Talk:Five Points, Manhattan

message: At Five Points' height only certain areas of London's East End vied with it in sheer population density, disease, infant and child mortality, unemployment, violent crime and other classic ills of the destitute. Of course one may not mention any of the places east of Suez that outclassed both London and New York in these categories. I suppose we don't hold those cultures to Western standards. Wetman 06:35, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not what's going on here. It's surprising but true-- no urban area, west or east of Suez, came close to Five Points and the East End for these conditions in the mid 1800s. The key statistic is population density. The worst slums of Cairo, Calcutta and Beijing were far greater in land area than the Points, but density in the Points was much higher, thanks mostly to the invention of the Tenement. It was four and five stories of misery compared to one or two. Yes, it's a bit deceiving if you're comparing entire cities with each other. But if you are talking about individual slums (as the article is), it's just a matter of fact that the Points and the East End (particularly Whitechapel/Bethnal Green) embodied a concentrated poverty not previously seen, anywhere. JDG 04:55, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quote 

message: The editor of this page says that most of the Five Points was subject to slum clearance in the 1880s. I cannot disagree more with this. The Five Points was renovated in the late 1940s in accordance with the New Deal Act. In the late 1800s, the Five Points was still the worst slum. Irish crime was replaced by Jewish crime in the early 1900s. The Five Points didn't get cleaned up until 1947.
Sandy June 00:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I applaud you 128.235.249.80. This is exactly right. In fact, in 1947 there was no area actually called "Five Points". It was considered long gone. In the 1890s there was still the adjacent (in some places overlapping with the old Points) slum called "Mulberry Bend". That too was cleared out long before the 1940s, so Sandy June above must be referring to certain clearance initiatives aimed at *parts* of the Lower East Side. JDG 19:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: slum clearance

message: Is it the best to use the term Park Street in this article?  The street is neither signed Park St. today, nor was signed it when Anthony St. was cut through to the intersection to create the actual Five Points intersection back in 1817.  In that year, Anthony St. was extended to the intersection of Orange and what was known as Cross Street to create an intersection with five corners; in the 1830s, Anthony Street was extended further, past the intersection, to Chatham Square, leaving the intersection to become, actually, a six-cornered intersection by the era that the movie "Gangs of New York" is set.  Only later was Anthony renamed Worth, Orange into Baxter, and Cross into Park Street.  By the time of the 1930s/40s, with the WPA projects that created Government Center, were Baxter and Park streets closed south of Worth Street; in addition, with the sometime refurbishment of Columbus Park (the result of the 1880s slum clearance project), Park Street was closed between Baxter and Mulberry, resulting in the current intersection of Baxter and Worth.  This T-shaped intersection of Baxter and Worth is what remains of the Five Points intersection today.  In that time, too, the name of Park Street had changed; now the street is signed Mosco Street, and runs only the one block between Mott and Mulberry Street (alongside the RC Church of the Transfiguration in modern-day Chinatown).  Therefore, since "Park Street" was neither the name of the street when the "Five Points" originated (then being known as Cross Street), nor the name of the street now (being currently signed Mosco Street), is it really proper to call it Park Street in this article? 128.235.249.80 04:58, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I invite you to change the names according to your sources. I wrote the paragraphs you're referring to but I'm afraid I no longer have access to the source material I used at the time. The street names are quite tricky. What was true in 1840 would not be true in 1848, etc.,., etc,. If you want to be super accurate with street names you'll need to track changes and demolitions through time... It would also be good to mention the important role of "Paradise Square" (which formed one of the corners). It too was demolished some years before the general razing of the Points, so there was a period of Four Points, so to speak (this was also after the extension of Anthony St. was demolished, so, strictly speaking, the intersection went from 5 Points to 6 Points to 5 Points to 4 Points). JDG 20:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Park Street?

message: Maybe someone who knows more about the subject matter can decide if this warrants a place in the article or not. Basically, Tom Waits refers to the Five Points amongst other things in his song Never Let Go, from the album Orphans: Brawlers, Bawlers & Bastards. It is the reason I got to this article, so maybe it deserves a place. Regards, Alan16 (talk) 19:25, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some info 

message: Perhaps there should be something like "also collectively known as Delaware Indians" included in the section where the Munsee/Lanape are mentioned.  Most people reading this are probably more familiar with that designation. ~Eric F. 184.76.225.106 (talk) 22:17, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original inhabitants 

message: I think the article should use a different picture for the Lenape, early inhabitants of Five Points. The current picture is of a "Lenape Dancer," which looks to be someone, presumably a Lenape wearing a mask and a costume. As a picture that is supposed to give someone with no idea who or what a Lenape is, this one is very confusing. 
There are four pictures of Lenape in the article on the Lenape. Any one of those pictures would give the reader a better idea than the current picture. Ileanadu (talk) 01:36, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello  I exchanged the picture. Best regards.--Maxim Pouska (talk) 01:23, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture for Lenape 

message: Hello, the phrases by Charles Dickens about the Language of the people at the Five Points I read as a discrimination against this men and women. His words are: "Many of these pigs live here. Do they ever wonder why their masters walk upright in lieu of going on all-fours? and why they talk instead of grunting?”
OK I understand that the Dickens as an english man did not speak or well understood Irish language, Gaelic or Irish Gaelic, also not some other language by immigrants. I would like to delete this phrase soon. Beside it is not relevant for the Five Points. Best regards.--Maxim Pouska (talk) 15:36, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, Charles Dickens did know the French language as educated English man at this time. See his book A Tale of Two Cities. But Dickens did not understand the Irish language well. Just normal. I delete the phrases now in some days after I waited 3 months.--Maxim Pouska (talk) 16:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

text: The lines should be restored. Dickens' impression is included in this article for historical perspective on "polite" attitudes toward the Five Points. No-one claimed his reportage was objective or factually accurate. His "American Notes" are a famously a screed against the United States, and that is their main value to historians today. This passage was added here to give readers a colourful, well-written, unequivocal critique of this unsavoury old New York neighbourhood, and it has been significantly emasculated by the presumptive "editing" of a classic work of literature. Laodah 04:11, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:   Wikipedia should not tolerate discriminatory content  by Charles Dickens 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: Original citation is working now. Thank you. Vzeebjtf (talk) 18:39, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Park Street→Mosco Street 

message: And isn't Chinatown (along with most of the other supposed "neighborhoods" of Manhattan Island recognized today) more a collection of neighborhoods? 2603:6011:A600:46:28C3:8837:BF53:3308 (talk) 14:47, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why a "former" neighborhood?