Talk:Every Nation Churches & Ministries/Archive 2

message: ===Rick Shelton===
Rick Shelton's church in Missouri
:Rick Shelton’s church was associated with EN but never officially (or legally) joined Every Nation and are currently not associated with EN. This is mentioned in Steve Murrell’s May 2006 Leader Letter  Thelma Bowlen 09:52, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We are not disputing that the St. Louis church was affiliated with EN. But from the reader's point of view, the fact that they're no longer associated with EN makes this statement irrelevant and that's why we are suggesting it should be removed. From a legal point of view, the St. Louis church never joined the Every Nation convention of churches (our legal IRS classification). Thelma Bowlen 08:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Now that we have the structure statement Thelma's claim becomes more clear here.  BB do you still have the same problems believing her claim?  jbolden1517Talk 10:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Complex issues 

message: Rick Shelton's church in Missouri
:Rick Shelton’s church was associated with EN but never officially (or legally) joined Every Nation and are currently not associated with EN. This is mentioned in Steve Murrell’s May 2006 Leader Letter  Thelma Bowlen 09:52, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We are not disputing that the St. Louis church was affiliated with EN. But from the reader's point of view, the fact that they're no longer associated with EN makes this statement irrelevant and that's why we are suggesting it should be removed. From a legal point of view, the St. Louis church never joined the Every Nation convention of churches (our legal IRS classification). Thelma Bowlen 08:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Now that we have the structure statement Thelma's claim becomes more clear here.  BB do you still have the same problems believing her claim?  jbolden1517Talk 10:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rick Shelton

message: ===Proposed Edits for History Section===
others. On a much larger scale, Morning Star effectively doubled its size around the year 2000 with the addition of the
This South African movement was strong in Europe and Africa, there had been little Morning Star presence in Europe, and no Morning Star presence in Africa up to this point.
:It is not accurate to say that when His People joined, MSI doubled in size. The His People Churches constitute a small proportion of the number of churches and number of members in Every Nation. By far the largest number of churches are in Asia – as well as the largest number of members. The next largest number of churches is in Peru. Thelma Bowlen 09:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Blueboy you need to respond to that one.  jbolden1517Talk 20:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Thelma and Misha's reply 

message: others. On a much larger scale, Morning Star effectively doubled its size around the year 2000 with the addition of the
This South African movement was strong in Europe and Africa, there had been little Morning Star presence in Europe, and no Morning Star presence in Africa up to this point.
:It is not accurate to say that when His People joined, MSI doubled in size. The His People Churches constitute a small proportion of the number of churches and number of members in Every Nation. By far the largest number of churches are in Asia – as well as the largest number of members. The next largest number of churches is in Peru. Thelma Bowlen 09:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Blueboy you need to respond to that one.  jbolden1517Talk 20:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed Edits for History Section

message: Every Nation reflects a blend of influences, much like its predecessor Maranatha Campus Ministries did. This includING PRESBYTERIAN, BAPTIST, PENTECOSTAL, Word of Faith, Reformed theology, Christian Reconstructionism, and Charismatic theology (which itself was influenced by the Latter Rain Movement). Perhaps the closest analogue, however, is the Shepherding Movement. For example, one of the key founders and shapers of the doctrine, Steve Murrell, essentially mentions on his blog [2] that he "cut his teeth" on New Wine magazine, the official publication of the Shepherding Movement.
:Every Nation, like many contemporary churches, adopts the doctrines and creeds of the historical Christian church. For example, Every Nation embraces the Statement of Faith of the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE) , the Nicean Creed and the Chalcedon Creed.
::Maranatha is not the predecessor of Every Nation and this is addressed in the “on the record” statement in the paragraph below. Also, this section starts off by stating that the focus of this section is to capture the “official” doctrine of EN. “Christian Reconstructionism,” “Latter Rain,” and “Shepherding” do not form part of any “official” EN doctrine. Of course, in a movement of hundreds of thousands of people in over 50 nations, there are very likely people who have been influenced by every denomination and belief, including the Baptist Church, the Presbyterians, the Catholics, etc. Every Nation 08:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  EN/Thelma.   Virtually every Christian embraces those doctrines, the Eastern Orthodox church embraces those doctrines.  Certainly I don't mind a statement to the effect that EN endorses those viewpoints but the final statement needs to be much more specific.  A good article for this Lutheran#Doctrine.  You may want to use (and perhaps edit to fit Pentecostal#Theology)   We need to get specific enough so that we get into those areas where EN disagrees with Baptists and/or other Charismatic.  For example is EN premil?   jbolden1517Talk 00:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

