Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Islam/Archive 2

message: Links to partisan Guilds such as the Muslim Guild, Sunni Guild and Shia Guild should be removed.  Guilds and other cabals have no place here anyhow, but if they're going to exist, we shouldn't be linking to them.Timothy Usher 00:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do not remove anything until a consensus is developed. I want to ask other member to merge Muslim Gild and this forum. So wait please and do not delete anything. --- Faisal 03:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

text: If you haven't noticed, those guilds are part of Wikiproject Islam. Unless you happen to get that changed, do not remove them.  BhaiSaab  talk 04:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it okay if I start a Non-Muslim Guild?  Muslims welcome, naturally.Timothy Usher 04:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course it's ok.  BhaiSaab  talk 05:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is already very strong Gild using msn/messanger/etc by propoganda pushers. So why cannot we make one offical (instead of using back doors) on wikipedia. --- Faisal 19:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is?  How can I join?  Tell me how, so I can take a look and report back to you about what's going on.Timothy Usher 19:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion on keeping links to Partisan guilds

message: Re anon's recent edit, "In academia, secular assumption is made."  Precisely.  If this encyclopedia is ever to be a reliable source, it must adhere to academic standards of excellence.Timothy Usher 20:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you talking about this? If so then I agree with you. That should be reverted back. --- Faisal 20:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's what I was talking about.  It's good to see some agreement on these very basic points about why we're here.Timothy Usher 20:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why you think that it imply secularity? The wording of the original text was better. I cannot find any reason for that change done by the unregister-user. --- Faisal 21:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: p.s. that's the user that blanked the Guild talk page.Timothy Usher 21:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to clarify this point here, secularity is not in fact what Wikipedia operates under but rather neutral point of view. That said I think it is safe to say that neutral point of view tends to rather be in accord with secularity. Netscott 22:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In addition to your valid observation about the nature of neutrality as it's commonly used - we shouldn't be neutral betwen neutrality and non-neutrality - WP:NPOV mandates the neutral presentation of the points of view forwarded by reliable sources, where such sources are overwhelmingly secular.Timothy Usher 23:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Secularity

message: Timothy Usher - your recent unilateral changes do not reflect any sort of consensus here. Encouraging others to abide by Wikipedia policy is fine, but when you start making additional rules such as "do not greet others with salam" you need to make sure that everyone is willing to abide by such rules. I, for one, will certainly continue to greet other Muslims with a "salam" if I wish to do so.  BhaiSaab  talk 00:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a non-sectarian encyclopedia.  Your recent contributions lead me to believe that this is a big problem for you.  If you're here to practice your religion, you've come to the wrong place.Timothy Usher 00:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're saying I have no right to say "salam" to other Muslims? Ridiculous.  If I decide to use talkspace to say "salam", that does not effect Wikipedia's status as an encyclopedia. Sarcasm: Your recent contributions lead me to believe that Islam is a big problem for you. BhaiSaab  talk 00:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Thank you, I don't mind at all. I was trying for compromise language, and I think your edit was an improvement. Tom Harrison Talk 03:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Your change is fine, FNB.  It'd be better, however, were they not linked at all.Timothy Usher 03:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I understand the idea behind the prohibition of statements like "salam, brother". Nevertheless, I'd like to think I could say hello in any language I want. I don't see WikiProject Japan prohibiting konichiwas for fear it will exclude those who aren't Japanese. I don't see WikiProject Germany outlawing guten tags. And where are the members of WikiProject Judaism banning shaloms? The idea is somewhat reasonable in theory, but completely absurd in practice. joturner 20:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree completely, Joturner. - Merzbow 20:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Were we truly prohibiting said usage, I'd agree.  But as a practical matter, we're only advising against it.  And yes, I could see how it might be more than a little alienating for a non-Jewish editor to see everyone around him saying "Shalom" to one another (not that I've ever seen this).  I've already brought WikiProject Judaism into compliance on a few issues, and the reception with which I was greeted, while hardly warm, leads me to believe that the problems may not be serious enough to warrant such advice.  Perhaps we can remove them if and when the atmosphere improves.Timothy Usher 21:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is what the WikiProject Islam used to look like before Timothy began making changes  .--JuanMuslim  1m 21:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Changes to WikiProject Islam

