Talk:Hỏa Lò Prison

message: "There is a story attached to the "other" Hilton.
During the Vietnam war, American POWs were captured and jailed here. But
unlike other prisoners, were treated well.
They were provided iron beds, they could have chicken or any other meat
as part of their meals (which was unheard of during those hard times),
blankets, pillows and other "facilities".
Our tour guide said this was probably because the communists wanted to
show that they weren't a ruthless bunch as they tried to extract important
information through persuasion rather than torture."
Things became so comfortable for the imprisoned US servicemen that they
started calling the Hoa Lo prison, the Hilton Hanoi.
Of course by now you would have guessed that the key word here is
comfort. And if you are ever in Hanoi, do drop by the Hilton Hanoi Opera.
One truly gets first class treatment here.
--During research, finding this article amused me. 
---------------------------------------------------
so mccarthy was right  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.170.4.108 (talk) 00:59, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: "The two Hiltons in Hanoi" - New Straits Times (Malaysia)

message: Hanoi Hilton → Hỏa Lò or Hoa Lo – Name is American-centric.  This prison has a much longer and better-known history (among Vietnamese) of housing Vietnamese prisoners under French occupation. DHN 23:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
#Oppose -- this is the English wikipedia, and so why shouldn't this article use the name by which the subject is best known in English.  There are lots of articles that are listed under their English names, not their local names -- like the Yangtze River.  --  Geo Swan 03:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: :Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
#Oppose -- this is the English wikipedia, and so why shouldn't this article use the name by which the subject is best known in English.  There are lots of articles that are listed under their English names, not their local names -- like the Yangtze River.  --  Geo Swan 03:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Voting

message: *The article Viet Cong is a redirect to the National Front for the Liberation of Vietnam even though the name is not well-known (and an incorrect translation from Vietnamese, it's "Southern Vietnam", not "Vietnam"). DHN 09:39, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: This entry is overly American-centric and too focused on the use of the Hoa Lo prison during the Vietnam War. Hoa Lo prison had longer history as a prison run by French colonialists for Vietnamese political prisoners. I suggest making the entry more balanced by expanding the article to give more coverage to the use of the Hoa Lo prison during the French occupation.  [04:22, July 30, 2006 202.156.6.54]
:The article is most definitely American-centric, because the phrase "Hanoi Hilton" is a name given to the prison by Americans. That the prison has a broader history, which can and should be explored in future work, is not in duspute. But the name "Hanoi Hilton" is, by definition, a term used to describe a place, an experience of that place, and an experience of it during a particular time, by Americans. That an English-language encyclopedia, of which a very sizable portion of contributors are Americans, and is based and founded in America by Americans, would start by discussing the topic at the point where it intersected the American experience is both understandable and expected. The Hanoi Hilton is not simply a location on a map, it is a historical experience by a country - in a similar way that the Iran Hostage Crisis was year-long event, not a building in Tehran.Dxco 05:29, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That'd be like if someone hopped down to the 7 Years War page and said it was too Euro-Centric because they don't call it French-Indian War, and don't focus on events in America. Be bold, make a separate page if you desire, we can always, always merge later if theres too much gap. 72.199.100.223 (talk) 04:34, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Peter, I was hoping somebody with some information on the French period that I don't have could contribute to this article.  But I still don't see why we need separate articles for different periods of time.  The prison building itself is notable, so it needs to have an article.  I don't see what's wrong with just having separate sections in that article for different historical periods.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hughteg (talk • contribs) 20:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article now has more coverage of the French period, and sections that clearly delineate the French period, the American POW period, and the post-war period.  Wasted Time R (talk) 01:14, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: At the risk of opening old wounds, I'm very much of the view that this article focused entirely too much on the period of the prison during the US-Vietnamese conflict, and almost entirely ignores the other 80+% of its history.  I visited the prison yesterday but was frustrated at the poor English translations relating to the French colonial period so came onto Wikipedia to find out more, but there is very little of assistance.  I appreciate that on the English language Wikipedia there is going to be more focus on the parts relevant to English speakers, but the article is really disproportionately skewed towards those few years.  For what it is worth, I also thing that renaming the article under Hoa Loa Prison should have been a slam-dunk under Wikipedia:Official names; titling the article based upon a nickname used by soldiers of a foreign nation in the last few years of its existence doesn't seem to be right, even if it does pass the search engine test.  I appreciate that there are a lot of people who have put this article on their watchlist have a raw emotional connection with the prison (you just need to see the comments on this talk page to appreciate that), but it part of the job of Wikipedia to try and balance that out. --Legis (talk - contribs) 07:10, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Hoa Lo prison under the French 

message: I'm interested to know if anyone has a list of the U.S. service people who were held at the prison?  If such a list can be added to linked to this page, I think it would be a good addition.  [03:58, April 7, 2007 Jaedglass]
The documentary "Return With Honor" lists some of these names. The National League of Families may have more information. 161.98.13.100 03:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are no doubt lists of all the POWs held in North Vietnam, but I don't know if any list only those held at Hoa Lo.  Many POWs were moved around among different camps, including stays at Hoa Lo, especially once "Camp Unity" formed.  Wasted Time R (talk) 01:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personnel Held 

message: In the Vietnam War section:
"As a later famous former prisoner John McCain, later said of finally being forced to make an anti-American statement: "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."
How could this be restructured to flow a bit easier?  It definitely should be attributed, him being a famous person held in the prison.  Cs302b (talk) 05:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In the end, North Vietnamese torture was sufficiently brutal and prolonged that virtually every American POW so subjected made a statement of some kind at some time.[14] (As one later wrote of finally being forced to make an anti-American statement: "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."[10]) Realizing this, the Americans' aim became to absorb as much torture as they could before giving in, then admit to each other what had happened, lest shame or guilt consume them or make them more vulnerable to additional North Vietnamese pressure.[12] Nevertheless, the POWs obsessed over what they had done, and would years after their release still be haunted by the "confessions" or other statements they had made.[15] As another POW later said, "To this day I get angry with myself. But we did the best we could. [We realize], over time, that we all fall short of what we aspire to be. And that is where forgiveness comes in."[15]
I intentionally didn't attribute any of these remarks or experiences to any particular POW, because they were largely universal.  I also didn't want to bring McCain's name into this context, because it brings with it a lot of political overtones with it that's not necessary in order to illuminate the POW experience.  Of course McCain is mentioned later in the article, along with some of the other well-known POWs.  Wasted Time R (talk) 10:50, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

text: You can find this sentiment in several other articles and books, for example this newspaper story: "Everyone has a different breaking point, Newcomb says. 'They ramp up to techniques that always work.' For those who endure this much, the breaking point usually comes with the tie-up."  But it's not a direct quote, and not as succinct as what McCain says.  The same problem exists elsewhere.  I'll keep looking.  Wasted Time R (talk) 21:48, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Sentence restructure

message: Is this title really appropriate given that half the article is about the French era? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:08, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an old argument.  I am fully on your side: the prison had its Vietnamese name for over 100 years, and was nicknamed the "Hanoi Hilton" only during the brief period of the Vietnam conflict.  However, the article goes under the title Hanoi Hilton and fully 75% of the article is dedicated to the Vietnam war part of the prison's history to the exclusion of the rest.  But I am afraid there are too many people with strongly personal views on the subject, and so proposed moves invariably fail.  Even the fact that there is an actual Hilton hotel in Hanoi now doesn't seem to influence the thinking on this.  If you want to propose a move I'll support you for all the reasons stated above, but most likely we will be heavily outvoted. --Legis (talk - contribs) 11:14, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support a move to Hỏa Lò Prison also, but I also think it would probably fail, because many people just go by what has the most hits on web searches. Wasted Time R (talk) 09:55, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It would definitely fail.  Just look at the voting under Talk:Hanoi_Hilton#Voting above. For better or worse (in my view, worse) there are a lot of English speakers who seem to feel very strongly it should keep the American name for it. --Legis (talk - contribs) 06:27, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Like the others in this section, I also support the move for all the above reasons... I guess the mood has swung completely?  The argument against the move seems quite feeble to me, and the vote (which isn't really WP policy) is from many years ago.  At this point, I'll see if I can go ahead and try to move it already. Teply (talk) 09:02, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV Title?

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