Talk:Bábism

message: Having read the Kitab-i-Iqan carefully, I am surprised to read in the article, "...though in the Kitáb-i-Íqán, one of the most important polemical works of the Bábísm, and now the Bahá'ís, composed in 1858-1859, ...he still implicitly recognized the supremacy of Subh-i Azal." In the Iqan, Baha'u'llah is generally understood to be proving the claim of the Bab and hinting of his own station. So where does the italicized interpretation come from? --Occamy 20:30, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Kitab-i-Iqan

message: First off - the figure 20,000 is, in my experience, the number given to all those, Babis and Baha'is who have been martyred since 1844. It is misleading to compare this with "conservative" figures that are only relevant between 1844 and 1850. Please let me know if I'm mistaken, but I'm pretty certain I'm not. -- Tomhab 22:57, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading figures 

message: #Support as stated above -- Tomhab 22:57, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Support 

message: Is there only one copy of the journal written by Hâjji Mirza Jâni Kashani? I presume we're talking about the version included in the Nuqtat al-Kaf? Did anyone here add that line or know anything about it? Last I heard the Nuqtat al-Kaf has been widely produced as part of EG Brown's notes -- Tomhab 20:04, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mirza Jani journal 

message: I suggest moving the title of this article, but I admit I'm not sure what would be the best. I think "Bábí movement" would be the best, or "Bábí Faith", but "Bábís" just isn't a good title. Cuñado  - Talk 00:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What about Babism -- Jeff3000 03:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with Jeff3000. MARussellPESE 03:39, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This was orphaned, I agree and I'll move the title to Bábism. -- Cuñado  - Talk 18:56, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move 

message: Maceoin is hardly a secondary source. If he states that secondary sources indicate only a small number of Babis killed, then those sources should be quoted and not him. Also, he states that Baha'i sources agree with the lower number, which they don't. I removed some of his opinions. Cuñado  - Talk 18:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think MacEoin's statements need to be in the article.  He was an academic that did a lot of work on Babism and Shakiism and based on his academic work which he's published he's believes that there is around 2000 to 3000 Babis killed. He's done the research himself, looking over many many sources and has added up the numbers of people killed and come up with the number; it is not a number that is based on any other work but by his historical analyses (such as newspapers, etc).  This of course is lower than what Baha'is believe based on Abdu'l-Baha's statements (which Baha'is use and state that MacEoin's estimates are too low because they don't include the numerous persecutions that were not accounted for), but MacEoin's statement is an academic source, and should be in the article for NPOV. I will be reinserting it.-- Jeff3000 18:50, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be clear what he was doing then. If someone tried to count how many blacks were lynched in the US over the last 4 centuries, and their sources were limited to reading newspaper articles, they would be a few hundred thousand off. Cuñado  - Talk 19:00, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with both of y'all's sentiments here. MacEoin's assertion is quite valid but should have a specific citation though. Can you pick that up, Jeff? Cuñado's got a quite valid point. The Iranian hinterland was a very, very, bloody place to be at the time. Much less flashy that Ft. Shaykh Tabarsi, but a lot easier to get dragged out of your house. The comparison to lynching is apt. And there were precious few outsiders who kept anything remotely like records. The Baha'i numbers are probably inflated with double counts and such, but I'll bet they are better than anything that anybody else has — and much better than MacEoin's. The Baha'i numbers are exaggerated by an order of magnitude? I doubt it. MARussellPESE 22:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I know this is an old discussion, but I have a bit of experience with this. Unlike most contemporary Baha'i commentators who weigh on in the "numbers of martyrs" debate, MacEoin actually read all available original sources, in the original languages. When I was researching my master's thesis on Babi/Shii martyrdom I read all available English- and French-language ones and looked at, though couldn't fully read, some of the Arabic/Persian primary sources. My own research, while only a fraction of MacEoin's, confirmed MacEoin's numbers. It is also instructive to read how and why the numbers became inflated ten-fold, and these reasons are simple and obvious matters of hagiography and story-telling, reasons which the very pro-Baha'i David Piff affirms in his magnum opus Baha'i Lore. That is, MacEoin is not claiming any devious intent in Baha'i's inflating the numbers of martyrs, but rather it is a benign phenomenon in history and a community's self-definition. I am in no way defending MacEoin's later anti-Baha'i stance, but I can somewhat defend his statistics. Jonah Winters (talk) 15:43, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maceoin 

message: I understand that a page on a specific religion or sect should contain all the basic tenets of its doctrine. I find that this page, being about a movement and not about a person, contains a lot of biographical and historical data but very few, if any, explanations about the actual contents of Bábism as a distinct religious path. I suggest that the article needs to be reorganized and expanded in that area in order to improve it. --Jdemarcos 13:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point.  I don't have access to books (such as MacEoin's The sources for early Babi doctrine and history : a survey or Amanat's Resurection and Renewall) that would be verifiable sources.  Regardless, I'll try to find some on verifiable information on the web, and add some stuff. -- Jeff3000 00:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I've added some beliefs.  I've found some of Amanat's and MacEoin's essays on the web, in addition to Browne and Esslemeont, and used them as references. -- Jeff3000 03:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lot of history but lacking doctrinal content 

message: That's the title. Zazaban 23:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm indifferent, but I would prefer Bábism, since it's the most common reference in academics (in my experience). Cuñado  - Talk 07:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Babism is the most common usage, and should stay. -- Jeff3000 15:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

text: In English, the "Baha'i Faith" is orders of magnitude more common than "Baha'ism", (in may not be that way in other languages) not to mention that "Baha'ism" is commonly used in a belittling way by attackers of the Baha'i Faith.  On the other hand, Babism is much more common than Babi Faith. And note that even though the Czech government would like people to call what is most commonly known as the Czech Republic, Czechia, the article is still titled the Czech Republic since that is the most common usage. -- Jeff3000 18:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Me again, weighing in on an old discussion. I can confirm, from my study of Arabic and linguistics in grad school, that "Babism" (no accent) would be more correct, because it's an English word, whereas "Bábí" is not. Think for example of the difference between the accented word "Qur'án", from Arabic, vs. the non-accented word "Quranic", from English. Jonah Winters (talk) 15:47, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move to Babi Faith. 

message: I tend to disagree with the overall characterization of the struggles involving Babis as being "revolts." In once sense, the Revelation of the Bab was a revolution... That is in the spiritual sense. However, I think it's wrong to imply that the Babis were somehow continuously trying to cause revolt and insurrection. The view presented in Nabil, God Passes By, and other sources, is that the struggles were defensive actions. This is illustrated by the behavior of the Babis before and during the battle at the shrine of Shaykh Tabarsi. On nearing Barfarush, the mob incited by the chief religious leader, attacked the approaching Babis. Mulla Husayn ordered nobody to retaliate. It was not until they had been attacked three times that he charged into the mob and killed the last assailant. Once again, when the Babis were in the caravanserai at Barfarush, Mulla Husayn ordered the call to prayer. Three Babis in turn attemped the recitation of the adhan but were each killed. Only after the third death did Husayn order the gates to be opened and the mob attacked. I believe the overall wording and tone of the section needs to be altered to reflect this fact. -- Parsa 05:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While I agree with you, there are academic viewpoints that disagree with your analysis, and the Baha'i viewpoints; main among them are Denis MacEoin's work.  As I mentioned in the Talk:Baha'i Faith, articles must use a neutral point of view, and secondary works are preferred to primary reports such as the Dawnbreakers. -- Jeff3000 06:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry but it doesn't work that way.  Unfortunately, optics are just as important as facts, and using only Baha'i sources does not provide the right optics, especially when there are qualified historians who are not polemic who give the opposite viewpoint.  Both viewpoints must be given, and qualified with "Baha'i sources state ..." and "Denis MacEoin says ...".  Look over the countless Christian and Jewish articles where there has been debates over how the religion sees itself and historians see it. -- Jeff3000 14:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uprisings and Massacres section 

message: When the title of this article was changed to Bábism in March, the opening description was not changed to match. The first sentence does not define Bábism as the religion of the Báb, but begins by talking about Bábis. The opening should be similar to that on the Bahá'í Faith:
The Bahá'í Faith is a religion founded by Bahá'u'lláh in 19th century Persia. Bahá'ís number around 6 million in more than 200 countries around the world.[1][2]
Reference to the Báb should be in the first paragraph, and an explanation that adherents of the religion are called Bábis should follow later. -- Parsa 18:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bábism and Bábis 

message: Hi guys, I am much impressed by this article - but I have to point out a few things as a Bahá'í - The correct way to describe the religion brought by The Báb is - The Bábi Faith. The correct way to describe the revelation of Baha'u'llah and the religion followed by over 7 millions Bahá'ís worldwide is The Bahá'í Faith - Not Babism, Not Bahaism - that is just plain wrong and it's really annoying when others add the -ism on the end! As Bahá'i we believe in The Báb as a Messenger of God in His own right as well as the forerunner of Bahá'u'lláh - The Báb is a major part of Bahá'i history!!
Is Christianity called Christanism or Islam called Islamism? I feel aggrieved by this, even though it is in reality just a word - but  because I feel its a way people use to put down an expression of Faith they either don't understand, have not adequaltely researched or simply oppose. 
Please get it right! 
Yours, 
Fleur Fleurba 23:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fleurba, some of the main policies of Wikipedia is neutral point of view, verifiability and no original research.  As part of these policies, Wikipedia uses terms that are used in the majority of reliable sources, and not what we believe as individuals or spokesmen.  The reliable sources are usually secondary sources that have published in mediums which have editorial oversight.  For the religion of the Bab, most sources call it Babism, and the Wikipedia Manual of style on titles means that the most used term has to be used.  Thus the term has to stay.  As for the Baha'i Faith versus Bahaism the term Baha'i Faith is used much more that Baha'ism and that is why the title of that article is Baha'i Faith.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 00:34, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title of this page 

message: the word Bab simply means "door", not gate. Bawwabah is the Arabic word for gate. (67.171.224.169 (talk) 00:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Encyclopedia Iranica article on the Bab states that it is translated gate, not door.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 04:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Translation of Bab

message: There's a proposal on Talk:Bahá'í/Bábí split to rename that article and your views are requested on that page. Thanks! AndrewRT(Talk) 20:29, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Comment - Bahá'í/Bábí split 

message: Are there still any followers of babism? the article does not make that clear I'd like to know! If you have figures plz provide them.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.230.23.155 (talk) 11:35, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The Babis either followed Baha'u'llah and became Baha'is, or supported Subh-i-Azal, and were thus then known as Azalis.  In the "Succession" section it notes that there is probably no more than 1000 Azalis at this point.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 14:15, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Numbers of babists? 

message: The primary available reference appears to be 
* though I'm missing some of the details of the ref (issn, doi of Religion journal??) 
There seems to be a 
* though I've also seen it referenced as  
* but I've not see the actual article(s) available anywhere. Smkolins (talk) 04:06, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  of Uprisings and Massacres section and Maceoin input 

message: "A number of Babis appear to have traveled to Karbalāʾ with this hope and, following instructions in the Qayyūm al-asmāʾ, to have purchased arms in readiness for the jehād that would follow the Bāb’s appearance and the advent of the imam. In the end, the Bāb failed to reach Karbalāʾ as promised, returning instead to Shiraz via Būšehr in the summer of 1261/1845. His arrest en route to his home town by agents of the governor of Shiraz considerably restricted his freedom of action and prevented even a late arrival in Iraq. As a result, a number of the newly-converted abandoned their allegiance, leaving only a small core of believers, who were forced to begin the work of proselytization once more (al-Qatīl b. al-Karbalāʾī, letter in Māzandarānī, Ẓohūr al-ḥaqq III, p. 503)."--Kazemita1 (talk) 17:40, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Perhaps to be added 

message: As for Manifestion there are many manifestions in the same time, the the greater atribute of God is presented in Shia most authentic Hadith Book al Kafi as the 14 Imams specialy the five in other books for that the Bayani Azali claim about that there is only one manifestion of god is false Bab has claimed himself as the return of the 12th Imam al Hujjah (The proof) in Persian Bayan the Proof returned as The point of Bayan (Bab) which is the same as the point of Furqan (Imam Mahdi) the first two to believe in the call of Qaim are Muhammad and Ali so Muhammad has manifested as Bushr'ui the first to believe and Ali as the second to believe, the Hadith books also say that Imam Hussein will return after Imam Mahdi and Hussein will put The 12th Imam in the grave after his death and will build his shrine and in Shia Hadith there is a comprision between Imam Hussein and Jesus the Christ both were sons of two Ladies of worlds both were the sons of virgins and both were born by 6 months and for Krishna He is Buddha himself and Krishna in some Non Hindu (But Jain) sources died thirsty just like Imam Hussein so for that Bahaullah is the return of these figures in the Babism who has fullfilled their prophecy and his manifestion was greater than of Bab according to Bahais because He was one return of one of Ahlul Kisa' but His role in Islamic Prophecies was just similar to John the baptist for Jews and Bab's role was the one who has peacefuly fullfilled the Islamic Prophecies like Jesus for Jews but Bab's role in the new religion was similar to John the baptist and Bahaullah's role was similar to Jesus the Christ. 94.252.145.1 (talk) 08:58, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manifestion of God