Talk:Jarash, Jerusalem

message: The SWP-index notes that this place occur in    pp.467 - 468. However, that is clearly wrong: those pages are about Jerash. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 17:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Typo 

message: Fellow editors, User:Zero0000, User:Icewhiz, and User:Huldra, last night I returned from the Hebrew University Library in Jerusalem where I sat down and read several outstanding works written by archaeologists and scholars on the subject of Gerasa’s identification, a town described by Josephus, in The Jewish War (4.9.1). First, let it be known that in the absence of any oral tradition, it makes these identifications only tentative, with one suggestion having merely a greater likelihood or probability over another suggestion, for the reasons here to be explained. Without further ado, these are my findings:
* Archaeologist Boaz Zissu brings down two options for the Gerasa of Josephus (ibid.), reaching the conclusion that the site in question is to be searched for in Judea, rather than in Samaria. He names, specifically, two sites that still embody the name of Gerasa (Heb. Ǧerash), the one being Jarash, Jerusalem, and the other Kh. Jurish (near Tzur Hadassa), both sites being distant 6 km. from each other as the crow flies. Both sites have been surveyed by Zissu and both sites date back to the Second Temple period and earlier. Zissu gave his professional assessment that of these two sites, the most likely contender for the Gerasa of Josephus (ibid.) is the ruin now known as Kh. Jurish, near Tzur Hadassa and moshav Mata. Insofar as these two sites are concerned, he directly connects them to the Gerasa mentioned by Jacob N. Simchoni (1884-1926), in The History of the War of the Jews with the Romans, Masada publishers: Ramat-Gan 1968, p. 545, s.v. גרש(b) (Hebrew, reprint of 1923 edition), and where he cites Josephus (The Jewish War 4.9.1).  
:(a) Zissu rejects Avi-Yonah's findings (and by extension, those of Israel Finkelstein) who both place the Gerasa of Josephus (The Jewish War, 4.9.1) in Jurish of Samaria, saying that the only reason Avi-Yonah places Gerasa in Samaria is because Josephus makes note of the fact that Shimeon Bar-Giora was born in a town called Gerasa, and since he captured areas in Samaria (namely, Akrabat), it was thought that he captured the areas that were closest to his homeland. So far Zissu. What this logic fails to point out is that Shimeon Bar-Giora also captured all the region south of Jerusalem (known as Upper Idumea), which would include the Gerasa in Judea.  
:(b) Secondly, according to Zissu, the toparchy of Akrabat (Acrabatenne) and the region adjoining thereto (i.e. Jurish of Samaria) were only subdued after Vespasian's forces completed the encirclement of Jerusalem and erected citadels in Jericho and in Adida, and had destroyed Gerasa in Judea, based on the timeline of events in Josephus, The Jewish War 4:487 and 4:550–551 (see Zissu, Judea and Samaria Research Studies, [ed.] Dr. Ya'acov Eshel, p. 220).
:(c) Zissu also rejects the opinion of Thackeray (1928: 145), the translator and editor of Josephus' The Jewish War in the Loeb Classical Library, who thought that Gerasa was to be identified with the Gerasa (Jerash) of Transjordan. The reason for this rejection is that Zissu concludes there (Zissu, Judea and Samaria Research Studies, [ed.] Dr. Ya'acov Eshel, p. 219) that the Jewish inhabitants of Gerasa in Transjordan had already been allowed to take leave of that place at the beginning of the revolt and prior to the taking of the other Gerasa, as described by Josephus in The Jewish War, 2: 480. 
* Archaeologist Ze'ev Safrai, at first, placed the Gerasa of Josephus (ibid.) in Samaria, like his predecessors (Safrai, Boundaries and Government in the Land of Israel [גבולות ושלטון בארץ ישראל], Tel-Aviv 1980, p. 54 [note 16]), but later that same year he came to a different conclusion, saying that it is to be recognised in the Kh. Jurish (near Tzur Hadassa), just as it was concluded by Boaz Zissu (Safrai, "Conquest of the Mountainous Region", in: Jerusalem in the Second Temple Period - Abraham Schalit Memorial Volume [פרקים בתולדות ירושלים בימי בית שני - ספר זיכרון לאברהם שליט], ed. A. Oppenheimer, U. Rappaport, & M. Stern, Ben-Zvi Institute, Jerusalem 1980/81, p. 327 . The reason for this change of heart is explained by Safrai as follows (which mostly are the same reasons as described by Zissu):
:(a) Safrai rejects the opinion that the Gerasa of Josephus (The Jewish War 4.9.1) is to be recognised in Gerasa of Transjordan, the reason being that Gerasa of Transjordan, he says, was already subdued by the 15th Legion prior to the conquest of the Gerasa in The Jewish War (4.9.1), and with an expulsion of its Jewish citizens.
:(b) Safrai also rejects the opinion of those who seek to say that an error befell the copyist of the Josephus manuscript and that Gerasa should rather be read as Gezer, saying that this too is impossible, since Gezer was already subdued prior to the capture of Gerasa (ibid. 4.9.1), and that a Roman camp was stationed in Emmaus (near Gezer).
:(c) Safrai also rejects the view that Gerasa (ibid.) was to be identified with Gerasa (Jurish) of Samaria, but this runs contrary to the sequel of events described by Josephus, who places the conquest of the toparchy of Acrabattene  (which includes Jurish) after the fall of Gerasa.
:(d) Safrai points out that since the military stratagem of the Roman army was to encircle Jerusalem with the stationing of garrisons in Jericho, Adida and Gerasa, while the regions further north and south of these aforenamed places were taken later by the Romans, it stands to reason, therefore, that "we are to look for Gerasa to the west of the city [Jerusalem], upon the junction of one of the well-traveled roads." He concludes that this place is most likely Kh. Jurish (near Tzur Hadassa) and which town was once spread out over 40-50 dunams, and lay upon a hilltop near the ancient Roman road leading from Jerusalem to Beit Gubrin, via the Elah valley (Safrai, "Conquest of the Mountainous Region", in: Jerusalem in the Second Temple Period - Abraham Schalit Memorial Volume [פרקים בתולדות ירושלים בימי בית שני - ספר זיכרון לאברהם שליט], ed. A. Oppenheimer, U. Rappaport, & M. Stern, Ben-Zvi Institute, Jerusalem 1980/81, p. 329).
* Avi-Yonah (Gazetteer of Roman Palestine, Qedem - Monographs of the Institute of Archaeology [5], vol. 2, Jerusalem 1976, pp. 61, 109) holds that Gerasa (ibid.) is to be identified with Gerasa (Jurish) of eastern Samaria. This view is also held by Israel Finkelstein (Highlands of Many Cultures, Tel-Aviv University, Tel-Aviv 1997, p. 759 ). These views, however, are rejected by Zissu and Safrai for the reasons given above.
* Yoram Tsafrir, Leah Di Segni and Judith Green (Tabula Imperii Romanii: Iudaea, Palaestina [Maps and Gazetteer], The Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities, Jerusalem 1994, p. 133) only devote two entries for Gerasa; one in Samaria and the other in the Negev, while overlooking entirely the ruins by that name in Judea. They connect Josephus' reference to a place by that name (Jos. Bell. iv, 503 [4.9.1]) with the site in Samaria (i.e. Jurish).
* Anonymous author ("Bibliography - Patterns of Eretz Yisrael", in: Kiryat Sefer [17] (Quarterly Journal), Jerusalem 1940, p. 172), mentions Simchoni, Klein (Sefer Ha-Yishuv, Devir publishers: Tel-Aviv 1939, p. 106, s.v. Γερασα), Klausner and others whom all attest to the fact that Gerasa named by Josephus in The Jewish War (4.9.1) is NOT to be confused with Gerasa in Transjordan, but adds that the site has only been tentatively identified, although he himself is inclined to think that it is Jurish (of Samaria), citing David Benvenisti (1897–1993) who thought likewise.   
*Isaiah Press (Topographical-Historical Encyclopedia of the Land of Israel, vol. 1, Rubin Mass publishers: Jerusalem 1951, p. 174 [s.v. גרש -b]), brings down only two entries for the name גרש, both having the same phonetic sound (i.e. Jerash); the one he places in Transjordan, being the city by that name (Jerash). As for the other, he directly connects it with the town described by Josephus (The Jewish War 4.9.1) and holds that it is to be identified with the village Jarash, Jerusalem, at 3.5 km. distance south of the colony Hartuv (and which, in his days, had a Muslim population of 200 souls). He does not mention the "Jurish" of Samaria, since its phonetics slightly differ.
As for the archaeological features of the two sites described by Zissu, hopefully I'll bring down this information in my next post.Davidbena (talk) 05:12, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like this could go in attributed, while noting attributed counter-opinion.Icewhiz (talk) 09:57, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree, since we do have conflicting opinions about the matter. At least now we have sources that connect Jarash, Jerusalem with the place explicitly named by the 1st-century historian, Josephus. It is interesting to note that archaeologist, Boaz Zissu, describes Jarash, Jerusalem as a farmstead dating back to the Second Temple period, with perhaps share-croppers who worked the adjacent lands, and that in general scope, the ancient site was considerably smaller than Kh. Jurish near Tzur Hadassa. The old site of Jarash, Jerusalem is actually 200 meters west of the place where the Arab village once stood.Davidbena (talk) 10:16, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: David, thanks for your thorough report. I strongly suggest you create an article Gerasa (Judaea) and put the details there. Given that Zissu's conclusion is against this Jarash as being its location, most of the detail does not belong here. It could be mentioned briefly with a wikilink though. Zerotalk 12:05, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that all the minute details here do not belong in any article, including Jurish, but just like Jurish, we can briefly mention the dissenting views, as stated by Icewhiz. And, yes, I'm thinking about starting a new article with the name Gerasa (Judaea) and which will be built along the same lines as Huldra's article Beth-Anath. There are, however, some specific details about this article, Jarash, Jerusalem, relating to archaeology mentioned by Boaz Zissu, and which can be incorporated in this article.Davidbena (talk) 12:12, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I also agree that this should go into its own article. Alas, as it  looks to me as if Gerasa (Judaea) and Gerasa (Samaria) has been mixed up quite bit; perhaps it is best just to expand Gerasa (presently just a redirect to Jerash) in order to cover all the options. (Gerasene and Gerasenes also redir to Jerash) Huldra (talk) 22:13, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: We all agree that a separate article should be written about Gerasa (Judaea), but the article Gerasa, which is in Transjordan, is not the place for inserting anything about the events mentioned in The Jewish War (4.9.1), since ALL scholars (except for one) concur that the Gerasa in Transjordan is a different place altogether. There is an opinion that our Jarash, Jerusalem may be the place mentioned by Josephus (namely, the opinion raised by Isaiah Press), but it is by no means conclusive. We are only left with scholarly guesses, including those who say that the Gerasa of Josephus should be identified with Jurish in Samaria. The only real and conclusive data about our Jarash here are the results of the archaeological survey of Jarash, Jerusalem, conducted by IAA archaeologist, Boaz Zissu. I'll shortly add that information.Davidbena (talk) 01:52, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

text:  I've just now added the "Archaeology" section to this article. Once we have composed the specific article entitled Gerasa (Judaea), where it will discuss the possibility of its identification with several suggested sites (including our Jarash here), we can make here a wikilink to that article. Any other suggestions?Davidbena (talk) 03:07, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Even if we have a separate article, a brief referenced blurb here containing a wikilink to the separate article would be in order. In the mean time, prior to writing that article, at a minimum the same blurb should be here - either red linked or with no wikilink.Icewhiz (talk) 04:47, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yesterday's Findings