text: This description of Lordship is simply not true. “Lordship” as it pertains to being a core value of Every Nation refers to doing one’s best to live a life that is “Christ-centered” – ie, living a life that is pleasing to God. Every Nation believes in salvation as a “free gift of God” by the “grace of God” alone. If anyone believes in Lordship Salvation as opposed to Free Grace salvation, they are out of line and this belief it not condoned by Every Nation. Thelma Bowlen 10:02, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK Blueboy back to you.  Any evidence for the doctrine of Lordship above?  jbolden1517Talk 00:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

text: These statements are untrue. “Spiritual Family” as it pertains to Every Nation is a term that refers to the larger body of Christ. Members are not told that they must be “faithful to their spiritual family,” instead, they are encouraged to value the relationships God has given them with other brothers and sisters in Christ. Every Nation in no endorses church members being told they are rebelling if they leavea a local church. Again, this section is supposedly dealing with official doctrine – if anyone has ever been made to feel that they could not leave a local church, then whoever said it from that local church was out of line. Thelma Bowlen 10:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Baby let's get out the VLI notes. Hey by the way I welcome the new policy of allowing people to leave more freely.  Apparently most of us were all out of line for the past 10 years or so. Anonymou 04:43, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text:  Blueboy, Same question?  jbolden1517Talk 00:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

text: This statement is both unfair and untrue. Every Nation believes that anyone from any background can be a leader. In fact, EN has well recognized community outreaches around the globe including: medical missions to Colombia, Peru; scholarship program for squatter kids in Manila; community-building in Sierra Leone; orphanages in Africa; and inner-city outreaches in the United States. Thelma Bowlen 10:09, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Blueboy, same question? jbolden1517Talk 00:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed Edits to Doctrine Section

message: Here's a more detailed statement on the NFL issue:
In 1998, several NFL teams voiced concern about Champions for Christ, Morning Star's outreach to athletes.  At least two teams, the Chicago Bears and Jacksonville Jaguars, claimed that players who had become affiliated with Champions for Christ were giving an inordinate amount of money to the group.  For example, the Bears were worried that Champions for Christ recruited their top draft choice that year, running back Curtis Enis, to raise money for the ministry.  Enis dropped his original agent in favor of Greg Feste, a businessman with strong ties to Morning Star and Champions for Christ.  Feste had never negotiated an NFL contract before, and the resulting deal paid Enis far less than what was usually expected for an NFL running back at the time.  The resulting delay in negotiations kept Enis out of training camp.  Several Jaguars players told the New York Times that quarterback Mark Brunell, offensive lineman Tony Boselli and other players were very aggressive in recruiting their teammates to join Champions for Christ, even telling their teammates that they'd "go to hell" if they didn't join.  
More later tonight ... Blueboy96 00:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Blueboy on NFL

message: I'm requesting we remove the links: Every Nation Exposed, Factnet, Discussion Forum dedicated to reforming abuses in Every Nation, Maranatha, Morning Star International, and Every Nation timeline.  'Every Nation Exposed' is an anonymous blog; 'Factnet' is an anonymous online discussion forum, 'Discussion Forum dedicated to reforming abuses in Every Nation' is a discussion forum with the exact same people from Factnet; and the 'Maranatha, Morning Star International, and Every Nation Timeline' is the same anonymously posted timeline that appears several times on Factnet. Thelma Bowlen 07:58, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you be OK with a separate section?  Alternately can you recommend better anti Every Nation sites?  I agree these are low quality but I want the readership to be able to find highly hostile reviews that is, where to find the hostile sites is valid information the contents are not.  I'd go for some sort of short disclaimer or title or something.  jbolden1517Talk 00:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Removal of 4 of the External Links

message: We would like to request for a re-classification of the External Links following the example found in the Wikipedia entry for the Southern Baptist Convention[]:
Official Websites
*Every Nation Churches and Ministries Website 
** Every Nation FAQ
** Discipleship Policy
*The 2010 Initiative
*Every Nation Leadership Institute
*Victory Christian Fellowship
*Every Nation Campus Ministries
*Official Website of Steve Murrell
*Official Website of Rice Broocks
*Thembalitsha Foundation for Community Development in Africa
*Youth Life Learning Centers
*Youth Life Learning Center - Nashville
Criticism
(Everything else)
Every Nation 12:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, I am the author of the historical timeline, currently posted and updated at http://www.geocities.com/ulyankee.  I will admit that it is not the prettiest page on the web; however, I have posted contact information for people to contact me directly to notify me of any incorrect information which is my main concern.  Everything on the timeline is from documentable sources which are clearly stated on the top of the page - much of it from public records including corporate documents, trademark records, etc.  So I would like to challenge its removal due to its "low quality" (it has been online in some form or fashion for nearly two years and this is the first comment I've gotten on the quality of the research) and would like to request that it be added back to the links similar to the other non-official links like the FACTNet discussion thread and the "ReformationStation."  Yes, I am a former member, so I wouldn't have any problem with the description being asterisked, having some kind of disclaimer, etc., but the timeline has entailed several months worth of research including ordering corporate documents from several states, researching archived webpages through www.archive.org, etc. and I have tried to keep the timeline based as much on the facts as possible given my bias.  I believe it is a valuable contribution to the discussion about this group.  If this is not the correct place to post this request/comment, please let me know. Thank you.ulyankee 13:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Hold on.  Is the request still for deletion or are both sides OK with just having a few subsections (official, etc...)?   As for Ulyankee, you still are in the article (see footnote 19). The issue witht the timeline is really is not so much accuracy as suitability.  The timeline is essentially personal "what stuff has happened to Every Nation that Ulyankee is interested in". It happens to be the best timeline available (Thelma, hint hint) but its unbalanced in its presentation.  There is a real focus in the timeline on fairly small financial actions, which seem to be hinting at problems without actually clearly stating them (and thus taking on the burdon for the case).  Anyway I'm going to see about this new proposal.  If everyone is OK with this then I'll throw your link in and we'll discuss disclaimers.  jbolden1517Talk 12:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Updated Request for Changes to External Links

message: Just cleaned up a few typos/grammatical errors.  See Page History for details. Thelma Bowlen 07:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thelma had objected to some of the changes.  I reverted she can add back the ones she agrees with.  I oked the grammer changes but that was one very large change.  After she adds in your changes she's OK with I'll make a list of the rest and let her reply as to what the issue was with them.  jbolden1517Talk 00:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Minor Edits

message: An example of a planted church is the church in New York City in the aftermath of the 9/11 tragedy known as Morning Star New York (MSNY). Acquired Existing...
These are churches that choose to join – it is not mergers and acquisitions. “Acquired” is a loaded term that tries to imply that it was a takeover.Misha Arturovich 09:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not think it’s particularly relevant to the encyclopedia article because the point here is that Blueboy is trying to make his point that EN “actively recruits” from existing churches which is not true. EN states in its own core values (under evangelism) that it prefers to grow through “birth, not adoption” – this means it prefers to grow through establishing new churches, not by “adopting” in existing churches. We do not mind leaving in mention of the churches that have been adopted in, however, since this does happen (it is the exception, not the rule) but we have corrected the language used. Thelma BowlenTalk 14:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply re church acquisition

message: remnants of a Maranatha founded church in Beacon City Church in Boston,
:There were less than 15 former Maranatha churches which later changed their names and joined Every Nation – this has already been addressed in the paragraph titled criticisms below. Again, Maranatha should not be the focus of this article. If that is to be said, it is equally fair to identify the In Focus Church as a former Southern Baptist Church, etc.Misha Arturovich 09:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What was the order here, SB -> Mar -> MSI or Mar -> SB -> MSI or ...? I also agree on the focus issue but lets separate the two issues out for now. jbolden1517Talk 20:24, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In Focus was never part of Maranatha. They were SB, then joined MSI. My point is that by repeatedly sprinkling the article with “Maranatha,” Blueboy is trying to imply that EN is a rebranding of Maranatha, an issue we have already directly addressed in the Criticism section. Thelma BowlenTalk 14:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply re. In Focus Church being formerly SB

