Talk:Theories of Pashtun origin

message: I cut the following uncited and (to my mind) mildly anti-semitic remark from the article. If someone has a citation on some reputable scholar claiming this as evidence, I will reluctantly agree to its inclusion. 
:Another piece of evidence that link Pathans to a source of possible Israelite ancestry is that Pathans are also very-well known for their usury on the Indian subcontinent, like Jews were in Europe. "Pathan moneylenders," despite Islam's disapproval of riba, exist in various Indian cities. 
-- Jmabel | Talk 04:28, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
:That's interesting info. I think you should just modify it. For example: Another piece of evidence that points to a possible Israelite ancestry is the fact that "Pathan moneylenders," despite Islam's disapproval of riba, exist in various Indian cities. SamEV 12:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cut from article

message: The article needs to be split up into sections, and ordered more betterly [sic]... also, some things need to be wikilinked that aren't and some things that are needn't be.  Even the name of the article needs some serious reconsideration (who, seriously, is going to search for an article with such a name?)...  I could go on and on, regarding why I slapped the cleanup tag on there, but any even mildly-experienced editor can see almost immediately what the glaring problems are with this article's non-conformance to WP style... I'd have put in the work to clean it up myself (and may end up doing so yet), but right now I don't have time to.  I just didn't want it to slip through the cracks... Tomer TALK 06:50, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Mostly agree. I think the name is fine, many articles don't have very searchable names. People find them via links and categories. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:21, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Mostly agree...although as for how people searching for articles find them, it's not through categories (as useful as they are for experienced wikipedians, the majority of occasional users, from my own discussions with a number of them, aren't even aware of the categorization scheme...this is an oversight of editors more familiar with WP.  I would instead encourage the creation of appropriate redirects, by which people actually searching for information will be more readily able to find articles with such ridiculously long titles.  TomerTALK 07:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  cleanup tag rationale 

message: Maybe some information from these articles could be added to this article?
*Is One of the Lost Tribes the Taliban?
*Taliban may have origin in ancient tribe of Israel: Anthropologist finds many similarities
--172.163.44.227 15:12, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More links 

message: This article does not seem to be entirely balanced. In addition, why is the one link  here claiming to refute the theory a dead one. The endnotes and referenced are not balanced, and the body of the article is missing inline cites. Please help improve the content.--Jhelyam (talk) 22:35, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alerts added 

message: 1) I see that there is a new introduction to this article.  The introduction seems aimed at disputing the theory.  A proper introduction should be an explanation of the theory, while the debate supporting or refuting the theory should be included later on.  
2) The new introduction states that the theory of Pashtun descent from the Ten Lost Tribes is from the 19th century.  This statement contradicts the citations later in the article which cite historical texts dating back hundreds of years before the 19th century.
3) The introduction dicounts the theory by saying that Pashtuns want to gain status by claiming Semetic origin.  First, there is no proof of this assertion.  Second, it doesn't make sense, since in a Moslem country, claiming descent from Jews would actually reduce a person's social status.  This is actually a reason to give credence to the theory, since Moslems have every reason to deny connections with Jews.  If they claim a connection despite that, then there is good reason to take the claim seriously.
4) The introduction seems to assert that some Moslems support this theory.  Perhaps this was true decades ago, but today, perhaps because of political reasons there doesn't seem to be a single Moslem who is willing to publically accept this theory (with the exception of the Indian scholar quoted at the end of the article).    —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shalliah (talk • contribs) 08:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newly added introduction 

message: A HUMBLE REQUEST
Do not edit if you cannot provide a factual reference. Every edit must be backed up by a scholarly reference. Do not vandalizes, do not add personal references. Learn to respect and appreciate differences of opinion without personal prejudice. This after all is the sharing of collective human knowledge and bringing it to the world.
Msrafiq (talk) 10:55, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Note

