Talk:The Master Musicians of Jajouka led by Bachir Attar

message: Ok, I have made a START but there is a lot more I have to go through from the history of these bands and to add references. I just need some time. These disambiguated articles don't have to be written in a single day.
Emerman 22:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Start

message: Having reached the point where the single page on the MMoJ was split into 2 (Joujouka and Jajouka), what is the point of a third page: Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar? As far as I can make out, Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar and Master Musicians of Jajouka are about the same musicians. Jonur 16:05, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I agree and have redirected to avoid having to retype everything twice. The page was needed but only as a redirect. Emerman 11:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Jajouka/Joujouka split

message: Since we're going to work on footnoting everything, I know there was a separate group in the 1980s after the death of Bachir Attar's dad as there was a bit of a power vaccum lasting until an early 1990s reunion of the factions. There seemed to be another faction when Hamri produced his album in 1995. 
[Refactored for sensitivity my comments. I just asked mainly for good sources when people add info if possible in future work on the article. I will leave it to future users. Emerman 21:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  RE: Hamri managing separate group and timetable footnotes help needed 

message: The page Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka has a notice on it that 'The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed.'
I'm surprised there isn't a notice, on this and other related pages, that the neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed. I would recommend it.
This is a very interesting discussion, but the exact issues in dispute are unclear. Could Emerman please give a concise summary of his claims? This issue is very sensitive because so many of the parties are still living, and at first glance I wonder if this is the correct forum to resolve them in. It doesn't appear that there is any dispute concerning these issues any where else in the public domain.
The argument here also seems very one-sided, and interested parties should be given notice of the dispute here, and have an opportunity to respond.
My particular interest in this is over the effect of Westernising native tradition, and the international law implications. I'm going to post notice of this case to some specialists in human rights and native law, such as early Irish and native American, and see if there is any precedent on these issues. I'll get back to you in a while.
I would advise caution in proceeding too hastily with this matter. I'd also suggest narrowing discussion to one forum, since it is being cross-posted over numerous pages such as  Master Musicians of Jajouka and 
The Master Musicians of Joujouka and even Jajouka Tuathal 00:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I answered at the Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka talk page. Emerman 01:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarify the issues in dispute please

message: this article is two pages the link to the second page is at the bottom. The second page continues with an interview with Bachir Attar and Frank Ryne re the controversy surrounding the re release of the Brain jones presents the pipes of Pan at Joujouka/Jajouka record. plus other details. make sure you go to page 2 too —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.70.218.186 (talk) 01:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  no stone unturned article 

message: i am saddened to see that several deseased people are listed as current members in the group info. please update! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.70.218.186 (talk) 01:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am trying to correct the current and former group members based on information from the All Music Guide. If anyone can furhter assist in accurate information about the musicians, please do so.  Thank you. - cgilbert(talk|contribs) 03:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  group members

message: removed incorrect category as the article is still in total dispute —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.70.218.186 (talk) 01:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You actually removed the whole WikiProject Biography banner.  I have since replaced it but modified the class rating to Start instead of B.  Please do not remove this banner in the future.  Thank you. - cgilbert(talk|contribs) 03:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  b class removed as article pov oin total dispute

message: Recently, someone has vandalized the Bachir Attar page on Wikipedia and changed the name of his group to Joujouka. And most unfortunately, Frank Rynne & Joe Ambrose have libeled and slandered Paul Bowles and friends of Paul Bowles in their Brink.com interview. This is not to be taken as fact, and if that were the case, anyone can make up slanderous statements and post them as gospel truth. Frank Rynne & Joe Ambrose have been attacking Bachir Attar and the Master Musicians of Jajouka for years, and they have recently taken to libel and slander living friends of Paul Bowles, falsely accusing them of condoning and/or participating in the sexual exploitation of children. This is sleaze "journalism" at its very worst. Poor Paul Bowles has also been portrayed as a murderer, child molestor and worse by this duo, and it is not proven. The onus of proof is on them, and until that is settled one way or another, Wikipedia should keep the Brink.com links off Wikipedia as it is mere heresay and accusations by Rynne/Ambrose. Meanwhile, will some administrator kindly revert the Bachir Attar article to what it was before someone completely vandalised that? Thanks. Unfortunately, any person can vandalize on Wikipedia, but libel and slander are not to be tolerated according to Wikipedia's terms of use.BKLisenbee
:Libel concerns and slandering aside, personally speaking, i am against using the Brink.com links. Brink.com is not notable enough. The website declares itself as a "group of companies is a bite size conglomorate of entertainment companies"! You do the math. However, i am also concerned by the massive sockpuppetry and block evasion in all related articles. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up ® 18:19, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Libelous and Slanderous links to a Brink.com interview."

message: I've just protected this article and a few other related articles as per the mediation process going on at User:FayssalF/JK. Thanks for your understanding. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 15:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article protected

message: There is no such group only Master Musicians of Joujouka and Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar. The formerthe musicians of the village the latter a solo commercial group . Move to redirect
User:Opiumjones 23 23:48, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  the group represented by this article does not exist it is the other link [[Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar]] that this page represents.

message: The following request to move a page has been added to Wikipedia:Requested moves as an uncontroversial move, but this has been contested by one or more people. Any discussion on the issue should continue here. If a full request is not lodged within five days of this request being contested, the request will be removed from WP:RM.  —Dekimasuよ! 00:36, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Contested move request

message: Opiumjones 23 (talk) 01:22, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion Moved to Mediation at [[User:FayssalF/JK]]

message: I am a Moroccan-American who grew up in Morocco (I also happen to be a musician and a drummer more specifically) and I can attest that this music is no different in beats/music composition than a number of other "musics" from the North of Morocco. I am not here to attack the music or the group but I take offense at a lot of unverified content listed on this page, which I am sure is purely a PR/marketing rethoric used to mistify this group and futher their commercial appeal, by that I am talking about the ties to the Royal family, and alleged roots going back too long back in history to make any sense -among many other things-.  
"Most people who live in Jajouka are members of the Ahl Sherif tribe, which means "the Saintly." The Attar clan of Jajouka is the founding family of the village and keepers of one of the oldest and most unique surviving musical traditions. The music and secrets of Jajouka have been passed down through generations from father to son, by some accounts for as long as 4000 years" that fact itself doesn't make any sense as the "Attar" and the "Ahl Sherif" names are clearly Arabic names and "Sherif" actually means "noble" and is used to denote families who can trace their ancestry to the Prophet Mohamed who was born in 570 AD in Mecca, present day Saudi Arabia........ 
Another one of my points; a number of the songs that I've heard from this group are mostly in Arabic, as such, how can they claim to be 4000 years old, and we know Morocco didn't come into contact with Arabic until the Islamic conquests in the 700s, furthermore, some of those songs have a religious sufi theme which again, emerged in the East (Persia and beyong) in the 1300s and probably did not get to Morocco until later..... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.16.248.2 (talk • contribs) 20:54, 8 January 2009‎
: This article and Master Musicians of Joujouka‎ have had a long history of dispute; see User:FayssalF/JK for the details.  It has been relatively quiet for a while, but I know that I, for one, was pretty burnt out with the whole situation, and seeking any improvement in either article has been way down on my list of priorities.  Having said that, unreferenced verbiage such as "they possess baraka, the blessing of Allah, which gives them the power to heal, and the endurance required to play some of the most intense and complex music around" really has no place in Wikipedia; I also just changed an instance where the subject was described as "our legendary group" (my emphasis).  I don't mean to pick at an old wound but I am compelled to add  to this article, as it is currently written. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 23:31, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I should also point out that I don't see these same issues affecting Master Musicians of Joujouka.  I don't want to give the impression that I'm deliberately picking on one article and not the other. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 00:10, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Two paragraphs in question were especially problematic, and their text was either copied directly from, or closely paraphrased, the Jajouka.com website, all of which runs afoul of WP:COPYPASTE, WP:PARAPHRASE and WP:COI.  I've removed the two paragraphs and made a couple of other edits in the process (). -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 17:26, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claims by the group 

message: Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.jajouka.com/the_full_story.html. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you.  Gyrofrog  (talk) 17:26, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright problem removed 

message: http://movies.nytimes.com/2013/08/06/movies/jajouka-something-good-comes-to-you-a-bands-tale.html -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 17:37, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  New film 

message: (Cross-posted to :Talk:Master Musicians of Joujouka) I am not sure why Lee Ranaldo's essay was removed as a source.  The paragraph beginning with "In the time since my visit to Jajouka I have been made aware of a situation ..." is an even-handed, neutral account acknowledging (if not describing) the schism between the two musical groups.  I propose restoring a brief explanation, based on Ranaldo's writing, to both articles. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 23:12, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added a "Schism" section to briefly deal with the split between the two groups.  I hope I have done this in as neutral a way as possible.  I have used the same text and references (including the Lee Ranaldo piece) in both articles.  The split should certainly be mentioned. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 02:24, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

text: Another potential source: New York Times article from 1995 (). this appears (without a link) under "Further reading" in the Jajouka article. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 17:33, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

text: And another, from The Independent, 1995 ().  This was at User:FayssalF/JK, where FayssalF was attempting to moderate the article issues; one of the involved parties rejected it outright over the "Jajouka/Joujouka" spelling, but not for the actual content itself (so far as I can tell; see also TL;DR).  It is certainly suitable for citing the fact that the schism exists. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 18:00, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schism 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on The Master Musicians of Jajouka led by Bachir Attar. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080830090948/http://www.telquel-online.com/239/arts1_239.shtml to http://www.telquel-online.com/239/arts1_239.shtml
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050225234220/http://www.westword.com/Issues/2001-08-30/calendar/nd2.html to http://www.westword.com/Issues/2001-08-30/calendar/nd2.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061124121729/http://www.thewire.co.uk/archive/essays/ranaldo.html to http://www.thewire.co.uk/archive/essays/ranaldo.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070226002421/http://worldmusic.nationalgeographic.com/worldmusic/view/page.basic/artist/content.artist/master_musicians_of_jajouka to http://worldmusic.nationalgeographic.com/worldmusic/view/page.basic/artist/content.artist/master_musicians_of_jajouka
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080509131603/http://www.synergeticpress.com/video.html to http://www.synergeticpress.com/video.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:44, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: https://howardshore.com/the-road-to-jajouka/ and https://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jii/4750978.0003.217?view=text;rgn=main. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, provided it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you.  Gyrofrog (talk) 21:12, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright problem removed