Talk:Hadith of pen and paper

message: >>In another report it is stated that the first person replying, Umar by implication, said that Muhammad was delirious and talking non-sense.<<
Give a reference pertaining to this statement, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it's a Shia's point of view.
Here is the hadith with reference to the delirious statement: "Thursday! And you know not what Thursday is?" After that Ibn 'Abbas wept till the stones on the ground were soaked with his tears. On that I asked Ibn 'Abbas, "What is (about) Thursday?" He said, "When the condition (i.e. health) of Allah's Apostle deteriorated, he said,  'Bring me a bone of scapula, so that I may write something for you after which you will never go astray.' The people differed in their opinions although it was improper to differ in front of a prophet. They said 'What is wrong with him? Do you think he is talking delirious (non sense)? Ask him (to see if he is talking no sense). The Prophet replied, 'Leave me, for I am in a better state than what you are asking me.' Then the Prophet ordered them to do three things saying: ' To Turn out all the pagans from the Arabian Peninsula, show respect to all foreign delegates by giving them gifts as I used to do.' The third order was something beneficial which either Ibn 'Abbas did not mention or he mentioned but I forgot!. 
   °    Sahih al Bukhari Arabic-English Volume 9 hadith number 468 and Volume 4 hadith 393173.28.168.108 (talk) 17:40, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shia POV 

message: Though there is definitely need for improvement in the encyclopedic nature of this page, to remove it wholesale would deprive many users (such as myself) a valuable source of information about a religion we do not know about. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.169.151.18 (talk • contribs).
:Thanks for your message and the PROD will not be re-instated. However, please do read up on the policies of What Wikipedia is not and No Original Research which dictate what is not allowed. If you can improve this article, then please do so as, although it will not be PROD'ed again, it can be taken to Article for Deletion. Thanks. → AA (talk) — 15:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing PROD status 

message: It is important that I make this clarification, the widespread belief of Muhhamed being illiterate is reffering to pre-prophethood life of Muhhamed and not during his message. This is obviously a lengthy topic needing books to clarify due to the large number of fabricated hadiths (or sayings of the prophet). However , it is sufficient to say that Muhhamed, while he may not have been a lettered man , did write and read throughout his prophethood.It is also important to mention that the hadith of the pen and paper is 'mutawtir' , meaning it has been linked as an undeniable event due to its many chains of narration in both sunni and shia books. 98.209.3.180 (talk) 16:13, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muhhamed's literacy 

message: Recent additions do not seem at all trustworthy to me.  They are mostly editor's opinion, and if backed by citation it is only citation to a website whose trustworthiness is questionable.  It seems to me that it would be safer to revert back to the version of 12 June.  If we do that, it would be best to get rid of the bullet point formatting in the section on Shia view, as it is not necessary.
In addition to its many provenance problems, the current version gives undue weight to a minority POV within Islam.--Toddy1 (talk) 21:44, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The current version has all of these problems, which I why I have been adding tags. Edward321 (talk) 22:37, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The editor who is adding this stuff does not seem to understand the difference between a religious primary source making a statement and his/her inference from it.  This set of edits shows the problem.  These inferences by the editor are not allowed under Wikipedia policy.--Toddy1 (talk) 07:25, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  A also agree with this assessment. Edward321 (talk) 13:44, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent additions

message: Page 134 of The Ascent of Society: The Social Imperative in Personal Salvation, by John S. Hatcher, pub Bahai Publishing, 2007,  covers this hadith.  In summary it says that the Koran contains the fundamentals of Islamic law and belief but that these were distorted or perverted after Mohammed's death in part due to the conflicts over succession to spiritual authority and by hadiths (some of which were genuine and some not).  It describes this hadith as follows: "According to Shi'ih belief, as the Prophet Muhammad lay on his deathbed., he asked for pen and paper, presumably to confirm what he had already stated clearly to his followers by the pool of Khum - that Ali was to be his successor in authority; however, Umar objected, saying that with the Koran they had all they needed, and no will was penned.  This began the schism in the wineskin of Islam between the Shi'ih and Sunni."
Since this book is published by Bahai Publishing it may not be entirely neutral.--Toddy1 (talk) 12:57, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: What secondary sources say

message: 1) Literacy: It was the norm in that era for people to call for pen, paper, and a scribe which is probably what the Prophet (S) intended to do. Just as Abu Bakr called for a scribe at the end of his life to dictate his will. (Regardless of whether or not the Prophet (S) was literate.)
2) Is it Shi'a POV that 'Umar said the Prophet (S) is hallucinating? No, it is in many historical sources and there are a lot of explanations from Sunni scholars about why this was actually a good action from 'Umar. Even the commentary of the 1980 edition of Sahih Muslim defends 'Umar's actions.  Please...before just dismissing something as false, actually look at what is said! It is easy to research nowadays. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gamma Draconis (talk • contribs) 11:39, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Literacy and Shia POV 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Hadith of the pen and paper. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120213161050/http://www.schiiten.com:80/backup/AhlelBayt.com/www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/sahabah/pen-and-paper.html to http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBayt.com/www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/sahabah/pen-and-paper.html
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Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 18:25, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'd like to improve the flow of the text, add a few new primary and secondary sources, and expand or clarify the Shia viewpoint in some places. I'll discuss major changes (if any) here on the talk page. Albertatiran (talk) 05:50, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  New edits 

message: I'll hopefully work on this article in the coming weeks to address any POV concerns. Albertatiran (talk) 09:42, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addressing POV concerns