Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template/Archive 1

message: __TOC__
Hi everyone
a) loving the idea 
b) seen it first implemented (for the UK anyway) on Channel Tunnel Rail Link 
c) Dannyboy3 has taken up the challenge at;
*Cherwell Valley Line
*Staines to Windsor & Eton Line
*Coventry to Nuneaton Line
*Leamington to Stratford Line
*Lymington Branch Line
d) thus i've had a go at Sheerness Line 
e) Britmax has done the Fawley Branch Line on his userpage
so i was wondering if people bringing it accross from the German wikipedia could point out where we're goping wrong (becasue i don't spak a lot of German!), etc - I'm not happy with how the line looks, i think i need to use BS3 (or a higher number). Pickle 20:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, some thought later, and i think i've cracked the Sheerness Line --Pickle 21:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Made that work, and done two more Sheppey Light Railway and Ashford via Maidstone East Line Pickle 22:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm getting the hand of this - Bromley North Line Pickle 11:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ashford to Ramsgate (via Canterbury West) line done, still having problems rendering how the Ashford layout should be represented. Pickle 13:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  And another closed line - Canterbury and Whitstable Railway Pickle 14:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just done Kent Coast Line, but am having problems rendering the layout at the Dover end Pickle 18:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I like what has been done with the various German lines, but i think the problem at Dover and Ashford is different (or maybe I'm trying to be too detailed or concerned with historic track layouts), in ASCII art form, here is the rough layout i want to show (* = station)
   |                    
   *                    Priory
   |                    
   /\                   
  /  *                 Harbour 
 /    \                
--***---*--*          Town, Marine, and Admiralty Pier 
because I've already used the first column of the BS3 template, I've only got one column to play with to the right of the line.Pickle 10:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Ashford is worse (i can sort of imagine a solution to the dover issue);
           |         
-\         /            
---Ashford---        
-/        \--        
           \         
           |         
I've done the line that comes down form the top right (Ashford to Ramsgate (via Canterbury West) line), top left is Ashford via Maidstone East Line, the CTRL is the middle line and the SEML is below it (both going left to right), and Marshlink Line is in the bottom right. even when one works out how to show it (rotate so its vertical), but there would need to be 4 columns. Pickle 10:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Hmm, the template wasn't really designed for things like _that_, I guess. As the lines get more and more complex, either the level of detail has to be diminuished or the number of columns approaches infinity rather quickly. My best bet would be something like this:
Quite a mess I admit, but the best I could think of... --doco (☏) 18:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

message: I've amended the BS2 and BS3 templates so that the first two (or three in the case of BS3) parameters are optional - they default to 'leer' (blank space) if omitted. , for example, will now give a straight between two spaces. – Tivedshambo (talk) 07:50, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Blank ID parameters

message: If anyone has SVG editing facilities, could they consider making an equivalent to TurmBHFo and TurmBHFu for large stations please? Required for Lichfield Trent Valley on Birmingham Cross-City Line. – Tivedshambo (talk) 17:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * OK, I've just learned enough about SVG editing to produce uSTB2lf, uSTB2lg, uSTB2rg, and uHSTR myself. They've now all been uploaded to Commons, and the only English page I could find which needed them has had them added. I'm going to see what else I can get sorted out. AlexTiefling 13:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Icon request 

message: Are there icons where you culd show the start and end of a bridge, instead of the whole thing? Simply south 12:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bridge 

message: For interactions with the Tube, it appears that there are some subway (ie blue) icons missing. See the South Eastern Main Line and the interaction around New Cross with the East London Line. Pickle 18:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Incidently, are there any U-Bahn icons? Simply south 11:01, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subways

message: Shouldn't each of these images have some meaningful alt text ("junction", "terminus") etc? Andy Mabbett 20:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And title, for use as a tool-tip in conforming browsers. Andy Mabbett 17:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Alt text

message: I have noticed that Spoorstrip replaces the 'Ü' character with an 'š' character (English Version), which means that when it is copied into WP that it is not recognised, and so has to be changed manually.  Sheepcot 19:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm, I never ran into that. I'll see if I can do something about that. Actually, I am not really grateful to the Germans for using German names. HandigeHarry 16:13, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I just tested in in the English WP, and everything went fine. Perhaps it's caused by your computer's settings, but of course this does not mean that the program is not to blame. However, I do have problems with some other non-ASCII characters, and that should be fixed too. HandigeHarry 16:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Spoorstrip : SBRÜCKE etc. 

