Talk:Litvin

message: I have moved parts of this edit to talk in case some editor think it's useful and wants to add it to this or other article after proper copyediting.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed text

message: Current version of "article" is an original research and representing some sort of fringe theory. External links and "sources" like  etc. not even close to the required criteria of reliable sources and actually is some sort of extreme nationalistic ones, which advocates to rename "State of Belarus" to Lithuania (!). Wikipedia is required that only high quality material should be presented, therefore per WP:RS,OR and WP:FRINGE  I converting this "article" to previous disambiguation. M.K. (talk) 08:20, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that you don't like the article in its present form or otherwise does not give you the right to "delete" it by redirecting the page to a disambig page which doesn't link to this article, hence "disappearing" the text. If you don't like the article, edit it. If you think sources are lacking, fact tag it. If you have questions about sources used, bring it up on RS. And discuss your changes. Thanks.radek (talk) 10:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  OR 

message: Nor google books  neither google scholar search  presents English usage of the current spelling of the article name, although it does present family names in abundance. I hope everyone will agree, that this is English Wikipedia?--Lokyz (talk) 19:06, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, this happens sometimes. But I agree we shall think what to do about this. - Altenmann >t 21:34, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

text: English Wikipedia can cover things that have reliable sources in different languages, even if there is no term for a given phenomenon in English language. Here's an example for you: communist crime. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  16:03, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with Piotrus. Anyway, in my opinion this article should remain under the present title. The problem with it is that the covers the conflict area of Belarusian and Lithuanian nationalisms. The point is how these two ethnic groups are portrayed by international historiography. At the beginning of the GDL Lithuanians are presented as Lithuanians, a mobile and consolidated group even though without written language and Christian traditions, whereas already Christian Belarusians are viewed not as Belarusians but rather as a part of "East Slavs" (or similar) and their language is differently called by different authors. I may quote at least 10 books with this approach. Furthermore Belarusian scholarship is thought not to meet international standards. Thus, it leads to a rather one-sided view on the matter. CityElefant (talk) 15:31, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  English usage 

message: To the author of the article: I’d like to offer some substantial corrections + a bunch of historical examples, so as to provide better understanding of who Litvins were. First of all, this denomination never served to identify a Baltic ethnicity ONLY. It always, since the very beginning was used to determine what we now call Lithuanians and Belarusians. It was a super-ethnical term. It is likely, that the term itself is of Slavic origin (mind the ending: -in). It was used to determine the dwellers of the Great Duchy of Lithuania, as of the 13th century, both (modern) Lithuanians and Belarusians. There was no such term as “Belarusian” in the Middle Ages, and all the Belarusian were called “Litvins” from 13th to 19th cent. 
In the 16th century (at the peak of Grand Dutchy’s might), there’s no any doubt, that ALL, who were called Litvins, spoke the Belarusian language. The Belarusian language (in the process of forming in 13-15 cc.) was the only language ever used by dukes and lords of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, until the end of the 14th century, when Latin added (fulfilling minor tasks of international correspondence). The Belarusian language was always used in all spheres of the governmental activities of GDL, including the laws of the state, where the rights of “Litvins” are stated. 
The Second Statute of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania of 1566 (in the Belarusian language) states:
“Въ томъ панстве Великомъ Князстве Литовскомъ и во всихъ земляхъ ему прислухаючыхъ достойностей духовныхъ и свецкихъ городовъ дворовъ и кгрунтовъ староствъ въ держаньи и пожываньи и вечностей жадных чужоземцомъ и заграничникомъ ани суседомъ таго панства давати не имаемъ; але то все мы и потомки наши Великіе Князи Литовскіе давати будуть повинни только Литве а Руси, родичомъ старожитнымъ и врожонцамъ Великаго Князства Литовского (…..) А хотя бы хто обчого народу за свое заслуги въ той речы посполитой пришолъ ку оселости зъ ласки и данины нашое, албо которымъ иншимъ правомъ; тогды таковые толко оселости оное ужывати мають будучы обывателемъ обецнымъ Великаго Князства и служачы службу земскую томужъ панству. Але на достоенства и всякій врядъ духовный и свецкій не маеть быти обиранъ, ани отъ насъ Господаря ставленъ, толко здавна продковъ своихъ уроженецъ Великого Князства Литовского  Л и т в и н ъ  и Русинъ».
