Talk:Michael Marks

message: Alot of people need to know but the article doesnt say  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.9.142.90 (talk) 20:03, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody knows.  As the article says.  Mr Stephen (talk) 20:19, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  When was he born? 

message: Regarding his nationality, there is unclarity across different sources. The sources currently used in the article suggest that Marks was either Russian or Belarusian Jew. However, considering he came from a part of today's Belarus, then being part of the partitioned Poland and also refferred to as Belaya Rus (White Rus), where historically Belarusian and Polish Jews had lived (see Schagal and others for an example of reference ), the article uses dual nationality to address both of the unproved, but most possible options. As such, either 'Russian' must be used to refer to the independent state of birth, or 'Belarusian' and 'Polish' to refer to the dependencies of that time, unless a reliable source with more details on Mark's biography is provided. Please provide further evidence, if found (please note that even though the sources from published books are preferred, alternative resources from established and historical organisations are accepted if they add to a point).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Katlianik (talk • contribs) 07:21, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly, before publishing content please reach a Wikipedia:Consensus on here; it needs to be discussed. The sources you have added are either broken or have no page numbers so I can't check and verify the content. If it really is difficult to determine I'd just leave the Polish and British part out and purely say that he was a businessman with no nationality in the lead. Chagal was born in eastern Belarus, Słonim is in the west; that complicates the dispute. Nationality is not citizenship, hence his nationality was not Russian. Jewish identity under Wikipedia rules is not classified as a nationality either, unless it was important to the man's work eg. religious leaders. Certain sources claim "Belarusian-Jewish" looking solely at the geographical placement of Slonim at present, which is in Belarus. It's like saying that Germans born in Breslau (since 1945 Wrocław) are not Germans only Poles. The source which states "Russian-Jewish" is based on the register from the country he came from at the time, the Russian Empire. These sources for example claim he was a Polish Jew: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Oliszydlowski (talk) 08:25, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Using Russian as what? Any notion of Russian as a nationality in such a vast multinational Empire which driven neighbouring states by force into it is unacceptable. Being born in the Russian Empire is equivalent to having Russian citizenship, which is already mentioned in the article. Moreover, the region was historically part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, hence one could even write Lithuanian. This could go on forever. I would remove all information in regards to nationality and just state "a businessman and founder of Marks&Spencer" in the introduction. In the upcoming week I will have a look into some records and see for any hints. It is rare that Jews from that region are assigned Polish nationality, but a lot of sources do claim and support that (Note that Marks was born in the early period [1859] before the January Uprising after which the policy of Russification strengthened). I guess I will have to do also some research. I am not even entirely certain if Jews were officially registered as nationals in the Empire of whether they were regarded as stateless in the Pale of Settlement. Oliszydlowski (talk) 14:04, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: To reference point 3, I had a look at the earliest available records. The earliest I found so far was from 1944 from the "Jews of Britain" by Paul Herman Emden which states "Michael Marks, who arrived in England from Poland in 1884 and had his first account with Isaac Dewhurst & Co, at Leeds, came in contact with their sales manager Thomas Spencer" on page 478 - 1 Similar claims are made in the reviews from 1950s and 1960s. I typed in "Russia" as a search word and nothing showed up for that time period. It is possible that he have moved from Slonim to Congress Poland or migrated from Congress Poland to England. Oliszydlowski (talk) 14:36, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

text:  - Thank you for your insight. I was briefly unavailable. I will make changes or do some further research in the upcoming days. Oliszydlowski (talk) 02:20, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Nationality

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