Talk:Jorge Luis Borges/Archive 1

message: Because the article length exceeded 32kb, this text was moved here from the main body for further discussion. Feel free to "mine" it for content for the article:
* Borges in the Modern and Postmodern Context 
: I've mined this for the articles George Herbert, Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius, and The Book of Sand. I doubt there is much of value that has not been taken, but a devotee of Derrida might disagree. -- Jmabel 08:19, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Borges in the Modern and Postmodern Context (linked) 

message: That was a title this section received when it was first segrgated from the amorphous postmodern thingus we all started with. (It's two separate sections now.) Bottom line for me is that the section(s) did not and still don't reflect the thinking Borges clearly expressed about this matter in "Our Poor Individualism" and elsewhere. Goes back and forth between POVs that he was worldly vs. a product of his time and place, never really goes much of anywhere, then peters out. No criticism intended, my fault as much as anyone's. What should it be, people? Borges contended with the question of what it means to be Argentine. He advised that Argentina's literary identity must be to look to the entire world from the vantage point of an unfinished Argentina--not limit the scope of attention to Hispanic matters, let alone to the Southern Cone, and certainly not to "local color". The page doesn't doesn't reflect that view, nor critique it. Consider also that the "accusation" that he was a Jew probably conveyed in code to racists the smear that he was not a true Argentine. Whereas the original page seemed to me to paint Borges as hopelessly Eurocentric. Because I don't really understand all the prejudices involved, I'm not sure how to rise above them; If I fix it, it risks being insensitive to inter-American rivalries that sometimes portray Argentina itself, favorably or unfavorably, as distinctly Europhile. Borges did strive to rise above ethnicity and there is much to say for his efforts--but at the same time the scope of his attention was filtered--it is true that he didn't spend much research effort on indigenous cultures; and The Book of Imaginary Beings betrays that the fantastic creatures of Chinese lore escaped his pen; and he may have expressed occasional Francophobia. I'm not trying to be petty--he probably knew more literatures and cultures than anybody you or I know; and who knows what languages he would have learned had he escaped blindness--but is there a way to split the difference between the characatures of Borges as (imperfectly) worldly versus Borges the (hoplessly, myopically) Argentine? Be that as it may these two roles--Argentine, and World Citizen--cannot be separated and neither can two subsections convey anything but our ignorance. I hereby threaten to fix it unless someone who's actually qualified steps up to the plate.
-munge, 10 March 2004
: Well, you may not be ideally qualified, but I don't think any of us are. Judging by the preceding paragraph, you are clearly clueful & have some idea where to take tht part of the article. When I did my major rewrite, I wasn't really focused on this "grand statement" sort of stuff, just ground-clearing and basic facts, but I wholly agree that these grand statements belong here, especially if decently sourced with examples. -- Jmabel 16:45, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Current question: "Borges as Argentine and as World Citizen"

message: This one is no longer "current." Viajero removed "Jewish" from the article (which he had introduced), so I gather we are now in agreement that Borges did not have Jewish ancestry. Jmabel 23:28, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Resolved

message: Viajero, good work on the "Life". I'll add a little more, but this is really shaping up as an article. One thing, though, I think is actively wrong. Where do you get the claim that Borges was, in any degree, Jewish? He was accused in 1934 of being a Jew by the quasi-fascist (or maybe outright fascist) magazine Crisol. He chose to respond with his short essay "Yo, judío," which plays with the possibility of his being partly Jewish, but clearly comes down to saying that he isn't. 
To make this easiest for anyone else monitoring this page to follow, I'll quote from an English translation here, Karen Stolley's translation in Borges, a Reader (1981):
:"Who has not played at searching for his ancestors...? ...it has not displeased me to imagine myself often as a Jew... The journal Crisol, in its January 30 issue, chose to salute this retrospective hope..." 
After a long paragraph discussing his ancestry, and failing to find a Jew, he concludes, 
:"I am grateful to Crisol for having impelled me to pursue these invstigations, but I have less and less hope of ever ascending to the Altar of the Temple, to the Bronze Sea, to Heine... to Ecclesiastes, and Charlie Chaplin."
There's more to the essay, which is both concise and playful - in short, Borgesian - but the point is that he would have welcomed Jewish ancestry, but didn't believe he had any. Are you going by something more solid that contradicts this, or just rumor? Jmabel 20:33, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: The question

message: I'm very suspicious of some of the publication dates in the section "Collections in English." They seem to be a hodgepodge of dates of original Spanish-language publication, dates of translation, and god knows what else. I've started on a solid annotated list of Spanish-language book-length publication, and I'm planning to indicate English-language translations where they exist; I figure on adding accurate information about dates of translation as I gather it. If anyone knows a good source for an English-language Borges bibliography, please let me know (or start inserting the information yourself: if you do that, I'd appreciate a note here). I'll continue within days on the project of adding to the list I've started. I'd appreciate if I'm allowed to follow through that task, although if anyone can give further brief annotation (ISBN numbers, English-language translation info) to what's already there, please go ahead. Jmabel 07:03, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current questions relating to list of works 

message: We've come a long way in the last couple of weeks. Obviously, nothing in a Wikipedia article is ever finished, but I would say that several sections of this are at least solid.
*Life - Certainly could have more added to it, but it's basically sound. Probably could use more on his sister Norah, especially because they colloborated on volumes (she illustrated). [I fleshed out the Life considerably; could still use more on Norah - Jmabel 08:20, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessing the state of the article late Nov '03

message: The article is past the 32K line. Should we split it up? Any good editorial ideas on what to split out? Jmabel 08:20, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Split it?

message: Is it time to archive (to a separate talk page) the parts of this discussion that don't imply current open issues? If no one says otherwise by Dec 1, 2003, then I will do so shortly after that date. Jmabel 07:38, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: As rule of thumb, we archive Talk pages when they grow larger than 32Kb (because some browsers can't edit taxt files > 32Kb). While there is no explicit prohibition against doing it sooner, it is generally considered beneficial to leave the Talk pages as is until this point because it is very useful for potential contributors new to the article to be able to catch up with a quick glance on the previous discussions -- current issues or otherwise. BTW: as you may have noticed, the editor window will warn you when the page >= 30Kb. -- Viajero 11:52, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK, what if I just reorganize to bring the live issues to the top? Jmabel 20:06, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am taking the liberty to do just that. Hope no one minds. Jmabel 07:09, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time to archive some of the talk? (apparently not...) 

message: :: OK, what if I just reorganize to bring the live issues to the top? Jmabel 20:06, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am taking the liberty to do just that. Hope no one minds. Jmabel 07:09, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: ...but it is reorganized

message: ::22 August 2004 I moved the staged contribution from this page to the main Borges article. Hopefully, that resolves a lot of old issues and some naive POVs that were dogging the article for more than a year. A little squeamish about how long the article's getting, but I included the subsection about "Martin Fierro" after all. Still, that subsection could be shortened, with parts moved to the linked Borges on Martín Fierro page. In coming weeks I or someone might reorganize this section of the Talk:Borges page to reflect all open issues/questions, separating out older issues, maybe onto an archive page. munge
::4 August 2004 Still struggling with how to integrate. Renoved remarks about "Borges on Martin Fierro" from this discussion page and moved to the Talk:Borges on Martín Fierro page. I propose to remove the existing 2 paragrphs on that topic from the Borges article, and add link inside the article to the Borges on Martín Fierro page. Any objections? My reasoning: There's no point being redundant here considering there's an article whose subject is the book El "Martín Fierro". And the current article is 38 kbytes.
:::I think we should at least have a sentence or two here and an explicit link to that article. It's important that readers find this easily: after all, this is the most important 20th century Argentine writer's reaction to the most important 19th century Argentine work of literature. -- Jmabel 00:57, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)
::Regarding that article, I have a question: Anyone able to confirm there is/was a tradition of improvised song or poetry contests in the Argentine countryside?
Yes and it's called payada.  
Usually using the milonga rhythm, usually in six- or ten-verse shots.
The Martin Fierro  ends with the description of one such payada.
For more on that, Google for "payada", "payador", "gabino ezeiza" etc. (Alex, 19/Oct/2004)
::Ideally the article will be more concise when the stubby thing is fixed. How serious should I take it when Wikipedia warns us that the article is 38 kbyte, and should be 32 kbyte? (I take it that older browsers have trouble w/editing forms containing >32 kbyte, but I'm not sure that's the real problem, if any.) munge
::26 March 2004 I now have something pasted at the bottom of this page, ready for review. Hope that's OK to do that on this page; goal would be to get comments, corrections, formatting, and fill in more examples. Then, move it to the main article in coming weeks. Kind of wish our postmodern predecessor hadn't of brought up the topic, but as long as it's in there I felt the need to correct what I saw as distortions, and to put some context around why any questions about nationality even come up. (Rather than trying to put a postmodern context around Borges, someone should put some Borgesian context around postmodernism someday; cf JLB's "The Nothingness of Personality"; and a cutting remark in one of the Dantesque essays to the effect that contextual diversity is not a new idea; that the ancients too believed there are multiple, equally valid interpretations of texts.) -munge
That was a title this section received when it was first segrgated from the amorphous postmodern thingus we all started with. (It's two separate sections now.) Bottom line for me is that the section(s) did not and still don't reflect the thinking Borges clearly expressed about this matter in "Our Poor Individualism" and elsewhere. Goes back and forth between POVs that he was worldly vs. a product of his time and place, never really goes much of anywhere, then peters out. No criticism intended, my fault as much as anyone's. What should it be, people? Borges contended with the question of what it means to be Argentine. He advised that Argentina's literary identity must be to look to the entire world from the vantage point of an unfinished Argentina--not limit the scope of attention to Hispanic matters, let alone to the Southern Cone, and certainly not to "local color". The page doesn't doesn't reflect that view, nor critique it. Consider also that the "accusation" that he was a Jew probably conveyed in code to racists the smear that he was not a true Argentine. Whereas the original page seemed to me to paint Borges as hopelessly Eurocentric. Because I don't really understand all the prejudices involved, I'm not sure how to rise above them; If I fix it, it risks being insensitive to inter-American rivalries that sometimes portray Argentina itself, favorably or unfavorably, as distinctly Europhile. Borges did strive to rise above ethnicity and there is much to say for his efforts--but at the same time the scope of his attention was filtered--it is true that he didn't spend much research effort on indigenous cultures; and The Book of Imaginary Beings betrays that the fantastic creatures of Chinese lore escaped his pen; and he may have expressed occasional Francophobia. I'm not trying to be petty--he probably knew more literatures and cultures than anybody you or I know; and who knows what languages he would have learned had he escaped blindness--but is there a way to split the difference between the characatures of Borges as (imperfectly) worldly versus Borges the (hoplessly, myopically) Argentine? Be that as it may these two roles--Argentine, and World Citizen--cannot be separated and neither can two subsections convey anything but our ignorance. I hereby threaten to fix it unless someone who's actually qualified steps up to the plate. -munge, 10 March 2004
: Well, you may not be ideally qualified, but I don't think any of us are. Judging by the preceding paragraph, you are clearly clueful & have some idea where to take tht part of the article. When I did my major rewrite, I wasn't really focused on this "grand statement" sort of stuff, just ground-clearing and basic facts, but I wholly agree that these grand statements belong here, especially if decently sourced with examples. -- Jmabel 16:45, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I expect to replace the existing "Borges as Argentine" and "Borges as World Citizen" with the piece below by the end of July. Comments appreciated. I reread "The Argentine Writer and Tradition" a few times recently and frankly, I'm sorry anybody brought the whole thing up. If you read his essay carefully, you'll see that even to ask the question about his nationality is to reveal one's own petty nationalisms. Was he too European and insufficiently worldly (as the original writer of the wiki article seemed to have it)? Is he too worldly and insufficiently Argentine (as Borges' nationalist critics would have it)? Are Argentines too European (as I've heard some racists express)? Who cares! In the end, I find the entire question is almost indisinguishable from soccer hooliganism. I did my best to summarize the rootedness in Argentina, the sources of diversity, and the shortcomings--for those who are keeping score. In the process, I hope I managed to stumble across anything interesting or at least useful. -munge, 7 July 2004
Hey i was reading this article and wanted to change it a little but I couldn't find the exact citation. There is a brilliant refutation by Borges himself about this topic. I believe his cites the Quaran as never mentioning camels as analogous to him never writing about Argentina. If anyone can find the exact article I think it would be great here. I first found this in John Barth's Friday Book, "Literature of Replenishment" I believe. -DT  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.37.131.113 (talk) 19:54, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Borges as Argentine and as World Citizen" 

message: Past discussion is at Talk:Jorge Luis Borges/Archive#Current question: "compadrito" vs. "matrero". The issue was the connotations of these two terms in early 20th century Argentina. If you want to revive the discussion, please do so here, not on the archived page. -- Jmabel 18:10, 15 March 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  "compadrito" vs. "matrero" 

