Talk:HMS Bellerophon (1786)

message: I don't normally like to revert language changes, but User:Dabbler's was especially awkward, and changed the sense of the wording in several ways. For instance, just saying that the ship stayed offshore does not say whether the captain or the Admiralty made the decision; characterizing it as an Admiralty order is an additional assertion that would need sourcing. Good article-writing is still good writing, let's not convert everything into minimal English. Stan 16:06, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are free to have your opinions about the quality of my writing but I not only added some true information, I also corrected a number of typos etc. which you happily reinserted with your reversion. I have now considerably expanded the entry using information from the book "The Billy Ruffian" which is in the Reference section. I trust that you will at least treat this edit with a bit more respect. Dabbler 23:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The second iteration is much improved, thanks! Stan 06:13, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment 

message: I've pasted in an infobox but it needs more data, which will probably be found in the book The Billy Ruffian. Cheers, JackyR | Talk 23:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: *Was it Captain Darby?
**"It must have been shortly after the fall of the main and mizen masts that Captain Darby, finding, from the severe injuries his ship had sustained, that it was necessary for him to quit the action, ordered the [anchor] cable to be cut, and the ship to be wore [a sailing term] clear of the enemy.  Accordingly the foresail was set, and the ship, answering the helm, would soon have been clear out of action, when the foremast also fell over the larboard [i.e. port] bow, leaving the Bellerophon with a spiritsail only with which to escape.  To add to her helpless state, the ship was on fire in several places, from the combustibles fired at her from the Tonnant and other ships..."United Service Magazine, England's Wooden Walls, XI, Bellerophon, by Joseph Allen, 1840, p466.
*Was it Lieutenant Cathcart?
**"Lieutenant Cathcart was first brought into public notice at the ever-memorable battle of the Nile, on which occasion the command of the Bellerophon devolved on him, in consequence of the second Lieutenant being killed by the fall of the main-mast. during her sanguinary conflict l'Orient of 120 guns, bearing the flag of Vice-Admiral Brueys, whose fate has been recorded at p.184 of our first volume. Observing that immense ship in flames, Lieutenant Cathcart very prudently gave orders to cut the Bellerophon's cable, and after drifting some miles from the scene of action, he had the good fortune to bring her up with the kedge, her only remaining anchor."Royal Naval Biography; or, Memoirs of the Services of All the Flag-officers, Superannuated Rear-admirals, Retired-captains, Post-captains, and Commanders, Whose Names appeared on the Admiralty List of Sea Officers at the commencement of the year 1823, or who have since been promoted; illustrated by a series of historical and explanatory notes ... With Copious Addenda: Supplement Part 1, by John Marshall, pub Longman, Rees, Orme, Brown, and Green, 1827, p375-6.
**"Captain Darby was hit in the head rendering him unconscious and was carried below to Bellamy the surgeon.  Lieutenants Daniel and Lander, the ship's First and Second Lieutenants respectively, were wounded but remained at their posts. John Hadaway, the Fourth Lieutenant, was also wounded and carried below and George Jolife, the Fifth Lieutenant was killed instantly.  Shortly afterwards Lieutenant Daniel had his right leg carried away by a round shot; while being carried below he was killed outright with a hail of grapeshot which also killed the seamen carrying him.  For over an hour the Bellerophon endured the onslaught meted out by the great French ship until at 8 p.m. her mizzen mast, shot through, collapsed over the stern, the main mast followed shortly fell across the waist and forecastle killing Lieutenant Lander and several seamen.  With Captain Darby below and other Lieutenants killed, command of the ship fell temporarily to the 24 year-old Third Lieutenant Robert Cathcart who now faced the problem that the Orient was ablaze.  He gave orders to cut the Bellerophon's cable and, totally dismasted, she drifted some distance before being brought up with the kedge, her only remaining anchor.  Although out of the mêlée, she received a broadside from Tonnant and more distantly from Heureux.The Ships of Trafalgar, by Peter Goodwin, pub Conway Maritime Press, 2005, p67-8.
*Was it Midshipman Hindmarsh?
**"At the battle of the Nile, Hindmarsh, a midshipman of fourteen, was left in charge of the Bellerophon, all the other officers being killed or wounded. (It was upon this same vessel, as we shall see later, that Flinders had a taste of sea fighting). When the French line-of-battle ship L'Orient took fire she endangered the Bellerophon. The boy, with wonderful presence of mind, called up some hands, cut the cables, and was running the ship out of danger under a spirit sail, when Captain Darby came on deck from having his wounds dressed. Nelson, hearing of the incident, thanked young Hindmarsh before the ship's company, and afterwards gave him his commission in front of all hands, relating the story to them."The Life of Captain Matthew Flinders, RN, by Ernest Scott, first published 1914, pub Cambridge University Press, 2011,  p15-16
**"At the battle of the Nile in August 1798, while briefly the only officer on deck in the engagement with L'Orient (Captain Casabianca), he [Hindmarsh] showed great resource by freeing his ship; he was commended by Nelson, but received a contusion through which he later lost the sight of an eye."
**Hindmarsh "Served in the Bellerophon, at the battle of the 1st June 1794, and in the same ship at the battle of the Nile, where he was thanked by Lord Nelson for his conduct, when the only officer on the quarterdeck, on the occasion of the L'Orient taking fire.  He received on this occasion a contusion, from which he lost the sight of one eye."Navy Estimates 1850-51, p66.
**Nelson wrote in a letter to Lady Hamilton dated 1 August 1803: "I have this day made… Mr. Hindmarsh, gunner's son, of the Bellerophon, who behaved so well this day five year, a Lieutenant."The Letters of Lord Nelson to Lady Hamilton, Vol. I. , Letter 33, 1 August 1803.
**"The ship had largely been saved through the exertions of John Hindmarsh..."Nelson s Battles: The Triumph of British Seapower, by Nicholas Tracy, originally published 1965, pub Seaforth Publishing, 2008, p72.
**"At the age of thirteen he saved the Bellerophon at the Battle of the Nile..."'The Journal of the Northumberland & Durham Family History Society, Volume 12, No 2, Summer 1987, p40, From Durham To The South Seas, by FS Hindmarsh, (This is p13 of the pdf file.)
**"The Bellerophon now found her situation more than she could bear, and as she was totally dismasted and many of her guns were dismounted, Lieutenant Hindmarsh, the sole surviving officer on deck, ordered the crew to cut her cables, and she drifted out of action.  She had engaged the Orient, a ship of twice her force, for over an hour and reduced her foe to such a state that she was a comparatively easy prey for the following ships.  Admiral Blanquet in the Franklin noticed her withdrawal with great satisfaction:
:::At 8 o'clock at night the ship which was engaging the L'Orient on her Starboard Quarter, notwithstanding her advantageous position was dismasted and so roughly treated that she cut her cables and drifted from the line.
::According to the log of the Bellerophon:
:::At 10 observing our antagonist on fire on the middle deck, cut the cable and wore [i.e. sailed] clear of her by loosing the spiritsail. Shortly after cutting [the anchor cable] the foremast was shot away.
::A time discrepancy will be noted in the British and French accounts"HMS Bellerophon, by Colin Pengelly, pub Pen and Sword, 2014, p117.
=== References ===
=== Discussion ===
I noticed that there are different versions of who ordered the cables cut and the spirit sail raised on the Bellerophon at the battle of the Nile on 1 August 1798, and have started to collect relevant information above.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:48, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Battle of the Nile - who ordered the cables cut and the spirit sail raised 

message: I noticed that there are different versions of who ordered the cables cut and the spirit sail raised on the Bellerophon at the battle of the Nile on 1 August 1798, and have started to collect relevant information above.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:48, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: Lovely jargon I'm sure, but could someone clarify "..., and having stored, she sailed from...". I assume it means something like "having taken on stores" being 'supplies'. Don't lose the reader by assuming familiarity with the jargon of your subject. Shenme (talk) 01:21, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tar talk needs clarification 

message: The caption for the image of HMS Bellerophon in harbour surrounded by small boats in the harbour says that it includes two frigates, Eurotas and Liffey. However, they have been cropped out of the version displayed in the article. I don’t know whether the correction must be made in Wikipedia, commons, data, or somewhere else. I have not yet learned how to handle images so this level of editing is beyond me. Perhaps someone could make this minor improvement. Incidentally, is it possible to include a link to the full size image? Humphrey Tribble (talk) 03:24, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading caption for image