Template talk:Islam/Archive 1

message: How about this - the shahada (la ilaha il Allah, Muhammdun rasool Allah), written in Arabic calligraphy - in the form of a crescent star. :)
Bobaa904 22:56, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to admit this is kinda cute. A bit hollow though - might be better with the words filled in. - Mustafaa 12:33, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Proposal for Logo 

message: Someone has changed the entries under "People" to "Caliph" and "Shia Imam", respectively, from "Caliphs" and "Shia Imams". I know the articles are titled in the singular and are fundamentally about the title/office. But the link from here is an effort to provide a place for people to look to find out about the people who were Caliphs and Shia Imams. What say?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 20:49, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
:When a template is added to an article, each name in the template box links to the relevant article, except that the name of the current article is in bold and not a link.  Caliphs is a different word from Caliph (even though one redirects to the other); therefore the name Caliphs did not have this differentiation within the Caliph article's template-box. Similarly for Shia Imam.  That's the reason I changed these titles.  By all means use the plural if this is appropriate, but as Caliphs and Shia Imams to preserve this formatting. Joestynes 00:53, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  People: Caliph/Caliphs and Imam/Imams 

message: Can we add a link to Muslim music and or its :Category:Muslim music and perhaps more about Islamic culture? Hyacinth 18:51, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Muslim music

message: Do the Alawis and the consider themselves a separate faith? If not, then they may belong under "Non-Mainstream Sects". I interpret that to be sects that see themselves as true Muslims or "The True Muslims", but whom the majority of other Muslims, like the Shia, the Sunni, etc., do not consider Muslims at all--The Ahmadiyya, for example.
Ditto the Druze--do they consider themselves as beyond the community of Mohammad--like the Babis and Bahais do; or the Muslims do vis-a-vis Christianity or Christians vis-a-vis Judaism? If they do, then they belong under "Related Faiths".
Am I making any sense?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 21:20, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
Judging by the articles, the answer is "yes" for Alawis, and ambiguous for Druze: "The Druze faith keeps its tenets secret" and "some Druze say that their religion is an Islamic one". - Mustafaa 03:11, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: One must take into consideration that in some Muslim countries apostacy is a capital crime. It is highly probable that the Druze only call themselves an "Islamic faith" to avoid persecution. It is true that the Druze are like the Ahmadiyya in which they accept another prophet after Mohammad. However, the Druze live in their own separate communities, are allowed to pray with Christians and Muslims alike, and the religion is occulted. Only the priests know anything about the religion. So the Druze could fit into either category. -- 21:31, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alawi and Druze 

