Talk:Kray twins

message: Didn't they own the International Sporting Club, at the South end of Berkeley Square (now site of the saatchi bldg.).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.148.112 (talk) 06:06, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Casino

message: Should the death of Teddy Smith not be mentioned here. He disappeared after an argument with the Krays and according to Nipper Read he was the second murder victim Reggie admitted to during his death bed. Plus Freddie Foreman admitted to disposing of his body in the documentary 'Kray Twins - Kill Order". I felt like including this in the Kray Twins wiki page but felt I should mention this here before I done that. I'm new to wiki so I don't know if I'm doing this right. Apologies if I've got this wrong.I won't add it to the page if I'm told here I shouldn't.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.65.157.210 (talk) 21:48, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Teddy Smith

message: I have substantially filled this article out, giving it some more structure and lots more detail, after reading The Profession of Violence.  A fascinating read.  It still needs some polishing, links added etc. --192.43.227.18 07:54, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I must say that I am very impressed with your additions to this aritcle.  I think that they've really improved it.  Thank you for making them.  Is your username GoldenRing? Acegikmo1 06:10, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite

message: *For those interested, a WikiProject regarding crime in Great Britain has been proposed. MadMax 19:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[User:Lucy-marie/WikiProject British Crime|WikiProject British Crime]]

message: So how can diptheria, a respiratory disease lead to mental illness? 
I'm removing this reference.It doesn't make sense and is purely speculative.
Rrose Selavy 15:08, 7 Nov 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you know anything about the drugs used in the forties and fifties to treat serious illnesses such as diphtheria, and their side-effects?   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.76.52 (talk) 14:16, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

text: Maybe diptheria is some kind of new illness caused by dipteres ? 109.212.160.253 (talk) 15:11, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Diptheria

message: It is well known Ronnie was gay, why can't we just say that in the article??! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.32.117.101 (talk • contribs) 
:The article says he was bisexual. I have also re-categorised the article, allowing us to add this article to British Mobsters, and place the sexuality of Ron on his feeding page - - to say Reg was LGBT is factually incorrect. Rgds, --Trident13 13:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd accept the 'bisexual' description of Ron if there were any sources showing he ever had a sexual relationship with a woman. Otherwise I'd have thought it was common knowledge he was gay. If anything, Reg is the more likely 'bisexual' twin. Given the illegality of male homosexuality in the UK up until 1969 and the potential for blackmail etc its not a minor point here. Plutonium27 10:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sexuality

message: There was a long-running campaign, with much celebrity support, to have the twins released from prison
I don't recall much celebrity support - only Barbara Windsor. Is there a reference for this statement? Apepper 23:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Celebrity support? 

message: The BBC Crime site is now closed (http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/caseclosed/thekrays.shtml) so I have deleted the hyperlink to that site.--ukexpat 14:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: I have again removed the LGBT category from the article, but happy for it to be part of the LGBT project. Here's the logic - Ron was Gay/Bisexual, but Reggie was straight
:::No, he wasn't. See Pearson's book - both twins were gay - and also the film The Notorious Krays (broadcast most recently in UK on 25 May 2015).--84.45.236.96 (talk) 14:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, it's not. --84.45.236.96 (talk) 14:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

text: OK, but the article covers both people, so untagging it is as inaccurate as tagging it. AND, the article I referenced (and you removed) quotes Reg's gay lover from prison, so ... anyway, I'm no Kray expert, so I'll leave it. However, you can't have categories on redirects (I removed them from Reginald Kray and Ronald Kray yesterday). You can certainly put them back but someone else will probably remove them at some point without you noticing. I'm readding them to this article until you can find a solution. I understand that two separate articles is probably a waste. TAnthony 14:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: After a bit of research, I'm with the sub articles idea - at least for Ronnie. Appologies for reverting your previous edits, but as the section you renamed "Criminology and Sexuality" was already tagged sources, and as you didn't add anything, I rv'd it back. OK, here's the logic - Firstly, the article still needs a lot of development; secondly, exploration of Ronnie's motivation needs a bit more exploration: the bio I skim read in the library this afternoon certainly has a lot of psycotic/murder/sexuality discussion in it. Thirdly, the factual tagging of Reg is incorrect at present, and the present "sole article" structure doesn't allow for different dates/causes of death. Thoughts? The stub you placed on my talk page would seem a good start, we write a similar for both brothers and keep the crime issues/chronology of it here? Best Regards, --Trident13 18:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding the content of this article and Reg's sexuality, I'll leave that to you and the experts; I suppose many a straight person has had a "gay lover" in prison, LOL. As far as the stubs, I don't know how they will be received in general, but it seems the only way to keep the categories separate without splitting this article itself) which would make two largely redundant articles, I'm sure). We can just add "hidden" edit notes that the stubs not be expanded. TAnthony 18:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: LGBT

message: Another article on Tower_of_London states that the brothers were held there for a few days in 1952, and that they were the last prisoners there.  Shouldn't that be mentioned in this article? LinuxSneaker 15:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tower of London 

message: I deleted driving it deep into his neck, twisting the blade as this is not needed in an encylopedic article, it is just sensationalism. Sue Wallace 18:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Kindly replace it - it is a verbatim (sourced) quote from a witness statement given to Leonard Read and also given as sworn testimony against Reg Kray. Thank you. Lion King 18:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not disputing that it is accurate, but is it needed here do you think? Sue Wallace 18:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolultely, because as you say it is accurate the one thing that an encyclopedia must be. You can't water down this horrific senseless murder. Cheers, Lion King 18:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Thank you. Take care yourself, Lion King 19:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sensationalism

message: 4 links removed - Tv Footage - no indication from clip information or respective Uploader profiles, that uploader have rights to the footage or are associated with the TV companies/production entities responsible for it. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 12:37, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  YouTube links removed 

message: Did the Kray brothers really have all the non-English ancestry stated in the article? This family tree, from a usually reliable site, goes over most of their recent ancestors and they're all English (and all married in Protestant churches). All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 09:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I recall reading in one of Reggie Krays books that they did have Romany and Jewish ancestry but it was pretty distant. Sue Wallace (talk) 16:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If anyone is seriously interested, the "Kray" originally were ethnic Roma from Galicia in the old Austrian Empire. The mother was a mixture of ethnic Irish and Jews. Genealogy can be found on the web.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:45:490F:DC0E:38F1:13E4:84:27B1 (talk) 02:11, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Who were the Krays' non-English ancestors? All ancestry shown here and here is English. I know various articles attributed this ancestry or that to the Krays, but has any of it ever been proven? All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 08:20, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Those user-generated genealogy pages aren't reliable sources, and say nothing about the Kray twins' ethnic background. The citations you have twice removed are reliable sources, one of which is Ron Kray's obituary. Here, in a direct quote, Ronnie said he is "proud to have Jewish blood." The ancestry information should remain in the article. DrQuinnEskimoWoman (talk) 05:43, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The Mirror is a tabloid and the interviewee may not be a reliable source (he himself is recalling an older interview that he performed, so I wouldn't call it a "direct quote"). Again, who were the Krays' Irish, Romani, and/or Jewish ancestors? It's pointless to still be reporting such information in an age when it is much more easily documented than ever before, when there's no evidence to support it. Nothing is lost by its exclusion from the article. P.S., the Krays' genealogy was compiled on the website of William Addams Reitwiesner, a genealogist so reputed that he even had his own Wikipedia article. So it's not user-generated. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 10:00, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Jewish or other immigrant ancestry?

message: In the opening paragraph, Ronnie is referred to as bisexual, while in the later imprisonment section he is called homosexual. Is this a continuity error, or is there confusion/debate about the nature of his sexuality? Or perhaps there's no distinction in vernacular British English between bisexual and homosexual? There's most certainly a distinction in the States between the two, so the article seems to disagree with itself. Suggestions? Diyforlife (talk) 01:03, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a distinction but I dispute the phrase "was bisexual in a period when it was illegal in the UK". Bisexuality has never been illegal in the UK, I contend homosexuality has never been illegal, only male homosexual acts. And did he become heterosexual when 'it' became legal. Very badly worded  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cannonmc (talk • contribs) 23:04, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bisexual/gay continuity 

message: Where is there proof that Ronnie and Roxy Mitchell are based on the Krays?  There is practically no resemblance in character types, this seems like an extremely tenuous link to me. Douglasnicol (talk) 23:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If that's in answer to me, I still don't see the connection with two female Mitchell characters in Eastenders, the only Eastenders connection I can see is Barbara Windsor. Douglasnicol (talk) 23:59, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Irrelevant rant. -- 74.111.235.97 (talk) 02:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: EastEnders connection?

message: The lead states that "Ronnie remained in prison until his death on 17 March 1995" but in the body of the article it says that "Ronnie was eventually once more certified insane and lived the remainder of his life in Broadmoor Hospital". Broadmoor Hospital is a high-security facility and many of the patients are referred there from within the criminal justice system but it is definitely not a prison so at least one of the statement is untrue. 217.28.6.210 (talk) 18:21, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did Ronnie remain in prison or was he transferred to a hospital? 

message: There appears to be a Stean Street in the Hoxton district of Hackney, but no *Stene* Street as quoted in the article.  Someone from East London who is knowledgeable about the Krays might be able to fix this.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.113.227.66 (talk) 16:22, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Stene Street" or "Stean Street", Hoxton? 

message: What about this account?
 BRITAIN'S MOST NOTORIOUS TWINS: A PROFILE OF REGGIE AND RONNIE KRAY BY GUY ADAMS 
The Krays born on October 24, 1933 into a life of crime and grew up in a slum area of Bethnal Green.
Their father, Charlie senior, was hardly the ideal role model. At the outbreak of the Second World War he was called up to join the Army, but deserted.
Frequently away from home and up to no good, the twins probably saw more of the police, who kept visiting their house at 178 Vallance Road in Bethnal Green, than they did their father.
It was up to their mother, Violet, to keep the family together, which was a struggle. For a while, her three sons stayed out of trouble, and spent much of their spare time in the boxing ring, where the twins would win many a competition. However, by their late teens, Ronnie and Reggie were also fighting on the streets, and they soon started their own gang.
When they turned 18 in 1951, they decided that military service was not for them. They spent most of their National Service in the guardroom. Matters came to a head when they were arrested for assaulting a policeman, and were imprisoned in Shepton Mallet, Somerset.
Upon their return to the East End, it was clear they would never settle into regular lives. Their first business venture was a club called the Regal, off the Mile End Road, which looked like a dive from the outside but which the Krays turned into a glamorous, fashionable nightspot.
In their sharp suits, they did their best to maintain, publicly at least, a veneer of respectability, but they were involved in just about every form of criminality imaginable, from straightforward theft to gang violence and - ultimately - murder.
The brothers and their gang 'The Firm' ruled the East End of London with a brutal savagery that included murder and torture.
Of the two siblings, Ronnie was considered the more dangerous. He was imprisoned in 1957 for GBH. While locked up, he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, which partly explained his violent tendencies. Unusually for that time, Ronnie was also publicly bisexual, which Reggie found difficult to accept.
Despite Reggie also being jailed in 1959, the Krays' 'business' activities went from strength to strength, and by the Sixties they were hobnobbing with stars such as Barbara Windsor, and eminent politicians such as Lord Boothby, with whom Ronnie is likely to have had an affair.
Ronnie remained unmarried, and Reggie's marriage to Frances Shea in 1965 only lasted for eight months. She died in 1967. It is thought that she committed suicide, although according to one account, Frances was murdered by Ronnie, for reasons that are unclear.
In the middle of 1968, the twins’ older brother Charlie were arrested for murder. Ronnie had shot a rival gang member called George Cornell in the face when he was drinking in a pub, and Reggie, normally the 'gentle' one, had repeatedly stabbed gang member Jack 'The Hat' McVitie in the face and neck for not following orders.
Both men were given life sentences, with a recommendation that they should serve at least 30 years. Charlie was sent down for ten years, for being an accessory to the murder of McVitie. Ronnie died in prison in 1995 aged 61 and Reggie died in 2000 aged 66. 
Last year, Freddie 'Brown Bread' Foreman, revealed for the first time the gang started by the brothers, known as The Firm, had plans to execute the brothers just before their arrests.
'The twins were a nuisance and causing grief for everyone else. Some people felt they had to go,' he said.
'If they hadn't been nicked then they would have gone missing very soon afterwards – for ever.' 
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2989569/How-arts-loving-schoolgirl-beautiful-mistaken-Brigitte-Bardot-ended-life-tragic-Mrs-Reggie-Kray.html#ixzz3sXFkMCEv
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:184:4002:12A1:8C42:43E7:584D:3206 (talk) 20:04, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The last paragraph in particular suggests a hijacking by someone wanting to portray Charlie (not even one of the twins) in a good light. Apart from anything else it's written very poorly.86.0.202.47 (talk) 21:49, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro 

message: There isn't a shred of objective evidence -- from brain scans, blood or urine tests -- that Ronald Kray had an illness that affected his behavior. Without such objective evidence no such claims should be included. Nicmart (talk) 20:45, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The tests you describe cannot diagnose Ronnie's conditions - schizophrenia and ASPD. The authorities were obviously convicted he was severely mentally ill - he was confined to Broadmoor Hospital for the rest of his life. Jim Michael (talk) 11:06, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Mental illness" 

message: Is there a reason Roberta Kray (Reggie's second wife) isn't mentioned in the article?  86.136.123.224 (talk) 23:17, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roberta Kray 

message: Just a reminder that under WP:RCAT rules, it is not appropriate to add categories to this article which apply to only one or the other of the twins rather than both of them. A category which only applies to one of the pair, such as the different years in which they died and the fact that Ronnie was gay, belong on the redirect from the individual twin to which they apply, not on the merged article about both of them — and both of those redirects are already properly filed in the categories in question. 
Accordingly, please do not re-add categories to this article which only describe one of the twins; the article is already accessible from those categories via the redirects. Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 18:01, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Just cleaned up both the article and the redirects. Note that there are four redirects: Reggie Kray, Reginald Kray, Ronald Kray, and Ronnie Kray. HairyWombat 18:42, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categorisation reminder 

message: Morrissey's song "The last of the famous international playboys" and "Whitechapel"(2nd season) starring Rupert Penry-Jones  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.166.26.112 (talk) 12:09, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The song Niggas in Paris by Jay-Z and Kanye West which is currently hugely popular is about the twins. Should be added.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.23.25.142 (talk) 05:53, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional appearances in pop culture

message: Really, the sole notable feature of these two men is the fact they were notorious criminals in the 1950s and 1960s in England. So, it's a surprise to not see any information on what they were convicted for, that earned them life sentences. Yes, they ran rackets, reportedly killed people but that is just what people say they were "involved with" (or what they say they did). 
What crimes were they actually convicted of, that sent them to prison? This seems like basic information on a profile of criminals so it's strange that it's omitted. Newjerseyliz (talk) 22:02, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conviction...for what? 

message: There are several differing dates of birth for The Kray Twins throughout the article. Can anybody provide the correct one with a source? 2.223.86.62 (talk) 17:46, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of birth 

message: The Infobox states that Ronnie died in Broadmoor, but the Deaths section states that he died in Wexham Park Hospital. Shouldn't these be consistent? Brian Hardy 54 (talk) 21:51, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Place of Death 

message: What sources were used to support the reasoning for the twins' criminal behavior? After looking on the talk page, I noticed that Ronnie may have killed his ex-wife. I believe more information concerning the twins' behavior is extremely important to include in this article. In my opinion, the article is good; however, the information about the twins' criminal behavior is not being supported. Chilogan (talk) 14:42, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criminal Behavior 

message: An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect The cray twins. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  B.Rossow · talk 22:34, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The cray twins" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: a bit overly poetic perhaps? "Reggie died from terminal cancer after being released from prison on compassionate grounds aged 66 on 1 October 2000" is a lot more descriptive and less flowery.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:A040:19E:7152:311B:9948:1CE2:7AA (talk) 18:35, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Reggie died a free man, in his sleep on 1 October 2000 at the age of 66" 

message: "Celebrity status" in particular.  Not so much an entry as a novel/movie pitch. Encylcopedias need edits. 208.125.68.34 (talk) 23:34, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  So way too long 

message: Why are we quoting a biographer for the claim that both brothers were "gay", when Ronnie's autobiography indicates that he self-identified as bisexual? This is a contradiction. Dimadick (talk) 11:59, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Gay" 

message: [RESOLVED]
Citation 4 is a link to an episode of the Forgotten History series, made by Adrian Gray. This series is a comedy which intentionally satirises and presents false information regarding historical people/events, and is not a viable citation. I would change this, but I am not Wikipedia-Literate￼ enough to be sure what I'm doing. Vegemike (talk) 14:19, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now removed the citation in question. Sorry for the delay, I was making sure what I was doing was correct. Vegemike (talk) 15:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bad citation 

message: There are 2 references to "Donoghue" but nothing more about this person:
1. "Donoghue told the twins directly that he was not prepared to be cajoled into pleading guilty"
2. "With Donoghue's testimony, Hart was arrested"
Who is Donoghue? 192.55.54.50 (talk) 02:08, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It’s presumably referring to Albert Donoghue, Reggie’s right-hand man (also spelled Donaghue and he also used the surname Barry, not to be confused with Ian Barrie). But he’s not mentioned once previously in the article. If I have time maybe I’ll add in a reference somewhere to establish who Albert is first 2A00:23C6:95CE:B401:4CF5:E505:DE8B:B7FD (talk) 10:47, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is Donoghue? 

message: They were fraternal not identical twins they barely look alike 2A00:23CC:C204:4C01:2A31:6F1E:9CFB:F04A (talk) 08:27, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  The lead is wrong