Talk:Franz Liszt/Archive 1

message: ... "if not the greatest" ...
Regarding Iggy402's removal, on 06:06, 14 November 2006, of "if not the greatest," I see the point about the danger of inserting personal point of view.  However, to say that Liszt is merely "one of the greatest pianists in history," instead of "one of the greatest - if not the greatest - pianists in history," still seems a significant understatement, given extraordinary and credible testimonies of his contemporaries and expert opinions which have followed.  The preponderance of these suggest a distinct possibility that Liszt indeed was the greatest.  For this reason, my insertion on 10:56, 2 November 2006 of the phrase "if not the greatest" seemed reasonable - especially since I still was stopping well short of asserting that he in fact WAS the greatest.  
For this same reason, I applaud K. Lastochka's 23:59, 14 November 2006 contribution, which gives Liszt credit where it is due, more credit than for being merely "one of the greatest" pianists in history.  
Still I believe it is reasonable to point out that he is generally considered to be one of the greatest - if not the greatest - pianists in history.  Again, to say that he merely was "one of the greatest" pianists in history seems an understatement. Bstct 09:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead section

message: Dear wikifriends, in book Franz Liszt, compositeur slovaque (Paperback), Miroslav Benko, L'Age d'Homme Editions (2003), ISBN: 2825117897 is written, that F. Liszt has slovak nationality.
: "Of the other Hungarian 19th century and early 20th century composers, Bartok's place of birth is today in Romania and Dohnanyi's in Slovakia; that of Kodály still remains in the 40% of Hungary which stands as the remnants of the country."
This was removed as it probably shouldn't be here. I thought I'd just save it in case anyone wants something to develop a page on Nationalism in music or even a section on the nationalism page. --Sketchee 01:16, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
:Is Christoph von Dohnányi a composer anyway? The original author may have been referring to his grandfather, if and when that section is written Schissel : bowl listen 03:15, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
To my knowledge, Liszt is commonly referred to as a Hungarian composer, which is an image he helped to promulgate, but I believe that he actually does not have any Hungarian ancestry. He was Austrian. --11/21/05
He was not Austrian, but an ethnic German Hungarian. As he said: "Je suis Hongrois".
According to my knowledge his father Adam Liszt was Slovak since both his parents (Juraj (eng. Georg) List and Barbara Šlesáková) were Slovaks (both his parents and Adam Liszt were speaking slovak as a first language). It implies that he (Franz Liszt) has Slovak German origin and not Hungarian German. He also learned hungarian as a second language and never used it extensively. So to call him hungarian composer is possible only in the context of 19th century since he was born in Austria-Hungary Empire which consisted of Austria, Hungary, Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia, and parts of Poland, Romania, Slovenia, Croatia, and Italy. But to oversimplify and to relate him exclusively to present Hungary now in 21st century is really impropriate. My source is the book "Franz Liszt, compositeur slovaque", author Miroslav Demko, publisher Lausanne : Editions L'âge d'homme, 2003. This book is available in the library of the University of Oxford. I want to ask people really interested in this article to check upon this information. Iambilko 04:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is possible. But what are your sources? I've presented my source and in some way I trust the authority of University of Oxford. I believe they include non-fictional book into their archive after some consideration (and this one is from 2003, relatively new one, so it can present a new discoveries on the subject of Franz Liszt). For instance let's look onto Sándor Petőfi, national hungarian poet, whose father was Serbian and mother was Slovak but because they lived in Austrian Empire (in the Hungary part) he claimed himself as Hungarian since Hungary that time strongly forced other nations to convert themselves to be Hungarian. Any other nation (from the hungarian part of the empire) during that time was strongly oppressed by Hungarians. And these are the facts. And again, I'm not saying that it is true (I mean Slovak German origin of Franz Liszt), but there are new sources which claim something different. And according to the really strong anti-nationalistic politics of the 19th century's Hungary (the fact) I am inclined to believe that this might be the true. Another example is that before the year 1918 many people would say that they are Hungarian and after 1918 they became Serbian, Slovak, Romanian, Pole, Hungarian. And please don't take this personally. I'm just keen to know how is it. Iambilko 22:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear respected colleague, if you have ever read any of Petőfi's poetry you will know that he was not "forced" to "convert himself" to be Hungarian. He was Hungarian, and he was extremely proud of it. He gave his life for Hungary, for God's sake! I don't know how many times I have to say this: in Hungary, nationality and ethnicity are two different things. You can be Magyar Hungarian, Slovak Hungarian, German Hungarian, anything else Hungarian. You just have to call yourself Hungarian, have allegiance and loyalty to Hungary, speak Hungarian (or in Liszt's case make a valiant effort!), and love Hungary as your homeland. I'm sure I've said this before. There are many, many, many great Hungarians whose ethnic origin was not Magyar, but their nationality is SHOULD not be called into question, nor should their loyalty. K. Lástocska 01:02, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just want to throw a few points into the mix. Firstly, the main library in Oxford is a copyright deposit library, they have every book published in the UK. While this book doesn't seem to have been published in the UK, the point still stands that they include many books, no matter their merit. The books in the library are not a reflection of Oxford university therefore, but the person who wrote them. And I for one have never heard of the author in question, so I couldn't comment on her reliability. Anyway, I would be happy enough for the contention that he does have slovak ancestry to be included on the condition that it is mentioned that this is the view of the author above, not mainstream scholarship. It would have to be quoted and referenced properly also. Changing that he is hungarian to slovakian with no reason/source/anything provided is unacceptable. M A Mason 16:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

text: "Austrian Hungarian" I wouldn't accept, it's pretty irrelevant that Austria had control of the region at that time, he was born is the kingdom of Hungary. "German hungarian" I would not accept, because again it's irrelevant what his parents were, he was born in Hungary and identified with the Hungarian people. "german descent" so what? According to scientists if you trace us all back far enough we're of African descent. How far do we go back? 1 generation? 3? 10? Pointless if you ask me, given that he declared himself to be Hungarian. We can't judge his nationality or his views based on the beliefs of today, that's just bad history. K. Lásztocska has shown a number of times here that to be Hungarian means a lot more than just the country you live(d) in, so what if it wasn't free/independant? Whatever that actually means. M A Mason 16:10, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationism 

message: Audio sample- in the media sample, what's Au bord d'une? (Resolves to download that audio sample soon, but if it turns out to be Au bord d'une source, it really should be labeled as such)
Reading- a further reading section with e.g. biography references may be good (I'd nominate Walker's, unsurprisingly, for instance.) Schissel : bowl listen 03:02, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
:I did a futher reading section, with of course the Walker books and some others which Liszt enthusiasts may be interested in. Looks like the 'au bord d'une' has been changed, my PC doesnt want to play it, but Im sure its right. I've looked at works lists and its the only one like it. —M A Mason
::I checked it, the audio's definitely right Tedneeman 23:59, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question about audio sample, and reading.. 

message: Many articles about musicans or composers etc on wikipedia start with "is considered to be the greatest/best..." or something like that, like in this article "Possibly the greatest virtuoso of all time". Adding things like that is just unnecessary and stupid, weather he/she/it is good or not is highly subjective. It's just as stupid as "This is Franz Lizst(for example), some people like him, some don'ta". As if peoples oppinions would change if they found out he is appreciated by some. Thats one the problem with society, people care to much what other people thing.
Well to get on topic again: Less of that stuff.
:While I agree that "Possibly the greatest virtuoso of all time" is a little too POV-ish, he was, and is still widely considered to have been just that, with the numerous legends and stories attached to his life. And you must surely agree that it would be downright silly to rule out such an essential fact in his biography. :-) – Pladask 12:50, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
::To give an own opinion of Liszt (I write it in german as I read it:)
:::"Die guten Leute können nicht davon ablassen, von meinen Triumphzügen und meiner unerreichten pianistischen Meisterschaft zu faseln, und das ist mir gründlich zum Ekel geworden. Sie könnten wahrlich etwas mehr sich schämen mir gegenüber, als mich mit Zurückweisung auf meinen früheren längst überwundenen und verjährten Standpunkt zu verunglimpfen."
::In other words the thing Liszt would have liked to get was acceptance as composer and not as greatest pianist of all times. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.135.143.99 (talk) 10:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unnecessary stuff 

message: There is third concerto in Eb major too.
: Yes, a performance was broadcast on SBS TV (Australia) some years ago.  I seem to remember this was claimed to be by Liszt but conclusive proof is lacking.  JackofOz 23:04, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third concerto 

message: Which is his mother's maiden name - Lager or Lagen? According to this article it's Lagen, but according to the article of Anna Liszt, it's Lager. --1523 15:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lager, according to Alan Walker; I'll change the article, thanks :) M A Mason 16:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lager or Lagen 

message: Can anyone explain to me why this section is so titled? If not I'll change it to something else. Arniep 14:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seemed a good time to change it so I did, to 'Years of Pilgrimage', seemed a lot more appropriate than 'road to pilgrimage' anyway, and it is of course the title of the set of pieces composed at this time. Do change it if you disaprove, thanks M A Mason 19:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Road to Pilgrimage section

message: Does anybody know if Liszt became a priest or something similar.
There was a story that he  was a ladies' man, and he promised each he will marry them, it never happened. In order to avoid the promise, he studied 4 years to be a priest and he was ordained in 1860's, even though he had kids, he was a widow.
:Liszt never became a priest, common misconception. He did, though, take the 4 Minor Orders of the Catholic Church; which, as the article shows, requires neither that the person taking the orders be celibate, nor remain unmarried. It is true that he was a Ladies' man in his day, though to say he promised them all marriage is an exageration. He desperately wanted to marry Princess Caroline however  and they even appealed to the Pope for permission but were unsuccessful. His taking of these orders was certainly not to avoid marriage, as he was completely devoted to Caroline, but for purely religious reasons. M A Mason 21:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Liszt, the priest

message: - Old newspapers say he married to avoid marriage and I do not mean to Caroline, but to other ladies, it's possible this happened before he met Caroline. So what kind of 4 orders? Was this similar to a brother? I know he was religious but...
:This I think is an example of what I talk about in Liszt's AID (everyone get on there and vote for him!), if you ask me it's just a rumour put about by his critics to damage his reputation. He had relationships with a number of women, Someone St Criq (sp?) was one, then there was Marie and Caroline, and he had an affair with a woman called Agnes Street-Someone. He may have proposed marriage to any or all of them. There is this article about Minor Orders that explains the ins and outs of them. I think it was similar to a brother, I know he lived in a monastery and had the title Abbé, but he was under no obligations to do with marriage. Like I say, little more than a rumour. Where and when did you read about this in an old newspaper, or where did you find out about it? I'd be very interested to know, thanks M A Mason 21:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Are you sure

message: Ok, I know somebody who can give you that file, leave your email here for few days, I will get that person to email you. But if he had women, still, should not even be Abbe. What's AID?
:Don't worry about the file, I'll find it myself at some point. And you could have women and be Abbé, he wasn't a monk or a priest etc, he just took the minor orders - helping out at Masses and the like. AID is the article improvement drive where wikipedians vote for an article thtat they all work on to improve it to the standard of a featured article. M A Mason 20:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Where did you get your info from

message: I have added "Liszt's virtuosity and technical reforms" and "piano recital" under Musical style and influence to shed some more light on his pianistic reforms. gordonf238 21:13, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Added a subsection on Liszt's virtuosity

message: : "Liszt's contemporaries such as Chopin and Schumann saw this kind of worship as vulgar and inappropriate, and eventually came to despise Liszt because of it."
Hmm...it is to my knowledge that the relationship between Chopin and Liszt was love/hate, they were close friends, but they could be envious at times. I think it is far too strong to say despise here, though I am not going to change it without approval. Lots could be said about the relationship between Liszt and Chopin, though I don't know much about Schumann and Liszt o_O — Pmerrill
:I support you on the Liszt/Chopin matter. I don't know anything about Schumann and Liszt either -- a source to back this up would be nice. — Pladask 18:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Liszt and Chopin 

message: Should there be an article named "Composer-Pianist"?  It's become a very common phrase phrase, as they are truly a unique breed when compared to regular "concert pianists".  There are lots of pianists that could fall under that category, who made a living as both a composer AND a pianist - Liszt, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Marc-André Hamelin, etc.  Is it worth its own article?  --Crabbyass 18:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Composer-Pianist 

message: Broken category- nono. More seriously: I know of no evidence that Liszt was a freemason at all. He was a lay Franciscan as of the mid-1850s and later took minor orders- not inconsistent but not the same as evidence, which is lacking. Schissel | Sound the Note! 21:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a book Mozat & Liszt sub Rosa with lots of materials. It is from 1984 I think and the author's name is Ph. Autexier. Liszt was freemason since February 8, 1842, as a matter of fact. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.135.143.99 (talk) 09:59, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Freemason? 

message: Okay now -- what's up with the photo of Liszt at the top of this article? It's probably the ugliest thing I've ever seen! I, of course, mean no offense at all to whoever uploaded it -- any photo is better than no photo -- and if anyone should be offended by my comments it should be solely the actual photographer.
In any event, can we do no better than this? I did a search on google and found many, many photos/portraits of the great Liszt. Now, what's most important in an encyclopaedia, naturally, is the written content, and I think the editors have done a pretty good job here. However, the photo is so unattractive that I actually find it distracting: I think we should really consider switching that photo for one of his more dignified portraits, such as this one from Britannica.
I would just do it myself, but I don't think I can just take it from that particular (encyclopaedic) site and upload it here. Can anyone advise me in better detail as to Wikipedia's policy on this? --Todeswalzer|Talk 23:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The photograph in this article is Public Domain, because of the photographer's age, among other things. There is a very strong feeling among Wikipedia's founders that Wikipedia should have as great a part free content as possible. I don't know, but I'm guessing that many of the pictures you found are not demonstrably public domain. If you can find one which is public domain, then according to Bridgeman v. Corel or whatever, any reproduction of it is public domain. (This is all as opposed to Fair use, which is used far too much on WP, IMHO. Mak (talk) 23:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That portrait you posted was painted by Henri Lehmann. And a quick google has revealed that he died in 1882, so it should be public domain. I like this version , which is quite good. From here . M A Mason 23:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah that looks great :) M A Mason 16:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

text: There are some problems concerning your pictures of Liszt. At least two of them are apparently in posession of a person Ernst Burger living in Munich who published a book: Franz Liszt, Eine Lebenschronik in Bildern und Dokumenten, in 1986. They are "Franz Liszt's music room in Weimar, 1884" and "Liszt at piano, 1886". Without knowing much about the legal stuff for myself it could be imagined that Burger wants some references to his collection added. In the "Four ages of Liszt" the first picture was published in Leipzig's Illustrierte Zeitung  from September 27, 1845, and it was printed "Franz Liszt, Ritter des Ordens pour le mérite" beneath. Liszt was "Ritter des Ordens pour le mérite" since summer 1842 so that the picture may not show him as boy but as man. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.162.45 (talk) 11:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  That Photo 

message: The invitation was at the instigation of Maria Pavlovna, if I remember, but Carl Alexander played a large role.  There's also now an article on Hippolyte André Jean Baptiste Chélard if his contract (Cornell U Press edition of The Weimar Years, page 96) with Liszt (immediately contradicted by Grand Duke Carl Friedrich (sorry, wrote Carl Alexander- who was not yet in a position to contradict that...), followed by ill-will...) is relevant*... I do think that the roots of the growing ill-will which helped create the "Barber of Baghdad affair" are of interest if maybe not for a brief article like here.
Much more generally, since some of Walker's references and footnotes on other subjects are presently unverifiable (in locked libraries, for example), a person feels uneasy about using his book for reference material at times. Ways in which his has since been superceded by better research would be of great interest to me. 
* Chélard was J N Hummel's successor in Weimar.  The agreement between Chélard and Liszt was worked out in October of 1842, and contradicted in one respect by the Grand Duke a few days later: the agreement had stipulated that Liszt would "remain Herr Liszt for life, without accepting any other title", a few days later he was asked to sign a document in which he agreed "Herr Liszt has informed me today that he will accept with gratitude and pleasure the title of Kapellmeister in Extraordinary".   Though much might have followed without this disagreement, and while Liszt's new title was in fact - as Walker has occasion to note later- well-chosen (he explains the meaning of 'in Extraordinary' moderately well...)- the whole conflict, while not necessarily avoidable, was no help to his mind in the years that followed, a decade later when he settled in Weimar ... Schissel | Sound the Note! 15:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further on Weimar 

message: Please see the new order on the external sites and check the sites I have there deleted. There is another (commercial) site: pianosociety.com/cms/index.php?section=221 which contains an huge collection of cds (to buy online of course). My other comments are on the hystory page. Alegreen 08:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: I'm not quite sure where to post this, but I think every composer should have his/her most remarkable interpreters listed in some standard way.
--Sdistefano 02:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Uhhh...trust me, trying to decide who the most remarkable Liszt interpreters are would set off a battle of epic proportions. It's such a personal-preference thing, there isn't any good way to say for sure and definitively who is the "best"...and Liszt is particularly difficult in that respect. K. Lástocska 00:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You never know if there's going to be controversy until you try. Who's up for Nikolai Demidenko? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.49.180.137 (talk) 06:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Zoltán Kocsis and György Cziffra all the way!!!! :) K. Lásztocska 16:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Naturally, the correct answer is Vladimir Horowitz.  Anyone who disagrees with me is ... (politeness prevents me from saying).  JackofOz 04:59, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Personnally, even if I love Horowitz, I think it's obvious that nobody plays better Liszt than Claudio Arrau, who learn piano with a Liszt'student. For instance, Arrau's Sonata in B minor is the best I ever heard . —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alexander Doria (talk • contribs) 19:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Liszt interpreters 

message: patently untrue statement that his first language was Slovak removed (it was actually German), and unusual statement the veracity of which I seriously doubt removed from article and pasted here pending verification. 
Here is the weird statement:
He was fascinated by the pre-Hungarian history of Slovakia, he dedicated Slavino slavno Slaveni (Let's Celebrate Famous Slavs) to St. Cyril and Methodius.
Anyone heard of this before?!?!
K. Lástocska 20:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  slovak?? 

message: The article currently states:
:Although Liszt provided opus numbers for his works during his lifetime, these are rarely used today. Instead, his works are usually identified using one of two different cataloging schemes ...
So then the question, Why no Opus numbers? If anyone knows the answer, I'd be very interested. (It might also be useful to explain in the article why the numbers are no longer used.) --Todeswalzer|Talk 00:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It may be misleading to hear the first piano concerto referred to as Liszt's opus four or so I gather when the version we know (which has the same no.?) is no student work, for example.  I suspect that one reason and not the only reason may be akin to the chronology problem you encounter with Antonín Dvořák, where on the contrary  his publisher's sales and resales led to high opus numbers for early works (opus 80 for the E major quartet) that give also no indication of chronology either, and make the Jarmil Burghauser catalog preferable. (Of course, there's a Beethoven cantata, The Glorious Moment (»Der glorreiche Augenblick«) - I've heard it once, it's by my favorite composer; I liked it- from around 1812-4 and premiered in the same concert as symphony no. 7, whose opus no. is 136!) Schissel | Sound the Note! 02:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The last composition of Liszt that got an opus number is definitively the first part of his Lucia-Fantasy, the Andante finale, which got the opus number 13. It was composed in autumn 1839 and published in Jauary 1840. In Liszt's subsequent compositions there is no opus number at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.102.54 (talk) 10:38, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why no Opus numbers? 

message: This seems a little POV to me (if not the entire sentence, then at least the "indeed" part). I tried tweaking it, but it doesn't sound quite right any other way. (I didn't save the changes for that reason.) — The still-Esperanzan  $PЯINGrαgђ  Always loyal! 01:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There may be some POV problems with the wording; however, the essence of the statement is sound and we should be very careful not to eliminate or downplay Liszt's significance as a pianist. He did redefine the piano and the way it was played, and his influence will be felt for as long as the instrument is around. I'll check back in a few days and see what I can come up with. --Todeswalzer|Talk 04:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I didn't say he didn't, but it just sounded a little weird with the "indeed" in there. — The still-Esperanzan  $PЯINGrαgђ  Always loyal! 02:39, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV? 

message: I just removed this sentence:
 He always used the German version Franz, never the Hungarian version Ferenc.   
for the simple reason that it's actually pretty hard to tell. He was born as Franciscus, his parents called him Franzi, the Germans and Austrians called him Franz, the French called him either Franz or Francois, the Hungarians called him Ferenc...and he didn't help us poor confused saps out one bit by almost invariably signing his name as simply "F. Liszt." :) K. Lásztocska 01:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Franciscus, Franz, Francois, Ferenc, Frankie 

message: Could someone who has any knowledge of IPA provide a transliteration of Franz and Ferenc Liszt? It's a pretty glaring omission in the article.
I know the pronunciation of Liszt, but would Franz be like 'Frans', as if it were something belonging to someone called Fran, 'Fran's apple' if you see what I mean. Or would it be more like 'Frants'? And is the end of Ferenc the same as with French, 'Ferench', or more like 'Ferenk'? I have a feeling it's 'Frants' and 'Ferenk', but I'm not sure enough to have a go at the IPA myself. M A Mason 01:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Franz" is being pronounced as "Frants" with a short "a" in regular German. In Vienna people are pronouncing in a different way. "Franz" may there sound as "Frahnts". The most interesting problem of Liszt's own pronounciation when saying "Franz" has not yet been solved in Liszt research and it could most probobably be that some time machine had to be invented first.84.61.2.94 17:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because of the possibility that someone of you is looking to "Franz" with English eyes, I add that the "a" is not being pronounced as in "rat" or "gate" but like the "u" in "but". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.61.6.36 (talk) 15:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA 

