Talk:Asperger syndrome/Archive 3

message: Hi RN  this is Joe Mele of Aspies for Freedom.  I am very upset of some of your decisions. First I think the autistic comunity should have more of say than the NT community. It is very insulting to hear that autistics.org isnt high quality enough. It is the message that counts. It is also incorrect to autisticprideday.com merely a daughtersite of AFF cos it is truly a community effort.
Is there any opportuniy that we at AFF can have a dialogue with sysops over what has been happening? via email or IRC?
thanks
:Joe please don't edit my user page - also please discuss here. I think autistics.org may be able to stay but in order to remain a featured article we have to keep the number of links down in this article and limit them to only HIGH QUALITY links of major organizations/sites etc.. Also, why on earth would you want to get the sysops involved? You have not even attempted to contact me before this. --Ryan Norton T | @ | C 16:59, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Joe, please stop injecting all those links into the page - at the very least they completely mess up the formatting there.  Please discuss with me which sites you think should be included, or at the very least put a few of the ones you think are very quality in the article without messing up the format there, thanks --Ryan Norton T | @ | C 17:09, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Joe, there is no "NT community". Despite what it sometimes seems like, there no gigantic rift between an "autistic community" and a "neurotypical community". Most "neurotypicals" are too busy with their own passions, drives and goals to even know there is an "autistic community" in the first place. Also, realize that the "autistic community" is made up of not much more than a smattering of individuals on the spectrum who either met on the Internet or, perhaps, through ASA or similar organizations. Most of this "autistic culture" is imported and emulated. I understand what's going on, because I used to be one of you guys, but then I grew out of it. Go walk out in the forest sometime and sit against a tree and admire the beauty of nature. Forget all about there being any sort of "autistic community" or how those gosh-darn neurotypicals are planning to oppress you. Then walk back into town, stop, take a deep breath, and see all the people in front of you going about their daily lives minding their own. The "autistic community" is a pile of crap. It really is. You don't need to fight for freedom and rights under the proud banner of the "autistic rights movement", which is an idea you got from the Internet. You already have the same freedom and rights we all have. It's all right, man. Just chill. Even though it may seem like it isn't sometimes, we're all just the same and just as different as they are. I understand where you're coming from, and it's a typical Aspie thought process, but it's flawed in the same ego-centered way that Tern's is. I still get trapped by my own isolated Aspie thought loops, too, but I've achieved a beautiful peace with the world. --24.94.57.93 09:00, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

text: That above comment was a great comment Ryan Norton T | @ | C 04:48, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I am sorry Ryan but you speak as an ignorant NT.  There is a difference between NTs and aspergians. That above is probaby tom from FAM. Just because he says he was one of us doesnt mean much. for one thing it is anonymous any troll can say that.  As far as this peace he found is such bunk. It sounds like the gibberish that comes from any recent convert to a religion. I expereinced many forms of harassment from NTs cos of my difference. And to be little it is to belittle me and the millions of other autistics who suffer it on a daily basis from NT prejudice. Ryan you dont walk in our shoes so please. There is a track record in human history of expunging differences. People were killing until recently for minor differences in skin color and religion. And in some places they still do. Can you imagine , the outrage and the indignantion of encountering people who have a different social instinct?? they are perceived are dumb, possibly rude, not right in the head. All very subtle. So Please Ryan Raise your consience and awareness. JoeMele 06:05, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Joe, I am not "Tom from FAM". I'm a nineteen year old college student with Asperger's Syndrome (and likely soon-to-be diagnosed ADHD) who went through the same phase you are in when I was in high school. Wanting to just fit in and "be normal" for once and for all, I tried as hard as I could to give off the appearance of being just another guy. I made it my highest priority in life, and my schoolwork suffered even more than it had before (my grades haven't been the same since I was put on Risperdal in 1997...nor have I). After I developed a new reputation as eccentric and "different", distinct from my reputation in high school as a loose cannon or as a mad boy genius in elementary school, I realized that it wasn't my wisest decision to deny my own condition. Yet, I don't go around waving "OMG AUTISTIK" to everyone. I know better than this. When you go around FIGHTING THE NEUROTYPIKKKAL POWER, people look at you like you're some kind of freak, or just laugh at you. This is not because they're ignorant neurotypicals hell-bent on repressing you. This is because your actions suggest that you are weird, stupid or insane, whatever might apply. It's not that hard to figure out, even if you're autistic. So stop perseverating over your supposed repression, and go smoke a bowl and chillax, brah. Plus, I'm doing just fine being the kooky guy I am. Yeah, there are people who think I'm an ass, but fuck 'em. And hey, I'm not a virgin. --DL --24.94.57.93 03:05, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

text: See the history of this page if you're curious what my answer is :) Ryan Norton T | @ | C 17:52, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Because you put a space before your entry - which tells the wikisoftware to monospace it (thus the box) Ryan Norton T | @ | C 06:21, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Thanks for responding Joe - if I was mean or something please disregard - its been a bit hectic on this page lately :). As for the links there before - the problem is that now since the this is up for removal it needs to conform to the newer standards for featured articles which are higher (I'd argue MUCH higher) than before and that includes keeping the links down to a reasonable level. I do say I emphathize with your cause (as do most editors here, I'd imagine) - also I had to evaluate each link and it really was not easy - so if you have any specific ones that you want to bring to my attention please do so.  As for now I think I'll add autistics.org back. --Ryan Norton T | @ | C 20:03, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

text: No offence, Joe, as it's clear your intentions are good, but this reads like you only read the first sentence or two of RN's previous reply. He addressed most of the points you made here before you made them! Are there specific links you feel should be added, and why? Keep in mind that this article could lose its Featured Article status if too many are included. 24.77.97.3 22:57, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Joe, please revert.  First of all, Wikipedia is not a soapbox for causes - second of all the site is in see also since there wikipedia page for it, and the autistic pride day link is not notable - please read wikipedia guidelines Ryan Norton T | @ | C 15:28, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

text: You don't understand - its already referenced from the AFF page here. If you really think it deserves inclusion here then please put it in see also, not external links. Thank you Ryan Norton T | @ | C 15:37, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

text: One more thing - please don't revert my changes on the rights movement page without reading my responses to Amy at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AmyNelson
first.  Thanks Ryan Norton T | @ | C 15:39, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joe Mele of Aspies for Freedom 

message: Like other conditions classified as Autism Spectrum Disorders, Asperger's syndrome is considered to be rather gender biased, with males comprising approximately 75 percent of the diagnoses. Some clinicians argue that females are more exposed to social situations and thus have more of a chance to learn to imitate the non-autistics and behave "normally", and therefore the actual incidence among females may be higher than these figures suggest.
more info that should probably be sourced, and should be narrowed down is considered to be rather gender biased should be changed to refer to who considers it, people with asperger's syndrome, doctors, researchers? Jtkiefer T | @ | C  ----- 20:59, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
:See above under "social exposure". I'll see if I can get that paper through my university library and maybe include more detail.
::Are both of those sections from the same source? Jtkiefer T | @ | C  ----- 02:25, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
:::I'm not sure what you mean. It's the same text from the article being discussed in both cases (albeit a reworded version in this case); I was surprised you started a new category for your comments instead of just putting them there.
If Asperger's is not neurobiological, then "actual incidence among females" is equivalent to the 25% figure, as learning to socialize effectively permanently removes any female who otherwise would have been AS from the AS pool (as via meeting the necessary criteria).  Only if it's neurobiological (or what have you) is the statement accurate. Except for (probably) the most inate socializing techniques (even this is possibly an unwarranted assumption) most social skills are learned, not genetic. 24.22.227.53 00:19, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  intro 

message: OK, this group has been putting the international asperger's year passage into every asperger-related article, which the group itself coined. The group itself does not seem notable - I mean the site itself is a yahoo group.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this.  I mean the history of the page
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asperger_Adults_of_Greater_Washington&action=history
is just Willardston who I'm guessing is the founder, and if so this probably breaches original research or vanity or something --Ryan Norton T | @ | C 03:04, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asperger Adults of Greater Washington notable? 

message: As mentioned earlier, this section is essentially covered better in the autism article... so I thought I'd refactor it to this:
===Possible causes and origins===
The causes and origins of Asperger's syndrome are an area of considerable debate and controversy. Current thought among most stipulates that the causes of Asperger's syndrome are the same as those of autism. Some disagree with this, however, and argue that Asperger's syndrome and autism are caused by different things. All of this happens while the broader debate over whether or not Asperger's and other conditions (such as ADHD) are part of the so-called autism spectrum continues. 
Amongst many competing theories for the cause of autism (and thus as many believe, Asperger's syndrome) are the underconnectivity theory developed by cognitive scientists at Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh, the extreme male brain theory by Simon Baron-Cohen, the pre-operational autism theory, the social construct theory, and genetics.
Some theories people argue more strongly for Asperger's syndrome than autism. It is sometimes argued that some particular theories play a bigger role in Asperger's syndrome, such as the social construct theory and genetics. However, this is an area of considerable controversy. 
comments welcome.... Ryan Norton T | @ | C 08:43, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I like it. But is "the lack of theory of mind (or mindblindness)" a theory for the cause? I thought it was a symptom. ManekiNeko | Talk 19:53, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal for possible causes and origins section 

message: The causes and origins of Asperger's syndrome are an area of considerable debate and controversy. Current thought among most stipulates that the causes of Asperger's syndrome are the same as those of autism. Some disagree with this, however, and argue that Asperger's syndrome and autism are caused by different things. All of this happens while the broader debate over whether or not Asperger's and other conditions (such as ADHD) are part of the so-called autism spectrum continues. 
Amongst many competing theories for the cause of autism (and thus as many believe, Asperger's syndrome) are the underconnectivity theory developed by cognitive scientists at Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh, the extreme male brain theory by Simon Baron-Cohen, the pre-operational autism theory, the social construct theory, and genetics.
Some theories people argue more strongly for Asperger's syndrome than autism. It is sometimes argued that some particular theories play a bigger role in Asperger's syndrome, such as the social construct theory and genetics. However, this is an area of considerable controversy. 
comments welcome.... Ryan Norton T | @ | C 08:43, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I like it. But is "the lack of theory of mind (or mindblindness)" a theory for the cause? I thought it was a symptom. ManekiNeko | Talk 19:53, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible causes and origins

message: There's really very little doubt that the anon editor adding and re-adding the link is Tern. Could someone please BLOCK this IP? Zora 02:44, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Any admins here? Please ban Tern's anon IP 

message: I have just done a number of edits, including but not limited to the material from the Ehlers & Gillberg study I promised about two weeks ago. The changes include:
* A new Prevalence section, including the old first paragraph. This is fairly short (three paragraphs total).
* Brief information on other criteria besides the DSM-IV version, and thus a renaming of that section.
* Adding a point many of the important writers on the subject consider significant on the "narrow but intense interests" front. I'm not entirely sure I agree with it, but it crops up so often in the literature that it definitely deserves to be mentioned.
* Adding the citation for Ehlers & Gillberg. Again. Who removed it? There has been at least one reference to that paper in the article for a while now.
Please let me know if anyone has any comments. Ryan, I'll have a closer look at your recent additions sometime soon as well.
PurplePlatypus 21:25, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks a lot PurplePlatypus - those edits are fantastic! I'll copyedit them when I have time  Ryan Norton T | @ | C 05:13, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Very nicely done, PurplePlatypus! ManekiNeko | Talk 23:26, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: It seems to me the material Barbara Shack recently added to the stuff on Einstein is very POV, but salvagable. Does someone who knows more of Einstein's biography than I do want to have a go at it?
I've had a quick look at this user's history because I thought, due to another edit of hers, that she might be another Tern sockpuppet. She clearly is no such thing, but she does share some of the same issues, though nowhere as bad (lots of clearly POV edits and a rather awkward writing style). Keep a lookout for any further edits from this user, though as a "keep an eye out for problems and fix them" thing rather than a "shoot first, ask questions later" thing. PurplePlatypus 23:25, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure why (well, I have a good hint, actually) but the user seems to want to try to prove that einstien et al. had asperger's and tends to lopside the evidence... so yes something to keep an eye on (same user that created the einstien whatever and autism page I talked about earlier). Also, List of persons with autism spectrum disorders has recently gone a bit nuts with people adding thier own favourite person in the speculated column (at least it says speculated know - before it said believed). Ryan Norton T | @ | C 01:02, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm... it appears that I just removed some of this very content. I basically started by wanting to fix typos and some awkward phrasing (how did we all let "austics" sit there for so long?), but as I looked at it, I realized that it wasn't just POV, it didn't fit the context. It just seemed out of place, so I removed it. I hope things don't get ugly about it -- Barbara, if you see this, please post here so we can all discuss ways to make this work. ManekiNeko | Talk 23:55, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shack edits on Einstein 

message: User:68.193.45.148 keeps deleting a paragraph about Thomas Sowell and the "Einstein Syndrome" without comment. I can see no reason to delete it -- it clearly serves the purpose of NPOV in this context. I have asked 68.193.45.148 to discuss this here on the talk page, but in the meantime, keep an eye out for this. ManekiNeko | Talk 20:40, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. I'll take a look over it in a sec and try to condense it a bit though. Great job on the article everyone :) Ryan Norton T | @ | C 21:15, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sowell paragraph