Talk:Common loon

message: Should we not be consistant at using either diver or loon throughout the article? Right now they are both used throughout.say1988 01:45, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
:I've removed the only superfluous loon. All the other are necessary, to give the NAm species and family names, or because they are part of local alterantive names. jimfbleak 05:34, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Consistency

message: # Per IOC name standardisation. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 03:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: There is no "In popular culture" section. This bird is central to the plot of the novel Great Northern? by Arthur Ransome (in which it is referred to throughout as Great Northern Diver); basically, has this bird been seen to nest in northern Scotland, or have they mistaken another species entirely? --Redrose64 (talk) 23:53, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This can be added to the Relationship with humans section for the time being. Good point though. Once there is a solid chunk of material, splitting out as a Cultural depictions subsection is prudent. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:53, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Added a paragraph. How's that? --Redrose64 (talk) 11:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That's great :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:09, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  In popular culture 

message: OK kids........I was looking at the common name changes from the last IOC post.  Since we standardize English names there I thought I would start a discussion on the name change before proposing a move.....so here goes.....
As we all know, Europe and Asia use Great Northern Diver for the common name of Gavia immer.  North America uses Common Loon.  The IOC used Great Northern Loon as a spirit of compromise as the name of the bird.  On the Jan 25, 2016 post, the IOC reverted to using North America's name of Common Loon stating the compromise name never received any traction.  So the two arguments as I see them are to move the name to Common Loon and to use our standard for English name convention, or to keep the name as Great northern loon, since it has been stable for a while, but we would be the only ones calling it that.....my vote is to switch to Common Loon, but I'm biased being American........Let's fire it up!......Pvmoutside (talk) 20:20, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Speaking as a Brit, I fear 'Great Northern Loon' was only ever an acceptable compromise to American eyes. It just made me think of a particularly irritating colleague who has a Yorkshire accent. Best to go with IOC. William Avery (talk) 22:42, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep. Common loon for all reasons above...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:54, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been a long-time advocate of GND on the basis of varieties of English, but I think to be consistent we need to go loony Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:15, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Great northern diver/Common loon fun

message: I have accepted your request to have this article copyedited. I will keep you informed on how the work is progressing.
David Thibault (talk) 22:18, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copy editing 

message: *In the first paragraph the phrase “to Denmark” was added. If this is okay, it should also be mentioned in the lead. Here are possible revisions (but only if you want Denmark mentioned):
:Lead: “…as well as Greenland, Iceland, and Denmark.”
:D/H: “…as well as in southern parts of Greenland, in Iceland and Denmark to the east,…”
:I have reversed the order of the countries (Iceland, then Denmark) so the order follows their appearance on the globe, travelling east. David Thibault (talk) 00:18, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Adityavagarwal (talk) 10:05, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Is Denmark really a nesting location? Because on the range map it is shown for wintering but not nesting. Can you provide a citation saying that they nest in Denmark. The confusion may have arisen because Greenland is still an autonomous possession of Denmark and Iceland used to be until about 1945. Dabbler (talk) 16:59, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, not even IUCN has it. Great catch! Removed it instead. Adityavagarwal (talk) 17:34, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good and thank you  for catching that! I made two minor edits for clarity to the two locations where "Denmark" was added. David Thibault (talk) 00:02, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Distribution and habitat

message: This section is excellent but could be improved by adding audio samples of the common loon's wail and hoot. David Thibault (talk) 00:49, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: So true, but I do not think we have wail and hoot calls as well. Adityavagarwal (talk) 04:07, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

text: That's okay! David Thibault (talk) 21:24, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Vocalization

message: :The following sentence is great, but it's unclear what the loon uses to impale the predator. The bill? I will leave it to you to add any necessary information.
:When a predator approaches (either the loon's nest or the loon itself), common loons sometimes attack the predator by rushing at it and attempting to impale it through the abdomen or the back of the head or neck. David Thibault (talk) 00:38, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, added it. The source says bill too. Adityavagarwal (talk) 04:07, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Great! David Thibault (talk) 21:25, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Nest predators and hazards

message: In the middle of the first paragraph there is a sentence that may need to be revised for clarity:
:In Europe it occurs in 20 IBAs, including in Ireland, Norway (Svalbard and mainland Norway), Iceland, Spain and in the United Kingdom.
:Possible revision (but only if the facts are true): "In Europe it appears in 20 Important Bird Areas (IBA), including Ireland, Norway (Svalbard and mainland Norway), Iceland, Spain, and in the United Kingdom." David Thibault (talk) 22:14, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Revised. Adityavagarwal (talk) 05:25, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Status and conservation

message: In the second paragraph there is a clause that I've edited for clarity, but I want to make sure I haven't inadvertently changed its meaning. Is it an Ojibwa story, or is it a story within an Ojibwe story? Please review the change:
:Original: These include a story of a loon which created the world in an Ojibwe story
:Revised: These include an Ojibwe story of a loon which created the world David Thibault (talk) 22:43, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you are right again.  Adityavagarwal (talk) 05:25, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: In popular culture

message: Reference number 28 appears to contain very limited information. Is it possible to add to it? David Thibault (talk) 00:55, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not able to find it. Adityavagarwal (talk) 05:55, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

text: Reference number 27 is used to cite "haunting", "beautiful", and "thrilling", but it doesn't mention "mystical" or "enchanting". As Reference 28 provides very limited information on the name of the source, I would recommend deleting it from the Reference section and removing the words "mystical" and "enchanting" from the text (unless another source can be found that mentions these two words in relation to a common loon's call). David Thibault (talk) 19:33, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed. Adityavagarwal (talk) 19:59, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

text: Looks good. David Thibault (talk) 20:10, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: References

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Adityavagarwal, since your last edit, I've done this. I've expanded heavy metals as suggested by Shyamal, replaced some refs and fixed some others, and generally copy-edited as I went.
*To me, it looks pretty comprehensive, can you think of anything that we still need to add or expand?
::Checking out now. Adityavagarwal (talk) 21:24, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Checking out now! Adityavagarwal (talk) 21:24, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah! Checking it now. :D Adityavagarwal (talk) 21:24, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

text: BE, AE? :P No idea what they are. As for consistency, do you recommend the UK or the US English? Adityavagarwal (talk) 21:24, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia policy WP:ENGVAR is that an article started in one variation of English, Commonwealth or US or some other, should normally remain in that language style/spelling etc. unless there is an overriding reason to change it and a consensus of editors agree. As I am bilingual in British and Canadian English I tend towards those variants, but I am not really the right person to fix an article as my own style is rather mixed up too!. Dabbler (talk) 23:30, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh wow, now that I look at BE and AE again, I know they mean British English and American English! :P I thought they were abbreviated for some esoteric things lol. Yeah, we use British English too. I think Jim would be able to say about what style we should keep. Adityavagarwal (talk) 23:44, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

text: Jim I apologize for the delay. I was sure to get the issues solved at Sunday, but I din't have internet access for the past two days. Got back just a few minutes ago, and am checking out the article right away. Adityavagarwal (talk) 21:24, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Adityavagarwal no problem, we are all volunteers with real lives. I spent yesterday on a bird-watching boat trip, so I've been off-duty too! I started this article, so I would have used BE, but the breeding range is almost entirely NAm, so there is a case for AE. I'm happy to go with your call on this. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:20, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be kept in Canadian English, which is almost identical to BE. This bird is featured on the Canadian dollar, which is colloquially called "the loonie". Canada is also is primary breeding range even though like many Canadians it does winter in the US. Dger (talk) 15:47, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Got it, Dger! Thanks a lot. :D Jim, I have double checked it now, and converted AEs to BEs. No issues on sources either. Also, there seems no prose issues either! I hope you had a great bird-watching boat trip! If you liked, should we nominate it right away? I would be addressing any FAC issues mentioned even while you were away! Adityavagarwal (talk) 04:27, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Adityavagarwal, Fine with me, as long as you're happy to do the heavy lifting at FAC until I return Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:37, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Jim Yeah buddy! Would be glad to heavy lift it. :D Nominating it! Adityavagarwal (talk) 07:40, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: To do

message: I don't see that we have a good article to point to, but fencing response is not the correct place to point. Is there another word besides "fencing" that could be used for this behavior that works better? Or can we add something about fencing analogs to the article about the sport? — jmcgnh(talk) (contribs) 10:39, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Resolved somewhat by unlinking. — jmcgnh(talk) (contribs) 14:22, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  link for "fencing" to "fencing response"? 

