Talk:Australian Liberal Students' Federation

message: About the "not very significant electorall" - my intention with this was to point out that the ALSF have an impact on NUS inconsistent with their actual numerical strength. It may have been phrased dismissively, but probably something along those lines should be included in the article. The ALSF are quite small nationally compared especially with the two biggest Labor factions, but that doesn't mean they don't influence NUS conference greatly. Lacrimosus 21:18, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A number of reasons, I think, the biggest one being that student electorates always and everywhere are more radical than the general population. Also, the paramount issue for students, unlike the general electorate, is education policy, where the government is unpopular. It's interesting to note that with UK Labour in power attempting to introduce tuition fees, the radical left groupings have gained in influence. The same thing happened to the the Australian NUS when Labor was in power federally. Lacrimosus 23:13, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: earlier comments

message: I am not a Liberal but this article is heavily biased against them and seems to be written by someone wanting to disparage them. One user is keen to reinsert descriptions of them as "controversial" etc. I doubt they are any more controversial than any other group. DarrenRay 08:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Those words were written by others, and were included in reverts made by me. The controversial nature of ALSF's involvement in NUS is notable. I removed unfounded statments as to the activities of ALSF at NUS conference, as you note above, giving both views (ie, opponents claim they disrupt confenence, ALSF claims they are being gagged).Theusualsuspect 08:10, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Congratulations! You've just given away the fact that you're here on a political mission. Wikipedia isn't the place for "controversy" (oh, my!), it's the place for encylopedic information. You can have all the controversy (oh, my!) on your own blog if you so wish; but not here. michael talk 11:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bias

message: I agree with removing those links:
#The liberal party is a right wing party and that wording was redundant
#The language and links were POV
#The young liberals do not have any representation at NUS. It is only Liberal alligned students.
Xtra 07:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  external links 

message: I note none of the other factions have been subject to this level of scrutiny... LibStu 12:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi LibStu, I understand what you're saying but the higher the scrutiny of an article the better I would have thought because it results in a better quality of article.  While I think all those notices look pretty ugly, they do comply with wikipedia policy (most import one here being that it is an encyclopedia not a free promotional web-tool).  If you wish to scrutanise other articles about 'factions' for their complience with wikipedia policy I would encourage you to do so, they all seem pretty poor to me in NPOV and referencing terms.  Thanks,  WikiTownsvillian 13:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh look, I don't dispute the value of some of the tags, I just find it interesting to note that. I t is for this reason that I havn't removed any of the tags, although, having said that, it might be easier simply to consolidate them somewhat. Might I suggest, however, that some of the other editors here actually assist in the editing and help try to improve it?
LibStu 00:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I agree, although I wouldn't know where to start to find sources, tell-all books like John Hyde-Page's are not really neutral sources.  When it comes to student politics maybe there just isn't enough published about it yet for there to be articles at the level of factions within student politics. Thanks, WikiTownsvillian 04:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with WikiTownsvillian. If we can't find third-party sources to prove notability for these student organizations, then they don't really pass the test of being "encyclopedic."  For those factions, I recommend we either merge summarized information about each faction into a centralized page, or move all the information to some other more appropriate wiki where the notability requirements aren't as high. For example, this would probably be good information to add to the Australia wiki at Wikia. --Elonka 04:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You have to realise however that, unlike the other NUS factions which exist soley in the context of the National Union, ALSF has its own independent existance, organises its own seperate events, conferences, media, receptions, lobbying etc. It has a much longer history (since 1948)tha any of the other NUS factions (the oldest of which is a little more than a decade) and I would argue that the argument fors ALSF staying on Wikipedia as a seperate entity, and not being merged, are even stronger than those that apply to any other faction. LibStu 06:15, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is only one test for a subject's notability as far as I can see and that is that it has enough independent references to source about the article's subject matter.  WikiTownsvillian 09:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with Elonka and WikiTownsvillian. Does the greater public actually have an interest in the existence of the ALSF and other factions? Given that most uni students don't even care about student political organisations. LibStu is the communications director of Sydney University Liberal Club so you wonder why he is so strong in maintaining this article. 210.56.72.220 11:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  In addition, LibStu. You do not own Wikipedia articles relating to Liberals and student politics. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia not a self-congratulatory tool to promote "ALSF has its own independent existance, organises its own seperate events, conferences, media, receptions, lobbying etc. It has a much longer history (since 1948)tha any of the other NUS factions" . All Wikipedia articles have a much higher level of scrutiny and objectivity than content derived from www.alsf.org.au 210.56.72.220 11:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Firstly, can people please stop assuming my identity. The fact that I am a Liberal Student is not exactly a secret from my username. Let's not get above ourselves by claiming who I am without any evidence. In response to some of the concerns raised, I think that the fact that the ALSF site references major newspapers, the NUS webpage, parliamentary debates & hansard and so forth, I don't think comments that all it sites is the ALSF page are particularly justified. Yes I certainly agree that the page needs work, and I am attempting to do this, however improving these sites takes time. My point regarding the separate identity of ALSF as a body is that its achievements and activities extend beyond NUS (eg read page 9 of the Australian Financial Review today), and so to simply make it a subsidiary of the NUS page would not be accurate. In general can I point out though, that up until the little flurry of activity the last few days, generally all the factional pages had been edited by people from all factions with a nice consensus reached, but anyway. I reaffirm my point though that at least I'm attempting to do something about the problem, none of the other factional pages are, yet I am the one who gets criticised and has all the tags on the ALSF page because of certain people's petty personal grudges. I just hardly think it's fair. The page isn't perfect, sure, but at least I'm trying. I do think that the pages of various factions do deserve to stay here, and, to quote, we're not there yet, but we're heading in the right direction! LibStu 01:51, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Re today's article, the AFR site is password protected so I can't actually link to it. I have a PDF of the article though so if someone can explain to me how to upload it I would appreciate it. LibStu 06:46, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  neutrality 

message: I have fully protected this article due to edit warring – please resolve the dispute though discussion. I remind both Alans1977 and LibStu of the three-revert rule and civility guidelines.--cj | talk 05:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there any place we can ask other wiki editors to look at this? As I have stated from the outset, I am more than happy to let this issue go if some consensus is reached, hence why i began this discussion - I do take objection to what I consider a valid point for discussion being labelled 'vandalism' and reverted by Alan, without him addressing my points in the slightest. In anycase, it would seem that me and Alan shall not be able to resolve this, although I do believe that MichelleCrisp & I seemed to be coming to a consensus, so as I asked previously up here, is there any place I can go to refer this for outside advice? Wiki project australian politics or something? LibStu 06:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made a request for input at WP:AWNB.--cj | talk 06:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I did not see compromise between you and User:Michellecrisp. I've seen you thinking that putting a reference to the ASLF constitution was a compromise. While I do not have a problem with the placement of a link to the ASLF constitution it certainly does not reflect a compromise in the difference of opinion about the relevance of the disputed material. Alans1977 06:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  My comments were based on teh fact that  Michellecrisp did not make efforts to reinclude the disputed  paragraph, and that the debate moved away from the disputed material to how best to clarify the relationship between ALSF/YL's etc, so I formed the opinion, particularly from her saying "we need more evidence" that we coudl reach a comprimise. Appologies if i am mistakenLibStu 06:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'll leave that for User:Michellecrisp to comment on. However the mere fact that she did not re-include the material you removed does not constitute a compromise by a long stretch of the imagination. Alans1977 06:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Compromise? I don't think so. See the comments I added today. Michellecrisp 03:42, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  My apologies for being of the belief that people here were trying to resolve this dispute and work together. I retract that statement. Sorry. LibStu 07:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Weasel words again. I'm trying to work together but I don't think compromise has been reached yet. Michellecrisp 07:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  Michellecrisp stating that she does not believe a compromise had been arrived at equals not trying to resolve this dispute and not work together? Quite a combative stance to take for someone claiming to try and reach a consensus and resolve a difference of opinion. Alans1977 13:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article protected

message: Can this please be placed in the page under the National Union of Students section. It is directly relevant to actions of ALSF members. "In July 2006, Young Liberal Movement was the subject of controversy after the ABC's Lateline program aired footage from the 2005 National Union of Students' conference in Ballarat. The video showed Liberal students chanting "We're racist, we're sexist, we're homophobic". The president of the New South Wales Young Liberals released a statement condemning the outbursts , ABC News Online, July 19 2006 , while the Queensland division of the Young Liberals pointed out that, while one prominent Young Liberal member was involved, the students were delegates elected by their university's student body, as such they were members of the [[Australian Liberal Students' Federation]." Alans1977 06:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no objection to something of this nature being added. I would, however, seek for it to be slightly edited to reflect that they arn't acutlly members of ALSF (ALSF as discussed previously being a federation of independent clubs, clubs are members) as well as to reflect that ALSF responded by stating that, as a body, it has no authority over the conduct of individual delegates at NUS. so I'm happy with that included, because it did directly affect the Federation, but I think that those two ammendments would be justified. LibStu 06:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your playing with words. Clubs are associated with ASLF and individuals are associated with clubs, so by direct connection the individuals involved are connected with ASLF. Whether ASLF has power over their actions or not. Alans1977 06:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  As I said, it is a fair point hence why I'm not objecting to the content being included. I just think it be fair to make the distinction. LibStu 06:52, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've disabled the editprotected request. Editprotected's are usually reserved for non-controversial edits (e.g., typo fixes, etc.). There's clearly still discussion in progress. Please feel free to re-enable the request if there is clear consensus for a change. Cheers. --MZMcBride 02:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: More material on this subject to be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO7knUNlJso&watch_response (footage of the incident) and http://www.abc.net.au/stateline/qld/content/2006/s1700124.htm (transcript of the footage). I think so far, no one has argued against the inclusion of this material. Sounds like a consensus to me. Re-enabling tag. Alans1977 06:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Young Liberals and Liberal Students definitely like doing things together, http://www.younglibs.org.au/news/news_200604.php isn't the distinction that Young Liberals are Lib Party members under 30 whilst students are those attending uni and affiliated to a university liberal club?  Michellecrisp 07:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Two quick points. Firstly, that is not the correct distinction - The Young Liberals are formally affiliated to the Liberal Party, and as such, members of the Young Liberals are members of the Liberal Party. The ALSF is independent from the Liberal Party, and you can be a Liberal Student without being a member of the Liberal Party. Secondly, regarding the proposed paragraph, it does not address the point I made previously about the role of ALSF in the context of NUS and that ALSF claims no jurisdiction in this regard. You can say alsf came under criticism for their response, but you should include it. (nor, I might add, does it mention the fact that the students involved pointed out that it was a sarcastic chant in response to them being labeled racist for attempting to unveil the Australian flag at conference floor, something which, obviously, the ABC decided to exclude from their broadcast) LibStu 07:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: yes I'm aware that technically an ALSF member doesn't have to be a member of the Liberal Party, my previous statement just said students are affiliated to a uni club. As for the sarcastic chant defence, I've heard it before but there appears inconclusive evidence that it was sarcastic. I'm definitely not concluding yet that it was or was not sarcastic. Michellecrisp 07:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  What you mention, in regards to the chant being a response, is not documented. As per the actual students not being members of ALSF (by nature of its structure), it is irrelevant. The students are associated with individual Liberal clubs which in turn are members of ALSF. They clearly come under the umbrella of ALSF. It is clearly correct to associate them with ALSF. ALSF's structure/constitution is irrelevant. The student's involved have been identified by persons of your own political persuasion as being associated with ALSF. Placing in disclaimers, as suggested by you, is playing with words and contrary to the ordinary usage of the English language. Alans1977 13:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It certainly is a problem with the way verifiability works here that the Lib students who were interviewed and said it was sarcastic were not quoted by the ABC and as such I can't see how we can include this response; perhaps include it but simply put a 'citation needed' tag? As for the structure of ALSF, I do believe it is relevant because, unlike NLS/Unity &c which have internal member disciplinary proceedings, the ALSF as a body has no power whatsoever to control the behavior individuals. As an organisation governed by a constitution, it must act within the law. Even if every single member of the ALSF Executive unanimously condemned a Liberal Student, called for their expulsion etc, it would matter naught. I think that this is highly relevant. I would like to note that according to the most recent issue of the ALSF publication, the ALSF constitution is being re-written to update it and to try to resolve some of these problems. In anycase though, you can certainly condemn the behaviour of individual liberal students, but you need to recognise that only their clubs have the power to discipline them, not alsf, and that alsf can not be held responsible for their behaviour. Or at the least state that that is what ALSF's stance is. LibStu 00:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would be happy to note that the ASLF students were chanting as a sarcastic response to SAlt chanting as long as a  'citation needed' tag was included. Alans1977 04:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  I note Alan you seem to constantly remove every negative piece of commentary from the SA Wiki... funny, that. LibStu 00:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  LibStu, I've added a bit of material to the SA Wiki which reflects on them in a negative light. See the last paragraph, where I added a link to an incident involving them at ANU. I personally witnessed the incident and thought it was hilarious. The linked interview does however make them look like a bunch of loonies. The one thing I have removed is a reference to horseshoe theory, which is a POV laden, highly debatable theory of questionable validity. It's only fair that if I ad something that reflects bad on them (while maintaining a NPOV), that I remove something that does display a POV and is of questionable validity. Alans1977 04:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok i'll concede that LibStu 07:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NUS Conference 2005

message: A few corrections to this section that I believe are necessary.
1) The final sentence in the first paragraph states "The "AUS folded in 1984 after a lengthy campaign by the Australian Liberal Students’ Federation"" and references http://www.unistudent.com.au/about/nusinfo.pdf. The sentence places undue weight on the actions of the ALSF in the downfall of AUS. Especially considering the reference states "The AUS folded in 1984 after a lengthy campaign by the Australian Liberal Students’ Federation, the Fraser Government and state Liberal Governments to destroy it." I think it would be appropriate to replace the sentence currently in the article with the one from the reference if the sentence is to remain.
2)The third sentence of the second paragraph reads "The ALSF asserts NUS to be simply an excuse for Labor students to spend students' money on political campaigns, citing the large sums of money used by NUS to campaign for the ALP in the 2004 federal election.". the second part of this statement makes a very strong claim that is not backed up and should be removed.
3)The first sentence of the fifth paragraph states "No other faction carries the notoriety attached to the ALSF at NUS National Conference". This is simply untrue and needs and edit. SAlt certainly have as much notoriety. Perhaps "ALSF is one of the more notorious factions at NUS Conference." While on the subject of NUS Conference, I think it would be correct usage to change all references to "NUS National Conference" to "NUS Conference".
4)The sixth paragraph is simply wrong. The votes of ALSF delegates only mattered once Student Unity lost delegates because of the loss of accreditation at one of their strongholds. This needs to be reflected, as the current sentence gives to much weight to the power of ALSF. Else the sentence needs to be removed.
5)The seventh paragraph is far from perfect, especially given some ASLF students saying afterwards that this would send NUS to the wall the fastest and was therefor why they acted as they did. A NPOV way of putting this paragraph would be "Despite attempts by Student Unity to gain the votes of Liberal Students in favour of Unity Candidate Camden Gilchrist, Liberal Students delivered their votes to to Mathew Chuk, a member of the Independents faction, thus ensuring his victory"
Alans1977 14:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've read it and you would have to be careful about what parts of it are reflected as it makes a lot of claims that would need to referenced if they were included on this page. Go ahead and write something and others will see what they think, I guess. Any thoughts on my comments above? Alans1977 04:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Oops, missed the first paragraph of what you wrote earlier. On the topic of 5)Even disregarding the alleged comments of ALSF delegates, the sentence I have suggested as a replacement is a lot more NPOV. I also think this paragraph should be merged with the one before it. So far we are agreed on 1, 3 and I don't see any reason why you shouldn't agree with my proposed replacement in 5. Alans1977 05:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

text: As per showing the same level of scrutiny to other factional pages. I only have some much time in one day and I've have shown the quite a bit of scrutiny to the SAlt page at least. I'll get around to the other pages, if I feel like it and when I have the time. Alans1977 06:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I've disabled the editprotected request while discussion continues. Cheers. --MZMcBride 00:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  National Union of Students section 

message: http://andrewlanderyou.blogspot.com/2006/07/big-brothers-liberal-sex-attack-rocks.html
What are peoples take on adding some material about this to the page? Alans1977 17:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not very impressive to say the very least, however I don't think a blog can be considered a reliable source, that is actually the problem I have with all these student faction articles, there is very little neutral sources of information. Thanks, WikiTownsvillian 23:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As charges were never laid, and the allegations never proven, I think including unverifiable information would be contrary to wiki policy. Otherwise I believe that there will be many, many more allegations cluttering up all the student political faction sites detracting from their main points. LibStu 00:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some backup here http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:hXiH09FVDKAJ:kieranbennett.com/blog/%3Fp%3D101&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=au&client=firefox-a I'll attempt to find a better source.
again this is a blog. Michellecrisp 05:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Not even a blog but a comment on a blog. Orderinchaos 08:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sexual Assualt at ALSF Conference 2006 

message: Do people think it's more precise to classify the ALP as social democratic, rather than center-left. By the same token do people think it's more precise to classify the Coalition as neoliberal, rather than center-right. If anyone has any input into this please see the discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Australian_federal_election%2C_2007#Description_of_ALP.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alans1977 (talk • contribs) 21:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ALP and Coalition ideology 

message: Just undid a massive act of vandalism that removed almost the entire contents of this page, without discussion. Alans1977 (talk) 01:30, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070212204902/http://www.aph.gov.au:80/senate/committee/eet_ctte/completed_inquiries/1999-02/vsu/report/c01.htm to http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/eet_ctte/completed_inquiries/1999-02/vsu/report/c01.htm#FOOTNOTE_2
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thread_title:  External links modified