message: According to Lizt's own statement in his later years Thalberg had been much more succesful in Paris than Liszt himself. Thalberg was also much more succesful in Italy and in England. In spring 1841 after two concerts of Thalberg in Vienna it was said that he was the real leading pianist of the time. Thalberg was admired by Robert Schumann who met him in October 1838 in Vienna, by Clara Wieck/Schumann who played works of him up to 1847, by Felix Mendelssohn Bartholdy, by Hector Berlioz, by Giaccomo Meyerbeer, by Giaccomo Rossini, by Ferdinand Hiller and many many others. To give some examples concerning the money which was earned by Liszt and Thalberg in their concerts Thalberg gave his first own concert in Paris on April 16, 1836. For that concert he got 10000 Francs. Liszt giving concerts in Lyon at the same time got 500 Francs for one concert. In spring 1842 Thalberg gave two concerts in Paris for which he got 12000 Francs and 13000 Francs. Liszt in the beginning of 1846 was happy for an offer to give two concerts in Paris for which he would get altogether 15000 Francs. While it was said that the compositions of Liszt were poor the compositions of Thalberg were liked and played in all Europe. If it is sayed that the compositions of Thalberg were mostly forgotten up to today it would be correct but the same goes for the vast majority of the compositions of Liszt. It would be difficult in fact to find artists who were not delighted by the music of Thalberg in the time around 1840. Liszt with his struggle against Thalberg was an exception of the rarest kind. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.102.54 (talk) 10:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Liszt and Thalberg 

message: Liszt's letter to his mother mentioning his "Methode" is not from November but from October 19, 1835. Since it was a methode to be used by the students in Geneva and there were not many greatest pianists who ever lived among them it would have been a rather bad methode if it could really provide "an invaluable insight into the playing style of one of the greatest pianists who ever lived". There is some kind of known methode by Liszt. It is called "Technische Studien" and has been published in three volumes by Editio musica, Budapest. From a practical kind of point of view you could take Alfred Cortot's methode as well. Better results will be gained when using Czerny's Schule des Virtuosen which was studied by Hans von Bülow in his early Weimar years.
:The technical studies are very different and irrelevant. As for the methode, no one has claimed that it was ever used in the conservatoire, it was intended to be used there. If it ever was used there, I think it would be quite likely that it would still be with us. As I've put into the article, it is believed by some to be existent, but it has not been found, and clearly not used. October or November I dont think it particularly matters either way. M A Mason 20:52, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Liszt's "methode" 

message: In the diary of Orlando Parry there are the following remarks concerning the concerts given by the group around Lavenu in Dublin: "At 2 this Morning (It is meant the afternoon of January 7, 1841.) 4th concert here, took place at Rotunda as usual. Bad attendance, only about 160  (...) Everything as flat as dish water - no applause, no nothing." and: "5th concert here. It was the Anacreontic Society 2nd Concert, but given in the small room of the Rotunda or Rotundo as they print it here. It was not quite so full as I had anticipated (400) (...) Liszt & Rudersdoff played a piece "Sonata of Beethoven" - 20 minutes long! 'twas dreadful!". In fact the "4th" concert was their first and the "5th" concert their second concert in Dublin. (They had attendend three concerts of other artists the days before.) The "dreadful" sonata should have been the Kreutzer Sonata. After having given two concerts in Limerick they returned to Dublin on January 12th (120 miles!) where they gave two further concerts on January 12th and 13th. It was only the concert on January 13th, a concert of the Philharmonic Society, where they had an audience of at least 1200 people. (The diary of Parry has been published in the Liszt Society Journal in 1981-82.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.162.45 (talk) 11:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Liszt in Dublin 

message: I cannot understand what is exactly meant when saying Liszt would have revolutionized piano technique. At present state there is nothing more to be read that Liszt did something new which was new because it was new but nobody can telll what it was. (For some reasons I am just remembering an old picture which shows Liszt playing a four handed Sonata by Chopin with his left foot only but this was a caricature of course.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.112.116 (talk) 10:30, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are at first reviews saying that Liszt's playing had been bad, and this can hardly be surprising because an artist is not a God, as was correctly said by Schumann. Examples are the two concerts in which he played Mendelssohn's Concerto in d Minor. In both cases there are reviews lamenting that his playing had not been satisfying even technically. Then there are lots of contemporarian reviews saying that other virtuosos had an absolutely unbelievable technique as well. An example is Alexander Dreyschock playing Chopin's Etude op.10,12 with left hand in octaves. (It was on December 27, 1838, in Leipzig and the concert was attended by Thalberg.) Concerning the complete finger independence which was in spring 1837 attributed by Fétis to Thalberg, Liszt in his answer gave a reference to Kalkbenner's methode, and he was right. In fact, the playing of Johann Sebastian Bach can hardly be imagined without having had complete finger independence, so there was nothing new to it in 19th century. A pianist without this quality would in all times not have been a virtuoso but an amateur. Treating the piano as orchestra had been a rather old thing as well. (Think of J. S. Bach again with his Italian Concerto or his arrangements of italian concertos of other composers. You could also think of Schumann's Etudes symphoniques op.13.) Liszt in his own concerts played the last three movements of Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony, and taking Liszt's score there is absolutely nothing extraordinary to be found in them. Having played them for a last time on January 16, 1842, in Berlin, Liszt gave it up because it was not succesful. The arrangement of the "Marche to the Scaffold"  is rather easy to be played. (When playing it in Paris Liszt was strongly critizised by contemporarian by the way.) For giving a more difficult example I am thinking of the first solo in the well known Concerto in Eb Major with the leaping octaves. There is a similar example in the beginning of Liszt's Huguenots fantasy, this time being chromatic. Liszt took it from Weber's Concerto ("Konzertstück") in f Minor so that there was nothing new to it again. The leaps over two octaves in the first version of Liszt's Marche of Tcherkesses from Glinka's Ruslan and Ludmilla are much more difficult to play, but they can be found in an earlyer fantasy by H. Herz as well. The famous octaves in the beginning of the "Erlkönig" (see Walker's Liszt I, p.257) can be found in an original version of Schubert's song. Comparing Liszt's piano works with works by Thalberg and Döhler (I collected lots of them for scientific purposes.) it turnes out that it might be difficult finding anything at all (concerning technique) which was in the works by Liszt and missing in the other's works. In fact Liszt took much from the works by his collegues, especially from Thalberg's works. They could all play the piano quite well. Liszt's concert pieces have not been rarely played by other pianists in the 1840s because of their revolutionizing the piano technique but because they have been disliked as music. The Andante finale from Lucia di Lammermoor was an exception (being played by other artists) and this piece was regarded as a piece in Thalberg's style. So if wanting to praise Liszt why not doing it just saying that he was one of the greatest composers in 19th century? It would be have been much more than painting him as incredible piano Hulk instead and I should have agreed without comment.84.61.2.94 17:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Liszt's revolutionizing the piano technique 

