Talk:Patience Worth

message: If one would like to call something a hoax, this 
misleading article on Curran is a good start. The author does 
not even provide the simplest analysis of any of Patience Worth's actual
written work. Talk about something smacking of the "flat earth" syndrome of thought,
not only are several facts just plain wrong in this article, also viciously 
misleading is the weak and unsupported idea that Curran was 
a "gifted child" with a "hidden talent for writing".
Total bunk, baloney - prejudicial.
The author claims Patience Worth was critical of "organized religion"
and yet a well known book by Patience Worth was on the life
of Jesus Christ called "The Sorry Tale".  Let me say this: Patience
Worth's writings if anything are among the most spiritual/religious 
writings available coming out of a planchette.To also claim, as this
author claims, that Patience Worth was contemptuous of academic 
posturing - might have a grain of truth - perhaps the type of academic 
posturing so apparent in this incompetent article on Patience. 
One would like to challenge the author himself to write in 60 seconds 
a poem that has a vocabulary taken no later than the 17th century, 
has the profundity of so many  poems written by Worth, and equal 
in intellectual and high literary quality. I surmise this author 
would most likely be incapable of such a feat little alone getting 
facts straight.
John Amenta
Santa Cruz, California
December 27, 2006
Comment: 3/28/07
This article about Pearl Curran and Patience Worth continues to be disturbing to me.  While it is accurate in some parts other parts appear to me to be pure fabrication.  I appreciate John Amenta's comments but he too is not accurate regarding Patience Worth's view or "organized religions".  The key word here is "organized".  One can find in much of her poetry, e.g., "Gloria" a rather contemptuous view of the way religion, i.e., Christianity, was practiced.  This rather long poem is one of her best in which the last two lines are;  "While thy dimming tapers die, and the carved saints stand mute before thy suppliants, what, should His holy step be heard naked upon the stones, with the pattering of sheep beside?"
Prior to this she depicts "mighty walls and towering spires"  "emblazoned scripts depicting fanciful reaction of ancient times"  "smoking alters upon which yellow candles flare burning the sacred air, to send aloft a pungent scent of mouldering decay, blackening with slow sure touch the placid faces of the saints, who with stony visages gaze adown the aisles, unseeing man's exultant joy or his despair."  She continues "For this did saints ope up their veins?  Did martyrs writhe?  And did holy writs by their tedious array enslave the humble sanctity of men?  Or did men, to do their will, write with unalterable tracery law, that ran new within the fluid pressed in fervid troth to God? While blood in lapping waves washed thy very doors, did Mary stand dumb, hearkening to some litany mumbled in a limped tongue, and priest send incense up, or light a taper in thy pit-like dark?  Oh, everlasting God!  I am dismayed, that thy very stones did not gape and fall apart; that every scarlet line within thy illumined records did not spurt in anguish and, bleeding, wipe the "law" from off the page."   Wow! such powerful writing. A "must read" to understand the religious philosophy of Patience Worth.
I didn't mean to quote so much of this poem, but I think that it clearly shows Patience's disdain for "organized" religion.  This is in strong contrast to the spirituality of Patience and her belief in God seen in many, if not most of her poems.  The best ones are too long to quote here but perhaps this short one chosen at random, although not her best, will suffice.  "What is God?  If I were with one word to swing HIM, that word would shatter into less than the atoms of the mists that cling the mountain tops.  If I should speak HIM in a song, the song would slay me!  And going forth, man would become deaf when he listed.  If I should announce HIM with a quill and fluid, lo, the script would be nothing less than eternity to hold the word I would write."
I also would like to comment on the reference to Stephen Braude and  Mia Grandolfi.  Dr. Braude does spend a chapter discussing his opinion about the Patience Worth case.  He is of course a very erudite, learned man and I respect his views however, I would encourage those with real interest in this case to read all of the Patience Worth material for herself or himself either before or after reading Braude's chapter. After all, so much time has elapsed since this case was prominent and Pearl Curran and her compatriots have been dead for more than 65 years, that any current review of this case boils down to opinion.  Dr. Braude is welcome to his opinion but I think he is too committed to an easily accepted scientific view that Pearl Curran MUST be a case of dissociation.  How could he not?  He has his universtiy position to maintain. I don't think that this case is so easily explainable and neither did Dr. Walter Franklin Prince, who studied the case and interviewed Pearl Curran and those who knew her in 1926-27.  He also had sessions in which he spoke directly to Patience Worth, albeit through Pearl Curran.  A better reference would be Dr. Prince's book "The Case of Patience Worth" originally published in 1927 and reissued in 1964.  Copies are available through the internet bookstores.    
Dr Braude recommended that I review the thesis by Mia Grandolfi which I did.  What a disappointment!  She had a golden opportunity to consider the language of Patience, How it varied from work to work and in her conversation and to produce something scientific by documenting language usage of the 17th century.  Unfortunately she chose to take the easy way of filling in the blanks for a thesis and focus on Pearl's own short story about a young woman who feigns another personality, Rosa Alvaro, so that she could have an exciting exotic life with a new boyfriend. Ms. Grandolfi uses this paltry story by Pearl as some kind of proof that Pearl contrived the whole thing. Of course her thesis is her OPINION!  Nothing about it is scientific.   The thesis is bogus!  How it passed the university review team, I 'll never know.
Of course Pearl, when she wrote something under her own name would write about things she knew.  By the time she wrote the story which Ms Grandolfi contends explains away the whole Patience Worth enigma,(When more learned men could not) Pearl was saturated with her current life, communicating with the Patience Worth personality and challenged by many scientists contending that she was a multiple personality or that she was a case of dissociation or that she was quite plainly a fake. Pearl had  more than enough material and suggestions from others to write an entertaining story about a woman who DOES fake another personality.
I have no respect for a university who lets a thesis like the one by Ms. Grandolfi suffice for an advanced degree.  - Amos Oliver Doyle, www.patienceworth.org
3/29/07
Where is the reference of fact that Pearl Curran ever wanted to be an actress?  When questioned in 1926 by Walter Franklin Prince, Mrs. Curran stated that "I had in my teens the desire to be successful as a singer.  Mostly to lift myself out of a hopeless future---not so much for fame itself."  In her brief autobiographical sketch, Mrs. Curan stated that she wanted "to be a prima-donna and loveress!" but she said this perhaps more in jest than in any seriousness.  There is ample evidence that she studied for many years to play the piano and to sing. 
Where is the reference of fact that Patience Worth "could speak directly through Curran using her vocal cords"?  Mrs. Curran stated that she had pictorial visions over which she heard the voice of Patience Worth "either interpreting or giving me that part she wishes to use as story."  At no time in the accounts given by Curran did she ever suggest that Patience Worth spoke directly using her (Curran's) vocal cords. Eventually Pearl Curran abandoned the use of the OuiJa board or used it simply as a way to focus and clear her mind.  Pearl did not need the board to communicate with Patience and later on she just repeated  the words she heard in her mind from Patience or typed them on a typewriter.  - Amos Doyle
NOTHING BETTER TO DO?
May 2, 2008
Really Tom, your additions of "supposed" and "ever" do not add substantively to this article.  It is not questionable that communications did occur between Patience Worth and Pearl Curran.  What has been questioned by some is just who or what was Patience Worth.  There is no question that communications did occur and that they occurred over a period of almost 25 years.  The communications were not "supposed".
It is true that no good record of Patience Worth having lived in England in the latter part of the 1600s has been found to date.  But really now, is it necessary to insert the word "ever" been found?  In my research I have found that perhaps Dorset was not the shire in which Patience Worth had lived.  The adjacent shire, "Devon" was more likely to have been the home of Patience Worth.  She said " 'twere a wing"  "There be a twist."  If one looks at a map of England (not the United Kingdom) one can easily imagine a twisted wing at the bottom of England extending out into the sea where both Dorset and Devon are located. She said there be a deer---fallow.  Deer of course contains the first two letters of Devon and fallow contains the "f" which was in the earlier spelling of Devon.  Fallow also means "reddish" and Devon is currently known for its cattle of a "reddish" color.  Devon had more people with the surname "Worth" living there than in any other area in England at that time. The "House of Worth" was there.  And, based on Pearl's discernment of Patience leaving her home in England for America, Devon is the more likely candidate since the Port of Plymouth is in Devon which was a major port of departure to the new world during the 1600s and the estuary into the interior of the Devon countryside would more likely be able to be used by a large three-masted ship as described by Pearl Curran in the discernment than any "river" in Dorset. Remember, Patience Worth never said that she was from Dorset England, all she ever said was that "England be the stem 'pon which I bloomed."  It was Casper Yost, the Currans and others who deduced that Patience was from Dorset.  There are records of Worth families living in Devon during the 1600s and there are records of several people with the name Patience Worth living in New England during the end of the 1600s and during the early 1700s but none of them is thought to be the Patience Worth of Pearl Curran.  Patience was a common virtue name of the Puritans during that time.  One needs to remember that Patience Worth was purported to be unmarried and with no decendants.  She held no title to property. There are no census records of that period in which to look for her name and women were routinely not included on the ships' rosters unless they were married.  Whether or not records of her existence have "ever" been found is a non issue.
I think you should delete your additions. - Amos Doyle  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.220.223.22 (talk) 20:58, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  I agree with the responder to this atrocious entry on Curran 

message: Categories have been changed in accordance with the recent Arbitration on the paranormal, specifically 6a) Adequate framing, and Cultural artefacts. Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 21:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Category change

message: The following is nothing more than publicity for a theatrical production that hasn't even been done yet. It should be deleted.  It has nothing to do with the life of Patience Worth or Pearl Curran.  If this is allowed to stay, then every artistic work, book, play, song, poem etc. ( including the one perviously posted about the Smithsonian article, subsequently deleted) about Patience Worth and Pearl Curran should be included also.  This is a self-serving post.  Who cares who wrote it, directed it, did the set and lighting and was the Artistic Director?  That is not encyclopedic information relevant to Patience Worth. 
"Playwright Michelle Carter was commissioned by San Francisco's Symmetry Theatre to write a play about Pearl Curran, her family, and the impact of Patience Worth's appearance upon their lives. The play, Patience Worth, premiered at Thick House in San Francisco on September 10th, 2011. It was directed by Erika Chong Shuch and the cast featured Megan Trout, Warren David Keith, Elena Wright, Jessica Powell, and Alona Bach. Set and lighting design by Allen Willner. Chloe Bronzan, Artistic Director." - Amos Oliver Doyle  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.27.16.37 (talk) 06:07, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Publicity Gimmick 

message: Dr. Prince was born in Detroit Maine and received his S.B. degree in 1896 and Ph.D. in 1898 at Yale University.  In between those two degrees he received a B.D. from Drew theological Seminary (1897) and for a number of years held pastorates in churches in Maine, Connecticut, New York, Pennsylvania, and California.  His last church post was as Director of Psychotherapeutics at St. Marks Episcopal Church in New Your City.  Dr. Prince was not a priest.  The title Dr. is correct.Amos Oliver Doyle (talk) 17:12, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Walter Franklin Prince Revision is Incorrect 

message: Dr. Irene Hickman earned a degree as Doctor of Osteopathy.  To remove that credential demeans her as an educated person.  That revision should be undone.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by AmosDoyle (talk • contribs) 17:37, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been deleted, no reference was given, Hickam was a pseudoscience proponent who claimed she could communicate with spirits, no reference was given, it was original research and undue weight to a fringe point of view. Ivy46 (talk) 19:19, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

text: Ivy46:  You don't know me and I don't know you.  Now we can play this game of undoing each others changes if you wish.  You have made some claims about me personally which I hope you are prepared to defend.  Wikipedia articles must present a neutral point of view, that is must be balanced and not be a biased opinion of one person.  The Wikipedia Patience Worth article has stood the test of time and was linked by many sites before you started meddling with it.  Dr. Irene Hickman D.O deserves to have her credentials noted as they lend a degree of credibility to her book about Patience Worth.  Those credentials are facts not opinions and they are not biased in any way. Look them up! They do suggest that Dr. Hickman was not just a silly old lady off of the street.  To eliminate her credentials does a great disservice to a woman of integrity, education and service to humanity. Whether something is a "fringe" point of view is your opinion and your opinion should not be part of a Wikipedia article.  Put your credentials up against Dr. Hickman's and perhaps I will reconsider.   173.19.252.132 (talk) 03:02, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dr. Hickman 

message: Joe Nickell is not a credible resource for a link.  He obviously provided a biased opinion about Patience Worth as did many of the newly inserted references and speaks for an organization with a documented history of bashing anything outside of mainstream belief.  Jastrow especially provides nothing but his opinion in his 1935 book Wish and Wisdom.  He makes many claims for which he provides no evidence and has no way of knowing, for example he states that, "It is then my hypothesis ---and admittedly such---that Mrs. Curran...has a vivid receptiveness of both eye and ear, favoring rich imagery.  ...has retentive memory.  She holds in mind the sequence of her tale, and of several tales; like a blind chess player at a group of boards, she continues the moves and passes from one game to another...." Now does this sound like any scientific explanation with any evidence provided?  Jastrow's chapter about Patience Worth is entirely his own opinion which he freely admits, admitting that it is only his hypothesis.  This is not a valid reference.
If the link to Nickell's web site is included, then the link to my website should not be removed as it may provide some balance to Nickell's website. Amos Oliver Doyle (talk) 18:21, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Your website is not a reliable source, it comes up dangerous for malware and it's a fringe pseudoscience website that supports a fringe spiritualist interpretation of Patience Worth. Ivy46 (talk) 19:17, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

text: Ivy46:  Neither is the CSI website a reliable source.  Please provide you credentials for making the statements you do.  The Patience Worth story has baffeled learned men for many decades.  Please provide credentials the substantiate that you are more knowledgeable about this topic than Dr. Walter Franklin Prince, Irving Litvag, and Dr. Stephen Braude and myself for that matter. How much effort have you put into studying this case?  Have you read all of the writing of Patience Worth?  The webside http://www.patienceworth.com attempts to provide a format to allow discussion of issues surrounding the Patience Worth case.  If you are in disagreement with what is on the site please comment appropriately and discuss the issues intelligently in the space provided for you on that site. It is your opinion that that site is a "fringe pseudoscience website"  Tell me, who made you God?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by AmosDoyle (talk • contribs) 03:16, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

text: Those are fringe sources. Stephen E. Braude believes himself and his wife to be psychics. His views have been rejected by the scientific community. For scientific sources please see:
*Joseph Jastrow. (1935). Patience Worth: An Alter Ego in Wish and Wisdom: Episodes in the Vagaries of Belief. D. Appleton-Century Company. pp. 78-92
*Lyon Sprague de Camp. (1966). Spirits, Stars, and Spells. New York: Canaveral. p. 247
*Robert Goldenson. (1973). Mysteries of the Mind: The Drama of Human Behavior. Doubleday. pp. 44-53
*Milbourne Christopher. (1970). ESP, Seers and Psychics. New York: Crowell. pp. 128-129
*Andrew Neher. (2011). Paranormal and Transcendental Experience: A Psychological Examination. Dover Publications. p. 218 
Ivy46 (talk) 05:18, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  References and Links 

message: Obviously the "evidence" provided by Joe Nickell is no evidence at all!  Just take a look at it. "The weight of the evidence—the lack of historical record for “Patience Worth,” the fantasy proneness of Cur­ran (consistent with producing an imaginary “other self”), the writings’ questionable language, and the evidence of the editing and revision process—indicates that Patience was merely a persona of Curran’s. 
The 'lack' of something is never considered evidence in a case like this and Mr. Nickell from his vantage point more than 76 years after Pearl Curran's death has no way of knowing whether or not Curran was 'fantasy prone' and 'questionable language (whatever he means by that) is not evidence that Curran was a fraud, in fact that 'questionable' language is evidence that she was not a fraud as it was unlikely that Pearl Curran could have made up or imagined legitimate English words and word usage of more than 250 years prior to her birth.  Come on now, how is proofing of the writing of Patience Worth prior to publishing 'proof' that she was making it all up? The Nickell website article is pure garbage.  The quote of his should be deleted.  It is laughable and embarassing to anyone who seriously considers usage of the English language to be a way of conveying meaningful thoughts. Amos Oliver Doyle (talk) 18:51, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Ivey:  You don't have to keep repeating yourself.  Since you don't know me you can't possibly know that I am a spiritualist or not.  And so what?  Are spiritualists and priests (As you erroneously claimed Dr. Prince to be)  forbidden to participate in Wikipedia? I am however very knowledgeable about the case of Patience Worth having studied it for over 50 or more years.  I have accumulated original copies of much of the reference material concerning this case and have reviewed the original documents of Pearl Curran and Patience Worth stored at the Missouri Historical Society in St. Louis.  I have read everything that Patience Worth wrote and published. What have you read?  Have you been to St. Louis to review the original documents?  You have no authoritative position to advise me not to edit this article. Your references consist of one to several pages.  How about citing the 509 pages in Dr. Prince's book The Case of Patience Worth published by the Boston Society of Psychic Research in 1927., a much more reliable resource than those you cite which were published in 1966, 1973, 1970, and 2013 more than 30 years after Pearl Curran died! Dr. Prince was there at the time and spoke directly to Patience Worth and Pearl Curran on many occasions.  It is assinine to disregard his analysis of this case. Please address the issues I brought up about the "evidence" provided by Nickell; focus on the article rather than on me. Amos Oliver Doyle (talk) 03:52, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Evidence Provided by Joe Nickell 

message: Why was the more-or-less neutral opinion of the learned professor, philosopher and educator Stephen E. Braude, Ph. D. removed and replaced with the clearly biased Nickell quote?  What happened to Irving Litvag's opinion? He studied the case and wrote a very credible book about it.  Where is Dr. Walter Franklin Prince's opinion and oft repeated quote?  Opinions of individuals, no matter what their credentials should not be part of an encyclopedic article.  Anyone can get an article published; anyone with enough money can get a Ph.D; and anyone can have an opinion.  Nickell's article is from a biased website---CSI.  Opinions are not facts or evidence.  Wikipedia's credibility is already in the toilet.  Opinionated articles do not help as any person educated in the topic can see right through such slanted opinions. No serious reputable scientist, writer or educator would use a Wikipedia article as a source of information, at least the smart ones would not admit it. Amos Oliver Doyle (talk) 23:47, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Stephen E. Braude is a pseudoscientist. Amos Oliver Doyle you are a well known spiritualist supporter and you own a fringe website claiming Patience Worth was in contact with spirits , you shouldn't be editing the article per Wikipedia conflict of interest. Please stop adding in undue weight to fringe theories. There is overall consensus from the scientific community that Patience Worth was a fictitious creation from Curran. Ivy46 (talk) 18:53, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  You negativity reviewed Professor Daniel Shea's book The Patience of Pearl: Spiritualism and Authorship in the Writings of Pearl Curran because it rejected the spiritualist interpretation  . Amos your agenda is clear, you have conflict of interest in this article and are obviously very biased by your spiritualist beliefs...  Ivy46 (talk) 05:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  You write "You are flat-out wrong when you state that there is "overall concensus from the scientific community that Patience Worth was a fictitious creation from Curran." Who are in the "scientific community" to which you refer? Many people of credible education and position actually have no good explanation about Patience Worth." The scientific and reliable sources are in agreement that Patience worth was nothing more than a fictitious creation of Curran. The reason you don't accept this is because of your spiritualist beliefs, no matter the evidence you are still going to go on believing and ignoring any critical or skeptical material on the subject, but this is not a forum to discuss this. I am not here to debate you on Curran. The scientific references have been added to the article and that is that, you don't own this article, you ignore Wikipedia policies on fringe theories. Ivy46 (talk) 05:33, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

text: Doyle see my latest edits, I have restored all your material. I can't be bothered with this, I don't have time for this website anymore. I apologize for some of my comments about you, I deleted them... but you publicly posted your name so I have not broken any rules. I believe you have strong spiritualist views and connections to the subject. If you want a good book to read on spiritualism I suggest The Physical Phenomena of Spiritualism (1907)  by Hereward Carrington... he admits 98% of both physical and mental phenomena in mediumship is fraudulent. Take care. Ivy46 (talk) 09:25, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dr. Stephen E. Braude 

message: Steve the Skeptic (talk) 21:33, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Patience Worth case solved

message: Professor Shelling noted that the language employed by Patience Worth was not from any historical period:
Milbourne Christopher. (1971). ESP, Seers & Psychics. Crowell. p. 129.  "Psychologist Joseph Jastrow asked his friend Professor Shelling, a specialist in the Elizabethan period, for his opinion. Shelling replied: "The language employed is not that of any historical age or period; but, where it is not the current English of the part of the United States in which Mrs. Curran lives, it is a distortion born of superficial acquaintance with poetry and a species of would-be Scottish dialect... the borrowing of some dialect words and the clear misuse, misunderstanding and even invention of many others... There is an easy facility of phrase almost wholly in our contemporary idiom and showing nowhere the qualities of the language of Elizabeth's or any previous age." There is no evidence that a Patience Worth lived in England or America during the time she gave as her life span. I believe that Mrs. Curran that July evening discovered not a spirit but a way to express herself." Steve the Skeptic (talk) 18:03, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Shelling

message: Whilst researching this case I am getting shades of others. Similar cases of unconscious personality are Rosemary Brown (also a medium) and Christine Beauchamp (investigated by the neurologist Morton Prince). I have added a "See also" section. Steve the Skeptic (talk) 18:04, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Similar cases

message: For those who want to believe what Steve the Skeptic says, go at it.  For those who want a more balanced account of the Patience Worth case see http://www.patienceworth.com. Amos Oliver Doyle (talk) 16:34, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Consider The Source

message: ...Why isn't there one? Whoever may be behind it, there is a body of works, and it should be listed in its own section.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E0A:159:3CE0:1866:E29F:4285:F89D (talk) 12:15, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bibliography/writings section 

message: The 'About Pearl Curran' section appears to have zero citations as of 25 October 2022. This section on her early life has some language that makes me wonder about the sources.  The second paragraph in particular calls for some citations.  The claims "Curran was sensitive... considering herself to be ugly... She had a short attention span and read very little..." may be perfectly true, but can anyone cite the sources that support this?  Kdevans (talk) 18:49, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations needed, early life