Talk:Mormonism and Nicene Christianity/Archive 7

message: I propose that we delete the entire section, ==Current Trends of Conflict==.  I realize that this is a bit drastic, but I do think that I have the beginnings of a reasonable proposal for what should take its place.  My userspace thinking page gives some of my rationale.  I would appreciate comments there, if you are interested in improving my thinking; or comments here if you are opposed or in favor of the proposal to delete that section.  Mkmcconn — 01:03, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to propose an extreme stand on this: We must remove conjecture and guesswork from these articles.  Too many statements are based on "Mormons say this," "Christians say that," and undocumented (or frankly unfounded) propositions.  This is about Mormonism and Christianity, not "Mormons" and "Christians."  If a statement can be documented and directly cross-referenced, then by all means let's include those statements, and include the cross-reference.  I really think this is the only way we're going to settle most of the conversations around content (ie, "Mormonism is," "Joseph Smith said [x] in [y]," "The president of the Evangelical Church of America said [x] in [y]," etc). Sterlingbates 03:48, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: Tom, I agree :)  I hope more to generate discussion and focus than to create debate.  I apologize if my remarks come across too strong; I do feel strongly about getting things right (as I'm sure most others here do as well).  I'll perhaps take more time to write down my thoughts.  Sterlingbates 04:32, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  major deletion 

message: I don't think this section comes close. Instead of discussing the differences in salvation, it focuses on how to attain salvation, essentially rehashing the old faith vs. works argument. It also focuses on Calvinism, which is a subset of Protestantism, and wholly ignores the differences with the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. I think the real difference is in what the final result looks like in Mormonism: becoming like God to the extent that we are each equal to God in His divine attributes, including the power to create new worlds, populate them with people, and eventually exalt them into new gods as well. I base this mainly on the LDS section of the Theosis article, btw; if what I just said isn't representative of the LDS church, perhaps that section needs revision so it doesn't mislead the uninformed, like myself. Wesley \
I would edit it, but it looks more like it needs a complete rewrite, and wanted to discuss that here first. Wesley 17:12, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, that's a very bad part of the article that needs to be fixed.  I know that we must do some of this comparing back and forth, but it is hard to do it productively. Mkmcconn (Talk) 17:38, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: A Different Salvation

message: After talking about this for some time, and thinking through this article repeatedly, I want to modify my deletion proposal, and eliminate the section on "Current Trends Conflict - Traditional Christian view".  It can be re-written, but I think that it should start from scratch; and in the meantime I think that the article as a whole will be strengthened if this section is eliminated entirely for the time-being.  I plan to do this today, if there is no objection (so speak up, if you disapprove).  Mkmcconn (Talk) 23:01, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  I put it on its own archive page.  Next, I'll get to work on what should take its place. Mkmcconn (Talk) 01:59, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: I think that it's helpful to keep the views separate.  This way, the list of Mormon distinctives can grow to be as long as Mormons think it should be; and I won't be tempted to keep trying to make it shorter or to counter their claims with arguments disproving them.  From the other side, it comes down to a very small number of central issues, from which all the rest follows.  Mkmcconn (Talk) 19:56, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: My apologies, Mk, I hadn't read the titles closely enough to recognize that those were your sections.  I thought they were starters for point-by-point discussion. Sterling 07:17, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  On the other hand, if in describing Evangelicalism (for example), Mormonism is described falsely (as distinct from unfavorably), that needs to be fixed.  Mkmcconn (Talk) 10:08, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: One topic or distinction I think should be added is the nature of salvation, namely what we need to be saved from and what goal we hope to achieve, from both LDS and traditional perspectives. This could be either instead of or in addition to the current section on Salvation near the end. I would even say instead of, because it distinguishes Mormonism from pretty much all other Christian groups and not just from evangelicals. Wesley 04:10, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would prefer that, too.  At the same time, it's probably important to note that most books and articles distinguishing Mormonism from Christianity are written from the Evangelical point of view. Mkmcconn (Talk) 15:17, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  More modest deletion 

message: I started a rewrite of the traditional view of the differences, beginning with the Church; and, I moved the section on "ecumenism" to the end to serve as a summary of the present state of the conflict. I also fiddled with what I considered an unnecessary subdivision of the Mormon view, separating the practices from the beliefs in what I thought to be a somewhat artificial way.  Let me have a good accounting of the health of your toes, after all this stomping around! Mkmcconn (Talk) 19:15, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that it's helpful to keep the views separate.  This way, the list of Mormon distinctives can grow to be as long as Mormons think it should be; and I won't be tempted to keep trying to make it shorter or to counter their claims with arguments disproving them.  From the other side, it comes down to a very small number of central issues, from which all the rest follows.  Mkmcconn (Talk) 19:56, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Traditional view -- rewrite 

message: Sterlingbates, reading through this article, you should notice that Mormonism is allowed to present an accurate picture of itself without being required to argue off an opposing view.  For this to work, you must allow the same courtesy to the other side.  Please do not insert debate into the explanation of views.  Mkmcconn (Talk) 03:13, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: My apologies, Mk, I hadn't read the titles closely enough to recognize that those were your sections.  I thought they were starters for point-by-point discussion. Sterling 07:17, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  On the other hand, if in describing Evangelicalism (for example), Mormonism is described falsely (as distinct from unfavorably), that needs to be fixed.  Mkmcconn (Talk) 10:08, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: One topic or distinction I think should be added is the nature of salvation, namely what we need to be saved from and what goal we hope to achieve, from both LDS and traditional perspectives. This could be either instead of or in addition to the current section on Salvation near the end. I would even say instead of, because it distinguishes Mormonism from pretty much all other Christian groups and not just from evangelicals. Wesley 04:10, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would prefer that, too.  At the same time, it's probably important to note that most books and articles distinguishing Mormonism from Christianity are written from the Evangelical point of view. Mkmcconn (Talk) 15:17, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Argumentative style - not preferred