Talk:Scouting controversy and conflict/Archive 1

message: This article needs expansion and addition of Scouting controversies and conflicts. Discuss what the problems are in countries and regions around the world on this Talk page. Also, add to the discussions in progress on this Talk page. --Jagz 22:50, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article needs to be expanded 

message: I propose the following controversies/problems for inclusion in this article:
* Worldwide: 
** the growth of non-aligned/independent Scouting organizations (mainly in Europe and the Americas)
** the controversy around the Scout Promise and the Duty to God; can be expanded to cover 
** the controversies on Religion and Scouting (there is a lot of them)
** cooperation/merger of WAGGGS and WOSM
** Scouting in totalitarian countries
** Exclusion from WAGGGS/WOSM for political reasons (eg Poland, Yugoslavia - there must be some more)
* France and French speaking countries
** Unitarian Scouting/the controversy on the organization of the core section
All this needs a lot of recherches, but these are really existing controversies who are of concern for all Scouts and Guides. --jergen 10:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've changed the name of the article to clarify its scope. The name should be kept short and simple if possible. A longer name would make the purpose of the article clearer of course but is not really necessary. --Jagz 11:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I didn't propose a renaming but some of the real controversies for inclusion. --jergen 12:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I think the article should be written for the average person, not just for people associated with Scouting. The religious and Duty to God issues can be incorporated into Religion in Scouting. --Jagz 20:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I've added some sections to the article that cover some of the issues you listed. I'm not familiar with some of the controversies you mention like the cooperation/merger of WAGGGS and WOSM. I suggest you add sections to the article to cover this and other controversies. --Jagz 22:14, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At the start of Scouting in the Netherlands the Dutch were still very pro-boer so B-P himself and England were controversial. Maybe there are still controversies in some countries about that Scouting came from England / the western world. --Egel Reaction? 22:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal for some more content

message: Is homosexuality a Scouting controversy anywhere except the United States? --Jagz 21:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion, homosexuality would need to be a controversy in more than one country to be included in this article. --Jagz 16:43, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article now has a section on excluding individuals from membership and I included this topic as a subsection. --Jagz 02:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homosexuality 

message: Is democratic structure a Scouting controversy either within countries or at the World Organization of the Scout Movement level? For instance as stated in the Scouts Canada article: 
Some members of Scouts Canada are upset with Scouts Canada's restructuring, including a loss of voting rights at the local level. In response, SCOUT eh! was founded in 2004, an organization consisting of "registered Scouts Canada members from across Canada dedicated to transforming Scouts Canada into a democratic association"  
Also, in the United States, religious organizations exert influence over the Boy Scouts of America at the national level. --Jagz 21:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Democracy 

message: Is segregation a Scouting controversy? There was racial segregation in the Boy Scouts of America up until the 1940s; before then African Americans had to form separate troops. Is there social class segregation in Scouting in India, etc.? --Jagz 21:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There was segregation/apartheid in Scouting in Southern Africa:  South_African_Scout_Association#History The Boy Scouts Association of Zimbabwe --Egel Reaction? 21:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Segregation 

message: The article currently only mentions Iraq. Jergen mentioned Poland and Yugoslavia being excluded from WAGGGS/WOSM for political reasons. What other countries should be mentioned? --Jagz 22:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hungary AFAIK. Sources are packed away. More perhaps next week. --jergen 10:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exclusion or expulsion of Scouting organizations from international organizations 

message: Are there additional Scouting controversies that should be in this article? --Jagz 23:01, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Scouting controversies? 

message: Egel commented:
"At the start of Scouting in the Netherlands the Dutch were still very pro-boer so B-P himself and England were controversial. Maybe there are still controversies in some countries about that Scouting came from England / the western world."
Are there other controversies in the world about Scouting originating in England or the Western World? --Jagz 23:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scouting from England/Western World 

message: Scouting had in its early days major problems with its acceptance in the Catholic Church since it was viewed as masonic. The most recent incident occured in Austria; for details see Katholische Pfadfinderschaft Europas. --jergen 21:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scouting and the Catholic Church 

message: The Boy Scouts of America and Scouts Canada have actively protected their trademarks to words like "Scout" and "Scouting" through legal means. The result has been the suppression of rival organizations. --Jagz 10:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not often I bring my POV into discussions on Scouting articles, but I do so now. What you describe is unscouting and unethical. How can any Scout defend this? --Bduke 11:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Its a WWBPD ("What Would Baden-Powell Do").  Lord B-P himself help the Boy Scouts of America stop the American/US Boy Scouts by lying under oath in a US Court that he intendent to have Boy Scouts to be an organization, not a movement and/or adjuct to other youth program (like Boys' Brigade and Church's Lad Brigades) like the facts were in Britian.  In Britian, Boy/The Scout Association moved to restrict any rights to use Boy Scout in an attempt to squash British Boy Scouts, a merger of the Battersea Boy Scouts  *(break away), London troops and CHUM Scouts (see their article).  On top of that, US Congress in giving the Federal Government Charter to the Boy Scouts of America included all rights which stopped pre-existing "Boy Scout" novel series, toys, etc. and they even sued the Girl Scouts, as Camp Fire Girls was the original official BSA girls affiliate.  Here BSA [Wrenn_v._Boy_Scouts_of_America|sued]] the Youthscouts more recently.  Spshu (talk) 21:22, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trademark protection 

message: I moved this section from the article until it is cleaned up. It was in the article for an extended period of time without substantial editing. --Jagz (talk) 17:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The section is excessively focused on Baden-Powell. The section should be about militarism and Scouting in general, not just how it relates to Baden-Powell. I added a POV template to the section. --Jagz (talk) 17:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This article for example says that there was a, "shift in position towards that of a non-military organisation", early in the Scouting movement. --Jagz (talk) 06:08, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The article Order of World Scouts says, "In 1909, a group of troops withdrew from Baden-Powell's Boy Scouts Association and formed the British Boy Scouts (BBS), out of a concern that Baden-Powell's association was too bureaucratic and militaristic." --Jagz (talk) 16:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Militarism 

message: Egel mentioned a controversy with uniforms:
"The uniform is one of the few aspects of Scouting that has some controversies, problems, criticisms in the Netherlands and probably the rest of Europe because people easily associate uniforms with military and fascist youth movements. This is one of the reasons that the European Scouting uniforms are so colorful."
Are there any other Scouting controversies about militarism? --Jagz 22:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uniforms 

message: has sketchy references to the US civil rights movement and the Indian resistance movement but I could'nt find anything about that in the article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.158.77.150 (talk) 00:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The lead 

message: *Controversies have arisen from the exclusion of certain people, including atheists, agnostics, and/or LGBT people, from membership of some Scouting organisations ... "Duty to God" is a principle of Scouting worldwide, though it is applied differently among countries.[3][4] The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) takes a strong position, excluding atheists and agnostics,[5][6] while Girl Scouts of the USA takes a more neutral position. The United Kingdom Scout Association requires adult leaders to acknowledge a higher power, but does not necessarily exclude atheists from roles in Scouting, as long as the local Commissioner is satisfied that the applicant leader will support the values of Scouting and the investigation of faith by the young people in the movement. Scouts Canada defines Duty to God broadly in terms of "adherence to spiritual principles" and does not require members to be part of an organized religion, but does require that they have some form of "personal spirituality".[7] In other countries, especially in Europe, some Scouting organizations may be secularist or religiously neutral (such as Eclaireuses et Eclaireurs de France and Corpo Nazionale Giovani Esploratori ed Esploratrici Italiani).
The only mention of excluding people is "Boy Scouts of America (BSA) takes a strong position, excluding atheists and agnostics,[5][6]" - which is hardly detailed. It's a claim based on two footnotes. I daresay few leaders will take the trouble to read the footnotes.
Could we please mention individuals by name (or if there's a privacy issue in some other way) who have been excluded for being agnostic, i.e., for expressing their uncertainty about the existence of God? Also, is it also atheist boys who are excluded, or only atheist troop leaders or BSA officials? Please give details - especially if the intro says "detailed below". --Uncle Ed (talk) 14:21, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I started a draft at Talk:Boy Scouts of America membership controversies/Religion some time back. There are two youth-related incidents and one adult; obviously there must be more. It really needs sources that have examined the issue in detail. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 14:30, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "Scouting does not accept atheists and agnostics as members or adult volunteer leaders." That quote should be in the article, and we should also try to find out if any boy has ever been kicked out of a troop for revealing that he isn't sure whether God exists (Agnostic) or declaring he is quite sure there is no God (Atheist). --Uncle Ed (talk) 14:46, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

text: Sidebar response to Gadget850, I think that those two "youth" situations were actually because the parent wouldn't sign their application.North8000 (talk) 11:48, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Exclusion of the non-religious

message: Page 11 
World Organization of the Scout Movement – Triennial Report 1996-1999 Page 10 AN OVERVIEW OF THE TRIENNIUM, continued Scouts battle leprosy with WHO and AHM Child Protections A Memorandum of Understanding to implement the strategy for the elimination of leprosy as a public health problem was signed at the World Scout Bureau in July 1997 by three parties: the World Health Organization(Action Programme for the Elimination of Leprosy); the Munich based AHM Leprosy Relief Organization, and the World Organization of the Scout Movement. Partner organizations in ten countries, where leprosy is still prevalent, have been provided with material to implement this agreement: Bangladesh, Brazil, The Democratic Republic of Congo, India, Indonesia,Madagascar, Nepal, Philippines, Sudan and Tanzania. Scouting’s Involvement in the Elimination of Leprosy: Resource Material for National Scout Organizations has been prepared and circulated to associations concerned. The document highlights the educational dimension of this activity both for the Scouts and the communities involved.s In a message sent to all national Scout associations, the World Scout Committee expressed its concern that the Scout Movement - in every country- must actively work to protect all Scouting members, especially young people, from physical, sexual and emotional harm. All Scout organizations are expected to have policies and procedures which are intended to protect members by means of the recruitment and training of suitable leaders, and provisions for the removal of leaders found to be unsuitable.Responses to the World Committee message show that several national Scout associations have well developed protection programmes, and some of these are being used as models for adoption by other organizations and agencies.Some Scout associations indicated that they are presently reviewing their policies and procedures; unfortunately some Scout associations have not responded at all. It has been noted that some widely publicized cases of child abuse related to “scouting” were in groups calling themselves “scouts” but which are not members of the recognized national Scout association in their country; and there are also cases involving “former Scout leaders” whose offences had nothing to do with Scouting and who had been removed from Scouting - often many years ago - precisely because protection programmes were effective. The feedback is being reviewed to consider if more can be done at the world level to help national Scout organizations have effective protection programmes.Using the theme Scouts can help cure,Scouts in India and other countries are helping teach people how to recognize and test for early stages of leprosy.
:What is the intention of this text, who wrote it and where would it be added in later? I see no connection with Scouting controversy or conflict.DParlevliet (talk) 08:33, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  to be added in later 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061004124538/http://www.bsalegal.org/core-values-286.asp to http://www.bsalegal.org/core-values-286.asp
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thread_title:  External links modified