Talk:Variable-frequency drive

message: My understanding is that there is a way to also use a controller like this to brake a motor by purposefully lagging the phases but it is not clear to me what the power-take-off circuit looks like in this case.  Can anyone explain how regenerative breaking works in conjunction with this type of controller?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Laughingskeptic (talk • contribs) 18:03, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When the frequency is reduced more quickly than the motor will coast down, the synchronous speed drops below the operating speed and the inherent characteristics of the motor cause it to regenerate. The power returns to the DC bus through the anti-parallel diodes in the inverter circuit. If the regenerative energy is not removed, the DC bus capacitors will charge to an excessive voltage level. Standard VFDs monitor the bus voltage and limit the rate of frequency reduction to prevent excessive regeneration. There is also a DC overvoltage trip feature that will shut down the VFD if the voltage gets too high. It is also possible to switch resistors across the DC bus for dynamic braking or return the energy to the AC line for regenerative braking. The energy is returned to the AC line using a regenerative AC to DC converter circuit. -- C J Cowie (talk) 19:19, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Braking

message: There really should be something about regenerative braking in the main article.  Cowie, can you do it? --Treekids 20:18, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regeneration 

message: I would consider the section on regenerative drives to be misleading. Regenerative drives are not common nor are they widely used in the United States. In 10 years I have only seen one and that was when it was being pulled out and replaced due to constant failure. Major manufacturers (such as Yaskawa) are only now beginning to offer regenerative drives but they have had problems. The picture in that section shows a drive that I have never heard of and could find no information on. Crane hoist applications in the U.S. (which is one application mentioned in that section) do not use regenerative drives 99.999% of the time - at least in my experienced estimation. Crane hoist use braking transistors and power resistors to burn off the regenerative energy. If regenerative drives are more common in other countries (which I cannot find nor have ever seen any evidence of) then that should be noted. Otherwise, regenerative drives are still a "maturing" technology. Slowchaos (talk) 01:37, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Regenerative drives section may need improving but with the huge global emphasis on renewable energy generation in energy field, on hybrids in automotive transportation field, in electric railway transportation and so on. I therefore disagree strongly in general with your view. All Toyota Prius cars and similar hybrid cares are with regenerative drives. There is currently for example a big push for regenerative drives in building elevator industry. Common DC bus drive are also increasingly being used for regeneration in drive applications. As the cost of energy increases, regenerative drives will become increasingly attractive. If you scratch hard enough below the skin, there can be no doubt that there is a vibrant present in, and attractive future for, regenerative drives. Cblambert (talk) 22:38, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regenerative Drives 

message: There really should be a few graphs/tables illustrating how the torque/power/power factor/efficiency/ are effected of when a VSD is used.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.11.27.116 (talk) 13:59, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Motor Characteristics 

message: An anonymous editor just added the "Attention" template (well, sorta kinda) and the following text:
:Full speed listing:
:After the initial acceleration to full speed a 2-pole synchronous motor connected to a power supply that operates at 50 Hertz (cycles per seconds) runs at 3000 revolutions per minute (RPM). If 4-poles then 1500 RPM, if 8 poles then 750 RPM, etc.
:After the initial acceleration to full speed a 2-pole synchronous motor connected to a power supply that operates at 60 Hertz (cycles per seconds) runs at 3600 revolutions per minute (RPM). If 4-poles then 1800 RPM, if 8 poles then 900 RPM, etc.
:As the frequency of the power supply is changed, the motor's final speed is changed accordingly.
Until they added that text, I though the article was pretty fine, albeit a bit short. Now, I definitely agree that it needs "attention".
Does anyone feel strongly that this new text shouldn't be deleted (it's more relevant to Electric motor and the "attention" sorta-kinda template removed?
Atlant 17:17, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I say loose it.  It's a description of what motors do under various frequencies.  VFDs certainly provide motors with variable frequency, but this article isn't about describing how things operate when connected to a VFD.  Plus, the text is non-encyclopedic. Mainstreetmark 18:38, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Although the article isn't about describing how a motor operates when connected to a VFD, the motor performance is part of the underlying principles of VFD operation. I expanded the article with that in mind. I have more material that I will add later.
Capacitor symbol polarity appears to be reversed in the PWM_VFD_Diagram.PNG image. The '+' symbol at the bus rail doesn't conform with the direction of the capacitor symbol (the 'flat' side should be towards '+'). Zootsuite 01:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I have corrected the diagram, thank you. C J Cowie 14:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Attention?

message: There are problems with the bolded addition to the following sentence:
Various types of synchronous motors offer advantages in some situations, such as the use of hall sensors to control inverter frequency and pole switching to vary the frequency to rotational speed ratio, but induction motors are suitable for most purposes and are generally the most economical choice.
The use of hall sensors in VFDs is generally not related to the type of motor used. Hall sensors are used in VFD circuits for current sensing and as one of several types of shaft speed and position sensor.
Pole switching is a means of changing the operating speed of an AC motor, but it is generally not used in conjunction with variable frequency drives. --C J Cowie 18:07, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re VFD Motors 

message: There are newer variations on PWM control method. The standard method uses an image of the motor characteristic and pulses the frequency accordingly. Latest methods use Direct Torque Control and control the pulse width by reading the feedback from the motor. This enables individual phases to be pulsed more accurately and accounts for correction of imbalances prevalent in actual motor windings.
Aroonl 03:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newer control methods 

message: This is an interesting page from an engineering standpoint, but perhaps someone could add a few sentences about what they're actually used for?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.11.6.125 (talk) 19:09, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: VFDs are one option for controlling an electric motor(s) in a hybrid or electric car. I believe that there are some manufacturers presently using that approach. They have also been used in much larger electric vehicles such as electric railway locomotives. Some wind energy schemes use an induction motor controlled by a VFD as a generator. DC power from the VFD is passed to the grid using an inverter. C J Cowie 23:19, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uses? 

message: I've tried to post external links to three variable frequency drive articles that could really be a great research resource.  For some strange reason, they will not post, and it's not from a lack of trying.  I've posted them about 5 times.  The links are as follows:
Article 1: The Benefits of Variable Frequency Drives - This article outlines the energy savings, the tighter process control, and the extension of equipment life through variable frequency drives.  The website can be found at http://vfds.com/vfdbenefits.html
Article 2: How to Specify Variable Frequency Drives - This article describes the process one should follow to identify what type of variable frequency drive needed for a specific application.  The article also offers some alternative views on how to size drives.  The article is found at http://vfds.com/vfdspecify.html
Article 3: Harmonic Mitigation Specification for Variable Frequency Drives - This article explains the importance of harmonic mitigation control and the potential damage it can do to one's electrical system.  The article can be found at http://vfds.com/harmonic-mitigation.html
Can anyone offer an explanation to why I am have issues with this?
Webmaster emc123 (talk) 18:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links to Related Articles 

message: I had to guess that CSF refers to the switching frequency used in PWM systems.  There should be a bit of wordage, or a link, explaining this term before using it in the article...... 
Jim, K7JEB (talk) 01:18, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Carrier Switching Frequencies (CSF)

message: Well, I am quite happy to see how the Powerline harmonics section of this article has grown from my first stab at it. Thanks for all the hard work on improving the article.
A secondary purpose of the section is to make light of the issue that while VFDs can improve motor efficiency and may reduce metered power usage for a business, VFDs can also be detrimental to overall power quality and to other customers on the line, possibly many miles away.
I would bet that the compensation for harmonics isn't entirely loss-free by itself.... a power company choosing to install filtering at a substation is probably losing a certain percentage of power to run the compensators and "smooth out" the misshapen power sinewave. 
DMahalko (talk) 19:09, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harmonics ... nice work people 

message: * term needs explanation --Treekids (talk) 16:25, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  overhauling load 

message: The "clade" diagram takes up a lot of space and is mostly not about VF drives. The accuracy of much of the text was doubtful. Things like  "AC drives can be classified to be dominated in terms of rating total of historical and current installations by the following application areas" are impossible to parse. --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:42, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The clade diagram is still not very helpful. It's a hodge-podge of "topologies" (which is never explained), active device types, and a bunch of brand names, none of which are definitive.  The T1 to T13 designations are useless clutter. And where do cycloconverters fit in? --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:45, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Editors should interact with each other in a respectful and civil manner. Please make specific constructive suggestions for improving the article.Cblambert (talk) 17:32, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Editors should also write clear and organized prose. I thought the observation above was fairly lucid, would it be any more clear if it was phrased imperativly as "Remove both hodge and podge, do not confuse topology, device type and brand names, unless a drive topology is only made by one company in the world delete all brand names, rely on published sources instead of manufacturer's advertising literature, do not snow the article under with unexplained acronyms, give the reader some clue as to which of these techniques are important and why, and don't ignore the cycloconverter"? I think this vastly extended version of the clade diagram, compared with the original (and also poor) source, is not a benefit to the reader. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:05, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Please make specific constructive suggestions for improving the article.Cblambert (talk) 19:07, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Wind back

message: Cblambert (talk) 02:08, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Topologies 

message: For the record this is how VFD Types section read before recent 'wind back'
VFD types can be expressed in terms of the range of variable speed drives shown in the following diagram.    
    
    
    
AC drives can be classified to be dominated in terms of rating total of historical and current installations by the following application areas :   
   
Induction motor applications   
* Variable-voltage inverter (VVI) or 'six-step' drives   
* Other voltage-source inverter (VSI) drives 
* Current-source inverter (CSI) drives   
Synchronous machine applications 
* VSI and CSI drives (^3)
* Cycloconverter drives   
* Load-communicated inverter (LCI) drives.   
      
In a basic VVI drive, the DC output of the SCR-bridge rectifier is smoothed via DC link capacitor bus circuit to supply quasi-sinesoidal six-step voltage input to the inverter. In a basic VSI drive, the DC output of the diode-bridge rectifier stores energy via DC link capacitor bus circuit to supply stiff voltage input to the inverter. In a basic CSI drive, the DC output of the SCR-bridge rectifier stores energy via DC link inductor circuit to supply stiff current input to the inverter. A cycloconverter drive has no AC-to-DC converter and instead connects each output terminal to the appropriate input phase, making up the desired variable-frequency output waveforms by selective commutation from the fixed-frequency input waveforms.  In a basic LCI drive, the DC output of the SCR-bridge converter stores energy via DC link inductor circuit to supply stiff quasi-sinesoidal six-step current input to a second SCR-bridge's inverter and an over-excited synchronous machine.  
      
Most packaged AC drives are VSI-PWM type using pulse width modulation to control the motor's frequency in scalar or open-loop Volts-per-Hertz (V/Hz) operating mode. Higher performance drives have been developed offering field-oriented control (FOC), closed-loop speed control with slip compensation, or direct torque control (DTC). PWM is not normally used with DTC. VVI drives have largely been replaced by VSI-PWM drives.  CSI-PWM is also significant in high power AC drive applications. VSI-PWM drives are often incorrectly referred to as PWM drives. 
AC drives used in variable torque loads applications have historically been associated with general purpose 2-level PWM inverter topology in open loop V/Hz control. V/Hz control is also sometimes referred to as scalar control or variable voltage, variable frequency (VVVF) control. Higher performance load applications are increasingly been been used for AC drives with multi-level and cellular inverter topologies and closed loop and sensorless vector or DTC control.. The expectation is that vector control will eventually universally replace scalar control for AC drivesBose 2009, p. 11.
Cblambert (talk) 07:26, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  VFD Types 

message: I just want to comment that VFD's not only provide energy savings for high horsepower motors, it also assist in controlling non-steady steady state operating system.
For example: if there is a sudden load change on a pump motor (ie sudden pressure drop), the VFD can slow the motor down so the pump does not lose its prime (ie cavitation)
This is not an energy savings, per se, but I think it is worth mentioning in this talk page.
:I support your suggestion. This is sort of thing Talk section 'Benefits section need shoring up' below is driving at. Other benefits high horsepower VSDs have include:
* ability to 'catch a spinning column of water or oil' after outage
* slurry pipeline applications use of VFDs primarily to optimize pump/pipeline metal wear. 
Cblambert (talk) 17:46, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Energy Savings 

message: For the record, this is how 2nd paragraph of main Variable-frequency drive writeuplooked like before recent 'Wind Back' undo:
Manufactured in a wide range of ratings and topologies, variable-frequency drives are used in a wide number of applications to control conveyors, divertors, palletizers, rotary kilns, fans,  pumps, extruders, centrifuges, compressors, winders, chippers, cranes, punch presses, lifts, elevators, escalators, pulpers, refiners, shredders, chillers, thrusters, propellers, agitators, mixers, oxidizers, mills, equipment associated with wind generation, wind tunnel, locomotion, test  stand and cogeneration installations, and so on.  
Cblambert (talk) 07:40, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Main Part of VFD Writeup 

message: I propose new section something along the lines of 'VFD Technology's Importance' based on pronouncements such as made at recent Workshopon Power Elctronics for Industrial Applications and Renewable Energy Conversion by Professor Bamil Bose in the keynote address, 'Energy Scenario and Impact of Power Electronics in the 21st Century'^, that "the role of power electronics in our society in future will be as important and versatile as computers and information technology today" . . .!  
In regard to VFD technology's important, I also draw attention to the fact that a search today of IEEE Xplore ditigal database shows 9,241 records for the term 'Adjustable-speed drive'. 
^ http://www.peia2011.com/downloads/Bose_fullpaper.pdf
Cblambert (talk) 04:17, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  VFD Technology's Importance 

message: I am primarily an observer here but wanted to create opportunity for discussion of the relevance of the content in Benefits section. Jojalozzo 18:03, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relevance of content in benefits section 

message: Article's Ref. 13^ defines (on slide 3) AC drive topology as a 'A map-like diagram showing the elements of an AC drive and the relationship between them.', which until this week used to be referenced with Table 2. This definition cries out for the VFD article to come up with:
* a generalized topology diagram such as the one on slide 2 of Ref. 13
* a series of topology diagrams to make sense of the various different available topologies, all more or less along the lines of the topology article but for VFD topologies instead.Cblambert (talk) 18:36, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have created this sub-section to highlight perceived importance of topology diagram or diagrams as mentioned earlier today. Finding easy way to make such topology diagram(s) would be very valuable for the article.Cblambert (talk) 01:17, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Topology diagramming

message: I have always felt that article's 'Benefits' section needed shoring up in terms of:
* Sub-sections beyond Energy Savings and Torque Control
* In particular, DC vs. AC drive comparison table of Torque Control sub-section should become a separate distinct sub-section of Torque Control sub-section.
* DC vs. AC drive comparison table simply does not do justice to the wealth of info from the likes of ABB, Powertec, Reliance and others on the issue to the point that it should be scapped unless something major is done to improve it.Cblambert (talk) 00:51, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Re shoring up beyond Energy Savings and 'Torque Control', I was for example amazed to find out about my neighbour's model airplane not only being fitted with not only two elaborate remote-controlled 3-phase VFDs (each smaller than a match book) but VFDs that could turn the propeller at 60,000 rpm!!!Cblambert (talk) 01:10, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Benefits section needs shoring up 

message: (Comment edited as follows as it occurs to me that original text may contravene Professor Bose's copyright.)
This AC drive article would benefit from having a detailed history section along the lines of of the excellent history section off provided in the Transformer article. Professor Bose's 2006 book provides in Fig 1.16 (to use as broad outline for discussion purposes) the following four generations of solid-state power electronics:
* 1st Generation (1958–1975) (Thyristor Era)
* 2nd Generation (1975–1985) 
* 3rd Generation (1985–1995) 
* 4th Generation (1995–)
Professor Bose uses an impressive number of Wikipedia entries to describe these four generation including the following entries:
Diode, Thyristor, Triac, Power BJT, power MOSFET, GTO, Microprocessor, ASIC, PIC, advanced control, IGBT, DSPs, advanced control, IGCT, cool MOS, sensorless control, AI, fuzzy logic, and neural networks (Only a handful of other terms are not Wikipedia entries.)
Anyone interested in working on such VFD history section?Cblambert (talk) 21:59, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Ref 17 (Rashid, ed.) has a good historical review on p. 882 spanning 1886 to 1998 by Dr. Yahya Shakweh. Incidently Bose's 2006 book recommends Rashid as a good power electronics reference.Cblambert (talk) 06:36, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: An interesting VFD history is also provided by Professor Bill Drury at the beginning of his book The Control Techniques Drives and Controls Handbook.Cblambert (talk) 02:04, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  VFD history 

message: This Wikipedia pillar is sorely lacking a the part of some editors in this an other similar associated articles.Cblambert (talk) 20:13, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editors should interact with each other in a respectful and civil manner.  

message: It would be nice to come up with a 'Green energy' section in the form of possible a HEV Hybrid Block Diagram  at link http://twinkle_toes_engineering.home.comcast.net/~twinkle_toes_engineering/hybrid_car.htm#Toyota/Ford/Lexus hybrid block diagram (2nd link in link from the top).Cblambert (talk) 02:52, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Green energy' section 

message: In case deletion of subject derivation should need to be restored, I have revised compared to last article version to read as follows:
"In principle, the inverter current and voltage outputs to the motor are respectively directly proportional to the motor torque and speed, whereas on the constant-voltage AC input to the VFD, the current is directly proportional to the power drawn by the motor. That is, neglecting VFD system losses and assuming unity power factor at AC input to VFD, U*I ~ T*N, where T = motor shaft torque, N = motor speed.
*i stands for AC line input to VFD, m for motor 
*T stands for torque [Nm], U for voltage [V], I for current [A],  N for speed [rad/s], PFm for motor power factor, and ~ for direct proportionality.
Neglecting losses assuming unity VFD input power factor, we have:
#1.732*Ui*Ii = 1.732*Um*Im*PFm (same 3-phase power drawn from VFD input as from VFD output) 
#Tm*Nm = 1.732*Um*Im*PFm (motor mechanical power = motor 3-phase electrical power) 
Given that 1.732*Ui is a constant, Ii = Tm*Nm/1.732*Ui and Ii ~ Tm*Nm; that is, AC current input to VFD is directly proportional to motor power." 
Derivation has not enough to do with VFD operation. Unity power factor assumption for VFD input is approximately true for diode rectifier drives but not active switching device VFD front ends. As stated, derivation is not really relevant.
Cblambert (talk) 18:21, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Derivation of Ii = Tm.Nm/Ui; that is, AC current input to VFD is directly proportional to motor power 

message: As a matter of interest, number of watchers of VFD article (~65) is about 4 times less than  transformer and motor articles (each ~245). I don't know exactly what you make of this but others may have insights worth sharing.Cblambert (talk) 20:22, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Benchmarking VFD, motor and transformer article number of watchers 

message: The sourcing in this article needs some work. In particular there is one [citation needed] tag and some paragraphs have no citations at all. The citation style is also a bit confusing (why are there references linked on their own line below the headings. The multiple citations (although not strictly a criteria) could be reduced. A large number of citations following a sentence tend to suggest the presence of original research and make reading the prose difficult. AIRcorn (talk) 04:13, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Original research inference is dead wrong. Read prior Talk discussions about controversies necessitating multiple citations to counter doubting Thomas arguments.Cblambert (talk) 05:23, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  GAN nomination 

message: I am going to rewrite lead section matching with wiki guidlines
Shrikanthv (talk) 11:49, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we have comments about lead from you reviewer and others?Cblambert (talk) 17:00, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I could write a draft lead and paste it here, that that could lead to a conflict of interest. So I don't wish to do that. Are there any specific questions? If it helps: please remember that the lead is there as both as an introduction and to provide a summary of main points in the article. It should not "tease" by including material that is not in the article; and provided references are given for material in the body of the article the lead does not need to be separately referenced (unless its contentious). Pyrotec (talk) 17:51, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no specific questions and away further comments about lead from all.Cblambert (talk) 19:19, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewriting [[Wikipedia:Lead|lead]] according to wiki guidlines 

message: Can we talk why the lead is being reverted back after getting GA ? , while the current (which was previous one ) did not match with GA guidlines Shrikanthv (talk) 15:31, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I only made these minor edits which was mostly commas and full stops (or periods) and then awarded the article GA. The changes made since then do not invalidate its GA-status. Pyrotec (talk) 15:58, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead Reverts 

message: Good article - obviously lots of thought and time spent.  However the "stiffness" query was never answered (Thévenin's theorem article has no mention).  I concede that to anyone with any exposure to AC circuit theory it's an obvious metaphor, but we cannot assume that background. So I propose the following edit to the first appearances...stiff voltage [low impedance]...stiff current [high impedance]. Note the links to the Impedance article.Shannock9 (talk) 09:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stiffness - gloss 

message: :Dup. of note posted to User talk:Cblambert (a user who has worked a lot on this page in the past) in case he/she is inactive.
I have a concern that I'm not knowledgeable enough to resolve. 
Probably quite unintentionally by its authors, the article tone comes over (on the surface) to be generally skewed towards promoting these devices, or making them sound desirable or a significant opportunity, rather than merely factual info about that topic. For example -
* Introduction: VFDs' global market penetration... is still relatively small. That lack of penetration highlights significant ... opportunities
* Benefits: In the United States, an estimated 60-65% of electrical energy is used to supply motors ... Eighteen percent of the energy used in the 40 million motors in the U.S. could be saved by ... improvement technologies such as VFDs
* Benefits: Only about 3% of the total installed base of AC motors are provided with AC drives. However, it is estimated that drive technology is adopted in as many as 30-40% of all newly installed motors.
* At that point there's a table - but it's not of VFD's specifically, but of general motor installations (presumably to show VFD conversion opportunity?)
Perhaps these aspects of the topic can be better covered under a section "VFD market and adoption" - they are relevant to the topic, but placed as they are, it comes over as pushing this angle rather than providing encyclopedic coverage. FT2 (Talk | email) 07:20, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Query about tone? 

message: The lead section of this article is extremely difficult to fathom:
VFDs are used in applications ranging from small appliances to the largest of mine mill drives and compressors. However, around 25% of the world's electrical energy is consumed by electric motors in industrial applications, which are especially conducive for energy savings using VFDs in centrifugal load service,[5] and VFDs' global market penetration for all applications is still relatively small. That lack of penetration highlights significant energy efficiency improvement opportunities for retrofitted and new VFD installations.
I see no reason at all why the word "However" appears there, the term "centrifugal load service" seems to be very obscure, and the end of the paragraph seems disconnected from the beginning of it. NotYourFathersOldsmobile (talk) 02:11, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extremely confusing lead section 

message: VFD as in the volunteer fire department aaaaa jacques is dead  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Plutonical (talk • contribs) 21:49, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  GASP