Talk:Submarine sandwich/Hoagie archive

message: My father-in-law, an Italian immigrant who worked on Hogg Island tells a slightly different story.  The men who worked on Hogg Island were not ship builders but rather ship destroyers, cutting up old ships for scrap metal to be used in the war effort. Several men were chosen to be cooks each day. It was their sole responsibility to prepare lunch each day. An account was kept and on pay day each man paid for his lunches.  In addition to hoagie sandwiches, sausages, pork chops and chickens marinated in olive oil and Italian herbs, were laced onto poker-spits and cooked over a wood fire.  As the meat cooked, the pokers were removed from the fire and blotted on split loaves of crusty Italian bread allowing the juices to soak into the bread.  He also spoke of shooting song birds in the New Jersey pine barrens and cooking them on the pokers. Originally posted by 130.49.221.74.
:That fact they were building (and not destroying) ships at the yard on Hog Island is well documented and verifiable.  See our article on the subject (this article unfortunately fails to cite its sources, so let's recity that!).ike9898 20:47, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * The Hog Island shipyard was originally built during WWI to build cargo and transport ships, and about 120 ships of two similar designs were built there into the early 1920's.  After this production run, the facility was used for various purposes including scrapping, but was eventually dismantled and the area evolved into an airport prior to WWII, when many similar facilities had to be built to meet wartime needs. --Kevin Murray (talk) 15:27, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Hogg Island

message: I've read the Delco Times article... I'm completely unconvinced. Nowhere is an explanation for the term "hoagie" as in the Philadelphia based narrative and nowhere is there an explanation of how the sandwich migrated to Philadelphia. Unlikely story.
I don't think the article meant to doubt the Hog Island account. I am sure that the Hog Island account is true. The point may have been that the actual sandwhich was developed in Chester, and DePalma came up with the name when he saw the men eating the sandwhiches. Chester isn't too far from Hog Island.
By the way, someone should post the original hoagie story...
:Here are two versions in a single article: http://citypaper.net/articles/070695/article020.shtml --BillFlis 13:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Read the Delco Times article linked in this article. 

message: I've moving this: "Hoagie rolls are always cut vertically, in the same manner that a hot dog bun is cut." here to the Discussion page because it's not factual. Not trusting my own recollection, I found several pix of hoagies on the web     which clearly show them cut sideways. I remember seeing them cut vertically in some places too, but I can't even find any evidence of that on the web. Furthermore, just about all the hotdog buns I buy are cut horizontally too.--BillFlis 13:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cut vertically?

message: Hi. Please refrain from spamming the Philadelphia portal template on articles that are only tangentially related to the city. While it's acceptable to use on articles relating directly to the city, putting it on articles like Pretzel, Hoagie, and Stromboli is taking things too far. Thanks. - EurekaLott 04:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Portal

message: Hoagies are Subs.  Don't use the word Sub.
:This dictionary defines "hoagie" as a kind of submarine sandwich.--BillFlis 02:12, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hoagie = Sub?

message: :Add  * Merge  or  * Keep  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
* Merge. This is a sub! same toppings, and not even called a "hoagie" in philly.
C'mon guys!Wikiapples (talk) 01:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Old Survey

message: The section on the origin of term sounds far too anecdotal be reliable, especially since the author seems to combine two explanations into one -- attributing the name both to Hogg Island and to the idea that the workers looked like hogs while they ate. Neither concept seems credible. References would be necessary, and I suspect there's a more accurate explanation that would trump both these silly ideas. 
75.24.244.98 19:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I agree, this article contradicts itself more that once. The other is first saying a hoagie is a very Italian style cold cut sub, and then listing a ton of other very different ones and still claiming they are all Hoagies. So now a hero roll full of Tofu is a Hoagie now?!?! BillyTFried (talk) 08:43, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin section sounds too anecdotal 

message: im from philly and no one really thinks or uses the term grinder. i never heard of it till i moved to pittsburgh for a short stint. i think the article has the use of the word grinder backwords in the first paragraph. grinders are not a philly thing. plus i they dont use the word hoagie in pittsburgh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.247.180.48 (talk • contribs) 
I have a lot of friends from Pittsburgh and have visited them there. None of them use the word "hoagie" as the article insists, and I personally have ordered from a shop on the East Side that called them grinders. Someone doesn't know Pittsburgh as well as he or she thinks. 167.115.255.20 16:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In Philly, a grinder usually means a hoagie that's been toasted under a broiler. A meatball grinder is a meatball sandwich, with sauce, cheese on top, melted under a broiler.--BillFlis 17:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've lived in the Philadelphia area for 15 years and never heard the word 'grinder' used to describe any type of sandwitch in the area. I know parts of NY use it for a sandwitch similar to a hoagie, but in Philly a toasted hoagie is just a toasted hoagie. TheNobleDuke  —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 21:24, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

