Talk:Lower Manhattan

message: While I agree  that Lower Manhattan is bounded on the north by Canal st, I would argue that downtown and lower Manhattan are far from "roughly synonymous."  Anything below 14th St. is downtown, according to most people.  Soho and Greenwhich village are indisputably downtown, yet they are above Canal St. The opening to the Houston Street article, for example, states that it is a "thoroughfare in downtown New York City."  Houston Street is well north of Lower Manhattan, but the fact that it is located downtown is hardly debatable.  
However, rather than sully the current article with my original research, I suggest that we find a source claiming that downtown and Lower Manhattan are the same thing.  Failing that, we should make the distinction between Lower Manhattan and the much larger "downtown" area clear.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 16:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your arguments sound reasonable, while the way things were worded seemed questionable.  I have tried to fix up the wording, and can try to find sources to add.  If it's still not right, feel free to re-add the disputed tag and bring up further concerns. --Aude (talk) 18:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Northern boundary of downtown Manhattan

message: This is just anecdotal from a non-registered Wikipedia reader, but growing up in New York City my entire life, the following things were always true:
"Uptown" and "Downtown" are *directions*, not *places*.
You can take a train uptown (north), you can walk downtown (south), you can take a taxi crosstown (east/west), etc.
"Lower Manhattan", "Midtown Manhattan", and "Upper Manhattan" are *places*.
"Downtown Manhattan" always has a strange ring to it, like of a tourist who doesn't exactly get the local lingo correct.
Lower Manhattan = approximately includes the Financial District, TriBeCa, Battery Park City, City Hall, The Lower East Side, etc.
Midtown Manhattan = approximately Rockefeller Center, Times Square, Herald Sqaure, etc.
Upper Manhattan = approximately Harlem and everything north.
You'll notice there are some gaps like Greenwich Village, The Upper West & East Sides, Alphabet City, etc. That's because the only people who would divide Manhattan exactly in 3 would be the AAA NYC Metro road map people.
If a visitor from out-of-town asked to see "Downtown New York" or "Downtown Manhattan", they'd be immediately informed that there are two downtown-like areas: Lower Manhattan & Midtown and the differences would be explained. (WTC vs. Empire State Bldg, Financial District vs. Theater District, Battery Park vs. Bryant Park, etc.)
--Alan from Brooklyn
:Seems like the sort of thing that can be clarified by referencing material in the article.  Will see what I can find. --Aude (talk) 18:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is all horse shit. As I said on the (for some reason) defunct redirect page: "Downtown = 14/23 to Canal/Chambers. Broadest definitions. This redirect is bullshit, and is erasing the origin of most 20th century American art/music/etc. I think I've objected before, in fact, but I don't know where that went. Lower Manhattan and Downtown Manhattan are, at best, polar opposites, especially in the most vital period of both." Anyone who uses "downtown" to refer to the Financial District etc is just a moron, a philistine, or a banker. --Tothebarricades 07:52, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: No such place as "downtown Manhattan"

message: For a long time Lower Manhattan was viewed as the third biggest CBD in the USA and until recent it was changed to fourth after Washington DC!!does that make sense or not?isnt Midtown the largest,then the loop, and then LManhattanEdwinCasadoBaez 23:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Still says 3rd largest for Wash DC. Which is 3rd?? 96.234.201.213 (talk) 06:06, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Fourth largest Central Business District???

message: This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 05:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: What does the bar top image bring to this article?MickMacNee (talk) 16:26, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it shows that people actually live and go out in this city.  Because it shows nightlife, at what is a very well-known establishment.  Because not every photo has to be outdoors of a monument or a building, but can actually show the life that happens in the city.  --David Shankbone 16:27, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As elsewhere, relevance to the article title? WP is an encyclopoedia, not a photo album. MickMacNee (talk) 16:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Really?!  It's not a photo album?!  Nobody told me.  Relevance is Hogs & Heifers is a well-known establishment in the Meatpacking District which is located in Lower Manhattan.  --David Shankbone 16:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The establishment has no article. Why is it notable? Why is this photo a defining aspect of this article, which is about a district, not a bar. MickMacNee (talk) 17:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Believe it or not, not everything notable has a Wikipedia article. Because it is a well-known popular bar, known for bar-top dancing. Image is perfect for this and Meatpacking District.  It's good to show a the life of the places, and not just the tar and concrete. --David Shankbone 17:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Then create an article for the well known bar, don't use this article as an excuse to include a non-relevant image. MickMacNee (talk) 17:13, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm, sorry, but are you giving me orders?  If you don't like the photo raise an RFC, but your haughty, "Answer me now" tone is unappreciated.  --David Shankbone 17:17, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The 'tone' as you put it is in response to objecting to an image deletion. MickMacNee (talk) 18:01, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I am entitiled to boldly make any changes I see fit if it is not against obvious stated consensus, which in this case there is not. I do not have to be part of any project before I am allowed to edit. MickMacNee (talk) 18:23, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I didn't like the mass image deletions done by User:DCGeist User:David Shankbone in this edit, but he never responded to my request to discuss such a major change of images here first. It's attitudes like that which are not appreciated by other editors. — Loadmaster (talk) 19:22, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Loadmaster, you really need to be more thoughtful when you're complaining about other Wikipedians' edits. This is at least the second time you've charged me with committing a "mass image deletion." Please look at the diff you've provided: David Shankbone is who made the edit you have a problem with. Don't complain about "attitudes" when you can't even be bothered to direct your accusations accurately. I await your apology.—DCGeist (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I apologize. And I thank you for restoring the night image . — Loadmaster (talk) 17:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand where you are coming from--trust me--but the images on this page didn't show Lower Manhattan, but poor-quality images of skyskrapers and the WTC.  The page needed a major face life, and per WP:BOLD the only way it would happen is to do a mass image change, and then work out the particulars in the aftermath of what should stay, and what shouldn't.  Often pages aren't as bad as this one had become--no slight to your particular photo--but it really needed some work.  It was kind of depressing to look at.  And the night photo was restored :-)  --David Shankbone 17:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Useful image restored. Nightlife is one of the primary and characteristic activities in Lower Manhattan; an image illustrating that fact is perfectly appropriate to an article on the area. Mick, this sort of personal comment is unnecessary and uncivil: "Don't use this article as an excuse to include a non-relevant image."—DCGeist (talk) 19:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What absolute rubbish, an image of bar-top dancing offers nothing towards the definition of Lower Manhatton. It is superfluous at best. MickMacNee (talk) 19:15, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Absolute rubbish." Hmm. Mick, you should know that you're practically asking not to be taken seriously anymore.—DCGeist (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be your personal opinion; once you have a good reason to include this image in this article, let me know. Anything else is irrelevant. MickMacNee (talk) 20:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I see from your contributions elsewhere that you are unfamiliar with the neighborhood and its characteristic activities; you have also demonstrated no interest in adequately informing yourself. Your ability to judge the image's relevance is minimal at best. Your manner of communication here (unprovoked personal attacks, "absolute rubbish") and elsewhere ("absolute crap") merely confirms your inability to contribute productively to a discussion of this topic. Despite your misleading plaint, several good reasons have been provided for the image's inclusion in the article. While the image is by no means perfect, on balance it does add to the informational value of the article. See you in the funnies, Mickster.—DCGeist (talk) 20:37, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What have you added with the above statement bar your obvious opinion that artticle content decisions are your perogative? When you say something that actually adds to the case for including this image, let me know, otherwise, just assume people already know what you think. There are absolutely not several good reasons for the images inclusion thus far. MickMacNee (talk) 20:45, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

text: It's a crappy image, in my opinion, but that's not enough reason to exclude it. Irrelevance to the article text is a better reason. And simple logic says that you need to get some consensus among editors to include an image in an article, not to exclude one. — Loadmaster (talk) 19:22, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Dubious Image use

message: Hi, Fat Man. This question is actually specifically addressed and sourced in the article. Please take a look at this link NYC Basics from NYCvisit.com, the website of the city's official tourism marketing organization. It seems that not only does everybody have a somewhat different definition of lower/downtown Manhattan, but many of our individual definitions vary according to context. Aside from the quasi-official source I've linked to, it's my personal impression that the Meatpacking District certainly is included in many people's definitions of lower Manhattan. Best, Dan.—DCGeist (talk) 00:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Fat Man.  I'm not officially "back", but what DCGEist wrote is true.  For instance, since I have lived in Manhattan (seven years) below 14th Street has been the common line.  So, the West Village, East Village, Tribeca, NoHo, SoHo, Chinatown, Wall Street.  All of that is "Downtown", or Lower Manhattan.  South of Canal is popularly known because of 9/11, and because that was the line of demarcation for obtaining rental subsidies for areas affected by the terrorist attack around the WTC .  But almost everybody would say the East Village and Alphabet City are "Downtown" and not "Midtown".  But this is one of those cases of: everyone is right.  But you'll also find some old-timers who demand 'downtown' always meant one thing.  Or that that we should always call it the Pam Am Building or the AT&T Building.  --David Shankbone 01:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Defining Lower Manhattan 

message: Even after the additional commments from Mstuczynski and Sylvain1972, the consensus to remove this image is 
 6 to 4 against. I have counted the actions of named users only, the IPs are 1 apiece, and have not contributed anywhere before or since. Additionaly, one editor doubts the image's use as it fixes one POV of the defining area of article itself . Following an explanation of the consensus at the 4 to 2 (DCGeist and uploader) stage on the talk page, DCGeist re-included the image a further 9 times, with edit summaries such as yet another editor not fluent in the English language, in line with his ownership of this article in general, and has continued reverting since, including three times in one day, when it was not being done by a single purpose IP editor. I won't be reverting anymore, as I am now in fear of further bans for trying to reflect the basic facts above and edit accordingly, including opening the first discussion on talk, against 'valued contributor' DCGeist, however these facts clearly needed restating for others here, in my opinion.
Further, the article still contains no text to assert the relevance of this particular image for illustrating the article content, and re. songs, I don't think the writer of the 1964 hit Downtown had bar top dancing and brasier montages in mind at the time of writing. The relevance to the article is general and/or not encyclopoedic at best, and sets an odd precedent for general illustration of any article regarding any geographical area with a nightlife. MickMacNee (talk) 17:59, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Downtown Manhattan in fact had its own article, before it was subsumed by this one. Therefore, it was decided that this article would cover that ground. Hogs n' Heifers, which is below 14th St., is certainly "downtown." In fact, the 1964 hit does make reference to dancing, and likewise the sentiment of Neil Young's 1995 single "Downtown," with its chorus "Downtown, Let's go downtown, Let's have a party, Downtown all right," is well-illustrated by the picture as well. I am now adding text to put this in context. Sylvain1972 18:42, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sylvain, I am confused as to how you are signing your comments. Are you not typing in 4 ~'s?Gwynand (talk) 18:51, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Four ~, that's what I do. Sylvain1972 13:41, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Like MickMacNee, I've given up on the image. All I can say is that I'm not opposed to the article having an image reflecting the downtown clubbing nightlife of Manhattan, but I would prefer that a better image be used for that purpose. Speaking as a photographer, the image in question is, as I've said before, rather poor. If the subject of the image is indeed "table dancing" as the tagline states, then the table dancer should be the prominent feature in the picture, but it's obviously not. Surely there are better images representative of table dancing or the nightclub scene that could be used instead. — Loadmaster (talk) 23:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the added song related text has absolutely nothing at all to do with the image, and frankly degrades the article a little bit, per all the previous deletions of 'x in popular culture' listcruft. MickMacNee (talk) 00:27, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  id like to chime in here to say that to anyone with sense its clearly not a great picture generally speaking, and as far as the wiki is concerned its completely unprofessional and out of place, typical of many user created images that painfully detract from wikipedia (you know, like the ones of some guys wifes boobs on the "bra" and "breast" articles) the fact is, a more generic picture of a club or bar downtown would be perfect to illustrate the night life, but this picture is an abomination BBnet3000 (talk) 18:41, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Dubious image part 4

