Talk:List of current monarchs of sovereign states

message: Any opposition to, or comments on, the new version? The diff is here. The "subnational monarchs" have been moved to a separate list. Nightw 05:03, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  New version 

message: Add missing Cook Islands and Niue. Greetings.Cêsar (talk) 13:40, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no separate crown for these. Nightw 09:47, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The link should changed to be to the Realm of New Zealand, because currently it links only to New Zealand and the RNZ crown relationship is equal for the three - NZ, CI, Niue. Alinor (talk) 21:14, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monarchs 

message: Is SMOM some kind of elective monarchy (like the Holy See)? (see also here). Alinor (talk) 21:14, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have some sources listing it as one, then we can add it in prose at the end of the list. Nightw 07:11, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  SMOM 

message: The list was recently pulled from a TFL spot pending further review. I have done at least some reviewing (of the sources avaliable online) and have come up with several concerns. Only one is for close paraphrasing (what was intended to be checked), but I've run into a few reliable sources concerns that escaped scrutiny from us reviewers during the FLC process. When checking them more thoroughly, the problems become apparent.
*The one close parahrasing instance I found in the lead was at the end of the second paragraph. Article: "while the European practice of using distinguishing Roman numerals for rulers has been applied below where typical, in most cases these are not actually used according to local custom." Ref 9: "Although it is common to see the use of distinguishing Roman numerals for rulers, these are not actually used according to local practice." Most of that is basically word-for-word, and it concerns me. Note that the review I conducted was not all-encompassing; it excludes the book sources and the notes (I'll try to review the notes at a later time).
*While reviewing, I noticed that Royalark.net (used in refs 9, 22, 28, 30, 31, 43, 46, 55, 56, 60, 66, 70, and 91) looked like somebody's personal webpage. I'm no expert on the topic, but the site didn't seem that reliable to me. I looked around and was able to find Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 103, which has a discussion that indicates negative feelings about the site. The fact that such a regularly used source is questionable is troubling, to say the least. If we shouldn't use the source in a BLP, as the consensus says, why should we use it for anything else instead of something better?
*The discussion above also says the Genealogical Gleanings site (refs 29 and 98) isn't reliable.
*Ref 8 is somebody's personal coin site and not reliable at all.
*Ref 12 (Catholic-Pages.com) is another personal website. Can we really find nothing more reliable about the papal election process? That seems like it would be one of the easiest things on this page to cite.
Considering that almost 20 refs are of questionable reliability, I think they need to be sorted out, in addition to the close paraphrasing instance, before this will be worthy of a spot on the main page. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 17:48, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: *Fixed the sentence up and I'm in the process of replacing the references. I'll give you a buzz on your talk page when I'm done. Thanks for doing the review. Nightw 14:20, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: *Should be all okay now. Nightw 15:23, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: *Just checked the changes and they all look good. The only other thing I want to do is spot-check some of the notes. Tomorrow's looking busy for me again, but I should have some free time on Monday to get this done. Thanks for your hard work to this point. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:40, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: *Spot-checked some of the sources for the notes today and there were no close paraphrasing concerns. I did spot a couple other minor issues, though. First, ref 61 doesn't give the date of the first part of Prince Albert II's ceremony. It gives the month (July), but not the date. It would be good to find another source confirming that. Second, when I clicked on ref 80 it redirected me to the front page of The Times' site. May need a replacement for that link. Everything else looked okay to me. Giants2008 (Talk) 23:31, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: *I have added a citation that confirms the date of the first part of Prince Albert II's ceremony. I have also fixed the link rot on the King Fahd bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud reference. Neelix (talk) 20:07, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Neelix. Nightw 02:17, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  TFL-related review 

message: Copying a previous conversation from the archive of NightW's talk page and mine:  Initial response was in response to this edit.  Posted here now as the assumption that it is a personal title was reposted today
Can you add a reference to  please? I don't really doubt it but FL standards and all... Nightw 12:04, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I get about 3000+ hits on Google for "Copríncep Nicolas Sarkozy", including about  from govern.ad. Plus about 12,000 and  for "Copríncep Joan-Enric Vives". In most cases though it seems to be preceded by "el" or some other conjunctive (like ). In other cases it seems to be written as a straight up title (like ). I know it's not much but with the claim being so adamant it's enough to make me slightly inquisitive. Especially given the current (though contentious) verifiability, not truth policy. The style of Sarkozy's office (according to his rep office's website) seems to be His Excellency, the French Co-Prince (), which does make it less personal. Nightw 03:35, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Those google searches don't exclude a very high proportion of instances in which the phrase is broken up by a comma, and do include such examples totally devoid of grammar, sentence construction and understanding of another language as "President Bishop of Urgel Coprince Nicolas Sarkozy Coprince Joan E.V. Sicilia".  The evidence that Co-Prince Nicolas Sarkozy (the name given in the article before my edit) with that pattern of capitalisation) is correct is very scant.  I didn't see it so much as an "adamant claim" as a sensible explanation as to why a pair of entries was so clearly different from the others in this regard.  Kevin McE (talk) 23:27, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I see what you mean. Thanks for the responses. Nightw 04:53, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Co-prince does not appear to be a personal title 

message: In reply to the following edit summary:
:Excuse me? You clearly know nothing about heraldry then. National arms of any monarchy are Arms of Dominion and are thus the monarch's arms at the same time... 
...At the same time, they are also everyone else's. While a heads of state may be the armiger of a coat, it also (in most cases) represents the nation, government institutions, and in some cases the military. They rarely, if ever, represent the head of state exclusively. It does not make much sense to me to display national coats of arms in this list; it is not something that I would expect to see as a reader. Is there any other reason for not displaying standards beyond "not all the monarchs have standards, but they all have arms" (because we can't display all the arms either)? Nightw 18:51, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we definitely want the list to remain about the monarchs, rather than their domains. Nightw 03:03, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case, would you support a re-formatting such that it is presented as a list of monarchs, with their domains as a subsidiary column, rather than a table defined by domains?  Kevin McE (talk) 12:38, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Royal standards v. national coats of arms 

message: The answer is very simple.  The Emperor of Japan was removed from this list of sovereign monarchs because, well, he is not a sovereign monarch.  Under the current Constitution of Japan, "sovereign power resides with the people" (Preamble); the Emperor is a symbol of the State "deriving his position from the will of the people with whom resides sovereign power (Article 1).  In his treatise on the Constitution of Japan, Professor Matsui describes this as the "first fundamental principle of the Japanese Constitution" and writes that "it is abundantly clear that it is the people who have sovereign power in Japan."Shigenori Matsui, The Constitution of Japan:  A Contextual Analysis, Hart Publishing, 2011, p. 29, emphasis added.
This is important both for accuracy of this page and to maintain historical clarity for anyone studying about Japan.  The historical contrast is with the Meiji Constitution, which specifically established Imperial sovereignty in Article 4, and this issue was at the heart of the back-and-forth between the Allied Occupation and Japanese leaders during the process leading up to the enactment of the 1947 Constitution.Shoichi Koseki, The Birth of Japan's Postwar Constitution, Westview Press 1997, (Moore trans.).  It is also central to current politics of constitutional reform in Japan, though even the proposed LDP draft would retain popular sovereignty.In Japanese, here:  https://www.jimin.jp/activity/colum/116667.html; translation available here:  http://www.japanfocus.org/-Lawrence-Repeta/3969.   If more radical revisionists accomplish constitutional revision so as to restore imperial sovereignty, then the Emperor of Japan should be added to this list.  But until then, in anyone's name, the Emperor of Japan should not be included here.
AprilInParis (talk) 19:49, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Some other monarchs on the list are not the possessors of national sovereignty vis-á-vis the people either (see the first amendment of the Constitution of Luxembourg, for example). As much as I understand 'sovereign monarch' in this context means monarch of a sovereign nation, therefore its opposite is a non-independent (sub-national) monarch (e.g. the nine Malay monarchs), not the monarch of a country where sovereignty resides with the people.  ZBukov (talk) 00:25, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

text: While I concur with ZBukov that it is often the case that monarchs are not "sovereign", I do not think that the problem here is in your interpretation as much as it is in the title of this article; "sovereign monarch" is ambiguous. Either it is redundant or it refers to what ZBukov described: a monarch who reigns over a "sovereign" nation or people, rather than a monarch who exercises, de jure or de facto, sovereign power. There are historically many examples of monarchs who ranked or were styled as "sovereign", but whose authority was subordinate, for instance the kings (of, e.g., Bavaria, Hanover, Saxony and Wurttemberg), who reigned under the German Emperor until 1918. There are still those who are ranked and titled as kings whose authority is cultural rather than territorial (e.g. Kingdom of Buganda, Kingdom of the Zulus, the Queendom of the Rain, Kingdom of the Maori, etc). The King of Sweden is another example of a monarch who no longer has any constitutional authority, but remains, like the Emperor of Japan, the nation's Head of State in a crowned republic. Indeed, one could argue that is de facto and to some extent de jure the case for all of Europe's current monarchs except possibly those of Liechtenstein and Monaco. What all monarchs share, including Japan's, is that they reign: whether absolutely or consitutionally, independently or dependently, culturally or politically, a monarch is the highest-ranking person in the realm and his/her position has a hereditary component (either a fixed order of succession or a dynasty from which the monarch must be selected). Perhaps this article should be re-named? FactStraight (talk) 04:33, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: AprilInParis, if you think that the Emperor of Japan is the one monarch who should not feature on this list, then please explain how the first amendment of the Constitution of Luxembourg would be different (it says: "National sovereignty was transferred from the monarch to the nation"). And please also explain the following sentence from the Government of Sweden article: "the Swedish Monarch is no longer vested any formal executive powers at all with respect to the governance of the Realm". And please give your opinion on who is the head of state of Japan, which - according to the Wikipedia article at least - is a constitutional monarchy.  ZBukov (talk) 20:27, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Why in God's name the Emperor of Japan was removed from this list is beyond me, . . . ." 

message: Could someone please explain to me how the President of the United Arab Emirates could be a monarch? I know that the rulers of the individual emirates are monarchs, but the title of Khalifa bin Zayed al Nahyan related to the country as a whole is 'president' (while being Emir of Dubai). I  would think that if the founders of the UAE would have wanted to establish a federal monarchy (like the one in Malaysia) than they would have granted the federal head of state a monarchical title, which 'president' clearly isn't. The fact that Khalifa is the son of the previous president does not make it a monarchy, because this is also the case in Syria, Togo, Gabon, North Korea and the Democratic Republic of Congo and those and undoubtedly republics. And President François Hollande is not a relevant parallel either, because his title related to Andorra is Co-Prince. So do you guys have any ideas as to why the President of the UAE would be a monarch?  ZBukov (talk) 09:56, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  United Arab Emirates a monarchy? 

message: Why North Korea not include ? --Erik Fastman (talk) 01:41, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: North Korea is officially a republic. If we add the DPRK, we have to add Syria, Cuba, Togo, Gabon and the Democratic Republic of Congo, as those republican heads of state inherited their positions from their fathers or brothers. – Jwkozak91 (talk) 05:22, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  North Korea 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Is there a way we can simplify Elizabeth's Birth section? Having 1926 repeated 16 times, isn't necessary. GoodDay (talk) 06:13, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elizabeth II's Birth column 

message: It would be nice to link from the list to articles on the monarchies themselves, like Monarchy of the United Kingdom. Not sure if this should be its own column or replace the links to country names, or what. It's weird that the titles in the "Monarch" column are linked to lists of past monarchs; maybe this should move into a separate column as well? -- Beland (talk) 02:19, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Linking 

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message: How could a co-monarchy exist? It would mean a single person who rules over everything of which there are two. Add to that both of these co-princes aren't monarchs themselves. One is elected temporarily by general election and the other is chosen by heads of a religious faith. Neither of these men can wield power in Andorra without answering to Both the parliament of Andorra and their own respective organizations. There is no meaning of the word monarchy that applies to this situation. The position is not hereditary. They don't have over arching power. And there isn't just one of them. They aren't even called kings or emperors. They're called princes, like the old meaning of the word prince before it because commonly, "the son of a king". The word prince used to mean the principal of a principality, royal or not. 100.34.110.98 (talk) 14:28, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that Andorra does not belong to this list, as it is clearly not a monarchy. It could be discussed whether it is a diarchy (two monarchs), since in our own wikipedia article about monarchy we define it as "a form of government in which a person, the monarch, is head of state for life or until abdication". Neither co-prince of Andorra qualifies, since the president of France is democratically elected every four years and the bishop of Urgell can be replaced at any time by the Pope. --RR (talk) 14:04, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Andorra? 

message: No succession column even though mentioned in Key,
Heir/Heiress Presumptives are also under heir apparent column. column header should be changed or heir presumptives should be marked.
Chamika1990 (talk) 03:59, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Key and Column Headers 

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message: Wouldn't it be better to have Elizabeth II listed once, instead of 16 times? GoodDay (talk) 04:02, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duplicate Elizabeth II's 

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message: A user asked why North Korea isn't featured, since it has a hereditary system and the response was, "then we'd have to add Syria, Cuba, Togo, Gabon and the Democratic Republic of Congo as well", but why aren't we adding those along with North Korea, since they have hereditary power passing.  ReaIdiot (talk) 02:47, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  North Korea, Syria, Cuba, Togo, Gabon and the Democratic Republic of Congo 

message: There are Kings that rule a district, not a country. Examples:  African kingdoms. Wikistallion (talk) 16:26, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: These are on List of current constituent monarchs and its subpages. CMD (talk) 03:15, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Africa. a kingdom is a kingdom. 

message: Should the Taliban emir, now the effective head of state of Afghanistan, be included in this list? Comments welcome; I am aware the Taliban gov’t does not have much official recognition but it IS a reality now. PeaceInOurTime2021 (talk) 18:20, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Only if reliable sources refer to them as the monarch of Afghanistan. CMD (talk) 01:56, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emir of Afghanistan 

message: Brunei gained independence from the United Kingdom on 1 January 1984, so the Sultan's reign as a "sovereign monarch" starts from 1984 not 1967.  Peter Ormond 💬 09:20, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. The title of the page is clear, and Brunei was not a sovereign state prior to 1984. 2A00:23C8:4380:3D01:E09E:7774:8226:1DF (talk) 20:01, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brunei 

message: The Commonwealth section needs a whole revamp. I added Charles at least but I'm not skilled enough to change everything Nintentoad125 (talk) 18:03, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charles 

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message: The length of the reigns of the monarchs hasn’t been updated since February 21st, 2023. Before that, it was updated daily. Could someone do something? 2601:603:4D00:E600:51A9:FE82:ABEE:39E8 (talk) 01:41, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updating dates 

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message: Talking about the UAE. 82.36.70.45 (talk) 01:05, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: He is a monarch as ruler of Abu Dhabi, and is elected by the other monarchs to serve as the national head of state. RS still consider him a monarch in this role because only one of the monarchs can be elected president. It’s not open to the general population. He is an absolute monarch over Abu Dhabi, and a constitutional monarch nationally. 25stargeneral (talk) 01:11, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! 82.36.70.45 (talk) 01:33, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  How’s a president a monarch?