Talk:Slovene language/Archive 1

message: I think Slovene has no official status in Friuli-Venezia Giulia. Slovene was only officially recognized by Italy as one of the minoritary languages with la legge n. 482 del 15 dicembre 1999 and given privileges with  la legge 38/2001 di tutela della minoranza slovena. Boraczek 10:12, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: status

message: In my opinion dž is a phoneme in Slovene. It's distinct from č (a minimal pair džem : čem). And it has different pronunciation than d-ž (like in podžupan) even though I don't know if there are any minimal pairs. It's very rare in Slovene and probably it only occurs in loanwords, but there's no reason to exclude it from the list of Slovenian phonemes. Boraczek 11:20, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: phoneme

message: The term "accentual norms" is used in the first paragraph.  I don't know what this means, and this seems to be the only article in the whole of wikipedia that uses the term.  Is there perhaps another term we could use, or could someone please create a new entry for it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.111.98.14 (talk) 01:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  accentual norms 

message: What purpose do they serve? None of the other language articles have them, and as far I can tell they're basically just a almost-completely-useless set of Slovenian words that have been added to the article. I'm not sure that there is any value at all in knowing how to say "geographic distribution" in Slovenian to someone who is just getting an overview of the language. I'd say delete them, as they add basically useless clutter to the article. Nohat 22:22, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: We have it on Belarusian language, but only in grammar-specific part, e.g. noun (nazounik) and pronoun (zajmiennik). --rydel 03:07, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: OK, well after over a month without objection, I removed them. Nohat 03:59, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slovenian translations of section headings 

message: New template has been created (copied from Commons): . It appears like this: . It works also by using:
*template:Slovene </br>
*template:Slovenian </br>
*template:Slovene flag. </br>
 
Cheers! --Eleassar777 17:03, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: New template

message: I removed the following addition to the "Sounds"-section.
:Basic comparison of English and Slovenian consonants
:Only three characters in Slovenian alphabet can not be found in English alphabet as well. They are all consonants with the following pronounciations.
:* Č (č) - pronounced like ch in China, 
:* Š (š) - pronounced like sh in hush, 
:* Ž (ž) - pronounced like s in leisure.
:Some characters that can be pronounced in different ways in English, however in Slovenian have standard pronounciations.
:* C (c) - pronounced like ts in cats,
:* E (e) - pronounced like e in bed,
:* G (g) - pronounced like g in god,
:* H (h) - pronounced like h in honey,
:* I (i) - pronounced like ee in bee,
:* J (j) - pronounced like y in yard (notice that sound j from jazz has to be written with the sequence of two characters dž in Slovenian, therefore džez),
A table of IPA with (mostly) phonemes is as basic as you can get. IPA is quite unambiguous for encyclopedic purposes and in those cases where it isn't, it should be supplemented with sound files, not written language and comparisons with English which can never be particularly satisfactory. The section above is based on the assumption that written language is the norm on which pronunciation is based on. A description of the phonology of a language can certainly use orthography of the language in examples, but it should not be an attempt at a letter-to-sound list. That should be covered under "Writing system" (and it already is).
Peter Isotalo 11:45, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Basic phonology 

message: Could a Slovenian speaker tell me what the reflexes of the Proto-Slavonic "tj" and "dj" are in Slovenian? For example the Proto-Slavonic "tj" in /svetja/ (candle) gives  in Old Ch. Sl. and Bulgarian ( and ),  in Russian (),  in Serbian ( in Serbo-Croatian, etc. Pls, answer here or on my talk page, thank you very much! VMORO 23:30, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is  <sveča>. Semprio 11:22, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Question

message: Added a link to "Slovenian Language and Culture Lessons in Switzerland and Austria".  These are organised by the Slovenian education ministry and officially recognised by the Swiss authorities.  I believe there are similar programmes running in other parts of the world.  I thought the link might be useful to potential learners of the language (as I am) and that it fitted best in this section.  Forgive me if I was mistaken.  ralphb.
:Found & added links for Slovenian language resources in Australia and USA also.  Likely similar resources in Hungary and Italy are probably beyond my googling abilities.  ralphb. 13:46, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slovenian as a second language 

message: Hi, I'm writing an article about mercury (the element), which had first been translated in French as hydrargyre then later as vif-argent (quicksilver). These two word means exactly the same thing, but one with Latin etymology and the second with French one.
I see the same kind of distinction than between sposojenka and tujka, but I can't find a Wikipedia entry for foreign word. Do you know of such a dual process of assimiliation in English? Especially, are there different names for different degree of adoption? Reply to David Latapie 10:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Try this for size: loanword. Btw, I think this would also be the more apropriate term to use in the article. Being a Slovene native speaker, I can see why somebody would want to use the term "foreign word", but I don't think it works that way in English.--213.172.246.40 23:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See also  calque. 惑乱 分からん 01:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Sposojenka'' and ''tujka''

