Talk:Home computer

message: Just to give a rationale for my revert of User:65.87.129.55's recent modifications to the "Notable home computers" list: the list is meant as a quick reference to the most common/notable home computers, and, as such, does not need to give more that a bare essence of characteristics of each machine. The interested reader will get the details by visiting the articles. --Wernher 00:48, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Computer list needs to be concise

message: Quoting Apple II article:
* The Apple II was one of the most popular personal computers of the 1980s
* The original retail price was $1298 with 4KB of RAM and $2638 with 48KB of RAM.
* The Apple II was the first computer that most people had ever seen, and it was affordable for middle-class families. Its popularity enabled the entire computer game market; the educational software market; a boom in the word processor and computer printer market; and the absolute "killer app" for business: VisiCalc, the first spreadsheet. VisiCalc alone sold many Apple II's to many business people. On the other hand, the success in the home market inspired the creation of many other inexpensive home computers such as the VIC-20 (1980) and Commodore 64 (1982), which through their significantly lower price point introduced computers to several million more home users (grabbing some of Apple's market share in the process).
Quoting IBM-PC article:
* Although not cheap, at a base price of $1,565 it was affordable for businesses
I think that the Apple II only had any impact in the home-computing area because there were no other options at it´s time. When the PC was realeased, although techically supperior and around the same price range, there were lot´s of other actual home-computers on the market. The IBM-PC was affordable for the middle-class, it was only not worth it. I think there should be some clarification on this matter in the article. It´s my opinion that the Apple II was a personnal computer that happened to have some impact in the home computer scene (or that it even helped starting it). It was not a home-computer per se. Loudenvier 15:17, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Apple ][ had a major impact for three reasons: it had a color screen, it had expansion slots, and it had a low cost disk drive. Anarchist42 20:53, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apple ][ really no home-computer either? (perhaps we should (de)promote IBM-PC to home-computer too) 

message: It's odd that the TRS-80 which was priced at $595 and sold 100k units and was the most successful machine from 1977 to 1981 only being seriously competed with by Atari sales is neglected in these articles.
The success of the Apple ][ marketing program to schools and the number of children growing up with them seems to have paid off.  Alatari 20:45, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  TRS-80 and Atari 400/800

message: Tnis article needs a complete re-write . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.1.227.70 (talk • contribs) 
:Thanks for the input.  What, exactly, is wrong with it? — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outright Mediocrity 

message: It is very unclear that the usage of the term 'Home Computer' is dead.  I still use it to refer to the machine not at work and I don't mean the game console or the laptop.  I mean the desktop personal computer. It is possible once computers start controlling the house as in Eureka's sheriff's bunker the 'Home Computer' article will take on new meaning.  
Pulled:
(Use of the term "home computer" largely died out at the end of the decade (in the U.S.) or in the early 1990s (in Europe). This was due to the rise of the IBM PC compatible personal computer (the IBM PC and its clones are not covered in this article), and the consequent preference for the term "PC" rather than "home computer." )  Alatari 22:37, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Home Computer's 'death'

message: Merge with History of computing hardware (1960s-present).  This article mainly discusses the history of a particular era of computers (70's - 80's), vs. the concept of a home computer.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cander0000 (talk • contribs). 
:Oppose The home computer was a cultural phenomenon of the late 1970s and the 1980s. It was not the same thing as the PC/Mac we take for granted today. Clean up if needed, but keep the article. Scolaire 12:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Question: Why are there two merge debates going on simultaneously? Scolaire 12:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Because more than two articles can be merged? The history article can be an overview with references to the various segments. --Wtshymanski 19:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Strongly Oppose - the home computer phenomenon deserves its own article. Think of all those terrified parents out there turning to William Shatner and Bill Cosby to get advice on educating their children. Computers used to be the wave of the future, don't you know?  --Wtshymanski 19:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Taking off the tag - it's been weeks. --Wtshymanski 18:49, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge with [[History of computing hardware (1960s-present)]]

