Talk:Frank Chu

message: Please use -~~~~ to sign your comments. -℘yrop (talk) 18:56, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
We seem no closer to concensus than we were several days ago.  Let's  request mediation on this article.  (Thanks, Pyrop.) -Sorenr 05:28, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I added an OR tag to this page in accordance with Wikipedia policy. The statements regarding Chu's behavior (namely the ones detailing the soothing effects cigarettes have on him) include such sources as "private communication, 2 December 2002" and "“SeenyaRita” commenting on Flickr, August 2005". While you do have sources, they are really based on hearsay and are a clear breach of Wikipedia policy (ibid.) While I like these statements, they are unverifiable, and thus have no place here. Find a newspaper article, television spot, magazine articles...etc with similar content, source it, and include it in the article.--Ringmaster j 15:35, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Original Research

message: === Con ===
I am not trained in psychiatry.  Neither is Sorenr.  Even if we were, it would be foolish for us to attempt an armchair diagnosis based solely on meeting Frank informally and observing his actions and artifacts over a short period of time.  (Sorenr has alluded to having heard the opinion of qualified psychiatrists on the mental health of Frank, but provides no detail - an assertion that "Dr. so-and-so says that he thinks Frank has such-and-such" would be of more help on this page than "the last person to edit this page claims that Frank is schizophrenic.")
Nonetheless, we both have been caught sticking our ignorant fingers in the DSM and have expressed our lay opinions on the subject.  For what it's worth: That Frank's descriptions of reality are, if held in earnest, bizarre delusions, is not controversial.  Neither is that his behavior is extremely eccentric.  That these delusions and this behavior rises to the level of harm necessary for an illness label like "schizophrenia" to apply, however, is controversial.
The DSM seems to have a three-part test for schizophrenia: Part one concerns the type of symptoms, part two concerns their effect on the life of person who exhibits them, part three concerns their duration.  The diagnostician must say "yes" to all three parts of the test before saying that the person is exhibiting schizophrenia.
According to the Schizophrenia page, "[t]o be diagnosed as having schizophrenia, a person must display [among other things] Social/occupational dysfunction: For a significant portion of the time since the onset of the disturbance, one or more major areas of functioning such as work, interpersonal relations, or self-care, are markedly below the level achieved prior to the onset."
Sorenr and I differ as to whether Frank is thriving or suffering in his current occupation and lifestyle.  I consider him very successful and innovative; Sorenr believes that he suffers under the weight of his delusions.  But in any case, we know little to nothing about Frank "prior to the onset" of this occupation and lifestyle, and so have no way to affirm this necessary test.
=== Pro === 
For 18 months I was the Significant Other of a doctor of psychology who worked at the Napa State Mental Hospital.  Her direct experiences with Frank led her to conclude that Frank's unusual behavior was most likely to be caused by schizophrenia.  Other acquaintences with professional provider-side experience in mental health care, one trained as a psychiatric counselor, another with a past career as an orderly at a psychiatric ward for schizophrenics, also share the opinion that Frank is schizophrenic.
Frank's own (heavily embellished and admittedly unreliable) accounts of past experiences hint at formal diagnosis by the appropriate authorities.  While it would obviously be preferable for Frank's doctor to write a full formal diagnosis, doctor/patient confidentiality would forbid such a statement.  Even this unattainable standard would not be sufficiently convincing to Moorlock because he opposes not Frank's diagnosis, but any application of the term itself:
:I just am skeptical of psychiatric labels, particularly those given in fly-by and or untrained and completely speculative diagnoses, but even those given in officially-sanctioned settings by officially-designated label-attachers.
Occupational dysfunction is not essential for a valid schizophrenic diagnosis.  John Nash remains a well-known schizophrenic despite an astonishingly successful career by any standard.  Frank's resume illustrates a career thrown into occupational dysfunction by the onset of his disease: a former truck driver and student of Business Administration is, by his own accounting, only able to earn 10% of the funds required to support himself.  This is the textbook definition of occupational dysfunction, public recognition and free Budweisers notwithstanding.
==== Addendum ====
The one source that you cited for the claim that "Formally accredited psychologists, professional mental health counselors, and former psychiatric orderlies who have met Chu in person share the speculation that his behavior is most likely to be the result of schizophrenia" today removed the cite, saying in part "I've never met Frank" and scoldingly referring to the "Wikipedia:Verifiability" page. -Moorlock 17:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment Without Sufficient Training 

message: For 18 months I was the Significant Other of a doctor of psychology who worked at the Napa State Mental Hospital.  Her direct experiences with Frank led her to conclude that Frank's unusual behavior was most likely to be caused by schizophrenia.  Other acquaintences with professional provider-side experience in mental health care, one trained as a psychiatric counselor, another with a past career as an orderly at a psychiatric ward for schizophrenics, also share the opinion that Frank is schizophrenic.
Frank's own (heavily embellished and admittedly unreliable) accounts of past experiences hint at formal diagnosis by the appropriate authorities.  While it would obviously be preferable for Frank's doctor to write a full formal diagnosis, doctor/patient confidentiality would forbid such a statement.  Even this unattainable standard would not be sufficiently convincing to Moorlock because he opposes not Frank's diagnosis, but any application of the term itself:
:I just am skeptical of psychiatric labels, particularly those given in fly-by and or untrained and completely speculative diagnoses, but even those given in officially-sanctioned settings by officially-designated label-attachers.
Occupational dysfunction is not essential for a valid schizophrenic diagnosis.  John Nash remains a well-known schizophrenic despite an astonishingly successful career by any standard.  Frank's resume illustrates a career thrown into occupational dysfunction by the onset of his disease: a former truck driver and student of Business Administration is, by his own accounting, only able to earn 10% of the funds required to support himself.  This is the textbook definition of occupational dysfunction, public recognition and free Budweisers notwithstanding.
==== Addendum ====
The one source that you cited for the claim that "Formally accredited psychologists, professional mental health counselors, and former psychiatric orderlies who have met Chu in person share the speculation that his behavior is most likely to be the result of schizophrenia" today removed the cite, saying in part "I've never met Frank" and scoldingly referring to the "Wikipedia:Verifiability" page. -Moorlock 17:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pro 

message: The one source that you cited for the claim that "Formally accredited psychologists, professional mental health counselors, and former psychiatric orderlies who have met Chu in person share the speculation that his behavior is most likely to be the result of schizophrenia" today removed the cite, saying in part "I've never met Frank" and scoldingly referring to the "Wikipedia:Verifiability" page. -Moorlock 17:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addendum 

message: If I were king, I'd delete the speculation about schizophrenia from this entry.  I doubt it was made by anyone capable of making such a diagnosis; and the diagnosis of "schizophrenia" is of such tenuous explanatory value anyway that it mostly amounts to a pejorative in this context.  For all we know, Frank is operating less as someone who is mentally ill and compelled by chemical delusions, and more as an extremely dedicated and persistently in-character performance artist.  Best to give him the benefit of the doubt either way.
-Moorlock
----
Have you ever talked with Frank Chu?  I've spent several hours with him.  I've bought him beers and driven him home to his house.  I've informally introduced him to a close friend who is a doctor of psychiatry, who gave him the informal diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia.  (She can't give him an official diagnosis because he's not officially her patient.)  It is beyond the doubt of the dozens of mutual acquaintences of Frank's and mine that, dispite my fondness for him, he is formally, clinically mentally ill.  Frank himself has mentioned things which hint at a formal diagnosis in the past.
-Sorenr 20:36, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "The DSM provides diagnostic categories and criteria for their diagnoses.  The proper use of these requires clinical training, knowledge and skills to apply them.  Their use by people without this background is likely to lead to an inappropriate application of diagnoses." - DSM cautionary statement
----
I've altered the phrasing to include "most of the symptoms of schizophrenia", which is far more generous than "all but one sub-aspect of one symptom are beyond debate" which is also accurate.  The DSM's cautionary note is acknowleged: that's why the first sentence is carefully phrased to avoid formal diagnosis.
The "Social/Occupational dysfunction" heading requires that Frank be dysfunctional in "one or more major areas of functioning such as..."  "Such as" indicates an open definition encompassing any serious dysfunction, not exclusively occupational dysfunction.  The areas for dysfunction therefore include, but are not limited to, decreases in achievement at work, interpersonal relations, or self-care.  Not all schizophrenics are occupationally dysfunctional, not all occupationally dysfunctional people are schizophrenics.
You've added yet another section to remind everyone who might be arriving late to the party that Schizophrenia is a disease with negative connotations.  It surprises me that you're so comfortable throwing that label around and emphasizing the negative, given your opposition to those things.  It doesn't offend me, although if you added "Some people think badly about black people but I think black people are fine" to Barack Obama's page you might raise some eyebrows.  (His page mentions without controversay that "He is the only African-American currently serving in the U.S. Senate" although some people question whether "African-american" is a meaningful term.)  -Sorenr 23:16, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Frank Chu's perception and interpretation of the world and his eccentric behavior are consistent with most symptoms of schizophrenia
I still think this is misleading.  Although delusions and thought disorder are symptoms of schizophrenia, they are also symptoms of a number of other disorders and without additional evidence there isn't a good reason to say "consistent with" schizophrenia as opposed to any of the other disorders.  Saying "ouch" is consistent with having been hit in the head with a rock, but does not itself alone constitute evidence that one has been hit in the head with a rock.
As the schizophrenia page says, "It is worth noting that many of the positive or psychotic symptoms may occur in a variety of disorders and not only in schizophrenia."  I tried to address this by saying that Frank's expressions resemble those of people who have been diagnosed with schizophrenia, which is true, though a little round-about and squirrely.  Still, it is preferable to your construction of "consistent with," which implies too much.-Moorlock 06:35, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Past Discussion 

message: I think dementia doesn't really characterize what you're after.  When I read the entry on dementia (and other sources) I see the term used to describe the a steadily worsening cognitive deficit such as is caused by a degenerative brain disease.  What I think you want to describe is something more like a chemical imbalance that causes disordered thinking - not necessarily one that is steadily worsening or leading to progressive cognitive decay.  (Disclaimer: this shouldn't suggest that I believe the evidence is enough to support either of these conclusions, or that either of us are qualified to diagnose him of such things from a distance.)-Moorlock 19:33, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dementia

message: Do we really need the Sign texts section to be a list of anything that's ever appeared on one of Frank Chu's signs? It seems like examples of a few should be enough, along with a short analysis of common elements; listing all of them is just overwhelming and doesn't get the point across well. -℘yrop (talk) 18:11, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
I think more is better. It's interesting. gohlkus 22:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sign texts 

message: Since the most recent bay to Breakers, the flickr tag for Frank is mostly full of impersonators. I would like to suggest a new flickr tag or removal of the link. Of the 285 pictures only a small number are of Frank. There is a tag "realfrankchu" but it has only been used by a single user. --Paul E. Ester 18:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Flickr

message: User:Elmarkos made a few changes, including adding these bits:
* "Chu also adamantly claims that one of the sole reasons for the existence of the CIA is to guard the "top secret sex orgies" carried out by US presidents, according to Chu each president has up to 50 "wives" for this purpose."
* "He has told those who will listen that he was the empress of China in the 17th century but was exiled to the US by the CIA."
Could someone provide a source for these claims?  This is the first I've heard either of these. -Moorlock 01:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New additions from Elmarkos

message: (removed from main body 17 Oct. 2005)
 ALMA
 12 GALAXIES
 TRIGOGONIC SCANDAL
 PBS NEWS HOUR: BILLIONAIRE
 DECTROGONIC
 SKEPTICAL
 PREEMPTIVE MISCREANTS
 NICKERSON
 12 GALAXIES
 QUADROGONIC HIBERNATION[S]
 ECONOMIST
 TECHNIGONIC
 EXACERBATED CHARISMATIC
 ABERRATIONS
 CRONKITE
 12 GALAXIES
 VIXTREXONICUL STEROIDS
 PBS: YASKRERUNITOL COVERAGE
 PSYCHROZENIKUL
 DILIGENT TRIVIALIZING
 OPTHAMOLOGISTS
 WHOOLEY
 12 GALAXIES
 PSYCHROZENICAL DISSENSIONS
 ABC: ILTROKETCAL COVERAGE
 STALTZORXUNIKEL
 PREINCARNATE AGNOSTICISM
 GNOSTICISM
 HEISLEY
 12 GALAXIES
 AGOZANICAL EXORCISTS
 NBC: ILTRUXONIKEL COVERAGE
 COXGARONICIL
 EVOCATIVE PALATIMILL
 MESOTHELIOMA
 BRIDGEPOINTE
 12 GALAXIES
 MUROTUNIXEL REPERCUSSIONS (sic)
 KBHK: XASKUTANEKOL
 PSOKITENUCOL
 COMMEMORATIVE CONTENTIOUS
 EXHORTATIONS
 TROSKY
 12 GALAXIES
 ALPHOGONIC POLICE BRUTALITY
 ABC NEWS: UP FRONT
 ZENOGONIC
 BOISTEROUS INSINUATED
 ATTRITIONS
 CLEMENS
 12 GALAXIES
 XASKOZETICUL DIPLOMACY
 PBS: YUXTROTONIKEL COVERAGE
 WEXKORHYTORIC
 EXTEMPORANEOUS IMPUGNING
 CARNIVORES
 SHEFFIELD
 12 GALAXIES
 QUINTRONIC GENOCIDES
 CNN HEADLINE NEWS
 SEXOTRONIC
 METICULOUS
 INCINERATED APPROPRIATIONS
 BRIDGEPOINTE
 12 GALAXIES
 MUROTUNIKEL REPERCUSSIONS
 KBHK: XASKUTANEKOL
 PSOKITENUCOL
 CUMBERSOME CONTENTIOUS EMULATIONS
 IMPEACH FAIRMOUNT
 12 Galaxies
 Guiltied
 WITH QUADROLOGICAL
 Rocket STATIONS
 MASSACHUSETTS
 12 GALAXIES
 QUINTRONIC CRIMINALS
 TIME MAGAZINE: STAR,
 HEXTROTRONIC
 OSCILLATING
 EBULLIENT INOCULATIONS
 CARLSTADT
 12 GALAXIES
 BOTRUKONITEL RACISM
 KDTV: FEXTROTANIKUL COVERAGE
 GAMMATUNOKEL
 EXTRATERRESTRIAL
 PETAFIABLE ABDICATIONS
 GEPHARDT
 12 GALAXIES
 QUOKLOCHITICIL DETRIMENTATIONS
 KICU: DICHUKITECHAL COVERAGE
 ULKUKATICHOL
 ESCHATOLOGICAL
 CONTEMPLATED AGNOSTICS
 MEDTOX
 12 GALAXIES
 BETATRONIC CONSTANTANEOUSED
 GRAND THEFT
 AGAINST THE UNIVERSE
 ZEGNATRONIC
 HYDROGEN COUNTER PARTS
* March 2005
 NORDEN
 12 GALAXIES
 JOXKRORADICUL EPIPHANY
 NBC: GAXKROZETICAL COVERAGE
 KEXTROCRETICAL
 SANCTITY PROSPERITY
 DILIGENCE
* May 2005
 SCHKADE
 12 GALAXIES
 BEXCROLETIKUL UNJUSTICES
 BBC: KOTROPREDICAMENTED COVERAGE
 ZEKGROPENTIAL
 ERUPTED DASTARDLY
 ELATIONS
* September 2005
 HENDRICKSON
 12 GALAXIES
 KYDROMENICOL IMMINENCE
 ABC:WETROMETICULUS COVERAGE
 NUKROHENICAL
 EGOTISTICAL ATTONEMENTS
 ETERNITY
====Impressive Work====
This is such a complete bio...there is more here than the bios of much more famous people. 68.193.245.18 (talk) 23:53, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sign texts 

message: This is such a complete bio...there is more here than the bios of much more famous people. 68.193.245.18 (talk) 23:53, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Impressive Work

message: I have just removed a swath of unsourced and poorly sourced information from this article. Sources that I considered particularly poor were:
*"Zagnatronic outburst" sourced to a private email - fails WP:RS dismally
*"Frank believes that..." sourced to another email of unknown origin - same here
*"that he had just met Jimmy Carter" sourced to a now defunct Twitter site - and here
*Various interpretations of his signage sourced to flickr photos - essentially original research, also poorly sourced
*"My husband's secretary..." sourced to a comment on a flick photo - also very poorly sourced
and so on. It is beyond belief that the article has existed in this state for so long. Before any material is added back, it must be rigorously sourced to some reliable publication. Kevin (talk) 08:17, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  BLP nightmare 

message: This page shows an individual expression of a real social mechanic performed by a successful non central character of a group dynamic. What this man speaks about is a social structure that can be built, described and is perfectly rational and logical though undesirable. To any sane reader it should be obvious the protests use language metaphors and can be construed true in different ways simultaneously for sets of individuals. Because of the use of the word galaxies, the reference to this article comes from spatial SETI research, but the terms makes perfect metaphorical sense applied to industries/corporations/nations and the individuals made famous within each of them. Similar considerations for the term alien. This talk page invites more to discuss the character than to discuss the exposition, but this ambiguation between astrophysical research and social metaphor should be made explicitly evident in the text.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.150.152 (talk) 19:58, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Real story metaphor 

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thread_title:  External links modified