Talk:Chabad/Archive 5

message: :Might a new observer that stumbled upon this offer a small, tiny attempt at a bridge?
The way I see it, the argument here is not about the Chabad theology so much as how the theology is understood. In parts, this does remind me of obscure Catholic and generally Christian doctrinal controversies, as what is being argued over is based upon text that can be really, really misunderstood without trying very hard. :-)  Now, it links fairly quickly into a critical question of what such an article on WP hopes to achieve. IMHO, it would be helpful to put it forth as such:
"Chabad theology states X."
Then, we say, "This is what Chabadniks say that means."
Next, we say, "But, this is what other people say."
Personally, in an article that should be an overview of Chabad Lubavitch, it would seem profitable to judiciously leave aside such knotty theological controversies. It deserves a separate article, IMHO. --Penta 16:15, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a fine suggestion, but it seems to me that the article already does this.  A problem is that Pinchas and PhatJew seem absolutely convinced that other Jews agree with what Chabadniks say (even though this is just not so).  They seem totally sure that their interpretations of Hasidic texts about rebbes and tzaddiks are mainstream.  The problem, however, is that their view is rejected by other Orthodox Jews, including other Hasidic Jews.  So we are obligated to report on the fact that the rest of Orthodoxy finds these Chabad ideas incorrect. RK 17:33, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
I believe that Penta is correct, this entire part should be in an article entitled Judaism's view of a Tzadik, and then you can quote all those sources and how everyone interprets them (if they do actually interpret them differently than chabad, which has not been shown at all)--PinchasC 22:45, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

text: This article is about Lubavitch's views, not about Judaism's views.  They are not synonymous. Jayjg (talk) 00:35, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

text: The contrasts and divisions between Lubavitch and other Jewish groups are relevant here. Jayjg (talk) 02:08, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Claims on the talk: page that all Hasidim believe as Lubavitch do have not been backed up by any sources stating the same. Jayjg (talk) 15:59, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Co-operation will be easy to obtain; just find some other modern-day Chassidic groups which espouse the same beliefs. Jayjg (talk) 16:34, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: There has not been movement because you have stuck with your unproven statements, and that tag isn't silly, if you don't like it you can vote that it should be deleted.--PinchasC 09:32, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A tiny attempt at a bridge... 

message: I would like to propose based on some previous comments that a new article be started explaining Judaisms view of Holiness or start a new section in Holiness in which it will discuss in detail this entire controversy of what chabad and other Jews do or don't believe about them. And to link from chabad and Hasidic Judaism Breslov etc. to there if a difference is shown. Please add your thoughts. Thanks. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 14:24, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How about Tzadik? JFW | T@lk 14:32, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Tzadik is a disambiguation page, but maybe Tzaddik --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 14:33, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: New article on Judaisms view of holy people

message: By the grace of G-d
Greetings and blessings. 
I have edited the links section to add few Mashichist sites to give a greater range  of Chabad views on the issue of identity of Moshiach and the proccess of redemption. While I realize Wikipedia is not a link list I feel that all those sites should be included. I have also moved the "Breif history of Chabad Messianism"  to the historical sites section from it's original location in the Chabad Messianic sites section since it's not a Mashichist propaganda, but the author of the article simply presents an overview of the development of the Moshiach identification campaign within Chabad and further states elsewhere on his site that he doesn't believe the Rebbe is Moshiach therefore it obviously doesn't belong in the Chabad Messianic sites section.
I have also added the http://www.YudelKrinsky.com as satire is just another way to convey information and studying it creates a clearer picture about the issue in the mind of a serious Wikipedia reader.
With respect and blessing.
Ariel Sokolovsky 13:41, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV editing

message: I have created a new article that deals with the concept of a Tzadik, and merged the contents of the "Relationship between God, the Rebbe and his followers" section into it. Therefore if there is consensus I will be removing the section from here and replace it with a link to Tzadik. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 15:56, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The information is relevant to this article, not that one.  The information here is specifically about Chabad beliefs, not the general concept of Tzadik. Jayjg (talk) 18:06, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't think it should be removed from here, since the way (at least some of) Chabad chassidim interpret this concept differs radically from the way mainstream chassidim (and perhaps mainstream chabad) do. Therefore, even if you do create another page devoted to the concept of the Tzadik in Judaism, this paragraph must remain here. -- Nahum 03:45, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Mea culpa. I was thinking about the messianism subsection. -- Nahum 06:43, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Well, after rereading this, I came to a conclusion that there are differnces within the Chabad movement about how to interpret this issue. Some of them interpret it too literally to be compliant with Jewish belief in a non-corporeal G-d. -- Nahum 06:53, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

text: They are not just a few and neither do I base my knowledge on Berger. I've discussed these issues with some Chassidim while the Rebbe OBM was still alive and heard it "from the horse's mouth." -- Nahum 07:05, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

text: It is relevant to this sub-sectiona as well. Perhaps it needs a bit editing, but it cannot be removed, since this is a critical aspect of Chabad's beliefs. -- Nahum 07:11, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

text: But this article, as opposed to the one you suggest to be moved to, deals with Chabad. Which is where this issue belongs. You can elaborate as much as you want in the Tzadik article and add a reference here to there, but without removing the current subsection from its current location. -- Nahum 07:19, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Let's hear other people's views. -- Nahum 07:31, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

text: It seems to me that these two are completely seperate paragraphs, one adding the Rebbe commenting about a tzadik for general discussion, and one with the Rebbe (and his relationship with God) specifically. Leave them as they are. There is no need to point from this page to Tzadik. However, the "This has been taken literally..." seems a bit out of place on the tzadik page, as it is barely a notable opinion (albeit, a disturbing one) for that page and would fit more on the Chabad article (if anywhere). SF2K1 05:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Relationship between God, the Rebbe and his followers

message: I would like to make a point about some of the external links here. For example the link to "JewishWomenUnited" which is a relatively small site or "Messiah Watch International" which is more of a personal site as opposed to an orgainzation. Basically my point is that perhaps the list should be trimmed down to major organizations. I'm looking forward to hearing other peoples viewpoints on this.--PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 05:34, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: External Links

message: Pinchas is not being truthful about his new version of the Chabad article, which he claims was developed through consensus.  In point of fact, over the last few months Pinchas deleted consensus texts, and created an incredible text in which Schneeron's new theology about a tzaddik is somehow accepted by all Jews as mainstream.  Many of us, including me, Jayjg and JFW, discussed this issue at length some months ago, and we found Pinchas's claims to be both incorrect and a violation of Wikipedia's NPOV policy.  Furthermore:
* Pinchas somehow removed the important statements by Orthodox Jews who disagree with Chabad, and left only statements by a couple of Conservative Jews (whose views on theology have little weight in the Orthodox community!)
* Elizer keeps removing the condemnation of Chabad messianic by the Rabbinical council of America, and by heads of Orthodox yeshivas. Censorship of Orthodox Jewish points of view is unacceptable.
* His edit grossly misled readers about the statements of Dr. Moshe Idel. Pinchas's edit presents Dr. Idel as defending Chabad messianism, while in fact Idel describes Chabad messianic beliefs as "stupid".
* Pinchas keeps reverting to make Rabbi David Berger sound line a non-rabbi ("Mr."), and his edits make it appear as if most people disagree with Berger.  In point of fact, Rabbi Berger was the driving force behind the RCA's statement condemning Chabad theology, and R. Berger's statements are the same as the statements of many other Orthodox rabbis...which no one will ever know, as Pinchas keeps deleting them.
It seems to me that while we have been busy on a host of other issues, Pinchas has been slowly manipulating this article to push his own personal theology, while removing facts that he is uncomfortable with, thus violating NPOV. RK 23:25, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of it amounts to apologitics. This would be okay with sources. E.g. if Berger says some worship the Rebbe as G'd incarnate, and the article states "this is in direct contradiction to Chabad philosophy and has been subject of doubt" then both assertions need sourcing. The Berger one is easy (page number in book), but the (?hypothetical) Chabad response would be {{WP:NOR|original research]] if not supported by a source. JFW | T@lk 23:37, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pinchas's manipulation of the Chabad article