Talk:Anne Bonny

message: WikiProject Biography Assessment
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 05:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Assessment#Class_parameter|Biography assessment rating]] comment 

message: Again, the beginning two paragraphs are essentially correct. As for the final paragraph, there are no “official records” of any kind in regard to Anne Bonny, save a trial transcript from Jamaica. Her name is mentioned in a few letters from the Royal Governor Woodes Rogers of the Bahamas, and in a mostly fictional work entitled “A General History of the Pirates.” The reader will notice in nearly all “biographies” of Anne Bonny that supporting documentation of facts is rarely provided. But rather, assertions of authenticity are made in reference of such documents, without the writer actually providing them, save modern reference works that in themselves provide no historical documentation of factual evidence. -- Originally posted to article by  at 02:34, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree and disagree, here.  DeFoe's book is certainly a compendium and compilation; it mimics a work of non-fiction very effectively.  Parts of it follow newspaper accounts closely.  However, other parts describe people and events that have been invented by the author.  (DeFoe invented several characters, events, and details for thematic or narrative effect.)  Our problem as present-day readers is that it wasn't 18th century literary practice to explain to the reader that a text was a mixture of reportage and invention.  Manuel Schonhorn's extensive scholarly  introduction to the 1999 Dover Press edition is essential reading.  (This was originally published in 1972; Schonhorn updated the introduction and bibliography for the Dover edition of 1999.) --Galliaz 10:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment from 68.3.42.145 

message: One other important thing: I also think there's a big problem with the way the recent History Channel documentary is being used as a source to substantiate information in the entry. I believe the entry should actually list who actually provided the information that's cited from the documentary: did the "talking head" from the documentary provide a source for their information, or were they speculating on camera? Have they written an article or book that we can cite in the entry? Most importantly, could a researcher check the speaker's sources in order to independently verify what they have said? --Galliaz 13:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't believe a History Channel documentary is even cited at all.  If the statements made there are well-founded, then they're probably repeating something in published sources, which ought to be cited instead.  But I don't think the History Channel documentaries, in themselves, have high enough of a reputation to earn citation in an encyclopedia.  In fact, I think they're awful, and routinely sacrifice accuracy to entertainment.    But that's my opinion.  71.129.81.136 19:40, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But History Channel rarely, if ever, actually cites its sources. The trail of information stops at them. While anything on History Channel is likely to be well researched, without them citing their sources, they cannot be cited by Wikipedia. Citing History Channel about pirates holds the same scholarly weight as citing someone who says "I'm 400 years old. I am my source."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.254.163.150 (talk) 10:35, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Establishing Facts in an Encyclopedia Entry

message: Section "Marriage and Later Affair With a Pirate" says "He complained to the governor...". Who complained - Rackham or James Bonny ? Why would he complain to the Governor ? Jay 01:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems rather odd to me that either James Bonny or Jack Rackham would complain, as both were likely members of the Brethren of the Coast. A pirate complaining to a governor is just as likely to get captured as the pirate they're complaining about. 24.254.163.150 (talk) 10:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Clear in the current version of the article. James complained to charge a case of adultery. James worked as an informant to the governor, and Rackham had the King's pardon, so no question of getting captured. Jay (talk) 03:24, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Who complained to the governor?

message: Captain Charles Johnson's work, A General History of the Pyrates, needs to be reread. He never says that Anne Bonny walked in on Mary Read while dressing.  He says that Bonny was attracted to Read, assuming Read to be a man, and therefore Bonny told Read that she was a woman. Read knew immediately why Bonny was telling her this and so knew that her own secret could not be kept. Therefore, Read then told Bonny that she herself was also a woman. This is how the two women told their secrets to each other.  However, Calico Jack was upset by the close relationship between his lover, Bonny, and Read, whom he still assumed to be a man. So, Bonny told Jack that Read was indeed a woman in order to quell his jealousy.
Bonny, known to be a man, was attracted to Read, also known to be man.  So, Bonny tells Read that Bonny is a woman, hoping to attract Read, still thought of as a man, into an affair.  Read knows that an affair is not possible since she is also a woman and tells Bonny this.  They then began a friendship as co-conspiritors.  Then, in order to defend her friendship with Read to Rackham, Bonny tells Rackham the truth about Read.  
It's confusing but actually clearly laid out in Pyrates.
--Bt1159 19:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, this needs to be explained in the text of the article because the text as is with Bonny and Read and she and she is about as clear as mud. Smokesignal11 (talk) 11:57, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Pyrates" does not say any of that. 

message: I added Anne Bonny to “Disappeared People” because she disappeared from all record with no traces. So she belongs to Category of Disappeared People. I added her awhile back to this category but someone deleted it for no reason. --James 01:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added her to Disappeared People 

message: "He complained to the governor, who brought her before the court, naked, and sentenced her to be flogged and to return to her legal husband. Anne Bonny and Rackham instead eloped."
Wait. What? Really? Was this a typical practice for adulterous women? 74.78.98.109 (talk) 00:40, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naked before the court? 

message: Anne bonny Qestions  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.242.67.207 (talk) 21:20, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anne bonny qestions 

message: In this article it says Anne Bonny's and Mary Read's genders were known from the start. However, in Read's article it clearly states several times that she was dressed as a man. Anne never dressed as a man, but Mary very much did. Sailorknightwing (talk) 01:17, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mary Read Inconsistency 

message: This movie has a citation -needed note.  There is a trailer, with text underneath at http://jmaucoin.com/trailer-a-tattered-flag/.  Is that acceptable?211.225.33.104 (talk) 02:25, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Tattered Flag 

message: After reading this: https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/4ie4sz/anne_bonny_the_female_pirate_how_a_1960s_fiction/ i wonder if there are any sources from before 1960. 87.152.162.27 (talk) 15:39, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Any older sources? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Is it real? Oscar's peace (talk) 13:49, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, subject of this article was a pirate, as provided sources state. Anton.bersh (talk) 19:28, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pirate 

message: I know nothing about Anne Bonny, but couldn't help but notice you have listed her date of birth at the top of the article as 8 March 1697, and then subsequently stated "Bonny was born in Ireland around 1700", and "Bonny's birthdate is speculated to be around 1700."
Can I suggest you remove the incorrect information, whichever it may be.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.5.48.138 (talk) 12:20, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: 1697, if true, is "around 1700." Dgndenver (talk) 15:32, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The honest truth is that we don't really know when she was born.  That date of birth changes rather wildly from 1697 to 1701.  There is no mention of age in her trial transcript or newspaper articles in 1720 or 1721, even General History of the Pyrates doesn't really give an age.  Personally I would just say her birth is unknown, its a cop out but its the most honest statement. Lady Tyler "Bio" Rodriguez (talk) 05:14, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of birth 

message: Hello IP 50.27.241.96, you seem to be involved in a slow edit war with  regarding one statement in lead:
:Before meeting Jack she was unofficially married to a fellow female pirate.
I believe the issue here is that the provided source is not reliable. Fortunately, I found a better source we can use: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Anne-Bonny . I will edit the article accordingly. Anton.bersh (talk) 19:35, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a persistent attempt to add a link to the article along with article text being vandalised. I've restored to the RS link version. Jmccormac (talk) 16:43, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I see. At first I assumed that IP 50.27.241.96 was not malicious and genuinely wanted to clarify the marriage history of Anne Bonny. After the most recent revert it's clear that IP just wants to promote thewayofthepirates.com. I never was in a situation where IP continues reverting even after being invited to a discussion on Talk page. Is there any process to ban a particular site from being used on Wikipedia? Anton.bersh (talk) 18:36, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

text: It to request protection for a page so that only established editors rather can edit it ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Protection_policy ). Adding a site's URL to the spamlist is very much the nuclear option in that some of bots will automatically remove those links if they are added again. Jmccormac (talk) 19:38, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit war regarding thewayofthepirates.com 

message: "She was captured alongside Rackham and Mary Read in October 1720" is the stated date of capture in the article on Anne Bonny. However, the one on Mary Read says "[Read], Bonny and Rackham were arrested in November 1720." These are inconsistent- which is correct? 
I'm creating this new section on both talk pages, as I couldn't determine which one it ought go on.
TypistMonkey (talk) 05:06, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It was October 22, 1720 at around ten PM according to the trial transcript for John Rackam, which was November 16th the same year.  The Tryals of Captain John Rackam and other Pirates, 1721. Lady Tyler "Bio" Rodriguez (talk) 05:33, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of Capture? 

message: This entire section is confounding and should be removed. It seeks to engage in abstract academic discourse about Anne Bonny. You would expect such a delicate section to be extensively referenced in the name of balance. Instead, it exclusively references a single paper, which is locked behind a paywall. It names a number of concepts (transatlantic subject?) that are not explained presumably anywhere other than in the single reference. Furthermore, this reference does not appear, after some googling, to be of much academic significance (if I am wrong, there should be other sources available on this topic - they are not referenced). Until there is more published discourse surrounding the presented abstract concepts in relation to Anne Bonny, I do not think this section meets the standards of balance required for Wikipedia. Additionally, it is riddled with clumsy language and gramatical errors.
Thrdclss (talk) 23:27, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Modern Interpretations of Anne Bonny 

message: There's a large number of citations that are coming from iffy websites and travel guides.  Some sources like Tony Bartlemes Post and Courier article is being used to say General History of the Pyrates is broadly reliable, which isn't what he said.  Citation number is from the Legend of Anne Bonny video which says she was perhaps born in 1690 judging by a parish birth record for an Ann Bonny, not 1700.   
There are several good books that have sections about Anne Bonny that should be quoted, the first one is Professor Neil Rennies book, Treasure Neverland: Real and Imagined Pirates from 2013.  That book has an entire chapter called Something for the Broads that's primarily on the historiography of Anne Bonny and Mary Read from 1724 to 2004.  An earlier chapter went over the primary sources on her, which is mostly a handful of newspaper articles from the Boston Gazette, and the trial transcript of her November 28th trial.  
Another important book is Manushag N. Powell's book, British Pirates in Print and Performance from 2015 which mainly focused on the British history of stageplays and piracy, there's an entire chapter about female piracy and Anne Bonny takes center stage.
Both of these books discuss that there is a long history of people quoting each other and creating new myths instead of primary sources.  John Carlova was a romance writer and his 1964 book Mistress of the Seas should not be quoted by anyone, yet it was ultimately and a lot of his inventions, such as Bonny escaping prison and moving to the Carolinas, and her parents being named William Cormac and Peg Brennan, stem from Carlova.  
Lady Tyler "Bio" Rodriguez (talk) 05:50, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better sources needed 

message: Okay so I have noticed recently people have just been editing in any book to section of the page just titled BOOKS.  First it was romance novel from 2019 about Anne Bonny, now its a 2020 book called The Pavilion which appears to be just a fiction book that includes Anne Bonny.
This needs to change.  I am not happy with the state of the reference section in general.  There is currently one note, 36 references, and two sub sections for websites and books that are not descript.  If you look at a good pirate page like Stede Bonnet, notes get a sub section, references get a sub section, and there's a bibliography not just books and websites.  Also its abundantly clear all the books in the bibliography are cited throughout the page.  Much of the books in the bibliography section are not cited anywhere, like Rebecca Simons 2022 book Pirate Queens.  Its mentioned, but nobody cited it. 
I will say again, this page is what I think the Anne Bonny page should try to replicate more.  I know in some ways that's impossible since Stede Bonnet is a well recorded pirate, and Anne Bonny has less primary sources then one has fingers on a hand.  
Stede Bonnet 
Lady Tyler "Bio" Rodriguez (talk) 06:49, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notes, References, and Books. 

message: Okay, the pop culture section has been a mess for the longest time, it made up a disproportional amount of the overall page, and some of the examples given were incredibly niche including authors adding there own romance novels for more attention.  That being said, having it cut down to about 4 is probably a little too small.  I would say Assassins Creed IV and Black Sails are pretty major pop culture depictions of Anne Bonny, she's a major character in both.  I know she also appeared a lot in swashbuckling films, Neil Rennie's book Treasure Neverland has a full chapter on just Anne Bonny and Mary Read depictions which can be used as a source.   Lady Tyler "Bio" Rodriguez (talk) 20:18, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pop Culture section 

message: — Assignment last updated by ATraylorHolmes (talk) 00:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Humanities 2 1400-present

message: There are three citations given in the ref-list as , , . These seem to be simply incomplete: more bibliographic information is needed. (Also consider for repeated citations of the same works .) Similarly, the citation to Britannica doesn't provide an entry title. Some of the parameters given in templates, eg the following, also seem to be rather wildly misused.

This one here could be re-rendered as, with better bibliographic information.
 The trial does not give an age, and calls her a spinster in one instance. This could theoretically give an age range, but proof of her pregnancy is not assured and thus cannot be trusted.
I haven't taken a really long look however. But given that this appeared very quickly I think some further looking might be advisable. Ifly6 (talk) 22:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly agree with those suggestions.  I've been planning on addressing that for sometime.  Some of those sources like Meltzer or the Britannica citations are not very good and probably ought to be replaced or removed.  Stuff like the trial transcript could be rephrased as you noted. Lady Tyler "Bio" Rodriguez (talk) 22:37, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incomplete citations