Talk:Shen Kuo

message: :GA review (see here for criteria)
#It is reasonably well written.
#:a (prose):  b (MoS): 
#It is factually accurate and verifiable.
#:a (references):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 
#It is broad in its coverage.
#:a (major aspects):  b (focused): 
#It follows the neutral point of view policy.
#:a (fair representation):  b (all significant views): 
#It is stable.
#:
#It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
#:a (tagged and captioned):  b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA):  c (non-free images have fair use rationales): 
#Overall: 
#:a Pass/Fail: 
===Suggestions===
The complaints I am voicing here are pretty much the same as in the last two articles (Su Song and Zhang Heng), with an addtional issue with images.
*You need to indicate the name of the volumes in addition to the number for the Needham references.
*You should add at least two more images if possible.
There are several problems with the prose in a few sections.
*Unlike the other two, this article only has a lot of parantheses in the quotations. Nevertheless, I still think many of these should be removed. I don't think that their removal will affact the integrity of the quotations.
*You are mixing Wade-Giles and Pinyin romanization. The majority of the article is in Pinyin, but you must convert the Wade-Giles into Pinyin before the article is passed. If you need assistance in this regard please let me know, as I can help convert the stuff.
*I also feel that this article is too dependant on large block quotes. I think that the quotes should either be shortened so that they do not comprise the vast majority of The Scientific Writing and Theory sections and Philosophy section, or that these sections could be expanded to reduce their dependance on the quotations. Having the large quotes in the writing section, is in my opinion not an issue, that the topic addresses the writing itself.Zeus1234 04:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I have indicated the names of the Needham volumes, added two more images, fixed many of the parentheses, and along with getting rid of some of the block quotes, provided more extensive prose to explain the ones I decided to keep. I also got rid of any random Wade-giles spelling, although the ones I have decided to keep are from direct quotations of Needham's books, and should not be reworded for sake of faithfulness to the actual quotations.PericlesofAthens 03:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The improvements are good. The article now meritcs GA status. Congratulations!Zeus1234 05:40, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Nomination

message: The complaints I am voicing here are pretty much the same as in the last two articles (Su Song and Zhang Heng), with an addtional issue with images.
*You need to indicate the name of the volumes in addition to the number for the Needham references.
*You should add at least two more images if possible.
There are several problems with the prose in a few sections.
*Unlike the other two, this article only has a lot of parantheses in the quotations. Nevertheless, I still think many of these should be removed. I don't think that their removal will affact the integrity of the quotations.
*You are mixing Wade-Giles and Pinyin romanization. The majority of the article is in Pinyin, but you must convert the Wade-Giles into Pinyin before the article is passed. If you need assistance in this regard please let me know, as I can help convert the stuff.
*I also feel that this article is too dependant on large block quotes. I think that the quotes should either be shortened so that they do not comprise the vast majority of The Scientific Writing and Theory sections and Philosophy section, or that these sections could be expanded to reduce their dependance on the quotations. Having the large quotes in the writing section, is in my opinion not an issue, that the topic addresses the writing itself.Zeus1234 04:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I have indicated the names of the Needham volumes, added two more images, fixed many of the parentheses, and along with getting rid of some of the block quotes, provided more extensive prose to explain the ones I decided to keep. I also got rid of any random Wade-giles spelling, although the ones I have decided to keep are from direct quotations of Needham's books, and should not be reworded for sake of faithfulness to the actual quotations.PericlesofAthens 03:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The improvements are good. The article now meritcs GA status. Congratulations!Zeus1234 05:40, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestions

message: Ok, this is a great article, but the reason it has failed to be promoted for FA status is because one had problem with quotes of Shen's writing being in the article (saying that it added nothing to the article). I completely disagree. However, it just dawned on me, this entire time I could have easily placed all of the quotes in the Dream Pool Essays article that I created. That would have been a reasonable compromise. I will do that now.--PericlesofAthens 23:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's really stupid that one person can entirely derail a nomination. I personally think that while some of the quotes could be moved over, some of them should stay in the article. Zeus1234 00:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a good compromise would be to pare them down a lot, and keep them directly relevant to the subject at hand. (Where's the failed FAC tag? It provides a handy link to the nomination..) --Fang Aili talk 03:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless, all of the quotes have been moved into the Dream Pool Essays article, and any valuable information from the quotes have been converted into prose explanations.--PericlesofAthens 04:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and Fang, the link to the nomination page is hidden in the Good Article tag.--PericlesofAthens 04:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think at least one of the quotes should be put back, just to show how he wrote about scientific subjects. The eclipse quote in particular is quite enlightening. The article was much better before.Zeus1234 04:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, apparently the Featured Article Director (user:Raul654) did not think so or share your sentiment, otherwise the article would have stayed as a candidate for at least an entire week (nominated May 1, booted on May 7).--PericlesofAthens 04:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it failed due to the quote, but rather because I was the only one who supported the article's promotion. Still, a bit bizarre it wasn't kept for longer. I do think that one quote would not hurt the article in any way. Perhaps renominate with one quote, and if people complain, then remove it. It certainly isn't the same as having tons of quotes as before. Zeus1234 06:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Hello Nydas. I changed those sentences you had a problem with, and furthermore reworded an awkward sentence in the "Geological theory" section. However, like you said, this article needs a lot of copyediting review. I think I will call upon the magical League of Copyeditors for this one. Lol. :)--PericlesofAthens 12:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since there's a list of all of the Dream Pool Essays subjects on its own article, they need not be included here (lists like that are generally frowned upon when it comes to FAs anyway). Cliff smith 02:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Very good point, I have kept that list in the Dream Pool Essays article, while deleting it from Shen Kuo's article. The article looks smoother now, too.--PericlesofAthens 03:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just added some more valuable information to Shen's "Career and later life" section, outlining his professional relationship with Wang Anshi and his diplomatic embassy to the Liao Dynasty.--PericlesofAthens 04:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just made some major improvements to the article. Have a look see...--PericlesofAthens 09:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just edited the Scholary achievements section by placing Mathematics into its own sub-section. I am furthermore relieved to say that I believe everything that needs to be in Shen's article is definitely included, and at 49 kilobites, his article is about 1 kilobite shy of being either a bit too long or questionable enough to break up into separate articles (which would be unneccessary)--PericlesofAthens 22:00, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Failed FAC

message: There are too many examples of things being hundreds of years before Europe, especially in the introduction. This is arguably Eurocentric, given that stuff about Newton or whoever won't have 'hundreds of years before China' all over the place.--Nydas(Talk) 15:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. When I edit over a long period of time I really don't notice that type of thing, yet I suppose you are right.--PericlesofAthens 19:17, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I edited one example of what you said, but really, all of the others (and there are only a few as far as I can see) are necessary within understanding context. Such as comparing the intensive astronomical map plotting of planetary motions to the later work of Tycho Brahe (a good comparison).--PericlesofAthens 19:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Btw, Isaac Newton's wiki article is incredibly well-written.--PericlesofAthens 19:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Nydas, I think this is acceptable for cases where things were demonstrably independently discovered in two locations. Similarly, the article about Daimler references Benz. I think if discoveries had been made in Asia after they were made in Europe, we would similarly reference it, and likewise for any other region of the world. It may be true that some of the articles about Tycho Brahe etc. do not fully take into account earlier developments in China. This should be rectified. 82.71.48.158 21:32, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: X hundred years before Europe

message: I just want to say thank you to everyone who supported this article, my very first article brought up to featured article status! It was a pain in the butt and required lots of patience and hard work, but it was worth it. And in the afterlife, Shen Kuo totally owes me. Lol.--PericlesofAthens 19:09, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Featured Article Status

message: Awesome! I'm glad that this article has been chosen to be featured on the main page! I'm also thrilled that my work will be advertised a bit. Lol.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a remarkable piece of work which no doubt will continue to grow and even improve. Hats off to you. Alpheus 04:04, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Today's Featured Article

message: The drawing of Shen Kuo is unreferenced and is apparently based on nothing more than the author's imaginings.  If so, I believe that it is inappropriate to publish this in our encyclopedia.  We should leave the fantasy to the History Channel and stick to the facts -- and if there is no visual record of how he looked, we need to leave it at that.  Madman 03:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not quite. It's based off of a sculpted bust of Shen's head. I wouldn't expect you to know that unless you read the Featured Article Candidate page for this article, so I'll let that slide. Lol.--Pericles of AthensTalk 04:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If it is based on a bust of Shen Kuo, it should say that somewhere, describing when the bust was created as well.  We need to reference images just like we reference words.  Thanks, Madman 04:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

text: The bust clearly looks modern. The portrait sculpture was I think completely unknown in China at this date.  We should caption the drawing "modern artist's impression" or similar, and not in a note. Johnbod 21:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added "modern artist's impression" to the caption.  Sorry, but we need to be straightforward.  Madman 23:45, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good. 82.71.48.158 01:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ahistorical drawing??? 

message: The picture comes from this source here: www.phil.pku.edu.cn, or the Department of Philosophy at the University of Peking. The specific image is found here.
Unfortunately they do not date the bust, but it looks modern, 20th century. Chinese in pre-modern China always had their portraits taken in the form of painting, never with busts really. Sculpting was not as highly revered by the cultured scholar official as painting was. Statues were reserved for more religious and aesthetic purposes (although tomb sculptures and statues were made to reflect how personal attendants and real soldiers actually looked). I tried to edit the page to include this web source, but I am blocked from doing so, since it is being featured on the main page at the moment.--Pericles of AthensTalk 04:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Found the source

message: I have to agree with madman. I think the lack of an 11th century source for the bust from which the drawing was produced should be clearly stated in the image caption. Something along the lines of, "this drawing is based on a bust of unknown providence and may not reflect Shen Kuo's true likeness". At least as a footnote. 82.71.48.158 21:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The bust clearly looks modern. The portrait sculpture was I think completely unknown in China at this date.  We should caption the drawing "modern artist's impression" or similar, and not in a note. Johnbod 21:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added "modern artist's impression" to the caption.  Sorry, but we need to be straightforward.  Madman 23:45, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good. 82.71.48.158 01:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional comment

message: Did Shen try to measure longitude by the difference between true and magnetic north, and if so, did he succeed?  To measure travels east or west would have been a very important advance, and seems well within his capabilities once he had accurately established true north as opposed to the position of Polaris.70.15.116.59 17:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  True vs. magnetic north 

message: After explaining the early history of map making and grid making in Chinese cartography from the 3rd century BC to the 3rd century AD, Needham states on pages 542-544 of his 3rd volume:
According to Needham in his 3rd volume, on page 357, about celestial longitude:
I will write more once I read more about developments in the following Tang and Song dynasties. Hold on to your bootstraps!--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Response number 1

message: Maybe to English speakers it sounds like chinky-ching-chong but Shen is the surname and Kuo is the first informal name. This article continually refers to him as Kuo. That would be like saying in the Albert Einstein article, "Albert did this and that." Or referring to Thomas Edison as Tom. Or Linnaeus as Carl. Or Washington as Georgie. Using a first name is for best friends and your mom. And Kuo is rarely (if ever) a Chinese surname. Maybe if this was an Icelandic article using the first name would be fine, I don't think it is. Fix it. .:DavuMaya:. 18:41, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol. Thanks for bringing this to attention. I fixed all the loose and single "Kuos" lingering about without a "Shen" before it, simply replacing them with "Shen" or "Shen Kuo" or "him" or "he." If you can find anymore, feel free to fix them.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:49, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming convention 

message: I just made some major edits to the article, creating a new sub-section and expanding several others. I hope people enjoy the read!--Pericles of AthensTalk 05:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expansion 

message: Why is the Nuremberg woodcut image included?  Does it have any relation except that some people say it depicts a UFO, and some people say the pearl story is a story about a UFO?  If that's the only connection, I think the picture should be removed.  It might give people the impression there's a more direct connection.  --Allen (talk) 17:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. There could be a link to the article on UFOs, but the woodcut is irrelevant and unnecessary since it relates to a different event. Otherwise we could add images of modern UFO sightings, which would be of as much relevance. Please fix this soon. Muchado (talk) 16:15, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, very good point, it shall be removed. Regards.--Pericles of AthensTalk 21:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  why Nuremberg woodcut? 

message: "Alongside his colleague Wei Pu, Shen accurately mapped the orbital paths of the moon and the planets, in an intensive five-year project that rivaled the later work of the Danish astronomer Tycho Brahe (1546–1601).[8]"
I checked the reference. Unfortunately, it does not support this. It says the following: "Shen and Wei therefore planned a series of observations of a kind not proposed in Europe until the time of Tycho Brahe (...) This program of observing was the most unfortunate casualty of the obstruction within the Bureau. Shen and Wei had no recourse but to produce a conventional planetary theory based mainly on old observations."
As such, this line should be removed from the article. DDSaeger (talk) 22:31, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Astronomical observations 

message: Why is he sometimes called Shen Gua? Is it a different name, or a different way of transcribing the same name? Andrew Dalby 16:00, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Kuo and Gua are the two possible pronunciations of the character 括. Kuo and Gua are in pinyin, by the way. In Wade-Giles, the same two pronunciations are Romanized as K'uo and Kua. Madalibi (talk) 12:45, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Two possible pronunciations of one character is a possibility that hadn't occurred to me. Andrew Dalby 13:43, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why sometimes Shen Gua? 

message: The stuff about recognising climate change is ref'd to Chan 15, presumably this. That doesn't look right to me William M. Connolley (talk) 17:50, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Chan is used here as an extra reference to Joseph Needham's source, which is the prime source that I've used for the info on climate change. If you look at Dream Pool Essays#Geological theory, you will see the original Needham passages where he quotes Shen Kuo.--Pericles of AthensTalk 07:59, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Chan source is voodoo. It says nothing whatsoever of any relevance - at least, as far as I can see. I assume Chan 15 is page 15. I see you've taken it out now - that seems correct. I'm interested, though: have you yourself read the other ref and verified that it contains the relevant info? William M. Connolley (talk) 09:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Using the Chan to support the cliamte stuff looked like voodoo to me. But as you say, it was merely an error on your part which you've corrected William M. Connolley (talk) 21:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine. I'm pretty sure that's the only instance where I made that sort of mistake (I don't see myself doing that often), but if you find anything else of this or any other nature that needs correcting, let me know. Regards.--Pericles of AthensTalk 21:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Climate 

message: Anyways, here are some of the relevant Needham passages I will share with you about the compass. From pages 249 to 250 of Volume IV, Part 1:
Development of the magnetic compass in China
What, then, happened in China? We propose now to take the basic text of Shen Kua, in the Mêng Chhi Pi Than, written about +1088, i.e. a century before the earliest European mention of the magnetic compass, as our fixed point, and to work back from that, considering all earlier references to the directivity of iron magnets, as well as other Sung texts. This important passage runs as follows:
Magicians rub the point of a needle with the lodestone; then it is able to point to the south. But it always inclines slightly to the east, and does not point directly at the south (jan chhang wei phien tung, pu chhüannan yeh). (It may be made to) float on the surface of water, but it is then rather unsteady. It may be balanced on the finger-nail, or on the rim of a cup, where it can be made to turn more easily, but these supports being hard and smooth, it is liable to fall off. It is best to suspend it by a single cocoon fibre of new silk attached to the centre of the needle by a piece of wax the size of a mustard-seed—then, hanging in a windless place, it will always point to the south.
Among such needles there are some which, after being rubbed, point to the north. I have needles of both kinds by me. The south-pointing property of the lodestone is like the habit of cypress-trees of always pointing to the west. No one can explain the principles of these things.
Moreover, the same book contains another, less well known, passage:
When the point of a needle is rubbed with the lodestone, then the sharp end always points south, but some needles point to the north. I suppose that the natures of the stones are not all alike. Just so, at the summer solstice the deer shed their horns, and at the winter solstice the elks do so. Since the south and the north are two opposites, there must be a fundamental difference between them. This has not yet been investigated deeply enough.
Here, then, we have not only the undeniably earliest clear description of the magnetic needle compass in any language, but also a clear statement of the magnetic declination. Some Western historians of science have been willing to recognise this, for example Cajori (5), although it greatly antedates the traditional time of the discovery of declination, by Columbus in +1492. The two kinds of needles mentioned by Shen Kua may of course have been magnetised at different poles of the lodestone, but there may also have been another origin for this traditional idea (see on, p. 267). The analogy with cypress-trees can only have rested on local observation of curvature due to prevailing winds.
Well then, the first statement in the last paragraph here seems sufficient for Needham's assertion about Shen Kuo being the first to describe the magnetic compass. One is reminded of just how dated this source is (i.e. finished and published by 1962), since he says a few historians of science have accepted this, when it now has universal consensus. He then goes on to describe the various magnetized lodestone tools the Chinese used for geomancy in the previous centuries. But after this, on pages 279-280, we get to the part where he describes the first textual evidence for its use by mariners navigating at sea:
The Use of the Compass in Navigation
Here it will be best to proceed as we did with the magnetic compass as such, and will allow the story to develop around a central text. It so happens that this text is approximately contemporary with the words of Shen Kua in the Mêng Chhi Pi Than (above, p. 250). The Phing-Chou Kho Than (Phingchow Table-Talk) was written between +1111 and +1117, but referred to events concerning that and other ports from +1086 onwards; its author was Chu Yü. He knew what he was talking about, for his father, Chu Fu, had been a high official of the Port of Canton from +1094 and Governor from +1099 to +1102. The essential passage runs as follows:
According to government regulations (chia ling) concerning seagoing ships (hai po), the larger ones can carry several hundred men, and the smaller ones may have more than a hundred men on board. One of the most important merchants is chosen to be Leader (Kang Shou), another is Deputy Leader (Fu Kang Shou), and a third is Business Manager (Tsa Shih). The Superintendent of Merchant Shipping gives them an unofficially sealed red certificate permitting them to use the light bamboo for punishing their company when necessary. Should anyone die at sea, his property becomes forfeit to the government...The ship's pilots are acquainted with the configuration of the coasts; at night they steer by the stars, and in the day-time by the sun. In dark weather they look at the south-pointing needle (chih nan chen). They also use a line a hundred feet long with a hook at the end which they let down to take samples of mud from the sea-bottom; by its (appearance and) smell they can determine their whereabouts.
Here then is a very detailed statement of the use of the mariner's compass just about a century before its first mention in Europe.
. . .Before the first European mention (+1190) there are two further Chinese texts.
He then goes on to describe the "Dreams of the Glories of the Eastern Capital" (Dong Jing Meng Hua Lu) written by Meng Yuan-Lao sometime after 1126 (i.e. the fall of Kaifeng) and referring to events around 1110, which states that the compass was used by sailors in dark and rainy conditions, and that the ship's mate (huo chang) was in charge of this. Needham writes that this Chinese phrase for the person in charge of compass readings on a ship was used until 18th century. The second source he describes is one by Xu Jing, written about thirteen years after Meng's book, which describes a diplomatic mission to Korea and use of the south-pointing floating needle.
So, Sebastian, I hope this is settled then! Hopefully later in the week I will have time to address your concerns below about article's organization. In the meantime, I cannot wait to work on notes for the article Parthian Empire, which I plan to rewrite entirely (just look how dilapidated that article presently is, a huge shame at Wiki). Cheers.--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:10, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the thorough reply; that was an interesting read! Yes, I agree, it's settled for the purpose of this article. Still, there seems some room for scholars to find out more. While you're right that the statement in the Guiguzi doesn't prove anything, it is strange that it would say such a thing; where does this idea come from? Also, while it's hard to imagine a compass without a needle, it is not impossible to use a lodestone for that purpose. I also wonder how the idea arose to rub a needle long enough to a lodestone to magnetize it. Maybe they noticed that the needles who had stuck to a lodestone got magnetized themselves, and then curiosity and impatience did the rest. Of course, this is not the right place for such speculation, but I couldn't resist mentioning it. — Sebastian 16:28, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, I wish there was more conclusive textual evidence from the Warring States Period about use of the compass, but all we have is the statement in the Guiguzi about the lodestone being utilized by jade gatherers. Perhaps somewhere a scholar argues that this tool could be considered a compass proper, even without the magnetized needle. In any case, let's now focus on article organization, which I will try to address this weekend. Regards.--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:49, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Compass 

