Talk:Buffalo Sabres/Archive 1

message: Deleted out vandalism, the trivia about the mascot (if this is at all pertinent, it sure isn't top end), pruned out NTBF back to close to a dozen per Format, and again per Team Pages Format deleted out Gillies and Fuhr, who still don't register as significant Sabres.  Those who disagree are welcome to visit the talk page for the Wikipedia Team Pages Format to see if they can get a consensus to change the format.  RGTraynor 01:43, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Irrelevancies

message: Interim-captains (In my opinon), shouldn't be on the captains list. Just because a player has worn the 'C', while the captain is injured & out of the line-up, he doen't belong on the Captains list. Example 1: Andreychuk & Mogilny don't belong on the Sabres Captains list. If we listed all the INTERIM-CAPTAINS on each Nhl article's "Captains List" some articles would be unecessary long lists. Example 2: the Habs have had Robinson & Skrudland & McPhee & Denis Savard serve as INTERIM-captains ,yet they don't belong on the Captains list. GoodDay 21:12, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My opinon is that, a Captain (LaFontaine), when injured & out of the line-up ,doesn't usually get stripped of his Captaincy (That's why I've disputed Mogilny's captaincy). However, since the Sabres website lists Mogilny as a captain (not interim-captain), then you're correct & I'm in error. I'll edit the LaFontaine & Mogilny articles (succession boxes), to show Mogilny was Captain. My apologies please, I needed you to convince me of my errors, which you have. GoodDay 22:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The NHL Media Guide cites Mogilny as having been a Sabres captain.  It doesn't cite Andreychuk, however.  RGTraynor 08:04, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Captains List

message: In the 1999 season summary, I believe there is significant bias in the article.
Point by Point:
In the sixth game of the seven-game series, Brett Hull's triple-overtime goal - one that remains in dispute - How can something remain in dispute 5 and 1/2 years after it was decided conclusively by NHL officials still be "in dispute" ?  If something was decided, it can no longer be in dispute. 
as Hull's skate was visibly in the goal crease--ended the series, and the Stars were awarded the Cup. (In 1999, it was illegal to score a goal whilst an offensive player's skate was in the goal crease. - This statement ignores the puck possesion continuance rule, that was was even discussed by Gary Thorne and Bill Clement while there 'appeared' to be some question to the legality of the goal. The 1999 NHL rulebook also allowed for a person in posession of the puck to enter the goal crease. Hull's first shot was from outside of the crease, while shooting momentum carried his foot into the crease. The subsequent 2 rebounds came right back to Hull's stick. The goal was allowed to stand by officials on the ice, and contrary to popular thought, was reviewed by replay officials. Possession of the puck was what made the goal legal in the eyes of NHL officials. The puck meerly bounced off Hasek's left leg pad, and was only controlled on the stick by Hull's 3 shots. Possesion of the puck was therefore maintained by Hull, which would make the goal legal. 
At the time, even Dallas Morning News hockey writer Keith Gave questioned the legality of the goal.
This may have been the case, but Keith Gave was notrious in Dallas for NOT being a pro-Stars beat writer.  His tenure at the Dallas Morning News was short lived, in comparison to writers at the Morning News since.
Regardless, the article fails to mention that those supporting the legality of the goal included Al Strachan of the Toronto Sun, Don Cherry of the CBC, and Wayne Gretzky - all of whom generally have broader appeal and understanding of the game than Keith Gave would.  
This article has a general appearance of being either a) Pro-Buffalo Sabres  or  b) Anti-Dallas Stars  or c) Both
I suggest opposing viewpoints on this 'controversial' event in the history of the Buffalo Sabres, Dallas Stars, and the NHL be allowed on this page.
: Well, Hull's skate was also visibly in the crease, the 1999 rule was on the books, and I presume that Gave did indeed question the legality of the goal.  Those are all facts, not conjectures or surmises, and that is what Wikipedia is about.  Conjectures, surmises, speculations and irrelevancies include how long Gave was a Dallas-based reporter, what his reputation for being slavishly pro-Stars was, and who might be more knowledgeable about the sport.  These might certainly be valid counterarguments in a debating forum -- although I can't think of a tangent less NPOV than discussing whether or not the fellow was a traitor to Dallas sports for calling a goal as he saw it, green and gold or not --  but against exactly what are you trying to argue?  That the goal was one of the most notorious controversies in Stanley Cup history?  That you started a debate on the issue is yet more proof -- if any demonstrations were needed -- to the contrary.  Indeed, it may be the most controversial single goal in Cup history; I can't think of one more so, off the top of my head.  RGTraynor 19:13, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think its neutral as stands (minus that long-winded play-by-play that was deleted). Basically its stating that there was a controversy. Are you disputing that? By the way I'm neutral in this: I not very fond of either team: Sabres because I was in Rochester at the time and I had to put up with all the whining from the ESN sportcasters. Stars: because they made hockey utterly  boring throughout the 90ies and into the 21st century. ccwaters 19:42, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  1999 Stanley Cup Final -- Ignorance of Possesion Rules and Bias in wording 

message: Second, during a face-off and through the fog, Sabres center Jim Lorentz spotted a bat flying across the rink, raised his stick, and killed it, thus marking the only time an animal was killed directly by a player during an NHL game
Human beings are animals aren't they? These people would seem to qualify then. Pedantry, I suppose. — GT 11:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe the only one intentionally killed? Masterson and Cecil were accidental deaths. Vesperholly 06:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inaccurate? 

message: Just wanted to point out (due to recent anon edit), Briere & Drury are co-captains and listed as such. Briere and Drury take turns wearing the 'C' on a game-by-game basis. While one player is wearing the 'C' the other is wearing an 'A'. GoodDay 16:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Briere & Drury 

message: Err ... I'm wondering under what criteria one could possibly call him a star?  In only one season did he get as many as 20 goals and had only 300 points in his whole career.  It's odd to compare him to Mike Foligno, a recognized star who scored 355 goals in his career with five 30+ goal seasons, and whose career scoring high is nearly twice that of Ruff's.  Ruff was a good leader and had a decent career as a third-liner, but that's about it.  RGTraynor 05:37, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're comparing two different types of players. Not a star in the scope of the NHL, but definitely a key player on the Sabres teams of the 80's. A players worth goes beyond mere goals and assists - after all he (not Foligno) replaced Perreault as the captain when Gil retired. I agree - not a "star" - "key player" is a better term and in terms of contributions to the franchise, he's now done more for the team than Foligno ever did, but I'll leave your edit. Yankees76 13:11, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well ... when it comes down to it, hockey's about two things, and two things only: putting the puck in the other guy's net and keeping it out of your own.  No one ever claimed Foligno was poor defensively (anything but, actually), and he captained the Sabres himself (succeeding Ruff, come to that), so you can't knock his leadership either.  Ruff has done a good job as coach, but no one would have ever dared trade him in his playing days even up for any of the other five guys mentioned, and probably not for some other key Sabres of the period either, such as John Tucker, Mike Ramsay, Tony McKegney or even the Christian Ruutuus of the world.  RGTraynor 18:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And you can't forget Foligno's bucket too. He gets on the page just for that! In all seriousness, I probably underestimated Foligno and over estimated Lindy.  Yankees76 18:52, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lindy Ruff 

message: The new logos being speculated as the upcoming 2006-07 logos don't really seem to do the article justice by being stuffed down where they are, and flowing into the team's record section.  I'm not really sure how to go about making it look better, since putting them anywhere else in the article would not make much sense, as they'd no longer be placed alongside the section talking about the speculation.  If anyone can think of a good way to take care of this, that'd be great.-Resident Lune 21:50, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Possibly some image tidying up?

