Talk:Crome Yellow

message: Please consider adding a link to Librivox's free, public domain recording of this book: http://librivox.org/crome-yellow-by-aldous-huxley/ Thank you --thistlechick 16:16, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Cromeyellow.jpg

message: I have just attempted to restore the reference to HH Asquith’s little cameo in “Crome Yellow”, only to have it deleted on the grounds – both erroneous – that it is “a libel” and that “it cannot be confirmed online”. And instructed to “discuss on the talk page”. So here goes.
Asquith's cameo in "Crome Yellow", and the sniggers at his expense which it caused, is touched on in one of his leading biographies (Stephen Koss - that's mentioned in Asquith's biography, in a post 1918 section which I wrote up in autumn 2016) and also in Paul Johnson's History Of the Modern World (1917-91) which I read about thirty years ago but don't immediately have to hand. The latter tome was where I first heard of it.
Asquith's behaviour around young women, particularly in his drunken later years - staring down cleavages, inability to keep his hands to himself - is perfectly well-known. His wife Margot had broken off conjugal relations on doctors' orders after a series of difficult pregnancies had almost killed her. His coterie of young women friends included people like Lady Diana Manners (later Cooper) - on the whole they seem to have treated him as an embarrassing old uncle whom they regarded with a certain amount of affection, whilst at the same time not wanting to be sat next to him.
Ann De Courcy is a reputable writer and her recent biography of Margot Asquith was well-received. It is therefore a “reliable source”. Nobody is under any obligation to provide an online source for other people’s convenience. You can buy a copy of the book on Amazon easily and cheaply enough if it bugs you that much, although annoyingly she doesn’t give exact citations to primary sources for her discussion of Asquith’s behaviour – she just says that the letters and diaries of people in his social circle (of which she lists several pages in her bibliography) are full of references to Asquith’s groping and ogling. Most of these are obviously hard to get hold of, so you have to rely on the author having done his or her research. The wartime diaries of Asquith’s daughter-in-law Cynthia apparently contain quite a few references, poorly inked out (Ie. still legible), to Asquith’s lechery.
Whether young women would put up with all this today is a different question, but this was a century ago. A generation ago, I was brought up to disapprove of old-fashioned men who claimed that “no” didn’t always mean “no”, but in the mores of a century or more ago a woman was often expected to feign reluctance and even “put up a fight”. Sometimes the fight was a sham, to comply with social norms, and sometimes the woman genuinely was unwilling and was fighting off an assault. In her memoirs through which I just had a flick, Lady Diana Cooper mentions several instances of having to fight off such assaults by various men in her bedroom (she fought one off by strangling the man for three minutes) and in theatre dressing rooms – even one by Ernest Bevin after WW2 when he was Foreign Secretary and her husband was Ambassador in Paris. Nobody is suggesting that Asquith ever went that far, or at any rate not this late in his life (although Lloyd George certainly did, well into old age). I merely mention all this to show that Asquith’s groping and ogling was less remarkable than it would be today. That said, Duff Cooper, Lady Diana’s future husband, found Asquith’s interest in his girlfriend extremely tiresome.
Ottoline Morrell's own relations with Asquith were ambivalent. He had made a clumsy, fumbling pass at her back in the 1890s (whilst “supervising her reading” as she was keen to educate herself) which had helped to bring on a nervous breakdown and a flight to Switzerland. However, she appears later to have forgiven him, and he was a welcome guest at her house in this era. She was displeased at Aldous Huxley's rudeness about him in “Crome Yellow”.
Of supporting relevance, Lytton Strachey makes a reference to Asquith making a beeline across the lawn to badger Dora Carrington at some party or other. It’s mentioned in some book or other about Ottoline Morrell. I noted down the quote and a page reference a few years ago but never got round to posting it in Asquith’s biog – if I can’t find it I’ll have to consult said book about Ottoline in the library when I am in a position to get back up to London this autumn.
But none of these excursions into social history matter very much. The bottom line is that “Mr Callamay” in the book, who has a “Roman profile” and with whom young women were reluctant to go on car journeys, is clearly supposed to be Asquith. Hs little cameo in the book caused him some embarrassment when it was published. All of that is confirmed by what Wikipedia calls “reliable sources”, ie. reputable books. Three of them in fact (De Courcy, Koss and Paul Johnson).Paulturtle (talk) 09:33, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I see from 's talk page that this same question was raised with him in 2015. I notice, too, that he has now conceded here that Mr Callamay's appearance in the novel is a cameo, not a "portrait". There are two main points at issue, however. The first is whether there are reliable references (two are needed where the matter is contentious) that state that Mr Callamay is meant to represent Asquith...since the article in question is about the novel, not Asquith himself. Secondly, is it important enough to add to the other instances already mentioned in the paragraph in question. WP is an encyclopaedia that gives a broad picture of the subjects covered, not a blog that lists every bit of salacious tittle-tattle about people whose relatives are still living. I am not impressed at all by the high-minded blather given in defence of the unnecessary intrusion of such detail. Sweetpool50 (talk) 10:53, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

text: I advise you to WP:AGF. All I see from you is a lot of special pleading and no evidence to support your argument that Callamay = Asquith, or even that such was the gossip. Perhaps we need to widen the discussion via the Novel Portal. Sweetpool50 (talk) 13:53, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

text: Try quoting word for word the relevant passages where it is said that contemporaries believed that Callamay depicted Asquith. All you have talked about so far are mention of Asquith's habits, not discussion of the novel. Sweetpool50 (talk) 22:17, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  A simple google for "asquith crome yellow" turned up, for me, an abundance of clear and reliable sourcing for this connection. For example, the Dictionary of Real People in Fiction or The Fateful Year: England in 1914, and p 129 of this article. It seems widely recognized by Asquith's contemporaries, and by literary critics and biographers today, that Callamy represents Asquith. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 21:14, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Famous Portrait of Asquith 

message: The Themes section contains details of encyclopedia value, but seems mis-titled.
 may the deleted details and citation about fasting girls  be added there? – Fayenatic London 10:55, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it stems from a narrative within the narrative and does not add to an understanding of the novel. It is therefore an irrelevant detail and WP:OFFTOPIC. Sweetpool50 (talk) 14:38, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Themes or details