Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 17

message: :I like having this option. In publishing, photographs of people should always look into the center of the page, toward the text, because the readers' eye is drawn to the direction of the body, face, or eyes, and we want the readers' eye to move toward the text. We therefore shouldn't have a rule that photographs always have to be on the top righthand side, because it isn't always possible to find a photograph that looks to the left. If we only have a photograph that looks to the right, it should on the left of the page. With a photo on the left, the TOC might look better on the right, so that's a good option to have. It's also nice in some articles to embed the TOC on the right in the text, rather than have all that white space, especially with a long TOC. I therefore see these options for editors as enhancing the content, as well as the creative input of the contributors. SlimVirgin (talk) July 5, 2005 17:13 (UTC)
::Thank you, I quite agree. That is why i created TOCleft, as an exact parallel to TOCright. DES 5 July 2005 17:25 (UTC)
:::Thank you for doing that. I find it makes editing more interesting, being able to make some layout decisions. I get a lot of satisfaction out of trying to make a page look good, and that makes me want to make the text better too. SlimVirgin (talk) July 5, 2005 17:46 (UTC)
:The analogy of a web page, such as a Wikipedia page, to a magazine page is flawed— and the flaw is instructive. A bound magazine has an outer margin, desirable for images, and a central margin, called the gutter where the page disappears. An image in this central position is said to be "guttered", and its legibility and appearance are compromised. A web page is neither recto nor verso: it is perfectly neutral. People who insist that images "must" be on the right hand edge or in the upper right corner are misinformed. They are merely exercising their authoritarian training or their current position of authority, sometimes at the expense of a good layout. --Wetman 5 July 2005 18:07 (UTC)
::The analogy is imperfect but not completely without merit. As I view pages (Monobook plus a few user styles), they have a pretty clear recto feel. I suspect most people using Monobook would perceive it this way, though I may be wrong. Anyway, I agree that it's unreasonable to inflict some absolute standard on all pages. There should be a guideline, however, on when it is and is not appropriate to override the Wikipedia default. Pages that are essentially long lists without much introductory text would be good candidates for deviating from the standard. —HorsePunchKid→龜 July 5, 2005 19:43 (UTC)
:::Indeed, one may be wrong. For this editor then, even a notepad bound at the top would have a "recto feel." So, how about the magnets on the refrigerator door? Left-opening or right-opening makes a difference even there. The fact is, there are four focus points within any stable, isolated rectangular format; there the eye darts first, and a Wikipedia page is more like a rectangular painting— think of a travel poster, then— than a page bound into a book, with a gutter down one side. As one reaches the edges of one's competence, one might begin to rein in one's confidence.... but I could be wrong. --Wetman 23:16, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't totally clear there. The page seems recto to me because there's a huge gutter on the left side. That's all I was getting at. I know my stylesheet is a little non-standard, but as I recall, the default Monobook style also has this huge margin on the left. The main content area is definitely not an isolated rectangle! —HorsePunchKid→龜 06:23, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As one reaches the edges of one's competence, one might begin to rein in one's confidence.... but I could be wrong. — By the way, what exactly was the point of this comment? —HorsePunchKid→龜 00:33, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page layouts 

message: First off, I agree that this discussion has gotten to the point where a MoS guideline has to be established. But before any debate starts ocurring, we should have at least a knowledge of what we agree on. 
I agree with DES that there is a need to have these templates, and that they shouldn't be the default for Wiki's TOCs, and in my opinion, that they should be restricted to pages with images and lists (I'm flexible on this one).
If any changes are going to be made to the TOCs, I believe we all concur that they should be floated to maintain good aesthetics. So, a MoS requirement for the use of Template:TOCleft and Template:TOCright should be that they are implemented in a way that minimizes annoying whitespace. Are we all OK on that? 
Now, let's start with the details... how about the templates not exceeding ~ 30% of the viewer's screen (not including the navigation sidebar) if they are used? If they exceed that, then the TOC is too wide and the default should be used. 
Comments are requested and encouraged. --Titoxd 7 July 2005 03:01 (UTC)
:That sounds like a good plan. I have just added it to Space opera in Scientology doctrine. The TOC is long, but nessarily so. What do you think? - Ta bu shi da yu 7 July 2005 04:47 (UTC)
::I think you understood perfectly my idea. --Titoxd 8 July 2005 03:34 (UTC)
I agree that non-default TOCs should normally be flaoted, and in any case I think this discussion is limited to floating TOCs. I wouldn't state absolutely that there is never a place for a non-standard, non-floating TOC, but I haven't seen one yet. I agree that the 30% width rule (I assume you meant that to apply to width, not height) is a good rule of thumb, but a user with a particularly large font size or low resolution or both may find that a TOC that occupies well under 30% for most viewers, takes up more in his or her particular case. The rule must say soemthing about an average or likely viewer, or somehow handle this case, I think. DES 7 July 2005 21:07 (UTC)
:Yeah, I meant 30% width as a ballpark figure, so it doesn't obstruct too much text. So, if no one objects, then that should be placed in the MoS (I'd rather have someone with more experience and higher position do it, because I'm a Wiki newbie). But does anyone have any idea what the average Wikipedia user's screen resolution is? I use 1024x768, and I think the bare minimum nowadays is 800x600... --Titoxd 8 July 2005 03:34 (UTC) 
I think that Space opera in Scientology doctrine looks good with your addition, nd this is an example where an article without an image nonethelsess is improved by flaoting the TOC. DES 7 July 2005 21:07 (UTC)
As 30% varies according to user settings, perhaps a comparison to more stable examples would help.  How about comparing to the Wikipedia left-side navigation column, the width of top-of-page tabs, or the end of the "Edit summary" input field?  (SEWilco 06:35, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: 30% would translate to roughly 1 + 1/2 to 2 times the width of the left navigation bar, at least in my browser. I don't know if others with other resoultions have different results. -- Titoxd 07:14, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Width definitions 

message: # I can support this as written, but I hope we will continue to suggest improvements. DES 23:23, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Support 

message: *Strong oppose to the first sentence (If an article will be benefitted by reducing unused whitespace, float). While the next ones try to bring some sence, the fisrt one is clear signal to put this abomination everywhere, disrupting reading flow to save few pixels. Pavel Vozenilek 02:04, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oppose 

message: This discussion is now a month old. Does anyone object to closing the vote a week from now (and posting the proposal in the MoS and archiving this discussion if it passes)? --Titoxd 22:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Closing date

message: I wish to alert others who have been involved in the discussions to  who is currently unilatterally adding  to articles on which it is quite clearly not justified, and where its use goes against the majority feeling of those in the VfD discussion and subsequent discussions.  I unfortunately don't have time to deal with it myself, but have asked the user to stop.  Joe D (t) 21:38, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Misc