Talk:Ukyo Kuonji

message: I'm not reverting this any more, but there are still inaccuracies.  
:This from the guy who said "Shampoo is not a killer" with a straight face, and talks about not stating "opinion as fact". ;) Seriously though, I think I've been pretty thorough with trying to make it as factual as possible, but I'll consider any points you bring up.
::So, I see a day wasn't enough to clear your head as you start immediately with a personal attack.  Fine, I'm not talking with you anymore.
:::Personal attack? You call _that_ a personal attack? (To avoid answering my concerns?) Considerably less so than calling what I write nonsense. I thought it was valuable to point out that you're in no position to claim that I'm more POV than yourself, and tried to do so in a more lighthearted manner, but got another pompous reply. 
One, he's kneeling not because of pain (in fact he's shown smiling, page 97 vol 9 center bottom frame, in a typical 'I've reached my limit' way), 
:He's having a worn tired look and his body is smoldering after grimacing in pain during the attack itself, and recovering to push himself up, after the gunpowder flakes destroyed the "rubber yakisoba noodles" he thus far was unable to break himself (at least without taking a pause). I'll upload the pages where Ukyo's prowess is shown (94-97, 101) for general overview.
but because the glue batter locked his legs up (you can see this on page 96 vol 9 where he's stuck in 3 frames in a kneeling position, and again on the next page where you see the white batter all over his legs after the explosion).  
:But as you should know that came later. It was shown as completely loose until his legs came in contact with the grill.
His expression is always that of anger, not pain.  
:No, he's most definitely grimacing in pain with wide open eyes in the first panel on page 97, where he's struck with the gunpowder flakes. In the following frame his body is smoldering on the ground covered in soot, while he's pushing himself up. He then has a very worn down and tired look but intense ticks of anger popping on his head and knits his fist in fury. The following page he's severely pissed off and starts to beat Ukyo up to the point of slashing with the sharp end of her spatula, with Ukyo barely managing to get her head away in time. He's most definitely not going easy on her any more.
Although he has been hurt (we see the usual scuff marks on his face) that's a big stretch to say he's near unconscious when we don't get any of the usual signs like stars, swirl eyes, flat on the ground, etc.  
:Not a big stretch no, a very small one. He's pushing himself up with a very worn look and smoking body, but the point is moot. I already agreed that a very small stretch nonetheless makes it better to say that he's knocked down and in pain, which is extremely explicit.
The other bits, with the attacks are not qualifying them properly as all the landed ones, save the flour, were due to the battle conditions. Once free of those she didn't land a one and it's important to present it in that context because that's the whole point of the battle conditions coming into play.
:Correction. He's fighting defensively at the start, but still does his best to avoid her attacks, and initially easily avoids her spatula swipes, then says !Yow!" out loud when her shuriken almost tag him, but burns his hand on the grill since he wasn't prepared for being surrounded by it. Within the 5mx5m area inside the constraints Ukyo manages to snare his feet with the glue despite his attempt to avoid it with a serious expression on his face. She then snares him with her yakisoba rope and tries to strike him, but unlike the noodles, the glue didn't appear to inhibit his movements much at this point (not enough time to harden) as he rolls out of the way with his feet free from the floor. However he again gets burnt by the hot grill and the glue now visibly hardens, sticking his feet together, partially immobilising him together with the noodles at this point. Ukyo knocks him down with a giant brush under his feet before he can land from his jump, and then strikes him with gunpowder flakes, which brings us to the above mentioned situation. 
:The "battle conditions" were the hot grill and initially fighting defensively. That's it. He still had plenty of room to avoid her attacks, and got tagged by the glue anyway, despite trying to avoid it. When becoming intensely furious to the point of risking to cut her in two, i.e. fighting full force he obviously wiped the floor with her, but when he strictly did his best to avoid her attacks she managed to tag him anyway. If you wish to argue that he didn't go all out when fully motivated, you'd have to argue that he held back against virtually every opponent out there, and he's stated outright that he generally fights full force to not dishonour his opponents, especially against men, which he thought Ukyo to be at this point.
As to Ryoga flour bomb, we don't see her actually throw it at him. We know it was used only.
:Not the point. She's pretty clearly shown to throw it on the ground straight in front of him. The point is that she caught him head on grimacing in the centre. He immediately adapted and avoided her swipe with his superior speed and skill, but she still caught him that one time, and managed to parry a few of his umbrella strikes.
This is in vol 9, page 131 at the bottom. Because it's only 1 frame, and we only see the results, we can't tell what she did with it. Looking at the smoke pattern, it is not coming from Ryoga, as if it hit him, instead it is highest around Ukyo herself, where it is at least 3 or more feet above her and goes off panel, and only at waist level directly around Ryoga, with off to the side a bit it stretching to just above his head by less than a foot. 
:The smoke is more intense around Ryoga, and he's the one grimacing in the centre, not her. I don't think she hit him with it, and that's not the point of a smoke grenade, it's to throw it on the ground in front of an enemy, catchning him/her in the effect. She succeeded in this endeavour.
Her arm position is also as if she's tossing into the air.  Finally, the 'BOOF' is above her head.  All this leads to the much more likely conclusion that she tossed the bomb into the air above her and that's where it exploded.
:The smog is thicker near the ground, so that's where I think she threw it, while the sound effect was placed in the only panel area left with enough room, and still having to be place vertically.
Now, as to the battle, here's the blow by blow of Ranma vs Ukyo (vol 9, page 90-121).
*We start with Ukyo and Ranma on the grill (Ranma unaware of this) and Ukyo attacking several times with her giant spatula, all dodged by Ranma, Ranma ending up kneeling on her spatula until she tosses him off.
:Yeah. I have no problems with that. He's strictly keeping to avoid her giant spatula swipes.
*Next, Ukyo attacks with thrown spatulas, Ranma again dodges, but onto the grill portion for the 1st time realizes the battle field.
:He dodges with difficulty given his loud "YOW!" shout. Otherwise agreed.
*Ukyo uses the glue batter for the 1st time.  Ranma dodges the thrown stuff, but lands in it and then Ukyo explains about it's binding properties.
:More precisely, given the angle of her attack, that it's a rather 'prolonged' one (lots of glue being thrown) and that the catching moment is left off-screen, he was either caught by the 'back' part of the attack or Ukyo positioned it to catch him when he landed.
*Now, while Ranma is stuck and unable to dodge, she uses the noodles and snags him with them, further restricting his movement.
:He is not unable to dodge. Just two panels afterward you explicitly see that his legs are neither stuck to the floor, nor together at this point.
*Now, even while restricted Ranma dodges her next attack with her spatula, breaking free from the glue but going into a kneeling posture and sticking his lower legs to his upper legs while trying to avoid the grill again.
:Incorrect again. The glue is explicitly shown as extremely loose at this point, splattering all over when struck by the spatula and hanging like liquid from his feet. It doesn't harden until the middle of next page. He didn't break free from anything as you should well know, nor was he shown as able to once it hardened.
It should be noted, Ranma is still not taking things too serious here, smiling and talking with Ukyo, and not attacking her in any way.
:Also incorrect. He has a very serious expression when trying to avoid her glue attack. Again when caught in it. Even more serious when caught by her noodles. Yet again very serious when barely avoiding her giant spatula. Screaming and crying in pain when he accidentally sits on the grill, and stutters an attempt to still calm her down with a very annoyed tick and bared teeth extremely forced expression. He's then very wide eyed and surprised when slipping on the floor, falling with the backside of his head first.
*While like this, Ukyo uses the oil to make Ranma fall onto his back then attacks with the explosive flakes which catch Ranma.
:He's in mid jump, and she takes the opportunity to swipe the ground beneath his feet with oil, making him fall backwards.
*Ranma is scuffed up, but now mad.  Ukyo is also surprised, "!", quite likely due to the lack of effect on the attack.
:She's surprised that it didn't knock him out despite that his body is sooted and sizzling, including SSSSSS sound effect. He was wide-eyed in pain just previously and pushing himself up while the restraints have been blown open, falling off him in tatters. He's now extremely pissed and motivated since she's finally managed to cause him serious pain. 
*He uses Ukyo's own noodles, catches her, spins her and tosses her from the ring. He is also apparently free from the batter completely now as he is able to give chase.  This is his first serious attack.
:Of course, but not remotely his first serious attempt to avoid her own. At least we're agreeing that he's not holding back at this point.
*Ranma chases Ukyo, Ukyo tries to attack but Ranma stops her with his foot and disarms her.
:Ranma is catching up with Ukyo and provokes her into attacking by calling her 'a sissy who should fight like a man', which had the intended result but for a different reason. (Ukyo doesn't like that he doesn't remember that she's a girl)
*Ranma slashes down with the spatula cutting Ukyo's clothes, then bends up the battle spatula, making it clear to her that he's very mad.
:Ranma slashes down with the edge of the spatula, utterly furious, with Ukyo barely managing to bend her upper body far backwards to avoid any bodily damage, but the front of her shirt isn't so lucky.
*Ranma then tries a kick which Ukyo dodges while switching to asking him to wait a second.
:Ukyo dodges it while trying to cover up her breasts and wanting to get time to tie them up.
*Ranma and Ukyo end up falling together where Ukyo uses the flour bomb for cover (this is her one and only landed attack under even terms).
:You use the word 'even terms'. I use the words 'outside of the hot grill and with Ranma not strictly fighting defensively any more' to be more precise. I tend to see things 'matter of fact' according to the most sensible logical pattern I can ascertain. Ranma is obviously far superior to Ukyo when going all out. I've hardly suggested anything remotely otherwise. But by the far lower than Ranma, Ryoga & Mousse, 'regular female martial artist' standards it's very impressive that she managed to tag him when he strictly kept to trying to avoid them. 
*Inside the equipment room, Ukyo tries to escape under cover, but Ranma tackles her (an unusually blunt tactic from Ranma, probably due to his anger), inadvertently grabbing her chest.
:Nah, the edged spatula swipe was extremely blunt for him, due to being too upset to see the potential consequencs (he's only intentionally tried to go for the throat twice that I remember) but this isn't anything remarkable. 
*Ranma is startled and Ukyo slaps him, and then we get the real story.
:Yup
*We semi-resume the battle (not really, Ranma is not fighting here anymore) when Ranma takes Ukyo back to her battle spatula and repairs it.
:Yeah, he once again avoids all of her giant spatula swipes. It doesn't seem nearly as effective/swift as her shuriken and special attacks.
*Ukyo again tries to hit him with it repeatedly, every time missing.
:Of course. Your point being?
*Only when Ranma starts calling her cute does she land a blow (this one comical).  He repeats this and she slaps him in embarrassment (again comedy scene).  Also notice Ranma is once more showing the scuff marks from Ukyo's comedy hits.
:More like he persistently walks straight into them for a comedic effect.
So in total, she landed: arguably the batter (although she missed the throw, Ranma did land in it, but didn't appreciate the threat), 
:She either tagged him with the end of the large chunk of batter or aimed it to catch him.
the noodles (because Ranma was stuck in the batter),
:No he wasn't. This one is undisputable.
the oil (because Ranma was stuck in kneeling position), 
:He was in mid-jump
the flakes (now on oily ground on his back, still stuck in kneeling position, still bound by the noodles, and this is her only damaging attack landed under any conditions),
:Well, he hit his head to the floor, and got scorched by the grill two times, and 'under any circumstances' implies that she's never ever caused any damage during the entire series, since she's too weak to do so. She's obviously shown as strong enough when hitting him with her giant spatula (for example twice during the onsen race) or shuriken (chasing him and Nabiki, or for the 'wedding ring') for comical purposes, and even did so with the slap here, but isn't remotely skilled enough to stand up to him when he goes all out.
and the flour bomb (the only one under decently fair conditions with no hindrances other than falling together with Ukyo).
:No, he had no more restraints than herself to move inside the 5mx5m area within the grill and had plenty of room to move aside. Like it or not.
No truly damaging attacks were landed on even terms, and the only one on uneven terms required 3 hindrances on Ranma (batter, noodles and oil),
:'Even terms'=No grill and going all-out, rather than just trying to avoid her attacks. No disagreements there. 
as well as his initial reluctance to attack to get him into that situation.
:Uh, yes, he's just trying to avoid them, which technically should be far easier than simultaneously trying to attack and avoid. At least going by my own boxing, ju-jitsu or karate msparring & blocking.
In fact, only the flour's success cannot be traced to the battle field conditions and restrictions on Ranma.  
:I've never disagreed about the grill and holding back part, just that you're trying to somehow rewrite it no matter how far-fetched justifications you have to use.
Now this line: "During her introduction, Ukyo gave Ranma more trouble than Shampoo ever managed, repeatedly striking him with attacks and knocking him down in pain on the ground, despite his attempts to avoid them, although Ukyo's better performance is at least partially due to being surrounded by a hot grill and that Ranma initially held back."  
Is this really repeatedly striking him with attacks, not really, and this should be reworded. 
:Yes it is neccessary, perfectly balanced, and highly warranted. It's matter of fact. She did catch him with several attacks despite his attempts to avoid them, as long as he kept to being strictly defensive. 
It implies she actually hit him repeatedly with damaging attacks which isn't the case.
:No it doesn't imply this. It says that she hit him with several attacks, which she did. The glue (although this took a while to harden from the heat of the grill), and more importantly the noodles, then oiled his footing, and finally caused him severe pain with the gunpowder. She also manoeuvred him into touching the grill with her 'spatula shuriken' but that doesn't count. Later she hit him in the face with a flour bomb and avoided two of his full focus attacks.
It also ignores the reasons why she landed those 'attacks', implying again Ranma was free to act at the time when for every one he was restrained in some manner or, in the first case, didn't know of the threat.
:He knew the threat. He had a very serious expression after being burnt by the grill. He was free to move when struck by the glue and the noodles. The 'oil-brush' expertly made the ground slippery just before he landed, making him hit his head to the floor, and set up the immediate gunpowder flakes. These are all attacks. They're part of her special technique arsenal and work in combination with each other. Restraining attacks are generally even harder to land than damaging ones, and the noodles in particular were extremely effective.
Something like 'During her introduction, Ukyo gave Ranma more trouble than Shampoo ever managed, using her chosen battlefield to good effect and successfully using several of her special binding techniques and finally her explosive Tempura flakes.  However, this is at least partially due to Ranma initially holding back and the hot grill battle field.'
:Chosen battlefield on the other hand definitely strongly implies were severe advantages, which she didn't have, just a hot grill that she had to avoid as well and confined them both. She was more used to it, that's all. They fought within a challenge rink area, much like Ranma, Ryoga, Mousse, Ryu etc have done in the past, but in a much smaller space. 
:Something like "During her introduction, Ukyo gave Ranma more trouble than Shampoo ever managed, repeatedly hitting him with restraining attacks he was unable to break out of, despite his attempts to avoid them, and after knocking him down on the ground, striking him with her explosive tempura flakes, making his body sizzle in considerable pain. Although Ukyo's better performance is at least partially due to being surrounded by a hot grill and that Ranma initially held back." would be more to the point.
Really I feel it is completely due to those conditions, but that's a gimme since that is disputed.   
:No it most definitely isn't 'completely', not remotely actually. She managed far better than Shampoo did when he simply went for avoiding and restraining her. Effortlessly taking her down in 2 seconds despite this. I don't particularly like either Ukyo or Shampoo, but I try to keep the explanations straight as I interpret them. 
For Ryoga it is (vol 9, pages 129-133):
*Ukyo starts off by tossing several spatulas at Ryoga as he is engaged with Ranma which he avoids.
:Yup, although with some effort, but likely due to the ambush.
*Ukyo attacks with her battle spatula, again Ryoga avoids.
Yup, although he shouts "GYAA!" out loud, so it seems to be a close call.
*Ryoga is about to attack but is told by Akane that Ukyo is a girl, pausing his attack.
Yes
*Ryoga apparently doesn't believe this, and starts attacking again which Ukyo parries against.
Exactly, which is damn impressive for a Ranma fiancée
*Ukyo uses the flour bomb (again we don't know how she used it, only that she used it) gaining a second of opening.
Yup, she manages to gauge how to best catch him in it, but he's too quick and skilled for her.
*Ukyo attacks, but Ryoga dodges again, and appears above her, ending up cutting her clothes, startling Ukyo
Yup
*Ryoga is about to press the attack but Ranma intercedes ending that fight.
:Yes. He shows Ryoga her breasts to completely freeze him up and sucker-kick him throug hthe school wall. Smirking afterwards.
Here we don't have any offensive attack landing, damaging or otherwise.  The flour may have, but again since the art doesn't show a hit or imply a hit with the smoke pattern or her throw posture, saying it's a hit is a stretch.
:No it's most definitely not a stretch. He's explicitly shown as caught in the centre of it, grimacing and shutting his eyes, which is the entire point of the flour bomb (or an archetypal 'ninja distraction grenade'). She succeeded in her endeavour, but not the follow up attack.
However, to her credit (which is her best showing, better than anything she did against Ranma in my opinion) she did parry Ryoga at least briefly.
:Yes she did, and as shown elsewhere, Ryoga is considerably swifter than Mousse and just short of Ranma. Although this was very early in the series before he caught up in speed again, so that may have factored in.
Although it is possible Ryoga may still have been holding back due to what Akane said, this isn't supported by the dialog so it's doubtful.
:Yup
Still as interesting as this is in itself, we lack a comparator for other female characters.  Here just the word 'landed' is the problem.  'Used' would be more accurate as the panel is inconsistent with it being thrown at Ryoga, but is consistent with it being tossed into the air.  
Derekloffin 21:50, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nah, Ryoga was caught straight in the centre, grimacing, shutting his eyes, and shouting "GWAH!" She hit him with the attack period. Whether she threw it in his face or not is irrelevant. He was caught in it, which was the point. If you want to suggest something along the lines of "caught him in the attack", to avoid misunderstandings, feel free. Dave 00:02, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not to open this can of worms again, but to clarify my perspective. My observations/conclusions of all available instances indicate that Ukyo and Shampoo are exactly equal in regular, no special-techniques, armed combat, but that Ukyo would gain an edge it they started using their full arsenals, and that she didn't have Shampoo's benefit of a grandmaster teacher since childhood in Cologne, but still managed to reach this level despite her 'handicap'. That's it. I have no illusions about Ukyo being anywhere close to the level of the male main cast members (well, possibly Kuno). Dave 19:56, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Nah, it's pretty usual for Wikipedia fare, and if it wasn't thorough it wouldn't be reliable, just a lot of thin air. Dave (talk) 15:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute 

message: This seems to be a stretch and I question this, despite what is said on the article about how some of  her techniques are ninja-like.  BrokenSphereMsg me 20:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a stretch, but her entire style is very ninja-like. As I understand it many ninja also became food vendours during the 19th century. Regardless, she doesn't live like one, so as I mentioned previously, it's a borderline case. I think keeping it/pointing it out is a rather interesting aspect, but do as you want. It's only through extension anyway. Dave 20:39, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To this, I'm personally of the opinion that lists should be kept to the clear cut examples, or highly notable ones.  I find too many lists are polluted with some really stretchy pages.  However, either way I don't really care that much.  If their is some kind of list manager, then perhaps it should be discussed with them as to what they want, but I don't think there is. Unless someone has a serious complaint I'm not really worried about it. Really only things like the LGBT tag on Konatsu's page being used very liberally annoys me, but that's an altogether other matter. Derekloffin 22:44, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

text: In any case, shouldn't the neutrality marker be removed. I think the controversial (?) bits were modified to a mutually satisfactory matter-of-fact version. Dave 22:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, as the new version still asserts many of the same disputes that old one did and hasn't been significantly edited for content or by contrast supported in comment.  However, there is a section dispute label which would be more fitting as it is just the one section. Derekloffin 22:44, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So what are the current problems? It seems very matter-of-fact. In any case, I moved it as requested. Dave 22:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Decatting from fictional ninjas.  BrokenSphereMsg me 21:58, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Inclusion in fictional ninjas category?

message: I think Ukyo and Ucchan should redirect here especially since nobody's using them.  Am I right or am I right? 138.69.160.1 20:02, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. Why not. Dave 14:24, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Dan Spanielson 19:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now there's a few more Ukyo, so I really think that the redirect should be deleted.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by BrianGo28 (talk • contribs) 13:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. There's Ukyo Katayama, a former F1 race driver, and also Ukyo Tachibana from Samurai Shodown.--Paraiba (talk) 22:51, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirects