Talk:Florine Stettheimer

message: Bloemink biography gives birth date as August 19, contrary to Britannica which states August 29.  I have changed it to the former but not sure how or if to cite such basic information.  Hoping no controversy on this point.  Artchivist1 (talk) 19:32, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: When I wrote the only extant biography of Florine Stettheimer in 1995 (The Life and Art of Florine Stettheimer, Yale University Press) I met with (and remain the only person who is living and did so) the only living family members and the family lawyer Joseph Solomon who knew Florine Stettheimer herself.  They discussed her with me and showed me a number of family papers, genealogical charts, and photographs, and gave me her birth date as August 19th. As with so many inaccurate statements made about Stettheimer, I have no idea where the date of August 29th came from, but family records date Florine Stettheimer's birth as August 19th, 1871 in Rochester, New York. --Barbarabloemink (talk) 18:49, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: So the article is ok on this particular point? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:00, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I think Barbara is saying it should be the 19th.  Barbara, your personal conversations and family papers aside, do you have a reliable source for the August 19th date?  I checked, and, wherever the date might've come from, Encyclopedia Britannica does report it as August 29.  JohnInDC (talk) 21:27, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I misread. If 19th is from/in The Life and Art of Florine Stettheimer, I think it's reasonable to go with that, I think we prefer WP:SECONDARY to WP:TERTIARY. At the very least we should have both. Give me a pagenumber for "The Life" (no help from g-books) and I'll add it myself. Unless there's an argument I'm unaware of that "The Life" should not be considered generally reliable? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 23:14, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth date 

message: , are you done for now? I'll re-read the article, but want to wait until you're finished. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:42, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , I'd like to take another look at the lead, and make sure there's nothing in there that isn't in the article. Feel free to work on it. I'd  like to work toward a consistent style of citation. If I'm really going to make a big change and need a chunk of time to do so I'll put  on it. Vexations (talk) 12:45, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent! Kudos to you and , who I hope will stay on WP and edit other stuff too. Personally I've never bothered to learn the difference between an Oxford style citation and my elbow, but consistent style of citation is desirable, especially if someone is thinking WP:GOOD ARTICLE and/or WP:DYK. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:26, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

text: , "On seeing these paintings in the 1960s, Andy Warhol declared Stettheimer to be his favorite artist.[2] " is lead-only. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:06, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , I've removed it. It is not supported by the source.Vexations (talk) 20:17, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:21, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Impressive! 

message: This sounds implausible: "by visiting every museum and major art gallery in Italy, France, Spain, and Germany". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:01, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be fair to say "by visiting every major existing museum and art gallery in Italy, France, Spain, and Germany" instead.  It's not as implausible as it sounds. Remember, we're talking about a significant period of time; she spent most of every year in Europe between 1881 and 1914, except for the four years she spent at the Art Students' League.  She traveled throughout Europe from her 20s until her mid-forties, and had the both dedication and means to do it. Vexations (talk) 16:09, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Good enough. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:19, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Hang on , this doesn't quite rhyme (I think). This is in the "Early life and Training" and the text as written hints it happens between 1887-1892. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:12, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:   Good point. The way it's written, it would cover the period before she went to the Art Students League. It does come across as  hyperbole, even if proof exists that is not presented here. I support toning it down. Vexations (talk) 18:35, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

text: [[User:BarbaraBloemink}} As I revised above, Stettheimer traveled throughout Europe constantly between 1880 until 1914, with the exception of the 4 years she spent at the Art Students' League. Throughout that time (from her early childhood at around 10 until her early 40s,) she and her mother and two youngest sisters, traveled from Germany through Italy, France, and Spain, and she spent hours visiting all the major extant museums, art galleries, major artists' studios, Art Salons...and wrote her personal critiques of the artists' work. So it all falls until her Early Life and Training as it wasn't until 1914, when she finally returned to New York, that she stopped studying and trying out various art styles and developed her own art style. Barbarabloemink (talk) 20:33, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Like I said, impressive. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:12, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early life and Training 

message: "In all but her portraits," should that be "In all her portraits," or "In all her paintings but the portraits," or something else? Also, the "intro" section here is long but relatively cite-free. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:07, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  BarbaraBloemink Agreed it should be "In all her paintings but the portraits," all of the points in the introduction that are not cited are written in more detail and fully cited in the following text. Barbarabloemink (talk) 20:35, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see for example "Within a year, she developed her own, uniquely feminine style, rejecting Matisse's thick impasto, as well as the abstract modernism and the baroque masculine regionalism of her contemporaries." more detailed and cited in the following text, but that's me. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:36, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mature Painting Style 

