Talk:British heavy tanks of the First World War

message: It says male and female weights in the specifications.  Is this vandalism? 17.107.83.31 01:23, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As stated in the article, there were Male and Female versions (meaning with and without cannon, indeed very Freudian :o); so, no, it is not vandalism.--MWAK 05:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

text: And you have done well. :o) However there's always room for improvement.
MWAK--84.27.81.59 21:25, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: Since the differences between the tanks is actually so little, certainly to the untrained eye, all the diffreent Marks should be treated as variants rather than separate vehicles. Compare with the treatment of the Churchill tank, and the layout for Whippet. Should I get a moment, I will work the article over myself.GraemeLeggett 08:56, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: You mean the Vickers Medium Mark II? :o) I'll try to help you out on that one a bit.--MWAK 08:31, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I've completed the list. The Duxford vehicle is the same as the Lincoln tank. All Ukranian exemplars are Mark Vs.--MWAK 10:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Oops, I made a mistake. The Lincoln tank is of course not from Duxford. Let me put it this way: I'm not aware of any entire WWI tank at Duxford. Are you sure there is one?--MWAK 18:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Male and Female versions

message: Does anyone have reliable information on the tank used in that movie? Internet sources frequently call it a German "Mark 7", but the only "Mark" tanks appear to be these British ones, which is rather confusing. 70.20.217.197 04:32, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The tank was a newly built vehicle, externally resembling rather closely the British-American Mark VIII (see: http://www.indygear.com/props/images/Beast2.jpg and http://www.filmtrickery.com/truck.htm ) but with a turret added. That "German Mark 7" would be a reference to the A7V, which type however is quite unlike the Indiana Jones vehicle. The Mark VIII was perhaps chosen because an exemplar was available in the USA. An informative site about all such film tanks is http://filmpanzer.squarespace.com/ --MWAK 05:33, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade 

message: These "popular culture" entries contribute nothing to the article itself - no information about the subject or its impact on war, history or society. If it leads to e.g. new phrases in a language, that's important because it tells us about the subject's impact on the world. But references in entertainment movies or commercial games do not meet these criteria, they are just things creative writers dream up with no context. Time to stop it ? Rod. Rcbutcher (talk) 02:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, they are not without context: evidently, simply by referring to the British tanks, these then become the context of the later cultural expression. And it shows to what extent these tank types are still alive in the collective imagination. Furthermore, if someone has the movies or the games as the departure point for his investigation — I fear this is much more common than the opposite case :o) — and then tries to find out what these strange thingies are, we can help identifying them. Such humble tasks are the core business of an encyclopedia.--MWAK (talk) 05:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

text: The portrayal of tank by British, wartime, popular culture is indeed relevant because they became a hugely significant tool of British propaganda. Look out for the short poem "Blighters" by Siegfried Sassoon in which he ridicules this. Catsmeat (talk) 08:29, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: A Mark I style tank is used in the opening scene of "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" movie. Bizzybody (talk) 09:41, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: My two cents, the popular culture stuff can be a bit irritating in articles, especially modern self-referential stuff like one Simpson's episode referenced in another, but I think modern references to historical objects are great to have in a Wiki. People often come to history through modern cultural references, and it helps to have a trail people can follow to the true story. Billyshiverstick (talk) 19:50, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Time to end this "popular culture" stuff ?

message: Article reassessed and graded as start class.  Referencing and appropriate inline citation guidelines not met.   With appropriate citations and references, this article would easily qualify as B class if not higher.   --dashiellx (talk) 16:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008 

message: Considering this weapon's importance to the history of modern warfare, can one of the tank experts out there consider splitting off Mks I - V into separate pages for each Mark, like other wikis have done ? There is enough difference and material to support separate pages, and would make linking easier, especially interwiki links. Rcbutcher (talk) 07:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: At itself this is a good idea — which I have proposed many years earlier :o). However, this does not mean that the present article need to be much condensed as it can serve as a general treatment of the subject.--MWAK (talk) 11:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Split! Andy Dingley (talk) 22:13, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we get the referencing better first? Then when split we could have a number of B class articles rather than a bunch of starts.GraemeLeggett (talk) 10:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The present chapters certainly are unfit to serve as separate articles; each article should be full length. So the "splitting" should not be taken literally; we can rename this one into British heavy tanks of WWI or something similar.--MWAK (talk) 12:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Time to split this article up into separate Marks ?

message: I feel like there is something wrong with this sentence:
"suffered from many bugs because of its primitive and cost-effective nature"
"Cost-effective" wouldn't qualify as a bug...maybe the author meant "costly"?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.82.133.73 (talk) 01:49, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "Cost-effective" is here a euphemism for "cheap" :o).--MWAK (talk) 03:59, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  cost effective? 

message: I've been trying to change the intro to this, but the server doesn't seem to like me:
::The British Mark I was a tracked vehicle developed by the British Army during World War I and the world's first combat tank, entering service in August 1916, and first used in action on the morning of 15th September 1916The complete guide to tanks and armoured fighting vehicles, pg 20, ISBN-13: 978-1 84681-110-4 . Born of the need to break the domination of trenches and machine guns over the battlefields of the Western Front, it was the first vehicle to be named "tank", as an expedient to maintain secrecy and to disguise its true purposeThe complete guide to tanks and armoured fighting vehicles, pg 93, ISBN-13: 978-1 84681-110-4 . It was developed to be able to cross trenches, resist small-arms fire, travel over difficult terrain, carry supplies, and be able to capture fortified enemy positions. It is regarded as successful in many respects, but suffered from many problems due to its primitive nature. It spawned nine subsequent variants, and initially proved so successful that their impact in battle was out of all proportion to their numberThe complete guide to tanks and armoured fighting vehicles, pg 20, ISBN-13: 978-1 84681-110-4  and British Army infantry could not be properly deployed to take advantage of the unexpected success.Brutaldeluxe (talk) 00:56, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  New intro 

message: Could we have some standardization please? Some of the article titles include the word "tank" and others don't. I think all articles about tanks should have "tank" in the title. Biscuittin (talk) 19:39, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: All articles about tanks in general or just the articles mentioned here? The first seems unnecessary — titles should in principle simply consist of the common name of a subject, not explain it — and the second seems already to be the case.--MWAK (talk) 06:51, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article titles 

message: In accordance with the de facto Manual of Style, this article should be split into several articles. The Mark II - Mark X tanks can all get their own articles. Each vehicle can get a brief description in a section labeled "Derivatives". The article Mark tank could be created to provide an overview of tanks in the series. Marcus Qwertyus  23:36, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "Mark tank"? Where the hell does that come from? 8-(  Andy Dingley (talk) 23:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

text: Indeed, it would not be easy to find a correct name for an overview article. Surely, the as yet non-existing Mark II, Mark III and Mark VII articles should be written first in a serious form, i.e. not as stubs, before the strictly Mark I-related content could be split off and the article renamed.--MWAK (talk) 07:04, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  See past discussion high up the page. Personally I don't have a problem with them as stubs (so long as no one then seeks to delete them). Besides which, there's not a huge amount to say on the II & III - we'd hopefully have someone with the time to do them fairly soon afterwards. It might be useful to split Mark I off too - keep much of this article and rename it as British tanks of World War I to make a more historical view (which is probably the most useful article of the lot), have the per-model articles as more technical descriptions. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:35, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that since the production and development of the British heavy tank of the First World War is interleaved it would be best to keep the majority of the text together, though renaming to British tanks of World War I would mean having to fold the Whippet story in as well - perhaps the title should make clear it refers to the Heavy tank only. With the exception of the Marks VI, VIII, and IX (which already have their own articles) the Mark I evolves rather than changes across the war - perhaps "Variants" could be renamed "Evolution". The current article is lacking in some areas, chiefly the actual service use. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:55, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not sure about the Whippet. "Heavy tanks" would be fine be me, but if the point of that separate article was to give a military history of the tanks, as opposed to an engineering history, then maybe the Whippet belongs in there too? Andy Dingley (talk) 13:16, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split articles 

message: On page 101 of Steve Cliffe's Churchill, Kitchener, and Lloyd George: First World War Lords (London: Fonthill Media / Philadelphia: Casemate, 2014), the author claims that after the demonstration of the tank on Feb. 2, 1916, Kitchener privately told Sir William Robertson, Chief of the Imperial General Staff, that his negative comments had been for public consumption, and that such an important new weapon should never have been demonstrated so publicly, to politicians.  This would suggest he though the tank a very good idea.
--Al-Nofi (talk) 18:16, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: An interesting piece of information. But unless some armour historian has made a special point of this, it would , I feel, be OR to include it in the article.--MWAK (talk) 19:22, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lord Kitchener 

message: The following hidden content was relocated to the Talk page below:
!---WORK IN PROGRESS, PLEASE DO NOT DELETE
===Variant Specifications===
Mark I Tank and its variants and successors	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                         	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                          	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                           	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                          	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                         	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                          	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                           	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                            	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                          	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors
Model / Specification                      	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark I	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark II	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark III	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark IV	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark V	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark VI	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark VII	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark VIII	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark IX	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark X
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END WORK IN PROGRESS ---
Whomever is working on this content, please do so here or in the Sandbox, not in the article proper.  When you have completed your efforts you may appropriately introduce it into the article. Wikiuser100 (talk) 01:04, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relocated hidden content 

message: Mark I Tank and its variants and successors	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                         	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                          	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                           	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                          	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                         	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                          	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                           	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                            	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors                          	Mark I Tank and its variants and successors
Model / Specification                      	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark I	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark II	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark III	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark IV	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark V	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark VI	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark VII	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark VIII	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark IX	style="background:#AFBBD2;" align="center" Colum width="90px"|Mark X
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END WORK IN PROGRESS ---
Whomever is working on this content, please do so here or in the Sandbox, not in the article proper.  When you have completed your efforts you may appropriately introduce it into the article. Wikiuser100 (talk) 01:04, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Variant Specifications

message: The number of machine guns carried by Tanks Mk I - V* is usually misrepresented. The Mk I Male had five flaps through which machine guns could be fired, one in the cab front and two in each sponson. In practice only three were used, the cab and one in each sponson. The Female carried two Vickers in each sponson and a Hotchkiss in the cab.
Mks II - IV had purpose built mounts, one in the cab, and one in each sponson for Males, two for Females. The confusion is caused by the fact that tanks carried a spare.
In the Mk V a rearward-firing machine-gun was fitted in the rear armour, bringing the total to four for Males and six for Females.
The list of users gives the impression that the Mk I saw service with a number of countries, which is not correct. Captured Mk IVs were used by Germany, and later Mks by a number of countries during and after the War.
Hengistmate (talk) 22:27, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Confused

message: Are not the same thing. I propose to amend this by removing the barbette reference.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hengistmate (talk • contribs) 11:44, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Sponsons/Barbettes

message: That isn't what David Fletcher says on p124. "Fighting battalions believed that it was bad for morale for tank crews to remove the bodies of their comrades from wrecked tanks, and left all this to the salvage companies. When tanks had been burned out this was very grim work." There's nothing about crews being forbidden to discuss anything. Have removed.
Hengistmate (talk) 15:00, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Salvage crews "forbidden to speak about this aspect of their work." 

message: I notice that a good deal of reversion has taken place here in the matter of the participation or otherwise of Mk V tanks in the Estonian War of Independence. This might be an issue not of vandalism but of historical accuracy. One hopes that no one has been too hasty or acted without examining the facts. Whilst it is undeniable that four Mk Vs were handed to the Estonian Army on condition that they be used to continue opposition to Bolshevik forces, and that a training school was set up under a Captain Shishko, I have yet to see a description of their use in combat. Although Lt. Col. Hope Carson describes British-operated Mk Vs travelling to Pskov in August 1919 and linking with Estonian units, the vehicles did not detrain and later withdrew without seeing action. Whilst Estonia sought independence, it is entirely possible to argue that all tank actions at this time were still a part of the Allied Intervention. They were certainly under the command of Gen. Yudenich, and while the Estonian War of Independence and the Russian Civil War are somewhat interwoven, it is far from clear that Mk Vs actively participated in the former. Any references that establish that they did would be very welcome. In the absence of any, I would suggest that the Estonian War of Independence ought not to appear in the infobox.Hengistmate (talk) 13:12, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Estonian War of Independence  

message: Have tried to clarify this somewhat. Having everything under the title of "Mark I Tank" tends to give the impression that information, especially that in the infobox, refers to this Mark throughout, which it doesn't. Have specified which Marks were used by whom (adding Japan), and pointing out instances where info applies only to the Mk I. Haven't included (yet) service with the White Russians, since the vehicles were operated by British crews; would welcome opinions on that. We await a decision on the inclusion of the Estonian Civil War.
With no disrespect, the page title causes the content to fall between several stools, but since there are other articles devoted wholly or partly to this subject, it's hard to think what it could be changed to.
The acquisition of Mk VIIIs by Canada is, I believe, a moot point, and it is suggested that this might be confusion with the M1917s. Does anyone have a reliable source that doesn't seem to have taken its info from Wikipedia?
Have also amended details of armament. Civil comments welcomed on all of the above.Hengistmate (talk) 16:40, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Split is long overdue. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:04, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Mark VIIIs were most certainly acquired by Canada.--MWAK (talk) 08:38, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Isn't that the point? It's incontrovertible that Canada acquired Mark VIIIs. It's questionable why they did this, and whether they used them afterwards, but Canada paid money to the USA to buy Mark VIIIs and they were shipped Northwards. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:02, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

text: Ah, sorry, I misunderstood. I can only add that Ellis & Chamberlain repeat their claim that they were used for training in The Great Tanks and the AFV 13 Profile. Ram and Sexton. But this obviously does not constitute an independent source.--MWAK (talk) 16:26, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

text: Well, it suffices that the claim is made in some published secondary source. Of course we don't have to state that the proof is incontrovertible :o).--MWAK (talk) 07:45, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

text: The claim is widely sourced, even by the URL that you posted yourself. The issue is more about what the article should claim. Is this "Canada trained with VIIIs", "Canada bought VIIIs for training, but didn't use them", "Canada only wanted 1917s but bought a job lot of both" or "Canada bought scrap metal, because there was otherwise a lack of scrap metal in Canada".  Clearing that up probably requires real research, in some Canadian government archive. In its absence we should remain non-committal: Canada bought VIIIs, VIIIs were shipped to Canada, the rest is unclear. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:57, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiple Edits, 12th April, 2012. 

message: This page is entitled "Mark I Tank" so why does it discuss other tanks such as the Mark II, IV, V, V* etc? The list of nations in the "Used By" section gives the impression that the Mark I was used by, for example, Germany. There are separate pages for all the other Marks of Tank, surely the information would be better placed there? If you check the Mark IV page, for example, it doesn't mention Germany. I feel that a page about the Mark I Tank should be about the Mark I Tank. Should the page title be changed to "Various Tanks of WW1"? It doesn't make much sense the way it is. O'Contraire (talk) 03:20, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the best way to proceed would be to split off (and expand) a separate Mark I article and rename this one to British Heavy Tanks Mark I to Mark X — or somesuch.--MWAK (talk) 08:38, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Splitting

message: I changed last sentence of first paragraph to, "Armament was of two types: naval 6-pounder (57 mm) guns, called a "male", and machine guns, called a "female"." I am just an interested layman, and found the references to "male" and "female" totally confusing. So I explained it at the top. I felt this was necessary because those terms appear in the InfoBox which is at the top. I firmly believe they should be defined right at the top. Tanks are inanimate objects and do not have sexual gender.Nick Beeson (talk) 17:43, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The Males also had machine guns though so that needs to be stated clearly (In the case of the Mark IV three to the females five). GraemeLeggett (talk) 18:47, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Also the armament as such wasn't called "male" or "female" but the vehicle versions.--MWAK (talk) 09:08, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

text: But it is common to refer to "male" and "female" sponsons; as in "hermaphrodites had one male and one female sponson." Hengistmate (talk) 18:05, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, it took me a while to figure out what the difference was for. Thanks for fixing. I may take a run at improving this, blending accuracy of technical differences with ease of use to the layman. Or :female" laywoman. :) Billyshiverstick (talk) 19:41, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Male & Female 

message: Hi all - I find the article is certainly encyclopaedic on the different variants and construction of the tanks, but is very short on the significance of the tank in WW1. Could anyone find a source with more overview and analysis? TX. Sorry, I just proofread and edit existing work, and don't have the backround on tanks. cheers all, Billyshiverstick (talk) 19:39, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a separate article: Tanks in World War I.--MWAK (talk) 05:42, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needs More Info on Effectiveness and Use. 

message: This page about english first world war tank Mark I seem not have the connection with Wikpedia pages in French,Italian and other very knowed countries.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.231.36.211 (talk) 00:22, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Connection of the page

message: I've restored the reference to WWII because some Mark V tanks did play a very small part in the conflict. Four ex=Estonian Mark Vs were used by the Red Army in the defence of Tallinn in 1941. A couple of Mk Vs were on public display in Berlin from 1943 until after the end of the War, but there is no evidence that they took part in any fighting or were even mobile. The last known operation was 1941, not 1945, but for personal reasons some "editors" will not allow this information to appear in Wikipedia. Hengistmate (talk) 21:13, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit by 98.80.223.229, July 7th. 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "The Mark I was the world's first tank,...." not so world's "first" considering and other constructors of tanks before 1916
:Therefore the sentence ends with "to enter combat" :o).--MWAK (talk) 05:12, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  a comment 

message: There is no discussion at all of how the weight of the tank is carried down to the ground. Of course suspension is a critical part of modern tanks using torsion bars etc. I gather that these old World War I tanks did not have any springs at all. The article needs to say that
Also needs to talk about the drive train … where is the drive sprocket?  and also the weight as it goes down to the treads and into the ground … are the treads just scraping directly across the tank body? Is there a lot of wear and friction there?  Noleander (talk) 03:54, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the British heavy tanks indeed had no springs (as stated in the box) but that was the exception: all French and German First World War tanks had springs. The drive sprocket is at the rear. Weight-bearing reaction forces were directed from the tracks via the wheels (so internally there are many rollers, top and bottom). The lateral extremities of the treads were not supposed to touch the tank body, so no friction there, in theory. In practice anything could happen, of course :o). If the tank was correctly maintained, the main wear problem was slack in the tracks.--MWAK (talk) 07:47, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suspension …or lack thereof … needs a paragraph.