Talk:Dawson College shooting/Archive 2

message: Hmm the images are blur, not nice, really --TheFEARgod (listening) 20:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think taking sharp pictures was high on the to-do list of anyone present. --Qviri (talk) 20:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Three of the images were just hazy, and needed some radius=~5 unsharp mask to clear it up.  Sorry if I oversharpened them at all.  --Interiot 21:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Could someone move the PD licenced pictures to Commons so they can be used in other Wikimedia projects? Thank you. --Julián Ortega - drop me a message 22:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yah, I'll go ahead and do that for the three I put in, they are on my computer, if someone else could get the other two that would be great. --Gregorof 00:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually is anyone else capable of doing that? No Login for Commons/confused what to do. --Gregorof 00:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: Global News said...
Anastasia De Sousa was killed on scene. She's a student, first year, at Dawson, her body was left at the scene (unlike the suspect). She was shot in the abdomen.
Global Quebec News Special Report 23h00 13 September 2006
I don't see why this was excised. 
70.51.11.242 03:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I couldn't find other sources to support the claim, so I removed it. I don't think that it's widely known, and it's better not to be too speculative (or so it seems). --HappyCamper 03:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not speculative. They interviewed De Sousa's family. Global is a major TV network in Canada. The Quebec TV station is called "Global Quebec". I can't see how it would not be widely known in Quebec (where the shooting occurred). In Quebec, people would have seen the news broadcast on television. 70.51.11.242 03:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Local news coverage would always be better and more current than wire services, and have more indepth coverage. TV broadcasts are always more indepth than their companion website blurbs. 70.51.11.242 03:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: We already have info in the article from some interviews on LCN. I don't see anyone vetting those for crossreferences, even though the only people who watch LCN are in Quebec. 70.51.11.242 03:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, found it - this mentions it. --HappyCamper 03:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, I've integrated it with that website in the summary section. 70.51.11.242 04:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great editing. --HappyCamper 04:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What the reference *is* stating 

message: How'd you reference the Montreal news conference that was staged at 22h00 in Montreal with Mario Tremblay, SPVM commissioner, Urgance Sante leader, Dawson representative, MGH representative, done in French and English? 70.51.11.242 04:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sometimes there are transcripts of news conferences published. I've seen them come up maybe a few days after the broadcast, perhaps because people want to make sure everything written matches what was said. --HappyCamper 04:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah hah! This should be it:  - I assume "Communiqués" is what we are looking for? Maybe you could add this to the article? --HappyCamper 04:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really, the news conference contains information not in the communique. The English and French statements were slightly different, and the Q&A expanded on the statements alot. 70.51.11.242 04:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: - from newsconference 70.55.85.6 13:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  reference... 

message: The sources showing reports of a second shooter appear to predate the following articles published by Canadian media  (Despite the sensationally titled Sydney Morning Herald's contents. Cute... "punk killer".) 
* The CBC: last updated 7:39 EDT
* The Globe and Mail: last updated 11:21 EDT]
* CTV: last updated 11:28 pm has no mention of a second shooter.
* The Montreal Gazette: no time shown but it also says "lone gunman" and makes reference to a 9pm call to the family.  
- BalthCat 05:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, as well as the first eyewitness interviewed on CBC Newsworld on Wednesday.  I also heard a CBC reporter relay that the g-word (goth) had been dropped by some witnesses.  I wasn't implying they made the title up out of his hairstyle, it was labelling him the sensational title of 'punk killer'.  A mohawk does not a punk make.  And it's jumping to conclusions about the person based on a hairstyle, and doing so to be sensational.  (C'mon, you can feel it can't you?)  I find it disrespectful to the tragedy and damaging to those punks (I'm not one, FTR) who don't go around shooting up schools. - BalthCat 06:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reports of second shooter. 

message: Globe and Mail - "Montreal La Presse identified the gunman as Kimveer Gill of Laval, north of Montreal"
 This is a online profile of fatality666 who identifies himself as Kimveer.  "His name is Trench. You will come to know him as the Angel of Death . He is male. He is 25 years of age. He lives in Quebec. He finds that it is an O.K place to live. He is not a people person. He has met a handfull of people in his life who are decent. But he finds the vast majority to be worthless, no good, kniving, betraying, lieing, deceptive, motherfuckers."
The page goes on to describe the results of various quizzes, some of the results identifying him as "suicidally depressed" and "most likely to commit murder", it also says he wants to die in a "hail of bullets." 
 This is the blog.  Last entry September 13, 2006, 10:41:am.
UPDATE:  Image gallery showing fatality666 with mohawk, trenchcoat and rifle.
Not sure if this should go in the main article yet...
Amygdala 06:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Globe and Mail, La Presse - these *are* mainstream media. It's the equivalent to USA Today and New York Times, respectively. 70.55.85.6 13:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: On a side note, combing through this blog is really creepy. "Last logged in: September 13, 2006, 10:35am". Gives me chills Canadian-Bacon   t c e 06:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia doesn't allow original research, but if that is the guy, hell yeah. That is some good original research, and it deserves to be in the article. ♠ SG →Talk 07:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Problem?  No piercings... - BalthCat 07:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course that was just witnesses.  He does appear to have a black Pontiac... if I'm not mistaken? - BalthCat 07:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: the globe cites la presse saying a pontiac sunfire, and that he's from laval. also the source i found above (see additional references) also says laval. i can't reach this site but found it by googling kimveer gill: http://www.gothmetal.net/calendar/dayview/2005/8/16 --  Denstat 07:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: http://vampirefreaks.com/picview.php?user=fatality666&uid=718193&c=49&x=55&d=0&g=1&s=0&fid=0 "Haha nice clothes you have here.^^ Hope you don't use your gun to shoot at anyone xD"--130.245.197.183 08:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Here is a media report about the blog.  Wonder if they found the link surfing Wikipedia?.. I guess this means the links can be put up on the page. Amygdala 08:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Good catch. I've added it to the article. --Kizor 10:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's now referenced on several sites (found via google news). Most of his profile has been removed. --130.245.197.183 10:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text:  "Wonder if they found the link surfing Wikipedia?" Note that indeed an American journalist on the John Mark Karr case early in the going added his name to the Ramsey article, before it was released to the public as being the suspect's name. The press does seem to frequent us for this sort of stuff. Or they could've just Googled it themselves.  --  Zanimum 19:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Having interned as a reporter at the Ottawa Sun, yes I can definitely confirm that Wikipedia is more than "just another resource", it's where the majority of their reporters turn when writing a story.  Typically news reports "wind down" in the last couple paragraphs, so a story about Castro's failing health will end mentioning how he became famous, or his family life, or some other "trivial" facts - those come almost exclusively from Wikipedia, in my experience. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead)  14:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm sure it has nothing to do with an ongoing police investigation or sensitivity to the victims...  --ElKevbo 17:49, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The shooter - possible link to his blog 

message: This blog belongs to the ALLEGED shooter. Keep in mind that the police have not confirmed his identity, let alone the website. As such, write your additions to the article accordingly.
Anyhow, I've cleaned up the article massively, hopefully it's in a much better state than before. The vandalism should die down for a bit, since we are now in the wee hours of the morning here in Montreal. But stay on alert, we've got 8000 students with no school tomorrow. Where do you think a lot of them will be? ♠ SG →Talk 09:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Having interned as a reporter at the Ottawa Sun, yes I can definitely confirm that Wikipedia is more than "just another resource", it's where the majority of their reporters turn when writing a story.  Typically news reports "wind down" in the last couple paragraphs, so a story about Castro's failing health will end mentioning how he became famous, or his family life, or some other "trivial" facts - those come almost exclusively from Wikipedia, in my experience. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead)  14:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm sure it has nothing to do with an ongoing police investigation or sensitivity to the victims...  --ElKevbo 17:49, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Important 

message: There's been significant confusion over whether Anastasia DeSouza died on the scene or at the Montreal General Hospital. The article has stated both more than once. Can I ask for references to prove this one way or the other? --Kizor 10:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: SPVM Press Release in french. The victim (which name has NOT been released died on the scene. Sorry, the SPVM did not release this in english yet. --Deenoe 11:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  From CBC and CTV national nightly news, Sept16, she was shot and died in the atrium. 70.51.9.229 05:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The victim's place of death 

message: I'd fix this myself, but I'm forced off the computer. The number of victims is inconsistent: the introduction speaks of 19 injured, the victims section of 20 admitted to hospitals. The latter is likely from the time when it was thought that DeSouza had died at Montreal General. The number of critically injured also fluctuates, though it does the same in the media. --Kizor 12:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The number of injured

message: Very good wiki collaboration on this in the past day. I suggested the Signpost does an article on this topic. My take on some key strengths(cursory examination, I may be naively wrong on some of these).
*Rapid response and aggregation of news as it came out, with good sifting through of contradictory reports
*Adherence to NPOV a NOR, by and large and where violated, quickly fixed
*Good blend of sympathy but goal orientation (write a good article) in the talk pages
*Better synthesis than most if not all conventional news outlets
*Collaboration between established editors, new users, and anons
*Good follow-up line editing and maintenance of encyclopaedic tone during the whole period
Of course all is not perfect
*The natural home for this would have been Wikinews, not Wikipedia
*Coordination between the corresponding item on Wikinews, and on what became 2 forked French wikipedia versions of the story, could have been better
*There was some vandalism, but reverted quickly
Martinp 12:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm surprised the French version Wikipedia articles aren't better. This happened in Quebec, and many students of the English language Dawson are themselves French Quebeckers. 70.55.85.6 13:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes guys, excellent job.  In fact, we recieved some really good publicity as a result of this. Following my uploading of the three pictures I took on my cell phone, in addition to my and others work on the article in its infancy, I recieved a message on my talk page from a journalist at La Presse.  Phoned him back and talked to him for a while.  Turns out, he wrote an article published in todays paper commending wikipedia on its a) quick response and b) factual accuracy.  He cites later a professor of communications and studies which both indicate that Wikipedia is no more prone to errors than is Encyclopedia Britannica.  Unfortunately, I was cited as the author of the article, which is misleading, as many others where obviously involved.  It should be noted also that the article was orignally created at 12:57 (EDT), approximately 16 minuites after the shooting began by Samaster1991.  Very impressive.  Thanks to everyone, and give yourselves a pat on the back - I will cite the article when it is available online, in the meantime it is only available in print, in La Presse (3rd/4th page).  --Gregorof 02:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia should be proud of itself 

message: I've added her name to the article, but there's conflicting information floating around about her age.  I've seen it reported variously as 18 (in the reference I provided), 20, and 22.  At this point there's probably no really reliable source of information on this, so keep your eyes open and if you find an official announcement, let's use that.  -/- Warren 16:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's reported that she was called "Stasy" , but her name is "Anastasia". CJAD, major Montreal radio station calls her Stasy. 132.205.44.134 19:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Montreal Police and MGH didnt confirmed the name of the victim. --Deenoe 20:22, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  the victim 

message: Is it appropriate to discuss briefly about the gun control debate, or my breif statement beside Gilles Duceppe's comments will be enough? I'm hesitating due to the risk of bias or POV--JForget 16:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No.  The weapons were legally registered.  It's bad enough the fruitcake who pulled the trigger is being given his 15 minutes of post-humous fame for this;  we need not pander to the attention starved kooks in the legislature as well.  Better to find some references first. mdf 17:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No matter what, gun control WILL be brought into question. Just as it happened with Columbine, it's going to happen here in Canada. As of this moment, none of that has made major headlines yet. If and when it does, then it deserves a place in the article. ♠ SG →Talk 18:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking over the article about the Columbine High School massacre, I see that "gun control" gets brief blurbs and wikilinks elsewhere, the article preferring to focus on the matter at hand, not side issues.  Seems like a good plan to me.  Again, I suggest that people focus on fact-aquisition and (very important, given the media is the dominant source here) fact-checking;  what our Glorious Leaders have to say isn't very interesting in the long term.  mdf 19:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Gun control is actually also being discussed by victims, especially given that "Glorious Leader" (actually, Dull, Shy, and usually in hiding) Stephen Harper wants to abolish one of the gun control laws, in return for increasing penalties. But this would do nothing to disuade a person who plans to die. 70.51.9.229 04:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Gun Control Debate

message: I dont know much about "featured articles" but in the last 24hours this has turned out to be one of the best articles I have read on wikipedia. Shouldnt this be a nomo for featured article Samaster1991 19:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Read Wikipedia:What is a featured article?, and then answer that question for yourself. ♠ SG →Talk 20:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Featured Article

message: Apparently there was a teacher who was at l'ecole polytechnique, concordia, and dawson at the times of each of the shootings. anyone else hear about that?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.156.218.184 (talk • contribs) 
HIGHLY... HIGHLY doubt it. --Deenoe 22:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  the unlucky proffesor 

message: Женя 22:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Age of majority in Quebec (and the rest of Canada) is 18. So by legal definition, Ms. DeSousa was a woman, end of discussion. Details... in Quebec it's 18 for everything but driving. In other provinces the ages vary. — NRen2k5 17:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Legal age for? --Qviri (talk) 23:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Legal ages.  For driving: 16.  For sex: varies, 14-18.  Smoking: 19.  Drinking: 18(PQ), 19(All others, I think).  At 18, in Canada, she would be considered an adult in everything except two things, smoking and drinking... One could argue that sex and voting, are better ways to exercise your womanhood than smoking and drinking... so I'm not sure where exactly you're going.  Also "ethnocentrists"??  - BalthCat 23:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hrmm, in Quebec, the legal age for Drinking and smoking is 18. Either that or the people who've carded me for most 18th year of life were blind.Ghilz 23:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah that's why I mentioned PQ?  I wasn't sure about smoking.  Point still was that 19 is only for two things in the rest of Canada, so in Quebec it's not even that... there you go. - BalthCat 02:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: um, try 18 as legal age for voting. this full right of citizenship typically characterizes adulthood, and canadians may vote at 18. it's not pandering to political correctness--  Denstat 02:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Since when has the ability to smoke mean you're an 'adult'? As far as Canada goes, 18 is the legal age. Disinclination 03:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propaganda term 

