Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 38

message: :# Because "Adolf Hitler"'s articles are so painstakingly long and enourmous full of incredible detail, (more than the George Washington article even) you end up with all this controversy.
I suggest that Adolf Hitler's articles be compressed with several sections and lone articles be completely removed. Wikipedia is not a textbook it is not a biography book either. Let's keep this on the level of an article.
And this article alone has about 13,700 words. That is longer than some multi-chapter short  stories!
In other words: keep it short, keep it simple. Wikipedia isn't a dumping ground for all the information you know because your mom told you so or from all the collection of books you have. 
Take at least 40 seconds to think about people who use Wikipedia as guide source of information. Colonel Marksman 18:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The world pays far more attention to Hitler than to George Washington. There has been far more written in published sources about Hitler than George Washington. The greater coverage of Hitler on Wikipedia is a reflection of society's greater interest in Hitler. This is how it should be, it would be wrong if Wikipedia devoted the same amount of space to Washington and Hitler, if society devotes much more attention to Hitler than to Washington. Drogo Underburrow 22:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Proposal''' 

message: I put my objections here since above is already crammed:
*ommission of the (should be uncontroversial) fact that such an upbringing was common in Upper Austria. Confirmed by both Kershaw and Rissmann taht there was nothing special in Hitler’s upbringing. 
*Stylistically I also object to saying „by his RC parents“ – if he’s brought up a RC it is understood that his parents are RC and the stance of the two are covered in depth in the following sentence.
*deletion of the influence of pan-german thinking and Darwinism – might not be universally accepted (though no contradictory voice has been given) but because of that I have already disclaimed by “According to Rissmann”
*deletion of the fact (again, not contradicted by anyone) that Hitler didn’t have any religious or Christian or Catholic practice after he left home. No contradictory voice is given, hence it may count as undisputed. The factual reference is replaced by a weasel “a boyhood friend never saw him” – there is more than just one boyhood friend and that friend didn’t say that he never saw him go to Mass but that he never went to Mass and that he stated he “would not be forced into Church”, which is quite a different matter. (so Factual Accuracy is concerned, below abbreviated as FACT)
*Refusal to accept the general and standard definition of what a “pracitising Catholic” constitutes. The “confirmation event” is raised to unwarranted prominence (it was an event where his rebellion became obvious, not the cause of the rebellion).
*The misusing of Kershaw does not appear in the current version, so I won’t repeat my objections (noted above) which however remain valid. (This would have been a factual dispute.)
*Though I agree with him I don’t like the characterization of Chadwick as eminent. In general I object to such classification of sources and authorities unless absolutely necessary. I especially object to them when they are false and weasely (see Toland below)
*POV pushing by using a blockquote for Hitler’s pro-Christian statements.
*I prefer adding a year to Hitler’s “always a Catholic” statement – other utterances are dated as well and especially in this case it is important when he said it. We shouldn’t attribute prophetic qualities to Hitler – he couldn’t make a valid statement about what he will “always” be, if he was speaking in earnest.
*I protest against (re-)moving the factual reference of Hitler never ending his church membership and what Speer (referenced and disclaimed by “according to…”) had to say about that. – in the current version it is included much further down, hanging “in the air”.
*I protest against the inclusion of the sentence: “Though Hitler spoke against traditional Christianity in general, he in fact may have been referring to Catholicism, according to Steigmann-Gall.“ – yes, it is referenced but is also utter bullocks, turning words around in Hitler’s mouth and in St-G’s is nothing more than a speculation
*I also reject the following: “In any event, "No matter how much he vituperated against Christianity or the churches, Hitler gave no indication that he was now agnostic or atheistic: He displayed a continued attachment to a belief in God." – The „in any event“ is a unwarranted endorsement. The info warrant inclusion but IMHO should be included at a better place.
*“As some branches of liberal Protestantism also had similar views,“ – I always preferred „As Protestantism was more open to such reinterpretations“, as it is problematic to associate liberal Protestantism in general (even if we say some branches) with the unclear „similar views“ (what views exactly?). No one will suspect me of POV pushing on this as I am quite openly not a liberal Protestant. I tried to use a compromise version which included the substance of both, but it just got reverted.
*I object to calling John Toland (which is still linked wrongly) “notable Hitler biographer“, as it is a POV endorsement of him (see above) and also wrong. Kershaw would fit that description, even the now dated Bullock (though I’d still object)
*I also object to the inclusion of Toland’s claim that Hitler was “Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy“, as it is misleading given the facts of the matter. We have already stated (in either version) that Hitler didn’t leave the church but how good his standing was is quite another matter. (FACT)
*I do not object to the mentioning of the „deicide“ issue and have included it in my version (though it might be better suited in the Anti-semitism section)
*I reject the inclusion of the Lewy quote as it is based on Hitler’s Reichstag speech we already have quoted above. No need to include it twice.
*"According to historian Richard Steigmann-Gall, much is known about Hitler's views on religion through Hitler's book, Mein Kampf.“ Introduces a whole section of problematic bits. What follows is quotes from Mein Kampf (still unreferenced) which are useful to include. However, this all needs to be integrated into the text (as my version did). Note that this is no section of retelling Mein Kampf or retelling Steinmann-Gall but one devoted to actually giving information about Hitler’s religion. Hence editorial notes explaining how Hitler used this word hat word are out of place.
*„He also states his belief that the Aryan race was created by God,“ is nonsense, even more so if Hitler were a Christian, since of course the other races would fit in there too. If anything in this direction is notable it is Hitler’s belief about the JEws.
*„Refering to God as the "Lord of Creation" and the necessity of obeying "His" will, show Hitler's Christian thinking“ is also nonsense, as these words contain no particular Christian wordings – a Jew, a Muslim, a Deist could have said the same thing.  (FACT)
*The following paragraph is completely sinking to the level of being a table of contents fort he Steinmann book: „Elsewhere in Mein Kampf, he says, Hitler makes references to Jesus. Other sources also show Hitler's Christian thinking, according to Steigmann-Gall. He notes an unpublished manuscript where Hitler sketched out his world-view, and he gives as an example a speech on April 1922 where Hitler said that Jesus was "the true God". Finally, Steigmann-Gall gives another example where in a private Nazi meeting Hitler again stated the centrality of Jesus' teachings to the Nazi movement.“ 
*„Hitler's religious beliefs demonstrated the anti-Semitic view that Jesus was an Aryan rather than a Jew“ is both claiming something that hasn’t been demonstrated and also including a highly questionable characterisation: I think to make Jesus an Aryan is both factually wrong and against the core of Christianity (if  not Jew, then no Messiah), hence anti-Christian, I can see that it is motivated by anti-Semitism but I can’t see that the view itself is anti-semitic. Anyway, the paragraph adds nothing substantial to the section.
*The text says that „Hitler writes of his Christian influence on his view of Jews“, but the following quote does not warrant such an introduction, as Hitler does not write on this Christian influence (the text of course implies against NPOV that there are such influences. The quote is an example of the reinterpretation of Jesus as an anti-Jewish hero and of the reinterpretation of the crucifixion, ridding it of any redemptive value. (FACT)
As I said, there are in the “Gio/Drogo version” various instances of an unfinished text and I went all the way last week trying to include the Mein Kampf quotes into the text where it fitted best IMHO. My work simply got reverted.
It contains various violations of NPOV by endorsing certain statements, stating things as facts that are highly debatable or even outright false, putting things into question that are undisputed, rewriting to play down unsuitable facts, highlighting a certain point via technical edits (block quotes) and by repeating it over and over again.
Str1977 (smile back) 13:27, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hitler's religious beliefs - NPOV and factual dispute

message: *ommission of the (should be uncontroversial) fact that such an upbringing was common in Upper Austria. Confirmed by both Kershaw and Rissmann taht there was nothing special in Hitler’s upbringing.
: - Agreed. This is indeed uncontroversial, and I doubt if anyone has any strong objection to it being said. Str77 never tried to insert this statement, if he had, I doubt if anyone would have deleted it. What people objected to was his reverting the entire section to his preferred version. - Drogo Underburrow 20:17, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not strongly object but I question the need to include what others in the area believe as being relevant to Hitler. Far more relevant is the beliefs that young Adolf was raised with, in particular those who rasied him---his parents beliefs, which by all accounts was sincere and devout, strict, even. It seems the purpose of emphasising "nothing special" serves to undermine the sincereity of the fact that Hitler was raised a fully practicing Catholic, as it pushes the idea that his family was just following the norm, since that was what everyone else did. That is like if a Christian professes their Christianity, and then we comment, "but ofcourse he is a Christian---people are rasied Christian in that areas where he comes from." It acts as a dismissive remark to the beliefs held by the person professing, and is not really relevant to their beliefs. So what if it was common to be rasied a Christian in the area---that is not important. What is important, in this regard, is how the individual in question is rasied--not how others in the area are. But, I wonder, did the majority of children in the area become a choir boy, and be as involved in the Church to the degreee that Hitler's parents had him involved--to the extent that Hitler himself considered joining the clergy himself? I think while most were Catholic, his mother is noted for being an esp. devout one. Giovanni33 21:11, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Giovanni33's comments. I have no objection to saying that Hitler grew up in a Catholic area. I object strongly when this fact is then used to claim that this covers the entire matter and there is no need to discuss Hitler's family specifically. See my comments about objection 2. Drogo Underburrow 21:21, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Gio and Drogo, above.MikaM 04:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that Mika can do no more than agree with Gio since … Str1977 (smile back) 22:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

text: There is no such claim, Drogo. Very many boys sang in the choir, though that feat probably was the most exclusive in Hitler's upbringing. There was nothing special in his upbringing is the consensus of historians. Str1977 (smile back) 13:48, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Objection 1

message: *Stylistically I also object to saying „by his RC parents“ – if he’s brought up a RC it is understood that his parents are RC and the stance of the two are covered in depth in the following sentence.
: - So you want it said that he was brought up in a Roman Catholic area, but you don't want it said that his parents where Roman Catholic? That is illogical, and plain arbitrary. Its more important to state what a person's parents believe, than what people in the area where he was brought up believe, as the primary determining factor in what a person believes as a child, is what his parents tell him. Perhaps this is why you object, you don't want people to infer that at any time in his life, Hitler himself was a devout Catholic? Hmmm...perhaps this is why you and AnnH also were so adamantly opposing describing Klara as "devout" herself, even though that is how the sources describe her.Drogo Underburrow 20:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The objection is stylistic (which is exactly what he said) because it's repeating effectively the same information twice. DJ Clayworth 20:52, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Stating that Hitler's mother was devout is not saying the same information as that people in the same area were generally Catholic. Both need to be said but especially the latter, as its the most important fact about Hitler's religious upbringing. Hitler was particularly devoted to his mother. Drogo Underburrow 20:58, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We are already in the situation where the section on Hitler's religious beliefs are bigger than the section on the Holocaust. Not everything needs to be said here. It's already been said that there was nothing special about Hitler's upbringing in this regard. DJ Clayworth 21:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Poppycock. If you want to delete material, delete the statement that Hitler grew up in a Catholic area, and simply state that he was raised by a devout Catholic mother, as that is the most important element in his religious upbringing. His father was a distant father, literally, and wasn't even home at times when Hitler was a young child. For example, he was gone for an entire year at one point.Drogo Underburrow 21:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Drogo's remarks. See my comments above. How Hitler was rasied and the beliefs of those who directly raised him and had direct influence on his beliefs and upbringing is far more important than what others beleived in the area (which, if anything needs to be left out for size considerations, it's that).Giovanni33 21:29, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with Gio and Drogo, above.MikaM 04:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that Mika can do no more than agree with Gio since … Str1977 (smile back) 22:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a stylistic objection. If the section is too long, as DJ said (which is a valid objection to sensible editors), the first thing we should delete is repeated stuff. The current version basically says three times that AH's parents were Catholic: first it is implied by his RC upbringing, second it is mentioned excplicitely, and third the stances of both parents are given individually. Str1977 (smile back) 13:30, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Dear Colonel, I basically agree with what you are saying. I also think “my” version, as it oringally stood, was at the same time NPOV, factual, informative and also readable, before it got compromised and still reverted by misinterpretation of WP policy and a POV agenda. Str1977 (smile back) 22:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Objection 2

message: *Refusal to accept the general and standard definition of what a “pracitising Catholic” constitutes. The “confirmation event” is raised to unwarranted prominence (it was an event where his rebellion became obvious, not the cause of the rebellion).
The refusal is a refusal to allow you to engage in original research and state that Hitler was not a practising Catholic, giving no source, or a refusal to allow you to put words in source's mouths. If a source said this, specifically, then quote it. Otherwise, desist. But do not give us your interpretation of what sources meant, and then say they said it; instead show us where they actually said it. Drogo Underburrow 22:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Drogo. Str, if you have a source that says this, then by all means include it. However, you have no such source. It is your POV, which is fine but should not be included in the article. Be happy with the facts as they are known and reported by various sources qualified in this subject matter. You are not allowed to connect the dots and state your own conclusion about the meaning of the facts, esp. when its not clear to me and other editors that your conclusion is valid. As I've said before "not practicing" suggestings a complete abandonment of any and all forms of practice, which we know is not true. Your synthesizing of the facts constitutes original research.Giovanni33 23:39, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Gio and Drogo, above.MikaM 04:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that Mika can do no more than agree with Gio since … Str1977 (smile back) 22:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I have included this source, if you would care to listen. Also, Gio, we don't know that isn't true - in fact all our evidence supports what I wrote: that Hitler ceased to practice the Catholic faith. But maybe you still think, Gio, that saying "Lord" and "Christ" makes one a Catholic. Well, it doesn't. Note that we are talking about "Catholic" and not merely "Christian" or "religious". I know, atheist controversialist have often a hard time seeing such an easy distinction. Not offense, but it is IMHO a sort of illiteracy. But it cannot be the basis for a WP article. Str1977 (smile back)</sup> 14:10, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Colonel, I don’t know whether I have addressed what the two “gentlemen” here talked about or not but what they have done is simply deny the truth of the matter, including the one that there wasn’t any source provided. AnnH provided a dictionary and the catechism, I provided Rissmann who basically says the same (you read a quoted and translated portion in the archives). So we have reliable sources, but Drogo wants to stretch the OR policy to absurd extremes (while turning a blind eye to actual OR violations) while Gio simply holds “what ought not be, cannot be”. Str1977 (smile back) 22:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Objection 5

message: *The misusing of Kershaw does not appear in the current version, so I won’t repeat my objections (noted above) which however remain valid. (This would have been a factual dispute.)
This is not an objection of the current version, hence the point is moot, and why bring it up? (This does not imply agreement that Kershaw was ever "misused".) Drogo Underburrow 22:43, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not do the numbering. This is no objection right now but it used to be one. If you don't bring it up again, we don't need to deel with it. Str1977 (smile back) 14:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dormant Objection

message: *POV pushing by using a blockquote for Hitler’s pro-Christian statements.
:Not all quotes. The block quotes are used only for size. There are some pro-Christian statements where I removed the block quotes from. The block quotes exist for larger quotations, regardless of what they say. Its not POV pushing.Giovanni33 23:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Assuming Good Faith, but I don't believe you, Gio. Str1977 (smile back) 14:16, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The first quotation, "The National Government regards", supports Giovanni's POV, is 42 words long, and is in a block quotation.  The "You see, it's been our misfotune" quotation challenges Giovanni's POV, is 56 words long, and is embedded in the text. Admittedly, it's not as bad as Giovanni's first attempt, which had the twelve-word quotation "I am now as before" in a block quote. At least that was fixed before the article was protected. AnnH ♫ 15:36, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and I fixed it. It was me who removed it from the block quotes format. I say any quotatins that are large should be block quoted, regardless of what it says. I hope this will solve Objection #7.Giovanni33 21:02, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You fixed it after you were told to … still your POV pushing agenda is clear. Ann’s counting makes that clear. We could also shorten the quote or only refer to it, if that were your concern, since it doesn’t give Hitler’s religious belief but what he publically stated (and again, no serious historian disputes my take). Str1977 (smile back) 22:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Objection 7

message: *I protest against (re-)moving the factual reference of Hitler never ending his church membership and what Speer (referenced and disclaimed by “according to…”) had to say about that. – in the current version it is included much further down, hanging “in the air”
:Does your silence mean agreement? Str1977 (smile back) 14:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it means that after spending the time to set up this section so we could reply to your points, which you could have originally done, making it unnecessary for me to have to copy your material and increase the size of the talk page, then responding to some of your points, I had to take a break. Then later, I got involved in an interesting discussion on monotheism. As for this objection, I think its moot, as it only applies if we use the current version as written, and that is unlikely. Drogo Underburrow 19:11, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Drogo’s reply speaks for itself. Str1977 (smile back) 22:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Objection 9

message: *I also reject the following: “In any event, "No matter how much he vituperated against Christianity or the churches, Hitler gave no indication that he was now agnostic or atheistic: He displayed a continued attachment to a belief in God." – The „in any event“ is a unwarranted endorsement. The info warrant inclusion but IMHO should be included at a better place.
Fine, it can be moved. I don't know if prefacing it with “In any event" is a POV endorsement or not, but I'm sure other wording can be found. Why don't you suggest a preferred lead? Drogo Underburrow 22:52, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Its ok with me if we change the wording "in any event" to some other preface, connecting language to the point, but the point should be made as its very clear and well sourced. I do not think that "in any event" is an endorsement, but if you think it is, then we can change it. Make a suggestion.Giovanni33 23:57, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, this should be included at a better place. It is substantial info and should be treated as such, not as a an apologetic tool for atheism. Str1977 (smile back) 14:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Objection 11

message: *“As some branches of liberal Protestantism also had similar views,“ – I always preferred „As Protestantism was more open to such reinterpretations“, as it is problematic to associate liberal Protestantism in general (even if we say some branches) with the unclear „similar views“ (what views exactly?). No one will suspect me of POV pushing on this as I am quite openly not a liberal Protestant. I tried to use a compromise version which included the substance of both, but it just got reverted.
:Does your silence mean agreement? Str1977 (smile back) 14:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, but your posting that question annoys me. Saying "liberal Protestantism" is more specific and more accurate than simply "Protestantism". Drogo Underburrow 19:35, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Drogo, again you’re not addressing the point. “Protestantism was more open …” is more specific than “some branches (which branches) of Liberal Protestantism agrees with these views” (unidentified) – but if you want to include Liberal I don’t object. Also, your annoyance is no valid argument. I am annoyed by this whole discussion with two posters from I haven’t seen a sensible contribution on WP. However, that doesn’t  keep you from posting. Str1977 (smile back) 22:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Objection 12

message: *I object to calling John Toland (which is still linked wrongly) “notable Hitler biographer“, as it is a POV endorsement of him (see above) and also wrong. Kershaw would fit that description, even the now dated Bullock (though I’d still object)
:How about this, it is linked to objection 6.
* Keep out editor's and historian's POV and all you have is facts. If those facts are false, then don't put them there. Colonel Marksman 18:09, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Except, the fundamental rule of Wikipedia, is to report what sources say. This includes their POV's. When reporting a source's POV, you report it as being said by the source, which is a fact. For example, "Though Hitler spoke against traditional Christianity in general, he in fact may have been referring to Catholicism, according to Steigmann-Gall" is a fact; Steigmann-Gall really did say this. Drogo Underburrow 23:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: So again WP’s policy of “no information to dull for printing” – no, wait: that was the London Times thirty years ago. “my version” does very well report what sources say, what serious historical scholarship says, all in a NPOV and readable form. You want to include anything that anyone wrote (unless, of course, it hurts your agenda). Str1977 (smile back) 22:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Objection 13

message: *I also object to the inclusion of Toland’s claim that Hitler was “Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy“, as it is misleading given the facts of the matter. We have already stated (in either version) that Hitler didn’t leave the church but how good his standing was is quite another matter. (FACT)
:Do you claim Toland didn't say it?  This is not a factual dispute, unless you claim that Toland didn't say this. The article doesn't say that Hitler was Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, it says that Toland wrote this. Drogo Underburrow 22:06, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Same as above. You don't have to agree with it, Str1977. That is not your job here to make articles according to what you believe. Our job is to report all POV's, from the reputable scholars who are experts in the field. This includes Toland's claim, which I happen to think is not "misleading" but his educated opinion based on his study of all the facts he wrote about in his well known biography of the man. If you have a reputable source that says otherwise, you are free to cite that source but you can not censor the other POV simply because you don't agree with it.Giovanni33 23:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Much as you like to portray Wikipedia as simply reporting what everyone says, that's not actually the way it works. We have to be selective with who we quote (Drogo and Giovanni, you are being selective whether you admit it or not). The question is, is Toland a good source to quote? It seems to me that this quote flies in the face of much else that is said, and is therefore we can find better quotes. DJ Clayworth 14:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Toland is not a good source for controversial things. He himself said that he was merely trying to narrate facts and not issue a thesis. Now, this is both a naïve view to hold (it is impossible to simply narrate the facts, as much as we historians might try) and also a declaration of bankcruptcy for his book (why read it? I can get the facts from Bullock, Fest or Kershaw too … and more!) Most impotantly, Tolands supposedly uncontroversial book without a thesis is used to put forth a thesis by using a ambiguous sub-clause. Str1977 (smile back) 14:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I disagree. I think we should include all POV's, provided they are POVs clearly stated as POV's, and ofcourse, only if those are POV's articulated by reputable experts in the field. Contrary to what you say, there is a big difference between what our POV's are (which don't matter here), and the respective authorities within academia who are qualified to speak on the matter. Their POV matters. It is not fact, which is fine as long as it says "according to..." This way a reader can get a sense of what the scholars think about the question. The more POV's the better as that gives a sense of the current thinking and consensus of the question. Just leaving it to bare facts will trim it down significantly, but it would be dull. The idea is not to remove all POV, but to make sure its done in a NPOV manner (all POV's) and that the sources for these POV's are up to standards and notable, so they can be included. I have no doubt in my mind that the only reason Str wants this removed is because its a POV he does not agree with. Toland is a notable historian and writer on Adolf Hitler. His view of Hitler's religion and what he reports is valid for inclusion in the article. I oppose censoring his relevant statement. And, for the record, his view is not alone.Giovanni33 21:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree Gio.MikaM 04:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that Mika can do no more than agree with Gio since … Str1977 (smile back) 22:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Colonel, sources and historians play a valid role in this but even historians can write nonsensical statements (see Steigmann). We also should use the best historians and Toland is not among them, while Kershaw is the current pinnacle of Hitler biography. If there is a real dispute between historians we should report on it including all views in a NPOV, but if there is no dispute we give the consensus of historical scholarship. First and foremost however, we are here trying to write an encyclopedia article and not a WHO said WHAT WHEN collection. Str1977 (smile back) 22:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Objection 14

message: *I reject the inclusion of the Lewy quote as it is based on Hitler’s Reichstag speech we already have quoted above. No need to include it twice.
:Does your silence mean agreement? Str1977 (smile back) 14:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No. I looked and I did not see the Lewy quote alrady quoted above. If what I report Lewey quoting, is already quoted then, fine. But, I don't believe you. You can move it and incorporate it with with res of the quote but this quote should remain in the body of the article.Giovanni33 21:20, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gio, are you serious? Yes, the Lewy quote is not in the text because we don’t need it. But Lewy wrote his lines based on what Hitler said in the Reichstag and that is included in the text. Hence, the same info (using the term loosely) included twice. Str1977 (smile back) 22:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Objection 15

message: *"According to historian Richard Steigmann-Gall, much is known about Hitler's views on religion through Hitler's book, Mein Kampf.“ Introduces a whole section of problematic bits. What follows is quotes from Mein Kampf (still unreferenced) which are useful to include. However, this all needs to be integrated into the text (as my version did). Note that this is no section of retelling Mein Kampf or retelling Steinmann-Gall but one devoted to actually giving information about Hitler’s religion. Hence editorial notes explaining how Hitler used this word hat word are out of place.
:* Now before anyone jumps on him, re-read everything he said twice, think about why he thinks this ought to be (he stated why, don't go off making assumptions), and then discuss a section that doesn't retell Steinmann-Gall, but is devoted to giving information about Hitler's religion. If you talk about anything else, or argue any other point, you're either missing his point, off topic, or just plain rude. Colonel Marksman 18:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Objection 16

message: *„Refering to God as the "Lord of Creation" and the necessity of obeying "His" will, show Hitler's Christian thinking“ is also nonsense, as these words contain no particular Christian wordings – a Jew, a Muslim, a Deist could have said the same thing. (FACT)
:That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. That these words show Hitler's Christian thinking is Steigmann-Gall's opinion, and is rightfully reported in the article as being his opinion. This is another case of Str1977's views being contradicted by a sources' view, expressed in the article, so Str1977 reverts the article. This must stop if we are going to get anywhere. Drogo Underburrow 00:51, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Members of other religions could have said it, but they didn't---Hitler said it. Hitler, who was raised a Catholic and continued to profess and demonstrate his Christian thinking in various ways said it. According to Steigmann-Gall this is one way in which Hitler was showing his Christian thinking. I don't find that nonsensical at all. The idea that Hitler could have been talking as a Jew or Muslim--now that would be nonsense (which is why no one says it or thinks such a notion is even plausable). Clearly, the religious beliefs are in the context of the known facts of his religious affiliatoin and membership: Christianity. But whatever you think, whatever I think, or others editors happen think really doesn't matter since this article is not about what we think about Hitler's religious belief. Its about accurately reporting scholarship on the question. That is what this does. Your objection, thus, is without merit as far as this article is concerned. Giovanni33 08:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: That's being unnecessarily obscure Giovanni. Of course if we were already sure that Hitler was a Christian then we would know that he was talking about the Christian God. But since we are not - in fact since that is the whole thing we are trying to decide - we can't use the fact that he used a phrase which could have been said from many different religious viewpoints as evidence that he was a Christian. It's a circular argument. Which is why Str1977 objected to it being cited as evidence, and rightly so. DJ Clayworth 13:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, its being uncessarily obscure to pretend we know nothing of Hitlers religion and have no context for assuming which God he is talking about. Its perfectly clear to me that Hitler was a Christian. All the known facts point to that. That is why, its is very reasonable for this scholar to point to these statment of Hitler as being indicative of his Christian thinking--NOT Muslim or Jewish thinking. And, again, it doesnt matter what Str or you, or I think--its about reporting what academia thinks.Giovanni33 21:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: "Members of other religions could have said it?" – what is other religions? Given the facts, that would include Christianity or at least Catholicism, as Hitler wasn't a Catholic when he said it. And don't play stupid, Drogo, by saying "but Steigmann said it" – these constant controversial statements by Steigmann don't cast a good light on his scholarship. Do I call Giovanni a Stalinist because of his admitted atheism? No because it is a non-sequitur! Str1977 (smile back) 14:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: On the contrary, these statements by Steigmann cast a very good light on his scholarship (from my POV); you are not in a possition to question his scholarhip. It is not impuned in any way. His statments, no matter how much you disagree with them, can not be censored--no matter what you think of them. These are the rules. If you wish to impune his scholarhip then you must do so by using other scholars who say so. This is how we can protect articles from POV pushing and original research. Giovanni33 21:35, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text:  *This is another case of Str1977's views being contradicted by a sources' view, expressed in the article, so Str1977 reverts the article. This must stop if we are going to get anywhere.
* If you knew how to read and consider someone else's say-so, then you wouldn't have said that, I'm sure. Str says that "just because he says "God is Lord of Creation" doesn't mean he's automatically Christian. That is the essence of everything he is trying to say.
* Now, say it out loud with me. "Just because Hitler says God is Lord of Creation does not automatically mean he was Christian." If you want to call that POV, I can take that and find hordes of people that would be happy to block you out of Wikipedia for awhile to let you think about a few things. Like Str says, there are non-Christian beliefs that believe God is Lord of Creation. 
* By you continuously "attacking" Str the way you do, it looks like you're trying to say that Hitler was a Christian and was bad. Str is trying to keep Christianity out of it, and the both of you want neutral points.
* Historians are entitled to their opinion, but opinion is not welcome in Wikipedia, whether it be a historian, Str, me, you, or anyone. Just the facts. It looks like you litter this talk with personal opinion in the essance that anything you say must be absolute.
* Give in a little, listen to what people say, and come back with a good arguement. Gio, don't drool over Drogo's "correctness". Str has a reason for saying these objections, and thus far, none of them are opinion. 
* DJ has some good points. Colonel Marksman 18:58, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Im not drolling, and I don't always agree with Drogo. The fact that I agree with him here is my right given my own independant thinking. Thanks! Also, yes, Hitler was a Christian and he was bad. That is my POV. I'm glad that I have support for this pov within the scholarly community and I want to see that its properly reflected in the article. I have no vested interst to protect Christianity from a bad light as others seem to have. I think the article should report what academics say on the question. Giovanni33 21:27, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Colonel, you are right. Gio is littering the article with anything he thinks useful for hitting Christianity. Gio, if you think that this passage adds no useful info to the section, as your above post seems to imply (when you actually think through your point) then we can always drop it. Str1977 (smile back) 22:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Objection 18

message: *The following paragraph is completely sinking to the level of being a table of contents fort he Steinmann book: „Elsewhere in Mein Kampf, he says, Hitler makes references to Jesus. Other sources also show Hitler's Christian thinking, according to Steigmann-Gall. He notes an unpublished manuscript where Hitler sketched out his world-view, and he gives as an example a speech on April 1922 where Hitler said that Jesus was "the true God". Finally, Steigmann-Gall gives another example where in a private Nazi meeting Hitler again stated the centrality of Jesus' teachings to the Nazi movement.“
:Does your silence mean agreement? Str1977 (smile back) 14:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it means your objection is so incoherent I didn't feel like responding to it. I have no idea what book is the Steinmann book. Nor do I have any idea what exactly you are objecting to. Drogo Underburrow 07:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not my objection that is incoherent but the passage I was objecting to. It is the worst piece of writing imaginable with no value for this article. Str1977 (smile back) 22:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Objection 19

message: *„Hitler's religious beliefs demonstrated the anti-Semitic view that Jesus was an Aryan rather than a Jew“ is both claiming something that hasn’t been demonstrated and also including a highly questionable characterisation: I think to make Jesus an Aryan is both factually wrong and against the core of Christianity (if not Jew, then no Messiah), hence anti-Christian, I can see that it is motivated by anti-Semitism but I can’t see that the view itself is anti-semitic. Anyway, the paragraph adds nothing substantial to the section.
:Does your silence mean agreement? Str1977 (smile back) 14:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it again means I have better things to do than try to sort out your opinions and separate them from legitimate criticisms of the article. You write, "I think to make Jesus an Aryan is both factually wrong and against the core of Christianity". Who cares what you think? You are not a source. It is a fact that Hitler called Jesus an Aryan, and that is all that the sentence is saying, it is not saying that Jesus really was an Aryan. Drogo Underburrow 07:24, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have better things to do as well, Mr Drogo, so let’s just delete the passage. Str1977 (smile back) 22:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Objection 20

message: *As I said, there are in the “Gio/Drogo version” various instances of an unfinished text and I went all the way last week trying to include the Mein Kampf quotes into the text where it fitted best IMHO. My work simply got reverted.
*It contains various violations of NPOV by endorsing certain statements, stating things as facts that are highly debatable or even outright false, putting things into question that are undisputed, rewriting to play down unsuitable facts, highlighting a certain point via technical edits (block quotes) and by repeating it over and over again
:Hallo guys, unfortunately I have to go on Wiki-break for the next two days. I'll be back after that and comment on what has transpired here. Right now I just want to say that I don't understand the vitriol spread by some editors. I want to thank those that responded kindly, even if criticially. Finally, let me point out that I have no objection against keeping the section as short as possible. Yes, this is an encyclopedia article and it should be composed as such. Str1977 (smile back) 11:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Summary