Talk:Acharya S/Archive 2

message: Some points I'd like to make:
#We need to keep the Criticims section. This is standard Wikipedia format with any controversial topic.
#We need to provide more attribution in the Criticisms section. The Wikipedia does not criticise anybody, the Wikipedia only reports what criticisms others are making. We need to say who those "others" are. From the "external links" it looks like there are only two major critics of Acharya that we are using, so it shouldn't be that hard to say "These are the points critic 1 makes. These are the points critic 2 makes."
#Rebuttals are fine, but let's keep them in the Criticisms section. They also need attribution, just as the criticisms do. "Critic 1 says... Acharya (or supporters of Acharya) responds by saying...". It might also be helpful to link to related articles (such as the life story of the historical Buddha) to help the reader discover what mainstream authors have to say about these topics.
#We don't really need extensive block quotes from her work. A link to specific parts that are of interest might help though. Same thing with criticisms and rebuttals. Summarize.
#We need to compromise. The goal here is to create a consensus article. Around here, consensus is more-or-less defined as a 2/3rds majority. So, consensus doesn't necessarily have to be unanimous (although that is the ideal, and voting is used only as a last resort), but neither POV is big enough to go it alone. The "final" (nothing here is ever really final) product is going to have to have support from both sides. So, please, be polite. If you can't be polite, leave. 
That's my three cents. crazyeddie 22:31, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Crazyeddie's Bit

message: By the way, read this:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/fiction.html
Actually what Im ding is posting standard critiisms.
Yiour propoganda is to advance her. You do not try to simply rpesent what she is, and forbid life details that are knwon, inf aovur of presentign ehr as a world leading Historian and rleigiosu schoar, wose books have clary been accepte din academia and prove JEsus didnt exist.
Th problem hre is that, its not true. SHe is a COnspriacy theories who is not recognise dby any major instetution, andveen her "Appotunent" intot he CSER is useless as its an Atheist apologist group.
Yoru removal of the critisisms of her owrk si also telling. You say that I post derogitory remarks abotu her. I dont.
I simply post what others have said about her. THis is standard pracitce at Wikipdia, rather you like it or not. Wikipedia doesnt just advance an dpriase people.
Zarove 22:07, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not equal sign heading 1 

message: What you are doing is posting the derogatory statements of two apologists, whose sole purpose is to protect and refute anyone who dare challenge their beliefs and an author who agrees with her and says the exact same thing but has chosen to alllow his elitism to hold her work in contempt. 
I have yet to make any comment that is in itself a promotional of her work. You can go to hell for lying the same as stealing. I have not forbidden anything. The only time I removed any criticism was to illustrate what an unbiased article would look like with neither criticism or nor counter criticism. Her life details, as you put them, are what they are. You have them posted after having lost the battle to disparage them. Her works reflect hundreds of authors over the centuries who have all said the same thing. You do not refute them, your endeavor, instead, is to trash the messenger instead in the hopes that the message will be lost. The fact that you post what little you can find against her but refuse to allow anything be said in her behalf, tells its own story.
That Christianity is founded in the myth of Jesus is the message of your very own detractor of Acharya, to wit:
"Christ may be said to be a fiction in the four senses that 1) it is quite possible that there was no historical Jesus. 2) Even if there was, he is lost to us, the result being that there is no historical Jesus available to us. And 3) the Jesus who "walks with me and talks with me and tells me I am his own" is an imaginative visualization and in the nature of the case can be nothing more than a fiction. And finally, 4) "Christ" as a corporate logo for this and that religious institution is a euphemistic fiction, not unlike Ronald McDonald, Mickey Mouse, or Joe Camel, the purpose of which is to get you to swallow a whole raft of beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors by an act of simple faith, short-circuiting the dangerous process of thinking the issues out to your own conclusions."
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/fiction.html 
Her appointment to the "CSER" puts her in league with some very heavyweight scholars and to dismiss them all as atheists, as though that is somehow pertinent, in no different than your sources being disqualified because they are Christian apologists. Beside.you have no idea their beliefs are. Some may be Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan, Unitarian Universalist et al and not atheist at all.  The boad brush or generally sweeping attempt to summarily exile any opposin view is a use of those propaganda techniques that you accuse other of. 
The removal of criticisms comment has already been answered.
That you feel that you speak for Wikipedia is also very telling. I'll tell you what. You put everythinig that has been said and the actions taken on this article before a Wikipedia review board and see what they have to say about what you and your Admisistrators have been doing here and see what they have to say about it. 
I have responded to every criticism you have presented, explained them and shown them in the light of reason, only to have you and your compatriots ignore them in favor of these typical propagandistic tactics. Belief begins where fact ends. Facts have no need of belief to exist. A conspiracy is that in which two or more conspire to and end:
From admin Alteripse's talk page. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alteripse#Acharya_S_2
Acharya S
I say we oughta take off and nuke it from orbit - it's the only way to
be sure. Any ideas how? crazyeddie 06:12, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not equal sign heading 2 

message: Rebuttals previously posted:
In response to each of the above criticisms, the following are offered in the hope that any serious attempt at neutrality, fairness and objectivity will allow them to stand.
Define primary research. Whoever these mysterious detractors are, they apparently haven't the foggiest idea what research means, much less primary and secondary research. Primary research is information gathered through some form of interaction with other people. Primary research is obtained through meetings, one-on-one interviews, focus groups, surveys and etc. Secondary research is information gathered through literature, publications, broadcast media, and other non-human sources.
Primary research is specific data gathered for a study. It is gathered by by an investigation of a subject or a phenomenon either directly or indirectly. Direct communication includes in-depth interviews, telephone interviews, surveys and so on. If an investigation involves 5000 years old subjects, it is glaringly obvious that any claim as to a lack of primary research is a bogus attempt to smear and discredit.
Note: there is a difference between primary sources and primary research. A primary source is an accounting of records as described or recorded by someone who either participated in or witnessed an event or who obtained their information from those who did, such as those found in newspaper accounts, letters, diaries, notebooks, interviews including original records created at the time of a historical event.
It is just as easily said that her research is in-depth, unbiased, accurate and up to date. Given a choice between a one-sided, biased, inaccurate and outdated opinion without sources and a work filled with them, an honest intellect will have to choose on their own by a thorough investigation of the claims.
The Christ Consipracy contains 1200 footnotes. These are two of those noted. Out rightly condemning the entirety of these works is a ruse to disparage. What was quoted of them that is taken as being "suspect authority" and "lacking in primary research".
To state that "Her work shows ignorance of the topics on which she writes, and in particular of the Hindu and Buddhist traditions"
is the opinion of the writer and bears no more weight than any said to be for her works. There is no ignorance quite so complete as that which condemns what it does not know. In making such statements, it is clearly shown that The Christ Conspiracy and The Suns of God were not even so much as opened.
This is pure fabrication. Acharya does not claim that Krishna and Buddha were crucified, in fact, the chapter on this is named "Krishna Crucified? In venturing the question, she cites Remsburg, Jacolliot, Doane, Guigniaut, Lundy, Moor, Higgins, Graves, Taylor, et al in their various contentions on the subject. Acharya herself goes on to report of other godmen in other cultures who purportedly suffered the same fate stating that: [the] 'mark of the cross upon the forehead was common among a number of pre-Christian peoples, including the Persians and Hebrews. Obviously, we possess traditions and images of crosses and crucified gods not only in the Pagan world at large but also in the Israelite/Jewish world, and in the very area where Christianity is purported to have been created."
In the chapter "Mythra, Light of the World" a reference to Attis and Dionysus was in regard to human and animal ritual sacrifice. Dionysus was mentioned as having been from a story of Hermes having been born in a cave and wrapped in swaddling clothes placed in a basket or manger. In Krisna Crucified she notes that Lundy finds that Agni, Krishna, Mithra, Horus, Apollo, and Orpheus to be types of Christian verities. She explains that Orheus was depicted on a cross, although this image apparently dates to the 2nd or 3rd centuries. Regarding Quetzalcoatl... she quotes Lundy and in explanation says "In other words, the "bearded man," Quetzalcoatl, is not only an "air god" but also a sun god, and these Mexican rites are not "Christian" but proto-Christian. In fact, as abundantly demonstrated, these various important religious motifs and rites existed long before the Christian era, and were not copied by Paganism from Christianity but the other way around."
Nearly every contention made in her books are explicitly due to so many independent sources that to say otherwise only depicts the depths a believers fervor will go to substantiate their own beliefs. As regards the list of characters she states:
"The Jesus story incorporated elements from the tales of other deities recorded in this widespread area, such as many of the following world saviors and "sons of God," most or all of whom predate the Christian myth, and a number of whom were crucified or executed." with a footnote that says:
"Many on this list come from The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors by Graves. This is not to suggest that all of these godmen characters were utilized in the formation of the Christian myth, as overt contact had not occurred in such places as Mexico or Bermuda. Also, modern orthodoxy does not allow for the dates provided by Graves, i.e., that Quetzalcoatl originates in the 6th B.C.E., a date far too early in the orthodox perspective. However, we utilize this list to demonstrate that the same concepts are found worldwide with and without cultural exchange, because they are derived from the same astrotheological observations. Also, we are in concurrence with the "ancient advanced civilization" theory ("Atlantis") that would allow for one or more centralized civilizations to have spread throughout the world during a very remote period in protohistory, thus taking with it the well-developed Mythos and Ritual, which would then mutate into the various forms found around the globe."
To be point specific. 11/12/05  -el Lobo
:Well, I'll take out the comment about hallucinogens, if it cannot be supported by a solid citation. Otherwise I'd like to make it clear that articles here are not subject to any sort of 'approval' by their subjects. Charles Matthews 11:12, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Which is amply proven here. After all, this is what it is about, is it not? Check this out. 
From admin Alteripse's talk page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alteripse#Acharya_S_2
Acharya S I say we oughta take off and nuke it from orbit - it's the only way to be sure. Any ideas how? crazyeddie 06:12, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Paragraph five