Talk:Delaware Valley

message: I was reading Greater Boston's CSA article and it is more informative listing key universities, economics and history situated in the area and I am wondering why the Greater Philadelphia/Delaware Valley article doesn't have the same listings. They're very similar areas. This article could be much more informative than it is. Half-assed job here.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.79.54.121 (talk) 19:40, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: This section lacks compared to other Metro area sections like Greater Boston's

message: Please update based on the census as virtually all other metro area articles have this important section. 66.116.62.178 (talk) 13:31, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: This article is missing a demographic section

message: Can someone who lives in the Delaware Valley provide a map, please? Eric Forste 00:52, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Map

message: We shouldn't confuse unofficial and vague ideas of metropolitan areas with specific census-defined Metropolitan Statistical Areas.  The Philadelphia-Wilmington-Atlantic City Consolidated Metropolitan Statistical Area is a group of counties defined by the U.S. Census to exist.  This is what is discussed in this article.  The "Delaware Valley" is a vague term used unofficially.  There is no reason to suggest that it is identical to the Census Bureau's Philadelphia-Wilmington-Atlantic City Consolidated Metropolitan Area.  For instance, I doubt most people would recognize Cecil County, Maryland or Cape May County, New Jersey as part of the "Delaware Valley," even if they are part of the Philadelphia-Wilmington-Atlantic City Consolidated Metropolitan Area.  We need to stop acting as though the areas defined by the census area are an NPOV description of metropolitan areas in the US.  For instance, the Washington-Baltimore CMSA is ridiculously huge, including almost entirely rural counties as far out as West Virginia or Maryland's Eastern Shore.  Many have suggested that this definition is largely done in order to lower the government's cost of living assessments for federal workers by including lots of cheap, rural areas in the metropolitan area where so many federal employees live. I think we need to get our acts together on this. john k 04:20, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Unofficial "Metropolitan Areas" vs. Metropolitan Statistical Areas

message: There is a clear problem with failure of the article to discuss the supposed subject, the "Delaware Valley" in its usual meaning. In geography the term "XXX" Valley refers to the area draining to the river in question. As can be seen from a map, or the Wikipedia article on the Delaware River, the Delaware River Valley covers a much larger area than is discussed here, with the Delaware River starting in News York and flowing south, draining large parts of Pennsylvania, and New Jersey, as sell as Delaware.
Those finding an article title "Delaware Valley" would expect a discussion of the whole area draining to the Delaware River. 
The true subject seems to be some type of economic region covering the area centered on Philadelphia, Wilmington, and related counties. Such a grouping is valid for some purposes, and there is apparently even a regional planning body using this title (probably chosen to avoid sounding too Philadelphia Centered). If this economic region is the intended subject of the article, the title should so reflect, and the first sentence should be clear as to what is being covered, and how the region is being defined for this specialized usage. (Note, the I below is not the writer of the above three paragraphs).(Ed7654 (talk) 20:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarifications? 

message: Any reactions/suggestions (regestions) for an addition with TV/Radio table in this article? Possible titles include "Media" or "Television and Radio" Bill D 15:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New TV/Radio table? 

message: See this OMB bulletin. The Reading Metropolitan Statistical Area is now part of the Philadelphia-Camden-Vineland CSA. --Polaron | Talk 01:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I adjusted the map accordingly. Kmusser 12:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Combined Statistical Area redefinition 

message: The topic is vague regarding whether it's discussing the CSA or the similarly-named MSA.  Reading isn't part of the latter, according to current sources from BLS Tedickey (talk) 13:50, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Count Reading and one must count Allentown and Lancaster. Philly should be larger than several  now above it among CSAs. 2606:9400:9F9F:E9A0:21E5:85ED:5CAF:E8F5 (talk) 11:14, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Reading CSA vs MSA

message: I would like to suggest that this article be moved to a more formal name.  "Delaware Valley" should be a geographical article.  Some possible names this could be moved to:
* Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD Metropolitan Statistical Area
* Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington Metropolitan Statistical Area
* Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington MSA
* Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington
* Philadelphia Metropolitan Statistical Area
* Philadelphia Metropolitan Area
* Philadelphia MSA
The rest of these should probably be redirects to the new name.  Thoughts?  --ChrisRuvolo (t) 12:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed move 

message: I remember reading when I was young that the term originated with WPVI, which still uses it. If true, that would mean KYW would eschew its use because of its origination by a competitor ... Any thoughts? Corraboration? PennaBoy 02:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: lexical origin - question

