Talk:Middle Way

message: The Ancient Concept of The Middle Way hello!
“The Middle Way” is one of the most ancient concepts of meditation in the world even before the Buddha time. Long lost to humanity, it was rediscovered by Buddha more than 2,500 years ago. 
Lord Buddha referred to “The Middle Way” as a path that leads to enlightenment by avoiding the two extremes of sensual indulgence and self-mortification. And from avoiding both extremes, one will gain vision and knowledge that leads to Peace, Supreme Knowledge and Enlightenment.
However, according to many well-known Meditation Masters, the real knowledge of meditation practice on the path of “The Middle Way” had been lost from this world for about 500 years after the passing away of the Lord Buddha.
The Re-discovery of The Middle Way
“The Middle Way” concept of meditation became lucid and more practical to meditation practitioners again in 1916 after the attainment of “Dhammakaya” of Luang Pu Wat Paknam (The late Abbot of Wat Paknam), a renowned Buddhist Monk and a celebrated Meditation Master. 
Luang Pu is the one who laid his life down in the condition of gaining the supreme truth of The Lord Buddha. In 1916, at the age of 33, he had sat down in the posture of meditation and made a vow that he would never rise up again and sat till death if he could not find the supreme truth of the Lord Buddha. And with his strong determination, he meditated the whole night until he finally revealed the real path and the body of supreme truth, “The Middle Way and The Dhammakaya”.
:To the anonymous editor who wrote the above:
:It is wonderful that you have found a meditation practice that you have found fruitful.  It sounds too like you have found a medtiation teacher (and his followers) who are charismatic and have some knowledge of the DhammaVinaya.  (For instance, your second paragraph above is accurate.)
:Please recognize though that it is not unusual for a Buddhist monastic or  former monastic to create an idiosyncratic or specialized mediation style that has given them special experiences and that thousands of people have subsequently found enormously beneficial.  To see truly popular examples of such, for instance, please see Jack Kornfield's "Living Dharma: Teachings of Twelve Buddhist Masters" (1996).  (And, honestly, when I myself first started my Theravada practice, it was under the instruction of a  deeply loving former Theravada monastic who now teaches an amalgam of Buddha Love/Jesus Love.)
:Please also recognize that the narrative you have associated with this specialized meditation style is certainly not consistent with the Buddha's Dhamma and that it is not widely accepted by Buddhists.  While, for instance, the use of the phrase "Middle Way" to describe your teachers' style is "catchy" and "clever," it would be misleading to attempt to convince others that this is the real Buddhist notion of Middle Way.  Personally, I feel that your statements above -- which, by the way, have a pleasant neutral tone to them -- attempt to convey that this idiosyncratic meditation style is consistent with ancient teachings, but there appears to be no proof of this.  Thus, your putting such forth in this manner appears, at best, naive and, at worst (and I hope you can understand how others might see it this way), disingenuous.  (For WP readers who are new to Buddhism, the following WP articles convey more traditional and authentic Buddhist meditation practices: Buddhist meditation, Anapanasati Sutta, Satipatthana Sutta, Vipassana, Samatha, Metta,  Shikantaza, Zazen, Koan, Mandala, Tonglen and Tantra.)
:So, please stop trying to incorporate words (as well as blatant advertisements) associated with this non-traditional practice in this encyclopedia article.  I would like to suggest that such text might be more appropriate in an article on your particular Wat or community. 
:May you be well and happy,
:LarryR 17:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction to The Middle Way 

message: The word “Dhammakaya” is an ancient word means the Body of Enlightenment (Dhamma means the truth or the enlightenment and Kaya means body). This term was found many places in many old Buddhist scriptures both in Theravada and Mahayana schools. It is not the new term or new theory from the Teaching of the Lord Buddha. 
Dhammakaya is the body that transformed Prince Sidhatta to The Lord Buddha. The enlightenment of the historical Buddha is explained as his mind became perfectly refined and purified to the same level of the refinement and purity of the Dhammakaya, and thus attains the body of enlightenment. The Dhammakaya is therefore seen as central to the Teaching of the Lord Buddha.
Dhammakaya is a source of peace, wisdom and true happiness, exists in all human beings and can be attained through the process of self-refinement and self-purification. 
  
Dhammakaya Meditation Technique
Dhammakaya Meditation Technique was rediscovered by Luang Pu Wat Paknam, the late Abbot of Wat Paknam. With his great work of meditation, he found that the station of stillness or the gateway of The Middle Way is at “The Center of the Body” around two-finger width above the navel. And the center of the body is the best point that any meditation practitioner should lay the mind down upon. 
The technique is simple but effective. Just keep your body and mind relaxed and maintain your attention slightly at the center of the body. Once you touch or feel the station of stillness at the center of your body, you will experience inner peace, true happiness and the transforming power that Dhammakaya Meditation can provide for every aspect of your life. 
Although Dhammakaya Meditation was developed as a technique by the Lord Buddha, its practice is not limited to Buddhists. The practice has nothing to do with any organized religion or sectarianism. For this reason, it can be freely practiced by everyone without conflict due to race, creed or religion. People from many religious backgrounds have experienced the benefits of Dhammakaya Meditation and have found no conflict with their profession of faith
Please find more story of Middle Way Dhammakaya Meditation from:
http://www.dhammakaya.or.th
http://www.meditationthai.org
http://www.suanpetchkaew.com
Or
Samarth Pochachan
info@mcc.co.th
:Please see the prior entry's discussion regarding non-traditional practices.  
:Since this is a talk page, blatant advertisements and misappropriated concepts will not be deleted.  But for non-Buddhists who might happen upon this entry and think there is an element of ancient authority to it, please understand that there is not.  
:This is not to say that this entry's meditation practice might not be an effective meditation practice -- it is similar to many other practices.  For instance, the "two fingers above the navel" instruction sounds similar to a traditional Zen instruction of "two fingers below the navel," although admittedly the former might be aiming at the diaphragm whereas the latter aims for the hara.  Truthfully, dozens of points in the body can be chosen.  The Thai Forest tradition identifies six or seven.  I also remember a Buddhist monk talking about his first teacher using the hands as a point of mediation.  
:Regardless, to claim that such an idiosyncratic practice is associated with the ancient notions of the Middle Way does a disservice to Wikipedia readers and, many would say, does a disservice to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.  (Traditional Buddhist would label such as "wrong view.")
:Best wishes, 
:LarryR 17:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Essence of Dhammakaya 

message: I was not aware that the Middle way was the same as the Eightfold Path, or at least sufficiently similar to justify the phrase "It however would be more accurate to see it as another name for the Noble Eightfold Path", regardless of the quote supplied to justify it.
Removed text:
:It however would be more accurate to see it as another name for the Noble Eightfold Path.
"The middle way discovered by a Perfect One avoids both these extremes; it gives vision, it gives knowledge, and it leads to peace, to direct acquaintance, to discovery, to nibbana. And what is that middle way? It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the middle way discovered by a Perfect One, which gives vision, which gives knowledge, and which leads to peace, to direct acquaintance, to discovery, to nibbana." Gautama Buddha from the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.
I am removing both and invite comments on the matter below. Rentwa 14:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have also removed a see also link to the Third way which has nothing at all to do with the Middle Way. Rentwa 09:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Orthodoxy

message: Over the last day and a half, I expanded this article to the point of nearly re-writing it.  Up until yesterday, the article had the following text:
:The Middle Way or Middle Path (Sanskrit Madhyama Marga, Pali Majjhima Magga) is the Buddhist philosophy expounded by Gautama Buddha. Sometimes summarised as the practice of non-extremism; a path of moderation away from the extremes of self-indulgence and opposing self-mortification. This path was first articulated by the Buddha in the second verse of his first discourse, the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.
Right now, the article looks like this.
Honestly, in my mind, when I've passed over this article in the past, I felt this initial text was sufficient and did not feel compelled to do any massive editing.  But then, during the last week, I saw the above text doubled in size due to a retreat-center advertisement and associated text that, from the stance of Buddhism's 2500 year tradition, misappropriated the concept of "Middle Way" for a non-Buddhist meditation practice reportedly developed last century. So, to put it nicely, I decided that the best way to address such a misrepresentation of this core Buddhist concept was to expand this article with accurate (to the degree I'm capable and inclined to do) information that proportionally represents this 2500-year-old concept.  (Though, admittedly, I'm embarrassingly weak on Mahayana/Vajrayana material.  I'd be grateful for any intelligent expansion of this pitiful section.)
In so doing, against my editorially conservative instincts (that is, I try to avoid changing what others have justifiably written), I significantly rewrote the above original text.  Here, I want to explain why I felt it was important to do so.
1. Changing "(Sanskrit Madhyama Marga, Pali Majjhima Magga)" to "(Skt.: madhyamā-pratipad; Pali: majjhimā patipadā)"
::Frankly, I intuited that the Pali for "Middle Way" was also "Majjhima Magga" (probably because of "ariya aṭṭhangika magga," the Noble Eightfold Path) but I checked the Dhammacakka Sutta and the PED and two other Buddhist dictionaries and they all say that it's actually: madhyamā-pratipad and majjhimā patipadā.  The PED also indicates that "patipada" is a synonym for "magga" but, in the seminal sutta, it was patipada that was used.  (If I find a sutta that mentions "majjhima magga" then I'll add it back in.)  
2. Eliding "expounded by Gautama Buddha"
::I'm not sure that the Madhyamaka (or even the Zen) notions of "Middle Way" can be traced back to the Buddha but, instead to Nagarjuna.  Thus, I moved the attribution to the Buddha to the Theravada-specific section.
3. Changed "Sometimes summarised" to "In general"
::The introductory paragraph, especially after the recent major expansion, is necessarily a summary, thus to explicitly state so is redundant.  Additionally, the stated summary does not need to be qualified by "sometimes" -- it has universal applicability and is supported by Kohn (1991).  The phrase "In general" was additionally added to contrast with the next paragraph's phrase, "More specifically."
4. Changed "self-indulgence" to "sensual indulgence"
::This better aligns with the actual Pali (kama [senses] vs. atta [self]).  Moreover, when we look at Buddhist concepts such as attachment, I think it is more meaningful to talk specifically about the pleasure-creating six sense bases instead of an abstract notion of "self."
5. Elided "Buddhist philosophy"
::I think this might be the most controversial edit.  What ultimately led to my removing this was that, after making all the aforementioned changes, the term "Buddhist philosophy" appeared onerous and somewhat redundant.  Moreover, frankly, I believe that many Theravada Buddhists might balk at this Western terminology since the Pali canon's "Middle Way" is really about finding happiness and liberation (perhaps more "Buddhist psychology," although even that misses the mark) as opposed to an attempt to articulate universal metaphysical truths.  I was hoping that as long as I left the Category "Buddhist philosophical concepts" at the bottom of the page, people who are inclined to view this "philosophically" won't mind this deletion.
6. Moved information regarding the Dhammacakka Sutta
::This was text I added to the singular initial paragraph back in mid-November (though I subsequently saw that another editor attempted to add similar information previously).  Because this information is specific to the Nikayas, I moved this to a subsection in the expanded article (which I subsequently saw was in line with Rentwa's prior recommendation).
I think this covers it. Any questions or protests or feedback, please let me know here or on my talk page.  Thanks.  With metta, LarryR (talk) 04:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent article expansion 

message: I just re-capitalized the first letters of "Middle Way" and "Middle Path" because this is the way these phrases appear in the referenced source texts by Harvey (2007) and Dhamma (1997), respectively.  Also a quick review of the first few pages of a Google search on "Middle Way" suggests that majority of non-WP, Buddhism-related pages capitalize this phrase's initial letters (although this is far from universal).  So, while I think this article should maintain capitalization of the initial letters, I'm wondering if this means that this article should be moved over the redirect :Middle Way?  Thanks for any feedback, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 20:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Middle Way" vs. "Middle way" 

message: Based on the aforementioned search of the SLTP Pali Canon for majjhimā paipadā, the following suttas were identified:
* Mv I, 6, 17-18 (English trans.) - same as SN 56.11
* MN 3 (Eng. trans.) - again equates majjhimā paipadā with the Noble Eightfold Path (though does not identify why the "Middle Path" uses the word "middle," i.e., between what antipodes)
* MN 139 (Eng. trans.) - an elaboration on SN 56.11's core text regarding majjhimā paipadā (as well as other things)
* SN 42.12 (Eng. trans., SLTP 41.1.12) - includes SN 56.11's core text regarding majjhimā paipadā followed by an elaboration on praiseworthy and reproachable aspects of a lay and ascetic lives.
* SN 56.11 (e.g., Harvey, 2007) - the touchstone text re: middle path between lives of sense-pleasure and self-mortification, instantiated by the Noble Eightfold Path.
* AN 3.157 - 3.163(?) (Eng. trans.; in SLTP Pali, starting at 3.6.1) - In general, as with SN 56.11 and the other suttas, it defines majjhimā paipadā as the middle path between indulging in sensual pleasures (which in this translation is referred to as "the hard way") and self-mortification ("the wasting away method," somewhat graphically described).  The first sutta of this group then identifies the middle path with the the four satipatthana (in Pali, 1st para.); the second sutta (SLTP 3.6.2) with the Four Right Exertions; and so on, including what appears to be all seven sets of the Bodhipakkhiyadhamma -- in other words, culminating (SLTP 3.6.7) in the Noble Eightfold Path.
There are two references to the Visuddhimagga in the above-mentioned La Trobe U. search.  While I'm late for an important call right now, I'll look into those Vsm texts in the next couple of hours -- perhaps these will provide the expected link between the Theravada and Mahayana conceptuatlizations....  With metta, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 20:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Canonical instances of ''majjhimā pa{{IAST|ṭ}}ipadā''

message: Given the latter citation in the Visuddhimagga and Harvey's text (is it possible Harvey based his text on the Visuddhimagga regarding this and simply extrapolated back to the Suttapitaka?), in the next two days, I'll try to change this article's intro (and other text) so that it does not suggest a dichotomy as it does now.  Or, of course, Peter or anyone else, feel free to do so before/in tandem with me.
Peter, was this what you were getting at?  If so, thanks for pointing the way.  Otherwise, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.  Thanks again (GTG),
Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 21:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Partly as suggested above, I've added text that identifies that in the Pali commentaries (Spk., Vsm.) the term "Middle Way" is used to refer to dependent origination's path through eternalism and annihilationism; and, I've modified the intro to show that this viewpoint is not only part of Mahayana/Vajrayana views but also this later Pali literature.  I hope this is satisfactory.  With metta, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 04:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is four years old, and I don't want to resurrect a zombie but eternalism is a misnomer. Please look at the extensive discussion that includes this point at Talk:Madhyamaka (20040302 (talk) 18:17, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Okay, Peter, you're right!

message: During fruitful on-going talk-page discussion with Mitsube, the idea of more extensively quoting from Bhikkhu Bodhi in order to better contextualize SN 12.15 has come up.  To allow for this possibility, as well as to allow for others to assess the elision decisions I made when including Bodhi's text in an end note to this article, I'm including here the whole two paragraphs that Bodhi includes in his "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Chapter IX, pp. 315-316, regarding SN 12.15 (a similar statement by Bodhi can be found in his translation of the "Samyutta Nikaya," 2000, pp. 521-522):
:Several suttas hold up dependent origination as a 'teaching by the middle' (majjhena tathgato dhamma deseti).  It is a 'teaching by the middle' because it transcends two extreme views that polarize philosophical reflection on the human condition.  One extreme, the metaphysical thesis of eternalism (sassatavda), asserts that the core of human identity is an indestructible and eternal self, whether individual or universal.  It also asserts that the world is created and maintained by a permanent entity, a God or some other metaphysical entity.  The other extreme, annihilationism (ucchedavda), holds that at death the person is utterly annihilated.  There is no spiritual dimension to human existence and thus no personal survival of any sort.  For the Buddha, both extremes pose insuperable problems.  Eternalism encourages an obstinate clinging to the five aggregates, which are really impermanent and devoid of a substantial self; annihilationism threatens to undermine ethics and to make suffering the product of chance.
:Dependent origination offers a radically different perspective that transcends the two extremes.  It shows that individual existence is constituted by a current of conditioned phenomena devoid of a metaphysical self yet continuing on from birth to birth as long as the causes that sustain it remain effective.  Dependent origination thereby offers a cogent explanation of the problem of suffering that on the one hand avoids the philosophical dilemmas posed by the hypothesis of a permanent self, and on the other avoids the dangers of ethical anarchy to which annihilationism eventually leads.  As long as ignorance and craving remain, the process of rebirth continues; kamma yields its pleasant and painful fruit, and the great mass of suffering accumulates.  When ignorance and craving are destroyed, the inner mechanism of karmic causation is deactivated, and one reaches the end of suffering in .  Perhaps the most elegant exposition of dependent origination as the 'middle teaching' is the famous Kaccnagotta Sutta, included here as Text IX,4(4)(d). [Boldface in original.]
If one is inclined to include more of this text in this article, it's fine with me, though I think the material not currently included goes beyond what is called for in this article.  With metta, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 02:22, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you very much for this quote. Harvey says: It can thus be said that, while an empirical self exists - or rather consists of a changing flow of mental and physical states which neither unchangingly exists nor does not exist - not metaphysical Self can be apprehended. page 33 of The Selfless Mind. Then, "It is a curious fact that the early Suttas see even Annihilationism, which the Buddha equated with denial of s/Self, as tied up with belief in a Self." (page 39 of The Selfless Mind.) I think that that is a key idea and explains the Sabbasava Sutta's warning against thinking "I have no self." It explains why he did not flat-out say "there is no self" also, though he did say that self "cannot be apprehended" which has a different shade of meaning. Harvey seems to agree with TB to some extent: One uses 'not-Self', then, as a reason to let go of things, not to 'prove' that there is no Self. There is no need to give some philosophical denial of 'Self'; the idea simply withers away, or evaporates in the light of knowledge, when it is seen that the concept does not apply to anything at all, or, as the Suttas put it, when it is seen that everything is 'empty' of Self. A philosophical denial is just a view, a theory, which may be agreed with or not. It does not get one to actually examine all the things that one really does identiy with, consciously or unconsciously, as Self or I. I think that other people who thing that "atta" is in the Buddha's thought a philosophical "no-go" area have also missed the point. I will add this material in some form at some point. Mitsube (talk) 06:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note 13 (Bodhi, 2005, p. 315) 

message: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=middle+way+Gautama&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=title&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=all&hl=en
--58.38.43.67 (talk) 03:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  I'm supprised that little info about.... 

message: The introduction used the following metaphor of a triangle to present the Middle Way. 
:The middle path does not mean a mid point in a straight line joining two extremes represented by points. The middle path represents a high middle point, like the apex of a triangle. Thus the high middle point is more value filled than a mere compromise.
That first sentence about not meaning a "mid point" is okay, but I disagree strongly with the characterization of a "high middle point" as a better term.  This "high middle point" immage is just another version of the error of a "mid point." The characterization of the Middle Way as a triangular apex is really a "third way" image not a Middle Way image. 
The traditional image of the Middle Way is the lute string that won't produce a harmonious sound when it is tuned either too loose or too tight. In some stories hearing a lute player on a boat was the real life experience that opened up the meaning of the Middle Way to Buddha as he sat by the river.   
As the image of the tuned lute string indicates, the Middle Way is dynamic, not static as suggested by a "high middle point" image.  
Based on these concerns I've edited the above sentences to read:
:The middle path does not mean a mid point in a straight line joining two extremes represented by points. The Middle Way is a dynamic teaching as shown by the traditional story that the Buddha realized the meaning of the Middle Way when he sat by a river and heard a lute player in a passing boat and understood that the lute string must be tuned neither too tight nor too loose to produce a harmonious sound.
  
(Gregory Wonderwheel (talk) 18:35, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Issue With The Triangle Metaphor 

message: This phrase is capitalized as "Middle Way" almost universally, both here at Wikipedia and in other sources.  I propose to move this page to Middle Way (over the redirect that exists there).  I believe it was created with a lowercase 'w' by accident and this accident should be fixed. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move 

message: This article has been edited entirely on the assumption that the concept of the Middle Way must be described and verified in traditional Buddhist terms. However, the Middle Way is also a philosophical and practical idea that can be understood universally, in terms beyond the Buddhist tradition. It happens to have been articulated and promoted by the Buddhist tradition, but that doesn't mean that it should be understood solely in those terms. By way of comparison, the concept of love is central to Christian tradition, and this point would be noted in any article about Christian doctrine. However, if someone added a section that was not referred to Christian sources in an article on love, it would not be justifiable to delete it just on those grounds. I expect that if I were to add a section on the Middle Way beyond the Buddhist tradition to this article, which even defines the concept solely in terms of traditional Buddhism, it would be deleted by the other contributors. But the Middle Way is no more the monopolistic property of the Buddhist tradition than love is solely the property of Christianity.Evenbalance (talk) 15:13, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Objections to assumptions made in this article 

message: I'm not a personal friend of Mr. Hawk, but I suspect that the assertion in the first sentence of the paragraph under "Noble Eightfold Path" is inaccurate. As of 1/14/2015 it reads:
"The term Middle Way was used in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, the first teaching that Tony Hawk delivered after his awakening."
There is a citation to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samyutta_Nikaya, which doesn't mention Hawk. 
I'm posting to request that someone with more knowledge or Wikipedia editing experience than myself rectify this humorous falsehood. If I were to edit it myself, I'd probably just replace Tony Hawk with "Jolly old Buddha" which is probably just as bad.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.160.151.53 (talk) 08:26, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I have removed it.  JimRenge (talk) 08:39, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tony Hawk 

message: This edit revrted my re-ordering of the info in this article. I see no rationale for having two sections on Mahayana, not for including a section called "Common Elements of Buddhism" which is about elements from the Theravada Pali canon and Theravada Buddhism. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:44, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert 

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