message: :Editors should consider carefully before joining the above guilds. They encourage the division of Wikipedians by religion, and have a history of involvement in vote-solicitaiton efforts. Rightly or wrongly, a member may be seen as a partisan who is here to advance a sectarian viewpoint, rather than as an objective contributor with a valuable perspective.
Seriously? What is the purpose of this message? This sounds like an unwarranted smear campaign against the projects. joturner 20:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This language was added as a compromise between removing and retaining the links.  I didn't write it, but I certainly endorse it.  Perhaps the addition of some diffs might be appropriate?Timothy Usher 21:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You would rather have them removed entirely because of your exaggerated claims about them.  BhaiSaab  talk 00:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think what you might be saying is, it could use some diffs to illustrate why and verify that the language is necessary.  Come to think of it, some references for the "do nots" might also be useful.  What do you think?Timothy Usher 00:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What is "diffs"?  BhaiSaab  talk 00:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Diff is short for "difference", i.e., an edit.Timothy Usher 00:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether you present diffs or not, I don't think anyone cares to follow the "do nots" as long as they remain within the limits set by Wikipedia policy. You should discuss the changes you want to make to these pages before you make them, as you've been told elsewhere.  BhaiSaab  talk 00:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Warning about the Muslim, Sunni, and Shia Guilds 

message: Discussion about the possible merger of the WikiProject Islam with the Muslim Guild is located here. --JuanMuslim  1m 21:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger with the Muslim Guild? 

message: :Category:People_killed_by_or_on_behalf_of_Muhammad, not quite sure what to make of it. While it does seem legitimate, I wonder if such a category is in fact needed? Netscott 15:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know what to say other than what the ....  BhaiSaab  talk 23:44, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Discussion is also here, and is longer. Dev920 23:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Interesting new category

message: The project page is ridiculous. Telling people they should restrict or totally eliminate expressions of religious sentiment on their userpage? Who invented the rule against greeting people with 'salaam'? Who feels such a greeting is 'divisive'? If this kind of request were made to a Jewish individual in regards to 'shalom', charges of anti-semetism would be coming down in hailstorms. The Dos and Do Nots are limited to protecting alleged 'enemies of islam'? What about not singling out editors for being allgedly pro-islamic/islamists?
Who wrote these guidelines? I've made some edits to them so they no longer seem to be talking down to just Muslims. Compare the current version to what preceded it, and see if it's an  improvement. His Excellency... 18:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Who wrote these guidelines?" As a new user, you may not yet have noticed that the page's edit history is available by clicking on the "history" tab near the top of the page. Tom Harrison Talk 19:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Timothy Usher did most, if not all, of that.  BhaiSaab  talk 23:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Condescending? 

message: There is currently a discussion going on as to whether the Islamic terrorist section I added to Islam here belongs in the article or not, or indeed whether any mention of Islamic terrorism should be made. Your thoughts and input would be appreciated here. Dev920 18:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My apologies NetScott, I didn't realise the same rule applied here as it does in the muslim guild. Dev920 18:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there's no hard and fast rule, but when I came to this page looking for this notice I didn't immediately find it and had to actually do a diff... it seemed logical to move it for that reason alone. If you disagree with my move by all means revert back to the position it had.  Netscott 18:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, no, wouldn't dream of it. That why I apologised. I shall avoid the same in future. Thanks. :DDev920 18:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: No, the idea was that, like WP:SS says, to link the daughter article to the mother article, by giving an overview of the spunoff article. What I added was the lead section of Islamic extremist terrorism, and provided a for more, see main page Islamic extremist terrorism. That I thought was fair. Dev920 19:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I do think it would be better to not have that section in the "Islam" article. It would be appropriate in the Islamism article though. His Excellency... 19:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Can I please ask why? Why should Islamic terrorism not be in an article about Islam? Why? It is bewildering me that people are writing flat out that it is not "suitable" or "does not belong" and they aren't explaining why. Dev920 19:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Presenting it on the main page of the top-level article skews the presentation, giving terrorism undue weight, and making it look like it's somehow intrinsic to Islam. It also introduces a recentcy bias (if that's a word). With 1500 years of history, we have to be careful not to over-emphasize the last hundred years. Tom Harrison Talk 19:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Going to have to concur with Tom Harrison's view here. "Recent bias" is a bit like recentism. Netscott 20:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's the word, thanks. Tom Harrison Talk 20:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, ignoring the fact that 100 years of terrorism hardly seems recent, Ghazw seems to imply that Islamic terrorism in some form existed well before its current development.  What do you think? Dev920 20:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Certainly 'recent' is not a bright line. As for Ghazw and terrorism, "The degree of resemblance between the two phenomena is a contentious issue." I'm not sure it has any more to do with Islam than piracy has to do with Christianity. Tom Harrison Talk 21:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ghazw, like terrorism, is only a way of waging jihad. Singling out just one form of jihad on the main article on Islam is hardly warranted. Pecher Talk 21:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Perhaps it is if wrongly interpreted lesser jihad is actually terrorism. (Osama Bin laden claiming his terrorism is jihad, etc.) Dev920 21:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Islamic terrorism

