Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Macedonia-related articles/Archive 2

message: This talk page has got rather long and difficult to follow: for the sake of clarity, could people please list below what issues are still outstanding? -- ChrisO 06:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll attempt to archive what I consider closed. In any case please visit the archive. NikoSilver 10:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Outstanding issues

message: An issue of exactly the kind that this MoS needs to resolve has cropped up in Template:European Union Labelled Map. Sysin, a user with a long history of Greek ultranationalist POV-pushing, is repeatedly deleting the spelled-out name "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" from the map, leaving only the unexplained acronym FYROM. This MoS already mandates that the FYROM acronym shouldn't be used by itself on images and the general MoS likewise requires acronyms to be spelled out the first time they're used. Unfortunately Sysin, as I know from experience, is not the kind of editor who's easily persuadable. Perhaps Niko could have a word with him? -- ChrisO 06:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've noticed the ANI incident you filed (Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Macedonia-related_disruption). He seems to have a non-ultranationalist related case there (acronyms/abbreviations exist for many countries in that map due to size limitations). I'm sure this can be sorted out without resort to a trail of ad hominem characterizations (to which I emphatically disagree in general) which can be seen in Talk:Macedonia/Archive_2#A_new_approach, in the ANI thread, and now here. Anyway, what exactly do you want me to say? NikoSilver 10:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I also notice that this is a proposal, and that there are bound to be many disagreements from all sides, especially given how contentious this issue is. Those disagreements should be taken into account and molded into a consensus if we want to succeed. NikoSilver 10:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Almost irrelevant: In my experience, very few editors have ever been persuaded and changed their mind from their original position in any dispute I've been involved (and I almost chase these). In my opinion those editors deserve our greatest respect for their self-defiance in doing that. I was thinking of making an essay titled WP:ADMIT the other day (and I probably will). NikoSilver 10:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A case in point

message: The issue was discussed partly in /Archive 1#Expand and must be elaborated. I archived anyway. NikoSilver 10:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Languages

message: This MoS will help towards peace and understanding between the two groups. I have no objection to the republic's internal name 
being used in the proper context - but it is reasonable to object when certain people inject it inappropriately as a means of making irredentist claims on articles about Greece, or when people try to use the anything-goes rules of wikipedia to white-out the nomenclature chosen by the United Nations, the European Union and other international organizations. Most of my edits are common sense (do not edit original texts, acronyms are sometimes nuavoidable, etc.). 
My proposed term for the language prior to 1941 may be a bit more controversial - I am open to any reasonable suggestion that is not anachronistic. Regards, sys < in 12:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: My edits

message: Over 40 countries voted in the Eurovision song context. Only one, Montenegro, used the term 'Macedonia'. All the others used 'Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'. As for the FY/ROM, it was one of the few countries to refer to its name 'Macedonia' as opposed to its capital, and the only one to do so 3 times. It seemed obvious that the young lady had been coached to do so. Otherwise, well done Fyrom, nice song but Ukraine or Bulgaria should have won. Politis 13:04, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Eurovision FYROM

message: I've made a few changes. I hope the only one to be controversial is the first, removing the footnote from the paragraph on images. I simply feel, that if we're going to use the same convention, we shouldn't try to repeat it shorter. If it can be shortened, shorten it above. I've boldened the meat, to replace any loss of force.  Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:25, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Image text

message: Title says all. Shall we wrap? NikoSilver 14:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good. I made some cosmetic changes, and promoted the "quotes" issue to a subtopic, as I consider it a major one. Let's go!sys < in 19:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

text: There have been no changes of note during the past week: I propose that an announcement is made in the relevant topics ("Macedonia", "Macedonia (Greece)", "Republic of Macedonia"," Greece", etc.) for votes (At least that's how I understand the procedure). sys < in 12:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made two tweaks; rephrasing one former/latter sentence because I had to go into the history to see what Niko meant, and toning down to suggest that, if it's clear that the Republic is intended, we can say "The Albanian-speaking population of western Macedonia", without confusion with the periphery Western Macedonia. If these are acceptable, I'm fine with this. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OKsys < in 19:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Note: this is a suggestion, not a condition of my approval. Announce at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) and the other places, and I think we can upgrade this next week.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not too important, I guess, but RoM saves the ambiguity and is also [quite vehemently] objected to (by those south of the republican border). I'd equate opposition to plain Mac. to that for RoS; not that for FYROM. In that sense, RoM is the golden section for expressing the northern POV. NikoSilver 21:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done VP, btw. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine; I've tweaked to suggest that these are not the only acceptable abbreviations.  Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:03, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The reversed order is more successful than I expected; it at least gets all the general guidelines, like quote exactly, ahead of the specifics. But then I'm biased. I'll ask Radiant what he meant.  Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we're talking about different revisions. I'd say the present one is fine. >Radiant< 09:53, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is that all? 

message: Proposal that we move this out of 'proposed' this weekend. Any objections? sys < in 10:48, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to state that I don't see anything objectionable to the point of not striking "proposed" anymore. All further improvements/possible modifications can be discussed even when it is not "proposed" anymore. NikoSilver 12:13, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Final call 

message: Under WP:MOSMAC#Naming conventions (province), we are told to use a construct such as "Western Republic of Macedonia" when referring to parts of the republic. But if these are temporary constructs, as opposed to proper names such as West Macedonia (which incidentally is the article location, not "Western Macedonia"), why should they be capitalized? Shouldn't it rather be "western Republic of Macedonia"? Or, as this sounds like it's implying there are several republics of Macedonia, even better: "western part of the Republic of Macedonia"? -- Jao 18:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reading WP:CAPITAL#Directions_and_regions, the wording in MOSMAC sounds about right, if we consider the term "Western former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" analogous to "Southern United States" as an informally defined subregion of a country. At least that's my interpretation (which could be wrong). In any case this MOS should follow the rules set in WP:CAPITAL, perhaps that's the right place to discuss and clarify the matter. Regards, sys < in 20:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That section of WP:CAPITAL only applies to "regions that are proper nouns, including widely known expressions" such as Southern California or Southern United States, though. Is "Western Republic of Macedonia" such a widely known expression? -- Jao 21:14, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably not, but you've incidentally touched on the crux of the naming dispute. "Western Macedonia" has been used with some frequency to refer to the region of the FYROM affected by Albanian separatism in recent conflicts, but it also happens to be the name of a specific administrative unit of Greece, a notable entity in its own right. That's why Greece has been arguing all along that having two political entities called Macedonia inevitably leads to confusion. I agree with your point about capitalisation, though. I don't see it as particularly necessary. As for your distinction between West/Western Macedonia, I note that it would only be applicable to English, which is rather unique in having such alternate adjectives. In any case, they are interchangeable and wouldn't serve any meaningful disambiguation purpose. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 21:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, my objection was only against the capitalization and against the possible misconception that there are several Republics of Macedonia. I think "Western Republic of Macedonia" should be changed to "the western part of the Republic of Macedonia" in this guideline, that's the only thing I'm seeking to change. I am in perfect agreement with the guideline (and with you) in the main point that the western part of the ROM should not be called simply "Western Macedonia" (capitalized or not), and I apologize if I hadn't been as clear on that point as I thought I had. The parenthesis about "West Macedonia" was just a suggestion that maybe the wording in the guideline should be changed to correspond with the article title, but if your point is that keeping it as "Western Macedonia" here will show more clearly why it makes the use of "Western Macedonia" to refer to the western part of the ROM impossible, then I guess that's all right. -- Jao 11:37, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the "the Western part of..." construct might be a bit clearer. sys < in 16:05, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But Jao is right when he says it shouldn't be capitalised in English; it is an informal designation and using capitals could have the effect of implying a separate political status. Hence why the former West Germany has now been reduced to western Germany. And perhaps the wording should be changed per his observations to reserve both West and Western for West Macedonia, i.e. Western Macedonia, Central Macedonia and Eastern Macedonia [and Thrace] are the official names of 3 Greek peripheries... should be changed to West/Western Macedonia, Central Macedonia and East/Eastern Macedonia... There is no such adjectival distinction in Greek, after all. Any objections? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 07:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i don't disagree, but here's the thing: WP:CAPITAL#Directions_and_regions talks about the Southern United States which is also an informal designation, analogous to "Western FYROM". So, counterintuitive as it may sound, it appears to me that the MOS specifies capitalization. sys < in 10:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the Southern United States is very much in use as a proper noun, although it's more often rendered as "The South" or "The American South". It's not an official designation and its borders are not unambiguously defined, but the difference is obvious from this: New Mexico is a state in the southern United States, but not in the Southern United States, while Virginia is in the Southern United States, but hardly in the southern United States. So clearly it's a proper noun. -- Jao 15:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Western Republic of Macedonia 

message: All these indentation levels are giving me a headache. Here's my summary (by the way, all this has been discussed in the past, including in this very talk page). 
*1) "Republic of" is not sufficient disambiguation - the UN and the EU clearly agree on this point, and this is explained elsewhere on this page.
*2) FYROM is a self-identifying name in that the FYROM has signed bilateral agreements using this name, and agreeing to use this name in international relations, therefore WP:NAME is not an issue.
*3) "Former Yugoslav" is not POV as the UN (which clearly is not an instrument of Greek policy) uses it, and (I'll mention it again) the FYR also formally agrees to this modifier.
*4) This MOS is consistent with precedent, in fact it is much milder than NC-CHINA. NC-CHINA dictates the use of a name that the "ROC(Taiwan)" has not formally agreed to in any context. MOSMAC dictates the use of a name that the FYROM has formally agreed to use in international relations.
Regards, sys < in 20:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to comment on FP's first point above, this is what the President of the UN Security Council said about UNSC's reason for adopting the reference back in 1993: "[it] carried no implication whatsoever that the State concerned had any connection with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) and that it merely reflected the historic fact that it had been in the past a republic of the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."  In other words, it's a purely descriptive reference, not an attempt to disambiguate with the FRY or Greek Macedonia. It's not accurate to say that the UN "found the Greek claim of ambiguity and misappropriation valid or, at a minimum, worth considering" - this has never been the position of the UN. The UN is neutral on the dispute and has always said it's an issue for the two countries themselves to resolve. It's involved as a mediator under the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995 between Greece and the RoM. -- ChrisO 23:28, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Let me put this as simply as I can: you are wrong about the UN's reason for adopting the name. I've just cited the UN's official position on it! Write to them and ask, if you don't believe me. It's a purely descriptive term. Let me quote further: "By resolution 817 (1993) adopted at the 3196th meeting of the Security Council held on 7th April 1993 to consider agenda item “Report of the Committee on the Admission of New Members concerning the application for admission to membership in the United Nations contained in document S/25147 (S/25544),” the Security Council recommended to the General Assembly that “the State whose application is contained in document S/25147 be admitted to membership in the United Nations,” that State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” pending settlement of the difference that had arisen over the name of the State."  Note that it's not the "former Socialist Republic of Macedonia" - it dropped the "Socialist" part just before it seceded from Yugoslavia, so "Republic of Macedonia" was the last name it was known by before independence. That's what made the FYROM formula acceptable to Greece - it's a descriptive historical reference, not a prescriptive name. Disambiguation was not the reason why the name was adopted - as the passage above states, it's a provisional reference to be used by the UN "pending settlement of the difference that had arisen over the name of the State." The UN does not and has not endorsed either the Greek or the Macedonian position. It wouldn't be a very good mediator if it had, would it? And it should be completely obvious that there is no FYRo Croatia or Slovenia because there is no "difference that had arisen over the name" of those states. -- ChrisO 07:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ChrisO, twice you quoted: "pending settlement of the difference that had arisen over the name of the State". Can you please parse this sentence and tell me what that aforementioned difference is? Do you not agree that "pending resolution of the difference" implies a strong connection between this difference and the choice of designation? sys < in 07:53, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the difference is obviously that the RoM wants to use its chosen name for itself and Greece disagrees with this position. The UN obviously recognises the fact of the dispute but it doesn't take sides. As the passage I just quoted states, the provisional reference was adopted as a compromise form of wording that both sides could accept temporarily pending resolution of the dispute. It wasn't a deference to either side. As I recall, there was some controversy in Greece at the time about even accepting the FYROM name, given that it includes the dreaded "Republic of Macedonia" formulation. And as you know, there's a lot of unhappiness in the RoM about the name as well. In other words, it was a typical compromise - both sides had to settle for something less than what they wanted. -- ChrisO 08:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, so you agree that the UN designation is in deference to the Greek position. I never stated that it is an endorsement of the Greek position, only a consideration for a position, which demonstrates that the position is worthy of consideration. In many other cases of international disputes the UN has taken sides (China is a handy example). In any case, regardless of UN's reasons, the fact remains that UNs adoption of this designation, and its adoption by FYROM for international relations, eliminate any taint of POV in its use.sys < in 13:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let's summarize 

message: *about (1): 
**(a) The UN and the EU do not use the "former Yugoslav" for purposes of disambiguation, but for purposes of marking the name as provisional. It has nothing to do with disambiguation. 
**(b) Even if it had, we don't ask the EU or the UN about what disambiguation measures our readers need. That's an editorial decision we make ourselves, on the basis of practical considerations. 
**(c) Yes, I've seen you make the argument that "A casual reader, reading an article about Greek and Greek Macedonia can reasonably misinterpret "Republic of Macedonia" as the name of the Greek region". I find this clutching at straws. What reader do you have in mind, who would know that Greece has a region called M., but not know that there is an independent state called M., and who might think Greece was made up of constituent "Republics" (a vanishingly rare constitutional model across the states of the earth)? How often in real life is the phrase "in the Republic of ..." used with reference to some state's federal constituents rather than a nation state? This is ridiculously unrealistic. And besides, in all cases I can realistically imagine, the context and the wikilinking would make the relationships clear anyway.
*about (2-3): "Republic of..." is very clearly the preferred term of self-identification by far. We've established that it's going to be the regular name used in Wikipedia except for some very limited set of exceptions. As I said, this is non-negotiable.
*about (4): 
**(a) Yes, this MOS is consistent with precedent, the way it is worded, if understood correctly. But it says something else than what you apparently think it says. 
**(b) As I said, the relevant tertium comparationis between this guideline and the Chinese one is not whether Wikipedia's chosen name coincides with that of either of the parties, but whether or not we should have varying naming conventions according to the supposed POV of the subjects we are writing about. We shouldn't. This whole idea that naming conventions are there to satisfy people's domain-specific POVs is entirely alien to the basic principles of naming in Wikipedia.
I mean, I can understand that it's a valid motivation on your side to keep the "RoM" name out of as many Greek-related articles as you can, to make certain groups of readers happy. People have even been willing to humour that tendency to some degree, against their own better judgment. But you must understand that while it's an understandable motivation, it's not a legitimate rationale under the perspective of Wikipedia's naming policies. Names aren't chosen by subjects' POVs. Those are entirely irrelevant. They are chosen for "common use in English", first and foremost, then comes the self-identification principle, practical needs of disambiguation, and considerations of factual accuracy, and not much more. On none of these criteria can I see any good reason why "fY" should be mandated in any but a very small group of exceptional cases. In this, I uphold the position held previously by Pmanderson, and I'm telling you that this guideline isn't going to be "consensus" unless its interpretation is clarified in this respect. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:47, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Response:

message: *1) The UN would not have adopted a provisional name if they had not found the Greek claim of ambiguity and misappropriation valid or, at a minimum, worth considering.
*2) The fact remains that the Republic itself uses "The former Yugoslav ..." when it suits it, so there it is a self-describing name. 
*3) You have chosen not to address this at all.
*4a) Yes, this MOS is consistent with precedent (which also negates your point 2, as it displays that WP:NAME can be clarified when needed. The MOS is consistent with the "Chinese Taipei" precedent. To follow the Chinese example, all references to the FYR should be replaced with a disambiguating name).
*4b) Again, since the Republic itself uses the "former Yugoslav" term, and a number of non-Greek organizations (such as the UN and the EU) use it, the name is clearly non POV, which invalidates your argument. How can it be POV when both parties agree to its use? How can it be "point of view" when an impartial third party also agrees?
Regards,
sys < in 21:29, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Response to Response:

message: *The UN may have chosen to use "fY" for any number of reasons. But certainly not because they feared a practical breakdown of communication because people, on seeing "Republic of Macedonia" written in an UN document, would fail to understand what it meant. That's what disambiguation is about. Practical communicative needs. "fY" never had anything to do with that.
*"RoM" is the constitutional and strongly preferred self-identifying name. We all know that they only use the other out of necessity, and they hate it.
*I didn't address the "POV or non-POV" argument, because it's a non-issue. I will repeat this until people finally understand it: This whole exercise isn't about POV. It's not about placating this or that party's POV, it's not about striking a balance between this and that POV, it's not about finding a solution that is least POV. People's POVs don't enter the equation at all. The only POV that matters is the POV of the entity being named, according to the principle of self-identification. Other parties' POVs are completely, absolutely, utterly irrelevant. This whole exercise is solely about practical needs of communication with our readers. It's about striking a sensible balance between (a) simplicity, (b) what English-speaking readers in normal written discourse will most readily recognise, (c) what the entity in question calls itself, (d) what is practically necessary for disambiguation.
*The only relevant point of comparison between this case and the Chinese case is this: in the Chinese case, Wikipedia editors felt that the difference between "People's Republic of..." and "Republic of..." was not salient and obvious enough to distinguish the two entities for the casual reader, so they opted to add "(Taiwan)" for clarification. In the Macedonian case, all neutral outside observers have told you that the difference between "Republic of..." and "Greek province of..." is easy enough to understand for any reader of normal intelligence. There is never any practical communicative need for "fY". Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:42, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to comment on FP's first point above, this is what the President of the UN Security Council said about UNSC's reason for adopting the reference back in 1993: "[it] carried no implication whatsoever that the State concerned had any connection with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) and that it merely reflected the historic fact that it had been in the past a republic of the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."  In other words, it's a purely descriptive reference, not an attempt to disambiguate with the FRY or Greek Macedonia. It's not accurate to say that the UN "found the Greek claim of ambiguity and misappropriation valid or, at a minimum, worth considering" - this has never been the position of the UN. The UN is neutral on the dispute and has always said it's an issue for the two countries themselves to resolve. It's involved as a mediator under the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995 between Greece and the RoM. -- ChrisO 23:28, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Response to response to response

message: *It is ingenious to state that the UN added the FY disambiguator (for this is what those words are, by definition) just because the FYR was once a FYR. Why do we not have a FYRo Croatia or a FYRo Slovenia? The UN was acknowledging that one or more of the Greek arguments (disambiguation, historic right) were either fully valid, or at least meriting special treatment. Please - such sophistry does not show good faith.
*In any case, if disambiguation was not a reason, what were the "any number of reasons"? And why do they not apply in the real world?
*Disambiguation is not needed for people already familiar with the subject, but is essential for people not familiar with the subject, as many or most people seeking info in WP presumably are.
*You are contradicting yourself on the significance of POV in this matter. You went on and on about POV before, and now that the FY name is clearly demonstrated not to be POV, you are acting as if POV never mattered.
*Again you are avoiding the point, that FYROM is a a name used by the FYROM government itself. I have a friend whose name is Didi but her drivers' license reads "Delphine". She doesn't care much about Delphine, but this doesn't make it any less her real name. Both names are valid.
*You are not addressing the point that the RoC(T) govm't rejects the use of (Taiwan) which is a more extreme stance than that taken by this MoS.
*No, not ALL observers have told me that, unless you consider the UN and the EU and Eurovision, etc, etc, to be non-existent.
Regards, sys < in 07:02, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me put this as simply as I can: you are wrong about the UN's reason for adopting the name. I've just cited the UN's official position on it! Write to them and ask, if you don't believe me. It's a purely descriptive term. Let me quote further: "By resolution 817 (1993) adopted at the 3196th meeting of the Security Council held on 7th April 1993 to consider agenda item “Report of the Committee on the Admission of New Members concerning the application for admission to membership in the United Nations contained in document S/25147 (S/25544),” the Security Council recommended to the General Assembly that “the State whose application is contained in document S/25147 be admitted to membership in the United Nations,” that State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” pending settlement of the difference that had arisen over the name of the State."  Note that it's not the "former Socialist Republic of Macedonia" - it dropped the "Socialist" part just before it seceded from Yugoslavia, so "Republic of Macedonia" was the last name it was known by before independence. That's what made the FYROM formula acceptable to Greece - it's a descriptive historical reference, not a prescriptive name. Disambiguation was not the reason why the name was adopted - as the passage above states, it's a provisional reference to be used by the UN "pending settlement of the difference that had arisen over the name of the State." The UN does not and has not endorsed either the Greek or the Macedonian position. It wouldn't be a very good mediator if it had, would it? And it should be completely obvious that there is no FYRo Croatia or Slovenia because there is no "difference that had arisen over the name" of those states. -- ChrisO 07:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ChrisO, twice you quoted: "pending settlement of the difference that had arisen over the name of the State". Can you please parse this sentence and tell me what that aforementioned difference is? Do you not agree that "pending resolution of the difference" implies a strong connection between this difference and the choice of designation? sys < in 07:53, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the difference is obviously that the RoM wants to use its chosen name for itself and Greece disagrees with this position. The UN obviously recognises the fact of the dispute but it doesn't take sides. As the passage I just quoted states, the provisional reference was adopted as a compromise form of wording that both sides could accept temporarily pending resolution of the dispute. It wasn't a deference to either side. As I recall, there was some controversy in Greece at the time about even accepting the FYROM name, given that it includes the dreaded "Republic of Macedonia" formulation. And as you know, there's a lot of unhappiness in the RoM about the name as well. In other words, it was a typical compromise - both sides had to settle for something less than what they wanted. -- ChrisO 08:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, so you agree that the UN designation is in deference to the Greek position. I never stated that it is an endorsement of the Greek position, only a consideration for a position, which demonstrates that the position is worthy of consideration. In many other cases of international disputes the UN has taken sides (China is a handy example). In any case, regardless of UN's reasons, the fact remains that UNs adoption of this designation, and its adoption by FYROM for international relations, eliminate any taint of POV in its use.sys < in 13:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: R2R2R2R

message: *Learn the difference between a "disambiguator" and a "qualifier". A disambiguator is a qualifier used because an appellation would otherwise be ambiguous. "RoM" is not ambiguous, ever. There is only one entity in the world that is called "RoM". In fact, in the very UN document Chris quoted, the very first reference to the RoM uses just that, "Republic of Macedonia", without a qualifier. Apparently, the UN diplomats were perfectly able to work out what entity was meant by that. Whatever their reason was for adopting the qualifier, it wasn't a disambiguation need.
*But anyway, I don't care why the EU or the UN do what they do. This is Sparta Wikipedia. 
*Where did I "go on and on about POV before"? Read.
*I wasn't avoiding the point. I clearly answered it. Read.
*I did address the point about why "(Taiwan)" was chosen despite its rejection by the RoC government. Read. What exactly about the notion of a compromise between the self-id principle and practical disambiguation needs do you find difficult to understand? 
*By "all observers", I obviously meant Wikipedia editors. Speaking about practical needs of Wikipedia readers. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: R2R2R2R2R

message: Regarding this latest outburst, I should probably inform its author that it was I who wrote the sentence in the first place. Personal attacks and loaded labels aren't particularly helpful. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:43, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Epithets 

message: I propose to remove the language about "deprecated names" including things like "Pseudomacedonia", "Bulgaroskopians" and so on. These are so obviously beyond the pale that their exclusion should be self-evident. Calling them "deprecated" implies that they would otherwise have been serious candidates. That alone can be read as a slight against the country. Only things like "Skopje" or "Aegean Macedonia", where the political implications aren't as obvious to the outside reader, need to be treated there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I second that. Nobody uses them anyway; I don't know why they were put there in the first place, except perhaps to portray the Greeks as hot-headed lunatics. The only names commonly used by Greeks are Σκόπια (Skopje) for the country (and to a lesser degree FYROM) and Σκοπιανοί (Skopjans) for the people. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 13:44, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If we are agreed that WP should never use them, then why not record the agreement? If someone wants to ban the abuse produced by Republican lunatics, that's fine too. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:52, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because no one's using them to begin with. Greek "vandalism" on Wikipedia doesn't get any worse than changing "Republic of Macedonia" to "FYROM"; I've never even seen anyone change it to "Skopje", which one might reasonably expect given its predominance amongst Greeks. Mentioning anything else is just a straw too many. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've seen "Pseudomacedonia", "Bulgaroskopians" and "Skopje" (especially the latter) used by hit-and-run vandals here on Wikipedia, which is why I included them in the deprecated names section in the first place. -- ChrisO 07:39, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another thing... 

message: I objectively and rationally claim that fYRoM is the preferred term as per WP:NCON. I quote:
:Bear in mind that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is.
:Where there are two self-identifying names in use and both are descriptive, then the uncontroversial name should be used. See Controversial names.
FYROM being a non-controversial (both sides formally agree to it, independent third super-national organizations agree to it, the UN ) self-identifying ("Hi my name is FYROM" at the Olympics), and the only of the two names to be descriptive, not prescriptive, it is clear to me that WP:NAME licenses the use of FYROM globally0.  It is an indisputable fact that FYROM is the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (descriptive). It is a point of dispute that it is "The Republic of Macedonia" (prescriptive)
Clearly, the other side takes the same words and interprets them quite differently. The standard that WP:China and this MOS follow is to use CT/fYRoM1 where the name can be used in a descriptive way (i.e. where the use of this name does not taint the subject matter with misleading, prescriptive or subjective connotations2). In articles where the very use of the name becomes prescriptive (i.e. where it creates connotations that should not be there), a descriptive name must be used. As an objective method for making this determination, both MOS declare that if there is agreement by both parties that the descriptive name must be used in this context internationally, then this name can be used in this context in WP.
0 You can argue that RoM is also descriptive; even if you do, and even if you are right, it doesn't matter as the NCON covers this case already
1 WP:China goes much further, by enforcing a descriptive-prescriptive hybrid name, RoC(Taiwan), practically everywhere. Let's not go there.
2 By that I mean: In any article about Greece, the use of the RoM designation is prescriptive because, by definition, it can carry the intended or unintented implication that the RoM is the national state of Macedonia and the Macedonian people, i.e. a considerable percentage of Greek territory and population. In any article about the Greek people and Greek geography, the implications of the existence of a state that claims to represent "Macedonia(ns)" are significant, and load the article with unneeded baggage. 
Regards, sys < in 14:15, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Couldn't have put it better myself. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:24, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Before I comment, could you please re-read what you just wrote? I suspect there are a few confusing slips. Your first sentence... do you really mean "RoM" there? And then, do you really see "CT" (Chinese Taipei) and "RoM" (Republic of Macedonia) as the two terms that match in status when comparing the two cases? That would be just bizarre. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure he meant fYRoM in the former instance and RoC in the latter. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I just pulled an all-nighter coding, and editing WP on the side between compiles. My brain is scattered - I think I corrected what I mistyped. Apologies. sys < in 14:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought you meant that RoC/RoM may be considered descriptive only if they are free of undesirable connotations. In any case, I fully agree with the crux of your argument that the use of RoM in Greek-related articles can be considered prescriptive, given the very specific connotations of Macedonia(ns) in the context of Greece and/or the Greeks. In fact, I also happen to think its use is prescriptive anywhere, as it clearly favours one POV over another, but some have decreed that it is "non-negotiable". ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but among other things I find wrong here, you are both mis-using the terms descriptive and prescriptive. You seem to believe that descriptive means as much as 'neutral' and prescriptive 'non-neutral'. This way, you are bringing back the concept of finding out what the "right" name is, through the back door. The whole point about introducing the terms descriptive and prescriptive in WP:NCON is that we should not be doing that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:10, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I note that guideline was largely written by a contributor to this talk page, so forgive me if I'm sensing more than just a whiff of a conflict of interest. "We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is." Nema problema, except the argument could go either way in this case. You have declared that RoM should be the country's name, and fYRoM is its name by its and your own admission at least some of the time. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 17:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

text: The assertion that FYROM is a self-identifying name is actually not accurate. "FYROM" is not even a name - it's a provisional reference (note that the UN never calls it a name). The RoM government's position is that it consents to the use of the reference in certain fora, not that it self-identifies by that reference, which it hates. The RoM presidency website spells this out. To quote the President of the RoM, "You know that within the UN, we are referred to by our provisional name, FYROM. The fact that we do not object is a concession on our part"  and "Believe me when I say that we want more than anybody in the world to find a solution and obliterate the anachronistic and humiliating coinage FYROM."  The RoM's position has always been that its definitive name is "Republic of Macedonia", which is the only one officially defined for the state in its constitution. -- ChrisO 19:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Our provisional name", words spoken by the President of the Republic himself, is pretty straightforward evidence that it is a self-identifying name; its lack of popularity in the Republic is irrelevant, frankly. Just like the Brits, who may despise the EU but have to abide by its rules until they muster the testicular volume to sever ties and bugger off. But if you prefer to call it a self-identifying reference, provisional or otherwise, that's fine too. By the way, there are no such things as "love" and "hate" in international relations, only national interests, international agreements and violations thereof. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 19:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's just not so. Go back to the reference I quoted earlier for Sysin, the statement by the UN Security Council at which the FYROM reference was officially adopted. The statement speaks of the "State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations" as FYROM. The intent of this wording is described by Frowein and Wolfrum in the Max Planck Yearbook of United Nations Law 1997: "it did not purport to determine the name of the state, even for United Nations purposes, even as a provisional name, but rather describes how the state will be provisionally referred to." Crvenkovski may have misspoken (or been mistranslated) in this instance, but the position has always been that FYROM is a provisional reference, not a name. It's used merely as a construct to enable the RoM to do business in international fora, not as a way for the state to identify itself. You're arguing against the clearly understood, well-documented facts here. -- ChrisO 19:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tell that to Mr. Crvenkovski. The word "name" was his, not mine. It makes no difference to me, as I have yet to encounter a convincing argument that a mutually accepted "provisional reference" is any less valid than a controversial "name" that is a matter of international dispute. Au contraire... ·ΚέκρωΨ· 19:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:NCON is clear: the self-identifying name is the standard. The only self-identifying name of the RoM is that set out in article 1 of its constitution. The fact that it's controversial - and that you personally dislike the name of the RoM - is completely irrelevant to our task as encyclopedists. NCON determines what we do here, not your personal opinion or that of the Greek state. The whole point of NCON is that it removes such decisions from the sphere of personal opinions and confines the issue to the entirely objective question of how an entity formally identifies itself. That's a simple question of looking at its constitution or founding document, and doesn't require any "convincing arguments" to be presented - only the facts. When I wrote NCON, it was with the clear intention (as the page states) that we are not in the business of determining what the name of a self-identifying entity should be, but what it actually is - period. -- ChrisO 20:04, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And your guideline is the be-all and end-all why? Because you happened to write it? Yes, sir! ·ΚέκρωΨ· 20:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's the be-all and end-all because it's the relevant guideline, it's been agreed by the community, and it's been stable, effective and successfully used for the last two and a half years. As you can see from the hundreds of links to it, it's been used frequently to resolve disputes of this sort. I'm simply giving you my expert advice as its author about what the guideline requires. The position that you and Sysin are taking is precisely why fiascos such as the Gdanzig case occurred; NCON was written with the express intention of providing an objective means to resolve such disputes. -- ChrisO 20:26, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To be clear, I'm not disputing the guideline as such. I'm disputing your interpretation of it as it relates to this case. FYROM is a self-identifying name/reference - full stop. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 20:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You can insist all you like, but tell me when you find it in the RoM's constitution. Evidence-free assertions aren't worth much. -- ChrisO 20:43, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And you can argue that a reference isn't a name until you're blue in the face, but I fail to see any provision in your guideline that an entity may have only one self-identifying name or reference or that a nation's constitution is the only legitimate source thereof. If that were the case, the article would be at Република Македонија. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 20:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have to argue anything: I simply have to state the documented facts, which is something that you've rather obviously neglected to do so far. -- ChrisO 21:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. That FYROM is a self-identifying name is a fact that you are rather obviously neglecting. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 21:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That you disagree with the facts is obvious; I don't know what you expect the rest of us to do about it. We certainly can't proceed on the basis of fact-free assertions. -- ChrisO 21:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Where there are two self-identifying names in use and both are descriptive, then the uncontroversial name should be used. See Controversial names.
We have established that of the two names, only FYROM meets the criteria (self-identifying, descriptive, non-controversial). The MOS, as it stands, is a major givaway from this position, in the interest of getting along and doing something more productive than edit wars.
Let me ask directly: Do you interpret NCON in a different way, and how?
sys < in 18:43, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes. But the more I look into it, the more I see the NCON text is itself poorly worded here. There is a conceptual confusion, partly in the NCON and even more strongly in what you write, between a name itself, as such, being prescriptive or descriptive, and somebody's approach towards a name being prescriptive or descriptive. What the guideline is really trying to say, in my understanding, is about the latter. We, as editors, should be descriptive, not prescriptive, in how we choose and evaluate names. We should not heed arguments about what names are correct, justified, historically right, good or bad or whatever in the real world. Those arguments would be prescriptive. We should only heed descriptive arguments about what names are actually used by whom. Prescriptive, in that sense, is exactly what you have just been doing, with your speculations about what ideological implications those names might carry (those things are called "implications", by the way, not "prescriptions") and why their use is thus good or bad. This is precisely what the guideline wants to tell us not to do. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not so much a conceptual confusion as a legislative gap. The guideline does not in fact provide for a case like this, where there is more than one self-identifying name (or reference as ChrisO would prefer) and neither is (uncontroversially) uncontroversial. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 21:06, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You can insist this until you're blue in the face, but the indisputable fact is that the country's self-asserted legal identity is as the "Republic of Macedonia". Insistence otherwise is just a species of denialism, I'm afraid. -- ChrisO 21:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "We are referred to by our provisional name, FYROM." ·ΚέκρωΨ· 21:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An interview with the President of the Republic of Macedonia isn't a legal document. The country's constitution is. -- ChrisO 21:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We also have the UN, the EU, NATO, the Olympics, Eurovision, ad infinitum. And where, pray tell, does your guideline say anything about legal documents? Even if it did, there are even more legal documents that the country has signed as tfYRoM. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 21:24, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Look, let's cut to the chase, shall we? You have a POV-based objection to the use of the RoM name. Fine, I'm not going to try to dissuade you from your beliefs. But you miss the fact that your beliefs are irrelevant to the way that we deal with issues like this. The definitive name of a self-identifying entity is generally given in its foundational document, whether that's a company charter, city charter or constitution. That's not always the case, so you can't set out a one size fits all rule that will apply to every example. In this case, however, there's a very clear self-identification in the RoM's most basic legal text. You literally can't get a more definitive self-identifying statement than a national constitution. -- ChrisO 21:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Look, let's cut to the chase, shall we? You have a POV-based objection to the use of the FYROM name. Fine, I'm not going to try to dissuade you from your beliefs. But you miss the fact that your beliefs are irrelevant to the way that we deal with issues like this. The definitive name of a self-identifying entity is generally given in many documents, whether those are president interviews, EU applications, NATO applications, IOC participations etc. That's not always the case, so you can't set out a one size fits all rule that will apply to every example. In this case, however, there's a very clear self-identification in the RoM's most frequent international self-appellations. You literally can't get a more definitive self-identifying statements than those spoken by the subjects themselves. NikoSilver 21:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I don't. I honestly don't care which name the country uses. I do care about how the NCON guideline is applied, and the way that you lot are trying to go about it is actually to ignore NCON altogether. I'm not going to poke holes in an agreed, well-established guideline to satisfy a parochial political dispute. If you don't agree with the principles of NCON, then that's too bad - we're not going to change it so that you can drag Wikipedia back into a partisan free-for-all over naming. If you want to get anywhere with this discussion you're going to have to do so on the basis of Wikipedia standards, not your own personal POVs, otherwise we might as well stop wasting our time on this. -- ChrisO 21:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you do. You will do anything in your power to interpret or even create and modify the NCON guideline the way it suits the purpose of advancing paranoia, regardless if it has correctly been interpreted the other way numerous unrelated times for other hot issues (WP:CHINA, Talk:Gdansk/Vote, Imia/Kardak). Wikipedia is the victim, and it violates all its core policies to adapt to your occasional "interpretations" for endorsing known cited partisans at will or for sheer fun. There is nothing wasting our time more than this ridiculously subjective approach. NikoSilver 22:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we're approaching this from two different angles. I wrote NCON to find a universal solution to a general problem, so naturally I'm approaching this in a way that seeks to preserve the universal principles. You're trying to find a particular solution to a particular problem, so you're approaching it in a way that isn't necessarily compatible with the universal principles I'm trying to uphold. But as I said earlier, we're not going to get anywhere if you try to carve out an exception to fit your little local difficulty. -- ChrisO 22:48, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

text: And yet, back in the real world, the country uses an alternative name both de facto and de jure. In other words, it has two self-identifying names. One is unpopular in Greece, the other in the country itself (irrelevant, you're absolutely right). And neither is uncontroversial, apparently. Anyway, we've been going in circles for hours. Let's call it a night, shall we? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 21:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  An objective, rational reason 

message: Just one question, have you read the "Copyright Law and Related Rights of the Republic of Macedonia"? I doubt you have. FrightnerResurrection 08:42, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a link to that? Google comes up with this, but those idiots at the World Intellectual Property Organization keep using the "former Yugoslav ..." term in all their documentation, its so confusing, I can't figure out what they are talking about, didn't anyone tell them that no-one uses this name? sys < in 08:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: PD-RoM

message: Time to seek fresh outside opinion? We're stuck here. Let's do an RfC.
For newcomers: The above debate has become huge, so here's the executive summary:
;Real-world situation in a nutshell:
*The Republic of Macedonia (henceforth: "RoM") uses Republic of Macedonia as its constitutional name (official self-appellation).
*The neighbouring country Greece strongly objects against this name.
*More detailed background: see Macedonia naming dispute.
*As a compromise, the RoM has agreed to use the qualified name former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (henceforth: "FYROM") in its bilateral dealings with Greece, in the UN, in its dealings with the EU and in some other contexts (e.g. its participation in international sporting organistions etc.)
;Wikipedia situation in a nutshell:
*The articles dealing with the RoM are at Republic of Macedonia. (not currently disputed)
*Topic of this guideline is how it should be referred to in other articles.
*Previous consensus has been to use RoM in most environments, but FYROM in articles dealing with those domains where FYROM is used bilaterally as the official name. This includes, uncontroversially, articles about the EU, the UN, the Olympic Games, etc.
*Renewed debate: How large is the class of Greece-related articles to which this rule, of using FYROM, should apply?
**Only articles dealing explicitly with bilateral, official political relations between the two countries?
**Or all articles whose subject is part of Greece, such as articles about Greek cities, regions, groups of Greek people, etc.?
*Current wording has been the following, but has proven to be controversial as to its interpretation:
::The names former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia or FYR Macedonia should be used in articles or passages which have as subject organisations, states, events and international relationships where the subject in question uses either of these names[1], if the country is mentioned specifically and exclusively in relationship to such an organization.
----
I'd suggest we regulars leave this section alone now and let outsiders comment here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:15, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, nice job "leaving this section alone", Chris. Even though I have some issues with Sunset's summary, I cooperated in his request (not any more, there is no point now). In any case, your argument is long dead and buried. "FYROM" is a self-identifying name of the FYROM. Please re-read the RFC summary, and try to productively participate. Thanks, sys < in 05:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An inaccuracy doesn't become true no matter how many times you repeat it. FP's RfC summary needs to be amended, because it contains some inaccuracies (referring to FYROM as a name, for instance, when the UN itself says that it isn't one) and doesn't fully take into account the issues that arise from the nature and use of the FYROM reference. I'll have a think about what changes need to be made and then propose them here, so that we can agree on the wording of a summary for the RfC. There's nothing wrong with FP's idea of having an RfC, it's just that we need to make sure that what we're discussing accurately reflects the situation. -- ChrisO 07:23, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just for the record, I'll temporarily withdraw from this discussion. I've made my position clear; it's now going in circles and has degenerated so much we won't get anywhere unless we actually get some fresh input from uninvolved people. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A "circle" is when the same arguments are repeated with the same replies. A "dead-end" is when new arguments are not/cannot be replied to. You are in the latter, both here and in my talkpage. NikoSilver 20:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When the subject itself adopts the position that "reference"="name" through its highest ranking official, then the intentions of the United Nations as further explained by certain UN officials cannot qualify whichever perceived differences between the two terms, which in any case they are identical in meaning in this context. Self-identification is king, remember? If the subject says so, then who the hell is that nobody from the UN? Ah, I forgot, we selectively practice that rule too! NikoSilver 20:04, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The use of the reference was established by the UN General Assembly and Security Council in two resolutions in 1993, not by some "nobody". As the author of the reference, the UN is obviously best placed to tell us what it means, as the President of the UNSC did when he stated that it was "the reference in the resolution ... merely reflected the historic fact that it had been in the past a republic of the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."  Given that it was a compromise term devised by the UN, it's patently not a self-identifying term of the RoM. In fact, you're misrepresenting the position of all three parties in the naming dispute - the RoM and Greeks only agreed to the term on the basis that it was a provisional reference, not a name, as both sides had their own reasons for not wanting to establish it permanently (the RoM obviously wanted its constitutional name to be used, the Greeks didn't want any name that included "Macedonia" to become permanently established). None of this history is controversial. It's all well-documented and spelled out explicitly by the original sources. So it really doesn't help your case that you're persistently denying it, misrepresenting it and attempting to substitute your own undocumented original research for it. -- ChrisO 23:25, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yet the president of the republic itself calls it their name, by which they are called. The whatever intended reference/name differentiation in terminology of the mediating godfather is therefore abandoned by the subject itself. I would appreciate if you could spare the denying/misinterpreting/etc stuff or direct it to the source itself (i.e. the president of the republic who said it). OR is trying to explain what that country means by listening to others rather than their own actual words. NikoSilver 23:50, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's somewhat unbelievable that you're equating an off-the-cuff remark in one interview by the Macedonian president with two UN resolutions and a statement by the Security Council - the precise wording of which was the result of months of negotiations. Frankly it's indicative of the straws at which you're grasping. -- ChrisO 00:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Uhm, do you people  understand that "the former/Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" denomination(s) are also referred to as a "provisional name" within this UN document, and there is no distinctive provision between "a reference", "a name" (or "a denomination" for that matter, since it is a term used once) in this and the other two documents  ? 03:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text:  P.S. I was  referring to the documents presented here by user:ChrisO. A quick search within the 'un.org' domain yielded other instances too (i.e. cases where the provisional reference “t/The f/Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” is ... referred to as a name) : Country profile> Name of country. On that note, maybe it’s worth mentioning that  the abbreviated form "FYR of Macedonia" has and still is being used within the “un.org” domain ; maybe not extremely often used, but if memory serves correctly I think, I’ve seen it used by a major international sporting association too. I had spotted that for some time now but it seemed a bit too trivial to mention. 04:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for comment 

message: :Lawyering of the worst form. "Name" vs "reference" (go figure), unsourced claims ("ROM doesn't self-identify by it" - "though it doesn't like it"), changing the guideline when the guideline does not help (lol), selective "no-politics-in-WP" practice, rejection of all applicable precedents, utter reader confusion ("Florina Prefecture is in Macedonia and borders the Republic of Macedonia") combined with blatant violation of WP:V, and the end-all be-all sick linguistic notion that self-identification is uber alles (and that selectively too), as opposed to serial officially endorsed regional destabilization, history falsification, irredentism, misinformation, misappropriation, violation of the right to un-disambiguated regional self-identification of various other neighboring peoples etc etc... Anything that may serve the purpose of advancing anti-Hellenism or ill-informed pseudo-liberalism will be employed. NikoSilver 21:38, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not anti-Hellenism. It's called playing with others' feelings for fun, just because you can. The actual outcome of the dispute in the real world will have no effect on these boys' lives, after all. They can afford to be smug. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 21:51, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What on earth is that florina.gr page and what does it relate to? I've never seen it before. But really, the rest of the above is just the most absurd kind of wallowing in ideological self-pity and nationalist antipathy. NCON is no more about "anti-Hellenism" than it's about anti-Sinoism, anti-Cypriotism, anti-Koreanism, or anti- anything else. Both NCON and NPOV, the wider principle of which it's a part, do occasionally produce results which don't benefit a particular POV. We often get people complaining that NPOV doesn't allow them to promote partisan agendas of the sort which Niko so clearly states above, but that's just too bad - Wikipedia's own foundational principles are non-negotiable and universally applicable to this as well as to all other similar cases. -- ChrisO 23:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That still doesn't justify your sarcastic and offensive labelling of Greeks as a "large group of crackpots". I wonder what the reaction would've been if the same gibe were hurled at a less thick-skinned group. As an administrator, you should know better than to engage in such petty personal attacks. No excuses. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 02:04, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For those who don't follow the discussion above but are compelled to throw in their [obviously uninformed] wisdom combined with  collective ethnic insults every now and then, florina.org is the official site of the Florina Prefecture which places the administrative entity south of a Πρώην Γιουγκοσλαβική Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, in Greek), thereby justifying that whatever else violates WP:V. All bordering prefectures follow suit, and it was given as an example. The borders have two sides, and the one in the south is pretty clearly identified by those who run things there. The choice in responding to the "unproductive" part of my comment without addressing that and various productive points made there is an indication of weakness in argumentation. Those points remain unanswered. NikoSilver 20:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To the selective reallocator of particular comments to sections with "unproductive" headings: First you must practice what you preach. Second you must reallocate all relevant comments, starting of course from the one that created this havoc, which by the way is a "racial slur" as defined by WP:NPA. Finally, nobody is endorsed to reallocate my or anyone else's comment on the grounds that they merely don't agree or can't answer, because there was much-much more than the "unproductive" part, and an adequate response has not been given yet. I really haven't seen who did this, and frankly don't care. NikoSilver 20:04, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but I don't see any substantial arguments in your latest postings, as far as they were directed at me, either here nor there, that I haven't already answered to. This is going in circles. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:55, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you think so, that's OK, and I share the same view for what I see as your unsubstantial replies. That does not justify you to label them "unproductive" without advancing that same courtesy to our fellow admin with the racial slur who started this, and who's views you largely share. One can't simply infuriate people, never apologize when given the opportunity, and expect not to be treated the same way (well, a lot more leniently, actually). Selecting to isolate the comment of the one originally attacked is unacceptable. NikoSilver 21:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't around here when Chris made that remark. It was somewhere a few kilometers upwards of where we now are on this talkpage. It wasn't a racial slur either. But anyway. K.'s insult was still blatantly out of place. By the way, it was offending me too. Am I also one of "those boys" (plural)? This is, in fact, one of the most vile attempts at character assassination I've had directed at me here. And as for your own posting just above it, well, ... I supposed it was written in anger, and I can sort of understand that, but now, looking back on it with a day's distance, if you still don't see how it actually was unconstructive bickering, I can't help you. In the end, it wasn't really so much what you all were saying that made me intervene; it was the fact that you were saying it in the section where I, at the time, was still hoping we'd get constructive outside neutral comments. A prospect that now seems to be growing ever more faint, unfortunately. In that context, your posting, Kekrops' jibe as well as his wantonly dragging out that other jibe by Chris, all seemed to serve no other purpose but to derail any chances of a constructive discussion there was still left. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:45, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Chris's comment was directed purposely and unambiguously to the whole ethnic group of the Greeks that Kekrops right above had  just said those that use FYROM aren't just "a small group of crackpots", since most of the Greeks happen to use it in everyday speech.    I know you too well to assume you just can't get it, so try to read the whole thread. As for the rest, I guess one brings the other, and I have already assumed the part of the responsibility that I deserve by judging part of my own comment as unproductive, so your comment is out of place. For the productive part of my comment that you still fail to see, kindly refer to the following section (shortly): NikoSilver 22:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was an unfriendly jibe, but it was not a racial slur. He was criticising people as crackpots, not because of their race or their ethnicity or whatever, but because of their political opinions. If those opinions happen to be shared by a majority of the members of that ethnic group, that still doesn't make it an attack on the ethnic group as such. But again, this is completely irrelevant to my attempt at salvaging the RfC. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe the time has come to sideline the unproductive contributors and move on without them. They've had every chance to contribute in good faith but have retreated into denialism, personal attacks and nationalist rants; plainly they don't have any intention of contributing productively. You might be interested in looking at Dbachmann's essay on the subject. I'll have a go at bringing in some third parties with experience of dealing with other nationalist conflicts on Wikipedia. -- ChrisO 23:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Code for "let's get rid of those pesky crackpots". I don't think so, matey. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 04:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A section reserved for the usual unproductive in-group bickering

message: Just for the record, as so much importance has been placed on the question of whether "fY..." is part of the "self-identifying" name/appellation/whatever. People might be interested in this and similar documents (warning: large download). It's the RoM's official answer to an official EU "Questionnaire" regarding the Accession process, from 2005, as published by the RoM's government website. Thus, probably the most official form of communication the RoM has with the EU. It uses "Republic of Macedonia" throughout. The same, as pointed out earlier, goes for official communications of the RoM towards the UN. Thus, to say that the RoM has "agreed to use fYROM in its dealings" with these organisations seems to be wrong. For all I can see, the only places ever where they use fYROM is texts that are by necessity worded in common, such as treaties. Treaties are, by their very nature, not texts in which one side talks about itself in its own voice.
As a specific example, somebody above claimed that "The FYR itself has agreed that its border with Pella is the Greek-FYROM border, not the Greece-ROM border." If you want to see what they really think their border is called, look at p.444 of the document linked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine. But we're not discussing Skopje's southern border here. Nikos provided a source for how the Florina Prefecture describes its border with Skopje, i.e. Greece's northern border. I don't understand why the POV of one side should override that of the other in an article about the latter. "It's not about POV," you'll cry, contradicting your last sentence above. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 10:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No. It's still about Wikipedia's own, outside voice, rather than either side's voice. But if we are going to take anybody's voice into account (which the naming policies say we should to some limited extent), then it's still the voice only of the entity being named that counts, not some other's. The question of whether the geographic relation between Florina and the RoM is the "RoM-Florina" border or the "fYRoM-Florina" border, involves a decision on what the RoM is called, not on what Florina is called. Thus, it's the RoM's self-identification, not Florina's self-identification, that's at stake. What article this happens in is entirely irrelevant. But thanks for agreeing that "RoM" is the self-identifying name even in contexts of relations with Greece. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong. It is a, not the, self-identifying name. And who said anything about what Florina is called? Nikos has simply pointed out the obvious absurdity of your position that fYRoM can be used in Greece but not in Florina Prefecture. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 10:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you find that absurd, then let's not use fYRoM in Greece either. No problem. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you think starting another edit war is the way to go, no problem at all. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 10:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If, by this, you mean that your last resort in defending your position against policy will be edit-warring, I thank you for your frankness. By the way, I never said I have a big desire to go around articles and changing things. But I won't accept that this guideline should mandate or attempt to justify a status quo that is clearly contrary to policy. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's cut the crap, shall we? Nikos and Sysin would never have agreed to the guideline in the first place if "Macedonia" were shoved in their faces like that. The use of fYRoM had already been established in that article for a long time and accepted by the other side. No use trying to backpedal now. As for the "self-identifying name even in contexts of relations with Greece", I again refer you to the President of the Republic, who has accepted that RoM will never be used in bilateral relations, effectively giving Athens the green light to call Skopje whatever it likes. Furthermore, he "is willing to join NATO under the reference that is used now in the UN". It is fortunate that some here feel the need to be plus royalistes que le roi. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 10:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But we aren't doing bilateral relations here. We are simply talking about Greece, and talking about the RoM. We will name Greece the way Greece likes, and the RoM the way the RoM likes. That's the principle, and nothing else. Everything else is not policy but simply a tactical concession to the brute force of your edit-warring, which you have so tactfully reminded us of. I'm willing to make such concessions, pragmatically, but I'm not willing to seeing them endorsed as policy. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong again. "Greece" isn't Greece's self-identifying name, as you well know. Strange that the right to self-identification is sacrosanct only selectively. And the point I was making in my previous post is that Skopje has accepted in principle the use of an alternative self-identifying name in its relations with Greece, rendering it and only it the uncontroversial choice per WP:NCON. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 11:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is getting boring. I'm not even going to point out the flaws in the above. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another note about "self-identifying" 

message: The article is now in Republic of Macedonia. The article name issue is irrelevant to the MoS guideline in question. The actual dispute here is over the breadth of breaching the consistence in the use of the article name in other articles. Not of whether this consistence should be breached at all, because this has already been agreed upon for articles related to EU, NATO, Greek politics, etc. However, it is important to note that the article name is indeed maybe the closest call among two appellations ("Republic of Macedonia" vs "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"). This is mainly due to the interpretation of the WP:NCON guideline. For details, expand the following section:
====WP:NCON and interpretations====
=====WP:NCON#Proper nouns text:=====
----
The three key principles are:
* The most common use of a name takes precedence;
* If the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name;
* If neither the common name nor the official name is prevalent, use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves.
A number of objective criteria can be used to determine common or official usage:
* Is the name in common usage in English? (check Google, other reference works, websites of media, government and international organisations)
* Is it the official current name of the subject? (check if the name is used in a legal context, e.g. a constitution)
* Is it the name used by the subject to describe itself or themselves? (check if it is a self-identifying term)
----
=====Interpretations=====
*Most common: There is a clear dispute over which is the "most common name". Google-tests etc fail to provide a clear result due to the multitude of uses of the term "Macedonia" for various irrelevant places, notably that of Macedonia (Greece). Furthermore the longer term incorporates the shorter one with the mere addition of "Former Yugoslav". Finally, there are various slight modifications of the long name (such as "FYR Macedonia", "FYR of Macedonia", "FY Republic of Macedonia", "FYROM", "FYRO Macedonia" etc etc). An attempted test for establishing which is the most common name was run when the article name was discussed years ago, and it turned out unsuccessful in providing an undisputed result. For details see the archived Talk:Republic of Macedonia/FYROM name support position.
*Official: There are disputes over what constitutes "official", or even what constitutes a "name".
**It is argued that both names are "official". One is used by the constitution of the country, about half the world countries, and the country itself. The other is used by the United Nations and all other international organizations, by the other half of the world countries, and -again- by the country itself. You will have to be the judge of which is "official" and why the other is not.
**It is argued that the UN term is not a "name" to begin with, but only a "temporary reference". The distinction between the two terms has been made in an interpretation of the UN agreements, yet the country itself is quoted using the terms "name" and "we are called" to describe it. So does the UN in various other documents.
*Self-id: Clearly, the short term is used as a self-identifying name. The dispute is over if the the long term is used as a self-id too. It is argued that the country is forced to use the long name by the UN agreements (and by extension by Greece), and that this should constitute a least "preferred" self-identification. Nevertheless, the country does use it for all international organizations. Notably for the UN, NATO, EU, IOC, FIFA, FIBA etc and for bilateral relations with half the world countries which don't recognize its constitutional name.
In my view it is also indisputable that in Greece-related subjects worldwide the "most common name" (per WP:NCON's first criterion) is "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".
:This is not the intended interpretation of WP:NCON, which would use the "most common name", once determined, in all contexts. The disputed sections of this guideline are explicit exceptions to this, tolerable only because they represent the implicit PoV of the UN, the EU and so forth. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You should continue your list by "Greece, its subnational entities etc" before you abruptly interrupt it. NikoSilver 22:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 1. Article name

message: =====WP:NCON#Proper nouns text:=====
----
The three key principles are:
* The most common use of a name takes precedence;
* If the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name;
* If neither the common name nor the official name is prevalent, use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves.
A number of objective criteria can be used to determine common or official usage:
* Is the name in common usage in English? (check Google, other reference works, websites of media, government and international organisations)
* Is it the official current name of the subject? (check if the name is used in a legal context, e.g. a constitution)
* Is it the name used by the subject to describe itself or themselves? (check if it is a self-identifying term)
----
=====Interpretations=====
*Most common: There is a clear dispute over which is the "most common name". Google-tests etc fail to provide a clear result due to the multitude of uses of the term "Macedonia" for various irrelevant places, notably that of Macedonia (Greece). Furthermore the longer term incorporates the shorter one with the mere addition of "Former Yugoslav". Finally, there are various slight modifications of the long name (such as "FYR Macedonia", "FYR of Macedonia", "FY Republic of Macedonia", "FYROM", "FYRO Macedonia" etc etc). An attempted test for establishing which is the most common name was run when the article name was discussed years ago, and it turned out unsuccessful in providing an undisputed result. For details see the archived Talk:Republic of Macedonia/FYROM name support position.
*Official: There are disputes over what constitutes "official", or even what constitutes a "name".
**It is argued that both names are "official". One is used by the constitution of the country, about half the world countries, and the country itself. The other is used by the United Nations and all other international organizations, by the other half of the world countries, and -again- by the country itself. You will have to be the judge of which is "official" and why the other is not.
**It is argued that the UN term is not a "name" to begin with, but only a "temporary reference". The distinction between the two terms has been made in an interpretation of the UN agreements, yet the country itself is quoted using the terms "name" and "we are called" to describe it. So does the UN in various other documents.
*Self-id: Clearly, the short term is used as a self-identifying name. The dispute is over if the the long term is used as a self-id too. It is argued that the country is forced to use the long name by the UN agreements (and by extension by Greece), and that this should constitute a least "preferred" self-identification. Nevertheless, the country does use it for all international organizations. Notably for the UN, NATO, EU, IOC, FIFA, FIBA etc and for bilateral relations with half the world countries which don't recognize its constitutional name.
In my view it is also indisputable that in Greece-related subjects worldwide the "most common name" (per WP:NCON's first criterion) is "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".
:This is not the intended interpretation of WP:NCON, which would use the "most common name", once determined, in all contexts. The disputed sections of this guideline are explicit exceptions to this, tolerable only because they represent the implicit PoV of the UN, the EU and so forth. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You should continue your list by "Greece, its subnational entities etc" before you abruptly interrupt it. NikoSilver 22:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:NCON]] and interpretations

message: *Most common: There is a clear dispute over which is the "most common name". Google-tests etc fail to provide a clear result due to the multitude of uses of the term "Macedonia" for various irrelevant places, notably that of Macedonia (Greece). Furthermore the longer term incorporates the shorter one with the mere addition of "Former Yugoslav". Finally, there are various slight modifications of the long name (such as "FYR Macedonia", "FYR of Macedonia", "FY Republic of Macedonia", "FYROM", "FYRO Macedonia" etc etc). An attempted test for establishing which is the most common name was run when the article name was discussed years ago, and it turned out unsuccessful in providing an undisputed result. For details see the archived Talk:Republic of Macedonia/FYROM name support position.
*Official: There are disputes over what constitutes "official", or even what constitutes a "name".
**It is argued that both names are "official". One is used by the constitution of the country, about half the world countries, and the country itself. The other is used by the United Nations and all other international organizations, by the other half of the world countries, and -again- by the country itself. You will have to be the judge of which is "official" and why the other is not.
**It is argued that the UN term is not a "name" to begin with, but only a "temporary reference". The distinction between the two terms has been made in an interpretation of the UN agreements, yet the country itself is quoted using the terms "name" and "we are called" to describe it. So does the UN in various other documents.
*Self-id: Clearly, the short term is used as a self-identifying name. The dispute is over if the the long term is used as a self-id too. It is argued that the country is forced to use the long name by the UN agreements (and by extension by Greece), and that this should constitute a least "preferred" self-identification. Nevertheless, the country does use it for all international organizations. Notably for the UN, NATO, EU, IOC, FIFA, FIBA etc and for bilateral relations with half the world countries which don't recognize its constitutional name.
In my view it is also indisputable that in Greece-related subjects worldwide the "most common name" (per WP:NCON's first criterion) is "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".
:This is not the intended interpretation of WP:NCON, which would use the "most common name", once determined, in all contexts. The disputed sections of this guideline are explicit exceptions to this, tolerable only because they represent the implicit PoV of the UN, the EU and so forth. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You should continue your list by "Greece, its subnational entities etc" before you abruptly interrupt it. NikoSilver 22:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Interpretations

message: The main rationale behind the choice of using the long name in the already agreed part of the policy (International Organizations etc) is that we cannot misquote those entities, and that anything else would not be verifiable. For example, as far as EU is concerned, there is only a "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in accession talks, and we can't misquote the European Union, nor the country itself under this process, since anything else would not be verifiable by reliable sources.
In my view this rationale encompasses Greece. We cannot misquote Greece for the name of its side of the border, especially when the other country itself is addressed for all purposes to Greece as "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". We can neither misquote Greece's administrative subdivisions when they say "we border the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia",[1] nor an ethnic Greek when he says "I was born in what is now FYROM". This practice is largely followed by other online media (such as the Britannica),[2] while others have chosen to use the long name uniformly (such as Encarta and the BBC).[3]
:No one is proposing "misquoting Greece". The text that gave rise to the present discussion said that scholars in FYROM held a certain view, quoting (and indeed citing) nobody. This was in Wikipedia's voice, not anybody else's, either by attribution or implication. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then why did the present discussion evolve in disputing Prefectures or Greek cities? I am not aware of the specific issue that gave rise to this dispute, and I am willing to discuss the exception of the exception. However, this policy is trying to set a universal standard rather than address a specific edit. NikoSilver 09:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 2.[[WP:V]]

message: In the context of Greece-related articles, the use of the short name may largely be confused with the Greek Macedonia. See the following example:
:Florina Prefecture lies in the historic region of Macedonia and borders the Republic of Macedonia to the north.
In my view the uninformed reader is immediately puzzled as to what the hell is a Macedonian republic doing outside of a Macedonian region. If I were that reader, I'd either demand an explanation, or a link to an explanation. The chosen disambiguating term among the two Macedonias ("Republic of") is not sufficient to illustrate the distinction. On the other hand, the long term speaks for itself: "Former Yugoslav": It states that this republic was previously part of Yugoslavia.
In my view, within Greek articles, it is unfair and unorthodox to devise disambiguating terms or texts for the Greek region (which is indisputably plainly called "Macedonia"), so as not to use a perfectly legitimate, close-call, and -most importantly- sourced term to describe the (otherwise irrelevant) country. It violates the very principle of WP:NCON (self-identification) for the other Macedonia, which is plainly called that.
:The text about Florina should be reworded to include Province of Macedonia as this guideline does. We should state the facts, which are that Florina does border the Republic; the confused reader can follow the links. As an anglophone, I doubt that "former Yugoslav" is going to help anyone who doesn't already grasp that there are two entities here; for those who do, it is tendentious.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This strikes me as highly speculative. You state the confusion of the "uninformed reader" as a fact, but I don't see any evidence for this. Your proposition also seems to ignore one of the basic functions of a wiki - if you don't understand a hyperlinked term, click on it and all will be revealed. -- ChrisO 23:04, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hence the word "may" in "may largely be confused". I'm sure you spot the confusion, are we just debating to its extent? I'd say those readers are many. Now to the remedy through "Former Yugoslav", I think I've stated the rationale of why I think it gives further explanation. NikoSilver 09:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 3.Clarity

message: This section is irrelevant to the policies of WP and the dispute in question. It is here merely for satisfying the curiosity of those wondering, in a brief manner. Expand it only if interested:
====Greek position====
This is the view of most "moderate" Greeks. The vast majority of the Greek population is annoyed not because of the name itself, but of how this name has been used. A name alone cannot harm anyone, however, the name "Macedonia" is constantly used by official sources and schoolbooks of the country as a means to advance historic and territorial claims:
Historic: Most Makedonskis (in the real world and in WP) believe to their bone that they descend from Alexander the Great and his kingdom/empire. This is the result of governmental propaganda of years (cited in Macedonia (terminology)#Ethnic Macedonian nationalism (Extreme and moderate)). The problem of the Greeks is not necessarily to take their place in this genealogy tree (to which they arguably fit since the ancient Macedonians and their language/dialect were absorbed by the rest of the ancient Greeks). It is simply that the Slavs that came 1000 years later just don't have anything to do with them, yet they use that name to appropriate that part of history. I, as a Greek, don't see it as "stealing something which is mine". I see it as "monopolizing something which is everybody's, and definitely not only theirs".
Territorial: The persistence in the use of a name without the proposed qualifiers (such as Slav- or North) has been extended to territorial claims. It is the belief of most Makedonskis that Macedonia (Greece) (among others) is an "occupied region" of their country, merely because it carries the same name. This, again, is the result of governmental propaganda and is still endorsed by official printed material. For details, see also "United Macedonia".
It is worth to note that no Makedonski user of WP has ever criticized the above two fallacies, as it would be considered a "national crime"![4] On the other hand, there are many Greeks (in WP and in the real world) who have disputed the initial Greek position of "no Macedonia at all in the title". Hence, the Greek position has changed to demand just some sort of disambiguation. A disambiguation which would, of course, be totally unnecessary if the neighboring country didn't let those preposterous claims slip through official sources and if it didn't in fact endorse them.
Apart from those "material" claims, there is also the immaterial claim of the right to un-disambiguated self-identification. Most Greek Macedonians cannot understand why they suddenly have to use a qualifier for their regional name not to be confused with the ethnic group, while the ethnic group itself doesn't have to do the same in turn. The qualifier, in this case, may sound as signifying that the Greek Macedonians are a subset of the ethnic Macedonians, while in essence both groups are subsets of the Macedonian regioners (which is the only group which should be left without qualifiers, since it is the supergroup of both and others). In this sense, simple logic tends to erroneously equate the ethnic Macedonians to the Macedonian regioners, which further helps in the advancement of the above historic and territorial claims (quite successfully obviously -for the mindset of their own population at least). Just try to read this paragraph here by removing the qualifiers I used ("Greek", "ethnic", and "regioner"). See also Macedonism and The Ten Lies of Macedonism.
----
For those reasons above, I believe that the most correct solution is to use the long name in all Greece-related articles. It is a matter of verifiability, of clarity, of common sense, and of common practice in WP and elsewhere. NikoSilver 13:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 5.Why are Greeks so irked

