Talk:Sophia (wisdom)

message: Sophia is also highly revered in gnostic Luciferianism. Lucifer is often seen as the image of GMH{God most High}- or Sophia. Some strains of Luciferianism see Sophia as the female of Lucifer{along with Lillith for those of Luciferian Satanist inclination, not most other Luciferian sects though}. I think it is important that this get mentioned in the wiki article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.13.25.124 (talk) 22:05, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Luciferians

message: I have added the original research tag to the article as there are some problematic sections.
The section "the fall of Sophia" seems to pick and choose elements of various gnostic systems without distinguishing between them. For instance, the "four elements" hypothesis is clearly not an essential part of gnostic speculation and does not appear universally in their cosmology. In particular the "echoes" of Sophia portion is rather problematic. First, this seems to be opinion. Second, this is synthesis of information (comparison/contrast with other religious myths). Third, it suffers from cum hoc ergo propter hoc, post hoc ergo propter hoc and anachronism.
The paragraph comparing Sophia/Mary has similar problems. First, there is the factual error that no branch of Christianity sees Mary as "outside Creation" or "not fallen or in need of redemption" or that she may not be "mentioned at all." These errors are all verifiable. The remaining similarities between Sophia/Mary (in this paragraph) are: gender (female), need of redemption and they are both prominant figures in their religious systems. These factors alone are not a worthy comparison. Secondly, this is clearly original research. I should note that I am in support of a Sophia/Mary section, however it needs to feature the reliable research done in this area, not simply the editor's opinion.
I have two suggestions for this article. The first is that this entire article be merged into Gnosticism with a small section on Gnostic themes in other religions. The second, if the first is not desireable, is that this article should give a short summary (shorter than the current one) hitting the key points shared by most gnostic systems as an introduction, followed by the brief features of each system as represented in each text (Pistis Sophia, etc). It should conclude with a brief synopsis of Sophia in other religions.
Preceding unsigned comment added by Npmccallum (talk) 01:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Original Research

message: Agree with above, article should be a part of Gnosticism.  The Westerb Esoteric expression of Christianity is highly dependent on the gnostic one, if not more or less, for our culture, the same.  Keep this article in gnosticism.  Christianity is still defined by the Council of Nicea of 325 AD, as you will find more than 95% of Christians and churches accepting the Nicean creed and the canon of old and new testaments as decided there.  Gnostic "Christianity" makes reference to the figure of Christ but is not thereby Christianity, as it rejects whole-cloth essential Christian doctrines - otherwise it would also make sense to speak of Muslim Christianity since the Muslim faith also refers to a figure of Jesus as an important prophet and one who will partake in future judgement of mankind.  For the purposes of Wikipedia, Gnostic "Christianity" would need to be accepted by a significant portion of Christianity, and simply having a mythical figure of Christ as an element of this religion is not sufficent.  Christianity is largely defined by a centrality of Christ to doctrine, and Gnosticism reduces Christ to but a low level of emanations - a position shared with Sofia.  Furthermore, the claim that Sofia is a central term in Orthodox Christianity does not seem to be backed up by the text of this article - it would seem that Sofia is rather a central term to some authors who have been rejected by Orthodox Christianity.
The article at times is confused between Wisdom personified as a literary device, with the aim of illustrating a human (and or divine) characteristic, and an figure to which a significant group of people would attribute actual existince - a divine being.
E.g., Proverbs and Hildegaard van Bingen both clearly use Wisdom as a literary device, without imputing actual existence to the literary figure.
The confusion here is exacerbated by continually using the word Sophia, and capitalizing it as well - for example, in connecting Mary.
Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.240.195.196 (talk) 20:45, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Agree with suggestions above

