Talk:Shachtmanism

message: Who is this "Carter" can we get a full name? Jackliddle 00:06, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: [Untitled]

message: Does it make sense to describe Shachtmanism as a form of Trotskyism, when this only described a decade of his long life? He was a Communist in the 20s, a Trotskyist in the 30s and from the 1940s onwards seems not to have described himself as a Trotskyist, but to have clearly used terms like 'trotskyism' to refer to the Fourth International rather than the ISL. (see, for example,  Crucially, the Shachtmanite groups divered from Trotskyism on all the points that differentiate it from Leninism: permanent revolution, political revolution and the building of the Fourth International. The point about permanent revolution is especially useful here: the post-WW2 movements which, to mainstream Trotskyism, reflected permanent revolution were seem by the Shatchmanite groups as aspirational new exploiting classes, similarly to Cliff's idea of 'deflected permanent revolution' leading back to capitalism. --DuncanBCS 13:50, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *It needs to point out that it is usually seen, by both its enemies and proponents, as a form of Trotskyism; it could also point out Shachtman's usage of the term and perhaps use Marxist or Leninist in the introduction. Warofdreams talk 01:30, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *That's a nice solution. Thanks! I'll make those changes. --DuncanBCS 15:55, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trotskyism? 

message: The article says "Left Shachtmanism, influenced by Max Shachtman's work of the 1940s, sees Stalinist nations as being potentially imperialist and does not offer any support to their leadership". In fact, right Shachtmanites also take this view. I think we need a bit though of a thought between this idea of 'left' and 'right'. The mainstream, as reflected by the ISL, was neither 'right' in the sence of being neo-conservative nor 'left' in the sence of consistently opposing capitalist counter-revolution: consider Trieste and Korea. --DuncanBCS 09:42, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The ISL would dispute that capitalism represented a regression for workers in a barbaric state under bureaucratic collectivism, and in particular that support for that state against capitalism represented the left.  They saw left in terms of being for the workers, for what they saw as a consistent Marxist programme, and perhaps being for democratic control.  "Left Shachtmanism" is, like Shachtmanism itself, a rather unsatisfactory term, but one which has been used by both critics of the ideology and neutral commentators, so I can't see any suitable replacement. Warofdreams talk 01:30, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Left and Right Shachtmanism 

message: I am baffled by the comment that his support for the French Turn was "ultimately leading to his break with Trotsky", and suspect this is original research similar to that by the same author on French Turn. Can anyone find references? The French Turn ended in the US in 1938 -- but Shachtman;s break was far later. --Duncan 03:05, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  French Turn? 

message: I have not been able to find a supportive reference to this claim, and have removed it: Some critics, such as Michael Lind and Justin Raimondo, have even gone so far as to insist that there is a direct lineage from Shachtmanism to neoconservatism.  They base this on the resemblance between the doctrines of permanent revolution and "global democratic revolution", stipulating furthermore that the application of that doctrine to the cause of social democracy, and thus to liberal democracy, was the very basis of the so called French Turn, the position which Shachtman steadfastly upheld, ultimately leading to his break with Trotsky. I can't find any references in which they argue this. --Duncan 13:22, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  French Turn claims 

message: The link at the end of this entry gives a 404 error. So I propose we just remove it. What do you think? --Trunk68 11:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External link does not work 

message: Is it possible for this article to have a better title?  "Shachtmanism" seems to be a derisive term; note that the term "Trotskyite", considered to be derisive by some (in part because it was used by Stalinists, no doubt) redirects to "Trotskyist", which is considered to be less derisive.  Should this appear under "pejorative political terms".  Is there a neutral, non-POV term that would better describe this ideology?  Rlquall 20:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better title?