Talk:Arthur Nebe

message: This bio of arthur Nebe looks like it was just taken straight of the pages of the book Fatherland. Shouldn't there be a more definitive source on him, not just a paragraph taken from a book?
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I've understood that it's a myth that Nebe and others involved in the plot we're hanged with piano wire.
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The biography of Arthur Nebe is a very difficult one to write. Myth, weak sources to what actually lay behind his decisions and a very contradictionary set of facts. First a well renowned crime fighter within the Weimar democracy, then at a rather late stage (1931) a member of the DNSAP and a blitz-krieg avancement through the system in the Nazi State from 1933. An then again, at the time when everything looked bright for the 3rd. Reich, in the late 30thies he turned against the regime - the same so from 1939-1942 when even more conservative forces within Preussia and Die Wermacht became impressed with the impressive results in France, the early advance in Russia etc. etc.
It is known (sources, please) that he tried to avoid being associated with the Einsatz Gruppen, even before operation Barbarossa, knowing that it would make him responsible for unbelievable crimes against humanity. And that he was persuaded by other anti-hitler associates to take the position (sources please).
In Easterne Europe and Russia it is known that his Einsatz Gruppe did not kill nearly as many as expected and that he exagerated the results in his reports and thereby probably saved thousands of civilians, while being directly responsible for the murder of thousands of others.
It is not the wiki's job to judge: Hero or murder. But when writing this article we can hope that over time some of us will be able to find better sources to cast light onto the history of Arthur Nebe. Was he playing on two horses, was he - from 1938 - only a nazi by name but in reality a trojan horse for the resistance?
I will try to gather better sources and more information and hope to be able to help improving this article. Arthur Nebe is probably a good looking glass to see through if you dont just want a black or white picture of Germany 1933-1945.
--Carsten Levin (talk) 11:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Untitled 

message: Criminal Police isn't a very good translation and it would be more correct to use a term like CID or Detective police.(Morcus (talk) 17:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point; I edited it a little. Salmanazar (talk) 16:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criminal Police 

message: From German wikipedia (my translation):
:In biographies, for instance in DER SPIEGEL, in the writings of his friend Hans Bernd Gisevius, or in research on the holocaust, he is always called Arthur (no initial) Nebe.
--Alex1011 (talk) 14:38, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A Google Books search gives 590 results for "Arthur Nebe" and 161 for "Artur Nebe". Are "Arthur" and "Artur" different names in Germany, is is "Artur" just a variant spelling of "Arthur"? Salmanazar (talk) 16:30, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: He must have had one official name, either "Arthur" or "Artur" (the pronunciation of both name variants is the same in German). --Alex1011 (talk) 13:07, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The only way it could be confirmed would be to see an image of his birth certificate or NSDAP card. But if Gisevius refers to him as "Artur" that would seem a strong indication that "Artur" is correct. Salmanazar (talk) 11:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but according to German wiki discussion page, Gisevius wrote "Arthur", I did not check that myself. --Alex1011 (talk) 08:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've now checked using Google Books. Gisevius' "To the Bitter End"  is searchable in "snippet" view, which is enough to confirm "Arthur" rather than "Artur". The same is true for the original German language version.. So, "Arthur" would seem to be correct, and the article should be moved appropriately. Salmanazar (talk) 10:32, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have redirected to Arthur Nebe. --Alex1011 (talk) 09:10, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved the Talk page to match. Salmanazar (talk) 14:00, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arthur 

message: Assuming Nebe survived the war and was brought to an international tribunal, say along the Nuremberg model, what do contributors think the judgement would have been? Would Nebe's work for the resistance mitigate against his role as head of an Einsatzgruppen?
:Adolf Hitler survived the assassination attempt. More than 45.000 Soviet civilians who were killed by the Einsatzgruppe B under Arthur Nebe's command did not. Still questions? -- 88.64.217.77 (talk) 17:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verdict against Nebe had he survived WW2? 

message: Is it for sure that Nebe was president of Interpol as mentioned in the final frame of this article?? --Ttzavaras (talk) 20:02, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  President of Interpol 

message: Original text: 
"Foreseeing the crimes in which he would be involved, he tried to escape it by asking for a move to the International Police Commission but is said to have been persuaded by Ludwig Beck and Hans Oster to accept the appointment, which would place him in a position where he could give them information on what was happening inside the SS and the Gestapo." 
I will go ahead and remove the Hoffmann reference, as his work does not include Nebe in the index of personalities. Given what happened with the references around Gerlach and Reitlinger (see above section) and that the page is not specified, I assume this is another case of misuse / misrepresentation of reliable sources.
If I'm mistaken in my assumption, please provide page number for Hoffmann's reference. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:59, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the removal. Kierzek (talk) 16:29, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hoffmann 

message: The article contains extensive quoting in the Einsatzgruppe B section: 
....The idea of the gas van originated with SS-Brigadeführer Artur Nebe [sic], commander of Einsatzgruppe B, which operated in territories close to the central front and which had carried out in Belorussia large-scale shooting actions of Jews, communists, and other "asocial elements".  Nebe...was familiar with the euthanasia program and killing by gas.
In September 1941, Einsatzgruppe B was faced with the task of liquidating the patients of the lunatic asylums in the cities of Minsk and Mogilev. Nebe decided to find a simpler way for his men to kill the mentally diseased, other than by shooting them.  He contacted Kripo headquarters and asked for their help in carrying out the killing of the insane with either explosives or poison gas. Dr. Widmann of the Criminal Police was sent to Nebe in Minsk, but before he left, Dr. Widmann discussed with the director of the Criminal Police Technological Institute, Dr. Heess, ways of using the carbon monoxide gas from automobile exhaust for killing operations in the East, based on the experience gained from the euthanasia program.  Dr. Widmann took to Minsk 400 kgs of explosive material and the metal pipes required for the gassing installations.
Nebe and Dr. Widmann carried out an experimental killing using explosives.  Twenty-five mentally ill people were locked into two bunkers in a forest outside Minsk.  The first explosion killed only some of them, and it took much time and trouble until the second explosion killed the rest.  Explosives therefore were unsatisfactory.
A few days later an experiment with poison gas was carried out by Nebe and Dr. Widmann in Mogilev.  In the local lunatic asylum, a room with twenty to thirty of the insane was closed hermetically, and two pipes were driven into the wall.  A car was parked outside, and one of the metal pipes that Dr. Widmann had brought connected the exhaust of the car to the pipe in the wall.  The car engine was turned on and the carbon monoxide began seeping into the room.  After eight minutes, the people in the room were still alive.  A second car was connected to the other pipe in the wall.  The two cars were operated simultaneously, and a few minutes later all those in the room were dead.
After these experimental executions, Nebe came up with the idea of constructing a car with a hermetically sealed cabin for killing purposes.  The carbon monoxide from the car's exhaust would be channeled into the sealed cabin, in which the victims stood.  Nebe discussed the technical aspects of the idea with Dr. Heess and together they brought the proposal before Heydrich, who adopted it.
What should be done about this? I do believe some 'blockquote' treatment is appropriate, since the gas van is perhaps what Nebe is 'best known' for. But some of it can perhaps be converted to a narrative. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:41, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Try to re-write in a narrative where you can. I agree, I would keep the one as to history of use of the infamous gas vans. Kierzek (talk) 00:46, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extensive quoting 

message: I'd like to submit this for assessment as a MILHIST article - I believe it qualifies, right?
There are two areas that I don't have RS for:
* From 1918–19, he was a member of the Freikorps.
* Following the Nazi seizure of power, Daluege recommended Nebe to the position of Chief Executive of the State Police in April 1933. In October 1933 Nebe was ordered by Rudolf Diels, then head of the Gestapo, to arrange the liquidation of Hitler's rival Gregor Strasser.
Does anyone have sources to confirm this? If not, then I think the first point is fairly minor and can be dropped. On the second one - I'm not sure. I have a feeling that these details may have originated with the account by Gisevius, so I'm a bit skeptical, plus there's no follow up: what happened? Did Nebe do something? K.e.coffman (talk) 03:09, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I will go ahead and remove. The statements can be retrieved through the article history, if anyone indeed has the sources. K.e.coffman (talk) 06:14, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uncited statement 

message: Changed some spellings before noticing that it's in American and may have missed some when I changed them back. Used {{quote| for consistency with sfns, removed synonyms and commentary about historians' comments (I think it's a fact that "he wrote" but not a fact that "he concluded" unless he wrote that he did). The results are believed to have reached Himmler. is a bit weasel, "He wrote that..." might be better. Feel free to revert anything as desired. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 10:16, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Ke, I doubt that with the new wording anyone will wonder who is having the insights. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 09:14, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: As I stated in my edit summary two RS books state the same thing that it was "believed" or presumed the results were reported by Nebe to Himmler but there is no definitive statement as to it having been done, so that is why I removed it. By the way, the article is shaping up nicely, gentlemen. Kierzek (talk) 12:52, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

text: I see no reason not to report speculation from RS but I was uneasy about the wording, because I wasn't sure whose it was. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 13:12, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It does not add anything in the end and is only speculation; the more important point which followed shortly thereafter as to the conversion/use of gas vans was shown to have been reported to Heydrich and the RSHA. Kierzek (talk) 14:43, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  CE 

message: This is copy paste from my Talk page:
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 Hello: I have just completed a first editorial pass of the article on Arthur Nebe. I will do a second pass tomorrow. I wanted to draw your attention to a number of things that I found so far while editing.
In the "Head of Kripo" section, I may have missed it, but what does “SD” at the end of this sentence mean? "At that point, Reinhard Heydrich was in overall command of the SiPo (Gestapo and Kripo) and the SD."
Possibly flesh out why Nebe had an “aversion” to Heydrich and Himmler? Did Heydrich report to Himmler? It’s not clear why he would be lunching with both of them.
Did the Nazis really use the term “reservations” ("…to the planned reservations for the Jews and others…") to refer to what we refer to as concentration camps? I think that the term “reservations” refers solely to Native Americans’ homesteads.
Killing Operations section – “Einsatzgruppe B's activities were also stymied by inefficiencies.” – needs clarification.
New Killing Methods section –  “Nebe discussed the technical aspects of the idea with Dr. Heess…” – who is Dr. Heess??
In the meantime, please let me know if you have any questions or concerns. I'll continue working tomorrow.
Kind regards,
Twofingered Typist (talk) 22:27, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your comments. I've clarified the issues in the article. "Reservations" was indeed the term that the source used so I kept it as is. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:15, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  CE questions 

message: For future use 
*"Getting History Right": East and West German Collective Memories, on Der Fall Nebe, 1960s TV program. 
K.e.coffman (talk) 04:10, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potential source 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Transcribed in part from user talk page
He was never a Obergruppenführer; it is cited in the article, as well. But look at the rank collar tabs at the article Gruppenführer and you will have the "photographic" evidence. Post April 1942 SS rank collar tabs. Also, the Wikimedia copy of Nebe's photo that is used states it is a portrait of Arthur Nebe in uniform of SS-Gruppenführer (Porträt Arthur Nebe in Uniform als SS-Gruppenführer mit Orden). Kierzek (talk) 23:59, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a pre-changeover Obergruppenfuhrer insignia. I've added a citation for both his rank and his place in the RSHA. I'm not sure what else you want. LargelyRecyclable (talk) 00:08, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: No its not pre-change over. I also used the (copy of the) Official SS rank book published in Germany for the article RS cite. Look at it the rank collar tabs, again. Kierzek (talk) 00:13, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I've looked again and you're probably right about the insignia as his lacks the extended branch. Still, without an RS it's interpretive. I'm fine with the caption as it is, how about you?. Still, we run into the problem of him being ID's as both an Obergruppenfuhrer and a Gruppenfuhrer in various sources. Do you have an idea on where to start with a source that is definitive? LargelyRecyclable (talk) 00:21, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

text: That's awesome, thank you! Do you have a link we could reference? LargelyRecyclable (talk) 00:35, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the primary index of RG 242 . -O.R.Comms 00:37, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you seen the corresponding microfilm or do you know where it can be found online? LargelyRecyclable (talk) 02:29, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Its not online, they are stored on physical microfilm at the National Archives at College Park.  But, yes, I have seen them. Even have a copy of Nebe's record somewhere.  He was indeed a G-Fhr. -O.R.Comms 03:19, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, OberRanks. The book I used for RS citing in the article, which I mention above, is a copy of the official SS produced "Dienstalterliste". This was commissioned by Himmler and lists the hundreds of officers in the SS from full Colonel to General. Kierzek (talk) 12:31, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arthur Nebe's rank 

message: The introduction makes up a difference as if there was a local Berlin police force. That is false, as Berlin police always was a part of prussian police force. In fact Berlin police was a state, not a local body. --129.187.244.19 (talk) 07:29, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Berlin and Prussian police forces 

message: Some quick first thoughts:
*In the Bibliography either all books should have a publisher location or none.
*"The SS – Alibi of a Nation 1922–1945": I am doubtful about that first en dash. This work seems to be normally rendered as The SS: Alibi of a Nation 1922–1945 or sometimes, and unusually, The SS, Alibi of a Nation 1922–1945.
*Gill's An Honourable Defeat seems to have lost its formatting. But it isn't used. Does it need deleting?
More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. I've addressed these issues. I also gave the article a light c/e and clarified some language. I'm done with the c/e for now. Looking forward to other comments. PS: there's a sentence that appears to have lost a citation; I'll look for it later. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:31, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre-FAC check comments 

message: The following broken reference: "/ last = Gill / first =Anton / Anton Gill / title = An Honourable Defeat / publishers = HarperCollins, Henry Holt 1994/1995/ " was added to the article's bibliography in January this year as User:Antongill48's only contributions to Wikipedia - it is currently unused, but from what I can see from Google books appears tohave at least some content about Nebe - whether it adds to the article may be a different matter.Nigel Ish (talk) 16:18, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you; I removed the stray code. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:05, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "An Honourable Defeat" - bookspam? 

message: The statement that Nebe took part in Elser's interrogation is currently tagged - it is cited in Elser's article, and also appears to backed up by the Google books snippets from the Anton Gill book mentioned above.Nigel Ish (talk) 10:20, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Georg Elser]] interrogation 

message: Hi all. I am starting a review and copy edit of this article as requested. I will be on the bold side with the copy editing, so if I get anything wrong, or you don't understand why I have made a change, don't hesitate to flag it up here.
*"Nebe volunteered for military service" Is it known when? I have assumed WWI.
*According to MOS:FOREIGNITALIC "A proper name is usually not italicized when it is used". So are we treating Kriminalpolizei, Kripo, Schutzstaffel, Einsatzgruppe B, Gruppenführer etc as proper names? They are currently treated inconsistently. If they are not then  labels should be used, not just italics code.
*"He later obtained the rank of SS-Gruppenführer" Is it known when?
Gog the Mild (talk) 13:55, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre-FAC copy edit 

message: The last sentence in the lede is "The hypothesis that Nebe's motivations were based on anything other than Nazi ideology have since been discredited by historians who describe him as an opportunist and a mass murderer driven by racism and careerism." This contradicts itself - if he was "an opportunist", driven by "careerism" - than that suggests that he had motivations other than Nazi ideology (i.e. looking after himself). Clearly his involvement in the July 20 plot, whether motivated by self preservation or not, does not seem to be based on Nazism. Perhaps a slight reword?Nigel Ish (talk) 10:19, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  lede - last sentence contradicts itself 

message: The article currently uses infobox criminal which, if take on its own, implies a false link between his major crimes (i.e. mass murder while in charge of Einsatzgruppe B, involvement in euthanasia etc) and his execution. In fact his major crimes were carried out with the approval and under the explicit command of those who ordered his execution, while his execution was due to his participation in the July Plot. This is a case where trying to cram info into infoboxes loses these sorts of nuances.Nigel Ish (talk) 09:59, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox criminal 

message: The information "The English Wikipedia page about Nebe formerly falsely claimed that he "reduce[d] the atrocities committed" by his forces. This claim remained in the article until editor Ksenia Coffman removed it." is sourced to multiple reliable secondary sources as an example of apologetics for Nebe. Do these sources not represent sufficient notability to include this information? CJ-Moki (talk) 19:55, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This is meant to be an article about Authur Nebe, rather than about Wikipedia - we do not report about every single incorrect statement that has been made over the lifetime of the article - that just distracts from what the article is doing which is presenting what is known about a rather unpleasant war criminal. We need to be very careful about appearing to use article space to promote editors here.Nigel Ish (talk) 20:53, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Edit conflict. The reply in edit summary by Nigel Ish is correct. It is part of the job of Wikipedia editors to correct and edit information in articles when necessary, sometimes on a regular basis. The article is about a certain individual, Nebe, not Wikipedia editors. Kierzek (talk) 20:59, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia mention in Apologetics section