Talk:Freemasonry/Archive 5

message: DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page covers approximately the dates between 8 Oct 2005 and 17 Oct 2005.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Freemasonry/Archive_6. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you.--SarekOfVulcan 10:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

message: What is the point *IN YOUR MINDS* of having the Wikipedi entry be an exact mirror of hundreds of other Masonic websites? Don't you Masonic "lights" think people will just take one look at it, realize it is a duplicate of what they have seen elsewhere and trundle on off to say, the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Freemasonry, or some other non-masonic website? 
Masonry still retains among its emblems one of a woman weeping over a broken column, holding in her hand a branch of acacia, myrtle, or tamarisk, while Time, we are told, stands behind her combing out the ringlets of her hair. We need not repeat the vapid and trivial explanation... given, of this representation of Isis, weeping at Byblos, over the column torn from the palace of the King, that contained the body of Osiris, while Horus, the God of Time, pours ambrosia on her hair. 
Illustrious Albert Pike 33°
Morals and Dogma, page 379
Lightbringer 13:51, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand, Lightbringer, why you can't seem to come to a consensus with the other editors of this article on what should and shouldn't be included. They can seem to come to a consensus, yet you somehow are incapable of this. -- Spinboy 19:19, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't seem to understand why I can't come to consensus with the Pro-Masonry Propagandist 'consensus's' deletion of any information they dislike? Go figure Jimmy.Lightbringer 15:30, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Direction this page is heading under Masonic Editors

message: Note: This section restored afer user:Lightbringer removed  it for no apperant reason. WegianWarrior 10:46, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There was one already, and someone had the lame idea to merge it into the main article. -- Spinboy 01:17, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

text: The problem with articles specifically about minority views on larger topics is that 1) the info is not integrated into the main article, where it usually deserves to be, 2) POV-pushing individuals see an article specifically about their stance and tend to think they "own" it as represntatives of that stance and can say whatever they want, dispensing with the NPOV policy because they claim the "balance" comes from the existence of the main article, and 3) editors tend to ignore the side articles and focus on the main ones, so those pushing agendas on these fork articles get away with a lot more because fewer people are watching. In this case with a known POV pusher on the loose, this just reopens the battle that was put on hold while this page was locked. You can still see him creeping around to other articles to try to sneak anti-Mason comments in as it is. DreamGuy 01:42, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I've deleted the page because it is a violation of the block and arbitration of the Freemasonry page in obvious disregard for the Wikipedia process, and the information contained is not factual and unsupported by any references. Wikipedia is not a place for Masons to propagate their fiction and misinformation.Lightbringer 15:26, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't violate a thing.  It's a separate article, and as such has nothing to do with arbitration of this article.  grazon can do whatever he wants, because that's his article. Neither you nor I nor anybody else has a right to delete that page. MSJapan 18:48, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Nor is Wikipedia a place for Anti-Masons to propagate their unrefereced fiction and misinformation. You're throwing stones when you're in a glass house there buddy. WegianWarrior 15:34, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: But Brethren I am merely applying the same 'jurisprudence' Dreamboy and MSJapan applied to me in serially deleting all of my page creations. Secondly the 'progression' of the debate in the last two months of the Wikipedia Freemasonry entry (I silently observed and followed the state of affairs here for six weeks before interjecting myself) is that you had a anti-masonry page where all the 'criticism' views were contained. Some Wikipedians complained about the continual deletion of links and edits of "anti" pages and material and the CONSENSUS decided to combine the 'anti' page and the 'freemasonry' page into one. Now it is all blocked and under arbitration at MSJapan's and Dreamguys "frustrations". So now MSJapan is trying to "seriously" suggest that the creation of a 'anti-freemasonry' page is not a violation of the block, not to mention the Pro-Masonry P.O.V. tagline at the top that the content of the page 'can only contain historical figures' or some such. The material posted (obviously intended as the new version of anti-masonry, deleting all 'criticsm' paragraphs now on the freemasonry page, is a rote rip-off cut and paste from virulent anti-anti-masonry Masonic websites, of course in keeping with the MSJapan double standard, containing not a single reference to the masonic website the list was swiped from, and without a single reference, also in keeping with the Dreamguy/MSJapan double standard. Do we see a pattern developing here kiddies?Lightbringer 05:12, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I spent about 40 minutes tonight adding some interesting info about the history of Freemasonry under the nazi's then I thought what is the point, there shouldn't be a serpate sub page for this 'anti' material anyways as it is integeral to the whole. I then read about subpages on Wiki and see that it is really something they are trying to get away from. If it is used it is only used sparingly and should be for extraneous material, which this under arbitration topic clearly is not. I also see that Dreamguy has once again deleted my addtional paragraph to the Taxil hoax with his usual caustic comments. So it appears to be still 'game on'. I have placed a redirect on the 'anti-freemasonry' page, and that is that. We are under arbitration and block and the subpage is not following Wiki guidlines. Lightbringer 07:47, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should a second "anti freemasonry" page be created? 

message: James Anderson (d. 1739), a Scottish Presbyterian minister, wrote the Book of Constitutions in which he contrived the "traditional" albeit spurious history of freemasonry. Masons hold that God, "the Great Architect," founded freemasonry, and that it had as patrons, Adam and the Patriarchs. Even Jesus is listed as "the Grand Master" of the Christian Church. They credit themselves with the building of Noah's Ark, the Tower of Babel, the Pyramids and Solomon's Temple. In all, freemasonry borrows liberally from the history and traditions of cultic groups such as the Druids, Mithars, Egyptian priesthood, Rosicrucians and others to weave its own history.
-Fr. William P. Saunders
Fr. Saunders is pastor of Our Lady of Hope Parish in Potomac Falls and a professor of catechetics and theology at Christendom’s Notre Dame Graduate School in Alexandria.Lightbringer 04:56, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You know, I hate to break it to you, but every Masonic researcher is aware of this.  Entries on all those things appear in just about every Masonic encyclopedia or dictionary.  It doesn't mean we necessarily believe it to be the absolute truth.  Rather, it explains where certain thungs came from.  For example, two Masons, Lomas and Knight, attempt to tie Freemasonry as far back as pre-Judeo-Christian Venus cults in their book The Hiram Key.  It's got lots of sources, but nobody takes their research seriously, because it's a lot of speculation masquerading as fact.  Just because someone says something doesn't mean it's true, the same way not everyone believes that the world is less than 6000 years old.  These same people who invented this history also thought that good medical treatments were giving people mercury and leeching blood out of them.  Given the application of Reason, I fail to see a) why that quote says anything about Freemasonry that is valid now, and b) what that quote supposedly says about Masonic research methodology. MSJapan 15:42, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm currently reading Snow Crash, where "the application of Reason" has quite a different (and rather tempting) meaning. :-)--SarekOfVulcan 00:07, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

text: The above paragraph rebuttal was not written by me. I don't know if it is written by a unsigned third party, or it is some kind of little game by MSJapan. For the record I am well aware of the book/books by these authors, as well as their Masonic membership. Lomas is generally disliked by 'mainstream' masonry, especially for his revealing of certain rituals and images.Lightbringer 05:45, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

text: From the back inside dust jacket of the selfsame The Second Messiah - "In 1976 [Christopher Knight] became a Freemason...In 1986 [Dr. Robert Lomas] became a Freemason...".  From the inside front jacket of The Book of Hiram - "When Freemasons, Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas..."  From the inside front cover of The Hiram Key - "When Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas, both Masons..."  I don't have Uriel's Machine, but I'm sure something similar is there, and finally, from the inside back of the dust jacket to Freemasonry and the Birth of Modern Science - "In 1986 Robert [Lomas] became a Freemason and quickly became a popular lecturer on Masonic history before coauthoring the international bestsellers..." MSJapan 01:48, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not just Knight and Lomas, they are just the tiny tip of an iceberg full of Masonic claims about it's origins and accomplishments. Read Pike, read Mackey, read Hall. The list and claims are endless. One thing is certain is that Anderson was trying to cover up his burning of the real original constituions of the Lodge, which were Trinitarian Roman Catholic. Instead what we have is Satanic inspired Occultism from the Rosicruicians and other heretics who opened the gates of hell for 300 years of apostasy and terror.Lightbringer 05:45, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Masonic Academic Research Methodology