Talk:Hadith

message: I have added a citation template as I have not been able to find references. If no references can be found, I will move to delete the entire last paragraph. Even if sourced, I would still delete as it is not in line with WP:NPOV (specially WP:UNDUE) and WP:FRINGE, unless an editor disagrees. All interested editors are invited to discuss the merits of leaving the paragraph vs removal. Mbcap (talk) 05:07, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead last paragraph containing fringe information & undue weight 

message: look it up, speaks volumes about veracity  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.190.34.142 (talk) 03:20, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guess they never heard of the telephone game 

message: Here is a copy of the paragraph from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith
Each hadith consists of two parts, the isnad (Arabic: 'support'), or the chain of transmitters through which a scholar traced the matn, or text, of a hadith back to the Prophet.[6][7][8] Individual hadith are classified by Muslim clerics and jurists as sahih ("authentic"), hasan ("good") or da'if ("weak").[9] However, there is no overall agreement: different groups and different individual scholars may classify a hadith differently. Now all of you, convert to Islam.. jkjk do what you want, you're going to hell anyways - a proud Christian!
Although I am not a Muslim. I considered the last sentence offensive against Muslim and should not be tolerated.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.88.249.59 (talk) 01:15, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: bots must have missed it. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:50, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  I can't believe these sentence appears in Wikipedia's article   

message: Made a large edit here which Tokenzero noted had a number of   problems. Amongst other things, I had tried to use the arabic plural form of hadith -- namely ahadith. At his suggestion I'm reverting my changes and will follow the   MOS:ISLAM practice of using the singular form for plural as well, so I propose everybody use "hadith" --  not "hadiths" or "ahadith" -- as the plural of "hadith" in this article. ... in case anyone cares. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:57, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  plural form of hadith 

message: can you give more explanation on why you deleted so much information here? 
such as: 
===Hadith and Quran===
====Importance of hadith complementing the Quran====
The theological importance of hadith comes from several verses in the Quran such as:
Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (the Prophet) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah’s Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger’s duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way. (An-Nur 24:54) 
	
In God's messenger you have indeed a good example for everyone who looks forward with hope to God and the Last Day, and remembers God unceasingly. (Al-Ahzab 33:21)
I haven't reverted your edits but they seem highly problematic.  ---BoogaLouie (talk) 22:53, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Since something is important or not, is a subjective value judgment and the base for the claims are usually bloggs, therefore I removed them. It looked more like a forum, there people discussed their opinnion why  their statement is true. Much of them was OR, for example, the quote "Follow the messenger". Quranites would (and do) counter what it simply means following the Quran, when the so called "Hadithists" (does this term even exists?) state, it means following the examples provided in hadiths. I am no objecting the importance of hadith to understand the Quran, but it should be based on research not on arguements Muslims came up recently to undermine or support a movement. I want to emphazise I am not objecting the claim that hadiths are important. Whether or not is not up to us (and I personally do not even care, since everybody should do as they think it is right), but simply quoting verses, interpretating them for one's own purpose and adding a judgment made by a webpage (I know they are popular among many Muslims today. Even on Wikipedia, I get frequently recommandtions to watch Youtube-Shaikh X for a "better understanding" when I make an unpopular edit). This is simply too close to OR. And I remember I did not removed all claims and arguements only whose really bad backuped, by extensive Quranquotes and when the text was going to write about "hadithists", which is simply polarizing. Regarding the Quran-Quotes, I want to add, a Quarnite could counter by ferring to Quran-Quotes when Israelis are critizised by God to follow their Trabbis more than revealed scripture and simply add a blog authored by a self-claimed Shaikh. It would end up in a forum-like arguementation, and we do not argue in an encycopedia just povides arguements made, usually with reference to a secondary source (any reseacher who analyzed the arguements, but is not involed in the discussion theirselves), so even the authors of Wikipedia are as unbiased as possible.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 23:24, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

text: Sure, you are free to edit, and I hope you do better than me. Improving is great, but IslamQA is unauthentic, since it is biased. It is like citing JehovaWitnesses for a Catholicism. Edit: I want to emphazise, my personall view about IslamQA does not matter. I even use it myself, if there is no longer source available. The problem is simply, it is no professionel research, but biased by their own religious point of view.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 18:59, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits of why hadith are important

message: ====Importance of hadith complementing the Quran====
The theological importance of hadith comes from several verses in the Quran such as:
Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (the Prophet) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah’s Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger’s duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way. (An-Nur 24:54) 
	
