Talk:Records of members of the Oireachtas

message: What exactly is the point of the unionist table for the all time shortest serving TDs? These people were elected to the House of Commons of Northern Ireland (HCNI), they did not sit in the 2nd Dail. They were technically eligible to sit in the Dail but did not do so, they sat in the body that they were elected to. How can they be classed as shortest serving TDs if they never sat in the Dail? As far as I see it, we have a table saying that this is a list of people elected to HCNI but had they chosen to sit in a different (extra legal) assembly to which they were NOT elected then they would have been among the shortest serving members of it. That's just bizzare! I propose to remove this table. Snappy (talk) 15:26, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I object. Kieran Doherty never sat in the Dáil and did not recognise its legitimacy, yet he is listed.  Just as Constance Markievicz is semi-recognised as the first woman MP, so the Unionists were TDs.  Their names were called on the roll: "Co. an Doire (thuaidh); Dr. H. Anderson; as láthair" etc. Segregating them in a separate footnote table is sufficient recognition of their different status. (BTW most in the table were elected to Westminster, not Stormont.) jnestorius(talk) 16:05, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The Unionists (Anderson, McCalmont & Samuels) were elected to the House of Commons of the UK and sat in it, Twadell was elected to the House of Commons of NI and sat in it. Markievicz was elected to the Westminster (as were all SF members of the First Dail) but choose not to attend. Doherty was in prison and on terminal hunger strike, so it would have been hard for him to attend but he stood for election to the Dail and was elected to the Dail, which was in 1981 not the Irish Republic Dail. Roll call aside (and who expected them to turn up?), and the roll call for the 2nd Dail doesn't mention any NI politicians . My question remains, how can you be classed as a member of a body that you were NOT elected to, DID NOT recognise and DID NOT attend? Snappy (talk) 16:45, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: They were elected to the Dáil, whether they wanted to be or not. Everyone was elected to both Dáil and Commons, and sat in one but not the other. jnestorius(talk) 17:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the best answer, you can come up with? "They were elected to the Dáil...". I still don't understand how one came be regarded as a member of a body, when one does not recognise it, does not stand for it, is not elected to it, and does not attend it. In Members of the 1st Dáil and Members of the 2nd Dáil, the non attendees of the Dáil are listed as Other MPs, which is correct. They were elected as MPs to Westminster / Stormont and did not attend a new assembly in Dublin. If these politicians are TDs are you claim, then how come none of them are in the Members of the 1st/2nd Dáil categories? Snappy (talk) 20:30, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Tu quoque! The not recognising and not attending are irrelevant, as they apply equally to Markiewicz at Westminster and Doherty in 1981. It's wrong to suggest the only reason Doherty did not attend was his imprisonment; all Sinn Féin TDs 1922–86 were abstentionists. So that leaves the question of whether they were in fact elected to the Dáil. I have offered as evidence that they were included on the roll; you have offered no evidence to the contrary. I can offer another piece of evidence: they are listed in the Oireachtas Members' Database.  I won't assert dogmatically that they were or were not TDs; I merely argue that one can plausibly argue either way. There is no definitive answer to the question; it is a matter of interpretation. That is why a separate table is appropriate, where the disputedness can be highlighted with some introductory text.   That is what has been done in Members of the 1st Dáil and Members of the 2nd  Dáil; I suggest the same policy should apply here. Those like you who disregard them can simply ignore the table, as you can ignore the analogous tables in the other lists. OTOH, Categories are all-or-nothing, with no possibility for hedging the inclusion or exclusion of an article from the category, as WP:CLS#Disadvantages of categories says. (If there were a subcategory "Unionists eligible for the First Dáil" or the like, that would be appropriate.) jnestorius(talk) 07:55, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You are incorrect to compare Markiewicz and all other SF members of the First Dáil with those in your table. The SF members stood in an election to Westminster, then attended the Mansion House. The politicians in your table also stood for Westminster and sat in it. One  can't be a member of a body you don't recognise simply because other people say you are. Basically, you are saying that a group of people in Dublin decided that everyone who was elected as an MP in Ireland in 1918 was elected to the Dáil, whether they liked it or not. People define themselves, they are not defined by other peoples views. Someone can call me a monkey, but it doesn't make me one! Furthermore, none of the NI MPs who were elected to Stormont in 1921, are listed as members of the 2nd Dáil, probably because they were elected to the new Northern Ireland Parliament which they sat in, not to the 2nd Dáil. Snappy (talk) 13:03, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand the point you keep making. It's a reasonable stance to take. But the Oireachtas members database takes a somewhat different stance. I have no opinion on the theological nub of the issue, but I don't see why your view should take precedence over an external source widely referenced in Wikipedia. jnestorius(talk) 13:33, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if you're going to use Oireachtas members database as the standard, the table could go back in but without Twadell as he is not listed in there. Snappy (talk) 13:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. jnestorius(talk) 15:02, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've re-instated the table sans Twadell. Snappy (talk) 15:26, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  All time shortest TDs 

message: Why is Gerry Adams not mentioned in the list of 'Members of both the British Parliament and of the Oireachtas'? Because of their abstentionist policy?----Bancki (talk) 19:24, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it is. Also there were many more abstentionist TDs/MPs in the 1920s not listed. Snappy (talk) 18:16, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Gerry Adams in list 'Members of both the British Parliament and of the Oireachtas'

message: If there is a list of 'Members of both the British Parliament and of the Oireachtas', why not a list of 'Members of both the Northern Ireland Parliament / Aseembly and of the Oireachtas'? I have two examples, are there many others?
:Austin Currie: MPNI 1962-72 (SDLP, East Tyrone); TD 1989-2002 (FG, Dublin West)
:Gerry Adams: MLA(NI) 1998-2010 (SF, Belfast West); TD 2011-incumbent (SF, Louth)
----Bancki (talk) 19:24, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Members of both the Northern Ireland Parliament and of the Oireachtas

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Jim McDaid was never appointed Minister for Defence (Ireland) and, therefore, should not be included on this list. Contemporary newspaper reports are quite clear on this, as was McDaid himself, who on 13 November 1991 referred to his "proposed appointment" in Dáil Éireann.. He also stated on the record that he "requested the Taoiseach to withdraw my nomination to the office". Newspaper reports from the time referred to him as "Minister for Defence designate" for ten hours (Irish Independent, 14 November 1991). As a result of the controversy concerning McDaid, Charles Haughey, as taoiseach, stated to the Dáil: "I wish to request leave of the House to withdraw the motion concerning nomination of Members of the Government which I moved today."
McDaid's Dáil record makes no mention of him every serving as defence minister.
User:Spleodrach insists that McDaid was a minister, using a reference from a newspaper published 29 years after the events in question.Damac (talk) 12:44, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shortest-serving cabinet ministers (in same office) 

message: In the Ethnic minorities subsection, it lists Pádraig Mac Lochlainn as the first Traveller in the Oireachtas. However, as noted in references of Eileen Flynn (politician), while Mac Lochlainn's mother was a Traveller, he himself (according to Flynn) does not identified as a Traveller as he was raised as a settled person and he was not involved directly in the Travelling community. CeltBrowne (talk) 20:10, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I have updated the relevant section. Mac Lochlainn is still the first of Traveller descent. Spleodrach (talk) 18:06, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  First Traveller in the Oireachtas