Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/Archive 4

message: Lets look at the facts:
#Are either of the Tanners professionals or have any sort of relevant, higher or graduate education? No, they are mere anti-Mormon propogandists.
#Are any of the Tanners' (anti-Mormon) works either presented or published in peer reviewed publications. No, their incompetent work does not merit respect in such publications.
#What is the quality of their (anti-Mormon) work? Unscholarly and Poor. It is, for example, a regular tactic of the Tanners to misrepresent the Church and its History by (incompetent or more likely deliberate) omimission of relevant text in their citations. Not to mention the odd habit of OVEREMPHASIS BY CAPITALIZING, BOLDING AND ITALICIZING SOMETIMES WHOLE PARAGRAPHS EVEN WHEN QUOTING OTHERS TO CONVEY SENSATIONALISM OF SHOCKING MISREPRESENTATIONS OF THE CHURCH!!!
#Are there any non-Mormon scholars who think highly of the Tanners' (anti-Mormon) works as a whole or their methodology? No, not a single one.
#Are there any non-Mormon scholars who are critical of the Tanners' (anti-Mormon) works? Yes, for example, Lawrence Foster, an associate professor of American history at the Georgia Institute of Technology who has over a decade's experience on Mormonism, says this of the Tanners' work: 
*(Until they "are prepared to abide by accepted standards of scholarly behavior and common courtesy, they can expect little sympathy from serious historians," and "the Tanners' own work falls short of history." 
*"The Tanners have repeatedly assumed a holier-than-thou stance, refusing to be fair in applying the same debate standard of absolute rectitude which they demand of Mormonism to their own actions, writings, and beliefs."
*Foster gives the Tanners credit for publishing old LDS documents, "but criticizes them for using unauthorized materials which" have been acquired leaving "much to be desired, ethically speaking." The Tanners often publish "scholarly works of living individuals without their permission," because "the end (destroying Mormonism) justifies the means."
*"The Tanners seem to be playing a skillful shell game in which the premises for judgment are conveniently shifted so that the conclusion is always the same — negative."
Now given just this brief rundown on the Tanners, Sheldon (or anyone else) can you honestly, sincerely state that it is NPOV to reference the Tanners' obviously, biased website propoganda on this wikipedia article? not to mention referencing it without any comment? B 16:53, Jan 6, 2004 (UTC)
:I agree that these people do not sound like very good sources. But they should not be criticised for publishing materials that the Church wanted to keep hidden. Any church that suppresses its own teachings for non-members, like Scientology, is probably dangerous. An ethical religion makes all of its teachings open and public. Hidden teachings are proof that someone is hiding something. JeMa 17:21, Jan 6, 2004 (UTC)
::It is POV to simply heap disparaging adjectives like "incompetent" and "unprofessional" on the Tanners. This is an article about the LDS Church, not the Tanners. The church has both supporters and critics, and the Tanners are among the most critics. They certainly merit mention, but your one-sided characterization of them is POV. For that reason, I have created a separate article about the Tanners. If you want to criticize them, you should do it there. And regardless of whether you agree with their interpretations and emphasis, you should be careful about accusing them of errors. An error is a false fact that can be proven false. I have seen very few criticisms of their work that point to actual errors of this type. Take, for example, the critique of them that was written a number of years ago by "an anonymous Mormon historian." It criticizes them for inappropriate emphasis, judging Mormonism according to different standards than they apply to traditional Christianity and for selective uses of evidence (all matters of interpretation), but doesn't point to any specific falsehoods in their work. Neither does the professor whose critique you mention above. And both the "anonymous Mormon historian" and Lawrence Foster concede (to quote Saint Anonymous), that "The Tanners have published some very useful collections of excerpts and documents that otherwise would have to be read in the library-archives where they are located."  Your hostile adjective create the one-sided, POV and misleading impression that there is nothing whatsoever of value to be found in the Tanners' work, yet even their critics concede that the documents they have republished are genuine and of historical interest.
::Moreover, many of your disparaging adjectives, such as "incompetent" and "unprofessional," could also be applied to Joseph Smith, who wasn't a university professor either and had no formal training in translating "Reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics." As for his ethics, where should I start? Money-digging? The bank scandal in Kirtland? Destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor? Right now this article is long enough as it is, even without a discussion of Smith's character, let alone a discussion of the character of critics of the church like the Tanners. That sort of material belongs in a separate article or articles.
::By the way, the correct spelling of "propoganda" is "propaganda." --Sheldon Rampton 19:11, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it violates NPOV policy to say that the Tanners are "anti-Mormon propagandists." That's exactly what they are. I would characterize them as "born-again Christian propagandists against what they perceive as the heresies of Mormonism." I think they themselves would agree with that characterization, although they might prefer a word like "campaigners" over "propagandists." What violates NPOV is simply calling them things like "unprofessional" or saying that their work is "sloppy" and "inaccurate" without some backing for it. I don't think there's space in the LDS Church article for an adequate discussion of the Tanners' pros and cons, so I think the article about the church should limit itself to saying that they are critics of Mormonism, and then use a separate article to discuss their pros and cons. In the article about the Tanners, I think it would be perfectly appropriate to include some of the comments from Lawrence Foster that you've posted here, preferably with attribution to Foster. Also, I think you should be careful about terms like "sloppy" and "inaccurate." Their work is certainly one-sided, but their obsession with detail is enormous. Look at their book on "changes to the Book of Mormon." They've got every comma and minor word change catalogued. If they were better propagandists, they'd leave out all the trivial stuff (which often makes their work virtually unreadable) and focus on the things that have some doctrinal significance or shock value. Or look at the way they've converted "The Changing World of Mormonism" into an online book. If a word was hyphenated across two pages in the print version, they've made a point of noting that in the online version. If they were any more obsessive with details, they'd be autistic. If you want to note that the facts in their work can be interpreted differently, that's perfectly fine with me, but if you want to say that their work is "sloppy" and "inaccurate," I think the onus is on you to point out some specific examples of inaccuracies. Moreover, I think the onus is on you to show that the inaccuracies were deliberate, significant and went uncorrected after someone pointed the errors out to them. Everyone makes mistakes occasionally, and if you want to build this case against the Tanners, you have to show that their mistakes are bad enough to constitute bad faith.--Sheldon Rampton 04:37, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't know a thing about the Tanners, but I agree that if there's much to say about them, it should be in a separate article. I think there's already a Joseph Smith Jr. article that has biographical information and probably some info on allegations regarding his character. Wesley 19:34, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well you haven't missed much.  You'd probably find as much entertainment reading the propaganda about the pope being the anti-christ.  At any rate, I've started a "List of prominent critics and controversial Mormons" section on the Controversies regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article. I don't have motivation to make it comprehensive at this point.  I suppose it can be filled out as new articles are created. B 23:14, Jan 6, 2004 (UTC)
Incidentally, most of the sources they "make available" or widely publish are available in the Church archives (and Church historical office) to anyone who wishes to go and do the research - no one disputes that they make some documents more accessible to the public - although it is interesting some of their choices of materials to research. I've seen the Tanners while doing research there and frankly, there are too many documents and too much information there to publish it all for wide consumption at a reasonable cost, although much is done every year in commissioned work. -Visorstuff 21:05, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The Tanners and their Utah Lighthouse Ministry