Talk:Boris Sarafov

message: Best regards to Blazhe Ristoski ! :)))  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.73.146.73 (talk) 01:47, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Untitled 

message: Why is it an invalid link, ForeignerFromTheEast? iNkubusse? 18:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it does not open. ForeignerFromTheEast 18:21, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, it does not work. ForeignerFromTheEast 19:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Technically, the link to the .gif works just fine. In terms of good citation practice, it would be good to have an exact bibliographic reference to the publication of that newspaper though. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's the front page of the first publication. I think it says "Годъ I., № 1., 9 Іюня, 1913., С.-Петербургъ". iNkubusse? 20:55, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It still does not work for me but since I've had at least one other confirmation, ok then. What does it say? ForeignerFromTheEast 21:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Look, Sarafov clearly says that they (he and the other Macedonians) are not Bulgarians or Serbs, but simply Macedonians. I think that there's no reason why he shouldn't be called a Macedonian revolutionary. iNkubusse?  —Preceding comment was added at 21:58, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok, so I found another way to open the picture. This is from 1913, about 6 years after the death of Sarafov. Also if I'm not wrong, this is a publication of a well known Macedonist Dimitrija Chupovski. There is no other evidence suggesting Chupovski and Sarafov have ever been in contact.  ForeignerFromTheEast 22:19, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

text: This newspaper seems to be quite an entertaining read. On page 3 it says that "Macedonia during Tsar Samuil (976-1014) ruled Albania, Bulgaria, Serbia and Epirus. Also ruled by Macedonian Prince Marko from 1371 to 1394. Also refers to Cyrill and Methodius as "Macedonians". I'd be hard pressed to quialify this as a reliable source. If you've gone as far as to label Samuil "King of Macedonia", might as well throw one more fictitious quote. ForeignerFromTheEast 22:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You know, you're quite an interesting person. Cyril and Methodius were not Bulgarians, and if they weren't Greeks, they were Slavs (not Bulgars). That's a fact. And no matter how much you hate that side of history, Samuil, Cyril and Methodius and Marko are regarded simply as Macedonians by them (Sarafov and the others) and by us (modern Macedonians). They also call the Slavic-speaking population of Macedonia simply Macedonians - that's another thing that looks ridiculous to you. Ah, I really shouldn't discuss about this, but one thing is clear: Sarafov wrote that thing that's in the paper -> he's an ethnic Macedonian. And you're not the one to qualify it as an unreliable source. iNkubusse? 23:32, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He could not have written it because he'd been dead for 6 years. The article is by Chupovski afterall. ForeignerFromTheEast 23:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As we do not know what was the case it is probably better not to make unsourced statments that it may have been written by "Chupovski" as it may have just been a reprint of something Sarafov wrote.Ireland101 00:42, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Refer to the facts above. This newspaper is not a reliable source. By the way it is not an unsourced statement that this is written by Chupovski, because that newspaper in 1913 was indeed printed by Dimitrija Chupovski, 6 years after the death of Sarafov. ForeignerFromTheEast 00:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This may be the case Forigner however I still do not understand why the newspaper is unreliable as it reflects how Macedonians felt in the 1900's. It is probably more reliable then our discussions today about how these people viewed themselves then.Ireland101 00:51, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is unreliable because according to Wikipedia:Reliable sources content should be not be supported by "nationalist feelings" but by academics. ForeignerFromTheEast 00:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for informing me of this Foreigner I was not aware of this. Since this is the case I assume sources from Macedonia or Bulgaria should not be used in articles relating to ether of them as they may have nationalist POV. So a good step that you can take would be removing all Bulgarian sources that are in articles related to Macedonia as you feel that this should happen with Macedonian sources.Ireland101 01:01, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really. Academics could be from both Bulgaria and the Republic of Macedonia. Blogs, etc do not count. ForeignerFromTheEast 01:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, so this article does not violate Wikipedias rules as it is not from a blog but rather from the president of the Macedonian scientific and literary society.Ireland101 01:06, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dimitrija Chupovski? No thanks, read above. ForeignerFromTheEast 01:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dude, Foreigner, you can't just say no, thanks to whatever you don't trust. For example, I don't trust anything that comes from Bulgarian sources (you shouldn't be offended), but there's nothing I can do if I cannot prove their falseness. iNkubusse? 01:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ive listed enough reasons above why this is unreliable source. If you have something to add in concrete then do so. ForeignerFromTheEast 01:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure: it's a reliable source ;) iNkubusse? 01:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I have pointed out why it is not. How do you address my concerns? ForeignerFromTheEast 01:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I told you, he wrote it and later it was published in the newspaper. But the article seems fine to me now, he was pro-Bulgarian oriented in the beginning anyway. iNkubusse?  —Preceding comment was added at 01:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text: And where did he write it? Where is the quote from? ForeignerFromTheEast 02:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The quote is from the newspaper, I don't know where he wrote it, but they surely didn't fabricate it. iNkubusse? 02:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The quote is not from the newspaper because Sarafov has been dead for six years when it was published. Where was it from? ForeignerFromTheEast 02:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, you'll have to check that. But the Russians sure wouldn't let some "Bulgarians" include an counterfeit in their paper. iNkubusse? 02:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So was Chupovski Russian? You claim usage of source, you show where it is from. ForeignerFromTheEast 03:06, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Invalid link 

message: Part 3 of the memoirs.
Complete memoirs.
On the page provided, please refer to the passage: "Истовремено еден руски полковник, некојси Бешков, обиколуваше низ Македонија, и се искажуваше многу неповолно за нас Бугарите во Македонија...". ForeignerFromTheEast 16:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know this, I don't negate it, I mentioned earlier that he thought of himself as Bulgarian, but later he came out with the idea that the Macedonian people are a distinct ethnicity. That's why a Bulgarian revolutionary is not completely appropriate. Just like Krste Misirkov, he wasn't always aware of his distinct nationality, but nevertheless, he realised that later and wrote a whole study. iNkubusse? 17:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When did he come up with the idea of the Macedonians being distinct. In Chupovski's newspaper? That one is out of the question as described earlier. ForeignerFromTheEast 17:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's not, you're not the one to decide. I'll try to find some other sources. iNkubusse? 20:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok then where is it from? ForeignerFromTheEast 20:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text: See my previous message. iNkubusse? 21:10, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References for ethnicity 

message: Will you be providing a link to demonstrate what the source says? ForeignerFromTheEast 16:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What, now you don't trust London Times? I didn't know that it was a Titoist newspaper... BTW, you can check the .pdf file, it's included in the article. iNkubusse? 17:02, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New source 

message: Please, MacedonianBoy, try to behave and act like a responsible editor. I, too, can provide you with a quote in which he says: " ...Истовремено еден руски полковник, некојси Бешков, обиколуваше низ Македонија, и се искажуваше многу неповолно за нас Бугарите во Македонија, правејќи не Срби, што не се достојни за слобода и сл.. По тој повод му напишав едно писмо до гроф Игнатиев, со кого се имав запознаено во Петербург. Му се оплакав на руските конзули, што отворено и даваат поддршка на српската пропаганда во Македонија.... And so what? What you're doing now is simple POV-pushing. Yes, blogs are no source, no matter what they've scanned (if they really have). And the wording "considered xxx in RoM and other counties" - what the hell is that. That's not something you'd expect to see in a encyclopaedia, is it? The article is better as of now and respects both points of you, including his own.
:Just another note which someone interested might wish to read at some time. The other party in this obviously one-party discussion does not have the time to participate here, but does actually have the time to revert me (partially). --Laveol T 20:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You are well aware about his Macedonian ethnicity Laveol, but your behaviour to revert Macedonian users makes me to think again about talking on English Wiki. Till I inform some admins, since they are the users that should decide what is reliable and what not, I won't edit this article. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 20:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I am well aware of what? Well, discussing is far better than edit-warring, but you should know best. I'm amazed you still found time to write here. Btw, do you have a copy of the paper? Cause I read some incredible stuff there. --Laveol T 20:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Additionaly, you are deleting Sarafov's own words from Macedonian Voice magazine and British Times, not above mentioned. You have the scans of the magazine, you can find them everywhere, and I do not see what is wrong with it. Are Sarafov's words making problems? Is this article about him or about this silly edit war that you are creating. "Other countries" can be reformulated, not deleted since that is Polish source. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 20:20, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I found, instead making articles on the Macedonian Wikipedia, I am wasting my time convincing a common user to stop reverting me. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 20:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: (edit-conflict)Wow, nice, and then I'll provide an American source claiming he was Bulgarian. So, we'll have to create a table with scholars for both views. Just like the naming issue. And btw Rocznik Slawistyczny is a linguist. I understand this is the only thing you could google on this, but how's he relevant? --Laveol T 20:24, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It was added by other user (on MK WIKI take a look first). It is more reliable and more important what Sarafov thought about himself, how he felt, what he said about the Bulgarians in IMRO then present day opinions, right? I used that, his own words and you reverted me. That's not acceptable, right?--MacedonianBoy (talk) 20:30, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Plus this, when I say reliable source, I mean about his words written in Russian in the newspaper Macedonian Voice:
--MacedonianBoy (talk) 20:39, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You provided nothing reliable. You didn't read any of these and just added them, no? And now you're trying to convince me you're acting like a decent wiki editor?! Really, you need to act lot more seriously.--Laveol T 20:41, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Should I convince you?! Quoting text is serious enough, but depends if you like the quoted text.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 20:43, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Quoting a text you just said you've only copy-pasted from another wiki. How should I put it...--Laveol T 20:45, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No comment about off topic statements. I have no time about that. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 20:48, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Off-topic? How's the fact that you've copy-pasted the stuff here off-topic? I should've guessed you were just playing yet again. Assuming good faith does not serve me well every time I try doing it.--Laveol T 20:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Nice. And why do you remove the link to Macedonian Bulgarians? He is a considered a Bulgarian from the region of Macedonia, so what's the problem with the link? --Laveol T 20:52, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Pfff, and just to really add some off-topic: I was about to have an edit-conflict with myself due to some flaw in the site. Thankfully I saw it before hitting the save page button.--Laveol T 20:56, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Better to use just Bulgarians because "Macedonians (Bulgarians)" is only known in BG and here on Wikipedia. In other words, new Bulgarian terminology. It is more clear to use the word Bulgarian for your point of view.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 21:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice, but you do actually use that word (or used to actually). The link just leads you to the specific article on Bulgarians of that specific region, which then leads you to the article on Bulgarians as a whole. --Laveol T 21:06, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's not complicated the things, it would be better.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 21:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: PS:I added the word "now" since that country included territories from Macedonia, Greece, Serbia (I am not sure about Turkey).--MacedonianBoy (talk) 21:07, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong. It did not. Didn't you know that? --Laveol T 21:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well you know I am not interested in Balkan history (except mine).--MacedonianBoy (talk) 21:12, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I stand corrected - the Western outlands were annexed by Serbia later. But still, you do mention that he died in Sofia, which is the capital of Bulgaria even today. This makes it quite pointless and absurd to have the "now part"--Laveol T 21:14, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Oh, boy, and now we had an edit conflict while we were trying to make the same edit... I think I need a little break :)--Laveol T 21:18, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Which Western Parts?? As far as I now Bulgaria too annexed foreign territories too, non Bulgarian territories. Didn't I mentioned Sofia? I think it is written in the infobox.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 21:20, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

text: For that uninformed user that reverts all the time: It should be very useful to review what are you reverting and please take a look again at your history book about the Principality of Bulgaria. Please do not vandalize or I should ask for help. Thanks--MacedonianBoy (talk) 17:56, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No need for threats, please. As for the annexation part, I cannot understand what you're trying to say. If by foreign territories you mean foreign-populated territories, then you are making a mistake. Bulgaria has annexed (or liberated) only Bulgarian-populated lands, thank you very much. --Laveol T 18:08, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: On the discussion under this one, someone showed an academic reference that confirmed the existence of these statements of Sarafov's, that the Macedonians are a separate nation. Radko Kovac (talk) 03:54, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: I also detected a primary source, that actually is quite disputable. The document itself is disputable, It has no stamp of IMARO, and no signatures. Also, blogs and websites like https://www.promacedonia.org are depreciated and have not been allowed on Wikipedia, as I know. 79.126.188.253 (talk) 23:53, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The source that you've indicated is not a primary source. The document is not a disputable at all it has the stamp of the Bulgarian National Archives and it's handwritten by Dame Gruev, which is proven. This is only the first sheet of the letter. The site www.promacedonia.org is not a blog, but books archive and such sites are preferred on Wikipedia, since you can quickly check the source and to see the context of the statements. --StanProg (talk) 12:46, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The full text of the letter is published along with a facsimile in Macedonia. Documents and Materials (Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Sofia, 1979, pp 531 - 537). If you know of a study which says that the letter is forged, bring it on. Tropcho (talk) 23:10, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The content of the document can be checked here: Letter No. 534 from the General Staff of the Second Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Region to the Bulgarian Government on the position of the insurgent population, requestioning assistance from Bulgaria; the original is in Bulgarian and is published in "Macedonia: documents and materials", Voin Bozhinov et al. Bulgarin Academy of sciences, Institute of history, Sofia; 1978. It was sent with a letter dated September 17, 1903 to Dr. Kozhouharov, in charge of the Bulgarian agency in Bitola, to be forwarded to the government in Sofia; ЦДНА, ф.176, оп 1, а.е. 1972, (л.л. 243-244) The scans of the document are also available on the same site. The letter is mentioned also on that site, which is translatation in English by Will Firth from  the book National Liberation and Libertarian Federalism, Sofia 1992, Georgi Khadzhiev, pp. 99-148. The text: On 9th September 1903 Damyan Gruyev, Boris Sarafov and Lozanchev met to discuss the hopeless situation. They prepared a statement to the Bulgarian government which was sent to Sofia through the Bulgarian mission in Bitola. It read: "... Having been placed in leading positions of the popular movement here, we appeal to you in the name of the oppressed Bulgarian population to come to its assistance in as effective a manner a possible - through military intervention..." As a source is cited: Hristo Silyanov, Osvoboditelnite borbi v Macedonia i Odrinsko, pp. 434-435.. The document is cited also in the book "A history of the Balkans: a regional overview from a Bulgarian perspective", volume 2 от A History of the Balkans, EM texts, Plamen Tsvetkov, 1993, , p. 83.. 88.203.200.74 (talk) 11:45, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of a primary source