Talk:Nair/Archive 6

message: I can't see why people are removing this fully cited paragraph I inserted. 
"Samyogasuktha a presecriptive treatise on sex written claimedly by Kunchumakkool Kurupu of Kadathanad (believed to have lived in the second half of the seventeenth and first half of the eighteenth centuries throws much light in to the sexual life of Nair community. (Samyogasuktha, Vinjanamudralayam Press, Kunnamkulam, 1942). Kindred marriage acceptable among Nairs are confined to strictly spelt out patterns. For example a cousin on the maternal side is a suitable groom for a Nair girl while a cousin on the paternal side  at one remove is not. The treatise in conformity with Kamasutra differentiates women into four categories, hastini (elephantine woman), samkhini (woman with conch shaped vulva), chitrini (picteresque beauty), pathmini (lotus woman, with reference to genitalia). This division is called Nayikajathi Chathushtayam (four types of heroines).  The book describes the way how to do intercourse with each of these types. While chitrini has to be enjoyed during the first yama of the night samkhini asks for coitus during the third yama of the night. Hastini with broad hips and deep vagina needs to be enjoyed in dhenuka (milching cow position) position for fuller enjoyment. Unlike Kamasutra which is ambiguous on this score, Samyogasuktha  explicitly mentions anal sex. Pathmini is the purest and chastest of the four types. She is not sensually given to by nature. It is the male privilege to enjoy her in every conceivable way."
It is to be noted that the article deals with puberty rites, marriage customs etc at some length. So, the sexual life is well fitting here. It is usual for an encylopediac article to mention sexual mores when the ethos and customs of a social group are described. I plan to write an article on Samyogasuktha. But I am looking for information on the first edition edited by Pachumoothathu (a famous Malayalam grammarian). I request others to comment on the inappropriate removal of valid content from the article. M.T. Narayanan 16:47, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was one of the people who removed that part. Erm, well my reason is that while it may do good as a separate article, i doubt if we need to see how nairs had sex and how their women were classified in this article. Besides i doubt if this relates to the Nairs alone. It could be included if suitable in the Kamasutra article or something rather than in this article. I am not so sure on seeing a part that goes into details on ways of sex and how women were classed and on what basis and the "male privilege to enjoy her in every conceivable way". For one even if u argue its a work by a nair, it doesnt need mention on the nair page. Secondly dont u think its a little too explicit in details. You dont find articles on other castes stating the ways they had sexual intercourse etc. So i vote for removing that part Manu
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You are very much wrong there. If we have to show how Nairs married, how the observed puberty rites, how they had very strange customs etc. we also have to show their sexual mores. I have often read that Wiki is not censored and for this reason it is in the bad books of totalitarian governments. I request those who are more familiar with procedures here to enlighten me on this aspect. Is Manu right to say that the explicit part is out of place? Please note that the book in its upotgatham (introduction) categorically says that Nairs are to observe the teachings in the book. (Nair section was not mixed and contaminated during those times, as you have them today!) Pachumoothathu is a famous linguist. A book presented by him has to be of high standard. The details in the section is not from Kamasutra. The book belongs to another school that follows Kuchimara maharshi whose work Kuchimarathantra is a great treatise on sex. Pachumoothath's intro makes it clear. You can see his intro in 1942 edtion also. Removing verifiable content without engaging in discussion is not right, I think. I reqest intervention of mods here! M.T. Narayananan
M.T.Narayanan- hope you are n't anyway related to M T Vasudevan Nair-do not have fanciful ideas that sex life can be improved by reading this book and that! I would disagree, strongly. In spite of all that Pachu Moothathu and Kunchumakkool Kurupu had written and said,coitus requires a powerful, virile male member. Females swoon at the sight of one. Keep your tool in good condition, and go ga ga! Got it?Masgunan Mananthavaadi 12:06, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sexual Life 

message: Kerala is a region populated with numerous waves of migrants through out the history. and most of the migration came through  three routes, along the northern and southern coastal routes and the palakkad gap. For the same reason, Its very clear from the culture and even sometimes physical features of the people from different regions of the kerala. Its obvious that people from the same caste doesn't  belong to same group of migrants or ethnic groups. Nairs from southern kerala and central kerala and north kerala belongs to different migratory groups and later referred to a same category or caste name of class name, which is "Nair" according to the socio-political status attained by them in course of history.  This categorization may happened at after the formation of the Chera country as a political entity and class  formation associated within the empair. Most probably Nair groups from the northern kerala is remnants of the migratory groups came along the west coast from north. 
Nairs from the southern kerala may have migrated along the southern gateway from tamil country.   This may be the reason of the practices like famous "kora puzha vilakku", which forbid the north kerala Nair women  from crossing the "kora puzha" to south. 
For these reasons we can speculate that, nairs are a class more than a caste or tribe. It have its tribal or ethnic identity (if it make any sense) only when u come down to the sub caste category. Most probably Kiriyathil Nairs are the  groups which aggressively kept their tribal identity to a certain extend during the course of time. As far I know, at least in northern kerala the marriages or 'sambandhams' were strictly with in the "kiriaams" or "kulams" of same status.   It was not permitted to marry from the same kulams as they all belongs to same related in a brother-sister way. Last 50 years the sub caste identities are completely vanish with the collapse of "marumakathayam". "Sambandham" with the namboothris were in principal absent among Kiriyathil nairs. 
If you look things in a very broad sense, none of this classifications make much sense as its known that a vast majority of  Indians are of  M* haplogroup  mtDNA (passes down along female line) lineage, only very few percentage of the sub continent population have some other mtDNA lineage, which is mostly in pakistan and north western india. On the other hand Y DNA  of different types are observed throughout the subcontinent. 
As Nair caste is not a homogenous group, a  DNA test is the only way to find  the frequency of different Haplogroups among Nairs.
If some one is interested please visit 
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/journey.html
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/nair/
(Crayoz 15:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Caste, Tribe or class??

message: While it is important to class Nairs as either a "caste" or "community", I think that more attention is needed for the article. More information regarding the known origin of Nairs, the mythological origins or Nairs (which may not be true but needs to be shown) and a more detailed history of Nairs, especially regarding their martial history (Kalaripayattu, involvements in wars, etc). Also I have transferred the line regarding Nambuthri definition of Nairs to a more relevant section of the page which is about their status. The introduction already gives the Nair status as warriors and administrators, and it is not necessary to have what the Nambuthris thought of the Nairs (in the introduction), not to mention that the line is not valid completely (Varmas were "Malayala Kshatriya" but basically Nair). On pages like Maratha, Jat, etc. it isn't mentioned that "Brahmins thought of them as Sudra" in the introduction, although it may somewhere else in the article. Especially in Kerala, where no caste properly fits into the Chaturvarna system (except for the Nambuthris), the line is not wholly true.Kshatriyan 23:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nair article/Shudra title in the introduction

message: Just to let everyone know the list of " Famous Nairs " has now been deleted. Voted for for deletion by some insecure lower castes who are so ridden by inferiority complexes that they think merely to write of the accomplishments of a certain community is now " casteism ". These insecure individuals exhibit their nefarious pusillanimous hypocrisy when they don't realise that what they are doing is infact the most casteist thing, since its a prime example of " reverse casteism " since a so called upper caste can no longer write their accomplishments on wikipedia if they do it gets deleted. But whatever the self proclaimed lower castes do is promulgated to the world. The paradox is the list of famous Nairs is now deleted whilst 1000's of other lists remain on Wikipedia including the list of Ezhavas.
So i think it would be wise to amalgamate the whole list into this article. I have a back up of the entire list since me and the user ivygohnair were the main contributors to the list. If anyone is interested i could send them the list or write it here or actually put it into this article. However i'm new to Wikipedia so a little guidance would be a requisite. 
Below is what i originally wrote on the talk pages of the list of Nairs in reply to a lot of users claiming the "list of famous Nairs" was Casteism. However funnily enough no one replied to it addressing the actual content i wrote. Probably because they knew it was all right and could say nothing in return to it. So i decided to paste it all here so that it may at least liberate a few more minds. 
There seems to be a few repugnant people here who are of the contorted and antagonistic view that a list of famous people from an upper caste community or to write about the history of an upper caste community is CASTEISM! What is the world coming to when to merely write the accomplishments of a certain community is now regarded as Casteism. When infact this is a prime example of reverse casteism, a few plebians who wish to squander and hide the accomplishments of a community by attempting to delete the whole list and also deleting names in the list in a clandestine manner without even discussing it, THIS IS REVERSE CASTEISM. For those insecure trolls who regard this page as casteism i suggest you also delete every other list on wikipedia there is a list of famous Rajputs, famous Jats, famous Iyers, Famous Reddys also a list of famous Ezhavas...How come no one has tried to delete the Ezhava list? When a so called forward caste attains something he or she cannot be proud of it because its now considered casteism. But when a scheduled caste person attains something they are happy to promulgate it and scream it to the world and no one has any objections. To be proud of your community IS NOT CASTEISM! For those people who patrol this page and other pages trying their best to denigrate and undermine a community just because in the past they were regarded as " upper caste " to these people i say, attempting to make others look bad does not make you look better it only lowers us all and relegates us to platitudinous ponderosity, and never lets us progress... This in turn is not at all productive for society. So instead of procrastinating and trying to make others look bad, use that time to make your own community better. If we want our nation or state to progress we must all give up this " crab mentality " of trying to drag others down and this applies to everyone of every community Nairs, Ezhavas, Jats, Marathas Brahmins, everyone. Can someone also tell me why the people who bring up "castes" the most are infact the lower castes? Lower castes love to talk about how badly they were treated in the past by upper castes, even after in todays India lower castes are given 100 times more privileges than upper castes reservation is just one example. How many times will people continue to open up the same wounds? How can a wound heal if people tear it open again and again? Why do some people love to talk about how badly upper castes treated lower castes but refuse to talk of the good upper castes did for lower castes. One example would be the majority of freedom fighters in Kerala and India who got India independence were upper caste. In kerala alone the majority of the warriors and armies who defended lower castes and the land were Nairs one example would be "Nair Pattalam" Nair Brigade The army of the king of Kerala which was 99 percent Nair, why else would it be called " Nair Pattalam " translated as army of Nairs. 
When i visit India or Kerala and stay there i am happy to give our servant my bed and i sleep on the floor, I believe all humans are equal, and i have personally worked in village hospitals for months without any pay to help the poor in Kerala, Delhi, Rajasthan. Are these the actions of a person who is casteist? Regardless of caste or colour we write our own destinies...This is exactly why we should be proud of the Indians who accomplish a lot in life regardless of their caste or community and not delete their accomplishments by deleting the list of famous people from that community. It is sad that some people on Wikipedia are still the slaves of the British through their mentalities. Because it was the British that propounded differences between caste and community it was they who divided Indians. Those Indians who continue to divide Indians, unfortunately they continue to be the slaves of the British. Try and emancipate half baked knowledge from your minds, and stop your ignorant divisions and if you wish to know what the real caste system in Hinduism is, read the following article instead of proliferating farces and lies. Fact: Hinduism specifically says Caste is not determined by Birth it is determined by Dharma (your actions), read from an unbiased source http://www.stephen-knapp.com/casteism.htm. Veracious-sojourner 07:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That information will needlessly make the article big. It was also an unverifiable list, which was why it was deleted. --vi5in[talk] 23:12, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Perhaps you could use very notable people, like the first Defense Minister of India (Krishna Menon), or Mohanlal; people like that. But even then you would have issues about "how notable" someone really is. We can't have a huge list in this page because it would make the page rather big. You can work on a new "List of Notable Nairs" page. Put the 95% that you have (with citations) in there. As long as an article is adequately cited and notable, there is no reason it shouldn't exist on wikipedia. --vi5in[talk] 17:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The list of notable/famous Nairs has been deleted (Also information on so called "casteism")