Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 40

message: What is the basis for this total sum? What constitutes a "genocide" killing? Is this an assertion, a claim, a shot in the dark, a bolt from the blue? It does not appear to be sourced, and in as much as it features prominently right towards the front of a very long article, it should be a well established figure. I notice there's quite a dispute going on over at the Stalin discussion page over how extensive the Soviet genocide was, yet here the article is stopped dead in its tracks and we calmly accpt this figure. Muttley-Media 22:46, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think muttley-media is looking for the figure to be sourced.--Shtove 20:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  11 Million Killed in Genocide 

message: Firstly with regards to the religious debate, there are far too many assumptions about Hitler's religious convictions. The article should only contain verifiable facts such as dates and actual statements by Hitler himself or those close to him. Too much speculation and poorly sourced claims are asking for trouble. 
Secondly, I have never read anywhere Hitler or any other Nazi claiming Jesus was an Aryan, and any Christian who claims Jesus was a jew, half jew ect. obviously needs to read his/her bible more carefully. It states Jesus was not conceived through the natural means and that his mother Mary was a virgin and died a virgin. 
My last objection is the part which explains the "means oppression" and describing the SS as a mere tool of oppression. What exactly is oppression and by who's definition? One man's oppressor or blasphemor is another man's hero/savior. We can see this double perception even in Christ and his jewish opponents. To some the SS were a deathsquad, others they were knightly soldiers, a sort of modern day Teutonic knighthood valiantly defending their country against the Communist invaders. You cant take one side over the other, that is a POV. I also agree with the complaint with regards to the 11 million figure, it seems like that is just pulled out of thin air. This has always been curious to me as I can surf through 100 different holocaust sites and find different figures on a sizable majority of them, in one demographic or another and there are still holocaust websites to this very day maintaining the Nazis boiled down their jewish victims to use their body fat to make cosmetic products, soap, et nausium. The problem is history and its mainstream perception is all too often influenced by irrational emotion, prejudice and a desire to glorify or vilify, particularly when we're dealing with a tragedy in the magnitude of WW2 and its fallout. Its all too easy to vilify someone you despise regardless of whether its completely factual. The Allies imprisoned hundreds of political dissenters, Nazi supporters, German citizens and thousands upon thousands of Japanese Americans for the duration of the war. The Americans set up a commitee called "the house committee on un-american activities" which oversaw the arrest and imprisonment of countless people, and is actually very little different than the German efforts to weed out dissent in their ranks. Its funny how you never read about any of that in the articles about the Allies during WW2 yet we all seem to go out of our way to ensure the Germans remain the ultimate villain.
Nazrac π  19:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please set up a user page.--Shtove 21:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nazrac, I officially declare your polemic to be a troll. Replying to you would only give unwarranted credence to your diatribe.  DJ Clayworth 21:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A few concerns 

message: I recolect hearing once that Hitler was not his last name of birth, if this is the case than that should be stated in the article, Stalin's page has his original name. Yev900 03:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  hitler's name

message: I have changed the infoxbox to match the other German presidents and to more clearly show the crossover between his time as Chancellor and Führer. However, I don't know what to put in the profession field. Should it be artist or soldier or simply politician? Philip Stevens 11:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Infobox 

message: I have observed that a quote by Sebastian Haffner has been added and removed from both this article and the fork article on religious beliefs. My take on this is that while Haffner is a reputable writer and quite quotable, the view expressed in this quoted is based on dated scholarship, as primarly expressed in the Hitler biography by Allan Bullock. From what we know today it can now longer be upheld. The only possibility of including it would be in a footnote about "misconceptions" alongside of Hitler the occultist, or Hitler the esotericist, or Hitler the neopagan, or Hitler the Catholic. Str1977 (smile back) 13:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Haffner quote

message: Merged Hitler's Religious Beliefs since the content was the same when I looked at it. Any complaints let me know. Themillofkeytone 20:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger 

message: I think it would be useful, in the section on films about Hitler, to have the British and American name for the film, Downfall, in brackets after the name Der Untergang, as readers are unlikely to be aware of it's German name and may therefore miss it.
:Done.Giovanni33 04:43, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Der Untergang 

message: I was looking for a source for the "Heil Schicklgruber"-airdrop when I found . The first part of the text matches almost perfectly with the first part of the Wikipedia article. This leaves a few situations where this could happen:
*The article is a WP:Copyvio.
*Wikipedia had permission to copy it, bu I see no evidence of that.
*The article was taken from Wikipedia and put on the site, in which case their copyright notice on the bottom is wrong.
- Dammit 10:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible copyvio 

message: Now, to back up every one of my points by quoting MK, Hitler's own words, with references below, my comments in parentheses:
"I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal."2 (Hitler admired religious figures).
"I thank Heaven that a portion of the memories of those days still remains with me. Woods and meadows were the battlefields on which the 'conflicts' which exist everywhere in life were decided."3 (Hitler believed in Heaven).
"I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party ... The man and the movement seemed 'reactionary' in my eyes. My common sense of justice, however, forced me to change this judgment in proportion as I had occasion to become acquainted with the man and his work; and slowly my fair judgment turned to unconcealed admiration. Today, more than ever, I regard this man as the greatest German mayor of all times ... How many of my basic principles were upset by this change in my attitude toward the Christian Social movement! My views with regard to anti-Semitism thus succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all."4 (Hitler was inspired to become a radical anti-Semite by the Viennese Christian Social movement, whose attitudes are almost identical to the far-right American Christian fundamentalist movement today).
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."5 (Hitler obviously believed in a supreme being).
"Sooner will a camel pass through a needle's eye than a great man be 'discovered' by an election"6 (Hitler was fond of paraphrasing the Bible (Mark 10:25 in this case), and he does this many, many times elsewhere in the book).
"The root of the whole evil lay, particularly in Schonerer's opinion, in the fact that the directing body of the Catholic Church was not in Germany, and that for this very reason alone it was hostile to the interests of our nationality."7 (affirming that Hitler's only real problem with his childhood religion was the fact that its power base was not in Germany).
"I had so often sung 'Deutschland u:ber Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction."8 (the "divine court of the eternal judge" seems a rather strange idea from anyone but a Judeo-Christian, since Pagan and Eastern religions generally lack any such divine judgemental entity, to say nothing of atheism)
"Certainly we don't have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord's image."9
"Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children."10 (recalling World War I).
"What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe."11 (it would appear that Hitler agreed with modern "intelligent design" creationists on the existence of a Creator).
"Parallel to the training of the body a struggle against the poisoning of the soul must begin. Our whole public life today is like a hothouse for sexual ideas and simulations. Just look at the bill of fare served up in our movies, vaudeville and theaters, and you will hardly be able to deny that this is not the right kind of food, particularly for the youth ... Theater, art, literature, cinema, press, posters, and window displays must be cleansed of all manifestations of our rotting world ..."12 (Jerry Falwell? Is that you?)
"But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I think you will find but few images of God"13 (note that when he says "images of God", he refers to racially pure Aryans; this sentence comes in the context of a diatribe against racial intermixing).
"While both denominations maintain missions in Asia and Africa in order to win new followers for their doctrine-- an activity which can boast but very modest success compared to the advance of the Mohammedan faith in particular-- right here in Europe they lose millions and millions of inward adherents who either are alien to all religious life or simply so their own ways. The consequences, particularly from a moral point of view, are not favorable."14 (Hitler agrees with George W. Bush that religion and morality are intertwined).
"Also noteworthy is the increasingly violent struggle against the dogmatic foundations of the various churches without which in this human world the practical existence of a religious faith is not conceivable ... The attack against dogmas as such, therefore, strongly resembles the struggle against the general legal foundations of a state, and, as the latter would end in a total anarchy of the state, the former would end in a worthless religious nihilism."15 (Hitler, trying to equate criticism of dogma to an assault on civilization)
"The result of all racial crossing is therefore in brief always the following: (a) Lowering of the level of the higher race; (b) Physical and intellectual regression and hence the beginning of a slowly but surely progressing sickness. To bring about such a development is, then, nothing else but to sin against the will of the eternal creator."16 (Hitler tries to define racial intermarriage as defiance of God's will, in exactly the way modern racists do, particularly in the southern American states; indeed, 40% of Alabama voters voted to keep interracial marriage illegal in November 2000)
"And a religion in the Aryan sense cannot be imagined which lacks the conviction of survival after death in some form. Indeed, the Talmud is not a book to prepare a man for the hereafter, but only for a practical and profitable life in this world."17 (Hitler believes in the afterlife, and he agrees with modern Christian fundamentalists about the importance of religious matters over material matters)
"The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation."18 (Hitler demonstrates the common anti-Semitic view that Jesus was an Aryan rather than a Jew, and glowingly described him as "the great founder of the new doctrine".
"The Jew almost never marries a Christian woman; it is the Christian who marries a Jewess ... The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew ... With satanic joy in his face, the black-haired Jewish youth lurks in wait for the unsuspecting girl whom he defiles with his blood, thus stealing her from her people."19 (Hitler echoes Martin Luther's thoughts on Satan and Jewry; note that Hitler openly admired Luther, who wrote the virulent anti-Semitic screed "On Jews And Their Lies", and the infamous Kristallnacht was committed on Luther's birthday. Also note that he reiterates his hatred of intermarriage, but this time on religious rather than racial grounds. He tends to use the terms "German" and "Christian" interchangeably, which makes sense since he believed that Jesus was an Aryan and that true Christianity recognized the supremacy of the Aryan race).
"The future of a movement is conditioned by the fanaticism, yes, the intolerance, with which its adherents uphold it as the sole correct movement, and push it past other formations of a similar sort ... absolute intolerance also provides long growth ... The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which, fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its will against all others."20 (Hitler explains why he thinks religious intolerance is good, agreeing in principle with modern right-wing Christian fundamentalists who bemoan that if they are not intolerant of diversity, their belief system will have no future).
"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."21
"The characteristic thing about these people is that they rave about old Germanic heroism, about dim prehistory, stone axes, spear and shield, but in reality are the greatest cowards that can be imagined. For the same people who brandish scholarly imitations of old German tin swords, and wear a dressed bearskin with bull's horns over their heads, preach for the present nothing but struggle with spiritual weapons, and run away as fast as they can from every Communist blackjack."22 (Hitler's own words demonstrate clearly that despite the common myth that the religion of Nazism was Nordic paganism, he actually regarded the Nordic pagan revival movement with nothing but contempt and derision, and Rosenberg was obviously charting his own path).
"A man who knows a thing, who is aware of a given danger, and sees the possibility of a remedy with his own eyes, has the duty and obligation, by God, not to work 'silently,' but to stand up before the whole public against the evil and for its cure."23 (isn't it interesting that you could easily imagine many of these quotes coming from the mouth of a modern-day preacher?)
"By helping to raise man above the level of bestial vegetation, faith contributes in reality to the securing and safeguarding of his existence. Take away from present-day mankind its education-based, religious-dogmatic principles-- or, practically speaking, ethical-moral principles-- by abolishing this religious education, but without replacing it by an equivalent, and the result will be a grave shock to the foundations of their existence."24 (Hitler equates religious dogma to ethics and morality, again just like modern right-wing intolerant Christians)
"Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise."25 (Hitler believes in the Genesis story of expulsion from Paradise).
"The task of preserving and advancing the highest humanity, given to this earth by the benevolence of the Almighty, seems a truly high mission."26
"A folkish state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape."27 (Hitler believed that Aryans are holy and were created in God's "image", while other races evolved from apes, hence his hatred for racial mixing because it diluted God's image).
"It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly, but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where parents are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on a poor little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother, than themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world."28 (Hitler outlines some of his eugenics ideas; note that he described black humans as "Negroes" and white humans as "European humanity". Like the medieval European Christian conquerors, he obviously thought of black people as sub-human, and he often described Czechs as "sub-humans" as well)
"That this is possible may not be denied in a world where hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily submit to celibacy, obligated and bound by nothing except the injunction of the Church. Should the same renunciation not be possible if this injunction is replaced by the admonition finally to put an end to the constant and continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty Creator beings such as He Himself created?"29 (Hitler believes that racial mixing is an extension of "original sin")
"It doesn't dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture-race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions."30 (again, he repeats his belief that Aryans come from God while other races evolved from apes).
"It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god"31 (just for fun, try asking people whether quotes like this came from Jerry Falwell or Adolf Hitler).
"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."32 (again Hitler repeats his belief that the Aryan race was created by God, and that it would be a sin to dilute it through racial intermixing with inferior races which evolved naturally).
"If the German nation wants to end a state of affairs that threatens its extermination in Europe, it must not fall into the error of the pre-War period and make enemies of God and the world; it must recognize the most dangerous enemy and strike at him with all its concentrated power. And if this victory is obtained through sacrifices elsewhere, the coming generations of our people will not condemn us."33 (he seems to have learned the lessons of the Biblical Old Testament well: God punishes the people when they disobey him, so they must not make an enemy of God)
"For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: 'Lord, make us free!' is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!'"34
"we National Socialists must hold unflinchingly to our aim in foreign policy, namely to secure for the German people the land and soil to which they are entitled on this earth. And this action is the only one which, before God and or German posterity, would make any sacrifice of blood seem justified: before God, since we have been put on this earth with the mission of eternal struggle for our daily bread..."35 (again, Hitler tries to justify his actions as the will of God, as countless Christians have done before him).
"And so he advances on his fatal road until another force comes forth to oppose him, and in a mighty struggle hurls the heaven-stormer back to Lucifer. Germany is today the next great war aim of Bolshevism. It requires all the force of a young missionary idea to raise our people up again, to free them from the snares of this international serpent..."36 (Hitler explaining that the German people must send the "heaven-stormer" back to Hell).
2Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler, Volume 1, Chapter 1.
3Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 1.
4Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 2.
5Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 2.
6Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 3.
7Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 3.
8Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 5.
9Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 6.
10Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 7.
11Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 9.
12Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 10.
13Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 10.
14Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 10.
15Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 10.
16Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 11.
17Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 11.
18Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 11.
19Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 11.
20Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 12.
21Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 12.
22Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 12.
23Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 12.
24Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 12.
25Ibid, Volume 1, Chapter 12.
26Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 2.
27Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 2.
28Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 2.
29Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 2.
30Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 2.
31Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 2.
32Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 10.
33Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 13.
34Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 13.
35Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 14.
36Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 14.
37Ibid, Volume 2, Chapter 2.
CiaoGiovanni33 07:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In response to the editor who said that Christianity creates Nazism (he removed his comment when I tried to post this response in an edit conflict): No, Christianity can simply serve as a willing vehical that is compatible with fascism as it is with almost any other religious-like ideology. Nazism could have existed without Christianity, but it flourished under it just the same.Giovanni33 08:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hitler's Christian beliefs supported

message: Will someone remove "NIGGA" from the bottom of this article, after the succession box. I can't find it in the editor. Эйрон Кинни (t) 20:21, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed. It was in Template:Adolf Hitler. --Ezeu 20:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. It was really annoying. I see one of the same similar things on the Ronald Reagan article. I hate these. Эйрон Кинни (t) 07:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "NIGGA" 

message: Why would they put him as person of the year? That's gay! Sure he was a fairly good leader, but he kills 11 million jews for no reason, excuse me, no REAL reason and he is the person of the year. Must've been a slow year.66.218.22.93 04:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This was before World War II and before the international community was aware of the impending Holocaust. He had fooled the world after the Czechoslovakian conferences, including, and possibly the most notable, Neville Chamberlain. Эйрон Кинни (t) 07:35, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time Magazine sucks 

message: I've noticed the portrait of Hitler being changed a few times. I prefer the military one, personally since Hitler was first and formost a militarist. But why does it keep changing?Giovanni33 02:26, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: apparently the lisencing terms were unclear. Agathoclea 07:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It was on commons before, then it got deleted from commons because it didn't cite a source.  Then it was re-uploaded here under GFDL - which is definitely not the correct license, I found a source but there is no clear copyright info there.  If someone wants to try to figure out how to fix this, have a look at: .  The image hasn't been deleted yet, but will probably be deleted soon - so I replaced it with another image so that the page doesn't end up with a broken image yet again.  I have no preference for the currrent image, if someone can find something nicer feel free to replace it.--Konstable 02:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: picture

message: German is my Second language and Main Kampf translates "My Fight". Thought I'd change it. User:Lucky foot
Dear Lucky,
you are right but also wrong. Indeed "Fight" would be the more common and closer translation, but "struggle" is also correct and it captures the whole range of connotations better than the mere "fight". Str1977 (smile back) 16:14, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Small Name Change

message: In regard to Klaus Scholder, I have reposted a sentence that had been deleted before for lack of a reference. Now, there is a reference, the scan of which can be found here:  Having done that I have deleted the whole paragraph, since this controversy requires a detailed treatment which cannot be attained in this overview article. Str1977 (smile back) 16:14, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Scholder