Talk:POUM

message: POUM got in the way of the war effort, which might have avoided World War Two if it had defeated Franco, or even produced a stalemate. 
Encyclopaedia Britannica Book Of The Year 1939
Spain, Civil War In: The history of the Spanish Civil War represents a striking triumph of material over moral factors in war.  The defence of the Spanish Republican cause has not been conducted without a considerable measure of political disharmony between Communists, Anarchists, and moderate Republicans, nor has it been wholly free from outbreaks of criminal disorder, but it is probably that no offensives of modern time have been initiated with greater enthusiasm...  and that no defensive tasks have been faced with grimmer resolution than have those of holding Madrid and Barcelona.
Spain: The trial in Barcelona, for complicity in the May 1937 rising, of nine Unified Marxist leaders (P.O.U.M), five of whom were sentenced to long terms of imprisonment, though all were cleared of the charge of having fascist sympathies; and a series of trials following the discovery of a spy ring in Catalonia.
Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1993 edition
Spain: The Civil War: The role of the workers in defeating the [military-fascist] rising made their organisations the power in the Republican zone.  The legal government was by-passed or totally supplanted by local committees ad trade unions; the workers militia replaced the dissolved army...  The English novelist George Orwell well described Barcelona, where the CNT [the anarcho-syndicalist trade union] was all-powerful...
This revolution was distasteful to the Left Republicans and to the Communist Party, which rapidly grew in numbers and in political influence because it controlled the supply of arms from the Soviet Union.  In the name of an efficient war effort and the preservation of 'bourgeois' elements of the Popular Front, the Communists pressed for a popular army and central government control...
A small Marxist revolutionary party .. P.O.U.M, which rejected the Popular Front in favour of a workers' government, set off a rebellion in Barcelona in May 1937.  The Communists, Republicans and anti-Caballero Socialists used this as an excuse to outs Largo Caballero, who had proved insufficiently pliable to Communist demands,  The government led by the Socialist doctor Juan Negrin was a Republican-Socialist-Communist concern.  The great unions, the UGT and CNT, were replaced by political parties.
The Communists were correct in arguing that the committee-militia system was militarily ineffective.  General Franco's army, ferried over from Morocco, cut through the militia and arrived before Madrid by November 1936.  The successful resistance of the city, which was stiffened by the arrival of the International Brigades and Soviet arms, meant that the Civil War would be prolonged for two years...
Most other sources say the same.
--GwydionM 19:38, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What did they achieve? 

message: I have redirected references to the Communist Left of Spain to this article: I hardly think that the party was important on its own, and all mentions of it fit on this page. That is also less confusing. Dahn 23:11, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like someone reverted that; if you are going to do that again, I suggest that it ought then to be mentioned in this article. - Jmabel | Talk 02:42, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I see, they are here as "Left Communists of Spain". - Jmabel | Talk 03:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text: clever, clever. But since someone might type that, I've added a hatnote to Poum, which is a placename. - Jmabel | Talk 04:30, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Redirect

message: "During the Civil War the party began to grow in popularity and, alongside the anarchist Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT), commanded the support of most of the proletariat in the zone not controlled by Francisco Franco's forces during the war." Is there any evidence for this? --Henrygb 14:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wonder about that too - I was always under the impression that the POUM was numerically insignificant compared to the CNT (the POUM had about 60,000 members, IIRC). Also, I don't think CNT members were in the majority throughout the war, especially not after May 1937. My understanding is that they did indeed have the support of most industrial workers in the Republican zone earlier in the war. -Father Inire (talk) 22:57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Popularity

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thread_title: File:POUM Obreros.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Not moved. Seems to be a consensus that POUM is the common name of the party and that there is not sufficient justification for using the full name. (non-admin closure)  Turnagra (talk) 05:59, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: POUM →  – POUM is an acronym like PSOE or any other one. "Workers' Party of Marxist Unification" is a name particularly widespread in the sources (see Google books, Google scholar and its lemma in the Encyclopaedia Britannica). I really see no reason for using the acronym for this party as title of the page: there are cases in which the party is known almost exclusively by the acronym of their name (Syriza, Jobbik, Fidesz etc.), but definitely not in this case. Scia Della Cometa (talk) 17:45, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

text: This is a contested technical request (permalink). Scia Della Cometa (talk) 17:45, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

text: Exactly, could you explain to me what is the difference between PSOE and POUM? I can't find any difference. The fact that there are more references for an acronym is an obviousness, but using the acronym as a page title should be the exception, not the rule. It seems to me that PSOE is used in exactly the same way as POUM in the sources, but only in the first case (rightly so) the title of the page is the name of the party.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 22:21, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: In the English Wikipedia the main rule is to follow the reliable sources (ie POUM). It is what the Spanish called it at the time and the English and Spanish scholars as well. As an abbreviation POUM does not require a Spanish pronunciation. Rjensen (talk) 22:26, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

text: You're assuming that language is consistent for how entities of a type are referred to.  It's not.  Some political organizations are known by their full name, some by shortened versions of the name, some by a nickname, some by an acronym.  For foreign-language parties, throw in sometimes the raw term in the other language anglicized, sometimes a literal translation, sometimes a free translation.  Forcing consistency would mean breaking WP:COMMONNAME.  There isn't any difference other than just how sources & scholars usually refer to them.  SnowFire (talk) 22:32, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: In Wikipedia the main rules are to follow the common name and follow reliable sources (ie POUM). It is what the Spanish called it at the time and the English and Spanish scholars as well. As an abbreviation POUM does not require a Spanish pronunciation. As for using an abbreviation as title see NKVD and Gulag for Soviet examples and Gestapo for Nazi Germany. Rjensen (talk) 22:37, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 22 March 2022 

message: Maybe I should have made that 2 topics?  Anyway..
I'm not sure how to proceed with this.  It seems a bit off.  The article is almost exclusively about the fractures within Franco's opposing
groups to the point that Franco himself isn't even mentioned. 
 
There seems to me also to be an inconsistency of celebrity mention in articles like this- with the development of Orwell's anti-Stalinist 
highlighted at the top when he was a soldier just like any other during the war.  Compare with the article on the German Democratic Party,
for instance, which Albert Einstein co-founded.  You would need to read 1164 words to learn that, though.  Don't get me wrong: I'm not against mentioning Orwell- I wouldn't even mind if we quoted 'Homage' somewhere, just not in the summary/lead.  (If I could only fix one thing, though, it would be the lack of Franco's mention.)
Also- the phrase "with whom the former broke" is pretty much only used in this article.  When I googled for the phrase I got this article and
lots of various types of mirrors of it.  I think it is technically correct English, but is a fairly old fashioned way of describing a social schism. Modern speakers may get confused, thinking broke means something like "destroyed".  Google can only find 1200 instances of the phrase on the internet at large. Maybe I can replace it with "with whom the former split"?   And for the Franco bit - maybe the addition of a section called "official enemies" or some such?
Anyways- let me know what you folks think.
Know Einstein (talk) 04:58, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Franco isn't mentioned in the article at all, & Fascism only once: to describe accusations of Trotskyists