Talk:Tempranillo

message: *Does anyone know about the history of this wine? Charleenmerced  Talk 18:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old discussion 

message: I'm 95% sure these are Tempranillo vines; I was told that's what they were and the leaves look about right. mikaul 13:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos 

message: The long-promised section is ready! I'll post it up but I'd appreciate eyes over it - is it too long? How do we illustrate it? etc, etc... mikaul 11:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: I've read the article and I think it meets all of the six criteria of good articles.  The number of references is commendable.  I liked the detailed history section, and I also liked how the article, although about a Spanish grape, explains its use in many different countries outside of Spain.  I think with time you might want to expand the article to include a list of major vinyards (or maybe there are too many to make a list?), and maybe some additional discussion of the popularity of the wine (maybe some statistics about rankings or sales).  Also there is a bulleted reference at the end of the numbered inline citations--I wasn't sure why this was there and not entered somewhere as an inline citation.  Overall, a good job by the editors of this article.  Biomedeng 02:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Promoting to GA status 

message: I have to say that this article is one of the best in the project. Tremendous work and kudos to all. AgneCheese/Wine 11:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Great work!

message: Apparently, the matter is not settled. As I would not like things to escalate unnecessarily, should we try to get a few other voices, maybe by using a request for comments? Asteriontalk 21:59, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support opening up a RFC. I thought we came to a reasonable conclusion that it probably wasn't appropriate to use terms like "cool"/"warm"/"hot" etc since the reader might not have the background or know the context in which those terms are being used. The article uses reliable sources to give the bare fact of what the temperature if like in one Tempranillo's prime growing spots. The anon IP seems insistent on introducing vagueness to point where it is misleading in the article. I hope that he will join us again in having some productive dialog. AgneCheese/Wine 04:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Update I put in the RfC request in the society category. Unfortunately there really isn't a Food, wine and culture type category. I'm not sure how many responses we can get since, apart from wine geeks, it is somewhat of a silly and mundane disagreement. AgneCheese/Wine 04:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Part II

message: *Summary of view by user Agne A few weeks ago the Tempranillo article stated that Tempranillo did not like hot and dry weather. The anon IP sought to correct this  by saying the opposite in that it enjoys hot weather. Various rewrites and discussions took place above and in the edit summary of the article. The anon IP is correct, to a degree, in that Tempranillo is not a "cool climate grape" in the fact that you're talking about it growing in Sioux Falls or the Mosel. But it is a grape that wine experts consistently note needs a "cooler environment" in order to fulfill its potential. (See examples above and in the article). One of the most well known location for producing outstanding Tempranillo is the Ribera del Duero, which is one of the "cooler sites" in Spain. But this where the root of the disagreement shines. 
:The problem is the context In the wine world, terms like "cool"/"warm"/"hot" are subjective and actually depend on the context of the region you are talking about. In French wine, the Loire Valley region is considered "cool" with an mean July temperature of 67F(19.4C) while the Roussillon is considered "hot" with a mean July temp of 74.7F (23.7C). For those curious, in the wine world (for the Northern Hemisphere) July is one of the most vital wine growing months in terms of development which is why it is of primarily consideration. The Ribera del Duero falls in between with July temperature 70.5 °F (21.4°C) and Rioja, where Tempranillo is also prominently grown is even cooler with 68.5F(20.3). This is in contrast to other Spanish wine regions like Jerez at 77.9F (25.5) where you find hardly any Tempranillo at all, or of poorer quality. This also doesn't take into consideration that many of Ribera (and Rioja) best Tempranillo vineyards are at higher altitudes (2642-2755 ft/800m-840m) where the temperature drops 1 °C for every 150 metres (or 33F for every 492ft). So while the low valley floor can reach a daytime high of 104°F (40C), the grapes are rarely exposed to that type of sustain heat. 
:Therefore we need to avoid adjectives like "cool" and "hot" and just let the reader look at the basic facts and figure and decide for themselves what type of adjectives to use. For those that are familiar with Spanish wines and know the comparison to other major wine region, Tempranillo thrives in relatively "cooler" climate and would probably consciously avoid a New World Tempranillo made in say....the Sierra Foothills AVA with its 77F (25C) July temps. For those that want to compare it with their own environment in Sioux Falls, London, Chicago, etc than the Ribera would be for them a warm climate. It would be misleading for us to try and characterize based on our own background knowledge and context. AgneCheese/Wine 05:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a fair summary. The main points as I see them: 
#As it concerns a definitively Spanish grape, this entire article was originally researched from Spanish sources. From a Spanish perspective, Tempranillo is a cool-climate grape, as it does its best stuff in the northern mountains. The fact that it needs 30°C+ daytime summer temperatures is almost meaningless in a country in which that is the case literally everywhere you go. This is the origin of the original offending phrase "It grows best in cooler regions as it does not tolerate hot or dry weather well" that, from a northern European perspective, was rightly challenged as misleading. This phrase was removed following earlier discussion here.
#By the same token, the phrase "hot climate" means radically different things to different people and we are equally right to challenge its use here. The key phrase to use, which I think everyone accepts, is that the grape does its best stuff in climates with "extremes of temperature", which means the same to everyone whether they live in a 50° desert or a 5° swamp. 
#Dwelling on this point is not giving it undue weight. Tempranillo is one of the few  red grapes which thrives in these conditions. 
#We can demonstrate a fairly clear consensus on this page and should probably set about applying the lessons learned from it to a raft of other wine articles; in light of this, changes like this are unhelpful, inflammatory point making exercises we could well do without. I suggest we consider such changes as vandalism and pursue future article stability along those lines.--mikaultalk 10:54, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good points. I don't know if "extremes of temperature" (at least by itself) would clear up matters. I certainly agree that this is not undue weight because it is one of the exact reasons why Tempranillo is so interesting. AgneCheese/Wine 11:05, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree that max temperatures are a not a good indicator and the anon-IP, themselves, seemed to get confused with the 104 F max temp rather than looking at the mean temperatures (which is much more vital in wine growing). You make some good points. How do you feel about the current text of the article? AgneCheese/Wine 00:30, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Good questions and admittedly I don't know. I like some of your proposed wording. As for degree days, I'll keep looking but I suspect some of the best sources might be in Spanish. AgneCheese/Wine 16:56, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are plenty of good Spanish sources citing damp conditions as unfavourable (google "tempranillo" and "humedad") – it's a much bigger negative factor (ie promotes disease) than excess heat, which affects yield characteristics but has a less detrimental effect on quality. [This article] wanders off the point a little but is good on the vagaries of degree days and the importance of terrain. I must say, it leaves me at a loss as to finding any ready climactic benchmarks. Maybe, given that it's a case-by-case thing, we should be putting more meat on the bones of the "climate" sections within our grape articles. --mikaultalk 19:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: RfC

