Talk:Falun Gong/Archive 7

message: There is some controversy within the Falun Gong community concerning Li's teachings on homosexuality. Some practitioners have stated that each practitioner speaks for himself concerning this issue, while others claim that Li's teachings are directed towards practitioners for personal guidance and self-cultivation, rather than to discriminate against or judge others. Most practitioners seem to agree with Li that homosexuality is not an inborn trait, but instead reflects  deviations from the natural order that have occurred at the higher levels. These deviations are considered to be part of the cause of homosexuality and part of the need for Fa-rectification.
--Samuel Luo 04:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Falun Gong and sexual orientation 

message: Yep, that's right. Getting a bunch of email spam from FLG lately. Getting more and more desperate, they are. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 23:18, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  FLG now debased to spamming? 

message: I hope that with the split, the main article can be a short, reliable, and detached description about Falun Gong, written for the curious outsider. I very much encourage everyone to add information about the finer points of FG's teachings, history, and persecution, but please do so in the appropriate new articles. Weel 12:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you communicated with other editors about this? I don't think you did. Such a major revision requires the consensus of editors working on this article. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 19:17, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split 

message: Both movements use swastikas. We have long been living in an age whereby we can no longer claim that one hemisphere's use of the swastika is totally independent of and unconnected to that of the other. But the key similarity of both swastika-proud movements is an apparent credence in an ultimately racist dogma of racial purity. True, Falun Gong isn't advocating 'ethnic cleansing' (nor did the Nazis prior to empowerment, nor did they ever admit to its occurrence) - but to those in interracial marriages and families, its condemnation of same must appear to amount to some degree of unhelpful interference, if not persecution? 
It is all too obviously apparent that a frustrated Chinese electorate, denied the opportunity to form alternative political parties (including, presumably, an alternative communist party) has resorted to an ultimately flawed attempt to 'cock a snook' at the ageing hierarchy and assert itself.
Tomananda (above) speaks of an 'endless revert war;' the same applies on this aspect of the topic. 'You win again, so easily' - but not the moral victory. Etaonsh 17:51, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's an old, old symbol in both Hindu and Chinese Buddhist (and even Jewish!) iconography that well predates FLG's usage of it, by thousands of years. It is even sometimes used in Chinese religious writing to represent the number "10,000" (wan}. I see its use, and the use of the taijitu, more as Li's attempt to associate his organisation and his idiosyncratic (and mostly un-Buddhist and un-Taoist) religious views with Buddhist and Taoist traditions; tacitly saying "See my symbols? I'm Buddhist and Taoist too!" to his audience. --Fire Star 23:06, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that Li Hongzhi has any special abilites beyond an industrious PR department, or that FLG is anything more than a run-of-the-mill qigong, but I want to be as fair as possible. Buddhism and Taoism are contemporary religions as well. Chinese Buddhists routinely use the swastika in their public imagery, and I have seen similar disclaimers about Nazism on Buddhist websites in Western languages. While Nazi use of their "hackenkreuz" symbol is glaringly obvious to Westerners, I don't believe thoughts of Nazism occur to most Chinese or Japanese Buddhists when they see one over Amitabha's heart on a statue, or a parade of monks marching in swastika formation in a religious procession, as weird as it looks in the West. You may be able to see an example of the swastika on the heart in the following photo (there are other examples in the photo, too, sorry about the size):
--Fire Star 00:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hitler did tend to associate himself with "pagan" symbolism, whether to weaken the position of the Lutherans or Catholics if they ever decided to criticise him (which I don't believe they did while he was alive) or for some occult reason. I agree it probably didn't hurt him with right wing Chinese (he supported the Kuomintang militarily in the mid-1930s against the communists) or, later, with the extremely xenophobic Japanese nationalists, but he may have adopted the symbol before he became an international player, so it makes me wonder if it was a happy (for him) accident or if the swastika was a conscious decision to align with Asian groups. An expert may be able to tell us more. --Fire Star 18:30, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Also unique to Li's teachings is the rôle he himself plays in the "rectification" of the world and his students, saying as he does in his lectures in different ways that without his personal intervention, they cannot be saved. He explains things with language and imagery drawn from other traditions, but his approach and what he actually teaches is very distinct from those traditions. --Fire Star 02:29, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh man! He really said those things? One of the things people starting religious groups do is to try to manufacture exclusivity for their followers, so that they'll feel "special" and their egos will buy into the flattery of their master. Spiritual apartheid... --Fire Star 15:02, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  'No connection between Falun Gong and Nazism'? 

