Talk:Robert Dudley, 1st Earl of Leicester

message: Just as a matter of interest, what is the source of the evidence for the breast cancer theory? Deb 12:38 21 Jun 2003 (UTC)
: According to Elizabeth the Queen, by Alison Weir, a Professor Iain Aird suggested in in 1956. The only primary evidence given in that book is that Alvaro de Quadra, a Bishop and a Spanish ambassador, wrote in April 1559 of her having "a malady of the breast". She implies that other sources confirm some kind of illness, and doesn't give details as to why breast cancer in particular was the conclusion. Onebyone 01:03, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: In the fictional book (based on the true story) of "The Virgin's Lover", by Philippa Gregory, it states that rumours were spread of Lady Amy Dudley being sick with breast cancer. Scotteh 13:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And it claimed that Elizabeth's party was most likely involved in her death, or suicide, however it is well known that we can't always trust Gregory's works historically; they are part fiction...Sweetlife31 (talk) 06:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, as I recall it, they started in the book that Amy's "heart was breaking". It was implied she might be poisoned, but I don't remember any mention of anything relating to breast cancer. And Philippa Gregory's work is not to be taken that seriously--she's well-known for her, er, "creative" changes to history.68.79.11.47 16:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Could be. Both his sons were also called Robert, weren't they, so it would be an easy mistake to make. Onebyone 01:05, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

text: They were friends from childhood. Scotteh 13:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, because Dudley was a bit low-born, it is probably more likely that Elizabeth and he became friends later on (probably around the time he sold some of his estates and gave the money to her). Kings generally didn't allow their heirs (even if Elizabeth was considered a bastard) to socialize with the descendants of traitors when the traitor had only been one's grandfather....68.79.11.47 16:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment by [[User:Deb|Deb]]

message: Was Leicester really the last governor before the German occupation?--Anglius 03:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Governor of the Netherlands

message: Being as how we're not mindreaders who lived with Elizabeth I (or I hope we aren't), how can we truly say she wished to marry him? She may have flirted with him a lot, but it isn't as if she said, "I wish I could have married Robert." I think we should change the first sentence, and I will do so if this isn't replied to soon.68.79.11.47 16:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Who the heck are you? Anyway, I second your statement. Scotteh 13:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baaah 

message: I changed his birthdate from June 24 1532 to September 7 1533. In Elizabeth Jenkin's Elizabeth and Leicester she adresses the issue and cites several sources that state Robert and Elizabeth were born on the same day. Since I could only find one mention of the June 24 birthday and no comtemporary sources on it, the September 7 date seems much more likely.
Leicester's date of birth is highly debatable. Contemporaries believed that he was born on the same day as Elizabeth, but this may have just been a fanciful rumour. June 24 the previous year is a recent calculation that seems more probable - especially since the earl was supposed to be older than her. It's a very debatable topic, and nobody can be sure, but don't you think it would be too much of a coincidence that they were born on the same day? I think the date should be kept as June 24, but the article needs to mention the question of his birthdate somewhere.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by BRCScriptor (talk • contribs) 12:06, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Birthdate

message: There seems to be some confusion about the demise of Robert Dudley's first wife, Amy Robsart. Paragraph two in the intro states "He is said to have poisoned his first wife Amy Robsart.." while the first paragraph in "Relationship With Elizabeth" says "She had previously suffered from breast cancer, but she was ultimately killed by falling down a flight of stairs in her house."  --72.68.227.212 (talk) 18:24, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death of Amy Robsart 

message: The article is substantial and has good pictures and references but has problems with an unencyclopedic subjective tone (the tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, see Neutral point of view) and many peacock terms. Hekerui (talk) 23:48, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for assessing the article. I wonder, however, why articles like Robert Devereux, 2nd Earl of Essex, and especially, William Cecil, 1st Baron Burghley got B-class. The latter used to be a most partial, unreferenced eulogy lifted entirely from the 1911 EB, containing hardly any factual information. There were mainly unreferenced attacks on other people. Regarding "peacock terms", they are well referenced, and they are not many (and one can hardly dispute that Leicester was "one of the most important" statesmen of Elizabeth's government, notwithstanding the 1911 EB!). I cannot see why the tone should be "subjective": I mentioned different opinions, e.g. regarding Amy Dudley's death. Anyway, I personally will not change anything in the tone of the article, as I struggled very much with it already (the tone I found here was really unencyclopaedic!), other than perhaps adding new aspects. Buchraeumer (talk) 11:50, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: These two articles were not correctly assessed. If you have more questions, feel free to contact me on my talkpage. Hekerui (talk) 12:09, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

text: It is subjective due to the choice of words, as for example in: "The couple paid dearly over the years ...", instances of "obviously", "The reputation of Leicester has suffered immensely under the influence of a libel commonly called Leycester's Commonwealth ..." etc. Hekerui (talk) 12:36, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, Hekerui, I didn't mean my comments today here so much directed to you (and I didn't mean to be rude). I meant rather the occasional passers-by. That's why I still have to clarify some points regarding "tone": That Leicester's reputation was very, very strongly influenced (negatively) by Leycesters Commonwealth over the centuries is surely "established academic opinion"; even Conyers Read acknowledged that, and he found it necessary to write about Leicester's death that "Indeed, England was well rid of him" in his standard biography of Cecil (so much for professorial neutrality). I tried not to use the word "obvious", but it can be useful for nuances: "her obv.ly very intimate relationship" was meant in the literal sense: obvious to the contemporaries. If one writes that she had a "very intimate relationship", then this is biased (although, according to scores of contemp. sources, true) and so forth... Buchraeumer (talk) 18:09, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't take offense. You gave an explanation, problem is, when you have to explain, the language is not clear and should be worked over. Hekerui (talk) 18:17, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: Robert Dudley was also Vicechancellor of Cambridge University from 1563 till 1588. This is not in the box, but I am afraid, I don't know how to put it in there. Also, I don't know the preceding holder of that office, neither the successor. So, if somebody wants to find out, please help! Thank you.
Buchraeumer (talk) 22:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: List of Vice-Chancellors of the University of Cambridge does not include Leicester, and from that list it seems to be an annual appointment.  Perhaps your source is confusing Cambridge with Oxford? - PKM (talk) 02:44, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I confused it myself, sorry! He was High Steward of Cambridge University from 1563-1588, not Vice-Chancellor!  also has it. Really embarrassing, but I didn't mention any Cambridge honorifics in the article, so no great damage, I hope. As regards the Offices box, I would like to point out that he was also Baron of Denbigh from 1564, along with being Earl of Leicester. The dating of the office of "Lord Steward of the Royal Household" is problematic, as historians don't really know when he got it. Dating ranges from c.1570 till 1587! I've given sources where this is discussed in a footnote. For the purposes of this box here, I don't know what to do. Perhaps simply nothing. Buchraeumer (talk) 14:13, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, I don't have anything immediately at hand on predecessors/successors for those offices, and I'd say just leave them out for now.  :-) - PKM (talk) 02:53, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Help for "Academic Offices" welcome!

message: Very detailed, fun to read....why isnt this a featured article? 77.250.25.165 (talk) 17:52, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Because these things take time; I suspect it will be before too long. Buchraeumer: I'm impressed by the bibliography, but I notice you haven't included Simon Adams' entry on Dudley in the new Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. The on-line version of this is a pay service, and you might not have access, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. Lampman (talk) 19:24, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's free if your local library subscribes. Log in from home using your library card. --Doris Kami (talk) 01:43, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excellent Article 