text:  i've lived in conshohocken, just outside of philly my whole life, and grinder is not commonly used, mostly i believe because not many people order them, but everyone i've ever met from the area will agree that they are basically a hot hoagie.  Funbox360 (talk) 02:22, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

text: I've lived in north/west Pittsburgh my whole life and everyone I know calls them hoagies, not grinders.  However, I wouldn't say that the food is an important part of our cultural identity like pierogies are. I've never witnessed a fight over the definition of a hoagie or what it should be called. So there's one more piece of anecdotal evidence for you.72.95.217.2 (talk) 16:21, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Grinders

message: "May 5 is National Hoagie Day."
Yeah... SAYS WHO?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.149.141.27 (talk) 17:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WTF?

message: The result was merge. , non-admin close. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 05:01, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: RfC: Should the [[Hoagie]] and [[Hero sandwich]] articles be merged with [[Submarine Sandwich]]? 

message: * Merge. The Hoagie is without a doubt an WP:Alternative name for the well known Submarine sandwich, and no conclusive arguments have been put forth to the contrary. BillyTFried (talk) 22:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *Note: This is a repeat survey, where a previous survey (Old Survey above) was inconclusive, defaulting to keep.  Many pertinent comments and opinions were expressed in the “comments” section rather than in the "Survey" section.  Consider WP:FORUMSHOP and consider whether the issues have changed or people with higher energy levels will persevere while other become ambivalent.  I'm less concerned with this merger than the process here.  Bill F has done an excellent job at the Sub sandwich article, and I am closer to the fence on this issue, but I'm really concerned about forum shopping at AfDs and by extension this type of quasi AfD through RfC. --Kevin Murray (talk) 15:17, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: The straw poll has been in favor of MERGING from the beginning a few weeks ago and now stands at 8 to 5 for MERGE with one KEEP vote being from an anonymous IP address that’s made just eight contributions to Wikipedia since a year ago this week, and the two most substantial dissenters have ended up being one who has decided to work with me on the new article and the other being an unreasonable Philadelphia-fanatic with no arguments of any substance who just came here to support her city's regional name for the sandwich. Therefore I have begun to move the relevant info over to SUBMARINE SANDWICH and reconstructed that entire page adding many new photos and also merging Hero into it, which never garnered any support for its own page along with Grinder. Please help me make that the best article it can be. Thanks! 
::::::BUON APPETITO!!! BillyTFried (talk) 07:39, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  My work has begun 

message: The conflict is over the the merge of the stub article Hoagie into Submarine sandwich. The articles for Hero sandwich and Grinder sandwich have already been merged. Hoagie was finally incorporated under its own section and merged as well but has been blocked by User:SummerPhD. And all info that is on the Hoagie page now exists on the far more comprehensive article for Submarine sandwich. Hoagie is simply a Philadelphia region WP:Alternative name for Submarine Sandwich. I called a vote that after weeks stands at 9-5 for Merge. Then two people strongly protested and I tried to work toward consensus with both. The first person who was a neutral editor eventually agreed to work with me on the merged article that I've begun that he referred to as "excellent" and the second, SummerPhD, who appears to be a Philadelphia fanatic per WP:Don't be a fanatic demanded I prove Hoagie, Hero, and Sub were synonyms. At her request, I provided many different sources proving so, however she has refused to stop her WP:Disruptive editing and relentless blocking of the merge process, without giving any argument for why other than that I have somehow not addressed her complaints, which I have, thoroughly. Instead of showing WP:Good faith herself, she has instead posted multiple warnings on my talk page of getting me blocked from Wikipedia for calling her WP:Disruptive editing exactly what it is. BillyTFried (talk) 19:59, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: What's the conflict?

message: :Please refrain from commenting if you are already involved in this discussion
I saw a pointer to this merger discussion reappear on the Wikiproject Food & Drink page, and thought I would look in on it. I have edited a large number of food and travel articles, but have not edited any of the Sub/Hoagie/Grinder/Hero articles (that I know of). What I see here is a consensus for merger of the articles into a single article, along the lines that BillyTFried proposed above. The main article would be Submarine sandwich, with the other names being redirects to it. In the article, there would be comprehensive coverage of the all the regional names and variations, properly sourced and attributed, etc.  
And as someone who has lived in some of the various geographical areas involved, as well as elsewhere in the U.S., and has consumed many of these tasty sandwiches under various names, I'd like to add my voice to those who believe that they're all names for the same thing -- an Italian-American meat sandwich on a roll, with significant regional and local variation. And the great preponderance of third-party sources I've seen concur as well.  --MCB (talk) 23:41, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opinion by uninvolved editor 

message: According to Wikipedia Policy, this article sastifies the criteria for a merge as follows:
*Wikipedia:Criteria_for_deletion
:*Wikipedia:Content fork (A content fork is usually an unintentional creation of several separate articles all treating the same subject. A point of view (POV) fork is a content fork deliberately created to avoid neutral point of view guidelines, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. Both content forks and POV forks are undesirable on Wikipedia, as they avoid consensus building and therefore violate one of our most important policies.)
:*Wikipedia:REDUNDANT or otherwise useless templates
*Wikipedia:Merging
:*Duplicate - There are two or more pages on exactly the same subject and having the same scope. 
:*Overlap - There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap.
:*If two pages are duplicates or otherwise redundant, one should be merged and redirected to the other, using the most common, or more general page name. This does not require process or formal debate beforehand.
*Wikipedia:Redirect
:*Wikipedia:Redirect#Alternative_names
:*Template:R_from_alternative_name
:*:Category:Redirects_from_alternative_names
:*This is a redirect from a title that is another name, a pseudonym, a nickname, or a synonym. It leads to the title in accordance with the naming conventions for common names and can help writing. It is not necessary to replace these redirected links with a piped link.
*Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(common_names)
:*Convention: Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things. As a rule of thumb, when choosing a name for a page ask yourself: What word would the average user of the Wikipedia put into the search engine? We want to maximize the likelihood of being listed in external search engines, thereby attracting more people to Wikipedia. Search engine testing might in some cases assist in discerning which of two alternative versions of a name is more common.
BillyTFried (talk) 15:26, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia Policy

message: Talk about showing WP:Good faith eh? Talk:Submarine_sandwich#Merger_to_Sandwich BillyTFried (talk) 18:19, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: This is not a productive way to handle this conflict

message: A) Why don't consider it a fork? I see the content fork policy as meant to prevent articles/topics from spliting over POV or content disputes (Articles should not be split into multiple articles just so each can advocate a different stance on the subject.).  Whether the end result of the evolution of the terms Sub Sandwich and Hoagie may be similar, the encyclopedic interest for me remains in the evolution and history.  While Hoagie may now describe a broader type of sandwich (like a sub), the origins appear to be in a narrower definition of ingredients. --Kevin Murray (talk) 23:07, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Kevin's answers:

message: I saw this discussed on AN/I, so I am here to offer another uninvolved opinion. FWIW, I was born in Philadelphia (Chestnut Hill to be precise), and all of my relatives except for my immediate family live in Philly. I grew up calling this type of sandwich a hoagie, and I don't think I've ever heard my father refer to it in any other way. 
That said, I strongly support the merge proposed by Billy T. Fried. Outside of a few dodgy sources (which are overwhelmingly balanced by many reliable sources), there is no indication that this is anything other than a regional name. The etymology is interesting (and certainly deserving of a section in Submarine sandwich), but doesn't rise to the level of an article of its own. It shouldn't be deleted outright (as noted by Kevin Murray about references and AfD), but nobody is suggesting that; a merge was what was suggested. As noted by another commenter above, Cilantro and Coriander are the same plant, and redirect to the same article. The Hokey Cokey and the Hokey Pokey (which redirects to the former article) are the same song/dance, and the article specifically notes the regional differences in the song and its background. The same should occur here. Horologium (talk) 15:11, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment from uninvolved [[User:Horologium|Horologium]] 

message: I feel like someone has denied my culture. It is very much like someone erased my Irish heritage and merged it with being "white." Alas, I am proud of my culture. Non-Philadelphians will just never understand it, and it is unfortunate. Dan (talk) 07:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well now, that was melodramatic. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 10:15, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Analogy of the Death of the Hoagie Article