Talk:Kardashev scale/Archive 3

message: There has been discussion about if the Borg is, or is not, a Type III civilization by the editors here at wikipedia.  While it is nice we discuss this, the man with true knowledge in this field (Dr. Kaku) has stated in various interviews and in his book "Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the 10th Dimension" that the Borg are in-fact a 'true type-III civilization"
Per a transcript of his first interview with Art Bell on Coast to Coast AM back in 1997, Dr. Kaku states:
"...but my point is that for a civilization like a Type-II, um a civilization that can harness the power of a star, like in Star Trek by the way; The Federation of Planets with Captain Kirk and company is a typical Type II civilization.  Uh, the Borg by the way, the enemy of the Federation is a Type III. Uh, that's why Captain Picard fears the Borg so much because they are a genuine Type III galactic civilization." - Dr. Kaku on Coast to Coast AM, 8/22/1997 (excerpt from time code 44:10-44:33)
Concidering the Dr. has stated this in one of his books and in an interview (as well as other interviews but I don't have the time at the moment to find this also find all the references.  I also found that he said this multiple times after the above quote in that interview but for brevity I haven't included them.) , I think we are arguing opinions of editors while the reputable and notable Doctor has already stated this as 'fact'.  
::Edit::
I also wanted to point out for those who wish to argue the point, in Star Trek:Voyager, the voyager was thrown into the Delta Quadrant.  It was stated many times that it would take over 75 years for the crew to get back to the Alpha Quadrant at maximum warp of the ship (Warp 9.997). 
The Borg's first formal contact with Starfleet occurred in 2365 by interference from Q in the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode, "Q Who?". Q transported the Enterprise-D to System FGC-J25, in the deep reaches of the Delta Quadrant just long enough to expose them to the Borg.
The Borg set a course for Earth from the Delta Quadrant.  They were able to cover the same distance in under a year. 
--Brian(view my history)/(How am I doing?) 14:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Calling him the "one of the most intelligent men alive" is a bit over the top, don't you think? Especially when he's going on about how much power the Borg Collective is able to generate, a fictional civilization using fictional technology. A Harvard degree doesn't allow one to read the minds of TV scriptwriters. Does anyone know of any references to episodes, books, or anything else within the Star Trek milieu to indicate what the power generating capacity of the Borg is? That's the only source that can really establish the Kardashevicity of the Borg with certainty, IMO the best we can do with Kaku's comment is a "The Borg are described by some to be K-III" comment. Bryan Derksen 16:59, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

text: An appeal to authority is not necessarily a fallacy.  It is an appeal to an unreliable authority which is fallacious.  If one were to say that there are such things as "wandering black holes", because Michio Kaku said so, it would be a more believable statement than if an arbitrary Wikipedian were cited as saying it.  This appeal to authority is convincing, because Dr. Kaku is an expert in the field that the proposition is concerned with.  However, because Dr. Kaku is an expert of science does not mean that he is an expert of science fiction.  It would be more useful and perhaps more convincing if Gene Roddenberry or one of his successors were to supply an opinion on this matter. 24.17.164.47 12:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As an avid trek fan, I felt the need to throw my two cents in to this debate.  Firstly, it is fallacious to cite Kaku's opinion as fact, since it is only his opinion.  His opinion is certainly informed, but it is still just his consideration.  To say Michio Kaku views and has argued that the Borg are type III is acceptable.  To state the Borg are type III simply based on one man's educated view is quite another, and in my opinion is overreaching.  If you know your trek, you know the Borg have little influence in the Gamma quadrant, and don't appear at all in DS9 apart from flashbacks to Wolf 359.  DS9 is farther into Alpha quadrant territory, so presumably any Borg incursions have been repelled before getting that far.  In addition, There was a point in Voyager when the Voyager entered "Borg space", or rather the region where the Borg have established the beginnings of a type III civilization.  Before entering that region, the Voyager encountered numerous civilizations which appeared to have no contact with the Borg.  In addition, many of the Delta quadrant species featured in the beginning of voyager seemed far less developed than the federation, so it is improbable these cultures outwitted or outgunned the Borg.  In any event, the Borg do not meet basic qualifications of the type III scale, in spite of Kaku's statement.72.92.17.135 (talk) 23:55, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interview with Dr. Kaku 

message: I really like the layout of the article and the flow of the text in the current revision. It is logical, clear and just plain interesting and verfiably accurate. Well done, Sparky! There's always room for improving things, but it is much harder for me to see where this could be done now. Cheers. Alastair Haines (talk) 00:59, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Update

message: I stripped this section from articlespace. Here it is for reference or possibly a seed for a stand-alone list. - Eldereft (cont.) 00:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of fictional civilizations by Kardashev value 

message: Since the article doesn't have very high activity, I have protected the article for 18 hours instead of issuing blocks. Please use this time to discuss the dispute. If either party return to edit warring when the protection is automatically lifted, I will instate a 24 hour block on you both. Seraphim♥Whipp 23:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Article protected

message: "Anti-matter production is still beyond our civilization's ability to utilize as a power source..."
(on how could a civ reach Type 2 section)
Can anti-mater be a power source? 
Using laws of conservation of energy, we would atleast get the same energy used to produce it by colliding it with matter, isnt that right?
--189.102.144.200 (talk) 20:14, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Isnt this mistaken?