Talk:Roza Bal

message: Dan Brown’s highly popular Da Vinci Code has revived a tidal wave of questions about traditional religious beliefs. While the questions may encompass other religions as well, the precursor to the questions raised by Dan Brown in his book came several years ago from a German theologian, Holger Kersten.
Kersten ‘s amazing document “Jesus Lived In India—his unknown life before and after the crucifixion” has the potential to turn traditional Christian beliefs on their heads in a manner quite different from Dan Brown’s version.
It may also give heart to Indologists, with its premises that Jesus Christ not only learnt his early philosophy from Oriental Masters, but that he died at a ripe old age, a much venerated Bodhisattva in Kashmir where he lies buried; and that belief in reincarnation is implicit in his teachings.
Kersten traveled to all the places connected to the life and times of Jesus Christ and produced his book after five years of painstaking and intensive research. He reasons that the Gospels offer very little detail of the philosophy of the man credited with founding one of the major religions of the world.
The Gospels, Keratin reasons, give very little information on the lives and times of Jesus Christ, apart from the meager description of his birth, his first appearance at the Temple at thirteen, and finally his barely three years of preaching before his crucifixion. Even these three years, in the four gospels do not offer much detail about the philosophy of the man who is credited with founding one of the major religions of the world.
Even the account of the Sermon on the Mount is scanty, to say the least. Nor do the gospels provide anything more than a few parables that he gave his disciples and some miracles credited to him. What happened to Jesus between his birth and age thirteen and then age thirty?
None of the official histories of his times, Jewish or Roman, is reported to make any mention of Jesus Christ, which is quite astonishing for a man with his later influence.
In his book, Kersten has examined in complete and logical detail the known facts, as depicted in the Gospels and co-relates them with the history of those times and the written records left all over Israel, Egypt, the Middle East, Ladakh and North India upto Jagannath which Jesus is believed to have visited as a young man before he took up his ministry. He is reported to have fled because he stepped on the toes of Brahmans over his outbursts against the rigid caste system.
The outcome of the Kersten co-relation is truly amazing, in content and scope and in the implications on ongoing ecclesiastical debates within the various Christian churches and between the different religions of the world. Details of recorded history superimposed on Biblical legends, examined under the light of the natural developments, the lunar and solar calendars and scientific advances paint a picture of Jesus Christ and his life, which is quite different from the one propounded by the New Testament of the Bible.
One of the primary facts that emerges from the Kersten investigations is that Jesus did not die on the cross and ascend into Heavens three days later. He was taken down from the cross merely possibly comatose, after being administered drugs with the drink of vinegar. When he was interred in the sepulcher, he was alive and he was completely restored by the total rest of three days in the cave.
The key to the revival of Jesus is reckoned to be the Shroud of Turin, which was permeated with myrrh and aloe. Both these materials served to help the revival, by “sweating out “ the fever caused by his torture, wounds and the effects of the drug that was administered which enabled the appearance of a premature death. Death by crucifixion is otherwise reckoned to take upto even four or five days, while the gospels indicate that Jesus died within three hours.
According to Kersten and some scientists, it was the “sweating” of the body under the shroud permeated with aloe and myrrh that left the unique and detailed impression on the linen shroud which confounded investigations for centuries.
Using the latest available scientific techniques, Kersten has established the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin and used it to bolster his argument that Jesus lived:
One, that the marks of blood on the shroud from the hands and feet which were nailed, the head which bore the crown of thorns and the lance wound in the side prove that the body in the shroud was breathing, otherwise the blood would not have flowed. Blood does not flow from corpses.
Secondly the positioning of the hands, crossed in front are proof of the fact that he was alive when put into the shroud. Had Jesus been dead, rigor mortis would have set in, in the position that he died i.e. with his arms spread out. Once rigor mortis sets in, it is virtually impossible to change the position of the limbs immediately.
Kersten proves from authentic documentation scattered all over the Middle East, written by Persian, Moslem and other scholars that after the so-called Resurrection, Jesus was forced to flee. In flight he was accompanied, amongst others, by his mother Mary, who could not be left behind at the mercy of those who had ordered his death in the first place.  She accompanied him in all his travels to ultimately die soon after reaching India. There is Jewish grave at More, 70 kms from Taxila in Pakistan, which is believed to be that of Mother Mary.
Unlike Muslim graves that face north south, Jewish graves point east west. It is the similar east-west alignment of the underground grave at Anzimar in old Shrinagar, which lends authenticity its claim of being that of Jesus or Yuz Asaf. Additional proofs are the close-by engraving of his footprints, with the obvious marks of the crucifixion on the feet, accompanied by a crucifix and a rosary.
After his resurrection, Jesus is reported to have headed first for Damascus. Scholarly sources like the Persian scholar Facquir Muhammed’s Jami-ut-Tawarikand Imam Abu Jafar Muhammed’s Tafsir-Ibn-I-Jarir at-Tabri record the arrival of Jesus’ retinue after that of his disciple Thomas, who was later destined to first introduce Jesus’ teachings to India in the first century A.D; this would make Jesus’ brand of Christianity a compassionate home grown religion, with startling similarities to the religion propagated by His guru, Gautam Buddha. And this occurrence takes place centuries before “Christianity“ officially came to India in the wake of Islam.
It was in the Damascus phase that Jesus converted Paul, his greatest persecutor. But according to the Kersten findings, the conversion of Paul also saw the mangling of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Kersten has credited Paul with the current theories of Christ as a savior who takes on the sins of the world and most of the features of modern Christianity which do not sit well with either logic, science or recorded history; he feels that it was the twisting of Jesus’ philosophy which led to the megalomania of an organized church.  He had never prescribed, with forced celibacy and conversions and other features which have put it at variance with other religions of the world.
From Damascus, Jesus’ wanderings were continuously eastwards through Persia and beyond, where the far-flung Children of Israel gave him refuge. Earlier tracing the tragic history of the Jews, the author explains the scattering of the Jews throughout the Middle East, right upto India, where, he propounds, the ten lost tribes of Israel found refuge in Kashmir. Proof is the distinctly Jewish cast of the many of the ‘native’ Kashmiris and the similarities in the Kashmiri language and the ancient Jewish tongue.
The journey to Kashmir took almost sixteen years, by which time, Jesus had become Yuz Asaf, a preacher of note capable of extraordinary healing and miracles who converted King Gundafore of Taxila in 47 A.D. Tarikh-I-Kashmir, a 1413 history book recounts the restoration of the millennium old Temple of Solomon that bears two inscriptions relating to Yuz Asaf who is “Jesus, prophet of the sons of Israel”. The history book records that he came from the Holy Land who made God accessible to the people and spent his life in this valley.
There are at least 21 historical documents bearing witness to Jesus’ stay in Kashmir, apart from the number of place names in Kashmir which offer geographical proof of sorts: Yuzu dhara, Issa Brari, Kal Issa, Issa Kush, Issa Mati etc.
Perhaps one of the most astounding proofs of Jesus’ India sojourn is said to be two of his maxims, not found in any of the gospels, which are inscribed at the Bulund Darwaza, built by Akbar the great in the sixteenth century at Fatehpur Sikri.
Islam has always accepted Jesus as one of the earlier Prophets and deprecated the formation of a separate Church by his followers. The tomb of Jesus, along with his ‘staff’ are maintained in Muslim shrines in Kashmir with due reverence.
But ancient manuscripts in the monasteries in Ladakh reveal that Jesus was, in fact, drawn to the Buddhist principles he had imbibed as a youth during his first sojourn in India. On his return, he took up the same trend and finally came to be accepted as a Bodhisattva who is believed to have perhaps even participated in the grand Council of Haran assembled by Kanishka. The outcome of the Council was the conversion of Kanishka and his entire administration to Buddhism.
According to the gospels, his disciples are aware that Jesus was a reincarnation, of an earlier Prophet, but not sure which one. They had occasion to question him on this matter. At another place, the disciples ask Jesus who was healing a blind man “Master, who did sin, this man or his parents?”
The idea that someone could have been born blind because of previously committed sins can only be based on the premise of a previous life and subsequent rebirth, implicitly reinforcing the Hindu Karma concept. Kersten has traced other references that would indicate that Jesus himself never refuted rebirth, which is the bedrock of Buddhism and Hinduism. As a matter of fact, he refutes the austere punishments favored by Paul, who prescribed the automatic salvation of those who took refuge in the Lord and the automatic ex-communication of all others, no matter how virtuous they may otherwise be.
Instead, he opts for the more ‘kindly’ representation of the Boddhisttava Yuz Asaf, pointing out that the entire destruction of the rebirth doctrine in the Christian faith was actually a “tremendous historical error” of the sixth century to pander to the imperious wife of Emperor Justinian.
Kersten’s final argument however is that acceptance of the rebirth philosophy need not run counter to faith in the teachings of Jesus Christ, his resurrection and his long life. 
This piece was written in May 2006  by Kusum Choppra                 
- See more at: http://www.boloji.com/index.cfm?md=Content&sd=Articles&ArticleID=7610#sthash.V0ma3cAC.dpuf
122.170.159.121 (talk) 13:18, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question:  Did Jesus Die in India? 

