Talk:Grinnell College/Archive 1

message: someone please alphabetize the alumni list.  it's silly right now.
Not only that, it's filled with not-so-prominent alumni.
* Also, technically Walter Koenig is not an alumnus because he did not graduate from Grinnell College.  I believe he attended Grinnell for two years and then transferred elsewhere.  (Does anyone care?)  I don't think I can find a confirmable source for this, though.  It was something I heard pretty regularly when I was a student there (early 90's).  TishaStacey 23:32, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  prominent alumni list 

message: I'd like to see someone start writing a section on self-governance.  To me, self-governance was an important aspect of campus life when I was a student there in the mid 1990s.  My understanding is that there has been some erosion of this philosophy.  Information on how this came about would add to this section as well.  Froff22 05:32, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Will do! It won't be much at first, but let's get 'er going. Andersem 04:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self Governance 

message: I know it's minor, but I always thought that Chicago and Minneapolis were more like five hours away, not four, and shouldn't Saint Louis be included as well?Kaibab 04:10, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's really a function of how much like a maniac you drive, and which part of Chicago you're going to. I used to make the drive from Ann Arbor, MI to Grinnell, which took me through the southern outskirts of Chicago, and it was definitely only about four hours from there to Grinnell. I don't have any personal knowledge about the trip to/from the twin cities, but Google Maps lists the trip from there to Grinnell as being about 10 minutes shorter than the one from Chicago. That being the case, I suspect that the two are roughly equivalent. I'm comfortable with the estimate being four hours instead of five.  Azriphael 13:43, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then again, this thread is a year out of date, and the relevant portion of the article has been removed. I'd call it a wash, and this whole chunk of the discussion could stand to be blown away. Azriphael 13:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Campus 

message: "Nearly 100 percent of Grinnellians who apply to either law or medical school gain admission." Is this really true and verifiable? How much is "nearly" 100 percent? Does anyone know? What about Heyhey, who added this information? --Babcockd 12:51, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Academics 

message: I just dumped some text in here for a merge...someone familiar with the subject should clean it up more thoroughly. NickelShoe 18:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is the diff where it was originally added. -- Gnetwerker 17:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GrinnellPlans 

message: This page could use a few photos. Any of a number of buildings would be interesting to include. Alumnists who are not recent may be interested in seeing photos of new construction such as the science building, the arts ceter, East campus, other buildings that I have no idea about. If you get very ambitious, the Grinnell city page could use a picture of the bank as well. Pdbailey 22:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ask and received. I have more, and I put up the ones that I thought were useful, but I could always put up others if there's a request (I drive through the area a lot, and I wouldn't mind stopping off again since it's really not out of the way if there's a request for a photo that I didn't take). Madmaxmarchhare 06:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  page could use a photo or two 

message: Whoever keeps deleting the part about Herbie Hancock attendeding Grinnell for one year, stop. He was only enrolled for one year. I think it's significant that Grinnell considers him an alum considering he never graduated from the college, he transfered. [unsigned comment of 132.161.189.63]
:It's also possible that he considers himself an alumnist. Read this inverview,  a search shows that he is often listed similar to this  page which reads, "He attended Grinnell College, majoring in engineering for two years, then he changed his major to music." Please provide reference to his single year attendance. I'll also note that the college lists him as '60 Pdbailey 23:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Elephant11, can you give a reference for this? Pdbailey 04:04, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hancock's alumni listing 

message: Some Anon has messed up this article with a large number of edits that have turned a solid encyclopedic article into a brochure.  I created and greatly expended the category on for-profit colleges and universities, and this article now reminds me of the ones for DeVry and ITT Tech before editors undid the articles that were clearly written by shills of those (far, far less respectable) institutions.  --Bobak 20:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: that's fine with me.  There's no set rule as to who should remove it.  I think it's been touched up well.  --Bobak 15:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Not sure what you mean. I think the `social justice' is a more centeral focus than `lots of money.' The Chronice was to add a source for the claim, esp. after it was removed by someone claiming that another college had a higher endowment. Pdbailey 05:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It's probably the latter.  Thanks for your work! --Bobak 23:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Advert tag 

message: To whoever did the last round of edits:  First, thanks for cleaning up my poorly worded budget stuff.  Couple questions, though: Why was the reference to Clay removed?  And as far as the reasons for the increasing fees, while I do not have any document I can point to, through personal discussions with Osgood and many of the VPs, as well as meetings (both Trustee meetings and ones w/ administrators), I know that these are the reasons for the ever-growing comprehensive fee.  Is this enough, or should I not include these types of facts unless there is a document I can point to?
: I wasn't the one who did the edits you mention, but as a general policy of Wikipedia, you should not include information for which you don't have a published source. It's not that I don't believe you (and I doubt other's fail to believe you, either), but that relating your personal knowledge, as compared to paraphrasing and citing a published source, contravenes the "No Original Research" policy. Azriphael 19:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  edits by unknown editor 

message: I think it's fine to delete the stuff about business.  I've never seen facts to support it (though it may be true), and this shouldn't be a place for rumors or disenchanted former students trying to get back at the college.  Also, I updated the financial stuff posted by 12.105.22.1 to something that is actually accurate.  If anyone wants me to expand it, I could make as lengthy a section out of it as desired.  - Matt Cleinman/1matt 15:08, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  business 

message: I've unceremoniously altered a number of contributions by 12.105.22.1, not because that person isn't welcome but because parts of the contributions weren't balanced, relevant or, in a few cases, factual. Even now, I'm not entirely sure that the bit about students being driven away from business is relevant - without hard numbers on the number who do go into business, this is essentially gossip - but as a leftist myself I didn't feel qualified to judge. - Andersem 05:12, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  edits by 12.105.22.1 

message: I removed some very sketchy stuff from this article.  Keep in mind prospective students and their parents will be reading this, guys.  For example, the quote "Students proceed to take several beers to the face while sitting in the street playing drinking games" is not what I want represented about my school.  I also removed the link to the cyrillic (sp?) of Grinnell, as that really didn't give any extra information.  I wasn't certain about the link to IowaProgress, but I thought I should put it up here before changing it myself.  If I don't hear from anyone in a week either here or on Plans ([woodschr]}, I'll assume it's okay to delete it.
Minidoxigirli 02:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  editits by Minidoxigirli 

message: I noticed someone added info on AltBreak.  Sweet!  Now let's get some citations in there.Minidoxigirli 15:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations? 

message: Do we need a controversy section, to hold things such as the "Students against Hippies" thing that just got added in the Myths and Legends section? We could add when the college revoked the charter of the local chapter of the Intervaristy Christian Fellowship because of anti-homosexual stances. That showed up in national media. Maybe a list of events that were notable enough to be reported in news sources outside of the immediate area. Blade 03:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know.  I mean, it would be cool to add stuff like that, but then do we have to get into the suicides?  Right now (speaking from the perspective of a student on campus) it might be difficult to right that in a NPOV.  Or maybe I need to go back to editing my paper.  Minidoxigirli 04:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy section? 

message: Since when?  That's nonsense.  I knew many people who had television sets before 2002 -- NONSENSE.  Zweifel 04:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And "mixed results"?  Wha?  I'm deleting it.  If you, oh Grinnell alumn who is angered by TVs, want to explain this, please do so here.  Thanks.Minidoxigirli 18:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Television Sets 

message: I like the new motto posted. However, I can't find any documentation that it is actually Grinnell's motto. Can I get some verification? Jacobko 14:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did a little research (and contacted Grinnell's Office of Institutional Research). I fixed the motto and made the formatting fall in line with other institutions of higher education. Man am I glad that I took Latin in college... Jacobko 17:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Motto 

message: Just so you know, I created the article on 10/10.  Check it out!  Zweifel 07:11, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  10/10 

message: Someone added this info on the class of '10 randomly.  If it can be better worked in, that would be great.  I'm putting it here for someone to do something with.
Class of 2010 Profile
Median SAT Combined Score: 1390
Median ACT Composite Score: 31
26% of first year students were recognized by the National Merit Scholarship Corporation as National Merit Finalists, National Merit Scholars, and National Merit Commended Students. 
14% of first year students are Advanced Placement Scholars as designated by The College Board 
64% of the Class of 2010 graduated in the top 10% of their secondary school class and 90% graduated in the top 25%
Application for Admission
3,703 students applied for admission 
37.8% of those who applied for admission were admitted 
406 new students enrolled
minidoxigirli-talk--contribs 16:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can see the value of this, but more in the college box on the side. Too bad it isn't included. Perhaps a seperate "recent student statistics" box should be developed. I think we would have to look around at other entries first. Pdbailey 19:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Stuff 

message: I am reverting stuff about the Campus Democrats for a second time. Unless there is something notable about the organization (and I've yet to hear anything notable about it), I don't think it deserves to be listed anymore than any other campus organization. Please do not re-add it unless you can provide a citation indicating some sort of notability. Blade 00:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  Lbgconfetti has broken the revert rule.  minidoxigirli-talk--contribs 06:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iowa Progress 

message: I restored the entire Social Activities and Myths and Legends sections, which had been deleted.  This information is fact-based, NPOV, and is of interest to both current and prospective students.  --wiscesq 14:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Social Activites and Myths and Legends 

message: After catching this article on digg, and how popular it is, I expect an extra eye should be kept on this and any related articles as its related to Grinnell: .--Crossmr 06:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keep an extra eye 

message: The reason that I moved the List of Grinnell College alumni is so we could have a comprehensive, ordered, well-cited list that did not get out of control. I think that the current "short version" is getting out of control and, as such, should be removed. Comments? --Jacobko 00:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of Grinnell College Alumni 

message: I justed edited the page to read, "Grinnell has the highest endowments of a liberal arts colleges in the US." because this is the claim of the chronicle and is agreed upon out by other refs. The claim about endowment per student doesn't have a ref. If you disagree, please add the ref. Pdbailey 03:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  endowment 

message: I just added the Newsweek "best all-around" again. If you wish to remove it, please add your comments here. I would encourage that editor to read the Wikipedia:Verifiability entry, specifically the first sentence. Pdbailey 03:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newsweek quote 

message: A recent edit removed, "Recent hikes in tuition and fees (more than $10,000 since the 2002-2003 school year) have caused a bit of unrest amongst the student population, with some students arguing for an increase in merit-based aid, while others propose the College use its endowment to fully subsidize tuition." I'd suggest that if there is a source (say, the S&B) for this, it can stay on the page. Pdbailey 02:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  tuition 

message: :Image:Honor 'G'.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use rationale for Image:Honor 'G'.gif 

message: I removed this because it is inaccurate:
:The first virtual community to ever exist at Grinnell was started in 1990, and ran for several years.  It was a primitive, student-created, bulletin board system called "The Trashcan".  It was hosted on the College's VAX system and functioned essentially like Internet forums still operate today, with users posting messages to various threads.  The community only had a few dozen members, and was once featured in a parody in The Grinnell Spectator, an underground newspaper that operated on campus in the early 1990s.
The first virtual community that I know about was UCLIB on the PDP-11 in the 1980s.  Who knows what preceded that?  
Besides, I don't think "The Trashcan" can be considered notable in the Wikipedian sense: 
* It was really only of interest to the students who used it, 
* There were dozens of similar discussion boards that year, and
* If memory serves, it was a VAXNotes bulletin board, which means that "creating" it was simply a matter of typing two commands and having a little disk space to stick the file in. 70.137.167.85 17:27, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Virtual Communities 

message: I just did an rv on the addition of a trivia section with a dubious claim that, "When the word 'Grinnell' is written out by hand, the sound of the pencil strokes corresponds exactly to the rhythm of the most famous melody in the William Tell Overture." If others think this is (a) true and (b) somehow relevant to the topic of the article. It might help to read, an essay on trivia. Pdbailey 21:46, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  trivia 

message: As a point of fact, the relevant Wikipedia page defines "cyclone" as "an area of low atmospheric pressure characterized by inward spiraling winds....the generic term covers a wide variety of meteorological phenomena, such as tropical cyclones, extratropical cyclones, and tornadoes."  
I realize that the breadth of the traditional use of cyclone is unfamiliar to at least one editor.  However, at the time of the 1882 storm, that's what the town residents called a tornado.  The college's yearbook is named "The Cyclone" after that event, not "The Tornado."  I have, therefore, restored the original term to this page on the grounds that it was, in fact, correctly used. WhatamIdoing 05:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I Agree with WhatamIdoing's edit. The term cyclone is unusual and dated, but evokes the era in which the event occurred--I'm also not sure that the tornado that must have hit the college wasn't from an extratropical cyclone. It's also worth keeping because of it's link to the lore of the college. Pdbailey 20:59, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I seem to have joined this discussion by accident, just this morning having changed it to "tornado" without being aware of this past discussion until Pdbailey notified me of it.  I am quite well aware that a tornado is a kind of cyclone; this usage of cyclone immediately makes me think of The Wizard of Oz.  I agree with Pdbailey's comment that this usage is unusual and dated, but I believe that it should be removed (as I did) because of this.  If we're writing about Anglo-Saxons falling off the left side of a ship, we don't generally speak of them falling off the baecbord, even though it evokes the era.  Instead, we say that they fell off the port side, because it's the standard word to use in 2007.  On the other hand, since I get the impression that it has a place in college lore, perhaps we could have a note such as "(then called a "cyclone", after which the college yearbook was named)"?  Nyttend 14:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds much better, I'll put it in. Pdbailey 14:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cyclone vs. Tornado 

message: The history section of the article needs more references, I just added some for social reform movement, but New Deal paragraph, and the first political science claims could also use references. Also, I think the paragraph starting, "The future of Grinnell can be found in its past." is seriously POV laden, any suggestions on how to make it assertions about fact? Pdbailey 17:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  references needed 

message: This talk page is quite long, I propose we setup an archive for it using MiszaBot. Does that sound like a good idea? If others agree, I can set it up. Pdbailey 16:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I feel a little uncomfortable acting on this without support of others, can  anyone comment? Pdbailey 23:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see a problem with it. Blade 03:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Sounds good to me. Jacobko 13:32, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  autoarchive? 

message: About the principle vs. principal issue:  My edit summary should have said that principle is never used as an adjective.  The -ple spelling is only used as a noun.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fumble fingers 

message: I made a change in myths and legends.  It said the myth about using the railroad tracks as an antena occurred in the 70s and started in the 80s.
I was a at Grinnell between 1970 -1972. That legend was very much existant then and was attributed (unverified) to the 50s.  So I changed it.  Hope that is OK.
: It isn't. Unless you can source it, it has no place in the article. Learn about what you're doing before you start pissing in our article, jerkface.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.216.169.187 (talk) 11:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Myths and Legends. 

message: >Although two students received bachelor of arts degrees in 1854 (the first to be granted by a college west of the Mississippi River), within 10 years the Civil War had claimed most of Grinnell's students and professors.
What does this mean? Were most students and professors killed? Or died withing 10 years?
Ten years from when? 1854 (1 year before end of Civil War)? That doesn't seem to make sense. The opening of the college?
--UnicornTapestry (talk) 22:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing statement 

message: What's with the UCC affiliation in the infobox? I don't see anything to back it up and I think it's pretty suspect. Avram (talk) 19:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's true, technically:  The college was founded by Congregationalist ministers, and eventually (after WWII?) the Congregationalists and a couple of other small churches meged into the UCC.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, but the affiliation is no longer accurate. The college was affiliated with the Congregationalists, but it isn't anymore, and it's definitely not affiliated with today's UCC. I feel like this should be listed as "Congregationalist (former)" if at all. [edit] Looking at some other colleges, I'm even less sure. Carleton College, another presently nonsectarian college founded by Congregationalist ministers, lists an athletic affiliation (MIAC) in that field and lists no religious affiliation. Knox College, also formerly sectarian, lists no affiliation, sports or religious. Avram (talk) 19:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Editing again: The affiliation on the Carleton page is actually "affiliations", which is the field for sports affiliations. I still hold that we shouldn't put past religious affiliations in the infobox; someone just casually looking at the page might leave with the impression that Grinnell is still a sectarian school, which hasn't been true for a long time. Avram (talk) 19:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: One last time: The UCC connection was listed in the "affiliations" field, which is supposed to be used for athletic affiliations, so I'm going to change that to Midwest Conference and remove UCC. As it stands, we're not following the infobox instructions, regardless of whether we should be listing UCC. Avram (talk) 19:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Affiliation 

message: I'm not sure I agree with the judgment that Williams College shouldn't be counted as a liberal arts college. The page for Williams lists it as such, and notes that the college has 49 graduate students (and 1,997 undergraduates). I don't know of a "common sense" rule for liberal arts colleges, but I don't see this as a common sense conclusion. Williams self-identifies as a liberal arts college. The Williams College page on Wikipedia identifies them as one. That's good enough for me. It seems to me that this feeds back into the question of whether "college" is a term applicable exclusively to schools with no graduate programs; a quick survey will show that there are many exceptions to this often-cited rule.Avram (talk) 14:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's all about citing sources here at wikipedia. One that I think the common definition would have to deal with is the omnipresent US News rankings, which puts Williams in as a liberal arts college. I say you're right. Now the question is, with Grinnell no longer having the largest endowment, does it belong in the lede? Pdbailey (talk) 20:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd rather the number didn't deserve to be in the lead-in, but I think that Grinnell's endowment is still one of the factors that has made it newsworthy, and the fact that it's edged out by a larger and much more well-known school doesn't significantly diminish the notability of Grinnell's dubious achievement. How about something like: "Until recently, the estimated value of Grinnell's endowment was the highest among liberal arts colleges, and it has the second-largest endowment per student among liberal arts colleges." I'm drawing from the data at List of U.S. colleges and universities by endowment, which doesn't completely match up with the data on the respective institutions pages anyway. That list would also put Amherst, Pomona, and Williams ahead of Grinnell, and make Wellesley tied. As I said though, I'd love to see this go, but it's (so far) still a major fact about Grinnell. Avram (talk) 20:53, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good, run with it. Pdbailey (talk) 01:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed up the wording both in the lead and in the body. I still feel like there are contradictory numbers and statements floating around the university endowment figures, but I'm not terribly interested in tracking them down now. Avram (talk) 18:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We could just say that different sources give different information.  Given the state of the financial markets, anything published last year is likely to be out of date by now anyway.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:31, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Endowment - Williams College 

message: The Reputation subsection of the Academic and Resources section is threatening to just accumulate mentions; what about making that into prose, or cutting down on the number of items? I feel like it somewhat overshadows the Academic Program section, even though the academic program section probably more important. Avram (talk) 12:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Academics and Resources Section 

message: I'd like to find a consensus on how to use the university infobox on this page -- I opted to move the English translation of the motto to the mottoeng field in the infobox. It looks like we have some disagreement on that point, as another user has switched it back to have the Latin and English in one field. I know this is minor, but I want to preserve consensus among editors and uniformity between university pages. Avram (talk) 10:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Usage of University Infobox 

message: The following subjects need photos from the Grinnell campus or area:
* Conard Environmental Research Area: A photo of the site and/or the new Environmental Education Center.Avram (talk) 05:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image Requests for this and other pages 

message: I'm removing "highly-selective" and and adding a comment directing people to the discussion here before re-adding it. As far as I can tell, the consensus was that the Admissions section made that phrase unnecessary and we were going to leave it out. Avram (talk) 11:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: round 3

message: Much of the history section appears to have been taken wholesale from the college's website. If so, it needs to be rewritten pronto. One useful resource might be the Short History of Grinnell in the 1998 accreditation review. Avram (talk) 14:08, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copy and paste from Grinnell website 

message: Do we really need this section on virtual communities?  If so, we need to remove the visible external links (which could be turned into footnotes or moved to the External links section) per Wikipedia:External links#Important points to remember #3.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:09, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Virtual communities 

message: I don't see how this section differs significantly from what I have read in other Liberal Art Colleges entries.  Maybe someone can rewrite a few lines, but most of this is factual, not opinion.  RickH86 (talk) 08:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Academic program "advertisement" 

message: I removed the "dubious" flag that had been added to the first sentence of the Admissions section. The statement is elaborated upon, clarified, and attributed appropriately later in the paragraph. As for third-party sources, the designation "most selective" is discussed and sourced a little further down. Read as a summative sentence that introduces the upcoming material, the first sentence is completely justifiable as it stands. Avram (talk) 05:03, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Highly selective" and "most selective" are different terms and have different meanings.  "Highly selective" is a term of the art, and Grinnell's admissions numbers don't meet the standard definition.  That's why the admissions office was weaseling with the "self-selecting applicant pool" line in the first place.  "Most selective" is a specific category used by a single publication.  Equating the two different terms is inappropriate.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case, what exactly is a "highly selective" school? Is there a sourced definition? If there are definitions somewhere that people agree upon, then sure, we should use the one that Grinnell fits. In the absence of such definitions, admitting only a pretty small part of the applicant pool fits the lay definition of the term. Avram (talk)  —Preceding undated comment was added at 01:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Referring to highly selective, collegedata.com states "although this label has no precise definition, you can consider any college that admits one third or fewer of its applicants as highly selective." RickH86 (talk) 10:05, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There are many sources that say exactly that.  It appears to be a single-variable measurement.  If you're talking about a place like UC Berkeley, then that definition is useful.  They get a wide range of applicants for all kinds of things.  If you're talking about a school that specializes in any particular area, or draws only from a particular population, then it's not really a useful measurement.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:34, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

text: So would "selective" be an appropriate term? I'm really just looking for a good way to introduce the admissions section. Also, it wouldn't be bad to reference the source of the term's precise meaning, so that this debate doesn't flare up again in a year or so. Avram (talk) 01:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that would be accurate, but why not skip that sentence entirely and get directly to the point?  WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Dubious" tag and selectivity information 

message: === Gates Tower ===
The picture of the dorms labeled "Gates Hall" is erroneous. Through a miracle of remodeling, Gates tower switches floor by floor from being part of Gates Hall and Rawson Hall. Hence, I've renamed the picture "Gates Tower and Hall," which is far more accurate, since, though the tower contains parts of both Rawson and Gates hall, it is universally known as Gates Tower. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.161.4.7 (talk • contribs)  10:14, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Architecture 

message: The picture of the dorms labeled "Gates Hall" is erroneous. Through a miracle of remodeling, Gates tower switches floor by floor from being part of Gates Hall and Rawson Hall. Hence, I've renamed the picture "Gates Tower and Hall," which is far more accurate, since, though the tower contains parts of both Rawson and Gates hall, it is universally known as Gates Tower. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.161.4.7 (talk • contribs)  10:14, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gates Tower 

message: I have seen old photos suggesting that the College once had a small natural history museum on campus, and that it was demolished in order to make way for the religious studies building. I do not know details. It has been suggested elsewhere that there needs to be more on the architectural history of the campus, and I cannot disagree. Would anyone like to add or begin a section with details on these? Aderksen (talk) 04:36, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing Buildings 

message: Other institutions that are similar to Grinnell list alumni that are much less prominent than the one's on the "Notable Alumni" section of the Grinnell page, so I don't see a problem with the list of alumni.
Also, the wikipedia page of almost every other prestigious liberal arts college mentions the college's overall academic reputation in the opening paragraph of the article.  It is important to comment on Grinnell's academic reputation in the introductory paragraph because it gives brousers a better idea about Grinnell and the type of school that it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by  Heyhey (talk • contribs) 23:54, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pursuant to the discussion some time (years) ago on alumni listings, I have removed the recently-added alumni from the list on the main article. Unless we reach a new consensus on whom to include in this list, I'm working from the assumption that we're still trying to move all other entries to List of Grinnell College alumni. If the current six are not representative or interesting enough, we can discuss tweaking the list. Avram (talk) 20:44, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prominent Alumni 

message: Does anyone have exact figures for faculty and students? This information is usually printed in college literature.
:The figures the college puts in the literature are sometimes incorrect, actually.  At the start of the fall semester, there were 1412 students at Grinnell.  1396 in the spring.  (Of course, some students take leaves in the middle of the semester.)  I could dig out faculty stats from a budget, if it was wanted. - Matt Cleinman
The images look pretty bad. Can someone put better pictures of Gates Hall and the Honor G? —Preceding unsigned comment added by  129.170.212.188 (talk • contribs)  19:18, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  figures on faculty and students good? 

message: Aureliusxv deleted:
A Grinnell education is anchored in active learning that occurs in one-on-one interactions between faculty members and students. Grinnell's open curriculum encourages students to take initiative and assume responsibility for their own courses of study, developed under the guidance of a faculty adviser. Outside of the First-Year Tutorial (a one-semester special topics seminar that stresses methods of inquiry, critical analysis, and writing skills), there are no core requirements. To graduate, students are expected to complete at least 32 credits in a major field and a total of 124 credits of academic work, with no more than 48 credits in one department and no more than 92 credits in one division. In the humanities, arts, and social and natural sciences at Grinnell, students have opportunities to conduct original research and undertake advanced study through independent and interdisciplinary projects that foster intellectual discovery.
as "fixing an advert."  Now I understand the problem with the tone, but deleting this information is inexplicable.  How many colleges have so few "distribution" requirements?  There's no such thing as "general education" requirements at Grinnell College.  Compare this to the experience of nearly every other college student in the United States:  They sit down with a long list of required classes and plan "two from column A, one from column B, unless I decide to major in finance instead of psychology, and then I'll need to..."
Consider as well:  How many schools actually provide a faculty adviser, instead of a full-time employee whose sole job is to get as many students enrolled in classes as possible with the fewest number of computer-generated errors?  At the three large schools near me, your "adviser" is paid about double the minimum wage, spends all day in a cubicle, and does nothing else.  These represent major differences between Grinnell College and just about every other college in the United States.  
For that matter:  Consider how many state universities provide very little contact between regular, full-time faculty and undergraduate students.  Many students (particular first-year students) find that their classes are taught by (graduate) students or by part-time adjunct instructors, while the "real" faculty do research or refuse to teach entry-level courses.  
Does anyone object to re-adding the information?  WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:47, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I deleted this section, 1) because it was flagged by another user as an advert effectively blighting the appearance of the page and 2) because the description is ripped wholesale from the college website. That being said, I have no issue with the content being there. You make a good case for it being important in its depiction of several characteristics of the college that are unique and defining. Would you mind rewording the information so it has less of a biased tone? Aureliusxv (talk) 06:03, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've (finally) re-written it to communicate the major points without sounding like an advertisement.  I've also removed some redundancies and re-organized bits of the section.  Let me know if you think there are still any problems.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:48, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

text:  Another user just flagged this section as an advertisement. I would appreciate it if that user commented here on what they would like to see changed, or made suggestions for how this section might be improved by others. Aderksen (talk) 16:48, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the tag, since there's no explanation and I can't figure out what might be the problem.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:56, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Academic program 

message: I'm not sure the fact that 46% of applicants get in somewhere supports the contention that Grinnell is an academic powerhouse. I think the national rate is something like 50%, so you would certainly expect better from a school that fancies itself a top LAC.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.118.180.50 (talk) 22:10, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Law School Acceptance 

message: Recently created - I merged it in under the social activities section but was reverted by article creator - doesn't need a standalone article in my opinion. Any comments? Exxolon (talk) 09:55, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure that this deserves an independent article either. I mean, WP: Notability? I'm fine with leaving it as a one-line mention under the social activities, but find the "longstanding tradition" line contentious. I'm a recent alum, and I don't ever recall hearing about anyone organizing a campuswide scavenger hunt. It strikes me as dangerously self-promotionall... Aderksen (talk) 00:12, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Grinnell College Scavenger Hunt]] 

message: I think Walter Koenig, who portrayed Pavel Andreievich Chekovhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekov_(Star_Trek) deserves to be on this list.
If someone is creating a section on architecture, please consider:
Buildings by César Pelli (listedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Pelli):
1. 2001: Bucksbaum Center for the Arts at Grinnell College, Grinnell, Iowa; 
2. 2001: Athletic and Fitness Center at Grinnell College, Grinnell, Iowa; 
3. 2006: Joe Rosenfield '25 Center, Grinnell College, Grinnell, Iowa
listedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Pelli 
I wrote a similar note on the town page and suggested if the buildings are not included on the town of Grinnell page they should be listed in the college write up in my opinion.
99.49.233.1 (talk) 22:54, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Walter Koenig is listed at List of Grinnell College alumni#Entertainment.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:35, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable alumni 

message: There's been a  tag on this phrase "Despite the growing trend of U.S. students taking five or more years to finish an undergraduate degree..." since 2008.  I'm not sure what prompted it, but I've removed it, because I don't think that supplying such a citation would actually be helpful to any reader.  But if you're interested in the subject, then look at sources like these, and many more, which can easily be found with your favorite web search engine.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:14, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation not really needed 

message: Given that a Bevo Francis article exists, should there now be a Jack Taylor article, given that he broke the NCAA scoring record previously held by Francis? Gmporr (talk) 20:14, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should there be a Jack Taylor article? 

message: I see that someone already noticed that the article seems advertisey in some respects, but that was more that a year ago, and it still hasn't been changed or really refuted. Therefore, I am going to remove the bits that seem problematic. Benboy00 (talk) 03:32, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article still sounds like an ad 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Is this because of the promotional ranking sentence?--MattyMetalFan (talk) 22:21, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead issue 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: On July 4th 2017, AntiVan limited the notable alumni section to just six people. It is unclear why this limit was imposed, but its imposition caused the removal of two of the most notable alumni from the list: Robert Noyce and Herbie Hancock.  If the notable alumni section on the main Grinnell College page is to list only six people, then those six people should be the six who have had the greatest influence in making the world what it is today; doing so helps communicate the College's own notability succinctly (a valuable quality, because, given that notability is the test for whether a Wikipedia article should exist, it follows that each article should include content that maximizes its apparent notability).
So why should Robert Noyce and Herbie Hancock be considered among the six most notable Grinnell College alumni?
Although not a household name, the case for Robert Noyce is easily made: nicknamed "the Mayor of Silicon Valley", he co-founded Intel and invented the silicon integrated circuit (without which devices such as the personal computer and smartphone would not exist), and he is credited with the idea of disposable electronics. I find it difficult to dispute that Noyce changed the course of history, and therefore I believe he should be included among the six alumni in the list, which would help demonstrate Grinnell's notability.
For people who are not music aficionados, the reasons may not be obvious for why Herbie Hancock is one of the six most important alumni of Grinnell. He is an extraordinarily influential and greatly accomplished jazz musician and composer: a winner of fourteen Grammy awards and one Academy award; a member of the Miles Davis Quintet; and a pioneer of post-bop, jazz fusion, jazz-funk, electro-funk, and hip-hop. His album Head Hunters is widely considered among the best albums ever recorded (jazz or otherwise), and has been sampled by such artists as Tupac Shakur and Madonna. His hit single "Rockit" exposed mainstream audiences to scratching, popularizing the technique and inspiring a generation of hip-hop musicians. Clearly, Hancock's work helped make popular music what it is today, and thus I believe his presence among the six notable alumni would further establish the notability of the College.
Who currently on the list should Noyce and Hancock replace? As of July 19th 2017, there are seven people listed, so three must be removed to allow for the inclusion of Noyce and Hancock, and to bring the number to AntiVan's arbitrary limit of six. I think Harry Hopkins should certainly remain on the list, because he was an architect of the New Deal. I also think Kumail Nanjiani should stay, because he is objectively awesome. I believe better cases can be made for the importance of Gary Cooper and Joseph Welch than for Katayama Sen, James Norman Hall and Dana W. Bartlett. Therefore, I suggest Katayama, Hall and Bartlett be replaced, their significance being considerably smaller compared to Noyce and Hancock.
Another problem caused by AntiVan's limiting the notable alumni section to only six people is that the list now lacks gender diversity, which is obviously problematic. To help fix that problem,  here are some people who could be included:  Hallie Flanagan, director of the Federal Theatre Project; Mary Sue Coleman, former president of the University of Michigan and current president of the Association of American Universities; Louise Noun, badass feminist and former president of the Iowa ACLU; Dana Ulery, pioneering computer scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory and former Chief Scientist of Computational and Information Sciences at the U.S. Army Research Laboratory; and poet Amy Clampitt, Guggenheim Fellow and MacArthur "Genius Grant" recipient. Of course, these are just a few of the possibilities.
I look forward to reading what others think about this issue of who should and who should not be included among the six notable alumni on the Grinnell College page. I also hope there will be discussion as to whether the page should continue with  AntiVan's limit. Many other college and university pages have not had this limit placed on their notable alumni sections, so why Grinnell?
—71.195.51.102 (talk) 18:04, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Since there is a stand-alone list of alumni the included list should be a relatively short list of very notable alumni, but restricting it to a maximum of six seems very arbitrary and overly restrictive to me. The issue was discussed in 2007 and it seems that at that time six was chosen as the list size Talk:Grinnell_College/Archive_1#notable_alumni. Meters (talk) 18:33, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: AntiVan's trimming of the list to the first six entries  with no prior discussion of which to keep seems less than appropriate. At the very least I would have expected a talk page summary of the action to open discussion. An edit summary saying "Make a case on the talk page for your favorite" is not sufficient notice or the same as opening a discussion. Meters (talk) 18:49, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Cases for including Robert Noyce and Herbie Hancock in the notable alumni section

message: * ref #1: https://www.grinnell.edu/sites/default/files/documents/grinmagfall11.grinnell14.pdf - by Peter Coyote & Terry Bisson
* ref #2: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Peter_Coyote_On_Grinnell_14.png
* ref #3: https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/01/01/131482/
--Alexander.stohr (talk) 01:52, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beginning of the student peace movement 

message: I work for Grinnell College and would like an editor to review and add this if deemed appropriate. Thanks for your help.
* Specific text to be added or removed: 
Replace: Founded in November 2000, the student-run Student Endowment Investing Group (SEIG) group, Pioneer Capital Investments (PCI), actively invests over $100,000 of Grinnell College's endowment capital in the stock market public equities. The group's mission is to provide interested students with valuable experience for future careers in finance.
With: Founded in November 2000, the student-run group Pioneer Capital Investments (PCI) actively invests over $100,000 of Grinnell College's endowment capital in public equities. The group's mission is to provide interested students with valuable experience for future careers in finance.”
* Reason for the change: the group underwent a name change. 
* References supporting change: 
Sarah at Grinnell (talk) 13:56, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi Sarah at Grinnell, happy to help with this, however, it is Wikipedia best practices to source information with independent, third-party sources. Can you find a source for this name change that does not come directly from PCI? - Cmccarthy215 (talk) 18:36, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: For clarity:  It is best if there's a third-party source (local newspaper is good enough), but it's not strictly necessary.  We're just trying to help the article be the best that it can be. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:35, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The Scarlet & Black has an article that references the fact that Pioneer Capital Invenstements used to be [SEIG]. Will that work?  Sarah at Grinnell (talk) 13:09, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done  PK650 (talk) 23:41, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed change to SEIG information  

message: The 3-2 engineering programs at the 4 listed co-operating institutions provide a Grinnell degree with only 3 years at Grinnell, with listed requirements. Grinnell doesn't mention 'Dartmouth" anywhere: the only statement is that other institutions may be considered by negotiation.  On the other hand, Dartmouth lists Grinnell as an institution they accept from -- but again without specific requirements.  It's not clear what the nature of the special relationships is.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.187.243.156 (talk) 23:19, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there a point to this comment?  Are you suggesting the Dartmouth program be removed?  It's correctly cited from Dartmouth, regardless of whether the Grinnell website lists it. RickH86 (talk) 15:10, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  You seem to be suggesting that Dartmouth is a reliable source for information about Grinnell degree requirements/  I don't agree with that.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.187.243.156 (talk) 10:28, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dual degree program