Talk:Chełmno Land

message: Old Map of Culmerland/Kulmerland in Prussia
Wikipedia article Chelmno Land as of Feb, Mar 2006 is completely oneside POV. It does not portrait factual history.  
MG 2/2/2006 , 3/10/2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.39.36 (talk • contribs) 00:08, 10 March 2006
:To improve the article, it would help if you listed here which text you disagree with. Olessi 18:25, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old Map of Culmerland in Altes Preussenland - Ancient Prussia 

message: I am a visual person. 
Can we have the ancient and modern maps of Chelmno Land as well as a map showing the location within Europe. Thanks --Jim Jacobs 05:18, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maps of areas mentioned.. 

message: In was wondering about the current name "Chełmno Land" which according to post 1990- Google Books hits is not used at all:
*"Chełmno Land" date:1990-2008 0
*"Chelmno Land" date:1990-2008 2
*"District of Chelmno" date:1990-2008 3
This compares to
*"Kulmerland" date:1990-2008 54
*"Kulmerland" -Komet -ship -Schiff -sea date:1990-2008 41 (excluding uses that point to Kulmerland (ship) of WW2)
**Kulmerland" +the -Komet -ship -Schiff -sea date:1990-2008 15 (excluding uses that point to Kulmerland (ship) of WW2) enforcing English use
**Kulmerland" +das -Komet -ship -Schiff -sea date:1990-2008 26 (excluding uses that point to Kulmerland (ship) of WW2) enforcing German use
*"Culmerland" date:1990-2008 7
*"Kulmer Land" date:1990-2008 78 (mostly in German)
*"Kulm land" date:1990-2008 0
*"Culm land" date:1990-2008 0
*"Culmer Land" date:1990-2008 1
*"ziemia chełmińska" date:1990-2008 19
*"ziemia chelminska" date:1990-2008 4
Thus, I suggest a move to "Kulmerland", as used in English, among others on Google Scholar, by
*Medieval Missionary: A Study of the Conversion of Northern Europe Ad 500 to 1300, by James Thayer Addison, 2003
*The Close of the Middle Ages 1273 to 1494 V3, by Sir R. Lodge - History - 2005
*Castles of the Western World: With 240 Illustrations, by Armin Tuulse - Architecture - 2002	
*Social System, Rationality and Revolution, by Leszek Nowak, Marcin Paprzycki - Social Science - 1993
*Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages, by André Vauchez, Richard Barrie Dobson, Michael Lapidge - History - 2001
*Teutonic Knight by David Nicolle, Graham Turner - History - 2007 - 64 pages
-- Matthead  Discuß   20:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not convinced; your above numbers don't exclude German language publications for Kulmerland, for example.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  23:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Does not convinced also apply for the current title? I have listed 6 clearly English books above, taken from the first page with 10 listed, of the above 41 hits for the non-floating "Kulmerland". And there are also the hits for "Culmerland", almost all in English. Anyway, English use can be easily enforced with "the", which yields 16 hits compared to 26 German (by "das"). So more modern books on Kulmerland are published in German rather than in English (or Polish), hardly surprising. Besides, does that support the current title in any way, which still stands at 0 with the diacritic, and 2 without? And these two are odd mixtures of German and English published in Poland - as is this edit. Reminds also of the article created under "Chełmno law" instead the proper Kulm law. The land was and is defined by the deal between Conrad and the Order, and subsequent 700+ years of German settlement. -- Matthead  Discuß   02:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  May I suggest a WP:RM? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  22:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  May I suggest doing as you did several times elsewhere - moving, and salting the redirect to prevent restoration? -- Matthead  Discuß   22:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done. -- Matthead  Discuß   20:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Matthead, may I ask you to revert this rename and file a proper WP:RM instead, as Piotrus suggested above ? --Lysytalk 07:36, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name? 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Object. Kulmerland (Polish administrative region of ziemia) is not the same as its bishopric.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  18:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *Comment: This article seems to be not about a Polish administrative region but about the German period. The bottom line, the title should be spelled in English and I have already suggested an alternative since the bishopric was only a part of the historic German province, other parts were administrated by the Teutonic knights. --Termer (talk) 05:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Apparently the article was moved based on this discussion above , which was used as a pretext for moving the article and salting the redirect (so that it couldn't be moved back). It also seems that most of the hits for the German name "Kulmerland" were for a ... ship, rather than a place.
Most strikingly though is that the claim that there is 0 hits for "Chelmno land" is completely false, as evidenced by the very gbook link provided - in fact that very link shows 63 hits.
Now, ok, I understand that if we're talking about the part of history, 1226–1466, when this place was a Teutonic province then Kulmerland might be the appropriate title. However, currently the article is totally schizophrenic. The text is obviously about more than just this place's time as a Teutonic province - the history goes from 1065 until 1945 (and should probably go further into near past). Yet the infobox, which I'm about to delete since it is not appropriate for THIS article, is about the 1226–1466 period.
So what I think should be done is that a proper "Kulmerland" article on the Teutonic province for 1226-1446 should be created (though the title Kulmerland (Teutonic province) might be better, while this more general article should be moved (ugh, manually) back to "Chelmno land".Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:27, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have time to rewrite/split the article, great. I think your split proposal makes sense. Alternatively, looking at the pl wiki, note that the article there covers the territory history up to present. If we mirror this, then the article could be moved to the Polish name, as it would no longer be about historical, but present entity. Within the article, of course, it would make sense to have a section entitled Kulmerland, about the period it was a Teutonic province. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  20:14, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, this article already does cover the history of the region from 1050 or so until 1945. The bogus nature of this article can also been seen in the first sentence: "Kulmerland is the German name for ...". It's basically as if someone moved the article on New England to Neuengland and changed the first sentence of that article to "Neuengland is the German name for..." So the fundamental problem here is getting the article moved back to the name it should be under and fixing the disruptive salting of the previous name.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:41, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

text: Also, note that the part of the article which is about the Teutonic Knights is only three sentences long.Volunteer Marek (talk) 10:02, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kulmerland, Chelmno land 

message: Just by inspecting the dates of the events given in the current version, the region's history between 1200 and 1900 seems underrepresented. In particular, the region's German history should be treated in a neutral manner.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stan Tincon (talk • contribs) 15:11, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Much of history is lacking