Talk:Dancehall

message: rather than making an edit that'll be undone without checking it, i'm posting here- please be aware that the following segment is very poorly written, unsourced, and dealt with in the following section of the article.  for future reference, using words like "hence" and "cosmology" don't give credence to an otherwise unjustified (and frankly, nonsense) train of thought.
"Dancehall is just short of being a movement, but does have the characteristics of a cosmology as it is a culture and a lens through which people see the world. This cosmology and cultural phenomenon carries with it a linguistic component. Terms such as "bun" in the Dancehall, which is Patois for "burn", do not carry with them a very literal understanding as it may in European cultures. Hence, phrases like "bun sodomites" will not mean, to literally burn sodomites, but function more as a line of dissent: it is an exaggeration used to indicate serious disapproval."  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.81.195.141 (talk) 04:03, August 23, 2007 (UTC) 
english please72.27.140.121 (talk) 21:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redundant Nonsense 

message: Reason for my edit of Dancehall:
* There was just too much unnecessary habitual, repetitive, berating of the subject of Jamaican journalists' negative view of the genera.  The point has already been made clear by the reference of Ian Boyne.  If anyone wishes to take this further please start a new article about Ian Boyne describing his views about Danchall.
* Again unnecessary and repetitive points of homophbia found in the music.  For example, one quarter of the article was about Peter Thatchell (gay activist).  Again if you want to go in depth about this, please start another article about Mr Thatchell detailing the resaults
* Lastly the socialist bit has to be verified.  If anyone has facts that will support this please make it available.
Thanks.
- Alister 00:43, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  11/22/04 Edit of Dancehall 

message: As far as I can see, the ragga article and the dancehall article do not say what's the difference between the two genres. To me it always seemed that dancehall is a more general term that also includes styles like lover rock and other modern reggae music without chatting/toasting/rapping. However, that doesn't seem to be the difference. But what is the difference then? I think it is the more general term, but if ragga is any kind of digital reggae, what is dancehall then? Maybe all modern reggae and not only reggae with digital production. Verify please. Wathiik 08:00, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a very good explication of the difference, you should put it on the dancehall page itself. be sure to emphasize that ragga is very much a regional term. Reggaedelgado 21:13, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Strident playing? I'm not sure what that refers to, but I do know that reggae songs don't really change tempo pasrt way through. And after 15 years in the business, I've never actually herad that term before... perhaps this refers to the "mix," where the song breaks down and all the instruments play the rhythm as opposed to the melody for a short period. (A popular example would be in the song here I come (broader than broadway) by barrington Levy). Reggaedelgado 15:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dancehall vs Ragga

message: FYAH BURN?
Sometimes it means "to purify" but not always
in Dancehall lyrics. Capleton is crazy about it,
but I prefer Morgan Heritage`s usage as a spiritual
purifier.
Good Fyah burn contraversy article
http://www.jahworks.org/music/features/fire_burn.html
Dancehall is a slackness music - similar to hip hop
and no matter how Rastafari they look, Sizzla,
Capleton, Buju ... are not and never will be ROOTS
REGGAE artists, and they just used Rasta talk to
boost records sells. Comapare Buju`s Boom Boom
to his Hills & Walleys. 
There is a "roots revival" or "roots dancehall" movement
present in artists like Luciano, Bushman, Turbulence ...
a movement which started with late Garnett Silk.
Dancehall is generaly all about the girls, dance and
anti-gay. But you should include such cultural
events as Dancehall Queen competition and new
dances presented on "How Fi Dance Reggae DVD" 
www.howfidancereggae.com
As far as I can hear ragga is more different DJ-styla
like singjay oposed to dancehalls hard toasting of Beenie 
Man and more social consciouss. Listen Macka B or
Gentleman compared to Beenie Man or Elephant Man.
Also ragga seems to be more influenced on
old roots reggae and DnB rhytms while dancehall
rhytms are more digital, heavy bass and hip-hop like.
To be more precious, dancehall DJ-style and rhytm
created HIP HOP (See DJ Kool Herc page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool_DJ_Herc
There is much schovinism, both male and female,
but girl singers like Cecile, Lady Saw and Tanya
Stephens tends to be more consciousness and talking
in favour of girls in conservative society.
Sizzla, Capleton and Buju are quite violent
on stage and in real life. Sizzla was several
times accused for having illegal firearms,
calling on killing ALL white people (`all
white subjects out of Africa in his lyrics`.
Gay lobbies are aware of this and have translated
his lyrics from Patois which is reason of many
unpleasent things for whole dancehall community.
See www.outrage.com
Sean Paul is notably the most popular (but
doesn`t mean the best) Dancehall DJ (note:
DiskJockey is original name for Toaster,
not MC) which has boosted a lot of popular
riddims on charts (Suprise Riddim, Buzz Riddim ...)
altough other artists had better works. Similar
is with Nina Sky and Coolie Dance Riddim,
today remembered as "Move Ya Body".
Sean Paul www.seanpaul.net
Dancehall is completely Riddim Driven
thing without artists as composers,
which is not the case with roots reggae.
:I would most strongly disagree with your last statement... First of all "Riddim Driven" is the name of a sly and robbie album, fraturing a number of what would be considered "roots" artists. Secondly, current artists remain composers just as much as older artists. The musical scores (to use fancy talk) were always created by the band or even more frequently just re-versions of older, established riddims. Artists (I assume you mean singers) frequently contributed nothing but their own voice (sometimes original lyrics and tunes, sometimes not) and as early as the 70s did so in the studio over recorded music tracks (usually artist after artist using the same pre-recorded riddim track).  Lastly, to say that moder producers are not artists is rediculous, it would mean that only roughly 20% of modern music involved artists at all! Reggaedelgado 08:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dancehall facts 

