Talk:Kunrei-shiki romanization

message: I tried to import the design in the Hepburn article to the Kunrei article and to add the non-standard Extended Kunrei characters in. As there are some things I don't know, I'm putting this on the talk page so this can be corrected.
I'm not sure how "va, ve, vi" are handled, nor am I sure how "we" and "wi" are handled.
===Features of Kunrei-shiki romanization===
====Particles====
*When he へ is used as a particle it is written e, not he (as in Nippon-shiki).
*When ha は is used as a particle it is written wa, not ha.
*When wo を is used as a particle it is written o, not wo.
====Long vowels====
*Long vowels are indicated by a circumflex, for example long o is written ô.
====Other====
* Syllabic n ん is written as n before consonants but as n' before vowels and y.
* Geminate consonants are marked by doubling the consonant following the っ.
* The first letter in a sentence, and all proper nouns, are capitalized.
* ISO 3602 has the strict form, see Nihon-shiki.
===Kunrei-shiki romanization charts===
====For hiragana====
あ a      	い i      	う u 	え e      	お o      	(ya)                	(yu)                	(yo)
                	                	           	                	                	                    	                    	
か ka     	き ki     	く ku	け ke     	こ ko     	きゃ kya	きゅ kyu	きょ kyo
さ sa     	し si     	す su	せ se     	そ so     	しゃ sya	しゅ syu	しょ syo
た ta     	ち ti     	つ tu	て te     	と to     	ちゃ tya	ちゅ tyu	ちょ tyo
な na     	に ni     	ぬ nu	ね ne     	の no     	にゃ nya	にゅ nyu	にょ nyo
は ha     	ひ hi     	ふ hu	へ he     	ほ ho     	ひゃ hya	ひゅ hyu	ひょ hyo
ま ma     	み mi     	む mu	め me     	も mo     	みゃ mya	みゅ myu	みょ myo
や ya     	                	ゆ yu	                	よ yo     	                    	                    	
ら ra     	り ri     	る ru	れ re     	ろ ro     	りゃ rya	りゅ ryu	りょ ryo
わ wa	ゐ wi	           	ゑ we	を wo	                    	                    	
                	                	           	                	ん n      	                    	                    	
                	                	           	                	                	                    	                    	
が ga     	ぎ gi     	ぐ gu	げ ge     	ご go     	ぎゃ gya	ぎゅ gyu	ぎょ gyo
ざ za     	じ zi     	ず zu	ぜ ze     	ぞ zo     	じゃ zya	じゅ zyu	じょ zyo
だ da     	ぢ zi     	づ zu	で de     	ど do     	                    	                    	
ば ba     	び bi     	ぶ bu	べ be     	ぼ bo     	びゃ bya	びゅ byu	びょ byo
ぱ pa     	ぴ pi     	ぷ pu	ぺ pe     	ぽ po     	ぴゃ pya	ぴゅ pyu	ぴょ pyo
The characters in red are obsolete in modern Japanese.
====For standard katakana====
ア a 	イ i 	ウ u 	エ e 	オ o 	                         	                         	
カ ka	キ ki	ク ku	ケ ke	コ ko	キャ kya	キュ kyu	キョ kyo
サ sa	シ si	ス su	セ se	ソ so	シャ sya	シュ syu	ショ syo
タ ta	チ ti	ツ tu	テ te	ト to	チャ tya	チュ tyu	チョ tyo
ナ na	ニ ni	ヌ nu	ネ ne	ノ no	ニャ nya	ニュ nyu	ニョ nyo
ハ ha	ヒ hi	フ hu	ヘ he	ホ ho	ヒャ hya	ヒュ hyu	ヒョ hyo
マ ma	ミ mi	ム mu	メ me	モ mo	ミャ mya	ミュ myu	ミョ myo
ヤ ya	                	ユ yu	                	ヨ yo	                         	                         	
ラ ra	リ ri	ル ru	レ re	ロ ro	リャ rya	リュ ryu	リョ ryo
ワ wa	ヰ wi	                	ヱ we	ヲ wo	                         	                         	
                	                	                	                	ン n 	                         	                         	
ガ ga	ギ gi	グ gu	ゲ ge	ゴ go	ギャ gya	ギュ gyu	ギョ gyo
ザ za	ジ zi	ズ zu	ゼ ze	ゾ zo	ジャ zya	ジュ zyu	ジョ zyo
ダ da	ヂ zi	ヅ zu	デ de	ド do	                         	                         	
バ ba	ビ bi	ブ bu	ベ be	ボ bo	ビャ bya	ビュ byu	ビョ byo
パ pa	ピ pi	プ pu	ペ pe	ポ po	ピャ pya	ピュ pyu	ピョ pyo
The characters in red are obsolete in modern Japanese.
====For extended katakana====
These are used mainly to represent the sounds in words in other languages.  Most of these are not formally standardized and some are very rarely used.
                         	                               	                          	イェ ye 	
                         	ウィ wi       	                          	ウェ we 	ウォ wo
ヴァ va 	ヴィ vi       	ヴ vu          	ヴェ ve 	ヴォ vo
                         	                               	                          	シェ sye	
                         	                               	                          	ジェ zye	
                         	                               	                          	チェ tye	
                         	ティ t'i or ti	トゥ tu  	                         	
                         	                               	テュ tyu 	                         	
                         	ディ di       	ドゥ du  	                         	
                         	                               	デュ dyu 	                         	
ツァ twa	ツィ twi      	                          	ツェ twe	ツォ two
ファ hwa	フィ hwi      	                          	フェ hwe	フォ hwo
                         	                               	フュ hwyu	                         	
(Also, フョ>hwyo)
WhisperToMe 00:07, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Redoing the kana chart

