Talk:Operation Flash

message: Why did you remove the Serbian version of the number of refugees? The article should be displayed all versions, not just the Croatian! Соколрус (talk) 16:52, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed it because international sources such as HRW and well respected historians such as Ramet (both sources used in the article) have put the total number of persons living in the area (civilians+military) at 13-14 thousand. Consequently there could not be 15,000 refugees.--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:55, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Number of 1,500 people remaining is also provided by Ramet (i.e. not a Croatian source).--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:58, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, but the Serb sources say that before the operation the population was 29,000. The list of sources is necessary? We need a version of both sides, not just one. Соколрус (talk) 17:01, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not according to Veritas - it claims 15,000. On the other hand Veritas also claims 30,000 refugees - quite clearly illustrating how reliable their figures are.--Tomobe03 (talk) 17:14, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Where Veritas says about 30,000 refugees? Соколрус (talk) 17:18, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here. Veritas claims 15,000 lived in the area.--Tomobe03 (talk) 17:44, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  It says B92, not Veritas. From your link Veritas says: The documentation-information center Veritas announced that "on May 1, 1995, Croatian armed forces conducted an aggression on the Western Slavonia area where some 15,000 Serbs lived under UN protection". Соколрус (talk) 17:46, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm glad you just disproved your claim above of 29,000 living in the area. Thanks.--Tomobe03 (talk) 17:48, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Are you talking about? Veritas says 15,000 refugees, other sources say that before the surgery there lived 29,000. You do not understand me? Or what is the problem? Соколрус (talk) 17:52, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  The problem is that HRW says 13,000 lived in the area, Ramet says 14,000. In either case it is impossible to have more than 14,000 refugees if 13 or 14 thousand left the area and 1,500 stayed behind (according to Ramet). Since you agree those are fine sources, do you understand me?--Tomobe03 (talk) 17:54, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Even if they are good sources, the Serbian version of the number of people living in the area should be in the article. Соколрус (talk) 17:57, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Had you taken the trouble to read it, you'd see that it already is in there (per Veritas).--Tomobe03 (talk) 17:59, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  You should not take offense. I'm not criticizing you, and try to improve the article. Show me where in the article there is the Serbian version of the 29,000 residents? Соколрус (talk) 18:02, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Never mind responding to this. The 29,000 claim is so good illustration of propaganda refuted by HRW, I'll include it anyway.--Tomobe03 (talk) 18:10, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  29000 - this census in Krajina in 1993. I will add this information tomorrow. Соколрус (talk) 18:14, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Don't bother, it'll be in in about a minute.--Tomobe03 (talk) 18:14, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

text:  As an aside - bear in mind that RSK considered Sector West outside RSK control as an occupied part of RSK. Are you sure the census did not include an "estimate" of population living in those areas - substantial towns are located there, including Daruvar, Pakrac, etc? The number appears suspiciously round, i.e. 29.000 exactly, while for instance 82,406 residents of Kordun are reported.--Tomobe03 (talk) 18:18, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  29,000 only in the territories under the control of Serbian Krajina. Yes, the figures are approximate. Perhaps this can be explained by the constant migration of Serbs in Western Slavonia, or problems with the statistics in the region. Соколрус (talk) 18:23, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

text:  Ok, I think you need to specify the Serbian version of the 15, 000 refugees and write that this is the Serbian version. This number is called not only Serbian sources, but also Russian sources from the Academy of Sciences. Соколрус (talk) 18:33, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  What purpose would that serve? It would benefit the article as much as writing that Australian sources agree with the HRW.--Tomobe03 (talk) 18:40, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

text:  The Serbian claims are well and truly specified in the prose. They are not included in the infobox because they are refuted by international, well respected and highly esteemed sources.--Tomobe03 (talk) 18:41, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, however Guskova - known and respected international source and expert from UN. Соколрус (talk) 18:44, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Congratulations. Guskova really writes about this as 15,000. I am really amused by your waving her qualification as a member of the Russian Academy, but fail to note that her writings may be biased a bit more than HRW or Ramet's - after all she's a member of the Senate of the Republika Srpska and a particular fan of indicted war criminal Ratko Mladić (per Serbian source). That's classical POV pushing from you. Thanks.--Tomobe03 (talk) 18:49, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is not proof that it is biased or distorted data. Thank you :) Соколрус (talk) 18:55, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

text:  I added the book of Konstantin Nikiforov - a famous historian. He is director of the Institute of Slavic Studies of Russian Academy of Sciences. I think you will not challenge the authority of the director of a specialized research institute of Russian Academy of Sciences. Соколрус (talk) 19:03, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serb refugees 

message: You're talking about ethnic cleansing of the Serbian Krajina. Why did not you write that in Western Slavonia in 1991 were expelled tens of thousands of Serbs? Соколрус (talk) 06:56, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That information (70,000 refugees) is a blatant lie and POV pushing. Please provide a single non-Serbian and non-Russian source - for instance Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch or Helsinki Committee to substantiate that. The two offensives captured sparsely populated mountainous areas and no significant settlements changed hands. You are actively pushing pro-Serbian POV.--Tomobe03 (talk) 09:39, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Actually that claim is so outlandish and improbable given geographic and dempgraphic realities of the area involved, I'll require here multiple western, highly relevant and esteemed sources to back up that claim per WP:EXCEPTIONAL (a part of WP:V) or the claim will be removed.--Tomobe03 (talk) 09:47, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Before you ask me to other sources, first justify claims against the book of Konstantin Nikiforov. And tell me more, why sources fron USA can be used in the article, while Russian sources can not?  Just because they write about what you do not like? Соколрус (talk) 15:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

text:  I can remove the figure of 70 000 and replace it with "a lot of the Serbs." However, the expulsion of Serbs in 1991 - and the fact that he will remain in the article.Соколрус (talk) 15:33, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

text: You are right, probably Nikiforov was mistaken in exact figure. However ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Slavonia is the fact. I cleaned exact figure. Соколрус (talk) 16:15, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Mate, you are going to have to try a little harder with your English expression. Reading your comments gives me a headache. Peacemaker67  (send... over) 10:36, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic cleansing 

message: Why did you write that only Serbs shelled the Croatian town, but do not write that Croats bombed cities of Serbian Krajina? Соколрус (talk) 16:02, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bombings of the cities 

message: You write that the Bosnian Serbs helped Serbian Krajina. But you don't write that at the same time the army of Croatia in the territory of Bosnia was at war against the Bosnian Serbs. Why? Соколрус (talk) 16:10, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bosnian Serbs and Croatian army in Bosnia 

message: In the lead of this article it says "42 HV soldiers and Croatian policemen were killed in the attack and 162 wounded." However, in the infobox it mentions that these casualties were just military, with no mention of the police. Which is it? 23 editor (talk) 01:36, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The infobox is a summary and should not list in detail information which must be presented in the article. The Croatian force largely consisted of army soldiers, but included two battalions of special police (listed in orbat), subordinated to the HV Bjelovar Corps. All casualties inflicted upon men commanded by a military staff (Bjelovar Corps in this case) are ipso facto military casualties, regardless if the men were soldiers, policemen or taxi drivers a week before their conscription/subordination to the HV.--Tomobe03 (talk) 09:23, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Military

message: Operation Spark (1940) begins "Operation Spark (sometimes translated as "Operation Flash") was the code name for the planned assassination of Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler ...".  I therefore added a hatnote to this article to link to that article, so that any reader who wanted to find information about the subject of that article, and who was using that translation, would be referred to that article. User:Peacemaker67 reverted that edit on the basis that "Not the same operation name, seems pointless". For the reasons set out above, I feel that the hatnote is useful, and I propose to reinstate it. Alekksandr (talk) 14:12, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Operation Spark (1940) is a very poor quality article that is almost completely uncited, and no original German word for the operation is given in the article to justify it being referred to as "Operation Flash". I don't think we should be pointing to an article of such low quality that fails to even justify the alternative name. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 00:41, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Operation Spark (1940)