message: Past discussion is at Talk:Jorge Luis Borges/Archive#Current question: did Borges have Jewish ancestry?. The conclusion: he did not. If you want to revive the discussion, please do so here, not on the archived page. -- Jmabel 18:10, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It is well nigh impossible to prove whether someone with substantial Iberian ancestry does or does not have Jewish forbears. The reason is that Spain and Portugal in the Middle Ages had substantial Jewish minorities, thanks in part to Moorish protection. As the Moors gradually surrendered their control of Spain, chauvinist Spanish Catholics told the Jews they had 3 choices: convert to Catholicism, leave Spain, or die. Many underwent half-hearted conversions. Once converted, their sons and daughters could intermarry freely with Catholic Spaniards and Portuguese. Hence much of the Iberian middle and upper classes know or suspect that they have some Jewish ancestry. The descendants of those who left Spain and Portugal rather than convert or die became known as the Sephardic Jews. Does Borges feel a bit Jewish by virtue of his bookishness and vast learning, and the sympathy with Judaica occasionally revealed in his nonfiction? I think so.123.255.60.206 (talk) 00:38, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did Borges have Jewish ancestry? 

message: Past discussion of this topic is at Talk:Jorge Luis Borges/Archive#Current questions relating to list of works. Further discussion belongs here, not on the archived page. -- Jmabel 18:10, 15 March 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current questions and remarks relating to list of works 

message: This has been weeded down to open issues. The full version as of 15 March 2004 can be found at Talk:Jorge Luis Borges/Archive#Where do we want to take this article?". -- Jmabel 18:10, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Jmabel: Good work so far! IMO, the article still urgently needs a simple, straightforward summary of biographical details. To give you a gentle nudge in this direction (!), I collected some random bits from the article in a new section at the top called Life, which is still woefully incomplete. If I have time later, I will lend you a hand with this part. Carry on! -- Viajero 13:01, 26 November 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where do we want to take this article? 

message: While we're on all of this, as noted in the previous section of this talk page, there is a lot of work to be done in this article other than quibbling over small edits. To reiterate for anyone who'd like to move the article forward (most of this can be found in more detail above or at Talk:Jorge Luis Borges/Archive):
* If someone can sort out exactly what would have been the connotations of "compadrito" and "matrero" in turn-of-the-century B.A., as against how Borges used them (see discussion above), that would be useful.
* Can anyone work out if these books (mentioned in the obviously poorly researched list on http://usuarios.lycos.es/precervantes/bibliografia/borges.html) really exist (see notes above)? If so, they merit mention in the article:
** Macedonio Fernández (1961) 
*** apparently, an anthology he edited 
** Borges: sus mejores páginas (1970)
** Borges para niños (1988) 
*Life - probably could use more on his sister Norah, especially because they colloborated on volumes (she illustrated). 
*Work - could do with extended sections on various aspects of his work, but it's at least a solid overview.
*Borges as world citizen - Little more than a stub.
*Works: Quotations - So far there is only one, but it is sure representative!
*Works: Could use more ISBNs, and I suspect that many of these books have English language translations that merit mention and indication of English-language publication date. I suspect that there are also more posthumously published works worth mentioning.
*Works: Short Stories: This is an almost-random hodgepodge and should be revisited.
*Works: Quasi-Fiction: An arbitrary and ill-defined category. I think the topic of Borges's blending of fictional and non-fictional forms deserves an extended discussion rather than a list of four works.
*We could use sections on:
** Borges's views on epistemology, philosophical idealism, and personal identity
** Borges's views on infinity
** Borges's views on translation
** Borges's views on biography
** Borges's views on race and ethnicity
** Genre writing (detective fiction, fantasy, science fiction)
** Influence of Borges on other writers and thinkers
** Should add a filmography, too. 
-- Jmabel 03:01, 22 February 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jmabel remarks on state of article 22 Feb 2004 

message: Those working on this article may also want to look at Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius, into which I've put a lot of effort (maybe more than into the Borges article itself). It is a featured article candidate; I'd love to see the Borges article get there, too, but it has a much longer way to go. -- Jmabel 18:18, 15 March 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tlön 

message: Acording to the dictionary of the Real Academia Española,
Matrero is a fugitive that seeks the countryside to evade Justice. 
As correctly noted, Martin Fierro was un gaucho matrero.
On the other hand: 
Compadrito is a popular, boastful, quarrelling kind of guy, affected on his manners and attire. The word has a more urban (or at least suburban) bias.
So I think that JorgeLuis 03:12, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  compadrito is not a matrero 