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thread_title: [[WP:FOOD|WikiProject Food and drink]] Tagging

message: Much of this article is based on the Spanish wiki article. Along with it came some citations that do not meet WP:RS, or at least the English version. A lot of the section on Tempranillo Blanco may have to go if I can't fine reliable sources. Also, I just removed a chunk from the history section that quoted a 13th century poet. The original web citation was from Spanish tourism site that quoted from Libro de Alexandre. The quote is used to suggest that the poet was talking about grapes in Spain during the 13th century. However, Libro de Alexandre is about Alexander the Great, who obviously lived much earlier. I found Ian Michael's The Treatment of Classical Material in the "Libro de Alexandre", where it's suggested the poet was displaying his knowledge of viticulture by providing the names of grapes that must have been cultivated in Spain during his lifetime. Sound like a shaky historical source for an encyclopedia? Let me know if anybody thinks I should put this back into the article. Cheers! Encycloshave (talk) 02:18, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I can probably help out a bit (but won't be able to do much until the weekend). Personally, I would just ruthlessly remove the unsourced/questionably sourced material and essentially rewrite the entire section if need be. Which sections need the most attention? The history and Tempranillo blanco section? AgneCheese/Wine 04:34, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, a note about the synonyms. The bulk of the list is referenced to the German Vitis International Variety Catalogue which is an exceedingly reliable source that is used in nearly every single grape variety article. The parenthetical locations are a not part of that ref and while mostly accurate, are harder to verify and are somewhat OR. I would recommend removing the locations and if the extra synonyms from the deadlink can't be verified they should be removed as well. But I don't see a need to remove the VIVC list. Yes, it is a bit long but that abundance of synonyms is actually a unique characteristic of Tempranillo and it is the last section of the article so it is not that much of an eye sore. AgneCheese/Wine 04:40, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Indeed, the Tempranillo Blanco needs the most help. I may strip it and move a lot the content to one of my sandboxes and see if I can confirm the information later. Do you read Spanish? Mine is limited. With my knowledge of it and the cautious use of Google Translator, I may be able to eventually salvage some of the T. Blanco. And I also agree on the synonyms. I've cited Vitis before, but it is a bit lean on synonym details. Still, some of those locations listed are already mentioned in other parts of the article. Encycloshave (talk) 10:24, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Never mind the above regarding T. Blanco. It's poorly sourced, and besides, the Spanish wiki has T. Blanco in its own article. Right now, it's sitting in a sandbox for when I can find decent sources.Encycloshave (talk) 15:45, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources that don't meet [[WP:RS]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified