Talk:List of Black Sabbath and Heaven & Hell members

message: The stuff below is completely unintelligible, but I can only imagine you're talking about the new Dio Years tracks. These are Sabbath songs, not "Heaven & Hell" songs, and the band members themselves have referred to them as such. To date, there are no original "Heaven & Hell" songs. As of now, the band (of the original 4 members) is technically "on hiatus" and claims to be planning to release a project within the next year, and Dio and Appice are not "in" Black Sabbath at the moment. HOWEVER, we'll have to watch what happens over the next year or so, as certain circumstances could retroactively render this period to become "Black Sabbath" (i.e. Ozzy and Bill leave the band for good and the current incarnation starts touring as Sabbath, etc.). Prezuiwf 19:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone willing to make a chart? It'd be much easier to read. I would, but I don't know how. The top bars would be Vocalist, Guitarist, Bassist, Drummer. The left would be the years. -Winter123 (talk) 03:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The current table format is the standard member history format used for many bands as a support article for the main band articles. It does not require any additional material such as "by year" or "by instrument" text. This is just a duplication of the data already contained in the table and is useless. Anger22  (Talk 2 22) 22:19, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks... I was just about to type the same thing. Consensus is to go with the standard table and not include any other superfluity. Libs (talk) 22:25, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The original table was deleted, now restored 

message: Two issues:  1.) I saw someone cite interest in a chart.  I will create one if people really are interested.  Those are fun, and I find them much more helpful that the text list style currently employed on the page.
2.) I've re-added Adam Wakeman's credit as keyboardist on the 2004-era Black Sabbath tours.  Please do not delete it, as he is a legitimate member in the same manner as Nicholls (ie, if Nicholls receives a credit for his role as keyboardist, Wakeman should receive the same, as he fulfills the same function.)  I've added a citation.  Wakeman's tours were proper Sabbath tours (ie, with Osbourne and Ward,) and do not relate to the Heaven and Hell controversy.  While we're on the subject, I'll weigh in with my opinion that Heaven and Hell should be left to separate from Sabbath, and the newly recorded songs should not be consider Sabbath recordings, in keeping with Iommi's wishes.  Colinclarksmith (talk) 22:38, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with comparing Adam Wakeman with Geoff Nichols.  GN was an offical member during the Seventh Star era, listed as a band member on the album, appearing on-stage for the tour, and was in all promotional photographs.  If Adam is included (I don't believe he should) you would have to include his father Rick, Mike Bordin, Rob Halford, and even Ice-T.  BTW I also disagree with including Jo Burt and Dave Donato on this list.  J04n (talk) 02:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've decided I agree with you on the A. Wakeman/Nichols issue, as Nichols was indeed an on-stage, full-status member during the Seventh Star sessions, although I think that Adam Wakeman has a more significant relationship with the band than, say, Ice-T.  But that's neither here nor there - I agree that Adam Wakeman is best excluded from the list.  No opinion on Dave Donato, but wasn't Jo Burt's bass work used on the Eternal Idol?  I can't remember at the moment.  Colinclarksmith (talk) 05:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I was using Ice T to emphasize my point.  But your mention of the bass player for Eternal Idol brings up a good point.  It was actually Bob Daisley on bass, but Dave Spitz received the credit.  Should Bob Daisley be "on the list" after serving esentialy as a session musician...I say no, but now this list has no bassist for Eternal Idol.  Very tricky.  I'm going to delete Adam Wakeman. J04n (talk) 11:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Tricky indeed.  Adam Wakeman deletion sounds fair.  Colinclarksmith (talk) 19:44, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interest in a chart? ; Adam Wakeman credit 

message: Should DD be on this list?  I vote no, if no one disagess I will delete him. J04n (talk) 11:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  David Donato 

message: Does JB belong on this list?  I vote no, if no one disagess I will delete him. J04n (talk) 11:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jo Burt 

message: it worked just fine forever, and now it needs to be changed? add it on to the page, i like being able to scroll down and see what the lineup was completely lame.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.74.151 (talk) 02:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  why did we have to change the format 

message: I removed Born Again from Bev Bevan's release contributions, he performed on the tour but not on the album.  Bill Ward was the drummer for Born Again. J04n (talk) 02:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bev Bevan 

message: I put the chart back, what do people think? J04n (talk) 02:46, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a third column with "contributions" if someone can figure out how to move the "See also" Heavan and Hell to UNDER the table please do, I give up on that.  Please feel free to improve the table.  J04n (talk) 01:39, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Chart is great!  I personally greatly prefer that type of chart (extended lists chronologically listing lineups) for band member Wikipedia articles, although I'm not sure whether or not I'm in the majority.  I think the formatting could use a few small touch-ups, including getting that damn "see also" at the bottom where it belongs, which I will try my hand at sometime soon.  Cheers! Colinclarksmith (talk) 19:13, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I tweeked it a bit and was able to move the "see also" to the bottom. J04n (talk) 04:44, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I reformatted the chart a bit, expanding it to 100% of the article size (which looks better on my dinosaur of a PC, hopefully the same is true for other computers and browsers), gave everyone bold typeface etc., and also made a few small additions, including the Heaven & Hell rehersal lineup (with Nicholls on bass), and the two occasions when Rob Halford performed with the band.  These are all dubious "lineups" and can be disputed, I realize, but I favor their inclusion while being open to differing opinions.  Colinclarksmith (talk) 19:59, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I like alot of what you did but I have to say thay I don't like the 100% table size.  It leaves a big gap between the "linups through the years" subheading and the actual table.  I'm also not sure why you went with the small font for the non-album contributions. J04n (talk) 05:50, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't checked out the table on a non-dinosaur computer (such as the one I use) yet.  If you think standard browsers (whatever they are these days) would be better suited to a differently sized chart, feel free to do so - although a few band member charts that I like that are full-sized include the List of Red Hot Chili Peppers band members and List of L.A. Guns band members charts, which I've used as references, as well as the List of SNFU band members and List of Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds band members charts which I myself have made.  As for the small font, I like it for differentiating the 'significant' (ie, album) contributions and the 'minor' (ie, non-album) contributions lineups have made.  I'm not married to that either, so change it if you like.  Colinclarksmith (talk) 22:43, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The difference between this and the Chili Pepper list is that this one has the band information box, without the box on the right there isn't the gap I mentioned.  The thing about the Chi Pepper box that I like though is that each line-up is referenced.  That may be something worth tacklingJ04n (talk) 02:23, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I like that about the Chili Pepper page too.  That sounds like a good project for a rainy day.  Colinclarksmith (talk) 17:45, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chart 

message: Well that's fucked up. I spent ages doing all that, it is the common format of band member lists now, plus there was no consensus reached or even attempted. So much for Wikipedia being a fucking democracy.
If the shitty line-up table means so much, why not ADD it to the previous info, as opposed to just using it INSTEAD of it. Tits. Andre666 (talk) 09:38, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry you feel that way.  On 11/16/08 it was brought up on this discussion page to switch to a chart and there were no dissenting comments.  I'm fairly new to this but isn't there a voting process to settle these issues.  Your information can be regained by undoing. J04n (talk) 13:09, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm also sorry to hear that, and sorry that you feel that your time was wasted (that's a terrible feeling!)  The information is not deleted, it resides in the article's history section and can easily be resurrected by locating previous edits.  I don't believe there is a "standard" for band member history articles, merely different formats that suit different tastes.  The current table instituted by J04n and touched up by me happens to be the format that I prefer.  Others disagree.  Also, Wikipedia is not a democracy in the manner that you suggest, but a non-voting consensus derived directly from the actions of the contributors.  Your opinion can be voiced as easily as mine, and the viewing/editing/contributing community can react to your contributions as they see fit.  So I encourage you to respond with your own formatting decisions.  Colinclarksmith (talk) 22:51, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  All old information deleted? 