message: While there should be (probably is?) a page that suggests how to properly maintain a user page, I don't think the Project Islam page should be such a forum. The purpose of the Wikiproject Islam page is (duh)to improve the quality of Islam-related articles. It was never meant to regulate the behavior of users outside of their direct participation in editing articles.
 "...your user page is not an appropriate place for persuading other editors of the virtues of your way of life."  
On what WP rule or guideline is that based? If it isn't founded in a WP rule at all, do we have a consensus on making that kind of statement here? Given this statement appears in the Wikiproject Islam page, I think it's obvious to which group the statement is aimed at. Have similar statements been addressed categorically to followers of religions other than Islam?
As is, the project page here is coming too close to lecturing how people express themselves on a personal level. It's condescending and offensive. When you consider the "do's" and "don'ts" list as it previously was, the project page was blatantly offensive. I suggest we work on correcting this. His Excellency... 20:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: With WP:USER guidelines, I don't really see a need for additional guidelines here on the project page. Netscott 21:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Reminders of policy exist in all kinds of places on Wikipedia (for example user talk space), wherever they're on-topic.  All the religion project pages, for example, recap WP:NPOV as it relates to their subjects.  We're not duplicated WP:USER in full, only the portion most relevant to this project.  There are also links to reliable sources and a few other policies/guidelines.Timothy Usher 21:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Timothy Usher, I would suggest that you help develop the WP:USER guidelines to be more in accord with your views concerning that subject. Netscott 21:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It already is, it's just that it's not consistently enforced; nor are we enforcing it here.Timothy Usher 21:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No one's enforcing guidelines. Seriously despite the fact that you're going to attack my argument as "wikilawyering", guidelines are just that guidelines not policy, as such there's no specific enforcing of them. Netscott 21:44, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, people do, just not consistently.  I am currently involved in a high-profile dispute where WP:RS is (finally!) being forcibly applied.  Do you dispute that the advice is good?Timothy Usher 21:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose you're aware that almost all policies started out as guidelines. Essentially policies are guidelines that have matured. To better comprehend how to interpret guideline pages please see Wikipedia namespace # Rules, policies,guidelines. Netscott 21:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm fine with rewording - for example, user pages shouldn't be used to besmirch other people's way of life either, as we've recently discusssed, and toning it down a little  -  but it should still be made clear what we are advising.Timothy Usher 22:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  User Pages

message: Amibidhrohi/His excellency, might you be willing to rewrite the "sectarian language" section to be more neutral, rather than just remove it?  Maybe there's a better way we can say this.Timothy Usher 21:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't tell a Jew to stop saying 'shalom'. I won't tell a Muslim to avoid saying salaam.  WP:Civil is already there, and I think it expresses all that everyone would need to know on how to address others. Telling Muslims here to leave their Islam at the door might itself be a violation of civility (assuming the word still has meaning outside of how WP defines it). Above, several nonmuslims have made it clear that they take no offense to Muslims greeting each others with Salaam. BTW, Arabic-speaking Christian use salaam too, so it's not necessarily 'sectarian language'. Anyway, given this is a project to which alot of people signed on to, consensus should be met before making any changes. I suggest we keep things as they are now, until consensus says different. It's neutral, it reminds everyone of their responsibility. His Excellency... 22:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "BTW, Arabic-speaking Christian use salaam too, so it's not necessarily 'sectarian language'." - good point in theory, but kind of silly considering actual practice on Wikipedia.  I've never seen this used in anyway but as a marker of religious solidarity - which, yes, does exclude members of other religions, whether one is conscious of this or not.  By suggesting that users refrain from it, we can raise consciousness about this point.  I fail to understand why you think the promotion of division - deliberate or not - is desirable here.Timothy Usher 22:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You need to consider the fact that the 'salaam' greeting is a fundemental obligation for Muslims, as it is for Jews to say "shalom". It's based on the Hadiths, probably the Qur'an too. Telling a Muslim he shouldn't use the greeting is offensive to him/her, and discriminatory. You're essentially saying "leave your Islam at the door".Walk up to a Jew and tell him to stop saying 'Shalom' to fellow Jews, and see what response you get. What's seen as incivility in the real world is incivility here as well. Until there's a WP:Pretend You're an Athiest, there's no justification for such a request here. His Excellency... 22:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's silly, Amibidhrohi/His excellency.  I know many Muslims and Jews who are perfectly fine with "hello"; this does not constitue apostasy.  While no one's asking that we pretend not to have a religion - I have one, too - Wikipedia is not the right forum for its practice.Timothy Usher 22:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  If they're fine with 'hello', let them say hello. We don't need to walk up to them and suggest we have the right to regulate their personal greetings. You can put this up for RFC if you want. His Excellency... 22:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like His Excellency's version a lot better.  BhaiSaab  talk 23:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: We're not, or shouldn't be, suggesting that we have that right.  We should be giving people tips about how to create an environment where members of all faiths feel welcome, not just one.  Frankly, it's starting to seem that this is precisely what some wish to avoid.  I scarcely need to remind the both of you that there already exists such an environment for those who prefer it, over at the Muslim Guild.Timothy Usher 23:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Everyone is welcome at the Muslim Guild.  BhaiSaab  talk 23:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is, as a matter of historical fact, simply untrue.Timothy Usher 23:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Who have we excluded? You said in your edit summary "stop trying to funnel users to the Muslim Guild." I'm not trying to funnel anyone - you're trying to keep them away. Let people make their own decision.  BhaiSaab  talk 23:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think the point BhaiSaab raises is the elephant in the room. To my knowlege, nothing that's been either explicitly said or implied has ever been posted here to suggest non-Muslims are unwelcome. In fact, those people who do seem to be Muslim here have been bending over backward to not state what's seemingly obvious. You've used your lawyering to attack Faisal's user page. You've gone to admins to have BhaiSaab blocked.You had me blocked, and then pleaded to at least two admins to have my block extended. You've told Muslims to stop saying "salaam". You've told Muslims that if they came to practice their faith, they don't belong here. I'll pretend to assume good faith to the extent of being an idiot, and assume for the sake of arguement that all of that was because you believe in strong enforcement of WP rules. Then "FairAndBalanced" posts a picture on his user page, of a pig with "Allah" photoshopped onto it, in violation of several WP rules, and what do you do? You protest his block. You defend him. What's true for your treatment of people, more importantly, is true in your approach towards articles. WP:RS means alot when content speaks positively of Islam or anything related, but the standards don't seem too important when the content sounds like an indictment. Why the inconsistency? The elephant in the room is not that Muslims have made non-muslims uncomfortable being part of this project, it's that you're working to make Muslims uncomfortable on Wikipedia, period.His Excellency... 23:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text:  I don't want to call you a hypocrite, but I know of few other words to accurately describe your demeanor here. If you're sincere in what you're saying, that you're here to 'secularize' Wikipedia, I expect you'll have no trouble going to the Christianity page and editing to make it clear that Jesus could not have been born to a virgin. I expect you'll find sources that will support the notion that Mary was impregnated by some man.If the likes of Spencer and Ali Sina can be cited here, I'm sure far more credible and critical sources can be used to bring the same level of criticisms to the Christianity pages. Also, I expect you'll add all mention of all the apocryphal material that suggests Jesus wasn't killed on a cross. I expect you spend as much time there as you spent here, illuminating all the critical study that suggests that the 'miracles' of the Jesus story were in fact borrowed from pre-Christian pagan religions. You won't. Word word other than hypocrite makes excuses for someone as offensive as "fairnbalanced", but goes on the attack over personal comments on a userpage? YOU're the one who inserted and repeatedly re-inserted the phrase "do not solicit".. How many times did you go to Percher, Moche, and Tom soliciting their support on Islamic pages? You're the one endlessly complaining about WP standards and application of RS. How many times have you reverted texts in articles to bring back original research that was totally uncited, nevermind the reliability of the nonexistant citations? His Excellency... 01:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Absurd.  You make groundless assumptions based upon what you imagine my hidden intentions to be.  In fact, I defended language on Christianity which suggests exactly that, and have supported a frank discussion of the Nicean council and suppression of heresies.  Such ignorant and personalized commentary, demonstrates that your new username could greatly benefit from a new demeanor.Timothy Usher 02:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sectarian language

