Talk:Stella Matutina

message: It cannot be merged with Ordo Stella Matutina. Material about the modern Ordo Stella Matutina from that orders website can ONLY be used if the article is exclusively dedicated to it. If this article is merged into it, that autobiographical self-published material cannot be used. That's why I separated all the articles in the first place: to comply with WP:V. Your suggestion countervenes that - it cannot be done while also abiding by WP:V. -999 (Talk) 17:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please clearly specify where in WP:V it says what you are saying. thanks. Zos 17:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually you never showed me where I cannot add informtation to an aricle. Zos 17:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: No, I would like policy to say that I cannot add to an article that has existing references to its main web site as being autobiographical. Zos 18:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, I started the section called "Modern Day", and put the revival under that. The history comes before the revival, or else, what is it revived from? Zos 18:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Well I still want outside intervention. Maybe an RfC. So don't remove the tag until this is over. Zos 18:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I think I can add more information that you are allowed to add from your web site source. This is fact would be changed based on sources. This is not my intention and not my problem. Whatever happens to articles is of no issue to me, I only wish to contribute. Zos 18:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: *The Amoun Temple of the Stella Matutina in London closed down in 1920, due to problems with chief (Mrs. Stoddart), and by the mid 1920s Stella Matutina as a whole was in serious decline, which increased after the 1926 death of Felkin.[citation needed]
:I'm removing this statement because it first, needs a citation and second, because I'm adding to the statment, in part, and expanding it from a source. The statement can be placed back in, in conjunction with the rest, as soon as a citation is given. This has been done in good faith, and is standard procedure. Zos 18:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awaiting sources 

message: "and the order chessmen had never been unmounted."
What does this mean? This is an encyclopedia for general readership. Are we suppose to know what "mounted" means with respect to "order chessmen"? Mounted to what? Unmounted from what? This part of the sentence makes no sense. —Hanuman Das 21:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "and the order chessmen had never been unmounted" it means that the enochian chess set was never used. This statement was also re-added and cited. I'm kinda getting tired of people removing cited statements without challenging the source. If anything, you begin discussion of the topic first, and never remove a cited source unless you have a source to counter it. I'm going to re add this, and instead, adding it like this: "and the Orders chessset had never been unmounted". This is directly from the author, I'm only changing it because it in deed sound a bit off. Zos 21:10, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah if its challenged. Quote the page or policy to are refering to please. Zos 21:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But it's much better now that you've used words the general reader can understand, so I won't. I did add an apostrophe - Order's is possessive. —Hanuman Das 21:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Plus, the secret chief section is actually pertinent to the article. The article is about the Stella Matutina, and the information I was adding, shows how they were at that time. Whats the reason you feel its not pertinent? Zos 21:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: yeah but in removing teh secret cheifs section, and saying its policy, you fail to quote which policy, understand? so which policy are you refering to? Zos 21:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Wait. You have no comment on the fact that you stepped in and removed my additions. I see. Well, just so you know. The section you removed deals with the inner working os the order and its how it derived the teachings it used. All of the material directly talks about the Stella Matutina. So I'd like to know why you removed it, as it deals with the topic. I was in the process of expansion when it was removed because the other editor didnt feel it related, giving no real reason. Zos 21:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Uh I didnt start a revert war. The other editor, who hasnt added to this article, only corrected grammar, removed the material before discussing it. I'm not trying to win anything, and this is not preschool. I'm about to make a compromise below. Zos 22:04, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes but the proper way I was told by an admin was to discuss a cited source before removing it. Under Wikipedia:Citing sources they only mention statements that do not have citations. Mine did. I assume bad faith when editors remove first, ask questions later. Discussion first, then removal upon consensus sounds alot more logical. My intentions were to expand the article, so I reverted back to the original version until a a decision was made about what to do. I've made a compromise, so lets see if thats any better. Zos 22:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Furthermore, I exercised this myself, look at the section on this page called "Awaiting sources". I let other editors know what I was going to do, then i did it. Discussion first. Plus when I removed it to the talk page, there wasnt a citation. You dont remove cited material, which one of my statements were, just because it doesnt fit. If anything, the header might have needed to be changed, as per my compromise. Zos 22:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meaningless statement 

message: I'm removing this header I had made, as it was a bad idea. Zos 04:54, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Temples 

message: Well, I haven't quite started my wikibreak yet, so I thought I'd chime in on this. The use of degree rituals from O.T.O. doesn't seem very likely. The paragraph doesn't mention the year - that would help to determine the accuracy.
The main thing is the OTO rituals do not resemble Golden Dawn rituals. They are degrees and not grades. It was the A.'.A.'. rituals that were based on the G.D. rituals, and in the A.'.A.'. they are called grades.
Finally, the date when Felkin rewrote the rituals would help. Crowley did not join OTO until 1911 or 1912, and did not rewrite the OTO rituals until the early 1920s. What connection did Felkin have with the OTO that he would have had access to the pre-Crowley degree rituals? I think there is a mistake here, I think A.'.A.'. rituals is what is meant here. -999 (Talk) 16:25, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These werent Golden Dawn rituals. They were Stella Matutina rituals. And I cant start a header for comparisons because I dont have enough information for it to be a sub header yet. But this was before crowley rewrote them, and I have other statements to include on how the OTO and Stella Mat under Felkin links. I wouldnt need a date for the actual rituals being constructed, I doubt many even know. Its just a loose fact. And no, I havent seen anything for the AA connection, so its not AA. Zos 16:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ordo Templi Orientis 

message: I've requested unprotection for the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. Once this is unprotected, we can work on getting that material here, and leaving a brief section about the Stella Mat over there. heh Zos 16:34, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't need to wait to bring the material over. You can start any time. The only thing protection prevents is removing it from the other article. But that can be done any time whenever it is unprotected. —Hanuman Das 17:00, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No I just mean I'm going to ask the editor or editors who added it, to add it here, as it was not my material, I'm not going to reproduce it here as there were not many citations. And then once the page is unpro, I myself can briefly describe the off shoot over there. One of the many problems at that time, to protect the page, was that there were no citatons for the offshoots, and now I have them. Zos 17:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

text: That's not really necessary. Just put in the edit comment where it is coming from. The editor(s) who added it there may be long gone... —Hanuman Das 17:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd rather not at risk of more confusion. I've had too many arguments over just adding things to pages concerning the Golden Dawn (nothing to do with Baba). I also meant, aside from the main web sites of those offshoots. Those were the only citations, and couldnt be used on the main golden dawn article. Zos 17:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  unprotected 

message: I think I've got it. I'm fixing the formatting so I can add more to the activities of the order. I hope this is all well and fine. I'm splitting up the history into a few section. One will deal with the origins, the next for other temples, reasons for their being other temples (some are other factions of this offshoot!), and the next section can deal with the order in search of the secret chiefs, why they were searching, and why they found/what happened. Let me get started! Zos 00:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formatting 

message: King, Francis (1989). Modern Ritual Magic: The Rise of Western Occultism is the only source I have come across linking Robert Felkin to the founding of the Guild of St Raphael. Recently (in Chrism, March 2006), minutes from the founding of the Guild in 1915 are published. The founders mentioned are the first Warden Revd Canon RP Roseveare, Vicar of St Pauls Depford and Secretary Miss Caroline Briggs (who seems to have been from letters one of the main early organisers getting it off the ground). There is no mention of Felkin, and I have to conclude that King is mistaken, or that perhaps more probably Felkin claimed to have founded that Guild when he only had a casual acquaintance with it. Consequently, I have amended the article to make this "founding" by Felkin more properly ambiguous, as King gives no source in his book.
--TonyinJersey 07:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guild Origins