Talk:Jesus/Christian views in intro/Archive 4

message: I have no problem deleting it. Any comments? --CTSWyneken 13:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not want to accuse any editors or anything, however I believe that the inclusion of the Creed references was an attempt to exclude certain 'Christian' groups that do not accept the Creed. The question is, how important to the majority of Christians is the Creed, and who exactly are we excluding by mentioning it? I can see a case for leaving it in and for excluding it.--Andrew c 15:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually it was the other way around: there was a dispute over how to word the Christian views subparagraph (not yet a full paragraph) and whether to include nontrinitarian views. My proposed (and accepted) compromise was to attribute the views that were already there to those Christians who affirm the Nicene Creed, while also acknowledging that there were other Christians who believe the creed misinterprets scipture. This was all discussed at the beginning of Talk:Jesus/Christian views in intro/Archive 1. However, as I said earlier, I see no real need to mention both Trinitarianism and the creed itself.  Grigory Deepdelver AKA Arch O. LaTalkTCF 16:14, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text: It seems that the whole point of including the creed is to indicate Trinitarianism, and since that is now explicitly mentioned, the creed reference can go. I mean, apart from the Trinity, I think that everything else in the creed is affirmed by all the various "flavors" of people who take the title "Christian." So I see no problem with getting rid of the mention of the creed. --MonkeeSage 16:39, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct, especially since we moved the "Nicene bracket" back a couple of sentences. I suggested the creed last January because we were discussing the historical roots of trinitarian beliefs, and also because Aiden's summary quite frankly sounded to me like a paraphrase of the second article of the creed. We kept the creed reference later because it provided a transition from the previous paragraph about historicity. Now, however, direct reference to the creed sounds redundant even to me. Grigory Deepdelver AKA Arch O. LaTalkTCF 16:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text:  How do we accomodate those who affirm the doctrines in the creed, but reject creeds themselves? ("No creed but Christ") --CTSWyneken 18:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is just me thinking out loud (mabye I'm wrong!), but I think that such people are a small enough minority that they do no warrent specific inclusion. Aside from such a view being unintelligible (because "no creed but Christ" is a creed in itself), I think that the large majority of Christianity accepts secondary, uninspired creeds as a necessary part of the life of the Church; in practice if not in word. --MonkeeSage 19:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The large majority of Christianity (Catholicism+Eastern Orthodoxy+Oriental Orthodoxy+Assyrian Church of the East+Lutheranism+Reformed+Methodist+Anglican, at least) accepts the Nicene Creed in full.  Can you provide any evidence that the groups which accept the content of the Nicene Creed but not the idea of creeds are any less significant than non-trinitarian groups? john k 19:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text:  It is a minority, but not a small one. I do not argue for the logic of the position (I'm a Lutheran seminary staff member, after all! We add a whole volume of creeds! ;-) ) The Baptist tradition, especially the Southern Baptists, and the Restorationist movements (Churches of God, Churches of Christ, Christian Church -- Disciples of Christ, etc.) and I believe the Mennonites and the Amish are there. The point (as they make it) is that the Bible alone has authority and each believer is required to allegiance to it. Anyway, these fit my prior description. They are confessors in the doctrines of the ancient symbols, but oppose symbols themselves. --CTSWyneken 21:09, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text: What these folks are saying is that we should not require any specific human statement. Human words are not God's and we should obey only God's Word alone. If we buy this or not is not relevant. The fact that significant groups would be offended that we suggested they believe in a creed is enough for us to avoid the offense, if possible. --CTSWyneken 02:43, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we did, in fact, agree to remove the creed from the paragraph, and have implemented that decision. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 06:39, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was just reading through Archive 1. Oh how far we've come. It got pretty heated, too. —Aiden 03:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not as heated as paragraph 2. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 05:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nicene Creed in Third paragraph