Talk:Kochari

message: I don't understand why this article was greatly shortened by User:Nareklm on January 31, 2007. The description of the dance, although imperfect, seems quite relevant to the article. Also, the names in other languages should certainly be included unless they are to be split off to separate articles (if they are significantly different). I have re-added the lost imformation pending an explanation. Rigadoun  (talk) 16:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Assyrian dance is obviously not needed, if we put that than put Turkish, Armenian, Greek dance links also and we don't want to clog it up with all those. Nareklm 19:07, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed this part because we don't need it its not relevant to the article, make an new article than post it there please . Nareklm 19:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, the audiolink "Kochari - Assyriant variant" is from a CD called "Assyrian folk dances", what do you think, is it a reason to add Assyrian dance link to 'See Also' subsection? I suppose we need a referenced statement proving that Assyrians too were inhabitants of Kars, along with Pontic Greeks, Armenians and Turks. Armatura 00:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: As a linguist, I notice that the various etymologies in each language are most probably folk etymologies, i.e. not actual scientific ones. Here's why:
1. We have an almost identical word in each language for a similar dance, hence the word must originate from one language (not necessarily one of the mentioned). (@Azeris&Turks: sit down, please, we haven't established the origin yet, so don't shout "Turkish!", hehe)
2. kotsi-, kotso- might be Greek terms, but what exactly does the precise form "kotsari" mean and what is the morphological explanation for this term? The Armenian etymology here is doubtful (can anyone refer me to a dictionary with "koch" for "knee"? I thought it's "tzunk", and ari is imperative of gal (to come), so "come!"). I don't think any of these explanations are true etymologies, but rather folk etymologies (i.e. when a usually foreign word is reanalysed to match similar sounding terms in one's native language). I am not sure about the origin of this word, but STRONGLY suggest against a Greek origin, for if it was Greek, it would have been borrowed in Armenian as "Kotsari" (Armenian has "ts"), so it is reasonable to assume koCH- as the original form. And as soon as I am back in my office and have my dictionaries with me, I will write about possible Iranian derivations. But for the moment, that's it so far. 
Just my two cents ;)
Hi. Maybe this is a recent update and you haven't had the chance to see it, but the word in Armenian is not composed of "քոչ" (k'oč') + "արի" (ari), but rather "գուճ" (guč) + "արի" (ari). The word "գուճ" (guč) is from Classical Armenian (some like to call it Old Armenian) just like "ծունկ" (cunk), and is a synonym for it. It is not used much anymore, except in poetry.
The form "քոչարի" (k'oč'ari) is most likely a result of contact with Azerbaijani "köçəri", and the pronounciation is most likely affected by it. The original form, therefore, would be "գուճարի" (gučari) and not "քոչարի" (k'oč'ari).
Here are a few dictionaries that register the aforementioned root, all reputable Armenian sources:
Institute of Language named after Hrač'eay Ačarean:, "Explanatory Dictionary of the Modern Armenian Language" (in Armenian), Yerevan, Publishing House of the Academy of Sciences of the Armenian SSR, 1969. http://www.nayiri.com/imagedDictionaryBrowser.jsp?dictionaryId=29&dt=HY_HY&query=%D5%A3%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B3
Ēduard Bagrati Aġayan, "Explanatory dictionary of modern Armenian" (in Armenian), Yerevan, "Hayastan", 1976. http://www.nayiri.com/imagedDictionaryBrowser.jsp?dictionaryId=24&query=%D5%A3%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B3
Nayiri Online Dictionary (Armenian to English)
http://www.nayiri.com/search?dt=HY_EN&query=%D5%A3%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B3&l=en
Nayiri Online Dictionary (in Armenian)
http://www.nayiri.com/search?dt=HY_HY&query=%D5%A3%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B3&l=en Աշոտ (talk) 05:14, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymologies doubtful 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: "Kochari" isn't (directly) linked to the armenian/kurdish/turkish word for "to migrate" or "nomad" although it sounds very similar. That's a folk etymology without any sense or connection to what the dance expresses. The original form in Armenian is "ghoch" meaning "ram" or "brave", this form is also linked to the armenian word "qaj" or "qajari" also meaning "brave". Kochari is generally regarded as a war dance, hence traditionally only danced by men. It is possible that in iranian languages (as kurdish) the same word root with the same meaning is in use, I don't know.
By the way, regarding the turkish/azeri explanation of the word as "nomad" I have to mention that the turkish word "köc" itself isn't originally turkish but derived from indo-european languages (either iranian or armenian). In Armenian we say "qochel" for "to migrate", "qochvor" for "nomad", both derived from "korchel" meaning "to disappear or to go away". Even in slavic languanges this indo-european word root exists, as "kochevnik" in Russian or "koczownik" in polish.
It is always helpful to look where the dance was common. It is obvious that under Armenians Kochari is regarded as "main folk dance" and while the dance is danced by nearly all Armenians from all former armenian-inhabitated regions, the dance is only common under those azeris, turks, kurds, assyrians and greeks who lived for long time next to an armenian majority. The dance itself has many similarities with the line dances of the other mentioned people, but "Kochari" is the armenian version of that common dance tradition.
I am far away from nationalist idiotism. Armenians share many dances with the neighbouring people, some of them have armenian names, some have non-armenian names, some names cannot be fully explained by any language. But everytime we try to explain a word we must look at all possible explanations and follow the most logic one. And it makes no sense to translate this word with the plural form of "nomad".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vahram1990 (talk • contribs) 19:38, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology of the word is explained completely wrong 

message: I am creating this sub-thread to allow a clean start for any WP:3O. There are mainly two sources to be discussed:
#A source ArmenianSniper has removed (website turkcenedemek) was erroneously mirroring Nişanyan's etymological dictionary (similar to websites that "mirror" Wikipedia). Although I have replaced it with the original source, they are still disputing it, because it doesn't . Nişanyan is widely cited throughout Wikipedia, and I've told them they could bring it up at WP:RSN twice, but they simply continued to WP:REHASH.
#I would also like to highlight the New York Times article that ArmenianSniper removed, which we haven't discussed above. First, ArmenianSniper removed it because it was inaccessible. (I thought it was an issue of dead url, but no, it simply requires a subscription, which is not enough of a reason to remove an RS. But still, then, I readded it with an archived url. ArmenianSniper removed it again, claiming it was still inaccessible. News flash: Thanks to the archived url, it is fully accessible now, they just had to click: 
These are not all the removals they have made, many of which could also be disputed. But let's first go through these two. Aintabli (talk) 18:31, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @Aintabli CC @ArmenianSniper  3O Response: RSN is a more appropriate forum than 3O to discuss your first question, and I recommend bringing it there where editors who know how to evaluate sources on etymology can weigh in. Since you haven't discussed the second issue with ArmenianSniper, I won't opine. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:14, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @Voorts, actually, I did bring up the second point multiple times in my edit summaries (and once here which they did not respond), but instead, ArmenianSniper continued reverting. I can now say that apart from the whole behavioral issue, the second point is also behavioral, and there is nothing to discuss content wise. The New York Times article is accessible, contrary to what they claimed, and them removing it is simply-put a violation of our policies. Aintabli (talk) 03:02, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: 3O is a way to get a neutral person to weigh in on a content or source dispute, not a means for adjudicating behavioral conduct. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:49, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @Voorts, you are correct. It is indeed not. I assumed too much GF at first by framing a behavioral issue as a content dispute. Thank you and sorry for taking your time. Aintabli (talk) 03:55, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Third opinion