message: This South African movement was strong in Europe and Africa, there had been little Morning Star presence in Europe, and no Morning Star presence in Africa up to this point
It is not accurate to say that when His People joined, MSI doubled in size. The His People Churches constitute a small proportion of the number of churches and number of members in Every Nation. By far the largest number of churches are in Asia – as well as the largest number of members. The next largest number of churches is in Peru. Thelma Bowlen 09:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Blueboy did not object to the correction on the date when His People joined MSI (1997 – this was way at the top of the discussion page) but he never replied to his assertion that His People effectively doubled the size of MSI. Since this is not true, I deleted that phrase in my proposed re-write.Thelma BowlenTalk 14:22, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment re Blueboy and His People size

message: Maranatha is not the predecessor of Every Nation and this is addressed in the “on the record” statement in the paragraph below. Also, this section starts off by stating that the focus of this section is to capture the “official” doctrine of EN. “Christian Reconstructionism,” “Latter Rain,” and “Shepherding” do not form part of any “official” EN doctrine. Of course, in a movement of hundreds of thousands of people in over 50 nations, there are very likely people who have been influenced by every denomination and belief, including the Baptist Church, the Presbyterians, the Catholics, etc. Every Nation 08:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Virtually every Christian embraces those doctrines, the Eastern Orthodox church embraces those doctrines. Certainly I don't mind a statement to the effect that EN endorses those viewpoints but the final statement needs to be much more specific. A good article for this Lutheran#Doctrine. You may want to use (and perhaps edit to fit Pentecostal#Theology) We need to get specific enough so that we get into those areas where EN disagrees with Baptists and/or other Charismatic. For example is EN premil? jbolden1517Talk 00:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, will do, I will put this in the proposed re-write section. Thelma BowlenTalk 14:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply re EN doctrine comment

message: This write up is not factual information. Have they surveyed the membership of EN into the hundreds of thousands in 50 nations worldwide? At any rate, this is obviously written from an American bias, since the vast majority of EN’s members in Asia, Africa and South America are new converts, and they constitute the largest percentage of EN’s total membership.Misha Arturovich 09:55, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Misha, That may very well be true. Is it the case that the American EN is very different in make up than the Asian, African and SA EN and thus maybe we should discuss membership in two separate paragraphs? Now assuming that the quote above were designated as only applying to the US branch/division/collection (still need structure information) of EN would it be true? jbolden1517Talk 02:04, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the burden of evidence is on Blueboy to prove his statement that “a large percentage of new Every Nation members are not truly new converts to Christianity, but those with Christians backgrounds.” We do not believe that the American EN is that different from the rest of the world and does not warrant being treated differently. Thelma BowlenTalk 14:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply to Evangelism Doctrine Discussion

message: This write up of discipleship is not accurate. “Discipleship” as described in the official Every Nation policy regarding Discipleship means “following Jesus and helping others follow Jesus.” (a copy of this policy is contained in the May 2006 Leader Letter on the EN website – add hyperlink). While it is true that submission to a discipler was standard practice in the Shepherding movement, Every Nation rejects this teaching as stated in its Discipleship Policy.
 
