Talk:Floyd Landis/Archive 1

message: *Request to put this excellent material on drug testing and the entire topic of statistical testing in general in a new article that discuisses the false positives and negatives and why we use inexpensive testes (i.e. because with a low enuf cost, we call apply ito to millions as in the SAT we give to high schoolers) and the limits iof massive testring.  The SAT and otter scholastic tests are good tools to identify really smart people, i.e. 99+ percentile folks cannot do so unless they are smart.  But "Failing" the SAT does not mean you are dumb.  And the scores in between mean someting else althoghether and have validiity if we also know more about the student.  Likewise testing of urine and blood for presence of diseases and doping. Bona Fides 14:35, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal: New article on drug testing and reliability of test results

message: *I think that larger parts of this article needs to be rewritten, as it does not follow the guidelines given in WP:NPOVD. The article is quite clearly biased, especially the description of his performance in Tour de France 2006 is written as a pure tribute, suitable on a fan page, but clearly inappropriate here. --Denvesletigeren 16:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *I agree, go ahead if you can improve it. Socafan 22:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: *I agree - the writing is sub par. Hu Gadarn 20:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request: Neutral point of view...

message: *Can somebody fix some of the terminology as to appeal more for the layman/non-cyclists.  I stumbled upon this: "Landis often pushed the pace in the mountains to break the pack before Armstrong made his final move" and do not know what "pushed the pace" and "break the pack" means.  Thanks! --71.110.43.46 18:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *"Push the pace" means to set a higher pace or speed. This, I think, is a phrase not limited to or specific  to cycling. If you push the pace high enough, you can "break the pack", in other words causing the pack (or peleton) to break up into a number of small groups or individual riders as riders no longer were able to keep up. --69.29.98.223 20:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Well, it's not hard to look it up and I did so.  My point is that there are terms and phrases present that not every non-cyclist knows about - "break the pack" is one of them. "Break up the pack into smaller groups or individual riders" would be more understandable to the layman IMO. 71.110.13.166 19:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion: Terminology and wordage

message: *The article stated "Should the follow-up testing confirm the result, Landis would be the second winner of the Tour de France to lose his yellow jersey" but gave no hint of who the first was, and the Tour de France article doesn't mention such a stripped title, nor can I find any other indication of a previous incident; OTOH, I found one article through google that said there was no previous incident.  So, I changed "second" to "first".  If someone has contrary information, they can put it in the article, with the obvious requirement of naming the rider and year and providing a citation. --Jibal 09:52, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Maurice Garin was stripped of the title in the 1904 race for hitching a ride on a train.  --Feyer 14:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

text: *He is the first to be stripped because of doping, but the second to be stripped in general. IIRC, the reference to 1904 was cited in the history when the change was made from first to second. --OliverH 09:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion: ''Second'' winner to be stripped of yellow jersey?

message: *Alright there's some stuff TV told me when I happened to tune in on an interview: The regular T/E ratio is exactly 1:1, and varies very little. In exceptional occasions, due to natural causes, the rate can elevate to up to 2:1. The limit for doping is the (very generous) figure of 4:1. Landis' figure was 11:1 ... At this time, no cyclist sports representatives really doubt he would have cheated. A former professional cyclist suggested that pretty much every last one of the cyclists would be doped to the gills, (a statement for which he has received death threats) otherwise they simply don't have a chance against the other dopers. 84.75.130.173 18:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *On the other hand, that could also be sour apples, or his own justification for doping. To add this to the article, though, we actually need sources. 69.59.212.172 18:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: *You may think that, but that doesn't make it right. This link is in German, but you will well be able to understand the graphs and the numbers and list yourself as de-2 anyway. The bottommost figure contrasts a typical negative example with a typical positive example. The positive example has a ratio of 14.5:1. This is a page at the biochemistry institute at the German Sports University in Cologne. The Institute is an IOC approve lab for doping analytics. --OliverH 20:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Testosterone/Epitestosterone level

message: *www.cyclingnews.com is reporting that the testosterone found in Landis' A sample was exogenous, meaning that it came from outside the body.  Scroll down.  I have to go right now, but I just wanted to throw it out there to see if you all think it is legitimate enough for mention in the article. --AdamBiswanger1 01:17, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Nice find. It's strange the way these results (e.g. the specific testosterone/epitestosterone ratio of 11-1 and now this claim of exogenousness) leak out piecemeal. Anyway, Landis' attorney is quoted disputing the reliability of IRMS, but does not dispute the result itself, so that is implicit but clear confirmation that this is indeed the lab's result. --Brian Hill 06:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *It doesn't leak out peacemeal. Both data were reported simultaneously by German media. --OliverH 07:11, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *The german article which initially leaked this would be quite useful, have you got a link? --Aioth 08:30, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * Well, the first reports where by German public television ARD which was then cited in other media. However, as for exogenous testosterone, at the time they only reported that there were "indications" beyond the unusual ratio that the testosterone was artificial. Apparently, this has now been confirmed by others digging a bit deeper. Unfortunately, due to a new cycling event in Germany currently going on, the links from ARD's Tour de France site are messed up, i.e. they have teaser abstracts, but if you click on the links to read more, you get to articles about the new event. Plus the ARD is a conglomerate of several regional broadcasting stations which all have additional individual websites... To get the chronology correct, first, it became public that an athlete -without name- had suspicious levels. Then, several media outlets linked that to Landis, including a danish and a dutch newspaper. ARD, too, called several national associations who stated they had not been notified -but it was known that the association responsible for the cyclist had been notifed, so the noose tightened around Landis. Not the least, because he cancelled other races and neither he, nor anyone from Phonak, was available for comment. Then, Phonak confirmed that it was indeed Landis and pretty much simultaneously, the values were leaked by someone from the Phonak or Landis entourage to ARD. Here is an article by Der Spiegel in German right after the Phonak/Landis press conference. Here is an earlier one, citing the dutch and danish papers. Here is an article by the Netzeitung stating that Landis and Klöden cancelled their participation in a cycling event in Hamburg. --OliverH 10:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Exogenous testosterone

message: *Thyroid hormone levels are not "notoriously unstable" if the patient is taking the correct dose consistently. --Cybergoth 03:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Patients taking medication for hypothyroidism are typically tested only once a year, maybe twice early on.  Then, for 6 or 12 months they take a fixed dosage regardless of what their body needs each particular day.  A person with a normally operating thyroid gland has a feedback system that naturally and continually adjusts to maintain stability that a medicated person does not have (the only feedback is every 6 or 12 months).  While medication can maintain stable levels of certain hormone levels (in particular, the ones the medication contains), there is no continual feedback mechanism to maintain stability in all related hormone and protein levels.  This is why even people on proper medication for hypothyroidism do not have the stable hormone levels of someone whose body naturally maintains the stability on an as-needed continual basis.  --Serge 20:22, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *That may be so for the average patient.  However, I would presume that an elite athelete would have their TSH level checked more frequently.  Typically, the TSH level equilibrates 4-6 weeks after an adjustment in the dose of levothyroxine. --Cybergoth 17:36, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hypothyroidism

message: *Cortisone is a steroid, and Landis was using cortisone with approval for his hip ailment, so could this use of steroids also have contributed to raised testosterone levels? I'm guessing not, because I haven't heard anyone suggest it, but does anyone understand it a little more? Or can we explain it in the article, because to the non-expert, you have earlier suggestions that higher levels suggest steroid use, but that he was approved to use a type of steroid... --Brendanfox 01:17, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *If it were the cortisone, he would have failed a number of other tests that were taken throughout the tour. --Aioth 06:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cortisone

message: *The BBC reports on the three reasons Landis gave as scientifically dubious: He then listed three (scientifically dubious) reasons why his testosterone levels might have been out of whack after his yellow-jersey winning efforts in stage 17.  Cycling commentator Phil Ligget has said:"He would have been tested probably two or three times before this particular test and they've obviously been declared negative. ... Now that would indicate whatever it is he would have taken on this particular day, I suspect. ... But why go out and win the day's racing when that's an automatic test and testosterone is very easily discovered? It would be like putting your head into a noose.  I think it is very important that any inclusion in the article on the doping be well-referenced.  The issue as to whether Landis knew or not seems to be reasonably well-referenced that Landis was notified by fax.  It seems likely that the fax would have included the actual test result.  The best analysis I have yet read of "Was it the Beer?" is at cyclingnews.com --A Y Arktos\talk 22:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *It should be noted that even in the study detailing the high variance of ratios in swedish atheletes, the one case with a ratio of 10.5 is still considered a clear case of testosterone doping. --OliverH 23:05, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Was it the beer? - more refs...

message: *Do we know when to expect results from the second test? I'd like to know more details about the second test. --geekyßroad. meow? 23:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *I think they take four days--A Y Arktos\talk 00:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *The New York Times states the test to discover high levels of testosterone is two-pronged and labor-intensive. The first part, to see if there is a high t/e ratio, can take anywhere from 8 to 12 hours, he said. The second part, to see whether that high ratio comes naturally or from an external source, is also lengthy  Here is a ref that he will know the result by Monday night --A Y Arktos\talk 00:56, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Of couse it is now widely reported as being Saturday.  Landis was apparently not over-eager to see the results from the B sample--A Y Arktos\talk 09:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Second test results: positive

message: What multi-week holiday starts on August 5th?  Burkina Faso apparently has its independance day on that day, but for some reason, I doubt any lab in France would take multiple weeks off to observe that.  I've also looked several days before and after August 5th and haven't found any multi-week holidays that the Laboratory Châtenay-Malabry would likely observe. --TerraFrost 23:06, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Agreed. Much of France takes off the month of August. It is not tied to any particular national holiday. This is good to remember if you --plan to invade.Uucp 23:20, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Hmmm.  I guess my being an American would be why I didn't know, heh.  Anyway, thanks for the explanations! :) --TerraFrost 23:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *I'm guessing early august is just the time when the laboratory's staff all take a vacation. It's not a state holiday I think. But yeah, why would one go on vacation in winter? --Sloane 04:42, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *One person going on vacation at any given time is one thing - everyone going on vacation at the same time is - from I guess the perspective of a US-citizen - rather unusual.  Atleast for businesses that don't practice nepotism (eg. small family-run businesses) TerraFrost 06:28, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *It's unusual in the U.S. but not in Europe; citizenship isn't relevant.  Also, "nepotism" is "generally used in a derogatory sense", and doesn't apply to a small family-run business any more than it applies to leaving one's wealth to one's relatives. -- Jibal 07:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *I didn't intend to be derogatory and apologize for that.  I made that particular comment because the only places that I do see closed for months at a time in the US are family run restraunts, gift shops, or whatever.  Is there a non-derogatory word that means the same thing as nepotism?  I can't think of any, off hand... :\ --TerraFrost 08:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *What's wrong with "family-run business"? Nepotism is the practice of unfairly preferring your relations with respect to jobs, deals, and positions. I don't think this describes what you have in mind very well. --Stephan Schulz 17:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: *Actually small businesses throughout France close for an extended period of time during either July or August.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by --71.111.200.58 (talk • contribs) .
It is not uncommon of French public establishments (this lab is a public administrative establishment) or companies that do not have to receive the public to shut down during August. It may be easier from a management point of view to have everybody go at the same time (and thus reduce fixed costs) than maintain it half-open (and incur the fixed costs). David.Monniaux 08:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "...the laboratory shuts for the holidays at the end of the week."

message: Sections archived since obsolete, outdated or not on-topic:
*Typical news report
*More perspective on what Landis accomplished in Stage 17
*Doping allegations and anti-americanism
*...
If you think these edits are inappropriate, feel free to reincorporate the sections combed out or drop a short note to do me so. Otherwise, I'd be pleased if you try to help to keep this talk page as concise as possible. Thanks, fbahr. August 7, 2006.
:The archival is fine with me, but some of your edits have produced breakage by changing indentation levels and moving responses away from what they were responding to.  I think your time and energy would be better spent improving articles rather than talk pages. -- Jibal 03:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archived sections

message: As per Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#How to use article talk pages, specifically Talk pages are not a forum for editors to argue their own different points of view about controversial issues, I have removed comments that breach WP:Not.  We don't need to hear individual editor's views on whether or not Landis is a cheat or how good looking (or otherwise) he is.  There are other places on the internet for such discussions.--A Y Arktos\talk 22:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And this includes original research debating the merits (or lack thereof) of the arguments and evidence. If you are suggesting the inclusion of verifiable and sourced information from reliable sources, you are welcome to do so but if you are using information from journals (or whatever) to try and prove or disprove the allegations against Landis then similarly, there are better places for such discussions. You might want to also read Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons Nil Einne 16:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Staying on topic