Talk:Olympic Federation of Ireland

message: Why has Big Dunc removed a 'bona fide' and accurate reference? This was added following a discussion. It is unreasonable simply to dismiss an established text (the result of compromise), without even having the courtesy to discuss it first. Mooretwin (talk) 18:34, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Read my edit summary and you will know why I did it. BigDuncTalk 18:36, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I did read it. It made no sense, as it involved an untrue statement. Mooretwin (talk) 18:43, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of bona fide and accurate reference 

message: A reference to the Olympic Charter was removed with the explanation that it "does not say anything releated to the sentence it is referencing". The reference clearly states:
"The NOCs have the exclusive authority for the representation of their respective countries at the Olympic Games and at the regional, continental or world multi-sports competitions
patronised by the IOC."
It then clarifies the term "country":
"In the Olympic Charter, the expression “country” means an independent State recognised
by the international community."
--Setanta747 (talk) 00:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So to use it to refrence the sentence that it was is synthesis and original reasearch. No mention of Ireland in the charter. BigDuncTalk 02:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is neither synthesis nor original research involved in citing the Olympic Charter. Do you have a problem with basic logic? Mooretwin (talk) 07:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No but it seems you do. Where in the charter does it state that the OCI represent only the republic of Ireland? BigDuncTalk 09:52, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Where it states that national olympic associations represent countries, which are defined as independent states recognised by the international community! Setanta has even spelled it out for you. Try reading it. Mooretwin (talk) 10:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

text: There's a very similar argument occurring on Talk:British Isles about the  "offensive to nationalists", coupled with a survey that shows the majority of Irish people favour a united Ireland.  That was judged to be OR for the same reasons as this (which is according to policy).  --HighKing (talk) 10:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: How is it "very similar"? How is this OR? Mooretwin (talk) 10:09, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, better to read WP:SYN for the policy, then read Talk:British Isles for the example I've given, and compare with what you're trying to do.  Pretty obvious... --HighKing (talk) 10:25, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not obvious in the least, and the fact that you are apparently unable to explain the similarity reinforces the view that it is not obvious. WP:SYN says "Synthesis occurs when an editor puts together multiple sources to reach a conclusion". That does not apply here. Mooretwin (talk) 10:28, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Because you are ignoring the primary source - that of the OCI website.  Picking and choosing references to push a POV is against policy.  Furthering that by picking a sentence here and there from the Olympic charter and applying that to this article in such a way as to deliberately misrepresent the statements on the OCI website is also against policy.  You have been pushing this POV for some time now, and I replied to you on this months ago.  You'd be better served by introducing a note to clarify your points (which are good points that I agree should be clarified) rather than trying to hijack the article.  --HighKing (talk) 10:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a "POV": it's a fact that the OCI represents the Republic and not the whole island. Where does the OCI web site claim that the OCI represents the whole island? It uses the name "Ireland", but - as you know - that is an ambiguous term, referring both to the Republic and to the island.  The OCI usage refers to the former.  Ironically - given BigDunc's other edits - both your and BigDunc's contributions here reinforce the need for disambiguation, as you very clearly highlight the ambiguous name of the OCI and the ambiguous references on its web site. Finally, the sentence and reference were added following a discussion and were part of a compromise conclusion. Mooretwin (talk) 11:00, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Mooretwin, just to be clear - I 100% agree with the points your are raising. The fact that the Olympic charter normally organizes by nation, but that Ireland appears to be an exception is notable.  That athletic organizations sometimes organize on an all-island basis, and the fact that these all-island athletic organizations compete under the OCI should also be noted in the article.  All these points can be supported by references.  It's just a matter of saying the same thing differently, using the appropriate references.  --HighKing (talk) 15:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems like a bit of a reversal in your position and attitude. What you suggest is already noted in the article, and it was I who noted them: "... many athletes from Northern Ireland also compete for the team, since sports organised on an all-Ireland basis are affiliated to the OCI". My reference for the introductory part of that sentence is valid, and should not have been deleted. Mooretwin (talk) 19:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Really?  Perhaps it's still not clear?  My position is that I ask you to not join two sentences/points together to make a claim, but rather to take the time to make each point, with references.  Also the current sentence doesn't read well and sounds like it's trying to be legal.  The Charter doesn't restrict authority for example, but provides definitions of countries, etc.  Trying to imply that somehoe authority is restricted is OR.  Hope that's clear.  --HighKing (talk) 19:21, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not clear at all. The Charter says that National Olympic Committees represent countries. And it defines country as independent state. Using the most elementary logic, that means that the OCI, which is a National Olympic Association, represents ROI, and not Ireland (the island), which is not a country under the definition in the Charter.  Surely that is not difficult to understand? Mooretwin (talk) 22:36, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

text: It's not on any page. No-one said it was. Try using basic reasoning skills. Mooretwin (talk) 22:36, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Please stop edit-warring, or I shall report you. Mooretwin (talk) 22:36, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

text: What are you talking about. The source is the Olympic Charter. It says NOCs represent independent states. Therefore the OCI represents ROI and not the island of Ireland. It's not rocket science.  Mooretwin (talk) 08:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Simple question does it state Ireland in the source? If not then you are engaged in original research. BigDuncTalk 08:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You are being obstructive. It doesn't need to state Ireland. It states that NOCs represent independent states, therefore supporting the statement that the OCI (which is the NOC for "Ireland") represents the independent state of "Ireland", i.e the Republic (and not the geographic entity of Ireland). Mooretwin (talk) 08:56, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Olympic Charter (reference) 

message: Interesting as the first section is, the OCI's own website (http://www.olympics.ie/category/about) says: 
"OCI History; J.J. Keane, then one of Irelands leading sports administrators was elected to the International Olympic Committee in 1922 and it is now generally accepted that the Irish Olympic Council as it was known at the outset, came to existence in 1922 but due to the loss of the minutes of the early meetings of the Council, the exact date is now not known." So could someone edit it down?78.18.217.23 (talk) 13:25, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Foundation in 1922 not 1920

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018)