Talk:Free software/Archive 2

message: This whole article is wrong. "Free Software" as it is commonly known is not defined as narrowly as this article suggests. In fact, this article belongs under "Free Software Foundation" not the generic term of "free software". I'll wait for feedback before recommending major and dramatic changes.
:I agree 100%. This whole article should be rewritten with a caveat at the top that distinguishes "Free Software" from Open Source or FSF. The world does not exist in the cubicle of linux developers and "Free Software" is not commonly understood in these terms.
:Hello. I disagree 100%. Free software, not only as I understand, but also as it's used in the newspapers, means exactly "free software as defined by FSF". The open source definition either doesn't mix with the free software or is mixed with it by assuming free software and open source are all open source (and not free software). The meaning of freeware never mixes with free software at all. --Hdante 19:58, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I also disagree. "Free software", as a technical term worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia, really has only one definition: the FSF's definition. I think the status quo, where Free software refers to the FSF's definition, and Free software (disambiguation) refers to everything else, is fine. --Wonderstruck 00:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: This article is completely inaccurate - needs major revisions

message: No offense, but I think the article is quite hard to read/understand for a person not familiar with the topic. It does not have a clear/logical flow and the headings do not fit the text underneath in many cases. I am not sure right now, what should be done. To be constructive let me start with the overall structure. I think something like that would make sense:
# History
## A time before software license agreements -> the 60s/70s stuff
## Avoiding license agreements iwht free software -> RMS, FSF, etc.
# Political Aspects/Relevance
## Free Software vs. Open Source Software -> the comparison text
## Free Software as a public good -> because THIS is the political relevance
# Examples -> like now but shorter
And yes, I agree that the Security section does not fit and rather belongs to "Security by obscurity". So, what do you think? Madmaxx 23:41, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. On a related note, the history section is very, very weak. I don't know enough about the history to rewrite it, but I do know that the actions of Richard Stallman which led to the founding of the FSF are classically controversial, but only the peripheral, poor example of the printer driver is mentioned. Who cares about the printer driver? Where is the mention of his unilateralism?149.169.20.229 05:16, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The article is quite messy

message: Look at Extreem, FSF, Pragmatic, ... and anti views of free software. 
Pragmatic to include: Practical benefits that the freedom of free software give. Look at vendor lockin, and vendor lockout. (ill try to put somethink in, in the coming weeks.)
: Agree. Software being 'free' is independent of the practicality/functionality of a certain program. Actually, A program can be useless but still be free -- or very sophisticated and non-free. So, mixing the practical argumentation with the political/societal one would be misleading. Hm, we should have a place (separate article?) to compare the practical benefits of software whose source is available and closed source software... Madmaxx 22:54, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Extreem and pragmatic views of free software

message: The notion of OSD not allowing copying sounds like a red herring to me. I can't fathom how the DFSG (from which the OSD originated) could be construed to include redistribution and exclude copying. --Shallot 12:42, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks ridiculous from here and smells of original research and editorialising. This is the very first place I've heard this contention, in several years of reading FS/OS advocates' ranting. Further, if it were a real problem, I'd be very surprised at the FSF never having mentioned it. I believe this is what judges call "a novel argument." I've commented it out and eagerly await any reasonable justification and preferably a cite or several here on this talk page - David Gerard 09:54, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: OSD not allowing copying?

message: The following text from Wikipedia:Votes for deletion relates to a former article which was converted to a redirect to this article before being deleted by me after a rough consensus was reached on Vfd. It is included here for the benefit of anyone wondering about the recent edits to this article. -- Oliver P. 04:36, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  The mode of production of free software 

message: Generally, the "libre" definition for "free" has higher priority than the "gratis" definition for "free". Therefore, shouldn't the "libre" definition for "free software" be the primary one, and the "gratis" definition for "free software" be the secondary one? Are there any objections to swapping the order of the two?
:I think this is a correct observation; the article should be changed accordingly. --snoyes 15:56, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: IMHO, the gratis software should get its own article, since it is an entirely different thing. It is just sometimes called by the same name -- Sloyment 03:46, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

text: Moreover, you don't say "software gratis" in Spanish, but rather "software gratuito". "Gratis" is and adverb, and "gratuito" an adjective. In English "free" stands for both. Interestingly, for "libre" it's the other way around: "libre" is an adjective (free), and "libremente" an adverb (freely). So funnily enough, gratis and libre can not be confronted, but rather gratis/libremente or gratuito/libre. However this is a bit too much nit-picking, because the use of adjectives and adverbs is so messed up already among the general public (in Spain, and I guess in most countries). Isilanes 13:17, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: libre/gratis/free

message: Are the terms "gratis software" and "libre software" coming from some source that somebody could cite? Because in spanish and other languages which use those words, that's said wrong; you'd say "software gratis" and "software libre". A minor nitpick if you will, but I'm just curious because every single article in Wikipedia that mentions it writes it like that.
Here's some example references:
* http://www.upgrade-cepis.org/issues/2005/3/upgrade-vol-VI-3.html
* http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/bpl.html
* http://lsm2002.abul.org/program/topic17/
Actually, there's more at alternative terms for free software.
I think what's happening is that Anglo-speakers want to adopt the "liberty"-rich word "libre" but still preserve the english language usage to put the adjective at the beginning of the phrase. --71.161.214.135 01:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Moreover, you don't say "software gratis" in Spanish, but rather "software gratuito". "Gratis" is and adverb, and "gratuito" an adjective. In English "free" stands for both. Interestingly, for "libre" it's the other way around: "libre" is an adjective (free), and "libremente" an adverb (freely). So funnily enough, gratis and libre can not be confronted, but rather gratis/libremente or gratuito/libre. However this is a bit too much nit-picking, because the use of adjectives and adverbs is so messed up already among the general public (in Spain, and I guess in most countries). Isilanes 13:17, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "libre software"?

message: "The freedom definition of "free software" has been championed by the Free Software Foundation (FSF), founded by Richard Stallman, who codified his philosophy of software freedom in the 1980s."
: What does "codified mean"? ;-) —Noldoaran (Talk) 05:01, Feb 18, 2004 (UTC)
::Put in the 'coda' (book), or 'set to paper'. Jor 22:24, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Codified

message: "Once a free software product has started to circulate, it soon becomes available at little or no cost. At the same time, its utility does not decrease. This means that free software can be characterized as more like a culture good than a commodity."
The term most commonly used for such a good is a 'pure public good'. A pure public good is a good that is nonrival (my use of the good does not prevent you from using the good) and nonexclusive (It is difficult / impossible for someone to restrict a person's use of the good). --ShaunMacPherson 06:45, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Pure public good

message: User from 4.5.64.250 wrote: Debian has always advocated freedom of all digital information, not just recently. When the DFSG was first written, it was intended to apply to everything Debian would distribute, not just programs.
: Just for the record, that is completely irrelevant for the encyclopedia, which doesn't record wishful thinking but facts. In the 1990s, the DFSG was only being applied to software, and that meant programs with source code. Then, a few years ago, the LDP documents and the RFCs were mass-checked for compliance by the maintainers, which marked the beginning of the period when the docs became subject to it. Right now it's still not being applied to all digital information, and even if the current purge of firmwares, fonts etc would be completed one day, such a statement would still be an overgeneralization because it can't be applied to the license texts. --Shallot 16:51, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: How's the present version? I've commented out the "some people" bit on the grounds that it's not really significant in the present state of things - David Gerard 17:08, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, it's not really that insignificant because it does mark a trend. It should just be made clear what's wishful thinking and what are the facts. --Shallot 17:41, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: Documentation and other data has always been subject to the DFSG. In this debian-legal message, Bruce Perens, the author of the DFSG, stated "I intended for the entire contents of that CD to be under the rights stated in the DSFG - be they software, documentation, or data.". The only thing that has changed in recent years is the diligence used when examining packages in Debian. --4.5.64.250 03:45, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, I know exactly what Bruce said, but that really doesn't mean all that much given that most of e.g. LDP docs were blatantly non-free even when he was the project leader. A half-hearted intent is not particularly relevant for this encyclopedia entry. --Shallot 09:34, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, edit for accuracy at will, unless you feel you're close enough to it that you shouldn't :-) - David Gerard 10:52, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: Like I said, the only thing that changed was the diligence used in auditing packages and applying the DFSG. Considering that the project just agreed by more than 4:1 that they really do want the DFSG applied to everything, I think it is reasonable to state that as the majority opinion of the Debian project. There are certainly dissenting opinions, but they are in the minority. --4.5.64.250 00:00, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have explained several times in the discussions about this that the project did not agree to such a thing any more after the vote than it did before the vote, and to my knowledge there hasn't been a single reply contradicting that, only the different interpretations, of which the one by the release manager had the greatest weight when it comes to the release process. In any event, I don't think that Wikipedia has any reason to bother with the whole semantic-syntactic debate of what the opinion of Debian is, simply stating the facts will suffice. --Shallot 00:39, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: DFSG and !software

message: The whole point of wikipedia is to make knowledge as free (as in free speech) as possible. But a lot of knowledge is represented using formulae and also using computer software. Surely it would be consistent with the spirit of wikipedia to put a priority on helping someone who reads e.g. computer algebra system an easy way of picking up which are the free systems, without having to click through a dozen links - especially given that someone might want to pick up free software packages from a dozen or so different wikipedia pages. It's practical to browse through, e.g. 12 pages, but browsing through 144 pages is getting beyond what's practical. And the battle between free knowledge/software and closed knowledge/software often comes up against the practicality argument - i'm getting a bit tired of hearing But linux is too difficult or But i want to use this package and it doesn't exist in linux, but making it easier to find free software is surely a good idea. OK, enough ranting ;).
i'll try out something on computer algebra system with a template - i suggest this discussion page (Talk:Free software) as the place to discuss this further . Anyway, let's try something... Boud 12:36, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  How should we label free software links on wikipedia articles? 

message: I don't like the Security section. I removed it once, but it was added again. The bottom paragraph is basically a "look, these free software packages rule!! M$ sux!!" kinda thing. fataltourist 23:09, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the paragraph in question. --minghong 18:10, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Security section