Talk:Killian documents controversy/Archive 8

message: The Edit History for this talk page before 2007-04-11 is now here.
:I apologize for this stuff-up. I created Talk:Killian documents/Archive 7 by moving the page (which takes the edit history along), whereas previous archives were done by cut-and-paste (which leaves the edit history behind). The result is that the edit history of this discussion page prior to 11-Apr-2007 is now attached to Archive 7. Again, my apologies. CWC 11:19, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive 7, Edit History

message: :(Copied from Talk:Killian documents/Archive 7 by CWC 11:15, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Esther Kartiganer 

message: :(Copied from Talk:Killian documents/Archive 7 by Andyvphil 12:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a very good point. You're a good editor, Andyvphil — do you want to have a go at it? Cheers, CWC 13:19, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks muchly. So much need for improvement, so little time. Andyvphil 01:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Initial LACK of skepticism in MSM 

message: :(Copied from Talk:Killian documents/Archive 7 by CWC 11:15, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personal attack and [[WP:BLP]] warning 

message: I have blocked Callmebc from editing for 72 hours for various policy violations.  To other editors, my general recommendation about how to handle WP:COI is to declare affiliations in your own user space and exercise personal restraint at relevant articles.  The safest route where COI is obvious (such as an article about one's place of employment) is to post material and citations to the talk page and let uninvolved Wikipedians evaluate it for inclusion in the article.  Regards, DurovaCharge! 07:09, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sysop steps in 

message: This 1967 IBM paper, The IBM Selectric Composer - Philosophy of Composer Design, , has a genuine print sample from an IBM Selectric Composer (page 5). As an exercise in curiousity, I recreated the print sample with WordPerfect 10 (WordPerfect handles that sort of right-justified typesetting a wee bit more gracefully than Word), first with CG Times Bold, and then used JASC's "Animation Shop 3" program to animate a transition from the original in blue to a recreation in red. I then did likewise with Times New Roman and that's the current animation on the right. Full justification warps true font comparison, but the end result is kind of amusing and served as an excuse to practice creating animated GIF's and posting them here. I'm thinking now of doing the same for the memos -- as shown a little further up in my response to Phinney, recreations with Times New Roman (and Times Roman) don't overlay that accurately, especially with the the longer memos. If you do a best bit overlay, including resizing, words and individual characters drift in and out of alignment in exactly the same way as with that Selectric Composer overlay animation. The pro-forgers have maintained from the beginning that multiple recopying/refaxing was done to make the memos look old, which people like Joseph Newcomer and especially Charles Johnson then used as as excuse for why overlay experiments like Johnson's (in)famous animated "CYA" GIF, , don't work for other memos -- that supposed deliberate aging process, in some not-too-well defined way, introduced too much distortion. 
However, a close look at the misalignment shown in recreations by both Thomas Phinney,, and David Hailey ,, pretty clearly indicates that the misalignments are a bit more likely the effect of overlaying a modern digital rendition of Times (New) Roman over a version or close knock-off created with older, very likely non-digital technology. 
I won't post the memo overlays here since that would be a little bit more serious than just goofing around -- it would kinda constitute WP:OR in Wikipedia parlance. While replicatable by anyone with the appropriate software, it would nevertheless not be an easy process. 
According to the March and May, 1972 issues of the Business Machines Executive Newsletter, in  1971 IBM revenues from their MT/ST-MC/ST word processors exceeded typewriter sales, with about 3600 units being shipped monthly, and these were $7000-$9500 machines. The latest IBM model at that time was the "MC/ET" ("Mag Card/Executive"), which utilized 9-unit proportional spacing much like that of the earlier Composer model (which was introduced in 1966), producing 6 different letter widths, as well as offering automatic centering and supposedly a bunch of other features. The MC/ET unit came out in April, 1972, and was in such demand that there was a 14 week waiting period on it, as well as hurting the sales of the older Mag models. 
The point of all this, of course, being that the forgery charges were from the beginning based on widespread ignorance of common early office tech, an ignorance that the news media, mainstream-wise or otherwise, did not exactly make much of an effort, if any, to correct. Eff Why Eye. -BC aka Callmebc 15:45, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Goofing around

message: Wikipedia has a complicated sophisticated category system. To be useful (and Wikipedia's is very useful), such a system needs subcategories (ie., categories that are members of other categories). See Wikipedia:Categorization.
We have a :Category:Killian documents. It has 3 parent categories:
(1) :Category:Journalistic hoaxes
:We should not call something a journalistic hoax without good evidence that journalists were knowingly perpetrating a hoax. Since both the main CBS journalists are still alive, WP:BLP requires very good evidence. I haven't seen any such evidence in this case, so I've just removed this as a parent category.
(2) :Category:Political forgery
:The description of the "Political forgery" category certainly fits the Killian documents (emphasis added):
::This category deals with events, organizations, or people that have at some point been referred to as involving forgery for political ends or about political figures.
:That still leaves the question of whether the category is appropriately named. Categories can be renamed.
(3) :Category:United States presidential election, 2004
:Finally, an easy one.
Thus this article and its category are both now in (2) and (3) but not (1). I think this is right. Does anyone disagree?
Cheers, CWC 17:37, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't really seem to have been a "journalististic hoax"; it appears that the journalists were willing dupes, not instigators. I'd be in favor of adding it to one of the general "hoax", "document forgery", or "forgery" categories, although which of those I'm not sure of. htom 17:50, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I guess it depends on who was actually "duped" and what exactly was the "hoax," eh? As a side note, what is it with Wikipedians and their glacial response to even simple questions, if they respond at all? Gawd.... (Also a PS: ) -BC aka Callmebc 23:52, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categories 

message: A marker for a future archivist. Please put new discussion below (or in) this section. Thanks, htom 19:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see I'm not the only one still paying attention. I don't suppose you would know who's hiding behind IP 68.242.152.17, would you now? As annoying as I found the last battle, I'm not adverse to doing it again if need be. With that said, I hope things have been well with you. -BC aka Callmebc 20:03, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No idea, no desire for an edit war, either new or resumed; just hoping to make life easier for some future archivist. Personally, mostly well, except for a sprained ankle (Mom was right, don't run up carpeted stairs.) I hope you're doing well, too. htom 21:14, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  September, 2007 discussions 

message: And in regards to journalistic ethics, it's a bit debatable who/what was the worst offender: the rushed and sloppy fact checking by Mary Mapes and her crew; the right wing mediasphere, including commentators for Fox News and the National Review, spewing whatever nonsensical "evidence" they could make up and quoting whatever crackpotty "expert" they can find to smear favorite whipping boy Dan Rather and indirectly Kerry; the rest of the mainstream corporate media who apparently couldn't be bothered to have even some interns to do the most elementary research into some of the claims being made in regards to early 70's technology, the reproducibility of the memos by a modern word processor, and consistency with the DoD records and document format standards -- not too mention letting Bush and his official spokespeople avoid commenting on the veracity of the memos despite Bush obviously knowing if they were true or not; or CBS News in particular for deciding to scapegoat and facesave rather (so to speak) than use their considerable resources to get to the bottom of it all. -BC aka Callmebc 13:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not debatable at all. CBS went ahead with a hit-piece in the middle of an election that used copies of memos that were obtained from a known crackpot. A known crackpot that they outrageously declared was an "unimpeachable source." They didn't bother to call the guy Burkett said he got them from (which would have exposed his lie instantly). They didn't bother to try to get the originals, so authentication could actually be possible. None of their experts vouched for the authenticity of the memos. They said the exact opposite, that they couldn't authenticate them. But they went ahead with the piece, anyway. Utterly disgraceful. Mary Mapes and Dan Rather are a disgrace. 74.77.180.178 18:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your absolutely clueless, wrongheaded yet firmly believed comments are actually best evidence for how journalism took a vacation during the memos mess. Burkett was not a "known crackpot" -- he served for 28 years in the National Guard and there is nothing in his history to indicate that he was ever more than a guy who tried to do the right thing. He was merely swiftboated and you were suckered. -BC aka Callmebc 19:55, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow. You don't know what you're talking about. Are you really unaware of Bill Burkett's continually changing stories about Bush's service records? Why do you think everyone laughed when he was outed as CBS's "unimpeachable source"? The man is a raving loon. He claimed to overhear several conversations about sanitizing Bush's records. He claimed to find Bush's records in trash bins, changing his story about what documents he saw in the trash several times. He claimed he witnessed Bush's records being destroyed in a facility where they weren't kept. Not even in the right state. Boy, he sure appears to end up in the right place at the right time an awful lot. Funny how it's always the same guy seeing these things and hearing these things. What are the odds, I wonder? Then, his story hilariously morphed into him being the one "ordered" to sanitize Bush's record, and that when he refused, he was sent to Panama. Yeah, he actually said that. Then he backtracked, saying, "That was not accurate, that was overstated." He went on rants saying that Bush personally held up his medical benefits. He posted on Democratic websites that "down and dirty" tactics to keep Bush from getting reelected were justified. He lamented not being able to find damning Killian memos mere weeks before they supposedly dropped into his lap like manna from heaven. Then he claimed that he and others had "reassembled" Killian's memos. He actually said that - "reassembled." This guy, this raving loon, this known liar, crackpot and frothing Bush hater was the source for the Killian memos. The only source. CBS went ahead with a hit piece on a president in the middle of a reelection campaign based solely on the word of someone who is the complete opposite of a credible source. They went ahead with this piece with memos that weren't even originals. Memos full of errors, even containing Army terms like "billet." And when they ask Burkett where the originals are, he says, "Oh, uh... I burned them." "Well," CBS said, "that's good enough for us!" They aired their horribly "sourced" hit piece. Dan Rather and Mary Mapes are a disgrace. An utter disgrace to the field of journalism. And here you are, trying to claim that these pathetic documents from this utterly pathetic man are genuine. What a joke. 74.77.180.178 06:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Journalistic Ethics 

message: I'm getting a little tired of your slandering, utterly clueless, utterly factless, crackpotted nonsense. You have consistently demonstrated that you don't have one friggin clue about Burkett, his history, his motives, the circumstances surrounding the CBS story, what the DoD records say about Bush's service regardless of the memos, how the contents of the memos match up with official records, the stonewalling by the Pentagon, what are proper common military documents formats, what is proper military lingo, what was common early 70's office technology and its capabilities, how reproducable -- or not --  are the memos with a modern word processor, and so on and so forth. So far you've only been spouting every stupid, uninformed, and laughably wrong cliche regurgitated endlessly by right wing bloggers regarding the memos. Not to mention how all of your comments and smears regarding Mapes, Dan Rather and Burkett, all without a shred of real evidence, violate a pile of Wikipedia protocols. You've shown that you have about as much business contributing to this wiki as you would to the one on Quantum Mechanics. I have other distractions right now, so there will be another day or so of grace before I start removing the more unsubstantiated (and moronic) edits from the main article. Either finally get real, responsible and serious or else go 'way. Shoo. -BC aka Callmebc 14:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I just destroyed your pathetic argument. And it was fun. Ciao. 74.77.222.188 23:55, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Listen Up 

message: Please read slowly and carefully:
 This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Killian documents article.
      This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
This means that even if you're 100% certain that Mapes is the daughter of Satan because some guy named WhatsTheFrequencyMapes said so in a post at Little Green Footballs and that, of course, it makes total  sense and that you would have to believe in unicorns not to see the obvious logic & evidence in it, it still doesn't belong here. The purpose of the Talk page is to discuss improvements to the main article, and not as a sounding board for deranged conspiracy theories, especially so when done without even a teensy, weensy bit of effort to supply even marginally credible references.
:Unlike you, we have plenty of credible references, ranging from the Washington Post to CNN to USA Today and so on. We also have Bill Burket's own words, which are the most damaging of all. 74.77.222.188 03:40, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course they aren't forgeries, because, get this: they came from the DoD not Bill freaking Burkett. 74.77.222.188 03:40, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

text: We've been over this. Find the 1972 technology that produced those memos. No one has been able to do it. There's a $50,000 reward in it for you. Happy hunting. See if you can bag a unicorn, too, while you're at it. 74.77.222.188 03:40, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

text: But it's not referred to as such in TANG documents and memos. Except for the Bill Burkett memos. It's not that exceptions can't be found here and there in the official record. It's the absurd idea that all the exceptions would be found in one place: Those six laughable forgeries provided by Bill Burkett. Find a Killian memo from the official record where he writes "grp" instead of "gp" or "OETR" instead of "OER". You won't be able to. They don't exist. Only in those six pathetic forgeries provided by Bill Burkett. 74.77.222.188 03:40, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Nice try, BC, but you didn't delete that entire discussion over and over again because you came off so well. You deleted it because you lost the argument. Badly. So you tried to excise it from the record. Everyone, read the argument under the Proof? headline and the following one under the Journalistic Ethics headline to see what BC so desperately didn't want you to see. He wanted you to not see it so badly that he deleted it three times. At least. Now that's three strikes, bud. I'd say you were out, but you were never on to begin with. Ciao. 74.77.222.188 03:40, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  CallmeBc's position 

message: One has evidence supporting the allegation and one does not. Mary Mapes had contact with the John Kerry campaign about the progress of the story and put them in touch with Bill Burkett. That's a fact. That's clear evidence of Mary Mapes aiding a political campaign. The assertion that Karl Rove orchestrated the forged documents ruse in order to undercut attacks on Bush's military service has no evidence whatsoever. There is no sound reason to put forward these two theories in the lead as if they are equally credible. Until I see that sound reason, I'll keep making the change to reflect the crucial difference in the two theories.74.77.208.52 00:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your personal hypthesis is hardly relevant. -BC aka Callmebc 04:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

text: We don't report theories according to editors' judgment of their credibility.  We report what's notable.  Prominent people (a U.S. Congressman and a DNC Chair) have voiced the Rove theory.  That makes it notable. JamesMLane t c 04:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I'm not suggesting excising it. I'm only referring to mentioning that those "prominent people" offered no evidence to support their claims, unlike those suggesting political bias at CBS. The lead previously only mentioned the two theories, making no distinction in terms of supporting evidence.74.77.208.52 04:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  And your offering your own judgement as being a valid arbitrator, but your comments and edits indicate you have very little understanding of the subject matter aside from what you've obviously read in right wing sources. -BC aka Callmebc 04:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, right wing sources like USA Today and CNN. 74.77.208.52 05:23, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Left-leaning political bias vs. Karl Rove subterfuge

message: Alrighty then, enough with dealing with "74.77.208.52's" little fantasies, as amusing as that might be, and not just because that sort of insult-exchanging argument is against the Wikipedia policy of etiquette. I hate to be the one to point out rules of any sort, but I was reminded of how Wikipedia does have a few rules that make sense:
1) WP:NPOV Neutral point of view -- meaning that just because you personally think CBS was involved in a conspiracy and that Bill Burkett was a deranged liar doesn't exactly make it so, however firmly convinced you are, especially without any sort of supporting evidence from reliable sources. 
2) Beware of playing fast and loose with the biographies of living persons -- meaning that just because your teddy bear told you that Dan Rather is evil again doesn't make it so. Generally speaking, smearing a person who is still around, especially without a shred of actual, verifiable evidence is a big no-no.
3) Verifiability -- research is your friend, and also it's in very poor form to add information in article edits, most especially major ones, without providing a backing reference via, again, reliable sources. Stuff you heard at a bar, overheard on a bus, discussed in a blog and/or such are not considered reliable sources.
4) Consensus -- meaning that before you decide to add/delete/change key aspects of an article, you should discuss the changes in the talk page first. However firmly you believe that, say, global warming is a vast left wing hoax or that Martian unicorns were behind the Killian memos conspiracy, there may be others who do not share those views, and they may actually even have supporting evidence for their side.
5) WP:DISRUPT Disruptive editing -- meaning that you shouldn't ignore evidence, logic, well-reasoned objections and such just because they don't fit in with your beliefs about what information should be put into the article. Tendentious editing just makes you a nuisance, if not an outright vandal, that will only likely get you blocked.
 
Please bear these basic elements in mind and not only will this help in making a useful, enlightening article, but it will help us all just get along. -BC aka aka Callmebc 05:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improving the article 

message: Callmebc vandalized this talk page on at least three occasions (now six and counting), excising arguments that didn't go his/her way. They're now back under their headers of Proof? and Journalistic Ethics. Callmebc has a website here, where it's claimed that it's impossible for the Killian documents to be forgeries. Impossible. The mental gymnastics gone through to arrive at such a conclusion are mind-bendingly humorous, with nothing more hilarious than BC's final conclusion. BC claims that Killian must have been so upset over George W. Bush that he sought legal counsel and thus went to a law office to type out the infamous Bill Burkett memos. According to BC, that's the only place Killian could have likely found the technology that typed those memos. Of course, Killian's own wife has no knowledge of her husband being upset about Bush in the least, let alone being so upset that he went to a lawyer. In fact, she has the opposite recollection: that Killian was happy with Bush's performance under his command. But BC is undeterred.
Now, I just finished a long stint in the military, including in the Reserves. The idea that a Lt Col in the Air National Guard would go to a lawyer over such a scenario is absurd to the extreme. Only someone with zero understanding of the military environment and protocols would suggest such a ludicrous scenario. That's why it's BC's thesis. A thesis so absurd that I can destroy it with one link. Does that look like a memo requiring a trip to a law office? Do any of them? Do you think Killian made trips to a law office from February of 1972 and on into 1973 to type up six memos on their high-falutin' equipment? Trips that no one who actually worked with Killian has ever suggested took place? BC even ridiculously suggests that Killian may have transcribed all of the memos on the same day in 1973 for clarity. Yeah, for clarity. That's actually suggested on BC's website. I wonder if BC even realizes that that would mean there's two sets of originals out there that have never been found.
BC, of course, has zero evidence that Killian did something so absurd. The entire scenario is a BC fabrication. Pure speculation. BC just knows that that's the only way those memos could possibly have been typed by Killian. He invents a legal office, a lawyer, and a secret file, the existences of which have been found by no one, not even by the likes of CBS, Dan Rather and Mary Mapes, who happen to have the most obvious reasons to want such an absurd scenario to be true. That's BC's thesis. That's the only way the memos can be genuine. So, the most passionate defense of the memos' veracity to date ends up merely reinforcing how outrageously and obviously phony they are. Good work, BC. Oh, and if you're curious as to the motivations of BC in creating that website, just look at the very bottom of it. It's the very picture of anti-impartiality. 74.77.222.188 06:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, please read the masthead, as well as WP:NPA, WP:TPG and WP:CIV for starters. You have demonstrated zero interest in "improving" the talk page -- you just keep going into factless tirades against Mapes, Rather and CBS without offering a shred of evidence to support any of your contentions, while ignoring, denigrating, and deliberately confusing any and all sourced refs on my part refuting your "points" one by one or en mass. You should also perhaps read WP:NOT#SOAP. You keep up this unhelpful, if not malicious behavior and I will see about having you blocked. I've tried taking just three of your contentions to demonstrate the shortcomings of your "Proof," and your response shows quite clearly that you are here just to be an obstruction and nothing else. It's likewise quite clear who are the real vandal(s) here. -BC aka Callmebc 17:33, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not to mention WP:BLP in regards to personal attacks and smears of living people, especially in regards to Mary Mapes and Bill Burkett. While I personally think the evidence clearly shows George Bush to be a, well.... whatever, I am respectful enough of Wikipedia policies to not express him in that way, regardless of how large a pile of refs I could round up to support it, even in the Talk page, no matter how painfully tempting it may be.... -BC aka Callmebc 19:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I haven't violated BLP. Bill Burkett said himself that he lied to CBS about the origin of the memos. The conduct of Mary Mapes and Dan Rather in the vetting of their hit piece on Bush has been rightly described as journalistically disgraceful. 74.77.222.188 20:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, I for one will formally ask for 74.77.222.188 to be blocked. His edits speak for themselves, I do believe -- it's really pointless to even try to address any of his posts -BC aka Callmebc 20:32, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You should be blocked for your repeated vandalism of this talk page. I haven't removed a single word you've typed here. You have repeatedly deleted my contributions to this talk page because they were discussions  with you that you lost. 74.77.222.188 20:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism of the Talk Page

message: : Again, please read the masthead, as well as WP:NPA, WP:TPG and WP:CIV for starters. You have demonstrated zero interest in "improving" the talk page -- you just keep going into factless tirades against Mapes, Rather and CBS without offering a shred of evidence to support any of your contentions, while ignoring, denigrating, and deliberately confusing any and all sourced refs on my part refuting your "points" one by one or en mass. You should also perhaps read WP:NOT#SOAP. You keep up this unhelpful, if not malicious behavior and I will see about having you blocked. I've tried taking just three of your contentions to demonstrate the shortcomings of your "Proof," and your response shows quite clearly that you are here just to be an obstruction and nothing else. It's likewise quite clear who are the real vandal(s) here. -BC aka Callmebc 17:33, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not to mention WP:BLP in regards to personal attacks and smears of living people, especially in regards to Mary Mapes and Bill Burkett. While I personally think the evidence clearly shows George Bush to be a, well.... whatever, I am respectful enough of Wikipedia policies to not express him in that way, regardless of how large a pile of refs I could round up to support it, even in the Talk page, no matter how painfully tempting it may be.... -BC aka Callmebc 19:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't violated BLP. Bill Burkett said himself that he lied to CBS about the origin of the memos. The conduct of Mary Mapes and Dan Rather in the vetting of their hit piece on Bush has been rightly described as journalistically disgraceful. 74.77.222.188 20:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, I for one will formally ask for 74.77.222.188 to be blocked. His edits speak for themselves, I do believe -- it's really pointless to even try to address any of his posts -BC aka Callmebc 20:32, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You should be blocked for your repeated vandalism of this talk page. I haven't removed a single word you've typed here. You have repeatedly deleted my contributions to this talk page because they were discussions  with you that you lost. 74.77.222.188 20:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "74.77.222.188's" Agenda and Behavior