Talk:Midnight Syndicate/Archive 5

message: *This page was not properly archived the first time (using a forward slash instead of a backslash, thereby negating the parent page and erasing the diffs to that point), which makes it impossible to cite. Also, SkinnyMcGee did not link the archive back here, and noted it as being an "inactive" part, and it certainly bears on this discussion. I will attempt to make a  linkable archive and may request the history be fixed. Peacekpr 04:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you talking about?  The link to the archive is at the top of the page  Dionyseus 05:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm still not clear on what you mean either.  I did use a backslash and the link to the archive works just fine.  I did go to the archive and add a link back to the current page.  The archived discussion is inactive as we weren't adding content to those sections anymore and I'm sure Oroboros 1/GuardianZ included any relevant information from these sections in her posts regarding the RFC, semi-protection of the page, etc.  There is more than enough information here for an editor unfamiliar with the debate to have a full understanding of what's going on, and the archive is easily accessible if they need more.  - Skinny McGee 20:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay, this is getting crazy.  I followed the instructions on the most common way to archive to the letter.  When you pointed out there was not link "BACK HERE," I added one (I just checked and it works fine).  I noted it was "INACTIVE" because that's what the instructions said to do and, as I mentioned at least once before, we weren't adding to those sections anymore.  I have not been proven to be anyone's sock puppet (the only conclusion was that Defender99 and I were the same, but I already explained that).  Saying it over and over again doesn't make it so.  I am not attempting to subvert the process, just protecting myself.  I am not the one who had Oroboros 1 and GuardianZ talking to each other when they were the same person.  When I removed the SSP template off my user page, the supporting article did not exist, so I was perfectly within my rights to do so.  You are on a campaign against me and I need to defend myself. - Skinny McGee 14:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving 

message: In the interest of assuming good faith and all that, I will address your comments.  However, I would first like to point out that I have a strong suspicion, although the checkuser request was inconclusive, that you and GuardianZ are one and the same.  That was made even more apparent to me when I reviewed posts both of you made last night in which you both misspelled “warring”, a word I wouldn’t think people misspell too often. GuardianZ posted on Jaranda’s  talk page and Peacekpr on Deathrocker’s  talk page.  In both cases, it was spelled "waring".   Also, both persist in abbreviating “compact disk” with lower case letters (“cd”), when convention dictates it should be capitalized (“CD”).  I guess I’m not surprised to see that Peacekpr seems to agree with GuardianZ on just about every point.  But, moving on, here it goes:
1. Label information 
* You contend Vargo produced 2 albums, "Born of the Night" and "Realm of Shadows", under his own publishing label, Monolith Graphics.   I have the CDs right here.   First off, all of the music on both those CDs is published by Linfaldia Records (a division of Entity Productions). The BMI registration for the two albums shows Linfaldia Records (Born of the Night and Realm of Shadows), as did the AMG review.  There is no evidence to support that Monolith Graphics was the label for either release (Amazon.com is hardly encyclopedic).  Both Entity Productions and Monolith Graphics are listed on the back of “Born of the Night.”  On “Realm of Shadows” Monolith Graphics is not mentioned anywhere (except in reference to the artwork), only Entity Productions.   As far as this “Producer” claim, Joseph Vargo is credited as Executive Producer of “Born of the Night,” not Producer.  For "Realm of Shadows," it says “All Music Produced by Midnight Syndicate” and “Midnight Syndicate is Edward Douglas and Gavin Goszka.”  The only mention of Joseph Vargo on “Realm of Shadows” is for narration on one song and the artwork.
* You say “Press material cited by Skinny McGee indicates that Entity Productions took on the distribution "full-time" in 2001, which is after Vargo left the band (or the band decided to part ways). It seems to me that "full-time" means that someone (Vargo) was also distributing and promoting before 2001.”  Actually, that’s not what the article said at all.  To repeat what I said a few weeks ago, Oroboros 1 (proven sockpuppet of GuardianZ) was quoting the article out of order and thus changing the meaning to suit her own purpose.  After discussing how the success of Born of the Night was overwhelming, the article goes on immediately to say, "Nevertheless, its creators couldn't convince record labels or distributors of this fresh genres economic potential.... Goszka and Douglas decided to build their own distribution network."  Then it talks about how Douglas made cold calls across the country and then it states "It was a part-time venture for both men."  The article goes on to say “Douglas went full-time in 2001”.  It does not say he went full time on distribution, but full time period.  That is, Douglas was working some other job and running Midnight Syndicate at the same time, but then he quit the other job to focus fully on Midnight Syndicate.
* You say “web archives establish that Monolith Graphics published and promoted the cds on their website.”  What does this prove?  They were selling the CDs just like any else who carried them, so of course they were on their website.  
* Regarding the albums being the official soundtracks for Halloween Horror Nights, that is in the article right now.  I was mistaken in removing it when I did and it’s been back in for some time.
2. The time period during which the former and current members meet. 
Just because you can show Douglas and Vargo met late in 1997 doesn’t mean they immediately got together.  I would guess these things take some time.  And anyway, the article as it reads now clearly indicates Douglas and Vargo teamed up first, and then Goszka joined, so I’m not sure what the problem is there.  As far as how long it takes to record and release a CD, Joseph Vargo could tell you himself that they can come together very quickly.  His band, Nox Arcana, has released four CDs in the last two years in addition to collaborating with someone else on another full CD.  Pretty quick.  And certainly, with regard to writing and recording music, it’s more important to have both members of the band on board than it is to have an Executive Producer.
  
3. Vargo's influence on band's change of focus 
Just because Vargo was there when Midnight Syndicate streamlined their focus, it doesn’t mean that he’s solely responsible as GuardianZ would have us believe.  Anyone who has taken an Elementary Logic class knows that’s a logical fallacy.  Douglas has said in several interviews (including some of those listed in the article) that he was always fascinated with horror, so it’s not hard to believe he would want to explore that in his music.  And the first, self-titled, release included a number of darker tracks.  Goszka says he’s an avid ghost hunter, so I’m sure he has some inclination in that direction as well.  Anyway, Douglas and Goszka wrote all the music for “Born of the Night” and “Realm of Shadows,” so I would think they share some of the credit for the sound of the album.  Cine-fusion, as described in the article, refers to ‘soundtracks to movies that don’t exist’.  For someone as interested in horror as Douglas appears to be, it’s not hard to imagine that he would apply the cine-fusion concept to the horror genre.
Finally, GuardianZ persisted in citing a website that was created by Joseph Vargo and someone named Christine Filipak solely to defame Edward Douglas and Midnight Syndicate, as well as numerous interviews with Vargo in which he again defames Douglas.   They have no place here.
As the article stands now, Joseph Vargo is credited with more than can be proven (Creative Director?  That’s not on these two CDs).  The bottom line is that people can read the liner notes of these two discontinued CDs and make up their own mind, if they even care.  I care because, as a supporter of Midnight Syndicate, I’m not going to sit idly by while someone I suspect has ulterior motives adds misleading and defamatory information to this site.  - Skinny McGee 22:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response from Skinny McGee 

message: You are so full of it, SkinnyMcGee (proven sockpuppet of Defender99 and two other sleeper agents). You twist things around to suit you and you know it.  Yours were CONFIRMED as well.  My name is being re-checked. I am not Oroboros, and he was permamently blocked. The 2nd check that included me as well as Peacekr was found to be inconclusive. I asked for another to really check it out. I am sure to be able to clear myself of the charges.
Label: Are you saying that Vargo's company did NOT finance and promote the albums? (the job of a label). I see much evidence that they did. There is no evidence that Linfaldia actually did anything. And Entity did nothing until well after the albums were produced. What about all those posters and flyers and advertising done by Monolith Graphics?  A STORE or distributor does not do all that for the products they sell. THAT is the job of the label. All that is listed on the cd is Entity and Monolith as copyrights. Monolith did artwork in addition, so of course they are credited to the art, in addition to the work Vargo did on the actual recording. And, according to Vargo, Monolith allowed Edward Douglas to list his fledgling companies, IN NAME ONLY, even though they didn't actually finance or produce the album. What I think is that Vargo did the work and Douglas took all the credit.
Why is Amazon not encyclopedic? If Amazon is not encyclopedic, then AMG and BMI are not encyclopedic. According to the Legion site, Douglas didn't list Vargo with BMI even though Vargo trusted him to do it, and they are fighting over that now. I think that is an issue between them, but if it was not properly credited, then it brings up the same arguement. Also, why are the albums out of print on the band's website? 
Also, if Vargo did not produce the album as you say, why is he on the copyright form? I have never heard of an album copyright being afforded to a cover artist and guest vocalist. He is also credited with the concept story, liner notes, ect. Is that something that you are saying he did not do?
Who MS is (now) VS. then. You state that MS "is" Goszka and Douglas. That is true of NOW. But the photo from the Born of the Night album shows all three people (Douglas,Goszka,Vargo). It states "produced by Midnight Syndicate" and the photo shows who the line up for MS was at that time, above their names. So, when you say he did not produce the album, what you're saying is that he did not finance, direct the recordings, write arrangements, or any of the typical things that a music producer does. Do you believe that? I don't. I think that because he invested money into the project he got the executive status, but as a member of the group recording the album he is also afforded the same status as the other members shown in the photo in the cd booklet. Therefor, he not only produced the music with Edward and Gavin but he paid for the production and promoted it as well. Edwrad Douglas is just pissed that he went off and started another band, and so he's trying to discredit Vargo in the sneakiest way possible. At least Vargo is upfront about everything. Douglas is totally like "Read between the lines".
Do you refute the earlier interviews, one in print, one in the radio interview that stated:
Goszka: "Joseph's focus and sense of vision were invaluable. I don't know what the cds would have looked like or sounded like without his direction." And, (well, it's hard to transcribe the radio interview), but a few phrases were stated by Douglas that indicate he didn't quite know what to say when asked about the cd concept, and turned that over to Joseph, but then cuts him off again. Later, when specifically asked by the radio DJ how one goes about producing an album like this, the question is directed to Joseph. It would seem that he had a larger role than what you are saying. 
Regarding the albums being the official soundtracks for Halloween Horror Nights, that is NOT in the article right now. You removed it. Correction: It is in there but you added "as well as the other cds," but the later cds were never the "official" soundtracks. HHN may have used songs from the later cds, but only Born of the Night and Realm of Shadows were called "official soundtracks" of HHN.
As to the website you keep calling "defamatory" (just like the other's editing here who I suspect are also your sockpuppets). I agree that it is not flattering, but it shows a great deal of evidence. It indicates to me that Vargo felt he had to defend his work against someone claiming it as their own, so much so that he felt it neccessary to publish everything he did, since the other members were either not crediting him or were saying that they did all his work. I don't think that it is defamatory... to be defamatory it must be false. Is anything there false? No, I don't think so. Like they said, it's the ugly truth.
Also, I only used that site to reference stuff that you were denying when I posted it. I did not actually list it in the refs. Oroboros did that, and again, I am not he. I removed the link butl letf the facts there. You pushed the issue by removing and altering the facts.
PS. City/State on the music block should read "Chardon, Ohio", not "Cleveland, Ohio" (Vargo's company is in Cleveland, but MS is in Chardon). I never even thought of that before, but hmmm, isn't it funny how the band said they got their start in Cleveland. 
Here's my rewrites of what the section should say using text from several other versions and a bit of new writing:
:In October of 1997, Douglas teamed up with gothic fantasy artist Joseph Vargo, who suggested to Edward they create a Halloween cd together. In early 1998, Edward brought in composer Gavin Goszka, formerly a solo-artist in a project called Lore, to join himself and Vargo in the new project. The band decided to focus exclusively on a darker sound aimed at haunted houses and horror fans. Born of the Night was released in September 1998, just in time for the Halloween season. Edward and Gavin wrote and performed the music on the album, while Vargo helped write the musical arrangements, wrote and performed the lyrics, and created the cover art. As executive producer, he financed, published and promoted the album through his company, Monolith Graphics. It was Midnight Syndicate's first critically acclaimed gothic/horror soundtrack and proved to be an instant success, establishing Midnight Syndicate’s trademark sound and providing the eventual path that several of their later gothic-horror albums would take. 
:In March 2000, Realm of Shadows followed suit with the same dark instrumental sound and another gothic setting. Douglas and Goszka wrote all of the music for this album while Vargo wrote and performed the opening narration and theme story. Both albums were official soundtracks for Universal Studios' Halloween Horror Nights, and used in several other major theme parks during Halloween, such as Busch Gardens, Cedar Point and Thorpe Park's Fright Nights event. The heavy metal band King Diamond featured tracks from Born of the Night as opening music for their 2000 US tour. Afterwards, the band announced that Vargo would be working on other projects, while Douglas and Goszka continue to write music as Midnight Syndicate. 
:... Over the course of time Midnight Syndicate has become a standard with Halloween and haunted attraction industries. Edward Douglas' company Entity Productions, which began distributing the CDs on a full-time basis in 2001, now services retailers worldwide, and reports that it is one of the largest distributors of Halloween-themed music. In addition to having the music playing in many major theme parks during Halloween, it has also appeared in mainstream television programs like.... 
As I was rewriting the above paragraphs, I had some time to cool off.  I know my other above statements sound somewhat heated but that's where I was an hour ago, so I'll leave it. BUT I would like to agree on something. As you can see, I took some of your stuff and worked it into my stuff. I think Creative Director really applies to art/writing, and since it already says that Vargo did the art I removed the title. (remember my time off, I have more ref materials now, but I'll give you that one). I left Executive Producer and defined the work so there is no misunderstanding about that. I added the Entity stuff where it was mentioned again along with how all the cds are played in theme parks. It is more appropriate later because it applies to all of the above and NOT just to the Born of the Night album, and especially not ONLY to that album, seeing as how Monolith published that production and then Vargo directed Realm of Shadows "to a lesser degree" as stated by Douglas. Skinny, would you agree that's a fair assessment? I think so. Can we put aside our differences and agree on this part? I hope so.  GuardianZ 12:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Response from GuardianZ

message: I’m just going to ignore the first half of what you wrote as it is amazingly inflammatory and utterly ridiculous, and go right to the rewrite.  I agree that it is a nice start to a compromise version, but I believe you’re still off on some of your facts.  Also, you continue to repeatedly reference the defamatory site created by Vargo.  I wouldn’t believe one word on that site.  If you really want to be objective, you would acknowledge it has no place here.  How you could possibly think an entire website devoted to what an awful person Vargo thinks Douglas is could serve as any sort of valid reference or be at all encyclopedic is beyond me.  As far as this whole Cleveland, Ohio, thing, I think you’re just being difficult.  Cleveland is a major U.S. city, Chardon is not.  Since Chardon is a suburb of Cleveland, it makes sense to say “Cleveland” so people who are not familiar with Chardon have some idea of where the band is based.  However, if you would like to change it, I have absolutely no problem with that.  Perhaps we could say…
: Midnight Syndicate is a musical group that has been working mainly in the genre of gothic horror music since 1998.  A 1997 self-titled release covered multiple mainstream genres.  The band is based out of Chardon, Ohio, a suburb of Cleveland.  Their music is commonly used to provide atmosphere during the Halloween season, in Haunted attractions and in the Role-playing game industry.
I do think we should leave Cleveland in the artist block, though, because as I said before, people don’t know where Chardon is.
You seem to be hung up on publishing. The publisher as stated on the CDs (designed by Monolith Graphics) is Linfaldia Records, a division of Midnight Syndicate’s parent company, Entity Productions, Inc.  You continue to contend that Vargo wrote the musical arrangements.  There is no proof of that.  On “Born of the Night” it says “music written and performed by Edward Douglas and Gavin Goszka.” On “Realm of Shadows” it says “all music written and produced by Midnight Syndicate.”  It follows with “Midnight Syndicate is Edward Douglas and Gavin Goszka.”   Just because Vargo says something six years later on his defamatory website doesn’t make it so.   
The only credits that should matter are those that appear on the CDs because obviously those were agreed upon by the two parties at the time of printing.
Here is my edit of your version …
:In 1998, Edward Douglas teamed up with gothic fantasy artist Joseph Vargo, to create an exclusively gothic/horror-themed Midnight Syndicate disc called Born of the Night.  Douglas later brought in composer Gavin Goszka, formerly a solo-artist in a project called Lore.  The goal of the disc was to focus on a dark sound aimed at fans of gothic music, the horror genre, and haunted attractions.  Born of the Night was released in September 1998, just in time for the Halloween season.  Douglas and Goszka wrote and performed all of the music on the album, while Vargo served as Executive Producer, wrote and performed voiceovers, and designed the cover art.  The release was a cooperative effort between Douglas’ Entity Productions and Vargo’s Monolith Graphics.  The disc was a success and helped establish Midnight Syndicate’s trademark sound. 
:In March 2000, Realm of Shadows followed suit with the same dark instrumental sound in a different gothic setting.  Douglas and Goszka again wrote and produced all of the music for the album, while Vargo contributed an opening narration and artwork.  As with future Midnight Syndicate releases, both albums served as official soundtracks for Universal Studios' Halloween Horror Nights, and were used in several other major theme parks during Halloween, such as Busch Gardens, Cedar Point and Thorpe Park's Fright Nights event.  The heavy metal band King Diamond featured tracks from Born of the Night as opening music for their 2001 US tour. Midnight Syndicate and Joseph Vargo parted ways after Realm of Shadows.
:... Over the course of time Midnight Syndicate has become the standard in the Halloween and haunted attraction industries.  Edward Douglas' company, Entity Productions, Inc., and it’s partners distribute Midnight Syndicate’s music to thousands of retailers worldwide, and reports that they are one of the largest distributors of Halloween-themed music.  In addition to being featured in independent haunted attractions and major theme parks during Halloween, it has also appeared in mainstream television programs like.... 
I hope that we can agree on something soon.  I’m getting tired of rehashing the same things over and over again. - Skinny McGee 02:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply from Skinny McGee

message: When you say "cooperative" effort, what do you mean by that. I gather that Vargo produced Born of the Night and Entity later distributed. Also, I think Vargo deserves a little more "weight" in the crediting dept for concept and direction (especially given that Douglas is taking credit for the concept lately, and that Vargo had other Born of the night credits beforehand, plus the fact that all the songs are named for his paintings). I do believe his site, moreso now than ever, and we will leave it at that, so give the guy the credit he's due. It doesn't belittle the band at all, or it wouldn't if the band wasn't trying to take that credit away. The definition of a music producer is what Vargo did. I think he called it creative direction, but it amounts to the same thing: overseeing the entire production, giving direction to the music, not just paying for it.  Also, since he did pay for the initial runs, he published it as well. Entity distributed, but did not produce or publish.  And, the part about "first critically acclaimed and establishing MS trademark sound," that was in several interviews and in Douglas' words and was here before. Let's not start a new dispute over that. Here's what I think it should read...
:In 1998, Edward Douglas teamed up with gothic fantasy artist Joseph Vargo to create an exclusively gothic/horror-themed album called Born of the Night,  based on Vargo's gothic artwork and story concepts. Composer Gavin Goszka, formerly a solo-artist in a project called Lore, also joined Douglas and Vargo in creating a darker sound aimed at fans of gothic music, the horror genre, and haunted attractions. Douglas and Goszka wrote and performed music on the album, while Vargo served as executive producer and creative director, wrote and performed the vocals and narrations, and designed the cover art and packaging. The release was published by Vargo's Monolith Graphics and distributed through Douglas' Entity Productions. The album was Midnight Syndicate's first critically acclaimed gothic/horror soundtrack and proved to be an instant success, establishing Midnight Syndicate's trademark sound."
For Realm of Shadows, when you state that D and G "again produced" all the music and reduce Vargo to "contributing" a narration, that is not balancing the weight, and since he also payed for part of the production and directed it "to a lesser degree" (per Douglas) it is not correct to make that statement.  Also, like I said, the latter part already mentions the later albums being used in haunted houses, it is disruptive, petty and untrue to mention it beforehand. The later albums were not "official" and it was a pretty big deal back then, and was part of the success. Give the albums the credit they are due and stop belittling it by dragging in other stuff. I also note how you keep moving Douglas' name to the front of sentences. It gets redundant and is petty. Finally, in the parting way sentence, you do the same. It was "announced" exactly that way, so I think it is the best way to state it without saying one or the other left. There's no shame in a guy doing "other projects" and no one will see it that way. Here...
:In March 2000, Realm of Shadows followed suit with the same dark instrumental sound in a different gothic setting. Douglas and Goszka again wrote and performed all of the music for the album, while Vargo wrote and performed the opening narration and theme story and created the artwork.  Both albums served as official soundtracks for Universal Studios' Halloween Horror Nights, and were used in several other major theme parks during Halloween, such as Busch Gardens, Cedar Point and Thorpe Park's Fright Nights event. The heavy metal band King Diamond featured tracks from Born of the Night as opening music for their 2001 US tour. Afterwards, the band announced that Vargo would be working on other projects, while Douglas and Goszka continue to write music as Midnight Syndicate. 
Thanks. Also, what was the "huge" success on MP3. I still want to know. GuardianZ 10:48, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply2 from GuardianZ

message: I will reiterate that I believe we should use the credits as they appeared in the CD booklet because they are what all parties agreed to at the time.  I give Vargo full credit following that guideline.  
The publisher is not determined by who pays to press the CDs.  That indicates who the Executive Producer is – and we already know that was Vargo.  "Born of the Night" appears to be a cooperative effort between Monolith Graphics and Entity Productions/Linfaldia Records as both logos are on the CD, as you continue to point out. 
Other than from Vargo’s defamatory site or his own publication, I’m wondering if there is proof of the following:
* Vargo paid for part of the production of “Realm of Shadows”
* Vargo directed “Realm of Shadows” to a lesser degree
* Both “Born of the Night” and “Realm of Shadows” were “official soundtracks” for Universal Studios’ Halloween Horror Nights, but the future albums weren’t.
*The band announcing that Vargo would be working on other projects after “Realm of Shadows”, while Douglas and Goszka would continue as Midnight Syndicate.  It clearly states in the CD booklet, “Midnight Syndicate is Edward Douglas and Gavin Goszka.“  Vargo was not a member of the band, so why would they announce that he was leaving something he wasn’t even a part of?   (Why can’t we just say parted ways?  There’s no implication in either direction)
Don’t get your point about haunted houses – don’t see anything redundant.
I didn’t notice I was moving Douglas’ name to the beginning of sentences, if I even was, but he was there before Vargo and after Vargo and he’s certainly the driving force behind the band’s success.
Finally, regarding Midnight Syndicate's success on MP3.com....  In the All Music Guide, Mario Mesquita Borges wrote the Midnight Syndicate biography.  He wrote that “Gates of Delirium” was a “huge success on MP3.com, where it held six spots in their Top 20 positions during Halloween.” - Skinny McGee 04:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Response from Skinny McGee

message: I will reiterate that I believe we should use the credits as they appeared in the CD booklet because they are what all parties agreed to at the time (which is the most relevant for any purpose).  The current version of the article gives Vargo FULL credit following that guideline. How people are credited for their work in the entertainment industry is NOT arbitrary and it’s taken very seriously. Skinny_McGee
*I am sure they did take it seriously, BUT you forget that Douglas has recently made several statements to the Press trying to change the meaning of those 1998 credits and has tried to discredit Vargo by doing so. Up until Vargo started a new band in 2003, there was no misunderstanding as to what Vargo's role and credits were in 1998-2000. It was Edward Douglas who messed all that up. GuardianZ
The “Born of the Night” credits read:
:All Music Written and Performed by Edward Douglas and Gavin Goszka
:Executive Producer Joseph Vargo
:Music PRODUCED by MIDNIGHT SYNDICATE Skinny_McGee
*The band photo shows Vargo and Douglas and Goszka. THEN it says Produced by MS.  It shows all three people as being Midnight Syndicate, and all the interviews of the time also include Vargo. Therefore Vargo is as much a producer of the music, plus he oversaw the direction as stated by Edward Douglas, and as evidenced from his role of Executive Producer. GuardianZ
It does NOT say “Music Produced by Joseph Vargo.”Skinny_McGee
* That role is included in the role of the Executive Producer, and it is also defined that way by Wiki and be many music books. Monolith Graphics is listed as copyright owner on the booklet, plus Vargo has the copyright forms to prove it. Don't try to change the meaning of that now after what Douglas has done to discredit the guy. GuardianZ
On “Realm of Shadows” the credits are even more specific
:Music PRODUCED by MIDNIGHT SYNDICATE
:MIDNIGHT SYNDICATE is Edward Douglas and Gavin Goszka
Vargo isn’t even mentioned in the credits although it is clear he handled the packaging.   
There is no debate as to the label for “Realm of Shadows.”  There’s NO mention of Monolith Graphics (except in reference to the artwork). Skinny_McGee
*Vargo IS listed in the credits for the first track. Vargo IS credied by Edward Douglas as directing both CDs in the interviews I mentioned above, which you made me dig up again. Stop trying to backtrack. I proved my edits and now you want to change even that. Plus, I only made mention that he produced Born of the Night and directed Realm of Shadows, as stated in the interviews. Do not try to twist what I cited.  GuardianZ
The ONLY ambiguity, the only thing NOT spelled out in the credits is who was the label of “Born of the Night.” Why can’t we say “the release was a cooperative effort between Douglas’ Entity Productions and Vargo’s Monolith Graphics”?  Why do you have to give all the credit to Monolith Graphics?  Both of their logos are side by side on the back.   Are you saying that was by accident?  Not likely. Skinny_McGee
* What I said was that it IS a cooperative effort, but I specified what each company did within that effort. Don't try to twist my words. Monolith published and distributed, and Entity also distributed. A distributor is NOT a publisher. Every single publishing house I ever heard of takes on the burden of production costs. Linfaldia did NOT pay any production costs and therefore did not publish, but was granted the right to be included in the credits by Vargo only because it was Edward's company. Entity, the parent company of Linfaldia did NOT pay for the production and did not publish either, they ONLY distributed the CDs. Don't try to make it seem to be more than what it was. You are doing exactly what Edward Douglas is doing, making an attempt to alter the facts to suit him. GuardianZ
The fact is, there is nothing wrong with the current version of this article.   There is nothing inaccurate about it. - Skinny McGee 03:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dionyseus did not blank the request.  It looks to me like the request was moved to "Fulfilled/Denied Requests"  by VoABot.  And I was thanking Dionyseus for explaining how I can add a ref like the one I just did. I would appreciate it if you could stop lying.  Perhaps if you were more honest we would be able to resolve our differences. - Skinny McGee 17:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I did not blank the request, this is yet another example of User:GuardianZ twisting the facts.  Dionyseus 22:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Credits as listed in CD Booklets

message: User:Dionyseus blanked this request for reverting to a correct version. (see. My request was blanked here ) then Dionyseus was "thanked" by Skinny McGee . Dionyseus is the one trying to assist User:Skinny_McGee in making deceptive edits. Dionyseus has not contributed a single line of text to the article and yet he is trying to evade the issue and now blanked out my request to revert to a correct version. All of my edits were cited and they were removed by Skinny or Dionyseus or Skinny's other sockpuppets.
The main differences are discussed below and evidenced by my citations of the version here .
Both Dionyseus and Skinny McGee have cited nothing that is verifiable and furthermore have acted together to subvert my repeated requests for Admin assitance. Dionyseus has harassed my user page and was told to stop placing sock templates upon it, as it was determined I was NOT abusing Wiki. Meanwhile he allows Skinny McGee to revert multiple times and never once warned him to stop. Skinny McGee was found to have more than one sockpuppet. I was found to have but one, which was a fluke, and I was not banned as Dionyseus states but the other user was. Skinny McGee was not banned either but has 3 other socks and one User:Defender99 did revert and change my edits on behalf of Skinny, who he claims is his/her wife/husband.
This needs attention before Dionyseus can blank the request yet again.  GuardianZ 16:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dionyseus did not blank the request.  It looks to me like the request was moved to "Fulfilled/Denied Requests"  by VoABot.  And I was thanking Dionyseus for explaining how I can add a ref like the one I just did. I would appreciate it if you could stop lying.  Perhaps if you were more honest we would be able to resolve our differences. - Skinny McGee 17:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I did not blank the request, this is yet another example of User:GuardianZ twisting the facts.  Dionyseus 22:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: {{La|Midnight_Syndicate}}