Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musicians/Archive 2

message: Anyone who was following Template talk:Infobox musical artist will have seen the debacle regarding the meaning of the "current members" field. There's been some conflict regarding what goes there for a band that's no longer active, among other things.
Just today this has come up again at Genesis (band). A revert war has began; this underscores the need for the project to have a guideline of some kind regarding this issue. (Infobox musical artist has changed the field displayed to say "Members" only as a reaction, but a firm word on the subject would go a long way.) –Unint 18:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A job for the project

message: I've been messing around with the  template so that it now properly does the show/hide, and I've added the article rating system to it, so articles are now placed in :Category:WikiProject Musicians articles by importance & :Category:WikiProject Musicians articles by quality. Thoughts? Ajaxfan 17:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good. I was messing around with a similar one in my sandbox. Never got around to finishing it though. One thing that always bothered me was the name of the template. I feel it should be moved to  or similar. The major problem with that though would be fixing all the articles with  on them. – Heav e n's Wrath   Talk  22:41, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the difference between  and ? When previewing a talk page with  added to a previously existing , there was no visible difference between the two. BNutzer 21:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  now redirects to . We have joined forces with WikiProject Biography. An explanation of how to use  is on the template's page, and the fields applicable to this project are available on the main page. – Heav e n's Wrath   Talk  21:57, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol, wish I'd been a fly on the wall. That must have really got you puzzled :) --kingboyk 22:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Shouldn't Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians#Adding articles better say: "Add " or even "" (to prevent superfluous redirects)? BNutzer 23:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I updated that section. Thank you, (you are correct of course) I had forgotten to update the entire page. – Heav e n's Wrath   Talk  03:01, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Probably a bug. Can you report it on the template talk? I'#ll try to fix it but it might not be today as I have a really bad cold. --kingboyk 07:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Get well soon! BNutzer 15:51, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yikes, I answered you guys on that page but didn't realze a thread was here, so in case you guys didn't see that, I've fixed that bug... --plange 14:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikiproject template

message: I added |attention=yes on Talk:Toni Price so that it says . Apparently, that added the page to :Category:Biography articles needing attention. I expected it to be automatically added to :Category:Musicians work group articles needing attention. Did I miss something, or could it be the template isn't fully working? BNutzer 22:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably a bug. Can you report it on the template talk? I'#ll try to fix it but it might not be today as I have a really bad cold. --kingboyk 07:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Get well soon! BNutzer 15:51, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yikes, I answered you guys on that page but didn't realze a thread was here, so in case you guys didn't see that, I've fixed that bug... --plange 14:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: |attention=yes

message: Hi, I've created a proposal for categorizing "taper-friendly bands", aka "bands that allow taping" within Wikipedia, and I wanted to invite people interested in this article to offer comments and feedback, since this falls, at least somewhat within the purview of the Musicians project. The proposal is at User:Xtifr/BTAT, and I'd be very interested to hear what people have to say about my suggestions. Let me know whatcha think. Thanks, Xtifr 11:12, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal on categorizing "Taper-friendly bands"

message: Another thing I noticed is these MUSART templates   . I don't really see the point - they seem to be more complicated than typing in the project name/link by hand! Can anyone convince me why they shouldn't be nominated for deletion? :)
Whether they're useful or not they should be subst'd not transcluded. I've done a load myself, but here's an AWB job for you while we're discussing the main project template - go through this list with AWB and subst all MUSART instances :) --kingboyk 15:04, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm, yeah these templates seem totally useless to me. I'll start substing them later today, after which they an be deleted as far as I' m concered. jaco♫plane 15:08, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okie dokie mate, let me know when they're no longer needed and I'll use my magic button (assuming you're not an admin, I haven't checked! if you are, well, you know what to do ;)) --kingboyk 15:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: OK, you are an admin. My apologies. --kingboyk 17:31, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh, anyway, I substed all the templates :) jaco♫plane 18:08, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: MUSART templates

message: (Now we use WPBio, it's actually priority=)
I'm migrating the musician templates over to WPBio, and I've found some absolutely ridiculous importance ratings. Examples:
* Celine Dion - I can't stand the woman, but low importance?! At least High.
* Bee Gees - One of the top selling bands and songwriting teams in the world, ever. Top importance, no question. Was rated Low!
So we're all singing off the same sheet:
Low should be bands that didn't make it, but have just about enough notability to get a Wikipedia article. We can also put reality TV show contestants who didn't win in this category. The legendary bands and artists get Top. Everyone else should be Mid or High.
If there's any controversy over ratings for "Top" priority we could always introduce an approval process for Top, but let's not add that extra level of bureaucracy unless it's needed :) --kingboyk 13:12, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Kylie Minogue is apparently low too. Sigh. --kingboyk 14:07, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Musician "importance"

message: Howdy! We just had someone request a peer review for a musical group, which isn't really our purview, but instead of turning them away, I thought I'd see if you guys could help assess? --plange 15:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is "our" purview because this is a child project of WPBio now :) Thanks for the headsup though and please do post future headsup here too, but there's no need for a disclaimer :) I've seen that article on my travels lately - I think it's a current GA nominee? Not sure it should be undergoing GA and PR at the same time but never mind... --kingboyk 16:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Peer review

message: Who is entitled to list their name among the project members? I am a new iPod owner (purchased Aug 2006). As a result, I have been correcting and suggesting corrections in several related pages. I am modestly involved.TonyTheTiger 15:11, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you ever edit musician articles, sign on up. All Wikipedians in good standing are welcome. --kingboyk 15:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Members

message: At the newly created Template:WPMusicians discography, I stumbled upon the terms top or high-priority musician articles. I would like to ask for ratings on the original seven musicians I listed in the discography need category: Louis Armstrong, Celia Cruz, Gap Band, Dizzy Gillespie, Aaron Neville, Teddy Pendergrass, & Tito Puente TonyTheTiger 15:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discography template

message: * Hiya, I've been working on Sasha (DJ) for quite some time now but haven't managed to get it up to FA status yet. It pretty much just needs a couple goings-over from someone with copy-editing experience. Basically, it just needs someone to go through and pick out any wording redundancies or any other sort of awkward sentences. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Wickethewok 18:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Some copy-editing help with an FAC?

message: Hi. I've just put this article up for its 2nd review, the last one got a fairly poor response so hopefully this one will get some more eyes on it and since you guys are now supporting the article maybe you'd be so good as to take a look. regards --KaptKos 09:39, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I will head over there now. – Heav e n's Wrath   Talk  16:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:Peer review/Sparks (band)/archive2]]

message: This discussion started at the infobox talk page, but I'm redirecting this part of it here, because I think it has broader implications. Note that the trick in question (putting a logo instead of a name into the infobox) is apparently done on several articles, most notably Coldplay, but more blatantly, with articles like Arctic Monkeys. The more I think about it, the more I think it's a Bad Idea(TM), for the following reasons:
# Will encourage people to upload more fair-use images of limited notability.
# Makes the articles less accessible to people using text browsers or screen readers.
# Makes the article look confusingly like an official band site, rather than an encyclopedia (some legal danger here).
# Makes the article look more like a fan site, rather than an encyclopedia, encouraging the addition of more fancruft (a constant and on-going problem with arts and entertainment articles).
# The vast majority of bands (let alone musical artists) don't have a single, recognized logo. This will encourage people to find inappropriate near-logos that don't belong in the article to add to an infobox for the "coolness" factor.
# Articles should stand on their own, even if all fair-use images are arbitrarily removed, as they would have to be for most derivative works. Obviously there are exceptions to this rule, i.e. articles about images, but these are articles about bands. Putting the logo in the infobox instead of the name means more work when stripping fair-use images.
# Looking outside the world of arts-and-entertainment articles, I note that corporate logos, while often added to articles about corporations, are never (that I can see) included in an infobox. They are usually displayed below it.
# Could spread to album articles, which would be really excessive (we might want to alert the Albums project to be on the lookout for this).
I might be able to think of more reasons, but that should do for a start. If a concensus develops that we should allow or even support this, I'll go along, but I really think it's a bad precedent. Xtifr tälk 21:00, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you. Although I like the look of some of the names. I think that your points are well-based. If a band happens to have such a standard symbol for their name, I am open to including it as an image in the article. But some of the images do not really seem like they are the official logo of a band. Especially since some logos change from album to album. – Heav e n's Wrath   Talk  00:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Logos in infoboxes

message: Hello. The WikiProject Council is currently in the process of developing a master directory of the existing WikiProjects to replace and update the existing Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. These WikiProjects are of vital importance in helping wikipedia achieve its goal of becoming truly encyclopedic. Please review the following pages:
* User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory,
* User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory 2,
* User:Badbilltucker/Philosophy and religion Directory,
* User:Badbilltucker/Sports Directory,
* User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory,
* User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory/United States, (note: This page will be retitled to more accurately reflect its contents)
* User:Badbilltucker/History and society directory, and
* User:Badbilltucker/Science directory
and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory.
The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters.
It is my hope to have the existing directory replaced by the updated and corrected version of the directory above by November 1. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 21:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry if you tried to update it before, and the corrections were gone. I have now put the new draft in the old directory pages, so the links should work better. My apologies for any confusion this may have caused you. B2T2 00:18, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Project Directory

message: Soon after I added Celia Cruz to the :Category:Musicians work group articles needing discographies list, someone added a sketch. I posted my complaints about this sketch here Talk:Celia Cruz#Discography need. A sketch based on recency does not suffice in my eyes. Should I relist her? TonyTheTiger 20:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Celia Cruz

message: I am officially confused on how to add a suggestion to the guidelines section. I would like to post a guideline for a sufficient selected discography (with my Celia Cruz commentary in mind). I believe that wikipedia as the world's encyclopedia and thus an important information source should aspire to have selected discographies that are informative enough that the casual visitor can make better decisions for record choice (buying, borrowing from the library, including in iTunes playlist, etc.). With this in mind I believe a selected discography should attempt to be informative in listing Grammy Winning albums, Platinum Albums, Most important Compilations, and be instructive on most important singles. TonyTheTiger 21:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not a buyers guide, but notable albums/singles/etc. should probably be listed in a discography, if the artice is to reach FA status, But we're all relying on volunteer labor here. And the Celia Cruz article does have the beginnings of a discography now. At most, I would probably add a request for expansion template to the section (e.g. ), rather than re-listing it as "needs discography". Especially since there are probably thousands of articles that completely lack discographies and haven't been tagged at all. I dunno. As for the basic idea of developing some guidelines for discographies—that's probably a good idea. Xtifr tälk 21:52, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's some overlap here between WikiProject Musicians and WikiProject Albums, and we should probably try to coordinate with them. Discography standardization and discography templates are something that has been discussed and rejected in the past, I believe. There's just too many possible approaches, and too many different things that are appropriate for some artists but not others. Looking at the Album Project page, though, I note that they also monitor :Category:Musicians work group articles needing discographies and mention that it should include articles with "deficient" discographies, so re-listing Celia Cruz is probably ok. Bottom line, I don't want to start any turf-wars, as that seems to be part of the reason the original version of this project collapsed. But I think some basic guidelines (or at least suggestions) for discographies is a good idea. Xtifr tälk 22:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not see the reason for a "Selected dicography" section, other than the fact if an artist has a seperate discography page. I think that based on the  template, it can be relisted as it does not meet the guidelines (although there are not really any officially adopted ones yet). We can change the wording if it would make it clearer. Also, the discography section should be a level 2 header, not a subheader. – Heav e n's Wrath   Talk  23:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal

message: I've overhauled Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lists of works) based on a 2nd round of feedback. Possibly it's complete and ready? Feedback (at it's talkpage) or improvements welcome :) --Quiddity 02:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lists of works)

message: When editing Annie Whitehead, I have found that some wikipedians apparently regard many musician articles "low standard". This might be of interest here and in the "parent" biography project ... see Talk:Annie Whitehead#Missing biographical data?. Cheers, BNutzer 16:02, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is hardly limited to musician articles. There's lots of stubs for actors, atheletes, writers, politicians, etc. I left a comment at the Annie Whitehead talk page. Basically, the article is already marked as a stub, which makes the other tags somewhat redundant. But perfectly valid. *shrug* Xtifr tälk 00:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was going to say the same thing -- it's a start/stub article which means it's missing stuff, so a tag like that seems redundant to me too. I could see its usage better on articles assessed at B or above... --plange 00:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My concern was rather whether an article about a musician should (or even needs to) contain much biographical data aside from the actual musicianship (is that an english word? :) since the  user asks for such info ... BNutzer 01:05, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Question is better suited for the Bio wikiproject, but in my opinion, yes. If it's ever going to have any hope of reaching Featured Article status, it's going to need to be much more detailed and, well, encyclopedic. Of course, that doesn't mean that having stubs is wrong (although m:Deletionists might disagree). It simply means that stubs are articles which still need a lot of work. Xtifr tälk 01:27, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, and echo the sentiment that there's nothing wrong with stubs or starts, esp. if that's all the info that can be gleaned using verifiable sources, etc. But if you do want to "climb it up the assessment ladder" then you would need that kind of info. It helps establish context for the person-- are they a coal miner's daughter and fought through class barriers, etc? Are they from a musical family? People don't form fully as a musician in isolation and had to have had influences from their surrounding environment (physical, familial and cultural), so it's good to give that context. --plange 15:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Musician articles and {{tl|cleanup-bio}}

message: Cheers, BNutzer 12:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: FYI: [[Template talk:WPBiography#musicians override arts and entertainment?]]

message: I've seen a few other WikiProjects with Project Boxes for their members userpage and I thought it might be nice to have one for ours. I believe it could increase membership and at the very least provide some exposure for the articles listed on it. An example of what I was thinking can be found here at my sandbox. Thoughts?
--Thereen 06:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Project Box

message: I have noticed that many artists popular with Spanish speaking music fans (Celia Cruz, Marc Anthony, Tito Puente, etc.) have discography and bio deficiencies. Have you ever made a broad task of translating info from Spanish wikipedia? TonyTheTiger 15:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally, I have not done much translating, although I probably know enough Spanish to do that. If you read the spanish versions, besides Cruz's article, there really is not that much more information. If translation was requested for an article that had a signifigant amount of information in the spanish article, I would be more than happy to do it. – Heav e n's Wrath   Talk  16:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was mainly talking about augmenting the discography. I think much can be added from the Spanish discography. TonyTheTiger 19:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Translations

message: Should List of recordings preserved in the United States National Recording Registry have a Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians tag? TonyTheTiger 15:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not think so. That would probably be better suited for WikiProject Music. Although every article does not need to have a tag. – Heav e n's Wrath   Talk  16:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Does WikiProject Music have a tag? TonyTheTiger 19:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List of recordings preserved in the United States National Recording Registry

message: I just wanted to announce that there are now userboxes for this project. They are on the main page under the userboxes section. Here's a link. Thanks to Thereen for the contribution. – Heav e n's Wrath   Talk  23:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Userboxes

message: They've recently voted to delete Category:Mysterious musicians, a category for musicians who have concealed their identities at some point. Does anyone think this category would have been salvageable under a different name (and if that had been brought up earlier as an option), or was it trivial overcategorization? –Unint 04:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I saw that discussion go by, but I wasn't really sure what I thought, so I stayed out of the debate. I suspect that a more clearly named category might be better, but I (still) don't have strong feelings one way or the other (though I like several of the musicians that were in the category). I think it is a pretty strong defining characteristic of several musicians (e.g. Buckethead or The Residents). But I'm not sure how many others would agree. It's also still a pretty rare and unusual thing for a musician to do, which might count against it. I dunno. Xtifr tälk 04:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have liked to see the cat remain; it's an important feature of Buckethead, TISM and The Residents, for example. I really can't think of a better name though. ~Switch t 10:57, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A recent CfD

message: Would someone please start at least a stub for Tim Eriksen, so the rest of us can build on it? I tried, but the current structure is just too daunting for us outsiders -- it is obvious that most submissions are declined. I don't see the point in getting into arguments about who is "notable" enough to "qualify". Are 23,000 google matches enough? 69.87.204.146 13:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tim Eriksen

message: Dear fellow contributors
User:Gmaxwell, a player at Wikipedia talk:Fair use, conducted a rampage two days ago through Johann Sebastian Bach that has led to the destruction of all of the fair-use audio excerpts. These excerpts were prepared in accordance with the WP policy on the fair use of commercial recordings (< 30 secs, educational value, no impingement on commercial market, etc) and include two whole-track excerpts for which written permission was given by the copyright owner to include in the article.
The action, by Maxwell and someone else who, strangely, doesn't appear in the edit history pages of the files in question, has been sudden, unilateral, and without so much as a mention on the talk page of the article. This has started a controversy at Wikipedia:Fair use#taking things way too far.
Our ability to illustrate music-related articles with the short, justified, fair use of excerpts from commercial recordings is now seriously threatened. I believe that these people are acting on their own particular interpreation of WP's fair-use policy. I urge you to voice your opinion in this debate.
Tony 02:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For those interested, please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers and Wikipedia talk:Fair use. I believe this characterization is unhelpful and splitting the discussion into several different places will be unproductive. Kat Walsh (spill your mind?) 03:15, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia:Oversight? Kim Bruning 20:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Deletion review would be the first stop if there were actually any reasonable arguments for why these should not be deleted as replaceable fair use—but I'm not hearing any such arguments. The two for which written permission was given have the strongest shot, but the permission would have had to have been for Creative Commons use (or equivalent), not just Wikipedia use. I agree that further discussion here would be unproductive, but I will say that I think the only people "taking things way too far" are those who want to include replaceable, non-free images and sounds in Wikipedia. Xtifr tälk 22:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sudden deletion of fair-use audio excerpts from Bach article. Major implications for music on WP.

message: Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 17:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia Day Awards

message: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography#"Assessment Week" might be interesting for project participants. Cheers and best wishes for the new year, BNutzer 16:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As of right now, there has been little response to the proposal of an "Assessment Week." If there is no further response soon, the proposal will probably be organized for just this Wikiproject. Thereen came up with the idea, and we thought it might be a good benefit to the entire Biography WikiProject. But it could only be truly successful with a lot of help. – Heav e n's Wrath   Talk  03:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Assessment Week"...?

message: * Hey, I've nominated Matisyahu for a Peer Review before putting it up for good article status. It's gone through some fairly significant improvement lately, so we'd really appreciate your input! Thanks. -- Chabuk [ T • C ] 06:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Matisyahu Peer Review

message: After the banner had been removed from Talk:AC/DC, Talk:U2 and Talk:King Crimson, I have restored the tags, and left a comment on the user's talk page. BNutzer 07:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See also Talk:Abnuceals Emuukha Electric Symphony Orchestra. BNutzer 07:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason I removed the WPBiography tag is because this article contains no biographical information and functions as a list. The WPBiography tag should be added to the individual pages of the performers of the orchestra. --Ozgod 12:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: User removing project banner from prominent band pages

message: See Talk:KISS (band). Please add your thoughts, whatever they maybe. 205.157.110.11 03:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Music related page move for KISS

message: Hi. I'm relatively new to Wikipedia and still feeling my way around. Have been editing the Ellis Paul page and wish I had found this group/project sooner. Have requested Peer Review for the article and am looking forward to the first rating! Your help with that would be very appreciated. Have not added my name to the list of active participants here. Could "Folk" be added to the list of genres? That is the one area that I may be interested in participating further. Thanks in advance for your guidance and assistance. Kmzundel 12:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ellis Paul article

message: I will be nominating the article on the band Slayer for FA soon. I would appreciate it, if some of you could take a look and leave some comments on the peer-review if anything would stop it from obtaining FA status. Thanks. M3tal H3ad 09:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Slayer]]

message: Just wanted to post a heads-up that :Category:Australian rock drummers has been nominated for deletion. The category is currently empty, so that's not a big deal, but it is certainly within the scope of this project, and was created following this project's guidelines. The deletion discussion is at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 January 10#Category:Australian rock drummers, and the categorization guidelines are at Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians/Categorization. Mostly I want to make sure that the category, if it's deleted, is deleted without prejudice to recreate, since it is guideline-compliant. Xtifr tälk 12:41, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Aussie rock drummers cat nominated for deletion

message: If someone is looking for something to do, feel free to check out Radio Romeo. It has issues. -Freekee 05:28, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Needs help

message: The Temptations has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:18, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Temptations FAR

message: Tokio Hotel has been subject to repeated vandalism, maybe you'd like to put it on your watchlist ... Cheers, BNutzer 12:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Tokio Hotel]] to be watched

message: Can someone pop over to the talkpage to give a 3rd party view about a current discussion about the band's name (or rather lack of it). here --Fredrick day 21:34, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The good, the bad and the queen

message: Mariah Carey has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mariah Carey FAR

message: I've read the project page, but I'm confused as to where I should put a musician bio article that needs a lot of TLC (Gus Dudgeon). It has a lot of content, but it's totally unsourced, written in an awkward style, and contains a lot of minutiae or possibly inaccurate data. How can I add this article to WPM to get help from members? With one of the templates? Add it to the collaboration noms? Thanks for any info. Anchoress 01:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You might try WP:CU, but I think it would be worth your while to look through WP:PROJDIR/W for a project or two that could help you. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 09:44, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK sorry, I should have been more specific. I thought maybe there was a way through or in the WPM to do it. I've already tagged it etc, but I didn't know if there were specific templates or lists within WPM to alert WPM members. Sorry for being vague before. Anchoress 10:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also try Wikipedia:WikiProject Music (some of its descendant projects might also be helpful) and WP:PSP. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 10:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, thanks for the info. Anchoress 02:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Where to add an article that needs help

message: I nominated Ellis Paul for FA more than 2 days ago, but so far there has been no response. I understand that may be a good sign...that there are no obvious defects....but would appreciate if some of you could take a look. Kmzundel 01:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ellis Paul

message: I have noticed that the flag living=yes has been added to articles about musical groups which I think is not the proper use of the flag. What do others think about that? Greetings, BNutzer 21:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fairly new to the WPBiography project and have been trying to evaluate and contribute to some of the unassessed articles on musicians. I wasn't sure on whether to use the living flag or not for groups or bands, but I have been adding it for bands with living members. I would think that the same precautions would need to be taken about adding negative unsourced material about a band with living members as any other living person biography. Any clarifications about policy or practice in regards to this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. - cgilbert(talk|contribs) 01:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe this older discussion about the usage of the flag is helpful ... Cheers, BNutzer 22:58, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: living=yes flag in project banner of musical groups' articles?

message: For anyone interested: up for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2007 February 23 are List of bands with no lineup changes, List of bands with no consistent members, and List of bands with only one consistent member. –Unint 18:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion noms notification

message: If anyone is interested, there is a talk going on at the Biography WikiProject concerning all Bands which could affect our project. Link to said discussion. Thereen 06:43, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't worry about it too much. This Project can decide it's own scope, and that includes musical groups. It was agreed when you joined forces and I don't foresee any change. --kingboyk 14:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The drive is into it's final few days I believe. Get assessing folks! --kingboyk 00:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Interested?

message: A few good Wikipedians are needed to assess articles. An idea for a week of assessment was proposed a while ago by myself and Heaven's Wrath, unfortunately we haven't gotten that off the ground. However, WikiProject Biography now has an Assessment Drive going on this month. A lot of the articles currently being suggested for assessment are those relating to Musicians, so I encourage our members to help out :) Thereen 07:44, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The drive is into it's final few days I believe. Get assessing folks! --kingboyk 00:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Also

message: Moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography
How is this article considered only "Start" class for the Biography and Rock Music projects? Surely a former Featured Article (with very few changes since its promotion to FA, despite the fact that it was demoted) is good enough for at least B Class?  plattopustalk 15:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Dream Theater]]

message: Comment on support or opposition of Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of recordings preserved in the United States National Recording Registry. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 22:52, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: FLC notice

message: User:TigerK 69 has made this template to standardize the artist/band navboxes. Not sure there is consensus to do this, and I listed some things to discuss at Template talk:Navbox musical artist. Found an old discussion on navboxes at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music/Archive 4#proposal. –Pomte 05:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: {{tl|Navbox musical artist}}

message: * Question - how is the word "the" in articles about bands treated. For example, in The Beatles, "the" is lowercase (eg. "Sgt Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band" was released by the Beatles"). However, articles such as The KLF use "the" as uppercase, ("...released in 1988 and 1989 by The KLF..."). Is either particularly correct? Or is it on a case-by-case basis? Wickethewok 03:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty sure "the Beatles" is incorrect, and it should be "The Beatles" in all cases. But I'm not entirely sure. However, in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name), it says, "If the definite or indefinite article article would be capitalized in running text, then include it at the beginning of the page name. Otherwise, do not include it at the beginning of the page name." Since the article is The Beatles, then by reverse induction, I conclude that "The" should be capitalized in running text. That's not a 100% conclusion, but I think it's a strong one. Personally, I always try to upper-case "The" where it's part of a band's name—but I'm not perfect, and I occasionally slip up. Xtifr tälk 23:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We say "The KLF" because, I think, we (WP:KLF) consider the "The" to be part of the name. In the case of the/The Beatles, there's been a huge amount of debate about this. WikiProject The Beatles of course wants to have consistency so that the band is always referred to in the same way, but for where the debate currently stands you'll have to check out WT:TBP! --kingboyk 23:53, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

text: *Very much thanks guys! Wickethewok 01:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "The" in band names

message: The text of this wiki appears to be a direct copy of this website . I don't want to delete it as I don't know enough about the band and can't recreate it, but perhaps somebody else should?? --The.Q | Talk to me 13:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[The Golden Horde (band)]] directly copied from website?

message: Duran Duran has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Duran Duran FAR

message: I have made a proposal on the page Talk:Bob Dylan to remove Bob Dylan from Category:Converts to Christianity. Please go there to discuss. --Metzenberg 20:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Remove Bob Dylan from Category:Converts to Christianity

message: It sounds like there's a fair amount of interest in this issue. First question: Do we want to do a template, like Template:Infobox Album, where people fill in the blanks? Or give guideline code that people can copy and adjust as they like? I prefer guidelines, to keep it as flexible as possible, but maybe a hard template can be made flexible? -Freekee 03:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the deciding factor here is how much code we want (or trust) the individual editors to handle. The templates are copied so much that they might as well be infoboxes of a different kind, I think. A common template would reduce coding errors or "improvements", which reduces their proliferation, which in turn reduces the need to check and fix code at intervals. –Unint 04:45, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: With all respect for your work, I don't like this format. Compliations and lives - most artists that have these will have one or maybe two at best, and it adds a lot of space to the template that isn't all that needed. In addition, you should add a list for singles/songs, which many artist navboxes have. TheHYPO 14:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right. Notice that the discography parameter takes in any number of lines, including singles and whatnot. I've only formatted the structure of the table, not the specific types of content. –Pomte 01:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I like it. As long as a band has a couple of items in each category, it's fine. Besides, most of the bands who are big enough to warrant such a navbox will have enough lives and comps to fill it. Actually, the studio, live and comp subheadings are just text, so they can be deleted, and a subheading for singles (which is very important) can easily be added. I would like it to say "Selected Discography" on top, though, so editors won't feel required to fill in every album in existence. Thanks a lot!! -Freekee 03:11, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The "selected" part can be specified, I guess. But who has selected it, and how do we know it's not arbitrary? A lot of bands can have their entire discography listed in a relatively small box. –Pomte 01:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Band/artist navboxes

message: What's the feeling on the "living=yes/no" for groups? For specific people it's added, should it be set to yes for bands where members are still living, too, or just skipped? -Bbik 04:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been briefly debated before, but I don't believe that consensus was ever achieved. Aside from feeling that it's not worth edit-warring over, I have no strong preference myself (although I usually just skip it). Xtifr tälk 21:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also don't bother with it. Add it if there's an issue/controversy but otherwise leave it blank, is my personal take. --kingboyk 22:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Template question

message: I've got a question, in affiliation(s) in the infobox, should you only list the bands which the musician has been in as a member, or also made guest appearances in? I've noticed there's some confusion about this. Grinder0-0 18:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When the field was created, it was intended for groups which spin off of other groups, groups which a solo artist is a member of, solo artists another solo artist directly mentored, and acts who perform regularly with each other. For example, Missy Elliott and Timbaland should be included in each other's "associated acts", since they were a songwriting/production team, and Timbaland produced most of Missy's hit records. On the other hand, Missy made one song with Eminem, but they shouldn't be listed as "associated acts" of each other. Also, as a general personal guideline, I try to keep the list as short as humanly possible (four or less). --FuriousFreddy 01:22, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Affiliation(s)" in info boxes

message: ...is becoming an issue. It was created explicitly for official alternate titles an artist/group has performed under, but I've seen far too many of them stuffed with every made-up nickname an artist has ever bestowed herself with. Not even something otherwise notable, such as "The Godfather of Soul", should be listed there.
And no, a "nicknames" field is not a good idea (at all). Wikipedia is only three steps removed from becoming Tripod as it is right now. --FuriousFreddy 01:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed on all points. Perhaps we can add that to the docs for the box. It might also be a good idea to add a link to the template page from the infobox, as many info/navboxes are sporting these days. This would greatly increase the chance that people might actually read the docs, I suspect. Just a little, unobtrusive {v} in the corner might be sufficient. Anyway, probably best discussed in the infobox's talk page. Xtifr tälk 07:11, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I amended the doc the other day (I figured the italicized emphasis I'd put in it when I originally wrote them was good enough, but eh...) --FuriousFreddy 02:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: That "alias" field in the infobox....

message: I ran into an inter-WikiProject dispute involving the Infoboxes Template:Infobox musical artist and Template:Guitarist infobox. As a multi-instrumentalist, I see a potential need for better data integration involving Musical Artist equipment and, when necessary, audio samples. Can the Infobox requirements of WikiProject Musicians and WikiProject Guitarists be deconflicted in such a way as to permit a common Infobox template across multiple WikiProjects in the music field (excepting Theatre)? Please advise. - B.C.Schmerker 04:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Every time the Template:Infobox musical artist is changed to incorporate field from Template:Guitarist infobox, to try to enable all guitarists to be converted to the new musical artist infobox, WikiProject Guitarists still objects to the broader template being used on their articles, particularly because ot the color scheme, and so their project edits their template to include new information as a reason to not convert their articles to the new musical artist infobox. See Template talk:Guitarist infobox#Template merge. - cgilbert(talk|contribs) 15:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it's not quite that simple, and the discussion you linked to is rather stale: the "magenta" color I referred to there is long gone, and the editing of the guitarist infobox to try to "keep ahead" also stopped long ago. Really, at this point, both projects more-or-less accept both templates. Which makes the choice a simple editorial dispute, not an inter-project conflict. Xtifr tälk 20:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All notes read. Sounds time for me to start a new alpha Infobox for deconfliction purposes. I'll request feedback at a later date as to a background color scheme. - B.C.Schmerker 04:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I really don't see any reason to create yet another infobox. The differences between the two are already quite minimal, and can be resolved with a few simple tweaks. I could probably do it in less than an hour. Let's not spend too much energy on what is really a pretty minor matter to begin with. If you want to help with template code, you might look into some of the navbox efforts, where people are just beginning to consider creating standards and consistency. (See the thread earlier on this page and Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians/Footers.) Xtifr tälk 07:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a user who once created a new infobox that changed a single line of text from an existing one. I'm still not quite sure how to deal with that one. –Unint 14:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm, I would think that WP:TFD might be a good way to deal with something like that. Or possibly WP:USERFY, and explain how to experiment in userspace. Xtifr tälk 19:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This was, in fact, one of his user-space "alpha" templates, which, after changing one line, he then deemed sufficiently complete to implement in template-space. I'm not keen on sending it to TfD yet because I can't understand what he meant to accomplish by it, or how his stated intentions match what he actually produced. –Unint 20:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Inter-WikiProject conflict

message: There are currently over 4,000 articles using the long-defunct  template which need to be converted to  templates. For anyone who is finding themselves without much editting to do, might I suggest lending a hand in this conversion? Anyone looking over these articles (which could be in various states of disrepair) would definitely benifit Wikipedia or at the very least, this Project. Thanks, Thereen 06:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: {{tl|Infobox band}} to {{tl|Infobox musical artist}}

message: :Note: I'm cross-posting this here to solicit more opinion/help. Please don't respond here; rather post any comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers#Proposed new infobox. Thanks
There's been extensive discussion at WikiProject Composers (check the archives) about the use of infoboxes in Composer's bios. The consensus has been that, as currently designed,  and  rarely add much to these articles and are often actively harmful (conducive to anachronisms, overgeneralizations and other inaccuracies). However there's been some passionate discussion and even a little edit-warring.
Since infoboxes seem to be in the ascendancy on most of WP, and since I think the general concept is a useful one, I've "boldly" taken a shot at designing a "New, Improved" infobox specifically for composer bios, trying to maximize the potential benefit to articles while minimizing the potential harm. The "beta" version is here:
:User:Turangalila/sandbox/Infobox composer
The page includes a draft "template-documentation" page with cut-and-paste markup & instructions, plus a few hypothetical examples of the template "in action." I've tried to leave almost all the paramters optional, and to emphasize in both the markup and the instructions that they should be deleted if not applicable, oversimple, etc. Obviously if folks actually want to use it in articles it should be moved to the Template namespace.
Please have a look and comment/criticize/suggest improvements — please leave comments at the WPComposers talkpage, unless they're purely technical, in which case a comment on my sandbox page might be better.
Thanks, —Turangalila talk 17:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed new infobox for Composer bios

message: For those interested in how musicians are classified, but who do not have the WikiProject Musicians/Categorization talk page on your watch list, I have started a discussion here about whether we need the category level of :Category:American pianists by genre, etc, and I would appreciate views being expressed (at that location, of course). My (possibly incomplete) list of categories that would be upmerged if the guidelines change as I suggest is here. Bencherlite 22:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion on eliminating [[:Category:(Nationality) (instrument) by genre]] from the categorization guidelines

message: There have been a growing number of Wikipedians questioning the need for a separate infobox for guitarists. The  was created by Wikipedia:WikiProject Guitarists, and it easily survived a deletion nomination back in September of last year, but that was before  (which is supported by Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians) became a widely accepted standard. Both infoboxes are currently endorsed by Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography, but recent discussions between some members of the Guitarist and Musician Wikiprojects have concluded that it may be time to deprecate the guitarist infobox, and start replacing it. (Unfortunately, this is not a task for bots, and will have to be done manually.)
Before making any final decision on the matter, we would like to get feedback from the broader community, so I am posting this notice to several Wikiprojects which may be affected. Comments should be posted to Template talk:Guitarist infobox. If you have strong feelings about this infobox, one way or the other, please feel free to let us know. Thanks, Xtifr tälk 12:16, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Time to replace Infobox Guitarist?

message: An ongoing debate can be found here . Best regards, Hamster Sandwich 00:05, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed deletion of [[Phil Ondich]] bio

message: I've created an article for this little-known electronic band, but I'd appreciate any help (and a rating). I could use some pictures and more information (especially about where they are now, if anyone can find something on that). --Temporarily Insane (talk) 15:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Alpinestars (band)]]

message: This article is listed as being under the purview of WikiProject Musicians, but there are no independent sources for anything in the article. Could someone please come up with some reliable sources? Corvus cornix 22:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[The Jimmy Swift Band]]

message: There is currently a discussion taking place here regarding whether infoboxes should be used for opera singers. Please weigh in if you'd like. (Notes left at WP:VP, WT:WPBIO, WT:CM, and WT:MUSICIANS.) -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 06:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Infoboxes for opera singers

message: I am wondering if marching bands belong in this wikiproject. The Fightin' Texas Aggie Band just earned FA status. It is a quality article. They do play music, and they are technically a "band". that do you think? Oldag07 12:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well...unlike some of the more pesky over-specialized Wikiprojects, this project doesn't really claim to own articles. So I wouldn't say that it "belongs" to the project. But yes, any musical group would be within the scope of this project, and I'm sure we'd be more than willing to offer advice or help if necessary. But since it's a FA, it doesn't seem like the authors really need our help. It looks like it uses a specialized (and quite appropriate) infobox, and we might want to document the use of that infobox for university marching band articles. And, per our standards, we might want to subdivide :Category:University marching bands by nationality—although it's still pretty small. Aside from that, I don't see much to concern us. Xtifr tälk 11:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Marching Bands

message: The Bio and information regarding the Mary Jane Girls and JoJo the Original Lead Singer needs some
corrections. Please review the following information which can be easily verified by many sources.
 JoJo is the only "Mary Jane Girl " that sung backgrounds for Rick james originally. The other members
of the group were not present Candi, Maxi etc... .. Rick James had JoJo record the first set of songs as a solo project with background singers but, Motown thought the project was the "girl" group he had promised them
 Rick James had no group but, proceeded to acquire who he could to create a "group". The group was formed
around JoJo and her vocal talents. These facts can be verified by reviewing the liner notes of the last
compilation issued by Universal Records "The Best of The Mary Jane Girls" The Millennium Collection which
came out in 2001.
 JoJo has not only been recording and songwriting but, has been performing live shows domestically
and internationally under the name "JoJo" Original Lead Singer of the Mary Jane Girls since 1998.
From 1994-1997 she reunited the group with Candi and Maxi as "MJG". However, Candi and Maxi
quit for personal and reasons unknown in 1996 and 1997.During 1997-1998 "JoJo" recorded on several
projects with Rick James including the "Urban Rhapsody" CD and tour. JoJo and Rick parted ways in
1999 for various reasons. In 2002 , Rick wanted JoJo to re-unite with the Mary Jane Girls. JoJo refused
which led him to bring litigation against her and her to countersue him. This litigation is still pending.
 JoJo continues to tour and entertain millions of fans worldwide with the hits she made famous.,
"Candy Man" "All Night Long" and "In My House" to name a few.She is currently putting the finishing
touches on a solo project titled "Slightly Dangerous" scheduled for release late(2007).When not
peforming JoJo has composed music for television and film.Robert funderburg 21:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds like something you copied from another site. If so, please do not paste it directly into any article. That would be a copyright violation and might put Wikipedia at legal risk. However, if you think you can explain any of that in your own words, please feel free to edit the articles yourself. (Please also add a link to the place were you got the information.) You don't need our permission! Anyone can edit Wikipedia. Be bold! Xtifr tälk 08:27, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mary Jane Girls / JoJo lead singer Bio and Information corrections

message: Is there a preference for whether genres should be listed in one line separated by commas or one genre per line separated by "br" tags? For example, Kiss (band) vs Keane (band). LaraLove T/C 03:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:ALBUM has recently decided on using commas for genres in Infobox Album. Among other considerations... prevents unnecessary capitalization, reduces use of HTML tags, and removes unnecessary height. –Unint 03:45, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a note that a discussion about standardizing the genre field is underway at Template talk:Infobox musical artist#Standardizing genre delimiters. --PEJL 22:43, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Musical artist info box; genre field.

message: User:Mind meal has raised the very interesting question: why do our guidelines endorse :Category:Singers by style and subcategories like :Category:American singers by style, when every other type of musician uses "by genre" instead? We are discussing the possibility of changing this here. If you support or oppose such a change, please let us know. Xtifr tälk 07:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Singers by style, not genre?