Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 14

message: As part of our scheme to overhaul our core articles, maybe we ought to think about improving Italian opera and English opera. I thoroughly revised German opera and French opera at the end of last year and I think these pages need the same treatment. English opera is merely a stub and Italian opera is far from ideal. It's worth making clear that by "Italian" and "English" opera, we mean opera in those languages. So the Italian article will contain works by Handel and Mozart, for instance. The English opera article should probably be renamed English-language opera, since I think it's worth including all UK, American and Commonwealth anglophone opera under this heading (as well as Weber's Oberon) to make a substantial article. In the same way, German opera covers both German, Austrian and other composers who used the German language for their works. I'm prepared to help out with certain areas of English opera (I know very little about American and next to nothing about Australian or Canadian opera) and with Italian opera up to the death of Mozart. Anyone else want to collaborate (NB:it might be May before I have the time necessary to do some serious work here)? --Folantin 10:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Count me in.  I agree about renaming the article.  My Oxford Dictionary of Opera is quite good on America, Canada, Australia, etc.  I can scrutinise the articles and do some thinking during the rest of this month. --GuillaumeTell 15:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great. What I did with the German and French opera articles was sketch out the subsections and their contents on the talk page first. I think I'll start that now. Obviously, it's completely provisional, so feel free to change anything you like, but I think this is a good way of structuring the article and ensuring nothing important gets left out. --Folantin 15:40, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some excellent ideas. In my view Opera in English, Opera in Italian etc. would be more elegant than English-language opera but would that be inconsistent with other work? Could the articles be candidates for 'Work in Progress' on the Project page? (BTW can we now remove 'List of Important Operas' since it is no longer in progress?). --Kleinzach 22:40, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Opera in English is definitely better. I'm not that concerned about consistency - too much concern with homogeneity tends to create problems at Wikipedia (the infoboxes being a glaring example)- and I'd probably keep Italian opera as it is. Yes, the two articles should be put in 'Work in Progress' and the 'List of Important Operas' removed. Maybe we can rope in other editors to take on some of the specialist areas. For instance, I doubt if we'll have much problem getting expert help on the G&S section of 'Opera in English'. --Folantin 08:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm at a bit of a loose end at the moment, so I'll make English opera my next big thing. Cheers, Moreschi  Want some help? Ask! 10:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A humble start has been made at User:Moreschi/Workspace 1. Feel free to chip in and add stuff as you deem it necessary. Moreschi  Want some help? Ask! 10:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great. I think we should copy and paste the English opera section from the main Opera article as a stopgap while we work on the revision in the sandbox. That's what I did with French opera. --Folantin 11:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Everyone, feel free to edit my sandbox, please. It makes life quicker: Folantin and I worked together when fixing up French opera at his sandbox. Cheers, Moreschi  Want some help? Ask! 11:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've now fleshed out the American section at Talk:Opera_in_English#Planned_revision_of_this_article and will make a start on the text on one of my user sub-pages later today. --GuillaumeTell 11:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: That would be ideal. Best, Moreschi  Talk 16:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps others would like to sign up? I don't feel qualified to help with this one, so I doubt I'll be active here. How about adding the excellent List of opera librettists to WIP? I'm very enthusiastic about this one. - Kleinzach 02:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, sure. Is there any way we can identify which articles have the "librettist" template on their talk pages? That would help build the list.--Folantin 08:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This won't be very helpful, because I haven't added it to very many thus far, but try . Cheers, Moreschi  Talk 08:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there is :Category:Opera librettists. There are 84 names. - Kleinzach 10:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent. That gives us plenty of material for expansion. --Folantin 10:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Future plans

message: I'd like to suggest moving Il pastor fido to "Il pastor fido (opera)", and then creating an article regarding the original play by Guarini at "Il pastor fido" (not sure if admin assistance would be needed to do this in place of the redirect that would be left by the move of the opera article).  The play by Guarini is notable in its own right as a literary source or inspiration for many later works of art.  (I would be interested in starting an article on it).
Alternative suggestions would be to create the article on the Guarini play as "Il pastor fido (play)", with a dab page at "Il pastor fido"; or keep "Il pastor fido" as the article on the opera, with dab link to "Il pastor fido (play)".
Thoughts?  Thanks, Lini 14:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right. Guarini's famous play should get priority at Il pastor fido with "Il pastor fido (opera)" for the musical work. --Folantin 09:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Somewhat off the topic of the WPOpera talk page, because it is a play not an opera, but, relevant to the discussion above, I've started a sandbox article on the Guarini play here; I will be adding more later before "promoting" to main article space. --Lini 13:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Il pastor fido

message: Hello, I have been improving the article Beijing opera over the last couple of months, and recently put it up at FAC.  I realize that Beijing opera isn't really opera in the Western sense.  Nonetheless, if anyone wishes to improve the article, feel free, and feel free to comment on it at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Beijing opera.--Danaman5 06:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See comment on Beijing opera page. --Kleinzach 10:56, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Beijing opera]] up for FAC 

message: We have an ambiguous :Category:Opera ballet containing two Rameau items, plus Puccini's Le Villi. We also have a viable article on Opéra-ballet. Should we change the name of the category to match the article and clarify its definition?
If so, can we use the plural form opéras-ballets? I realize that some people may disagree with this, but this is the form used by Grove and the French WP article on Opéra-ballet. --Kleinzach 01:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is evidently not controversial so I have created a new :Category:Opéras-ballets and I will be putting the old one up for deletion. --Kleinzach 04:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[:Category:Opera ballet]]

message: Lots of progress with our French opera composers, so can we think about June?
Rossini is a obvious target, and some time ago we talked about re-furbishing Mozart as soon of his entries are quite poor. Other possibilities might be Joseph Haydn, Paul Hindemith, Marc-Antoine Charpentier, or Johann Strauss II or perhaps two or three neglected 18th century Italian composers like Cimarosa, Pergolesi, Gazzaniga, Galuppi, Salieri, Sarti etc. Any other possibilities? - Kleinzach 02:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I rather like the idea of doing Salieri. It has a certain glamour about it. He seems to have written enough operas to keep us busy for a month. Moreschi  Talk 19:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Salieri, Sarti and Sacchini? --Kleinzach 23:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Another major one to bear in mind is Francesco Cavalli. I wouldn't recommend doing him next month, but some time in the near future. Salieri and Sacchini sound fine, though I have little info on Sarti. How about replacing him with Piccinni, another international Italian of that era? --Folantin 07:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: IMO Sarti and Salieri go together as a Mozart background pair. (Sarti's opera is quoted at the end of Don Giovanni). The Sarti bio page is quite good. Piccinni might be better off with with his Paris rival Sacchini.  --Kleinzach 02:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Composer of the month for June

message: Thanks to Whjayg for a terrific effort on developing GuillaumeTell's work on these. However I am wondering about our policy on red and black names. For example Template:Vivaldi operas lists 21 operas compared to 9 in the The opera corpus, and 5 in Grove. I wonder if some of these articles will ever be written?  --Kleinzach 07:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sigh. Probably not. Most should, I guess, be delinked. According to himself, he wrote 94, so perhaps we should count our blessings. Best, Moreschi  Talk 11:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are “good” and “bad”  leaving the red links in the articles or the navigation boxes. The good is, it will encourage people to find info to fill it in (to un-red  the link). The bad is, if the “red” stays forever.  ~ Jay 15:50, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd probably keep the red links, but check to see if the scores of those Vivaldi operas have survived. There is one record label (Naive, I think) which is trying to record all his extant operas, so it's possible a Vivaldi expert/fan will come along and fill in those missing articles. --Folantin 17:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Listing red-linked works from The opera corpus for which information exists in the usual sources is OK. However these boxes are for navigation (not for listing complete works which is done in the article itself) so perhaps it's better not to list black names or red-link items that were previously black. (I'll try and explain that in a different way if I am not making myself clear!)--Kleinzach 23:12, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I ahve removed all the red links from the navigation boxes. - Jay 04:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Opera title navigation boxes

message: Has anyone got any proof of the existence of any such opera by Georges Bizet?  In the Viking Guide it's not even listed among his uncompleted fragments.  Either it's a hoax or someone has misinterpreted a Portuguese  word as being a title or it's a garbled version of "Namouna", the poem by Musset that Bizet used for Djamileh.  Could someone look in Grove?  (And if you want a laugh, look at the version of the Numa page before the last edit.)  I put a note on the Bizet Talk page but no replies there yet. --GuillaumeTell 16:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Difficult. It's listed on the French page and various internet pages, but not on the German and Spanish pages. Everyone seems to agree on the date 1871, but perhaps it all originated here? --Kleinzach 11:17, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Checking Grove, zilch. Nothing. I checked to see if this was a cantata or a song mislabeled, as well. It's either not by him or doesn't exist, full stop. This, the original version is also somewhat suspicious. Yet someone else, apparently, knew of this and judged that this was the second of three operas - great edit summary, GT, I almost fell off the chair laughing. So either a hoax, something so obscure Grove and Viking haven't heard of it - searching Grove for "Numa" gives nothing, either - or some crossed wires somewhere. Any takers? Either way, this should probably be deleted. Cheers, Moreschi  Talk 11:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've got no info on it either. I think GT's explanation about a confusion with Musset's Namouna is plausible. I did think it might have something to do with Daudet's novel Numa Roumestan. After all, Bizet wrote the music for Daudet's play L'Arlésienne. But the novel wasn't published until 1881, when Bizet had been dead for six years. It might crop up in a Bizet biography somewhere, but let's face it, even if it exists this piece is so obscure it's doubtful whether it could stretch to a full, separate article. Put it up for deletion (without prejudice to recreation). --Folantin 12:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Numa (opera). Cheers, Moreschi  Talk 13:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Numa (opera)]] 

message: This is the last of the opera genres to remain as a singular. We need to decide whether to make it a plural (Satirical operas) or delete it. At the moment the category has three Kurt Weill items, one Prokofiev and one Shostakovich. It's really a subject-matter genre rather than a stylistic one, but at least it's reasonably well defined and might even support an article. So keep or delete? --Kleinzach 12:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Get rid of it per Kleinzach. --Folantin 08:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think subject-matter genres are just too subjective, and this one could also reasonably include a lot of G&S, Offenbach, The Golden Cockerel and who knows what else (Capriccio - a satire on opera?).  Stick to composers'/librettists' designations and delete this category. --GuillaumeTell 15:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I have put it up for deletion here. --Kleinzach 23:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[:Category:Satirical opera]]

message: I know this is a bit off topic but I need a favor from those who could help. I have been looking for “Giulio Cesare” opera DVD acted by Plácido Domingo as “Sesto”. I don’t know the performance year or the theater but one thing for sure is, Plácido Domingo at that time was very young. If anybody know where I could get the DVD, please let me know. I asked here because I just don’t what else to do and how to get it, sometimes I been thinking, the play was probably never been recorded. - Jay 03:22, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have had a look but can't find anything. Incidentally if you do find information about recordings/DVDs the article Giulio Cesare could certainly benefit from a recordings section. --Kleinzach 23:41, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think (hopefully I am wrong) I know why I couldn’t find the DVD. From the record, it says that he sang "Svegliatevi nel core" based on studio recording in 1968 (Wembley Town Hall, London, England) accompanied by Royal Philharmonic Orchestra.  - Jay 06:42, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for adding the recording details. That's useful. I see you have also started Svegliatevi_nel_core. Actually we have a policy of putting texts such as this on WikiSource, not on WP. --Kleinzach 23:12, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Giulio Cesare