Talk:Dharma transmission

message: Is the term "Dharma transmission" specific to Zen? What about Tibetan Buddhism? --Knverma 21:36, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What about non-Zen traditions?

message: Inka is not the same as Dharma transmission for most schools outside of the Rinzai. In the Kwan Um School, inka denotes a Ji Do Poep Sa Nim. In Soto Zen, there is the shiho ceremony. For the Sanbo Kyodan and White Plum Asanga—inka is given after transmission has taken place, usually much later. I will work on a solution to this, because as it stands this article can be misleading.(Mind meal (talk) 11:32, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with this. Somewhat relatedly, dharma transmission also refers to the legendary transmission among the patriarchs (Bodhidharma, Huike, etc.). Claims this article, "Inka most often denotes the completion of some sort of koan curriculum." This was not the case for more ancient schools of buddhism. I am thinking primarily of the "sudden" school of thought regarding enlightenment that characterized southern Cha'n. As such, it does not seem logical to merge this page with that of Inka. Fred.Pendleton (talk) 01:49, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Fred and Mind meal - Inka is unique to those schools of zen descended from Lin Chi (Linchi Chan, Imje Son, Rinzai Zen, etc.), whereas "Dharma Transmission" is a broader term covering many more schools of Zen. It would be a mistake to merge the pages. Jikaku (talk) 13:16, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Inka?

message: The article mentions Korean and Japanese Zen - what about Vietnamese and Chinese?
I know Chinese Ch'an/Zen makes use of two types of dharma transmission- institutional (From the abbot of a monastery to the next abbot of the monastery) as well as private (much more like the Japanese method, from a teacher to his or her student(s)). Is anyone willing/able to write this up? I'll have time in a few days I suppose, if no one else steps up.
As far as Vietnamese - I really have no information. --Jikaku (talk) 13:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: What about other forms of Zen?

message: I've removed the following sentence from the lead:
"Mind-to-mind transmission" is a specific Zen-term, pointing to a self-narrative of the Zen-tradition. The Zen-literature does not give factual accounts, but polished stories, which serve to underscore this self-narrative. And anyway, dharma transmission is about much more than just simply acknowledging someone's "awakening"; it's also, and even more, about being socialized into the mores and behavioural codes of the Zen-tradition - about learning how to behave as a Zen-master. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 14:34, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed sentence

message: The new changes to the lead still give a Zen-narrative, not a referenced intro to the article. I'd like to propose the following text:
::
::
This proposal is more faithfull to the article as it is now, and based on referenced info. 
By the way, roshi is a honorific title, not a formal tile. No roshis are being installed, only oshos and abbots. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 20:32, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal

message: Sorry, but this "overview" is Original Research: 
Sources are even lacking here, as before. 
To give a few examples:
* "Dharma transmission forms part of the wider concept of parampara within the Indian religions" - which author states that? The article is mainly about Dharma Transmission In Zen. Zen's dharma transmission originated in China.
* "dharma (as reality) is something that must be realized, which is to say subjectively experienced within the psyche of an individual" - which author states this,a nd what's the relevance to dharma transmission?
* "the experience of liberation (nirvana)" - Nirvana is extinction; the link with "experience" is a modern interpretation. See "" and ""
* "the custodians of a living tradition in which knowledge of the correct interpretation and application of the theory has been carefully maintained" - Buddhism has seen many changes over time, and is still changing. Buddhism as we know it in the west is a modern Buddhism, influenced by western thought. See Buddhist modernism and, again, McMahan.
* "Pativedha may involve the series of insights (called in Pali vipassana; in Japanese kensho) along the path (including the various jhanas) or to the experience of liberation itself, nirvana with final knowledge (Pali: bodhi; Japanese, satori)" - which author states this?
* "A teacher who has not themselves attained liberation does not possess the means and thus the authority to act as spiritual director to a group of aspirants. Any pretence at doing so leads to a false spiritual tradition lacking authority, validity, authenticity or integrity and becomes an example of 'the blind leading the blind'" - see "" and "" for some insights of the actual workings of "authority".
* "it might be considered that on the occasion of his first sermon (in which he ordained his first disciples) the Buddha established a professional guild in which he was the Master craftsman"- which author states this?
* "in the same general manner in which all authentic spiritual schools in India have been maintained since pre-historic times the true dhamma-vinaya has here and there been preserved in its authentic form" - which author states this? And what is this "authentic form"?
Apart from that, what's the relevance of this section? A link to Buddhism would suffice.
Joshua Jonathan (talk) 05:53, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: And please, this time first discuss before editing again. It's up to you to show what your edits are based on. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 06:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: PS2: There is a nice Zen-saying, "The Buddha and Bodhidharma are still practicing". It means that "awakening" doesn't change us into perfect beings; it makes us aware of our imperfections, and the need to counterbalance this imperfection. Much of my strong reactions has to do with an aversion against creating nice stories about perfectly enlightened beings. Those stories blind us, instead of helping us to wake up. Of course, I love those stories myself too... and I too find it disappointing that Buddhism too doesn't provide perfection. But at least we can strive to be honest, critical and loving people. So my apologies when I'm too harsh; I'm not perfect either... Joshua Jonathan (talk) 07:15, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: removed "Overview"

