Talk:Outer Mongolia

message: The article is called "Outer Mongolia", but only discusses the more-or-less synonymous "Northern Mongolia".  Orcoteuthis (talk) 15:30, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Outer v. Northern

message: Isn't OM synonymous w/ Mongolia (country). This should redirect there and the info contained in this article should be incorporated into its history section. --Jiang 06:26, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes.  A-giau 02:21, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, the Mongolian Government doesn't recognise this name, it is in not in any way relevent to the present day Republic of Mongolia.  86.45.77.161 (talk) 12:06, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: country

message: I pretty certain I've read somewhere that ROC (Taiwan) has recognized Mongolia as an independent state, or at least renouced all claims to Outer Mongolia and surrounding regions, sometime during the 90's. Unfortunately I can't remember the source of this infomation, except that the recognition was done through a legislative act. Can anyone verify? --Alan
The ROC recognized the statehood of Mongolia on 30 January 2002, not in 1990s, though there are still controversies as to whether it is constitutional. See my recent article edit to find it.--Jusjih 15:19, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On May 21 ,2012 , the Mainland Affairs Council released a press said that Outer Mongolia is not a part of Republic pf China.有關外蒙古是否為中華民國領土問題說明新聞參考資料
I can't read the PDF that is cited in this statement. Mang (talk) 21:43, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  ROC claims on Mongolia 

message: The literal translation of Manchu tulergi monggo would be "Outer Mongols", not "Outer Mongolia". Even if we ignore the distinction between people and geography, tulergi monggo does not mean Outer Mongolia as in English. The tulergi monggo were autonomously controlled by Mongol ǰasaγ (jasak in Manchu) as opposed to "Inner Mongols" like the Chakhar and the Tümed who were directly under the Manchu Emperor. In other words, the tulergi monggo included not only the Khalkha but also the Ordus, Kharachin, Khorchin and others of Inner Mongolia. "Outer Mongols" and "Inner Mongols" correspond to 外藩蒙古 and 內屬蒙古 respectively in Chinese. As for Inner/Outer Mongolia, the Manchu phrase "dorgi jasak i monggoso" (Mongols of[who was ruled by] inner ǰasaγ) referred to the Mongols of banners in Inner Mongolia. --Nanshu 07:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The error originally inserted by  was even worsened by . --Nanshu (talk) 13:55, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: tulergi monggo

message: I tentatively replaced the phrase "administrative division" with "region." Leaving the Uriyangkhai aside, we can hardly say that Outer Mongolia was an administrative division of the Manchu Qing Dynasty because Outer Mongolia was hardly a concrete political entity. The Manchu empire applied divide-and-rule policies to the Khalkha though not so tightly as to the South. The situation is complicated as the empire spent nearly a century to establish the administrative system, and we need to take into account civil, military and religious affairs. In short, the Khalkha were divided into numerous banners. Four aymags, which were simultaneously leagues, were just liaisons. There was no such thing as a central government of Outer Mongolia. --Nanshu (talk) 13:55, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not an administrative division 

message: Northern Mongolia is simply literal translation of Ar Mongol. It doesn't intend to "elude" anything. There is no political implication in it. I explained it a lot at various places in WP. Gantuya eng (talk) 10:26, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you had mentioned elsewhere that Ar Mongol means Mongolia located at the north of something (and in the case, the Gobi desert), right? But that is not equivalent to the English term Northern Mongolia, nor a complete literal translation. As I once mentioned elsewhere too, there is also a Chinese term "漠北蒙古" that means "Mongolia located at the north of Gobi", which is clearly equivalent to the Mongolian term Ar Mongol in meaning. Nevertheless, while both this Chinese term and the equivalent Mongolian term may be used as a history or cultural concept and do not have political connotations when used, the English term "Northern Mongolia" (which is also not an exact translation of the term 漠北蒙古 or Ar Mongol) does seem to have such connotations, and such terms are usually used by supporters of certain view. Apparently language differences are also an important factor to consider. --Chinyin (talk) 06:20, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It was I who mentioned this. I must confess I don't know who uses "Northern Mongolia" as a term in English. If you collect some sources, you might be able to demonstrate that there is indeed some nationalist connotation in this term. But what I and Ganaa consider more important is how the term ar mongol in Mongolian is used. As I said in my edit summary, it is the most customary term if Inner Mongolians (most of which do not hold pan-Mongol sentiments) want to refer to the Mongolian state. I suppose there are two possible renderings into English: one, more customary, being simply "Mongolia", while the other, more segment-based, is "Northern Mongolia". "ar" does not precisely mean "northern", but it is quite a close correlate: if one wants to translate it into English in an explicit and idiomatic way, "Northern Mongolia" will be the translation of choice. If have changed the text slightly, so that the metalanguage is about the Mongolian word ar mongol and not about the (much less significant) English term Northern Mongolia. G Purevdorj (talk) 16:57, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no problem to mention or point out the Mongolian word ar mongol or the Chinese word 漠北蒙古 (this was mentioned by me). But it should not give an impression that the term is equivalent to the English term Northern Mongolia. In fact, there is also a Chinese word 北蒙古, which is a direct translation from the English term  "Northern Mongolia", is certainly a term with political connotations. Clearly, there is a difference between the term 漠北蒙古 (ar mongol, a more cultural or geographical term) and 北蒙古 (Northern Mongolia, a more political term) which needs to be taken care of. --Chinyin (talk) 17:10, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Is my new version ok for you? I tried to take your concerns into account. G Purevdorj (talk) 17:17, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's not that whether the version is ok for me or not. But I think If the English term Northern Mongolia is mentioned, it should point out at least the possibility to have political connotations for this term. In addition, it's not that these non-English terms are used instead of "Outer Mongolia" in English, so it needs to be further reworded. --Chinyin (talk) 17:32, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

text:  BTW. there are also Chinese terms 漠南蒙古 and 南蒙古 for Inner Mongolia (*not* southern part of the state of Mongolia), similar to 漠北蒙古 and 北蒙古 as above (for Outer Mongolia). But 内蒙古 has became the standard Chinese terminology for Inner Mongolia. --Chinyin (talk) 21:09, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Political game with linguistics 

message: The massive expansion of this article - particular for history - is unnecessary. This article should - at most - briefly summarize the Mongolian history articles up to 1921, then hand off to other articles for much of everything after 1921; the articles related to independent Mongolia effectively take over from there. The expansion just duplicates content in other articles using less accessible (non-English) sources. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 02:18, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: While it’s reverted, add a few links on the see also box that is pertaining to it. This will deal the history of Mongolia in full detail. 174.89.100.11 (talk) 02:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: 174.89.100.11, in general your habit of throwing everything at something makes a mess (that somebody else  needs to address) rather than helps. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 03:23, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: See bottom. That needs to be improved. 174.89.100.11 (talk) 11:03, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You should notify the various WikiProjects that may have an interest in this article. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 18:42, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: April 2023

message: I propose merging Outer Mongolia into History of Mongolia. Though its small, that article should merge with the latter while the name section will be moved to the Mongolia#Etymology section.174.89.100.11 (talk) 04:03, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Since you didn't gain any support (nor any support) for your proposal, and didn't carry through the change, I'm removing the merge templates. Feel free to try again. CapnZapp (talk) 10:08, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merger