message: Someone may want to look into that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:31, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Vexations (talk) 17:33, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Gråbergs Gråa SångVexations Thank you! Vexations, I cannot thank you enough for all of the time and work you did to make it possible to correct the inaccuracies and create a comprehensive, accurate entry that reflects the significance and innovative nature of Florine Stettheimer and her work.  If nothing else, now at least I know that anyone in the future wanting to know more about this artist will be able to locate the primary sources, not secondary ones that are repeating incorrect information - and that has been my only goal throughout all these weeks of back and forth hours of "discussion" on these pages. I know that as time moves forward, others will continue to work on the artist and add more sources and articles etc. but at least the 'base" will be accurate and comprehensive. Thank you from me and from all future readers interested in Florine Stettheimer. You restored my faith in interest in facts and truth. Barbarabloemink (talk) 20:53, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rated Start-class 

message: Maybe good for something: Anything Went: Florine Stettheimer at Columbia University. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:45, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible source 

message: Discusses Lucy Ives' essay: https://www.academia.edu/38525369/Florine_abbandonata Vexations (talk) 00:21, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Should we consider this selfpublished, reliably published or something else? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:32, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

text: I see some evidence it could fall under "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:53, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  , It would be a bit odd to say Brown is reliable as a co-author of Uhlyarik, but not here. Vexations (talk) 11:02, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know what Uhlyarik is, I was thinking of evidence like . Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:19, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Georgiana Uhlyarik is the co-author with Stephen Brown of the exhibition catalog Florine Stettheimer: Painting Poetry, which we use as a source in the article.Vexations (talk) 13:39, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: But the article you linked still seems selfpublished, correct? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:50, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, but I don't think that precludes using Brown as a source. Vexations (talk) 14:09, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:22, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stephen Brown 

message: , per lowercase version preferred, can you explain why lowercase is better for the WP-reader, is there a MOS or something? The source use "Halley K. Harrisburg", and to this reader lowercase just looks wrong. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:34, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. I may have been wrong in revering your edit. The relevant policy is MOS:MULTIPLENAMES, specifically . She obviously wants her name stylized in lower case, see http://www.michaelrosenfeldart.com/contact, but at the time of the purchase of the painting, the source (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/27/arts/design/florine-stettheimer-painting-fisk-university-sold.html) referred to her as Halley K. Harrisburg. Vexations (talk) 11:53, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Live and learn, I have no intention to argue with the Children's Museum of Manhattan. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:37, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

text: But you should always feel free to revere my edits. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:39, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  halley k harrisburg or Halley K. Harrisburg 

message: , perhaps some of this could be improved with a little less WP-voice and a little more "according to Bloemink" (or whoever). Just a thought. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:49, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , I could use some help from a copy editor. Perhaps we can ask the Guild of Copy Editors? Vexations (talk) 13:05, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not that familiar with them, but asking is cheap. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:07, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

text: Nothing immediately comes to mind, but I'll see what I can find. Vexations (talk) 12:03, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  https://www.jstor.org/stable/1358849 Vexations (talk) 13:37, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: That'll do. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:42, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA-stuff 

message: Should we make more mention of her work on the production of Pocahontas? Some info here: https://www.artinamericamagazine.com/news-features/magazines/the-repatriation-of-f/ Vexations (talk) 02:57, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Per your source, I think it deserves in-text mention. Not a lot, since it's unfinished, but 1-2 sentences. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:06, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

text: So her brother's name was Walter Walter..? Did he have cruel parents..? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:09, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pocahontas 

message: , I managed to look inside this book  and found some info, if you have an opinion on inclusion/use. Publisher Cambridge, Mass., Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, written by... Parker Tyler.
*Walter S's daughter married Julius Ochs Adler p366
*Stella S married was the mother of Walter Wanger p366
*Ettie wrote under the pseudonym Henrie Waste p367
*FS studied with Kenyon Cox (in article) and Robert Henri (not in article) p367
*Gives mother's year of death as 1937 (article says 1935) p367
*Interesting high praise for her work on Four Saints in Three Acts p367
*FS had a lifetime obsession of being buried with all her paintings in a mausoleum, relinquished by the time of her death p368
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:52, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , Thanks for this, I'll check it out. Vexations (talk) 14:18, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable American women, 1607-1950; a biographical dictionary  vol3 (1971)