Talk:Sergei Shoigu

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I have just modified 2 external links on Sergey Shoygu. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120424172049/http://www.interfiresport.com/about.en_16.html to http://www.interfiresport.com/about.en_16.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150402231911/http://www.bestpeopleofrussia.ru/persona/1167/bio to http://www.bestpeopleofrussia.ru/persona/1167/bio
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: According to the page on biographies of living people, contentious material, that is poorly sourced should be removed immediately without discussion. As the material has now been re-added by two editors, I'm making a note of the fact that their edits are a violation of that policy.--ConfusedAndAfraid (talk) 09:15, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: *Please check WP:Verifiability. They are RS perfectly valid for any BLP. Even if you think they are biased, they are valid RS, see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Biased_or_opinionated_sources. If you have concerns, please ask at WP:RSNB. The source is not YouTube record, but an interview on RFE/RL with historians like Nikita Petrov. The content is also non-contentious. His support of Putin is well known. My very best wishes (talk) 17:14, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It is absolutely not a reliable source and saying it is so without addressing any of the arguments I've presented doesn't make it so. As I've pointed out repeatedly, state media for an adversary is not a reliable source of material for information about a Russian Defence Minister.--ConfusedAndAfraid (talk) 23:13, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: *Of course the text about his good relations with Putin (which is a totally noncontroversial content) can be easily rephrased or expanded. Also, more references can be used, for example , ,. There are also Russian language references, for example , but English language sources are preferred. My very best wishes (talk) 01:44, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: As about this source , no, this is a totally reliable, even scholarly RS (because it includes comments by well known historians). Well, it even cites what Alexander Prokhanov said about Shoigu. Prokhanov is certainly not a supporter of NATO, just the opposite. How about citing him? My very best wishes (talk) 02:03, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: US State media is not even close to a reasonable source for a BLP of an adversary of the US State, and the content of the reference that you say is helpful isn't even used in the deleted parts of the article. The article merely directed users away from Wikipedia, to US State media. As for your new sources; you have 1. Another state media source, 2. US State media again. 3. A news aggregator. None of which verify the deleted content. If this material is important, it should be trivial to find independent sources, that are not directly linked to state adversaries. And I'd strongly suggest (and repeat) that the claimed statement by Shoygu that I removed, if actually a statement by him, should be easy to find elsewhere.--ConfusedAndAfraid (talk) 02:27, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Al Jazeera is not a US source. And are you going to dismiss all US sources just because they are "US sources"? There are more. For example, this article in NYT . According to it, "Mr. Shoigu last month called Ukrainian nationalists “nonhumans.”" That one  by The Guardian say: "Sergei Shoigu, this week accused American mercenaries of transporting chemical weapons to the frontlines of the conflict zone, although he did not provide any evidence for the claim." My very best wishes (talk) 02:43, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

text: Of course I'm not going to dismiss all US sources, including the ones that you've linked. I'm on record in other edits trying to defend NYT as RS for instance. I've tried to be reasonable here, but that really is a stretch, and quite frankly I feel attacked by that assertion. I've made clear that my objection is towards **State media** for adversaries of this man. That is an obvious violation of BLP and you are doing a lot of groundwork to avoid addressing that very specific point, while I've been in my view very resaonable; stating repeatedly that if other sources agree with US State media, then this is verifiable information. Please retract your attacks on my judgement, and try to be civil.--ConfusedAndAfraid (talk) 10:16, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

text: Quick source check on the NYT article linked above. It cites This article which makes no mention of the word "nonhuman" or "Ukrainian" as a source for the claim that he used those words. Happy to be corrected with a specific quote, but this looks like an error by NYT. As BLP requires verifiability and sourcing of claims, this currently doesn't pass the sniff test because NYT appear to have made an error.--ConfusedAndAfraid (talk) 10:21, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

text: Edit again. Turns out I had Google Translate on, so it didn't allow search of the entire page, without scrolling down to allow the tool to apply it's translation. There is a Google Translate claim that he said non-humans, in reference specifically to people he was describing as neo-fascists and mercenaries. Not Ukrainians. So that's strike one for the NYT. Strike two is using Google translate, instead of a verified translation. But that's really irrelevant considering he wasn't as they claim talking about all Ukrainians. See My very best wishes, the good work you can do when you actually check sources?--ConfusedAndAfraid (talk) 10:25, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

text: Edit again again. No serious enough objections to your current edits to revet them. Al Jazeera is state media, and it's my personal opinion that while the US state has taken a notably hostile line towards them, including deliberately bombing them, they usually are not 'friendly' to Russia. But they certainly have appeared more independent than RFE in their reporting. Not sure what others would think.--ConfusedAndAfraid (talk) 10:28, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Speaking of NYT article, this is not an error, but interpretation of a primary source in Russian (your link) by a secondary RS (the article in NYT). This is precisely why we are using such secondary sources - to avoid our own interpretation of primary sources (as you do). Hence, the NYT article is a good source to use here, just as views by historians and others that appear in the RFE/RL interview. I do not have problems with citing even views by Prokhanov because they are reliably sourced.My very best wishes (talk) 15:41, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: And you are wrong about the primary source in Russian (the interview with Shoygu). He said "Мы до сих пор видим последствия попыток этих нелюдей вместе с украинскими войсками навести свои порядки в Донецкой и Луганской областях.". "нелюдей" means  nonhumans. Yes, he is not talking about all Ukrainians, but only about those who made Revolution of Dignity. He calls them "extremists", "ultranationalists" and yes, "nonhumans". My very best wishes (talk) 15:54, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I was not wrong, at least after I figured out my error. NYT misquoted him. As did you. As you admit.--ConfusedAndAfraid (talk) 13:10, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the author of NYT article did not qoute (or misquote) Shoygu; he summarized/interpreted the opinion/views by Shoygu on the subject, and that is exactly what secondary RS suppose to do. According to this article, Shoygu said that Ukrainian nationalists (not all Ukrainians of course) are nonhumans. Looking carefully at the Russian text of the interview (that is what I did), it appears he calls "ultranationalsts" (etc.) all people who rebelled against Yanykovich. Hence, he labels people "nonhumans" for their political views and willingness to sacrify their lives for their country rather than for their ethnicity. My very best wishes (talk) 02:48, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand why you're so insistent on a defence of NYT here. It is a clear error. End of story.--ConfusedAndAfraid (talk) 02:46, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding the use of US State media as a source for Shoygu 

message: 38.81.150.80 (talk) 02:08, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I have fixed it, thanks. Endwise (talk) 02:19, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 7 March 2022 

message: On the first line of this entry it says that Shoygu is a war criminal, but there is no substantiation of any conviction. Only that Ukraine alleged war crimes - no evidence that he did. Megaricht (talk) 15:53, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:57, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 15 March 2022 

message: Shoigu was awarded highest honor by Order of Malta in 2012, please add (I’m not a registered Wikipedia user).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.222.183.137 (talk) 13:51, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It is present and properly sourced in the Russian version of this Wikipedia article: "Большой крест ордена Заслуг pro Merito Melitensi (Мальтийский орден, 5 июля 2012 года) — за милосердие, спасение и помощь[102]"--213.222.183.137 (talk) 13:55, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like nobody wants to add this to the article. Why?--210.57.254.222 (talk) 10:27, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awards 

message: Just a heads up, reference 35 is deprecated Smokerton (talk) 22:21, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove reference 35 - tweet no longer exists 

message: Tuvan_language#Phonology doesn't mention this allophone. (Then again, its consonants section is probably still work in progress). 89.64.69.18 (talk) 00:21, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  ɣ in IPA transcription 

message: I wish to change the following sentence in the "Early Life and Education" section from "Alexandra Shoigu grew up in the Donbas town of Stakhanov, Ukraine and had traumatizing experiences being arrested by the Eastern Front occupation forces during the World War II" to "Alexandra Shoigu grew up in the Donbas town of Stakhanov, Ukraine and had traumatizing experiences while being arrested by the Eastern Front occupation forces during World War II." The word "while" was added to improve the flow of the sentence and "the" was removed because "World War II," as opposed to the alternative "Second World War," is not generally preceded by an article. Both edits were grammatically motivated. Laaff (talk) 01:17, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: "Under detention of" might be better than "while being arrested", for "arrest" is a transient verb, which cannot be used to describe a status. Once somebody is "arrested", this action ended and the person went "under detention". Despite this, I would answer your request, for the request is reasonable on the whole. UNITE TOGETHER, STRIVE FOR SURVIVAL! 08:14, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 21 October 2022 

message: -- Bancki (talk) 08:06, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: (And his competent opinion. About torture and inhuman treatment. Detained officers of the Supreme General Staff (low-ranking officers).91.183.159.198 (talk) 11:32, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shoigu palace 

message: Remove this flag per MOS:INFOBOXFLAG, should not be used with flags in infoboxes of military personnel. 175.158.60.94 (talk) 02:50, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Sam Sailor 13:05, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 July 2023 

message: Remove the line "()" from the infobox Libirachi (talk) 16:49, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Question: Why? Deltaspace42 (talk • contribs) 20:19, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It both states the obvious (6 November 2012 is clearly 11 years ago) and doesn't match the infobox formatting used on virtually every other page on Wikipedia - in short, largely for aesthetic and consistency purposes Libirachi (talk) 23:37, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 December 2023 

message: Please change the signature to the file :File:Sergey Shoygu, signature.svg. Thanks! – Pacha Tchernof (talk) 14:10, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Signature in SVG format 

message: To any editors who feel like adding it, here is a few sources on this subject: 
https://www.wsj.com/world/russias-putin-replaces-defense-minister-in-security-shake-up-6cbaefbb
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-69000698
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/12/world/europe/russia-putin-cabinet-war-shoigu.html
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-kharkiv-e1f9250d200999ea3e87e9b96b4710d6
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/12/europe/sergei-shoigu-putin-replaces-defense-minister-intl-latam/index.html
Currently this is in the lead, which is incorrect. This should probably go towards the end of the Minister of Defence. Since precedent has organized the article by his responsibilities, we should also add a new section for his new post as secretary of the Security Council of Russia. The Madness of Joanna (talk) 21:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on May 12 2024: Replacement as Defense Minister 

message: link "...a mutiny" before "by the Wagner Group..." to wagner group rebellion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group_rebellion) Piyo99 (talk) 03:48, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Jamedeus (talk) 04:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 May 2024