Talk:History of Christianity in Ukraine/Archive 2

message: Please all stop revert warring over the article now! This article has a great potential. It could use much improvement, but hastle changes in order to POV alter it is the wrong way. The old stable version was proofread and was here for months. I will restore the stable version and lets work out the differences at talk, section by section. Please no sloppy fast hand changes. Kazak, you started this mess, btw, but it doesn't matter. I regret adding a ref to the article that brought this all here. Please all, lets discuss things at talk, hammer out the solutions and add them to articles. Please no rushy acts. --Irpen 20:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To be fair, this article remained dormant and nobody approached it for over a few months. I offered to really have it achieve the potential that it can have, yet people began first blanking out information then putting silly weasel words into the article to justify something. The paragraphs require a major copyedit, but the factual information in them is referenced and correct.--Kuban Cossack 20:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well for starters I propose that the article be restructured currentely it is a bit of pre-20th century history...and then a lot of modern information then 20th century history and then Protestatns. I simply tried to start copyediting.--Kuban Cossack 20:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Right then, archiving looks to be compleate, shall we begin, or will the opposite party take no part in the discussion whatsoever.--Kuban Cossack 21:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your version was copypasted from here , that is plagiarism and will be removed.--Kuban Cossack 00:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This not problem possible to rephrase or arrange as quoting. This only small fragment --Yakudza 06:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What? A quote would be a sentence, two at the most; you inserted paragraphs of information istead of taking your time to neutralise and wikify my paragraph (I NEVER said any of my edits are 100% perfect and are no way subject to no modification) - go for it take my paragraph (which actually repeats all of the facts you plagiarised from RISU - also a non-nutral source) and change what you think it needs. That is the difference between constructive and destructive editing.--Kuban Cossack 09:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Now for my replies, all of my data is referenced and sourced (RISU btw is also not-neutral, it is owned by the UGCC, and there will certainly be a POV with it as well) Secondly, if you want a mediation fine, file one, but maybe it is worth to compleate the article first, because currentely it requires massive expansions. Now the Pochayiv Lavra (despite being Russian, I prefer to stick with correct titles in talk pages and articles) was an article also written with sourced information form the cloister's official website. --Kuban Cossack 00:42, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Development proposal

message: I made a few changes to wikify the opening paragraph. Wiki style calls for the the opening to include the name of the article in boldface and describe the nature of the article briefly and succinctly. As a matter of grammar, I also changed "the legends" to "legend," as specific legends are not cited in the opening.
It would also be much better if the following paragraphs could be "below the fold" (i.e., below the TOC). This can be assigning a subhead to these paragraphs or possibly adding them below. Do they qualify under the subtitle of "Early History." Thanks for your help in promoting style and readability! Cheers, Cecropia 04:19, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you very much this article has been neglected for so long it is nice to see people strarting to take notice. --Kuban Cossack 09:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening paragraphs 

message: I am familar with Austrian persecution of Russophiles: my family were among those persecuted (two of grandmother's older brothers escaped being hanged by studying in St. Petersburg).  However by 1914 Russophilism was a minority movement mostly popular among some very conservative clergy/nobility families.  I would estimate their support among the general population was no more than 20%.  Virtually any history of the area supports this (I provided references when I made the edits).  Russophilism peaked in the mid-1800's and was eclipsed by the Ukrainian national movement.  The article shouldn't imply that Orthodoxy was a popular movement in Galicia in 1914.  I am doubtful that it was popular in Volyn when the Uniate church there was abolished in the 1830's, but am not sure and so will not change that other section now.  regards Faustian 18:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, here is an excellent soruce on Unia's disestablishement  and here is the official site of the Pochayiv lavra  whose history gives a clear indication of Volhynia. (You seem to have more luck with references than I). --Kuban Cossack  14:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Austrian Galicia and World War I

message: I am reverting the article back to what it had been prior to multiple unreferenced changes for several reasons.
With respect to the Greek Catholic Eparchy of Mukachevo, it is NOT part of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.  It has its own history, entered Union in a different way on a different date, etc. from the UGCC.  It is as separate from it as, say, the Romanian Orthodox Church is from the Russian Orthodox Church.  Therefore it needs its own heading.  Because it is a minor church when considered nationally (about 200 parishes) it probably belongs among "other" groups, unless someone has an argument not to put it there.
:Fully agree, but it should be expanded as it is extremely misleading presentely. --Kuban Cossack  14:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree as well, however, I remember that in almost every place there is an old wooden Uniate church and a newer, stone/concrete/brick Orthodox church back to back. (Most were built in 1930s if I remember correctely, that should mentioned).--Kuban Cossack  14:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes you are right, but should we count Protestant groups in percentages, without them, and based pn your second source it is about 50%. However the biggest fact is that of the Orthodox parishes, the UOC is dominant in all aspects. --Kuban Cossack  14:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Agree and disagree. The problem is that for Hungarians Protestantism is their "mother-religion" whilst elsewhere in Ukraine this is mostly a result of missionary work. So how do we apply this is a good question. Do check your e-mail in the process as it will have complete relevance to the maps I am trying to draw. --Kuban Cossack  09:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Transcarpathia and other changes

message: This term seems to be invented by a wikipedian. The only reference found by Google is to the present WP article: .
Subtelny and Magosci mentioned it in their history of Ukraine.  They didn't refer to it as the Talerhof Massacre, but noted that there was a concentration camp where 20,000 or so Ukrainian Russophiles were sent, thousands of whom died from exposure and poor nutrition/medical care.  The Austrian government eventually shut it down due to outrage.  There were also numerous cases of executions of collaborators following the Russian withdrawal.Faustian 20:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not disputed the fact, but the term. Now I chaged the text. Please have a look, whether you agree.--AndriyK 20:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Have a look at this . --Kuban Cossack  09:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Or at this:, if you know some German. It does not only mention Thalerhof but also 30,000 executions of Russophiles in Ruthenia (during the summer and autumn of 1914), most of them without any semblance of a trial. In the notes, the author promises to write a monography on this. His name is Hans Hautmann. Better watch out for this name in future, I suppose. Evan though he is probably a communist. User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy--pgp 15:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Talerhof massacre"