Talk:Anna Freud

message: I edited out this statement, which was flagged, "Freud is said to refer to her in his diaries more than others in the family. [citation needed]". If anyone can find a trustworthy source to affirm this, that'd be great!
Kaity Sherksnas (talk) 17:16, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Supporting Citation 

message: I love her quotes!
Look, there is another one, quotation from a letter, very beautiful, too:
"Dear John ...,
You asked me what I consider essential personal qualities in a future psychoanalyst. The answer is comparatively simple. If you want to be a real psychoanalyst you have to have a great love of the truth, scientific truth as well as personal truth, and you have to place this appreciation of truth higher than any discomfort at meeting unpleasant facts, whether they belong to the world outside or to your own inner person.
Further, I think that a psychoanalyst should have...interests...beyond the limits of the medical field...in facts that belong to sociology, religion, literature, ,[and] history,...[otherwise]his outlook on...his patient will remain too narrow. This point contains...the necessary preparations beyond the requirements made on candidates of psychoanalysis in the institutes. You ought to be a great reader and become aquainted with the literature of many countries and cultures. In the great literary figures you will find people who know at least as much of human nature as the psychiatrists and psychologists try to do.
Does that answer your question?
		Yours sincerely,
			Anna Freud
Austerlitz 88.72.3.87 15:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Letter 

message: I wanted to put the quotation of Anna Freud's letter on the mainpage and I succeeded doing so. But I also wanted to create a footnote with the source of this quotation and I didn't succeed. Even worse the rest of the page has been deleted. Can somebody please help correcting this?
:Austerlitz 88.72.29.246 18:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Austerlitz 88.72.13.86 15:37, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Austerlitz 88.72.13.86 18:22, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I've been able to fix the references technically (per WP:CITE) although I'm not convinced that the full text of the letter belongs in the article. -Fadookie Talk 02:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Help

message: Somebody had put the family name (?) Kilburn to John, I deleted it. Please tell whether you know the name and where from.
:Austerlitz 88.72.11.58 16:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Kilburn

message: Some information:
*Homepage
*History, from the Homepage
*
:Austerlitz 88.72.31.243 10:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Anna Freud Centre

message: Chapter Eight of Masson's book Final Analysis is very interesting information, it's entitled Anna Freud and I. Austerlitz 88.72.24.0 14:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Anna Freud and I

message: The article is currently in very poor condition, and needs extensive editing... someone, please? 85.64.24.65 (talk) 15:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extensive editing needed 

message: Someone wrote "What a twat!" Is there anyone who can remove that because I can't?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.209.19.224 (talk) 08:01, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't seem to find that text anywhere in the article, which part are you talking about? Also anyone can edit an article by pressing the "Edit" tab, near the top of your screen. Cheers, and welcome to wikipedia,  SpitfireTally-ho! 08:05, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like someone removed it then.--62.209.19.224 (talk) 12:10, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: Were she and Dorothy Burlingham a lesbian couple? Nietzsche 2 (talk) 04:44, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I really think, if someone says 'to their dying day' that they're not a lesbian, then they probably are not. In those days plenty of women, lived with other women but weren't gay, they just preferred female company, or never found 'the one'. I think that sentence should be removed. Unless there is glaring evidence that Anna was gay, leave that sentence OUT. I'm sure if she was alive today, you'd be done for libel:)
Veryscarymary (talk) 19:06, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have removed the text, it is clearly POV. Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 09:54, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the account in the article sourced to substantive works by Roudinesco and her principal biographer Young-Breuhl there is no reason to dispute Anna Freud’s claim that she was not in a sexual relationship with Dorothy Burlingham. On this basis and given the consensus here I have reverted repeated  edits by Totocugno which continue to describe her as a lesbian citing unreliable sources from France (describing her as a self-hating homophobic homosexual) which have not been deemed noteworthy enough to merit translation into English.  Almanacer (talk) 19:12, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Most people would want to be guided by an official biography like Young-Bruehl (2008). She deals with the matter on page 138. 86.187.225.105 (talk) 16:03, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: i cite reliable sources ! --T0t0  Cugn0 (talk) 23:58, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Talking about main sources to allow oneself to refuse sources because of their nationality is neither neutral nor encyclopedic! There are academicworks in English presenting the same perspectives (describing her as a lesbian ""self-hating homophobic homosexual"" etc), what reasons will you find for refusing them ? --T0t0  Cugn0 (talk) 13:36, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lesbian? 

message: I plan to re-introduce the sources about théoretical homophobia of psychoanalitic mouvement (IPA) and especially lesbiannisme and paradoxical homophobia of anna freud.--G de gonjasufi (talk) 12:54, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It is unarguably the case that the IPA was during the last century discriminatory in barring homosexuals from training as candidates and that most IPA analysts, Anna Freud included, viewed homosexuality as a sexual pathology.  That, however, was a matter of clinical judgement and does not justify the claim made against her of personal homophobia which implies a pathological hostility for which there is no evidence notwithstanding a great deal of rumour-mongering especially in French circles where there is a history of fractious conflict with the IPA over a wide range of issues. The Young-Bruehl biography notes that she came to believe homosexuality should not necessarily be a bar to training as an analyst (p. 325). Almanacer (talk) 09:12, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: the facts of Anna Freud are sourced and the sources (not only french) go in this direction ! --T0t0  Cugn0 (talk) 10:19, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Academic sources even mock Young-Bruehl on this specific point (and others). --T0t0  Cugn0 (talk) 10:21, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Where reliable English language sources from Freud specialists are contradicted by French sources from authors whose speculations have not been deemed worthy of translation, the latter do not merit inclusion in the article. Almanacer (talk) 20:15, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

text: Agree with Almanacer's argument above. There is no justification for describing Anna as personally homophobic. Harold the Sheep (talk) 23:05, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Here, we do encyclopedic work. Our personal opinions are irrelevant. Sources analyze the fact that she was homophobic. Facts.--T0t0  Cugn0 (talk) 08:14, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Harold the Sheep  that your sources are not reliable.  The opinion I have expressed is that there is no reliably sourced documentation to justify the accusation of personal homophobia by Anna Freud - that's not an opinion about whether she was or not.  Almanacer (talk) 20:00, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't have an argument, you just express your unfounded opinion. There are several sources. --T0t0  Cugn0 (talk) 09:00, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homophobia 

message: A major figure such as Anna Freud deserves a much better article than this unsourced and badly written rubbish. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 11:41, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: A very poor article

message: Anna Freud has offered a Child Therapy Training Programm in Hampstead following World War II, Erna Furman has been a graduate of this programm. There has been another programm at Tavistock.
:--88.72.15.53 (talk) 10:58, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Anna Freud

message: I have no idea why the book was listed under several authors. The bibliography data page of this book seen in Google Books clearly shows a single author. Bar-abban (talk) 22:57, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference to "The Jewish 100" 

message: To be used for the article: 
*http://www.rh7.org/factsheets/Holocaust.html
*http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=bafc.009.0313a
*http://www.wienerlibrary.co.uk/Assets/Docs/newsletter/WLN%20Summer%2009.pdf
*http://www.springerlink.com/content/g0377k4352205581/
*http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/28/a1955928.shtml
:--88.75.79.48 (talk) 18:43, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some information on Alice Goldberger 

message: *http://www.pep-web.org/search.php?author=%22Friedmann%2C+M.%22&PHPSESSID=ptsvj9rnrosgnssog30vl0ov00
:--88.75.79.48 (talk) 19:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: --88.75.79.48 (talk) 19:14, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

text: --88.75.79.48 (talk) 19:16, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

text: --88.75.79.48 (talk) 19:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

text: --88.75.79.48 (talk) 19:44, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

text: --88.75.79.48 (talk) 19:44, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

text: --88.72.1.149 (talk) 11:57, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Publications not mentioned yet 

message: In external references, the following link is a page that no longer contains the cited information: 
http://knol.google.com/k/tom-butler-bowdon/the-ego-and-the-mechanisms-of-defense/2l1paxxoh5qsf/24#  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kathon (talk • contribs) 20:57, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broken link in external references 

message: It isn't mentioned whether or not she ever took up British citizenship or whether she, like her nephews Lucian and Clement, was ever offered a British honour.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by AloysiusZimmerfloss (talk • contribs) 03:41, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: British citizen?

message: The article is written in a very promotional tone, and contains little or no mention of criticism of her work. DuncanHill (talk) 15:14, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Promotional tone 

message: As any first year psych student will be able to confirm, clinical psychologists view psychoanalysis as subjective, incomplete and a case study of many of the patients treated by Sigmund and Anna reveals that its results were generally ineffective to adverse. Therefore, in order to avoid misleading the layman and convey the prevailing expert consensus, it is essential to note in the Lede that psychoanalysis is indeed considered defunct.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.50.0.255 (talk) 04:21, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Take your argument to Talk:Psychoanalysis, achieve consensus over there, and then come back here. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:18, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Psychoanalysis is Defunt 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "It might be indeed said..." , "it may still be salutary to heed..."
-> shoot them all. Zezen (talk) 08:39, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weasels galore 

message: I gave some details about the suicide of Anna Frank's "step daughter" (Mary) and the alcoholism and early death of her "step son" (Robert). This was removed by Almanacer on the grounds of a supposedly unreliable citation at odds with "reliable sources". The citation given was to a BBC documentary (Adam Curtis - The century of the Self -part 2) and in particular an interview with Robert Burlingham's son Michael. Given the importance of Anna Frank in the development of child psychotherapy, the fact that her lifelong intervention had such ineffective outcomes with her own step children is surely of interest, removing such references seems more a case of preserving her prestige than making the text more reliable. I must question what the "reliable sources" are that deny Mary's suicide, and why a family member speaking on camera in a BBC documentary is not a "reliable source"?DH987 (talk) 19:07, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Young-Bruehl, Elisabeth (1988). Anna Freud: A Biography Yale University Press  the desceased Burlinghams were discouraged by Anna Freud to continue in analysis with her and both found other analysts. If you want to make a claim of “ineffective outcome” linked to her you need to source it to a peer reviewed publication see WP:RS TV interviews with family members with a history of questionable claims (see section above  'Relationship between Anna Freud and Dorothy Tiffany Burlingham') don’t qualify as reliable. Almanacer (talk) 21:00, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

text: DH987 (talk) 22:56, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

text: To be clear I am here to defend, not AF’s reputation, but the integrity of the article by keeping to facts  described in reliable sources.  I’ve no objection to adding facts from such sources concerning the suicide and death of the Burlingham’s (in the right section of the article ie London years) but opinions linking to their analysis with AF cannot be substantiated or reliably sourced - certainly not to a family member with emotional ties involved.  The WP guidelines are clear that sources of academic provenance are the preferred option for source material. Young-Bruehl gives an account of both deaths (heart disease - not alcoholism , and suicide) and I am happy to add a summary to the article accordingly. (BTW you keep referring to Anna Frank - Freudian slip?) Almanacer (talk) 20:08, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

text: Thanks for the reply. Yes I had also read that the cause of death was not alcoholism and would have altered that (although it would have contributed to ill health).  I agree that the cause of Mabby's death cannot be definitively attributed to Freud's interventions.  However I strongly disagree that family members' opinions (if stated as opinions rather than facts) should be disregarded.  The very fact that they are emotionally involved is what drives them to understand better. For example with some psychological conditions therapy carried out by family members ("family based therapy" rather than "family therapy") is known to be more effective than direct professional intervention.  I suspect there are a number of reasons for this, one of which is that family members tend to care more.  The fact that Dorothy Burlingham dedicated time to her grandson and recounted her life to him when she was already approaching death surely adds to the validity of Michael's book.  I would also say that as a member of the family he will have picked up on any number of clues, impressions and oddities as we all do in our dealings with people.  These add to, rather than diminish, the significance of his work. - Re the Freudian slip; surely Anna Freud's revenge!DH987 (talk) 15:54, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I think your post here just crossed with the new content I added to the article which I hope you are OK with.  A previous discussion of Michael B on this page referred to his attempts to promote a film script on his family history and suggested he was prone to over dramatising as a result. No reason though his book can’t be cited as long as inline citations are given. I suspect we have different experiences of family life!! Almanacer (talk) 22:07, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suicide of Mary Burlingham and Alcoholism of Robert Burlingham 

message: Nothing on this subject  ? T0t0  Cugn0 (talk) 21:22, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you mean this? What would you add? The Marylin Monroe article says this (in a note): "" 86.187.236.59 (talk) 21:57, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: And her legacy & testament. --T0t0  Cugn0 (talk) 21:33, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've added a sentence on Monroe's bequest to the Hampstead Clinic. The Spoto biography mentions they met in London. He states she had an analysis with  her but this has not been confirmed. Almanacer (talk) 16:32, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anna Freud & Marilyn Monroe ? 

message: Will we make a good article based on missing hagiopgraphic biographies and hindsight and criticism of the psychoanalytical sect ? T0t0  Cugn0 (talk) 03:37, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hagiopgraphic biographies