Talk:St Christopher Iba Mar Diop College of Medicine/Archive 2

message: There was no reason to remove the categories associated with this article. I have restored them. If other users disagree please discuss here before reverting. Spike 09:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Placing the article in the Medical Education category is inappropriate.  There are no other medical schools in this category -- most of the entries deal with the process of medical education, not the schools delivering it.  Medical Schools in the UK and Medical Schools in England are subcategories of Medical Schools.  Pick one and go with it.  Professional Education in the UK?  While maybe true, is it really necessary?  Why does a 2 paragraph entry need 9 categories?  To me, that's just overkill.  We really should pick one (maybe two categories) and go with that. Leuko 06:04, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, there is no excuse for putting any article in excess parent categories. It is irregular, biased, and invites suspicions that Wikipedia is being used for promotional purposes. Osomec 02:38, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: No he did not call the school dubious, just the over-categorization into categories of marginal relevance. Leuko 19:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Categories

message: I've removed the phrase regarding licensed graduates/residents matching via the NRMP due to lack of citations in accordance with WP:V. While it might be true, it is not verified, and that is the standard for inclusion on Wikipedia.  I agree 34 citations (are there that many already? Wouldn't have guessed) would be a bit much, but how about a few representative ones?  Leuko 15:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If the information is so open, what is the problem with citing sources? Leuko 20:35, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I am not "picking on" SCCM. It just happened to catch my attention for the many omissions as originally written, and I am just trying to make it the most accurate article possible. I added citations to the SGU article since you mentioned it, any other schools while I am at it? Leuko 00:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Isn't it possible to append a query string to link the record of interest?  Most databases are set up this way.  Can you provide links to the state databases where SCCM grads have been licensed?  I can probably get it to work. Leuko 00:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Licensed Graduates

message: As requested, I would like to discuss the revert User:Vtak made deleting "most states in the US," and replacing it with verbiage that implies that SCIMD grads are licensable in all US states.  This is clearly not the case, and can be verified.  California doesn't recognize the school (as well as other states that use California's list), and Oregon/Maine state the school is unaccredited.  Kansas is a no, because of the 15-year rule, and I am not sure about Texas or Florida. I thought "most" was pretty NPOV (in comparision to "some"), and represented a fair compromise given the verified facts.  The paragraph later on is misleading, since it seems to indicate that SCIMD grads can get licensed in all but two states, which is not the case. Leuko 17:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't oppose the use of "most", it's a fact. Spike 01:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Many vs. All US States

message: Since the other methods of dispute resolution have not worked so far, I've put in a request for arbitration.  Please go to the page to add your statements. Leuko 18:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitration

message: Should I assume that any issues not brought up in arbitration can be archived? The page is complaining that it's too long again. Spike 23:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: From what I can tell, all the topics on the talk page are currently at issue in the arbitration.  Best leave it alone, and not archive yet. Leuko 00:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't archve. Fred Bauder 17:32, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It would be helpful if you provided a little more information. Do you mean don't archive ever, don't archive what's currently up on the page, etc... Spike 20:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fred means don't archive, leave it to someone else.  You are clearly personally involved in this particular subject, you are displaying symptoms of WP:OWN.  Your best bet is to do nothing until ArbCom has decided what to do next.  Just zis Guy you know? 21:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Your best bet is to do nothing until ArbCom has decided what to do next." This is exactly what I suggest for you as well since you seem involved in this and are demonstrating some very questionable behavior regarding this article. Spike 21:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The weakness in your case is that I am a previously uninvolved admin coming to this from outside, whereas you are associated with the subject so should not actually be editing it at all.  Just zis Guy you know? 08:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleaning Up The Talk Page

