Talk:Lord of the Universe/Archive 1

message: Thanks for a well researched and meticulously sourced article. I will add some more material to provide some needed context. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are most welcome.  Do you have hyperlinks for these reviews you have added?  I fear that there may be quoted portions of the reviews missing, and quotes in place appearing out of context.  Also, the Dupont Award is very notable and should be mentioned early in the article.  I will place the WIP tag.  PLEASE respect.  Smee 18:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: No, I do not have URLs of free online sources. I use several online databases that require payment. 
#I have restored the context for Offman as it is pertinent to the article. True, people can hyperlink, but there is no harm in providing context for Hoffman and Davies which you described in your edit as an "activist". 
#I have moved the award to the appropriate section rather than the lead, as done with many other award-winning documentaries. 
#I re-ordered the reviews in chronological fashion of their appearance as before. Could you also please provide the exact date for the Los Angeles Times review? Otherwise is not verifiable. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:05, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I will work on getting the citation date.  I will restore the Awards section.  This is common for most films articles.  Smee 20:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I already did. It is now in the lead. I understand that there is a review that was published on The Christian Science Monitor, but I cannot locate it. Maybe you could? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:41, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for that information.  I will try.  Smee 20:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: That is NOT what Abbie Hoffman is most known for.  He is most know for his book, Steal this Book.  At any rate, that is not something for us to decide, that is for the editors of the Abbie Hoffman article to decide over there.  Allow the reader to read the article there, and don't try to denigrate him here with a few words of POV pushing.  It is inappropriate.  Smee 21:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is eerily similar to those editors who love to write "Example cult expert, comma, and anti-cult activist, comma, believes such and such."  This is inappropriate for editors to go POV pushing with labels all over Wikipedia.  Better to restrict this to articles about the subject themselves, and leave either no rejoinder or a very simple one here.  Smee 21:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a very interesting conversation. You believe that it is denigrating to say about Hoffman that he was a member of the Chicago Seven. For others, that is actually a positive fact  of Hoffman's life as it shows his determination to fight the establishment and enhances his image of a protester. I could argue that the one pushing a POV, may be you, with your removal of that fact. Maybe time for a WP:THIRD opinion? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: It reminds me of another dispute at Charismatic authority in which some editors were asking for adding a person and other asking from removing the same person, as each side believed that the addition or removal was "pushing a POV" (some saw this as a positive and others a s a negative). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Let us talk about the content.  Just how much space in this article do we need for context about Abbie Hoffman?  He is notable for lots of things.  Shall we devote an entire paragraph just to describing context about Abbie Hoffman?  How about a paragraph of context for each of the individuals mentioned in the article?  The companies?  There is such a thing as too much context, especially if other articles on Wikipedia already exist on these individuals.  Smee 21:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the only movie he directed. He makes fun of Rennie Davies on it (I am researching exact quotes), etc. As such, information about Davies and Hoffman need to be sufficient to provide basic context for readers. I am off now for a while. Will return to expand the article later in the evening or tomorrow morining. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:55, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I like your compromise about the Abbie Hoffman context for the moment.  Smee 21:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Interlude?  What do you mean?  I wonder if this can be given a tighter classification in the films wikiproject... Smee 02:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I meant that as a metaphor... i.e as an "interlude" in a section in music between one person's solo and another's. Davies speaks of Hoffman and Hoffman speaks of Davies during the taping of the film I remember reading something about that. The films wikiproject usually deals with films rather than with TV documentaries, but you could try. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We shall see.  Smee 02:44, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arbitrary section header 

message: ; : How does a TV documentary that was shot in video tape using Portapak, and shown in PBS , suddenly becames a film?  What sources describe the TV show as a film? The award, for example, was given for Broadcast journalism. Not for a "film". I do not understand the need to "upgrade" this documentary from what it is: a TV documentary. Placing request at WP:THIRD ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Note that the source for "five more films" does not say that. It says "five TVTV programs". See Lord_of_the_Universe_%28documentary%29#_note-video_history_project ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Please see all of the sources on this below.  Smee 21:13, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Those are people incorrectly using the word "film" to mean "movie." This was one of the pioneering works of early 1/2" video. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Poorsara (talk • contribs) 21:18, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have secondary sources for these assertions?  Smee 21:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Film? 

