Talk:Synesthesia/Archive 2

message: Hi.  The talk page is now 52 kb long, and we are consistently getting a long-page warning.Wikipedia:Browser_page_size_limits  
More importantly, however, is the fact that the page is becoming hard to navigate and many of the discussions on the talk page seem to be obsolete (for example, the reading as syn topic). To facilitate discussion of future changes, updates, additions, etc, etc, I am proposing that we archive anything on this talk page that hasn't been active for, say, one month.  Wikipedia suggests two ways to archive, and there are pluses and minuses to both.  
Wikipedia:How_to_archive_a_talk_page
What do people think, both about whether or not to archive, and if so how? I'll leave this for comments for one week, and then if there seems to be consensus, I'll archive this page. 
Edhubbard 21:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ed -- Yes; I feel things have built up enough, and have also changed (drastically) enough to justify archiving most of the older messages – or even whole topic areas.  As you noted, much is now obsolete.  As to how to do this, I really don’t know at the moment.  I do like your concept of removing anything which has been inactive for over a month.  Although, to be fair, that means that (that is, it thus quite behooves us that) people (you, myself, and others) should not only check out but also evaluate whether things are worthy of response, and, if so, respond, at a rate far more frequently than monthly.  --Sean A. Day 00:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your reply, Sean.  I think that, at this point, I am leaning towards a cut-and-paste by topic with light refactoring.  Since some of the topics seem to still be active, while others (Am I a synesthete? and Reading as Synesthesia) seem to be dead, I think that we will lose little by archriving those longer conversations.  Active conversations will not be touched.  I haven't had much other feedback, so I will probably turn towards this early next week.  If anyone has objections or other suggestions, please feel free to post them here.  Edhubbard 11:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive Talk Page?

message: Dawnfire added "However, it might be more accurate to describe the last two problems as being merely the tendency to reverse numbers and letters (a trait commonly found among non-righthanders).  This may cause some difficulty with things such as spelling or place value but need to translate into any general impairment in mathematics or literacy.  In fact, synaethesia is rarely associated with actual dyslexia/dyscalculia.      
The claim, often found in articles on the condition, that synaethesia occurs at the expense of mathematical ability, is thus inaccurate or at least seriously overstates the case.  In general, people with synaethesia are probably just as likely to be mathematically skilled as anyone else and can not be said to suffer from 'learning difficulties'.  On the other had the equally common claim that synaesthetes possess exceptional intelligence also seems to have little or no foundation."  
I have removed these sections because there is simply no published data one way or the other on these questions. If someone can find appropriate references, please feel free to add this material back in.  See NOR.  Similarly, there are a number of places where this passage seems to offer interpretations rather than data, which may run afoul of the NPOV.  There is no foundation, one way or the other, for the claims here, at least in the published scientific literature.  If someone knows of something that is published, or that will be published, please feel free to change the post back with appropriate citations  I am also posting this to Dawnfire's talk page. Edhubbard 05:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Associated Cognitive Traits

message: I have added a draft of a section concerning the possible neural bases of synesthesia. Richard Cytowic will also edit this section.  It is not yet complete, but it is a good start, and I believe that it is not unduly biased towards one theory or the other (for a much more complete, and techy explanation of these issues, see my 2005 Neuron review paper here | Review). 
I have also cited my refereences as I have gone along (usng "author-date" format) but I do not have time to update the references section today.  If someone else would like to add the references, please feel free. Edhubbard 19:46, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New Section: Possible Neural Bases

message: The Franz Liszt quote isn't in any standard Liszt sources, is it? It doesn't ring true. Alexander Scriabin would have been a more credible souce for this quote. I feel it's apocryphal User:Wetman
Well, no matter if it 'ring's true' or not, it appears pretty well-documented that Liszt saw sound... Khranus
Shouldn't "who's" be "whose"?
Some of those names might be a bit dubious-sounding; it would be nice if somehow some proof of their synesthesia could be put beside their names or somewhere in their articles (or even better, in this article).
Agreed -- I cant find reference to certain people being part of this list. Needs referencing, or it will have to go --DragonFly31 08:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, whilst researching about pharrell i discovered this video in which he says "it just always stuck out in my mind. and i could always see it. i don't know if that makes sense, but i could always visualise what i was hearing" "yea it was always like weird colors". is that clear enough to claim him as a synesthete? i know its hardly a diagnosis but i would have thought it was fairly clear..Also, whilst seeing if there was any mention of pharrell having Synaesthesia on the internet, i inadvertantly found that Rollo Armstrong of UK group Faithless is a synaesthete  ~Bungalowbill 04:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think both quotes are pretty suggestive.  Pharrell is, in some ways, more intriguiing because he simply reports synesthesia (or something like it). The fact that Armstrong knows the name for synesthesia and so on makes me a little more cautious.  You see, in the early 20th c. some composers and artists started reporting synesthesia because it was "in". So, the fact that Armstrong knows the name raises the *possibility* that he is taking this on because of the current interest in the phenomenon.  Further research would be required for both, but I will add them to Sean's list of "Under Review" synesthetes. It's also nice to have some more contemporary artists in the under review section. Edhubbard 11:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text:  Hello 67.185.230.159, While I agree that the Pharrell quote is suggestive, we are currently looking for additional corrorabting evidence.  Assuming we find another independent quote (which I expect we will) we will then move him from the "under review" section of Famous_synesthetes page to the main portion of that page, along with supporting quotes, and also add him to the main synesthesia page.  If you have additional sources, quotes, references, etc, please feel free to add them (indeed, please add them).  We're not opposed to adding anyone, but want to have a couple of quotes to verify that their experiences are not metahporical, etc, etc (see definition).  Edhubbard 12:00, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

text: i find it a little cynical that you believe there is significantly less credit to the claim of someone because they know what Synaesthesia is. I think if i saw colours when noises occured, or similar, i'd want to know what it was. It might have been en vogue in the early 20th C (perhaps many 'fakers' didn't even believe it actually existed?), but i can't see anyone would get anymore interest today (other than perhaps in abstract/art-house circles) for being a synaethete. and Rollo Armstrong is a fairly introverted member of faithless- he's not shouting it from the rooftops- you wouldn't have any idea he had it unless u researched it, which would in turn require u to alread be a fan. and as for current interest, well i'm not sure how 'current' you mean but its been on the internet since atleast 3rd august 01 . Short of a doctor's diagnosis- which couldn't be divulged anyway due to confidentiality, or your own testing- which isn't allowed in Wikipedia, someone's word that they have synaesthesia is the best possible.
on anther point- i think it would be good to add birth and death dates to the 'famous synaesthetes' section, as as u pointed out, many of them aren't exactly current. and isn't it 'spelt' in the first line? Bungalowbill 03:17, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List of Famous Synesthetes

message: When a synaesthetic person "sees" color when hearing, touching, or smelling something, that's understandable.  What I think the article could touch up on is, does this "seeing" replace what the person is currently looking at?  Or does it, to the person, alter the colors of what he's looking at?  Or does all of the "mapped" sensations occur strongly in the mind's imagination? --69.234.185.170 05:36, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Synesthetes, as far as I know, don't have "tunnel vision" or "one-track minds" unless there's another perceptive disorder offhand. Thorns Among Our Leaves 16:43, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

text: According to Ramachandran I believe (and accordant with my own experience) color-grapheme synaesthetes, for example, can still tell what color a letter is written in. For example, I physically see all this text as black, but I conceive of each individual letter, in my mind, involuntarily as a specific color. Torgo 22:57, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More specific please 

message: Do we use English or American spelling on wikipedia?  Because "color" and "colour" are both used at different times in this acticle.  Since I don't know which, I'm not changing it. -- User:67.70.207.15 10:59, 14 October 2005 
:Thanks for asking, it can be a contentious issue. The answer is that we use both (and even other varieties of English), but each article should be consistent in its choice of spelling. The guidelines are in the Manual of Style at WP:MOS#National varieties of English. 
:This would be an international article with no natural preference and I doubt it would be desireable to rewrite it in order to avoid the word 'colour/color'. As such it falls to the choice of English used by the first author; in this case, the original version appears to use British English. -- Solipsist 10:54, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have taken the liberty of rewriting the initial sections in American English, as that is what I preferentially use, and since the current version is *quite* far removed from anything like the original version, I feel that there is no need to remain tied to his or her original choice.  edhubbard
Along similar lines: I find it somewhat confusing that "Synesthesia" redirects to "Synaesthesia" when the entry itself uses the no-a spelling. Westacular 18:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree.  When I first started working on this project the article was in a mishmash of British and English spellings (colour synaesthesia and color synesthesia).  We recently have completed the conversion to American English, and all or most of the pages that link to this one use the American spelling.  However, it seems like migrating a page might be a bit of a headache, so I have left it for the time being while we focus on content.  Eventually, I think we'll have to bite the bullet and deal with this (see also Spelling below) Edhubbard 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling 

message: I have decided that it makes more sense to discuss the kiki/bouba effect only after synesthesia has been introduced, so I have moved it towards the bottom of the entry.  I have also made more explicit the link between synesthesia, the kiki/bouba effect and other areas of study, such as the study or cross-modal perception, and multisensory integration.  This section, and the associated cognitive traits section, still could use some expanding.  Richard?  Edhubbard 10:59, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorg: Moved kiki/bouba 

message: When making a lot of little edits to a page, it is helpful to use the 'preview' button instead of saving each edit individually. That way one can group several changes into one edit, with one edit summary. It makes it a little easier to read the History page when 10 spelling fixes have been put into one edit, instead of 10 individual edits. Its not a big deal, but its a helpful stylistic thing to do, especially when several people are actively improving one article. Thanks. Phidauex 18:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A modest request 

message: I have created :Category:Synaesthesia for this impressive collection of articles.  I realize there is a debate about the spelling, but the category can be renamed easily enough if necessary. Yours with a mundane perceptual system, Outriggr 05:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Outriggr, thanks for the category tags... I've just moved the page, and changed all of the category tags accordingly.  However, this now leaves a dangling blank category tag... How do we remove that from wikipedia, so that it doesn't clog up space?  I'll copy this to your talk page, too.  Edhubbard 17:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi Ed - I've added a category redirect to the former category - so any articles placed under it are apparently moved, automatically, by a bot to the correct category. Outriggr 23:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  category 

message: I just wanted to come on here and say that I think that this has become an excellent article.  The last time I looked at this page was a couple of months ago, and I wanted to change it around, but I didn't find the time.  Now there's a lot of great info on here, which is great for me, as a synaesthetic wikipedian myself, to see. Hpanic7342 13:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Impressive 

message: this sentence - "They have also shown that semantic influences often are critical to explaining the pairings between certain sounds and the evoked tastes, such as judge tasting of sausage" - is making no sense to me. what semantic influence explains judge tasting of sausage? is it that they both end in the same sound? does the word sausage taste like sausage? do all words endings in that sound taste like sausage? i assume the citations used earlier in the paragraph are where this is coming from as well, but none of those are linked online and i don't feel like a trip to the library over this. anyone  know? --dan 23:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Dan, Let me see if I can explain it better, and then I will move the improved explanation into the main page.  First, there's clearly an error there on my part.  *That* sentence should read "They have also shown that phonological influences often are critical to explaining the pairings between certain sounds and the evoked tastes, such as judge tasting of sausage."  To respond to the second part, not all words that contain the /dg/ sound (I don't have the IPA alphabet handy) will taste of sausage, but using statistical tests, it is possible to show that a much larger portion than would be predicted by chance alone taste of sausage if they contain the /dg/ sound.  Similarly (although one that is less familiar to an American audience) the phonemes /m/ /I/ and /s/ all elict the flavor of mince.  In addition, however, there are semantic influences, so that food names always taste of the food they match, and the word "blue" tastes "inky".  Most of these examples come from a single well-studied synesthete, JIW, but Ward and Simner have tested other lexical → gustatory synesthetes, and find that the same patterns hold generally.  Let me know if this still isn't clear, and I'll give it another shot.  I'm going to go fix the sentence on the main page right now...  Edhubbard 23:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lexical → gustatory 

message: Have no researchers ever considered the possibility of a link with coloured letter refrigerator magnets that people are exposed to as kids?
Personally, i always assumed that's why I did it. 69.181.120.218 04:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not only has this been considered, it has been researched more than a few times, including quite recently by Nathan Witthoft and Jonathan Winawer, whose article appears in the recent (Feb., 2006) issue of Cortex.  There are other similar cases to the one which Witthoft & Winawer report.  However, pulling everything together on this, the general finding is that such things as refrigerator magnets, puzzle pieces, coloring books, children’s toys, and the like, very rarely influence and shape synesthetic associations.  It does happen, as witness the above, but at a statistically very rare rate.  When such items do influence synesthesia, they also often only influence just a handful of the items in the series, rather than all; that is, for example, only the letters ‘A – E’ of the alphabet, only the digits ‘1 – 4’, or only three or four days of the week or months of the year.--Sean A. Day 13:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to add to that; as one who experiences grapheme→color synaesthesia, I considered that explanation, but I realized that most of my colors are far too oblique (i.e. various shades of gray and brown and orange, as well as black and white, etc). Most of the colors I perceive would never have appeared on a set of child's refrigerator magnets. Torgo 07:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grapheme → color synesthesia 

message: I just reverted several edits, the earliest of which had deleted more than half the page. The only reason I mention it here is just to say that all of the newer edits that got lost in the revert are either obsolete (as in the cases of minor edits to the paragraph I deleted before the revert) or edits that I would have deleted anyway (as in the case of # (cur) (last)  16:30, 17 October 2006 68.77.95.18 (Talk) (→Music → color synesthesia)). Just in case anyone had any qualms about that. Torgo 07:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and one of the edits that got lost in my revert changed some of the text quoted in note number 2. I checked the slashdot discussion from which the quote was copied, and the current text is correct. Torgo 07:20, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Torgo,  I was out of town for the Society for Neuroscience conference and was just catching up on my watch list.  Thanks for reverting those changes, I think that the majority of them were bad, but if there was something in there that was NPOV and not OR that we missed, I assume the original poster will re-add it.  Edhubbard 15:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert 

message: I've been thinking more and more about the way I think about things. I know this might not really be the most appropriate place to be asking questions (rather than article-specific information), but I figured this might end up being the best and most convenient place. I've noticed before that I do a lot of assoiciation between visual and auditory things (and other things, too). For instance, if I am listening to a new song that contains lyrics I can't understand, I always go look them up on various lyric sites to see what they actually are. But once I do that, I kind of create a mental map of the song with the lyrics placed in. I remember where the lyrics were fairly precisely on the webpage (ie. on which lines each individual word is, etc.) and relate it to the song when I'm listening to it. It's as if my mind is pulling up the image I have of the webpage in order to remember the words to the song, even though I've memorized it enough to not have to consciously do anything of the sort. I'm sure everyone does this to a certain extent, but sometimes it feels like it's getting in the way of the song. It's hard to describe, but it's as if I "know the song too much." Once I finish the "mental map" of the song, I don't like listening to it very much anymore. For clarification, this doesn't have the same sort of effect as synaesthesia; I don't literally see images. It's a very abstract, but linear, sort of pattern that just sort of "floats" in my mind. I usually divide the song with mental lines between the chorus and other verses, and I then think of it in spatial-visual terms as well--I can kind of see when I'm coming up to the "next section", or a "new layer" when another instrument comes in. The best way I can describe everything verbally is like a really long piece of sheet music with the different instruments on different bars that intertwine together and use sloping lines instead of musical notes. Or maybe I'm just exagerrating, I don't know...but does anyone know of any articles regarding association like this? In a shorter example, I'm good at remembering where things are and what order they come in, often more so than being able to remember what those things are (I might not be able to tell you what a passage in a book says, but I could probably tell you where on the page the passage can be found, and about how far through the book that page is located). As a result, I'm likely to experience or remember a book or song differently depending on how the book is printed or where I am listening to it (in the car or on my computer, etc).Saeghwin 01:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hah, I just found a page here that looks like it is describing what I am talking about almost exactly--even managing to use the same term "mental map" several times. Here's a passage, "Cognitive maps, mental maps, mind maps, cognitive models, or mental models are a type of mental processing, or cognition, composed of a series of psychological transformations by which an individual can acquire, code, store, recall, and decode information about the relative locations and attributes of phenomena in their everyday or metaphorical spatial environment...Put more simply, cognitive maps are a way we use to structure and store spatial knowledge, allowing the "mind's eye" to visualize images in order to reduce cognitive load, and enhance recall and learning of information. This type of spatial thinking can also be used as a metaphor for non-spatial tasks, where people performing non-spatial tasks involving memory and imaging use spatial knowledge to aid in processing the task. These can be abstract, flat or spatial representations of Cognitive spaces..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_map (Again sorry for filling up more space with unneccesary talking, I just thought this was too ironic to pass up) Saeghwin 13:16, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Question regarding some other stuff

message: Yesterday in psychology class we read articles about synesthesia - including spatial-sequence synesthesia, which I took the liberty of adding to this article, though not in depth.  Reading the description of spacial-sequence synesthesia in class gave me a shock, because everything it mentioned - a three-dimensional perception of time, etc. - is something I have done for as long as I can remember.
I sent the article to my immediate family, and everyone was puzzled (my brother's exact words were, "Why would anyone think like that?!  What a waste of energy!") - all except my mother, who replied at once, "Oh, I do that.  Does it go clockwise or counterclockwise for you?"
Well, then!
I've spent the last two days now asking my fellow psychology students about how they perceive time, and I must admit I am in complete shock.  I find it impossible to imagine past years as NOT being farther away than more recent ones, and any given year is OBVIOUSLY a counterclockwise journey around a beautiful, detailed oval.  For me, the seasons (generally speaking, respective parts of the oval are made up of flora regularly associated with that season in New England - though I live on the West Coast) fade into one another.  I am constantly aware of my orientation with regard to the oval; right now - the end of November, that is - we are all in the upper righthand bit.  Regardless of whether or not I deign to pay attention to the three-dimensional intricacies of a respective season of the oval, I am very aware spatially of what part I am at.  From what I am now hearing, most people have no inherent feeling of where they physically are in a year - all they know are numbers, or an image of a page of a calendar.  I tried to imagine "February" as its respective calendar page, but I can't help but be spatially aware of where the page physically is - the top stretch of the oval, obviously.
I think spatial-sequence synesthesia should be easy enough to picture; I have definitely seen drawings that convey the concept of a colorful, cyclical year.  But I suppose non- spatial-sequence synesthetes would have trouble instantly and inherently orienting themselves on a circle, and, indeed, would not see the point.
But I for one would feel completely disoriented and trapped in the moment if I did not view time spatially.  I know that time is in reality NOT three-dimensional, but, I suppose, abstract; my shock lies in the realization that most people cannot understand or appreciate the wonderful security of always knowing one's location in the broad scheme of things.  By comparison, viewing time as a matrix-like stream of numbers or as simply days on a calendar seems simplistic and devoid of feeling or appreciation.
:The brain is a powerful and mysterious thing, isn't it? Thanks for your contributions to the article, and I'm glad that your education hasn't just filled your head with facts, but brought you some insight into your own life. Phidauex 16:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. If you find you enjoy editing on wikipedia, I recommend signing up with a username and joining the action! Remember to sign your posts by putting four tildes in a row at the end of your post, like this ~~~~. That will automatically convert to your username (if you have one), plus the date and time of your post, so it is easier to follow conversations. Phidauex 16:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spatial-sequence synesthesia