Talk:Thích Nhất Hạnh/Archive 2

message: There have been attempts in the past to add information on TNH's teachings, but they have been removed due to neutrality issues. However, the potential remains to include information about his teachings in an objective way, presenting both the positive and negative responses to them, his impact on Western Buddhism, etc. Nightngle 13:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thich Nhat Hanh's teachings 

message: What are the superscripted numbers in the IPA prounciation? — goethean ॐ 19:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Presumably they indicate tone.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 08:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA 

message: * I've created footnotes for the page and will work on learning how to and adding "References". Seems like more references are needed to support the statements. I've got some good references to add, so I'll track those down. What else should be done/added? - Nightngle 15:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Are we ready to apply for "Featured Article Status"?

message: * Creating a "person data" box - done
* Creating a "Info box biography"
**I'm not very happy with the looks of this box; I think there needs to be a temple for an infobox for Buddhist teachers. I'll propose that at the Buddhism Portal.
**I've created a Template:Infobox Buddhist teacher - this may change if the folks at the Buddhism project feel changes are needed to make it more universal across schools, but it's a start
* Minor details for links, spaces, and dates
* Expanding the lead so that it provides an overview of the article
* Add section on TNHs Teaching
* Review footnotes to be sure citations are done correctly and are consistent
* Work on the quality of the writing
**I tried reading the article out loud to see how it sounds, and there are some areas where the flow is a bit choppy.
The suggestions so far are very helpful - Thanks! Nightngle 14:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestions and to-do list:

message: I removed these some time ago because no-one could tell me what they were. can we add some clarifying link or note to the IPA entry? — goethean ॐ 20:52, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  unicode markers 

message: One can read there that Thich Nhat Hanh has got two children together with Sister Chan Khong. The reference is a book written by another Vietnamese person. Have you ever heard about that?
Austerlitz 88.72.12.205 20:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't heard about this claim, but thank you for adding this to the talk page so we can explore it. I can not read German, but do have contacts within the Order of Interbeing who are Vietnamese and could translate the Vietnamese text. The bottom line however, is the quote above that is Wiki policy: "Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous." Claiming that a monk who requires celebacy of his order has children out of wedlock would be a scandalous claim. It would also mean that TNH broke his root vows and is no longer a monk. Any claim, made by a Vietnamese person or not, would still need to be one that is verifiable and reliable. I do realize that Wikipedia articles are not about researching to find "the truth", but reporting what's out there, but I don't think that should include every idea that someone decides to put out there. If this turns out to be something both TNH and Sister Chan Khong verify (I would think that their children would be difficult to hide from the world), then it would be notable and should be included. While I do have a bias, I study TNHs teachings, I have worked hard to remain objective in working on this article. I certainly won't object to this claim's inclusion if it is proven true, however, I will certainly delete any inclusions of it until it meets the standards for inclusion in Wikipedia articles about living persons.Nightngle 22:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have any problems with believing that and I would not judge it to be scandalous. Their children would not be difficult to hide from the world, they could easily live as monk and nun in Plum Village, for example. The information was: They have two children together, a son named Tri Nhat (born in 1969) and a daughter named Tri Nguyet (reference, book "Giac Thay Chua" written by "Dang Van Nham). In case you want to delete this information from the Talk page, too, please try to find out by yourself, given the personal contacts you have. Austerlitz 88.72.11.82 10:24, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The info I've gathered so far is that the person who makes this claim is somewhat notorious in writing exposés about famous Vietnamese people. But while you don't find it scandalous, it most certainly is, since monks and nuns take vows of celebacy and are not considered to still be monks or nuns if they violate a root vow, which this is. At any rate, I'll continue to look into this, but not much verification is to be found at this point. It's fine that the discussion remains here for objectivity sake. Nightngle 23:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be best if you could ask Thich Nhat Hanh and Sister Chan Khong themselves. I think they will not lie to you about it. In case it should be true, it would be time for the children to be recognized with their existence,not having to hide anymore; I think. Austerlitz 88.72.28.167 19:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can assure you that this is a false claim - TNH and Sister Chan Khong do not have children together.Nightngle 23:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I said that I would contact a member of the Order of Interbeing, and that's exactly what I did. They know about this claim, have read the book, and refute this as false. It is something that the Order believes is best ignored, since giving this kind of thing attention tends to stir things up instead of calming things down. You need to understand that not all Vietnamese people like or appreciate TNH. Even though he has explained numerous times that he did not take either side during the war, some Vietnamese believe that his efforts for peace supported the communists. There is a Vietnamese writer who is a contributer to a scholarly work on Buddhism, who added a chapter on Vietnamese Buddhism and claimed that TNH is not ordained to teach and that his teachings have nothing to do with Vietnamese Buddhism. Neither of these claims is true either, but it didn't stop him from making these false statements. I'm not sure why you're so ready to believe this claim of TNH having children, but this page is about an encyclodedic article about TNH and must be factual. This remains an unsubstantiated claim and at this point, we've said all we need to say about it. Nightngle 00:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have liked to read a translation of the lines of the book referring to that claim. I can imagine that not all Vietnamese people like or appreciate TNH. That's another point, though. I would like to know because for me this is a matter of trusting. Things can happen because of love not matching some rules, but hiding the truth means not being trustworthy. Austerlitz 88.72.28.201 13:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The people I talked to have read the book. I will be getting the book and will translate it myself and will report here. You can order the book, too, you know. It's interesting to me that you trust the author of this book and are ready to believe this claim, yet believe that TNH is hiding the truth. Why not the other way around? At any rate, a claim like this can not stay "secret" for long (if it were true, imagine people in their 30's "hiding" out, especially among the 800+ people who visit Plum Village every retreat season!). However, this is not the point - this article is an encyclopedic one, not an exposé. Perhaps you should consider attending a retreat at Plum Village - not only could you ask the questions you have, you'd certainly benefit from learning more about the practice, whatever answer you get. Nightngle 16:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  German wikipedia about Thich Nhat Hanh 

message: The Statue of Responsibility article and the Statue of Responsibility Foundation attribute the idea to Victor Frankl.  If the quote about the Statue of Responsibility is accurate, I think it gives a misleading impression that the statue was Nhat Hahn's idea.  --65.148.145.66 16:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for pointing this out. I have replaced the quote. Although the previous quote was sourced and found on the PBS website , it does give the impression that the idea was TNH's as opposed to him referencing the work of Frankl. The source article is not clear, so I'm glad this was pointed out so that it doesn't give the wrong impression. I've added a new quote which is more clearly TNH's ideas and words. Nightngle 22:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statue of Responsibility 

message: (copied from my talk page)
It seems that you or someone has erased the reference to Thay as a Zen Master. I have re-inserted it.
At the time that I did all the research for this article last spring I was in contact with Sister Annabel, Brother Phap Nguyen, Brother Phap Bi, and, through them, with Sister Chan Khong. At the time it seemed quite clear as to what the question was, and it seemed quite clear as to what Sister Chan Khong's answer was.
In any case the direct authority is Thay himself, who signs our ordination papers as "Dhyana Master ... of the Lam Te Dhyana School". If this is not so, then why doesn't Thay sign the certificates as "Dharmacharya ... of the Lam Te Dhyana School"?
Several comments about the discussion in the archives:
1. The paper by Nguyen and Barber, in the book edited by Prebish: I have this book in front of me, as I also had it last spring when I was doing this research. Nguyen and Barber interviewed two Vietnamese clerics, from which they derived the statement, "In contrast, Thich Nhat Hanh, though he was never known as a Ch'an master in Vietnam, has become known as a famous master in the West." From this some people have gotten the meaning that Thay was never received Dharma transmission. Since Thay received Dharma Transmission on May 1, 1966, just 10 days before he left Vietnam both sides of this issue can be literally correct. Thay was not widely known as a Ch'an master in Vietnam because he wasn't named as one until just before he left Vietnam. Nguyen and Barber's statement is literally true though it has been widely misinterpreted to mean much more than it says.
2. The archives contain a statement that the Plum Village web site contains no reference to Thay as a Zen Master. This is simply not true. Let me say that again, simply not true. Look for example at http://www.plumvillage.org/howToHelp.htm in the second paragraph. More to the point is the wonderful paper by Thay Phap Dung, "A Letter to Friends About Our lineage", which refers to Thay as a Zen Master and gives our lineage back for 8 generations of Zen Masters.
This is the first time I have looked at the Wikipedia since our discussion last summer. It made me literally sick to my stomach that people could be so destructive, seemingly just on a whim, such as the fellow who seemed to vow to erase all copies in the world of the phrase "Zen Master", or even worse, the many parties who act out of jealousy or political anger against Thay.
Bert Mayo, Chân Tuê. An, Order of Interbeing
:Bert, I'm moving this discusion to this page where it is more appropriate. I want to address some of your points.
:# The term Zen Master is a tricky one. There really isn't an ordination that bestows this title on a person in our school. This makes use of the term in an encyclopedia article about TNH a bit iffy. I have put the term in the "Names applied to him" section of the article, attributed to the laingmai.org site using that term in Vietnamese. I think it's most appropriately mentioned in that section, and we can certainly add the information that TNH signs documents "Dhyana Master" to that section.
:# I am going to revert your edit, though, because the comment you've added isn't verifiable. Being given lamp transmission is to become a Dharmacharya or Dharma teacher, that is not the same as "Zen Master". Now, if you have a citation that can clear that distinction up, that would be most interesting and we could then include that. However, as a member of the Order yourself (as am I - my Dharma name is Chan Lac An), you know that members of the order, lay and monastic, receive lamp transmission from Thay and are Dharmacharyas. Do we call those folks Zen Masters? No, actually, we don't - and I think there would be quite the uproar if any of the Dharmacharyas called themselves Zen Masters, don't you?
:# Part of the controversy, especially as outlined in the Prebish book, is also about TNH's authority to start his own order, ordain monks and nuns, etc. In fact, Thay has said that he did not have permission to start the Order of Interbeing, but he did it anyway. These distinctions and details are not well documented nor understood, even by monastics in our own order. I think that until we have more information that is documented, we need to shy away from this material in this Wikipedia article. It's going to be difficult to unearth that info, though, especially since we really don't have a good history of the OI that has been fact checked past the memories (and the biases) of our members.
:# It's interesting to me that you attribute the motivations of the folks in the past discussion about the "Zen Master" term as jealousy or malice. Wanting verifiable facts isn't a bad thing, and omitting terms that can't be clarified isn't a problem, either. The bottom line is that this page is an encyclopedia article on Wikipedia and needs to play by their rules just like every other article. I do have a personal bias in favor of TNH and the Order, and while that generally is frowned upon, I have done all I can to be neutral and stick with the rules. I've had the article peer reviewed by two different Wiki Projects to double check my work, and do watch the article closely. Not only do I want the article to have a neutral point of view, I believe it's imperative for it to be scrupulously researched and verifiable with outside sources. The last thing I want to see happen is some mythology evolve around TNH and the Order - that's a recipie for Thay's wonderful teachings to become discounted because of claims that can't be proven.
*I'll leave you a note on your user page, too - there is going to be an OI wiki site that I can direct you to. Those pages can be edited to say whatever the OI members want them to say, so they will have a very different look and feel to them. You may be much happier editing those pages instead of Wikipedia.
Thank you for your comments, and I hope you understand my point of view - if not, please feel free to continue the discussion here, and if need be, we can ask for peer review from the Buddhist Project and/or Biography Project. Nightngle 15:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Zen Master discussion