message: To clarify the dharma transmission is outside of the Vinaya ordination. The use of the term "dharma transmission" is misunderstood in the West.  It is important to really understand the ordination of bhikshu and bhikshuni is a transmission of precepts when absolutely done correctly by the ordination masters to be received individually by the ordination candidates is the lineage of Sakyamuni referred to as Gautama Buddha above.  The dharma transmission referred to in Chan is specific to a master or dharma teacher that is recognized within the Chan community.  This allows one to claim to be dharma heir in that very narrow context.  The person usually is well versed in the lineage teachings, and practices of their specific Chan center or temple. The monks and nuns in the Chan tradition uphold Vinaya precepts when they receive them properly. Specifically I refer to the Chinese Buddhist schools. If they abandon the precepts they are no longer monks or nuns in the Vinaya or Chan tradition. --Ven Hong Yang, Bhikshuni 21:37, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Ven Hong Yang. Thanks for your contributions! I've moved them to the Talk Page though, since you didn't give any references, and they read like a personal opinion/experience. But a very worthfull, to be sure! Would you have any sources and references to underscore this information? Best wishes, Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:51, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It sounds like you're talking about something entirely different - at least it's different in non-Chan schools - and that's that what we in the west call "Dharma Transmission" has nothing to do really with the transmission of the precepts at all - rather it's a transmission of teaching authority, independent of one's precept status. Is Vinaya ordination a requirement for teaching authorization in Chinese Chan? If there's a proper reference for that, it would be a good inclusion for that section. Jikaku (talk) 17:22, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transmission of precepts 

message: Regarding the monastic "family" idea.  It's true that all forms of Buddhist schools have this. Even the new forms have this family system. It is important to understand this does not mean the biological family is replaced.  This family system is one of convenience not one of rigidity.  If you have problems with one community you just leave it and find a more harmonious one.  Voting with your feet to be exact.  This has been done since the beginning when Buddha was teaching.  Use your common sense when you visit a community and see if harmony is in place or resignation or stress.  The spiritual family idea is ok, but it needs to be understood in context of strangers with different backgrounds and value systems come together for activity and precepts and just that.  Personal gains and sharing end at the start and end of activities.  There is no code of silence in Buddhism, infact, it's the opposite there is a duty to make issues clear within a communty, a certain amount of responsibility.--Ven Hong Yang, Bhikshuni 21:46, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Ven Hong Yang. same for this text. Best wishes, Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:53, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't understand what this has to do with the article, though (Dharma Transmission)? It sounds like it would be more appropriate on the sangha article with regards to Chinese Buddhist vinaya ordination. Jikaku (talk) 17:24, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Family structures 

message: I've added the info provided by Ven Hongyang. If Wikipedia-rules are strictly applied, her information should be seen as a primary source. But, assuming good faith (which I definately do), and in the absence of contardicting sources, I prefer to have the information included. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 06:49, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added info 

message: Someone please put in the Korean names (in Hangul and Latin if possible) of the Indian Patriarchs.Oliver Puertogallera (talk) 03:47, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Great addition already. Thanks! Joshua Jonathan (talk) 07:32, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Joshua Jonathan, the Korean names are in the Polski Wikipedia! - http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchat_zen - but since I don't know how to edit templates, maybe you can do it.Oliver Puertogallera (talk) 09:39, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I've put it on my "Job-list". Thanks for noticing. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 16:33, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indian Patriarchs 

message: Please explain yourself: "This is a page about "Dharma Transmission" - not "general" gossip and slurs about past misdemeanours." Especially "gossip" and "slur". Any sources? Please note that you can't simply remove sourced info just because you don't like it. Lachs and Ford are well-acquainted with American Zen, and the topic is a hot issue in American Zen. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:16, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: (Copied from User talk:Joshua Jonathan#Dharma Transmission) The comments that were removed refer to scandals of practitioners and the general institutions of Zen. I do not see what baring this has on "Dharma Transmission". These comments should be on the general Zen page, the SFZC page, or the page of Richard Baker. Manfrog39 (talk) 12:17, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the sources. Lachs is available online. Dharma transmission gives charismatic authority, according to Lachs, which makes it easier for such scandals to happen. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:21, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, it's not just (or only) about Richard Baker. Much more has happened since the 70's. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:23, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

text: I'll reread the sources, and try to nuance the sentence. Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:44, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

text: It's not that "roshi" is synonymous with "scandal"; see Barbara O'Brien. It's a few, out of the hundreds. Bot those few have done a lot of much damage. See Eido Shimano, Genpo Roshi , and Joshu Sasaki. Regarding God and exploitation; that's a well-known point of view. "Religion is the opium of the people", as you know. So no, it's not ourageous scholarship. Stuart lachs is a long-term practioner, who has been coaching Zen-students himself. And James Ford is a acknowledged Zen-teacher, who has received dharma-transmission himself. Brad Warner, to who Genpo links, also received dharma-transmission. There's a lot going on, and it's really painful. But it's better to be open and honest about it, than to justify it and keep silent. Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:20, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "general" gossip and slurs about past misdemeanours 

message: I have cleaned up a bunch of harvard reference errors.  There are several  references that are missing their matching long-form citations.  Also, someone with greater knowledge of the subject needs to sort out the Ford references.  There are undated  templates, there are some named  references and there are two different authors called Ford.
I've done what I could, it's up to you now.
—Trappist the monk (talk) 20:11, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Dharma transmission. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130420011852/http://boeddhistischdagblad.nl:80/rients-ritskes-op-beschuldiging-raksu-formeel-uitgereikt-als-bewijs-van-een-competent-zenleader/ to http://boeddhistischdagblad.nl/rients-ritskes-op-beschuldiging-raksu-formeel-uitgereikt-als-bewijs-van-een-competent-zenleader/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 06:06, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Richard Fumyo Mishaga, Manzan Dōhaku (1635-1715): The Man, His Temple and His Mission:
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:34, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Isshi inso versus garanbo