message: For common names such as "ember goose" this, this and immer - these sources might be useful. Shyamal (talk) 14:11, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Useful source 

message: Hi, 
I read with interest your material on the common loon, which I have studied for the past 26 years in northern Wisconsin. The statement contains lots of useful information about loons. I was a tad disappointed to see that corrections and changes that I made several years ago had been lost. I realize that dynamic editing is the essence of what you guys are doing, but it seems a shame, for example, that the article no longer includes the important fact that male loons choose the location for the nest, which I added some years ago. (This fact is supported unequivocally by a published scientific article.) Also I note that the article includes nothing about habitat selection in loons, despite the fact that they practice natal habitat imprinting. (That is, a young loon tends to settle on a territory very similar in size and pH to its natal lake.) These are only two among dozens of interesting and useful behavioral/ecological patterns related to habitat settlement, chick-rearing, territory defense, black fly parasitism, survival, and behavioral changes with age that we have published on since the beginning of the study. There are also a few misleading/erroneous statements in the article, such as one that states: "Pairs begin breeding at two years of age..." In fact, of the scores of young birds we have seen to breed for the first time, none has been younger than 4 years old. Perhaps that statement meant to point to the pair bond, not members of the pair, but even if so, that is also not true. We have observed dozens of newly-formed pairs to breed successfully in their first year together.  
Anyway, I just thought I might help update the page, make some corrections, and restore some information that seems to have been lost in editing, as these changes would truly make the page a current, useful source for info about common loons. Let me know if these updates and corrections are of interest. 
Here are some published articles that include some of the findings I have alluded to (and many others).
1.	Piper, W.H., Brunk, K.B. Jukkala, G. L., Andrews, E.A., Yund, S.R., and Gould, N.G. 2018. Aging male loons make a terminal investment in territory defense. Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology 72: 95-106. 
2.	Piper, W.H., Tischler, K.B., and Reinke, A. 2018. Common Loons respond adaptively to a black fly that reduces nesting success. Auk 135:788-797.
3.	Spool, J., Riters, L., and Piper, W.H. 2017. Investment in territorial defence relates to recent reproductive success in common loons (Gavia immer). Journal of Avian Biology. 48:1281-1286.
4.	Piper, W.H., Brunk, K. M., Meyer, M. W. and Flory, J. A. 2017. The long shadow of senescence: age impacts survival and territory defense in loons. Journal of Avian Biology 48:1062-1070. doi:10.1111/jav.01393
5.	Jukkala, G. and Piper, W. H. 2015.  Common loon parents defend chicks according to both value and vulnerability. Journal of Avian Biology 46: 1-8. 
6.	Piper, W. H., Mager, J. N., Walcott, C., Furey, L., Banfield, N., Reinke, A., Spilker, F. and Flory, J. A. 2015. Territory settlement in common loons: no footholds but age and assessment are important.  Animal Behaviour 104: 155-163.
7.	Piper, W. H., Palmer, M. W., Banfield, N., Meyer, M. W. 2013. Can settlement in natal-like habitat explain maladaptive habitat selection? Proc. Royal Soc. B. 280: 20130979. 
8.	Piper, W. H. Grear, J. S. and Meyer, M. W. 2012. Juvenile survival in common loons: Effects of natal lake size and pH. J. Avian Biol. 43: 280-288. 
9.	Piper, W. 2011.  Making habitat selection more “familiar”: a review. Behavioral Ecol. Sociobiol. 65:1329 1351. 
10.	Grear, J. S., Meyer, M. W., Cooley Jr., J. H., Kuhn, A., Piper, W. H., Mitro, M. G., Vogel, H. S., Taylor, K. M., Kenow, K. P., Craig, S. M., Nacci, D. E. 2009. Population growth and demography of common loons in the northern United States. Journal of Wildlife Management 73: 1108-1115.
11.	Piper, W. H., Walcott, C.  Mager, J. N. & Spilker, F.  2008. Fatal battles in common loons: a preliminary analysis. Animal Behaviour 75: 1109-1115.
12.	Piper, W. H., Walcott, C.  Mager, J. N. & Spilker, F.  2008. Nestsite selection by male loons leads to sex biased site familiarity. Journal of Animal Ecology 77: 205-210.  
Wpiperloon (talk) 22:16, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes they certainly are of value. If you want to get stuck into it, I am a bit busy but I am sure a few of us bird editors () will keep an eye and assist with formatting references etc.  Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:51, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  possible improvements and updates to common loon page