Talk:Operation Ostra Brama

message: Whera are some mistakes in this text:
1. Captured Home Army soldiers were forced to join the 361 regiment of Red Army, not pushed to GUŁAG.
:Source?Halibutt 12:20, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  conscripted or imprisoned? 

message: I'm beginning to think two seperate articles might be better than one. I think there are two seperate events taking place, and because of their close proximity to one another, they are erroneously commingled. As for the uprising, Operation Ostra Brama, seems the best choice for its name. As for the second event, there really doesn't seem to have been a "battle," so that name should be reconsidered as well. Piotrus, there is obviously a desire to "składać hołd" to the AK, with your desire to keep this "victory" in there (even if you have to share it with the Soviets). Is it worth it? I think we need more information about the German garrison strength, and OKW analysis of their options in this region, to help with a NPOV resolution of the matter. In the article Battle of Berlin, there are several pictures of the Polish Army's participation in the defeat of Nazi Germany, and references to their contribution. Should  "Decisive Soviet Victory, " be changed to Polish and Soviet Victory as well? Dr. Dan 01:49, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh BTW, I almost forgot, Happy May Day to all, and to all a good night! Dr. Dan 01:55, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dispute Not Resolved (yet)

message: I just checked Newton 'Retreat of Army Group North', Haupt 'Army Group North', and Ziemke 'Stalingrad to Berlin'.  All mention that by 8 July Wilna was already encircled by the Red Army.  None mention anything about a rising - which should not be read to mean that there was one, just that it maybe did not register in chaos of the days. This Polish site states that the Home Army co-operated with the Red Army and that the battle lasted from 6-7 July.
Vilnius was declared a Fester Platz in May 44 under the command of Major General Poel, and placed under the command of Lieutenant-General Stahel of the Luftwaffe on 7 or 10 July (he was flown out I believe - he was a sort of expert for Fest Plaetze).  On 18 July he received the 79th Oak Leaves and Swords awarded to the Knight's Cross for his defense of Vilna, especially the tieing down of large Soviet forces in front of it.
In conclusion I think that an article on the Battle of Vilnius (under that name) ought to be created, and that this article be merged with it.
BTW - I have come across many spellings for Vilno, but Wilno must be the most unlikely for anyone not able to speak Polish.  I see no possible justification for the use of this spelling, even after reading the above discusion. Andreas 12:02, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If the name of the article is not correct, than it should be renamed. To "Operation Ostra Brama" maybe ? And then Wilno Uprising could be turned into a disambiguation page ? --Lysytalk 17:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you refer to it by the name of the Polish operation, we'll still need an article about the whole battle, since you probably won't discuss Red Army operation much.  I'd personally go for one article called Battle of Vilnius (1944), in which Ostra Brama is a section describing the action of the Home Army, since I can not really see how these two operations can be described separately. But that's just me. Andreas 18:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

text: No, I think Lysy is right. The article is about Operation Ostra Brama, which seems to me the better name, and removes half of the above arguments. I think it should probably be changed. There is some comingling of the Polish activities and the later Soviet activities, but the article is about the Polish Home Army's activities, and one should not lose sight of that fact. I feel there is not enough information about the German side of events, and that could be improved as well. So far no one has responded to the question, if there was a popular uprising of any significance either (like in Warsaw). As for the later Soviet "Battle" (and I don't think there was one), it should be in a seperate article. The battle of the Alamo, and the battle of San Jacinto, are two related events, in the relatively same time period. Yet they are usually depicted as two seperate events, because that's what they were. Dr. Dan 13:45, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that is not a good analogy.  San Jacinto and the Alamo are removed in time and place. The only thing they have in common is Santa Ana's army.  In this case we are talking about the same place and the same time.  Remember that by 8 July Vilnius was encircled - presumably not by the Home Army but by advancing Red Army formations.  Judging from what little I could find there must have been some combat at Vilnius involving the Red Army (since Stahel did get his decoration for it). Andreas 18:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay, I struck gold (in some respect at least) in the Soviet General Staff study on Belorussia 1944, edited by David Glantz.  Lots of info on the Germans (although this is definitely not end of research, since the general staff studies are decent, but not completely reliable when it comes to the German side.  Another book where I found info is Paul Adair's 'Hitler's Greatest Defeat'. In any case, there was a major battle at Vilnius, and 5th Guards Tank Army had some serious losses there. Andreas 14:21, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: We are currently moving house.  I wisely kept the STAVKA study out of the boxes, but my wife would kill me and feed my body to bad-tempered seabass (with friggin laser-beams on their head) if I went into serious Wiki editing. Andreas 20:41, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: While I agree with adding this info to the article, the article is nowhere ready for peer review. Reviewers expect a FAable article and this is nowhere near. See talk above. --Irpen 18:58, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. First we need to agree on how to call Wilna. ;-) Andreas 20:41, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: You're correct (and I was joking about peer review), the article still needs more information about the German's activities, strength, and OKW decisions in regards to "Operation Ostra Brama," because there is virtually nothing of substance concerning these matters. The imput of this information would definitely help formulate a better article, and perhaps resolve some of the dissagreements. Dr. Dan 01:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  German accounts don't seem to know about this many-days battle 

message: The issue has become more of a mess, than before. It seems we've come full circle. The departure of the Germans from Vilnius, Wilno, Vilna was the result of many factors. This misnamed article, was originally about Operation Ostra Brama, a significant and important contribution to the end of the German occupation of the city, and that should be the focus of the article. The other related matters should be seperated into their own articles or article. Operation Ostra Brama (and it should be thus renamed), was not a Soviet Victory, as they were not part of it, did not plan it, and their subsequent advance into the city is another aspect of the German evacuation and retreat. Dr. Dan 14:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Second that. --Lysytalk 21:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Es gibt nichts gutes, ausser man tut es. ;-) Battle of Vilnius (1944) Andreas 15:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Full Circle

message: I placed the template to enable people to discuss, even though I currently oppose the proposal to merge the two articles.  Please discuss it here Talk:Battle_of_Vilnius_%281944%29. Thanks Andreas 09:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger 

message: Acording to this article the Poles didn't manage to capture Wilno and had to cooperate with the Soviets from the very begining. This is different then the story in our article, which states that the Poles did manage to liberate the city by themselves.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Polish long article about the Uprising.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:28, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While I can not read Polish, from the Soviet narrative it appears that the Polish did not manage to liberate the city themselves either. What is really needed is the German take on events. Andreas 07:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:pl:Aleksander Krzyżanowski]] 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
====Survey - Support ====
# M.K. 14:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: # M.K. 14:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - Support 

message: Regarding 
1. This is not 'adding info', this is changing, altering and whitewashing existing text with a straight up POV purpose.
2. A 1946 book entitled "Great Conspiracy: Secret War Against Russia" by a Stalinist apologist (and maybe a KGB agent) is simply NOT a reliable source. This isn't "censorship" (whenever somebody's pushing a POV with unreliable sources, this cry always goes up), it's Wikipedia policy.
3. While the article lacks inline citations (and a tag along those lines should be added), the text is sourced to the sources given in References and Further Reading.
 Volunteer Marek  18:48, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  recent changes 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:33, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: "rm unsourced / dubious". --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:13, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  July 2020 edits