message: I apologize for being a little harsh in my editional comments. I've been away for a while, and now that I returned, I noticed that there had been a lot of dubious changes.
I think it's important to mention that at least two American journalists had also given the figure of 70 million practitioners and that the source for this number was State Sports Administration. Now somebody had formulated the first chapter as if Falun Gong was only trying to exaggerate.
I removed the selections from Li's biography. We have discussed it before. As far as I recall, Fire Star said that we cannot use it as a source, because it's no longer in print. It's hard to verify any selections.
Li has never said that non-practitioner homosexuals have to give up their behaviour or meet with ultimate punishment. I don't understand why you feel that you can include your own "presumptions" in the article. (..."and presumably live a celibate life"...)
Also, I hoped that my reminder about the Wikipedia policies would've had an effect. It didn't. People are still using unauthorized sources for making conclusive allegations (such as "Li's neighbors and brother-in-law have stated..."). Please keep in mind: this is a non-partisan encyclopedia article, not an "exposé"! It would be nice if you learned to report your own POV with a certain self-reflectivity. At a minimum you could say "According to [my eminent source], [X and Y] have stated...". But you can't use any source you please.
Regards, ---Olaf Stephanos 22:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is some info on admissable sources at cite your sources, and we certainly shouldn't make our own presumptions in the article. I think, still, that we are a pretty well-behaved bunch compared to some articles I've worked on, if that is any help. We can agree to disagree across the spectrum, I hope, lots of the things Li has said are also said by other religions, too, so there is precedent as far as reporting his controversial statements at articles like Roman Catholicism or Joseph Smith Jr. that may be interesting. As big as its getting (I haven't had a chance yet to work on splitting the article up, unfortunately) and as often as its changing, I still have seen, again, much worse reporting at other articles. On the whole, considering how much info there is out there, the article doesn't come off as too preachy or condemnatory, IMO. --Fire Star 01:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm removing the info in the origins section taken from the Chinese newpaper article. This article was published by a state-run newspaper six days after the persecution of Falun Gong began. There's no way we can include this as a valid source. Besides, information about Mr. Li's abilities as a child have no context in the "origins" section. Mcconn 17:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some words from Olaf 

message: I apologize if this has already been pointed out. In the "Allegations of organ harvesting" section, it states "According to at least two witnesses interviewed by The Epoch Times, internal organs of living Falun Gong practitioners have been harvested and sold to the black market, and the bodies have been cremated in the hospital's boiler room. " The two parts of the sentence—1. organs being harvested from living people and 2. their bodies being cremated—seem inconsistent. Further, while the source probably does include the statements backing up that section of the article, it would be better if the external link pointed to the specific article that back ups the statements or, if necessary, that multiple external links to specific articles be used. Theshibboleth 21:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organ harvesting 

message: Could someone please add a line or two to the intro that explains what the source of agitation is between Falun Gong and the Chinese government, why the two are at odds with each other?  --Xtreambar 00:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be nice if it were that easy, while it seems like a good idea, there is a lot of debate as to what the issue really is. Both FLG and the CCP have their versions, and outside observers have theirs. The best we can do is present the facts that we have from what they both say and go from there. --Fire Star 01:07, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: This would be a nice idea if someone can do the writing.  By way of background, you might get some ideas from Samuel Luo's website at:  The True Nature of Falun Gong
this article seems to become a crap. What's all these pro-falun gong photos doing there? One or two photos is enough. And there should be one one or two anti photo as well.
I was reading the article after the incident involving Wenyi Wang and President Hu Jintao on April 20th, and while I see that it's a heavily edited entry, I think there should be some clarifications made in the introduction regarding the following statement: "Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999 for its illegal activities." I was initially confused by this statement, as there had been no mention of the group doing anything illegal; later, in section 9, Government Crackdown, it is stated that the practice of Falun Gong was made illegal in July of 1999. I believe an edit to mention after the aforementioned sentence is warranted -- unless I am misunderstanding the issue and there were indeed illegal acts which consisted of more than simply "the practice of Falun Gong." I'm not going to make the edit myself, as I don't understand the issue. --Philodespotos 04:16, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Intro 

