Talk:Super Smash Bros./Archive 3

message: The page was growing larger than the orginal archive, 8 KBs more to be exact, I made into Talk:Super Smash Bros. (series)/Archive 2→041744 22:16, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive 2

message: To continue the previous discussion on whether or not Giga Bowser should be on the Playable Characters list. While I personally think he should be on it but has been decided that he should not be. Of course people are disputing this hence this discussion. The Light6 05:45, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I think that this discussion is not truly if giga bowser should be on the table or not but weather the characters table is for full characters or for the main characters, power ups and final smash attacks. If we include every power up such as giga Bowser, The table Would look like the NPC table with every pokemon and Assist trophy, there are bound to be more Fianl smashs like bowser's, we can't include every character that is just playable for a few seconds(which does not include Zero Suit samus) In the table Can We? What would differentiate full characters from the countless final smashes? That is no way to organize a encyclopedia.→041744 12:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And if it's "fine as it is" only because you don't want to change the list title yourself, i'll be more than happy to edit it in. Oubliette 01:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: It's ridiculous to change something like that just to please a couple people. -Sukecchi 10:40, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: It would make sense. At least we wouldn't have to make this poll over and over. It's not like a proposition to rewrite the entire article. The new section just explains that these characters originated for Smash to the reader. Oubliette 13:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: This is why I say make the current "non-playable character" section slightly more general. I understand the difference between a playable character and a NPC fully - i'm not saying (nor have I ever suggested) that we should combine the two lists. If Giga Bowser can be directly controlled in Brawl but not in Melee, he's still in the game. Having him marked as a ? is only going to be misleading to the reader. It would appear inconsistent with the paragraph format below the initial list, and they will only question why Giga Bowser was excluded from such a list for the sole reason of being "playable" (however temporary). The current list of NPCs includes characters linked together as Smash-themed opponents. Focusing on that instead of the characters being NPCs in the first and second games would not compromise anything. Oubliette 01:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Then why do you have the current list of NPCs in the first place? By your logic, it's easier to remove it and keep the paragraph descriptions. Or do you plan on removing the paragraph format instead, keeping the list of NPCs only? At least Giga Bowser would be up only once. My point is that he's not there (on the list with Master Hand, Sandbag, etc.) at all now. Oubliette 01:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I understand he is considered seperate from Bowser, and that he may have been meant to be playable. If he wasn't, no one would write a whole paragraph about him in the first place. What you said about his logo being different is exactly what I am referring to. This logo that Giga Bowser has confirms that he is of Smash Bros. origin in concept. I am suggesting that we change the list title to that, then put a check next to Giga Bowser as he is a Smash Bros. origin character that makes an appearance in Brawl. No descriptions of characters need to be changed. Oubliette 02:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

text: We agree on Giga Bowser having been meant to be playable. However, what do you feel about changing the section from NPC to Smash Origin? Would stop this whole poll process from ever surfacing again, as these lists that felt it was necessary to include the Hands and the small fry teams acknowledged G-Bowser. Oubliette 03:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To change a section name just to stop a poll from coming up again is pointless. Unless there is really important new information about a NPC, we can just direct questioners to this section either way this turns out. So this wouldn't "surface again" if that's your whole arguement.→041744 12:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Not just that, it's just so that we have to list Giga Bowser once in a list. Also, since he's listed under the Smash Origin category, we wouldn't have to put footnotes detailing that Bowser transforms into him. He's in Melee, playable or not. He's also in Brawl, playable or not. All I want is acknowledgement of it. I also want to know why this method does not "uphold the rules of wikipedia". Would you rather watch these arguments come up on the talk page from different people over and over? Ending the poll is just a byproduct. Oubliette 14:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As of right now, all the NPCs happen to be of "Smash Origin."  What if, in Brawl, it turns out that there are some NPCs from other series.  What if Sonic is in Brawl, but is an NPC?  What if...well, this is all speculation.  Status quo is fine for the NPC section.  My suggestion is that we add a line saying that all of the NPCs are not seen in any other game series.  --Son 14:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

text: That makes little sense. For one thing, Master Hand appears in Kirby and the Amazing Mirror. After he's defeated, the player receives the Smash ability. Also, it's not like we're not going to list Goombas and Koopas as NPCs just to write paragraphs about them, they probably have their own articles. They have no logo, they take a set amount of hit points and then they're dead. The people on the Smash Origin list all have the smash logo, which is meant to detail their origin. Oubliette 15:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

text: But what if there is an NPC that is not of Smash Bros. origin?  Then we would have to change the name of the table back to Non-playable characters, instead of calling it Smash Origin characters.  --Son 16:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An NPC that is not of Smash Bros. origin would likely either have a full moveset programmed, or be an Assist Trophy. I doubt anyone wants to list Assist trophies. If they did have a complete enough moveset, why not just make them playable? Still, are you referring to the Hammer Bro.? He's clearly an enemy from Adventure Mode, but I doubt he'd have a damage percentage or logo emblazoned on the screen. Oubliette 02:44, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not to get off track, but Hammer Bro is an Assist Trophy in Brawl. Disaster KirbyTalk 03:14, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I am fully aware. He appears as an antagonist in The Subspace Emissary. Fox is kicking his hammer back at him. Do you think he's an NPC with a damage percentage? It seems unlikely. Oubliette 03:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, whoops. I forgot about that screenshot. How embarassing. Disaster KirbyTalk 03:44, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: It was just one screenshot of many, it's forgettable. Oubliette 03:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: You're talking about the poll and not my suggestion, right? Oubliette 21:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: of course, if I was talking about your suggestion my comment would be under yours. -Sukecchi 10:46, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Giga Bowser 

message: * Hold it, hold it, hold it, Giga bowser doesn't deserve a spot on the page just because he has yet to be covered on the ssbb website? So if we knew of the "Zero-Suit Samus" name but the website never talked of her as a diffrent character, she wouldn't count as a seperate character? BassxForte 22:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And if it's "fine as it is" only because you don't want to change the list title yourself, i'll be more than happy to edit it in. Oubliette 01:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's ridiculous to change something like that just to please a couple people. -Sukecchi 10:40, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: It would make sense. At least we wouldn't have to make this poll over and over. It's not like a proposition to rewrite the entire article. The new section just explains that these characters originated for Smash to the reader. Oubliette 13:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: This is why I say make the current "non-playable character" section slightly more general. I understand the difference between a playable character and a NPC fully - i'm not saying (nor have I ever suggested) that we should combine the two lists. If Giga Bowser can be directly controlled in Brawl but not in Melee, he's still in the game. Having him marked as a ? is only going to be misleading to the reader. It would appear inconsistent with the paragraph format below the initial list, and they will only question why Giga Bowser was excluded from such a list for the sole reason of being "playable" (however temporary). The current list of NPCs includes characters linked together as Smash-themed opponents. Focusing on that instead of the characters being NPCs in the first and second games would not compromise anything. Oubliette 01:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Then why do you have the current list of NPCs in the first place? By your logic, it's easier to remove it and keep the paragraph descriptions. Or do you plan on removing the paragraph format instead, keeping the list of NPCs only? At least Giga Bowser would be up only once. My point is that he's not there (on the list with Master Hand, Sandbag, etc.) at all now. Oubliette 01:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I understand he is considered seperate from Bowser, and that he may have been meant to be playable. If he wasn't, no one would write a whole paragraph about him in the first place. What you said about his logo being different is exactly what I am referring to. This logo that Giga Bowser has confirms that he is of Smash Bros. origin in concept. I am suggesting that we change the list title to that, then put a check next to Giga Bowser as he is a Smash Bros. origin character that makes an appearance in Brawl. No descriptions of characters need to be changed. Oubliette 02:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

text: We agree on Giga Bowser having been meant to be playable. However, what do you feel about changing the section from NPC to Smash Origin? Would stop this whole poll process from ever surfacing again, as these lists that felt it was necessary to include the Hands and the small fry teams acknowledged G-Bowser. Oubliette 03:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To change a section name just to stop a poll from coming up again is pointless. Unless there is really important new information about a NPC, we can just direct questioners to this section either way this turns out. So this wouldn't "surface again" if that's your whole arguement.→041744 12:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Not just that, it's just so that we have to list Giga Bowser once in a list. Also, since he's listed under the Smash Origin category, we wouldn't have to put footnotes detailing that Bowser transforms into him. He's in Melee, playable or not. He's also in Brawl, playable or not. All I want is acknowledgement of it. I also want to know why this method does not "uphold the rules of wikipedia". Would you rather watch these arguments come up on the talk page from different people over and over? Ending the poll is just a byproduct. Oubliette 14:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As of right now, all the NPCs happen to be of "Smash Origin."  What if, in Brawl, it turns out that there are some NPCs from other series.  What if Sonic is in Brawl, but is an NPC?  What if...well, this is all speculation.  Status quo is fine for the NPC section.  My suggestion is that we add a line saying that all of the NPCs are not seen in any other game series.  --Son 14:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

text: That makes little sense. For one thing, Master Hand appears in Kirby and the Amazing Mirror. After he's defeated, the player receives the Smash ability. Also, it's not like we're not going to list Goombas and Koopas as NPCs just to write paragraphs about them, they probably have their own articles. They have no logo, they take a set amount of hit points and then they're dead. The people on the Smash Origin list all have the smash logo, which is meant to detail their origin. Oubliette 15:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

text: But what if there is an NPC that is not of Smash Bros. origin?  Then we would have to change the name of the table back to Non-playable characters, instead of calling it Smash Origin characters.  --Son 16:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An NPC that is not of Smash Bros. origin would likely either have a full moveset programmed, or be an Assist Trophy. I doubt anyone wants to list Assist trophies. If they did have a complete enough moveset, why not just make them playable? Still, are you referring to the Hammer Bro.? He's clearly an enemy from Adventure Mode, but I doubt he'd have a damage percentage or logo emblazoned on the screen. Oubliette 02:44, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not to get off track, but Hammer Bro is an Assist Trophy in Brawl. Disaster KirbyTalk 03:14, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I am fully aware. He appears as an antagonist in The Subspace Emissary. Fox is kicking his hammer back at him. Do you think he's an NPC with a damage percentage? It seems unlikely. Oubliette 03:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, whoops. I forgot about that screenshot. How embarassing. Disaster KirbyTalk 03:44, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: It was just one screenshot of many, it's forgettable. Oubliette 03:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: You're talking about the poll and not my suggestion, right? Oubliette 21:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: of course, if I was talking about your suggestion my comment would be under yours. -Sukecchi 10:46, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: '''Comments'''

message: I think this page needs to be unlocked so we can add things to it. It is missing some info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyclone1993 (talk • contribs) 22:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It can still be edited by some people. (Me included), so no worries there. Dengarde ► Complaints  22:41, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

text: And...what info? Could you be a bit specific? -Sukecchi 23:15, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't have Peach listed as a character and she has been in pictures. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyclone1993 (talk • contribs) 02:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Peach is only in the FMV, she hasn't appeared in any screenshots of playing the game. When she does, she will be added. -Sukecchi 02:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

text: This was discussed before (see archive 2) and it was decide despite the fact we know she will be in the game we don't know what role or purpose she would serve, although we assume that she will be playable there is no proof saying straight out that she will be playable, so adding her has been held off until it is proven that she is indeed playable such proof would most likely be a character profile on Dojo. Also about unprotecting the article, this article is the subject of numerous bogas edits and vandalism especially by unregistered users so unprotecting it would be a bad idea, also if you looked closely would would have seen that it is only semi-protected "Editing of this article by unregistered or newly registered users is currently disabled" so if you have an account that older then 4 days then you should be able to edit the article. The Light6 06:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unlock 

message: It's just a damn object.  Why isn't Bob-omb featured as a NPC then?  It seems really silly to me to come to this article and see that dumbass sandbag getting an entire paragraph.  (don't be offended by my tone, it's totally toward the sandbag, not at people)Rglong 17:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If I had to guess, it's because no other NPC has a percentage meter.  Don't quote me on that decision though; I wasn't around here back then to see how that consensus ended. Arrowned 17:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Remember, consensus can change. --Son 18:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually, Sandbag is a character. Notice the eyes, the fact that he gets up by himself if knocked down, his percentage meter, and the fact that he's playable via hacking? Sandbag is a character. Bomb-Omb is an item. Dengarde ► Complaints  17:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

text: As I have said before: "sandbag, he does have a symbol(the smash bros. symbol, as with all NPCs in that section) and damage meter, however because his role requires him to be a scingoat, he was given no moveset." And as the comment above has pointed out a Bob-omb is a item like pokemon and assist trophies, with one move or attack and no damge meter. Every character has a damage meter, but since Pokemon Assit trophies and a Bob-ombs have no Damage meter they are not "true" characters by this page's standard. As such they are not on this table. Just because you can't control something doesn't mean that is is a NPC.→041744 19:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 041744 is correct, the only thind which makes sandbag different from the other non-playable characters is the lack of a moveset which is unrequired for its role as 041744 also pointed out. The only reason to say that it doesn't count would be to say that a character requires a moveset to be in the list. While if that were agreed on it would be good enough reason to prevent any pokeball pokemon or assist trophy characters being added to the list the current decision seems to go along the lines of things which are defined by the game as characters and as it is playable through hacking it proves that sandbag was programmed as a character lacking a moveset. The Light6 06:40, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Don't remove him. He has a logo and a damage counter. Oubliette 17:35, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The action replay proves that programming wise he is a character and I believe he does have a few animations eg. getting back up, but as said before because of his role he was giving minimum programming. The Light6 06:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Well he must be alive then!Rglong 23:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah he was obviously meant to be a "character" - and that's why the game freezes if you hack into it with a third party device and try to force it to make sandbag into a "character".Rglong 23:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes he is a character otherwise he would not be playable with hacking devices, also the game doesn't just freeze by using sandbag it freezes when someone tries to do something with sandbag which wasn't programmed and as said already the reason he wasn't programmed with moves is because of his role in the game. However sandbag is capable of jumping and moving around the stage. The Light6 03:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stupid Sandbag is not a character! 

message: No, I'm not saying remove her but there is a little note on the page that you get ZSS when she uses her Final Smash.  Isn't she an actual character?--12.210.228.164 20:38, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No..."you get ZSS when she uses her Final Smash." — Malcolm (talk) 20:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zero Suit Samus 

message: Everyone knows it exists from game.  It's silly thing to leave out.  I would like some explanation.  K^ aka Fooly-Dooly-00000 21:58, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because Metal Mario is caused by an item now. This is going to turn into a Giga Bowser-esque discussion, and I think you should take him off the list until you see what other people think. -Sukecchi 23:14, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seeing as a specific Metal Mario and Metal Luigi have appeared in two of the games so far, I don't see any reason not to include them. If they had just turned it into a random metal character (like they did with the giant battle), there would be no reason to have it, but he has been specifically included in both games. TTN 23:24, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly my thoughts;  So I was wondering why can't we.  Besides, as TTN has said, Metal has been NPC, so it does belong in the list.  K^ aka Fooly-Dooly-00000 00:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This was discussed before but if it has to be discussed again let me point out why he wasn't on there before here and here. The Light6 06:05, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why no Metal Mario? 

message: First off, I think the NPC section is overly long as it is.  Yes, everyone should realize by now how stupid I think the sandbag is, but even if I wasn't anti-sandbag, it's still a lot of info for an incredibly minor character.  Right now the NPCs have more space than almost anything else in the article, and it feels very unbalanced to me.  I think there should be one NPC section divided into a couple paragraphs, one of which would focus on the fact that some characters who were NPCs in previous games, like Metal Mario, Giant DK and Giga Bowser, evolved into temporary states for regular playable characters, general or specific, later on.  Then we could just mention and describe the rest in another paragraph.  It should be a general description of the NPCs and how they are used and/or change with each game.  I don't think we need separate sections for each individual NPC, nor do we need that problematic list of NPCs, since they are all minor to begin with, and I also think it could be a compromise for people who keep fighting over the importance, or lack thereof, of particular NPCs.  Otherwise the whole NPC issue seems too subjective and ambiguous to pin down, which is why I think there is disagreement.Rglong 16:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No offense Bassx, but that comment had absolutely nothing to do with what I proposed.  The gist was that the NPC section is huge, and all those minor characters don't need multiple paragraphs.  The NPC section is too long and complex.Rglong 16:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite NPC

message: There's currently an edit war going on over whether redirect articles should be in the category "Super Smash Bros. fighters". Could anyone comment on the relevant talk page so a consensus could be reached? Thanks. The T 04:41, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirects and Category:Super Smash Bros. fighters 

message: When listing characters with last names (Samus, Fox, Falco) or characters with a title (Princesses, Snake), should they be listed on the page with or without them? I believe they should be listed with the titles, as that is how they are named on the articles they link to.Satoryu 00:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it should be whatever they're called in the game. Remember, continuity is not necessarily preserved between games so for all we know, Falco doesn't have a last name in the SSB universe. Stick to what appears in the game (this would includes trophy descriptions and the like). Axem Titanium 01:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's my concern. On the character select screen, for example, Falco is just known as "Falco." But on his Trophies, his name is given as "Falco Lombardi." The same goes for Fox and Samus. Conversely, the Princesses are just named as "Peach" and "Zelda." I guess we should should go by what the trophies say. Because if we go by the character select screen, Donkey Kong will just be called DK. Satoryu 01:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, trophies are best. The character select screen is less formal so they're probably meant to be nicknames. Axem Titanium 01:57, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Donkey Kong would still be Donkey Kong, because that is what the announcer calls him. I suggest the names remain without the titles, and just stay the way the announcer reads them, since that fits with SSB continuity. The only reason the trophies have the full names is because the trophies fall into their series' respective continuity, which has nothing to do with SSB. -MoldyClay 06:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A good point, but I still think we should leave Fox, Falco, and Samus with their last names. It's more formal that way.Satoryu 16:07, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Hm, I agree that a formal bit might be a good idea, but Smash Bros. isn't exactly a formal game. I mean, sure, they're listed by their full names on the trophies, but the game doesn't use any titles or last names on the character select screen, save for Captain Falcon. Talk about inconsistancy within a game, huh? Disaster KirbyTalk 18:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The trophies are in the game so I don't see how they could fall "into their series' respective continuity". I don't have a particular preference at this point but I wouldn't want the trophy names to be tossed aside for the current reason. Axem Titanium 20:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty much the same in that I don't have a particular preference (although I did switch the list over to the less formal way a short while ago). We should probably wait for more opinions on the matter until we choose a concrete list style. Neither style seems any worse than the other, so it really is mainly a matter of preference. Disaster KirbyTalk 20:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last Names and Titles 

message: I think Luigi is in the game.76.110.82.251 16:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh lol, you didn't happen to see a shop similar to this, did you? Disaster KirbyTalk 16:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

text: While it is true that it wouldn't make sense to leave him out of Brawl, we haven't seen any sign of him yet. Wikipedia isn't the place to make assumptions, so we'll just have to wait until we actually see Luigi on the official site. Disaster KirbyTalk 01:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Luigi

message: I can see on this screenshot, from IGN, that Fox is fighting Hammer Bro. So is Hammer Bro a playable character? I'm not saying he is but just look. Source- http://media.wii.ign.com/media/748/748545/img_4763586.html 76.110.82.251 17:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: [Assist trophy.] Arrowned 17:36, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He's also an enemy in Subspace Emissary. But no, he's not a playable character.Satoryu 17:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hammer Bro as a playable character?