Talk:Local government in the United States

message: :The term "local government" is often not used when describing the governments of major cities. Such establishments are said to maintain municipal governments.
I removed this text because I find "local government" to be used quite frequently to describe big-city governments. -- Beland 17:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terminology 

message: I've taken the plunge and just about completely rewritten the article. I don't claim that it's now perfect, but it's hopefully a huge improvement. It's certainly a lot more cohesive in my view.
I've excised a lot of stuff, particularly the various examples of local government from different states. I don't think that it makes sense to detail all fifty-one jurisdictions, which is where this article seemed to be headed; just a few exemplars are needed in my view. There are (or should be) separate articles for each of the states, which is where most of the detail belongs.
PS: I think I was saving my changes at the same time as someone else made some alterations. Apologies to the other person, but after all that writing I was too tired out to carefully review things further (and it's very hot and stuffy where I am at the moment!).
Silverhelm 21:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your rewrite is a huge improvement over what was here before. Doctor Whom 18:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extensive revision of article 

message: Do the Grand Divisions of Tennessee operate as local governments? If so, we should say so and describe their functions, with a source. If not, what is the point of even mentioning them in this article? Thanks. Doctor Whom (talk) 00:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grand Divisions of Tennessee 

message: The section on individual states needs to be pared down. First, it should not be a trivia section; most states' systems of local government do not stand out that much. Second, long, detailed discussions of particular states should be broken out into new articles, with references added. I have tagged the article accordingly. Doctor Whom (talk) 12:13, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  State section redux 

message: It states: "although the took things outvaries [sic] from state to state, typical examples include the city, town, borough, and village." I'm not sure what it's supposed to say. Maybe: "although the local government varies from state to state..."? Melofshanoah (talk) 20:43, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction

message: As county governments are already fully discussed in the Local government in the United States article, the County government in the United States article is redundant. Strongly suggest merging the county government article with Local government in the United States.  71.139.153.191 (talk) 01:32, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That might be even better. 71.139.153.191 (talk) 01:45, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Since County government in the United States consists of content already in one or both of the other articles plus unreferenced original research, there isn't all that much that's appropriate to be merged. Possibly the main issue here is where the title should redirect. --Orlady (talk) 14:27, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That occurred to me as well.  I'd support a redirect to County (United States).  In fact, I'm going to start the BRD and redirect it now, and we can discuss it over there, maybe? — alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:18, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

text: I went ahead and redirected it and started a discussion at Talk:County_government_in_the_United_States#Redirect_to_County_.28United_States.29.  If there's anything worth merging we can get it from the history, I think. — alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:22, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

text: *Question: Are there any references that unambiguously show that counties in fact function as an extension of state government? In every state I'm familiar with, counties are fully autonomous authorities within the bounds set out by the state. older ≠ wiser 12:33, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: *Sure! Here is a good online one that simply states it unambiguously. http://www.naco.org/Counties/Pages/Overview.aspx but you can also find the three main models in text books. At least you could 35+ years ago when I went to school. What they teach these kids now-a-days I have no idea. http://www.naco.org/Counties/Pages/HistoryofCountyGovernmentPartI.aspx Redddbaron (talk) 13:37, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: *Sorry, but I don't see anything that unambiguously states that county governments are in today's world arms of state government. These references discuss the origins of counties, but then go on to describe how the function of counties has greatly expanded. So no, I'm not convinced. Once again, in all the several states in which I've lived, counties operate autonomously within the bounds set out by the state. The state only extremely rarely directly intervenes in the operations of a specific county (such as when there is a fiscal crisis or some sort of malfeasance). This is for all practical purposes directly analogous to how municipalities operate. Indeed, if you follow Gregbard's line of reasoning, then townships are also extensions of state government. older ≠ wiser 13:54, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

text: *Indeed, this says "The longest-lasting, and potentially most profound, change in county governments was home rule.  In general, this new concept simply meant that state legislatures would give their counties grants of broad, general powers, under which the counties could actually function as units of local government." I think the sources you provide more clearly support counties being units of local government in today's world, regardless of their origins. older ≠ wiser 14:07, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: * "Subsequently, early state constitutions generally conceptualized county government as an arm of the state." ..... "These regional variations in county government structure and importance were repeated as the nation expanded westward in the century after the Revolution.  Virginia’s strong counties became the model system for the southern colonies, while Pennsylvania’s system of at-large election to strong county governments was replicated throughout most of the western United States.  New England maintained (and maintains to this day) its greater vesting of authority in cities and towns." How unambiguous do you need? Redddbaron (talk) 14:19, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: * Yes, the quotes you selected are about the origin of county government. The issue at hand is how they currently operate, and from what I see at the pages there, county government has evolved far beyond the original forms and currently are a form of local government. No, I don't think townships are an extension of or an arm of the state in the same way that I don't think counties are. The origin of townships parallel that of counties. They were originally administrative subdivisions of a county. If we go by the origin of counties being administrative subdivisions of the state, the townships therefore are merely a third-level arm of the state government. However, in practice, just as counties have evolved beyond the original form, so have townships. Both are in today's world forms of local government. older ≠ wiser 14:27, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: *Evolved is an interesting choice of words. hmmmm How to explain it...... OK try this. County governments are the local branches of state governments. Each state has its own right to decide how much administrating jurisdiction and power it delegates to its counties. But there is a clear distinction structurally between federal, state, and municipal governments. EXCEPT where municipal governments have been merged into county governments ie Now under state jurisdiction. You'll not see county governments "merging" into state governments. That's because county governments ARE branches (or arms or extensions) of state government. When that happens between county and state, you see instead the statement that the county government was eliminated. (ie they closed down that branch) I think the issue you are missing has to do with an equivocation of the word "local". A "local" branch, even a powerful branch, of the state government is still part of the state government structure. Municipalities are also "local" but in a different sense. They are not part of the state government structure. To make an analogy comparing it to business models. You may have a "local" McDonalds, but it is just a part of the larger McDonalds corporation, you may also have a "local" mom & pop burger joint that actually is locally owned and run.(with the exception being if they get bought out by the bigger chain) Counties are that "local" branch of the larger entity, while municipalities are generally locally ran. (with a few exceptions where they got "bought out" by the state ie. merged with the county)Redddbaron (talk) 14:54, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: *That's all fine and good from a theoretical and historical perspective. Practically speaking, and the way I read it, NACO agrees with this, counties currently function as units of local government, regardless of how they may have originated. As for your analogy, counties (at least in the states I'm familiar with, are for all practical matters treated on much the same basis as municipalities with regards to state oversight and governance. That is, the state authorizes the counties to perform certain functions and requires them to perform certain other functions, and beyond that it is up to the counties as to how that is done. The state does not generally have any role in the day-to-day operations of counties and there is no formal hierarchy by which counties are administered by the state. older ≠ wiser 15:24, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

text: *Redddbaron, your own sources on my reading contradict your point.  Obviously they describe how early state constitutions conceptualized county government in order to contrast it with how counties function now, which is as local governments.  What part of Changes in structure, greater autonomy from the states, rising revenues, and stronger political accountability ushered in a new era for county government. says to you that counties are branches of state government?  As for the fact that states mandate certain responsibilities for counties, so what?  States mandate certain responsibilities for cities and towns as well, how do you then claim that municipal governments aren't agencies of the state?  The fact is that none of them are.  Note that the federal government also mandates certain responsibilities to the states, which certainly doesn't make states agencies of the federal government.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:52, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: *Sighs... This will be my last post because I can already see the wall of willful ignorance that caused Greg Bard to go off his rocker. That same feeling is starting to build up in me too. So before I get banned and censured or whatever you guys do here at Wiki, I will simply bow out and let you guys keep thinking the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. It is not worth the aggravation to me to continue this any more. I wish you all well. I mean that sincerely. I will go back to editing agricultural and ecological wiki pages and leave the political pages to people more suited to a political mentality. Taking this off my watch list so I am unlikely to answer. If you wish to message me use my talk page. Cheers. PS I may not be discussing it any further, but my vote still stands, for what it's worth. Redddbaron (talk) 16:30, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: >> Detroit Bankruptcy Prods Cities to Target Pensions: Muni Credit(Lihaas (talk) 19:26, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links 

message: The US, being a dual sovereign system, each state gets to define what its local governments are. The US Census, as a unit of the sovereign federal government gets to put out its own definition. The 51 definitions do not agree which means that unless you qualify who is doing the counting, your government counts are going to be wrong. At present (and I've looked for it) there is no comprehensive listing of all governments in the USA. TMLutas (talk) 22:07, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  dual sovereignty and multiple government definitions 

message: What is the background that made many states (e.g. California) to require municipal government to be nonpartisan?  – Kaihsu (talk) 18:26, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  nonpartisan 

message: There appears to be no reigning naming convention on the different article names, such as the difference of Administrative divisions of Alaska, with Local government in California, should one be adopted? Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 23:44, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think all administrative divisions, necessarily, are also a local government. I think administrative divisions could potentially include things like state agency districts or regions, or even special state-chartered corporations with defined operating areas. It allows more flexibility. Since many unknowns might potentially be worthy of inclusion, I have been partial to "administrative divisions". int21h (talk · contribs · email) 04:37, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hm, but wouldnt local government imply any form of government inside of a state? I agree with you in terms of administrative divisions being a better name, if a standardization is to take place I think it would be administrative divisions. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 04:47, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly true, but even if an administrative division is local-ized, can't its government still be non-local/centralized? It just seems to me that while a state subdivision will always be local-ized geographically (or otherwise), its government need not be. "Local government" is just one of those set-piece phrases already in use in the US. int21h (talk · contribs · email) 05:58, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm true, I see the virtue of the two phrases. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 06:02, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: As do I, it's not clear. int21h (talk · contribs · email) 07:30, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Standardized Name of state's local government 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: As of 2017-10-28, the article claims "there were 89,004 local government units in the United States", and cited a page (2012 http://www.census.gov/govs/cog2012) that says, "Sorry, the page you requested has either been moved or is no longer available on this server."  (It's officially not a broken link, which is why a bot didn't catch it.)  
With a little more searching, I found https://www2.census.gov/govs/cog/g12_org.pdf, which reported that there were "90,106 state and local governments ... in existence [in the US] on June 30, 2012."  
I don't feel I can afford the time now to try to revise the article with this in mind, especially since this is far from my area of expertise.  However, I hope that this comment will help someone more competent than I make appropriate changes.  It's clearly important, because this article has averaged 370 page views per day over the past 90 days, and the plot suggests a steady increase from roughly 270 per day 90 days ago.  
Thank you to all who helped bring the article to this point.  DavidMCEddy (talk) 04:32, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broken link and apparent error in number of local governments