Talk:Tony Cliff

message: It is alleged that Cliff never acknowledged that the theory of the Permanent Arms Economy originated with the Shachtmanite Workers Party. I understand that the origin of this allegation is Jim Higgins, who made many telling points and was always highly amusing, but wasn't always strictly accurate. I have in front of me International Socialism, No.47, April/May 1971, which contains on page 27 a quarter-page ad for the IS Bookshop. This issue of the magazine also contains part II of Jim Higgins' keynote article Revolutionary Trade Unionism.
Half of the ad is taken up by a puff for The Permanent War Economy by T.N. Vance - the text reads: "This book contains a selection of articles taken fromThe New International and Labour Action on the permanent war economy. It presents a serious and original Marxist analysis of late or neo-capitalism. Vance definitively rejects the notion that capitalism has solved its economic problems and sharply criticises those socialists who base themselves on other problems such as 'life styles'. His work is of importance to all interested in Marxist economics."
There is a similar but shorter ad in International Socialism, No.49, Autumn 1971, p.27. Both Cliff and Higgins are listed as members of the editorial board for this issue. For this reason I'm changing the allegation.--Mia-etol (talk) 15:26, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Permanent Arms Economy

message: I am deleting the word "revolutionary" because the groups that Tony Cliff was associated to never made any progress towards a revolution. The same criterion of not being a revolutionary CAN NOT be applied to Marx (as an anonymous user did), as Marxist theory was followed all over the world to successfully carry out several socialist and new-democratic revolutions. Srijon (talk) 14:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Moreover, Srijon appears to be a stereotypical left-sectarian in accusing Cliff of not being a Marxist when Cliff viewed himself exactly as such.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.207.246.122 (talk) 17:37, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Revolutionary

message: Why did he change his name from Yigael to Ygael, is Yigael more zionist then Ygael?--JK the unwise 12:27, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The information here seems inconsistent with the autobiograpy. "Ygael (Gluckstein). This was taken from a John Wayne type Zionist hero who murdered a number of Arabs. At the age of 13 I changed my name from Ygael to Ygal. Seeing that in Hebrew there are no vowels but only consonants the two names are spelt in exactly the same way, so it was easy to do. The root of the name Ygal is this: Moses sent 12 spies from the 12 tribes of Israel to go to Canaan to spy out the land. Two said they would like to settle there; ten said they would not. The first of those who did not want to settle was called Ygal."--NHSavage 19:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Name Change

message: The clause "Fourth International held at the time that the 'glacis' states were already state capitalist" seems doubtful to me. Wasn't the position that the USSR was attempting to maintain and restore capitalism in the Glasis states, and that it was only after the Marshall Plan that the plan changed: the Peoples' Democracies were established and only then did the nationalisations begin. If the FI had adopted such a poition, I would have expected to see it in the Second World Congress positions, for example...--DuncanBCS 11:54, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  FI state capitalist?? 

message: I've just removed a link to the 'British Jews' category on the grounds that Cliff was not British (nor a practising Jew, for that matter). It occurs to me that there may be grounds for removing the 'British Trotskyists' categorisation too, but I thought it best to see what other editors thought first - I don't think this is as clear-cut. Guy Hatton 22:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the British Trotskyists category is useful, as he spent most of his life in activity in Britain.  Should a Palestinian Trotskyists category be created, then I'd suggest that he be placed in both.  If a Palestinian communists category is created, this might also be a useful placeholder. Warofdreams talk 01:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's pretty much what I was thinking :-) Guy Hatton 07:27, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  British? 

message: Fine job thus far on Cliff's biography.  One thing that I would consider missing is a mention of the theory of deflected permanent revolution. In his Trotskyism after Trotsky, Cliff cites state capitalism, the permanent arms economy, and deflected permanent revolution as the three theoretical pillars of the International Socialist tradition.  These three theories offer explanantions of the three key post-WWII developments that defied Trotsky's pre-WWII predictions (respectively, the political stability and imperial expansion of the Stalinist regimes, western capitalism's long post-war economic boom, and the wave of national liberation movements (Cuba, et. al.) that achieved some form of "success" without being led by the working class).
I personally know nothing of the intrigues regarding who originated which theory, but Cliff and the IS organizations clearly took "ownership" of these three theories, and staked their political reputations and futures on developing, explaining, and defending them.  All three should be part of Cliff's biography.  Of course, state capitalism should be featured the most prominently, given how it became the sharpest distinction between the IS tradition and other left groups, and the key role it played in the ability of IS groups to grow significantly post-1989 while the vast majority of the left was thrown into deep crisis by the collapse of the Stalinist regimes.
I would propose a prominent section in this article titled something like "Contributions to Marxist Theory" with bulleted synopses of these three theories.  State capitalism ought to be listed first, and, I think, merit a sentence in the introduction.  I'm very new to WP editing, but willing to take on some work in developing this article.Randy 02:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is covered more than adequatly in the SWP's entry. So just link to that. If we duplicate too mauch, then the duplicates can diverge. --Duncan 13:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deflected Permanent Revolution 

message: Is there a reason why the font size changes halfway through the article? It's very distracting. --Filippo Argenti 16:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This doesn't seem to happen for me. What browser are you using? (I'm using firefox).--JK the unwise 09:55, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Font Size 

message: The article is not clear when Gluckstein started using the name 'Tony Cliff'. Could someone elucidate please? Philip Cross (talk) 21:16, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Using the catalogue of Abebooks, the 1957 work on Mao appears to be the last time he published as 'Ygael Gluckstein' and the 1959 book on Rosa Luxemburg the first use of the pen name 'Tony Cliff'. In trying to rationalize use of the two names in the article, I have used these two dates as a means of deciding which form to use. Philip Cross (talk) 23:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pen name 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: He is described as speaking English with a "Palestinian" accent. As there is no Palestinian language that should be either an "Arabic" or "Hebrew" accent. What was his first language? 51.148.170.8 (talk) 51.148.170.8 (talk) 10:29, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accent