Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles/Ryukyu debate

message: The statement "Island names should always include macrons" has the same difficulty as the statement I noted in the topic "A (hopefully noncontroversial) proposal not connected with the "what the hell" debate" below. Namely, "always" requires more macrons than we've agreed to in body text. As an example, the statement requires that we refer to the island of Niijima as Nījima. There are probably examples with an "o" in one kanji followed by a "u" in a different kanji that we likewise don't write with macrons (although none comes to mind). Again, I don't believe we intended to require that, so I propose changing the sentence to "Island names should always include the macrons that are required for other text." Fg2 21:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely. You're obviously fully cognizant of what makes sense - it's just a matter of phrasing it clearly enough in the guidelines. I think we agree that macrons should only be used for おお、おう、and うう, never for いい、ええ、アー and the like. As for instances where "ou" come in separate kanji and are thus not macronned, well, it's not an island, but Shimousa Province seems to fit the bill nicely. LordAmeth 21:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A (hopefully noncontroversial) proposal not connected with the "Ryūkyū/Ryukyu and Ogasawara/Bonin" debates

message: In Ogasawara Islands, similar to Ryukyu vs. Ryūkyū, we have a rule conflict.  The article is at Ogasawara Islands, based on the Japanese name.  But according to the English words of Japanese origin rule of WP:MOS-JP, it should rather be at Bonin Islands, because the dictionaries prefer Bonin Islands.  If the article is voted to stay at Ogasawara Islands, we need to list it as an exception somewhere in WP:MOS-JP.
There will be 2 choices as follows:
# Ogasawara Islands (based on Japanese name) / list as exception in WP:MOS-JP
# Bonin Islands (based on English/dictionary name)
Highest percentage wins.  The poll shall be for a period of 2 weeks, coinciding with the Ryukyu vs. Ryūkyū poll below.--Endroit 16:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest you take this up at Talk:Ogasawara Islands first and see if there is any desire to change it. Bendono 21:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This issue deals with policy concerns in WP:MOS-JP, and it was brought up by Dekimasu and others in this discussion and in Talk:Ryūkyū Islands.  So I believe this is the correct place to do the poll.  Besides, we did similar polls here, for Tokyo, Osaka, etc. for the cities and prefectures.--Endroit 23:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bonin vs. Ogasawara : Planning for a poll 

message: The Internet is great. However, very few books are digitally available. So I went to the library. Below is an excerpt of some of the English books that I found using the spelling "Ryūkyū" in the titles. To be fair, I specifically filtered out books regarding linguistics.
* Ryūkyū in world history, Josef Kreiner
* Sources of Ryūkyūan history and culture in European collections, Josef Kreiner
* Temporal and spatial variation in the culture history of the Ryūkyū Islands, Richard J Pearson
* Ryūkyū studies to 1854 : western encounter, Patrick Beillevaire
* Handbook and specialized catalogue of the postal issues of the Ryūkyū (Liu Chʻiu) Islands (issued under United States administrations), William C Lassister
* Specialized catalogue of the postal issues of the Ryūkyū (Liu Chʻiu) islands (issued under United States administrations), by Arthur Lee-Francis Askins
* Ryūkyū Islands (under United States administrations) : standard list of post offices, Melvin H Schoberlin
* Okinawa or Ryūkyū: the Floating Dragon, Earl Rankin Bull
* Catalog of the Ryūkyū research collection. A special collection of books, articles and manuscripts in relevant languages dealing with the Ryūkyū Islands, as of May 1, 1964, Douglas Gilbert Haring
* China's quasi-war with Japan : the dispute over the Ryūkyū (Liu-ch'iu) Islands, 1871-1881, Pak-Wah Leung
* Japan country map. area maps, Japan 1:2,000,000, Kansai district 1:200,000, Kantō area 1:750,000, Ryūkyū Islands 1:4,000,000 : city plans, central Tokyo 1:17,500, central Osaka 1:15,000, central Kyoto 1:15,000, Periplus Editions.
* A list of books and articles on Ryūkyū, Douglas G. Haring
* Ryūkyū survey 1960, Naoichi Kokubu
* Geological map around Ryūkyū arc, Eiichi Honza
* Scientific investigations in the Ryūkyū Islands (SIRI) report, by National Research Council (U.S.). Pacific Science Board
* Ryūkyū lacquer, Harry Mason Garner
A few things to note:
* Some of these were issued by the US administration and other official bodies.
* Notice the expression "Ryūkyū Islands"
* Notice the expression "Ryūkyūan"
I noticed one interesting thing while I was there. The US occupation was known as "United States Civil Administration of the Ryukyu Islands", or USCAR for short. This is called 琉球列島米国民政府 in Japanese. Notice the expression 琉球列島. Perhaps the previous conversation about Ryukyu Islands vs. 琉球諸島 vs. 南西諸島 was meaningless. Bendono 07:02, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What percentage of the books had these macrons? ...I believe that the administration of the Ryukyus was separate from the administration of Okinawa, which makes the distinction in Japanese understandable. After Okinawa was returned to Japanese control, the US still had control over the "Ryūkyūs". I note this which indicates that the Ryūkyūs are now considered a part of the Nanseis. Dekimasu 00:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ryūkyū in real books