Talk:Springer Hoax

message: A source from Sweden by a Springer descendant through his mother's side (Lady Beate Salinus): http://www.sahlinska.se is listed under Baltsar Salinus in pdf, but it may not be of use as it is in Swedish.  The article is by Olle Sahlin.  The actual genealogy used by the hoaxers can be found online.  Sahlin's article lists the good articles in English (eg by Baldwin Maull) which establish Springer's actual, as opposed to fantastical, descent.  The Swedish Colonial Genealogical Society has verified this information, which includes a letter from Springer to his mother shortly before her death in 1693 giving the facts of his kidnapping in London, which still sits in the Swedish Royal Archives.  Not on the hoaxers themselves (your point), nonetheless Sahlin's piece gives documentation from Prussian, Polish, and Swedish Court archives to Springer's actual origins--the hoax made him a "German" noble, not a Swedish one.  In fact, as Sahlin and other sources make clear, his parents were senior Swedish Court officials, whose offspring were members of the nobility (in some cases), and that his father was the overseer of the Court accounts, and his mother was a "husfru", honorary lady of the bedchamber to Dowager Queen Hedwig Eleanora; his grandfather Baltsar Salinus was Queen Christiana's court surgeon, Hovkirurgen.  Thus, the article on the hoax is a bit wide of the mark when it suggests that the Swedish noble connection was part of the substance of the hoax.  In fact, everything before Christopher Springer's grandfather Dr. Casparus Salinus and his wife Appolonia, who emigrated to Sweden in 1613 from Ducal Prussia (he was in service to various princes as a lawyer) is a complete fabrication; the Swedish Court connection is entirely accurate.  The Sahlins (as his mother's family came to be known) were very prominent in Swedish history.
Bacres Bacres (talk) 04:45, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Untitled 

message: I am having difficulty finding reliable sources for this article. Though numerous amateur genealogists have postings which allude to newspaper articles and books. Unfortunately, though their work seems to be authentic, the researchers are clearly not reliable sources in their own right and their citations are often vague or incomplete. To track some of these down, I am adding them here on the talk page until they are located and verified for the article.
1) "William F O’Dell published his family tree in 1981 Through Gateway Press Inc. Of Baltimore." 
2) "Also in the book” Crane Hook on the Delaware” by Jeannette Eckman Copyright 1986, she writes a very similar description on page 137. You can get this book from the Holy Trinity (Old Swedes) Church Foundation, Inc. The Hendrickson House, 606 Church St. Wilmington, De. 19801 or go to the Hendrickson House at Hendrickson house" 
3) "according to the Chicago Herald Examiner, dated 10 May 1923. “ A king’s ransom pales before the claims of the Springer Heirs, Incorporated. Kings’ crowns and jewels, heirlooms from 420 A>D>, land and money in Stockholm, Sweden, and an item of some $ 500,000,000 in Wilmington, De., are the riches that the 2,000 Springer Heirs hope to divide among themselves.” A sub headline reads:” Decendants Hold Convention Here Prepartory to Filling Action in Wimington. Del. " 
4) "Another newspaper article says Mrs. Mary Springer McMahin of Cedar Rapids, IA. Was the Mary O Springer who ran an add in the Chicago papers scouting out heirs."  
5) "Still another newspaper article proclaims that five members of the Springer Heirs Inc. were residents of Los Angeles, and engaged Attorney James H Mitchell ... “Mr. Mitchell said he heard that the city of Wilmington recently made an offer to the Springers Heirs Inc., to settle the suit out of court for $ 5000,000,000. There are more than 2000 known Springer heirs, and through their attorneys they have decided to contest the suit”" 
6) "Mr. M. C. Springer wrote a book on the Springer family. The original book was published in 1870’s.... Scribner published an undated version of the book in 1917 that supposedly corrected errors." 
SummerPhD 14:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Three of the sources cited in this wiki have been deemed non-reliable per WP:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard and I have replaced them with citation requests.  If we cannot find reliable sources to backup the information within the wiki, it should be re-written into something that verifiable.  <B>Erikeltic</B> (Talk) 13:19, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There you go. - SummerPhD (talk) 05:23, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, nope.  That source cannot be verified.  There is no ISBN number or publisher and I can't even find any record that the book actually exists.  I'm not interested in sources I'm interested in verifiable reliable sources.  <B>Erikeltic</B> (Talk) 12:22, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

text: Not the edition you're referencing.  In fact, the only addition that keeps coming up is from June, 1938.    The citations you claim are on pages 276-277 aren't there either.  Again, please find reliable sources that can be verified.  <B>Erikeltic</B> (Talk) 22:45, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The source is certainly reliable for the information provided. You seem to doubt that it is verifiable because you have not been able to find it online. However, WP:V does not require that you (or anyone else) be able to find it online. That you cannot find the repeated references to the report, and that specific edition, is surprising. My Google search's first result is to a PDF that clearly refers to this particular edition. By hitting Google with "Delaware, a guide to the first State" Springer the first hit is to a copy of that edition. Here it is. I'll wait a day to see if you have any other problems with it, then I'll restore it, if you haven't. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 00:00, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing there supports your citations and cannot be used as a reference.  <B>Erikeltic</B> (Talk) 01:09, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

text: In addition, the PDF you gave may refer to the alleged edition you're attempting to cite, but we have no idea what it reads or how it could be so vastly different from the readily available addition that does not support your non-verifiable citations.  Aside from that fact, it's complete WP:SYN.  As a side note, I find it very odd that such a stunning source would mysteriously appear within hours after the family tree and commerical coat of arms websites you originally used were removed.  Meanwhile all of this has taken place on top of a very lengthy discussion about how difficult locating sources for this article has been.  I think at this point you need to produce sources that can be readily verified before you attemt to edit this wiki further.  <B>Erikeltic</B> (Talk) 01:53, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: As i said above, "By hitting Google with "Delaware, a guide to the first State" Springer the first hit is to a copy of that edition. Here it is." If you feel that my editing is not in good faith, this talk page is not the venue for that discussion. Please address such concerns on my talk page and/or follow one of our dispute resolution procedures. Thank you. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:00, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That Google link is to the 1938 edition - see the title page. However, there is a 1948 edition in the Delaware state library system: http://www.lib.de.us/. Barnabypage (talk) 15:18, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but for the citations Summer is using -- why would we not use the 1938 version since it is readily available online?  The book may exist, but we have no idea what is in it.  The book is certainly not available in every public library across America and cannot be as easily verified as the 1938 version (which is online).  I see no reason to use the later version.  <B>Erikeltic</B> (Talk) 16:19, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It may be that the assertions SummerPhD is attributing to pages 276-277, and which you commented aren't supported by those pages in the 1938 edition, are indeed on those pages in the 1948 edition. For assertions which are supported by the 1938 edition I agree it makes sense to use that one since it's online. NB I have no particular position either way on this whole issue, which I just picked up on from on the sources noticeboards. Barnabypage (talk) 17:27, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: *Eckman, Jeannette. Institute of Delaware History and Culture, University of Delaware, 1958, Crane Hook on the Delaware pp. 136-8
:That looks good to me, but it doesn't support the statment, "It is notable today primarily as the result of mistaken reliance on the various fraudulent and/or erroneous Springer genealogies going back to Adam and Eve via Emperor Charlemagne." <B>Erikeltic</B> (Talk) 04:07, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool your jets, I'll get there. Had I intended it as a source for that particular section, I would have added it to the article. If it bothers you, remove it and I'll re-add it when I find a solid source. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:25, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible additional sources