message: I have eliminated the counties around the Delaware Valley section.  If counties are added by the census, they should be listed.  Speculation is worthless.  The whole section seemed to imply the reach of the Philadelphia area is greater than it actually is.  There is fast growth in many areas, the New York City area in particular, but that is irrelevant.  The point is that we have no idea how an area will grow or constrict IN THE FUTURE.  You cannot assume future growth from present growth, nor can you assume where that growth will reach.  There are still undeveloped areas in Burlington and Gloucester county, for example.   I hate to be mean, but that whole section (originally "adjacent" to area section) demonstrates the persistent inferiority complex of those in the Philly area have to New York City.  Monmouth county, a county that borders Queens County, NY.  Please.  As a person who formerly lived in South Jersey and now lives in North Jersey, let me say that this complex is totally unnecessary.  The Philly area is pretty nice and distinct from the New York City area.  DO NOT EXAGGERATE THIS ARTICLE to include what does not deserve to be there.  No articles on wikipedia, for that matter, should be speculative.  Be objective people.  Jps57 (talk) 03:42, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't it just a tad bit ironic for you to tell others to be objective after claiming Philadelphia has an inferiority complex to New York and that it is exaggerating because of it.  In reality, Philadelphia is the ONLY metro or CSA that doesn't exaggerate its reach and in fact does the opposite, despite the fact that its reach CLEARLY goes all the way into the furthest parts of South Jersey (and at one point into Central and parts of Northern) to the Lehigh Valley and other parts of NE PA, and to eastern Central PA.  Be objective, jps.  24rhhtr7 (talk) 02:05, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Counties Around Philly Area REMOVED, justification below

message: I'm not certain that the term originated with WPVI-TV, but your story does jibe with something I've heard, PennaBoy -- it was coined by a local media outlet that wanted to distinguish itself from another outlet that used the more traditional construction "Greater Philadelphia".  "Greater [core city name]" is a far more common phrase used to refer to a large city and its suburban region, but the historical animosity between the city of Philadelphia and its suburbs probably helped contribute to the widespread adoption of "Delaware Valley" over "Greater Philadelphia".  In that respect, Philadelphia is almost unique in having a term that omits any mention of the core city commonly used to refer to the metro; the only other widely used term I am familiar with of this type is "Twin Cities" for Minneapolis-St. Paul, but that term is used because the two core cities are roughly equal in size and importance.  Saying "Delaware Valley" is "the name" for the region is IMO therefore inaccurate; calling the phrase a "commonly used term" or even "widely used term" is a more neutral description and therefore should be used here. Marketstel (talk) 06:25, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Terminology and regional identity

message: Edge city definition doesn't come close to any of the locations cited TEDickey (talk) 23:09, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  edge cities 

message: Under the "counties making up the Delaware valley section, "relatively wealthy" is marked as a peacock term, in the sentence "Mercer County, a relatively wealthy county located on the northern fringe of the Delaware Valley MSA, is home to both New York and Philadelphia commuters". It strikes me as a little strange to call this a peacock term; whether or not the county is affluent is a clearly verifiable fact (see the census bureau's demographic data on Mercer county, not an opinion or a promotion of the county. I suppose you could make it more specific or add a citation, but it's not exactly a peacock term.173.66.1.160 (talk) 23:57, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  supposed peacock terms 

message: All of the recent information U.S. Census reports and reports from other groups point to the fact that the Del Val (Greater Philly) has been passed by Greater Houston in the rankings. Philly is now 6th, not 4th, in size of the metro areas in the U.S.  In American BizJournals, in a column called "On Numbers", G. Scott Thomas, on March 7, 2011, listed the current size of the top metro areas in the U.S. Philly is clearly number 6 and there no citation for the incorrect claim that Philly is 4.  The Greater Philly area only grew by less than one half of one percent in the last decade.  Houston grew by well over 25%.  What follows is a short piece of information from the Thomas article in BizJournals:
Metro or micro area Population (estimated as of March 7, 2011) Rank (of 940 metros and micros)   
1.New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA 19,199,668 
2.Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA.............. 12,961,505
3.Chicago-Naperville-Joliet, IL-IN-WI ................9,673,948 
4.Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX ....................6,712,303
5.Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX .....................6,108,060 
6.Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD.. ......6,018,573
7.Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA................. 5,700,894 
8.Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL.............5,620,115
9.Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV........5,602,583
10.Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH ....................4,638,656 
Read more: Metro area populations (as of March 7, 2011) | Business First   --Palmtree6600 (talk) 14:19, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: So - provide a reliable source which matches the statement you're attempting to support.  So far, not close.  For instance, the latest provides 2011 estimates which doesn't actually provide a ranking, which doesn't match the 2010 census statement.  I've corrected the title for this discussion. TEDickey (talk) 20:17, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

text: Not sure where BizJournals is getting its data, but I couldn't match it to anything on the Census site.  The most recent documents I could find that give Metro rankings used 2009 estimates which place Philly 5th .  Data from the 2010 Census isn't conveniently ranked, but looking up the individual counties via the Factfinder that doesn't look like it's changed (I got 5,965,343 for Philly and 5,946,800 for Houston). Kmusser (talk) 21:28, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

text: Well, the last edit appears to be aimed at just using BizJournals, whether or not the statement happens to be based on a reliable source TEDickey (talk) 00:05, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Incorrect claim that Del Val is the fourth largest metro

