Talk:Faggot/Archive 2

message: Faggot is not just a name for a male homosexual or effiminate man but also describes a female homosexual or a masculine woman. Article corrected to reflect this. YourPTR! 10:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think I've heard it applied to female homosexuals. Without getting into a discussion of gender epithets, the only equivalent term I've heard applied to them is 'dyke.' - Arcayne (cast a spell) 14:31, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, we aren't going to let you soapbox this. YourPTR, Your. Frankly, I saw your straw man argument coming a mile away. I think I am going to post my comment here, so that way, it can serve as fodder to have you blocked. Enjoy. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 20:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I accept that the above comment may not actually be the work of who it claims to be.  Unless YourPTR! wishes to claim it, let's assume good faith.  With regard to the question of whether a lesbian can be called a faggot, I think we need a good source.  garik 00:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Female Faggots 

message: This article is incredibly biased towards Miss Coulter.  It doesn't include her response to the incidents nor the context in which the word was used.
:yeah, cuz the context in which it was used was TOTALLY acceptable! Coulter is repeatedly, indefensible offensive, and has used the word multiple times. Don't make excuses for her.TrevorLSciAct (talk) 21:06, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ann Coulter 

message: Some concerns were tangentially brought up about the "Usage in popular culture" section, above. While those concerns were not entirely accurate (it is in fact, one of the most heavily cited sections in the article), there are some problems with it. For starters, the whole section is mostly a list of events. The relative importance of these events is never established, and no sense of the broader issues is developed. I'm sure that someone has written a book that brings these concepts together in a way that we could draw on to discuss the evolution of the treatment of the word "faggot" in popular culture. Does anyone have any thoughts on how this section could be improved? -Harmil 18:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it could and should simply be deleted. I don't much care for sections that basically boil down to "All the times that I can think of that someone with a modicum of celebrity said this word." It's never going to be comprehensive and it's generally more to do with the person who said it than the word itself, particularly in cases such as Ann Coulter. Grace Note 06:31, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Respectfully disagree. High-profile uses can illuminate the subject and although we should avoid an endless list of here 's another person who used the term we can find ways of highlighting some of the more notable incidents. Benjiboi 02:38, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Usage in popular culture 

message: Not used in British English? I think it is... we really need a cite saying the term is uncommon in UK English.--h i s   s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 17:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious 

message: :Image:AdParody-anti-gaySlogan.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:36, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use rationale for Image:AdParody-anti-gaySlogan.png 

message: What's this "example of a common faggot" business? Why is this here? Who is this person? It really needs to be gone. --64.247.122.178 (talk) 17:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo 

message: =ru:Пидор
:Added.  -- Banjeboi 18:54, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation 

message: Considering the length of the list, should the guidance of IPC apply and the embedded list spin off as another article in its own right? This may result in the section being trimmed down to three or four choice examples with the separate list becoming the obvious dumping ground for drive-by editors.—Ash (talk) 11:33, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't think so, the whole article is quite short. Maybe we can mitigate the seeming imbalance.  -- Banjeboi 02:46, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spin off [[List of usage of the word faggot (slang) in popular culture]]? 

message: The latin word fasces means bundle of sticks and precedes the word faggot.  Therefor, I find it much easier to believe that it is the root of the word rather than "finocchio". -- 71.195.37.19
:The article doesn't claim that "faggot" derives from "finocchio".  garik (talk) 12:01, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The bit about "finocchio" has, however, been unsupported by any source for over a year and a half now, so I've removed it.  garik (talk) 12:03, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Maybe just a reference to cross-dressing or effeminate dress (as in the first printed reference), fagot/faggot style trim/embroidery - Newest fashions 1908.Hakluyt bean (talk) 07:23, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly; it is at least an interesting source for a particular obsolete use of the word.  It offers no reliable support that I can see, however, for the extension of the use to effeminate men, gay men, or cross-dressers.  I agree with your decision not to go so far in editing the article; that sort of leap would be original research, unless we could find a source explicitly making the connection.  garik (talk) 09:31, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Well, I don't believe speculation should be added to the article (as opposed to this talk space), but it strikes me as a reasonable idea.  The word is identical and describes a feminine finish (embroidery) to clothing, and it seems the first use of 'fagot' in the modern/American sense describes men in drag. The embroidery term it turns out is not entirely obsolete, just marginalised. Hakluyt bean (talk) 15:51, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It certainly is intriguing, and sounds worth following up.  But you're quite right that, currently, it's more a matter of speculation.  Interesting find though! garik (talk) 15:58, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: I question the veracity of the assertion in the article that the term is used as a pejorative for lesbians, or for women of any sexual orientation. I have never heard the term used in this way, I think this is a simplification to suit the LGBT category. Hylobius (talk) 17:55, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Never heard this pejorative used against women 

message: 8====>  <8
colton <3 michael
Nice picture chosen for this article. Completely misrepresents the article while revealing the desperate obviousness of Wikipedia's "LGBT" agenda.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.0.54.27 (talk) 18:48, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  You think Wikipedia is pro-gay or what? 

message: ! In the "music" section, it should be added that King Crimson used the term in the opening line of The Great Deceiver, the first track from the album Starless and Bible Black (possibly their finest album). This lyric is delivered rather aggressively and abruptly. This was back in 1974, a full 11 years prior to Dire Straits. Anyhow, the line goes, "Health food faggot..." etc.
:You have been misinterpreting the line though. King Crimson's mention of a 'health food faggot' is simply a reference to a well known British food item akin to a meat rissole, but made of healthy vegetables. It would have no place in the sense of this article. 21st CENTURY  GREENSTUFF 16:17, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  King Crimson 

message: I'm glad to see the mention of a recent south park episode that featured the word faggot, but that episode itself was made to satirise the already changing use of the word. The word 'faggot' is currently being used by today's younger people to refer to people who are overtly self-obsessed, emotional, or simply foolish. I'm afraid to say that I haven't got any references to published information on this subject on me... I'll take a look around the internet later and see if I can find anything. Anyway, due to the nature of this word, I think it's highly relevant to the article. Gigacannon (talk) 14:28, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  More recent use 

message: Is it possible that he was an 'inspiration' since he was an old weird man with boys [to get the negative stereotype]. Are there sources supporting it? --212.54.222.41 (talk) 22:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Inspiration for what?  Alatari (talk) 22:51, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess he's suggesting that he was the inspiration for the word "fag".  Either this is a joke or our anonymous poster hasn't bothered to actually read the article.  In case it is a serious question: no, it's not possible. garik (talk) 11:01, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

text: I was using WP:ASSUME... Alatari (talk) 16:44, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fagin from Oliver! the Movie Adaptation 

message: Please consider adding this to the Music section of the article.
Patty Griffin uses the word 'faggot' in her song Tony.  The song is about a classmate of hers from high school who committed suicide.
:. You had a reference so I added it to the bottom of the section. Chevymontecarlo 06:13, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use in the song "Tony" by Patty Griffin 

message: This is obviously an attempt to promote her film. A picture of the "fagbug" is not required to describe the slang term faggot.
Recommend its immediate deletion.
:It's important that it be there to show its colloquial usage and how it has actually been embraced by some homosexual people. It should stay. I was also going to add that you should sign your messages with four tildes, but you have posted without signing in...... might I suggest that you still sign it with that anyway? <B>Kuliwil</B> <I>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kuliwil</I> 06:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove FagBug reference 

message: i need to change some wrong on info. Thank you
Kkkguy (talk) 21:01, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Please specify what needs to be changed, and what it should be changed to, and then replace the edit request template. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 00:42, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from Kkkguy, 14 November 2010 

message: Why is it that articles such as Wanker state that the word ORIGINALLY meant 'one who wanks', but now is just a generic insult that usually "conveys contempt, not commentary on sexual habits", whilst Faggot states that the word IS a derogatory term for homosexuals?
In my experience (which is admittedly biased by not hanging out with biggots), 'faggot' is just a generic insult, which no more NECCESARILY means "I think you're gay and that's bad" than wanker NECCESARILY means "I think you masturbate, and that's bad" (actually, it also has a specific, non-homosexual meaning).
iow, why is the article 'wanker' about the use of 'wanker' as an insult, whereas the article 'faggot' is about it's use as a homophobic insult?
Barring any complaints, i'm going to re-write this article to focus on faggot as a generic insult, with etymology sections and a section specifically focusing on it's homophobic usage, and an 'other uses' section (no deletion, just addition and refactoring). --Arkelweis (talk) 03:16, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure there's actually as much to be done as you imply. You're right that "faggot" doesn't necessarily imply homosexuality, but it very frequently does and the comparison with "wanker" is a little misleading. "Faggot" is still frequently used to denigrate gay people (even if it's also used with no reference to them), while "wanker" is very rarely used to actually imply that the target masturbates a lot. However, I so think we could do with adding a good source for its wider pejorative usage (which definitely exists).  And we could certainly do with saying more about that in the other uses section. All the same, I think this falls far short of a rewrite, which would be quite unnecessary. garik (talk) 19:30, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, OK, not a re-write, just a slight refactoring to focus less exclusively on it's 'homophobic slur' aspect. Will keep my eyes open for a reference as to it's wider pejorative use --Arkelweis (talk) 04:58, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Focus on etymology 

message: At the end of the 'Use in Britain' article, there is a reference to "House of Commons" (linked). Would someone please insert "British" in front of that reference. Yes, I know it's in the "Use in Britain" section, but it doesn't hurt to be clear about it. Canada has a "House of Commons" too.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.55.180.101 (talk) 05:20, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please add 'British' 

message: The etymology section should mention the notion of bundles of sticks: in essence, "kindling" (thus, a "flaming" homosexual male).  This is evident in "fag" as british slang for cigarrette, and faggot/faggotto as the german and italian (respectively) terms for the musical instrument bassoon, which resembles a bundle of sticks. Faggot as kindling is a very old meaning, attested before the 19th century in the Oxford Englsh Dictionary.  As a slang word, there should be a a Folk Etymologies section to contain the plethora of popular guesswork of the word's origins. This would provide an encyclopedically correct venue for popular wisdom many wikipedians want to contribute. 
So there's really no connection between 'fagging' in British public schools and the American usage? Let's see... boys, away from home in a single-sex community, with older, adolescent boys demanding 'service' from their pre- and pubescent juniors. Yeah, I'm sure there was nothing going on there. This usage - very common in English literature - doesn't even make the 'Use in Britain' section? How can that be? I'm not adding it in without citations, because it would be OR, but I've certainly seen this explanation for the origin of the term in writing in the past. 
MarkinBoston (talk) 01:30, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can find a reliable citation for it, put it in. I have a feeling it was mentioned in an earlier version of this article, but removed for being unsupported; articles like this attract unsupported claims. Bear in mind that coincidence is a much more common explanation for similarities between words than people imagine (consider German haben and Latin habere. Both words in Indo-European languages that mean "have", yet the similarity is coincidental). In this particular case we also have the problem that US fag is an abbreviation of faggot, while British fag is not. garik (talk) 03:37, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Boy is the wrong kind of source to use. It says nothing about the connection of the British term fag with the American term fag(got), and would be an unreliable source if it did. However, I notice that the Online Etymological Dictionary mentions the possibility of a connection, so I've included a mention here too. garik (talk) 06:27, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin issues 

message: Not mentioned at all on this page is that the word Faggot is in coomon use in the UK as the name of a food http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(food) 
Koppert79 (talk) 23:45, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from , 22 October 2011 

message: * I wanted to mention that the term "fag" actually derives from the Yiddish word "fagala" to refer to a male homosexual. This may have become associated with the term "faggot" with a bundle of firewood, particularly when this term applied to a cigarette and shortened to "fag."
**Yeah, sure. This is what Zohan says. Lothar Klaic (talk) 21:32, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If someone wants to know about homosexuality (under any name) and speaks English well enough to understand the article, they're most likely to search for "homosexual" or "homosexuality". If someone searches for "faggotry", I think they want to know what "faggotry" means, and this article is better suited to their needs. garik (talk) 15:12, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not so sure.  I often search for terms using their informal names, and expect to read the article to describe the thing itself, not the origin of the term.  For example, a search for "church key" takes one to an article on can openers.  The reason I am writing is that I was surprised to land on Faggot_(slang), not Homosexuality.  Perhaps it would make sense to have a disambiguation page and let the user decide which article he wants. Tang Weijun (talk) 01:31, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing to disambiguate. And the article about homosexuality is just one more mouse click away. And (the non-slang equivalent of) faggotry is not the same as homosexuality. Lothar Klaic (talk) 02:11, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I only know faggotry to mean male homosexuality such as Issa Atta.  What is the non-slang equivalent? Tang Weijun (talk) 02:40, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You got it right: "male homosexuality" is the non-slang equivalent.  In wikipedia we separate slang-relelated articles from non-slang ones, for a number of reasons. Lothar Klaic (talk) 19:38, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

text: In any case, dismayed though you may be that faggotry doesn't link to homosexuality, niggers doesn't link to Black people, and popery doesn't link to Catholicism, it ain't gonna change. garik (talk) 13:31, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question about Redirect 

message: Most articles have a relevant picture at the top.  A faggot model car is really not the same as a picture of a faggot.  Could someone replace the car with a picture of a faggot?  Thanks!70.176.239.63 (talk) 09:30, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why are there no faggot pictures? 

message: Yes, we all know about how this has been applied to gay men, but for decades there's also been an alternative connotation of weakness, cowardice, incompetence, and the like without really making any claims about the target's sexuality. I find it curious that any references to this usage have been purged from the article over the past few years. What gives? Vranak (talk) 15:06, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right that this is a peculiar omission. It may be that earlier references to it (assuming there were any) were poorly written or sourced. Why not add something yourself? The only tricky part is finding sources (which, ideally, are needed even for what seems blindingly obvious) and integrating any addition into the current text. garik (talk) 16:40, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article utterly ignores the more common usage of this slur 

message: If you had studied linguistics you wuld know that in the English language male pronouns are given precedence over female pronouns and this often makes inroads into nouns as well. Take for instance the google search for she's a homosexual (86 returns) and compare it with he's a homosexual (9840 returns). the female equivalent has 1% usage to its male counterpart. Does that mean there are 100 times more male homosexuals than female homosexuals? 
Also, he's a homosexual (1,160,000 returns) vs she's a homosexual (45,000 returns) meaning roughly 5 per cent comparison usage. Then compare he's a faggot (518,000 returns) with she's a faggot (79,100 returns) meaning roughly 15% comparison usage. This means that faggot is used 3 times more to describe women than homosexual when compared to men. When you google "her a faggot" (243,000 returns) with "her a homosexual" (28,000 returns) you again get faggot used for women 3 times more. Plus the number of search returns are second only to "she's a lesbian". 
From my search you get that that faggot is both widely used for women plus it is used more frequently than other synonmyms. I could easily find scores of sources where faggot is used for females, but the point i'm trying to make is that google citations don't often give a consistent definition, and in such ambiguous cases we should take the safe side and avoid giving narrow definitions ourselves.
:I doubt that you have studied linguistics. As for me, assume what you want. For the record, Pass a Method is referring to these edits (especially mine):. As for Pass a Method's above argument, it is quite clear that with regard to men and women and as a slur, faggot most commonly refers to a gay man. The vast majority of WP:Reliable sources, including those by LGBT organizations, show this. This is also clear by the fact that the Wikipedia Faggot article is significantly more about boys/men than girls/women; it's not that way because people were WP:Cherry picking sources. Pass a Method's attempt to use Wikipedia to broaden the meaning of term is more of the WP:Advocacy Pass a Method often shows on Wikipedia. And by the way, Pass a Method should read Wikipedia:Search engine test. Flyer22 (talk) 01:42, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Whats next, i should study more on mathematics? lol Pass a Method talk 01:55, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  I reverted you because i did not see a rebuttal to my argument, except for a patronizing postuing, lack of focusing on content and linking to guidelines i already know about. Pass a Method talk 02:02, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Search engine test indeed concerns mathematics, and your failure to see why your Google test is deeply flawed is similar to your failure to see why the significant majority of your Wikipedia edits are deeply flawed; many editors keep seeing that (your deeply flawed editing) and bringing that to your attention, but, as usual, you go about your merrily way. That is why you reverted, in addition to being a known WP:Edit warrior. I reverted you again because of all of that. You claim to know about Wikipedia guidelines, but barely follow them. And that is most relevant to any Wikipedia edit you make. Flyer22 (talk) 02:09, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, i've interacted with half a dozen editors who use google search engine the same way I do. Are you somehow more enlightened than the rest of us? if so, please share and i will be canvassing all the editors who somehow missed your extraordinary discovery. Pass a Method talk 02:15, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: If any editor has used Google the way that you have done above to reach a conclusion as to what a term most commonly refers to, then they have also used it wrongly in that regard. And the edit you were most recently edit warring over here is redundant. Additionally, this edit further shows your lack of understanding as to how Wikipedia is supposed to work. Adding "a bunch of reliable sources" for something does not make it the most common use of a term; what you have just done, suspiciously without adding URLs to help verify your content, is the very definition of WP:Cherry picking. Flyer22 (talk) 02:22, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  The editors i have in mind are in fairly good standing so i doubt that they have used it wrongly. But if you tell me how i used it wrongly i will consult those editors and i will see who's correct. Nobody's perfect and i will concede with an apology if i'm wrong. Pass a Method talk 02:29, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: We should be going by WP:Due weight on this matter, a policy that you often disregard, not what a few editors you favor state...and especially not if they apply the "Wikipedia:Search engine test" the way that you do. You seriously need to read all of that page; it's obvious that you have not. Almost all dictionaries and encyclopedias on the term faggot as a slur, most literature on the term faggot as a slur, put significantly more emphasis on the term with regard to boys/men. And yet here you are trying to present it as equally, and even more so, referring to lesbian or bisexual women. The term dyke refers to them significantly more as a slur than faggot does. I want no apology from you. I want you to start editing Wikipedia the way that you are supposed to edit it, but that continually proves to be too much to ask for. Flyer22 (talk) 02:44, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually, the fact that the lede repeats thrice the linkage to men, and once to a neutral "homosexual" and only once to lesbians makes this a faily balanced intro i think. Pass a Method talk 02:49, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Refer to my comments above. You repeatedly violate WP:BALASPS and WP:VALID (both parts of WP:Neutral/WP:Due weight), and, as usual, you either don't seem to understand that or just don't care. Flyer22 (talk) 02:54, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

text: It's hard to become motivated to respond to a proposal headed "Compromise" as articles are not balanced halfway between right and wrong. The proposed wording is less wrong than previous suggestions, but the the current "used chiefly in North America primarily to refer to a gay man" is fine. Notice that "primarily" does not mean "never ever used for anything else". Why is there a need to change the article? Johnuniq (talk) 00:33, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Linguistics 

message: As a compromise i propose changing the opening sentence to "is a pejorative term used chiefly in North America primarily to refer to gay people, especially gay men". Does anyone oppose that? Pass a Method talk 15:06, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's hard to become motivated to respond to a proposal headed "Compromise" as articles are not balanced halfway between right and wrong. The proposed wording is less wrong than previous suggestions, but the the current "used chiefly in North America primarily to refer to a gay man" is fine. Notice that "primarily" does not mean "never ever used for anything else". Why is there a need to change the article? Johnuniq (talk) 00:33, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Compromise 

message: That urban legend about the origin of the word is still around an in use.  The "used to be" needs to be changed to "is." JayHubie (talk) 23:54, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "...used to be an urban legend..."??? 

message: What is the source of this statement? as it doesn't seem to be backed up anywhere in the article. 
"Its use has spread from the United States to varying extents elsewhere in the English-speaking world through mass culture, including film, music, and the Internet"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.196 (talk) 12:06, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: This is military slang. Fag = fatigue, I.e. Any manual labour, e.g. Trench digging, carrying stores. Abbreviated to 'fag.'  In written orders.
Schoolboy 'Fags' were young students who served as orderlies for older ones. The relationship was non-sexual, and was designed to teach respect. 121.44.192.134 (talk) 05:50, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  British use of 'fag' 

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replies: text: Fixed. Staszek Lem (talk) 00:09, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on [[Faggot (slang)]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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I have just modified  on Faggot (slang). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20091107225343/http://www.thrfeed.com:80/2009/11/glaad-protests-south-park-fbomb-episode.html to http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/11/glaad-protests-south-park-fbomb-episode.html
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Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 18:22, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified