Talk:Suicide by cop

message: The discussion of "Victim-Precipitated Suicide" also seems to echo the Circumcellions, a fourth century Christian group ( involved with the Donatists ) who attacked people they considered the enemies of the church in the hope of being martyred - including alleged assaults on fully armed Roman Legionaires, which is the historical analogue of the situation discussed here.  This is allegedly discussed in WHC Frends, "The Rise of Christianity", cited on  the African Christianity Homepage.  If anyone has this book and can confirm the passages, I think they'd be a great addition to this article. --219.164.33.42 06:23, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:   Circumcellions 

message: Is the term used in an ironic sense often (if at all).  Although it is plausible that suicide by cop is used this way "in some circles", I couldn't find any references to this practice.  But that may just mean I wasn't thorough enough.  MSchmahl 01:10, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ironic? 

message: Does anyone know if government statistics count suicide by cop as a suicide death? Gflores Talk 22:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: counts as suicide?

message: [Removed: Author Jay Black of  Guttersnipe, Zarboki, and MSchmahl disagree over the inclusion of (a) Michelle Chan's Jesus S.B.C. theory and (b) long description of Guttersnipe novella in External links.  They eventually agree on a simple citation-style link.  Talk removed by User:Jay Black, possibly as part of a MindWipe.]
::On a more constructive note, I also think we have to agree that S.B.C. is a fairly common principle in literature as well as filmmaking. I myself came to the page after watching an old episode of NCIS that features this concept and wording. The examples should be limited to fairly well-known works. If you want a page that is a list of all examples of S.B.C. then make a separate article and link it from here. Surely the aim of the page should be to inform about the topic not list every example in pop-culture. Zarboki 08:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree completely with Zarboki.  I see no indication, either in this article or elsewhere, that Michelle Chan is a reputable biblical scholar.  I was on the verge of removing the disputed content myself. — MSchmahl 09:34, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fine with it like it is now, just like how that Chan stuff was redone. imo, if you've got something interesting that you did personally but that isn't "notable" just put it as a link at the bottom with a short description. -Snpoj 04:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of "Michelle Chan" essay material 

message: Anyone know why he was included in the "see also" list?  There's nothing in his article indicating the reason for the link, assuming you make a distinction between intending to commit suicide (for whatever reason) vs. an unwillingness to be "taken alive," for which there would be plenty of rational reasons, such as surety of being tortured or killed later anyway.
:I hadn't noticed it until now. Yes, that should go, it's not a relevant example.  This phenomenon requires that the person deliberately provoke lethal action of law enforcement, with the intent of being killed in that way.Legitimus (talk) 02:56, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: John Wilkes Booth?

message: To be quite frank, "cop" does sound quite tacky and is an americanism not used widely elsewhere. I would suggest that the name be changed to "police assisted suicide" or "Suicide by provoking lethal response", or something else a little more encyclopedic. This is not intended as a dig at whoever created this article, just a suggestion to make it sound a little more professional if you will. Benjaminstewart05 20:54, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, and believe the article should be changed to "Police assisted suicide" King-of-no-pants 19:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to have to disagree -- I hear this frequently reported in the (American) media as "suicide-by-cop". In fact, it seems to come most often from law enforcement officers and others in that community. I have no cites right now, but as someone who watches crime trends in the U.S., I am content with the term. As a Wikipedia user, "suicide by cop" is the search string i used to find the article/subject, and I was pleased to find it on the first hit. I understand that without cites I'm merely stating opinion, but I believe the term to be entrenched enough that WP:CITE and WP:V could be satisfied if needed. I guess I would recommend that reports from reliable news sources (which source crime and psych experts) be relied upon to verify that "suicide by cop" is the predominant term for this subject. Merci -- ManfrenjenStJohn 21:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On second thought, I realize that my position may be unique to American use of the phenomenon. But I think the term "police-assisted suicide" is simply not recognized here, and that if referred to as such, no layman would understand it to be phenomenon we are discussing. To anyone outside the U.S., all I can say is that "suicide by cop" is what it's called here, as surely as the fact that we call french-fries what our British brothers call chips. I agree the article should meet the global standards of Wikipedia, but not without noting that "suicide by cop" is the preferred terminology in the US, and I am certain that I have read that the term originated in the law enforcement community here. Sorry to be your typical myopic American :) -- Amend it to make it global, but keep the American viewpoint -- That's my suggestion. Thanks. -- ManfrenjenStJohn 21:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I completely agree. "Cop" is a slang term - whether in the UK or the USA. It's not an Atlantic divide, this one: the slang word "copper" exists in British English too, as a substitute for "policeman" (or, to be gender-neutral, "police officer"). Nevertheless, "cop" remains slang, informal English on both sides of the Atlantic. An encyclopædia article should not be titled with slang, when more formal terms could be used. I support a move to "Police-assisted suicide". EuroSong talk 09:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Does anyone have anything more to add to this? If there are no objections, I intend to move it. EuroSong talk 21:30, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rename

message: What about state-assisted suicide, in which the death is not immediate, but comes as the result of judgment handed down by the court? E.g., Timothy McVeigh. Aldrich Hanssen (talk) 05:53, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a similar concept, and can be linked to, though it works differently.  It's arguable that the person in state-assisted suicide did not intend suicide all along, but rather they prefer death to life imprisonment only once they are caught.  It could also be argued that their actions a trial are a "reverse-psychology" approach to evading execution, in that they are trying to create a impression that they are mentally unfit (most states will not execute legally insane people) or as a way to deny the retributive satisfaction of the court and public, in that the court is given them what they want rather than a punishment.Legitimus (talk) 14:42, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Are there accepted criteria from a WP:RS that properly distinguish Suicide by cop and State-assisted suicide? FeatherPluma (talk) 03:12, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "State-assisted suicide" 

message: Under examples is this blurb:
Leeland Eisenberg, who took hostages in one of Hillary Clinton's campaign offices in December 2007, claimed afterwards it was an attempted suicide by cop.
The link for Leeland Eisenberg redirects to an article on Hillary Clinton's 2008 campaign, but there's aboslutely no mention of Eisenberg or the incident that took place. Maybe a new article for Eisenberg should be intitiated? I really want to know what happened, because I apparently missed it during the campaign! 96.238.115.21 (talk) 02:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leeland Eisenberg 

message: The 3rd level section below was moved from the article.  Move back as appropriate, keeping in mind  and WP:NOT — MrDolomite • Talk 17:17, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's possible to put this in the article-76.21.106.232 (talk) 05:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Trivia list moved from article

message: *In the end of the film Tell Them Willie Boy Is Here, the title character (played by Robert Blake) tries to shoot down his pursuer, Sheriff Cooper (Robert Redford). After killing the Paiute outlaw, Cooper checks his gun which turns out to be unloaded.  He preferred to die rather than be captured.
*In the closing sequence of the 1970 film The Family aging mob hitman Jeff (Charles Bronson), after killing his ex-girlfriend (played by his real life wife Jill Ireland), provokes a rookie police officer to kill him.
*In the 1993 film Falling Down, a disgruntled man (Michael Douglas) provokes a police sergeant (Robert Duvall) into killing him by pretending to draw a weapon from his pocket — actually a toy water pistol. He chooses to end his life in this way so that his family can collect on his life insurance policy, which would not pay any benefits if he killed himself.
*In the book "The Outsiders", Dallas Winston takes out an unloaded gun in front of the arriving police, and is immediately gunned down.
*Tibor Fischer's collection of short stories Don't read this book if you are stupid contains a short story from the perspective of a man who is preparing to die by 'suicide by cop'.
*In the 2007 film Reign Over Me, Adam Sandler's character, torn by grief over the death of his family, uses an unloaded gun in an attempt to provoke two NYPD officers to kill him.
*In a season 4 episode of The West Wing, "Evidence of Things Not Seen", shots are fired at the White House. The assailant is later revealed to be a mentally unbalanced man attempting suicide by cop.
* In the 2002 film The Recruit, Walther Burke (Al Pacino) is revealed as a traitor by CIA rookie James Clayton (Colin Farrell). He turns his back to the responding S.W.A.T. team, says 'Good-bye' to Clayton and then aims an unloaded pistol at the S.W.A.T. team, causing them to shoot and kill him, believing him to be a threat.
* In Season Two of the American TV show Prison Break, former Chicago Mob Boss John Abruzzi played by Peter Stormare, acting on false information about the location of the mob informant Fibonacci is lured in to an FBI trap. He refuses to heed Agent Mahone's (William Fichtner) call to surrender and raises his weapon at the FBI team in a threatening manner. The FBI officers open fire and he is killed instantly.
* In the 2004 film Paparazzi, Actor Bo Laramie played by Cole Hauser and his wife and child are involved in a car accident brought upon by a group of paparazzi. In a revenge plot he plants a movie prop gun in one of the paparazzi's car and calls the police stating "there's a guy waving a gun". This in turn leads to the paparazzo being pulled over, he attempts to produce his license but unknowingly pulls the prop gun out of his coat pocket and is gunned down by police. A newscaster later describes the incident as 'suicide by cop'.
* In the 2004 film New Police Story, the main antagonist, named Joe, faces several hundred police officers as well as Officer Chan, played by Jackie Chan. He and Chan engage in a race to put their pistols together first, and Chan wins. Joe's father, a police captain, steps forward and screams at Joe, who first began killing police officers because he hated his father. Joe looks at Chan, and in an act of reparation, helps Chan; he then places the unloaded magazine in his pistol and points it at Chan, who knows it is unloaded. Chan shouts for the officers not to shoot, but the SDU officers shoot and kill him.
* In the British TV show Spooks, a woman involved in a terrorist plot commits suicide in this way to avoid being questioned.
*In the 2002 film Equilibrium, Sean Bean's character forces the main protagonist (played by Christian Bale) into shooting him in this manner.
*In the 2005 novel, and subsequent film, The Da Vinci Code, the character Silas committed suicide by cop after a vicious gunfight.
*In the film Four Brothers, one of the protagonists, Angel tricks corrupt detective Fowler into committing suicide in this way by kidnapping him in his house whilst his girlfriend tells the police she thinks he intends to kill the officer. When the SWAT team arrives, Angel reveals a fake wire claiming to be working with the police and to have recorded Fowler admitting to murdering a fellow officer. Angel then allows Fowler to snatch the gun from him, and Fowler goes outside and opens fire on the SWAT who have in fact come to rescue him (and even shout to him that they are "here to help you!"), forcing them to shoot and kill him.
*In the 1994 film Jimmy Hollywood, the main character (played by Joe Pesci) attempts suicide by cop when he is surrounded by police officers in a movie theater (a homage to Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid). When he does go through with it, he survives because his girlfriend (played by Victoria Abril) told the police ahead of time that he only had blanks.
* In the 2009 adaption of the book Taking of Pelham 123 Ryder's two assistants choose this method of death rather then go to prison
:It's possible to put this in the article-76.21.106.232 (talk) 05:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  In fiction 

message: Ehm, it isn't suicide if someone ELSE kills you, right? If so, suicide by cop is not suicide, because you don't kill yourself 89.249.0.170 (talk) 17:50, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Suicide is the act of someone deliberately bringing about his/her own death. And yes, I realize this contribution is a year too late. 76.178.228.63 (talk) 11:57, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is it suicide if someone ELSE kills you ? 

message: This appears to be a broader-topic that 'suicide by cop' should be a section of. This would also be using a more encyclopedic, less colloquial-style expression.ZayZayEM (talk) 01:35, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: i think it, the entire article, a flimsy excuse for a full fledge article. It is a part of a bigger article on law enforcement which should be linked  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.70.128 (talk) 13:19, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

text: That reasoning is flawed, Wikipedia is NOT a real encyclopedia, it doesn't even come close to one. 109.153.163.3 (talk) 19:13, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested move to [[Victim-precipitated homicide]] or [[Officer-assisted suicide]] 

message: Can statistics be posted over how successful suicide by cop is in relation to attempts, or does it not fit into the article?
--45.48.109.162 (talk) 21:01, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  percent of successful suicide by cop 

message: The overview states:
:There are two broad categories of "suicide by cop". The first is when someone has committed a crime and is being pursued by the police and decides that they would rather die than be arrested. These people may not otherwise be suicidal but may simply decide that life is not worth living if they are incarcerated and thus will provoke police to kill them.
This is certainly not the only motivation. In many cases this happens because the perpetrators want to make sure that they won't be interrogated and risk implicating others. Islamic terrorists are usually instructed not to let themselves be captured alive. They usually opt to open fire at police both because suicide by police is not forbidden in Islam and to take as many policemen down with them, but they will kill themselves if they have no other choice. They are many recent examples of this (see the recent waves of terrorist attacks in Europe and related attempted arrests for instance). This should be mentioned somehow. Bomazi (talk) 11:09, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a separate and distinct concept. This article is about a specific phenomenon where the goal is to be shot dead by police.  From a psychological and sociological perspective, this is distinct from engaging in a firefight knowing one will lose as well as self-inflicted gunshots.  I can't help but noticed it also appears to be tainted by political subtext.Legitimus (talk) 12:31, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overview 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This article could use a section written by someone knowledgeable in the area about the effect this has on the cop. Someone researching this (and maybe thinking about doing it?) should be aware of how this effects the officer psychologically and (depending on what the sources say) whether being involved in a shooting might have an effect on the officer's career. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:25, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested improvement