Talk:Architecture of Russia/Archive 2

message: : This article is not suitable as an encyclopaedia article, as it is in violation of Wikipedia's Neutral Point Of View (NPOV) policy, and is written in a very non-encyclopaedic tone. In addition if it's from a website, it might be a copyright violation. Please do something to address these problems, or the article might be deleted as per Wikipedia's deletion policy. - ulayiti (talk) 18:46, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Problems with the article

message: Whilst I not going to get myself involved in your (to be fair quite pathetic) arguments. I would like to give the following site with excellent photos of Orthodox architecure for those who are intersted in cotributing professional information: http://www.sobory.ru/
-- Kuban kazak 15:32, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bepassing the dispute 

message: I went to the library this afternoon and had a look at the following books:
* (2003) Entry "Architecture: Kievan Rus and Russia" in Encyclopædia Britannica (Macropedia) vol. 13, 15th ed., p. 921.
: The article is "Architecture", the section is called "Kievan Rus and Russia".  The state is referred to as Kievan Rus, but the churches of Rus are referred to in aggregate as "Russian ecclesiastical architecture".
* William Craft Brumfield ([1993] 2004). A History of Russian Architecture, Seattle and London: University of Washington Press. .
: Nice book, with photographs by the author.  The subject is referred to in the text as "medieval Russian architecture", but the people and state of the period are called "eastern Slavs", and note "medieval Rus and subsequently Russia".
* John Fleming, Hugh Honour, Nikolaus Pevsner ([1966] 1998). Entry "Russian Architecture" in The Penguin Dictionary of Architecture and Landscape Architecture, 5th ed., pp. 493–498, London: Penguin. .
: Under the entry "Russian Architecture".  References to the subject and period in general are "Russia", "the Old Russian state", "Kievan Russia", "Transfiguration Cathedral at Chernigov (c. 1036) . . . and all other Old Russian churches . . . [including Santa Sophia]", but Kievan Rus’ specifically is called "Kiev", also "the Kiev Prince".  Polotsk and Smolensk are in "west Russian lands".  Later references are to "Moscow's domination of Russia", "Muscovite architecture".
: (Interesting quote about the Baroque period: ". . . Ukrainian Baroque has its own characteristics, however, and stylistically the interaction with Muscovy is less significant than was once thought.")
I would classify these all as post-Soviet editions of earlier writing.  They seem to know that Kievan Rus’ is not the same thing as Russia, and refer to the state as Rus or Kiev, although it is also referred to descriptively as "medieval Russia".  Russia is used for the name of later states, but in all three sources the architecture of Rus belongs firmly within the subject of Russian architecture. There is no subdivision of Rus architecture into Belarusian, Russian, or Ukrainian.
In the next day or two I'll propose some revisions to the article based on this, if someone else hasn't done so already.  —Michael Z. 2005-11-21 00:08 Z
:Nice job. Thanks. --Ghirlandajo 00:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes!!! Of course!--Nixer 01:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Readings 

message: I propose that this article has some radical changes. The truth is that like History of Russia, it is impossible to generalise everything into one article without having seprate articles reflecting each phase. In Russian architecture there are clear break-ups. THis site here  has a feature were one can actually search through the dates when each building was built. We might be also able to obtain copyrights for several images if lucky. I propose the following strucutre:
A general page (which this article can provide) Then about individual subarticles describing the individual phases of history. Now for those nationally conscious little people, there should destinct and separate subarticles for periods of history for your phase. 
*So this is what we get:
:#Three general articles (maybe more) Architectures of Russia, Belarus, Ukraine
:#Broken into phases of history:
::#Kievan Rus
::#Grand Duchy of Lithuania/Halych/Muscouvian Rus (and their respecive styles)
::#Polish Lithuanian Boroque/Ukrainian Boroque/Muscovian Boroque
::#...and so on
::#Stalinist Architecutre 
::#Post-Stalinist Soviet architecture
::#Late Soviet Architecture
::#Modern Architecture of Ukraine/Russia/Belarus
:#Each subarticle talks about decorative features, Churches, Fortifications, Palaces, Terema and so on...
Here is some info on styles 
--Kuban Cossack 22:23, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: My proposal for the future of the article

message: Lets try, to resolve the dispute by mediation. To see how many people agree to participate, please add your name below.--AndriyK 08:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Archives and talk above show extensive mediation, discussion and the article has been at RfC which brought many more users here who added their valauble comments which still didn't satisfy AndriyK. The user can't "mediate" until he achieves the his sole goal that it the results he wants. I don't object to the mediation if it is based on the new arguments, not the ones already discussed and rejected as per sources, multiple comments and the vote. Just prolonging the dispute in the hope to tire the opponents when there is nothing new to say is disruptive. I suggest Mbuk reads the discussion and archives. --Irpen 21:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation? 

message: #AndriyK 08:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I would like to resolve the dispute and will particpate in the mediation process

message: #This dispute is settled. Provalivay svidomyi Kuban Cossack  16:42, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: Please note that nobody calls the architecture of Kievan Rus "Ukrainian architecture". Therefore whether Ukraine existed that time or not is completely irrelevant to the dispute. I removed "and Ukraine" from the tag text not because it's wrong but because  it is irrelevant.
Moreover, the tag is there to point out our disagreement. We preserve the article in the form that you prefer, then the tag should be in the form that we prefer. We can do it vice versa, if you like.--AndriyK 08:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't you start an article Ukrainian architecture, where you can amongst others describe the structures that were built by ancestors of the present-day Greeks and Ukrainians in Kievan Rus (i.e. hundreds years before Ukraine was created) and located in present-day Ukraine as if they were "Ukrainian". --Tēlex 12:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because I respect WP policies, in particular, WP:NPOV and WP:NOT.--AndriyK 12:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes tell us about your respect for policies, how many articles did you move and locked the re-directs? Or how you vote frauded two Ruthenian (not Ukrainian as that country did not exist at the time) Chernigov Princes? Or what about the 600-revert St. Vladimir's Cathedral? Or the massive POV in Holodomor that you helped your tezka to push through. After all that do expect anyone to take you seriously? IMO - pathetic... --Kuban Cossack  17:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The message from Kuban Kazak wich is not related to RA is moved to AndriyK's talk. This page is reserved for discussing the articles. If you would like to discuss user's activity, please use the user's talk page.--Mbuk 21:05, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits of the tag text by [[User:Telex]] 

message: I was surprised to read in the "Modern Russia" section that: 'there was no control over how high new buildings should be'. Is this really true that there are no regulations as the the height of the buildings in Russia ? Can this be verified that Moscow indeed  does not have an equivalent of a city architect office and there are no building planning regulations ? --Lysytalk 15:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it is not at all like that, but the new high rise skyscrapers have recentely created numberous scandals. Here is am emporis link , I assume that should be there somewhere. --Kuban Cossack  16:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No regulations in modern Russia ? 

message: Has an RfA or an RfC been filed for this article at anytime?
TruthCrusader 09:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been one of the articles in question here: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Irpen. --Elonka 19:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article's RfC has been filed, comments were made and were accounted for (see talk and archives). That notwithstanding, everyone is invited to that user RfC. --Irpen 20:08, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think Irpen is referring to this RfC from December 2005, which brought some comments in to the article's talk page: Talk:Russian_architecture/Archive#Responding_to_request_for_comment.  There was also a poll on whether or not certain types of architecture should be included in the category of "Russian" architecture, though there seems to have been some disagreement on the exact wording of the poll's question and whether or not it was the right thing to even be voting on.  I'm not sure if the poll's opponents suggested alternate wording (there's a lot of info there). --Elonka 00:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This situation 

message: I think the present version (of 09:53, 5 July 2006) is a reasonable compromise. If somebody disagree, please discuss it in the talk instead of immediate revert. You may also consider adding a tag to the present version if you find it unnneutral.--AndriyK 09:57, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Blanking is no compromise, why not write Ukrainian Architecture and then return to this one? --Kuban Cossack  11:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Compromise version 

message: Thus far the article is purely about monumental architecture.  There nothing about vernacular architecture.  That is suprising considering that most people don't live or work in monuments!  --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 00:53, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  A yawing gap 

message: I have remove part of this from the article Renaissance architecture because it was much longer than the brief paragraphs on every other country. It should be incorporated into this article. I will make a link. I observe that the section on this period is very scant when it comes to the names of known architects. This needs to be remedied. 
====Russia==== 
Prince Ivan III introduced Renaissance architecture to Russia by inviting a number of architects from Italy, who brought new construction techniques and some Renaissance style elements with them, while in general following the traditional designs of the Russian architecture. In 1475 the Bolognese architect Aristotele Fioravanti came to rebuild the Cathedral of the Dormition in the Moscow Kremlin, damaged in an earthquake. Fioravanti was given the 12th-century Vladimir Cathedral as a model, and produced a design combining traditional Russian style with a Renaissance sense of spaciousness, proportion and symmetry.
In 1485 Ivan III commissioned the building of a royal Terem Palace within the Kremlin, with Aloisio da Milano being the architect of the first three floors. Aloisio da Milano, as well as the other Italian architects, also greatly contributed to the construction of the Kremlin walls and towers. The small banqueting hall of the Russian Tsars, called the Palace of Facets because of its facetted upper story, is the work of two Italians, Marco Ruffo and Pietro Solario, and shows a more Italian style. In 1505, an Italian known in Russia as Aleviz Novyi or Aleviz Fryazin arrived in Moscow. He may have been the Venetian sculptor, Alevisio Lamberti da Montagne. He built 12 churches for Ivan III, including the Cathedral of the Archangel, a building remarkable for the successful blending of Russian tradition, Orthodox requirements and Renaissance style. It is believed that the Cathedral of the Metropolitan Peter in Vysokopetrovsky Monastery, another work of Aleviz Novyi, later served as an inspiration for the so called octagon-on-tetragon architectural form in the Moscow Baroque of the late 17th century.
Between the early 16th and the late 17th centuries, however, an original tradition of stone tented roof architecture had been developed in Russia. It was quite unique and different from the contemporary Renaissance architecture elsewhere in Europe, though some researches call that style 'Russian Gothic' and compare it with the European Gothic architecture of the earlier period. The Italians, with their advanced technology, may have influenced the appearance of the stone tented roof in Russia (the wooden tents were known in Russia and Europe long before). According to one hypothesis, an Italian architect called Petrok Maly may have been an author of the Ascension Church in Kolomenskoye, one of the earliest and most prominent tented roof churches.
Amandajm (talk) 09:08, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Renaissance architecture in Russia

message: Prince Ivan III introduced Renaissance architecture to Russia by inviting a number of architects from Italy, who brought new construction techniques and some Renaissance style elements with them, while in general following the traditional designs of the Russian architecture. In 1475 the Bolognese architect Aristotele Fioravanti came to rebuild the Cathedral of the Dormition in the Moscow Kremlin, damaged in an earthquake. Fioravanti was given the 12th-century Vladimir Cathedral as a model, and produced a design combining traditional Russian style with a Renaissance sense of spaciousness, proportion and symmetry.
In 1485 Ivan III commissioned the building of a royal Terem Palace within the Kremlin, with Aloisio da Milano being the architect of the first three floors. Aloisio da Milano, as well as the other Italian architects, also greatly contributed to the construction of the Kremlin walls and towers. The small banqueting hall of the Russian Tsars, called the Palace of Facets because of its facetted upper story, is the work of two Italians, Marco Ruffo and Pietro Solario, and shows a more Italian style. In 1505, an Italian known in Russia as Aleviz Novyi or Aleviz Fryazin arrived in Moscow. He may have been the Venetian sculptor, Alevisio Lamberti da Montagne. He built 12 churches for Ivan III, including the Cathedral of the Archangel, a building remarkable for the successful blending of Russian tradition, Orthodox requirements and Renaissance style. It is believed that the Cathedral of the Metropolitan Peter in Vysokopetrovsky Monastery, another work of Aleviz Novyi, later served as an inspiration for the so called octagon-on-tetragon architectural form in the Moscow Baroque of the late 17th century.
Between the early 16th and the late 17th centuries, however, an original tradition of stone tented roof architecture had been developed in Russia. It was quite unique and different from the contemporary Renaissance architecture elsewhere in Europe, though some researches call that style 'Russian Gothic' and compare it with the European Gothic architecture of the earlier period. The Italians, with their advanced technology, may have influenced the appearance of the stone tented roof in Russia (the wooden tents were known in Russia and Europe long before). According to one hypothesis, an Italian architect called Petrok Maly may have been an author of the Ascension Church in Kolomenskoye, one of the earliest and most prominent tented roof churches.
Amandajm (talk) 09:08, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Russia''