Talk:Jakob Lorber

message: This article needs to be rewritten from a more neutral point of view. As it stands, it accepts the accuracy of Lorber's visions, and Christianity in general, as undisputed fact. Adding NPOV message. --Gwalla 06:41, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
:NPOV message had been removed without any evidence of editing in accordance with Gwalla's comment. Re-added NPOV message.
:C'mon, it's still not neutral. The claims about Lorber having known modern physics before it was developed are not substantiated in this article. Re-re-added NPOV message.
::-- Did much research, made significant changes, added new material and footnotes, removed some portions which were not easily supported in a few words. Also changed the language to NPOV throughout, understanding that many of the points made by Lorber cultivate faith, which is itself outside the scope of NPOV, which is a viewpoint predicated in skepticism. I sought for the point of equilibrium which handles both concerns, and anticipate future additions and corrections to refine this. Jds 21:47, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV problems

message: This articles needs better sources and re-formatting sources using ref-tags. As the current sources are rather week, reformatting them looked like a waste of time to me, otherwise I'd have started. --Pjacobi (talk) 11:34, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: I agree that the Austrian 'ethnicity' was in the formative stage during Lorber's lifetime, and that consequently the only unambiguously correct adjective that can be applied is "a Styrian mystic".
However, it is my impression that Lorber is commonly referred to as an "Austrian mystic" in literature, purely de facto, and of course Wikipedia must follow common usage. --dab (𒁳) 11:13, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no need to use anachronisms, especially because in Slovenia it is frequently mentioned that Lorber was a Slovene prophet/mystic/musician and the surname of his mother also sounds Slovene (Kavčič is a common Slovene surname). It is also common to refer to Lorber as a German. WP:NAME is irrelevant here as it concerns only article titles. There's no need to use ambiguous adjectives in the text and to unnecessary provoke national sentiments. --Eleassar my talk 14:14, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

text: Correcting myself but perhaps a Germanized version of Tavčar? Also a common Slovene surname. --Eleassar my talk 17:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: nationality/ethnicity

message: The theology section have been deleted because it also appears in the Great Gospel of John.
I have included some more content to the summary of the Great Gospel of John on this page.
Hope you can agree..
(~~Torchrunner~~)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Torchrunner (talk • contribs) 17:05, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Theology section

message: Even though Jakob Lorber lived only later than Emanuel Swedenborg, he was highly respected by Lorber. In his second book, 'The Spiritual Son' part 2 (1846), chapter 14, Lorber mentions Swedenborg as the reincarnated prophet Daniel from the bible.
Emanuel Swedenborg however was the founder of the Swedenborgianism Church. The Swedenborgian Rite was named after Emanuel Swedenborg and The Supreme Council of the Rite was composed initially of members of the Swedenborgian Church. Beswick stated that the genuine Swedenborgian Rite was known as the "Primitive and Original Rite of Symbolic Masonry". It consisted of six degrees:
I. Temple Masonry or York Rite:
a. Entered Apprentice
b. Fellow Craft
c. Master Mason
2. Primitive and Original Rite of Symbolic Masonry:
d. Enlightened Freemason, or Green Brother
e. Sublime Freemason, or Blue Brother
f. Perfect Freemason, or Red Brother
All the officers of high rank were members of the Swedenborgian Church,.
MLR - Swedenborg The Rite and "The Balustre", May 1902 http://www.mainemason.org/mlr/swedenborg4.htm
This Swedenborg Rite (freemasonary), was later eagerly supported by occultists Theodor Reuss (close friend of occultist Madame Blavatsky [] (New Age spirituality founder, who also formed the Société Spirité for occult phenomenaIrregular)  and Leopold Engel (author of the 11th book of 'The Great Gospel of John' which was started by Jakob Lorber). Both Engel and Reuss worked together to revive the illuminati, which has as its's goal a one world religion and a one world government. Theodor Reuss, Freemasonary in Germany 1900-23, Bro. Ellic Howe and Prof. Helmut Moller (Gottingen) AQC 16 Feb 1978 http://www.mastermason.com/luxocculta/reuss.htm 
* I included this section. I did so much research to bring this all together. Why was this just deleted without any explanation?
(Torchrunner (talk) 19:02, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You touched on the reason right there.  Please consult WP:OR however, beyond that, there have been concerns about recent edits to this article and so I reverted to what I saw as the last stable version to encourage discussion and consensus building on the edits here rather than edit warring.Simonm223 (talk) 19:08, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

text: Ok, I am in danger of breaking WP:CIVIL at this point so I'm taking a break from this article until tomorrow.  The last thing I go, for the fifth time, read wikipedia's policies on original research, seriously, read it.
Ok, but maybe somebody in the world would want to look into what I am saying and write an article about this, bringing these things together. I have not written articles before, so I think there may be somebody better up to it, but if no interest I can try and publish it elsewhere. This thing is so big and so important and it affects many many lives. Lorber readers are not just exposed to some harmless reading for entertainment or religious perspective, they are exposed to wicked evil.
(Torchrunner (talk) 04:17, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

text: Yes, please publish your original resarch elsewhere. Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. Singularity42 (talk) 04:27, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Occult roots 

message: The Great Gospel of John was written over the course of several years in the middle 1800s, in Austria. Occultist, Leopold Engel, reviver of the Illuminati Leopold Engel: Geschichte des Illuminatenordens  , in 1891 wrote  an addendum in an "11th volume", purportedly also based on interior locution. The Great Gospel is a detailed first-person narrative of Jesus' last three years of ministry on Earth. It is a day by day account of his miracles, healings, and conversations. It is built on the same structure of the original Gospel of John. The biblical gospel of John however places a strong emphasis on grace, whilst in the 'Great Gospel of John', love, and particularly works of love, are emphasised and considered even more important than truth.  John1:16,17 compared to 'Great Gospel' book 1 chapter 70. Some sections of the biblical Gospel of John are not covered in this writing, whereas large sections are added which does not appear in the biblical Gospel of John.
In the final chapter of the 11th book, closing reason and objective of the book is highlighted by the author himself in the three verses of the chapter.
:# to reveal the physical life of Jesus on earth and what was made visible on earth
:# to emphasise that what happened spiritually has not fully been revealed yet, as the earth is yet to unripe to receive it, even those who adhere to the teachings in the book and to announce a time that will come when this will also be revealed.
:# to encourage the readers to be satisfied with what they have received, for a time will come when the nations will become closer to one another and where the earth will become a place of peace.
(Torchrunner (talk) 15:02, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: The Great Gospel of John

message: I deleted it earlier, for I do not see the need to have a theology section here and then also in the Great Gospel of John, except if it says the same thing.
I see it is back now, due to the reverts.
I include here a copy of the theology section of the great gospel...
===Theology and Religious practice===
In chapter 10:17 of the first book of the Great Gospel of John, Lorber explains the gospel of salvation as three steps.
Firstly a person needs to master his flesh. Secondly he needs to purify his soul through works of love. Thirdly a person's spirit needs to be awakened from the grave of judgement.
These three steps are described as the process of rebirth. In chapter 18:8 the Lord is described to explain to Nicodemus that to be born of water means to be born of humility, and only then by the Spirit of Truth, which is described to be impossible to be received by an inpure spirit. This is how entry to the Kingdom of God is described to be made possible.
This differs from the biblical message of salvation as per orthodox christianity who claims that salvation is available to "whosoever believes" in Jesus, no matter how sinful their past, all because of the love and kindness of God.The Gospel Message http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/the-gospel-message.htm 
In chapter 62 of the first book of the Great Gospel of John, the mission of Jesus on Earth is described as to invite those from darkness to the Kingdom of love (via his message of love). 
Verse 9 describes that up to date, not one soul could, when she left her body, lose herself from the earth and that countless suffer in the night of the earth. It is described that when Jesus ascends to heaven he will open the heavens and in exactly the same way every person will enter eternal life. 
It is described that this is the task of universal reconciliation which the Messiah has to accomplish and absolutely nothing else. Jesus came to Earth, according to Lorber's writings, to bring people to the right path, through friendly and loving teaching. ("Great gospel of John V11 188:11)
The 'Great Gospel' does not place emhpasis on the crucifixion of Christ, nor on the blood of Jesus for the atonement of sin, but emphasises only the teaching of love and it's adherance by followers as means to salvation.
 
Lorber does not reveal Jesus as one of three in a holy Trinity. In chapter 197 of the seventh book of the Great Gospel of John it is described that within his being is two aspects. The one is love and the other is the outpouring of a flame of life. These two is then considered one. Jesus alone is considered God (Monophysitism).
In chapter 23:6 of the first book of the Great Gospel of John, it is explained that only one thing is necessary, and that is to adhere to the teaching of Jesus. Baptism is described as a type of washing, that has some benefits and it is described that after Jesus's teaching many went to be baptised by John. Repentance is not a requirement for this type of baptism as is indicated in the Acts church in the biblical account of baptism. 
In chapter 59 of the first book of the Great Gospel of John, it is described how Jesus corrects a God-fearing man, by telling him it is not right for him to have fear of God as the only thing God wants is love. In chapter 58 of the second book of the Great Gospel of John verse 3, the angel explains that one should speak to God as if He was one's equal. None of the benefits of fear of God as mentioned in scriptures are mentioned in the 'Great Gospel'.
In chapter 63 of the first book of the Great Gospel of John, it is described how Jesus gave his followers heavenly wine which helped them to love more. It was a special kind of wine, which only increased the amount of love of those who already had love, but which could not produce love where there was none to start with. Christian communion which are mentioned 43 times in the New Testament Communion_(Christian) are replaced by this special type of wine in the 'Great Gosel' of John.
In chapter 70 of the first book of the Great Gospel of John, it is preached that judgement can never be out of love, and how where there is no love there can be no truth either. The reader is assured that as long as he holds on to love, he will find truth everywhere. Opponent of neo-evangelism, Dr. John C. Whitcomb, Jr, points out that there is no teaching whatsoever in the New Testament suggesting that love is more important than doctrine or Truth, in his article "when love divorces doctrine and unity rejects truth"When love divorces doctrine and unity rejects Truth, Dr. John C. Whitcomb, Jr http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Introduction/lovedoc.htm Fear_of_God_(religion).
In chapter 26 of the second book of the Great Gospel of John, it is elaborated how the law of Moses is to be kept. There is no differentiation made in Lorber's writings between an Old Covenant and a New Covenant. 
In chapter 77 verse 5 of the second book of the Great Gospel of John, the appropriate measures of love are explained. Six measures to self. Sixty to ones neighbour and six hundred to God.  Joel Mawhorter however points out in his article "love your neighbour as you love yourself" that the commandment of Jesus in Mat 22:39 could be interpreted to say that I must love my neighbor neither more nor less than I love myself. []Love your neighbour, Joel Mawhorter http://joel.mawhorter.org/loveyourneighboressay.html Fear_of_God_(religion)
In the Great Gospel of John it is also explained how sex between a husband and wife is bad for their spiritual development and how it should be restricted only to when an offspring is planned. In chapter 242 of the first book of the Great Gospel of John, it is preached that certain food should be avoided to the benefit of the spiritual development of the soul. Such foods includes green fruits, potatoes and coffee. Nathan E. Quinn disagrees with this in his expository of 1Tim4, and says that no person should feel that just because they are a Christian means they cannot enjoy things in life Expository 1 Tim4,  Nathan E. Quinn.
Can we please discuss an optimal solution?
(Torchrunner (talk) 19:28, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What, precisely do you mean by an optimal solution, in one paragraph or less please.Simonm223 (talk) 19:31, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

text: I suggest in the section on Lorber, Theology, we refer to the theology section in The Great Gospel of John and don't add a seperate section here. Especially not a completely different type one.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Torchrunner (talk • contribs) 20:00, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Theology section

message: In chapter 10:17 of the first book of the Great Gospel of John, Lorber explains the gospel of salvation as three steps.
Firstly a person needs to master his flesh. Secondly he needs to purify his soul through works of love. Thirdly a person's spirit needs to be awakened from the grave of judgement.
These three steps are described as the process of rebirth. In chapter 18:8 the Lord is described to explain to Nicodemus that to be born of water means to be born of humility, and only then by the Spirit of Truth, which is described to be impossible to be received by an inpure spirit. This is how entry to the Kingdom of God is described to be made possible.
This differs from the biblical message of salvation as per orthodox christianity who claims that salvation is available to "whosoever believes" in Jesus, no matter how sinful their past, all because of the love and kindness of God.The Gospel Message http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/the-gospel-message.htm 
In chapter 62 of the first book of the Great Gospel of John, the mission of Jesus on Earth is described as to invite those from darkness to the Kingdom of love (via his message of love). 
Verse 9 describes that up to date, not one soul could, when she left her body, lose herself from the earth and that countless suffer in the night of the earth. It is described that when Jesus ascends to heaven he will open the heavens and in exactly the same way every person will enter eternal life. 
It is described that this is the task of universal reconciliation which the Messiah has to accomplish and absolutely nothing else. Jesus came to Earth, according to Lorber's writings, to bring people to the right path, through friendly and loving teaching. ("Great gospel of John V11 188:11)
The 'Great Gospel' does not place emhpasis on the crucifixion of Christ, nor on the blood of Jesus for the atonement of sin, but emphasises only the teaching of love and it's adherance by followers as means to salvation.
 
Lorber does not reveal Jesus as one of three in a holy Trinity. In chapter 197 of the seventh book of the Great Gospel of John it is described that within his being is two aspects. The one is love and the other is the outpouring of a flame of life. These two is then considered one. Jesus alone is considered God (Monophysitism).
In chapter 23:6 of the first book of the Great Gospel of John, it is explained that only one thing is necessary, and that is to adhere to the teaching of Jesus. Baptism is described as a type of washing, that has some benefits and it is described that after Jesus's teaching many went to be baptised by John. Repentance is not a requirement for this type of baptism as is indicated in the Acts church in the biblical account of baptism. 
In chapter 59 of the first book of the Great Gospel of John, it is described how Jesus corrects a God-fearing man, by telling him it is not right for him to have fear of God as the only thing God wants is love. In chapter 58 of the second book of the Great Gospel of John verse 3, the angel explains that one should speak to God as if He was one's equal. None of the benefits of fear of God as mentioned in scriptures are mentioned in the 'Great Gospel'.
In chapter 63 of the first book of the Great Gospel of John, it is described how Jesus gave his followers heavenly wine which helped them to love more. It was a special kind of wine, which only increased the amount of love of those who already had love, but which could not produce love where there was none to start with. Christian communion which are mentioned 43 times in the New Testament Communion_(Christian) are replaced by this special type of wine in the 'Great Gosel' of John.
In chapter 70 of the first book of the Great Gospel of John, it is preached that judgement can never be out of love, and how where there is no love there can be no truth either. The reader is assured that as long as he holds on to love, he will find truth everywhere. Opponent of neo-evangelism, Dr. John C. Whitcomb, Jr, points out that there is no teaching whatsoever in the New Testament suggesting that love is more important than doctrine or Truth, in his article "when love divorces doctrine and unity rejects truth"When love divorces doctrine and unity rejects Truth, Dr. John C. Whitcomb, Jr http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Introduction/lovedoc.htm Fear_of_God_(religion).
In chapter 26 of the second book of the Great Gospel of John, it is elaborated how the law of Moses is to be kept. There is no differentiation made in Lorber's writings between an Old Covenant and a New Covenant. 
In chapter 77 verse 5 of the second book of the Great Gospel of John, the appropriate measures of love are explained. Six measures to self. Sixty to ones neighbour and six hundred to God.  Joel Mawhorter however points out in his article "love your neighbour as you love yourself" that the commandment of Jesus in Mat 22:39 could be interpreted to say that I must love my neighbor neither more nor less than I love myself. []Love your neighbour, Joel Mawhorter http://joel.mawhorter.org/loveyourneighboressay.html Fear_of_God_(religion)
In the Great Gospel of John it is also explained how sex between a husband and wife is bad for their spiritual development and how it should be restricted only to when an offspring is planned. In chapter 242 of the first book of the Great Gospel of John, it is preached that certain food should be avoided to the benefit of the spiritual development of the soul. Such foods includes green fruits, potatoes and coffee. Nathan E. Quinn disagrees with this in his expository of 1Tim4, and says that no person should feel that just because they are a Christian means they cannot enjoy things in life Expository 1 Tim4,  Nathan E. Quinn.
Can we please discuss an optimal solution?
(Torchrunner (talk) 19:28, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What, precisely do you mean by an optimal solution, in one paragraph or less please.Simonm223 (talk) 19:31, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

text: I suggest in the section on Lorber, Theology, we refer to the theology section in The Great Gospel of John and don't add a seperate section here. Especially not a completely different type one.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Torchrunner (talk • contribs) 20:00, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Theology and Religious practice

message: Do you think we should include a section about the relationship between Swedenborg and Lorber?
Thomas Noack, in his article 'Swedenborg and Lorber: The Relationship between two Revelations, 2008' wrote:
"Swedenborg looks from the earth to the immeasurable breadth in the
spiritual world. The question that interests him is: Where is man and
mankind bound? Lorber, on the other hand, looks more in the opposite
direction: Wherefrom does man, mankind, and the whole drama of
creation come? Certainly, the wither is not absent in Lorber. However, a
characteristic of the work of this scribe is his interests in the material
realm of creation."
http://www.scribd.com/mobile/documents/9719797/download
(Torchrunner (talk) 16:12, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: An essay from some random reverend does not necessarily constitute a reliable source.Simonm223 (talk) 16:27, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: I thought I would create a summary section, since there are a lot of comments all over the place, and it would be helpful to editors just joining the discussion have an idea of what's happening. Please feel free to correct or add as necessary. (By the way, most of this is obvious Wikipedia policy, but at this point I thought it makes sense repeating it a bit here.)
*Information cannot be added to the article that does not have a reliable source. Reliable sources that review Lorber and his work do not include just straight references to Bible quotes. It can include some statements from the Evangelical Chruch of Germany. It generally does not include comments by random reverands.
*While some editors feel strongly about Lorber and his work (including either wanting to make sure the public knows about it so they can see how great it is, or wanting to make sure the public knows about it so they avoid going to hell), that is not what Wikipedia is. When you start down that road, you end up preaching the work or criticizing the work using orignal research, which is not allowed.
*Wikipedia is not a place for editors to publish their views about Lorber and his work. See WP:NOT#OR.
*Puting up two properly references sources, and then asking readers (directly or indirectly) to compare the sources to reach a conclusion is against Wikipedia policy. Conclusions can only be posted (including implied conclusions) if there is reliable source that has drawn the conclusion. It does not matter how obvious the conclusion is to the editor.
Singularity42 (talk) 17:56, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summary 

message: See  EXPOSING THE ROLE OF CHRISTIAN MYSTICS AND NEO-REVELATIONISTS SUCH AS JAKOB LORBER, EMANUEL SWEDENBORG AND LEOPOLD ENGEL, IN THE PLAN OF THE ILLUMINATI TO BRING ABOUT A NEW BIBLE AND NEW WORLD ORDER http://www.foundationsofchristianity.co.za 
(Torchrunner (talk) 05:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doctrine 

message: In keeping with WP:FRINGE and WP:SYNTH I have yet again removed unsourced claims that attempt to imply Lorber's involvement with this fictitious conspiracy.Simonm223 (talk) 15:27, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illuminati 

message: I'm not sure if using the term "Visionary" with no citations is encyclopedic. I think the best thing to do would be to simply remove the term, but I imagine there must be many supporters of Lorber who have used it. Granted whether that counts as him actually being one or not is certainly still debatable. Colincbn (talk) 02:41, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Visionary? 

message: I just deleted two broken internet links
--Avoye (talk) 12:15, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  the broken internet links 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Jakob Lorber. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20041222051335/http://j-lorber.com/English/Text/GEJ1.html to http://www.j-lorber.com/English/Text/GEJ1.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 07:19, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Jakob Lorber. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090527013318/http://www.merkurpublishing.com/jakob_lorber_main_book_page.htm to http://www.merkurpublishing.com/jakob_lorber_main_book_page.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090221155049/http://www.merkurpublishing.com/letter_of_saint_paul_to_the_laodiceans.htm to http://www.merkurpublishing.com/letter_of_saint_paul_to_the_laodiceans.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090221155049/http://www.merkurpublishing.com/letter_of_saint_paul_to_the_laodiceans.htm to http://www.merkurpublishing.com/letter_of_saint_paul_to_the_laodiceans.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:03, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: it says Austrian musician. Should be Slovenian mystic. Or channeler? Jiuk (talk) 23:22, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  subheadings strange 

message: There was a sentence written as follows:
 However, the First Vatican Council of 1869/1870 placed Lorber's writings on the Index of Forbidden Books.
However, this was never cited. After further research, it seems as though Lorber’s works have never been placed in the Index Librorum Prohibitorum.<ref><ref>
The sentence will be removed as a result under WP:BOLD. Lilfruini (talk) 02:42, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Index