Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Martial arts/archive 5

message: Since disscusion seems to have dried up I've been bold and changed the template. --Nate1481(talk/contribs) 09:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Changed

message: I argue that Template:Martial arts add more problems than value. Discussion held at Template talk:Martial arts. // habj 16:05, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've replied there, lets archive the discussion here. -- Medains 18:05, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not worth it 

message: This article is AfD wondered if people could have a look to see if it can be improved or not. --Nate1481(talk/contribs) 11:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps it could be reduced to a basic author's page (Biography and Bibliography sections) since several sections are essentially summaries of the contents of his web page.  Some note should be made of the antipathy that he has generated or has for others, as well as documented legal cases - but generally this page should be quite short due to the lack of reliable verifiable sources. -- Medains 13:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The court case & Aliases need a mention, if your talking about a person it helps to know who they are... --Nate1481(talk/contribs) 14:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Ashida Kim]] 

message: I have made a proposal for a Sumo Wikiproject here at WikiProject Sumo Proposal. Yesterday I spent part of the day sourcing Akebono with a few other people after its repeated blanking due to lack of sources.  Most sumo articles are not well sourced.  Though under two WikiProjects already, I think it would be to the advantage of both the articles of sumo and wikipedia as a whole if Sumo is placed under its own WikiProject.  If you would like to join or have any comments, please go to the Project proposal page.  Thanks! XinJeisan 17:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wish you luck whith that - Sumo used to be GA class before they made the GA requirements more stringent.  It would be great if the sumo-related articles could regain their former status.  If the project is created, make sure to let us know here - I'll add the project to the listing of descendant or related projects in the MA project navbox. Bradford44 18:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your support! I will keep you informed of what is happeningXinJeisan 18:16, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sumo Wikiproject 

message: I've seen a handful of newish pages that need tagging for WP:MA, and we also have a buildup of unassessed articles.  So please make it your business to tag articles if they should be tagged using  in the talk page, and checking :Category:Unassessed_martial_arts_articles every so often for new articles to assess.
Here's the current status...
Martial Artsarticles	Martial Artsarticles	Importance	Importance	Importance	Importance	Importance	Importance
Martial Artsarticles	Martial Artsarticles	          	Total     	          	          	          	
Quality             	                    	          	          	          	          	          	
Quality             	                    	2         	2         	          	          	          	
Quality             	                    	1         	1         	          	          	          	
Quality             	                    	3         	3         	          	          	          	
Quality             	                    	74        	74        	          	          	          	
Quality             	                    	474       	474       	          	          	          	
Quality             	                    	504       	504       	          	          	          	
Quality             	                    	1058      	1058      	          	          	          	
Quality             	                    	143       	143       	          	          	          	
Quality             	Total               	1201      	1201      	          	          	          	
Looks like we need to get more articles out of stub and start class too.  -- Medains 12:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Assessment and Tagging 

message: Regarding the new topic on Talk:List_of_Chinese_martial_arts (including founders/heads of systems on lists), would it be worthwhile to review the current organization of lists to include additional information (origin, founded-date, founded by, current head (when not debated), etc) on the lists?  The project is currently unclear on the exact recommended format. JScribner 19:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I figure that lists of things are necessary since the categories are not always appropriate, but the only thing necessary in the list is what is needed to get to the article (or to navigate similar articles).  Maintaining the same details in multiple lists would be a potential pain.  So I think the links to arts in links should be "Name as used by article - Common English Name" and no more (any more and you're including information that the reader can find by going to the article).  Lists could be arranged a bit better (so not just alphabetically, but also by categorizations or other sorting mechanisms) so that they offer more than just a category would. --- Medains 21:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Martial Arts Listing format 

message: I've been working a lot lately on improving the general quality of articles about koryu, and for the purpose of better uniting them by creating more traffic across koryu articles, would like to create a navbox template at the namespace template:navbox koryu. It would look like this:
It matches the colors of the  currently in use in virtually all of the koryu articles.  It would follow the same rules developed for  discussed above, namely that it not be a place to exhaustively list koryu, but rather for the purpose of navigation to koryu articles that are start-class or better. Finally, it should be used only at the bottom of pages that are about koryu. Any thoughts for improvement? I'll wait a few days and hear ideas before I create the template namespace, it exists right now only at User:Bradford44/Sandbox. Bradford44 15:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is okay - navigation around a closely grouped set of articles.  You might get a little disagreement if someone adds an art and someone else disputes it's status as koryu, so a guideline on the template is a must (though ensuring there is no 20th century line should help there).  On the century lines that get a bit long, you could break things up into kenjutsu, iaijutsu, naginatajutsu etc... -- Medains 21:30, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see much potential for disputes where the standard definition for koryu (though not written in stone) is pretty precise as: "any martial arts school founded in Japan prior to the issuance of the Haitorei edict in 1876", and this definition is supported by published works by Diane Skoss (considered highly authoritative) and others.  Between that rule and the one requiring articles to be start-class or better (because completely unsourced or unbelievable claims about the age of a school are most likely to be found in stubs), I don't see that there is much room for controversy. I plan to state the rules clearly on the template page. I agree that there may be some room for further divisions in the future, but honestly, almost all of the koryu for which a substantial amount of publicly available historical information exists are already on the list, so I don't see it growing much more beyond a few more articles here and there in the near future. Bradford44 23:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Created  Bradford44 15:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Template for koryu

message: I would like to add the navbox  to the bottom of all of the "<country> martial arts" articles (e.g. Japanese martial arts, Korean martial arts, etc...) as well as the article "Martial arts".  It looks like this:
Any objections? Bradford44 05:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: makes sense to use there, would adding the art by region artivles (e.g. Chinese martial arts etc be a good plan? --Nate1481(talk/contribs) 07:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that might be overdoing it - after all, every article about a Japanese martial art already has "x is a Japanese martial art..." at the top.  Likewise for Korean, Chinese, etc... And I would support including Korean martial arts and the rest in the "see also" section of "Japanese martial arts" so in my opinion it's not necessary. Bradford44 14:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Martial arts by country of origin

message: I've noticed amongst many of the unassessed articles are a lot of articles about Judo throws.  I contacted the originator of the articles (Pereza) a little while back (but no response so far) to suggest that since there was a great number of them, mostly only stubs (see O Goshi, Osoto Otoshi and Yoko Wakare as examples), that they would be better off in a broader article such as Judo hip throws - and could be broken out into a full article when it becomes apparent that there is enough material to justify it.  Comments, thoughts, and volunteers to set up all the redirects... ;)  -- Medains 18:09, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, there are over a hundred such stub articles, and virtually all of them also have a broken image on them, further reducing their independant value.  Additionally, many are very precariously balanced upon, if not having crossed, the "how to" line, as well as the "notability" line.  When I revised the conventions on the project page recently, these articles are exactly what I was thinking about when I wrote the second half of the rule at WP:WPMA#Articles about techniques.  It will be a lot of work, and help from someone with judo experience would be essential, but I think they need to be combined and reorganized around an English-centric article structure (like "Judo hip throws" as Medains suggested, and not something like "Koshinage's").  Further, the techniques should be discussed using English as much as is practical, or else the article ends up being "too technical for a general audience", as many sections of the judo article may already be. Bradford44 14:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Grouping the throws would be a good plan I've come across dozens of them and the info may be good but having them grouped would make a better article. I'd suggest starting the article ^ move content in as sections then copy editing, some also look distinctly half done.--Nate1481(t/c) 14:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Judo Technique Articles

message: Just came across this need a clean up, currently reads like its an article about a style, rather than the general term. Not brilliant style and lots of lists. The big thing is that one section has a copyright tag on it I'm not sure as permission to use is included but don't know if is should be in there so hid it. --Nate1481(t/c) 09:28, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It reads to me like an advert for Eskrima.  Some of the links are about other martial arts though (Latigo y Daga for example).  Many links lead to non-MA articles (Redonda, Free Flow) which is just wrong.  A little searching leads me to eight separately named Filipino styles (mostly of a relatively modern origin) that could be summarised and linked to without trying to write an article about Eskrima.  (Those eight, for anyone who want to take on the rewrite - Eskrima, Kali Sikaran, Pangamut, Pananjakman, Kombatan, Modern Arnis, Suntukan and the previously mentioned Latigo y Daga). -- Medains 13:46, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

text: A quick extra note about the copyrighted section you commented out - it's two tables that say table 1 - (in FMA empty hand, stick, knife, sword and shield are used in all combinations in both hands) and table 2 - (ditto for impact, edged, flexible, projectile and ballistic weapons) - which is better said in prose, despite the practicalities of some combinations being questionable (someone using a whip and a bow at once, come on....) -- Medains 13:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed removed. You draw with you teeth....--Nate1481(t/c) 14:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Filipino martial arts]] 

message: Where do you request articles to be improved?
I think two articles which could be improved are 2 extremely important biographies is the Russian Martial Art Systema. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Vladimir_Vasiliev_%28martial_arts%29
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Ryabko
a website that would help is www.russianmartialart.com
Thanks!  Tkjazzer 10:00, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the right place, though I'm not sure about how many of the participants in the project are active at the moment.   There might be a problem finding reliable sources for these individuals in English (and is a general problem with MA bios, since any that are published tend to be by niche-publishers). -- Medains 11:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  where do you request articles for improvement? 

message: I feel that I'm flitting hither and thither firefighting little issues and not really making much improvement to MA articles in general - perhaps we should select a few articles to focus on for a certain period, and try to get their quality up.  We should have a page to show the "current foci" and who is working on them, and a short template to place in pages that we're working on.  Does that sound like a good idea?  (WP:Milhist have a Contest, but we don't really have enough participants to make that workable) -- Medains 11:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It might have to be "of the month" at the rate we edit articles ;) -- Medains 21:24, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Project Focus 

message: I started a list on the P:MA of articles we should consider working on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal_talk:Martial_arts#List_of_priorities.  I propose that we start on basic articles of various attack and defense movements... for example "striking."  Things to think about:
*where, anatomical location, on the human body the contact happens
*possible injuries from the movement (both from correct and incorrect form - also injuries from not being conditioned properly and over-exerting)
*the type and amount of damage that can be done - range of damage possible
*possible target locations (or common target locations) on the opponent
(will finish this later - feel free to edit it)
:Given the enormous range of possible results of a "strike", that data will be hard to quantify without becoming original research.  Perhaps it would be better to prioritise B-class articles for common martial arts (Karate, Judo etc..) and maybe articles that were previously better rated (Sumo) - it will be easier to find references and to improve the quality of these articles. -- Medains 11:15, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Priority List 

message: This article has be tagged for deletion with a prod template and is already past it's deletion date. If you think it shouldn't be deleted, please go remove the template. --Versageek 01:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Ernest_H._Cates]] 

message: I've come across repeated claims that individuals are the "Farther or 
Taekwon-Do in [insert country here]" in Rhee Taekwon-Do article, just wanted some input on whether these are reasonable claims or adverts, as I have minimal knowledge or TKD liniages --Nate1481(t/c) 09:48, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not familiar with this gentleman, but his brother Jhoon Rhee is certainly a well known and legendary pioneer of TKD in the U.S.  --Marty Goldberg 14:05, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Without a reference referring to the individuals with these honorary titles I don't think they belong in the article.  There's a certain amount of OR that needs pruning from the article too (disputed claims, no-one is actually in dispute so that whole section is OR) -- Medains 10:33, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Father of Taekwon-Do" 

message: Two points...
#This infobox seems specifically designed for "ancient" schools - any thoughts on using this template for modern schools (I was thinking of articles like Rhee Taekwon-Do here).
#I've placed an update of the template in my sandbox with the existing template for comparison - I've just changed the template such that rows without data are hidden, if you think it's an improvement I'll replace the main template with it. -- Medains 10:33, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been bold and updated the template -- Medains 10:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  {{tl|infobox martial art school}} 

message: I just came across the Shaolin-Do article, and to me this looks like a McDojo with zero third-party notability, and the article is distinctly spammy; filled with "Grandmaster" titles and claims of direct Shaolin temple lineage. I have place a notability tag on the article, and if no sources are given within 24 hours I will be nominating it for deletion. VanTucky 19:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  possible AFD 

message: I just noticed that "List" is a working term for entry after "class=" in the  banner, but it fails to actually place the article into :Category:List-Class martial arts articles.  Can someone with some wiki-skills fix this? Likewise, this option needs to added at our assessment page. Bradford44 16:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just modified  to include List-class articles in :Category:List-Class martial arts articles.  I don't think there are any articles currently in that class, but it should be working.  --Scott Alter 17:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: List-Class articles

message: Could I trouble you to do the same thing for the entry "Template" and :Category:WikiProject Martial Arts templates (which itself belongs in :Category:WikiProject templates)? Thanks :) Bradford44 17:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  Most of the articles currently classified as NA (:Category:Non-article martial arts pages) should either be moved to Template or List.  Any other items you can think of?  How about adding importance?  Is that necessary?  --Scott Alter 18:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've always liked that the MA Project doesn't have an importance scale. The importance scale always seemed arbitrary and unnecessarily confusing. The articles that are the most important will ultimately end up being the ones most highly rated on the quality scale, because they will get worked on.  Besides, we fight about enough stuff related to the relative eminence of various martial arts, let's not add a new way to fight. Bradford44 18:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Template-Class articles

message: Please view the kempo page. Thanks! jmcw 12:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okinawan Te draws from Chinese kempo. The current wikki articles about chinese martial arts and kempo say little about the Chinese kempo contributions to karate ( for example, no mention of Wanshu 1683 or Kusanku 1756 or Ryu Ryuko 1874). I would suggest no link to kempo at this time. jmcw 22:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure it needs to say anything about the influence on karate. All it needs to do is link to the article on Chinese martial arts in case anyone wants a definition of that term or to learn more about Chinese arts. I wouldn't, however, link to "kempo" as that term is generally used in the west (and this is en.wikipedia) to refer to specific American martial arts rather than as a generic term for martial arts which is the way Morio Higaonna would be using it. Shinji nishizono 18:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Maybe a disambiguation page for kempo would be useful. Americain Kempo, Chinese kempo, Southern Chinese kempo, White Crane kempo, Five Ancestors kempo would all be interesting. jmcw 19:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Probably best to have a "kenpo (disam)" page, though I've added some more items to the existing one. -- Medains 08:21, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kempo Disambiguity Page 

message: I would like to create a new field in , but am not sure what to call it.  I would like it to be for successor styles of a martial art - similar to parenthood, but what comes next (as opposed to before).  I want to add this with karate in mind.  I do not think successor is a good word because often a style will be an offshoot, and then the 2 styles coexist.  For example, the direct lineage (descendants) of Shorin-ryu is Kobayashi-ryū, Matsubayashi-ryu, and others.  However, it also had offshoots of Shotokan, Isshin-ryū, and others.  Another example is Yoshukai karate, which has an offshoot of Yoshukai International.  Both of these are active styles.  Should there be 2 new fields: descendants (for styles that have one parent, and the parent is no longer practiced) and offshoots (styles that are usually a fusion of multiple parents, and the parent may still be practiced)?  Is there a better name that can combine these two categories?  --Scott Alter 15:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This field could cause some disagreement in individual pages, unless it's named something ambiguous like "Related arts".  Good idea for an addition though. -- Medains 08:24, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New field for [[Template:Infobox martial art]]