message: ====For hiragana====
あ a      	い i      	う u 	え e      	お o      	(ya)                	(yu)                	(yo)
                	                	           	                	                	                    	                    	
か ka     	き ki     	く ku	け ke     	こ ko     	きゃ kya	きゅ kyu	きょ kyo
さ sa     	し si     	す su	せ se     	そ so     	しゃ sya	しゅ syu	しょ syo
た ta     	ち ti     	つ tu	て te     	と to     	ちゃ tya	ちゅ tyu	ちょ tyo
な na     	に ni     	ぬ nu	ね ne     	の no     	にゃ nya	にゅ nyu	にょ nyo
は ha     	ひ hi     	ふ hu	へ he     	ほ ho     	ひゃ hya	ひゅ hyu	ひょ hyo
ま ma     	み mi     	む mu	め me     	も mo     	みゃ mya	みゅ myu	みょ myo
や ya     	                	ゆ yu	                	よ yo     	                    	                    	
ら ra     	り ri     	る ru	れ re     	ろ ro     	りゃ rya	りゅ ryu	りょ ryo
わ wa	ゐ wi	           	ゑ we	を wo	                    	                    	
                	                	           	                	ん n      	                    	                    	
                	                	           	                	                	                    	                    	
が ga     	ぎ gi     	ぐ gu	げ ge     	ご go     	ぎゃ gya	ぎゅ gyu	ぎょ gyo
ざ za     	じ zi     	ず zu	ぜ ze     	ぞ zo     	じゃ zya	じゅ zyu	じょ zyo
だ da     	ぢ zi     	づ zu	で de     	ど do     	                    	                    	
ば ba     	び bi     	ぶ bu	べ be     	ぼ bo     	びゃ bya	びゅ byu	びょ byo
ぱ pa     	ぴ pi     	ぷ pu	ぺ pe     	ぽ po     	ぴゃ pya	ぴゅ pyu	ぴょ pyo
The characters in red are obsolete in modern Japanese.
====For standard katakana====
ア a 	イ i 	ウ u 	エ e 	オ o 	                         	                         	
カ ka	キ ki	ク ku	ケ ke	コ ko	キャ kya	キュ kyu	キョ kyo
サ sa	シ si	ス su	セ se	ソ so	シャ sya	シュ syu	ショ syo
タ ta	チ ti	ツ tu	テ te	ト to	チャ tya	チュ tyu	チョ tyo
ナ na	ニ ni	ヌ nu	ネ ne	ノ no	ニャ nya	ニュ nyu	ニョ nyo
ハ ha	ヒ hi	フ hu	ヘ he	ホ ho	ヒャ hya	ヒュ hyu	ヒョ hyo
マ ma	ミ mi	ム mu	メ me	モ mo	ミャ mya	ミュ myu	ミョ myo
ヤ ya	                	ユ yu	                	ヨ yo	                         	                         	
ラ ra	リ ri	ル ru	レ re	ロ ro	リャ rya	リュ ryu	リョ ryo
ワ wa	ヰ wi	                	ヱ we	ヲ wo	                         	                         	
                	                	                	                	ン n 	                         	                         	
ガ ga	ギ gi	グ gu	ゲ ge	ゴ go	ギャ gya	ギュ gyu	ギョ gyo
ザ za	ジ zi	ズ zu	ゼ ze	ゾ zo	ジャ zya	ジュ zyu	ジョ zyo
ダ da	ヂ zi	ヅ zu	デ de	ド do	                         	                         	
バ ba	ビ bi	ブ bu	ベ be	ボ bo	ビャ bya	ビュ byu	ビョ byo
パ pa	ピ pi	プ pu	ペ pe	ポ po	ピャ pya	ピュ pyu	ピョ pyo
The characters in red are obsolete in modern Japanese.
====For extended katakana====
These are used mainly to represent the sounds in words in other languages.  Most of these are not formally standardized and some are very rarely used.
                         	                               	                          	イェ ye 	
                         	ウィ wi       	                          	ウェ we 	ウォ wo
ヴァ va 	ヴィ vi       	ヴ vu          	ヴェ ve 	ヴォ vo
                         	                               	                          	シェ sye	
                         	                               	                          	ジェ zye	
                         	                               	                          	チェ tye	
                         	ティ t'i or ti	トゥ tu  	                         	
                         	                               	テュ tyu 	                         	
                         	ディ di       	ドゥ du  	                         	
                         	                               	デュ dyu 	                         	
ツァ twa	ツィ twi      	                          	ツェ twe	ツォ two
ファ hwa	フィ hwi      	                          	フェ hwe	フォ hwo
                         	                               	フュ hwyu	                         	
(Also, フョ>hwyo)
WhisperToMe 00:07, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Kunrei-shiki romanization charts

message: These are used mainly to represent the sounds in words in other languages.  Most of these are not formally standardized and some are very rarely used.
                         	                               	                          	イェ ye 	
                         	ウィ wi       	                          	ウェ we 	ウォ wo
ヴァ va 	ヴィ vi       	ヴ vu          	ヴェ ve 	ヴォ vo
                         	                               	                          	シェ sye	
                         	                               	                          	ジェ zye	
                         	                               	                          	チェ tye	
                         	ティ t'i or ti	トゥ tu  	                         	
                         	                               	テュ tyu 	                         	
                         	ディ di       	ドゥ du  	                         	
                         	                               	デュ dyu 	                         	
ツァ twa	ツィ twi      	                          	ツェ twe	ツォ two
ファ hwa	フィ hwi      	                          	フェ hwe	フォ hwo
                         	                               	フュ hwyu	                         	
(Also, フョ>hwyo)
WhisperToMe 00:07, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: For extended [[katakana]]

message: This passage is problematic: "Kunrei-shiki is sometimes known as the Monbushō system in English, because it was until relatively recently taught in the Monbushō-approved elementary school curriculum." (my italics). So far I have seen no proof that Monbusho actually abandoned kunrei. Please present actual fact, such as official policy documents issued by the ministry. -Himasaram 16:34, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is dispute regarding fact, not point of view. Removing POV template.  — Gwalla | Talk 22:03, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: I added a Disputed template instead. And yes, it has been discussed before, but needs to be discussed further. Until there are proof of the opposite, the article should say that learning kunrei-shiki is part of the Monbusho curriculum. -Himasaram 09:47, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Of course I read it. And the only proof you've published so far, is a removed photo of a page of a textbook. You haven't even proved that that book actually is used in shools following the Monbusho curriculum. The rest are just your opinions, Exploding Boy. -Himasaram 21:42, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: I have verified that the Kunrei system is the system taught in Japanese elementary schools. This is according to a Kumon publication published in 2004. For those who don't know, Kumon is a major publisher of educational materials for Japanese children, and is extremely unlikely to be misinformed on this matter. See the photos on the right. For those who can't read the Japanese caption, please let me know and I'll translate it. I hope this discussion will be ended now with good grace. Thanks to all contributors to the article and the discussion. --DannyWilde 06:48, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I commend your efforts, but I'm afraid you have verified that kunrei is a system taught to Japanese schoolchildren, while the dispute is whether kunrei is the Monbusho-approved system.  The only ways to get to a final resolution on this are to a) dig up the official Monbusho curricula stating that kunrei is the One True Romaji (proof by fiat), or b) find a Monbusho-approved schoolbook that uses Hepburn (disproof by counterexample).  Kumon is a juku, meaning it exists outside the formal school system (albeit aimed at helping students succeed in it), and I don't think its materials have the Monbusho seal of approval.  Jpatokal 09:48, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you read the caption on the Kumon poster? The poster, published in 2004, clearly states that the Kunrei system is taught in elementary schools.  Whether that poster is approved by Monbusho has nothing to do with the issue. Kumon is hardly likely to make a mistake about this. By the way, one of the two photos is a Kumon one, the other one is published by another company. --DannyWilde 02:37, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it says () no naka wa shougakkou de tsukau(?) kakikata desu, or as you say, the "Kunrei system is taught in elementary schools".  What is being disputed, and what is still disputed, is whether Kunrei is the only system taught in schools. Jpatokal 08:37, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I see the photo is more blurred than I'd imagined. It says "narau" 習う. My photographic skills are in need of improvement I'm afraid. --DannyWilde 13:28, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Practically, Hepburn-shiki Romanization has been taught and Kunrei-shiki Romanization has been ignored, though Kunrei-shiki has been taught first and Hepburn-shiki second. --Rocky7 13:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: System taught in Japanese elementary schools

message: I am very astonished with the current context of Kunrei-shiki Rōmaji and this discussion page, because, in fact, Japanese people have been taught both Kunrei-shiki and Hepburn-shiki, and almost all of Japanese people have adopted Hepburn-shiki mainly, because they themselves(including the bureaucrats of Japanese government) have to feel that some regulations of the current Kunrei-shiki are apparently wrong. The current Kunrei-shiki(since 1954) seems to reflect the arrogant way of thinking of both ultra-right wingers and ultar-left wingers who aren't going to communicate with the Westerners friendly. As a result of such a crazily dynamic politics, the current Kunrei-shiki was born in 1954. 1954 is one of such a confused period for the Japanese government. And such a reckless ultar-right wingers are still alive and well, extending its power, unfortunately. Moreover, many extra-regulations in the current Kunrei-shiki(1954) are evidently worse than ones of the past Kunrei-shiki(1937). This means that the pre-war government of Japan is so much wiser than all of the post-war one. After noticing it, I have very mixed feelings. Anyway, the true facts about Japanese Romanization are too complicated and too unknown to discuss here. Therefore, I'd like to offer the necessary facts of Japanese ordinary people and Japanese government directly into the article with the references in the first place. Any Japanese Wikipedian who read this talk page, would have to feel it is no use to discuss here, because some of you have been superficially deceived by the tricky compromise made by the Japanese government, though any Japanese can't be cheated by such a piutiful excuse. If you want to know and talk about the truths of Japanese Romanization systems, you should live in Japan at least for a few years and realize the complicated truths. So, forgive me for omitting some procedures. Thank you. -- Rocky7 13:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've had to revert your edits to the article, because they're not WP:NPOV and in rather poor English to boot (sorry). Please discuss changes here first. Jpatokal 12:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't know what Jpatokal means. I think, one can't object to anything Rocky7 said here. And obviously Jpatokal has never discussed anything meaningful and been against Wikipedia's policies of free-editting and WP:NPOV. You should not stick to your own opinion, ignoring the facts about Japanese words. You should discuss here first before reverting. SeraphGood 10:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Today, the main users of Kunrei-shiki are linguists studying Japanese. Native speakers of Japanese (especially within Japan) and pro-Japanese foreigners have adopted Hepburn-shiki since nineteenth century, because it reflects the most accurate pronunciations of Japanese words. The advantage of Kunrei-shiki is only that it is better able to illustrate Japanese grammar.
 
My objections are as follows:
* "Main users of Kunrei-shiki" -- this is a bold claim and requires a source.  There's plenty of counterevidence, just try googling for eg "kaisya" and see how many linguists you can find in the results.
* "Accurate pronunciation" is POV.  Hepburn is more accurate if you're an English speaker and expect your romaji to follow English rules; most Japanese are more comfortable with Kunrei.
* The current article states that Kunrei's main advantage is illustrating grammar.  By claiming that it's the only one, you're ignoring its higher regularity and conformance to kana patterns. Jpatokal 10:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Analyze the ambiguity of [[Japanese government]] correctly. 

message: Though shorter than the Hepburn article, this one does appear to include all the necessary information about the system itself (e.g. phoneme charts); it includes detailed, well-written, and unbiased descriptions of the system's origin, its official status, the difficulties it presents to native English speakers, and the fact that Hepburn is thus the de facto standard in many parts of the world. Thus, B class is warranted IMHO. LordAmeth 14:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Project Assessment

message: I removed this sentence from the end of the lead: "Today, Japanese commonly choose between Kunrei-shiki and Hepburn depending on the given situation."
This is plainly not true, in any literal sense. Of course, you will find bits of Hepburn and bits of Kunrei-shiki written here and there, and you will also find (a preponderance of) "Waapuro input" pseudo-romanisation (jyo, ssyi, cchi, etc etc) which is not part of any system. My impression is that around 0.001% of the population actually knows sufficiently what "Hepburn" and "Kunreishiki" are to be able to make such a "choice". This could be replaced by a sentence about how chaotic romanisation actually is, but I'm not sure how to make that a brief comment in the lead. Imaginatorium (talk) 08:41, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dodgy claim about "choosing" systems 

message: The English pronunciation of "Tokyo" as  isn't "wrong", it's just different from the Japanese pronunciation of . While I understand that this does probably come from a misreading of Hepburn romaji or some other Romanization of Japanese,  is now a seperate word from its Japanese language etymon  and the accepted English-language exonym for Tokyo. The article should give a better example. Categorizing the English word "Tokyo" as a mispronunciation of Japanese is only historically true. -preceding undated comment added on 18:39, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  English Pronunciation of "Tokyo" 

message: Will this stick?
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/03/02/japan/society/japan-romanization-rules-revise/
Alphapeta (talk) 13:19, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you asking if this source is acceptable for use in this article? Then, yes. If this is a general question about kunreishiki, please see WP:NOTFORUM. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 23:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japan is switching its official romanization from Kunrei to Hepburn? 

message: It must be noted, however, that words written with Hepburn system are often pronounced incorrectly as well; for example, while English has the [i] sound of Japanese, in English it is rarely written as 'i', which creates the impression that 'i' is supposed to represent [ɪ] — thus [çiɾa̠ɡa̠na̠] became [hɪɹəɡænə] in English instead of [hiɹəɡænə].
Is there a source for the relevance of this? As far as I understand it, vowel length is phonemic in Japanese but the difference between [i] and [ɪ] is not. So Japanese people may prefer the pronunciation with [ɪ] over the pronunciation with [i] since most dialects of English pronounce /i/ as a long vowel ('hiiragana'). I don't know whether they actually do prefer this, but it seems to me that this statement should be clearly sourced, or else removed if a source isn't available. Stockhausenfan (talk) 01:25, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it'd be just fine to remove it. (Love your editor handle, by the way!) —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 01:27, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Great, I will remove this from the article then unless someone else objects. (And thanks, yes great composer indeed!) Stockhausenfan (talk) 01:30, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possibly dubious claim in the article?