Talk:List of countries by intentional homicide rate

message: There is no way on earth that the information reported in these statistics is even, on average, truthful. Or even close to truthful. China has less intentional homicides per capita than Iceland? Really?
You're telling me I'm supposed to believe that Russia has less intentional homicides than the United States? Or even that the two are equivalent? 
I'm sorry, but it looks to me that the only purpose this page serves is as ammunition for political attacks - NOT as an encyclopedic reference. I know we usually go by the standard of "it needs an outside source to be on wikipedia," but this time, come on guys... there has to be a better source than lies given to the UN. How can we display this low-quality information with a straight face?75.43.152.147 (talk) 00:32, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but articles on Wikipedia aren't updated just because the sourced data doesn't meet some editors' expectations. You are welcome to propose better reliable sources that could be used here instead of the UNODC. Vgbyp (talk) 07:07, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: look me in the eye and tell me it meets even your own expectations 75.43.152.147 (talk) 04:57, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been editing the article for years, and the numbers put out by UNODC are mostly accurate. They list their sources. And you can go to their sources and see the data. Most sources are from governments. Not all sources are necessarily trustworthy. For more info go to the country links for info on crime, murder rates, extrajudicial killings, etc.. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:16, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I also question the reliability of these stats, which indicate for example that Syria has a lower homicide rate than Canada. I think the table is generally misleading. 198.98.114.204 (talk) 11:03, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The information on this page is so untrustworthy and useless that it should be deleted 

message: What happened to Senegal? Its entry on the list disappeared altogether. Yet it still shows on the map as <1 murder rate.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.33.58.136 (talk) 09:21, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: For some reason, Senegal isn't present in the most recent UNODC table, but is present in their 2018 table (with the data for 2015). I've added it here. Vgbyp (talk) 09:31, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Senegal 

message: UNDOC collects data for "intentional homicide". In most common-law countries, this would include murder and voluntary manslaughter. It does not include. eg involuntary manslaughter/negligent homicide, Assault Causing Death, and other similar offenses that result in death where death was not intended. Different countries have their own definitions. The idea is that UNDOC has data on intentional homicide, but the legal meaning of intention in criminal law, both as it relates to homicide law, and in general, varies between countries and even between different jurisdictions of the same country. To give you an example, the definition of murder in English law is "the unlawful killing of any person with an intention to kill or to cause grievous bodily harm to that person",, whereas the definition of murder in Scots law is "a wilful act causing the destruction of life, whether wickedly intended to kill, or displaying such wicked recklessness as to imply a disposition depraved enough to be regardless of consequences." Something that is classed as intentional homicide in one jurisdiction, may not be classed as such in another jurisdiction (and this does not even take into account legal justifications. eg self defense, which also vary by legal system in their definitions and applicability). And of course, there are other issues, such as plea bargain, where someone who has killed pleads guilty to a lesser offense of unintentional homicide. (Truthful reporting of crimes by governments is obviously also a relevant issue, but this is more often discussed). 
The article briefly addresses this issue stating that: "Though some discrepancies exist in how specific categories of intentional killings are classified, the definitions used by countries to record data are generally close to the UNODC definition", but I think this has to be addressed more in detail. Even international legally binding conventions, such as the Istanbul Convention, that require countries which ratify it to criminalize various intentional acts, leave it up to each country to define "intention"; just read the explanatory report of the convention, which says in several places that "The interpretation of the word “intentionally” is left to domestic law".  2A02:2F0F:B110:B500:B1D2:35C6:5E14:6D5E (talk) 22:17, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparing statistics between countries is very difficult because of different legal definitions

message: In the table showing rates and numbers of murders per country the sum of the numbers of homicides for the component parts of the UK (Northern Ireland - 21, Scotland - 58 and England & Wales 696) is 775 but the total for the UK is showing as 673 and so the rate per 100,000 for the UK is 1.0 while the component parts all have higher rates - 1.2 for England & Wales and 1.1 for Northern Ireland and also Scotland. 82.34.151.31 (talk) 23:55, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The years are different. Vgbyp (talk) 08:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  United Kingdom 

message: See diff. 
. Thanks! Did you use Excel again? If so can you update and clarify the instructions at Talk:List of countries by intentional homicide rate/Excel instructions. 
It would be nice to know how to do it simply in LibreOffice Calc too. See: 
*Talk:List of countries by intentional homicide rate/LibreOffice Calc instructions
It is currently way too complex. So complex I can't figure it out from the old forum thread. If I could find a simpler way with LibreOffice I could use it on many state and country tables. 
I am understanding more and more of what you wrote in the Excel instructions. And I think I can apply them to Calc. I will need to experiment further. 
In your Excel instructions you said you manually compared the results to the article table: "It is then trivial to compare the existing Wikipedia table to the UNODC table. It cannot automatically generate the entire table, but when there are just a few changes to the data, it is a simple and rather fast approach."
One thing I have figured out is this:
*Help:Tables and locations#Separate counts and rates to 2 columns.
Does this help you?
--Timeshifter (talk) 00:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  2023 data from UNODC has been added to the table