Talk:Karate/Archive 2

message: I removed them all.  It made the article too long, and really added nothing to it.  Of course there are styles.  There are styles of teaching, and football and everything else.  I kept the list here in case someone wants to make a new article
I disagree with your decision. While there are styles of teachingand football, styles of karate are essential to an understaning of Karate. There are four styles listed in the article under the label of being "traditional". While they are the only styles recognized by that particular orginization, they are not the only traditional styles. The article now reads in a highly misleading way by implying that they are the only traditional tyles and that the others are all fusions. Indeed, several of the styles listed as traditional in 3.1 are not actually as traditional as some listed below.
===Styles===
Within karate there are presently a multitude of different styles or schools. These include:
(A-Z)
*Chito-ryu ("of the Chinese T'ang dynasty, 1000 years ago")
*Genseiryu
*Goju-ryu ("Hard Soft")
*Go Kan Ryu
*Isshin-ryu
*Kansui-ryu
*Kei Shin Kan
*Kobayashi-ryu
*Koei-Kan ("prosper with happiness")
*Kyokushin
*Matsubayashi-ryu
*Matsumura Motobu
*Matsumura Seito
*Motobu-ryu
*Shindo Jinen Ryu
*Shintora-Kai
*Shito-ryu
*Shobayashi-ryu
*Shorei-Kai ("graceful, flowing, and with peaceful intentions")
*Shorei-Goju-Ryu
*Shorei-ryu
*Shorin-ryu
*Shorinji-ryu("sholin style japan master form wonderfull style")
*Shorinji-ryu("way of sholin")
*Shorinji-ryu India("way of sholin")
*Shotokai
*Shotokan
*Shudokan
*Shukokai ("way for all")
*Taikudo 
*Uechi-ryu
*Wado-kai ("school of peace")
*Wado-ryu ("way of harmony")
*Washinkai ("way of harmony of heart, mind, body and truth)
*Washin-ryu ("way of peace with truth")
Many organizations offer hybrids of karate styles.
RogueNinja 05:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Styles

message: Within karate there are presently a multitude of different styles or schools. These include:
(A-Z)
*Chito-ryu ("of the Chinese T'ang dynasty, 1000 years ago")
*Genseiryu
*Goju-ryu ("Hard Soft")
*Go Kan Ryu
*Isshin-ryu
*Kansui-ryu
*Kei Shin Kan
*Kobayashi-ryu
*Koei-Kan ("prosper with happiness")
*Kyokushin
*Matsubayashi-ryu
*Matsumura Motobu
*Matsumura Seito
*Motobu-ryu
*Shindo Jinen Ryu
*Shintora-Kai
*Shito-ryu
*Shobayashi-ryu
*Shorei-Kai ("graceful, flowing, and with peaceful intentions")
*Shorei-Goju-Ryu
*Shorei-ryu
*Shorin-ryu
*Shorinji-ryu("sholin style japan master form wonderfull style")
*Shorinji-ryu("way of sholin")
*Shorinji-ryu India("way of sholin")
*Shotokai
*Shotokan
*Shudokan
*Shukokai ("way for all")
*Taikudo 
*Uechi-ryu
*Wado-kai ("school of peace")
*Wado-ryu ("way of harmony")
*Washinkai ("way of harmony of heart, mind, body and truth)
*Washin-ryu ("way of peace with truth")
Many organizations offer hybrids of karate styles.
RogueNinja 05:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Styles

message: no reference to oss?
...well?
:Isn't it there under The History of Karate in Japan as 'osu'?. It's a curiousity--I don't object to it being there but I don't feel it's necessary. JJL 19:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  oss 

message: Come on, guys. This opening paragraph is way too long. The Taekwondo article reads beautifully and this article is dissapointing by comparison. I'd recommend some serious trimming/condensing to make it read more fluently.
:The "air hand" discussion could be entirely dropped, to my mind. JJL 17:15, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Way Too Long 

message: I've made the following changes.
1. Consistently writing karate in all lower case letters (except for use in proper names of karate organizations, e.g. World Karate Federation).
2. Consistent use of italics for Japanese non-loanwords and non proper names. See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28Japan-related_articles%29.
3. Proper use of revised Hebon-shiki system of Japanese to English transliteration of Japanese non-loanwords.
4. Corrected a couple of spelling and grammar errors.
5. Removed the sentence "Probably, many so called barefooters and foot fetishism people enjoy practicing Karate for the reason that they are barefoot when in many sports you aren´t." because, frankly, that's just creepy.  If someone can cite something for that statement, then put it back in, but otherwise, please spare us.
6. Decapitalized a lot of other non-proper name Japanese words, including the names of kata.  I debated doing this, and honestly, I think it should be discussed whether the kata names should go back to being capitalized.
In conclusion, I agree with whoever wrote the comment under the heading "Way Too Long," above.  But rather than trimming, necessarily, it is the organization of the article that really needs fixing.  A great deal of the material is repeated in more than one section, and the article overall has history, modern practice, technique, and other subjects mixed amongst each other without a logical order.  Further, many of the paragraphs should be rewritten with better grammar and sentence structure.  I suspect some of the article sections were written by a non-native english writer, which is great - I appreciate their contribution, but the next step needs to be taken where someone refines the ideas expressed.  I'm considering doing it myself shortly - any objections?
Bradford44 15:13, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes (Transliteration, Manual of Style, and a few others)

message: I think this article should contain a small notice about Elvis's karate.
:Any information about Elvis' karate training belongs on the Elvis page, and/or a page for a list of famous people who practiced karate.  Unless Elvis founded his own school of karate that somehow had an effect on the development or propogation of karate as a whole, it doesn't really belong here. I'm sure you can imagine what the page would look like if every famous person that practiced karate had a blurb about them on the karate page.  I don't mean to sound harsh, and I encourage your further participation on this page, but every martial arts style page has had to go through its phase of random famous people who practiced that style getting added to it one at a time.  You should have seen the reverts of the aikido page with Steven Seagal going on and off it constantly :P Bradford44 18:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elvis? 

message: I reorganized the page from scratch, due to its repetitive and confusing presentation.  However, I altered very little of what I moved around, and tried to preserve as much information as possible.  Despite this, there were a few tidbits of information here and there that didn't fit (and maybe were surplusage to the article in the first place), and a few paragraphs I added to tie certain sections together and fill in missing information.  Although I greatly wanted to, I refrained from removing the ever-increasing list of karate styles.  Unless there is an objection, I am going to remove it in five days or so.  Second, a section on self-defense still needs to be written.  As it is, the article is far from perfect, but I hope that what I've changed is an improvement that will spur people to refine the information present, now that it is presented in a much less disorganized manner.Bradford44 18:21, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Massive Reorganization

message: It looks like an anon user removed huge amounts of text, and reordered the page.  I don't necessarily mind, but I don't think such a drastic change should have been done unilaterally, nor do I think all of the deletion is justified without some prior discussion.  It looks like the following sections have been deleted:
*Section on Zen philosophy incorporated into the use of "empty" in karate
*Section on weapons practice as it relates to the use of the word karate to refer to empty handed combat arts
*Several paragraphs that in some way reference the fact that Japan had a nationalistic political climate, and a racist, ethnocentric social climate, during the early part of the twentieth century when karate was developing into its modern form.  The references should remain, because they are relevant to karate's development (at least linguistically), and their removal strikes me as being a NPOV desire to revise an ugly part of history.  Obviously the Japanese had very ethnocentric attitudes immediately prior to WWII, just as the Allies produced disgusting, racist propoganda vilifying the Japanese and Germans during the war.
If there are no objections in five days, I'm going to revert to RogueNinja's edit from about fourteen hours ago. Bradford44 15:09, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, I think I was unclear.  I 100% agreed with removing the list of styles.  I plan to revert to RogueNinja's edit that removed them, not before RogueNinja's edit.  That is, to the edit where the list is removed, but before all of the stuff the anon user removed.  I could not agree more with removing the list of styles, and I'm glad someone finally did.  I only disagree with what was removed by the next user after that.Bradford44 18:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Anon User's deletions

message: I think that the history section should go immediately after the introductory paragraph. Also, this is generally the order that most wikipedia articles seem to follow. Any objections, thoughts?  If not, I'll make the change in a few days.Bradford44 15:13, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Should history section go first?

message: I think that the term "karate" should rarely be used in the history until it has finally came to the point where "ti" has evolved into "karate."
For example, this is confusing: "Matsumura taught his karate to Anko Itosu(1831-1915), among others."
Taught his karate?  Matsumura taught "Karate-no-Sakukawa", or did he teach "Shorin-ryū"?  Saying "karate" makes the reading very confusing.  
Here's another confusing part:  "Early styles of karate are often generalized as Shuri-te, Naha-Te and Tomari-te, ..."
Early styles of karate?  Don't you mean styles of "ti"? 
It'd make reading much easier if these were taken care of somehow.  Just a suggestion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.69.63.254 (talk) 18:01, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Using "karate" confusingly in the History 

message: like this yi:קאראדי to its article in Yiddish wikipedia. thanks--yidi 15:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  please put up yiddish interwiki link 

message: Due to an ongoing edit war on this article, I have protected it for two days.--Jersey Devil 19:57, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Protected

message: In the Kokoro section, a citation is needed for "Karate always begins and ends with rei".
This is Guiding Principle #1 of Gichin Funakoshi's 20 Guiding Principles of Karate. In Japanese, it's "Karate-dō wa rei ni hajimari, rei ni owaru koto o wasuruna." [I have the kanji, but my computer can't enter it]. It has been translated variously:
	Richard Kim: Karate begins with respect and ends with respect.
	Vincent Cruz: Karate begins with courtesy and ends with courtesy.
	John Stevens: Never forget that karate begins and ends with respect.
	John Teramoto: Do not forget that karate-do begins and ends with rei.
I like Richard Kim's translation best. I'd propose re-wording the quote and using him as the source.
This is my first action on wiki so I'm not sure what the procedure is, so I thought I'd just enter the comment and see what happens.
Here are references for all the translations I mentioned.
	Kim: Kim, Richard, The Classical Man, Hamilton, Ontario: Masters Publication (0-920129-01-3), 1982, pp. 103-105.
	Cruz: Cruz, Vincent A, The Twenty Guiding Precepts of Gichin Funakoshi: And other essays on the philosophy of Karate Do, New York: iUniverse (0-595-32139-9), 2004, pp. v-vi.
	Stevens: Stevens, John, Three Budo Masters: Jigoro Kano (Judo); Gichin Funakoshi (Karate); Morihei Ueshiba (Aikido), Tokyo: Kodansha International (4-7700-1852-5), 1995, pp. 82-85.
	Teramoto: Funakoshi Gichin & Genwa Nakasone, John Teramoto (translator from Japanese), The Twenty Guiding Principles of Karate: The Spiritual Legacy of the Master, Tokyo: Kodansha International (4-7700-2796-6), 2003 (Karate-dō Nijukkajo to sono kaishaku, 1938), p. 19.
Patrick McDermott 20:34, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Karate weapons would probably come under Okinawan kobudo --Nate 09:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Karate always begins and ends with rei" Reference 

message: There will be people coming to this page who have never done karate before and want to try it. 
I think it would be worth mentioning the main global karate organisations, I know that WKF is in there but what about WKC and WUKO. What about having something about the lack of a global standard (or even an association standard) for the grading system and the teaching. Different instructor teach different things and have very different levels of quality for reaching black belt status. 
It is hard for people to asses the quality of a Karate club, particularly if they are a beginner. There is no globally recognised assessment system; clubs often rely on the grade, which as I said is not a great measure of the skill. 
I feel like the problems faced by this not only hinders the ability to train in karate at other places, but also the slow speed to adopt Olympic Sport Karate.
138.38.32.82 15:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: These organisations don't really standardise things at a club level though do they? I mean, the WKF has tournament guidelines in place, but they're very specific to sport-karate. I wouldn't like the quality of my club to be judged on how closely it follows WKF standards as we don't practice WKF kumite and we train in the JKA style. Shinji nishizono 00:18, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with karate 

message: This article makes no mention of silat's close relation to karate. We know that Okinawa traded a lot with SE Asia and most of the weapons used in Okinawa were brought from Indonesia. Doesn't anyone know about this? Morinae 09:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can find a valid source (e.g. something you can cite here that other people can check for themselves) then you should add a paragraph on this. I've never heard this before though (and aren't silat's primary weapons the knife and the cane, neither of which are particularly common in okinawan karate?).Shinji nishizono 11:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karate and silat 

message: Okinawan Te draws from Chinese kempo. The current wikki articles about chinese martial arts and kempo say little about the Chinese kempo contributions to karate ( for example, no mention of Wanshu 1683 or Kusanku 1756 or Ryu Ryuko 1874). I would suggest no link to kempo at this time. jmcw 22:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure it needs to say anything about the influence on karate. All it needs to do is link to the article on Chinese martial arts in case anyone wants a definition of that term or to learn more about Chinese arts. I wouldn't, however, link to "kempo" as that term is generally used in the west (and this is en.wikipedia) to refer to specific American martial arts rather than as a generic term for martial arts which is the way Morio Higaonna would be using it. Shinji nishizono 18:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Maybe a disambiguation page for kempo would be useful. Americain Kempo, Chinese kempo, Southern Chinese kempo, White Crane kempo, Five Ancestors kempo would all be interesting. jmcw 19:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karate and Kempo 

message: I came to this encyclopedia to get a "quick" listing of colours. Black is mentioned but where are the others? anon
A quick search pulled a reference from yahoo http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070528120522AAN5CrZ
Best Answer - Chosen By Voters
karate belt colours
    9th Kyu - white
    8th Kyu - yellow
    7th Kyu - orange
    6th Kyu - green
    5th Kyu - blue
    4th Kyu - purple
    3rd Kyu - brown
    2nd Kyu - brown 2
    1st Kyu - brown 3
    1st Dan onwards - black
Would I be correct in thinking this alligns neutral with
* Jyukyu - 10th Kyu
* Kyukyu - 9th Kyu
* Hachikyu - 8th Kyu
* Shichikyu - 7th Kyu
* Rokukyu - 6th Kyu
* Gokyu - 5th Kyu
* Yonkyu - 4th Kyu
* Sankyu - 3rd Kyu
* Nikyu - 2nd Kyu
* Shokyu - 1st Kyu
* Shodan-ho - Probationary Black Belt (1st Dan Ho)
nope I see now it doesn't quite fit. In any case, a general listing of ordered colours would help any peep like myself in future if someone would like to have a bat? anon203.59.189.244 18:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There are no predefined colors for the student belts in Karate, sorry. Every school, sometimes even different dojos within one school, have their own color choices. The only thing in common is that there are 10 student grades, from 10th kyu to 1st. --Cubbi 02:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your answer even though obvious to me. My question is not how many different types of school's or dojo's there are(even though being an encyclopedia of sorts...)but more a generalization of. It would seem only fair that references made to black belts should be removed seeing as no "standard" for karate belt colours was ever implemented, as it were.anon 203.59.189.244 02:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article refers to "color belts" and "black belts", that is correct for all styles. Some styles give their higher dans colorful belts, but they are still referred to as "black belts". --Cubbi 03:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To me it seems that the entire section of Rank either needs to be buffed or ripped. What is common is purely a matter of opinion and not factual enough for entry into wiki anon 203.59.189.244 03:10, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are we looking at the same article? I don't see anything under Rank that is "a matter of opinion" or "not factual", except maybe the "progression of learning" paragraph, which is already duly marked with "citation needed". --Cubbi 03:16, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry if I am not very well understood and I apologize for that. The main article on Rank reads: In traditional schools there are ten ranks of "color belt", referred to as kyu, and five or more dan or "black belt" ranks, with ten being the most common, or eleven if the rank of probational black belt (shodan-ho) is used. It is common for extensive periods of time to be required to pass before being allowed to test for promotion, and Jyudan is frequently awarded only after a notable karateka has passed away. -I hope this makes sense now. Furthermore Tradition has grass roots which should be referenced more appropriately which would also further our understandings if colours were referenced to those schools used in said referenced Rank article. anon 203.59.189.244 03:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Belts 

message: The four tradition schools of karate recognized (by the Federation of All Japan Karatedo Organization) are Shotokan, Shito-ryu, Goju-ryu and Wado-ryu. Goju-ryu to my knowledge has nine ranks of colored belts. Could someone from the other styles confirm the color belt count? Shall we try to find a web reference? jmcw 20:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rank: 'Traditional schools there are ten ranks of "color belt"'