message: I never able to specify the names of people I feel pushing propoganda in wikipedia . How can someone else do that? Rules are same for all of us or at least should be same for all of us. Why it not a personal attack (without quoting any evidence) against many people. 
: Does Faisal attempt a neutral point of view? Does BhaiSaab? Does Amibidhrohi? Does JuanMuslim (username, hello?) Does Striver? Does Raphael1? Does Farhansher? Does Autoshade? Does Mystic? These are just a few of the editors we see around these articles who don't bother with the faintest pretense of neutrality, and my understanding has been that we're required to accept it as an alternative point of view. It's pretty silly to make allowances for Middle Eastern religious fanaticism while not tolerating the juvenalia of western right-wing discourse. Were there a policy that editors had to be reasonable, or be hauled before ANI, someone should have let me know, as it'd have saved me and several more scholarly editors than myself (most notably Pecher, the single most valuable contributor to this space by a longshot) a whole lot of trouble.Timothy Usher 12:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Even if it is a personal attack, I will not like to report Timothy right now (unlike he did with me). However, if he continue doing so then we will report him. --- Faisal 23:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The reason I wanted to past Timothy allegations here is that most of the other users (whose names are mentioned above) could be aware of this post. --- Faisal 23:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personal Attack ?? 

message: Someone came up with this brilliant idea for a category. Needless to say, it's up for deletion. His Excellency... 14:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: More vote solicitation? Pecher Talk 14:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Category up for deletion: [[:Category:People killed by or on behalf of Muhammad]]

message: Muslim Jew. Brief reasons on talk. - CrazyRussian talk/email 15:29, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is Jews for Jesus. Tom Harrison Talk 16:33, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rename needed

message: The edits Timothy Usher has been making to the project page here are deliberately insulting and condescending, as I've pointed out earlier on this page. I think we need to consider his work here, and in articles related to Islam, in light of his expressed views regarding Muslims and Islam:
"PBUHing Muhammad is also the PBUHing of the beheading of the Banu Qurayza (did someone mention Abu Ghraib? Did someone mention Zarqawi?), the taking of captives for "wives" (one immediately after her husband was slain), the imposition of serfdom upon the Jews of Khaybar, etc. I oppose the slaughter and enslavement of innocent people, and I oppose PBUHing anyone who's done it. Jimbo Wales (PBUH) seems more appropriate to me.Timothy Usher 11:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Amibidhrohi, I'm not sure what your posting above is supposed to achieve apart from adding another personal attack to your already impressive list and perhaps earning you another block. Pecher Talk 16:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Your remarks are needlessly hostile. Timothy Usher has added some advice to Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam. I think whoever followed it would edit more effectively, and we would all end up with better articles. Some think otherwise. They do not like the advice and want to disregard it, and not even include it on the page. Well, fine, consensus rules. I have been trying to move away from editing articles related to Islam. I do not belong to this project, do not wish to, and would clearly be unwelcome by many other members if I did. I think things could be better, but if you are content with the status quo, I am not going to try to force change upon you. I will enforce the rules, and those rules require civility of everyone, including you; given your past behavior and recent blocks, I am not inclined to give you any more warnings. Tom Harrison Talk 16:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Without getting into this editing war and ideological battle which has been raging for so long now, I will say that I think that Timothy Usher is starting to cross the line from being forthright to being plain rude, and I think he needs to address that. I fail to see, however, why exactly reporting people for breaking 3RR is wrong. As for favouritism, it is not Timothy Usher that repeatedly spams fellowminded users in an attempt to mass vote things in his favour. Dev920 17:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree with this posting relative to it specifically being "out in the open" relative one individual User:Timothy Usher. This posting does reak of the stench of a personal attack and that is not to be condoned. This is not the forum to be discussing such things. An RfC or mediation is more in order. Netscott 17:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would recommend mediation too, if it weren't for the fact there just seem to be too many people to mediate between. The posts here, on the Muslim Guild, and on many Islam related pages, form a war between up to ten different users. I'm not sure if all of them could be mediated between adequately. Dev920 17:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

text:  I considered the possibility of it being taken in as a personal attack. This particular bit of information however is relevant to this particular page. Above, we've discussed how his 'advice' would be offensive to Muslim editors here. Saying that much was more formality than anything else, Timothy Usher has a history of using the most biting terminologies to his target audience (Netscott's done a fine job documenting this on his talk page). He knows precisely what he's saying, and the effects those statements make are the desired one. Nevertheless, out of formalilty, I went through the trouble of vocalizing how particularly offensive it is to tell Muslims that they are to refrain from saying "salaam" to each other. I went through the trouble of pointing out why Timothy telling another Muslim 'if you came here to practice your religion, you shouldnt be on Wikipedia' is wrong. I reminded him of WP:Consensus, other WP rules that he has a talent for lecturing others about, but has difficulty following them himself. He has repeatedly edited the product page, adding in his demands as to how Muslims behave in Wikipedia. It is perfectly fair that someone point out his actual sentiment towards Muslims here. It is fair to point out that what he's demanding is not WP policy, nor the intent of the general Wikipedia community. In that context, it is also fair to point out his own statements that show him to be a devout and practicing bigot. His Excellency... 17:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I've told Timothy on his talk page to please stop changing the Wikiproject Islam page because there are several editors here who do not approve of his changes, yet he still continues to do so.  BhaiSaab  talk 17:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to point out that Timothy Usher put those dos and donts up on the 6th of June, and EVERYONE, not just you and him, but Faisal, Pecher, and others, have been warring over it since. You have both written impolite edit summaries - I think this is a case where a compromise CAN be  made, but everyone needs to talk to each other rather than slinging mud. Dev920 18:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Timothy Usher|Timothy Usher]]'s Participation here, and in articles dealing with Islam

message: Hi, The article Awwam ibn Khuwaylid was just prodded, I de-prodded it - but it is very very thin at the moment. Can someone take 10 minutes and write a decent stub making his notability clear. Many thanks. Megapixie 12:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Awwam ibn Khuwaylid]] 

message: Perhaps fellow editors could have a look at Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_June_17#Category:Modern_victims_of_Islamic_decapitation. Thanks. Netscott 12:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Another Category

message: Something that should be interesting. Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dhimmi His Excellency... 16:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Been closed... another misuse of AfD - CrazyRussian talk/email 17:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Dhimmi]] up for deletion 

message: I have noticed that there are many article about bible figures that specifically deal with the Islamic view point.  Some of them are named by a transliteration of the Islamic name (Nuh, Lut, Ibrahim) and others are in the form of Islamic views of.. (Islamic view of Jesus and Qur'anic account of Solomon).  And some just redirect to the regular article that may or may not have a section on the Islamic perspective.  As an outsider I find the inconsistency a bit annoying.  I would prefer that all of them are in the form "Islamic views of..."  for a few reason.  First it makes it clearer that it is talking about the same person,  Second it focus the article to the Islamic view and does not need to repeat anything said in the main article, third transliteration from another language (granted all the names are not originally English - they have turn into English i.e. the main article is Moses not Moshe (Hebrew) or Musa) should be avoid if possible.  In any event, I think it is important to have a consistent approach whatever that may be.  Jon513 21:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistency 

message: WikiProject Central Asia has just been founded, and there are several topics about Islam in Central Asia that aren't covered very well or at all in Wikipedia. If anyone here has expertise (or interest in learning more), the following articles could use creation (from list of Asia-related topics): Islam - Central Asia, Ismaili Sects - Central Asia, Islam - Mongolia. Aelfthrytha 23:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request Assistance 

message: Baidawi is a copy of an article in the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica, added as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles. I know nothing about the topic but it probably has several POV problems, including one of historical context. Please don't delete the article though. David Brooks 15:38, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for help: [[Baidawi]] 

message: In the 'Do's and Dont's' section, the first point says:
Seek to bring the Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam up to standards with the Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity and the Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism.
but I don't think those projects are much better than Wikiproject Islam. For a start, their project pages are not that great. At least we have clear aims and a comprehensive (but not complete) manual of style. MP   (talk) 18:21, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is it really that bad ? 

message: Some duplicate categories are up at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion and this project is an obvious stakeholder which should have input developing a consensus. There is also a container category problem.
* Rename/redirect: Category:Islamic dynasties to Category:Muslim dynasties
* Rename/redirect: Category:Islamic empires to Category:Muslim empires
* Merge: Category:Caliphates to Category:Caliphate (or vice versa)
The first two should obviously be combined but the name should be chosen by consensus. The second seems to me to be two potentially separate categories that could possibly have better names. --Dhartung | Talk 20:12, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category renaming 

message: Hi.  Just wanted to let people know about the creation of this infobox.  I think it needs some work and figured this is the best way to get the word out. gren グレン 08:39, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Template:Infobox Sura]] 

message: I've re-written that section so it's more cordial. Please comment on suggestions for that section if anything's left out. His Excellency... 19:13, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's certainly friendlier than the previous version. Looks good. MP   (talk) 22:10, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewriting "Dos and Do Nots"

message: I've just created a new section in the project page highlighting a handful of important things that need to be done. Feel free to add more. MP   (talk) 17:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New section on 'things to do' 

message: I apologise if this is in the wrong place but there is a discussion on Roles of non-combatant State and non-State actors in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict talkpage about the inclusion of detail for Israel.  I am of the view that Israel should be included but the detail is being continually removed by User:Tewfik. 
Tewfik's argument is what he considers the illegality of Hezbollah under UN 1559.  How this has a bearing on a balanced representation of aid to the combatants is never made clear.  Tewfik has not removed recent requests of arms sales to Israel such as jet fuel and GBU-28's but removed the history of such arms shipments. I believe he is pushing the POV that aid to Israel is only in response to the current crisis or the illegality of Hezbollah under 1559. US aid to Israel is in fact a long standing agreement responsible for the size and makeup of the IDF.  Without the aid they would not have a military capable of engaging in conflict.  This is a question of balance in the article and if you can take a look and support my position (was working under 82.29.227.171) that would be great. RandomGalen 17:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Care to comment?

message: Are books written by authors under pseudonyms permissible as 'reliable sources'? Many sources in Islamic articles are written by authors whose backgrounds are hidden. Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina, and Bat Ye'or are all pseudonyms of the actual writers. His Excellency... 23:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources written by authors under pseudonyms 

message: There have recently been a spade of well-intentioned but probably rather unencyclopedic edits to Fatwa by a new contributor. Someone who knows something about the subject should have a look at it, I think. Sandstein 20:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Fatwa]] 

message: Hello! We at the Work via WikiProjects team for Wikipedia 1.0 would like you to identify the "key articles" from your project that should be included in a small CD release due to their importance, regardless of quality. We will use that information to assess which articles should be nominated for Version 0.5 and later versions.  Hopefully it will help you identify which articles are the most important for the project to work on. As well, please add to the Islam WikiProject article table any articles of high quality. If you are interested in developing a worklist such as this one (new) for your WikiProject, or having a bot generate a worklist like this one automatically for you, please contact us.  Please feel free to post your suggestions right here.  Thanks! Walkerma 04:39, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Key articles for Wikipedia 1.0 

message: Please forgive my ignorance in this matter. Is it true that "All Arabic copies of the Koran have the mysterious figure 786 imprinted on them"? That's claimed in this edit, which I reverted already once. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 11:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  786 

message: Please offer your opinion, vote, or whatever about your choice for the image to be used with the Islamic Barnstar Award at the Barnstar proposals page. Although there is consensus for the concept of an Islamic Barnstar Award, some editors would like to change the image for the award. I was just thinking you should be aware of this discussion because you have contributed to Islamic-related articles, received the Islamic Barnstar Award, or have contributed to the Islam-related Wikiprojects, etc.--JuanMuslim  1m 13:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islamic Barnstar Award 

message: While it is only peripherally related to Islam, I figured I might as well announce it here.  I recently wrote a new article on the Arab lobby in the United States.  The article needs more contributors and/or suggestions for improvement.  --Ben Houston 01:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New semi-related article: [[Arab lobby in the United States]] 

message: Apologies if this is not the right place to ask.  This article: OWMC was prod'd, deleted, restored and is now up for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/OWMC.  Can anyone here throw any light on its authenticity? -- I@n 05:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Older Women's Muslim Community 

message: I see the Muslim community spelled in most articles like this: "Umma" but the Wiki page umma is about something else and Ummah is the Muslim community.  Could you guys consider fixing this?  It seems like the Muslim "Umma" is the bigger topic.  Elizmr 20:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question about Umma