Talk:Beaufort scale

message: I learned to use the beaufort scale in 1941 while plotting daily synoptic charts in the Army Air Corps at Kelly Field, Tx. This is very good.jonhays 00:35, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Whould it be too much to ask to see the unexpurgated sequence or are electrons in short supply these days?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.23.66.170 (talk) 02:38, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Is it common (and if so, where) to denote wind speeds in km/h? In my native Sweden, I have only ever seen m/s (and of course knots in nautical contexts). It may well be that in other parts of the world, km/h is used instead, but if not, I think the table should give values in m/s (first because it's the SI unit), knots, and mph. -- Jao 19:16, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
Of the three countries I've lived in, weather forecasts in two (Germany and Canada) use km/h, while one (Britain) uses the Beaufort
scale itself. I've not seen m/s, although I'm sure it is standard in scientific contexts, and as you say in Sweden! I added km/h as I thought it would be more intuitively intelligible to the majority of readers; even if they're not familiar with wind measurements in km/h per se, most people will have some idea of what it feels like if you stick your hand out of the car window at 100km/h. I suspect anyone with a scientific inclination is capable of going to the article on knots and performing the relevant computation for themselves, but I certainly wouldn't be against adding m/s to the article as well. Best wishes, Cambyses 08:41, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You have convinced me that km/h should stay. As to whether we could have a fourth measure, well, I won't go into that. It might become too much. -- Jao 10:01, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
In Bulgaria usually meteorolists are forecasting the winds in m/s, while news reporters on the TV are using km/h. Thus I am going to put both under single column in the Bulgarian version. -- Goldie 19:20, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  km/h as opposed to m/s 

message: On, 17 June 2004 21:12 speeds were change to mean speeds.  I feel that this may have been misunderstood by the user who changed them because the user added a less than and greater than value to the mean speeds on the high and low ends.  Are the means speeds really needed? -- 03:19, 9 Jul 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Speeds 

message: Ought the criteria given by Beaufort, listed at both the Met and National Weather Service websites, be given here too? There does not seem to be room in the table, but maybe there is, and at the least it could be added in a separate table on this same page. - Centrx 18:34, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd support that. PeteVerdon 12:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beaufort criteria for effects on sailing ships 

message: I've always thought that there are big waves under a storm, but almost flat water under a hurricane, since the waves would be blown apart? Is that a myth, or? 83.93.224.223 12:24, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Myth. Maybe in an extremely strong hurricane, but not in your every-day hurricane. - Cuivienen 02:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

text: All hurricanes generate storm surge (a lifting of the ocean due to their low pressure), and all hurricanes generate millions of foamy waves on top of the storm surge.  de Bivort 17:00, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Waves under hurricane? 

message: When was the scale extended? UK MetOffice said that the Beaufort scale was extended in 1944. However, I've seen a few sources saying that it was extended in 1950's. Which one is true? Momoko
:The Nynorsk version of this page gives specific wind speeds for 13, 14, and 15. -- Evertype·✆ 11:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Found a reference which mentions a 17 level scale in 1946, but this doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't extended that year.  Thegreatdr (talk) 01:35, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extension to Force 17 

message: I don't like that. So I changed it into text again. 
218.168.213.149 05:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scale is a jpeg 

message: would have it that there's a forerunner to the Beaufort scale, so the para At that  time [...] there was no scale and so they could be very subjective might want amending. The page is already in the references. 193.62.203.214 15:27, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Table of degrees" 

message: I believe an image near the top of the page makes an article look nicer. I've added a cut version of the force 12 picture (cut: without the text underneath). An anonymous user has deleted it, and I now reinstate it once so we can discuss here whether a picture is appropriate, and if so, whether this is a suitable picture. Classical geographer 20:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, it's good. Anon edit could well have been vandalism or a test. Debivort 03:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Image

message: For simplicity, why not just peg Beaufort forces 12 through 16 to the Saffir-Simpson hurricane scale? --  Denelson83  01:07, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beaufort scale in the North Atlantic 

message: Does anyone know what 'mean' wind speed is meant?  Is it the 10 minute mean that is common now or the one hour mean wind that used to be more common?  Subsea (talk) 15:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Mean winds?

message: I think it needs a mention that a force 12 wind - hurricane force - is not the same as a hurricane.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.8.194.2 (talk) 08:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Hurricane Force

message: The wind speed in the scale for force 4 is 20 – 28 knots, yet in the image its 11 - 16 knots. Seems to be different in almost all of them, something wrong here?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.198.161.74 (talk) 15:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: One is km/h, and one is knots. 45.40.66.167 (talk) 21:44, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Difference in article 

message: I think the new table looks fine, but I wouldn't suggest adding any more images to it. Might as well stay with the consistently formatted set.  de Bivort 22:40, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  new format 

message: The article has red links to every possible wind speed. I would be glad to create articles for some of them, but wonder if all they meet criteria for WP:Notability. Also every name given to that speed contains a link, which may tempt editors to create redundant articles. Already articles have been made lacking verifiable material. Let me know if you have solutions.
24.184.234.24 (talk) 17:15, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sub-article 

message: The source page for all the images, http://www.crh.noaa.gov/mkx/ghwo/windseas_levels.php, does not exist anymore. Attys (talk) 21:36, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broken links 

message: Surely the purpose of the Beaufort Scale is to describe the conditions of the sea and not wind speed? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 11:27, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I think it's a wind speed scale with cues taken from the sea state. If you were on a small oiled pond with 56 knot winds, it would still be force 11, even though the sea state might be pretty mild.  de Bivort 01:45, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  A WMO report dated from 1970 [The Beaufort Scale of Wind Force: Technical and Operational Aspects (reports on marine science affairs, Report No. 3)] defines Force 11 as 'Exceptionally high waves (small and medium sized ships might be for a time lost to view behind the waves); the sea is completely covered with long white patches of foam lying in the direction of the wind; everywhere the edges of the wave crests are blown into froth; visibility affected'.  I see no mention of wind speed there.  Is there an alternative WMO definition that defines Beaufort Force in terms of wind speed? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 12:35, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  NOAA calls it the Beaufort Wind Scale: http://www.spc.noaa.gov/faq/tornado/beaufort.html, with associated conditions on land, where there is no sea state.  de Bivort 19:36, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree that the Beaufort scale on land differs from that at sea.  I agree also that the NOAA definition of "Beaufort Scale" is relevant, but to me this table does not look to like it is intended to be used as a definition.  The question  then necomes, does NOAA publish something equivalent to the WMO report, with a clear description of what is meant by (eg) "Beaufort Force 11"? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 09:29, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I found this WMO document, which seems relevant (see Appendix E) . It does mention wind speeds (though note some of these differ from those listed in the WP article), but what's not clear to me is (in the event of inconsistencies between different columns) which column is to be interpreted as definition and which columns are derived from that definition. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 11:47, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  This publication makes it clear that the scale represents wind *conditions* and not wind speed: "The original Beaufort scale of wind force is a scale that does not present the actual velocity with which the air moves. It is merely a scale of wind conditions that was used by sailors to categorize the different sailing conditions." Dondervogel 2 (talk) 10:25, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I rephrased the opening statement to make it reflect better what it says in the references. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 18:26, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does Beaufort Scale describes sea conditions or wind speed? 

message: I don't think these should necessarily be included in the article.  The flags are part of the Coastal Warning Display Program, which is based off of warnings based off of the Beaufort scale, but it's not actually part of the Beaufort scale.  I think including them may be misleading to people and make it appear that the flags are actually part of the scale. Inks.LWC (talk) 22:59, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Associated Warning Flags 

message: Not sure if this is worth noting, but the UK Met Office uses "severe gale" and not "strong gale" for F9. 86.132.137.179 (talk) 14:45, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Severe gale 

message: I couldn't find the information that Germany uses the extended Beaufort scale at the indicated link just added.  Moreover, Beaufort-Skala from the same website strongly suggests that it does not.  Carolina wren (talk) 01:48, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Just realized that the edit was only referencing Germany's use of the basic scale.  Still, I'm going to change the link, since the original link is to an index page for framed vocabulary entries. Carolina wren (talk) 01:56, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Germany 

message: The table's contents appear to be unreferenced and the descriptions of sea and land conditions to vary from that given in the Met Office reference, e.g for Force 2, a Light Breeze, the Met Office states (p.9):
 Small wavelets, still short but more pronounced. 
 Crests have a glassy appearance and do not break
whereas wiki's version reads:
 Small wavelets. Crests of glassy appearance, not breaking
Similar perhaps but still unnecessary OR imo, unless there is another more authorative source being used ...
LookingGlass (talk) 12:51, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just noticed this post. My source reads 
 Small wavelets, still short but more pronounced; crests have a glassy appearance and do not break
Punctuation apart this is identical to the MO version cited above by LookingGlass. I will edit the article accordingly. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 17:43, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I updated the entries for force 0, 1 and 2.  I have the impression the whole table needs editing, but I stopped at 2. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 05:08, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

text: Thanks for that Dondervogel 2.  Re-reading my comment now it seems like such a small omission to note, however re-reading the table I remember struggling to distinguish between Force 1 and Force 2 without it.  Your work is appreciated.  LookingGlass (talk) 10:59, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table contents unreferenced 

message: The so-called "Extended scales" that someone keeps adding to this article bears no relation to the Beaufort scale.  If there is a need in the Pacific Ocean to invent a new scale for wind speed exceeding 527 km/h that "is definitely destructive, wiping out entire regions... And it is not described in any words", then that new scale deserves an article in its own right.  It does not belong here. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 05:18, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it should be discounted, because it was poorly translated. We have editors that we can call on to help with translations. I think this is the best place for the content. That being said, we ought to give a closer look at the sources to verify whether they are being used or are just made up. Maybe I can run a Google translate to see if anything meaningful can be picked up about them. Jolly Ω Janner 05:43, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree that poor translation on its own is not enough to discount it, so let's just assume for a moment this is for real, and not the figment of someone's imagination.  A glance at the table shows that hurricane force winds (Beaufort Force 12) arise at about force 10 on this other scale.  Therefore it is not the Beaufort scale and does not belong here. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 07:49, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Their wind speeds match up perfectly. They both have force 12 as winds over 118 km/h. At least the version in the most recent addition. Do you have any other reasons to discount it? Jolly Ω Janner 08:06, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I was going by the description "high sea waves from 7 – 9 meters", which compares with > 14 m for a hurricane on the Beaufort Scale.  In any case, the Beaufort scale is defined by the descriptions, not the wind speeds.  The descriptions are different.  Therefore by definition it is not the Beaufort scale. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 10:51, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  @Jolly I see the nonsense has returned. I do not plan to remove it again myself but will support anyone who does.  It is possible that the anon. user is not aware of our discussion on the Talk page. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 06:34, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: No need, I have reverted it myself. I ran the sources through a Google translate and can only find fleeting mentions of news articles using the scales themselves. We already know (and document) that some countries in Asia use an extended to force 18. This source appears to mention a storm reach level 19. Either way, none of the sources give descriptions for the experienced conditions, so this is to be assumed original research for now. Sorry to have wasted time on the matter. I will warn the user of edit warring while I'm at it, since they have a rather authoritative tone. Jolly Ω Janner 06:53, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 10:02, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enough nonsense 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: There are two tables outlining the beaufort scale on the page. The top table describes the scale with more units, and is multi-media. The lower scale adds nothing additional in that all the information is already available in the top table. I cannot fathom why this page needs to have two copies of the beaufort scale, and therefore am being bold and deleting the lower one. -- cmhTC 02:56, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed second copy of beaufort scale table 

message: I'm making changes for the following reasons:
* Rowspans are for making a cell span multiple rows.  A typical use case is for grouping together multiple rows of data.  Here, they are not really multiple rows of data, but multiple values entered in individual cells, which don't correlate between columns.  As such, it's better for logic, simplicity and maintainability to have them in individual rows.
* The formatting was inconsistent.  In particular, 0 Calm had the wind speed and wave height formatted differently from the others.  It should be consistent.
* When table cell values are short, it works well to put them on one line in the markup.  But in this instance, some of the values are quite long, so I've figured it would be better for maintainability to have each cell on a separate line.
— Smjg (talk) 12:51, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table formatting