Talk:Precognition

message: The belief section stating that belief in precognition is "widespread" is the viewpoint of non-independent parapsychology sources. The statistics were lifted from primary sourced arguments made in various pro-precognition parapsychology papers claiming a majority of people believe they've had a precognitive experience, and presented without context. I've replaced it with what can be sourced to independent sources . If independent secondary sources have found the parapsychology stats notable, we can certainly reinstate them with appropriate "what parapsychologists believe" framing. - LuckyLouie (talk) 00:49, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The response to JB Priestley's TV appeal, discussed later in the article, evidences that many people do believe in precognition and is verifiable. I have edited the belief section accordingly. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 15:56, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Belief section 

message: Someone added 2 citations needed. The first thing is very basic and well known. For the second, I lifted the wording from retrocausality in physics There are about 20 citations for that there. It doesn't seem sensible copying them without repeating the article content. And it doesn't seem sensibe copying the article content either. People just have to go to retrocausality in physics  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.124.126.171 (talk) 14:56, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry but Wikipedia doesn't work that way. References are needed and you can't reference another Wikipedia article, since we don't consider Wikipedia a reliable source. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 15:14, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

text: Thank you. It looks like a lot though, do all of those sources say that? Maybe you added too many. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 16:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I removed those sources because 1. None of them mention precognition so it is original research and 2. It was an extreme fringe position with undue weight. Robert the Magician (talk) 22:19, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation Needed on my changes to Physics section 

message: I've personally had precognitive dreams on at least one occasion which I vividly remember, but describing it is only precognitive in hindsight. That is to say, the contents of the dream weren't readily worth noting until the event had taken place, at which point I realized that I had specifically seen the waking life event previously in a dream. There truly aren't real prophecies in the waking life short of self fulfilling prophecies designed against simpler people (reinforcing the immense damage to all causality incurred by the simple act of lying), but the prophetic dreams are more alike a confirmation of an event rather than literally recording an event before it occurs, which could possibly be later confirmed once the event had come to pass.  I know what Deja Vu is, but that is more a general and vague "feeling", whereas a prophetic dream can be quite literally a 1:1 visual representation that can be recalled with identical accuracy. It's not about jerking off ones ego either. I am not a prophetic dreamer, i just happened to have a single vividly memorable dream of hundreds of equally memorable dreams which happened to have a specific, unique visual design within it which later became a real invention within the waking world. What's more, to further dissuade any problem thinking, there is no true motive of gain to claim having seen something in hindsight. This isn't about projecting a psychic ego. It's about freeing your own mind and realizing belief only comes to those who believe, while proof paradoxically proves nothing. 24.205.110.111 (talk) 15:05, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have any suggestions with references to improve the article?  Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:14, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

text: I also do not think that precognitive dreams defy causality. I believe that prophetic dreams only show a possible future, not a necessary one. If the course of events is changed enough, the result too can be changed. So a precognitive dream means, that you are tuned to a hidden cause and see a likely effect. So it is perfectly in accordance with causality. It is still difficult to rationally explain, how comes one be tuned to the hidden cause, though.  So precognition can be still looked at critically, but I think that the argument that it violates causality is a bad one. Some sources with similar thoughts can be probably found, but here it's more like my personal reflections which could count as original research, so I didn't want to modify the page, but offer this idea for discussion. 94.230.146.247 (talk) 13:08, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assumptions that precognitive dreams would defy causality? 

message: As several have mentioned before, this article reads as seriously out of date scientifically for it's lack of reference to retrocausality as proposed by QM through the delayed choice quantum eraser experiment analysis. (True temporal nonlinearity would of course render the concept of precognition moot, but it would address the phenomena as recorded throughout history.)
This article also reads like someone's baby, and I fully expect them to come roaring out of their cave at the scent of an edit.
So, I propose the baby is allowed to remain intact, with simply an added section which acknowledges contemporary scientific experiments, results, and discussion. I'll just leave this here for a bit before attempting an edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Altairah (talk • contribs) 08:13, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem here is to find a suitable source for such treatment. The prevailing view is that QM does not enable information to be transferred via such phenomena. To suggest here that any given quantum phenomenon does in fact support the precognition hypothesis would be original research on our part - unless we can find a reliable scientific source which makes that claim. The claim doesn't have to be true, but its existence does need to be verifiably significant, i.e. more than just a sensationalist remark by some journalist. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:00, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

text: Well, here we are seven years after the creation of this discussion. In that time, quantum retrocausality has continued to gain scientific traction; see for example Adam Becker; "Blast from the Future", New Scientist, 17 February 2018, pp.28-31 (except, this online version has a slightly different title). While mainstream science has done little if anything to apply it to psychic phenomena such as precognition, fringe writers such as Eric Wargo (Time Loops, Anomalist, 2018) have increasingly tried to fill that gap. There is now a verifiable body of literature on the implications of retrocausality for precognition, but unlike Becker's article it is not mainstream science. How should Wikipedia address this? My working assumption is that we should, as a responsible encyclopedia, acknowledge the notability of the literature as a social phenomenon, while maintaining a sceptical stance on its scientific truth. That's a tightrope I have sadly little time to walk. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 08:39, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

text: Dare I suggest that the recent edit-and-revert illustrates the difficulty of tightrope-walking. A book such as Wargo's can not really be mentioned in the article, except insofar as it might be usefully discussed in other reliable sources. Dunne's book is one of very few which pass that test. JB Priestley's Man and Time might be another, if one needed support for something he discusses. Also, such mention would most likely fall into the cultural section rather than anything to do with arguments of fact. Does Rovelli The Order of Time (per the above "useful" link) mention precognition? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 21:57, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

text: Neither in the 1990s nor anytime else has there been a scientific consensus that n people can do this with n > 0. --Hob Gadling (talk) 17:58, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Nevertheless there is something of a resurgence of it in popular literature and more serious literary studies these days: I can cite you forty or so references to Dunne alone in the last 10 years, some in mainstream publications (some of those are already cited here). It would be useful to capture a little more of that, though obviously in a wider context than Dunne. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:07, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Mainstream of what? Literary studies? How is that relevant? --Hob Gadling (talk) 19:42, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Checkout the subsection on Literary reference, especially the cites. If that doesn't help answer your question, then I can't help you either. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 20:12, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: That is the fluff-and-fantasy section. It says nothing about whether , just about how the concept is treated in fiction. --Hob Gadling (talk) 21:40, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Well spotted, dear boy. You asked about the literary aspect so I answered about the literary aspect. Now, had you asked about the scientific (or otherwise) aspect, might I just conceivably have answered about that? You appear to be trying to imagine up enemies from within your own team, may I recommend that you focus instead on improving the article (which I see you have done something about, thank you). Meanwhile, I think we can be done with this absurd conversation. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:52, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, maybe you should not have changed the subject from  and later  to something else without clearly saying so, but while making it sound like a contradiction ("Nevertheless"). Talking about "mainstream publications" is misleading when the subject of the article is precognition and not precognition in fiction. --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:46, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed edit:

message: I propose the following edits to take out some of the bias and to enhance readability.
I would like to argue for "Prescience" instead of "Precognition" as a title for this article. The ability concerns the knowing/ sensing/ perceiving of future (possible) events, not the ability to have thoughts about future (possible) events. The definition of cognition by Meriam-Webster: "conscious mental activities : the activities of thinking, understanding, learning, and remembering". None of the experiments describe a counscious mental activity - all describe a mode of perception.
I would like to propose that the lines "As with other forms of extrasensory perception, there is no evidence that precognition is a real ability possessed by anyone.[5][6][7][8] However it still appears within movies, books, and discussion within the parapsychology community, with claimed precognition of earthquakes sometimes covered by the newsmedia.[9]"  are removed. It isn't established that prescience or precognition is an extrasensory perception - in fact: a few of the experiments mentioned in this article argue that it is an inate sense. Nor is it established what the "other forms" are and how they relate to prescience. That it appears in art, media and discussion is not related to its existence nor to its mechanisms.
I would like to propose that the lines: "Scientific investigation of extrasensory perception is complicated by the definition which implies that the phenomena go against established principles of science.[10] Specifically, precognition would violate the principle that an effect cannot occur before its cause.[10] There are established biases affecting human memory and judgment of probability that sometimes create convincing but false impressions of precognition.[11]" are removed. Reference [10] does not support the claims. Neither does the phenomena of prescience (if indeed it exists) need to conform to pre-established ideas of how time works. An article on time can establish such things claims. The second line is misplaced and would be better placed in the 'experiments' section, amongst other experiments that support or negate the hypothesis of the existence of prescience. 
Also, I would like to propose that the subtitle of '"Feeling the Future" controversy' is changed to '"Feeling the Future" experiments', to eliminate the bias from this subtitle. 
I would like to propose that the meta-analysis of 90 experiments is included in the "Feeling the Future" section: http://w.dbem.ws/FF%20Meta-analysis%206.2.pdf  (2014). 
I would like to propose that the section on "Scientific reception" is removed. The conclusions of experiments and/or responses to experiments can be included in the   "Experiments" section to enhance readability. 
The causality problem is interesting, but not relevant to this article. As I have said before, the phenomena of prescience doesn't have to explain how time works.
If the editors of the article feel that the article does necessitate an explanation of the way time works, then I agree with a previously proposed edit: please include the delayed choice quantum eraser experiments in this article as well.
I would like to propose that the Dunn experiments are placed in the Precognitive Dreams section. 
I would like to propose that the item "lists of topics characterized as pseudo-science" is removed from the "See also" section. The works that are cited in this article are scientific, not pseudoscientific. No topics should be labeled 'out of boundary' for science to investigate. Pseudoscience concerns methodology, not content.
It is my experience that an edit of this extent is better left to the original editors. I hope my advice has been helfpul!
AnneloesF (talk) 11:14, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree with the proposal to edit the subtitle of '"Feeling the Future" controversy' to '"Feeling the Future experiments", to eliminate the bias from this subtitle.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Philosi4 (talk • contribs) 20:45, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

text: On the article title, I do not think that dictionary hair-splitting is the way to go. For example my Collins dictionary defines precognition simply as "foreknowledge". The Google ngram stat counter shows "prescience" to be over twice as common as "precognition", with "prevision" also rivalling the latter. However all the books I have seen on the psi phenomenon refer to "precognition", I am not sure where the other words are more commonly used. I think we would need to find extensive use of "prescience" in the parapsychology literature before we could consider changing the article title. Meanwhile, I agree about the bias and I have tried to reduce it. I hope you agree that I have moved it in the right direction. 19:19, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: On Dunne, the article looks to me as if the sections respectively on experiments and on dreams were created on the assumption that the topics were separable. In the case of Dunne's dream experiments this separation is manifestly inappropriate. Rather than struggle to fit him in to what is there now, it might be better to review the structure of the article as a whole. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 02:30, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

text: On the other proposals, I do not think they stack up. Simply removing cited scientific criticism is unacceptable. There are plenty of sources for it, so if [10] is ill-chosen then substituting a citation tag would be the better change. The argument that innate is not extra-sensory misunderstands the meaning of extra-sensory. It merely implies a path outside of the known physical senses, and most ESP phenomena are claimed to be innate. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:13, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further proposed editing 

message: This article demonstrates a sad violation of WP:NPOV. Most chapters are written like an essay, with a prominent citation concluding the "nonsense" of the subject. Folks, it is not WP's task to divide the world into right and wrong, but to explain what _others_ (scientists, writers, media etc.) wrote about it. Think about rewriting the article, at least separating the subject from the criticism. --Edoe (talk) 22:14, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:ARBPS, for a start. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:42, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

text: WP:FRINGE specifically.- LuckyLouie (talk) 01:27, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fringe? When "37% of Americans surveyed believed in precognition" it seems like an interesting topic for the social sciences, including 'mainstream'. --Edoe (talk) 11:28, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a distinction between the cultural fringe and the scientific fringe. Although precognition is basically a cultural phenomenon and at 37% one can argue for mainstream, it nevertheless demands scientific explanation and at that level any claim beyond self-delusion is indisputably fringe. See for example the article on astrology. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:45, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  But the fact that 37% of a population believe in a fringe is not a fringe. Understand the difference? There are real facts in this article, but they are subdued under the mission to proove the 'believers' wrong. --Edoe (talk) 20:32, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

text: Frankly, at this point we can only agree on that precognition is not studied and mechanisms are not well understood. It seems something, that has to do with how brains are working and that mechanism might apply not only to humans, but other animals. The issue with that not many people notice that they can precognize is that not all people can remember what they have been dreaming. And for those who can - they also do not have a very reliable way to remember dreams, that works 100% all the time. At this point we are approaching technology, that would allow us to record dreams and what person sees in real-time and that is something that can be used to scientifically prove or disprove precognition. Claiming that precognition is pseudoscience or fringe requires proof regardless of outcome and weight of proof for any cases lies on claimant. 88.111.113.79 (talk) 12:01, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I fail to see what the opinion you utter here has to do with the goal of this page: the improvement of the article. This is not a forum. --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:20, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

text: I do think the present article is constructed badly. For example the article on astrology devotes a lot of space to its historical and cultural aspects, keeping scientific criticism out of the way for readability and then doing the criticism justice in its own section. Though nothing like as extensive, there is a reasonable amount of discussion of precognition in the wider literature to give it significant cultural and historical context. For example Priestley's findings are widely quoted/cited and deserve better coverage here. Significant discussions have also been published by respected authors such as C. D. Broad, G. N. M. Tyrrell and Brian Inglis and these should perhaps be expanded on. Also, as I said in a previous thread, the dream experiments of J. W. Dunne cut right across the current division into separate sections for experiments and dreaming. Might it be better to give a historical account of such discussions and the associated experiments, and then fire the critical guns at it all in a separate section? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:45, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, the mixture of subject and criticism is the problem here. --Edoe (talk) 20:35, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I have done some restructuring. I do not really like my subdivision of the history into arbitrary periods, but I can't think of a better way to do it. I am going to let the overall structure settle for a bit before I attempt much in the way of reorganising the criticisms, but please don't let that stop anybody else from doing so. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 20:26, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, the article has clearly gained in quality. Thus the 'essay' warning can be removed. --Edoe (talk) 12:37, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Bit more restructuring and rebalancing done, in the end some of the more detailed criticism does belong with the historical events it is criticising. I think the overall impression is acceptable now so I have removed the essay tag. Hope folks like it. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:09, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

text: Agreed, spot on. It definitely violates WP:NPOV. There's no fair and equitable discussion of Daryl Bem's research at all nor later meta-analyses and successful replications. Only mention of failed replications. Nhradek (talk) 20:18, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral point of view 

message: "Specifically, precognition appears to violate the principle that an effect cannot occur before its cause."
This needs reworking as it is unclear whether this valid in light of empirical evidence in quantum systems. Any cyberneticists around these days? This seems inconsistent with Gregory Bateson's thinking.
:See #Proposed edit: discussion above. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:47, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite? 

message: Even though Precognition can be considered bias it is not widely considered pseudoscience. There are vastly number of scientific articles trying to bring light into the subject, either demythifying it or trying to tie it together to any scientific theory. The critics against it are under two main grounds which are fairly tied to studies against Parapsychology, while the second one does not cite sources or surveys, that is not how science work guys. While there are more scientific evidences against precognition, there is no section which explains how it would be possible by either philosophical discussions or scientific discussions, the article simply points it toward parapsychology and done. Eduemoni↑talk↓ 13:26, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I have also added a maintenance tag that this article needs more source, while in the scientific grounds and claims, citing majority psychology studies. However, psychology is not science and it should not be used as sources in scientific experiments, since psychology evaluations, tests and studies tend to have a large human-error or lack of external control than rigorously scientific studies. Eduemoni↑talk↓ 13:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the tag, as it was used inappropriately. With over fifty inline citations and half the bibliography being pro-precognition, your thesis is not wholly tenable. Also, there are other templates for article-wide tagging. I agree the article needs more scientific discussion, but it needs it at the highest level of scientific debate. Personally I'd try to flesh out the historical debate more, and use that to highlight material which can be used as a foil to the criticism section. But be aware, our community's "woo detectors" are lethal once triggered. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:23, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The article cites psychological studies, they are not scientific and do not serve as proper reference to the article. Eduemoni↑talk↓ 16:12, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you just say psychology is not a science? And further above, that we should just point to parapsychology and delete all which is critical of it? --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:12, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is written under Bias 

message: In the section 'Scientific criticism' there is a quote stating "There is no known scientific mechanism which would allow precognition." This is attributed to Wynn, Wiggins, 2001.
The phrase 'scientific mechanism' has little if any meaning these days nor did it in 2001. Try looking it up in a reference work. Mechanistic reductionism is very old-hat, and very misleading for the unwary.
Science doesn't have 'mechanisms', although those using the phrase (perhaps usually not scientists) have repeated it for very many years as a hand-waving dismissal. If it is true that science can't find any evidence for precognition -- or anything else, for that matter -- then it therefore can't frame a hypothesis. That does not mean that the phenomenon doesn't exist. It means that science can no way confirm nor deny it's existence. This is not a criticism of science, it is a recognition that science has nothing to say about it.
I'd suggest a careful and more ... learned source to prove that this is a 'SCIENTIFIC criticism' rather than just a skeptical attitude. We owe that to people who actually trust Wikipedia's assertions. 
To finish with a quote from Nobel physicist Richard Feynmann (I believe it's taken from The Pleasure of Finding Things Out): 
 "Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. When someone says ‘science teaches such and such’, he is using the word incorrectly. Science doesn’t teach it; experience teaches it.".
Twang (talk) 01:46, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to make a positive suggestion as to what to say here, and whom to cite in its support. The current wording at least has the benefit of WP:VERIFIABILITY. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:02, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

text: It's obviously short for something like "mechanism scientifically confirmed to exist" or "scientifically plausible mechanism". Of course there are mechanisms within the scientific worldview, but they are only etymologically related to the mechanistic worldview. --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:25, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "scientific mechanism" 

message: Does this subsection really add anything to the subject? Even if it were referenced, what does an arbitrary collection of plot lines have to offer the reader of an encyclopedia? Unless independent RS do establish the significance of any examples (as they do for some literary occurrences), I'd suggest it be deleted. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 10:47, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popular culture 

message: Saw the request so found this here https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Казимир_Малевич_—_Важке_передчуття.jpg Good image I think with great title for the article. The image upload is a nightmare -if anyone can sort out the Russian and put the details in I'd be very grateful. Thelisteninghand (talk) 01:12, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I just copy-pasted the Russian into Google Translate and then copyedited it for Wikipedia. Has the meaning changed in (mis)translation? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:41, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

text: "Presentiment" is not used in the main article and is not the same thing as precognition, it is merely an uncomfortable feeling that something bad will happen. If it is the accurate translation (synonyms include "premonition", "foreboding" and "apprehension"), then the image is not suitable here after all. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:20, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

text: My several English dictionaries disagree profoundly with you. There is every difference between a vague feeling and a precise prevision. I see no chance of bridging that gap. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:49, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The pic 

message: The lead needs tidying up.  To deal with the nomenclature problem I wonder if ALL terms might be listed that indicate 'senses' before 'event' in the broadest terms. Also that these terms are not referred to as synonymous ie NOT 'also called x' but 'which may include x'. Or is that too vague? The list should include the words which cause re-directs to this article, or those words should be removed from the tag.
The last line refers to 'discussion within the parapsychology community'. The discussion goes further than that, as the citations in the article indicate. Thelisteninghand (talk) 20:31, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The lead 

message: Please be careful and read what you revert.  I've just reverted the recent edit to the title of the painting. Thelisteninghand (talk) 16:41, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing Errors 

message: Quantum Leaps in the Wrong Direction is a scientific skeptic book but was being misused on the article. This line was added onto the article (I have not checked which user added it yet) "There is no known scientific mechanism which would allow precognition. It appears to require either action-at-a-distance or telepathic effects". The latter is quite deceptive because the claim of "telepathic effects" is not supported by the source but even the first part should be considered original research because the page number given does not mention precognition it seems to be talking about psychokinesis. In the book Quantum Leaps in the Wrong Direction it says on p. 165 "One of the reasons scientists have difficulty believing that psi effects are real is that there is no known mechanism by which they could occur. PK action-at-a-distance would presumably employ an action-at-a-distance force that is as yet unknown to science... Similarly, there is no known sense (stimulation and receptor) by which thoughts could travel from one person to another by which the mind could project itself elsewhere in the present, future, or past." There is no mention of precognition and the claim or "telepathic effects" is false. It appears someone has been adding in original research to the article, I would be interested in knowing who added the "telepathic effects" claim because it seems to have remained on the article for a few years. It makes the authors of this book sound like idiots when they are not, so whoever added this bit was probably trying to discredit the source. This is what happens when references are not properly checked. Psychologist Guy (talk) 17:55, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Perhaps you can understand why, when I came across the article I frowned and edited. This page was an embarrassment, I was bold, it has led to improvements. I am grateful.Thelisteninghand (talk) 18:09, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

text: I meant to add this "Information passing backwards in time would need to be carried by physical particles doing the same." More nonsense I think which I had deleted. It appears to be a veiled reference to Tachyons and has no place in this article. Information passing backwards in time is now T-symmetry. Not citable so why is the archaic version cited?  Thelisteninghand (talk) 18:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It is believed to be correct. Nonlocal quantum phenomena alone have never been found to carry information at the macroscopic level, and there are various theorems (i.e. unarguable mathematical truths) about why not. The only known way to achieve that is to send an actual particle over. You are right that, at this level of physics, precognition implies tachyons, which we believe do not exist. But the grammar of the statement is such that that does not invalidate it, it invalidates precognition. T-symmetry is not an inviolable law. It is violated by some quantum interactions, and by the thermodynamic law that entropy never decreases. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:00, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks again. We mustn't get bogged down but I don't think you are right. Post-selection data are macro phenomena. (or else we wouldn't know about it..) I'll stop there. I'm arguing the statement is the wrong type of reasoning/evidence as it is referring to tachyons. The reader will likely know that such a theory has been debunked long ago or just be confused. I'll try to check the source and I'd welcome any further views on this.Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:04, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Quantum Leaps in the Wrong Direction''

message: Strong word which does not appear in the citation.  Suggest it be deleted.Thelisteninghand (talk) 22:59, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I have substituted the descriptor used in the cited source. If other editors wish to restore the stronger term, they are welcome to find sources for it. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:45, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks but the citation is wrong and 'irrational' doesn't appear in the text either. The citation is duplicated and is the Greenaway paper on control found under 'Popular Belief' and is not about psychiatry but psychology.  There is no medical context for the sentence. Precognition is not a medical condition (we don't say it is). Who is saying this?  It is uncited opinion . NB This sentence appeared on the page shortly after my first edit. I don't wish to cast aspersions but I believe there may be another reason why it's there. Been trying to use the edit review tools to find out more. Cheers. Thelisteninghand (talk) 16:39, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  The word "irrational" is used several times in the cited source, e.g.  so it could not be more clear that mental health professionals consider belief in precognition irrational. However this should be framed within the overall context given by the source, i.e. the premise of the paper:  - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:02, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

text: I take the point about the cited source not being aimed at clinical practice. Its context is in psychology, so I have amended the article accordingly. I would caution that in my experience it is very seldom that Machiavellian evil explains an edit on Wikipedia where plain thoughtlessness also offers an explanation. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:25, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

text: Medicine and psychology are part of science, so I've added a subhead for clarity. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:00, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

text: The citations in this section are to primary sources. We should not base claims of universality on them alone. I am particularly concerned that the quoted criticism by Schwarzkopf also applies, at least in part, to quantum retrocausality, which is an accepted scientific thing. Of course this does not validate precognition, but it does invalidate that part of Schwarzkopf's arguments against it. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:30, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Certainly primary source.  My problem with it as a citation is that it doesn't say what we're saying it says, it's being misappropriated. It's a very nuanced observation of statistical analysis. The quoted statement is actually about numbers not precognition. Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:19, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

text: Just noticed we now have a duplication problem, caused by the citation.  The 'control' study reference is already under 'popular belief'.  The citation is duplicated. Sorry to bug anyone.  And thanks LuckyLouie for rejig - looks a bit more sensible. Cheers Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:27, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dupe cite fixed. - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:43, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that the point it makes is duplicated. Worse, its argument assumes that the norm is scepticism, so therefore it cannot be used as evidence to that effect. One could equally well conclude from its specific findings that scepticism arises in people who feel secure in their future and are afraid to have it challenged. If that had been the conclusion, you can bet the detailed findings would have been attacked by the sceptics. Whether the actual conclusion is right or wrong, without secondary/tertiary support it looks too much like handwaving bollocks. Scepticism really does not need this kind of spurious speculation to make its case, it is better served standing on its true merits. I'd suggest both mentions of this claim be deleted - which rather suggests the whole Medicine and psychology subsection should go the same way. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 22:02, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's a mainstream psychology paper published in PLOSone, I wouldn't expect it to treat precognition as a real phenomenon. Mainstream science journals treating ESP, mysticism, and other paranormal concepts as unproven and unlikely has nothing to do with scepticism. It's just mainstream science. Regarding the text duplication, yes, I agree the duplicate mention in the "popular belief" section should be removed. - LuckyLouie (talk) 22:43, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes it is technically mainstream science as one would expect. But it is a lone unsupported primary source and the interpretation of the results which it offers is fundamentally speculative. When I count the number of times that sceptics have levelled such criticisms at sympathetic primary sources as justification for censoring them (I have used it myself in countering EHS woo papers), it is really not tenable to pick and choose one's censorship criteria based on whether one likes the conclusion or not. Scepticism deserves better. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:06, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't care whether it's mainstream or not. It's analysis of Bem's work and belongs there if anywhere. The editor has chosen the word 'CONTRADICTS' and that is my main objection because the paper says: "Statistical inference, regardless of whatever form it takes, only assigns probabilities. It cannot ever prove or disprove a theory." This statistical meta-analysis is simply yet another speculative opinion on Bem's experiments. Put it there or delete. Thelisteninghand (talk) 14:26, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Delusion" 

message: Precognition is not in the top category of 'obvious pseudoscience' but the second category 'generally considered pseudoscience':
"Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorised as pseudoscience."
The article may contain the relevant information. This would include 'further reading' and potentially some of the material deleted by Psychology Guy. Without casting aspersions I believe there may be an element of pseudoscepticism in the history of this article. That may account for why nearly every heading on this talk page is about bias. If we aim for it to be a good article the voices of respected psychologists and other notable authors with a sympathetic view must be referenced. Again "May properly contain that information". What, then, are we missing to get this to 'excellent'? (the blank space that is '21st century'?) Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:14, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: All that quote from the WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE policy says is that such an article may state that the topic has a following but is generally considered pseudoscience. The policy also expands on the requirement that "". What potentially throws a spanner in the pseudosceptical works is the WP:FRINGE/QS guideline which states "". Is that the case with parapsychology? Academic debate demonstrably continues on in the 21st century, but is it a "reasonable amount"? The ArbCom ruling at the top of the page takes precedence over such  mere guidelines. It defers to the US government's National Science Foundation, which decrees that parapsychology is full-blown pseudoscience. The fact that other US government agencies, at the front line of research, sometimes disagree is lost on ArbCom and therefore also on Wikipedia. But we should still represent NPOV as set out in the banner here. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:22, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

