Talk:Stevie Wonder

message: Wonder's Ghanaian citizenship does not belong in the lede. If this were the case, why is Tom Hanks not referred to as an "American-Greek" actor? Thanks. dekema (Formerly Buffaboy) (talk) 14:55, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like a very similar case. Do we have any statement by Wonder saying that his Ghanaian citizenship is of less importance to him than his American one? I'm assuming only he could really make that judgement. Perhaps he hasn't had time to make any statement on it yet. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:06, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

text: His citizenship should not reflect what he is. He is not Ghanaian. This is a misrepresentation for those who are of actual Ghanaian heritage. 58.69.9.90 (talk) 02:54, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Citizenship =/= ethnicity. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:50, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

text: This is just "something else doesn't exist, therefore, this shouldn't exist" which is a very weak argument at best. Do you have any guidance from the MOS? To my knowledge, this is only discussed at MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:50, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think we need to reference the MoS. This is common sense... has he stated that his Ghanaian citizenship is equal to his American one? dekema (Formerly Buffaboy) (talk) 04:38, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Has he stated it? what? Who states that?  Please undo your edit, as it is sourced. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:42, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

text: The MOS advice is about punctuation, not whether or not dual nationality should always appear in the lead section? But one could argue that it's a simple fact that should be summarised in the lead. Unless Wonder himself makes a statement, it seems fair to assume that he sees them as equally important. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Then let's go ahead and add it to every celebrity who has a second citizenship. I think this is a bit petty to be honest. Natalie Portman was born in Israel. Do we call her "American-Israeli?" dekema (Formerly Buffaboy) (talk) 13:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the Talk page for Stevie Wonder, so it might be best to just limit our discussion to him? If you have a proposal for defining more clearly how dual-citizenship should be shown in the lead section of all BIO articles, you might be better raising this at a more central location such as MOS:LEAD? Meanwhile it's probably best if you leave the article alone, while consensus is established, rather than edit warring your preferred version. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:16, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Additionally, this applies to categories that were removed/could be added. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

text: The two top article contributors are Proscribe and SilkTork, so I would invite them to comment. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:50, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

text: There should still be consistency among articles, which is why I'm linking to these individuals. We can't just ascribe these things based on a singular event. Again, with many celebrities you will hardly see them referred to as dual citizens in the lede unless they have significant ties to that country, i.e. how Michael J. Fox was born and raised in Canada. Even Tina Turner, who moved to Switzerland decades ago is not referred to as American-Swiss. In that article, no nationality is mentioned in the lede. Maybe that's what should happen here. dekema (Formerly Buffaboy) (talk) 20:47, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you see my comment? You might be better raising this at a more central location such as MOS:LEAD? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:31, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

text: In the absence of any clear guideline, one might very easily argue that all individuals need to be assessed on their own merits. So what one editor might see as "necessary consistency", another editor might see as an "unnecessary straightjacket". Martinevans123 (talk) 09:57, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Responding to the ping. I don't think I can be of much help here. I'd actually prefer us not to give people's nationality or citizenship in the lead, as these things are trivial yet contentious, and I wonder why we do it. I'd prefer if we are to mention nations (which are arbitrary and can change - the world maps I studied as a child are very different to today's world maps), that we say something more factual and uncontroversial, such as "Stevie Wonder was born and brought up in America" ...."in 2024 he was granted citizenship of Ghana". We don't actually need to say he is American or Ghanaian. I know that Wonder wanted to give up music and move to Ghana and help folks there way back in the Seventies. There was much coverage of that in the music papers at the time. He was talked out of it, and told he could help more African people with his music. The Ghana citizenship is clearly something that is important to him, and a mention of this in the article is appropriate. Should that mention be in the lead? I'd say no. Considering all that he has done and all that he is, the Ghana citizenship is fairly minor and personal. Rather less so than information about his wives and children.  Syreeta is a more significant piece of information than the gift of Ghana citizenship from a country which hands out such citizenships for political reasons of their own, but Syreeta is not in the lead. I feel that having the Ghana citizenship in the info box and details later in the article is sufficient. MOS:CITIZEN gives some loose advice, which leans on mentioning dual nationality in the lead only if it is reasonably significant (such as that a person was known as living and working as a national in two countries). A promotional gift is really not a significant reason in my view. SilkTork (talk) 13:33, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That's all very reasonable, thanks. I'd have to agree that being the recipient of a gift of citizenship is likely to be very less significant than having had to actively win a second citizenship. Leaving it out of the lead section altogether might be a good way of avoiding a tetchy dispute prolonged cordial debate. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:48, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Another possibility might be a footnote next to "American". Martinevans123 (talk) 07:48, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citizenship 

message: change Stevie Wonder is a American Ghanaian to Stevie Wonder is an American. 
Him receiving citizenship can be notated on the side like it is for Christopher Bridges, but categorizing him as a American Ghanaian is misrepresentation for those who actually have Ghanaian and American heritage, in which Stevie Wonder does not. He is of Black American lineage 58.69.9.90 (talk) 03:03, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Pinging @Koavf who just made this change. Jamedeus (talk) 03:31, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

text: I have no clue what you are talking about. If someone gets Ghanaian citizenship, he is Ghanaian. If someone's ancestors are from Ghana but he is not, he is ethnically Ghanaian. W. E. B. du Bois is Ghanaian, Stevie Wonder is Ghanaian, lots of persons are Ghanaian and them being Ghanaian in no way disenfranchises someone else from having that nationality. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:48, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:06, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, and also with your view, Martinevans123, that the discussion on this Talk page be limited to the article on Stevie Wonder. From my reading of what he has said, I think he himself would also find the description American-Ghanaian preferable. Proscribe (talk) 19:32, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

text: I believe you far more than meet the requirements for autoconfirmed; was this edit request intended? Tollens (talk) 05:42, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: No. I am under 0RR. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I see.  for the one category that was removed, because the other two were not and it seems the actual dispute is just about the lead section, so I assume this is an uncontroversial reversion. If I am incorrect, please feel free to remove the category, I have no opinion whatsoever on the change. Tollens (talk) 06:56, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 15 May 2024