Talk:Seventh-day Adventist Church/Archive 4

message: Seventh-day Adventism is frequently defined by what the present Seventh-day Adventist Church claims for itself and by what independent, outside observers and researchers have published. Another equally valid meaning would be the original vision and understanding of what the founders of Seventh-day Adventism had in mind when the movement began. Therefore, I propose that we jointly organize and write a much better article on Seventh-day Adventism so that the contrast between these three points of view is clear and distinct. 
For some reason, the majority of editors for the Wikipedia page Seventh-day Adventist Church insist on minimizing the divergent views in Seventh-day Adventism as far as possible. I believe that an accurate picture requires presenting all valid perspectives. For instance, the Seventh-day Adventist church presently teaches as their "13th fundamental belief" that their organization is the Remnant Church "called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." However, Ellen G. White is believed to be the undisputed prophetic voice within Adventism (see belief #18) and her published opinion was that the Seventh-day Adventist Church was more disobedient to God and a greater failure than the Jewish Church:
: "But very few of those who have received the light are doing the work entrusted to their hands. There are a few men of unswerving fidelity who do not study ease, convenience, or life itself, who push their way wherever they can find an opening to press the light of truth and vindicate the holy law of God. But the sins that control the world have come into the churches, and into the hearts of those who claim to be God’s peculiar people. Many who have received the light exert an influence to quiet the fears of worldlings and formal professors. There are lovers of the world even among those who profess to be waiting for the Lord. There is ambition for riches and honor. Christ describes this class when He declares that the day of God is to come as a snare upon all that dwell upon the earth. This world is their home. They make it their business to secure earthly treasures. They erect costly dwellings and furnish them with every good thing; they find pleasure in dress and the indulgence of appetite. The things of the world are their idols. These interpose between the soul and Christ, and the solemn and awful realities that are crowding upon us are but dimly seen and faintly realized. The same disobedience and failure which were seen in the Jewish church have characterized in a greater degree the people who have had this great light from heaven in the last messages of warning. Shall we, like them, squander our opportunities and privileges until God shall permit oppression and persecution to come upon us? Will the work which might be performed in peace and comparative prosperity be left undone until it must be performed in days of darkness, under the pressure of trial and persecution?" 
Ellen White wrote in 1900 that not one in twenty Seventh-day Adventists were saved: 
: "It is a solemn statement that I make to the church, that not one in twenty whose names are registered upon the church books are prepared to close their earthly history, and would be as verily without God and without hope in the world as the common sinner. They are professedly serving God, but they are more earnestly serving mammon."
Furthermore, referring to the then present and future leadership of the Seventh-day Adventists, Ellen White wrote:
: "The religion of Jesus is endangered. It is being mingled with worldliness. Worldly policy is taking the place of the true piety and wisdom that comes from above, and God will remove His prospering hand from the conference. Shall the ark of the covenant be removed from this people? Shall idols be smuggled in? Shall false principles and false precepts be brought into the sanctuary? Shall antichrist be respected? Shall the true doctrines and principles given us by God, which have made us what we are, be ignored? Shall God's instrumentality, the publishing house, become a mere political, worldly institution? This is directly where the enemy, through blinded, unconsecrated men, is leading us."
That's an entirely different picture isn't it?
In regard to Seventh-day Adventists respecting antichrist, I think it is already a requirement in some Seventh-day Adventist churches. The fulfillment of Ellen White's prediction shouldn't be surprising. An article in the Adventist Review states that Seventh-day Adventist church leaders in Germany and Austria have recently apologized on behalf of all German and Austrian Seventh-day Adventist churches for once idolizing Adolf Hitler:
: "We deeply regret that the character of National Socialist dictatorship had not been realized in time and distinctly enough, and the ungodly nature of [Nazi] ideology had not clearly been identified," the statement, as translated from German, reads. The church says it also regrets "that in some of our publications . . . there were found articles glorifying Adolf Hitler and agreeing with the ideology of anti-Semitism in a way that is unbelievable from today's [perspective]."
: A paramount regret, the statement indicated, was that German and Austrian Adventist congregations "excluded, separated and left [church members who were] . . . of Jewish origin to themselves so that they were delivered to imprisonment, exile or death."
I believe that true Seventh-day Adventism can only be seen by displaying the many conflicting factions in the church. I agree with this published statement in the article The Recent Truth About Seventh-day Adventists in Christianity Today February 5, 1990. There Kenneth R. Samples wrote "A problem in past evangelical evaluations of Adventism has been the failure to recognize its theological diversity. Adventism is anything but monolithic."
Seventh-day Adventism is often confused with a faction that the well-known cult expert Walter Martin called the "lunatic fringe." I call them legalists. They call themselves historic Seventh-day Adventists. Adventist extremists existed in Ellen White's day and still exist today. They legitimately represent one face in the seven faces of Seventh-day Adventism.
Evangelism for many Adventist extremists means to invest tens of thousands of dollars in special literature and billboard and newspaper advertising around the country declaring that the pope is the antichrist.    Adventist leadership retaliates by acting papal. In recent years, the General Conference of the denomination has trademarked the name Seventh-day Adventist Church and quickly goes to court to stop non-conformist and dissident Adventist congregations from using the name such-and-such Seventh-day Adventist Church. 
Most Seventh-day Adventists approve of controlling and punishing non-conforming Adventists through the civil power. The Seventh-day Adventist church has exercised extraordinary skill in destroying anyone who sincerely disagrees with her.    I don't think it's fair to label their approval of evil as being evangelical. --Perspicacious 18:41, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Teachings by Ellen G. White that Seventh-day Adventists hate

message: Your vanity nonsense is merely a shameless excuse to justify silencing  a valid testimony that confirms Ellen White's prophecies against papal Seventh-day Adventists. 
http://en.wikipedia.org is made up of articles and talk pages just like http://www.everythingimportant.org
Two of your external links have forums:
http://www.formeradventist.com
and Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church.
See Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church Forum
http://www.everythingimportant.org is a ministry of Come To Christ, a private non-profit 501 C(3) religious foundation, just like Good News Unlimited. 
Who do you think peer-reviews the articles that appear at Desmond Ford's website? 
Your disapproval of Eugene Shubert, based on his writings, is obviously based on his interpretation of Ellen G. White. It should be very clear to all informed Adventists that you disapprove of Shubert's view of popish Seventh-day Adventists precisely because it is exactly Ellen White's perspective. That's why all the resident editors here have no interest in summarizing Ellen White's view of the church. 
Here are my countercharges, written by Ellen G. White, which clearly identifies the worst enemies of the Seventh-day Adventist Church:
"The worst enemies we have are those who are trying to destroy the influence of the watchmen upon the walls of Zion." 5T 294.
Your presumptuous insinuation that the site http://www.ellenwhite.org/ is respectable whereas http://www.everythingimportant.org/seventhdayAdventists/dupery.htm is not truly reveals your anti-EGW point of view.
Something to think about: 
"When evidence is given that a man is a messenger of the Lord of hosts, that he speaks in God's stead, it is perilous to the soul to reject and despise the message. To turn away from heaven's light and refuse the light-bearer, is to take a course similar to that which Satan took in the courts of heaven when he created rebellion in the ranks of the angels. He misrepresented the character of God, and placed in a false light his gracious commandments. He evaded the truth, and subtly worked to make good appear as evil, and evil as good. He has lost none of his tact, and through his agents, manifests the same diplomacy and skill in evading truth, in creating false issues, in misrepresenting the message and the messenger. Not only do we see his working in the world among those who openly oppose the truth, but also in the church his art is manifested in the divisions and controversies among those who profess to be the children of God." Ellen G. White, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, October 18, 1892. --Perspicacious 05:22, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The worst enemies of the Seventh-day Adventist Church