Talk:Straight, Incorporated

message: Wes fager, before he passed away, did an absolutely wonderful job of researching information about straight.
There were actually 2 straight companies, the straight foundation, inc and straight, inc. Apparently straight inc changed its name to straight foundation inc in 1985 and changed its business to a funding corp, and a new company was created with the old name to continue running the business. This was done to shield assets according to fager. he has a very well written page that has all of his research cited at  http://www.thestraights.com/financial/st-fdn-piercing-veil.htm. Unfortunately many of the sources cited are not available online, and i need to actually check the citations before I include all of this. so, when time permits, i will be heading to the library and spending my day at the microfiche machine i guess... hopefully soon. There is a lot of very well documented questionable and possibly criminal behavior associated with straight, and i feel if we can check all the sources out it it should be included.
another item that needs to be followed up on:
Straight,inc literature has stated straight did not receive any federal funding. HOWEVER, several non-wp:rs sources have claimed that straight received at least $100,000 in federal LEAA grants in it's first two years. There must be some sort of audit trail for that sort of thing in government documents somewhere...
an interesting document i have found, again, not from a source i would consider to be wp:rs, is here:
http://survivingstraightinc.com/DocumentLibrary-allbranches/straighttax1.pdf
It is unfortunate that Mr. Fager is no longer with us. I now need to go and verify literally dozens of his sources. I am confident the sources will pan out, however, as so far every citation of his that I have checked has been legit. If anyone has the time and ability to help with this, pls leave a message on my talk page.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.3.62.19 (talk) 22:04, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The Straight Foundation Inc. still exists. In 1995, they changed the name to Drug Free America Foundation, Inc. The 1995 annual report shows the old name. (Primary but definitive sources, so they'd have to be used with care.) Perhaps this article should be somehow merged with this one: Drug Free America Foundation? AndroidCat (talk) 19:24, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Items that need to be followed up on

message: This is essentially a complete rewrite. I've kept some of the first paragraph, everything else is changed.
I removed the entire section on the phases, which was most of the article -- they didn't seem very relevent, and they were completely uncited. If someone finds a good way to put a summarized version of them in, that'd be great.
I had trouble keeping this NPOV -- the only sources I could find talk about its abuse towards its clients and mention various lawsuits. And none of them mention their own sources. Unfortunately, I think I left a fair amount of information out just because I couldn't lose the POV ...
LamilLerran 10:08, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some things can simply not be viewed from a neutral point of view. Straight is one such thing. Every honest attempt at putting them in a neutral light has to trigger use of some adjectives. Like appalling, bigoted and illegal. But, as wikipedia goes, even Hitler surely was a nice guy after leaving his office and it would be against policy to simply write that he was a human monster. 87.78.178.85 11:44, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sept 24 2006 Rewrite 

message: Please do not interfere with WP process. speedy is for incontestably NN articles or obvious attack pages. This is supported by the source, and deletion has been and is being contested. The AfD should run its course. It would, however, help  to have stronger sourcing. DGG 05:29, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: speedy during Afd

message: I have removed:
=== Allegations of Abuse ===
Why are these people's first-hand accounts being removed?  It is understandable that some may need to be spell-checked, however, they can be placed under a section titled: personal accounts of abuse. I'm unsure of why this is happening, especially considering this place and others need to be shut down. 
Several former patients have claimed that widespread abuse occurred at Straight, Inc. Shelby Cornwell has made several allegations"More Straight, Incorporated survivor accounts." The Agitator. : 
* "[a] staff member passed out pictures of my father ... The staff member told the group that the man in the pictures was my boyfriend, asked the group how they felt about me 'f***ing an old man'"
* "I was in group when clients were 'marathoned.' This meant that the client was kept apart from group for several days, 3 was common. During that time, they were kept in the bathroom or a small, empty office and beaten, cursed, spat on, and denied food and sleep."
* "In St. Petersburg, FL, staff would turn the heat on in the middle of summer ... Many people vomited and passed out due to heat exhaustion."
Leigh Ann Bright also reports abuse: "They broke kids' bones and bloodied them up. They drove kids to attempt suicide. Brutality was part of their program. They called it 'tough love'".
Though these accusations are sourced, there is no way of knowing if they are accurate and IMHO we should not record accusations without greater reliability.
I have also removed:
"To date many of those responsible for the abuse inflicted upon former patients of Straight still go unpunished. Some, like the programs founding couple have even rewarded for their efforts in destroying the lives of thousands of teens in the US."
This is POV, pure and simple. Bridgeplayer 16:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsupported accusations 

