Talk:¿Por qué no te callas?

message: Any ideas of which categories this should be in? its not only an important political event but also a cultural one. Thanks, SqueakBox 02:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Categories

message: I would argue that this article may not meet the notability requirements.  In any case, it should only be a part of the Juan Carlos I article.  Cheers.--Burzum 03:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As one of the refs says, 665,000 Google refs, and that is a sign of notability as indeed is much that then BBC Mundo article alluded to. To merge into Juan Carlos I would be totally inappropriate as he was only one of the protagonists and the spreading of this incident through video clips, jokes etc is also clearly not solely related to Juan Carlos, indeed such a merge would go against neutrality as it would indicate he was the main protagonist, especially given that it is Chavez and Venezuela who today said the incident is not settled. Thanks, SqueakBox 03:50, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This has now more than a million google hits and has clearly turned into a very popular meme. Cattus talk 05:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As noted in the WP:N article the notability cannot be just temporary.  And Google hits are not a very useful reference to a phrase commonly used in Spanish.  As WP:N discusses "a short burst of present news coverage about a topic does not necessarily constitute objective evidence of long-term notability."  Until the notability can be determined it should only be a footnote in the Juan Carlos I article and a quotation in WikiQuote.--Burzum 07:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I think the strong evidence indicates this is not temporary and ¿Por qué no te callas? looks set to pass into the Spanish language related to this incident. I thought long and hard before pressing the edit button on this article and if I had thought it was only going to be a temporary meme I would not have submitted it. Thanks, SqueakBox 15:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Or maybe be moved to Ibero-American Summit? The Ogre 15:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

text: There is no article for Ibero-American Summit 2007 and I looked at the Ibero-American article before creating this one and concluded it would be inappropriate there as that article does not deal with specific summits. The only reason to create a 2007 article would be because of this event, it is that notable, and I am certain the article will expand as its one of the most notable events in the Ibero world of the last few years. While I oppose a merge IMO if one were to occur it would necesitate creating an article on 07 Summit, which has various other notable events such as Juan Carlos walking out while Ortega spoke and the conflict between Argentina and Uruguay, and merging into that. Thanks, SqueakBox 15:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notability/Merge 

message: This is an unsourced edit, which was left attributed incorrectly to a previous source, and which introduced a commercial external jump into the text.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:39, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed this as spam and linked T-shirt internally. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:09, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There were two of them; I removed the second.  The 10,000 Euros remains uncited, and may be original research.  Really, the entire edit should be reverted.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:14, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed as likely COI, if it gets sold and we can ref that then we could consider re-adding. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:19, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsourced edit

message: moved ¿Por qué no te callas? to  ¡Por qué no te callas!—contrary to every source I can find, leaving double redirects, and with no discussion.  Now admin intervention will be needed to move it back.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I should add that, unless an admin can move this back, the article will need a POV tag, since this new title—contrary to every source I've seen—implies a demand rather than a query from the king.   SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Grammar-wise, it is wrong to use "Por qué" in a sentence that does not involve a question. Since the issue here is that the King of Spain made a question (he didn't say, "Cállese", for example), the previous title was inaccurate as well. I've moved it back. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 16:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When I created the article I inaccurately called it Porque no te callas till i realised that every source was saying ¿Por qué no te callas?. Thanks, SqueakBox 17:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ¿Por qué no te callas? is the correct form in Spanish for a question, which is implied in the form "Por qué" ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It was more an exclamation than a question, that is, we can bet the king was not expecting an answer. Perhaps the best way to render the phrase in written Spanish is "¿...!" or "¡...?"; unusual but correct combinations of the orthographic signs.  However, printed press in Spanish almost always use ¿...? JRSP (talk) 20:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not for us to figure out the king's alleged motivation but to use sourced refs, everyone else uses question marks so we will too. Thanks, SqueakBox 20:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yep. And I don't bet on the king's motives.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:58, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is obvious the phrase is an imperative, not a question. That doesn't mean that the question marks are wrong, in fact, I agree the title should use question marks as it is the most common version in printed press. JRSP (talk) 21:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That wasn't obvious to me at all, but if we're going to engage in original research, I saw it as a rhetorical question.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We can interpret it however we want really. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:25, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

