Talk:DéFI

message: Hi, under the terms of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (political parties), can we move the article back to "Défi" please? —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:44, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Based on a reading of their website, I think the party's name is actually DéFI and that it isn't an acronym for a "real name". "Démocrate Federaliste Indépendant" is not a name as much as a series of words associated with the DéFI brand. I will remove it from the infobox. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:52, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagree. I don't see why the party's acronym, not the real name, should be the article's title. --Checco (talk) 21:38, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

text: I moved the article to "Democratic Federalist Independent". --Checco (talk) 21:40, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, and I support the article move. The article title should be the party's name, not the acronym/abbreviation.--Autospark (talk) 23:47, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: , are the terms of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (political parties) not clear? Whatever the title, it should be in French as the only language in which the party operates. Personally I think that WP:NCA applies here too - a glance at the website proves, to me at least, that "the subject is known primarily by its abbreviation"... —Brigade Piron (talk) 22:06, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

text: I support English names (this is en.Wiki!), but "Démocrate Fédéraliste Indépendant" is still better than "DèFI". --Checco (talk) 22:00, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: With all respect, it's not up to any of us (a variation of WP:IDONTLIKEIT): we just follow the guidelines and use common sense to interpret them... Here, I think, it is pretty clear unless you can present more evidence to the contrary? —Brigade Piron (talk) 22:35, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh yes, there is also WP:Use English and I am for applying it extensively. --Checco (talk) 08:27, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: So am I: "It can happen that an otherwise notable topic has not yet received much attention in the English-speaking world, so that there are too few English sources to constitute an established usage...if this happens, follow the conventions of the language in which this entity is most often talked about." —Brigade Piron (talk) 08:43, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, my preferred article's name is "Democratic Federalist Independent", I can live with "Démocrate Fédéraliste Indépendant" and I strongly oppose "DèFI". As you can see, I am quite open toward a compromise. --Checco (talk) 08:58, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

text: I too support English names. I disagree that we should only use French. Regardless of what language the party operates in, "use English" means we should use the name that English-speaking journalists and political scientists use to identify this party. But given that the name change has only just happened in French and we have no sources as yet to give a common English name we should be waiting to see what emerges, not trying to create an English name for ourselves (particularly one that only approximates to what the French name is said to stand for). This story (from Le Soir) states: "le nom choisi est « défi » (sans « s »), signifiant Démocrates fédéralistes et indépendants" — the name chosen is "défi" (without an "s"), signifying Federalist and Independent Democrats. This story (from La Libre Belgique) says the new name is "Défi", as does this one (from RTBF, the national broadcasting corporation). Some outlets use DéFI or DEFI. There seems not to be consensus even in French as to the capitalization of the name, and I cannot at present find any English sources for a name other than "FDF". At the same time I do not understand why there should be a strong objection to using the name the party has chosen for itself, which by most accounts is "Défi" (in some form — I would incline to give the agreement of the national broadcaster and La Libre Belgique on that form the most weight).  --Andreas Philopater (talk) 17:40, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: So why also the fr.Wikipedia's article is named Démocrate Fédéraliste Indépendant rather than DéFI? (Please note that, regardless what some news sources say, the party's symbol clearly reads DéFI and Démocrate Fédéraliste Indépendant as well, thus Défi, DEFI, etc. are clearly wrong). My preferred article's name is still "Democratic Federalist Independent", but I can live with "Démocrate Fédéraliste Indépendant". This said, it would be more important (and I'm sure both Andreas and Autospark agree with me on this) to find a consensus on moving all the articles on Belgian parties to English names (to have Mouvement Réformateur, Parti Socialiste (Belgium), Centre démocrate humaniste, Christen-Democratisch en Vlaams, Open Vlaamse Liberalen en Democraten, Socialistische Partij Anders, etc. and New Flemish Alliance is just nonsense). --Checco (talk) 13:09, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree on both counts, we need to use a full party name rather than an acronym for the article title, whether Democratic Federalist Independent (my preferred choice) or Démocrate Fédéraliste Indépendant. Also, we should be using English language titles for Belgian political party articles on en.wiki, all of them have accepted translations found in scholarly texts, and none of them have 'overlapping' names in their respective native languages.--Autospark (talk) 13:47, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

text: It makes no difference what the French Wikipedia article is called. That is not a reliable source. All the reputable media I linked to (and a few more I didn't) say "the party's new name is Défi", not "the acronym of the party's new name is Défi". Danny is short for Daniel, but that won't stop it being somebody's common name, and common name is what we use. That the party should put a slogan on their website is neither here nor there. The British Conservative Party puts "Together, we can Secure a Brighter Future" on their website in the same position. That doesn't make it their name. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 23:34, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: There seems to be a certain confusion about what "use English" actually means. It means use the name that reliable sources written in English use, and certainly not "if there's no translation, invent one". If English sources say "Mouvement Réformateur", then we use that, we don't translate it. If we have no English sources (and so far only Reddit seems to have reported on this in English), we stick with the name, not with our approximation of it. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 23:41, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

text: ? —Brigade Piron (talk) 09:01, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I say move it to Defi. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 09:58, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody has objected in the past 6 months. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 14:48, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Done :) —Brigade Piron (talk) 14:53, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I would prefer that this article had not been removed or renamed.---Autospark (talk) 22:49, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

text: I also oppose the move, on which there is thus no consensus. It should be moved back. --Checco (talk) 12:32, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

text: I moved the article back to its original name. The fact that "DéFI" is spelled that way and not "Défi" is a clear evidence that it is not the party's name, but just its acronym (see also http://defi.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Statuts-de-Defi_27-04-2016.pdf). --Checco (talk) 12:48, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

text: I made my point clear enough in November and I haven't changed my mind. So, no, we didn't have any consus on the move. Most party logos include only acronyms and most news sources use acronyms too, thus I'm not impressed by that. Obviously, I haven't anything against your boldness in moving the article (I'm often bold too): simply, there was no consensus on the move, so I moved the article back. Finally, the party uses "DéFI" not "Défi". --Checco (talk) 13:04, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid this is turning into a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. I'd remind you that I originally moved the article from Democratic Front of Francophones to "Défi" back in November - the day the party was re-named I believe. It was  who unilaterally moved my proposed title to "Independent Federalist Democrats". If we're talking about "no consensus to move", I think my original title would stand... —Brigade Piron (talk) 18:29, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no justification for the current name except a misreading of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). It really should be moved. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 09:43, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Naming an article on a party using its acronym is unreasonable, in my view. --Checco (talk) 12:04, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
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