Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/FuelWagon 2

message: SlimVirgin, you'll have to put your accusations into RfC format because you've piled so many into your narative description that I can't address them one at a time. Also, just to be clear, are you opening this RfC up to include all history back to the point where you started editing the Terri Schiavo article? FuelWagon 22:55, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: BYGONES. The RFC is here - let's ignore the motives, past whatevers and blah, and focus on the improvements. You know you could do a better job of WP:COOL, Fuel (I could too). Endorse my outside view, promise to try to be cooler and take the highground here. First party to get out of the mud wins, you know. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:00, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm cool. If no new evidence is brought up on this RfC that I need to defend against, I'm finished here. FuelWagon 22:04, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I had a brief glimmer of hope when I read the above. But then I saw his latest post to Ed. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:44, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm, so the choice was either admit that you moved too far, too fast on the Terri Schiavo article (and consider this whole dispute between you and I closed), or, find a way to expand the dispute and avoid admitting any wrongdoing. Interesting choice. FuelWagon 00:51, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm getting mixed messages. Marskell asked you if you'd end the dispute if I said that, and you said no. Then above you seemed to suggest it might soon close, but then you posted more claims about Ed on his talk page. Can you say more clearly what you're prepared to do, or rather, what you're prepared to stop doing? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:58, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Me admitting that I lost my cool did not require any promises from you to do or stop doing anything. For example, me admitting that I lost my cool did not require that you promise not to endorse Bishonen's outside comment. And now that you've endorsed his outside comment, I won't be withdrawing my statement that I lost my cool. I have absolutely no reason to believe you will ever bury this, but I'm willing to admit I lost my cool. Meanwhile, you seem to be looking for some sort of guarantee, while offering none yourself. You made a reckless edit on Terri Schiavo, you stonewalled legitimate criticism of your edits, you made numerous unfounded accusations, you tried to use my RfC against me after it was deleted, you harrassed me on the Bensaccount RfC, and you're harrassing me here, and those are all truths that don't need promises or guarantees before they can be spoken. In fact, they are truths whether you ever speak them or not. And given that you've never admitted a single mistake on your part since this whole dispute began, I won't be holding my breath for you to have some unconditional honesty now. Unless there's new evidence submitted that I need to defend myself against, I'm finished with this, with or without any promises from you. FuelWagon 02:11, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

message: I just saw the RfC accuses me of "After reverting warring on Terri Schiavo for several months,". Did someone mean to say "after reverting vandals for several months"?  Nothing like laying it on extra thick, I suppose. FuelWagon 18:44, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Duck. Water. Back. Bygones! Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:23, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: While we're discussing the minor details

message: Since it is referenced in the RfC I have archived the chunk of my talk page that has El_C's attempts at combat resolution to a directory under this RfC Wikipedia:Requests for comment/FuelWagon 2/FuelWagonTalkPageSnapshot. I generally delete old comments on my talk page, but was chastized for doing so last time. Since the stuff seems relevant to this RfC, I've archived it under this RfC. FuelWagon 23:57, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: archiving my talk page

message: In response to Neuroscientist posted a long criticism of SlimVirgin's edits. His criticisms were in a style that is characteristic of scientific peer review of questionable research, which pulls no punches and can be harsh and abrasive. As a newcomer to Wikipedia, he apparently did not realize that this style of criticism is, in the Wikipedia community, construed as a personal attack. by McClenon I requested  someone illuminate those of us that can't see the personal attacks you and others see in Neuroscientist's posted criticism of SlimVirgin's edits. WAS 4.250 02:04, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: personal attack

message: Whitewashing [refers] to a particular form of censorship via omission, which seeks to "clean up" the portrayal of particular issues and facts which are already known from Censorship. Nobody here is doing that on purpose, but the human subconcious does that for each and every one of us. Good thing we have each other. WAS 4.250 02:36, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: whitewashing

message: From Wikipedia:Editcountitis: The problem with using edit counts to measure relative level of experience is that it does not take into account that users might have an extensive edit history prior to registering an account (posting anonymously) and that major and minor edits are counted equally, regardless of whether the edit is a typo fix or the creation of a full article. Hence, it is not a reliable way of telling how experienced or worthy an user truly is, even though using the edit count tool is often useful for obtaining a general idea of how the editor interacts with the Wikipedia. WAS 4.250 10:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: number of edits

