Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view/Archive 17

message: Greetings. I am here as a volunteer for last one year, and I have been thinking about the Project from various angles. Sometimes, certain words of Sir Winston Churchill have come to my mind. I would like to share the same:
*” I cannot pretend to feel impartial about colors. I rejoice with the brilliant ones and am genuinely sorry for the poor browns.”
*”There are a terrible lot of lies going around the world, and the worst of it is half of them are true.”
I have also heard somewhere that “the truth does not depend on a consensus of opinion.” --Bhadani 06:16, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Many people get confused about what NPOV and verifiability means. This is my understanding: As editors we are not necessarily concerned with asserting "The Truth", or applying value judgments about if there is such a thing or not. WP:NPOV and WP:V may be in the beginning  counter-intuitive concepts to grasp, but these are concept that have enabled Wikipedia to attempt to become the repository of all human knowledge and make it available for free. Has Wikipedia achieved that? Of course not. Will it ever be the case? don't think so. But without such a principle as WP:NPOV and WP:V, this attempt would have never had chance, and most surely end up drowned in the sea of partisanship, politics, advocacy, and what not. ≈ jossi  ≈ t • @ 20:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sharing few words

message: QUOTES FROM: 
"Some argue" is Wikipedianese for "I think". It is a convenient way to bypass NPOV. 
See it for yourself via Google: http://www.google.com/search?q=some+argue+site%3Awikipedia.org
Real search results as of 17-Oct-05 23:34 EST: 
Some argue that a more appropriate standard should be fairness and accuracy 
Some would argue that humans have an amount of hubris 
some argue that hate speech must be regulated to protect members of groups. 
Some argue that small gardens and greenhouses should be favored 
Some argue that anti-LGBT prejudice is immoral or unwise above and beyond the effects on that class of people. 
Some people would argue that the movement is too closely related to communism 
Some argue that even terrorism has undergone globalization 
Some argue that this is an advantage 
Some argue that those who set up access points without adding security measures are offering their connection, sometimes unintentionally, to the community. 
Some argue that a reading of the first two chapters of Genesis produces the impression of two separate accounts of the same event. 
Well, this is something I want to bring up, the "some argue" thing.  I tried it though, and it didn't work for me.  DyslexicEditor 08:56, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect it's true that this happens a lot. But it isn't WP:NPOV. The important thing is whether or not the article answers the question "who argues?", in principle by quoting reputable/reliable sources. Perhaps this type of search can be used as a standard method to hunt down possible (or even probable?) NPOV/NOR violations. Perhaps, as it may well reduce to a method to hunt down articles on controversial subject where weasel words are used to keep the peace... Just for fun I checked one of these statements, Some argue that even terrorism has undergone globalization found in Globalization. It seems this particular statement is unsourced. I think it won't be difficult to find such sources though. One may even find that MANY have argued the point or that it is generally believed. Some other instances of some... in the same article are already sourced by the way. AvB ÷ talk 09:52, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Update - just added some citations to this statement in Globalization and changed "some argue" to "it is often argued". More importantly, it did not pinpoint a serious WP:NPOV violation - just a very sourcable fact that wasn't sourced. AvB ÷ talk 10:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  website claims ""Some argue" is Wikipedianese for "I think". It is a convenient way to bypass NPOV." 

message: Alright, I updated the paragraph to Harald's version, with minor copyedits: removed "in order to affect the public opinion" because the policy would also be opposed to those who try to control information in because they find it offensive and so on; qualified the "liberate us" sentence with "here" since the success of enforcing the policy here is not a guarentee that we will be liberated anywhere else. The final result is:
:There is another reason to commit ourselves to this policy. Namely, when it is clear to readers that we do not expect them to adopt any particular opinion, this leaves them free to make up their own minds, allowing for intellectual independence. We, the editors of Wikipedia, trust readers' competence to form their own opinions. The mission of Wikipedia to provide a "neutral point of view" on all subjects conflicts with the aims and actions of a variety of governments, institutions and individuals who try to influence or control information. As a consequence, there have been and will be actions that go contrary to our NPOV policy. If we succeed in imposing this policy to present multiple viewpoints fairly without demanding that the reader accept any one of them, this will liberate us from attempts to control our opinions here. We trust that those working on Wikipedia will agree that this is a good thing.
--MonkeeSage 08:07, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The above isn't nearly the version to which you objected. Probably you overlooked the continuation of this discussion. Please indicate what you find insufficiently sharp about this version. Do you think that it's really necessary to single out Totalitarian governments in this NPOV policy description, and that it becomes insufficiently "sharp" without it? Harald88 09:25, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

text: My problem with the current wording is that it lambasts three particular objects: Totalitarianism, Dogmatic Institutions and Dogmatism. But Totalitarianism, in theory, is not opposed to the policy (in fact, the imposition of the policy is a form of "Totalitarianism"). Dogmatic Institutions, in theory, are not opposed to the policy (in fact, Wikipedia is a Dogamtic Institution, with its Dogmas being the three policies). And Dogmatism, in theory, is not opposed to the policy (in fact, many Wikipedians hold to the three policies with a sufficent level of moral/intellectual conviction to be considered Dogmatic). Lumière's proposal is better than the current wording, but still targets Dogmatism. Harald's is better because it leaves the readers to decide for themselves what is incompatible with the policy. Mine is best (imo) because it focuses solely on personal responsibility and intellectual freedom, and leaves the reader to decide everything else. But like I said, I'm not dogmatic (no pun intended) about what version we adopt. I am dogmatic that we stop targeting particular groups and levels of conviciton with this paragraph. --MonkeeSage 09:43, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

text: About the author responsible for this language: it sounds like Jimbo, but the first time I saw it published (here), it came from the pen of LWS. At any rate, it's old... AvB ÷ talk 13:26, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I find "this tendency may also prevail within Wikipedia" much weaker than "reason to be opposed to Wikipedia". In fact it's a different thing altogether: the original implies a warning for "bad faith" edits, while the proposed replacement warns for wrong "good faith" edits. Harald88 14:21, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Few days later

message: Is a month of protection long enough? Let's unprotect the page; I don't think we can yet justify that this page is such a problem that that it merits permanent protection under protection policy. BigBlueFish 17:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  Unprotected. JesseW, the juggling janitor 18:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can anyone even justify protecting the page in the first place? Bensaccount 00:11, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You were edit warring; unacceptable for any article, much less Wikipedia's cornerstone policy. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 01:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Really? Where? Why didn't you say so when you protected it? Bensaccount 02:21, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See the history of the page.  I'll back Katefan0 up on this; the edit warring was going on, now AFAIK, it's not.  This is better.  Please don't bring up old issues. JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:26, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is not an old issue. It is still going on right now. It has taken the form of a suppression of opinions. There is still a war between those who see that the current Wikipedia system works perfectly to express their view and want to keep it that way and others who see that the neutral point of view policy is not working. Any intelligent person can understand this mechanism.  Suppression of opinions in such a context is a very bad idea. -Lumière 10:11, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the protection was undertaken simply for the pleasure of exercising control over other people. There was neither a real edit war nor a stated reason for protection. Where is the accountability?  Bensaccount 16:19, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you think it was wrong, feel free to report it at WP:AN/I for review; otherwise, let's get on with building an encyclopedia. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 16:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: I winder if other editors could have a look at Kairouan and give their opinion.  The article described the city as holy, and I changed the summary to read that the city was regarded as holy by Muslims.  Another editor reverted me, insisting that to call the city holy isn't POV.  I don't really see how it isn't, but perhaps I'm wrong.  I'd be grateful for comments. --Phronima 17:04, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are many places of religious significance like Kairouan dotted around the world. It is in the nature of worship to invest places, objects, or individuals with the quality of "holiness" and, if such beliefs are sincerely held, I believe they should be respected. For example, Vatican City is the sovereign territory of the "Holy See", Harmandir Sahib in Amritsar is the most sacred gurdwara in all of Sikhism, etc. To state that a place or fetish is holy or sacred, is neutrally to recognise that belief. To place any form of caveat or commentary on the statement of belief is necessarily to imply that others who either have a different set of beliefs or no beliefs would consider the attribution of holiness to be unjustified. Because it is self-evident that only those within that belief system are likely to hold that belief, actually stating the obvious could be interpreted as an attack upon that first belief system's values. David91 17:51, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This could be a problem. For example, look at the debate about "AD/BC" vs "CE/BCE". Of course, neither system means you do (or don't) believe that "Jesus is Christ," but people on both sides perceive it that way. I say don't call anything "holy" unless you attribute it, because it is not an undisputed "fact," is is an "opinion" held by a specific group and should not be asserted except in the context of the group making the claim. --MonkeeSage 21:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Ps. However, the qualification/attribution should be done respectfully, of course! --MonkeeSage 21:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely a statement that a particular group believe that "X" is holy simply states the fact of what they believe. "Manchester United fans worship their team". But "real fans treat their sport as a religion" may imply that they are extreme as against fair-weather fans or those who have no interest in their sport. David91 02:53, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Kairouan]] 

message: I was reverted for adding "policy" between party and candidate.  I think it's rather obvious that being in favor of a political policy or advocating a political policy is a NPOV violation.  But I was reverted by an anon IP.
Orig: Political bias, including bias in favor of or against a particular political party or candidate.
New: Political bias, including bias in favor of or against a particular political party, policy or candidate.
Comments? --Tbeatty 08:10, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the addition may be seen by some as superfluous, but it's obviously withing the spirit of the NPOV policy in general and the statement "Political bias, including..." in specific. A reversion is uncalled for I think, particularly with an edit summary that levels an accusation of "rewriting NPOV policy to win a content dispute".Saxifrage ✎ 10:49, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Political Bias 

message: The Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#An_example section still contains an example given by LWS in 2001: the abortion article. As a recent editor of the article, I think its current incarnation is not an NPOV showcase as intended by LWS. The version he referred to was created prior to December 2001. And even if we would replace the Abortion link with one to the Dec 2001 version (which for obvious reasons I do not recommend) the example would still lack power since the process intended to be showcased is no longer available. There is no edit history from that period; all we can see is the resulting version. AvB ÷ talk 11:13, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose I think the primary concern should be to make the abortion article conform to the NPOV policy again. Removing/replacing the example before that article is OK again would downgrade the NPOV policy IMHO, as if NPOV would be unworkable for the abortion article. Once that article is OK again, permalinks can be made to the "problematic" situation and "application of NPOV policy" situation, from the "examples" section in the NPOV guideline. Until then, I'd keep the example exactly as it is now: it explains what was done in the past to apply NPOV to that article, ergo: what should be done now to make the abortion article OK again. --Francis Schonken 11:54, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Should the [[Abortion]] example be replaced?

message: You know, I've just realized how many articles on Wikipedia have the NPOV or other similar tags (unverified claims tag, accuracy dispute tag, etc., etc.) slapped on them; maybe almost half of the articles I visit have a tag which disputes the accuracy or "trustworthiness" of the article. It's not a bad thing to let people know about these problems in articles, and I'm in favor of tags; but something really needs to be done about the quality or standard of an article. When about half of the articles on Wikipedia have tags warning about their "truthiness" or quality (probably more, considering there are a lot of articles which have not been tagged and need to be; or are just not paid attention to), something needs to be done. I really am not sure what to do; maybe have a seperate article which explains why Wikipedia should not be your own and only source of information; or hell, why many schools or colleges prefer a student not use Wikipedia as a source AT ALL. Or, maybe you could start a project or some kind of event which promotes a higher standard of quality in Wikipedia articles; particularly in regards to the accuracy or neutrallity of themand maybe even stop promoting beginning writers to be bold, maybe in regards to articles which have few editors (and thus, fewer people to correct or look out for mistakes) because I don't think that's really helpingthis could be shown by having some kind of gauge or bar or rating score for the popularity of an article (and the status of popularity; thus, the number of people who will correct mistakes/accuracy faults) will affect how "bold" one beginning article writer is allowed to be. I don't know. I'm just throwing ideas out there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.6.222 (talk) 
: 24 should be aware that the main difference between Wikipedia and other secondary sources is that such tags can be placed on the articles themselves - one should not have the illusion that other soures are necesarily more reliable or even honestly acknowledging differing points of view!
: Nevertheless, some less "striking" tag options might be useful - to have big NPOV tags above every article or section in which there is a dispute about a minor matter is probably not smart. Harald88 13:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV Tag and other Similar Tags - and quality issues. 

message: Reasons for excluding extreme minority views (EMV)
EDIT IN PROGRESS
Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia. Articles should not be exhaustive dissertations. Articles packed with EMV waste sorely-needed bandwidth and disk space, reduce usability, decrease Wikipedia's reputation as a source of reliable information, greatly increase the difficulty of maintaining reasonable accuracy. Even a valid view that is an EMV can be extremely difficult or impossible to corroborate from multiple credible sources.
Users will have to wade through loads of junk to find anything useful. If EMV are allowed many articles will become extremely long with little useful information.
The mere presence of an EMV in a main article gives the EMV undue weight and, as a practical matter, grossly distorts the presentation of the article or section. People not familiar with the subject could easily be misled into thinking that the EMV is important even if it is held by only one person, e.g., "Albert Einstein, a clerk in the Swiss Patent Office, recently published a paper on what he calls "special relativity". The paper says, among other things, that space and time are not two distinct things." His idea once was an EMV.
If Wikipedia starts allowing EMV, loads of whackos will start adding their pet EMV's as long as they can find at least one published work they can cite. Under Wikipedia reference requirements, sources do not have to be a print work, a web page, or even easily accessible. Even "newsgroup reference" is allowed.
If articles get packed with EMV the overall useability and maintainability of Wikipedia will be severely diminished.
Advocates of EMV frequently have no regard for NPOV requirements and often tend to become abusive, violate WP civility requirements, engage in edit and reversion wars, engage in vandalism, etc.
This was removed from the policy page as it was a substantive addition that had no prior discussion.  FeloniousMonk 00:24, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Like undue weight, the lack of criteria and the vagueness seems to serve as a means to allow users to bypass discussion of reasons for inclusion or exclusion of a view and enforce the removal or inclusion of views based entirely on their personal biases. Bensaccount 01:14, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Maybe it is not so vague in the mind of, and I quote Saxifrage here, "those who have a firm grasp of the policy already". Maybe what is important for "those who have a firm grasp of the policy already" is to make sure that the POV pushers cannot speak of the policy with the same authority as they do. Therefore, it is safer for "those who have a firm grasp of the policy already" that the policy remains vague as it is.  Of course, "those who have a firm grasp of the policy already" are also POV pushers. The difference is that "those who have a firm grasp of the policy already" say that they have the "consensus" on their side, but it is a consensus that excludes so called disruptive editors that do not understand the policy. -Lumière 01:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed from article