Talk:Sex magic

message: I wasn't sure if this was vandalism or not, but I reverted it anyway, in case anyone wanted to know. - Akamad Merry Christmas to all! 03:26, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It seemed like vandalism due to the big removal of information at the end of the article. - Akamad Merry Christmas to all! 03:36, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible vandalism 

message: I added an expansion request because this article is really too short and doesn't explain anything;
*The section about the "Teachings of the Gnostic White Lodge" is more confusing than anything else,
*It looks to me like an advertisement, particularly since all of the links given are external links,
*The introduction is nothing short from POV,
*The bulk of the article is a list of books, all of which are by a single author (even if it's Crowley).
If someone has the time to write a bit about what sex magic is, that would be great. IronChris  |  (talk) 08:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Err, White adept, could you explain why you removed so much material from this article, please? IronChris  |  (talk) 08:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Expand

message: Can anyone explain why there is just a list of books for this section? This is in no way encyclopedic. His books are already listed in two places (Works of Aleister Crowley and Libri of Aleister Crowley. Zos 05:21, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. IronChris  |  (talk) 14:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this section seems to read more like an ad than anything else. If there is no objection, I move that it should simply be deleted. Should there even be a section that lists books at all? I feel that that's still going to be bordering on advertizing, no matter how it's written. Instead, the main mention of books should probably be in the context of sources for the content of the article. Other thoughts? romarin [talk ] 05:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Its my opinion that if books are given, why not use the books to make cited statements? This would first, save the section, second add more to the article itself (and credibility), and third, the books would remain, but only in the sources or reference header. Zos 15:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have the books in question? I don't, and it's kind of hard to cite from a source that you don't have. If you do have them, and want to go ahead with this, please do. I still think that for the moment, these books should be removed as they are not helping things and, as you already pointed out, they are listed elsewhere. romarin [talk ] 16:04, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sex magic and Crowley 

message: Friends,
What is described in the page are the rites of the teneberous ones- black magic in its most grotesque form. Sex, the ninth sphere is ineffably divine and if abused results in terrible karmic consequences. 
I urge you to go through the book "The Perfect Matrimony" and the teachings on the page http://www.gnosis-usa.com
http://www.gnosiscentral.com/englishbooks/Perfect_Matrimony.pdf
also the books available here:
http://www.americangnosticassociation.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=67&Itemid=4
That is why I blanked some of the content. If we take such black teachings to the people, we ourselves will have to bear the karmic burden - how many souls will we have lead down the wrong path?
White adept 03:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow.....Zos 03:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop blanking this article to insert your propaganda. See  what wikipedia is not to learn more about ways in which you can contribute to this encyclopedia. Further blanking will be considered vandalism and you may be blocked from editing. romarin [talk ] 04:08, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Apart from anything else, White adept, your point of view is clear. I don't think you are wrong about the article being biased, but I don't think you are exactly neutral either. Please, when or if you edit the article, supply your knowlegde, not your beliefs. Thank you. -- Ec5618 11:14, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Black Rites

message: I just wanted to give a heads up that I am going expand this article according to the techniques taught by Samael Aun Weor. Being that his use of the phrase refers to an act that is more or less diametrically opposite to the content of this article, the introduction may have to become more generalized and other sections (namely Practice) will have to be partitioned in order to accurately describe different types of sexual magic. I understand that non-occult and even occult anglophones almost exclusively associate sexual magic with the type described in this article (and, in fact, never even have heard of Samael Aun Weor), being that nearly every one of his 70 books describe sexual magic explicitly (dating back to 1950 with The Perfect Matrimony), and schools that teach his doctrine exist in the thousands around the entire world, I feel the article is incomplete without a proper inclusion of his teachings. Thanks. --Paul Stone 14:03, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: @Paul Stone Thanks for this material!  However, so many of the terms and concepts will be unfamiliar to most readers, that to them your summary of his teachings may appear simply to be confusing or gibberish.  Please consider editing this section to provide a more basic understanding of his tenets.  Interested readers can then refer to the article on Samael Aun Weor for further information. yoyo (talk) 20:26, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Samael Aun Weor 

message: "Like Aleister Crowley before him,[14][15][16] Weor stated that the supreme mantra of sexual magic is IAO"
What specific lines of Liber ABA, Liber Samekh, or Liber XV does it state that the supreme mantra of sexual magic is IAO? It must be a clear and specific reference (meaning not hidden as esoteric symbolism), otherwise it is WP:OR. I am not saying a it does not exist, only that I cannot find any such reference. Either way really, Crowely's use of IAO belongs in his own section. --T. Baphomet 13:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I agree with Hanuman Das. The formula IAO was central to Crowley's system and is the central formula in Crowley's Gnostic Mass. I'm quite sure that other references can be found. Sorry that you don't want to admit that Weor's use of IAO is not original, but them's the breaks. -999 (Talk) 14:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 999, this has nothing to do with not admitting "that Weor's use of IAO is not original." I am aware of the dates of the publications listed. The point I was making before has to do with a sentence that states IAO is the supreme mantra of sexual magic because that is the way the sentence is phrased in the article. SAW states this in his works numerous times in such a fashion so it is stated as such in the article. If A.C. said this, so be it, but a correct and valid reference must be listed. Either way, those references for that sentence are not valid because nowhere (that I can find) in those references is the notion expressed that IAO is the best/supreme/superior mantra for sexual magic. If such a reference is easy to find then there should be no problem listing it, but like I said before, it should be in his own section. If one wishes to elaborate that IAO is central to Crowley's system and therefore must be a central part of sexual magic, then again that belongs in his own section, and only if the proper references stating such can be located. --T. Baphomet 16:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed the offending sentence to reference Krumm-Heller, because it is more accurate to say that it is like Krumm-Heller's use. T. Baphomet 13:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Provide a source that states that the supreme mantra of sexual magic is I.A.O. or cease this revert nonsense. It is of no consequence that that "IAO was central to Crowley's system;" what matters is (1) the mantra IAO, (2) that specific usage of the IAO as it is stating the Samael Aun Weor section, and (3) that is it the greatest mantra to use with sexual magic. Otherwise, the use by Weor is NOT like the use by Crowley. --T. Baphomet 16:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  IAO 

message: Of all the topics to come up now, I'm going to be adding this topic, partially to the OTO section. I know for a fact that a few other users will be coming over in the near future to deny and try to change it. Thus I am giving warning first :) SynergeticMaggot 17:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think there is any need to mention Freemasonry in this article, as none of the sex magic of OTO was derived from Masonic sources. Let's leave the Masonic business to the main article... -999 (Talk) 17:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh well. I added it before I noticed it was addressed on the talk page. I think it needs to remain anyway. It serves as a base for the OTO and they're sex magic, and its relevance. SynergeticMaggot 17:57, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh well. I guess we can expect the Masonic Inquisition any time now... -999 (Talk) 17:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm thinking they must check the "what links here" button alot, which is how they tend to show up in the first place on so many article we link Freemasonry to. I'm thinking about just getting it over and letting them know its here, so we can be done with it. SynergeticMaggot 18:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Nobody expects the Masonic Inquisition! -999 (Talk) 18:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Watching too much Monty Python? I expect them! SynergeticMaggot 18:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Come now! Surely it's not possible to watch too much Monty Python! -999 (Talk) 18:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure there is. And for disagreeing, The Knights who say...require a masonic shrubbary! SynergeticMaggot 18:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

text: One that looks nice ... and not too expensive, but trimmed into the shape of a Templar castle? -999 (Talk) 18:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Freemasonry 

message: It's not typical on Wikipedia to include long quotes in citations. Typically, the book and chapter or page number are given and that is thought to be sufficient. I propose taking the long quotations out, creating a list of references, and making the citations short notes as to which reference was used and where in the reference the related text can be found. This sort of thing can get out of hand quickly... -999 (Talk) 19:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll agree to this, the reference section is a bit out of hand. SynergeticMaggot 19:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I was in fact going to say something similar to this before. Or we could remove it all to the talk page, and let the user's who added it, add it back in later, properly. SynergeticMaggot 22:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Long quotes in citations 

message: Quotes should be limited to a paragraph or two. Certainly a whole section should not be a quote. Krumm-Heller's beliefs should be summarized in the editors own words. A brief quote could be used if needed. —Hanuman Das 13:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Krumm-Heller 

message: This section seems to me, and I believe other editors, as being unsourced, and thus potentially removable, as well as being unbalanced. There is no point in saying "they don't know what they're talking about" in an encyclopedia article until after you have indicated what "they" say, and, at present, this article does not contain such information. Unless some indication as to what the nature of the criticism of this belief/practice is is inserted, I believe the existing content of this section could very easily be deleted, particularly as long as it remains unsourced. John Carter (talk) 17:26, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I Agree... no need to "rebut" criticisms that are not mentioned... on the other hand, if there are criticisms of Sex magic, the article should probably mention them (properly sourced of course.) Blueboar (talk) 16:23, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: An IP has deleted it, and I for one don't intend to put it back. Looie496 (talk) 21:18, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I "vote" to surely Keep the article. The article has many redeeming areas, especially of interest to Wicca and Crowley editors. Sex magic is an important part of some traditions, and the sources on the Crowley data seem fine. Keep it around, or rename it Sex Magick and let the Thelema people edit it. Aleister Wilson (talk) 21:10, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Have put on the Thelema template and listed it as high importance, and since it's on the template as well I expect more editors will work on it too. I'll do an edit sweep of the page soon. Thanks again, Aleister Wilson (talk) 21:18, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Just reread the article, and the only section not very well sourced is the lead, and the excellent sources an links later on the page include all or most of the data in the lead. It's just a matter of moving up some source. Please look further into the article for sources, you will find plenty, with more to come. If the article seems unbalanced, what is the balance point? Please advise. Aleister Wilson (talk) 21:29, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Have edited the article, done pov edits, wiki links, added data, expanded the See also section, etc. Will remove the dispute notice for now. Hopefully the editor of the long biased section will realize that the data was long-winded and non-pov. Thanks, Aleister Wilson (talk) 22:51, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism section 

message: First place for expansion of this article might be to add some references to the works of Paschal Beverly Randolph & Louis T. Culling. I might try to work on this over the next days if I get the chance. Oh, I just knocked it down to Class C on Thelema, it's certainly nowhere near B class IMHO. --Rodneyorpheus (talk) 21:08, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Randolph & Culling 

message: Neotantra is a North American and European term for the New Age and modern Western interpretations of traditional Indian and Buddhist tantra.  Some of its proponents utilize ancient and traditional texts and principlesYoga Spandakarika: The Sacred Texts at the Origins of Tantra, Daniel Odier (2004)The Yoga of Delight, Wonder, and Astonishment, A Translation of the Vijnaya-bhairava, Jaideva Singh, Motilal Banarsidass Publisher (1991), and many others use neotantra as a catch-all phrase for "sacred sexuality", and may incorporate unorthodox practices. In addition, not all of the elements of Indian tantra are used in neotantric practices, in particular the reliance on a guru, guruparampara.
As tantric practice was introduced in western culture at the end of the 18th century and its popularity has escalated since the 1960s. It is often identified with its sexual methods, overlooking its essential nature as a spiritual practice. The roles of sexuality in tantra and in neotantra, while related, reflect substantial differences in their cultural contexts.
Neotantric sexual practices involve the experience of subtle energies within the adherent's sensual body, energies which they believe can enhance pleasure and challenge the ego into dissolution. Practitioners may aspire to cultivate an ecstatic cosmic consciousness and increased spiritual awareness of the erotic body. These methods are sacred rituals that may be practiced solo, in partnership, or in groups.  These methods are often passed down from more experienced practitioners to students as secret oral tradition.  Traditionally, these methods are part of a more comprehensive spiritual discipline—the erotic aspects of tantra cannot be authentically practiced without adequate preparation through meditation.
—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 00:45, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Neotantra

message: Why is there a link to "Embryonic Stem Cells" in the see also section. I get there is a vague link because of the sex thing, but its about as flimsy a link as possible.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.197.152 (talk) 15:39, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Stem cells link, why?

message: Article seems to place "sex magic" within a context of Western spiritualism (with a nod to Hindu and Buddhist tantric traditions as sources for the same).  There seems to be no recognition of the role of sexual magical practices in other traditional cultures, despite decades of anthropological research showing a significant rôle for these in Africa, Oceania and the Americas.  I think this omission presents a biased or at best incomplete view of the actuality of sex magic across cultures and throughout history.  Needs the attention of experts to redress this imbalance. yoyo (talk) 10:14, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other traditional cultures