Talk:Edward and Elaine Brown

message: Let's not have this devolve into an edit war. Fame is relative, I understand, but the tone of this page is becoming horribly slanted. I understand it's a contentious issue with some people, but that shouldn't spill over into Wikipedia. Supporters and detractors should KEEP IT NEUTRAL. Sidatio 20:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Alleged Fame of Randy Weaver, POV of Article

message: What's the matter with putting in a map link to where this is happening? I think this line is a  useful + interesting addition: Ed Brown's Plainfield residence (401 Center of Town Road Plainfield, NH 03781) is located at 43°33'13"N 72°18'43"W.
Also, the Browns' home is located at .
Agreed -- I have re-added the location information deleted by TexasDawg.  The Brown's have no privacy issues with this -- they've issued a general invitation for supporters.  Also the information provided permits viewing satellite imagery via Google Earth. Soldato 02:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: location of standoff

message: The following verbiage was inserted by an anonymous user, and is being moved to here:
::also forgot to add how the judge was saying how state taxes do not have to abid by the federal taxes...when they do
I'm not sure what the user was trying to say; it sounds like a discussion comment that belongs here on the talk page. Yours, Famspear 19:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Verbiage moved from article

message: Nice job, Famspear, thanks for your help.
BlueKnight 16:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear BlueKnight: Thanks, and thank you for locating that Concord Monitor article and adding the material to this article. Yours, Famspear 17:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I have added a caution on the anonymous user's talk page about deleting sections of text without providing an explanation in the edit summary. Yours, Famspear 14:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Religious conversion

message: The article mentions that the Browns tried to avoid criminal conviction by offering to pay the back taxes. In the case of U.S. Federal income taxes, I think this would only rarely work. Unfortunately, if you get to the point where you are being prosecuted for Federal tax crimes, you are already in too deep. From the standpoint of the government, you aren't offering them anything they're not already legally entitled to receive, or that they believe they're entitled to receive. The government wants you to go to jail AND pay the taxes, and by law they can legally collect taxes by seizing your assets without even going to court anyway (as long as they correctly jump through certain administrative legal "hoops" prior to the forced collection action).
I therefore made a minor edit to the reference in the article to the Browns' offer about paying the tax. There was probably no intention in the article to give this impression, but you do not want to give the impression in Wikipedia that the U.S. Federal government is in the habit of settling a whole lot of criminal tax cases by accepting offers to pay the tax. A refusal by the government to accept the offer in the Ed and Elaine Brown case would be pretty much par for the course, especially considering the large amount of income involved. Yours, Famspear 17:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Offering to pay U.S. Federal taxes to avoid going to jail: good luck

message: What's the significance of the Free State Project article link at the bottom of the page? Sure, this is in NH and these people don't like paying taxes, but the article never mentions them as members or people connected with it. I'm going to remove the link. If there is indeed a substantial link between the two it should be stated in the article, not inferred by the related articles section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.233.17.88 (talk • contribs)  (on 24 April 2007).
* Please don't remove the link.  While they are separate, there is a significant overlap between the Free Stater community and Ed Brown supporters.  The "See also" context doesn't imply a direct relationship, but rather that it's a related concept where the reader of one article may be interested in the other.  -AlexLibman 06:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Free State Project

message: The Associated Press story on May 10 got it partly right and partly wrong. The judge in the case did not "reverse" himself, and the judge did not file the appeal. The order was back in April, a few days after the judgment of conviction. What the court said -- if we can convert it from legalese to plain English is, in effect, something like this: "Look, defendants, you filed your appeal way back in January, before there was anything to appeal. Therefore, the law treats your notice of appeal as though you filed it on the date of the judgment (the date on which you finally had something to appeal). That means you filed your appeal on a timely basis (although you filed it too early, at least you didn't file it too late). Now, you have 30 days from April 24 to either pay the filing fee for the appeal (since I, the judge, refunded your filing fee when you filed too early) or, if you're too poor now, file papers showing that you're too poor to pay the fee."
Anyway, thanks to TexasDawg for bringing us this new development. Famspear 03:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, now I'm looking at the April 26th court order again, and it does say 30 days from the date of "this order" (not 30 days from the date of the judgment of conviction on April 24th). Hmmm. I'm just going to delete the reference in the article. It's 30 days from either April 24 or April 26, anyway. Famspear 03:54, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible appeal

message: www.prisonplanet.com/] Alex Jones prison planet, On the left click listen live his radio show will play you will get information about the current events.216.26.216.127 21:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  go to this site for updates 

message: Hi, please excuse me this is my first time using wikipedia.  about the above paragraph.  I don't know where Ed Brown or his wife supposedly said they had abandoned man's law for that of the Bible, but I have a hard time believing it.  Perhaps something was taken out of context.  When Mr. Brown was interviewed on the Alex Jones show he stated that he refused to pay the income tax because there is no law stating that the income tax must be paid and that he was following the laws set forth in the US Constitution.  The income tax is considered by Ed Brown unlawful as it is perpetrated by a criminal organization (IRS, Federal Reserve) in order to pay off the debt the American government owes to the private Federal Reserve banking system. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.122.34.70 (talk • contribs)  on 13 June 2007
::The material already contains a footnote with a link to the May 19, 2007 article by Kristen Senz of the New Hampshire Union Leader. The verbiage in the article, which appears to be largely a paraphrase rather than a direct quote, is:
::::The Browns, for whom a judge filed a notice of appeal with the 1st Circuit Court of Appeals in Boston, said they have abandoned "man's law" and now follow only the rules and laws put forth in the Bible.
::That's the report. Wikipedia cannot take a position on whether the reporter accurately paraphrased what the Browns said. As it stands, the material appears to conform to the Wikipedia rules of Verifiability (not truth), Neutral Point of View, and No Original Research. If someone finds a reliable source where the Browns said "no, that's not what we said, the Union Leader got it wrong in the May 19 article" etc., then that should be added to the article as well. Yours, Famspear 21:35, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Questions on Ed Brown statements

message: Should the geographic coordinates of the Browns' home be included in the sub-section about their residence? -- TexasDawg 13:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have a personal opinion pro or con. What would be the purpose of putting geographic coordinates of someone's house in an encyclopedia article? Famspear 14:44, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *No idea.  I think they are unnecessary and should be removed. -- TexasDawg 16:35, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Coordinates of Browns' Home

message: I was getting a bit tired of the slanted point-of-view primarily in the external links.
All that are listed are pro-Brown and are links to various anti-government sites.
I have added a link to an IRS pdf file so that those so inclined can read the code explanations of the IRS and the various court precedents.  BlueKnight 15:40, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: Close to the beginning of the article, I have added the information on Brown's involvement in the militia movement from over ten years ago, to add some balance to the article and put things in perspective (i.e., his problems with the government did not arise just last year). Yours, Famspear 04:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Brown and the early/mid 1990s militia movement

message: I saw Ed Brown make some statements in his televised interviews over the past week to the effect that the "Freemasons" are behind the plots or conspiracies he believes exist. Now the New Hampshire paper has picked up on that as well, so I've added that report to the article, with a link to the newspaper's web site. Yours, Famspear 18:49, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Brown and the Freemasons

message: Restored the claim that Randy Weaver was famous, removing the merely "involved" statement.  When one has a breakfast of ham and eggs, a claim can be made that the chicken was certainly involved, but the pig was certainly more than just involved :-)  Claiming that Randy Weaver was only involved in a deadly shooting is attempting to sugarcoat the subsequent legal settlement he received for having been shot, and for having had family members (son and wife) murdered.  He was more than just "involved" in a deadly shooting. Yaf 20:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're allowing personal bias to cloud the article's neutrality. I restored the "involved" comment. Fame is relative, but it doesn't hinge on a relatively obscure standoff between US Marshals. There are worse altercations that happen regulary. Please preserve the article's neutrality - or what's left of it. Sidatio 20:39, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Relatively obscure"? I remember the Ruby Ridge incident being on the cover of Newsweek, Time, and US News & World Report when it happened-- the USA's three biggest newsmagazines at the time. It's a pretty notable incident that got a lot of press and even led to Congressional hearings, and it's a rarity that fatalities result from standoffs with FBI snipers in this country, not something that happens regularly. Please assume good faith on the part of other editors, without assuming motivations for their edits.--Gloriamarie 06:03, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Involved vs. famous

message: Under the header "The Browns' residence", and again in the post-trial timeline, Randy Weaver's involvement in the June 18th press conference is noted. It seems redundant to note it twice, so I removed the smaller notation under "The Browns' residence". Sidatio 12:46, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Weaver's Role at Press Conference Noted Twice

message: The two most recent paragraphs added by IP 69.182.192.170 to the Beliefs section don't fit for a few reasons:
* They're not exactly stating "beliefs" about taxes (or anything, for that matter)
* The refs used aren't from a reputable source.
Unless there's a good argument for restoring them, I recommend removing them.
The external links added don't really fit, either - they're about tax arguments and should be on the tax protester arguments page. Since the one about their trial records directly pertains to Ed and Elaine, it should stay. Since it's only a select cross-section of their filings, though, the title should reflect that. By this reasoning, several of the external links should be cleaned up. If anyone can think of a good argument for restoring them, post it. 
I understand there are a few people out there who are using this as a cause celebre for their issues with the income tax, but the POV on this page is again getting way out of hand. Sidatio 18:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I have reverted this material. Much of the material that had been added was blatant POV, tax protester rhetoric. Famspear 19:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, I see that IP70.159.43.66 and I were making edits to delete the POV commentary at around the same time. Hopefully, together we have made the right corrections. Famspear 19:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

text:  I think we should keep the link to the selected filings, even if the source is somewhat dubious. It'd be nice if we had copies of the government's filings as well, but what can you do? Also, in the edit I had done, I cleaned up some POV issues in the existing external links, and moved a paragraph about the Browns trying to dismiss the case themselves from the Beliefs section to the Trial section, since it seemed more relevant there. I have taken the liberty of restoring that version; if anyone sees anything that needs to be added, subtracted, or moved, go for it. Sidatio 19:26, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

text:  Yeah, it's VERY selective, and the source isn't desirable at all, but not everyone has access to PACER (which, last I checked, was password protected. 
Agreed, Famspear - we can only hold down the NPOV here. Also, I can't take credit for the bulk of this work - I just shifted some stuff around. You and the other regular editors of this section have done a great job holding this article in check. You deserve a barnstar for it, once I figure out how the hell to give them! Sidatio 19:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Dear IP70.159.43.66: Thanks. You might want to consider setting up your own account, with your own username and password. I'm not a computer "tekkie," but I think it's actually safer than just posting as an IP address (assuming that you don't use your real name as your username). Yours, Famspear 19:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent additions to Beliefs section slant POV 

message: I have added some information about the latest incident, in which a 17 year old girl was allegedly injured, and her allegedly vehicle totaled, by someone driving Elaine Brown's vehicle -- apparently to go buy food. This illustrates an example of how the Browns are impacting people. Famspear 14:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Impacting people?  Or, just an everyday car wreck.  The wreck is notable because it involved their car, but the Browns themselves did not "impact" anyone. -- TexasDawg 13:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear TexasDawg: Yeah, I was using the term "impact" in the connotative sense, as in "My father had a big impact on my life" or "A good education can have a big impact on future earnings." Actually, I thought it was a clever use of double entendre! And I agree, I think it's notable here because of the possible ramifications with respect to the delicate "stand off" situation with the Browns and the law enforcement people. Famspear 16:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Brown SUV story

message: The article is about both Edward Brown and Elaine Brown, and indeed the whole affair began with Mrs. Brown's conviction.  On top of that, it is less a biography of the Browns than it is an article on their tax protest, and the events leading up to and about the current standoff.  As such, perhaps a rename is in order, especially following the arrests of other individuals who have aided the Browns.  At the very least Edward and Elaine Brown, or preferably something to reflect the overall nature of the ongoing event, like Plainfield, New Hampshire tax standoff.  Thoughts?  --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 23:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear editor Jeffrey O. Gustafson: I don't have a strong preference for either keeping the article name "as is" or moving it, but your suggestion for "Edward and Elaine Brown" seems appropriate. I think that would work better than "Plainfield, New Hampshire tax standoff." Using "Edward and Elaine Brown" would work, as I assume (and hope) that this event ends peacefully with no one hurt, and that the article can continue to develop once the Browns are in prison. And I agree that "Edward and Elaine Brown" might be more descriptive than just "Edward Lewis Brown." I'm not pushing for a move, but I wouldn't object to "Edward and Elaine Brown." Any thoughts anyone? Famspear 01:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't object to Edward and Elaine Brown, either.  Elaine Brown should (disambiguate) to the article, wherever it is. — Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 17:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks to editors Jeffrey O. Gustafson and Gloriamarie for good work on converting this article! Yours, Famspear 16:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move suggestion 

message: I'm interested in whether anyone knows if the Browns believed the 9/11 terrorist attacks, in which Al Qaeda terrorists flew perfectly ordinary jetliners into the World Trade Center towers, were the result of some other plot? Nevard (talk) 04:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  9/11 untruth? 

message: A user at IP74.133.92.116 tried to add material from a weblog or web site for Raymond Karczewski -- hardly a reliable source for purposes of Wikipedia. I reverted. Famspear (talk) 15:22, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karczewski material 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified