Talk:Imperial unit/Archive 1

message: I am not sufficiently expert to disentangle this article and related ones, but it has a fundamental error in it.  The article describes the following relationship:
   Imperial (alias English Customary) -- "irregularly standardized"
      US
This is incorrect.  The true relationship is
   English Customary ("irregularly standardized")
      Imperial (standardized 1824, refined 1878, recently obsolete)
      US (standardized)
This article needs a small rewrite and a renaming to "English units" (or something of the sort), and a new "Imperial unit" article needs to be written.
--John W. Kennedy 13:28, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is an incorrect definition 

message: The U.K. Statutory Instrument 1995 No. 1804   doesn't really constitute an official redefinition of any units, as is currently claimed in this article:
*British law now defines each Imperial unit entirely in terms of the metric equivalent. See the 
Units of Measurement Regulations 1995.
If it did, the U.K. would have a weird official definition of the hour, with a nautical mile officially defined as "nautical mile (UK) metre 1853 metres" and a knot officially defined as "knot (UK) metres per second 0.51477 metres per second".
Statutory Instrument 1995 No. 1804 is intended merely as a compilation and restatement of pre-existing definitions.
In other words, notwithstanding Statutory Instrument 1995 No. 1804, the official definition of those Admiralty miles remains 6080 feet, and the official definition of those feet remains one-third of the official definition of the yard as 0.9144 m given in the Weights and Measures Act of 1963, the statutory implementation of the international agreement of 1959 (which also includes the current, official definition of the avoirdupois pound as 0.45359237 kg).
Gene Nygaard 14:43, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official definitions 

message: The Imperial system is also called the English system, the British system or, perhaps more correctly, the Avoirdupois System.
... says the article. However the Avoirdupois System is only for weights (or was that masses) and doesn't include length, area and volume.  So more correctly? I think not.
: If you really wanted to be more correct you could call it the Egyptian (Horus Eye Fractions) or Biblical system (1: Kings, Sea of Solomon, Forest of Lebanon) and recognize that it wasn't invented out of whole cloth by the English. Its the statute mile of Queen Elizabeth that is the English invention. Rktect 13:04, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Avoirdupois System

message: Imperial volume measures
Name                	Definition                      	Litres
1 fluid ounce       	                                	= 0.028 413 062 5 L
1 gill              	= 5 fluid ounces                	= 0.142 065 312 5 L
1 pint              	= 4 gills                       	= 0.568 261 25 L
1 quart             	= 2 pints                       	= 1.136 522 5 L
1 wine gallon       	= 231 cu in                     	= 3.785 411 784 L
1 gallon            	= 4 quarts                      	= 4.546 09 L
1 peck              	= 2 gallons                     	= 9.092 18 L
1 kenning           	= 2 pecks                       	= 18.184 36 L
1 bushel            	= 2 kennings                    	= 36.368 72 L
1 firkin            	= 9 gallons                     	= 40.914 81 L
1 kilderkin         	= 18 gallons                    	= 81.829 62 L
1 barrel            	= 36 gallons                    	= 163.659 24 L
1 hogshead (of beer)	= 54 gallons                    	= 245.488 86 L
1 quarter           	= 8 bushels                     	= 290.949 76 L
1 puncheon          	= 84 wine gallons               	= 317.974 589 856 L
1 hogshead          	= 2 barrels = 72 gallons        	= 327.318 48 L
1 butt              	= 126 wine gallons              	= 476.961 884 784 L
1 tun               	= 3 puncheons = 252 wine gallons	= 953.923 769 568 L
1 chaldron          	= 32 bushels = 256 gallons      	= 1163.799 04 L
1 last              	= 80 bushels = 640 gallons      	= 2909.497 6 L
 Wet
1 fluid ounce	          	         	= 0.028 413 062 5 L
1 gill       	          	=   5 oz.	= 0.142 065 312 5 L
1 pint       	= 4 gills 	=  20 oz.	= 0.568 261 25 L
1 quart      	= 2 pints 	=  40 oz.	= 1.136 522 5 L
1 gallon     	= 4 quarts	= 160 oz.	= 4.546 09 L
 Dry
1 peck    	            	=   2 gal.	= 9.092 18 L
1 kenning 	= 2 pecks   	=   4 gal.	= 18.184 36 L
1 bushel  	= 2 kennings	=   8 gal.	= 36.368 72 L
1 quarter 	= 8 bushels 	=  64 gal.	= 290.949 76 L
1 chaldron	= 4 quarters	= 256 gal.	= 1163.799 04 L
1 last    	= 80 bushels	= 640 gal.	= 2909.497 6 L
 Brewery
1 firkin            	             	= 9 gal. 	= 40.914 81 L
1 kilderkin         	= 2 firkin   	= 18 gal.	= 81.829 62 L
1 barrel            	= 2 kilderkin	= 36 gal.	= 163.659 24 L
1 hogshead (of beer)	= 3 kilderkin	= 54 gal.	= 245.488 86 L
1 hogshead          	= 2 barrels  	= 72 gal.	= 327.318 48 L
 Wine
1 wine gallon	= 231 cu in            	=   1 w.gal.	= 5/6 gal.	= 3.785 411 784 L
1 puncheon   	                       	=  84 w.gal.	=  70 gal.	= 317.974 589 856 L
1 butt       	                       	= 126 w.gal.	= 105 gal.	= 476.961 884 784 L
1 tun        	= 3 puncheons = 2 butts	= 252 w.gal.	= 210 gal.	= 953.923 769 568 L
Christoph Päper 4 July 2005 18:10 (UTC)
PS: Use four tildes to sign your contribution.
:::: How many cubic inches in any Imperial unit is just a matter of doubling the last cube
:::: drachm fluid British .023281 cu in (24/2024 cu in)unit netto
:::: drachm fluid US .024233 cu in (25/2024 cu in)unit brutto
:::: noggin British 8.669 cu in
:::: quartern = 1/2 Imperial gallon = 138.71 cu in cube with side 5.18"
:::: bucket = 4 Imperial gallons = 1,109.7 cu in cube with side 10.35" 1/8 crc (Old English fote) 
:::: bushel (dry)= 2219.3 cu in = 1/4 cubic royal cubit, cube with side of 13"
:::: strike 2 bushels (dry)= 4438.6 cu in = 1/2 crc cube with side of 16.43"
:::: bag or sock = 3 bushels (dry)= 6657.9 cu in = 3/4 crc cube with side of 18.81"
:::: coomb (cubit) = 4 bushels (dry) = 8877.2 = crc with side 20.7" = 32 Imperial gallons
:::: barrel (dry = 36 Imperial gallons =9987.01704 cu in with side 21.53"
:::: seam or quarter = 8 bushels (dry)=17,754.4 cu in with side 26"
:::: butt = 126 Imperial gallons = 34,954.9 cu in with side 32.7"
:::: chaldron = 32 bushels (dry)= 71,017.6 cu in with side 41.4"
:::: wey = 40 bushels = 88,772 cu in with side 44.6"
:::: puncheon = 70 imperial gallons = 155,351 cu in with side 53.76"
:::: register ton = 100 cubic feet = 172,800 cu in with side 55.7"
:::: last British = 80 bushels (dry) = 177,544 cubic in with side 56.2"
:::: rod British = 1000 cubic feet = 1,728,000 cu in with side 120"
Rktect 13:25, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table(s) 