message: I'd would really regret to produce an edit war over this! But please, Doooglas, understand that the text in the lead of an article is not normally footnoted, as far as (uncontroversial) facts that are treated further down in the text are concerned. In the article section "Governor-General of the United Provinces" your issue is treated. The whole issue of his title in the Netherlands is a perfect example of Elizabeth's difficult character. I suppose the only thing that was uncontroversial about the entire episode was her boundless fury over Leicester's acceptance of the title Governor-General, although, it is true (but seldom mentioned), that the same title was earmarked for him in the Treaty of Nonsuch. Elizabeth's righteous indignation is mentioned in every summary or biography, so we cannot exclude it here in the lead! Buchraeumer (talk) 14:15, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't worry, no edit war! Having looked into it in the section you refer to, it's clear that Elizabeth approved the position of Governor General for Leicester as part of the Treaty of Nonsuch. Indeed, the section says that it was later issues of sovereignty that angered her as opposed to his acceptance of the post. There is no cited evidence that "accepting the post of Governor-General of the United Provinces" "infuriated his Queen". If, however, there is citable evidence that you can add showing the act of accepting the post, that she herself offered, directly angered the Queen, then I'm happy with your revert. Doooglas (talk) 15:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the key sentence here is (italics): "It was clear that the Earl of Leicester would go to the Netherlands and "be their chief as heretofore was treated of", as he phrased it in August 1585.[214] He was alluding to the recently signed Treaty of Nonsuch, in which his position and authority as "governor-general" for the Netherlands had only been vaguely defined.[215]" The Dutch would not accept less than Governor-General at Nonsuch, and, typically with  Elizabeth, the actual meaning of the title was kept deliberately vague. But it was also the title which infuriated her. As regards Elizabeth (but not the Dutch), the treaty was old paper when Leicester went to the Netherlands in December 1585; Elizabeth's own instructions did only see him as Lieutenant-General and were (as it appears) in contradiction to the treaty which she had signed some three months earlier. It's a bit as it was later with the execution of Mary Queen of Scots: Elizabeth was in a dilemma, couldn't make up her mind, signed the death warrant and lastly blamed everyone else. Interestingly, in both cases, Elizabeth's fury was sparked principally because she was concerned about her international reputation. Buchraeumer (talk) 17:52, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:   I hate to be pedantic but you have not cited evidence that "it was also the title which infuriated her". The facts remain that she signed the Treaty referencing the title (however ill-defined) and so the evidence is that the acceptance of the title did not infuriate her. You should really revert back to my more neutral edit or clarify that it was the subsequent level of sovereignty desired by the Dutch that infuriated her. Doooglas (talk) 10:44, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I quote from Elizabeth I of England on 10 December 2007, 16:24, the date the article was kept as a WP:FA (undeservedly, if you ask me): "He enraged Elizabeth by accepting from the Dutch States General the post of Governor-General, which Elizabeth saw as a Dutch ploy to embroil her further in her affairs." The footnote gives: Haigh, Christopher. Elizabeth I. Harlow (UK): Longman, (1988) 1998 edition. . p. 137. (Incidentally, I did not copy the sentence in this Dudley article here from the Elizabeth article). Buchraeumer (talk) 11:49, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fair enough! Thanks for that and apologies. It just appeared a bit subjective - given that the treaty was only signed shortly before... and there was no citation. Perhaps you could add that? Doooglas (talk) 23:19, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Elizabeth's fury

message: The language is still unencyclopedic and the GA class questionable imo. Just one example picked at random: "His wife's and his father's shadows haunted his prospects." (I first thought this was an assertion about ghosts on some of his property, but this is merely flowery unencyclopedic language.) Hekerui (talk) 18:28, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagree. English allows and is enriched by succinct and accurate figures of speech. Otherwise, what would you do, a sociologic and psychiatric analysis of just what is meant by that figure? How would we obtain any data on that? The meaning is just as clear as it can be. I wouldn't consider it flowery. This article is a work of art, among the best I have seen. That is not because it is flowery and literary but because it is a good mirror of the moving biographic details. I have to confess, as I read it, "mes yeux pleuvent." Works of art make you laugh and weep, and I've done both on this. It's been rated good, it is good, it gives us something to shoot for in the other articles, let's leave it. One more thing, and I hope I can say this without being too insulting. If you interpreted this as an assertion of belief in ghosts, I think you would benefit by longer study of English and English culture. It's a subtle point, no doubt; figures of speech generally are.Dave (talk) 19:50, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: QED. Hekerui (talk) 23:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: QED, hey? Actually, I'm a bit confused by your use of "flowery." I looked at that passage rather carefully and I definitely did not see anything that might relate to botanical reproductive organs; no petals, no sepals, or any carpels. Are any of those words Linnaean coded names? Were the Dudleys a clan of secret botanists using their own cipher? Was Robert known for his magnificent anthers as well as his eyes, or what? Should we put on a tag asking for the expansion of the botanical aspects, to be filled in by you? You must know what you mean since you used the word. Well, enough of this reductio. Fare thee merry old well. We still use "ye" round heeyuh, disguised as written y'. Thee (du) is gone, however. We got the Dutch ja (yeah), so at least we have that in common. Excuse, me, I'm still getting choked up by Bess having to go on without Eyes. I'm a great fan of Lady Jane as well.Dave (talk) 05:29, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

text: however this is bad English: "on suspicion to be involved".  It should read "on suspicion of being involved."  
4.249.63.202 (talk) 23:08, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Language

message: The article makes absolutely no reference to Leicesters role in crushing the Northern Rebellion of 1569-70. This really ought to be included, since I gather from my limited reading that he was the leader of the queens army. Spidergareth (talk) 12:29, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The leaders of the Queen's army were Robert Dudley's brother-in-law Henry Hastings, 3rd Earl of Huntingdon and his brother Ambrose Dudley, 3rd Earl of Warwick. Leicester himself was part of the London-based government during the rebellion, he was not in the field. Buchraeumer (talk) 12:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Northern Rebellion

message: Though the article itself if amazing, I find the number of succession boxes at the bottom of this article to be excessive. Many of them are, in fact, useless, since  Leicester's predecessors and successors are not named. We see only a big, black "Vacant" instead of those names. The succession box for his peerage title also seems unneccessary. If he was neither preceded nor succeeded by anyone, do we really need a succession box? Surtsicna (talk) 17:42, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This strikes me as an overly narrow interpretation of "succession". Just because someone was not immediately succeeded in a peerage title does not mean they did not hold the title or that the title was not, theoretically, hereditary. We've seen many such titles dissolved and recreated over the years, some of them several times. I would support inclusion of these, regardless of succession. If there was no immediate successor (or predecessor), then that information too is important to readers. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 17:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: If there was any kind of a predecessor or a successor at any point (such as after a vacany, abeyancy, or forfeiture), the box would make perfect sense. In this case, the box lists none. Does it make any sense to have a succession box if there is no succession to illustrate? Surtsicna (talk) 18:55, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know what you understand under a vacancy, but Leicester's nephew, Robert Sidney, 1st Earl of Leicester, was the next holder of the title; it was a new creation, but of course he got this particular earldom in consideration of the family relationship. Buchraeumer (talk) 22:48, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: To reiterate my point, "no immediate successor" is a valid answer, and that information may be just as valuable to a reader as any other entry that could exist.  So in my opinion, yes, it does make sense to have a succession box for hereditary titles and political offices even if there wasn't any successor. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 22:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: To reiterate my own point, it does make sense to have a succession box when there is no successor if there is a predecessor. If there is neither predecessor nor successor, then there is no succession, obviously. If there is no succession, a succession box is a meaningless waste of space. The succession box, as it stands now, gives the reader no clue about Leicester's nephew. How does that nephew's existence make the box useful if the box does not mention the nephew? Whether the box should, in fact, mention him is another matter. Surtsicna (talk) 23:17, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

text: I frankly don't understand your removal of the Denbigh title, with this edit summary: "This, at least, is against common practice. The two titles were held at the same time and were passed on in an identical manner (i.e. not at all). Thus, there is no need for the lesser one (nor for the greater one, but that's another point)." Perhaps you could explain? Buchraeumer (talk) 22:58, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

text: I meant Surtsicna's edit (edit conflict). Buchraeumer (talk) 22:59, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

text: I totally agree with Wilhelm Meis. Buchraeumer (talk) 23:00, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Subsidiary titles are not included in succession boxes unless the way they passed from person to person differs from the way the main title passed. See, for example: John Spencer-Churchill, 10th Duke of Marlborough; David Cholmondeley, 7th Marquess of Cholmondeley; John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer; Bertrand Russell, 3rd Earl Russell, etc. That is the standard practice. Surtsicna (talk) 23:17, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Succession boxes 

message: Just skimming through this article i've seen a couple sentences that kind of make sense, but are awkward to read like "She giving him reason to hope, he was a suitor for the Queen's hand for many years." I feel like this should be "For many years he was a suitor for the hand of the Queen, who had given him reason to hope."
Also: "The craft of the courtier Robert learnt at the courts of Henry VIII and Edward VI." Again, it's a bit weird. Maybe change to "Robert learnt the craft of the courtier at the courts of Henry VIII and Edward VI."
These sentences (and I'm sure there may be more) are just a bit confusing to read and at first I didn't think they made sense. I hope this helps.
Otherwise, magnificent article! I'm researching Leicester's early life for something I'm writing and it's among the best info I can find on the web.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by BRCScriptor (talk • contribs) 12:18, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wording? 

message: I am a little surprised at the pulling of the gallery I posted yesterday. The Dudley monuments at Warwick represent a widow's valedictory statement. As such I don't understand how they can be said to "toally break up" a biographical article, especially when placed between a section on the man's death and a section on later assessmanents of him. I think the choice of themes in the inscription and the decorations are highly significant and refelect or comment on many of the points made in the article. For example, I find the inscription's insistence on his pedigree and his father's achievements, to the extent of overloading the syntax, highly significant. I think there is a much greater emphasis on his role in the Netherlands - not an entirely successful venture - than we might expect. I think the rapacious attitude to heraldry, taking in emblems of even the remotest relevance, is noteworthy. There is also the simple fact that Lettice Knollys chose to be buried and memorialised here, although she had 3 husbands, and that she chose to be portrayed - very convincingly and surely from life - at the age she did, when she lived to be 90.
I am pleased to see that there are literate and vigilant people looking after this page, although clearly I have offended by contributing to what is no ordinary wikipedia page but personal property. Rest assured I shall stay away from now on. Sjwells53 (talk) 10:48, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Gallery

message: Under Love affairs and remarriage, it says:
Was Henry Sidney Leicester's brother-in-law, or were Henry Sidney and Leicester's brother-in-law two different people? It's difficult to tell because the rest of the article was poorly punctuated.
Thanks. Inglok (talk) 11:08, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sir Henry Sidney was his brother-in-law. Buchraeumer (talk) 11:31, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Inglok (talk) 12:47, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  One person or two? 

message: The comma in "Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester" and similar cases is  part of the name. Some writers omit it altogether ("Robert Dudley Earl of Leicester" etc.). Wouldn't this be the better altenative, instead of treating this part of the name as an independent part of the sentence? Buchraeumer (talk) 11:35, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid you are mistaken. Robert Dudley is the name and Earl of Leicester is the title. They do not together make one name and are not treated as such. One is treated as the appositive of the other. If there is to be a comma separating them, there must also be another punctuation mark afterwards – a comma, full stop or dash, for example. To separate such a title with commas is far more common than not to, and it makes it easier for the reader to make sense of the text. I recommend against leaving out the commas altogether. Inglok (talk) 12:44, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Syntax