Talk:Body integrity dysphoria

message: Isn't it great that this page is a stub?
Apotemnophilia doesn't have to be a fetish for amputation or be of any sexual nature at all. As for transexuals, the personal image of the own body doesn't compare with how the body really looks. The apotemnophilians often describe their body as incomplete without an amputation and can have a life long suffering keeping the arm, leg, hand (or whatever limb the case may be about). User:85.225.242.160
:I agree - only this article seems to have been largely written without any input from people with apotemnophilia at all, hence it is less then ideal. As for many similar traits with transsexualism, yes, I completely agree on that; especially the handling of people is extremely similar. And the ICD still lists "transsexualism" right above "fetishism" and "pedophilia"; not quite where it belongs, but to change these things is a Sisyphus' work. -- AlexR 21:05, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Not a fetish

message: * Does this have any relationship to alien hand syndrome? 
:*AFAIK not, people know their leg (or whatever) is there, and can use it just as the other one. Although, generally, there is not all that much research on the phenomeon, and most is the kind of "how can we fix it" that probably won't yield any results; my impression. [AR]
* Or self-mutilation?
:*Technically, it is self-mutilation, although not of the cutting kind. It is also more than concievable that some people suffering from it also self-mutilate with cutting and the like to relieve stress. [AR]
* In general, does removing the limb make these people content, or do they then just fixate on having something else chopped off?
:* In general, yes, although I would expect, analogous to transgender people, some problems in some people simply stemming from having had to fight for it so long and all that. Again, afiak no data available on those. [AR]
* How many of those who do succeed in getting an amputation then regret it?
:* No data available yet - almost impossible to get surgery any legit way, which would include some sort of thorough psychological assessment first; and those having it done by a quack or pretending accidents probably don't exaclty talk about it. Again, if transgender is anything comparable, the rate would be about 1-2%. [AR]
* Also, is there any crossover / relationship between this and acrotomophilia, the attraction for amputees?  
:*According to many websites, yes - including people going from fan over wannabe to doing it. Then again, not exactly surprising, you've got ex-trannie-chasers and ex-"transvestites" enough among trans-people. It could be simply a way of reliving those feelings temporarily without having to face the consequences yet. [AR]
-- The Anome 14:40, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
:Guess you can tell what I work on mostly, however, in several respects, the parallels are striking (although the underlying condition is different; with the open question about those who wish to get rid of sex-related body parts). Unfortunately for apotemnophiliacs, they are about there where trans-people were 30 or more years ago, in other words, in a shitty position. Seems that at least some of those health care professionals who at least work with them are pioneers in working with trans-people, too. -- AlexR 15:03, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inquiring minds want to know... 

message: Being an amputee isn't the only aspect of BIID!  There are people who feel they need to be in a wheelchair.  When they go through life they feel like they are "meant" to be a paraplegic, or whatever.  I know this because I have this problem.  Paraplegic BIID isn't recognised at all compared to amputees.  I think this is terrible.  Because this isn't recognised, there is no real way of treating it.  I heard that DSM IV was going to include BIID in the next publication, but only amputees.  Why would someone who wants to use a wheelchair, or live as an amputee, when they physically don't need to need to, be mentally ill?  I guess there are two choices with this.  Either you are sick in the head and have BIID, or what you do is just plain wrong.  I prefer to choose the first option.  Although I would never want to place the label of mentally ill on myself, if it is a path towards "treatment" or relief of these feelings I am willing to take it.  In the 50s and 60s, transexuals had no "treatment".  They had to endure their pain and make do.  How is this different to BIID.  And then how can amputee BIID be recognised and paraplegic BIID not be?  Wouldn't my need to be in a wheelchair be just as valid?  Sometimes I feel I would rather be dead than to keep living without a spinal cord injury.  Even if I did elect to see a psychologist or a counsellor or something, there is nothing really that could be done, because paraplegic BIID isn't recognised, and no real study has been done on it, there is no real treatment.  I believe my only path of treatment is aquiring an SCI, but given the mental health feild's bias on this subject, would this be enough grounds to have them validate surgery?  For some people, yes maybe being treated for OCD or something else and having meds works.  And maybe for others ignoring it does.  I've tried ignoring it.  The pain just gets so overwhelming.  People discuss and reject my feelings and emotional pain as if these things are a choice.  And yet we also agree that my feelings are a form of BIID  I "know" I am meant to be a para, and that the way I am now isn't right.  So how is it that in this article there is no mention of wheelchair wannabes, and just amputee wannabes?  I looked this article up hoping to find more insite into who I am, but was deeply upset to not find any mention of wheelchairs!
This story tells the story of one man's struggle with BIID: https://medium.com/matter/8476df17bddf  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.7.12.135 (talk) 21:45, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I feel the same way about blindness. -- 79.64.243.30 (talk) 18:36, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  BIID and amputees? 

message: This line
:Some people suffer also from the desire of becoming paralyzed.
Seems out of context. On its own, it doesn't seem to fit in the article. I think it needs to be either completed to removed. User:Eje211 17:00, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove paralysis 

message: The article was almost an advocacy piece for making BIID equivalent to being transgender.  Interesting, but I think not appropriate for Wikipedia.  I edited it, but left in most of the editorialising attributed to BIID advocates/patients. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.245.218.64 (talk • contribs) 23:42, 4 April 2006  (UTC)
:Certainly the bit you removed was very badly written, but you ought to be aware that there are indeed several similarities between BIID and TG, particilarly in the reaction of other people to the respective conditions. And since that is AFAIK documented as well, I don't see why this does not belong into the WP. -- AlexR 05:23, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, they are both forms of self harm and should be dealt with similarly by WP. Chrononem ☎ 14:47, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  BIID Article 

message: While I was watching Primetime tonight about people that have this urge from the time they are little to be amputees--I immediately thought of a possible answer.  I know people will think this is crazy, but what if there is such a thing as reincarnation?  What if these people were amputees in their previous lives?  I think it makes perfect sense.  Not that these people should not be treated with an antidepressant or some medication.  But at least this could be a possible explanation behind their strong feelings.  
If they believe that this could be a possibility and that it could be cured or fixed with medication dampering this urge--it could at least help their suffering.  Sometimes not knowing why can drive people crazy.  There are people that have psychic abilities, people that can sense ghosts, people that think they can heal.  There are so many unusual things that people might be capable of feeling, thinking or doing.  We only are using 10 percent of our brains.  What if 90% of our untapped brain has capabilities that we just are not aware of?  We used to be positive that the world was flat.  How did the Mayans know about calendars?  Why is their calendar more accurate than our current calendars?  Watch the History and Discovery Channel and you will keep an open mind about many things.
Again, I know it sounds crazy, but strange things do exist.  Many people are afraid to admit having an open mind for fear of redicule.  But, some of the most ingenious of ideas and discoveries were also rediculed at first.
-Some of the stupidest ideas are also ridiculed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.75.58.163 (talk) 12:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  BIID Suggestion 

message: I removed the following from the article
:Some individuals, when asked why they want a limb to be cut off, explain that they have three legs and want to have two just like everyone else.  The third leg is between the other two.  In the building of robots, it is sometimes required that a middle "third leg" be programmed. This third leg does not exist, but it must be programmed in order to have functioning robots that walk on two legs. The middle third leg is a harmonic of the other two.  This may suggest that some people are simply aware of their "third leg", which everyone would have to have in order to walk, and that it may not be a psychological pathology per se.
Although nothing is currently cited in the article, to me this section stands out as highly questionable.  Does anyone have a cite for anything in the paragraph?  --TeaDrinker 21:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Robots 

message: Dr. First has begun his follow-up study on BIID. Read more about it on biid-info.org Wylz 10:40, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed the call to participate in this study. Though probably a good cause, I do not believe the call has encyclopaedic value. Furthermore, potential participants are highly likely to find a reference to the study on one of the external links or on this discussion page. 80.175.91.125 23:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dr.First's Study