message: ... Or record companies.
TROJAN is not a good example.
They mostly replublish old good roots reggae
The VP Records is the home for mostly dancehall
and most of good new roots reggae.
www.vprecords.com
May Jah Bless You
Listen to the roots, not to the slackness.
--Rastavox 00:19, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Labels 

message: Eh? Since when? Says who? By what classification? In other words, what's the source for this? Hairouna 01:09, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a an old argument that will scarcely be settled here. Good point though – however, the best we can do vis-à-vis the eternal schism between those who say dancehall is a sub-genre of reggae and those who refute it, is to explicate the schism in this article. --Ezeu 01:25, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dancehall a Type of Reggae? 

message: I put a merge suggestion on this because there seems to be some desire for it amongst editors, and because the "difference" between the two is not clearly explicated in either article (and it certainly should be). perhaps the two articles could merely be improved to the point where they made reference to each other and yet retained explicit differences, but right now I don't think that they do. Any takers? Reggaedelgado 06:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  merge? 

message: I think this article needs several changes. 1) Explanation that the terms "bashment" and "raggamuffin" are european in origin. These terms are not used in jamaica. 2) The section that claims there are 2 high points in dancehall music is highly subjective and should be removed. --Selector rebellion 16:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Needed Changes

message: "Musically, dancehall has a very basic, almost caveman rhythm that allows it to embrace a wide variety of melodies, musical styles and instrumentation. On the diwali rhythm Wayne Wonder can croon the ballad "No Turning Back" and beside it, a deejay can chant "Meet Me At The Party", which is a straight dance tune. This quality makes dancehall more versatile than reggae." 
Seriously, who wrote the above? Caveman rhythm? Have you ever met a caveman before? This section is rediculous and I am removing it. --Selector rebellion 05:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More Needed Changes

message: So, I re-added the clean-up tag, because I think it is appropriate for a number of reasons. First of all, itis evident that we have a clash of various points of view/opinions/philosophies of dancehall, and the way that is currently expressed makes for a very disjointed article. Are we talking about a style of music? Or do we really want to try to explain it as a philosophy? Personally, I think we should focus on it as a style of music, as dynamic as that is. Certainly we should allude to the "cosmology" of the scene and its status as a "movement," but this should all be done as a coherent whole. It currently reads almost like a point-counterpoint article, which is not that cool. 
Secondly, there seems to be no consensus as to dancehall's relation to reggae—I see it as entirely a sub-style of reggae, but I know that many roots adherents do not. Further we (and the reggae world, perhaps) needs to decide how we wish to deal with the proliferation of roots songs released on current (albeit more traditional) digital riddims. 
Thirdly, re: my earlier wishes to merge, we need to deal with the fact that there is a ragga article and a dancehall article, with no explication either place what the difference is (I'm not asserting that there is one, but the fact that we have two articles necesitates a differentiation, right?)
My only suggestion is that we discuss these matters here, then edit the article appropriately. I think that the article currenty addresses all it needs to address, but it does so in a very disjointed manner, and we seem to be editing/adding what we see needed without payiing attention to the article as a whole. Reggaedelgado 08:33, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  clean up/nice up! 

