Talk:Ordinance (Latter Day Saints)

message: It would be good if this article would cover the relationship between the Mormon conception of "ordinance", and the concept of "sacrament" in some other Christian denominations. Are ordinances and sacraments two different words for the same thing, or does the difference in terminology reflect an underlying conceptual difference? -- samuel katinsky — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.111.13.34 (talk • contribs) 09:23, 16 March 2005‎
:Covered in Sacrament#The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) & Sacrament (LDS Church). -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 20:46, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I think it's a little troubling that these pages about LDS temples don't include references to criticisms of the closed nature of temples and the concerns about the secrecy of what exactly is happening inside. Right now, the articles read as a little bit biased in favor of the church.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.253.18.168 (talk) 02:33, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: What happens in temples is not secret. It's sacred. And the temples are not "closed". There's a HUGE difference. Anyone who qualifies as worthy to enter the temples can find out what goes on in them. The articles are not biased in favor of the Church. Groups of editors work together to ensure that a neutral point of view is achieved. If you have any specific concerns, please state them. If not, then it's pointless to suggest the degree of criticism you are recommending, as this would violate the above WP policies. Thanks. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 13:39, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: So true. Wikipedia can be both accurate and fair. Correct information is instructive. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 00:22, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Secrecy Concerns

message: I noticed in the article some things listed as ordinances which may not make the cut. In particular, calling; sustaining; and fellowship. These things are routine and done as part of governance in the church, but I don't understand that they merit the word "ordinance." Handbook 2, 20.1, says an "ordinance is a sacred act, such as baptism, that is performed by the authority of the priesthood." I don't understand that people are called or sustained with an invocation of priesthood authority; while the people who initiate these acts always hold the priesthood, I don't find it a function or expression of the priesthood. In the manual Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood (http://www.lds.org/manual/duties-and-blessings-of-the-priesthood-basic-manual-for-priesthood-holders-part-b/priesthood-and-church-government/lesson-4-the-purpose-of-priesthood-ordinances), only 6 non-saving ordinances are mentioned: 1. Naming and blessing of children, 2. Administering to the sick, 3. Patriarchal blessings, 4. Father’s blessings, 5. Blessings of guidance and comfort, 6. Dedication of graves. I don't find place for the three I previously mentioned. Slb1900 (talk) 05:48, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The Latter Day Saint movement is wider then the LDS Church, and there are differing definitions of ordnance between the various constituent denominations. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 15:16, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good observation (and I actually didn't notice this is a Latter Day Saint article until you mentioned it, thank you), but the sections I refer to are focused specifically on the LDS Church. I still feel there's some validity to the question. Slb1900 (talk) 17:23, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Within the LDS Church, the Handbook and other current manuals are not exhaustive, and generally only enumerate non-saving ordinances that have special forms or wording that must be observed. Some ordinances (such as temple ones) are not described in detail in those sources due to their sacredness & non-public nature; others are considered so simple (such as sustainings) that information about them is generally conveyed outside of the Mormon corridor when needed thru less formal means (such as via Stake, Area, and worldwide leadership training meetings), and within areas of traditional Mormon strength are communicated often thru emulation of multi-generational member behavior (Pres. Packer explained this in a talk that I can look up if you're interested). Also keep in mind that what a member of the LDS Church might see as "routine and done as part of governance in the church" can instead be seen as ritualistic (or, in other words, as an ordinance in LDS parlance) from the standpoint of Mormon studies &/or by those outside of the faith. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 17:39, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Since I believe the question could come up later, it might be good to have Pres. Packer's talk linked here, if you could. Slb1900 (talk) 15:45, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I'll look for it and post it. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 16:28, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like I remembered this a bit wrong, as the address was not in conference. See:  -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 18:01, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Ordinances listed in article

message: It would appear that this page's primary purpose is to be a summary of specific information relating to any or all the orginaizations in the Latter Day Saint movement.  In that regard, it should list nothing that isn't specifically dealt with on another, more detailed page.  As I read the list I found that I could not regularly distinguish between how one organization used the "ordinance" vs. another --- if at all.  While obviously fairly LDS-specific, the page has been written to be so devoid of sect-specific interpretation that the page is disinformative.  In other words, if a teen from the LDS religion visited this page, they would come away with a *very* incorrect belief about what are, and are not, ordinances in their own faith and little insight into what are or are not in the other organizations.  It's difficult for me to not recommend the page be discontinued as the the most fundamental question, "what is an ordinance?" has not been sufficiently addressed (In the LDS Church, there's no such thing as a "non-saving ordinance.").  At best this page should be titled, "Rituals" as the LDS Church (at least) sees a substantial difference between blessings (e.g., patriarchical b. or b. of healing), rituals (the Hosanna Shout), and ordiances.  If we don't know what each organization considers an "ordinance," how can we then describe them?  If saving this page (which should only be a summary of more detailed information elsewhere) is important to the lds movement, then I would begin by creating separate lists of "ordinances" by organization rather than one large misleading list that trys to be everything to everyone.  (And believe me, "Fellowship" is not an ordinance in the LDS Church.  It doesn't even have anything to do with the Law of Common Consent (D&C 26:2) other than to conveniently borrow the action of raising one's right hand to acknowledge the fact that someone has moved into the congregation.)JBH (talk) 22:40, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ambiguity is Difficult to Process