Talk:Coriolan Overture

message: The article states that the performances of Furtwängler and Reiner do not follow Beethoven's own metronome markings.  What are they?  They are not given in the scores available at the links here, which simply give the indication "allegro con brio."  Most of the performances you hear nowadays seem more like "allegro senza brio" (if, indeed, they can be described as "allego" at all).  Furtwängler and Reiner sound right to me.  To be sure, they are the ones I heard first, but still, present-day performances seem decidedly too slow.  Could there have been an error in the original edition (or manuscript) resulting in the unintentional halving of the speed?  Perhaps Furtwängler and Reiner may preserve a genuine tradition after all.  I for one would like to think so.
Kostaki mou 04:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Metronome Markings

message: The German and French version of this article claim that Beethoven wrote the overture for the play "Coriolan" written by Heinrich Joseph von Collin. The English and Spanish version mention Shakespeare instead of von Collin. Does anyone know the solution to that contradiction?
--84.63.21.184 16:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's absolutely for the play by Collin, which he wrote in 1804; Beethoven supplied the overture shortly after he finished the play.  It's covered in the Grove article I cited, and I fixed our article.  Thanks for pointing it out!  Antandrus  (talk) 05:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Play by Shakespeare or von Collin?

message: Listing most highly regarded recordings and other notable recordings is very subjective and highly un-encyclopedic (who says that? Any references?). --Karljoos (talk) 20:46, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recordings 

message: The article should be edited to incorporate a new section on "Structural analysis" etc, which should include the following ideas and cites.
== Kinderman ==
Beethoven By William Kinderman -- see http://books.google.com/books?id=Ih8sed78C38C&pg=PA144&dq=%22coriolan+overture%22+structure#v=onepage&q=%22coriolan%20overture%22%20structure&f=false -- which includes some valuable analysis quotes
== Finney ==
Hearing Music- A Guide to Music Appreciation By Theodore M. Finney -- see http://books.google.com/books?id=6p2WFqrMp1EC&pg=PA35&dq=%22coriolan+overture%22+structure#v=twopage&q=coriolan&f=false
== Kramer ==
The Strange Case of Beethoven's "Coriolan": Romantic Aesthetics, Modern Subjectivity, and
the Cult of Shakespeare
Lawrence Kramer
The Musical Quarterly, Vol. 79, No. 2. (Summer, 1995), pp. 256-280.
Stable URL:
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0027-4631%28199522%2979%3A2%3C256%3ATSCOB%22%3E2.0.CO%3B2-S
 -- cited at http://www.sfcmhistory.com/Laurance/Symphonic_poem_GRAD/articles/MicznikLisztIdeale.pdf
== Preview of Program Music and the Leitmotif ==
The article should explain that the work is important because it previews Lizt's program music, and its two major 'themes' (short melodies) pre-echo Wagnarian leit-motivs.
== Structure of Score ==
The orchestral score is online at <http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/4/45/IMSLP01483-CoriolanusOv__Op62-FS.pdf> (public domain).  
The overture lasts (depending on the tempo of the conductor) between eight and nine minutes.  
There are 314 bars and it is written in C minor / E flat major.  Id.  
The structure uses the sonata form (see Michael Broyles, infra at 144).
The original score by Beethoven online at http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/flash/kurzfassungen/op062_00_01_kurz.html Oconnell usa (talk) 20:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add new info on "Structural analysis" etc. 

message: The orchestral score is online at <http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/4/45/IMSLP01483-CoriolanusOv__Op62-FS.pdf> (public domain).  
The overture lasts (depending on the tempo of the conductor) between eight and nine minutes.  
There are 314 bars and it is written in C minor / E flat major.  Id.  
The structure uses the sonata form (see Michael Broyles, infra at 144).
The original score by Beethoven online at http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/flash/kurzfassungen/op062_00_01_kurz.html Oconnell usa (talk) 20:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure of Score 

message: Michael Broyles believes that "no other composition of Beethoven is as historically important and historiographicially neglected as the Coriolan Overture."  Beethoven: the emergence and evolution of Beethoven's heroic style By Michael Broyles, at page 143 -- online at http://books.google.com/books?id=oRiPOkaMnAAC&pg=PA143&lpg=PA143&dq=%22michael+broyles%22+coriolan&source=bl&ots=Typ7BDnnM4&sig=bFQPpnqHleqB3D3ux8P8lptGkIc&hl=en&ei=BoW2SqqABom2sgP8x6ieDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=%22michael%20broyles%22%20coriolan&f=false -- Broyles analysis should be sunnarized in the Wiki article.  Oconnell usa (talk) 19:52, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broyles 

message: BEGINQUOTE from http://www.raptusassociation.org/ouvop62_e.html:
With respect to the beginning and origin of this composition, Barry Cooper reports:  
"Again little is known about the origins of the work--no sketches survive and the reason why it was composed is uncertain.  The play dates from 1802, but it was revived in Vienna for a single performance on 24 April 1807.  Since Beethoven would have been unlikely to write a dramatic overture without the incentive of a performance in the theatre, the overture was probably composed for this occasion (despite Thayer's assertion to the contrary. . . . " (Cooper: 164). 
ENDQUOTE  Oconnell usa (talk) 20:00, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reason for Composition 

message: see http://www.raptusassociation.org/ouvop62_e.html  Oconnell usa (talk) 20:24, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Raptus Association Essay with Cites 

message: BEGINQUOTE FROM http://www.music-with-ease.com/beethoven-coriolanus.html 
The overture is written in a single movement and without an introduction. It opens with a unison in the strings, followed by a sharply sounded chord in full orchestra. After a double repetition and two more chords, the principal theme is announced, indicative of the heroic character of Coriolanus and the spirit of unrest which has possessed him. It is given out by the violins and violas and after a somewhat brief development is followed by a beautiful second theme which typifies the gentler and tenderer attributes. Later on, a third theme enters, a fugue in the violins worked up with an arpeggio in the violas and cellos, the development of which closes the first section of the movement. The second consists of a repetition of the same materials with some variations. The development leads to an intensively passionate and dramatic Coda, descriptive of the death of Coriolanus. There have been a few, if any, more finals than tragic ending of this overture, with its fragmentary allusion to the opening theme, its gradual ebbing away, and, at the last, those three soft notes which clearly are the last pulsations of the dying hero.
ENDQUOTE
This is an excellent overview of the structure which can be incorporated and merged with other sources to create a bar-by-bar explanation for Wiki.  Oconnell usa (talk) 20:29, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Music with Ease 

message: "The overture in sonata form with two Subjects, Free Fantasia and Recapitulation ; concert overtures follow more or less strictly this form (Beethoven's "Coriolan," . . . etc)."  http://www.archive.org/stream/popularhandbooko00pochiala/popularhandbooko00pochiala_djvu.txt 
-- THE LIBRARY OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA LOS ANGELES, MUSIC LIBRARY, A UGENER'S EDITION No. 10116., POPULAR HANDBOOK OF MUSICAL INFORMATION, BY A. POCHHAMMER. TRANSLATED BY H. HEALE. LONDON : AUGENER LIMITED.
Oconnell usa (talk) 20:54, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:   Overture in Sonata Form 

message: Outline of Overture:
[the following must be rewritten for clarity -- using the score at <http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/4/45/IMSLP01483-CoriolanusOv__Op62-FS.pdf> for bar references
The Overture is in the Sonata form with a 4/4 meter and tempo of Allegro con brio. 
=== INTRODUCTION ===
Bars 1-4 at 0:00:  The Overture opens double forte and "with a unison in the strings" followed by "a sharply sounded chord in full orchestra".
Bars 5-8 at 0:08:  Second statement of the opening, ending with an emphatic chord.
Bars 9-12 at 0:15:  Third statement of the opening, ending with an emphatic chord.
Bar 13 at 0:21.  Second emphatic chord.
Bar 14 at 0:23:  Third emphatic chord.
=== EXPOSITION ===
==== First Theme ====
Bars 19-21 at 0:25:  First statement of the principal theme, which is "indicative of the heroic character of Coriolanus and the spirit of unrest which has possessed him.  It is given out by the violins and violas".  Note that the rest at Bar 21 is part of the principal theme.
Bars 22-28 at 0:35:  Second statement of the principal theme -- "a somewhat brief development" of the principal theme
Bars 29-49 at 0:46:  Third statement and brief development of the principal theme.
==== Second Theme ====
Bars 50-64 at 1:20:  First statement of the second theme, "a beautiful second theme which typifies the gentler and tenderer attributes."
Bars 56-59 at 1:29:  Second statement of the second theme.
Bars 60-63 at 1:35:  Third statement of the second theme.
Bars 64-75 at 1:42:  Development of the second theme.
==== Third Theme ====
Bars 78-83 at 2:02:  Statement of the third theme:  "a third theme enters, a fugue in the violins worked up with an arpeggio in the violas and cellos", with a cresendo building with timpani entering at Bar 84 at 2:11
Bar 84 at 2:11:  Development of the third theme, with timpani 
Bars 92-95 at 2:23:  The third theme culminates in a series of four chords marked Sforzando
Bars 102- at 2:40:  "the development of [the third theme] closes the first section of the movement.
Bars ...:  "The second [movement] consists of a repetition of the same materials with some variations."
Bars 152-155 at 3:55:  First statement of the loud, sustained F on the violins, followed by an orchestral chord. 
Bars 156-159 at 4:01:  Second statement of the sustained F, followed by an orchestral chord and then developed.
Bars 160-163 at 4:13:  Third statement and development
=== DEVELOPMENT (FREE FANTASIA) ===
Bars 176- at 4:46-5:12:  Restatement and development of the second theme
bar 241 at 6:12 -- transition
bar 244 at 6:18 -- original theme first time
bar 248 at 6:24 -- second time
bar 252 at 6:30 third time at 
bar 254  at 6:34-- begin transition
=== RECAPITULATION ===
bar 254 at 6:49 -- timpani first sounds during transition (timpanis are easy to follow)
bar 276 at 7:09 -- sustained note first time, ending with one emphatic quarter note and then 7-beat rest
bar 280 at 7:14 -- sustained note second time, ending with one emphatic quarter note and then a 7-beat rest
bar 284 at 7:22 -- sustained note third time, but this one ending with two emphatic quarter notes and then a 6 beat rest
bar 288 at 7:28 -- second time:  two emphatic quarter notes and a 2-beat rest
bar 289 at 7:30 -- third time:  two emphatic quarter notes and a 2-beat rest
bar 290 at 7:32 -- transition dimuendo to coda
=== CODA ===
bar 296 at7:43  -- coda -- piano
bars 312-314 at -- ends with 3 very quiet quarter notes on the strings, played Pizzicato (plucked)
Bars ...:  "an intensively passionate and dramatic Coda, descriptive of the death of Coriolanus.  There have been a few, if any, more finals than tragic ending of this overture, with its fragmentary allusion to the opening theme"
Bars ...:  the opening themes "gradual ebbing away"
Bars ...:  "at the last, those three soft notes which clearly are the last pulsations of the dying hero."
Oconnell usa (talk) 21:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:   Outline 

message: bar 296 at7:43  -- coda -- piano
bars 312-314 at -- ends with 3 very quiet quarter notes on the strings, played Pizzicato (plucked)
Bars ...:  "an intensively passionate and dramatic Coda, descriptive of the death of Coriolanus.  There have been a few, if any, more finals than tragic ending of this overture, with its fragmentary allusion to the opening theme"
Bars ...:  the opening themes "gradual ebbing away"
Bars ...:  "at the last, those three soft notes which clearly are the last pulsations of the dying hero."
Oconnell usa (talk) 21:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  CODA 

message: Hello, I have uploaded a high quality performance of this overture; one of those recently commissioned by Musopen to the Czech National Symphony Orchestra. Unlike the file currently being used this one has a higher bitrate and was taken from a professional studio recording so you won't here any whispers in it, despite not having been featured yet as the Fulda Symphonic Orchestra version was. You can find it  in the Commons. What's your opinion? Don't you mind if I (or someone else) make(s) the replacement? --Isacdaavid (talk) 04:24, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better audio recording 

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thread_title:  External links modified