Talk:Aryan Invasion Theory (history and controversies)/Archive 2

message: I have included new research on AIT.
--Jay74 04:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archived

message: Friends, there is a swiss-german admin of wikipedia called Dbachmann User: Dbachmann who holds deep hatred of Hindus and Indians in his psyche, for reasons best known to him only. He has been vandalizing any good article edits which even mildly favorable to Hindus. In place of that he spreads lies like Bhagvad-Geeta was written after Jesus christ's times and so on.
He was unknown to most Indian wikipedians till he tried to mess up the Rajput article. A cursory glance of his contributions on wikipedia convinced us to report this guy to other admins. He deserves to be banned from wikipedia altogether, and at the very least his admin previledges needs to be revoked. We have filed a complained against him. Here is a link to that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Dbachmann_%282%29
All self respecting Indians are called upon to go to this link and sign the petition. A complete list of charges against this user can be found in the petition.
Thanks everybody
Sisodia
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Several reasons why Migrations could not have happened after 3500-3000 BC
(a)	Hinduism almost disappeared in 600 BC after the advent of Buddhism. Did Hinduism exist only for 400 years before disappearing ? This is outright absurd ! (plus Hinduism was already In decline by 1000 BC – how could it begin to decline before it even developed ?
(b)	Sanskrit too meets with a similar fate if we take a date of 1500 BC : according to Indian tradition Sanskrit disappeared long before 1000 BC: This is simply irreconciliable.
     
Comment on this point : 
During Mahavir ( of Jainism ) and Buddha's time around 600-500 BC , people's languages were Pali and Ardhamagadhi. That's why they had given their teachings in that languages of common man and immediately got connected with them. That time Sanskrit was not language of common man but only literate people. Sanskrit's position that time was like English's current position in India which is language of Higher Education. Today only 5% of Indian population knows English. So, Sanskrit ( which literally means artificially created , perfected ) had died as common language and Prakrit languages had already started flourishing as language of people. 
This means that,
(1) Sanskrit from 1000 BC ( starting of Epic period as described in the West) to 600-500 BC was language of people. But here we require some gestation period for Pali and Ardhamaghadhi language development of 100-200 years minimum as similar period is given for Sanskrit from 1500 BC to 1000 BC. And, then it means Sanskrit was the language of people only for 200 odd years. 
                                            OR
(2) Migrating Aryans were already having Sanskrit language imported from Central asia. But then they must be possessing ability of Perfecting any language with complex but logical grammer.But Rig-Vedic Aryans were nomadic type people who had just come from central asia. Then , they were having sophisticated astronomical nomaclature also. Truely, remarkable advancement in it's type compared to vast Indus valley civilization's foolish people ( because then only this vast population can adopt the nomadic language which is only of it's kind postulated example in the world ) .     
(c)	There are hundreds of Pre-buddhist kinglists waiting to be dated (stories of these kings still form a part of daily culture): how can we make one part of our history disappear?
(d)	How can such a theory reconcile with the timeline of the drying up of the River Saraswathi? How does it explain references in the Rig Veda to the vastness of the River Saraswathi? (This was a was river till 3000 BC and dried up completely by 1900 BC.
(e)	In the recent past, the History of the Aryan kingdoms of the Gangetic plains has been painstakingly reconstructed all the way to before 1900 BC. How can such a theory reconcile with this?
(f)	How does it reconcile with the fact that Indo-Aryan Kings Sudyumma, Turvasa, Drhuya established three independent cities on the banks of the river Saraswathi (<1900 BC) accoriding to Sanskrit literature? There are several cities mentioned in Sansktit literature-many remain undiscovered
(g)	How could Aryans have destroyed ten million Harappans overnight? The Harappan civilization is now simply too big for us to even consider such a simplistic model. If this is so, how do we assume that Indo-Aryans had arrived at the same time that the Harappan civilization declined?
(h)	Why would anyone compose 10000 verses of Hymns overnight? The Rig Veda was an oral record of people, their culture, their triumphs and tribulations over the centuries. Of course,  It perhaps did not become a rigid tradition till 1500 BC
(i)	Why did the Aryans have to compose the Vedas the moment they landed in India ? The date for the Rig Veda doesn’t rule out the Aryans having existed in India earlier (Why did nomads develop philosophical instincts overnight?) The Rig Veda itself talks about several periods in History all based in India.
(j)	How does the Aryan Invasion theory explain certain similarities between Vedic and Harappan cultures especially in the newer excavations (> 2300 BC)? This means that they had interected with each other over a period of time
(k)	How does AIT explain the Aryan political process as described in Sanskrit literature which took place slowly and in stages?
(l)	The Rig Veda describes the Geography of India in very great detail and at best mentions an ancient homeland in passing. How does the Aryan Invasion Theory explain this? 
(m)	There is no record of Sanskrit existing in the same form anywhere outside India. Therefore Sanskrit may have evolved in India (though perhaps from an earlier common source).How can the AIT explain this? Sanskrit and Persian languages were related to one another but not similar
(n)	How could the “battle” of 1500 BC be fought using chariots? How did chariots evolve from a nomadic culture overnight? Therefore, this must have been a conflict within the Indian subcontinent and not an alien invasion. Barbarians or pastoral people don’t ride chariots!
(o)	How can the Boghaz Kuei inscription be explained? Also references to Indian kings in Persia in 1800 BC? Indian names could be differentiated from Persian names by 1800 BC. By 1800 BC, Aryans had already begun to rule from India. 
