Talk:Siege of Vienna (1529)

message: The print shown is an engraving. A lithograph is drawn on limestone with a greasy pencil and the stone is then acid-etched: a later technique with a different effect: cf. Gustave Doré. --Wetman 23:26, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: This is article has a number of key things wrong with it......
1. Extremely biased in favour of the Austrian side, with a tone of writing that is far more sympathetic to the Austrian Resistance. The poor, innocent people of Vienna are treated as heroes, while the Barbaric "Asian Horde" of Ottomans coming to pillage, rape and burn the last standing symbol of Christian hope and deterrence in Europe, as essentially some sort of bogeyman. There is far too much details that can never be ascertained in the this Article, and thus should be removed all together. Like knowing exactly what kind of weapons soldiers used, how and when men attacked and retreated and describing in detail battles with lines like "..the ottomans were greeted with Halberds as they approached the breach, then suddenly!!....", sounds more like an Austrian child's story book of Medieval Folklore. These kinds of irrevelant, and almost impossible to verify or ascertain details should be left out if no one is sure of them.
2. Certain lines of clear POV and bias... that I think should be removed.
"Of all the clashes between the armies of Christianity and Islam, this one arguably did most to turn the tide against the Ottomans"
Clashes between Christianity and Islam? So now the battle has a religious nature to it, this epic struggle between two ideologies; but then a few further lines down its referred to as the clash between the Ottoman Empire and Austria? This is very misleading statement, there is little to show this siege was at all driven by religious nature or a desire by the Ottomans to crush Christianity. They had just gotten a foothold in Europe and with a relatively weakened and disorientated force of Austro-Hungarians, and Europeans in the way; Vienna was an obstacle that stood in the way of a clear Ottoman presence in Europe. It was pure military stratergy and from a tactical standpoint a good objective. Mehmed II wasn't after Vienna's Christians, as some sort of 'vengeful' quest, and the European's own religious Zealotry and fervor were self-evident in this battle as the primary means of stirring up a fanatical civilian resistance. If anything that should be mentioned first. 
The inhabitants of the city reacted with terror when news reached them of the advancing Ottoman force. Stories of the janissaries' murderous brutality
Yes, stories. Old wives' tales of the day, Bar room gossip and Unverified wild claims and historical trivia about the fearsome brutality of groups of Muslim Holy Warriors.... *ahem* much like today's world, eh? Its scare tactics and propaganda mainly used to stir up nationalism and a sense of importance in the Viennese Armed Resistance. They truly believed they were the last "bastion" for Christianity, and they had to fight to the death for what they believed in; however, the reality of the situation was that Vienna was simply a major strategic and tactical metropolis that if captured would just give the Ottoman's a firmer foothold in Europe. Surely if they did capture Vienna, they most likely would have been driven sooner from Europe by the united religious zeal of the European armies; BUT, Vienna was just a way of Mehmed insuring his Empire actually could stay in power in Europe.
Yes occaisonally, like many nations of the era, European ones can hardly be excused; the Ottoman Empire's human rights record was quite abismal, even for the standards of the time, and usually to non-Muslims. Jannisarries while being a highly professional force did pillage and loot as means of paying for their own services, but this was MORE OFTEN than not comitted by the irregular Forces of the Ottoman army. The Jannisarries were a far more disciplined force than this sentence makes them out to be.
By the time it arrived, the Turkish army was more formidable on paper than in reality.
Again, really understating the still very potent Ottoman force, and speculating on the strength of it with no evidence really. More formidable on paper than reality? What on Earth does that imply? Such unsourced crap should be removed promptly.
The results were predictably negligible
Predictably? Since when are 300 Cannons bombarding a City predictably going to have little effect? 62 Cannons demolished Constaninoples defenses in 2 months, if it weren't for the weakened state of the Ottoman Force in Vienna, the the Viennese determined effort to counter their attacks, and terrible conditions, it could have been a bad end for the famed Capitol. Predictably neligible is understating it a bit too much. Unless the writer was a 16th Century Siege Technician who had his fair share of epic battles, get rid of this crap.
Janissaries immediately stormed the breach but were met by twelve-foot pikes and halberds, repulsing them with heavy losses.
Again, one of the many lines that state in effect, "so and so was greeted in the such a violent manner, and they suffered terribly and those awful Muslims were kicked out on their asses by the great Europeans...". Far too much "Impossible-to-verify-detail", I mean, 12ft Pikes and Halberds, knowing the time they attack, it's really hard to say these things unless you were there. Instead of going into petty unverified details, such lines should just simply state "the Ottomans QUICKLY launched a SMALL invading force, but however they were repulsed SHORTLY by PIKEMEN/HALBERDIERS before any impact was made. They suffered greater losses than the Austrians"... or so on. Something not too general but also not too specific to the point where it reads as if it was written by an Austrian Boy watching from the rooftop of his house.
bringing them down and opening it to assault; but the advance was held back by Spanish harquebusiers
Impossible to know what divisons and units exactly held back which attack and so on. Should be verified or removed, simply changed to the 'held back by the combined European Mercenary armies...' would be fine. There's really no need to state what men or exactly what types of mercenaries held back the attack.
the Turks broke through the breaches with screaming battle cries, only to be faced again with palisades and long pikes.
Screaming battle cries and being faced with long pikes? Come on, now it's just getting sick and sadistic as if this were story in which the evil protagonists are being slayed to the audience's delight. Hell why not cut out all the stops "the barbaric Muslim Horde ran blindly into the sharpened stakes of the Viennese Resistance, screaming out in terrible pain as the fanatics slowly died..." too much it just reads as if it's written by an Austrian bystander. It's sick, stupid and POV. Screaming battle cries??? I'm sorry, was the author a former Janissary in a past life by any chance?
3. MILITARY FACTS AND FIGURES MUST BE VERIFIED or not included. The Ottoman Army drops in size in about 2 months to 80,000 or so from a grand strength of 325,000? I don't think the heavy rainy season in Europe killed a good 250,000 men with colds, and damaged most of their artilley. These figures need to be verified they sound far too extact, and more like rough, educated guesses at what was happening to the Ottoman army.
The table's figures are now where near the purported claims of 325,000, 90,000 Camels and so on. This needs to be rectified.
Also stating 20,000 to 25,000 Ottoman casualites and then saying the number of Austrian Casualties is unknown is a load of POV crap, again undercutting the Ottoman impact and damage, while praising the Austrians for their successful defence. While your making educated guesses you might as well rougly estimate the Austrians lost about much the same, maybe a little less in the military strength, with double if not triple civilian casualties who participated fanatically and were fighting to the death. I'd personally put in for the Austrians around 40,000 for now until it's verified, seems close to double the Ottomans figures, as usually the besieged city suffers enormous civilian casualties, especially post-war due to lack of food, disease, etc...
211.27.205.70 18:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. This article reads like an exaggerated account of the actual battle, and many of the results are biased against the Ottomans, or read like a bad movie. Perhaps get rid of the entire description of the battle and merely state the fact that the Ottomans were turned back and the Viennese defenders were spared... either way, this needs changing. Bronzey 07:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My god is this POV or what.... 

message: apparently siege of 1683 was a greater failure for Ottomans than siege of 1529. it ended with Treaty of Karlowitz which was marked the first clear 'defeat' of Ottomans. Whereas siege of 1529 has no significant result. Ati7 12:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ottoman Threat

message: Intelligence reached the defenders that the real purpose of the bombardment was to mask tunnelling efforts beneath the city.  The Carinthian Gate, one of the city's four entrances, was the apparent target of this new assault, the intent being to blow up the towers and then attack with assault troops.  Salm, an expert in tunnelling, quickly took ingenious steps against the efforts, including placing buckets of water and dried peas on drums near the cellar walls of homes adjacent to the gate: when they shook, an alarm was sounded and counter-miners would commence digging "like moles".  What they discovered were six different tunnels advancing through the earth towards the helpless bastions.
The Austrians dug until they struck the enemy tunnels, some of which they found deserted but with powder kegs ready to be lit, and some which were still occupied by miners and immediately became the site of unconventional combat.  Guns were unusable due to the proximity of the kegs, so the men fought hand-to-hand with whatever weapons or tools they could  muster, many dying, in the words of one witness, like "devils from the nether pit of hell". As the battle continued and the fighting below ground grew even more fierce, new weapons were devised for the underground war, including Turkish cavalry maces and Austrian sharpened spades.  At one point, a powderkeg exploded prematurely, killing dozens on both sides.  The total death toll from the underground fighting is unclear, but it gave rise to the term that would come to define the battle: the Siege of the Moles.
The majority of the mines had been discovered before any damage could be done, but constant digging exhausted Viennese capabilities and on 5 October two mines exploded beneath the Salt Gate, leaving room enough for a company of soldiers to break through.  Janissaries immediately stormed the breach but were met by twelve-foot pikes and halberds, repulsing them with heavy losses.  Within hours the breaches were refilled.  
The next night, the Austrians replied with a new form of deadly assault.  Dozens or possibly hundreds of men wearing black cloaks and armed with homemade bombs, possibly one of the first appearances of the Molotov cocktail, exited the city in silence and strode into the Ottoman camps, tossing their bombs into tents before making their escape.  As many as 2,000 Turks died unaware, while sleeping. The fighting continued unabated.  Some days later a mine finally exploded under the two towers of the Carinthian Gate, bringing them down and opening it to assault; but the advance was held back by Spanish harquebusiers, German pikemen and Bohemian two-handed swordsmen who killed 1200 Janissaries before the Janissaries retreated from the breach.
qp10qp 21:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Moles 

