Talk:Akatsuki (Naruto)/Archive 10

message: OK - the deletion review endorsed the deletion of the original list of Akatsuki members.  This means that all the information in this article that isn't sourced properly (and that means not to a primary source - i.e. the game itself) is subject to deletion at any time.  I'm not going to decimate the article now, I'll give the editors here a week to source the article correctly in line with Wikipedia guidelines.  So - it's your choice, folks - instead of arguing about trivia, let's get this article into a state where it deserves to stay on Wikipedia. ELIMINATORJR 01:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You just want this article merged, don'tcha? Nothing here is unreferenced, and the series and databooks are third party references. Delete it and I'll bring it back, despite whatever complaints the admins make. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The series and databooks are not third party references - they are primary sources from which the subject material is derived, and thus do not meet WP:FICT's requirements. In any case, saving the articles is perfectly fine as long as you do not recreate them, which as Eliminator pointed out below, makes it subject to deletion under CSD G4. Also note that if you do recreate the pages, you may be subject to a block. Furthermore, please assume good faith with Eliminator. He is as willing as anyone here to keep this article; however, WP:FICT does need to be upheld, and it is our job to attempt to ensure that it is. If we cannot keep this article, then deal with it. Recreate the article when such sources are discovered. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 21:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah while I don't like what Eliminator is doing, he is so far one of the FEW admins who've actually spoken to us like equals, I.E. Given us a chance to figure out just what the fudge we have to do to save the article, not show up with a AfD and say "This isn't a place for you Fanbois go to the Naruto Wiki!" (I made the last part up. A little pick me up.) so everyone lets lay off the messenger.--TheUltimate3 21:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, assume good faith. The AfD brought up a valid concern over the notability of the article under WP:FICT, which was then endorsed at deletion review. The material merged here was preferable in any case. As per Jimbo's statements, admins are not "higher" than you, and your statements give the impression that you are providing a blanket assumption of bad faith to all administrators, which is definitely not warranted. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 23:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was assuming good faith with Eliminator. However I can argue that admins are "higher" than me (and a few others as well) by the mere fact that they have Policy to back them up, while all I have is gut feeling. Policy trumps Gut Feeling thus they are higher than me. I will B and Moan but thats the honest truth that I have to live with. Though while the "Fanbois" statement was ment to make the obvious bleak situation more bareable before as we lose one day to the seemingly "Nothing can stop the envitable" deletion of the Akatsuki page I do remember a while back someone did actually say in the midst of the Deletion Chronicles "Go to the Naruto wiki" so thats where the joke came from.--TheUltimate3 23:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If anyone had policy backing them on a decision, then they would generally be on the winning side of the argument, unless following policy in such a case would be nonsensical to the point where WP:IAR would apply. Being an administrator has nothing to do with it. The only difference is that administrators tend to have a greater grasp of policy and its application than non-administrators do, as per the exacting standards at WP:RFA. And if this article is deleted, then we'll deal with it, and possibly fix List of Naruto villains to incorporate elements of this page, possibly stripping many of the utterly minor and redundant characters out in the process. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 23:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't think this page needs to be deleted - it's certainly got some notability as a stand-alone article, it just needs tidying up, spurious detail stripping out, and (of course) sourcing properly. ELIMINATORJR 14:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah. Discussion got carried away too far to the point where I lost the original intent of your message. My bad. In any case, there's no reason my suggestions below shouldn't be implemented, and the stripping of in-universe details wouldn't be a bad thing. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 17:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

text: And toss the info of the Akatsuki Organization, like their goal, the rings and the like?--TheUltimate3 23:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There needs to be nothing more than a short review. It's a large mess of in-universe information that can be reduced. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 01:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So what you are suggesting,is that we have a list of villains that,bear with me here,says almost nothing about who they are,what they do,or why they're considered villains in the first place.Just a list saying they're villains.That about it?Lastbetrayal 02:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I fail to see how that information cannot be condensed into a paragraph or two. If you cut out the extraneous details, then it's fine. In any case, that is a final resort should we be unable to add sources relating third party coverage of this topic, and is suitable given the circumstances. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 03:56, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ummm.... I just noticed, you called this a game. Akatsuki is a fictional organization in the manga and anime series Naruto. I don't think that fictional book series (manga and comics and others count) and all sub-pages (which this is, to the Naruto article) can't use the series itself as a source. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 14:19, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I never called Akatsuki a game. I also never said that primary sources could not be used. I'm merely pointing to the fact that only primary sources do not satisfy WP:FICT. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 17:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

text: WP:IAR is only implemented in the strictest of circumstances, where there exists almost overwhelming consensus to ignore rules in order to improve the encyclopedia. This isn't really the case. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 20:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He's right, everything can be put in two-paragraphs, (one-sentence, actually), but that doesn't mean they should. And we don't have only primary sources, only "just about everyone of them is a primary source but we still have other sources so it doesn't count". Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:36, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion review 

message: Should we say how he was once a father and a husnad, also those clone like things?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.223.202.247 (talk) 21:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He killed the leader of Amegakure's family (Hanzou the Salamander), not his own. σмgнgσмg 03:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

text: And what's the text on the bottom of the capsules? One looks like the Hokage symbol. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 15:35, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When said like that, yes in a way, he DID lead a faction, he also, however, managed to win single handedly, without their help. They wear the headband with a scar through it, why wouldn't they be from the village? Why else would they wear Rain ninja headbands unless that was where they were from? Sovenjers? I think not! But, put into wiki perspective, we can't say for certain that he didnt, so it shouldn't be changed. Chipmonk328 10 September 2007  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.107.129 (talk) 17:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pein, a father

message: maybe those clone things are the 5 former members plus one  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.242.129.200 (talk) 01:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: NOTE!: DON'T leave a space before you're comment, as it will only stretch the page. Anyway, he also stepped in the capsule things, too. And we should avoid anything on it until the next chapter comes out. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:21, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The clones  

message: what is the spelling of his name? Pain or Pein, in manga chapter 369 they use Pain, but in the rest they use Pein, does anyone know?....this is such a pain, sorry just had to say that--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 08:16, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's Pein. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, it has to be Pein, we are following the direct translation. σмgнgσмg 09:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: pein sounds better anyway--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 09:18, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pain or Pein? 

message: Just needs a small image for the active members now.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.178.62.159 (talk) 10:59, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Basically "Blah Blah blah too many". Pein should have an image, though, and chapter 369 has a very good pic of him without balloons or anything. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 13:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: you mean page 14, when he says "it was judgment"?--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 13:52, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the usefulness of having the images there greatly exceeds the 5 or so seconds time that can be shaved off them for loading.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.178.62.159 (talk) 14:40, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All of them are in the spread except Sasori. Pein's face wasn't seen, so he's a keep too. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 15:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: well someone else will have to revert my revert as i have reverted 2 times today--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 15:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page is looking good 

message: Didn't we find a way to while keeping the Reflist, making it smaller by hiding most of it. Just curious because I thought we finnally found one.--TheUltimate3 18:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It made references not work. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A way to hide the long Ref list? 

message: One of the Japanese characters on one of the capsules means one (The one Pein entered). Another says six (across from Pein's capsule).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.50.107 (talk) 21:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Words on Pein's Capsules 

message: Ummm, there's a discussion here about changing the character template. Since no one will likely ever look there, I thought it should've been mentioned here, the most commonly edited talk page, so it'll be more than three people. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 21:56, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Template

message: Um...on Sasori's dscription of his poison, it says that it kills unless a truly great medical-nin is there. Shouldn't you say that Sakura is the only person who ever figured out the antidote due to it's very difficult recipe? just a thought 209.137.230.93 22:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we don't know for sure if Sakura is the only person to figure out the recipe. Given that she underwent training for only two years, it's doubtful that she'll be making great strides in the medical field. It could be possible, but since Wikipedia centers on verifiability, and we have no way to check that fact thoroughly enough, it's best to stay with what we currently have. I'm not so sure about what you mean by your parenthetical statement, but you didn't seem to do anything wrong. Thank you for your questions. Regards, You Can't Review Me!!! 22:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok, I just thought I'd mention it. My statement was because i wasn't sure what those tildes did and i wasn't sure if i put em' in the right place. Kakashi The Mirror Ninja 22:50, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I beg to differ. She trained under Tsunade. Meaning her training was anything but average for a medical Nin. And Chiyo baa-sama saw that in Sakura. She could very likely HAVE learned that much in such a short time. As odd as that sounds, that is what I belive. If you look at it, you might see what I mean. Chipmonk328 13 September 2007  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.107.129 (talk) 12:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stupid little detail people 

message: glad to see some third-party references appearing now.  BTW, if you need references from Japanese sources, it might be worth visiting WikiProject Japan, you might find someone willing to help out. ELIMINATORJR 15:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: First of all, do not yell at me for bringing this discussion up.  I am simply an editor - and reader - who has some concerns about this article.  I remained out of the image dispute earlier because I knew something like this would happen.
Anywho.  Here's what I propose:
#Add a facial picture of only Pein and Konan, because they cannot be seen clearly in the group picture.
#Add a picture for Sasori because he isn't even in the group picture.
And might I add that three (small) extra pictures - especially on an article this large - discussing the topic at hand that are not portrayed anywhere else would not in any way be a gallery, for those who would try to throw that in my face. Of course, feel free to disagree with me, or agree if you are inclined to.  I am simply attempting to improve this article. --~|ET|~(Talk|Contribs) 21:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is but how I view things. Just as I am entitled to my opinion, so are you. Perhaps I just shouldn't have said it.  But, that is not what I want to be discussed here, so the comment has since been removed. --~|ET|~(Talk|Contribs) 22:50, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Image Amendments

message: In this chapter, Jiraiya reveals to one of his frogs that the Nine-tailed Fox was released by Madara Uchiha himself (The clan's founder), to attack the Leaf Village. The frog says that's crazy, as Madara was around during the time of the village's foundation. Madara was supposedly killed by the Fist Hokage at the Valley of the End. A statue of Madara was built there (shown during Naruto vs. Sasuke). Despite the frog saying it's crazy that Madara is still alive, Jiraiya says that he has a bad feeling about this (Jiraiya is supposedly gonna go fight Pein). Elsewhere, we see Tobi staring down at the image of Madara! His sharingan eye then begins to glow. Now, we know what Madara looks like. I'm not sure if this further reinforces that Tobi is Madara or not. Anyway, more secrets are revealed in chapter 370. I just wanted to mention Akatsuki-related stuff.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.50.107 (talk) 01:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then get your spoilers straight.  He speculates that someone may have summoned the Kyuubi on Konoha and mentions that Madara had summoned the Kyuubi on a prior occasion. –Gunslinger47 01:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually, I don't which dumbasses decided Tobi was Madara, considering even the best translations show that he says he has Madara's power, not the he is Madara. Also, he said that the only person able to summon the Kyuubi was Madara, so it would only make sense if the Kyuubi summoning at Naruto's birth was a result of Tobi using his power to do so.  All text declaring that Tobi is Madara should be edited and kept that way. --
71.237.88.74 21:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, the best translations say that he is calling himself Madara. You're not reading the best translations. The Splendiferous Gegiford 23:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ch. 370 

message: Should we put what the side says for kohan http://saiyanisland.com/370/?a=view&id=&image=1
:Why? It's a waste of space. -- Cathy
:First of all, its Konan and not Kohan. And that phrase doesn't describe anything about her Enoch08 07:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Kohan

message: In part 1(before the time skip), some rain genin did attend the chunin exam in konoha but it appears clear that in part 2, the pein had conquered the rain village. with this fact, it seems to show that the rain village was destroyed (or at least conquered) by pein around the timeskip. However, what makes it unclear to me is that the akatzuki may have started (as an organization) before the chunin exam considering that itachi and kisame (both akatzuki at that time) arrived right after the chunin exam and orochimaru had joined (and defected) the akatsuki organization before the chunin exam. Does that mean pein conquered the rain village after founding or leading the akatzuki? --122.144.116.22 09:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, lets not speculate. Wait until the information has been released. σмgнgσмg 10:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

text: We have no reason to believe that Pein destroyed Hidden Rain. All we know is that he single-handedly ended the civil war. You Can't Review Me!!! 20:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rain genin examinees of part 1 and the fall of the rain village in part 2 

message: I have heard akatsuki to mean both Red Moon and Dawn. To which does it apply? On the current page it's listed as Dawn, but I'm not sure that's right. (then of course I could just be rather dull)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mollychan (talk • contribs) 21:25, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Both.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.19.19 (talk) 22:11, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Akatsuki is a single word that refers to the dawn.  This word was created by combining two other words (red and moon), but that doesn't make the meaning of the word "red moon" as it is used.  Think of it as "redmoon" in the same way "strawberry" doesn't mean a berry made of straw.  If you were to translate "red moon" to Japanese you get .  Note that "red" is pronounced differently when used as an adjective. –Gunslinger47 23:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is 暁 dawn. For those that still doubt check here: http://catalog.bandai.co.jp/item/4543112355683000.html 暁のマント (Akatsuki 'dawn' mantle)Konamaiki 04:12, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Akatsuki meaning 

message: i don't know if this theory have already been told around here. but lots of people thing that tobi is obito the sidekicks that give his eye to kakashi. the position of his unmasked sharingan eye reverse to kakashi's sharingan eye plus obito has the same hairstyle than obito.chapter 370 gived intel that the 4th was aware of something and put the kyubi in naruto on purpose.maybe "kakashi gaiden" as the only arc involving the 4th could give some intel on this.griiot(82.227.37.103 00:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Original research. We don't include theories or speculation. This has been talked about countless times. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 01:19, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  tobi/obito