Talk:Virginia Tech shooting/Archive 1

message: EDT is UTC-4, not UTC-5
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.31.41.254 (talk) 18:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  wrong timezone 

message: a friend says this (at VA tech, i know it's not going to be posted to the wiki but figured you guys want to know :
As most of you know, Kevin his an EMT in Christiansburg/Blacksburg.  Brian just called to say that 31 
have been confirmed dead in todays shooting - the news is still reporting 21.  
  
 Kevin was actually in the back of the ambulance with the shooter who was already dead, a 20 year old 
student who lived in AJ, shot and killed 2 people before the shooting occurred in Norris. 
  
 There were over 60 people shot and inured or killed.  The news is only reporting 21 but 
they found another classroom with 9 people dead inside.
:Dear God... 60 shot!? Even assuming the gunmen was an AMAZING shot, he still must have fired well over 60 rounds, probably closer to 70-80. This is unbelievably awful! I am in total shock as to how someone can get off that many rounds without police intervention! I am so sad now. I hope your friend is wrong, I hope 21 is right, because that's bad enough! So sad! -- Ubergenius 18:26, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: uncorroborated amateur reports 

message: BBC World now reports that there was one gunman, and there were two separate attacks, the second in a classroom a couple of hours after the other. Please verify that there was only one gunman when a reliable source emerges from the current news chaos. Also, Jesus Christ. --Kizor 16:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It always does in these situations, it's removed in seconds. How serious is the problem at the moment? --Kizor 16:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Gunman #

message: We need this edit-blocked ASAP. I see way too many conflicting reports.
-Domovoi 16:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A massive influx of edits is ongoing, yes, if that's what you mean. This happened with the mall shootings, this lasted for *days* with the London bombings. It's pretty much unavoidable - established editors are getting drawn in in great number, not just new ones, and blocking the page entirely would be hugely counterproductive - and might even be benefical, as Wikipedia's reaction time rivals the fastest news outlets. --Kizor 16:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: These things draw vandalism like flies. They also draw fly-swatters, if the analogy can take that. --Kizor 16:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Conflicting reports

message: - Columbine was 13 casualties 
- University of Texas at Austin in 1966, 15 fatalites.  Charles Whitman was shooter from campus Bell Tower. 
- Fewer casualties than Bath shooting 
- Virginia Tech shooting is therefore deadliest campus shooting in US history.
I believe there were 12 casualties in Columbine, and in this one there is 20-22. Malamockq 16:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. The numbers are widely reported on news websites, and the BBC World TV broadcast agrees with you. --Kizor 16:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More casualties than columbine 

message: Someone needs to do something to this. It's been vandalized twice in, like, five minutes. --Wjmoore17 16:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If nobody objects, I'm going to go ahead and semi-protect this article for the time being. --Wjmoore17 16:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems 

message: I have CNN screen captures. Does it violate copyright laws to post them, or is it PD? Or does anyone care at the moment?PublicSecrecy 17:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's fair use, but I for one don't really care right now. Be bold. --Kizor 17:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: CNN Screenies

message: I release this to be used by anyone:
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/4268/picture004ho3.jpg
PublicSecrecy 17:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Uploaded to Image shack

message: perhaps this page should be called the Virginia Tech Massacre, instead of the 2007 Virginia Tech Schooting, to be consistent with the format of the Columbine Massacre article.
:Generally we go for the most common name. As this is a recent event, it's best to go with shooting until a common name is established. Nil Einne 17:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (thrice conflicted) "Columbine Massacre" is an established expression. Since no such things exists for this event at the moment, shooting seems like a workable name. Check back in a few days. --Kizor 17:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: There's no established definition, is there? What is called a massacre is a massacre. --Kizor 18:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title change 

message: I don't think these specifics should be part of the entry's lede.
:You may be right. It's integral information, but putting them there is perhaps permature. They're now at the bottom. --Kizor 17:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comparisons to Columbine, Bath, etc.

message: The article claims that the shooter was reported by Fox News to be Asian-American. In the actual Fox News article, the student is only described as "Asian". If the student is Asian and is only in the US on a student visa, then he is not "Asian-American". This description should be edited until the shooter is identified.64.35.225.1 17:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Word. We should stick strictly to the sources. Editing, if I can. --Kizor 17:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: What does the source being Fox News have to do with anything? --Ali'i 17:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: What he said - though they probably wouldn't do that, they wouldn't get away with that. (Incidentally, a survivor just described the situation on BBC World as "absolute suck." Despite everything, I couldn't help but laugh.) --Kizor 17:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fox News is still a reliable source though.  And what would identifying someone's race have to do anything with politics?!?! You are confusing two issues. The edit to remove this  is ridiculous. There is a source right there. It's in the article. It is attributable. To remove it on some other basis is absurd. However, if you want to remove it on the basis of non-notability, that's a different story. --Ali'i 17:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  However, I'd keep it out for now based on the quote saying "According to one person..." --Elliskev 17:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that's a much better reason than simply because it was from Fox News, or "not sourced" (which it was... attributable, not truthified). --Ali'i 17:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I saw some photos of someone who looked like they were Asian being arrested. As it appears the shooter is dead, this was probably not the shooter and therefore may be a source of confusion. As such, it'll probably be best to leave it out until there is a better source. Remember this is wikipedia not wikinews. We don't 'report' every single rumour that appears in the media Nil Einne 17:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The photo of the Asian student being cuffed is being reported by Fox News as a reporter for the School newspaper who was 'questioning too vigoriously'. Verdafolio 18:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text:  Here are two images of the Asian student being arrested (sadly, taken from FOX news).  Does anyone have a source indicating why he is being detained?  I hope that they are not out arresting every Asian kid on campus, as bad as this situation is, I would hate to see a backlash against Asian students, by either the police, the administration or the student community.  fsu23phd 18:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asian-American student 

message: I don't see this in the source. --Elliskev 17:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Execution style 

message: The shooting was the deadliest college campus shooting in U.S. history, not the deadliest school shooting. RyzinEnagy 17:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That was what I wrote. I'll check if it has been skewed. --Kizor 17:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It had. Fixed. Thanks. --Kizor 17:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor correction 

message: I heard the 9mm Handgun on the CNN news broadcast and I think Fox News is reporting it too.  Also a first person report seems to confirm the use of a handgun. Can anyone get a print report of it?  Verdafolio 17:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  9mm Handgun 

message: This event is the deadliest school-related shooting in US history, but is not the deadliest school-related disaster, which was the 1927 Bath School disaster. In the first paragraph I have added that it is the "deadliest shooting is US history", which is correct, but in later paragraphs there is mention of the 1999 Columbine shootings and the 1927 Bath disaster, and it can become confusing and conflicting to note that this 2007 incident is the deadliest "shooting" at the intro, but later state it is second to the 1927 disaster as the deadliest "school incident". I think we should remove the second reference. — John Stattic 17:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what news reports you're listening to, but most I've heard have said it's the deadliest school/campus shooting in U.S. history which is correct. As discussed above, Bath was not a shooting Nil Einne 18:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  1927 Bath disaster dispute 

message: Are we not pre-empting the media by declaring this a "massacre" before it has been done so? --HappyCamper 17:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, also, discussed above... Moved back until consensus (either here at WP, or in the media) is reached on a name. --Ali'i 17:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Moved back as well. Please discuss page moves before effecting them. I think there's a specific move-block if this keeps happening. --Kizor 17:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree. However, we need an admin to move the talk page back as well. Search4Lancer 17:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Another administrator beat me to it. Pagmoves have been locked now. --HappyCamper 17:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I have no preference for name, but Google news search... --Elliskev 17:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's 42 items there. Compare with the other term, and there are 2,000. But this may change of course. --HappyCamper 17:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  Just pointing out that it is making its way into headlines - that's all... --Elliskev 17:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It appears to have been fixed. Let me know if you need me to wade through and kill some redirects. alphachimp 17:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move 

message: The school closings are due to high winds that are a danger to classes held in trailers.  Nothing to do with the shootings in Blacksburg. Wiredog 17:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the information, but we would need a link to a reliable news source attesting that to confirm. Can you provide one? --Kizor 17:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should ask for a reference for the closures first. Preferably one that links the two events Nil Einne 17:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: CNN made fleeting mention of weather, but they said that all schools were on lockdown, and that the University is closed today. They said it would be open tomorrow, but that there would be no classes. And that's the extent of their details. PublicSecrecy 17:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  From The Washington Post, on ther weather closings:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/16/AR2007041600351.html?hpid=topnews
Wiredog 17:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: That's from Northern Virginia, we're in Southwestern Virginia here in Blacksburg.  Classes were not cancelled otherwise the classrooms wouldn't have been shot up.  The weather is bad here, but the wind is nothing to cancel class over.  In fact, the last time Tech had cancelled classes it was over the Morva shootings.  They haven't cancelled for weather in some time.--JUDE talk 18:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Virginia Tech is definitely not closed because of the weather, but the primary schools in Montgomery County are closed due to weather. 204.154.43.244 18:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh okay thank you for clearing it up!  I don't really have any ties with primary schools.--JUDE talk 18:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  School closings weather related 

message: According to witness, shooting was on fourth floor of AJ (ambler johnson). http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3045605 Might be relevant in relation to those jumping from a window.
:Might be. I think we need a bit more data, since they panicked they could've been below (or, Heaven help, above) the events. --Kizor 17:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I don't think it was in AJ that they jumped... 204.154.43.244 17:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  AJ floor 

message: An additional reference in case it's needed for updates Roanoke Times Kmusser 17:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Referance 

message: This is a school massacre so the article title should be 2007 Virginia Tech Massacre not 2007 Virginia Tech Shooting. EnviroGranny 17:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please discuss above: #Page move --Ali'i 17:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't have an opinion on this, but it is extremely disruptive to move a main page featured article without consensus. I've protected this page. If you do wish to move the article to another name, I'd suggest gathering some sort of consensus here first. alphachimp 17:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: You might want to read up on wikipedia policy on namings first Nil Einne 17:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the Wikipedia definition of school massacre '"A school massacre is an incident of violence at a school involving at least one actual death."' EnviroGranny 18:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Massacre not shooting

message: ... and I don't have time at the moment to sort them out.  Could someone fix? --Yksin 17:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Talk page redirects are a mess 

message: Where is attributed from ? User:elg26  17:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ABC news had it I think --Wafulz 17:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  29 killed? 

message: This event is the deadliest school-related shooting in US history, but is not the deadliest school-related disaster, which was the 1927 Bath School disaster. In the first paragraph I have added that it is the "deadliest shooting is US history", which is correct, but in later paragraphs there is mention of the 1999 Columbine shootings and the 1927 Bath disaster, and it can become confusing and conflicting to note that this 2007 incident is the deadliest "shooting" at the intro, but later state it is second to the 1927 disaster as the deadliest "school incident". I think we should remove the second reference. — John Stattic 17:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I noticed this an changed the top part at least twice after it was removed or modified by editors who thought the Bath School disaster was a shooting. I put a hidden comment to try and avoid this repeating Nil Einne 17:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, Nil. It will probably settle now. --Kizor 18:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  1927 Bath disaster dispute 

message: Somone needs to fix the references. The Latest one is mislabeled and states that there are 29 dead when the article says there are 32. Blakwyte 17:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fox News reported 32 dead a few minutes ago.  I don't know if there's an internet source to confirm that though.  --musicpvm 17:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Whatever happens, when the numbers change, change the sources. Otherwise, the change will probably be reverted. If you change the numbers, it is your responsibiliuty to provide a reliable source demonstrating the change. I ran into this problem at the va tech article too. The numbers kept increasing, but the source still pointed to cnn saying 22. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: CNN is obviously behind. ITS 32 dead I dont' see why this is even an issue. Its amazing how big some of your ego's can be insuch a tragic situation.67.133.212.21 18:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  32 dead? 

message: I appear to have accidently reverted some edits due to an edit conflict I somehow missed. Apologies to all editors. Nil Einne 17:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't worry about it - stuff like that happens in the initial chaos, no lasting harm done. --Kizor 17:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apologies