Talk:Romani people/Archive 3

message: The article should be under Gypsies since that is the common English word for Gypsies.
:No, it should be right where it is. There's a redirect from Gypsies to this article, so no problem with readers finding it. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 17:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can click the "Edit this page" tab at the top of the page to open the page in editing mode. In the edit box near the bottom, you just type in the new information. If you're just replacing the old numbers, you don't even have to know anything about how the page is formatted. If you need to add new figures, you may be able to figure out how to format them by following existing examples. You don't really need to know HTML or anything like that. Does this help? ==ILike2BeAnonymous 02:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  But you'll need to cite the source of the figures. Are you getting the information from a website, or some other source? -- TheMightyQuill 09:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Other

message: I know that the Roma are associated with thievery for a reason, that being that many of them are involved with such activities, however I also believe that, if anything, the Roma who have nothing to do with such activities are what is being glossed over. I've noticed that so many people generalize when it comes to this group of people and I can't help but be a little frustrated with it because it's so misleading to others. Also, their social status in their countries of residence as well as their monetary stiuation must play a huge part in this. After all, many Roma are struggling financially and it doesn't help that there is so much discrimination against them in European countries. When people are desperate they go to more extreme measures to survive, it makes sense. I don't mean to support robbery, but, if so many of the Roma are in such a bad situation as what I suspect, then they may feel very well that their situation can't get any worse, and that they have nothing to lose, so they take risks and disregard others in order to survive. Maybe I'm just cynical, but I think that most humans would go to those same measures, would they not? They have found their buffer between themselves and poverty/starvation/homelessness/etc. and though robbery is considered evil to most, it still remains a matter of opinion. I believe it is wrong as well, don't misunderstand me, but that does not change that it is an opinion. -Rei
82.143.162.72 15:08, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course it's relevant, because we're not talking about just "sex", we're talking about marriage (you know, monogamy)...  It's relevant because this is a vestige that has died out everywhere else in Europe in the last 500 years, but you wish to present it as some kind of aberrancy they just came up with out of the blue, and that's just one sided and misleading.  ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:14, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  By your logic, then, putting the Romany in concentration camps was not persecution either, because that too was law enforcement.  But then, you strike me as being one of those types who pretend all that never happened.  People like you should be resisted at all times and at all costs, and I'm going to revert every single one of your racist, hatemongering edits to this article until you find something better to do with your life than persecute people and monger hate for being different. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 19:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I suggest you read what you just wrote back to yourself, since you are the one who is primarily deleting things that don't agree with you.  I am more of an inclusionist; I will happily include one viewpoint so long as the other is also included.  You apparently only want one to be included, yours.  Also I note you have received warnings for vandalism and not adhering to consensus on your talk page.  ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 22:50, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crime discussion/glossing over other elements 

message: Correct me if I'm wrong but are there not two different races of Indians? Aryans and Dravidians? I believe that the article was referring specifically to the northern, lighter skinned Aryans when it mentioned a possible connection between the Indians and the Roma.
Also, if my awareness of geography serves me correctly, it is not impossible to get to Europe from India without sailing. In fact, thus far, I was under the impression that they didn't use water as means of transportation at all, if the theory that the Roma and northern Indians are related is correct. -Rei
:Actually, recent evidence both genetic and otherwise has shown that the two 'races' actually meld together to a large degree and that the Dravidians are actually proto-Caucasoid peoples who genetically closely resemble European populations but also vary and obviously tend to be darker skinned and have varying features at times as well.  In reality, most of the modern Indo-Aryans are mixed with these peoples and the Dravidian genes are found as far west as the Persian Gulf and Arabia and as far east as Indonesia.  In the case of the Gypsies, they probably have traces of some aboriginal origin, but it's probably pretty minor in comparison to people in eastern Pakistan where their language appears to have emerged.  70.122.73.105 20:25, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, yeah? Well, guess what: my cat has fleas. Guess you don't know what a non sequitur is; you may want to look it up. --ILike2BeAnonymous 21:41, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ORIGINS IN INDIA 

message: 194.95.59.130 has added three books into Reference section:
 Auzias, Claire. Les funambules de l'histoire. Baye: Éditions la Digitale, 2002. 
 Genner, Michael. Spartakus, 2 vols. Munich: Trikont, 1979-80. 
 Roberts, Samuel. The Gypsies: Their Origin, Continuance, and Destination. London: Longman, 4th edition, 1842.
Quite a few of edits by 194.95.59.130 are childish vandalism but at least one book here (by Roberts) does exists. If someone can make qualified judgement on relevancy/existence these edits, please do. Pavel Vozenilek 23:34, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please check edits by 194.95.59.130  

