Talk:Richard Dawkins/Archive 5

message: 218.185.94.226 23:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your interest in Wikipedia. However this talk page is for improving the article, not debating the issues. Maybe you would like to take these issues up directly with Professor Dawkins. --Michael Johnson 03:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not a Christian, though I'm not one to say who's right or wrong when it comes to beliefs, but what does this have to do with Charles Dawkins and him being an evolutionary scientist? I hate to sound rude or anything, but none of these sources prove that Dawkins was misguided in any other way than he is an Atheist and you don't agree with that. When you write a Wikipedia article, you have to be careful when making statements like that since it still counts as original research, you made the claim that he was misguided, not any of the other sources are challenging his validity as a scientist. When I asked you for proof, I ment that you needed a specific source stating he was wrong, not a hodge podge of religous benifits. DarthGriz98 03:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, I'll bite. 1)Mother Teresa was a fraud and a sadist. She spent most of the money donated to her on self promotion and evangelism. She was more interested in converting the dying than providing real help. 2) See Placebo effect. Faith healing, only works on self limiting conditions, which is to say illnesses that may get better without medical intervention. 3)Divorce rates are actually higher amongst christians than atheists. 4)Ditto. The population of the US is 75% xtian, the population of US gaols is 75% xtian. On the other hand, the US pop is 10% atheist, while the gaol pop is only 0.1% atheist. And in any case crusades, jihad, inquistion, sharia courts. Now... did you actually have some suggestion for the article or not? ornis (t) 04:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Rubbish, all of it. The problem with china isn't atheism, it's communism, a new religion as bad as any other. And you still haven't come up with a suggestion to improve the article. ornis (t) 05:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Professor of Private Misunderstandings of Many Things (POINTLESS FLAME-BAIT) 