message: Cut / Originally a center of Buddhism, Hinduism, and Shaivism for a thousand years before Islam. In 1894 a convert from Judaism to Orthodox Christianity named Nicolas Notovitch (1858 to 1916) published a book "Life of Saint Issa, Best of the Sons of Men" in French. It describes a gospel discovered at a Hermis Buddhist monastery in Ladakh, about the missing life of Jesus in fourteen chapters. This provoked interest because.. /
No it didn't. This has nothing to do with Roza Bal. Notovitch fabricated materials about the age 12-30 years of Jesus, this article concerns Ahmadi claims of events after Jesus' crucifixion. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:50, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed unrelated content from lead

message: Maybe something useful in this source: . Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:58, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  At Srinagar's 'Tomb of Jesus', this Christmas was just another indifferent day 

message: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XfbEDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA276 seems like a reliable source. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:41, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks ok, what would you do with it? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:47, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately next page which would be most useful not visible. Beskow could be a better serious source. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:39, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Would a "Jesus in India" category be a good idea? This article is in the Christianity in India category, which is not obviously valid. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:18, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Generally not into creating new categories for practical reasons, in this case I don't think creating a category for an idea which primarily is promoted by one sect is needed. The Christianity in India category while spurious is still relevant, and is helpful to editors in locating the claimed grave of Christ in India. Relevant and helpful is more important than "valid". In ictu oculi (talk) 08:51, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

text: The topic 'Roza Bal' is not really related to 'Christianity in India', leave alone being a defining characteristic. Hence, I am removing the category. The Discoverer (talk) 13:17, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: And there's still :Category:Alleged tombs of Jesus. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:23, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Add Burke?

message: Every now and then I look in here to see how badly this page keeps getting "improved" by Christians and Muslims...
The Christians are notorious for inserting "professional comments"  by obviously predjudiced "experts". I mean, who would ask staunch Catholic academics about ideas that challenges his very religion?  
For example Wikipedia allows the claims from the following:  "academics dismissing these claims (of Roza Bal as a tomb of Jesus)  includes Günter Grönbold (who outright attacks Ahmadiyya claims), Wilhelm Schneemelcher ( a Protestant theologian) , Norbert Klatt (who relied only on Notovich's texts) , Per Beskow (an ordained Christian theologian) , and Gerald O'Collins (a Catholic theolgian).
I spent 20 years in India and Kashmir living next to the tomb, researching and learning everything I could.... thus understanding what is seriously missing in the Wikipedia version.
Among the supporting evidence, one must examine the 'Rishi Nama", ancient writings of the Kashmiri Rishis, an ancient religious order, the 'Rod of Issa' which was originally inside the Roza Bal tomb, then "gifted" to Aish Muqam in Kashmir. This rod is remarkable for many reasons, including the documentation that states this Rod was the original Rod of Moses and was inherited by Jesus. This rod needs serious scientific examination...Why would a Rod of Moses appear in a Kashmir tomb alleged to be Jesus? Coincidence? Why is there also a grave/memorial  for Mother Mary nearby?  Another coincidence? Or related to the mass migrations of Jews to kashmir during Roman persecutions?  It's worth a deeper look.   Then there are the footprints also found in the tomb. Carved in stone near the base of the sarcophagus are a pair of feet. Each foot has a wound replica...the wounds are not symetrical...and match exactly the wounds on the Shroud of Turin, whereby one foot was painfully crossed over to the other foot, and both held with one large nail...coincidence?      Then there is a family in Kashmir (Bashrat Shaheen,Saleem)  who claim that Yuz Asaf/Jesus is indeed buried in the tomb and they have the original records proving they are descended from him..but due to death threats, they cannot come forward.This is why I became so passionate about the DNA proof...we need DNA from Roza Bal tomb to match with alleged relatives.  There are no religious, moral, or ethical rules against this...in fact proving family descent is the only reason such research would be allowed in all religions!  There are a lot of reasons why Roza Bal is/was identified with Jesus.. none are mentioned in the Wikipedia. So sad. 2601:340:4203:F1A0:0:0:0:3A13 (talk) 10:17, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: PLONK tgeorgescu (talk)  10:47, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd have just deleted it as an obvious self-admitted sock, but striking through instead. Doug Weller talk 13:38, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Still a grossly predjudiced and inaccurate page!