Talk:Ligurian (ancient language)

message: Placing  a considerable quantity of useful discussion on Ligurian here, where it can be readilly found. It was squirrelled away on user talk pages.
--Nantonos 20:13, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If the published evidence indicates that Ligurian was more likely Indo-European rather than non-IE, then obviously the majority view gets more representation. On the other hand, since some scholars believe otherwise, then they must also be cited. Decius 23:18, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

text: In the meanwhile, I found an individual named Claudio R. Salvucci making this statement on this webpage: "The use of the term Ligurians is confusing, since it is used both for a Pre-Indo-European language whose chief evidence is place-names, as well as an Indo-European language (not Celtic or Italic) from names in an inscripton near Genoa. The language of the historical Ligurians was probably the second of those." Decius 00:12, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible scholarly input

message: :This all seems very strange to include in Wikipedia, even for a discussion page. Pasquale seem to disagree with just about everything written by established Celticists on Lepontic and makes some very strong statements about their scholarship. Archaeological evidence makes it quite clear that there were Celts in Northern Italy before the famous invasion after 400BC and no one (apart from Pasquale) who has written on the topic seems to doubt Lejeune's conclusions. All subsequent scholars (US, Irish, Welsh, German, French, Italian) have supported his argument that Uvamogozis derives from *upamo-ghostis and means '(having) supreme guests', i.e. it is a superlative bahuvrihi very similar to the Irish name Fergus (probably '(having) super guests'). The curators at the museum in Como where the Prestino inscription is housed have no doubt that Lepontic is Celtic either -- in fact it is 'Ligurian' itself which is the dubious and problematic language, not Lepontic.
::Well, Bmees, for one thing, I never said UVAMOKOZIS was not Celtic. In fact, I never doubted it was Celtic. You obviously misread what I wrote. For me, UVAMOKOZIS is undoubtedly Celtic. What is not sure is that UVAMOKOZIS is "Lepontic". It could be Cisalpine Gaulish, i.e. of the Gaulish tribe of the Insubres, who took over the area of Milan and surrounding plains, chasing the local tribe of the Lepontii up the mountain valleys of Ticino and Ossola. This inscription is written in a later variant of the Alphabet of Lugano that is quite different from the original one used in the older inscriptions from 700-400 BC, which are surely Lepontic. My contention is that Lepontic and Cisalpine Gaulish are different languages. By the way, Lejeune says the same thing, but the difficulty is in determining exactly which inscriptions belong to one and which to the other language, given how short some of them are. It's interesting that you cite Fergus as an example of *ghosti- in Celtic. In 1970, Lejeune wrote that the reason this inscription has to be assigned to Lepontic (rather than Gaulish) is that *ghosti- is nowhere else attested in Celtic, ergo it cannot be Celtic, ergo it must be Lepontic. And then he adds, ergo Lepontic is also Celtic, because of *p > 0 and because of *-st- to -ts- (or tau gallicum or whatever). It is precisely that syllogism that I have referred to as sleight-of-hand. As for me, I would simply say that this particular inscription is in Cisalpine Gaulish (Celtic), not in Lepontic, and that the affiliation of Lepontic remains in doubt. And, by the way, I never said I have conclusive evidence that Lepontic belongs with Ligurian (which was probably a non-Celtic Indo-European language). All I am trying to say is that the evidence is inconclusive one way or the other. Only by forcibly conflating Lepontic and Cisalpine Gaulish into one language (simply because they are written in closely related variants of the same alphabet, a principle nowhere else held as evidence in linguistics), can you then assign Lepontic to Celtic. I call that another sleight-of-hand.  Pasquale 23:08, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I should add, by the way, that the name Fergus is usually not derived from *ghosti- 'guest', but from Proto-Celtic *gustu- 'force', in other words, *Uφer-gustu- (cf. other personal names such as *Kuno-gustu-, *Oino-gustu-; see Proto-Celtic - English Glossary). So, the etymology offered by Bmees for Fergus is most probably incorrect, and Lejeune may still be correct that *ghosti- is nowhere else attested in Celtic. Nonetheless, his 1970 argument remains circular. Once again, it was precisely Lejeune's 1970 argument that (1) attributed the Prestino inscription to Lepontic rather than Cisalpine Gaulish simply because *ghosti- (in the proper name UVAMOKOZIS) is attested nowhere else in Celtic; then (2) assigned Lepontic to Celtic on the basis of *p > 0 and *-st- > -ts- (in the very same UVAMOKOZIS). However, Lejeune 1970 considered Lepontic a completely different Celtic language than Cisalpine Gaulish (as distant from Gaulish as, say, Celtiberian). My understanding is that, on that point, Lejeune's thinking has not changed. In other words, he would completely disagree with latter-day Celticists, such as Eska, who quite arbitrarily conflate Lepontic and Cisalpine Gaulish into one and the same language.   Pasquale 18:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment March 2006

message: The article right now is still very unbalanced giving us mostly Delamarre's view that Ligurian was a Celtic language. I haven't studied Ligurian much, nor do I have references on the Liguran corpus, but someone who does should add the counter-Celtic arguments into the article. Decius 14:27, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and if I come across contrary views I will add them; but yesterday the artice had little info and zero sources. I was about to add an unreferenced template, but then came across at least one referencable opinion, so added it. Which was better than what was before. --Nantonos 18:39, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I have some problems with Delamarre's statement. For one thing, both Geneva and Genoa assert that their name comes from the IE root *genu- that means "knee", not the one that means "cheek". Secondly, even if they do come from the "cheek" word (the "chin" meaning seems to be restricted to Germanic), what's the evidence this word was used in Celtic for the mouth of a river? In Brythonic, anyway, the word seems to be *abber-, as in Aberystwyth and Aberdeen.  In Old Irish gin "mouth" is used for a mountain pass, not a river mouth. Also, according to Germanic tribes and Marius, the Ambrones were a Germanic tribe, not a Celtic one. --Angr/ 17:44, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In the first century CE and earlier, 'German' was frequently used as a geographical label (people in the area bounded by the Rhine, the Elbe, the north sea and the Alps) without necessarily indicating a linguistic definition. But I will look for more info on the Ambrones. --Nantonos 18:39, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

text: According to Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities, 1898 (Ambrones entry available online at Perseus), the Ambrones were a Celtic tribe. Yet I know from handling Dardani and Scordisci articles that ancient writers often gave conflicting ethnic identifications of many of these tribes. Decius 18:44, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I looked up the quote from Plutarch in my own copy of Plutarch (Dryden translation), and there is no indication in Plutarch that the Ligurians and Ambrones began discoursing with each other at all, let alone in mutually intelligible tongues: rather, the Ambrones were shouting "Ambrones!" as a battle-cry; and the Ligurians, on hearing this term, found it to be identical to "an ancient name in their country", so the Ligurians, as they advanced to engage the Ambrones, also began to shout "Ambrones!". Both sides kept shouting this, enraging one another, till the Ligures finally fell upon them, joined by the Romans---and all of the Ambrones were slaughtered. There was no "chit-chat" going on. Decius 20:51, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Postscriptum, I found the Dryden translation of Plutarch's Caius Marius online:. If Dryden's translation is accurate, then Delamarre's interpretation is childish, unrealistic, and is not substantiated. Decius 21:59, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

text: And on top of all this, I don't think it is even known with any certainty whether the Ambrones were even Celts---but even if they were, the translation doesn't indicate that any actual discourse went on at all between the Ligures and Ambrones. Decius 22:13, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry, Decius, but I was just trying to inject a little humor into the story. That is why I prefaced my imaginary quote by "Like:" (a vulgarism meaning "as if"). I thought it was obvious. In any case, the Plutarch text you quote is pretty much what I remembered. I didn't say they spoke the same language. What I said is that they "discovered that they used the same self-designation "Ambrōnes", roughly meaning 'men', as a battle-cry." Well, more or less, in any case. Indeed, it is not known with certainty if the Ambrones were Celtic-speaking, Germanic-speaking, or neither. It is also not known if they were just another name for the Cimbri and Teutones, or a third tribe that had joined the Cimbri and Teutones in their peregrinations. Plutarch's text allows for the interpretation I put forth, namely that the term was a self-designation of the Cimbri/Teutones, but it does not require it.  Pasquale 22:38, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, I agree that Ambrones may well have meant "Men" or something similar. It baffles me how Delamarre was able to extrapolate such a scenario from Plutarch. In the meanwhile, I'm trying to find more references for the article. Decius 22:45, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Delamarre

message: Strabo is quoted as saying:
:but while these Ligurians belong to a different race (hetero-ethneis),
Wouldn't "people" be a lot better than "race" here?
:Yes, I agree. ---Decius 14:51, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation question 

message: I see a lot of material in the discussion and almost none in the article, and no line-item references in the article. The discussion is far larger than the article. We are hanging fire here. I thank you all for your inputs. Now it needs to be translated into referenced material in the article (this is the true translation problem). I remind you that the Indo-European/non-Indo-European question has by no means been settled, so we need to present both views in a balanced fashion. Accordingly I got us started with the organization. Dave's fourth law of movements: for every scholarly assertion there is an equal and opposite scholarly assertion. So, on this one I think we would do better to avoid the weasel language, "it is generally accepted." One man's generality is another man's peculiarity.Dave (talk) 13:19, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: References, references

message: I wish to bring to the attention of the specialist editors here that it might be of help in identifying the origins of a language of which we know little, as it is the case for  ancient Ligurian, to study the outcome of it as a Galloroman language. The peculiarities of Romance Ligurian are well known and might well be studied in their relationship with similar outcomes in other languages of the same family in order to draw inferences on the origin and position of ancient Ligurian among the Celtic languages.
The peculiarities of modern Ligurian that I find most intersdting in this respect are  phonetical, including accentuation and pitch.
It is a well known fact that modern Ligurian is both cognate and distinct in this respect with neighbouring Galloroman languages. See changes of b to g, f to sc, loss of final vowel versuso u, presence of original fricatives and liquids versus droppping.
The Galloroamance language that bears most similarities to modern Ligurian seems to be modern Galeg-Portuguese. My hypothesis is that ancient Ligurian should therefore be cognate to the language of the ancestors of the Galegs.Aldrasto (talk) 03:35, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Study of the modern romance language as testimony of relationship among substratum languages 

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thread_title: Move discussion in progress

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