Talk:History of religion in the United States

message: I created the initial page as imports from loc.gov and census.gov sites. All public domain. Please feel free to edit it for accuracy, grammar, format and general copyed. Davodd 10:31, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)
:While I hesitate to make the direct claim that this article fails as NPOV, the parts about the Founding Fathers look like they come close.  I feel like this article is just barely dodging NPOV.  Does anyone else feel this way?  Rhesusman 22:41 17 June 2005 (UTC)
Seems to me much of the article is trying to lead reader to conclude that religion is important in republican gov't. The gov't site took that approach too - perhaps I could find it again --JimWae 00:23, 2005 Jun 18 (UTC)
:I agree.  A lot of articles have content which makes pointing out NPOV easy.  This is tough, but I can't help but think that I know what the author's position on the church-state controversy is, and that can't be good for NPOV.  Rhesusman 22:23 7 July 2005 (UTC)
::There's another problem with this article.  It makes no mention of the growing numbers of religious minorities like Muslims or Buddhists that have been the results of conversions or immigration in the past hundred years.  This further leads me to believe that there's a political agenda behind this article.  I would think someone motivated to be purely descriptive would not omit this.  Rhesusman 06:24 8 July 2005 (UTC)
The article is hopelessly POV.  Its hard to express precisesly how, but as you read you get bombarded with biased wording and language. Like Rhesusman, I can tell the author's position on a number of issues just by the phrasing that is being used. IMO, if you can do something like that, its a pretty clear sign that the article is POV. There is also the occasional passage that even with my limited knowledge I can tell is a misrepresentation at the very least. For example, the passage "The efforts of the founding fathers to find a proper role for their support of religion..." seems to imply that all or virtually all of them had some great interest in the "support of religion", when I know that a remarkable number of them were Deists and pretty much actively opposed to organized religion. The Deism section, incidentally, is also pretty poor, failing to so much as mention that Deists believe in a non-interventalist god or the writings of Thomas Paine, and I can't help but feel this sort of thing is intentional. Nothing major, but a pretty consistent pattern. Someone with more time and knowledge than me needs to give the thing a major overhaul. Be brutal, IMO a lot of sections need to pretty much dissapear and be replaced by completely new writing that gives the same (or better) information. In any case, I have given it the POV Check - it does nothing but hurt wikipedia's reputation to have articles like this without it (with the implication that it is considered NPOV), it will encourage people to help edit it, and I don't think anybody is really arguing it is okay as is. As far as non-POV issues go, a lot of it just isn't worded in the style wikipedia usually adopts. That sort of thing can easily be fixed when the rest of it is being reworded. 24.156.86.181 05:04, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Creation of article

message: Unless I miss my guess the religious history of america did not end in the year 1899, where is the rest of the article?! The Fading Light 02:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uh... Where is all of the 20th Century/21st Century Info?! 

message: I'm compiling data for my final paper in a seminary/master's level course that has a lot to do with US Church History, and some of the facts presented in this article are completely false.  The biggest one is this:  While there were some communities within individual colonies that shared common faith, overall church attendance in the colonies hovered near 10%.  I'm considering starting a new page on here when I'm done to present my research.  It was very disappointing to see that so much of what we grow up learning through grade school and high school - even undergraduate work - regarding this nation's founders, is simply fabricated.  Regardless of one's own personal inclinations, it is not good news to learn we have been lied to.
Godsmaverick 15:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Each page is an article. Don't start a new page unless it is on a new subject. Can you imagine the confusion if there were multiple articles on the same topic?  If you have corrections to make, please do so as long as you can reference published information.  Data from an unpublished thesis would not be very helpful.  --Blainster 21:21, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect History 

message: The discussion of 19th Century religion in the U.S. is far too limited.  It states, explicitly, that evangelical Christianity was the dominant religious influence in the early-mid 19th Century, which is misleading, to say the least.  There ought to be some discussion of major 19th Cen. religious trends, such as the immigration of large numbers of Catholics to the US, the "Deism" practiced by Thomas Jefferson, and others.  The bias toward evangelical Christianity on this page is disturbing. Cntreras 10:58, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  19th Century Discussion is very limited 

message: Oddly, part is stolen from http://www.richmondhillhistory.org/clergy.html
Go figure.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.215.38.170 (talk) 05:23, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plagiarized 

message: Spiritualism is completely missing from the article. This is also an American religion, founded in New York. See: http://www.nsac.org/history.htm  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cfhillen (talk • contribs) 16:01, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Omission

message: The source article cited, Roman Catholicism in the U.S., states that Catholics were less than 2% of the population, yet someone changed that in this article to read "less than 1%." That is intellectually dishonest, to cite an original source article, and to then edit its content.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.145.71.178 (talk) 17:28, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I note that the edits of this percentage have fluctuated between 1 and 4 percent.  Your own edits have been both 2% and 4%.  I don't have the book cited, but Googling got me an essay, Let None Dare Call it Liberty, The Catholic Church in Colonial America, by Marian T. Horvat, Ph.D., which states, "...the first general report on the state of Catholicism by John Carroll in 1785...estimated the Catholic population in [the 13] colonies to be 25,000. ...Considering that the population in the first federal census of 1790 totaled 3,939,000, the Catholic presence was less than one percent, certainly not a significant force in the original 13 British colonies."  So let's be accurate.  Is it 4%, 2%, 1% or less than 1%?  I'm not an expert on Catholicism, so I'll leave it to someone else, but please don't alter what a source specifies...   Eastcote (talk) 20:04, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

text: I believe the source used in the article, and the quote above, support "less than 1%".  By anyone's math, 25,000 is less than one percent of 4 million. Eastcote (talk) 22:43, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Eastcote is right. Note that the Catholic figure includes black Catholics.  Rjensen (talk) 22:50, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catholics as percentage of colonial population 

message: According to the verbiage under deist, Washington adhered to deism (or Unitarianism)...  Where did this come from?  Looking at the George Washington wikipedia page tells a completely different story: "he was primarily affiliated with the Anglican and, later, Episcopal church."  That indicates that he was a deist?  Further, the article points to these comments by Chernow: "Before the Revolutionary War he was Anglican – Church of England – which meant after the war, he was Episcopalian. So, he was clearly Christian....He was quite intensely religious, because even though he uses the word Providence, he constantly sees Providence as an active force in life, particularly in American life. I mean, every single victory in war he credits to Providence. The miracle of the Constitutional Convention he credits to Providence. The creation of the federal government and the prosperity of the early republic, he credits to Providence... I was struck at how frequently in his letters he's referring to Providence, and it's Providence where there's a sense of design and purpose, which sounds to me very much like religion..."  Does this look like Washington should be placed under the deist section or that POV was poking it ugly head up?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.14.168 (talk) 09:28, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: David L. Holmes, in The Faiths of the Founding Fathers, argues that Washington's religion was not as strong as you think it is. Holmes concludes Washington was a deist. Others disagree. There's no "right" answer—respectably scholars can be found on both sides of the debate. Binksternet (talk) 16:17, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: If this is the case, should the Washington (and Adams) pages be changed accordingly? 72.161.12.157 (talk) 00:55, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  George Washington a deist? 

message: I have tagged the new article Historical religious demographics of the United States for merger into this one.
The demographics article relies on a single primary source, and fails WP:NOTSTATS because it lacks either context or secondary commentary to interpret the data.  Merging it to this article would at least add context. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:12, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical religious demographics of the United States 

message: The entire history of native religion is dismissed with a single paragraph before launching into a history of  christianity? What could be more biased?
Change the article title to history of European Religions in the US, if that is the real topic.
FigureArtist (talk) 22:09, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Native religion is well covered in many articles (on each major tribe); at present here are a few thousand adherents so it  gets appropriate attention. Rjensen (talk) 02:30, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: the article follows the standard scholarly sources like Ahlstrom.  Rjensen (talk) 00:14, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it doesn't follow Ahlstrom. Ahlstrom places the beginning of the religious history of the American people with Leif Erikson, not the Mayflower. He also devotes two full chapters to discussing the Catholicism of New Spain and New France before turning his attention to the Reformation in England (let alone the arrival of English Protestant settlers in America). Furthermore, Ahlstrom's subject is different from the subject of this article. Ahlstrom is discussing the religious history of the American people, a group he seems to define as European immigrants in North America. This article purports to discuss the history of religion in the United States — a place, not a people. If the article does not begin with the 1776–1783 period, then it should begin with the earliest identifiable religions of the area, even if those religions get no more than a brief hyperlinked mention. Lereman (talk) 20:31, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it does Follow Ahlstrom. Ahlstrom "A religious history of the American people " (1976) begins with an opening "European prologue" section dealing with the religious background in Europe, and other major European colonizing powers (England, France, Spain ) introduced their Catholic or Protestant religions into the New World in the context of building empire, commerce and religion. That material is very well covered in Wikipedia's other articles.  Ahlstrom then turns to colonial New England.  As for 1776 -- the standard practice among historians and reference books is to write histories of the United States that cover the colonial era. The complaint here is "Not npov: Pre-Columbian Religion excluded". Ahlstrom  excludes the pre-Colombian religions. Likewise so does  The Religious History of America: The Heart of the American Story from Colonial Times to Today by Edwin S. Gaustad and Leigh Schmidt (2004). The pre-Colombian religions are all thoroughly covered in other Wikipedia articles dealing with pre-Colombian populations. Rjensen (talk) 20:59, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: "The pre-Colombian religions are all thoroughly covered in other Wikipedia articles dealing with pre-Colombian populations" — which should be mentioned and linked to at the start of this article. After all, the standard practice among historians and reference books is (note the present tense) to write histories of the United States that at least mention that Europeans didn't show up to empty shores on the western Atlantic. To offer an (admittedly derivative) example, see History of the United States. Lereman (talk) 21:11, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not npov: Pre-Columbian Religion excluded 

message: Rjensen, 
"The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material".
"Wikipedia articles must not contain original research", the key word being "contain".  WP:NOR applies to inclusion, not to removal.  By the reasoning in your edit summary, all removals for lack of citation (or for some other reason) would be invalid because only one editor "originally" noticed the problem and acted. (And it would be a silly demand to insist on a citation for every asserted fact that X doesn't meet some standard for inclusion, citations simply cannot exist for such new facts!)
The graph was removed because evidence was not provided that supported "sharp rise".  It purported to support "sharp rise", but the sharp rise assertion was dubious and removed for that reason. (It was in fact shown to be a decline as a fraction of the population in the 1st period).  Evidence was provided (by you) for the data points themselves, but not for the assertion that the data represented a "sharp rise".  Although it's not technically required, very good evidence for dubiousness was provided, but trying to discredit that evidence (of dubiousness) is not the evidence of notability and verifiability you need to justify inclusion.
If you want to include, you must show that the data is verifiable (which you've already done) and that it's applicable to the "sharp rise assertion" (which is harder).  Proving verifiably that this particular data indicates a sharp rise in religion in the U.S. would be hard for the reasons already given.  However, you might find other data that does make that point, if you look.  It would probably be more productive for you to look for different data that does meet standards for inclusion in making the point of a "sharp rise".
I don't have access to the source you cite.  I just believe you that the data plotted in the graph is in that source.  It's an important point that if the source simply presents the data and doesn't assert that it indicates a sharp rise in the popularity of religion, then that's (probably) reliable.  It the source of the data says that the data does indicate a sharp rise in popularity of religion, than that particular assertion is not reliable(!).  Citing the source for it's data would be (likely) reliable, but citing the source for that (problematic) conclusion based on the data would be unreliable.
Ubewu (talk) 19:24, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The RS call it "rapid growth." the data plotted is the number of local churches (the cenus did not keep track of church MEMBERS until 1850). We do have Methodist MEMBER data. 58,000 members in 1790,  258,000 in 1820 and 1,661,000 in 1860 (=28.6 x the 1790 number and 6.4x the 1820 number). [Census Bureau, Hist Stats US (1976) p 392]. The national population  was 3.93 million in 1790, 9.68 million in 1820, and 31.4 million in 1860. (=8x the 1790 number and 3.2x the 1820 number). Methodists grew by 28 times, overall population grew only 8 x. So Methodists grew about three times faster than total population, 1790-1860 and twice as fast as the population 1820-1860. QED. For 1780 there were 8500 Methodists, says  Noll calls it a "spectacular expansion" (p 217). Rjensen (talk) 21:00, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I tracked down the original source of the data in the graph: it's from Edwin Scott Gaustad, Historical Atlas of Religion in America (2nd ed. 1976) pp 4 (for 1780) and p 43 (for 1820, 1860).  Gaustad, Historical atlas  has assembled a great deal of historical pre-1900 data-- he has lots of info, state-by-state, on the number of local churches. Unfortunately, he provides much less detail on the membership data. The Methodists were very methodical in collecting and reporting their membership data – much more so than anyone else.  According to Gaustad's chart p 52 Methodists reached the 200,000 membership  level in about 1816, and the million mark about 1842. They passed the Baptists about 1822. The Baptists reached the 200,000 level around 1805, and the million membership about 1860. The Presbyterians reached the 100,000 level about 1825, and the 1 million level around 1878. Lutherans were about 20,000 1800, and reached the million mark about 1885 the Episcopalians grew very slowly – they reach the hundred thousand mark in the 1850s, and the million mark around 1920. The Lutherans reached 100,000 around 1835, and thanks to the heavy German and Scandinavian immigration reached the million mark by the late 1880s. Alas, Gaustad does not use many tables – he prefers charts and maps with lots of dots showing where each church was located.  On page 37, he says "The expansion, both numerical and geographical, is dramatic; it is epic." Rjensen (talk) 21:39, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:NOR]] applies to inclusion, not to removal.  Burden of evidence is on restoration. 

message: The Separation of church and state should be mentioned specifically in the lead section, per WP:LEAD. Binksternet (talk) 06:39, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Separation of church and state

message: "The religious history of the United States began with the first Pilgrim settlers who came on the Mayflower in the year 1620."  Yeah, if we ignore 13 years of worship in Virginia before the pilgrims arrived. 155.213.224.59 (talk) 17:52, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Johnny Come Latelies 

message: about  , would you be interested in coming up with an entry on the subject of Native America religion? Otherwise simply deleting it seems to rather fit the pattern, no? --Smkolins (talk) 14:56, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree there should be a section.  It should take a 300-year perspective.  I will try my hand at it. Rjensen (talk) 14:58, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  examples to consider including borrowing from American Indian Religious Freedom Act, Cultural assimilation of Native Americans and American Indian boarding schools, Native_American_civil_rights#Religious_rights, Native American self-determination… seems like plenty of material for a large section all by itself. Then the inclusion of the proposal at the Parliament might feel less undue and would be in context more? (though not in the icumenical section perhaps.) --Smkolins (talk) 15:02, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  and Constitution#Iroquois_.22Great_Law_of_Peace.22 (the Law of Peace being fundamentally a religious source).--Smkolins (talk) 15:07, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The last item =  politics and is rejected by most historians. Rjensen (talk) 15:49, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  (woops, misread, you mean the constitution affect)… so… it is a minority view and include that as the minority view… but only relevant in the context of documenting the Iroquois in this overall work of Native American religion…. --Smkolins (talk) 17:08, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

text:  "[Ben Franklin's] famous Remarks Concerning the Savages of North America (Franklin 1987:973–4; P. Wallace 1945: 225–26). This piece represents Franklin's continued interest in the Iroquois, it demonstrates his esteem for the native culture, and it exemplifies his use of that knowledge for social criticism." - so taking the right tact with the relationship with the constitution (that Franklin's comments relate to it, that is) I think is ok.--Smkolins (talk) 17:31, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: we're talking religion only here. and we have VERY limited space. Rjensen (talk) 18:32, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: When dealing with religion, there is a lot on the Prophet and Tecumseh (and far less on the Iroquois).  Tenskwatawa, (Shawnee Prophet) launched a revival for quite a few tribes besides Shawnees....I have not heard of a corresponding religious movement for Iroquois.  Rjensen (talk) 19:24, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  inclusion of Native American religion 

message: I recommend including a section describing current trends, especially the trend toward secularism, now claimed to be America’s Largest “Religious” Group. See, for example: http://www.prri.org/research/prri-rns-2016-religiously-unaffiliated-americans/  Thanks! --Lbeaumont (talk) 15:54, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Treatment of secular trends, now claimed to be America’s Largest “Religious” Group 

message: I made several edits to this page. They were reverted. I’m back, and I would like to discuss why some of these edits were reverted. I understand why the front section edit was reverted, (It’s rather unorthodox) but the other edits corrected content that seemed very biased. Could you explain why you reverted those edits?71.238.19.60 (talk) 20:58, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP:BRD the discussion part 

message: There appears to be no mention of the rapidly growing number of Muslims - a quick search for the word "Islam" returns only 5 results, of which 3 are in the article itself.
One significant period of growth of Islam in America was the work of Malcolm X (though technically under the Nation of Islam). 22 million black Muslims by 1964 if I recall correctly? 79.66.216.122 (talk) 22:37, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  to stub the Islam section? 

message: I noticed that the user @Mikeblas justifiably removed some undefined references added by one of my edits. Thank you. I believe they were added by this edit . I don’t know what to do because I didn’t add these references; I copy- pasted certain sections elsewhere to fit in with the timeline structure of the article and made a few tiny other edits. I think that Wikipedia’s program replaced those references, but something went wrong. Please don’t delete those sections; they have references, which were just lost during a clumsy edit. I’m thinking I could try to copy paste references from old versions of the page or ask a more technical- minded Wikipedian for help. Do you have a solution? MaroonDichotomy (talk) 16:17, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I have fixed this. Ignore this section. MaroonDichotomy (talk) 02:39, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undefined References