Talk:Romanization of Ukrainian

message: [This is prompted by discussion at Portal:Ukraine/Ukraine-related_Wikipedia_notice_board#Transliteration_problem.]
I'd like to fill in the gaps about official systems currently and historically used in Ukraine.  Here's some suggested text.  Please discuss questions, changes, and additions below. —Michael Z. 2007-07-03 23:06 Z
=== GOST 16876-71 ===
GOST 16876-71 was the Cyrillic to Latin transliteration standard in the Soviet Union, established in 1971, for Cyrillic-based alphabets, including Ukrainian. The standard was later adopted by COMECON, and was subject to revisions. The 1971 version used only plain Latin characters from the ASCII character set, while the 1983 version used diacritics. 
The GOST standard is missing the Ukrainian letter ge (ґ), which was removed from the Soviet orthography in 1933.
[Ukrainian letters not listed in the main GOST 16876-71 article:
Cyrillic:     	г	є 	і	ї 	'
GOST 16876-71:	g	je	i	ji	*
GOST (1983)   	g	je	i	i 	"
[Was this system in effect at independence? I think, yes, based on the modifications to the standard accepted in 1995 (below)]
[Was it officially made obsolete or replaced?]
[This is already mentioned at GOST 16876-71, not so relevant here:]
[In 2002, in the Russian Federation, the GOST standard was replaced by international convention ISO 9:1995, known as GOST 7.79-2000.http://www.gsnti-norms.ru/norms/common/doc.asp?0&/norms/stands/7_79.htm]
References
* Rules of Cyrillic alphabet letters – Transliteration by Roman alphabet letters (Russian)
=== State Standards Committee (1995) ===
Based on GOST 16876-71, a new transliteration standard was developed by a Committee at the Kyiv National University. The standard was approved by the by the State Standards Committee ("Derzhstandart") of Ukraine on October 18, 1995.  It was submitted for inclusion into the international GOST 16876-71 standard, and among other organizations, was supported by the Russian State Standards Committee (GOST) in 1997.
[Anyone know the status of this?  How does it work with GOST's adoption of ISO 9?]
References
* Українська латиниця як засіб представлення державної мови в міжнародному спілкуванні (Ukrainian)
=== Ukrainian National transliteration (1996) ===
To end the inconsistencies in the transliteration standards, Committee on Issues of Legal Terminology has been created. On April 19, 1996 the Committee adopted a (so-called) National transliteration system by Decision No. 9. The decision states that the system is binding for the transliteration of Ukrainian names in English in legislative and official acts.
The National system is also employed by the UN and many countries' foreign services.  It is currently widely used to represent Ukrainian geographic names, which were almost exclusively romanized from Russian before Ukrainian independence in 1991.  
A different official system has been introduced for transliteration of Ukrainian personal names in Ukrainian passport in 2004 and 2007.
The system is based on English orthography. It requires only ASCII characters.
References
* Ukrainian–English transliteration table at rada.kiev.ua
* Decision No. 9 of the Committee on Issues of Legal Terminology at hostmaster.net.ua (Ukrainian)
=== Ukrainian official transliteration for personal names in Ukrainian passport ===
The Regulation on Ukrainian passport list rules for transliterating personal names in the passport.
The transliteration rules were set by Decision no. 380/2004 of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine on March 24, 2004. The rules were modified by Cabinet of Ministers decision no. 858/2007 on June 26, 2007. The transliteration rules are not mandatory. Ukrainian citizens may request an alternative English spelling of full name in the passport.
The Regulation on Ukrainian passport was initially adopted by decision no. 231/1995 on March 31, 1995. (But at that time it was not so detailed and it does not include the transliteration table??? Before 2004 transliteration was done according to the National transliteration system (1996)???)
It requires only ASCII characters.
References
* Regulation on Ukrainian passport Cabinet of Ministries decision no. 231/1995 with all amendments. (Ukrainian)
* Regulation on Ukrainian passport, 2004 Amendments Cabinet of Ministries Decision no. 380/2004 (Ukrainian)
* Regulation on Ukrainian passport, 2007 Amendments, Cabinet of Ministries Decision no. 858/2007 (Ukrainian)
==== 2010 Clean-up ====
Resolution no. 55, January 27, 2010, On clean-up of the romanization of the Ukrainian alphabet introduces a new transliteration table, and amends two passport laws:
* Res. 231, March 31, 1995
* Res. 1873, November 27, 1998
The new, simple table appears to combine the most popular features of earlier passport systems and the 1996 National system for official geographic names. Although geographic names are given in the examples, it's not clear whether this supersedes the National system.
=== Table ===
 Official Ukrainian transliteration systems
Cyrillic	GOST 1971	GOST 1986	Derzhstandart 1995	National 1996	Passport 2004	Passport 2007	Passport 2010
А       	a        	a        	a                 	a            	a            	a            	a
Б       	b        	b        	b                 	b            	b            	b            	b
В       	v        	v        	v                 	v            	v, w         	v            	v
Г       	g        	g        	gh                	h, gh*^      	h, g         	g            	h, gh*^
Ґ       	–        	–        	g                 	g            	g, h         	g            	g
Д       	d        	d        	d                 	d            	d            	d            	d
Е       	e        	e        	e                 	e            	e            	e            	e
Є       	je       	je       	je                	ie, ye*      	ie, ye*      	ie           	ie, ye*
Ж       	zh       	ž        	zh                	zh           	zh, j        	zh           	zh
З       	z        	z        	z                 	z            	z            	z            	z
И       	i        	i        	y                 	y            	y            	y            	y
i       	i        	i        	i                 	i            	i            	i            	i
Ї       	ji       	i        	ji                	i, yi*       	i, yi*       	i            	i, yi*
Й       	j        	j        	j**               	i, y*        	i, y*        	i            	i, y*
К       	k        	k        	k                 	k            	k, c         	k            	k
Л       	l        	l        	l                 	l            	l            	l            	l
М       	m        	m        	m                 	m            	m            	m            	m
Н       	n        	n        	n                 	n            	n            	n            	n
О       	o        	o        	o                 	o            	o            	o            	o
П       	p        	p        	p                 	p            	p            	p            	p
Р       	r        	r        	r                 	r            	r            	r            	r
С       	s        	s        	s                 	s            	s            	s            	s
Т       	t        	t        	t                 	t            	t            	t            	t
У       	u        	u        	u                 	u            	u            	u            	u
Ф       	f        	f        	f                 	f            	f            	f            	f
Х       	kh       	h        	kh                	kh           	kh           	kh           	kh
Ц       	c        	c        	c                 	ts           	ts           	ts           	ts
Ч       	ch       	č        	ch                	ch           	ch           	ch           	ch
Ш       	sh       	š        	sh                	sh           	sh           	sh           	sh
Щ       	shh      	šč       	shh               	sch          	shch         	shch         	shch
Ю       	ju       	ju       	ju                	iu, yu*      	iu, yu*      	iu           	iu, yu*
Я       	ja       	ja       	ja                	ia, ya*      	ia, ya*      	ia           	ia, ya*
Ь       	'        	'        	j***              	’            	'            	–            	–
’       	*        	"        	'****             	”            	–            	–            	–
 
* * The second transliteration is used word-initially.
* ** Word-initially, after vowels or after the apostrophe.
* *** After consonants.
* **** Apostrophe is used before iotated ja, ju, je, ji, jo, and to distinguish the combination ьа (j'a) in compound words from я (ja), for example, Волиньавто = Volynj'avto.
* *^ gh is used in the romanization of зг (zgh), avoiding confusion with ж (zh).
=== Comments ===
I guess the text of the 1995 resolution includes amendments.  Anyone know of a reference to the 1995 version, or know whether it included a transliteration table at all? —Michael Z. 2007-07-03 22:05 Z
:Yes, the text of the 1995 resolution at the Rada website includes amendments (but not yet 2007 amendments). It's called amendments, but in fact by 2004 Decision the old text was substituted by new, i.e. the old text was totally vanished. I cannot find the original 1995 text at the Rada website. We are looking for Appendix 2 (if such existed) of that regulation. It would be hard to find. There is an alternative fee-based database of Ukrainian law by Liga. 1995 decision is available there (hopefully, in the original edition). We may eventually find someone who has access to that database. --Novelbank 23:00, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So Ukrainian "Г" is now offcially transliterated as "G", never as "H" in Ukrainian passports. I guess, it's OK for Russians living in Ukraine. A person with the name "Сергей" wants to be Sergey not "Serhey but does it apply to Ukrainians?  --Anatoli (talk) 21:42, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Different Ukrainian national systems 

message: I guess the text of the 1995 resolution includes amendments.  Anyone know of a reference to the 1995 version, or know whether it included a transliteration table at all? —Michael Z. 2007-07-03 22:05 Z
:Yes, the text of the 1995 resolution at the Rada website includes amendments (but not yet 2007 amendments). It's called amendments, but in fact by 2004 Decision the old text was substituted by new, i.e. the old text was totally vanished. I cannot find the original 1995 text at the Rada website. We are looking for Appendix 2 (if such existed) of that regulation. It would be hard to find. There is an alternative fee-based database of Ukrainian law by Liga. 1995 decision is available there (hopefully, in the original edition). We may eventually find someone who has access to that database. --Novelbank 23:00, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So Ukrainian "Г" is now offcially transliterated as "G", never as "H" in Ukrainian passports. I guess, it's OK for Russians living in Ukraine. A person with the name "Сергей" wants to be Sergey not "Serhey but does it apply to Ukrainians?  --Anatoli (talk) 21:42, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments 

message: There doesn't appear to have been any activity here since 2010. Is anyone keeping this page updated?
As it stands, I found it extremely difficult to find the standardised transliteration style used for English Wikipedia. Compare this page to the Wikipedia Russian transliteration standard page. I found the Russian one without any difficulties & it's all laid out ready to use as a reference dependent on whether it's basic, linguistic or technical.
I'm still clicking around trying to work out whether to use this or hidden from plain sight somewhere on this page! Having encountered variations of ï as "yi", "ji", "i" alone in various articles and items, I don't see how an English reader will recognise the a word/name in one article as being the same word/name in another. I think we all comprehend that Ukrainian words/names basically go in one eyeball and out the other for Anglo-Celtic speakers already. Compounding polysyllabic words/names with variations on the transliteration defeats the purpose of informing readers. I know I'm confounded.
Is anyone willing to collaborate on sorting this page out in order to emulate the comprehensible Russian entry? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:57, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is anyone keeping this page updated? 

message: and therefore the article is included in :Category:Romanization of Cyrillic. I re-removed the re-inserted :Category:Romanization (edit) which hosts no other articles about language specific Romanizations of Cyrillic outside the subcategories. Lingufil (talk) 12:10, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ukrainian here is Cyrillic 

message: Would editors please be aware of the fact that, per WP:TITLE, the article is on the subject of "Romanization of Ukrainian" and not on "United Nations Romanization Systems for Geographical Names", therefore it is WP:UNDUE to bold the column featuring only that system of transliteration in a table displaying numerous globally recognised systems of transliteration. This article deals with the transliteration of Ukrainian in general. POV pushing one system recognised by one of many official bodies (and most specifically dealing with geographic transliteration conventions) is unacceptable. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:24, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:UNDUE]] changes to the article 

message: Transcription is the representation of the spoken word.</br>
This weird and out-of-place definition of a term in the article not about the said term strikes me as clearly non-Wikipedian, and, to the contrary, like an excerpt from East Slavic textbooks.--Adûnâi (talk) 03:31, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A nonsensical non-Wikipedian style 

message: You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Odessa § Requested move 11 July 2022.  Rei (talk) 00:38, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion at [[:Talk:Odessa#Requested move 11 July 2022|Talk:Odessa §&nbsp;Requested move 11 July 2022]]