message: I'm not sure if it's only because it is late and I'm tired, but this article seems to me very sloppily written.  I even found parts of it difficult to understand (for example, the music section) because of how poor the writing is.  It seems rather like this page was written by someone who doesn't speak English very fluently, but considering how many times it has been edited that is hardly an excuse.  Also, better citation of sources and some more explanation of certain things would be helpful.  Again, in the music section, it is not enough simply to say, Roma music is the inspiration for salsa, mambo, flamenco, bolero, country, jazz, classical ballet, electonica, and funk (I'm exaggerating of course), without listing sources and explaining how.  It would be more useful to say something like, according to Dr. So-and-so, Roma pirates introduced the complex rhythms of Pakistani folk music to the natives of Costa Rica, which, mixed with African slave music, produced the following dance rhythms: mambo, cha-cha, etc.  The biggest thing though is just to go through and make sure everything is coherent!
: The article gets several edits each day but so far no one found time to spend with thorough copyedit. If you have knowledge of the topic (or know someone such) please do this. Pavel Vozenilek 00:24, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please edit this article! 

message: A colored map would be nice to see where Roma are concentrated.
66.205.108.8 06:06, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  map 

message: I could find no evidence of this part-sentence so have removed it for now.
"to the beginnings of Heavy Metal and Progressive Rock genius like Uriah Heep, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple among others."
As for the Elvis connection, I could only find the one site I have linked which asserts it to be true. Can anyone substantiate/debunk this?
Guinnog
"Roma People were influential in the creation of what was the true  Hippie-Gypsy Movement Music that later developed as the basis of Classic Rock from Elvis Presley (according to http://www.imninalu.net/famousGypsies.htm, of roma ancestry)."
I've taken these out as well, as one sole webpage is as likely to be wrong as right I'd say. Thoughts?
:I've read somewhere that Elvis was in part a descendant of Scottish Travellers (though I can't recall where I've read it). Even if it is true, it still doesn't make him a descendant of the ethnic Roma per se, in my opinion. Jonas Liljeström 19:43, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice job. The article is full of false info unposible to verify, so don't be afraid to remove it. BTW, on Wikipedia we usually sign with "~~~~". Try it out. It will be replaces with this: "Dijxtra 19:13, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elvis, Uriah Heep etc? 

message: One sentence reads:
:Most Roma abandoned their nomadic way of life long ago, and a good representation of the way of life of Balkan Roma today can be seen in the films of the famous Bosnian director Emir Kusturica.
I would say that Kusturica's films are not really representative, especially compared to documentaries such as Pretty Diana. Any objections to remove this reference to Emir Kusturica, and reinsert it in a section about Roma in arts, or something? --dcabrilo 04:15, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No objections. This article is in really bad shape and anything you do is improvement :-) --Dijxtra 11:15, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kusturica reference 

message: Is it me or is the following 'Because of their nomadic lifestyle and unwillingness to be integrated, there has been a great deal of mutual distrust between the Roma and their more settled neighbours.' a sweeping generalisation and POV? Specifically the unwillingness part - perhaps some of the unwillingness is due to the persecution of settled communites based on fear of the unknown etc. I would like to suggest a removal of 'unwillingness' and substitute something like: ' and the difficulties with integration that nomadism can present' any thoughts? ophelia
:I totally agree. Please, feel free to change it. If you don't, I will! :) --dcabrilo 19:47, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed. Be bold! Guinnog 20:08, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ophelia comment

message: How useful is the list of names for Roma in all different languages? I mean, there is no such list for Germans, Jews, etc. We have a Wiktionary for such info, and it's probably more appropriate for list of ethnic slurs anyway. Besides, almost all names are derived from Rom or German Zigeuner (Cigani, Cigány, Sigøyner, Цыгане, Çingene). Anyway, I'll be bold, remove the list, and include some useful info under the Name section. --dcabrilo 10:34, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine with me. I've put back the important clarification about Rome etc. Guinnog 11:04, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree also. It would eventually have gotten too long anyways. --Khoikhoi 22:32, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Since the list of names is growing again I suggest to create leaf page for the names. While not that much useful it should stabilize the main article a little bit. Pavel Vozenilek 14:15, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of names 

message: Would a short of list of Romany loan words into English be appropriate in the language section? Guinnog 18:07, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Any examples? --ILike2BeAnonymous 19:51, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is also a special language article (Romany language, I think), where it would be more appropriate. This article right now is cluttered as it is, though some loan words used in Eastern Europe by majority peoples may be appropriate to illustrate culture. --dcabrilo 21:08, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Romany loan words?

message: There's been a lot of recent tweaking and attempts to polish what amounts to an undocumented and unsupported assertion: that the Roma themselves practice discriminatory practices against non-Roma (one author went so far as to compare it to S. African apartheid). I took this out, not because I know it to not be true, but because it has no supporting evidence here. (I've also never heard of this alleged practice, which doesn't mean it doesn't exist, of course, but still ...). If anyone can support this claim, they can put it back in. --ILike2BeAnonymous 19:55, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, sorry; I also looked at your "reference", and it's crap. One anecdote from a writer with a quite obvious axe to grind does not "supporting evidence" make. But hey, thanks for playing. --ILike2BeAnonymous 22:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  As the user who removed your 'SA Apartheid' comparison, let me reply. Of course the C4 film maker had the right to state his opinions, and so did the Hootsmon journalist have the right to give his reaction to the TV programme. But to leap from that to a comparison to Apartheid (something I personally witnessed at first hand btw) is ludicrous. Nowhere in the ref you gave was that comparison made, so that is your own POV. Unless you can somehow justify it (and, as it is arrant nonsense, this is unlikely) it should stay down.
If you can make a more encyplopedic and less POV statement to summarise the TV show, feel free to stick it back up there.
Guinnog 17:22, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

text: That is a very good explanation, let's see if I can add to it a little.  In Leviticus of the Hebrew Bible, a set of ritual purity laws is given, that are so strict, if a person even sits on a couch that a "defiled" person previously sat on that day, he too will become (ceremonially) "defiled".  This is very similar to the concept that is still practised by the Romany today.  "Racism" is something else altogether. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:20, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, I should have amended my remarks to read "that may be practised by some Romany today." ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:44, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

text: You know, people, 82.143.162.72 is right: sometimes you should call a spade a spade. Alright, then: you (82. ..., or however you'd like to be addressed) are clearly just an asshole who just doesn't like gypsies and hippies. That much is plain from your so-called "contributions". --ILike2BeAnonymous 07:31, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

text: *Il2ba, could we keep this civil? No matter the disagreements, name-calling (e.g. "Asshole") is not helpful. --Improv 01:10, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To answer this: I am not, and do not intend to be, civil to racist assholes. Playing nicey-nice does no more to solve problems than does outright violence. Plus, I don't care much for these little visits from the "civility police".
To whoever felt compelled to remove these comments, along with others in a massive sweep: what's up with that? Tidying up an article, that I can see. But these discussion pages are not supposed to be "sanitized" like that. Pleast do not do that again. --ILike2BeAnonymous 18:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alleged Roma "apartheid" 

message: I heard they have no "official" religion, e.g. this is neither christianity nor islam as indicated because they adopt the religion of the country they live in. Brandmeister 18:08, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion 

message: Well this article says that Romany is similar to Indo-Iranian languages found in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Nrothern India.... Shouldnt it be specifically Indo-Aryan since Romanys connections to Hindi & Sanskrit have been established.
  अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey  05:44, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I am suprised to see that little emphasis has been given to establish relationship between Hindus and Romanys. Over the years, Islamic invasions from Turks and Mongols corrupted the culture existing in Pakistan and Afghanistan but northern India has retained the very essence of the Indo-Aryan Vedic culture (which forms the basis of Hinduism). Romanys belong to that Vedic culture and the article should mention that. --Deepak|वार्ता 21:17, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Languages.... 

