Talk:Christianization of Lithuania

message: I changed last pagan nation to one of the last-see wikipedia article on Mari-El  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.51.95.250 (talk) 20:17, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: What was the religion of Lithuania before it was Christianized?  I'm not seeing any mention of it in either this article or the main Lithuania one...
:I wanted to refer you to Baltic paganism but the page somehow redirects to Estonian mythology, although Estonians are not Balts and their pagan religion had little in common with that of Lithuania... --Ghirla-трёп- 17:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Renata has fixed that redirect.--Lokyz 17:26, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Pagan" is awfully vague... 

message: "...in Lithuanian pagan towns Vilkmergė, Maišiagala, Lyda, Nemenčinė, Medininkai, Krėva, Haina and Abolcy".
Why indulge in fantasies and delirium because of own ingnorancy, instead of being reasonable and thinking a bit? I'm talking about the fact, that present-day Belarusian towns (Krevo, Lida, Haina and Abolcy) are retrospectively made some "pagan Lithuanian towns", a part of some "pagan Lietuva", which has never been clearly depicted, neither seen or witnessed by anyone. Still, I'm not talking here about those towns mentioned, which are in the territory of the present-day Lietuva (Lithuania) - these are Vilkomir (Vilkmerge), Moiszagola, Niemenczyn, and Medniki; although still I'd like to stress that anything like "Vilkmerge" never existed before the 20th century: the name has always been Vilkomir, which is Slavic, as the Lithuanian cronicles witnessed themselves, that it was founded in the 13th century and named because of surrounding wolves ("vilki" in Slavonic). This is what the Lithuanian cronicles themselves say. Remember this. The same applies to Medniki (always known under this name), and the rest... 
But I'm not talking about these now. 
I'm talking about the Belarusian towns. I wonder, whether the one who had written it, all in all realized where these towns are situated, and how could those have been "pagan Lithuanian" (implying "Lithuanian" is the name for the "pagan Baltic folk", which has never been proved true for the Grand Duchy of Lithuania). I mean, Haina is 40 km north of Minsk, a Belarusian city which had been the capital of a duchy from the year 1101, and the centre of a bishopry from mid 12th century. Abolcy lie between Minsk and Polack - another ancient capital, with a diocese and St.Sophia cathedral from 1066 (like in Kyiv). Abolcy lie 80 km west of Vitebsk - an old duchy capital from the 9th century, and with churches from the same age. What do you mean by calling these towns "pagan Lithuanian"? That they, and the neighbourhood, were occupied by "pagan Lithuanians", who were not Slavs and not Christians? What is it for? Is it a kind of agressive expansion into Belarusian territory and history, based upon your own ignorance and agressive fantasies?... For instance, many towns of present-day Lietuva (Lithuania) had many Orthodox churches and parishes of 14th century or even earlier. So, using your logic, why not write that they were a part of "Orthodox Rus", not pagan Lithuania?... If you insist on your "logic", so then can you write something like "pagan Celtic towns 50 km south of Paris in 14th century", or "pagan Celtic towns 50 km north of London in 14th century"? Can you do that? I guess you can, with your rate of boldiness. But thinking, at least a bit, does make sense. You should amend the passage, otherwise the whole section, or even article, needs re-writing. Rasool-3 (talk) 12:02, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Lithuanian pagan towns" 

message: I'll make you see my point clearer (regarding "pagan towns" in Belarus as well). I'll ask you one sole question which cannot be replied within the stupid context of "ethnic Baltic Lietuva" we're now exisiting in. An anonymous user a bit earlier has rightly stressed that we have nothing to be denoted with "Lithuanian paganism". It's not only "vague" - it's, actually, an empty notion. I'll show you this (and with connection to your imaginary "pagan towns" in Belarus as well...). Once you're imagining some "ethnic Baltic paganism" allegedly denoted as "Lithuanian" in 1387, and successfully replaced by Catholicism in 1387 (which should be as well "ethnic Baltic Lithuanian" in the "ethnic Baltic Lithuanian country" which Lithuania allegedly was) - then please tell me, why the language of Lithuanian Catholic church ever since 1387 and at least to the 17th century was Slavonic (church Belarusian), not any Baltic? Were "Baltic Lithuanians" not able to have its own church language, when introducing Catholicism instead of "ethnic Baltic paganism"? Or they decided to introduce Belarusian language in their church, while accepting Catholicism from Poland? What is the solution of this perplexion?... 
Even Poles never claimed, that the language of the Lithuanian Catholic church in 14th - 17th century was Polish (mainly because the Polish language was introduced in the Polish church itself only by mid 16th century). Polish became a dominant language in Lithuania church only by the end of 17th century. So, what was the language of Lithuanian Catholic church before, from 1387 to the 17th century? All documents and every evidence show that it was church Belarusian, the same language that we see in all documents and evidences of all Lithianian nobles, who called it "Lithuanian language". At the same time we, of course, do not have any evidences of any Baltic language (which is now called "Lithuanian") in the Lithuanian Catholic Church, as elsewhere in GDL. The text of GDL Catholic mess (a copy from 15th century) reads: "Какъ ся мша чтеть рымскимъ обычаемъ матце Божией" - this is church Belarusian language, the same we have in Skoryna's books, and in the Lithuanian Statutes, this language was called "Lithuanian" then. King Casimir got an inscription made in a Wawel chapel in 1471 (where he was later buried, in 1492): "К ухвале именя найвышшого Бога Ойца всемогушчого, побудована косцёлу сея каплица, повеленьем великого а преславного Короля, просветного Казимира...", etc. This is again plain then Belarusian language. Every evidence shows that it was the language of mess and every procedure in the Lithuanian Catholic Church from 1387 to at least 17th century. 
First Vilna catholic bishops: Jacob Plychta, Jan's son (1398 - 1407), Nicolaus Dzieszkowicz (1453-1467), Jan Losowicz (1468-1481) and other - all Slavonic names, no any Balts. Documents witnessed that those were Litvins (Lithuanians), not Poles: "Jacobum natum quodam Joannis dicti Plychta, vicarium Lythuanie, eiusdemque nacionis et lingue", "Nicolaus Dzierzgowicz dictus, natione Lituanus", 
"Johannes Lossowicz civilis Vilnensis Lithuanus" etc. There is no any evidence, that Lithuanian Catholic church in 14-17 centuries had any mark of "Baltic ethnicity". What is this riddle? The solution is sole: there was no any "ethnic Baltic folk" called "Lithuanians" before 1387, as well as after, and there was no any "Lithuanian ethnic Baltic paganism" before 1387, as there was no "ethnic Baltic Lithuanian" catholic church thereupon. Because "Lithuanian" was not a name for "ethnic Baltic pagans" before 1387, but for something different. Rasool-3 (talk) 08:29, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Lithuanian paganism" converted into "Lithuanian" catholicism, huh?.. 

message: The Sami of Scandinavia were still practicing their original religion until the 18th century. This would mean that Lithuanians were *not* the last "pagan nation" of Europe to be converted to Christianity, but the second to last. I know some people say that the Sami are an ethnic group rather than a nation, since they didn't have a state society, but I think it can be argued that they are a nation made up of smaller tribes much like Native American nations.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:200:C000:530:5827:692E:5B13:929 (talk) 23:23, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sami were last European group to be converted, not Lithuanians 

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