Talk:Virginia Tech shooting/Archive 8

message: ... and more
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-shooter18apr18,0,2210161.story?page=1&coll=la-home-headlines
134.79.216.76 00:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See above.. 'Second Wave'... I'm pretty sure it's 4chan nonsense again. I can't believe this stuff is getting picked up by the media. 72.66.204.188 03:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A 4chan post decried the way LA Times was blaming the school's online forum for what they pulled off. Not that you should trust anything on 4chan, but... --Kizor 08:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It was mentioned either on this talk or cho seung-hui's that it's not real.Darrik2 21:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: it was a hoax. see archives passim. or even here. tomasz. 21:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Announcement of his crimes on VT's online forum? 

message: ive seen some things from various news papers, and the new york times that the guy posted (around 4 or 5 AM) that he was going to shoot the school up on 4chan.
:It was mentioned either on this talk or cho seung-hui's that it's not real.Darrik2 21:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: it was a hoax. see archives passim. or even here. tomasz. 21:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 4chan /b/ did V-Tech

message: I'm combining a few sections for clarity and ease of discussion, which should make things far less painful for future archive-readers as well. If wrong, slap with fish. --Kizor 08:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: THen I get told off for "taking it out" when i'm the one putting it back in. Violask81976 19:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Because Jack Thompson is a (characterization that would probably constitute eight or nine violations of WP:BLP in a mere five words deleted) and hardly a recognized expert in the field?  Rdfox 76 19:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fox News sure thinks he's an expert, watch the source and they call him an expert on school shootings for some reason. It doesn't matter that it is Jack Thompson, the fact that it is currently considered as a reasoning is enough to put it as a current issue surrounding the shooting. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 19:59, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Despite his perceived lack of expertise, he was recognized as such on national television (Fox news) and has a very loud an powerful platform. Despite his rather unprofessional nature, he makes big waves - waves that get him air time on top rating television news networks.  I'll let Dr. Phil stand on his own. This is a social issue, not all of which are covered by experts, and many of which are not purported by experts. His influence on violence and so forth in the media, however, is undeniable after the 'hot coffee' episode. -William Desby 20:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Baseless speculation has no place in Wikipedia articles. The section itself admitted they have no idea if the perp ever played a video game, they are just speculating without any basis. Do not keep reinserting nonsense. Flavourdan 20:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We know it has not basis. We know that they can't prove the connection. However, before a motive has been made and before any actual connection is made the blame is being placed on Violent Media. It is an issue raised on National Television and as such has a purpose in the section of the article labled as Issues. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 20:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: There are almost 69,000 people playing Counter-Strike [right now]... the fact that he was a fan of it is meaningless.  Reactionary responses from the likes of Jack Thompson are as well - he made those claims before any information about Cho liking violent games even came to light because that's what Thompson does.  I'm a gamer, I've seen a hundred other instances where he's done this... this is no different.  It should not be included. -  Ennuified  talk   01:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I really think he should be left out altogether. He's simply using this to forward his own agenda, and I find that deeply offensive. HalfShadow 02:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: That's hardly factual, even including that would essentially be NPOV, given that he's obviously either mentally ill or pretending to be in order to save face / not appear to be a monster.  Furthermore, if someone is stupid enough to believe that killing someone in real life is as inconsequential and harmless as in a video game, the problem is definitely with them, not video games.  Not to get too discussive here, this isn't a forum, but there's no way that merits inclusion here - or anywhere, unless it's an article about the feebleminded ways shooters have attempted to justify their heinous acts. -  Ennuified  talk   12:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Can we get sources that Cho Seung-hui was utilizing air? Oxygen is the #1 cause of violence! Every violent human is a hopeless oxygen addict. STOP BREATHING NOW BEFORE YOU KILL SOMEONE! 198.6.46.11 15:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I blame the nitrogen. Gregohio 03:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes but a couple of editors keep reinserting these bogus claims, because they were said on TV I guess they must be in the article. Everything that was said on TV should be in wikipedia apparently. Flavourdan 20:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I am sure that is most likely referring to video games. I will edit that. Funpika 20:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It shouldn't be addressed at all unless facts are presented to support the assertion.  --Dan East 03:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Read the article, its happened already. Gdo01 21:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I know Jack Thompson has already got the bandwagon moving on this, as he got on Fox News the night of the attack blaming it on video games, despite there being no information known about the killer at the time.  Freecorbinj 00:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For the love of god, lets leave Thompson out of this article.  He was claiming that the killer used video games like Counterstrike to train before the shooter had even been identified.  The man's a bonafide nutjob and no-one who knows anything about his history of accusations takes him seriously - except Fox News, apparently, who called him a 'School Shootings Expert' or something like that. -  Ennuified  talk  01:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Thompson was on Fox News with in HOURS (before lunch) of the attack blaming it on "evil videogames" I agree with Ennuified, unless we have verifiable proof that video games have any connection to this, let's leave them out.  Currently it's knee jerk reactions of people pressing agendas.Kinglink 16:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Could? How is a possibility relevant? Plus we do not have a reliable source from this. Anything else violates WP:OR. Gdo01 22:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not saying we should include it, but I would say that it is relevant given that the play is violent in nature, is about killing a teacher on a Monday, and the song's lyrics coincide with the times of the killings.  If that's not intentional, it's one heck of a coincidence. -  Ennuified  talk  01:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Not alone, but in conjunction with the song's lyrics ("I get up around 7:00,get outta bed around 9:00") which are eerily close to the times of the two shooting incidents, as well as the play being violent... more than 20%.  I'm merely backing up what I said, I don't particularly hold any stock in it... seems too conspiracy theorist-esque to me right now, but we should keep tabs on it and see if anything comes up.  I doubt it'll ever leave the realm of urban legend founded in rumor, though. -  Ennuified  talk   03:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The killer didn't write plays with references to either of those songs, so I don't see your point. -  Ennuified  talk   12:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My point is that writing a disturbing play based on a song does not equal an influence to massacre. Just like finding 'I don't like Mondays' (A song based on a real event where a girl flipped and started shooting kids on their way to school, with her only reason being, 'I don't like Mondays') in his music collection would not make that song an influence, being a fan of a song about Heroin abuse and writing a play referencing it does not make that an influence either. Spugmeister 13:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Besides, having read the play, I can't see any specific mention of murdering the teacher on a Monday. Spugmeister 14:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gunman's influence claims discussion 

message: I'm not saying that the shootings were caused by violent media. However, two prominent figures have so far gone on televison and claimed violent media to be the source. Therefore it is an issue surrounding the shootings and there is no reason to remove it. It does need editing but removing it all together takes away responses. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 19:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: THen I get told off for "taking it out" when i'm the one putting it back in. Violask81976 19:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Because Jack Thompson is a (characterization that would probably constitute eight or nine violations of WP:BLP in a mere five words deleted) and hardly a recognized expert in the field?  Rdfox 76 19:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fox News sure thinks he's an expert, watch the source and they call him an expert on school shootings for some reason. It doesn't matter that it is Jack Thompson, the fact that it is currently considered as a reasoning is enough to put it as a current issue surrounding the shooting. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 19:59, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Despite his perceived lack of expertise, he was recognized as such on national television (Fox news) and has a very loud an powerful platform. Despite his rather unprofessional nature, he makes big waves - waves that get him air time on top rating television news networks.  I'll let Dr. Phil stand on his own. This is a social issue, not all of which are covered by experts, and many of which are not purported by experts. His influence on violence and so forth in the media, however, is undeniable after the 'hot coffee' episode. -William Desby 20:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Baseless speculation has no place in Wikipedia articles. The section itself admitted they have no idea if the perp ever played a video game, they are just speculating without any basis. Do not keep reinserting nonsense. Flavourdan 20:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We know it has not basis. We know that they can't prove the connection. However, before a motive has been made and before any actual connection is made the blame is being placed on Violent Media. It is an issue raised on National Television and as such has a purpose in the section of the article labled as Issues. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 20:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: There are almost 69,000 people playing Counter-Strike [right now]... the fact that he was a fan of it is meaningless.  Reactionary responses from the likes of Jack Thompson are as well - he made those claims before any information about Cho liking violent games even came to light because that's what Thompson does.  I'm a gamer, I've seen a hundred other instances where he's done this... this is no different.  It should not be included. -  Ennuified  talk   01:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I really think he should be left out altogether. He's simply using this to forward his own agenda, and I find that deeply offensive. HalfShadow 02:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: That's hardly factual, even including that would essentially be NPOV, given that he's obviously either mentally ill or pretending to be in order to save face / not appear to be a monster.  Furthermore, if someone is stupid enough to believe that killing someone in real life is as inconsequential and harmless as in a video game, the problem is definitely with them, not video games.  Not to get too discussive here, this isn't a forum, but there's no way that merits inclusion here - or anywhere, unless it's an article about the feebleminded ways shooters have attempted to justify their heinous acts. -  Ennuified  talk   12:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Can we get sources that Cho Seung-hui was utilizing air? Oxygen is the #1 cause of violence! Every violent human is a hopeless oxygen addict. STOP BREATHING NOW BEFORE YOU KILL SOMEONE! 198.6.46.11 15:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I blame the nitrogen. Gregohio 03:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Violent Media 

message: The line 'It is currently unknown what role violence in the media played in influencing the shootings' should probably be edited to say 'It is currently unknown what role, if any, violence in the media played in influencing the shootings'. At this point even the suggestion that there is a connection between the two is premature and unprofessional. 204.69.40.13 20:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes but a couple of editors keep reinserting these bogus claims, because they were said on TV I guess they must be in the article. Everything that was said on TV should be in wikipedia apparently. Flavourdan 20:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I am sure that is most likely referring to video games. I will edit that. Funpika 20:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It shouldn't be addressed at all unless facts are presented to support the assertion.  --Dan East 03:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More on media influence 

message: Any news yet on blaming video games? They usually get around to blaming them at some point.  The Behnam 21:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the article, its happened already. Gdo01 21:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I know Jack Thompson has already got the bandwagon moving on this, as he got on Fox News the night of the attack blaming it on video games, despite there being no information known about the killer at the time.  Freecorbinj 00:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For the love of god, lets leave Thompson out of this article.  He was claiming that the killer used video games like Counterstrike to train before the shooter had even been identified.  The man's a bonafide nutjob and no-one who knows anything about his history of accusations takes him seriously - except Fox News, apparently, who called him a 'School Shootings Expert' or something like that. -  Ennuified  talk  01:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Thompson was on Fox News with in HOURS (before lunch) of the attack blaming it on "evil videogames" I agree with Ennuified, unless we have verifiable proof that video games have any connection to this, let's leave them out.  Currently it's knee jerk reactions of people pressing agendas.Kinglink 16:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Video games? 

message: Should this be mentioned in the article, it's a play the gunman wrote based on the Guns N' Roses song Mr. Brownstone, in it he writes about a character wanting to kill a teacher on a Monday, which may contain motives as to why he did this. Bucketheader 21:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Could? How is a possibility relevant? Plus we do not have a reliable source from this. Anything else violates WP:OR. Gdo01 22:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not saying we should include it, but I would say that it is relevant given that the play is violent in nature, is about killing a teacher on a Monday, and the song's lyrics coincide with the times of the killings.  If that's not intentional, it's one heck of a coincidence. -  Ennuified  talk  01:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Not alone, but in conjunction with the song's lyrics ("I get up around 7:00,get outta bed around 9:00") which are eerily close to the times of the two shooting incidents, as well as the play being violent... more than 20%.  I'm merely backing up what I said, I don't particularly hold any stock in it... seems too conspiracy theorist-esque to me right now, but we should keep tabs on it and see if anything comes up.  I doubt it'll ever leave the realm of urban legend founded in rumor, though. -  Ennuified  talk   03:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The killer didn't write plays with references to either of those songs, so I don't see your point. -  Ennuified  talk   12:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My point is that writing a disturbing play based on a song does not equal an influence to massacre. Just like finding 'I don't like Mondays' (A song based on a real event where a girl flipped and started shooting kids on their way to school, with her only reason being, 'I don't like Mondays') in his music collection would not make that song an influence, being a fan of a song about Heroin abuse and writing a play referencing it does not make that an influence either. Spugmeister 13:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Besides, having read the play, I can't see any specific mention of murdering the teacher on a Monday. Spugmeister 14:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Influence of Guns N' Roses song

message: I think better support needs to be provided for the statement that the media was split between the positions that gun control could have prevented this tragedy and that gun control in fact caused it.  The Conservative Voice isn't exactly a major media outlet comparable to the NY Times.  I don't have a citation at hand but surely something could be found on Fox or another News Corp property to replace the conservative voice reference?
Otherwise I think that statement should just be removed and let the facts speak for themselves.
Exactly. Wikipedia is not a conservative mouthpiece. That article on media response was as biased as it can get, especially the part about how the university's ban on students carrying concealed weapons contributed to the massacre. such arguments are soo stupid.
I mean, yes wikipedia needs to show both sides of the argument when presenting any case - so that the website comes across as neutral. But to put up ridiculous reasons, that too from really biased sources ('Conservative voice')makes the article biased with a right-wing flavour. please do take note of that article.
Personally speaking, I find it disrespectful to the people that died that somebody on wikipedia had the audacity to make a political statement in the event of such a tragedy.
Hahahaha1 23:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Media Response

message: Part 7 aka Criminal Classification is really mangled, especially the first paragraph. I'm going to try to clean up the language without distorting the content. Feel free to improve on any edits I make. Ikilled007 10:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Screw it, I spent 20 minutes cleaning it up to something passable and got an edit conflict for my troubles, losing the entire edit in the process. Someone else can play with it. Ikilled007 10:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criminal Classification 

message: Maybe add a section more about the aftermath - news 12 long island reported this morning there are 10 copycat threats made across america for shootings in schools across america after this tradgedy.
: If it's cited properly and not speculative, I think it would certainly be relevent. Ikilled007 11:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: God love America, huh? Good thing I'm Canadian, then... HalfShadow 20:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: My sincerest apologies for my un-thinking compatriot above...  God knows we have our share of problems in Canada, too.  CanadianMist 21:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Really? No immediate instances of 'Hey, someone shot up a school, let's threaten to do the same and watch the cops jump' comes to mind. HalfShadow 21:06, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There was in today's Montreal newspapers. A couple of kids who attend St-Lawrence College showed up there with paintguns to scare people. 23:06, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copy cat? 

message: the numbers of death? isnt it 31 only in virginia tech alone and 2 outside the virgina tech area?
:It's 31 (including the gunman) in Norris, the academic building, and an additional 2 in West AJ, a dorm. VTBassMatt 12:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  the numbers of death? isnt it 31 only in virginia tect 

message: The references to Collegiate Times concerning the victims names is an HTTP404 now. Look for another or remove the names. --213.155.224.232 11:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't remove the names, since they were all cite-able at the time.  We'll find another, or go back to citing them from individual media sources like before. VTBassMatt 12:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing Link 

message: Anyone have an idea of what's going on right now? --Starks 12:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Turn on the TV to the cable news networks. --Starks 12:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Tech message board says they are letting people back in.  I imagine we won't find out what is going on until a press conference.--BigDT 12:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: SPECULATION ALERT: Campus of 26,000.  There's bound to be a few jackasses starting scares. --Elliskev 12:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well ... that's true ... except that it's 8:42 in the morning Virginia Tech time so any college student that doesn't have to be awake is still asleep. ;) --BigDT 12:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/18/vtech.security.alert/index.html "we had reason to believe there was a need to secure the president's office" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.95.90.125 (talk) 
I know someone that was just about to drive in front of Burruss hall about 10 minutes ago, and was stopped by policemen - apparently a bomb threat was made on Burruss Hall, possibly President Steger's office. 204.154.43.244 12:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assault vehicles surrounding Burris Hall 

