Talk:Lou Henry Hoover

message: She does not have the Stanford alumni category. Would her attendance qualify her for List of Stanford University people#Notable Stanford alumni?  Ronbo76 12:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Her picture appears on that article page. I guess so. Ronbo76 12:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Would her attendance at Stanford qualify her for [[List of Stanford University people#Notable Stanford alumni]] 

message: "As First Lady, she entertained frequently and at times threw together informal dinners on the spur of the moment, placing unwelcome strain on the White House staff."
What is this assertion based on?  Catering and serving dinner to teh first family is what the staff was hired to do.  They serve dinner every night anyway,  an informal one is a strain?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.90.218.107 (talk) 19:07, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  unwelcome strain? 

message: Anybody have a RS for "Louise"?  Wasn't her given name "Lou"?  Yopienso (talk) 22:34, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That is correct, her full and legal birth name was Lou Henry, no middle name, and not "Louise."  See:  http://www.ecommcode.com/hoover/hooveronline/lhhbio/girlhood.htm 207.245.185.204 (talk) 18:42, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

text: Her son's name was Herbert Charles Hoover.  The "Charles" was in honor of her father, Charles Henry.  President Hoover's name was Herbert Clark Hoover.  The "Clark" was in honor of his father, Jesse Clark Hoover.  It is uncertain why Jesse's middle name was Clark, as there were no other Clarks in the family.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.177.12 (talk) 20:59, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Louise?

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'm really curious about the nature of the Chinese language ability of the Hoovers, a claim I have heard about for a long time.
Here's my cursory understanding:
*married February 10, 1899 at the home of the bride's parents in Monterey, California (both 24 years old) 
*sailed for China
*stayed in Shanghai for a while
*lived in Tianjin
*left some time immediately after the Boxer Rebellion in June 1900 (she 26 years old, he 25/26 years old)
*sailed away from China
Sounds like maybe a little more than a year and a half of potential exposure to Chinese.
How proficient could they have been? Could they read? How were their tones? Could they write? Did their Chinese have any Chinese dialect influence? Did any Chinese people of that period give an account of the Hoovers' Chinese language ability?
I have no doubt that with a year and a half of experience with Chinese, they could probably have "conversed in Chinese to foil eavesdroppers". But in my mind, that is in no way equivalent to the statement that "Mrs. Hoover learned and became proficient in Chinese" or that "Hoover's wife learned Mandarin Chinese (she was a first-rate linguist)". It's a bold claim that is made in trivia books and second hand sources throughout the world and wikipedia deserves better than that. Apparently the Ambassadors of China to the United States at that time were Wu Chaoshu and then Yan Huiqing; surely they would have said something about the Chinese language ability of the Hoovers. I'd like to see some first hand accounts. Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:47, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed this is a claim that should be well sourced.  There is https://wais.stanford.edu/HooverInstitute/hooverinstit_herberthooverandchina112101.html quoting Timothy Walch, Director of the Hoover Presidential Library in West Branch, Iowa, I would like to add a word or two about the Hoovers in China. As Ron notes, the evidence for Mr. Hoover speaking Mandarin is slim. It is likely that he understood what was being said to him in Mandarin, but could neither read or write the language. Mrs. Hoover was a different case, however. Among her papers at the Hoover Library is her English-Mandarin dictionary. It is clear from contemporary evidence that she not only understood Chinese, but also wrote and read the language.
So it looks like Lou was moderately literate while Herbert far less so. --Erp (talk) 16:58, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

text: Thanks for your response! My feeling is like that expressed by Ronald Hilton in that source (11/21/01):
It is remarkable that the remarkable Lou Henry Hoover could learn Mandarin from scratch (?) and write a dictionary in such a short time. How come?
Updated timeline, based on the quotation of Ronald Hilton from the written correspondence of Timothy Walch:
*married February 10, 1899 at the home of the bride's parents in Monterey, California (both 24 years old) 
*sailed for China, made it there by April 1899
*stayed in Shanghai for a while
*lived in Tianjin
*Siege of the International Legations June 20 – August 14, 1900
*Imperial Decree of declaration of war against foreign powers June 21, 1900 
*left China August 1900 
*sailed away from China (both 26 years old) (never came back?)
Maybe a year and four months in China, plus maybe four months in transit; Ronald Hilton - 11/21/01:
The Hoovers lived in China just over a year.
#Among her papers at the Hoover Library is her English-Mandarin dictionary. Wow. She wrote this dictionary and she wrote it while in China; sounds like a handwritten manuscript. What type of entries are there in this dictionary? Daily life? Geology? That should be included in this article with a citation to pictures of that dictionary. If possible a picture of some of the text should be added to wikipedia: it would be cool to see her Chinese handwriting. The Herbert Hoover article links to Standard Chinese, but Mandarin (late imperial lingua franca) could also be appropriate (History of Modern Standard Chinese). Did she use some form of the Wade–Giles romanization scheme for her dictionary?
#It is clear from contemporary evidence that she not only understood Chinese, but also wrote and read the language. That's exactly the evidence I want to know about: let's see that 'contemporary evidence'. There has got to be something outside the dictionary itself that proves her ability right?  Writing a dictionary could be evidence that "she not only understood Chinese, but also wrote and read the language" and that (as we have in on wikipedia now) "Mrs. Hoover learned and became proficient in Chinese" or further that "Hoover's wife learned Mandarin Chinese (she was a first-rate linguist)". But to say "first-rate linguist", wouldn't you need an assessment from a scholar or something like that?
#There also is anecdotal evidence that Mrs. Hoover would occasionally speak to Mr. Hoover in Chinese during their White House years. Let's see documentation of that 'anecdotal evidence'. Who said what and when? Which specific persons (especially anyone who could actually speak some form of Chinese) ever said 'I was there on such and such a day when they spoke Chinese in the White House'. I imagine if they were doing that in their White House years, then they were probably were doing it between 1900 and 1929 as well as between 1933 and 1944: any evidence of that? Geographyinitiative (talk) 02:10, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I would note that Timothy Walch as a published scholar  on the Hoovers would count as a reputable source as far as Wikipedia is concerned (note wikipedia editors aren't suppose to be doing primary research).   There is a bit in "Lou Henry Hoover: A Prototype for First Ladies" By Dale C. Mayer (also an archivist) where her husband states that English speaking Chinese addressed her in Chinese but him in English (page 53). She was also taking lessons and not just acquiring by immersion. I agree she almost certainly wasn't natively fluent and some of the hyperbole should be toned down.  I'm not sure whether any serious research has been done on how much Chinese she acquired.  --Erp (talk) 02:53, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

text: If you think that these two sources (Walsh via Hilton and Mayer) are sufficient to prove some kind of claim about her Chinese language ability, then that would be okay with me. But I do think that, absent more conclusive evidence, there seems to be a degree of hyperbole in some of these statements as they stand. Thanks! Geographyinitiative (talk) 03:28, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

text: Another thing I was just thinking: don't you think she or President Hoover would have made some kind of statement about their Chinese language ability at some point? Was it an inside secret? Why do we have to walk this circuitous route of proof via anecdotal evidence: what about  quotations from them or their sons in a news piece or a documentary? Just some thoughts.Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:20, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Would that necessarily be more reliable?  People quite frequently understate or overstate their language abilities.  Also presidential candidates tended to more reticent back then (consider how many knew about FDR's disability). Note we do have Herbert Hoover's  letter on his wife's ability. --Erp (talk) 02:28, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Based on the source added on the 20th, I have made the following additions/changes: She made extensive study of both Latin, Mandarin Chinese, Spanish, Italian and French, /// Hoover studied Mandarin Chinese while living in China. Her Chinese name was 'Hoo Loo' (古鹿; Pinyin: Gǔ Lù) derived from the sound of her name in English. (You can see it on the White House stationery picture in the source). That's so awesome that she had a Chinese name! I think we should get that photo or some other photo of her Chinese handwriting onto this page.  She seems to have been noted for her linguistic studies; might as well show off something of it on here. My edit on Baidu Baike adding the info about her name passed inspection: (夫人：罗·亨利(1875-1944)，于1899年2月10日结婚 （中文姓名：古鹿[2]  ）First Lady Biography: Lou Hoover  ．National First Ladies' Library[引用日期2018-01-22]) Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:44, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chinese language ability