Talk:Tehelné pole

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message: ,  I don't really get why you keep deleting someone's (mine) work just because you find something "too much detailed". With this approach I could delete half of the wikipedia; it is pathetic and demotivating. To be specific, in the "Record attendances" section it is up for discussion what is the appropriate number of matches displayed. I believe 10 is all right as sooner or later first 5 matches will all be sold-out. Moreover, whom do those 5 extra matches hurt? I don't really see a difference and those 5 extra matches provide more useful overview. However, what utterly goes against elementary logic is deleting certain matches from "Milestone matches" section. Based on I don't know what. All of those matches are there for a reason. I don't really get why 1st Champions League game could be there, yet 1st Europa League game not. So not only you are deleting someone's work, you are also deleting meaningful information just because you thought they were too detailed. Sorry, but this is a dilettante approach.--Penepi (talk) 14:13, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: None of those "milestone matches" should be there in that form. Someone needs to write a "History" section and include important matches in prose, not just throw a bunch of templates in there, wipe their hands and say "my work is done". It's just lazy. What difference does it make who the referee was or who scored anything other than the first goal? – PeeJay 20:02, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This is actually the most complex template for individual matches, I could have just put a simple table there. Actually, what you propose would have been lazy -- only stating first goal scorer or whatever. Instead, there is a complete info about a match. I see no reason why information such as goal scorers or yellow cards should be deleted. It is an added value when someone will look at the matches in the future. I miss any logic about erasing meaningful information. What I call lazy is criticizing someone's work based on some subjective preference and deleting it instead of a reasonable addition and improvement.--Penepi (talk) 21:00, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: But it's not encyclopaedically valuable at all. You're just adding information indiscriminately. You complain that it's subjective, but being a good writer is all about making subjective determinations about what should be included and what shouldn't; fortunately, most people agree about what's useful and what isn't, so if you're not capable of making those determinations yourself, perhaps you should let more qualified people have a go? – PeeJay 21:58, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: In whose opinion? Yours? And that is it? Ridiculous. I believe there are many people who find those information useful and it is completely incomprehensible to delete them. Apparently, you are not more qualified as you have been for instance unable to clarify why 1st Slovak Cup match and 1st Europa League match are not included in the "Milestone matches" section, whilst 1st Slovak League and 1st Champions League games are. That lacks any logic. And if arbitrary data erasure is a qualified act, then I'm sorry about you.--Penepi (talk) 22:27, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The thing is, sections on milestone matches and match details for the top 10 attendances add no encyclopaedic value to the article. Not to mention the fact that they are not backed up by reliable sourcing. Therefore it is more appropriate to remove the information. Prose detailing the opening match and perhaps the first competitive game would be sufficient, with a decent reference. You could include scorers as well. Do you think you could provide that? C679 20:21, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I am sure they do. Especially in the future it might be a very useful information to look at. I really see no point in deleting meaningful information whatsoever. Moreover, you could say that about pretty much very section in the article. This is a very shortsighted attitude.--Penepi (talk) 20:24, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not Wikipedia's job to record for posterity that which might otherwise be lost to the sands of time. If the info is important, other sites will keep it; if not, nothing of value is lost by not having it here. If your threshold for including info is "this might be useful someday", you almost have to include everything indiscriminately. Call it short-sighted if you want, but a list of the first matches in each competition is actually pretty unencyclopaedic. First match (if it's a friendly), first domestic competition match and first European competition match should be the absolute limits, and even then it should be in prose format with a source, not this lazy template method. – PeeJay 07:08, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The only lazy method is yours by deleting data based on some feeling. There is a source by every match, you might want to have a better look. I'm just amazed at your arrogant certainty which matches are right and which aren't. Europa League and Slovak Cup are two separate competitions and should definitely be there.--Penepi (talk) 09:44, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed one of the unsourced sections. Again I would encourage Penepi to add sourcing and prose to better present the information. C679 10:08, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Record attendances was just my iniatitve and I can even agree that this information might not be there. I mentioned the added value of looking at the information in future but when first 5 or 10 matches will all be sold-out in couple of years, that is not very informative. As for the Milestone matches, I insist on keeping it as it is. All matches are relevant and unique. Regarding international matches, they should also be there. Actually most of stadiums articles have a list of international games played there.--Penepi (talk) 10:25, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL, "all matches are relevant and unique"! Yes, they certainly are unique, but relevant? Ridiculous. The first match makes sense as it is obviously the first match in the stadium's history; the first league match makes sense as it is the first competitive match in the stadium's history; the first UCL match makes sense as it is the first European match; the first international match makes sense because, well, it's the first international match. After that, you end up taking a tour into unnecessary levels of granularity. I don't know what levels of prestige Slovakian people hold the Slovak Cup in, but the first Slovak Cup match at the stadium took place nearly a year after the first overall match! At that point, it's just another game and the fact that it's the first Slovak Cup game is pretty irrelevant. As for the first UEL game, why mention that when the first UCL game happened a month earlier and they're both European competitions? Why laud the UEL so highly? Just being the first match in "competition X" is not sufficient reason to include these. What happens in a few years when the stadium hosts its first UEFA Europa Conference League match? Do you want to include that too, several years down the road from when the stadium was opened? What makes this even more laughable is you're taking this so seriously! If you want to create a page dedicated to all the milestone matches at this stadium, create your own wiki, don't do it here. Levels of WP:OWNERSHIP are staggering here. – PeeJay 11:25, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

text: I also want to add that Old Trafford is a featured article and doesn't include any such tables. Please write a proper history of this stadium instead of just using these lazy templates. – PeeJay 11:56, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The only laughable and ridiculous thing here is your behavior. You are acting like a 5-year-old child who doesn't get the dessert he wants in the patisserie. Stop promoting your views here as the only way to go, it is completely ridiculous. So far, you have just shown that there is no reasonable discussion with you, you are just deleting data without thinking and justifying it with some ridiculous arguments. I am not taking a tour into unecessary levels of granularity, in fact I only added two more matches -- Europa League and Slovak Cup, so stop exaggerating, again, like a small child. Regarding the Slovak Cup game - it's not just another match even if it took place 7 years after the opening. The main principle of the section is, if you haven't noticed, to list the VERY FIRST matches of a competition. And both UEL and Slovak Cup fulfills this. Levels of WP:OWNERSHIP are staggering here, I fully agree.--Penepi (talk) 11:57, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you are being far too unnecessarily granular with this. Please address my points above or concede. You've been told why this content isn't needed and you've failed to address anyone's concerns. I will ask you again: what happens in a few years when the stadium hosts its first UEFA Europa Conference League match? Do you want to include that too, several years down the road from when the stadium was opened? (I note you've actually already answered this question by saying you would add the first match of a competition seven years down the line, and that is truly the mark of a ridiculous argument. You look absolutely stupid now.) – PeeJay 12:13, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

text:  You claimed there are numerous examples of FA-class stadium articles with a list of international matches played there. In fact, there are only 12 stadium articles at FA-class level, and none of them have a table listing all of their international matches. Do you realise how ridiculous you look when you make claims you can't support? – PeeJay 12:18, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: What about you addressing my points or concede? So far you have not been able to explain anything, you are just deleting the content arbitrarily. I have answered that repeatedly. Instead of a constructive debate, you are only making up amateurish arguments, according to which you must be right at all costs. The name of the section suggests that it is not necessary for the match to take place on a limited date. Or do you want to even determine what is too late and what is not? When the match takes place 7 months after the opening, it's okay, but when 8 months, it's not okay anymore? At the beginning you argued that the consensus of the majority (specifically two people, in this case) is important. When, on the other hand, I point to the consensus of dozens of authors who list international matches in the articles on stadiums, you arbitrarily said that they should not have done so. You're either a troll or you're consciously making a fool of yourself.--Penepi (talk) 12:25, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

text: One example for all - in the future (quite possibly in a year) a Europa League match will be played at the stadium. Someone (probably many people watching the game) will be curious when the first ever Europa League match was played at the stadium: which teams played, who scored, etc. And this information won't be provided to them just because you have some misguided, inner feeling that one line on the list is a nuisance. Ridiculously narrow-minded and stupid. – Penepi (talk) 13:07, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: There are other sites that can provide that information. We are an encyclopaedia, not a stats almanac. If people want to find out what games have been played at a stadium, let them go to Transfermarkt! – PeeJay 19:28, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you realize that you could claim this about virtually any information, especially when it comes to articles like stadiums and the like? De facto all the information here can be found on external sites; why do we actually have it here, let's just delete all the stadium articles, right? Encyclopedic means, among other things, providing facts and knowledge. This information regarding the first match played at the stadium in the prestigious European competition is definitely a fact. I won't say if it were thousands of lines of unnecessary ballast, but you're waging an incomprehensible edit war here for one line of information that can't hurt anyone and can only enrich the reader (even if only one). – Penepi (talk) 23:17, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: If it is for the benefit of only one reader rather than the majority of readers, then it is by definition a violation of WP:CRUFT. Just because a piece of information is accurate and "not hurting anyone" doesn't mean it belongs here. Not my fault you can't see that. – PeeJay 10:42, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid you didn't understand me. I have never said it is for the benefit of only one reader rather than the majority of readers, actually every reader can benefit from such an information. I insist that the information belongs here for a simple reason - it is a milestone match and it follows certain rules. All the matches relate to the main men's team playing at the stadium (Slovan or national team). I could theoretically have included a women's Champions League and/or UEFA Youth League games as well, but I didn't because it doesn't meet these "criteria". However, the Europa League is a separate, prestigious competition. – Penepi (talk) 14:00, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

text: I agree with the suggestion of first game, first domestic game and first European game. There is a separate list of International games, so the first of those doesn't need to be listed twice. If that list ever gets so big as to be spun out, then I'd restore first international to the milestone list. Spike 'em (talk) 14:52, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

text: Also, a section of prose describing them all would be even better. If this were to be done, then I'd have the first international mentioned in there too. Spike 'em (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. An actual prose account of the history of the stadium would be far better than anything that's here already. – PeeJay 15:24, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: You might wanna do the spell check then? English is not my first language so the check would be good. – Penepi (talk) 19:28, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Happy to see there's been some progress here. I have copyedited the section. It may need a bit more cleanup to focus on the stadium rather than the club. C679 20:25, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I meant a history of the stadium's construction, not just a prose account of the major matches played there, but this is a good start. Thanks Penepi. – PeeJay 06:29, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I know. But that is a bit more complicated, first I will have to look at other stadiums articles. – Penepi (talk) 14:23, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Milestone matches & Record attendances