message: At least one person pionered the use of imaginary reviews before Borges.  Thomas Carlyle.  Sartor Resartus was a book length review of a pretend German transcendentalist philisophical work and biography of its author.  It was considered for a while a real book by some.  It was I think Carlyle's first well known book.  It is considered one of his best and most lasting today.  It dealt with a supposed philosophy of clothes.  Thomas Carlyle although neglected recently has been considered to be one of the greatest writers in english so he can't really be ignored.  He played a large role in spreading the works of the German trancendentalist and romantics early in English.  Both by this work and his still read translations of Goethe.  Some of his other works are a "History of The French revolution" and "On Hero's and Hero Worship".  I dont know if Borges had read him but I imagine he would have at least been familiar with him and this work.  Carlyle was or is considered both a great literary man and a great historian so he would have been right up Borges alley.  It's book length of course not an essay.  Still should maybe be noted.--Case 09:30, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't familiar with this piece by Carlyle, but I'm sure Borges would have been. Borges wrote often about Carlyle and I would imagine he probably had read his works in their entirety (which I haven't). I'll edit the article accordingly. -- Jmabel 18:31, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC)
I found a quote that addresses this influence in Borges' This Craft of Verse. pg 104. (2000).  Borges is speaking of those authors that most influenced him and the formulation of his poet's creed.
"At the same time [1916, in Geneva], I also discovered a very different writer.  I also discovered -- and was overwhelmed by -- Thomas Carlyle.  I read Sartor Resartus, and I can recall many of its pages; I know them by heart.  Carlyle sent me to the study of German.  I remember I bought Heine's Lyrisches Intermezzo and a German-English dictionary.  After a while I found I could dispense with the dictionary and go on reading..."   -- Euthydemos 19:43, Sep 9, 2004
Great, I'll use that. -- Jmabel 23:50, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)
*This comes from the introduction to The Garden of Forking Paths.  The traslation is from Andrew Hurley published by Viking Penguin so I don't know about the legal issues with quoting it in the article.  Maybe theirs a public domain version or someone could use their own translation.  I don't know how you would want to chop it up for the article either.  Its the second of the two paragraphs.
"It is a laborious madness and an impoverishing one, the madness of composing vast books-setting out in five hundred pages an idea that can be perfectly related orally in five minutes.  The better way to go about it is to pretend that those books already exist, and offer a summary, a commentary on them.  That was Carlyle's procedure in Sartor Resartus, Butler's in The Fair Haven-though those works suffer under the imperfection that they themselves are books, and not a whit less tautological than the others.  A more reasonable, more inept, and more lazy man, I have chosen to write notes on imaginary books."
I've googled Fair Haven.  It is by Samuel Butler.  He was an interesting and neglected writer.  He was one of the early secular critics of darwinism and an ideosyncratic christian apologist and anti-materialist.  He wrote "The Way of All Flesh" I think it is one of Modern Librarys top books of the century.  Theirs a decent article in Wiki that refreshed me on him.  Project Gutenberg has an edition of the book with a nice little introduction from someone that sums it up.  It was subtitled: "A work in defence of the Miraculous Element in our Lord's Ministry upon Earth, both as against Rationalistic Impugners and certain Orthodox Defenders, by the late John Pickard Owen, with a Memoir of the Author by William Bickersteth Owen".  Jaques Barzun has a bio of him in From Dawn to Decadence which introduced me before.  He apparently influenced Shaw's and others critique of Dawrinism as having "banished mind from the universe".  He has become more respected as time has gone on, moving out of obscurity during life.  Carlyle's book obviously was much earlier.  I think Butler came up with the idea independently though.  Sartor Resartus is probaly more important as a book but who knows what Borges thought so it should maybe be mentioned.  This is a great quote anyway that clears it up.  Would be great to have at least some of it mentioned in the article.--Case 02:44, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Borges not the first at fake reviews 

message: What hoaxes can we confirm? I have a mind to get rid of that "Quasi-fiction" category, merge it into the fiction, and put parenthetical remarks such as
* "The Approach to Al-Mu'tasim" (hoax review of nonexistent book)
This is distinct from works like "Pierre Menard..." and "Tlon...", which to me are obviously not reviews of real books. In contrast, I think that in the Autobiographical Essay, Borges reveals that a friend of his actually tried to order the book The Approach to Al-Mu'tasim from London, and that he did nothing at first to correct the impression that the book was nonexistent. 
Is the stuff at the back of Universal History of Infamy also counterfeit?
* Did Borges falsely attribute "A Theologian in Death" and "Mahomed's Double" to Emmanuel Swedenborg?
* Did Borges falsely attribute "The Chamber of Statues" and "The Story of Two Dreamers" to 1001 Nights?
* Did Borges falsely attribute "The Wizard Who Was Made to Wait" to Infante don Juan Manuel et al?
* Did Borges falsely attribute "The Mirror of Ink" to Richard Francis Burton et al?
I have also encountered the idea that Borgest falsely attributed "On exactitude in Science" to Suarez Miranda, and that the idea was actually cribbed from Lewis Carroll's Sylvie and Bruno.
What about "An Examination of the Works of Herbert Quain"? At the time it was published, was it clear there was no such author? Likewise, "Three Versions of Judas"—when published, was it presented as fiction, or was it in a context that could lead readers to believe in an author named Nils Runeberg?
Those are the ones I can think of right off. Other known hoaxes or possible hoaxes that you may know of?
It's hard to prove that something doesn't exist. So I'm proposing, in the list of works, to put a parenthetical like
* "On Exactitude in Science" (apparent hoax that Borges falsely attributes to nonexistent author Suarez Miranda)
-munge 17 Sept 2004
: Yes, everything at the back of Universal History of Infamy is counterfeit. For original publication info, browse the Aarhus bibliography. I'm pretty sure most (maybe all) of these come from a column he did for a while  with short reviews, translations of passages he came upon in his reading, I think even some literary gossip...
: As for "On exactitude in Science", I already did an article. Pseudonymous original publication in Los Anales de Buenos Aires -- a literary magazine that I believe (but I'm not sure of this) he was editing at the time -- combined with the fact that he collaborated with Bioy Casares, who shared his sense of humor, suggests it was originally passed off as real. 
Offhand, I don't know the history of "An Examination of the Works of Herbert Quain" or "Three Versions of Judas"; again, the Aarhus bibliography is the first place to start. -- Jmabel 05:37, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)
:Tough site to navigate. Aarhus seems to say, "...Quain" appeared originally in Sur #79, April 1941, pp44-48, but also appeared that year in 1st ed. of El jardín de senderos que se bifurcan (Garden of Forking Paths), month not specified. Page seems to show that JLB did lots of nonfiction in Sur that year, including in #78 and #80, so if it wasn't marked clearly, it could have confused people into thinking "...Quain" was also nonfiction. Got back issues?
:Another Aarhus pageseems to indicate "...Judas" originally appreared in Sur #118 August 1944 pp7-12, and seems to indicate it was not included in Ficciones until the 1956 edition, when the Artificios section was added. (However, the 1956 date for Artificios contradicts the table of contents of the Penguin Collected Fictions, which says it was 1944.) Anyway, JLB wrote various fictions and non-fictions for Sur in 1944, so again, if not marked clearly...
:"Museum" (apparently in 1946, according to my edition of Dreamtigers includes "On Rigor in Science" as well as the following poems and fragments. Were they intended to deceive? How to label them in a bibliography? 
:* "Quatrain", supposedly "From Divan of Almoqtadir El Magrebi (12th century)"
:* "Limits", supposedly by "Julio Platero Haedo: Inscriptiones (Montevideo, 1923)"
:* "The Poet Declares His Renown", supposedly "From the Divan of Abulcasim El Hadrami (12th century)"
:* "The Magnanimous Enemy", supposedly "From H. Gering: Angang zur Heimskringla (1893)" and ostensibly a quotation from "Muirchertach, King in Dublin" (1102) who seems to have really existed
:* "The Regret of Heraclitus", supposedly from "Gaspar Camerarius, in Delciae poetarum Borussinae, VII, 16" (which is almost certainly not about Heraclitus, unless the latter had a crush on someone named Mathilde Urbach, which seems highly unlikely)
:user:munge 06:21, 15 December 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confirmed Borges Hoaxes 

message: The bibliography was recently and anonymously moved out "to reduce size of main article". This strikes me as completely wrongheaded. All it is likely to do is make the bibliography less well maintained and more subject to vandals (because it will be on fewer watchlists). Unless there is clear consensus against me within 48 hours, I intend to revert. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:19, 1 March 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bibliography 

message: For me, at least, the image at the start of the article is showing up horizontally stretched. Does anyone know how to fix this? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:58, 3 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image