message: Although I see many of the points you are trying to make, the idea of the Sophia as a spirit of wisdom is one aspect of Christianity, whereas some mystical aspects of Esoteric Christianity not only seem to treat Sophia as a spirit of wisdom, but also as a Goddess or deity-emanated type of entity in her own right (or even perhaps as a sort of female equivalent to Jesus.)  They may believe that Sophia emanates from God, as many Christians seem to believe that Jesus also emanates from God (though some believe that Jesus is one and the same with God.)  Some of those who believe that Jesus and God are connected through a Holy Spirit, also believe in the possibility of other Spirits of God.  To some Esoteric Christians, one of those Holy Spirits is embodied in the concept of Sophia, or the wisdom of God.  To some, Jesus is the light of the world, and Sophia is the wisdom of God.  That's not too different from the idea of Jesus currently existing as a spirit either.  The spirit of the light of the world (Jesus) emanating from God, and the spirit of the wisdom of God (Sophia) emanating from God.  
There are different forms of Christianity, as I'm sure you are aware, and many different interpretations thereof.  The writings of Jakob Böhme were influential to many different types of Christians.  This might be referred to as "Christian Mysticism", or "Esoteric Christianity", and there are some similarities with what is called "Gnostic Christianity".  Though not generally considered "Mainstream Christianity", these differing types do exist (and many other differing types as well.)  The representation of Sophia in these different forms and interpretations is therefore important to this article on the theological concept(s) of Sophia.
Don't throw out the article (or what is in the article) just because you don't like other views and interpretations on different types of Christianity.  Certain aspects in Orthodox Christianity believe in the concept of Sophia, both inside and what is considered "outside" accepted church doctrine.  There are different types of Christianity, and not always, as you say, "defined by the Council of Nicea of 325 AD".  Don't suppress the Sophia!  The Harmony Society believed that Sophia was an important religious concept in their interpretation of Christianity.  Not only that, but Sophia was depicted as being a winged virgin spirit or Goddess.
Geneisner (talk) 21:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Disagree with suggestions above

message: Someone should do a study unifying the mysticism of these three concepts which are clearly derived from the same idea. The Shekhinah of the Kabbalah is the female aspect of God who helped create the universe and is simultaneously beside God and confined to the Malkuth, the Kingdom of Matter where we reside. The aim of Kabbalists is to reunite the Shekhinah, which is simultaneously the Soul of God and of Man with God's highest aspect. This cosmological doctrine is surely identical to that of the Sophia of Christian Gnosticism (indeed both ideas stem from the same sections of the Bible - Proverbs and the story of Solomon)? The Divine Marriage (Hieros Gamos) of the Sophia/Shekhinah with God is dramatised in the Song Of Solomon and is again parallel with the Hindu concept of the marriage of Shakti and Shiva which Kundalini Yoga aims to bring about. The great Gnostic theologian Valentinus believed in the androgyny of the Soul and Godhead (as do the Kabbalists cf Bashevis Singer's story Yentl) and also believed that the Divine Marriage was the ultimate goal of the Christian mystic. 
What's fascinating is that all these Eastern and Western spiritual/mystical traditions connect in this way but the existence of female spirituality in mainstream Judaism/Christianity is suppressed in a way in which it isn't in the East. The best the Christians tend to get is the Virgin Mary, who embodies the spirituality of motherhood but not female sexuality, as the concept of the Divine Marriage does. Perhaps this goes hand in hand with the Western view that sexuality is inherently unclean and the means by which Original Sin came into the world. With this in mind Valentinus' idea of the Hieros Gamos and the reclaiming of sexual union into a spirituality is perhaps a liberating one. To Valentinus the Divine Feminine is both Mother and Bride, rather than just Mother as in mainstream Christianity, perhaps expanding our understanding of the female journey. In the same way Masculine Spirituality is both Father and Groom. In fact such imagery is in the Bible - Christ is described as the Groom to the Church - but not enough is made of it. 
What's interesting is that Western spirituality has tended to desexualise men and women, women in particular. The concept of Sophia tends to be seen as Gnostic and/or heretical, as were early attempts to view the Holy Spirit as the Female nature of God. In Hinduism the female Gods - Kali, Shakti et al - remain intensely potent, alive and equal to the male. It is interesting that the Greek pantheon also recognised the power of female spirituality in the form of figures such as Artemis, Athena and Aphrodite but where imagery of Apollo works its way into Christianity through its encounter with Hellenism none of these energies continue into the new religion unless one equates Artemis with the Virgin Mary.
Any thoughts?ThePeg 22:36, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are seeing the same universal truths being shown by different cultures at different times but the understanding of them is esoteric.  According to the teachings given at Gnosticweb these aspects you mention above represent various parts of our higher selves which reside in higher dimensions, our Being is made up of male and female aspects.  Shakti and Shiva are akin to The Divine Mother(Mary) and the Holy Spirit(a male aspect) respectively. Kali is another aspect of the Divine Mother. Sophia can be representative of our true divine consciousness which is immersed and trapped in the darkness of our egos (psychological adjuncts).  Using various techniques it is said we can gradually free the trapped consciousness and so gradually re-unite (re-ligion) with the parts of our Being and so totally transform our psyche.  One of these techniques involves using the sexual energies in a spiritual way to purify them as opposed to the usual unclean lustful way. Bride and Groom, wedding garments of the soul etc are esoteric references to the parts of the Being and to incarnating them within, one of those parts is the Christ, the highest is the Father but ultimately the Being is beyond sex or gender. Percevalles 12:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sophia, Shekhinah, Shakti

message: It might be worth adding something to the effect that Sophia is not an invention of the Gnostics but is a figure in the Bible. She appears most powerfully in the Book of Proverbs in the Old Testament where she speaks with her own voice in Chapter 8. Other movements in mainstream Christianity have also tried to champion the Sophia as an expression of the Divine Feminine. Within the Catholic Church Dame Hildegard of Bingen gave visual and verbal expression to her in her vision-images and writings and in the Russian Orthodox Church Sergei Bulgakov developed Sophiology to its apotheosis in his work SOPHIA: The Wisdom Of God. THe Gnostics didn't just pluck the Sophia out of the air but developed rather than supressed her as an expression of the Divine Feminine. If the mainstream churches had kept her in perhaps we would not have had the history of supression of women in Christianity we have had for so long. 
HAving written what I did above I have discovered that the Shekinah is not the same thing as the Sophia. The Sophia is 'the Wisdom of God' while the Shekinah is 'the Glory of God'. The Christian Gnostics seem to conflate the Sophia with the Kabbalistic drama of the Shekinah in their cosmology though as the Shekinah is both next to God and exiled in the realm of matter in the same way as the Gnostic Sophia is.
In the end the Gnostic drama of the Sophia is presumably an expression of the search to reunite the Masculine and Feminine aspects of God again - an idea which feeds into esoteric Christian movements such as Alchemy and Rosicrucianism much later. ThePeg 22:35, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sophia in the Bible

message: In his Oration On The Dignity Of Man Pico de Mirandola talks about Homer concealing in his work the Eternal Wisdom and of course if one looks at the Odyssey one can see enacted in the relationship between Odysseus and Athena exactly the drama of the Sophia/Shekinah with the Spiritual Wayfarer. It is no coincidence, surely, that Athena is the Goddess of Wisdom - the Goddess of Sophia. Just as the genesis of Christianity was in many ways Greek so, presumably, Christianity evolved the idea that the Feminine Spirit of Wisdom could walk alongside men out of the insights of the Greeks coupled with those of the Jews with their vision of the Shekinah. The interesting thing is how often Wisdom is embodied by a Female figure - Sophia in Christianity, Athena in Hellenism, Ma'at in Egyptian mythology. Worth exploring I think. ThePeg 22:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Homer & The Sophia/Shekinah

message: One more mytholigical link with the Sophia is the story of Pandora, the Greek figure whose curiosity opens up misfortune and suffering on the world but also allows Hope into it to counter those destructive forces. Pandora, like the Sophia of the Gnostics, is therefore responsible for the Fall but also, potentially, key to the Redemption. Given that the image of the Sophia in Christianity is probably strongest among the Greek/Russian Orthodox Church it isn't surprising that the Pandora legend has worked its way into Byzantine Christianity. Pandora also presumably has some connection with Eve and her 'First Disobedience' which bring suffering and death into the world but also the means by which the Saviour can be incarnated and therefore all can be redeemed. ThePeg 23:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pandora & The Sophia

message: I've beefed up this article with a few extra details and a clearer introduction to what the Sophia meant to the Gnostics. I hope this enlarges the debate, clarifies the article a little etc. I added the Star Wars reference. Some people will think this silly but in fact Star Wars follows the classical archetypal pattern of the imprisoned Anima being rescued by the Animus figures of Luke Sywalker and Han Solo. The reason why the Star Wars Trilogy worked so well was because it plugged into the archetypal world of myth. This was fully conscious - Lucas based his story on the Joseph Campbell book The Hero With A Thousand Faces. I look forward to someone deciding to take it off. Mind you, since I'm the only one who seems interested in this topic I imagine it won't change. :-) ThePeg 22:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More Beefing Up (if that's the right word)

message: Presumably the parallels between Christ and the Sophia and Siva and Shakti would be more easily understandable to us if instead of talking about the Sophia as the Bride of Christ or even his Syzygy we spoke of her as being Christ (which, after all, is what a Syzygy is). If we see Christ as a fully developed human being then in esoteric terms he is Man/Woman. Thus Sophia is not only the Female Aspect of God/Christ but actually IS God/Christ. In Kaballistic terms this is the fulfilment of the name Elohim which translates as He/She/Gods. If we were able to conceive of a religion which truly understood this then can you imagine how things would be transformed? Try to imagine a Divinity in which Christ and the Sophia are one and the same as opposed to separate. A Sophianic Christianity as opposed to the Christianity we have had to make do with which, for all its splendour and achievements, has excluded the Feminine for generations. ThePeg 15:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Syzygy

message: In the Apocryphal Biblical book the Wisdom of Solomon (I say Apocryphal, it was obviously in use in the first millenia of Christianity as Meister Eckhardt wrote a commentary on it) the personification of the Sophia goes even further than it does in the Book of Proverbs (also attributed to Solomon). In the first part of the book (which is unutterably beautiful, by the way) the Sophia is overtly the Bride and the means by which God operates in the world and helps humanity. There is a wonderful description of how she helped with the progress of Man through the stories of the Old Testament and several sections in which the writer enacts how Solomon wooed and won the Sophia, making Her his Bride. Its quite beautiful and embraces all the elements discussed above of the Sophia as the Bride of the (male) Soul, just as Christ is the Groom of the (female) soul and the Sophia as an aspect of God. It is regarded as being part of the Jewish Chokmah or Wisdom Tradition and dating back to the Golden Age of Alexandria. There are many similarities to it and works of St Paul, suggesting that it was in circulation in his time and an influence on his thinking. It is also echoed in Matthew's Gospel. You can get it in the OUP Edition of the Bible with added Apocryphal Texts and the Kessinger Books edition. If you're interested in this subject I cannot recommend it highly enough. ThePeg 18:26, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sophia and the Wisdom of Solomon

message: Should anyone else be interested in this site I am looking to build a consensus for changing it to encompass the idea of the Sophia above and beyond its purely Gnostic aspect. The subject is huge and I would like to enlarge the article's scope. This would mean renaming it along the lines of something like Sophia (Wisdom of God) or Sophia (Christianity and Gnosticism) or somesuch other idea and including Eastern Orthodox, Western Esoteric Christian and Judaic expressions of the Sophia as well as the hugely important Gnostic Christian one. What do people think? ThePeg 16:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Enlarging Article

message: I would say no - the Westerb Esoteric expression is highly dependent on the gnostic one, if not more or less, for our culture, the same.  Keep this article in gnosticism.  Christianity is still defined by the Council of Nicea of 325 AD, as you will find more than 90% of Christians and churches accepting the Nicean creed and the canon of old and new testaments as decided there.  Gnostic "Christianity" makes reference to the figure of Christ but is not thereby Christianity, as it rejects whole-cloth essential Christian doctrines - otherwise it would also make sense to speak of Muslim Christianity since the Muslim faith also refers to a figure of Jesus as an important prophet and one who will partake in future judgement of mankind.  For the purposes of Wikipedia, Gnostic "Christianity" would need to be accepted by a significant portion of Christianity, and simply having a mythical figure of Christ as an element of this religion is not sufficent.  Christianity is largely defined by a centrality of Christ to doctrine, and Gnosticism reduces Christ to but a low level of emanations - a position shared with Sofia.  Furthermore, the claim that Sofia is a central term in Orthodox Christianity does not seem to be backed up by the text of this article - it would seem that Sofia is rather a central term to some authors who have been rejected by Orthodox Christianity.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.240.195.196  (talk) 20:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Problems with article enlargement in present form

message: I am not associated with any so-called "church", or other group of any kind.  I am merely providing this information in that it may be of some help, and only to say that per 1 Corinthians 2:13, "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.", is the only way truth in God's word the Bible is found....   There are numerous infallible proofs per say in the Bible which show who the Holy Spirit is, and the nature of this Spirit of God, which are unfortunately and vastly lost to doctrines of men in most circles, and additionally disguised by Bible translations which paraphrase doctrines of men, failing to see the Word for what it says.   One of a vast number of examples, the connections in these passages are widely overlooked: 
2Jn1:1 The elder unto the elect *lady* AND *her children*, whom I *love in the truth*; and not I only, but also all they that have *known the truth*;
2Jn1:5 And now I beseech thee, *lady*, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that *which we had from the beginning*, that we *love* one another.
John15:26 But when the *Comforter* is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even *the Spirit of truth*, which proceedeth from the Father, [he/(she)] shall testify of me:
John14:26 But the *Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost*, whom the Father will send in my name, [he/(she)] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Prv8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Prv8:23 I was set up from everlasting, *from the beginning*, or ever the earth was.
Prv8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Prv8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Prv8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Prv8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Prv8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Prv8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Prv8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Prv8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Prv3:18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.
It is also overlooked what the Promise spoken of in the Bible actually is:
Deu6:3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath *promised thee*, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
Luke3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: *he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost* and with fire:
Acts2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father *the promise of the Holy Ghost*, [he/(she)] hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Prv1:20 *Wisdom* crieth without; [she] uttereth [her] voice in the streets:
Prv8:11 For *wisdom* is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are *not to be compared to [it\(her)]*.
The above is just one example, not even the tip of the iceburg. Additionally, a vast wealth of information is gleaned by going back to the original Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek of the Bible. Those languages are so colorful in word meaning, that looking to the original words, and word roots in conjunction with realizing the Word of God is a book of parables, only then do we begin to see light. 
Psa78:2 I will *open my mouth in a parable*: I will utter dark sayings of old:
Prv1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will *pour out my spirit unto you*, I will make known my words unto you.
Jer31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A *voice was heard in Ramah*, lamentation, and bitter weeping; *Rahel weeping for her children* refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Jer31:16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for *thy work shall be rewarded*, saith the LORD; and *they shall come* again from the land of the enemy.
Jer31:17 And there is *hope in thine end*, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
Rom5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because *the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost* which is given unto us.
Isa44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, and [he/(she/that One)] that *formed thee from the womb*, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 
John3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is
every one that is *born of the Spirit*.
Rev12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; *a woman* clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: -
Ge1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the *image of God* created he him; *male and female* created he them.
2Cor4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious *gospel of Christ, who is the image of God*, should shine unto them.
1Cor11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and *the head of the woman is the man*; and the head of Christ is God.
1Cor6:19 What? know ye not that *your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost* which is in you, which ye have of God, and *ye are not your own*?
Titus3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and *renewing of the Holy Ghost*;
Rev19:8 And to her was granted that *she should be arrayed in fine linen*, clean and white: for the fine linen is *the righteousness of saints*.
2Pet1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be *partakers of the divine nature*, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Ge21:6 And *Sarah* said, God hath made me to laugh, so that all that *hear* will laugh with me.
Luke1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth *heard the salutation* of Mary, the *babe leaped in her womb*; and Elisabeth was *filled with the Holy Ghost*:
Prv1:8 My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
But there is a little more complexity to the "woman", namely a mother figure and two daughters.  One which remains true, and the other which departs, but both from the same mother: 
Eze23:2 Son of man, there were *two women*, *the daughters of one mother*. 
Ruth1:8 And *Naomi said unto her two daughters in law*, Go, return each to her mother's house: the LORD deal kindly with you, as ye have dealt with the dead, and with me.
Ruth1:15 And she said, Behold, *thy sister in law is gone back* unto her people, and *unto her gods*: return thou after thy sister in law.
Ruth1:16 And *Ruth said*, *Intreat me not to leave thee*, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: *thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God*:
Gal4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by *a bondmaid*, the other by *a freewoman*.
Gal4:23 But he who was of the *bondwoman was born after the flesh*; but he of the *freewoman was by promise*.
Gal4:24 Which things are an *allegory*: for these are the *two covenants*; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal4:26 But *Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all*.
SSol4:9 Thou hast ravished my heart, *my sister, my spouse*; thou hast ravished my heart with one of thine eyes, with one chain of thy neck.
Isa62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall *thy sons marry thee*: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
Perhaps one statement which indicates the quietness regarding the "woman" is related to this verse: 
Ruth3:14 And she lay at his feet until the morning: and she rose up before one could know another. And he said, *Let it not be known that a woman came into the floor*.
Jer51:33 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; The daughter of Babylon is *like a threshingfloor*, *it is time to thresh her*: yet a little while, and *the time of her harvest shall come*.
This complexity might be best understood in light such verses as these:  
John10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be *one fold, and one shepherd*.
John17:23 *I in them, and thou in me*, that they may be *made perfect in one*; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
1Cor15:23 But *every man in his own order*: *Christ the firstfruits*; *afterward they that are Christ's at [his/(her/that one's)] coming*.
John6:63 It is the *Spirit that quickeneth*; the flesh profiteth nothing: *the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life*.
Titus3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and *renewing of the Holy Ghost*;
Rev21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, *Write: for these words are true and faithful*.
2Cor2:17 For *we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God*: but as of sincerity, but as of God, *in the sight of God speak we in Christ*
John14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *another* Comforter, that [he/(she/that one)] *may abide with you for ever*;
1Jn5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Gal6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting
1Cor15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that *God may be all in all*.
Eph1:23 Which is *[his/(her)] body*, the fulness of him *that filleth all in all*.
1Cor15:44 It is *sown a natural body*; it is *raised a spiritual body*. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
To actually declare all the Biblical evidence would take vast books and time, so it has been spoken in a parable, that those who hear, will understand! 
John21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even *the world itself could not contain the books that should be written*. Amen.
:Preceding unsigned comment added by Baitzph  (talk) 18:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.126.41.191  (talk) 14:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Biblical Evidence of the nature of the Holy Spirit?

message: Thank God someone took off that kitsch picture! It was totally inappropriate! Thank you! The other one is great. :-) Here's another image that might work. I don't know how to put it on. I know it says St Mary Magdelene but its actually the Sophia:
http://www.saintmarymagdalen.com/eileen/images/e_icon72.jpg
 
ThePeg 12:40, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture Edit

message: There is an enormous parallel between the Gnostic story of the Sophia and the Tantric idea of the Siva/Shakti. In fact they are almost identical. In Tantra, before the creation of the Universe the Male Prinicpal (Shiva) and the Female (Shakti) are locked in a loving, sexual embrace of such intensity that neither is aware of the other, so complete is their Unity. The Universe comes into being as the Shakti becomes aware and moves away from Siva. Gradually the Male and Female principle separate. Shakti then begins her dance before Siva. So hypnotic is the dance that Siva begins to be drawn into the Illusion of Time and Matter, believing that he is Many rather than One. At the end of this process humanity appears, each individual a part of Siva caught in the Dance of Shakti. In this state the individual believes that he/she exists in Time and Space, separated from the Divine Unity. The aim of Tantra is to reunite the Male/Female energy and thus restore the Unity of all Things, thus liberating us from Time and Space.
This is pretty much identical to the idea of the Sophia breaking off from the Pleroma and her syzygy with Christ as a consequence of which all Creation comes into being until the Christ-Sophia disunity can be restored. It also, extraordinarily, explains the meaning of the Biblical Genesis story and why it is Eve (Shakti) who eats the Fruit of Knowledge first, thus causing Adam (Siva) to fall into a world of Matter and Time having been in the state of perfect Unity in Eden. 
Fascinating. The indication is that the roots of Gnosticism, indeed all religions which have a similar vision of Union with the Godhead (cf Song of Songs in the Old Testament & the Kaballistic idea of the marriage of Tiphareth with the Shekinah/Malkuth) lie in some of the most ancient mystical systems known to Man. ThePeg 17:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: May I also take exception that no one has mentioned that, because lots of my buddies have told me I'm smart, that the article nowhere mentions that in fact I am Sophia?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.240.195.196  (talk) 20:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Further notes on Sophia - Shakti

message: It seems that Editor2020 and I have some differing views on whether it is spelled "Sofya" in relation to Platonism or "Sofiya".  The reason I think it should be "Sofya" is because most of the sources that I've seen in relation to Plato and Platonism spell it that way.  For example, on page 235 in the book Dostoevsky and the Christian Tradition by George Pattison and Diane Oenning Thompson (2001) it says, "Sofya/Sophia... which translates, of course, as Plato's Wisdom."  On page 216 of Platonica by Alice Swift Riginos (1976) there's reference to "an Arabic translation in Codex Aya Sofya, Istanbul, 4833..."  There is reference in Plato's "Symposion" in the Arabic Tradition by Dimitri Gutas (1988), "this treatise on the basis of the famous Aya Sofya 4832 manuscript..."  If you Google search "Aya Sofya" or "Ayasofya", you get many more results than if you spell it with the "i".  I could also find more citations with the spelling "Sofya" instead of "Sofiya" in relation to Plato and Platonism too.  So, that is why I think it should be spelled "Sofya" instead of "Sofiya" in the In Platonism section. Geneisner (talk) 07:04, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sofya or Sofiya in Platonism? 

message: Academic texts generally refer to wisdom as "wisdom" - when talking about Ancient Greece, the Hebrew Bible, Christianity, even Gnosticism. Why does this article title need to be in Greek? Is the subject Wisdom in Greek philosophy, Wisdom in Gnosticism? In ictu oculi (talk) 03:22, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:naming conventions (use English)]]

message: I had not even looked at this page, but noticed it as a result of the link to Jesus as Wisdom.
:* I do like the new material, and the substance looks good to me. The only issue is that the link format make it hard to read. We had a discussion about Wikisource bible links which are easier to read, and if those can be used will be nice.
:* I noticed that Bulgakov is mentioned in passing elsewhere, but not in Christology. That may need a small mention there - although rejected. 
I am not working on this page, so I will just leave this as a suggestion. History2007 (talk) 19:22, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: New Christology material

message: I am trying to stick a photo (from Wikimedia commons) of the monumental statue of Sophia in her namesake city, which is really cool. Unfortunately, they won't let me. I'll try again....  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.91.213.66 (talk) 10:55, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: That Huge Statue in Bulgaria

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: User Sophiagoddess vandalized the part of the introduction dealing with the concept of Sophia in "Orthodox and Roman Catholic Christianity" by including ideas totally contrary to Orthodox or Roman Catholic theology, replacing the reference to "God the Son" with "God the Mother" and hyperlinking to a Wikipedia article on a Korean sect entirely unrelated to Orthodox or Catholic Churches. The user claimed as justification in the edit summary "sophia is also known as the mother of god, not an emanation of god. god told me this." I have reverted the change.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.104.248.37 (talk) 14:04, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for letting us know and for catching that, . For the record, what is being discussed is this edit by , which the IP user had correctly reverted. I have welcomed  and informed them of these concerns on their talk page. With that said, please assume good faith here; calling bad-faith editors "vandals" is best avoided, anyway, though I understand why you did so. Regardless, I have posted a welcome template on your talk page, as well. Perhaps it will help you. —Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 15:55, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "God the Mother" 

message: The 'Sophiology' section reeks of extreme bias. Fr. Sergius Bulgakov's doctrine was not condemned as heretical (his works were not themselves viewed by the groups that issued the censures on particular parts of his system), nor was the man himself. Moreover, none of the authors listed considered Mary a 'fourth person of the Trinity'--with the possible exception of Soloviev, who was most certainly speaking poetically. I also notice that the language of the section seems to describe Bulgakov's 'Sophia' as some sort of person consubstantial with other persons in the Trinity. Anyone who's read Bulgakov would be able to tell you that he consistently identifies Sophia not as a person (he attacks the idea that she is and calls people who think so dim-witted in 'the Lamb of God'), but with God's essence. The only sources given are OrthodoxWiki and a fairly unreliable book written by a Russian theologian and translated by a controversial Orthodox figure. Would anyone be willing to correct some of the more glaring pieces of misinformation in the section?
199.89.180.254 (talk) 04:05, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orthodox Mysticism/Sophiology