message: Despite my urge to point out how flawed the FLG deconstruction video is, I think I'll focus on some facts in the news media which were neglected. So I've added two links and brief descriptions under the Self Immolation Incident.
--Yenchin 20:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Balancing Articles on the Self Immolation Incident 

message: It’s clear in the article that the house was a gift to Mr. Li and therefore does not reflect Mr. Li’s income or spending practices. Moreover, Mr. Li refused the house, which is clarified by the practitioner who bought the house in this letter (http://cw83913.zhufa.org/emh/articles/1999/11/3/10767.html). The house which Mr. Li admitted to living in in the report was at least partially paid for by James Pang, which is clear in the quote “James Pang, who was among Mr. Li's first followers in the U.S. and helped rent the Queens apartment for Mr. Li.” Therefore none of this information reflects any notable financial or business aspects of Falun Gong. So I have removed it. Mcconn 15:55, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The section is not about Mr. Li's income and spending practices, it is about the organization and financial aspects of Fulan Gong. Since the transaction was done as a direct result of Fulan Gong involvement by all parties, I feel it's worthy of inclusion. The rebuttal you use above can be included as well, but you have to do that part. CovenantD 05:07, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wall Street Journal Gift House Article 

message: The caption below the Falun Emblem reads '...To Western eyes
it resembles the swastika used by Nazi Germany...' To 
Western eyes, or to modern eyes? Etaonsh 15:49, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Definately Western. I live in Taiwan and it is first and foremost a Buddhist symbol here. You can see it everywhere. It's the symbol for vegetarian food too. A lot of people here wouldn't know what you were talking about or would be offended if you told them it was a Nazi symbol. Mcconn 16:22, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Anachronism. Falun Gong clearly states that it employs this symbol because it represents a Buddha status. That's an age-old idea. There is no connection between the Falun and the Nazi Swastika when they're used in entirely different contexts. ---Olaf Stephanos 16:04, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, having studied Buddhism in China (Shanghai, Hong Kong and Taiwan) I agree that there is very little conscious connexion between use of the swastika on the part of East Asian religionists and that by the Nazis. As we can see from the photo I put in above (click to enlarge) the orientaion of rotation from right to left or left to right is pretty much arbitrary, though, both rotations obviously being used in the above image, so the part about the distinction based on rotation shouldn't be in the article. --Fire Star 16:18, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See: Unihan database info on wàn --Fire Star 17:09, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

text: But what does that have to do with the article? For us to assert that Li was asserting pro-Hitler sympathies whn he chose the wàn as a logo isn't supported by any evidence that we currently have. We would pretty much need a direct quote from him saying so, anything else is original research. FWIW, I don't use the symbol, myself, for just the reasons you bring up, if that is any help. For me, it is too associated with WWII to be helpful, but that is a personal choice. I respect the "religions" that I do just because they aren't dependent upon sectarian symbolism or ritual for their practical benefits. If you want to try to use shame or other means to compel literally billions of Asians to stop seeing the wàn as an auspicious symbol, though, then good luck! --Fire Star 19:41, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can find a published source for a notable criticism of FLG or Li on these grounds, that would be worth putting in the article. --Fire Star 20:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Your point directly concurs the "To Western eyes". Viewpoints and thoughts are not solely based on a mass massacre which happened in a Western nation. Yet you keep on using such a viewpoint on East Asia. The difference is more than a mere 45 degree angle, sufficient enough that no one sees problem of the Buddhism version of the swastika (China uses it, contradicting your KMT argument. Japan uses it, shouldn't they be more sensitive?)
The Holocaust and its sites are part of World Heritage now. 8 million is a number which cannot be ignored anywhere without implications of callousness. Intentional or not, the modern use of the swastika seems to bring not good look, but suspicions of Holocaust indifference, all too easily reinforced by evidence of continuing traditional cultural insensitivity and cruelty. Etaonsh 20:06, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