(“In our state of Grand Duchy of Lithuania and in all of its lands, we (the Sovereign) shall grant any ranks and positions … to Litva (i.d. to Litvins) and to Russia (i.d. to Russians) only, who are ancient dwellers and natives of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.  … To any offices and appointments, only those shall be appointed by us, the Sovereign, who are ancient natives of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania –  L i t v i n  and Rusin (Ruthen)”.
During the times of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (1240-1795) all the modern “Belarusians” (the term itself come to a wide usage in tzar Russia, in the 19th century only) were called Litvins. And, by the way, only small part of modern Lithuanians were called “Litvins” in the GDL, as the entire half of them was called “Zhemoit” (Zhemaitia, Zhmudz – Samogitia), which is of common knowledge. And that half of the modern Lithanian folk, called Zhomoit, was not even regarded a native nation of the GDL in the Statutes, as Litvins and Russians were, and Zhomoit itself did not identified themselves with Litvins – which can be illustrated by many drastic examples.
Belarusians were called Litvins also after the times of the GDL, in the 19th century as well, which can be illustrated by the whole Russian 19th century literature. In any Russian book of the first half of the 19th century, a “Litvin” would mean a Belarusian (mind such authors as Pushkin and Turgenev). Ukranians called Belarusians “Litvins” until the 1940-s, which is illustrated by many folklore sayings. Dwellers of Bryansk and Kursk regions of Russia (bordering on Belarus), and of Bialystok region of Poland would call Belarusians “Litvins” all through the 19th century.
The point is, that the original name – which is “Litvin”, testified by so many medieval sources – is not ever-ever used by modern Lithuanians, who call themselves “lietuviai”, I don’t know for which reasons. They seem to give away the name for oblivion. Meanwhile, the name enjoys its revival in Belarus, where many prefer to be named “Litvins” and to identify themselves with the GDL, so more, it is widely known that Belarusians were called Litvins in the times of GDL, and contributed to almost all aspects of its culture. By the way, the surname “Litvin”, and its derivatives (Litvinchuk, Litvinok, Litvinov) are traditionally extremely frequent in Belarus. Meanwhile, there is no such surnames in modern Lithuania at all.
Let’s look at some examples of the historical Litvins. A statement about “Litvins” being a name of a Baltic ethnicity is totally incorrect, as the name embraced both Slavs and Balts at the time.
There is baron named “Luka Litvin” as early as in 1267 at the court of the Lithuanian Duke Dovmont, who was the ruler of Pskov since 1265. (Luka is an orthodox Christian name, popular with Slavs). So, what we see – is a person with an orthodox Christian name and, probably, a surname “Litvin”.
(Воскресенская летопись. ПСРЛ, т.7. М., 2001. с.166)
Yes, certainly, there are plenty of person with Baltic names called Litvins in the 13th century, including the very sovereigns of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, but there are Slavic person called “Litvins” as well.
Although the modern Lithuanians claim they were called “lietuviai” already at those times, and that even there were no “Litvins” at all (!), that’s incorrect. The first grand duke of the GDL, Mindaug (ruled 1240-1263), called himself “rex  L i t w i n o r u m ” (duke of Litwins) in his Latin letters. (РЛА, №122).
Lithuanian grand duke Viten (ruled 1294-1316) was also called “rex Litwinorum” in Latin sources. Peter of Duisburg (ca. 1326) depicted a crusader’s raid onto Litvins near Grodno in 1295:
“…five brothers (crusaders) and 150 men from Sambia and Nattangia went on a raid to the castle of Grodno (a city in modern Belarus); and when they  c a m e  c l o s e, they desired to dismount and to go down the Neman (river) on ships; they devastated a village of  L i t v i n s  on the riverbank there, killed and captured many people, and moved on”. 
So, in 1295 a village of Litvins was situated near Grodno, where Slavic population dwelled.
“Vilno martyrs” of 1347 were, no doubt, Slavs. Their names were Kumec, Kruglec and Nezhilo, which are distinct Slavic names, and they were naperers at the court of the Lithuanian grand duke Olgerd in Vilno. The chronicles said that “Kruglec, Kumec and Nezhilo were born of Litva”; “their  L i t h u a n i a n  names were Kruglec, Kumec, Nezhilo”.
 (Darius Baronas. Trys Vilniaus kankiniai: gyvenimas ir istorija. Aidai, Vilnius, 2000)
A Vilno prelate Matej (Matthew), according to a 1422 document, was a born Litvin (“venerabilem virum magistrum Mathiam origine Lytwanum”). However the Lithuanian grand duke Vitovt made a purposeful statement of Matej’s being appropriate for a position of Samogitian (modern Lietuva) bishop in Medniki (modern Varniai), for Matej had “a satisfactory command of the Samogitian dialect” (i.e. of what is now called the Lithuanian language) (“ac de ydiomate Samagitico sufficintissime institutum”). This never occurred with Litvins - bishops in the Belarusian lands (i.e. there are no any statements that they experienced any language troubles in, e.g. Krevo, Navahradak or Lida). This says, that normally Litvins did not have any command of the Samogitian dialect, even on a satisfactory level.
The second cathlic bishop of Vilno was also a Litvin – Jacub (Jan’s son) Plichta ([jakub plihta]), who died on February 2, 1407. The documents testify of him as of a distinct Litvin, from the nation and language of Litva (“Johannis dicti Plychta … viro vicarium Lythuanie, eiusdemque nacionis et lingue”). His name, father’s name and surname are distinctly Slavic.
 (Codex epistolaris Vitoldi, pp. 60-61, 103).
By the way, no other documents, than in the Belarusian language are known of the Lithuanian grand duke Vitovt (1392-1430), as well as of Jagailo (1382-1392), Olgerd (1345-1377), Keistut (co-ruled 1345-1382), and other dukes and barons of medieval Lithuania (with the exeption of Latin letters, found in international correspondence).
A Russian chronicle gives a list of “Lithuanian” dukes, who perished in the battle of Vorskla on August 12, 1399: “These are the names of the Lithuanian dukes, who perished: Andrey Olgerdovich of Polock (a Belarusian town), Dmitry Olgerdovich of Bryansk (a Russian town), Ivan Dmitrievich Kindyr, Andrey Dmitrievich, Ivan Evlashkovich, Leon Koriadovich, Michailo Vasylievich, his brother Semen Vasylievich, Michailo Podberezsky, his brother Alexander, Fedor Patrikeevich Rylsky, Andrey of Druck (a Belarusian town), Mont Toluntovich, Ivan Yuryevich Belsky…”. 
This is one of many examples, where there are so many Slavic names.
(Патриаршая или Никоновская летопись. - ПСРЛ, т. 11. М.: 2000. с. 174). 
The enlightener and Roman Pope Aneus Silvius Piccolomini wrote in 1458, that Litvins speak a Slavic language. Such European scientists as Hertman Schedel (in his “World Cronicon”, 1493), Jan Norich (in “Decachyston”, 1511), Jan of Bohemia (in “Omnius Gentes Mores”, 1538) and an Austrian diplomat Sigismund Herberstein (in “History of Moscovia”, 1549) wrote of Litva (Lithuania) as of a Slavic country, and alltogether considered the Lithuanian language a Slavic language.
Herberstein wrote in 1549:
“…the bison is called by Litvins in their language “Suber” (“zubr” is the bison in the Belarusian language); “the beast, called by Litvins in their language “Loss”, is called Ellend in German (elk, “los” in Belarusian); “the Sovereign assignes a governor there, whom they (Litvins) in their language call “Starosta”” (a name of an office in Belarusian).
A world known enlightener and cultural icon Francisk Skorina from Polock (who introduced book printing in Belarus and Russia in 1514) registered at the Krakov University as a “Litvin” in 1505.
A famous revolutionary activist and a national hero of the USA – Tadeusz Koscioszko (born near Brest, Belarus) – appealed to his companions: “Am I not your fellow countryman? Am I not a Litvin?..”. In his letter to the Russian tzar Kosciuszko wrote: “I was born a Litvin…”.
A world-famous poet Adam Mickewicz (who was born and dwelled near and in Navahradak – in Grodno region of Belarus) appealed to his native land as “O Litva (Lithuania)! My homeland!”.
The founder of the modern Belarusian dramaturgy and one of the fathers of the modern Belarusian language, Vincent Dunin-Marcinkevicz (1808-1884), considered himself to have been raised “among Litvins” (he was raised near Bobruisk and Minsk, in Belarus).
(Дунін-Марцінкевіч В. Збор твораў. Мн., 1958. С.362.)
A famous scientist, a national hero of Chili, Ignat Domeiko (born near Navahradak), wrote of “our Litvins” (in his book “My Travels”), embracing both Belarusian barons and peasantry of his times with the term. Domeiko’s Diploma (at Krakow University, 1887) was granted to “…a noble man Ignat Domeiko, a Litvin…”.
A Russian world-famous 19th century classic writer, Fedor Dostoevsky (whose ancestors came from Dostoevo estate near Pinsk) wrote: “my ancestors come from Lithuanian swamps…”.
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You might incorporate something of this, which you find interesting, into your article. Regards,
195.50.1.122 (talk) 14:29, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You may incorporate this yourself: wikipedia is an encyclopedia where everyone can edit. However there is an important  rule: all information must be supplied with references to serious sources, see wikipedia:Verifiability and WP:CITE rules. As I see, some of your info does have references, but not all. - Altenmann >t 15:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: 1) I ain't got skills to edit, so you'd better add what you liked from this information; 2) what references you need? and where, please specify; such statements, as "Litvins in the 16th century spoke Belarusian language" is obvious for everyone, you've probably just never been to Belarus... Regards.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.50.1.122 (talk) 05:34, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional info

message: I suggest some quotations from Aleksander Brückner's works should be added to this article. CityElefant (talk) 15:01, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please provide some examples.  Regards, 195.50.1.122 (talk) 05:54, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  For Aleksander Brückner Belarusian (białoruski) and Ruthenian (ruski) were interchangeable synonyms ("Ruskopolski rękopis z r. 1510", pp. 1, 10 in: Slavia: časopis pro slovanskou filologii, #7, 1928). Brückner also called Old Belarusian/Ruthenian language Lithuanian (litewski) (I'll provide a quote from his article in Slavia soon) and distinguished it from Ukrainian. "Mikołaj Rej jeżeli później o Rusinach opowiadał, prawili mu po "litewsku" (tj. po białorusku; Litwin u nego zawsze tyle co Białorusin), nigdy po małorusku" (source: Aleksander Brückner. Mikołaj Rej. PWN: Warszawa, 1988, p. 14). Translation: When Mikołaj Rej later described Ruthenians they addressed him in "Lithuanian" (i.e. Belarusian language, for him a Lithuanian [person] is exclusively a Belarusian) but never in Ukrainian (here literally: Little Russian). CityElefant (talk) 12:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aleksander Brückner 

message: I suggest adding some facts from the Belarusian (be-x-old) Wiki, as the current English article is a little bit stupid, it's not about the historical phenomenon of Litvins (as the name implies), but about those who nowadays are called Lietuviai, transposed into past (with viewing the "Lithuanian Statute" (in the Belarusian language) as their heritage... and other stupid things...). So I suggest adding something relevant. I'd do it myself, but last time I did it, there was a lot of shouting... 
So I suggest that all the participants present here would choose some points and agree before it's added, to prevent quarrelling. Then I'll translate them from Belarusian, and will add them. So here they are:
* 1) A statement from the Statute of 1566, that Samogitians were not considered a political nation in the GDL (only Litvins and Russian were, until 1588). Samogitians are a consistent part of present-day Lietuviai, so it is important.
* 2) An extract from Vilna parliament session in 1554, where Samogitians noblemen asked not to send Litvins as officials to Samogotia. It is very suspicious, once you think that Litvins presumably were "Lietuviai"... This passage can only be understood, if you realize that Litvins were a totally different nation from Samogitians, and Samogitians were afraid of them and totally did not see them as a cognate folk.
* 3) Several testimonies by scholars in the 19th and beg. of 20th century, that even in those times "Litvin" was the name of Belarusians as far as Gomel region (Eastern Belarus). I'm also ready to bring testimonies from scholars, that even by the end of the 19th century, dwellers of central and even Eastern Lietuva called themselves Samogitians.
* 4) Testimonies by chronicles about the Polock duke Vasil (1162), that he was a "Litvin"; about Minsk dukes Vseslav, Andrey and Vasilko in 1180 (who were called "litva"); and about the nobleman Luka Litvin in 1267 in Pskov (Luka is a Russian Christian name).
* 5) Western denominations of Litvins as "litowini, litwini" as early as 1221. Also in the act by duke Mindoug (a.1255) - "Litwinorum". Compared to Russian sources (Литвин) - it is obvious, that the original form of the name was "Litvin", no other.
* 6) Important!: a document from the Papal court (!) of 1257: states that the border between Poles and Litvins (confinio Letwanorum) at those times lied near river Bug, between Łuków and Brest. It is obvious, that Litvins of those times - it were the people who lived immediately near and to north and east of Brest - i.d. Brest region and to the north and east. This is the territory of South-West Belarus, which is more than 200 km far from Lietuva.
* 7) Three Vilna martyrs of 1347, who were (according to chronicles and their vita) "Lithuanians by birth", had obvious Slavic names: Kruglec, Kumec and Niezhilo. By the way, all three of them were officers at Olgerd's court.
* 8) The head of the Orthodox-Christian "Lithuanian" archdiocese (metropolitanate), which existed since around 1317 (since 1300, according to exact sources), named himself in his letters "metropolitan of Lithuania" (of the land, or of the folk) (μητροπολίτης Λιτβων). It is impossible, that he meant some kind of "pagan ethnic Baltic folk", as Litvins of the 14th century are presented now. The Lithuanian metropolitanate embraced territories of Navahradak, Vilna, Polock and Turau in 14th century, i.d. exactly the territory of the present-day Belarus plus Vilna region (i.e. = GDL). 
* 9) Chronicles give a range of obvious Slavic names and patronymics, listing "Lithuanian" dukes under the year of 1399. Also numerous dukes with Slavic names are known as "Lithuanian" dukes as early as 14th century.
* 10) Byzantian Emperor John V and Patriarch Theophil were called "Litvins" (литвинъ) by the Russian source of 1378. This was obviously due to their support of the Lithuanian metropolitanate.
* 11) Important!: In 1416, Vitaut's nobleman named Andrey (the Lithuanian chronicle itself says that Andrey was a "LITVIN"), cried to Vitaut: "Nie miri, Vitovte, nie miri" (Don't reconcile, o Vitovt, don't reconcile), as according to the chroncler's narration. Due to this fact, Vitaut gave Andrey the nickname Niemira, and the chronicle says, that the Lithuanian noble family of Niemirovicz were issued of this Andrey Niemira. As we see, Vitaut and Litvin Andrey Niemira had their conversation in the vernacular Belarusian language. There are many examples like this one. And there are never-ever any examples of a Baltic language in the lips of Litvins and Grand Dukes; or even allusions of a fact of such language's existance.
* 12) A big passage is devoted to Litvins in the University of Krakow in 1469—1536. There are many examples of Litvins' names there. They were: Sien'ko Horynsky, duke Andrey Svirski, Maciey Litvin and other Slavic names. And all of them were registered as "Litvins" at Krakow university. A tavern near the Lithuanian hostel in Krakow was kept by Litvins: Mikola Litvin and his wife Agneszka Litvinova. Their names are also clearly Slavic. The last doubts of who were Litvins in those times, and who were not, are dissoluted by the fact, that only one student from Samogitia was enrolled into Krakow University in those times, and he WAS NOT registered as "Litvin". :)  While numerous Litvins with Slavic names, as mentioned above, from Vilna, Minsk, Melnik, Svierzhen' and other Belarusian towns were all registered as Litvins. :)
* 13) By the way, someone said here, that Sapiehas were not regarded Litvins, and were Russians. This stereotype is broken by the act of 7 September, 1503 by Grand Duke Alexander, which stated that Ivan Sapeha (Grand Duke's secretary) was a Litvin: «Joanne Sopiha secretario nostro Litvano». By the way, Ivan Sapieha was then also a member of Pany-Rada (Lithuanian parliament - the name of the office is also in Belarusian).
