Talk:Racism in association football

message: At the moment this article infers that racism is only prevalent in Italy & Spain. As racism pervades most if not all societies it similarly appears in football all over the world, and over time. For instance, in England as far back as the 1930s, Dixie Dean received abuse from the crowd for his dark complexion; also many black players received racial abuse in the 1970s and 1980s. In the modern day (Eric Cantona & Patrick Vieira famously received racial abuse for being French while playing in England, from a Crystal Palace fan and Neil Ruddock respectively. There is also the infamous Ron Atkinson/Marcel Desailly incident. And that just covers football in England - I can imagine there are many more incidents I am not aware of from around the world and through time. There are also the related (but not mentioned) issues of hooliganism and sectarianism.
This is a half-decent history of racism in English football. I'm sure there are books out there which would give wider scope. Qwghlm 13:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Will try to work on editing, although in fairness it is referenced. GiantSnowman 02:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lack of balance

message: Racism is rife in Spanish and Italian football with monkey chants being the norm at football games.  The big difference between racist incidents in Spain, Italy and England is that in England they are challenged, in Spain and Italy they are ignored or the player who is racially abused is acused himself of causing the problem.  When Spanish fans made monkey chants at England players during a recent international friendly the Spanish press accused the black players and the English press of making too much of it.  When the Spanish coach made a racist comment about Henry again the blame was directed at the English media and Henry.  Fact is Spain is living in denial concerning racism.
The topic should also cover racism in Turkish football which is rife.  Take for example the England player Campbell who was racially abused by the chairman of Trabzonspor.  The media jumped to the defense of the Trabzon manager accusing Campbell of making too much of it.  The next major even was the racist abuse from Galatasaray players towards a Brazilian player who was playing for Roma, again the Turkish press went into denial until the said player spoke out and said "I know exactly what was said as I have played in Turkey" More recently there is Emre of Newcastle who is now under investigation for 3 counts of making racist comments against 4 different players! Even todays (17/02/07) Hurriyet newspaper defends Emre having a front page picture of him thanking everyone for sending him faxes, e-mails etc... in support of him.
Excuse me sir, the article is biased, In Great Britain people think thar monkey chants are the norm in Spain because since the match Spain vs England in 2004 the British Media has created that false image. There was only 2 monkey chants in the last 20 years, (England vs Spain, and Zaragoza vs Barcelona), 2 times in 20 years is the norm?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.109.52.39 (talk) 14:25, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Nothing wrong with the balance

message: "Following racist abuse from FK Zeta fans, DaMarcus Beasley previous instances of racism from Red Star Belgrade.[30] However, Red Star has been defended by black players Segundo Castillo and Franklin Salas, with Castillo saying that "Red Star fans are not racist". [31]"
This looks like it has been mangled during an edit, I can't work out what it is trying to say, so can someone that does please edit it? Pennywisepeter (talk) 14:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll edit it to actually make some sense! GiantSnowman (talk) 14:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: DaMarcus Beasley

message: 3O is meant for one on one disputes, which this doesn't appear to be, so you may need the Mediation Cabal to settle it. However, in my opinion, the information to be included looks on-topic to the section it's going into, as well as being sourced. I'd say keep it. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 01:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:3O|Third Opinion]]

message: Since evidence of reliability of infopatria.pl as a source has not been provided, and almost a month passed since the request has been made, this source is a subject of deletion, and information based on this source is a subject of removal. M0RD00R (talk) 11:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What kind of evidence do you need? Infopatria is a Christian, conservative internet news service, same news service as onet.pl or interia.pl or gazeta.pl. There is no reason to delete the information, please do not use IDONTLIKEIT again. Thank you. Tymek (talk) 17:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please reference Your statements because unrefrenced they are of little worth. And please stop empty accusations of IDONTLIKEIT because I clearly stated what I don't like, lack of evedince of reliability of this source per WP:RS, and WP:VERIFY policies. It is up to you to present referenced evidence of the reliability of this source. To say this website this or that, it's just not enough, you MUST PRESENT EVIDENCE, that this website is reliable source. I'm looking for REFERENCED information who runs this website, positive reviews in academic publications about this website, evidence that it is used as a source in academic publications as source etc. So far banners on this site linking to websites of Endecja, movement with openly antisemitic  past,  or fact that is republishing material from nacjonalista.pl is strong indication that we have a piece of WP:FRINGE here. Cheers. M0RD00R (talk) 18:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Ok, please delete the sentence Polish Football Federation, together with organization Nigdy Wiecej prepared a list of 25 symbols, banned on Polish stadiums during games [32], as this is based on that page. Thank you. Tymek (talk) 21:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. Glad we're moving somewhere. Now how about my concerns raised about another source? M0RD00R (talk) 21:21, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry, but I do not understand. Minister Tomasz Lipiec was interviewed by Gazeta Polska and he himself criticized lack of communist symbols. Your speculations go a little too far and this source will not be removed. Tymek (talk) 21:33, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Guys, I can totally get where you're both coming from, but simply being stubborn and refusing to take into consideration another editor's opinions will get us nowhere. Let's try and come to a compromise, if we can! GiantSnowman 00:44, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: GiantSnowman, thanks for expressing your opinion.. I agreed to delete the infopatria source, but Gazeta Polska is way too much and it will not happen unless we go elsewhere with Mordoor's claims. Tymek (talk) 01:36, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

text: What extremist text do you mean? As for Gazeta Polska, I am afraid you are not the one to determine what this weekly is, if you have doubts I invite you to the WP:RS. Let somebody uninvolved decide. Tymek (talk) 04:03, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Do I really need to? Gazeta Polska written by extremist author isn't reliable per common sense, I think. This pointless discussion wasted enough time already, but if you'll insist I'll bring it to WP:RS/N to put end to it, at least in this article once and for all. M0RD00R (talk) 17:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Infopatria.pl

message: This article has completely lost focus of what it should be doing and is quickly becoming "List of racist incidents at football matches by country". The current information should be used to form a coherent view of racism in football, which happens both internationally and at club level. The fact that no mention of South African apartheid is made is a glaring omission. There is not a single description of the roots of racism in football. How racism differs on a continental basis should be addressed. There is no coverage of the turning point: when racism became unacceptable in football. There isn't a section which clarifies the governing bodies or campaigns which aim to reduce/eradicate racism in the sport. The Stand Up Speak Up campaign was widespread in Europe and should receive more coverage in the article. If no one else does I'll try to completely rewrite the article at some point in the near future and move and reduce the existing information into a "list of" type article. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 17:21, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I started the article with similar intentions to the ones you have just expressed - so fully chronicle the impact racism had (and still has) on football. However, with such a tricky topic, we need to carefully reference anything. Regards, GiantSnowman 17:29, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article scope 

message: Nach Novo is actually Spanish and would have had to have changed his passport to play for scotland even so the reason they didn't consider him was because of a gentlemans agreement between the home nations not play players without  a relative from hat country how can this possibly be considered racism?Scotland the brave1297 (talk) 07:56, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It comes up again.  Novo is now a scottish citezen as he has resided here for over 7 years.  He is elligible to play for scotland.  But the sfa said he cannot because he does not have a scottish bloodline. Although he is a scottish citezen.  That is racism is it not(Monkeymanman (talk) 18:35, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed; in simple terms, it's someone being denied to represent a country they are eligible to purely because of heritage - discrimination pure & simple. English equivalents are Manuel Almunia and Carlo Cudicini. GiantSnowman 18:58, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So it can go in the article thank you(Monkeymanman (talk) 19:03, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I would say so, as long as it is properly referenced :) GiantSnowman 19:13, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no reference that says it's racist. Please provide a credible reference that says its racist and it can go in. Indeed the current policy is not based on blood line. You can be five years at school in the country and then play for the national side. Cfc.csc (talk) 21:37, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If the current policy isn't based on bloodline, then why is bloodline being used to keep Novo out of the national team...? GiantSnowman 21:48, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

text: There is no mention that the treatment of Manuel Almunia was racist in the England section too. So there is a clear inconsistency if you want Novo in the Scotland section but don't want (or can't justify why) Almunia in the England section. Cfc.csc (talk) 21:40, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe because Almunia isn't yet eligible for the national team...? GiantSnowman 21:46, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

text: The article's opener states, "Racism is not simply targeted at players because of their skin colour; players, officials and fans are also the victims of abuse because of their nationality, religion or ethnicity." GiantSnowman 22:25, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

text: I agree with JonBroxton. It appears that the SFA is taking a nationalist view (i.e., that only "Scottish" athletes may represent the national football team), not a racist one. The policy is certainly subject to criticism, but let's make sure it's reflected properly. Jogurney (talk) 02:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The whole concept of national football teams is, by definition, nationalistic.  I am not comfortable with a panel of sporting bureaucrats imposing a definition of nationality that differs from that of the legal authorities, but an accusation of racism seems disproportionate.  As regards comments further up the discussion, there is of course no such thing as Scottish citizenship, and if Novo were to acquire a UK passport, he would become eligible for all four of the home nations' teams.  Kevin McE (talk) 06:24, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Further research has revealed there is a gentlemen's agreement between the Home Nations never to use naturalised foreigners - so Cudicini/Almunia will also never play internationally in the UK - so it's a moot point. It seems the Scotsman souce that was being used to support accusations of racism by mentioning "bloodline" and all that was simply exaggerating. GiantSnowman 10:41, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: But in effect Novo is a Scot now, and he is not being allowed to play for the national team because he does not have 'scottish bloodline' i.e. scottish blood.  If you are talking about races of people and novo being part of the same race, then why did a panel of judges state that a song sung by the rangers support in the past was called 'racist' because it asked decendents of the irish race to 'go home'.  If that is racist then not allowing someone who has a scottish citizenship to play for scotland is racist aswell.  Nationalist????(Monkeymanman (talk) 15:44, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody has Scottish citizenship, not Alex Salmond, not Gordon Brown and certainly not Nacho Novo. As I said above, any organisation has to have rules, and the British rules wrt international football selection are clear and reasoned. As I said above, if anyone with a British passport was eligible for any of the British Home Nations, then you would have wholly English players by blood playing for the other three countries, and England would quickly become a defacto United Kingdom national football team. The other three would cease to exist in a practical sense; hence why the rules are there in the first place. It's sheer practicality - unless you have separate Scottish, Welsh, English and Northern Irish citizenship, you cannot base selection for Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland on citizenship. Got it??? Jmorrison230582 (talk) 16:24, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Whether the Famine Song is racist or not is completely irrelevant. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 16:25, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It gives you a basis on what to judge racism on these days.  Does nacho novo have the right to live here as a british citezen??(Monkeymanman (talk) 17:20, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The Famine Song and Novo's citizenship are irrelevant because there is no such thing as Scottish citizenship (not yet, anyway). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 17:29, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that they are not going to select him only down to the fact of his heritage is racist, plain and simple.  It cannot get any clearer than that.  For the SFA to say that he does not have scottish blood makes that statement the right to be in this article on the basis of that alone.(Monkeymanman (talk) 17:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You got a reference that says this is racist? Nedao.glasgow (talk) 22:54, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Monkeyman - it's nothing to do with bloodline, there is an agreement between the Home Nations never to use a naturalised foreigner! GiantSnowman 18:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Is that a recent development? John Barnes was naturalised, and had no traceable "English Blood". Players born overseas had long been allowed to choose any of the 4 home nations: Maik Taylor, Steve Lomas, Matt Le Tissier etc. Kevin McE (talk) 21:09, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: October 2008 GiantSnowman 21:19, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Taylor, Lomas and Barnes were born overseas (Germany, Germany and Jamaica), but they had parents who were British citizens (Barnes' father worked in the civil service when Jamaica was part of the Empire). This meant that each of them were automatically entitled to British citizenship, but as they had no specific birthplace within any of the four nations but were clearly British citizens, they were entitled to play for any of the four. Le Tissier and Graeme Le Saux had similar status because they were born in the Channel Islands, which entitled them to British citizenship, but they weren't allocated automatically to any one of the four Home Nations. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:32, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So it is not by "bloodline" that they play for England, Scotland, Wales or N Ireland, which is precisely the point I was making.  If foreign born players with a UK passport can play for any of the four home nations, then on what grounds is a foreign born player with a UK passport not eligible to play for any of the 4 home nations? Kevin McE (talk) 16:41, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

text: I just think its a bit of a contradiction on the sfa's part when there is this 'rule' with the home nations and the sfa suddenly spring this new 'scenario', to get players like andrew driver in to play when he is no more scottish than novo.(Monkeymanman (talk) 20:57, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean Andrew Driver, who has played for the England under-21s...? GiantSnowman 21:02, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeh that boy, he is supposedly eligible cos of this 5 years at school thing(Monkeymanman (talk) 22:55, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Being technically eligible - as Driver, Novo, Cudicini, & Almunia all are - and actually playing are two very different things. GiantSnowman 08:07, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Well the sfa will call him up, believe me they will.(Monkeymanman (talk) 13:19, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:CRYSTAL. GiantSnowman 13:30, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

text: I think its fair enough to leave this out of the artice at the moment but if Andrew driver gets picked then it could be reopened, agree?(Monkeymanman (talk) 18:28, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, because there is no reliable source stating that the SFA is being racist. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:27, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: We will see(Monkeymanman (talk) 18:38, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What will we see? Nedao.glasgow (talk) 11:49, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Nacho Novo Scottish racism?

message: This article is becoming a list of some random and not always notable accidents. In my opinion it should be rewritten and should focus on general tendencies rather than on separate incidents.M0RD00R (talk) 21:41, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Clean-up?

