Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 39

message: Okay, it seems that the complicated discussion isn't going anywhere.  So (without prejudice in regards to going with the full scheme if there's more interest in that), let me throw out a much simpler idea: a rudimentary two-level setup:
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This has the advantage of being much simpler to implement, and doesn't require significant additional image work; but obviously loses a lot of the frills of the first draft.  Thoughts? Kirill Lokshin 18:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Kirill, I know I've been neglecting my duties of designer and stuff, but I have some exams to prepare atm... I'll be back on Sept. 20, can we let it cook until than? :) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 00:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, ok; that's fine with me. Kirill Lokshin 01:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It can wait. At worst this is a great fall back plan.--Dryzen 18:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do we have any designs yet? Hossen27 13:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the stuff above is the latest we have; hopefully we'll have some more soon, though! Kirill Lokshin 19:12, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think simplicity is the best way to go, that's why the barnstars are so successful as the emphasis is on the fact that you have one rather than how ornate it is. These second drafts look very promising! --SGGH 17:46, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Ooh, looks very nice! Kirill Lokshin 17:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Second draft 

message: Before I begin, let me say that I'm rather new here, and that I am really suprised at the organization and strength of this specific project. I am not sure the proper procedure for recommending a task force, nor the great deal of work that must follow it assuming it is approved.
I've been looking through a number of the pages I regularly watch and have noticed that they do not fall into the medieval (c500 - c1500) task force, nor the napoleonic (c1792-1815) task force. As many of you are aware this missing 300 year time period (c1500-c1800) saw a great change not only in military tactics, but in weaponry, armour, organization, and leadership. I think that a task force should be created to more accurately group articles currently (mis)listed in Medieval task forces and to promote information on the importance of this 300 year time frame as a major transitional period towards the following eras of military history and modern warfare. --Xiliquiern 14:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be quite interested in putting something like this together, given that it's my primary area of interest; but I'm pretty sure the proper term is "Early Modern" rather than "Renaissance" (which is a narrower, and perhaps earlier, period). Kirill Lokshin 14:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be perfectly alright with a name change. I suggested this one only because 'Medieval and Renaissance Martial Arts' (my particular area of interest) organizations generally refer to the late 15th, 16th and early 17th century arms and armour as 'Renaissance'. The addition of the 18th century would, indeed, push the barrier of the term, so I think Early Modern would be very fitting. --Xiliquiern 14:58, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a good idea, their are a number of editors and articles that have worked on the conflicts and events of this periode. It would only be fitting to give them a taskforce. Renaissance is though too narrow and ambiguous a term, although the general populace will get an indication of the timeline involved with such a name as compaired to Early Modern wich could be confused with post-Napoleonic. Yet the term is more indicative of the 1500-1800 bracket than renaissance, wich is usualy the 16th century, with enlightement in the 17th, etc... If such a taskforce where ot be created you'll be able to count me in.--Dryzen 16:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

text: As far as the name goes, I think Early Modern would be most appropriate, as that is the terms generally used in the historical community to describe the period in question. Additionally, it is somewhat less Eurocentric than Renaissance although admittedly, the second term is often used in the historiography of other cultures as a frame of reference (less now than formerly, but used nonetheless). Carom 17:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good enough for me; new task force is available here.  Most of it is done; the remaining paperwork should be finished shortly. ;-) Kirill Lokshin 18:31, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

text: That would depend, I suppose, on how late you wanted to run with it; "industrial warfare" probably goes up to about the end of WWII.  I'm not sure that such a grouping would be particularly useful, since WWI and WWII already have their own task forces (and editors working on WWII don't usually have an interest in, say, the Crimean War, and vice versa).  Maybe something running from 1815 to 1914 (grabbing all of the late colonial warfare, the development of modern firearms, etc.) would be useful; but I suspect that there isn't enough interest in the period among our current editor base (and I don't have a good name for it, either!) Kirill Lokshin 21:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If this is early modern what would modern entail? our own article on the subject states from 1800-present. A rather massive scope for a task force. A 1815-1914 taskforce would seem enviable, the semantics leading to its naming is on the other hand quite treacherous. Industrial dosen't quite come out as intuative on the world scale. Revolutions is sujested in the Modern Europe article and fits the general tumoil of the time. The History of South America broke it down to Independance, while the History of the Middle East splits it in Ottoman era and European Domination History of Africa calls it European Exploration and Conquest...--Dryzen 14:29, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a quick question: have all of our new TFs made their way onto other Projects' pages, such as the Biography/Military working group? I don't know how many others are cross-related like that, either.  Just a thought.--ScreaminEagle 05:41, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, the period 1789-1914 is often called "the long 19th century", although I agree with Dryzen that 1815-1914 is, militarily speaking, a little more useful. However, I think we should avoid creating artificial delineations for the sake of having every period of history covered by a dedicated task force. In this case, while 1815 is useful insofar as Europe is concerned, I'm not entirely sure that it represents anything significant for the rest of the world. While most of our period task forces have somewhat ambiguous start and end dates, which allows for some leeway in deciding where an article really belongs, it is somewhat problematic to define global task forces on specific years that are really only useful in Europe. Carom 13:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You have a point as far as 1815 is concerned, but 1914 seems a date with a bit more of a world-wide significance (c.f. World War I).  In any case, this seems a purely theoretical discussion at this point, as there doesn't appear to be interest in actually creating such a task force in practice. ;-) Kirill Lokshin 13:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, most of the countries that were at war in 1914 were in Europe - the war really spread in 1915, and in some places fighting didn't begin until 1916 (and the US didn't declare war until 1917). And some parts of the world (mainly South America) were not particularly involved in the war, which makes the relevence of 1914 to their military history somewhat questionable. You're right, however, it's purely theoretical at this point, as I think editor interest is probably pretty low. Carom 13:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I think the important thing to keep in mind is that task forces aren't meant to "split up" the project, but rather to provide a gathering spot for editors interested in a particular topic.  We should therefore try to keep the topics "natural" in the sense that they should try to provoke an almost-gut-reaction "Ooh, that's what I'm interested in" from visitors (as opposed to "Is this where the stuff I'm interested in goes?  Let me go check the dates, do some research, etc.," which tends to be fairly ineffective as a recruitment tool).  As a consequence, nations and particular conflicts are easier to work with (statements like "I'm interested in Japanese stuff" or "I'm interested in World War II" being fairly reasonable and common) than broad—especially artificially constructed—periods (how many people would really be likely to say "I'm interested in the period 1183–1702"?). Which is not to say that period-based task forces don't work; but the period needs to be coherent enough that an incoming editor might readily recognize it as something specific and meaningful. Kirill Lokshin 15:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, I hadn't thought along those lines. In essence, although for the dates if your a zealous follower of Cromwell, you'd know right away that you want in on the 1183-1702. While the Jacobite enthusiast will definitly find this hard to work with as he falls in two taskforces, rather than the British Taskforce...--Dryzen 15:57, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Task Force Proposal - Renaissance Military History 

message: Hello, I have read the article on the Waffen SS Charlemagne, and am deeply concerned. The article is somewhat pro-fascist, to say the least. I have made some initial comments at the article. Unfortunately also, the article was rated B. This is not a high rating, but it does grant the article an air of legitimacy it surely does not deserve. I have encountered this problem on other articles regarding the Wehrmacht. Part of the problem lies in the very concept of military history. Military historians often tend to empathise with, to admire, the military. Probably no political system glorified the military more than fascism. This by no means devalues military hisotry per se, indeed it makes good research in the subject all the more important. But that is because alot of pro-fascist material tries to grant itself an air of legitimacy by focusing upon military units with no reference to the sociological conditions in which they operated, and upon which they had an effect. As such, a website, Feldgrau, which the Charlemagne SS article has links to, claims to be non-political, but its "neutrality" extends so far as to ban any discussion of the holocaust on its forums. Surely links to this site should be banned from Wikipedia. I am deeply concerned by this, and will raise this matter elsewhere if I feel such action is warranted. SF —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.231.48.20 (talk • contribs) .
:So, are you arguing that Wikipedia should not include articles about anything German between 1933 and 1945?  That wikipedia should drop the NPOV guidelines for these subjects? or do you have suggestions to improve the situation? After skimming the article, I have to say, I don't really see anything advocating the Fascist cause or glorifying the division itself. Mike McGregor (Can) 04:58, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I took a look at the Feldgrau site. Curiously, one of the first things I saw was a link to their disclaimer. It says things like "Feldgrau does not support in any way those who would condone or embrace individuals, groups and/or organizations that are intolerant, racist or violent" and "this site is respectfully dedicated to all those who suffered and died during the most tragic war in human history." Yeah, that's a really chilling glorification of fascism and militarism. Albrecht 05:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, the article needs cleanup, particularly for style, and has insufficient citations, but neither of these facts distinguish it from the majority of articles on Wikipedia. It is also questionable whether the individual unit articles are the correct place for a discussion of the social or psychological environment in which they operated. Such a topic probably deserves its own page, unless the unit in question is particularly prominent in the literature (such as Ordnungspolizei Reserve Unit 101 in Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning) in which case a subsection would be appropriate. Carom 16:06, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wehrmacht 

message: I created a new category :Category:Texas Revolution and populated it, as well as a subcat :Category:People of the Texas Revolution. I moved :Category:Battles of the Texas Revolution under the new parent cat. Feel free to add any articles to these cats that I may have missed. Scott Mingus 15:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did some more cleanup on various articles involving the Texas Revolution and added some biographies (for example, Sidney Sherman. I also heavily rewrote the Battle of San Jacinto over the past couple of days. Scott Mingus 19:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Texas Revolution]] 

message: I've added the project template to the stub for the Shorts Belfast cargo aircraft.  This needs a lot of expansion.  I'll probably add more aircraft as I find them. Rosejpalmer 04:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aircraft 

message: Somebody (in your group) has classified this topic in military history, with an image of a tank shown.  Hyperspectral imaging is used in many other applications.  I added some mention of other fields, such as atmospheric science, prevalence of plant disease and brain imaging [1], [2] where the bracketed items are external links.  I don't know how to remove the little tank image or the classification but I suggest you do so.  After all, radar is a better example, but you do not have the little ikon etc in there.  Thanks  Carrionluggage 05:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The tank is just the standard icon for military-related stubs; there's no particular meaning behind it.  Having said that, this isn't really a stub anymore, so I've removed the tag. Kirill Lokshin 05:14, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hyperspectral  

message: I am looking for sources with the ranking of different countries' military strength. US is clearly #1, but which countries follow in conventional or nuclear capability? Dianelos 07:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not completely sure, but I think in a ranking based on numbers actually in engagement, US 1st, UK 2nd, Italy 3rd, and I'm not sure where it goes from there, but I'll try and find a better list than that. -KingPenguin 11:03, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Alright, here's military expenditure ranking, This is based on number of active troops, and I can't find any list based on nuclear capability. -KingPenguin 11:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is List of countries by number of active troops, currently FLC and quite well sourced as far as I can tell at least. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 11:05, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would be very cautious about taking this any further than military expenditures or # of troops and equipment.  I don't think "rating" each military and how they would perform against each other is within the scope of this project or wikipedia for that matter. Best to leve the subjective aside. --Looper5920 11:23, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As Looper5920 said, where walking on egg shells if we start ranking armies beyond sound statistics. These do not always present a clear winner (ex: the Seven Years' War Russia had the largest numbers and France the greatest expences yet both failled to reduce Prussia).--Dryzen 13:34, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Lmao Italy 3rd???? You have to be joking Penguin. They have a great military, no doubt, but I highly doubt top three in the world. The top three in most troops deployed are America, Britain, and France (in that order). Looper is completely right though. We're not here to rank who would "kick ass," even if you were to find some reputable author that gave an actual rating of military strength. This is beyond Wikipedia's scope, hence it is irrelevant as far as we're concerned.UberCryxic 20:18, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, the actual fact is that Italy (according to Military of Italy) ranks third in the world in number of military forces operating in peace-keeping and peace-enforcing scenarios (Afghanistan, Kosovo, Iraq, Balkans, Lebanon, Israel). What is France in that doesn't count as a peacekeeping mission that puts them over Italy? Not like that's a big deal, but it was a statistic, not just my imagination. -KingPenguin 03:51, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Make clear based on what criteria you want to do the ranking. German troops for example did quite good in NATO tests against expensive state of art equipped troops, although the equipment was older than the soldiers, furthermore many countries (China) have covered their total military expenditures, etc. So perhaps compare just numbers you know about for sure, like number of troops, number of jets, number of tanks.Wandalstouring 16:17, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ranking of military strength 

message: Some time ago, it was determined that macrons (e.g. "ō" and "ū") could be used in titles of articles relating to Japanese topics. See WP:MOS-JA for the details. As a result, I have been trying to create a push for editors to move articles to properly macronned versions of the titles. For example, Japanese aircraft carrier Taihō has now been moved to Japanese aircraft carrier Taihō. I would appreciate your help in this, particularly as the WWII articles are exceptionally numerous. I would imagine that most editors working on Japanese WWII articles know something of the language, and where macrons are and are not needed; if you don't know, don't worry about it (or, ask someone who does - there are plenty of editors who'd be happy to help out, incl. myself and likely anyone in the Japanese task force). Thanks. LordAmeth 08:15, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Macrons 

message: Some attention needs to be paid to this article; an IP editor is insistent on inserting OR and uncited "controversy" into the article; several of the "controversy" links also fail WP:RS. I don't quite have the time to track down the IP's and go through the administrative tasks to track them down, but one of them is quite insistent on gaming WP:3rr: User_talk:69.180.43.235. --Mmx1 02:19, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been a long running lack of NPOV for quite some time. I would personally welcome outside editors to make some changes, especially to the controversy and criticism section. However, as Mmx1 said, expect almost everything you do to be reverted or re-edited to insert bias. There is also a relatively severe problem with citations in the criticism section (on both sides, not just the critiques), not to mention that most of it is approaching "painful to read status" after many edits, re-edits, reverts, and more edits. If just a few experienced editors would give this a look over, I would be personally grateful. -- Xiliquiern 14:24, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps this article would benefit from a presentation of more groups (in other articles) working in this field or an overall presentation with the different organizations in subarticles. There are lots of POV debates in fencing, so we should try to make the best POV presentation possible. Wandalstouring 15:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I have made a couple of notes today on the talk page, and would welcome interested third party review of my suggestions. I welcome any editors opinions, especially those of you who seem to be especially skilled at finding POV. -- Xiliquiern 04:20, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some attention needs to be paid to [[Association for Renaissance Martial Arts]] 

message: :Moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Peer review/British nuclear tests at Maralinga. Kirill Lokshin 16:13, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[British nuclear tests at Maralinga]]

message: Hi everyone. FYI there is a discussion and proposal in Wikipedia talk:Naming conflict about use of strong words such as "massacre" and "genocide" in article names. Your comments there would be most welcome. Naming guidelines on a few pages, including this one, could be clarified. Kla'quot 19:01, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Responded there.  This seems to mesh up pretty well with our current guideline. Kirill Lokshin 19:33, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved the discussion to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions. Kla'quot 09:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The discussion is still at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions#Proposal_for_articles_on_events_and_activities. The proposal itself has graduated to "guideline" status, and is now at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (events). Kla'quot 19:09, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article names for controversial events 

message: How important is G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero? that we do have a detailed story of a plot about two action figures in the historical Hannibal Barca biograpy? Are we going to tell there every idea someone has published about the possible usage of Hannibal Barca DNA in science fiction? It keeps coming back, when I delet it, so we should make a point. I think it fits far better to tell this story in G.I. Joe and give a link to Hannibal Barca. Wandalstouring 20:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That definitely doesn't belong there, but I am vastly confused. Why does the body of the article suddenly start in 203 BCE, ignoring everything that happened before????? I mean...what the frick....72.66.53.49 01:16, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Nvm fixed it (this is Uber btw; I'm having trouble logging on my account in this comp).72.66.53.49 01:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Ummm people this is pretty damn serious. For several days there the Hannibal article had like 70% of its length cut out. Somebody please monitor it more closely.72.66.53.49 01:27, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, there's usually people watching that article; I'm surprised it didn't get caught. Kirill Lokshin 02:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

text: As far as action toys are concerned: see the ongoing #Popular Culture discussion up closer to the top of the page. ;-) Kirill Lokshin 02:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It happened to me several weeks ago, that I did an edit there and in the preview all looked OK and I saved it. But then the article was much shorter (no content deleted, just made invisible). it took me some time to figure out the mistake, but can't remember what it was. Perhaps something similar happened, although I doubt it was me this time. Wandalstouring 14:40, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Hannibal Barca]] action toys 

message: If anyone has a bit of free time, the A-Class review for the Battle of Greece needs some attention! :-) Kirill Lokshin 02:38, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A-Class review request 

message: I have created this article here Mozambiquan War of Independence after trawling as thoroughily as I can through wikipedia and finding no article for this conflict. I will continue to work on this article until hopefully we have a well written resroue on the conflict, however I would very much appreciate any help from users willing to help me tackle this one, as it's my first big article attempt. Many thanks, --SGGH 14:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mozambiquan War of Independence