:Misha, There is a discipleship policy? Excellent. Is it available on the web? If not is there a book? What is the policy...? jbolden1517Talk 02:04, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The EN discipleship policy is posted on the corporate website: http://www.everynation.org/en/top/about-us/policies-guidelines/discipleship-policy.html  Thelma BowlenTalk 14:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply re Discipleship Doctrine

message: As I understand it, the whole reason the LA scandal got cut out is because without more information, we could have a WP:BLP violation here ... even jbolden admits it's unfair.  As soon as more info comes out on it, the way I read it, it's going back in.
I had to help get my wife to California for a home visit, so it's gonna take awhile to catch up.  Blueboy96 00:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Blueboy96 returns

message: Please indicate the full title of C. Peter Wagner to include 'Dr.'.  Also, for any future references to Fuller, we need to say Fuller Theological Seminary so people don't confuse this with Fuller paint or paint brushes. =) Thelma BowlenTalk 04:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarification for Wagner and Fuller

message: Reading the above this may really be an issue of eschatology, see Summary of Christian eschatological differences.  Most of the christian world is a-mil or mid-trib.  Most of the protestant world is Postmil.  Americans are heavily influenced by Baptist   who are premil.  From what I'm reading above it appears that EN is postmil.  That's not really an extreme position for a global church (though very unusual in the US for an evangelical church).  
As a historical point regarding postmil lots of postmils did support the fascists historically, as did amils. In recent times postmil on the presbyterian side is associated with Theonomy which is fascistic.  So I agree but as wikipedians we can't say that because we are showing an American bias.  Our political culture is heavily premil in its orientation so Americanism is not a NPOV standard here.   This could be dicey.  David are you American?  jbolden1517Talk 00:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Called into question by whom?  Baptists obviously premils are going to disagree with postmils.  I think we just describe their doctrines, accurately without any editorializing.  If we do it should be pretty clear where they disagree with Baptist theology (I'll ask Thelma how she feels about an explicit contrast, I'm a little worried we are introducing US bias into the article).  Just remember it may not seem this way as part of the American Evangelical movement but EN is the majority, you live in an isolated enclave.  :-)  jbolden1517Talk 04:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am British-Canadian. David L Rattigan 08:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good that will work for this.  David you get temporary authority on what sounds fascistic vs. what's just not typical American if it comes up.  jbolden1517Talk 11:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: My first contribution here, but I attend a church in the EN family, and I've stayed out thus far because Thelma is the official voice. But just for the perspective of an individual member of a church under the EN umbrella, Eschatological beliefs are normally left to the individual. In fact, my pastor rarely preaches on it because such difference in beliefs can be controversial, and since it's a theology we can never be 100% sure about it is best left to each person to decide. I personally am mostly A-millenial, my pastor is possibly Post-mil, and there are several members that are Pre-mil dispensationalists. As far as I know, such a lineup is common in other churches in EN, and holds the same for other theologies that aren't part of core (protestant) Christianity (as given by the statement of faith by EN). In my (albeit, limited) experience, EN does not require particular beliefs in such matters at the individual level. --DaveHarris 13:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: jbolden's reply to Blueboy's point

message: The KPIC tie is not contested so no reason to spend time on evidence. Basically a huge part of the marantha section is arguing what it seems the EN side is willing to concede.  That those 15 churches did come aboard with their financial and staffing structures intact.  We are still discussing the doctrine section and I need a better cite.  Sorry, some of this is happening in email but I think Blueboy is OK with EN just agreeing "on the record" rather than having to argue the case.  If not let me know.  We'll be getting a quality citation in roughly a month.  jbolden1517Talk 00:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problem with it--I was thinking of moving a good chunk of the Maranatha stuff to the Maranatha article anyway, since there's so much evidence of a link there that it's really beyond the scope of the article.  I do think, however, that the more egregious stuff (KPIC, Champions for Christ, Boston) should be mentioned in only a brief blurb.  Blueboy96 15:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Other than the churches joining with financial status, name and staff intact what other evidence do you have?  In other words what "egregious" stuff is there that is still in dispute?  jbolden1517Talk 19:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe I read it wrong--I thought the stuff that was beyond dispute was staying in.  But anyways ... KPIC has long claimed 1990 as its founding date despite corporate paperwork that says otherwise.  Also, Beacon City Church holds itself out as being founded in 2001, but in reality it operates under the old Maranatha Christian Church of Boston charter ... so therefore, it is legally the same church. Blueboy96 15:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  In this case the stuff was by in large argument which was useful only in so far as it was trying to prove a point.  That point has been conceded.  For example if there is a debate whether Ford F series use good year tires you might want to have a line like "In a recent survey 200 ford F series cars were verified to have Good Year Tires".  But we wouldn't include that line if we could get "Ford manufacturing reports that they use GoodYear tires on the F-series".  Once we have confirmation that the churches joined EN intact: physical plant, staff and financial you don't need to show evidence of intactness.  jbolden1517Talk 14:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  KPIC tie not contested 

message: Could you please move the first three paragraphs currently under Core Values and place them as the first items under the Doctrine heading, replacing the two paragraphs that are currently there?
The only reference that has been provided regarding Shepherding is that Steve Murrell mentions in his blog that he read New Wine magazine as a new believer. This was in reference to a book recommendation for Stephen Mansfield's biography of Derek Prince, not a doctrinal statement. Also in Steve's blog, he describes his spiritual journey and the good and bad things he learned along the way. Included here is a specific statement where he makes it obvious that he and New Covenant Church where he was attending did not agree with the Shepherding movement: 
:"New Covenant Church was connected with Ken Sumrall's Liberty Church, a "non-denomination" that was very "anti-discipleship." The preacher at Bethel was even more anti-discipleship. I really didn't get it, because discipleship was all over the New Testament and my small discipleship group at 1st Pres sure helped my fledgling faith. In a few years I would find out that the "discipleship" the NC and Bethel preachers were against was a completely different animal than the discipleship I experienced at 1st Pres. The 1st Pres version helped me follow Jesus. The other version tended to get people to depend on a human "shepherd," rather than the Lord."
Thelma BowlenTalk 08:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:   I'd say this is pretty strong counter evidence, BB.  Any response, that is evidence of the connection between Shepherding and EN?  jbolden1517Talk 23:15, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal to move text from Core Values to Doctrine Section

message: Evangelism
The Bible says that God has called each of us to the "ministry of reconciliation" and has given us a "message of reconciliation" (2 Cor 5:18-19). Since reconciliation is about re-establishing broken relationships, this means that God desires us to bring people, especially "lost" people, back into a relationship with Him. Therefore, to value evangelism is to value relationships with people, especially people who do not know God. Thelma BowlenTalk 04:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Given these two definitions the distinction between discipleship and lordship is unclear.  jbolden1517Talk 11:31, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Again I think the description is really really vague.  Servant leadership is standard christian.  But what does "relationship not rules" imply?  That is very wide open to interpretation.  12:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

text: How does that quote imply that fairly complex doctrine (as the statement indicates?   Other than that this one is nicely clear.  But is where the whole idea of having couples act as joint pastors comes from?  jbolden1517Talk 05:33, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Re-write for Evangelism

message: OK this isn't a mediation issue so I have no authority here (blueboy hasn't mentioned it)  Its just a comment from Jeff.  Are you sure you mean the Nicene creed of 325 and not the one of 381?  I can buy Apostle's Creed of 325 or Nicene 381 but not the assertion of the Nicene creed 325.  (BTW this may be a translation issue if you are quoting a non english book).  To the best of my knowledge there are 0 evangelical churches which utilize the 325 creed that's almost exclusively Eastern Rite churches.  jbolden1517Talk 00:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nicene creed 

message: EN has never denied that Broocks, Bonasso and Murrell were active in Maranatha in the 1980's but the argument cannot be made that EN is the same as Maranatha in practice just because several key leaders were part of Maranatha. Rice Broocks and Steve Murrell were college roommates at Mississippi State University and have been friends since 1978 (see Steve’s blog dated February 18, 2006) – they partnered together in ministry because they were (and are) lifelong friends, not because they were trying to resurrect MCM as MSI. We would also like to point out that, as currently stated in the last paragraph of the links to Maranatha section, Bob Weiner was the "founder and driving force behind Maranatha" and "is in no way a part of [Every Nation]." As stated in this article posted by the Christian Research Institute, Weiner eventually admitted to "struggling with anger, unkindness, contentiousness and a tendency to control." It further states that "four Maranatha elders suggested Weiner take a sabbatical during which time he would
evaluate his 'personal character."   As Rice Broocks also attests in his book, Every Nation in Our Generation (pp. 48-49, used with permission):
:Though there were negatives, we knew there was no such thing as a “perfect church.”  The fact that the leaders truly had a heart for God kept us believing that these issues would eventually get worked out.  Still, concerns surrounding the ministry began to surface.  Many felt that some of its practices were heavy-handed and legalistic.  There were also concerns that mysticism had crept in, placing too much emphasis on subjective experiences rather than the Word of God.  The latter was a charge leveled against many in the charismatic community from the traditional Church at large.  These issues weighed heavily on the hearts of most of the leaders.  Attempts were made to bring about reforms and extricate these negatives from the mix.  
When it became evident that these issues were endemic to Maranatha, Broocks and Murrell supported the 1989 decision that it was better to completely disband Maranatha. Broocks goes on to say that, “It has been said that you learn more in failure than you do in success.  That may be true, but only if you get up and keep trying to succeed.”  Steve Murrell, in his article entitled “My Spiritual Journey,” states: “In my opinion, there were three main flaws that caused Maranatha to self-destruct in 1989: theological mysticism, micro-managing controlling discipleship practices, and an authoritarian leadership style. In my post-Maranatha ministry, I have diligently and prayerfully tried to keep these three deadly viruses out of my life and ministry.” It is clear that the two key leaders of Every Nation not only recognized the problems that were present in Maranatha, but have gone to great lengths to try to ensure that the same issues are not tolerated in Every Nation (more on this has already been explained in our response in the “Doctrine” and proposed rewrite to the “Links to Maranatha” sections of the Talk page.)
Thelma BowlenTalk 08:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: EN's response to the Maranatha issue

message: BB -
The issue of the EveryNation exposed link has come up.  Tik's claim is membership in Maranatha 78-83 (joined 78 and says he was a member for 5 years).  This predates EN by a lot.  He makes a comment about EN, "he contents of this Blog are copyrited 2006 by the author and represent the author's personal experiences and conclusions regarding MCM and EN" but in the blog itself so far there is nothing about Every Nation other than the title and a few allusions to funding methods that they share in common.  Can you explain this link?  I'm hard pressed to see how it is on topic as of yet.  jbolden1517Talk 11:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  EveryNation exposed 

message: Per jbolden's suggestion, we are proposing to add the following under a new section to follow the History Section called 'Church Planting'.
:Every Nation’s strategy for church planting is called the “2010 Initiative". The goal of the 2010 Initiative is for every local EN church to establish or “plant” at least one new church every three years. The ultimate outcome of this initiative would be that, by the year 2010, hundreds of new churches would have been established all over the world. The initiative also envisions that, eventually, all EN churches would be church-planting churches. Because Every Nation's ultimate vision is to eventually have a church in every nation of the world, a particular emphasis is placed on nations where it does not yet have any presence.
:Examples of church-planting churches include the following: the Every Nation church in Manila, Philippines has planted churches in Bangladesh, Malaysia, and Vietnam. The EN church in London has planted a church in Dublin, Ireland; the church in Nashville, Tennessee has planted churches in New York and New Zealand; the EN churches in Sierra Leone have planted several churches in Liberia; and the church in Tarapoto, Peru has planted over a hundred churches in the Amazon Region of South America.
:Every Nation's emphasis on church planting can also be seen in its strategy for world missions.  In Every Nation, world missions is viewed as a launching pad for cross-cultural missionaries who go to the nations, make disciples, plant churches, and then raise up indigenous leaders who can then pastor their churches as well as plant new churches.
:Every Nation has missionaries in some of the nations that have historically been the most resistant to the Gospel, including: Afghanistan,  Bangladesh, China, India, Myanmar, Turkey, Vietnam, and the nations of the Middle East.
Thelma BowlenTalk 08:46, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed New Section called 'Church Planting'

message: Feel free to edit the Freedom of Conscience intro.  I'm trying to put the quote in context but there was no agreement (or even very much discussion) on how best to include this material.  So jump in jbolden1517Talk 09:00, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  intro to freedom of conscience 

message: We would like to insert the following two paragraphs at the beginning of the Structure Section. We think this should replace the current paragraph about what is a convention of churches because this only applies to US churches and it looks like it is just a technical definition from the IRS. This is also in response to jbolden's request for clarification on the relationship between Every Nation and member churches.
:Every Nation Churches provides spiritual leadership for approximately 400 member churches worldwide. This includes the following main responsibilities: 1) maintaining doctrinal orthodoxy; 2) mediating leadership conflicts; 3) assisting in the event of moral failure of a local church pastor or elder; 4) helping with leadership transition in the event of the death or incapacity of the senior pastor; and 5) encouraging member churches to uphold the vision, values and standards of Every Nation.
:Every Nation member churches are fully responsible for the governance and direction of their respective local churches. Member churches responsibilities include: 1) subscribing to the vision, values and standards of Every Nation; 2) supporting official Every Nation conferences & events; 3) contributing 10% of their general revenue to Every Nation which in turn provides for the global oversight function and for the development of resources to support the churches; and 4) recognizing the role of Every Nation’s International Ministry Team in the spiritual leadership of their local churches.
Every Nation 09:20, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Very happy to be including this.  Is there going to be a web reference in the future? jbolden1517Talk 09:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed Edit to Structure Section

message: There are a ton of references to these materials.  I'd like to get some reference to where you get these, lists of books in them....  While these are obvious official references as is they are just short of private information.  I'd like an ISBN, ASIN or weblink.  jbolden1517Talk 10:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ENLI curriculum 

message: OK, let's do it.  Getting these things scanned in and put into wikisources is not going to be an easy endeavor for me, but if that is what it takes to prove that you are being fed spin, then I'm for it.  
I find your comment about a culture of institutional lying a big funny actually.  Because that is exactly what the issue is.  Because of the authority issues, people are afraid to speak out, and so the leadership can say whatever they want and label those who disagree as bitter. 
I really do applaud EN's efforts to be more mainstream like "Lutherans" but I find their need to hide the scandals and other problems past problems indicative that there has been no real heart change. 
The LA thing was not just a sex scandal with financial implications.  It started out as the discovery that a major leader of THE graduate school of campus ministry being discovered to have affrairs with multiple partners over many years.  That's the tip of the iceberg.  The real problem was that some of the very top leaders did not see it or looked the other way even when warned what was going on, which is why it lasted so long. Why didn't they see it?  Because of the Authority problems which came from the shepherding doctrine which EN claims it never practiced or believed in.  That's the real issue.  Can't question your leaders.  And obedience to leaders is more important the moral character.  Of course no one ever "officially" believed this.  That is just the way the system worked.  Every bad system has ostensibly good goals, that's why people buy into it. Anonymou 04:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What you are saying is that EN has an authoritarian culture.  Churches without an authoritarian culture don't have to fight large battles against going to far in control.  Nobody does anything the pastor says, the pastor has to desperate fight for whatever authority he can muster up.  When is the last time you heard a quaker sermon against controlling discipleship?  If you are going to say there is a culture of absolute obedience then we are going to need more evidence.  jbolden1517Talk 05:28, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Now you're talking.  That's exactly it. That is what they are now trying to fix (good) and pretend they never had (bad) The quote below is the only official source I can find so let's talk about it.  Anonymou 05:37, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Thelma's already admitted they came from the Maranatha/Shepherding movement.  There doesn't appear to be much disagreement about what was the doctrine during the 1980s.  jbolden1517Talk 05:28, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Great. If they agree that theit doctrine was influenced by the Shepherding movement, let's get a statement about it in there like the one that was removed. Anonymou 05:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why a lie Part 3 

message: Please remove Campus Missions International (CMI) from our Affiliated Organizations. We do not know who CMI is and we are 100% sure it is not part of Every Nation.
We would also like to make our second request to list our Affiliated Organizations by their current names, i.e. Every Nation Campus Ministries [formerly Victory Campus Ministries]; Every Nation Leadership Institute [formerly Victory Leadership Institute].
We would like to request that Morning Star International and Every Nation Churches and Ministries be removed from Affiliated Organizations. Every Nation Churches and Ministries is exactly the same as Every Nation, and Morning Star International is the former name of Every Nation, which is already explained in the main text as well as the first paragraph of the history re-write we requested last 22 June.
Every Nation 12:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of Affiliated Organizations