message: I leave it to those actively working on this article to decide whether to use this but Oscar Levant remarked, "The later piano works of Liszt were harmonically so inventive and new that they were the forerunner of the Impressionist school that Debussy founded." [Oscar Levant, The Unimportance of Being Oscar, Pocket Books 1969 (reprint of G.P. Putnam 1968), p. 129–130. .] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmabel (talk • contribs) 07:33, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Levant, Debussy 

message: Having read in your article that there is a letter Liszt's to his mother which begins in faltering Hungarian, and after an apology continues in French, I'd like to see it. Since it is apparently missing in the new edition of Liszt's correspondence with his mother (ed. Klara Hamburger, Eisenstadt 2000) I have got to search it eslewhere. So, please tell me where you found it.80.144.195.184 18:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Liszt's letter in Hungarian 

message: Having learnt that you are preferring doing corrections without listening to arguments before, I did some of them in your list of Liszt's works. For getting tired now I'll take a break. So please don't be angry that there have been some mistakes to be found left. Concerning that language problem I took the point of the view, that it will surely a better task for you finding out apropriate English titles instead of the titles given until now. (Anonymus Scholar)80.145.10.217 10:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Corrections made to the listed works 

message: The list with the selected works is already rather long. It will be much longer when adding some of the most important choral works and some others to it. For this reason I strongly suggest to build extra pages for the piano works, symphonic works, choral works etc. The extra pages may contain links leading to the single works. At present state some aspects are totally missing. An example is Liszt as editor of piano works by Beethoven, Schubert, Weber, Viole and others. Giving a remark to your article's principal style again (I know that you do not like it.), it is at present state looking like an advertising page. With such kind of a view, a life such as the life having been lived by Liszt can in no sense be understood at all. Liszt himself had a much more sceptical view at himself, and there have been good reasons for him thinking in that way. To give a single hint, his motto in his youth as it is known from one of his letters was: "I prefer being not happy and rich, but being happy and poor."  He was not touring for 10 years just for the fun of it but for the purpose to get as much money as possible with his concerts. It was only in his later years (starting in the end of 1861) that he changed his philosophy and in his last years he was subjectively feeling being not happy and poor altogether.85.182.47.210 19:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The page needs a lot of work I know, and over time it will get better. I have a few ideas that I'll put forward soon. As for the list of works I agree with you, it is too long, and I think it includes too many works that just aren't notable at all. Love Liszt though I do, I am very much aware that not everything he wrote was a masterpiece. It needs cuttting down certainly. I think a new article for a (complete?) list of works would be a very good idea. If you see any works listed that you don't think merit inclusion please remove them by all means. M A Mason 19:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I shall add some dates of first performances to some of the piano works until soon, but I don't know the appropriate English names of some of the cities. So please have a critical look at it and change the versions given by me.80.145.1.196 11:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Having added the dates of firt performances, there are some problems with some links which I cannot correct myself at moment.80.144.124.222 09:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Listed works 

message: Concerning Robert le diable: The exact date of the concert in Hamburg was taken from an announcement in the "Hamburgische Correspondent" (a German paper). The further details have been told by Liszt himself (according to Liszt it had been "ein halber Misserfolg"); see the diary of his pupil Carl Lachmund. (There is an old edition in German and a rather new edition in English of it.)
Concerning the Hexameron: The fact that the variation by Czerny is the only really difficult one will easily be verified when looking into the score. It is besides my own experience, having played quite a lot of Liszt's piano music myself, and it is shared by all people known to me, who had also played it. The other fact, that Liszt skipped the variations by Czerny and by Chopin in many cases, is known from announcements and reviews of his concerts. (He made two own variations instead by the way, but it is not known whether he ever played them.) Giving some examples: In an announcement for the concert on February 18, 1838, in Milan, the variation by Czerny is missing. In an announcement for the concert on January 26, 1840, in Pressburg, it is explicitly to be read, that the Hexameron would contain only variations by Thalberg, Liszt, Herz and Pixis. From a review in the AmZ ("Leipziger Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung") No. 13 from March 1840, p.261-62 it is known that Liszt played the same selection in Prag. According to the AmZ No. 14 from April 1840, p.299 the variation by Czerny had been omitted in the concert on March 30, 1840 in Leipzig, and - so far as I can remember at moment - it is known from a review by Schumann that the variation by Chopin had been omitted as well. In this style I could go on, giving a very long list.84.61.93.253 19:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources concerning Robert le diable and Hexameron 

