Talk:K-9 (film)

message: This is long, but worth the read to truly understand the facts about the dog(s) used in the film, and support that Koton is the main dog used in the film, along with Rando (I thought there was a possibility that there was a relation between the dogs, similar to Benji and/or Lassie dogs used, but I don't believe this to be the case).
Ok, after a lot of research, could it possibly be that Rando/Koton/Jerry Lee are the same dog with different names used throughout it's/his career or that they are different dogs used within protions of the movie, with one acting more than the others? I know I can't prove it on here, but originally being from Kansas City and seeing this movie when I was young(er) and it becoming my favorite movie ever, to the point I nearly memorized it, and seeing news-related stories about the dog(s) which can not be verified online, I am very familiar with this movie and for the most part the status of the dogs.
There have been several changes regarding "Jerry Lee". I think this should solve the problem as to "who/which" was the actual dog. There were three Jerry Lee's within this one movie. There are two different ones used in the sequels. It is likely that Koton was the initial actor/dog used either for training purposes or actually acting in scenes, but due to his death, replacements were used (ie. Rondo and/or Jerry Lee). According to one source used currently in the article, there were "backup" dogs used in the film as well:
On the set of K-9, a 1989 Jim Belushi movie, the veritable star of the film was Rando, a German Shepherd. “We actually insured the animal for twenty-five million dollars,” says Kingman, “in the event of a death, injury or sickness that caused an abandonment of the film. There were some backups, but Rando was the hero dog.” To make certain—were something to happen to Rando—that the backup dogs would be able to replace him in his remaining scenes, the dogs were separated in transit in order to diversify the risks of losing the film’s star character. 
I believe that some sources credited "Rando" as "Koton" and "Jerry Lee". Perhaps during the filming process, one dog named Jerry Lee was used within the credits, but Rando did most of the 'hero' work or perhaps main acting, and one of the backup dogs was Koton, who was the Kansas City Police K-9. They all were in the film, but to say that Jerry Lee is actually Rando and credited incorrectly, is wrong. And to say Koton was the only dog, who was the police officer dying in the line of duty in 1991, would also be incorrect. They were all apart of the filming, but Jim Belushi probably worked most with Rando. If you check the IMDB, Rando also played in a TV movie called "K-9". The only other explanation, although sources give credit to Koton as well, is that Rando and Koton are the same dog but called one or the other at different times/projects, with Jerry Lee being the movie character name provided for credit purposes.
Another source currently being used in the article states:
...the German shepherd Jerry Lee. Jerry Lee is the co-starring character in a film called "K-9," scheduled for release in April. Like the Rin Tin Tin stories, "K-9" was inspired by real-life dogs. The writing began when a restaurant owner who served K-9 officers became fascinated with their police dogs.
So this is contrary to the fact that Rando is the "star". My contentions are that if Rando is the real dog called "Jerry Lee", that the other dogs (such as Koton) is one of the real-life K-9's who Jerry Lee was inspired by. Meaning, he was the real police dog that perhaps contributed to the filming, training, used as an example, etc.
And the third source in the article claims:
The search for Rando began about two years ago. "We looked at more than 40 dogs and didn't find the qualities we wanted," says Gail Mooring, Rando's owner and president of K-9 Paws, which provided technical advice for the movie. "The dog had to be very happy and have a lot of character, and, for reasons of cinematography, have a light face and the type of mask that goes around his eyebrows and the top of his head. American shepherds are bred mostly for dark pigment." Failing to find an American dog to fill the bill, Mooring's partner, Donn Yarnall, went to West Germany and bought four young shepherds for $10,000. 
All four went to work with veteran animal trainer Karl Miller, who had just 12 weeks to prepare them for stardom. First he had to teach them to respond to commands in English. "In the third week," says Miller, "Rando showed us that he was, indeed, Jerry Lee. The typical dog knows 10 or 15 commands, but Rando has anywhere from 125 to 150 actions that he has performed at one time or another. Anything the scriptwriters dream up, Rando can do. He even comes as close to smiling as I think a dog will ever come." 
Smiling and acting adorable aren't all Rando is called on to do though. "In the story," says Miller, "the dog has three different personalities. At times, he's just a slobbish, mischievous, self-willed animal. There are also times when he has to be a highly trained police dog. And then there are times in the script when he's a very noble, regal German shepherd. The one thing I couldn't train was the noble, regal part; the dog had to have that himself. And that's how Rando won the part." 
What this means is that there were more than one dogs used, such as Koton and Jerry Lee. In the process of filming, it's clear that Rando shined and that Rando became the lead (Jerry Lee) but that perhaps the others are still credited as working, contributing, training, etc. for the movie. Which is why sources show Koton and Jerry Lee as the actor as well. The above source also claims there are 'three personalities' that the dog shows, and perhaps at different times, Jerry Lee and Koton were used as substitutes for various scenes. It is clear that Koton was a real-life police dog who died in the line of duty and contributed to the movie. After multiple searches and perhaps uses of the dogs for scenes in the movie, I think they settled with Rando as the main contributing dog. But this shouldn't discredit the others. And maybe Jerry Lee didn't end up doing most of the film, but he is who was used in the credits. ---- BEFORE I HAVE SAVED THIS, I HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT KOTON IS THE MAIN DOG, AND RANDO WAS AN EXTRA THAT SOME REPORTS/MEDIA SHOWS AS THE ACTUAL ACTING DOG. SEE BELOW (THE END): 
Sources regarding Koton being in the movie and/or later killed in action as a police dog:  (via "oldhollywoodtrailers")  + more! (I realize that many sites/sources overlap and use the same information/text, but these mostly seem to be different/original verifications.)
This source claims KOTON is the dog starring as Jerry Lee and Rondo the Dog from the TV film, K-9. This may mean that Koton is the only dog, as Jerry Lee in this "K-9" feature film and as Rondo the Dog in the "K-9" television film? ---- AS I EDIT THIS BEFORE SENDING, I'VE COME TO THE KNOWLDGE THAT KOTON AND RANDO ARE CREDITED AS PLAYING JERRY LEE.
 
Koton was a real police K-9 dog that was used by the Kansas City (MO) police department paired up with Officer Patterson. Koton was responsible for over 24 felony arrests during his career as a K-9 officer. In October 1991, Koton found 10 kilos of cocaine worth an estimated $1.2 million. Unfortunately, less than a month later (Nov 18, 1991) Koton was shot and killed while attempting to apprehend a suspect in the murder of a police officer. 
Additional sources that Rando was in the movie:  (this was once Koton but changed later on IMDB due to this very "debate" I'm sure) 
Sources from the article (removed) regarding Rando being "the only" dog in the film: 
Sources regarding Jerry Lee being the actual dog or "character name" in the movie:  (same as above)  (same as above which mentions the dog as actor Rando AND Jerry Lee) 
I found more [reliable] sources claiming Koton was the actual dog in the movie, which is what the article first claimed. Not sure who changed Koton to Rando on IMDB, but it is not correct. Koton plays Rondo and Jerry Lee, perhaps. It's confusing and not sure any source is the "authority". Nonetheless, there are too many sources proving Koton was the police dog killed, not Rando. (For easy reference and to possibly include portions of it back into the article):
The dog credited in the part is Koton, a real-life police dog from the Kansas City, Missouri police department. 
According to IMDb, Jerry Lee was played by a real-life police dog named Koton from the Kansas City, Missouri police department. 
(Koton aka Jerry Lee was a real Kansas City, Missouri police dog. On November 18, 1991, he was shot and killed apprehending a suspect in the attempted murder of a police officer. Ten days before his death, Koton found ten kilos of cocaine worth more than 1.2 million dollars.) (These are in addition to the above sources used in the original edits about Koton that were removed but correct, and many are "blogged" reports of Koton's death.) Deleted Koton page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=7806891
 
Keep in mind that media/sources may have claimed the name of the dog at a specific time the movie was in production or during release based on "old" facts/knowledge, just like some articles may claim so-and-so is working on a project titled one thing, but when it comes out, it's another name and possibly another person/actor/artist, and the article/source/publication/stats/release/report is not updated to reflect the changes. This happens all the time. Once more, they all were probably (most likely and almost guaranteed) involved in the movie durring different portions of it, one just getting more recogniton than the other, and different people reporting who the dog really was (the actual dog's name being reported as one or the other by production staff to the "media"). 
One of the sources, to support it is Rando playing Jerry Lee, also states that Belushi said "the first Jerry Lee"... this could mean the first of the "K-9" movies, or first used of the three for the first film. Hard to say, but they all have to have an involvment in it, because too many sources reflect this fact. These two sources state Koton plays Jerry Lee (as Jerry Lee), which would probably mean there was a stand-in dog for the actual Jerry Lee dog doing some of the stunts, close-ups, etc. which is why the credits say "Jerry Lee as himself" I believe: 
All of this to say that I think the article needs to include all three as being used to film/produce the movie; Jerry Lee, Koton and Rando. The above sources I provided support this notion, and I may update it futher after more discussion. Please leave this within the talk page for this purpose. FYI: There used to be an Wiki article for Koton, but it no longer exists. Even if he wasn't the dog in the movie, the article mentioned his service and death as a real K-9 officer. The other dogs used for the sequels are correct, so this is just an issue with the first "K-9" movie. I hope this clears things up? Thank you and have a great day! 
P.S. It is likely that "Jerry Lee" was used to protect the actual police dog, Koton. Stating Jerry Lee as Jerry Lee in the credits, might have kept his identity private for legal/criminal purposes, instead of billing him as Koton. Then once he died in the line of duty, the "truth" came out about who he was, and Rando was probably a "stand-in". Also, edits were made and removed in the past. Let's discuss first before being sure "you/we" have the right answer. My conclusion is, again, that they all three contributed to the film and the article should therefore reflect this. 64.134.54.102 (talk) 11:51, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: UPDATE! While typing all of this up and doing research, I came across this source that basically proved what I believed to be the case (since finding this before posting this talk topic, I am not going to do any further searches and will update the article, since the way it was before was more correct than the current status about Rando.):  
*1. Jerry Lee is the "character" name.
*2. Koton is the actual actor/police dog in the film.
*3. Rando is one of three "doubles" brought in from Germany used, having to learn English commands, and acting as "Jerry Lee" in the movie along with Koton.
Character:
Jerry Lee
Role:
Det. Mike Dooley’s (James Belushi) partner.
Was chosen from the K-9 dogs unit training facility.
Jerry Lee destroyed Dooley’s car (ripped out the radio), his home, relationships and everything else.
There’s a famous scene in which Dooley puts Jerry Lee in a car wash machine.
Breed:
German Shepherd Dog
Played by: Koton & Rando
Info:
Kotton was a real police dog from the city of Kansas Missouri.
He was shot by a suspect in killing a police officer, and died on 18/11/1991, Ten days earlier Kotton found 10 kilograms of cocaine worth 1.2 million dollar.
Rando was one of three German shepherd dogs brought from Germany for the film, the other two were doubles. The dogs understood only commands in German and had to learn English.''
(Some of these ideas may conflict, as I was typing this up over a course of hours while doing research and never saved the original post, just kept adding to it. So it will appear as just one topic, with the conclusion/resolution at the end. I also tried to play "devil's advocate" for each dog, as if I was a different person arguing the claim, until it made sense that two dogs play Jerry Lee.)
64.134.54.102 (talk) 11:51, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  K-911 also uses three dogs (Mac, Sonto and Reno). 209.103.209.92 (talk) 12:54, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jerry Lee 

message: I am looking at the sources on this page and finding only 3 that qualify as reliable: Risk Management, The Los Angeles Times (newspaper); and People (magazine). Everything else fails reliability: user-generated, blogs, commercial sites, duplicates of IMDb (which is user-generested), duplicates of Wikipedia(!).  The Koton article here on WP was deleted due to "no reliable sources for Koton's existence...".
Taking the three that pass muster:
*None mention Koton. In any of them. Full stop.
*Rando had stand-ins. Risk Management simply says "the backup dogs", LA Times says "three stand-ins", and People states four dogs were started in training and "Rando won the part." Stand-ins do not merit mention in this case, the sources did not even bother to name them.
*Jerry Lee is the character's name. What you quoted above, from LA Times: "Jerry Lee is the co-starring character..." (emphasis added). The next paragraph starts, "James Belushi plays an unorthodox cop named Dooley, and Jerry Lee is his partner." They are connecting Jerry Lee to Dooley, not to Belushi, part to part, not actor to actor. None of the sources confuse the character with the dog playing the part.
Finally, no original research. We have to go by what the reliable sources say, and the reliable ones say Rando played Jerry Lee. 71.234.215.133 (talk) 06:19, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: With all due respect, sites specializing in dogs should be considered accurate (as provided in the prior editor's entries). People Magazine or LA Times won't (may not) report on it when there are reliable sources that specialize in K-9 news. Would BET.com report on the migration of salmon? Would NY TIMES report on what cement consists of? Would a NASA publication have an article about swimsuit models (instead of say, Sports Illustrated)? Not usually. There are different specialized sources for specific topics. It is clear that there are overlapping and similar views from both editors (including you). There are accurate points and clear citations for both views of Koton and Rando being involved in the film as Jerry Lee. Either include both or remove all if disputed. The editor before you at least included both (not "picking favorites"). And some sources are considered reliable, even if all of them are not. I'm not sure how long you've been apart of the edits on this article, but Koton (the police dog) was what was originally believed to be the dog in the film by most (on and off this site) and was what the article first claimed until [you] changed it to insert Rando. You also don't get to decide if there is an article for a dog or not (per your summary notes). There is one for the Hooch character (the Hooch film/article/character uses IMDB, just as an example): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooch_(Turner_%26_Hooch), among others, and there was one for the K-9 dog (whether he was the actual Jerry Lee or not) until you or someone else had it removed. (?) There is enough evidence about "Jerry Lee" to have it's own article if someone wanted to create it. There are many articles about all sorts of petty things on Wiki. Insignificant topics in the past aren't able to be proved online, yet almost every pop-culture activity that now happens, has an article created for it. And many are using "unreliable" sources (not major publications, news channels, etc.), yet still credible, and therefore mentioning that various sources claim more than one dog was involved in the movie, is the right thing to do. Thanks, and good day/night... 209.103.209.86 (talk) 23:58, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

text: P.S. Not sure if you read all of the previous editor's talk page notes, but it clearly shows that different dogs were acting as Jerry Lee, but perhaps only one was given public credit. It's not like the editor only provided one or two sources to support the text. This case is perhaps much like the dog who played in The Artist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uggie or Fraiser: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_characters_on_Frasier#Eddie as Moose: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moose_(dog) and Enzo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moose_(dog)#Enzo. Other dogs (stand-ins / stunt doubles) are used in presentations/interviews/skits or take over roles, but may not be the actual one credited in the film/show or wasn't the original dog cast or didn't end up completing the project. In situations like this, "facts/details/changes" get overlooked and may go unreported. Therefore, "original research" provides the truth/changes about a character that wasn't mainstream/public/commercial (only localized) at the time. Keep that in mind. For instance, a different "Uggie" showed up on Jimmy Kimmel's show (which he later pointed out during a monologue after he realized it) and during award shows. In the case of "Jerry Lewis", perhaps one universal dog got the credit when more than one actually contributed. We can't cherry pick when it's clear that more than one dog contributed, whether you like the sources or not. You have to at minimal include the statement that others contributed, not just "Rondo/Rando". I urge you to concede to that much at least. Therefore, Rondo/Rando can not take all the credit as being the only Jerry Lee acting in K-9. Other articles mention all dogs contributing in a project, but for some reason on this article, those facts are being suppressed. I trust you'll check/compare the "sources" used for those as well, and understand the point being made here. I want to make it very clear, I am not being combative or nasty with my messages. I appreciate the same respect should you respond. I am simply trying to assist in resolving the dispute/discrepancies. The simple fact that "Jerry Lee as himself" is being disputed in the first place, is proof that there are some inconsistencies. To challenge this, we must give each other the benefit of the doubt, respect good faith edits and come to a mutual agreement (not keep changing it to how we want). Thanks and take care! 209.103.209.86 (talk) 01:22, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Reliability and research

message: *Casting "Jerry Lee"
:There are many sources (some conflicting) claiming more than one dog was involved in the production of this film: Jerry Lee, Koton and Rando (and/or "extras"). Some reports focus on only one dog as the actor, but there were actually more than one used. 