message: I notice that the article currently compares this massacre with previous spree killings and mass killings in the US and abroad, but there is nothing yet to explain the "civilian" qualifier used in the lead section. I suspect that this 'civilian' qualifier is designed to exclude militia and military massacres, such as Wounded Knee Massacre and Mountain Meadows massacre. Should this be clarified somewhere in the article? Maybe the emphasis should be on this being a lone killer, as the examples I give are militia/military units. Carcharoth 12:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Specifically: "the deadliest mass shooting perpetrated by a civilian in the history of the United States" and the historical context that may need expanding is currently at Virginia Tech massacre#Historical context. Carcharoth 12:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And to clarify further, I think the current sentence leads people to think "oh, so there was a military person who carried out a deadlier mass shooting in the United States"? I suspect the sentence is trying to imply something like "peacetime", rather than "civilian". Both the massacres I pointed out were during or in the run-up to wars - specifically the Sioux Wars and the Utah War. Carcharoth 12:54, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Civilian versus military massacres 

message: * could someone put Lauren McCain in alphabetical order in the casualties list? as far as i can see this is the only misplaced entry. i'd do it myself but i'm afraid of breaking the 3-column thing. ta tomasz. 12:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  minor alphabetism 

message: a media response section would be relevant, such as Dr. phil's imediate blaming of vidio games or john stewarts decision to respectfully not speculate about the incedent at this time.Boatman666 13:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Err, Perhaps that can wait until the Media even knows what the real reasons were. That and many the people on as guests are just making rumors and speculations. WillSWC 16:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  media response 

message: I've tried to edit and clean this up several times but it keeps getting reverted by someone who's obviously proud of his/her work which reads:
"Cho Seung-hui was a spree killer. Spree killers kill in two or more different locations but within only a few hours or often just minutes, in contrast to serial killers who have cooling off periods of several days. The case is similar to the University of Texas shooting of 1966, in which the perpetrator Charles Whitman firstly killed two persons - his mother and his wife - and ran amok after a significant pause."
Now I don't know about the rest of you, but aside from the fact that this is very poorly written, it also smacks of original research, provides no citations for such distinctions (serial killers take several days off to cool down between killings?? They never take months or years? They "cool down" as opposed to just do something else, etc.?
I'd really like to see this section made tolerable. Ikilled007 13:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Completely agree. I was about to say it would be suitable for the article just to link to the spree killer article, but looking at that article, it's pretty poor too.  Complete lack of sources cited and also reeking of WP:OR.  How about someone tidies up the spree killer article and we just leave the link, no point expanding on what a spree killer is within the virgin tech article. --Oscarthecat 13:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I vote we delete that section, as the classification of the crime is debatable and there have been no (to my knowledge) authoritative classifications by recognized experts.  The whole "spree killer/mass murderer" difference is vague, as well -- Charles Whitman is classified as a mass murderer, and he killed his mother and wife, then traveled to UT Austin to kill on campus, something that this event echoes.--Tthaas 13:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: word to Tthaas. tomasz. 16:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: This massacre wasn't planned? He just happened to have loads of ammo? I recall reading in a news posting that all the victims were hit 3 times.. with 62 victims that's 186 rounds of ammo if you assume he hit 100% of the time. And what about the chains? He just happened to have them? To me, this seems to have definitely been planned well in advance. --70.161.25.85 14:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: seems like a not-particularly-relevant comparison being taken too far. if people wanna read about Whitman they can do it in that article. tomasz. 16:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section 7 Criminalogical Classification 

message: The "Timeline" section is making the TOC too long, in my opinion. I don't think every date needs its own subheading. Would anybody object if I converted all instances of == Date == to ;Date?↔NMajdan•talk 13:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not at all. Please do. --Kizor 13:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timeline 

message: I have been trying to prune the 'timeline' for things that are obviously not notable including a list of gatherings and get togethers and vigils. If you look at my contributions, I've been removing some pretty silly things that look more like they belong in Facebook, or some kind of events calendar. I keep getting reverted. In the end a lot of these things just will not matter and aren't informative. I'm giving up on removing it for now, and will come back when all the hubbub has died down. This article should have stayed in protective mode for a bit longer. (Bjorn Tipling 14:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Those items were posted when the article WAS semi-protected and under constant Oversight.  Give it a week, then maybe we can consider trimming stuff down.  At this point, though, they qualify.  And the official university memorial service/convocation ceremony would qualify as notable, IMO, if just for President Bush being in attendance. Rdfox 76 14:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia as an Events Calendar 

message: Under the "Preparation" section under "Cho Seung-hui" it looks like big chunk from the top of the article has somehow ended up there.  I'm not sure what belongs and what doesn't.  Can someone who does please take a look at it?  Thanks. Lovelace 14:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed; thanks for the heads-up. A Traintalk 14:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misplaced sections 

message: The "International Reaction" section says that government officials have expressed their sympathy to the American people and the families of the victims because of this incident, however looking at the links in that section a variety of governmental officials (e.g. from Germany) also mention that this incident shows the problematic low level of gun control in the US. The international reaction section was more complete yesterday with separate quotes for different countries, now it omits material information in my opinion. Themanwithoutapast 14:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since that is part of the gun control debate, it is better placed in that section where an opposing view can be cited as well.  To say that this illustrates the problematic low level of gun control in the US is problematic as well, because Virginia had its own laws separate from any other state, and those things are handled at the state level.  Many states and cities have strict gun control laws.--Gloriamarie 16:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The lapsed assault-weapons ban was federal. GregOhio 16:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since no assault-weapons were used in this attack, I don't see how this is relevant.  129.237.2.66 19:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My point was that the gun control debate includes federal laws, in addition to state and local.  Gloriamarie seems to imply that there's no federal role.  Beyond that, the response to 9/11 included chemical plants and ports, even though neither of them were targeted that day. GregOhio 17:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My point was that most particularly relevant laws are made at the state level.  Licensing, permits, right to carry-- that is all handled at the state level.  This is entirely different than centralized governments like the UK.  --Gloriamarie 02:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

text: But this shooting had nothing to do with President Bush.  If this has a place anywhere it would be at gun politics, and a link could be created to that.  129.237.2.66 18:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My point is that Bush is anti-gun control, yet his political ally Howard called us out on the issue. I'd venture that this belongs in an article discussing gun politics in response to this incident. GregOhio 17:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's more appropriate for an article on either Howard or Bush or both.  That has more to do with their relationship than with this particular incident.--Gloriamarie 02:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  International Reaction and gun control debate 

message: A list of the 24 wounded could be provided along with the list of those killed by gunman.
:it could, but there wouldn't be any point at all. tomasz. 16:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Victims

message: I don't know what happened in the past few hours as changes are very hard to track due to the immense amount of edits on this article. Stating this, I am wondering what happened to the original picture on the infobox that had the caption:
Injured students being evacuated from Norris Hall, where 31 of the 33 killings occurred.
I think this particular image gave the article a great sense of identity as does the image in the infobox on the Columbine massacre page. It is also the image that appeared on most newspapers that were distributed on the 17th of April. Views? Opinions? --Ddahlberg 15:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably replaceable fair use/copyvio -  I believe it's owned by the Associated Press. Natalie 15:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it is a Roanoke Times photo distributed by AP. Use on wikipedia is copyvio. 74.140.227.121 01:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original Infobox Picture 

message: Could the content of the letter vfound in Cho's dorm room be elaborated on. I would want to know more about what his letter said, and what he said his reasons were for the shooting. 68.125.51.151 15:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At this point I don't think the letter's been Released to the public so there's no way we could do that. When it is released however I'll look into it being added. WillSWC 16:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So far it appears that the letter has not been released - no news outlets have reported anything other than the quotes we have here. Presumably, since it's part of an ongoing investigation, it won't be released until the investigation is complete, which could take a while. Natalie 16:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Speaking speculatively, they're probably holding back some details from the letter so they can screen out any potential collaborators from the cranks who call in to confess to any prominent crime. It's fairly common practice to keep a few significant details back for this purpose in murder investigations. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 17:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's right, I forgot they do that. I haven't watched Law and Order or CSI in awhile. Natalie 17:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cho's letter 

message: Dwb1133 15:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, and submit that all references to bomb threats be removed until a connection is proven in the media.  This borders on false light (libel). 129.237.2.66 16:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I believe it should remain, however it should be clearly stated that the perpetrator is still unknown -Halo 16:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: *taken in context with the other bomb threat entry, it speculates that the threats were carried out by Cho to test campus security. This should stay if it can be referenced, otherwise it's pretty much original research. tomasz. 16:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *They should stay, insofar as they affected the police's response to the shooting, and provide context for the environment in which it occurred. I don't think we can allege a connection with Cho based on what's known yet, but the fact that the note in his room included a bomb threat does suggest a possible connection. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 16:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * My big issue with the bomb threats being included is that they're wholly without context.  It's speculation (as another user said above) to say that they were "used to test security."  When I was in college we had bomb threats probably...2-3 times a month.  Nobody ever shot up the school afterwards.  There was a fight during one....should we speculate that somebody called it in to get their target out of the dormitory?  The bomb threats that DAY may prove to be a source of interest, but from two weeks before?  There's nothing at this point to say that Cho didn't decide this past weekend to shoot up the school...yet by keeping these in THIS article and linking them with the timeline to the shooting...wikipedia users are making their own facts and implying that the shooter (Hui) likely called in the bomb threats, or that they're at all related to the shootings.  I believe the references to the threats should be removed until authorities can determine if Hui was responsible for them. Batman2005 21:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timeline Comment 

message: The Wikipedia timeline says the Walther P22 was purchased on April 13th, yet the article on MSNBC used as a referance clearly says Feb 9.
--12.109.16.131 16:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From what I can tell MSNBC May be mistaken since CNN, FOX and BBC All say its the 13th. I'll go see If i can find the articles where they say that. WillSWC 16:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Glock and Walther P22 would have to be a month apart to comply with Virginia One Gun a month law because killer didn't fall under any exceptions to that law. Rabbit994 14:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timeline correction 

message: The map image (Image:Norris WestAJ Map.jpg) has a scale in metric only, would it be possible to add an imperial/US customary scale alongside? The Manual of Style reads Conversions should generally be included and not be removed (see here). Thanks CR7 16:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Might be a good request to make at WP:GL.↔NMajdan•talk 17:06, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dual unit map 

message: In the article under "Cho Seung-Hui". A citation has been needed for this sentence: "Blacksburg police confirm Cho was investigated in late 2005 in connection with stalking complaints, but no prosecution resulted". Can someone please edit this so that a citation number can be placed since I cannot put it in as I am new? Here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/
Anilove 18:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Killer's stalking accusation 

message: * How can you chain the doors to school building - there are usually many doors in different areas?
* How many people were killed or hurt jumping from the windows as opposed to being shot?
* How could anyone chain the doors and have no one notice? - in the timeline there is a long time between when the doors are chained and when the shooting starts
* A criticism in earlier shootings is that the police did not enter the building fast enough - any info on how long it took the police to arrive and what they did when they arrived?
* Were the other injuries in the dorm shootings?  I know 2 were killed, but was there anyone else shot during the 7:15 attack?
Normdonovan 18:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questions 

message: It's seperated to make it clear which bits go in where, aid navigation, emphasise that it illustrates things that happened prior to the shooting and leading up to it in terms on gun control, and also to reduce the amount of edit conflicts. I think, at least for now, there's a very good reason to keep it in. -Halo 18:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why there's a "background" section in Gun Control Debate 

message: What about making the section "Cho Seung-hui" the first? Seems to me more consequential. --Abe Lincoln 18:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No objection for 1 hour. Did it. --Abe Lincoln 19:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i didn't notice it. Strongly support putting the "attack" section back at the top as it's what the article is about and as Cho has his own article which gets into all the details on him. tomasz. 20:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Well then revert it. --Abe Lincoln 20:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ok tomasz. 20:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Order