message: Why do we need so many examples of geographic names? We should remember that Wikipedia is not a dictionary. IMO, we should use them only to illustrate some general principles. --Eleassar my talk 13:59, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I moved names from a Slovenian alphabet, even less appropriate place for them. But I agree. --AndrejJ 18:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Geographic names

message: I must remind you that Slovenian is not a south slavic language but a western one. It belongs to the same group as Clovak and Czech. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.81.246.92 (talk) 
: I must remind you that this is not true. It's South Slavic all right. --romanm (talk) 12:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please prove your statements by linguistic [jezikoslovni] sources und sign it so we'll know who you are. I think there is much evidence that Croatian (and Serbian) are much closer to Slovene than Czech or Slovak (concerning grammer, words, and so on). Please note that there are even intermediate dialects between Slovene and Croatian (in Western Croatia) called Kajkavian_dialect (:hr:Kajkavski). -- PhJ 10:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nearly all reputable scholarship on the Slavonic languages classifies Slovenian as a South Slavonic language. The only significant disagreement is whether it was always a South Slavonic language, or was first a West Slavonic language pulled into the southern dialect continuum after the arrival of the Magyars in Pannonia. Wikipedia does not rely on the personal investigations of its editors; all content much be sourced from published scholarship. Your entire discussion above violates WP:NOR and uses the Talk page as a general discussion forum. I'd ask you to remove it. CRCulver 17:21, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slovenian is not a south slavic language - of course it is 

message: I think we should remove common phrases. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. --Eleassar my talk 18:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As there has been no opposition I've removed common phrases now. --Eleassar my talk 09:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Common phrases

message: On one occasion Count A. Auersperg (Anastasius Grün) entered the diet of Carniola carrying the whole corpus of Slovenian literature under his arm to provide evidence that the Slovenian language could in his view not be substituted for German as a medium of higher education
:... I'm assuming there is a point in stating this? TomorrowTime 09:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slovenian literature 

message: The vowels section says that vowel length is non-contrastive and dependent on stress placement, whereas the Prosody section claims the exact opposite. I understand there may be some controversy on that point, but anyway citations would come in handy. Edricson 13:44, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction 

message: I have added sounds  (lj) and  (nj) to consonant list. Question is about  (ng)/(nk) sound (as in English bank, Latvian banka), as I'm Latvian I don't know is it represented in Slovenian. Slovenian phonetics is much like Latvian. I think that Slovenians could take from Latvian ļ and ņ characters to represent digraphs lj and nj, which fit more to Internet style not for handwriting. For example, Ļubļana (Ljubljana). Roberts7 11:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree that this consonants appear, though the pronunciation of lj seems to be slightly different than lj in Croatian. Nj exists in words like Kranj, konj... someone would need to check a source for the correct IPA sounds, I am not really sure at the moment. But for the alphabet, we are perfectly fine with the present one and additional letters would just make a mess :-) --Tone 15:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I think all of the sounds (namely the , the  and the ) ought to be deleted. The  and  are positional allophones of l and n, respectivelly. The  is merely a voiced variation of . I can't think of any examples of minimal pairs of these and I have never seen them described as separate phonemes in any source. When I saw them listed as phonemes I was shocked. The description on the top clearly says that there are 21 consonantal sounds in Slovene, but in the chart there are 24. How can one distinguish what are phonemes and what are allophones? Next to that, if allophones are to be added to the article (clearly noted as such, though!), the list is far from complete. You have posed a question about the . It is always written like an n, but only appears before velar consonants (k, g and h). It is not considered to be a separate phoneme. But if one wants allophones in the charts, one has to add them. The same goes for , appearing only before labio-dental consonants (simfonija). Somewhere on this page I also noted the dispute about  being a separate phoneme. We were taught in school that it indeed is one. My school education is also the main support for all of my arguments - the consonantal phonemes are, they said, p t k   f s  h b d g z   m n r l v j. As soon as I register I will delete these additions to the inventary. And about your proposals to change our alphabet - I don't like it. As I have stated, the sounds in question are not phonemes but rather consonant clusters. Next to that, it would be hard to make people write that way. And even more, if we ought to have new symbols for non-phonemes, why don't you Latvians use a special symbol for the ŋ in "banka"? :) Perhaps I seemed a bit harsh in this reply, so I would like to add it was not meant like that. Have a pleasant day! Aljoša Avani 01:16, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: According to Slovenski pravopis (last edition), // and // are present in Slovenian language. However, the book also states that  is never used. So I am putting the first two back. Thank you for pointing out the error. --Tone 08:32, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: This is not true! Slovenski pravopis (SP) says that the nasal is only palatalized () rather than palatal (). However, the former is only a variant (of // in certain positions) and is mainly absent from contemporary standard Slovenian (it is a very marked dialectal feature). As regards , it is only a positional variant of , the same way as  is to . More accurately, as regards  and , the jury is still out, since they appear contrastively only in loanwords. Also, SP is not really a good source for phonology, try something more specialized. -Alpha1979 07:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consonants 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
* Support. --Eleassar my talk 16:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey