Talk:Middle name

message: I have reinserted the sentence on database problems with multiple middle names being sometimes regarded as discriminatory. This sentence was earlier removed by Seibzehn with no reasons given (the fact that it was mislabeled as a minor edit suggests that it may have been unintentional), but I believe it is sufficiently NPOV ("has been criticized"), and it does describe the real experiences of some people with multiple middle names. Vremya 08:51, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Multiple middle names

message: Does Wikipedia have any article on people who are known by their middle name?? Georgia guy 20:25, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of people?? 

message: Is it more popular in the USA to use just your middle initial on passports, driver license, ID's? or use the FULL middle name? I rarely see the middle name used on forms or ID's?
:It generally depends on the length of the middle name, and if that person likes it enough to use it. For example, if the full name will not fit on a driver license or passport, they will use the middle initial only. There is no legal naming convention in the U.S., so different agencies are permitted to handle this in any way they see fit, although in the future their may be standards across all federal and state agencies. See Real ID Act. 71.100.160.189 18:13, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Middle name or Middle Initial? 

message: I would like to see the Greek middle name system here also. In Greek, I know that the male's middle name is a patronymic: let's say that the father of Konstantinos Papadopoulos is called Pantelis, the full name of Konstantinos would be Konstantinos Panteli Papadopoulos (or Konstantinos Papadopoulos tou Panteli).
What happens with females? Do they also take their father's name (thus Konstantinos Papadopoulos's sister would be Maria Panteli Papadopoulou/Maria Papadopoulou tou Panteli)?
Once I know the information about the females I will edit this article.
Leon.
xcvb
The woman take their father's name also so it would be Maria Papadopoulou tou Panteli, it is rarely ever written with the father's name before the family name it is almost always written as "tou...."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.6.184 (talk) 19:28, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Greek Middle Name System 

message: The section on "Catholic" middle names seems to relate more to certain local European culture considerations than the wider Church; to the best of my knowledge there is no Church teaching/view on such names (please advise me if I'm wrong). The section should reflect this. Cheers, --Daveb 07:49, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catholic middle names 

message: "Despite their relatively long existence in the Western world, the phrase "middle name" was not recorded until 1835 in "Harvardiana", a school song of Harvard." Hmm just created Harvardiana no sign of "middle name" in it! Rich   Farmbrough 16:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a magazine as well.... Rich   Farmbrough 16:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harvardiana 

message: I have a big problem with this page. It seems to be predicated on on a false assumption that we have a first name and a surname, and that if we want any extra ones they have to go in between those. This leads to the POV that people who are 'known by their middle name' are somehow going against the natural order of things. In reality, plenty of people (me, for instance) have their 'extra' names placed before their main 'first name' (or even either side of it). My full name is Roy Grant Cribb, but I don't think of Grant as my 'middle name' - it's just my name. If someone asks me my first name, I say Grant. The reason it's Roy Grant rather than Grant Roy, is simply that my parents thought it sounded better that way round. From my point of view, 'central' and 'precursory' names make more sense than 'first' and 'middle', because 'middle names' only apply to people who are 'known by their precursory name'. The NPOV terms should be 'main forename' and 'supplementary forename'. Then it becomes apparent just how ridiculous it is to have a list of people known by middle name. If we had a list of people known by supplementary forename it would be empty, because, by definition, no one is. The only reason the 'middle name' list exists at all is that most of the schizonyms (people whose main forename and surname are separated) just don't realize how many of us juxtonyms there are. Roughly one in three twentieth-century British prime ministers, for instance, had supplementary forenames before their main forename.
What to do about it? I'd recommend scrapping this page and transferring any useful information to Given name. I'd also scrap the 'middle name' list; if it were complete it would contain the names of a large proportion of all the famous people who had ever lived.
The Font 12:58, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The whole concept

message: I don't think the statement that "In United States, the middle name is rarely used on official documents. The middle initial is used instead on most identity documents, passports, driver licenses, social security cards, and university diplomas" is totally accurate.  This may be a relatively new convention, but I have my full middle name on all those documents (issued between 1998 and this Tuesday). 
The US passport has spaces for "Surname" and "Given names".  The SSA's latest application for a new Social Security card (dated May 06) specifically asks for the "Full Middle Name" on page 5 .  I know some states require only the middle initial whereas others require the full middle name for a driver's license.  I think most universities ask you what name you want listed on your diploma; I know mine did.  I'm not sure what's meant by identity documents, but if it's not listed on your birth certificate and/or Social Security card, it would seem that it's legally not your middle name. Any input before I edit this statement? JordeeBec 22:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It varies, depending on how long your full name is and what you prefer to use. All of those documents use my full middle name, but if I had, say, a very long name like Michaelangelo followed by multiple middle names such as Jonathan Matthew Michael and then a long surname such as Stephens-Cardenas, it would be easier for them to simply put "Michaelangelo J. Stephens-Cardenas" on my driver license or social security card. There are no legal requirements for naming conventions in the U.S. 71.100.160.189 18:19, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Initial only on Security Documents? 

message: I would like to know about Russian, Baltic, and Central European naming practices.  I know they are not the same as in western countries.
*It is my understanding that for Russians, the middle name is an altered form of the father's first name, so a girl whose father is Mikhail has a middle Mikhailovna.  This seems to equate to Johnson, or Richardson meaning Son of John, or Richard. etc... although in the above example it would clear mean Daughter of Michael.  I do not have references for this.  Dachande 16:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Near East

message: I think the entire article is written from the U.S. point of view. There are some attempts to
make this clear, such as the "In the United States" in the first paragraph of the introduction
and the "In the United States" in the last paragraph of the section "Western", but there are still a number
of statements that seem to be referring directly to U.S. naming conventions. For instance: 
the increased use of computer databases that allow for only a single middle name or more commonly a middle initial in storing personal records seems to be only referring to the U.S.; in continental Europe, most forms and databases do not ask for middle names.
The two posters under "No Middle Name" confirm that the naming practice in Scandinavia and Italy is vastly different.
The same is true in other European countries, witnessed by the German wikipedia entry for middle name, where there is no distinction between various given names into "first" and "middle". Compare also the
German entry for first name which explicitly states
Im anglo-amerikanischen Raum sind Zwischennamen gebräuchlich, die auch Mittelnamen ("middle name") genannt werden und meistens mit dem Anfangsbuchstaben abgekürzt werden.
To summarize: The introduction and the section "Western" only describes the angloamerican naming practice,
but this is not properly mentioned in the article. I suggest rewriting the introduction, renaming the section "Western" into "USA" or "Angloamerican", and possibly adding a section (or sections) on other Western European naming conventions and traditions.  <author??>
:As for the statement above about European databases and forms not asking for middle initials, I would say that (at least in the Netherlands) this is only true for simple systems. More "official" systems do allow for (and often even require) all names being supplied. This is espacially true for e.g. governmental offices, insurance companies, banks, emplyee's databases, etc. --HHahn (Talk) 15:25, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Dispute

message: Google Books turns up two uses of "middle name" before 1835: first, A General Abridgment and Digest of American Law p.787 of 1829 - "To omit the middle name, or part of the Christian name, is a misnomer".  Second, The History of New England from 1630 to 1649 p.65 of the 1825 second edition - "But that middle name was derived from intermarriage of Adam, his great grandfather..." (note that the preface states that the book has been completely re-edited from the first edition of 1790). Warofdreams talk 03:22, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Earlier citations for "middle name"

message: I have known at least 2 people whose names differed from the father's only by their middle name/initial. In one case this happened for 2 consecutive generations. Of course, George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush are a particularly famous and peculiar example.
I'd like to know how common this is and how the distinction is made colloquially. In one of these cases, the father was called by his full first name and the son by his middle name. In another case, the son was known by his full first name and the father by his nickname.Bostoner (talk) 20:44, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Names that differ only by their middle name 

message: While preparing a catalogue of recordings by predominantly British performers, I came across several instances of "middle names" that do not seem to be just additional or alternative forenames, simply because these names do not occur as forenames on their own. It seems that the British - at least in the early 20th century - treated these "true middle names" differently from simple extra given names. My question is how to treat these in terms of alphabetization (in simpler words "Where would these people be listed in a telephone directory?")
Some examples to (hopefully) clarify what I'm talking about:
*Louise Kirkby Lunn - variously filed under "Kirkby" or "Lunn" in my sources
*David Lloyd George - always listed under "Lloyd" AFAIK, why?
*Herbert Beerbohm Tree - should he be with the "B"'s or with the "T"'s?
*Helen Porter Mitchell - "P" or "M" ?
OTOH there's no doubt that
*John William Myers is found under "M" and
*Erich Maria Remarque under "R"
so there seem to be two different phenomena at work here, or am I completely on the wrong track?
Chris (chris@truesoundtransfers.de)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.73.85.191 (talk) 16:15, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  British Middle Names vs. Multiple Forenames vs. Double-Barrelled Surnames 

message: The section on Sweden states: "Since Swedish-speakers nowadays only very rarely address one another with "Mr./Mrs. X", it is more or less a moot point if the correct term of address here is Mr. Svartholm Warg, Mr. Svartholm or Mr. Warg."
However, when referring to a person more formally, for instance in a written text (a book, a newspaper article etc.) one would normally use the family name, and rarely the given name alone. This example does not seem to be a typical one, and should perhaps be replaced. GVU (talk) 15:04, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Sweden

message: "In Brazil, the middle name is usually the mother's maiden name."
Are you sure about that? I am Brazilian, my middle name is "Henrique", which has nothing to do with anyone in my family at all. And I mean, I have yet to see someone here who was named after his mother's maiden name.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Faitudum (talk • contribs) 16:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brazil - Catholic Middle Names 

message: Been in Russia 6 years now and the wiki's suggestion that people tend to be quite formal is actually dying out among the younger generation (due to western influnces?).  In my company people can and do address their management on first name only terms, and sometimes even with diminutives, even up to our company president.  The older generation are indeed hopelessly formal and the middle generation seem to be slightly more relaxed, with the younger generation being quite informal.  I can't find any articles referencing this, but something may exist in Russian regarding this trend. 94.25.18.66 (talk) 08:26, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: We get that in England too.  It's the 'trendy' influence of American management culture. Personally  I'd prefer not to be called by my first name by everyone, especially people you've never met, and it is quite awkward (but the done thing) to contact people out of the blue, 'Hi Bob' or whatever.  Amusingly since I work for a multinational company with disfunctional database practices, I often get people from other countries using whichever name they think is my personal name, randomly, since different people on different email servers have different name ordering in the address book.  On one occasion for several months I was Bob in meetings and Smith in emails, and as far as I could work out they didn't know I was the same person :)    — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.139.234.242 (talk) 18:22, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evolving use of middle names in Russia 

message: I haven't edited on Wikipedia in a long time, so sorry if I don't format my comment correctly or something, but I just came to read this article and it doesn't seem to be in very good shape and I felt I should mention it. It's missing references, a lot of it is opinion, most of the Spanish section isn't even about middle names but surnames.... Hopefully some good editors can get to this. Shannernanner 04:07, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page needs help 

message: "If one of the forenames happens to be unisex (e.g. Robin or Toni)"
Both names are no examples because in German Robin is a male forename and Toni only a nick name for male Anton and female Antonia. I delete them. 93.231.181.28 (talk) 23:39, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Error in: German speaking countries 

message: How about some history about the origins of the custom? Both middle and last names are a relatively novel invention, and while I know why one name was not enough, a third one seems a bit redundant. 213.109.230.96 (talk) 03:25, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: British surnames were almost entirely fixed before the Tudor period, over 500 years ago. The British / US American practice of bestowing multiple forenames first appears in royalty and the upper nobility at the end of the C16th, slowly filtering down through the peerage in the C17th and the emergent middle class in the C18th. There was frequently an intent to honour relatives, ancestors or benefactors by including actual names or allusions within the multiple Christian names. Until WW2, there was still a trend in the UK for the number of given names to correlate with social standing. Since then, such distinctions have dwindled and excessively long (over four) multiple names have been bestowed for comedic or publicity reasons. The Queen's four children are Charles Philip Arthur George (from a previous King, his father, both an uncle and a mythical King, his grandfather), Anne Elizabeth Alice Louise (from a previous Queen, her mother, an aunt, another aunt), Andrew Albert Christian Edward (from personal choice, an uncle, personal choice, another uncle) and Edward Antony Richard Louis (from an uncle, personal choice, a previous King, another uncle). Astronomy Explained (talk) 13:40, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, the Queen's father was named Albert Frederick Arthur George and usually known as Albert or Bertie, but took George as his regal name to emphasise continuity with his father George V after the turbulence of the abdication. Prince Charles could avoid any perceived negative historical regal connotations of his current name by choosing to be crowned as George VII (or even King Arthur). Astronomy Explained (talk) 13:50, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  History? 

message: I have deleted the section "Welsh", which was  02:34, 8 January 2016, by anonymous user Special:Contributions/188.223.181.167 with the edit comment (Welsh 'Ap' as middle name). It is both irrelevant and plagiarized, and almost certainly copyvio.
;Irrelevant 
Ap means 'son of' and is no more a name, let alone a middle name, than Irish mac or Hebrew ben or Arabic ibn, all equivalent.
;Plagiarized 
The entire section is plagiarized. Shortly after it was added I noticed a "[2]" and  with the memo   Removed "[2]". Is this new section plagiarized, with that from a footnote link? Just now I ran a Google search for a distinctive string from it, 
: "names such as Llewelyn ap Dafydd ab Ieuan ap Griffith ap Meredith were not uncommon"
(with quotation marks) and found nine matches. The top one was this section; a couple of others cited it; one site requires registration; and others apparently don't contain the string at all. 
But 
# The text used in the section appears, complete, in Irishabroad.com in the post by "mckai" dated "11 Jan 10 16:42:47". There it has four footnote tags ([1], [2]), indicating that it was copied from some other text, but there is no attribution. 
# The first two paragraphs are also quoted in Rootschat forum, dated "Monday 21 June 10 22:27 BST (UK)", also with footnote tags and no attribution. 
Since these posts predate the section by over five years, they clearly were not quoting it— let alone the evidence of the three footnote tags that the IP editor evidently noticed and deleted. --Thnidu (talk) 05:05, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Welsh 

message: Section South Asia begins
: In Nepal, the first initial is frequently a family name assigned to every member of a particular family, and is usually in addition to the last name. It is carried by every member of the paternal family. For example, Ram Baran Yadav can be broken down into Yadav, the Nepalese surname; Baran, the family name; Ram, the first name.
This makes no sense: 
# An initial is not a name.
# If "first initial" is an error for "first name", the first sentence contradicts the example, in which Ram, the first name, is apparently the individual's given name. 
# So what's the name "assigned to every member of a particular family ... usually in addition to the last name, [and] carried by every member of the paternal family"? Is it Yadav, the "Nepalese surname", or is it Baran, the "family name"? There's no clue.
--Thnidu (talk) 21:26, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nepal 

message: Within the English section, Some notable anglophones known by their middle names is a list of (currently) 146 articles, and it keeps growing. No other section of this page has such a list, of any length. Its current growth spurt is due in large part to anonymous users 96.249.6.241 and 96.249.10.110 and to user Cornnich, who has no user page but whose user talk page shows a number of complaints and blocks due to edit warring. Any two or all three of these could be the same person.
I am not suggesting that there's anything wrong with this list, much less that it is vandalism. But I am moving it to a page of its own, List of notable anglophones known by their middle names, with a cross-reference from the section here and a redirect from List of notable English-speakers known by their middle names, and including it in :Category:Human names and :Category:Lists. Please  me to discuss. --Thnidu (talk) 20:57, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving list to separate page 

message: The accompanying article has the potential for being a valuable source of information, but has been gotten off to a dreadful start due to both 
: evidently being started by us virtually history-less people north of the Rio Grande, and
: the efforts to rescue it apparently being slapped on one at a time by editors with substantially nothing to add beyond one or two additional cultures.
   I propose that the article be renamed to Culture-specific patterns for full names of humans, organized by country as a default (so there's at least one place for each culture with a pattern substantially different from those already covered, or group of cultures sharing a pattern), with long-term goals of probably organizing hierarchically into narrower  cultural patterns within the broad cultural patterns.   It'd be great if someone a lot of multi-cultural experience (in practice, perhaps necessarily an academic specialist) comes up with a title that avoids our current myopic name that is too Western- or even American- focused to be more than a barrier to further broadening of the scope. We have plenty of competent speakers of English who are not functionally blind beyond Anglo-Saxon culture (which i for instance substantially am), and i think such a person should start by renaming the accompanying article, to embrace even more extra-American content than the article already does in spite of the myopic title "Middle name".--Jerzy•t 17:19, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: "Culture-specific patterns for full names of humans" sounds to me like a description of what should be in the article personal name and a whole range of other articles. Not like a good idea for the expansion of this article in particular. --Hegvald (talk) 05:18, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Divide (or better yet, Rename) 

message: Our article Given name seems to treat "first name" and "given name" as synonymous, rather than middle names being just part of one's given names. Attention must be paid.--Jerzy•t 19:04, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely it cannot have passed out of currency just yet, that up until, I would hazard a guess, the 1980s in the UK, it was at least as common as first name to speak of a person having a Christian name, even in contexts where it was clear the person under discussion was not a Christian, or had even been baptised. Nuttyskin (talk) 11:50, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Given name" is ambiguous 

message: In Arabic culture, forenames can be multiple names but there are no proper middle names. When reading an individual's name and noticing three names separated by spaces, it's safe to assume the first name as the given name, the second name as the father's name, and the last name as the surname.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamdan2~arwiki (talk • contribs) 19:32, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: See patronymic. --Hegvald (talk) 05:14, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arabic 

message: "In several cultures, people's names usually include one or more names." - what does that even mean?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.195.99.20 (talk) 14:34, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro 

message: That term redirects here, but there is not a word about it. In America, at least, John B Doe is a very common name form. Wouldn't it a good idea to explain clearly what that "B." is. What's that "F." in John F. Kennedy called, what's the term for it? Who knows? Wikipedia doesn't. Major flaw here. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:44, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Middle initial?

message: As we use additional first names and call them middle names in everyday language, I think my added explanation is necessary. The translation of middle names is not 1:1 between e.g. UK and Scandinavic countries, and UK's middle names are similar to additional first names due to both using common given names in both. The law is another thing entirely, and it should not be considered of main importance when referencing Scandinavian culture, and should be explained in relation to it. The discrepancy can't be explained without explaining both. Would love to see some citations, and more input from others as I'm a Swede. Kameloso (talk) 01:34, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I added sources in Swedish, Norwegian, and Danish. I can't read Icelandic, and therefore it's not included. I wasn't able to find sources in English, so hopefully this will do for now? Kameloso (talk) 14:11, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scandinavia 

message: :
This begins a paragraph about U.S. politicians who prefer their middle names.
And then a paragraph about British politicians who prefer their middle names.
And then a paragraph about Nazis who preferred their middle names.
This weirdly gives the impression that it's more common in politics, which seems quite unlikely.  I'll try to remember to add some non-political names in here, and trim the political list. —Tamfang (talk) 06:16, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  politicians 

message: The section Middle_name#Middle_name_as_primary_forename has the following paragraph:
In Germany, during the Nazi period, several Nazis were known by their middle names. Examples include Joseph Goebbels (Paul Joseph Goebbels), Adolf Eichmann (Otto Adolf Eichmann), Erwin Rommel (Johannes Erwin Eugen Rommel), Hermann Fegelein (Hans Otto Georg Hermann Fegelein), Magda Goebbels (Johanna Maria Magdalena Goebbels) and Joachim von Ribbentrop (Ulrich Friedrich Wilhelm Joachim Ribbentrop).
These examples don't make sense. In Germany, there are no middle names. There are only multiple given names.
See also Talk:Middle_name#Is_Johann_Sebastian_Bach_a_good_example?, above. The concept of middle names didn't exist in the 18th century (the age of Bach), and it didn't exist in the 20th century either.
--188.100.54.167 (talk) 15:44, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I have the impression that, opposite to the anglophone tendency, in German the last of the given names is typically the one in daily use; is that right? —Tamfang (talk) 05:29, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  German examples in "Middle name as primary forename"