message: I know that Philadelphia might think Wilmington is a suburb, but it really isn't, and somebody needs to make that known. It is its own major banking center, has its own significant companies, and history.
There is more about King of Prussia and Cherry Hill than there is about Wilmington Delaware, which really is unbalanced. Somebody reading this article would assume that Wilmington, DE is just an extension of the suburbs of Philadelphia, when in reality, it is a parallel smaller metropolitan area which happens to be attached to the Philly metro area.
For example, go on Careerbuilder, and search within 50 miles of Philadelphia, and you will find that Wilmington has more listed jobs than Cherry Hill, King of Prussia, and Trenton combined. It also has the oldest Church in the area, headquarters huge companies, has special tax advantages to the entire region, and was essential in providing gunpowder to win America's wars. It even shared a railroad with Philadelphia and Baltimore. Yet it's listed as if it were an afterthought.
If I had permission, I would edit it myself.
Joe84323 (talk) 15:27, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wilmington 

message: Here is a good source of freely licensed images of the Upper Delaware Valley:--GrapedApe (talk) 04:36, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images of Upper Delaware Valley 

message: Recently, the head of a local economic consulting and forecasting firm wrote an essay calling for the retirement of the term "Delaware Valley" as a reference to Greater Philadlephia, a move I support.
As the writer pointed out, the term is geographically inaccurate and slights the region's core city. Most metropolitan areas with one dominant core city are usually referred to as "Greater [city name]" or "Metro [city name]," even if the region has other satellite cities that function as lesser cores (e.g., Wilmington, Del., in the case of Greater Philadelphia).
It's also topographically inaccurate for the bulk of the territory encompassed by the term, for once it leaves the Piedmont and enters the coastal plain, which includes most of its course through lower Bucks, Burlington, Camden, Delaware, Gloucester and Philadelphia counties, the Delaware is not in a valley.
Finally, I've seen stats that suggest that Internet searches on "Delaware Valley" in search of information on Greater Philadelphia have been declining over the last few years.
Yet I note that the former article "Philadelphia-Wilmington-Atlantic City, PA-NJ-DE-MD Metropolitan Statistical Area" now redirects here.
Since the "Delaware Valley" fits better as a geographical term referring to the basin drained by the Delaware River than as an economic/cultural term describing the metropolitan region centered on Philadelphia, I'd like to suggest that this article ultimately be revised to one on the Philadelphia metropolitan area under a title reflecting that fact and "Delaware Valley" be changed to a disambiguation page pointing to two articles: one on the Delaware River Basin and the other on metropolitan Philadelphia. Marketstel (talk) 12:18, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Perhaps we should reverse the redirect and make this a disambiguation page? 

message: Several issues: peakbagger appears to be a borderline source - not WP:RS, since its content is community-edited.  Berks County isn't in what consensus would agree as "Delaware Valley" except in the secondary sense (social).  Geologically - doesn't seem plausible.  There are probably better sources, and better contenders, e.g., Kittatinny Mountains at 1800 feet - and geologically part of the valley. Finally, highest point in a valley is incongruous TEDickey (talk) 20:13, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that Peakbagger's not the best source. Until a better one is found, I've changed the highest elevation to 1080 ft (329 m) in accordance with Chester County's Welsh Mountain, which seems to be the highest point within the core counties of the metro area. I've also added a reference to a topographic map of the Welsh Mountain area, although the map doesn't denote a summit quite that high. –Reelcheeper (talk) 05:31, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  questionable source and interpretation 

message: Ummm... Trenton is NOT part of the Philadelphia CSA... It is part of the New York City CSA. This needs to be fixed. 72.229.24.231 (talk) 01:50, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This is true, and it was an error in the article, which I've corrected.  While Trenton is not part of the Philadelphia CSA as currently defined, though, it is part of the Delaware Valley cultural and economic region.  Marco polo (talk) 01:04, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trenton 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I would think such a move would have been discussed here before being undertaken. While I agree that use of the term "Delaware Valley" is somewhat questionable, I'm not sure I've heard the term "Greater Philadelphia" much, either. A more neutral term such as "Philadelphia metropolitan area" would be better, and I think this move should've been discussed before it was performed. Famartin (talk) 17:15, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I live in the Philadelphia area and do not hear the term "Greater Philadelphia" used too much to refer to the area. However, many media sources do use "Delaware Valley" to refer to to Philadelphia area. Therefore, the article should be moved back to Delaware Valley or to Philadelphia metropolitan area, the latter which would make it clear what the article is about. Dough4872 02:09, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  undiscussed move from Delaware Valley to Greater Philadelphia 

message: An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect :Delaware River Valley and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 3#Delaware River Valley until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  Mdewman6 (talk) 23:43, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Delaware River Valley" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: Quickly counting, there are currently 61 municipalities in the Infobox.  I highly recommend limiting the list to those that are largest or most economically or culturally significant. StillWatchesCartoons (talk) 20:51, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I checked the Hampton Roads article, and that lists independent cities plus counties, so maybe list the counties here rather than all of the cities? Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 21:14, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox has way too many cities