Talk:Turkey/Archive 2

message: I'm not really involved with editing or reviewing this article, but when I got here there was simply a picture of a mutilated body in a ditch and the words "Turkey is Evil" were written under it. I restored the page to it's last "real" edit. It's sad that people resort to such tactics to make a point, justified or not. Please, don't let your feuds boil over to such a blatant use of vandalism. The credibility of the entire community suffers when someone, whether a wiki user or not, links to a page and finds something as useless as what I found. SimonSayz 02:20, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalsim

message: "Turkey has a vibrant free press ..." says the Media section, but Reporters Without Borders has consistently disagreed since 2002.  I don't know enough about Turkey's situation to add to the article, just thought I'd bring it up. Kfor 19:03, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Free Press in Turkey

message: The flag used is wrong (turkeys flag is not pacman eating 3 stars), i would change it myself but im a noob
"The Republic of Turkey is a wonderfull place turkish people are very kind, 
Excuse me?! Someone get this cleared away as this is just downright disgusting and offensive! Common people, is this really necessary?
Alas, this sort of nonsense is common.  Usually it is reverted quite quickly -- indeed, you can revert it yourself as soon as you notice it. --Macrakis 18:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: The most recent change to the article alters the numbers for Turkey's exports and imports in the infobox:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Turkey&curid=354097&diff=24770426&oldid=24712846
I could not find a source for these numbers or an explanation for the change. Does anyone have a pointer to the estimated numbers for 2005 total exports and imports for Turkey? --Zippy 01:54, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Exports and Imports

message: I think a lot more content can be added to this, perhaps more on the decline of the ottoman empire (the balkan uprisings, joining Germany in WW1 etc) and there should definitely be more on the role Ataturk played in war of independence i.e. moving power to Ankara, the struggle against the invaders and way in which this gave them the upper hand over the Treaty of Sevres. There is more on its demography than its great history. 
There should also be mention of its political setup as a multi party democracy, also inclide short profiles of its current leaders?
*Hmm.. History of Turkey may have that and may be a more aproporate place o put info. Information regarding the serves has been declared POV I am inclied to not add material.--Cool Cat My Talk 07:40, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sparse? 

message: Cleaned up beginning a bit, changed timeline to pre republic and post republic. Added info on Ataturk and independece as well as disintegration of Ottoman empire leading to WW1. Removed genocide sentence, doesnt fit in, feels like it was just stuck on to make a point. The article still feels sporadic, perhaps when i have time i will contribute more to it. If anyone wants to revert it to an older version please explain why first Thank you.--62.255.64.9 00:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: First you should admit that armenian did genocide to turks.
Man, you have no idea about Turkey.
The Armenians living in Turkey say they're proud of beeing Turks and living in Turkey and there never was such a "genocide". 84.190.74.73 13:30, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added more info 

message: It seems some people are set on including genocide into this article, in the hope of keeping this article free of political views and accusations, i propose we integrate a section entitled "Foreign policy and disputes" and can therefore include any disputes under that. This section can include the Cyprus conflict, Armenina conflict, Iraqi concerns etc. --E.A 12:21, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A very poor proposal indeed. The genocide was massmurder of own population, albeit an ethnic minority. to put this solely into a "foreign policy section is a bad idea. I would though agree that we examine in teh foreign policy section how teh genocide has affected Turkey's standing in the world. Its denial is clearly one of the major influences on Europeans' hesitancy to allow Turkey to join the EU. I would like to warn you . You have absolutely no right to remove important information simply because it is disputed and because you do not like it, unless you have a clear community consensus. This consensus is not there and  has never been there. Refdoc 13:52, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: I think the personal political mission here is with you. The article had been stable for nearly six months until you came to delete the matter again. I have only expanded along the same lines as you expanded teh pre-Republican history. Nothing I wrote is new. I am not sure why a Black person should not mention these crimes, sounds quite fair to me, certainly when a history of teh same period is discussed. Refdoc 14:54, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Of course thats a neutral statement. Armenian Genocide is disputed. It could ba a fact or fiction. - Refer to NPOV article. --Cool Cat My Talk 22:04, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A proposal 

message: i'd like people to add a lot more to this article, especially on culture, politics and even more history. I look at the articles of other states and see great explanatations of their history, If its one thing Turkey has, its great History. Its up to you people really. --E.A 00:29, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added section on sport 

message: I won't take part in discussing with Coolcat, it is fruitless. I like your idea. The genocide can be considered as a dispute between Turkey and the West(not to be confounded with dispute among Western historians, which is not the cases). It is OK by me. If you want to get a vote about adding a new section and calling it what you've said, I'de vote yes. Fadix 01:17, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  To E.A 

message: Rovoam has gone beyond the pale and is reverting simply to make some kind of point .  Because he is virtually unblockable and rather obsessive, I have protected this article and quite a few others. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 18:12, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Unprotected. Protected for long enough. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:10, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Protected

message: Can a sysop fix "missle crisis" to "missile crisis" in the article, please? Thanks in advance! Sam Hocevar 09:00, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 11:24, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Spelling fix

message: I suggest we add the following templates to the article;
Template:Mediterranean, Template:Middle East and Template:Southwest Asia.
--Gramaic 07:04, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Templates 

message: where is the Coat of Arms of Turkey?
There are no official coat of arms for Turkey. For use in embassies, sort of coat of arms basicly in form of shield in red with crescent /star do exist. Also for presidential flag, there is the sun & rays symbol with 16 stars surrounding, which represent 16 Turkish states established during the history. But none of these are actually considered as coat of arms in Western style for the country. Jensboot 21:17, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There are coat of arms of various govermental bodies but no coat of arms of the nation itself. --Cool Cat My Talk 11:50, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Turkey Coat of Arms]] 

message: Is there a special word for the European part of Turkey (i.e.. Turkey minus Anatolia)? Everton 14:02, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geography 

message: Bush made some quote about finishing the war on Iraq and starting on some other countries, and Turkey was one of the ones he made.  What involvements does Turkey have that makes the US upset?
Heh, US is always upset about s.things, isn't she? But specifically you may check the 2003 invasion of Iraq for the rejection of the usage of turkish bases for the invasion. But speculating such an action would be too surreal since Turkey is a NATO member and EU member candidate. barfly 04:58, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Bush and Iraq

message: ASALA/Chronology
Oh I am sorry, there was a word that "debated" about Armenian Genocide,in text of the Turkey's History article , so there is no need to delete it from there :-). -- aozan
:I moved the chronology to a different page. I think it should be converted to a timeline format and introduced to ASALA. I would also want to see a source for that. --Cool Cat My Talk 11:48, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian Terrorism - A Chronological Rundown 

message: If anyone here lives in Turkey and knows something about Edip Yuksel, I would like to hear about it. He has crashed into Wikipedia aggressively promoting himself and his tiny Muslim sect, the Qur'an Alone Muslims, and after a long VfD battle, now has his own page. At the moment it's a fulsome tribute to him, saying that he's a best-selling author in Turkey. Is he really? Is he notable in Turkey? Zora 11:59, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: He is notable mainly due to two (or more) apearances on a known discussion program on TV, but i dont think he is a best-seller, and he does not have a noticable follower base. So as you rightly realized, he is preomoting himself by many means, and in my opinion his effect on  people is not more than being known.Fethi 19:46, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edip Yuksel 

message: I see that certain elements in Wikipedia have magically removed any mention of the Armenian Genocide/Ethnic cleansing, and instead there are four lines about Armenian terrorism. I personally find this to be horrible POV and completely undefensible. Before I start adding info about the Armenian genocide/etnic cleansing I'd like to hear why this is considered NPOV.--Wiglaf 09:46, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Blatant POV

message: In spite of the continuous effort of Turkey (since it became a republic) to cover up the massacres of the minorities in the early 20th century, those things cannot be forgotten by anyone. I might be Greek but I have read several objective (American etc) historical analysis so as not to believe the Turkish propaganda. Therefore, I suggest that not only should there be a detailed description of the Armenian but also of the Greek genocide. This would help the reader have several things of the past of Turks in his mind. Moreover this organized effort to exterminate the Christian civilisations from Asia Minor was procceeded by both the Ottoman government from about the 1913 as well as Mustafa Kemal who is said to have settled the modern Turkish state. Petros The Greek 09:39, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Mixing the Armenian cases with a Greek one isen't the best thing to do. While the Armenian genocide is generally agreed in the Western literature, crimes against the Greeks are more than often not called genocide. To respect NPOV policy here in Wikipedia, it would be wrong to present an Armenian genocide, alongisde a Greek genocide, as equally recognized. Furthermore, this is Turkey entry, and I don't think it would be the right thing to do to present paragraphs on minority abuses prior to the republic. Fadix 16:26, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The only place for the edits you suggested are a Greek propoganda website, not here. --E.A 20:54, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

text:  Aah, "Greek Genocide". That's a first. What will come next? "Kurdish Genocide", "Laz Genocide", "Zaza Massacre", "Black Sunday of Assyrians of Iskenderun"...By the way, "I might be Greek but I have read several objective (American etc) historical analysis so as not to believe the Turkish propaganda." What makes you think that what you had read is objective? A Turkish analysis can never be objective? Might it be your constant fear and hatred of Turks? I am only glad you are the minority (in the statistical sense of the word, as in the opposite of "majority"). Regards, filo. mu5ti/talk 22:09, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
My friend mu5ti/talk, i am obliged to inform you that there is no hatred whatsoever for Turks as far as I, personally, am concerned. A Turkish analysis can, of course, be objective if it is based on real fact and is not influenced by the (Turkish) state. The Hellenic genocide is an undeniable historical series of events (just like the Armenian one). Denyind stubbornly the historical events and altering them in fear of what happens if the world learns the truth is not going to be beneficial. I suggest in depth search of the events from really objective points of view. 
Petros The Greek 00:10, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Yeah man, only you and some "Hellenic" ultra-natiionalist think like this. The Turkish Army or state never killed christians or Greeks. But look at Izmir. There never was a Greek majority but a Turkish. As your Army entered the borders of Turkey they started killing Turks. And the Greeks living in Turkey thought "Man, what we did wasn't good. What if the Turkish Army does the same things to us?". So they flied. And other minorities did the same. But there are a lot of Greeks living in Turkey and they get very angry, if you tell them the things you wrote here. They say they're prude of living in Turkey and so on. But let us look at West Trace. There's a big, really big Turkish minority which is getting kept down. And no one says a shit. You know why? Because no one cares! They are just Turks you know, you can do what ever you want with them. And it is cool to be anti-turkish, you know. 13:51, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Come on man, go home. This was a WAR! Do you know what this is? People are killed in a WAR and these people might be innocent. But no one planed to killed this people nor where there any genocides. You're just dreaming if you say that most of the inhabitants of this cities were Greeks, then this is only a lie. Where are your sources? Where do you get these informations? For sure, we killed Christians, tz. You Greeks have your own Church in Turkey, but the Turks in Greece have no rights, they can't even tell themselves Turks. They have to say "muslimazed Hellens". And no one cares! Come on, no one would beliefe this, not even the ultra-nationalists in Greece. Show me some sources! Tz, Greek genocide. What comes next? German genocide, Kurdish genocide, French genocide, American genocide, English genocide. Man, the Turks killed everyone! They wanted to kill the whole world! Aquilion13:51, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian-Hellenic Genocide 

message: There is already a link to the Armenian genocide article, 2 infact. There is enough explanation there, this article is not the page for words like rape and slavery, especially when attrocities happened on both sides. This article has enough on the armenian allegations as it is. Let people follow the link if they want more. --E.A 12:51, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, but why do you need to have the Turkish view on there, when it's also on the Armenian page? If there's no special reason, then it's also acceptable to have the Armenian link in. John Smith's 12:55, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The way i see it, i placed a link to the armenian POV and a link to the Turkish POV. That is enough. It would be nice if people had more to contribute to this article other than massacres which happened 90 years ago. --E.A 13:06, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't see your link to the Armenian POV - the Armenian massacre page is currently under dispute. Also a few small changes. Since was Lebanon in THE WEST (as if such a place exists)? Also why do you have to say deported? Deportation is when you're kicked out of a country. They were moved inside the Ottoman Empire. Exile is a better word, even relocation. But deported is misleading. John Smith's 13:10, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just to reiterate, the Turkish government's position is also on the Armenian massacre page. There's nothing wrong with saying they have a different view, but I don't see why you can have a link to their views and not the Armenians on the same page. John Smith's 13:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  John Smith 

message: Why is the demographics the second subarticle? As far as I know there is a well accepted convention about the order of subarticles in the articles for countries. I think we should use that one, or if there is not any convention what is used for most eauropean countries.Fethi 14:05, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Order of Subarticles 

message: If you are writing about turkish history, you can not ignore the armenian genocide, because this is a (of course ugly) part of the history. It has the same importance for turkey as the holocaust for the germany. But in contrast to germany turkey never admitted this.
You really think that? Let's take a look. The 3rd Reich killed over 6,000,000 jews in an industrialized, highly specialized way. And now let's take a look at Turkey. How many Armenians died? No one knows, the highest number is something like 1,500,000. And they wouldn't have been killed in the way the jews were. First off: This is very disrespecting and stupid. The next time think before you write something! 13:28, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  armenian genocide for turkey like holocaust for germany 

message: I find it difficult to believe that anyone thinks that only 10% of the Turkish population is non Turkish ethnically - 15% would be an absolute minimum, 30% an upper bound of estimates I've heard.
Also, while the kaleidoscope of minorities listed gives a feeling of Turkey's diversity, it does rather ignore the fact the Kurds are by far the largest minority in the country and no appreciation of Turkish history in the Republican period can be had without acknowledging the size of the Kurdish minority and its complex relationship with the Turkish state, and the importance of the "Kürt soru" (yes, we can call it that now).
Gerry Lynch 12:39, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the CIA factbook, 80% Turkish, 20% Kurdish. --E.A 14:24, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  That is inaccurate - no mention at all of the Arab population, must be at lest 3%.  Gerry Lynch 15:50, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I clarified the Demographics section on the minorities issue by adding a comment on the Kurds, the largest ethnic minority, complete with referencing for verification. The Kurds in Turkey today are 20% minimum and ought at least to be mentioned seperately. Colossus 22:25, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  There are data about ethnic minorities in Turkey on the page Demographics of Turkey (+ discussion page). I wonder if a full article on Minorities in Turkey would not be better than to limit the matter as a mere demographic question. This is an observation valid for all country articles (thus including e.g. Greece, Armenia and Bulgaria), not only for Turkey. --Pylambert 09:40, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Demographics

message: The following piece removed from "Demographics" section:
:The major regional diversities depend on culture, economy (industry and cash crops in coastal regions), and precipitation (Black Sea littoral where summer drought is unknown).
I assume it wandered there during cut'n'paste. Experts, please find a proper place for it. mikka (t) 02:10, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stray piece 

message: The article has become very fractured and cluttered in some places. The Geography section especially needs a rethink, perhaps we should scrap or relocate some of the images/templates etc. I think there are too many subtitles and links, especially when there are only one or two lines on the subject eg. Foreign Relations, Military Provinces, Cities, Climate, Industrial sector etc. They should be placed into their larger groupings. So Climate, Provinces and Cities would all be under Geography with their relevant links such Provinces of Turkey placed at the top of the page. --A.Garnet 17:58, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Layout needs rethink