Talk:Songhai Empire

message: I didn't really see any reason to still have the cleanup tag so I pulled it; if whoever put it up wants to note their problems, though, I could see what I can do.  Cheers, --Dvyost 03:30, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Whats the deal with him? Is he a real person, like a Askia, or is it really referring to the verse? Darth Panda 03:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Al-Hajj

message: hello bob
Given the quote,  "... but he also kept the traditional animist beliefs as well, which is a normal practise in the Islamic world." 
Is this a 'normal practice' in the Muslim world?  While the survival of pre-Muslim religions is common in many Muslim-majority countries persection and repression of non-Muslim, particularly non-Book religions, is also common.  Maybe the phrase could be replaced by something like 'traditional animist beliefs were allowed, which was a common practice within the Islamic world'.
It would also be good to have some information on how Islam treated the Animists.  Did they become 'dhimmis'? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by David Cheater (talk • contribs) 21:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Animism vs. Islam 

message: I really despise the Songhai Empire as a historian (the Mali Empire was much greater in my opinion), but this page looked pretty horrible.  I went in a reorganized the king list and put a table of contents for the article.  I would not wish such a disorganized article on my worst enemy, and Songhai is important to African history.
Scott Free 09:00, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a historian you are exposing a personal bias (tut-tut)! 144.134.150.203 (talk) 02:33, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finally 

message: Can anyone source the statement about the 200,000 man army.  i've never come across any reputable source that put the army above 40,000.  Sahelian Armies seem to have gotten smaller as they became more centralized
  Wagadou - 200,000 man levee (40,000 of which were archers; most of the rest were spearmen, unknown number of cavalry)
  Mali - 100,000 man reserve army (10,000 of which were cavalry; 90,000 infantry with 3 archers for every 1 spearmen)
  Songhai - 40,000 man standing army (this may have been augmented by levees)
*Wagadou didn't have a standing army and simply called up every able bodied man when needed
*Mali had a semi-standing army with designated reserves from each tribe in the empire
*Don't know much about how songhai operated.
holla back
Scott Free 17:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source for Army 

message: Well it seems some folks want to see this article get on par with the Mali Empire page and have added a chart.  I went through the chart and made some corrections.  I also started pages for the different dynasties, so we don't have to jumble up this page with a king list. If some1 could go through and fix all the red links, I'd much appreciate it.  I'm gonna dust off my history books and see if I can bring this article a little closer to B-class.  Up, Up and AWAAAY!Scott Free 18:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improvements 

message: This article needs inline citations with references. As far as Mali being greater, I'm not sure about that, I just think it had more history written down. Songhay was the greatest and largest Empire in African history, before Morocco came in. The Empire fought off a lot of outsiders, before it actually did fall. Therefore this article needs expanding, clean-up, and more sources.
Some online sources I found:
*http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CIVAFRCA/SONGHAY.HTM
*http://www.ijebu.org/songhay/
*http://www.geocities.com/ru00ru00/patrusi/Civilization/civil.html
I'll try to find more. I'm concerned about the correct names being used. It was Sonni Ali, not Sunni Ali. There are others, as you'll find in the above links, I think, anyway. - Jeeny Talk 23:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: Hi, Jeeny.  Yeah I'm glad someone else noticed the Sonni/sunni thing.  I've made changes where I could and even started a Sonni dynasty page to go along.  i'll add sources ASAP.  I'd have to argue against Songhai being better or even bigger than Mali.  Songhai expanded to some far out places very briefly (they were in Manden for less than a year before they got chased out).  They just couldn't seem to hold onto anything very long.  The Mali Empire on the other hand didn't loose any of its possessions until over 100 years after it began (starting with Songhai).  It was at its greatest extent at about 1300 and stayed roughly the same size until 1375. Even after loosing the Songhai and Jolof provinces, Mali was still humongous (1 million sq ki) and pretty darn wealthy. I promise to stop yapping about Mali (i know this is the Songhai page, lol) but it also left a huge cultural influence.  About half of West African countries speak some form of Mandinka today as their lingua franca.  Songhai is pretty much confined to areas around the Niger bend.  In short, Mali is like the black Roman Empire and Songhai seems more like their Visigoth/Ostrogoth counterparts.  They conquered alot but didn't leave much behind. The Songhai did manage to conquer the Hausa (no small feat) and scare the Mossi into staying put (something Mali never managed to do). The Mandinka however would never have been conquered by Moroccans or used silly battle tactics like herds of cattle, lol.Scott Free 00:58, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll take a diet Coke. :) You are doing a great job. But wasn't it (Songnai) the greatest empire at one time, at least? I guess it doesn't count because it didn't last as long and didn't leave anything behind like the Mali, even though they beat them up for a minute there? lol. Thanks for all your work. - Jeeny Talk 01:02, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

text: joy here, just a question between mali and Songhai empire which of them were more equipped when it comes to technology 102.89.40.180 (talk) 17:53, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You're very welcome.  Funny u said diet coke...I'm a dietbetic, lol.  Gotta give props where props is due, tho.  Muhhamad Ture was the greatest conqueror in Africa since Ramses.  I wonder who was the better general between him and say Sakura from the Mali Empire.  In retrospect, the Songhai Empire eclipsed just about every Africa empire in history for about a decade. I think Mali was the greatest for the longest period of time. Its common people were wealthier than commoners in most parts of the world. And the constitution they made and preserved is a big plus. In the end, I think the ultimate way to figure out how great a state is (or was) is to count how many great rulers it had.
*Mali...Sundjata, Wali, Sakura, Abubakari I, Musa I, Suleyman (6)
Maybe you or some1 else can fill us in on the great rulers of Songhai.
Take care every1Scott Free 03:59, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: songhai

message: While my knowledge about prehistoric africa is clearly lacking, this article contains some statements which seem dubious and should be backed up by sources (actually there is a lack of sourcing throughout the article). E.g.:
*"covering a kingdom that encompassed more landmass than all of western Europe" runs contrary to what the map on this article as well as :Image:African-civilizations-map-pre-colonial.svg suggest. "Western Europe" is not a good term for comparison anyway, there are wastely different definitions of western europe around. Someone with knowledge of the extent should find a better comparison.
*"Djenne and Timbuktu were on their way to becoming the greatest centers of learning in the ancient world." Were on their way to becoming? Meaning they never got there? Did they get close? Somewhat close? Ranking centers of learning seems like an impossible task anyway. I suggest the shorter "Djenne and Timbuktu became great centers of learning.". --Xeeron (talk) 15:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've always wondered about the size claim myself since the Songhai Empire's territory changed with its fortunes decade to decade. It 1500 however it was 1.4 million square kilometers as sourced by Hunwick in the article. If you add up the continental portions of what the CIA factbook considers western and southwestern europe (this excludes Monaco, gibraltar, the UK and non-metropolitan France) then western europe is 1,293,508 square kilometers. That being said, I guess we can keep the claim in. Scott Free (talk) 20:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources and questionable statements

message: The Askia section is poorly organized. The end of it seems to belong at the beginning.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.200.128.45 (talk) 02:47, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Askia 

message: The map in the infobox 
as well as this map depict the Songhai Empire as extending into the Mande heartland and to the coast between the Casamance and Gambia Rivers. However, as far as I can tell from written sources, it did not control either region. The Songhai did apparently sack the capital of the Mali Empire in 1545 but did not have any long-term control of the region, and I have been unable to find any sources that provide evidence for their control extending all the way to the coast. Additionally, the latter map shows Koumbi Saleh in the territory of Songhai, but my understanding is that Koumbi Saleh was no longer occupied by that time so it probably shouldn't be included in the map. Do these maps need to be revised or could somebody find sources to support those boundaries for the Songhai Empire? Ornithopsis (talk) 20:59, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map accuracy concerns 

message: I propose to merge Dendi Kingdom into Songhai Empire. I think that the content in the Dendi Kingdom article can easily be explained in the context of Bar, and the Bar article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Dendi Kingdom will not cause any problems as far as article size is concerned.
Secondly, most historical books referred to the Dendi Kingdom as just defeated Songhai Empire including the sources and refs in the the article of Dendi Kingdom. The latter was the only province that remained after the Invasion and the nobles that moved and created a new capital continued to call it Songhai until it was no more. The fact that the Songhai Empire continued to flourish in the Dendi province doesn't mean it should be called Dendi Kingdom if most historical books did not explicitly call it Dendi Kingdom but a Songhai Empire in the Dendi province with a smaller territory with the same Askia Dynasty as its rulers.Ibdawud (talk) 23:57, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This situation seems somewhat analogous to the relationship between the Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire to me. It seems to me that historians treat the Songhai state in Dendi separately from the Songhai Empire. Case in point: one of the sources you mention refers to Askia Ishaq II as "the last ruler of the Songhay empire". As such, I would argue that the Dendi Kingdom and Songhai Empire should be kept as separate pages. However, on account of the fact that it does indeed seem that the phrase "Dendi Kingdom" is not often used in academic literature, I think renaming the page Dendi Kingdom is worth considering if a good alternate name that can be supported by published sources can be found. Ornithopsis (talk) 07:03, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

text: Dendi is a successor state to the empire. They are two different polities. The articles should stay separate. O.M. Nash (talk) 22:08, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: The strategic position of Songhai in West Africa that contributed to the prosperity in Songhai 41.13.64.124 (talk) 20:08, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: not much anyway,their religion which was the same with the Arab empire led to some routes which enhances their gold and salt trade in places like gao, Timbuktu etc 102.89.40.180 (talk) 17:59, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: Europe expansion and conquest in the 15th and 18th centuries  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A03:2880:32FF:D:0:0:FACE:B00C (talk) 00:00, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  History  

message: this was one of the most high tech empire. it had  water tech and one of the most successful empire when it comes to salt and gold trade 102.89.40.180 (talk) 17:48, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Songhai empire  

message: according to history the Ghana empire wasn't much to talk about, well the Ghana empire was a popular and famous empire.and it was blessed with natural resources like gold, silver, copper, and salt 102.89.40.180 (talk) 18:06, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ghana empire  

message: "The emperor was the strategist and commander-in-chief of the military, but the balama acted as minister of defence and general. The janky was the army corps general, and the wonky were lieutenants in charge of a garrison. The head of the mounted archers was called the tongue farma. The hike was second in the chain of command of the empire and served as its interior minister. He was assisted by two vice-admirals at the ports of Kabara and Ayourou and commanded over a thousand captains, ensuring the rapid movement of troops along the Niger River. Sonni Ali established a landing port in Oualata, connecting it to the port in Kabara. Only the Malian portion remains; the rest, which continues to Oualata, was buried by the Sahara following the empire's fall.
The infantry was led by a general called the nyay hurry (war elephant), and the camel cavalry, called gu, was led by the guy, or cavalry chief. The cavalry mainly consisted of Berbers recruited from the northern provinces." 76.71.129.92 (talk) 13:55, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: I want to find out about a conclusion summary for Sonni Aii and Alia Mohammed do in establishing the Songhai 102.213.20.236 (talk) 13:05, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  History  

message: sources of income to Songhai economy 102.88.82.178 (talk) 14:23, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Trade along the West Africa coast word only possible 102.88.82.178 (talk) 14:36, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  History