message: The article is biased in favor of Dancehall. Philosophical discussions of the "spirit" of the music don't belong. It should suffice to say that there is a disagreement over whether certain homophobic and misogynistic lyrics are serious directives or bragadocious allegory.Anthony717 06:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bias

message: "On a broader scale it is this need to stand out, to be individually successful and accomplished that is the basis for Capitalism, an obvious western system of belief. The need for one to be “different” and to be a superstar, as opposed to merely being a talented, is a relatively new phenomenon which can be said to have started with western celebrities and rock stars."
Is this article really a place for someone to put extracts from the paper they wrote for their sophomore philosophy class with the Marxist professor?
GeneCallahan (talk) 12:49, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marxist Piffle 

message: While we all know that dances in Jamaica have been going on since at least the 50s, this doesn't make the 1950s the origin of the Dancehall genre. Plenty of sources support this view. 
Some dancehall lyrics have been violently anti-gay, including "Boom Bye Bye". This is not a 'misunderstanding' and no sources have been put forward that support this interpretation. 
If you feel the article is wrong, please discuss it here and gain consensus before changing it again. Thank you.--Michig (talk) 21:11, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin, and 'misunderstood' anti-gay lyrics 

message: The reference CLEARLY supports the topic. Dancehall music is also knoiwn as Deejay music where the singer deejays or what other would call MCing or rapping. Deejaying aka MCing has been done in Jamaica since the late 1950s. All references support the topic.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Realwords101 (talk • contribs) 
:The reference does not state that Count Machuki originated Dancehall in the 1950s. Are you not aware that the original dancehall records were by singers such as Sugar Minott? Deejays dominated dancehall reggae some time later, but there have always also been singers. Dancehall is not the same thing as deejaying. I would recommend that you get hold of a decent book on reggae, such as The Rough Guide to Reggae and have a read of it before editing further.--Michig (talk) 06:37, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If you actually read the two sources that you say support your claim, the first is a section about deejaying, not about dancehall. The second states that Machuki was the originator of deejaying, and doesn't mention dancehall. The Rough Guide to Reggae has a whole chapter devoted to Dancehall, and begins by stating that Dancehall originated in the late 1970s. You might also like to read one of the books that you cited along the way, This is Reggae Music by Lloyd Bradley, which talks about the late 1970s and early 1980s and states "Dancehall reggae was the backlash from those apparently left behind by roots's internationalization". --Michig (talk) 06:52, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  reference does support 

message: I am not familiar with this topic, but it appears that  is acting against concensus, according to what I have read here.
Here is what I am going to do:
# I am going to revert Realwords101's latest changes, as these appear to be against the concensus. Please note that this does not mean that I support other versions, or that I think that Realwords101's version is wrong.
# I am going to fully protect this article for 1 week.
# You should then discuss what you want the final version of this article to be. I would suggest that you leave messages at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Reggae, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music genres and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject African diaspora, so that a full discussion can involve all the relevant projects. You might also want to start a Request for Comments.
After a week, myself (or any other uninvolved admins) can review the discussion, and see if a consensus has developed.
May I just reinforce the point that I do not regard either the previous version or Realwords101's version as correct or incorrect - I am merely reverting to the version which consensus currently favours - but concensus can change - you need to decide whether it should or not. -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 13:35, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Note that you haven't reverted his edits yet. Could you maybe also check that each opinion expressed here comes from a different person? Thanks.--Michig (talk) 16:54, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for reminding me - I'd said that I'd do it, then forgot! I have now reverted the article to the last consensus-based version. I am also keeping an eye on what is said here, and if there is a cause for concern, it will be reported at the appropriate venue. -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 17:03, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit Warring on this article 

message: I am a person who experienced this subject. I have provided reliable references to my edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Realwords101 (talk • contribs) 14:15, 29 April 2010
:No you haven't.--Michig (talk) 16:51, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  I provided reliable References 

message: There should be an explaination for why Jamaica has those type of songs. To only have one side on the issue is very WRONG. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14:48, 29 April 2010 (talk) 96.252.42.5
:So find some sources.--Michig (talk) 17:25, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the issue of the gay subject 

message: Ok, I find it somewhat ridiculous that sourced content has to be justified against conflicting content for which no reliable sources have been provided, but here's some evidence for Dancehall being a genre that started in the 1970s, and not being synonymous with deejaying:
*Thompson, Dave (2002) Reggae & Caribbean Music, Backbeat Books, , p. 85-90. Section  "Dance Hall": this opens with "The dance hall movement which commenced in the late 1970s was the sound of the Jamaican music industry taking control of its own destiny once again, after the increasingly internationally-oriented adventures of the decade." and "Sugar Minott is generally credited as the artist who first hit upon the most obvious solution to this growing dissatisfaction..."
*Barrow, Steve & Dalton, Peter (1998) Reggae: The Rough Guide, Rough Guides, , p. 229-269. A section on Dancehall which follows chronologically from prior chapters on Early Reggae, Roots Reggae, and Dub. From the opening paragraph: "As a generic term...'dancehall'...became widely used after the death of Bob Marley in 1981 and the decline in the volume of Rasta-inspired Roots records...even a cursory listen to what was being produced in the Kingston studios of the late 1970s shows this to be false." "But what became different in the dancehall period - roughly 1979-85 - was the degree of influence of live dancehall styles exterted on what was appearing on vinyl. And this was demonstrated not just on deejay records...but on a new generation of singers."
*Foster, Chuck (1999) Roots Rock Reggae, Billboard Books, , p. 157: "The real key to what constitutes dancehall and what doesn't is not the artists but the producers. As the eighties dawned, one who moved to the head of the class was Henry "Junjo" Lawes."
Now lets see some sources that state that dancehall = deejaying, and that the dancehall genre was originated in the 1950s by Count Machuki. Oh, and please note that you need to find sources that actually state this, not just Google results that contain two words somewhere in the book. And if anyone uses multiple accounts to try to disrupt the discussion, you can expect to be blocked from editing. Go.--Michig (talk) 17:19, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The Origins of Dancehall is in late mid 70's DUB. Its actually dub stripped back and taken to mainstream with lyrics added back as a main component. Dub can be seen as similar to Psychedelic music, as it was seen as a experimental rock music, and was started in the late 60's/early 70's. Most was called reggage, dub tuerm used mostly by musicians studio people, until Dancehall was labelled separately in the later 80's.Starbwoy (talk) 17:17, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is dancehall reggae a genre that originated in the 1970s or the 1950s, and is it synonymous with deejaying? 

message: No where in the article does it state other caribbean islands from the years 1930 -1980  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Realwords101 (talk • contribs) 11:09, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  I changed Caribbean to Jamaican 

message: I Changed Kingston to West Kingston where Dancehall actually started. There are many sections of Kingston and Dancehall started in West Kingston.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Realwords101 (talk • contribs) 22:17, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changed Kingston to West Kingston where Dancehall actually started.  

message: Dancehall is a name that started when people from the inner city of Kingston, Jamaica gathered  after world war 2. It was the beginning of the sound system that would play a major roll in the musical genre called Dancehall. When poor Jamaicans were not able to participate in dances uptown.--Realwords101 (talk) 20:57, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing date on cultural origins 

message: Given the creativity of Jamaicans (artistes, dancers specifically) I believe a good add to this article would be a complete (or close to it) list of fad dances that have originated out of the music. Many come to mind readily and although a few are already listed in the article I believe an infobox with the dance move, originator and year would be very useful. What do you think? I've already started to gather a list so please let me know.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Legally Sher (talk • contribs) 01:03, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have citations to back them up, a few of the major dances may be okay. There have been dozens or even hundreds of dancehall dances which have originated over the years, so I think it would get messy to try list them all. You may consider creating a separate List of Dancehall Dances article, or something like that.--Chimino (talk) 14:02, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dancehall Dance Moves 

message: I think this articles lacks information on the modern dancehall.. For example, "VP Records dominates the dancehall music market with Sean Paul, Elephant Man, and Buju Banton. VP often has partnered with major record labels like Atlantic and Island in an attempt to further expand their distribution potential particularly in the US market."
Buju Banton is currently jailed and no longer releasing tracks..
There is no reference to the great Vybz Kartel or any other modern acts.
Also new on the scene is Gothic Dancehall, there is no mention of any of these topics in the article...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by ReivaxVendetta (talk • contribs) 16:22, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updates Needed: Gothic Dancehall and Does VP Records still dominate? 

message: While I am far from an expert, I've listened to this music since early in its history.  The "Culture" section seems to be the opinions of one or two people, in fact it seems to be someone's idea of what Dancehall ought to be.  The section is a classic example of the Wiki problem of "all you have to do is put a reference to a book and of course it's a fact".  The section seems to want Dancehall to be more like Roots.  I suggest that the whole section be deleted, but I've learned to leave such things to people who are more involved with the pages in question.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.122.66.138 (talk) 22:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Culture section seems to be opinion 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Rocker T?  Eh?  Never heard of him, and neither has anyone else I have asked (all have been listening to reggae/dancehall music for several decades).
Why is this dude's name amongst the notables mentioned here?
This Rocker T fellow's name clearly seems to have been inserted by a CHANCER.  Could someone please edit it out.
Thank you.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by AllToknow (talk • contribs) 19:51, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: He isn't particularly well known, doesn't fit the description of artists in that section and isn't mentioned in any of the sources I have, so I have removed him. --Michig (talk) 20:02, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conscious ragga - Rocker T 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Anduwaley Marson Smith , known professionally as Shabba Duwaley, and often referred to as Shabba D, is an dancehall artist , singer and songwriter. Born and raised in Palmers Cross, Clarendon, Jamaica spent most of his childhood in Palmers Cross, Clarendon, Jamaica. Wikipedia
Born: December 25, 1996 (age 21), Palmers Cross, Clarendon, Jamaica
Height: 1.72 m
Full name: Anduwaley Marson Smith
Genres: Dance hall , Gothic, Trap music,Reggae  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.27.64.210 (talk) 15:03, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anduwaley Marson Smith  

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