Talk:Alternative hip hop

message: Cypress hill is definetley not alternative rap purely because of the fact that they have a lot of gangsta rap influence with songs like Kill A Man, alternative rap in a sense is a less mainstream version of pop rap with its very soft sound and clean lyrics, artist lile Lupe Fiasco is a pretty good example of alternative rap and Kanye West was alternative rap until the album Graduation which made him a pop rapper because of mainstream influence on his music. Rappers like Nas and Busta rhymes are definetley not alternative rap because of their hardcore influences even if Nas does have a poetic rap delivery but is still mostly a Mofasio Rap artist with aggressive lyrics, Busta Rhymes' delivery is not soft or poetic enough to be alternative rap.Xx1994xx (talk)
Sounds to me like you made this definition up yourself with your own arbitrary/narrow rules and regulations that no one knows of but you. I was there when Cypress Hill came out in ’91. I was there when Nas and LONS came out…You sir, have no clue what you are talking about.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.66.106.71 (talk) 16:41, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Alternative Rap

message: Isn't the same thing? Can't we group them all in one catergories?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.232.119.243 (talk) 23:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative vs. Conscious

message: Alternative hip hop is only a subgenre of hip hop music. Underground hip hop is a subculture of hip hop, but is also commonly used to refer a category of hip hop encompassing unsigned/independent/local hip hop artists.
Here is my proposal to settle this. If most agree with me then let's reorganise into two articles as follows...
===Definition of Alternative hip hop===
Alternative hip hop is a genre of hip hop that differs from the mainstream. Mainstream rap is commonly generalised as superficial and materialistic. Alternative hip hop artists strive to create music with artistic merit. Lyrical topics are broad and often positive.
====Artists====
*Freestyle Fellowship
*Abstract Rude
*Aceyalone
*De La Soul
*Dr. Octagon
*Common
*The Roots
*Kanye West (one might say he defected from alternative to mainstream, another might say he blurred the line between the two by becoming a popular alternative artist)
*MF Doom
*Talib Kweli
*Mos Def
*Fort Minor (similar case to Kanye West)
**I completley agree with this list and should be added to the article.Xx1994xx (talk)  —Preceding undated comment was added at 01:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative vs. Underground: Proposal 

message: Alternative hip hop is a genre of hip hop that differs from the mainstream. Mainstream rap is commonly generalised as superficial and materialistic. Alternative hip hop artists strive to create music with artistic merit. Lyrical topics are broad and often positive.
====Artists====
*Freestyle Fellowship
*Abstract Rude
*Aceyalone
*De La Soul
*Dr. Octagon
*Common
*The Roots
*Kanye West (one might say he defected from alternative to mainstream, another might say he blurred the line between the two by becoming a popular alternative artist)
*MF Doom
*Talib Kweli
*Mos Def
*Fort Minor (similar case to Kanye West)
**I completley agree with this list and should be added to the article.Xx1994xx (talk)  —Preceding undated comment was added at 01:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition of Alternative hip hop

message: *Freestyle Fellowship
*Abstract Rude
*Aceyalone
*De La Soul
*Dr. Octagon
*Common
*The Roots
*Kanye West (one might say he defected from alternative to mainstream, another might say he blurred the line between the two by becoming a popular alternative artist)
*MF Doom
*Talib Kweli
*Mos Def
*Fort Minor (similar case to Kanye West)
**I completley agree with this list and should be added to the article.Xx1994xx (talk)  —Preceding undated comment was added at 01:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Artists

message: Underground hip hop is a subculture of hip hop. To most people, underground means unsigned or independent of the mainstream. This definition refers not only to music, but also ideals, beliefs and political views.
Underground hip hop is also used to describe a genre that usually includes any unsigned/independent hip hop artists. These artists usually fit into the alternative hip hop genre, but can also be nerdcore or emo rap, among others.
It should also be noted that Underground hip hop as a genre is more often applied to west coast Alternative hip hop artists than east coast Alternative hip hop artists.
====Cultural Elements====
Although underground hip hop is part of hip hop culture, there are some defining elements, including:
*"Backpacker" clothing style, as one example
*Crossover with metal/emo/punk culture
*Political views - often include anti-Bush sentiment, as well as hippie and environmentalist views
Entertheinferno 05:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition of Underground hip hop

