Talk:Tottenham Hotspur F.C. Under-23s and Academy

message: AS Roma had an option to buy him that expired on April 30th. There's no mention of the deal being made permanant and he's not on the official site in any of the updated academy or reserve squads. I've removed him for now as I didn't know if it was worth putting him into the reserve squad as the official site hasn't listed him there when they updated it and it seems unlikely he'll be a Tottenham player next season. Any suggestions on whether to include him or not? Mattgibbins 14:05, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rodrigo Defendi

message: If they have been released, do we need to write down released? Shouldn't we just remove them from the article?? Govvy (talk) 16:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Released players? 

message: Is there any evidence that Radwan Hamed, Lee Butcher and Matt Wells have left the club?  They have disappeared from the list at the end of last season.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.106.253.19 (talk) 21:54, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well Radwan is still appearing on the THFC squad list. But the other two are not. Radwan and Butcher were removed here and Wells here all by  User:88.106.255.172. Unless other have info suggest you restore Radwan at least. and also follow  with a google search as there is no info on the THFC site Tmol42 (talk) 22:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Three players gone? 

message: The image :Image:Tottenham Hotspur Badge.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
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thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Tottenham Hotspur Badge.png

message: There is no "Reserve" team this season (2009/10). Perhaps it should be changed to "Professionals" in line with the official Spurs website. Also the Academy squad list has been updated on the official website and alot of players have "graduated" up.
How about removing the whole page?  The 'professionals' could be added into the main squad on the main Tottenham page and there could be a new Academy section added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.54.63 (talk) 11:36, 15 August 2009
:Changing the titling is fine, but I think the page also speaks for the history of the Academy, I don't it needs to be moved at all. This page was created because the main roster was getting far too big. Govvy (talk) 15:48, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be a good idea to add to the title.These players are are considered 'professionals' but there will still be reserve matchs just not in a league format.(Jonnyb227 (talk) 11:22, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Reserves" and Academy Players 

message: The academy manager is not Alex Inglethorpe. He is the U18 Manager. John McDermott is the Academy Manager. Look on the official site. http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/academy/academy_about.html
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.173.5.197 (talk) 12:26, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Have update the list in the article and linked to the page there. Govvy (talk) 15:48, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Academy Manager 

message: He finally seems to have left. He is no longer listed on the official Spurs site.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spurs1981 (talk • contribs) 13:49, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Radwan Hamed 

message: There is no infomation reguardin this season do people think that we should move what was written in 'Reserve' section at te top saying "The Club announced on 12 June 2009 that for the 2009/2010 season it would not be entering a team in the Reserve League. Instead the reserve players would be loaned out for first team experience, and if neccesary friendly matches would be arranged as required during the season to test out players returning from injury.[1]" just a thought. (Jonnyb227 (talk) 09:18, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Season 09/10 

message: Where did the info that Jansson has been given 43 come from?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.35.5.243 (talk) 17:02, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oscar Jansson - 43 

message: has David beckham been at the spurs academy? Apparently according to his page he did.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.13.26.73 (talk) 22:59, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  David Beckham 

message: The Swedish goalkeeper Oscar Jansson is playing for Tottenham Reserves. But every time I but him in the squad, someone delete him. Why?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.70.223.237 (talk) 16:05, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oscar Jansson??? 

message: I have just reverted back the page move of this article to Tottenham Hotspur F.C. Reserves and Academy from Tottenham Hotspu 'B', which is incorrect If there has been some WP policy change perhaps the editor concerned would be polite enough to come here first and explain the justification for this.Tmol42 (talk) 14:18, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Title 

message: We have not had a reserve team for several years now and I think it's important that the 'professionals' are listed on the main page whether they are in the squad of 25 or not.  Unless they are Academy players they are very much part of the main squad and are potential first team players, particularly if U21 and therefore do not need to be named in the main Prem squad list.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.169.162.214 (talk) 16:03, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time to move the professionals onto the main Tottenham page? 

message: Who?!Starling (talk) 09:45, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Martín Chamán 

message: What qualifies a player as "notable"? I doubt that some of the players listed have even made a full first team appearance... and many of them have moved on not to be heard of again...Starling (talk) 04:34, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I was considering this list, either stripping it right down or getting rid of it completely. Govvy (talk) 12:49, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: "Notable" Academy graduates

message: Graduates of Tottenham's academy.
NB: Bold players are still playing for the club.
* Paul-Jose M'Poku
* Tomáš Pekhart
* Zaine Francis-Angol
* Massimo Luongo
* Jacques Maghoma
* Lee Angol
* Troy Archibald-Henville
* Nick Barmby
* Lee Barnard
* Andy Barcham
* John Bostock
* Nathan Byrne
* Sol Campbell
* Tom Carroll
* Stephen Clemence
* Steven Caulker
* Peter Crouch
* Charlie Daniels
* Simon Dawkins
* Chris Day
* Ryan Fredericks
* Mark Gower
* Micky Hazard
* Ronnie Henry
* Glenn Hoddle
* David Howells
* Philip Ifil
* Johnnie Jackson
* Harry Kane
* Michael Kightly
* Ledley King
* Cameron Lancaster
* Charlie Lee
* Jake Livermore
* Dean Marney
* Ryan Mason
* Jonathan Obika
* Jamie O'Hara
* Kudus Oyenuga
* Tony Parks
* Dean Parrett
* Jamie Redknapp
* Danny Rose
* Vinny Samways
* Adam Smith
* Andros Townsend
* Walter Tull
* Ian Walker
* Luke Young
* Dorian Dervite
* Terry Dixon
* Stephen Carr
* Cian Hughton
* Chris Hughton
* Stephen Kelly
* Mark Yeates
* Paul McVeigh
* Yaser Kasim
* Jordan Archer
* Yuri Berchiche
* Oscar Jansson
* Adel Taarabt
* Amir Abedzadeh
Moved here from main page, Could use some of the names, I think it would be better to construct paragraphs about the real notable players who have come out of the Tottenham academy. Govvy (talk) 14:46, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Notable Academy graduates

message: This article should be split up into 2 articles like it is done about the Arsenal academy and the reserves. --Sine Cera, Infobesity (talk) 12:58, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? There isn't too much on the page, just enough and it's hardly being maintained correctly! Govvy (talk) 13:32, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split it up 

message: Unless I have mis-understood the intent of the article, I have to say that the Reserves traditionally played in the Football Combination and that Spurs were founder members in 1915. The Combination was in fact a WW1 regional league that was formed so that there would still be football after the Football league was suspended in 1915. And then became the "reserves comp" when the league was started in 1919. The "A" team were in fact the third team and played in the Metropolitan League. There is a wiki page on this league and shows "Spurs A" winning comps between 1963-7 when you list them as playing in the Eastern Counties League. I had no knowledge that Spurs ever played in that league, though I have since seen the Wiki article. However, they did field a further two teams in the South East Counties League in both Div 1 and 2. These teams were referred to as the "B team" (div1) and the "Juniors" (div 2). I think you are confusing the "Reserves" which can best be described as the "second team" with the "A" Team which was the "third team"46.7.85.68 (talk) 15:29, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Football Combination League 

message: I propose that Tottenham Hotspur F.C. Academy be merged into Tottenham Hotspur F.C. Reserves and Academy, with the article also ideally renamed to Tottenham Hotspur  F.C. Under-23s and Academy or similar to reflect both aspects of its content. 
The Under-23 side (previously U-21 and Reserves) is one team within the academy setup. The fact that there are so many U-18 players on the U-23 squad list shows their close level of integration. I bekeive the Academy article was actually an offshoot of the Reserves in 2014, although the only comment I could see other than the suggestion was not in favour of the idea.
Both articles are also fairly weak in terms of external sources and a combined article would provide a stronger basis for demonstrating their notability for being retained in the encyclopedia. Recent discussions at WP:FOOTY have indicated that reserve and/or youth team articles which are unconvincing in terms of notability or verifiability may be considered for deletion - see here (or here if archived). I don't support any blanket removal of youth/reserve articles but I think one to cover the whole system for each club would show a more credible argument for being kept.
Merging the articles would also follow the more common model used in respect of English clubs - current exceptions being Reading (1) / (2), Charlton (1) / (2), West Ham (1) / (2, / 3), Southampton (1) (2) and Arsenal (1) / (2) which will also have this merge suggestion applied. It would probably make it easier for interested editors to keep the current information updated if they are monitoring the same article rather than there being two articles containing overlapping information (WP:OVERLAP) being maintained separately.
PS I nominated one article to 'remain' and one to 'go' purely on the basis of which had existed longer. My intention was not to offend any editors by suggesting the article they created/maintain should be deleted due to being inferior to any other, just that I don't think any more than one article on this topic is necessary.Crowsus (talk) 12:57, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I have also created a discussion on WP:FOOTY regarding these mergers here if anyone wants to make general points, counter-arguments etc. Thanks.Crowsus (talk) 13:48, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with merging the smaller article, just delete it, Govvy (talk) 14:46, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: On you go then, I agree there's not much at all that isn't in the other article although I've not looked at it in detail. But if you just delete, the blame will be on you if anyone protests. That's why I went for the softer Merge suggestion (the result is the same of course!) Crowsus (talk) 21:25, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I went and prodded the article, but the prod was removed so I upgraded to AfD, it doesn't need to be merged, it's just copied information with little value as an article, this article already does the job the other one shouldn't be there. Govvy (talk) 22:16, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: yeah I don't disagree, I just put the merge thing on all the duplicate articles as some of them do have different info on them which would need a merge, but the Spurs one doesn't. You see how interested someone got as soon as you used the phrase Delete! ;-) Crowsus (talk) 22:22, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: heh, like I said, was in 2006 when this article was created, I think I was the one that started this page, but not too sure, the creator of the page just copied information, he should be helping this article and not start another one. Govvy (talk) 22:44, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 

message: I was thinking about removing the whole lot of it, anyone out there have any thoughts on it? Govvy (talk) 19:14, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seasons 

message: The article doesn’t state when the Academy was formed but does say the Academy team started in 1998.  Is it really appropriate to include the likes of Glenn Hoddle and Sol Campbell in the list of graduates?  They came from the youth team, as did Steve Perryman, Chris Hughton, Mark Bowen and many others, but these were all several years before the Academy came into existence.  Should we list just actual Academy graduates or include those like Hoddle who came through the youth team?  We should apply similar criteria throughout, and if we say “Academy only” then this means we should remove the FA Youth Cup wins from the Honours section.  Opinions? LenF54 (talk) 16:30, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No response.  I would much prefer that we had consensus, otherwise any unilateral edit I make is likely to be reverted.  If we say the article is strictly about the academy then we should remove the likes of Campbell, Hazard and Hoddle and the FA Youth Cup wins, but there is then an argument that we would need to create a separate article for the reserves and youth teams of the pre-academy days.  We could instead treat the article as relating to the academy and its predecessors, and amend the notables to a list of academy or youth team graduates who have appeared in 25 or more competitive fixtures for the club and have represented their country at full international level, thus removing some but adding in Bowen, Hughton, Ron Henry and others.  I’ll give it another couple of weeks. LenF54 (talk) 17:54, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Still no response so unilateral edits being carried out.  May take some time.  Comments welcome. LenF54 (talk) 17:27, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I've only just noticed your posts, the academy is the evolution of the youth system, the two can be combined. Govvy (talk) 20:59, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Academy or earlier 

message: I have copied the main body of text from my sandbox. I still have several lists there.
I have re-written the list Notable Tottenham Hotspur F.C. Academy graduates into Notable Tottenham Hotspur F.C. youth team players or Academy graduates and broken it down into three separate groups: full internationals, full internationals who have not played a competitive first team game for THFC, and uncapped players who have played more than 100 competitive games for THFC.
In the list Academy management and support staff I have removed Paul Brush and Pat Holland. My e-mail to Brush’s work address bounced and when I asked the Academy they said he no longer works there. Holland has told me he hasn’t worked at Tottenham for some time.
I have recreated the list of Reserve team managers, calling it Reserve team manager / Head of development history, and made several additions. I have added a list for Academy manager history.
The biggest problem is that there is no online source for much of it, and Wikipedia is not a source for Wikipedia. I’ll give it a few days before putting the lists live. If you have any comments please add them here or on my talk page but please do not make changes in my sandbox.
LenF54 (talk) 15:26, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The Academy Management list is very out of date. I am in contact with Pat Holland (an old school thing) and he says he hasn’t worked there for some time. My e-mail to Paul Brush (same school) at his work address bounced and when I checked with the Academy they said he no longer works there. Pat said he thought Paul was now working for Cambridge United. I checked and this is borne out by Paul’s linkedin entry. Using google and linkedin I can see Michael Donaldson has been at Reading since January 2019, Daryl McMahon (who has his own Wikipedia page) is at Dagenham and Redbridge, Aaron Harris and Dr Imtiaz Ahmad are now at QPR, Adam Paxton is with West Ham, David McGinness has left and now works in Australia, Charlie Moore is at Bournemouth, Luke Georgiou is with Watford, Andrew Ratnage is now a tennis coach, Josh Smith is at Arsenal, and Charlie Turnbull is with Ipswich. I have removed them but I don’t know who has replaced them and the job titles of the remaining staff are sometimes uncertain. LenF54 (talk) 14:32, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I have put my lists of notable players live, leaving me with the Reserve Team Managers, Academy Managers and Youth Team Managers still work-in-progress in my sandbox. LenF54 (talk) 15:19, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Manager lists put live - warts and all. I would love to know who was in charge of the teams that won the SECL 1978-79 and 80-81. LenF54 (talk) 16:44, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lists 

message: I have recently been discussing group 2 of the list of notables, players who never made a competitive first team appearance for Tottenham but did play in a full international for their country. The list does not, for example, include Dillon De Sliva (Sri Lanka) or Des Walker (England), and there must be many who left the academy or previous schoolboy set-up to complete their “education” elsewhere. I suggested the list could be limited to players who obtained a professional contract at Tottenham, but this would exclude Kerry Dixon and others. I feel we should try to reach a consensus on inclusion criteria and I welcome input. LenF54 (talk) 16:26, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: If we include only those who signed professional contracts with Tottenham, we would delete Bobby Almond, Kerry Dixon, Zaine Francis-Angol, Yaser Kasim, Ramil Sherif and William Troost-Ekong from the list, and I have not been able to determine for certain if Warren Hackett was a Tottenham pro. LenF54 (talk) 15:46, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: No input from others. I will leave the list as is. LenF54 (talk) 16:17, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable academy or youth team players