Talk:Sheol

message: I think the reference "Ecclesiastes" should be comented further. By following this link I learned that the Ecclesiastes doesn't seem to be considered body of Hebrew poetry but a later greek text, therefore no wonder the similarities to Hades of greek mythology.
:Do you mean Ecclesiastes or Ecclesiasticus? AnonMoos 21:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ecclesiastes 

message: The article seams a little bit confused about what view it is presenting. The interpretation of Sheol as where the dead are and similar to Hades is a historical-critical idea. It is not necessarily a secular or non-theistic idea. Most critical Bible scholars are Christians or Jews, after all.    —Preceding unsigned comment added by MathHisSci (talk • contribs) 23:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Historical-critical, not non-theistic

message: Who wrote this first paragraph, William Faulkner or Cormac McCarthy? BrianGCrawfordMA 20:21, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: First Paragraph

message: The article Sheh-ole discusses the alternative spelling of Sheol as used by Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries. It's not exactly clear to me from this that Sheh-ole is actually the alternate spelling vs. a pronunciation guide. However, if that can be sourced, then it should be dealt with in this article vs. a separate article. Alternate spellings do not require separate articles and any variances in meaning should be dealt with in a central place. Any other thoughts on this? -- JLaTondre 22:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Checking my (printed copy of Strong, Sheh-ole is clearly a pronunciation guide, not an alternative spelling. The standard transliteration is Sheol. If we're going to include a pronunciation guide then we need a proper rendering in modern phonetics, not Strong's attempt at it (which is, after all, well over 100 years old). I haven't time to do the merge myself, but it definitely needs to be done. JGF Wilks 12:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sheh-ole Merge 

message: I don't understand if Sheol is a concept that most Jews believe(d) in.  It was my understanding, from what I was taught in Hebrew school, that there is no Jewish afterlife.  You die, your body decomposes and that's it.
:At the very least, this article needs to be reconciled with Jewish eschatology#The afterlife and olam haba (the "world to come").--Mathew5000 16:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I don't get a grip on wheter there is an afterlife in Jewish belief, or if there's not. I understand that there probably are many answers, but like Mathew5000 said - this article needs to be reconciled with this one. /Chebab 14:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

text: The immortal soul is one of the concepts that every Jew is obligated to believe, according to Jewish law. 84.110.218.18 (talk) 13:16, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It's certainly part of Judaism, but post-Biblical (see comment of 01:52, 2 January 2022 below)... AnonMoos (talk) 00:38, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Has mainstream Judaism believed in an afterlife? 

message: :The immortal soul is one of the concepts that every Jew is obligated to believe, according to Jewish law. 84.110.218.18 (talk) 13:16, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It's certainly part of Judaism, but post-Biblical (see comment of 01:52, 2 January 2022 below)... AnonMoos (talk) 00:38, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: 2023

message: If one refers to the discourse on Hades by the ancient Jewish historian Flavius Josephus it will point out conclusively that Sheol IS a holding place of the dead prior to their Judgement by God.  
Also, there is an old Catholic saying of how Jesus, after his death, "Desended" into Sheol to retrieve the souls of the righteous and lead them into Heaven.  I don't believe this is used any longer due to the negative connotation concerning Jesus entering "Hell".
:It's not "an old Catholic saying". It's current theology and is stated on a daily basis by (likely) 100s of millions of Catholics via the Apostle's Creed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles%27_Creed  (which is also used by Lutherans as well as many other denominations). You can reference the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 631-637 for more information http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a5p1.htm. 68.99.131.137 (talk) 21:58, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Josephus & Catholicism 

message: I changed "academic" to "secular." The idea that Sheol is the Christian Hell can be taught in an academic setting. Someone else just made the same change (academic to secular) on Purgatory. Jonathan Tweet 05:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article needs a "secular outlook" section so that readers can learn what the secular view is (alongside various religious views). If there is secular scholarship equating sheol to hell, add it to the section and cite it. Jonathan Tweet 23:50, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Secular outlook 

message: :For example this sentence in article: "With the codification of Rabbinical Judaism and the Talmud, Jewish theology concerning the afterlife had largely abandoned the concept of a single destination for all mankind after death and adopted the more recognizable model which espoused a place of reward for the righteous, and a place of punishment for the wicked called Gehinnom."
:This is incorrect. Gehinnom may well be equated with Sheol. However, it's a place or state after death somewhat equivalent to Purgatory. Nearly every soul will experience some sufferring in the afterlife according to its deeds, and nearly every soul will then be admitted to Paradise for the Eternal Reward, according to its deeds. This is "Jewish theology concerning the afterlife" apparent "with the codification of Rabbinical Judaism and the Talmud". This is why the description in the article is alien to Jews who read it. Drsruli (talk) 01:38, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: 2022

message: This website has a pretty good spiel about Sheol in the Old Testament. It's also called the Pit in the Old Testament. Should consider it as an external link at the bottom of the article? http://www.cupofwrath.com/risen-dust/01-hell-OT.php 71.233.140.67 (talk) 06:13, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Deleting it as a personal website. Fails our guidelines and is pushing an online book. Dougweller (talk) 06:17, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you did ask if there were any objections, and personal websites, however many there are, are generally not meant to be linked to articles. See WP:ELNO. This is just someone's personal take on various things, and fails the 1st criterion as well. Bits of it fail 2, Creationist links may be ok in Creationist articles but not generally, and whoever Doug Buckley is I've no reason to think he's an expert or even represents any typical view on this. In fact, his website seems a pretty unknown one, with an Alexa rating 3 month avg 0.000005% - in other words hardly ever visited. Dougweller (talk) 20:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Information About Sheol 

message: In modern Hebrew this word is used in translations of Greek Mythology instead of Hades. TFighterPilot (talk) 16:17, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern Hebrew 

message: It seems extremely odd to me that there would be a section that simply states that debate continues, without giving any detail on the nature of that debate.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.236.187.164 (talk) 22:23, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What it's saying is that the state of scholarship in the area is still somewhat unsettled... AnonMoos (talk) 23:47, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead Sea Scrolls 

message: The section "Sheol in the Hebrew Bible" contains a closing statement that smells of POV (and poor Biblical scholarship, to boot):
The first portion of the statement is accurate enough, in that there are a very few examples in the Tanakh (e.g., Enoch and Elijah) of people whom god chose to reward with some kind of ambiguous after-death condition other than Sheol. The objections, however, are the statements equating this Jewish idea specifically with the Christian concept of "Heaven". Equating the vague notion of "an alternative to Sheol" (which is reserved for only a handful of individuals in the entirety of the Tanakh) with the highly evolved New Testament idea of Heaven (which according to the some parts of the New Testament anyone can aspire to receive) is an egregious stretch, and one that I'm not aware any serious Jewish or Christian scholar has made. There are no references given for this claim, and it strikes me as a Christian attempt to argue, through vague implication, that the New Testament concept of Heaven is somehow rooted in and compatible with Judaism. It is not. As well, notice that the statement relies on the use of "weasel words" like appears to be and seems to parallel in order to make its case. As such, I placed a "citation needed" reference at the end of the aforementioned paragraph, and would further stress that any potential references from Christian sources should be treated with skepticism, owing to the ulterior motive that the modern Christian perspective has on "reading into" the Jewish texts ideas that are wholly alien to Judaism.--Kglogauer (talk) 16:56, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV attempts to reconcile Jewish belief/nonbelief in the afterlife with Christian theology 

message: So your only example in this article of Sheol is a forbidden practice of contacting the dead inside "Sheol"; listed among other banned practices like charlatans and human sacrifice.  What's going to be remembered of Americans:  that most states passed a law banning gambling, or whatever goes on in Vegas stays in Vegas?  Gee I hope it's not the 2nd one.72.201.19.165 (talk) 09:14, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Witch of Endor is the only example 

message: Some unsourced "New Testament revelations" about the Hebrew Bible concept of Sheol were added by an IP, pointing to some unreliable website, and I will revert it. I am explaining it here, because I haven't figured out yet how to have my "rollback" application allow for the addition of an edit summary. It just does it, and I cannot add an edit summary explaining the action. warshy (¥¥) 18:13, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It was two years ago that you left this comment, User:warshy, but if you activate "Twinkle" using your "Preferences" tab, you should be able to rollback with comments. You may have already figured it out, but there it is. If you have any questions about how that works, hit up my talk page and I'll try to explain further. Alephb (talk) 15:00, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you User:Alephb. It is nice to know that people here look at these types of comments, even if it is 2 years later... Much better late than never! :) I will try Twinkle again when I have a moment. I had Twinkle to begin with a long time ago, before I was even granted the rollback feature, so now it may be a good time to try and reactivate and see if it does the job. Regards, warshy (¥¥) 18:53, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure thing. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that rollback without Twinkle simply has no way to add edit summaries. 19:12, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reversion of unsourced material addition 

message: This entry claims that Sheol is the same concept as the Greek Hades, especially in the first part of the first sentence: "She’ol , in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life", and in the sentence "The inhabitants of Sheol are the "shades" (rephaim), entities without personality or strength."  Yet not a single verse of the Hebrew Bible is quoted to support any of this claim.  She'ol usually appears to means "the grave".  There are OT verses that speak of the realm of the dead, but I don't know if they contain the word "Sheol" in them.  This article should be deleted unless someone can find support in the Hebrew Bible for what this article claims the Hebrew Bible says, and also mentions the other meanings/usages of the word. Philgoetz (talk) 03:27, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation Needed 

message: I've made quite a few changes to the article. The previous version seemed very disorganized and unfocused. I've kept what was directly related to the subject and added some clearer analysis. AlphabeticThing9 (talk) 07:28, 18 October 2021  but (UTC)
:I haven't have time yet to review all your changes with more time, more in depth, but I know this article needed a serious rewrite, in my opinion. So thank you for taking the time and doing that. Hopefully I will be able to offer some input sometime soon. Good luck, enjoy, warshy (¥¥) 14:57, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I think I see the issue. In undoing the unsensible reversion of the page to a past version, I accidentally caught a contribution you had made in the meantime. I've re-added your contribution. Let me know if you have further concerns. AlphabeticThing9 (talk) 04:00, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: AlphabeticThing9, all major statements in articles must be sourced, and sources must be academic (at least for academic articles, which this is). Plus, of course, Hades has no connection to Sheol. Achar Sva (talk) 07:11, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I...what? "Hades has no connection to Sheol"? I don't see how anybody with the faintest understanding of the topic could even begin to make such a claim. WP:COMPETENCE, you should not even be making edits on this page with such a poor understanding of the topic to be frank. 35.137.34.16 (talk) 00:41, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revamp of the article 

message: I am not Jewish, and I was surprised by the dismal picture painted by the lede:
:Sheol in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from life and from God.
Is this all Jewish theology has to say about the disposition of the dead?  This is their eternal fate?  If there is more to the story - some hope for a future "upgrade" in the status of the dead - the article should say so, in order to lighten the unjustifiably dreary tone of the article. 
There is a concept of resurrection of the dead in Judaism.  If this constitutes a potential opportunity to get out of Sheol, it should be integrated into the Sheol article. 2601:281:D47F:B960:CF1:566A:9C9B:5CE5 (talk) 22:39, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: What is referred to is the concept of Sheol as it exists in the Hebrew Bible itself.   Belief in resurrection as part of a "personal afterlife with reward or punishment" did not exist in Judaism before 200 BC, according to the link you supplied above.  It entered Judaism at least partly due to Persian influence.  The Sadducees of early Roman times famously refused to believe in such resurrection because there was nothing about it in the text of the Hebrew Bible.  It was only after the destruction of the Temple, when the Rabbis/Pharisees were the last significant faction standing, that resurrection was solidly established as Jewish doctrine... AnonMoos (talk) 01:52, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  An incomplete description of Sheol?