message: Adam.J.W.C. keeps removing image LowerManhattan0703.jpg, so I'm giving up trying to include it in the article, and just leave a link to it here on this talk page. — Loadmaster (talk) 20:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed that image because there is another image just below it that is of better quality and shows the entire area quite clearly, it also happens to be a FP, you can see everything. If that picture wasn't there I would have left it. Even though yours was a night photo the features were a bit small and a bit dark. There were to many pictures overcrowding the article as well. If you live in the area why don't you go out there and try again. If it were me I would if I thought it was that important.         Adam (talk) 22:57, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I don't live anywhere near Manhattan. I took the picture on a business trip. It lacks detail because it was foggy that night. And it appears to be the only night scene of Manhattan, which seemed to perfectly fit the text in the article about Gotham City. — Loadmaster (talk) 19:30, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image: Manhattan skyline at night 

message: There are arguments about Downtown New York. Some people think Downtown New York is Lower Manhattan(Financial District etc...) but people who say that are either from Manhattan or aren't from New York. Most people consider Downtown New York as Downtown Brooklyn. I would change this page to Downtown Brooklyn(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Brooklyn) and put this as a secondary page.166.82.187.246 (talk) 21:46, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Downtown Manhattan? 

message: I'm going to switch the fp to the second picture, because I think that it more accurately represents contemporary, post-Reconstructionist Lower Manhattan. --Laurelpeter122 (talk) 21:22, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image switch 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 8 external links on Lower Manhattan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080925045133/http://www.usnews.com/usnews/documents/docpages/document_page11.htm to http://www.usnews.com/usnews/documents/docpages/document_page11.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140327112731/http://www.world-exchanges.org/files/2013_WFE_Market_Highlights.pdf to http://www.world-exchanges.org/files/2013_WFE_Market_Highlights.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090218213649/http://corp.aol.com/about-aol/company-overview to http://corp.aol.com/about-aol/company-overview
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130512220254/http://www.emblemhealth.com/pdf/eh_lg_app.pdf to http://www.emblemhealth.com/pdf/eh_lg_app.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140726130322/http://prnewswire.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=29545 to http://prnewswire.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=29545
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.cantor.com/locations.htm
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.flyush.com/contact.shtml
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://panynj.gov/abframe.HTM
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:00, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Lower Manhattan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://swap.stanford.edu/20081229214923/http://www.gothamcenter.org/features/timeline/ to http://www.gothamcenter.org/features/timeline/
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.northjersey.com/news/2012_Presidential_Election/Obama_inaugural_speech_references_Stonewall_riots.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141020080917/http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20120111/downtown/downtown-baby-boom-sees-12-percent-increase-births to http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20120111/downtown/downtown-baby-boom-sees-12-percent-increase-births
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20170818011902/https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20161013/financial-district/downtown-manhattan-demographics-night-scene to https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20161013/financial-district/downtown-manhattan-demographics-night-scene
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110829055350/http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/contact.html to http://nielsen.com/us/en/contact.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:08, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Lower Manhattan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071120030226/http://www.timeout.com/newyork/file/visitor-info/listings.downtown.html to http://www.timeout.com/newyork/file/visitor-info/listings.downtown.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060717005233/http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?&aid=57528&search_result=1&stid=8 to http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?&aid=57528&search_result=1&stid=8
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 16:43, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
* 
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:21, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:06, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: A 183 MP panorama taken from Governors Island. Suitable for the infobox/elsewhere? — Rhododendrites talk \\ 13:13, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  new image 

message: Elsewhere on Wiki Wash DC is purported to have the 3rd largest CBD in the U.S.  We can’t have two 3rd largest. 96.234.201.213 (talk) 06:05, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible error. 3rd or 4th largest central business district?