Talk:Neaira (hetaera)

message: This is a featured article of the German Wikipedia, and deserves translation.
I've only partially translated the first two sections.  There are certainly many errors and inconsistencies.  Your input is appreciated. Deatonjr 06:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have questions about the toppic, you can ask me. Marcus Cyron 21:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Jreferee 18:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What's a "B article"? Marcus Cyron 21:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment for a breakdown of the quality assessment metrics. -Harmil 17:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Assessment#Class_parameter|Biography assessment rating]] comment 

message: Nikarete took Neaira as her daughter and provided for her "training" as a prostitute. Why is "training" in quotes? If there is a source that says she was "trained" but use of this word is considered dubious, the nature of the controversy should be explained in the article. From the description of the full role of Hetaera in that article's introduction:
::In ancient Greek society, hetaerae were independent and sometimes influential women who were required to wear distinctive dresses and had to pay taxes. Composed mostly of ex-slaves and foreigners, these courtesans were renowned for their achievements in dance and music, as well as for their physical talents. There is evidence that, unlike most other women in Greek society at the time, hetaerae were educated. It is remarkable that hetaerae not only were the only females who would actively take part in the symposiums, but also that their opinions and beliefs were respected by men.[citation needed]
it appears to me that the word "training" may be used without reservation or quotation marks.
:i have no objection to removing the quotes, but "training" was probably meant to signify the informality that such an apprenticeship involved.  Deatonjr 14:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Was the word in quotes in Debra Hamil's book, or were they inserted into the German Wiki? If the former, did the author explain her use of quotes? jiHymas@himivest.com 216.191.217.92 01:56, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:   I don't have access to the book, so there is no way no tell.  In any case, it doesn't seem too significant of an issue.  The meaning of the sentence is the same either way.  Deatonjr 03:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it's a minor issue, but disagree that the meaning of the sentence is the same either way. There's a sneer implicit in the use of quotes; if the sentence is simply a gratuitous sneer, it doesn't belong in the article. Actually, having thought about this a bit, I suggest that the sentence be changed to Nikarete took Neaira as her daughter and provided for her training as a hetaera. Or, since most people will not know what a hetaera was (I didn't!), perhaps Nikarete took Neaira as her daughter and provided for her training as a hetaera, the  ancient Greek equivalent of a courtesan. jiHymas@himivest.com 69.158.144.22 06:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

text:   korinthiazein is a Greek verb, and left in italics.  Again, "bettering"  was my literal translation of the German article.  The source was a book written (albeit translated into) German, so the wiki author probably wasn't quoting single words from the source.  
Ironically, the primary source for this article is the book written by Yale professor Debra Hamil translated into german.  "bettering" probably refers to nikarete's desire to establish her house as something other than a brothel.  She purchased the girls as slaves, but raised them as her own, and allowed them to "better" themselves, with the eventual possibility of purchasing their own freedom.  Deatonjr 14:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Perhaps that could be explained in the article, since this meaning isn't clear as the phrase now stands. jiHymas@himivest.com 216.191.217.92 01:56, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a link to a page promoting the book.  There is an interesting video narrated by (i think) the author.  http://www.dhamel.com/trying_neaira/
*I don't know if Hamil is a professor at Yale or not.  The publisher is Yale University Press.  Deatonjr 03:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

text:  Hamel claims to have received a Ph.D in Classical Languages and Literatures from Yale; to have been a Visiting Assistant Professor at Wesleyan University for a few terms; and to be, basically, a professional writer. Wesleyan confirms that she worked there for a while, anyway. jiHymas@himivest.com 69.158.144.22 06:11, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "training" ?

message: Is there any evidence that the scene depicted in the image involves an actual hetaera? If a musical instrument or other prop was depicted, that would be one thing, but there's nothing in image that suggests to me that the woman is of the highest rank of prostitute - but I am not even an informed layman on the subject. This image might make a better illustration for Prostitution in ancient Greece. jiHymas@himivest.com 216.191.217.92 01:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The jacket illustration of Hamel's book, might be best - at least Phryne was in fact a hetara! I was just a little puzzled that the image caption specifies the woman as a hetaera, without much justification that I can see - quite the opposite, in fact, since the juxtaposition of the moneybag and the sex seems somewhat vulgar. jiHymas@himivest.com 69.158.144.22 06:31, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: :GA review (see here for criteria)
#It is reasonably well written.
#:a (prose):  b (MoS): 
#:: 
#It is factually accurate and verifiable.
#:a (references):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 
#:: 
#It is broad in its coverage.
#:a (major aspects):  b (focused): 
#:: 
#It follows the neutral point of view policy.
#:Fair representation without bias: 
#:: 
#It is stable.
#:No edit wars etc.: 
#:: 
#It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
#:a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 
#:: 
#Overall: 
#:Pass/Fail: 
#:: </div>
Details:
* Lead section. It is very skimpy for an article of this size. Needs expansion to better summarize the article.
* Overall prose. There are a number of paragraphs that are very short and give the prose a choppy feel. Consider consolidating them.
* Biography section, early years subsection. First paragraph and last paragraph need source citations.
* A number of statements of opinion are unsourced. Specific instances (and these are not all of them) "It is also possible that Neaira wasn't in love..." and the trials and conclusion subsections. Another is the last sentence of the first paragraph of the Events surrounding Phano section. There are a number of other places in the article also.
* You mention Apollodoros, but do not ever explain exactly who he is and why his opinion is relevant.
* You need to source things to more modern sources than Pseudo-Demosthenes. I see that the first footnote says that it's based on a book by Hamel, but you need to say exactly where the opinions are coming from. 
* Generally, the article feels very disjointed. Some things are explained in detail, but others are left unexplained. One example is the Between brothel and freedom section, Neaira is in Athens, but the next section implies that she's in Megara.The prose also could use a good copyedit.The disjointed feel of the prose gives the impression that the article is unfocused. 
I'm failing this article due to sourcing and prose issues. Please note that the above suggestions are not exhaustive by any means. The article is disjointed and the prose needs some serious work. Also, large numbers of opinions are sourced to either an ancient source or are unsourced. The lede also needs expansion.
If you disagree with my assessment, feel free to bring the article to Wikipedia:Good article reassessment.  It's a good start on the article, just needs a lot of work on prose and sourcing before it is ready for GA. Ealdgyth | Talk 16:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Problem: the article seems not to be translated completely from the german Wikipedia. So there are missing parts. But the citation-fetish here on en:WP is too extreme. Marcus Cyron (talk) 11:35, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: GA review

message: The section Conclusion seems unnecessary, especially the final paragraph, which is not a thorough review of the literature but merely mentions a few sources which are available in German (because this is part of the article which came translated directly from the German?)
Discussion of the authorship of the speech is relevant (though could be in the lead section instead?), but there is no evidence given that the academic consensus is that the speech should be considered Pseudo-Demosthenic, rather than authentic, and certainly not all authors on the topic refer to the speech as Pseudo-Demosthenic. Does this claim come from Hamel's book like so much of the rest of the article? Trevett (1992) appears to be a good source for this claim, but I don't have a copy of it on hand, though I can find at least five favourable reviews on JSTOR (though Carey notes that not all of Trevett's methodology is universally accepted: his use of analysis of sentence length has been criticised by e.g. Dover).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.233.97 (talk) 15:46, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conclusion 

message: Making extensive changes in a single edit, so I'm detailing them here:
* Added various 'citation needed' tags; I plan to go away and hunt down citations for some of these.
* Split references to Dem. and Athanaesius in third paragraph out into two, and moved the Dem. reference to the claim it supports.
* Removed unreferenced 'probably very prominent' claim.  If someone can come up with an ancient historian who has argued that, feel free to put it back in with a citation.
* Unlinked Philetairos, as it links to Philetaerus, who doesn't seem to be the same person at all.
* Cited claim that Lysias was a regular customer of Metaneira
* Deleted unsourced description of Simos of Thessaly
Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 18:35, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes to 'Early Years'

message: Rebbeca Futo Kennedy, Immigrant Women in Athens: Gender, Ethnicity, and Citizenship in the Classical City, Routledge, 2014. There's a section about Neaira and the way she was treated, from p. 103: "Violence against metic women: The case of Neaira." SarahSV (talk) 02:20, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source suggestion