Talk:English draughts

message: I added a Citation Needed to the claim that Draughts is known in the US and Canada simply as "draught". I have never heard the term before for the 22 odd years I've lived in Canada.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.55.116.194 (talk) 06:37, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: As an American citizen of 20 years I've never heard it referred to as anything other than checkers. 24.184.80.24 (talk) 10:09, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, I am from Canada and I agree.  I will change it. Eiad77 (talk) 18:58, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  US and Canada? 

message: there should be a history of da game yuh
i wanna know who invented checkers  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grandtheftwalrus (talk • contribs) 08:05, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure whether they are more reliable than "Criswold," but here are two online, independent sources which claim, along with the rest of the internet as far as I can tell, that it started in 3000 B.C. Iraq (Babylonia) and got superimposed onto a chessboard in the 11th century A.D.:    Research credit goes here.  I'm removing the wiki legend about Abe and will defer to a more informed contributor to decide which sources to use. --Jesdisciple (talk) 07:47, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

text: Yes, you are missing something. The statement is correct. Thank you for not changing what the article in Science said (directly or indirectly), even though you found it odd. The proof did not require a search through all possible positions, although it was misreported this way in a few newspaper articles and this incorrect statement was added and deleted several times. This might help: If I can move to A or B, and show that position A is a draw, then I can conclude that the original position is either a win or a draw for me. I don't have to evaluate position B, or positions which can only be reached through position B. The forward search only evaluated about 10^14 of the 10^21 positions. If they had to evaluate all 10^21 positions, they wouldn't be done yet. 10^21 is much, much greater than 10^14 (contradicting another curious error in an earlier version). 66.30.113.23 06:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for engaging on the subject; unfortunately your example didn't help me. (I'm not the original poster.)  If you can move to A or B, and you can show that A is a draw, why do you have enough information to eliminate the possibility that moving to B would be a loss?  Seems like I can restate your assertion as follows. Suppose I take two boxes and fill each of them with either 1, 2, or 3 beans.  Then I ask you to choose one of the two boxes to open.  If you count 1 bean in the box, how can you conclude that the other box must contain either 1 bean or 2?  How do you eliminate the possibility of 3?  Petershank (talk) 22:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll try to give a more complete explanation.  Let's say we are evaluating position P, in which Red has two possible moves, A and B.  We prove by exhaustive search that A leads to a draw, given perfect play by both sides.  Now let's look at B: Black has several possible responses, but the very first one we look at - call it C - also leads to a draw.  That immediately tells us that Red can do no better than draw (and may actually lose) with B.  It isn't necessary to evaluate Black's remaining options against B, because Red may as well play A every time.  Therefore, position P is a provable draw. 155.104.37.17 (talk) 21:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Very illogical. But that might because you're using a principle to make your evaluation, s principle you forgot to state. Otherwise, your statement seems like a massive assumption. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 22:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Here’s an analogy that might help. Imagine you are playing a card game where you have three cards on your left and three on your right. Your opponent also has three and three. You need to play one card to win the game. Your card has to be higher than the one card your opponent will play. If you play from your left, your opponent must also play from that side (his right). On your left, you have a King, Jack and a Five. On that side your opponent has a King, Nine and Three. Since you can see his cards, you know that you must play the King, obviously he will play his King and the game ends in a draw. Now you look at your cards on the right side. You have a Queen, Seven and Six. However you can’t see all your opponents cards on that side. You can only see one of the three but it is a Queen! Guess what … you know that since he can match your best card on that side, he will draw with you for certain … OR he might even have a higher card and win the game. You know you can’t win on that side so why would you play a card on that side. Obviously you play the King on the left side to avoid the only other possibility, a loss. So it doesn’t matter that you can’t see all the your opponents cards on your right side. If you play that side it can only be a draw or a loss. Don’t do it! Jagy2k (talk) 07:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

text: done. Andries 08:48, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't English Draughts the actual game of draughts, and what's called international draughts here is a different subversion? That's what I've learnt, anyway. AkiShinji 14:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of the Game 

message: Section "Rules" states that no draw is possible, section "Computational complexity" states that a certain tournament opening is a draw.
So which is true?
141.252.27.113 09:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Draw 

message: I was looking for a ruling on the board orientation, but didn't find it.
There should be a mention that the board:
consists of two contrasting colors;
the men are placed on the darker color; 
and each player should have a dark square in his nearest left corner.
 
