Talk:Táin Bó Cúailnge

message: I'll double check, but I believe that there are three disctint recensions or versions, LU, Leinster, and then the Stowe/Lecan traditions.
DigitalMedievalist 05:32, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Three distinct versions

message: Oughtn't we mention the Lady Gregory translation? Darkfrog24 14:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Very belated response, but Lady Gregory didn't do a translation of the Táin. She wrote Cúchulainn of Muirthemne, a collection of paraphrases of a large number Ulster Cycle tales, including a much-abridged version of the Táin. --Nicknack009 (talk) 20:43, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lady Gregory

message: I removed the reference to "[Samuel Butler's version of] Homer's Odyssey" in relation to the age of the Tain because it didn't make any sense to me--surely there are a number of older vernacular translations of the Odyssey than Butler's if that's what it was trying to suggest, though even that seems odd to me--but now as the quotation exists I still don't find it satisfying.  Since I do not have access to the text from which it was taken I cannot say exactly how it should read, but surely there's little evidence to claim that the Tain as we have it is older than the epics of Homer?  Can somebody who knows more about all of this check this out please?  (138.16.59.36 (talk) 04:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Also weird is that the claim made is that the Táin is the oldest story of Western Europe, so comparisons with the Odyssey (which is from Eastern Europe) are moot. Oh, and the Iliad is older than the Odyssey, so why pick Greece's second-oldest epic? But indeed, the cited source says, "The Táin Bó Cuailnge represents the oldest vernacular tale of Western Europe, predating both Beowulf and Homer’s Odyssey (Butler)." Maybe the point is that Butler's translation of the Odyssey is from Western Europe? But then it's trivial that the Táin is older than a translation that was published in 1900. Anyway, the source the quote it's taken from doesn't present any evidence to back up the claim, and the website is anonymous, so we have no way of determining how reliable it is. If no one presents compelling reasons to keep this weird claim in, I'll take it out in a few days. —Angr 17:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's ridiculous to claim that the Táin is older than the Odyssey itself. The oldest surviving allusion to it is the poem Conailla Medb Michuru, which is dated to c. 600. From the context we can probably assume it had been around in some form for some time before that, but how long it's impossible to say. I wouldn't be prepared to push it any further back than the 4th century. Another editor (User:Cordless Larry) added the quote, and rather than simply delete it and risk getting involved in an edit war, I modified it to what the site seemed to be saying - treating Butler's translation of the Odyssey as an English "vernacular epic". I agree the article would be better off losing it entirely, but so long as it's here it needs the qualification that it's Butler's translation rather than the Odyssey itself that it's older than. --Nicknack009 (talk) 19:01, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Could the website perhaps be saying that it's Butler's claim that the Táin is older than the Odyssey? If so, Butler certainly doesn't say it in the preface to his Odyssey translation. Anyway, I'm not prepared to take that website's word for anything. —Angr 19:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Since no-one has offered anything in this quote's defence, I've removed it, and, in the interests of demonstrating the age of the Táin, added some details showing that elements of the story were already in place in the 7th century. --Nicknack009 (talk) 17:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Quotation in opening

message: Unless I am mistaken, doesn't the Táin exist in several different versions, some of which are in Old Irish and some of which are in Middle Irish?  The intro section as it stands now gives the impression that it is a single text written in two different languages ("It is written in Old and Middle Irish...").  The later sections reflect the situation very accurately, but if (as I believe is the case) it exists as several different texts, each of which comes from a different source and some of which are considerably earlier than others, shouldn't the sentence in the intro reflect this?  How about "The earlier and more fragmentary versions of the tale are written in Old Irish, but a later and more complete version is in Middle Irish.  The story is mainly written in prose, with verse sections occurring at moments of heightened tension or emotion."  The only version I have is the Book of Leinster version, incidentally.  Lexo (talk) 01:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Lede