text: I think you need to read WP:YWAB, especially the references. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:47, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: "" (I note this in wry humour, not in anger, and I hope that it will be received as such). To be fair, individual articles do sometimes exhibit excessive bias, but yes it is easy to confuse our systemic policy with bad editing. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:07, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Clearly I need to learn how to do green writing. 
The discussion is about due and undue weight really. In the 21st century the entire debate on precognition has moved into the field of quantum biology and quantum mind.  Such hypotheses are postulated by Nobel prizewinning  physicist Sir Roger Penrose and neuroscientist Prof. Stuart Hameroff among others. The books I cited discuss at length the implications of these hypotheses for precognition in much the same way as in the 20th C, Dunne discusses Serialism. These hypotheses have substantial following (and funding) and there is a reasonable amount of debate. Precognition may not be like other paranormal experiences insofar as it appears to affect a large proportion of the population and it has always attracted sustained scientific interest which continues to this day.  We cannot simply call every sympathetic author fringe and refuse to allow them a voice.  The article is comical for the way it abruptly ends at 21st C. We close down the debate by citing quantum physics from 1960. There's no tachyon therefore precognition doesn't exist, Ha Ha Ha.  Any reader who has a remote idea would simply laugh. There should be at least one paragraph noting the current research hypotheses and the detractors and drag this article out of the last century. For editors who are carrying out improvements, it's looking and reading much better. Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:01, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

text: You have made all these complaints before and been answered. If you don't like the community consensus imposed by our highest authority, the Arbitration Committee, then you will be better off putting up your material elsewhere (as I sometimes do: I am as sceptical of the pseudosceptics as I am of the fruitloops, and they don't like that here). Keep Wikipedia content within its imposed bounds, and you will be fine. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:34, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I wonder if you read that paper. No it didn't mention precognition, it mentioned psi and quantum physics with particular reference to causality, which was the proof of the sentence I wrote. It was written by a physicist. As for my complaints being answered, they haven't. Rules are for challenging, envelopes for pushing. ArbCom might well be interested in these arguments, being more rational than some of this page. Cheers Thelisteninghand (talk) 20:39, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Linking that lot to precognition without a direct source for the link is original research and forbidden on Wikipedia. If you imagine that Arbcom will give you the time of day on this, you have an unpleasant surprise coming. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 21:36, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

text: Reading the GA nomination process and the review from last time. Interesting, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/Precognition/archive1 I'll wait a few days to let the article 'settle' and allow any further tweaking. Thelisteninghand (talk) 17:16, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Generally Considered Pseudoscience - what we may say 

message: We have Déjà Vu as an 'alternative explanation' for precognition. I don't consider that correct as it is another form of precognition phenomenon, not an explanation. Are we saying that temporal lobe epilepsy is an alternative explanation? Confusing to the reader I think and needs clarifying or deleting. Thelisteninghand (talk) 17:05, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked our article on deja vu and Britannica on paramnesia and confabulation; what conceptual muddles and confused writing! Fortunately, this paper in the American Journal of Psychiatry is of an altogether higher standard. It lists eight English-language synonyms for deja vu, going on to suggest "reduplicating paramnesia" as yet another -- and explicitly excluding it from being "actualized precognition" (meaning that "the subjective impression that the present situation has been foretold"). So, a flat contradiction of what Britannica claims. At the very least, our bullet point is really two - one each for deja vu and identifying paramnesia. The latter certainly has a place in the list. Deja vu might too, though it will need a positive citation for the claim, if it is to stand up to its debunking in Sno's paper. Maybe cite both the sources I have used here, and point out that this explanation is contentious? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:23, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

text: Now done. Even if the deja vu "explanation" is spurious, it needs keeping (but questioning/rebutting) as it has been offered often enough by pseudo/sceptics. I also tagged some other uncited explanations. I think all the list entries could usefully be expanded with examples, along the lines of the Nostradamus analysis. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 08:39, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Maybe I'm missing something obvious. Deja Vu is an alternative explanation for precognition? I don't agree. I think it is an entirely different phenomenon with its own explanation (and article) which is largely unrelated to precognition. Deja Vu shouldn't be in this section but moved to 'see also'. I also read some of the other explanations as being extremely similar - memory bias, retrofitting and paramnesia all have very similar wording. There may be nuances which I am overlooking but I wonder what the reader can make of this.  I'd prefer a merge of some points but maybe I'm wrong. I don't think the coincidence argument has ever stood on two legs - just a blanket non-explanation of anything, but I realise it is offered by science. It is more wacky than suggesting Orch OR in my opinion. We have a lot of cns now. Cheers. Thelisteninghand (talk) 17:00, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you about deja vu, as does Sno writing in the American Journal of Psychiatry. Deja vu and precognition have distinct and incompatible phenomenological qualities. But the more ignorant sceptics have touted it often enough to deserve discussion here. Funnily enough, I lack the enthusiasm to go dig out an ignorant but reliable sceptical reference. When someone does, we can add Sno as a counter-claim to it. I think you have a point about the others, too. But we must be careful not to suggest equivalence of false memory mechanisms; even though they are essentially one and the same criticism in marginally different guises, saying so would be original research. Maybe something like, "False memories, such as [specific mechanisms], where the memory of a non-existent precognitive event is formed after the real event has occurred." — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:55, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

text: Done. Retrofitting did not fit with the others in the end, it is more about false interpretation of the record than a false memory as such. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:05, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. Yes, the word quagmire comes to mind. I'll have a look for citations on deja vu. You've used the word 'incompatible' and I'd agree, they are two very different things. And I agree about trying to differentiate memory syndromes, I pity the poor reader though. Your last sentence raises a wry smile.  Cheers! Thelisteninghand (talk) 18:22, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deja Vu 

message: Is this subsection justified? The first sentence, on contradicting most of the neuroscience and psychology literature, is just a consequence of the violation of causality, it even invokes "temporal effects". The second, on irrationality and control freakery, is more an alternative explanation than a scientific criticism. (sub)sections for both of these already exist. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:33, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree the heading does not describe the content well and neither citation is particularly helpful. The Greenaway paper is worth a read as it does not overall, give the negative impression quoted but says that 'believers' benefit from their belief - there's the psychology. I did think about changing the quote. The first citation contains this gem “Science is not about finding the truth at all, but about finding better ways of being wrong”. It too deals with Bem again - both the cites in 'lack of evidence' are also about Bem so that's not good. I think the heading can go and the control freakery put under alternative explanations as you suggest. The first sentence is repetition and looks more like something to go in the lead if anywhere. (Having trouble finding sources for those cn'd alternative explanations.) Cheers Thelisteninghand (talk) 16:34, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Done, as best I can. The Greenaway paper is quite bizarre, one of those "sceptics really should be able to do better than this" exercises; I'd better not start as it will not improve the article. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:36, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't it. My guess is it was stumbled across while an editor was at ncbi. It says more about belief than precognition but that's Ok. I just rejigged the first para under 'antiquity' which was a word mess. It still mentions premonition which we've said above isn't precognition - I don't have the source so I left it. Also I wondered whether we should define precognition as one aspect of ESP - it's mentioned later and wikified but could be in the lead? Cheers Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  List of psychic abilities has 'precognition or premonition' under ESP. I've left it unchanged. Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:47, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I have brought it in line with the definition of premonition on the disambig page. I'll dig out Inglis when I get time and see what he actually says. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:51, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

text: A quick scan of Inglis has found no mention of "premonition". Looking at the article, it is mentioned alongside dreams and trances. I'd suggest that all three - premonitions, dreams and trances - usually do not involve precognitive experiences, but that they all can do on occasion. The fact that Inglis does not explicitly use one of these words is of little concern, I have no doubt that other sources can be found. So I see no need to change the current text. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 12:19, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Medicine and psychology 

message: This may be worth including under 21st C. Time magazine 2017: The U.S. Military Believes People Have a Sixth Sense "[Are] there ways to improve premonition through training" Lieutenant Commander Brent Olde. https://time.com/4721715/phenomena-annie-jacobsen/ Thelisteninghand (talk) 00:04, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not clear to me that this is about precognition - the article mentions the P word only once and does not attribute it. The program is arguably more about brain processes such as unconscious perception, biofeedback and cognitive training, to enhance intuition and instinct. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:32, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  US Defense Department 

message: Does the section on religion add anything to the article? It just echoes the ambivalent attitude of cultures generally. Should it be cut? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:09, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  In religion 

message: There are many people that claim, that they do not have precognition from dreams, because:
1. they do not recall dreams
2. very quickly forget the dreams
3. do not keep memory of dreams for long
These people are unable to provide any data to research, so the pool of source is limited - even biased as it is limited only to those who are experiencing precognition... unless it is possible to gather dreams without requiring subjects to remember their own dreams, as it looks that dreams are significant part of the phenomena
However, from those who remember, there seems to be no reliable (in other words - repeatable) system on how precognition works(that does not mean that it undermines observed phenomena - it only means, that there are no reliable ways to repeat experiment - because there is no way to "reset" a human being and since it is unknown what causes dreams, then it would require "resetting" of whole universe - that simply means, that researcher has to be outside of known universe to repeat experiment or something else has to be observed instead of what is being tried to be observed):
1. it is not something that can be reproduced at will - it seems to be a mix of various factors involved: dream generation, memory factors to remember dreams(seems to be usually from last cycle) right after awakening, and keeping those memories as long-term
2. time of occurence of precognition varies wildly - it can happen after awakening and can happen after years
3. there does not seem to be significance of those events - they are more like a fragments of memories about future and that's it
The main issue with phenomena is mainly in establishing what are mechanisms behind it(because at current stage there is still battle going on in deciding if it is real or not), as that raises more questions, than gives answers. Quite a lot of those questions can be explained only in pair with something like Simulation Hypothesis(which itself seems to be only a beginning of something that is more serious on topic).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.113.79 (talk) 13:17, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: What change to the article are you suggesting? If you are not, you are in the wrong place since this is not a chatroom. If you are, you will need reliable sources. --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:39, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the issues on gathering scientifical data