message: Added a graphical timeline, not 100% complete but pretty close.  Feel free to improve on it. J04n(talk page) 03:01, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I notice someone has filled in the formerly blank gap between 2006-2011 on the timeline. Black Sabbath was inactive during that period; should it not remain empty? If anything were to be filled in there, surely it would be the Dio/Appice/Butler/Iommi lineup that was touring under the name heaven and hell?--ERAGON (talk) 16:15, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah....it unquestionably should be blank. I have reverted it. Woknam66 talk  James Bond 22:58, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

text: There seems to be a missing vertical black line (studio album) in 1975 for the album "Sabotage", right? (I'm not a Black Sabbath expert, so I'm not 100% sure if there should be a black line there)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.60.193.243 (talk) 17:44, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timline 

message: Here's an alternate version of the members table which may or may not be more readable than the one you have already. Perhaps you could discuss it amongst yourselves as to whether you feel it could be used. I think I've simply transposed the information that was currently present, so I cannot vouch for its accuracy. One anomaly seems to be with Geoff Nicholls, his role as a studio and off-stage live keyboardist is consistent, but his status seems to be perceived differently during his tenure with the band. — Drwhawkfan (talk) 14:33, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it looks superior to the table now in place, nice work.  Feel free to change it over (if others don't like it, it can always be changed back), but I would still leave the graph unless people think it is redundant. J04n(talk page) 14:44, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've moved the alternate table over onto the main page seeing as no-one has raised any objections. — Drwhawkfan (talk) 13:23, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternate table 

message: Only at some points in the band's career was Geoff Nicholls credited as a full member of the band. He should only be listed for these periods. (The Elfoid (talk) 16:42, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  geoff Nicholls 

message: "Adam Wakeman
Active: 2004–present
Instruments: keyboards
Release contributions: none "
This is taken from the list of all black sabbath members; why isn't he credited as an actual member in the main page? I added him and it got deleted... is he not member any more (I dont know that much about this band, just asking).
: Late response, but its because he is only a touring member. There are plenty of musicians who come in for concerts and so forth, but are not full members of said bands. In this case, Adam Wakeman is one such musician. --ERAGON (talk) 01:13, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Adam Wakeman

message: The Headless Cross article says Cottle was a session musician and not a full member; the article Laurence Cottle doesn't even mention Sabbath. Can somebody who knows more about the band than me either move Cottle to the guests list or fix the 2 articles I mentioned? --kingboyk (talk) 12:53, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Laurence Cottle 

message: This article says that Ozzy was fired from the band. The main article says he quit: Black Sabbath. Anyone know which is correct? 67.80.97.86 (talk) 20:55, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Both, actually. He quit in 1978, and then rejoined midway through the recording of Never Say Die. Then, in 1979 he got so fried he could not tell the difference between AM and PM and missed a concert; Iommi fired him for it. The details are written in his book.--ERAGON (talk) 03:01, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was Ozzy Fired or Did He Quit? 

message: They have had two full time common musicians; Glenn Hughes and Ian Gillian. Don Airey was also in Deep Purple but only as a sessional musician for sabbath. Should they be included?--ERAGON (talk) 22:10, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Deep Purple as associated act?

message: I didn't think he was an actual member; being the equivalent of what Laurence Cottle later became: a session guy. Wouldn't Bob be under session musician section if that were the case?
Also, what was up with Dave Spitz, the other bassist at around that time? Wasn't he the "official" bassist at the time?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.68.57.211 (talk) 05:02, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The Laurence Cottle situation is surprisingly complicated, with him claiming membership and the band denying it. Bootlegged recordings do exist, but he worked with them in the period preceding the release of 'Seventh Star'. That album was ultimately released as 'Black Sabbath, featuring Tony Iommi' due to record label pressure, but prior to that Iommi had been attempting to release it as the first album of a solo career. Arguably, Black Sabbath did not exist for a period of about six months before that record label ruling, during which Cottle's entire tenure with them took place. There is no real consensus on that one. --ERAGON (talk) 09:48, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Bob Daisley

message: I propose a change to the timeline. I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes, but I just want to throw the idea out there. Since Heaven & Hell was touring in the absence of a true Black Sabbath in support of Black Sabbath albums, and performing primarily Black Sabbath songs, with 4 prior members of Black Sabbath, they go quite unmentioned on this page. I propose the following timeline, as it still shows the difference between the two bands, yet shows how they intertwine. (If Sabbath were active during that time, this wouldn't work) I think this shows everything very nicely. Could still use some tweaking? please comment. — DLManiac (talk) 23:57, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good to me.--ERAGON (talk) 11:19, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

text: I would support including more information on Heaven and Hell, though I think adding them to the timeline chart makes it more confusing. I am especially against adding "The Dio Years" as a studio album on the Black Sabbath chart. To begin with, a compilation album with only a few new songs isn't regarded as a studio album; also, it is not a Black Sabbath album, according to... well... Wikipedia (I mean, consensus of millions of editors, blah-blah...) ...it's not in the Black Sabbath discography article. We could add some text above the timeline explaining that this doesn't include Heaven & Hell. OrlinKolev (talk) 23:22, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion more info of Heaven & Hell and New timeline proposition 

message: ImageSize = width:1200 height:auto barincrement:25
PlotArea = left:100 bottom:80 top:10 right:10
Alignbars = justify
DateFormat  = dd/mm/yyyy
Period = from:01/08/1969 till:31/12/2014
TimeAxis = orientation:horizontal format:yyyy
Colors =
  id:guitar   value:green      legend:Guitar
  id:vocals   value:red        legend:Vocals
  id:bass     value:blue       legend:Bass
  id:drums    value:orange     legend:Drums
  id:keys     value:purple  legend:Keyboards
  id:lines1   value:black      legend:Studio_Albums
  id:bars     value:gray(0.95)
  id:lines2   value:gray(0.7)  legend:Live_Recordings
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Legend = orientation:vertical position:bottom columns:1
BackgroundColors = bars:bars
ScaleMajor = unit:year increment:2 start:1970
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  bar:Band text:Band
  bar:Tony   text:Tony Iommi
  bar:Ozzy   text:Ozzy Osbourne
  bar:Ronnie text:Ronnie James Dio
  bar:Ian    text:Ian Gillan
  bar:Glenn  text:Glenn Hughes
  bar:Ray    text:Ray Gillen
  bar:Tony2  text:Tony Martin
  bar:Geezer text:Geezer Butler
  bar:Spitz  text:Dave Spitz
  bar:BobD   text:Bob Daisley
  bar:Cottle text:Laurence Cottle
  bar:Neil   text:Neil Murray
  bar:Bill   text:Bill Ward
  bar:Vinny  text:Vinny Appice
  bar:Singer text:Eric Singer
  bar:Cozy   text:Cozy Powell
  bar:Bobby  text:Bobby Rondinelli
  bar:Geoff  text:Geoff Nicholls
PlotData=
  align:center textcolor:white fontsize:8 width:15 shift:(0,-5)
  bar:band   from:01/08/1969 till:01/02/2006 color:bs text:"Black Sabbath"
  bar:band   from:11/11/2011 till:end color:bs text:"Black Sabbath"
  bar:band   from:01/02/2006 till:24/07/2010 color:hh text:"Heaven & Hell"
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  bar:Tony   from:01/08/1969 till:01/02/2006 color:guitar
  bar:Tony   from:11/11/2011 till:end color:guitar
  bar:Ozzy   from:01/08/1969 till:16/02/1979 color:vocals
  bar:Ronnie from:15/06/1979 till:16/11/1982 color:vocals
  bar:Ian    from:16/12/1982 till:04/10/1984 color:vocals
  bar:Glenn  from:01/10/1984 till:23/03/1986 color:vocals
  bar:Ray    from:25/03/1986 till:01/03/1987 color:vocals
  bar:Tony2  from:01/03/1987 till:16/08/1991 color:vocals
  bar:Ronnie from:01/10/1991 till:13/02/1993 color:vocals
  bar:Tony2  from:01/02/1993 till:01/12/1995 color:vocals
  bar:Ozzy   from:01/03/1997 till:01/03/2006 color:vocals
  bar:Ozzy   from:11/11/2011 till:end color:vocals
  bar:Geezer from:01/08/1969 till:01/02/1985 color:bass
  bar:Spitz  from:01/02/1985 till:01/10/1986 color:bass
  bar:BobD   from:01/10/1986 till:01/08/1988 color:bass
  bar:Cottle from:01/08/1988 till:01/10/1989 color:bass
  bar:Neil   from:01/10/1989 till:01/08/1991 color:bass
  bar:Geezer from:01/08/1991 till:01/10/1994 color:bass
  bar:Neil   from:01/10/1994 till:01/12/1995 color:bass
  bar:Geezer from:01/03/1997 till:01/03/2006 color:bass
  bar:Geezer from:11/11/2011 till:end        color:bass
  bar:Bill   from:01/08/1969 till:18/08/1980 color:drums
  bar:Vinny  from:16/08/1980 till:16/11/1982 color:drums
  bar:Bill   from:16/11/1982 till:15/01/1985 color:drums
  bar:Singer from:15/07/1985 till:01/07/1988 color:drums
  bar:Cozy   from:01/07/1988 till:01/08/1991 color:drums
  bar:Vinny  from:01/10/1991 till:01/02/1993 color:drums
  bar:Bobby  from:01/02/1993 till:01/07/1994 color:drums
  bar:Cozy   from:01/10/1994 till:01/12/1995 color:drums
  bar:Bill   from:01/03/1997 till:01/03/2006 color:drums
  bar:Bill   from:11/11/2011 till:15/02/2012 color:drums
  bar:Geoff  from:15/05/1979 till:31/05/2006 color:keys
  bar:Tony   from:01/02/2006 till:24/07/2010 color:teal
  bar:Ronnie   from:01/02/2006 till:16/05/2010 color:claret
  bar:Geezer   from:01/02/2006 till:24/07/2010 color:darkblue
  bar:Vinny   from:01/02/2006 till:24/07/2010 color:redorange
  width:2.5 textcolor:black align:left anchor:from shift:(10,-4)
  bar:Tony   from:21/06/1971 till:25/08/1976 color:keys
 
LineData =
  at:13/02/1970 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:18/09/1970 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:21/07/1971 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:25/09/1972 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:01/12/1973 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:28/07/1975 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:25/09/1976 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:28/09/1978 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:25/04/1980 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:04/11/1981 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:07/08/1983 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:28/01/1986 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:01/11/1987 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:24/04/1989 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:20/08/1990 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:22/06/1992 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:31/01/1994 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:08/06/1995 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:10/06/2013 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:19/12/1970 color:lines2 layer:back  
  at:16/03/1973 color:lines2 layer:back
  at:06/08/1975 color:lines2 layer:back  
  at:31/12/1981 color:lines2 layer:back
  at:24/04/1982 color:lines2 layer:back
  at:13/04/1994 color:lines2 layer:back
  at:04/12/1997 color:lines2 layer:back
  at:29/04/2013 color:lines2 layer:back
  at:30/03/2007 color:lines2 layer:back
  at:28/04/2009 color:lines1 layer:back
  at:30/07/2009 color:lines2 layer:back
:Looks good to me.--ERAGON (talk) 11:19, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support including more information on Heaven and Hell, though I think adding them to the timeline chart makes it more confusing. I am especially against adding "The Dio Years" as a studio album on the Black Sabbath chart. To begin with, a compilation album with only a few new songs isn't regarded as a studio album; also, it is not a Black Sabbath album, according to... well... Wikipedia (I mean, consensus of millions of editors, blah-blah...) ...it's not in the Black Sabbath discography article. We could add some text above the timeline explaining that this doesn't include Heaven & Hell. OrlinKolev (talk) 23:22, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Timeline

message: Band timeline image appears to be broken. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to fix it? Sk8r2000 (talk) 13:33, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timeline glitched 

message: Why, in the recording timeline section, not rotate of 90 degrees the name of the albums to make it fit on the page (and optionally put the name in the right rotation in a footnote)? So the page can fit in the screen  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.58.204.155 (talk) 17:19, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Recording timeline section suggestion

message: The time line's bunked.  I'm not familiar enough with all the members to update it.  I know The Earth is integral to Black Sabbath, as is The Dawn Of Recorded Time (or from whence Black Sabbath emerged...or was the Led Zeppelin...I don't remember).  I just don't know who all these other folks are and how and when they played.
Liberty5651 (talk) 01:01, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can Somebody Fix The Timeline? 

message: Should the Timeline and Lineups consider the period from September – November 1968 when Iommi left Earth to join Jethro Tull? It was less than three months, but those sections take into account other brief periods, like the March – April 1984 with Ron Keel as vocalist. Besteirense (talk) 19:26, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iommi as a continuous member