message: I don't believe this to be a good article. Despite the fact that many millions of people disagree with Dawkins and some downright hate him why is there not a section of critisisms? It seems rather biased in his favour to me! Cls14 23:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the various comments above where a criticism section was addressed. What specifically needs changed? The article can be improved, but your complaint isn't valid. PatriotBible 00:32, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (1) This has been discussed again and again. (2) There is lots of criticism reported in the article. (3) The practice of having a dedicated criticisms section is not necessarily the best one - it is often deprecated. Metamagician3000 01:06, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps the answer lies in your own post. You directly imply two things: all the religious people of the world (and these are the millions you clearly refer to) disagree with Dawkins, therefore a criticism section would 'balance' the article; and, more disturbingly, that hate of a person legitimises serious criticism of them. With regards to the former, the very subject of the article – an atheist – makes this irrelevant. Of course theists disagree with him! That goes without saying, and another section would merely add baggage to the criticism already reported. As for the latter, hate is no basis for editing a Wikipedia article – certainly not one of a living person. This is the very thing Dawkins so vehemently opposes – religion's intolerance, to the point of hate, of any differing view. Lh'owon 08:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think he is referring to his scientific contributions. None of his ideas have withstood scrutiny as from the date of publication to the present there is a significant literature that opposes or criticizes his ideas. The selfish gene-DNA concept is based on false assumptions-junk DNA does have a function and it can influence the phenotype. The sociobiologist have long had a quibble over his reductionist approach and offer the genetic tendency of suicide as one argument. Further back in 70' Ohno published his book Evolution by gene duplication which supports gene duplication envolvment in evolution. I have enjoyed reading Dawkins and his ideas have logical appeal, however there is plenty of criticism. Positing untestable hypotheses is a definite weakness as Gould pointed out. As far as the hate reference, I think Dawkins feels the same. Neither side make good arguments with such venom. The article does bring up some of his critics as I note so this has been addressed.GetAgrippa 13:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can support all these arguments with reliable sources, please add them into the Criticism section. If not, stop spamming the talk page with identical posts.--Svetovid 23:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gould's distaste for Dawkins is legendary as the article already mentions. von Sternberg (for one) is very critical of the selfish replicator idea and states it is not a testable hypothesis. von Sternberg R. On the roles of repetitive DNA elements in the context of a unified genomic-epigenetic system. Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2002 Dec;981:154-88.There are also other hypotheses related to genome size and the large amount of noncoding DNA. Like the cell size and metabolic rate hypotheses mentioned in recent Nature and Science articles. I can dig up the sociobiology articles too, but I think the critique is already sufficient in the article. My point was not to diminish Dawkins but simply state there is plenty of criticisms against his ideas and the article already does a decent job of covering many of the arguments. I had hoped admitting he has critics and criticisms would address NPOV concerns (which keep coming up!)that this issue is not addressed (which it is). One could write a separate article related to criticisms, but I don't think it is warranted. I think it is best to stay on topic to his contribution, etc. and not get bogged down in side issues such as criticisms (of course he has critics what contributing scientist doesn't).GetAgrippa 20:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not tenable to assert - as Lh'owon does, above - that because theist criticism of Dawkins' atheism is predictable it is irrelevant to this article.  It is also predictable that Jews would be critical of anti-semitism, but no reasonable person would propose excluding the Jewish point of view from an article on anti-semitisim.  This is a useful and informative article but it has yet to achieve NPOV, and this tendency on the part of some editors to try to exclude reasoned objections to Dawkins' work is not helping.  While an attempt has clearly been made in good faith to weave criticism of Dawkins through the article, I have to admit that I was surprised on first reading it that there was no separate criticism section.  He is, after all, a high profile polemicist.  It has been argued here that such a section would only provide an easy reference tool for those seeking to discredit Dawkins; however, since criticism sections generally seem to contain rebuttals of each criticism, then such a section would also provide an easy reference tool for those seeking to defend Dawkins.  Wikipedia is after all an encyclopedia, not a university course.  It is the function of a reference tool to provide information, and not to dictate how that information should be used.  Catwizzle 09:46, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Well put IMO. What the article needs is more balanced interwoven criticism, not a section full of critcism. Why not rather get on with it and actually write the criticism you think necessary to make the article balanced than wasting time arguining over where in the article such criticism should go? (I'm talking to Catwizzle, not Joe). Mikker (...) 12:51, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The "criticism" section that has just been deleted was clearly in breach of wikipedia policies on neutrality and original research - so I am pleased to see that it was speedily sent on its way. But in any case the whole issue of a separate "criticism" section has been debated ad nauseam here, and the consensus is clearly in favour of not having such a section. Dawkins's specific ideas can be fairly criticised, and indeed are, and this is covered, topic by topic, within the various themes of the article. But the notion of criticising "Richard Dawkins" as a whole is unsustainable - a clear breach of wikipedia policy on biographies of living persons and an invitation to trolls and POV-pushing. If you think the article does not adequately deal with Dawkins' critics and what they have to say, please try and build it in to the thread of the narrative, and do not just tack on a section of anti-Dawkins rant. Snalwibma 20:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Sorry, but yes, it is a breach. •Jim62sch• 22:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: just because YOU say so? this is ridiculous. He has quotes on the page directly blaming religion for 9-11 he has received widespread criticism for saying this because it demostrates he is woefully ignorant (and as inaccurate as any creationist) of geo-political affairs-  and you and others are deleting those FACTS. the funny thing is you probably consider yourselves 'rationalists' it is not 'anti dawkins rant' Snalwibma  - it is demostrating his ignorance of gepoltiical affairs.Mywikieditor2007 16:36, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree; most of the criticism of him is either poorly-constructed personality attacks, dissatisfaction with his religious stances and other things. If there were some of his works which people criticised for a logical or scientific reason, then Criticism would be acceptable. But, just to say X Creationist publication or TV show says "Dawkins is a heretic" or "We hate Dawkins" should be limited to one statement with several references. Uxorion 17:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Good Article? 

message: This sentence was recently added/expanded (some of it was already there) in the Creationism section:Dawkins did, however, take part in the Oxford Union's 1986 Huxley Memorial Debate, in which he and John Maynard Smith won against A. E. Wilder-Smith and Edgar Andrews. The result of the vote was 198 votes to 115 (although there is some confusion over the creationist vote; in tape recordings of the event the Union President is clearly heard to say 150, not 115, when announcing the result).Huxley memorial debate "http://www.tonguesrevisited.com/oxford_union_debate.htm".I have moved the whole of the second half (from "The result" to the end) to the footnotes, as it seems unnecessary detail for the main text (and even the fact that the vote was won by Dawkins et al is arguably footnote material - the point is that he took part, not what the result was). I am rather suspicious of the link in the footnote, however - what is this "www.tonguesrevisited.com" website, and why are they selling CDs, and should it be simply deleted as spam? Snalwibma 06:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Metamagician3000 22:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The para relating to the debate seemed to be turning into a hermetic account of the small, niggling, vote-counting minutiae of the event. This seems at too great a level of detail for a lifetime biography compressed into a short encyclopaedia entry, so I have pared it back slightly.--Old Moonraker 07:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: That Oxford debate

message: It is almost impossible to use something like a TV interview without putting some kind of interpretation on it, so this is never a very good source to use. However, if we are going to use it, it should be as spin-free as possible, with no interpretations about whether someone was or was not "under pressure", whether anyone may or may not have been surprised by something Dawkins said, what the interviewer may or may not have meant by his questions, etc, etc. I've stripped this back to something more factual, but I question whether it should be there at all. It seems designed to suggest that Crawley somehow got the better of Dawkins in a debate, or some such thing. There were in fact many other points discussed, e.g. Dawkins' effective (from one PoV) response to arguments based on epistemological scepticism or the intransigence of religious debates. However, the best thing to do is not to put in more and more detail and interpretation but to question whether it is appropriate here at all, and if it has to go here on some point or other, to ensure that it is concise and factual. Metamagician3000 07:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edits to the relvant section are a big improvement IMO. The text, status quo ante, was clearly POV. I do think you have a point wrt the inclusion of the interview but Dawkins saying some religious people are not delusional should probably stay. Mikker (...) 14:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Having just watched the interview, I take that back. Dawkins simply backs off the claim that he meant to imply people are delusional in the sense in which mentally ill people are delusional. He clarifies what he means by "delusional"; he doesn't repudiate anything he's said before. I'm therefore going to delete the whole paragraph. It adds nothing useful IMO. Mikker (...) 18:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that. You're correct about what he says - that they are not literally delusional in that way. This isn't much of a "concession". Metamagician3000 00:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Crawly interview with Dawkins

message: I think it is well worth giving readers a chance to put Dawkins's views in the context of the wider community of the UK's top scientists.  Using a WikiPedia list with clear non-POV criteria (it's a matter of opinion whether someone is a "leading scientist" but it's a matter of fact whether or not they are an FRS) provides this in a NPOV manner.  As other FRSs are added to the list the value will be enhanced - like all WP articles it is not comprehensive but continually improving. NBeale 10:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As the FRS is a UK institution we must consider if the members to this list are equitable in the UK i.e. it is not a case of Apples and Oranges. Atheism is not considered a religion in the UK. Thus by UK law it is inconsistent for us to mingle what are clearly deemed to be religious with that which is not considered a religion on the same page. Ttiotsw 11:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your (NBeale's) particulsr addition in this case was blatant original research. I've removed it. Even if you went around finding what each FRS has or has not said about religion, that would be an exercise in selecting obscure and unconnected data from different places to sythesise a novel claim or narrative ("most FRSs are not anti-religious" or whatever conclusion you'd want to get the reader to draw). That is classic original research - which we don't do here. If you want to prove such a point you need to find another interested publisher. Metamagician3000 11:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: So ... you are using a wikipedia list as a source for the claim that you wanted to make in this article that Dawkins is one of the few FRSs to have expressed views about religion, etc. It may well be a true claim and doesn't bother me one way or the other if it is, but we should not be makkng it, especially if our source is another article in Wikipedia, which is not considered a reliable source. As for your more general point, readers can think what they like but it is not our role to lead them to form original conclusions based on selecting facts from here and there. If your list is designed to do that it is classic OR. In any event, even if it survived AfD (which it might if it looks innocent on its face) it can't be used as a source in this article. Please just edit less tendentiously. It's not as if there's any doubt that you are doing it; you make it very obvious. Metamagician3000 11:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was puzzled about what you think might be remotely contentious - but perhaps it's the word "few".  Would "as a FRS with well-known views about religion" be OK for you? NBeale 12:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, because then you are simply back to the tautology. It's completely redundant. It's not "as an FRS" or "as a public critic of religion" or "as a second-rate scientist from Oxford" that Dawkins is a "prominent figure". He is prominent in his own right. It seems to me that the only reason for inserting such a phrase is to point to your silly list at List of FRSs with public religious stances, which I sincerely hope will soon be sent to the trash can. Snalwibma 12:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Apologies for the tone of the above. A better way to put it is that the "context" in which NBeale thinks it is appropriate to place Dawkins here is a context that has no objective validity. It is a context that exists only in NBeale's own mind. See here for further explanation. Snalwibma 09:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  FRSs with public religious stances 

message: Apart from the fact that the list can't be used as a source for any conclusions that someone might try to infer from it, it is not, IMHO, appropriate for Wikipedia at all. We'll see what the community thinks about that proposition: I've created an AfD for it, and have notified NBeale on his talk page. Metamagician3000 11:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks; I was going to AfD it but didn't get round to it. Mikker (...) 14:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: AfD re FRS list

message: I've sought to re-open the peer review on the article, as it has changed a fair bit in the past year. Let's see what objections it draws. Metamagician3000 00:30, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Peer review

message: I've removed this quote:
My Trustees and I have set up the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science – RDFRS, or RDF. It is actually two sister foundations of the same name, one legally constituted in Britain and the other legally incorporated in the United States. It has an American trustee based in America (Karen Owens), an American trustee based in Britain (Claire Enders) and a British trustee based in Britain (me). At present, both organizations are companies, with applications for charitable recognition pending in their two countries.ref name = "Foundation intro">
It is no longer found on the Foundation's site, evidently because Dawkins is involved in negotiations to try to get charitable status for the Foundation, and all this wording is now subject to the outcome of the negotiations. We should monitor the situation to see the outcome and restore/reword as needed. Metamagician3000 12:32, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Foundation for Reason and Science

message: See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Richard Dawkins in popular culture. I don't care much for the fate of that article, as I just created it to have a repository for the junk that was showing up here. However, it appears that this AFD is going to be used as an editorial process to force a merger with this main article, as the nominator and others in the AFD have suggested. Some editors here may want that, others may not; everyone's input is welcome. — coelacan — 19:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I hate the pop culture cruft that attaches itself to articles like this one, on serious academic topics. Hiving off a separate pop culture article for those who are interested can be a good idea to keep the "main" article focused. But all I can say, if we are stuck with a pop culture section, is let's keep it brief - we need to maintain a sense of proportion. Metamagician3000 01:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I guess that's the good side of pop-culture ephemerality!  Anville 22:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm sorry "popular culture" - I don't recall Dawkins being on Big Brother.... nor do I even begin to believe that 90% of humanity can even comprehend his philosophical waffling. I've taken a look around and the only evidence on popular culture is that he's had a couple of best sellers. I'm guessing walking up to the average chav in a bar and asking them their views on Dawkins is going to be a fairly short conversation - so I don't see any reason why Dawkins would have anything to do with pop-culture. maybe pop-philosohical-debate-culture or extremely popular (for a biologist). No way is he a part of "pop-culture" - not unless pop just got an education. 90.152.12.130 13:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  AFD suggests merger with "popular culture" article 

message: What do others think of the recent addition of this section, plus associated external links? Looks like spam to me, and I think it should be moved to Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science (and slimmed down to probably no more than a link). I ask here because I don't want to be accused of suppressing well-referenced information! Snalwibma 08:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Totally agree. Move it, with appropriate edits cutting it down to just a mention, to the article on the Foundation. We're not here to try to discredit Dawkins, which seems like the more usual sort of problem, but nor are we here to promote ventures associated with him. Metamagician3000 09:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Snalwibma 10:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Growing Up In The Universe/Online Store

message: I have nominated athorism that is linked from this article for deletion. Please comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Athorism. --Merzul 20:19, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  AfD on Athorism 

message: Richard Dawkins is scheduled to appear on The O'Reilly Factor Monday, April 23rd between 11p-12a EST. It should be interesting... to say the least. -- MacAddct1984 13:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sadly it wasn't interesting. O'Reilly simply blustered and bullied his way through the interview giving Dawkins little opportunity to speak for more than a few seconds at a time. O'Reilly has his opinions and no reasonable argument will change them. O'Reilly's debating style is to shout his opponent down paying little or no attention to him. I don't suppose he'd even, as he'd claimed, read the God Delusion. Journalism at its worst. (Ajkgordon 08:08, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dawkins on The O'Reilly Factor 

message: I've added "advocate of atheism" to the lead sentence because I think Dawkins is now perhaps better known for this than for his other activities.--A bit iffy 07:45, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But why repeat it when his "advocate of atheism" is already implied in the third paragraph? Spellcast 14:35, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Advocate of atheism

message: Is this section necessary? WP:NOT says that If you want to enter lists of quotations, put them into our sister project Wikiquote. I was about to delete the section based on that, but the sentence after says, Of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic.... Any thoughts on this? Spellcast 16:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikiquote is the right place for a list of quotes. Mikker (...) 17:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The problem with Wikiquote is that fewer people know it exists. Anyhow, can whoever deleted the quotes please put them into Wikiquote, rather than simply deleting them ? Ta. Robma 22:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text:  Not only put them in Wikiquote, but please also link to Wikiquote from this article, so people will find them. Mlewan 19:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This ariticle has linked to Dawkins' Wikiquote page for nearly four years now.  Joe D (t) 20:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry! I pressed the Save page button too quickly. Should have checked on the page. Mlewan 05:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Quotes section

message: After reading through this section and seeing a small clique of pro-dawkins people seem to 'control' it, I don't think this is  a good article, and in fact I think the neutrality should be disputed. Mywikieditor2007 17:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Criticism sections are a bad idea. I've tried adding (diff) the main criticism into the relative section. --h2g2bob (talk) 21:46, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good job - seems well written and integrated. I see no issues with this edit. KillerChihuahua?!? 22:03, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

text: "Other stuff exists" isn't really the best defense in this case. GA and FA biographical articles generally do not have independent "Criticism" sections, so, why not work with other editors here to try to integrate particular examples of criticism of Dawkins' writings into the existing structure of this article (or, more specifically, the articles about his books)? -Severa  (!!!) 03:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: if there is a section specifically showing his 'awards and recognition' (positive) why not a section specifically listing criticism of him. Why not incorporate the awards and recognition into the rest of the text, if as the people claim, its better format? What is the process for 'de-nomitating' and article as 'good'- obviously the criticisms have been water down (as is the case in which KC thought was a 'good' edit. Mywikieditor2007 13:09, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Awards and recognition is exactly what you would expect to find in an encyclopedia. The information is presented without hype - essentially it lets the facts speak for themselves. Notable negative awards like "worst dressed scientist" or something would be equally acceptable. --h2g2bob (talk) 16:12, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that wouldn't be a notable award for a scientist.--Svetovid 19:45, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Go ahead - be bold, make the change! Snalwibma 18:28, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality Dispute

message: Perhaps some people here will find this interesting. Quote:
:I met some interesting people including the inventor of Wikipedia, the democratically assembled on-line encyclopedia which, by any reasonable standards, ought to be a total failure but somehow, unaccountably, comes through with flying colours whenever you look up something you know about.
Fredrik Johansson 14:07, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dawkins on Wikipedia 

message: There's a study cited by Dawkins in "The God Delusion" that was mentioned on atheism, but then deleted on the stated basis that we shouldn't cite a citation. Coincidentally, the people deleting it correlated well with theists. Maybe some of the editors here would like to weigh in on this question. ThAtSo 18:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I was one of the people who thought it was not good to reference something none of us have read. If you are assuming I am some kind of closet theist, you are mistaken. I have no supernaturalist beliefs. I do, however, have a thing about keeping Wikipedia articles to the highest quality I can manage. Metamagician3000 05:27, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dawkins on Atheism 

message: Just noticed that an earlier edit of mine correcting his nationality from English (a ethnic term, not one of nationality) to British (genuine nationality) had been reverted. I have again corrected his nationality to British. England is not a sovereign state, the United Kingdom is. People are citizens of the United Kingdom, not of England, and possess British passports, not English passports. English is no more a "nationality" than is "Texan" or "Breton" or "Québécois". Do not confuse ethnicity with nationality. siarach 14:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope you are kidding. Or do you suggest that citizens of Northern Ireland (British citizens) are not Irish either (those who are that is)? It's called nationality and not citizenship for a reason. Moreover, you can be both British and English (both are nationalities). You should try to change the English people article first then for it starts with: "The English are a nation native to England and speak English."--Svetovid 14:38, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have suggested nothing of the sort regarding Northern Ireland nor have i said anything which might be inferred to suggest anything of the sort. The almost universally accepted definition of nationality is that it is the same as citizenship. Yes one can be both British and English just as one can be American and Italian or French and Breton but the former is a reference of nationality while the latter one of ethnicity. Nationality is generally, indeed almost exclusively, understood to refer to the state of which one is a citizen and NOT ones race - the latter understanding being very much a fringe one (and in my experience confined only to wikipedia) and one i have (before now) only encountered in petty Scottish/English nationalists who doggedly refuse to accept that England and Scotland are not nations by the usual definition of the word which is sovereign state. Your reference to the English people article is irrelevant. However the sentence you quote is not incorrect - "nation" being a fairly vague term (although as previously pointed out generally understood to mean nation state/sovereign state) but its use in the opening sentence of that article does not vindicate the misleading use of nationality to refer to ones race or ethnicity and if you read the opening of the nationality article it quite clearly agrees with the definition of the word being tied to a sovereign state. You would not find profiles of non-UK citizens describing their nationality as being Bavarian, Prussian, Maya, Han or Zulu as opposed to German, Mexican, Chinese or South African and it makes no more sense to describe people of British nationality as being of English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish nationality. Indeed it is simply misleading and flies in the face of popular, orthodox, international understanding of what "nationality" refers to. siarach 17:08, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyway, moving along, surely we only need a single nationality here?  And British/UK is the obvious one, even if Dawkins self-identifies as "English" (which I'd be surprised at).  --Plumbago 17:15, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether he self identifies as English, Japanese or indeed Klingon it makes no difference to what his nationality is - this is dependant upon the sovereign state of which he is a citizen. siarach 17:18, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Although the current definition seems fine, nevertheless English is a nationality as England is a nation, "a country within a country" as the FCO puts it, a fact recognised by enough international bodies, and the UK government, for the idea of English nationality to be valid, it is congruent to claiming that the nationalities of Austrian & Hungarian did not exist in Austro-Hungary  --Gamma2delta 23:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: England is certainly a nation in one sense, but it isn't a sovereign state, and that's what it means for our purposes. The nationality of the English is British. English people carry a British passport. That's the way it works, right or wrong. The only important thing here is that we are consistent with the rest of Wikipedia.   We do not have to adjudicate in favour of a "correct" understanding of 'nationality' or decide what the Austro-Hungarians should have done. --Dannyno 10:42, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationality

message: As an interesting note, when Dawkins appeared on The Hour, the biography they showed in the introduction consisted of his birthday and "was satirized on South Park".  Reinistalk 10:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please can we let this go? It's getting old. A South Park appearance is simply not notable. Period. Mikker (...) 22:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Hour

message: In his 'The Selfish Gene: 30 years on' speech, Dawkins says that he would like to change the title of 'The Selfish Gene' to something else, because of the misunderstanding that it brought about (people thinking that there is an actual selfish gene that makes everyone selfish etc.).  He came up with ideas like, The Cooperative Gene and The Altruistic Vehicle.  
I have recently thought up another idea.  How about The Selfish Replicator ?  This (1) avoids the misunderstanding that the original title brought about, (2) emphasizes one of the important ideas in the book - the gene is a replicator, as are memes, and (3) it is very similar to the original title.  What do you think? Mr.P (the Zapffe enthusiast) 09:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: E-mail that to Dawkins if you want. Your ideas/original research are not relevant to an encyclopaedia.--Svetovid 14:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dawkins' talk of changing the title of 'The Selfish Gene' 

message: Would it be an improvement to create a :Category:Richard Dawkins? I note that there is a :Category:Books by Richard Dawkins, but this is rather restrictive and there are other articles directly related to him that are not in any such category. Richard001 03:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems there was and it was deleted twice on the basis of too few articles. ornis (t) 03:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How many articles does one need, exactly? If there is a category for his books, how could a larger category be deleted anyway? Richard001 04:10, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Haven't a clue. The debate for the last deletion is here. At that time there was only two articles and the sub cat for his books, so maybe there might be case for one now. ornis (t) 04:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

text:  Hmm... I didn't realize there was such an anti-eponymous category feeling. I created :Category:Daniel Dennett myself recently. Perhaps the books category should be expanded to :Category:Works by Richard Dawkins to include his essays and non-print works? Richard001 04:17, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Category

message: Here is another argument for the “nay” side of the “should we/should we not include Dawkins’ appearance in South Park on his Wiki page” debate.  In reading Dawkins’ comments about the show - with him saying that as far as he could see, it didn’t have a serious point to make - I now believe that Richard only saw the first episode of the two-episode storyline he was featured in.  
The main thing he describes in his response – being buggered by Mrs. Garrison – only happens in the first episode (apart from seeing it briefly in the recap at the start of episode two).  Plus, he doesn’t mention the atheist otters and the other two groups of atheists that have an “atheist war” in the second episode, “Science Damn It!”.  This is where South Park makes its point about Dawkins.  So maybe we should leave Dawkins’ South Park appearance out of the Wiki article.  What do you think? Mr.P (the Zapffe enthusiast) 21:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been discussed ad nauseam, for example, a few lines above. You are mainly stating your opinion, which counts as original research, by the way.--Svetovid 15:19, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did Dawkins only see the first part of his South Park appearance?  

message: The article says that Dawkins moved to England at the age of "eight". In 2003, he said that
he left Kenya at the age of "two". It is not clear where he was for six years.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.223.218 (talk) 12:53, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ages