message: Hello. User:Dougweller asked me to look at the genetics section of this article and I think it is quite speculative and needs some reduction down to solid facts. I have made some edits already, but perhaps I should stop for a while. In the meantime, please do look at the data of the Firasat article which this article cites. It shows R1a as being more common amongst Pathans than any of the other Y haplogroups described in this article as being most common. Whoever has been writing this material is apparently interested in haplogroup G, but this haplogroup is not so common amongst Jews, and has a distribution which is quite difficult to describe in any simple way. It is scattered all over Europe, and appear to have been very common amongst the first wave of Neolithic farmers there. It is also common in the Caucasus.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:26, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just found this article 

message: The person who wrote this clearly doesnt know the basics of DNA testing and has made contradictory claims, firstly look at a Y DNA study that is cited here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2588664/figure/F1/
According to this study, a study this author cites, the J haplogroup (Semitic marker) was found in around 5% of the Pashtun sample and the most common haplogroup was the r1a1 (found at 44.8%) which incidently happened to be a haplogroup found in a Scythian remain yet the author here claims Scythian DNA is not found in Pashtuns, what the hell?
Furthermore, Mitochondrial DNA is completelely irrelevant to Pashtuns because Pashtuns are a Patriarchal people; in Pashtunwali you are only Pashtun if your father is Pashtun, I know because Im Pashtun myself and this is the rule. Mitochondrial DNA is DNA passed on from mothers, in Pashtunwali the mothers ethnicity is irrelevant and only the fathers Pashtun identity determines the childs therefore it only makes sense to talk about Y DNA when talking about Pashtun ancestry. 
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Scythian Saka (talk • contribs) 23:03, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genetic section is full of nonsense 

message: See WP:NOR. Too much of this article is trying to make an argument for the 'theory' (really a hypothesis, not a theory). That's inappropriate. Sources need to specifically mention Pashtuns and Israelites, and indeed if we don't change the lead (and I think this is about 'Lost tribes', they have to mention Lost Tribes. That's the way we work, that's basic policy. I've deleted some stuff for this reason and will probably delete more. It's also obvious some sources have been misrepresented. Dougweller (talk) 12:17, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research 

message: The genealogical section of this article is total self made up, and when i tried to put in the right info somebody removed it. 
Pashtuns, in Afghanistan and Pakistan in general and Afridis in particular as being descendants of the lost Israelite tribe of Ephraim. Shahnaz Ali, at the National Institute of Immunohaematology studied the blood samples collected from Afridi, Khattak and Yusufzai Pathans to check their putative Israelite origin and the result came positive.http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/17/israel-lost-tribes-pashtun  It was found that 650 out of the 1,500 members had dna similar to genetic dna found in Jews.  That's less than half of the members were connected to Jews. The Ydna haplogroup G2C has been found in 7% of Ashkenazi Jews and in the Pashtuns. The research shows a relationship between Afghan (Pashtun) and Jewish (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi) DNA and also that Afghan DNA is 2nd closest (68.1) to Ashkenazi DNA after Irani and Iraq Jews (67.9). Rare genetic disease shows a common origin.  Inclusion body myopathy has been found among Afghans (Pashtuns), Iranian Jews and Ashkenazis.  This indicates a common founder mutation.  This is a disease in which muscular weakness is a rare genetic disorder which is localized to Jewish populations.  Most known patients are Iranian Jews, with a few originating  from Pashtuns of Afghanistan.  The high frequency is due to a founder mutation (GNE, M712T) from Nature Genet 29:83-87, 2001.  Another genetic disease common to both Pashtuns and Jews is the disease Glucose 6 Phosphate Dehydrogenase deficiency.  "G6PDH is common to Jews from Kurdistan, Iraq, Iran, Yemen and in Afghans/Pashtuns."  Scientists can draw inferences about Afghan DNA in general from this.http://jewishfactsfromportland.blogspot.com/2012/01/can-pashtun-tribe-of-afghanistan-have.html (Pashtunyar (talk) 12:04, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: A number of medieval Persian texts written by Muslim scholars refer to the Israelite origin of Afridi Pashtuns/Pathans[1], who mainly inhabit the hill country from the eastern spurs of the Safed Koh to the borders of the Peshawar district in Pakistan. They occupy about one thousand square miles of the hill country south and west of Peshawar, believed to be the area where Osama bin Laden has found asylum.
 
A sprinkling of them are also spread out in certain parts of India like Malihabad (District Lucknow) and Qayamganj (District Farukhabad) in Uttar Pradesh, where they settled in the mid-eighteenth century. Afridi, whose population was estimated to be 275,000 in 1962, is one of the most prominent tribes of the warlike Pashtuns/Pathans/Afghans, whose total population was estimated to be 20 million in 1986.[2] Sadly Pashtuns/Pathans/Afghans are the same people who largely fill the ranks of the Taliban today.
 
The ethnic and etymological origin of the name Afridi is obscure. But there are those who connect it with the Persian afridan, which means ‘newly arrived’, indicating that they were immigrants in the land from where they originally got this name.[3] Some find its origin in the name of Afrata, a great intellectual and wife of Hisron (eighth in descent from the Biblical character David).[4] The derivation of the name Afridi in the Hayat-i-Afghani of Muhammad Hayat Khan fromafrida (a creature of God) is evidently a modern fabrication.[5]
 
According to the legend, in ancient times a Governor of the provinceof Peshawar summoned certain members of the Afridi tribe to his court. With native pride, one such Afridi, took his seat at the entrance to the royal court, and as the Governor paused to ask him who he was, he exclaimed Zah sok yam? (Who am I?); and replied with solid indifference, Zah hum Afrida yam… (I am also a creature of God).Afrida means a created being in Persian (Farsi). From then on, the tribe were known by the name Afridi.[6]
 
One of the oldest manuscripts in the world is Abu Suleman Daud bin Abul Fazal Muhammad Albenaketi’s Rauzat uo Albab fi Tawarikh-ul-Akabir wal Ansab (The Garden of the Learned in the History of Great Men and Genealogies) written in AH 717, in which the author traces the ancestry of the Afghans to the Israelites.[7]
 
An outline of the main tribal traditions of the Pashtuns/Pathans/Afghans have been chronicled by Abul Fazl (1551-1602 CE) in Akbarnama. Slightly different versions are given in Sulayman Maku’s Tadhkirat al Awliya (allegedly of the thirteenth century CE), and in the Khazama.[8]
 
A number of Pathan/Pashtun/Afghan historians subscribe to the theory of the Israelite origin of the Pathans/Pathans/Afghans. The first among them to trace the genealogy of the Pathans/Pashtuns/Afghans to Israel (an alternative name of the Biblical character Jacob) in a methodical manner was Khwaja Neamatullah. During a discussion at the Mughal emperor Jahangir’s court about the origins of the Afghans, the Persian ambassador amused the monarch by presenting the following account to support the contention that the Pashtuns/Pathans were descended from devils:
Books of authority recounted that King Zuhak, hearing of a race of beautiful women that lived in far off western countries, sent an army thither, which was defeated by the beautiful women, but afterwards, a stronger expedition being sent under Nariman, they were reduced to sue for peace and gave in tribute a thousand virgins. When, on its return march, the army was one night encamped close to a wild mountainous country, there suddenly came down upon it a phantom, smote and scattered the troops in all directions, and then, in that one night, ravished all the thousand virgins. In due course of time all became pregnant, and when Zuhak learnt this, he gave orders that the women should be kept in the remote deserts and plains lest the unnatural offspring should breed strife and tumult in the cities. This offspring was the race of the Afghans.[9]
 
Annoyed at the disgraceful account of the origin of Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans, an Afghan/Pashtun/Pathan courtier, Malik Ahmad, entitled Khan Jahan Lodi, asked his secretary Khwaja Neamatullah Harawi to compile a complete account of the history of Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans. Neamatullah sent five historians, viz., Qutb Khan, Sarmast Khan Abdali, Hamza Khan, Umar Khan Kakarr and Zarif Khan, to the Afghan/Pashtun/Pathan territories in AH 1030/1621 CE to investigate the descent of Afghans. This eventually led to the compilation of Mirat-al-Afghani, according to which Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans are Israelites. According to Mirat-al-Afghani, after their expulsion from their native land of Israel by Bakhtnasr (Nebuchadnezzar), they took refuge in Kohistan-e-Ghor and Koh-e-Firozah, and were later converted to Islam by Khalid-ibn-al-Waleed, who was of the same racial stock as the Afghans. He is said to have invited his fellow Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans to Arabia to embrace Islam. Led by Qais/Kais, the Afghans reached Arabia and after prolonged deliberations ultimately accepted Islam. Kais/Qais married Khalid’s daughter Sara, and fathered three sons from her – Sarban, Ghorghusht and Baitan. Numerous accounts forwarded by Afghan historians tend to favour this theory. Hafiz Rahmat Khan has presented genealogies showing descent from Talut – a prominent figure in the annals of Bani Israil (Children of Israel) in his Khulasat ul-Ansab.[10]
 
Neamatullah has given detailed genealogical accounts of several Afghan/Pashtun/Pathan tribes, tracing their descent from Qais Abdul Rasheed, who himself is said to have sprung from the line of Jacob (Israel) in his Tarikh-i-Khan-i-Jahani wa Makhzan-i-Afghani (AH 1021/ 1612 CE).[11] Completed at Burhanpur, it gives an account of the Afghans, particularly the Lodis and the Surs.[12] Naematullah writes:
…Khaled sent a letter to the Afghans who had settled in the mountainous countries around Ghor ever since the time of the expulsion of the Israelites by Bokhtnasser, and informed them of the appearance of the last of the Prophets. When this letter reached them, several of their chiefs departed fromMedina; the mightiest of them, and of the Afghan people, was Kais, whose pedigree ascends in a series of thirty-seven degrees to Talut, of forty-five to Ibrahim…[13]
 
Naematullah was the first historian to present a systematic genealogical table of Pathans/Pashtuns/Afghans from Israel/Jacob. However he can’t be given credit for propounding the theory of their Israelite origin. Less than ten years before the compilation ofTarikh-e-Khan-e-Jahani, another scholar Akhund Darwiza had declared the Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans to be Israelites in hisTadhkirat al-Abrar (an account of his adventures in Afghan territories) in 1611 CE.[14]
 
Even before the political rise of Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans, Hamidullah Mustawfi had speculated that they were most likely Israelites in his monumental work Tarikh-e-Guzeedah (AH 730/1326 CE), as stated by Neamatullah.[15] 
 
This is a general historical account dedicated to Khwaja Ghiyasuddin Muhammad, son and successor of Rashiduddin Fazlullah, and deals with the Mongols of Persia (modern Iran) and modern Trans-Oxiana. [16]
 
Sheikh Mali of the Yusufzai tribe wrote in Pushto a book on the Israelite descent of the Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans between AH 816/1409 CE and AH 828/1412 CE. Another work in Pushto on the same subject is ascribed to Khan Kaju, written in circa AH 900/1493 CE.[17] 
 
Upon these two works were based Tarikh-e-Hafiz Rahmat and Khulasat al-Ansab of Hafiz Rahmat Khan. Minhaj-i-Siraj Jurjari, who had close contact with the Ghurids and held posts of qazi (qadi),khatib, sadr-i-jahan and principal of the Nasiriya Madrassa, wrote in his Tabaqat-i-Nasiri (1259-60 CE), “In the time of the Shansbani dynasty there were people called Bani Israel living in Ghor,” and that“some of them were extensively engaged in trade with the neighbouring countries.”[18] 
 
Tabaqat-i-Nasiri  is an encyclopaedic history from the patriarchs and prophets, viz., Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to the time of Nasiruddin Mahmud. It is an invaluable source of information for the history of the early Turkish sultans and theirmaliks and amirs.[19] 
 
Abu Sulayman Daud’s Rauza-ul-Bab Twarikh-ul-Akbar-wal-Ansab (The Garden of the Learned in the History of Great Men and Genealogies) (AH 717/1310 CE) is considered the earliest work on the subject of the Israelite origin of Afridi Pashtuns/Pathans. It is a history of the Afghan/Pashtun/Pathan nation since the time of Moses.[20]
 
Genealogies of the Pashtun/Pathan/Afghan tribes, right up to King Saul, are given in the second chapter of the book, while Mustawfi’sMajma-ul-Ansab gives a detailed genealogy of Qais (Kish), the tribal head of the Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans in a series of thirty-seven generations to King Saul and forty-five generations to Abraham.[21]
 
We find a detailed account of the journey of Afghans from Israel toAfghanistan in Bukhtawar Khan’s Mirat-ul-Alam, according to which Afghans are descendants of Israel (Jabob/Yacov/Yaqub) through King Saul.[22] 
 
It is worth mentioning the names of Syed Jalal-ud-Din Afghani and Syed Abdul Jabar Shah, the ex-ruler of Swat (NWFP, Pakistan), who have given genealogies of different Afghan/Pashtun/Pathan tribes right up to King Saul and conclude that the Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans represent the Lost Tribes of Israel.[23]
 
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, founder of the Ahmadia Movement of Islam, draws upon Tabaqat-e-Nasri in his book Jesus in India (1899), where it is mentioned that during the Shabnisi rule there lived a tribe called Bani Israel, some members of which were good traders.[24] 
 
He further records that in 622 CE during the prophet Muhammad’s lifetime, his military chief Khalid ibn-al-Waleed converted about half a dozen chiefs of the Jewish tribes to Islam. Qais or Kish was their leader. As neo-Muslim zealots, they fought bravely a number of battles for spreading Islam. As an expression of his appreciation, Muhammad showered gifts upon them and predicted that they would attain even greater victories. He decreed that the chief of the tribe would always be known as Malik and conferred the title of Patan upon Qais (Kish). Patan is a Syriac word meaning rudder. Since the newly converted Qais was a guide to his people, like the rudder of a ship, he was awarded this title.[25] And since then, his descendants have been called Pathan.
 
Another theory is that whenever people asked the Pathans/Pashtuns/Afghans about their nationality, they replied in Hebrew phasq or phasht. Phasq means “to liberate”, “to make free”, “to split”, while phasht means “to spread”. The word Pashtun seems to have been derived from this very word.[26]                    
 
In Hebrew, Pasht is the name of a deity and also of a city in Egypt. In the Pashto language Pastu means an inner room with just one entrance, which indicates that they might have migrated from Israel to their present mountainous country and called themselves Pusht after a village inIsrael.[27] Some believe that Pathans got their name from Jonathan’s great-grandson Pithon.
 
Some Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans believe that they descended from Bibi Qatoora, wife of Hazrat Ibrahim (Abraham). According to them, after the death of Bibi Sara, Ibrahim married Bibi Qatoora, from whom he had six sons. After distributing all his possessions among his sons, Ibrahim sent them towards the East. They settled down in Turan in the north-west of Iran, where they were soon joined by their brethren exiled by King Talut. All of them established themselves in Pasht. Pasht is identified with Parthia, which later came to be known as Tabaristan. Their settling down in Pasht earned them the name Pashtin followed by Pashtun, and Pashtaneh.[28]
 
According to Pashtun/Pathan/Afghan genealogies, Kish married the daughter of Khalid ibn al-Waleed, from whom he had three sons – Sarban, Bitan and Ghurgasht, Sarban in turn had two sons – Sacharj Yun and Karsh. As per the tradition, the descendants of Yun are Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans.[29]
 
It is noteworthy that the people of Asia Minor and Muslim historians call the Afghans/Pathans “Sulaimanis”, after King Sulaiman (Solomon).[30]
 
There is a tribal tradition that the Pashtuns originated in Israel in the days of King Saul, from whom they claim descent through a son, Irmia (Jeremiah), and a grandson, Afghana, from whom the nameAfghanistan is derived, with its inhabitants called Afghans. Pashtuns/Pathans/Afghans maintain that they grew great in Israel, where they were favourites of Daud (David) and Sulaiman (Solomon); and where the latter assigned them to guard the temple from the assaults of jealous demons. To aid them in this task, Sulaiman (Solomon), master of djins and afreets, taught the Afghans/Pashtuns/Pathans the language of hell. At this time there appeared a wicked magician, Bukht-ud-Nasir (Nebuchadnezzar), who scattered the tribes of Israel and sent the Afghans, as the most obstreperous, far to the east, to the land of Sham or Syria. From there they migrated to the mountains of Ghor in western Afghanistan, and settled down, adhering to monotheism, although surrounded by countless idolaters and polytheists. As the legend goes, in the time of Muhammad, an Afghan/Pashtun/Pathan, Qais or Kish, visited Meccaand embraced Islam, receiving the name Abdul Rasheed. He returned to Afghanistan to convert his people, and all the Pashtuns/Pathans/Afghans are the progeny of his two sons, Sarban and Ghurghusht, and daughter Bibi Matto.[31]
 
Fareed-ud-Din Ahmad tries to prove the Israelite descent of Pashtuns/Pathans/Afghans from King Talut in his Risal-i-Ansab-i-Afghana.
 
The Pashtuns or Pathans are the world’s only claimants of Israelite descent whose claim is backed by so many medieval references, spanning hundreds of years.
 
[1] Pathans, Pashtuns, Pakhtuns and Afghans are names which are often used interchangeably. There is nothing wrong in this usage, but each name has its own meaning. Those who inhabit plains and plateaus are entitled to the name Afghan, which has a far wider connotation than just being a subject of the modern state ofAfghanistan, founded only in 1747. The northern highlanders call themselves Pakhtuns, while the southern highlanders are known as Pashtuns. The appellation Pathan is the Indian variant of Pakhtanah, the plural of Pakhtun.
[2] Harrison, “Ethnicity and Political Stalemate in Pakistan”, in Ali Banuazzi and Myron Weiner, Religion and Ethnic Politics: Afghanistan, Iran and Afghanistan, Syracuse University Press, Syracuse, 1986, p. 286
[3] Oral Tradition
[4] Aatif, Khan Mohammad, “Sabhyata aur Sanskriti ke Aaine mein Malihabad”, in Naya Daur, Awadh Number, Public Information Department, Uttar Pradesh, u.d., p. 145 [Hindi]
[5] Islam, Zaiton, “Afridi”, in N. K. Singh and A. M. Khan, eds.,Encyclopaedia of the World Muslims, Global Vision Publishing House, Delhi, p. 24
[6] www.khyber.org/pashtotribes/afridi/afridi.html
[7] Ahmad, M. M., “The Lost Tribes of Israel”, in The Muslim Sunrise, Summer 1991 (Accessed on the Internet)
[8] Islam, op.cit., p. 20
[9] Kakakhel, Sayed Wiqar Ali Shah, “Origin of the Afghans”, in Dr. Fazal-ur-Rahman Marwat & Sayed Wiqar Ali Shah Kakakhel, eds.,Afghanistan and the Frontier, Emjay Books International, Peshawar-Pakistan, 1993, pp. 149-151
[10] Ibid., pp. 150-151
[11] Immamuddin, S. M., “The Afghans: Etymological Analysis”, in Muhammad Tahir, ed., Encyclopaedic Survey of Islamic Culture, Vol. 16, Anmol Publications Pvt. Ltd., New Delhi, 1998, p. 205
[12] Habib, Mohammad and Khaliq Ahmad Nizami, eds., A Comprehensive History of India, Vol. Five, Part One: The Delhi Sultnat, Second Edition, The Indian History Congress, Peoples Publishing House, New Delhi, October 1992, p. xxi
[13] Makhzan-i-Afghani (History of the Afghans) of Naematullah (1612 CE), trans. By Bernhard Dorn, Part I, Oriental Translation Committee,London, 1829, p. 37
[14] Imamuddin, op. cit., p. 206
[15] Imamuddin, op. cit., p. 205
[16] Habib, Mohammad and Khaliq Ahmad Nizami, eds., op. cit., p. xxi
[17] Imamuddin, op. cit., p. 205
[18] Imamudin, op. cit., p. 200
[19] Habib, Mohammad and Khaliq Ahmad Nizami, eds., op. cit., p. xx
[20] Benjamin, Joshua M., The Mystery of Israel’s Ten Lost Tribes and the Legend of Jesus in India, 2nd edition, Mosaic Books, New Delhi, p. 16
[21] Ibid.
[22] Ibid., pp. 16-17
[23] Ibid., p. 17
[24] Ibid. p. 18
[25] Ibid., pp. 15-16
[26] Imamuddin, op. cit., pp. 206-207
[27] Ibid., p. 207
[28] Kakakhel, op. cit., p. 153
[29] Benjamin, op. cit., p. 16
[30] Ibid.
[31] Singh, Nagendra K., ed., International Encyclopaedia of Islamic Dynasties, Vol. I, Anmol Publications Pvt. Ltd., New Delhi, 2000, p. 35 (Pashtunyar (talk) 12:19, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, thank you for such a long and detailed edit, what are you trying to say here? can you please summarize your input.... Dr Pukhtunyar Afghan (talk) 15:20, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The genealogical section is full of nonsense 

message: This seems to have passed under the WP:FRINGE radar for years. This is quite appalling.
The interesting core of the topic is that there was such a tradition which developed around the 16th century and seems to have been alive throughout the Mughal period.
This tradition was noted by 19th century western authors.
Nobody ever suggested that the hypothesis has any historical value outside the 1860s "Lost Tribe" fringe literature. 
This stuff was cranky even back when it was published. Any possible academic benefit of the doubt it may have had certainly been dispelled by 1900.
No enyclopedia would consider taking this "Lost Tribe" stuff at face value, and even bother to "refute" it with reference to "genetics" studies. 
Interestinly, the Ahmadiyya reference seems to have perpetuated this meme among Pashtuns(?) At least you do get crazy websites and youtube videos advocating it. Needless to say, these aren't "references". I doubt any sane reference considering this after 1900 can be cited.
The 1958 Caroe quote just references the tradition, it does not endorse it. 
Granted, there is Ben-Zvi (1958) who references the tradition and expresses his sympathy for it,  It is an ancient tradition, and one not without some historical plausibility. So by all means cite that, but don't imply that this is any kind of "acadmemic" argument in favour of this thing. I suppose all kinds of crazy speculation can be found in Israel, but even in Israel, academic  historians will be well aware that this "Ten Tribes" meme is just a fad that became popular in 18th/19th century Britain and lurks around in some crank narratives still. The phenomenon of these traditions can be discussed, but it is pointless to pretend discussing their "merit". --dab (𒁳) 13:29, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried to get it right. The article as I found it is was a typical (and blatant) example of what happens when people who "want to believe" base an article on pieces written by journalists (who by profession have to dress things up as exciting). Journalism is the perfect antithesis of what Wikipedia is trying to do, but of course we can drily report on journalism as much as on anything else. --dab (𒁳) 08:54, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: finally getting this right

message: R1a haplogroup is generally Slavic, Scythian. And Jews have generally semitic haplogroups. This article is an occult nonsense.
Wikipedia is literally becoming a Jewpedia
R1a is actually Indo-Iranian.Akmal94 (talk) 10:41, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  R1a haplogroup is Slavic not Jewish  

message: This article is about the Pashtun people, one of whose archaic names was "Afghan". Outside of quotations, I don't see why we should still be referring to them by that archaism. Can we not change "Afghan" to "Pashtun", where obviously appropriate? - Sitush (talk) 13:27, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Afghan terminology 

message: As we all know, this is an old wives tale propagated by the Mughals in the past on they're theories on the Pashtun people. However this was all in the past, where there no dna tests of any sort and such stories were believable. DNA studies today show that Pashtuns show absolutely NO genetic relations to Jews or any other middle eastern people and more related to their neighbours. Pashtuns also happen to be the highest carriers of the R1a halpogroup, which is indo-european and show relation to one another from tribe to tribe. My problem is, why should this article still exist if it has been proven wrong by history and genetic studies? I feel like it should be deleted so it doesn't cause confusion among readers or be used by people with an agenda or a negative motive to prove a point. I find this article more ridiculous than the "Theory of Pashtuns descent from Rajputs" which has no historical proof also and is propagated by one group of peoples opinions. Does anyone else agree? Akmal94 (talk) 04:59, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The rightness or wrongness of the theory is not dispositive of its importance or notability. In fact, the prevalence of this disproved theory, like that of a flat earth, indicates that we should have such an article; however, it needs to be much more balanced than the current version. All of the historical, linguistic and genetic challenges to the theory have been removed from the article. --Bejnar (talk) 20:39, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite possibly because their didn't discuss the 'theory' (wrong word) of Pashtun descent from Israelites, and that's a basic requirement - sources must discuss the subject of the article. Doug Weller talk 21:47, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: "sources must discuss the subject of the article" Not entirely true; sources must support the statements made, and conclusions need to be conclusions of the cited sources in order to avoid synthesis or original research. --Bejnar (talk) 01:31, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

text: Well sources like  do discuss the theory, although not in great detail. --Bejnar (talk) 09:13, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  The book may have copied from our articles. See Wikipedia:Potentially unreliable sources/Books that plagiarize Wikipedia which shows how his book copied from another article of ours. We can't use it as a source. Doug Weller talk 13:56, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

text: A non-genetic study addressed two predominent theories of Pashtun origin, the Bani Israel one and the soldiers of Alexander one, and found that "We have seen in the above mentioned references that the theory of Bani Israel about the origin of the Pashtoons is not reliable and nor it is based on authentic evidences."  That same study concluded that absent any other evidence, the Greek origin of the Pashtuns was unlikely. The genealogical study, , provided that genetic evidence for some Greek ancestry. --Bejnar (talk) 01:31, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Some good finds, but the genetic 'study', which can be seen here seems a bit dubious. The authors aren't geneticists, so I am not at all sure it should be used. Sorry, got to get food out of oven. Doug Weller talk 18:08, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, missed the forest. Greek origin doesn't belong here, although it is mentioned at Pathans of Punjab with a perhaps better source. It's confusing that some article titles have one form of the name while others use a different one. Both hypothese are discussed at Khattak - the Israeli one should be a summary of this article. This is an interesting source but it's self-published. Used in 3 articles so I'll have to do a clearup. At Horned deity it says published by the Foursome Group, and you really don't want to do a search for that publisher. In any case Amazon says it's Createspace. Doug Weller talk 21:43, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

text: Good idea although they aren't theories. Doug Weller talk 18:56, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  The term "theory" is pretty broad, what do you mean when you say that they are not theories? Are you using a particular definition of theory? Khalil and Iqbal definitely called them theories. Do you mean that they are not all "scientific theories", that is, "hypotheses confirmed by observation"? Some of them are, such as partial Greek descent, and, I suspect, partial Mongol descent. --Bejnar (talk) 20:32, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not going to press the point. Do you think this is likely to be contested? If not, we can go ahead and do it. Doug Weller talk 20:56, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Everything about Pashtuns is contested, but let's be bold, as no one else has joined this conversation. I've gone ahead and added a new lead, but the body of text will require a fair amount of work.  By the way you said "The authors aren't geneticists, so I am not at all sure it should be used." It is a secondary source, not the primary research.  --Bejnar (talk) 18:27, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Call for deletion  

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: update the white hun part with that bactrian documents which mention afghan with regards to hephthalites  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.50.187.22 (talk) 16:13, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  white hun 

message: Why is there nothing about Qais Abdur Rashid? Mporter (talk) 08:21, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legendary founding father