Talk:The Tales of Hoffmann

message: I have been trying to re-name this The Tales of Hoffmann but I've been having problems! I succeed in moving the film The Tales of Hoffmann to The Tales of Hoffmann (film) but that's about it! Kleinzach 00:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Moving the Page

message: I wonder whether it would be better to have these in the order they appear in the opera? In other words From Act 1 to Act 3 etc. --Kleinzach 08:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: done :) - Jay 09:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Noted Arias

message: I know this has been discussed a bit above, but I thought it might be worth noting that this guideline suggests English titles are preferable where possible, so I'm wondering if "Tales of Hoffman]] might be the more appropriate title for this article. I hear both the English and the French used commonly, and would therefore lean toward using the English title per the guideline above. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 09:18, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the Opera Project list at Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/English names this one did meet the criteria for using the English title, and it was so listed. I'm not sure when the title was changed back to the French. Having said that, the redirect from The Tales of Hoffmann solves any practical problems. Best. -- Kleinzach 11:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, true, but still, the guideline I cite suggests using English titles as the primary one (i.e., the one you see when reading the article). I may put in a requested move soon to see if there's any consensus. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 08:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title revisited 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Support. Customary. I see no reason to use French for one Offenbach operetta; we use Orpheus in the Underworld. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:16, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Whether we use the French title or the English title, Hoffmann has two n's.  The page needs to be moved again.  --  JackofOz (talk) 12:51, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep. Please let's move it. --Folantin (talk) 08:23, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Hoffma'''nn''', not Hoffman

message: What language is the libretto in?Kdammers (talk) 13:03, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: French - Jay (talk) 16:09, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language 

message: I switched Act 2 to 3, and 3 to 2 (Guiletta 's act is Act 2, while Craspel's in Act 3) - Jay (talk) 17:22, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, Jay - nice to see you back here.  If you look at the section near the top of the article entitled "The different editions of the opera", you'll see that there's no consensus on the order of the acts.  The Antonia act is often performed third because the music is better (and that's what they did at Covent Garden when I saw it there a year ago), but Offenbach's intention was to have the Giulietta act third.  From the dramatic point of view, that makes more sense, as some of the music from that act is reprised in the Epilogue which follows immediately.  Maybe the synopsis (whichever way the acts are arranged) should make this clear, e.g. "Act 2 (sometimes performed as Act 3)" and the reverse for Act 3.  Best --GuillaumeTell 18:19, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  According to Jacques Offenbach and the librettist there has never been an oder Olympia - Giulietta - Antonia. Also the theater play by Barbier and Carré had the order Olympia - Antonia - Giulietta. The chaotic situation after Offenbach´s death and Carvalho´s changes caused confusion about the order of the acts. In the Antonia act there is a clear reference to the preceding Olympia act when Niklaus/the Muse mocks Hoffmann for having fallen to an automatic machine. 
A few renowned directors, though, have chosen the differing order. For recent European productions see www.offenbach-hoffmann.de where a diverging order of the acts is noted. 
Olympia - Giulietta - Antonia: one might argue that Hoffmann´s first infatuation with a doll was a mishap, he then turns to a prostitute and is cheated, but finally makes a serious attempt to establish a relationship.
Olympia - Antonia - Giulietta: having been deceived by a mechanical doll, Hoffmann plans to marry Antonia. When she prefers a career as a singer he finally seeks his luck with a courtesan. 
I think the original order of the acts makes more sense. If a director chooses to change the original order of the two acts and justifies the decision, why not. This opera is so frequently misunderstood and turned into a farce that a meaningful interpretation with a reversed order of the acts is preferable to a farce with the original order. Ontologix (talk) 20:14, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

text: What's the alternative? Just call them by their female main character? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:57, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems reasonable. Most people I know who talk about it refer to the Antonia segment or the Giulietta segment -- SteveCrook (talk) 16:43, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Since Josef Heinzelmann discovered the original libretto that had been handed in to the censors there can be no doubt about the correct order: Olympia - Antonia - Giulietta. Ontologix (talk) 14:20, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Act 2 and 3 

message: thank you for the correction on sources; Ernest Newman claims that the character of Pitichinaccio comes from Signor Formica in The Serapion Brethren(?)
I would like to propose that, to correct some discrepancies in the current table, and to allow creators of roles in the Venice act to be named, the table be amended to this (I also added chorus):
====Roles====
Role                                  	Voice type      	Premiere cast, February 10, 1881(Conductor: Jules Danbé)	Complete with 'Giulietta Act',7 December 1881(Conductor: -)
Andrès, Cochenille, Frantz            	tenor           	Pierre Grivot                                           	
Pitichinaccio                         	tenor           	                                                        	
Antonia, a young girl                 	soprano         	Adèle Isaac                                             	
Crespel, Antonia's father             	bass            	Hypolite Belhomme                                       	
Giulietta, a courtesan                	soprano         	                                                        	
Hermann, a student                    	bass            	Teste                                                   	
Hoffmann, a poet                      	tenor           	Jean-Alexandre Talazac                                  	
Lindorf, Coppélius, Miracle           	bass-baritone   	Émile-Alexandre Taskin                                  	
Dapertutto                            	bass-baritone   	                                                        	
Luther                                	bass            	Troy                                                    	
Nathanaël, a student                  	tenor           	Chenevières                                             	
Nicklausse, the muse                  	mezzo-soprano   	Marguerite Ugalde                                       	
Olympia, a mechanical doll            	soprano         	Adèle Isaac                                             	
Peter Schlémil, in love with Giulietta	bass            	                                                        	
Spalanzani, an inventor               	tenor           	E. Gourdon                                              	
Stella, a singer                      	soprano         	Adèle Isaac                                             	
Voice of the mother of Antonia        	soprano         	Dupuis                                                  	
Students, Guests                      	Students, Guests	Students, Guests                                        	Students, Guests
Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 16:51, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: We often put revision casts into these tables, so that's fine, however I think it would be a good idea to explain it in the text. Normally we have a whole section on 'Performance history' (distinct from 'revision history') but that's missing here. --Kleinzach 01:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: sources and role table

message: Role                                  	Voice type      	Premiere cast, February 10, 1881(Conductor: Jules Danbé)	Complete with 'Giulietta Act',7 December 1881(Conductor: -)
Andrès, Cochenille, Frantz            	tenor           	Pierre Grivot                                           	
Pitichinaccio                         	tenor           	                                                        	
Antonia, a young girl                 	soprano         	Adèle Isaac                                             	
Crespel, Antonia's father             	bass            	Hypolite Belhomme                                       	
Giulietta, a courtesan                	soprano         	                                                        	
Hermann, a student                    	bass            	Teste                                                   	
Hoffmann, a poet                      	tenor           	Jean-Alexandre Talazac                                  	
Lindorf, Coppélius, Miracle           	bass-baritone   	Émile-Alexandre Taskin                                  	
Dapertutto                            	bass-baritone   	                                                        	
Luther                                	bass            	Troy                                                    	
Nathanaël, a student                  	tenor           	Chenevières                                             	
Nicklausse, the muse                  	mezzo-soprano   	Marguerite Ugalde                                       	
Olympia, a mechanical doll            	soprano         	Adèle Isaac                                             	
Peter Schlémil, in love with Giulietta	bass            	                                                        	
Spalanzani, an inventor               	tenor           	E. Gourdon                                              	
Stella, a singer                      	soprano         	Adèle Isaac                                             	
Voice of the mother of Antonia        	soprano         	Dupuis                                                  	
Students, Guests                      	Students, Guests	Students, Guests                                        	Students, Guests
Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 16:51, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: We often put revision casts into these tables, so that's fine, however I think it would be a good idea to explain it in the text. Normally we have a whole section on 'Performance history' (distinct from 'revision history') but that's missing here. --Kleinzach 01:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Roles

message: In fact more than the three named works by Hoffmann were used in composing the play and libretto. Elements can be found in Don Juan (= Don Giovanni) and Klein Zaches, genannt Zinnober. Possibly Don Juan inspired Barbier and Carré to compose the play. Ontologix (talk) 16:48, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  E.T.A. Hoffmann sources for the play and libretto 

message: Why are there no notes to direct people to the various editions mentioned in the Editions section? Was the joint project to be published in 2011 published? Can the autograph music that was found later be accessed? 98.14.15.215 (talk) 20:14, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editions 

message: Why did somebody delete the link to the page www.offenbach-hoffmann.de? This is the page that has so far reviewed over 100 different productions of this opera? No other page worldwide offers a similar overview of current productions. Ontologix (talk) 08:03, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: When I removed that link on 29 September 2016, it was dead. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:09, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  The page is alive and kicking and has been reviewing dozens of European productions between Norway and Austria since Sep 2016. The latest review dates from Nov 2017. I visited the page frequently in the past years and never found it offline. Latest review www.myway.de/hoffmann/1718-flensburg.html Is user Bednarek aware that a page can be offline for a limited time when it is being updated? Did you retry a little later? Are we seeing a case of vandalism by Bednarek here? Just put the link back in or produce another similar page.(Ontologix (talk) 03:33, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Reviews

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thread_title:  Featured picture scheduled for POTD 

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thread_title:  Featured picture scheduled for POTD