Talk:Balachka

message: Just to let you know Bandurist, I am preparing a major re-write of this article based on material that's taken from literature and linguistic sources (not forums and hand-drawn maps). Including those published by VIKTOR ZAKHARCHENKO himself!, so this OR version, if you insist on keeping it as temporarily then so be it, I have better time to spend than revert war. --Kuban Cossack 17:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Re-write

message: Came across this is interesting bit of Balachka:
Чув, що під час останнього перепису населення Росії, Кубанці відмовлялися себе називати як росіянами так і українцями, називаючи свою національність "Козаки". В підтвердженні цього згадується роман "Тихий Дон", коли на слова більшовицького агітатора "Я такий же росіянин як і ти", донський козак гнівно відповідає "Бреше" Козаки від козаків пішли!". Наскільки моя інформація відносно переписи на Кубані відповідає дійсності? [quote]
Так, дійсно і кубаннці і терці і донці і інші козаки і казаки в Росії більше звуться казакми/козаками показуя що це національна назва. І я теж колись так називав себе і я теж колись відмовлявся називатися не тільки росіянином (а точніше русскім), а і українцем. Просто ми думаємо що назва українець це не національність, а громадянство і місце проживання. І якщо наші предкі жили в Україні, те вони й були українцями, а зараз ось ми вже живемо ни в Україні, те й ми вже і не українці, а наприклад кубанці чи терці! А в загалі ми мов козаки. Ну і що що гутаримо по українськи? Ну і що що в нас українськи прізвіща, байдуже ми не українці, а козаки ми! А те що наші предки колись були українськими козакми, те ось ми вже стали кавказькими козаками! Потім я впізнав, що украінці розмовляють такою же мовою як і ми, тільки називая її українською мовою, а не козацькою (кубанською) балочкою, як ми. Коли я був у арміі я чув як українці розмовляють і я їх розумів і я з ними спілкувався. І тут я задумався: у нас одна мова, одне обличчя (од кацапив ми все ж таки одрізняємося), значить і одна кров!!! Про це я потім спитав у моїх родичів, а вони сказали, що ми же не в Україні живемо, а на Кавказі, значить ми не українці. я ось тут і задумався серьйозно, хто ми?????!!
Звичайно я згоден, що "козаки од козаків ведуться", але й гуцули теж од гуцулів, і лемкі од лемків, і бойки од бойків і так далі. І тут я зрозумив, що всеж таки в нас одна мова (хоча і різні діалекти) і одне обличчя і одна кров і значить повинна бути і одна назва. Коли я їздив по Росії, всі мене називали українцем, із за мого наголоса і прізвіща.
link title
What do you this Kubam?  Bandurist 01:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Source: Viktor Zakharchenko's article . Talk about source, why did you create a fork at Cossack Ukrainian? --Kuban Cossack 18:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Interesting stuff

message: Let's set aside the political implication of the categorization of the dialect.  First of all, balachka cannot be a "Cossack dialect" as stated in the first sentence of the article.  Cossack is not a language so it has no dialects.  It can be a dialect of X language that is spoken by Cossacks.  Now, which dialect is it a language of?  Sorry Kuban Kazak, but the evidence points to Ukrainian.  The word itself is a Ukrainian word, a completely Ukrainian one for speech (there are for example, Ukrainian-language forums with no connection to Kuban that are called balakachka:   The tsarist census listed it under Little Russian (Ukrainian), rather than under Russian.  It is listed as a Ukrainian dialect here: .  Posting by Bandurist of actual balachka shows its obvious Ukrainian nature (why was the comparison of balachka to standard Ukrainian text removed from this article? It was an interesting bit of information worthy of inclusion).  This was by the way also observed by Isaac Babel.  And here is from Isaac Babel's diary, August 10 and 11, 1920:
:Night - an unusual night, the high road is brilliantly lit, my room is bright, I'm working...the Kuban cossacks are singing with feeling, their fin figures by the campfire, the songs are totally Ukrainian...
:Toward evening, rain.  Kuban Cossacks are staying the night in my room, strange: peaceful and warlike, domestic, and peasants of obvious Ukrainian origin, not all that young.
:About the Kuban cossacks.  Camaraderie, they always stick together...at night Kuban cossacks come to visit.  Ceaseless rain, they dry themselves and eat their supper in my room...they are decent, friendly, wild, but somehow more sympathetic, domestic, less foulmouthed, more calm than the Cossacks from Stavropol and the Don.
The fact that balachka differed from standard Ukrainian by the 1850's does not change this fact.  All dialects differ from the standard language - that is why they are dialects.   Please, let us not politicize this article or any other relating to Kuban.  Referring to balachka correctly as a separate dialect of the Ukrainian language does not imply Ukrainian pretensions on territory of the Russian Federation.  As for the map - it appears in the Encyclopedia of Ukraine.  I see no reason for its exclusion because it is "hand-drawn."Faustian 20:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I never said that it was not a dialect of Ukrainian, I said that it is a hybrid langauge, that is all. Its formation parraleled the formation of the Kuban Cossack sub-ethnical group. Moreover there is not one unified Balachka, at present its a Cossack dialect that is not used uniformly by the Kuban Cossacks themselves. For example whilst an open Krug on the maidan including the whole stanitsa might well be conducted in it, a purely military operation will be discussed in standard Russian. I for example speak balachka only to any old people. When I am in service no way, there is no written rule that prohibits it, just like there is no written rule that prohibits speaking at all, its just a pure custom. I speak to my wife in standard Russian, because I have as much difficulty understanding her Western Ukrainian as she has my Balachka, except when we argue that is, but that's not a problem as profanity in Ukrainian is identical to Russian, and the same goes for Balachka. Actually here is one interesting feature of it. A lot of Cossacks when in public and when pissed off at something will use the -na. to puncutate a sentance. Like На шо ты напутал тут на? Пшел ка отседа на!  You can imagine that after the -na, there should be another word that normally follows. However as Cossacks are forbidden and themselves find it very low to swear in public, especially when on service. So whatever follows -na would not be said. Yet the na itself is not exactly a profanity in any shape and form. Hence, from what I heard, for some children it is the first word they know...--Kuban Cossack 11:41, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fascinating.  The use of "na" was observed by Babel himself, when he described the Kuban Cossacks as less foulmouthed than those from Stavropol and the Don...Faustian 14:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In light of my earlier comments, would it make sense to state something like at the beginning of this article: "Balachka (Russian and Ukrainian: балачка) is the name of several East Slavic dialects that are spoken in the traditional Cossack regions of Russia such as the Kuban, Stavropol and Don areas. They are a hybrid of standard Russian and Ukrainian languages, with Circassian influences.  The balachka of Kuban is generally considered a Ukrainian dialect (under the tsars, the Kuban balachka was offically categorized as "Little Ruissian") while the balachka of the Don and Stavropol regions is considered a Russian dialect."Faustian 16:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

text: The balachka of Kuban is unambiguously labelled as a dialect of Ukrainian/Little Russian.  I am assuming Kuban Kazak can find references to the speech of the Don cossacks as being called "balachka".  If that's the case, then we have several dialects called "balachkas", one of which is a Ukrainian dialect and others being Russian.  You are probably right with respect to Circassian.  Do you have references showing that balachka was originally a denigrative term?  It certinly doesn't sound like one, and Ukrainian-language internet forums refer tothemselves as "balachka": [].  Balachka (from balakaty) seems comparable to "mova" ("rozmovliaty").  bestFaustian 18:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The term comes from the Ukrainian word to Babble ie what old women do. The use of the term for an internet communication is meant to be funny.  When I was in the Kuban in 1991 for a month I toured with concerts in all of the Stanytsias and performed at teh Golden Apple Festival. I have photos of the festival and the posters etc. I was amazed that the bulk of the women all spoke Ukrainian. I made comments regarding the fact that their Ukrainian was so good and basically better than that spoken in Kyiv, In fact I heard more Ukrainian in Kuban than in Kyiv, however, at that time a couple of Russophone men used the word balakat' to denigrade (ie make smaller, to belittle) the language spoken and the mentaslity of the people. To me it was quite disgusting. It was a way of controlling the Ukrainina elemnet in Kuban. You will not find the term in Russian published literature anywhere. It is not an academic term in use anywhere. However there  are people that are pushing it and are using to describe all sorts of things. It is like using the word Nigger. Granteed it means black, and it depends on the context of the use but despite everyone knowing the word no-one uses it opennly. If I use the word Katsap, it can be funny or denigrative acording to the  context. Here, we have a word that was originally used to belittle the use of Ukrainian language, and a person who wnats the term to be excepted . Later he will say "Hey it was the Ukrainians themselves who were denigrating their own language. Look here etc.
I am predicting (because I have not the resources to check) that there are not references to Dpon Balachka before 1991 and this is a term that has only been recently introduced as part of that movement to unite Cosssacks into one entity. In the process the Ukrainia Cossacks will once again be freatend with Russification and a loss of one's own ethnic identity. Bandurist 19:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Interesting observations.  Let's see if we do get references for a Don balachka.  With resepct to the nasty atttiudes towards the Ukrainian-speaking women in Kuban, perhaps the insult was not in the word balachka but in the tone, etc.  Your internet experience seems conspiracy-seeking, but it does fit in with the pattern.  The Russian elite has been extremely concerned about the country breaking apart (my in-laws move in those circles, I've heard a lot of this seming paranoia).  Kuban is potentially critical, due to its proximity to the Caucuses (can you imagine what a pro-Ukrainian Kuban would mean for Russian interests?) and they have been very effective in nipping the problem in the bud, so to speak.  An aggresively Russophile national orientation is thus promoted and alternatives denied.  It seems to have been successful, judging by census declarations and such tungs.  Have you read the article I posted elsewhere?   Fascinating stuff.  Incidentally, a similar phenomenon has occurred in Zakarpatia, where the Rusyns have for the most part become very staunch Ukrainians (although they were likely Ukrainians to begin with).  Ane excellent article on that topic: Faustian 21:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Let's give Kuban Kazak a chance to find some academic references to Don balachka.  If he doesn't after a week or two, we can consider balachka to refer only to the dialect of the Kuban cossacks, and thus as per linguists, a Ukrainian dialect.  If the references are there, but exclusively from the '90's, they are still legitimate but that fact should be noted.best Faustian (talk) 04:10, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds quite fair to me. Bandurist (talk) 14:49, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Balachka - Ukrainian Dialect?

message: Go to 'Dialect map of Russian language' (see 'External Links of Balachka article') - this link is Russian link, so I guess there is no accusation of Ukrainian nationalism:)
On this map, Kuban Balachka area (except upper Kuban - Lineitsy area: Lineitsy are descendants of Don Cossacks) is called 'Dialects created with mutual influance of Ukrainian and Russian language as well as Ukrainian-Russian dialects'.
Furthermore, even though this source is Russian, dialect is called 'Ukrainian-Russian' and NOT 'Russian-Ukrainian', meaning that even Russian source has no way, but to accept that Ukrainian has more influence on lower Kuban Balachka (i.e. without Lineitsy area).
Kuban Cossack, are you living in Lineitsy area?
Anyway your personal experience of Balachka (you say that you speak Russian with some Ukrainian words) is not scientific grounds. Sorry.
Even in Ukraine, due to Russification policies of USSR, we were talking more and more Russian words in our language. I can tell you that even in the westernmost Volyn (near Polish border) many say Russian 'horosho' instead of Ukrainian 'dobre' (I was they last year).
Furthermore from time to time, people in ANY PART OF UKRAINE (incl. Galichina) talk in standard Russian to comers from Russia or cities of Eastern Ukraine. Due to that Ukraine is now standard Russian-speaking area?
To get it more funny, is Turkey a Russian speaking area since many many Turks speak Russian to tourists?
From scientifica POV, lower Kuban area is not area of Russian language even in the am source
(we, in ex-Soviet countries, know very well what is 'Russian source': it's very Russian biased at minimum, usually it is propaganda. If translated from Russian political bias to ethnic issues, 'Ukrainian-Russian dialect' in the Russian source could mean 'Ukrainian dialect' in simple unbiased human language. But I will not base my argument on this suggestion)
So, Kuban Cossack, again please do not mix up your personal experience with science.
Coming to Don Balachka (as well as Lineitsy dialect), on the same Russian map it is classified as Southern dialect of Russian language. And I guess it is where Don Balachka (as well as Lineitsy dialect) actually belongs.
'Dialect map of Ukrainian language' totally agrees with it (Lineitsy area has some small insertions of Ukrainian speaking areas - that's the only difference).
James B. Minahan writes explicitely that only Lineitsy dialect (upper Kuban Basin) 'has absorbed many Circassian words' and again 'descendants of Don Cossacks, Circassians and Russian colonists [concentrated] in the upper and middle..Kuban Basin' (Lineitsy area).
Anyway at the moment scientifically speaking, Don area as well as Lineitsy area (upper Kuban Basin) belong to Russian language area.
So it is not Cossack language or dialect from scientific POV
(Forgive me if I am wrong, Kuban Cossack was suggesting in the article 'Cossacks' to call Cossacks subethnic group, which is funny and ungrounded).
Furthermore, one cannot extrapolate Don or Lineitsy words for the whole Kuban area as Lower Kuban area is very different from them as seen on both maps.
Even though Cossacks consider themselves one entity and speaking one language, they have different languages from scientific POV: lower Kuban area has Ukrainian or (as it called in Russian source) 'Ukrainian-Russian' language, whereas upper Kuban area and Don area has Russian language - even notwistanding that some authors (such as James B. Minahan) were influenced by the Cossacks wrong unscientific feelings and called it Cossack languageKKonstantin (talk) 12:08, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am from Varenikovskaya, which is on the Taman Peninsula, and no I am not a Leniyets, or a Chernomorets or Khoperets, I am a Kubanets, and its the same answer you will hear anywhere in the Kuban irrespective of where you will go. --Kuban Cossack 11:52, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You cannot revert to your version 'It is a hybrid of standard Russian with Ukrainisms'. What is the base for calling it 'standard Russian' or 'Cossack' language? Even Russian map calls it 'Ukrainian-Russian dialects'. IMPORTANT: YOUR DESIRE IS NOT SUFFICIENT BASE. So I suggest to put it somewhat more compromise: 'It is perceived as a separate language by Cossacks and one author.[1] However most scienists consider Balachka to be dialects belonging to Ukrainian or Russian languages.'  NOTE: Ukrainian must be first as it is in the Russain ethnographic map and in all Ukrainian ethno sources. KKonstantin (talk KKonstantin (talk)15:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I have added a number of ethno-linguistic maps to External Links which clearly show that one part of Balachka is considered to be a part of Ukrainian language and the other - part of Russian language by Ukrainian and foregn linguists. KKonstantin (talk) 11:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: My suggestion

