Talk:Masculinizing hormone therapy

message: This would benefit from a lot more references. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:03, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refs 

message: It would be a good idea if the article could mention whether hormone replacement therapy has ever been used in the context of conversion therapy, i.e. trying to convert homosexuals into heterosexuals. There are generally two types of homosexuals : those that have too many hormones and those that don't have enough. In this context, it is possible that an appropriate hormonal transfer could have associated effects on sexual orientation. ADM (talk) 14:07, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As usual, reliable sourcing would be best here. Benjiboi. 1:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The source I had in mind was Gunter Dorner, who performed experiments on rats designed to alter their sexual behavior. He reported that the destruction of the ventromedial nucleus in apparently homosexual rats caused them to become heterosexual. Dorner suggested that homosexuality in humans was caused by hormonal factors and should be cured or prevented. ADM (talk) 04:38, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Another case comes from the United Arab Emirates, where a group of homosexual men were reportedly arrested and ordered to undergo government-sponsored hormone treatments, as well as five years in jail.  ADM (talk) 05:00, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

text: Watch out for the ad hominem fallacy. Also, science tends to preclude morality, on the grounds of utilitarianism, meaning that if people can use hormones to succesfully change sex, there is no reason that owing to their own personal conscience, they could  not also use similar hormones to change sexual orientation. The debate isn't about politically correct morality, but about freedom of choice. ADM (talk) 05:24, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Conversion therapy

message: There are no sources at all for Hormone_replacement_therapy_(female-to-male)#Medical_contraindications. 12.14.180.12 (talk) 09:34, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I found and added a source, but this article needs a lot more work. I'm not an expert but I will bookmark and revisit to see if I can help add more good sources. Funcrunch (talk) 07:47, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  No sources at all 

message: Greetings, several sentences seem to be copied from http://www.femaletomale.org/ftm-transitioning-guide/testosterone-hrt/ 80.171.32.87 (talk) 14:17, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copy/Pastes from femaletomale.org? 

message: There is a title discussion related to this article at Talk:Hormone replacement therapy (male-to-female)#Article title again. A WP:Permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:58, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Transgender hormone therapy (male-to-female) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 09:04, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: The wikipedia page for feminizing HRT (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminizing_hormone_therapy) has a history section abou the history of the development of feminizing HRT and I think it would be useful for this article to have its own history section. Plasticmae (talk) 21:33, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  History Section 

message: "Some transgender men may undergo DIY treatments and self-administer testosterone; however, without proper training, this can cause issues such as bruising, irritation, and needle breakages. Self-administration of testosterone for transmasculine people without training or a prescription is considered unsafe and is not recommended by public or private healthcare providers. "
This quote is from the Safety section of this article, and I have removed it. Upon review of the source (https://www.gendergp.com/testosterone-injection-afab/), the many hyperlinks in the source are to sources that have no relation to the claims. 
"Injecting at home is extremely risky. "
GenderGP claims that injecting is risky or dangerous. The linked study is "Strategies and challenges for safe injection practice in developing countries" and in the abstract states "Rational and safe use of injections can save many lives but unsafe practice threatens life", and says nothing about the riskiness of injecting. Furthermore, the article is set in the United Kingdom, which is not a developing country. 
Untrained self-injection is dangerous.
=== It can cause: ===
* Bleeding
Bleeding is an obviously normal side effect of injections. The linked article to PeaceHealth states "If you see blood in the syringe, it means you might have hit a blood vessel. This usually isn't harmful.", contradicting the statement that bleeding is an indicator of self-injection being dangerous. 
* Needle Breakages may cause a plethora of issues, especially if it affects the tissue, veins, or even the organs.
The linked article is describing the "[breakage] and retention of dental needles within tissues". Testosterone is not injected through the mouth and is obviously not a dental procedure. 
=== Safely Self-Injecting Testosterone, Hormone Blockers, or Estrogen ===
Before you self-inject, it’s important to have the correct items prepared, so that you don’t cause injury to yourself and others, we’ve created this handy checklist below to ensure absolute safety.
Book Self-Injection for Testosterone for AFABs Training
Clicking on this link right underneath brings me to a page where they ask for £60.00 for a training. 
This page reads like a scare advertisement designed to scare people into buying a procedure they don't need. Further research into this source suggests GenderGP is a private online clinic. More googling has discovered that "the retired consultant gastroenterologist [who is running GenderGP] had provided treatment that was not clinically indicated or that had been prescribed without adequate tests, assessments, or examinations". https://www.bmj.com/content/377/bmj.o1357.full
Be wary of other links from GenderGP. It does not appear to be a well-researched source.  Calabax (talk) 09:22, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  GenderGP is not a high-quality source 

message: Before you self-inject, it’s important to have the correct items prepared, so that you don’t cause injury to yourself and others, we’ve created this handy checklist below to ensure absolute safety.
Book Self-Injection for Testosterone for AFABs Training
Clicking on this link right underneath brings me to a page where they ask for £60.00 for a training. 
This page reads like a scare advertisement designed to scare people into buying a procedure they don't need. Further research into this source suggests GenderGP is a private online clinic. More googling has discovered that "the retired consultant gastroenterologist [who is running GenderGP] had provided treatment that was not clinically indicated or that had been prescribed without adequate tests, assessments, or examinations". https://www.bmj.com/content/377/bmj.o1357.full
Be wary of other links from GenderGP. It does not appear to be a well-researched source.  Calabax (talk) 09:22, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''''Safely Self-Injecting Testosterone, Hormone Blockers, or Estrogen''''' 

message: ==== Unaffected characteristics (removed content) ====
A number of skeletal and cartilaginous changes take place after the onset of puberty at various rates and times. Sometime in the late teen years epiphyseal closure (in other words, the ends of bones are fused closed) takes place and the length of bones is fixed for life. Consequently, total height and the length of arms, legs, hands, and feet are not affected by HRT. However, details of bone shape change throughout life, bones becoming heavier and more deeply sculptured under the influence of testosterone. Many of these differences are described in the Desmond Morris book Manwatching.
* Pelvis: The pelvis in females tends to be wider than in males and tilted forward; the pelvis in males tends to be more circular and tilted upwards.
* Hands: Male hands and feet tend to be larger than female hands and feet in persons of equal height.
* Upper Arm: The upper arm in females tends to be significantly longer (about 1") than in males of the same height.
* Head: Females tend to have smaller heads than males of the same height.
* Chest: Female rib cages tend to be narrower than those of males in the same height.
====Removal reason====
I removed this section for being internally inconsistent and having no citations. Manwatching is not published in a journal, seems to have little relation to the topic of masculinizing hormone therapy (MHT), and the subsequent bullet points don't talk about the effects of MHT on the body parts, nor if the subjects described underwent MHT. The preceding paragraph states "bones becoming heavier and more deeply sculptured under the influence of testosterone" - does that cause the anatomical differences described in the bullet points, or are they precluded? Other sections of the (very bloated) article already mention epiphyseal closure as well. 
With this level of uncitedness, I think it'd be better to remove content and if further citations are found, to add it back anew.  Calabax (talk) 07:11, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Unaffected characteristics 

message: I removed this section for being internally inconsistent and having no citations. Manwatching is not published in a journal, seems to have little relation to the topic of masculinizing hormone therapy (MHT), and the subsequent bullet points don't talk about the effects of MHT on the body parts, nor if the subjects described underwent MHT. The preceding paragraph states "bones becoming heavier and more deeply sculptured under the influence of testosterone" - does that cause the anatomical differences described in the bullet points, or are they precluded? Other sections of the (very bloated) article already mention epiphyseal closure as well. 
With this level of uncitedness, I think it'd be better to remove content and if further citations are found, to add it back anew.  Calabax (talk) 07:11, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal reason