Talk:Fetter (Buddhism)

message: This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:22, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: Hi Elvenmuse -
I see you recently made a number of edits to this page, many of which are laudable for the accuracy and conscientiousness.  You probably don't hear it enough though you should:  Thank you, Elvenmuse, for making Wikipedia a better resource for the world!
There were a couple of related edits though about which I'd like to share with you my thoughts, if I may:
# the translation of "kāmacchando" was changed from "sensual desire" to "sensual craving"
# "craving" was then wiki-linked to a WP dab page:  Trishna (instead of, e.g., Taṇhā?)
# a query/comment was inserted stating:  "kāmacchando or kāmatrishna? sutric reference missing for kāmacchando".
I'd like to start by addressing the last point first because, I think, without suttic [neologism alert?] authority, the other two issues are kind of dubious, yes? :-)  So, if I may point out, and perhaps it's something worth changing (?), I put the references for this list's elements at the very top of the list, so it wouldn't have to be repeated for each item.  It's currently end note #6:  
These fetters are enumerated, for instance, in SN 45.179 and 45.180 (Bodhi, 2000, pp. 1565-66). This article's Pali words and English translations for the ten fetters are based on Rhys Davids & Stede (1921-25), p. 656, "Saŋyojana" entry (retrieved 2008-04-09).
So, the end note explicitly identifies Samyutta Nikaya (SN) 45.179 and SN 45.180.  While I don't know of a widely recognized authoritative online English translation of these suttas, here, e.g., is one redaction of the former sutta's Pali text:  http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/14S5/1/1.14/1.14.9 .  Also, if you look at the referenced "Rhys Davids & Stede" text (i.e., the PTS Pali-English Dictionary entry), you'll see that that entry references the following suttas:  "e.g., A i.232 sq.; ii.5, 133; v.17; D i.156; ii.92, 252; M i.432; S v.61, 69; Th 2, 165; Pug 17" (using PTS notation -- let me know if you'd like me to translate :-) ).  So, addressing the third point first, these are some sutta citations, which have been placed at the beginning of the list.  (Perhaps a different method of citing these might be desirable?) 
Addressing point one, the end note associated with "kāmacchando" (currently, #10) explicitly states: 
Bodhi (2000), p. 1565 (SN 45.179), Gethin (1998), p. 73, Harvey (2007), p. 71, Thanissaro (2000) and Walshe (1995), p. 26, translate kāmacchando as 'sensual desire.'
(For that matter, if you dig into the aforementioned PTS PED entry for "chando," you'll see there too that "kamachando" is translated in such a manner.)  Thus, given all these well respected authoritative translations, would it not be best to go with the translation of these reliable sources?
As for point #2, well, if we are taking about chando and not tanha, then why wiki-link :-) ?  (If you're inclined though, there is a smidge of a entry re: kaama in Buddhism at Kama#Kama_in_Buddhism :-) )
So, might we revert back the kama[c]chando-related changes?  Thanks again for all your thoughtfulness and integrity.  Best,
Larry (24.225.66.184 (talk) 16:03, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been three weeks since posting these concerns and a suggested action to be taken, without any response.  So I'm going to go ahead and implement the suggested action. - Larry (24.225.67.227 (talk) 20:09, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "kāmacchando" vs. "kāmatrishna"