Talk:Great power/Archive 3

message: Denmark used to be listed as a former great power.  During the Dutch Revolt Denmark became powerful, with economic growth.  Denmark was also a major player in the 30 Years War.  I think that Denmark should be put back on the list.Casey14 23:56, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Denmark?

message: I've semi-protected this page to deal with the anon William M. Connolley 09:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. Best Regards, Signaturebrendel 16:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi protected 

message: In the opening paragraph it states that: "The United States of America is not considered a great power, but a superpower." We do, however list the US as we should. I have revised the sentence to read the US is also considered a superpower. In my opinion being a superpower implies you being a great power. Signaturebrendel 16:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: USA

message: I propose removing India from the Modern Great Power listings.  Nobleeagle has provided us with some references that show it is not thought of as a Great Power (see below). JJx2 06:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, we got sufficient sources for that one. Regards, Signaturebrendel 07:17, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have some feeling you control this page and/or WP?  What makes you believe you have the right to say what we have is sufficient and when the case is closed?  WP is about continuous improvement, not stopping and locking the door when your particular POV has been met. JJx2 09:07, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Look, I got sources that explicitly stated that India, China, Germany and Japan were at or very near Great Power status (the fact that you have ignored the remainder of the sources proves your POV-pushing intentions). I also presented sources stating that Italy is a Middle power, not Great, it is a Middle power. So unless you can find a source that explicitly states that Italy is a Great power. You have no argument. Nobleeagle  (Talk) 07:26, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your reaction is right on key Nobleeagle -- no surpises.  First, you simply ignore the references you just posted that strongly contradict India's status.  Second, you try and turn around things to say it is me (or everyone else who doesn't feel India has even reached Great Power status) is "POV-pushing".  You my friend are the POV-pusher -- and you are doing it full force.  You just ignored references YOU YOURSELF posted and say I'm pushing POV by pointing them out??  That means I actually read them, you did not.  You both seriously need to set aside even five minutes to consider how you approach what is supposed to be a non-biased factual resource; not an opportunity to promote your own nations.  I for one am rather sad to see the way you two, in particular, use WP.  It is a secondary issue when coming to this particular project.  I for one have enough confidence in myself that I don't need to be so extreme to push if my nations of origin are listed on WP as a Great Power. *rolls eyes*  I assume for quite a few others the opposite appears to be true (and rather glaringly).  By the way, we are not talking China, Japan, Italy, etc. here.  We are discussing INDIA.  Note the title of this section.  Thanks, good day. JJx2 09:05, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, the first source that you are claiming disproves my point is written in the early 1990s, in this it is written that India "appears poised to achieve the status that Nehru envisaged for it", the title is India: The Fourth Great Power. It then goes on to talk about India's Military Might, ends up writing quite a lot about the favourable aspects of India. But you concentrate on only the last paragraph. Which details some of the things India has to combat with. The second source you comment on simply says that India is on the India is on the verge of becoming a great power and the swing state in the international system. As a large, multiethnic, economically powerful, non-Western democracy, it will play a key role in the great struggles of the coming years. Washington has recognized the potential of a U.S.-Indian alliance, but translating that potential into reality will require engaging India on its own terms.. How this calls India a middle power I do not understand. Thanks. Nobleeagle  (Talk) 07:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See this is a major example of where this page is a total disaster.  This is just a squable over India now, and it looks to be very personal-agenda motivated.  I see it in Nobleeage, and probably in JJx2 also.  Like I said below, I do not believe India is a Great Power at this point.  But that is just it, my opinion doesn't matter at this stage.  If I go out on Google and find 10 articles that say so, because I'm looking for articles that say YES (not NO), that is called biased-research.  We must either go with non-political groups that list current Great Powers, or nothing at all (yes, even remove the page).  The only alternative I would agree with in the meantime would be going with the former Group of Seven, just because this is a well-recognized group that contains the most powerful/wealthy nations in the World. 192.45.72.26 19:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  India 

message: I leave an historical reconstruction about the concept of great power and its use, I hope it will be useful for who wants to arrange the article 
The historical concept of “Great Power” was probably settled during the Industrial era (Nineteenth century) and it is typically centered on the European system of states, but the concept was formed in the European conscience during the whole Modern era, nearby at the idea of balance of power (a concept “invented” during the Fifteenth century among the diplomacy of Italian states).
*So we can see that during the Sixteenth Century the great powers of Europe were Spain, France and Ottoman Empire; Spain obtained the supremacy at the end of the Wars of Italy (peace of Cateau Cambresis 1559) and after that France collapsed under the Religion wars; meantime the Ottomans continued their expansion to the west fiercely contained by Venice; (in the same times England was able to preserve her independence but was too weak compared to the others; Poland was a very great country but still confined on the east, a country that rarely participated at the system and was also divided inside and with a weak elected monarchy, especially after the extinction of the Jagellons dynasty; Portugal was annexed by Spain in 1580; the House of Austria, after the  abdication of Charles V and the division in two dynastic lines, was weak and not able to command over the Holy Roman Empire, especially after the Protestant Reformation; Russia was far away to participate at the system; the others were simply too weak).
*During the Seventeenth Century France recovered and surpassed Spain (Thirty Years War 1618-1648, Peace of Pyrenees 1659), that still remained a weakened great power until the end of the century; after the civil war Great Britain became surely another great power (1688); in the same time and for a little period the Netherlands and Sweden joined the group of the great; the Ottoman Empire launched its last assault to the west but was definitely blocked by Austria, that after the reconquest of Hungary and Transylvania (1683-1699) became another great power;
*At the start of the Eighteenth Century Russia did her apparition on the Europe scene taking the place of Sweden among the great powers (War of the North 1700-1721), at the same time the Spanish War of Succession weakened definitely Spain (from this moment Spain lost progressively her status). During the century also the Netherlands and the Ottoman Empire lost gradually their status. Finally, at the middle of the century, Prussia became the last great power (after the Seven Years War 1756-1763).
*At the start of the Nineteenth Century (after the French Revolution and the Period of Napoleon) five great powers were recognized in the European concert at Vienna (1815): Great Britain, Russia, France, Austria and Prussia. By the end of the century and after the unification of Italy and Germany, this two countries joined them (the second took the place of Prussia). During the century the Ottoman Empire lost its status and became the sick power of Europe.
*After the First World War (1918) Austria vanished as great power, USSR took the place of Russia and two extra european countries joined the group: United States and Japan.
*After the Second World War Germany, Japan and Italy lost their status and United States, United Kingdom, France, USSR and China, as winners of the war, were recognized as Great Power. But really only USA and USSR were great, so the world became bipolar and the two were indicated as Superpowers (and the concept of Great Power lost interest as a topic on the international debate, especially on the european terminology). 
*After the end of Cold War only USA remained as superpower and so the country was also indicated as an Hyperpower. On an inferior level than USA the others old winners of the Second World War (China, France, UK) were joined by a weakened Russia as heir of USSR, and also were joined in some manners by Germany, Japan and Italy that were able to recover gradually their weight during the last thirty years. And perhaps India in the last ten years was able to join the group. This group of eight countries is today important in the international scene, but their weight is very far than the weight of USA (for example the sum of their military spending can’t much the American). Now we can apply to them the old concept of Great Powers, because they were important (the most important countries in the world after the USA), but not securely as it was devised before the Second World War. (Apologize me if my English is not perfect...) Kayac1971 23:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The historical concept of “Great Power”