Talk:Middle Chinese

message: The Unihan Database gives both "ɑ" and "a" in romanizations of Tang Dynasty pronunciations. Is there a difference between these two vowels or do they both mean a regular "a" phoneme, and just an inconsistency in their typing? 
An example of their use of "ɑ" can be found here and "a" is found here. Badagnani (talk) 02:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Unicode Database says "derived from various sources" in regard to the Tang pronunciations. In the unihan.txt file, it tells you that other than the kIRG- prefixed data fields, all other data is provisional, and cannot be taken as accurate.  The answer to your question therefore lies in where the data comes from. Unicode's page,  is not forthcoming, nor is there any info about it on the unihan.txt file. Dylanwhs (talk) 06:52, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I don't have Stimson's book, so I can't help verify any reading provided in Unihan.txt. I guess the methodology he must have used to get to his reconstructed readings is found there.  gives a listing of those reading in Unihan.txt. Dylanwhs (talk) 22:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Each letter of the IPA gives some phonologically different property, whether they be consonants, vowels or diacritic marks. Whether or not Stimson's use of IPA is correct or not one had to careful with free unchecked data. Dylanwhs (talk) 22:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I managed to obtain a copy of Stimson's 55 Tang Poems, and the short introduction tells you mostly about Stimson's reconstruction. However, the system in 55TP is a simplification of the Tang Poetic Vocabulary readings, such that certain rimes are grouped together. For example in 55TP the -om/-op rime are a conflation of both 覃 (-om) and 談 (-ɑm) rimes in TVP etc. This is shown by the kTang data which derives from TVP not 55TP. Dylanwhs (talk) 13:36, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, the introduction to Tang Poetic Vocabulary gives a system that distinguishes all the traditional finals, and gives groups of finals that may be unified, though he says he's not unifying them in that book.  Kanguole 21:13, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Unihan Tang Dynasty pronunciations

message: (UPDATE) I think the table should be consistent with the one in the Chinese article about the "36 initals" and the English rime table article to eliminate confusion between them. So it should look a lot like this - 60.53.47.157 (talk) 06:13, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phonology table 

message: Why among all of the scholars whose systems appear here is William Baxter not one?Tibetologist (talk) 08:30, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to have been remedied now. 08:34, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: William Baxter

message: :Category:Extinct languages of Asia is itself a category within :Category:Extinct languages. — Robert Greer (talk) 09:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Extinct languages]] ''vs.'' [[:Category:Extinct languages of Asia]]  

message: * 李白 月下獨酌 中古漢語朗讀
* 李白 將進酒 中古漢語朗讀
* 李白 靜夜思 中古漢語朗讀
* 杜甫 佳人 中古漢語朗讀
* 崔顥 黃鶴樓 中古漢語朗讀
* 李白 清平調 lix brak, chieng bieng deuh Arilang   talk 12:40, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Video for discussion

message: What would really help here, more than the rhyme-tables, is a transcription of a text (preferably a poem, for obvious reasons) into the various reconstructions used, much like the Example passages at Latin Spelling and Pronunciation. I would recommend a text either by Du Fu or Li Bai from the 唐詩三百首, since these are both (a) very well known to native Chinese and (b) often used in texts for students studying classical Chinese as a second language. If there are no objections, I'll go ahead and do this. Or someone else can if they feel inclined.
Also, it would be nice to have corresponding audio recordings which attempt to put the various reconstructions into practice. I can do this, too, if there are no objections.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Szfski (talk • contribs) 02:20, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exemplars? 

message: I think adding English translations of Chinese terminology detracts from the quality of these articles, for instance 重紐 chóngniǔ as 'repeated button' in this one, and 韻目 yùnmù was translated as 'rime eye' in the Qieyun article. This is plainly inaccurate and silly. Anyone can babelfish the meaning of the individual common modern meaning. If you're unsure or don't know the reasons why the character was chosen, in these cases 紐 and 目, then don't translate. For your information, 紐 is related bonds as in realtionships rather than buttons. 目 on the other hand derives from lists (biaomu) rather than eye. Dylanwhs (talk) 23:44, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't do those translations myself.  rime eye wasn't added by me at all (AFAI remember), while "repeated button" comes from another paper on Old and Middle Chinese.  Rather than not translate them, I think it's better to just translate them right.  For example, in place of "repeated button" maybe you should say "repeated connection" or "paired connection" or "bound pair" or something, whatever seems to you to most accurately convey the meaning.  I do think it's useful to give the English meaning of Chinese terms, and for many people it makes the material much more approachable. Benwing (talk) 10:05, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: We need to be careful to use translations given by our sources, to avoid the risk of interpretation.  I think these ones were, though they are very literal.  And even literal translations can be helpful, provided they're marked as such.  Kanguole 12:31, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

text: The gloss "button" is given by Norman (1988) and Baxter (1992), who say that 紐 niǔ refers to the small circle used to delimit homophone groups in the Guangyun.  Kanguole 15:07, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, I agree that if a source gives a translation, use that one.  Otherwise probably a literal translation is best -- it minimizes interpretation, since the interpretation is only in choosing among possible definitions if there is more than one. Benwing (talk) 15:38, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  English translations of Chinese terminology 

message: Wondering why 喻 is used for /j/. 174.27.253.240 (talk) 01:17, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  /j/ is called 以 or 喻? 

message: initial	William H. Baxter,"ASCII-friendly" notation	Bernhard Karlgren
Karlgren definitely never used IPA symbols. Consequently the table with these headings is very misleading. Also, by giving a column just called 'initial' it suggets that this column is the truth, which Baxter and Karlgren interpret somehow. Such a perspective is absurd.. If anything the first column should have Chinese characters in it and the Karlgren column should have the symbols which Karlgren actually used. Tibetologist (talk) 09:15, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Problem with transcription in Table

message: What are these, who does them, and how are they made?  They look like another presentation of the Qieyun data, in a system showing pinyin influence.  Kanguole 17:36, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tang reconstructions? 

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