Talk:Somaly Mam

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Somaly mam.jpg

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thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: Basic facts, and their page references from Somaly Mam's book:
[All page numbers reference the 2008 English language edition.]
 
*From Somaly's words [page 2]: "I was born sometime around 1970 or 1971, when the Troubles began in Cambodia."
*Grandfather & his age (about 55) first explained: [page 8] 
*Grandfather's abuse [page 14]: "Men hit more rarely, but when they do, it's more dangerous because they're so much stronger. I dreamed of killing Grandfather..."
*Regarding Grandfather [page 33]: (speaking with her adoptive mother) "...'perhaps it will be better with him [husband Than] than with your grandfather.' She and Father must have suspected how often I was beaten..."
===Regarding "rape" — Editors' Contributions vs. Sources===
User:98.193.145.148  on 2October2010  
[Boldface additions in response to this section:]
Essentially orphaned, Mam lived in the forest until a man picked her up and promised to find her mother. She became his slave. Mam was raped by the man until she was 13, when she was sold to a brothel and forced into prostitution.!!] <Correction> According to her book, "The Road To Lost Innocence"<c> 2005 Speigel & Grau, Somaly was not raped by "grandfather" but was sold to a merchant in her town for one experience when she was 13. Later, at age 14 "grandfather" sold her to a military man as his "wife" during which time she worked in a hospital as a nurse and was raped by the cheif [sic] doctor repeatedly. When her husband didn't return after a trip, "grandfather" returned and sold her into sexual slavery.
  
User:72.152.238.177 on 7October2010 
[middle edits - same as 74.x below] 
[First edit]Mam was raped by her "grandfather" until she was 14, when she was sold to a brothel and forced into prostitution. She was also forced to marry a stranger. Her husband was a fighter in the Khmer Rouge. Mam experienced violent beatings from her husband.  Eventually, her husband sold her off to a Phnom Penh brothel. It was in late 1980's and she was 15 years old.>  http://www.thestandard.com.hk/weekend_news_detail.asp?pp_cat=30&art_id=5939&sid=5471082&con_type=3&d_str=20051119 She had five or six clients per day. [etc...]
User:74.232.4.62 on 20October2010 
[most recent edits/restored text, includes:]
Mam was raped by her "grandfather" until she was 14, when she was sold to a brothel and forced into prostitution. She was also forced to marry a stranger. Her husband was a fighter in the Khmer Rouge. Mam experienced violent beatings from her husband.  Eventually, her husband sold her off to a Phnom Penh brothel. It was in late 1980's and she was 15 years old.  http://www.thestandard.com.hk/weekend_news_detail.asp?pp_cat=30&art_id=5939&sid=5471082&con_type=3&d_str=20051119  She had five or six clients per day. [etc...]
  
I have to take issue with some of User:72.x/74.x's statements: 
First, regarding "raped by her Grandfather" is not supported by any source. 
 
Look at two professional reviews:
From Booklist magazine (the journal of the ALA): 
"Sold into slavery as a young girl—first as an indentured servant to a surly, violent older man, then, at 16, to a brothel—..." —Emily Cook
 
  
Publishers Weekly wrote in September 2008:
"...a 55-year-old stranger claims he will take her to her missing family. Grandfather beats and abuses the nine-year-old Mam and sells her virginity to a Chinese merchant to cover a gambling debt. She is subsequently sold into a brothel in Phnom Penh..."
 
 
Neither of these notable sources inferred from the text that Grandfather ever raped Somaly Mam.  Abused, yes, raped, no. Be careful with accusatory language. Especially since in the Acknowledgements of her book [page 192], Mam thanks  "...Alain Carrière, my French publisher, whom I view as an adoptive grandfather...". 
 
Other than the beatings, Mam only states [page 23]: 
"My breasts were growing, and Grandfather began touching them. He would roll heavily across the sleeping pallet at night and I would feel his hands on me. When he did this I ran..."
 
The first mention of "rape" in Mam's book is page 25 (talking about the Chinese merchant) and page 38 (talking about the doctors raping her). Then not again until page 59 referring to "men in Cambodia". 
Another problematic phrasing by User:72.x/74.x: 
"Eventually, her husband sold her off to a Phnom Penh brothel. It was in the late 1980's and she was 15 years old." No, the cited article does NOT say this. Merely that her first husband sold her to a brothel in the late 1980's. No mention of her age. She would have been almost twenty then. But the book does not support either sentence. It was her Grandfather who returned to sell her to the brothel after her marriage, while her husband was away fighting with the Khmer Rouge. Reporters often get things wrong, and the Chinese Standard reporter messed this one up, and the Wiki editor had no business adding an unsourced age to it.  
 
The next paragraph, "She saw her best friend shot by her pimp..." should say "a pimp", as the article makes no specific mention of whose pimp it was. Again, beware of making Original Research conclusions. Don't misquote or misinterpret the sources! 
 
— DennisDallas (talk) 14:53, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Somaly_Mam#Early_Life|''Early Life'']] details and references 

message: User:98.193.145.148  on 2October2010  
[Boldface additions in response to this section:]
Essentially orphaned, Mam lived in the forest until a man picked her up and promised to find her mother. She became his slave. Mam was raped by the man until she was 13, when she was sold to a brothel and forced into prostitution.!!] <Correction> According to her book, "The Road To Lost Innocence"<c> 2005 Speigel & Grau, Somaly was not raped by "grandfather" but was sold to a merchant in her town for one experience when she was 13. Later, at age 14 "grandfather" sold her to a military man as his "wife" during which time she worked in a hospital as a nurse and was raped by the cheif [sic] doctor repeatedly. When her husband didn't return after a trip, "grandfather" returned and sold her into sexual slavery.
  
User:72.152.238.177 on 7October2010 
[middle edits - same as 74.x below] 
[First edit]Mam was raped by her "grandfather" until she was 14, when she was sold to a brothel and forced into prostitution. She was also forced to marry a stranger. Her husband was a fighter in the Khmer Rouge. Mam experienced violent beatings from her husband.  Eventually, her husband sold her off to a Phnom Penh brothel. It was in late 1980's and she was 15 years old.>  http://www.thestandard.com.hk/weekend_news_detail.asp?pp_cat=30&art_id=5939&sid=5471082&con_type=3&d_str=20051119 She had five or six clients per day. [etc...]
User:74.232.4.62 on 20October2010 
[most recent edits/restored text, includes:]
Mam was raped by her "grandfather" until she was 14, when she was sold to a brothel and forced into prostitution. She was also forced to marry a stranger. Her husband was a fighter in the Khmer Rouge. Mam experienced violent beatings from her husband.  Eventually, her husband sold her off to a Phnom Penh brothel. It was in late 1980's and she was 15 years old.  http://www.thestandard.com.hk/weekend_news_detail.asp?pp_cat=30&art_id=5939&sid=5471082&con_type=3&d_str=20051119  She had five or six clients per day. [etc...]
  
I have to take issue with some of User:72.x/74.x's statements: 
First, regarding "raped by her Grandfather" is not supported by any source. 
 
Look at two professional reviews:
From Booklist magazine (the journal of the ALA): 
"Sold into slavery as a young girl—first as an indentured servant to a surly, violent older man, then, at 16, to a brothel—..." —Emily Cook
 
  
Publishers Weekly wrote in September 2008:
"...a 55-year-old stranger claims he will take her to her missing family. Grandfather beats and abuses the nine-year-old Mam and sells her virginity to a Chinese merchant to cover a gambling debt. She is subsequently sold into a brothel in Phnom Penh..."
 
 
Neither of these notable sources inferred from the text that Grandfather ever raped Somaly Mam.  Abused, yes, raped, no. Be careful with accusatory language. Especially since in the Acknowledgements of her book [page 192], Mam thanks  "...Alain Carrière, my French publisher, whom I view as an adoptive grandfather...". 
 
Other than the beatings, Mam only states [page 23]: 
"My breasts were growing, and Grandfather began touching them. He would roll heavily across the sleeping pallet at night and I would feel his hands on me. When he did this I ran..."
 
The first mention of "rape" in Mam's book is page 25 (talking about the Chinese merchant) and page 38 (talking about the doctors raping her). Then not again until page 59 referring to "men in Cambodia". 
Another problematic phrasing by User:72.x/74.x: 
"Eventually, her husband sold her off to a Phnom Penh brothel. It was in the late 1980's and she was 15 years old." No, the cited article does NOT say this. Merely that her first husband sold her to a brothel in the late 1980's. No mention of her age. She would have been almost twenty then. But the book does not support either sentence. It was her Grandfather who returned to sell her to the brothel after her marriage, while her husband was away fighting with the Khmer Rouge. Reporters often get things wrong, and the Chinese Standard reporter messed this one up, and the Wiki editor had no business adding an unsourced age to it.  
 
The next paragraph, "She saw her best friend shot by her pimp..." should say "a pimp", as the article makes no specific mention of whose pimp it was. Again, beware of making Original Research conclusions. Don't misquote or misinterpret the sources! 
 
— DennisDallas (talk) 14:53, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Regarding "rape" &mdash; ''Editors' Contributions vs. Sources''

message: AFESIP - the French acronym for Agir pour les Femmes en Situation Precaire is properly (and officially) translated as Acting for Women in Precarious Situations. [per www.AFESIP.org website]
 
In 2005-era news articles, and in the 2008 book edition (as well as the original Wikipedia version), the word "Circumstances" appeared instead of "Situations". The editor making the current change did not cite a source. — DennisDallas (talk) 15:33, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  AFESIP acronym 

message: According to Cambodia Daily, Mam is said to have claimed that her daughter was kidnapped and abused as retaliation against her work. Her ex-husband disputes this, saying that the daughter was not kidnapped, but had differences with Mam and left home to live with a boyfriend in a different city:
http://www.camnet.com.kh/cambodia.daily/selected_features/Apr_12/More%20Questions%20Over%20Somaly%20Mam%27s%20Kidnapping%20Claim.htm
While nothing so far either way has been included about this incident in the article, if it is to be included, it should be noted that Mam's version of the events is disputed.
I'll also note that Mam has come in for considerable criticism by opponents of "raid and rescue" tactics toward sex workers, and that where these criticisms are published in verifiable sources, they should be reported in an NPOV manner as part of this article. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 12:36, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There are now further questions about her work (see: http://www.cambodiadaily.com/news/secrets-and-lies-44964/ ), so this page will need some updating. Currently it reads like a hagiography. Haminoon (talk) 03:53, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further questions about Mam's claims 

message: As a result of a Newsweek article showing that Mam's claims of being a victim of abuse and sex trafficking were lies, Mam resigned from the Somaly Mam Foundation.
Somaly Mam: The Holy Saint (and Sinner) of Sex Trafficking, http://www.newsweek.com/2014/05/30/somaly-mam-holy-saint-and-sinner-sex-trafficking-251642.html 
Crusader Against Sex Trafficking Quits Amid Charges Stories Were Fabricated, http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/30/world/asia/anti-trafficking-activist-quits-amid-charges-stories-were-fabricated.html
64.134.240.111 (talk) 19:06, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  May 2014 revelations 

message: The foundation said Somaly Mam resigned following an investigation by U.S. law firm Goodwin Procter, which looked into her personal history and the background of a victim of trafficking whose story the foundation used to publicise its work.
"As a result of Goodwin Procter's efforts, we have accepted Somaly's resignation effective immediately," Gina Reiss-Wilchins, executive director of the Somaly Mam Foundation, said in a statement.''''
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/05/29/uk-cambodia-activist-idUKKBN0E917C20140529 
64.134.240.111 (talk) 19:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Goodwin Procter 64.134.240.111 (talk) 20:06, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  investigation by Goodwin Procter 

message: Cambodian Hero and Socialite “Fabricated” Sex Trafficking Stories, The Diplomat, http://thediplomat.com/2013/10/cambodian-hero-and-socialite-fabricated-sex-trafficking-stories/
Somaly Mam Admits to Inaccuracies in Speech to UN, The Cambodia Daily, http://www.cambodiadaily.com/archives/somaly-mam-admits-to-inaccuracies-in-speech-to-un-1590/
Somaly Mam Resigns Following Articles Exposing Fabrications, http://www.cambodiadaily.com/news/somaly-mam-resigns-following-articles-exposing-fabrications-59976/
More Questions Over Somaly Mam’s Kidnapping Claim, http://www.cambodiadaily.com/archives/more-questions-over-somaly-mams-kidnapping-claim-1592/
64.134.240.111 (talk) 20:21, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other articles 

message: Here is a good question: Is having a see-also link between two articles a coat rack? Greg Mortenson and Somaly Mam both are accused of fabricating portions of their biographies to enhance their charities. Is having a see-also link between the two a coat rack? Come to Talk:Greg Mortenson and join the discussion one way or the other.  Would your average reader want to jump between the two articles based on that connection. If you are reading about someone accused of fabrication of a significant event that got them starting a charity, would you want to read about someone else in the same situation? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:00, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greg Mortenson and Somaly Mam see-also link 

message: Should the "see-also" section contain a link to Greg Mortenson with the text "also accused of fabricating portions of his biography to enhance his charity"? One person deleted it saying it was "unrelated" and a second deleted it saying it was "undue". Both biographies have large sections covering the fabrications. When I was reading her article, I was thinking "who was that other guy in the same situation, the mountain climbing guy." I think other readers are thinking the same thing and should be able to switch between the two. What do you think? Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:50, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You are not alone in disliking it, especially if the links seem arbitrary. "See also" sections will hold articles back from promotion to good and featured. Jonathunder (talk) 16:55, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: RfC: see-also link to Greg Mortenson

message: This topic was also discussed at two other pages: Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 119#Somaly Mam, character assasination of an anti-sex slavery advocate and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive217#Somaly Mam Oiyarbepsy (talk) 02:48, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion elsewhere

message: If anyone thinks there is anything salvagable from the deleted foundation article that can be merged into this article the archive is here. Although most of the article is advertising with some weak criticism at the end. -- haminoon (talk) 20:37, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Somaly Mam Foundation article 

message: Cyberbot II has detected links on Somaly Mam which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global
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From your friendly hard working bot.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 17:07, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on [[Somaly Mam]] 

message: Cyberbot II has detected links on Somaly Mam which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global
If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally.
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Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.
Below is a list of links that were found on the main page:
*http://www.change.org/changemakers/view/somaly_mam
*:Triggered by \bchange\.org\b on the local blacklist
If you would like me to provide more information on the talk page, contact User:Cyberpower678 and ask him to program me with more info.
From your friendly hard working bot.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 00:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on [[Somaly Mam]] 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Somaly Mam. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.somaly.org/media/press/somaly-mams-resignation
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I don't see any reference to this in the article, but it seems Somaly Mam and her handlers undertook a paid PR offensive in late 2014, one offshoot of which was the Marie Claire article supposedly rebutting the Newsweek article:
The Baffler: The Return of America’s Favorite Anti-Trafficker
Considering that this article was heavily edited at one point based on this "rebuttal", I think some revision is in order. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 19:13, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baffler on Somaly Mam PR Offensive