Talk:Mesoamerican ballgame

message: The last names Cohodas and Gillespie are repeatedly listed as sources for this material, but the page provides no further information about these references.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by BooksXYZ (talk • contribs) 17:01, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, both of these authors have written various articles about the ballgame. With no year in the reference, it is impossible to pin down the exact source. Simon Burchell (talk) 20:34, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Cohodas, Gillespie

message: My earlier text based on my observations, reading, and research was: 
"Every Pre-Columbian ruin of any size in the area contains at least one ballcourt, often several."
Anon editor (from 66.245.27.203) removed that and added the text: "but most prehispanic Mesoamerican communities had none at all."
I've removed both statements from the article. What is your source on that, 66.245.27.203? Can you give examples of mapped and explored sites with no ballcourts? Or does "communities" include hamlets and villages with no permanent structures? Explanation and clarification welcome. Wondering, -- Infrogmation 18:18, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. I have to admit I was mostly thinking of Maya sites; in Oaxaca and Central Mexico I'm mostly just familiar with the larger more famous sites. Can we be more specific, perhaps starting with something like that ball courts are common in Peten sites but rare in Oaxaca (or whatever the cases may be)? Cheers, -- Infrogmation 09:32, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: How common are ballcourts?

message: What's the aim? How do people actually play? 119 06:16, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I came here looking for the rules of the games as well. MMad 12:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, all that is known about the pre-Columbian ritual/game can only be inferred from the archaeological record and interpretation of imagery- there are no inscriptions or texts from that era (that can be read) which explain or describe the rules, or even (directly) the purpose.--cjllw | TALK 22:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-cultural details scarce

message: I´m writing about the same subject at the german wikipedia . I´m not an expert. Actually, I only have done some google research. My problem is, that I can´t confirm "poc-ta-tok". In this  Vocabulary book it ist called "pitzal" for instance. 
The term "ulama", another problem, is used in the text in a way that goes around the problem. Maybe that is clever. Because, I guess the word has nothing to do with ballgame, but with rubber. I will write ( hope no one will erase that) that it is the Aztek word for rubber and the people who grow it at ~1500. So, there is no olmec-connection, in my view. That is not from me ( it´s internet), but it explains a lot. Yours, Zahnstein --62.227.72.108 08:00, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: poc-ta-tok

message: sorry for the off-topic, but I have to say this- I love the transition in 'Versions of the game' from paragraph 4 (game was extremely violent, graphic descriptions of injuries, skull of losers makes new ball, "stories of the ritual ballgames between the Maya Hero Twins and the demonic Lords of Xibalba") and paragraph 5 (And it's fun for the kids!).
:I just moved out the demonic part here in refactoring but I think that the transition still stands. --Homunq 17:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Great writing here

message: I would agree with the merge, under the name of Mesoamerican ballgame.    Madman 20:34, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you're wrong in that Ulama is a separate game, likely a descendent of the Mesoamerican ballgame.  Separate articles are needed.  An older and ever-so-slightly wiser Madman 13:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that separate articles are needed. Kaldari (talk) 07:18, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge with [[Ulama game]] article?

message: Ok, great. We have the origin, the history which was all very interesting. But, I mean, we need the rules and the gameplay.
: You'll have to invent them yourself (only if you do invent them don't put it in the article). Nobody  knows the rules.Maunus 16:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Check out this YouTube video.  It appears that these re-enactors only use their hips.  Madman (talk) 02:59, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yabbut is their ball 4Kg heavy? And even they have a hard time keeping the ball off the ground. I honestly can't picture it, unless there is something nobody has though of yet, such as the ball being suspended from a wire or something.2.80.239.111 (talk) 02:17, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Rules, people, rules!!!!

message: I think the new article Ceremonial Ball Court should be merged and redirected to here. -- Infrogmation 00:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with the merge proposal, although perhaps at some point there'd be justification for having separate articles on the ballcourt structures and the ballcourt game/rituals. The new article also only covers aspects relating to  the Maya, whereas ballcourts are one of the common pan-Mesoamerican defining aspects.--cjllw | TALK 04:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Another article to merge to here

message: Retelling the Popol Vuh story, with a lot of unnecessary detail, unfocuses your own story. Retal 00:17, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is true, and I pulled out large chunks unrelated to the ballgame.  It still needs work, particularly (I believe) on the long paragraphs discussing the cosmic meaning of the game.  Madman 13:38, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Considerable overlap with Maya Hero Twins entry

message: Please correct! There are two different sizes for the chichen itza ball court given in the court section!
Patrick —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.18.182.74 (talk) 23:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Chichen Itza - court size

message: I've uploaded a 360 ° panorama of the Great Ballcourt at Chichen Itza. Just wondering if it was germane to place in the main article (or other articles) to give a sense of scale for the size.--Rojoxiii (talk) 00:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: This article could use a little brush up language-wise —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.52.45.238 (talk) 14:36, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Grammar

message: Just saw the show "Decoding the Past" on History Chan. They said that they now believe it is the the winning team's captain which is sacrificed as winning the game makes him worthy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.11.103.62 (talk) 02:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This pops up on occasion.  Being the sticklers we are here, we're looking for some more academic than the guides at Chichen Itza or even the History Channel.  There's certainly a lot we don't know about this game (starting with the rules).  Thanks, Madman 01:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I visited Chichen Itza this week and with our tour guide, he also confirmed that the winning team's captain was sacrificed to the gods.  I don't know how much professional information you need about him, but he claimed to us that he was of strictly Mayan decent (he left his village to go to college), graduated with a Masters degree in archeology and astronomy and currently participates in speaking all over the world.  His Spanish name is Antonio Cuxil (couldn't find his Mayan name), and his credentials are confirmed in several sources.  I cannot find any papers or books he has written, but I just thought I'd throw that out there.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.144.227.226 (talk) 01:47, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm...and yet, with all those qualifications and worldwide speaking engagements, he spends his time hauling gringos around on a look-see before they cram back into the tour bus? Somehow, I don't think so; either he, or you, are having a laugh. --cjllw ʘ TALK 04:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So you think those qualifications are worth much, economically wise, in a country other than the US? And even there...2.80.239.111 (talk) 02:21, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

text: We can add this to the article once it is found in a secondary source.  We really really cannot cite "the tour guide at Chichen Itza". Madman (talk) 03:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: With the scholars professing ignorance on the subject, WP shouldn't really take a side.2.80.239.111 (talk) 02:21, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: History Channel

message: The article dwells a bit much on the Mayas in connection with the ballgame.  In fact, the ballgame was as common or even more so among the Aztecs, and it was from them that the Spanish learned about it.  Perhaps the original contributor here is more acquainted with the Mayas, but for balance and accuracy, someone should contribute more about the Aztecs and the game.  If I have the time..... Tmangray 01:48, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  I think we're all just working on our projects.  Madman 01:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a section on the Aztec ullamaliztli.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 10:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the contribution.  Re:the rendering of Nahuatl words-I've heard the pronounciation of these words and in my own experience, besides slight variations among native speakers, I find that neither the "o" nor the "u" renderings fully captures the actual vowel sound.  This probably also accounts for the alternate renderings one finds for all the cognates of olli/ulli. Tmangray 17:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The actual explanation which I didn't include in the article is that the long o vowel of nahuatl has a tendency to be raised to sound a bit closer to the spanish u sound than the short one. almost everytime you find the letter u used as a vowel in a 16th century document it corresponds to a  long vowel. In fact in some dialects the contrast of long and short o has become a contrast of o and u instead. I have removed your additions of the spanish spelling, because that part of the article is trying to render the actual Náhuatl usage. The u-spelling is simply a spanish mishearing of the sounds in the nahuatl language that are unknown in spanish. In my opinion it is an injustice to the nahuatl language to not render the actual words but rather their hispanified counterparts. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 19:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

text: This is obviously a problem which arises in connection with transliterating all languages.  The various official pronunciation systems are of little use to the casual inquirer since they require considerable study of their codes and navigation of jargon describing them.  These should be posted for those who can use them easily, but some accommodation should also be made for others, even if this requires the use of crude approximations.  It might also be helpful to link to any online voice files with native speakers pronouncing the various words.  This of course carries its own limitation in that pronounciations vary even among native speakers, but it would still be useful. Tmangray 22:55, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are no native speakers of classical nahuatl, which is a dead literature language. The only way we can attain knowledge of how the sound sounded in classical nahuatl is by the descriptions given in the early grammars - none of us have heard how it was pronounced in classical nahuatl. Carochi consistently writes the vowel as "ō" while he remarks that the sound is not as low as the spanish o. The transscription of classical nahuatl is not governed by the royal spanish academy, nor should it be used as in the historical sources. The transcription of classical nahuatl is best rendered by scholars of classical nahuatl, and no scholars of classical nahuatl spanish or english speaking render the long o vowel of classical nahuatl with the letter u. Carochi, Olmos, Launey and the american nahuatl scholars use the letter o, sometimes with a diacritic (macron) to write this vowel. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 07:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Royal Spanish Academy is most certainly the ultimate authority on transcriptions into Spanish, not classical Nahuatl scholars.  I would be very much surprised if the Academy doesn't utilize the foremost scholarship in determining such things.  I'm also surprised to hear that there are no native speakers of classical Nahuatl.  Are none of the hundreds of thousands speakers of Nahuatl in Mexico today considered more authoritative about pronunciations of their own language than people in academia?  And why is it that the surviving ballgame is rendered "Ulama" and not "Olama"?  And why is so-called "classical" Nahuatl the only source to be considered for transliteration?  Isn't the common speech, which is most likely like the Nahuatl still spoken in Mexico today, as valid if not more valid as representative of Nahuatl generally?  Because of this, and the acknowledgment that the "o" used to transcribe classical Nahuatl by one scholar isn't quite as "low" as the Spanish "o" (which is clear when you hear Nahuatl spoken today), why shouldn't alternative transcriptions be mentioned? Tmangray 03:05, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Classical Nahuatl was the dialect spoken in mexico city at the arrival of the panish. It has a great literary corpus and the early sources are in this language. The current speakers of Nahuatl speak any of around 30 different nahuatl dialects some of which are very different from classical nahuatl. And no these speakers are not considered to be more authoritative on the pronunciation of a language that they have never heard. Just like you couldn't be considered an authority on Old English unless you had actually studied it. As for the spanish academy the thing that I have been trying to tell you is that I am trying to render the words in actual nahuatl, not in spanish. The spelling with u is a spanish transcription while the transcription with o follows the normal orthography for writing Nahuatl - so the real academia doesn't enter into this discussion at all. The reason the surviving game is called ulama is that it was so named by spaniards. There are no(natural) Nahuatl communities in Sinaloa where it is played. Classical Nahuatl and not modern nahuatl dialects is the source for transcriping words from aztec culture for several reasons. 1. it was the language spoken by the aztecs of tenochtitlan, and most (all) early sources arefrom their language. 2. it was a lingua franca before the arrival of the spaniards. 3.it has literarure, what none of the modern dialects have. 4. its the only language that we know to have even used the word o:llamaliztli, other communities may have called it differently. 5.alternative transcription is mentioned and used in different parts of the rarticle because I realize that it is the normally used orthography by non-nahuatl scholars, but I try to make a distinction between this ultimately spanish word and the words actually used by the aztecs themselves.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 05:10, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Too Heavy on the Mayas

message: Back in middle or high school, I was taught this game was known as Tlatchi, and google turns up quite a few hits under that name.  I seem to remember the old D&D Hollow World boxed set campaign also referred to it by that name.  Rather than alter this page, I set up a Tlatchi page, which now redirects to this one.
::Tlachtli was the name the aztecs called the game, other cultures called it by other names as you will see if you read the article.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 09:45, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name of the game?

message: The local guides explain that the captain sacrified was of the WINNER team, with the idea to offer only the best to the gods. They say also that both captains were always willing to win, for the death by sacrifice was considered a glorius ending. If there is no proof .of this being false, perhaps this version should be included.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.96.143.93 (talk) 08:57, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That'd be the wrong way around -- in order for a statement like that to be included we'd need demonstration that it is verifiably made by a range of reliable sources. Local tour guides and their tales would meet neither of these criteria, I'm afraid. While there's clear iconographic evidence & portrayals of captive/'loser' sacrifice, AFAIK nothing really indicates the reverse. --cjllw ʘ TALK 23:24, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: How do we know the iconographic evidence & portayals are of "captive/loser" been sacrificed, rather than the winner of the game? 99.232.166.204 (talk) 03:03, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Precisely; there's no references cited in the article demonstrating that the losers were sacrificed. Therefore, I have temporarily changed it to a neutral stance until more references are found.--Canned Soul (talk) 03:31, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  They sacrified the losers, or the winners? 

message: What is the source for this strange word?77.162.130.139 (talk) 22:02, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pot-a-tok?? 

message: I removed the statements referenced by Brian Fagan's The Seventy Great Inventions of the Ancient World because this book is a popular press book (i.e. not scholarly) whose focus is not the ballgame.  In this book, Fagan makes overly broad statements which are not supported in scholarly treatments of the ballgame.  For example:
:The stone ballcourt goals. . ."changed the game entirely though, since an immediate win could be attained from them by tossing the balls in the ring, or points could be scored by simply tossing the ball so that it touched the ring."
Since we don't know the rules of the Mesoamerican ballgame with any certainty, we can't say that the rings "changed the game entirely" nor have I seen any other reference to idea that touching the ring with the ball scored "points".  The use of the word "toss" is also problematic since (so far as I have read) the players never "tossed" the ball except to serve.
The other quote is:
:"With the Aztec version of the game, the skulls of losing teammembers were even placed in a 'skull rack' beside the field, and their blood was offered as 'food for the gods'. "
This implies that the entire losing team was sacrificed. It is not known with any certainty exactly who or how many were sacrificed.  
In summary, Fagan is not a reputable source, at least as far the ballgame.  I would want these excerpts verified by some sort of scholarly material before including them in this article.  Thanks, Madman (talk) 20:14, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed suspect material 

message: Shouldn't (Nahuatl pronunciation: /oːlːamaˈlistɬi/) be (Nahuatl pronunciation: /oːlːamalˈistɬi/). With the emphasis character after the 'l'?  Senor Cuete (talk) 16:34, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nahuatl pronunciation  

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello friends.
I feel like it would a good idea to link this article to the Aztec society article where you mention the ballgame and what it means particularly to the Aztecs. The Aztec society article mentions the ball game and is linked to this article as well. Is anyone against this idea? Tdbdh4 (talk) 23:30, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Linking to [[Aztec society]]

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