message: Yes, something like those wet, dry, brewery and wine tables was what I'd had in mind.  The way I see it, it's better to split these up rather than having them all lumped in together.  Better because one can more readily see the connexions between the units rather than puzzling over how many kennings there'd be in a barrel.  Would there be a point in having both?  
I think I'll put them in the article however, how about the following (notice I've made soe minor changes)?  I think that the extra column makes the ratios between units all the more clear.  It also makes clear the fact that bushels and firkins are used for different things.  
By the way, I'm not so sure about including the 6 wine gallons = 5 imperial gallons as it's an approximation but this is not made obvious in the table & thus could throw people off. Jimp 6Jul05
: Well, there is and was no Imperial unit “wine gallon”, only an (older) English one (see above), but if it had been adjusted like the other wine measures in 1824, it would probably be exactly 5/6 Imperial gallons. (There is also no US customary unit “wine gallon”, by the way, but maybe there was 200 years ago.) I marked it in red for that reason. I also think that the currently stated value for the (wine) hogshead is wrong, compare the templated table above. Christoph Päper 6 July 2005 05:52 (UTC)
Okay, there is and was no wine gallon in the Imperial system.  So it therefore doesn't really deserve a place in the list of imperial volumes after all.  However, you mention that the other wine measures had been adjusted.  So, are the units tun, butt and puncheons part of the Imperial system?  If so, what are their values?  
::: All my knowledge about these is in the tables in #Existing Templates. Most of the information therein came from sizes.com IIRC. I'm not sure, but they seem more like preferred/only allowed barrel sizes to me than real units or measures, which were only used in few businesses anyhow and are now long obsolete. I also don't know about the importance of either brewery (beer and ale) or wine casks, but it is important to differnetiate. The change from 252 wine gallons (pre-1824 and current US wet gallon) to 210 imperial gallons in the size of a tun was probably in tolerance limits of that time (from 953.92 to 954.7 litres). In brewery measures the absolute sizes changed, too, but the number of gallons (now imperial, ale&beer/brewery gallon before) stayed the same (as the 1803 values), because they are close to each other for the imperial gallon is a water weight based redefinition of the (282) cubic inch measure based beer gallon. CMIIW Christoph Päper 7 July 2005 16:47 (UTC)
70 Imperial gallons are 318.2263 litres however the value for one puncheon given in the table (at present) is 317.974 589 856 litres i.e. 84 U.S. gallons.  Were these other wine units adjusted in 1824 after all?  If the puncheon had been adjusted to 70 Imperial gallons, then this is what the table should be stating.  If the puncheon had been abolished, then there need be no mention of it on this page (except as an historical note).  The same goes for the tun & butt, of course.
Here's a site that indicates that the puncheon is 70 gal. http://home.clara.net/brianp/quickref.html
::: Sure it is, but it used to be 63 wine gallons and is still---well, if it's still in use there, where it was also called pon---63 US fluid gallons (of 231 in³ a.k.a. Queen Anne gallon, previously (7/2)²·π × 6 in³). The puncheon (or tertian) is unambiguous, because it is a wine measure only, unlike its alias firkin as well as gallon, hogshead and barrel.
 Wet
1 fluid ounce	          	         	         	= 0.028 413 062 5 L
1 gill       	          	         	=   5 oz.	= 0.142 065 312 5 L
1 pint       	          	= 4 gills	=  20 oz.	= 0.568 261 25 L
1 quart      	          	= 2 pints	=  40 oz.	= 1.136 522 5 L
1 gallon     	= 4 quarts	= 8 pints	= 160 oz.	= 4.546 09 L
 Dry
1 peck    	             	            	=   2 gal.	= 9.092 18 L
1 kenning 	             	= 2 pecks   	=   4 gal.	= 18.184 36 L
1 bushel  	= 2 kennings 	= 4 pecks   	=   8 gal.	= 36.368 72 L
1 quarter 	             	= 8 bushels 	=  64 gal.	= 290.949 76 L
1 chaldron	= 4 quarters 	= 32 bushels	= 256 gal.	= 1163.799 04 L
1 last    	= 10 quarters	= 80 bushels	= 640 gal.	= 2909.497 6 L
 Brewery
1 firkin            	             	          	= 9 gal. 	= 40.914 81 L
1 kilderkin         	             	= 2 firkin	= 18 gal.	= 81.829 62 L
1 barrel            	= 2 kilderkin	= 4 firkin	= 36 gal.	= 163.659 24 L
1 hogshead (of beer)	= 3 kilderkin	= 6 firkin	= 54 gal.	= 245.488 86 L
1 hogshead          	= 4 kilderkin	= 8 firkin	= 72 gal.	= 327.318 48 L
 Wine
1 wine gallon	= 231 cu in            	=   1 w.gal.	= 3.785 411 784 L
1 puncheon   	                       	=  84 w.gal.	= 317.974 589 856 L
1 butt       	                       	= 126 w.gal.	= 476.961 884 784 L
1 tun        	= 3 puncheons = 2 butts	= 252 w.gal.	= 953.923 769 568 L
P.S. The four tildes only works when you're signed in & I don't awlays sign in.  Thanks for the tip anyway. Jimp 6Jul05
: At least they ensure the correct date. Christoph Päper
Ah, yes, it's July not June.
Jimp 6Jul05
: I agree; the wine units are not Imperial units.  Nor are poppyseeds and barleycorns, and I'd question kennings too.  Put in a link to medieval weights and measures instead.
: There is an imperial barrel of 36 imperial gallons, half the hogshead listed here, which may or may not be officially defined as two imperial barrels as well (it is a unit which was 63 wine gallons, two of those old barrels).  Gene Nygaard 6 July 2005 10:23 (UTC)
:: That ought to be what used to be a brewery, beer & ale, ale, or beer barrel. Someone applied "1 hogshead = 2 barrels", which is true for wine but not beer (1½), to the wrong barrel. Gee, so many reasons against using any of this! Christoph Päper 7 July 2005 16:47 (UTC)
Yeah, why oh why do people cling to such a jumbled old system ... but they do.  I've removed the wine units, poppyseeds and barleycorns. In their place I've added links to Tun (unit) and Medieval weights and measures. Jimp 7Jul05
:Hmmm... I only put the barleycorns in as a mild joke, about a year ago, and I was slightly astonished, revisiting this page recently, to find that they had not only survived all this time but had spawned poppyseeds as well.  I'm rather sad to see them go, but I wouldn't seriously defend them.  However, they really shouldn't be written off as medieval; my grandfather (born 1876) used to recite the length table to me beginning with them, and I've no reason to doubt that that was the way he'd learned it at school.  seglea 23:48, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Four Tables

message: Substituted at 15:01, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment