Talk:Epic poetry

message: I happen to like them very much, but isn't it a bit far stretched to mention And there that was silence in the same context as Illiad, Odissey and Aeneid? It is a song which is based on the themes of these epics. But itself an epic in the same meaning? Come on ...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.235.179.170 (talk) 22:13, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blind Guardian? 

message: I see a reference to a John Milton epic named "Sulfuras - Hand of Ragnoras". That's the name of a weapon in the online MMORPG-game World of Warcraft. As far as I know, Milton never wrote anything entitled so and I've been unable to find any references to a literary work by that name. Is this an act of vandalism or am I mistaken?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.164.125.108 (talk) 01:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sulfuras? 

message: Epos redirects here, but there is no explanation on what this term means or its origins. Obviously it's a synonym, but it's probably worth mentioning. —Michiel Sikma, 18:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Epos 

message: Someone HAS TO put in this topic something about the MANAS epic from Kyrgyzstan.  Anthropologists and linguists credit this poem as being the longest known poem in human history.   It was not transcribed until the mid 1900s (not sure exactly when but it was an extensive project).  Unlike all these other epics the Manas epic has shaped the identity of an entire ethnic group so it is rather important (in addition to being much longer than any other epic).   The people who passed this story down orally had to go through decades of apprenticeship before they were allowed to tell the story and a recitation can take more than a week.
:Be bold and have that someone be you.  You have seen Manas (epic) I'm sure John (Jwy) 01:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Manas (epic)|Manas Epic]] from Kyrgyzstan 

message: Isn't Faust an epic? I thought it was. Where is it in the page?
:The last edition that removed Goethe's Faust putted that it is a "dramatic poem", and not an "epic poem". --Leonardo T. de Oliveira 16:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And that was correct. --Wetman 07:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Goethe's Faust]] 

message: What about the Fenian Cycle from Irish mythology? --Leonardo T. de Oliveira 16:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Fenian Cycle]] 

message: And "On the Nature of Things", written by Lucretius in the first century BC? --Leonardo T. de Oliveira 16:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not an epic. The following misleading text was entered, I suppose, simply to reassure the bunny-rabbits: "As a result of this change in the use of the word, many prose works of the past may be called "epics" which were not composed or originally understood as such." Epic does not just mean "big" ("...went off with an epic bang") and it does not include Xena Warrior Princess. The result of this kindergarten reassurance exhausts all meaning from the word and feeds library-deprived crackerbarrel literary chatter.--Wetman 07:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Many classicists understand De Rerum Natura as an epic poem, of the specific sort known as didactic epic. Other examples would be Hesiod's Works and Days. Not every classicist would agree, of course; the definition of "epic" isn't straightforward. Still, I'd say that De Rerum Natura ought to be on the list. (for a reference, see this review of Monica Gale's Lucretius and the Didactic Epic. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: DRN is an epic, but not a heroic epic. 2600:8806:340B:E100:A0EA:A3B4:8CB3:563A (talk) 01:33, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[On the Nature of Things|De Rerum Natura]] 

message: Ovid's Metamorphoses is an epic. I quote the Oxford Classical Dictionary entry on Ovid: "An unorthodox epic in fifteen books, Ovid's only surviving work in hexameters, composed in the years immediately preceeding his exile in AD 8." The Metamorphoses bends the genre of epic, to be sure, but it is still considered an epic by almost any classicist. In fact, many classicists consider any long work in hexameters to be an epic, since definitions based on the content of the poems can't cover the full range of ancient epic from the Iliad to the poem of Parmenides to Aratus' Phaenomena to Works and Days. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This special pleading needs to be incorporated into the article rather than adding the Metamorphoses to an empty list, which will confuse the Simple. --Wetman 17:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Ovid]]'s [[Metamorphoses (poem)|Metamorphoses]]

message: The Silmarillion is not poetry; however, Tolkien did write an epic poem (though it was unfinished) called The Lay of Leithian.  It was written over the course of five years, and contains several thousand lines.  But should it be mentioned here, because it was unfinished? --Narfil Palùrfalas 22:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can find a source that talks about it as being epic poetry, yes, if not, then I'm not sure. GreyWinterOwl (talk) 16:20, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: The Silmarillion

message: Added The Ballad of the White Horse by G K Chesterton
APAULCH 21:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Added ''The Ballad of the White Horse''

message: Rearranged a lot of stuff, separated out prose epics (and others) without deleting entries, divided main poetic epic section into ancient/medieval/modern while retaining century divisions, and added in a good many titles. 68.100.18.183 04:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rearranged a lot of stuff

message: Some of the material on here is undeniably poetry (and long poetry at that); but is it all epic poetry?  It would be worthwhile examining some of the less-well-known poems here (where they're accessible) to see if they fit the definition.  While any two adjacent categories always have some dubious in-between items, most epic poetry is pretty clearly definable: does it narrate a series of interesting events?  That's epic poetry, even if in addition to the story told there is an allegorical, philosophical, or political point.  Or is the poem primarily an expression of the poet's thought, whether emotional, philosophical, or critical, to which the narrative -- if any -- is totally subordinate?  That's lyric poetry.  Wordsworth's Prelude, while it does pass through a series of biographical events, seems to me not to be about those events, but rather uses them as a framework to expound his thoughts on this and that. And while I'd be hesitant to confine epic solely to poems that treat of battles, marvellous journeys, and deeds of errantry, I'm also rather of the opinon that Wordsworth's own life was not up to the level of epic interest. :) 68.100.18.183 04:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Epic vs. Lyric

message: It is my personal opinion that John Milton's epic poem Paradise Lost should be added to the list at the top of the page of significant Western epic poems. It is one of the best known and best written examples of English blank verse and epic poetry in the West. Is anyone of the same opinion? Could we reach a consensus? --Alrocks334 02:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Milton's Paradise Lost 

message: Why are 'The Waste Land'and 'Four Quartets' grouped under 'Other' epics when clearly wrtten in verse? Simply because they do not fit in with the prevalent traditions epic poetry does not mean that they should be separated from the group all together. They are poetry, and should be listed as such or not as epic at all.
:More likely the latter.  I've not read Four Quartets, but The Waste Land is certainly not an epic by any reasonable definition of the word. john k (talk) 00:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Neither Four Quartets or The Waste Land are anywhere close to epics in length, material, aim, tone or convention. Nor are either satirical of epics. DMC (talk) 12:18, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eliot 

message: My comment bears on the 'prose', 'epos' and 'epic vs lyric' sections in the talk page above, and relates to the first two sentences of the article:
:"The epic is a broadly defined genre of narrative poetry, characterized by great length, multiple settings, large numbers of characters, or long span of time involved. As a result of this change in the use of the word, many prose works of the past may be retroactively called "epics" which were not composed or originally understood as such."
I agree with the definition in the first sentence, that seems pretty uncontentious. When the second sentence claims a "change in use of the word", though, I get confused. Change? Surely it is the use of 'epic' as a cinematic genre that involves the change in definition. The first sentence pretty much describes how Aristotle defines the epos in his Poetics, no? There is a trinity of terms in classical poetics: the lyric, the epos and the drama. The poet turns his back on the audience and addresses his muse, the poet sings directly to the audience about matters of civic concern, the poet speaks indirectly through the mask of characters. In a very schematic way, which I know some aestheticians contest (Szondi objects to the easy schematization, I seem to remember), this gives us : lyrical - the poem - mood and emotion / dramatic - the drama - interpersonal mimesis / epic - the novel - diegetic narrative. There is no inherent association in Aristotle between the epic and verse, I seem to remember.
DionysosProteus 04:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prose, Epos and Epic vs. Lyric 

message: The See Also section of the aritcle has a lot of links that should be elsewhere in the article, such as specific national epics.(Lucas(CA) 16:57, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: See Also need cleaning up

message: Johnson's Ark and Melville's Clarel should be added to the list of epics at the end; they are two of the three "completed" American epic poems (Zukofsky's A is the other).
71.199.8.10 07:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ronald Johnson and Herman Melville 

message: Walt Whitman's Leaves of Grass is not an epic. It is a collection of poems. It should be removed from this list.
24.7.158.72 (talk) 02:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leaves of Grass 

message: I think the mock epic has an honourable history that ought to be acknowledged. A particular favourite of mine is Charles Charming's Challenges on the Pathway to the Throne by Clive James.
Andy.hawthorn (talk) 08:33, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about mock epics? 

message: I strongly, strongly dispute that beginning in medias res is a defining characteristic of an epic.  Basically, Homer starts in medias res, particularly the Odyssey, which then loops back to give a long flashback (the Iliad just starts in the middle of the war, but doesn't do the flashback thing).  Later epic writers who were influenced by Homer imitated this characteristic of the Odyssey - particularly Virgil in the Aeneid (with Aeneas narrating to Dido about his previous adventures) and Milton in Paradise Lost (with Raphael telling Adam and Eve about the war in heaven).  
But it's certainly not a cross-cultural characteristic of epics.  It doesn't even apply to most classical epics - the other poems in the epic cycle do not seem to have been constructed in this way (the Cypria, for instance, just tells a narrative of the events leading up to the beginning of the Iliad).  Apollonius' Argonautica and Statius' Thebaid seem to have also been straightforward narratives, so it seems as though only Virgil of the later "literary" epic writers actually imitated Homer in this regard.  Of later western epics, the Divine Comedy certainly doesn't follow this format, either.
Nor, from what I can gather, do most non-western epics follow this format.  From what I can gather the Indian epics do not, nor does Gilgamesh.  Nor, from a different place, do medieval European epics - Beowulf starts with Scyld Shefing, for instance.
I strongly think that this should be removed as a defining characteristic of epics.  Obviously, some very famous epics use this format (most notably, the Odyssey, the Aeneid, and Paradise Lost), but when the exceptions are more numerous than the examples, we should be very wary of saying these define epics.
It's also noteworthy that much other classical literature which is not epic also begins in medias res.  I think particularly of the various Athenian tragedies, which always start more or less in the middle of the story (Iphigenia is long dead before the Oresteia begins; Oedipus has already killed his father and married his mother years before Oedipus Rex starts; and so forth), and are certainly not epics. john k (talk) 00:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''in medias res'' 

message: I feel that this article could probably go a little deeer into the difference between epic poems and non-epic poems before beginning a list. Critical analysis from T.S. Eliot and others surely would do well here, pressing the case for the classification and the problems with its use in historical contexts. Mrathel (talk) 16:41, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  More text before list 

message: Could someone take a look at National epic and see if there's any way to improve it, or determine if it shouldn't just be deleted? It's almost entirely subjective and unsourced, with people adding and subtracting based on their personal opinions and little else. Is there any information in that article that isn't covered sufficiently on this one? The only thing that might be a problem is the prose epic section, which is pretty interesting. If it's needed and based on anything solid, it might just warrant its own (decent) article.Merpin (talk) 20:05, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "National" Epics 

message: I'm moving the Táin Bó Cúailnge to the 7th century; while its events are dated to the 1st, the earliest literature about the story is thought to be from the 7th, and the "full" version appears in a late-11th/early 12th century manuscript.  Of course, that's prose, not poetry, and so aren't we stretching the term a bit if we even include it? MaryJones (talk) 21:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving the Táin 

message: The Poetic Edda is not an epic it is a collection of mythological poems and wisdom poetry, it does not tell an extended story. It should be removed from the list, which I am about to do...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.17.130 (talk) 14:35, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poetic Edda 

message: can you make sentences in english then translate them into acholi language for me  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.255.201.198 (talk) 18:54, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  acholi language from gulu 

message: The following was posted in Talk:The_Epic by User:Rich Farmbrough.  I think it was meant to end up here.
::
Scalzi+ | (Talk | contribs) 15:52, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: In Our Time

message: The Arthurian epics in Old French by Chrétien de Troyes should be added. Also the epics in Middle High German, such as Heinrich von Veldekes 'Eneit' (a retelling of the Aenead), Wolfram von Eschenbach's 'Parzival' (it is incredible that Wagner's opera Parsifal is listed, but not the epic it is based upon) and many more. The Medieval German languaged writers were very prolific in epics.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.81.106.89 (talk) 23:26, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Huge Number of Medieval Epics Missing! 

message: just pointing out one omission: I believe John Berryman's Dream Songs needs to be included. It is not merely a collection of related poems; it is indeed a single poem, a story. This is a prime contemporary example.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.176.111.20 (talk) 09:08, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  20th century epic poems (examples) 

message: To balance Parry-Lord, the lede currently has this statement: "Nonetheless, epics have been written down at least since the works of Virgil, Dante Alighieri, and John Milton."  The 1300 year span between Verg. and Dante here makes the sentence ridiculous enough, but a centimeter away on my screen is an image of a Gilgamesh tablet.  Does someone with a broader epic knowledge than me want to make all this less awkward.  The Cardiff Chestnut (talk) 23:04, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awkward balance in lede 

message: The following are under Medieval epics, 11th century right now:
**Moremi, a part of the Yoruba corpus of divine traditions. It is commonly considered to be a continuation of the story of Oduduwa, the protagonist's father-in-law.   
**Oduduwa, a part of the Yoruba corpus of divine traditions. Although the period that the dynastic section of the corpus describes is commonly believed to be the 11th century, its divine section deals with the origin of the world itself, and the holy Yoruba city of Ile-Ife is known to be an ancient settlement that dates to a time long before the birth of Christ. Due to this being the case, it may well be safe to assume that the earliest aspects of the corpus are from the ancient era.   
**Oranyan, a part of the Yoruba corpus of divine traditions. It is commonly considered to be a continuation of the story of Oduduwa, the protagonist's father.
None of the linked articles reference these epic poems, there is very little Google evidence for their existence, and everything said about the dating of the middle one definitely needs a citation. Does anyone have any knowledge of these? -Senori (talk) 20:44, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Yoruba epics 

message: The proposed list of epics is getting longer and longer. Are these all truly epics? For example, is The Battle of Marathon by Elizabeth Barrett Browning truly an epic?  Pete unseth (talk) 01:22, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Too many works included?

message: I will be recording the audio for this article for the Spoken Wikipedia Community. If anyone else is already working on it, kindly let me know to avoid duplication. A response would be appreciated. Adilalishah 16:38, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spoken Wikipedia Community