Talk:American Paint Horse

message: Please note that this page is not a soapbox or forum, it is for discussing changes to this article. Tanyia 20:11, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

message: For those who care, what is your take on the animal pictured below?  I'd like to put this photo into the proper wikipedia article, but I can't decide if this fellow is an overo or a sabino.  In favor of overo is horizontal spotting, bald face, dark legs and tail--but his white isn't irregularly edged, and there's not a lot of it.  In favor of Sabino are rounded belly spots, white on gaskins and he is somewhat roaned out.  Those who know, what's your assessment?  
I left my opinion on the Sabino Horse discussion page - but in a nutshell, I see more sabino traits on this horse than any other overo marking. Lmocr 20:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, this post was 8 years ago... The horse has both, actually.  Montanabw(talk) 18:29, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sabino or Overo? 

message: :The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the move request was: moved. The consensus is that "Horse" and "Pony" are actually part of the breed name and not simply tacked on for disambiguation. And there is no consensus that these articles should deviate from the current norm of capitalising every word in the name of a horse breed. The question of whether they should be fully decapitalised (e.g. to American paint horse) was only covered by a few editors, wasn't the original topic of this RM and is definitely better suited to a RfC anyway. There is one exception to all this however, Indian Half-Bred will be moved to Indian Half-bred as by the end of this RM even the nominator was OK with this and it also the one that seemed to cause most concern to many of the opposers. A couple of minor notes to finish:  there is absolutely no need to move articles while they are at RM and indeed I would strongly suggest you not do it again (see Wikipedia:Don't move articles at AfD#Corollary) – in addition, the RM admins are not complete morons and are perfectly able to understand that a result of no consensus would default to the long term status quo, especially when it is pointed out several times in the RM.  please don't move articles without an RM when you know that there is very likely to objections. It's all very well to cite WP:BOLD, but the the RM page is quite clear that you should only do so "If you have no reason to expect a dispute concerning a move". Jenks24 (talk) 15:12, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I certainly think that moving Dalmatian (dog) to Dalmatian dog is not a good idea, as I as it is now it  Dalmatian dog could refer to any dog that is in Dalmatia, or born there, no matter what breed. Hafspajen (talk) And it is 1 user doing this, Sphilbrick. Without discussion. 12:36, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with you that lower case should be used. Coreyemotela (talk) 11:28, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm tired of these ridiculous red herring and straw man arguments. NOWHERE have I argued that "all"  articles names "must" be followed by "horse"/"pony". I'm arguing for several exceptions. Where a RS for information is not an RS, yet no other RS exists, SMc, it is a trip through the looking glass.  Montanabw(talk) 04:59, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

text: I guess this doesn't make any sense to me. Some breed names include Horse or Pony some do not. We don't get to homogenize the breed name to suit Wikipedia. We need to note the definitive source for the breed name, probably the breed standard site and that is what we go with. Unless I misunderstand, you are trying to create some consistency on Wikipedia with horse breed names. That is not what we  have license to do. We use the source and this case there is for many horse breeds, a definitive source.(Littleolive oil (talk) 14:20, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: See this previous debate which relied on the same argument you are making and resolved to use lower case.  Reliable sources on facts about breed traits and history are not reliable sources on how WP should title articles and style them.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  21:57, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  That was a sad "debate" with a sad outcome, leaving many people unhappy ad some even leaving, - we don't need more of the kind, it's possibly the worst example you could find, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:48, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

text:  Can we not overwhelm the discussion with acres of talk page posts, please? There is no need to reply to every single post with the same information over and over again. You've made the points, others have made their points, belaboring the points isn't helpful to other readers who might want to weigh in. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:50, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It's entirely normal for RMs and RfCs to have "Discussion" sections below the !voting for longer material; the entire point is to keep the longer material out of the !votes.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  21:57, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

text: Agreed.  I've collapsed these long sections, which are red herrings that take us off track.  This discussion should focus on what's here, the point I think that SMcCandlish is promoting (correct me if I'm wrong), is basically that SMcCandlish wants a hard and fast rule that "horse" or "pony" must always be lower case, regardless of any other rule, no matter what, and possibly that sentence case should be used for absolutely every single animal breed articles on Wikipedia, regardless of any other rule or tradition.  If that's the argument, I oppose it. (If it's not, then are there some exceptions?)  Our article titles already demonstrate that we mostly go along with sentence case, but that there are a few exceptions. Montanabw(talk) 16:50, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't get to repeat your argument while preventing me from allegedly repeating my argument (I actually presented four different arguments all of which can be separately addressed; if you and the rest of the equine project would rather hide them than address them, that looks a lot like conceding).  I've uncollapsed the discussion points. No one will discuss them if they're hidden, and at least one other editor has been trying, so you're censoring others besides me.  The article titles do  demonstrate that the horse articles are mostly following sentence case; the list you're trying to hide proves that this is far from the case, and the entire category is a confused mess.  Finally, I never said there could be no exceptions; I'm arguing that you're not making any kind of clear case that these are exceptions.  If you are convinced that few if any of the longer list of articles would be effected by the outcome of this debate, then let's move all of them to lower-case "horse" and "pony" right now.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  21:57, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: SMc, I'm arguing for the exceptions here, to the ones you moved.  The rest of this discussion needs to move to WikiProject Equine. Montanabw(talk) 04:59, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  You seem not to understand that you have to wait for the discussion to be closed, and until the discussion is closed, article names have to be the way they were before it started. You should never have moved without a discussion. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:44, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

text: Sooo, indeed. Well. Bolonese...dog, Armant dog...  Hm, same editor, no consensus. And one more, Akbash dog Akita dog, Barbet dog, Billy dog????  this sounds plain silly - and no consensus just somebody acting. The breed is called Akita, not Akita dog, Bolonese, not Bolonese dog, Akbash and not Akbash dog... This is just silly. Billy dog, right... I certainly didn't see any discussion about re-naming. This will be a matter for Dog task forces, asap. You should never have moved without a discussion. Hafspajen (talk) 13:37, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

text: * Sigh. Also  cattles, and pigs are mass-moved. Hafspajen (talk) 16:44, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Cats, ducks, turkeys, pigeons and goats too. The full list is here. Some of those moves are good and for valid reasons; some are not. In my opinion, not one of them should have been made without discussion. I'd suggest notifying the other various WikiProjects of this discussion as a first step to sorting this out (Agriculture, Birds, Cats, Dogs, which others?). Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:40, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

text: Things are getting out of hands. AND, there is no such thing as Billy dog. Is that a dog called Billy or Bill what? Just look at the article, the BREED is called Billy.  Hafspajen (talk) 20:07, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: *Gosh, this is a real nightmare, this list. Like move Przewalski's Horse to Przewalski's horse... What Przewalski's horse?? His own horse he use to ride, Lucky, Cocoa, Duke or Misty or what?  Przewalski's Horse is CALLED Przewalski's Horse. Man, what a mess. Hafspajen (talk) 20:50, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

text: *Przewalski's Horse to Przewalski's horse? It is hardly appropiate. We will se what we will do with the others - Justlettersandnumbers is QUITE right, notifying the other various WikiProjects of this discussion as a first step to sorting this out ... I think that was a very good suggestion. Hafspajen (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: *Hafspajen, one crisis at a time please. Title case versus sentence case capitalization of breed names is way bigger than the issue here; I am merely trying to preserve a few names that unambiguously (I thought) need title case.    Montanabw(talk) 22:04, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

text: * Yes. You are a horse editor. I am a member of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Dogs/Dog breeds task force. This is crisis enought for me. Hafspajen (talk) 23:50, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Understand your reluctance. However, McCandlish moved something like 400 articles. Many more than those listed above were mistaken moves for exactly the same reason. I've already mentioned Esperia Pony (not currently at that title) above, and I'm sure there are many others; and I agree with  that Przewalski's Horse falls into the same category - you can't talk about a "Przewalski's", so the word "Horse" is part of the name, exactly as argued for the APH. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:48, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't disagree, it's just that the problem is SMC is taking the opposite extreme, is absolutely vicious to anyone who disagrees with him (in spite of an Arbcom decision telling him not to) and has apparently already destroyed the birds project, running off multiple editors. Until the broader issue of Sentence case capitalization in article titles versus Title Case capitalization is dealt with wiki-wide, (as well as the fate of tendentious bullies) this issue will never go away.  I'm just trying to keep my foot wedged in the door to keep it from being slammed shut completely (ouch!).  It's going to take an army to deal with the Title Case capitalization issue across all the animal articles and I for one cannot do it alone. And Hafspajen's issue is actually parenthetical disambiguation versus natural disambiguation and that isn't the issue on this page. Montanabw(talk) 18:20, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

text: Well, too late now. Anyway, move that issue too Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dogs. And thanks for all good advices, everybody who gave some. Very useful. Hafspajen (talk) 18:56, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
===Related RM===
I started Talk:Przewalski's_horse#Requested_move, since "horse" is also part of that breed name. There is a very small percentage of horse breeds with "horse" in the name, there should be only a few breeds left to move. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:43, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

text: That's a species not a breed. Not even relevant.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  07:06, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's discuss that over there, not over here.  Montanabw(talk) 19:42, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That's right. My mistake. --Enric Naval (talk) 08:38, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested moves 

message: 1.  The capitalization proposed here is inconsistent with other categories and even other horse articles.  I have to observe that even before I began doing some consistency cleanup in these categories, virtually every single domestic animal article name that contained the species name after the breed name did so in lower case (e.g. Nigora goat, etc.) Virtually all of the rest either incorrectly included a parenthetical disambiguator (e.g. Siamese (cat)), and these have mostly been moved without incident (e.g. to Siamese cat per WP:AT policy to prefer natural disambiguation over parenthetical).  Almost no articles had the name of the kind of organism capitalized as some people at the horse project want to do with some but not all of the horse/pony/donkey articles, for no apparent reason on that that they're adjectival breed names. But almost all breed names are, and we're just not doing this to their article names. The horse project haven't made any case for why these names are somehow different from Nigora goat and Siamese cat.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  10:33, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I certainly think that moving Dalmatian (dog) to Dalmatian dog is not a good idea, as I as it is now it  Dalmatian dog could refer to any dog that is in Dalmatia, or born there, no matter what breed. Hafspajen (talk) And it is 1 user doing this, Sphilbrick. Without discussion. 12:36, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with you that lower case should be used. Coreyemotela (talk) 11:28, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm tired of these ridiculous red herring and straw man arguments. NOWHERE have I argued that "all"  articles names "must" be followed by "horse"/"pony". I'm arguing for several exceptions. Where a RS for information is not an RS, yet no other RS exists, SMc, it is a trip through the looking glass.  Montanabw(talk) 04:59, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: I started Talk:Przewalski's_horse#Requested_move, since "horse" is also part of that breed name. There is a very small percentage of horse breeds with "horse" in the name, there should be only a few breeds left to move. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:43, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a species not a breed. Not even relevant.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  07:06, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's discuss that over there, not over here.  Montanabw(talk) 19:42, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That's right. My mistake. --Enric Naval (talk) 08:38, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Related RM

message: The term painted pony is very common.  While it generally refers to American Paint Horse, it has additional connotations.  Should there be a redirect: Painted pony → American Paint Horse ?  --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:150C:B1E3:96E3:3390 (talk) 16:34, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Painted pony" 

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