Talk:Rabbi Akiva

message: The "biography" strikes me as containing a healthy dose of legend.  Can someone clarify what is and isn't established historical fact? Josh Cherry 02:48, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The entire article seems to be made up of legend, which was the reason I clicked on the discussion tab to begin with. Is there an objective biography of him available? :) --User:Jenmoa 19:02, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Jayjg would have had a point if the article on Jesus had been a simple summary of the four gospels. However, that article has a section discussing the historicity of Jesus as well as links to articles discussing different viewpoints. On a side note there is also quite a debate whether Jesus is attested outside the NT, in other "gospels", as well as in the writings of Josephus and some Roman historians. The NPOV version of this article should at least use words like "according to the Talmud".--itpastorn 15:09, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Biography vs legend

message: I have redirect the the article `Aqiba ben Joseph to here.  The aticle said:
`Aqiba ben Joseph (c. 50-132) was a Jewish Palestinian rabbi, of the circle known as tana. It is almost impossible to separate the true from the false in the numerous traditions respecting his life. He became the chief teacher in the rabbinical school of Jaffa, where, it is said, he had 24,000 scholars. Whatever their number, it seems certain that among them was the celebrated Rabbi Meir, and that through him and others `Aqiba exerted a great influence on the development of the doctrines embodied in the Mishnah. He sided with Simon bar Kokhba in the last Jewish revolt against Rome, recognized him as the Messiah, and acted as his sword-bearer. Being taken prisoner by the Romans under Sextus Julius Severus, he was flayed alive with circumstances of great cruelty, and met his fate, according to tradition, with marvellous steadfastness and composure. He is said by some to have been a hundred and twenty years old at the time of his death. He is one of the ten Jewish martyrs whose names occur in a penitential prayer still used in the synagogue service. `Aqiba was among the first to systematize the Jewish tradition, and he paved the way for the compilation of the Mishnah. From his school emanated the Greek translation of the scriptures by Aquila of Sinope.
;References
* 
ben Joseph, 'Aquiba
ben Joseph, 'Aquiba
If you see anything that should be added here, please do so.  Jon513 21:37, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  merge 

message: I am going to try to fix some of the issues with this article.  Let me take a crack at it, and then we'll see.  —Dfass 02:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm done with it now.  I merged a large amount of material from the Jewish Encyclopedia article with the existing material here.  I moved some of the more "legendary" content to a section of legends at the end (as per JE), but kept some of it up front as well.  I hope this will satisfy everyone, but I know it won't, so fire away.  I will now return to editing more obscure articles that no one cares about.  Thanks.  —Dfass 19:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fixing 

message: The article contains this:  His doctrine concerning the Jewish Messiah was the realistic and thoroughly Jewish one, as his declaration that Bar Kokba was the Messiah shows. He accordingly limited the Messianic age to forty years, as being within the scope of a man's life—similar to the reigns of David and Solomon—against the usual conception of a millennium (Midr. Teh. xc. 15). A distinction is, however, to be made between the Messianic age and the future world (עולם הבא). This latter will come after the destruction of this world, lasting for 1,000 years (R. H. 31a). To the future world all Israel will be admitted, with the exception of the generation of the Wilderness and the Ten Tribes (Sanh. xi. 3, 110b). But even this future world is painted by Akiba in colors selected by his nationalist inclinations, for he makes Messiah (whom, according to Ezek. xxxvii. 24, he identifies with King David) the judge of all the heathen world (Ḥag. 14a).
Could someone explain the first sentence to me and why it is valid to be in this article?  The implication seems to me to be that Akiva was 100% correct in interpreting the Hebrew Bible's references to the coming Messiah.  At the same time, though, it uses Akiva's embracement of a false Messiah as the actual Messiah as evidence that his views were 100% Jewish and therefore correct.  This doesn't seem to make sense to me at all, unless the writer of this seems to think that choosing a false Messiah is Jewish (which I don't think was the intention whatsoever).  Surely Akiva's declaration of Bar Kokba as Messiah was wrong, and not perfectly in line with the Hebrew Bible.  Clarification welcome.  -- DavidC99 (talk) 19:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "His doctrine concerning the Messiah was the realistic and thoroughly Jewish one, as his declaration that Bar Kokba was the Messiah shows. He accordingly limited the Messianic age to forty years, as being within the scope of a man's life—similar to the reigns of David and Solomon—against the usual conception of a millennium (Midr. Teh. xc. 15). A distinction is, however, to be made between the Messianic age and the future world (). This latter will come after the destruction of this world, lasting for 1,000 years (R. H. 31a). To the future world all Israel will be admitted, with the exception of the generation of the Wilderness and the Ten Tribes (Sanh. xi. 3, 110b). But even this future world is painted by Akiba in colors selected by his nationalist inclinations; for he makes Messiah (whom, according to Ezek. xxxvii. 24, he identifies with David) the judge of all the heathen world (Ḥag. 14a)."
75.14.219.123 (talk) 19:05, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  On his view of the Messiah 

message: Is the Jewish Encyclopedia old enough to be public domain? Large sections of the article match word-for-word with the JE article. That would seem a bit on the plagiarism side of things unless it is public domain and then simply citing the source would be sufficient.
Does anyone have the copyright information on the JE?
Theolog (talk) 15:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's PD.  Published 1901-06; so before 1923. Jheald (talk) 22:51, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish Encyclopedia 

message: *A rule was later established: "whenever Rabbi Akiva disputes a single sage, the halakhic ruling follows him, but not so when he disputes more than one sage."
* The Roman judge who condemned him sentenced him to a punishment that was unusually severe even by Roman standards: flaying alive. 
*Participation in a rebellion would be a more serious threat to Roman rule than merely teaching a deviant religion—even one that questions the validity of worshipping the Emperor as a god. 
*[Rachel answers] "The greater, the higher a man's task is, the more he must endure, the more he must fight and suffer. An ordinary simple man who doesn't bother about anything usually lives a quiet an undisturbed life. The man who wants to do something, who is concerned with the general welfare has troubles and worries. When G-d elevated Israel and chose us from all the nations, He placed us in the midst of every conflict. Wherever something great is being fought for, Israel must be there. Few peoples rise above the others, to put their foot on the neck of the nations. The various generations come up, grow, flourish and disappear. Israel must play its part in all of them. Of course, that involves suffering and sorrow. Sometimes we are hurled down to earth, and the ploughs are drawn across our backs and we are marked by long furrows. But G-d has always raised us up again. He has never punished us as He has punished those who torment us. He has never doomed us to die like those nations who oppress us. If we must suffer more than other peoples, G-d has also given us the strength to bear our troubles; to endure." 
*According to the Talmud, [Hyrcanus  was a neighbor of Joseph, the father of Akiva]
Please do not return this information to the article without a citation.--BirgitteSB 00:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's probably all from the Jewish Encyclopedia article. 75.14.219.123 (talk) 19:09, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contested statements removed 

message: I was tagging some books of Joseph Opatoshu (different revisions and translations). There is an article Bar Kokhba revolt. This article is using different other variants  Relationship with Bar Kochba, Bar Kokba revolt maybe some others. Regards ‫·‏לערי ריינהארט‏·‏T‏·‏m‏:‏Th‏·‏T‏·‏email me‏·‏‬ 17:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  puzzled 

message: I previously removed the sentence re: founded rabbinical Judaism. Rabbinical Judaism was not 'founded' by a person. The original Judaism is orthodox Judaism, which is synonymous with what you have called rabbinical Judaism. Since the inception of Judaism as a religion (which was formally at Mt Sinai, when the Jews received the Torah), what you have deemed rabbinical Judaism has always been the case. Both the Oral Torah and the Written Torah were given at Mt Sinai (according to Judaism), and the fact that this was only written centuries later does not mean that it was established centuries later. Rabbi's existed from the time of Mt Sinai (Moses as the 'head' rabbi of sorts), with the 70 elders also being rabbis, and their methods and authority having been established at Mt Sinai. Read the Torah before make claims to the contrary. Karaite Judaism (which exists minimally today) was an offshoot of Judaism back then just like Reform and Conservative Judaism are today. They do not represent Authentic Torah Judaism at all, and thus while they need to be distinguished as Karaite, Reform or Conservative Judaism - Judaism itself does not need to be distinguished as rabbinical Judaism, but rather only out of necessity as orthodox Judaism in order to distinguish it from the offshoots of Judaism.
The term rabbinical Judaism is offensive on a number of levels, and to posit that it was ever founded at any time other than at Mt Sinai is contrary to Jewish belief and what is found in the Torah itself. The article on rabbinical Judaism should thus also be deleted and any relevant and true information inserted into the article of orthodox Judaism.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.133.54.96 (talk) 22:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Rabbinical' Judaism 

message: Regarding the IP adding lines like
:As he recognised Bar Kokba as another Messiah so he was directly responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem and causing its inhabitants to be sold as slaves in Egypt.
This fails some policies of Wikipedia (below).
*"Bar Kokba as another Messiah". Another to what? the Jewish Messaiah to come, Jesus, the rebels of the First Jewish Roman War? All these links show that you consider the view of BK as Messiah in comparison to some, better, worse or equally bad, messianic views.  We cannot express those positions but only what academics make of the historical phenomenon of BK messianism and its context.
*"he was directly responsible". That's an accusation. we can report the results of the revolt but not decide who shares what part of the blame. We also don't have very good reports on the dynamics with the BK camp, but probably some theories can be found (please do).
*"for the destruction of Jerusalem". There is an ongoing disagreement between historians about whether the destruction of J was actually a result of the revolt. the fact you sidestep that discussion or not aware of it show too you write from a religious or ideological viewpoint. Because it is a little complicated, it is best left the articles about the revolt and about Aelia Capitolina, and not the connected biographies.
*"causing its inhabitants". Again, keeping the focus on Jerusalem ignore whatever details we have of who and where participated in the revolt (even from the Talmud I think).
*"to be sold as slaves in Egypt." That's completely off the conduct of wikipedia and the historical understanding. Egypt was no side here. There is no direct indication to that consequence. Slave went out the land in the previous war and probably on other occasions. Incidentally, you don't seem to be aware of the prominent opinion that there no enslavement in Egypt as told in the bible.
Finding or writing up historical ironies is not our business here. these overarching stories end up as minefields and it's not a good idea to treat all attachable topics on the articles on persons with some significance and documentation within Rabbinic Judaism, when much wider areas should be assessed. This is one of the problems of what we call Giving unde weight.
What you wrote clearly a peace of Original Research, which is what wikipedia tries to avoid. At that, it is at best the result of Synthesis of published material, also sanctioned on Wikipedia. At worst it is a Fringe theory, which seems most the case as you don't indicate the use of any Reliable Source. Its religious or ideological flavor goes against Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.
When a conflict like here arises, users are expected to use this talk page to decide on a solution. If you respond to this message that would be a good second chapter in your efforts. If you revert the article back to your version without response, I will request page protection. trespassers william (talk) 16:12, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Semi protection requested. trespassers william (talk) 22:35, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  , you declined semi protection . How do you suggest effectively contacting 91.125.168.74 , 78.149.26.46 , 87.113.3.88 , 80.189.26.199 , 87.112.71.110 , 87.113.95.40 , 87.115.157.34 , 87.112.232.48 , 109.65.57.238 , who together made about 23 similar edits without responding to objections? trespassers william (talk) 13:04, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV edits 

message: I do apologize for wandering into an area in which I have little familiarity and certainly not the expertise to properly remedy this, which is why I have posted here.  I noticed an edit to this page; upon comparing the diffs, noted that the old version leveled an accusation against the Septuagint, "the errors and inaccuracies in which frequently distorted the true meaning of Scripture", and put quotation marks around "proofs" to imply to the reader that Christian defenses based on the Septuagint were invalid.  The new edit responded to this by providing a defense of the Septuagint and by equivocating on how Christians were using it.  The diff in question.  Neither is necessary (and I noticed the apparent lack of citation for Akiva actually accusing the Septuagint of such, which is why I removed both assertions).  It is sufficient to provide phrasing e.g. "Akiva was motivated by a belief that Christian defenses based on the Apocrypha were invalid due to the presence of errors and distortions in the text" or "Akiva believed the Septuagint to contain errors and inaccuracies which distorted the true meaning of Scripture" rather than having Wikipedia itself assert such a statement as fact.  It is of course necessary to also provide citations to show that this was indeed Akiva's opinion.
The article itself seems to have a bit of an issue with tone, e.g. WP:PEACOCK for describing Aquila as a "devoted talmid" or "a man after Akiva's own heart"  - I've substituted "disciple of Akiva", but please correct if a different term should be used.  Also there seems to be some WP:POV issues, e.g. I'm not sure what to make of the modesty section.  IMHO, It is perfectly valid (and desired!) to explain Akiva's point of view, but not to present it in first-person here as fact -- I hope that distinction is clear.  Anyway, I made a small attempt (more of a hackjob, really) to remedy this in that specific section, but this article as a whole deserves a lot more work than I am able to give it.  Please forgive and correct any blatant errors on my part.  Thank you,
-- Joren (talk) 20:13, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: There seems to be a dispute whether or not this article should have a section entitled "Quotes" and where it incorporates the following quotes taken from this 2nd century Jewish scholar. One editor has voiced his concern that such quotes used in the article do not look "encyclopedic." Perhaps rewording of some entries may be necessary. Opinions are welcome. Davidbena (talk) 01:14, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: COMMENTS:
* For their insertion, although with perhaps some modifications.Davidbena (talk) 02:30, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the procedure for adding these quotes to Wikiquote? I've never done this before, but if you can give me basic instructions on how, I'll do it. Thanks.Davidbena (talk) 04:36, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I have edited Wikiquote for a while, and I would be perfectly happy to make that article if that is the consensus. Puzzledvegetable (talk) 02:03, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  , the Wikiquote article is here. Sro23 (talk) 02:40, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

text: Thanks to everybody, especially to Sro23. I'll try updating the Wikiquote article, as time permits. Feel free, meanwhile, to improve the style and translation of any quote.Davidbena (talk) 14:33, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can a section be added in article entitled "Quotes" 

message: Jesting and levity accustom a man to lewdness. The tradition is a fence around the Law (Torah); Tithes are a fence around riches; vows are a fence around abstinence; a fence around wisdom is silence.
	
All things are foreseen [by God], yet the choice is given [unto man], and the world is judged on [its] merits; yet, all is according to the preponderance of works, rather than the deed.
	
A plebeian cannot be pious, neither can a bashful man learn, nor a stern man teach!
 
Poverty is comely unto Jacob's daughter as a red lace on the head of a white horse.
	
Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself (Leviticus 19:18) - This is the all-embracing principle of the divine law.
 
Good humor is a safeguard to one's honor.
	
More than what a discipleLit. "calf" desires to learn,Lit. "suck" his mentorLit. "the cow" desires to teach.Lit. "give suck"
	
Modesty is a favorite theme with Rabbi Akiva, and he reverts to it again and again:
 
Take your place a few seats below your rank until you are bidden to take a higher place; for it is better that they should say to you 'Come up higher' than that they should bid you 'Go down lower'.Avot of Rabbi Natan, ed. Solomon Schechter, xi. 46
 
He who esteems himself highly on account of his knowledge is like a corpse lying on the wayside: the traveler turns his head away in disgust, and walks quickly by.Leviticus Rabbah i. 5. The same saying is quoted also in the name of Simeon ben Azzai.
	
A further example of Rabbi Akiva's oratory skills is in his funeral address over his son Simon. To the large assembly gathered on the occasion, he said: 
	
Davidbena (talk) 01:14, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: COMMENTS:
* For their insertion, although with perhaps some modifications.Davidbena (talk) 02:30, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the procedure for adding these quotes to Wikiquote? I've never done this before, but if you can give me basic instructions on how, I'll do it. Thanks.Davidbena (talk) 04:36, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I have edited Wikiquote for a while, and I would be perfectly happy to make that article if that is the consensus. Puzzledvegetable (talk) 02:03, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  , the Wikiquote article is here. Sro23 (talk) 02:40, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

text: Thanks to everybody, especially to Sro23. I'll try updating the Wikiquote article, as time permits. Feel free, meanwhile, to improve the style and translation of any quote.Davidbena (talk) 14:33, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotes