Talk:The Smashing Pumpkins/Archive 1

message: Over the last couple of days, I took the liberty of updating all the SP covers to higher res, clearer ones, including MACHINA II/The Friends & Enemies of Modern Music which had the wrong cover (the EP one instead of the LP), and continued to put the rest of the thumbnails for the covers next to the appropriate section as was already done with w/ Siamese Dream, Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness and MACHINA/The Machines of God.. I also added Corgan's ad in the Chicago Tribune.. It kind of changes the look of the page.. but I think in a good way, i hope you agree
---
Hey, not sure how we can edit this, but can we use a different picture to represent the band? http://ww.my-mistake.net/infinitepics has a lot of pictures to choose from. I really don't like the picture shown. 
Some suggestions:
http://www.my-mistake.net/infinitepics/band/band447.jpg
http://www.my-mistake.net/infinitepics/band/band092.jpg
http://www.my-mistake.net/infinitepics/band/band106.jpg
http://www.my-mistake.net/infinitepics/band/band478.jpg
http://www.my-mistake.net/infinitepics/band/band500.jpg
Effloresce
:Replying to Effloresce, I think that it would be a good idea to replace the band pic.. only replace it one of the current SP line-up, which at this point in time is unknown..jerkmonkee 20:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever is done with regard to images must be done within the site policy, specifically Wikipedia:Image use policy. I would recommend reading that very carefully first, so as to avoid your efforts getting reverted. Specifically, you can't just throw any pictures you like on the site. Also, you might want to undo your hi-res work on the album covers, as it seems to expressly violate fair use rationales. Sorry, but dem's the breaks... Girolamo Savonarola 11:21, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In regards to to Girolamo Savonarola, I actually posted all the cover art on Wikipedia, and I don't agree that it all "seems to expressly violate fair use rationales", infact most of them are barely over the 300x300px range, which is just barely over the 200x200px size that Wikipedia uses in the album infobox, so yea, i have to disagree..jerkmonkee 20:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: I took the liberty to add the musical element of Grunge to the list at the beginning at the article. When I first read the opening paragraph, I made sure to read it twice, since I almost couldn't believe the reference was missing. Why do you ask? Apart from a big part their music which reflects the Seattle sound of the early 90s, they even started out on the sub pop label just as oh-so-many other Grunge bands. I also sorted the first items alphabetically. I hope you all approve. --Johnnyw 10:38, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Smashing Pumpkins are NOT grunge.  As said above, grunge is an image movement (ie. don't care about your image) and not a style of music.  The Pumpkins were VERY image conscious from the get-go (cf. Caroline/Virgin debacle). Danny Lilithborne 04:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, okay, that makes sense. However, if this is the case, why does the Grunge music page exist and completely contradict what you are saying? If you want to make the argument you are making, the Grunge page needs to agree with your concept of Grunge. Now, I'm not really a fan of most "grunge", but still, I'm looking for some consistency. I wouldn't actually really call the Smashing Pumpkins grunge, although at times they were grouped as such. Folkor 07:21, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, that's one large and unfortunate article... what is described as "grunge" there is basically a name given to alternative rock when it was too popular to be alternative.  I don't really agree with the name at all, but I'm not sure what to do about the article. Danny Lilithborne 08:10, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, the Pumpkins article just reads "containing elements of...". Currently I am not convinced that they did not contain elements of grunge, even if grunge is just an image thing, especially due to their sub pop connection. --Johnnyw 10:06, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to have to say that I agree with Johnnyw, although I wouldn't be too upset if the reference was removed from the page. However, that doesn't change the Grunge article. However, what you (Danny Lilithborne) say is probably legitimate. Then again, I don't know. It does contradict what I've heard and read before. Folkor 04:59, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grunge 

message: I just came upon this article, and it seems to have great potential. If anyone has any appropriate/non-copyvio pictures, we'll need 'em. Also, the intro section should be expanded (IMO). For more info on featured article, see Wikipedia:Featured articles and Wikipedia:What is a featured article. Timbo ( t a l k ) 22:14, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let's make this a [[Wikipedia:Featured articles|featured article]] 

message: The discography of Smashing Pumpkins is quite prolific. I believe there should be a section on this site that displays the promotional releases of the band .
I have found a site which displays artworks for many (if not, all, however they are not labelled) of the promotional items the band has released.  (and click on the Album Artwork link). Paranoid-andrew 06:27, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discography - Promotional releases 

message: How did Smashing Pumpkins get its name? Was it named this from its conception, or could it have had anything to do with SPISPOPD? - Brian Kendig 23:24, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It was actually Gene Simmons.  Billy told that story in an interview, though I don't remember any information about who it was with or when it was. 142.59.153.99 09:47, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name? 

message: How complete is the discography information intended to be?  I have _Adore_ on vinyl, and that format isn't listed; my _Siamese Dream_ vinyl is orange not red.  I suppose this isn't the place for a complete indepth listing of every single release right down to the various label colours, but is it worth even mentioning that certain albums were released on LP if the list isn't accurate/complete?
The Gilly 03:38, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Completeness of discography? 

message: Please do not add speculation to the article regarding the band's possible reunion, unless you can provide a verifiable source. ~MDD4696 01:00, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reunion 

message: I went to Billboard.com and it said the Smashing Pumpkins have sold over 18 million albums, rather than the 12 million that was listed. I took the liberty to change this.
This was mostly likely due to the RIAA unit sales system.  Mellon Collie actually sold about 5,000,000 copies, but since it is a double CD it is credited with around 10,000,000.  The difference between the additional million may be do to updating.--Aptitude 03:19, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Record sales 

message: :How is the discography complex? Those releases are all important one way or another... I can't really imagine removing or changing it and calling it an improvement... and "There shouldn't be any empty section headings"? I have no idea what you're talking about. Could someone clear this up for me? -- Underwater 16:31, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured Music Project evaluation 

message: Is it really important enough to be a related article? I could see maybe some of their influences, but not a DOOM refrence that happened to have the words "Smashing Pumpkins".
I.Mills 16:59, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: SPISPOPD

message: I've collected some resources in order to try and get the SP article to Featured status.  Right now I'm having a dilemma on where to put information regarding their influences.  So far I've been able to get The Cure in there, but important influences like Black Sabbath, Queen, Joy Division, and My Bloody Valentine still need to be cited (especially MBV, who basically inspired the sound of Gish and Siamese Dream).  Should I create a separate section, or work the relevant information and quotes throughout the article, or stick them in the early years section?
I'm also wondering how much information belongs on Billy's page as opposed to the one for the band.  WesleyDodds 22:24, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would love for the Pumpkins to become a featured article but everything has to be cited with clear rationals for anything included, especially the photos. Unless the quote is relevent to the topic at hand all quotes should be incuded in Wikiquote. There is a lot of resouces out there listed on the Information section and getting there help would be amazing. As for the influnces I would recommend to check out other featured articles and see how they resolved it. Just remember cite everything (c:= -- UKPhoenix79 05:50, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I'm mainly talking about integrating reference material, although I do have a few really good direct quotes.  There's one about how Husker Du's Zen Arcade influenced the band's dynamics and quite a few about the influence of the production of MBV's Loveless on the sound of the albums.  WesleyDodds 09:47, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: oooh sounds interusting! -- UKPhoenix79 10:03, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influences 

message: The page is at 36 kb now, so it's best that the discography be split into a separate page.  The list of singles should also be turned into a chart.  WesleyDodds 02:28, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. I've just cut and pasted it into a new article which is linked off of this page where it used to be. Looks damn ugly now, but hopefully it'll get a nice makeover shortly... ;) Girolamo Savonarola 20:47, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discography 

message: The link by the end of the article is terribly out of date. Since then, 5 CDs worth of material have been leaked. 03:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mashed Potatoes 

message: Starchildren is on the orphan article list because nothing links to it.  It claims to be a Billy Corgan side project.  Can someone check it out and if true, link to it from some appropriate pages?  Also add any good info, etc.  Thanks. Thatcher131 19:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Starchildren]] 

message: I'm not very keen on the rumor that Jane's Addiction bassist Eric Avery may be in the new line-up. It seems to me like it is just a fansite creating hype as it is just a claimed response email in plain text, but that is only my opinion, so I will not touch it. What are your guys' thoughts? Do you really think we can put sketchy speculation like this in the article? --Reaper X 20:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Eric Avery]] 

message: The current version of the MACHINA paragraph I feel is full of POV details and details in general better reserved for the album's page.  I'd like to change it back to the previous version.  Thoughts?  WesleyDodds 21:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  MACHINA edit 

