Talk:Curse and mark of Cain/Archive001

message: I think this page was slapped with a "higher standard" because much of it sounded like an opinion - and there are no references or sources, aside from four editors interpretation of 19th century doctrines. That won't fly. User:68.60.55.162 do you have sources for this, or is this article based solely on your 'understanding' of the interpretation of the doctrines? Is there a Non-LDS-facing book on the doctrine? -Visorstuff 20:54, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: Here is an example of what should NOT be allowed:
"Ironically, the Church was forcibly expelled from the state of Missouri and the state government legalized the killing of Mormons through the Extermination Order because of the Anti-slavery, abolistionist stance of Joseph Smith, Jr. and his followers, and their equal treatment of Blacks in the state and their liberal views in allowing blacks and women to vote unlike most of their Non-Mormon neighbors." 
I am familiar with the Extermination Order, and it had very little (and that only speculative) to do with Black people. The Mormon citizens of Missouri were armed and had been fuighting areas of Northern Missouri, they were known as the Danites, and were a militant and agressive group, who were not unlike the KKK in their intensity. They took up arms as militias according to Joseph Smith 
on July 27th, 1838
"Thus far, according to the order of the Danites. We have a company of Danites in these times, to put to right physically that which is not right, and to cleanse the Church of every great evil which has hitherto existed among us inasmuch as they cannot be put to right by teachings and persuasyons [sic]. This company or a part of them exhibited on the fourth day of July [—] They come up to consecrate, by companies of tens, commanded by their captains over ten" (Faulring, p. 198)
Originally the Danites were a religious militia (like the Janjaweed of Sudan) who wanted to remove those dissenters (dissenting not due to the issue of slavery, but to other issues, like Polygamy) to Smith's own religious changes. This militia group eventually expanded into fighting against other non-mormons as well as Mormon dissenters. Over time the two sides fought, and the tension escalated with the state. And the state responding in typical prejudice, instituted the Extermination ORder... NO WHERE does the racism against Blacks show itself to play a role, and to claim such is misleading. THIS is an example of the Mormon POV distortion that I have had to bring up. It should not be tolerated in Wikipedia, guys stop it!
:First of all, you do not "own" this article and cannot dictate what should and shouldn't be allowed. If so, you need to talk to the founders, who believe that the Wiki shoudl be built by consensus. The Gallatin, MO skirmish which directly led to the extermination order, was over voting rights. Mormons were barred from entering the voting place. Missourians feared the "northerners" who were Mormons of puritan descent would vote in a bloc on such issues such as slavery and how much black votes should count for. I would say that was a pretty significant reason, wouldn't you?
:The Danites involvemnt or even organization is suspect at this time. You are over simplyfying and confusing dates.  you state "They took up arms as militias according to Joseph Smith 
on July 27th, 1838" Smith could not have led them at this time. In addition, I am more familiar with the danites than you realize and Danites have absolutely nothing to do with the article. they do have to deal with the extermination order, but so does mormon views on slavery, blacks and indians. -Visorstuff 23:34, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  An example of poor biased scholarship 

message: :I've slapped a NPOV template on the page, because you have not cited such things that I left in notes, such as the Mark of Cain being a blotch on his face, etc. In addition, you have introduced unfactual informaiton about the Joseph Smith Translation, etc. Feel free to reach out to Non-Mormon or even other Anti-Mormons on the WP:LDS to balance out your opinion edits. You may want to start with User:Sheldon Rampton, who is a very outspoken critic of the Church - especially outside of Wikipedia. REmember not all of us that have edited this page are LDS, but from reading your posts above, it is obvious that they have more understanding of this topic than you do. I've studied Mormonism for about 30 years, and think I do  know a bit about it. I remember living through the Mormon culture at the time blacks received the priesthood. I remember the happiness of my black mormon friends and nieghbors. I also remember the sadness and racism they felt at times. But to make such blatant POV statements as you have is very unencyclopedic. -Visorstuff 23:34, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: There are a few problems with how the article has been handled.
1.Any mention of Mormon theology or scriptures or prophets relating the curse to Black people is either played down or deleted. This is a gross distortion of facts via omission. The list of what the curses consistency has routinely been edited to remove any reference to Black people, despite the clear comments by Brigham Young that specifically discusses them. In fact, the commentary by Young in 1853 was in order to address the African people, how rediculous is it to edit the main event out of this article. Enough!
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/brigham1852feb5_priesthoodandblacks.htm
And no, removing the whole section in order to solve the P.R. dillemma in this article will not be allowed, I will keep this list in here. (Thanks to whoever decided to put it in the first place).
2. The Pearl of Great Price IS a Joseph Smith testimony that Blacks were cursed. There have been comments in here that Smith did not contribute to the Curse of Cain on Black people issue. But he did contribute with his writings in the Pearl of Great Price.
3. Softening of the candid wording against the racism should not be condoned. It was wrong, still is wrong, and should not be "retold in a softer way".
4.The Mormon church is given the most attention, because it is the Church that attracted the most attention to this issue. All other churches simply followed a folk-ideology. The Mormon church went much further, by creating a doctrinal, scriptural, and prophetic elaboration on this. Where the Southern Baptists apologized for their heresy, the Mormon church has continued to promote this as something God actually said, even to the point that sections of their scriptures were created to support it. Thus, the Mormon church forms the most important aspect of the promotion of this ideology, even though they did not invent it. (although, again according to the Mormon church, they are the only one with the truth, and therefore they did invent it)
I want to make it clear as day. This article is not going to be designed to serve as a P.R. platform for the Mormon church. I have read the comments in here, and I do understand the Wikipedia policies. These policies should not be excluded for the sake of Mormon, or White sensibilities. --208.254.174.148 14:18, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added in my citations when I added in new references and links last week. They are there. I'm not going to rehash on the talk page - feel free to look at them youself. As for the extermination order, it is there. As for Kimball's teaching, it is considered a great deal of autoritative - as he was the one who received the revelation to stop the ban. If you think Kimball's comments should be removed, so then should young's and smiths. Let's just leave this to the scriputures. The catholic "parallel" is cited in the references. It is in a section about other denominations views. Not in a Mormon view. This aricle is about more than just the mormon church, it is about the "curse of cain" which very little has been taught on this as opposed to the curse of ham in LDS theology. You are getting the two confused and frankly, you are embarrassing yourself. -Visorstuff 17:57, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mormonism - fairness - integrity 

message: Three times has Tzipporah been reomved. The relevance is this. The Curse of Cain article is about the belief that it was on Black people to serve as slaves and to not be intermarried with the Israelites, or other "non" (and I empathize those quotes) Black people.
For the person who asked what the relevance is. I will explain it to you one last time. TZIPPORAH IS A KUSHITE. KUSHITES are BLACK, that is what the WORD Kushite MEANS in Hebrew. IF a Hebrew speaker wanted to call a Black person Black, they would use the word KUSHITE. Kushites were identified south of Egypt where we know they are BLACK even now to this very moment. Go to Sudan, take a plane there, and see for yourself. They have always been Black. They are not tanned white people. And if they have a Caucasoid shaped skull, that does not mean that they were not "really" black. And any other excuse you can make up for trying to turn Kushites into "not black, just tanned" will also be refuted. Tzipporah STAYS in the article, forever. That statement about her is a critical element of the inconsistency of the interpretation, and if you do not understand why, then that is your problem. She stays in the article.
Great, let's add in a list of other blacks in the bible that the curse didn't affect. -Visorstuff 17:57, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why Tzipporah is mentioned in the article. 

message: I'm having a hard time understanding your thought process. You think that any mention about blacks in the bible is relevant, but that treatement of other races is not?
You removed: "Ironicly, there are a number of racist teachings against Jews, Indians and others in early Christian documents, but none dealing specifically with blacks." 
This is documented in the sources I provided last week. And is significant as it states that blacks were not a target of discrimination in the early church, but others were. Why is this not significant in your mind? -Visorstuff 20:32, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: What is your thought process or are you censoring or trying to control this article?

message: Great additions to the article today COGDEN and anon. Both of you keep up the good work. -Visorstuff 21:02, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Good additions

message: "There is no scholarly consensus of what the curse of cain would be." - This seems to be premeditated to guide the reader towards a preconceived notion. The Bible (from which the Curse of Cain originates) clearly indicates what the curse is. I apologize for my bluntness, but this is really annoying that I have to remove content that is in my opinion undermining the facts of what has happened in history. If Wikipedia is going to be an  exercise on experimenting with "journalilstic relativism" then let me know now. (unsigned by anon
If you can demonstrate that there is a consensus among scholars as to the specific meaning, please cite. Most generally agree on only two points. This statement is not about biblical interpretations, but about scholarly consensus. -Visorstuff 22:39, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another example of unnecessary distraction 

message: Use of the racial curse of Cain doctrine in the Catholic Church====
The Catholic Church teaches that the curse of Cain was given by the earth, not God, to Cain, as a punishment for having to "opened its mouth and drunk the blood of thy brother." The Church teaches that Cain's punishment was not having to wander, as he founded a City, but that he wouldn't have the "strengh" of the earth in his agricultural endeavors, but that the Earth would still produce for him. The Church also teaches that he was to be banished from the land of his parents as a result of his curse. 
As for the mark of the curse, the Catholic Encyclopedia states, "No indication as regards the nature of this sign is given us."
I took this out because guess what. No where in this section is there any indication of the Catholic Church using the curse of cain in any racial context... please highlight what you see as a racial interpretation anywhere in this section above. Otherwise it stays out. And yes, this is what I consider to be manipulation (smoke and mirrors) of the article to deflect unwanted attention away from those who DID practice Anti-black racism in the name of Christianity.--208.254.174.148 22:27, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The title of this article is not Racism and the Curse of Cain, but "Curse of Cain." As the Catholic Church does teach about the Curse of Cain, it should be included in this article. REmoval of an interpretation of the curse of cain to highlight another interpretation is a form of censorship to push a POV. I do agree, however, that the section heading should not include "racism" in the heading. I'm adding back in. -Visorstuff 22:36, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another example of unnecessary distraction 

message: You guys can teach me how to write more professionally. I can teach you guys how to NOT use propaganda tactics when writing articles about sensitive topics.
For example, when its mentioned that Christians refute the curse this is how someone put it: 
More recently, there has been a Christian backlash against use of the curse of Cain doctrine in racial politics. Today, most Christian denominations flatly reject such a doctrine. Some Christian apologetic observers also point to Biblical references which they believe refute the doctrine, including a reference in the Book of Numbers...
well, I believe that leaves the reader with a false impression of how the Christian population views the curse. Just about ALL, not "some" Christian apologists point to biblical references. And this is not a matter of belief, and not a recent phemonon. But the reader might think that until recently most Christians believed in the curse of Cain... This is a propaganda tactic in writing,I believe it's called "affirmation via ommission". It's where you relatively quantify something that happens by using "some" in order to give the reader a false impression that "most" were opposing. But in this instance, this is not an honest way to write this article. (So this is why I am handling the article so heavy handed, because these kind of tactics are rampant in this article). 
so I changed the paragraph to say this:
More recently, there has been a stronger Christian backlash against use of the curse of Cain doctrine in racial politics. Today, all of the mutually recognizeable Christian denominations flatly reject such a doctrine. Most Christians also point to Biblical references which refute the doctrine, including a reference in the Book of Numbers...
You guys see the difference? If not, then just pretend for a moment we were talking about White people being cursed, and not Black people. I think then you can see how dishonest it would be for some one to play down the significant Christian majority throughout the world that has never supported this point of view. Once you stop thinking that the only Christian points of view that counted in history were the "white" ones, then you will see that this is a no brainer. I think now, you all understand. I have had multiple people read my comments before posting them, and I cannot figure out how to more clearly explain this obviousness. --208.254.174.148 22:58, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not think COGDEN was trying to be dishonest, as you suggested above. Rather, that is Wikipedia norms not to use absolute statments such as "all" or "nearly all" as it is impossible to prove unless you do one BIG poll. We appreciate your efforts in this article, and clearly all of us have a lot to learn. I still don't see the relevance of many of your edits, as it seems like biblical-based apologetic arguments that you use, rather than external scholarship, but either way we'll get ahold of how to best work together soon enough. But also, realize this is not a Mormon article - it needs to be expanded or it could get the delete or the merge with another article vote from others. Keep up the good work. -Visorstuff 23:38, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  We will learn from each other 

message: Can a Black person with access to references be a mediator here? 
Smith wrote clearly in support of slavery as indicated in his letters in Messenger and Advocate. I and one other person were reviewing this over the past two days and were watching to see how the LDS position in these articles in Wikipedia would respond to some of the comments raised by some anonymous friends. Although I do believe he was rather immature in his comments, Anon has made some very compelling points that I have yet to see a credible response to. Firstly the Mormon Extermination Order was not related to slavery or Black people, it was related to insurrection and civil disobedience in northern Missouri. The Mormon war was a three sided affair that simply attracted too much attention. Mormons were openly attacking excommunicated Mormons and vice versa after a fallout from the schism between Smith and others, and the way I undersand it, much of this was due to the Mormon's buying up land for the second coming and their belief that they and they alone were chosen to the rapture (or protection of God). It was this open air belief that sparked the religious (not racial) intolerance of the Missourians. 
LaSueur, The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri - ISBN 0-8262-0729-4
The other issue that is irking me actually is that there are too many omissions. I see what seems to be an attempt of neutrality in handling the article, but we go from citing resources on one hand, then going to making statements about Smith being anti-slavery in the beginning (no references), despite references being shown multiple times of Smith's Pearl of Great Price supporting a doctrine of Cain being the ancestor of Black people. (or let me rephrase, of some  people having Black skin???).
The only reference I think exists is some article in the Morning Star, which I cannot find, that vaguely hints at encouraging Black people to settle in Missouri and convert to Mormonism. No where in any of the references to this article does it encourage Black people to emancipate themselves. 
Obviously these issues "Curse of Cain" "Mormon Extermination Order" and "Blacks and Mormonism" are cross listing with each other. The same people are editing them on both sides. 
Why don't we get the references (not secondhand repeats on other websites of the same arguements presented here) of what Smith and his companions actually said. If we cannot provide them, then predicate the statements with "some believe" or "there is specualtion that...". But when i read "Smith was anti-slavery" I failed to find that, and actually STUMBLED across the Messenger and Avocate, while LOOKING for evidence to support the LDS position! So lets clear up the antagonism on both sides.
--Zaphnathpaaneah 06:33, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What difference does it make if the mediator is black or not? Should we also say that he must be a Mormon? How about a black mormon? How about making it very neutral and add the qualification of a non-american as well? That way we'll get the most neutrality that we can. 
Perhaps we should limit discussion on the main page to references to the "Curse of Cain" itself, leaving out all other context of Mormon treatement of blacks? That way no context is given, but facts are given. We could each provide quotes about the teaching of the "curse of cain" from every general authority who has used that phrase in church history. From Brigham Young (smith never mentioned the "curse of cain") to Bruce R. McConkie. Let's just add in each quote. What do you say? (I doubt anyone will respond to this, as other suggestions above have been ignored as well) I'm taking a wikiholiday from major editing of the page. I am not a racist, nor have I do I believe I have disclosed my race. If you want to see what black mormons (who should be objective on the matter) think about it, i'd recommend BlackLDS.org (which offers a no-nonsense view that is not flattering, but much more NPOV than this page) or starting a dialogue with Genesis or reviewing their site [www.ldsgenesisgroup.org/ Genesis Group] (which is more favorable to the church). We've all admitted that Mormons historically have not treated Blacks as equals, but to single them out is discrimination in itself. The teachings of the church now is anything but racist, and I have a hard time seeing how the Pearl of Great Price is any different than the Bible in it's teachings of the curse of cain or of blacks - see side by side comparison above. Perhaps i'm just tried to look past race as an issue - as it is not in my life. I live in a predominately black and hispanic area, and have not encounted such a systematic attack against mormons as I have online or on the wiki. To target Mormons as racist is wrong and offensive. 
I would agree with you except for one problem. Mormon scripture and mormon prophets and leaders still point to a Black skin-race of people. The relating of Cain to Black skin will invariably lead people to associate the black skin of those "cainites" to Black people in our world. Why? Because from those with a Biblical view, people accept almost universally that Black African people came from the line of Ham. It was taught openly and has not changed, outside of non-Christian interjections. So that assumption is not challenged. In addition, even within the context of the Bible, it's expounded, into Africa, very neatly, fitting much of the modern archaeological revelations of Black Africans migrating throughout north east Africa and S.E. Asia.  --208.254.174.148 00:30, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

text: That said, I do notice that there is consisency to the timing of the first edit, editing style (and textual content) of and general attitutes used to support points against Mormonism by User:68.60.55.162 (IP based in Michigan), 208.254.174.148 (also based in Michigan) and User:Zaphnathpaaneah - two of which have become new editors in the past month (208... has been "lurking in Wikipedia since early 2005," which ties in well with Z's profile page). I'm not accusing you Zaphnathpaaneah of using sockpuppets - but there is a good deal of evidence to support this (and I think enough evidence to support that the two anon editors are the same person). I don't care if you use three different profiles to edit - but if you are the same, dealing with one person would offer much more consistency, and I'd encourage you to be consistent and have integrity. If you are not the same person, disregard, but know that there is an coincidental upsurge of controversial editing on black history from Michigan within the past 40 days. Interesting trend, but may mean nothing. User:Zaphnathpaaneah in particular has made some great contributions to the Wiki. So in any case, keep up the good work, and enjoy your wiki experience. I'm happy to participate in any mediation as long as we agree on the mediator(s) -Visorstuff 12:46, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

text: If you recall this, please find it. As stated above, the LDS Church has never used the full text of the JST (also discussed at Joseph Smith Translation). The text for the LDS exerpts that are included as footnotes in the KJV the church uses is  here, and the full text of the CoC version is here []. You have it all, please find - I think you must be thinking of something else. Let me know what else I can do to help you find it. -Visorstuff 15:02, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation 

message: Firstly let me apologize for the confusion I created with my improper use of not logging in. I did not realize how relevant it is. I am not here to make a name for myself, and so I didn't care enough to login. But it seems like for many of you, this comes across as being evasive and tricky. That is not the case. You can blame me for all of the content from those IP addresses if you want, it doesn't matter to me. 
What I want to address is this
"The Mormons were against slavery and favored immigration of free blacks. Their views soon brought them into conflict with proslavery factions, and they were forced north across the Missouri River into Clay County. Violence continued, and in 1836 the legislature set aside Caldwell County for the Mormons, where they settled and founded the town of Far West. However, some also moved into Davies and Carroll counties, where opposition from their neighbors led to the Mormon War. Governor Lilburn W. Boggs called out the state militia with the order that the Mormons had to be “exterminated or driven from the state.” By April 1839 most Mormons had left Missouri and gone first to Illinois, and later founded a new Zion in Salt Lake City, Utah., mith tried to establish Mormon communities in many places, but they faced opposition to some practices and their anti-slavery stance. In 1838, the governor of Missouri ordered all Mormons to leave the state!. "
This was one of the references that Visorstuff posted, but this is not a reference in what would be considered a real honest reference. This is just a 3rd hand source, another website poster's opinion, and is no better than me or one of my friends posting a webpage and then using it as a reference. Most of the examples Visorstuff are like this.  I do believe that Wikipedia does not consider that to be a credible way to support a position does it, even if the person wrote a book or two, without firsthand resources, it's not a credible way to resolve this issue. What is particularly of interest is this part "The Mormons were against slavery and favored immigration of free blacks. Their views soon brought them into conflict with proslavery factions, and they were forced north".  I know from what I learned, that is not how it happened, but I out of habit take the devil's advocate and search for information spoken BY the people involved in the incident. So, well I try to find this by first hand citations, but none exist. And what ended up happening is that I found evidence to refute it. Smith spoke clearly in favor of slavery no more than 2 years before this incident. Another thing that bothered me was that someone in here posted that Smith had ran on an anti-slavery platform, but I have found no firsthand information about it. These vague things are suspicious to me, much in the same way that my posting from two IP addresses is suspicious to you. But I have provided clear information about why I did that, and I do not get the same clarity about this issue. --Zaphnathpaaneah 00:53, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just pulled about a hundred references to slavery in LDS historical documents. I am not denying church policy. But there is a difference between being anti-slavery and not proselytizing to black slaves or encouraging black immigration during the time period. I freely admit that there was what we now consider racist views against blacks in Churhc history. I'm not trying to downplay this. However, what most Mormon historians find unusual about Mormon views is that their views were circular. They didn't believe in slavery, but yet they allowed for it, and had policies (as did many other churches) toward slaves. Then they had a policy against blacks. Then they didn't. It is a full circle - which is unusual when compared to other churches such as the southern baptist convention. I'll add in appropriate references (those dealing with paul's view on slaves, us as slaves of satan, us as slaves of Christ, etc. are irrelevant) as a temporary sub-page, so you can see the references.  Unfortunately, anti-mormon sites don't give the good quotes as well. :^) -Visorstuff 15:33, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  An example  

message: Here’s the Cain quote – interesting that it doesn’t say Cain was black, but describes him as having "dark skin" and "covered with hair." Not sure if appropriate for this article, but is interesting.  
:On the sad character Cain, an interesting story comes to us from Lycurgus A. Wilson's book on the life of David W. Patten… giving his recollection of David Patten's account of meeting "a very remarkable person who had represented himself as being Cain."
:As I was riding along the road on my mule I suddenly noticed a very strange personage walking beside me. . . . His head was about even with my shoulders as I sat in my saddle. He wore no clothing, but was covered with hair. His skin was very dark. I asked him where he dwelt and he replied that he had no home, that he was a wanderer in the earth and traveled to and fro. He said he was a very miserable creature, that he had earnestly sought death during his sojourn upon the earth, but that he could not die, and his mission was to destroy the souls of men. About the time he expressed himself thus, I rebuked him in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by virtue of the Holy Priesthood, and commanded him to go hence, and he immediately departed out of my sight.... - Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.127-128
COGDEN, I think I’ve been confusing this with the "destroyer" on the water incident in Smith’s life. I’ve read some speculation that the "Destroyer" was not Satan, but Cain. Speculative only, so no tie between the two should be given. 
:On the 9th, in company with ten Elders, I left Independence landing for Kirtland. We started down the river in canoes, and went the first day as far as Fort Osage, where we had an excellent wild turkey for supper. Nothing very important occurred till the third day, when many of the dangers so common upon the western waters, manifested themselves; and after we had encamped upon the bank of the river, at McIlwaine's Bend, Brother Phelps, in open vision by daylight, saw the destroyer in his most horrible power, ride upon the face of the waters; others heard the noise, but saw not the vision. The next morning after prayer, I received the following (D&C Section 61). (HC, Vol. 1, pp. 202-203) -Visorstuff 17:14, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Description of Cain