Talk:Closeted

message: This article seems to focus only on sex oriented discrimination, but what about atheism?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agameofchess (talk • contribs) 23:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Other areas

message: We should move this page to "coming out". That would be a lot more positive and empowering than naming the article about the oppressive "closet"! --Sonjaaa 11:09, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
:No, we should not. For one thing, that would be POV. For another, coming out already has its own article, and "the closet" is a seperate concept, despite the direct relation between the two terms/concepts. It is not really Wikipedia's job to be "a lot more positive and empowering"; Wikipedia is not here to empower gays, bisexuals or transgendereds any more than it is to empower Republicans or Democrats or women or men or any other group. The only thing Wikipedia is here for is to be a neutral source for information. Also, the concept of "the closet" is not in and of itself usually seen as "oppressive", but rather, most that support LGBT rights and issues seem to feel that the social forces that make people stay in "the closet" are oppressive. Hence, your suggestion - unless in pure jest - would represent a minority-within-a-minority view, be POV, AND be inaccurate, in that it would redefine a specific concept ("the closet") as another related-but-distinct concept("coming out"). Additionally, suggesting a "move" instead of a merge actually suggests changing "coming out" to the page that "the closet" is, and that would be even worse! ;) Runa27 05:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: move to "coming out"

message: There's already a closet article which covers much of the same ground, though it could stand to be expanded, and some of its current language is (IMO) problematic. There is also a coming out article. Time to let this one go? --Hob 17:42, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind - I see lots of stuff links to the closet and it makes sense to have a separate article for this usage. I got rid of the redundant (and poorly written) text in closet and added a link from there to here. However, I do think this article could use a slight rewrite to clarify that it's a specialization of a pre-existing metaphor, and I agree that Closet doesn't need to be capitalized in the title. --Hob 18:14, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: already a [[closet]] article

message: A usage question from a guy who is straight, socially inept, and GLBT-friendly: I have recently seen comments from several celebrities Tim Curry, Sean Hayes stating that they "don't publically discuss their private lives". Is this the same as being in the closet or isn't it? -- 25 November 2005
:The term may be used that way (I'd guess usually not, what would be in the closet would be details not identification), see The closet#Other uses. Hyacinth 11:01, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Curry and Hayes were referring not to "the closet" but to the phenomenon of "the open secret." "The closet" implies the keeping of an absolute secret.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.17.178.22 (talk) 20:57, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Usage question

message: In the article:
:... he explored in depth the harm caused both to the closeted individual and to society in general by being in the closet.
This sentence assumes the truth of the point of view that being in the clost harms both society and the individual. Is this POV universally held?
If not, what's the best way to mention opposing points of view? posted by --Uncle Ed 19:57, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I dunno, are there people who think remaining in the closet about one's sexuality isn't harmful?  I mean, certainly there are people who believe that one can and should change their sexuality, but that's a different matter entirely, and to change requires that one acknowledge openly that their sexuality is what it is (for now).  Alternately, "he explored in depth" seems to indicate that the rest of the sentence is exploring a particular individual's POV, which seems to fall acceptably within NPOV territory.  -Seth Mahoney 20:01, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not entirely sure that it should have any info on the benefit or harm of these options, though it would be acceptable, I think, to have info on whether or not such-and-such a (well-known, influential, etc.) group says this or that about these options (for example, I believe the APA has made statements to the effect that it is not psychologically healthy to remain in denial about one's sexuality - this would be appropriate material).  Regarding the second option, homosexuality is problematic in that the line between accepting and being open regarding one's sexuality and handing out flyers about exactly what you do in bed is surprisingly thin and difficult to find.  The very fact that it is generally assumed by default that everyone is heterosexual tends to make coming out, even among close family and friends, a continual process, and regular things that everyone does, such as mentioning a girlfriend or boyfriend, can in the case of a gay person invoke in others' minds pleasant or unpleasant images of sex that wouldn't necessarily happen with a straight person.  Anyway, I'm not at all arguing against changing this article - it needs work.  But I'd recommend being careful about which direction to take it, since it could too easily stray into polemic either way.  -Seth Mahoney 03:00, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Is the closet harmful?

message: "In Beyoncé's 2006 single "Irreplaceable" 'the closet' is referred to as a place where unwanted memories of past relationships can be suppressed."  Is there any citation for this comment?  I am no Beyonce scholar but after hearing that song ad-nauseam I am relatively certain the closet in that song refers to nothing metaphorically.  Joeytsai 06:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Beyonce?

message: I really disagree with the two premises of this article: 1) that the closet is mainly a psychoanalytic term, and 2) that it has anything particular to do with the unconscious or subconscious. 
1) A lot of discussions of the closet (including my book, "Epistemology of the Closet") use psychoanalytic tools or vocabulary to discuss closetedness and its effects.  That's because psychoanalysis was the main discourse available in the 20th century for discussing psychological processes with any degree of complexity. For the same reason, many terms that spring from the 20th century, like this usage of "the closet," are marked in various ways by psychoanalytic assumptions.  But the closet is not a term that originated within psychoanalysis and it is not particularly used there.  Psychoanalysis seems like an unhelpful way of framing this entry.
2)  The unconscious (or subconscious) in particular is minimally relevant to the closet. *By definition*, someone who is deliberately in the closet is conscious of, and trying to conceal, same-sex attractions or activities. (This is true whether or not the person would actually  define themselves as homosexual.)  
By contrast to the closet, the category of "latent homosexual," which had a lot of currency in the 1950s and 60s (e.g. Deborah Kerr's husband in "Tea and Sympathy") really WAS about people who repressed their same-sex desires (i.e. relegated them to an unconscious status)--and it really WAS a psychoanalytic category.  One of the dangers of this entry, as it stands, is that it invites a confusion between in the closet and being a latent homosexual.      --Eve Sedgwick
::I agree.
:::Good point.EyePhoenix (talk) 19:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead In and Premise of the article

message: There doesn't seem to be any mention of the fact that, perhaps unknown to younger editors, that it was actually the practice to use real closets as a place where (perhaps only adolescents) performed taboo sex acts. Thus, "in the closet" was, I can tell you from experience, at least at one time, more than just a metaphor. 74.78.162.229 (talk) 11:24, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Actual Closet 

message: Usage of the term "closeted" commonly applies to LGBT people but not those "who engage in kinky sexual behaviors such as BDSM or fetishes." Yet this phrase has been erroneously tacked on to the article's introduction without adequate sources.
Most people's intimate sexual behaviors are "closeted" or undisclosed whether what they do in private is "kinky" or not. Paraphiles do not endure a "life-shaping pattern of concealment" as typically they don't need to reveal their fetishes to anyone but their partners. This reference validates my point. Its an advice column in which a reader feels that she has to "come out" as a masochist only because her mother is asking about her noticeable bruises. 
Sexual orientation and gender identity encompass much more than sex, but lumping in paraphilia promotes the canard that homosexuality and transsexualism are "alternative lifestyle" choices rather than innate conditions. Use of "the closet" in reference to paraphiles is not common at all. In fact I found far more references to closet drinkers than to closet fetishists. I will move the phrase to a more suitable place. Am86 (talk) 05:29, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Your concerns are valid but mistaken. BDSM, leather, kink and polysexual issues are indeed the same as LGBT people. I'm re-adding this but I'm open to clarifying it if we can do so NPOV. Many issues regarding LGBT people, in fact, have been aided by "strait" allies who were aware that their own closet sexual behaviours were demonized in much the same ways. Our job is to report what is applicable to this subject not filter away content we think taints it in some way.  -- Banjeboi 09:52, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "Closeted" sexual behavior

message: I think it would be helpful to have a section on the different types of closets, rather than try to discuss them all in the intro.  This would allow us to go into further detail into the different cultures associated with each type.  To discuss the broom closet in the introduction, and then have the article talk about people who are closeted about their sexual orientation only serves to confuse the reader.  The intro should be a summary of the article.  The broom closet idea can then be further developed in the main article, but the intro is not the place to do it. Joshuajohanson (talk) 17:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What a coincidence: Just before, I re-organized the article to free up the lead for further development elsewhere. --CJ Withers (talk) 20:22, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The culture of closeted people on the down-low is completely different than those who consciously reject a gay identity without having gay sex. I think it would be worthwhile to explore the different cultures and attitudes of the different types. Joshuajohanson (talk) 21:04, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

text: I'm working on it.  The categories I have right now are Closeted sexual and gender identity, Closeted sexual behavior, and Closeted sexual orientation. Joshuajohanson (talk) 21:12, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Types of closeted people 

message: The First Paragraph reads:
"A survey by The Social Organization of Sexuality in which 150 women and 143 men reported any same-sex sexuality (desire, sex, identity) found that among men who reported any same-sex-oriented sexuality, 22% had same-sex activity while 44% felt desire but had never acted upon it. The corresponding numbers for women who reported any same-sex-oriented sexuality were 13% and 59%. Only 24% and 15%, respectively, identified as LGB in addition to feeling desire and having same-sex activity.[1]"
While interesting, this does not necessary pertain to the closet metaphor.  Just because one has same sex attractions does not make them a closeted homosexual.  In a sense I think that this is further reason for more clarity on what the closet really is.
JB2007 23:40, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  1st Paragraph 

message: I would just like to reitterate a point made by Dr. Eve Sedgwick earlier in this discussion section.  This article seems to confound the categories of "the closet" and "latent homosexual".  Would we say that Ted Haggard was in the closet or was a latent homosexual?  This distinction should be made clear.
24.118.209.148 (talk) 14:06, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latent homosexuality versus the closet 

message: I think the term/concept is prevalent enough in pop culture that there could be a section in the article about its usage.
70.240.66.38 (talk) 20:59, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  In popular culture 

message: While the below statement may very well be true.  It does not pertain to the closet.  Therefore I am taking it out of the article.
In 2009 the American Psychological Association affirmed that even though there is no evidence therapy can change sexual orientation, some clients' religious identity may transcend affirming an LGB identity and coming out.[3][4]  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Burr0108 (talk • contribs) 02:15, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Reparative therapy is not about the closet

message: — Assignment last updated by Wackernagels (talk) 16:10, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Sexuality in World Civilizations I