Talk:Vojvodina/Archive 1

message: Shouldn't we add that ethnic Vojvodina Hungarians refer to their region as Vajdaság? --Muhamedmesic 16:20, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's one of the official names for the region, yes. What about the other ethnic minorities? The article lists Serbian, Hungarian, Slovak, Romanian, Ruthenian and Croatian as the official languages so presumably there must be (five?) variants of the name? -- ChrisO 16:50, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It's actually Vájdaság, but I doubt it's official (and will check out asap). Slovaks would use Vojvodina, as well as the Croats (the lovely Serbo-croatian language is my mother tongue!), whereas Romanians tend to use 'Voivodina'. Ruthenians? Gotta ask my ex. She's one. Muhamedmesic 19:46, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: Just to derive a bit, the amount of Hungarians showed in the list of population seems be a bit low (and the amount of Serbians somehow too high). From where was taken that figure? Is that an objective source? --Alessandro Riolo 21:05, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Data is official data from 2002 census. In census, everyone can freely declare nationality, even a non-existant one. Nikola 06:53, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text:  The link to the source is right there at the bottom of the article. --Shallot
The language mentioned is not Slovak, it's Slovenian. 158.193.85.212 13:35, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: No, it is not Slovenian, it is Slovak. --Joy [shallot] 18:14, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Name of Vojvodina?

message: This "emperor" has a fair bit of space for such a small and relatively insignificant person. Just because he called himself emperor that doesn't mean we shouldn't mention him like just another local noble, and note the "imperial" status just as a curiosity... Other, more important things should have descriptive maps instead. --Joy [shallot] 22:48, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A map of king Dragutin's areas would be useful, because he's an actual Serbian king recognized in the lineage and one that lasted for 32 years. Maps of Vojvodina inbetween those periods of independence/autonomy should also be provided, because  they were notable too. A map of the Turkish provinces, a map closing up on the parts of the Military Frontier in Vojvodina, and that one that has the 1867 comitatuses too. All these things lasted much longer than Jovan Nenad so it's not painting a neutral picture of history to concentrate on one and not the other. --Joy [shallot] 11:16, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jovan Nenad 

message: I don't want do drag about, but there are some facts in this article that are historcly doubtfull. Perhaps it is better to say that they are not in the right context. For example there is slim mention of the local Croats, and Srijem (wich is one of the three parts of voivodina, other two beeing Backa & Banat) was part of Croat kindom. Perhaps it is important to say that northern Backa was first included in Kingdom SHS because of high percentige of Croats in it(it's capital Subotica had a croat majority then(it was smaller than off course:)) Also, that the part of Backa which is now in Hungary (socalled "Bajski trokut" -Baja triangle)also had a croatian majority, and because of that was left to Hungary, in words of N.Pasic(serbian pm) "We have too much catolics already". Also some of the serbian states in high midlle ages in this territory were serbian only in the fact that theirs ruler was ethnic serb, vasal of the hungarian king, and not because of the population in their soil. Also, there is no mention of rebelion in the early 7th century by croat dux Ljudevit against the Frankish and Bulgarian control of the region(rebelion wasn't strictly ethnic as it included territory from today Austria to Bulgaria(and southern Vojvodina,which is important in this context). I know that primarly aspect of this article is serbian part in history of that region, but I think that is important to underline it ethnic diversity, and historicly serbians had been ethnicly present in significant numbers only after 1690 (great migrations of the serbs) and not necesary a majority (Vojvodina was colonised by many people in the Habsouburg empire, it even had a german minority! (witch was banished after ww2)) So my greatest complaint on this article is that is ethnicly exclusive and that it does not comprehends whole history of this teritory. User:193.198.145.40
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I do not see a problem that you include mention of Ljudevit rebellion or mention that Croats were majority in Subotica. However, you are wrong about Serbian population of Vojvodina. Serbs are majority in Vojvodina since 1526 (not since 1690) and there were also many Serbs in Vojvodina before 1526 (especially in Srem). User:PANONIAN
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History doubtful or not, this article needs serious rebalancing. "History" section takes about 2/3 of it and IMO it should be moved to a separate article, with just a couple of paragraphs left in for a casual reader. Ditto for other sections (Geography, Politics) -- they need a couple of brief paragraphs to give a reader an idea about it. For example, "Politics" section should definitely mention the broad spectrum of opinions about Province's authonomy, regardless of whether it's mentioned in another articles. Duja 13:07, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: History again

message: The map "Dukedom of Salan" is a piece of crap. Since when is Romania part of Bulgaria, and since when is Glad Bulgarian? Glad and Morut were some of the first Romanians to rule that area. Change the map! It should say Romania, or nothing at all, because Romania didn't exist as a state back then, but it also wasn't part of Bulgaria, that's for sure!
--Matei Tache 23:56, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently of the three, only Gelu was Romanian. Back then there were some Bulgarians in what is now Romania and there were some Romanians in what is now Bulgaria. :-) bogdan 23:27, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The map is wrong 

message: Ok, here is why some of your edits are wrong:
* "northern-most province of Serbia and Montenegro"
Well, Vojvodina is province of Serbia, not of Serbia-Montenegro, while Serbia have only 2 provinces: the one is northern, and the other is southern, so the word "northern-most" is not appropriate.
* "six languages which all enjoy officialdom to a varying degree"
All these 6 languages are official on provincial level, so it is wrong to write that they "enjoy officialdom to a varying degree", since they all enjoy officialdom to a SAME degree. Also, to write that "It has no fewer than six languages" is wrong too, since it has many languages, and these 6 are only official ones. 
* "the founder of several newspapers and magazines in Vojvodina's national languages"
The term "national language" is simply not used in Serbia, so please do not change this. PANONIAN (talk) 19:17, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  For Ragusan 

message: Just to explain difference between official and national language: "National languge" could be a language of nation (country) or language of nation (ethnic group). It is clear that Vojvodina is not a country, while Serbia is not defined as a national country. Officially, Serbia is a state of CITIZENS, not a state of nations, thus official languages of Serbia are OFFICIAL LANGUAGES OF CITIZENS, not a "national languages of ethnic groups". PANONIAN (talk) 01:56, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  For Ragusan or Celtmist or who that anonymous user might be 

message: :::::::This debate is getting boring. Celtmist, you must understand one small thing. Now I am both a British citizen with an interest in language AND born to parents from the Yugoslav Diaspora in the UK. To me, as to most, official language does indeed mean 'language of constitution' when in fact it is the states official language. Serbia and Montenegro on the other hand recognizes so many languages spoken in Vojvodina as official for that region. That's what they say, and what we have to accept, regardless of the correct term. It is true that the non-Slavic languages of Vojvodina are NOT of the same status as Albanian is since 2002 in Macedonia (in that university students of foreign languages must be reasonably  accomplished in both official languages), but that is how it is when officialdom applies to regions and not entire national bodies. I hope this is now clearer to you. Evlekis 25 December 2005
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Just one thing: Vojvodina does not have a constitution, but it have a statute (and these languages are official according to that statute). So, what is a big difference between statute and constitution when we talk about official languages? Is statute not a kind of constitution, just with a lower importance? PANONIAN (talk) 00:43, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Change the subject gentlemen

message: Constitutional changes were pushed through in 1989 by Milosevec that stripped both Kosovo and Vojvodina of their status of autonomy. This is by the government in Belgrade. Autonomy was NOT restored - it is widely disputed by one and all (hence, this discussion). However, the fact remains that the status of autonomy does not exist (Kosovo's status will be 'discussed' this year sometime). You stated to me that status was restored by the UN in 1999, however, the following website has an article from 2000 that discussed an opposition (hence, status was not restored in 1989 as you previously stated).
http://www.iwpr.net/archive/bcr/bcr_20000804_4_eng.txt
You can go on spouting the autonomy of this and that, but you cannot deny that it was not restored (or please 'educate' me by sending me articles that I can read that state this restoration of sorts). You can twist it around any way you want, but next time please note that wiki edits are not vandalism - you quickly jump to conclusions and judgments. This is not good practice.
Rarelibra 6JAN2006
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Listen: the LEVEL of autonomy as it was in 1974 was not restored, not the autonomy itself. Autonomy was never abolished. This is official web site of Vojvodina, everything is there, please read it carefully:
* http://www.vojvodina.sr.gov.yu/
PANONIAN (talk) 19:20, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Autonomy of Vojvodina 

message: Hard to believe that there has been no history worth mentioning here since WWII!! Nfitz 18:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lack of post-WWII history 

message: User:Ceha has added various material to the History section of this page. I reverted it for the following reasons:
#The section in this article should be brief. The main article is History of Vojvodina and all elaborations should be placed there. Only the essential stuff should go into this article
#Some of additions OK, most of it was Croatian POV
#All additions had terible speling and gramar in common. I had no nerve to sort them out.
Duja 14:13, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ceha's edits 

message: I have reverted the latest edits to the history section.  I don't care about the POV but please put additional historical items about the history of Vojvodina in the History of Vojvodina article.  The history section here is entirely too long -- it should be a basic skeletal outline only.  Also, please copy edit before posting.  I realize many of us are non-native English speakers but there are resources out there for free (e.g, a spell checker at Spellcheck.net *).  As far as placenames go, check ones like "Mohazcs" on Wikipedia (Mohács?) before using strange hybrid spellings.
*not an endorsement
LuiKhuntek 23:15, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Put history in [[History of Vojvodina]]

message: For Lui: The DKMT euroregion have not one, but 3 official names, in the 3 main languages used there. The fact that web site you looked at in its English version show name "Tisza" instead of "Tisa" is because the largest part of this river is in Hungary, thus the Hungarian name is used, but that does not mean that only this name is official and other one not. I saw many of your recent changes, and I do not agree with some of them. I do not agree that the name used as a title for one article should be used in every other article which mention that term. For example, if the article about Tisa/Tisza river is titled Tisza and not Tisa, that does not mean that we have to use name Tisza in every article which mention this river. I agree that article itself should be titled Tisza because largest part of it is Hungary, but if we write about part of the river in Serbia, then it is Tisa, not Tisza. Same thing is with DKMT euroregion. Danube is an English name, while Kris and Mures rivers are not located in Serbia, thus despite the fact that Serbian names for these rivers are Kriš and Moriš, we do not have to write these names in Serbian. However, river Tisa/Tisza is located in Serbia, and since this is Serbia-related article, Serbian name is the best solution. The one thing is to have proper titles for the articles, and another to use names in other articles. PANONIAN (talk) 14:19, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't care which form is used but was trying to match the reference here at Vojvodina to the form used in the Wikipedia article which is Danube-Kris-Mures-Tisza.  You have presented good evidence that this is not the most common form (and maybe not the official English form).  Maybe the article on the Euroregion should be changed as well.  However, I disagree that the form should change depending on the context.  English Wikipedia should use the primary English form (especially if that is the article title) whether the article is concerning Serbia, Hungary, or Romania.  For example, I would not write "On 7 May, NATO bombs hit the Chinese Embassy in 貝爾格萊德, killing three Chinese journalists and outraging Chinese public opinion" just because the subject is Chinese. (From: Kosovo_War#The_NATO_bombing_campaign) LuiKhuntek 06:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Certainly in Serbian Wikipedia "Srem" should be used, but this is English Wikipedia and the article title is Syrmia.  Even if the "Syrmia" form is not used in every article, there should at least be parenthetical reference to it.  (For example, "The city is in Srem (Syrmia) on the river...").  Otherwise, not all readers will make the connection when linked to Syrmia. LuiKhuntek 06:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

text: But now, Panonian, you're creating a bastard. I know there's no established English name for Tisa/Tisza so the Hungarian spelling was adopted, but the English name of the region is officially spelled with Tisza. So, it's either "Dunav-Kriš-Mureš-Tisa" or "Danube-Kris-Mures-Tisza" but I don't think that "inter-versions" are appropriate. As for Srem/Srijem/Syrmia, the latter name was taken as a compromise for the article; I basically agree that it should be "Srem" in Serbia-related articles, but not overly strongly. Thus, whatever. Duja 14:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Euroregion

message: I am sorry Ceha, But Greater Croatian POV is not acceptable for this article. The purpose of this history section is to briefly show the ORIGINS of Vojvodina and to show the time periods when the region of Vojvodina was a political subject. I will discuss here your changes one by one:
*Vojvodina was never part of independent Croatia, thus adding Croatia to the list of the countries to which Vojvodina belonged in history is not correct.
*According to information I have, not entire Syrmia, but only western part of it was part of the state of Ljudevit Posavski. See this map as example:
*http://www.croatia-in-english.com/images/maps/800s.jpg
Please provide a source which claim that ENTIRE Syrmia was part of this state.
*Stefan Dragutin was de facto independent ruler. At first, he was a vassal of the Hungarian king, but since the central power in Hungary collapsed soon, he was independent ruler. Reference that king of Hungary was also a king of Croatia is ridiculous, since according to his title, he was a king of many countries (also a king of Serbia among other). So, there is no reason to mention only Croatia (this is not article about Croatia, if you did not noticed).
*Also, to write only how Hungarian kings viewed Vojvodina, and not to write how other rulers or people who lived there viewed it is POV. Besides this, how you know how Hungarian kings viewed Vojvodina? You asked them perhaps?
*I do not see why you mentioned battle Mohač. This is not article about history of Hungary.
There are few of other your edits, but they are not worthy of commenting. First of all, there is separate History of Vojvodina article, and most of these things are already mentioned there. This history section here is only a BRIEF history of VOJVODINA (not of Croatia or Hungary!), and it show the ORIGINS of Vojvodina as the present political subject. PANONIAN (talk) 15:46, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I had a discussion with Ceha on History of Vojvodina. While I agree that his edits have a nationalist POV, he might have some points and he seems willing to discuss (WP:GF), and I decided not to merely revert. Please join & review. Duja
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Hungarian king was "de jure" king of that area. His appinion is worth noticing, don't you agree?:)
In the worst case scenario it shows contex of stronger neighbours and that afiliation to the future of that country. His views are formulated from his actions, granting of the lands, etc. I'm reminding you again that he was "de jure" ruler of that area.
There is great difference between his title of Croatian king, and his title as Serbian king. Croatia had certain autonomy (in the begining of the arpadovic's rule kings heir was first proclaimed ruler of Croatia, and he governed from there, and later there was alway's bans) while Raska was independent most of the time, and this title for it was just titular. Most of Vojvodina didn't had that special status as did Croatia (at least not for long). I mentioned Croatia in that light. It had special conection with parts of Vojvodina.
It is not important were the battle took place. It's consequences were important for Vojvodina. 
Ceha 22:31, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nationalistic edits

message: Where this the proof that only 56,000 Croats live in Vojvodina. We know that there happen to be a lot more than this, and Bunjevs need not be regarded as a seperate nation given that they originated in Croatia. The hundreds of thousands of ethnic Croats in Vojvodina are two-fold, the indigenous and the migrants who moved from Actual Croatia to Vojvodina at some point. 56,000 is a small number and I think that if there is proof, then the Serbian government has manipulated it again, just as they think that all Slavic speaking people of Hungary are Serb-descended. They are Croats and they know it. Millenko 4/2/06
::Unfortunately Milenko, this is a tough one. When I grew up, I was told that Shokci and Bunjevci were all ethnic Croats. Then I moved to Belgrade (just before the "troubles") and discovered that I was wrong for so many years, because they were all Serb. Whilst Serbs and Croats may claim to be baked in the same oven but kneaded using different dough, it's fair to say that once she declares herself a Bunjev, then such, she is. We all ultimately descended from the same source - people chop, people change! Now I'll be honest with you, I too reckon the number of Croats (discluding alleged subgroups) is higher. If or not Croatian society conditions us to think this, or the Yugoslavian Federal government (as we are talking 2002) manipulated these figures is one that we will never know. Perhaps we should take the clipboard and pen and knock on every door in Vojvodina and ask everyone! Friend or foe? (Croat or Serb?)  :)))))))) Ragusan 4 February 2006
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Here is your evidence (download these two PDF documents with official 2002 census results):
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subotica#References
Only the official census is valid evidence about these numbers, because it is what people declare about their nationality, no matter what you or anybody else think about that what they declared. It is their right of choice to declare what they want and if they declare themselves as Bunjevci or Yugoslavs we have no right to list them as Croats. PANONIAN (talk) 18:53, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh I couldn't agree more. Serbia would never manipulate a census, but Serbia and Montenegro would, and does at that too. All fucking countries manipulate the census, democratic or not. Greece has as many Greek Orthodox followers as it has ethnic Greeks. So how about the Greeks who converted to Islam under the Ottomans? All other nationalities did (given that Bosniaks and Pomaks are Slavic converts), not to mention many Albanians or all their ethnic varieties too: No, any Muslim is a TURK in Greece, even if he speaks Greek as a first language. Get this, I KNOW Greek Sunni Muslims. And how about my stupid country? Croatia? To prove that I am not some nationalist Pro-Croat Anti-Serb - Zagreb sees no Slavic Catholics as Serb, even though in and around Dubrovnik (where I spent most of my young life) there is a traditional group of Serbs who are Catholic... again, I know some of these people by name. Not according to Zagreb though... Italy plays down the number of Slovenes in her,  Finland claims that there are fewer Swedes there than Sweden says... France plays down ALL Alsatians to declare themselves German ... Poland exaggerates the number of people who call themselves Pol+something in Belarus and the Ukraine. Israel is as ethnicly Jewish as it is religiously, even though many who follow the faith and live in Israel admit having converted whilst those who declare their nationality Jewish are Christians or Muslims. That's the way of the world, and bang in the middle of all the injustice is a country called Serbia & Montenegro, so PURE since the overthrow if Miloseveic that they could never tell lies in their censa! Perhaps the world should now look to Belgrade for a moral lead! Ragusan 6 February 2006
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I think it is wrong when somebody declares himself as something else than his grandparents were just because it is more convinient to him (or because villige neighbours look him as of wrong nationality). But people should have the right to call themselves as they please. It reminds me of funny story of european zulustani (no offension intended:) People change. 
Ceha 21:00 4 February 2006 (UTC)
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Ragusan, there is no need for Sarcasm here. I simply know how census is performed in Serbia, thus I do not see how census results could be manipulated here. In census, every citizen get a paper with 3 empty lines where he could to write any ethnicity, any language and any religion (or not to write anything if he want). The one even can to declare himself as Borg or Alien or what ever. Later, the statistical service count how many people declared what nationality, and list that in the census results. PANONIAN (talk) 17:16, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Alright, now it's time to establish the facts.
*1)There is no such existing nation as the Yugoslav. The creation of the state was a farse and all Croats were forced into it. You can be a Serb, a Slovene, but NOT a Yugoslav. It has no historical identity.
*2) Bunjevs ARE Croat, they came from present day Croatia and STILL speak a form of Croatian, not no "Serbo-Croat" nonsense.
*3) People DO write down they are Croats, and the Serb authorities write down that they are Serbs. Still got lots of nationalism, how you say it in English: Old Habits Die Hard.
We're not Slavic and there are more of us than is mentioned anywhre, including Romania. Pro-Serb proof is manipulated by Serb government.
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*1. Yugoslavs ARE RECOGNIZED as nation in Serbia, and people declare themselves in census as such.
*2. Same thing with Bunjevci. They ARE NOT Croats but Bunjevci, no matter what Croatian nationalists think about that. 
*3. This is TOTALLY RIDICULOUS AND WRONG, and it is not worthy of commenting at all. PANONIAN (talk) 16:04, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Evidence??

message: For user Outesticide: Before you made another deletion of the history section content, first read some issues discussed on this talk page. Seems that you are another "Greater" nationalist who came here to delete history of Serbs and to write about "historical rights" of Hungary and Croatia to annex Vojvodina. The obvious reason why you deleted part about Jovan Nenad is because you do not like his ethnic origin. If you do not have some better reason to delete this, please do not remove that section again. By the way, read this article about history of Subotica, written by Hungarian historian (Peter Ricz), where Jovan Nenad is mentioned:
* http://www.subotica.co.yu/en/history/historyMAIN.htm
Second thing is that Slavic tribes settled ENTIRE Vojvodina, not only southern Srem (and entire present-day Hungary was settled by Slavic tribes before Hungarians came, by the way). The question about Serbian despots in Srem is same as with Jovan Nenad: you do not like their ethnicity. Finally, the name of the Serbian Vojvodina say that it was Serbian region. Its name was not "Hungarian Vojvodina", and Hungarians were not majority in it but Serbs, thus please stop this vandalism. Try this with the articles about Transylvania or Slovakia for a change (I bet they are your next stations in your "rightful" crusade). PANONIAN (talk) 00:54, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nationalistic edits (again)

