Talk:2004 Haitian coup d'état

message: This article is in serious need of a bit of an introduction. As it is right now, there's a single sentence before it just jumps right in with the timeline, saying something like "The first city captured was . . .". We need to have a description of what the event was, the major players therein, the causes, the results, et cetera before we jump into the nitty-gritty bits of it like that. Something like "The 2004 Haiti rebellion was a conflict fought for several weeks in Haiti during February 2004 that resulted in the premature end of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide's second term, and the installment of an interim government led by Gerard Latortue. Rebel groups, allegedly aided by Big Brother and friends yadda yadda yadda; opposition was blah blah blah. Unrest had been growing among x since the Aristide government refused to privatize a, b, and c." And so on. I don't know enough about the issue or about Wikipedia introduction standards to write one myself, but there's got to be someone out there who does.
Kai 06:28, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly agree with Kai that this article could definitely use a much better, well-developed introduction.  Additionally, the article is still somewhat disorganized and in parts is poorly written, with some information being repeated unnecessarily.  Just some ideas.  Oh, and several parts should be updated to reflect later knowledge (such as "as of April 2004," which uses the present tense right after).  I think it would also be nice to mention a current state of affairs, even though the rebellion has been over for some time.  --Cromwellt|Talk 02:57, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction?! 

message: In August, this article was moved to "2004 Haiti coup" (from "2004 Haiti rebellion"), which I just noticed now. I don't believe this is correct. This article covers the full scope of events that occurred in February 2004: first a gang rebellion, then intervention by ex-soldiers into the rebellion, and ultimately an arguable coup as the final act of the drama (although that characterization of it as a coup is disputed by some and it is probably POV to directly assert that). I suggest it be moved back to the original title. Everyking 04:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A significant length of time had passed. Now I notice it has been moved back. I continue to strongly oppose this. "Rebellion" is a fully accurate and NPOV characterization; "coup" is arguably POV and only applies to the final stage of the events. Everyking 05:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Move (2006)

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Brazil Haiti 2005.jpg

message: Is "coup d'état" a NPOV term for what went on in 2004? I'm not sure. 206.135.142.245 19:14, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV title? 

message: The history as reported is more of a armed rebellion than coup d etat, [A coup d'état (pronounced /ku de'ta/), or simply coup, is the sudden overthrow of a government, often through illegal means by a part of the state establishment] take from the artical on coups in wikipedia. If the west was involved it would be more accurate to call it an intervention. I believe coup is being used because it is a loaded word to make a political statement. Wikipedia should be about facts not politics.(Lproth 08:56, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. If no objections I will change the title shortly.Ultramarine 12:01, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad to see it's been changed back. A coup is a coup, plain and simple -- there were certainly additional ingredients to this, such as the sheer degree of overt foreign pressure (ultimately involving military intervention) in favor of coup forces. But at the end of the day, it is a coup and as such differs little from other coups in the past (elite/paramilitary opposition to elected government, covert foreign involvement, civilian-elected government being strongly overarmed by an unelected paramilitary/military force, etc). "Coup" is not "a loaded word to make a political statement," it is an actual term with a definition and that's why it's used in the title of countless other Wikipedia articles about similar coups. 173.3.41.6 (talk) 02:28, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That's complete bs, this view would define any revolution and civil war in world history as a coup, which would be extremely simplicistic. A coup is done by an isolated internal force, usually from the military or intelligence service, it's done by a powerful part of the state system. A rebellion by the people or a part of the people is much more, and it is obviously much more complicated, as the article shows that: It is until today unknown and was not investigated whether the US orchastrated a coup and used a chance to get rid of Aristide, or Aristide actually sought for their help because he didn't want to die and only told that coup story afterwards because he wanted to save his political reputation or build up a political narrative for future elections, or maybe somewhere in the middle that the US pragmatically saw that France and the UN security council didn't want to send troops to save the country from the rebels, and so the only solution was to replace Aristide. This would make France the bogeyman and the US a pragmatic negotiator, only searching for a realizable solution and not hating Aristide (while the story of the boycotted 2000 election would have been a helpful reason but not a motivation to get rid of him). In fact, all of that is completely unclear, we don't know it. What we know is that there was a huge rebellion, that Aristide might have been killed if not evacuated and that no internal power of the Haitian state system removed him from power. The rebels and the inaction of the UN security council were the factors which put the pressure on him to resign, not a power factor in the Haitian state. Otherwise, the Fall of Kabul in Afghanistan would have been a coup, as well... which it wasn't. --SamWinchester000 (talk) 22:05, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  more of a rebellion than a coup d etat. 

message: I've reverted this article back to the way it existed in April, because a huge amount of content was removed in the meantime. The content outlining the course of the rebellion itself was written by myself, based on press reports, while the rebellion was ongoing in February 2004; at that time Wikipedia as a whole was very weak on referencing and I didn't think to add citations. I don't know if the content was removed for lack of citations or some other reason, but the content can all be verified and, while it absolutely should be referenced, that's no excuse to remove all the content. If anything in particular is disputed, feel free to remove and discuss the point here, or better yet, find the press report that the info came from in the first place and cite it. Everyking (talk) 03:15, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Deterioration of article

message: The 2004 Haiti rebellion was a regime overthrow following Haitian conflicts spanning several weeks of February 2004 and concerning the legitimacy of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide's presidency.
Consensus has been expressed on the discussion page regarding all of these pieces of information. Anyone have a problem with the mention of the Aristide legitimacy conflict as such?
Bleedingcherub (talk) 21:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  More information added to first sentence 

message: If people want to say that the Bush administration was responsible for the 2004 Haiti rebellion they owe readers a concrete explanation for it. Right now, motives are only vaguely referenced with the use of some extreme left-wing publications. Oh yeah, and if there is so much "extensive documentation" of U.S. involvement why is pretty much zero evidence presented. 69.133.126.117 (talk) 01:47, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Motives

message: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v26/n08/farm01_.html states that "Most of Aristide’s claims, initially disputed by US officials from Noriega to Donald Rumsfeld, are now acknowledged to be true. His enemies’ claims that Aristide met with officials in Antigua – Aristide said they were not allowed to move from their seats – were undermined by reports from Antigua itself. Noriega acknowledged during a House hearing that Aristide did not know of his destination until less than an hour before landing in the Central African Republic."
If someone wants to spend some time looking through the Congressional Record of the United States House of Representatives, then the testimony by Roger Noriega where he states that Aristide only knew his destination less than an hour before landing in CAR should presumably be there. A direct link to the Congressional Record would be best for this. Farmer claims it was in a "House hearing", so this should be quite verifiable from the obvious online source. Boud (talk) 20:03, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  US House of Representatives record - Noriega statement on plane flight 

message: Perhaps it could be clarified in the article as to why would US participate in the coup of a man that they themselves made sure came back to power for over a decade.--RossF18 (talk) 20:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  US/Aristide 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_haiti.htm
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--JeffGBot (talk) 08:16, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.minustah.org/pages/Militaires
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thread_title:  Dead link 2 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.law.miami.edu/cshr/CSHR_Report_02082005_v2.pdf
** In History of Haiti on 2011-03-29 14:29:37, 404 Not Found
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--JeffGBot (talk) 08:17, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 3 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://auto_sol.tao.ca/node/2882
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--JeffGBot (talk) 08:18, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 4 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.democracynow.org/static/haiti.shtml
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--JeffGBot (talk) 08:18, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 5 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.flashpoints.net/archive/archive-2004-Haiti.html
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--JeffGBot (talk) 08:19, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 6 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050801&s=klein
** In History of Haiti on 2011-03-29 14:29:37, 404 Not Found
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--JeffGBot (talk) 08:19, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 7 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.igloo.org/community.igloo?r0=community-download&r0_script=/scripts/document/download.script&r0_pathinfo=%2F%7B37abb2df-7c8d-4d64-b2f4-93265b5cc444%7D%2FLibrary%2Fciialibr%2Fnational%2Fyouthsym%2Fciiayo~1&r0_output=xml&s=cc
** In 2004 Haitian rebellion on 2011-05-25 07:44:51, 404 Not Found
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--JeffGBot (talk) 08:20, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 8 

message: I noticed that, despite the lack of consensus (here), someone has taken the matter into their own hands and has changed the article name to "2004 Haitian rebellion". As this name is not only the result of an undiscussed move, but also is not an accurate reflection of the content of the article (the article itself starts with the words: "(...) was a coup d'etat"), I have changed the article name back to 2004 Haitian coup d'état. - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 22:10, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: "Rebellion" was the original name and there was never any consensus to change it in the first place. The old title described the events more accurately and neutrally. "Coup d'état" could arguably be applied to the last act of the rebellion, when Aristide was forced out of office and into exile, but that account of events was not accepted by everyone. "Rebellion" covers the whole event quite accurately. Everyking (talk) 17:35, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Describing the coup as the climax of a rebellion is one way of looking at it; another way is to look upon the 'rebellion' as a mere lead-up to the coup. This article does the latter and has some quite good references to justify that approach. I wouldn't exactly say that naming the article 2004 Haitian rebellion would be more neutral. Such a name plays down the notion of a coup d'état and that is POV in itself. - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 15:24, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if we accepted that approach, the notion that the ouster of Aristide was a coup was very hotly contested. While I personally think it's fair to describe what happened as a coup, I don't really think it's NPOV to say so. Everyking (talk) 21:48, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand your reasoning regarding the NPOV-ness — or lack thereof — of the current name, but I don't agree that "rebellion" would be more neutral. Calling this a rebellion means not calling it a coup d'état, and that is POV in itself. - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 20:51, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverting name change 

message: Can someone who knows more about the context of the factors leading to the conflict add something to the "Washington, Aristide,..." section? Particularly in the first section that mentions "Washington negotiators"? It is not clear at all who these negotiators are, who they're negotiating with, or what they're negotiating for, or for what purpose, or what their other demands were. This just seems like a random fact with no context the way the article is currently composed. Dcb2124 (talk) 19:11, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes -- Roger Noriega, first and foremost, was a primary "negotiator" from the US (representing the primary US government opinion in favor of removal of the elected Aristide government) with Maxine Waters playing a very different role as a US "negotiator" (in favor of keeping the elected Aristide government in place). They both traveled to Haiti, as did another US official (with Noriega) and an official from France -- I forget both of their names but can look it up. I'll add some context to this section -- I have several good books and articles on the subject that I can cite. 173.3.41.6 (talk) 02:31, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Events Prior to 2004

message: Why is "National Revolutionary Front for the Liberation of Haïti" listed as a separate belligerent  from "United States" et al? IRI funding records clearly demonstrate that they were on the same side. Needless to say, they worked towards the same purpose and worked together in the relentless pressure applied on the Aristide government. As is, the article confusingly implies that there were 3 primary belligerent groups -- the government of Haiti, the paramilitaries (National Revolutionary Front for the Liberation of Haïti), and the US and related UN forces. That is confusing because it should be clear that there were only two sides to this conflict, not 3. I propose that the two latter groups be merged. 173.3.41.6 (talk) 02:24, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  division of "Belligerents" box is misleading 

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