Talk:Noongar

message: There have been three changes made by an unsigned member that are contentious POV statements that have no source cited.  These are all against Wikipedia policy.  Unless in the next 24 hours the person who made these changes can reference them, I will be editing it back to the previous statement. John D. Croft 02:43, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The latest unsigned changes

message: It states that the Noongar "tribal lands".  This is in error as the Noongar did not live in tribes.  I have amended it appropriately John D. Croft 09:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Tribal lands"

message: SeanMack 14:24, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: gone

message: If anyone's wondering, I have removed the reference to Sally Morgan's famous book because, while she grew up in Perth, she is not Noongar; her family were from much further north, near Marble Bar. Chrisell 17:05, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Significant edit

message: Surely there's a book?User:SatuSuro 12:02, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the (now deceased) missionary linguist Wilf Douglas wrote a book on Nyungar. I'll put in a reference to it sometime. Dougg 02:52, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Biblio?

message: The article is incorrect where it states that 'some linguists regard modern Noongar as a dialect of English'. It is clear that 'modern Noongar' has been to a fair extent re-modelled along the lines of English, but it is certainly not a dialect of English and I know of no linguists who have claimed that it is. Unless anyone disagrees, I'll take that comment out sometime. Dougg 10:40, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I've had a chance to check this properly and it is as I thought. The late Wilf Douglas coined the term 'neo-nyungar' to refer to the particular Aboriginal English used by Nyungar people, which includes elements of Nyungar. He did however distinguish between 'Neo-Nyungar' and 'Nyungar'. Ethnologue seems to have incorrectly equated 'neo-nyungar' with 'Nyungar', showing them as equivalents on the pages at English and Nyunga. Dougg 02:52, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you please cite your references. In which  paper did this chap "coin the term", and which writings have people misunderstood?  and who is Wilf Douglas anyway? If he is notable, then perhaps he ought to have a page of his own. jmd 06:28, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

text: When I wrote that I put a reference to the book by Wilf Douglas (in which he first uses the term 'neo-Nyungar') in the 'References' section of the article. Do you think there should be an inline citation as well? Good point about a page for Wilf Douglas, I'll start one asap. Dougg 11:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Neo-Nyungar confusion

message: Ok, I've put up a page on Wilfrid Douglas. As you'll see he did some significant work on Noongar. Probably the second 'modern' (-ish) linguist to work on the language after Gerhardt Laves (oops, there's another page to create!)  Feel free to expand, improve, etc.. Dougg 06:27, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wilfrid Douglas

message: :The Noongar considered themselves civilised, especially in comparison with the 'invading' British. Reflecting this attitude, they called the newcomers 'Djanga' (or 'djanak'), meaning 'white devils'. [4]
Every reference I've seen on this topic stated that the Noongars believed that the white people were the returning spirits of the Noongar dead.  Hence 'Djanga': "spirits of the dead".  This notion that the Noongars thought the Europeans uncivilised is news to me.  Considering the reference is to a blog, I'm inclined to remove it and insert the "accepted" version.  Any comments? User:Hesperian 00:40, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That para is POV and I agree it could be toned down to what you suggest -- —Moondyne 02:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Djanga

message: I have heard reference of an aboriginal liason group, I am unsure if they are police officers or just employees of the police force, who deal with aboriginal people specifically when they get drunk or rowdy, apparently it has smashing success rates of reducing trouble as it removes the 'us and them' scenario prevalent in our society when it comes to indigenous crime rates and the like.  Is there any chance of a reference to this bunch on this article as I'd love to read more about them and the concept behind them!  Jachin 11:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is mentioned in the article but only in passing. Here's some links , , , . I added it originally but I would also appreciate someone knowing more about it adding more detail. Cheers SeanMack 13:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I appreciate those links.  It was interesting when I first saw the difference in Western Australia as to New South Wales as far as cultural based attitudes towards indigenous people go.  To be honest the aboriginies from NSW, WA and QLD for example look like completely different nationalities, each having different behavioural traits and characteristics from environmental and cultural upbringings.  I was warned to 'be careful' in Western Australia and on my first day there a group of 18 aboriginies ran down the street in underwear with war paint on smashing shop fronts and beating random people.  I was slightly taken aback given that I'd never seen such behaviour, then a mini bus load of men in fluro shirts pulled up and had words with them.  I swear that was more effective than some arrogant cops busting down on their arses for getting rowdy.  I just couldn't believe how a small group of blokes could settle down such an angry mob.  I think it's a brilliant idea!  :) Jachin 03:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Noongar Patrol

message: Is this the same Noongar people that is being reported a lot in the news recently? 
I have very little knowlege or understanding about the relevant issues, so do not feel I am qualified, but I feel there should be something about the native title claim in there.  Anyone feel like volunteering? :) Chovain 00:23, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Woops - I just noticed this is covered in "Economics".  Is this the best place for it? Chovain 00:31, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Native title claim 

message: It is the same people 'as seen on TV'.  I think that Native Title coud do now with its own section.  Economics would seem a bit mischievous as there is no effect on other titles. Fred.e 17:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, native title deserves a section of its own.  And while "negotiations" is better than "disputes" (edit made today by an IP address), it's also in court.  And the the government is not the only respondent.  Let's have a clearer statement of the situation. Callophylla 10:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re; Native title 

message: The reference provided states that Yagan was shot by a shepherd in return for a published reward. This is not a murder because by definition murder is an unlawful, wilful killing.
In view of this I have changed the wording of the sentence to something less emotive.Garrie 09:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Murder''' of Yagan 

message: The Ngaanyatjarra people of the Sandy, Gibson and Victoria Desert Region of WA are covered very well.  I have started articles on the Yamatji and the Wangai, which need a great deal of work.  Please folks, your contributions would be gratefully received. John D. Croft 06:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Other Aboriginal Groups of Western Australia

message: I removed the line about a 'broader accent' in the south being the reason for a different spelling. I don't know what 'broader accent' means, and I'm not sure it means anything particularly. Dougg (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 09:02, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: 'broader accent' ??

message: I've tag this section as unsourced which it is, I also have concerns of the way in which people are descibed I have never heard of a "Perth Type" to refer to a subgroup/family grouping for Indigenous peoples. My intention is to remove this particular description, and I have removed the use of "type" in the headings. Gnangarra 11:41, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  subgroups -- unsourced 

message: ===== Of Men and Women =====
From Madge V., "New perspective", Letters to the Editor, Victoria Park Examiner, 29 February 2012, p7ff:
"I then got chatting to an elder male...  He explained they are not actually the Noongar people, but Bibbulmun people.  Noongar means man and Yorga means woman.  Apparently the white man... asked the men who they were, they answered noongar, meaning men.  And the name stuck."
===== Of Rottnest =====
About 3-5000 years ago, before the Swan River existed, the Whadjuk people would walk to Rottnest in due season, stopping at a freshwater spring now located offshore from Trigg.  Then the sea levels rose, and sometime later an earthquake opened the northern end of Lake Yealering, or more probably the west end of Noonalling Lake which was fed from Lake Yealering, allowing the flow of excess water down what is now the Avon River.  This encouraged the Rainbow Serpents (yes, plural) to take residence in what had previously been a fairly arid part of the world.  The waters of the Avon river augmented the Canning River, and opened Blackwall Reach.  203.161.102.82 (talk) 09:25, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  men, women, and Rottnest 

message: About 3-5000 years ago, before the Swan River existed, the Whadjuk people would walk to Rottnest in due season, stopping at a freshwater spring now located offshore from Trigg.  Then the sea levels rose, and sometime later an earthquake opened the northern end of Lake Yealering, or more probably the west end of Noonalling Lake which was fed from Lake Yealering, allowing the flow of excess water down what is now the Avon River.  This encouraged the Rainbow Serpents (yes, plural) to take residence in what had previously been a fairly arid part of the world.  The waters of the Avon river augmented the Canning River, and opened Blackwall Reach.  203.161.102.82 (talk) 09:25, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Of Rottnest 

message: The article states that prisoners on Rottnest were sent there for "offences ranging from spearing livestock, burning the bush or digging vegetables".  Yet if you follow the links to the old Sunday Times archives, you'll see that in the articles condemning the conditions of the prison, the description of some individual prisoners as rapists, murderers etc.  It is misleading to imply that prisoners were only sent to Rottnest for trivial offences.  Whilst conditions were appalling (by today's standards), at least some of the prisoners were hardened criminals.  One of the prisoners in the 1890s apparently used to murder aboriginal women by breaking their necks.  A more accurate description would be for "offences ranging from spearing livestock, burning the bush and digging vegetables to murder."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.161.78.193 (talk) 05:05, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Information on the Rottnest Island Prison Misleading 

message: (removed from text)
Other Australian Aboriginal groups
* Anangu, in northern South Australia, and neighbouring parts of Western Australia and Northern Territory
* Koori, in New South Wales and Victoria
* Murri, in southern Queensland
* Nunga, in southern South Australia
* Palawah, in Tasmania.
Insufficient qualification as to why this list should be a subset of the see also - requires more than simply inclusion, unless argued otherwise JarrahTree 06:24, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''subset of see also'' 

message: :
To a comment by Nishidani above, I've added the three proposed sources Giblett-2013, Entwisle-2014, ABOM-2016 using WorldCat to augment the references more fully. Also added the sfn's as suggested; note, these have been augmented with direct-to-section links using the |loc= param, which permits more apt refs per season bullet. (Note: ABOM-2016 is the one you identified as IWK-2016 w/o author; but WorldCat lists an institutional author, and author-linked it to the WP article.) Mathglot (talk) 05:54, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Somewhat arbitrary break: sources 

message: This subsection concerns the reliability of the website noongar.org.au. This website is maintained by the South West Aboriginal Land & Sea Council, an "organisation that represents the Noongar people"  
This section is, in part, a response to Mitch's "what's wrong with it" comment, here.
This website can be presumed non-independent for matters concerning the Noongar people, because they are  (see second bullet above).
Because of their non-independence, in addressing whether noongar.org.au is a reliable source or not, it . For matters of opinion concerning what the Noongar people believe, they can be considered reliable, in my opinion.  This would mean that WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV applies, and assertions sourced to this website, require ; that is, double-quotes, and the naming of a source in the running text.  For example, you could say:
But since they are not independent, you could not state this in Wikipedia's voice. That is, the following would not be acceptable in the article:
Thus, in my opinion, SWAL&SC website is reliable for Noongar belief, and is not reliable for scientific pursuits such as genetics, archaeology, paleontology, anthropology, and so on, since they don't claim to be, and are not, reliable in any of those fields, and because the website is self-published by a non-independent, organisation that can be assumed to have an organisational bias about issues concerning the Noongar people.  Mathglot (talk) Mathglot (talk) 22:34, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Southwest Aboriginal council – noongar.org.au  

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Noongar (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 14:34, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Noongar (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 13:17, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: There is a citation needed for the post on zamia palm leading to contraception.  I have seen this was linked to fasting by a boya or birthing stone, and the fact that wedjalas destroyed the birthing stone at Gooninup.  Has anyone got a reference?
Regards, EaChanan (talk) 05:52, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zamia Palm and contraception 

message: Their dry period did not last for 11 months.  The quote by Nayton is not relevant here.  I propose it be edited out.  EaChanan (talk) 06:02, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The Noongar are a modern aggregation of over a dozen tribes widely spread over an area that had distinct seasonal variations. So the general description is not going to reflect the historic distinctions: the Nyunga did not experience the same seasonal transitions  as the Pindjarup or the Balardong living to the northeast of their territory.  The Minang had a totally different nomenclature for the six seasons, for example,but you can't state these thikngs here,m because the article is under 'surveillance' for politically correct 'harmony' among all the descendants gathered under the umbrella of a Noongar identity. Pity. It would be far more fascinating if it tolerated the known historical diversity that the whites wiped out.Nishidani (talk) 08:08, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Error in the Description of Noongar seasons.

message: With  we seem to have resolved two of the three items contested in . Perhaps we can improve on the third: 
)
I still think that inserting the Noongar name and meaning here disrupts the flow of the text and does not add information that is relevant in this context. The (linked) Rottnest Island article includes the Noongar name (and meaning, and pre-Colonial history), which is the appropriate place to put it. Perhaps it is possible to include the information in the text flow in some way that is contextually relevant to the reader, but I can't think of any. 
Here's a couple of purely made-up examples to illustrate: 
* ... Aboriginal prisoners were sent to Rottnest Island. They were particularly afraid of this - they knew the island as Wadjemup or "place across the water", i.e. isolated from their home by impassible water.
* ... Aboriginal prisoners were sent to Rottnest Island. They were particularly afraid of this - they knew the island as Wadjemup or "place across the water where the spirits are" [copied from Rottnest Island, , but perhaps ] and thought the spirits would not let them return.
An alternative would simply be to move the existing text into a footnote, which fixes the disruption to text flow. But even in a footnote, that text alone means nothing to the reader. I'd rather see some text that explains to the reader why the name is relevant here, specifically. Mitch Ames (talk) 07:46, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rottnest (Wadjemup, meaning...) 

message: Birdsall 1987 p.1. refers to no text in the bibliography. If it cannot be retrieved (no doubt someone in the relentlessly bad editing characteristic of this page has removed it) it goes out. Nishidani (talk) 23:19, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It was apparently added to the article in this edit, as a "citation" with no "source" definition. Mitch Ames (talk) 23:56, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birdsall 

message: , re  ... As it states in his article, although Mark Parton has Noongar heritage, he "[does] not identify as Aboriginal".
Consequently we ought not include him in Aboriginal/Noongar categories, lists etc. Please discuss, rather than simply re-adding him, if you disagree. Mitch Ames (talk) 23:35, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @MitchAmes Oh I understand. I will promptly remove him from the category. Amborille (talk) 13:19, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mark Parton