message: Why are these people's first-hand accounts being removed?  It is understandable that some may need to be spell-checked, however, they can be placed under a section titled: personal accounts of abuse. I'm unsure of why this is happening, especially considering this place and others need to be shut down. 
Several former patients have claimed that widespread abuse occurred at Straight, Inc. Shelby Cornwell has made several allegations"More Straight, Incorporated survivor accounts." The Agitator. : 
* "[a] staff member passed out pictures of my father ... The staff member told the group that the man in the pictures was my boyfriend, asked the group how they felt about me 'f***ing an old man'"
* "I was in group when clients were 'marathoned.' This meant that the client was kept apart from group for several days, 3 was common. During that time, they were kept in the bathroom or a small, empty office and beaten, cursed, spat on, and denied food and sleep."
* "In St. Petersburg, FL, staff would turn the heat on in the middle of summer ... Many people vomited and passed out due to heat exhaustion."
Leigh Ann Bright also reports abuse: "They broke kids' bones and bloodied them up. They drove kids to attempt suicide. Brutality was part of their program. They called it 'tough love'".
Though these accusations are sourced, there is no way of knowing if they are accurate and IMHO we should not record accusations without greater reliability.
I have also removed:
"To date many of those responsible for the abuse inflicted upon former patients of Straight still go unpunished. Some, like the programs founding couple have even rewarded for their efforts in destroying the lives of thousands of teens in the US."
This is POV, pure and simple. Bridgeplayer 16:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Allegations of Abuse 

message: I've stubbed this article (removed nearly all content) because the content completely fails to meet wikipedia's standards and needs a total rewrite. Among the issues are:
#Copyright issues/plagiarism. Significant portions of the article are lifted from . See WP:CP. Examples include: "Because participants were policed, punished, or rewarded by each other, a unique camaraderie exists towards the very individuals who inflicted the torment." "Given the 20 years required for the memories to resurface, and the additional sequelae of PTSD, only a fraction are beginning to seek and receive successful treatment for their trauma."
#The article is completely biased and presents only one side of the story. By searching through news articles I found that while there were many allegations of abuse, the program was also praised by significant figures including two US presidents. This is absent from the article. The organization and its treatment method is described completely from the point of view of the critics. See WP:OR
#The use of sources is very bad. Instead of mainstream news or academic sources, there are references to "Cannabis Culture" and to websites run by self-described survivors of the program. A great deal of information is completely unsourced. In certain cases - for instance the link to WCPO - the sources do not seem to actually say what the article indicates that they say.
#Some very serious allegations are completely uncited. See WP:NPOV.
The extent to which this article violates wikipedia policy is shocking. This post, as well as other posts on the article's talk page lead me to believe that the article's editors have a clear conflict of interest and an agenda. That's not acceptable. This is an encyclopedia and articles need to be well-researched, well-sourced and fair. This is not a place to propagate grievances. GabrielF (talk) 06:20, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Something you need to get straight - we aren't interested in 'truth', we are interested in verification via independent reliable sources - anything else will be removed. Your best bet if you wish to contribute to this article is to add short sections which are sourced to reliable sources - there are many more editors that before now watching this article (and I'm one of them) so edits will be examined even more closely than before.  --Cameron Scott (talk) 15:04, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

text: You can see previous versions using the history tab on the article page. If you have questions about editing policy, do just ask. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:55, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

text: If the article is subject to problematic edits, then yes it is possible to lock it again. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:15, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

text: And I still recommend that you add small sections at a time to avoid problems. --Cameron Scott (talk) 07:35, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

text: Unlocking is only going to be a problem if the article gets vandalised or the edit war starts up again.  As to the other, I can only recommend that you be prepared to discuss your edits on the talkpage if someone reverts you. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:27, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  stubbing the article 

message: The edits today are better than previous versions of this article, but there are still some serious issues:
#Please don't delete sourced information about the organization's supporters while adding information about its critics.
#Please see our reliable source policies. Wikipedia is NOT considered a reliable source for citations. You can cite the material that the wikipedia article cites, but you can't cite the article itself.
#I'm concerned about the use of AlterNet as a source because it's an activist source - however, I'd like to hear other opinions on this as I'm not too familiar with the website. We can probably say something like: "According to the website AlterNet..." but I think there needs to be an attribution.
#The text should clarify that Jeb Bush and others are on the advisory board of the successor organization, Drug Free America Foundation, not on the board of Straight, Inc. This also doesn't belong in the section "Allegations of abuse".
#The St. Petersburg Times article cited (located at rickross.org) IS a good source, and the footnote should state explicitly that its from the St. Petersburg Times. See :Template:Cite news for how to do this. However, it doesn't seem to say what the editor thinks it is saying - the US Senate does not grant licenses to drug treatment facilities for instance (nor does the Florida State Senate). GabrielF (talk) 21:05, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  November 12 edits 

message: Blondie, can you please provide some additional information about two sources that you added:
#
#
Are these blog entries or were they published elsewhere?
Thanks,
GabrielF (talk) 00:15, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  sources 

message: *If the nominator is willing to do the work a merge entails, I have no objection. Abductive (reasoning) 06:11, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: *One legal entity with a name change in 1985, and another to the present name in 1995. AndroidCat (talk) 22:32, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

text: *"Modern-day" DFAF doesn't seem to acknowledge the connection on its own websites, but DFAF is the same entity as Straight, from everything I can find. GuideStar, for example, says this on the DFAF profile (I'm about to add this to the citations; requires a free account, annoyingly): "Formerly known as Straight Foundation, Inc."; "Ruling year 1978". See also these Florida Division of Corporations records. Gmarmstrong (talk) 19:12, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments