Talk:Leonese language

message: Since both languages are the same and the Asturian article is much bigger, I think someone should merge this one into the other and convert it into a redirect. Charles Dexter Ward 15:01, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 

message: Leonese language is not exactly the same that asturian language, and it can be considered as a different idiom. --Galician 18:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not exactly the same 

message: The following heading does not make sense:
"Adult people
More than 104 persons in five levels studies Leonese Language in 2008-2009 course for adult people in the official courses that developes the Leonese City Council Department for Leonese Culture[7]".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.112.156.24 (talk) 01:54, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improper English 

message: Auslli asked me to give some advice on how to improve the quality this article, so I'll list a few things that need to be amended:
*Overall, the article needs to adhere closer to the language template. The template contains almost all of the standardized headings that can house most, if not all, information necessary for a good quality language article. It also has useful recommendations on what to include under each heading.
*There is much content here that isn't particularly relevant to a language article or that is bordering the trivial. Just about all of the information about Leonese Language Day doesn't belong here. There's already a separate article for this topic and could be summarized in a sentence or two. Keep in mind that the article is primarily about describing the specific of the language itself, its history, geographic distribution, grammar, relation to other languages, etc. Political campaigns and other policies relevant to the language should be mentioned, but not focused on excessively.
*Lists and tables of various translated words should not be included unless they have a specific purpose. Simple glossaries are actively discouraged by WP:LANG and Wikipedia policy in general.
*The quality of language in the article needs to be improved. Currently it's rather repetitive, stilted and contains a lot of errors in the spelling and grammar.
*The article could use more sources, if possible in English. A general reference on Leonese in particular would be very useful. Citations also need to be standardized. I recommend consulting WP:CITE for further guidance.
Peter Isotalo 15:19, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've strated with the grammar.Regards.--Auslli (talk) 14:25, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

text: ...no answers in 3 weeks... how sad. --Jotamar (talk) 23:05, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

text: The standard of English seriously needs to be looked at in this article, I have just stumbled upon an appalling sentence: PuntuLLI Association develops the fight...There are more than 800 signers and 44 organisations collaborating with it. In addition to the Leon City Council, which uses Leonese in its web site, so other associations, organisations or enterprises use the language in their web sites too. I can rewrite this from the Spanish page, or indeed simply rewrite this passage directly in English if nobody objects. Angryafghan (talk) 18:38, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improvement recommendations 

message: It seems curious to me see what's happening in this article. Auslli, and specially Undersucker and Bilgelik only appear to revert me. I believe that my editions respect the Neutral Point of View of Wikipedia. There's no reason to keep the term "Kingdom of León" in the article, I've explained it a couple of lines up. So, I think that we should protect this article from disruptive edits that only pretend to impose the terms Llión, Kingdom of León and the number of speakers, absolutely invented. Regards. Rastrojo (talk) 13:01, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There hasn't been any edit warring in nearly 24 hours, so I don't think protection is necessary at this point. Still, all editors should discuss the matter here and hopefully come up with a solution. –Juliancolton | Talk 17:05, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit war 

message: The sociolinguistic study of Leon never talk it about numbers of speakers of language leonés. The respondents spoke about traditional language, which many respondents do not identify with the Leonese language. Therefore, from this study can not get the number of speakers of language leonés. 
I have the study in my power.
(Sorry for my English)--FCPB (talk) 13:40, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  As I already said to you in a discussion on the Spanish entry, there are other philologist whose papers explicitely support the figure of 50.000 Leonese speakers. --Eldrewitsch (talk) 18:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of speakers 

message: I wonder how the works by Menendez Pidal on the whole asturleonese lingüistic dominion (what he called "leonese diactect") and other works that use the term "leonese" in the same way ("dialectos leoneses") may be used to define a "language" that, in the sense that Menendez Pidal used, also applied to the languages spoken in Asturias. The article is definitely misleading. --Ecemaml (talk) 13:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You haven't answered the question... Rastrojo (talk) 21:46, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed article 

message: It has been proved that Auslli is an admin of Llionpedia, a Leonese encyclopedia with a Leonesist Point of View. There are no more doubts about his political inclinations, which are also supported by Undersucker. So, this revisions should be kept out of the article. The NPOV should be saved. Regards. Rastrojo (talk) 16:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody is free of political inclinations, but I think Rastrojo ist the less indicated to talk about ist, being him a supporter of an imaginary Castilian state. I think we are seeing a well organized campaign against a minority language. Sad. --Eldrewitsch (talk) 08:37, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Any proof of your statements? Rastrojo (talk) 09:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I am tired of politized Spaniards. Please learn to be more tolerant with other opinions. You request proofs? Go to you user site at the Spanish (and not Castilian) wikipedia and re-read your statements. It is amazing that such a political motivated user like you, obviously active in the Castilian independentist movement, has become librarian in the Spanish wiki.--Eldrewitsch (talk) 10:26, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

text: So what? Rastrojo (talk) 12:48, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So "nada amigo", as you would say. I am not going to argue with you. You Spaniards are so agressive when defending your own political point of view that it is of no use to debate with you. No wonder you hate yourselves so much. --88.14.36.248 (talk) 14:53, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral Point of View in the article 

message: This article is a copy of this politized pseudo-wikipedia: http://www.llinguallionesa.net/index.php/Llingua_Ll%C3%AFonesa  --Karkeixa (talk) 12:27, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Entirely agree, but the odds of coming across an editor of English Wikipedia who feels competent to the task of cleaning this one up or who has the time to translate the Spanish article is low. If you can spare the effort... Srnec (talk) 05:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a hard work... and I don't speak english well... It takes time --Karkeixa (talk) 12:47, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Politized article

message: * The number of speakers of sánchez Prieto, R. (2008): "La elaboración y aceptación de una norma lingüística en comunidades dialectalmente divididas: el caso del leonés y del frisio del norte" is based on this other sociolingüistic book: Xosé Antón González Riaño y Xosé Lluis García Arias. II Estudiu sociollingüísticu de Lleón (Identidá, conciencia d'usu y actitúes llingüístiques de la población lleonesa). Academia de la Llingua Asturiana.
* Actually in Salamanca are not speakers of leonese. Please, see the lingüístic maps of the Romania Minor Asociation or read the Report of the Asturian language (Academy of the Asturian language).  --Karkeixa (talk) 07:20, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes 

message: Academia de la Llingua Asturiana is an official organism and Romania Minor is a reputed organization. You just want to keep your politized point of view. The linguistic reality in Spain is another. Stop being vandalize, please! --Karkeixa (talk) 08:58, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Morteira user 

message: This article is being written from the unique perspective of the  political organization Conceyu Xoven. The user Auslli was unmasked in the spanish wikipedia. He drafted the spanish article with political interests and we had to rewrite the article objectively. Nobody will to do anything to correct and depoliticize the english article? --Karkeixa (talk) 11:21, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What you're doing here could be against the policy of good faith. --Auslli (talk) 17:39, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

text: Please see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Eldrewitsch. -- Luk talk 22:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I have read. Is an attack against my because i am the only one who is arguing. --Karkeixa (talk) 08:02, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

text: ...and, Rastrojo is an administrator on the Spanish Wikipedia.--Karkeixa (talk) 08:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manipulation and unilateral point of view 

message: User Auslli was expulsed in italian, german and Spanish wiki. Link--> http://diariodeleon.com/noticias/noticia.asp?pkid=486378 (the article in the news says "English wiki", but it's a typographical error; it must say "Spanish wiki"). In Spanish wiki, they reverted all editions made for Auslli, Xairu and Sprawi; and they have corrected the article, so it's a good idea translate it from Spanish now. --Paladinex (talk) 12:55, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Translation in progress

message: User Benwing inserted a statement into at least two articles about Astur-Leonese languages (this one and Leonese language) falsely implying that these languages genetically descend from a Portuguese node. This contradicts the established view. The established view is elaborated in various Wikipedia articles on Astur-Leonese languages: western Romance is a dialect continuum with many members, and most of the local vernaculars are not "basilects" of Spanish, Portuguese, or French. Within Iberian Romance, Leonese, Asturias, and Aragonese are not variants of Spanish, but rather Spanish is of comparable rank to them. Again, this has all been articulated in other Wikipedia articles. More particularly, Leonese is not a variety of Portuguese any more than of Spanish. Therefore, user Benwing is in error to choose wording, "here are historical traits which link (Mirandese, Leonese) to Portuguese rather than to Spanish". The key insight is that in western Romance phonology, at least in consonants, Castilian is highly divergent from all the others. The inventory and distribution of consonants in Leonese resemble the Portuguese more than the nearly all the western Romance dialects from Belgium to Lisbon resemble one another closely in these regards. Dale Chock (talk) 01:00, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Once you have stated in the page that Leonese is not anyone's basilect, it makes sense to see its connections to the neighbouring linguistic varieties, as it is not an isolated variety either. Arranging the linguistic features according to which other varieties share them is helpful for the reader. Remember there's the tree model but also the wave model. Jotamar (talk) 01:36, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undoing edits of 20 July 2011 relating to relationship to Portuguese 

message: For anyone with updated information about the languages in Spain, it's obvious that the ambiguity Leonese vs Astur-Leonese does no longer exist. The term Leonese is not used nowadays for the linguistic varieties in Asturias, Cantabria or even in Mirando do Douro. Rewording the heading as if the ambiguity still existed really messes up the page. Jotamar (talk) 14:22, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid I didn't express my idea well. It's obvious that this page was created to describe the vernaculars in León (provinces of León Zamora and Salamanca), otherwise there wouldn't be a Astur-Leonese languages page nor a Asturian language page. Therefore any ambiguity must be resolved by hatnotes and not inside the page body. Jotamar (talk) 18:54, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leonese vs Astur-Leonese 

message: There seems to be no belief among the specialists that the dialects of Leonese constitute a distinct language from Asturian. Dale Chock (talk) 01:07, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: As for me, I wouldn't mind but I guess some editors might oppose the idea as they regard Leonese as an identity marker for a certain territory (old province of León, that is, present provinces of León, Zamora and Salamanca). Jotamar (talk) 18:56, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal to rename as "Leonese dialects"

message: I was surprised to find no external link to Llionpedia, and added one.  Was this there before, and removed because of some dispute?  I assume that Llionpedia was started in part because Leonese and Asturian were not considered distinct languages by our standards, but two communities each wanted their own reference work...  Nevertheless, the site was set up and has grown significantly; it is certainly one of the significant collections of Leonese writing online.  – SJ + 23:46, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to Llionpedia 

message: Sorry for reverting in bulk all the editions by Sifedyx, but they included removing references and unilaterally deciding that Salamanca should be left out. Some previous discussion is needed. Jotamar (talk) 17:09, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last editions by Sifedyx 

message: i wondered, what does the sign in the picture say? it translates as river jargon, but what does that mean?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.167.22.90 (talk) 16:55, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The sign indicates the presence of a river named Jerga (and apparently, Xerga in Leonese). It needn't have any connection with the Spanish word jerga (jargon). Jotamar (talk) 15:55, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  riu erga 

message: Could some one please tell me whether in the Linguistic Characteristics section are discussed the characteristics of the whole Asturleonese areal or only of Leones in narrow sence (the dialects spoken in Leon)? Thanks in advance. --Мико (talk) 06:53, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The page was intended to deal just with the dialects in León (including Zamora and Salamanca), but there have been some strange changes in Astur-Leonese languages and now I'm not sure about what is intended. Jotamar (talk) 18:18, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leonese in narrow or broader sence 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The opening sentence says Leonese is a dialect. But of what? I'm not a linguist, but I've always heard dialect as in "X is a dialect of Spanish." Leonese is spoken in Spain, but it's not clear from the opening if it's a dialect of Spanish or of Galician, or of some other language. If I'm misunderstanding the concept of "dialect," please correct me. —MiguelMunoz (talk) 18:22, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The answer is in the second paragraph of the lead: The Leonese and Asturian dialects have long been recognized as a single language, currently known as Astur-Leonese or Asturian-Leonese .... --Jotamar (talk) 16:51, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dialect of what? 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:24, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: In my opinion, the video recently added in this page is not the best possible sample of a Leoneses speaker: the dialect it represents is a marginal area in southern Salamanca province, closer to Extremaduran than to Leonese, and most of the video sounds as normal Spanish, with just a few Leonese-flavored words at the end. --Jotamar (talk) 18:57, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better speech sample 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
----
:Leonese dialect →  – Leonese, along Asturian (titled as a language on Wikipedia), Mirandese (also titled as a language) and Extremaduran (same here), are all part of the same language: Asturleonese. However, they are not dialects, at least not Asturian and Leonese, see maps on the actual dialects of Asturleonese we have on Commons here:   . The situation of the Asturleonese variants could be compared to that of the Serbo-Croatian ones: Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin are not dialects of a same language, but different standardized versions of the same language, which do not correspond to the dialectal split of Serbo-Croatian . Similarily, Asturian is only the Asturleonese spoken in Asturias, Leonese is the Asturleonese spoken in the region of León, and so on (although I am not sure if the Asturleonese variants have been standardized, probably not). I'd say it is better to have consistency among articles, since there's no reason that we label Asturian, Mirandese and Extremaduran as languages but Leonese as a dialect. Another option could be something like "Leonese variants of Asturleonese" or "Leonese Asturleonese", but that's probably not very widely used on Wikipedia. Super Ψ Dro 16:44, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the logic of the move, dialect has become a bit of a demeaning word. Another possibility is the solution adopted in WP-es: Leonese (Astur-Leonese from León), Asturian (Astur-Leonese from Asturias), etc. --Jotamar (talk) 23:47, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

text: Note: WikiProject Languages has been notified of this discussion. 🐶 EpicPupper (he/him | talk) 19:23, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

text: Note: WikiProject Spain has been notified of this discussion. 🐶 EpicPupper (he/him | talk) 19:24, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

text: I also agree with the logic behind this, I don't really see a reason why some Astur-leonese varieties should be titled as languages and others as dialects. I'll also mention that Cantabrian dialect has dialect in its name as well. Erinius (talk) 11:38, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure what to do with that one. "Cantabrian language" is probably a fringe term. Maybe we could use "Montañés" but I am not sure. Super Ψ Dro 15:02, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, so you're saying we should treat Leonese as a language because it has its own standard and for consistency? And "Cantabrian language" would be an innapropriate title for that article? Fair I guess, though it seems like we should keep discussion of Cantabrian for that article's talk page. Sorry for bringing up.  Anyway, WP:DIALECT says that the choice between 'language' and 'dialect' should be guided by the most common usage in reliable sources. And I'm not really sure which is more common, since I haven't read much on Leonese. WP:DIALECT also mentions a neutral option, like Leonese (Astur-Leonese from León) which User:Jotamar mentioned. I'll support a move if there are enough reliable sources which use "Leonese language" or which call Leonese a language. Erinius (talk) 20:17, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 20 February 2022