Talk:Christian views on birth control

message: Alienus,
*1. If you're not an administrator, then you don't have any right threating to ban anyone. 
*2. Cultural references exist on many Wikipedia articles. There is no reason why it shouldn't be on this page. 
Captain Jackson 00:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, I've never seen this much reverting of my work before. This article is pretty short for one which so many people seem to care so much about. Captain Jackson 07:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The pop culture info does seem very out of place for this article. CyberAnth 02:06, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pop culture additions 

message: Much of the information is referenced within the text, e.g. "Pope Pius XI's 1930 encyclical entitled Casti Connubii" or "In 1968 Pope Paul VI released an encyclical titled Humanae Vitae".  There are also three direct references.  They are html tags rather than formally typed out, but that's an editing issue, not a reference issue.  I guess I could understand using the 'fact' tag for specific claims, but I'm puzzled at calling the entire article unreferenced.Lyrl 22:36, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are numerous other statements made in the Catholic sections that are not cited. Can anyone more knowledgable than myself on Catholic views provide them? I'd like to get this article fully up to Wikipedia standards and then submit it for peer review. CyberAnth 04:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreferenced portions 

message: This section could really use some expansion, since Protestantism and its views are so diverse. CyberAnth 02:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, I expanded it and removed the Please Expand request. Thoughts? - CyberAnth 19:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Protestant section

message: The version of this article http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christian_views_on_contraception&oldid=47313646 that contains info from Catholic philosophy is very good and fitting.  Why was it removed?  CyberAnth 02:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Catholic philosophy

message: I realize this article contains several instances of weasel words, which I am currently working to remove. Please feel free to step in to do it before I do.  CyberAnth 05:51, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Weasel words

message: Per the Wikipedia article size guidlines, it appears time time to make two articles of this one while making this one somewhat more brief. I plan to do this shortly.  Anyone else may feel free to beat me to the task. :-) CyberAnth 08:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article has not reached that point yet. There isn't even a size warning on the edit page (look at an article like Jesus. When you hit the edit tab, you will see a size warning at the top). I also think, if the article does get to that point, that we should work on one spin-out article at a time, using the largest section as the one to simplify here and expand in the spin-out (instead of creating 2 or more new articles at once). Just some thoughts.--Andrew c 22:47, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Time to make two articles?

message: I introduced this as a delimter to this article to define "Christian" per Nicene creed#Controversy_of_Christian_definition. It was removed. I think it should be placed back in. Moreover, the rest of the article focuses only on views of Nicene Creed adherents so to place the delimiter in is to be accurate. CyberAnth
:It adds nothing to the article, except confusion stemming from a theological controversy that doesn't need to be addressed here. The title of the article is "Christian views on contraception" not "Nicene Christian views on contraception" or "Trinitarian Christian views on contraception". I understand the article current does not discuss and Restorationist sects, but is there a reason why we should exclude in the future views of Mormons of Jehovah's Witnesses? Would we need to create another article on top of this one just to include them, if we decide at some point that their views on contraception are relevent? Seriously, I see no reason to make the distinction. There is no need to clarify the word "Christian" in this instance, and not only does it unnecessarily exclude sects, it introduces a theologically dense conflict that is off topic to this article. I would like to know why the current and long standing version of this article is somehow inaccurate? Is there precedent for this destinction on wikipedia (look through the "Christian views" articles here). Anyway, hope this explains my reasoning for removing it.--Andrew c 21:46, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reasons is because it is a very contentious issue to call sects who reject the Nicene Creed "Christian" and to not make the distinction is misleading and transference technique. To not stipulate between Nicene creed adherents and non-Nicene creed adherents is to actually introduce confusion. Self-referencing as "Christian" is far to minimalist of a definition. One might as well confuse Mormon and JW articles by introducing Catholic and Protestant views under a Mormon or JW label. No ecumenical movement of Christians (e.g., the World Council of Churches) in the world accepts non-Nicene Christians as Christians indeed so to include them in an ecyclopedia as such is on shaky ground. If at some point non-Nicene crede adherents who go by "Christian" wish to be included here, it would be completely misleading, confusing, and again transference technique, to not give them a seperate section called something like "Non-Nicene Crede Adherents". Placing the delimiter is an attempt, and I would argue required, to avoid a complex and heated argument! Here is a VERY long and still ongoing one Talk:The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints#.22Consider_themselves....22 in case you'd like an example. CyberAnth 23:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are completely correct that it is controversial to call Mormons and JW's Christians. However, I believe you are wrong that it is necessary to avoid confusion to clarify the groups that are NOT controversial when called Christian. I agree, if we ever add LDS, or Adventists, or JWs, we should note that they are not nicene. However, Protestants and Catholics and Anabaptists are all, uncontroversially "Christian", and therefore it is not important to bring up this debate here.--Andrew c 23:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that, I am satisfied with leaving the delimiter out for now and placing it back in at a point whenever/if ever non-Nicene Crede views are incorporated. Peace. CyberAnth 00:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed! Glad we could clear that up. And just because I've been thinking more about this. "Nicene Christianity" and Christianity are basically synonymous, so it would be giving undue weight to a minority view (non-Nicene Christianity) to qualify the mainstream with theologically dense language everytime the word is used.--Andrew c 00:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nicene Creed Christians

message: I'd like to get this article really tight and submit it for good article review and status. Here are some things I am thinking should happen before that.
# All assertions missing references need them
# The sub-section Christian_views_on_contraception#Background needs to be expanded
# The Catholic views section - what about a section on the philosophical debates on this subject? There used to be one in this article but it was removed and completely unreferenced 
# Additional editor input/feedback on all sections. Is anything important being left out? Emphasized wrongly, too strongly, or not enough? Etc.
# Links section needs some work
# The Intro needs some expansion and improvement so it gives a better overview of the whole article
# Others?
Thoughts?
CyberAnth 06:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: How to improve this article?

message: John Paul II, 17 July 1994:
Sources are http://ccli.org/nfp/morality/churchteaching.php and http://www.freehomepages.com/nostradamus/conjugalove.htm
This might be good to work in.
CyberAnth 20:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Interesting Papal quote

message: The second picture is more tasteful, though I'm not sure either one of them adds much to the article.  The subcaption is informative and relevant, I just am not connecting to the image itself. Lyrl    Talk     Contribs   12:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have any better ideas for an image? CyberAnth 05:47, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Onan picture 

message: In the late 1990s there was an ongoing discussion of this issue in the smaller presbyterian denomination known as the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. An issue of the denominational magazine (New Horizons) was dedicated to discussion of whether birth control was permissible. For ongoing issues, letters to the editor were written back and forth between those opposing birth conrol and those condoning it as a decision made between husband and wife. Such sharp disagreements emerged over this issue (and over the celebration of Christmas) that soon the editorship of the magazine changed, and the magazine's emphasis changed from emphasizing the diversity in the denomination to emphasizing was unites the denomination. I'm sure you may be able to find some of those issues to add to the protestant views section.Gregory Y
:Facinating! CyberAnth 18:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Views within Reformed Protestantism 

message: I have posted at the village pump to try and get some more discussion here. I find the use of quotes and images rather unorthodox. Do we really need internet promo-headshots of those being quoted? And do we really need so many quotes? Wikipedia should not be a collection of quotes (that's wikiquote), but instead concise encyclopedia articles summarizing our cited sources (quotes can help, but shouldn't be the meat of an article). These are my concerns, and hopefully some 3rd parties will arrive to agree or disagree with me.--Andrew c 15:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I plan to reduce the number of quotes through summarizing and paraphrasing but will not get to it until sometime after the New Year. CyberAnth 17:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments on quote and image use 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Fullquiver.jpg

message: :Image:Johnpiper.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Johnpiper.jpg

message: Sin of Onan
most see Onan's real sin as failure to fulfill the terms of his Levirate marriage (Yibbum), even though the Bible says failure to fulfill this term is humiliation not death, according to Deuteronomy 25:5-10.[51]
The statement here makes it seem as if Onan was commanded by God to be living by the Law of Moses. The Yibbum as established in the Law was generations later than Onan's time. It was Onan's father Judah that commanded Yibbum, not God. And was Onan's pretense and rape (sex by pretense) of Tamar who'd just suffered a triple pain (husband just died, he was childless and she's still childless). If failure to Yibbum was the crime Onan was killed for, then why wasn't Judah also killed for not allowing his 3rd son to preform it? And besides that, The Law added quite a few limits to punishments. Eye for an eye is a famous limitation (as in, only an eye for an eye and no more than an eye). The Hebrews, after the Law was given, lived under its rule and protection. After the Law was fulfilled, Christians were no longer under its rule but also not under its protection. Case and point, Ananias and Sapphira pretended to donate the proceeds of their land to the church but kept some back. They also were struck dead, and a twofer no less. Both parties pretended to do the right thing outwardly but tried to secretly reneg. Both parties premeditated their ruse. Both parties tried to get their pleasure without the responsibilities. Both parties were pioneers in their crimes (1st fake donation for their eras) and so had to be made an example of. Neither party was under the protection of the Law  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.109.248.53 (talk) 12:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Onan died long before Deuteronomy was written 

message: It should be noted that for over 120 years artificial birth control was against official LDS Church teachings, and remains against the teachings of most 'Mormon Fundamentalist' groups.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobeyjaggle (talk • contribs) 08:15, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latter-day Saint beliefs 

message: I removed the quotation by "Jeremy R. Pierce."  I don't know why the views of a relatively unknown PhD student are placed on this page next to well-known evangelicals, to whom his opinion is then compared (e.g. Rainey, Dobson, Jordan, Mohler, Payne).  For this reason, the quote seems out of place in the article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.193.168.178 (talk) 22:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed Jeremy R. Pierce quotation 

message: At the end of the "Current View" section of, "Roman Catholic Church", I have added: “For an anthropological (non-religious) evaluation of the effect of contraception on marital love, see C. Burke: "Married Love and Contraception" Osservatore Romano Oct. 10, 1988"I think it would be helpful to add  indirect web-reference, e.g. “(this can be consulted at www.cormacburke.or.ke)”, or a direct link. My reasons are as follows:
	1) The article is by a well-known canonist-theologian. It is original in that it does not argue from any religious premises but simply weighs in exclusively human terms the effect of contraception on married love.
	2) The Osservatore Romano as the official Vatican newspaper, is well-known to be very selective in what it chooses to publish. Publication there (especially on a controverted theme) is a clear indication that the article in question is considered to make some new contribution to more better articulating the Catholic viewpoint (the newness in this article consists mo doubt in its anthropological and not theological analysis). The Vatican website does not carry Osservatore Romano articles, so we are dealing with something of interest which the average reader cannot access except through Burke's website.
	There is a special reason why I bring this up for discussion here. My admiration for Wikipedia had been growing; and some ten weeks ago I put in a few contributions - including some references to articles by Cormac Burke, a former Judge of the Roman Rota (the High Court of the Catholic Church) with a lot of publications in both the canonical and the theological fields (many available only on his website: cormacburke.or.ke). Ilkali jumped on this as spamming (see my Talk Page) and deleted the lot. Maybe my initial inserting was inept (being new at the process); but I denied and deny there was any intention of spamming, that is, of linking for REASONS OTHER THAN MERIT. With lkali, and then with Jaysweet who seemed to take over, I tried to have the MERIT of the articles debated, especially the two outstanding ones: on Concupiscence and this one on Contraception. Over two months, they have evaded even a minimal debate. Neither has taken the trouble to read the article (cf. Jaysweet's last, where he thinks it is a book). Jaysweet says his stance is simply an exercise of necessary editorial control. I can only regard it as thought control or deliberate censorship.
	I am informing Jaysweet of this. If any other editor objects to the insertion I have made, and further to the idea of linking, I would ask him or her to produce reasoned arguments a) why the article cannot be regarded as having any merit as a contribution to this debated question, and b) why one does not want to facilitate reference through linking to it.Finisklin (talk) 15:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "and some ten weeks ago I put in a few contributions - including some references to articles by Cormac Burke". Your edit history will show that almost all of your edits on this account, up to the point that I contacted you, were insertions of references to Burke's work, some of which (eg, your addition to God), were indisputably inappropriate. There is a clear conflict of interest. Ilkali (talk) 09:04, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roman Catholic: current view 

message: The Protestant views section is very complex because of issues surrounding Protestant pluralism. I am therefore tempted to fork the article into a smaller but more relevant article on Protestant social doctrine. ADM (talk) 19:18, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Protestant views

message: Along with the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, many people would have a problem with labeling the Unification Church as Christian. In any case, I have found evidence that suggests that Moonie leaders have opposed contraception, and might be using their sizable media influence (UPI, Washingtonn Times, etc) to give support to the established positions of the Roman Catholic Church  ADM (talk) 03:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses are not generally considered Christian, so I wonder why they have been included in this document.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.91.202.176 (talk) 15:07, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Unification Church

message: The Eastern Orthodox section ends with:
[ref1] is to an article about sin by the Orthodox Church of America, and that article makes no mention of contraception.
[ref1] and [ref2] are references to printed books which are both by Ignatius Brianchaninov, 1807-1867.  So the citations if correct would support: One 19th Century Russian Orthodox priest considered using contraceptives to be a mortal sin. But that is a big – and unsubstantiated by the citations given – jump to: Some Orthodox Christians ... consider using contraceptives to be a mortal sin.
I suggest that either we find a better citation for Some Orthodox Christians ... consider using contraceptives to be a mortal sin, or we change it to: One 19th Century Russian Orthodox priest considered using contraceptives to be a mortal sin, or we remove that sentence.
Jinlye (talk) 18:43, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Some Orthodox Christians..."?  Or one Orthodox Christian from the 19th Century? 

message: The links to the Humanae Vitae article are not working (I'm having trouble editing and correcting it). 
Twillisjr (talk) 22:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Humanae Vitae 

message: I removed the position given by the editor of a weekly newspaper editor in the Lutheranism section of the article. I would remove the position of the chief editor of The New York Times, unless he was a highly respected Christian or Lutheran scholar or leader, or unless he was somehow highly involved in a convention to make or clarify the Lutheran church's position on contraception. I would even remove the position of the editor of the largest Lutheran newspaper in the world, unless he had qualifications beyond being a newspaper editor, however, he would still have to talk about the views of Lutheranism rather than his own personal views. Even if an editor has an extensive knowledge of Lutheranism or an education in Lutheranism, in my opinion, he must be a respected scholar or an important Lutheran leader to have anything relevant to say. This article is about the entire church's view on contraception, not an individual's view. 
If one deems that this person's views are relevant despite my comments above, there are additional reasons not to include these particular views. There is no indication that the newspaper is highly influential or widely read. While it may be a long running publication, it does not seem to have a large circulation given its data on Alexa.com (check the data details). Even if the newspaper subscriptions are mostly on paper, I would still expect much greater online traffic for a newspaper of substantial size. 
Finally, in the "about us" section of his website, the editor writes, "Promote a Twenty-First Century Reformation because the major have departed further from God's Word than Rome did 500 years ago at the first Reformation." This quote is his entire "vision statement". I am not try to take anything out of context. However, there is more information on his views in the "mission statement" and "strategy" sections of that page. I believe that the word "major" in the quote may mean the majority of Lutherans or the majority of Protestants. Either way, this is a rather radical position. It suggests that his position on contraception may not reflect the view of the Lutheran clergy or Lutherans as a whole. The newspaper's website is located at christiannewsmo dot com.
If anyone disagrees with my removal of the material, please feel free to express your comments below. If you want a response from me, please leave a notice on my user talk page. -- Kjkolb (talk) 07:30, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Lutheran position on contraception given by a weekly newspaper editor 

message: To my surprise, the main body of the text has zero hits for the word 'Bible'. Where did these views on contraception come from, are they not Biblical? Renard Migrant (talk) 19:22, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bible 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Christian views on contraception. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20080905223156/http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/contraception-early-church-teaching.html to http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/contraception-early-church-teaching.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The paragraph, Lutheranism, begins with the sentence, "The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America allows for contraception in the event the potential parents do not intend to care for a child.[48]", citing  "Journey Together Faithfully: ELCA Studies on Sexuality, Part One" http://download.elca.org/ELCA%20Resource%20Repository/Journey_Together_Faithfully1.pdf
There are two problems:
1. The sentence is not an adequate summary of the statement in "Journey Together".  The accurate quote is
"When a woman and man join their bodies sexually, both should be prepared to provide for a child, should conception occur.  When that is not their intention, the responsible use of safe, effective contraceptives is expected of the male and the female. Respect and sensitivity should also be shown toward couples who do not feel called to conceive and/or rear children, or who are unable to do so."  Also, the quote is set in the context of a much larger document that provides a much richer treatment.
2. "Journey Together" is not an official pronouncement of the ELCA.  It is a study document, intended for the use of congregations and individuals in their efforts to understand this subject.  For an official position, one should turn to the ELCA Social Statement, "Abortion" which says, "Whenever sexual intercourse occurs apart from the intent to conceive, the use of contraceptives is the responsibility of the man and of the woman."  http://download.elca.org/ELCA%20Resource%20Repository/AbortionSS.pdf
These statements give a very different color to the topic.  Far from merely "allowing" contraception, the ELCA says that contraception is a "responsibility" when conception is not intended.
7802mark (talk) 22:56, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  ELCA View Misrepresented 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.anabaptistethics.org/holding/Anabaptist%20final.pdf
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Christian views on contraception. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140714165746/http://www.abortion.org.au/abortion-perspectives/christian-views-on-contraception-and-abortion to http://www.abortion.org.au/abortion-perspectives/christian-views-on-contraception-and-abortion
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Christian views on contraception. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://wayback.archive-it.org/all/20080102121628/https://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=27&cuItem_itemID=490 to https://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=27&cuItem_itemID=490
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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:59, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: — Assignment last updated by Selfrink (talk) 03:09, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: JMC 440 Research Methods in Public Relations