timbabwe 18:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Board Layout 

message: It's inclear wheather English draughts have flyong kings or not. Article abuot international draughts statrs that the rules are similar except in int draughts piecs can capture backvards. But in int draughts there is flying kings. So something is incorrect  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.63.128.150 (talk) 06:48, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When I win it say I lose, don’t understand. Also thr mystery checker that suddenly appears. 72.85.163.241 (talk) 00:27, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flying kings 

message: I know the English hate any Americanization at Wikipedia, but seeing as the Dutch article calls this variant Checkers would a move be acceptable? At present "checkers" has no article and only exists as a redirect. I think there are many North Americans who are only vaguely aware it's also called "English draughts."--T. Anthony (talk) 08:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree.  The Draughts article has an unambiguous beginning: "Draughts is a group of abstract strategy board games between two players which involve .... The most popular forms are international draughts, played on a 10×10 board, followed by English draughts, also called American checkers that is played on an 8×8 board, but there are many other variants".  It continues with the characteristics common to all variants, and then describes the variants. The English Draughts article is definitely robust enough to stand on its own as an encyclopedic description of this one (very popular) variant. Petershank (talk) 21:45, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move question 

message: This article needs to tell how the squares are numbered, and how moves are recorded.  Bubba73 (talk), 18:52, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  numbering of the squares 

message: One sentence says "[A common misconception is] that the game ends in a draw when a player has no legal move but still pieces remaining (true in chess but not in draughts; see stalemate)", while another sentence says "A player wins by capturing all of the opposing player's pieces, or by leaving the opposing player with no legal moves.". So which is it? When a player has no legal moves, do they lose or is it a stalemate?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.177.113.133 (talk) 22:46, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No contradiction there.  The first quote states that it is not a draw, the second is more specific in that it states that it is a win for the opponent.210.1.215.46 (talk) 05:55, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: I found a contradiction

message: Currently, checkers redirects to this page, I think that checkes should be the title and english draughts should be one of the names mentioned, inverse of how it is now.
--Ipatrol (talk) 22:27, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? 82.35.233.76 (talk) 11:31, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

text: "Draughts" gets 1,640,000 results on Google. "Checkers" gets 9,120,000. (DT29 (talk) 01:43, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think calling this article "American checkers" probably does make as much sense, maybe more, than calling it English draughts. Although I believe "English draughts" is the older term and we usually go for the initial name of an article.--T. Anthony (talk) 00:01, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

text: If we are going with the older term, lets call it Alquerque. =) I agree with DT29.  Try googling 'checkers "board game"' vs 'draughts "board game"', checkers is 10x more common. --Zojj tc 16:22, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Checkers and draughts: naming issue 

message: This sentence makes no sense to me: "Most commonly, the board alternates between red and black opponent are captured by jumping over them."  Can anybody detect what the subject and predicate are?
:The horse raced past the barn fell? 74.94.21.101 (talk) 14:14, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Grammar

message: Under "four common misconceptions" it says that Kings act the same as other pieces but can move forwards and backwards.  This means either that (1) this is not true, and there is something else unusual about a King, or (2) this is true, but many players grant additional abnormalities to the King.  Either way, please rephrase this point so there is no confusion, and if there is an additional pointer about what Kings can do, please point it out.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kilyle (talk • contribs) 16:27, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Kings

message: Should we add a history section? It would seem appropriate. Lord Seth (talk) 23:57, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, we really do need a history of this wonderful game. --96.233.89.84 (talk) 03:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: An uncrowned piece can only jump diagonally forwards, but a king can also jump diagonally backwards but only one space. What does it mean by a king can only jump only one space? A jump must be two diagonal spaces each time.--Mikespedia (talk) 05:55, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suspicious content 

message: There's indeed a contradiction in the article. A win is when opponent has "no legal moves", a draw is when an opponent is "unable to move". Is there a difference? See also the English Draughts Association | Rules, there are more specific conditions for a draw. Gil_mo (talk) 19:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Draw vs. Win 

message: I don't mean to be picky, but I know the game as "checkers," a name not given in the opening list of names.211.225.30.91 (talk) 06:26, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It was removed in this edit : http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=English_draughts&action=historysubmit&diff=434309343&oldid=434307821 but i guess that could be reverted and some references be added. -Koppapa (talk) 06:37, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

text: I'm still open to renaming this article "American checkers" or "Straight checkers" myself.--T. Anthony (talk) 10:15, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The lede says it is "more commonly known as checkers", so wouldn't WP:COMMONNAME apply? 99.146.121.1 (talk) 08:02, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The change to "more commonly known as..." is fairly recent and was not justified - ie where is it more commonly known as?  Certainly not where I come from 122.106.177.130 (talk) 03:03, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, going by google results, it seems to be true. A search for "checkers" excluding the sports team and the names of several companies, one still gets about 100 million results, while the word "draughts", even without "English" added, gives about 3 million. The 6 sources the article has all use the name Checkers. Only one of the external links uses the other name. I, personally, never heard the draughts name before coming here. 99.146.121.1 (talk) 08:32, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm English, and I know the game as "draughts" - I've never heard it described as "English draughts" ever. I think renaming this article to simply Checkers (not "American Checkers") would be perfectly acceptable, most, if not all, British English speakers are aware of this name. LukeSurl t c 14:04, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Shouldn't it be merged with Draughts then? -DePiep (talk) 18:24, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: As a qualifier my earlier comment, I wasn't aware of the huge variety of other forms of draughts at the time. It looks like the different forms are sufficiently different to merit their own articles, so I guess one of the two "technical" names (English draughts or American checkers) is required here. This case seems similar to how we have the Football article addressing all codes of football, and then separate pages for association football and American football etc. LukeSurl t c 19:23, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: it should come together in Checkers (disambiguation), and Draughts (disambiguation) and from there split correctly, but it looks like there is confusion there too. -DePiep (talk) 12:56, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name of the Game 

message: If a piece becomes a king from jumping the opponents pieces then it has an available backwards jump after it becomes a king, is it supposed to continue jumping after it becomes a king in the same turn? Blackbombchu (talk) 02:50, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The text is there, under "Kings" sec (not Move rules sec) ("If a player's piece jumps into the kings' row, the current move terminates".) So I've make the "Kings" sec a subsec of the Move rules sec. (Does that seem ok?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 03:25, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes since it says it somewhere in the article. Blackbombchu (talk) 21:22, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incomplete information in Move rules section 

message: Draughts? If not, how is it different? If so, should they be combined and one redirected to the other?
Seems ... redundant?
50.53.112.10 (talk) 23:43, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, yeah it is a duplicate. -Koppapa (talk) 05:40, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this a duplicate article to "Draughts"? 

message: The section on 'Notation' uses the term 'double-corner', but as far as I can see this is the only use of the term in the article, and it's meaning is not explained.  I noticed this because I saw the term 'double corner' somewhere else, also unexplained, and Googled it to find out what it means.  It is presumably one of those things which 'everyone knows' but no-one ever bothers to explain, which appear to be common in articles about games.2A00:23C8:7907:4B01:6434:5525:133D:1514 (talk) 17:42, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: [Added]  I now see that the online Merriam-Webster gives a definition:  "one of the two diagonally opposed corners of a checkerboard that have a light square flanked by two dark playing squares".  If this is correct, someone might add it into the article.  It also ought to be stated whether there is any definite rule on the position of the 'double corner', as there is in chess.2A00:23C8:7907:4B01:6434:5525:133D:1514 (talk) 17:48, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meaning of Double-corner