Talk:Guru/Archive 4

message: Andries, please note that WP is not a place of advocacy of any kind. If you want to advocate against Gurus and warn the public about the dangers you see, or to tell your personal story, you have all right to do that but not in WP. Get a website or even your own wiki for that. Thank you. --Zappaz 17:29, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The problems with regarding the assessment of a guru and the widespread criticism of gurus is a notable documented discussion and hence deserve to be mentioned here. Andries 17:33, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course! That why it is in the article already! Note that the "widespread criticism" makes the usual mistake to exclude billions of people that think different. That is what I meant by "western perspective". Tell you what Andries: I need to leave now. Give me a chance to include some of the text you added in the previous format of the article. I will have time later in the day. As I said, some of it is very good. --Zappaz 17:38, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Many of these billions of people India are also critical of gurus and also have problems in assessing the guru. Andries 17:53, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you know this, Andries? --Zappaz 19:25, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Both Traditional Hindu scriptures warn against false gurus and modern gurus, like Vivekanda, Yogananda, Prabhupada, Sai Baba, and Sathya Sai Baba. Kranenborg also wrote that there are tradional methods to distinguish charlatans from true gurus. Andries 19:29, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: If the problems are so big that even the word guru received a slightly negative connotation then the problems regarding the assessment of their authenticity deserves an extensive treatment. The somewhat negative connotation that the word has acquired is based on real experiences by real people and  not just on anti-cult propaganda. If people continue to trust the wrong gurus based on ignorance then the reputation of the word will only suffer more. Andries 07:51, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: You are the one who should first seek concensus and give a detailed reply and rebuttal to all the extensive comments and explanations that I have been making for the last few months. Not me. Andries 18:45, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Zappaz, you have no right to revert my edits unless you explain in detail what is wrong with my version. And if you have no time do so then you have to accept that my version should prevail for the time being. Andries 19:02, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: I have already stated my comments many times. I do not have to repeat them over and over again. Andries 21:34, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: WP is not a place for advocacy

message: A Western perspective and a Eastern perspective is a very needed distinction. We assess our world around based on the cultural context from which we observe. Would you say that the perception of the world of a Australian aborigine and the perception of a New Yorker are the same? Is it possible to say that one is more valid than the other? Attempting to "mix" both perspectives in one article would be very, very strange and unusual. More useful to readers will be to show both perceptions from their perspectives. That will be very interesting material, rather than a confusing mishmash of POVs. Same here. For a pious Sikh, there is no higher being than his Guru. He will compare Guru with God, sing the glory of the Guru, pray to his Guru, etc. For a secular person living in Paris, these statements could be seen as ridiculously backward. So, how do you present an article on this subject in NPOV? By clearly making a distinction. This issue is one that most Westerners have a problem with. We somehow think (with no little amount of arrogance, IMO) that our Western perspective is the only one. Now, Wikipedia is not an Western encyclopedia, thank god. This is what is so wonderful about this project. --Zappaz 16:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reasons stated

message: There is no such thing as a "Western perspective" or "Eastern perspective". There is a perspective of the followers of bhakti movements, Christians, Skeptics, humanists, traditional Hindus, Radhasoami adepts etc. regardless where they were born and grew up. Some Indians are skeptics. Is that an Eastern persective? Some Westerners follow bhakti movements. Is that a Western perspective? Very artificial and very inaccurate to use the terms Western and Eastern perspective and context. Andries 17:41, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reasons stated

message: I have requested that the article be protected as well as seek mediation to break the deadlock. --Zappaz 20:17, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That was a miscalculation and I reverted back to your version. Andries 21:30, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested mediation