Talk:Salvador Allende/Archive 2

message: The following passages were recently cut from the article. Offhand, I'm not convinced these cuts are beneficial (although the second one was, perhaps, poorly placed and belongs more in the "legacy" section): 
As provided in the Chilean constitution, the national legislature had to choose between Allende and the next-highest vote-getter (Alessandri), and they voted for Allende. This was quite ironic for him, since he had actually obtained a higher percentage of the vote in the previous presidential election, six years earlier (however, in that election, there had been no strong third candidate like the one in 1970). 
The coup that many Chileans hoped would protect the constitution actually resulted in its destruction. Pinochet ruled, unelected, for seventeen years. His government's human rights abuses left more than three thousand Chileans dead or missing during the long period of dictatorship. 
Without the first passage, the article now has no explanation at all of how he became president without a majority; this is as notable as (say) how Rutherford B. Hayes became president of the United States, but the article now glosses it over.
As for the second passage, I would think it should be expanded upon (and relevant citations found) rather than removed: many people, including many Chilean politicians, who supported the coup became rapidly disillusioned with Pinochet, and, inevitably, some also revised their opinion of Allende either in a more favorable direction (by contrast) or less favorable (as a contibutor to a crisis that laid the country low). 
I'd also think there should be mention of the fact that a generation grew up in the Pinchet years hearing only anti-Allende propaganda in school, but as Pinchet's image had become more and more tarnished, Allende's reputation among that generation is on the rise. 
I'd like to hear what some other people have to say before I edit: also, I consider myself knowledgable but not expert on this, and would be very happy if someone genuinely expert would take it on. -- Jmabel 03:43, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)
:I have no opinion on the first paragraph, and agree this issue should be mentioned.  I removed the second because it's a highly incomplete summary of a complex issue.  Pinochet's legacy is debated today both in Chile and abroad, and he has supporters.  None of this has anything do with Salvador Allende, however, and he is the subject of the article.  There is an article Augusto Pinochet where this controversy is collected (and fought over viciously).  Any supposed "give-and-take" between Pinochet's reputation and Allende's is speculative at best and certainly minor; one would think he'd be evaluated on his own merits. VV 04:43, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  recently cut 

message: Recent anonymous addition: "It has been suggested that the CIA aided Pinochet by allowing him to study the outdated documents explaining military tactics and the formation of the CIA itself." I suppose this statement makes itself trivially true, but has it been suggested by someone of any significance? If so, cite. If not, it should not be in the article. -- Jmabel 17:14, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
: Could be true, but I don't know of any source for it either. Probably should be removed for now. Cadr 17:42, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree and I've removed it. JamesMLane 03:24, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  "It has been suggested" 

message: I moved a link from the "External links" section to the "Also see..." section. Regards. Johdl 04:54, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved a link 

message: I just think it's interesting that the person praised as a democratic visionary by socialists was an admirer of Joseph Stalin. Not that he enacted any kind of Stalinist police state, but it kinda makes you wonder. J. Parker Stone 03:57, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments 

message: Literally every other reference I can find on the web to Salvador Allende: Antisemitism and Euthanasia by Víctor Farías is a repetition of one identical item, according to which the book isn't even published yet. So let me ask: has the person who is citing it here seen an advance copy? Is there any basis to consider it a credible source? Is it actually published somewhere (in which case please add publication information)? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:29, May 20, 2005 (UTC)
: Ah, I see, it has come out in Spanish. Then it should be cited by its Spanish title an publication information, no? And I still ask, have those who are citing it actually read it, or are they just repeating what they saw on a blog someplace? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:31, May 20, 2005 (UTC)
:: Here's a review, in Spanish, from someone obviously very anti-Allende, but much more substantive than the one thing that's been floating around in English. By the way, this remarks that Farías does not assert that the Nazi Walter Rauff financed Allende's 1969 parliamentary campaign, although remarks on "some believing" this. Quoting from that review: 
:::"Higiene mental y delincuencia (Mental Hygiene and Delinquency), which is the title of the book written by Allende in 1933, according to the exhumation and revelation by Víctor Farías, defends the thesis of the most blatant antisemitism. The Jews, according to Allende, are characterized by determined forms of crime: "fraud, falsehood, calumny, and, above all, usury". Allende was an antisemite who intellectually promoted the massive sterilization and "eugenic science" of the Nazis not only in this book, but in the initiative which, later, in 1939, he led as minister of health in the Unidad Popular government of president Aguirre-Cerda (1939-1941)."
:: For whatever it's worth, I've looked at this and a few other things on line and suspect that Farías' "euthanasia" may be an exaggeration: lots of people writing, most of them hostile to Allende, none citing any actual endorsement of euthanasia, just of eugenics. 
:: So what are we left with? I haven't seen the book, so I'm just going by reviews, but if the gist of the reviews is accurate, then Allende in the 1930s was an antisemite and a supporter of eugenics. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:53, May 20, 2005 (UTC)
::The book is quite good. It is short and the author pretty much let's Allende's thesis do the talking. The Allende Foundation is going to publish the thesis to try to prove Farias wrong, but his project of law whe he was minister of health still stands. Anyway, I want to know something. Someone put on a footnote that Allende's mother was jewish. According to who? The Gossens family came to Chile from Belgium and were devouted catholics. From what source do we know they were jewish? In fact I would say that affirmation is wrong. (anon, 2 June 2005)
Here is a rebuttal to Farias's claims from the Allende Foundation:  They accuse Farias of conflating Allende's summaries of then-current theories about crime with his actual beliefs. They include specific quotes from the thesis, rejecting the theory that Jews and other races are predisposed to various crimes, and quote the conclusion of the thesis where Allende concludes that criminal nature stems both from human nature and from the influence of society (and not from . It is clear, in any case, that Farias's research is not NPOV and his allegations should not be repeated uncritically in the Allende article. I also believe that this POV disqualifies his 'fascism' slur from appearing in this article -- if we're going to "teach the controversy" it should probably be in an article about Farias or his book. I took a first stab at the paragraph, but I doubt that it will be the last one. Eliot 23:05, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Antisemitism and Euthanasia" 

message: Per your request I am here providing excellent sources to do just this...
* There is no doubt that he died because of the military coup. I don't think it is necessary to discuss this. We should discuss about Allende's political and social effects on the nation and on the world. With respect, the son of the death heroes of the Battle of Kosovo, Deliogul 21:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can we settle once and for all the question of how Allende Died? 

message: According to Absolute Astronomy Encyclopedia two physicians in La Moneda were witnesses to Allende's suicide:
::*Dr. Patricio Guijón (who made a statement at the time).
::*Dr. José Quiroga (who confirmed it many years later). 
"…During this coup, Allende died. After being debated by several years, the official version, that he committed suicide with a machine gun (generally presumed to be the machine gun given to him by Fidel Castro), and an autopsy labelled his death as suicide, has been widely accepted, even by members of his own party and family. This general acceptance is based on statements given by two doctors from the La Moneda Palace infirmary: Patricio Guijón, who made a statement at the time, and José Quiroga who confirmed it many years later. (Some sources misattribute these statements to "Allende's personal doctor"; that would be Enrique Paris Roa, who does not appear to have made such a statement.) However some still insist he was murdered by Pinochet's military forces while defending the palace."
nfgii | Talk 03:32, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another Source: Absolute Astronomy Encyclopedia