message: I removed this text from the Reunion section:
:Jimmy Chamberlin was recently interviewed by French Magazine Batterie(). When asked if James Iha and D'Arcy Wretzky would be returning to the band, Jimmy replied (translated from French to English): "To be honest, I don't want to talk about this subject. We have the songs, and we're preparing a new record. Please, let's leave it as this and talk about something else."
:More information from the interview also reveals that they began their work last year discreetly, and that they got back on track very well and are having fun writing new songs and playing. He also says that at least 50 songs have been written.
:It is also possible that the band may be touring this year: towards the end of the interview, when asked if he is coming back to France, Jimmy says (translated from French to English): "With The Smashing Pumpkins, I'll be back during the year, that's for sure."
There's two main problems with this: Firstly, it's not cited in the proper format; what we have here is a scan of a page that's linked to as a reference.  That's not going to do.  Secondly, it's translated by the editor from French to English.  I don't think that's adequate, and some of the information is already stated in the article.  If someone wants to re-add the info, please cite it properly, or better yet, find an English equivalent to cite.  WesleyDodds 23:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't cite it because I don't know who wrote it or the publication date.  You would have that information.  WesleyDodds 23:10, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So you think the scan and the interview is just completely made up? Let me try to contact the source who provided this information and perhaps he can help us. It's a legitimate interview. Effloresce 17:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not debating the source.  It's just for the purposes of citing things properly we need a proper reference.  Also, this is the English language Wiki, so it would be best if our information comes from English language sources.  WesleyDodds 03:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So even if we can cite it properly, you still don't want it just because the text is in French? That's ridiculous! That interview has a couple pieces of info that make this Wiki entry stand out even more. I don't understand. Effloresce 23:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  <i>Batterie</i> interview 

message: I'm of the opinion that this should be treated as an official release.  Even on the discography page it's listed as a bootleg instead of a live album.  Seeing as it was released by the band with art from James, I think it should be considered an official live album release. Cjosefy 23:16, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Metro 1988-10-05

message: Any reason why Melissa is a former member, but Matt Walker isn't? Cjosefy 14:44, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Was he ever an official member?  Melissa appeared in promo material; Matt Walker didn't.  During the Adore period the band portrayed itself as a trio. WesleyDodds 10:38, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly Melissa was more pronounced as a member, but it's hard to say whether there was any promo material around the end of the Mellon Collie tour/Batman time period that featured Matt.  He appeared in the TEITBITE video. I wonder if he got a Grammy for it as well?  Cjosefy 13:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Former members

message: Pretty much all the non-album images on this page have been tagged for removal recently due to lack of soucre/copyright information.  Could someone please provide this, or barring that, put up some suitable free or fair use substitutes?  WesleyDodds 15:01, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm trying to find the sources on Image:SmashingPumpkins-MCISera.jpg and Image:Sp1991.jpg. I've contacted the users who uploaded them, and I'm also surfing the web trying to investigate. I have at least added proper summaries, and  to them. This still leaves the Billy Corgan Tribune ad very vulnerable though. -- Reaper  X 16:49, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Scratch that, I took care of the ad. -- Reaper  X 17:18, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image removal 

message: I'm thinking of adding a brief footnote explaining the whole "Smashing Pumpkins"/"The Smashing Pumpkins" naming shift.  Thoughts?  WesleyDodds 10:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: Is there any way we can get a fair use screenshot from Vieuphoria to complement the new "Musical style and influences" section I've created?  I'm particularly thinking of the footage from the recording sessions for Siamese Dream.  WesleyDodds 08:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Heya Wesley. I took two screenies of Vieuphoria that I can't say I particularly like, but I guess they might illustrate the "relentless touring" in the Mainstream success section. They are here and here. The pumpkins really had a thing for bright lights and smoke in those days, so it was really hard to get a decent shot. As for the Musical influences, I can take a screenie of the (otherwise unreleased?) Cherub Rock video off my Greatest Hits DVD which would show their psychadelic influences nicely. I'll listen to the commentary again for an idea of how to caption the image. - Phorque 14:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh! I also thought that a screenshot of the pumpkins playing Geek USA on the Greatest Hits with the 50 clowns onstage might be a better illustrator of the "relentless touring" just how big things were getting for them. I think my Vieuphoria screenies are really pretty crappy. - Phorque 14:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have the DVD version of Vieuphoria?  That has an hour of Lollapalooza footage as a bonus. WesleyDodds 07:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Only the VHS, sorry! - Phorque 09:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then yeah, go with the clowns.  Because clowns are funny.  WesleyDodds 22:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I guess we could go for the clown vibe with the rock 'n roll vibe. - Phorque 23:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Screenshots 

message: Does anyone object to the removal of the MACHINA II cover from the article?  I want to make room for the eventual posting of a soundclip from Adore, and since MACHINA II exists primarily as fans' burned copies, the cover to the 25 vinyl copies that were made doesn't really matter in my opinion.  WesleyDodds 06:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All official albums have a picture on the page.  If we are considering Machina II as a studio album, then the picture should remain. Cjosefy 12:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Some people have problems with any album covers at all appearing in the album... so I wouldn't see it as a bad idea. It's likely the FAC commenters will urge you to remove all of them. - Phorque 16:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

text: We have all of them at The Smashing Pumpkins discography already, so why not? The only thing I would worry about is, well, a lack of images thereafter. Only :Image:Sp1991.jpg in the infobox, and the Billy Corgan Tribune ad would be left, not suitable for the article size in my opinion. We had some band pictures before, but I believe they all got deleted because they had no source. So I'd have to say remove them all like Phorque said above, but only once we have more promo photos. -- Reaper  X 18:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose a good example of the use of album covers in a recent rock band FA is Genesis, where they only show up for commentary.  Although Pink Floyd has several covers and audio clips. WesleyDodds 21:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is true. I also noticed that Miles Davis' article has album covers as decoration. None the less, I think the FA scrutiny has increased since those were featured. - Phorque 06:13, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Machina II cover 

message: Wikipedia:Music samples puts this forward as the guideline and here's why I agree:
*People who scrutinize FA candidates want the samples in boxes. (I've been down this road with the Elliott Smith article)
*I feel it looks neater
*The descriptions provide a platform to show additional information and justify why the reader should listen to the sample. It's not fair use to just include a sample for every song you name-drop in the article with no reason as to why that song is significant.
So there you have it. Change them back to inline samples if you must, but don't expect it to go down well. ;) - Phorque 05:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why the samples are in boxes 

message: *Aljohnston seems to be creating an article for every SP song on Siamese Dream and MCIS.  I think this flies in the face of WP:MUSIC; but I also am fairly sure there's nothing malicious about it.  I have to go to bed now, so I can't tag the articles myself. Anyone care to help; or perhaps we could discuss the articles themselves and if they have a place here? Danny Lilithborne 09:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Aljohnston]]'s creation of SP song-related articles. 

message: Does anyone have any live pics to suggest?  I'm thinking Lollapalooza and so forht.  How about magazine covers?  I'm betting they appeared on Rolling Stone and I know they were chosen as Band of the Year by Spin in 1994, but did they ever appear on the cover of a major news publication like Time or Newsweek?  WesleyDodds 11:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Magazine covers are fine, but only if absolutely necessary. It is argued that it is not fair use to include a magazine cover to illustrate what is on it rather than the magazine itself. In the case of Elliott Smith, we used a magazine cover or two because those were some of the only photos showing his appearance at the magazine's publication. - Phorque 14:16, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More picture ideas 

message: I know that the Pumpkins have a huge discography, but most artists pages on Wikipedia have the basic discography (main studio albums only, no singles or EPs) with a link at the top to a separate article with their complete discography (see Elliott Smith for an example of this). I purpose that we do this for this article. I'm going to start working on it, unless there's some sort of objection. Shamrox 01:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It varies.  Genesis does fine without its discography listed on the main page.  WesleyDodds 02:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Same with Nirvana. Why list the same info twice anyway? -- Reaper  X 18:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Most artists pages on Wikipedia have the basic discography with studio albums, singles and EPs on the main page. I think it is great how it is and should not be change. -- Janadore 19:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that someone wants to add one more of this, and a bit of that, and the next thing you know we have the same giant mess that caused the article to be split to begin with. The article itself makes a clear enough chronology of all the albums and major releases; anyone interested in more will either see the footer template at the bottom or click the discography link. Girolamo Savonarola 20:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you guys are right. It's looks better. -- Janadore 21:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

text: That's why you make it a "Selected discography" and leave an HTML comment saying "DON'T EXPAND THIS YOU FOOLS! IT'S LIKE THIS FOR A REASON" but in nicer words. =P - Phorque 14:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Basic discography for main article 

message: I added the cleanup tag to the discography because it was sloppy and unrefrenced ,But someone has made a simpler album section therefore I don't think it needs one now.
As for the The Smashing Pumpkins discography itself does still need the tag until it is cleaned up. SOADLuver 19:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup Tag

message: I edited this because the new version has specific details that in a sense veer towards fancruft; who cares besides Smashing Pumpkins fans?  It's more concise and to the point.  Plus everything about the paragraph was referenced from the same source as the quote cited at the end.  22:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early days paragraph 

message: While I can appreciate wanting to try and standardize on a format for all bands, this standard does not exist.  It very well may be that a lot of band articles have another style of headings, but it is still a matter of opinion right now.  Feel free to provide a link to where some real, meanigful consensus has been reached on this issue.  For now I feel it is better to leave it as it is, which is modelled after a number of featured articles on modern bands.  If the current style is good enough to become featured several different times, I feel confident in it on this page.  Cjosefy 12:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Regards: Painbearer 14:49, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History headings 

message: I made a list of a few tasks that need to be performed on this page.  The album sales are easy enough to cite, but I'm wondering where that total of 40 million albums sold worldwide came from.  I removed it because I couldn't find a source, but it would be helpful if someone could.
An important aspect to fulfilling the scope criteria for a featured article is noting what subsequent influence the band has had, if any.  Can anyone find some notable bands that are verifiably influenced by the Smashing Pumpkins?  I think Muse has mentioned an influence, but I'm not sure. WesleyDodds 00:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  To-do list 

message: I signed in to Myspace today and realized that Billy Corgan's personal page has turned into a Smashing Pumpkins music page, complete with a new song called "C'Mon".  Is there any news about this we can cite?
P.S.: I'd say don't bother checking out the song itself.  It's very cock-rock.  WesleyDodds 04:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By new, you mean 1989? Girolamo Savonarola 04:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm slightly relieved now.  I still fear the new album might be crap, though.  WesleyDodds 05:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Pumpkins song 

message: Is there any reason this article actualy need to keep this image arouncd ::Image:Billy Corgan - Tribune Ad.jpg? If so the thumbnail version is pointles, there should be only one copy of the image and reducing the image in size to comply with the fair use policy is pointles if we are going to keep the high-resolution version around anyway. I think the article will be just fine just describing the gist of the ad without the need to have the full text available so I tagged the big one as orphanded. If anyone have a compelling reason for why beeing eable to read the full text of the add is crutial to this article please bake it into a fair use rationale and use the big one directly. Personaly I don't think it's needed though, the ad is basicaly just another source and there is no need to quote it in entierty inline. --Sherool (talk) 10:24, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you that the larger image with full text is unnecessary. I do feel that the thumbnail is useful in conveying the visual striking-ness of the ad, because the ad is just so over the top and unusual. Perhaps a link to an external version at hi-res with legible text would allow the truly interested to get their fill of Billy Corgan's crazy-talk. :P - Phorque 12:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  That ad picture 

message: If anyone has been following the band on their Myspace they will realise that Jimmy has been posting information of the bands progress on the new album. I was going to add a little bit of this onto the page but I thought I woudl clarify with everyone to see whether it is relevant or not. Debaser23 10:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's really not, since it's basically a "Here's what we did today in making the album" kind of thing. WesleyDodds 20:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Is it just me or do those posts sound nothing like Jimmy? Compared to the way he spoke on Vieuphoria and on the Greatest Hits commentary, it's like two different people. When did he get into all this "cosmic journey" shit? Maybe he has been spending too much time with Billy lately. - Phorque 21:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Or maybe it is Billy...Debaser23 09:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It probably is, given that that page used to be his personal page.  He likes to fuck around on MySpace.  WesleyDodds 10:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Shit... I love the Smashing Pumpkins, theatricality and all, but Billy is just such a n00b sometimes. XD - Phorque 10:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jimmy's Love Letters

message: There doesn't appear to be any mention of Corgan's side project from 1994 entitled Starchildren. Is there any were a reference to this could be put in? Debaser23 13:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd never even heard of this. I put in in associated acts, and beyond that I'm not sure there's any necessity to mention them elsewhere. - Phorque 21:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Ah, I had almost forgotten about this.  Which is funny because not even a few months ago I was playing a friend the "Isolation" cover from the Joy Division tribute album and cajoling her into guessing who it was.  WesleyDodds 16:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Probably the Mellon Collie article, then.  WesleyDodds 11:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Starchildren

message: I've always thought that Muzzle was never officially released as a single; I think if it was it would have had it's own b-sides or be an EP like the rest. Regardless, an unregistered user has put into the article that it was a single. 
Is this legitimate? piper108 21:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They're not the same thing - a promo is a limited release for industry professionals, while a single is an official public release of a track. Muzzle is a promo. It likely was vetted to be the next single, but clearly the momentum had passed before it was able to release as a single. Girolamo Savonarola 00:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muzzle as single? 

message: Okay I posted this in on the Siamese Dream discussion page but with no luck of reply so I thought that I would try on here. At the end of a few Siamese Dream tracks there are short sound clips. Does anyone know what they are? The most notable songs you can hear the sound clips clearly on are Spaceboy  and Soma. Debaser23 09:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They're just random snippets of stuff.  Corgan never elaborated on exactly what they are because he didn't want to get sued for useing stuff he apparently got off of TV.  WesleyDodds 01:13, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Siamese Dream Sound Clips