message: This article forms part of the seriesIslam                                                     	This article forms part of the seriesIslam
Vocabulary of Islam                                                                            	Vocabulary of Islam
Five Pillars                                                                                   	Five Pillars
Profession of faithPrayer ·  Alms · FastingPilgrimage to MeccaJihad (See Sixth pillar of Islam)	Profession of faithPrayer ·  Alms · FastingPilgrimage to MeccaJihad (See Sixth pillar of Islam)
People                                                                                         	People
MuhammadProphets of IslamCaliph · Shia ImamCompanions of Muhammad                              	MuhammadProphets of IslamCaliph · Shia ImamCompanions of Muhammad
Holy Cities                                                                                    	Events
Mecca ·  MedinaJerusalemNajaf ·  KarbalaKufa ·  KazimainMashhad ·  Samarra                     	HijraIslamic calendarEid ul-FitrEid ul-AdhaAashuraArba'in
Buildings                                                                                      	Religious Roles
Mosque · MinaretMihrab · KaabaIslamic architecture                                             	Muezzin · ImamMullah · MuftiAyatollah
Texts & Law                                                                                    	Texts & Law
Qur'an · Hadith · SunnahFiqh · Fatwa · Sharia                                                  	Qur'an · Hadith · SunnahFiqh · Fatwa · Sharia
Sharia Schools                                                                                 	Kalam Schools
HanafiHanbaliJafariMalikiShafi'i                                                               	Ash'ariJabriyyaMaturidiMurjiteMu'taziliQadariyya
Shi'a sects                                                                                    	Kharijite Sects
Ithna AshariaIsmailiyahZaiddiyah                                                               	SufriAzraqiIbadi
Movements                                                                                      	Movements
Sufism · Wahhabism · Salafism                                                                  	Sufism · Wahhabism · Salafism
Other Sects                                                                                    	Related Faiths
AhmadiyyahNation of IslamFive PercentersZikri · Druze                                          	AlawiBabismBahá'í FaithYazidi
It seems to me that the template has grown to a quite ungainly size.  I propose one of two things:
#Cutting and consolidating template items to remove anything extraneous.  The template does not need to encompass every possible aspect of Islam.  The Islam page can do a much better job of that anyhow.
#Someone with some time and proper HTML skills use some table magic to save space, perhaps shifting items into a two column format where width permits. Like so:  I've gone ahead and redone the whole template in a much more compact and less obtrusive format.  I think with a bit of tweaking here and there it would be a strong replacement.  Thoughts?
:I definitely like that better gren 04:39, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's okay.  I can just convert the existing template, rather than have to try and determine what has changed and merge the two.  It'll probably be simpler that way.  I just didn't want to make a large change like this without at least some approval from others here. —thames 15:04, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: If the perspective of one who knows very little about Islam is worth something: I find this template contains far too many links of too many levels of detail.  One anomaly is that Sunni Islam is not even on the template, presumably because it's too high-level; if there were 5 subtypes within Sunni they would each be listed.  My recommendation would be to remove all the subarticles listed under Sharia Schools, Kalam Schools, Shi'a sects, Kharijite Sects, Other Sects, and Related Faiths, leaving just the headword article for each.  The relevant headword article itself enumerates each of the subtypes; there's no need to include them in the template.  As gren states, the job of providing an overview of Islam is not one for the template, it's for the Islam article.  On the other hand, attempting to capture every article on Islam is not the job of the template either, it's for :Category:Islam (and subcategories) Joestynes 07:07, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not meant to capture every article nor does it.  I would also argue that it's jnot too confusing on the basis that you have a linke to Islam and the five pillars at the top and those will give you a basis for Sunni or Shia.  If we remove anything it should be the litany of cities that in themselves have no worth.  gren 13:17, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text:  I think a quick reference article would be much more user-friendly.  See also policy on series boxes for some pertinent considerations.  Joestynes 09:59, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Size of the Template 

message: Isn't that a Sufi Tariqa rather than a school of theology? Or am I confused?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 00:09, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
: It's both: , .  I don't know if the two are linked. - Mustafaa 03:14, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Qadariyya 

message: Heading lines are "cut" by this infobox. How do we resolve this issue? - Ta bu shi da yu 05:24, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heading lines 

message: The new darker colors ar reall ugly.... gren グレン 22:18, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Then change them ;)...Heraclius 22:20, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I only changed the um strange yellowish color to grey. Maybe a lighter shade of grey would be better? I couldnt stand the strange yellowish color anymore. --Zeno of Elea 22:44, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Gray and green reminds me of harry potter colors.  I preferred the yellow but I think gray is just clashing.  This Christianity one has nice color meshing I think... because I stole the colors from the Jesus template when I made it..  It should be a much lighter color and probably an earth tone which gray is not. gren グレン 23:02, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Well, I liked how it was... and it seems to be reverted back to that way... but Zeno wanted it differently... and I just think that gray was really bad. gren グレン 06:21, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Colors 

message: Comentary and poll can be found here if intrested.--Tznkai 03:51, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Poll removed

message: Zeno's behaviour on this and related talk pages is becoming increasingly unacceptable. This is saddening, since orignially I perceived him as an intelligent and knowledgeable critic of Islam. Now he is basically just trolling. Of course a calligraphy of the name of God will be appropriate on this template (hello? the topic of this template is Islam, how is it not going to be Islam-centric??), likewise for the green colour: One may argue against it on grounds of graphical taste, but to denounce it from anti-Islamic motives is ridiculous. Zeno, if your behaviour continues to deteriorate like this, you may find yourself wound up in the formal aspects of Wikipedia:dispute resolution soon. dab (ᛏ) 13:15, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dab, I gave Zeno a stern warning last night, and he seemed to erm... get worse in response. Including a claim to be the editor in cheif of wikipedia. I hope that was a joke. At any rate, I promised various admins to give it a week, and ask you do the same. If it doesn't improve, I will assist you with the needed procedures.--Tznkai 15:42, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Dab: When and where did anyone complain, that the template was too "Islam-centric" and where did anyone "denounce" the green color "from anti-Islamic motives"? Anyway, the purpose of this talkpage is not to discuss individual users, and any personal remarks should be avoided. We all got personal talk pages for any kind of personal discussions. -- Karl Meier 13:46, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Zeno should take his particular taste for templates to the other religious templates and see what people think.Heraclius 15:16, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

text: right, I apologize; this was frustration built up over some time on various talkpages. carry on, I do not want to chime into this particular dispute. although I do think it is ridiculous to denounce the placing of the Allah calligraphy, and not the cross image or the aum, as an act of devotion. I do think :Image:Shahada crescent.png (maybe with png transparency?) is nice too, but there may be copyright issues. dab (ᛏ) 11:15, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Zeno

message: I am taking a week long leave from this article at the suggestion of various admins, especially user:kmccoy. Before I do so, I will leave my opinions, observations, as my standing "vote" while I'm off.
Template colors: Keep it uniform with the rest of Wikipedia. Who cares if its "ugly?" Its functional, and readable, and ignorable if people don't want to read the rest of the series.
Template Size: Too big. Taking up more space than other Templates, doesn't need too. Cut it down to the essentials and shrink.
Inclusion of Jihad: Its probably roughly as important as the doctrine of grace in Christianity. Or possibly its just a new word for a common religious concept. At any rate, a Jihad is a theological concept, justifying and extoling certain actions under certain conditions. This is parallel to the theological doctrines of Works, Grace, Salvation, etc.
Symbol: So far, the strongest consensus seems to exist with going with no symbol. To paraphrase user:geogre: "WIKIPEDIA IS NOT THE PLACE FOR ULTIMATE TRUTH" it is a place for the summarization, collation, and reporting of observed facts about other person's observations, analysis in published works. In otherwords, Notability is important, as is Consensus and Compromise. So play nice please kids.
Other issues: anyone considering an RFC to get the opinions of the wider wikipedian community? By its nature, religious articles attract those who have strong POVs for or against.
See you in 7 days unless something extraordinarly stupid happens here.--Tznkai 15:58, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree heartily about the template size.  Compare the old Christianity template with the new one: ; as well as the old Communism template with the new one: .  —thames 17:55, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

text: This is a strong vote of support for your new version. It's cleaner, tighter, more relevent, and, of course, I far prefer "Jihad" in a "See Also" section than "Fundamental Principles". — Asbestos | Talk 10:29, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a much better looking template, for sure.Heraclius 21:13, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A couple template issues: 

message: I tried reading the talk page to see about a picture, but it's brain deadening. It seems obvious to me that the star and crescent should be used, but since there seems to be people set on not using it, can we take a poll? The options would be: use the crescent, use the calligraphy of Allah, don't use any picture. I'll leave it up to someone who knows what they're doing to set up the voting. Cunado19 02:33, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I just noticed a poll was just taken with no apparent consensus. Never mind. Can we just start a revert war then? I'll join the side of the crescent moon. Cunado19 02:47, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Image:Shahada crescent.png has been mentioned as a possible compromise, but there might be a copyright issue with that, that'll properly need to get solved. -- Karl Meier 06:35, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poll