text: What type of usage? Not good look to whom? Does Buddhism have history of mass massacre? Did Buddhists support Hitler's "Final Solution"? And I hate to sound nitpicking here, but, when you say "which cannot be" you are already acknowledging the fact that East Asians seldom relate the swastika to Nazism. News flash: Your points are still consistent with the "In Western eyes".--Yenchin 03:15, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

text: On a sidenote, the Hsi Lai Temple in the States also uses it . Do we see protesting groups over there demanding a removal?--Yenchin 19:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was used to support the fact that the Buddhist use of the swastika is really not a big deal to whine about.--Yenchin 03:15, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  For your eyes only? 

message: This article is way to big, we need to break up sections of it into seperate articles so that the main one isn't to large for people to read. For example, the Falun Gong view on Homosexuality could be taken out and made into a seperate article entirely. --The Fading Light 4:22, 22 April 2006
:Fading Light, I agree. This is over twice as large as Wikipedia recommends. We need to start spinning a lot of this stuff off into their own articles and be ruthless about shunting new detail over to them, leaving only summaries here. CovenantD 22:49, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This Article is TOO BIG! 

message: Earlier today, I cleaned up the syntax in this section. An anonyous user pointlessly reverted it to the older version with clumsy syntax. "10 languages in press" is not standard English. As well, it's pointless to have the newspaper's name repeated twice in one sentence.
If you don't like the copy, edit it, don't revert it. This is an English-language Wikipedia and I'm only trying to work on the syntax here, not the content. Jeff Fenstermacher 22:05, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "April 2006 Hu visit protests" section 

message: It seems that this rightfully belongs under the section on Beliefs and Teachings rather than on it's own. Anybody disagree and if so why? CovenantD 23:49, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This section has been discussed  for the past month and deserves to be its own section. It also needs to report fully what Li has said about this topic and, if anything,  could be longer.  I have reverted the content to the original. I have also made a change to satisfy those practitioners who did not like the "and presumably lead a celibate life" wording.--Tomananda 07:26, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Falun Gong and sexual orientation 

message: As I said in my last edit, at least 4 sections were deleted:  Li as Savior, Demons, Englighenment and Claims to Historical Significance by practitioners such as Dilip or Mcconn or others.  This is about practitioners dishonestly engaging in a major reorganization and deletion of whole sections of an article that has been worked on for many weeks without discussion or consensus.  This is about the bullying tactics of the Falun Gong in general which can't stand to see it's own master's teachings reported in a balanced article on the Falun Gong.  And it's about adding a great deal of self-promotional material which aims to obscure the core beliefs. I will do a separate posting requesting mediation right now.  Fire Star and Mbovorofsy:  do you agree?--Tomananda 15:37, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * none of the factual material have been deleted? How can you say that when even your Master's own statements are deleted. Such a concealment of information is what cults do to deceive the public. Falun Gong does not own this page on the wikipedia, stop turning it into a Falun Gong propaganda page. 
--Samuel Luo 18:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Mediation 

message: Please explain why so many photos showing scenes of meditation and lecturing are necessary. 
I will say again this article is too large and either needs to be trimmed to a reasonable size or major sections need to be relocated and a link and a summary put in their place. CovenantD 19:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, there are way too many photos.  Also, I am open to creating some new pages, one of which should be:  "Critics and Controversial Teachings"   This back-and-forth with different reverts is wasting our time. Dilip went through a series of edits which added new sections, but also deleted a lot of existing content that is critical of the FG.  So now I feel the only way to make any progress is to do a split.  It's for that reason I have moved (and in some cases re-titled) critical sections, including the one on sexual orientation, to the Critics and Controversial Teachings section.  Fire Star: can you help here?  --Tomananda 20:14, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added in the link to the main article on Teachings. I agree that It seems fair for the critics get their own page. Then we can get people working on summaries for this one and cut the size of the page. CovenantD 20:18, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi guys, I've been rather busy in the "real world" the last day or so, but I'll try to get some editing time in tomorrow... --Fire Star 05:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good, I can get some sleep now. Struggling to maintain a balanced, smaller article, I am CovenantD 05:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  reintroducing excess photos 

message: Looking both at the size of the article and the rather Herculean task of effectivly chopping the article down to size without destroying it's usefulness (not to mention protecting the articles from vandalizm) I would suggest that we create an offical Project:Falun Gong to organize and plan out how we are going to edit and improve all Wiki articles related to Falun Gong. But I'm not a good leader, and I'm not sure how many people would be willing to work on such a project, so it anyone willing to give it a shot? The Fading Light 7:16, 24 April 2006
:I don't know enough about Projects and Wikipedia to answer that, but I am still intrigued by the idea. Of course, not that many people make use of this talk page already so it's effectiveness is questionable. Could we limit edits to only those involved in the Project? It would be soooo useful to stop the hacks. :) CovenantD 23:42, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hell no. Wikipedia is THE FREE ENCYCLOPEDIA THAT ANYONE CAN EDIT. Such demands will not be entertained. Ever. If you want, go start your own Falun Gong wiki somewhere else. The MediaWiki software is released under GPL. Then you can restrict edits and impose your editorial policies. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 05:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I'm glad that we have some people who want to work on the article(s). For a long time, it has just been a few of us, Myself, Miborovsky, Olaf, etc. Then Tomananda, Dilip, Samuel and McConn showed up. CovenantD, Jeff Fenstermacher and Fading Light are more recent, but have made good contributions. I'm sorry if I missed anyone out. Things have been really busy since Wang yelled at Hu and Bush at the  White House press conference, but that should settle down in a few days. Limiting edits, unfortunately, would take a lot more work than it sounds, we'd literally have to rewrite the foundation policies of Wikipedia to do that. --Fire Star 05:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should there be a Project:Falun Gong? 

message: A section like this shouldn't be weighted at the begininning of the article. However, if we broaden it under the heading "Organization and Financial Aspects" it may become more appropriate in this place. I think it would be better after the section on teachings though, since they are what Falun Gong is. Also, we should refrain from using the term "The Falun Gong". Practitioners do not recognize this title. We can instead use "Falun Gong" or "Falun Gong practitioners". In the case of this heading I don't it's necessary to use either, as in my suggestion. Mcconn 06:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not so much interested in the content of this article, as I am in the organization of it, or rather the lack thereof. I would agree that placing a discussion of finances at the top of an article on a religion (or quasi-religion as the introductory paragraph puts it) is improper. As for overall organization, I am fond of the structure of the Scientology entry. A matching order with current content would be along these lines: Beliefs & Teachings, Origins, Theoretical Background, and then Financial and Business Aspects. That would leave "Cultivation of Body and Mind" in an awkward position, however, and possibly place the criticism section too low for some people's tastes (though I don't think criticism should be the focus of an article, and is right to be a little lower than it already is). I'm not going to make any corresponding edits, as I don't want to be immediately labeled as supporting one side or the other. Opinions? --Philodespotos 08:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that Finanical aspects should be after Teaching. As far as Cultivation, isn't that part of the Teaching section logically? I don't understand why there's a new heading for that section when it seems to be part of Fulan Gong teachings. CovenantD 14:57, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Financial and business aspects of the Falun Gong 

message: Is Chinese Communism truly in a deadly struggle with Falun Gong, as we are led to believe, or is the similarity between Falun Gong's supremacist values and Chinese government abuses of Human Rights all too redolent of something else entirely? Etaonsh 12:23, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conflict between Falun Gong and Chinese Communism unconvincing? 