message: Just a kuddos for us Wikipedians, Quebec Newspaper La Presse has an article on Wikipedia's speed on writing an article on the shooting, as well as linking to pictures. The article isnt yet on their website, so I cant link to it, unfortunately. Just found it kind of cool. - Ghilz 23:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, we've got some great editors around here. Kudos to you all. If I'm not mistaken, User:Amygdala was the first to discover the alleged shooter's website. ♠ SG →Talk 23:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the support, SG, and for tidying up my edits.  I think I may well have been the first.  Media attention was drawn to the blog a couple of hours after I put the link up here, and we know that journalists have been looking at the page (eg. the La Presse article).  I agree that this article is an excellent example of collaboration in response to tragedy, and it shows the advantages of open-source reporting over mainstream methods.  The most informative photos and videos of this event are from cellphones rather than TV cameras, for example.  Amygdala 07:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (As written above) Yes guys, excellent job.  In fact, we recieved some really good publicity as a result of this. Following my uploading of the three pictures I took on my cell phone, in addition to my and others work on the article in its infancy, I recieved a message on my talk page from a journalist at La Presse.  Phoned him back and talked to him for a while.  Turns out, he wrote an article published in todays paper commending wikipedia on its a) quick response and b) factual accuracy.  He cites later a professor of communications and studies which both indicate that Wikipedia is no more prone to errors than is Encyclopedia Britannica.  Unfortunately, I was cited as the author of the article, which is misleading, as many others where obviously involved.  It should be noted also that the article was orignally created at 12:57 (EDT), approximately 16 minuites after the shooting began by Samaster1991.  Very impressive.  Thanks to everyone, and give yourselves a pat on the back - I will cite the article when it is available online, in the meantime it is only available in print, in La Presse (3rd/4th page).--Gregorof 07:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If it doesn't go online, can someone scan it and put it somewhere on the internets? I think uploading here would be a bit much, but there's always photobucket, imageshack, etc. Thanks. --Qviri (talk) 12:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I guess it should be noted -- albeit long after the fact -- that if in fact Wikipedia was the source for the link to the shooter's website, this would amount to an egregious breach of WP:NOR.  Yet another reason to move articles like this from the mainline Wikipedia into wikinews. mdf 14:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Only if new deductions or interpretations of the contents of the website were made. Stating that it exists and quoting content and images from it are not OR as it can be verified. HighInBC 15:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would imagine purporting that somebody's profile on a website belongs to the shooter could be considered OR. If we do not suggest that, then the website is irrelevant to the article. --Qviri (talk) 16:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes.  When Amygdala claims to have been the first to connect an URL to the shooter, and used Wikipedia to publish this fact , this was original research as per WP:NOR (at least if the claim is true).  Wikinews does not operate under the restriction's of WP:NOR, so it would have been acceptable to publish that fact there first.  But since Wikinews is not a WP:RS, it would still have to awaited publication in some more acceptable venue before the fact could be introduced here.  Water under the bridge at this point, but these are things editors should keep in mind, particularly when working on "current event" articles.  mdf 16:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey mdf, I understand the no original research rule.  What I meant was that I had added the link to this talk page before there was any mention of the blog in the media.  If you read the above discussion, I waited until a mainstream newspaper article on the shooter's blog had appeared before putting the link on the article itself.  Hope that reassures you! Amygdala 23:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Awesome, thanks. --Qviri (talk) 16:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, are we saying that reference to the shooter's online blog probably originated from here? --HappyCamper 10:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia In La Presse 