message: This is the view of most "moderate" Greeks. The vast majority of the Greek population is annoyed not because of the name itself, but of how this name has been used. A name alone cannot harm anyone, however, the name "Macedonia" is constantly used by official sources and schoolbooks of the country as a means to advance historic and territorial claims:
Historic: Most Makedonskis (in the real world and in WP) believe to their bone that they descend from Alexander the Great and his kingdom/empire. This is the result of governmental propaganda of years (cited in Macedonia (terminology)#Ethnic Macedonian nationalism (Extreme and moderate)). The problem of the Greeks is not necessarily to take their place in this genealogy tree (to which they arguably fit since the ancient Macedonians and their language/dialect were absorbed by the rest of the ancient Greeks). It is simply that the Slavs that came 1000 years later just don't have anything to do with them, yet they use that name to appropriate that part of history. I, as a Greek, don't see it as "stealing something which is mine". I see it as "monopolizing something which is everybody's, and definitely not only theirs".
Territorial: The persistence in the use of a name without the proposed qualifiers (such as Slav- or North) has been extended to territorial claims. It is the belief of most Makedonskis that Macedonia (Greece) (among others) is an "occupied region" of their country, merely because it carries the same name. This, again, is the result of governmental propaganda and is still endorsed by official printed material. For details, see also "United Macedonia".
It is worth to note that no Makedonski user of WP has ever criticized the above two fallacies, as it would be considered a "national crime"![4] On the other hand, there are many Greeks (in WP and in the real world) who have disputed the initial Greek position of "no Macedonia at all in the title". Hence, the Greek position has changed to demand just some sort of disambiguation. A disambiguation which would, of course, be totally unnecessary if the neighboring country didn't let those preposterous claims slip through official sources and if it didn't in fact endorse them.
Apart from those "material" claims, there is also the immaterial claim of the right to un-disambiguated self-identification. Most Greek Macedonians cannot understand why they suddenly have to use a qualifier for their regional name not to be confused with the ethnic group, while the ethnic group itself doesn't have to do the same in turn. The qualifier, in this case, may sound as signifying that the Greek Macedonians are a subset of the ethnic Macedonians, while in essence both groups are subsets of the Macedonian regioners (which is the only group which should be left without qualifiers, since it is the supergroup of both and others). In this sense, simple logic tends to erroneously equate the ethnic Macedonians to the Macedonian regioners, which further helps in the advancement of the above historic and territorial claims (quite successfully obviously -for the mindset of their own population at least). Just try to read this paragraph here by removing the qualifiers I used ("Greek", "ethnic", and "regioner"). See also Macedonism and The Ten Lies of Macedonism.
----
For those reasons above, I believe that the most correct solution is to use the long name in all Greece-related articles. It is a matter of verifiability, of clarity, of common sense, and of common practice in WP and elsewhere. NikoSilver 13:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Greek position

message: I have responded to four of Niko's points. If he continues to hold this position, I can only conclude that he did not mean to support the text of this policy as it stands, and that, accordingly, it is not a guideline, not being supported by consensus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:21, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It isn't "their own soil", that is the whole point of this enterprise. Wikipedia articles aren't WP:OWNed, not by individual editors and not by national communities. I find the suggestion that we are under a special obligation to take Greek readers' or editors' feelings into account just because an article is about a Greek town deeply disturbing and offensive against the spirit of Wikipedia. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:06, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're missing the point. If in EU government articles, the long name is used, why not in Greece government articles?--NetProfit 20:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This will soon be going into the next cycle because we've been through this. I've once tried to explain what the difference is; if people don't want to follow me there, the only consequence can be to get rid of the exception for the EU etc too, not extending it. It's not a terribly useful exception to begin with. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:12, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

text: What is a "Greek government article"? -- ChrisO 01:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Quite seriously, that would probably help; the fewer points of contention the better. This guideline is not intended to approve a separate usage in all  articles about Greece; and if that point is seriously disputed, again, there never was consensus for it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Separate usages are clearly incompatible with the fundamental requirements of WP:NPOV, which requires "a point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject." The fundamental rationale behind WP:NCON is that it's neutral to say what a self-identifying entity calls itself, but it's not neutral to use an alternative name because someone has a POV objection to that self-identifying name (in other words, a position that is "in opposition to its subject". The identification of the RoM effectively cleaves into two parts. First, in multilateral settings the RoM consents to be referred to (as opposed to calling itself) "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", "FYRO Macedonia" or the various other permutations thereof, depending on the institution in question. Second, in relation to Greece the interesting thing is that formally the RoM doesn't even use its UN provisional name - in bilateral agreements it's described only as "the Party of the Second Part to the Interim Accord September 13, 1995" without ever using the dreaded M-word. (See http://old.mfa.gr/english/foreign_policy/hiperb/bilateral/fyrom.html for an example.) I think we would rightly be ridiculed if we adhered to the Greek government's formal, legally applicable terminology and started talking about how "Pella is bounded ... by the national border between Greece and the Party of the Second Part to the Interim Accord September 13, 1995." -- ChrisO 00:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: After those agreements, the republic addresses Greece as FYROM for all purposes. NikoSilver 09:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Got a quote for that? In the RoM's own official voice, like a letter from the one government to the other? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments to Statement

message: I added the following language, which seems to me a direct corollary of Sysin's arguments for using FYROM in organizations that do: It should be clear to the reader that this is the organization's usage, not Wikipedia's. This is not intended to mean, of course, that we need a footnote to say so; the fact that we are reporting the official results of the European Song Contest should make clear to an intelligent reader that we are adopting their language. (Adding this explanatory sentence may be worth it.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. It's not their language, it's the language the state itself used for the occasion. If the state itself uses it then one can assume that for the purposes of the occasion and the article, that's the state's name, not some exonym.--NetProfit 22:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: More accurately, it's the language that the state was required to use for the occasion. If the RoM had its way, it would use its constutional name for everything. The RoM is in the rather unusual situation of not being permitted to use its own name for itself in many international venues, so if it wants to compete in Eurovision it has to use its provisional title. Taiwan is in a somewhat similar situation - it competes under the alias of "Chinese Taipei". It's plainly not a matter of self-identification, since the aliases differ from the official self-identifying names. I do agree with the general principle that in reporting the results of Eurovision, Olympics and suchlike, we should use their terminology for consistency with the sponsoring organisations. -- ChrisO 23:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's good enough for the Republic, it's good enough for Wikipedia. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 00:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether it's good or bad for the Republic is irrelevant. What matters is that it's consistent with the description applied by the sponsoring organisation. This is, of course, a rather different issue to the use of a term in relation to academic topics such as history, geography, demography etc. -- ChrisO 00:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I meant it in reference to your overdone sympathy for the poor old Republic's plight and your assertion that "it's plainly not a matter of self-identification". Its willingness to participate in international organisations as FYROM suggests it doesn't have as big a problem with it as you think. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 00:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I see what you mean. Does it have a problem with the appellation? I don't think they like it much, given their public statements on the subject, but they evidently regard it as a price they have to pay for the privilege (?) of competing for the glory of getting nul points in Eurovision. In any case, whether they like it or not isn't really relevant to our purposes here. It's not a matter of sympathising with them or, for that matter, opposing them - we just have to describe the situation as it is. -- ChrisO 01:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You'd be surprised how seriously they take Eurovision. It's the only guaranteed three minutes of fame they get all year. With the wars over and precious few sporting or other achievements to make the global headlines, the country needs all the exposure it can get. They may not like it much, but then Greeks don't particularly care for "Greece" either. It's an apt parallel; many Greeks despise it but it's hardly worth the risk of missing out on the Olympics or Eurovision, is it? The "Don't you FYROM me" campaign was simply a stunt aimed at scoring cheap political points in a tediously sluggish diplomatic dispute. It should be taken about as seriously as the corresponding Greek calls over the years to "call us Hellas, not Greece". ·ΚέκρωΨ· 01:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Organizations

message: Looking at this talk page, we are now fairly evenly divided between those who think former Yugoslav can and should be used in Greek-related articles and those who disagree. The notion that there was ever a consensus favouring the latter opinion, especially given the views of NikoSilver and Sysin who participated in the original discussion, is baffling to say the least. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 02:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The negotiations for this (former Wikipedian) guideline involved this question at several points; perhaps most extensively in the section called #my edits at the top of this page. It would never have been supported by anyone other a handful of Greek editors if they had said then what Niko now says and Sysin now acts on. It is therefore moot, not being, and never having been, consensus. If someone wants to form a new consensus on the subject, fine; it would seem simpler to require our editors to support our policies. WP:NCGN, which provides that the name of an article should be used in references to its subject, in a given period, will be adequate as an implementation of policy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consensus? 

message: Just a summary to clarify (again) this whole business of whether and how the RoM has "agreed" to the use of "fY..." in its relations to other parties, and whether that imposes some obligation on us to follow that usage in some context or other.
For the name "X" to be used in the relations between "A" and "B", can mean different things:
*What does A use when talking to B?
*What does B use when talking to A?
*What does A use when talking about its relations with B?
*What does B use when talking about its relations with A?
*What do A and B use when authoring texts in common?
Okay, so we have the following. (For all of these, examples have been cited somewhere above; I'm just too lazy right now collecting the links just now):
*Relations between the UN and the RoM:
**UN talking about/to RoM: "the former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia"
**RoM talking about/to UN: "Republic of Macedonia"
*Relations between the EU and the RoM:
**Texts authored in common (treaties, agreements, etc.): "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"
**EU talking about RoM: "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"
**RoM quoting EU talking about RoM: "Republic of Macedonia"
**RoM talking to/about EU: "Republic of Macedonia"
*Relations between RoM and Greece:
**Texts authored in common (treaties, agreements, etc.): "the party to the Interim Accord [...]" etc.
**Greece talking to/about RoM: "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"
**RoM talking about Greece: "Republic of Macedonia"
**RoM talking to Greece: ?
*Relations between RoM and sports organisations etc.:
**Texts/events under the authorship of the hosting organisation (e.g. RoM's banner carried during official ceremonies): "FYR Macedonia"
**RoM talking to/about these organisations: "Republic of Macedonia/Macedonia"
**RoM talking about itself during these events (e.g. RoM representative at song contest): "Macedonia"
I would say this thoroughly destroys the whole argument, even with respect to the EU, song contest etc., that we'd be obliged for the sake of correctness to use "fY..." in our Wikipedia articles. There is evidently no logical necessity to follow the naming convention used in some bilateral treaty, when even the parties to those treaties themselves feel free later to impose their own naming preferences over it. If the RoM can use its own preferred name in talking about its accession to the EU, and the EU does nothing to stop them, why shouldn't we be free to use our preferred name? (which, on independent grounds, happens to be also "RoM".)
The claim that RoM itself consistently uses "fY..." in its relations with these other parties is simply, demonstrably, false.
The only contexts where I can accept, as a matter of linguistic responsibiltiy, to follow one party's divergent naming preference regarding some other party is in "intensional contexts", when our statements contain an implicit reference to their opinion. (e.g. "Greece plans to enter into negotiations with FYROM"). I can accept - but that's already stretching it - to extend that to contexts like the reporting of official FIFA football results etc. But there's the line.
Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ..."agreed to use FYROM in bilateral relations"... 

message: I'm dropping here for discussion a few proposals that could greatly help clarity. Check the links by mouse-overing:
*Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
*Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
These could be also used in the articles in question with parentheses, as follows:
*(Former Yugoslav) Republic of Macedonia
*(Former Yugoslav) Republic of Macedonia
Or even with italics, to highlight that they may serve as a "quote":
*(Former Yugoslav) Republic of Macedonia
*(Former Yugoslav) Republic of Macedonia
Thoughts? NikoSilver 09:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd generally be in favour of exploring alternatives, in those cases where article authors really care about disambiguation needs. Too many links are not good though. For disambiguation and clarification, it's entirely sufficient to have, e.g. in History of Greece: "In the early 1990s, Greece faced the issue of how to deal with its former Communist northern neighbors, Albania,  Bulgaria and the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Works for me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To clarify this further. It seems to me we are talking of two different things when talking about "disambiguation" (hell, we've come so far we need to disambig disambig too!) What you want, Niko, is not disambiguation; you want to flag the term "RoM", in as many contexts as possible, as something problematic, something where we need to remind the reader of a complex background story. What I understand by "disambiguation" is something much simpler: picking out the right referent. As soon as a reader can mentally connect our reference to the RoM with the right colored speck on their world map, I'm done. Giving them an extra reminder link to the background may be legitimate in some contexts where those political implications are of immediate relevance to the article (so, yes, actually in the made-up example I gave above that might be such a case after all), but it's something extraneous to our normal needs of routine linking and naming. We should not be waving this warning flag every time we mention the RoM, just for the sake of it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text: In most contexts I can imagine, I'd personally prefer the one linking to the "Breakup..." article, if anything. If we feel we need to tell the reader we're talking about the former Yugoslavian thingie, then the first thing they need to know is why it's no longer Yugoslavian now, not why some people hate their name. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would imagine that in the specific context proposed (i.e. Gr-related articles), it would be equally (if not more) informative to explain why the very subject of the article "hates that name" than where it came from. Can you imagine an outside visitor to Florina not knowing and calling it M? After all, the subject of these articles is Greece and Greeks. NikoSilver 14:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Not proposing where to be used. I'm just dropping those names for discussion. Where would you use them (if you used them at all)? NikoSilver 11:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support my first guess (FYROM in EU... related articles and (FY)ROM in Greece related articles).--NetProfit 14:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Greece related articles" is not going to be a domain of any special status in this guideline. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any particular reason for that?--NetProfit 14:51, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sigh. All the above. WP:OWN. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:OWN is irrelevant, just as irrelevant as it is in the Gdansk/Danzig case also discussed above.--NetProfit 15:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever. Can't rehash all the argument with you again. Wikipedia doesn't do "islands in their own reality" in country-specific naming conventions. Period. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gdanzig...--NetProfit 08:28, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not an applicable parallel, as discussed earlier. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:56, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong. A very applicable parallel.--NetProfit 13:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is not. For at least three different reasons which you will find out if you read the previous discussions. Or else, you will not. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Just in case this wasn't clear, I certainly don't want to flag the term RoM as problematic. Greece has a problem with the name, Wikipedia hasn't. We will talk about that problem as an object of encyclopedic discourse where it's relevant, i.e. in the articles dedicated to it, but not just everywhere where we mention the RoM. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Presumably, it is irrelevant whether 'Wikipedia has or not a problem with the name'; it is not a state or an international institution but, ideally, an objective mirror. When the mirror is placed in front of the EU, UN, Fifa, Olympic Movement and so many other international organisations, it reflects 'former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'. Also, I would argue that Greece does not have a problem with the name per se, but with some pervasive irredentist aspects that accompany it. Politis 12:27, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is supposed to "mirror" facts about the EU, UN etc. Not their opinions. Certainly not Greece's. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:14, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

text: 'Opinion' can also refer to the legal document that explains the reasons for a judicial decision, as opposed to the decision itself - be it Greece's or the UN's. In this respect, it carries some weight. Politis 14:48, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody was talking about "opinions" in that sense, so what's the point? Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:49, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I think this debate has lost its rudder and is flapping about. Politis 15:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New Proposals

message: There is of course an elephant in the room in this discussion, namely that several of the participants have an overt political objection to the name and policies of the Republic of Macedonia. Niko has already made this clear in his wide-ranging denunciation of the RoM here, and NetProfit has made similar political assertions here. 
We aren't getting anywhere in this discussion because the two sides are coming at it from different directions. Fut.Perf, Septentrionalis and I are focusing on the requirements of Wikipedia policy, but some of the other editors are explicitly requiring a test of political acceptability - as Niko puts it, whether the outcome is seen as "anti-Hellenic" or as NetProfit puts it, whether "it's offensive and humiliating for Greeks".
Political criteria like that are completely irrelevant as far as Wikipedia is concerned. Wikipedia is not censored and WP:NPOV requires us to be politically neutral.  The project has no position on the rights and wrongs of disputes between the Greeks and (Slav) Macedonians, or for that matter any other two parties in a dispute. We can describe a dispute, but we're not allowed to take sides. As WP:NPOV says, "The neutral point of view is a point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject."
It can be difficult to meet that requirement when it comes to disputed names. Because we have to call an object something, whatever we chose is bound to upset someone. We have to take particular care when it comes to self-identifying entities (SIEs). If we refuse to use the name of an SIE, we're actively denying the verifiable fact that that's what it calls itself. On the other hand, if we use the name of an SIE we're merely reporting the fact that it calls itself by that name; we're not taking any position on whether the name is "right" or "wrong". That's the basis for the fundamental principle of WP:NCON: that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. So it doesn't matter that Greeks consider the name of the RoM "offensive and humiliating" - we're not in the business of editing Wikipedia to meet any country's standards of politically correctness. Perhaps in the end this exercise is a waste of time; NPOV is non-negotiable policy and doesn't require any sort of consensus. If editors want to dismiss it as a "sick linguistic notion", they're entitled to that opinion, but they're not entitled to their own policies. Articles about Greece don't have an exemption from NPOV, and Greek editors can't expect their political views to be given any special treatment. -- ChrisO 16:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I note that using the name FYROM is constantly claimed to be a breach of NPOV even though it is far from clear that this is the case. It's not clear that only ROM is the self-identifying name, it's not clear that there is only one self-identifying name, it's not clear that in this particular case the self-identifying name is the NPOV approach. These are just opinions (which certain people are trying to use as facts for deductive reasoning).--NetProfit 16:30, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ineligible considerations

message: Macedonian/Bulgarian ethnicity
There is a great deal of controversy over some people from the pre-1944 period who were born in what is now the Republic of Macedonia, Greek Macedonia or Blagoevgrad Province (Bulgaria), with Macedonians claiming them as ethnic Macedonians, and Bulgarians claiming them as ethnic Bulgarians.
The ethnicity of many of these figures is disputed, and many either did not publicly self-identify as Macedonian or Bulgarian, identified as both Macedonian and Bulgarian at various stages of their lives, or their self-identification is disputed.
It is unlikely that the dispute over the ethnicity over these people will ever be resolved, and therefore for these persons, the following guidelines should be used:
*state the person's name;
**the person's name can be included in both Macedonian and Bulgarian, with the language order following their ethnicity (see below). That is, if the person was an ethnic X, but also considered an ethnic Y, the language order should be XY;
*state where the person was born and died (where appropriate, comment on whether the town is now in the Republic of Macedonia, Greece or Bulgaria, and what country it was part of at the time (usually, the country of birth will be the Ottoman Empire)); and
*state the person's ethnicity/ethnicities.
The guidelines for addressing the person's ethnicity are as follows:
* where the person did not verifiably self-identify as Macedonian or Bulgarian:
** state that the person "is considered an ethnic Macedonian in the Republic of Macedonia, and is considered an ethnic Bulgarian in Bulgaria" or "is considered an ethnic Bulgarian in Bulgaria and is considered an ethnic Macedonian in the Republic of Macedonia";
** in the case of revolutionaries, the categories Category:Bulgarian revolutionaries and Category:Macedonian revolutionaries (ethnic group) can be added;
* where the person verifiably self-identified as either Macedonian or Bulgarian, but this self-identification is disputed:
** state that "Person Z was a Macedonian poet/writer/academic/etc, but is considered an ethnic Bulgarian in Bulgaria" (where applicable, you may also include a basis for the counterclaim); or
** state that "Person Z was a Bulgarian poet/writer/academic/etc, but is considered an ethnic Macedonian in the Republic of Macedonia" (where applicable, you may also include a basis for the counterclaim);
* where the person verifiably self-identified as Macedonian and Bulgarian at different times in their life:
** the last verifiable self-identification should be the operative one;
***for example, if Person Z self-identified as Macedonian in 1901 and as a Bulgarian in 1902, the wording should be: "Person Z was a Bulgarian, although he/she had also previously identified as a Macedonian.";
***if Person Z self-identified as a Bulgarian in 1901, and as a Macedonian in 1902, the wording should be: "Person Z was a Macedonian, although he/she had also previously identified as a Bulgarian."
These guidelines should only apply to persons born before 1944 (recognition of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia), and who were born in the region of Macedonia (that is, Vardar Macedonia, Pirin Macedonia/Blagoevgrad Province (Bulgaria), Greek Macedonia and the areas of Albania usually considered part of the region of Macedonia). In other articles referring to these persons, their ethnicity should not be mentioned unless it is relevant to the subject of that article (see WP:DUE).
The wording is a suggested format only, and need not be copied exactly, however, the wording should adhere to the general principles of the guideline.
:I'd say go for it, and we'll see if it works. Preslav (talk) 19:02, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, go, let's hope for the best. I'll personally stick to the time-stamp for my edits though. --Laveol T 19:16, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like no further comments, so I will do the formatting and upload the guideline... I guess we'll see how it goes! Cheers, AWN AWN2 (talk) 08:27, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Finalizing Guideline (Dec 14, 2007)