(p)	How does it explain the references to the river Saraswathi in the epic Mahabharata i.e 1500 BC? How could the “Aryan” epic age replete with kingdoms and chariots have begun before the Vedic age?
(q)	How does this theory explain the fact that Aryan and Non-Aryan kingdoms i.e Gandhara, Chedi, Khamboja were already existing at the time of the Rig Veda?
(r)	The general pattern of Vedic influences in Harappan culture suggests that Vedic speakers had trickled in from the North-east and not the North-west as previously assumed. How can this be explained?
(s)	How can it explain the fact that The Bet Dwarka site contains many Harappan elements and at the same time could be associated by many historians with a Sanskrit epic? This site has already been dated to 1800 BC – 1900 BC. That means the Indo-Aryans were already building cities by this time.
(t)	Indo-Aryan Gods like Brahma and Vishnu and many other beliefs described in the Vedas were already different from those of other “Aryans”(though the earliest and long forgotten God Dyaus Pitar may have been similar to the Greeks). That means the Indo-Aryans evolved slowly, over a period of time
          
(u)	The Indian and Persian Gods estranged from each other very, very slowly and in phases. All different phases were already captured in the Rig Veda. This too suggests that the Indo-Aryans evolved slowly. 
(v)	How does it explain the fact that the words Brahmin, Kshatriya etc were already being used at the time of Indo-Aryan king Yayati – who lived when the Saraswathi was still flowing. (<1900 BC)
(w)	DNA tests have confirmed a cosmopolitan set of people already existing by 2200 BC in India.
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The western `so called' Sanskrit scholars interpreted some sanskrit verse in their advantage to say that aryan are white & south indian people ( dravid people )are black.But in any ancient Indian text there is no mention of Arya as race or different people. Arya in those texts like Ved ( which means knowledge in Sanskrit ), Ramayan , Mahabharat etc. is mentioned as respect gesture in speaking like it's said in English Respected Sir or Madam OR `My Lord' in courts. Arya means one whose is noble in character and this is not said to any person who is Non-virtueous in nature.This is true for virtueous mother like Gandhari who was Duryodhan's mother but the same is not called for Duryodhan who was very non-virtueous person. So, coining `Arya' term as separate race only proved to be disastrous not only on Germans but also on Jews,Gypsies etc.Germany whose Max Muller initially called Arya as separate race but when Hitler's Aryan madness started affecting Germans negatively , after many years gulped the same words and said that by Arya he does not mean any person or race but purely language and not carriars of language.But it was very late and the world saw Second World War.
Arya word is also found in Old Pesian texts, Rock enscripts by kings to mention that they are `Arya' means noble and not any special race. Avesta by Zorostrians will show that there are words which start with `S' in Sanskrit but it's starting with `H' which is very common `apabhransh' ( in Sanskrit it means degraded form )word speaking. Similar types of Apabhransh is found in Modern Indian languages which derives heavily from Sanskrit. (Like `V' becoming `B' in Bangla language ) And these Apabhransh is more nearer than any Non-Indian language word.
In ancient India Dravid term was used to mention south beyond Vindhya Mountain range in central India which roughly divides North & South. But Maharahtra and Gujarat people are also called Dravida in that sense by South Indian texts but there languages means Marathi & Gujarati are called as IE one. Now let me ask you all, is Italic - Greek and Norway - finnish person is not different in look and skin tone wise. Norway is in extreme North and Italy - Greece in South getting Mediteranian sun shine. So clearly more darker then Finnish poeple. So, can we say them as different racially ? ( As same logic is implied on India ). Do you know Lithuanian & Latvian has very much similarity in Grammer & structure wise with Sanskrit. Why these `so called Baltic' group is showing much more similarity with Sanskrit. If you know Sanskrit then it can called very much scientific language. Do you feel that any nomad people in central asia can produce such a scientific language ? Right or wrong ? If right then Why after many milleniums Central Asia is not advanced in language & science wise if same people who have migrated in India in form of `Aryan Migration Theory'. The Aryan Invasion becomes Migration theory ( ya, it's only theory without any proof. Right? ) And what about finding of ancient Saraswati river in NW India with all types of proofs.This same Saraswati river is cherished in Rigveda with naming her Mother River and Greatest River. This river totally stopped flowing Indian soil around 1900 BC and then in 1500 BC ( date given by Max Muller ) so called Aryans migrates to India and writes poems in praise of Saraswati river. Really they have great feeling for the dead river then their `original' central asian homeland river that they are saying verses to praise that river whose width was 3 to 10 Km in width during her hay day. Secondly, I want to quate that when Alexander came to NW India then they were amazed to see big rivers of NW India which is written as very much bigger than any European,Persian or Nile in Egypt.
I say that a great culture like Indus valley civilization ( which had common weights & measurements, planned towns with waste water underground pipelines, very advanced astrology and mathamatics, having area much bigger than ancient Greek , Mesopotamia , Egypt civilizations all combined ) ; very very civilized than central asian nomad wonderers can only produce very logical, phonetical and very structural language like Sanskrit and not nomad people of Steppes. Phonetic's separate understanding is not required ( unlike in English ) in Sanskrit and other Indian languages which is writtern exactly in the same way letters are pronounced. This was biggest feat of Devnagari script in which this became possible.
From Vedic times , great Rishis had put great emphasis on right pronunciation of Sanskrit words as Sanskrit words are derived from some particular word root and so the word should be properly pronounced. That's why all Vedas,Upnishads etc. are available today in the same proper words without any deviation from last atleast 5,000 years. This Vedic Rishis have always believed that Good teachings passed on to future generations is more important and will be more remembered than any Strucure which can / will be destroyed by passing ages. Vedas are written in Poetic forms with Superb mathematical type joining of words ( found only in Sanskrit & it's daughter Indian languages).This makes remembering them much easier. (What do you remember your childhood poems or pros in better way ? Naturally poems, right ! This is the simple logic of composing Vedas, Upnishads, Ramayan, Mahabharat in verse form so that they are perfectly remembered. That's why Vedas are the first ancient literature available in the world. There are unique mathematical links available in Rig Veda. Also it mentions some unique astronomical observations from which one can get the time of creation of that verse.All this is ignored by Max Muller and his followers and said that they are absurds or written much after than actually happened. If that is possible to write down that unique astronomical situations then it means that ancient Indians were having very highly computer type mind as back dating observations can be known only by today's complicated computer softwares as to do mathematically is impossible. All this to give credit to nomads of steppes is like attributing USA's current achivements to Eskimos by some `Max Muller' after some milleniums in future.
If `so called Aryans' are Non-Indian origin then why major Hindu gods like Vishnu,Ram,Krishna,Shiva are portrayed as Dark Bluish / Black in skin colour for which `so called white aryans' should have allergy.( Color racism was till recently official in South Africa )
Secondly, Tamil people attribute their language to Sage Agatsya who was ancient great sage ( Rishi ) from `so called Aryan world'. Just explain these riddle please !
In Mahabharat it is mentioned that during that time Saraswati was not perennial river and instead of ending in sea , it is ending in land area. If Mahabharat is thought to be during around 3300 BC then it means that from 3300 BC to 1900 BC ( when Saraswati was almost totally stopped flowing ) the river was flowing and ending in land area. ( Note that Dr. Vartak has scientifically decoded the dating mystery associated with it by using deep knowledge of Indian astonomy and extracting some unique time indiacating verses and told us that Mahabharat actually happened on 16 th October 5561 BC with exact dates and proof of arriving at the date. This available on the net but to understand it you require knowledge of Indian astronomic terms which are from Vedic times and still in use very actively )
In Mahabharat also Saraswati is thought to be ceasing continuously. That means the reason because of which Saraswati river got affected and Satluj & Yamuna stopped of being it's tributory ( this is said on proofs and is not theory ) is much older phenomenon then Mahabharat. Also, Krishna was born in Mathura & spent childhood in Gokul which is on the banks of Yamuna. So, Yamuna diverting from Saraswati to Ganga is very older than Mahabharat itself.
Secondly, Mahabharat is some what urben type and many kingdoms mentioning saga. In it Ganga is prominent.
Indians say that Prayag ( Allahabad in U.P. state ) as Triveni Sangam ( confluence ) of Ganga, Yamuna & Saraswati rivers. `Saraswati is thought to be flowing underground & meeting here'. This is though a myth gives idea that Yamuna which was meeting Saraswati in the past , is now meeting Ganga and by underground of Saraswati mentions vanishing of Saraswati in Land area & thinking that it's going underground to meet sea ( which it was previously ).
This is combination of thought based on some real history.
Secondly, in dry Saraswati river area like Pushkar in Rajasthan or Sidhpur in North Gujarat there still small river named saraswati. In Sidhpur, there is also old temple after Saraswati. Both area are found to on dry river bed of ancient saraswati river. Indians seem to be remembering very ancient things very nicely. ONLY THEY FORGOT ARYAN INVASION OR MIGRATION THEORY. Really sad for Western so called scholars !
If any thing is required to defend that then write it pure logical manner.
The AIT theory was inspired by British political people to say about its legitimacy of its occupation of India,to get some answer of then found similarity between Sanskrit & other European languages and to facilitate Christian Missionery which were facing hard times to convert Hindu. This will be their agenda of `Divide & Rule' which Britishers used ( I don't have any bad feeling for current Brits ). The details are available on the net. India was the richest country in the world before Britishers rule on India ( like US is today ) and the current situation of poor Indians will give shock to those Western people who are not aware about where India lies geographically ( forget about their knowledge of India's past which is seen with the false fabrication & misrepresented stories). If you want to know about Britishers policy then just know that even though India was highest producer of Cotton crop but then also it was not allowed to make cloth on machine ( to make England rich ).Everything was to be imported from Briton and it was one major reason because of which Briton's economy was steaming ahead.
HOW WILL YOU REACT IF YOUR RULER BREAKS THE CHURCH AND CONSTRUCTS THE MOSQUE ON THE SAME SITE. FOR YOU SPAIN IS EXAMPLE. THE SAME IS WITH INDIA. WHEN IT WAS FOR SPAIN THEN IT IS CHERISHED CHRISTIAN REACTION BUT WHEN IT COMES TO INDIA THEN IT'S HINDU FASICSTS. WHY CHURCH IS RIGHT AND TEMPLE OF RAM ON HIS BIRTHPLACE IS WRONG ? For this even historical records speak that there was Ram Temple which Babar broke and made Mosque on it ( like thousands of beautiful temples were broken and that's why you find few temples before Muslim invasion. It's good that Angkor Wat is in Camodia & not in India ). If you have visited Qutab Minar in Delhi then that complex is made from previous Hindu & Jain temples there. Yes, India was so advanced that more than 1600 years old Iron Pillar is not rusted. To make such a long pillar now is also engineering problem or puzzle by Modern Iron makers. Read about it on the net and you will understand India had not only made advanced progress in other subjects but also in Chemistry, Metallurgy. You can say that for almost all subjects which Europeans says sign of culture, you can find lots of systematic written work. Sanskrit written work ( even after huge losts ) is much more than all combined work till 17 - 18 century. Even Indian dance & music has scientific & mathematical basis ( unlike Pop & Disco dance & music. But today's majority Indian youth find hard to understand the science behind Indian Music & Classical dances which not only gives pleasure to body but also mind. That's why they do not require any Heroin,Escatcy type drugs or alcohol to get temporary high which is very bad for youths in every way )
Indians are having very ancient traditions that the first civilization spunge up on Indian soil. It was concepulised by Vedic Rishis ( Sages ) who developed very high standards & virtues. For them Knowledge was very much sought after. This also made Ayurveda to develop. Still today their concepts are true. Ancient Indians have observed their land, sky, plants to that deep level that they were having better knowledge about human body better than few centuries before Europeans.
To go extreme deep in their knowledge about undestanding this world which led them to develop Ancient Indians to develop major treaties of science, maths , language, arts , music etc. Their systematic development was such that India was sought after by Non-Indian Students in ancient days for Knowledge to Columbus ( who left to search Indian sea route as land route was blocked by Turks by capturing Istambul ), Vasco-Da-Gama to Britishers for HUGE PROFIT etc.
`Femine of Bengal' in 19th century under British Rule which caused millions of people to die. But why this femine occured. It was not at all due to lack of rain. Bengal region ( current West Bangal + Bangladesh which is highly populated but very poor ) is such that it will alway receive very good rains ( If it does not rain in Bangal or Konkan then whole India will not get any rain - due to Monsoon winds mechanism ). Also , Bengal region is fully mouth area of Ganga & Bramhaputra rivers which will never have problem of water ). IT WAS DUE TO INDIGO CROPS THAT WAS TAKEN FOR SOME YEARS CONTINUOUSLY AS IT WAS FORCED BY THEN BRITISH RULERS WHICH WAS PROVIDING HUGE PROFIT TO THEM. But this Indigo crop which was only source of Blue colour before advent of Artificial Chemical Dyes should not be taken continuously from the same land as it extracts all fertile power of land. Due to this continuous Indigo crops , the land became non-productive for their staple Rice crop. Due to this Rice crop for some years could not happen and millions of Bengalis died. BUT THE WHOLE STORY IS NAMED AS `FEMINE OF BENGAL' AS IF THAT RICE CROP FAILED DUE TO LACK OF WATER. THIS IS SAME MISGUIDING LIKE `FIRE OF SAN FRANSISCO'. THE FIRE WAS DUE TO TERRIBLE EARTHQUAKE BUT IT WAS MISQUOTED AS DURING S.F. WAS PROSEPROUS CITY IN USA AND IF EARTHQUAKE GHOST WILL REMAIN IN OTHER US PEOPLE THEN IT WOULD BAD FOR SF'S ECONOMY.
THE SAME WAY `ARYAN INVASION THEORY' WAS FABRICATED TO MISGUIDE THE WORLD BY THEN THEIR `GOBBLE'S ' PROPOGANDA. The reasons are well adressed on the internet which I will not repeat again here.
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For some folks it is not enough to censor the main article in a one-sided manner, they also are busy deleting valid points raised on discussion pages! I think the only solution is that Indians (where English is also OFFICIAL language) need to open another English-wikipedia article on the AIT/MIT. Because the current page has only room for only one point of view and that is "western-centric" or "euriocentric" version.
:This page is for discussion of the content of the article, not for endless ranting and rambling. However, state what "valid points" have been deleted from this page. Paul B 18:14, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Call To Arms 

message: Several reasons why Migrations could not have happened after 3500-3000 BC
(a)	Hinduism almost disappeared in 600 BC after the advent of Buddhism. Did Hinduism exist only for 400 years before disappearing ? This is outright absurd ! (plus Hinduism was already In decline by 1000 BC – how could it begin to decline before it even developed ?
(b)	Sanskrit too meets with a similar fate if we take a date of 1500 BC : according to Indian tradition Sanskrit disappeared long before 1000 BC: This is simply irreconciliable.
     
Comment on this point : 
During Mahavir ( of Jainism ) and Buddha's time around 600-500 BC , people's languages were Pali and Ardhamagadhi. That's why they had given their teachings in that languages of common man and immediately got connected with them. That time Sanskrit was not language of common man but only literate people. Sanskrit's position that time was like English's current position in India which is language of Higher Education. Today only 5% of Indian population knows English. So, Sanskrit ( which literally means artificially created , perfected ) had died as common language and Prakrit languages had already started flourishing as language of people. 
This means that,
(1) Sanskrit from 1000 BC ( starting of Epic period as described in the West) to 600-500 BC was language of people. But here we require some gestation period for Pali and Ardhamaghadhi language development of 100-200 years minimum as similar period is given for Sanskrit from 1500 BC to 1000 BC. And, then it means Sanskrit was the language of people only for 200 odd years. 
                                            OR
(2) Migrating Aryans were already having Sanskrit language imported from Central asia. But then they must be possessing ability of Perfecting any language with complex but logical grammer.But Rig-Vedic Aryans were nomadic type people who had just come from central asia. Then , they were having sophisticated astronomical nomaclature also. Truely, remarkable advancement in it's type compared to vast Indus valley civilization's foolish people ( because then only this vast population can adopt the nomadic language which is only of it's kind postulated example in the world ) .     
