Talk:Fan Noli

message: :Image:Fannoli.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot 02:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Fannoli.jpg

message: :Image:Fannoli.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 06:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Fannoli.jpg

message: Apart from this guy and Makarios III, does anyone know of anyone else who combined these things as Orthodox Christians. Are they unique? Eugene-elgato (talk) 09:03, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Also apart from the Greek archbishop who took over shortly at the time Churchill was PM Eugene-elgato (talk) 11:05, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Public office and holy orders 

message: Two users (User:Gaius Claudius Nero and User:Aigest) deleted (diff 1 and diff 2) referenced information about Noli's work on Skanderbeg. The explanations they provided were: "completely unnecessary" (Gaius Claudius Nero) and "irrelevant to the subject" (Aigest).
I believe that it is obvious that dissertation of Fan S. Noli is very relevant for Fan S. Noli and necessary to be presented in the article: 
* simply because it was his dissertation 
* because Noli's dissertation about Skanderbeg written in 1947 is very important work of Noli which is researched by many scholars including experts like Kenneth Setton, Franz Babinger (who also explained Biemmi's forgery, but still wrote: The standard modern biography in English of the Albanian national hero is Fan S. Noli ....
* because some users (like Gaius Claudius Nero himself) underlined their opinion about Noli's work:"Fan Noli is the main work on Skanderbeg"
* because Gaius Claudius Nero himself emphasized in the same comment opinion of Franz Babinger:" The standard modern biography in English of the Albanian national hero is Fan S. Noli"
* because Noli's work on Skanderbeg is frequently researched in works of many scholars
* it is frequently used by many users (including Gaius Claudius Nero) as source on wikipedia, especially in case of articles written about Skanderbeg (dozens of times in Skanderbeg article)
I think that based on the above presented arguments it is obvious that information about dissertation of Fan S. Noli is not "irrelevant to the subject" nor "completely unnecessary".
If you Gaius Claudius Nero and Aigest still believe that dissertation of Fan S. Noli is:
* "irrelevant to the subject" and 
* "completely unnecessary"
please provide some arguments.
If you don't provide arguments for your claims that dissertation of Fan S. Noli is "irrelevant to the subject" and "completely unnecessary" within reasonable period of time, I will conclude that we reached consensus that Noli's dissertation on Skanderbeg is not irrelevant to the Noli nor completely unnecessary and based on such consensus I will return referenced information you removed from the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:11, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You can find critics on every work of every author. This article is about his life. You can use those critics in relevant talking pages eg Skanderbeg talk page. Aigest (talk) 14:11, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It is completely the opposite. According to WP:NPOV we should present "all significant views that have been published by reliable sources". There are plenty of biography articles which include criticism even the whole sections dedicated to it. Wikipedia:Criticism says "Negative criticism of a topic is acceptable material, and should be included in this encyclopedia". Informing the readers about the Noli's dissertation on Skanderbeg is not criticism.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:16, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That argument belongs to Skanderbeg biography not to Noli biography, if you can't see the difference by yourself I can not tell you more Aigest (talk) 09:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It was Noli's dissertation and Noli's main work, not Skanderbeg's. Why would we hide information about Noli's main work, dissertation on Skanderbeg which was described by expert like Babinger as: "The standard modern biography in English of the Albanian national hero"?  --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:01, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's funny how you watch me even when I am barely active. Nevertheless, I would have to agree with Aigest that this is irrelevant to the topic. Fan Noli played many roles, but his most conspicuous ones were as a politician and a clergyman. Including a discussion about criticisms of his dissertation is hardly encyclopedic.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 17:17, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

text: I find it interesting how you continually condemn yourself. The link for one who accuses others of malice defines itself as such: You often find yourself accusing or suspecting other editors of "suppressing information", "censorship" or "denying facts". You always accuse me of hiding information just like you did above (Why would we hide information about Noli's main work). Furthermore, just because a statement is cited doesn't mean it's relevant. In the same link that you gave me, I found support for my reversion of your edit ().--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:25, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop with your unjustified accusations. Information about Noli's dissertation which was described by great expert in the subject as his major work and standard biography of Skanderbeg is in fact covered by the link you provided:  It is very important to place all critical material in the proper context, and ensure that an overall balanced view is provided. Since it is obvious that our discussion can not resolve our dispute I will proceed with other steps when I will have more time.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:32, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

text: Thanks DS. I will return the information about Noli's dissertation to the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:05, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is dissertation of Fan S. Noli "irrelevant to the subject" and "completely unnecessary"? 

message: There is an attempt to remove assertion referenced with work of Gregory C. Ference, historian who works for Salisbury University and who is specialized in "East Asian/East European history, Habsburgs". If there is any valid reason to remove this assertion it should be explained at this talk page. Until such explanation is given, this assertion will be restored. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:57, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of the referenced assertion 

message: Well, it happens quite a lot in Balkan topics that the same person can be found in different sources in a number of ethnicities. Fan Noli has just four different sources; others have much more (Mother Teresa for example). In order not to get into fringe theories, we should look up the reliability of these sources. It is clear that this article was POV-pushed in this part, as the Albanian 'posibility' of his ethnicity was not even written as a 'possibility' while a number of sources of course say he was Albanian. So, I had to add that. About the three other sources, I have to question their reliability.
1. Athene; we have no author at all, we have no idea if it is a fictional, non-fictionl, historic, or whatever kind of book. 
2. Binder tells to us that Noli reputedly is of Vlach descent and just mentions him in a sentence, that goes on "and in the early years after World War II a number of Albanian Vlachs were elected to the ruling Communist Party's central committee. Tito's Yugoslavia also had a foreign minister, Koca Popovic, of Vlach ancestry, but he distanced himself from his wealthy origins and, indeed, the Yugoslav League of Communists did all it could to expropriate and marginalize previously prominent Vlach families.". It is clear that he himself does not base this alleged thesis on anything and thats why he says reputedly. Thus, I highly question this citation.
3. Naval Review. This one is easier, we all will agree I think that a book written in 1928, when even Noli was young, fails to meet WP:RS.
If in Balkans cases we are not careful in RS than every article would become rediculous. So, I guess, we would agree on this.Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:09, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Sources No. 11 and 12 cannot be verified. The first, a book by a certain Brisku ( p. 34), referes to Theofan Noli as a "colourful Albanian political and intellectual figure", in the same sense that in the lead of this article Noli is "albanian-american", i.e. citizenship.  The source does not refer to his ethnic background which is the subject of this particular paragraph of the article. The second note, by the well-known philo-albanian R. Elsie and co-operators, quotes that  "It was from his family that Fan Noli received a sense of identity as an Albanian" but I could not find this in the book. Can someone indicate the exact page with this claim?  Anyway, both references are not in the proper format (author, book, year, page ).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skylax30 (talk • contribs) 08:20, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

text: The latter source (Elsie etc) is of the type "we are all Albanians". He claims that the bilingual (greek-albanian speakers) of Greece, known as "Arvanites" are "Albanians". Do we still consider this source as reliable? --Skylax30 (talk) 08:55, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: If Elsie is not reliable, then who is? :) He is an expert in Albanian studies Mondiad (talk) 18:05, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  family background 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Since there is no doubt that the name Theofanis Stylianos Mavromatis is Greek (it's cited),  which happens to be the birth name of the subject, it should be also presented in the original form in the way Fan Noli wrote it down (when he attended Greek education and while was a Greek teacher). Alexikoua (talk) 04:48, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It just so happens that Noli was an ethnic Albanian therefore your addition is clearly undue and completely unnecessary. Refrain from making provocative edits again, thanks. Nishjan (talk) 15:22, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: So what? ethnic X doesn't mean that alternative name forms that have been extensively used are not allowed to be mentioned. You understand that your stubborn removal constitutes wp:IDONTLIKEIT and can lead to blocks.Alexikoua (talk) 02:46, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This is English-language Wikipedia. If he was an ethnic Greek, then an addition of the spelling in Greek script would be fine, but since he is not, it actually serves no purpose. Imagine if we added everybody’s name in different scripts that they used, especially within the Balkans (Arabic, Greek, Cyrillic, Latin etc). Botushali (talk) 11:39, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: That's so unnecessary, seriously. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:54, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It's sourced, finally you agree on that, and correspondent scholarship finds it necessay indeed.Alexikoua (talk) 17:24, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Alexikoua, the script you want to add is really unnecessary, several editors oppose your addition. Also, it is clear what you are trying to achieve with that POV edit in the first sentence of the background section of this renowned Albanian figure. – Βατο (talk) 17:57, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: several editors oppose your addition? it appears you can not provide an argument why a 'historically' used script by the subject should not be mentioned in the article. Fan Noli signed under this name, that's sourced. 
On the other hand I can name various occasions where ahistorical scripts are not only unnecessary but also ahistorical (modern Albanian name forms in 18th-19th Arvanite personalities for example).Alexikoua (talk) 19:36, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

text: Cannot be compared. He is Albanian and so are Souliotes. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:40, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Name written in local script