message: At Great Western Main Line there are two route maps... the only tunnel shown on the first is Box Tunnel (2,939m  / 1 mile 1452 yards), while the second shows tunnels as short as 49 yards. I feel the latter is clearly too small to be included, but I was wondering what the cut off point should be. I personally feel that any tunnel under 1km / 1,000 yards shouldn't be shown... or maybe we should go for 500m/yards. (Also, any tunnel with a WP article of its own should be shown, regardless of length). What do people think? Tompw (talk) 16:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a difference between a short tunnel on the GWR mainline, and one on a local branch, or section, so it's a matter of perspective. Also, some short tunnels may be significant, for one reason or another (site of accident, notable architecture, early date, construction technique, etc.) In this case, the South Devon tunnels are tourist attraction in their own right, though that map may belong on a separate article about that section of the line. Andy Mabbett 16:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The difference is (generally) between what you show for a simple table for a main line (see WCML and ECML), thus on that stage/scale the Box tunnel is probably worth showing. But when you get down to really detailed line, either small branches or something like the Watford DC Line that kind of detail is worth showing. Personally, on bridges, i show motorways and major dual carriageways but not every little road - again the caveat about notability comes in, then it is worth mentioning. I've had the same issue with rivers/canals on the Trent Valley Line IIRC.Pickle 19:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is the kind of question that I love. It is complex to answer, and nobody will ever be happy with the answer.  What to do?  Tunnels/Bridges/Viaducts etc.   I like the idea of "notability", which means that all recognised/important structures are included. So thats solved part of the question.  As for guidance on length, I would use a "proportion" rule.  By this I mean that if the map cover say "20 km" of railway, then any structure (Bridge/Tunnel) should be at least 1% of this total.  So for a  20km railway, then anything longer than 200m should be included, but anything less excluded, unless it meets the "notability" rule (say major roads/rivers etc.).  If we are talking about a 200km railway then this would mean that anything less than 2km would be excluded, which is interesting, as it would rule out box tunnel, were it not for the notability rule.  Similarly, Brunels bridge over the Thames at Maidenhead, and Hanwell Viaduct (both listed structures) would fall foul of the 1% rule.  I guess its a question of "what is right" .... that is very subjective. Sheepcot 20:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm also interested in questions like these. My rule of thumb has been that on simple long-distance maps, no tunnels or bridges are relevant. On more detailed maps like the Watford DC Line or the Thameslink map I'm working on now, I think every named tunnel and junction should go in if possible. Road and river bridges, though, are so common that only reasonably notable ones should ever be mentioned. AlexTiefling 09:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  When should tunnels be shown? 

message: Slightly off topic, but I've got so fed up of repeatedly typing in a station name twice in links (e.g. Wolverhampton) that I've created a template to do it. Use  and it will expand the same way. Note that this only works for station articles which are named "xxx railway station". – Tivedshambo (talk) 19:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Station links 

message: Tivedshambo  asked for a list of obsolete icons. Well here it is. The order is new|old.
Lower case prefixes are omitted.
 ABZlf|ABKlf
 ABZlf|STB1lf
 ABZrg|STB1rg
 ABZlg|STB1lg
 ABZrf|STB1rf
 ABZdf|STBdf
 ABZdg|STBdg
 STRlg|STB2lf
 STRlf|STB2lg
 STRrf|STB2rg
 STRrg|STB2rf
 2SBHF|2SHBF
 SBHFl|SHBFl
 SBHFr|SHBFr
 uTurmBHFo|uoTurmBHFo
 UTurmBHFu|uoTurmBHFu
 UTurmBHFo|uuTurmBHFo
 uTurmBHFu|uuTurmBHFu
 eUTurmBHFu|eUUTurmBHFu
 utENDEa|utWENDEa
 utENDEe|utWENDEe
 ueSTR|uexSTR
 ABZ3lg|STB3lg
 ABZ3lf|STB3lf
 ABZ3rg|STB3rg
 ABZ3rf|STB3rf
 ABZdll|ABZdl1
 ABZdrr|ABZdr1
 HandigeHarry 21:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obsolete icons 

message: Been looking at the Northern City Line and the large underground section has an interchange station with the tub, there is thus a missing icon for an interchange station between a underground rail line and tube. Pickle 19:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another new icon please 

message: Would anybody  be interested in adapting and extending this set of icons, for use in describing canal routes (I'm thinking particularly of those in the UK). Andy Mabbett 19:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The only extra icons I think you'd need would be for locks (up/down) and lock flights... anything else? Tompw (talk) 22:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly tow-paths (none, one side, other side, both sides); junctions, moorings, winding holes, wharves, boatyards. We'd really need to ask a canal project group, and perhaps run a pilot on one route. Andy Mabbett 22:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text: + Junctions with rivers, reservoirs Andy Mabbett 20:15, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

text: * Bridges with railways, roads, watercourses; tunnels; aqueducts... AlexTiefling 13:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

text:  This is now being discussed at the new UK waterways' project talk page, where there is a first-draft example. Andy Mabbett 09:54, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use for canal routes 

message: I attempted to create my first SVG files. They are intended for a tube line within a railway. Their names begin with the letters 'bub'.
After uploadng I find that the result is disappointing, so I will not employ the icons yet. I invite anyone to improve them.
HandigeHarry 20:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * I think it might be better to establish a policy of using only the red icons for lines with mixed use, and to make sure a proper set of junction icons for red-blue exists. Having a third (fifth?) type of line increases the complexity too much. AlexTiefling 13:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Can someone please (pretty please with a cherry on the top) prepare a horizontal version of the icon "LUECKE". I would be eternally grateful. Canterberry 23:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, as you ask so nicely ;-) I've created HLUECKE and its "ex" equivalent. (see right). – Tivedshambo (talk) 17:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you very much indeed, it is much appreciated.Canterberry 19:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

text:  I have a further request.  We have a symbol for the interchange between ships/trains "TRAJEKT" and "BOOT", but nothing for the interchange between planes/trains (e.g. Gatwick Airport, Stansted Airport).  Anyone up the challenge?? Canterberry 20:00, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How's this? (FLUG; can't see much need for a TRAJEKT-type icon) –EdC 23:50, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. A TRAJEKT-type icon will have limited use. However, the FLUG icon, is a masterpiece. Sir, I knight thee "sir FLUG of St. EDc. Your contribution is beyond calculation. Thank you very much. Canterberry 23:56, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New icons 

message: Check out the West Anglia Main Line ... a coordinate friendly map. -- 
Canterberry 23:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We need to ensure that EVERY map has this information. The arguments presented for NOT having this information represent a backward ideology akin to "Luddite" thought. We MUST progress. Canterberry 23:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exaggerate, much? There is no compulsion. Frankly, you have no business telling others what they 'MUST' do. As a skeptic regarding the usefulness of this data, I object to being branded a Luddite. Including things just because we can is not a plan I am keen to adopt. AlexTiefling 09:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That map is the neatest presentation incorporating coords that I have seen. However, I am still not convinced that they are required, and like Alex, I object to being told they 'MUST' be included on all maps, or that failure to do so implies backwardness. Not really an approach likely to win over many critics, is it? -- EdJogg 10:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The co-ordinates (and for that matter the distances from London Liverpool Street) add almost nothing of value to this map (and hence to the article). As with the thinking behind the London underground map - what matters is which station is next and where you can switch to another service. There is a case for including average journey times between stations and perhaps it is also useful to know the junctions, rivers and major roads that you will pass if you use the service. All the co-ordinates do is stretch the map half-way across the screen and satisfy a geeky need to catalogue data. Meddlin' Pedant 17:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Coordinate-friendly map?