(c)	There are hundreds of Pre-buddhist kinglists waiting to be dated (stories of these kings still form a part of daily culture): how can we make one part of our history disappear?
(d)	How can such a theory reconcile with the timeline of the drying up of the River Saraswathi? How does it explain references in the Rig Veda to the vastness of the River Saraswathi? (This was a was river till 3000 BC and dried up completely by 1900 BC.
(e)	In the recent past, the History of the Aryan kingdoms of the Gangetic plains has been painstakingly reconstructed all the way to before 1900 BC. How can such a theory reconcile with this?
(f)	How does it reconcile with the fact that Indo-Aryan Kings Sudyumma, Turvasa, Drhuya established three independent cities on the banks of the river Saraswathi (<1900 BC) accoriding to Sanskrit literature? There are several cities mentioned in Sansktit literature-many remain undiscovered
(g)	How could Aryans have destroyed ten million Harappans overnight? The Harappan civilization is now simply too big for us to even consider such a simplistic model. If this is so, how do we assume that Indo-Aryans had arrived at the same time that the Harappan civilization declined?
(h)	Why would anyone compose 10000 verses of Hymns overnight? The Rig Veda was an oral record of people, their culture, their triumphs and tribulations over the centuries. Of course,  It perhaps did not become a rigid tradition till 1500 BC
(i)	Why did the Aryans have to compose the Vedas the moment they landed in India ? The date for the Rig Veda doesn’t rule out the Aryans having existed in India earlier (Why did nomads develop philosophical instincts overnight?) The Rig Veda itself talks about several periods in History all based in India.
(j)	How does the Aryan Invasion theory explain certain similarities between Vedic and Harappan cultures especially in the newer excavations (> 2300 BC)? This means that they had interected with each other over a period of time
(k)	How does AIT explain the Aryan political process as described in Sanskrit literature which took place slowly and in stages?
(l)	The Rig Veda describes the Geography of India in very great detail and at best mentions an ancient homeland in passing. How does the Aryan Invasion Theory explain this? 
(m)	There is no record of Sanskrit existing in the same form anywhere outside India. Therefore Sanskrit may have evolved in India (though perhaps from an earlier common source).How can the AIT explain this? Sanskrit and Persian languages were related to one another but not similar
(n)	How could the “battle” of 1500 BC be fought using chariots? How did chariots evolve from a nomadic culture overnight? Therefore, this must have been a conflict within the Indian subcontinent and not an alien invasion. Barbarians or pastoral people don’t ride chariots!
(o)	How can the Boghaz Kuei inscription be explained? Also references to Indian kings in Persia in 1800 BC? Indian names could be differentiated from Persian names by 1800 BC. By 1800 BC, Aryans had already begun to rule from India. 
(p)	How does it explain the references to the river Saraswathi in the epic Mahabharata i.e 1500 BC? How could the “Aryan” epic age replete with kingdoms and chariots have begun before the Vedic age?
(q)	How does this theory explain the fact that Aryan and Non-Aryan kingdoms i.e Gandhara, Chedi, Khamboja were already existing at the time of the Rig Veda?
(r)	The general pattern of Vedic influences in Harappan culture suggests that Vedic speakers had trickled in from the North-east and not the North-west as previously assumed. How can this be explained?
(s)	How can it explain the fact that The Bet Dwarka site contains many Harappan elements and at the same time could be associated by many historians with a Sanskrit epic? This site has already been dated to 1800 BC – 1900 BC. That means the Indo-Aryans were already building cities by this time.
(t)	Indo-Aryan Gods like Brahma and Vishnu and many other beliefs described in the Vedas were already different from those of other “Aryans”(though the earliest and long forgotten God Dyaus Pitar may have been similar to the Greeks). That means the Indo-Aryans evolved slowly, over a period of time
          
(u)	The Indian and Persian Gods estranged from each other very, very slowly and in phases. All different phases were already captured in the Rig Veda. This too suggests that the Indo-Aryans evolved slowly. 
(v)	How does it explain the fact that the words Brahmin, Kshatriya etc were already being used at the time of Indo-Aryan king Yayati – who lived when the Saraswathi was still flowing. (<1900 BC)
(w)	DNA tests have confirmed a cosmopolitan set of people already existing by 2200 BC in India.
____________________________________________________________
The western `so called' Sanskrit scholars interpreted some sanskrit verse in their advantage to say that aryan are white & south indian people ( dravid people )are black.But in any ancient Indian text there is no mention of Arya as race or different people. Arya in those texts like Ved ( which means knowledge in Sanskrit ), Ramayan , Mahabharat etc. is mentioned as respect gesture in speaking like it's said in English Respected Sir or Madam OR `My Lord' in courts. Arya means one whose is noble in character and this is not said to any person who is Non-virtueous in nature.This is true for virtueous mother like Gandhari who was Duryodhan's mother but the same is not called for Duryodhan who was very non-virtueous person. So, coining `Arya' term as separate race only proved to be disastrous not only on Germans but also on Jews,Gypsies etc.Germany whose Max Muller initially called Arya as separate race but when Hitler's Aryan madness started affecting Germans negatively , after many years gulped the same words and said that by Arya he does not mean any person or race but purely language and not carriars of language.But it was very late and the world saw Second World War.
Arya word is also found in Old Pesian texts, Rock enscripts by kings to mention that they are `Arya' means noble and not any special race. Avesta by Zorostrians will show that there are words which start with `S' in Sanskrit but it's starting with `H' which is very common `apabhransh' ( in Sanskrit it means degraded form )word speaking. Similar types of Apabhransh is found in Modern Indian languages which derives heavily from Sanskrit. (Like `V' becoming `B' in Bangla language ) And these Apabhransh is more nearer than any Non-Indian language word.
In ancient India Dravid term was used to mention south beyond Vindhya Mountain range in central India which roughly divides North & South. But Maharahtra and Gujarat people are also called Dravida in that sense by South Indian texts but there languages means Marathi & Gujarati are called as IE one. Now let me ask you all, is Italic - Greek and Norway - finnish person is not different in look and skin tone wise. Norway is in extreme North and Italy - Greece in South getting Mediteranian sun shine. So clearly more darker then Finnish poeple. So, can we say them as different racially ? ( As same logic is implied on India ). Do you know Lithuanian & Latvian has very much similarity in Grammer & structure wise with Sanskrit. Why these `so called Baltic' group is showing much more similarity with Sanskrit. If you know Sanskrit then it can called very much scientific language. Do you feel that any nomad people in central asia can produce such a scientific language ? Right or wrong ? If right then Why after many milleniums Central Asia is not advanced in language & science wise if same people who have migrated in India in form of `Aryan Migration Theory'. The Aryan Invasion becomes Migration theory ( ya, it's only theory without any proof. Right? ) And what about finding of ancient Saraswati river in NW India with all types of proofs.This same Saraswati river is cherished in Rigveda with naming her Mother River and Greatest River. This river totally stopped flowing Indian soil around 1900 BC and then in 1500 BC ( date given by Max Muller ) so called Aryans migrates to India and writes poems in praise of Saraswati river. Really they have great feeling for the dead river then their `original' central asian homeland river that they are saying verses to praise that river whose width was 3 to 10 Km in width during her hay day. Secondly, I want to quate that when Alexander came to NW India then they were amazed to see big rivers of NW India which is written as very much bigger than any European,Persian or Nile in Egypt.
I say that a great culture like Indus valley civilization ( which had common weights & measurements, planned towns with waste water underground pipelines, very advanced astrology and mathamatics, having area much bigger than ancient Greek , Mesopotamia , Egypt civilizations all combined ) ; very very civilized than central asian nomad wonderers can only produce very logical, phonetical and very structural language like Sanskrit and not nomad people of Steppes. Phonetic's separate understanding is not required ( unlike in English ) in Sanskrit and other Indian languages which is writtern exactly in the same way letters are pronounced. This was biggest feat of Devnagari script in which this became possible.
From Vedic times , great Rishis had put great emphasis on right pronunciation of Sanskrit words as Sanskrit words are derived from some particular word root and so the word should be properly pronounced. That's why all Vedas,Upnishads etc. are available today in the same proper words without any deviation from last atleast 5,000 years. This Vedic Rishis have always believed that Good teachings passed on to future generations is more important and will be more remembered than any Strucure which can / will be destroyed by passing ages. Vedas are written in Poetic forms with Superb mathematical type joining of words ( found only in Sanskrit & it's daughter Indian languages).This makes remembering them much easier. (What do you remember your childhood poems or pros in better way ? Naturally poems, right ! This is the simple logic of composing Vedas, Upnishads, Ramayan, Mahabharat in verse form so that they are perfectly remembered. That's why Vedas are the first ancient literature available in the world. There are unique mathematical links available in Rig Veda. Also it mentions some unique astronomical observations from which one can get the time of creation of that verse.All this is ignored by Max Muller and his followers and said that they are absurds or written much after than actually happened. If that is possible to write down that unique astronomical situations then it means that ancient Indians were having very highly computer type mind as back dating observations can be known only by today's complicated computer softwares as to do mathematically is impossible. All this to give credit to nomads of steppes is like attributing USA's current achivements to Eskimos by some `Max Muller' after some milleniums in future.
If `so called Aryans' are Non-Indian origin then why major Hindu gods like Vishnu,Ram,Krishna,Shiva are portrayed as Dark Bluish / Black in skin colour for which `so called white aryans' should have allergy.( Color racism was till recently official in South Africa )
Secondly, Tamil people attribute their language to Sage Agatsya who was ancient great sage ( Rishi ) from `so called Aryan world'. Just explain these riddle please !
In Mahabharat it is mentioned that during that time Saraswati was not perennial river and instead of ending in sea , it is ending in land area. If Mahabharat is thought to be during around 3300 BC then it means that from 3300 BC to 1900 BC ( when Saraswati was almost totally stopped flowing ) the river was flowing and ending in land area. ( Note that Dr. Vartak has scientifically decoded the dating mystery associated with it by using deep knowledge of Indian astonomy and extracting some unique time indiacating verses and told us that Mahabharat actually happened on 16 th October 5561 BC with exact dates and proof of arriving at the date. This available on the net but to understand it you require knowledge of Indian astronomic terms which are from Vedic times and still in use very actively )
In Mahabharat also Saraswati is thought to be ceasing continuously. That means the reason because of which Saraswati river got affected and Satluj & Yamuna stopped of being it's tributory ( this is said on proofs and is not theory ) is much older phenomenon then Mahabharat. Also, Krishna was born in Mathura & spent childhood in Gokul which is on the banks of Yamuna. So, Yamuna diverting from Saraswati to Ganga is very older than Mahabharat itself.
Secondly, Mahabharat is some what urben type and many kingdoms mentioning saga. In it Ganga is prominent.
Indians say that Prayag ( Allahabad in U.P. state ) as Triveni Sangam ( confluence ) of Ganga, Yamuna & Saraswati rivers. `Saraswati is thought to be flowing underground & meeting here'. This is though a myth gives idea that Yamuna which was meeting Saraswati in the past , is now meeting Ganga and by underground of Saraswati mentions vanishing of Saraswati in Land area & thinking that it's going underground to meet sea ( which it was previously ).
This is combination of thought based on some real history.
Secondly, in dry Saraswati river area like Pushkar in Rajasthan or Sidhpur in North Gujarat there still small river named saraswati. In Sidhpur, there is also old temple after Saraswati. Both area are found to on dry river bed of ancient saraswati river. Indians seem to be remembering very ancient things very nicely. ONLY THEY FORGOT ARYAN INVASION OR MIGRATION THEORY. Really sad for Western so called scholars !
If any thing is required to defend that then write it pure logical manner.
The AIT theory was inspired by British political people to say about its legitimacy of its occupation of India,to get some answer of then found similarity between Sanskrit & other European languages and to facilitate Christian Missionery which were facing hard times to convert Hindu. This will be their agenda of `Divide & Rule' which Britishers used ( I don't have any bad feeling for current Brits ). The details are available on the net. India was the richest country in the world before Britishers rule on India ( like US is today ) and the current situation of poor Indians will give shock to those Western people who are not aware about where India lies geographically ( forget about their knowledge of India's past which is seen with the false fabrication & misrepresented stories). If you want to know about Britishers policy then just know that even though India was highest producer of Cotton crop but then also it was not allowed to make cloth on machine ( to make England rich ).Everything was to be imported from Briton and it was one major reason because of which Briton's economy was steaming ahead.
HOW WILL YOU REACT IF YOUR RULER BREAKS THE CHURCH AND CONSTRUCTS THE MOSQUE ON THE SAME SITE. FOR YOU SPAIN IS EXAMPLE. THE SAME IS WITH INDIA. WHEN IT WAS FOR SPAIN THEN IT IS CHERISHED CHRISTIAN REACTION BUT WHEN IT COMES TO INDIA THEN IT'S HINDU FASICSTS. WHY CHURCH IS RIGHT AND TEMPLE OF RAM ON HIS BIRTHPLACE IS WRONG ? For this even historical records speak that there was Ram Temple which Babar broke and made Mosque on it ( like thousands of beautiful temples were broken and that's why you find few temples before Muslim invasion. It's good that Angkor Wat is in Camodia & not in India ). If you have visited Qutab Minar in Delhi then that complex is made from previous Hindu & Jain temples there. Yes, India was so advanced that more than 1600 years old Iron Pillar is not rusted. To make such a long pillar now is also engineering problem or puzzle by Modern Iron makers. Read about it on the net and you will understand India had not only made advanced progress in other subjects but also in Chemistry, Metallurgy. You can say that for almost all subjects which Europeans says sign of culture, you can find lots of systematic written work. Sanskrit written work ( even after huge losts ) is much more than all combined work till 17 - 18 century. Even Indian dance & music has scientific & mathematical basis ( unlike Pop & Disco dance & music. But today's majority Indian youth find hard to understand the science behind Indian Music & Classical dances which not only gives pleasure to body but also mind. That's why they do not require any Heroin,Escatcy type drugs or alcohol to get temporary high which is very bad for youths in every way )
Indians are having very ancient traditions that the first civilization spunge up on Indian soil. It was concepulised by Vedic Rishis ( Sages ) who developed very high standards & virtues. For them Knowledge was very much sought after. This also made Ayurveda to develop. Still today their concepts are true. Ancient Indians have observed their land, sky, plants to that deep level that they were having better knowledge about human body better than few centuries before Europeans.
To go extreme deep in their knowledge about undestanding this world which led them to develop Ancient Indians to develop major treaties of science, maths , language, arts , music etc. Their systematic development was such that India was sought after by Non-Indian Students in ancient days for Knowledge to Columbus ( who left to search Indian sea route as land route was blocked by Turks by capturing Istambul ), Vasco-Da-Gama to Britishers for HUGE PROFIT etc.
`Femine of Bengal' in 19th century under British Rule which caused millions of people to die. But why this femine occured. It was not at all due to lack of rain. Bengal region ( current West Bangal + Bangladesh which is highly populated but very poor ) is such that it will alway receive very good rains ( If it does not rain in Bangal or Konkan then whole India will not get any rain - due to Monsoon winds mechanism ). Also , Bengal region is fully mouth area of Ganga & Bramhaputra rivers which will never have problem of water ). IT WAS DUE TO INDIGO CROPS THAT WAS TAKEN FOR SOME YEARS CONTINUOUSLY AS IT WAS FORCED BY THEN BRITISH RULERS WHICH WAS PROVIDING HUGE PROFIT TO THEM. But this Indigo crop which was only source of Blue colour before advent of Artificial Chemical Dyes should not be taken continuously from the same land as it extracts all fertile power of land. Due to this continuous Indigo crops , the land became non-productive for their staple Rice crop. Due to this Rice crop for some years could not happen and millions of Bengalis died. BUT THE WHOLE STORY IS NAMED AS `FEMINE OF BENGAL' AS IF THAT RICE CROP FAILED DUE TO LACK OF WATER. THIS IS SAME MISGUIDING LIKE `FIRE OF SAN FRANSISCO'. THE FIRE WAS DUE TO TERRIBLE EARTHQUAKE BUT IT WAS MISQUOTED AS DURING S.F. WAS PROSEPROUS CITY IN USA AND IF EARTHQUAKE GHOST WILL REMAIN IN OTHER US PEOPLE THEN IT WOULD BAD FOR SF'S ECONOMY.
THE SAME WAY `ARYAN INVASION THEORY' WAS FABRICATED TO MISGUIDE THE WORLD BY THEN THEIR `GOBBLE'S ' PROPOGANDA. The reasons are well adressed on the internet which I will not repeat again here.
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For some folks it is not enough to censor the main article in a one-sided manner, they also are busy deleting valid points raised on discussion pages! I think the only solution is that Indians (where English is also OFFICIAL language) need to open another English-wikipedia article on the AIT/MIT. Because the current page has only room for only one point of view and that is "western-centric" or "euriocentric" version.
:This page is for discussion of the content of the article, not for endless ranting and rambling. However, state what "valid points" have been deleted from this page. Paul B 18:14, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
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message: The section about the Michael Witzel attack on Rajaram is pov, because it claims that it was a fraud while this is disputed (e.g. ), and if the Witzel attack can be mentioned, it would be fair to also mention one of Witzel's mistakes (such as his mistranslation of a verse of the Baudhayana Shrauta Sutra. I'm however not adding it, because currently everything that is critical of Witzel will get deleted immediately. 
But either both should be allowed to be criticized, or the attack on Rajaram (which is not very notable) should be removed. --Machaon 15:26, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The whole section of Rajaram is of only very marginal relevance, so should be deleted. Anyone can discuss mistakes attributed to Witzel as long as they are fairly presented. Koenraad Elst, a writer saturated with Hindutva ideology, is anything but neutral. Paul B 21:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

text: None of the material above has any connection at all to AIT, nor is it especially new. When humans first migrated from Africa Europe was in the grip of the ice age, so homo sapiens initially remained in warmer southern regions, such as the Indian subcontinent. Arguments about postulated migrations of stone age hunter-gatherers in the paleolithic era do not have any relevance to arguments about postulated migrations 20.000 years later of chariot-riding Indo-Aryans in the late bronze age. Paul B 21:17, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

text: "Chariots can not be ridden in Mountain Passes of Hindukush" Really? And how is this relevant? The Indo-Aryans rode chariots. We all know that. Chariots are mentioned in the Rig-Veda, and repeatedly in later I-A literature. If you mean they didn't "invade" India in some sudden mass chariot-riding attack from Afghanistan, of course they didn't. No-one of any significance has ever claimed anything so silly. Straw man. There is no evidence of chariots in the IVC. Of course they did have wheels, as no-one denies. You are referring to some imaginative attempts to see spokes in portrayals of wheels. Nice to you repeating Frawley's "seventeen ribed" horse nonsense, a fantasy that has been debunked many times. There is no evidence for a distinction between seventeen ribbed and eighteen ribbed varieties of horse. Even if there were, I'm not sure why it would be relevant, unless you imagine that proponents of "invasion" believe that Aryans are supposed to have got on their chariots in Central Asia and then ridden straight into India without changing the horses. The so-called "fire altars" are also very questionable. Paul B 13:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

text: The distinction between AIT and AMT is largely imaginary. Most nineteenth century writers assumed a slow process of migration with sporadic conflicts. Muller envisaged a migration of farmers, as did Morris in 1888. There were also many quite varied timelines. The emphasis placed on chariots arose later, from theories about the origins of horse domestication. A military invasion model had a vogue at time when it was believed that the Indo-Aryans took advantage of the decline of the IVC to "fill the gap", but even then there was never any assumption of some blitzkrieg-like surprise attack. The horse thing is a fact. Look it up. Can you find a source other than one copied from Frawley  - preferably in literature on horse biology? The arguments about wheels don't have any relevance for the reason I gave. Just calling assertions "scientific" doesn't make them so. I don't know why you find it hard to believe that Indo-Aryan peoples could evolve intellectually sophisticated ideas over time. Many other ancient peoples did so too. I don't know you mean by "support for River Saraswati".  Paul B 17:33, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed text, sectnpov 

message: I dont think the Avesta mentioned Sapta Sindhu as their homeland. I'll have to read more about it for a better answer but I think it might have it was mentioned as a neighboring area. I might be wrong -[[Afghan Historian 21:52, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Avesta says nothing about Sapta Sindhu. WIN is repeating speculation by Koenraad Elst. AFIK, it doesn't mention Afghanistan either, but that became a traditional Zoroastrian interpretation of the locale. Paul B 01:55, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

text: What's to say? You don't even have the grace to acknowledge the fact that mainstream 19th C writers did not envisage any mass "invasion". "Sarasvati" is a name historically identified with rivers in Afghanistan and Iran. There is no direct evidence that the G-H river was ever called that, but of course it's possible, or that more than one river is meant. On a migrationist model, the timeline for the Vedic expansion into the Indus varies, and may or may not overlap with the drying up of the G-H, the date of which event is not known with any certainty. I don't know who "Afghan Historian" is, but his moniker is no more vague than "WIN". Paul B 07:12, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sapta Sindhu Argument