In God's messenger you have indeed a good example for everyone who looks forward with hope to God and the Last Day, and remembers God unceasingly. (Al-Ahzab 33:21)
I haven't reverted your edits but they seem highly problematic.  ---BoogaLouie (talk) 22:53, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Since something is important or not, is a subjective value judgment and the base for the claims are usually bloggs, therefore I removed them. It looked more like a forum, there people discussed their opinnion why  their statement is true. Much of them was OR, for example, the quote "Follow the messenger". Quranites would (and do) counter what it simply means following the Quran, when the so called "Hadithists" (does this term even exists?) state, it means following the examples provided in hadiths. I am no objecting the importance of hadith to understand the Quran, but it should be based on research not on arguements Muslims came up recently to undermine or support a movement. I want to emphazise I am not objecting the claim that hadiths are important. Whether or not is not up to us (and I personally do not even care, since everybody should do as they think it is right), but simply quoting verses, interpretating them for one's own purpose and adding a judgment made by a webpage (I know they are popular among many Muslims today. Even on Wikipedia, I get frequently recommandtions to watch Youtube-Shaikh X for a "better understanding" when I make an unpopular edit). This is simply too close to OR. And I remember I did not removed all claims and arguements only whose really bad backuped, by extensive Quranquotes and when the text was going to write about "hadithists", which is simply polarizing. Regarding the Quran-Quotes, I want to add, a Quarnite could counter by ferring to Quran-Quotes when Israelis are critizised by God to follow their Trabbis more than revealed scripture and simply add a blog authored by a self-claimed Shaikh. It would end up in a forum-like arguementation, and we do not argue in an encycopedia just povides arguements made, usually with reference to a secondary source (any reseacher who analyzed the arguements, but is not involed in the discussion theirselves), so even the authors of Wikipedia are as unbiased as possible.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 23:24, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Hadith and Quran

message: The theological importance of hadith comes from several verses in the Quran such as:
Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (the Prophet) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah’s Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger’s duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way. (An-Nur 24:54) 
	
In God's messenger you have indeed a good example for everyone who looks forward with hope to God and the Last Day, and remembers God unceasingly. (Al-Ahzab 33:21)
I haven't reverted your edits but they seem highly problematic.  ---BoogaLouie (talk) 22:53, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Since something is important or not, is a subjective value judgment and the base for the claims are usually bloggs, therefore I removed them. It looked more like a forum, there people discussed their opinnion why  their statement is true. Much of them was OR, for example, the quote "Follow the messenger". Quranites would (and do) counter what it simply means following the Quran, when the so called "Hadithists" (does this term even exists?) state, it means following the examples provided in hadiths. I am no objecting the importance of hadith to understand the Quran, but it should be based on research not on arguements Muslims came up recently to undermine or support a movement. I want to emphazise I am not objecting the claim that hadiths are important. Whether or not is not up to us (and I personally do not even care, since everybody should do as they think it is right), but simply quoting verses, interpretating them for one's own purpose and adding a judgment made by a webpage (I know they are popular among many Muslims today. Even on Wikipedia, I get frequently recommandtions to watch Youtube-Shaikh X for a "better understanding" when I make an unpopular edit). This is simply too close to OR. And I remember I did not removed all claims and arguements only whose really bad backuped, by extensive Quranquotes and when the text was going to write about "hadithists", which is simply polarizing. Regarding the Quran-Quotes, I want to add, a Quarnite could counter by ferring to Quran-Quotes when Israelis are critizised by God to follow their Trabbis more than revealed scripture and simply add a blog authored by a self-claimed Shaikh. It would end up in a forum-like arguementation, and we do not argue in an encycopedia just povides arguements made, usually with reference to a secondary source (any reseacher who analyzed the arguements, but is not involed in the discussion theirselves), so even the authors of Wikipedia are as unbiased as possible.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 23:24, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Importance of hadith complementing the Quran

message: The theological importance of hadith comes from several verses in the Quran such as (The claim is not back up by any source, it is only concluded from the following statements within the section):
Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (the Prophet) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah’s Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger’s duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way. (An-Nur 24:54) !(a webpage about introduction to Islam, without any research or academic viewpoint)!  
In God's messenger you have indeed a good example for everyone who looks forward with hope to God and the Last Day, and remembers God unceasingly. (Al-Ahzab 33:21)
Yes, the entire section was build upon this. Next one:
"derived solely from the hadith" (I changed to "reported in hadiths" since not all practises are on hadiths alone, there are even other sources apart from the Quran which simply derived over time as folkloric pracitises or they derived from exegesis of the Quran n combination with the hadith. Regarding the source given, I could not find the reference, but probably because the page number is not shown at GoogleBooks (have not found it in my libary). The most close I found was "As Nawawi explains, when the ulama have arrived at certainty about a stance derived from the Qur'an and Sunna as a whole, all individual Qur'anic verses and Hadiths must be interpreted to accord with it." Not sure if this cites the statement above, but I think it does not matter, since it is evident from that follows and that is self-evident. This is also the reason I did not removed it and would not eve remove, if the source actually makes no explicit statement. But I thought it should be rewritten (the "solely")).
Here we have the next:
" Almost all Muslims, therefore, can be called Hadithists (i.e. believers in hadith), and  maintain that the hadith" (as stated in the edit-summary, the term "hadithiss" seems to be invented. Never encoutnered any scholar who refered to non-Quranites as "hadithists". The term simply does not exists (there is also no source given, which could have introduced the term).)
"Quranists, on the contrary, hold that if the Quran is silent on some matter, it is  because Allah did not hold its detail to be of consequence; and that some hadith contradict the Quran, evidence that some hadith are a source of corruption and not a complement to the Quran." (This is a statement about the belief of a specific group, what should have been sourced. Also, it implies about the Quran, it is silent about something, a point Quranites would disagree entirely, since they hold the Quran does not need explanation but is complete already. For example the prayers, usually regarded by opponents of Quranism, as relying on the hadith, Quranits use Quran-verses only to perform prayer. This debate was also written below. But since this implies as dispute, not supported by any reliable source, I removed it. It leads to an ongoing discussion Quranites and non-Quranites have and we are not a forum for discussion, we add discussions, when we have unbiased sources for them and not write that either we think or we think others might think. It is not a blog, neither is it an essay.)
"A classical example is salat (the five daily prayers of Islam), which is commanded in the Quran, and considered by all Muslims to be an obligatory part of Islamic religious practice, one of the five pillars of Islam." (More Essay-Style, when referring to an exmaple provided by the author of the article, tells about a dispute. Since the dispute is well known, I shortened it to " An example are the obligatory prayers, which are commanded in the Quran, but explained in hadith." and added it to the section above, but the conclusion made up by the author of the article (still the author of the article, not a source!) was removed by me, that is the " demonstrating to Hadithists  that hadith "validly" fulfill the Quranic command of ritual prayer"-part."
Although I think the following part " However, hadith differ on these details and consequently salat is performed differently by different hadithist Islamic sects. " is still unencessary, I kept it, since I think it does not violent any WikiPedia Guidelines, nor that it is biased. But the removed content (or in another case adjusted content), was rather like an Essay, providing two points of arguements with a final conclusion, based on the opinnion of the former author, only supported by Webpages, which only confirmed one side of the arguement."
Just to sum it up. My objection was not solely based on the sources used as explained above.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 19:33, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Importance of hadith complementing the Quran

message: I put it to you  that if the term "Hadithist" is difficult to find it is because so few Muslims are anything but, that the term is seldom used. I submit this also explains the lack of scholarly discussion on whether hadith/sunna are true Islam. There is so little disagreement. I have included IslamQA as a citation. You may not like IslamQA but you can't accuse it of lacking scholarly support. 
I'd like to do a better job of editting the article but I am short on time.--BoogaLouie (talk) 00:56, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, you are free to edit, and I hope you do better than me. Improving is great, but IslamQA is unauthentic, since it is biased. It is like citing JehovaWitnesses for a Catholicism. Edit: I want to emphazise, my personall view about IslamQA does not matter. I even use it myself, if there is no longer source available. The problem is simply, it is no professionel research, but biased by their own religious point of view.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 18:59, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: replies

message: Hi, I don't know how relevant this is to this page, but I found a Prayer book from the 1800s on archive.org. One of the authors is described as "Hadith" but I assume that means that the contents are part of the tradition of what Muhammad said as described on this page. I was thinking of making a link to the book from the external links section, but I'm guess there are many, many examples of such books. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 21:01, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Where does it say that? I leafed through the book and nothing was in a language I could understand except for the library sticker in the front. If the book reproduces selected Hadith as prayers, then yes it could be linked. It's hard to tell the context just by looking at it though. ~Anachronist (talk) 01:08, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Under authors, it lists "Ahadith," which I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, was another way of writing "hadith." It seems more likely that it is part of the author's name. The description on the page says "A work containing several prayers, especially prescribed by the Prophet Muhammad, the leading Fakih and Imams." Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 16:26, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  online prayer book from the 1800s