Talk:Muhammad/Archive 20

message: When will this page become unprotected? There doesnt seem to be much coherent discussion taking place on here so... is this one of those situations where the page never becomes unprotected? Fennessy 18:21, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This page probably won't become unprotected because it's a frequent target of vandalism  Frotz 18:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Unsemi-protected?  It's happened when full protections have expired, and yes, the result hasn't been pretty.  Once we 've resolved this editing dispute, we can try a test unprotect, if there's a desire to. WilyD 18:54, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unprotected?

message: * I don't know whether there are some new aspects for the article on the mainpage.
:Austerlitz -- 88.72.21.39 18:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some information from Encyclopedia Britannica 

message: According to Ahmad Deedat the prophet Muhammad "PBUH" is mentioned in the Bible in (Deuteronomy 18:17–9)
according to the bible (To Moses) I will raise up for them a Prophet like you among their brothers; I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to My words that the Prophet speaks in My name, I will call him to account.” (Deuteronomy 18:17–9) 
"A Prophet like you among their brothers” is a Prophet who will come from the line of Ishmael, since Ishmael is the brother of Isaac, who is the forefather of the Children of Israel. The only Prophet who came after Moses and resembled him in many ways, for example, in the bringing of new laws and the waging of war on his enemies, was the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). The Qur’an points to the same fact, We have sent to you a Messenger as a witness over you, even as we sent to Pharaoh a Messenger.( (Al-Muzzammil 73:15Abouilyass 09:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there a proposal for this article in that?  If so please restate it, otherwise you may have the wrong place. gren グレン 23:04, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Amicuspublilius must read again visit:- http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/deuteronomy/deuteronomy18.htm
18 I willd̪ raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen, and will put my words into his mouth; he shall tell them all that I command him. 
19 If any man will not listen to my words which he speaks in my name, I will make him answer for it. 
20 But if a prophet presumes to speak in my name an oracle that I have not commanded him to speak, or speaks in the name of other gods, he shall die. 
Now...
1  surly  the  man mentioned in 18&19 is not like in 20 because there will be a huge contradiction, in 18&19 he is the prophet that according to bible:(If any man will not listen to my words which he speaks in my name, I will make him answer for it) so how could you equal both in what logic
2.But if a prophet not the--Abouilyass 19:50, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

text:  I'm sure most Muslims would not want this reference in the article :  "17 And the Lord said to me: They have spoken all things well. 18 I will raise them up a prophet out of the midst of their brethren like to thee: and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. 19 And he that will not hear his words, which he shall speak in my name, I will be the revenger. 20 But the prophet, who being corrupted with pride, shall speak in my name things that I did not command him to say, or in the name of strange gods, shall be slain."  Just a thought. :)  Perhaps that online site does not have access to the whole passage.  If it were speaking of Muhammad it would not be very respectful of him: the subtlety hinges on "A" and "THE", and "THE" prophet in the passage is referred to as a pagan and a liar.  If you do cite this, I request that you cite the whole passage.  Peace.  Amicuspublilius 04:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal 

message: Okay, to resolve this conflict, let's go through the disputed sections one at a time.
The difference is the target for Bilal, one version points to Bilal, one to Bilal ibn Ribah.   Given that Bilal is a disambiguation page, my supposition is that Bilal ibn Ribah is the better link.  Does anyone object? WilyD 13:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey WilyD! Thanks so much for helping us with moving forward from our current dead end. --Aminz 19:14, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: One chunk at a time

message: *The satanic verses incident (and also Hijra to Ethiopia subsection; alongside the public boycott against the clan of Banu Hashim) to be moved to/discussed in the Muhammad#Opposition_in_Mecca section. 
It seems that there is no disagreement here. --Aminz 05:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change #1 

message: In this section, we can use the following quotes:
:Quote from Welch:  The Qur'anic verses were "not based on a dogmatic conception of monotheism but on a strong general moral and religious appeal.. Key themes in these early recitations include the idea of the moral responsibility of man who was created by God and the idea of the judgment to take place on the day of resurrection. To these are added vivid descriptions of the tortures of the damned in the hellfire and the pleasures of the believers in Paradise. Another major theme of Muhammad's early preaching, before the onset of strong opposition from the powerful merchant families of Mecca, involves the signs of God in nature that should convince people who will take the time to reflect that there is a power greater than man's, and that the wise will acknowledge this power and cease their greed and suppression of the poor. There is also a stress on the wonders of everyday life, especially the marvellous phenomenon of man. The religious duties that the Qur'an imposed on Muhammad and his followers during the Meccan years were simple and few in number: one should believe in God, appeal to Him for forgiveness of sins (XXIII, 1-11), offer prayers frequently, including long night vigils (XI, 114; LXXIII, 20; cf. LXXVI, 25 f.), assist others (especially those who are in need), free oneself from the love of delusive wealth and—what is significant for the commercial life of Mecca—from all forms of cheating (XXVI, 182 f.; cf. LV, 7-9), lead a chaste life, and not expose new-born girls to die in the desert, a barbarous custom that was sometimes practiced in Arabia in Muhammad's time (for reasons of poverty according to VI, 151 and XVII, 31). These are some of the qualities of the truly pious person who in the Quran is sometimes called a muslim (LXVIII, 35; XXI, 108, etc.) sometimes a Hanif (X; 105; XXX, 30; XCIII, 5; cf. VI, 79 and the article), but more frequently simply a believer. 
: And the quote from Peters: The messenger of God- God bless him and preserve him-summoned to Islam secretly and openly, and there responded to God whom he would of the young men and weak people, so that those who believed in him [or "Him"] were numerious and the unbelieving Quraysh did not criticize what he said. When he passed by them as they sat in groups, they would point out to him and say "There is the youth of the clan of Abd al-Muttalib who speaks (things) from heaven." This lasted until God (in the Quran) spoke shamefully of the idols they worshiped other than Himself and mentioned the perdition of their fathers who died in disbelief. At that they came to hate the Messenger of God - God bless him and preserve him - and to be hostile to him. (Ibn Sa'd I/1, p. 133).
Arrow, if you have any other quotes, please add them here and the we will go ahead and summarize them in the article. --Aminz 05:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ch2. Quotes for use 

message: We start the section in the opposition section by mentioning how and why the persecutions began. This is related to part of Arrow's addition that explains how the persecutions began.
Arrow, please let me know if you agree with this.
==== Ch3. Quotes for use ====
;Welch says:
 "This became still more the case when the full consequences of Muhammad's preaching became clear, that is, when he openly attacked the polytheism of his native town...Meccan merchants then discovered that a religious revolution might be dangerous to their fairs and their trade.
;Robinson says:
 One apparently reliable source even states categorically that the persecution of the members of the sect started 'when Muhammad mentioned their idols.'...The beginning of this hostile attitude was marked by the revelation abrogating the 'satanic verses'.
;Peters says: The Quran thus characterizes the Quraysh as stubborn reactionaries, but it seems to be more than just blind traditionalism. The verse just cited categorizes the opponents of the Warning as "the rich among them," or "the well-off," which has suggested to some that there was a strain of social and economic tension in the Quraysh resistance. The "rich among them" might indeed resist the oft-repeated warning that each man was but a custodian of his wealth and would be called upon to give and account of his stewardship on the Day of Judgment... there is no naming of names in the Quran, no direct criticism, and Muhammad certainly gives no impression that he was zealous to turn the money-changers out of the Temple or that he was essaying the role of a Meccan Savonarola. We obviously don't have the whole story, but on purely "spiritual" grounds, the eventually violent Meccan rejection of Muhammad remains as mysterious as the kind of opposition that led to the execution of Jesus... Other less spiritual motives have been advanced... Some have argued that it was the fear that Muhammad would overturn the prevailing combination of piety and commerce that constituted the Hajj, whereas others have insisted that there is no evidence that Muhammad had any intention of such, nor that the Quraysh anticipated the dismantling of the religious and commercial arrangement bringing them whatever degree of prosperity they enjoyed. It is indeed true that Muhammad showed no sign of ever intending entirely to abolish the Hajj as such, but there are at least suggestions that he may have had problems with some of the Meccan ritual proper... We can not tell if those anxieties were religious or commercial, but Meccan polytheism and its cultus seem to have been at issue in Muhammad's preaching and the Quraysh reception of it.
;The relevant passages from our current opposition section:As the ranks of Muhammad's followers swelled, he became a threat to the local tribes and the rulers of the city, whose wealth rested upon the Kaaba, the focal point of Meccan religious life, which Muhammad threatened to overthrow. Muhammad’s denunciation of the Meccan traditional religion was especially offensive to his own tribe, the Quraysh, as they were the guardians of the Ka'aba.
Arrow, if you have more quotes please add them here --Aminz 05:24, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change #3 ; How persecutions started 

message: ;Welch says:
 "This became still more the case when the full consequences of Muhammad's preaching became clear, that is, when he openly attacked the polytheism of his native town...Meccan merchants then discovered that a religious revolution might be dangerous to their fairs and their trade.
;Robinson says:
 One apparently reliable source even states categorically that the persecution of the members of the sect started 'when Muhammad mentioned their idols.'...The beginning of this hostile attitude was marked by the revelation abrogating the 'satanic verses'.
;Peters says: The Quran thus characterizes the Quraysh as stubborn reactionaries, but it seems to be more than just blind traditionalism. The verse just cited categorizes the opponents of the Warning as "the rich among them," or "the well-off," which has suggested to some that there was a strain of social and economic tension in the Quraysh resistance. The "rich among them" might indeed resist the oft-repeated warning that each man was but a custodian of his wealth and would be called upon to give and account of his stewardship on the Day of Judgment... there is no naming of names in the Quran, no direct criticism, and Muhammad certainly gives no impression that he was zealous to turn the money-changers out of the Temple or that he was essaying the role of a Meccan Savonarola. We obviously don't have the whole story, but on purely "spiritual" grounds, the eventually violent Meccan rejection of Muhammad remains as mysterious as the kind of opposition that led to the execution of Jesus... Other less spiritual motives have been advanced... Some have argued that it was the fear that Muhammad would overturn the prevailing combination of piety and commerce that constituted the Hajj, whereas others have insisted that there is no evidence that Muhammad had any intention of such, nor that the Quraysh anticipated the dismantling of the religious and commercial arrangement bringing them whatever degree of prosperity they enjoyed. It is indeed true that Muhammad showed no sign of ever intending entirely to abolish the Hajj as such, but there are at least suggestions that he may have had problems with some of the Meccan ritual proper... We can not tell if those anxieties were religious or commercial, but Meccan polytheism and its cultus seem to have been at issue in Muhammad's preaching and the Quraysh reception of it.
;The relevant passages from our current opposition section:As the ranks of Muhammad's followers swelled, he became a threat to the local tribes and the rulers of the city, whose wealth rested upon the Kaaba, the focal point of Meccan religious life, which Muhammad threatened to overthrow. Muhammad’s denunciation of the Meccan traditional religion was especially offensive to his own tribe, the Quraysh, as they were the guardians of the Ka'aba.
Arrow, if you have more quotes please add them here --Aminz 05:24, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ch3. Quotes for use