message: Sir, I do respect your knowledge on the subject of Franz Liszt, please be under no illusion about that. You clearly do have a very scholarly background and have probably done more research about Liszt than I could ever hope to do. I do not doubt your credentials as a scholar, nor do I doubt your intentions in coming here and putting accross your point of view.
I have to speak my mind though, and say that it is starting to get tiresome coming on here to read essays about topics which are in no way to do with the article. This talk page is not a forum. If the nationality or whereabouts of Liszt on a certain date are to be debated, this is not the place, and there are plenty of music forums where this can be done. It is well accepted in mainstream scholarship that Liszt was Hungarian. I have never seen an article, website, publication of any sort that states otherwise. To say otherwise amounts to original research, which is not allowed here.
You have shown by your edits to the list of works section that you can be a very valuable contributor and a great asset to the article, and the project in general. Coming here and writing your essays not only wastes your own time, but the time of those reading it, but especially K. Lásztocska who has very patiently read and responded to all your comments, arguments and indeed accusations.
For your own sake and that of the article, let's spend time improving it; not bickering over what amounts to minor points which in the grand scheme of things are irrelevant. Here we should be talking about the article, and controversial subjects there, not what Liszt had for breakfast on May 8th 1840 or something similarly rediculous. Yours respecfully, M A Mason 23:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My guess is that he ate French food. Seriously, though, I have to agree with you. —  $PЯINGrαgђ  23:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You may both, please, have a look to my posting from March 5, especially to its end, in the Liszt-being-Hungarian chapter above, and afterwards read the lines which were given by our colleague Lastochka afterwards.80.144.113.202 11:45, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, please do. Tell us who wins. K. Lásztocska 17:56, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lásztocska "wins". —  $PЯINGrαgђ  23:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  To the anonymous scholar 

message: In case that you like to add a little anecdote to your article you may take the following one which I found in an essay "Liszt et Thalberg" by Ernest Legouvée in the Parisian Ménestrel from May 11, 1890. In April 1842 Thalberg had given two concerts in Paris and Chopin had given one. Legouvée wrote to this in a review for the Parisian Gazette musicale: "When the eternal question will arise again who was the greatest pianist of today, was it Liszt or was it Thalberg, it will come from the public's side the same answer as the answer given by me: It is Chopin!" According to Legouvée he had been visited by Thalberg on the next day. Thalberg shook hands with him and said: "Bravo! Your article is nothing more but only just."  In contrast to this, Liszt who had arrived in Paris some weeks later was heavily angry, refusing to talk to Legouvée for a long time.
Liszt had in June 1842 a Russian pupil Wilhelm von Lenz who later wrote a book about the golden age of the virtuosos' times. (You can find it in the bibliography given by A. Walker.) In the chapter about Chopin there are astonishing aggressions contra Chopin to be found, and it is hardly to be doubted that the aggressions had come in main parts from Liszt's side. There is a last chapter about Adolph Henselt, living in St. Petersburg, by the way, and from the point of view taken by Lenz it was Henselt who was to be regarded as the true champion of all of them.80.144.122.132 11:01, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article mentions that they became rivals. If you'd like to illustrate it with this anecdote, go ahead. Reference it though, of course. My only concern is that the article is long enough as it is without a huge paragraph about a fairly insignificant article. M A Mason 11:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Liszt, Thalberg and Chopin 

message: Since I got the impression that it might be difficult for you to get certain sources whereas it is easy for me, I shall give the sources from which the well known story of Funérailles being correlated with the death of the Hungarian Count Batthanyi on October 6, 1849, is used to be drawn. The sources are described in: Mueller, Rena Charin: Liszt’s „Tasso“ Sketchbook: Studies in Sour­ces and Re­vi­si­ons, Ph. D. dissertation, New York University 1986. (Mueller's thesis was published on micro film. If you like to read it yourself you can get it from the library of a university and make an own copy from the micro film. Mueller's writing style is sometimes somewhat confuse, but the impression from reading her book is in in so far correct as Liszt was an utmost confuse person himself.) The pages 251-277 are concerning the genesis of the Harmonies poétiques et religieuses.
Concerning Funérailles I am looking at Mueller’s p.270f. According to this, there had been a sketch "Magyar" from which materials were taken for the later Funérailles. (I have never seen the sketch "Magyar" myself.) For the sketch "Magyar" there is not a single date given, so that nobody can tell in which time it was made. It is known from a letter Liszt's to Joachim Raff from December 1850 that Liszt wanted to finish his Harmonies poétiques et religieuses before returning from Bad Eilsen to Weimar in January 1851. It should contain 6 pieces, but not Funérailles. On the other hand it is known from a further source that in the second half of 1850 Liszt had made or planned pieces "Marche funérailles" and "Cantique d'amour" for his Harmonies poétiques et religieuses. It is the impression after this, that Liszt was still uncertain of the cycle's final conception, and since 1834 there had been lots (a dozen at least) of different conceptions before.
Coming to the supposed correlation between Funérailles and the events on October 6, 1849, the only source which was given by Mueller (and in all of the other books I read) is a reference to Peter Raabe's book "Liszts Schaffen" ("Liszt's works"), p.248. Looking at that book it is to be read:
:"In Br. VI, p.266, there is a hint given by Liszt that it (Funérailles) is concerning Hungary. The only victim of the Hungarian revolution was Batthanyi, who was on October 6, 1849, executed because of martial law." (comment: the ONLY victim of the revolution was Batthanyi?! WTF is he talking about? K. Lásztocska 16:40, 18 March 2007 )(UTC)
This is absolutely everything which had come from Raabe’s side. Looking at "Br. VI, p.266" (It is a letter Liszt's to Princess Wittgenstein from 1870.) it turns out that no victims of the Hungarian revolution are mentioned at all. According to the letter the Hungarian minister Horvath had recited an old poem by Vörösmarty from 1840 in honour of Liszt, and Liszt had "responded with compositions like Hungaria, Funérailles and some others" to it, whatever this "responding" might have meant. (Alan Walker in his Liszt II, p.71-72, n.31, gives a reference to LLB, vol. 6, p.266 (i.e. "Br. VI, p.266") as well, but cautiously avoiding to tell what the reader of the letter will find.)
The only source for a connection between Funérailles and the events on October 6, 1849, is therefore a guess Peter Raabe's without any foundation in sources. Raabe's supposition, Batthanyi would have been the only victim of the Hungarian revolution is obviously wrong, so that the question of the meaning of Funérailles in 1853, when the cycle was published, is in all respects open. People in 1853 who bought and played it could not find a single hint pointing to Hungary in general or especially to October 6, 1849 (There was no title of the "Funérailles, October 1849" kind but only "Funérailles"), and no sources even of private kind existed from which they could get knowledge of it. So far as they had read Liszt's book about Chopin before (It was written 1850-51 and published 1851-52.), they had from its last chapter good reasons for the assumption that he was altogether thinking of the death of Felix Lichnowski and Chopin instead, and that it was for this reason that in October 1849 a new period in his own life had begun. (In Liszt's subjective reminding they had both died in one and the same year, as he wrote in his book about Chopin, although the dates in the real world had been quite different.)
The cycle was published in 7 parts, and Funérailles was altogether the 5th part and the 7th piece. Without explicit explanations (It would be very long.) I add to this as a last remark, that the numbers 5 and 7 in Liszt's works have an autobiographical importance of the highest degree and are in most cases pointing to him himself. Stating it even more explicit, the numbers are pointing to an imagination Liszt's of living together with the Countess d'Agoult again. (His idea concerning the numbers might have been that the name "Marie" had 5 and the name "d'Agoult" 7 letters.)84.61.63.73 16:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not just Raabe. Herbert Westerby in The Piano Works of Franz Liszt (pp. 155-6) also talks about the Hungarian influence from the disturbances of 1849, mentioning three of Liszt's friends being killed. M A Mason 17:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The Funérailles are pointing to the tragic event (1850) in Hungary. This kind of music is of no use at all, and I confess that it had been my fault not to have prevented its publication.
While the second sentence is apparently indicating that there had been something embarrassing in connection with the piece, the date 1850 is at first sight looking like a mistake made by Liszt. But from the sources which I gave some days ago the date is known to be correct because it was the second half of 1850 when Liszt composed or planned to compose Funérailles. The piece might therefore have been a part of a response to the poem by Heine which had been very angrily read by Liszt. He had to defend himself and to explain for which reasons he had not taken part in the events of the revolution in Hungary. In order to do this he wrote the last chapter in his book about Chopin. Felix Lichnowski is only mentioned at that place and there was no further connection between him and Chopin at all. Lichnowski was praised by Liszt in many respects, and afterwards Liszt wrote that he had lost all of his interest in things correlated with Lichnowski after his death. Since Lichnowski had been killed because of political reasons, the thing for which Liszt had lost his interest was politics. It could be given a letter by Liszt to Joachim Raff as a source in favour of this. The things are altogether suiting perfectly, so that the tragic event of 1850 concerning Hungary which was in November 1875 remembered by Liszt would have been the publication of the poem by Heine. After this we may arrive at the compromise that Liszt was in connection with Funérailles altogether thinking of Lichnowski and Chopin but in some respects of Hungary as well.80.145.61.60 18:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources concerning Funérailles 

message: The fact that the performance of the Clochette-fantasy was a complete fiasco is known from several sources. There is a remark in the French paper "Le Pianiste" from November 11, 1834, p.16. Then there is an answer given by Liszt to Lina Ramann from December 1876. "Ich spielte damals die Fantasie (eigentlich Variationen) mit Misserfolg in ein paar Concerten." To this comes a letter by Liszt to Jules Janin from May 1846 which is also stating the complete fiasco from November 1834. The letter has been published by Jaques Vier in: L’artiste – le clerc, p.145.84.61.27.11 14:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great. Please feel free to add that as a citation to the article. M A Mason 16:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "complete fiasco" of the Clochette-fantasy 

message: The place where Liszt has been born was "Reiding" according to his birth certificate. Liszt himself and all the rest of his family called it "Raiding". For example there is a letter by Adam Liszt to Count Eszterházy with the original handwritten date "Raiding 13. April 1820". Hungary was a kingdom in those times, and since 1741 the Hungarian King was the Austrian Emperor. In 1809 the Hungarians got an offer from Napoleon according to which Hungary should have become independent from Austria, but it was not accepted by them.84.61.27.11 15:01, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: None of this is surprising given that the Austrians had official influence. Over the church, over the language that his family would've used. As for the offer from Napoleon, who exactly turned it down? I'm doubtful that they held some kind of plebiscite. Much more likely is that the aristocracy turned it down, the ones with a vested interest in the maintanance of the Empire, economic benefits during the war for example. It's irrelevant anyway. Again, please feel free to change the article and source it if you're not happy with it. Otherwise, don't waste our time. M A Mason 17:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Raiding" or "Doborján" 

message: Substituted at 20:26, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment