Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 40

message: I feel so sad to hear the news, never thought I would. I have never really liked him, I always compared the way his pronounced words, his lips/jaw movement, his singing, his fierce face with Domingo. Domingo is so much opposite than him – reasons why I adore Domingo more than others.  But when I heard the news this morning, it is just strikes me hard that we have just lost someone so great in our times. Opera has just lost one of the greatest tenors. I like to ask for your moment to pray for him and may he rest in peace, Amen. -  Jay 05:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, indeed, one of the great instruments, one of the most beautiful. I must have heard him half a dozen times at least. Something particularly melancoly and personal about the deaths of singers. But the voice lives on - and in his case was well recorded. If only we had similar, complete performances by Jean de Reszke or Caruso! -- Kleinzach 23:09, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I had started watching the EMI Don Carlo DVD featuring him just a day before he died, after hearing about his illness. Very sad day... Lethe 17:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pavarotti, may he rest in peace

message: I would really like to create a temnplate like the one found here on Rossini's opera. Can someone help?
Thank you Mrlopez2681 01:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. How can we help? Actually I've just seen that you are an expert on uploading and documenting free, (non-fair use) images to WP. Perhaps you can help us? That would be great. -- Kleinzach 03:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Lopez, I have replied your msg to my talkpage - Jay 05:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help with templates 

message: This article, unusually, comes with a "Fair use rationale":  "This article is an exact copy of information provided by Ms. Ringo's artistic agent, Michel Glotz, on her website . . . ."  Is this OK on WP? The contributor Mike hayes has done plenty of other articles here. -- Kleinzach 23:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, had to delete that: you can't do this. We don't accept restrictions of this type when copyright is waived: you simply have to license everything into the public domain. Our exceptions to this rule just don't cover a whole article. Moreschi  Talk 20:09, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Jennifer Ringo]]

message: Hi folks, I have put the Dmitri Shostakovich page up for FAR. One particular   problem of potential interest here is is the musical and aesthetic context provided for Lady Macbeth. Given the importance of the opera to the genre in the 20th Century, as well as the composer's own fate, review and comment would be particularly welcome. Eusebeus 15:57, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: FAR of Dmitri Shostakovich

message: :see Archive 37 for the immediately preceding archived PROD section
Do not comment on these articles here; rather discuss on the talk page for the article nominated for deletion. If you agree with the proposed deletion, you don't have to do anything. If you think the article merits keeping, the remove the  template and make an effort to improve the article so that it clearly meets the notability and verifiability criteria.
* 12 September 2007 - expires 17 September
** McHenry Boatwright (PROD by User:Stormbay; "McHenry Boatwright 's life most probably inspired Richard Powers' The Time of Our Singing.") --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed deletions ([[WP:PROD]]) 

message: The article has received a notability tag. It is quite likely he is a notable individual, but the article's wording and lack of source make that difficult to assert. Adding sources that establish his status as a major prompter or opera personality would greatly help. I found this and this, but most likely this project's participants know just where to look to find the good stuff. Circeus 03:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can a prompter (or a stage manager or any other invisible technician) be notable? I placed the tag to question this. If Eisenberg has received prominent public recognition (awards etc.) it might be that he is notable. On the other hand he may only be known locally - in the San Francisco opera world. -- Kleinzach 04:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've put this up for deletion. Please contest this if you can demonstrate notability. -- Kleinzach 23:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is now at Afd here. -- Kleinzach 03:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Philip Eisenberg]] 

message: New opera articles are appearing every day. Care of Alex, they can be seen at User:AlexNewArtBot/OperaSearchResult
I've been trying to check them every day, but it's been taking up more and more of my time and I'd be grateful for some help. What this entails is:
*1. Checking that bona fide articles have the opera project banner. This is important because it enables the bot to find the articles when compiling the the To do list and the Small to-do list etc.
*2. Checking that the articles are categorized - often they are not. (Depending on the articles I usually either put an  tag on them or put at least one category.)
*3. Checking that the article is worthwhile etc. If the article appears to be self-promotion (student opera singers etc.), it may be necessary to put a  (or similar) tag on it.
I wonder whether anybody would be willing to take on one (or more?) of these chores? Thanks.
-- Kleinzach 00:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've put User:AlexNewArtBot/OperaSearchResult on my watchlist, and am quite happy to monitor it for the time-being and to do 1-3 as necessary.  In checking the current list I found some problematic stuff on Maria Caniglia and Piotr Beczala (see below). Best, Voceditenore 15:19, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Much appreciated! There are about three or four, sometimes half a dozen, new articles a day and most of them have some problem or other. What I have tried to do is mark them up - with the necessary tags, most of which are here - so other people will take them up and they won't fall off the radar. Obviously it's ideal if the creator cleans them up and in many cases this does happen. Usually it's not worth trying to do it yourself and I've only drawn attention to the articles here in special cases (e.g. Jennifer Ringo in Archive 40). -- Kleinzach 23:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New opera article checking: Help!

message: In the Caniglia article, a biography by Erik Eriksson from the All Music Guide is listed as a 'reference' via . The problem is that the Wikipedia article consists almost enirely of large chunks of the All Music Guide article reproduced verbatim. The same is true of the Beczala - verbatim chunks from the 'reference' listed . Both articles were created by User:NewYork1956. I haven't got the time/energy to re-write them. I'm tempted to just revert them to stubs. Is that OK? Best, Voceditenore 15:19, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: User:NewYork1956 could be producing a lot more of these. I'd be inclined to put a  tag on the articles and ideally contact him if you have a moment. If he doesn't rewrite them then perhaps it's better to get them deleted - though Caniglia, in particular, is obviously major. -- Kleinzach 23:48, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "User:NewYork1956 could be producing a lot more of these." No, I checked via this. These seem to be the only ones. Since they're fairly recent, perhaps he's intending to return to them for a re-write. In any case, I've now put a  tag on both. Voceditenore 11:34, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Maria Caniglia]] and [[Piotr Beczala]]- Copy Vio?

message: I was doing some checking on "arias category" when I noticed an orphaned article (Il dolce suono... Ardon gl'incensi... Spargi d'amaro pianto) which is also redundant with Il dolce suono. The contents in the orphaned article have neither citation nor reference; doesn’t look like aria or synopsis; it is more to personal opinion for the Act 3, Donizetti's "Lucia di Lammermoor". It was categorized as “Aria” before i removed it. My problem is, I find it very hard to request for the orphaned article to be deleted. May I know what shall I do or.. perhaps I just close my eyes and leave it be? Some of the contents can be used in Act 3 synopsis (may be and may be not). Any opinion? I have already adding it in   AFD page .- Jay 03:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am not familiar with the deletion/consensus policy in AFD, hopefully if someone could give me some briefing.  Say that, all of us here agree for the article to be merged with Lucia di Lammermoor and soon to be deleted, who will perform the task, the admin or any of us? Secondly, how long do we have to wait to do the merging, is there a period for us to wait like a week or 2? And lastly, after someone has “manually” transfers (merged) the valuable contents to Lucia di Lammermoor, do we have to “again”, request for the page to be deleted? - Jay 08:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion says that debate may last up to five days, after which the deletion process will begin.  There's a pretty clear consensus about this article already, so it may disappear quite soon.  On the other hand, there may be a backlog of articles going through the process (which is handled by an admin).  I'd suggest replicating any valuable content wherever it fits as soon as possible, while leaving the AFD article as is. --GuillaumeTell 10:28, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Need opinion and help

message: There is no article for this composer, and I had never heard of him before, but he wrote an operetta called  Le Droit d'aînesse (librettists Leterrier & Vanloo) that was a flop in Paris in 1883 but did well in the English-speaking world in a version by H. B. Farnie under the name Falka, playing in London in 1883 and then in America and Australia, as well as revivals at least into the 1890s.  Sheet music for the "Falka Waltz" was published. and there is information about the English version [here. Does the composer deserve an article?  Does anyone know of anything else that he wrote?  Best regards, -- Ssilvers 20:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you do a search under Francis Chassaigne (interestingly, the first name he's most often called by in France and Italy), you find a bit more. I found him mentioned as the composer of the following other opérette: Jeanne la sabotière, Les noces improvisées, Actéon et le centaure (sometimes just called Actéon) There is also a mention of him and a small photo in the memoirs of a late 19th century French chanteur, Paulus. The only other biographical info I found online was that he died in 1922. There seems to have been an article about him in Issue N° 101 of Opérette  You might be able to find more in French reference books. Best, Voceditenore 07:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Francois Chassaigne (b. circa 1850)

message: At Kleinzach's request, there is now an English-language article: Wagner family tree. I gather quite a few people are working on Wagner family members and thought you might appreciate the link! Cheers, Cricketgirl 23:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Much appreciated. -- Kleinzach 23:12, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wagner family tree 

message: From 17 September until today, I have to monitor Plácido Domingo article almost every hour (except my bedtime).  IP users from various locations keep changing his birth date from 1941 to 1934 and also other things. 2 days ago, I received reply letter from the office of Plácido Domingo in Germany asking which photos in his official website that I want, so then they could give WIKI the written permission to publish it. I replied the mail yesterday asking for 11 photos including few of his album covers for his discography.  I also given them links to Domingo’s article and List of recordings by Plácido Domingo for them to check and verify whether the contents are correct. What worries me so much if they (Domingo’s staff) visited the article when this vandalism happened and I was not there to undo it back.  Can anybody here lock the article from IP users at least for a week or...  forever? - Jay 07:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Jay, I just added three more references for the 1941 birth date, Encyclopedia Britannica,  Concise Grove Dictionary of Music, and The Encyclopedia of World Biography. Note that some of the birth date edits are not necessarily in bad faith. Unfortunately, the 2nd edition of Rosenthal, H. and Warrack, J. (1979) The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Opera, Oxford University Press. p. 137 erroneously lists his birthdate as January 12, 1934. This error may have been perpetuated in other sources as well, although obviously not in Grove. On a general note, I looked at the references given in the Wikipedia article and notice that the vast majority come from Domingo's web site.  I think it would give the article greater credibility and possibly help prevent vandalism, if other, more independent. references were also cited. I can supply some sources for you if you need them. Best, Voceditenore 09:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Further note: Unfortunately, in all the edit warring that seems to have gone on, some useful footnotes disappeared, e.g. This [the 1934 birthdate] was shown by the author Daniel Snowman to be an erroneous assumption on obtaining Domingo's birth certificate from the Madrid authorities. Here are the references for that: Snowman, Daniel, The World of Placido Domingo, McGraw-Hill, 1985 ISBN: 0070595275 and Matheopoulos, Helena, Plácido Domingo - My Operatic Roles,  Little Brown, 2000, ISBN: 0316643769. Best, Voceditenore 09:47, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That Concise Oxford has been superseded by Warrack, J. and West, E. The Oxford Dictionary of Opera (1992) where the correct 1941 date is given. I've added this to Voceditenore's list in the note. --GuillaumeTell 11:02, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, please. Can we get the admin to lock it now! - Jay 15:17, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

text: OK, it has been locked. Now I can go to bed! - Jay 15:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now these ppl moved to :ms:Plácido Domingo, and other languages too! - Jay 09:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism - Plácido Domingo

message: I have marked the article Laura Belli as having content that is a copyright violation.  Information on the matter is found on the article page.  The article has also been listed at Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2007 September 28/Articles. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 22:34, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Laura Belli]]: Copyvio 

message: This article is really a tangle and I think needs serious work to sort it out. Info is scattered all over and the article does not read in an orderly 'encyclopaedic' manner. also it is thin on the ground in many important aspects. Examples: not enough on the origins of GO, the section on French grand opera needs fleshing out, there is nothing on the Wagnerian critique of grand opera, etc. I would welcome the opinions of  WP:Opera participants as I would like to undertake a (gradual) rewrite with colleagues' cooperation. Smerus 09:35, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Go ahead. I'm really not an expert on Grand Opera but I have a few sources and I know a little bit about what came immediately before. --Folantin 13:17, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, the article doesnt cite any references or sources at all - Jay 15:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text: The intro starts with Grand Opera is a genre of opera generally in five acts. But to my knowledge and also if you goggle around, all operas with more than 3 acts are considered “Grand Opera”, not necessarily have to be in 5 acts. So, instead of saying generally in 5, can we change it to "4". Correct me if I’m wrong - Jay 15:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed - I have changed to 'four or five'. Also have added template listing the Grand Operas 'proper' of 1828-1850.Smerus 18:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *. I'm cool about changing to lower case - opinions please? (also a signature for the previous comment?) :-}Smerus 13:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. I'm also cool about my comment being split. You can copy my signature over if you like!:-} -- Kleinzach 13:49, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Hasn't been deleted - removed to List of performances of French Grand Operas at the Paris Opéra and signposted as such in article. will also add it to 'see also' at foot of article.Smerus 11:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right. I've bannered it. The composers will need wikifying. -- Kleinzach 11:53, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To me Aida is a grand opera and among the best of Verdi’s. Why not it be included in the Grand Operas of the 1850s and 1860s - change it to 1875 perhaps? It is also listed in the top 20, compared to the “confused” Don Carlos. I believe Aida receives more demand until today compared to Don Carlos based on the arias, interesting set (esp at The Met), storyline and more lively! - This is just my personal opinion.  - Jay 12:51, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is given a full mention in the article, under 'Italy' Smerus 13:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Grand Opera]]

message: In my daily monitoring of the  new opera articles bot I've found the following which I'm considering putting on Articles for deletion...
*Pot-Pourri (group): Non notable, reads like an advertisement, no references. All the web references to them that I could find were basically their own advertising. Have I missed something?
*Sarah Kraus: Alas, another fledgling opera singer who does not have a notable career, but is obviously hoping that a Wikipedia article will help. The references and 'achievements' are all for student productions and concerts. Has not won any major music competitions.  Has not sung (even a small role) in any major opera house or with any major orchestra.  Her one recording listed is of a live Manhattan School of Music performance in NYC of Thomas Pasatieri's The Seagull. She had an extremely small role, Paulina. The actual performance was reviewed in both the  New York Times and New York Magazine. She wasn't even mentioned. This is her Google search (minus listings of the Seagull cd in online record shops). Comments? 
Best, Voceditenore 13:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I agree with putting them up for deletion. The onus is on the creators of the articles to respond if they want to save the articles. -- Kleinzach 11:28, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-Notables for deletion?