message: As far as I know, op-eds are not reliable sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would concur, since they are presented as the opinion of an individual reporter and not of the news agency as a whole.  Do news agencies even express opinions? Flakeloaf 04:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: In this case that is irrelevant, because the op-ed was described in the book by Mick Brown The Spiritual Tourist. Andries 11:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Op-ed]]s 

message: I have edited the article to be as close as possible to the sources provided. Each edit is explained in the edit summaries. Still to be corrected in the lead in which it is still referred as a documentary film, rather than a TV documentary.  ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Staying close to the sources 

message: *Sources that refer to Lord of the Universe as a "FILM"
#MediaRights Listed in Directory "film", note, states "rate this film", and "film description..."
#Williams. Bob, "On the Air," New York Post, February 25, 1974 - refers to it as "deplorable film", and yet a film, nonetheless...
#Megan Williams, producer of the film, referred to as a independent documentary film producer, and not an "independent TV Documentary producer"... hrm...
#Video History Project, quoting: "If you take Top Value's product, and look at it very objectively, it looks like documentary film."
*Will add more momentarily...  Smee 06:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stay as close to the source as possible. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is MediaRight default settings for all customer reviews and customer ratings. That does not make this TV documentary a film (what is wrong with TV documentary, anyway?) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: independent documentary film producer does not make this a film, does it? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 07:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I have replaced the contested "film" categories as these are not supported by the sources. Added :Category:Television_documentaries instead. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will add more sources to clarify.  These are justified by the sources.  Please wait.  Thank you for your patience.  Smee 06:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, but note that I had to fix many of your edits as these were not kept close to the source. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Bob Williams said "film". OK. But every one else is saying "TV documentary", program, etc. We should respect the third opinion, though. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 07:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As your "TV Documentary", is merely a redirect to "Documentary Film", it is in line with the Third Opinion to change the wikilink to TV Documentary, and yet keep the Film Categories.  Smee 07:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact, most of the sources refer to it as simply "Documentary" and not TV Documentary.  This is in effect POV pushing that is not "kept close to the source".  Smee 07:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Where does the third opinion said to keep the film categories? We kept documentary film in the lead as TV documentary redirects there, but this production is not a film, but a TV program as per the abundant sources provided. As for your baseless accusations of POV pushing, note that I did not use "TV documentary" but stayed close to the source in fixing your additions of "film" "cinematographers", "film crew", etc. that were not in the source. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 07:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and those edits you made, are actually fine.  But for the simple reason itself that TV Documentary redirects to Documentary film, and the fact that virtually all of the sources refer to the program as "program", "TVTV program" "award-winning documentary" or "documentary", the film categories can remain and are inclusive.  Smee 07:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I disagree, Smee. This is not a film and categorizing the article as such is not right. I will ask the third opinion user to comment again. Good night for now. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 07:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Even more sources that describe the film and the film company as a film and/or a documentary film.  In addition, most of the producers of the film are entitled:  documentary film makers.  Smee 07:43, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Should I make a list in which sources describes this production as a TV program, or TV documentary? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 07:45, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you feel you must, please do so in a new section.  However, I contend that the simple fact that so many refer to it as a film or documentary film and its producers as documentary film makers, suggest that at the very least both classification and categories apply.  Smee 07:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not absolutely happy with categorizing this TV documentary as a "film", but I could live with it. I just read Film (an interesting article, BTW) and could not find any references to TV programs being called "films". I will check if there are additional TV-related categories that this article can be added to as well. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:28, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: The only pertinent one that I could find was :Category:Television documentaries, and it was already in the article.  So, I think we are done with this now. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, great.  I must say it does seem that when you and I avail ourselves of the Wikipedia processes, and strive to utilize kind language on talk pages, refraining from bold, italics, caps, whenever possible, etc., it seems that we are actually doing some good work together.  Hope you are doing well.  Smee 22:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. You are right. I am doing so, so, down with the flu... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources that refer to Lord of the Universe as a "FILM" 

message: *As per the sourced quote: "first program originally made on 1/2-inch video tape to be broadcast nationally" - backed up by citation.  Smee 20:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  12 inch tape 

message: I had a suspicion that Hoffman was not the director. The intermix source does not name Hoffman. The rolling credits on the documentary does not list Hoffman either. Note that many listings in Amazon are user generated and not checked for accuracy. It reads:
:Directors: Abbie Hoffman, Rennie Davis, Guru Maharaj Ji, Hudson Marquez, Allen Rucker
 
Most definitively wrong!
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably not wrong actually, we just do not have secondary sources for this at the moment.  Smee 20:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually, wrong, Smee. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, right.  Just haven't found more citations yet.  But I will allow the change for now without dispute...  Smee 21:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The page at Amazom was created by a user that sells old copies of the film. He/she made the blunder of naming Hoffman, Davis, Guru Maharaj Ji, and others as directors. I have sent a message to Amazon to correct the mistake. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:36, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Did you send a message to Amazon in your capacity as a Wikipedia user, or something else?  Smee 18:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Amazon.com encourages all users to assist in the proper identification of their products. Below the "Products Details" section of any book or video, there is a link "Would you like to update product info". You can then provide them with feedback about mistakes in their listings. They have a team that then check with multiple sources to verify the info. They are quite good at it, they respond with an email message telling you if they have fixed it or not. The reason for this is that there are tens of thousands of products in Amazon that have been added by users that sell second hand, out-of-print books, so they are interested in fixing any mistakes in their listings, for obvious reasons. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That did not answer my question...  Smee 19:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh... sorry, I think I did. I just sent feedback as myself. I am a long-time customer of Amazon (spending too much of my money on books... if I may says so...) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sometimes I feel the same way...  Smee 20:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Director 

message: When we did not know the mistake about Hoffman being the director, having a quote so prominent may have been OK. Now that we know that it was only a mention, and as it is already featured in the cover art, having that quote highlighted is undue weight. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:42, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a prominently featured quote in the cover art, as you say, and has been widely disseminated.  I will restore.  Smee 21:51, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

text: That is a straw man argument. The quote is in the article, the format is what is disputed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I do not know if you are aware of it, but we have both violated WP:3RR. You can undo your last revert, to avoid getting blocked, and I will do the same. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:09, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am confused.  Which was the last edit?  Smee 22:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have assumed good faith and reverted myself.  I expect you to do the same as you have stated you would above...  Smee 22:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Done. Now, note that we should not have to have done so. If we disagree with an edit,  we can revert just once and discuss. And if we cannot reach agreement,  we need to ask for help to pursue dispute resolution. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:27, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you show us both our respective DIFFs that show we reverted 3RR?  I did not see that either of us had done so...  Smee 22:28, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

text: (shhhh, we did, indeed). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh well.  We both reverted ourselves in good faith to each other on this one...  Smee 23:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undue weight 

message: wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
; Viewpoint by (): Initially, a mistake was made naming Abbie Hoffman as the director of this production. At that time having a quote from the director highlighted and made prominent by the use of the  template, was warranted. Now that we know that Hoffman only appears briefly in the video, having that quote highlighted is given undue weight to Hoffman, in particular when the quote is already prominent in the cover art of the VHS video. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I still disagree, but will accept the third opinion in good faith. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your opinion.  I am glad as well that Jossi and I were able to both self-revert, and wait for your comment in good faith.  Smee 23:51, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third opinion 

message: The article says - "According to the plot description at TVRO[14], the Video Data Bank[11], the University of California, Santa Cruz[15], and Art Journal[6], at the event, the 16-year old Guru promised to levitate the Houston Astrodome". I don't believe it. Has anybody got these quotes.Momento 09:47, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There were all "quoting" the same source, parroting a mistaken statement. It happens. ~~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jossi (talk • contribs) 14:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The sources are all cited accurately.  And no, they are not all "parroting the same statement" - the wording used in each instance is different.  Smee 16:37, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely they are... Most certainly Rawat never made that statement. Unfortunately, we have to respect these sources and attribute the blunder to them. I am looking for sources that quote PR verbatim. I hope I can find these and dispel the myth of that statement. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:18, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Perhaps it was not PR himself that made the statement, but rather the PR for the PR event involving PR...  Smee 18:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That could very well be, Smee... there were a lot of outrageous claims going around that time... I am looking to see if I can find any refs about that. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:54, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay.  Perhaps promotional publications about the event from that time...  Smee 19:02, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually, the only place I could find a mention of  the levitation idea is ... this documentary. Rennie Davis says that in the video... maybe as a metaphor. The reviewers picked up on that to write what they wrote. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:23, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually is not Davis, by a bespectacled guy saying something weird about "green energy" and the Astrodome separating from earth...  Time code on the video 9:05. Prem Rawat did not say that, I knew that... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:38, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And yet, perhaps he did, just not on the documentary itself, but around that same time in relation to the event...  Smee 00:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I personally do not believe that Prem Rawat said this himself. May be his older brother. The rumor of approaching Aliens and levitation of the Houston Astrodome were widespread during Millenium '73. Why don't we move the contents of this article to Millenium '73 and expand it a bit? Andries 00:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say that that is a good idea - and yet most of the citations refer directly to the documentary film.  Why don't you first start the Millenium '73 article, and then add to it utilizing citations present in this article?  Smee 00:44, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Again, I also do not think it is a good idea, along with Jossi.  That is, unless there are enough citations available for Millenium '73 to be its own separate article.  Smee 07:48, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Perhaps, and perhaps not.  All that we can draw from the multiple reputable secondary sources themselves is the information directly stated by them.  Smee 21:10, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately that is true. There is one stoned guy in the video saying something weird about "green energy" and the astrodome taking off from Earth, that's all. A good example  of yellow journalism, I guess. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, the multiple reputable secondary sources might not have gotten their particular information from the DuPont-Columbia Award-winning documentary film itself.  And "yellow journalism", is an interesting characterization, however unsourced, and yet a topic of discussion for a different article.  Smee 21:16, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wish you were right, but unfortunately many "reliable sources" do not do the fact checking they suppose to do. "Levitating the Astrodome" is a "good line" and they all repeated it without verifying it. What can one do in these situations? Not much, I guess. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, we simply do not know if "they all repeated it without verifying it", if they got it from the DuPont-Columbia Award-winning documentary film itself, or from other multiple sources.  Those are all assumptions.  Smee 21:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I've checked the links. In fact, only one leads to a plot desctiption. The VDB says "Marahaj Ji attempts to levitate the Houston Astrodome in this 1973 DuPont award winning documentary" which is, of course, incorrect. Cruzcat says about GMJ "(its is said) he promised to levitate the Houston Astrodome", which of course is entirely different;  WNET doesn't mention it; TVRO describes the movie as "Parody/Spoof/Satire" about GMJ "who promised to levitate the Houston Astrodome!" and the Art Journal article says about the Astrodome that  "the guru promised would levitate at the close". So it is clear that descriBing these varying comments aS "According to the plot description at ....." is wrong. The claim is "according to the back cover". Momento 01:52, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, we don't know if the reputable secondary source citations got their info from the DuPont-Columbia Award-winning documentary film itself, or from other multiple sources.  Any other conclusions would be assumptions.  Smee 05:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Well we know for certain they didn't get their info from the film because it isn't in the film. And since the claim doesn't appear anywhere else except in reference to the film, the only conclusion is they took it from the packaging of the film. And that isn't a reliable source.Momento 07:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I fail to see your logic.  We cannot infer anything about the source of the material.  Sure, it may have come from the box of the DuPont-Columbia Award-winning documentary film, but most likely these reputable secondary citations got their material from other sources at the time of the event itself.  Smee 17:50, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your "context" is incorrect.  Please do not make assumptions about secondary sources, where you think they got their information from, and their intentions.  Smee 17:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

text: You reverted in error. I didn't remove any material. I a) changed comic punctuation marks as per MOS and added pertinent info about Hoffman; b) added info about levitation claim on packaging.Momento 18:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've read the "debate" about comic commas, Jossi was right, I have changed them to conform to Wiki manual of style.Momento 18:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would ask that since a WP:Third opinion was already consulted once with regards to this issue and upheld the quoted formatting version, that you leave it in the article.  If you still object, it would be appropriate to leave it in the article until we can get more commentary from an RFC.  Smee 18:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Levitating the Astrodome 