message: Is it a violation of WP:NPOV to use terms like "disorder" and "suffering" in relation to this condition? I realize that the books use this sort of language, but I think we should stick to the more neutral term "condition" when not quoting directly. As I understand it, a condition only crosses the line into a disorder if the individual themself feels it is adversely affecting their life. Aelffin 15:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Wylz, thanks for your comment. I'll take a look at your blog. Clearly, most people with body identity differences do suffer a great deal, but my concern is that there are some--a small number to be sure--who feel that society's pathologizing of their preferred body image is the source of the suffering, rather than the body image itself. Aelffin (talk) 14:11, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Aelfin, sorry it's taken so long for me to get back to this.  The question of pathologizing BIID or not is certainly one that engenders discussion in BIID circles. I have my own opinion which would probably be too long to discuss here :)  However, I would argue that it's not society's pathologizing of the condition that's the problem, or the cause of suffering, but rather the innability of the medical establishment to proceed with surgeries.Wylz (talk) 06:14, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Aelfin, considering that the name of the condition is Body Integrity Identity Disorder, I think there's no issue with talking about disorders.  As someone who has *suffered* from BIID for the last 35 or so years, I can tell you that it is adversely affecting our lives (you may wish to read one of my blog entries about it).  No, I really don't see a problem with refering to disorder, nor the use of the word (or even concept) of suffering.  Wylz 10:36, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Wylz, thanks for your comment. I'll take a look at your blog. Clearly, most people with body identity differences do suffer a great deal, but my concern is that there are some--a small number to be sure--who feel that society's pathologizing of their preferred body image is the source of the suffering, rather than the body image itself. Aelffin (talk) 14:11, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Aelfin, sorry it's taken so long for me to get back to this.  The question of pathologizing BIID or not is certainly one that engenders discussion in BIID circles. I have my own opinion which would probably be too long to discuss here :)  However, I would argue that it's not society's pathologizing of the condition that's the problem, or the cause of suffering, but rather the innability of the medical establishment to proceed with surgeries.Wylz (talk) 06:14, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: No problem with that

message: How is this a disorder only when it isn't applied to genitalia? We shouldn't treat this any different from Gender Dysphoria, either treat them both as a disorder or treat them both as an identity crisis. Chrononem ☎ 14:45, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Double Standard

message: What's with all the weasel-words?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.225.177.21 (talk) 05:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Weasel words

message: Really?  Is there anything like consensus that the condition is neurological?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.200.166.227 (talk) 07:20, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Although a great many sexologists (including me) do indeed believe that BIID has at least largely neurological, there is no good research by which to come to any real conclusion at all.— James Cantor (talk) 13:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neurological? 

message: I've moved the following to the talk page.  They were in the external links section, but they are much more accurately labelled "unintegrated sources".  The EL section is not a place to put sources that haven't been used yet, it's for pretty specific stuff.  WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 02:16, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: I think the article should separate those who want to amputate because they have BIID and those who want to amputate because they have a severe condition like diabetes or a tumor. I added the following to the article
But it could be argued BIID is a medical justification for amputation. Andrea Carter (at your service | my good deeds) 06:53, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diabetes and tumors 

message: ""Transability", an almost identical disorder, is medically recognized by the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-5, but BIID is not."
I cannot find "transability" in the DSM-5, nor can I find anything referencing it.  Can anyone give me a page number for it?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by NicholaiJS (talk • contribs) 21:13, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can someone give me the page number for "Transability" in the DSM-5? 

message: I think you have come up with a good solution for the dueling articles on Apotemnophilia and Body Integrity Identity Disorder --it's minimalistic but it fits Wikipedia.Neurorel (talk) 04:38, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Revised Body Integrity Identity Disorder

message: "People with this condition may refer to themselves as transabled."
Do they, though? Mercury.ascended (talk) 00:20, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @Mercury.ascended i agree, i think a section should be appended on discussing the pushback against the term, as it hijacks language used to talk about gender identity and transgender people in a way that perpeatuates harm. some people do genueinely use the term so i think that is a factual statement, but many people argue its use is degrading to the trans community and that should be mentioned to balance the article, since right now it reads as if the term is an accepted identity when it very much is not. 82.29.77.60 (talk) 15:38, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  I don't think it's very adequate to use "transabled" in this article, considering how it's a term used to attack both disabled and trans people alike 

message: Are there cases of self-identified “transabled” people who desire to have other disabilities, including those which _can’t_ actually be acquired in adulthood? I seem to recall reading somewhere about a person believing they should have had Down syndrome, and not feeling authentically like themselves without it.
Down syndrome, of course, is something you’re either born with or you’re not, and it can’t be acquired later, unlike amputee status, blindness, or deafness. Wanting to have Down syndrome (when you actually don’t) almost seems analogous to the otherkin subculture in a way, since they are longing for a transformation that is literally impossible. If there’s been any documentation of such “impossible” desires among people with BIID, it should probably be mentioned in the article. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:F2CD (talk) 21:32, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-amputation examples