message: Dawson College massacre → Dawson College shooting – The old name was shooting, it has been changed to massacre : 2 deaths isnt exactly my definition of massacre Deenoe 23:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree on this comment. The Montreal Police fast response and new procedures since Polytechnique prevented Gill to shoot more people, and possibly to kill more. --Deenoe 10:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree on "shooting".  However, the police response appears to have had little to do with with lack of a high body count:  the instant nutcase fortunately lacked either motivation and/or detailed planning.  Simply look at how many people Harris and Klebold managed to kill in about the same time-frame Gill was "given".  (And do note that even in that case, H&K ran out of motivation towards the end as well.)  mdf 12:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
* Support per nom. --Deenoe 23:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree on this comment. The Montreal Police fast response and new procedures since Polytechnique prevented Gill to shoot more people, and possibly to kill more. --Deenoe 10:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree on "shooting".  However, the police response appears to have had little to do with with lack of a high body count:  the instant nutcase fortunately lacked either motivation and/or detailed planning.  Simply look at how many people Harris and Klebold managed to kill in about the same time-frame Gill was "given".  (And do note that even in that case, H&K ran out of motivation towards the end as well.)  mdf 12:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Okay, so I nominated the article when it was listed as massacre. Please stop moving the page back and forth, really. --Deenoe 23:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: One person died? Is that a massacre? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.3.64.174 (talk • contribs) 
::Two persons --Deenoe 23:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Two including the shooter. ♠ SG →Talk 23:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The shooter killed himself as autopsy has proven. Besides, a typical vehicular accident has more fatalities than this. --Kvasir 23:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct : A police officer shot Gill in the leg, Gill felt trapped and commited suicide. Police tragged him outside for reanimation but gave up. --Deenoe 23:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A murder and a suicide really doesn't strike me as a 'massacre'. Is there an official number of deaths for it to be considered a massacre, and can somebody get that figure?Kribbeh 17:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Note: This is, essentially, an old conversation that I believe arose when some one moved the article from "shooting" to "massacre", though I may be wrong.  It does not appear to be an active topic, as it is no longer named a "massacre" - BalthCat 03:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, right. My mistake, sorry. Kribbeh 16:34, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Massacre? 

message: Could someone please update the French articles for the Montreal Metro stations from Lionel-Groulx to McGill for the shooting? Maybe even include it in the Green Line article, and the article of the Montreal Metro itself. Geo android 01:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think anything happened in the metro system; it was merely evacuated. I suppose it might warrant a quick blurb about the evacuation, but it doesn't make much of a difference. I'm a bit lazy right now, so if someone wants, just add something along these lines to the French articles: "Le 13 septembre 2006, les stations entre Lionel-Groulx et McGill étaient évacuées à cause d'une fusillade au collège Dawson." ♠ SG →Talk 01:27, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Montreal Metro 

message: http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/map-dawson-floorplan/
i changed two instances where the article said 'front' entrance. the de maisonneuve entrance is busy, and possibly considered a main entrance, but not front. useful for anybody checking over sequence of events in article. --  Denstat 05:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *You know, I just realized something. That map is from the Dawson floor plan. However, this plan is confusing the hell out of me. I can't seem to place anything on it, especially since the second floor plan is a bit different than the rest. I mean, I know my way around, I just can't seem to visualize anything on a map. ♠ SG →Talk 07:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Alrighty, here's my WIP of the map. I can't figure out how to draw the school plan properly, because I just can't visualize it. I'm pretty sure the placement of the cafeteria (#4) in the CBC version is incorrect. ♠ SG →Talk 08:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *initial reports (CBC Radio, loreen pindera) said gill entered the H wing from de maisonneuve, but what i don't know is since dawson is built on several levels, which floor that's on -- does one enter on the 2nd, or 3rd floor?  did he use the escalators or stay on one level? here's another map i found on the dawson site that shows the atrium and cafeteria, that suggests the caf is on the 3rd.  incidentally, point 4 of the cbc timeline says his time of self-inflicted gunshot was 12:48, so by deduction he only had approx. 7 minutes to get to the atrium from the door, and that's how long the rampage lasted. --  Denstat 08:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Most of the entrances are on the 2nd (main) floor. The first floor is actually "underground" in a sense, as it connects to the metro and shopping mall (via the metro corridor). That map is a lot more clear. It only takes about 30 seconds to get to the cafeteria from the entrance. ♠ SG →Talk 08:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Updated the map with a school plan. It needs to be redrawn manually, which I suppose I'll have to do later. For now, it should suffice. Anyone notice any errors in the map? If you do, pull it from the article page. ♠ SG →Talk 09:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *looks great to me. what about indicating there the caf and atrium are, since those words are in most sources? also, although it was apparently not a primary target, might be good to include the daycare building. --  Denstat 17:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *I note that someone has taken it upon themselves to change the descriptions of events in the map to be rude comments instead of what they should be, which is describing the actions of a crazed murderer who killed an innocent person.  The map under the discussion section is unaffected.  I'd change it back but I'm new to Wikipedia and unsure how do so.  Whoever did this should be ashamed of themselves. Trowland 17:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text: *Well, I've added two small notes (with arrows) about the cafeteria and the atrium (which has now been added, as it was missing from the image). ♠ SG →Talk 20:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *very nice -- good job. --  Denstat 06:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *hey  ♠ SG, can you verify whether the media have corrected the original Wood Avenue parking place of the killer to de Maisonneuve instead? the article is getting a little messy about that detail. thanks, if you have the time.  --  Denstat 02:45, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: CBC has a timeline with map

message: Wow!  736 edits in less than 36 hours.  And at the top of this page, some people were questioning whether it should be an article at all! 24.68.180.163 07:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And some people still do ask the same question.  Your point?  mdf 11:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Amazing 

message: Warrens cites closeness of dawson to jack layton's alma mater mcgill as his reason for upset -- but the two schools are 1.9 km apart according to google, and dawson didn't even move into its current location until 1988 -- was layton a mcgill student at that time? i don't see the relevance except that layton's a former montrealer, so please cite/clarify why this is a fact and not a sympathetic assumption. -- Denstat 08:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Layton himself said on TV that it "hit particularly close to home." He grew up in Hudson, which is just outside of Montreal. He later moved to Montreal to attend McGill. The relevance of the statement is to explain what he meant by "close to home." ♠ SG →Talk 08:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text: SG explained my thinking fairly accurately.  Adding to that, bear in mind that Layton is generally thought of as being from Toronto, owing to his many years working in the political machine in that city.  Readers familiar with Layton's career may not have known that he did actually grow up in the Montreal area, and so he does have a strong personal connection to the place. In other words, he isn't just giving some political double-talk.   -/- Warren 15:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: okay, but without a citation that he actually said these things in his official response, that can be taken care of by writing something like: "NDP Leader and former Montrealer Jack Layton mentioned that it "was a grim reminder of previous school shootings" and that it hit particularly close to home for him." definitely the proximity thing makes no sense, unless layton himself said it and then it would stand as his comment. and dawson and mcgill have no special affiliation that i've ever heard of -- that distinction used to belong to marianopolis and mcgill. --  Denstat 17:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved the citation closer to the quote.  The information I added is biographical in nature, as a way of lending some helpful context to the statement he made. The information can be found in the article on Layton himself.  Scholastic affiliation isn't the issue at hand -- Layton's personal connection to the city as someone who went to school there is what's significant.  Layton's been a professor so he feels it from that angle too, I'm sure.  (He mentioned as much in the official NDP press release).   -/- Warren 23:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Layton background unclear

message: i belive that the first injuries were at 12:41, as stated in this cbc article.
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/09/13/shots-dawson.html 72.58.29.218 19:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: TVA's helicopter reporter and other staff compiled this timeline -- if accurate, some details in the current article must change. did he really park at 12:41 on wood avenue, get the rifle out of the trunk, take a hostage, walk to the school, etc., and kill himself all by 12:48 EDT?? http://lcn.canoe.com/lcn/infos/regional/archives/2006/09/20060914-221128.html --  Denstat 07:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  timeframe 

message: I think we should consider semi-protecting the article sometime soon, its getting to a time where a lot of the edits by unregistered users is vandalism. Many of the facts are already out, so registered users can add them now. -- Reaper  X 22:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think this is something quite consistent with this at the moment, in that it seems a bit preemptive, and that the frequency is still comparatively managable. --HappyCamper 10:07, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Semi-protection

message: From "The National" CBC National Nightly News, 22h00 16 September 2006
* Victim student Meaghan Hennegan, shot in the lower arm and hip, did not need surgery. She was at the entrance to Dawson with her mother, Kathleen Dixon. Dixon felt the bullets whip by her head. Hennegan realized she was shot after she discovered she couldn't move her arm. Hennegan requires no surgery and is expected to make a complete recovery. 
70.51.9.229 04:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  victim 

message: From all news sources... CTV National Nightly News, CBC National Nightly News, SRC National Nightly News, NewsNet ongoing coverage, Newsworld ongoing coverage.
* Today, Friday 16 Sept 2006, faculty and staff returned to Dawson to learn how to comfort students come Monday.
* Blood is being cleaned up, and walls replastered to cover bullet holes
* Monday, students will return for counselling and to retreive personal items
* Tuesday, classes will resume.
70.51.9.229 04:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: it's also on the Dawson website, along with a letter from the director and help info. . --  Denstat 15:26, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dawson reopenning 

message: From 14 September 2006, 23h30 CTV CFCF Pulse Nightly News
* Khadr Kadhim was shot in the head and the leg, and is recouperating at Montreal General.
70.51.9.229 04:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  victim 

message: From CTV National Nightly News 23h00 16 September 2006
* James Santos and Alexandra Fernandez tried to negotiate with Kimveer Gill to help Anastacia De Sousa. Gill insulted Santos and tried to entice Santos to get closer. Santos believes Gill wished to use him as a shield.
70.51.9.229 04:35, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  heroism 

message: I had someone add :Image:Dawson-college-cp-1850805.jpg (which I uploaded) to this article once they found an appropriate licence for it in the early stages of this article's development. I've noticed that someone has gone and removed it now. Reasons? I could see someone removing it because they feel it is too graphic, but may I remind all that Wikipedia is NOT censored. I think this is an excellent image, and its graphic nature illustrates the horror of this event well. I request that this image is re-integrated back into the article, if it is free from objections, or I will take the liberty to do so myself in a couple days. -- Reaper  X 22:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By all means, add it back in. I don't know who removed it. My only issue would be with the fair use licensing, but since there is no real alternative, I'm sure it won't be a problem. ♠ SG →Talk 00:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: fwiw, i agree. --  Denstat 00:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it adds anything to the article and is needlessly graphic.  I don't think it's necessarily censorship to practice good taste.  --ElKevbo 01:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was run on newspaper front pages, so it would seem apropriate. 70.55.86.135 16:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

text: THe picture does not apply for fair-use. That is why I think it has been removed. I think it's better to be safe than sorry. We don't want to get Wikimedia in legal problems, do we? --Deenoe 00:42, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: CP Image

message: the article states three times that gill was shot in the arm then inflicted a gunshot to commit suicide -- could we cut this back to one, or maybe two instances? right now the 3 nearly identical statements appear in the intro, under Shooting, and then in Aftermath-Shooter. thanks. --  Denstat 01:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Shooter injuries, x 3?

message: CJAD AM-800 Saturday 16 Sept broadcast
* Stacy De Sousa`s funeral to be Wednesday 20 Sept 2006
* Memorial to de Sousa Sat 16 Sept 2006, her family did not attend the memorial which was held at a church on St. Zotique
70.51.9.4 05:53, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  funeral 

message: can someone integrate information from the sources for the second Wikinews article into the responses by politicians section? 70.51.9.4 06:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Governor General 

message: I dont think copy pasting the school's letter in a section of the article is not a good idea.. Maybe just put a link --Deenoe 14:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine by me I just started the section because the editor that added the letter had it placed under the Shooter section.L0b0t 15:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree.  I've removed it several times.  I'd be okay if someone wanted to summarize it in one or two setences.  But it doesn't really add anything new to the article at all.  I also object to using Wikipedia as a press organ for the institution (or any other organization).  --ElKevbo 15:30, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, didn't know it had been removed before. L0b0t 15:39, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem.  I hope the anonymous editor who keeps adding it back joins us to discuss the issue and work out something.  --ElKevbo 19:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  School's response 

message: I think some caution should be taken in posting any dialogue beteen student reps and admin.  They have a history of verbally attacking each other (see Dawson College).  The student reps' comments can be loaded in an attempt at scoring political points.  On a personal note, I can't imagine how the admin could have been assisting students when they had been unable to escape their offices (located down the hall from the shooter).  I am also told that some admin risked their lives by herding students towards their offices.Trapper 15:54, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Students and faculty 

message: Excuse me, but why is the first point (in the subarticle Aftermath) the shooter? Why not the victims? I think the victims is what people should care about, not the criminal! Just IMHO. Minkus 21:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Order of Subarticles 

message: Go to Talk:Place Alexis Nihon to have your say on whether the article Place Alexis Nihon should be moved to Plaza Alexis Nihon as proposed by another member. I've put it here since the centre is mentionned a lot in the Dawson affair and also mentionned on this article (The affair is also briefly mentionned on the Alexis Nihon article --JForget 18:03, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Place Alexis Nihon]] survey

message: I was reading the Montreal Gazette and I noticed that there are articles about arrests of teenagers that threathened to copy the Dawson shooting or like a Canadian was shoot in an American University (see Sept. 18 2006 newspaper in the Montreal Gazette). Should we add them as the result of the shooting or perhaps the "media frenzy" to cover such related stories?
Another thing is the different opinions between Canadians and Americans, politicians or otherwise, about the shooting. As far as I know, Canadians are more concerned about gun laws while American are more concerned about video games or blaming responsibility over something (I could be wrong about the Americans). Also, we should probably add the responses from communities related to the shooter like the gaming community...Jack Thompson, Goths, etc. A bit early to ask, but something worth to add. See the example from Columbine High School massacre.--Janarius 23:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: imho copycat shootings should have a place in Aftermath once more facts about them are established, although have the articles on the dusquesne shooting suggested that it was a copycat? i thought it was related to fan violence. as for your second point, the Kimveer Gill article has an external link to a message from Danny Ledonne, creator of the super columbine massacre RPG that could be added to Aftermath, say in a sentence or two. the responses are accumulating. --  Denstat 04:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestions to add 

message: Www.theaustralian.com provides an article titled, 'Ex-SAS chief backs video Diggers', which tells us that "a former SAS chief has defended Australian soldiers seen skylarking with weapons in videos posted on the Internet...images of Diggers parodying Arabs... ."  Perhaps conjecture should be made that an emulation strategy became deadly.   Also there was a small plane crash near the city of Montreal as a temporal incident. 01:23, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: you know, with a lot more practice, you might become funny. --  Denstat 06:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Try as I might, I cannot see how this is relevant whatsoever. What is the point of this? Kribbeh 16:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  parallel website activities 

message: I was revising the article's "see also" section and rewriting the Jan Wong section for poor syntax when someone else edited at the same time and deleted the dedicated Jan Wong section entirely.  I put it back in, revised, under "response" section because it seemed appropriate to put press/pundit repsonses in with video game community responses, etc.  Also, Wong has advanced a motive theory, which on its own may be worth keeping; and the controversy about Wong shows the killer's societal impact on Quebec goes beyond the killings themselves.  I think that, at least for the first year, this material should be kept. -- Lisasmall 22:02, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you've got the right idea, but that whole section has no sources, which doesn't bode well for its continued inclusion.  We can't be lax about this because we're talking about a living person.   -/- Warren 23:02, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added a reference. --Frescard 23:49, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Dozens of sources are at the main article, Quebec bashing#Jan Wong. We can transfer some of them if necessary. --Liberlogos 02:32, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jan Wong controversy - keep or delete? 

message: Why is Columbine listed under "See also"?  The only possible link I see is the video game and I don't see that as a particularly strong link.  Are we going to place a link to Columbine in every school shooting article from now on even if the link is tenuous at best?  --ElKevbo 01:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: so far the world sees the self-stylings of kimveer gill from his blog/gallery, and that he mimicked some elements of columbine -- the black trenchcoat, Trench nickname, admiration for harris & klebold, and the tenuous connection via the video game. although i don't trust his self-portrayal, obviously columbine was an event he emulated to some extent, and for that reason it deserves to be there. although as evidence emerges, it may make the columbine link weaker, if gill is found to be sick on his own terms, and not a belated columbine copycat. but your point is taken and this bears watching, imo. --  Denstat 06:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The connection should be explicit and derived from a published, cited source.  Otherwise it's original research.  --ElKevbo 06:39, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i wasn't the one who added it, and am not invested in this, but given the strong likelihood that anon users will add it back in constantly if abruptly removed for WP:OR, probably somebody should just find a source that draws parallels, to provide a citation, or post here in Talk how they could find no source. don't mistake my thinking for some kind of vigorous defense of the material. the 'obvious' is not encyclopaedic. :) --  Denstat 19:55, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I went ahead and removed Columbine and the other school shootings from the "See also" section of the article.  I could find no cited, verifiable link between the incidents other than they were all school shootings.  There are already several related categories and that is the proper way to link these incidents.  --ElKevbo 19:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: See also: Columbine?

message: I suggest making a section about the great job police offers did with handling this situation. They were praised for immediatly going into the school, putting their lives at risk, instead of waiting and "isolating the situation." like the police officers did at Columbine. They prevented many deaths at Montreal. (24 September 2006)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.129.30 (talk • contribs) .
:The quick response time was mentioned on CBC Newsworld, if nowhere else.  I recall something about the first officers being in the immediate vicinity when the shooting began.  Also there was the issue of new protocols in place to allow "zones" of safety declared so that rescue workers could go in without a 100% site safety requirement, or something to that effect.  - BalthCat 07:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Correction : The police was meters away when first shots were fired. I think the swiftness is mentionned in the article but it shouldnt have it's own section. It's normal for the police to answer fast : It wouldn't be to answer slowly, like at Polytechnique. --Deenoe 16:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I said immediate vicinity, that's not a correction... and there's still the issue of the changed protocols for rescue workers. - BalthCat 19:26, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  police swiftness 

message: Has the identity of the second victim in a coma been released yet, or do we know why the name's been kept a secret? Kribbeh 17:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Identity?