Talk:Mexican Open (tennis)

message: :Image:Abierto Mexicano TELCEL logo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Abierto Mexicano TELCEL logo.jpg

message: There is a long, ongoing discussion at WP:Tennis about the tournament tables found in tennis articles on English-language Wikipedia (e.g., this type of table). The discussion is about whether the "official sponsored name" of a tournament - such as Internazionali BNL d'Italia - or another tournament name without the sponsor - such as Rome Masters - must be used in those articles. Please join the discussion here. Thanks.  Tennis expert (talk) 08:38, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for wider input on discussion at WikiProject Tennis 

message: To avoid ambiguity this tournament is known as the Acapulco Open precisely so it wouldn't be confused with the Monterrey Open or the other Mexican Open Golf Tournament. Supaman89 (talk) 22:07, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: For years and years this has been known as the "Mexican Open." AP News, Reuters News, ZeeNews India, ESPN, etc... Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:58, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: This should not have been moved by Supaman89 without bringing the tennis project aboard, as it was plain it would be contested. I moved it back. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:09, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Acapulco Open

message: No mention of the pear trophy?
Skaizun (talk) 10:26, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There is now. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:08, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trophy? 

message: I haven't seen any reports that this tennis event had beginnings prior to 1993. The event's own history starts there and even has a special heading of "30 Years" for it's history list of champions. Are there lists of winners of all the past events which have been called the Mexican Championships or Mexican Lawn Tennis Championships prior to 1993? Was it a minor league event in most years since the Open Era began? I know we had old carpet events in Mexico City called Mexico City WCT but that was a different beast. I couldn't find a link in the press at newspapers.com. I guess if we can find a couple sources that link the entire history back to 1907 it could be put in as a side note that says "Some sources have placed the tournament beginnings to 1907.... etc", but I don't think it should be in the infobox without substantial backing by sources. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:15, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes there are lists of previous winners, no it was not a minor league event it was the official championships of the Mexican Tennis Association previous mens winners included Vinnie Richards, Bill Johnston Rafael Osuna. I have found a lot of sources 1914 through to 1969. Elizabeth Ryan won the event  Molla Mallory played the event, Virginia Wade played the event in 1966 and 1967, Ann Haydon Jones played the event under the name Mexican Lawn Tennis Championships in Mexico City. In the early 1970s it was going by the name of the Mexican Fall Open. On reflection for now if at all I will draft a separate article as a precursor event. --Navops47 (talk) 06:37, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here is a newspaper link assume you have wikipedia library access? The Mexican Herald Newspaper Archives April 19, 1908 Page 4 that states the the first Lawn Tennis Championships of Mexico started in 1908 quite a thorough report, but my Wright and Distson (1909) book says 1907 could be a print error.--Navops47 (talk) 07:01, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I can see that, but when I had looked in the newspaper archives I did not see events for every year. I looked in the 1970s and 80s and only saw the Hayden Jones entry. What we may want to do, if you can source each entry, is create a new article through 1992 and link it to this one. Even the fact it was in the fall on grass makes me think the events are not really related. Heck we had the Mexican WCT from 1976-1982 in Mexico City that was probably the biggest event in the city. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:11, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The title may say 'Lawn' but it was mainly played on clay courts, with a couple of exceptions in the 1950s when it was played on hard courts.--Navops47 (talk) 11:38, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: And if check under "Mexican Fall Open: in newspapers.com it comes up with zero newspapers. Fyunck(click) (talk) 16:05, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I reverted the addition of the pre 1993 content as there was no clear indication from the sources that this should be regarded as one tournament. On the contrary, there are several sources which show that this tournament started in 1993. As Fyunck already mentioned, the tournament website is very clear in this regard, both in its fact sheet as well as the specific '30 years' section. The past champions list at the ATP tournament profile page also starts in 1993, not earlier. A tennis.com article mentions "Muster won the first four editions of the event in 1993, 1994, 1995 and 1996,...". Determining what constitutes a tournament, and which editions to include, can be surprisingly difficult. Even with available reliable sources it sometimes remains a judgment call but we need to be careful to not just add older events without it being clear that they are indeed related and should be regarded as part of a single distinct tournament. It seems in this case the best way to go would be to create a separate article for the precursor event.--Wolbo (talk) 17:00, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Note all comments: I have a paid subscription with the British Newspaper Archive if you do a random search on that site for Mexican Open, tennis then filter 1970s or 1980s it brings up summary results for a tournament of that name Eliot Teltscher was the No 7 seed in the 1978 edition https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1970-01-01/1979-12-31?basicsearch=mexican%20open%2c%20tennis&exactsearch=false&retrievecountrycounts=false so now have two Mexican Opens. the Mexican Championships (f.1908) that became the Mexican Open by circa 1972 to 1982, then this 1993 Mexican Open version 12 years after the other one ended. The point I'm making is the Nottingham Open was categorically stated as a tournament with no history prior to 1970, when in fact it was directly descended from the Nottinghamshire Championships (f.1886) per the full roll of honor I eventually found from the Tennis Club that staged it. So this current Mexican Open is not the official championships of the Mexican Tennis Association it is a ATP tournament brand name only correct?--Navops47 (talk) 17:39, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: We know well that many tennis tournaments have a convoluted history. As Wolbo said, if we can find some proof of a continuation, we make the best judgement call as possible. What's interesting is the date you have for the 1978 event with Teltscher.... January 31 in Mexico City. That is the exact same date as another tournament in Mexico City called Mexico City WCT, won by Raul Ramirez	over United States player Pat Du Pre. The ATP website also lists Teltscher as having played in that event. So what the British may have erroneously called the Mexican Open was in fact the Mexico City WCT, for which we already have an article. And that event was played indoors on carpet, so totally different. The old Mexican Championships may have died out when the Open Era started. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:10, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Tournament beginnings - 1993?