Talk:Joséphine de Beauharnais

message: Is the rose garden she built in the mansion really worth a mention in the intro. Is the rose garden planted in the white house by JFK mentioned in his intro. not only is it unsourced but it seems POV Magnificent etc.. I can see the need for a section further down (which i personally think should be trimmed as it's longer than the empress of the french section but i'm not going to touch it). any comments on this before i edit would be apprecieated  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Awnman (talk • contribs) 23:03, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Roses?

message: Question to Mowens35: On what do you base your claim that empress Josephine is ancestress of current house of Monaco and of Egon von F. ???I have seen much of your imaginary ideas to deluge truthful information here in Wikipedia - apparently motivated by so-called royal-romantics and sycophancy instead of factual correctness. 217.140.193.123 2 July 2005 09:17 (UTC)
::I base my information on published materials, which I strenuously work to cite. If, however, that information later deemed incorrect, I delete it. 'Nuff said.Mowens35 15:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The current Monagasque Royal house, and the Furstenbergs descend from Josephine's cousin Stephanie de Beauharnais (thtrough her grand-daughter Mary Victoria Hamilton), but not Josephine.  Indisciplined (talk) 00:01, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monaco and egon von Furstenberg 

message: Wow, this sort of soppy soap-operatic stuff seriously needs to be sourced or purged, probably the latter: 
: This could be due either to the fact that he lost them, or that she did not write very many. Whatever the case, his words were undoubtedly more full of passion. Joséphine, less in love than Napoleon, actually began an affair with high society playboy Hippolyte Charles in 1796. This so infuriated and hurt Napoleon that his deep, loyal love changed entirely.
--Saforrest 01:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just wait until I add the translation of a letter from Napoleon to Josephine about his wanting to "be inside you"!!! That one's quoted in Evangeline Bruce's book "The Improbable Marriage", which has the most amazing translations of his lusty letters to J. Mowens35 15:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soapy sentimentality 

message: rather POV, no? surely it was a plantation for a specific economic purpose (sugar, etc) which was cultivated by slaves, which is different than a "slave plantation" Mowens35 16:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sugar cane, I believe (though I'm not sure) but what became politically relevant was slaves, rather than a particular crop: Joséphine was firmly on the side of the planter aristocracy in terms of the slave rebellion in what became Haiti. - Jmabel | Talk 19:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes but Wiki is not to judge actions of the past through today's prism. It is enough to state the information as carefully as possible, hence "a sugar plantation worked by slaves" as opposed to a "slave plantation", which is not only factually incorrect but also redundant.Mowens35 15:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

text: That wording is fine with me, but this is not a matter of "today's prism". The question of slavery in the French Caribbean was a very lively issue during the years of the Revolution. The question of sugar? Not. - Jmabel | Talk 02:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

text: However, with subsequent changes this has gone too far the other way. There is now no mention of her coming from a slaveowning family. Again, in the context of Revolutionary France this was no small matter. - Jmabel | Talk 04:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

text: We seem to be back to what was agreed upon. - Jmabel | Talk 02:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slave plantation?? 

message: : uncommented removal of claim that she is ancestor of the royal house of Monaco (by an editor who is clearly not a vandal). Was it false? Or what? - Jmabel | Talk 00:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see. It was removed by the same person who added it, and someone had raised doubts on the talk page. Hey, folks, when you do stuff like this, could you please use edit summaries? - Jmabel | Talk 00:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monaco 

message: "first cousin once removed of Mahmud II, 27th Sultan of Turkey". Maybe. I have no idea. But presumably, if it's true, you didn't just happen to know it. Please provide a citation for this sort of thing. - Jmabel | Talk 02:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now removed. - Jmabel | Talk 19:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed it a couple of days ago, after reading a scholarly history of Josephine's first cousin, Aimée du Buc de Rivery, who is written of frequently as the mother of Mahmud II. Recent scholarly investigation has determined, beyond any doubt, that though she was a member of the Turkish royal harem, she was not Mahmud's mother.Mowens35 22:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Would people please '''cite'''? 

message: The anonymous "copy edit" recently was far more than that. I've restored a couple of things. Others may want to check.
I'm particularly surprised by the removal of the following: is there a factual problem with it? "The divorce took place on January 10, 1810, and was a grand but solemn ceremony for both lovers. It was the first under the Napoleonic Code." Other than the dubious phrase "for both lovers", this seems to me to be entirely relevant, if true. Is it not true? - Jmabel | Talk 05:41, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Odd removal 

message: In this article it is suggested that Josephine only had one affair during her marriage to Napoleon, but in the Napoleon article it is stated that both were known to have had many.  Which is it?
::According to numerous books, she had more than one affair during her marriage to Napoleon, particularly in the early years of their marriage.Mowens35 23:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I think it's been pretty much established that she was not very faithful to him early on. She seems to have become committed to him later in the marriage, though. Funnyhat 19:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction? 

message: Absurdly, Josephine, Marie Louise and Eugenie were included in the list of "Queen Consorts of France" (what in correct grammar ought to be called Queens-Consort, by-the-by...)
All three bore the title of Empress of the French and none was ever Queen of France, consort or otherwise. I have accordingly removed them from the list.
Tantris 20:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Josephine's Title

message: The article makes a passing reference to Josephine's "natural" daughter.  Generally this term is used in this way as a euphemism for "illegitimate", but there's no mention of such a child in the article and it seems staggeringly unlikely to me that she would have one.  If it refers to Hortense de Beauharnais, then the term is used incorrectly. --Jfruh (talk) 00:36, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Natural" daughter? 

message: the david painting of the coronation of napoleon does not show him coronating josephine. rather, it depicts him coronating *himself* as the catholic clergy looks on. napoleon did so to show the sovereignty and authority of the french state -- above that of the vatican. but a more simple proof can be offered: josephine is already wearing a crown in the painting. i am changing the caption accordingly.
The coronation painting is of napoleon crowning josephine, not of him crowning himself.  The fact that josehine is already wearing a crown does not mean that napoleon is crowning himself.  After all, napoleon's mother is in the full painting, yet she wasn't actually at the ceremony.  -roxie11
=Great-grandfather=I have read in many bios that her maternal great-grandfather George Browne was Irish; yet in the article he is listed as English.Could he possibly have been Anglo-Irish?jeanne (talk) 15:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: david painting mis-captioned

message: The famous last words of Napoléon I where made up by Charles Tristan de Montholon.  He has turned out to be a frequent liar.  Napoléon died at about the time of sunset after being unconscious for at least 14 hours.  At the time the famous last words was said to have been uttered no-one else could hear any words.  They heard a sound coming from his moth but it was more like a music instrument than a human voice.  Today it is thought to have been due to gases from an over-pressurised stomach escaping though his throat.  Consequentially, there was no intention behind it.  Most likely the last thing he said before he died was:
“Give me my chamber-pot.”
It may not have been very polite but that was what he said.  His last words must have been uttered I French since all the three or four men who nursed him where French-spoken.  They where his favourite personal servant Louis Joseph Marchand, Charles Tristan de Montholon and Henri Gratien Bertrand.  The possible forth person was Étienne “Ali” Saint-Dennis who was also a personal servant.  Napoléon had a third personal servant named Jean Abram Noverraz.  During the last six weeks he could not nurse Napoléon since he was ill himself.  He barely recovered enough in time to bid farewell to his dying ruler.  By then Napoléon was already unconscious.
2008-05-23  Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.233.151.44 (talk) 11:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here we go again. The relentless witch from Märsta, Sweden desecrating yet once more the great Napoléon. Her comments and totally negative influence on all of the Wiki pages dealing with Napoléon is an unbearable plague. Self-proclaimed expert, she makes historically fallacious claims solely motivated by some inexplicably vapid rancor towards the Bonaparte family. Having read a couple of vulgarization books recommended by Oprah's Club is vastly insufficient to claim expertise. Your  deeds are those of an aging homely wretch, afraid of the crowds, confined to an unsanitary loghouse lost remotely in the cold nordic deserts of an ever so sad country. Enough with you already, Miss Synnerholm. Go plague another site. Your obdurate, opinionated, and crooked claims sully the memory of the Emperor of the French in the most unwelcome way. Be sure to keep your ugly nose inside your room this winter. Weasel trappers may be lurking in your area. Greetings to the royal family of whom you remain a subject, and whom benefited largely from Napoléon's grandeur. The Bernadottes were no more than empty-handed peasants covered in louse when Napoléon ordered them out of France, after having offered them a few acres of ice and snow in a distant glacial land called Suède. Do not forget who gave you your kings.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.58.144.199 (talk) 17:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misquote 

message: The article claims that Empress Joséphine was given the title Countess of Navarre after the annulment of her marriage. Can someone verify this claim? Surtsicna (talk) 15:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Countess of Navarre 

message: ::Was her maternal great-grandfather Anthony Brown actually English, as the article states, or Irish as many of her biographers have asserted?--jeanne (talk) 11:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've also read that Anthony Brown (also spelled Browne) was born to Irish parents from Galway. Since no one has found evidence that he was indeed English and not Irish as stated everywhere else, I will change it. According to this source (fr), his parents could be George Browne, (4th) baronet of Caversham, and Gertrude Morley, however it was never proven.--EDT95 (talk) 22:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Irish great-grandfather?

message: We don't know why Joséphine could not have any child with Napoléon.  But could falling from a balcony really cause the onset of menopause in a 35-year-old woman?  I don't understand how.
2009-03-11  Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.247.167.70 (talk) 13:29, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you, that the idea of a fall triggering menopause is ludicrous. There were , however, rumours that Josephine had an affair with a Scots captain, while in Martinique visiting her family, and this resulted in the birth of a daughter. This last birth was said to have rendered her sterile. Indeed a girl did arrive in Paris from Martinique many years later, on whom Josephine lavished much affection and money. Who knows? Frania, any opinions on this mysterious girl?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:31, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As usual, the Anglos make more of a fromage (= big deal) of Joséphine's *sterility* than the Frenchies do.  First point, let's clarify something:  since she had had two children, she was not sterile, she  had only reached a stage in her life when, for whatever reason, she could not bear children anymore.  Second point, one has to look at the period in which she lived when it was common for women to die in childbirth, and when having one or several miscarriages could cause a woman to become infertile.  Add to those the type of life Joséphine led:  after her separation from her first husband, she had quite a few lovers, supposedly/probably a few miscarriages (from which, at the time, few women escaped with their life and, when they did, were left estropiées à vie), then her life in Paris during the French Revolution with her imprisonment at the time of Terror, when she came to a hair of having her head removed on the échafaud... followed by a life of a rather promiscuous woman...  quite a few reasonable causes for becoming infertile.  My personal opinion on the cause of her inability of giving an heir to Napoléon was a miscarriage.  And that is MY personal opinion.  Frania W. (talk) 17:57, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

text: She could have become infertile as a result of an infection of the fallopian tubes, which to this day can cause infertility in a woman if it goes untreated. This is possible since she was a trifle promiscuous after her separation from Alexandre.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:18, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever the reason, almost two hundred years after her death, it is difficult to say what the causes were.  And does it matter anymore?  She was a lovely woman & can be dearly remembered, if for no other reason than her love of roses & the garden she created at La Malmaison.  Frania W. (talk) 20:32, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

text: I agree. It must be noted that the King of Sweden is Joséphine's direct descendant through her son Eugéne. She has many descendants through Horténse as well.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:00, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Whatever the reason was (two hundred years ago) that kept Joséphine from bearing an heir to monsieur Napoléon l'empereur des Français, is not for us to try to guess.  The reason could be this or it could be that.  Like for many women who lived traumatic events & went thru the horror of almost losing their head during the French Revolution, other reasons beside STDs could have caused her inability to bear any more children.  And now that the woman has been dead for almost two hundred years, let's leave her soul in peace.  Frania W. (talk) 20:04, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Frania; besides this is not the page to discuss STDs such as Chlamydia nor to pass moral judgements on deceased people's sexual conduct. Joséphine has many royal descendants alive today, the fact that she had no children by Napoleon is not really relevant to her place in French history.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:39, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Speculation on cause of sterility? 

message: This title is silly.  The Bonapartes tribe were not an ancient royal dynasty where normal royal naming rules work.  They were just a minor Corsican noble family, and surnames for them should be treated like surnames for anybody else.  This article should be at Joséphine Bonaparte, in the same way that we have, say [[Dolley Madison] rather than Dolley Todd. john k (talk) 14:20, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Stupidly or not, she is commonly called Joséphine de Beauharnais, isn't she? A woman, like all other biographical entrants, should be referred to by her most common name, and that would not necessarily involve using her husband's surname. Surtsicna (talk) 14:49, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and her most common name is Josephine Bonaparte. john k (talk) 19:34, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

text: Not to mention that, of course, her article is currently at her (first) husband's surname.  Her maiden name ("Tascher de la Pagerie") is certainly not her most common name. john k (talk) 19:35, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Surtsicna. She is known to history as Josephine de Beauharnais, never Bonaparte.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 22:22, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Pish-posh, the article also says she "adopted" the name "Joséphine" at Napoleon's request. Shows what they know- Sadsaque (talk) 04:25, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: A portrait of Josèphine with a low degree of beautification is here.  At the very least she could have looked like this since every single trait can be found among people alive today.  The painting is too old to have any copyright.  If it originally had any it has long expired by now.
2010-12-29  Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.114.153.12 (talk) 13:23, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have seen this portrait before. If you wish to add it to the article, go ahead. Due to its age, the work is in the Public Domain.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:58, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portrait 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Joséphine de Beauharnais. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090827150407/http://www.calva.asso.fr:80/users/al1863/hcharles.htm to http://www.calva.asso.fr/users/al1863/hcharles.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 17:48, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Her two children by Beauharnais became significant to royal lineage.
: – Translation? Sca (talk) 20:45, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Huh?

message: The use of the acute accent (French: l'accent aigu) in the spelling of "Joséphine" is inconsistent in this article. I've fixed a couple of instances and may be able to correct the rest in the next few days. Matuko (talk) 06:15, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accent Aigu 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: moved per request.  Favonian (talk) 18:22, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Empress Joséphine →  – The only definitive guideline provided by WP:CONSORTS is that "The titles "Queen" and "Empress" are generally not included in article titles for deceased consorts". The only supporter of the RM which moved the page to this title cited the example of Queen Victoria as permitting the use of "Queen" or "Empress" in an article title, which is an inaccurate comparison as Victoria was a sovereign Queen, Joséphine merely the first consort of Napoleon. Furthermore, their marriage was annulled so she didn't even die Empress. Napoleon's second wife (and widow) has no reference to her status as Empress in the title, so neither should Joséphine. Estar8806 (talk) 18:02, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  As a rule, we don't include the consort titles in article titles.  The cases above are exceptions - consort titles were added to disambiguate them from other other women also known as "Margaret of France" and "Joan of Navarre" (there's a whole bunch of both).  There's no other "Josephine de Beauharnais", which would necessitate disambiguation. Walrasiad (talk) 00:05, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 18 February 2023