message: On October 11 more rain fell and thousands more camels died, while the Viennese began mounting cannons on rooftops, including the so-called "royals", with a greater range than any Turkish gun, that raked the Ottoman camps with nonstop fire....  
...On October 14, the attack began, with serasker Ibrahim leading the charge personally.  The assualts were aimed at the ruined Carinthian Gate and the bastion at the citadel or burg. The attack was led by bashi-bazouks, militia intending to overwhelm the Austrians with sheer numbers, followed by the janissaries, who for the first time were offered the incentive of a bounty of silver.  Suleiman ordered that regardless of losses the attack be launched three times: he would either win or suffer dearly in the attempt.
After one mine had been exploded and another had failed, the Turks broke through the breaches with screaming battle cries, only to be faced again with palisades and long pikes. The bashi-bazouks charged twice and fell back twice as they were cut down repeatedly by pike and musket. Next came the Ottoman janissaries struck with murderous fervor who were also beaten back under a hail of grenades and grapeshot fired from the cannons sited within the Burg, leaving behind piles of their dead and wounded. Fearing Austrian collapse, Salm descended from St. Stephen's to assume personal command of the battle, he was hit almost immediately and fatally wounded.
Finally, without being ordered, the janissaries fell back, despite Ibrahim's efforts to whip them into another charge. They swarmed back to the camps, unpursued, and struck their tents.  The siege was over.
qp10qp 17:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Endgame 

message: Two last cuts. Once again, I'm not saying these aren't true but that I can't source them (except from palpably unreliable books, like Pratt's Battles that Changed History, which treats history as if it is fiction).
In order to preserve what food the city had stored in the event of siege, the Austrians expelled 4,000 women, children, and elderly men out of the city in an escorted column. Unfortunately the column was intercepted by Ottoman forces and attacked at Traismauer. The Austrians later reported that some of the victims were impaled on stakes, whilst some young women were sold as slaves.
The Ottoman archers fared little better, causing a mild annoyance to the sheltering garrison, indeed it is reported that as balls crashed into the roof of St. Stephen's, Salm calmly remarked: "These pebbles are like the little pills my medico bids me swallow."
Reported by who? Without that information, the quote is less than worthless.
qp10qp 21:47, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Final cuts

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thread_title: File:Hungary 1550.png Nominated for Deletion

message: The introduction refers to the "15-year Battle of Vienna." This must be a typo; the battle took place over two days (11-12 September). Perhaps the original author meant to say "weeks," in reference to the siege that preceded the battle at which the city was relieved, but even then, it would have been less than two months (from July 14). Does anyone know what this could be referring to? Otherwise, I would delete the "15-year".
Cdecoro (talk) 15:00, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: 15-year-long Battle of Vienna?

message: The numbers in the infobox are extremely odd. It gives 53,000 defenders though the reference actually says that they were between 17,000 and 20,000. And 60,000 ottomans even though the reference says that they were 120,000 (numbers are usually very unreliable for ottoman armies. They are often very exagerrated). The casualty numbers do not look very reliable either. From other sources, i've seen 25,000 casualties for the Turks. To be honest, since we don't even really know the number of soldiers involved, I don't suppose we have the casualties, so to me, it would be sounder to say that their number was not known.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.181.126.68 (talk) 00:48, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Weird numbers