message: Template:BSe gives me gray italic text. How do I get that effect for a BS2 map? --Tagishsimon (talk)
:I think you'd have to either put the grey style manually into the notes parameter (see the coding for BSe for the style code) or produce a new template, BS2e, based on BS2 and BSe. I can have a go at this if you think it's required. – Tivedshambo (talk) 14:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If gray italic can be set against individual rows, rather than the whole strip, then this would give greater flexibility.  I have tried various ways of doing this (including <scan> style and  tags)for an individual row in a copy of BS2, but just can't get it to work! If anyone gets it working, please let me know! Thanks, Lynbarn 22:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact, BS2e exists on the German Wikipedia. But you can also use font tags and double quotes. HandigeHarry 17:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: BSe version of BS2

message: Is there a way to show complex underground routes (junctions, curves etc)? For example, the Wirral Line features an underground spur which travels in a circle (the "Liverpool Loop"). I've coloured it blue for now, but since solid blue indicates trams and light rail rather than underground heavy rail, is there a better way to show this sort of route? Laïka 19:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I always thought that blue was intended for tube lines and S for trams. HandigeHarry 20:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Complex tunnels 

message: I have recently created a map for the line from Tonbridge to Hastings, and would welcome any feedback. With all the discussion about coordinates I have decided to cease any further work till this issue is decided on. It is pointless starting work on more maps when the whole issue of the information to be included is under debate. Sheepcot 21:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New Maps ; [[Hastings Line]]

message: Andy Mabbett has been reverting almost every comment on this page, so I intend to put a message on the discussion page of every editor for this page. This editor can then be judged and sentenced. Sheepcot 22:10, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reversions

message: Any thoughts on using  (LUECKE) to soften ends of lines where they continue on? e.g. Marlow Branch Line. Willkm 11:18, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was thinking something similar. It'd look nicer for one thing. Given there's no horizontal one it makes it a bit harder to use (though that could easily be resolved with a new icon). Making them all horizontal though looks good, but it makes the template longer on the page.--Simmo676 13:21, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Using LUECKE to indicate continuation 

message: Things have gone too far now.  The Waterways Tag is larger than the railways tag, and above it, on a page titled "Railway line template". The person that added this tag obviously has no knowledge of collaboration, this is a hi-jack.Sheepcot 13:47, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your unwarranted personal attack aside, please feel free to amend the waterways project template so that it tales a "small" attribute setting, like the railway one. In the absence of such a setting, I put the UKW template first because it seemed a better fit than putting a horizontal template after a square-ish one. Andy Mabbett 14:14, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: UK Waterways WikiProject

message: For some reason, on the Manchester-Sheffield-Wath electric railway diagram, on FireFox clicking on a link, instead of taking you to a page, causes the template to break apart at any place with a long placename, while these places are broken by default on Internet Explorer. How can this be fixed? Laïka 16:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You could try using shiorter descriptions, or replacing all spaces with   in any long descriptions - this will make the box wider, but all the descriptions will be on one line only. Hope that helps, Lynbarn 16:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have gone into this one and force Manchester London Road onto one line and split some of the longer descriptions over two lines. (Using IE7) --Stewart 17:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, thanks! Laïka 19:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weird glitch on template 

message: Could somebody with the appropriate software, skills, and artistic flair please produce some new icons for me? They are horizontal versions of line start/end terminus, both current and closed.  the codes are ( I think:) hKBFa, hKBFe, hKBFaex, and hKBFeex.
I tried downloading the existing equivalents, and rotating them on my PC, but that didn't work!
Many thanks, Lynbarn 14:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New icons please?

message: Is it me or has the motorway bit turned yellow ??? Pickle 03:40, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't [think] red and yellow is right for A-roads... should be either green or red. Yellow has no place on a UK road map :-) Tompw (talk) 16:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Yellow has no place on a UK road map"...except for the myriad 'B'-roads on OS maps, and perhaps the font colour on (green) trunk road signposts??? -- :o) -- EdJogg 21:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Feel free to borrow/ adapt uAKRZu2. Andy Mabbett 17:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image:BSicon AKRZu.svg 

message: The German originals of these two facilities seem to work differently - they use a CSS class "prettytable" as the first option within the table and class "hintergrundfarbe7" (background colour 7 - pink) to highlight the distance column on certain rows, for example.  What en. alternatives are there to enable thses functions? Thanks. Lynbarn 22:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  German '''BSkm''' template, and '''BS''' template "HI" option 

message: By using this, as i have noticed on Template:Brighton Main Line, the writing is slightly degraded. Simply south 11:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you mean the text (as noted in the discussion above), or the quality of the descriptive labels? AlexTiefling 12:06, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The 'From Shepperton...' line, for example? This is a known issue with the wider template - see 'Wide strips' above. AlexTiefling 12:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Thank you! AlexTiefling 14:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  - except that numbers for mileage, when used in the correct column, now appear at full size, rather than 80% as I believe was originally intended, and as is the case with the German version, and BS/BSe/BS2/BS3 I think the original problem occurs when not enough bars are applied to seperate the fields in a row including empty images, placing descriptive text in the field intended for mileage, which the Germans had intended to be smaller.  I'm not sure about this, so I will need to check later.  Regards,  Lynbarn 16:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  BS5 

message: I have asked twice (see above) for someone/anyone to set out the reasons for having coordinates on the maps and what the benefits are?  So far I note that there has been no response, especially by the editors that seem keen to have them.  I re-open the debat here. Miner2049er 09:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This was originally requested for possible use with these templates when used for UK waterways.  There is further discussion about this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK_Waterways/Coordinates + microformats. Regards, Lynbarn 11:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: "I note that there has been no response" Not true - you were answered on this page, date-stamp 10:29, 16 April 2007. Andy Mabbett 12:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What are the reasons for having coordinates on the maps and the benefits? 

message: I don't think that the 'real example' that has been added is a particularly good one.  The 'fictitious' example it replaced showed the potential for the template more effectively, and displayed the working code more clearly. Agreed an English replacement was a good idea, but there are numerous examples from the southern half of England that would do a better job.  (Cornish Main Line or North London Line anyone?)
EdJogg 08:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed with that, although maybe cut a fair bit out of them as they are rather long, but they showcase a lot more symbols and features of the template than the current one. --Simmo676 08:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

text: *How about the Plymouth to Saltash section of the Cornish Main Line as a good example? AlexTiefling 11:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gets my vote! -- EdJogg 11:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Real or fictitious, the example should at least give examples of all the fields being used, such as the mileage display.  Regards, Lynbarn 11:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Real Example"? 

message: I have noticed that some maps include the following additional text on the same line (usually) as :
 |colspan="3"|
Since  already includes |colspan="2"|, when do we need to add the additional text, or is it, in fact, always superfluous?
EdJogg 09:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know of any reason - can you supply an example? – Tivedshambo (talk) 20:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've used a colspan 7 in User:Lynbarn/Sandbox/L&BRouteMap to add a footer across the full width of the table - take it out and the footer spans the first half of the table only. Regards, Lynbarn 20:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  When is extra 'colspan' needed? 

message: I've just seen this policy page on Wikimedia Commons. It seems to be adapted freely from the German page, and does not seem to reflect the way in which the symbols are used in practice by either the English or the Dutch Wikipedias. It also contradicts itself internally, stating in one place that separated but adjacent lines should use a single column, and in another place that experimental symbols (such as all the ones showing two lines in one column) should not be used on active pages yet at all. Does anyone here have any thoughts about how this page could be developed, in appropriate consultation with the seemingly much more cautious German and more ambitious Dutch projects? AlexTiefling 12:25, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I advise against certain symbols, for example when the name is inconsistent or when a similar symbol already exists. However, the Germans seem to make everything experimental, even the icons which were made by others. I do not object against using the experimental symbols. Once they are in use, they are unnlikely to be deleted. HandigeHarry 16:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Policy page on Commons