduct of some failed policy - but that the admitted intentions of those involved was extermination of the Armenians - this has been shown time and time again. There is no question of intent - intent has been thoroughly established. --THOTH 21:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: it seems you dont know law terms in this case and it seems that you dont know much how int law works. As you should know Turkey has signed all documents regarding international law. So if you go and sue Turkey there is no option for Turkey but to attend. This is possible believe me just recently a Turkish citizen sued france (ah the bearer of the brave Armenian legion de lorient) for its crimes in Gaziantep. So we will se what happens. I will not lecture you about law. In a court you will se many defences and all of them are quite the same. A killer and an innocent persons says the same thing "i did no do it" So please cut that 7 (or I dont know how many) ways to denial nonsense.
Historical studies are essential to render understandable the incidents that took place in the second decade of the 20th century. However if a historian lacks education and/or experience in international law, that person cannot judge whether or not these incidents amounted to genocide. Like historians academics such as sociologists and political scientists who laboured on these issues, tend to describe as genocide almost any incident, which involves an important number of dead. However genocide as an international crime, can be determined only by jurists on the basis of the prescribed legal criteria. 
and what happened to "let historians decide eh?". Let me tell you what happened Historians are harrased, stalked, booed, attacked and bombed by armenians so that not many decent people are left to study. 
Any way i repeat it if you are so sure it is universally and inevitably accepted go to the court and sue. Turkey has no option but to defend.neurobio 22:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Berktay - Armenians killed by a Special organization 

message: This website why removes at external links? I want answer.--Tall Armenian Tale 22:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tall Armenian Tale 

message: :Moved from Talk:Armenian Genocide
Looks like the usual band of Armenian suspects (and their devoted admirers) are back in business, turning this topic into a circus. Tsk tsk! lutherian 11:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see one of the prominant members of the band of suspects is already busy in a revert war! Tsk tsk! lutherian 12:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Usual band of Armenian suspects?" -- Clevelander 12:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  yeah, with your greek orthodox sidekick, right? lutherian 12:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: U made that comment, lutherian, before i make any of my reverts... U knew in advance that your edit would be reverted, that's why u accused (in advance) anyone who would possible revert... I'm sorry, but keep your POV for yourself... (btw, don't say 'greek orthodox' as if it is an insult... LOOL) --Hectorian 12:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  not at all, I added stuff that had been deleted without any comments and out of the blue you guys come in and without any explanation reinstate the deletions. I dont know what your definition of civility is, but your attitude does not even come close lutherian 12:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

text: ...and you would consider saying "gosh im sooooo scared that I need to take a dump this instant" to be civil? -- Clevelander 13:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree that my reply is not civil, but who started the fire? lutherian 14:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You did. -- Clevelander 14:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  progpaganda back on track 

message: :Moved from Talk:Armenian Genocide
Armenian-American keyboardist Derek Sherinian collaborated with duduk master Djivan Gasparyan on the song "Prelude To Battle", which Sherinian "dedicated to his great grandmother who fought the Turks in the Armenian genocide" as part of his 2006 CD "Blood of the Snake".
Thank you.
Tvccs 06:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gee, i can just picture a super granny fighting ottoman soldiers, LOL.  Good thing there werent many of these grannys, they could have very well led the turks to extinction, LOL. lutherian 06:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My great-grandfather was a victim of the Armenian Genocide.  He was also apolitical and worked in the textile industry, yet when Turkish gendarmes invaded his village, they nearly beat him to death.  Needless to say, he did not deserve the beating he received.  He would have died had my grandmother not thrown her body over his and screamed so as to get the attention of other people living in the area. -- Clevelander 23:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No doubt lots of innocent persons died in that period but to go from there and accuse Turks of orchestrating a genocide is stretching it. I see that prejudice and hostility towards islam is alive and well, have you heard the present day nazi pope's remarks? lutherian 05:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I will trust a muslim Arab or Iranian source on the AG 100000 time smore than Christian British source. Religion had nopthing to do with the Armenian Genocide nor anything modern related to it. Btw, the Pope didn't say anything factually incorrect.--Eupator 11:57, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My friend and I were just talking about that, actually. —Khoikhoi 05:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text:  The question is: why in this time of extreme sensitivity, quote the debasing words of a 14th century christian emperor? Is it to, as he suggests, forge better inter religious relations? Who is he kidding? Even an idiot would understand that this is plain and simple provocation. Its reckless comments like this that has caused death and destruction throughout history. And since this world is full of idiots that have a natural affinity towards provoking, the cylce just repeats itself. Also your statement that he didnt say anything factually incorrect is also provocation. lutherian 12:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Go grab a tissue and wipe those tears. Better relations cannot be forged by historical revisionism, which you are trying to accomplish in the name of extreme sensitivity. To hell with that. Islam was spread beyond the Arabian peninsula by a scimitar and that is a fact, the Crusades were a retaliatory consequence. This is offtopic and has nothing to do with the AG.--Eupator 13:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  there you go again with your superiority complex rethoric. Beggers cant be choosers, you should know that better than anyone else! lutherian 15:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're suffering from an inferiority complex (rightfully so might I add), why not cease begging to join the "Christian club"? You are part of Oriental culture stick with it, but feel free to continue selling doner kebabs and watermelons to the natives of the "Christian club".--Eupator 17:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  and you dare deny that you are a racist? lutherian 23:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As usual when you're set straight in your place you resort to ad-hominem insults. Keep up the good work, after all that's been your only contribution since you joined wikipedia.--Eupator 00:08, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Insults? You just made denigrating racist remarks and you are accusing me of insults? Do you suffer from selective memory? lutherian 05:35, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Did u hear what the turkish minister (director, or whatever) of religious affairs said about what the Pope said? We also know that Christianity is wrong, but we do not use bad language against Jesus... adding that the Pope should cancel his trip to Turkey, which is on November to meet the Ecumenical Patriarch. they said last year that "he is not welcomed" in Turkey. again this year they more or less tell him not to go there... is this 'religious tolerance'? Hectorian 13:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  you dare talk of religious tolerance with your christian club? The difference is your extreme hypocrisy, you supposedly preach tolerance but in reality its the other way round lutherian 15:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  FYI - Comment added at request of Artist to "art" section  

message: :Moved from Talk:Armenian Genocide
Gunduz Aktan in TDN lutherian 12:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not too far away, when the Turks finally come to their senses and realize that they have no place in a xenophobic club. Actually, the status quo should remain a bit longer so that Turkey benefits more from the structural reforms. In 15 or 20 years when the European health care and pension systems collapse under the weight of the ageing population, it will be time for Turkey to jump the boat. At that point we will probably see hoards of unemployed Europeans looking for jobs in Turkey, LOL. lutherian 13:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems like science fiction... (or maybe indeed is!) Hectorian 13:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well 15 to 20 yrs is a lifetime, take Greece as an example, not more than 10 yrs ago it was in the middle ages. You can change anything if you have lots of loot lutherian 13:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually that was three millenia ago: Greek Dark Ages. Please check your math as it's off by a few zero's, and even then they accomplished more than certain countries in their Golden Ages.--Eupator 18:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I was actually using a euphemism for the sorry state of greece in the 80's but it seems that you actually took it literally, tsk tsk lutherian 05:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry state? lol... Eupator is right, these were the Greek Dark Ages... But if u wanna find even Darker Ages in history of Greece, look at the years 1453-1821. Regards Hectorian 08:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

text: we saved you from military coup... why this ungratefullness. :))) ha ha.neurobio 10:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I did, be sure about it... Hectorian 12:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  my thoughts exactly... 

message: :Moved from Talk:Armenian Genocide
http://english.sabah.com.tr/3105A05C...FD0468E8A.html
"Orhan spoke falsely
Nobel winner Orhan Pamuk's mother, Şekure Basman, has commented on her son's controversial words after 1.5 years: "He spoke falsely."
Orhan Pamuk's mother, Şekure Basman, has commented on Pamuk's words; "1 million Armenian and 30,000 Kurds were killed." Şekure Basman said: "Orhan spoke falsely to a small European Newspaper. However, the Turkish press exaggerated his false statement. The government tried to cover it up, but the press scooped it up."
"My son said false things" 
Orhan Pamuk's mother has commented on her son's words regarding the death of 1 million Armenians on Turkish land: "Orhan spoke falsely."
Şekure Basman has given an interview to SABAH Newspaper, as the mother of the first Turk to have ever received a Nobel Prize. Şekure Basman said: "I am very happy for my son but when I heard he won a Nobel Prize, I thought 'God knows what they will write about him this time...'. Orhan probably knew false things about history. I don't think he has much information about the subject. No one teaches these things in school. I myself have no idea about this issue. Orhan spoke falsely to a reporter from a small Swedish newspaper. However, the Turkish press overexaggerated his statements. Although the government tried to cover it up, the Turkish press scooped it up and took great pleasure from doing so. I think it is the press we should blame." 
 
In spite of his mother's disaproval I congratulate Turkish writer Pamuk - who in spite of his aparently false notions concerning history...and in spite of his (self admittadly and comically ignorant) Mother's disaproval - has won the Nobel prize for literature this year. Turks should be delighted that the Nobel prize committe overlooked Pamuk's obvious ignorance and mistatements concerning historical issues (that no one speaks about or teaches in Turkey...) and instead aparently only chose to bestow the award based on the merit of his work alone....lol   --THOTH 18:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The only reason why Pamuk won the nobel prize this year was for his controversial remarks and everyone knows that. The only reason you congatulate him is again because of those remarks (you probably wouldnt even have known he existed if it wasnt for those remarks). I have read his books, they are brilliant and I appreciate him for his talents, not the BS political trash that has elevated him to the stratosphere. lutherian 05:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orham Pamuk's mother calls him a liar - lol 

message: :Moved from Talk:Armenian Genocide
Note: Taken from ASALA Info page
:ASALA is  NOT  an active organization at this time, since it has served its purpose of raising awareness of the Armenian Cause.
:“We find the information of the existence of the offices of ASALA in Armenia and Nagorni Karabakh currently to be inaccurate.”
:ASALA (Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia)
:The Orly Group 3rd October Organization 
:Description
:Armenian group formed in 1975 with stated intention to compel the Turkish Government to acknowledge publicly its alleged responsibility for the deaths of 1.5 million Armenians in 1915, pay reparations, and cede territory for an Armenian homeland. 
:Activities
:Initial bombing and assassination attacks directed against Turkish targets. Later attacked French and Swiss targets to force release of imprisoned comrades. Made several minor bombing attacks against  airline offices in Western Europe in early 1980S. Bombing of Turkish airline counter at Orly Airport in Paris in 1983--eight killed and 55 wounded--led to split in group over rationale for causing indiscriminate casualties. Suffering from internal schisms, group has been relatively inactive over past four years, although recently claimed an unsuccessful attack on Turkish Ambassador to Hungary.
:...
Terrorism as a weapon for dictating thoughts. Good way, really works!
Obsteel 13:28, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ASALA  

message: It is easy to setup many photographs from archives whic taken by some unknown people.I am a Kurdish and I have live evidences. My relations also have been killed by Aremenian rebels at same time.May father was born at 1907 at Sarikamis. At 1915 early spring Armenian has attacked their willage and killed one paralyzed and his old aunt which is could not run. This example has been repeated by my old father till he died. This example shows how much Armenian was out of rules. The tragedy is bilateral and initiated by Armenian. Why Armenian not sueing France or Russia. The Russian was occupied the eastern Turkey while 1877-1878 Ottoman-Russo war and Armenian was the Russian alliens. They was equipped and armed by Russian and promised the independant greate Armenia. The Armenian was uprised and was out ruled.There was World War I and environment was quite unappropriate for living.There was lack of food and infectional dissaes and harsh living conditions.
In these conditions some new non experianced Ottoman Pashas was issued some laws (Techir Law) which is not applicable. Because it was proven that Ottoman army was also unable to transport the power and maintain the law enforcement. Enver Pasha tried to move third armay from Erzurum to Sarikamis at 3'rd December 1914 till 5'th Jan-1915. The result was tragedia and 96.000 of 156.000 soldier has dided because of diseases ,cold and  stavration. They was defeated without facing Russians. The fact is that if you can't transport your army at such short distance how you transfer Armenian in even worse conditions? Unfortunately tragedia repeated itself. Turks can't apply systematic genocides and holocust,their character is not sound for this. I accept many Armenian was suffered but you also might accept Armenian was not so innocent as the example I give you initially. I don't want to explain what torture has been applied these two relations but any one can't kill anybody in such conditions and age. Amenians commited many killing scenarios in Kars and Erzurum willages.
The Armenian should sueing Russia and France. Because these two of Armenian alliances has left them suddenly and without remedy. They were supported and uprised by these countries and left alone by these countries. If they were not cause this now all Armenias were living in Turkey borders like other minorities.
This conflict should be left to historian ,they should study the case and clarify the case. Politic could not decide about it because their business is getting more votes and make profitable business.Turkish history could not be judged in any country parliment. Should be judged by historian.
By Muhittin Karakurt
:The images are tooken by well known people such as Armin wegner, who witnessed the tragedy, no one cares about the photos there just there to show how the Armenians suffered, whether it was a genocide or massacre the turks owe us a apology we have yet to receive anything this shows how disgraceful the Turkish government can be. Nareklm 22:14, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian Genocide is a Lie 

message: Today(22 dec) is anniversary of Sarıkamis. 90.000 Turkish solder had been tranfered to Kars to save Turkish citizens from Russian and Armenians. All of those solders had died. Weather was snowy and very cold. They got frozen. They had to walk on foot through Sarıkamıs (a very snowy valley), because it was urgent duty (Urgent duty because armenians were killing defendless turks :( ). Unfortunately this walk had been their end. I will not do comments about this artical because there will be no change.. I tried before and nothing changes. They copy paste some strange and very long assays from some books to me. Assay like some English man reported this, some Greek reported that. Why these English guys didn't report killed turks. Is it because they are English?
This is frankly outrageous. 
 Armenian women and kids, Christians, were killing defenseless Turkish savages in the uniform! 
Now, I thought that there might be a place for Turkey in the EU - until I found THIS discussion. I never realized that the genocide of Armenians committed by the Turk, well-documented, photographed, talked about by everyone event, part of works of speeches by everyone of any repute or disrepute, from Winston Churchill to Adolf Hitler, with survivors and their grandchildren of the genocide scattered throughout the world now living in every European and American city - from St. Petersburg in Russia to San Francisco in America, so I never realized that this, a documented historic fact, is a subject for any debate.
:This is relevant to the article by any chance? I removed one of your sentences for WP:NPA. Try not to say things like "bloodthirsty genociders and their descendants".Baristarim 00:44, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Today Anniversary of Sarıkamis 

message: The facts & the question:
- We would need a 4km2 land and have to dig 2 meter deep to hide the 1,500,000 corpses.
- It would take 1 year to do the job with 100 modern excavators.
- I don't want to calculate the time, shovels and manpower needed to do the job.
- Incineration is not an option with the 1915 technology. Moreover, I don't want to mention the calorific input value (fuel) needed to do the job.
- In the light of the above facts, where are the mass graves of these 1,500,000 people that are said to be massacred by bloodthirsty Turks?
Waiting for objective answers. Do not post some undependable news portal or forum links please.--85.96.104.205 16:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Where are the 6 million jews? so you deny the Jewish holocaust? Nareklm 22:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Where are the mass graves? they are kept dugged well in Turkey's land. Whenever one is found, the Turkish gov steps in and makes sure it doesnt exist. [] Chaldean 00:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

text: You want more sources? here ,  look at those pictures, there rotten bones most are probably camouflage in dirt, i hope you don't expect a living person to pop out of the sand. Nareklm 21:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also many Armenians were forced out of there homes to the Syrian desert thousands, there not all in turkey its going to take centuries to find all of them. Nareklm 21:31, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes you can only belive and think about the stiation. nomore.. (user:onur)
The number of muslims died that I mention was for WW1 + Turkish War of Independence. To me, marching people to south in summer time of 1915 during a terrible war can not be considered as a genocide. Yet, some of those people were uprising against Ottoman Empire, killing muslims etc. So, we can not basically say that nobody was harmed from both sides. Can we? I don't think that you really believe that 1.5million Armenians were killed by 100s by 100s. It would make 15,000 different locations. Wow! Are you aware what this number means? Do you know how many villages in Turkey? Moreover, cameras were not so rare as you think in those days. If there were any noticeable view, I'm sure that it would be photographed no matter from which side. Terrible things happened to both sides. This is for sure. But both were not genocide.81.215.112.174 15:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I dont think in Bosnia , Bosniaks people killed 500.000 Serbians. But Armenians killed 500.000 Turks by fighting behind us.. Your examples doesn't macth at all..even I dont remember Jew killed 500.00 German.
P.S. I don't think think I have to remind you that the entire area of the massacres was under Ottoman control. It goes without saying that they would not have taken photos of their own victims, nor would have allowed photogaphers of enemy nations to view massacre sites. 
The Myotis 02:44, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  massacres was under control of French army and Russian army or Ottoman? 
Do not post entries unrelated to this topic please. Instead, you are free to start your own topic. Thank you. 85.96.36.116 18:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where are the mass graves? 

message: ::The websites are neat, it's so cool that Turkey has its own website!  Good job guys, maybe now you can get in the EU!  
::I tend to prefer primary documentation for my history though, as collected by American eyewitnesses (not Armenians or Kurds or Turks).  How much arguing and questioning until these contemporary American newspaper articles are made to disappear?
:SAYS EXTINCTION MENACES ARMENIA; Dr. Gabriel Tells of More Than 450,000 Killed in Recent Massacres. 600,000 DRIVEN INTO EXILE Unless Neutral Powers Intervene, Says Nubar Pasha, Almost the Whole People Is Doomed.September 24, 1915, New York Times. 
:500,000 ARMENIANS SAID TO HAVE PERISHED; Washington Asked to Stop Slaughter of Christians by Turks and KurdsSeptember 25, 1915, New York Times. 
:TALES OF ARMENIAN HORRORS CONFIRMED; Committee on Athrocities Says 500,000 Victims Have Suffered Already. NATIONAL PROTEST URGEDSeptember 27, 1915, New York Times. 
:TELL OF HORRORS DONE IN ARMENIA; Report of Eminent Americans Says They Are Unequaled in a Thousand Years. TURKISH RECORD OUTDONE A Policy of Extermination Put in Effect Against a Helpless People.October 4, 1915, New York Times. 
:800,000 ARMENIANS COUNTED DESTROYED; Viscount Bryce Tells House of Lords That Is the Probable Number of Turks' Victims. October 7, 1915, New York Times. 
:SPARE ARMENIANS, POPE ASKS SULTAN; Following Report from Constantinople, Benedict XV. October 11, 1915, New York Times. 
:MORGENTHUA URGES AID FOR ARMENIANS; Ambassador Appeals to Americans to Save Them from Annihilation.May 15, 1916, New York Times. 
:SLAUGHTER IN ARMENIAAugust 6, 1916, Washington Post. 
::Difficult to make Turkey look any more guilty... I didn't even know there were any Armenians left in Turkey until you people did what you do and made Mr. Dink so famous.  Or maybe he's still alive, it's an elaborate hoax, because I don't have any pictures of his bones?  Or he was planning an uprising, yeah a revolution, to destroy the government with treason and terror and eating Turkish babies?  An Armenian Lobby™ CONSPIRACY to DOMINATE the world with the Russians, so they can eat all the babies together, invent genocides, and kill themselves just to frame the noble Turks?
::What's all this about "TOTALLY didn't kill 1 point 5 million Armenians, like, gosh!"  What, 500,000 murders would give you some kind of higher moral ground?  Word?
::Now you're not guilty of murder by any means.  That's fine, it's history, you don't inherit crimes you haven't yourself perpetrated or endorsed.  Problem is, your creepy nationalism makes you hold yourself accountable; see how that works?  You've got this conflicted guilt thing, where you're personally proud of a past that you yourself didn't actually participate in, so you're in turn perceiving yourself persecuted by the guilt you insist on inheriting.
::It's not your guilt.  It's not your fault.  But your nationalism is offensive to my Western sensibilities; and your ignorance and indignation are magnificently entertaining.
Bernard Lewis (born May 31, 1916, London) is the Cleveland E. Dodge Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University. He specializes in the history of Islam and the interaction between Islam and the West and is especially famous for his works on the history of the Ottoman Empire.
Lewis is one of the most widely read scholars of the Middle East, whose advice is frequently sought by policymakers.
In a November 1993 Le Monde interview, Lewis said that the Ottoman Turks’ killing of up to 1.5 million Armenians in 1915 was not "genocide", but the "brutal byproduct of war". A Parisian court interpreted his remarks as a denial of the Armenian Genocide and on June 21, 1995 fined him one franc. Since then Lewis has stated "There is no evidence of a decision to massacre. On the contrary, there is considerable evidence of attempt to prevent it, which were not very successful. Yes there were tremendous massacres, the numbers are very uncertain but a million may well be likely," arguing that "the issue is not whether the massacres happened or not, but rather if these massacres were as a result of a deliberate preconceived decision of the Turkish government," and that "there is no evidence for such a decision." He thus believes that "to make Armenian Genocide, a parallel with the holocaust in Germany" is "rather absurd.85.101.61.3 17:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cultural learnings for make benefit glorious Turkey 

message: I have never seen such horrifying images besides that of the Jewish Holocaust. Slowly starving a person to death is a cruel way to kill a person. The Turkish Government, whether it is Genocide or not, must officially recognise their crimes against humanity and apologize for the suffering they have caused to the Armenian people. Germany has apologized to the Jews, I say it is required of a modern nation to take in to thought of their crimes, and apologize. Odst 05:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: first of all you are stupid because you compare us with germans..
I think what British ethnographer William Ramsay is not so much relevant neither for the armenian genocide nor for the status of the armenians in ottoman empire. He can only describe what he saw during late 19th century. At that time ottoman empire was quite an oppresive regime for all minorities in the empire beacuse of the fear of disintegration, thats true, but that doesnt reflect exactly centuries long ottoman rule of Armenians..User:Laertes d|laertes d]] 19:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  My god.... 

message: WIKIPEDIA PUBLISHING SUCH ARTICLES WHICH ARE COMPLETELY POLITICAL AND HAVE NO RELATION TO THE TRUTH OF THE ACTUAL EVENTS IS AMAZING. THIS ARTICLE HAS OBVIOUSLY BEEN PUBLISHED BY ARMENIANS AND THEREFORE CAN IN NO WAY BE NEUTRAL AND OBJECTIVE INFORMATION. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.102.28.11 (talk • contribs) 
Why can't Armenians have neutral point of view? Automatically they are liars? Sir, you are a racist!
:Than don't read it. ROOB323 05:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article seems to describe the truth, inasmuch as I can confirm by reading through western media accounts.  Please review the citations, as this article is consistent with American media accounts of the era; I understand that the Turkish educational system contests American, French, British, and other accounts of the tragedies, but nonetheless it's inaccurate to characterize the New York Times circa 1915 as "Armenians".  If you find anything problematic, bring the problem to the Talk page, engage the people here in a friendly manner, and please help to improve the entry--I know this entry in particular requires a lot of work, as it is often the target of vandals.  If you can refrain from future outbursts, I'm confident you would succeed in working alongside people of all ethnicities in articulating a balanced, legitimately referenced, honest chronicle of these events.DBaba 05:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

text: In what year was Bristol's letter written?  In what context?  I believe I'm seeing it was written 6 years after the massacres?  Please, try to be even-handed; Bristol does't even seem to be addressing the events of 1915.DBaba 18:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment 

message: This comment might go unheeded by some, but please do not post comments along the lines "this is all a balooney" or "Turks are butchers" - please try to concentrate on how it effects the article. eg "I think that in the X paragraph in Y section it should be included that Z, A, B call this a balloney for Q, W reasons", or "maybe we should reorganize C and D sections to concentrate on the fact Turks are butchers per P, R and S" :) Obviously I am exaggerating to make a point, but let's at least try to keep a correlation between the talk page and the article, no matter what viewpoint we are presenting. People are free to speak their minds of course, but it is just an advice... Baristarim 10:46, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well he did suggest a specific replacement for text. Otherwise however along the same lines...as "the usual"...--THOTH 14:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The usual 

message: This is the conclusions I've reached from my research of both sides of this issue. TRY TO BE MORE OBJECTIVE BY REVIEWING ALL SIDES OF THIS ISSUE.
The Ottoman Empire was engaged in a war against Russia. Most Armenians, mainly the Armenian rebels sided with the Russians in the hopes that they would gain independence and grab a large part of the Ottoman Empire and name it Armenia. The Armenians attacked Ottoman supply routes, since many of the Armenian Rebels were behind the Ottoman front lines, they provided a lot of aid to the Russians in the military effort. Not all Armenians wanted to do this, but a lot of them wanted independence. The Armenian rebels also attacked civilian villages that had a lot of Turks or Kurds. When other villages would discover such events and atrocities, they would seek revenge. This started an endless cycle of vengeance, which quickly escalated into a large civil war. Hundreds of thousands of Armenians, Kurds, and Turks died. Some people, especially Armenian propagandists who are still trying to change history, claim it as a genocide, for money, land, and the chance to fine the Turkish Government. However, it is not a genocide, because if you actually traveled to the areas where the fighting had occurred, many villagers will tell you how many of their ancestors died. In fact, the population of Muslims and Armenians dropped significantly in the area. Armenian propagandists, like to ignore the Muslim casualties, claiming that only Armenians died, and they make constant comparisons to the Holocaust. However, in Germany, there was direct orders, documentation, and physical evidence of genocide. In the Ottoman Empire, there is not a single archive that hints at ordering mass killings of any ethnic group. The only references were to the Armenian relocation in 1915, where Ottoman commanders order their soldiers to move those populations under protection of Ottoman soldiers. When the Ottoman Empire decided that the only way to stop the Armenian rebels was to relocate the Armenian populations in the troublesome areas, so that the civil war will stop and the Ottomans can continue fighting the Russians without Armenian rebel interference which caused a great amount of toll on the Ottoman military effort. This is what many historians that have done their research other than some Armenian scholars agree upon. Some people will refuse to believe this, because it's easier to believe that Muslims in a Muslim land, killed Christians, and cannot dare believe that the opposite could happen. Well for those of you skeptics out there, you will be surprised to learn that, the West did for a time believe that the Ottomans were committing atrocities! So what did they do? The British when they captured Istanbul, tried many Ottoman officials, commanders, and government leaders, that they believed were responsible. Despite all the search, by Armenians and the Western scholars, they came up short, because they thought that the Ottomans ordered mass killings. The trial was called the Malta Tribunals. Despite all the efforts, the Ottomans were found innocent and released, because there was just no evidence of a genocide or any atrocities committed by the Ottoman government or their officials that were in-charge at the time. So if they were tried and found innocent so many years ago, why are Armenian propagandists still bringing it up again? The Ottoman Empire was never guilty of genocide, so please, do the research before you start arguing based on what you've heard or read in some propagandist book. Look at all sides of the issue instead of just the Armenian side. If you want to be unbiased and objective in your view, for once read the pro-Turkish side, and compare it with the Armenian side. Then use logic and evidence to decide and draw conclusions. If anything read a few pages of this website: The Other side of the Falsified Genocide. It is pro-Turkish, but it is well documented, and for once be enlightened by OTHER points of view. You don't have to believe it if you don't want, but at least read it and learn what the other side has to say about the issue. I reviewed both sides of the issue, and I just told you the conclusion and data that I have researched. Executex 02:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - fiction is easier then fact. BTW - who were the judges at the Malta Tribunals? Who were the prosecuting autornies? What about defense? And where are the transcripts fo the trials? What about the official verdicts? etc etc I'm curious...haven't been able to find anything at all n them - outside of some Turkish produced/propogated heresay...--THOTH 20:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A more objective view 

message: I searched again and again. Why even there is not any reference to the Turkish loses? Hundreds of thousands of Turkish soldiers and civillians were killed by Armenian bandits, especially in the east part of Anataolia. Armenian loses were the result of the Great War!!! Not forget! The Ottoman Empire was fighting against major powers of the West,Russia, the Great Britain, France, Italy, Greece... Reflect the conditions of the time more objectively. Take a look how many Armenians were fighting against the Turks?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.255.88.121 (talk) 06:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: False, try again. Armenian "bandits" did not and could not have killed "Hundreds of thousands of Turkish soldiers and civillians" - only in twisted Turkish fairy tales. --THOTH 20:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commenting 

message: If no Armenains had been killed on 1914-1918, but only they were moved to south of Ottoman Empire (for example,if the government had used airplanes for transportation, no Armenians had been killed, as my question is a fantasy), would you also call it as GENOCIDE?. I think, Armenians can call transportation of Armenians out of their homelands as genocide even if there were no killings. For thousands of years they were here, but now their civilization disappeared in Anatolia. (The last sentence is Mr. Dink's idea.) [This example came to my mind when I was thinking about Kırım Tatars.]Ayasi 00:02, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that would be called deportation. And actually that is what "terminologically" happened to the Crimean Tatars. Though half of them perished en-route. Ombudsee 11:52, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: My fantasy question?

message: And I ask what would happen if the Armenians did not rebel on Ottoman Empire at their backs by provokations of Imperial forces? What would happen if the Turks ands Armenians lived along and died side by side in the war against those Imperial forces for their homeland. Armenians would live and have a bigger country in the East of Asia Minor right now. That's the answer. In 1915 there were 15 armanian delegates in the Ottoman Parliament. Ottomans referred Armenians as "brother race". There were marriages between the Armenian and Turkish people. Armenians lived under Ottoman rule in peace for over 500 years. One must consider that beforehand. Hrant Dink is the wisest of all Armenians. I have great respect for the man. He sought peace not hate and that last sentence you refer to is also a self criticism for Armenians. Also I want a logical answer for this. Genocides, throughout the history, were done by governments at the peak of their power. Why would you want to wipe out a nation you lived, married even had representators in your parliament? If you are to do that, why would Ottoman Empire wait for its collapse? --Valmont 19:00, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I was going to write the same exact thing The Myotis just did. And the disolving of the Ottoman Empire was the main reason behind 1915. Ombudsee 07:41, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Re:My fantasy question?

message: This article is nothing but slander. The article does not contain any Turkish Thesis. The style of the writer is not neutral. Newspaper news and war-time propaganda books can not be an evidence. 
Today Turkish archives are open and Turkey proposed foundation of commission composed of historians. However, Armenia and its diaspora do not open her archives and do not accept the commission composed of historians. This article is not scientific but politic.
for more info:
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/index.html and http://www.genocidereality.com/default2.asp and 
http://www.tetedeturc.com/home/spip.php?rubrique2 and http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/ and for some of the fake so-called Armenian Genocide documents: http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/forgeries.htm
and 
http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/forgeries.html
and http://www.tsk.mil.tr/uluslararasi/ermenisorunu.htm
news about a middle age European court:
http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-3-9/52623.html
and also:
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com
and here is a documentary( The names of the scholars and the archive number of the documents are given):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCmg7AdM1tU&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6YJwHR8aXw&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7Q77jAaIhk&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr0kWla0UFs&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_p7lh2m8Vw&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEg7lAv4kq4&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J6KjxKhVKk&mode=related&search=
And another one which tells Armenian Revolt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55dk_0H6w-o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYceOG-Ckwg&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkHKJ-NVviQ&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_53qAWAcaM&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajw4uPZUWI0&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvZFJOukNKI&mode=related&search=
In the article photo of some bones were titled as the bones of Armenian victims. However the owner of the bones is unknown. What is the proof that that bones belong to Armenians? Here, in this video you can see one of the mass graves of Turks. Scholars from foreign countries were there when it was found. In those graves Koran pieces and other objects belong to Turkish people were found. Read the subtitles very carefully and watch the video carefully. The old people are telling how Armenian gangs killed civil Turks when their males are in the war front:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qForZRFT9M  and 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1k_9jAxWy0
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.122.113.165 (talk • contribs) 
You think youtube is a valid source for any information? This does not even deserve a comment.The Myotis 03:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Those websites are horrible give us real references, and Tallarmeniantale is the most bias Armenian site out there. Artaxiad 14:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Lets see now - what had just happened (1894/95) - 1 in 10 Armenians in the Ottoman Empire were slaughtered. And what occureed afterward (in 1915) - perhaps 3/4 of all Armenians in the Ottoman Empire were viciously slaughtered. So I'd say that the Patriarch's statement is not nly quite understandable - but accurate in every sense of the word. Can this really be disputed? BTW I don't see anywhere where he says - "oh by the way lets kill all of the Turks" - however considering what the Turks did to the Armenians - just prior to and shortly after this time - I don't think anyone could blame him if he were to have said such a thing.--THOTH 14:28, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: "Official" history...always the best kind...indisputably I might add...--THOTH 19:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah, imagine those Germans in WWII - Fighting millions of Russians, French, British and Americans on mutiple fronts - with a great many more troops and materials commited to war/combat then ever the Ottomans managed in WWI - I guess - just like the lazy and incompitant Ottomans - its just impossible that they could have spared the effort and resources to slaughter 6 million (primarily Jewish) undesirables - rounding a great many of them up from far of places....etc etc...yeah, you're convincing me with your brilliant logic - I'm thinking it was just too difficult - no way it could have been possible - didn't happen - never - in fact Jews obviously just made it all up to get after the Germans - just like the Armenians are doing - witnesses - bahh - paid stooges all - Turk haters - And Armenians - they must number in the what now - 8-10 million you might think - spread out all over Anatolia - its just a land grab against the Turks...yeah - thats the ticket...--THOTH 21:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: What you are asking cannot be done with justice briefly. It is quite complex - obviously it is not an event the like of which happens all the time - that one group is driven to attempt to exterminate another (on such a scale). I don't think that (reason for/rational for) the Holocaust is so simple as you portray either. And in fact the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide share a great many similarities in regards to the relationship between the majority group (that ultimatly perpetrated the atrocities and their justifications for such) and the minority group (who were the victims) -- as well as many other similarities in undertaking of the genocides themselves (though also many differewnces as well - as each were unique - though highly similar events). I will attempt to at least outline some areas which need to be understood to really understand why these genocides occured. To understand why both of these genocides occured we must consider a number of things - first, we have to understand the relevant recent history of the nations/empire where the genocides occured (Germany and the Ottoman Empire) and understand what was occuring externally - vis a vis foreign powers and wars of the recent past and the role of and resentments against these foreign powers by the ruling elite of the perpetrator nations (in response to recent provocation and feelings of ongoing beseigement). Secondly, we must understand the (evolving) roles and circumstance of the minority group within the perpetrating nation/empire and understand why (and how) the majority group grew to resent their particular minority groups (and supress them) - and why at these particular junctions in time such majority-minority relations evolved into extreme violence. Third, we must understand that each nation - Germany and Turkey - were nations that had undergone a very recent revolution - where the revolutionary parties that came to power represented very radical and non-mainstream/non-traditional elements of the ruling majority. Each of these radical parties - the Nazis and the CUP had violent influences and had key members who held hightly racially centered views. Each party felt that they were the salvation of the nation - the necessary salvation - and both parties continued to be revolutionary - in that they actively saught to supress and eliminate percieved (internal) enemies. Additionally each party saught to reclaim past glories and each party scapegoated the minorities for blame for currentr troubles. Lastly of course (and again this is the briefest of lists that is not entirely adequate) we hgave to be aware that both Germany and the Ottoman Empire (under the direction of the revolutionary party elites) willingly entered into aggressive world wars with the aim of taking territories and recliaming past glories. And in each case a major secondary aim of these wars was to allow the majority party/people to act violently against hated minorities in a manner beyond what they were able to do in peacetime. Of course there are a mirad of related issues and circumstance that need to be brought out to do each situation justice (and to better understand the unique nature of each genocide). Of course each majority group attempted to make a case against their minorities as being seditious and in league with enemies etc. Whether these charges were true or not (and basically they were not - at least to the degree/extent charged - the perceptions were certainly held - particularly by party loyalists in each case and to a lesser extent - but still prevelant - by significant members of the najority populations themselves. And certainly foreign powers had their roles in agitating the perpetrator nations - but do we blame the British and French for the inequities of the Versailles treaty for driving the Germans to start WWII and for enacting the Holocaust against the Jews?--THOTH 01:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  SLANDER 

message: A document worth reading about Armenian-Turkish Conflict. 
http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~dwilson/Armenia/justin.html
Tiasb 13:56, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunatly this account is filled with a bit too much (unsupportable) fiction and suffers from an extreme case of ommission of important material (concerning Ottoman persecutions and misrule and attempts to disenfranchise Armenians from their own lands, history of predation upon Armenians by Turks and Kurds and it completely ignores the unsavory nature of the CUP and the fact of their crimes - which of course include the fact that they perpetrated a deliberate and preplanned genocide against the Armenians of Anatolia - and this fact was well witnessed and documented). And does he really expect us to believe the myth of Ottoman benevolence/tolerance? And his attempt to blame the Armenians - specifically regarding Sarikamish - and just in general - is rather absurd. Again - if there had been an Armenian "revolt" during WWI the Germans would have reported it and publicised it mightily - and they did no such thing. Nearly everything asserted by McCarthy in this article is unsupportable assumptions - a good story - that does not hold up when the facts are examined. McCarthy's pathetic attempts to just blame everything on Armenian Nationalist boguymen just doesn't hold up. It may play well to the Turkish audience but it just doesn't fly when one really knows the facts. McCarthy is really not a serious scholar of this period (this has been well shown by others - and in one case through a direct encounter between himself and Prof Marshalian in which McCarthy was forced to admit the falicy of many of his claims). He is mostly just a propogandist. I don't even think he believes most of what he spouts. --THOTH 01:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I have read every book written by McCarthy (that I know to exist). I understand his arguments and what he is basing them on. I am able to know and understand the accuracy and relevancy of McCarthy's points because I have read a great deal more then just McCarthy. Additionally I am familiar with much of the material he bases his claims on and also understand his methodology (or lack therof). While much of what he presents concerning trials and tribulations of various Muslims within the Ottoman Empire, within its former territories and in other areas (primarily Russia) has some validity even this is extremely one sided and only presents a partial picture of these events. (however I don't totally disagree with much of what he presents here). However when it comes to his portrayal of the Armenians and events and circumstances surounding Armenians his manipulations and misrepresentations become clear. In this regard he is not at all a proper historian. Sure he is better then a Weems or such - but that is not saying much - and in fact that we can make the comparison is not a good thinkg for McCarthy. No one disputes that some Armenians took up arms and actively fought against the Ottoman Empire (but consider as well that the CUP did the same and in fact the CUP and the Dashnaks in particular had an alliance through much of the period prior to 1915.) However when one looks at the actual violence commited by various Armenians in the period from the 1870s to 1915 what one finds is that most of what can be seen has been on the part of Armenians who are Russian citizens fighting in Russian armies. The amount of actual activity by Ottoman Armenians - revolutionaries or shat not - is in fact rather minimal in the scheme of things - particularly considering the far greater amount of somehwat similar violence and much greater predation occuring by various Kurdish groups and Turks - much of which was in fact part of an Ottoman state sponsored terror campaign against the Armenian population of Anatolia...and what wasn't state sponsored was State ignored/allowed and deliberatly so - despite repeated Armenian protestations for the Ottoman state to act on their behelf and protect them. Do I really need to go into the details of all of this that I am talking about here? (that in fact is compleatly ignored by McCarthy who instead pushes the fiction that Armenians just spontaniously started revolting and killing Turks for no reason). And in fact there was no Armenian "revolt" or revolution - just never happened. There were isolated instances of revolt - but each of these requires specific examination and consideration (and I don't discount that in some cases these were fermented by Armenian "revolutionaries" and such - but more often these were desperate attempts to avoid slaughter or to respond to extrme Turkish provocation. Mcarthy does not treat the history at all acuratly - and deliberatly so. He is an ultimate apologist for the Ottoman government (even the CUP) - that even Ataturk had nothing but disdain for and who knew that its corruption and failures were unsalvageable and were what led to disaster for the Empire and its inhabitants. And in the end the bottom line is that the Armenians were Ottoman citizens who were preyed upon by their own government - for purly political, ethnic and religious reasons (because they were different) and ulitmatly the CUP led Ottoman government planned and carried out a genocide against them. This is what occured. No amount of attempts to justify and switch blame can possibly represent truth - because such is untruth at its core. We can discuss all sorts of specifics and even failures and misdeeds of various Armenians throughout this period - but the bottom line is that none of these things can be justification for what was done to the Ottoman Armenians. And no claim of rebellion or civil war can be valid - because it does not reflect the truth. McCarthy in this is a schister - a purveor of untruth - a propogandist who attmpts to make a great case out of what can be seen as a conspiracy theory level of speculation that does not hold together when one knows the facts. One cannot exptrapolate to his conclusions - to reach the position he (and the current Turkish government) now takes to justify or ignore (as McCarthy conviently does pretty much in its entirety) the fact that it was the Armenians who are the clear victims here - who were preyed upon and ultimatly destroyed - that any conflict between peoples was perpetrated by the Turks and was unequal in every possible way (to the detriment of the Armenians). McCarthy just very conviently ignores the overwhelming facts and presents his tidbits as somehow conterveiling to such when they are not in any sense. So bottom line McCarthy is a complete and utter fraud as an objective historian - embarasingly so for any in the know. --THOTH 15:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

text: So I supose you have something of substance to add? Do you? If you do then do so - otherwise who is wasting whose time here...--THOTH 15:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I dont really have much to add but I do find your long lecture like remarks very tiring to read, I am just suggesting that you be a bit more concise so that ordinary persons like myself can actually follow your argument. I mean it takes you a couple of sentances to make a point that is obvious in the first sentance. Do you have a problem with that my friend? Amjikian 19:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said - if you have nothing of substance to add - why are you wasting our time. I can't be responsible for your lack of ability or inclination to read. In the meantime I don't feel as if simple answers are suficient. If you are able to answer the questions put forth or address the issues with simple answers then I suggest that you do so. BTW - good luck. And again, if you can't do better then I would suggest you keep your snide comments to yourself. And yes I do have a problem with your obvious attitude problem. --THOTH 00:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not realize that only those that contribute to the article are allowed to comment (or at least that is what I interpret from your remark), my intention is not to waste your time or anyone else's for that matter, I would be happy to contribute but I don't because, unlike others here, I do not claim to be an expert on the matter. I just made a casual observation and I notice that you are offended by it, but please understand that it is simply an observation, not an attack. I am sure that there are many here that would concur with this very observation. Amjikian 06:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course anyone can contribute - it is not for me or anyone else here to say who can or cannot do so - as long as they do so in such a manner that conforms to the protocols set down for doing such here - including refraining from personal attacks. It is obvious to me that your initial comment was not made with any constructive objective but just to denigrate my contributions here and to do so in a snide, smart-alecky and off the cuff way. It certainly comes accross to me as a personal attack and nothing more. I believe that I am making valuable and necessary contributions here and am doing such in an acceptable manner. If you have a problem with what I have written here perhaps you might have a specific recommendation to improve (the substance of) it or to say it better. As this is not the article proper I may not have taken the time to edit down to the most concise prose possible but I don't think I can be accused of making incoherent, irrelevant or innacurate points. If the prose is a bit verbose then I'm sorry but you will just have to live with it - or not if you choose not to read - but I daresay I have a problem and concern with people that possess attitiudes such as yours - who expect answers or insights into complicated issues but are seemingly unwilling to take the effort to process anything beyond a simple soundbite. Most sad IMO. Perhaps you should just stay away from written encyclopedias such as Wikepedia and related discussions alltogether and concentrate your limited time, energy and attention span on clips from YouTube or simple slogans that rhyme with something easy that you might be able to process and remember. However I can't say that I am happy that folks such as yourself think they are qualified to express their opinions on complicated matters when all they have been able to process and integrate into their intelectual pallet are simple soundbites and such. It is exactly people such as yourself that (certain) governments and special interests are able to manipulate so easily and who can be made to believe the lies and then repeat them back such with conviction because they lack the basis to know the real underlying truth. Most sad. So perhaps it is best that you don't contribute as it is highly doubtful you have anything really of substance to add to the discussions here or even less likely the article itself. In the meantime my advice to you - made with your best interests in mind - is that you do you best to take the effort - regardless of how difficult and painful it is to you - to learn and attempt to read and process complex information. It may save you someday. --THOTH 15:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

text: See? You did it again, you could have very well presented a big chunk of what you posted in a more concise manner. I also notice many instances of personal attacks in your message so I dont understand why you accuse me of PAs and then pull a 180 on me? I have visited several topics on wiki and the talk pages are usually concise and to the point, but here, its really something else and I am afraid that you seem to be the main culprit behind the 1000 word sentences. I also notice that you try to outdo youself each time, its absurd really. I did not come here to offend, it was an honest and truthful observation I made, I think that there would be a huge improvement if you cut down on the fat Amjikian 20:31, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well others seem to disagree - ie "Thank you for your comments, I think it is much better to discuss this way, rather than struggling desperately to convince; "You did" vs. "We didn't do" format. (88.247.29.238 09:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  McCarthy - historian or fraud? 

message: The Forgeries of Aram Andonian
In the First World War, the Ottoman Empire fought on the side of the Central powers-Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Bulgaria-against the Entente Powers-England, France and their allies.At least since that time, the Ottomans have been accused of a conscious policy of extermination towards their Armenian Minority. 
During the war, such accusations belonged to the standard repertoire of war propaganda, as used by all nations in all times.In the case of the Ottomans and their Turkish heirs, however, events took a more dramatic course than usual. 
The virulent attacks on Turkey did not let up.On the contrary, the Ottomans were soon being accused of massacre, and after the second world war the word became genocide.The intention here was obviously to darw a parallel between the fate of the Armenians in the turmoil of the First world war and Hitler's extermination policies towards the Jewish people. 
The basis for the accusations against Ottomans (and later against Turks) was a book written by Aram Andonian in 1920, The Memoirs of Naim Bey: Turkish Official Documents Relating to the Deportations and Massacres of Armenians-in French, Documents Officiels concernant les massacres arméniens.He published his book simultaneously in Paris, London, and Boston-in English, French, and Armenian.Ever since then, these "Documents" have formed the backbone and the basis of all Armenian accusations against the Ottomans and their Turkish heirs. 
Aram andonian claims to have met an Ottoman official by the name of Naim Bey in Aleppo, after the entry of the British.This official supposedly passed the papers with the death orders to Andonian.Without going any further into the serious differences between the French and English editions of those "Documents Officiels", it must be said that after having studied both editions it is no longer clear whether these are supposed to be the memoirs of Naim bey or of Aram Andonian. 
In the text of the English edition, there are altogether forty-eight "official Ottoman documents" scattered through the book.These are attributed to the following persons and institutions: 
Person/Organization Number of documents 
Minister of the Interior Talaat Pasha 30 
Director of the settelement Commission of Aleppo, Abdülahad Nuri Bey 8 
Governor of Aleppo, Abdülhalik Bey 3 
Committee of union and Progress 2 
Minister of War Enver Pasha 1 
Ministry of the Interior 1 
Governor of region Deirs es Zor, Zeki Bey 1 
Governor of the region Antep, Ahmet Bey 1 
Unknown 1 
Not at all these "documents" are complete.sometimes the date is missing, sometimes the serial number, occasionally both.All in all, exactly half are lacking in some way.The originals of the papers copied by Andonian were never seen.Photographs of fourteen "documents" appear in his books.When asked for the originals, he claimed they were lost.Not a single one of the documents reproduced bu Andonian can be found today.They were probably destroyed to make it more difficult to prove that they were forgeries.Andonian made so many mistakes in preparing the papers, however, that is impossible to prove with absolute certainty that they were forgeries, even without the originals. 
Wrong dates. 
The simplest, absolutely irrefutable proof of the forgery involves Andonian's incorrect use of calendar information.To give just one example, Andonian has the governor of Aleppo signing documents at a time when he had not yet been named to the post and was still living in Istanbul. 
Naturally, for his forgeries Andonian used the Rumi calendar, which was use in Ottoman Empire at the time.The Rumi(Roman) calendar of Ottomans was a special variation on the common islamic calendar, which takes the Hegira (Mohammed's flight from Mecca to Medina in 622 AD) as a starting point.Because it used lunar years, it was only necessary to subtract 584 years to convert from the Gregorian to the Rumi year.1987 A.D, for example would be 1403 on the Rumi calendar.There is another trick, however.In addition to the 584 years, one has also has to figure in a difference of thirteen days.Moreover, the Rumi calendar began on March 1.That meant that the last two months of the Rumi calendar (January and February) were already the first months of the Christian calendar. 
The correct date-according to the Christian calendar-for these last two months of the Rumi calendar is obtained by adding 584 plus one year.An example: January 5 of the year 1331(Rumi) corresponds to January 18, 1916.(1331+584+1+13 days) 
That, however, is still not all the tricks.As mentioned above, the Ottoman year always began on March 1.In February 1917, the difference of thirteen days between the Rumi and Gregorian calendars was eliminated in order to facilitate coversion.The difference of 584 years remained unchanged, however.Thus, February 16, 1332 (February 1917) suddenly became March 1, 1333(march 1, 1917 A.D.).At the same time, the year 1333(1917) was made into a year with onlt ten months, running from March1 to December 31. 
January 1, 1334 thus became January 1, 1918 A.D.(Note:the Turkish republic adopted the Gregorian calendar in 1925, so that the Rumi year 1341 became 1925 A.D.)These calendar technicilaties may seem ver complicated and uninteresting.They are, however, of tremendous importance in conncetion with The Forty Days of Musa Dagh and the forgeries of Aram Andonian, which at first fooled Franz Werfel. 
In considering the dating( and the sequential numbering) of the "Andonian papers" and the authentic documents, one must also keep in mind that numbering of the incoming and outgoing documents always began with March 1(1333 Rumi=1917 A.D.) and continued sequentially through February 28( the last day of the Rumi year).It was then "New year's" once again on March 1. 
In forging the most important of his "documents", which he called Number 1, Aram Andonian already committed a serious error.Here is the text of the most important part of this "document": 
Document No.1
"In the name of god, the Compassionate, the Merciful, To the delegate at Adana, Jemal Bey.
february 18, 1331The only force in turkey that is able to frusrate the political life of the Ittihad and Terakki(Committee of Union and Progress) is the Armenians.From news which has frequently been received lately from Cairo, we learnt that the Dashnaktstuin is preparing a decisive attack against the Jemiet."
After a short transition, the alleged "Document no 1" comes to following conclusion:
The Jemiet, unable to forget all old scores and past bitterness, full of hope for the future, has decided to annihilate all Armenians living in Turkey, without living a single one alive, and it has given the Government a wide scope with regard to this.Of course government will give the necessary injuctions about the necessary massacres of the Governors..."
After some further details, the "document" ends with an unreadable signature.
For the sake of completeness, is should also be mentioned that this key letter in Andonian's of documents is dated February 18, 1331(February 18, 1915) in the original French version of his book, but bears the date February 8, 1331(March 25, 1915) in the English version.The original Turkish text, however, clearly bears the date February 18, 1331.Let us recall:according to the rules of calendar conversion, February 18, 1331corresponds to March 2, 1916.(1919 was a leap year, so february had 29 days).It does not correspond to February 18, 1915, as in the french translation, nor to March 25, 1915, as in the English translation.In other words, Aram Andonian should have written 1330 instead of 1331 if he wanted to forge the correct date.A letter written on March 2, 1916 can hardly have brought about events that are supposed to have occured nine months earlier! 
Anyone who thinks that this might have just been an accident, a mistake on the official's part, will be set straight by "Document No.2" in Andonian's collection.The second letter in his collection should naturally have been dated Marc 25 1332(April 7, 1916), but in fact bears the date March 25, 1331.It is quite clear that the forger simply knew too little about the Ottoman calendar and overlooked these tricky details in converting.
The Turkish Historians Sinasi Orel and Sureyya Yuce published an extensive scientific work in 1983 concerning the forgeries of Aram Andonian.They follow up on all the details(there are hundreds) of the unsuccesfull forgeries.These range from dates and counterfeit signatures to transmogrified greetings such as "Bismillahs", which no Moslem would ever have dared to write. 
A particulary insidious section of the forged Andonian papers deals with the "broadening of the massacre"-in particular to include children.This section is brilliantly done from apsychological standpoint.One "document" of this type reads as follows: 
Document No.4
Deciphered copy of a ciphered telegram of the Ministry of the Interior
No.502, September 3, 1331(September 16, 1915)
"We recommend that the operations which have ordered you to make shall be first carried out on the men of the said people(the Armenians), and that you shall subject the women and children to them also.Appoint reliable officials for this.
The Minister of the Interior, Talaat
Note:
To Abdülhalad Nuri Bey, September 5.Have you met with the commandont of the gendarmerie?
the Governor, Mustafa Abdulhalik
Aside from the fact that the governor's signature is clearly(and crudely) forged, Andonian was sloppy and let another blunder slip through in composing the telegram.No "Governor Mustafa Abdülhalik" could possibly have had anything to do with an administrative act in Aleppo on September 3 or September 5.the governor of Aleppo at that time was Bekir sami Bey.Mustafa Abdülhalik was still in Istanbul at the beginning of September.He took office in Aleppo on ovtober, 1915. 
There is indeed a telegram from september 3, 1331 in the Ottoman archives addressed to the governor of Aleppo, Bekir Sami Bey.At any rate , it bears the serial number 78 and not Andonian's fantasy number 502. 
It appears that Franz Werfel, in writing The Forty Days of Musa Dagh was especially moved by Andonian's chapter on "the Broadening of the Massacre".ıt was no longer just the men who were to be killed(according to Andonian's forgeries).Now, the women and children were to put to death as well.Twelve of Andonian's "documets" deals with this issue.five of them are supposed from Talaat Pasha himself.Fortunately, these telegrams were esp. easy to expose as crude forgeries, based on several criteria(date, signature, names, serial number). 
Franz Werfel was at first completely convinced by the forgeries of Aram Andonian.He undoubtly also believed the stories of his circle in Vienna, who supplied him with reports of "the crimes of the Turks".It is thus understandable that he passes judgement on the Mevlevi monks without having any clear idea of Islamic Mysticism or the objectives of the dervish order of the Mevlevi. 
Occasionally Franz Werfel's comments are clearly intended(by his informants) to appeal to certain instincts.One example is when he is speaking of Ottoman Minister of war Enver Pasha and calls him a "vain playboy of the Ottoman Empire".Another example follows a description of the meditation exercises of Mevlevi monks, where Werfel writes, "The love-celebration here below him did not come out of mind, the spirit, but out of these wild contortions of the body", -as if the harmonious movements of the dancing Mevlevi disciples had anything whatsoever to do with "wild contortions"!But in light of the monumantal task that Franz Werfel had set fro himself, all this might well be overlooked.
By Erich Feigl
:Thank you Erich for your enlightening post (not). Perhaps you might be interested in David Irving's number - I hear that he is looking for some new ideas regarding how to better present genocide denial arguments. His and your claims that only 10,000 Jews and 10,000 Armenians were ever killed in the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide respectively are getting a bit tiresome and stale. I'm sure that there are plenty of ways to present so-called evidence to claim conspiracy and forgery etc while never actually addressing the actual facts of the matter - observed and documented by numerous sources in addition to the one source that you attack. A source that has been well corroborated using other sources from the time but which is in fact uncecessary for establishment of the core argument and is in fact not one that scholars need to or do commonly use as plenty of other more direct evidence is available. Besides taking the word of certain Turkish "scholars" (as well as non-academics with an axe to grind such as yourself) might just prove embarrasing rather then properly enlightening when one is concerned with actual facts and true historical events and interconnectivities. --THOTH 17:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  McCarthy: a great historian not fraud. But Andonian an authentic fraud!!! 

message: BBC, The World's most prestigous news channel does not call these events "a genocide" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6505927.stm, so can anybody explain to me why we have such title in Wikipedia? Furthermore, to my opinion Turkish people are not so mean with their words as Armenians when you read through the arguments on this page. Don't you agree?88.235.97.58 15:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Check this out ! 

message: Lets call this day "The Armenian SS (Schutzstaffel) Unit Day". 
Yet another historical fact: a fact that for years has been deliberately forgotten, concealed, and wiped from memory — the fact of Armenian-Nazi collaboration. A magazine called Mitteilungsblatt der Deutsch-Armenischen Gesselschaft is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration. 
The magazine was first published in Berlin in 1938 during Nazi rule of Germany and continued publication until the end of 1944. Even the name of the magazine, which implies a declaration of Armenian-Nazi cooperation, is attention-getting. This magazine, every issue of which proves the collaboration, is historically important as documentary evidence. It is a heap of writing that should be an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind. 
To give specific examples of actions; In May 1935 the Armenians of Bucharest attacked the Jews of that city, while the Greeks of Salonika attacked the Jews in the August of the same year. During World War II, Armenian volunteers, under the wings of Hitler's Germany, were used in rounding up Jews and other undesirables destined for the Nazi concentration camps. The Armenians also published a German-language magazine, with fascist and anti-Semitic tendencies, supporting Nazi doctrines directed to the extermination of 'inferior' races [1]. This is confirmed by Armenophile Christopher J. Walker, who admits that the Armenians collaborated with the Nazis. According to him, members of the Dashnak Party, then living in the occupied areas, including a number of prominent persons, entertained pro-Axis sympathies. 
A report in an American magazine went so far as to claim that the Nazis had picked on the Dashnaktsutiun to do fifth-column work, promising the party an autonomous state for its cooperation. Walker goes on to claim that relations between the Nazis and the Dashnaks living in the occupied areas were close and active. 
On 30 December 1941 an Armenian battalion was formed by a decision of the Army Command (Wehrmacht), known as the 'Armenian 812th Battalion'. It was commanded by Dro, and was made up of a small number of committed recruits, and a larger number of Armenians. Early on, the total number of recruits was 8,000; this number later grew to 20,000. The 812th Battalion was operational in Crimea and the North Caucasus. (These are the dates and numbers given by Walker). 
A year later, on 15 December 1942, an Armenian National Council was granted official recognition by Alfred Rosenberg, the German Minister of the occupied areas. The Council's president was Professor Ardashes Abeghian, its vice-president Abraham Giulkhandanian, and it numbered among its members Nzhdeh and Vahan Papazian. From that date until the end of 1944 it published a weekly journal, Armenien, edited by Viken Shant (the son of Levon), who also broadcast on Radio Berlin. 
The whole idea was to prove to the Germans that the Armenians were 'Aryans'. With the aid of Dr. Paul Rohrbach, they seemed to have achieved this as the Nazis did not persecute the Armenians in the occupied lands [2]. "Members of the Dashnak party living in the occupied areas, including a number of names famous from the period of the republic, adopted a pro-Nazi stance." [2] 
"Wholly opportunistic the Armenians [see below] have been variously pro-Nazi, pro-Russia, pro-Soviet Armenia, pro-Arab, pro-Jewish, as well as anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, anti-Communist, and anti-Soviet - whichever was expedient." [3] Sources: [1] Turkkaya Ataov: Armenian Extermination of the Jews and Muslims, 1984, p. 91. [2] C.J. Walker: _Armenia_ London, 1980, pp. 356-8. [3] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), _Cairo to Damascus_ Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1951, p. 438.
:Yes I heard the Armenians are also pro-alien invaders, and due to their collaboration with aliens in the extermination of humankind in the year 3099, the genocide of the majority of the Armenian people in 1915 must have been a good idea, and one for which there are countless moral rationalizations. A.D. Paranoiac, p. 972, Harpoonian Smardoodian, Harvard Cornell Penn Publishing, 29-p 3132 xqπ*.
:TEH ARMENIAN DEMON MAGIC MUST BE DESTROYED BEFORE IT TOO LATE, they raeps pregnant womens, ARMENIAN CAN DO FLYING WITH ONLY HIS ARMS HE MAKE FIRE FROM HIS BUTTOCK, KILL KILL KILL NASTY CHRISTIAN
:I kid because it is too much to weep.DBaba 05:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  April 24 

message: Thank you our Armenian brothers who prepared this page. Now it looks so biased and propagandic that, you can easily understand this genocide thing is a joke. 85.96.137.253 20:52, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thanx 

message: At Ottoman Empire Armenians were called "Millet-i Sadika" for centuries. It means "Loyal Nation". Most of Armenians were merchants and developed Ottoman Empire's economy. Ottomans took lower taxes from Armenians and they lived in peace and wealth for centuries. But at first quarter of 20th century, Russians promised to Armenians for an Independent National Armenian Country and gave them munitions.  And after this, Armenians chose a part of Ottoman Empire to found an Armenian Country. Armenians invaded this lands and killed Turks and Kurds living there. Now there are thousands of mass graves of Turkish and Kurdish people there. Turks and Kurds both couldn’t do anything because Turkish and Kurdish youth were both fighting at “Gallipoli” against English Imperialism and protecting their country. For protecting villagers, Government agreed about “Emigration of Armenians” to other lands. During emigration, angry Turkish and Kurdish people both killed thousands of Armenians but not millions. During events there are ten thousands of people died, most of them were Turkish and Armenian. Everything began with Armenian’s betrayal. After this events between 1975 and 1985 Armenians killed many Turks with Asala Terror and at 25th February 1992 Armenians killed 613 Azerbaijani Turks at Khojaly with Russia’s help. Armenians want the East Anatolia Region of Turkey now. It can be seen at Armenian songs, books etc. and because of Armenian's imperialist wishes Armenians say “There was a genocide against Armenians at 1915 and 1,5 Million Armenians died”. There was not a genocide. Only it's a lie for imperialist wishes.
--KhaLduNTR 08:33, 05 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Truth About Genocide  

message: This comment might go unheeded by some, but please do not post comments along the lines "this is all a balooney" or "Turks are butchers" - please try to concentrate on how it effects the article. eg "I think that in the X paragraph in Y section it should be included that Z, A, B call this a balloney for Q, W reasons", or "maybe we should reorganize C and D sections to concentrate on the fact Turks are butchers per P, R and S" :) Obviously I am exaggerating to make a point, but let's at least try to keep a correlation between the talk page and the article, no matter what viewpoint we are presenting. People are free to speak their minds of course, but it is just an advice... Baristarim 10:46, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The usual 

message: Lets call this day "The Armenian SS (Schutzstaffel) Unit Day". 
Yet another historical fact: a fact that for years has been deliberately forgotten, concealed, and wiped from memory — the fact of Armenian-Nazi collaboration. A magazine called Mitteilungsblatt der Deutsch-Armenischen Gesselschaft is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration. 
The magazine was first published in Berlin in 1938 during Nazi rule of Germany and continued publication until the end of 1944. Even the name of the magazine, which implies a declaration of Armenian-Nazi cooperation, is attention-getting. This magazine, every issue of which proves the collaboration, is historically important as documentary evidence. It is a heap of writing that should be an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind. 
To give specific examples of actions; In May 1935 the Armenians of Bucharest attacked the Jews of that city, while the Greeks of Salonika attacked the Jews in the August of the same year. During World War II, Armenian volunteers, under the wings of Hitler's Germany, were used in rounding up Jews and other undesirables destined for the Nazi concentration camps. The Armenians also published a German-language magazine, with fascist and anti-Semitic tendencies, supporting Nazi doctrines directed to the extermination of 'inferior' races [1]. This is confirmed by Armenophile Christopher J. Walker, who admits that the Armenians collaborated with the Nazis. According to him, members of the Dashnak Party, then living in the occupied areas, including a number of prominent persons, entertained pro-Axis sympathies. 
A report in an American magazine went so far as to claim that the Nazis had picked on the Dashnaktsutiun to do fifth-column work, promising the party an autonomous state for its cooperation. Walker goes on to claim that relations between the Nazis and the Dashnaks living in the occupied areas were close and active. 
On 30 December 1941 an Armenian battalion was formed by a decision of the Army Command (Wehrmacht), known as the 'Armenian 812th Battalion'. It was commanded by Dro, and was made up of a small number of committed recruits, and a larger number of Armenians. Early on, the total number of recruits was 8,000; this number later grew to 20,000. The 812th Battalion was operational in Crimea and the North Caucasus. (These are the dates and numbers given by Walker). 
A year later, on 15 December 1942, an Armenian National Council was granted official recognition by Alfred Rosenberg, the German Minister of the occupied areas. The Council's president was Professor Ardashes Abeghian, its vice-president Abraham Giulkhandanian, and it numbered among its members Nzhdeh and Vahan Papazian. From that date until the end of 1944 it published a weekly journal, Armenien, edited by Viken Shant (the son of Levon), who also broadcast on Radio Berlin. 
The whole idea was to prove to the Germans that the Armenians were 'Aryans'. With the aid of Dr. Paul Rohrbach, they seemed to have achieved this as the Nazis did not persecute the Armenians in the occupied lands [2]. "Members of the Dashnak party living in the occupied areas, including a number of names famous from the period of the republic, adopted a pro-Nazi stance." [2] 
"Wholly opportunistic the Armenians [see below] have been variously pro-Nazi, pro-Russia, pro-Soviet Armenia, pro-Arab, pro-Jewish, as well as anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, anti-Communist, and anti-Soviet - whichever was expedient." [3] Sources: [1] Turkkaya Ataov: Armenian Extermination of the Jews and Muslims, 1984, p. 91. [2] C.J. Walker: _Armenia_ London, 1980, pp. 356-8. [3] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), _Cairo to Damascus_ Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1951, p. 438. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.97.151.164 (talk) 05:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So? No need for Ad Hominem. Especially here. I think this comment should be moved to the arguements immideatly. Kerem Özcan 07:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't believe that any of the above belongs her - particularly not on this day. It might be more appropriate in the "denial of known Genocides" section - as an example of the typical type of (non) argument given.--THOTH 12:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  April 24 

message: Is anyone here aware of the numbers of Turkic Muslims killed by Christians, including many killed in the Caucasus by Armenians and Russians, and many deported?
I have seen figures, just for the Caucasus Turks of roughly 500,000, which isn't far from the lower estimates of the Armenian deaths.
What do some of those readers and editors and arguers here who affirm the nature of the Armenian Genocide as genocide strongly, what do you guys think of the Turks who died? This is very much affirmed history. (I'm not saying a word about Anatolian Armenians, just to avoid that beehive. The figure I cited above was for *just* the Caucasus Turks, and we know many died elsewhere, too.)
So, what word would you use for the deaths of these Turks? Genocide? Or are you a "denier" of those deaths?
I'm also interested in sources that refute or affirm (non-military) Turkic deaths of the magnitude I described above, in the Caucasus, and elsewhere in the Empire, at the hands of Christians, including Russians and Armenians. 
--24.5.70.65 20:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the number of deaths is off by a lot... the Armenians were 1.5 million, and that doesn't account for previous massacres from the 1890's and on - as well as present massacres, which they sanctioned.  The number of Turks dead is 1,000,000 off from the number of the Armenians dead.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.183.9.245 (talk) 23:12, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two Genocides? 

message: I heard it from my grandfathers that armenians killed our people in those times. What now? If you can come with real proofs of genocide come. Your arguements are disgusting and really horrible. You are changing the picture of Ataturk, in which he has under his knees a dog just lying, to a picture where an armenian death child body is lying. You are big lyiers. Is not really Armenian death child is just a rag doll with ketchup! How come you are still alive? Please tell me if we killed your grand parents. If Ottoman Emperior would want to kill you, i.e. commit a genocide, they would do it perfectly that even no armenian flies would be alive understand that. And someday Allah willing all Armenian lyier dogs will be slain! You are unfaithful and just people that are going after a nonesense. How much ever you try understand one thing. Turkish people have always been great, whatever the conditions were. I think article, of wikipedia, name should be "Turks Have Always Been Great." This is what of which we are taught in my country and is always good, always true! Even if you make the whole world believe in your nonsense (I am not telling so called, I am telling it is a nonesense and so called in the same time) genocide claims it is not gonna have any affect on us. It would be like, as if, to make Charles Manson admit to his guilt before whole world -- not gonna happen! Keep going, whatever you say. You are hating Turkish nation not because of that we committed your so called genocide, but because you could not realise your dreams of taking parts of Turkish borders. Armenians instead many move to U.S. which is stinking in its own poverty!
: Dear Brainwashed Turk, Hitler commited Genocide killing 10 million Jews , as everybody knows, but I will tell you a secret - there are still 13 million Jews living on a planet right now!... don't tell anyone it is between you and me, because if Germans will learn that, they will start denying Holocaust... Steelmate (talk) 15:22, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dear Stupid Steelmate, there were more than 17 million jews before WW2, after WW2 there were little more than 11 million jews, and jews have not managed to recover from that as they are, as you said, 13 million today, not 17 million, much less the amount they would have been had Germany decided to not kill jews... Bootsielon (talk) 15:22, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

text: Dear Turk, That is simple, commiting genocide is crime, denying crime is a crime as well. Arresting criminal is a normal process in civilized society... Hope it helps. Steelmate (talk) 15:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Denying crime is a crime? Only in court... take it easy. Obviously Turks don't have our perspective and we don't have theirs, no need to be so arrogant in these discussions. 129.78.64.101 (talk) 05:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  So what if you heard it from your grandfathers