Talk:Relationships between Jewish religious movements

message: I think that JayJG is sugar-coating the views of Haredi Judaism towards Modern Orthodox Judaism. In Judaism's Apocalyptic Horsemen Tzvee Zahavy notes the following:
:In right-wing Orthodoxy the attitude of triumphalism often is acted out in aggressive assaults on the nearest competition, the modern Orthodox and the Conservative Jews. The primary means of aggression and attack of apocalyptic Orthodoxy normally takes the form of character assassination rather than physical violence, and commonly is directed against weak and select targets....
:The modern Orthodox remain the favorite targets of apocalyptic Orthodoxy. Chaim Dov Keller provides an apt illustration of this posture, "Years ago, my sainted Rebbe, Reb Elya Meir Bloch zt"l, Telshe Rosh Yeshiva, made a remark which I vividly remember since the occasion was my own wedding: We no longer have to fear Conservatism - that is no longer the danger. Everyone knows that it is avoda zara [idolatry]. What we have to fear is Modern Orthodoxy.
:Modern Orthodoxy: An Analysis and a Response, in Reuven P. Bulka, ed., Dimensions of Orthodox Judaism, New York, 1983, p. 253 reprinted from the Jewish Observer 6, no. 8, June, 1970, pp. 3-14.
:In a recent instance a writer in the Jewish Press called Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein, son-in-law of HaRav Joseph Soloveitchik, scion of Orthodoxy, "evil" for allegedly making overtures to conservative and reform Jews. Lichtenstein, who has a Ph.D. in English from Harvard, is a favored target of the apocalyptic Orthodox, for he represents the liminal Orthodox scholar and Talmudist who has obtained a higher education.
:In May, 1987, Orthodox rabbis in Israel inspired by Rabbi Eliezer Shach, head of the Agudat Yisrael Council of Sages and mentor of the Shas party, forbade under threat of excommunication, study in a Kollel program run by a former American rabbi, a graduate of Yeshiva University, in which a woman [the venerated Orthodox biblical scholar, Nechama Leibowitz] taught. Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, ruled that the woman could continue to teach from behind a screen. Nevertheless, many students left the program as a result of the encounter with Orthodox pressure.
Historian Jonathan D. Sarna writes the following in The Future of American Orthodoxy
:The Future of American Orthodoxy
:The problem is that, in the absence of broadly respected leaders, the fault lines between modern and right-wing Orthodox Jews have deepened. In one particularly vitriolic attack, Rabbi Elya Svei, a prominent member of the right-wing Agudat Israel, characterized Yeshiva University's President Norman Lamm as "an enemy of God" - a charge that he subsequently refused to retract.  More broadly, Modern Orthodox Jews - including, recently, Senator Joseph Lieberman - have found themselves written out of Orthodoxy altogether by some right-wing critics. No wonder that Professors William B. Helmreich and Reuel Shinnar, in a recent analysis, described Modern Orthodoxy as "a movement under siege." 
Consider this excerpt from A People Divided: Judaism in Contemporary America, Jack Wertheimer, Basic Books, 1993
:An adver­tisement for an evening of denunciation and expose captures the tone of the right-wing attacks: "Hear how centrism and many of its propo­nents are breaking with masora [Jewish tradition].... Hear about their latest proposals which will encourage intermarriage through improper conversions, and how to stop them."(67)
:New groups such as the Coun­cil for Authentic Judaism, seek to "expose" prominent Orthodox lead­ers identified with the left as pagans and teachers of Christianity; they are convinced that centrism "is no longer Judaism, but another reli­gion."(68) When Rabbi Steven Riskin, the founder of one of the largest Modern Orthodox synagogues in America, embarks on a speaking tour, flyers branding him a "heretic" are posted in synagogues. (69)
:And when a member of the centrist Rabbinical Council of America wrote an Op-Ed piece in the New York Times challenging the propriety of the Lubavitcher Rebbe's intrusion into Israeli politics, he was castigated in print as an "enemy, destroyer, and devastator of Israel," harassed with anonymous telephone calls, and warned that Lubavitchers were "watching and following" him. (70) These and many other incidents make abundantly clear that the triumph of the Right has been achieved in part by coercion and intimidation.
:...The new elite religion of Orthodoxy not only writes off the folkways of traditional Jews, as well as the practices of non-Orthodox Jews who are unprepared to become baalei teshuva,(78) but it also insists that any compromise with modern culture is to be rejected as un­-Jewish and inferior. The shift to the right may also be interpreted as a symptom of deep insecurity and retreat into insularity, of fear that the corrosiveness of modern American culture will eat away at the Orthodox population just as it has sapped non-Orthodox movements. Thus, even as it revels in its success in retaining the allegiance of its youth, the Young Israel Viewpoint publishes such articles as "Why Are Young Israel Children Going Astray?" (79) And even as what was formerly Modern Orthodoxy moves to the right, a symposium is held at a Young Israel convention that poses the question: "The Lifestyles of the Modern American Orthodox Jew - Halachic Hedonism?" (80)
:Footnotes for above text
:67. "Spotlight on Centrism," an advertisement in the Jewish Week, february 9, 1990, p.39
:68. Jonathan Mark, "Modern Orthodox Rabbis Claim Assault from RCA Right Wing," p.29, Jewish Week, July 13, 1990. See also idem, "Orthodox Rabbis Disciplining 8," Jewish Week, June 7-13, 1990, p.4; and numerous letters on "The RCA Controversy," Jewish Week, July 27, 1990, p.22.
:69. Gary Rosenblatt, "Religious McCarthyism," Baltimore ,Jewish Times, November 22, 1991, p. 12.
:77. Menachem Friedman, Life Tradition and Book Tradition in the Develop­ment of Ultra-orthodox Judaism, in Judaism from Within and Without: Anthropological Perspectives, ed. Harvey Goldberg (Albany: SLINY Press, 1987), pp. 235-55.
:78. Note the observation of Norman Lamm, president of Yeshiva University: "Witness the readiness of our fellow Orthodox Jews to turn exclusivist, to the extent that psychologically, though certainly not halakhically, many of our people no longer regard non-Orthodox Jews as part of Kelal Yis­rael." Lamm, Some Comments on Centrist Orthodoxy, Tradition, Fall 1986, p. 10.
:79. Reuven Frank, Why Are Young Israel Children Going Astray? Young Israel Viewpoint, September 1984, p. 24.
:80. Young Israel Viewpoint, September-October 1988, p. 20.
While the Rabbi Bloch quote is somewhat relevant, many of the rest are not.  The criticism of Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein for allegedly making overtures to conservative and reform Jews is a criticism of him for his actions, not of all Modern Orthodoxy.  The threat of herem on a particular course is about the program allowing a woman to teach (and even then, as you point out, not universal among Haredi Rabbis); it was not a criticism of Modern Orthodoxy.  The other quotes are generally unattributed, and in any event about indiviuals.  If you want to quote prominent Haredim criticizing Modern Orthodoxy as a movement and/or philosophy, that would be valuable, but criticisms of individuals for their statements or actions aren't particularly relevant in this context. Jayjg 17:56, 15 August 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you joking? When you claim that these are criticisms only of a few individuals, and not of Modern Orthodoxy, then you are making grossly incorrect claims which mispresent Haredi Judaism. We must reject your quite unique interpretation of these facts; I know of no sociologists or historians which share your view. This article should not present our own personal interpretations. The facts are that many historians of Judaism, and Modern Orthodox Jews themselves, understand all this as clear attacks on the validity of Modern Orthodox Judaism. NPOV demands that we present the information in this way. RK 18:04, 15 August 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: In general it's probably safest to assume I am not joking.  As for the criticisms, they relate to specific actions and statements of individuals, not to the movement as a whole.  The personal interpretations are, in fact, the theses being presented around those quotes.  Now it would be perfectly reasonable to mention that a number of Modern Orthodox leaders have been criticized for various actions (e.g. women teaching Yeshiva courses), and point out that some authors feel that this indicates a criticism of the movement itself.  As always, I recommend brief summaries of the positions, rather that lengthy quotes. Jayjg 18:11, 15 August 2004 (UTC)

text: P.S. I recommend that you avoid using the royal "we" when writing (e.g. "We must reject your quite unique interpretation of these facts"), as you so often do.  Please remember that you are neither royalty, nor speaking for Wikipedia, nor even anyone but yourself. Jayjg 18:11, 15 August 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: That's valid; I agree. I am only saying that Tzvee Zahavy, Jack Wertheimer, Jonathan D. Sarna, Norman Lamm and others believe that these quotes rejection and criticism of Modern Orthodox Judaism as a whole. This article should summarize their reasoning and conclusions. RK 21:23, 15 August 2004 (UTC)

text: Trends are interesting, but please make sure that analyses are presented as theses, not as facts, and please make sure any quotes reflect the thesis being presented. Jayjg 18:13, 15 August 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: That is fine by me. RK 21:23, 15 August 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Haredi views of Modern Orthodox Judaism

message: While noone was looking, User  stalked off and opened a new front by attacking User  see Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts#User:IZAK, rather than debating the issues and facts here, User:Egfrank would rather conduct personal vendettas against editors who disagree with her. How pathetic. IZAK (talk) 04:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

message: The year given for Joseph B. Soloveitchik's can't be correct. It says it occurred in 2010,but he died in 1993. I don't know the correct year. Farside268 (talk) 17:46, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joseph B. Soloveitchik Responsum