message: I removed this sentence from the article:
:In Europe the British made systems like the BBC Micro, Sinclair's ZX81 and Spectrum, and the Amstrad/Schneider CPC were much more popular than in the USA, Only surpassed by the C64.
because it is unclear.  Does it mean that the BBC Micro, the Z81, the Spectrum and the Amstrad/Schneider sold more units than other systems sold in the US?  Or that they were more popular with Europeans than they were with Americans, but didn't necessarily sell more total units?  And was the C64 better than all those systems in Europe or the US?  It needs to be clarified.  It also really needs a reference. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 11:40, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you knew all the answers to your own questions already. The British systems were much more popular in Europe than in the US, and the popularity of these British systems (especially the Spectrum) was only overshadowed by the C64, for example the Atari systems weren't that popular as they were seen to be overly expensive. Ill try to construct the sentence again, and ill try to find a reference (or two). Mahjongg (talk) 15:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and I'm sorry if my sentences are a bit construed, its true that I write rambling prose in my own native language, let alone in English. Thanks for smoothening it up a bit. Mahjongg (talk) 22:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Unclear sentence

message: It textually says "Before long, a backlash set in—computer users were "geeks", "nerds" or worse, "hackers"."
I think that using the word "worse" can be despective to the hacker community. --Threpwood (talk) 01:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: they like it  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.193.194.181 (talk) 03:51, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please don't delete the section!  All it needs is more references...but I've found it hard to find references that stand back from the product reviews and look at the big picture. For example, my collection of old BYTEs is much less useful than I had thought - some of the early '70s editions do talk a little about why anyone would want a computer in the house and what it would do, but toward the end of BYTE's run it was just reviewing mouse pads and nattering about the current decimal revisions of mass-market software. There's got to be some scholarly writing out there we can  plagiarize  research and stiffen up this section of the article. --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:42, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: The Home Computer "Revolution"

message: An anonymous user, who seems to be also editing this article legitimately, has been removing Kc85-3.jpg from this article, claiming that it misrepresents the appearance of a home computer. I've been reverting said user, but I'd like some input on the image. Any thoughts? Bart133 t c @ How's my driving? 21:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I read the KC 85 article and it sure seems to be aimed at the home market, though of course in the GDR it might not have been as readily available to consumers as, say, a C64. It used a TV for output, cassette storage, BASIC in ROM - sounds like a home computer to me. I think it's appropriate to describe it as a "glimpse behind the Iron Curtain" because it shows a parallel trend  on both sides - in spite of the vastly different command economy system, there was still a demand and need perceived for a "home"-type computer. --Wtshymanski (talk) 04:40, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed it is definitely a home computer, although it looks very different from western systems. I also agree that this fact should be reflected in the text below the picture, perhaps something with "east-block systems looked very different" Mahjongg (talk) 09:17, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image question 

message: I have checked this article because I was looking for figures on sales of different home computer models, and I have just found that there were just but a few numbers available, and what is worse, without any reference. So I just would like to expose the question here, since I found I could rely on a number like 17 million units for C64, which I guess that makes sense, but on the other side I wonder how come the figure is just 5 million for MSX computers. Does it include the whole line-up of models up to Turbo-R or just the first generations? Do the numbers refer to the western markets or do also include the home market of Japan and even secondary Asian markets such as Korea with the Daewoo rip-off models? I am not sure about the figures -again, that's how I reached here on the first place- but I have my doubts about the MSX figure for the reasons exposed above, and I think that the data should be contrasted or either removed. Thank you for your attention.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.131.65.190 (talk) 13:24, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this number refer to the total number of all MSX machines produced, regardless of the model and standard iteration. Then it looks reasonable -- after all, it was a huge hit in Brazil, where MSX'es were used as a business machines right through most of the 90-es, and, IIRC, were even produced locally. Soviet Union bought immense numbers (tens, or even hundreds of thousands) of customized Yamaha-made models for its educational program, and some other Eastern European countries followed suit, it was hugely popular in Netherlands as well -- no, 5 million pieces doesn't strike me as an unreasonable number. I don't have references on hand (and, frankly, isn't really interesting in finding it), but someone surely has, so I believe that we should leave it, just put a request for sources. --Khathi (talk) 09:11, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  About sales figures 

message: As I read the Linux article, it seems in order.
But, when I go to Print Preview, pages 5 and 8 are
blank.  If I try to print them, they remain blank.
Why does this happen?
Thundermist04167 (talk) 12:46, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You are making no sense, it seems you are not even talking about this article as it not even has the word Linux in it. Anyway this seems to be a browser issue, nothing to do with Wikipedia. Please refrain from asking questions that do not help improve the article. Mahjongg (talk) 16:31, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing Pages 

message: We shouldn't confuse the type of keytop with the switch mechanism. Some keyboards were made of individual switches soldered to a board, with separate keycaps (one ancient terminal I dismantled used magnets in each key and a reed switch for each button). Most keyboards are membrane-type, with two sheets of plastic printed with flexible conductors, pressed together to make contact.  If you're on a slightly more posh machine, you'll have a keytop that presses on the membrane; if the designers were aiming at cheap and cheerful, instead  you'll be pressing your fingers on a plastic sheet that is the top side of the contact membrane. I've never dismantled a PC Jr or any of the Atari machines; were their "chicklet" keytops operating discrete switches, pressing on membranes, or using those detestable carbon buttons that get oily after a few months and cause you to throw the remote control at the wall?  All original research, citations would be useful (product reviewers would have commented on this sort of detail in the day). --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:41, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Reading Chicklet keyboard makes me think I may be mistaken. Also see Keyboard technology. --Wtshymanski (talk) 22:48, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Keyboard types

message: "In the late 1970s and early 1980s, from about 1977 to 1983, it was widely predicted [24] that computers would soon revolutionize many aspects of home and family life as they had business practices in the previous decades.[25] Mothers would keep their recipe catalog in "kitchen computer" databases and turn to a medical database for help with child care, fathers would use the family's computer to manage family finances and track automobile maintenance. Children would use disk-based encyclopedias for school work and would be avid video gamers. Home automation would bring about the intelligent home of the '80s. Using Videotex, NAPLPS or some sort of as-yet unrealized computer technology, television would gain interactivity. The "personalized newspaper" (to be displayed on the television screen) was a commonly-predicted application. Morning coffee would be brewed automatically under computer control. The same computer would control the house lighting and temperature. Robots would take the garbage out, and be programmed to perform new tasks via the home computer. Electronics were expensive, so it was generally assumed that each home would have only one multitasking computer for the entire family to use in a timesharing arrangement, with interfaces to the various devices it was expected to control.
“ The single most important item in 2008 households is the computer. These electronic brains govern everything from meal preparation and waking up the household to assembling shopping lists and keeping track of the bank balance. Sensors in kitchen appliances, climatizing units, communicators, power supply and other household utilities warn the computer when the item is likely to fail. A repairman will show up even before any obvious breakdown occurs.
Computers also handle travel reservations, relay telephone messages, keep track of birthdays and anniversaries, compute taxes and even figure the monthly bills for electricity, water, telephone and other utilities. Not every family has its private computer. Many families reserve time on a city or regional computer to serve their needs. The machine tallies up its own services and submits a bill, just as it does with other utilities.[26]
  
—Mechanix Illustrated, November 1968 edition
 
All this was predicted to be commonplace sometime before the end of the decade, but virtually every aspect of the predicted revolution would be delayed to later years. The computers available to consumers of the time period just weren't powerful enough to perform any single task required to realize this vision, much less do them all simultaneously."
:Well of course home computers of this era could do some of these individual things.  If in doubt, read TRS-80#Software applications.  This section may need to be re-written.--Asher196 (talk) 15:41, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't know about that.  I don't imagine too many people were "pressing PLAY on tape" to retrieve the pineapple upside down cake recipe in 1983 - you forget just how truly terribly stinking awful these "home computer" were. Home computers of 1983 were about as practically useful as "personal automobiles" prior to Ford.  By the time you'd tricked out a TRS 80 model X, Y or Z to the point where it could actually do these things with less trouble than pencil and paper, you'd spent $3000 in 1983 money, taking out of "home computer" territory and well into "nutjob computer hobbyist" country. --Wtshymanski (talk) 19:32, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe you were not around in 1983 but I was.  My first home computer bought circa 1983 cost £150 and it was certainly capable of many useful tasks.  It was certainly not the cheapest on the market by any means - that could be had for less than £100.  At least the software did not have all the unnecessary bloat and useless features that seems to be so mandatory today.  DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 12:14, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: So how did you retrieve your recipes in 1983? "Useful" is an elastic term; what a nutjob computer hobbyist considers "useful" is not what normal human beings consider useful. A 1983 machine is about as useful today as it was in 1983. --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:21, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  What any of us find useful today isn't helpful to this article. What I do see is a source reference (Mechanix Illustrated) that is wholly inappropriate as a base for the decades the article is described. If you note, that referenced magazine is from November 1968, before even the Intel 4004 had been invented! And yet it is still being used to describe computers and technology in this article made almost twenty years later! The whole section is just a plain and simple mess. Just a mess. 67.139.40.166 (talk) 08:06, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

text: Apparently you didn't look at the link I provided.  the TRS-80 Model I computer offered a floppy disk system and a 5MB  hard drive, so no, you were not limited to a tape drive.  Also "A full suite of office applications were also available, including the VisiCalc and As-Easy-As spreadsheets and the Lazy Writer, Electric Pencil and Scripsit word processors."  These were available between 1977 and 1983.--Asher196 (talk) 22:31, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Model 1 didn't have a hard drive, that didn't come out till years later for the Models II and III (and added $1500 to your $595 computer plus $300 expansion interface, plus a table full of wires and power supplies.) Adding even a single-density floppy drive to the Model 1 more than doubled the cost, since you also had to add an expansion interface. You wound up with a system that was worth a few months' disposable income in 1983 and was not a typical "home" computer purchase as we understand it today. The point in the article is still valid, a 1980's "home" computer was so limited that it was nearly useless for anything but games. --Wtshymanski (talk) 21:16, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The hard drive and floppy drives were available before 1983.  I only supplied the Model I page link for general reference.  It is your opinion that those early home computers were "nearly useless".  Unless you can provide a reliable source backing up that opinion, then this section should not be stating " The computers available to consumers of the time period just weren't powerful enough to perform any single task required to realize this vision...."--Asher196 (talk) 01:22, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I could provide several links to back up my claim that early home computers were useful.  Here is a link regarding VisiCalc, first available in 1979.  http://www.trs-80.org/visicalc/Asher196 (talk) 01:27, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed even such a simple program as Electric Pencil revolutionized writing, no more Tipp-Ex needed! Looking back and saying that what was available at the time was "useless" is seeing things from a modern perspective, not the contemporary one. Mahjongg (talk) 13:41, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  "The public thinks computers are useless... There is a general feeling that the home computer was a fad and that there really is no practical purpose for a computer in the home" - Commodore Magazine, Sept. 1987   According to Asher's link, VisiCalc is useful for "solving problems such as sales projections, income taxes, financial ratios, engineering changes, and many more." Of these, only one is remotely useful in home use. It cost $250 at introduction - adjusted for inflation that's $577.75, pretty expensive for something that's only useful once per year.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.250.4 (talk) 03:05, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

text:  I must remind Wtshymanski that the Apple IIe came out in 1983, which (without spending a "fortune") could do all the things that you mentioned (and HowardSoft Tax Preparer software for the platform wasn't very expensive either)... 67.139.40.166 (talk) 07:46, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  If I could have bought an Apple IIe for $300 in 1983, I might have done so. I'd still have to buy a tabletop full of floppy drives, power supplies, a printer, a monitor, etc., running the total cost up over a month's pay. Yes, there were some capable machines that could do useful tasks in 1983, but they were priced away above the "come-on" pricing of so many home computers of that era. --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:00, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "Home Computer Revolution" section 

message: The article seems to describe events of one country only. In Europe, the home computer revolution really happened. Not for controlling lighting or for brewing coffee in the morning, but for a big games market and home office use. It was interesting to read what happened in USA - I think many Europeans wonder what you did for games, for example, during the period that the PC was unusable for games and Atari 8-bits were 10 years old technology. But it seems to me the entire article is US-centric and incorrectly depicts the commercial success of home computer companies, home computer software companies, home computer peripheral companies, and the many home computer magazines in Europe from circa 1982-1992.
Henrik Erlandsson 13:40, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Actually, the home computer revolution did happen over here. 

message: I tried to fix the article regarding the Amiga 1000 cited as an home computer, but OMPIRE continuously reverted my changes. The point is that this computer isn't an home but a personal computer, as correctly reported in its page.
The Amiga is a line of personal computers, where the low-end machines were basically sold as home computers, as reported also in the main article which in general talks about them.
For those reason, I think that the Amiga 1000 should be completely removed both from Technology and the 1980s sections (the latter reports a Commodore Amiga on July 1985, which is clearly the 1000).
BTW, the same should apply for the Apple IIGS and the Acorn Archimedes, which are other examples of personal computers wrongly reported in this article. Cdimauro (talk) 21:37, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Amiga 1000 wasn't an home computer 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The displayed KC 85/3 is a really bad example for a "home computer". This is as in East-Germany all pre-assembled computers were extremely short in supply that it was almost impossible to own one privately - and therefore to have it at home - which is the defining feature of a home computer as per top section of this Wiki page. 
I was born in 1973 in East-Germany and one could buy very basic computer boards with down-rated components for self-assembly, or, one could go to public libraries and training centres to have access there to such pre-assembled computers. 
Alternatively, one could ask ones grannies (who could travel freely after reaching retirement age) to bring a C64/C16/Atari back from West Germany, or, one could ask your parents to spend around 4000 East Marks (according to the unofficial exchange rate of 1:20) to buy a used C64 there. That were the ways I and some of my friends got their home computers around 1987 - without getting in any trouble, as it was officially not just tolerated but even kind of encouraged to ease supply issues.
Honestly, I don't know anyone who would own a pre-assembled East-German computer privately. Even the communist government acknowledged that KCs are not home computers by renaming them from "HC" (home computer) to "KC" (klein/small computer) and also by not distributing them on public sales channels. (See the German Wiki entry on KCs for further details.)
The situation in other communist states was different. For example, in the SU there were several pre-assembled home computers for sale. 
Finally, it is possible that a few KCs were privately owned - but just by higher party members etc. via non-public channels. Also, I don't dispute at all that there were fan clubs for the KC line of computers. 
I recommend removing the info box about the KC 85/3 entirely as there is another info box about KC systems further down on the same page and also because the design is not that unusual.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2454:8D55:500:29F0:5908:5582:911F (talk) 19:24, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No design of a home computer is especially unusual; the value of discussing that model here is taht it gies the rest of us ( who don't have your level of familiarity) some idea of the closest thing to a home computer available in East Germany at the time. All to Iron Curtain machines are interesting on that basis. Those economies were not set up for "consumer goods" in teh same way as teh West was. --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:24, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  KC 85/3 displayed is a really bad example for a "home computer" 

message: "The line between 'business' and 'home' computer market segments vanished completely once IBM PC compatibles became commonly used in the home"  needs correcting, as it has not 'vanished completely'.  The number of home computers since the 90s I would argue has increased (not including IBM Compatible or Windows based computers) in numbers, but decreased in percentage.  As you should already know there are more home computers being release - Commander X16, Mega 65, Spectrum Next, variants of Commodore 64, Amstrad CPC, ZX Spectrum, ZX81, Amiga etc.   These are all home computers - Amiga is a crossover business one, because it was orignally marketed in both sectors but even now it is still growing (after it shrunk) in the home market - soon to be released A1200 Maxi. 157.211.156.37 (talk) 07:17, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be interesting to see the combined annual sales of these "nostalgia" hobby computers vs. what a modern human-on-the-street would be thinking of when one mentions a "home computer". These are hobbyist-oriented systems and not directed at the sort of market that bought the original "home" computers. They are no longer "mass market" and don't get any advertising budget. Back in the day you couldn't turn on a TV or open a magazine without seeing William Shatner or Bill Cosby shilling for a home computer of some kind; that doesn't happen today and not just because TV and magazines are nearly extinct. I mean, yeah, there's an exhibition of 1955/56/57 cars at the hotel down the street every summer weekend, but that doesn't mean 1950's automobiles are making a comeback. --Wtshymanski (talk) 03:38, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correction needed and Home Computer is still used 

message: I ddo not think this characterization is precise, because PDP-11, unlike BK did not have graphical display. So, I would not call BK "stripped down". Reciprocist (talk) 10:24, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "BK-0010 was, basically, a very stripped-down PDP-11"