Talk:Jungle music/Archive 1

message: this should be a disambiguation page, rather than a simple redirect
Jungle Music was also the name of the music Duke Ellington was playing at the Cotton Club in the 1920s
J Edward Malone (talk) 18:51, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: disamb

message: I think this page really should redirect to jungle_(music) but the text would have to be merged.
:Article is now titled jungle (music).  Redirects fixed --Lexor|Talk 08:02, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I'm going to add a drumstep section. Its jungle drumming with dubstep basslines, not dnb double time drumming, the drumstep snare pattern is an amen just like jungle. The thing is the dubstep kids don't realize this coz of idiots telling them jungle is dnb and they are too young to remember the early 90s to hear the difference, they think its half tempo dnb drumming.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.79.239.106 (talk) 06:41, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drumstep 

message: I find that compared to the DnB article, this article is pretty lacking. I'd like to just redirect to the Drum and Bass  article (which is excellent), as I feel that any distinction between the two terms has ceased to exist (most DnB artists will tell you the two terms refer to the same thing). What do you guys think about that? Themindset 17:02, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: unfortunately, that distinction is no longer considered to be valid by the majority of artists/fans of the genres. Themindset 23:43, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You still got that hot-line to the masses mindset?tactik 13:48, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Firstly, I'd like to agree with Tactik and the unsigned comment above. The views of the majority of dnb fans (which is a significantly larger scene currently (in the UK at least), do not negate the views of the sizeable group of DJs, musicologists, and producers who do see a difference. As with all underground music, it is difficult to find a definitive source to cite, but the fact that flyers and artists themselves distinguish the genres (eg Mu's blurb about Bizzy b - http://www.planet-mu.com/artist49.html) suggests the distinction is a meaningful one. I would say the key difference is the much larger variation in the rhythm of the breakbeat during the course of a jungle tune. There would be more heirarchical sense in referring to DnB and jungle as subgenres of Breakbeat hardcore, with equal status. 
 
My second point is that there would be some benefit in adding a section about the production of Oldskool jungle, which is not really mentioned. The prevalence of certain sounds, along with the emphasis on heavily editing breakbeats, would be worth adding, maybe linking to the Amen page...
 
Also has anyone ever seen a good source for the claim that the word 'rinse' originated in the firing of a clip of bullets from a gun, and was adopted by junglists due to the similarity in sound of the mashing of breaks to the firing of an automatic weapon?
82.3.85.167 17:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Argument for redirect to DnB article 

message: Almost all good stuff, just removed some POV stuff and formatted and fixed some typos. interesting stuff. Themindset 18:17, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  whole bunch of text added by 210.193.133.1 

message: This was added to the article, although it seems more like a discussion of the article than anything that belongs on the page. So it can stay here unless someone can find a use for it. Mushintalk 22:55, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ibiza disagrees - as such words are mentioned on their early tracks, so there's something in it. Try here , , , . It's nothing to do with different gernes. It's a certain form of breakbeat with techno sounding bits - no different than "breakbeat hardcore" had many techno riffs, hoovers and stabs. What else can they be exactly? There's also MC GQ going on about "are you ready for some bloodclot jungle techno?" in that big 1994 track, which name escapes me at the moment, so that's a credible source straight away. Also Five-O going on about it too in mix tapes. The "Techno" is the early Euro hardcore strain here by the way. Same place where Techstep gets its name from. --Revolt 19:14, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The tune with the "are you ready for some bloodclart jungle techno" was The Way by DJ Taktix - the MC was Mad P from Top Buzz. Jungle Techno/Tekno is a term that has been used for years. There were even a series of compilations put out a number of years ago - see http://www.rolldabeats.com/search/title/jungle/tekno and http://www.rolldabeats.com/search/title/jungle/techno. Some people disagree as to how much it is a valid term but for many it's something that describes the 92/93 style of hardcore moving into jungle that still retained a very techno influence e.g. Basement Records. There is, undeniably, a huge techno influence in early hardcore Mrhaste 20:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text added by [[User:62.3.70.68|62.3.70.68]] 

message: Can anyone give a good reason why jungle is differen't enough from dnb to warrant a separate article? --Frantik 00:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the early origins of the two are similar but if you say Jungle you are usually talking about more off-beat, cut up sound (still with strong ragga elements).  The term is still used in the free party scene where as drum and bass is considered more commercial and what is played in big clubs. I think this article needs lots of work but that shouldn't be a reason to merge it.  Rex the first 14:11, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes but Drum and bass can also contain cut up beats and ragga elements.  There's not really any concrete differences between the two which would make me think jungle warrants its own page, at least as far as i can tell. --Frantik 23:36, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Well, I disagree.  I still think that there is music that I would call Jungle but I would not call drum and bass and that alone would seem grounds for a separate article but if there is a majority for merging I'm ok with it. Rex the first 15:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's a bit of a knotty problem isn't it? My feeling is that although jungle did come first and was around before the drum'n'bass label was coined, my feeling is that it is more of a sub genre of drum'n'bass than a seperate genre in its own right - d'n'b being quite diverse as it is... I would go for merging it into d'n'b, but making sure that the d'n'b entry mentions the points that you make. SupernautRemix 18:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  - There are many Jungle tracks you would no way assign the term dNb, and there are probably even more dNb tracks you would never call jungle. There are a few tracks that are stuck in the middle, but when you take a Jungle track and a dNb track you can usually say which is which. Jungle faded to dNb, obviously there was a transition period but the two are completely different. Bit like Michael Jackson when he turned white.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.59.194 (talk) 00:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why shouldn't Jungle and DnB be merged? 