message: What's the rationale behind the current arrangement of subsections of the scholarly achievements section?  We currently have the following:
    * 2.1 Raised-relief map
    * 2.2 Pharmacology
    * 2.3 Civil engineering
    * 2.4 Anatomy
    * 2.5 Mathematics and optics
    * 2.6 Magnetic needle compass
    * 2.7 Archaeology
    * 2.8 Geology
    * 2.9 Meteorology
    * 2.10 Astronomy and instruments
    * 2.11 Movable type printing
    * 2.12 Other achievements in science and technology
    * 2.13 Beliefs and philosophy
    * 2.14 Art criticism
I see the following problems with that:
# It's jumpy. Why start with "Raised-relief map", and why is that followed by "Pharmacology"? "Magnetic needle compass" seems much closer to "Astronomy and instruments" than to "Archaeology". Why is "Civil engineering" wedged in between "Pharmacology" and "Anatomy"? Is there any sequence we could adopt, such as of the Bitan itself? Or maybe Needham's order?
# Beliefs and art criticism don't fit in this section. The other sections all can be considered "science and technology" (according to Needham's use of the term "science"). Should these be moved to a section of their own? What should it be called? 
A related question is about the section introduction, which largely duplicates the text we discussed for the article lead above. Should we merge or differentiate these? If differentiate, how? — Sebastian 19:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arrangement of scholarly achievements section 

message: As we're thinking about the lead section, here are some other consideration I'd like to mention. When I read an article in any encyclopedia, I am looking for a clear definition, if possible, in the first sentence. Currently, the first sentence is very hard to parse, because of the parentheticical insertion of two lines of names and romanizations. The second sentence no better, with a list over 3 lines of scientist names attached. 
The scientist names are already covered in the infobox, as fields in which he worked. That is a better place for such a list, so I would propose to keep that list only there. I would also like to move the variations of his name into the infobox, as described at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_for_China-related_articles#Box_format. Unfortunately, it seems like these two infoboxes are mutually exclusive. I searched :category:Chinese scientists, but the vast majority of the articles there (58) don't use any infobox at all. Two use  (ex.: Ma Jun), 8 use  (ex. this article), and 3 use  (ex.: Su Song). Maybe we could combine two of these to create an infobox "Chinese scientist"? — Sebastian 22:01, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Sebastian. Sorry that I did not address your concerns over the weekend. My grandmother on my mother's side, the last surviving grandparent of mine, had a stroke recently and passed away just yesterday after going into the hospital over the weekend. I'll focus on this article sometime later in the week. Regards.--Pericles of AthensTalk 20:56, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm sorry to hear that; I hope she had a long and happy life, and that your family will harmoniously celebrate her life. The work on this article can wait; it is at least as good now as it was when it was a featured article. Please feel free to delete this little conversation or move it to your talk page as you see fit. — Sebastian 16:52, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text from first paragraph into infobox? 

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thread_title: File:Shen Kua.JPG Nominated for Deletion

message: I'm sorry but the article mentioned something about calculus. But, didn't Newton invent calculus.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.118.187.203 (talk) 02:45, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for bringing this up! I checked back on my old Needham reference, and indeed the previous statement was not entirely unsupported. Needham says that works of Shen Kuo and many Japanese mathematicians of the 17th and 18th centuries dealt with circle principles that seemed very akin to differential and integral calculus. However, he concludes (Volume 3, p. 145): "The essential point is that all the indigenous Chinese and Japanese work remained at the static level, while the dynamic approach was due to Newton and Liebniz alone." In light of that, I have struck the word "calculus" from the sentence but added the proper link to circle packing. Cheers!--Pericles of AthensTalk 03:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Calculus 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071022215719/http://hongen.com/art/twdg/htwxj/th0004.htm to http://www.hongen.com/art/twdg/htwxj/th0004.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070929042332/http://www.feb.gov.cn/news1/displaynews.asp?id=139 to http://www.feb.gov.cn/news1/displaynews.asp?id=139
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120324024938/http://www.dahsm.medschool.ucsf.edu/history/IntroCourseIPDF/Sivin_ChineseMedicine.pdf to http://www.dahsm.medschool.ucsf.edu/history/IntroCourseIPDF/Sivin_ChineseMedicine.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070409190926/http://www.chinaculture.org/gb/en_madeinchina/2003-09/24/content_72415.htm to http://www.chinaculture.org/gb/en_madeinchina/2003-09/24/content_72415.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070707032710/http://rosettastone.wordpress.com/2006/04/30/shen-kuos-bamboo-shoots/ to http://rosettastone.wordpress.com/2006/04/30/shen-kuos-bamboo-shoots/
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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:21, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Shen Kuo. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140502074744/http://www.yhwt.com/newsshow.aspx?artid=3169 to http://www.yhwt.com/newsshow.aspx?artid=3169
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070707034017/http://www.zhenjiang.gov.cn/gb/zgzj/zjgb/lyzpd/fjjc/userobject1ai12068.html to http://www.zhenjiang.gov.cn/gb/zgzj/zjgb/lyzpd/fjjc/userobject1ai12068.html
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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:58, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: About a quarter of the Citations are from Sivin (1995), III; which I've found online in PDF format (posted by Sivin as assigned reading for his courses). The problem is that each PDF page has slightly less than each book page, causing a gradually increasing mismatch so that by the end there's a 2 page difference (33 pages in book to 55 pages in PDF). Should I link it anyway or not? If so, should I include some kind of note (where/how would I do that)? Or perhaps I should just link the references for those citations where the relevant content is on the same page in both the PDF and book?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaakovaryeh (talk • contribs) 07:36, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Found a link to a pdf of Sivin (1995), III 

message: It looks like Temple (1986) is missing.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacessori (talk • contribs) 02:49, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Robert K. G. Temple is an unreliable source (see WP:RELIABLE), so any citations provided by him have since been removed from the article. Thanks for making the observation, though! Pericles of AthensTalk 05:13, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bibliography 

message: I’m afraid this text about Shen Kuo, it’s hard for little kids to research and it doesn’t make any sense to them. 103.112.79.20 (talk) 07:42, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That's an irrelevant concern for this article, because that is what "Simple English Wikipedia" is for. Well, for children in primary school and also people who do not speak English as a native language and are still learning the basics of it. For that matter there is already an article about Shen Kuo over at the Simple English Wikipedia. You are free to share that with very young schoolchildren if you like, but English Wikipedia is targeted towards native English speaking adults and teenage adolescents still in high school or even middle school. None of the articles on this site are tailored to children younger than middle schoolers, especially considering the very mature nature of some topics. Pericles of AthensTalk 05:21, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shen Kuo