Talk:Attack on Pearl Harbor/Archive 5

message: This is mistaken: 
:"notably by General John DeWitt, commanding Coast Defense on the Pacific Coast, apparently because of personal bias."
Heaven help me for citing this source, but Michelle Malkin, In Defense of Internment (DC: Regency, 2004), says DeWitt was used as a cover for Ultra.  Trekphiler 11:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Malkin is mistaken. No one at DeWitt's level in the US was authorized for Ultra. In fact, most British commanders weren't. The British set up a very involved system for disseminating Ultra information without letting the users learn anything about Ultra's nature. ww 02:34, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I do know that. What she said, as I understand, is he was a cover for it, not that he knew about it (might try reading more carefully): his claims were used to hide the fact Ultra had provided information about real spies (as it had, if Malkin is to be believed). Also, senior commanders cleared for Ultra usually said something like, "reliable info" or "source believed to be reliable" in ref Ultra, to hide its origin. See Winterbotham, Ultra Secret; Lewin, American Magic et al.; Kahn, Codebreakers; & Layton (I Was There?).  Trekphiler 23:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry about this, just noticed your cmnt. Recall that Ultra was UK's most closely guarded secret, that it was disclosed to the US (after Dec 41) only very reluctantly, and over a considerable time, and that in the summer/fall of 41 the US was not at war with Hitler, UK chief preoccupation. Ultra data is unlikley on its face to have been available to the US or to Coastal Defense, whether being used as a cover or otherwise. In any case, there seem not to have been much to disclose from Ultra as (IIRC) the Abwehr variant of Enigma wasn't being generally read in the period. and there appear to have only been the Kuhn family as Abwehr agents in Hawaii. Ultra information on Japanese agents anywhere has never been established (Malkin to the contrary) and seems unlikely in the extreme. ww 19:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No prob, I just saw your reply(s...). My bad. I'm using Ultra & MAGIC interchangably. Malkin suggests it was in PURPLE & reproduces documents on Japanese spies. Her argument's flimsy on most points, but she makes a case for DeWitt being a cover (or an excuse). BTW, I'm unaware of him being particularly bigoted, despite what the article says (& Malkin doesn't mention it, IIRC). Can anybody confirm?  Trekphiler 15:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tell me, ww, why'd you pull the ref to Ultra? OK, Malkin's an idiot, but she reproduced intercepts suggesting DeWitt was a face. Put in a better source saying otherwise. Please. Don't leave me relying on Malkin.  Trekphiler 02:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Executive Order 9066

message: Kido Butai had orders to attack if they encountered enemy ships? Prove it. Prange et al. in Pearl Harbor Papers say they had orders to turn back.  Trekphiler 01:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don't shoot, I'm only the piano player 

message: I deleted this:
:"Rev. E. Stanley Jones an American was in Tokyo where he had negotiated a treaty with the Japanese. This was  radioed in the form of a cypher document to The Japanese Embassy in Washington on Saturday Night but only the Ambassador himself could decode it. The Ambassador however had taken the weekend off to play Golf, so the message was not decoded till after the attack which took place on the morning of Sunday December 7th."
It's fiction. Jones had no authority to "negotiate a treaty with the Japanese." Moreover, he was never taken seriously, AFAIK. That he became involved at all is a reflection how desperate FDR was to keep the peace in the Pacific (contrary to what Stinnett & his conspiracy cabal would have you believe). It might be nice if people actually had a clue before adding this junk.  Trekphiler 14:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pay attention. It's got nothing to do with how badly worded it is. If it was, there'd be a lot more "junk" on WP. It's about being factually inaccurate.  Trekphiler 04:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  My Name is [[Mario Girotti|Kurasawa Akira]]