Talk:Abdul Karim (the Munshi)

message: I've removed the dab page regarding the former detainee.  No one has written an article about him.   The Munshi is by far the more famous of the two.  If anyone cares to write the article about the detainee, he can put a note at the top of the page. A dab page is not justified.--Wehwalt 14:14, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The other guy

message: Merging, redirecting, and renaming pages, includes a section entitled: How to rename a page. Which states:
:Do not move or rename a page by copying/pasting its content, because doing so destroys the edit history. (The GFDL requires acknowledgement of all contributors, and editors continue to hold copyright on their contributions unless they specifically give up this right. Hence it is required that edit histories be preserved for all major contributions until the normal copyright expires.) If you come across a cut-and-paste move that should be fixed by merging the page histories, please follow the instructions here to have an administrator repair it.
Cheers!  --  Geo Swan 21:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the advice.  Will you start discussing substantive matters on this talk page now?--Wehwalt 04:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cutting and pasting is a no-no 

message: I enjoyed reading about this unusual and unexpected person, whom I had never heard of before stumbling on this page.   Will Beback  talk   11:25, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Please feel free to review it at FAC.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:06, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Nice article

message: He died so young - do we really have no idea how/why? 196.44.240.61 (talk) 04:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No, there is very limited information on his life in India.  Thanks for the comment and the praise in your edit summary.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Death at 46  

message: Hi! Am just curious to know how the use of sic in the article, does not go against the principle of WP:NPOV? The use of sic reflects a particular POV, which is certainly far from neutral. Secondly, the references quoted do not seem to be verificable. For example, what does Basu, p. 22 mean? Which year, which publication, which library or archive has it been taken from? A google search for Basu leads to some "Bipasha Basu" or "British Association Of Softball Umpires". What source is "Basu" or "Anand" or any of the other references quoted. Thanks. Tinpisa (talk) 07:28, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, check the bibliography for full reference information.  I need to look at the sic.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:29, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed both "sic" templates, which were both in quotations, against the words "Hindustani" and "Hindoo".  On balance, I believe that the sic templates are unjustifed.  The reader is perfectly clear on what is being referred to.  The purpose of the sic template is so that the reader does not think the writer made a mistake in a nonstandard or mistaken spelling or usage.  I don't believe the reader is going to think we made a mistake.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:34, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. It was my mistake - I didn't realise that the details were in the bibliography. Regarding the use of "sic", the reader can surely draw his own conclusions, and you did the correct thing by removing them. One more "sic "template remains in On a journey through Italy, he published an advertisement in the Florence Gazette stating that "[h]e is belonging to a good and highly respectful famiely. [sic]".[28] . Also is the spelling of the word family, incorrect in the ad or is it a typo? Thanks once again. --Tinpisa (talk) 08:19, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That's properly there.  It was incorrect in the original, or probably we would not have bothered to directly quote!--Wehwalt (talk) 08:55, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! Have a nice day!--Tinpisa (talk) 09:02, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of [[sic]]; and incomplete references 

message: The greatest legacy of Abdul Karim was the introduction Indian cuisine to UK, if not upping its market value as when the queen ate it everybody got curious...and thus western world subsequently followed suit. Many food writers and food documentaries have mentioned this fact, not able to recall name right now though, Madhur Jaffrey or Anjum Anand. Try this article .India Today for reference... I am looking around...lets see what comes up. All the best and good work! --Ekabhishektalk 11:54, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it has much value in this article.. --Sam 15:16, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to agree.  Indian food was already in England, there are mentions of Karim and other servants seeking out Indian restaurants.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Introducing Indian cuisine in UK

message: I have found a slight error with the Urdu translation of his name. The translation of his name is the and the Abdul Karim part of his name should be عبد الكريم, because it is actually "servant" (عبد), followed by Al-Karim (الكريم), which means "servant of the most honorable [Allah]". The article has [حافظ محمد [عبدل کریم as the Urdu translation for his name. Note how the Abdul Karim part (that I have put in brackets) is different from عبد الكريم, which is the correct way to write it. Thus, it should be عبد الكريم  and NOT عبدل کریم. The incorrect one does not say "servant", nor does it say "THE MOST Honorable", rather it just says "Honorable", which does not fit because it is important to emphasize that the subject is "THE most honorable" (Allah), and not just "honorable". So all in all, the incorrect version is saying "honorable [something]", where the [something] is the invented word عبدل (if you're confused, servant is actually "عبد"). This is very different from "servant of the most honorable", which as I have said is the meaning of Abdul Karim.
Anyway, this was just to explain why I'm going to change the Urdu translation of his name. It's almost like writing "Harr Ypotter" instead of "Harry Potter"; the incorrect one doesn't make any sense at all. The writer probably used a translator or something similar to get the Urdu for his name. Hamzah1995 (talk) 17:43, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually someone added it this morning.  Dr. Kay and I did not think it necessary, and are not competent in the languages anyway.  I personally have no objection either to the addition or the correction and doubt if my colleague does, as he has made several edits since the addition.  I did delete someone who added IPA, I do not think Karim's name terribly difficult to pronounce.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:49, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that there is no need for IPA. The name is phonetic, except for the 'A' in "Abdul", which is produced from the throat, and MANY non-arabic/urdu speakers (and even few arabic/urdu speakers) cannot or have difficulty pronouncing it, so there really isn't a need to signify that; it would just confuse things. From the transliteration that I've seen on the internet, that throaty vowel sound that I mention is normally represented by an apostrophe before the vowel. For example, in this article's case, it would be: 'Abdul Karim. If there are any small edits or needs dealing with Arabic and Urdu (and maybe even Spanish), feel free to contact me to deal with it.Hamzah1995 (talk) 20:16, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, I shall add you to my list of go-to people for different things on wiki!--Wehwalt (talk) 21:45, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect Urdu/Arabic translation of his name 

message: Awaiting a WP:RS:
A feature film is in production, based on Victoria & Abdul: The True Story Of The Queen's Closest Confidant Paperback, the 2011 biography by Shrabani Basu. It stars Judi Dench and Ali Fazal in the title roles. Stephen Frears, the director, has often made films based on stories of real life characters, but has never met any of them.
:The article isn't about Frears and he obviously hasn't met Abdul Karim or Victoria. Hence, the final sentence is unnecessary. Basu's biography was published in 2010 and "paperback" is extraneous. DrKay (talk) 14:20, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Film 

message: I see from the section above "Any speculation, similar to that about John Brown, about the Munshi being Victoria's lover?" that this has already been discussed - but rather I will approach this from a different angle. The word "platonic", in this case, is an extra adjective - something which defines the relationship between Victoria and Abdul. As it is not known whether their relationship was in fact platonic or sexual (I'm not siding with either one here) it should simply say "relationship". The word "relationship" is exactly what they had - to say "platonic" would insinuate that there is overbearing proof that is was only platonic, something which this article and other references don't appear to be able to support. In short, I'm removing the word "platonic" not because it should insinuate that their relationship was more than that, but rather because it cannot be proven that it was a platonic relationship. Garchy (talk) 20:58, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said above, there's no evidence or source saying it was sexual. DrKay (talk) 21:01, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not refuting that - but I think "relationship" is a simple enough explanation without having to add "platonic", which doesn't seem to be heavily sourced either. I'm not trying to imply specifically that it was sexual (although we don't know) - just trying to remove an adjective that I didn't think was necessary for a full understanding of the topic. Garchy (talk) 21:04, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Relationship is a term which connotes a strong posssibity of sex in today's language.  I don't think it is justified.  The sources make it clear that there were many reasons that the two were unlikely to have had a sexual relationship.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:22, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Platonic relationship vs. relationship 

message: This picture is claimed to be of Queen Victoria and Abdul Karim, but the person described as Abdul Karim bears no resemblance to the other three photographs/paintings of Abdul Karim (weight, facial hair, age etc). It doesn't look like Abdul Karim from any other picture I could find using Google Images, either. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Karim_(the_Munshi)#/media/File:Queen_Victoria_and_her_Indian_servant_Abdul_Karim_in_1893.jpg
The version of this picture at the National Portrait Gallery describes the image as "Sheikh Chidda; Queen Victoria": http://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw06521/Sheikh-Chidda-Queen-Victoria  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.27.47.189 (talk) 18:21, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: In the link you've given to the NPG there is a notes section that reads "In this photograph Karim stands in attendance as the Queen works on her boxes in her garden-tent at Frogmore House in Windsor." There is also: http://npg.si.edu/exhibit/britons/briton11.htm, which identifies the attendant as Abdul Karim. DrKay (talk) 19:40, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrectly attributed picture? 

message: The ideal place to source the Urdu spelling for Abdul Kareem's name would be his gravestone, however, the best photo I can find of it (the BBC's (rather poor quality) photo) is illegible, to me at least. However, the Urdu spelling is clear from the title of a book by BBC journalist Raza Ali Abidi, ملكه وكٹوريا اور منشى عبدالكريم (roughly, Her Majesty Queen Victoria & Munshi Abdul-Kareem), where he spells "Munshi Abdul Kareem" as منشى عبدالكريم (Publisher's page, Google book digitalised copies with Urdu and English details). (Just pinging  on this.) Wasechun tashunkaHOWLTRACK 20:17, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest it should be in the infobox, in a way similar to Khruschchev.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:49, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

text: That's fine, thanks. DrKay (talk) 06:28, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I have added it to the infobox as a native name. Wasechun tashunkaHOWLTRACK 17:19, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name in Urdu 

message: Hafiz has a very particular meaning in Islam, ie: someone who has memorised the Qu'ran. Aside from one quote of a sentence written by Victoria, is there any support for the fact that he did indeed have an entitlement? Given that he for some time successfully pulled the wool over the eyes of the royal court regarding his father's status, and that Victoria was indulgent of him, I think it unwise to assign to him a title that quite possibly did not in fact apply. Or are there sources which actually discuss this? - Sitush (talk) 20:30, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Why would we doubt him? As for his father, he's trying to compete on equal social terms with people whose ancestry in the nobility goes back to William the Conquerer, and I think Victoria, no fool, saw this and declined to shame him. I do not think it wise to say, exaggeration as to one thing makes him a liar who should not be believed as to anything. Additionally, were he not, there would have been ample opportunity in his lifetime to trip him up.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:46, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Because he lied about other things for gain? I am well aware of Victorian social mores, thank you, and also of Victoria's idiosyncracies (I know her diaries were massively edited and even destroyed but those idiosyncracies shine through even in what remains of them). What I am not aware of is just how difficult or otherwise it is to memorise the Qu'ran. I did read it (in an English translation) many years ago and I certainly wouldn't want to undertake the task. - Sitush (talk) 20:57, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

text: To clarify, I do not deny that Hafiz became a part of his name but it did so because Victoria granted him the title Munshi Hafiz. It was not in her power to do so - she had no status among Islamic clergy etc. I'm not sure how best to deal with this. - Sitush (talk) 21:04, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I see. Thanks. I'm currently traveling and don't have access to the sources.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:24, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hafiz 

message: The lead claims Karim served Victoria for the last 15 years of her reign. No. I have corrected it. June 1887 to June 1901 is 14 years and she died January 1901 (Which for those who have difficulty with numbers is 13 years 7 months). I'm noting this since competency in grade school math is not as widespread as I would expect.72.16.99.93 (talk) 06:30, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  15 years 

message: How, in the name of all that is holy, have all of you missed the fact that this: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Queen_Victoria_and_her_Indian_servant_Abdul_Karim_in_1893.jpg is not Abdul Karim? A quick search reveals the individual in this photo to be a different Indian servant, Sheikh Chidda. The original uploader appears to have trusted a random Indian webpage over the National Portrait Gallery's more well-researched material. I've just submitted a name change request for the file over at Commons, but for heaven's sake, how did this escape notice for so long? Even a cursory glance at this person makes it obvious this is NOT the same person being discussed on the article. - ක - (talk) 20:32, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: See section above this one and https://npg.si.edu/exhibit/britons/briton11.htm. DrKay (talk) 20:38, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect image attribution 

message: Hello. The following sentence appears in the "Early Life" section: "After three years in Agar, Karim resigned and moved to Agra, to become a vernacular clerk at the jail." The word vernacular links to the Wikipedia article of this name, but does not seem to explain what was a vernacular clerk in India at the time. Could someone explain this? Texteditor (talk) 20:56, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That's taken exactly from the source. It isn't explained.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:16, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't claim any specific knowledge but it seems to me that such a post would be part of a regime which promoted the use of the relevant local language in running the jail, and being a link between that and British officials whose primary language was English. An abstract of a book about languages at this time, available at:
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/language-and-the-making-of-modern-india/how-the-vernacular-became-regional/90E5E3DE5A7559A8A31478042B035337
emphasises the importance placed on using vernacular languages in administration. Sbishop (talk) 07:39, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vernacular clerk -- what does vernacular mean in this context 

message: the infobox containing munshi's picture is a drawing.please remove that because we have actual picture of munshi here.[]
Regards-- KEmel49 (talk) 17:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It's better to keep the color high resolution file in the lead. The photo is in the article body. DrKay (talk) 17:27, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok,if it's better than nothing more.thanks--KEmel49 (talk) 02:21, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please update the photo