message: Doing some digging in the news, it would appear that ... yes, several newspapers have actually run stories on the issue not only concerning fan's displeasure over the new, projected logo, but also on the Fix the Logo website, which there has been somewhat of a minor edit war over.  The newspaper articles are here, and here.
With that said, there is the issue of the Buffalo News articles being removed after only a limited amount of time.  But despite this, a verifiable and legitimate article is still a legitimate article, even if it may be removed after only a limited time.  Is there anything we can do to try to get some sort of happy medium between this barrage of IPs editing in 
Fix the Logo and commenting on public opinion, or simply ignoring it completely?--Resident Lune 22:02, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We compromised already by allowing unconfirmed speculatory logos to appear in the article. In less than 2 months they will all buy their new jerseys anyway and the signatures will be forgotten along with all the other useless petitions at petitiononline.com. Yeah, its ugly, but the section dealing with the French Connection needs more attention. ccwaters 00:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - again refrain from posting non NPOV material regarding the new uniforms - that includes posting fan creations and speculative pictures of the jersey. What has been verified is that yes, there will be new jerseys with a new logo and they will be unveiled Sept. 24, that the original blue and gold jersey with the buffalo and crossed sabres will be their third jersey that they will wear at 15 home games this season, and that the logo that has been circulating the net is the new logo, but it is not the exact symbol - only a part of it, and that nearly 23,000 Sabres fans have already signed an online petition protesting this logo. That's it. Anything else is original research and has no place here. Yankees76 20:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's sometimes hard to maintain NPOV sometimes with an issue like this, with the fan's passion running so high.  But Yankees76 is right - we have to resist the temptation to editorialize or do OR.  Once the new sweaters are unveiled and the furor dies down, any objection to a sentence describing the controversy (such as it is) and adding http://www.fixthelogo.com/ to the links as a significant fansite? --Chancemichaels 19:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The website in question offers no value other than being a gateway to petitiononline.com. I don't see it becoming anymore than that. ccwaters 19:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Buffalo Sabres logo edits, reverts, and issues

message: I've redone the Sabers site to reflect the team's new colors and logo.
:And I've reverted your edits. Please see the dicussion above. Note that the leaked logo is not the final logo and will not be revealed until September 16, 2006. Thanks. Yankees76 21:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fixed 

message: Would someone be so kind as to advise me if it's standard practice to use 'The Swords' interchangeably with 'The Sabres'? I'm unaware of any such precedent and my prior edit to correct this was reverted. 24.50.118.245 01:43, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Issue has been resolved 24.50.118.245 03:11, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of 'The Swords' 

message: I've added a discription of the Sabres captaincy in the 2003-04. Pointing the fact ,the captaincy was being rotated. I'v done this edit for unfamilliar readers. If anyone disagrees with my edit, then by all means revert, I won't dispute. GoodDay 18:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Team Captains, 2003-04

message: What's the name of the Sabres play-by-play guy that goes "SCOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!"Ohyeh 16:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're looking for the amazing Rick Jeanneret --T-rex 17:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Wow; how that guy got himself a job doing play-by-play is gonna to amaze me!Ohyeh 02:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're kidding - he's one of the best in the league. He's a living legend in Buffalo. Yankees76 04:06, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Personal Opinion. In mine, hes one of the worst out there. Has a terrible voice. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.91.214.14 (talk) 12:22, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The game would never be the same without Rick. I turn down the TV and turn up the radio when a game comes on! Streetsabre 02:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Play by Play guy 

message: Just before the vandalism of 15:07, 6 December 2006 (edit) by 168.169.26.3, he made another (minor) edit that changed a number - someone might want to check it. -DoctorW 20:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: Seeking consensus (for other team pages as well). How should we list them? 'By season'? (New York Rangers, for instance use 'by season' method). Or leave it 'by players'? Here' what I mean-  
PROPOSAL (by season)
*Gilbert Perreault, 1981-86
*Gilbert Perreault; Lindy Ruff, 1986-87
*Lindy Ruff, 1987-88
*Lindy Ruff; Mike Foligno, 1988-89
*Mike Foligno, 1989-90
OR, THE CURRENT STYLE (by player)
*Gilbert Perreault, 1981-86
*Lindy Ruff, 1986-89
*Mike Foligno, 1989-90  
If consensus is for 'by season', then I'll make the required edits. GoodDay 23:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm signing out for the night. Hope to get feedback, on my proposal. Cheers. GoodDay 23:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since there's been no objections, I'll add the new edits. If disagree, revert, I won't dispute. GoodDay 18:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess it's a bit late now, but I like how you've changed it, it seems to follow a better flow --T-rex 19:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not too late. GoodDay 20:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I also prefer by player.  Provides the info in a more compact and readable presentation. -- Jeff3000 20:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My reasons for proposing, list by seasons? There were a few NHL team pages that had their list by seasons, while others were by players. I was looking to have all 30 team pages the same. However if consensus is for 'list by players' (by 22:00 UTC today), I'll edit ALL 30 teams in that fashion. Then I'll not tamper with NHL page team captains list, anymore. GoodDay 20:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's past 22:00 UTC. Consensus are 1-For, 2-Against. Now will change to 'list by players'. GoodDay 22:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've now edited ALL 30 NHL team pages' team captain lists. They're all 'now' listed 'by players' (even edited the defunct NHL teams). Thanks for your (my peers) imput. GoodDay 23:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for all the hard work.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 17:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Team Captains (seeking consensus)

message: To differentiate Captains & Alternate captains from acting Captains & acting alternate captains (eg. Phillips filling in for Alfreddson & Warrener filling in for Yelle). I propose making acting 'C' & 'A's bolden, while regular 'C' & 'A's, are wiki-linked to Captain (ice hockey) & Captain (ice hockey)#Alternate captains. EXAMPLE: Ottawa's current roster- Alfredsson - C while Phillips is C. Prosposal made with unfamillier NHL team page readers in mind. GoodDay 22:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Furthermore, this proposal (if accepted) will cut down on near weekly wiki-link changes (due to injuries & recoveries of players). GoodDay 01:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Current Roster

message: As the Consensus was to list captains (by players) NOT (by seasons), I've re-added 2004-05 (not as NHL lockout, rather as calender years) as Obviously Sabres rotating captaincy was uncertain during this time-period (April 2004 to October 2005). GoodDay 22:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For other team captains, See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Player pages format
for more details. (I know, I should have posted on the Team pages formt, my mistake). GoodDay 00:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Captains (again)

message: I've added 2004-05 NHL lockout tags -example:  (Lockout) . This helps explains why Sabres captaincy was vacant during that time. GoodDay
 16:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Captains (yet, again)

message: Sorry, but what was wrong with the numbers in the stats table?  I liked the fact that it said "Conference titles 5 (<dates here>).  It made it very clear and gave a bit of info you would have to sit and count to get.  Dorvaq reverted the changes to the Sabres page.  Just wondering why.Ccrashh 16:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Most likely cause there is a standard that is followed for all teams. --Djsasso 17:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we change the standard? :) Ccrashh 18:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You'd have to bring it up on the talk page of the team template. --Djsasso 19:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sabres stats table

message: In 2006-07 Hunter played with the Rochester Americans (Sabres AHL affiliate), I've no recollection of him playing with the Sabres. Let's wait until he makes the lineup (Sabres website having listed as #0, notwithstanding). PS- someone keeps adding him to the Sabres 'current lineup'. GoodDay 22:49, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seeking to end this dispute, and get a clearer 'criteria' on NHL team roster inclusions (WPH). GoodDay 17:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dylan Hunter

message: Not to quibble, but shouldn't there be some objectivity in this article? It starts out with "The Buffalo Sabres is the best professional ice hockey team around."
:Just some vandalism that hadn't been caught.  I've removed it. Skudrafan1 (talk) 23:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Objectivity?

message: Needs to be mentioned. Love each other, or perish. ~Auden 05:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mascot

message: Does anyone know anything about the Sabres' theme song (and I don't mean Sabre Dance)? It sounds like the title is Thank you, Sabres, and here's the link to a video containing the song which starts at around the 1:25 mark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7YMNs96vMQ&feature=related. Song sounds old. Thanks!Ohyeh (talk) 13:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "Thank You Sabres" by Donna McDaniel, per http://www.sabresalumni.com/media/jukebox.php Skudrafan1 (talk) 23:23, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theme Song??? 

message: Can someone please fix the home/away/alternate jerseys in the infobox?
--With a resounding slap of the stick that resounds around joe louis area, 4to3rw 21:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It helps if you mention what you think is wrong with them. -Djsasso (talk) 03:07, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The image was deleted.  I restored it last night, but had to leave before I could respond here that it was fixed.  This happened to the Lightning jersey image as well.  Near as I can tell, a couple of the images were tagged as unused fair use at some point, and an admin didn't bother to verify whether this was true before deleting. Resolute 14:02, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  infobox 

message: I'm just wondering what the primary logo is.  There has been no official press release or anything of the sorts that has announced a "new" logo change.   Hopefully somebody has some insight into this matter. Warriorshockey1 (talk) 14:26, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know its still this one. Haven't heard an announcement that they have a new uniform or anything so until something official pops up. -DJSasso (talk) 14:43, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats what i thought.  I know Larry Quinn said something about going vintage for the 40th anniversary but that has yet to be seen. Warriorshockey1 (talk) 14:46, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Logo 

message: This section goes on a tangent about the suffering of Buffalo sports fans and is not objective. This appears to be a fan or someone with an emotional attachment to the team, and this does not belong on a page about the team in general. It is much more well suited for a blog.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Philhelm (talk • contribs) 16:12, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Goal 

message: I thought we've always used the 'full season', even if the player retired 'before' new-years day; thus 1970-87, instead of 1970-86. Note: Perreault retired in November 1986. GoodDay (talk) 02:52, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gilbert Perreault's ''Retired Number'' entry 

message: The Alternate jersey has been retired and needs to be removed.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.2.246.20 (talk) 17:18, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: So remove it.  This is your encyclopedia, too.  Powers T 15:31, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jerseys 

message: Someone needs to add some content to Sabre Dance about how this song is played regularly after Sabre goals and in Sabre marketting. I am adding the Sabre Dance article to Template:Buffalo Sabres and adding the template to the Sabre Dance article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  14:09, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Sabre Dance]] 

message: Buffalo's days in the Northeast division are over. It has been officially announced that new divisions are in effect starting this upcoming season. Just because the division doesn't have a geographical title does not make the move untrue. They should be listed by what their new division is being called at the time being, "Division C." Then if they give the division a new updated name, change it once again. The Northeast division ended at the end of the 2012-13 season, that season is over and so is the Northeast Division.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.91.166.242 (talk) 06:18, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Division 

message: I was wondering if we could shorten the headings.   The years listed are currently cumbersome, of the format "1970-71 - 1980-81".  I propose that it is much easier to read "1970-1981."
While the shorter version might not be technically the same as the long version to the novice reader, I think most hockey fans can understand how the season usually spans a calendar year.  Furthermore, it's simply the precedent for almost every other NHL team page.   Please see History of the Montreal Canadiens, Ottawa Senators, New York Rangers, [[New York Islanders], and Pittsburgh Penguins for some of the roughly twenty examples.  Only one other team, the Los Angeles Kings, has our long format.
Kallinan (talk) 00:17, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Eric Ando (talk) 02:30, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

text: Okay, I'll give it another week or so (or until I remember to check again) for people to pipe in.  As things stand, I'll shorten the headings to match the vast majority of hockey pages.  Last time I made the change without asking, and someone just reverted it.  This time I've done my due diligence. Kallinan (talk) 17:26, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headings 

message: There's a claim in the Retired Numbers section that Sabres draftees in the 2011 and 2014 years were given jerseys with '11 and '14 on them instead of bare numbers, in order to distinguish them from the retired sweaters. But I've looked at pictures of Armia ('11) and Reinhart ('14) from their draft days and I don't see any apostrophes. Is there a source for this contention?  Powers T 12:31, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: That is clearly not the case, but even if there is, I would just remove that as trivia anyway. Resolute 14:18, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I just wonder where it came from, and whether maybe the apostrophe was only on the back numbers or something.  Powers T 14:28, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious 

message: This has been removed several times under the conference championship heading, so just for FYI reasons I wanted to let everyone know that between 1974-75 and 1980-81, conference championships were awarded during the regular season and not the playoffs. Buffalo had the top record in the Wales Conference in 1979-80 and was awarded the Prince of Wales trophy, making them the 1979-80 Wales Conference champions. Please do not change this. Darthflyer 10:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for mentioning this. I noticed it, and was about to post something here asking if it should be removed. I'll leave it as is. --My Pants Metal (talk) 19:20, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: 1979-80 Wales Conference Champions