message: I took a read through and mainly just improved wording. I did take out one sentence following the comment about Russification regarding formal knowledge of languages. Since the article is about Balachka, general observations about Ukrainian don't necessarily fit. It would be better to have an understanding of the historical use of language, for example, in schools in Cossack regions. If there are circumstances which applied to Ukrainian which were then explicitly also applied to Balachka, they can and should be noted as such (for example, what was happening with Balachka while Ukrainian was banned from the 1860's/70's to 1905 during tsarist rule)? —PētersV (talk) 23:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, the clarification about Little Russia(n) being Ukrainian came from The Roots of Ukrainian Nationalism: Galicia As Ukraine's Piedmont by Magocsi, not borrowing from another Wikipedia article. :-) —PētersV (talk) 04:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyedit

message: Bandurist just because you can appeal to a wide array of users who having no involvement might agree with your edits, its still does not explain that you have simply reverted your old version, including the old spelling mistakes. Now if you want to throw away all the discussion above and continue to degrade into an edit warrior, ignoring any consensus drives, I will file an RfC because I had enough of this. Please stop and discuss issues. --Kuban Cossack 11:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverts again

message: ===1===
2 ^ a b c d Viktor Zakharchenko, Folk songs of the Kuban, 1997 Retrieved 07 November 2007] 
:I didn't find in your link the confirmation of the article's statetment: Already by that point however it was clear that the Kuban Balachka was suffciently different from the standard Ukrainian language. Please, explaine what did you mean under this "suffcient difference"? I wonder what are the criteria of such "suffciency" in the Eastern Slavic languages, especially in Russian and Ukranian that are very close to each other. 
===2===
The article begins "a Cossack dialect that is spoken in the traditional Cossack regions". This wording is very funny. Languages have dilects not social groups, like Cossacks. Fd far as I know Dflfchka is considered to be the dialect of Ukranian or Russian, depending on the tastes of the scholars. It's better to correct the present wording and write about both classifications according to WP standarts.
:You can say a Cossack dilaect, just like you could say an army dialect, but you should add of... . AllenHansen (talk) 14:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Viktor Zakharchenko, Folk songs of the Kuban, 1997 Retrieved 07 November 2007]  

message: The article begins "a Cossack dialect that is spoken in the traditional Cossack regions". This wording is very funny. Languages have dilects not social groups, like Cossacks. Fd far as I know Dflfchka is considered to be the dialect of Ukranian or Russian, depending on the tastes of the scholars. It's better to correct the present wording and write about both classifications according to WP standarts.
:You can say a Cossack dilaect, just like you could say an army dialect, but you should add of... . AllenHansen (talk) 14:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 2

message: I have seen that Kuban Cossack refers to difference between Balachka and literary Ukrainian.
This is not scientific approach to compare vernacular to literary.
If you compare Russian literary to Russian vernacular of siberians or any other different Russian groups, you would find a lot of difference.
Scientific approach is to look at the vernacular continuum of adjacent territories.
If you would compare Ukrainian Surzhyk of Donetsk oblast to Balachka of Taman penincular (Krasnodar krai), you would see a lot of common words and very few different words.
However if you compare Russian vernacular of Ust-Donetskiy (Rostov oblast where Sev.Donets and Don meet) to Balachka of Taman peninsular, you would see much more difference (than between Surzhyk and Balachka of Taman penincular).
This means that Balachka of Taman penincular is a continuum of Ukrainian whereas vernacular of Ust-Donetskiy is a continuum of Russian.KKonstantin (talk) 09:13, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to see some refrences for those statements. Particularly as my own Varenikovskaya is located on the Taman peninsula and the balachka spoken here is much closer to standard Russian than Ukrainian, I have numerously explained above and will not repeat myself more. --Kuban Cossack 19:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Vernacular vs. Literary

message: I agree that at a certain point if editors have identified pertinent references, those should work their way into the article. However, if they are simply deleted as currently unused, then they're lost to editors other than whoever first identified them. Please use this section as a placeholder for references which haven't made it into the article. I'm starting off the list with the ones most recently deleted. If you want to discuss the reliability of a particular reference, please discuss beneath the list, don't break it up. I've numbered the list so it's easier to refer to the items; once a reference has made it into the article, please strike it through leaving it in place. —PētersV (talk) 15:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Potentially useful references

message: Its not a dialect of either Russian or Ukrainian, as NEITHER of these languages exist in the historic sense. This is an East Slavic language!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.22.250.108 (talk) 04:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: z duba ruchnul?
For not looking such an idiot making such a nonsensical statement about the "sense", next time you have to get first some knowledge what are saying about.
77.52.154.75 (talk) 07:04, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  East Slavic.  

message: I hope noone minds, as it seems the dispute here is settled. --Kuban Cossack 16:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality tag removed

message: It seems that a person who holds control over anything relating Ukraine - is always involved in controversies not to mention very questionable means of disinformation.
A person who is constantly a source of controversy in anything relating Ukraine should not be allowed to hold Ukrainian content at his/her disposal.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vvolodymyr (talk • contribs) 13:29, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ? --Kuban Cossack (По-балакаем?) 14:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

text: рашка так боїться ноцианолістафф, шо навіть понівечену українську говірку абсолютно зденаціоналізованих кубанців які он криком кричать шо вони не українці, аж морди трусяться, засцяла визнавати тим чим вона є - українською говіркою. Ото й уся дискусія. Не партесь, панове, ноцианолісти не посягають на ваш суверенітет над загарбаними від інших народів землями, їм просто нема причин на відміну від вас матню мнути й вигадувати різні фарсовості і вітієватості навколо походження цієї балачки "шоп жеш боже упасі... миш жеш токмо рассіа алєс капут". А вам, кубанскійь кассакЬ, спеціально: ви самодурЬ, ви весь толкпейдж намагаєтесь довести (очевидно не тільки нашим заморським товаріщям), абсурд, так наче хтось до вашої станітси, ну а точніше - бандєровци кордон український ведуть. Бульдозерами. ;) чого ви кіпішуєте? Шо то українська колись була, чистісінька як на черкащині якійсь знаємо і ви і ми. Так же як і те шо зараз там 100% рашка. Я не розумію, в чому суть так довсирачки спотворювати свою історію? Нашо? Просто тупо слово "український" муляє і низ спини не дає покою? Ви спотворили всю історію, навіть в таких дрібницях як тут - визнати очевидне походження діалекту від укр.мови, ви не можете: всеосяжний і нездоланний, широкий і непостіжимий попабіль не дає. Краще наклепати брєдятіни. Зато канонішно. Це безнадійно. Панове українці, не спорте тут, і не намагайтесь шось довести - це марно. І небезболісно для опонента. Хай пишуть шо хочуть.
77.52.154.236 (talk) 07:59, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undermined 

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