Talk:Every Nation Churches & Ministries/Archive 1

message: I'm going to use this as a temporary holding place as issues get resolved.  Eventually this will get moved to an archive page.
===head quarters ===
Blueboy: No objection to the HQ--the main headquarters is in Brentwood, though.  I can see where you can say it's Nashville, though--the two cities are practically next door to each other.
The international head offices of Every Nation are located in Manila, Philippines and Nashville, Tennessee. Thelma Bowlen 09:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Blueboy, I assume there is no objection to this one?  jbolden1517Talk 19:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fully Resolved issues

message: Blueboy: No objection to the HQ--the main headquarters is in Brentwood, though.  I can see where you can say it's Nashville, though--the two cities are practically next door to each other.
The international head offices of Every Nation are located in Manila, Philippines and Nashville, Tennessee. Thelma Bowlen 09:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Blueboy, I assume there is no objection to this one?  jbolden1517Talk 19:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: head quarters 

message: BB - As far as the arts and entertainment ties go ... in looking at it, it's a bit too much to say that it has a vision for reaching famous people.  However, Champions for Christ is one of Every Nation's most high-profile ministries.  Also, several prominent Christians attend EN churches.  For instance, Stormie Omartian (sp?), Out of Eden and the Newsboys call Bethel World Outreach Center (Every Nation's flagship church) their home church.  Former NHL player Adam Burt (who played for the Canes when I was at Carolina) is associate pastor of Every Nation New York.
While it is true that several leaders of EN are based in Nashville, LA and New York, it is untrue that the reason is because of the arts and entertainment industry. Rather, it is due to the fact that this is either where they were already living (Nashville and LA) , responded to a need to plant a church (New York), or because our Head Office was already there (Nashville). Furthermore, key EN leaders also live in South Africa, Nigeria, Philippines, the Middle East, Canada and the United Kingdom.Misha Arturovich 09:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Famous People

message: Coming soon... my turn to sift and sort... Your patience is appreciated. Thelma Bowlen 04:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem hoping to hear from you Monday.  Anyway I moved the Maranatha stuff down and created a structure section.  I just put a few lines in the structure section.  Feel free to replace it all.  I'd like you put that together address what Every Nation is from a financial / membership perspective.  What it means to be a member church, who is funding who, doctrinal requirements, disciplinary actions....   jbolden1517Talk 01:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Thelma's Replies

message: ===Edit for Intro Paragraph===
From here on out:
top level = article
2nd level = thelma, EN, or mIsha (signed)
3rd level = jbolden (I'll sign)
It is based in Brentwood, Tennessee; a suburb of Nashville.
Several of Every Nation's leaders and ministries have past connections to Maranatha Campus Ministries, a highly controversial Charismatic organization from the 1980s.
:The Maranatha issue will be addressed in a paragraph under “Criticism” – ie, this should be addressed in the same way other controversial claims are dealt with in other Wikipedia entries. However, it is unfair to make this the focus throughout the article, in the same way it would be unfair to include in the first paragraph of the entry on Bill Clinton that: “Bill Clinton has had several adulterous affairs...” Every Nation 09:42, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed.  We are moving the Marantha thing.    You address this point yourself so I've removed from the article  jbolden1517Talk 19:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

text: This paragraph is misleading and irrelevant – since our goal is to create a great encyclopedia entry, the Newsboys and Ariel Sharon are completely irrelvant to who and what Every Nation is. This makes it sound like Every Nation’s emphasis is on reaching famous people which is not true. Famous people make up probably 0.0001 % of the total membership of Every Nation. Therefore, it is more factual to say that Every Nation reaches people, regardless of whether they are students or athletes, housewives or professionals, rich or poor, etc.Thelma Bowlen 09:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I kind of agree with you, based on summary evaluation.   567,000 best selling book, 780,000th, 243,000th ain't exactly blowing me away.  Its not like say Kabbalah Centre in LA. Why don't you propose a complete rewrite of this paragraph?  jbolden1517Talk 20:24, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thelma and Misha reply and analysis 

message: From here on out:
top level = article
2nd level = thelma, EN, or mIsha (signed)
3rd level = jbolden (I'll sign)
It is based in Brentwood, Tennessee; a suburb of Nashville.
Several of Every Nation's leaders and ministries have past connections to Maranatha Campus Ministries, a highly controversial Charismatic organization from the 1980s.
:The Maranatha issue will be addressed in a paragraph under “Criticism” – ie, this should be addressed in the same way other controversial claims are dealt with in other Wikipedia entries. However, it is unfair to make this the focus throughout the article, in the same way it would be unfair to include in the first paragraph of the entry on Bill Clinton that: “Bill Clinton has had several adulterous affairs...” Every Nation 09:42, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed.  We are moving the Marantha thing.    You address this point yourself so I've removed from the article  jbolden1517Talk 19:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit for Intro Paragraph

message: Every Nation is a high energy ministry with a strong emphasis on growth. Broocks and his colleagues had a particular gift for reaching famous people, and opening doors. Bestselling author Stephen Mansfield, for example, joined the movement around 2004 after receiving ministry from Broocks. The manager, and some members of the Newsboys, one of the largest acts in Christian Contemporary Music, have also recently working with Broocks and another prominent Every Nation leader, Jim Laffoon. In addition, Broocks met Ariel Sharon in 2005 and gained entree into Jerusalem through the influence of the deputy acting mayor. [1]
:This paragraph is misleading and irrelevant – since our goal is to create a great encyclopedia entry, the Newsboys and Ariel Sharon are completely irrelvant to who and what Every Nation is. This makes it sound like Every Nation’s emphasis is on reaching famous people which is not true. Famous people make up probably 0.0001 % of the total membership of Every Nation. Therefore, it is more factual to say that Every Nation reaches people, regardless of whether they are students or athletes, housewives or professionals, rich or poor, etc.Thelma Bowlen 09:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I kind of agree with you, based on summary evaluation.   567,000 best selling book, 780,000th, 243,000th ain't exactly blowing me away.  Its not like say Kabbalah Centre in LA. Why don't you propose a complete rewrite of this paragraph?  jbolden1517Talk 20:24, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed Edits for History Section

message: #Thelma, OK I want a time line. When did the Wagner make the first statements indicating he believed EN was part of the NAC (New Apostolic Churches)? When did EN make their first statement that they were not part of the movement? Who made the statement. Where. First, when who and where it came from an authoritative source?... 
#Blueboy, what evidence do we have that EN is part of the New Apostolic Reformation? 
#Now as an aside for the ignorant mediator. Why does this matter? I don't understand what's being debated so can one of you fill me in on why this is an issue of contention? jbolden1517Talk 20:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For jbolden – I think we can help you out here. Peter Wagner is recognized within much of  the evangelical church community as an expert on church growth and missiology. He was also formerly an associate professor on staff with Fuller Theological Seminary, also considered to be a mainstream evangelical seminary. Wagner was the honorary dean of ENLI when he was associated with Fuller, as he was our initial link to Fuller Theological Seminary, which provides masters level accreditation for several of our more advanced ENLI courses. However, when Wagner ceased to be on staff with Fuller, he also ceased to be honorary dean of ENLI.  He wrote a book called The New Apostolic Churches,  published in 2000. He asked Rice Broocks to write a chapter about EN (then known as Morning Star International), which he did. However, the writing of this book pre-dates the promotion of a “new apostolic reformation” and EN is not and has never claimed to be part of the new apostolic reformation. We have never made an official statement that we are not part of the new apostolic reformation for the same reason that we have never made an official statement that we are not part of the Roman Catholic Church – because we are not. Thelma BowlenTalk 09:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply re. Peter Wagner and New Apostolic Reformation

message: :: Now Tom "Big Tommy" Sirotnak assuming this guy is leadership may be a real scandal.  I have a few things that need to be clarified.  Blueboy these 3 are for you
:: 1)  The articles comments about priesthood of the believer make no sense. When I read the reference what I hear instead is a claim of institutional abuse.  
::: I began to see error and abuse in our discipleship philosophy and view of apostolic authority comparative to how other organization operated. Much of it was very similar to what led to the demise of Maranatha Ministries in the late 1980s. I had appealed, on a number of occasions to Rice Broocks and Phil Bonasso to look at these issues of authoritarianism and hyper-submission. The results were that I was label bitter and rebellious. I begged them to look into each individual case and to see if there was any merit to what I was saying. For the most part, it just fell on deaf ears. 
::: I told Rice It was out of my zeal for this MSI that I brought up these various points of observable church abuse or why I would dare question apostolic authority, was that I did not want to see us go through another "Maranatha" split up like when the Wall Street Journal and Christianity Today came after us. 
::: It was not intent to bring you fellow brothers into all this but now that you are, my prayer is that MSI would reform their discipleship tactics and stance on apostolic authority over the local church and its individuals. I stand by this testimony and would be glad to answer any questions or lend any clarification as to what I have said. I am also open for any of feed back you have. 
::: But, I am opposed to the type authority that would exploit its members through control and guilt manipulation, or to propose to know ones destiny better than that individual, or deem the actions of a member as rebellious or unteachable because they don't fit the MSI mold, or to proclaim spiritual superiority of the apostolic board over the local Pastor. I still hold to almost every core value MSI stands for. Only I feel those values have been more biblically aligned and seasoned with grace.
:: 2)  I also have some question about whether this guy was every really leadership in EN.  He takes about MSI in 2004 and he seems active in the anti cult movement.  Other than that I don't see much about him other than a less than distinguished career where  I find basically doing school assemblies 
:: 3)  The "abuse" seems pretty mild to me.  OTOH there "abuse" allegations for marantha are similar and you both seem to agree that Marantha is scum so I'll put my own feelings aside here.  What exactly is he alleging occurs?  jbolden1517Talk 04:34, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If I'm hearing you correctly you are saying that Tommy disagreed with the official doctrines of his church, preached from their pulpits about that and was fired for it.  That happens in most churches.  For it to be a scandal they have to violate stated policy.  How come you aren't a Unitarian or something?  You seem to be basically a very liberal christian why did you pick a hard core right wing conservative church?  jbolden1517Talk 05:32, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's not it.   He was fired for doing somethign against the doctrine which they claim they never practiced! Anonymou 05:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not a liberal Christian at all but Blue is.  I'm just as right wing as EN. You're not a Christian, right?  I find it funny that you seem to be taking sides with a Christian organization with deceptive practices. Anonymou 05:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tommy Sirotnak