message: Although underground hip hop is part of hip hop culture, there are some defining elements, including:
*"Backpacker" clothing style, as one example
*Crossover with metal/emo/punk culture
*Political views - often include anti-Bush sentiment, as well as hippie and environmentalist views
Entertheinferno 05:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cultural Elements

message: This whole article on Alternative Hip Hop is completely misleading and disrespectful to real Hip Hop music. The Golden Era groups that are listed in this article are Hip Hop artists, not "Alternative" Hip Hop artists.  This is a very serious mistake to mislabel them.  It discredits the whole Hip Hop movement and culture. Most of the so called "mainstream" Hip Hop that is used to distinguish a difference from so called "Alternative" Hip Hop in this article, is actually Rap music, but some of it is simply Hip Hop music as well.  This is not my opinion.  This is fact and can be backed up with undisputed truth.  One simple point is that none of the artists listed in this article have ever... EVER... (one more time)... EVER... referred to their music as Alternative Hip Hop.  Alternative hip Hop is a label that started being used by journalists and business people outside of the Hip Hop culture, to describe "non-offensive" Hip Hop groups around the same time those Hip Hop groups started doing large tours with Alternative Rock groups in the early to mid 90's.  
You see all of the artists in this article are from the same genre (not a sub-genre) as KRS-One, Big Daddy Kane, Rakim, Public Enemy, Gang Starr, Special Ed, Nas, Blackmoon, Wu-Tang... It's called Hip Hop music.  It should have "music" at the end because it is not the same thing as Hip Hop.  hip Hop is the culture that incorporates more then just the music.
Because of articles like this, most people don't even know what Hip Hop music is... To explain why this is not a separate sub-genre let me explain something.  As I already said, Hip Hop music is not the same as saying Hip Hop.  Hip Hop is the culture and is comprised of five elements.  Hip  Hop music is made by a DJ and MC.  It is centered around finding breaks or samples in records in which the MC rocks rhymes that promote love, peace, unity and having fun.  It encourages originality, skill, wit, and expression... The Universal Zulu Nation created this movement called Hip Hop and defines it.... They also backed and raised most of the groups on this list that are mistakenly being mislabeled as not the epitome of Hip Hop music.  
One of the main things that puts the era this article refers to apart from other eras in Hip Hop is that technology advanced around 1988 and all of a sudden we could sample a lot more from other recordings (vinyl). All of a sudden very complex productions incorporated sounds from lots of records instead of previous eras when only a drum machine, a cut, and a short sample on a SP was possible.  The other thing that happened in this era was Yo MTV Raps.  It brought Hip Hop music to everyones home across the US and beyond. Neither of those factors created a new sub genre.
I will talk to my fellow ahki (brothers) in the Universal Zulu Nation about this article.  I believe it is time for the mislabeling to stop.  It's really out of hand.  Big business has come in and decided to name what it wants to as Hip Hop music and in turn "Alternative".  This article stands right behind it as if it has some kind of legitimacy, but EVERYBODY who is a Hip Hop head knows that these groups are NOT "Alternative" Hip Hop artists, they make Hip Hop music. 
Simply stated, the "Alternative" Hip Hop referred to in this article is not it's own sub-genre.  It is real Hip Hop music being mislabeled (period).
Tdcamp (talk) 09:08, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should use the talk page for new artists you want to add -- or require citation.  will.i.am and fergie hardly qualify as alternative hip hop... --Junius49 (talk) 22:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  So Called "Alternative" Hip Hop 

message: I might start a new page for underground rap. It will be a separate page from th alternative page, since underground rap and alternative rap are two separate things. I'm not really willing to write out ome huge article, so hopefully othe people will be willing to add to the page if I do make it. Also, the current list of underground rappers needs to be updated.
On top of that, I strongly disagree wih the opening paragraph of this current article but I can't edit it
Any thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fernoe (talk • contribs).
:You can edit the first paragraph by clicking the edit tab.--Urthogie 10:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A new page for Underground 

message: Underground is strictly a denotation by fans on artists of their choosing. Its meaning and the artists it pertains to are usually a personal and individual viewpoint that differs widely. Calling a rapper underground is like calling an album a classic, there are virtually no solidly established criteria. As such, I believe only a section relating this fact is necessary as a description of "underground" and "mainstream" (something I had done in the Hip hop music article..) but anyway, yes. PCP MC 03:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The term "underground" is heavily based on opinion --Jaysscholar 21:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: the the Hip-Hop project need to come up with a specific definition and classification for "underground", "mainstream", and "alternative". --Jaysscholar 21:57, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Any hip hop that does not have major label distribution, and is not on pop radio charts is underground.  That's it.24.148.87.42 (talk) 15:37, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Culture is a cloud.  Description are tools.  They are focal points for talking about a cultural cloud.24.148.87.42 (talk) 15:37, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Another way to look at genre is it use of delineation as a territorial power dynamic. This is especially important in the market space where artists and economic interests protect financial territory by playing cultural gatekeeper. 24.148.87.42 (talk) 15:37, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

text: In general, if music has rap on it, it's Hip Hop.  According to Ed Love on Yo! MTV Raps in response to the genre Hip House. 24.148.87.42 (talk) 15:37, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Underground is not a clearly defined genre

message: What about Anticon? I hope none of you object Anticon is kind of alternative hip-hop. Should we write something about?
Sthow 17:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anticon and Atmosphere are definitely notable in alternative hip hop. Entertheinferno 07:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Alternative hip hop doesn't seem like a fitting description for Spearhead. Entertheinferno 07:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Why not read the article and find a good place to mention the artist you think is notable? Anyone can edit this article... it needs a lot of help anyway :) Entertheinferno 07:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Notable Artists Not Mentioned

message: Underground hip hop is now its own page which succinctly explains that it refers to both Alternative hip hop and Indie hip hop and the difference between them.
However, is anyone ever going to clean up this page?  I would prefer not to be the one who does it.  This is the current opening sentence:
Alternative hip hop or Underground hip hop is defined as a culture that stems from a distinct musical genre, rather than just the musical genre itself.
Seriously, WTF?  Is this supposed to say something like "...is a culture that stems from a sub-genre of hip hop?"  Neither the current sentence nor my translation cuts it as an opener.
The opening paragraph is also a ass-whopping 13 lines of text long. ◄HouseOfScandal►13:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alternative/Indie/Underground

message: Preferences aside, since I bitched about the bad state of the article, and since 4 days passed without comment from anyone else, I felt obligated to fix it.  I just completed a major revision of the first section of this article; it's the most important part and was the part most sorely in need of clarity.  The chronology of alternative hip hop is better off; I won't revise that soon or possibly at all.
◄HouseOfScandal► 15:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for stepping up and revising the opener. I felt that your definition needed revision, so I revised it further. The defining point is that alternative hip hop is artistically different from the mainstream, as you said. I removed the contrast to gangsta rap and pop rap, as they do not define what is mainstream. Also, there are many alternative hip hop artists that do not have a "positive tone" so I removed that statement. Lastly, I removed your definition of underground hip hop, as there is already a specific article for that subject. Instead, I made reference to underground hip hop and showed how it is related to alternative hip hop. Entertheinferno 09:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Revision

message: Minibot said something I agree with earlier... both "Underground" and "Conscious" are terms I've heard applied to this brand of Hip-Hop, but "Alternative" is a recently manufactured term which I've never heard anyone use in real life, it's only become a popular 'sub-genre' on these mass media sites. Besides this artificial division being detrimental to the culture, I think that more importantly it's inaccurate, and is a revision of Hip-Hop history from a Rock-centric standpoint. In other words, past artists and albums are being placed into a category that was created by websites like AMG because they figured "Hey, Alternative Rock is a defined genre, so it'd be useful to have an Alternative Rap category as well." I don't deny that it's a convenient way to define a roughly definable piece of Hip-Hop, but the way it's presented on this page and the term used just aren't historically accurate.
For example, De La Soul, supposedly the initial creators/popularizers of Alternative Hip-Hop, soon after releasing their landmark debut, toured extensively in '89-'90 with such mainstream icons as LL Cool J, Too Short, Slick Rick, and even NWA (poster). In the early '90s, Jazz influences were extremely popular throughout all of the East Coast rap scene, including undeniably gangsta groups such as Onyx, Black Moon, and early Mobb Deep, far from just groups like Tribe and Digable Planets. Even someone like Alternative hallmark Common had a start as a full-fledged gangsta rapper, as anyone who's heard his debut Can I Borrow A Dollar album can tell. Finally, where would you place a group like the Wu-Tang Clan, a very street-based group which gradually became accepted into the underground community?
This said, I think one of the following actions should be taken to improve the article:
* This article not only merged with the Underground Hip Hop one, but edited to reflect the somewhat different meaning that Underground has from Alternative, or...
* A "Criticisms" section placed in the Alternative Hip Hop article, summarizing the main disagreements that myself and other people have with the very existence of an 'Alternative Hip Hop' sub-genre.
I personally think the second choice would be the best course of action, and an acceptable compromise between the two camps arguing here. --IRua 22:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand your emphasis on the need to cite criticism, except that this article in general has no citations supporting it either. In fact, the lack of documents even acknowledging the "Alternative Hip Hop" sub-genre, one way or the other, seem to me to be more proof of its lack of real existence. --IRua 20:44, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Isn't rewriting of history a bad thing?

message: No merge.  The intro sections at the start of this article and at underground hip hop are useful definitions that follow the way hip hop music is discussed by contemporary critics.  Where this article falls apart, I think, is in its attempt to present a coherent chronology.  A criticism section in an article is never for editor criticisms; that's what a talk page is for.  When one sees a criticism section in an article is to show that published sources have said.  The introduction of some citable "so and so says alternative hip hop isn't a proper term because..." would be an okay addition.   --House of Scandal 06:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand your emphasis on the need to cite criticism, except that this article in general has no citations supporting it either. In fact, the lack of documents even acknowledging the "Alternative Hip Hop" sub-genre, one way or the other, seem to me to be more proof of its lack of real existence. --IRua 20:44, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Opinion

message: People who write this page, or have allowed it to stay as it is really need to read Wikipedia:No original research.  This is blatant original research:
:Note that alternativeness should not be confused with originality.  An artist might produce music that is highly original within criteria that mark it as mainstream hip hop.  Likewise, an artist might produce alternative hip hop that lacks originality and is derivative of other alternative hip hop material.
:Hip hop is a diverse musical form that continually absorbs new influences from jazz, rock, R&B and other musical styles; many artistic takes on hip hop seen as alternative when they were made now fall well-within the corpus of the mainstream.
:Loops sampled from a wide-range of musical genres have always been a part of hip hop, as have turntablism, spoken word, beatboxing, live instruments and the incorporation of visual elements such as breakdancing and visual art like graffiti.  While these elements are often touted as hallmarks of alternative hip hop, it is only when they are used in innovative ways do they become indicative of it.
:Despite a preponderance of lyrics in mainstream hip hop that lauds material wealth, hooking up, lawlessness and bravado, mainstream hip hop has always dealt with a wide range of subject matter.  From its inception, hip hop has included material with a social consciousness, ranging from songs expressing political outrage to those that offer parables from which listeners might gain insight.
:As such, although much music is purported to be alternative hip hop based upon its "positive message", such a designation is false.  Very little music can be identified as alternative hip hop on the basis of lyrical subject matter alone.  Nerdster rap is one of few examples.
This is the opinion of Wikipedia editors.  That's not what Wikipedia is for.  The purpose of Wikipedia is to cite sources and tell what people say in the world.  This means you can't give your opinion about how alternative hip hop is positive.  You can, however, quote a reliable source saying that.  You can't give your opinion about how gangsta rap is negative.  You can, however, quote a reliable source saying that.
I see there's a lot of arguments on this talk page about defining everything.  Sometimes, the very phrase itself is a definition.  Take for example "underground hip hop".  That's hip hop that's not on a major, mainstream record label, or not on a record label at all.  Alternative is a vague term.  But you ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DEFINE IT.  It's against Wikipedia:No original research.  Thanks, --Urthogie 01:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  You aren't allowed to define anything at Wikipedia.  You have to cite sources. 

message: "Alternative hip hop" doesn't actually refer to anything.  Its a term used by music journalists who don't offer any concrete definition whatsoever. The entire history section and the definition were nothing but original research.  It is original research to say someone is part of a genre that isn't defined.  And it is original research to define that genre without using (several) reliable sources.  There are no reliable sources that define this genre, so how can it be anything other than original research?  I've basically blanked the content until this issue is resolved.  I don't think this issue will be resolved, because I don't think the article is capable of anything but original research.  Before reverting me, please reply to these points.  Specifically: How can we write an article on a term that is never defined anywhere, and used differently by various journalists without writing original research?--Urthogie 03:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  entire article is original research 

message: Agreed, Hip-Hop is not the same as Rap, mainstream or otherwise, Hip-Hop is the genre-similar alternative to Rap.
Like Jazz/Blues or Rock/Metal or Country/Western. Similar, but different. Many artists blend genres, but they're not synonymous.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.117.229.195 (talk) 08:13, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  This Article Is a Joke 

message: Who deleted all of the stuff and put this biased Rodrick information?/
*Wikipedia editors did, enforcing our policy against unverifiable material and original research.  The definition by Roderick is sourced, and the article is a stub.  If you have sources for other definitions of what alternative hip-hop comprises or for other content to add to the article, now is the time to cite them, so that the article can be written properly, from sources.  We are serious about sources.  Uncle G 23:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: you can add it, yes.--Urthogie 00:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but you can't do that just because you found it offensive and wrong.  Please review Wikipedia: Policies]].  You've also commited a copyright violation, by the way.  I'm reverting you.  Please make an effort at integrating the sources if you want both there.--Urthogie 21:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I didn't say you could copy it, I said you could use it or add it.  Different things completely.  one violates IP law, the other doesn't.  By the way, allmusic guide is opinionated.  All music genre definitions are opinions.  You have mainstream ones and non-mainstream ones.  That's the main difference.  Feel free to add allmusic.com as a source per wikipedia policies.  I suggest you readup on guidelines and policies for wikipedia so that you can avoid problems such as this in the future, --Urthogie 23:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

text: You can add any other opinion to counterbalance it if you like, it just needs to be a mainstream source of opinion.  The article itself isn't spinned: we neutrally present various opinions.  Feel free to add some!  See Wikipedia:Attribution for what sources you can use that are considered reliable.--Urthogie 23:27, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

text: See Wikipedia:Copyright violations for the policy regarding copyright violations.  For how to properly cite the source you are using, see Wikipedia:Citing sources.--Urthogie 00:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

text: You've already spent enough time complaining at this talk page that you could have read and understood the policy pages 3 times over by now.  If you've read them in full and don't understand a certain part of them, please tell me which part and I'll explain it.--Urthogie 00:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I never added the book to this article, so any argument that it's my view is bullshit.  In fact, I think the quote is untrue.  But I actually understand wikipedia policies, and can actually see past my own opinions when I edit.  If you want your quote back do something quite simple: re-add it.  Just don't remove the current source.--Urthogie 05:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Haven't you ever heard of Google?  It does wonders.--Urthogie 06:38, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Dude, I don't mean to be rude but it's so damn easy to find the amazon link from google.  I mean, you request policy pages to be read to you because they're "too complex", you are incapable of googling a book.  Whatever... Here's a link:--Urthogie 07:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Curefreak, please remember to sign when adding responses (just place four ~ signs at the end of your added text). --IRua 14:21, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WTF happened to the article? 

message: The current article ends with the words "...giving as an example the "Smokin' Grooves Tour" of 1996 (featuring Cypress Hill, A Tribe Called Quest, The Fugees, Nas, Ziggy Marley, and Busta Rhymes — all of whom, with the exception of reggae singer Marley, are hip-hop performers who "don't fit the mold of gangsta rap")." This is a very inaccurate example, as the only people on that list classifiable as Alternative Hip-Hop would be The Fugees and A Tribe Called Quest. Busta Rhymes and Cypress Hill are especially in no way Alternative, Nas has used many elements of Gangsta Rap throughout his career, and as the article mentions, Ziggy Marley is pure reggae. An accuracy of "2 out of 6" does not make it a good example, so if no one has any objections, I'll remove that part. --IRua 14:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Smokin' Grooves Tour" example inaccuracies 

message: Okay, right now this article seems very POV. The majority of the article is a quotation criticizing the genre. No timeline is given, no notable artists are listed... It's unencyclopædic and really just uninformative as it is.
Given the lengthy discussion here, I would think that someone more knowledgeable than myself would take an interest in this article's upkeep?
Ipsenaut 03:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: This article needs work.

message: ::"Hip hop artists who market their music toward non-urban audiences are often labeled "emo rap" "
which hiphop artists don't specifically market their music towards non-urban audiences (and what does this mean?)? the kyle myhre article is discussing "emo rap," a concept that the author calls "a bullshit term hyped up by the music industry to market white emcees to white hipsters."
in that particular quote, we see that "emo rap" is a term hyped up by the "MUSIC INDUSTRY" to "MARKET WHITE EMCEES." this does not qualify the assertion that "hip hop artists who market their music towards non-urban audienes are often labeled 'emo rap'." advancing this further, a hiphop artist doesn't market their music, their record label markets their music. when a hiphop artist markets their own music, this is almost always a diy tactic (like selling cds out of a car), and the customer base for such a campaign varies from rural towns to the suburbs to the inner-city. artists that have done this include ludacris, and i would like any editor to cite anywhere that ludacris, a favorite of both suburban and urban audiences, is an "emo rap" artist. this assertion is ludicrous and the sentence is hopelessly inaccurate.
Fiftwekid 04:49, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It says some, not all artists.--Urthogie 19:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

text: "non-urban"? as in farmers? --Krsont 11:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: as in what morons in 2007 used as a euphemism for negroes--Hehpillt28 (talk) 08:36, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  emo-rap POV 

message: What the hell happened to this page?? it was so comprehensive before? why has it been stripped and killed... http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alternative_hip_hop&diff=23331795&oldid=22916411 these were good days —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ppk812 (talk • contribs).
:That version wasn't sourced and was original research, not encyclopedic.--Urthogie 19:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is this page so short 

message: With all this discussion why does this article still suck?
--70.23.236.88 13:58, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Gargage

message: I really feel Outkast should have some kind of mention in this article, because, according to this definition:
Alternative Rap refers to Hip-Hop groups that refuse to conform to any of the traditional stereotypes of rap, such as gangsta, funk, bass, hardcore, and party rap. Instead, they blur genres, drawing equally from funk and pop/rock, as well as jazz, soul and reggae. [1]
If they weren't already alternative hip-hop by the release of Stankonia, then they certainly should be considered alternative hip-hop after their last couple releases (Speakerboxxx/The Love Below and the Idlewild soundtrack), which deviate greatly from any specific genre of hip-hop.
This, combined with the group's accomplished status, warrants a mention in this article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.16.238.92 (talk) 20:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's exactly what I thought when I read the article..."no Outkast?!? --Do you know me?...then SHUT UP!!! Sarcasm is beauty 01:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  OUTKAST 

message: An alternative hip-hop article with no mention of Stones Throw?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.231.181.47 (talk) 20:45, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stone's Throw Records 

message: This article doesn't make sense and is very misleading.
It claims that an alternative rapper is one who doesn't concentrate on the mainstream rap themes.
This doesn't make sense because I hear many of the rappers listed in this article as 'alternative' rapping about the same things that mainstream rappers do. Therefore the 'differing themes' theory doesn't hold up at all.
So after concluding that, I'm left with one big question...What the hell IS the difference between these so called 'alternative' rappers and the 'mainstream' ones?
The only possible answer is that the 'mainstream' rappers are much more popular with the teenage MTV crowd.
Therefore, the only difference is that mainstream rappers are in fact pop artists.
This highlights the need for a Pop Rap article which should handle all the pop rappers so that the real 'regular' rap artists like a lot of the ones listed in this article can return to the correct article that is [Hip Hop(music)].
Either way, anyone reading this, just know that many of the rappers listed in this article are in fact NOT alternative rappers, no matter what wikipedia tells you. Rest assured the local record store clerk WILL look at you funny if you ask for the alternative hiphop section. And if they actually have one, be prepared for some pretty weird stuff, cause that's what alternative hiphop actually is...really weird, usually psycho themed rap, but you'd never know that reading this article.
According to this article alternative is anything that isn't cars women or bling, but it's actually the other way around, cars money and bling is pop, everything else is hiphop.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.104.77.131 (talk) 07:02, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Is Being Used For Wrong Purpose 

message: As it is written now this article reads more like a magazine essay on a music genre, Pretty much the entire thing needs a rewrite. Ridernyc (talk) 04:40, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Essay

message: I propose we merge Conscious hip hop into Alternative hip hop. Much of that article could easily be merged into this article, and there's very little difference--if any--between "conscious" and "alternative". Luksuh (talk) 04:17, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: So are Grand Master Flash and The Furious Five “Alternative Hip Hop”? How about Cold Crush Bros, Afrika Bambaata, Treacherous Three, or any of the other pioneers? How do you distinguish what is “alternative” and what isn’t? Do any of the artists labeled “alternative” by this atrocious article embrace that term? As somewhat of an amateur Hip Hop historian, I find this entry to actually be offensive and ignorant.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.66.106.71 (talk) 16:31, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is a manufactured genre 

message: How can you have a section on the "decline" of alternative hip hop due to gangsta rap, when the biggest artists of the genre were most popular around the same time as their gangsta rap counterparts? In reality they both peaked at around the same time.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.218.106.158 (talk) 21:37, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timeline makes no sense 

message: I agree with others that this article is very rock-centric, and I feel that somewhere this needs to be said. 
This is a problem with Hip Hop on Wikipedia and within mainstream media in general. People and the media and rewriting the culture to fit in with rock norms, and they're ignoring the actual culture, customs and language. Alternative Hip Hop is a phrase created by the rock press, it has nothing to do with Hip Hop. MarshallMolasses (talk) 02:08, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rock-centric view of Hip Hop 

message: This page is absolutely ridiculous, and I have to agree with the others who say it is insulting to real hip hop fans and artists.  Underground hip hop is not alternative hip hop.  This is not Rock n Roll.  Underground IS hip hop.  That's where it started, and where it will always exist the strongest.
De La Soul is alternative hip hop?  Then so is Grandmaster Flash.  No.  That's what hip hop IS.24rhhtr7 (talk) 08:10, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  This Is Exactly Why Suburban Kids Shouldn't Be Trying To Be The Authority On Hip Hop Or Urban Culture In General 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This term "Alternative Hip Hop" is not a definable genre. No artists from the 80's or 90's ever used this term to describe themselves. The article fails to present a coherent definition of "Alternative Hip Hop". Is Cypress Hill "Alternative Hip Hop"? What about Wu-Tang? How about Ice-T? Schooly D? Audio 2? Grandmaster Flash and The Furious Five? Cold Crush Brothers? Kurtis Blow? This term is fabricated by internet dorks that want to put things into a box. It is not an organic or commonly used term. Delete this embarrassing article!!!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.210.25.130 (talk) 16:06, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why does this horrendous article still exist? 

message: Hey, 
I’m just here to say that I think experimental hip hop should probably have its own page by now because it makes the whole “alt rap” thing a lot more confusing to write about especially when there’s seemingly new subgenres of rap every week or so. 
Just wanted to put in my two cents on this, but seriously we should make a new page for this.  PapaBandit (talk) 18:26, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Experimental hip hop should probably have its own page 

message: I’ve always considered “alternative rap” as being its whole own genre, outside of the “experimental rap” label. For example, you have rappers like Kendrick Lamar or Kid Cudi with their rap type as being labeled as “alternative rap.” But that can be pretty confusing considering that much more clearly experimental type rap artists like Death Grips lack that similarity with the two rappers I mentioned earlier.
Basically, if we’re even going to have a page talking about alternative rap, I suggest that “experimental rap” should either not be mentioned in this page, or just have its own individual page. 2600:1010:B19F:D3D8:E9A9:A39E:62EE:FE3D (talk) 01:06, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: A proposal such as yours should be based on published sources and how they treat the topic. You did not mention any published sources, so there's no leverage in your suggestion. Nothing will change here unless you talk about how this or that musicologist treats the topic. Binksternet (talk) 03:04, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative vs. experimental 

message: — Assignment last updated by KING162 (talk) 16:32, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Hip Hop 50