Talk:Michel Roger Lafosse

message: I wonder if this article shouldn't be at Prince Michael of Albany.  His claims are bogus, sure, but this is what he is known as, and has written books as, and so forth.  The article text's using Michel Lafosse first is fine, though. john k 19:40, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it is what he is known as by himself, and by the small circle of people who accept or say they accept his claims. To the Belgian tax authorities, who I believe are taking a close interest in his affairs, he is known as Monsieur Lafosse. Having an article called Prince Michael of Albany, as opposed to a redirect, would seem to me to be a Wikipedia endorsement of his claims. We don't have an article for Henry IX of the United Kingdom. So far as I know we don't have articles under their self-claimed titles for even legitimate claimants to extinct thrones. Lafosse is just a con artist and shouldn't be dignified in this way. Adam 03:22, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: See for example Henri, Comte de Paris, Duc de France - not Henry VII of France. Adam 03:25, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: He does not call himself Henry VII of France.  He is known to his own followers as the Comte de Paris...Similarly, Cardinal York was not generally known as Henry IX (and he'd be "Henry IX of England", at any rate, since the creation of Great Britain and later of the UK were illegitimate in Jacobite eyes.)  We do have Louis XVII of France, who never reigned, because that is how he is best known, and also Napoleon II of France.  More to the point, we have Emperor Norton, who was, in fact, not an emperor. john k 19:46, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Humph - well, we shouldn't have. Bogus persons shouldn't be dignified with titles. Lafosse is not a prince and we shouldn't connive at his fraud by calling him one. Adam 19:52, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Screaming Lord Sutch was not a lord, either - we just need to be careful to distinguish actual titles from bogus ones in the article text.  The Wiki naming guideline says to call people what they're best known as, at least in the title.  But I don't feel that strongly about it.  Perhaps other opinions would be useful...maybe I'll list at Requests for Comment. john k 20:05, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: You appear to be confused about the burden of proof.  Lafosse has claimed to be the king of Scotland, and it's up to him to prove it, not up to anyone else to disprove it.  Idi Amin also called himself the king of Scotland.  Do we have to disprove that as well?
No, his claims are completely fraudulent.  Charles Stuart never divorced his wife, and never had a legitimate son.  The "evidence" that Lafosse presents to show that he did is laughable at best, and the narrative that he creates is basically nonsensical - there was absolutely no reason that such a legitimate heir would have been kept secret.  Furthermore, the genealogy which Lafosse presents to get from this fictitious son of the Young Pretender to himself is equally ridiculous.  See  for a thorough rebuttal of Lafosse's claims. john k 05:01, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: First section

message: Is there something wrong with the sizing of the image? ~ Dpr 06:48, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: (although not the Stewart clan).
I was always under the impression that, as a lowland family of continental origins (they shared a common male ancestor with the Earls of Arundel), the Fitzalan/Stewarts were not a clan.  Our Scottish clan article, at least, implies that "clan" generally applies to highland families of Gaelic origin, although there are apparently some lowland clans - but also of Gaelic origin. I'm going to remove this statement unless somebody objects. john k 16:56, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not believe that the lowland Stewarts(as opposed to the Stewarts of Appin) were actually a clan prior to the registration of lowlands clans in the early nineteen century, Mr. Kenney, but I am certain that the Royal Stewarts possessed a tartan(something that only Highland clans usually possessed).--Anglius 20:57, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Stewart clan?

message: This article needs in-text citation. I imagine most of the material within it is lifted from the external links. Someone who is familiar with the pages - perhaps even the person who wrote the text - might be good enough to add proper referencing? I don't doubt for a second that the overwhelming consensus in publication is that Lafosse is either misguided or a fraud, but the article is written in very strong tones and needs to be fully cited in order to justify these tones. Nach0king 10:51, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Matching the External Links to the article

message: Your article is an objective assessment of a truly silly subject.  I do, however, wonder if it is worth including such an item when there have been countless pretenders of one kind or other throughout history; the subject could justify a whole encyclopedia of its own.  In the past such people tended to have a harsh fate: I know of at least one pretender to the Scottish throne who was burned alive.  I certainly have no ill-will towards this man: the worst fate I have in mind is that he marries the Grand Duchess Anastasia (or a descendent thereof)and rides off to Tir na nOg on the back of Shergar, and there read how the Earth is really flat, while he is being seranaded by Elvis Presley.  Less charitable people might feel that he deserves the same fate as the Dook and the Dauphin in Huckelberry Finn.
Rcpaterson 23:09, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Silly Subject 

message: As his legal name by deed poll seems to be "Michael James Alexander Stewart of Albany"
Lets just call him "Michael Albany" or "Mr. Michael Albany" or "Mr. Michael J.A.S.O. Albany". As we commonly represent middle names in this fashion - "J.A.S.O.", even his last middle name "Of". As for his surname "Albany", it's common enough
:And your reference for the change of name by deed poll is? - Nunh-huh 06:27, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I highly doubt that "of" is a middle name. If indeed that there is a deed poll, Stewart of Albany would be his last name. Charles 02:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mr. Michael Albany 

message: Make him get a Dna test
:And compare it with whom?  According to the article, he claims Stewart ancestry through his mother. There isn't a way to test for that. -Acjelen 19:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's not possible that his "claim is perfectly valid", since the genealogy he presents to support it is false. - Nunh-huh 21:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

text: It's not a question of "no record in Scotland", it's no record anywhere in the world. His claim is that the records were in the Vatican Archives: he provided no specific citation so that other people could go and have a look, but he did produce an alleged letter of authentication. The archivist who is supposed to have written this letter has stated categorically that it is a forgery. This pretty much wraps up the "record of the marriage" claim.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.32.236 (talk) 23:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Michael of albany  

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Forgotten monarchy.jpg

message: :Image:Michael-albany.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Michael-albany.jpg

message: This whole discussion has gotten mean-spirited and pedantic, what with Adam's harumphing over "bogus people".  I am the first to admit that Lafosse is an imposter in that he in no way descends from the house of Stuart.  However, this does NOT, I repeat, NOT in any way invalidate his status as a prince.  If he is regarded as a prince by his supporters, and accepts and adopts the title, than he is de facto, though not de jure, a prince, albeit not a Stuart.  Emperor Norton was indeed an emperor, because others recognized him as such, even if in an indulgent, pitying way.  If he got his currency accepted by willing accomplices, he is an emperor in my book.  In my book, this is every bit as legitimate as the aforementioned Duke of Bavaria and Stuart claimant, since neither Germany, Bavaria, or the UK officially recognizes ANY of his titles, either.  These days, one does not need governmental powers to be a prince, even Elizabeth II is a mere figurehead.  You may not, and indeed, need not, recognize these titles, but others do.  I say this article should be titled Michael of Albany, and Emperor Norton must remain Emperor Norton.  To say these people are not princes and emperors angers me, and is inaccurate.  By all means, point out the holes in their claims (and even sanity), but acknowledge the titles as existing, even if you don't agree with them.  I myself claim to be the Prince Corzich, and even if you don't agree, (you dont have to) it is petty in the extreme to refuse to acknowledge how I refer to myself, and how some others have referred to me, if even in jest.  Who the heck is Adam to decide what is a "real" prince in an age where very little royalty is even recognized by their home country?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.65.226.12 (talk) 01:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Because, Mr. or Ms. Anonymous in Pennsylvania, that's simply not the way that titles work. In order to possess an hereditary title, one must either be recognized by the authorities of the nation or kingdom from which it is derived, or be the legitimate and most direct descendant of such a titled person (that's an oversimplification, but it's the gist of it).  Michael Lafosse is not recognized by the nation of Scotland, by Great Britain, the United Kingdom or any other kingdom, principality or government. None. Nor has he demonstrated his direct, legitimate descent from anyone who once was. Indeed, the overwhelming weight of evidence is against his claims, from his real birth certificate to the nonexistence of the bodies he supposedly serves on (cf. the "European Council of Princes"). You claim that it "...is petty in the extreme to refuse to acknowledge how I refer to myself, and how some others have referred to me, if even in jest".  Well, no. "Jest" isn't the province of encyclopedias. Charlatans like Lafosse are able to swindle people entirely due to their appearance of legitimacy (why else would they put so much effort into establishing their legitimacy?)  Sources like WP must be careful to not be made party to such ploys. Ultimately, if people want to call him "Prince Michael of Albany", no one is going to stop them. But until he is recognized by a nation or can prove his legitimacy, he must be referred to in encyclopedias like WP by his legal (i.e., birth) name, rather than a fraudulent one that he assumed later on with the intention of defrauding others. Bricology (talk) 08:56, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  To pick a nit — plenty of people are listed here by their stage names rather than by their birth names.  —Tamfang (talk) 22:35, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes but those people aren't actually claiming a title.  Prince doesn't actually claim to be the Prince of any where.--124.188.98.26 (talk) 07:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

text: I recently tried to edit the article by mentioning that Prince Michael of Albany does not appear to have been heard from or of since 2006. This observation was removed by an editor in line with the WP:NOR policy. A discussion can be found at Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard   Radex09 (talk) 19:30, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: gripe

message: :  I recently tried to edit the article by mentioning that Prince Michael of Albany does not appear to have been heard from or of since 2006. This observation was removed by an editor in line with the WP:NOR policy. A discussion can be found at Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard   Radex09 (talk) 19:30, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apparent disappearance of Prince Michael of Albany 

message: I have added a footnotes section, linked all inline references to it, and have removed the "uncited" tag as the article does have sources.  If anyone would like to add back  tags that would be fine, as long as they are attached to particular statements that seem suspect.  That makes it easier to find agreeable citations, rather than trying to resource the entire article.Wjhonson (talk) 01:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Footnotes

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