Talk:Pan-Slavism

message: Dear wikipedists, I ask Your community for independent and collaborative review of my amendments made today from IP 193.84.36.110 (I am not a wikipedist), which are permanently removed by FkpCascais, who alleged me for the anti-Russian sentiment. My real name is assoc. prof. Vojtěch Merunka, Ph.D. (vmerunka@gmail.com) I have many professional contacts to all Slavic countries (also in Russia and Serbia, dear FkpCascais :-) ) and I hope my adding (regardless it was strong) is important and based on proven sources. I believe, that Wikipedia respects the position of neutrality and does not serve in any propaganda, which tries removes discomfortable information in order to make "the reality better".   
This is my text: 
Since the Congress in Prague in 1848, there is an on-going conflict between the concept of panslavism in Russia and in small European nations speaking Slavic languages. Russian Empire tried to misuse Slavism as a tool for spreading its power and governance (autocracy and Orthodox Church). The other Slavic nations refused to the ethnic and political merger with the Russia, but wanted to have a strong ally in their own independent cultural and political development (see Austro-Slavism). That some politicians in Russia do not understand till today, because speak about betrayal of Slavic idea, slavish thinking, and fascism. 
		
Political panslavism lasts from 60s of the 19th century after the lost Crimean War, when the Russian elite, who previously had uncritically admired and imitated Western civilisation, suddenly turned 180 degrees and started to hate and blame the West for Russia's military setbacks. It is well described in the propagandistic book of Nikolay Danilevsky: Russia and Europe[ http://www.amazon.com/Russia-Europe-Political-Relations-Germanic-Roman/dp/0893574007 Danilevsky, Russia and Europe: The Slavic World's Political and Cultural Relations with the Germanic-Roman West, ], where it is rendered the decadent West in opposition to the God's blessed Russian civilization. Today, this 150 years old propaganda continues extended by antisemitism. Panslavism is popular in the large immigration from the former USSR to Slavic countries of the European Union. It expresses fierce populism, nostalgia for the Soviet era, and strong anti-Western sentiments.Report about the XII. Pan-slavic congress in Moscow, May 2015 (in Russian)Slavic Unity. Special issue of the news "Russky vestnik" Nr 16-17 (930-931), texts from the XII. Pan-slavic congress in Moscow, May 2015 (in Russian)
 I have more sources. For example other documents from the XII. Pan-slavic congress in Moscow, May 2015 and books by the current pan-slavic president Oleg Platonov, see his books at http://www.labirint.ru/authors/35471/  
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:1028:8D1E:F5DE:85B7:6B64:678C:901 (talk) 12:07, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: introduction

message: Poland never was very enthusiastic about its Slavic roots, anyway, and this attitude regularily found its expressions, as well in the ideology of sarmatism, as in the hostilities towards the culture of its Slavic neighbours like Ukrainians oder Belarusians.
This is strange - it's the first time I heard that Poland was 'not very enthusiastic' about it's Slavic origins. Where had the Poles denied they are Slavs? And how do you measure enthusiasm? Of course, unlike Russians, Poles never tried to unite ALL Slavs under their guidance, so I guess they indeed were less enthusiastic then Russian Empire of the Soviet Union. Second, how is sarmatism an expression of some 'anti-Slavism', and how again this can be used to explain Polish hostility towards Ruthenians (but not Lithuanians or themselves, for example?). This entire sentence makes little sense and unless proper academic references are provided, it should be deleted as unverifiable POV.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:00, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe Voyevoda's sentence is just a reaction to Molobo's severe trolling. It was Molobo who denied any connection of the Poles to the Slavs and routinely changed "Slavic languages" to "Eastern and South Slavic languages", so as not to include Polish into the category. By the way, Piotrus, I hope you do not follow Molobo's way when you call this typical and quite harmless content dispute "vandalism" on the Polish notice-board. If you do, please take care. Trolling is strongly frowned upon. --Ghirla -трёп- 07:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Two wrongs don't make a right. And note that the notice at PWNB notes 'Articles needing attention' and sais nothing about vandalism. Would you dispute that this article needs attention? Not that Voyevoda additions are any better then worst of Molobo's, and I think you called his actions with the 'v' word quite often.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edit summary lists it as an "article vandalised". Please don't think we are blind. --Ghirla -трёп- 05:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Ghirla, perhaps you should check your eyes. Or are you confusing me with Voyevoda? If so, I'd think we are both offended :> --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Of course sarmatism was an expression of insufficient identification of Poles with their Slavic derivation. What else should have caused this feverish seeking for other roots? The Polish hostility towards Ruthenians showed itself in the discrimination of their belief, language and traditions. Ukrainians and Belarusians were called "bydlo" and were often forced to change the street side, when a Pole came along. All that is not being told in Poland so the Poles sincerely wonder, why things like Volhynia 1944 occured. Voyevoda 08:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: History by Voyevoda is fascinating, but care to provide any references backing your POV?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: In fact, Polish nationalists massacred about 2 million Ukrainians during 1918 und 1920, with support from France and England, of course. Main target was to avert an independent Ukrainian nation, eliminating Ukrainian population with a focus on "Intelligenzia", i.e. preferably killing educated people and than killing usual people as "appropriate" and as in reach. This shows that Polish nationalism and Polish racism might be very enthusiastic about Panslavism, but only under total Polish domination, rule or even better, total military command. Additional problem is religious: Poland always claims to be ultra-catholic, while most slavic people are orthodox. Therefore the killing of orthodox priest has been an important task in the eyes of Polish nationalists. Nevertheless, Polish elite always claimed the Polish nation to be the best of all slavic nations. Fun fact: Nobody is able to define what "slavic" truely might be, apart from similarities in slavic langugages. This is not a surprise when you look at the timeline. In fact a small group of "slavic" invaders started dominating gallo-illyric population not earlier than 6th to 8th century. "Slavisation" of Europe is relatively young and, apart from Polish or Russian made massacres, was rather based on making people share invaders' langugage than killing the original inhabitants of Central Europe. 88.66.67.29 (talk) 08:41, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation needed for suspicious information 

message: I would like to discuss the use of this word. I changed it to "countries with slavic national languages", which I think is much more precise. Somebody changed it back using the argument "languages have nothing [!] to do with this, slavic origin means founded and mostly inhabited by Slavic peoples".
Now, in my opinion the definion of "Slavic people" is "people speaking a Slavic language" and we are back at languages, which justifies the phrase I introduced. Any counter-argument? Nahabedere 09:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not so much a counter though the term "origins" is better. It's true that language is the only thing which unites Slavic people but then it's the only thing that unites anyone anywhere at all, unless they are united by a surviving phenomenon, such as a religion (maybe the Jews are a good example, original Hebrew fell into disuse centuries before the birth of Christ but diasporans all over the world maintained their faith). From an individual viewpoint, it is possible to say you are Czech, or Russian etc. without knowing a single word of the language: supposing a Czech couple move to the USA and raise their two children speaking to them entirely in English; this does actually happen, and the children may still feel Czech, or Czech-American, but without the language to pass down, it is unlikely that this practice will survive three generations (of Czechs only marrying other Czechs who have lost their language). Meanwhile, looking at it from the angle of an entire group of people, let us take the Rumelians of Bulgaria, united since the creation of the modern Bulgarian republic. Supposing the Rumelians claimed that they were NOT Slavic (which they don't) but descended from a group of people to occupy the Balkans some centuries earlier, called, the Rumelians, then the only way that they would have converted language to the point that their original language has been erased would be for some Slavic presence among them. Now, as there is no region today in the Slavic language countries where the majority claim to be non-Slavic and a small group of Slavs (all be it 2%) can claim to have continued their Slavic identity, it is clear that the people mixed and one group has assimilated the other! If the Slavs were originally a smaller group and now the communal name for the people is the same as that of the larger group (ie. Rumelians - bearing in mind this is only an example), one might be forgiven for assuming that the 2% Slavs were dissimilated by the 98% Rumelians, but given that it was the Rumelians who abandoned their languages, it is fairer to say that they became Slavic. So, wherever there is a Slavic language community, be it the whole of Slovakia, or the pockets of Sorbs in Germany, or the Krashovans of Romania, you can be sure that there is a line of descent in the Slavs of the first millennium AD even if this trace is thin. --Evlekis 13:06, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are rather describing the dark sides of an ideology included in "Pan-Slavism": Whereever people live, that have any origin claimed to be "Slavic" or who's ancestors had spoken the language of Orthodox mission in Eastern Europe, Pan-Slavism declares this piece of land to be "truely Slavic soil". This includes areas that became "truely Slavic soil" due to Russian settlement policy, please take a look at the Baltics. Massive Russian domination over a non-Slavic population, step by step pushed into the role of a "weird" minority under "good Slavic rule". Original population had been killed, deported or suppressed, and forced to speak Russian.  According to Russia, the Baltics therefore still are "Slavic soil". However, original population in the Baltics never accepted "Russification" of their countries, while Pan-Slavistic ideologists still wish to eliminate this original population by various means. As Russia had been the most successfull continental colonial power in Europe, an excessive "slavification" had always been one of the major goals of Russian nationalism and imperialism. In fact, this can been seen and checked in detail almost everywhere in Eastern Europe, as it holds true for a lot of regions that became overrun, looted and annexed. By the way, there is a striking example in very modern times: Take a look at the map and see what has happended to former Prussia, especially to Kaliningrad region. Population had been killed or deported, Russian settlement policy has been implemented for decades, and surprise, surprise, this region is "Slavic soil of mother Russia" now. Only nation being completely opposed to this is Poland, because they have an anti-Russian conception of Pan-Slavism: A Pan-Slavism under strict Polish domination and rule. Related racial and colonial aspects to be included... 88.66.67.29 (talk) 09:40, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  countries with slavic origins 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.princeton.edu/~gradconf/index_files/papers/Babiracki.pdf
** In Pan-Slavism on Sun Jul 16 21:32:37 2006, 404 Not Found
** In Pan-Slavism on Mon Jul 17 17:57:38 2006, 404 Not Found
** In Pan-Slavism on Thu Jul 27 01:26:58 2006, 404 Not Found
----maru   (talk)  contribs 05:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

message: It should also be emphasized that Pan-Slavism also had a reactionary nature, especially in the Carpathian Basin where (especially Slovak Pan-Slavists like Stúr or Hurban-Vajansky) they wanted to subjugate the whole area to Czarist Russia and in support of the Habsburg monarchy, they fought against Kossuth's freedom fighters in 1848-49.Árpád 07:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Leaders ofSeptember uprising - Stur, Hurban and Hodza wanted from Habsburg court indepndent Slovak duchy- It was their official proposal. Stur idea of all Slavic states under Czarist Russia was motivate by that that Russia was in that time only independent Slavic country - that´s all. Don´t manipulate with informations like these.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.216.154.233 (talk) 08:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reactionary nature 

message: How this is connected to pan-slavic ideas? Probably it is Russification policy that triggered the protests?--Dojarca 20:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pan-Slavism in the grand duchy of Finland 

message: Saying basically that Poles were never interested in pan-Slavism and all saw it as an agent of Russian imperialism is a bit much. It was never a widespread, popular movement, but it had significant support among some segments of the academic and political elite in the 19th century, and was debated fairly stridently. For the pro-pan-slavism side, I'm thinking of people like Ignacy Rakowiecki, Zorian Dołęga-Chodakowski, Henryk Rzewski, Michal Grabowski, Waclaw Maciejowski, and so on. --Delirium (talk) 07:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish section is a bit oversimplified 

message: Venice ceased to exist as a republic in 1797, Italy was about to form. So there is something wrong with the introduction. --2.245.148.227 (talk) 22:28, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Venice had been the predominant power in Northern Italy and surounding shores including Slovenia and Croatia over centuries. The new nation, modern Italy, simply continued what Venice had done before. 88.66.67.29 (talk) 09:18, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Venice 

message: It is currently being proposed that Category:Slavic countries and territories be deleted. This article is related to that category. The relevant discussion is located at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 January 8#Countries and territories by language family. The deletion discussion would benefit from input from editors with a knowledge of and interest in Pan-Slavism. Krakkos (talk) 11:59, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed deletion of [[:Category:Slavic countries and territories|Category:Slavic countries and territories]] 

message: In the section "Pan-Slavism in Russia" it uses the word "regime" instead of "government" in order to describe the current governing body of the Russian Federation. I think that the word "government" would be a more accurate and less biased word to use in this situation and that "regime" has a emotional bias and in this case it would probably also used with political motivations 2600:1007:A105:48E4:8F03:D4D3:D36B:D0C7 (talk) 04:35, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Regime vs Government as Word Choice 

message: This part of the article seems to be biased, as there are some weird details, presented without sound sources. In particular, there is no explanation why a Habsburg, or anyone else, should be in favor of a Serbian prince to be ruler of Slovakia. There should be more facts and less "strong believes" in the good sake of pan-slavic nationalism. What is a Serbian aristocrate good for in Slovakia and maybe even the Czech lands? What is the plot? Will he convert to catholizism to win the hearts of Slovaks, or even become a crypto-protestant to please (anti-Habsburg) Czech elite? What about the Polish minority in Austria-Hungary? All of this doesn't make any sense. 88.66.67.29 (talk) 09:03, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Pan-Slavism in the Czech lands and Slovakia"