Talk:Terms for Syriac Christians

message: One point that most people seem to ignore is that the "Syriac" Christians of the near east may well not be members of the same ethnic group, but rather closely related ethnic groups.
Generally, it is accepted that "Syriac Christians" are SEMITIC, PRE ARAB and PRE ISLAMIC indigenies of what are now Iraq, Syria, Lebanon,  South and south east Turkey and northwestern Iran. I cant imagine people have much dispute about this point surely?
Accepting the above to be the case, it then comes down to who these people are.
It is entirely natural and logical that people who are clearly of Pre Arab and Pre Islamic populations in these regions identify with the pre Arab and pre Islamic past of these regions.
I suggest that these peoples are RELATED BUT NOT EXACTLY THE SAME PEOPLE.
MESOPOTAMIA -ASSYRIANS, an area roughly encompassing modern Iraq, a section of north eastern Syria and south eastern Turkey.
The natives of this area were Sumerians and Akkadians, later infused with Amorites. The Sumerians seem to have been absorbed into the Akkadian population. After this came Arameans, who also intermixed with the native Akkadian population.
By the late 6th Century BC Mesopotamian independence was over. HOWEVER, the native Mesopotamians were very clearly NOT wiped out or removed. There is no impirical historical evidence whatsoever to suggest this, let alone proof. In fact both Assyria and Babylon existed as provinces until the 7th Century AD.
Essentially,  people who were extant at the close of the 6th century BC were still extant at the time of the Arab Islamic conquest. These people were indigenous Mesopotamians to all intents and purposes. Those that rejected the process of Arabization and Islamification of the region are what we call the modern Assyrians, or if you like Chaldo-Assyrians or even Chaldeans (though the latter was originally a purely theological term).
Certainly, they are not PURE anything, in the same way no people are ethnically pure. But they ARE the last in the line of the family tree of pre Arab Mesopotamia, and as a result have every right to call themselves Assyrians, because they are indeed Mesopotamians. The "Burden of Proof" must in fairness be on those denying Assyrian/Mesopotamian ancestry, and as yet there is no proof that the populace was destroyed or removed.
SYRIA -ARAMEANS - Essentially modern Syria and south central Turkey. The north east of the country seems to have been Mesopotamia, the rest was essentially Aram in Pre Hellenic times. The populace was predominantly but not exclusively Aramean. There were a number of Neo Hittite groups, and later, Pre Islamic Arabs in the region. Those people who rejected Arabisation and Islamification in this region have every right to A) Regard themselves as Aramean and B) Refuse to identify as Assyrians or Mesopotamians, as they are not from Mesopotamia.
The term "Syriac" is a little more complicated, because like it or not, MAINSTREAM opinion among scholars does support the view that this term is a Hellenic/Greek corruption of the term "Assyrian". The area known as Syria was not known as such at all before the Greek Conquests, and it was not known as such by its people.
LEBANON -PHOENICIANS - Pretty much the same as the above two. The area of Lebanon and the Meditteranean coast of Syria was home to the Canaanite/Phoenician Civilisation. Those who existed before the Arab-Islamic conquest will naturally identify with the Pre Arab- Pre Islamic history and people of the region. Of Course Greeks and Romans as well as Arameans settled there also, but as I said, no one is pure anything.
I think the above makes perfect sense and is entirely logical. In addition it could help resolve this ridiculous situation where some Assyrianists and Arameanists claim that every Semitic Christian in the near east is an Assyrian or Aramean.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.106.116.120 (talk) 00:26, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Assyrians and Syriacs/Arameans May Actually NOT Be The Same people

message: Shouldn't this article be called Syriac naming dispute? After all, they don't agree on the Assyrian part, but all agree on the Syriac, or Syrian name. Funkynusayri 17:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Amen! I thought I was the only one who opposed EliasAlucard zeal to Assyrianise everything Syriac, based on a few sources, and a Google count, which apparently has become the WP method to settle naming disputes. Suryāye is the only common denominator, and should be used in all articles concerning the Syriac people. Assyrian can only refer to Church of the East members, and those who explicitly refer to themselves as such. --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 18:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither do I, everyone should be entitled to call themselves the way they want. But some nationalists try to impose their own idea of ethnicity upon others. Despite Google counts (which are heavily influenced by WP itself, and its forks), it is a fact that there is disagreement on this matter. --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 19:54, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Shouldn't this article be called Syriac naming dispute? After all, they don't agree on the Assyrian part, but all agree on the Syriac, or Syrian name. — None of us dispute that we are Suraya/Suroyo. What we dispute is our origin and usage of our ethnic name. The Assyrian faction (which is definitely the largest one since we exist in large numbers in all of our churches), is of the opinion that Suraya/Suryoyo comes from Assurayu. A lot of historical evidence exists for this, and it is supported by Assyriologists and other academics, as well as some of our patriarchs. The Aramaean faction, says it means Aramaean. Obviously, it doesn't, but there are a few historical references (not many, but a few exist) that connect Syrian to Aramaean. It could just as well be so that the Arabs in Syria are more Aramaeans than those in the Syriac Orthodox Church. The truth is, there were no Aramaean movement before the 1950s and they all snapped up on Aramaeanism after John Joseph published his fringe theories in the 1960s. Before that, none of us identified as Aramaeans. Joseph's theories however, are loosely collected from a few references of vague clarity. The reason why not everyone agrees on Assyrian is largely due to ignorance (mostly from Chaldean Catholics who have been inculcated with lies and don't understand that Suraya means Assurayu). Assyrian can only refer to Church of the East members, and those who explicitly refer to themselves as such. — This is not true. Like it or not Benne, but there is a very strong Assyrian movement in the Syriac Orthodox Church (even Garzo has admitted this on his talk page). And get this: it is growing, very fast, especially here in Sweden. The more members from the Syrian Orthodox Church begin to question things, and read up on our history, the more they understand that they are Assyrians. The Assyrian identity is not limited to churches. That is what it is all about: we Assyrian nationalist do not believe in defining our ethnicity from our Churches' point of view. Although, it is true that the Assyrian Church of the East is entirely of an Assyrian identity, the Assyrian identity is in no way limited to that ecclesiastical body. And this dispute boils down to us being Assyrians. The Aramaeanists simply copied the Assyrian nationalist movement which began around a hundred years earlier. And let's face it Benne, while we're at it: there is no consensus whatsoever within the Syriac Orthodox Church that "Aramaean" somehow is the unquestionable ethnicity. Aramaeanists are actually very obscure and exist mostly in northern Europe, and not even here are they a majority within their own group. That must be tough Benne, I can feel your pain, dawg :) And by the way, the Maronites have no connection whatsoever to the ancient Phoenicians, they're just saying that as some sort of excuse to resist Arab nationalism. — Aššur-bāni-apli (talk · contribs) 00:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, not that I have anything against the Assyrian identity, but I believe that when the article itself discusses the dispute, it shouldn't take side by picking one of the many names out and using it in the title, when they all agree on being called Syriacs. Everything else is POV. — Problem is, Syriac is not neutral either, not any longer anyway, since Aramaeanist fanatics have hijacked it recently and more or less made it synonymous with Aramaean (or at least tried). That is the reason why Benne favours Syriac, because he thinks it means Aramaean. He's not saying so because he's neutral or anything. Neither do I, everyone should be entitled to call themselves the way they want. — While that is true, it is also true, that we have Syriacs who deliberately ignore evidence that is in opposition to their recently conjured up POV. Look man, we are not Aramaeans, none of us. I am open to the possibility that we may very well indeed have some Aramaean blood in our genetic ancestry, but that is way exaggerated by fanatics. But some nationalists try to impose their own idea of ethnicity upon others. — Oh please, that is so lame. The Assyrian faction isn't imposing anything, we are just telling it like it is. That might be difficult for some of us to hear and accept, but it certainly isn't "imposing." No nationalist is imposing anything. We are just citing sources, and the the reliable sources we have are simply in favour of Assyrian. it is a fact that there is disagreement on this matter. — Yes, and it is also a fact that your disagreement is based on ignorance. Look, this is just a simple way of naming articles of this kind. See for example Native American name controversy. What do you suggest then? Native Mesopotamian name controversy?— Aššur-bāni-apli (talk · contribs) 00:34, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Syriac isn't neutral any longer since, like I've mentioned, the pseudo-Arameans have high-jacked it. Today, those who go by Syriac are almost exclusively the Aramaeanist fanatics, while those who go by Assyrian are the rest of us. And if you understand the history behind this dispute, you'll understand that it is all about the Assyrian name. This entire conflict is about that some of us didn't like Assyrian nationalism and they went their own way and invented this Aramaeanism and now they're living in their own bubble refusing to understand their own history, simply out of a ridiculous pride. The Aramaeanist fanatics are in no way open to modern research on the subject. It doesn't matter what archaeological evidence is discovered, what Assyriologist write, and so on. They are seriously brainwashed into this Arameanist sect. You should read this by Aprim:  The Arameanist movement is from the early 1970s. — Aššur-bāni-apli (talk · contribs) 11:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Other name

message: This article is an original research written by somebody who does not understand what the paper of John Joseph says. His paper pretty much settles the dispute should someone UNDERSTAND what is says, not just refer to it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.178.224.175 (talk) 07:38, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research 

message: It seems bizarre to me that the section 'History' does not mention the fact that, between the sixth and nineteenth centuries, most Syriac Christians defined themselves by a religious rather than by a national identity.  They called themselves, and were called by others, Nestorians, Jacobites and Maronites (and later on Chaldeans and Syrian Catholics).  Nor, of course, was their 'national' identity Assyrian.  They called themselves, and were called by others, Suraye, Syrians.  All serious scholars agree that the 'Assyrian' identity was invented in the nineteenth century, and it seems pointless to read back this identity into earlier periods when there is no evidence whatsoever to support it.
Djwilms (talk) 16:48, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nestorians and Jacobites 

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thread_title: File:Chaldean Flag.svg Nominated for Deletion

message: I've merged the article, Syriac flag, here as no one has yet put forward any opposition in the years since the merger was proposed. ClaretAsh 13:40, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Syriac flag 

message: Walid Phares sees himself as Aramean and not Assyrian. You can ask him yourself.
79.182.32.38 (talk) 18:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Strange that he was speaking at the Assyrian Convention then.  Cannolis (talk) 22:48, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 26 February 2015 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Terms for Syriac Christians's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Frye":
From Neo-Assyrian Empire: 
From Seleucid Empire: Richard N. Frye, The History of Ancient Iran, (Ballantyne Ltd, 1984), 164.
From Name of Syria: Assyria and Syria: Synonyms, Richard N. Frye, PhD., Harvard University
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 06:07, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Terms for Syriac Christians]] 

message: Please someone put a comma between Jordan and Palestine it's killing me  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.187.216.93 (talk) 01:41, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 06:37, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comma 

message: The Phoenician nationalism is mostly seen among the Maronite population and not with other groups in Lebanon as this article implies. I'm not implying that every Maronite calls himself a Phoenician but it mostly comes from their group. This should be changed.
:Could you explain exactly where this article implies that? Shmayo (talk) 18:56, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you mean the "...as do most of the Lebanese population..." part? I agree with you. Shmayo (talk) 19:00, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  For the Phoenician part.... 

message: change ((Palestine)) to ((State of Palestine|Palestine)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by For 2601:541:4304:E6B0:218:8BFF:FE74:FE4F (talk • contribs) 
: Done DRAGON BOOSTER  ★ 17:07, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Palestine link 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Please remove https://web.archive.org/web/20000816221217/http://www.friesian.com/notes/note-n.htm from the list of further reading. I have pointed out before (see Special:Diff/1023305928) that friesian.com is the personal website of a former community college philosophy professor – hence not a reliable source on subjects other than philosophy – who is prone to going off on political tangents, and sometimes outright ranting, on pages that are ostensibly about history or philosophy. 67.170.60.91 (talk) 06:01, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Although this seems mildly controversial, done per WP:SPS (noting the website's home page calls itself a "non-peer-reviewed electronic journal"), and I agree that WP:EXPERTSPS does not apply in this case. External link sections should be carefully curated, anyway. Thank you. Ovinus (talk) 21:11, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Friesian.com 

message: I would like to add a part about the Aramean identity on this page. The part about the Aramean identity is very short and lacks a lot of information. An example is that the Aramean identity is mainly held also by Syriac Catholic Christians. It also not true that the Aramean identity is held by 'some adherents' of the Syriac Orthodox Church. The Aramean identity is held by most of the adherents of the Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholic Church. 93.238.93.119 (talk) 14:57, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shmayo deletes information