Talk:Ethnic groups in Europe

message: Almost all populations in Europe are native, yet the page says they are all extinct... what? Germans are extinct in Germany? Britons are extinct in Britain? This is a severe case of poor-quality lying. Who are you trying to fool, 3 year olds? Do you think an Irish people will read this and think they are extinct in Ireland or actually immmigrants from Mars?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.162.101.128 (talk) 20:44, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Native European

message: Seemingly there is a significant number of commentators which support the general removal of infobox collages. I think there is a great opportunity to get a general agreement on this matter. It is clear that it has to be a broad consensus, which must involve as many editors as possible, otherwise there is a big risk for this decision to be challenged in the near future. I opened a Request for comment process, hoping that more people will adhere to this proposal. Please comment here. Hahun (talk) 07:10, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal for the deletion of all the galleries of personalities from the articles about ethnic groups 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I need to edit, change and update "by country" paragraph for accuracy. There is a need for removal of some possibly inaccurate and unsourced edits. For example, Frisian-Dominant-speaking (0.01% is too small, unless there are places like islands where Dutch is hardly spoken) in "others" in the Netherlands, and replace it with information on Iranians in the Netherlands, who form among the top 10 ethnic groups in the country. Reference link https://www.internations.org/netherlands-expats/iranians The Netherlands census categorizes South Moluccans apart from Indonesians. http://www.safecom.org.au/dutch-moluccans.htm 
Adinneli (talk) 20:09, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. EvergreenFir (talk) Please  04:18, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 5 March 2016 

message: please change ((Indians)) to ((Indian people|Indians)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:541:4204:7760:60c1:8c8e:217c:cdac (talk) 14:27, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: - by another - Arjayay (talk) 16:58, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indians link 

message: Is the true percentage of Ethnic germans lower than 81% in the form? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nero011 (talk • contribs) 02:32, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:   germans without Immigrant background same as Ethnic germans? 

message: Europe has between 4.5 to 5.5 million American expats, with the highest numbers in the UK, France, Germany, Italy and Switzerland, but they live everywhere in the continent. This is the highest number ever for US citizens and/or descendants in Europe. Many came to the continent to retire, as well those who do business and a few for political, economic or personal reasons finding Europe a better place than the US. 67.49.89.214 (talk) 14:33, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  American (United States) expats in Europe 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Modern ethnic Europeans are a recent and ongoing evolution. The original anatomically modern human migrants to Europe from Africa arrived 40,000 years ago; these prehistoric Europeans were predominantly dark skinned, short of stature, lactose intolerant, and looked dramatically different in comparison to modern Europeans. The genetic lineage of Europe mysteriously transformed about 4,500 years ago, with changes in diet, body size and skin pigmentation, when Central Asian and West Asian migrants arrived with taller height and light skin genes, respectively.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3028813/Europeans-dark-skinned-8-000-years-ago-Pale-complexions-brought-Europe-Near-East-study-claims.htmlhttp://www.livescience.com/28954-ancient-europeans-mysteriously-vanished.html
This entire section needs either removing or re-writing. Especially the first couple of lines which make some outrageous and very offensive as well as vague claims about European history with no evidence to back them up (citation needed, etc) 
The article in the 4th line about Europeans being darked skinned 8000 years ago has also been debunked. 
Please clean up your site and check sources as well as remove content that has no validity but aims to confuse the public who use your site.
thanks. 
Jamesbrensonton (talk) 20:57, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your concerns. If you have a suggestion for the text, please re-open the request. Requests are typically of the format "Change X to Y". While the section may need copyediting, your request as currently phrased is very difficult to act on. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 20:51, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 16 August 2016 

message: At the time of writing the article contains (or contained) a massive amount of tables. I have removed the longer set of these tables, from the Linguistic classifications section, as the information in them should be—and already is—in the separate Languages of Europe article.
I don't really like the look of the other table either, because it takes up a lot of vertical space and interrupts the prose on the page. Maybe it should be moved to the bottom of the page, or moved to a new page entirely (eg. "List of ethnic groups in Europe"). Either way, I've left it alone because its contents are relevant to the article.
-- turdastalk 00:16, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article structure/content improvements 

message: Why do we have 'South Estonian' and 'Rusyn' - both being varieties / kindred languages of Estonian and Ukrainian - while we do not have Low German for Germany and Kashubian for Poland and Occitan for France and Pomor for Russia?
(France does not even have Breton language!) — Preceding unsigned comment added by KKonstantin (talk • contribs) 21:20, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats also my question. Were are this languages? Phillipm0703 (talk) 11:35, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  who selected languages in the "Overview map of the distribution of the major languages of Europe" 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Loving the racism above.  Everyone can be indigenous to a place, except Europeans, who just exist because white skin and oppression or something.  Never mind that Europeans have been taken as slaves by non-European people in even recent human history.  But, if disgusting racism makes you feel better about yourselves, have at it.173.179.145.202 (talk) 18:34, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That is just baseless lies. 88.106.238.93 (talk) 15:25, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I am late, but the article you linked to refers specifically to the United States.  From a broader perspective, the claim that: "Europeans have been taken as slaves by non-European people in even recent human history." is entirely correct.  See: here Rapid Disassembly (talk) 19:19, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Odd Group Out 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: If Basque is there, so should be the Breton language.
Here are examples:
*http://www.eurfedling.org/maps/Languages_Europe.jpg
*https://i2.wp.com/thedockyards.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Languages_of_Europe_map-e1428050358509.png
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Pierebean (talk • contribs) 11:51, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Breton language is missing from the map 

message: Why is this one the outlier, Wikipedia? Are you trying to say that white ethnic groups aren't indigenous to any part of the planet? Did they just coalesce magically from the ether?  Forget about your little "UN definition" loophole, you know damn well that "indigenous" means "came from here originally". Brits are indigenous to Europe. Irish are indigenous to Europe. Germans are indigenous to Europe. Italians are indigenous to Europe. Spaniards are indigenous to Europe. Poles are indigenous to Europe. WHITE PEOPLE ARE INDIGENOUS TO EUROPE. Your rewritings of history will never change actual facts.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C44:5400:8A9:F4C6:26E7:32A4:B487 (talk) 06:47, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Our ancestors were blacks, the 10,000 BC came from Africa. Even a racist IP can not change that. Phillipm0703 (talk) 11:39, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: They were not blacks like the Sub-Saharans that are referred to as that. Europeans, or "white people" and Sub-Saharans, or 'black people', have common ancestry from thousands of years ago, they have gone down different evolutionary paths, one did not give birth to another, a population from a much earlier time gave birth to both of them, and very gradually as-well (considering inter-mixture with archaic humans, multiple migration waves and the time it takes for selection pressures to make extreme effects). If we ignore that, and go by the logic you have applied, we could go even further back, to when Homo Sapiens arose out of East Africa, are not then the Ethiopians and Somalians indigenous to the lands of the Nigerians and Congolese? Are the nations of East Africa then simply indigenous to the whole world? From Europe, to Australia, to Nunavut, Araucania and even Tibet? Where-over the nations that formed there and have long histories, mythologies and ancestry there live? Norigoth (talk) 20:44, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

text: Naturally. WP should really stop pushing this right-wing propaganda that light skin developed through "an evolutionary adaptation to reduced sun exposure at higher latitudes" and tell people the truth. That white people are actually invaders from space who systemically massacred the Paleolithic population of Europe and then settled it for themselves. Dieknon (talk) 07:22, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  White people are indigenous to Europe. 

message: I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that Yiddish, albeit written with the Hebrew alphabet, is a form of German. Settimio Sarpi (talk) 12:56, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Not exactly.  From what I can see, and what little I know of Yiddish, it's sort of an amalgam of German and Hebrew--Vercalos (talk) 20:33, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Yiddish is Germanic, and Indo-European. It has words of semitic origin, but calling it a semitic language is not consistent with it's consensus based classification. I have corrected the information on the page.Paolorausch (talk) 06:05, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Paolorausch, Yes, I see you removed it from the list of Semitic languages in section Linguistic classifications in this edit, I've gone ahead and added to the list of Germanic languages higher in that section; the parent article Languages of Europe claims 600k speakers. Mathglot (talk) 21:15, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yiddish incorrectly classified as Semitic? 

message: Turks must not be concidered neither european nor a native european ethnicity, the genetic admixture of the population the Turkish Republic is heavly related with central asian, iranic, and levantine ethnic groups, making it heavly mixed population and represents a problem to affirm that they are europeans, this is consistent with the statistics of the genetic strains of the Turkish population that show a majority of genetic halogroups not or barely related or present in native european populations, this statistic shows this:
1: about the 15% of turkish population belongs to the R1b group, with the clear distinction that there are two lines, the Western European and the Western Asiatic, wich in the practice those individuals can be easly distinguished into distinct ethnic groups, this can be easly confirmed with the geographical location of Anatolia in relation as the Western Asiatic line, this mean ethnic groups not native from europe,
2: around the 24% belongs to the J2 group that is barely present in eastern-southern europe and have its origins in middle east, Levant, iranian plateau and central asia, wich itself is divided into to two sub-groups both of them (again) in massive connection with native/indigenous middle eastern ethnic groups wich clearly are non-europeans,
3: the 10% presents G group, that is found massively within the Caucasus region, particularly the south of the Caucasus, with their origins in western Asia, not even from european regions of the Caucasus.
4: the rest are just pure non-european, yet diverse Asiatic, and African genetic groups and sub-groups,
Sure there are turkish citizens that have in some degree pre-turquic Anatolian, Greek, Georgian, Circassian and Slavic ancestors, but they are a minority, this issue clearly cannot make the turkish populaton to be concidered as ethnic europeans, this issue represents a mistake, concider the turkish population as ethnic native europeans on the grounds of the existence of an ethnic minority, for an example it's like concider as europeans the whole population of Mexico (130 million) just because 15-20% of them are ethnic europeans, or concider the whole population of Brazil (208 million) as europeans because 47% of them (less than the half) have partial or full european ethnic backgrounds,
another present issue, is that according to laws of that nation, all of them are concidered as part of a so-called "turkish ethnicity" this law forcibly englobes and mix on purpose, Turquic, european, iranian, and levantine ethnic groups as a single "ethnic group" misbased on the notion of a single homogeneous unified culture, based on history, customs, language and belief system, this, heavly supported by politics related to the turkish nationalism and the aspiration to become a member of the EU, when in reality all this represents a problem because none of this elements can be concidered ethnically and culturally linked to the elements of european nation-states,
I suggest that we should define clearly that, Turkish is a nationality and not a real ethnic group in the same way that we understand ethnic groups like Slavic, Italic, Germanic or Iberian, If there is a truly a case of a Turkish ethnic group, should only include real turquic people, wich are neither indigenous nor native europeans, and not include the pre-turkish/ottoman Anatolians, Hellenics, Georgians, Circassians and other indigenous European groups absorbed by the Turkish invasions in Anatolia and Eastern Europe into the ottoman state.
In a few words, i suggest that we must make a clear distinction between european ethnic groups, and non-european ethnic groups that are living inside the current Turkish republic as turkish citizens and not concider Turkish as an etnicity nor Turks as an european population, because they are clearly not one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.138.16.130 (talk) 04:35, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Sir, the article is Ethnic Groups IN Europe. Turks are an ethnic group in Europe.Paolorausch (talk) 06:07, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Turks a native european etnicity?

message: The number of Hungarians is underestimated here with 10 million. Even Wikipedia's very own article puts their number higher than that. If you add up their numbers in Europe, you get to at least 12.5 million.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.182.63.149 (talk) 17:18, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: You are very right, if you consider the lowest estimates, there are at least 12.5 million Hungarians in Europe, but this number can reach even more than 13 million, because many ethnic Hungarians chose not to specify their ethnicity in surrounding countries, fearing the consequences, and we don't have exact numbers of Hungarians working abroad, with emmigration reaching outstanding levels in the past few decades. Zsovar24 (talk) 22:46, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hungarians 

message: Please see: 
*Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2019 January 3#European race
--K.e.coffman (talk) 00:51, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Related RfD discussion 

message: recently proposed the removal of Jewish ethnic groups from the list. The rationale in their edit summary was:
I have reverted these pending changes because the edit appears to be controversial. Please feel free to discuss the removal of this content here. — Newslinger talk 14:19, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Jewish ethnic groups 

message: The article puts the number of Swedes between 10-15 million in Europe, while if you add up the number of ethnic Swedes living in European countries, according to Wikipedia's own article "Swedes", that number doesn't even reach 9 million (c. 8.6 million). Moreover, if you consider the fact, that around 3.2 million inhabitants of Sweden were of a foreign background in 2017, that number goes down to c. 7.6 million. I think this difference of more than 2 million is big enough to get Swedes down from that list. Zsovar24 (talk) 22:55, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Swedes 

message: There is a huge amount of unsourced material in this article. Just because it's an article written as a parent in summary style, or has portions copied from other Wikipedia articles, doesn't absolve this article from the requirements of Wikipedia's verifiablity policy. I've tagged a few sections with  or ; if references are not forthcoming within a reasonable time, any editor should feel free to start removing unsourced content from the article per WP:V. The burden of proof is on the editor adding the information, not on the one removing it.  Mathglot (talk) 21:40, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lots of OR and unsourced material 

message: I've changed the ethnolinguistic group from British to English, as ethnolinguistic seems to imply grouping based solely, or predominantly, on the language, and the various other entries in the table seem to be based entirely on native language speakers (such as Germans, French etc. etc.) within Europe, regardless of politics or self identity. 
The language isn't British so referring to this grouping as British, an explicitly political term with little ethnic bearing, seems even more inaccurate than referring to them as English.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 10:17, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Should also include the 4 million or so native English speakers of the Republic of Ireland, if it is to be consistent with the other entries in the table.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 10:23, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  British to English 

message: I have removed the so-called table of ethnic groups as a rather severe violation of Wiki-policies about original research. The table apparently equated language with ethnicity, claiming (for example) Austrians as Germans, the Flemish as Dutch, the Walloons as French etc. That's nonsense (and rather insulting to many people as well). Moreover, both the groups, the assigned countries and the numbers were put together by Wiki-users. Again, OR applies. Jeppiz (talk) 15:58, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research removed 

message: In the article, it mentions there's a small number of Native Americans, but what about the estimated 50,000 in Germany? Many are members of the US Armed Forces, and the histories of Spain and the UK had Native Americans after western contact by Europeans in the 1500s-1800s.  Germans seem to have strong affection for Native Americans, their histories and cultures, including Adolf Hitler said some historians. 2605:E000:100D:C571:4C1D:EB7D:B365:D7B4 (talk) 07:33, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Native Americans in Europe 

message: The ethnic majority of Switzerland are the Swiss people people, not Germans (the people of Germany). Actually, Germans are a large minority in Switzerland. Swiss people speak their own variants of German, French and Italian, furthermore Romansh. Swiss German is spoken by about two thirds of the Swiss people, predominantly in the North and the East of the country and consists of a group of allemannic dialects. It is used especially in everyday communication and is diffcult to understand for untrained speakers of German Standard German (the commonly used variant in Germany), in formal contexts or written form, Swiss German speakers use Swiss Standard German, which resembles more closely German Standard German. 
Swiss people pride themselves on being a linguistic diverse, but unified nation, so calling a speaker of Swiss German an (ethnic) German, might be understood in such a way that is insinuating völkisch concepts, meaning the German-speaking parts of Switzerland should belong to Germany.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:1A4:9840:71DA:E329:8413:D1FA (talk) 17:38, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  European ethnic groups by sovereign state - Switzerland 

message: Twice already, IPs have changed the claim by Richard Lewis that Uralic originated in the Urali Mountains to claim Lewis says they originated in East Siberia. This is dishonest editing, Lewis never writes that in his book and so we cannot claim that he does. We'll have to require page protection if IPs keep misrepresenting what sources actually say. Jeppiz (talk) 02:37, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry, it was indeed WP:Synth. I have now included the new study below, without changing the Lewis citation. But I do not understand why you removed the whole edit. A simple fix would have been easier.213.162.81.102 (talk) 08:10, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The IP is a sock of WorldCreaterFighter, a well known LTA editing genetic topic pushing a East Asian agenda.195.208.178.74 (talk) 20:54, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The content included by the sock IP is furthermore WP:OR. The first study about Uralic languages does not speak about East Asians or East Asian geneflow, but mentions the arrival of an Siberian component to the Baltic region, possibly linked to the Uralic expansion. This component refers to the "West Siberian hunter gatherers", not East Asians. As we can see above, the IP sock also tried to manipulate other content but was stopped by a careful user . Secondly, the content claimed to be from Reich is WP:OR and WP:Synth. Reich did not said such things, and the modeled components are sublineages of the "West-Eurasian genetic cluster", the human lineage which split from Ancestral East Asians 45,000 years ago soon after the Out of Africa migration. The content is pure WP:POV of the Austrian IP sock of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Long-term_abuse/WorldCreaterFighter, see also this discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Austronesier/sandbox#Woolen_footwear.195.208.178.74 (talk) 09:10, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

text: The second part is still WP:OR after checking again, thus removed. I have worded the first part more neutral. One study not "studies" as example.195.208.178.74 (talk) 14:20, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you clarify as to why this is WP:OR? TheGEICOgecko (talk) 18:47, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: , the Reich paper distinguish these components, but they are all "West-Eurasian" lineages, not as distinct as modern Europeans and Chinese. As such it is WP:OR. At least the editorial from 2018 newspaper (also fails WP:RS in this topic.195.208.178.74 (talk) 19:31, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  The editorial does indeed fail WP:RS, so it should not be considered. Is there a reason from the paper itself for WP:OR to apply, or perhaps from a different reliable source? TheGEICOgecko (talk) 20:29, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  The paper itself is fine. Thank you.195.208.178.74 (talk) 12:30, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: IP introducing factual error

message: I just deleted the whole list for the following reasons: Much of it was unsourced - I put the relevant maintenance template there one month ago, but no sources were added. Also: Even some of the seemingly sourced lines were WP:OR. E.g. the line referring to Germany made the ridiculous assumption that Sorbs and Schleswig-Holstein Danes are ethnic Germans while Germans with one immigrant grandparent are not. The assumption that Basques are ethnic French is similarly ridiculous. The assumption that "White British" form a distinct ethnic group in the UK is equally unsourced. And so on. Feel free to restore a well-sourced list. Rsk6400 (talk) 13:42, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the lack of credible sources is concerning. However, there are plenty of WP:RS within the mix. I believe it worthwhile to update/clean up the section, rather than just disregarding it altogether. Examining the sources case by case (with the intent of removing any WP:OR) may be the more tedious approach, but probably more reasonable compared to a simple blanket delete. I have added an update section template to the paragraph with the hopes that it (along with this discussion) will garner the attention of editors willing to assist. Cheers, Archives908 (talk) 18:18, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Albania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Denmark, France, Germany, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Russia, and Sweden have references. That's 14 out of 44. Of these, the source given for Germany doesn't support the claims, and that for the Netherlands supports only minor claims (I didn't check the other 12). I don't see how that's "plenty of WP:RS". Updating is not the problem. The problem is OR, and my template hasn't attracted any editors for a month now. Rsk6400 (talk) 19:11, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: And your point? Some CN tags have been around for over a decade. Just because sources haven't been added in 30 days, it doesn't mean that they won't, nor does it justify a blanket deletion wherein some sources are present. If sourcing is a concern to you, you have also had a month to help fix it. Alas, Wikipedia is a voluntary project and Rome wasn't built in a day. I can go through the remaining 12 when I have extra time. In terms of adding new ones, hopefully this talk page discussion (which was only just posted today) will draw attention. Archives908 (talk) 20:32, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:V is a core content policy. The material in articles about ethnic groups is often abused to support nationalistic or racist views, so we have to be very careful here. Another problem is that we have very different types of society in Europe. While in some cases (e.g. Latvia), there are mutually exclusive ethnic groups, other cases (e.g. Germany) have less distinctions and the groups are more fluid. I'm going to look at each country individually and remove everything that is badly sourced and also the unsourced lines if they don't seem plausible. Rsk6400 (talk) 13:23, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  European ethnic groups by sovereign state 

message: Three years after tagging it, nothing was done to cite unsourced material, so I've dropped it per WP:Verifiability and WP:BURDEN. Anyone is welcome to restore this material, as long as it is accompanied by valid citations to reliable sources. Please do not restore unsourced content. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 02:31, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Do CN tags expire? I do not believe that is valid enough reason to delete such a plethora of information. Archives908 (talk) 14:55, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dropped stale unsourced material 

message: The linguistic map is missing many languages such as Astur-leonese, Aragonese, Genovese, Lombard, Neapolitan, Galo, Elfdalian, Manx among others. The map is labeled as "major languages" but Asturleonese has a lot more speakers than Ladin, for example, and still it's not on the map.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fueyo222 (talk • contribs) 22:46, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a bit sad to see that you were edit warring twice without ever taking the dispute to the talk page. As far as I can see, neither map is sufficiently sourced, see :File:Simplified Languages of Europe map.svg and :File:Rectified Languages of Europe map.png. I removed both according to WP:V. Rsk6400 (talk) 06:20, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Rsk6400- Let's get the facts straight. Several IP's began removing/replacing maps without explaining why. I merely restored the article to the last stable version. You yourself did the same thing and had every opportunity to start a discussion here, but did not. Regardless, the IP's should have explained their edits, or after being reverted, should have brought their suggestions to talk. After the IP's got nowhere, along came Academic10 who proceeded to replace the map (without any explanation) just as the IP's did. Academic10 then brings the discussion to my personal talk page, which is by far, not the appropriate place for a discussion about this article. Now that we got the timeline of events correct, let's discuss the map. The original simplified version of the map has been updated continually since 2017 and has been a standard on this article for many years. The rectified version, meanwhile, has not been updated since 2015. Academic10, I'm perplexed how you think a map which hasn't been updated in 9 years is more accurate? Your argument that the map is "visually easier" is null since you can't even expand the image on this article. Rsk6400, thank you for finally starting the talk page discussion. However, your removal of the original simplified map lacks justification. I noticed you again restored the map before removing it entirely. I believe you should restore the status quo and then present your arguments here and let's all try and reach a consensus. Agreed? Archives908 (talk) 20:01, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Archives908, you had every right to restore the status quo. But you could also have started this discussion here, especially since Academic10 is a new editor. I didn't see the discussion on your talk page, but you are right in stating that your talk page is the wrong place for it. The reason why I removed the map and don't think it should be restored is that the map itself is not sufficiently sourced. Only the sources for Belarusian, German, Rumansh, Slovenian and Ukrainian are given. But on WP, all information must be verifyable, and this includes the information contained in maps. Rsk6400 (talk) 20:23, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, Rsk6400. I do agree with your concern, however, I believe the map to be sufficient (at least, at the most basic level) and useful in terms of providing a general visualization to readers. Perhaps the map itself can be worked on and improved? It seems that other editors have been trying to actively update it. Therefore, perhaps it would be wise if you restored the status quo and we can tag the image itself requesting additional citations. Thoughts? Archives908 (talk) 21:20, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that "Simplified" has been updated several times may not be a good sign, it could also mean POV pushing, something that frequently happens on Commons (note that I don't say that it really does mean that). If we look e.g. at Alsace and Lorraine, "Simplified" is certainly not up to date and shows a much larger German speaking area than there is in reality. The only solution would be drawing a completely new map from a good, secondary source. Verifiability is a core principle on WP, providing dubious information is not. That's why I think we can't restore an unsourced map, tagged or not. On the other hand - this article is about ethnic groups which in many cases are not identical with language groups (e.g. many ethnic Ukrainians use Russian as their first language) - so a language map is not necessary here, and we should solve the problem of an ethnographic map (newer than 1896) first. Rsk6400 (talk) 08:11, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Linguistic Map missing many languages