Talk:Tone cluster

message: Shouldn't it be listed that these are often used as horror film melodies when combined with b5s?
Great! Do you think you could write the appropriate sentence or two? I'll be happy to copyedit it, but I don't have the knowledge to compose it. Best, Dan  —DCGeist 20:58, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Horror/sci fi film cliche

message: What does "in music and in Western tuning" mean? Music includes western tuning, so should it say especially or should it be only? Hyacinth 13:02, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Western turning

message: Shouldn't it be noted that there are tone cluster power chords i.e. CC#D? Would this be assumed though?
Yeah, still...Threnody is that for 2 minutes. Not pleasent.
:Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 20:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tone cluster power chords/arpeggios

message: I believe that R. Murray Schafer's choral Epitaph for Moonlight (1968) contains an example of a cluster which is not "truly simultaneous": "A tone cluster is constructed by dividing each choir section (soprano/alto/tenor/bass) into four parts. Each hums a note one semitone lower than the note hummed by the previous section, until all sixteen parts are contributing to the cluster." I propose that in place of "truly" we put "conceived or perceived as" simultaneous. Hyacinth 02:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (I enter with trepidation)  Hi there. If I correctly understand your description of the Schafer (not a piece I know), then the cluster that it contains doesn't exist until all the voices have entered (or anyway, enough of the voices have entered). A tone cluster, simultaneous in the pure sense of the word, is the result of the overlapping voices. The definition of tone cluster need not refer to the attack points of individual notes or voices. Do I misunderstand you? Alternatively, can you find a different example of what you want to demonstrate (i.e. a tone cluster which requires the definition to include "conceived or perceived as simultaneous")?  JH(emendator) 13:12, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

text: No. That would not be awesome. That would be a very silly thing to have in an encyclopedia article concerning the tone cluster.—DCGeist 04:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why would it be silly? We need this article to be clear to the lay reader. We need a sound file and an image of what a cluster is and what it is not. We cannot assume that  a point that would be clear to you would be clear to most readers. Hyacinth 06:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Example of not simultaneously struck cluster

message: It would seem that a tone cluster must be thought of as a tone cluster or appear to listeners as tone clusters. Why would this not be true? Hyacinth 06:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there a way to make them "perceived as simultaneous" without sounding them simultaneously? I think adding "perception" to the issue just makes the definition less clear. I would also remove "fully" because it is too vague. Perhaps "sustained" would be a more accurate substitute for "sounded fully" though I'm not sure it helps the definition. My preference would be for simply "the notes are sounded simultaneously", and I don't think the difference between tone clusters and ornaments is really a matter of how "full" or how "simultaneous" a sound is. - Rainwarrior 04:07, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, I don't think trying to define a tone cluster in the lead by distinguishing it from ornamentation is helpful. It seems to suggest that they are more similar than they are and that they could potentially be confused for one another. I'd suggest omitting that half of the sentence entirely. The functional distinction between ornamentation and tone clusters is that ornamentation is used to draw attention to the harmony or the relationship between harmony and melody; tone clusters are a more of an independant sound, they do not accentuate any harmonic relationship, but rather obscure it (Cowell's The Tides of Manaunaun comes to mind as a prime example of how they remain distinct from any accompanying harmony). This is a more involved distinction to make though, and I don't think it should be made quickly like this in the lead. If done, it should be done later in the article where there is room for more thorough explanation. - Rainwarrior 04:07, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think these are both good points, Rainwarrior. Would you like to do the edit?—DCGeist 05:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll make the small change suggested, but I think the whole lead really deserves a rewrite. I find it pretty hard to follow. - Rainwarrior 06:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lead edited largely by Calliopejen1 and then me. I've put the comparison between clusters and ornaments into the Music theory and classification section created by Calliopejen1, essentially using your language for the second two sentences of the graf. Take a look and edit as you feel appropriate.—DCGeist 19:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Perceived or intended 

message: I'm not sure there's a suitable GA category for this article. I've put it under "Music," obviously, and then under "Genres, styles and music eras," which is the best fit that I can find. Atonality is in that section, but it sits a bit uneasily next to articles like Alternative rock and Ska. If you feel I've put it in the wrong place, let me know and I will move it. (Or you can do so yourself, which might be simpler.) MLilburne 23:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Musical techniques. Hyacinth 03:11, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categorization of article 

message: "In music" establishes the quickest and clearest context and is the only type of example given at Wikipedia:Lead section#Establish context. DCGeist, since this is the first discussion of this change in the lead section there can be no consensus. Hyacinth 04:51, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I very mildly prefer to begin with "in music", for the reason given by Hyacinth, though I think the difference is extremely subtle. - Rainwarrior 03:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead: context

message: This good article ought to have a section on notation of clusters, as this has evolved (at least on the piano) away from notating all the notes that are to be played in favour of a more graphic notation. It needs a few pictures that I shall try to find time to provide, unless someone else is equipped and has more time. (Posting in advance as feelings seem to run high on this page!)   JH(emendator) 21:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds great. Cowell's notation method--cited in the article--essentially does what you describe, so in that sense the "evolution" is not recent. Or are you speaking of different, newer methods? Any illustration would be very welcome.—DCGeist 22:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi there.  Yes, starting with Cowell and moving forward. Perhaps not a new section but images in line where appropriate. I work as a music editor and can produce copyright-free images of pretty much anything you like in the way of illustrations. My Wikitime at the moment is down to drip-feed, but please post requests for specific images here. I'll first redo the present illustration which could be better resolution and needs respacing (see crashing treble clef on LH stave!). J JH(emendator) 08:16, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

text: New image (Tone_cluster.jpg) now in place. Better? JH(emendator) 11:12, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks great. Thanks much.—DCGeist 06:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notation of clusters 

message: Hi there.  I linked Ornstein, because I was re-reading the Other exponents subsection on its own, and came across the name: without a first name I was unable to get through a disambig page when I searched within Wikipedia for "Ornstein". This page is full of proper names, and Ornstein appeared more than a screen up (as it happens when I was reading) so I didn't spot it. IIRC, Wikipedia policy is that multiple links to the same page are a matter of judgement; I'm happy to be over-ruled, but then I'd like to see "Leo" added here: I don't think we can assume people read Wikipedia pages top to bottom. JH(emendator) 15:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The trend in Wikipedia best practices, as reflected in Featured Article Candidacies and Reviews, is to eliminate redundant links (as well as to be much more judicious about linking standard dictionary terms and familiar words in general). I've added "Leo" per your observation.—DCGeist 18:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ornstein link 

message: Well, I only saw Kraftwerk mentioned with their 1970 work. But also in later albums there ARE clusters! You only have to listen to Elektro Kardiogramm (2nd half). Aren't that clusters too?? -andy 84.149.124.27 (talk) 21:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Very likely, but we need verifiable sourcing in order to discuss them in the article.—DCGeist (talk) 05:42, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kraftwerk (again) 

message: I'm uneasy about the cut-and-dried ruling out of notes from membership of a tone-cluster if they're sounded before or after a cluster (prolongation, yes?). Acciacciaturas are of course not admissable, but it's not an easy delineation to make. TONY (talk) 09:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope the discussion of the example I added--the Schafer choral piece--to the Music theory and classification section now addresses this.—DCGeist (talk) 16:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  simultaneity? 

message: Could someone put the used pictures on wikicommons for use in other wiki languages? Regards, DTBone (talk) 14:56, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  pictures

message: ::The modern keyboard is designed for playing diatonic scales on the white keys and pentatonic scales on the black keys.
This is not correct. The modern keyboard is designed to play music in any of 12 keys. There just happens to be 7 diatonic scales which can be played on only white keys, and 5 pentatonic scales on black keys. However, there are (at least) 42 diatonic scales which require both white and black keys, and 28 pentatonic scales which require both (perhaps more) This caption should be improved -- 20:34, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, you can only play seven diatonic modes on the white keys, this gives 7x12=84 posible diatonic scales of which only seven occur exclusively on the white keys.  There are only five particular pentatonic scales on the black keys: there are numerous other permutations of the 12 pitches that include only 5 notes.  B major uses only two white notes but all the black notes...  --Jubilee♫clipman 02:52, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caption error 

message: I was led here through the featured article Leo Ornstein. Unlike many articles on music theory on Wikipedia, I found this one quite straightforward and, for a layperson such as myself, easy to understand. Reading the Ornstein article, I wanted to know what tone clusters were. I actually understand it now! Good job. Now if someone could help me understand serial music....  freshacconcispeaktome 00:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Props to those editors who've worked on this article 

message: I've spent (or wasted) far more time looking for Extremes of Conventional Music Notation than anyone I know of. When I wrote that something of Cowell's was "probably" the largest, etc., etc., or that something of Schwantner's was "perhaps" the largest, etc., etc., I qualified those statements based on over 20 years of seeing records of this type overturned by music I hadn't known about before. Then someone removed the qualifiers... I'm not sure my qualifiers were the best possible choices, but I'm very sure that making flat statements about these extremes isn't a good idea. I've re-added the qualifiers.  --DonAByrd  03:46, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Be careful changing wording that might have been carefully chosen 

message: Hello, I just read the wiki-article on Nick Drake and thought he could be mentioned in the "In popular music" section. Especially since this article seems to mention mostly piano players.
Cheers Ineverheardofhim (talk) 11:02, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nick Drake used tone clusters to 

message: ..comprising at least three consecutive tones in a scale.
Does this mean "pitches" (ie the UK "notes") or "two semitones"?  If the former, then I suggest the following non-US/UK language: ..comprising at least three consecutive pitches from a scale.  --Jubilee♫clipman 02:59, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Ambiguity in lead

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Is the context of tone here musical tone, or musical note (as mentioned in the music disambiguation page)?
MfortyoneA (talk) 20:40, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The context here is both "musical tone" and the second of the three senses described in the "musical note" article, which largely overlaps "musical tone".—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:19, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  ok which would you recomend pointing that link at .. at the minute i wrote tone (music)#Sound to get the musical senses in the DAB page. I'm guessing from what you wrote 'musical tone' is best because it overlaps. (and ok, I speed read wrongly making me think more of a sequence of notes..  a tone cluster seems a bit like a chord aswell, the tones can overlap.. thats what made me hesitate originally.  ) I know you're not really supposed to link to a DAB.. my mentality here is trying to narrow it down till it's right. ThanksMfortyoneA (talk) 20:11, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

text: I think what I am trying to say is that musical tone and musical note (sense 2) are essentially the same thing. It is too bad that the current Wikipedia protocols are still too primitive to allow linking to two different targets simultaneously. Alternatively, it is shameful that the Wikipedia Logic Police are so inadequate in their jobs that they still allow overlaps in categories like this to occur. Aristotle would be scornful.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:30, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  can anyone confirm.. 

message: Last spring and summer, Spencerpiers made a series of additions to the article that have expanded our understanding of the early usage of tone clusters. However, I am concerned that the heavy focus on the two Bach examples violates both WP:Verifiability and WP:Undue. I can't find a single verifiable source that has "identified" these as tone clusters, and even if we were all to overlook WP:Verifiability—which we really can't—they are obviously too minor as examples to bear the focus they're now given. Does anyone believe that there is a source (or sources) out there that identify these as tone clusters which they can track down? And does anyone believe there's a verifiable basis for claiming them to be vastly more significant than the many, much clearer examples mentioned in the article that don't have any media at all associated with them? As an aside, in terms of article design, their inclusion really makes the "Before the 1900s" section appear over-cluttered. — DCGeist (talk) 00:51, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Bach matter 

message: Apparently edit summaries are insufficient to deal with a misattribution problem. In 1721, André Cardinal Destouches and Michel-Richard Delalande produced a famous opéra-ballet in four acts titled Les Élémens. Delalande's brother-in-law, the violinist Jean-Féry Rebel, was at the time conductor of the Paris Opéra, and directed the first performance of the opera in 1721. Delalande died five years later. In 1727 and 1728, Rebel composed (in two parts) a purely instrumental ballet with the same title. It does not incorporate any of the Destouches/Delalande material, but does have the purely orchestral "Cahos" (Chaos) opening number with the famous tone cluster. The Destouches/Delalande opera has a completely different opening, also titled "Cahos", with three vocal parts, but no tone cluster. This is why I have changed the link, so it will not point to the wrong composition. It has therefore become a red link. No doubt Rebel's work ought to have an article of its own, and it would be helpful also if the article Les Éléments, which is about a modern French vocal ensemble, could include information about whether they took their name from the Destouches/Delalande composition (as seems most likely), or from Rebel's recently better-known piece. These three titles should also share the same capitalization scheme, as explained at MOS:FR. Both the initial word and the first noun are capitalized, as in the present title of the article on the performing group.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:49, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rebel vs. Destouches/Delalande 

message: The contention that Scott Joplin wrote clusters needs to be justified with at least one example. TheScotch (talk) 17:25, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scott Joplin 

message: If you allow minor thirds in a cluster as in the right-hand part of the currently notated example, then obviously the term "cluster" becomes meaningless. A cluster is a set of at least three notes no larger than a whole-step apart (however the steps are spelled) sounded simultaneously. You can't make a cluster out of augmented seconds or minor thirds. TheScotch (talk) 17:33, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor thirds and augmented seconds