Talk:Shenandoah, Pennsylvania

message: I may use http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/12/16/latino.in.america.ch.4/index.html as a source and fill out this article at some point. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:28, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Soledad O'Brien Report

message: After much thought, here are my comments on the inclusion of the Ramirez beating incident in the Wikipedia article on Shenandoah history.
I don’t think it’s appropriate to mention these events, as shocking and awful as they are, as part of the history of the Borough of Shenandoah. They seem too topical, more in the line of current news than under the broad category of history. Views and opinions on this highly-charged piece ought to be discussed in a blog.
While the racially-motivated fatal beating of Luis Ramirez in July 2008 seems undisputed according to news accounts, those charges were not proven in the Schuylkill County Court. And while there seems to be strong evidence brought by the Justice Department that the Shenandoah Police Department covered up their investigation into the beating of Ramirez and may have obstructed justice in this case, these are still unproven allegations that are pending in a court of law. Similarly, there are pending allegations against the police and the Borough of Shenandoah in the alleged police beating in November 2004 of 18-year-old David Vega, a Hispanic, and making it look like he committed suicide in the Shenandoah jail.
I think this piece is biased against all the inhabitants of Shenadoah, while these brutal acts may have been the actions of just a group of teenagers and high school students and a police coverup. Or, if these events reflect the sentiment of a larger part of the town’s population, I believe the town has been thoroughly shamed by the extensive local and national news coverage given this story; Pennsylvania Governor Rendell’s interest in the case; and by the recent federal grand jury charges made public on December 15, 2009. Since two of Ramirez’s attackers, Piekarsky and Donchak, were already acquitted of ethnic intimidation in state court, there is also the possibility that the doctrine of double jeopardy may prevent a similar prosecution against them for a hate crime in the federal courts. There are, of course, federal charges against Donchak for obstruction of justice that are pending.
These events are certainly disturbing and it smells like there’s something rotten in the Borough of Shenandoah. But entering this information into a Wikipedia article on the town’s history seems inappropriate. The proper forum to address these alleged wrongdoings is in the court system, which is now in process, in a blog, or in the community or educational system of Shenandoah. Educational workshops on tolerance are available, such as on the Southern Poverty Law Center website, http://www.tolerance.org/. Programs such as this ought to be integrated into the curriculum of the Shenandoah educational system.
It is my sense that this town is at the boilig point and adding this piece to Wikipedia only adds to the tension. Its Chief of Police is now in jail following a federal magistrate’s bail denial, and three other Shenandoah police are on house arrest pending the outcome of the grand jury charges filed against them. I suggest this piece about the Ramirez beating be left out of this Wikipedia article. When the various federal criminal and other civil trials (in the Vega case and the Murphy case) have been concluded, it may then be appropriate to mention this if there are convictions.
At the very least, the piece needs to be factually corrected. The statement in the article, “Six people, including four police officers, were indicted in the beating of Ramirez on December 15, 2009” is factually wrong. In point of fact, five people, including three police officers, were charged on December 15, 2009 on criminal charges related to the beating of Ramirez. In addition, a fourth policeman, as well as the police chief, were indicted on extortion charges related to illegal gambling in Shenandoah.Krauq (talk) 04:24, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Though this is a sensitive subject and still open to different interpretations, the fact is that the only reason most people will seek out information about Shenadoah is because of the Ramirez incident. Perhaps it doesn't belong in the "History" section, but is belongs somewhere in the article. Leaving it out is only ignoring the fact that something sad and unflattering to the community occurred and is academically dishonest.  I re-inserted the section but did tag it as "Current Event".Wkharrisjr (talk) 14:46, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

text: I assume this is the person who has been removing the section about the Rameriez incident (Please sign you posts as noted below so we can keep track of who is who). I added the "current event' template to the section. Feel free to change the article heading to something you think is more appropriate, but don't continue to remove the article because you don't like the storty. Just becasue other town article doesn't include negative information doesn't mean it shouldn't be included in other articles. In fact, please feel free to add this information (properly cited, of course) to any article you think needs it.Wkharrisjr (talk) 20:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

text: I assume this is the person who has been inserting the section about the Rameriez incident. I see you added the "current event' template to the section, however this really does not address the issue. Just becasue you want to include negative "current events" doesn't mean they should be included.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.10.203 (talk) 21:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see why it should not be included. The Rameriez incident is news that was reported beyond the borders of Schuylkill County and thus noteable. If you are uncomfortable about associating the incident with Shenadoah, how about creating a seperate article and linking it to Shenadoah?Wkharrisjr (talk) 21:39, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

text: It is clear why it should not be listed here. If the requirement for posting was simply that the event be reported beyond the borders of Schuylkill County then a number of events would be listed here and many other town or city pages, in error. If you want to dwell on this sad incident and see it listed on this site you should create a seperate article and link it to Shenandoah.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.10.203 (talk) 13:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Clearly your view and my view of what should be included in Wikipedia are at opposite poles and cannot be resloved in this forum. I suggest we take this to arbitration. Agreed? Wkharrisjr (talk) 20:48, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

text: I agree this news event should not be included on this page and I feel it would be more appropriate on Wikinews.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.10.203 (talk) 14:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Deleting history piece about Luis Ramirez fatal beating

message: Wikipedia editors state that a citation is needed for this part of the article on Shenandoah. However, that may be problematic because the source of that text is ostensibly copyrighted. The Wiki text is almost word-for-word a copy of that supposedly copyrighted text.
The Wiki text in question reads:
The origin of the name Shenandoah is much debated. One theory holds that Shenandoah received its name from an Indian word meaning "sprucy stream" or "river flowing alongside high hills and mountains." Another origin theory is that the town was named after the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia. The Virginia valley in turn took its name from the Indian word meaning "daughter of the skies."[citation needed]
Although no citation is given here, the URL for this source is already listed at the bottom of this Wiki article as an External Link, namely: 
·	Indian names; The origin of the name Shenandoah from Schuylkill County History,
The URL linked to this External Link is the following web page on rootsweb.com, which is accessible:
         http://www.rootsweb.com/~paschuyl/HSSC/indian.html 
The text on this rootsweb.com page reads, in part:
The origin of the name Shenandoah is a much debated one. One theory holds that Shenandoah is an Indian word meany "sprucy stream" or "river flowing alongside high hills and mountains." Another insists that Jacob Oliver Roads named Shenadoah after the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia where he had coal interests. The origin of the Shenandoah Valley, Virginia, is Indian, of course, and means "daughter of the skies."...
On the rootsweb.com page, it indicates that the above text was excerpted from the following publication:
Excerpted from VOL. VI No. 1, Publications of the Historical Society of Schuylkill County (1947), by Herrwood E. Hobbs”
The rootsweb.com page further indicates that:
“All information is copyrighted and sole property of HSSC” [hyperlink=mailto:llward@voicenet.com]
Can the quoted text of the Wiki article on "Origins of the name"  be a verbatim copy of the text from the rootsweb.com page, if the HSSC copyright is valid? If the answer to that question is 'yes you can!' -- then why not just insert a citation to the rootsweb.com page in the main body of this Wiki article rather than list it at the bottom of the article as an External link?
Krauq (talk) 02:35, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins of the name 

message: External links are not displayed in article now. What happened? The links are still listed in edit mode, but won't display. Needs to be fixed.Krauq (talk) 16:20, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links not displayed 

message: Several times an editor has added:
Thomas F O’Neill- author and columnist winner of the national heartwarmers award and the power of purpose award.
to the "Notable natives and residents" of this article. There is no citation for this entry and I can find no independent source for Thomas O'Neil or any of these awards. Please provide either a reputable citation or do not continue to make this entry. Thank you.Wkharrisjr (talk) 12:32, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Thomas O'Neil citation