message: *That article named "Religious aspects of the Vojvodina Conflict" from www.religioustolerance.org is a propagandist science fiction story and have nothing to do with reality in Vojvodina. Therefor, there is absolutely no reason to post it here. 
*The question whether to have introduction part "Vojvodina is the northern autonomous province of Serbia" or "Vojvodina is the autonomous province in northern Serbia" is problematic. I want that we have here a sentence that will not be changed when status of Kosovo is solved. Kosovo either will be independent either autonomous state within Serbia, but certainly not autonomous province. Therefor, the sentence "Vojvodina is the northern autonomous province of Serbia" is only temporar solution until the status of Kosovo is solved. What is wrong to have permanent solution for this sentence now?
*Regarding two external links (www.backabanat.com and www.youtube.com), I might agree that better places for them are Geography of Vojvodina and Music of Vojvodina articles, but I have nothing against to have them here. If somebody want to remove them, he should consider to move them to these two subarticles instead. PANONIAN (talk) 15:07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Last edits

message: *"That article named "Religious aspects of the Vojvodina Conflict" from www.religioustolerance.org is a propagandist science fiction story and have nothing to do with reality in Vojvodina. Therefor, there is absolutely no reason to post it here."
In essence what your saying is "It’s a lie and I’m reverting it", not much of a reply at all. 
That site is very unbiased and reliable. It actually uses reports from the EU and Human Rights Watch to back up its information.
*"What is wrong to have permanent solution for this sentence now?"
The point is Wikipedia can be edited and changed as situations develop, at the moment the sentence "Vojvodina is the northern autonomous province of Serbia" gives the most accurate and detailed information, and if Kosovo becomes independent the article will be changed accordingly to reflect the change.
PANONIAN, Wikipedia is not the place for your nationalistic edits, please refrain from tainting Wikipedia which was created to give accurate and updated information and not your propagandist garbage.
--Taz Manchester 19:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Troll. Duja 19:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He is troll indeed, but there is no harm to explain why the http:// www.religioustolerance.org/ war_vojv.htm address is unappropriate for Wikipedia. Even the title of that article is highly biased, because there simply was no conflict in Vojvodina to talk about its religious aspect. So, the link is biased, it might claim that it "uses reports from the EU and Human Rights Watch to back up its information", but it in fact does not use such reports, and instead of it, it is an completelly invented fictional story of its author (B.A. Robinson). Furthermore, the article was published during the NATO bombardment of Yugoslavia in April 1999, and its purpose was not to describe any conflict, but to start new one and to justify that bombardment. If mister troll want, we can analyse every single sentence from that link to see why it is incorrect and biased.  PANONIAN  (talk) 20:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Stop trolling, you troll. --serbiana - talk 04:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Regarding The Last Edits

message: LOL, Is that intelligent debate by your standards Bormalagurski?
--Taz Manchester 11:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, there is no reason that anybody discuss with you further. There is clear Wikipedia policy named "Do not feed the troll". So, here is nice definition of Internet troll: "In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who comes into an established community such as an online discussion forum, and posts inflammatory, rude, repetitive or offensive messages designed intentionally to annoy and antagonize the existing members or disrupt the flow of discussion." The discussion page is for seriuos discussion not for trolling purposes. PANONIAN (talk) 11:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Stop trolling, you troll

message: 3 areas with official name in several language (within intro section). History section mishmashed, most data needs to be moved to History of Vojvodina. bare link refs. Sections are situated on wrong places. 7 (!) maps after eachother. Overall MOS.--Zoupan (talk) 23:09, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiple problems