Talk:The Raft of the Medusa

message: I like the new structure, though I've made some alerations:
:I varied the image alignment, I think having all the images to the right make the article look flat, and it looses much of its energy. 
:I forced the sizes of a few pics as they were very large thumbs and took up dispropornate space.
:I really, really think background/context should come before description. Otherwise, what are we supposed to be looking at as we read about the rendered figures? An imagined scene for all the reader knows. Thats my 2c anyway. Ceoil (talk) 21:13, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree on that point. I think it unfortunate we no longer have a Gros picture; either the Eylau or Jaffa ones are really much close than the Prudhom we have now, and also similar in scale, which is very relevant. Johnbod (talk) 21:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I readded the Gros detail..he was an important source...Modernist (talk) 22:05, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd run out of steam by then. Ahh. Good work nonethe less and thanks. Ceoil (talk) 15:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: My position on galleries is well known...I go there to see art..:) If a small gallery can be added, (I think they are efficient ways to see the work)...I have no objection...but hopefully the text will support any inclusions with sources and refs..Modernist (talk) 04:07, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

text: All of the sketches in that commons category with a somewhat bluish tint are from ARTstor. Just to clarify.. Lithoderm 06:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Restructure

message: The one Lithoderm has added from a book seems to be the same as the one from the Louvre I referred to lower down, which is #236 of the Joconde Gericault items. They have a sharper if rather less dramatic shot of it. They acquired it only in 2004, which no doubt accounts for the discrepancy. I will just amend the caption for now, but perhaps the picture should be moved down to that passage. Johnbod (talk) 21:36, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There seems to be tendancy for moving the pics to the head of the sections regardless of weather they are welcome or useful there or not. Images should be placed next to the relevant text; if recommended by the MOS guidelines or not. Ceoil (talk) 21:47, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  cannibalism sketch 

message: Do we need two Delacroix's? I think the text to images ratio is too low at this stage and would like to trim. We are spoiled for choice. Thoughs? Ceoil (talk) 21:57, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we are ok...I like the two, and I think we are at the right number now..Modernist (talk) 22:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Number of images

message: "Reviews favoured the painting, which also stimulated plays, poems, performances and a children's book."--- That seems like a sentence in need of a citation. A children's book would be the farthest thing from my mind when considering this painting. (Unless it were the Struwwelpeter....) Lithoderm 04:39, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh? Cite no. 48 immediately follows the sentence. Check it out. Ty 05:25, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

text: In a newspaper of 1842 we even find a serialized version for children, "Tales of Shipwreck. Grandfather Felix Tells About the Wreck of the Medusa."....I'll add the ref..Modernist (talk) 05:02, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats the one I just added...Modernist (talk) 05:29, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Slight mistake.  The refs have shifted. It was already ref'd by current cite no. 49 which applies to the whole para. Ty 06:07, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the newer one is more specific, at least. Sorry about that. Lithoderm 06:14, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Children's book

message: I think this reads better: The decision was made by the captain and the 400 aboard to abandon ship and to try to make the African coast 60 miles away.Modernist (talk) 22:39, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Good work copyediting there. Ceoil (talk) 13:27, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: Version 1. Per . Are they in the right place etc? Yellow spot is the ship - otherwise no one will know where it is. Ty 07:50, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Version 2 on the left. Two equilateral triangles of the same size + new improved bigger yellow spot! Ty 13:38, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer version 2, it's almost self explanatory..good job..Modernist (talk) 13:44, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer first version, in which the mast is used to reinforce one side of the left triangle --I don't think the triangles need to cover the entire areas indicated, nor be the same size and shape. Question: are colored triangles preferable to same shapes indicated with dotted lines? JNW (talk) 14:49, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: They are very much preferable if you don't know how to do dotted lines in photoshop! Ty 14:53, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Some copy editing might be necessary. One can gather from the text that the two pyramids are explained -- "One follows the mast and its rigging and leads the viewer's eye towards an approaching wave that threatens to engulf the raft, while the second, composed of reaching figures, leads to the distant silhouette of the Argus, the ship that eventually rescued the survivors." -- but maybe this can be clarified. The last version is an improvement, methinks. I don't know how to photoshop, period, so all efforts are appreciated! JNW (talk) 15:00, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ceoil wrote the text, we probably need clarification from him as to what he meant exactly. I still like the second version which demonstrates the double pyramid composition immediately. Although from the text there seems to be overlap like the last version...Modernist (talk) 15:22, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: JWN, if you could copy edit thoes sentences that would be great. I dont have a very precise eye, and struggled with the para. For my monie, version 2 looks best. Ceoil (talk) 01:08, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ceoil, I'm hesitant to go into that passage, because some of it's cited, some not, so I'm unsure what to mess with, or if some of what's already there is OR. By the way, I haven't helped much on this article for a while--between you, Modernist, Tyrenius, Johnbod, Lithoderm, etc, it's in great hands. JNW (talk) 05:07, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

text: The problem may be that a 2d shape (triangle) is used to illustrate a 3d shape (pyramid) which makes it unclear (as you naturally want some symmetry in the shapes which you get here in three dimensions but not in two). The edges of the first pyramid are the rigging and the mast and the imaginary lines between them on the deck, and the second pyramid is composed of the bodies topped by the waving man, so version 4 is correct. It might be clearer if you put the hidden edges in as dotted lines or shaded the faces if such advanced photoshoppery is within anybody's abilities. Yomanganitalk 16:16, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Version 4 also includes reaching figures in the lower right corner and so I think is too too wide. See the quoted text here. However overall this will be a great addition once it is agreed on. Ceoil (talk) 01:12, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the diagonal (how you can have a "horizontal diagonal" I don't know) leading from the dead to the living is a separate aspect to the pyramids. Version 2 is very 2-dimensional: the red triangle there is very much a triangle rather than a indication of a pyramid. Version 4 might benefit from having the blue triangle brought to the front, as the second pyramidal structure is the stronger. Yomanganitalk 02:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

text: @:how you can have a "horizontal diagonal" I don't know. Now that you mention it, hmm. Should we loose the quote, although it seemed so plausable at the time. Ceoil (talk) 02:26, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As it is a quote, I'd let it stand. The idea is sound even if the description isn't. Yomanganitalk 10:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Too much geometry. Getting dizzy. JNW (talk) 05:07, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the turps that does it, JNW! I think version 6 is what the text means, and the pyramid structure can be seen. Ty 05:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Now that you mention it: after the AFD imbroglio I started today, I ran off and painted...lots of medium, little ventilation... JNW (talk) 05:32, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

text: 6 Rocks..Modernist (talk) 05:13, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What Modernist said (JNW's turps-induced criticism notwithstanding). Yomanganitalk 10:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think 6 is best, though to be ultra-picky I'd start the right one higher (as in 2) & extend both sides a bit to take in the woman's head to the left, & the bumps of backs to the right.  Or leave it! Johnbod (talk) 15:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Woman? Yomanganitalk 16:16, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry - the guy in drag (or Arab fancy-dress) :) Johnbod (talk) 16:19, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Now now, calm down; there are no women on the internet, Yomangani, don't get all excited. I've moved 6 onto the main page anyhow. Great work with this, Ty and all. Ceoil (talk) 21:25, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent! JNW (talk) 21:28, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Triangle diagram

message: Not having a book on the actual event to hand I'm a bit confused about the numbers and have a couple of questions. The article says there were 15 survivors but that Géricault depicts 20 figures: 5 more than in reality including 2 extra corpses. 
#Only 19 figures are immediately obvious. The vague smudge on the sail is supposed to be one? Or is the 20th figure supposed to be sat next to the man with his head in hands? (as perhaps claimed by in Hagen and Hagen - I don't see that reference there: "Two of the raft's ten survivors are seen in shadow at the foot of the mast;", could it be made clearer?). The deterioration of the picture probably makes this less clear than when first exhibited, but it is hard to track down number 20. One of the preparatory sketches shows a vaguely head-shaped object at the bottom of the mast but that's the closest I can come to number 20.
#Which are the two "extra" corpses? 5 of the figures look fairly kaput, but if only the 2 hideously white ones are dead then this is "two corpses" rather than "two extra corpses" or "two more corpses". The article says "A number of bodies litter the foreground, waiting to be swept away by the surrounding waves" though, so we are implying that those are all dead which makes the numbers funny again. Basically, I'm asking how many bodies were recorded on the raft at the time of rescue and how many of the bodies in the picture are corpses.  Yomanganitalk 14:19, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not a big fan of regurgitating sources without question, especially when we contradict them in the article (We also have Muther claiming that most of the men are naked when they are mostly semi-clothed). Perhaps we could reword the bit about the corpses to lose the numbers and swap the detail of "two dying figures"-one of those has surely got to be one of Christian's corpses and we refer to him as dead later-for the one further up on this page showing the Argus (which is harder for the casual viewer to make out). As for the twenty figures, can anybody see number twenty or find another source that says there are twenty? I'd hate to see a miscount immortalised on the page. Yomanganitalk 10:33, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Numbers could be clearer 

message: No disrespect to George Cooke, but despite his having made a copy of the Raft, is there consensus that he belongs in the opening alongside Manet, Turner, etc.? JNW (talk) 22:41, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, I was only dimly aware of the long running JNW vs George Cook dispute; very interesting ;) No your right, will remove from lead. Ceoil (talk) 22:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, I'll come clean: He stole a commission from me, then he stole my woman. And my horse. If ever I find the man... JNW (talk) 22:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, I left him in there against my better judgment..but I didn't know he stole your horse and your woman, should've put him on a raft! Modernist (talk) 22:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. And I really miss the horse. Sniff. JNW (talk) 22:58, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: How effective are internet based possies? I have seven reasonalby ruthless socks (dont tell anybody), and a bunch of meat puppets just around the corner. I dont see much noise from Cook at the moment. Easy. Ceoil (talk) 23:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Just keep a watchful eye, ya never know...Modernist (talk) 23:20, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Cooke

message: Homage/Pastiche in Asterix. A small subtly-worded addition to the Legacy section might help fend off the addition of "In popular culture" later on. Yomanganitalk 10:44, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that will be enough. It's also featured on album covers and elsewhere. Ty 11:00, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "Re-enacted with supermodels". But Ceoil told me there are no women on the internet. Yomanganitalk 14:14, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

text: You can also check out "The Raft of George W. Bush". (Not that I would want to see that in the article, mind you). Lithoderm 05:55, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pop 

message: According to this  there were six, if another ref says five then please change it. I'm gonna return to six otherwise...Modernist (talk) 12:47, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Give me a few minutes, just trying to work out whether it is five or six. Savigny is all over the place with them. Yomanganitalk 12:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, if its five then change the lead too...Modernist (talk) 12:54, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it was six. Counted them myself and found a little sketch, sorry about that. Yomanganitalk 13:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Five or Six

message: There does seem to have been a carpenter on the raft:
"He also made numerous studies of the survivors such as the ship's carpenter, Lauillette, and Sauvigny and Correard" -- Jonathan Miles, The Wreck of the Medusa, first paperback edition, Grove/Atlantic, Inc., P. 176, , . See Amazon search inside.
"The Raft is a tableau vivant: a living picture whose figures, drawn from contemporary events, re-enact the tragedy of the Medusa's castaways.  Like Savigny, Correard, the carpenter Lavillette, and the sailor Jean Charles, they are waiting for the Argus ... 
Gericault made the fate of common men -- a surgeon, an engineer, a carpenter, a sailor -- the theme of his immense tableau." 
"In his studio he had Corréard, Savigny and the raft's carpenter help him build a scale model of the vessel"
In fact there seem to have been at least two carpenters on the raft, but one, Dominque, "sided with the mutineers", which I think was a fatal mistake.
Ty 15:34, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Savigny says Lavillette was a "workman" (as was Dominque) and "ex-serjeant of the artillery". That's not to say that he wasn't a carpenter (workman on a wooden ship is likely to be chiefly a carpenter), but assigning him the role of "raft's carpenter" sounds a little like an official role, as if he was assigned to the raft as a carpenter in case repairs were necessary, which is what I was trying to avoid. I've reworded to use his name instead. What do you think? Yomanganitalk 16:00, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Per NPOV it would be incorrect not to follow the source. There's nothing to conflict with that, as far as I know. A carpenter is a workman. Miles says on p. 112 and p. 142 that Lavillette is "the workshop foreman".  IIRC the carpenter(s) built the raft, so Lavillette would be the raft's carpenter, i.e. he constructed it. Ty 16:33, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a bit lost as to what you mean by "Per NPOV it would be incorrect not to follow the source". Our former formulations left out his name, so didn't follow the sources exactly. I've merely replaced the term "raft's carpenter" with the more generic "carpenter" and/or his name, so only deviating from Christiansen and actually following the other sources more closely. Yomanganitalk 16:54, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I just meant that if the source called him "the raft's carpenter" then so should we. But I'm not familiar with the other material, so I defer to any decision which takes wider sources into account. I didn't know what his name was before! Ty 11:43, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Carpenters

message: Just in! Genuine portrait of the artist himself in 1816 now available at :File:Théodore Géricault by Alexandre Colin 1816.jpg.  Ty 15:53, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Portrait

message: I added the Homer...and I like it there, I think it's well placed..Modernist (talk) 23:48, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good. Ceoil (talk) 02:29, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Homer

message: According to what I've read he hadn't shown anything in the salon for several years and this painting was a considerably ambitious departure from anything he had done previously and this is a major work for a 27 year old, or for anyone, although he had submitted to the salon years before...Modernist (talk) 12:49, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Major

message: "...Géricault was influenced by the human pathos as expressed in such earlier works as Francisco Goya's The Third of May 1808..." Géricault could not have seen the painting.--Wetman (talk) 06:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's certainly unlikely he'd seen it. That sentence and the corresponding mention further down are a bit weaselly as they suggest he was influenced by those works while only stating that he was influenced by pathos. Perhaps we could reword them to break that implication. Yomanganitalk 08:29, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Bad phrasing & some conjecture I guess. Well spotted, gone now. Ceoil (talk) 23:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Goya 

message: "In June 1816, the French frigate Méduse embarked..."
Passengers and crew embark (meaning to go on board); ships themselves simply leave, sail or depart.PiCo (talk) 03:06, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You're quite right- sorry, I think that was my copy edit. I have amended it. Petropoxy (Lithoderm Proxy) (talk) 07:38, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The meaning of the verb "to embark" 

message: This is a wonderful article -- but I am greatly surprised to find no reference to Bullock's exhibition of this painting in Dublin, just after its run at the Egyptian Hall in London -- this is mentioned in all the studies of the painting, and is especially significant since in Dublin it competed with the Marshalls' Panorama of the same subject.  Clevelander96 (talk) 03:13, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now added a reference to this in what I think is the appropriate spot. Clevelander96 (talk) 17:54, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Thanks Clevelander. I hope there are no hard feelings about the Pogues from above...Ironically, all here seem to be fairly serious Pogue fans! Strange or wha' Ceoil (talk) 14:20, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconding Ceoil's sentiments re: the Pogues--I'm a sucker for 'Fairytale of NY'--and for the addition of the Dublin exhibition. JNW (talk) 16:23, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed on both points! Johnbod (talk) 17:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exhibition in Dublin 

message: Was one of the colors that Gericault used really peach black, not pitch-black? If it's correct, then please excuse my ignorance. — Kpalion(talk) 14:55, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Peach Black is correct: ...Modernist (talk) 15:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting; I would have never associated peaches with black. I managed to find a little information about it on Google... It appears to be made from (burned?) peach stones and it's "a mild black pigment with a tendency to green". Too bad we don't have an article about this color. — Kpalion(talk) 16:58, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: We do now! Barely a stub now; feel free to add more. In fact, please do! Matt Deres (talk) 17:32, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Great, I added a link tothe page.... Ceoil (talk) 17:41, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! Matt Deres (talk) 17:54, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peach black 

message: Notable or no?
In the early 90's, sculptor John Connell, in his Raft Project,   a collaborative project with painter Eugene Newmann, recreated The Raft of the Medusa by making life-sized sculptures out of wood, paper and tar and placing them on a large wooden raft. ARTnews, Summer 1993.
I don't think this is notable partially because it no longer exists, as far as I know; however other opinions are welcome...Modernist (talk) 15:32, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Given the statement's relative brevity, I think it is a valuable addition.  Anyone can take a couple of seconds to click on John Connell, and while this work itself may not be extant (I'll take your word for it), quickly see what kind of artist, doing what kind of a work, has so explicitly paid artistic homage to the work.  The criterion should not be the notability of Connell as compared to Winslow Homer et al., but the fact that he's a notable author who has done something with the Raft in our time that's so distinctly different from the rest of the "legacy" discussed here.  In short, if the single sentence is restored, readers' impression of the work's ongoing life will be healthily broadened.  (P.S. "rv imo nn" seems a bit harshly laconic to me: "seems to me" was my polite way of saying "this is clearly notable and importance," and the notability derives from the fact that John Connell has an article.) Wareh (talk) 16:52, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have an open mind, lets get some other opinions on the inclusion...Modernist (talk) 17:22, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough Wareh, you argument for inclusion is good enough. If Modernist is ok with it I'm ok. Bty, do you have any photoes of the work? Ceoil 17:38, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks - open minds are refreshing around here.  Great work on the featured articles, by the way.  Wareh (talk) 20:29, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

text: Earlier I added this photo:...Modernist (talk) 17:55, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ta. Might be a streach for FU. Ceoil 18:12, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Raft project

message: The parody (if that's the right word) in Asterix is certainly notable. For example, this article about the painting discusses the Asterix use. StAnselm (talk) 21:31, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Notability is a concept that applies to article subjects, not aspects within articles. Not everything that can be referenced belongs in an article. Loads of stuff like this has been cleared out already. You're welcome to start "RotM in popular culture" from the history. We don't even have Julian Barnes's extended piece. Johnbod (talk) 21:35, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Call it "significant" then. The thing is, this is something that is discussed in secondary literature on the painting. If Andrew Graham-Dixon sees fit to talk about Asterix when he writes about the painting, why shouldn't this article include it? StAnselm (talk) 21:39, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As AGD says just above, there are thousands of cartoon parodies. We don't include every other work mentioned by every critic, here or anywhere.  Most criticism manages to get by without mentioning Asterix, or the album covers etc etc. You are up to 3 reverts now so be careful. Johnbod (talk) 21:44, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: We do not add every parody of famous works of art, start another article if you have to: Parodies of famous artworks...Modernist (talk) 21:47, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asterix 

message: Someone has changed the infobox pic from one of 354 KB to one of 9.54 MB, which is certainly better, but may be too big for those with mobile/slow connections. Should we perhaps leave as is, but also link to a "lower res image", or change back, with a link to "higher res image"? Johnbod (talk) 17:41, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a great reproduction but at 9.54 MB impracticable, and would be in favour of a higher res link. Ceoil (talk) 21:53, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: How big should we go for the low res, or the high res? There's one at 4.19 MB that's pretty good. Johnbod (talk) 00:32, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox pic query 

message: The French name of this work is simply not used in English. Kindly do not bold it as though it were. — LlywelynII 09:30, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: We are told that "his was a routine naval appointment made within the Ministry of the Navy and far outside the concerns of the monarch" but also that he "had been granted his commission as a result of an act of political preferment." 
So was it a political appointment by somebody other than the King? It's jarring to see these two statements made in an unconnected manner.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.149.59 (talk) 09:24, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why was Viscount Hugues Duroy de Chaumereys Appointed? 

message: I mean a story Hubert Wellington goes to quote in the Phaidon edition of Delacroix' Journal (p. XI in 1980 reprint and p. XII in 1995 reprint).
Since it is quite popular story related to the article's subject (and Delacroix as well), my question is like, "Is there any thing among Delacroix' body of writing that Wellington quotes from?" Gleb95 (talk) 11:27, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I found it on my own. From Russia with love, Gleb95 (talk) 13:28, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the source of a well-known story related to ''The Raft'' and Delacroix