message: This is not a very useful word to use in an encyclopedia article, because it's a technical term in textual scholarship and most people who will be reading the article will not know what it means.  Most people who write the article will know what it means, because we all read Old and Middle Irish texts for fun and we're used to it; but I think that although "recension" packs a lot of info into itself, it would be more helpful to give a brief explanation about the nature of the different recensions and then to use the simple word "version" to refer to them as they arise.  Lexo (talk) 01:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Usefulness of "Recension" as a term

message: There is the basis for a really fine article here, and Nicknack009 in particular deserves all praise for a lot of hard work, but right now I think it reads a little too much like an entry in a handbook for language students; it assumes too much prior knowledge of the subject and does not explain enough to the general reader.  There is also, IMO, not nearly enough about the impact of the story on the Celtic Revival authors - one obscure band gets a mention for their EP, but W.B. Yeats doesn't get a mention for The Death of Cuchulainn?  The Cuchulainn story is enormously influential in Irish culture and this being the main source of much of it, there should be a lot more about the impact it has had.  (If I want to post a parcel in central Dublin, I have to walk past the statue of Cuchulainn in the GPO.) Lexo (talk) 01:28, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. The point about assuming too much prior knowledge is probably a fair one, and I'll have a look and see what can be done about that. As for Yeats and the GPO statue, I'm less sure. Yeats wrote a number of Cúchulainn plays - as detailed in the Cúchulainn article, On Baile's Strand, The Green Helmet, At the Hawk's Well, The Only Jealousy of Emer and The Death of Cuchulain, and a poem, "Cuchulain's Fight With the Sea". I've only read the last of these, but none of them actually seem based on the Táin, but on other stories from the cycle (unless they contain material from the Táin?). The Revival authors, to my limited knowledge, concentrated more on the more sentimental end of the Ulster Cycle - Deirdre, the death of Connla, Cúchulainn's death. The only part of the Táin that really seems to have attracted their attention is the fight with Fer Diad, and I'm not aware of any significant literary work based on that. In conclusion, any Revival work that directly relates to the Táin certainly deserves inclusion here (and if you're familiar with it, edit away), but more general Cúchulainn-related works should be at Cúchulainn and/or Ulster Cycle, with perhaps a brief note here directing readers there. Similarly, the GPO statue is based on Cúchulainn's death-tale, not on the Táin, and is covered at Cúchulainn (although a photo would be nice - would you be willing to take and donate one?). There's apparently a statue of Cúchulainn and Fer Diad at Ardee that would certainly deserve inclusion here. --Nicknack009 (talk) 11:11, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I can certainly take and donate a photo of the statue, although I have not had much success uploading pictures to wikipedia.  The point about Cuchulainn related stuff belonging in the article on him or the Ulster Cycle is well taken, and I'll see if I can contribute anything there instead.  I am as reasonably familiar with Yeats' plays about C. as I am with the Tain itself (I've actually seen performances of the whole of Yeats' Cuchulainn cycle, for example - the only reason I mentioned the last one in my original post is that it's IMO by far the best one.) Lexo (talk) 
11:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I will get around to that photo, but in the meantime I have added a redirect page from a common misspelling of the title - "tain bo cualnge" now redirects to here.  Incidentally, anyone who wants to contribute anything to the page I created on Aislinge Meic Con Glinne is more than welcome to do so. Lexo (talk) 00:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: General thoughts

message: That seems more natural -- is there some rule that when it is "just Táin" it takes "the", but when we give the full name it is treated like the title of a modern novel? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:34, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why no definite article in the lead sentence? 

message: However much it was influenced by oral tradition the Táin as we have it is a literary composition. Cu Chulainn does not die at the end of TBC. Other oral versions are not the Táin, and thus are not what this article is about. Cu Chulainn's death has absolutely no place whatsoever in a synopsis of the TBC's plot and should be removed. Hochithecreator (talk) 19:30, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cu Chulainn's "Death"!?