message: I feel that the promotion of an ideology of racist separate development smacks of a racism which is illegal here in Europe, let alone Communist China. I accept that Europe isn't always any more effective at enforcing such laws than the People's Republic - but can we 'call a spade a spade,' please? Etaonsh 12:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Could we remove 'alleged' from 'alleged illegal activities', please? 

message: "A Chinese Newspaper" is not a credible source. We must take into consideration the fact that there is Goverment Crackdown on Falun Gong and Media in Mainland China is tightly controlled by the state. Chinese Newspapers have made really absurd claims on Falun Gong.
Dilip rajeev 13:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Etaonsh, did you know that interracial marriages (especially between Chinese and Caucasian spouses) are probably more common among practitioners than society in general? Saying that people of different races or nations have their own gods doesn't contradict with anything we know about ancient mythologies. Falun Gong has nothing to do with fascism, and it has never put forth any requirements for people in ordinary society. ---88.192.40.47 16:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: The racism is all there in the teachings, as well as the idea that inter-racial people have created an enormous problem (they don't have a place in one of Li's segregated paradises...the gods don't know what to do with them).  The reason practitioners can point to examples of their own who are inter-racial is that Li has cleverly offered an exception clause.  He says that if you are an inter-racial person, he will deal with your problem on an individual basis and find a resolution. Li does the same thing with what categories of people will get eliminiated in his Fa-rectification.  While it's clear that homosexuals are high on the priority list, he has most recently stated that even "bad people" can avoid being eliminated (in the case of homosexuals this process is more slow and painful than the standard elimniation)providing they side with him on his war against the "evil"  and "wicked"  Chinese Communist Party.  Thus Falun Gong is totalitarian, racist and homophobic in it's overall approach, but pragmatic when it comes to gaining and keeping recruits for its political agenda.  As cynical and manipulative as this is, practitioners don't see it as such.   
--Tomananda 19:16, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, according to Li the existence of interracial people has caused an enormous problem because the gods don't know what paradise they belong to. That's a fair and accurate summary of the teachings. Li doesn't blame the interracial couple for this "problem" (his word), but he does blame the aliens who have been working to separate people from their gods.  It all follows in Li's logic.  And concerning Li versus the CCP on homosexuality, there is a big difference.  Homosexuality is no longer considered a mental illness by the CCP, nor is it illegal.  Although the CCP has many faults in the human rights area, it is far ahead of Li on acceptance of homosexuality as a variant within the category of human sexuality. As a gay person, I would fear for my life more living under a Li Hongzhi dictatorship than a CCP one because Li has repeatedly denied my very humanity.  That doesn't mean that Li would intentionally sanction violence against gays, but by teaching that gays are not human, have dark hearts turning demonic, etc. he would create a climate which would enourage others to act out against gays.  The FG practitioners have been very duplicit about this issue.  If you are persistent with them in private conversations you discover they all believe this stuff, but at the same time they try to conceal it from the public domain. Hence the importance of reporting the truth in this article. --Tomananda 21:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Hi, I'm sorry, but the article is temporarily locked at this point so that we may discuss a way for all of us to be satisfied with this article. The protected page isn't an endorsed page, it is just accidentally where we were in the revert war when another admin locked it. There has been too much attention paid to the article and not enough to each other, and it was getting worse instead of better. I have been editing this article steadily for over two years, so it would be a conflict of interest for me to exercise administrator functions here. --Fire Star 15:41, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concern Regarding Credibility of Source 

message: Samuel,
I was going through the edit History. I am sorry but Vandalism is the only word I can find to describe what you have been doing. We all have a POV but remember that this is an encyclopaedia article. You have repeatedly ignored discussion on the talk page. Repeatedly deleted content from the article including whole sections, The Tiananmen Square Video Gif( repeatedly - inspite of other editors asking you not to ); Content from Organ Transplants section, Deleted the whole awards and Recognitions section, New York times figure on the number of practitioners, relevant content from several sections and much more and ignored repeated requests from other editors to stop vandalizing the article. Please go through your own edits over the past three days. 
Despite editors repeatedly pointing out that the Epoch Times is an Independent News Agency, You kept Introducing a section saying "Major Publications of Falun Gong" -- in which you say Epoch times is run by Falun Gong. The above mentioned are just a part of what you have deleted.
Dilip rajeev 18:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is locked and we're discussing it here now. There's a proposal to start over. How vote ye? CovenantD 18:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: We can discuss individual edits once we agree on the proposal to start again. One step at a time.... CovenantD 19:02, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: * Dilip rajeev you are the one who has deleted many sections, concealed your masters’ statements and rewrote the contents of many sections. You should point the finger of vandalism to yourself.  I initiated a dialogue here when deleting one section, in contrast, you deleted many sections and content that don’t suit your taste without any concern for the people who wrote them.  Yes, I have reverted your POVs many times in defending four sections that I care about.  You even deleted your Master’s own statements.  Are you so ashamed of his words?  The Tiananmen Square Video Gif is a Falun Gong propaganda, a POV that should not be included.  The Awards and recognitions section was restored by me at this time 00:33, 23 April 2006.  It was again deleted by presumably an embarrassed practitioner. Dilip rajeev your provocative editing is the cause of the lock on the page.  
--Samuel Luo 19:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't make the rest of us watch your fighting, you two. If you must continue with the back-and-forth accusations, please take it to your talk pages and let the rest of us move forward. CovenantD 19:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: * I proposed solution to the problem here; my intention is to find a common ground. But when being attacked I must defend myself. 
--Samuel Luo 19:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We need to put aside personal animosity. Dilip, calling edits you disagree with "vandalism" can be seen as an attack, and Samuel, when you perceive an attack, you don't actually have to defend yourself. Consensus will defend you, if you have a defensible point. If we have points to raise, we should raise them and ask opinions, then the opinions should be considered and discussed calmly. I know it is easy for me to say, and it doesn't always seem like it works, but we have to give it a chance or the article will stay locked for a long time. --Fire Star 21:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concerns on Samuel's Edits 

message: * Hi, everybody, thanks for your reply.
* 1. I did't know there is a sequence. I thought I should insert my words right after the words I would reply to.:) Sorry. Maybe this time my sequence is wrong again. I am willing to move.
* 2. Whether the allegation on the Sujiatun site is true or not, as I have said, the evidence is probably relocated three weeks after the allegation. Three weeks is ridiculouly long for a state to respond to such serious matter. It would be surprising to find any evidence from a guided tour by the suspected criminals/or criminal-affiliated authorities, right? That is why a third party, INDEPENDENT investigation is required ASAP. No evidence from just one tour does not mean no crime. I would expect, after all evidence is killed, the CCP regime may open all camps and beautify them to let international investigators to tour. The telephone messages published online clearly indicate the organ harvesting from live Falun Gong practitioners are true . I would say, it is a very very serious matter. Each person as a human beings on this world should not be cold to this if s/he could be called a human being. At least, we would say it is still early to make a conclusion that the organ harvesting allegation is a lie. ok?
* 3. The State visit is obviously not correct, according to the US government.  I don't want to make comments on it. But it is a fact. Somebody have changed it to "Protests against Chinese president Hu, April, 2006", which I think ok. But did you revert it back to state visit?
*4. What creditable information you mean? I did not replace it. If you think I did, maybe that is a mistake. That the two witnesses went to the public is a fact. Why you are afraid of seeing that? If they are practitioners, why they had fear in the beginning and refused to go to the public? They claimed clearly they are not practitioners. Practitioners believe in "to be True, Good and Endure". How could a true practitioner said clearly they are not? I am not sure in the future whether they would decide to become Falun Gong practitoiners. But now they are not. In my understanding, a practitioner may not say something, but what s/he say must be true to their most current knowledge. Otherwise, s/he is at least not a good practitioner. If somebody claimed that they are not practitioners. Then for sure they are not practitioners at the time they claimed.
*5. As I have said, Falun Gong clearly claimed that killing or suicide is a sin.  A true practitioner will NEVER do that. It is quite ironic that when CCP slander Falun Gong, they don't even bother looking up the Falun Gong's teachings carefully. I also heard that CCP asked some criminals committed killing to claim themselves Falun Gong practitioners. Then they will not be sentenced or charged. To justifiy their persecution, they can do whatever they want. In the persecution of Falun Gong, the CCP also said "beating the Falun Gong practitioners to death is counted as their suicide". The CCP do not treat Falun Gong as basic human. 
*6. It is easy to understand this logic of CCP. You may recall that one time the previous Head-of-State Jiang, Zemin was interviewed by a reporter (I can find the citation) about that a female student was raped in a labor camp after she was involved in the "June 4th" event (1989 Tiananmen). Jiang said "She deserved it". So in CCP regime, laws serve only for governments's power, not for protecting people's rights when the two have conflicts. Once a person is labeled as an enemy, s/he lost the basic human rights. S/he could be raped/killed by policeman without any legal procedures. And this deemed natural in CCP's logic.
*7. Regarding the alleged 1,404 death cases due to not seeking medical treatment and suicide, it is easy to understand now, First, suicide is not a Falun Gong concept; As to not seeking medical treatments, the reason could be multiple. First, Falun Gong claimed that it is not used to cure illnesses just for the sake of curing illnesses. The master only purifies a genuine practitioners' body. (it is not the original wording, I could post citation later). Second, eating medicine is not prohibited in Falun Gong. The Master states the relationship of a medicine and karma. It is up to the practitioner to decide. Different practitioners have different status. Nobody is forced to do anything. I know a practitioner who eat medicine for a while. After she came to truly understand the effect of medicine. She still finished her current medicine slowly since she bought with money and did not want to waste them. But slowly with her cultivation and practice, her health became better and better. She does not bother eating medicine again.
*8. What is most bold is: Contratry to a normal war started by any country, CCP does not admit they ever "persecute" any Falun Gong practitioner. Just as they claimed they did not kill any students in the Tiananmen massacre. Whey they applied for Olympic games, they colored the grass by green pigment. I also heard they invitied reporters to visit some prisons/labor camps (such as Masanjia ) which are alledged notorious places for torture/sexual abuse to Falun Gong practitioners. They even raise deers, golden fish, play light music in the labor camps to beautify it for the reporters' visit. Of course, they will not let you find any evidence in the Sujiatun hospital tour.
*9. At the last, I would post a famous poem here to raise the awareness of the world people to the terrible state-run crime to Falun Gong practitioners.
"No man is an island, entire of itself 
every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main 
if a clod be washed away by the sea, 
Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, 
as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were 
any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind 
and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls 
it tolls for thee." 
--- John Donne
* Thanks for reading my long post. I appreciate I could be allowed to voice myself here. I am willing to improve to make my post pleasing to everyone. I wish to work together with everybody here.
Fnhddzs 20:03, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For the umpteenth time, Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 22:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Replies from Fnhddzs 

message: Right now a lot of the "critical info" against Falun Gong is sourced with western scholars, but in many cases those scholars are only quoting Communist Party sources. I have placed a question regarding this issue on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Can_a_POV_Source_be_presented_as_NPOV_if_a_neutral_person_quotes_it.3F and basically the response i got was: "Attribute the POV to those who hold it, present any opposing view points (attributing those view points as well), don't state or imply that any POV is right or wrong." and "Quotes inside another source should not be used: locate the original."
So in an effort to give orignal sources i have finally obtained a copy of: Tong, James (September 2002). An Organizational Analysis of the Falun Gong: Structure, Communications, Financing. The China Quarterly" and so i know which original sources he uses for the relevant accusations and will therefore use those original sources in the article. This should be done with the other sources (that are not original sources) as well. --Hoerth (talk) 12:04, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: They are all post-persecution Chinese Government sources, but they are not referenced as such. --Hoerth (talk) 15:20, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  not giving original source