Talk:Furcadia

message: The "Dreams" section seems to be a good candidate for splitting into its own article, as similar to DragonSpeak. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yamake (talk • contribs) 11:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm leaning towards disagreement here. The "Dreams" section isn't very long, and if it was made its own article, would be difficult to find sources and prove notability for. It would probably not withstand an Articles for Deletion nomination. I would extend this judgement to the DragonsSpeak article as well, to a lesser extent (Felorin has spoken at length about DragonSpeak in interviews, so sourcing may be possible there). However, complete articles on both subjects would definitely be appropriate on FurcadiaWiki. -kotra 01:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Splitting Dreams from main article 

message: are there no primates or reptiles? that's too bad.--Sonjaaa (talk) 15:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There are dragons (a pay avatar). Otherwise, no. -kotra (talk) 21:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: primates?

message: Sorry, not quite GA standard yet. Some notes for improvement;
*"Furcadia is the longest continuously running MMO." - needs an independant reliable source
*Infobox image should be a welcome screen or something (if it isn't)
*Gameplay section before development
*"On 16 December 2006, Furcadia became the first-ever MMORPG to celebrate ten years of continual service" - standalone, merge to a paragraph
*"Dreams" section unsourced
*"Main maps" & "Other official maps" sections are listcruft
*Is the "The Beekins" section needed?
*"Business model" section = unsourced listcruft
*"Awards" section could do with some prose
If you have questions/comments, leave a note on my talk page. If you found this review helpful, please consider reviewing another nominee. Cheers, Dihydrogen Monoxide (party) 05:28, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the review, it's helpful. I predicted it would fail for many of these reasons (the unsourced sections and the amount of crufty information, particularly). For the "longest continuously running MMO" claim, I think the MPOGD reference is independent and reliable enough, though. Also, I think the Beekins section (trimmed down, perhaps) is notable due to the unique and extensive nature of Furcadia's volunteer program. Everything else I agree completely with. -kotra (talk) 22:01, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's worth noting that Guinness World Records, a far more reliable source, states UO as being the longest running MMORPG. Either they are wrong, Furcadia is wrong, or something technical got in the way (such as not counting Furcadia as an RPG). - 67.166.134.243 (talk) 17:35, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Guinness probably just hadn't heard of Furcadia, because Furcadia is clearly older by nearly a year. On the other hand, Ultima Online is fully aware of Furcadia (Furcadia's creator was at one point going to make UO), so they either have a particularly limited definition of MMORPG, or they just conveniently ignore Furcadia for marketing reasons. Anyway, we could mention that Guinness considers UO the longest-running while others (and common sense, but we can't cite that) say Furcadia is the longest-running. -kotra (talk) 01:23, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Honestly, I'm not seeing where Furcadia is an RPG of any kind. It's a social environment. You can layer an RPG on top of Furcadia - and indeed that is a clear intent of the creators - but it's not an integral part of things, just as Second Life isn't an RPG, and Ethernet isn't a transport protocol. GreenReaper (talk) 04:27, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The creators didn't program in any mandatory structure for how to roleplay, if that's what you mean (though one of the creators did create a voluntary system). Furcadia is, however, still primarily a role-playing game, where players come to interact as a character (if even just as their normal selves with an anthropomorphic animal shell). Perhaps Second Life could also be considered an RPG, though as far as I know, Linden hasn't introduced any formal roleplaying structure like Talzhemir did. However, this definition of RPG (a game where you roleplay) has been largely discarded by the mainstream gaming community in favor of goal-oriented treadmill-like RPGs with tight structure and very little actual roleplaying. But some people are still valiantly fighting for the old, broader definition, like this recent article. -kotra (talk) 06:51, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the "if only as themselves" bit that gets me. At some point, it turns into a chat channel with glorified avatars. Perhaps I'm cynical (or just mistaken), but from what I've seen that's a fair description of the majority of activity on Furcadia — well, that plus looking for tail in FurN — and it's hard for me to see a chat full of furr[e|ie]s as a role-playing game. I think that's why text-only versions like FurryMUCK call themselves "chat kingdoms". GreenReaper (talk) 08:00, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is original research, but from what I know of Furcadia (admittedly not as much these days) at least half of the players at any one time are doing some form of roleplaying (even if it's just "looking for tail"). Your common misconception stems from the most public areas (main maps) being mostly just normal chat. However, a great deal of the players spend all their time in private dreams, often roleplaying. I don't have any statistics, but it's more than people usually think. Original research aside, Felorin and Emerald Flame call it a MMORPG, and there are probably other sources as well. But perhaps to avoid this whole discussion, they just call it a MMOG on furcadia.com. I wouldn't mind changing it to just MMOG (or MMO*) here as well. In fact, it may be better, since Furcadia is really part MMORPG and part MMOSG, and "MMOSG/MMORPG" is kind of unwieldy. -kotra (talk) 18:30, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

text: Also worth noting, the game GemStone has been a continuously running MMORPG since 1988.  -Azureth (talk) 23:17, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This may be contentious, since the different "versions" of Gemstone (Gemstone, Gemstone II, etc) could either be considered separate sequels or the same game with just a different name (the truth is probably somewhere in between); also, the only source given for that claim is an 8-year-old interview from a director of the company that owns the game. However, it's not unlikely that other MMOGs like Gemstone are older than Furcadia, so I changed the wording. Thanks for bringing this up. -kotra (talk) 00:27, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: GA failed

message: ::It's worth noting that Guinness World Records, a far more reliable source, states UO as being the longest running MMORPG. Either they are wrong, Furcadia is wrong, or something technical got in the way (such as not counting Furcadia as an RPG). - 67.166.134.243 (talk) 17:35, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Guinness probably just hadn't heard of Furcadia, because Furcadia is clearly older by nearly a year. On the other hand, Ultima Online is fully aware of Furcadia (Furcadia's creator was at one point going to make UO), so they either have a particularly limited definition of MMORPG, or they just conveniently ignore Furcadia for marketing reasons. Anyway, we could mention that Guinness considers UO the longest-running while others (and common sense, but we can't cite that) say Furcadia is the longest-running. -kotra (talk) 01:23, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Honestly, I'm not seeing where Furcadia is an RPG of any kind. It's a social environment. You can layer an RPG on top of Furcadia - and indeed that is a clear intent of the creators - but it's not an integral part of things, just as Second Life isn't an RPG, and Ethernet isn't a transport protocol. GreenReaper (talk) 04:27, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The creators didn't program in any mandatory structure for how to roleplay, if that's what you mean (though one of the creators did create a voluntary system). Furcadia is, however, still primarily a role-playing game, where players come to interact as a character (if even just as their normal selves with an anthropomorphic animal shell). Perhaps Second Life could also be considered an RPG, though as far as I know, Linden hasn't introduced any formal roleplaying structure like Talzhemir did. However, this definition of RPG (a game where you roleplay) has been largely discarded by the mainstream gaming community in favor of goal-oriented treadmill-like RPGs with tight structure and very little actual roleplaying. But some people are still valiantly fighting for the old, broader definition, like this recent article. -kotra (talk) 06:51, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the "if only as themselves" bit that gets me. At some point, it turns into a chat channel with glorified avatars. Perhaps I'm cynical (or just mistaken), but from what I've seen that's a fair description of the majority of activity on Furcadia — well, that plus looking for tail in FurN — and it's hard for me to see a chat full of furr[e|ie]s as a role-playing game. I think that's why text-only versions like FurryMUCK call themselves "chat kingdoms". GreenReaper (talk) 08:00, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is original research, but from what I know of Furcadia (admittedly not as much these days) at least half of the players at any one time are doing some form of roleplaying (even if it's just "looking for tail"). Your common misconception stems from the most public areas (main maps) being mostly just normal chat. However, a great deal of the players spend all their time in private dreams, often roleplaying. I don't have any statistics, but it's more than people usually think. Original research aside, Felorin and Emerald Flame call it a MMORPG, and there are probably other sources as well. But perhaps to avoid this whole discussion, they just call it a MMOG on furcadia.com. I wouldn't mind changing it to just MMOG (or MMO*) here as well. In fact, it may be better, since Furcadia is really part MMORPG and part MMOSG, and "MMOSG/MMORPG" is kind of unwieldy. -kotra (talk) 18:30, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

text: Also worth noting, the game GemStone has been a continuously running MMORPG since 1988.  -Azureth (talk) 23:17, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This may be contentious, since the different "versions" of Gemstone (Gemstone, Gemstone II, etc) could either be considered separate sequels or the same game with just a different name (the truth is probably somewhere in between); also, the only source given for that claim is an 8-year-old interview from a director of the company that owns the game. However, it's not unlikely that other MMOGs like Gemstone are older than Furcadia, so I changed the wording. Thanks for bringing this up. -kotra (talk) 00:27, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oldest MMORPG 

message: I thought this might be interesting to people. Furcadia was briefly mentioned in a college newspaper: 
Conner's chosen character is a snow leopard (an animal he has always felt close to) named Satoshi, which he developed from a furry role-playing game called Furcadia.
Probably nothing of use there for citation purposes, but it's something. -kotra (talk) 13:08, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mention in a local paper 

message: Although an assessment hasn't been requested, I noticed in passing that this article was rated B-class despite a number of obvious issues, so I've dropped the rating to Start and hope some of these suggestions might prove helpful for anyone who wants a go at improving the article further:
*The lead section should summarize the entire article in one or two paragraphs. It's difficult to do until the major aspects of the article are complete (which isn't the case here unfortunately), but really should be more representative before this could be called a B-class article.
*Laundry lists kill quality dead, this article is full of them. They should be collapsed into paragraphs and examples should be given rather than all examples listed. Once the reader has been told they can create feline/canine avatars etc. they don't need to know every variant.
*Following on from the above, sub-headings such as the vast number under the gameplay heading should be kept to an absolute minimum. They're messy, take up space and break the flow. Most game articles do not need any sub-headings at all within gameplay. Please see A Boy and His Blob (2009 video game) as an example of how the article should look and the kinds of information needed.
*Readers aren't given any kind of handle about what the heck Furcadia is. The first paragraph of gameplay should give a general overview, with the different aspects following in subsequent paragraphs. The Dreams section seems fine, and 'dream standards' can be incorporated somewhere, but pretty much everything else needs to be written.
*What's a Digo? This isn't explained until the Business Model section at the bottom of the article, long after the reader has had reams of the things shoved down their throats. The Business Model section is the kind of material needed, but again it could do with merging somewhere else rather than being isolated (aspects of it could go into gameplay and development).
*The map lists need to go as well, that there are different areas with different functions can be explained without listing a dozen of them.
*The Volunteer Program section could be integrated as well, the actual description is fine, it just needs a few examples (again) within a paragraph somewhere. External links should only be present in the external links section or as footnote references.
*There is no reception section as such, just an awards section. This is non-neutral (positively slanted) since it doesn't cover commentators' opinions, a section similar to the one in A Boy and His Blob needs composing. There's a Softpedia review here and a GameSpy article already cited in the article which can be used as sources.
*I would suggest the article remains at Start class at the very least till there are semi-complete gameplay and reception sections, written in paragraphs rather than lists. At that point it could be bumped up to C. I would suggest holding off rating the article B class until those sections (and development) are complete and well-cited.
Thanks to the editors who have worked on this article and built what's here today. If anyone wishes to discuss the article or its rating please leave me a note here or on my talk. Someoneanother 23:11, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: These are good and constructive pointers. If I have an hour or two free sometime I might take a whack at making these changes, but I encourage others to as well. Thanks, Someone, for taking the time to review this article. By the way, concerning the awards, they were added in response to an unsuccessful AfD, to help establish notability. But notable reviews of any type (positive and negative) would be good to add. -kotra (talk) 23:58, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I wasn't in any way trying to imply that the awards were there to deliberately slant the article, just trying to highlight that it's something that will need filling out with more reception before the article can creep back up the ratings. Someoneanother 02:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

text: Thanks for the heads up! Improvement to this article is certainly welcome. May I ask who this group of people are? If they are associated with DEP then they will want disclose that, and will probably find a better reception to their edits if they propose changes on this talk page, for others to make to the article itself. If the proposed changes are aren't self-serving, off-topic, or violate any of Wikipedia's policies (as I doubt would be the case), then they will be made to the article by another editor, such as myself. Sorry about this clumsy process, but it is an effective way to eliminate conflict of interest issues (perceived or otherwise), and is something we try to apply to all editors editing articles about themselves or their organizations. -kotra (talk) 23:56, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, the people who are editing it are citizens who are just clearing up things that are otherwise vague or need citation. Brass and I are the main two, the others, I'm not quite sure. I doubt Furcadia staff have the time to mantain this wiki. It's a team effort. I myself usually only correct details or remove unnecessary elaboration or things that can be labled as self-promotion. Brass usually only plays in his sandbox though. ʍɪ₭Ꭵṯṭʏ 21:56, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article quality dropped to Start, an assessment/some suggestions 

message: It might be a good idea to say something about the "Second Dreaming" funding drive that not only met its initial target, but ultimately raised over $100,000 for development. GreenReaper (talk) 12:51, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Strongly agreed. The funding has continued over to a Paypal fundraiser and is pushing $150k. I've been following the fundraiser closely since its inception, and I am happy to draft a subsection under Development. I'd like to discuss what to include before making any major changes. 0kitsuta0 (talk) 07:41, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Second Dreaming" Kickstarter 

message: The Development section is sorely out of date in terms of the staff working on Furcadia. Not least of the updates needed is the death of former staff member Ryhn. Many new staff have also been added recently. Updating the new staff is easy, but I'm unsure if the death of/memorial to Ryhn is notable as far as Wikipedia is concerned.
Additionally, although it looks like it's been removed, a subheading (or simply a short paragraph) for the Beekin volunteer program should be appropriate here - depending on their roles, volunteers can serve as in-game technical support, access and update the game's website, or create art for the game itself (e.g., paid avatars sold by DEP). Most current staff members are former volunteers.
Finally, the iOS client is not currently available in the App market due to conflicts with Apple's TOS. This may be worth mentioning in case anyone tries to find it. 0kitsuta0 (talk) 08:13, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Development Changes 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Before making edits to this article, I'd like to find some consensus here on the Talk page. Can Furcadia really be considered a MMORPG? I don't think it qualifies as such. It has no game mechanics of its own, let alone RPG mechanics.
It seems more like a platform, where social games can be interacted with, rather than an actual game in its own right.
I find it fits this category much more accurately:
: Visual Chat Room
and if you want to push the "gaming" aspect of it, then this one:
: Social-network game
Please give me your thoughts and reasons as to why (or why not) should the article perpetuate the idea this is a MMORPG.
Thank you Raven-14 (talk) 15:13, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can this even be considered a game?