message: I have checked the UK Department of Education and GMC databases of accredited institutions, this institution is not listed.  As far as the UK authorities are concerned, it is not accredited to award degrees.  As such, it should not be in the categories for UK medical schools and degree-awarding institutions.  It should also be tagged with , which I have done.  With this edit  [[User{ParalelUni]] reverted my changes.  That is not acceptable.  I see no evidence that anyone other than this user considers this to be anything other than an unaccredited institution.  This user also removed my statement from an WP:RFAR, which is also seriously problematic.  Just zis Guy you know? 21:09, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Spike" - accreditation is binary.  If this is accredited, give details of the accrediting bodies in the UK which recognise it. Just zis Guy you know? 21:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How incredibly shortsighted of you. Accreditation is not binary in the contact of multiple jurisdictions and countries. It's not simple black/white. Spike 21:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: JzG, is it possible to solve some of this by adding some relevant subcategory to "Medical Schools in England" such as "Medical Schools in England without UK Accreditation"?  Thanks, TheronJ 21:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not really, there would be just the one member.  Check the category - does this school look likely to attain parity with Guy's or Imperial?  Not in my lifetime.  The more we see of "Spike"'s input the more I suspect a scam.  The "recognition" in the US is not by an accreditation body, the place is not listed on the exhaustive DfES database or by the GMC.  Acredited in Senegal?  Welcome to it.  The campus is in the UK, and the obvious intent it to claim degrees as UK medical degrees.  Cynical?  You betcha.  Oh, and I haven't used my Super Powers here, as is obvious I think. Just zis Guy you know? 23:18, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unaccredited 

message: I have semi-protected this article since it seems that IPs are joining in a reversion war.  This block shouldn't be needed for too long. Bucketsofg✐ 22:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't notice that any of the IP's were acting inappropriately though. Spike 22:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ROFLMAO!  Just zis Guy you know? 23:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The anon was clearly "Spike" anyway.  I admire your attempts to compromise, but actually I don't see why there is any need to compromise when Spike is in a minority of one.  The UK medical school categories should go, and  should go back into the lead.  That's how we handle dozens of other unaccredited schools.  Just zis Guy you know? 23:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Category:Professional education in the United Kingdom should be removed, it has two entries, Association of MBAs and St Christopher Iba Mar Diop College of Medicine - spot the odd one out.   needs to go back in to the lead. I have included the summary from Office of Degree Authorization in the State of Oregon, which is unquestionably a reliable source (Government agency).  If anyone want sot link to the lists of accredited degree awarding and medical schools in the UK (from which it is absent) then feel free. Just zis Guy you know? 08:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Nobody wants to "rape" the place, only to write a neutral article - neither hatchet job nor PR piece.  Feel free to add details of the campus and anything distinctive about the place (I removed the generica about the course, since all medical degrees are similar in that regard, but left the unique information regarding where the residencies take place). Just zis Guy you know? 08:45, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  semi-protected 

message: The article stated that it was listed by WHO.  According to the linked source  WHO  notes that it has been informed that instruction has commenced at this institution, but there is no mention of licensing.  FARMER/IMED does list it but not as a UK school, and they do not appear to know that Universite El Hadj Ibrahima Niasse is not accredited in Senegal. Just zis Guy you know? 08:33, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accreditation 

message: From the BBC, 11/6/05:
:A BBC investigation has revealed that the General Medical Council has been recognising some British-based medical colleges that are offering worthless degrees.
:...
:The GMC has announced that it has suspended its recognition of the degrees of one Luton-based college and is investigating the status of four others. 
:...
:There are now doubts about the validity of degrees awarded by St Christopher's College of Medicine in Luton, which currently has 400 medical students. 
:The GMC has given recognition to the college where students can pay up to £150,000.
:Senegal 
:Despite its UK location, the college's degree awarding powers come from Senegal in West Africa and St Christopher's claims to have received this accreditation in 2000. 
:In an interview with the BBC, the director of the government's department of higher education, Momar Marieme Dieng, was asked if he was aware of any government accreditation for St Christopher's from 2000. 
:"No, not to my knowledge" he replied, although he said the government did award accreditation to a college called St Christopher - Iba Mar Diop medical college, which did not open in Senegal until 2003. 
:...
:While the college claims to have received accreditation in February 2000, a Senegalese government letter obtained by the BBC, and dated seven months later, stressed that St Christopher's was starting on a process which might lead towards accreditation in the future, but that accreditation was not yet effective. 
:The Luton college says it is mystified by the statement from the senior government official. 
:The head of their UK operations, Allan Bain, said "We are accredited, we are supported by the government of Senegal so I really don't know what to say over and above that". 
:...
:As a result of these revelations the General Medical Council announced that it had suspended its recognition of degrees awarded by St Christopher's while it investigates the college's accreditation in Senegal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheronJ (talk • contribs) 
Update: Not only did I forget to sign, I didn't realize this piece was already in the article.  My bad.  TheronJ 20:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More resources on St. Christophers

message: I tried searching for the video/text for the BBC local news programme Look East which was quoted without citation and my  was deleted.  If it is on the web, is it possible to link to it?  I would like to see it.  Thanks. Leuko 16:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's linked from the college website.  It's a non-trivial media mention, and it specifically men tions the (lack of) accreditation, so actually it's a good source. Just zis Guy you know? 21:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: BBC local news programme ''Look East''

message: Am I relatively new to this article, but I noticed that there is a press release  that it has merged with the Medical University of the Americas in Belize.  On the website for St. Christopher, no mention of Senegal is made nor is "Iba Mar Diop" mentioned in the name of the school.  The current article seems to be based heavily on the Senegal connection, but I wonder if that (or the title of this Wikipedia article) represents the current state of affairs with this school.  Andrew73 15:13, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm kind of confused.  So is it St. Christopher College of Medicine  or St. Christopher Iba Mar Diop College of Medicine ?  They both appear to be very similar.  Andrew73 20:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Interestingly, there's no mention of Belize!  Andrew73 21:38, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Connection to Belize 

message: All the changes are referenced and took time to do, so this will be changed back in the next few hrs with more pain staking work and will be taken up with admin if a editing war ensues because the mod is being prejudice to Govt's information.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vtak (talk • contribs) 
:Vtak, I am an admin.  You are an involved party with an apparent vested interest in the content and should probably not be editing this article directly at all.  All your comments have been discussed before; per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/St Christopher/Evidence it would help your case enormously if there were any editors other than single-purpose accounts with a connection to the institution who support your changes.  At this point there appear to be none. Just zis Guy you know? 15:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I explained before you have a vested interst in the content of this article so should not be editing it directly. All edits which agree with you are from single purpose accounts.  All editors who have an edit history outside of this article disagree with you.  Your exhortation to review the history is curious, since it is patently obvious from the evidence at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/St Christopher/Evidence#Evidence presented by JzG that I have already done exactly that.  Just zis Guy you know? 00:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is so very clear to the objective viewer that this not only is NOT accredited, but it provides a questionable education and degrees that may be worth nothing to the real world. I'd put this page up for deletion per it being an ad, but it is clear that this a notable diploma mill per media sources and criticial government sources. C56C 22:39, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Diploma mill?  A difficult one, you need a WP:RS for that.  But you may be able to help at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/St Christopher. Just zis Guy you know? 22:49, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

text: yes the school was purchased by UHS and is being moved brick by brick to antigua. WikiBS 07:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Large Amt. of Changes?!?!?!?

message: Some anon IP's have been trying to nominate the article for AfD. This is a perfectly legitimate effort, though its odds for success are not high. But to nominate it for deletion you must create an entry and explain your rationale, based on WP policies. Please read WP:AFD#How_to_list_pages_for_deletion and WP:DEL. Then do it the right way and follow the process if you are still sure you want to. Hint: you need to prove non notability and that's not going to be easy with all the countries, states and other organizations referring to this institution. Crum375 20:41, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  AfD  

message: Temporarily semi-protected article until I can sort out the issues related to the legal threats and the arbitration case rulings. Remember that people and organization are encouraged to pursue regular dispute resolution processes on Wikipedia. If legal options are chosen instead then please honor Wikipedia policy and do not continue to edit this article. Thanks, --FloNight 00:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think full protection might be better given the legal threats removed earlier.  I find the idea that a Wikipedia article might be accepted as authoritative by a court of law somewhat amusing :-) Guy 08:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. I went to bed before read email from Legal. Will contact office for further action ASAP. Still early here so will be at least a few hours. FloNight 08:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

text: You'd stand a much better chance to effect results if you point to one specific item in the article that is improperly sourced, for example, and ask that we focus on it. Then repeat as necessary. I assure you that each issue you raise will get proper attention and respect. Crum375 20:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To the best of my knowledge, that's not how Wikipedia is supposed to work. SpikeyPsyche 21:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: WP is supposed to work like this. In my own experience, if you operate within these boundaries and follow the fairly basic rules, you'll be able to bring any WP article, on any subject, very close to the ideal WP:NPOV balance. If you feel this particular article is not quite there, or even far off the mark, the best way is to take it on one point at a time, as I suggested above. Crum375 21:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have indef-blocked SpikeyPsyche as a reincarnation of the banned user , aka "Spike".  See also Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/St Christopher. Guy 21:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Temporarily semi-protected article

message: I have an IMED question.
#IMED apparently seeks to identify "international medical schools that are recognized by the appropriate government agency in the countries where the medical schools are located.".
#IMED lists St. Christopher as being licensed by Senegal and located in Dakar, right?
#The St. Christopher discussed on this page is located in Luton, England, right?
I'm confused.   Is the Luton school listed in IMED, as the article currently claims, or just the Dakar school?  TheronJ 14:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good point. I can see only the Dakar address listed as the "school address". I wonder if someone who is familiar with IMED can shed more light? Crum375 17:21, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I actually asked IMED this same question.  As far as they are concerned it is a Senegalese institution and therefore included on the basis of the Senegalese Government's acceptance.  I think if the campus was in Senegal we would simply not be having these arguments. Guy 17:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do they mean to include only the school at the Dakar address they specify on their page under "school address", or are they saying the school can be physically located anywhere on earth? Crum375 17:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The campus in luton is a satellite campus of the main campus in senegal.  Thus it is a senegalese school with a campus that operates in the UK.  The luton campus is chartered through senegal and its graduates have the same recognition in senegal as anyone who graduated from the main campus in senegal.  As far as i know the luton campus never claimed to be giving out UK degrees? Rather simply giving students the option to study in the UK through a senegalese school.  Correct me if i'm wrong.Azrealist 20:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand what you are saying, but that is just an opinion of an anonymous person. My question was about the official position of IMED. If you are aware of a reliable and verifiable source that could help us establish what their official position would be for a government in country X approving a school in country Y (where X and Y are on different continents, if that matters), then that would be useful. Also I would be interested to know if IMED list country X and a 'school address' specifically inside country X (only), does that cover a 'satellite school' of country X located in country Y (on a different continent), not mentioned in their listing.  Crum375 21:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Because of the above point is exactly why SCIMD is being evaluated and site visited by the GMC and other accreditation organizations as we speak.  I'm not sure if you're aware that this isn't an overnight process and seeing how government agencies actually deal with more than one issue this wont be resolved tomorrow or next week.  SCIMD has already been visited since the ECFMG re-instatement by various organizations for inspections and are still open for buisness, so i'm guessing that they haven't found anything grossly wrong and run them out of the country.Azrealist 23:46, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you misunderstand my point. I am trying for the moment to take a step back from the SCIMD recognition issue and focus specifically on the IMED policy issue, per the title of this section. My self answered question was if anyone knows the official policy of ECFMG/IMED regarding their listing of schools. From their own Web page that I quoted above, it is clear to me that their policy is to only list schools inside the country of the recognizing government. This would exclude, as far as I can tell, any satellite schools whose address is in a different country (or even continent as here) from the recognizing government. The points you make, unless I am missing something, are not addressing this ECFMG/IMED policy, as stated on their Web page. This, for me seems to be a fundamental issue, independent of the SCIMD status. Crum375 00:26, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you misunderstand IMED... their point is that they "provide an accurate and up-to-date resource of information about international medical schools that are recognized by the appropriate government agency in the countries where the medical schools are located" - SC is located in Dakar, Senegal and they have the right to educate their students wherever they want, provided it is not in violation of local law where they choose (as it would be in the US, but is not in the UK)Gabrielwerder 15:03, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the current language on the ECFMG/IMED site, which I quoted above is very clear and unequivocal:"The International Medical Education Directory (IMED) provides an accurate and up-to-date resource of information about international medical schools that are recognized by the appropriate government agency in the countries where the medical schools are located. The agency responsible for this recognition in most countries is the Ministry of Health. "(emphasis added by me)They list the schools that are recognized by their government in the countries where the medical schools are located. They list an address for the school to show where the school is located. In the case in point of IMED, the address they list is in Dakar, Senegal and the approval is by the government of Senegal. I do not see anywhere on their site an allowance for the school location to be anywhere but at the address and in the country noted. If the school moved, that record would have to be updated. If IMED intended to include a satellite location in a different country or continent, it would have to be stated explicitly, because right now the clear meaning to me is that the school is in Dakar, Senegal. Any other interpretation of this clear statement would be WP:OR. Crum375 18:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  IMED question 

message: just looked at the history on this page and its nice to see Crum375 deleting the contributions or discusion put in by other user (on october 4th).  Nice work and way to keep the discussion going and impartial.  I thought Wikipedia was supposed to work by having everyone contribute and discuss things... guess not.  Azrealist 09:06, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct about WP working "by having everyone contribute and discuss things". But there are also rules such as WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, WP:NLT that must be followed to allow for a productive discussion. If anyone (currently only registered users) wants to objectively and calmly discuss the article, while carefully adhering to WP's rules, they are more than welcome to do so. Crum375 13:25, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  deleting edits?