message: I've added the overcoverage template in this article to reflect the disproportionate coverage of Europe to the detriment other areas of the world, where similar events occur. Let's work to improve. Plot Spoiler (talk) 22:56, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regional Bias of Article 

message: I recognize that "abuse" is the most frequent verb used to describe the actions described in this article, but is there any way we might make it more clear to, say, American readers for whom the word conjures up entirely different associations? Kansan (talk) 01:43, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: What term do you suggest? Be bold and change it! GiantSnowman 11:59, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The term "abuse" 

message: There are a lot of irrelevant links on the apge above sections where the link has nothing to do with the racism topic on hnad. If ned be they can be merged int the sections.
There are also many dubious assertions of racism (per above). Thhis is more a "list of incidents page" then anarticle on racism in football as it just mentions a few incidents in such countries. There was also unsourced info here for over/almost a year (tags cant wait forever) which i removed.
Since its apparently controverisal iv duly mentioned in the summary the reasons.(Lihaas (talk) 22:42, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Tags

message: This article says nothing of Asia. I demand extra spaghetti.140.198.45.66 (talk) 02:48, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not sold 

message: I've only read the entry on the Netherlands, but that was enough. This is pure propaganda and has nothing to do with facts.
For instance, Edgar Davids wasn't dismissed from the Euros over allegations of racism. No such allegations were ever made except by the tabloid press, and subsequently denied by all involved. Here's just one source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/feb/27/holland-euro-96-racism-england , but I dare anybody to find a source that states the contrary.
The translation of "kleine rotneger" to "short fucking nigger"(WTF!) is not just wrong, it's deliberately false. In fact, it's pure slander, and would be cause for litigation if the accused ever read it...
The rest of the entry is of the same level. Tabloid level trash.
:Why have you removed the entire section then? GiantSnowman 07:54, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Utter crap, deliberately factually incorrect

message: There is more wrong with this segment of the article. It starts - without explaining historical or any other context - with the claim that "German fans are antisemitic towards the Netherlands national selection". 
This sentence turns the whole segment towards a biased stance and treats the neighbouring German citizens as a whole and as, seemingly self-evident, anti-semites. 
I've taken this one (written in horrible casual style) sentence out, as it is not backed by any reference and provides no further explanation (i.e. about the historical nearness of Ajax Amsterdam to Dutch and German Jewish communities, nor does it relate to anything else in the segment) and because it disparages the rest of the segment. 
But as soon as I removed the rude opening sentence, I was promptly warned by an overzealous editor that I would need to provide an explanation for this edit (???), and instead of changing or at least reordering the text, it was merely reverted. And thereby an unsourced claim was placed into an otherwise minimally cleaned-up text (WK : POV). Horrible!
Sure, my IP is based in Germany, but - fun fact: I am, indeed, a German national of Jewish faith and nevertheless still expect Wikipedia to provide a minimum of neutrality, as well as standards when it comes to factual information.
I'm appalled at the level of lack of professionalism this article demonstrates. This issue is far too serious to be left to biased political radicalism. 
This segment is "utter crap", I agree. How does one mark an article for thorough review by administrators? --217.189.199.116 (talk) 22:30, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Agree, lack of neutrality and minimal content quality is appalling

message: Racism in association football exists and should be represented by a proper well thought out article however this page is just an archive of sentences about a mish-mash of various news stories. Not to mention a few of the stories are either not very noteworthy or sometimes not even related to racism. It almost seems as if someone just scoured google for anything to deal with racism and football than linked them to a sentence one-by-one without entirely reading the source. 
I'm not good, or brave, enough to edit an article as sensitive as this but it would be nice if someone could give the article a look over, or at the very least make it a bit more readable as currently it just seems to be a listing of events. Mishka Shaw (talk) 21:25, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is a complete mess 

message: He doesn't belong in the lead of the article, as it then gives undue weight, violting WP:RSUW. Why include him in the lead, just because he's a prominent black player? Do we include the views of Mario Balotelli and Ashley Cole in the lead of this article too?
I'm removing it because it just doesn't fit at the start of the page. Maybe under "France" sub-heading of this article, but why is he at the top otherwise? Why not just put Pele or Luis Suarez or Mario Balotelli there? Solntsa90 (talk) 21:46, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: His quote was added as he is a very prominent footballer and one of the few to comment in detail on the topic; you should move him to a different section rather than blindly remove an entirely valid reference. GiantSnowman 11:36, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lilian Thuram 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It would be nice if I wasn't followed around, as I requested. I've reverted this, as it is sourced to a peer review journal and a top-tier WP:NEWSORG in English - Deutsche Welle. Furthermore, finding additional sources is trivial. A simple google news search for "never again"+Pankowski+UEFA comes up with - Independent and CNN for instance. Furthermore there is coverage in books - e.g. - Anti-Racism in European Football: Fair Play for All, Soccer vs. the State: Tackling Football and Radical Politics, European Football in Black and White: Tackling Racism in Football. Additional journal articles exist as well. It is really trivial to find additional sources here. Icewhiz (talk) 06:42, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Never Again 

message: In the article it says it is used to target minorities, whereas I don't see how that's true. For example, Atletic Bilbao requires that players be Basque, and that also includes black or mixed race basque peoples so it's not discriminating on race. Also it says citizen, and citizens can be of any race but just means they are fielding players from their country. Iagtewpar (talk) 00:17, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whether requiring players be a citizen or certain nationality is racist