message: I recently took the best parts of this page and added them to the drum and bass page.  I think this page should be a redirect to drum and bass now since there is no unique content on this page.  opinions? Frantik 07:19, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: actually, i decided to just go ahead and do it.. Frantik 07:32, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: cheers. Themindset 20:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect to drum and bass 

message: I moved the contents of Jungle Music to this page.  There are a few comments on the content, which are included below:
--Frantik 03:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Info moved over from Jungle Music 

message: In the UK, Jungle was also the genre that drum&bass and it's various styles evolved from, although this point is contended by drum&bass fans from the USA.
how many times does this have to be discussed.  dnb didn't evolve from jungle cause they're the same fscking thing.  the two terms have been used interchangably since 1993!  i hate typical two step drum and bass and love cut up breakbeats but the fact remains that both can be called jungle or drum and bass. 
In this underground scene drum&bass is frowned as it is seen as being to mainstream and attracting a chav crowd
this quote right here gives it away that you're just using the term drum and bass to signify the popular shit and the term jungle to signify a more underground sound.  i know a lot of fans of ragga jungle don't like typical dnb styles and thus they want to enfoce a division between jungle and dnb, but the fact remains that there is nothing that really makes one drum and bass and one jungle.
--Frantik 21:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since it's clear that this arguement is never going to go away, i tried to make the page less pov.  perhaps there needs to be a jungle vs dnb section on this page too?  --Frantik 21:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I really think this argument is a special case of a broader argument.. There are, as I see it, two strong arguments: 
 One states that the widespread use of the words jungle and DnB in the personal experience of the writers (there appear to be a few of you), are used interchangeably. Fair enough. I know lots of people who use the words in that manner. There are also plenty of people who know a fair bit about both styles of music who hold the POV that they are essentially the same. (I don't have the citations for this, but I'm sure those pushing for this interpretation will be able to supply.)
  The other counters that certain producers, djs, promoters, and ravers use the terms to denote styles which are, from their POV, sufficiently separate to be defineable as different. There are a number of consistent distinctions drawn between the two genres, generally alluding to the production values, rhythm and form. These are enough to constitute a musical difference. Also, as one of the proponents of the 'merge with Dnb' POV mentioned, some ravers prefer to associate with jungle as having a different raving ethos.
I think the root problem actually occurs higher up the categorisation order. The above confusion comes from the decision to categorise Dnb separately from Breakbeat. Doing so allows the popularity of the style to influence its place in the conceptual heirarchy that has otherwise been adhered to. If jungle was nested in a tree that went Electronic music> Breakbeat > Breakbeat Hardcore (of which oldskool breakbeat hardcore would be an offshoot) > Drum n Bass > Oldskool Jungle , there would be little to argue against. It seems silly that Jungle should be denied an entry when genres as closely related as speedcore, breakcore and drill n bass get separate pages (nb. I'm not trying to say there aren't distinctions, just that they are minor!!!).
end of point!
82.3.85.167 18:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  not this bs again! 

message: This new title makes much more sense, and is already in line with much of the content. Reading through the article, I must mention that some of the writting in here is horrendous, overuse of the word "whilst" and random words inserted into sentences, clearly POV statements like "this does not seem likely" without reference or citation... please everyone, wherever this article ends up on wikipedia, could those who are editing the content heavily please try to focuse on writing a quality article.These unsigned comments were made at 16:50, 6 April 2006 by User:Themindset
:good move.. and have to agree that the aricle could use work, though it's in a lot better shape than previous jungle articles.  --Frantik 03:05, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  moved to Oldschool jungle 

message: Hey guys, this page is a mess! Perhaps somebody could clean it up so is at least a solid start article?
--Dustek 10:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  mess 

message: Notable artists who were influenced by jungle are Squarepusher, Aphex Twin and Venetian Snares and Shitmat. <--- The person who added this, is a complete and utter pretentious f*****. And I agree with Dustek; this whole article is a mess. --James599 (talk) 14:04, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Many pages on wikipedia are god awful, because nobody is really interested in them. --TylerDurdenn (talk) 14:57, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  This page is god awful. 

message: I removed the term Dubstep from the section entitled "Peak", Jungle was not called Dubstep from 1995 onwards- no-one used the term until 2002 at the earliest and then about a different strand of underground bass music.
30 hertz (talk) 09:27, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not Dubstep 

message: This is a term i'm not very familiar with at all, and I'm not completely alien to this genre. Can we get a quote from that book? I can't read it from the link. Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:59, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Im not typing out the related text in the source for your personal convenience. It’s there. Find a computer that will allow you to see the source like everybody else. Not my problem. gentlecollapse6 (talk) 23:38, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Ambient jungle