Talk:Kosovo/Archive 7

message: My opinion is that since both, Albanian and Serbian language are official in Kosovo, both names should be written. I do not have opinion whether Albanian or Serbian name should be written first (other users should discuss about that here). PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Both names could be used, but no "Metohija", as that is not recognized by any international body (besides Russian govt)Ilir pz 09:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: as this article is in English, I propose to use the English name only. So Kosovo only. I agree with ilir_pz about the Metohija part, which should not be used. Mark ma 09:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please note User:Mark ma is one of the suspected sockpuppets of Ilir_pz. Asterion 21:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Asterion getting frustrated? Does it irritate you that we Albanians are united for one cause more than ever in history? I will write under my name as long as I can, and it will always be Ilir, as that is my given birth-name. Ilir pz 00:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

text: we could use both names, but no "Kosovo and Metohija". that is not recognized by any international body and it is just the idea of serbian ultranationalism. it is absolutely not accepted by the ethnic albanians in Kosova or anywhere else! the international name or english name shouldn`t be Kosovo or Kosovo and Metohija, because that is the serbian name, and in Kosova almost 90 % of people are albanians, and they call it Kosova. I mean, we could use both names, and not just the serbian designation. that means: Kosova|Kosovo or Kosovo|Kosova is fair enough. --Mig11 09:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Problem 1: Serbian or Albanian name in infobox

message: I also do not have opinion which one of the two maps should be included, so, please post the arguments why one of them should be here instead of another. PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as the status is not defined, the map where Kosovo is within the map of SCG should NOT be used. Instead a compromise could be using a map where Kosovo is clearly seen in the map of Europe, but not as a part of SCG. No way! Ilir pz 09:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is better to have a map where people can see where Kosovo is located in Europe, and not be marked as a part of any country, as it is not. Let the status definitions clear that out later, even in the map. Below somewhere there could be a map showing the locations in Kosovo itself. Mark ma 09:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please note User:Mark ma is one of the suspected sockpuppets of Ilir_pz. Asterion 21:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: That is not true! The status of Kosova is not yet defined! And the name of the country is not Kosova and Metohija! You sound like people who had a brainwash by the serbian press agencys! I mean a little bit like Asterion. I agree in this point with Ilir pz and User:Mark ma: As long as the status is not defined, the map where Kosovo is within the map of SCG should NOT be used. --Mig11 09:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Problem 2: map in infobox

message: The dispute here is how status of Kosovo is currently defined, so please discuss this question here. PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: International interim administration in Kosovo, and as a result the govts that have installed it, referr to it as a "territory under UN administration". That is what it says in my travel document, that is how people send me mail "Kosovo(UNMIK)" etc. Ilir pz 09:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know Kosovo is a UN administered region, and not a part of any country. Let me know if I did not hear any status talks being concluded, and I've been asleep for a long time. Mark ma 09:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please note User:Mark ma is one of the suspected sockpuppets of Ilir_pz. Asterion 21:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: That is not true again! Kosova now is not part of any country. And the name Kosovo and Metohija exists just in the heads of Serbian ultranationalists and it should not be used here. Just like Ilir pz mentioned: in the travel documents it is written: "territory under UN administration" - UNMIK. That means now it is not under Serbian administration. You forgot about this phone dialing code: +377, it is used by the most people in Kosova, and guess what: it is not Serbia’s phone dialing code. --Mig11 09:50, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Problem 3: The preface part

message: Dear Dardanv and others. First of all you don't have to be anonymous, and you don't have to do ridiculous threats. We can do a "wiki-war" if you want, I don't want it. You know I'm from a country who stoped participate in wars 1814!!! Still your are provocative and an extremist which I think is because there is alot of missunderstanding and ethnic phobia. I don't belong to any side and I don't sympathize with any more then the NPOV side. Everybody should be heard and not denied. So common.. I hope we can bury ALL nationalism and hatred with Milošević, even from your side (and please don't deny that it exist). Kosovo is lost to Serbia now (is what I belive) and then anybody can have their thoughts about it. But the most important thing is that all could work for a better future (without nationalism) in the Balkans. The world is not better until it is done. I think you can contribute most, in your own country. So why not prove you are better then the Serb nationalists and teach and support the NPOV side? If you want to continue with adding Albanian extremism into other articels and reverting we can sadly continue. But I hope/wish/beg you not... many thanks Litany
:::Anyone has the power to ban irresponsible (read: people who do not discuss here first, and do not provide their neutral sources) who revert content all the time? Asterion keeps doing that, without reading what and why it was changed. Someone ban Asterion vandal!!! Ilir pz 00:40, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  1. Name should be Kosovo. 2. map should show where Kosovo is located in the region, but as it is not decided which country it belongs to, I don't think we should incorporate it in a map of Serbia. 4. We could check whether KLA is listed as a terrorist organization, and if yes, we list it as such in our article. (p.s. Don't check Serbian sourcs, please, let us keep neutral)
And to stress smth out to Litany, it is not a province of Serbia :), it is a territory under UN administration, as defined by UNMIK. Find one place in their official website  where they mention it being a province of Serbia, and then we can discuss further. Let us respect Kosovo institutions which were democratically elected, and edit the article accordingly. Ben uk 10:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please note User:Ben uk is one of the Suspected sockpuppets of Ilir pz. Asterion 21:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Frustrated Asterion again. You make my day:)Ilir pz 00:17, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure it is worth replying to Asterion, but I will. First, yes, we have the same opinion with ilir_pz and many more, on the issues mentioned above. Eventually, if status negotiations fail, I will prove to you that 99% of Albanians in Kosova will share my view, with a referendum. That will shut the mouth to all those who don't want to see Kosova prosper. And as of your suspicion, based on using smileys, can't say much. Smileys have been around for a long time. And wide smileys, too, like the one I get when reading your frustrated comments :)))))). Ben uk 10:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

text: That is ok, PANONIAN, but when it comes to mentioning cities and locations of Kosovo, I suggest we use the double-naming system (Alb/Sr), as it is not fair using the Serbian notation and say "it is English". Do we also agree to remove any comments which are not unsigned? best,Ben uk 10:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone has the power to ban irresponsible (read: people who do not discuss here first, and do not provide their neutral sources) who revert content all the time? Asterion keeps doing that, without reading what and why it was changed. Someone ban Asterion vandal!!! Ilir pz 00:40, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

text: But PANONIAN is it against the rules to just drop a line, without signing it as well? I think such lines should be discarded. Let me know which rule precedes which, as I am not familiar. Regarding the possible solutions to Kosovo status I can tell you that there is only ONE solution, that is full independence for Kosovo, with securing rights for the minorities. Kosova used to be in a quazi federation, which did not work well. What makes you think Kosova that comprises a population of more than 90% non-slavic want to be in a confederation with Serbia and Montenegro, whereas other ex-YU republics which are mainly slavic ones seceded already? Regarding naming of cities, it is not the worst thing to have a double naming system. At least until Kosovo administration decides about that in the future. Resolution 1244 does NOT mention Serbia and Montenegro ANYWHERE, as that country did not exist back then :). Official languages in Kosovo have always been Albanian, and Serbian, and even Turkish. We had a triple naming system of cities, which is the case even now in the streets of Kosovo. So state language cannot be only serbian. No way.Ilir pz 22:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As of population being the same number of albanians and serbs, please check page 46 of this book . It is a non-Albanian writer, and the sources he mentions are diverse. Please give me some more credible sources than serbian census of that year, which of course was made by whom??? OSCE-like organisation? of course not. Thank you, Ilir pz 16:02, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Gianni, albanians did not ask for independence out of pure wish, they were forced to do so. I do not think Switzerland or Italy are going to fill their rivers with trucks loaded with killed Albanian elder and women and children, nor open mass graves close to Alps´ slopes with hundreds of bodies of innocents. So don´t compare it unnecesarily with your example. As of reasons why population changed, that I have tried to explain to you several times. Besides low natality rate of Serbs, economical reasons drove them to move away to a more developed region such as Belgrade etc. Kosovo Serbs will have to get used that the majority is going to rule from 1999 and on. It will be tough for them, as they were overpriviledged during years of Serbian installed regimes in Kosovo, but with time they will get used to it. if not, none can stop them from relocating where they feel more confident. As of 1244, that is of temporar nature. Many have stressed out, even the UN admin in Kosovo, that there will be a new Sec.Council resolution soon. I agree to keep it there, as it will soon be a part of recent history of Kosovo. Ilir pz 15:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Not sure of any evidence trucks were loaded with Serbian civilian bodies and put on the riverbed of any rivers in Kosova, or Albania. Nevertheless, I do not approve of any killing or any oppression. Answering to you why Kosovo should be independent, I could only give you a link for a brief explanation. It is a person I share my view with, and explains it quite clear . Reasons people move are diverse as I said. I am not sure of any special programme by Academy of Science and arts of Kosova to drive Goranis or Serbs out, like the document I pinpointed to you above, and which of course you did not read. Try to read a bit and then ask questions, not just pose questions like "why should Kosovo be independent". Not sure how difficult it should be to understand why. And to those that give me the "The second Albanian state should not be formed" I give you a simple answer: Austria, Germany, and Switzerland can, France, Switzerland, and Belgium can. Kosovo can and will become independent, and of course rights of minirities will be respected. This shall not mean the killers among those minorities can return. NEVER. Their place is in jails, and then die there alone just like Milosevic.  Ilir pz 19:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh my god, could not help notice the "Albanians were always privileged under Tito's regime", Gianni. It really makes me feel bad that I am wasting my time replying to you, you seem to not know anything about the recent past of Yugoslavia, and Kosovo's situation in it. First of all, Kosovo, with 90% of its population being non-Slavic (like the rest of ex-YU were) was deprived of the status of a Republic. Population-wise it had much more than Monenegro, but still. Intellectuals were persecuted and killed by the secret service of ex-Yug. Patriotic families were harrassed and made to flee Kosovo. Kosovo remained the most undeveloped part of ex-Yug (read: the least investments from the shared Federal fund), and Serbia sucked from it lots of minerals and coal from its rich underground. Want more? I will not give YOU more, until you read something and tell me what you read, and where you got the questions from. Hope you learned something for today (at least)Ilir pz 19:25, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Compromise

message: I think we should agree that the status talks held in Vienna now are between the delegations of two democratically elected governments, that of Serbia and Kosova. user: Asterion is reverting that part continuously. Serbian govt is not talking to Albanian "people" randomly selected in the streets of Kosovo, but those are ministers, heads or members of political parties of Kosovo. Opinion (for now, Asterions not) needed. And please, if you are not from Kosovo, and base your arguments on your life experience IN KOSOVO, then try to prove why you think what you´re saying is so, as it is not fair anyone from Andalusia or Chile to come and drop opinions here. This is a sensitive issue, and I ask for more understanding from non-Kosovo citizens. Thank you, Ilir pz 15:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Preface (negotiations part) 

message: It is nice that progress was made regarding preface part and infobox. Now please, Ilir pz and Gianni ita, you should not discuss here whether Kosovo should be independent or not, but concrete disputes about article. So, please tell me what are the other disputed parts of the article, since I see that nobody reverting it now. As for the names of the articles about Kosovo cities, I just said my opinion how they should be named at the present moment, but I really do not care whether names of these articles would be in Serbian or Albanian. So, Ilir pz, it is not me with whom you should to argue about that. PANONIAN (talk) 03:15, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Progress 

message: Panonian, I didn't even notice the new version of the article because of constant arguing with Ilir.
This article is a lot better than the previous one. Whoever wrote it did a good job to represent both Serbian and Albanian Kosovar side.
The only two things that I disapprove of are:
1. In 1912 during the Balkan Wars, Kosovo and Albania were conquered by Serbia while eastern part of Kosovo was captured by Montenegro. Serbia aimed at ethnically cleansing Kosovo of its Albanian population....    Following this document, expulsion of Albanians from Kosovo took place in the next decades, ending up with the Milosevic era.
The expulsion did happen in the 1912, but it didn't continue until 1999. Those were two waves, not a continous one. In the meawhile there were also waves of expulsion of Serbian population, as you mentioned. 
Gianni ita 19:08, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This must be the only expulsion in recorded history which increased the size of expelled population fifthfold. Nikola 23:09, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Blame it on the determination of Albanians not to allow Serbian chauvinistic plans to work...and their healthy natality rate, of course :)))))))So many actions, check, and they all failed. Gotta love my nation, we never lost our hopes. My respect to my loving nation. Regards,Ilir pz 00:14, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you carefully check the course of events, and actions by every Serbian leader in Kosovo you can clearly see that those actions are completely in accordance with that document. And the last expulsion attempt by Milosevic was the worst case scenario, or the best according to that plan. Luckily this time Albanians had the support of the democratic world countries that did not allow that to happen. Ben uk 18:21, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Milosevic was not the leader of Kosovo, but he did what he did there. I did not say Serbian leaders, as in leader of Kosovo. Hope you got the message. I see that you are trying to recruit people to explain history to "siptarima" all over wiki. good luck with that. You're quite confident with your facts. Having lots of fun. Unfortunately serbian propaganda did a great job, so many brainwashed people. That is another factor why Kosovo should become independent, lol. Ben uk 00:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The main targets of KLA were the occupatory Serbian military. As in every war conflict, where outlaws are incorporated, I don't exclude the posibility any individual might have attacked civillians. I condemn those strongly. Let us not forget that in the Serbian troops there were Arkan, Frenki, and all sorts of paramilitary groups, furthermore they were financed by the secret service of the Serbian state. Ben uk 18:21, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Frenki was not in Kosovo? oh well. I am sure you have facts. One of my good friends of my childhood had been captured by one of his gangs and I never got to see him again. I do have a fact, his family recognized them. You are not convincing at all gianni. And yes, you are VERY neutral, killing me with that. By saying you hate all the leaders of ex-YUG republics and Kosovo leaders doesn't make you any neutral. KLA, financed by mafia...well for serbs all Albanians were terrorists anyways. I am just wasting my precious time explaining to youBen uk 00:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How related is it talking about Croats or Serbs rebuilding Vukovar to what we are dicussing here? lol Ben uk 18:21, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Dear Asterion or Gianni_ita (I don't know who I am talking to because you both seem to be sockpuppets of each other) Sorry but I did not see anyone saying Kosovo govt was the only one to have ever done that. This discussion page is way to long, did not catch that part. Anyways it is irrelevant to anything we are talking about hereBen uk 00:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

text: What: to leave Kosova to Serbia? Frenki was not in Kosovo? Gianni ita, you are trying to be neutral? I mean, in which planet are you living and is there any oxygen, because it looks like your brain needs some oxygen immediately! You are a clear case of Serbian brainwashing. Kosova should and it will be independent, whether you like it or not.--Mig11 10:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A lot more neutral article 

message: This discussion page is way to long, how about moving it to an archive? suggestions appreciated! Ben uk 00:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving discussion page to archive 

message: 1. I added Serbian theory that they are the descendants of Illyrians, although I think that it is very unlikely.
2. I added that Albanians voted on the 12. of january 1992. for the independence of one part of Macedonia
3. I added that during the protests, not Kosovar, but kosovar albanian students were asking for the independence of kosovo.
4. I deleted the part which mentioned continous expelling of Albanians since 1912. that was a big lie.
5. I changed the description of the KLA the way it should be described, and I added that Serbian forces killed way more innocent people than the KLA.
Tell me what you think of the changes!
Gianni ita 20:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One out of 5 changes you made is ok, the rest are very biased and by no means reflect the reality. First of all, they are not backed by any source AT ALL. 1. why do you add something you think it is unlikely? is that smart? 2. Have you found a source to back that claim?? 3. I like that change. 4. There is that source which you should read first, and then say it was a lie. 5. Comparing KLA to the paramilitary death squads is ridiculous. It is true that very few from KLA did horrible things, but they were far less in number and much less directed by any higher authority, whereas Serbian paramilitary troops were trained by JSO, and all sorts of military and special police units. 
Above all, DISCUSS SOMETHING FIRST, and then if majority of us agrees (just like majority will decide about the status of Kosovo, as Contact Group last meeting confirmed , I will quote for you "Ministers look to Belgrade to bear in mind that the settlement needs, inter alia, to be acceptable to the people of Kosovo. "). Only then can you wish us to have a nice weekend. Ben uk 21:34, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ilir / Ben uk / Mark ma or whatever alias you go by now. You do not own the article on Kosovo and you know that. Stop calling people vandals simply because we are trying to put the article in order and remove some of its heavy ALbanian extremist bias. Also, please learn some geography, as Andalusia is not in Chile, my friend. I really love your logic too: we are neither Serbian not Albanian, hence not "allowed" to discuss the subject but Serbs are not "allowed" to edit the article either. Got to love your democracy at work! Whether you like it or not, the Kosovo article is not meant to be a UCK mouthpiece. Regards, Asterion 00:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Asterion, Litany, Gianni, or whoever you are. You are not trying to put the article in "order", you are just determined to defend serbian nationalism, and that means erase and change anything that Albanians contribute in the site. OF COURSE I can help you in that. I told you a long time ago, you cannot stop me. I am doing this for my country, and I will never get tired contributing. I never said Andalusia was in Chile, I just wanted you to understand (but blinded by serbian nationalism you seem to not be able to do that easily) that one person from andalusia OR Chile (read: who is not directly involved in the issue) should not just delete stuff. This article belongs to those whose country it is in question. I don't recall to have changed anything on the content of BRASIL or the Australia (check the comparison I make again). Oh another thing, I am NOT your friend. It is not democracy to not respect the main element of democracy: the right of Kosovo Albanians on self-determination. That applies to this article as well, we are the ones whom this article concerns the most. Oh and that sockpuppet campaign you have started, you are as ridiculous as one frustrated serbian nationalist can be. Answers to the stuff above: 1. Feel free to use serbian nationalism, just to refresh your memory, it caused 4 wars, and shrunk Serbia to where it is right now, and with a tendency to shrink further (as Radicals are getting more powerful). Use your nationalism elsewhere, Kosovo is lost for you once and for all. Realists in Serbia have long admitted that, I see it all over in comments of (rather normal) b92 news agency. 2. Just check what kind of source you are giving me. I did not say ANY source. Citing radicals or milosevic's sources is like not citing sources at all, but citing lies. All the world has found out that those are pure lies. 4. is as well not a neutral source, not at all. 5. hehe, just check what hits google returns for "kla drugs", like sprska-mreza, kosovo.com, heheeh very credible sources, impressive. Ilir pz 11:38, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Gianni ever wondered what a geocities website is? it is a free yahoo web page. Freely send an email to heartland@yahoo.com and you will get a mail back. So now if I make a website with www.geocities.com/gianni/kosovo.html and write there that "Kosovo belongs to Serbia" it is a credible source??? OH MY GOD!!!!Ben uk 10:24, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  These are the things that I added, deleted or changed 

message: Asterion/Gianni/Litany, whoever from you are reverting changes constantly, if you think anyone who doesn't share your opinion on Kosovo is a sockpuppet, then you've 2 million such in Kosova itself, and many more outside Kosovo. You are vandalising yourself, big time, by reverting changes, and instead try to accuse someone of sockpuppeting. You even went that far as you insulted by calling "cockpuppeting" . This only shows how frustrated you are with the fact that Kosovo will never be under Serbian rule again, and it will be an independent country sooner than you think. Good luck fighting 2 million "sockpuppets", lol. What was that "go back to LSE about", by the way?Ilir pz 13:25, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're under investigation by the Arbitration Committee. I will not comment on your behaviour till the CheckUser process is finalised. I kindly ask you to refrain from editing the evidence page and remove any tags from your user page(s) Asterion 15:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was suspected as being a sockpuppet by asterion, gianni, not by someone. And it is clearly a way to defend the nationalism he feels for serbs. It is not gonna work. You can keep calling whatever you wish. Ben uk 10:27, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sockpuppetry thing 

message: No, the article not only is not neutral, it is completely inaccurate from the beginning to the end. Some of the problems are:
* English translation of the official name of the province, Kosovo and Metohia, is not mentioned in the introduction.
* According to the introduction, Kosovo "is a territory in South Eastern Europe". We've been over this a thousand times. Kosovo is a part of SCG, period. SCG's constitution defines Kosovo as a province of Serbia, period. The end of any discussion about its status.
* Final status of Kosovo is not the subject of any dispute, but of political negotiations.
* Kosovo does not border Serbia; Kosovo is a part of Serbia. It can only border the rest of Serbia.
* I won't even try to read the history. It is overexpanded for the article anyway. A few things which did caught my eye however:
** Resettlement policies of Ottoman Empire are described as Serbian ethnic cleansing.
** The autonomy of Kosovo was never revoked, Albanian resistance was not peaceful, etc. etc.
** UNHCR did not estimated, but registered, 250,000 refugees and not 100,000. The number of Serbian refugees is reduced thrice, again and again, despite having multiple independent references (see Demographic_history_of_Kosovo) which confirm it.
* Information about name of Kosovo and its Slavic origin, including the map has mysteriously disappeared.
* So has the list of former official names. No, Kosovo was not called Kosovo and Metohia, ever.
* So has any link to Demographic history of Kosovo, which is one of the best referenced articles on entire Wikipedia.
* Cities are named using Albanian/Serbian name in total disrespect with any Wikipedia policies.
* The international community uses 'Kosovo/Kosova' to describe the province only in someone's wet dreams.
* UNMIK is not responsible with supervision of the government of Kosovo; UNMIK is responsible with governing Kosovo. It delegated some of its powers to the government.
* In external links, a book by Hugo Roth, is proudly listed as pro-Serb, obviously because Hugo is a Serb historian. But Radio Television of Kosova? No sir, it can't possibly be pro-Albanian.
So, I am adding warning header about disputed factual accuracy to the article, though it will be reverted without doubt.
And all the while, our revered editor ChrisO is dutifully watching over the article and probably dying of laughter. The lowest of low. Nikola 23:05, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No need to get frustrated and give us "periods" here, Nikola. "briefly"
* Kosovo and Metohia is a Serbian fabrication, thus in English it does not make sense to translate
* Kosovo, until its final status, independence de jure, is solved and made official, it is a territory in SEE. SCG constitution is as important as some rubish piece of paper in my trash can to 90% of Albanians and the Contact Group members. 
* Kosovo DOES border Serbia. We collect taxes, and verify documentation, and guard the border with Serbia. 
* As of Serbian ethnic cleansing extensive information here  
* Autonomy of Kosovo was not revoked? we just gave it up right? ridiculous. All know the truth. 
* Demographic history of Kosovo is a highly disputed article, read the references only, all Serbian. That article needs heavy reviewing and changing. 
* double naming system is the best way to reflect the naming of cities in a place where not all are of one nationality. It is a long gone period when in Kosova we had only cyrillic names everywhere, shops, cities, documents, etc. Kosova is a democratic country now, we are more civilized than that way of thinking you are predicating. 
* Americans and brits like "Kosova" naming, so for the sake of our dear friends who stopped the bloodshed, we should as well use it here. 
***UNMIK has (I am sure you've never seen this site) these duties, to: 
***perform basic civilian administrative functions;
***promote the establishment of substantial autonomy and self-government in Kosovo;
***facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status;
***coordinate humanitarian and disaster relief of all international agencies;
***support the reconstruction of key infrastructure;
***maintain civil law and order;
***promote human rights; and
***assure the safe and unimpeded return of all refugees and displaced persons to their homes in Kosovo.
***Of course the "total disputed" label of yours is your point of view, thus inaccurate. Sleep tight in your wet dreams(as you said) :))))))Ilir pz 00:05, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Factual accuracy 

