Talk:Portuguese Brazilians

message: Finally, it should be noted that most of the Brazilian elite up to very recently was mostly descended for Portuguese immigrants. One only needs to note that most of the surnames in the Presidents of Brazil are Portuguese, for instance. Another example of this clear domination of Brazil's politics, economy, and culture by Portuguese descendants is the fact that up until recently the Portuguese were the only foreign citizens in Brazil that could run for Presidency, provided only that they would acquire Brazilian citizenship tag 
This is very relevant
--193.136.74.101 (talk) 14:17, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Unsourced informations. Please, read: No original research. Opinoso (talk) 15:25, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's not unsourced just read the Brazilian constitution before the last major changes. As to the portuguese and portuguese descendents making up for most of the Brazilian elite just look at a list of Brazilian ministers and presidents. It's self-evident  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.108.71.37 (talk) 01:46, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Relevant

message: Most of these Portuguese were men. The number of Portuguese women in Brazil during the colonial period was low. For that reason, many Portuguese men had relationships with Amerindian women and, later, with female African slaves, which then resulted in racial miscegenation.  Please show valid sources for this claim.  Thank you, Paulista01
: 
Do not remove informations before using the talk page. Opinoso (talk) 20:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, they can. Opinoso (talk) 16:23, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not the place to argue if a source is reliable or not. And this is not the place to ask if other users are professional historians or not. All the sources there are reliables and if you do not agree with them, there are special parts of Wikipedia to discuss the accuracy of a source. 
Moreover, what's your point? You cannot deny the fact that Portuguese colonial settlers were mostly men, and Portuguese women were a minority, and that Portuguese had a huge process of intermarriage with African and Amerindian women. Brazil is not the United States, where entire families moved to colonize it. Brazil was a colony of exploration, like the rest of Latin America, and it was largely conducted by European men, which led a process of integration with locals and overseas slaves.
This is basic History that everybody knows (or, at least, should know). Have you ever heard about Casa-Grande & Senzala or any other huge book about this subject? Anyway, to remove sourced informations is vandalism, so is edit-warring. Bye. Opinoso (talk) 22:26, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Portuguese

message: Suggest deletion of the dialects map. It doesn't seem to illustrate anything in the text, and without a key it doesn't convey any useful information. Bagunceiro (talk) 11:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brazilian Portuguese Dialects Map 

message: I noticed Ninguém removed several informations from this article after several days of heavy and absurd over-editing this article. He actually "disappeared" with over half of the content of this article, particularly the parts about the Portuguese presence in colonial Brazil. I wonder why he did that? Opinoso (talk) 20:05, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: For a very simple and logic reason. Portuguese presence in colonial Brazil has nothing to do with "Portuguese Brazilians". Indeed, it seems you actually know that; for instance, you have removed Getúlio Vargas from this article, with an edit summary that says So what? He had nothing to do with Portugal. Why would the article on "Portuguese Brazilians" then discuss people who, like Getúlio Vargas, have "nothing to do with Portugal"? Ninguém (talk) 21:07, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not you who decides what is considered "Portuguese Brazilian" or not or what stays or not in an article. Stop removing informations now. Opinoso (talk) 21:09, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ninguem, what makes you believe that the Portuguese settlement during colonial Brazil was less important than the more recent Portuguese immigration and that these informations should be deleted? This is an ecyclopedia, and the more informations, the best. Stop removing informations. If you can't write an artciel, and least don't destroy them. Opinoso (talk) 22:07, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing informations 

message: Many of the people so listed are redlinked. I propose the removal to this talk page of anyone who's redlinked; such people can be readded if and when their links turn blue. -- Hoary (talk) 00:51, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: "Some notable Portuguese-Brazilians"

message: The "Portuguese-Brazilian flag" (this) is shown. Is this used to any significant extent? Its uploader (and creator?) simply describes it as "Flags of Brazil and Portugal overlapped". I rather suspect that it's not used at all, and that it is being used here for merely decorative purposes. If so, it should go (however amicably intended its addition was), because it doesn't tell us anything and its appearance here implies a real-world significance that simply doesn't exist. -- Hoary (talk) 00:57, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No response, so I have just now removed this invention. -- Hoary (talk) 00:05, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: "Portuguese-Brazilian flag"

message: Until a few minutes ago, we read:
:A Portuguese-Brazilian () is a Portuguese born person Brazilian citizen or a Brazilian of recent immigrant Portuguese ancestry, who keeps cultural ties to modern Portugal. [... O]nly people of recent Portuguese origin are actually considered descendentes de portugueses. (The expression luso-brasileiro is awkward and should not be employed except in formal context.)
I have no knowledge of the facts here, but was struck by the awkwardness of the exposition. I therefore attempted to rearrange all this for the better. If in doing so I altered the import of what's said, this was not intended. -- Hoary (talk) 01:42, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Portuguese terms

message: I don't know if the first paragraph was good a few days ago --
:A Portuguese-Brazilian (*) is a Portuguese born Brazilian citizen or a Brazilian of recent immigrant Portuguese ancestry who keeps cultural ties to modern Portugal.
::* Luso-brasileiro is an awkward expression little used outside formal contexts; descendentes de portugueses (descendants of Portuguese) is used in preference for people of recent Portuguese descent.
(certainly the use of a footnote was rather awkward) -- but I'm certain that it's not good now. Here it is:
:Portuguese Brazilians (occasionally known as Luso-Brazilians, although this may have a wider linguistic meaning) are citizens of Brazil whose ancestry originates wholly or partly in Portugal.  Nevertheless, it should be noted that when translated literally into Brazilian Portuguese, the term is often considered to refer exclusively to those of more recent Portuguese background. (my emphases)
#What's the meaning of linguistic meaning?
#it should be noted that is mere padding.
#Why not add the literal translation into Brazilian Portuguese of the term "Portuguese Brazilians" instead of just providing the gloss (when translated literally into Brazilian Portuguese, the term)?
More broadly, I infer that there is some Brazilian concept of Brazilians of a recent Portuguese background. I'd wildly guess that as this population has a social reality in Brazil it might merit an article in en:WP. By contrast, I'm given no hint that "Portuguese Brazilian", as it's used here, is anything more than a nonce alternative to "Brazilians of Portuguese descent". As an alternative, it's certainly shorter and in this way superior, but I wonder if it is not misleading. -- Hoary (talk) 00:14, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is an obvious problem with this formula: Portuguese Brazilians (occasionally known as Luso-Brazilians. As we are informed in the infobox, "Portuguese Brazilian" is translated into "luso-brasileiro". Which seems the same thing as "Luso-Brazilians". And certainly "Portuguese Brazilian" cannot be translated into "Português brasileiro" or "Brasileiro português", two expressions that don't make sence at all in Portuguese. So, actually, both "Portuguese Brazilian" and "Luso-Brazilians" correspond to only one Portuguese expression, "luso-brasileiro", and the formula cannot refer to the ways Brazilians call these people. So I suppose that the sentence is talking about two different expressions in English. Does the English language actually have two different expressions to refer to them? Do English speakers actually feel the need to make such distinctions about Brazilians of Portuguese ancestry? Or is this a mere acritical copy from English American (and are really "English American" and "Anglo-American" two expressions that refer to the same thing though the second may have a wider meaning)? Or are those, including "English American" and "Anglo-American" all baseless inventions, as the lack of sources for those usages seems to imply? Ninguém (talk) 01:24, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If I google for "Portuguese Brazilian" -wiki, I obtain this, which seems to not link to this subject at all. So I fear this isn't a widely used expression in English. Ninguém (talk) 01:49, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: As a native speaker of English with no particular connexion with the Americas -- other than interest (in the North, sometimes a horrified fascination) -- I'd say that "English American" means nothing to me, and so I'm untroubled when an article starts by saying what the term means in the article and then uses it for the concept so tersely described, as long as it doesn't pretend that the term is well established. To me, "Anglo-American" means something else entirely. I don't know if "Anglo-American" is also used for (real) demographics, but surely in pop demographics, politics and so on the (slightly pejorative?) term is plain "Anglo". ¶ I'd have thought that (a) the Portuguese contribution to the Brazilian population could be a legitimate subject, (b) the subpopulation of Brazilians who consider themselves Portuguese could be one too, (c) the former two would be related but also clearly distinguishable, and (d) a single article might beneficially discuss both but it should not confuse them. -- Hoary (talk) 01:52, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

text: The Portuguese contribution to the Brazilian population seems to me to fit better in articles like History of Brazil or Colonial Brazil on one hand, and Demographics of Brazil or Race in Brazil on the other. Of course, we could try to change this article into "Brazilians of Portuguese descent", and include both this subject and that of Brazilians who consider themselves "luso-brasileiros", striving to explain that these are different things and come in different numbers (perhaps 140 to 160 million Brazilians of Portuguese descent, and about 1.2 million members of the "colonia portuguesa"). An article or section about these 1.2 million people should be centered on their particular identity and organisations, not in underlining "influences" that for the most part relate to the other, much bigger, demographics). Ninguém (talk) 15:02, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: The very first paragraph

message: First, this: 
These are supposed to be sailors of Cabral's expedition, as they were imagined by Victor Meirelles. Now, Cabral's expedition left two degredados in Brazil. Two sailors deserted. No settlers at all. Indeed, they spent a few days in Brazil and sailed back to their main mission, which was to India. How are those the "first Portuguese settlers celebrating the first Mass"? Ninguém (talk) 17:19, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reintroduced pictures, and their captions 

message: Are Marília Pêra and Daniela Mercury the best examples of Brazilians of Portuguese ancestry? What about Honório Carneiro Leão, Marquis of Paraná, or José Paranhos, Viscount of Rio Branco, or Luís Alves de Lima e Silva, Duke of Caxias, or José Bonifácio de Andrada? --Lecen (talk) 11:08, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: They are fairly good examples for me because they are immediately recognizable by many users. I think 19th century Brazilian nobility images, wouldn't be so useful for that purpose. Smsagro (talk) 14:06, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aren't there better examples? 

message: I removed this new edit for two reasons, firstly, I find it very odd stating that French immigration accounts for 52% of European DNA in Norte Region; Italy for 61% in Nordeste Region. Second, this is specialised data, at odds with the tone of the article. The editor who introduced this section is new here, started this month, most early edits (or a similar nature) have been reverted, but yet, despite messages on his/ her talk page, simply reverted, resinstating the content, without any edit summary and obviously ignoring messages on talk page. Rui Gabriel Correia (talk) 19:17, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed that the table is WP:UNDUE. The study is a highly specialised one examining Y-SNPs and, if it belongs anywhere, it belongs in a genetic studies article explicitly. If the user wishes to discuss their additions to the content, please follow the bold → revert → discuss process as has been asked of you. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 19:49, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table of DNA data 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018)