message: Since AH is so prominantly quoted on the cover and in this article about the Astrodome event, a reader could reasonably believe that Hoffman was either at the Astrodome or viewed the LotU video upon which his comments are printed. Since he was on the run in Nov 1973 and dead in 1989 it is clear that AH was not at the event or commenting about the video.Momento 23:19, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I fail to see the relevance and purpose of this Abbie Hoffman information?  It seems to serve no other purpose but to attempt to disparage him.  We could include plenty of other "context" as well, but we have been through this already.  It is superfluous and the reader can find out more about him in his own article.  Smee 07:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abbie Hoffman 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://cinema.usc.edu/academic_programs/production/academic-production-professors-adjunct.cfm (archive)
** In Lord of the Universe on 2007-06-24 14:43:41, 404 Not Found
** In Lord of the Universe on 2007-07-11 12:36:20, 404 Not Found
The web page has been saved by the Internet Archive. Please consider linking to an appropriate archived version: . --Stwalkerbot 12:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

message: *Looks like some of the cites in the article are formatted with WP:CIT, and yet some are not.  I will go ahead and make this uniform throughout the article.  Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 00:19, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:CIT|Wikipedia Citation templates]] 

message: Per the norm for WP:FA film articles, in common practice by the Wikipedia:WikiProject Film folks, it's usually standard for the Content section of a film article to simply summarize events in the film.  This is verifiable back to the film itself, and as the 1991 VHS edition of this film is still readily available, it is verifiable here too.  I will work on expanding the Content section with this in mind, in the near future.  
More on this from Wikipedia:WikiProject Films members  DIFF,  DIFF, and  DIFF.  
Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 23:16, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Content section 

message: The reason I reverted you there is because the Lead/Intro is supposed to summarize the article.  Therefore, there will be some information in the lead that is initially stated, and then expanded upon in more detail later on in the article.  I still have to add a summary of the now expanded "Production" section to the Lead, as well.  Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 03:08, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then summarize the article, not just a detail. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:10, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am in the midst of summarizing the article right now, perhaps take a short break from the article, give me a chance to summarize what I have just written/expanded upon, and then you can feel free to critique it and change things if you feel the need to?  That way we won't be editing over each other.  Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 03:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That is not editing over each other, you are edit warring. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:14, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  As are you.  Will you take a break and give me a couple of minutes to summarize the article?  Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 03:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I think that is a good example of cherry picking what to summarize and what not. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Okay, great, now we are getting somewhere.  What do you think should be summarized, and what not?  Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 03:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Will you answer my question?  Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 03:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  See my edit. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Looks great!  No problems here.  Good job.  I would only say that per WP:LEAD there should only be 4 total paragraphs in the Lead/Intro, so that tiny first paragraph should be merged with the 2nd.  Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 03:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My mistake, there are four currently.  But a one sentence first paragraph doesn't look good. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 03:46, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

text:  Apology accepted. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sigh, thanks.  Next time, I'll ask for your input first on the talk page, before reverting your changes.  That is, unless it's a small matter like a typo or something.  Again, thanks for your help on the article.  Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 04:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead/Intro 

message: *I took a look at models from both Wikipedia:WikiProject Films/Style guidelines and from examples at :Category:FA-Class film articles.  In both cases I found that IMDB and AMG external links commonly appear in both the infobox, and the External links section of these other Featured Articles for Films.  Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 11:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: *Please do not add unsourced material to the article without a citation to a WP:RS/WP:V source.  Thanks.  Cirt (talk) 01:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The actual quote shown in text in the film says "This year the most holy and significant event in human history will take place in America" which was taken from the invitation. But in the letter GMJ was referring to his father/guru's birthday which was celebrated every year in Nov. So it is incorrect to claim in the content that M73 was "billed" as etc. How would you handle this.Momento (talk) 02:19, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One sec, let me come up with an NPOV solution that will hopefully be appropriate.  Cirt (talk) 02:26, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm just watching "LOTU" and Rennie's quote in the "content" -"When I went to see Guru Maharaj Ji, it was not to embrace God, but to see what he could show me. And all I can do now is be honest about what happened. Guru Maharaj Ji showed me God" is not in the film but from a book.Momento (talk) 02:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the content section needs a complete re-write. Who ever wrote it has cherry picked quotes and scenes that give an entirely subjective view of the content. Momento (talk) 05:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing was cherry picked.  The content section utilizes material backed up to secondary sources instead of simply summarizing the film itself as a primary source.  If you can find additional content mentioned in other secondary sources not currently used in the article, feel free to expand it with more citations.  Cirt (talk) 05:04, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of unsourced material to Content section 

message: I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of December 1, 2007, compares against the  six good article criteria:
:1. Well written?: Pass
:2. Factually accurate?: "
:3. Broad in coverage?: "
:4. Neutral point of view?: "
:5. Article stability? 
:6. Images?: "
  If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to Good article reassessment. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations.</div>— Vikrant Phadkay 19:37, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Successful [[Wikipedia:Good articles|good article]] nomination

message: I don't think we can characterize this as a "satirical" documentary, with only the one source All Movie Guide, which puts it in the Genre/Type of: "Spirituality & Philosophy, Biography, Religions & Belief Systems" - and only mentions that the "tone" is humorous.  I searched but have not come across any other secondary WP:RS/WP:V sources that refer to this documentary as a "satire", "satirical", "parody", or "comedy", but am willing to be corrected if other sources are provided.  Cirt (talk) 23:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Genre: Parody/Spoof, Satire, Biography.   ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:24, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Please restore the category you just deleted. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That is not The New York Times, but rather All Movie Guide, and the more recent version of the All Movie Guide page is here (same as initial link given above).  Cirt (talk) 23:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  That is in the New York Times, and was in the All Movie Guide for many years as well, until someone changed it recently. All it takes is an email to feedback@allmovie.com. I have emailed them and asked them about the sudden change. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:46, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

text:  I do not appreciate you asking a question, and at the same time deleting the category and changing the lead. This is a FA article, btw, so thread with caution. I will place a note at the FAR in this regard ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Satirical 

message: The sentence from Bob Williams, can be helped with some context which is now missing. Also expanded on details for the source used:
:Bob Williams of the New York Post called the documentary a "deplorable film" and "flat, pointless, television", and was critical of the airing of the tape during a PBS fund raising drive. He wrote: "The hour-long program was remiss in not providing some small examination of the available box-office take of the goofy kid guru, much less telling prospective contributors how it got involved in spending how much of its foundation grants and viewer subscription money in such a questionable venture without more inquisitive journalistic endeavor, or ignoring gurus."On the Air]], "TVTV Illuminates the Ji" New York Post, February 25, 1974. p.42 
: The context is still missing, Highlighted above. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Any reason why this context has not been added? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see how the bolded section adds context, unless this is an article about PBS fundraising. From that context, if I was to paraphrase, Isn't Bob saying essentially "this show isn't very good, and I don't know why PBS would show it during a time when they are trying to raise money"?. That's what I get from that, and then if we drop the irrelevant portion concerning PBS, we're left with what we have. How do you see it differently? -- Maelefique (talk) 20:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Review 

message: RfC tag removed. -- Maelefique (talk) 21:04, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay we've gotten some good outside feedback here from  and , as well as some additional input/rationale from  - anyone object to closing this RfC at this point?  Cirt (talk) 05:46, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

text: We can close it indeed, and I see that someone has already done so. As per the feedback given, a mention in Reception section of the article would be appropriate. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:11, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Also note that I have written to MDB AMG with an inquiry about the sudden change of categorization, and they will be responding in a few weeks as per their reply. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:13, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI, The Lord of the Universe entry at The New York Times, again, itself a reference to All Movie Guide, also no longer mentions any sort of parody/spoof/satire genre, but reads: Genre: Biography, Religions & Belief Systems.  And what is "MDB" ?  Do you mean you wrote to AMG?  Cirt (talk) 06:16, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, AMG. I will wait for their response and post it here when I receive it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:21, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay.  Cirt (talk) 06:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Comment 

message: Per this source: , which categorize this tape's genre as Parody/Spoof, Satire, Biography. The New York Times data is aggregated from two sources: Inbaseline  and All Media Guide , which are industry standards. This is not about what other sources do not categorize the genre as, but about what The New York Times does categorize the genre as. 
Per WP:NPOV, and WP:V, this categorization is worthy of keeping in the article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Reasons to include

message: *Per Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden of evidence, the responsibility for providing justification rests with an editor who wants to include material.
 
*No current source lists this film as satire.  The New York Times citation simply references an outdated All Movie Guide mention, and the All Movie Guide article itself no longer lists this film as satire, but rather as: "Genre / Type - Spirituality & Philosophy, Biography, Religions & Belief Systems", and in the text description characterizes it as a "documentary" and a "biographical portrait".
 
*Multiple sources treat this film as a serious documentary.  Several sample quotes:
#"an hour-long documentary on the activities of the Guru Maharaj Ji"
#:
#"TVTV admirably succeeded in producing a document of the times that remains a classic"
#:
#"The TV Lab also includes in its support video documentary, "nonfiction" television. In February, 1974, WNET broadcast "The Lord of the Universe", a documentary about the guru Maharaj Ji, made by Top Value Television (TVTV). It was a landmark in broadcast television because it was the first time an entire documentary was made for broadcast from 1/2-inch wide video tape."
#:
#"Out of TV Lab came productions that were radically off-center from other television programming, and that today are landmarks in the history of independent video and the medium of television. As noted in one history of art and television: "THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE, for example, a documentation of Guru Maharaj Ji's Millennium '73 revival meeting at the Houston Astrodome by Michael Shamberg's TVTV [Top Value Television] group, was edited at the TV Lab. This was the first program originally made on 1/2-inch video tape to be broadcast nationally." 
#:
#"a fascinating hour documentary on the guru's three-day happening at the Houston Astrodome"
#:
More examples can be given upon request.  Cirt (talk) 05:47, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Reasons not to include

message: I would opine that it would look better if there could be some quotation cited which mentions it as a satire or satirical. (Quotation meaning from the body of the text of an article, not a database parameter.) That being said, if only one or two sources would characterize it as such, it probably would be more likely to merit that mention in the Responses section of the article, not in the lead or similar areas which attempt an objective and POV discussion of the film. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 06:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay we've gotten some good outside feedback here from  and , as well as some additional input/rationale from  - anyone object to closing this RfC at this point?  Cirt (talk) 05:46, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

text: We can close it indeed, and I see that someone has already done so. As per the feedback given, a mention in Reception section of the article would be appropriate. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:11, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Also note that I have written to MDB AMG with an inquiry about the sudden change of categorization, and they will be responding in a few weeks as per their reply. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:13, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI, The Lord of the Universe entry at The New York Times, again, itself a reference to All Movie Guide, also no longer mentions any sort of parody/spoof/satire genre, but reads: Genre: Biography, Religions & Belief Systems.  And what is "MDB" ?  Do you mean you wrote to AMG?  Cirt (talk) 06:16, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, AMG. I will wait for their response and post it here when I receive it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:21, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay.  Cirt (talk) 06:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Responses

message: Why is this topic deserving of an article?173.21.65.42 (talk) 03:28, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not? Tbhotch* ۩ ۞ 03:30, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There's an entire project here at Wikipedia dedicated to Prem Rawat, and he's been the subject of great controversy, not only from the claims made in this video that he would start a new era of peace on earth at the Astrodome, or that aliens would also be attending the festival. If you've seen the video you would understand it's relevance to the entire "Prem Rawat Situation" as it stands. -- Maelefique (talk) 07:22, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why? 

message: In the first paragraph, the article states that there are interviews with "several protagonists" yet the very definition of the word protagonist is that there is only one, proto being Greek for first.  I would normally just change this but there appears to be regular controversy over these articles so thought I'd post here first. 81.106.96.206 (talk) 14:18, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protagonists 

message: someone fix this please --91.32.116.9 (talk) 15:57, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks fine to me, what's the problem? -- Maelefique (talk) 23:55, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox messed up 

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thread_title:  External links modified