message: Ahh.. well i know this has little to do with this article but it has been popping all over wikipedia. Well for records Punjab is NOT entirely in Pakistan; 30% of Punjab(Which had Hindu-Sikh majority) is in India. And Kashmir is a disputed province most of which is governed by India. Do keep these irrendentists in check.
61.1.71.53
:Good point.  Reference to transnational regions (e.g. Punjab, Lapland, Kurdistan) which attempt to shoehorn itself into a Nationalist paradigm, e.g. "The Punjab Region of northwestern India and Pakistan", are not only clumsy (try describing the Banat that way) but also invite error and POV-pushing as you point out.   In a world with hypertext, the REGIONNAME, properly linked, should be sufficient reference (e.g. Banat).  (after all, there exists an entire article *elsewhere* to define the term). This is especially important for "Roma" because of their concentration in an area with unstable borders and more that it's share of ambient ethnic frictions.  The English site should avoid that garbage, lest we end up in another inane edit war - funny that the point should first be made via Punjab and not some Balkan region. Istvan 14:32, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subtle POV pushing 

message: The article mentions a large South American Roma population, and I know it's referenced sometimes (100 Years of Solitude), but doesn't actually speak to it: when did they get there, why, or really anything at all.  If anyone knows any details, I think there'd be of lot of interest. FireWorks 17:34, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  South America 

message: The page  (in Czech) describes different opinions of Germany leaders to what to do. Himmler (who had the main word in it) had opinion that most should be deported and small part (few thousands) of "racially clean" gypsies were to be preserved in reservations. In discussion with Hitler (1942/Dec/16) he more-less put through this solution. 
The webpage lists sources, from wich G. Levy: The Nazi persecution of the Gypsies, Oxford 2000 may be best reachable. Pavel Vozenilek 15:59, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be noted that besides persecution and sterilisation the Sinti and Roma fought as German soldiers on almost all frontlines. Sometimes serving as soldiers for the Third Reich after sterilisation, hoping to save their families this way.
Wandalstouring 14:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exterminated or not 

message: As it is mentioned Country, Classical Blues, Swing, Fox Trot and the root of Classic Rock are of undoubtful romany gypsy influence and root. As it is in thos regions of the united states where mos romany people came to, that is: Dallas, Kansas, Arizona, New Orleans, Kentucky etc where "Country Cobowy" and redneck music was born. 
These gypsy rythms also have a connection to "Mariachi" and "Rancheras" of Mexico which where born in Nothern-Mexico by the popular "Charros" (cowboy gypsies).
In the Americas (north, south and central) the Romany Musician and similar groups had many names al relating to what in europe where called first with the term "Bohemians","Flamencos" in spain..In the americas u can see them as "Cowboys","Hippies" (gypsy-hippie) famous ofcourse for their country, jazz and rock and roll, in Mexico "Charros" famous for trumpeting Mariachi and sad guitar Boleros, in Cuba "Guajiros" or "Rumberos" (rumbo errant paths) famous root for most of cuban music (in addition to african influence), in Peru (Morochucos or Piajenos in the north coast famous for playing the Tondero, Marinera or Peruvian Valse), in Chile "Guaso" in Argentina "Gauchos","Milongeros" players of "Tango", "Chacarera" in Venezuela the "LLanero Cobowys" famous for their harp music etc etc
All of these musics have a connection to the primitive Swing of wester europe, tragic Zards of Eeastern Europe and Flamenco from Spain.
Lets understand for once that these rythms were created by these nomadic Indo-iranian raced warrios from the Punjab and Sind region that left their land never to return. Music was a source ofcourse of maintaining their pride as warriors of Old Indosthan and Vedic India.
:Sorry, I'm not convinced. I've studied and played a fair amount of American folk music, and apart from music which comes from black (African/Caribbean) sources, it's widely accepted among those who've studied this music that the bulk of it is from Anglo-Irish sources, with less significant contributions from other European sources, such as Czech, Hungarian, Scandinavian, etc. While there is no doubt a minor Roma influence, it's by no means significant.
:Likewise, mariachi music is a mixture of German and indigenous Mexican musics, not Roma.
:If you wanted to present some evidence of Roma influence here, that would be of interest. --ILike2BeAnonymous 23:56, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Western Southern Cowboy Music of Romany Origin 

message: Some guy keeps taking off-
Yul Brynner,
Ava Gardner,
Freddy Prinze,
Freddy Prinze Jr.
I have sources but everytime I put them back up, this guy erases them. four times today! 2/21/2006. There is literally hundreds of sources for Yul Brynner being Gypsy.
now whoever is taking off Mother Teresa
:Post your references, not all the 'hundreds', but just the ones you regard as most encyclopedic, for each one. Guinnog 23:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dispute in "List of Roma People"

message: It may well be pejorative, but I think most English speakers think of the word "gypsy" before they think of "Roma people," so I think it should be mentioned in the lead, though near the end of it, that the Romany are commonly referred to as "Gypsies." zafiroblue05 | Talk 02:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that's the way things stand now (it's mentioned near the end of the "Names" section, which is right near the top), so what's the problem? Besides, you seem a little confused about names yourself ("Romany" is the name of the language, not the people). --ILike2BeAnonymous 03:04, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

text: There you go - it definitely should be cleared up! :) What I meant was that it should be in the lead - ie, the first two paragraphs, above the table of contents. zafiroblue05 | Talk 05:01, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I took the plunge and put it in there. Let's see how long that lasts. (I'm not attached to it either way.) --ILike2BeAnonymous 05:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: From your description, I think it would be interesting to include all of these theories in the article, no matter how whacky they may seem. (I'm assuming you have supporting references for the Atsinganoi hypothesis.) If they could be very briefly summarized (maybe in bullet points?), I think it would add something valuable; a reinforcement of the implicit absurdity of the misnomers applied to the people. Or something. In any case, interesting and I think worthy of inclusion. --ILike2BeAnonymous 06:53, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reference is ROMBASE and (more scholarly) Angus Fraser's book who in turn references Soulis - The academic basis is there, I was hoping someone could perhaps flesh it out from a Byzantine perspective - perhaps someone more expert on Byzantine history (bc of the controversey) before putting it up.  As for the ZG theory, I dont claim it and have found no references.Istvan 07:18, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

text: That was me. The only reference I can find immediately is in a (well-researched) historical novel by C.L. Grace (real name Paul C. Doherty), I'll take it out until I can find something better. If it is correct, its important because it would mean the pejorative word Gypsy was a later invention. Jameswilson 00:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The word "gypsy"

message: I see that this is article improvement drive article of the week, but has an NPOV tag on it. Would someone please summarize the POV issues that are in dispute? - Jmabel | Talk 18:55, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The tag was added here. You can click "older edits" several time and you will see that the tag was added because of edit warring by User:82.143.162.72. Here you can se that he was blocked few times because of edit warring. Therefore, I think this tag should be removed, because it was misplaced in the first plaec. The guy shoud have been blocked, not allowed to provoke putting of npov tag. --Dijxtra 21:40, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. --ILike2BeAnonymous 23:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: I don't know if it's of any significance on the english wikipedia, but in greece the language has developed for some reason to a point that the word "Tsigkanos"(sounds like an article here about Roma in Spain called "Gitanos") has come to refer to the polite way of referring to Roma people. "Gypsy", the greek word being "Gyftos" has come to be negative, and probably in borderline with racism.
There is today a large percentage of the population (maybe the largest) that shows respect for the Roma people - mainly through their representation in comedy movies in the 80s and the wide acceptance and popularity of their traditional music for the last 20 years - and usually those that respect them almost always call them "Gitans(in english), Tsiganoys, Tsiganes" etc. --Fs 03:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why did you re-apply this comment I removed? I did the initial comment. Since I edited the main page adding the greek word for roma, I thought there's no much to gain from these comments. Maybe you don't know but you have the right to remove your own comments (obviously) --Fs 18:25, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I just noticed you accuse me of censorship. Obviously a misunderstanding. --Fs 18:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The word gypsy in Greece 

message: I'm reorganizing a few of the main article sections. The current organization seems some categorization errors.  Feel free to revise further.  Vir 02:09, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done - the article structure is starting to look a lot better Istvan 05:28, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks :) There is no one way to organize an article like this. But, in general, i think fewer main categories is better. One wikipedia ethnicity along the lines of the current article outline is Jews. The Cajun and Catalan_people articles are perhaps a better scheme (with simpler hence more easily navigable outlines), but to go that direction would be a more basic re-organization of the article. For other options, see: see List of ethnic groups. Vir 06:08, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sections need reorganization 

message: This valuable section could use some clarity.  I wont edit it any further since Im not familiar with genetics on that level.  BUT this section is especailly valuable, particularly for this topic - genes are one of the few unbiased authorities of Roma origin.  Immenent studies will surely throw much more light on these and many other peoples' roots.  If whoever posted the genetic data (or another qualified soul) could somehow streamline the content, it would add immensely to the article. Istvan 07:40, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genetics 

