Talk:Architecture of Russia/Archive 1

message: User:Ghirlandajo, you are showing a bad example to the novice Wikipedia editors, particularly User:AndriyK. Now he should be completely lost about the wikipedia rules and may actually never grow to respect other people's works.
Now the discussion page is linked between Russian architecture and Architecture of Rus, but the articles themselves and their histories are separated. abakharev 10:26, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving articles by cut and paste 

message: There doesn't seem to be much point in continuing to prevent further edits to this article.  There has been no substantive discussion her in over a week. I'm unprotecting. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 16:52, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Unprotecting

message: If I might add a fresh opinion to this old debate, I think it's worth taking a step back from individual words in the article. This entire talk page is a giant monument to bias, and the innocent article is a victim to a grander cause that has nothing to do with architecture. Whether St Sophia is called Russian is of no relevance to an architect or an art student. This only matters to a handful of Ukrainian nationalists. Just take a look at the pro-Ukrainian crew contributions: how much are they contributing about architecture, and how much are they contributing about non-Russian Ukraine?
The entire discussion is revisionism, aiming to satisfy the latest extremist views. Just ask yourself this. If you went back to the year 1054, and asked St Sophia's architect "Is your cathedral Russian or Kievan?", what would his answer be? He'd look at you funny and scoff. 
The troubled relationship between Russians and Ukrainians is irrelevant for things from 11th century Kiev. It should be a side note, something kept in a separate article that a more interested reader may decide to check out at his leisure. It does not deserve all the attention and scrutiny so readily given by the wiki community. There is a direct, undisputed line that leads from 12th century Kiev to 14th century Muscovy. Kievans moved en mass to Muscovy to escape the Mongol invasion; early Muscovite princes were direct descendants of the Kievan House of Rurik. It's preposterous to claim that Kievans were somehow separate, unrelated. However you attempt to re-spell it, the first legal codex of Kievan Rus was called the Ruskaya Pravda. If that had the word Russian in it, so may the churches its writers built. 
(P.S. I just discovered the Russkaya Pravda talk page and I'm too tired to post there, but anyone with even cursory knowledge of the language actually used in the 'Eastern Slavic territory' at the time of its writing will know that it was common to spell the word "Russian" with one s, even in documents written in Muscovy hundreds of years later.) 24.164.154.130 06:14, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Take a deep breath 

message: Here is something nice from www.otechestvo.org.ua
::Я вспоминаю москвичей, приехавших к нам по работе. Я сопровождал их по историческим местам Киева и видел, как трепетно они относятся к нашей общей истории, как ошеломляет их тысячелетняя древность Софии и Лавры. Тем более, как оказалось, у большинства из них украинские корни. Харьков, Днепропетровск, Одесса, Киев – эти города они знают не понаслышке, они в них жили и учились. И я вижу в их глазах недоумение – неужели эти с детства и юности родные места уже другая страна? Этот вопрос также мучает и меня. 
::Киевская Русь объединяла земли от Киева до Новгорода, Суздаля, Владимира, Галича. Это значит, что практически вся европейская часть Украины и России – это и была Киевская Русь. Святая равноапостольная княгиня Ольга родом была из-под Пскова. Святой князь Андрей Боголюбский, внук Владимира Мономаха и старший сын Юрия Долгорукого – основателя Москвы, был князем Вышгородским, затем Владимирским и Суздальским. И как бы не переписывали историю сегодняшние соблазнители, это история наша общая. 
--Kuban kazak 11:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: A nice article on the topic of your dispute

message: Who is in favour of including all of the architecture of Kievan Rus in the article "Russian architecture"?
As indicated already many times, none of the opposing editors are against this article referencing all of Kievan, Byzantine, Greek, and other architectures as examples of style. The question needs to be reformulated. Right now it sounds misleading. It does not reflect the point of this dispute. Consider the following: Who is in favor of not acknowledging national and chronological ownership of the Kievan Rus temples mentioned in this article?--Andrew Alexander 04:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Survey 

message: # Michael Z. 2005-12-14 07:23 Z
# Ghirlandajo 11:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  In favour 

message: # Oppose --AndriyK 11:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opposed 

message: * Russia did not exist at that time. Therefore, the architecture of Kievan Rus cannot be "Russian" if looking from historical perspective. 
* On the other hand, all buildings located on the territory of the present-day Russia (including those built in the time of Kievan Rus) may be classified as Russian architecture in geographical sence and therefore may be described in the article.
* Architecture of Kiev, Chernihiv and other Ukrainian cities and towns does not belong to Russian architecture in any sence. Here is a simple example:
** There are structures built in the times of Roman Empire on the territioris of the present-day Germany, France, Spain and many other european countries. Nobody call them "Italian architecture".
** Nobody would describe ancient buildings located in Rome as "French architecture", "Spanish architecture" or "German architecture", although many Europien nations may consider people of Roman Empire as their historical, cultural or even genetic ancestors.
*Any influencies of Bysantine, Kievan or any other styles on Russian architecture of cause can be mentioned. But such points should be clearly formulated.
*Architecture of Kievan Rus as whole may be described in a separate article.--AndriyK 11:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: *And please note that inviting users from Maidan will this time be answered with inviting users from Anti-Orange and Edinoe Otechestvo should they appear. -- Kuban kazak 12:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: Latinus, your work is appreciated but the tag is totally inappropriate. To insist on the tag, the tagger must first list the objections and the community must in good faith address them in an attempt to satisfy the objections of the tagger. A healthy debate should ensue. This all already happened here. If the tagger is simply a troll, he would take a position of persisting and refusing to agree on anything other than to satisfy his fringe out of mainstream view. No way we can afford to allow trolls to pick any articles they want, tag them and enjoy their fringe POV getting prominence by damaging a good article. The way to distinguish between the valid objections that the community yet failed to address but trying in good faith and trollish stubborn persistence of some individuals, is to see whether the consensus finds the article agreeable. This was done and the straw poll was conducted. Once the community determines that the objections are simple trollism the tag cannot be kept based on the same objections. If anyone wants to retag the article again, the new objections must be brought up. Repeating the old ones, discussed and rejected by the community is simple pestering. Unless AndriyK or anyone has any new objections, they can't have the tag because if it is attempted to be justified by the old objections it is as good as unjustified at all. --Irpen 20:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If AndriyK is actually placing the tag out of bad faith or is trolling in some other way, then the guidelines say that the best way to deal with the problem is to form a consensus to keep them in their place. If there already is a consensus that the old version is OK, then that's that and all he can do is post any objections on the talk page. If he indeed doesn't have any new arguments since the straw poll, then he shouldn't be placing the tag. I must say - if he does not intend to persue dispute resolution, then there is no point in him adding the tag at all. --Latinus 20:43, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

text: BTW you didn't give your views on my little attempt to solve this before reverting - I understand that it may have been totally inappropriate as I based it on the relatively limited knowledge I have on the matter, but it would be nice to know :-) --Latinus 20:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Latinus, I didn't revert you. I went over your edit. Some things you wrote were touched in the previous paragraph. I expanded that previous paragraph taking into acount your edit and restorred the following paragraph since the repetition seemed redundant. I apreciate your involvement. --Irpen 21:02, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

text: What are you on about there was a vote, earlier in this talk page which you lost! You do not accept the results of that vote? Then it is an RfC or a mediation, whichever suits you best. Do read WP:AGF! --Kuban Cossack 21:25, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reminder of a common sense on tagging