* 14) Francysk Skaryna also enrolled Krakow University in 1505 as "Litvin". We shall note that.
* 15) There are numerous testimonies by Polish, Moscovite and Western scolars in 15-16 centuries, that Litvins are a Slavic folk, and Lithuanian language is a Slavic one. Already Aeneus Sylvius in 1430 wrote that the language of the Lithuanian nation is Slavonic (Lituania... Sermo gentis Sclavonicus est). There are such testimonies by Hertman Schedel (1493), John Noric (1511), John of Bohemia (1538) and Sigismund Herberstein (1549). Herberstein provides examples. 
* 16) Important!: The FIRST EVER KNOWN notice of Lithuanian language (1351) - is vernacular Belarusian! Duke Keystut and his Litvins (soldiers from Belarusian towns Berestie, Dorogiczyn, Horodno and Troki) pronounced words, as noted by the chronicler as Lithuanian (!) (lithwanice) language. The Latin translation (provided immediately) gives an almost exact translation of this Belarusian phrase. Almost all modern scholars agree, that this phrase was in Ruthenian (i.e. Old Belarusian). And this language was called Lithuanian (lithwanice) by the contemporary (1351!) source!!! As it is widely known, the Belarusian language was known as "Lithuanian" in GDL, before Jesuits appearance in Vilna in 1569, who started to promote an idea that the "real" Lithuanian language was Samogotian. Still, the Belarusian language continued to be known as "Lithunian" in GDL and in the official sources of neighbouring countries even centuries later. There are many examples of it during 15-19th centuries.
* 17) Grand Duke Yagailo in 1387 called "the language of Lithuanian nation" the language in which chase was named "pogonia" ("pogonia" is chase in Russian, as well as in Belarusian). Vilna bishop Andrey Vasila in 1398 gave examples of Slavic phrases and wrote that this was the language of common Lithuanian folk.
* 18) Moscovites called the language of correspondence with Krakow "the Lithuanian language". This correspondence, as it is very well known, was in Belarusian until the end of 17th century. 
* 19) The Lithuanian Statutes (of 1529, 1566, 1588) were written in the Belarussian language, and this very Statute states that it is written "in our own language". And these very Statutes did not regard Samogotians (an essential part of nowadays Lietuviai, at least the half) as the political nation up to 1588! Still this won't keep crazy Lietuviai from beleiving that the Lithuanian Statute was "THEIR" masterpiece of law; and they even have a coin, where a "Lietuvis" (presumably it must be one of the Statute's creators: Lev Sapieha of Martyn Volovicz - both were Belarusians) who is serving up the book of Statute to the Grand Duke! and it even has an inscription of some "lietuvos statutos"! This is crazy shit, man! Mind that the Statutes WERE NEVER translated from Belarusian into Samogitian (nowadays "Lithuanian") language, during GDL times!!! And Samogitians even, as we know, in 1554 were afraid of Litvins' occupying positions in Samogotia, and begged Grand Duke to prohibit Litvins to occupy official positions in Samogitia!
* 20) important: citations by contemporary scholars, that the name "Litvins" (Litviny) STILL EXISTS (1990-s!!) fractionally in Southern Belarus as a self-designation of rural dwellers.
* 21) Also IMPORTANT: statements by scholars. Someone here asked for statements by scholars, instead of citations from original sources. So, I've got something. Citations by Belarusian historians Nasievicz, Czakvin and Hryckiewicz, who in 1990-s claimed, that the nation of Litvins existed in GDL times, and it mostly was a designation of nowadays Belarusians. Citations by Y.Yukho, Dr.Sc., who claimed, that Litvins was the self-designation of the WHOLE Belarusian nation in GDL times (in 16-18 centuries or earlier), and in this very sense it existed in the legal documents, such as Statutes. By the Polish historian A.Brueckner, who claimed that Litvins was a designation of the whole Belarusian nation, already in the beginning of 16th century. And there were no other "Lithuanians" besides those.
So you can see, that such claims are not some "fantasies by Belarusian nationalists", and not some "marginal delirium" - but clear historical facts, supported by many historians from different countries.
So, I suggest you all to choose something relevant from these points (or from whatsoever more), to add something to the article. 
Also the article shall become more bulky and become divided into historical periods. And include more pictures, too, as on Belarusian (be-x-old) wiki.  Rasool-3 (talk) 14:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Will repeat what I said before: these kind of "facts" are a prime example of original research. You really need to understand what the concept means before you post further. You need to cite reliable sources (e.g. articles/studies/monographs by academically recognized historians) that argued that "Litvins = Belarusians". Only examples and arguments used in those works are acceptable on Wikipedia. Anything else (including quotes from primary sources) is your own research, unpublished and unsupported by academics. Until you can cite that historian X argued Y in his book Z (on page 123), all of the above has no place on Wikipedia. In other words, you Wikipedia needs to summarize arguments already presented by recognized academics and not invent something new. Also, to maintain neutral point of view, you need to include historians that disagreed with that conclusion. Renata (talk) 22:36, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible updates

message: Rasool-3, you need to understand that in the English language, "Lithuanian" refers to the Baltic people who live in Lithuania. In German they are called Litauer, in French Lituaniens, in Italian Lituani, and in the Slavic languages Litwini or some variant of that word. Lietuviai is the Lithuanian word for Lithuanian. It is not the English word for Lithuanian. Litvin is also not the English word for Lithuanians. Please get over that fact. During their early history the Lithuanians conquered vast underpopulated territories which included modern day Belarus as well as other territories that include other modern day countries. Just like the English were able to subdue other areas of the British Isles (with longer lasting effects). That the Ruthenians and other Slavic peoples comprised a significant portion of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (probably a numerical majority) is neither here nor there. If you want to note that many Ruthenians were subjects of Lithuania, and therefore were "Lithuanians" by virtue of that fact, go ahead, knock yourself out. Especially if it makes you feel better. Please keep in mind that Samogitia was also part of Lithuania. Too often these ultra-nationalistic rants are based on "Romanticized" monographs written in the 19th century in order to foster a political agenda. From all sides. It seems more than anything this is a semantical argument. We're on English Wikipedia at the moment. Lithuanian is an English word. Litvin is not. Dr. Dan (talk) 17:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Regarding Possible Updates

message: The recnt change of the intro is an opinion not supported by references to  to reliable sources. - üser:Altenmann >t 16:29, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent change in the intro 

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I have just added archive links to  on Litvin. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140408124644/http://manarchija.org:80/pazniak to http://www.manarchija.org/pazniak
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120225142226/http://kryuja.org/artykuly/interviju/dziermant_vialikaja_litva.html to http://kryuja.org/artykuly/interviju/dziermant_vialikaja_litva.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/65BNNIkIs?url=http://belstat.gov.by/homep/ru/perepic/2009/vihod_tables/5.8-0.pdf to http://belstat.gov.by/homep/ru/perepic/2009/vihod_tables/5.8-0.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140408124644/http://www.manarchija.org/pazniak to http://www.manarchija.org/pazniak
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://archive.is/20120722125830/http://www.belarusin.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=172:-1000---&catid=31:2009-05-04-11-10-04&Itemid=95%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%BD%D1%83%D0%B5%D0%BC to http://www.belarusin.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=172%3A-1000---&catid=31%3A2009-05-04-11-10-04&Itemid=95%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%BD%D1%83%D0%B5%D0%BC
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article completely ignored the fact that even disregarding the origins of the GDL, for the most of its lifetime the GDL was a Slavic state. There is no mention that Litvins was used as an identification name for its Slavic inhabitants. The endik (talk) 07:33, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  this article is biased and in its present form unnecessary