Talk:Drum and bass/Archive1

message: I had a whole speech, but here's a thought: I think we need to repost the part of the article that discusses drum and bass' birth from gabba, which I discovered at this page two years ago. Second, I think it's too long, too little information, the discussion page is pretty much people rapping about jungle vs. drum and bass, which isn't important. Pick one, my vote drum and bass, and then if someone hears of jungle they go to the disambiguation page, they click on the jungle part of the article at the drum and bass article, they read, and decide if they want to read more. 
Also, the stuff you're recommending as artists is pretty weak. Roni Size, Goldie, Aphrodite, DJ Dara, AK1200, Dieselboy, and then a few others you mentioned are pretty good, Bukem and so on. Also, I run my drums for dnb in halftime at 120 bpm, which is 240 bpm, and then everyone dances in halftime. You rap over it in half time too, though I'm not a dnb MC. Whatever happened to that?
foxgemini
69.223.52.191 02:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Some thoughts to consider

message: Also, being so long these days, this article badly needs some pictures to break up the text and make it more readable.  I will see what I can find myself, and try and persaude some event photographers I know to donate a rave shot or two, but if anybody else has anything, please bring it on :)  Stevekeiretsu 15:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pictures

message: I removed this bit about Fluke - Zion: and the most widely know drum and bass is Zion by Fluke which was featured on the matrix reloaded soundtrack, and was used in the movie, for the underground dance sequence. Anyone who has any idea as to what drum'n'bass is, will concur that Fluke - Zion has nothing to do with it. It's tempo is around 135bpm, it has a steady 4/4 bassdrum oriented beat and it matches all the characteristics of progressive house/trance but pretty much none of drum'n'bass'. --Nuancednb 11:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fluke - Zion

message: I'm not too fussed myself on whether Jungle=Drum and Bass and the like. But I would just like to say that this is one of the best Wikipedia articles that I have come across. Very intelligently written and extrordinarily well researched. After reading it I feel I have learnt a lot about a very interesting scene. --Cockers 20:12, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: impressed

message: I removed this paragraph:
:Although used to refer to the same music, the names drum and bass and jungle confer different connotations. In general, Jungle is considered simpler, sweatier, dirtier, rawer and (in terms of paying audience) more working-class than drum and bass. Drum and bass is considered more complex, sophisticated, cleaner sounding, more technical, more PC and more upper-class than jungle. But in common usage, these connotations are commonly blurred.
It seems somewhat less than NPOV, dividing the music by class. i.e. is drum and bass really "considered more complex". By whom? Perhaps earthier versus abstract would be a better distinction. In any case, it needs a rewrite. --Lexor 08:58, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: removed paragraph

message: Most jungle/dnb producers today agree that the terms are synonimous. you are right, they may confer different meanings to different people, but i think that for the purposes of wiki they should be listed as the same.
That's my opinion, i would appreciate feedback.  -- User:Themindset 22:37, September 23 2004
:That's a ridiculous statement... first off it's obviously your personal POV... and attempting to quantify a POV with statements like 'most' is very misleading. If by 'most' you mean the guys you hang out with.. maybe!? But please only supply statements that are ACTUALLY correct .
-- User:tactik (comment actually from 210.50.236.183)
To start this article with the sentence, 'drum and bass is also known as jungle' is ridiculous. It is not true. As an avid fan of both genres, and of music in general, it becomes clear when you listen to both (as they ARE different) there presents many, many differences (although, I'll agree, they are related). This MUST be corrected as people who read up on the subject are simply getting the wrong information. I will not be the one to do so since there is plenty of discussion about it and I dont want to be booted.--DragonFly31 17:57, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  JUNGLE = DRUM N BASS 

message: I removed this paragraph, it is confusing, poorly written and contradicts itself, it needs major copyediting before being inserted back into the article, also it is not clear whether it should be in the Musicology or History section, it would benefit from being more clearly split along such lines. --Lexor|Talk 14:33, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
:Drum and bass came from Jungle, a moniker alledgedly stemming from a rough area in Kingston, Jamaica originally known as Concrete Jungle. It may have been named after this area due to the harshness or roughness of the beats and rhythm. There is a common misconception that jungle came from drum and bass, however the opposite is actually true. The first Jungle was not specifically Ragga influenced, but was an offshoot of breakbeat hardcore (now often referred to as oldskool or oldskool hardcore), but with a new rhythm form, emphasising heavily cut up breakbeats and stronger emphasis on deep bass. By the mid-1990s, the term Jungle on the British scene had come to refer to Jungle influenced by the raggamuffin dance hall tradition and favouring ragga-style MCs, cut up sampled drum loops and distorted bass (rather than the melodic vocals, programmed drums and floaty synthesizer ambience common in so-called 'intelligent' drum and bass, which was the beginning of the simpler programmed (rather than cut up sample based) drum pattern that for a long time characterised the difference between Jungle and Drum and Bass). Modern 'dark' drum and bass showcases highly programmed and complex beats running between 160 and 180 BPM, with synth leads that strongly emphasize the sub-bass frequencies, and frequently make use of various cuts and breaks in order to keep the dancing audience from becoming bored and losing energy.
As the early hardcore & breakbeat had a lot in common with the drum and bass of 94-95, as opposed to the jungle of late 93-94 which had a different style. There was plenty of crossover aswell though. There is some validity in this section which was removed, but it will add even more confusion. Smartgenes (talk) 19:10, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed confusing and self-contradictory paragraph

message: From Drum and bass:
*"Drum and bass (drum n bass, DnB) is an electronic music style. Originally an offshoot of the United Kingdom breakbeat hardcore and rave scene..."
From Breakbeat hardcore:
*"Breakbeat hardcore (or rave) is a style of electronic music. It was an early 1990s offshoot of the Acid House scene of late 1980s Britain. It added a hip-hop influence with the addition of breakbeats, and increased the tempo...."
From Breakbeat:
*"Breakbeat (breakbeats or breaks), are a collection of sub-genres of electronic music, chiefly exemplified by drum and bass and jungle..."
I broke the circle by changing the link in Breakbeat hardcore to break beat. Hyacinth 01:35, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to me the breakbeat article needs work, as drum and bass doesn't exemplify the genre of breakbeat.. dnb is an offshoot genre but is now as big or bigger than breakbeat and isn't really a subgenre of breakbeat any more than trance is a subgenre of house --Frantik 16:18, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Circular definition

message: This section is not appropriate for wikipedia. This has turned into a linkfest, and it's not becoming of an encyclopedia at all... I intend to remove it soon, please discuss if you disagree with this. Themindset 19:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, this section should be removed as wikipedia is not a a mirror or a repository of links. Mushin 20:02, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, the list of drum n bass producers should probably be moved to its own artcile for the sake of the article's flow. Themindset 21:03, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed the list of links from the Purchasing section of the article. I have included this section below, either just for reference or in case it can be incorporated into a relevant page somewhere else (do not just paste this back into the article without discussing here first - there were no arguments to the original discussion, which is why the material is being removed). If no sensible use is suggested for this material then it can be deleted at a later date. Mushin 18:31, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accessing drum and bass: Purchasing section 

message: It seems before DnB was under the breakbeat category and had the breakbeat footer.. DnB isn't really a subgenre of Breaks as much as an offshoot so I made a new category and footer.  I also added the footer to all the subgenres listed on the footer -- Frantik 16:20, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: good move. i've added the template to Wikipedia:WikiProject Electronic music and have removed techstep and neurofunk from the breakbeat footer --MilkMiruku 18:42, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drum and bass category and footer 

message: Please register your opinion by starting your comment with either Merge or Don't merge. This is not a binding poll, just to get an idea of what the distribution of opinion is. Feel free to follow your vote with a concise explanation/reasoning. Pls keep arguments/disussions in the other sections of this talk page. Don't forget to sign your comments with ~~~~.
* Merge with Jungle Music My idea is that you simply pick the one that covers more territory, probably drum and bass, and then put a large section about gabba and jungle in there. I like jungle better myself, and I wish to God someone was making drum and bass with some ass in it anymore, but Jungle isn't a widely known term stateside. We don't even have discoteques here in small towns. foxgemini
* Merge with Jungle music, have Jungle music redirect to DnB article and address the debate adequately there. Themindset 18:25, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge Poll - Merging [[Drum and bass]] & [[Jungle music]] articles into the [[Drum and bass]] article 

message: * Comment: to quote Wikipedia:Straw polls; "Wikipedia is not a democracy, and, in general, voting is evil (and stupid). Decisions should be made by consensus decision making rather than a strict majority rule." and "Even if a large number of people vote for one option but some don't, this doesn't mean that that's the "outcome". It means some people are disagreeing, and that has to be addressed.". there's already a on-going debate above re the merge which has still not reached a conclusion, and there are only 4 people actively discussing this atm so the results of a poll wouldn't really have any form of validity even if you were just to class it as an informal survey. this is an issue that should and imo can be resolved using consensus and verifiable sources. is it time to look to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution for help? --MilkMiruku 12:46, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Objection to Merge Poll

message: I just noticed there is no ragga subgenre.. thats a pretty big omission!   there is a ragga page but it is doesn't describe ragga jungle really.  i think a lot of what has been added to the jungle music page recently could be put on a ragga page.   If anybody is interested in starting one, go for it.. if not, i'll go ahead and do it when i get a chance
--Frantik 09:21, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  need for ragga sub genre 

message: I'm interested in how many of the people who have written this article were actually around in London and the surrounding counties, plus up north when Jungle kicked off? 
And who said Jungle doesn't need its own page? Jungle is not part of Drum n Bass history, it isn't like Hardstep or Jump Up, it was a bloody sub culture limited to the UK, if anything Drum n Bass is a sub genre of Drum n Bass, but I would say it was an evolution. It was the first musical invention of the UK urban multicultural music scene. I am reopening the case for Jungle to have a seperate listing, as I have buckets of information that would be as large as the Drum n Bass section. 
The Drum n Bass article needs some serious work, it has so many spelling and grammatical errors that it's making Junglists look stupid.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.10.38.226 (talk • contribs) .
:LOL... so the poor quality of the drum and bass page is making junglists look bad... but drum and bass and jungle aren't the same thing?
:--Frantik 02:52, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  WHO ARE ALL YOU PEOPLE??? 

message: It can easily be compared to 'any drum and bass'.. I bet it contains cut up funk breaks over a loud bassline and is between 150-180 bmp, just like a billion other drum and bass tunes.
No one has yet been able to post even one thing that makes a tune jungle but not drum and bass.. and since there is nothing objective that differentiates them, there is no reason to have two encyclopedia pages on the same topic. --Frankyferta nob 02:41, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jungle was a subcultural movement, DnB was it's little brother 

message: here's some reference pages for info.. Some of these might even be suitable for linking on the main page --Frantik 20:16, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  some references to cull from.. 

message: I believed Dj Hypes show on Kiss 100 every wednesday was just as notable as Fabio/Grooveriders on Radio 1 and therefore added it. Feel free to change the wording but i believe it should stay. Djm101 13:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edited Media Section

message: Jungle music is tends to use higher frequencies than Drum and Bass does. You will also notice with Jungle music that it tends also to be a lightly slower bpm than Drum and Bass.
Drum and Bass, as the name suggests, consists mainly of a fast and heavy drum line (usually around 155 to 170) and a low churning bassline with different sound effects and vocals added for effect. Jungle music predominantly uses the drum line as the main listening point, usually with slightly quieter bass line. 
Drum and Bass generally tends to be 'Darker' than Jungle.
These two styles are very similar when explained, but have a totally different and distinguishable sound.
Drum and Bass is NOT Jungle.
Jimbobsthebest 16:59, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jungle is NOT Drum and Bass 

message: 1. "primarily Belgium, Holland and Germany - beyond 1992, but the general scenes in these countries had shifted over to trance, house, industrial techno or gabba (or happy hardcore / hard house, in UK terms)."
: What does "or happy hardcore / hard house, in UK terms" mean exactly? They are all different things. 
(The writer of the aforesaid sentence, here) - sorry, not clear - I meant the translation from the end of the 'Belgian' sound into the scenes which follwed it, with direct influence - does that make sense? I think it's pretty clear that in the UK, the Belgian sound later translated into the Trade / hard house sound, and also the happy hardcore scene, additionally with a big influence on d&b. Of course these scenes are seperate, but all trace directly back to Belgian Techno. Does that make a bit more sense?
2. "Whilst it has been suggested that it was the dancehall-aware black youth of Britain who fueled the drum and bass scene in the early days, this is not entirely true as there was substantial white following in northern British cities."
: That is not entirely true either with regards to "substantial white following in northern British cities". There was indeed some culture thing regarding Scotland and this music. I'm surprised it hadn't already been mentioned on here as it was a big talking point up here during the 1990s. You'll find this drum & bass/jungle was little played at raves here as it would not draw and out of touch with the crowds/music here. Here's an article from Eterntity magazine for a standard 18,000 Scottish rave in Edinburgh 1995 for you to read. Eternity image It's worth pointing something like this out as will only improve the accuracy and history of this article even further. Also check the Scottish techno overview and beginnings. 
3. "Some hardcore tracks at the time were extremely light and upbeat; the most extreme example of this were the so called "toy-town" tracks such as Smart E's' Sesame's Treat which features the children's show Sesame Street theme song. This style of hardcore would many years later be known as happy hardcore."
: The Prodigy - Your Love or Altern 8 - Activ 8 is more of happy hardcore's origins than Sesame's Treet ever was. All the other things like breakbeat and darkcore on this article are greatly expanded with several song examples and put in a positive light. Needs more work on that bit as it reads like all happycore songs have kids TV tunes in them.
Thanks. --Revolt 10:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Re: #3, I wrote that part.  I didn't mean to imply that all happy hardcore was in that style, just to indicate that happy hardcore and drum and bass share common roots.  Feel free to edit it as you see fit :) --Frantik 04:10, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Three queries on this article 

message: "How can we possibly prove that drum and bass was invented in the 1990s? Drum and Bass has existed for thousands of years in India, including low tuned and high-tuned tabla drums," says one point of view. But some also say that it was invented by Djs speeding up James Brown beats. I will give that jungle techno is NOT drum n' bass. So we can never tell for sure who invented it. -user: Crisspy
Rubbish.
There is no clear line of ancestry or evolution between the music you are referring to and modern ELECTRONIC drum & bass. Drum & bass is either jungle in a modern form OR the descendant/evolution of jungle. It is NOT a modern form of the music you are referring to (bhangra perhaps is) though there may be some crossover and influence. You might as well state that gangster rap evolved in India.
It also incredibly arrogant to be trying to find a root of a modern electronic music style in music that appeared a thousand years ago in a specific place. Nationalistic I would even say. Broken beats and bass sounds have functioned in every human culture, they are the invention of a specific nation, race or culture. 
Having said that, dnb/jungle as a specific form of modern electronic music is the result of amalgamation of hiphop (therefore funk), rave, electronic music, ragga and dancehall in the UK - the birthplace of dnb/jungle. 
Yes, it did appear as a result of hiphop being played double time.
Yes we can tell who invented jungle/dnb, all the djs listed in the article and some others, working together, creating this innovative style of  music. There is no one creator but a collective.
What is jungle techno supposed to be, btw? And give me the clear definition of why jungle is not dnb.
I have never ever found a definition of the difference between jungle and dnb, one that would a track to be clearly labelled as one type of 170 bpm broken beat, bassline music - apart from a chronological definition.
--Dustek 15:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Drum and Bass is from India

message: Hope it helps. BenXO 20:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I Added some info on d&b distributors, as well as a little tidying of grammar and spelling... 

message: The sites listed at the end of the article refer to the junglist community, a key part of the dnb phenomenon (especially Dogsonacid.com) and/or provide examples of dnb music = dnb radio.
I am pretty certain the distributor list will be deleted and removed - but I will not do so. --Dustek 14:51, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed spam warning 

message: Might I suggest that in the "Importance of drum and bassline elements" section, we compile a list of the major breaks used (much as some various bass elements have been mentioned)? I mean, we all obviously know the Amen, Apache, etc... but then wouldn't it be fair to mention Lynn Collins, etc etc etc... seems like it could very easily get too long to be mentioned in a normal paragraph and frankly, kind of deserves a proper listing... any thoughts?
--AlexandertheP 17:21, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In an old version of this article, I actually had a list of (if I remember correctly) Amen, Think, Jungle Drummer, Cold Sweat, Apache, Tighten Up, Tramen, and maybe a few others... Someone took it out.  I didnt put it back in because I generally can't be bothered with in-out-in-out mine-yours-mine-your edit wars at all, I just thought, fine, if someone wants it out, leave it out. I would be inclined to agree that a short list is worthwhile, but it is difficult where to draw the line.  Stevekeiretsu 20:17, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, found it - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Drum_and_bass&oldid=28921903 - my list above from memory was correct except I didn't include funky drummer (which is what I meant by jungle drummer... brain fart, doh) and I did include the assembly line. Stevekeiretsu 20:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of breaks list? 

message: One of the earliest (if not THE earliest) drum'n'bass rolls (loops?) can be found in the beginning of "On the Silent Wings of Freedom" by Yes from their 1978 album Tormato. --Minder 22:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia