Template talk:IPA chart vowels

message: Hi Denelson, 
On the consonant table you created asterisked links to the consonants not supported by the IPA. Would you want to do something similar for the vowels? There's a Near-close near-back unrounded vowel as well as three close compressed vowels (links at the close rounded vowel articles). 
Just a thought. 
kwami 07:38, 2005 September 12 (UTC)
:If you want the correct semantic, they're bullets, not asterisks.  Denelson83  06:29, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And another, Near-close central unrounded vowel, for English schwi. kwami 15:51, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other vowels? 

message: Just found this.. its an excellent feature here on the wikipedia.  If there were featured templates like there are featured articles and pictures, this would be one.  Good work to those involved.  drumguy8800 - speak? 03:48, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nice 

message: Why does it slant? The open-front-unrounded vowel is below where it says near-front. Why is that? ~  Ghelæ talkcontribs 16:57, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The trapezoidal shape of the vowel chart is meant to approximate where the dorsum of the tongue is when the vowel is pronounced. --  Denelson83  20:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Aah, I see. I think. ~  Ghelæ talkcontribs 07:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slanting 

message: Hmm, it looks like when there is a problem loading the image, then the vowels on the chart are positioned starting about halfway down the chart, with the bottom half of vowels displayed on top of whatever is below the chart.
I don't quite grok the interaction of CSS and WikiMarkup here, so I'm not going to try to fix it myself, but you can see what it looks like by setting your browser to not load images, or by firewalling upload.wikimedia.org. Cheers, Vectro 04:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've fixed this issue. Vectro 17:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chart broken when image broken? 

message: I restored IPA formatting (  ) to the chart so that it displays properly. However, I did not do this in Commons, as I don't know how widespread support is for that template. kwami (talk) 06:36, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA formatting 

message: In both of my browsers (Firefox and Safari), the open front rounded and open-mid front rounded show up with the same symbol, .  This is only in the rendered text (not in the edit window), but I have no problems with any of the other IPA symbols here (such as the common confusion of  with ).  Is this a known bug, or is it just me, or is there a problem with the symbol we've used?  — ˈzɪzɨvə (talk) 06:18, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you using a buggy font? --  Denelson83  14:48, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My default font is Helvetica, and when I changed it, no other font showed this problem.  I wouldn't have expected Helvetica to be buggy.  Odd.  — ˈzɪzɨvə (talk) 18:48, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you please tell me how you did this in Safari? I'm so mad at Helvetica for this issue :P But I can't go back to Firefox... it's got so many problems displaying so many languages. Thank you Kraslev (talk) 07:18, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but I don't believe I ever figured out a solution.  I'm currently trying to force my Wikipedia account to use Lucida Grande, but I can't seem to find a way.  I suppose it's not a big deal, since the one flaw with Helvetica is in correctly displaying a vowel that no language uses, but it's the principle of the thing!  Good luck!  — ˈzɪzɨvə (talk) 19:27, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's definitely the principle! It's driving me nuts! Not only that, but I can't stand the square-shaped R that Helvetica uses. It's so ugly :( But yeah, if anyone figures this out, please share. I'm frustrated. Kraslev (talk) 17:08, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  /ɶ/ & /œ/ 

message: This template and the one on Wikimedia Commons had diverged quite a bit, and both still had some of the DIVs too small to contain the symbols in my preferred font of Lucida Sans Unicode.  I've updated them both now and added comments to indicate the site-unique bits. Not R (talk) 23:21, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  converged with Commons 

message: If it creates extra space (that is, when put beside text, a line of white space appears), then report to bugzilla.96.53.149.117 (talk) 04:27, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  In Articles 

message: The same graph is in . btw, is the commons-copyedit still to be maintained? (that is #3), exclusing the picture. -DePiep (talk) 14:55, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Double template 

message: and .
;Objection: 
:Above, Pi zero argues (in my words now) that the two vowel-templates differ (also) at this point: including or excluding non-IPA-symbols. It is not desirable to have these mixed (i.e. non-IPA-symbols on an IPA-template or in an specific IPA-article). 
;Solution: 
:The template  now has a switch, which enables per article to show/hide the non-IPA symbols (and the corresponding footnote). Usage: , or . The default is 'yes', i.e.  has default setting: 'shownonIPA=yes', which corresponds with current usage of the template (effect unchanged).
;Also:
:Some improvements go along: standard v-d-e box, and "Show chart image" is included.
;Todo:
:Articles that use  can be changed into using . option float=left needed. Then make that template into REDIRECT (saves its history, btw).
-DePiep (talk) 14:10, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Merging IPA/non-IPA symbols: Roundup & solution

message: and .
;Conclusion:
I understand the point by Pi Zero above: one is a navigation, the other is the basic chart (table).
;Solution:
I have separated these two functions. Now  is the basic chart (table, trapezium). Is can be used on its own (as is done in IPA#vowels). And  is the navigation box: standard navigation style. And it transcludes the basic trapezium .
;Minor remarks:
The navbox  has some non-standard styles (non-standard for Navboxes). First: It floats to the right, which was the location of the handcoded version. So the using article pages are not disturbed. Second: it has a fixed width (navboxes normally talke full 100% width). This too is so not to disturb existing page-layout. Third: I rmoved the page (rennamed) tfrom "CSS IPA vowel chart" to "IPA vowel chart". The reason is that the used technique is not relevant to the using editor.
;On non-IPA and IPA symbols:
As noted in the section above (and the template/doc), both templates take a variable option "shownonIPA=yes" or "shownonIPA=no", as to show or hide non-IPA's. Default =yes. 
;Closing:
If this looks OK for fellow editors & wikiusers, I will consider the Merge-proposal finished. -DePiep (talk) 16:05, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Merging {{tl|Vowels}} and {{tl|CSS IPA vowel chart}}: Roundup & solution

message: Discussion lead to a different outcome: 
# The bare table need his own template, for in-line usage in articles.
# The navbox Vowels can transclude the trapezium-table, and do a full navigation-task.
# Including non-IPA letters is by option (variable "shownonIPA=no", see documentation) BUT does not occur in Vowels.
# Both templates have their own function now, and they are connected (which is different from before).
# Dropped "CSS" from the name (by Move)
# Other changes pertain to layout, and are out of scope now.
This has already been implied. 
See also: , with the same construction. -DePiep (talk) 22:26, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Closing: Not merged, solved different

message: Let's remove the footnote A long vowel is indicated by appending ː
* It's not in the original IPA vowel chart
* There are more suprasegmentals (and diacritics for that matter) we could mention here. It's an arbitrary selection now.
-DePiep (talk) 04:52, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propose removing footnote on Long 

message: See IPA talk here. Problem was: the bullet in footnote showed different from the graphic itself in some browsers. Solution(1): The bullet was removed from the footnote altogether here by rewording. Solution(2): Later on it occurred, the problem might be solved by using, in the footnote,  as is done in the graph: . Conclusion: since (2) is less ad hoc and does allow us to use a bullet, it should be used when adding a bullet to the template. -DePiep (talk) 08:17, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Using the bullet in the footnote on rounded-unrounded 

message: At last, I have reached this: the bullet-position is independent of the font/symbolwidth/skin (tested up to font-size:200%). Everything is done by px. The whole trapeziod area is positioned hardcoded. This does not solve the overlapping problem we are here talking. Can you tell: do you prefer 120% or 100% font-size? -DePiep (talk) 23:54, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh shit, it's beautiful! Great work. I think 120% is more attractive and readable, but I have finally realized the source of the problem, which is the font itself. 120% shows up as 15.6px with my settings, and my font (Lucida sans unicode) seems to specifically render the diacritics as cut off at around 16px (and only there). I have no insight on how to change that, if it's even possible. Maybe I should change fonts. — ʀoyoтϵ 10:31, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The font-thing, good you found out, is not my specialty. Maybe you can drop a question at Village pump/tech. There are very good people there, once I get my question right ;-) . The size we leave at 120% then, as it was until last week. Enjoy! -DePiep (talk) 12:02, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  At last: bullet fixed on the exact position 

message: The vowels of the chart now appear very small and diacritics don't appear properly. I couldn't deal with the template because it's not easy to edit. So, would someone please make the vowel font-sizes bigger as they used to be? I think they were 120% or 125%. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 13:42, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The previous well-sandboxed version was thrown away, while the old (and now reinstalled) version does not cooperate well in the complicated template situation. I've asked the deleting admin/editor . -DePiep (talk) 14:45, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tiny font-size 

message: Per naming scheme, see :Category:IPA chart templates, Template:IPA vowel chart should be at Template:IPA chart vowels. Indiana State (talk) 03:05, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not much of a "scheme" but I can see the logic.  It doesn't matter either way since the user experience is identical.  Your change may have been reverted because you accidentally renamed it to "IPA charts vowels." — Æµ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 03:32, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: (Indeed reverted for that reason.) But the point is correct. The "scheme" is shown at . This is a newer naming scheme (10 months old), and exactly the new scheme vowel name was moved to look like the old name they were more used to . The more great an editor, the less easy to accept a change. -DePiep (talk) 01:32, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: @DePiep - haha :-) @Aeusoes - I would say it is a scheme, even if it is not labelled as such. The user experience is actually not the same if users browse the templates, that's how I found the inconsistency. Regarding the reversion of my moves - I myself asked for deletion. After I made the wrong move, I made another wrong move and at the end the possibility of simply undoing the move of the "great editor" had gone. What can be done to overcome the name introduced by the  "great editor"? Indiana State (talk) 11:29, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Propose the name change here, and when it is agreed upon an admin is needed to swap the twpo names (since the new name already is occupied as a redirect). See . I didn't make a big issue of it back then, but I'd still support the change. -DePiep (talk) 12:42, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I'm fine with the change, too.  — Æµ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 17:28, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP:RM Template:IPA vowel chart -> Template:IPA chart vowels 

message: I don't believe the initial remedy to have been adequate, 'cause we shouldn't be calling it the "IPA vowel chart" if it's not that. Also, I see no pressing need in cluttering the template with a footnote about how it differs exactly and why. I think the most elegant solution would be to reword the title slightly, e.g. to say "IPA-symbol" or "IPA-derived"; it'll get the point across to those to whom it matters. 213.7.22.7 (talk) 23:56, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title and footnote 

message: Why is there a bullet after æ when there's no rounded counterpart? There isn't a bullet after ɐ or before ʊ.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zgialor (talk • contribs) 17:58, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The meaning this conveys to me, regardless of intent, is that æ covers only the rounded form, whereas ɐ and ʊ cover both rounded and unrounded forms.  If that meaning isn't intended, I'd say the table should be changed accordingly.  --Pi zero (talk) 22:41, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bullet after æ 

message: To remind people that the trapezoid we use isn't the only way to represent vowel space, I added the original articulatory quadrilateral and the formant triangle. — kwami (talk) 19:25, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think we should put them. This is a navigational template. Those images would be better placed in article space (for the reasons you identify) if they aren't already. — Æµ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 20:36, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  added images