message: "It is believed that twenty percent of the population of Greece shares at least some Roma ethnicity." who believes that? because at least Greeks surely don't believe it:P If you're looking for the aryan race you won't find it near the mediterranean. We are naturaly not too white, not too black around there. --Fs 15:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This sentence was added by IP user 85.105.20.143 on 2006-03-07 13:33:27 without reference.  It seemed a dodgy statement to me as well, but I did not remove it bc Im not familiar with the context.  Perhaps IP user 85.105.20.143 or someone could provide reference, and if not, then it could be taken down or moved to talk.   The entire edit looks like it could be FY Macedonia POV.Istvan 16:10, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

text: There are many aspects to ethnicity (I assume that is what you mean by ethnity): mainly language, culture, biological relationship, religion. In the case of the Roma, probably quite a bit on all of these fronts, but it's not like most of these things readily have numbers attached. - Jmabel | Talk 07:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  who believes that? 

message: There's an article at Gypsy origin that seems to be a bit of a rant. I can't tell if there's any information there that needs to be here (I actually doubt it), but someone might want to take a look at it. If nothing else, maybe that should redirect here.  Joyous | Talk 15:29, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh; you think that's bad? You ought to take a look at Saint Sarah (as should other editors here as well). There's a lot of "ooga-booga" stuff there (the kind of belief that only the very religious seem capable of). Not to mention really bad writing. --ILike2BeAnonymous 05:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  article with questionable merit 

message: It's not just the Roma who "view themselves" as persecuted. I removed the unverified and unreferenced insinuation. That the Roma were persecuted on a widespread basis is about as uncontroversial a fact as stating that the Jewish people were persecuted on a widespread basis. --ScienceApologist 07:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Their view of persecution

message: Two similar passages in the article; this one is from the lead. "Most Roma speak Romany, an Indo-Aryan language likely derived from Sanskrit. Today, however, most Roma speak the dominant language of their region of residence."
This is ambiguous/contradictory. Are we saying that most Roma today speak the dominant language of their respective region in addition to Romany, or rather than Romany? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is ambiguous. As I understand it, what this is trying to say is that the Roma have historically spoken Romany, but that today most of them speak the dominant language of their region instead. If this is so, I can fix it so it isn't ambiguous. --ILike2BeAnonymous 01:07, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Languages 

message: I have sprotected the article for what I intend to be 2 days to deal with anonymous problem edits. --Improv 14:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  +2d sprotect 

message: The Wroclaw Troll has struck again in this guise, this time by reducing the article to a single word: "arse". Someone please ban this user, preferably for a significant length of time. Take off the gloves! ==ILike2BeAnonymous 15:22, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ban user 84.40.137.140 

message: Can a Roma be Jewish? it doesnt say in the article, but could that be?--80.230.208.187 22:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably not enough to be worth counting, but conversely, certainly there must be someone somewhere. It wouldn't really require a conversion: you could be Jewish in the female line (which is what halakha goes by), and still predominantly Roma. To give an idea how such things can happen, I know someone from Norway with a Norwegian father, a Scottish Presbyterian maternal grandfather, but she is Jewish in the female line, so she is considered Jewish, and so will her children be, though I'm sure no one around her usually thinks twice about her being anything other than Norwegian. - Jmabel | Talk 06:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  JEW 

message: Since several people seem to want a longer list, maybe there should be a page dedicated to Fictional representations of Roma people??
Just a thought...ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 18:19, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, no, no! That's the last thing we need here. More stupid lists! ==ILike2BeAnonymous 18:53, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now that the inevitable Fictional representations of Roma has been created anyway, someone needs to go through all the past versions and put all the extraneous stuff there, to keep it short here!  ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 21:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fictional representationsof Roma people 

message: Clearly, there is a popular and historical perception that Rom tend toward criminal activities. I propose a thorough but well-balanced section should be introduced on the topic, rather than simply sweeping it under the rug as part and parcel of anti-Rom discrimination. Wachholder0 16:50, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, fair enough; I agree that the first sentence you wrote above is true. What do you propose would go in this section? ==ILike2BeAnonymous 19:16, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay, let's deal with it. I've personally had Russian people beg and steal from me in Russia. Should Russian culture then list begging and stealing among Russian traits? In Canada, there is widespread abuse of the welfare system by all kinds of people. Should welfare fraud be listed as a common activity of Canadians? I know very few Catholics under 30 who remained virgins until they were married, yet can virginity not be listed on Catholicism as trait of the religion? Jews may have a reputation for "cheating" people, but I doubt you'll get it stated as "fact" on the Jew page. Maybe you feel these traits are more common among Roma than other people, but unless you have statistics to back it up, and show that it's a product of Roma culture, not simply poverty, it's just your opinion. You quite openly admit that your "facts" are based on personal research not legitimate sources. Personally, I think it would be a good idea to have something about negative perceptions of Roma, their poverty, and their resistance to assimilation (which I, personally, don't consider a bad thing), but I don't think someone, such as yourself, who believes they are somehow morally bankrupt, and who has no evidence but insists that "truth is truth," is the person to do the job. Come back when you have more to offer than your own personal impressions. -- TheMightyQuill 09:11, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

text: A Romanian (herself not a Rom) social worker told me, that the established ways of income Romany had, crumbled with the downfall following the economic changes after the end of Communism. Social prejudices and lacking education often make situation even harder. Therefore several do, what people in such hopeless situations usually do, drink, steal, prostitute and feel pity. Thats nothing ethnically specific, only the percentage compared to the major population differs. That is a point to discuss, because it has reasons and listing of such would help to understand.
The existance of a strict morale code for Romany puzzles many people with the usual prejudiced picture.
Wandalstouring 22:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I have removed the unsourced and rather curious little description of supposed Rom pickpocketing methods, and added some of the information I mentioned earlier. Noting the widespread perception of crime in the Rom community is not racist, and I believe I have addressed it in a sensitive and non-dogmatic way. If you disagree, feel free to rewrite the offending passages. I believe it is important to include this information, and I feel it would indeed be NPOV not to include it. Wachholder0 21:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rom and Crime

message: I was thinking there should be a Roma-stub for all the small roma related articles. If you have an opinion, you can  vote here. -- TheMightyQuill 15:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It took some work, but I got it approved. :Template:Roma-stub. Please add it to Roma-related stub articles. -- TheMightyQuill 13:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roma Stub? 

message: It is written that the etymology is of Sanskrit langauge but according to discussion in the Indology list by linguists it is either of Dravidian or Munda origin, hence we need to bring that aspect of the etymology also.RaveenS 16:59, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  See updated Domba article for explanation of Dom etymologyRaveenS 20:05, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymology of Doma 

message: I noticed in the music section of this article there is no mention of the Gipsy Kings. That's a bit odd since they are probably the most widely known Roma musical group in the world...in fact, I bet most people outside of the Roma community only know about Roma music through this group. Could anyone tell me why you have decided to leave them out? (if it's deliberate) .Rosa 11:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd assume they've just been forgotten. Go ahead and make an addition to the article yourself! Jonas Liljeström 12:37, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They're not here because, to be blunt, there's no reason for them to be. It adds no useful information to the article. There might be a place in the Roma music article, but I'm not even sure of that. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 05:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Why do they belong in this article? What about them is important to telling the story of the Roma? I agree they might be relevant to the music article, but I don't see what purpose mentioning them here would serve, other than to add yet another piece of jewelry, like all those examples of fictional Roma representations. (I don't care for them either; they're basically faux-gypsy musicians. There are many more examples of better musicians who actually do Roma music. But I'd be willing to admit them to the music article based on their popularity; you can't argue with the vast unwashed masses of the world.) ==ILike2BeAnonymous 20:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks for that observation. I'd say that the French band Les Yeux Noirs are slightly more authentic than the "Gypsy Kings", as they play a mix of klezmer, other Eastern European music and some bona fide Roma stuff, although they're slightly less well known than the G.Ks. I still wouldn't put either of them in the article. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 07:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Okay, I'm convinced. A reference should go in Roma music but not here. -- TheMightyQuill 10:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gipsy Kings 

message: I see this article's neutrality is disputed but I can't find the reasons in this discussion page. Could anyone direct me to them? Personally, I don't see any flagrantly biased info here...I think the neutrality template should be removed.Rosa 12:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality Template 

message: Since there seems to be new interest and new blood in editing this article, I'll raise the peer review issue again: I think everybody agrees the current peer review is a joke. Why not move it into an archive or whatever, and get rid of the notice on the talk page? My reason for proposing this, both then and now, is the fear of crying wolf: when we'll have a proper peer review on this article, everybody will ignore it, assuming it's the same old farce. What do you think? --Gutza T T+ 00:57, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely. Approve moving it to Archive and removing notice. Actually, is there enough interest in this topic for a Roma wikiproject? -- TheMightyQuill 19:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks, Gutza.  Now, can anyone define "peer" in the context of this article? Istvan 15:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a Wikipedia conceit; there is no peer review in the conventional and proper sense of the word. (What, get experts' opinions? Get outta here!) ==ILike2BeAnonymous 18:16, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peer review, revisited 

message: By the way there are some Romany institutions, like some kind of formal king in Timisoara Romania.
In German he is called "Bullypasha".
Romany people tended to have certain economic functions (renowned for sharpening knifes and scissors) for a long time and were well organized.
The first constant settlemt of Romany in Knees (German spelling, an ancient Tartarian village) in Romania is neither mentioned in this article.
Like for Jews for Romany evolved either certain family names, mostly out of the Medieval Guild system and its limitations on professions avaiable. Most people with such a family name dont even know anything about its origin.
Wandalstouring 14:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  missing aspects 

message: Could it be that the Roma people and Aryans are supposed to derive from the same source and that this is the issue with those Indo-Aryanists?  Who would have thought that scientific racism would promote the scoundrels of their society as eugenically sound, after all the Gypsies had been through.  Who would have thought that Gypsies were a general European people, when always on the outskirts of European acceptance?  Maybe the racists couldn't account for hidden Romas in their own blood; couldn't take a chance.  All I know is that this is theoretical and nothing solid; wishful thinking.  In all the history of the world, when has India been natively associated with Europe?  Indo-Europeanism is a racist concoction to support the imperialism for tea and textiles, with no basis before the idea was published--only Alexander the Great and Greco-Buddhism (blown out of proportion, both of them) seem to have had truthful associations with India.  When has Hinduism been European?--since the British Empire.  In the words of J.R.R. Tolkien:
* I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by 'arisch'. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. ... But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.... I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.
**One of two draft letters (25 July 1938) written for Stanley Unwin to select as a response to his German publishers inquiry about his ancestry. 
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/J._R._R._Tolkien
Lord Loxley 12:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theories on [[Aryan race]]? 

message: I understand that the article as a whole needs a lot of work, but I embarked on a general spelling/grammar/formatting cleanup of this particular section and came to the conclusion that it makes quite a few claims that are not neutral-point-of-view, and it doesn't back them up with any external sources.  The population figure is completely uncited (although by the looks of this talk page it appears this issue has been heavily discussed).  The section of the article relating to Roma refusing to accept places at universities, devoting their lives to petty crime, racial intolerance, vandalism, and rape (!) are completely unfounded.  The sections about the abject poverty Roma live in while giving birth to many children is quite similar.  I've gotten it from other (albeit unreliable) sources that the Roma birthrate is generally higher than that of the surrounding population, but some sort of official figure to back this up would be a very good thing to have.
--Fedallah 06:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ...and most/all of the offending lines were just excised entirely from the article in the last three minutes or so by several anon users, and the various warning tags removed.  Well, that didn't take long.--Fedallah 07:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  problems with Roma in Romania section, marked as such in article 

message: Is Romani mutually understandable with other Indian languages? I know that some words and pronounciations exist in both Romani and some indian languages, but is there mutual understanding possible? Dpotop 13:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language 

message: I've reverted the image of Chaplin, Mother T etc a couple of times now. If someone else thinks it is better than what we have, please say. Thanks. --Guinnog 21:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it might be the work of the "Wroclaw troll". In any case, it should be removed should it reappear; Chaplin, for one, was not Roma. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 22:16, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did wonder. Well, it's been deleted now anyway as copyvio. --Guinnog 22:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

text: And I'm proud of being white.  Whoop-dee-doo. --mboverload@ 00:00, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And besides, nobody has "Romany" blood. You mean his blood spoke the language of the Roma? Any more, when I see this term (mis)used this way, I find the source can be discredited as a hoary old myth of some kind. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 00:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture

message: I just wonder very much if fictional Sherlock Holmes was a gypsy man. Was he? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.208.39 (talk • contribs) 
:Well, I've read most, if not all, of the Conan-Doyle stories, and don't remember a single reference to this ever. What could possibly lead you to such a conclusion? +ILike2BeAnonymous 18:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sherlock Holmes

message: or Roma in isreal???100110100 06:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are some roma people of course, they're everywhere.--Noisettes 10:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rom in Israel???