text: For those who don't read Spanish, this is in favor of the question marks: "the phrase is not an affirmation, it's a question". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Neither an affirmation nor a question, it is an imperative: an order or request. It is not a question because JC is not asking HC for the reason why he don't shut up, he is requesting him to shut up. JRSP (talk) 21:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just the translator (but I agree with Anselmo and disagree that we can know it was an order).  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  From the context, it is clear the phrase has an imperative meaning. You do similar things in English like "Would you shut up?". Although written formally as a question, the real meaning is a request. JRSP (talk) 22:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Move without discussion

message: I moved the articled based on the following sources, which address the issue from the perspective of experts of the Spanish language, not based on how every news outlet wrote it:
*(Fundéu, Spain) The Urgent Spanish Foundation clears this up by answering to a user's question on whether it should be written ¿Por qué no te callas?, ¡Por qué no te callas! or ¡¿Por qué no te callas?!. It says all three are correct, and adds another correct version: ¿¡Por qué no te callas!?. It says that if only one sign is used, then, because of the situation in which it occurred, it should be written as: ¡Por qué no te callas!
*(Las Últimas Noticias, Chile) The director of the Chilean Academy of the Spanish Language says (translation): "The king's phrase is correct. Even though it has the construction of a question, it is not.  By form, it should be written with question marks; however, in semantics, it must be written with exclamation marks." That is, ¡Por qué no te callas!
I believe the article should be moved back to ¡Por qué no te callas! and I'm making a note of it in the main article. ☆ CieloEstrellado 13:55, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Refer to the consensus in the section above.  If you would discuss moves beforehand and arrive at consensus with other involved editors, you would save everyone a lot of work.  Can you please explain 1) how your first source is a reliable source, and 2) why your second source takes priority over every other source used?  I'd also like to know how the author can arrive at the conclusion, "Even though it has the construction of a question, it is not."  Did he ask the king?  By the way, your second article appears to be a copyvio, so I don't believe we can link to it.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 1) Fundéu is very influential on Spanish language media. The fact that it is supported by the Royal Spanish Academy and the Cervantes Institute should be enough to convince anyone, and it conforms with WP:RS. 2) My second source takes priority over every other news source simply because it addresses the issue of how it should be correctly written, something none of the other sources do. Regarding your third question, you don't need to ask the king anything, the expert is simply reproducing what he heard the king say. Wikipedia doesn't analyze motives or intentions, it simply compiles what has been observed and documented by others. And, lastly, I don't understand what you mean by "your second article appears to be a copyvio, so I don't believe we can link to it." If you meant that linking to a copyrighted article is a copyvio in Wikipedia, then you're wrong. You can most certainly link to copyrighted articles in Wikipedia. What you can't do is reproduce copyrighted article in Wikipedia. ☆ CieloEstrellado 14:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read Restrictions on linking.  Since you weren't aware of that, I'm still wondering how you justify your first source as reliable; please explain.  I didn't ask if it was "influential"; I asked if it has editorial oversight, a reputation for fact-checking, and other elements of WP:RS and WP:V.  Yes, Wiki reports what reliable sources say, and virtually every reliable source reports the phrase as a question. You have produced one author who decided, apparently on his own, that what he heard was not a question.  He is entitled to his opinion, but how does that outweigh all of the other reliable sources?  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, the second link does not violate WP:EL and every other wiki policy you'd want to throw at me. You're just being a nuisance, instead of being helpful. Fundéu does have editorial oversight. Go to their site and inform yourself. And above of all, instead of acting in a pedantic way, try to BE NICE! :) ☆ CieloEstrellado 19:30, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: CieloE, if you don't want to answer the questions, that's fine, but please don't say anyone else isn't "being nice" for asking them.  The second site links to a copyvio; it violates WP:EL.  For the first site, you haven't explained why you consider it reliable.  I don't.  And you haven't explained why your *one* source should trump all other sources that it disagrees with, because its author takes a differing, personal opinion. Of course, if you don't plan to discuss these matters, you should probably remove the tag from the article.  Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do explain how the second link violates WP:EL. Also explain why you don't consider the first site reliable. And as for your last question, I already answered it above. Cheers! ☆ CieloEstrellado 19:53, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like a photocopy of the actual paper; is the website the same owner as the original paper copyright owner, and is it a photocopy or is it just the quality of the site that makes it look like a photocopy?  Also, I like your addition of a new section to the article to explain the issue, but calling a particular site "authoritative" likely violates WP:PEACOCK and WP:WTA.  They are all "authoritative".  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you'd bother to do a little research yourself, you'd find that going to the main site (www.lun.com) shows this is the newspaper's official site and their way to present their content consists of photocopies of the actual printed edition. I may change authoritative as it may be indeed fall under WP:PEACOCK. ☆ CieloEstrellado 20:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Further point (edit conflict) independently of whether a message board post to Fundeu is a reliable source, they do not indicate a preference, they specifically say all three are correct, so your text "should be written" does not appear to be correct.  You have one source that claims this, based on one person's opinion.  We don't usually include message board posts as reliable sources, so perhaps your text could be revised to reflect that you appear to have one source that prefers different punctuation. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:09, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't use this patronizing we as if I were some newbie. The link I gave is not a message board. It's an expert's answer to a user-sent question. It's a service, not a discussion. And it's the official word from Fundéu. If you dislike their format, then I'm afraid I can't help you. If you read carefully, though, they say that if one is only using one type of punctuation mark, then the correct form is ¡Por qué no te callas! ☆ CieloEstrellado 20:24, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're certainly pleasant to talk with.  If I read carefully, I see that all three are correct.  Since your second source is a photocopy, I can't cut and paste the text into here, but their wording doesn't seem to strongly support the case for "should be written" either.  It appears to me that you have a weak case of one person saying exclamations should be used.  Unless you have more convincing evidence, would you please remove the tag now?  The section you have added seems to cover your case, if not give it undue weight.  Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe you should check your Spanish, because it's pretty crystal clear that that's the whole point of the article. ☆ CieloEstrellado 01:45, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Although I do not know Spanish, I think what Carlos asked is definitely a rhetorical question, like the previous user has said. Of course, I don't seriously think Chavez would answer the question, but a rhetorical question is still a question, so the question mark should stay, right. But just ignore my comment if I interpret the use of ! or ? in the title incorrectly.Chris! ct 01:37, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  My own (non-rhetorical) question: Is "would you explain me what a rhetorical question is?" a rhetorical question? JRSP (talk) 02:01, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not following what you're asking, JRSP.  But my two cents.  Clearly, no one can ask or demand that Chavez shut up, and he's never going to, whether asked or demanded.  So it was clearly rhetorical, a question which neither expected nor has an answer.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Clarifying: Let us consider the English construct Would you explain me this?. Is that construct a rhetorical question or not? JRSP (talk) 02:17, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not an English major :-) But usually when you ask someone to explain something, you expect or hope for an answer.  Do you think JC expected an answer?  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Don't worry, Sandy, I'm not a Spanish major either. My point is that in both Spanish and English you can use a formal question to mean something that, semantically, is not a question: a request like Would you give me some water? or an exclamation like What have I done to deserve this. I think in some case (like the latter example) English speakers could hesitate between a question or an exclamation mark, am I wrong? JRSP (talk) 02:35, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm the wrong person to ask, since I'm not a grammarian, but to me, the last is also a question.  Anyway, we're veering off topic here :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, others may differ.  Thanks for removing the tag, Cielo; I don't know if we should remove the template from here on the talk page?  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

text: But it was phrased in a way that only fits a question. "¡Porque no te callas!" would mean "Because you don't shut up." "¿Por qué no te callas?" means "Why don't you shut up?" Using "¡!" with "por qué" is grammatically incorrect–that is what is taught in elementary schools throughout the Spanish-speaking world. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 02:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're setting up a straw man here and shooting down something only you brought up. Nobody said ¡Porque no te callas!. It's ¡Por qué no te callas! and it's correct Spanish, as the two sources I gave above indicate. ☆ CieloEstrellado 02:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I oppose the move, base don common usage. Thanks, SqueakBox 01:59, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Removing the punctuation entirely from the article title is not out of the realm of discussion, but I'm very curious about your "clearly not agreed upon" statement, since it clearly is agreed upon by a massive preponderance of sources and consensus of editors here.  We have an un-authored message board post (which should be disallowed per WP:RS) that disagrees, and the opinion of one Chilean press report which is clearly the author's opinion about the intent of the speaker; that does not disagreement make.  On the other hand, we have dozens of reliable sources that agree on the punctuation.  So, if we're going to discuss removing punctuation as in "Tear down this wall", we should at least have that discussion based on accurate representations of reliable sources.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:44, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: Can we remove the punctuation entirely, since it is clearly not agreed upon or inherent to the title? Many other titles that are phrases or sentences also omit punctuation: Tear down this wall, All your base are belong to us, It's the economy, stupid, Olly olly oxen free, Veni, vidi, vici, Kuwabara kuwabara.... Dekimasuよ! 11:30, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Removing the punctuation entirely from the article title is not out of the realm of discussion, but I'm very curious about your "clearly not agreed upon" statement, since it clearly is agreed upon by a massive preponderance of sources and consensus of editors here.  We have an un-authored message board post (which should be disallowed per WP:RS) that disagrees, and the opinion of one Chilean press report which is clearly the author's opinion about the intent of the speaker; that does not disagreement make.  On the other hand, we have dozens of reliable sources that agree on the punctuation.  So, if we're going to discuss removing punctuation as in "Tear down this wall", we should at least have that discussion based on accurate representations of reliable sources.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:44, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New suggestion

message: The Spanish article includes a picture of the king. Do we need that in this one? I would think not, people could just click the links to the people to get one, but I was wondering what general consensus on this is. Morhange (talk) 03:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be so nice if someone would do the WP:FN footnote placement fixes to the Spanish article.  I'm indifferent to a picture.  If you add one of the king, you'd probably have to add Chavez, and that always seems to generate heat.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Neither the king nor Chávez isolated from the event. I don't like the present picture either, this wide angle shot of the conference table doesn't add much to the article. What we need is a snapshot of the right moment the king says the phrase with Zapatero and Chávez included. If we can't find a free image I think we can use a copywrited one claiming fair use as this can be considered a  moment of historical importance. JRSP (talk) 03:27, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure; Fair Use interpretation has gotten really tight lately.  We would need to get an opinion somewhere, not sure where. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:35, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That would be the last resort, First, we'd try to get a free image. JRSP (talk) 10:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: *The incident is unprecedented since never before has the king shown any sign of irritability. 
Does anyone else think this translation is a stretch?  I suggest changing it to:
* ... never before has the king publicly displayed such irritability.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Never? Any? 

message: On this section:
* According to at least two different sources —Fundéu, the Urgent Spanish Foundation, and the Director of the Chilean Academy of the Spanish Language—the phrase uttered by the king, given the situation under which it was said, should be written with exclamation marks instead of question marks, i.e. ¡Por qué no te callas! Alternatively, it could also be written using a combination of exclamation and question marks, i.e. ¡¿Por qué no te callas?! and ¿¡Por qué no te callas!?
We've got dashes, question marks, exclamation points, italics, diacritics and i.e. 
WP:MOS discourages the use of i.e. and e.g., but also says we should leave them alone if the original editor used them.  Because of all the different punctuation and diacritics in that phrase, I feel it's much too busy looking.  Does anyone care if I replace the i.e. with straight prose (for example, using the words that is) so that we have less punctuation issues bombarding the brain ?  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:38, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact, would it look cleaner if we combine it all like this:
According to at least two different sources —Fundéu, the Urgent Spanish Foundation, and the Director of the Chilean Academy of the Spanish Language—the phrase uttered by the king, given the situation under which it was said, should be written with exclamation marks instead of question marks.  Alternatively, it could also be written using a combination of exclamation and question marks, hence:
* ¡Por qué no te callas! or
* ¡¿Por qué no te callas?! or
* ¿¡Por qué no te callas!?
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:43, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

text: As long as the name remains the same in the title that looks good to me. Thanks, SqueakBox 02:45, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I guess we should strike different as redundant:  two different sources = two sources.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:52, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Punctuation, replace i.e. with prose 

message: I asked a friend who speaks Portuguese to look at the unsourced addition about Gato Fedorento; he could find no newsworthy mention of it, and thought there was no justification for part of the current sentence.   I'm concerned that we avoid having a WP:TRIVIA explosion of every un-newsworthy mention of "why don't you shut up?" and suggest we delete the sentence since it can't be sourced to an independent, secondary reliable source.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''[[Gato Fedorento]]'' 

message: quote: [In Mexico City, the dust-up became a skit on the satirical show 'El Chavo del 8.']
This is not correct. El Chavo del 8, a popular tv character, was created in the 70's. Old instalments of the children's 'sitcom' is still being broadcasted on tv all through Latinamerica. It's creator is Chespirito,  who has also come up with, among others, "El Chapulín Colorado" (a spoof on superheros), using the same cast of actors. These shows have always been loved by children and adults.
A recurring phrase in the show was uttered by Quico, who when El Chavo was going on and on explaining things, would scream in desperation: "!Cállate, cállate que me desesperas!" [translation: "Shut up, shut up , you're driving me crazy!"]
And this is the phrase that -very fittingly!- was edited in at least one of the songs "?Por qué no te callas?" (sang to the tune of "!Que viva España!"), maybe using an original soundbyte from the show with the actor's voice, but most probably (copyrights!) the voice of another actor imitating Quico's particular voice.
[note: My appologies to the readers of spanish: I haven't got a clue how to produce the upside down exclamation mark and dito question mark indispensable in Spanish interpunction)   — [Unsigned .]
:Hi, IP.  You can  sign your talk page entries by adding four tildes (~~~~) after your entry, and please place new entries at the bottom of the page.  I'm not clear what you are suggesting or asking.  Did you read the original source for the entry?  Another editor had changed "Chabo" to "Chavo"; I changed it back to distinguish and to indicate it was a satirical skit, probably not the original show.  What is the text that you propose?  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: El Chavo del 8

message: We don't have Prime Ministers in Spain. Zapatero and Aznar are/were Presidents. Please correct.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.58.54.169 (talk) 01:02, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  On posts 

message: Can anyone understand this edit?  It inserts uncited original research (diplomats happily celebrating Christmas) and removes cited text.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:09, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reviewing this user's talk page history, it appears to be a pattern.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:21, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This user is now blocked; reinstating the previous text.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:10, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

text: It is pretty clear where the political views of this editor lie. I thought the paragraph on Zapatero and Latin American poverty was very interesting and certainly should not have been deleted. Thanks, SqueakBox 20:16, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a thread at WP:ANI, so I just went back to the text before this editor's contributions; are we OK now?  I'm not clear if you're saying some of his edits were good? Do I need to reinstate something? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:40, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not at all, Sandy, Aranherunar removed the interesting bit about Zapatero and Latino poverty in the link you gave above but it certainly is now back in the article, the bit that starts with Time magazine. And hey I am giving you my support, your help on this stub I started has been impressive. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:23, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whew, OK, I was afraid I misunderstood :-)  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:33, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unexplained insertions and deletions

message: Regarding this edit, the text is not speculation.  It is cited text, and the t-shirts were (are still?) available on ebay.  Please explain the removal of cited, verified, accurate text.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:23, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent deletions of cited text 

message: See El Pais for the sequel. --Matthiasb-DE (talk) 19:07, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In English:    SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  ¿Por qué no te callas? — The Sequel 

message: Chávez: Dígale a él que respete la dignidad de nuestro pueblo.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            	Chávez: Tell him (Zapatero) to respect the dignity of our people.
Zapatero: Exijo que...                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    	Zapatero: I demand that...
Rey: ¡Tú!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 	King Juan Carlos: You!
Zapatero: Un momentín…                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    	Zapatero: One moment.
Chávez: Dígale lo mismo a él.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             	Chávez: Tell him the same.
Zapatero: Exijo ese respeto, por una razón, además…                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       	Zapatero: I demand that respect also.
Chávez: Dígale usted lo mismo a él, presidente.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           	Chávez: Tell the same to him, President.
Zapatero: Por supuesto.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   	Zapatero: Of course.
Chávez: Dígale lo mismo a él…                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             	Chávez: Tell the same to him.
Zapatero: Por supuesto.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   	Zapatero: Of course.
Chávez: Porque él anda irrespetando a Venezuela por todas partes, yo tengo derecho a defender.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            	Chávez: Because he goes around disrespecting all of Venezuela, I have the right to defend.
Zapatero: Bien...                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         	Zapatero: Well...
Rey: ¿Por qué no te callas?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               	King: Why don't you just shut up?
Bachelet: Por favor, no hagamos diálogo, han tenido tiempo para plantear su posición. Presidente, termine.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                	Bachelet: Please, let's not speak, you have had time to express your position. President, please finish.
Zapatero: Si, un momentín.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                	Zapatero: Yes, one moment.
Chávez: Yo no puedo aceptar esta posición del presidente Zapatero.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        	Chávez: I cannot accept this position from President Zapatero.
Zapatero: Presidente Hugo Chávez.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         	Zapatero: President Hugo Chávez.
Chávez: Podrá ser español el presidente Aznar, pero es un fascista y es un falta de respeto.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              	Chávez: President Aznar could be Spanish, but he is a fascist and it's a lack of respect.
Zapatero: Presidente Hugo Chávez, creo que hay una esencia en el principio del diálogo y es que para respetar y para ser respetado, debemos procurar no caer en la descalificación. Se puede discrepar radicalmente de las ideas, denunciar los comportamientos, sin caer en la descalificación. Lo que quiero expresar es que es una buena forma de poder trabajar entendernos en favor de nuestros pueblos, que nos respetemos, a los representantes democráticos, y pido –presidenta Bachelet– que esa sea una norma de conducta en un foro que representa a los ciudadanos, que respetemos a todos nuestros dirigentes, a todos los gobernantes y ex gobernantes de los países que formamos esta comunidad. Creo que es un buen principio y deseo fervientemente que ése sea un código de conducta, porque las formas dan el ser a las cosas, y se puede discrepar radicalmente de todo respetando a las personas, ése es el principio para que uno luego pueda ser respetado. 
Estoy seguro que toda esta mesa y todos los latinoamericanos quieren que todos los gobernantes democráticos (…) seamos respetados, hoy y mañana, aunque discrepemos profundamente de las ideas que tengamos.
Fueron intervenciones que coinciden con determinadas posiciones y son interrumpidas las intervenciones, cuando no coinciden con determinadas posiciones. Hoy España ha tenido una segunda intervención, y yo he tenido nada más una intervención, así es que no me pueden limitar a tener otra intervención (...), Ya si no nos dan derecho de hablar,..no tiene sentido esta cumbre, así es que yo no me limito a tres minutos.	Zapatero: President Hugo Chávez, I believe that there is an essence in the principle of dialogue and it's that to respect and to be respected, we should try to not fall into disqualification. You can radically disagree with the ideas, denounce one's behavor, without being disqualified. What I want to express is that it's a good way of being able to work understanding ourselves in favor of our peoples that respect us, the Democratic representatives, and I ask you (President Bachelet) that that be normal conduct in a forum that represents the citizens, that we respect all of our leaders, the rulers and ex-rulers of the countries that form this community. I believe that it's a good principle and I hope fervently that this be a code of conduct... you can disagree radically with everything respecting everybody; this is fundamental in order for one to be respected. 
I'm sure that this whole table and all Latin-Americans want all of the Democratic rulers to be respected, today and tomorrow, even though we disagree profoundly with the ideas that we have. They were interventions that coincide with determined positions and that were interruted, when they don't coincide with determined positions. Today Spain has had a second intervention, and I have had nothing more than an intervention. This is why they can't limit me to have another intervention. If we are not already given the right to speak, this peak point has no feeling; this is why I can't limit myself to three minutes.
Chávez: ¿Me das un minuto?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                	Chávez: Would you give me a minute?
Ortega: Claro que te lo doy.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              	Ortega: Of course I will.
Chávez: Quizá menos de tu minuto, Daniel. Para responderle (con una frase de un infinito hombre de esta tierra) al presidente Zapatero, con todo mi afecto, él sabe que se lo tengo, me refiero a José Gervasio Artigas cuando dijo: «Con la verdad ni ofendo ni temo», el gobierno de Venezuela se reserva el derecho a responder cualquier agresión, en cualquier lugar, en cualquier espacio y en cualquier tono, solo.	Chávez: Perhaps less than your minute, Daniel. In order to respond to Present Zapatero, with all my affection—he knows I have affection for him—I refer to José Gervasio Artigas when I say: "With the truth I neither offend nor fear." The government of Venezuela reserves the right to respond with any aggression, in any place, in any space, in any tone.
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:02, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transcription 

message: Zapatero is actually the president, not the prime minister. I've changed that.
--Tack50 (talk) 17:17, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone else earlier disagreed with you, and made the opposite change :)  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:22, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Both tend to get used; they refer to the same thing.  For example: see Prime Minister of Spain in English (which mentions both) but :es:Presidente del Gobierno de España in Spanish.  The complicated answer: The official title for head of government in Spain has changed with different constitutions over the past 150 years; since the current 1977 constitution, the position's name has been President of the Government () — note, not "President of Spain".  The head of government in Spain has traditionally been referred to as Prime Minister in English and several other languages, as is common for systems where the head of state and head of government are separate; and in many such systems that don't have a monarch like Spain, there are both a "president" as head of state and "prime minister"/"premier" as head of government, so in cases other than Spain, it is important to distinguish between them, as the "president" in other countries is often the other office, not the one commonly called "president" in Spain.  My understanding is that Spaniards use the term "" in normal speech as there are no other important offices named "president" in Spain; the term "prime minister" () does exist in Spanish, and is understood to be the same function, though it is not the term Spaniards commonly use for their own head of government in Spanish: see the section #On posts above by a Spaniard.  "Prime Minister" does get used fairly often in English, however; if the citations are to be believed in the Wikipedia article, European Union guidelines prefer it for the English name of the office in Spain. --Closeapple (talk) 20:49, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title of Zapatero 

message: What is  doing here? --Theurgist (talk) 23:55, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mobile phones 

message: "In Spanish, tú is usually used for close friends, family, or children and can be regarded as insulting when used in other circumstances". That's certainly the case in American Spanish but not in Spain itself, at lest in modern times is very frequent the use of "tú" ecen among people who don't know each other. What I mean it´s that maybe the use of "tú" could sound offensive in Venezuela but it doesn't sound offensive for a (contemporary) Spaniard (wich Juan Carlos is).--Pacostein (talk) 22:24, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm speculating here, but wouldn't Spaniards be aware of this, especially in the context of a diplomatic conference? Especially given the context, it seems likely that the phrasing was specifically chosen to belittle Chavez. --BDD (talk) 15:17, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Tú vs usted

message: The article largely collects sources favourable to the King or disfavourable to the President. This article makes Chavéz look in in bad light and largely fails to depict legitimate points of view that are unfavourable to the King. Sietecolores (talk) 01:44, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You are welcome to provide alternate sources to justify your point; I see someone removed the unjustified POV tag.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:28, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on ¿Por qué no te callas?. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on ¿Por qué no te callas?. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20081208073548/http://www.elperiodico.com:80/default.asp?idpublicacio_PK=46&idioma=CAS&idnoticia_PK=457570&idseccio_PK=1007 to http://www.elperiodico.com/default.asp?idpublicacio_PK=46&idioma=CAS&idnoticia_PK=457570&idseccio_PK=1007
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: https://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/23/weekinreview/the-world-no-chirac-didn-t-say-shut-up.html Zezen (talk) 10:23, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: No mention = SYNTH. SandyGeorgia (Talk)  02:10, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  French version: Chirac to Poland 

message: This article, heavily discussing events of more than a decade ago, now seems dated.  Is the phrase still in use in popular culture?  Does it still have the currency that it did in 2007, or has it faded into the background (as seems likely)? --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 16:38, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Here are the scholarly hits only newer than 2016:  now that the article is off the mainpage, I will work them in. Similarly, a google search in the last year only reveals numerous reliable source mentions.  It will take me some time to sort them down to which to add. SandyGeorgia (Talk)  02:28, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Retrospect