message: Sorry, I think I should have posted this to Talk in the first place. TShilo12 endorsed my outside view and commented among other things that "the fact that FW has endorsed this summary is, at least in my view, somewhat encouraging...". This was my response:
:TShilo, for a moment I too felt encouraged by FW's endorsement, but on closer inspection I think it's simply a way of complying with the letter of the instruction at the top of the page, Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse, while undermining its spirit. FW's own Response section takes up considerably more than half of this RfC page, but I guess he still hates being confined to it. Does his "endorsement" mention anything in my summary he agrees with? No. Does it take issue with something in my summary? Yep. Discouraging. Bishonen | talk 16:22, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Bishonen, actually, I had a question, which you never answered. In short, does this "all out of good faith" post from SlimVirgin, followed by her sudden involvement in the Bensaccount RfC constitute turning wikipedia into a battlefield? The question is does "battlefield" apply to everyone or just the people you don't like? Because if you reversed the roles, if I had posted this to SlimVirgin and then suddenly found interest in her RfC that I hadn't been involved in for weeks, then I'm sure that you would quickly label that clear evidence of me using wikipedia as a battlefield. But that SlimVirgin does it to me, and you are silent on her behaviour there, leaves me wondering. I agree that turning wikipedia into a battlefield is not a good thing. Im' just wondering if you are neutral enough to see her behaviour as battlefield, or if you come as a biased witness. FuelWagon 00:59, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm sorry, your wonderment is not of my creating, it's your own work and only you can clear it up. I don't mind my conduct being questioned, even if this is not an RfC on me; but my fictional, hypothetical conduct as authored by you is your affair, not mine. You do get carried away, don't you...? You're one of the only two wikipedia users I know who make such accusations by hypothesis ("if I had posted this to SlimVirgin and then suddenly found interest in her RfC that I hadn't been involved in for weeks, then I'm sure that you would...") and seem to think you've established something by them, or that the accused person is obliged to walk into your rhetorical maze. No, I will not answer any questions of the form "Just because I can't prove you beat your wife doesn't mean you wouldn't like to, so will you at least admit you're biased?" I ask you instead about something that actually happened: you endorsing my outside view. You've made it clear you take issue with the battleground accusation, could you please also clarify which parts you did mean to endorse? Bishonen | talk 10:17, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

text: "Could you please also clarify which parts you did mean to endorse?" Or of course repeat and repeat what you've said and said and said, the choice is yours. Bishonen | talk 14:37, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you answer my question so I know exactly what you mean by "battleground"? FuelWagon 14:53, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  No. I will not respond further at all. Bishonen | talk 21:31, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved to Talk: my response to TShilo12's endorsement of my outside view

message: Threaded comment to Ta bu shi da yu's endorsement of outside view by Bishonen moved here. (Compare instructions at the bottom of the RfC page. The page is messy enough as it is.) 
:How can "sarcasm" ever be "inappropriate" to the point of a "personal attack", please provide examples specific to this issue. zen master T 20:18, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved to talk: threaded discussion of outside view

message: :*I object to this attempt to equate my behavior with that of FuelWagon. He does not have a good understanding of NPOV at all, in my view, based on what I've seen of his edits. He thinks he does, but others beg to differ, and it's not for Robert — who's made 207 edits to articles and has never edited with FuelWagon so far as I know — to decide who is right. Secondly, FW has posted thousands and thousands of words (I hate to think how many!) about the copy edit, his blocking by Ed Poor, who-said-what-when, on and on and on and on for three solid months, until you'd think he'd be screaming from the boredom of it, and has done so in a highly selective and distorted fashion, as Ann Heneghan has several times pointed out. Robert, I don't blame you for not wanting to go through the diffs meticuously, but until you do, you have no business deciding what happened. For those of us familiar with the diffs, FW has shown himself not to be an honest broker in this situation. I'd therefore appreciate it if you'd stick to the subject in hand, which is only in part FW's behavior toward me and Ed Poor, but also his behavior toward other editors, which shows the same kind of contempt and aggression. Remember that he first came to my attention because of complaints about him doing this kind of thing, and this was weeks before the Terri Schiavo thing.
:*Above all, it's his level of obsession that greatly concerns me, and I do mean really concerns me. Even as this RfC goes on, he continues to post to people's talk pages about what happened at Terri Schiavo! This isn't normal behavior by any standard, and in fact in the time I've been at Wikipedia, I can't think of any other editor who has behaved like this. Please bear those qualitative distinctions in mind.
:*For what I hope is the last time, I started (started, didn't finish!) a copy edit because the article when I found it  had an odd-looking introduction, was badly referenced, in some places badly written, and was too long, and had FW waited until I'd finished, he might have liked the result. (During its subsequent failed FAC nomination, the objections echoed these concerns, so I wasn't alone in taking that view of it.) One of the article's major flaws was that some contentious points had no source, while others had sources that had been commented out for some reason, and others again had sources (visible and invisible) that didn't say what was being claimed of them. There was also a confusing references section. My plan was to make all the sources visible, delete the ones that didn't back up the text and find ones that did, and create a proper references section. I never got there because of the abuse that started up on the talk page by a group of inexperienced editors — one had 93 edits to articles, another had 218, and a third 276 — led by FuelWagon, who had a tantrum because he had taken ownership of the page and I hadn't asked his permission to edit. There was no excuse for the abuse or for any of the subsequent behavior, which continues to this day. It's poison.
:*Had FW really disliked my copy edit, he could have edited it himself, and that would have been the end of it between rational editors. That it's still being discussed, and that I'm still being harassed because of it, I find embarrassing, childish, and very disturbing, and I hope no one does or says anything that risks encouraging it to continue, or makes FW think he's gained anything by it, because all that means is he'll do it in the future to someone else. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:41, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: moved to talk: threaded response to middle-view

message: ::Just a note to point out that SlimVirgin is a "she" not a "he". Her page is not clear about this and the same confusion occurred when she started editing the Terri Schiavo article. Duckecho referred to her as "madam" at one point, and she became indignant, which further confused things because most of us took her indignation to mean that SlimVirgin was a "he". It eventually came out that SlimVirgin was a "she", but not after much consternation. Anyway, we had the same confusion before. I endorse your statement otherwise. FuelWagon 02:46, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My page isn't clear about it? I've named myself after a Javanese princess and my talk page shows a picture of my poodle in a coat and boots. It doesn't exactly reek of testosterone. The reason I queried being called "madam" was only because of the pompous silliness of it. Anyway, Vizcarra knows I'm a woman, because he was in e-mail contact with me over his 3RR violation, just as you were, FW, over your 3RR violation, several weeks before I edited Schiavo. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: On the one hand, the user page is clear enough, and does refer to the legend of a princess, and does state that she (Slimvirgin) values truth.  On the other hand, I did not see any poodle.  I did see a female drummer.  Robert McClenon 20:27, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: All I remember about our email "contact" regarding my 3RR violation was that I was inserting a verbatim quotation from Al Gore with a URL to verify it's accuracy and a vandal kept deleting it. For quoting Al Gore, you called me "partisan editor" or some absurdity to that effect. As for gender confusion, there was some confusion on the Terri Schiavo article regarding your gender. But once again, rather than admit any contribution to that, you come back with more accusations against others and blame them. FuelWagon 04:48, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: moved to talk: threaded response to comment by Vizcarra

message: I am in general opposed to threaded comments in Requests for Comments.  They can easily get out of hand and become very confusing as to who is saying what.  Since a user conduct RfC is itself evidence that other discussion has failed, it is important for outsiders to be able to tell who has said what.  I am normally in favor of the idea of moving threaded comments from RfC article pages to RfC talk pages.  However, having said that, why is FuelWagon leaving his own threaded comments on the article page while moving other comments to the talk page?
It is quite true that SlimVirgin's gender is both obvious and irrelevant.  Can we please avoid having a war about it?  Robert McClenon 20:24, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought I had refrained from adding threaded comments to the page. If I disputed something said by someone and felt it needed a response, I posted a copy in my response area and then added my reply. If there are threaded comments by me, I'll move them. FuelWagon 03:24, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Threaded Comments 

message: :Two quick comments... First, compiling the above table does nothing to strengthen any argument you might be trying to make...it simply indicates that certain members of the [growing number of] editors who take issue with your edits and edit summaries share common interests, or equally monitor recent edits, not that there is some overriding conspiracy to befoul your name.  Second, your remark regarding goethean is (a) a personal attack against goethean specifically, and (b) an expression of bad faith in the community at large [cf. the "snowball effect" bit].  Neither of these do anything whatsoever to cast either you or your activities and interactions with other editors in a good light. Tomer TALK 10:03, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment regarding compilation of "cabal" table and related remarks

message: Please stop deleting people's comments from the project page. You've done this with every single RfC I've ever seen you involved in. It's the same control freakery that caused a problem at Schiavo. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:15, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: oh, there was a control freak on Terri Schiavo, but it wasn't me. I believe it was the editor who came in, inserted a number of factual errors, and whose complete inability to admit even a single mistake and instead accused everyone else of causing problems was more the root of the problem. That you continue to accuse everyone else of causing problems here, rather than admiting you might be contributing to the problem is no surprise. FuelWagon 03:27, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm, actually, you deleted TWO of my comments on the Bensaccount RfC talk page. But again, if you do it, apparently its OK. FuelWagon 04:23, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: FuelWagon moving comments

message: ###I'll post an answer to that on the talk page later tonight. However, one thing I'd like to point out is that, as far as I know, the only person ever to use the word "attack" with regard to Neuroscientist's post is FuelWagon, who continuously informs the Wikipedia community that Ed Poor gave Neuroscientist a warning about WP:NPA. Ed did not use the word "attack". He asked Neuroscientist to "please" be careful not to hurt people's feelings by making personal remarks. That sounds pretty polite to me. FuelWagon keeps saying that Ed "attacked" people who "criticized" SlimVirgin, but so far, he has not provided any evidence of someone who "criticized" (not attacked) Slim and was then "attacked" (not criticized) by Ed. More comments to follow on the talk page later. Ann Heneghan (talk) 20:47, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: moving another block of threaded comments for consistency

message: Can someone please explain why there's a revert war on the main project page? --Viriditas  | Talk 04:16, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: FuelWagon is deleting people's comments and moving them here. He's violated 3RR, and when I offered him the opportunity to revert himself, thinking that perhaps he hadn't noticed, he called my edits vandalism and said that 3RR therefore didn't count. In other words, he has started up again. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:18, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Bishonen started moving threaded comments to talk as per RfC instructions. I've since moved a number of other threaded comments to talk as per RfC instructions. SlimVirgin has attempted to force her threaded comments back into the RfC against RfC instructions. Perhaps I am misunderstanding 3RR policy, but reverting something that is directly opposed to policy doesn't count on the 3RR policy. SlimVirgin has also informed me that "I have no business" moving these threaded comments, even though they directly violate the RfC instructions, yet she did not give Bishonen the same admonishment when Bishonen moved the first threaded comment to Talk. FuelWagon 04:22, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: 3RR counts with everything except simple vandalism. Read Wikipedia:Three revert rule. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Moving comments to the appropriate section of the talk page is not vandalism when they are left intact. Read Wikipedia:Vandalism#Types_of_vandalism. Changes to comments are vandalism when somebody edits them "to substantially change their meaning," the given example being to change a vote. Rangerdude 07:18, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think she was trying to say that her edits were not vandalism (and thus could not be reverted with impunity), not that FuelWagon's were. However, it seems clear to me that the instructions right on the main page clearly state that FW is right to move the comments here. SlimVirgin is correct by the letter of 3RR but FuelWagon is correct by both the letter and spirit of the rules for RFC pages; it seems to me that in this case the latter is the more important of the two, by far. PurplePlatypus 08:52, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Moreover, I just noticed this highly misleading edit summary which I shall permit to speak for itself. PurplePlatypus 09:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That appears to be a cloaked revert, which would give her 4 in a period of less than 24 hours - , , , . Rangerdude 17:01, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert war 

message: This revert war is ridiculous.  FuelWagon is correct as to the letter and spirit of the RfC instructions that threaded comments are out of line.  SlimVirgin is correct that 3RR has been violated.  Any allegations of vandalism are out of line.  It is not that important where the threaded comments are to have a revert war.  
I thought that progress had been made with FuelWagon agreeing to stop demanding an accounting for "truth" about the past on talk pages, and to proceed to ensuring truth (e.g., accuracy, NPOV) on article pages.  Can we move on?  Robert McClenon 15:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: A request for common sense

message: Well, Robert, I know you have quite a bit of faith in the dispute resolution process at wikipedia (a somewhat naive faith, in my opinion, but your results may vary). I have told you from the beginning that process ain't worth Jack if the people running the process are themselves part of the problem. And I know you've got an overwhelming amount of faith in the mediation process, so I thought I'd report to you that the Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Ed Poor and FuelWagon has failed. The mediator (Improv) has withdrawn due to a complete lack of participation from Ed Poor. 16 days ago, Improv emailed us (because Ed Poor wanted to do mediation by email) a number of questions to start mediation. I responded in full. Ed responded basically saying he "needed more time". 15 days later, no response from Ed, and Improv emails him a "prod", asking for his answers. no response. A day later, Improv withdraws from mediation because he only mediates one dispute at a time, and Ed has gone 2+ weeks without a response to mediation. Ed did, however, find the time to make about 650 edits to wikipedia in those two weeks. So, now what, Robert? The people who are part of the problem are also part of the dispute resolution process, and if they don't want to deal with something, they either get their mob friends to close ranks around them, or they simply don't respond at all. Anyway, your calls to use the dispute resolution process appear to be pointless. Arbcom ruled Ed did no wrong and "didn't have time" to deal with finding out what particular wrongs he may have done. A pardon. I asked the mediation chairman if they had any process for dealing with a mediator who failed to mediate. He asked me if I wanted to stamp Ed's forhead with something or fire him as mediator. I try mediation, and Ed simply doesn't show up. So, in the future, please spare me your talk about resolving things through channels. I've tried every step, and as long as the people causing the problems have friends who are running the process, then the process is a joke. And I think your efforts to change or rearrange the process are pointless as long as friends are allowed to pass judgement on friends and enemies are allowed to gang up on their enemies. You seem to think a jury system is overkill. Everything I've seen says its the only thing that will fix the problem. But by all means, focus on the process and ignore the problem and the problem users. All the best. FuelWagon 01:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: mediation failed

message: While we're on the subject of "past wrongs", the reason this entire RfC was started in the first place was because I didn't go along with the mob attempting to roast Zephram. Immediately after I posted comments  Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Zephram_Stark#Outside_view_by_FuelWagon here, Carbonite suggests that he will Rfc me. Immediately after I post evidence Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Zephram_Stark/Evidence#Evidence_presented_by_User:FuelWagon here, Carbonite creates this RfC. By all means, look at the outside comment and the evidence I submitted and tell me what terrible, dishonest, or (to use Robert's word) disrespectful thing I said there. There are none. This RfC started as simple retribution and expanded into SlimVirgin dumping everything I had ever done wrong on wikipedia (she mentions a 3RR violation from six months ago) and she makes up a bunch of stuff too. FuelWagon 20:52, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: past wrongs

message: FuelWagon, you are one of the smartest contributors ever to arrive at Wikipedia, but your incivility is maddening, and it's got to stop.
Nobody wants to ban you. Be logical about this. If we wanted to ban you, the ban would have taken effect weeks ago. I've got enough pull around here -- yes, even after stepping down from bureacrat after making a terrible mistake -- to get you banned, if that's what I wanted. But I did not try to do that, because that is not what this community is about. 
::Ed:  I don't know whether you have the pull to get FuelWagon banned if you wanted him banned.  I hope that that is not true, because I hope that banning of users is done judicially by the ArbCom on review of the evidence.  Whether or not you do, by saying that, you are contributing to the idea that FuelWagon is pursuing that there is a cabal.  I think that you used poor judgment just now in making that comment.  Robert McClenon 23:25, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you mean that you could have written an RfAr weeks ago, and that the ArbCom would probably have accepted it, I agree.  Robert McClenon 23:25, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think "I've got enough pull around here" says it all, Robert. It's staring you in the face and you chose not to see it. FuelWagon 02:49, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Other than that, I agree with you, and I think that the consensus of the community (although not the entire community, which is never unanimous) agrees with you.  Robert McClenon 23:25, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

text: An olive branch? When in the world did anyone throw me an olive branch? Never has that happened here on wikipedia. Perhaps you forget that it was I who withdrew my own certification of the RfC against SlimVirgin? No? Oh well, in any case, that should have counted as an olive branch. But a month later, SlimVirgin was announcing that no "credible" editor had ever endorsed that RfC against her. Did Slim recognize it? The more I tried to keep the truth about the RfC, the more she attacked me. Was El_C's combat negotiations an "olive branch"? I'm sorry if I didn't see it as such, I was too busy getting threatened. How about SlimVirgin's sudden interest in the Bensacount RfC? Yeah, that was purely a sign of peace going on. And because I put a verbatim quote from a notable source and a URL to verify it on the Terrorism article, I get attacked by SlimVirgin, Jayjg, Carbonite, et al for being a POV pusher. When I report their behaviour on a Terrorism rfc they had started against Zephram that blamed Zephram for everything wrong with the article, for that I got the retribution RfC you are reading now. Yeah, sure, there's a whole grove of olive trees going on right here in wikipedia. Ed, your dedicated interest in my attempts to mediate with you were certainly inspiring, too. FuelWagon 02:49, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

text: "what do you gain by staying here and being loud?" Are you suggesting I should just go quietly? FuelWagon 16:11, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: What the community wants

message: I would appreciate an explanation by Ed Poor as to what he means by "having enough pull".  FuelWagon:  If you are correct in inferring that Wikipedia is run by a cabal, and that Ed meant what he said literally, then what do you gain by staying here and being loud?  Ed:  What did you mean?  Robert McClenon 00:37, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "what do you gain by staying here and being loud?" Are you suggesting I should just go quietly? FuelWagon 16:11, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for explanation by Ed Poor