Talk:Transnistria/Archive 9

message: Proposition: I suggest to move the sections History and Population right after Political Status. Then, also reverse the order of the sections Economy with International Relations.:Dc76 00:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Changing the order of some sections to a more logicl one? 

message: Proposition: Subsection "Ethnicity" contains: Throughout most of its modern history, Transnistria was home to three major groups, roughly equal in numbers: Russians and Ukrainians as well as a Moldovan plurality. Below it is a table that suggests very clear that the words roughly equal in numbers do not represnt what is throughout most of its modern history. To avoid this self-contradiction, I suggest to formulate the sentance as this: Throughout most of its modern history, Transnistria was home to three major groups: Russians and Ukrainians as well as a Moldovan plurality. without going into details, which anyway are in the table just below it.:Dc76 01:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Better still: Throughout most of its modern history, Transnistria was home to three major groups: Russians, Ukrainians and Moldovans and then, like you say, let the stats speak for themselves. - Mauco 18:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: what's wrong with plurality, is it not true?:Dc76 03:16, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am taking your own suggestion to its logical conclusion: Just keep it as simple as possible, and let the numbers speak for themselves. Besides, many non-native speakers of English are not immediately aware of what the word "plurality" means. It is a bit technical, whereas the numbers themselves are easy to grasp. - Mauco 14:06, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here's simple... home to and absolute majority of Romanians for hundreds of years as the primary ethnic inhabitants. "Roughly equal numbers" paints a heterogenity that absolutely did not exist. — Pēters J. Vecrumba active talk 03:27, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, so modern history should become recent history, because otherwise we have to say majority, as Vecrumba pointed out. Then it's only plurality (after 1959). BTW, Transnistrian authorities do not deny that, they even placed "Moldovan" in the title of the entity.:Dc76 16:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Section Population

message: Proposition: In the text one can find this: In 1941, after Axis forces invaded Bessarabia in the course of the Second World War, they cut-off the Soviet troops around Odessa.... Replace Bessarabia by Soviet Union, since there was no country Bessarabia in 1941, and Odessa is not in Bessarabia.:Dc76 01:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Section History

message: This discussion is about: Degree to which we mention as factors in the founding of Transnistria:
*Communist power-players 
*Pro-Moscow but non-communist or anti-communist players 
*Communist nostalgists in the general populace 
*People (presumably Slavs) who feared Moldovan nationalism ?
Proposition: In the previous discussion, Mauco suggested that this sentance looks rediculous in formulation, and must be changed. I suggested to reformulate the same thing in normal language. Mauco did not say yet neither yes, nor no. So, the proposition is, to replace The PMR remained under the effective authority, or at the very least under the decisive influence, of Russia, and in any event it survived by virtue of the military, economic, financial and political support that Russia gave it. by Russia gave and gives PMR political, economic, financial, and military support, without which PMR leadership would not have survived. This is in the section Political Status.:Dc76 22:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do we know for a fact that without Russian help, PMR leadership wouldn't have survived? Please explain. There are many (including PMR leadership) who are eager to point out that they are able to survive on their own and don't need anyone else. Are they right? We don't know. But to say that they wouldn't have survived without Russian support is also a bit in the "don't know" category, and certainly in the "not proven" category... - Mauco 23:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I mean PMR leadership, not Transnistria. I doubt anyone here believes that Transnistria would not have obtained a large degree of autonomy anyway.:Dc76 03:35, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Attempts for autonomy were made by Russian-speaking population also in other Soviet Republics. For example in Narva in Estonia, where 93,85% of population are Russian-speakers and 86,41% are ethnic Russian, the city being near the Russian border (easy to be included in Russia). It didn't succeed. We can not make assumptions about what would happen in Transnistria without the involvement of Russian citizens, we can only remark the role those person had in Transnistrian separatism.--MariusM 08:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Regarding the proposed sentence above, it sounds to me like analysis that wikipedia editors are not qualified to provide. Instead of saying that the PMR "survived by virtue of the military, economic, financial and political support that Russia gave it," pick indicators and present data. What financial and economic support has been rendered? Loans? Subsidized energy? Investment? At this point, that section of the article is weak, vague, and not sourced. Unless you can cite someone who has done the work and supports that analysis, data is more convincing. jamason 15:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion on Jmabel's list: ''factors in the founding of Transnistria'' 

message: Please, continue the general discussion here, but include in the previous 7 sections only very precise suggestions/observations. General non-sense stuff goes here:
Here is a joke:
*(in Romania, during communist times) Comrade Lenin said this, comrade Stalin said that, comrade Marx said this!
*All right, we see that you know them. But do you have your own oppionion?
*Yes, I do, but I don't agree with it! :-) :Dc76 03:40, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hammer and slammer your pal here. :) Don't add it in the point by point discussion. 

message: This mouthful needs its own section. Regarding Mark Street's: "Don't confuse the frustrations of Transnistrian people (with the deadlock their leadership has pushed them into) and the frustrations of the present Transnistrian regime (with the fact that democracy is not subject to dialectical materialism)."
* There is no deadlock, it is an embrace, a tango, a ballet—which I would completely expect to be extraordinarily frustrating to the people living through it.
* As for frustrations of the "Transnistrian regime", of whom are you speaking? Stated in the opposite sense, autocracy is subject to dialectical materialism, that is, in and of itself, by being itself, it eventually brings into being its exact opposite (that is, democracy). I am stumped by your assertion that the PMR authorities are frustrated that (in simple terms) democracy does not turn into autocracy over time. That would imply there is a real democracy, which is simply not the case. (In fact, it is the afore-mentioned frustration—but not for the dynamic you indicated—of Transnistria's inhabitants which is one of the precursors to eventually achieving the state of affairs I indicated above.)
* Finally, your premise that democracy is not subject to dialectical materialism is empirically disproven. One only has to look to all the autocracies that took hold in the mid-20th century where there had formerly been democracies (and the admiration for them, before it all went terribly wrong). Even in the U.S., Roosevelt was handed autocratic rule on a plate, which he refused. That is, when democratic institutions are seen by the majority to be failing, democracy is held hostage to human nature seeking strong decisive leadership under those circumstances—there is no psycho-political basis to maintain that democracies are self-perpetuating—which would be the logical outcome of democracies "not being subject to" dialectical materialism.
I've approached your statement from the simplest Hegelian view of dialectical materialism. If you mean specifically dialectical materialism as formulated by Marx with reference to bourgeousie capitalism inevitably and of necessity giving birth to communism in the collapse of bourgeousie thought and bourgeousie society, then I'm totally lost by your intent. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 19:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Let us give it a break here, please. I find Hegel very difficult to read (I once spent 2 hours to understand 4 pages), and your remarks above confuse me even more. Have it your way. With one exception: although it is well-known that the term "dialectics" was introduced by Hegel, I doubt he ever used "dielectical materialism":Dc76 20:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, carried away, in retrospect subconsciously it could have been a subtle parody, for which I apologize. Dialectical materialism was in fact Marx (who conjoined the previously separate terms), but Marx didn't fit, so I just figured Mark Street meant Hegel's everything eventually becomes its opposite. I agree totally, Hegel's writing makes undiscovered super-heavy elements look about as dense as marshmallows. (And let me enjoy my metaphor, I know atoms are mostly empty space...) —Pēters J. Vecrumba 22:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dialectical Materialism 

message: These are the two most pressing issues in PMR and should take the main areas on the main page Mark us street Nov15th 2006
:As I mentioned above, in regard to EU's position on that I suggest to use among other sourses the European Parliament’s Resolution on Moldova (Transnistria) from 26 October 2006
:So we need also USA, OSCE, Russia, Ukraine, Romania, Moldova and the self-proclaimed authorities' positions. Suggestions for sourses on that?:Dc76 18:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:   Customs Blockade and The Independence referendum 

message: Moldovan interests on this page inserted the word 'Terrorism' on the main page under huge dispute.  An External editing chair agreed to withdraw that word but the page locked within hours of change due to be made. Regardless, Moldvoan interests claimed the use of the word 'Terrorism' was valid because the Chair of State Security used it when the explosion occured.I always felt he was be misquoted and the Terrorism word was  being used to blacken Transnistria. Today I prove this was a typical Moldovan propaganda attack on the main page of Wikipedia..  Yesterday The chairman gave an interview where he clarified this misuse of his quote . I quote him. "Q":  The past summer in Tiraspol' thundered two explosions, which led to human victims. What did be possible to establish in the course of consequence? Full interview on Presidents webpage,
Oleg Gusymo .: Explosion in the route taxi became bloodiest. Consequence still is conducted, and to say that the specific forces cost after this action, 4 I do not have a right. There is a secret of consequence. As far as explosion in the trolley bus is concerned, this crime is practically opened, consequence is located on the completing stage. Materials will be transmitted into the law court. There the version, close to the everyday..Mark us street Nov 20th 2006.
:You should understand that Wikipedia is not a place to advertise your newspaper. You can wrtie whatever you want in Tiraspol Times, but you should not expect that Wikipedia will have the same position.--MariusM 14:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:   Tiraspoltimes is not the source of this quotation. You are infatuated with Tiraspoltimes.You never stop inadvertantly advertising Tiraspol Times here, You mention it non- stop,  should pay you I in euro or dollars. Mark us street Nov 20th2006.
I read the Gudymo interview too, Mark. You are right. Crime and violent events happen everywhere, and the T-word is overused anyway. If anything, less crime happens in Transnistria than similar places. It is sad when things blow up but it should not be blown out of proportion either. Hats off to BOTH MOLDOVA AND TRANSNISTRIA for the restraint showed. It is easy to let radical groups on either side take things to the next level: Just look at Kashmir, Palestine, FARC/ELN in Colombia, Northern Ireland, and dozens of other places where proxies blow things up on purpose. We don't have that in Transnistria, and we don't have that in Moldova, and both sides should be thankful for the restraint showed by the other. Let us use the same restraint here on Wikipedia: No use of the word "terrorism" when that is clearly not the case. - Mauco 01:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: This is now forked in three places on the same page. Give it a rest. Antyufeyev, minister or not, is not a reliable source regarding "terrorism." The fact that the New York Times quotes Antyufeyev in no way lends credibility to Antyufeyev. It is not the analysis of the New York Times that it's not terrorism, so the fact they reported what they did does not help us "know" anything. Just as when you quote Mark Almond, there's no endorsement of anything he says by Oxford University. "Terrorism" stays.  —Pēters J. Vecrumba 05:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terrorism 

message: Transnistria is famous for these lets do a section Mark us street Nov 22nd 2006
: Perhaps a summary in the main article, but any level of detail should be in Economy of Transnistria which is how similar pages elsewhere in Wikipedia handle it. - Mauco 20:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Moldova is renowned for its good wine. In Moldova article is briefly mentioned wine and there is a link at Moldovan wine article. Mark, you can propose to that article whatever change you believe is good, but don't mix wine with politics, please ("97% of Transnistrian wine drinkers want ...").--MariusM 22:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That was actually funny, MariusM. Thanks for my smile-of-the-day. But, to get serious - will anyone start the Economy of Transnistria article? I would do it, but I hate to get tagged as the guy who created 97% of the Transnistria pages on Wikipedia. I am already at around 80% so far, so I would prefer to let another editor take the lead on this particular one. - Mauco 00:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope you will not put in Economy of Transnistria article stuffs like "Sheriff, which is in big oposition with Smirnov".--MariusM 00:36, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  MariusM has a sense of humour. I laughed too,  Agreed, no politics or words that offend ,just a wine and cognac article Mark us street Nov 22nd 2006
Is there enough for a whole article, can't we just add to the economy section already there if there's anything new?Jonathanpops 15:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wine and Cognacs