Talk:Social situation in the French suburbs

message: I've added the NPOV template. The previous poster is right. This article is filled with original research, speculation, conjecture, opinion purported to be fact, lefticruft, and direct POV. Sources need to be cited. --malber 15:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: excuse me, lefticruft? I agree with the 'opinion/speculation' part, however. Go easy on it, it was just rather unceremoniously exported from 2005 civil unrest in France, and some of its references may still be hanging out over there. but, , you are free to remove the more speculative passages (just don't blank it altogether please; afaics, most of it is pretty straightforward; I don't think that the "Historical context" is very controversial, for example. dab (ᛏ) 18:32, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure the article can achieve NPOV. Even suggesting that a social situation is the cause for the riots is suggesting that the rioters are not to blame for their actions, but that their actions were the result of socioeconomic factors is POV. Or that the French government should give consessions to appease their Muslim citizens from comitting further acts of violence (you would think the French would have learned the lessons of the 20th century about appeasement) is also POV. Is this really encyclopedic?  This article is likely a candidate for deletion. --malber 20:41, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No way. Suggesting that a social situation is the cause for someone doing X, is NOT suggesting that that certain someone is not responsible for X. Please stop the righticruft. ;) --Leo44 | Talk 21:45, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:   I do not understand malber. "Even suggesting that a social situation is the cause for the riots is suggesting that the rioters are not to blame for their actions" ? So there are no causes for riots ? People just start feelings riotous out of the blue, all together ? Rama 23:18, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Answer this question: are the rioters responsible for their own actions or did society make them do it?--malber 14:05, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: why? This is not a question Wikipedia is supposed to answer, except by referencing academic discourse on Free Will. It is certainly not the topic of this article. Are politicians who start a war responsible for their actions? I should think so, and the international tribunal seems to think the same (except for US politicians, of course). Should Wikipedia have an article on the Causes of World War I? Certainly. Is there a connection between the two statements? I don't see any. dab (ᛏ) 15:29, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problem with an article about the social situation as an underlying cause for the rioter's rage, so long as it doesn't imply that it is a justification for the rioter's actions. Without sources cited, the article is speculation and original research. The rioters could just as well be acting out of hooliganism and thuggery. This article still makes many assumptions and generalizations that are non-NPOV, and then tries to purport them as fact.--malber 17:04, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "justification" is a moral judgement. "explanation" is an analysis of causality. If you spot any talk of "justification", I will support their removal. Explanations of the processes that caused people to riot, however, are perfectly at home here. I don't see how "hooliganism" or "thuggery" is different from "rioting", but in all cases there will still be underlying causes. dab (ᛏ) 17:13, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  malber, I think that you tend to see morale where there is none. Studying the underlying causes of a riot is not a way to excuse the rioters; seeing that a riot is occurring is not a condemnation of the rioters. Rama 17:26, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  Deletion of article is ridiculous. maybe you would be happy with" muslim riot with no reason" seems to be you to be your aim. I vote this article stays and with the most important of all reasons..... reason its self How about we delete all polictical response cos hell they are all POV pushing. --Whywhywhy 02:23, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Hey, don't they "suggesting" like that, else we will run out of this word ! ;) Rama 17:27, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree with Berard. Pipes is an American neocon Jew, and an authority on the USSR and the Cold War. He is not an authority on France, Islam, the Mahgreb, and the dysfunctionality of a slum upbringing with an absent father.123.255.62.12 (talk) 08:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV Template added 

message: I'm not the person who originally deleted the reference to the Jerusalem Post article by Daniel Pipes, but I noticed someone just put it back in.  I read through the article and it doesn't seem NPOV to me, and not suitable to be listed as a factual reference.  For starters, it's an opinion piece, not a news article.  It makes allegations but does not cite any sources.  Also, it reads like the author has some kind of agenda to push (alleging some kind of international Islamic conspiracy).  We might as well link to Stormfront or some writings by LaRouche if we're going to include that kind of thing.  I'm going to take it out again for now.  --Chris Thompson 11:31, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pipes / Jerusalem Post Article 

message: Despite not having NPOV, this article should not be deleted. Interested/concerned individuals deserve to have access to such information.  This article certainly advanced my own understanding of the background to the present unrest, and contains information which I could not (easily, or at all) get elsewhere. If those wanting to remove the article can recognise bias, so can I, and I can allow for it. I would rather have biased information AND a lively discussion about it which moves towards NPOV, than no information at all.
--User:undefined user 02:23, 
agreed
--Gomezzzz 12:11, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Imperfect information better than none 

message: Is there any sense in writing this article without a specific date. Should it be edited with each year-day passing ? 
Should it be the situation in 2005 leading to the civil unrest ? - unsigned
The article is written by volunteers motivated to provide a context to the current riots in France. If you feel motivated to expand the article (using sources is, of course, best) so it is more encyclopedic, complete, or exact; please do so. Prescribing what volunteers are to spend their time on (Everyone fill in social situation data and/or dates ...) isn't nearly as effective as leading by doing. WAS 4.250 15:55, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  social situation : when ?  

message: Please do not put far-right editorials which bring nothing to illustrate the subject. See the "freak show point" on Talk:2005 civil unrest in France.
Furthermore, if you do think that an editorial is worth mentionning, it is possible to discuss the subject on the talk page; on the other hand, blindly reverting with the introduction of syntactical errors (doubling the category of the article) and making empty accusations in the comment strikes me as a particularly tendentious hysteria. Rama 13:40, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Daniel Pipes is hardly far right. Why don't you help put up a selection of different editorials about the social situation in france, rather than removing one that you personally don't like. Klonimus 15:44, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the inflammatory and POV editorial for those two reasons --Bob 20:48, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editorials 

message: I think this part must have some words about the hip hop subculture (French hip hop). A major point forgotten by the press is that a lot of the kids rioting belong more or less to this subculture, listening or singing rap music, wearing streetwear clothes, some of them drawing tags on walls, or practicing breakdance... I think this is even more important that the religious issue, but i haven't the time, the english skill and the factual knowledge to write it in the article (i've just added french hip hop to the 'See Also part. 194.206.158.108 15:57, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You make suggestions in French, if this makes things easier for you. I assume that quotation of particular rap songs could be intersting, if you have a knowledge of the subject... Rama 16:07, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Loss of landmarks — search for new references 

message: Removed a paragraph from the end as it is out of context with the rest of section.  There are no sources quoted, and seems very anecdotal.  The language used in that section might make for an interesting discussion, for example how the phrase "french national" is used here to exclude french nationals of north african descent, or the implicit presumption that the immigrant and muslim community are not "against violent crime".  On the contrary, the non-white section of the French public seems to be calling attention here to the thuggish and violent behavior of another demographic who carry police batons.
The view that the immigrant community is a hotbed of (extra-lawful) violence is worth reporting on, but IMHO not worth re-enforcing
For convienience, here is the removed paragraph:
However, what is often over-looked is that many French nationals are against violent crimes and general thuggery. This is carried out in most instances by male youths of North African descent, feeding the general feeling of anger and fear towards this demographic. Many youths of North African descent walk around with Stanley knives in full display, are vulgar towards the general public and are threatening. Not all do this, but it doesn't help the anti-North African sentiment amongst French people.
216.232.210.12 02:39, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you know that the phrase "French national" is used to exclude french nationals of north african descent? maybe it is the readers opinion that it excludes this demographic, but this is not what it states. Sure, at the end it states that there is an "anti-North African sentiment amongst French people". In this instance, it can be assume to include all French people besides North Africans, but only this excerpt could support your POV. --Bob 00:58, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Established policies of racial discrimination and of segregation 

message: I cannot but note that the banlieue article is very short. Normally, the subject matter of this article would just be treated under "banlieue". I think this article should be merged over there. dab (ᛏ) 21:49, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: merge

message: Parts of this article copy reports from BBC and other media sources that try de facto to do sociology. The problem is, they do not do it properly (that is, following the normal scientific rules) and they over-use innuendo.
For instance, the article quoted a study showing that students of North African origins who attended higher education tend to end up unemployed more often than those of other origins. The conclusion was that they suffered from discrimination.
Needless to say, this is faulty sociological reasoning. One could perhaps draw such conclusions if the same study was done for people with equivalent education. The problem is, not all curricula in French higher education are equivalent with respect to unemployment (anybody with some knowledge of French higher education knows this). Some yield high probabilities of employment, some don't. It would be interesting to see in which proportion the North Africans attend the various curricula. With this information, it could perhaps be possible to infer possible racism afterwards; but without it, it is just shoddy sociology, and true editorializing.
We could also perhaps want to discuss foreign students who register at French academic institutions just in order to get a valid visa or authorization of stay. I do not have statistics on this and won't write about it in the article, but I saw first-hand some lists of students, all with African and other foreign names, who never showed up after registering. It was not a negligible proportion of the students of the university where I worked. Obviously, people who do that, though they may be counted in the statistics of "having attended university", will not easily find a job with their university credentials. Of course, that's anecdotal original research, so I will not write about it in the article. But any decent study of the topic should mention this phenomenon.
Finally, about copying claims from SOS Racisme. I should point out that SOS Racisme is quite close to the PS, the French Socialist Party (for instance Julien Dray, now a senior executive of the PS, was long one of the top executives at SOS Racisme). The PS is currently in the opposition, and is necessarily interested in embarassing the current government. While I do not claim that the SOS Racisme study is flawed, it seems fair to point out their political connections.
To summarize my opinion: we need more quotes from actual professional sociological studies, and fewer from editorials, journalistic sociology, etc.
David.Monniaux 10:10, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  El cheapo sociology 

message: I should point out to those who contribute here that this topic is extremely politically loaded in France (that should be obvious, but still...). Thus, one should be very cautious before copying claims from such or such association, group or party, since many have specific political goals and connections.
Thank you. David.Monniaux 10:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Politically loaded 

message: This article still has a good bit of "original research" and some statements without refrences. I'm fixing those as well as the factual inaccuracies/errors in grammar that I've come across. 
I am removing/revising the following items:
Redundant and awkward: "they said". I am removing "they said" from the bullets in the "Hidden Racism" section. The paragraph references a study; it is clear that the statements made represent information given in the study. The paragraph already states: "The association SOS Racisme, close to the French Socialist Party, has claimed to have found experimental proof of such racism", which makes both attribution of the data and the political leaning from which it comes clear.  Also, someone misspelled "said".
Factual inaccuracy: "only US citizens can obtain civil service positions (the government uses subcontractors to employ foreigners" - the Army and many civil service positions are available to those without US citizenship in the US. 
Grammar: "In 2005, the unemloyment in the cités reaches 20%". This sentence should use the verb in the past tense. Changed to "reached."
No reference/original research: Many North African immigrants also use the university system to obtain temporary residency permit (Carte de Séjour), registering for the first year of different courses each year." No reference is given for this statement; it smacks of political belief. Perhaps it could be put at the Le Pen paragraph at the bottom, but it does not belong here. 
-JFS
the last statement is what is found at the Universite d'Aix-Marseille I, II and III. --Bob 22:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing unreferenced statements and errors of fact from the article 

message: Beside being clean up, I agree with the proposal to merge banlieue here, expressed here in the first subsection (titled: Merge). If anyone's up for it... He already got three votes! Tazmaniacs 01:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge II 

message: There is a merge tag on Allegations of French apartheid with the "discuss" pointing here.  I oppose this proposal in the absence of a global solution on "Allegations of X apartheid" articles.  This article survived an AfD just as other articles did, and if it is going to be merged anywhere, similar action should take place for all articles in the series.  6SJ7 03:20, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? The articles are on completely different situations and deal with completely different material. Lothar of the Hill People 20:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Well. Are there any reasons to oppose this merge not linked with the others "appartheid" articles ? I mean, reasons such as 'this particular point in AoFa does not apply to social situation in the Fr suburbs' ? You know, some arguments only including content from Social situation in the French suburbs and Allegations of French apartheid ? NicDumZ ~ 07:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge tag on "apartheid" article 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: :There are nine entries in the "External links". Three seems to be an acceptable number and of course, everyone has their favorite to add for four. The problem is that none is needed for article promotion. 
*ELpoints #3) states: 
*LINKFARM states: 
*WP:ELMIN: . 
*WP:ELCITE: 
*WP:ELBURDEN:   --  Otr500 (talk) 23:21, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links