Talk:Bowery

message: Not too sure about the meaning of this para (and see earlier revs).
:This early farm was in today's Gramercy neighborhood near where East 15th and East 16th Streets crossed The Bowery. The farm house was located near what today is 1st Avenue and the road built by Peter Stuyvesant.
Looking for references now to write an explanation. Feel free to revert (as always) if I am missing something here.
Caltrop 14:27, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Farm location 

message: :The proposed move makes sense, but the existing Bowery page should become Bowery (disambiguation).--orlady 21:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously. -- Y not? 03:07, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed move

message: Two items:
Could we reconsider the use of the term reviving (" However, since the 1990s the entire Lower East Side has been reviving.")? The Bowery and the Lower East Side have been vibrant artistic and activist communities all along. If we want to speak of the influx of wealth into the neighborhood, that would be more precise. less subjective.
And fyi:
Their existed a second African Burial Ground between Chrystie and Bowery near Stanton Street. 
Emilyn Brown, archivist, has done a great deal of research on it.
Carolee Inskeep has an entry for it in her book The
Graveyard Shift: A Family Historian's Guide to New York City Cemeteries
(Orem, UT: Ancestry Publications, 2000).  This African, Protestant Episcopal
graveyard--also called Saint Philip's Cemetery--was used between 1795 and
1851.  It was located on the west side of Chrystie Street at numbers 195 to
197, between Stanton and Rivington Streets and went two thirds through the block.
To quote Inskeep, "When the African Burial Ground closed in 1794, an organization called The African
Society asked the City of New York for a new burial ground.  They were
granted property on Chrystie Street.  In 1827, it became the burial ground
of Saint Philip's Church, Centre Street.  Interments probably came to an end
with the 1851 ban on burials below 86th Street in Manhattan.  The bodies
were removed to Cypress Hills Cemetery in 1863."
--Bowerygal 14:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bowery 

message: we need a section on the bowery mural wall. it is a tourist attraction in itself and several museum-grade famous artists have painted it over the years.  i'll try to get some photos some time soon and maybe get some text up here. it'll be a few weeks. of course anyone else wanna add, go ahead. Cramyourspam (talk) 21:40, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  bowery mural wall 

message: The recent discussion has demonstrated consensus that the common name is the Bowery. I propose that we move the page. Any objections? Pburka (talk) 00:55, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No objections but when that happened with the Bronx it got boatloads of attention (mostly from those who had never been there) and took years, if I recall correctly, with a lot of back-and-forthery. I won't have energy for much more than a move vote. JesseRafe (talk) 01:39, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The consensus above is clear, and I support the move. (And, yes, the Bronx took several RMs). Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:52, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

text: Although the Bowery indisputably takes the article when used as a noun in running text in reliable sources, titles and headlines are fundamentally different.  They generally do not take an article, just as street signs and labels on maps do not.  That's why we have "White House" even though no one would write "the President lives in White House". See also Netherlands, Strand, or even Federal Bureau of Investigation, all of which take the article in running text.  The exceptions are mostly titles of literary or artistic works.  And, yes, the Bronx should really be at Bronx in my opinion. Incidentally, I've restored the very beginning of the article to its original wording, because it's not "commonly referred to as" the Bowery, it is the Bowery. 69.95.62.234 (talk) 06:33, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a reasonable argument. As long as the lead says "The Bowery" I'm comfortable leaving the article name unchanged. Consider this a withdrawal of the proposed move. Pburka (talk) 00:56, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, both with the IP poster's reasoning and Pburka's satisfaction as "The" in the lede is enough for me. Ideally this page would have originally been at The Bowery but the hassle that would come with moving it may not be worth the effort. I'm always loathe into going into wikipedia-based rather than content-based potential hullabaloos as that draws the attention of people who have no idea about the subject matter and just want to impose their wiki-will - as seen in basically the entire talk page of Cooper Square, non-local yet nonetheless sudden mavens will try to impose names and labels that just aren't there. JesseRafe (talk) 02:56, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

text: Not to object, but "the Bowery" and "Bowery" can be used interchangeably, the article "the" is optional. Also, either is correct, but to save hassle, I'd prefer keeping it as is.Additionally, I agree with 69.95.62.234. No one would say "I'm going to Fenway (parkway)" but yet it is wrong to say 1000 the Fenway, Boston, MA (as an example address.) Epicgenius(talk to me • see my contributions)  15:24, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed move 

message: Epicgenius would like to add a contemporary map to the article and Beyond My Ken appears to oppose it. Given that this article is about both the street and the neighborhood, I think that having a map isn't a bad idea. However the map which was added isn't very good. The scale is too small, it portrays most of Manhattan, and the lines are too heavy, obscuring the neighborhood itself. If a better map can be provided, I wouldn't object to its addition. Ideally, the map should indicate both the street and the neighborhood. Pburka (talk) 00:59, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't disagree with Pburka - I'd have no objection to a better map. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:32, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: Can we re-add the note "Both usages are correct, as the article "the" is optional. In local parlance, phrases like "take Bowery for two blocks" and "take the Bowery for two blocks" are used interchangeably, but "the Bowery" is the more favored usage."? It seems germane, and besides, this is based off the Riverway note. Epicgenius(talk to me • see my contributions)  15:59, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that's original research (WP:SYNTH). We could say something about mixed use, but only if you provide some examples in reliable sources where "the" is omitted in prose. Please don't use maps, since, as discussed above, they're abbreviated to save space. Pburka (talk) 16:04, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it's not SYNTH. It's plain old WP:OR based on personal observations. Pburka (talk) 19:57, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Same thing with Fenway (parkway), Jamaicaway, Arborway, Dorchesterway and any other street that sounds like a common noun when spoken. "Bowery" fits into that category too. It's simply a language note. Epicgenius(talk to me • see my contributions)  15:00, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Find a citation from a reliable source to support it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:01, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

text: I'm a little flummoxed how "Dorchesterway" could sound in any way like a common noun...JesseRafe (talk) 01:33, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

text: If I added a note to the Broadway article claiming that it's sometimes called "the Broadway" it would be promptly and properly removed. It's not true, and, more importantly, it's not verifiable. The same standard must apply to this article. If you can prove that it's commonly called Bowery by citing reliable sources, you can add the note. Pburka (talk) 02:35, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Alternatively, I can argue that if you can prove that it's called "the Bowery" because of grammar, then I am convinced. Epicgenius(talk to me • see my contributions)  12:18, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a Master's degree in Linguistics and no clue what you could possibly mean by "because of grammar". Enlighten us so that maybe this conversation can end? JesseRafe (talk) 22:40, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I am comfortable with saying "Meet me at the McDonald's on Bowery". To me, it is grammatically correct. Epicgenius(talk to me • see my contributions)  15:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note 

message: Some addresses on the Bowery in Chinatown say that they are located "Bowery Street"—for example, the storefront on 90 Bowery says "90 Bowery St." Should I note that the Bowery is sometimes erroneously called "Bowery Street"? Epicgenius(talk to me • see my contributions)  15:45, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a reliable source saying that it's sometimes erroneously called "Bowery Street", or is this your own (original) observation? Pburka (talk) 18:19, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: @EG: Just leave it alone, please  We're not in the habit of noting every mistake people make in addresses unless it's somehow significant, and to show significance you need an RS which discusses (or at least notes) the significance.Are you getting how this works yet? Your personal observations are unusable original research period, full stop, end of sentence.  Your observations can be used to prompt you to do research on the subject, but in and of themselves they cannot be used on Wikipedia.  Please do not ask this question again in any other circumstance, because the answer will be the same - if the only thing you've got is that you saw it or you heard it, or someone told you, you cannot use it on Wikipedia.  Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:00, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note 2 

message: The neighborhoods navbox was incomplete, so I added some links, though someone should correct these if possible. – Epicgenius (talk) 13:30, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you please clarify which links you added, and which ones are incorrect? Pburka (talk) 13:43, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. Civic Center, SoHo, NoHo, Alphabet City, Little Fuzhou, Little Italy, and Two Bridges. I think these are accurate, but Beyond My Ken reverted them with the summary , so I'm wondering what the more accurate setup is. Epicgenius (talk) 13:48, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume you're referring to the surrounding neighborhoods. This dispute seems easily resolved. If the changes are correct simply add a reference to a reliable source supporting your changes. Pburka (talk) 13:52, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Problem is, some neighborhoods overlap and others are in more than one direction in regards to the Bowery (e.g. ABC CIty is both east and northeast, depending on the section). Epicgenius (talk) 13:54, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not a problem unless you're engaging in original research. On Wikipedia, a fact is only true if it is supported by reliable sources. If a reliable source says that the Bowery borders SoHo, then it does. Otherwise it does not. Pburka (talk) 13:58, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the other neighborhoods are supported by reliable sources. The closest I have to an accurate map is . (About.com is an accurate source but does not mention the Bowery as a neighborhood, but rather as a street. And here, not the best drawing.) Epicgenius (talk) 14:04, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The Bowery is a rather unusual neighborhood. It is primarily defined by one street, and doesn't have particularly well defined borders. Your research suggests that the best thing to do might be to remove the surrounding neighborhoods from the infobox until reliable sources can be found. Pburka (talk) 14:31, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Primarily, yes; however, unsourced navigation boxes are actually the norm, as navigation boxes do not come with a pre-programmed reference parameter. – Epicgenius (talk) 16:09, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see WP:OSE. Infoboxes are not exempt from our citation policies. And I have no idea what you mean by a pre-programmed reference parameter - in my experience reference tags work as expected in infoboxes. If you can't provide references for the surrounding neighborhoods, they should be removed. Pburka (talk) 16:35, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I;ve removed the box, which was not only inaccurate, it was fairly useless as well. BMK (talk) 17:04, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

text: Thank you for the link, but I am far from being a new editor. Anyway, what I am talking about is the lack of existence of a parameter called |references =, for the references in the infobox. – Epicgenius (talk) 00:08, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neighborhoods 

message: I'm confused about where the two marginally different pronunciations in the lede are coming from, but also the importance of that slight distinction here on Wikipedia. The citation provided by JesseRafe is Dictionary.com, where I see only two pronunciation options given: /ˈbaʊ.ə.ri/ and /ˈbaʊ.ri/. The dictionary also gives the comment "1695-1705; bower+ -y," which seems to show more about etymology than syllabification. Where on Dictionary.com does it make the difference between a definite New York pronunciation versus a (presumably) more "generic" English pronunciation? I certainly am not finding that information and wondering whether it's of any real importance here. Wolfdog (talk) 18:29, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Assuming no one disagrees and Jesse has no response, I'm planning to simplify the WP pronunciation. I can even provide both of Dictionary.com's pronunciation options in one with this: . Wolfdog (talk) 17:27, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine. I see now that dictionary.com's phrasing can be ambiguous, whereas I thought it was clear that the only pronunciation that was relevant was that of the meaning where it is related to the Dutch word "farm" as that is the clear referent and origin of the term in New York. JesseRafe (talk) 18:41, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The Lorenzo da Ponte article says he ran a grocery store in Pennsylvania, and a bookstore in NYC. It also does not mention his business being in the Bowery. Please reconcile the two articles. —howcheng  {chat} 06:40, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lorenzo da Ponte 

message: In the films John Wick 2 and 3, Laurence Fishburne plays a character called "Bowery King". If this is the same "Bowery", would someone ( more competent than me at such things ) like to add it as a reference ? Thanks
GeoffAvogadro (talk) 11:51, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: You would need a citation from a reliable source which says that the nickname specifically refers to the street in NYC. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:47, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  John Wick film reference ? 

message: Which spelling was used at the time in New Amsterdam, "Bouwerie" or "Bouwerij"? It seems the former might be slightly more archaic according to wikt:bouwerij, or maybe it's just another form of anglicization.--Pharos (talk) 18:41, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking further into wikt:-ij#Dutch and wikt:-ie#Dutch, it does look like the general evolution in Dutch was from "bouwerie" → "bouwerij" (possibly, → "boererij") → "boerderij".--Pharos (talk) 15:10, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bouwerij vs. Bouwerie and [[Middle Dutch]]