Talk:Middle-earth/Archive 4

message: You may add some extra links if you what.Thanks.
:No, not to my knowledge. El_C 02:45, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No. The situations in Tolkien's work where sexual attraction or romantic love was a character's major motivator could be counted on the fingers, and they're all heterosexual. Even if this was not the case he would have been unlikely to include any GLBT characters for a number of reasons. First, he was a devout Roman Catholic and objected to homosexuality on moral grounds. Second, he was part of an informal reactionary movement at Oxford against the kind of flamboyance represented by Oscar Wilde and others, and accurate or not this would have been his main impression of homosexual culture and behavior. He found it repulsive and he was utterly uninspired by it. Third, he was deeply unfamiliar with the subject. He claimed to have not even known what "homosexual" meant until he entered the university. (Since he received a thorough education in the Classics and spoke Ancient Greek fluently at the time, his syllabus must have been heavily bowdlerized.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 03:18, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Are there any [[GLBT]] people (or any hints) in Arda or Middle earth?

message: I found this map on Armenelos. Its not as descriptive as the Numenor map on this article at the moment, but it is public domain. Should it be put in the article? -- Astrokey44|talk 05:23, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There will always be a 'derivative work' question about any map of an area of Middle-earth that maps have been published for already. This version actually includes less 'original content' than the Encyclopedia of Arda map (and might therefor be more likely to be classified as 'derivative'), but as you note, the copyright on it does not prevent downstream commercial use - as the copyright on the Encyclopedia of Arda maps does. Switching to this one makes sense to me. Since it is PD we can probably put some identifying text on it. --CBD ☎ ✉ 11:37, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Numenor map 

message: See: Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29/Archive V#How_about:_Sectioning_off_of.2Fpossible_banning_of_Fictional_Universe_articles.  I hope I am not in violation of WP:SPAM by informing talk pages of some Fictional Universes about this thread.  Perhaps some other fan can pass the word to other relevant interests, or perhaps there ought to be some NPOV template at top of the talk pages. User:AlMac|(talk) 14:50, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fictional Universes not belong in Wikipedia? 

message: For the sake of fairness, here's the quote that may directly contradict Michael Martinez's views, from the Middle-earth canon talk page:
::"But the mythology (and associated languages) first began to take shape during the 1914-18 war. The Fall of Gondolin (and the birth of Eärendil) was written in hospital and on leave after surviving the Battle of the Somme in 1916. The kernel of the mythology, the matter of Luthien Tinuviel and Beren, arose from a small woodland glade filled with 'hemlocks' (or other white umbellifers) near Roos on the Holderness peninsula - to which I occasionally went when free from regimental duties while in the Humber Garrison in 1918.
::I came eventually and by slow degrees to write The Lord of the Rings to satisfy myself..." - JRRT, Letters #165 (~1966)
However, can't we just say that some readers view all of the stuff as one evolving mythology while other readers don't? 
202.78.127.202 03:15, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In some places I've replaced disputed 'mythology' vs 'mythologies' wording with neutral terms like 'stories' (which can then be imagined to belong to one mythology or several)... I'd rather avoid the issue entirely than set up a 'false dichotomy'. It is true that there is at least one person who believes Tolkien meant for the texts in the 'History of Middle-earth' series (and other 'Middle-earth' stories) to represent multiple mythologies rather than one evolving mythology, but I don't think it is an at all common view. The above is just one of several quotations to the contrary from the author... plus various similar statements from his son/literary executor and other authors noted for their works on Tolkien. In the absence of any references stating 'separate mythologies' my first choice would be to leave it out as unsourced, but failing that neutral wording should work. I'd prefer working towards something like that rather than having the 'singular vs plural mythology' disagreement repeated throughout the article. --CBDunkerson 12:56, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mythology/ies?

message: Ok Michael, your block should be expiring shortly so let's try taking these issues one at a time. Starting with the most obvious:
Your various 'Ages of the Sun' changes. Can you provide any reference for Tolkien having used the term 'Ages of the Sun' or described a concept of 'Sun Ages' or 'ages starting with the first sunrise' or 'ages linked to the Sun'? I've looked, and so far as I am aware no such references exist. You alterred the article to state that the 'First Age' began with the appearance of the Sun, but how do you rectify that with;
"It was no longer a birth-tongue but had become, as it were, an 'Elven-latin', still used for ceremony, and for high matters of lore and song, by the High Elves, who had returned in exile to Middle-earth at the end of the First Age." - LotR, App. F
Fingolfin and his followers arrived in Middle-earth just as the Sun was first rising (the Feanoreans not long before that)... which would make it the very beginning of the First Age under the chronology you are suggesting, but here in LotR itself their arrival is stated to have been at the end of the First Age. Is it not clear that the 'First Age' began far earlier, as indeed Tolkien stated unequivocally;
"In those days, in the Year one thousand and fifty of the Valar, the Elves awoke in Kuivienen and the First Age of the Children of Ilúvatar began." - Morgoth's Ring, Annals of Aman, Of the Beginning of Time
In a nutshell... I can provide clear citations (and many many more than just those above if it is really neccessary) from the primary source directly contradicting your position on this. Can you provide anything to verify it other than your belief that "it follows"? If not, I'd request that we restore the previous wording, which was actually neutral on this issue... saying only 'First Age' rather than 'First Age of the Sun' or 'First Age of the Children of Ilúvatar' or any other variation. Can you provide any basis for abandoning that neutral wording in favor of your changes which seem to directly contradict The Lord of the Rings and other texts? --CBDunkerson 02:45, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputes 

message: The new map looks good, but should it be cropped to only show middle earth as shown in the Lord of the Rings? Is this some sort of expanded universe map that was published, or are the extra details to the north and south and some of the towns just made up by someone -- Astrokey44|talk 23:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe much of that map is derived from the ICE MERP materials. It's not even remotely canon. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok ive noted it and moved it further down the page. -- Astrokey44|talk 05:10, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New map 

message: The article says : 'Sauron was destroyed forever and his spirit dissipated.'
Could anybody explaine me how an originally immortal Maia was 'destroyed forever'? I found nothing like this statement in the Lord of The Ring trilogy.Sea diver 09:29, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right that the wording there should be changed.  In particular, the "his spirit dissipated" part strikes me as almost the opposite of the actual story.  But the underlying intent of this sentence is clear, right?  Sauron's physical form was destroyed forever, and with it his ability to substantially affect the world (especially physically).  (It's never been entirely clear to me to what degree Sauron could still exert "spiritual" or "psychic" influence in the world after his fall; it couldn't have been that much, but I've had the impression that some tenuous contact remained.)  Feel free to adjust the wording to better reflect that.--Steuard 15:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sauron's destiny