Talk:Fleur-de-lis

message: Is it just me or does this page have too many images? It could be that the images are too large and take up too much space, but even so. I understand that this is an article about a graphic, but I still feel that on the encyclopedia, meaningful prose is more important than abundant visual demonstration — after all, the latter is what Commons is for. Maybe some of the extraneous graphics could be cut out, and those remaining could be reduced in size where appropriate? Specifically, I think that there are too many coats of arms (outside the gallery) and too many pieces of artwork/etc. that simply happen to show the image. One or two for illustrative purposes seems like it would be sufficient.  ~ Boomur [☎] 02:42, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: for reference, here (imgur) is a screenshot of part of the page from my computer. my screen resolution is the popular 1366 x 768; my browser window is at full size, but i've cropped out the toolbar, tabs, etc. i think it's a good example of "there are too many images here, where am i supposed to look?" ~ Boomur [☎] 02:47, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image overload? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Fleur-de-lis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090328035055/http://www.anaharsis.ru:80/histori/Skif/R19.htm to http://www.anaharsis.ru/histori/Skif/R19.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150714035349/http://arklatexhomepage.com/content/fulltext/?cid=22251 to http://arklatexhomepage.com/content/fulltext/?cid=22251
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140508025748/http://www.theadvertiser.com/article/20091126/NEWS01/911260307/1002/Frenzy-on-for-fleur-de-lis to http://www.theadvertiser.com/article/20091126/NEWS01/911260307/1002/Frenzy-on-for-fleur-de-lis
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 08:26, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Fleur-de-lis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110711004802/http://www.fitzsoc.com/Gatherings/Fitzpatrick%202007/FitzpatrickArmsCrestsMottosSupporters.pdf to http://www.fitzsoc.com/Gatherings/Fitzpatrick%202007/FitzpatrickArmsCrestsMottosSupporters.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140929214916/http://www.bharat-rakshak.com:80/LAND-FORCES/OrBat/Combat/250-Armoured.html to http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/OrBat/Combat/250-Armoured.html
*Added  tag to http://www.scoutingmilestones.co.uk/badges
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 16:46, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Fleur-de-lis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/OrBat/Combat/250-Armoured.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110717104241/http://troop25longbeach.com/Fleur-de-Lis.aspx to http://troop25longbeach.com/Fleur-de-Lis.aspx
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:38, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Fleur-de-lis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090625193300/http://www.nola.com/living/t-p/index.ssf?%2Fbase%2Fliving-6%2F1153039975164970.xml&coll=1 to http://www.nola.com/living/t-p/index.ssf?%2Fbase%2Fliving-6%2F1153039975164970.xml&coll=1
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 07:39, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article alternates, for no good reason that I can see, between the spellings "France Modern" (which seems unlikely, since ordinary French words - as opposed to a few proper names - don't end in -rn) and "France Moderne" (which is correct French). I don't know for certain which is right - "France Modern" may be acceptable in heraldic English, alongside "France Ancient" - but the spelling should surely be consistent throughout the article. The same inconsistency occurs in the article on "National emblem of France".213.127.210.95 (talk) 14:18, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  France Modern/Moderne 

message: Much of this article currently appears to consist of long list of "...the fleur de lis appears in the... [insert symbol/ flag/ crest/ uniform] of [whatever/ whomever]."  Wikipedia is not meant to be a catalogue of every instance of the occurrence of a thing, but a selective account of the most prominent examples of it.  One thing this article does NOT need any more mentions of additional occurrences of this symbol anywhere in the world, and what it could really use is a paring down of the various lists of occurrences throughout so that it has only the most interesting and relevant ones.  This is practically fancruft.  Bindle-stiff (talk) 05:46, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Long lists of indiscriminate information

message: It seems to me this is a mix of 2 symbols at least.
There is a symbol of iris that is used in Florence for instance. - Iris Fiorentina.
And there is a symbol of lily, that is used in i.e. Bosnia. - Lilium_bosniacum
These are not the same flowers. They don't look the same in nature at all.
see below
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilium_bosniacum
https://www.intoflorence.com/history-giglio-florence/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.110.84.146 (talk) 19:36, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: ... uess they are the same. It seems to me that the Marian symbol was first adopted by the French Capetians, and from their widespread dynasty it migrated all over medieval Europe, and later beyond. (To Florence probably via the French allies, the Ghibelins.) Local patriots tried to give their lily a local touch, see Quebec recently, but this apparently was a later evolution. Anyway, that's what I came to think, yours is an excellent observation, and I'm looking forward to other arguments. Arminden (talk) 13:39, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iris and Lily 

message: I'm not a regular Wiki editor, but the intro on this looks very odd compared to much simpler 2018 version. Something that talked about the symbol first, and went into the history of the symbol in an early paragraph would be more readable. Grill (talk) 13:28, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Odd introduction 

message: Under an illustration showing two stylised(?) blooms, it reads:
“ Iris compared with fleur-de-lis ornament in French”
What is the point of the aforeshown and what does the “in French” bit mean?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:9C97:5D01:ED5C:6880:E1A2:7637 (talk) 12:39, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  What does “ Iris compared with fleur-de-lis ornament in French” mean? 

message: ::
The second quarter of the arms (and the arms are incorporated in full in the flag) is the arms of the house of Orléans, Azure three fleurs-de-lis Or, a label of three points Argent.  This seems to me rather marginal; are there no better examples of a fleur-de-lis in Brazil? —Tamfang (talk) 19:53, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joinville 

message: :"In the 1685 Code Noir, based on  Jean-Baptiste Colbert's legislation, slaves in Mauritius were branded with a fleur-de-lis when being punished for stealing food or escaping.Bernardin de Saint-Pierre
:The fleur-de-lis (or flower de Luce) could be branded on slaves as punishment for certain offenses in French Louisiana. For instance, the Louisiana Code Noir (1724) stated: XXXII. The runaway slave...shall be branded with the flower de luce ...".
:The Code Noir was an arrangement of controls received in Louisiana in 1724 from other French settlements around the globe, intended to represent the state's slave populace. Those guidelines included marking slaves with the fleur-de-lis as discipline for fleeing."
#Colbert died in 1682. Is 1685 a typo? Was there an updated Code? Or was the Code introduced at different times in different colonies, for whatever reason?
#Both in Mauritius & for Louisiana: was there a specifically adapted, local Code noir, or was there just one for all of France's territories? Was the Code ever updated and/or adapted for specific colonies?
Arminden (talk) 15:11, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  French slave branding: Code noir 

message: The history & chronology must be worked out, made clear in separate intro section. As far as I can tell, it spread throughout Europe & its colonies in 4 steps:
:religious symbol (purity) -> French heraldic royal symbol (Capet) -> England & Scotland (claims to French crown) -> the rest of Europe & the colonies.
Right? Arminden (talk) 15:24, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin in Europe: France! Needs more weight. 

message: The sections re medieval France offer several more interpretations, all more plausible, with a plausible evolution, rooted in precise periods, and well referenced. Not clear to which period Duby is referring. He might not be relevant anymore to start with.
No URL, other details missing, cannot check what he actually wrote. Not OK at current standards. Arminden (talk) 16:04, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duby's interpretation 

message: :"...often considered to be a representation of the autochthonous golden lily, Lilium bosniacum."
I have started a discussion also here: Talk:Lilium bosniacum#Refs don't support symbolic use. Possibly a modern patriotard overinterpretation. So far it's also unsourced.
Interesting in itself, as a probable example of "folk heraldry", similar to folk etymology. But then it should be discussed as such. Arminden (talk) 12:30, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bosnia: unsourced claim for local subspecies 

message: There are 8 such tags in the main section, elsewhere maybe more. What purpose do they serve? None of them works. If outdated, or pasted in from somewhere else: remove!
They are all set between double braces, showing as blue-coloured single letters between square brackets.
Look for
*Ref label|a|a|a -> shows as [a]
*Ref label|b|b|b -> shows as [b]
*Ref label|c|c|c -> shows as [c]
*Ref label|d|d|d -> shows as [d]
*Ref label|e|e|e -> shows as [e]
*Ref label|f|f|f -> shows as [f]
*Ref label|g|g|g -> shows as [g]
*Ref label|h|h|h -> shows as [h]
Arminden (talk) 12:45, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Ref label" (8 of them, from a to h) - what for? 

message: The lily appears on ancient coins from Yehud Medinata, fact, and it looks quite similar to the fleur-de-lis.
However, the theory that it was also used on medieval banners from Syria in the time of Saladin - that I couldn't find proof for, although it might well be true.
The claim that the first time it appears in a Western context is on a stone carving decorating the refectory of the Hospitaller commandery of Saint-Jean-d'Acre (Akko), making iy possibly the place where it was picked up and adopted by the French royal House of Valois-Anjou - that seems unproven. Timewise it's plausible. I don't know if the Acre f.d.l., or indeed the refectory, has been precisely dated. Was the hall built during the first Kingdom of Jerusalem, so before 1187, or during the second, Acre-based, in 1191–1291? See Hospitaller commandery of Saint-Jean-d'Acre#History: 1140s the earliest, with additions into C13. Can the carved f.d.l., placed at the base of a rib of the rib vault be dated? The generally excellent German Wiki article on Acre states that the two-nave ground-floor refectorium was built "starting in 1104", which might be just a supposition based on the general age of the oldest parts of the Hospitaller citadel and the fact that a dining hall was always needed, and adds that it probably served as an oldest model of all Gothic-style cross vaults. So we have either 1104, or post-1140: not quite the same - a typo? If the f.d.l. there is indeed from the very beginning of the 12th c., then it does predate its use by Louis VI and VII. Even the 1140s are early enough.
Heraldists and archaeologists, au secours!
PS: I have placed this question also at Talk:Lilium candidum and Talk:Hospitaller commandery of Saint-Jean-d'Acre, but hete should be the main discussion space. Arminden (talk) 15:41, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holy Land origin theory