Talk:Ahmad Shukeiri

message: Why is there nothing on the fact that he is widely perceived to be an ineffectual loudmouth who accomplished very little -- not to mention his most famous utterance, just before the 6-day war, about "Throwing the Jews into the sea"? AnonMoos 16:13, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are two good reasons here (a) he didn't say it, though he did say other much more objectionable things (see Shemesh, Moshe (2003). Did Shuqayri Call for "Throwing the Jews into the Sea"? Israel Studies. 8(2), 70-81 and (b) the Arab states were more interested in covering their own failings in the Six-Day War by using him as a fall guy. --Ian Pitchford 19:42, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nothing on Perceptions

message: This article is nothing but propaganda. As the above comment relates, Shukairy was a highly inflammatory racist. The article mentions none of it, such his infamous prediction that none of the Jews would survive the coming battle.68.111.71.197 (talk) 10:31, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: POV: Pro-Arab propaganda

message: The article says he was Syrian rep in the UN for 1949 to 1951 and a Saudi Arabian rep in the UN for 1957 to 1962.  However, he was a Syrian rep in Jan 1952  and also in May 1956 (Official records, 724th Meeting, page 10).  This indicates that the description here is quite inaccurate and we need a better source. This page seems to have it right: he was Syrian rep for 1950-1956 and Saudi rep for 1957-1963.  But is that source one we can use under WP:RS?  Zerotalk 16:54, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The UN security minutes from May 1956 state he is the representative of Syria.https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N57/263/15/PDF/N5726315.pdf?OpenElement Mcdruid (talk) 03:45, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  UN roles in error 

message: Shukerii was born in Lebanon, to a Turkish mother. It seems both  the category of "Turkish descent" and "immigrant to Palestine" are appropriate  could the editor  who keeps removing this explain why? Epson Salts (talk) 13:27, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither Lebanon nor Palestine were separate countries at the time of his birth. He was born an Ottoman citizen and became a Palestinian citizen during the Mandate period. It is much more sensible to class him as Palestinian than as Lebanese. Zerotalk 13:44, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

text: he was not born in Palestine - he moved there, with a different citizenship. why is he not an immigrant? Epson Salts (talk) 13:59, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  He was born in a place that was within the range of definitions of "Palestine" before the Anglo-French agreements on the border more than a decade later.  For example, it is well inside the definition of "Palestine" that the Zionists tried to get the major powers to accept at the Paris peace conference. He lived in what became mandatory Palestine from before it became mandatory Palestine.  Nor did he change citizenship: Ottoman subjects living in Palestine became Palestinian citizens automatically.  Since his moving around did not involve crossing any borders, calling him an immigrant is dubious. Zerotalk 23:42, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The question is what was the  status of the  territories when he moved there, not what they were when he was born (that's totally irrelevant factor - do you think the thousands of Iraqi jews, born in Iraq pre-1920, who subsequently become Israeli citizens are also not emigrants?)  If he indeed "lived in what became mandatory Palestine from before it became mandatory Palestine." there might be merit to your claim, but I see no evidence of that in the article. Epson Salts (talk) 00:13, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle East, 2004 edition, says "Ahmad Shuqayri was a Palestinian born in Tibnin, Lebanon, while his father, the Islamic judge Shaykh Asʿad Shuqayri, was living there in exile. Ahmad returned to the family's home town of Acre in 1916. After studies there and in Jerusalem, he entered the American University of Beirut in 1926 but was expelled by French Mandate authorities the following year for Arab nationalist activities. Following his return to Palestine,..." So he was living in Palestine from 1916 to 1926, during which time the Ottoman Empire ended and the British Mandate started. Even his father was only away from Acre because he was exiled.  Definitely not an immigrant. Zerotalk 01:11, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: seems pretty self-contradictory to maintain that his father  was "in exile" from Palestine in Lebanon, but that the son moving from Lebanon to Palestine is not an immigarnt since both were the same country. But this is not that important a point If he was indeed in Acre  IN 1916, he is probably not an immigrant. Epson Salts (talk) 01:20, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it just means exiled from his home town. People who made trouble in one place could be forced to live somewhere else. Zerotalk 01:59, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: unexplained reverts 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I don't understand why the following  was removed, as it is so vital: his historic legacy and overall important 2 points, his ending at UN saluting Nazi group which caused an uproar from Argentina and Chile before being fired by host UAR, his alternative name Shukayri, and conclusion by author Moshe Shemesh - the very source which was in the entry before I came to edit. I was very careful not to remove, but to add info.
(PS
It's not about point of views of the conflict. But about accuracy).
Here's how the version was, before it was deleted. 
Ahmad al-Shukeiri (January 1, 1908 – February 26, 1980) () also transcribed al-Shuqayri, Shuqairi, Shuqeiri, Shukeiry, Shukayri, Shukairy, etc.), was the first Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization, serving in 1964–67.
 
Early life
Political career
Shukeiri was a member of the Syrian delegation to the United Nations from 1949 to 1951. He then became assistant Secretary General for the Arab League from 1950–56, Saudi ambassador to the United Nations from 1957 to 1962. At the 1964 Arab League summit (Cairo), he was given a mandate to initiate contacts aimed at establishing a Palestinian entity.
Shortly after Shukairy in November 30, 1962, has praised, saluted militant, anti-Jewish and neo-Nazi storm troop gang Congressional Record: Proceedings and Debates..., By United States Congress, 1965, Volume 111, Part 12, p.15916 Edy Kaufman, ‎Yoram Shapira, ‎Joel Barromi: Israeli-Latin American Relations, 1979, p.87. Ahmed Shukairy. then head of the Saudi Arabian delegation, openly praised the Argentine Nazi group Tacuara. The Argentine delegate expressed dismay.
 Facts, Volumes 15-17, p.424, Anti-defamation League of B'nai B'rith, 1963. In 1962 at the U.N., Shukairy even went so far as to praise the militant , anti-Jewish and neo-Nazi storm troop gang in Argentina known as Tacuara. Recall of Arab Delegate from U.N. is Sought; ‘saluted’ Tacuara, JTA, December 3, 1962 Chile Rebukes Arab Delegate at U.N. for ‘saluting’ Tacuara Group, JTA, December 4, 1962, he was subsequently fired from UN post. Israel’s Relations with Non-arab Lands in Middle East Irk Arabs, JTA, September 12, 1963. Mr. Shukairy was fired from his UN post by the Saudi Arabian Government last winter, after some Arab representatives felt he had gone too far in the diatribes against Israel by calling upon the UN to encourage formation of anti-Semitic organizations similar to the Tacuara movement in Argentina.
At the 1964 Arab League summit (Cairo), he was given a mandate to initiate contacts aimed at establishing a Palestinian entity.
Chairman of the PLO
In May 1964, he was elected the first Chairman of the PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization). He resigned in December 1967 in the aftermath of the Six-Day War in June. His enemies and opponents used him as a scapegoat.Moshe Shemesh, "Did Shuqayri Call For ‘Throwing the Jews into the Sea?’" Israel Studies, Summer 2003, p. 70
From May 28 to June 2, 1964 Shukeiri and 396 nominated representatives from Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, the Gaza strip, Egypt, Qatar, Kuwait, Libya and Iraq attended a Palestinian Conference (The First Palestinian National Council in East Jerusalem). Delegates wore badges carrying a map of Palestine and inscribed "We shall return". The Times reported that following an introductory address by King Hussein of Jordan, Shukeiri told delegates that "Palestinians had experienced 16 years' misery and it was time they relied on themselves and liberated Palestine from the Israelis". The conference announced the establishment of the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian Arabs. Shukeiri and his colleagues also announced the formation of the Palestinian National Fund, and at the Second Arab Summit Conference in Alexandria in September 1964 of a military wing, the Palestine Liberation Army. Shukeiri was succeeded as Chairman of PLO by Yahya Hammuda in December 1967.
It has been widely reported at the time
P.L.O., Set Back in Lebanon, Told by Allies to Compromise, by Henry Tanner Special to The New York Times. The New York Times, Dec 10, 1976. "Ahmed Shukairy, a firebrand orator who was forever exhorting the Arabs to throw the Jews into the sea." The Progress-Index from Petersburg, Virginia, June 13, 1967, p.4: Palestine Liberation Group Badly Mauled. By Michael Goldsmith, Beirut, Lebanon (AP). The Arab defeat in the Middle East war leaves a big question mark over the future of the Pafestine Liberation Organization and its firebrand leader -leftist Ahemd Shukairy. Shukairy narrowly escaped capture by Israeli forces in Jerusalem and many of his "Liberation Army" are now prisoners of the Israelis. "We will wipe Israel off the face of the map and no Jew will survive," Shukairy declared two days before the war broke out June 5. He vowed to lead the vanguard of his troops into the Israeli sector of Jerusalem and set up a "purely Arab government" there for all of Palestine.that Shukeiri called to throw the Jews into the sea. Moshe Shemesh, from what he concluded in his article Did Shuqayri Call for ' Throwing the Jews into the Sea'? ...At the same time, his statement "in my estimate none of them would remain alive" obviously sounded like the intention to destroy or liquidate the Jews and that their fate was sealed. It certainly lent credibility to the claim that he had called for throwing the Jews into the sea.Moshe Shemesh, Israel Studies, 2003, p.78
Swiss journalist J. Kimche reported: Mr Shukairy claims that when in his days of glory he publicly advocated the liquidation of Israel and “sweeping of the Jews into the sea”, he reflected the accepted official Arab outlook, an outlook that was changed only by the outcome of the war on 1967. Mr Shukairy is indignant that such extremism should be fathered on him alone.
The New Middle East, Issues 16-39, 1970, p.4
___
Here's more. This is from:
Congress Bi-weekly, Volume 30, 1963, p.5:
 
...debate on Arab refugees at the UN to praise the Tacuara for proclaiming a crusade against Zionism and Jews. The answer by Argentina's delegate to the UN , Garcia del Solar, to the paean of praise to genocide by Ahmad Shukairy, the Saudi Arabian delegate, was prompt and biting. 
He declared: In my country there is a full respect for human rights , a sentiment deeply rooted in Argentina and in Latin America in general. Any acts on the part of members of this group (Tacuara) in violation of those rights are and will be forcefully suppressed through the corresponding medium: the police.
My delegation feels that the contribution of Argentina to the strengthening and progress of the freedoms of mans, his happiness and survival, are more worthy to be mentioned than the genocidal intention attributed to a group of Nazis, on which the delegate of Saudi Arabia saluted my country.
Marinla (talk)
Marinla (talk) 02:01, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Alternativa name Shukairy, his saluting Nazi stormtroopers - backgroud for ending UN position, his legacy about annihilation quoting Moshe Shemesh

message: You reinserted "He was relieved from his post at the UN after praising the Argentinian far-right organization Tacuara." sourced to this 1962 article. However the source doesn't say that he was relieved of his post, only that his removal was being "sought". So currently there are two problems. (1) We don't have a source that he was fired, rather than resigned. (2) We don't have a source that his praise for Tacuara was the actual reason for his firing/resignation. The text has to be removed unless it can be sourced better.  Determining the actual date of his departure from the UN might shed some light on it. Zerotalk 04:37, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no need to remove anything. Shukeiri clearly praised the Tacuara organization, which caused discomfort among the Argentinian and Arab delegations. After all, it's not convenient for public relations when your representative openly supports a neo-nazi organization. I don't think it's a coincidence that his post at the UN ended the same month (December 1962) when he praised Tacuara. However, I've modified the text to address your concerns and reflect what source says more accurately without speculation. I hope it's enough.--Aroma Stylish (talk) 17:03, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

text: You are right. He was indeed fired for it! I'm changing back the text with this source.--Aroma Stylish (talk) 21:19, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  suspect text 

message: Hello. Could someone please add the following sentence in this section, next to where it says "Saudi ambassador to the United Nations from 1957 to 1962." (right before "At the 1964 Arab League summit (Cairo)..."):
However, he was relieved from his post at the UN after praising the Argentinian far-right organization Tacuara.Israel’s Relations with Non-arab Lands in Middle East Irk Arabs JTA, September 12, 1963
I think it was originally added by Marinla, but it got deleted. Thanks for your help.--Mustakhdamin (talk) 17:03, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Odd coincidence in this request; I won't spell it out. I tracked down the original UN records of this event and found that there was a sequel a few days later that is usually omitted for obvious propagandistic purposes. Both parts are now in the article with the best possible sources. Regarding his replacement as Saudi rep, it is true that someone else took his place a few days later but the reason is not clear. I think it is most unlikely that Saudi Arabia would announce that he had been fired, and most unlikely that the stated reason was as claimed. (The way these things work is that either his departure was left unexplained or he "resigned for personal reasons".) I don't trust the hostile JTA article on this, which after all lied by omission when it failed to mention Shukairy's change of mind. Zerotalk 02:25, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  
Edit request on 8 September 2020
 

message: Whoever edited this section did so with the purpose of whitewashing Moshe Shemesh’s analysis of the factuality regarding Shukeiri’s career-ending “Throw Jews Into The Sea” controversy. 
Will commence an appropriate re-edit of the section shortly, but recommend anyone curious to read Shemesh’s critical investigation into the facts around the incident, accusation, and Shukeiri’s subsequent denials: https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/30247797.pdf?refreqid=fastly-default%3A01c90487ab3b1149c321cd8bd954f720&ab_segments=&origin=&initiator=&acceptTC=1
In summation, Shemesh says: 
“The version in the Lebanese newspaper al-Yawm gives the im being closer to the truth than the doctored one in Shuqayr Although radical, the statement does not appear to imply tha to throw the Jews who "remained in Filastin," into the sea "if an His intention was that they would be deported overseas, by s countries of origin, in other words, by the same way they came the same time, his statement "in my estimate none of them alive" obviously sounded like the intention to destroy or liqui and that their fate was sealed. It certainly lent credibility to the he had called for throwing the Jews into the sea. This statement accompanied by reference to the extermination of the remain vice versa, namely the intention to annihilate the Jews was by a plan to throw them into the sea.”
And regarding what was considered the most reliable press quotation (from Lebanese news paper al-Yawm:
“The source of the accusation against Shuqayri came from an announcement he made at a press conference in East Jerusalem on June 2, 1967, after stopping off in Amman on the way back from Cairo in King Hussein's plane (Hussein left for Cairo on May 30 and returned the same day). According to the Lebanese daily Al-Yawm (3 June 1967), Shuqayri was asked what would happen to the citizens of Israel if the Arabs won the war. His answer: "We will endeavor to assist [the Jews] and facilitate their departure by sea to their countries of origin." Regarding the fate of Israeli-born Jews, he replied: "Whoever survives will stay in Filastin, but in my opinion no one will remain alive."
Will attend to this shortly. 
Mistamystery (talk) 23:57, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fundamental Mischaracterization of Shemesh source regarding “Throw Jews Into The Sea” controversy