Talk:Anarchism and nationalism

message: I'm a little worried that this might be construed as unreliably sourced or as original research. However, my sources are objectively 'out there' (even if they are rather hard to get hold of these days -- and for all I know, I may possess the only surviving copies of Black Ram) and I don't think simply summarising their stated positions counts as original research. Secondly, reliable and authoritative primary sources about the positions of a political movement (however obscure) are surely the published literature of the movement itself, not necessarily some academic journal of political analysis. So I have (boldly!) added this material on Alternative Socialism and Black Ram, because I think it deserves to be clarified that far-right and black nationalisms are not the only varieties of anarcho-nationalism in town.
Exact references will be inserted as soon as I dig them out of my archives. But I think the data that I have added here does make clear that there have been currents of nationalist anarchism which are not connected with either National-Anarchism or Black Anarchism and would appear to pre-date both. This is sufficient reason to maintain 'Nationalist Anarchism' as a separate article with a broader subject matter or, if they are merged, to incorporate National Anarchism as a subsection of it. 172.141.198.21 02:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alternative Socialism and Black Ram

message: This may have been coined twice and needed further explanation, which I'm putting in a footnote for now, but I might incorporate it into the main text later on, after I've reorganised the article (it could do with broader historical context and a properly chronological ordering). I'm certain about the usage in Black Ram but I'm not so clear about the term's more recent history so please elaborate if you can. Gnostrat 01:15, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Origin of the term 'anarcho-nationalism'

message: In one of the sections there is a mention of "black input." Does that mean black people, or does it refer to some political in-group term? That should be made clear in the article. Spylab 12:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The reference was to black people, and it was a hang-over from a previous version of the article in which it was immediately preceded by Black anarchism. In the present context it looks a little pointless so I've removed it. Gnostrat 17:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Please clarify term

message: ::one edit i've noticed that i'm going to revert, however, is the new quote added to the section on chinese anarchism is misleading, and taken out of context  Anarchists were involved in the KMT long before communism was even heard of in China, it was anarchists that introduced their communist "comrades" into the kmt(!), only to brutally suppressed by those erstwhile comrades.  it's true that after the suppression of the communists many anarchists who had previously declined to be involved with the nationalists became more open to the idea, but it was not at all the genesis of their involvement.  Dirliks book, which is being cited, actually goes into quite a bit of depth on this history.  Anarchocelt 10:31, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have restored the quote and certainly we should show howthe sense of opportunism was just asprevalent amongst the anarchists who migrated to bolshevism as amongst those who remained rooted in anarchism.Harrypotter 11:29, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  harry, could you provide a page number for that quote as per referencing guidlines?  i've got the book sitting on my shelf and i'd like to look it up.  also, while i appreciate that you may well have a personal interest in exposing "opportunism", please keep in mind that the purpose of this article is to illustrate connections between anarchism and nationalism, not expose opportunism or any other pov agenda.  thanks Anarchocelt 02:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  as no page number has been forthcoming I am going to delete the quote until one is provided.  21:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Anarchism and Nationalism in China

message: As I've pointed out, the division into 'historical' and 'modern' sections is artificial. I'm going to remove them but leave a rough chronological ordering, for now. In the longer term, we might think about whether some other arrangement is more natural, e.g left/right or by geography or culture.
I think moving the antisemitism material was a mistake. Leftism and Anti-semitism will almost certainly be deleted, but the anarchism-related material in it served a function here. Some people might prefer not to talk about it, but if we're going to have a paragraph in the introduction mysteriously bringing up Proudhon's and Bakunin's antisemitism without prior explanation, and if we are to account for how come they were claimed by far-right 'nationalism' (and their continuing significance for some of the far-right at the present time), then this material needs to be included, with the proper observation that their antisemitism has no intrinsic relation to the rest of their thought (hence we also have left-wing nationalist anarchism, without the antisemitism).
As I've stated loads of times, I don't want to suggest that nationalist anarchism is fascist or leads inexorably to fascism, but equally we can't cover our eyes and pretend there was nothing in Proudhon & co for fascists to exploit. I think this material should go back in somewhere, irrespective of whether the new antisemitism article gets deleted or not. Gnostrat 01:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Antisemitism etc.

message: The use of the term Stalinism was replaced by Marxism, with the reason being that Stalin had not risen to power by 1927. It is hard to see why. Certainly the policy of Bolshevisation was waged between 1924-5, by the Stalinists, and they took control of the Communist Party of Italy in January 1926. Indeed check out Trostky on China, to see how Trotsky rejected the ECCI policy in China. I think we really need to keep the term stalinist.Harrypotter 00:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Stalinism is a form of marxism, the trotskyist argument that denies the linkage is pure silliness put forward by people who don't want to admit that "dictatorship of the proletariat" necessitates a dictatorship.  Would "Bolshevism" be an acceptable compromise? Anarchocelt 06:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Whilst I have no truck with Trotskyism, to dismss that position as "silliness" in circumstances when 4 out of 5 of the largest party in the comintern were killed I feel is a bit trite. I think the Trotsky was not wishing to deny the role of the dictatorship of the proletariat, but was concerned about the fate of the party apparatus in China, while Stalin was happy to see it massacred (leaving a stalinist rump led by Mao, because it consolidated his position both inthe comintern and in the Soviet Union. I did consider Bolshevik as a suitable term, and indeed would be prepared to comprmise on that, as I feel that the policy as much led to the domination of teh Stalinists as being a product of their policy, and that the Trotskyist position was woefully inadequate even for their own political goals, let alone the antithetical goal of proletarian revolution. However, we may well find that this terminology does not get challenged by anyone with a deeper understanding of Trotskyism simply because they never venture to scrutinise this page.Harrypotter 18:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Stalinism or Marxism

message: This section desperately needs a more NPOV tone, IMO. Rather than attempt to describe what N-As actually believe, it seems far more interested in using weasel words to emphasise the fact that "most anarchists" apparently dislike N-A (I use dislike rather than disagree, because I actually believe that "most anarchists" would probably find little they actually disagree with in N-A if they were to objectively analyse the philosophy without simply dismissing it as "fascist"). Absolutely no mention is made of the fact that most white nationalists also reject N-A as being "communist", which puts it in a far greater context. N-As do not advocate segregation, in which a state imposes seperate living on two ethnic groups sharing its territory, but peaceful, voluntary seperation, for those who desire it. The mention of Mussolini and the fascist split is completely irrelevant - N-As reject fascism and all other statist forms. And finally, N-A is not right-wing - by its very nature it transcends the left/right view of the political spectrum. I am aware there a few open-minded souls editing this page, so I hope I won't be drowned out by the leftists too quickly. Belzub 14:43, 05 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've gone ahead and reworded it. Apologies for my slightly histrionic post here! I don't mean to attack any leftists here, or indeed anyone of any political persuasion. I hope the new section is to everybody's satisfaction, but if not please discuss it here and we'll try and come to some conclusion. I removed all of the stuff about Mussolini - it's just an irrelevant and subjective tangent, trying to compare N-As with Mussolini's fascists and mainstream anarchists with state-socialists, both of which are pretty insulting, as someone who was once a mainstream anarchist. I think the historical links between fascism and anarchism are all very interesting and they should be covered extensively here, but please leave it out of the N-A section, as it's not revelant to a modern movement. Belzub 13:38, 06 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: National-Anarchism

message: Skomorokh, in removing the specified image widths you have reduced the anarcho-swastika image to a ridiculously tiny size compared with the rest. I know I've always insisted Black Ram was not too important, but this is an svg image and is meant to be scaled up. It strikingly illustrates the subject matter and the size which I chose was a happy optimum which, by the way, I myself reduced from a size that was a little overbearing. On printouts, 165px yields the least fuzzy edges for the best spacing of surrounding text. Anybody who does layout here needs an artist's eye, as some horrendous examples would amply demonstrate.
In your edit summary you say that "The Manual of Style does not condone forcing image sizes. Thumb allows each reader to assert their own preferences". I'm afraid it just doesn't work like that. Whatever preferences you set (180px by default), everything larger will be reduced to fit but every image whose original is smaller will be retained at that smaller size, even if that is disproportionately minute. The Manual of Style doesn't disallow an editor from specifying image width. "Not necessary" does not mean the same thing as "forbidden". That is why the guideline continues: "However, the image subject or image properties may call for a specific image width to enhance the readability or layout of an article". Which is precisely what I did in the first place. I have reverted the image again but I am not looking for a revert war and I would be happy if you would remember that the MOS is a "guideline" to be applied "with common sense and the occasional exception". Gnostrat (talk) 06:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also discovered the following on WP:LAYOUT: "300px may be considered a limit, as this is approximately half Wikipedia's text space's width on a 800x600 screen. It is a good idea to try and maintain visual coherence by aligning the width of images and templates on a given page". So the WP guidelines appear to present no overall consistency in advising editors against fixing the sizes of images, and if any section of the guidelines suggests they shouldn't (as distinct from needn't), this would be contrary to sound common sense. Equalising image sizes enhances the tidiness of articles and is a positive contribution to Wikipedia. Leaving the widths unaligned would, in a good many cases, result in such marked size variation that a pretty messy looking article would be the outcome. Gnostrat (talk) 01:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry for not responding to this sooner; I was not aware that image formats with fluid scalability such as SVG existed. You're quite right. Skomorokh incite 16:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks : ) Gnostrat (talk) 23:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image size

message: ::The following has been copied from User talk:Tazmaniacs:
Hi, regarding your edit to Anarchism and nationalism, I actually think you got it right on an earlier edit. The vague "right-wing" and "left-wing" labels have never struck me as very meaningful. We ought to be saying something more, and "strong state" fits the context if you look at how the next sentence follows on. Actually the shift away from liberal nationalism in the later 19th century was precisely towards a strong state model a la Bismarck. You objected that "far-right" nationalists can be anti-state and subversive, and I agree with you, but doesn't that generally mean that in fact they are opposing what they see as a weak, liberal state in the cause of setting up an even stronger one? I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass here, just aiming for the most accurate descriptions we can manage and hoping I don't get myself a reputation for nit-picking. Gnostrat 17:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A better place to continue this discussion would be on the article's talk page where everyone can participate. Tazmaniacs would no doubt prefer this; I hadn't noticed the policy statement at the top of the page when I made my earlier posting. So I hope neither of you will object if I copy this section over to Talk: Anarchism and nationalism and we can carry on there. Gnostrat (talk) 19:48, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Strong state?

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replies: text: Images with iconic status or historical importance: As subjects of commentary. Some naughty vandal removed the reference to fascism!Harrypotter (talk) 08:39, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Funeraloftheanarchistgalli.jpg

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thread_title: File:N-A Flag.png Nominated for Deletion

message: Shouldn't we all be trying to draw attention away from this weird white nationalist "movement"? It's barely notable and articles like this that discusses the historical relationship between nationalism and anarchism ends up drawing attention to it. It's like having the meritocracy party (look it up) in the meritocracy article. And then the article practically fawns over its superspecialawesomeness and some crap about "the anarch" without even mentioning that this idea was thought up by white nationalists appropriating counter-culture symbolism for reactionary means and that no one knows what the hell it is. Some idiot using Wikipedia to study Mikhail Bakunin's pan-slavic ideas will be given the impression that this "National-Anarchism" is some benign post-anarchist development and isn't a big deal. It's inclusion in the article is quite obviously just propaganda. Hell, national-bolshevism is un-ironically a more popular idea (albeit in Russia)
--66.233.55.145 (talk) 23:20, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why do the "national anarchists" deserve a section? 

message: This article seems not to be appropriate for describing the relationship between anarchism and nationalism. Well, the first section gives a brief account of the wide-spread rejection of nationalism in anarchist discourses. However, in the introduction this is widely ignored. It picks out only positive relationships between anarchism and nationalism, although they are certainly not mainstream in anarchist discourses. Does it really argue that Proudhon was nationalist? He was anti-semitic, but nationalist? That seems to be bizarre! And why does the article mention Bakunin all the time? Because of his statements from the time when he was not yet an anarchist! --Chricho ∀ (talk) 00:05, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of these things you speak about were simply unsourced affirmations linked to bad arguments of links between anarchism and nationalist movements. As such much of that simply cannot go in this article.--Eduen (talk) 12:36, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scope of this article? 

message: These appear to not meet WP:QUOTEFARM:
Andrew Flood wrote in An Anarchist Perspective on Irish Nationalism,
Anarchists are not nationalists, in fact we are completely against nationalism. We don't worry about where your granny was born, whether you can speak Irish or if you drink a green milkshake in McDonalds on St Patrick's Day.
But this doesn't mean we can ignore nations. They do exist; and some nationalities are picked on, discriminated against because of their nationality. Irish history bears a lot of witness to this.
The Kurds, Native Americans, Chechins, and many more have suffered also - and to an amazingly barbaric degree. National oppression is wrong. It divides working class people, causes terrible suffering and strengthens the hand of the ruling class. Our opposition to this makes us anti-imperialists. ... So fight national oppression but look beyond nationalism. We can do a lot better. Changing the world for the better will be a hard struggle so we should make sure that we look for the best possible society to live in.
We look forward to a world without borders, where the great majority of people have as much right to freely move about as the idle rich do today. A worldwide federation of free peoples - classless and stateless - where we produce to satisfy needs and all have control over our destinies - that's a goal worth struggling for.An Anarchist Perspective on Irish Nationalism, by Andrew Flood. Workers Solidarity Movement (Ireland).
The Anarchist Federation views nationalism as an ideology totally bound up with the development of capitalism, and unable to go beyond it:
... At heart, nationalism is an ideology of class collaboration. It functions to create an imagined community of shared interests and in doing so to hide the real, material interests of the classes which comprise the population. The 'national interest' is a weapon against the working class, and an attempt to rally the ruled behind the interests of their rulers ... Anarchist communists do not simply oppose nationalism because it is bound up in racism and parochial bigotry. It undoubtedly fosters these things, and has mobilised them through history. Organising against them is a key part of anarchist politics. But nationalism does not require them to function. Nationalism can be liberal, cosmopolitan and tolerant, defining the 'common interest' of 'the people' in ways which do not require a single 'race'. Even the most extreme nationalist ideologies, such as fascism, can co-exist with the acceptance of a multiracial society, as was the case with the Brazilian Integralist movement. Nationalism uses what works – it utilises whatever superficial attribute is effective to bind society together behind it.Against Nationalism, by the Anarchist Federation (UK)
K.e.coffman (talk) 23:36, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extensive quoting from a primary source 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: To reiterate points made years ago, this article's scope is all over the place. It might, at one point, have been an unfocused essay about the relationship between anarchism and nationalist movements, but it ends up being a hodgepodge of mostly unsourced (or primary-sourced) information on how anarchists in various regions have regarded the state. In this regard, it's a less encyclopedic and perhaps more globalized version of History of anarchism. After all the info without secondary sourcing is removed, only a shell would remain, and even that would need refocusing. Does anyone have sources that specifically address the relationship between anarchism and nationalism? Either way, or until someone does, this article needs TNT and perhaps a redirect. czar 18:55, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scope 

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