message: So nobody wants to discuss before changing the content, right? perfect! :)))))) Ilir pz 09:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Something completely different is discussed, and some only revert other changes, that is why I am asking. best,Ilir pz 22:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we don't stick to the international documents and naming systems used by the international interim administration, I will keep reverting as I have no choice. None there says official name is Kosovo and metohija or whatever you call it. Double naming system is applied to every document they address. If you wanna write the claims of the serbian govt you have to make a completely new document, which is completely opposite to what the internationals and Albanians claim. Unfortunately here there is no Ahtisari or Roan to stop the vandals, who give sources from Milosevician era, and one sided documents. How about you start reading rather neutral sources, and official international documents of UNMIK, and stop writing with the same language like Milosevic admin would, or later Kostunica (aka premijer Kalasnikov) does. That would be a good start. Until then I will have to revert your changes. Thank you.Ilir pz 23:26, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

text: To Boris: Kosovo and Metohija is not the name of Kosova. We could use Kosovo|Kosova or Kosova|Kosovo but no way Kosovo and Metohija! And the official name of Prishtina is Prishtina. --Mig11 11:04, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No discussions before changes??? 

message: My suggestion is to lock the page untill final status negotiations are over. --Serbiana ₪ 02:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, posting at the Administrators noticeboard would probably do the trick. ;-) Of course, the very existence of the noticeboard isnt very well communicated. Cheers, The Minister of War (Peace) 21:17, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You wanna lock this place once you vandalize it? Not gonna work. As of writing the line about Serbs having Illyrian origin, that is the most ridiculous of all possible street legends. Of course we are not talking about legends on Kosovo in this article. And Gianni, you cannot just give a deadline to someone, but you have to wait once a conclusion is reached, even if it takes more time. As of articles supporting the voting in Macedonia by Albanians, again, citing another wiki site, where no support is given for that either, makes no sense again. After all, how related is that voting with Kosovo itself? You are just trying to support a picture that Albanians just like to expand, and cut parts of other countries right? I don't support an unsupported sentence, and one that deviates from the subject. Ilir pz 15:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lock

message: Greetings fellow Wikipedians!
I noticed that there was a little argument over the article. Well, I changed a few bits, I hope everyone likes what I did, I think I made it more neutral. That's all from me, you guys can finish the job, you all seem to have a lot of knowledge concerning the issue! Good luck, and I hope you resolve the dispute as soon as possible!!!
--M.B. 03:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your contribution. Unfortunately a couple of the people here have no knowledge concerning the issue, but are fed with propaganda of the Milosevic regime, and continue to apply it here. Hope the status talks end soon, and these vandals will have no "facts" to continue their revert war in this page. Regards, Ilir pz 23:17, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hello everyone!!! 

message: I suggest we leave the document as it is, and we go thoroughly through each part of it, a chapter by chapter and revise everything, its sources, relevancy and content. Otherwise I will have no choice but try to stop your pro-serbian reverts. Choose! I will not be lazy to do reverts, if you continue like this! I have no choice. My choices at least have a strong reason - read: I LIVE AND BREATHE IN THE COUNTRY WE ARE DISCUSSING. It is extremely important for my future. For you it is just another wikipedia topic. Think about it, and then waste your time reverting the content here. I guarantee you, your reverts will be very short-lived. I am trying to be constructive here, citing neutral sources, and giving you facts from first-hand experience as well, and you keep citing CPC sources to me, and just keep reverting. Hope you decide to call on your conscience finally. You will regret one day for having wasted your time, as KOSOVA will become independent. Even Draskovic (though I doubt the old wolf, who in the past had his paramilitary groups all over ex-yug, and his mouth was all anti-non-serbian) indicated that, though with many words aside, which I am very suspicious about. . WITH LOVE from KOSOVA, Ilir pz 23:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The well known vandal, Asterion did not wait for me to even publish this before he continued his reverting war. I think we should ask for  to help. Until then, back to what I said earlier. The accurracy and timing makes me very suspicious that Bormalagurski is just another puppet of Asterion. We need mediation, otherwise we are just wasting time here. Ilir pz 00:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ilir, you are the only one reverting everyone else's edits. I suppose that even if you get banned, you will still carry on somehow... Asterion 00:27, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you are right, I will carry on, always. But the abovementioned method works just fine, it is exactly the way you do it. from my COUNTRY KOSOVA, best,Ilir pz 08:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm starting to think Ilir is Agim Ceku. --Serbiana ₪ 08:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am starting to think quite many of you here are organized and getting paid by CΠC and CPC to continue spreading the anti-Albanian propaganda. Ilir pz 08:43, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm starting to think you are going to be blocked very very soon. -- Serbiana ₪ 09:23, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stop reverting 

message: 1) "the final status of Kosovo is the subject of an ongoing dispute between government of Serbia and Kosovo's government" - someone forgot the Albanians and the UN ;) and.. Kosovo is still not a country I think, it's not declared or anything.. (is it?)
2) history is very big
3) Swiss franc isn't that wide-spread. --www.doc 19:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  some problems 

message: May I remind everyone that the purpose of the POV tag is to improve an article, not as some apparently try to use it to discredit an entry they are not happy with. A few editors have been trying to reach consensus on the issue but it seems as if any contribution contrary to Albanian nationalism is automatically reverted by some individual(s). This is not the way forward. Unless their behaviour changes or some disciplinary action is taken, we will be stalled at this stage forever. Regards, Asterion 20:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm still a newcomer, but could we vote for an admin to take charge of the subject? --www.doc 12:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm also being subjected to a harrasing campaign by this individual (as mentioned in my previous post), who not only seems prepared to revert article namespace but has taken a step further and has left unpleasant comments in my talk page and has previously reverted some entries in it. Asterion 19:35, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV tag 

message: Please see the CIA World Factbook. If you notice the map of Serbia and Montenegro, it's the standard map with Kosovo and Metohija. Then, if you notice the Administrative divisions bit, you'll see the following: 
:2 republics (republike, singular - republika); and 2 nominally autonomous provinces (autonomn pokrajine, singular - autonomna pokrajina)(both in the republic of Serbia)* ; Kosovo* (temporarily under UN administration, per UN Security Council Resolution 1244), Montenegro, Serbia, Vojvodina* 
Now, I've looked the Flags of All Countries, and there's no Kosovo there.
Additionally, according to the Countries of the World, Kosovo isn't a country, and if anyone sees the Serbia and Montenegro entry there, he/she will see the map of SCG with Kosovo. You will also notice the population of the state. It includes the population of Kosovo in it. --HolyRomanEmperor 16:31, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the link. I did not see a map of Kosovo and Metohija by the way. Anyways. I still insist that we should check official documents approved in Kosovo and what they say. I am not sure if CIA is the governing authority in Kosova. Tell me if I am wrong. 
* Kosovo is introduced in the world with the UN flag as of now, and that is the flag used in official visits to Kosovo. 
* Kosovo is officially territory under UN administration, I keep repeating this so many times. For me it is a country, a great one actually, I love it.
* population? what population? the census is yet to be made this year. None believes those estimations, or census made by the previous occupatory regime in Kosova. Thank you, Ilir pz 16:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: not gonna waste my time with you. Ilir pz 17:21, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with HolyRomanEmperor. CIA's documents are the hard facts of the story. --www.doc 17:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  CIA World Factbook 

message: ...is the one who's been conducted all the reverting. He abandoned the discussion long ago, which made me sad, I thought that we could finally communicate, but he's not interested in talk, only war... --HolyRomanEmperor 00:24, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Ilir_pz]] 

message: This articel is not your user page. You are deletin all my work. In Kosovo are not only serb. Ther are the "Crnagori" - montengrins too. They don t speek your launguage and they are not serb.--Hipi Zhdripi 02:41, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This issue should be discussed in your own user talk pages as it is unrelated to the article. Regards, Asterion 13:37, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

text: You are trying to say Montenegrins are Serbs?! Bring here your facts for it! I didn’t hear until now any Montenegrins saying they are Serbian. And I know really a lot of them. Why do you call it then “Serbia and Montenegro” and not “Serbia and Serbia”?! I mean, what are you trying to say is ridiculous. P:S. Please try not to offend other users here. Your English is also not as perfect as you think. What you wrote is just a method of personal attacking, while you are trying to deviate from the actual article theme.--Mig11 10:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Your user page 

message: Kosovo is non status are. It is under the UN control till they determined the satatut.
http://www.unmikonline.org/regulations/unmikgazette/03albanian/A2000regs/RA2000_45.pdf
http://www.unmikonline.org/regulations/unmikgazette/04serbian/SC2000regs/RSC2000_45.pdf
PRIVREMENE INSTITUCIJE
1.1 Do odredjivawa bududjeg statusa Kosova, ova Uredba, u skladu
Rezolucijom 1244 Saveta bezbednosti Ujediwenih nacija, uspostavqa
privremene institucije za demokratsku i autonomnu samoupravu na op{tinskom
nivou kao korak ka postepenom prenosu administrativnih nadle`nosti
Privremene administrativne misije Ujediwenih nacija na Kosovu (UNMIK-
koja }e nadgledati i pru`ati podr{ku konsolidaciji ovih institucija.
I think if you accept like the serbs in Kosovo accept this document that you are going to anderstuden that the onl law in Kosovo is the UNMIK-law til  =  Do odredjivawa  the statut of Kosovo is determined.
----------
As I said previously, Kosovo is a province of Serbia under United Nations administration, in the Resolution 1244 (1999), adopted by the United Nations Security Council on 10 June 1999 , the UN reafirmed its commitment to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (and its sucessor state, the Union of Serbia and Montenegro, after the country changed its name). Anything else is just wishful thinking on your side. 
Anyone with some knowledge on International Law is aware that Serbia does not have a separate foreign policy (now and when it was part of the FRY), this is left in the hands of the federal government. Therefore, the UN would not deal directly with Serbia or Montenegro, in the same way that it wouldn't do with Scotland separately if a problem were to arise in the UK. I understand that English is not your native language, as neither is mine, but could you at least use a spellchecker? It is very hard to follow your line of thoughts. Also, please stop using Albanian and Serbo-Croatian language in the talk pages, as you are probably aware that this is the English language wikipedia and your actions could be understood as disrespectful for wikipedians who do not master those languages. Regards, Asterion 13:45, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non status area 

message: The users account User:HolyRomanEmperor and User:Asterion are maken a community only too make the war edit. They dont let me to help in en:Wikipedia. They foil my planes for evry articel wich it has too do with Kosovo. They are not interested to do a work for Wikipedia, but to stopp and destroi my work in en:Wikipedia. They use the Three-revert rule police, I dont wont to make in hier another accont only to make war with this user.--Hipi Zhdripi 02:25, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Really? I would like to discuss; but none do... Does that make that? --HolyRomanEmperor 17:18, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The sane user with many user acont 

message: I don't feed trolls. Best answer to inflamatory comments is to ignore them. Hipi Zhdripi and/or Ilir pz, you have shown no respect for other wikipedians and I politely ask you to retract what you are saying. Making false accusations will ultimately get you banned. Asterion 06:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Asterion: it is very obvious that you are the one here, who does not have any respect for other wikipedians. It is not fair now to accuse others. And it is also very obvious, that you are attacking every user, who tries to protect the Kosova article from users with Serbian ultranationalist ideas. Maybe you should start to think about this things, before you accuse other users.--Mig11 12:52, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note that Ilir pz has said Please block Asterion vandal for six times before this. He keeps using words like nazi-like Serbian propaganda, while his revert war buddies run around wiki and keep calling me (and others) shitheads and then placing Personal Attack warnings themselves! People will get respect when they show respect. --HolyRomanEmperor 17:24, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

text: what respect do you want me to show for people who are determined to change anything that has to do with Albanians, to make pro-Serbian comments all over those wiki pages??? I dont think I will have respect for them. And yes, the way reverting is being done is nothing but extreme-Seselj like nationalism, which you claim openly to support, and all the world has accused of war crimes. User asterion for example, supports SPS. Isn't that the party that lead (and lost) 4 wars in ex yug, killing so many innocents, including serbs? excuse me, no further comment needed. The revert game will continue until these vandals are stopped. Mig11 you have by backing, I can help you in this. THank you, Ilir pz 21:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

text: and look who is talking. The guy who is reverting automatically using popups nowadays. This is a way to discuss for you? I have shown understanding to those who showed a little understanding. I keep calling for compromise. I send invitations to start a new approach. Whereas you and HRE keep reverting without even considering my proposals. "not mature and adult-like at all" is a personal attack! Thanks for it. No need to send me warnings, and offenses, I disregard them completely.Ilir pz 00:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you prepared to reflect on your behaviour and elaborate on the points you find suffering of POV or are you going to carry on with your reverts? Also, please note that by using Wikipedia, you are bound to its policies. Otherwise, you will get banned as your friend Hipi Zhdripi. Therefore, disregarding them is not an option. Asterion 00:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't answer to you until you apologize for the personal offense above. Ilir pz 09:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Asterion: You are not neutral. You are trying to ban in Wikipedia all the people that don’t share your opinions. You are calling every user that doesn’t share your opinion a sock puppet of someone else. That is not fair, it is not neutral and it doesn’t help us to improver this article! I am not even trying for the moment to write something new in this article, because I see what is happening with everything that doesn’t share your personal opinions. You have been reverting everything that doesn’t fit with your point of view. This article is not your personal homepage. It is very sad to see, that after all what happened between and with Serbian and Albanian people in Kosova, there are yet people who try to deny the historical facts about this country, and still go on with a Serbian propaganda. I mean, I understand it, it is hard to remove yourself from the influence of the Serbian medial brainwashing machine, but you should try it! This propaganda didn’t destroy just the Albanian live in Kosova but also the Serbian one. Look where are they now. The Serbian country was never, in its whole history, smaller as it is now. Don’t try to use Wikipedia for Serbian propaganda. Wikipedia is democratic and not a dictatorship, and is free for everyone. Also for the people who don’t share your point of view. You can’t ban all of them! --Mig11 10:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trolling 

message: This article has been  due to probable sockpuppet editing by the blocked.  Will review in a few days. — xaosflux Talk 01:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is Wikipedia and free to edit for everyone. Things that you are trying to sell to us here as a truth, are not fair and don’t have to do anything with historical facts. It is called Kosovo or Kosova and not Kosovo and Metohija. Look at the UN pages, and how they call it. Kosova is now administrated by them! 95% of people living there named it like this. To write your personal opinions and then try to protect them from every one who doesn’t share them, that my friend breaks every Wikipedia rule! --Mig11 10:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is interesting how they request protections, once they have their version set there. Don't you notice, Mig11?? This is a great tactic, but I don't think it is going to work. Thos that consider this article their personal property will be stopped. Ilir pz 10:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  {{t1|sprotected}} 

message: Who knows how to make a link to discussion from the past to put them in archive but accessable? It would be helpful.
::they are accessible. check archives. Ilir pz 19:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion from the past

message: E vetmja zgjidhje është që Sebërt ta bojin një artike "Molo Serbia"= "Litel Serbia" dhe një artikull "Velika Serbia"=Great Serbia. Në artikullin e fundit mujin mi shti Kosovën. Po atëher gjithë historin që e kanë shkru për Sërbin e që është e lidhne për terenin e Kosovë duhet me u qujtë historia e Kosovës. Edhe historia e banorëve të këtij tereni duhet e u thirrë historia e Kosovarëve. Krejt pincat që janë të prezentunë si serb e që vijin prej Kosovës duhet me u dryshu që janë kosovar. Mos u brengosni se këtë punë kurr nuk pranojin. Pasi që ata nuk e pranojin qashtu duhet me gjetë kompromisin. Edhe gjitha artikujt që kanë të bëjnë me Kosovën duhet me qenë të ndame ashtu si janë në praktikë. Në artikullin e Serbia and Montenego mujin me përmen në pjesën e parë që Kosova  ende është antare e RSFJ. Nsërsa Serbia (Malo Serbia dhe Vojvodina) dhe Mali i zi (Malcia) janë në lidhje shtetrore (nuk është kjo as Union as Federat apo Konfederat por në anglisht thuhet Bound). Nëse dëshironi ndonjëri mund ta përkëthejë përmiq tanë në botë në gjuhen angleze.
::only English here please.Ilir pz 19:28, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  E vetmja zgjidhje 

message: This notce has been removed several times (deliberate or not). May I just remind users that since this page is semi protected, a semi protection notice should be included on the page. I can't really think of any possible conflict surrounding that. Therefore may I request it is left in place until semi protection is removed. Thanks! Ian13/talk 20:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi protection notice removal 

message: See: the serb version of Kosovo
...still unclear, as the final status of Kosovo is the subject of an ongoing dispute between government of Serbia and Kosovo's government...--Hipi Zhdripi 22:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non status Area 

message: How is maken her war? Go and make war in Serbian seits?--Hipi Zhdripi 22:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Stop talking about war, for Pete's sake! This is an encyclopedia not a battleground. Can you reply to my two questions I made above? These are the only two issues you insist on arguing about. So, can you explain your reasons against them? Asterion 23:08, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit war 

message: :::I feel that I have to add something. Please note that the temporary solution defines Kosovo as a territory of Serbia and Montenegro under UN administration. Note that it's not defined as a part of Serbia, but the Union rather. This is mostly because they anticipated the future most probable status of Kosovo, a state within the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro. 
:::However, you must realize that Serbia's (and the Union's) consitution defines Kosovo as an autonomous region, temporary under UN administration. The current borders of Serbia (and SCG) are internationally recognized and used everywhere (with Kosovo-Metohija). However, Kosovo is nowhere treated as an entity indistinct from Serbia (and most definatly not indistinct from the S-M), as no faction in the world sees it that way. I suggest that a possible compromise is that we should add that the Kosovar Albanian goverment refuses the Belgrade suzeiranity and considers it not a part of Serbia, and then the other side of the story (Serbia & the world), however, pointing it not an official part of Serbia and Montenegro is, francly, I apologize for the expression, but it is, really nonsensical. Hope that you will solve the case! --HolyRomanEmperor 23:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My contribution 

message: Somebody placed this article into "Serbia and Montenegro" category, but it should be moved to "Subdivisions of Serbia and Montenegro" category since "Serbia and Montenegro" category is for "Serbia and Montenegro" article only. Can somebody of administrators to change this category? PANONIAN (talk) 02:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wrong category

message: This is a part from Hipi defensiever War. I dont wont to be a part of this Serbians Govermant Propaganda. --Hipi Zhdripi 22:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you talking about? Serb is an adverb. What does OK I accept the serbs are all sllavs in Balkan mean? --HolyRomanEmperor 13:33, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  watch this 

message: NO COMENT, --Hipi Zhdripi 22:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I was wrong : 13:36, 15 April 2006 Asterion (RV to last comprehensive version due to unexplained deletion of 80% of the article by it was 80%--Hipi Zhdripi 13:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: NO COMMENT ... 
The Realty in Kosovo is:
and   right|200px 
You can put, and put, you can work to destroy Wikipedia (You cant do nothing in Kosovo). If you are so sure that Kosovo is a part of Serbia, go in Kosovo. Dont tell the word how pure you are. In Sllovenia war, Croatia War, Bosnja War, Kosovo War and Serbia War you was LOSER. Hello hier is not Kosovo hier is the articel about Kosovo. Dont lose your time go and kille the peopel ther.--Hipi Zhdripi 22:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Medieval - The arrival of Serbs, the unified Serbian Lands and the Serb Kingdom 

message: Please can sombody translet the Word "SERB". Wat that word is meaning in english. And they call himself Serb. Go in Prishtina, meat a old man, ask him to sing a song from history and then you are going to know wat is that word in english. This word Servia from slav maket to Serbia is meaning in albanian north dialeckt .... . Please do me a fiwer go in the Rashka, Prizren and Deqani trink a Raki with a Pope ther and user this chance to asked him to go to the church arkive. --Hipi Zhdripi 00:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Boris let us try to understand the man, though his level of English is not as good as the rest. He can still have a say. Thanks,Ilir pz 22:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Word "SERB" 

message: ...is talking very bad English. I'm sorry to object this harshly, but this is getting ridiculous, as I managed to decipher only every 3rd word and other users even less.
Check again. The history sections' 50-60%. Ofcourse this should be the most important part; Kosovo has a very, very rich history (at least richer than most parts of the world).
Perhaps things would've been better if the User stated what he wanted to say. 
Sincerely. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wacht this http://www.montenegro.org/origins.html--Hipi Zhdripi 23:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I tried to communicate with Hipi, but it didn't work. He's silent. Hipi, the relations between Montenegrins and Serbs are the same like between Kosovar Albanians and Macedonian Albanians. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:32, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are saying that is the same Serbian Nation ad Montenegro Nation.?--Hipi Zhdripi 22:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hippi Zhdripi 

message: Right here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kosovo&oldid=48482057. --estavisti 22:31, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to the version I rv-ed