Talk:Bull and terrier

message: One should not deny or try to ignore or reject bull and terrier crosses whom are hunting dogs. Just about every working/hunting terrier you see today has bull-dog blood in them and the history and use of bull and terriers as hunting dogs should stop getting deleted from this article in my opinion. I am aware that this fact contradicts the direction and limited tone on this article as it is today, but maybe we can correct the tone so that it includes hunting bull and terriers too, rather than just trying to delete the fact that most hunting terriers are also bull and terrier crosses. Maybe we can work together to make a very good article.
If we cannot work together, or if some people just don't want to include the hunting bull and terrier crosses, then I will leave this article alone.Working terriers (talk) 13:36, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The English White Terrier was created in the 1850s at its earliest, and was first shown in 1864. The English White Terrier was used in the creation of the White "Bull Terrier", however, the English White Terrier was not bred to the Old English Bulldog but rather to Bull and Terrier's in-order to help create the White "Bull Terrier".   The Manchester Terrier itself is a relatively new breed that had been developed for the show ring in the middle to late 1800s. The Manchester Terrier is as different, if not more so, from the terriers of the 1700s and early 1800s as the modern English Bulldog differs from the Old English Bulldog. The list of terriers bred to the Old English Bulldog in-order to create Bull and Terrier crosses is perhaps endless, and so I have written that the Old English Bulldog was bred to a variety of terriers so that the article can include all of the crosses done between the Old English Bulldog and the Terrier.Working terriers (talk) 15:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The Bull and Terrier

message: The description of the Bull Terrier states that they are all "pure white" yet the page links to a photo of what is presumably a Bull Terrier and is not, in fact, white. Something's screwy here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.227.17.31 (talk) 04:44, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Odd 

message: The Pit Bull(APBT) was the progenitor of the Amstaff. The Bull and Terrier isn't the direct ancestor of the amstaff.191.35.65.100 (talk) 02:55, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Pit Bull(APBT) was the progenitor of the Amstaff 

message: The article has two citations using the website bulldoginformation.com. Please note that this is a self published monetized website by a single person who states no expertise in the area beyond (a) being a webmaster and (b) having "a passion for bulldogs".  It is probably not a reliable source per Wikipedia Verifiability and RS guidelines. Nomopbs (talk) 14:56, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Website bulldoginformation.com probably not RS 

message: Please see discussion at WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: Sources for the former names of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Cavalryman (talk) 02:58, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC: Sources for the former names of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier 

message: , I have asked you four times now, please can you confirm exactly what Dieter Fleig says and provide page numbers? Cavalryman (talk) 04:37, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The page # is in the citation with the date (1996:86), where it has been since you first asked me. BTW,  is an excellent citer cleaner-upper if my citations need work. BTW - another editor cited that book before me which is how I came across it - I didn't check to see which editor it was. I managed to find the material online and grabbed the page number for you - it may have been Amazon or another website, I can't remember. Their program won't let you keep going back to a book you already looked at - they want you purchase it. Do you have a copy of the book? If not, I can ask  to help us find one or maybe TWL can get us access. Later - it's 11:30 pm here, (and, what, around 4:10pm your time?) so you're just get started and I'm done for the day. Atsme 💬 📧 05:30, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: So confirm the page number is 86? The the middle of the chapter about the modern Bulldog? If you cannot verify the text how are you citing the book? Cavalryman (talk) 05:40, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Your demands are making me weary. How many more times do I have to repeat myself? Is Fleig even cited in this article? If you can't read the source in context, cite another source that you like better. While I'd be happy to discuss the pros and cons of sourcing/citations with you at a WikiCon or WikiMania, I really don't have time to do it here. I've done my part, so if you want more, go to the library and look it up - or buy the book. It is always better to read citations in context anyway. Oh, and it is not our job as volunteers to hand-hold our readers - we are not librarians. Atsme 💬 📧 20:38, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dieter Fleig 

message: According to the article, "The bull and terrier was never a bona fide breed"
It's also listed as extinct, with the reason being that it's not recognised by breeders and kennel clubs.
Clearly, a bulldog and a terrier, despite each being pedigreed, can mate and have puppies (assuming they aren't neutered/same-sex/too old/deformed/some other reason they can't besides speciation), to this very day.
So, if that could always happen and it can happen now, and if they aren't recognised by breeders and kennel clubs as a distinct breed, but also never were recognised by breeders and kennel clubs as a distinct breed, then how can they be "extinct"?
It's sort of like saying griffons and elves are extinct, since griffons and elves were never not-extinct. It's absurd to say. But it's also a bit like saying mules are extinct because they aren't a genuine equine species.
At the very least, if this is some other meaning of "extinct" with which this author is unfamiliar, the link in the term should not go back to the standard definition.2601:1C2:5000:1472:901E:6603:60F:DC1D (talk) 19:34, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: There was a long and detailed disagreement wherein a consensus was finally reached that a non-existent breed or mixed breed dog type cannot be extinct, just that the function certain mixed breed dogs once served became illegal. Modern breeders established kennel clubs, conformation dog shows and breed registries were founded.  I think the crux of the confusion was over 1800s dog-types, and the methods of naming those types of mixed breeds (of unknown origins) were typically based on the dog's function; thus bulldog and terrier. The references are now removed. Atsme 💬 📧 21:29, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doesn't extinction require having once been not extinct?