Talk:Music of Ireland/archive

message: Images Have been added and this is nominated as a good article again.
What is popularly presented and marketed as "Irish traditional music "has in fact nothing specifically to do with Ireland or the Celts at all.
Its origins go back merely to the 1400s (by which time  Celtic culture had vitually broken up )and when the last of the Crusaders brought back from Palestine and other Middle eastern lands Arab music instruments and dances.Arab music also spread from Moorish Spain at the same time.
The fact that this music "stayed" with the various remains of Celtic tribes was due to these areas-Western Ireland Scotland etc- being difficult to get to ,inhospitable and relatively primitive.
However in some cases a tradition was strong enough to survive through to today even in areas of relative "prosperity" an example being Englands "Morris Dancers" who perform unaltered a Arab/Berber  Moorish dance found throughout Arab North Africa 
By the end of the nineteenth century "Irish traditional music" was played only by Irish gypsies-no Irish Catholic would have allowed such music within  earshot and would have driven its practitioners away with a stick.
It is interesting that such music finds no place in any Irish literature-there is no reference to it in Joyce -where references in Ulysses to Italian /German opera abound and where everyone in Dublin from street boys  and barmaids to the old crippled sailor seem to be singing British music hall ballads-
This music only really began to flourish when it was resurected following the creation of the Republic of Ireland in 1921 , removed from the gypsies and installed as  part of Irelands  new culture.
That is not quite all however... 
When investigating historical origins one never knows where one will end up....
Some years ago in Beijing I visited a traditional Chinese Opera and sat on wooden benches   in a circle in a kind of shed to see two or three players-a doll baby was involved perform...To my amazement the endless three or four note up -down music was identical to Irish folk music with a difference in the rythym only-it was played on three instruments a fiddle tambourine and one string bass or something-(Warning:I suspect such true examples of traditional Chinese music are getting very rare in todays China)
It is of course reasonable for nations that achieve independence to want to create a "pure" cultural heritage unique to themselves but in the case of European "folk music" that is  really not possible.
In real terms Irish folk music is little older than the radio and gramophone record.
There is an interesting example of the difficulty of defining the national identity of folk music that many people may have come across.This concerns the haunting unaccompanied "lament " that a woman sings over the opening credit titles of the film "The English Patient" The screen shows views of desert sand and most people probably think the song is Arab-but it could be a typically Irish lament-in fact it is a Hungarian folk song!  Palestine-Hungary -Ireland-each separated by a thousand miles yet linked by  folk music!! 
Note :This contribution should really be inserted at the beginning of the article-if you want the article to have any kind of real relevance-though I doubt if that, sadly will happen  JP End.
  
:Ok, I don't know when much of the above was added, as I didn't read it when I first started following this article, but it seems to have a rather twisted perspective on the music and some of it is frankly plainly wrong.  The music was never limited to the Travellers (or Tinkers if you prefer the term my Dad and Mom use.. in any case, they aren't gypsies).  Certainly elements of the Irish Diaspora were still playing and collecting the music at the end of the 19th century as can be seen by the O'Neill Music collections from the late 19th  century.  Further their are musicians in their 70s and 80s today who learned the music from their parents and grandparents.  It seems highly unlikely that they would have learned the music from their parents in the 30s if the music barely existed before the 20s.  Chris Droney, a famous clare concertina player, has talked about his grandfather playing the music and his grandfater died in the 1920s! (he was I believe 98 years old)  
:Further it would I think be remarkable, had Irish Music been at best an all but dead form prior to the 1920s, for there to be so many regional (and indeed sub regional) dialects in the music.  Counties Sligo, Clare, Galways and Kerry (as well as others) all have distinct variations in the music is played.  Had the Irish Music been revived purely for nationalistic goals in the 1920s, it seems like a single style would have been choosen as was done for the attempts to turn Ireland back into a Gaelic speaking country.
:The references to Joyce is particularly irrelevant, commenting on what he writes about Dublin at the turn of the century is hardly relevant since Dublin was never considered a center of Irish Music and was far more under the influence of the English than Western Ireland.  I bet you would have been hard pressed to find Old Time music in New York in the 1920s, it doesn't mean that Old Time music didn't exist.
:Similarities with other music traditions does not necessarily imply a link between the two traditions.  Most folk music is simple structurally and so it is likely that similar structures could evolve repeatedly over the years.  Certainly there was and remains alot of cross pollination between various music traditions... Tunes are borrowed from other traditions, new instruments, even new elements of music (for example the increasing use of Rhytem elements in Irish Music).
:Finally of course there is this notion that if Traditional Music only goes back 600 years that it is somehow not traditional!  Very few musical traditions can claim an ancestory that old. Bill McHale 15:24, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

message: I have moved Gerry O'Connor from banjo to fiddle - that's what he's best known for. I have changed Pat O'Connor to "Pat O'Connor (fiddler)" to remove the association with the formula One driver. I have removed Patrick Moran because he's Canadian - he doesn't belong here. I have added Maire Breatnach.Ogg 10:06, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  O'Connor 

message: There are no images. slambo 17:44, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delisted GA 

message: A couple of comments in the banjo and mando sections struck me as POV (and irritated me personally somewhat as a player of these instruments.) In the banjo section, we see "Skilled and sensitive players will generally find themselves welcomed in "open" sessions, provided no more than one plays at a time." The "provided no more than one plays at a time" qualification strikes me as odd. Why would some players be opposed to hearing more than one "skilled and sensitive" player at a time? Is this just the author's view, or can we actually attribute this sentiment to someone specific?
In the mandolin section, "Chord-strumming on the mandolin (particularly bluegrass-style "chop" strumming) does not blend well in an Irish traditional music setting." Two related points here:
-bluegrass techniques don't blend in readily in ITM
-no chording on the mando will "blend" well (even if the player is a skilled accompanist in ITM).
Both points are aesthetic jugements and thus POV. In my own view the first point seems more easily supported than the second: chording on other mandolin-related instruments (mandola, bouzuki) by competent players seems to be accepted readily by many in the ITM scene, so what is it that makes the mandolin so offensive? (and who, specifically, finds it to be so?)
Having said this, pet peeves against incompetent/insensitive players of certain instruments in ITM do seem to be held by many musicians, and if we had some quotes from Irish musicians or experts on Irish music that conveyed these sentiments, I think it would be worthwhile. I liked the handling of this topic in the bodran section: the phrase "multiple conflicting bodhráns being beaten simultaneously" strikes me as hilarious.
I wonder if a section somewhere in the article dealing generally with harmonic accompaniment in ITM might be warranted. Some traditionalists frown on the very idea of accompaniment on principle, and other listeners simply prefer to hear unadorned unison playing. A bit of history dealing with accompaniment on different instruments might be good here too. I'm not sure where in the article woul be a good spot for such a section, though.
Eloil 00:58, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think those comments fit into this article at all; they might fit in Irish traditional music session. This article is already overly long and a discussion of session dynamics is off-topic here in my opinion. As to whether or not multiple banjos or "non-traditional" instruments are welcome in a session, it really depends on your session; some seem to be much stricter than others. As for chording on the mandolin, any absolute statement on a matter of aesthetics is almost certainly wrong. The statement could be changed to "Chord-strumming on the mandolin (particularly bluegrass-style "chop" strumming) is uncommon in Irish traditional music."--Craig Stuntz 14:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pet peeves against certain instruments/accompaniment 

message: A poster mentioned above the excessive length of the "Music of Ireland" article. I think a sizable chunk of this excessive length results from the detailed description of concertina types in the accordion/concertina section. There seems almost to be more detail here on the anglo and english systems than in the concertina article itself. In my view, the scope of the article demands little more than a description of the difference between the two systems (different notes on push/pull vs same note) and the degree to which each is employed in Irish music (ideally with some examples of musicians).
On the other hand, the accordion part of this section seems to have no information on the different types of accordions used in ITM. I'm no expert on the topic, but I think an overview of the instrument should include some of the following points:
-Two main types in ITM: diatonic and piano accordions
: -Diatonic ("button") accordions are more commonly played
: -based on the diatonic scale 
: -different notes on push/pull
: -right hand plays on small round buttons organized in vertical rows: each row plays the notes of a particular key
: -some types have a row that includes accidentals not included in the other rows
: -selected chords/bass notes on left side
: -push/pull setup means many chords may be impossible w/right hand
: -not all of these missing chords are supplemented by left hand buttons 
: -Piano accordions less common in ITM
: -typically much larger than diatonics
: -right hand plays on piano keyboard: easier for players with piano experience to start
: -left side has many chords and bass notes: often many chord types in all keys
Currently there is no introduction tying together the parts on accordions and concertinas. Conceivably each could have its own section but I think two instruments so closely related belong in the same section. Also, the concertina part can describe the anglo by referring to the diatonic accordion and the english by referring to the piano accordion, without having to duplicate the push/pull scenario explanation.(Hopefully I've matched up the right accordion to the right concertina here.) I know far less about concertinas than I do about accordions, but I've heard that the anglo is very closely analagous to a three-row diatonic with an accidental row, if you put the top half of the accordion on one side of the bellows and the bottom on the other. This isn't a very graceful explanation, but does anyone else know what I'm talking about?
Eloil 23:32, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accordion/concertina section 

message: What about mentionning Patrick Cassidy described as "Ireland's most important classical composer"?
Web site: http://www.patrickcassidy.com
I prefer Shaun Davey, but the real objection is: he's based in Los Angeles.
Ogg 19:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patrick Cassidy 

message: I've removed the second paragraph in the harp section
:The most renowned Irish harpist of recent decades is likely Máire Ní Chathasaigh.  Other notable recent Irish harpists include Laoise Kelly (of The Bumblebees), Mary O'Hara, Antoinette McKenna, Derek Bell (of The Chieftains) and Aine Minoque.
since several of the names were already included in the first paragraph (I've added the rest of them there) and the claim about the most renowned harpist is very subjective (I'm not familiar with Máire Ní Chathasaigh, but I know of several of the others).
Magnus 16:45, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This article does need a better focus and organization.  The "music of Ireland" ought to include all the music produced in Ireland, in any style; to some extent, it also needs to go into Irish music elsewhere.  The top of "music of Ireland" includes how it has effected the music of other places, whether by emigration or otherwise.  However, the topic is broad enough there needs to be a number of subarticles (there's a Celtic music in the United States, mostly about the Irish, and a Celtic music in Canada, mostly about the Scottish IIRC), on things like Irish folk music, Irish pop and such. I don't know whether Dropkick Murpys or Flogging Molly need to have a mention by name, but that sort of topic should have at least a brief description and link to more complete coverage (in the context of Irish music in the US). Tuf-Kat 05:19, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alteration - Harp 

message: I updated the section on the Accordion to give it better coverage.  I am thinking of revising the concertina section as well.  In particular, while the English does show up in Sessions from time to time, it is almost unkown in recordings and is definitely a much more recent introduction to the tradition.  It should also be stressed that the Concertina is most typical of the music of Clare.
Bill_McHale 9 February 2006
: Mick McAuley of Solas uses both Anglo and English concertinas on Solas's recordings. Then there's this. There are probably others; I can't claim any expertise on the subject beyond enjoying listening to the instruments. I agree that Anglo concertinas predominate, but careful about overgeneralizations. :) --Craig Stuntz 14:57, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well I did say almost unknown :).  I didn't know that Mick also played English.  As for Sarah Graves, I am not sure she fits in the Tradition strictly speaking.  Yes she does play several Trad tunes, but most of the tracks look to be English or Scottish Tunes.  I am not saying that the English won't end up in the Tradition, but at the moment it is pretty marginal particularly in the higher levels of playing.  In any case, I think the concertina part of the article does need to be revised away from describing the instruments to describing their place in the Tradition. --Bill McHale 18:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Regarding Mick, that's what the liner notes for The Words that Remain claim. I couldn't tell you how much he plays each one. --Craig Stuntz 19:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I went and looked up the liner notes in question last night and can't find the mention that I remember. So I'm taking back the comments about Mick until I'm sure. Maybe I'm just remembering incorrectly. --Craig Stuntz 12:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Whats getting frustating here is that I know the information for concertina.  Both through observation and through talking with other players.  Every Irish Concertina Tutor on the market, and every Irish Concertina class I have ever seen offered all assume that one is playing the Anglo Concertina.  I have been playing Irish Music for 3 years now and the concertina for well over a year.  Oh well let me keep researching, I will find the info I need to properly update the concertina write up.  I am not saying the English should be taken out, but it does need to be de-emphasized and more attention paid to the actual history of the concertina in Irish Music, not on the details of the instrument itself. -- Bill McHale 18:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alteration - Accordion and Concertina 

message: I would just like to express my annoyance at the fact that the 'Music of Ireland' article is categorised as 'Music of the United Kingdom'. Also, why is it that the 'Music of the UK' article lists the 'Music of Ireland' under a UK category? Many Irish people would find this very offensive, including myself. 
The main annoyance is that the article gives the impression that Irish music is a triumph of the great United Kingdom, which it is certainly not. Three foreign friends have already read the article and have since commented "I didn't know Ireland was in the UK", which has prompted me to write this comment.
I appreciate that Northern Irish musicians are a big part of Irish music, but I do not appreciate 'Music of Ireland' fecklessly lumped under the category of the United Kingdom. 
I would like to discuss the matter with moderators and editors involved in these articles. 
Thank you.
:This article purports to cover the music of an island, part of which is politically part of the United Kingdom.  Thus, anybody who wants to study the music of the United Kingdom will need to read this article as well.  "Music of Ireland" is, in fact, part of the "Music of the United Kingdom"; it does not follow that "Music of Ireland" can not also be considered a topic in and of itself (which is why we have a separate article on it).  Anybody who purports to read something political into that is putting something there that isn't there. With that said, if you'd like to propose something, feel free. Tuf-Kat 02:59, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Music of Ireland belonging to the music of the United Kingdom 

message: Some of this, particularly in the opening paragraph, is simply wrong and from a very dumb, narrow nationalist POV. It seems to imagine that Britan successfully destroyed all of our traditons. To that end, I've done a bit of revising and will continue to do so. Fergananim 20:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, but careful not to swing the POV too far in the opposite direction. I tried to neutralize the voice a little more, as well as cleaning up some grammatical mistakes. -GlamdringCookies 00:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Revision needed

message: Here is spanish content that I reverted from the page, and posted the verbose content here so that whoever entered did not have to retype it all upon moving to the Español Wikipedia -GlamdringCookies 23:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Español Content 

message: I've made a number of edits to the article on sean nós, but all of my information comes from a book that I have. That is, I do not have any experiential knowledge of the topic: I only know what I have read. Therefore I am writing this comment to try and encourage people who know more than I do to review/edit the sean nós article, which I'm sure can be improved significantly by knowledgeable editors. If asked, I can discuss the basis of my edits, but of course, any statement in the article which was already present in this archived version was put there by a previous editor and I can't really comment on those. 
I also am responsible for the link from Ornament_(music).
Zerrakhi 04:27, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sean nós 

message: I would like to encourage all editors of this article to have a look at the talk page of WikiProject Irish Music, and offer input. Music of Ireland is rather dual-purpose at the moment, and perhaps could benefit from disambiguation or sub-articles. To expand this article to include everything within the scope would more than likely make it TL;DR. --Kaini 04:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A minor addition; Music of England deals exclusively with English traditional music; Music of France deals with all French music. Some consistency between 'Music of...' articles would obviously be desirable. --Kaini 04:19, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  contemporary vs traditional irish music 

message: Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 03:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Re-Review and In-line citations