Talk:Telekinesis/Archive 2

message: I created a new subpage and it is now Archive 1 with a link at above right. Archive 2, when needed in the future, should be a new page (same as creating an article) titled "Talk:Psychokinesis/archive2" and the link added to the template on this page's code. Some of the talk pages prior to November 22, 2006 to the beginning (15 June 2003) were also using the refactoring method of talk page management. Archive 1 therefore is not a complete record of all discussions. To view other archived talk pages follow these steps: 1. Click on the "History" tab at the top of this page. 2. Click on any date that you wish. That's all you have to do. You will be taken to Wiki's archived talk page for that date. To find the very first talk pages, click on the "Earliest" link at the bottom of the "History" page and scroll down to the links at the bottom of the page. Thank you. 5Q5 19:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For further information on archiving see Wikipedia:How_to_archive_a_talk_page. 5Q5 15:38, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Talk Page Archive

message: Italian PK-cloud claimant
There is a user named Martino 8 who has repeatedly inserted his material, including his email address into the article at various places. Even after I offered a solution and placed a formal link to his website in the External Links section, he still did his improper insertions in caps "The Portraits is taken for the PSYCHOKINESIS CREATION IN THE CLOUDS ,IN THE VARNISH on the cardboard...etc." (I assume portraits = pictures/photos, varnish = paint.) He previously did this using the IP 151.65.48.50 (see Nov 9, 2006 in article history). He has also done this inserting in the articles of James Randi and Larry King.
So I'm removing the link I gave him. Basically, his claim is not a new one: take photographs of clouds and match them with human-made pictures or artwork and call it psychokinesis. Others claim to be able to make clouds appear and disappear. I believe in PK, but I just don't see his claims as being reasonable. Here's why: Anyone who can control the movement of zillions of atoms in the molecules that make up the water vapor in a floating, constantly moving cloud of immense size from miles away surely could place a single drop of water on one side of a line on a flat tabletop and move the drop a fraction of an inch to demonstrate his PK ability.
One of the problems here is that the gentleman's primary language is Italian, not English, so while he may be able to speak English, he has clearly demonstrated he is not proficient in writing it. So sending him Wiki warnings about vandalism and styling will do no good. We may need someone who can communicate with him in Italian. Until then, the only option is to keep reverting. 5Q5 15:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism problems

message: As a suggestion, why not simply use the words themselves to come up with definitions. First, PK and TK would be slightly different. In both cases however we're talking about kinetic energy (kinesis), there should already be an article on kinetic energy. Now for the tele and psycho parts. Psychokinesis means that it is thought creating kinetic energy, telekinises means that is the displacement of kinetic energy. For example, Magnito uses his brain, mind or thoughts to create kinetic energy in the form of magnitism, this could be defined as PK because he created the K (kinetic energy) with his mind and TK because he teled (displaced) the K onto whatever object or into whatever position he needed to serve whatever his purposes. This kind of definition is more or less waterprof because if this doesn't fit certian uses of the terms, than they were simply used incorectly. ECH (not logged in) 0:55 UTC Febuary 5 2007
: I moved this to a new section (it began under "Refs etc."). If I understand you correctly, you are saying that PK would be energy created by the mind that is capable of causing movement in an object, and then TK is moving that energy to the object, which then moves or reacts. On the face of it that sounds reasonable, but I don't think we really know yet for certain if the energy actually travels through physical space. It could but then it could also be instantaneously teleported from the mind or a cosmic consciousness (whatever) to inside the atomic structure of the object, and then it moves or deforms accordingly. Atoms are over 99.99999...% empty space. A hypothetical "psychokinesis particle" or cloud of PK particles could fill that empty space and produce the effect observed. I'm not saying that's what I personally believe; it's just one hypothesis. We also have the problem of explaining spontaneous effects, which do not involve a conscious thought process. The article is heavily referenced now (by me :D) and changes like you suggest would have to be cited and probably cause a dispute. I will, however, say your idea is not something I came across during my reference researching. Interesting concept, but I'm not sure how one would be able to detect available energy as such until something moved. To me, PK as the umbrella, or mother, term works and TK is under that along with the others. 5Q5 18:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: PK/TK Definitions - new discussion

message: First, let me say that I researched, wrote, and referenced the material below, so I am not editing someone else's work. I intended it to be placed in a separate section, not in the above-the-contents Introduction. This particular article requires a Terminology section by virtue of the fact that it deals with two separate terms that are very prominent. Many other articles have Terminology sections. I did some research and here is just a sampling: Heat transfer, Natural environment, Education, Congenital disorder, Deafness, Detergent, Dog, Hospital, Satire, Illegal immigration, Washroom, World music, Textile, Trademark, etc. Many of these examples have very brief article Introductions. Some have just one sentence. So, that's why I may restore this section if moved elswhere. Also, I reduced "Grammatical forms" to a subheading and included it here (I authored that section, too). 5Q5 15:42, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restoring Terminolgy section - discussion

message: A Wiki robot visited the page (see below) and is claiming that the ISBN number for the James Randi book Flim Flam! is incorrect.
00:13, 20 December 2006 SmackBot (Talk | contribs) m (ISBN formatting/gen fixes using AWB)
As I write this, it reads in Further Reading section: Flim Flam!, James Randi, Prometheus Books, 1982, . If someone looks into this, please leave a note here. 5Q5 15:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: RESOLVED. I see the correct ISBN was placed by editor Dpbsmith on 20 December 2006. 5Q5 18:42, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wiki Bot visit 

message: I removed some of the more obscure and IMHO overelaborated  *cough*fanboyish*cough* items from the Cultural References to PK list, as it ALREADY HAS ITS OWN PAGE. I think this page only needs a couple of the most well known and culturally relevant examples. Noclevername 05:07, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I understand your reasoning, so I abbreviated the list again to the three Oscar-winning or -nominated movies. This page had little material on it for awhile (until I came along :)), so that's why it might have appeared to have been filled with too much fluff stuff. 5Q5 18:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea; I did omit the Oscar nods, though, as they had nothing to do with Psychokinesis. -- Noclevername 20:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cultural Refs, enough already

message: Because of the literal definition differences between psychokinesis ("mind-movement") and telekinesis ("distant-movement"), many researchers and fiction writers now accept that the two terms can be used to refer to different observed effects; for example, psychokinesis (the more general term) can refer to object movement, metal bending, biological healing, shape-shifting, transmutation of matter, teleportation, phasing through matter, control of photons (which are not matter), control of magnetism, etc., over a greater distance and even through a physical barrier, while telekinesis describes simply the movement of objects of any size, self levitation (including flying), and such effects as spontaneous telekinesis, in which the mind does play a consciously active role, though the subconscious may be involved.
:Weasel terms like "many researchers and fiction writers now accept" raise a red flag with me. I'd like to see sources for the material in this paragraph. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I knew I might have trouble with this new Terminolgy material I wrote, and so I (later) added the fiction writers part because of all the super-PK abilities like shape-shifting, walking through walls, etc. Those things obviously are not being claimed by real-life (sane) humans. I don't see where it says a PK page on Wiki must refer only to PK in the real world. Novelists and other fiction writers might come to Wiki to research PK for fictional characters. This article does have a Psuedoscience category tag at the bottom. If you will kindly remove that (I tried once), we can restrict the article only to the real world. Might take a while to reference the above paragraph. I don't own every Psi book or sci-fi writer's magazine article or how-to book. Have you seen all the other real world science articles on Wiki that are unsourced? :) 5Q5 19:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, update, I went to a large bookstore over the weekend and found some published book sources for the above paragraph I authored. As I get the time, I'll work on this again with a revised opening. Dealing with all the copying and pasting and filling out of referencing templates takes time. 5Q5 14:55, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced paragraph 

message: I rewrote the above "unsouced paragraph" (in green) into a new section and posted it today. It represents about two weeks of visiting libraries, book stores, pages of notes, and putting together about three feet of new source code. Please take care in disturbing the code (thanks!). I know the article has a lot of references now, but I checked the Wiki style manual and there is no limit; in fact, references are good, especially for material that might be challenged, and PK is definitely one of those types of articles. It's an excellent place to do research now. I would like to ask editors to monitor and remove abilities if people start adding all of the specific comic book superhero powers that end with a "kinesis" and such. That issue has already been addressed in the article last year (and they were removed). A debate of those "kinesis" powers can be found on the Discussion page of the List of cultural references to psychokinesis and telekinesis (an article I created). I feel that the list of abilities now is sufficiently representative of PK and TK. Sure, there could be more, maybe, if referenced. I could find no mention of pyrokinesis in any of the books I looked at, not even the comic book encyclopedias. This new section I think will be my last for awhile. I can't think of any new sections to write about and I need a break! 5Q5 19:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New section added - "Types of abilitities - classification

message: "Spontaneous psychokinesis and telekinesis are also believed possible and have been reported."
Believed possible by whom? Reported where? Apocryphite 21:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The next line referring to the coining of recurrent spontaneous PK provides a cited source. But, okay, if the list of References isn't already long enough :), I'll go and get another reference for the particular line above. 5Q5 19:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV issues