Talk:HIV/AIDS in Africa

message: This page should be eliminated or completely rewritten.
It states as facts assumptions which never have been confirmed. Even the chart which is presented is complete nonsense.
If one researches the subject of AIDS in Africa, one will immediately stumble across the following:
-- all numbers are based on estimates  without any basis. ( there is no scientific study: all what can be found is: an employee of a UN organisation took some  local estimates he read, put it in an excel spreadsheet on his microcomputer and calculated an assumed number for all Africa.
--  there is a definition of AIDS specifically for Africa; its based on symptoms of well known diseases.
-- the total mortality in Africa has not increased ( but rather went down slightly), despite the " extreme high" assumed infection by HIV. The reason is simple: what counted as death by TB or malaria or cholera is now considered AIDS.
--
:What bollocks. As somebody who has lost a close friend due to AIDS, I find this attempted denial of the existence of the disease insulting. We have enough of a problem dealing with AIDS now and in the future, we don't need idiots hampering our efforts by spreading stuff like this. Impi 20:57, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The fact of increasing death rates in countries with high estimates of HIV prevalence is not in distpute. The loss of life and good health is evident to all who live int these countries. Of course the rates are estimates, but to claim that there are no "scientific studies" is to denigrate the dedicated work of hundreds of researchers who are using advanced statistical methods to extrapolate from limited data that is available in the harsh conditions of these societies.
: Actually, what's rubbish is that the article itself doesn't even talk about "false positives" and the historical problem of HIV-prevalence in Africa being overestimated. This overstatement of the HIV problem happened possibly for complex and sometimes very stupid political reasons, or maybe just because medical workers doing the best they could with very poor local infrastructure thought it wise to err on the side of overstatement. Getting into the complex-and-sometimes-stupid political reasons for overestimating the spread of HIV in Africa may lie beyond the scope of this particular article -- but surely the apparent fact that past estimates were overblown ought to be mentioned? Throbert McGee (talk) 02:48, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The first post here is rubbish 

message: The graph showing average life expectancy in Africa is misleading because it does not have a base of zero.  By zooming in on the curved part of the graph, it gives a visual impression of the lines swinging wildly. The shape of the lines is far more dramatic than it would be if the graph started at zero. 
AIDS in Africa has had a positively horrifying effect, but this graph distorts the information. 
This is from a textbook, "Visual Communication" by Paul Lester: "A serious problem with charts can be the misleading visual representation of data.  Although omitting part of a scale to save space is acceptable (as indicated by the zigzag line at the bottom of many charts), constructing a chart from a y-axis point other than zero can dramatically change the visual message and is not acceptable. As printed in a newspaper and reproduced using the Excel program (center), the [changes in the price of oil from '98 to '99] appears dramatic with the zero point set at ten. But with the zero point set at zero, the infographic is more accurate and less visually alarming."
It's also explained pretty well here with figures 2 and 6.
:There cannot be a zero point on the y-axis line in this case, because life expectancy has never been zero for as long as mankind has been around. Note please that there is no comparative frequency or amount analysis being done, unlike in the example at rice.edu, instead we're graphing a value that cannot be zero and tracking it over time. The figure is one that comes straight out of alternate statistics, we're not creating it for the purposes of the graph (for instance, the example from rice.edu obtains values by taking the values it gets from alternate sources and then comparing them to get "relative values").
:Were you to argue that such a graph might be more accurate if it went further back in time, by perhaps another 50 years, then you would be right, but so far as I know we don't have proper statistics for this part of the world prior to 1958, so such a point would be moot.
:I'm removing the note you added to the graph because of the above, and because it's non-sensical. It's simply not possible to have a zero point on the y-axis in this sort of graph. Impi 19:22, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: While a zero-axis doesn't make physical sense, as Impi explained, it *does* provide for a visual anchor.  I have to agree with the quote that not having a point of reference (zero) can make graphs appear misleading;  however, since this one varies between roughly 35 and 60, adding a zero wouldn't have been as useful as if it had varied between, say, 60 and 65. Dewet 03:48, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  
The graph used here is misleading
 

message: The article mentions a lot of, and I think very valid, reasons for the high rates of HIV/AIDS in sub-saharan Africa. Generally all kinds of diseases will be more common and more deadly in poorer countries, in countries with rather basic healthcare systems, poor nutrition etc. Still I'm intrigued by the extremely high prevalence in Southern Africa. The econonomic / health care situation there isn't worse than in many other sub-saharan countries - quite the contarary: in the cases of South Africa and Botswana it is definitely much better. Still those are the places with the highest HIV/AIDS rates. Why? - Of course it is perfectly possible that we just don't know (which, if this is true, should be mentioned). Otherwise I'd be interested in some, at least, tenetative explanations for this phenomenon - in case there are any?
Recent findings which seem (?) to proove that HIV originated in or around Cameroon (cp. ) would make the whole thing only more startling.
Just came across the following - no idea, whether there's anything to it - but at least it is an effort to explain the phenomenon. Should it be mentioned here? Any opionions?
--84.188.216.109 00:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If the virus is less deadly in South Africa, people are probably less afraid of it. That could be one reason. A friend of mine compared me to Hitler for suggesting this, but isn't it also natural to assume that if more people live with the virus, more people will get infected? I'm sure the ARVs reduce the chances of further transmission, but not by as much as if people being kept alive by them had been dead. I could be wrong, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone for bringing this up. 75.80.168.77 (talk) 22:51, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prevalence in Southern Africa 

message: There has been a recent edit by an anonymous IP that completely reversed the statement about the causes of transmission of HIV. I just placed a NPOV-section tag because I felt this is a point that has to be cleared up by people more competent than myself.--Robin.rueth 13:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Causes of transmission (NPOV-section)

message: Misleading Either this article should be renamed HIV/AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa, or it should include information about North Africa. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 23:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: I had to revert the new paragraph it was full of spelling mistakes, two broken links and inappropriate statements ("is another great site") etc, but please do try again, perhaps on the talk page with something along the lines of the content and we can work on it here --BozMo talk 20:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sorry 

message: I have reverted the paragraph on the human and emotional aspects. I DO think that we need something more like that in the article and will try to rewrite it when I've got time but the paragraph submitted violated so many WP guidelines that we cannot leave it in place as is. --BozMo talk 19:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sorry 

message: There seems to be a fair bit of information spread around on the different pages for african countries. What do people think about me consolidating them all in this article?
JimmyDodger 10:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, if its accurate. The article itself isn't terribly accurate at present and needs more citing for data it includes. --BozMo talk 10:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Country by country articles 

message: The section on prevalence in West Africa lists the countries with the lowest and highest prevalence.  Why is Burkina Faso on both lists?  I don't know the answer myself to correct it. Mapjc 14:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction 

message: UNAIDS has come out with 2007 numbers, which are much lower than the previous ones. The new estimate for sub-saharan africa is 20.9 million and 24.3 million people infected.  The AIDS pandemic page has the updated numbers in the table at the top, however the body of the article still contains older numbers in places. Gigs (talk) 08:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please update this article with the 2007 UNAIDS numbers 

message: someone has ruined this page.
please fix.
thanks.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.103.20.232 (talk) 04:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Destroyed article 

message: The three articles excerpted below are essential for
understanding AIDS in Africa, and Mbeki's dissent from the
Western corporate line that everyone has been force-fed. These
articles are long, detailed, well-documented, and very
illuminating about many things, not least the racism combined
with Puritanical, anti-sex attitudes inherent in most
conceptions of AIDS epidemiology in Africa. Great fun, and
rewarding reads, IMO. A well-informed reader will note that
the principal causes of the "AIDS epidemic" in Africa are the
same as the causes of the low-I.Q. "epidemic". They are:
malaria, impure water, parasitic infections, malnutrition
(micronutrients and macronutrients), tuberculosis, etcetera,
which are in turn caused largely by grinding poverty. The
articles cited below are essential for understanding
contemporary AFRICA, period -- not just AIDS or I.Q. These
articles explain the proximate causes of Africa's
backwardness.
The three articles are below, tagged:
DOCUMENT #1: Misconceptions About AIDS in Africa (Geshekter)
DOCUMENT #2: Mbeki's AIDS Orthodoxy Critique (Geshekter et al)
DOCUMENT #3: Nutrition, Parasites, and HIV/AIDS (Stillwaggon)
-- cut--
I highly recommend the full texts, at the URLs, not just these
excerpts. But if you don't have time for that, and would
prefer an "easy-listening" version, try the following video of
Dr. Charles Geshekter on AIDS in Africa:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qUBagW-xWs -- Part 1
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZkrCm9wMKI -- Part 2
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l5IDC9bJyE -- Part 3
Enjoy.
Alan
http://www2.units.it/~etica/2007_2/GESHEKTER.pdf
DOCUMENT #2: Mbeki's AIDS Orthodoxy Critique (Geshekter et al)
http://www.altheal.org/africa/aidspapergeshekter.doc
DOCUMENT #3: Nutrition, Parasites, and HIV/AIDS (Stillwaggon)
http://www.ifpri.org/events/conferences/2005/durban/papers/stillwaggonWP.pdf
--- Alan2012 (talk) 04:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  AIDS in Africa: Key Articles 

message: The graph of national infection rate for HIV has Madagascar at <2%, and yet the regional analysis for southern Africa says that the only country with less than 10% is Angola. One of these must be wrong...or am I missing something? Khrister (talk) 23:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Madagascar inconsistency?

message: I have attempted to revise the section on Medical suspicion in order to get it back on topic. While I'll be the first to admit that there is a sad history of medical exploitation in Africa I don't think this is the place for a detailed discussion of it (perhaps History of Medical Exploitation in Africa would be better?). This section should really be on how such a history and the current beliefs associated with it impacts on the HIV/AIDS epidemic in Africa. I have tried to find reliable sources regarding medical mistrust in Africa, as I really wasn't comfortable with all the links to an AIDS-denialist organisation, but the links I have often relate to the impact this mistrust has had on vaccination. I will attempt to expand this section later with additional links.Interrapax (talk) 04:02, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Medical Suspicion

message: ^ a b Washington, Harriet. Medical Apartheid: The Dark History of Medical Experimentation on Black Americans from Colonial Times to the Present , Anchor books, New York pp 300-330
According to the author of this nytimes article, the book cited, "Medical Apartheid", is a piece of crap and should be ignored.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/18/books/review/Emanuel.t.html?pagewanted=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1311090535-1%20NcQy%202sqftsUv8RmKRmA  — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheThomas (talk • contribs) 15:55, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation 11 

message: I've merged the tables per here. The focus should be on the actual HIV/AIDS prevalence rates. The double HIV/AIDS and HIV/TB tables and huge standalone HIV/TB table distract attention away from that. Also note that the HIV/TB rates for all of the countries except Mayotte, Reunion and South Sudan are on the GTBR's pages 16-18 (152-154) and 63-64 (199-200) . Soupforone (talk) 22:04, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you don't (yet) understand how interconnected tuberculosis and HIV are in Africa. Maybe you should do some research about that. AfricaTanz (talk) 23:33, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Understood, but the actual HIV/AIDS prevalence rates should go first. Soupforone (talk) 21:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Table width

message: With respect to why the JUNP's continental HIV/AIDS rates appear twice; WP:LEAD - "Apart from trivial basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." Soupforone (talk) 22:28, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that if A then B is true (everything in the lead must be in the body of the article ) does not imply that if B then A is also true (everything in the body of the article must be in the lead). So, we have the discretion to exclude from the lead whatever we want that's in the body. AfricaTanz (talk) 22:37, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

text: Prove that's what UNAIDS meant. The Catholic website is a secondary source and can be ignored.AfricaTanz (talk) 22:27, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a quote/link from UNAIDS, not the Catholic website. Soupforone (talk) 22:31, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The burden is on you to prove that's what UNAIDS meant. Surely the proof is easily available for you to present.... AfricaTanz (talk) 22:40, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: First the UN phrase is from the Catholic website, when it in fact isn't... now the UN doesn't mean what it plainly states. Sheesh. Soupforone (talk) 22:56, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It is clear what UNAIDS meant, as the article (and its sources) now make abundantly clear. AfricaTanz (talk) 00:39, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: UNAIDS' figures aren't just for Sub-Saharan Africa, as indicated in the wikitext. They are for Africa as a whole. This is noted on page 15 of the report . Soupforone (talk) 23:07, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

text: The article now quotes the source. Problem solved. AfricaTanz (talk) 00:41, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Not quite, as the quote was incomplete. Problem now solved. Soupforone (talk) 23:07, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

text: The article now quotes the source. Problem solved. AfricaTanz (talk) 00:41, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The quote is from UNAIDS' press release, which says "now ensure" . I see, though, what you're referring. You seem to be talking about page 31 of the report itself . Soupforone (talk) 23:07, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

text: If it were a proper noun, you would be right. But it isn't. AfricaTanz (talk) 22:19, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It is, actually . Soupforone (talk) 22:31, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, that doesn't prove anything. AfricaTanz (talk) 22:38, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It proves that Abstinence, be faithful, use a condom (ABC) is an acronymed proper name, referring to a specific HIV campaign recommendation. Your Tanzanian Commission For Aids indicates this as well. Soupforone (talk) 22:56, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The Tanzanian Commission for AIDS is not "mine". Sheesh. AfricaTanz (talk) 00:42, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: JUNP

message: UNAIDS' figures on the number of AIDS-related deaths in 2005-2011 and the number of new HIV infections from 2001 to 2011 aren't just for Sub-Saharan Africa, as indicated in the wikitext. They are for Africa as a whole. This is noted on page 15 of the report . The separate UNAIDS/TB paper has the figures for Sub-Saharan Africa alone on pages 12 and 8 . Since this is the HIV/AIDS in Africa article, the continental figures should be prioritized, though the Sub-Saharan/sub-continental figures can also be mentioned. Soupforone (talk) 21:55, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: UNAIDS continental figures

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on HIV/AIDS in Africa. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: 1) Relevance: there seems to be a little irrelevance for the definition of "sex education." "Definition" can be changed to comprehensive sex education. Plus the citations used are at least 10 years old in some areas.
2) There seems to be a high representation of a view point in this article with worlds that suggest an opinion. Under evidence there are big block quotes without citations. It also uses language that pushes an opinion, even if it is the language of the author/article the editor is citing.
3) I think there could be a section for abstinence only education, such as where it is represented and by whom.
4) There are plenty citations missing. It is missing citations regarding the increase in teen pregnancies of the 1960s and later under the heading "sources" the author writes how parents should be involved (needs a citation). This is just one of many places missing a citation as a lot of this article is direct quotes.
5) structure: it is odd to have who supports what type of education in the lead of this wikipedia article. Public opinion and some countries under "by area" seem un-necessary due to the lack of citation and information. For example Thailand has no citations at all, so why do we have it? (Rbuell (talk) 15:36, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: More Suggestions

message: 1) The article "Economic empowerment and Aids-related stigma in rural Kenya: a double-edged sword?" argues that the stigma of HIV/AIDS in Kenya's communities coupled with economic empowerment can both increase a women's HIV risk due to under reporting, but enhance social standing in their community. The framework I intend to use is to add information on how the stigma of HIV acts as a barrier for women to report that they have it, as their is a high risk of resulting in domestic abuse and divorce from the husband. Women are likely to be labeled as unfaithful regardless of contracting HIV from their husbands.[1]
2) The article "Family Kinship Patterns and Female Sex Work in the Informal Urban Settlement of Kibera, Nairobi, Kenya" argues that the likelihood of continued female sex workers (FSW) in Kenya is historically determined on kinship and male social economic support. From this I will barrow how economic instability in adolescents exacerbates the FSW population. I will also state how FSWs contribute to HIV/AIDS in Kenya. [2]
3) The article "Effects of Micro-Enterprise Services on HIV Risk Behavior Among Female Sex Workers in Kenya's Urban Slums" argues how microfinance and other micro-enterprise activities can decrease FSW's vulnerability to HIV/AIDS. I will use frameworks that show how providing empowerment to FSW allows for more condom use, safer sex practices, negotiating power, and in some cases ceasing sex work.[3]
please let me know if you think these would would be good changes to the article
Rbuell (talk) 05:15, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Kenya Specific Changes

message: This article has a lot of good information, but also has a lot of poor wording and more importantly, a lot of unsourced statements. We need to ensure that everything mentioned in the article is verifiable. Please comment here if you have an opinion about my changes. My hope is to make this article an excellent resource on this topic. Ashmoo (talk) 10:08, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup of article