Talk:Legal education in the United States

message: The box on the side that notes the stages of education may be wrong. Since a Doctor of Laws is an honorary degree, it is not a stage of education. However, S.J.D. is a degree, and the terminal one, ergo it should be there rather than Doctor of Laws.Sovereignlance (talk) 07:24, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Stages of Education Box

message: Bear in mind that the Juris Doctor degree is not exclusive to the United States.  Graduates of Canada's University of Toronto law school receive a J.D. as well.  However, it is the only law school in Canada to do so, to my knowledge. (posted by user Nmarritz) 
It is correct that the University of Toronto is currently the only Canadian school that offers a Juris Doctor degree but other Canadian schools are considering it. Western University, for example, recently had a reforendum and the students voted in favour of offering a J.D. Some prominent Australian universities also offer students the option of recieving a J.D. (examples include Bond, Beirne and Melbourne). (posted by user Turtleneck)
Isn't "Education of Lawyers in the United States" pretty much synonymous with American law school? Also, the bar exam is not part of legal education; it is about accreditation following law school. It seems to me this article should be merged into law school & bar examination. I can't see any reason for it to exist on its own, unless it was changed into a simple explanation of the process of becoming a lawyer with links to the various stages. (posted by user Laerien)
:I think this article should remain separate from law school, but I agree that you have a point that some of this information could be transferred over there, and law school and bar examination could become "subarticles" of this article (because at least as currently composed, they are strongly American-focused).  Maybe the article title should be changed to Education and training of lawyers in the United States.  That would be more in compliance with the Manual of Style guideline that only the first word and proper nouns should be in uppercase, not all nouns.  --Coolcaesar 11:59, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with merger but agree with Coolcaesar I DavidKinnen did make a mistake in the name and it should be changed to a more appropriate title.  I created this article to tidy up the huge Lawyer article, which is expanding yet again.  Certainly hive off parts to law school and bar examination and make this the main page on Education and training of lawyers in the United States. Davidkinnen 10:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Merger: 

message: Much of the information here does overlap with the "Law Schools in the United States" page, but nevertheless provides a good overview of legal education generally.  I think this could be cleaned up a lot.  Fortunately, some of the tone has recently been changed -- much of it sounded cynical and smacked of bitterness, but that seems to have changed a bit.  A lot of the information could be better organized, and a number of links could be added.  
Some additions and expansions might include:
- The differences between clinical education and doctrinal education
- Clerkships as a source of education
- Continuing Legal Education (CLE) requirements
- Law school education and law review
- Interdisciplinary changes in legal education
There's probably too much info about salaries and firms for an entry about legal education -- so maybe some of the info here could be grouped with "Law Schools" and the rest made into "Legal Jobs" (law firms, salaries, public interest, etc.)?
:I agree, there's very little about the actual legal education process, the information deals mostly with what law school students between semesters and after they finish school.  Much work is needed. Bjsiders 12:22, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This could be a much better resource 

message: The Admission information on this page duplicates that on the Bar_admission page and its progeny. I suggest we eliminate it from this page and simply link to that page rewinn 22:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discuss: Moving "Admission" section to "Bar_admission"

message: #Legal education would seem to include CLE, LPOs, paralegals, citizen law education (e.g. Law Week) et cetera. 
# If article is only about pre-practice education of lawyers, it would need retitling ...but probably not be very interesting.
# Much of the content seems related to how the legal profession relates to credential, what it's like working in mega-firms, et cetera. These are all interesting but .... the article seems scattered. What is its focus?
# Admission to the bar in the United States already deals in detail with admission, so I deleted most of it here. Let me know if you think otherwise rewinn 05:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discuss Focus of Article 

message: I would like to explain my changes to this section. First, the title "Length of typical workweek at megafirms" is only appropriate to the first sentence and does not accurately include the content of the remainder of this section. Second, although some associates work 80 or more hours a week, this is not the average at large firms. That this is not just personal experience is independently verified by the two citations. The first shows that the average associate hours per week (not just hours billed) range from 49 at Chapman and Cutler to 71 at Wachtell. The second examines how one bills 1800-2200 hours per year. Third, I removed the quotation marks from "megafirms" because the use of quotation marks was inconsistent and distracting. Redkern 14:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The large firm environment

message: I propose taking the section on school rankings and credentials (law review, etc.) and merging them into Law school in the United States. They're duplicative here and as a comment on Talk:Law school in the United States noted, they have more to do with the school rather than education. I suppose a section on judicial clerkships can stay, since they've already graduated law school. Wl219 07:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger with [[Law school in the United States]], redux

message: Some sections of this article are clearly biased, such as the Lawyer credentials, prestige, and career path section. It sounds like a disgruntled law student wrote it. Other sections have some POV. If someone could find references for more information in this article and reduce the bias, that'd be great. ~MDD4696 16:19, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias in some sections 

message: this article has got some serious problems.  1.  very little referencing  2.  a lot of opinion, what appears to be original research, and  3.  There are some sections that contain info that is flat out wrong.  I'll be making some changes in the near future, and there will be discussion beforehand in this section.  ....unsigned comment by Italics99 on 19 July 2007
===First: trim Career Path Section===
The Career Path section is mostly irrelevant to the subject of this article, so I've cut it (but included it below, in case anyone wants to start an article on lawyer career path  or something). Also, the introduction redefines the article in a silly way; if the article is to be about preadmission lawyer's education very well, but then the title should be different. CLE and Public legal education are not insignificant rewinn (talk) 05:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup, accuracy, and neutrality 

message: The Career Path section is mostly irrelevant to the subject of this article, so I've cut it (but included it below, in case anyone wants to start an article on lawyer career path  or something). Also, the introduction redefines the article in a silly way; if the article is to be about preadmission lawyer's education very well, but then the title should be different. CLE and Public legal education are not insignificant rewinn (talk) 05:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: First: trim Career Path Section

message: I've cut and pasted some notes I took on the history of legal education in the U.S.  Many of the sources are not the ideal, but they are available on the internet, which makes it easier for the interested reader to learn more, and for editors to verify (particularly helpful for editing wars with chumps). Your comments are welcome. Zoticogrillo (talk) 00:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New history section 

message: From general article on Legal_education we had to trunckate some sentences having inricate details, as part of article clean up. Those sentences can be added to this article, but before that I am shifting them here at this talk page.
* Though attorneys rarely if ever use the title 'doctor' even though they are entitled to by both degree and etiquette. The undergraduate degree can be in any field, though most American lawyers hold bachelor's degrees in the humanities and social sciences. American law schools are usually an autonomous entity within a larger university, though there are independent institutions.
* Some take the bar exam before a clerkship but this is not required, 
*The professional degree granted by U.S. law schools is the Juris Doctor or Doctor of Jurisprudence (J.D.).  Through the early 1970s, however, the degree conferred at many U.S. laws schools, including Yale, was the LL.B. Most prospective lawyers are usually required to pass a state bar examination in order to be licensed to practice as an Attorney at Law. Historically, as many as 32 states have recognized a diploma privilege method of bar admission which does not require sitting for a bar exam. As of mid-2007, Wisconsin and Vermont are the only states that continue to recognize this privilege.
Mahitgar (talk) 07:27, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Shifting of intricated details

message: From general article on Legal_education we had to trunckate some sentences having inricate details, as part of article clean up. Those sentences can be added to this article, but before that I am shifting them here at this talk page.
* Though attorneys rarely if ever use the title 'doctor' even though they are entitled to by both degree and etiquette. The undergraduate degree can be in any field, though most American lawyers hold bachelor's degrees in the humanities and social sciences. American law schools are usually an autonomous entity within a larger university, though there are independent institutions.
* Some take the bar exam before a clerkship but this is not required, 
*The professional degree granted by U.S. law schools is the Juris Doctor or Doctor of Jurisprudence (J.D.).  Through the early 1970s, however, the degree conferred at many U.S. laws schools, including Yale, was the LL.B. Most prospective lawyers are usually required to pass a state bar examination in order to be licensed to practice as an Attorney at Law. Historically, as many as 32 states have recognized a diploma privilege method of bar admission which does not require sitting for a bar exam. As of mid-2007, Wisconsin and Vermont are the only states that continue to recognize this privilege.
Mahitgar (talk) 07:28, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Shifting of intricated details 2

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified