Talk:North Africa

message: The Edit War apparently starting some time in 2017 has rendered this article an utter mess.
# Map: now shows Morocco, excludes Western Saharan territory, which is highly unstandard. Regardless of territorial views, the Western Saharan territory is typically included in North Africa. Equally the Northern Sudan is usually included and here is excluded. I gather from reading this page due to non-encyclopaedic racialist reasoning. I will put back in the Jan 2017 map which is encyclaedic and shows both core and 'wider' territory that is frequently but not always included in North Africa as a geographic term in the ordinary English usage. 
# False citation claims for example it is asserted in the first paragraph that US Census bureau defines North African. In fact the cited US Census documentation asserts no specific 'North African' definition at all. The linked / cited documents dating from 2006 to 2015 cite a general category of variously named "Near Eastern and North African" or "Middle Eastern and North African" ethnicities / populations including countries but assert no specific definition of the Region itself, only the broader conceptual geographic region of Middle-East [aka Near East] and North Africa. The claim in the text that North Africa is actually defined in these cites is simply false. It is implied, but with no definitional precision and certainly is not a strong source for a geographic region (insofar as the US Census is ... well the American bureau for its internal population, not an international agency.
# Idiosyncratic Non Encyclopaedic definitions / Inclusions: It is typically the case that Wikipedia seeks not to assert de novo idiosyncratic definitions. The addition of for example the Italian islands is strange and bizzare. I have literally in 25 years of professional work in the MENA region never seen anyone include the Italian islands as part of North Africa. Unless there is some source Ex Wikipedia supporting this, they should be removed. Equally the inclusion of the Canary Islands is entirely unsupported - the citations given contain zero support for the inclusion. The US Census Bureau makes no mention of the Canaries as North Africa and the link to a graphic on the UN geographic regions is apparently mistakenly using non-colouration as a basis. The actual Wiki article on the UN regions for Africa shows clearly the country definition (supported by proper citation and found directly on https://unstats.un.org/unsd/methodology/m49/ under geographic regions definition.
# Contradictory and incoherent country list: The country listing doubles up for example the Western Sahara and SADR - the same bloody territory - that is excluded incoherently on the map. It includes of course as noted above the strange assertion on the Canaries, the Italian islands, etc. which has no support in general usage of the term and is a de novo definition being created on wikipedia (presumably based on geological basis, but that does not figure in the geographic usage which is geo-political.
As ten years ago I participated in a prior bit of madness by a rather similar banned sockpuppet Mariam83, I will proceed to editing now.
--collounsbury (talk) 11:34, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: But hey, what do I know, this is just another example of how Wikipedia favours the editor's own views rather than scientifically observable and accepted facts. The contradiction between Collounsbury's claims and the Wikipedia Africa page speaks volumes about the encyclopedic quality of Wikipedia as a whole. 5.148.51.52 (talk) 02:03, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  North Africa Definition PoV War - Article Mess needs substantial revert/cleanup 

message: Is it really an unadulterated fact that Sudan is part of North Africa? Shouldn't that be in the Sub-Saharan Africa article? 41.245.142.30 (talk) 14:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, socks of Mariam83 pop up every few months to say the same thing.  --Kralizec! (talk) 01:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The UN document  is the basis of the article and there Sudan is Nort Afrika.--Stone (talk) 11:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

text: This is the sa e problem as your belief that the tern Nile Valley excludes Sudan despite the sources. We go by what reliable sources say, not editors' opinions. Doug Weller talk 19:39, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Sudan?

message: Is anyone having reliable proof that Sudan is North Africa, and not in Sub-Saharan Africa, or else it should be removed. Yes. 41.245.148.16 (talk) 15:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The UN document  is the basis of the article and there Sudan is Nort Afrika.--Stone (talk) 11:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sudan proof? 

message: *And the South Sudan is Central Africa..!!
::The UN document  is the basis of the article and there Sudan is Nort Afrika.--Stone (talk) 11:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Sudan is Sahel and not North Africa

message: Western Sahara is a territory and not a country. It's actually administered by the kingdom of Morocco. The presence of Western Sahara in the table is definitely justified if the term TERRITORY is associated to Western Sahara. The flag associated to Western Sahara is presented here as if Western Sahara is a sovereign country while it's not according to the UN. The flag put beside Western Sahara is the flag of the separatist faction Polisario Front claiming independence of the Western Sahara and backed in Tindouf south Algeria. My proposal is to mention "Western Sahara territory" without flag. That's exactly what the UNHCR is mentioning in its official website.--Moroccansahraoui (talk) 09:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Western Sahara Case and Flag 

message: sudan not is north africa; sudan is sahel..UN is a corruptive organization and ilegitime - pseudoscientific..only north sudan and northeast is north africa; central, south, southwest sudan is northeast of central africa..  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.114.192.174 (talk) 11:07, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: sudan 2

message: Today South Sudan separated from Sudan and became a sovereign state.  The map should be updated to include the border between Sudan and South Sudan.  Thanks.  Vis-a-visconti (talk) 23:52, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Is South Sudan part of North Africa? It is not in the sources, I know technically it is, but politically, culturally, etc it is most def not.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 08:28, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree but the U.N has decided to put it in North Africa region, which doesn't make sens. Tachfin (talk) 16:47, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: South Sudan is now a part of East Africa. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:01, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  South Sudan 

message: Is South Sudan actually part of North Africa? Sudan was/is listed as North Africa, but surely not South Sudan?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.117.234 (talk) 16:25, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  South Sudan 

message: Sudan and Mauritania are Sahel, NOT North Africa!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.186.16.212 (talk) 10:59, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sudan and Mauritania 

message: While Sudan is definitely part of North Africa, I don't think South Sudan can be, geographically or politically, considered in North Africa. I've removed this from the article. 203.206.101.76 (talk) 09:16, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  South Sudan 

message: Should the Spanish areas geographically in North Africa, next to Morocco, like Ceuta, be added to the article? Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 02:45, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spain 

message: * 
This list includes dependent territories within their sovereign states (including uninhabited territories), but does not include claims on Antarctica.  EEZ+TIA is exclusive economic zone (EEZ) plus total internal area (TIA) which includes land and internal waters.
Rank 	Country   	Area     	EEZ      	Shelf  	EEZ+TIA
1    	align=left	2,381,740	126,353  	9,985  	2,508,094
2    	align=left	1,759,540	351,589  	64,763 	2,111,129
3    	align=left	1,001,450	263,451  	61,591 	1,265,451
4    	align=left	710,850  	575,230  	115,157	1,287,780
5    	align=left	163,610  	101,857  	67,126 	265,467
Total	Total     	6,018,890	1,418,480	318,622	7,437,921
*Comment Western Sahara shouldn't be inlcuded as a part of Morocco. Only Morocco and the United States recognise Western Sahara as a part of Morocco. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:10, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Land and Water Area (Include [[Western Sahara]])

message: There is currently a lack of consensus as to which countries the geographical descriptor of North Africa should include. This region is messy, with the Maghreb, Northwestern Africa, Northeastern Africa and Middle East regional groupings all overlapping. One question that has been discussed extensively on this page in various forms, but lingered unresolved for decades, is whether to include Sudan. At present, the principle source that includes Sudan in its definition of North Africa is the UN Statistics Division, which uses the UN geo-scheme as its basis. However, the African Union, World Bank, Encylopedia Britannica sources and others exclude it. Sudan is also included as part of Northeastern Africa and the Sahel group of countries, and, in some sources, as part of East Africa. Again, it is principally the UN Statistics Division that excludes it from East Africa. Should Sudan be included in North Africa? Please comment below. Iskandar 323 (talk) 13:30, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment  Ah, well perhaps I could have phrased the proposition slightly better. I suppose the question could also be outlined as: should Sudan be considered as part of North Africa in terms of the working definition of this page? I.e.: Should Sudan be discussed in detail on this page? OR, should it be noted at the top of the page that Sudan is included in some but not most definitions, and then proceed on that basis? Iskandar323 (talk) 17:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The point of my above comments is what do the sources say? You mention that some include Sudan. Without some major overriding justification there's no reason to exclude.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 21:53, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

text: So yeah that's pretty much what I said.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 16:39, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for comment - inclusion of Sudan

message: Mauritania is not on the map? 2A02:27B0:4B04:8870:CCF8:2A17:F843:E004 (talk) 21:41, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The Sudan should be added on the map. It is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:19, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mauritania should be added on the map (green colour). 

message: *See previous discussion
* Question Looking at MOS:REDUNDANCY wouldn't this be a good article to not start with the article name? Something like  Shazback (talk) 13:49, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Threaded Discussion

message: The article includes Mauritania, but the map does not. Previous discussions seem divided. Senorangel (talk) 01:17, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mauritania