:Koton (aka Jerry Lee) was a real Kansas City, Missouri police dog paired up with Officer Patterson. Koton was responsible for over 24 felony arrests during his career as a K-9 officer. On November 18, 1991, he was shot and killed apprehending a suspect in the attempted murder of a police officer. Less than a month before his death, Koton found ten kilos of cocaine worth more than 1.2 million dollars.)
:Arthur Betz and Robert Zides are credited for being Koton's handlers for the movie’s production. Karl Lewis Miller is credited for “animal action” (animal trainer and handler). Teresa Ann Miller (also known as the trainer for Rex) and R. Ruddell Weatherwax were credited as the dog trainers. Mark Mooring was the “technical adviser” for Koton.   
    
:Another source claims that Koton and Rando were both used in the film to play "Jerry Lee". However, the sheperd is billed in the movie credits "as himself". Donn Yarnall went to West Germany and bought four young German Shepherds for $10,000. Rando came from Germany to act as Jerry Lee, along with two other doubles. Gail Mooring was Rando's owner and the president of K-9 Paws. Karl Miller and his daughter Teresa taught Rando a second language in the process, having only known commands in German, not English. In a 2002 interview, Belushi remembers that "Rondo [sic] was a "prima donna". He was a good-looking dog with a close-up that the camera just loved, and he knew it. He was more moody, snotty even."     
:Research shows that Jerry Lee is credited as the movie star, but mainly Koton, and sometimes Rando as well, were the trained dog actors playing the various expressions, action scenes and personality as "Jerry Lee". 
*Reception
:However, not all reviews were negative, and for some was a "fan favorite". 
209.103.209.86 (talk) 20:48, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Something to think about (to whom it may concern): Some "reliable" sources may not have found it significant enough to report on this as it wasn't "newsworthy" enough for their publications (or wasn't transferred to the Internet since being possible common knowledge in 1989). Other sources did, and you have to take them into consideration if you're going to mention something "underwhelming" within an article. The Wiki rules provided as a reason not to include it, also states to take in consideration what the majority cites. There are more sources about Koton than any others. Fact is this: three dogs played/shared the part according to numerous resources (not just one). Some sources give greater influence/support to one specific dog for whatever reason. Loyalty to one dog, is not accurate. Rondo was one of the others selected as an extra. Koton is the one playing the majority of the role according to many sources (even if not considered reliable), whether it's correct on the Internet or not. Local Kansas City news would have reported on this since one dog was a real officer. That may not have made national news. The above editor being from Kansas City and being aware of the dog status may not be able to prove it, but there are at least some sources claiming this as well on the Internet which holds some weight. With that said, it's not important to prove anyone is right or to have the article read the way someone wants it to. Be content knowing that not all available sources are accurate on-line or may be biased, and therefore it's possible that other dogs contributed to the role of "Jerry Lee" whether it's included in the article or not and whether it can be proved or not. Also, the reporters to the major sources could have made a mistake and it was published incorrectly, even if it's considered a reliable newspaper. News channels reported the K-9 officer from the movie dying. Dedicated sites posted a memorial. I doubt [they] would do that and have the wrong name of the dog. Common sense has to play a role in edits as well. Nonetheless, they are all dead dogs who wouldn't normally be mentioned in any other article in such depth anyhow. They weren't in lead roles such as Lassie or Benji. Many won't even care about this even being mentioned (it is "trivial"), aside of the credits already listed for all of the actors who participated in the film. An attempt to give it proper research and to report it accurately was done in "good faith" by the previous editor. Other research done appears to be one-sided and limited. The other user(s) seemingly did extensive research (as shown above). I noticed that the spelling isn't even correct of Rando/Rondo. So who's to say what is right? My contentions are, there is a special attachment to one dog over the other by editors, and the article shouldn't reflect that. Again, if an article is going to mention generic facts, you have to sometimes rely on obscure sources, not just the main "reliable" ones that may not find it important to report on. (IE. New York Post, LA Times, People Magazine, etc.) Otherwise, the info doesn't even need to be mentioned if it's too conflicting, which according to past edits/reverts, has been the case. There seems to be a debate on the topic, and it's in my opinion to only include the section within the talk page and not within the article until it is proved/resolved or unless you state that "various sources claim one thing and others claim another", which the prior editor's input did clearly claim this view within the section. Not one source was supported over another, as the article previously made it clear there are conflicting reports on what the dog's name was (and most likely shared by several). Edit wars are not allowed and reverts shouldn't be done without a final agreement. There are many "rules" that others could use against one another, and this shouldn't be the main reason to finalize an edit as truth. (For instance, like some people use scripture against others to manipulate their agenda, while ignoring others they themselves violate.) P.S. The statement about the reviews is still accurate, and should have been left. Devil's advocate, perhaps, but all possible options/information/views should be included. The source provided linked directly to movie critic sites, it wasn't just "IMDB" hearsay. Wiki is full of similar edits that are approved/reliable. 209.103.209.86 (talk) 21:48, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverted/removed "good faith" edits for any future reference and/or discussion: 

message: Two users have disrespectfully deleted the movie's full plot in return for the synopsis. I have seen other Wikipedia articles with full movie plots and even they are in low stream like K-9, yet it seems like everybody doesn't want the full plot on this page for some unknown reason. For those that have deleted the plot "just because" you are not helping in any way whatsoever and are simply just making the page boring. However with a really full film plot like most every article on Wikipedia, people can understand the film more rather than a synopsis, and if you're concerned about spoilers, it doesn't matter anyway because every article has a spoiler. The whole point of article editing is to make pages more enjoyable to look at while also keeping it as historically accurate as possible for the viewers to learn; not make them feel uninterested.Marino13 (talk) 02:37, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a wildly inappropriate plot summary.  Please see WP:FILMPLOT, which says that they should have a maximum length of 700 words.  You need to edit this down to about half its current length. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:43, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, it was incredibly tedious, but I did it for you.  There's enough room for another 40 or 50 words, but I think it's got enough detail as is. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:35, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Marino13: edit summaries and a notice posted on the article about the plot being too long/wordy were reasons given for why your plot summary was removed (it wasn't "just because" as you stated). NinjaRobotPirate: thank you for your assistance in shortening the plot per WP:FILMPLOT. To future editors: again, reading talk pages first is important. As in the film, Jerry Lee is credited/billed as himself and it should stay that way (see above talk topics). The plot is also now fixed and does not need to be changed or extended/expanded. A short summary (brief synopsis) was moved to the beginning of the article as is done in most film articles. 71.87.47.222 (talk) 22:12, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Movie Plot 

message: James Belushi's first name in the film is Michael.
: After the last edit war over the character's name, I looked it up on Google and cited a source.  That said, I don't think it's very important, and we could probably just remove his first name since people are arguing over it.  I have no clue if it's spoken in the film itself; K-9 is over 25 years old, and I don't even remember if I watched it back then. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 20:33, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Character's First Name 

message: According to the Kansas City Police department the only dog killed in action on November 18th, 1991 was a K-9 Officer by the name of Star https://www.kcpd.org/about/specialized-units/canine-section/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:345:4380:1720:ACD8:D17A:C833:F816 (talk) 21:38, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Koton The Police Dog killed in action