Talk:J. R. R. Tolkien/Archive 1

message: >Tolkien and Edith had four children: John Francis Reuel (November 17, 1917),
My copy of _A Biography_ by Humphrey Carpenter says that it is November 16. Is ther any correction or other source of birthday? --RedDragon 03:59, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Biography

message: Artists who have found inspiration in Tolkien's works include... — This list could go on forever (eventually including everybody who put his drawing of Gandalf on an internet archive), without any direct relevance to Tolkien's person. I think we should restrict it to artists who were known to Tolkien and had his approval (Baynes, Swann,...)  - dab 15:20, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Alan Lee and John Howe as well, as they are currently the best known Tolkien illustrators... Ausir 16:59, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

text: Well, yes, and any notable ones beside. But, imho, under some middle-earth heading, Middle-Earth Illustrators, Artists inspired by J. R. R. Tolkien or something. This article is supposed to be about the author himself. His work may not be clearly separable from his person, but people inspired by his work (and not having met him personally) are at least two steps removed (or, let me put it this way: "Tolkien Illustrators" rarely illustrate Tolkien himself ;). dab 17:50, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

text: I'm not against cutting the list of artists from the JRRT main page - but it looks like what we had was now just cut away and thrown away :-( (with the exception of Baynes and Swann)
Jhi 21:06, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

text: Oops, never mind.  Found the Works inspired by J. R. R. Tolkien.
Jhi 21:11, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: that's right; but I'm not too sure about my present version yet. Mostly, I fear I'm citing Letters too extensively. Feel free to improve it. My point was that the section should reflect Tolkien's stance towards derivative works. dab 08:51, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: derivative works

message: I know the picture with the pipe (actually, the 2nd one, not the one included in this article) is the best known picture of Tolkien ever, but what is its copyright status? Given the Wikipedia copyright policy, wouldn't it be better to replace it with a public domain 1916 picture of JRRT (Tolkien 1916.jpg)? Ausir 17:07, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The picture

message: I am glad for Draconiszeta's edits, they do improve the article's style. But: JRRT's mother was not born in Suffield. She was a born Suffield. I had just changed that back from another well-meaning "correction". Please check your facts. 
*http://www.google.com/search?&q=Mabel+Tolkien+Suffield 
dab 08:59, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Mabel Suffield

message: I support the removal of the list of languages JRRT purportedly had "varying fluency" in. The "Languages" section is the weakest we have in the article now, and somebody should rewrite it, so that someday we can get this to FA status. Links are still piling up, and what is this strange "publications" table at the bottom? We already give a detailed bibliography. Categories are also getting worse again, "People with asteroids named after them", "Polyglots" -- hello?? How about :Category:People who liked to have a pint or two at the local pub after work? As far as I know, Tolkien was not a notable polyglot. He was a philologist/linguist, sure, and he could read Latin and Greek and German I suppose, but there were not many languages he was fluent in. dab (ᛏ) 17:46, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "Languages"

message: Looking at the links in general, I cannot help the impression that some cleanup is required. This article is bulky as it is, and it is about JRRT the author and philologist. Ardalambion is an excellent site, but it is pertinent to Languages of Middle-Earth, not to this article. Likewise, links pertaining to the movies belong on The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy. dab (ᛏ) 10:36, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My pruning may have been a bit severe, but please argue before re-inclusion of links. The internet is rife with "Tolkien sites", and our aim cannot be to give an overview of them, we should only add those which are (a) pertinent to the article (in this case the person of JRRT), and (b) add to the information already present in the article. Any site selfdescribing as a "LoTR site" (tolkienonline.com) has no place here, it should be featured on Lord of the Rings. Also, this article needs a "see also" section, referring to the main related articles (only the major ones, or it'll just be reiterating the bibliography section). dab (ᛏ) 11:11, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "endorsement" in the sense of quality, not point of view. There's a difference. Sure, feel free to re-insert the link (I was only asking you to refrain from editing where you are personally involved, you are perfectly free to edit the remaining links!). My impression was that it was only dealing with Middle-Earth material, and would be better suited as an external link to Middle-Earth (c.f. the note I put to the top of the links section), but if the site is so eminent, I will not oppose its inclusion here. Ardalambion may also be suitable to be re-inserted: It is already on the Languages article, but it does have some biographical relevance (in that early stages of the languages are discussed). There is no Yahoo buyout. Sure, Yahoo may be in a position to blackmail WP, at some point in the future (but let them try!). At the moment, they have no influence whatsoever on content. dab (ᛏ) 18:32, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: reviewing links section

message: ok, there could in principle be a zillion links under that heading. If we want to avoid things piling up, we need guidelines. I suggest, only major directories. Why is there a link to an interview with this movie maker? Let's say we link to sites devoted to cataloguing art derived from Tolkien's works, either music, images/movies or  fanfiction etc. dab (ᛏ) 08:11, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It was not my intention to cause you emotional harm. Sorry! I have reverted my offense.--Wiglaf 15:47, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Jhi, I know exactly what you mean and I know several articles like that. However, there are many other articles that treat other subjects that are not so much part of popular culture. Ignore it and write on other articles :).--Wiglaf 16:03, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Jhi, I apologize for removing the links. I was in a "clean up" mindset, not in an aggessive one. By all means put them back. I do think WP has its problems, but you should understand that the aim is not for the articles to be "finished" at some point. It's ok for them to keep evolving even after they reach WP:FA status. They should just be kept from deteriorating, but changing to and fro is ok. Btw, I am quite happy with the article as it stands now. The only section in dire need of attention left is the "languages" one. Then we'll need to do some pruning, but with a little effort, we are not too far from WP:FAC now. dab (ᛏ) 09:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I mean, you say, WP is doomed, but look at what we have here: it is I think a very fair article on JRRT. I do not think a lot of similarly good articles with similar scope are online (there's , but that's also an exceptionally fair article, I guess). So, while WP may be stressful, it actually does work! dab (ᛏ) 09:53, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: btw, long articles usually have a "References" and a "Further reading" section. Resources linked only because they are mentioned in the text go to the "References" section. We could try a similar approach. My concern is that if we have a link that looks motley, passers-by will keep adding links to their own sites, and the link section will be a jungle in a matter of months. dab (ᛏ) 09:56, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 'derivative art'

message: I remember hearing Tolkien write on the subject of Esperanto (perhaps in one of his letters), saying that it was never popular because the language lacked any underlying culture or mythos to give it a feeling of depth, a sentiment highly appropriate for him, given that in his inventing of languages he always desired to create a people who would have reason to speak them.
Compared with the article A Philologist on Esperanto, I find the two positions rather unconnected, although not necessarily incompatible.
This mentioned for another's reference.
In the Biography section, it is said that due to Tolkien's Christianity his works contain much Christian symbolism.
I posit that his works do not actually contain Christian symbolism, but rather mythic elements inspired by, one might say, the same underlying spirit of Christianity.  As he himself said in a letter (paraphrased), "The Lord of the Rings is a deeply Christian work for not being overtly so."
This I already edited, and I believe my edit better reflects his writings.
In the Writing section, I have two contentions.
Firstly, The Fall of Numenor is similar to Atlantis, but I read was actually derived from what might be called an Atlanean Psychosis or Complex of Tolkien, wherein his perportedly visionary mind was occasionally beset by images of a land falling under waves.  This subsided after his writing of the story, whereby the expression was a release.
I do not know how to incorporate this into the Wikipedia article, or whether it is pertinant.
Secondly, the Bible is mentioned as a source for names.  This I find ridiculous, but am hesitant to remove the claim because I am not quite certain.  Would the author of this statement, made in this revision by Michael Martinez if I am not mistaken, please validate?
Oh, by the way, I knew the article was rather long, and when I made my edit Wikipedia told me so explicitly.
:the "source" of the names is a difficult question (excepting the obvious cases of Eddaic and Old English names) — names that also appear in the Bible, such as "Erech" should be treated with care, and it should not be claimed Tolkien just adopted them, unless he can be shown to have explicitly stated that he did. dab (ᛏ) 08:45, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: btw, why did you remove the Shippey lecture, Wiglaf? I think it is a good article. dab (ᛏ) 08:47, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Jhi hit the roof complaining about the changeability of the article and that the information was "already covered". Since you support its inclusion, I'll reinsert it.--Wiglaf 10:57, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Esperanto, Christian symbolism, Atlantis, and the Bible as a source? 

message: I think this is reasonably close to FA now; is anyone into going through it in detail and shaping it up for WP:FAC? dab (ᛏ) 05:32, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: FA?

message: Where can I find a definitive explaination of what happens to Maia after they are killed? Throughout Tolkien's work there are many examples of Maia losing their existence at the hands of either Elves, Ainur (Vala), and even Mortals (Gollum/Frodo), but it is never mentioned that they too travel to the Halls of Mandos as the Children of Iluvatar (The Elves) do. Dead Maiar include the following:
* Saruman
* Sauron
* Balrogs
* Shelob
:It depends on how these Ainur were incarnated. The "natural" state for Ainur is that to them bodies are just wrappings, "clothes": they can incarnate themselves at will, but this is not their natural form.
:In the case of the "evil" Ainur, including Melkor/Morgoth, Sauron, and the Balrogs, these had become permanently incarnated either by choice or by consequence. This meant that a large part of their "essence" (for lack of a better term) had been distilled into that form, and by the destruction of it they permanently lost the power to reincarnate. Sauron survived his first "death" because he had distilled his power into the Ring, and therefore was able to draw on that to reincarnate. As long as the Ring survived, so did his spirit. The Balrogs, and Melkor, did not have that luxury: upon their "death" they were left extremely weakened (and in Melkor's case even banished from Arda). Their spirits probably survived in a powerless form, but would have dwindled ("faded") over time.
:In the case of the Istari (Wizards), these had been incarnated not by their own evil will, but by decree of Eru Ilúvatar. Their nature was in fact changed (since permanent incarnation is not a natural state for Ainur), and we can probably assume that their fate was made similar to that of the other incarnates: on death they were called by Mandos, and had to venture to his halls.
:Saruman died a violent death, and had previously resisted Gandalf's command to step down. Since Gandalf was acting as a direct and knowing agent of the Valar, this denial was non-trivial. Saruman would have been called to Mandos, but as he had become corrupted to the core, he would have denied this call. This would have left him to the same fate as the other fallen Ainur, namely to be left wandering as a powerless spirit, fading over time until nothing was left.
:As for Gandalf, his case is different, because Eru Ilúvatar stepped in at Gandalf's death. Gandalf was physically reïncarnated but at the same time increased in knowledge and power: Gandalf the White was not of the same order as Gandalf the Grey.
:Much of the above is of course speculation, as there are few definite answers that can be given. Take a look at the articles of the individual characters, as well as fëa and hröa. Jordi·✆ 00:26, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What happens after an Immortal's Death? 

message: According to the article, "Tolkien's first civilian job after World War I was at the Oxford English Dictionary (among others, he initiated the entries wasp and walrus).". However the article on the Oxford English Dictionary states that Henry Bradley "died in 1923, having done E-G, L-M, S-Sh, St, and W-We.". It also states that Tolkien was a researcher, researching etymologies of words "between Waggle to Warlock" (This sounds very anecdotal - "Warlock" indeed - how Middle-Earth!). So unless someone can correct me on this, wouldn't it be better to say Tolkien worked on the entries for the words "wasp" and "walrus" rather than initiated them? DavidFarmbrough 15:43, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I shall have to check my references. Rich Farmbrough 22:54, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  O.E.D.Work 

message: The "Books about Tolkien" Section is really broad, and I think it functions to point readers in some directions if they want to find out more information about this topic (J.R.R. Tolkien). In most entries, this section is called "Further Reading," to set it off as exploratory reading, and the information is not part of the entry proper. Right now, the section seems to function as a part of the Tolkien entry. For example, in the same way Tolkien's own work is catalogued, the entry attempts to catalogue all the books about Tolkien. I am not sure if this is necessary or entirely relevant, but I do think these books would work nicely as a "Further Reading" section.
--Malecasta 22:51, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: agreed. And there is a similar problem about 'See Also' as well. That part just looks random, with links to 'The Hobbit' and even 'Middle Earth'. I don't like the policy of having everything even remotely related to the article in 'See Also' section, unless they have some useful content to add to the article under the light. Middle Earth might be Tolkien's greatest invention, but that article does not provide any information about Tolkien. Greenleaf 09:50, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you've highlighted a great problem here. Overall, this article is really big, and "See Also" is a symptom of this problem. One thing that may help is that "See Also" is not a CATEGORY to list everying remotely related to this topic. The "See Also" should specifically provide links to topics that "add to" the article, like you say. I think, however, this article needs to be clearly about one thing so we can determine what is relevant in the "See Also" and what is not. --Malecasta 06:24, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further Reading? 

message: It would help to specify this entry to the person J.R.R. Tolkien, and it would shorten this topic a bit. Plus, Works by Tolkien could easily stand on its own. Comments? --Malecasta 08:01, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess no one would disagree about getting rid of the long list of wiki- and external links, if not for other reason, because that makes the article really ugly. May be once we do that as a 'List of Tolkien Works' style article, one can carefully prune some of extraneous details from the article proper as well. Greenleaf 08:48, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok. How many would disagree to moving Tolkien's Bibliogaphy to a different page? Or giving up all that in favor of a category, like this :Category:Novels by Stephen King --Malecasta 09:35, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: um. what's wrong about the bibliography? Or ugly? I think it is beautiful. The German article, for example, has FA status, and basically copied its bibliography from here. Of course, all works by Tolkien have their own pages, down to individual lectures and poems and other snippets (see :Category:Texts by J. R. R. Tolkien), but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be listed here. We already moved Poems by J. R. R. Tolkien to a subpage; the German FA lists the poems in the article body. Of course the bibliography should come at the end of the article about an author, but I don't see why it should be exported. It could be shortened, maybe, or the posthumous publications could be removed as not really published by Tolkien himself. Baad 08:29, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Give Works by Tolkien its own Page? 

message: I am currently participating in a contest at Universal Studios Florida which ends on Halloween night. One of the clues is in a foreign language which I BELIEVE may have Old Norse or Tolkien roots. In doing an Internet search I came across your name and I thought that perhaps that you might be able to assist me. The clue is in an audio file.
There are two ways that you may listen to the audio file.The first is the "fun" way, which is going to the Halloween Horror Nights website and doing the following. The site itself is quite amazing.
1) Go to: http://themeparks.universalstudios.com/orlando/hhn/?__dest=hhn.OFFER_right_1 
2) Click on the book in the upper right hand corner (Next to FAQ's) 
3) Click on the skull in the bookcase 
4) Click on the large skull at the upper right hand of map. It is here that you will hear the audio file.
The second way is to click on the link below for the file which was saved by someone else trying to make the translation. This is probably the best way to listen to the chant as you can start and stop it.
Http://www.nicksvideo.com/chant.zip
Your assistance would be greatly appreciated. In the event that the audio file is not of Old Norse or Tolkien roots, do you have any idea of what language it may be in, and if so would you perhaps know someone who might be able to assist in translation? I have already confirmed that it is not in Latin.
:I don't recognize it as a Tolkien language, although it's worth noting that his are primarily written and not often heard spoken. (Even if they were, there's no reason to expect them to be pronounced correctly.)  Certainly none of his Elvish languages, and I don't think any of the others are well-developed enough to render a random phrase.
:One clue it's not Tolkien is that they didn't bother to use his runes, the Cirth.  Those inscribed on the skull plainly say "Gorewood Forest" in Elder Futhark, which is a genuine old Germanic runic alphabet.  Unfortunately, those familiar with Tolkien's languages aren't necessarily familiar with Old Norse since they're not at all related. TCC (talk) (contribs) 03:06, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation assistance