Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Flag Template/Archive 2

message: If you notice that flag icons have vanished, it may be because User:Centrx has edited a protected template which is part of the flag icon tools.  Some flag icons have been broken.  The user claims there was discussion in numerous forums, although apparently not here.  (SEWilco 18:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The change has been reverted.  (SEWilco 19:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Could you explain: "this is not necessary to be within template expansion limits". I don't understand that part. --Ligulem 12:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See #Major code cleanup request. A reason for needing templates within templates is that there cannot be more than 2MB of templates on a page (though to me this seems like a limit that could never be reached with a reasonable use of flags on an article). This limit, however, would only require one level of templates within templates, not three. —Centrx→talk • 02:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Replacing this template system with some fat switch(es) would be a bad idea (see Sherool's post further up). The current system is complex but technically effective and quite efficient, especially with regards to Wikipedia:Template limits. It is also extensible, which switches aren't (you can add new templates – with a switch you have to edit the template containing the switch and adding cases). The vandalism problem that comes with having many templates can be addressed by protecting. The complexity by documenting/explaining. --Ligulem 00:41, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

text: A "fix" requires a technology which you find acceptable.  Maybe someone is working on the "data" concept which Jimbo mentioned over a year ago.  (SEWilco 16:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  11 December 2006 icons broken 

message: Ok. So now we have CBD's template:USA as discussed above. Can we now put this into use on the articles and go orphanning Template:Country alias USA, Template:Country alias United States,
Template:Country flag alias USA, Template:Country flag alias United States, and
Template:Country shortname alias USA for a start? Can we now replace the calls as shown in the table below?
New call                        	Old call
 =                  	 =
 =        	 =
 =                 	 = 
 =	 = 
I say yes. The new system uses less templates and reduces the complexity. Any objections to put this into use for the USA flag now? I'm volunteering to do this, with the help of my WP:AWB fork (no bot run, manually checking every diff before saving). --Ligulem 10:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you proposing?  First list which features of the current system you're willing to keep and which you're willing to get rid of.  (SEWilco 16:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a trap question right? I think my proposal is clear. And the motivation has been discussed. --Ligulem 17:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

text: To give a specific example: on Andre Agassi, I would replace all calls of  with  (sandbox edit). The resulting page would no longer use Template:Country alias USA and Template:Country flag alias USA. It would instead use template:USA and template:flag icon. The latter would be shared as soon as other flags have been converted. But I'm only asking for USA at the moment. As a first step. --Ligulem 17:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it is not clear what you are proposing.  The announcement which you put on several templates does not make clear that you are only referring to the "USA" usage, as opposed to using "USA" as an example of a template call.    In order to orphan Template:Country flag alias United States you'll also replace things like , requiring "USA" for all calls.  You also aren't listing which features of the current system you'll affect and which you won't affect.  Perhaps you should ask in the talk pages of Andre Agassi and several other pages which you'll affect.  Such as Chicago Cubs, Formula One, List of terrorist incidents, Organization of American States, Tour de France, United Nations Security Council. (SEWilco 19:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again... so far as I can see all currently used features will be supported. If there is some capability you think isn't covered by Template:Flag icon please say what it is and we can look at it. If you think the current configuration has advantages over the proposed please say what those are and we can discuss them. You mention 'USA' only being allowed, but Ligulem had already proposed 'flagdata United States' (though I might prefer the shorter 'flag United States') for variants other than the three letter codes. Also, again, I think that all current template calls in Andre Agassi and the other pages you list could be left completely unchanged - by redoing , , , and so forth as calls to the appropriate country template... basically just a matter of reshuffling the parameters passed in, as demonstrated in one of my previous comments. If Ligulem is offering to do the work of converting them all to direct calls instead I don't see a problem with that, but please indicate what it might be if you do. --CBD 21:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect SEWilco wants to keep the current system without any change. If that's the case, then it would at least be fair to say so. We can then spare us the time argumenting here. The current system can be improved as has been laid out on this talk page. Not improving here is a lost chance in anticipating dissent from other wikipedians. People have already complained about the complexity of the current system. Some of them are also against having flags on the articles. Keeping the current system unchanged is ammunition for them. Best regards, --Ligulem 22:12, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, I want this to change.  I defined these Flag Templates as being temporary until better tools become available.  Is this a better tool, when you're still figuring out what is needed?  (SEWilco 22:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm figuring out what is needed? --Ligulem 23:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm withdrawing this in favor of User:Ligulem/work/flag templates rework. See below. --Ligulem 17:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing USA flag calls 

message: As I read this discussion, I saw that you where afraid of the include size, thus I checked on the template I made before, and specially it's talk page where the template is used seven times, the result in the source code is:

 →AzaToth 00:01, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Template:Country name alias]] 

message: Existing calls:
*  = 
*  = 
Using User:Ligulem/work/flag templates rework:
*  = 
*  = 
See
* , compare with 
Modifications done for this:
* Template:Country2
* Template:Country flagcountry2
I admit this is getting very hairy. Thoughts? --Ligulem 13:13, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  =  – --Ligulem 13:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Maybe this is simply not worth the potential problems with regards to increased complexity. Compare also with  = , which simply uses . --Ligulem 14:14, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My 2 bits - I think the right approach is to work all the historical flags into the same country data structure, but use different structures only for historical nations (e.g. don't put East Germany data into the Germany country data).  This seems most logical to me, and also less likely to result in a proliferation of country data variants.  Of course, that means more work up front to design a clean solution, but I have confidence in you.  ;)  Andrwsc 18:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ligulem did just what I thought of when I read Andrwsc's comment.  Simply put more flag_alias entries in the country_data_* template.  By appending variant after a hyphen, several flag_alias entries can be identified, such as flag alias-1889 pointing to a different flag image.  Even better, , which displays the image, has access to all the country_data info and is able to select which flag to show (and has flexibility in changing the display format).  Looks nice.  (SEWilco 02:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

text:  The example of "Brazil-imperial" points out that in addition to a separate flag there may be a need for a separate article and a different country label.  These would only be needed in templates which show a country label (an icon alone can only be linked to the image).  (SEWilco 02:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Handling variants, such as historical flags 

message: As a first example for real usage, I've copied European Union to User:Ligulem/work/European Union and converted the calls there  (I also created the needed data templates for that article with the help of this). Compare the list of used templates in European Union with the list in User:Ligulem/work/European Union. --Ligulem 18:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Usage example: European Union 

message: See Template:Country flag alias Caribbean. Is this the correct flag image? --Ligulem 22:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is an ISO "CRB" abbreviation, but what entity does it refer to and what is its flag?  There are only a few linked items in Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Country_flag_alias_Caribbean  (SEWilco 04:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template:Country flag alias Caribbean 

message: Please contribute to the discussion on flag icons at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Flag icons - manual of style entry?. (SEWilco 14:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion at MoS on flag icons 

message: I'm working on the Fieseler Fi 156 page, and need something along the lines of Template:GER except with the German WW2 (Nazi) flag to be historically accurate. Is there a template for that? Also, is there a place where I can find a list of all of the flag icons that can be called using the Template:(countrycode) format? This list helped loads but only shows current nations, and the category for flag templates is woefully incomplete (Template:PNG was not included, for instance). Thanks! - Aerobird Target locked - Fox One! 16:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Try   (SEWilco 03:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes! Thank you! :-) - Aerobird Target locked - Fox One! 03:41, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help! Nazi Germany 

message: Thought y'all might want to know that a whole load of extranious pages have been categorised under :Category:Flag templates. True, there were a number of country templates that needed to be added, but somebody went overboard... - Aerobird Target locked - Fox One! 14:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for reporting. I did a Special:Recentchangeslinked/Category:Flag_templates and looked for changed templates. Quickly spotted template:SYR: . User:Akradecki simply forgot to wrap the cat into noincludes :-) (this sort of error happens easily, I have done this error myself too occasionally :-). So, just an error, not vandalism (I toned down the section title from "Categorisation vandalism" to "Categorisation error"). And fixed it. --Ligulem 15:34, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the fix. :-) - Aerobird Target locked - Fox One! 15:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The job queue is currently floating around 20'000 entries, so it will take some time until the articles are updated. So don't be surprised if the cat is still overpopulated at the moment :-). On Mondays it might take half an hour or so until the servers have caught up... --Ligulem 15:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categorisation error 

message: :Because it's untranscluded in articles I've redirected Template:Country flagISO2 (has a total of 5 transclusions) to Template:Country flagcountry2 and removed the ISO options from Template:Country/doc (). Would anybody yell at me if I would mass remove the now unused "ISO alias" and "flag ISO alias" parameters from the country data templates? --Ligulem 14:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't yell!  I just don't think we need a template that translates a long name to a country code.  I think we only need for the flagxxx templates to accept country codes as input arguments, and that is accomplished by creating redirects such as from  to , to name one example.  Obviously, the flagISO methods originally conceived have not been used by editors since then, so I think it is safe to remove them during this re-implementation effort.  Andrwsc 17:41, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ISO alias, flag ISO alias 

message: I've done a major rewrite of the project page to adapt for the new template system used (the country data templates). --Ligulem 16:29, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major rewrite of the project page 

message: A few months ago, people starting using alternate flag images for flag icons, specifically, modifications to the "main" flag image to put a black border around it.  The improvement is noticable at 22x20px (e.g. compare Japan at  vs. ).  This method seems to have caught on instead of using the  template for a couple of reasons (my speculation): it is simpler to add the bordered version to the flag template, thereby instantly updating all occurances, and it results in less complexity in the eventual page rendering.
One problem is that the bordered versions do not look very good when shown at a larger size.  The  template produces much better results.  This means that editors are forced to use the image directly instead of using any of the flag templates (e.g. compare  vs. ) vs. 
What I would like to propose is that we add "icon alias" entries to the country_data templates for nations that need a "(bordered)" version for icon usage. The flag templates would select either "flag alias" or "icon alias" based on the presence of the "size" parameter or not.  For example, the code for  would now look like:
|Flag of 
(This is off the top of my head and not sandboxed, but you get the idea.)
One other benefit I can see by having both bordered and non-bordered versions of the flag within the country_data structures is that it might stop or reduce edit/revert cycles over which one is "best".  Editors have two methods by which to get the flag they want.  Normal usage of flagicon or flagcountry would give the icon version (if available); editors can override and get the non-bordered version by specifying any size (even 22x20px).
I think using the size parameter as the "key" for selection makes most sense because it is the size of the flag that determines whether or not the "(bordered)" versions look good or not. Andrwsc 20:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to know how to proceed with #countryname instead of label alias and #Template:flag and the link to the Wikipedia article before adding additional parameters to the country data templates. --Ligulem 09:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough.  My wife also tells me to finish some projects before starting new ones...  ;)  Andrwsc 17:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

text: FWIW, I say use  and simply do this on a flag-by-flag basis consistently (starting with  and its variants!), for flags with white that will hit the edge of the picture.  I.e., fix all the templates, rather that resort to using alt. images that look terrible at full size.SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 11:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bordered icons

message: I think by far the most common usage of flag icons is for sports result pages.  It seemed as though they were mostly what I have been editing recently to update flag template calls.  One observation is that several team sports each have their own very large set of flag templates that effectively reproduce what we have implemented here.  For example, check out :Category:National football team templates, which has approximately 850 templates alone!  Other sports, such as ice hockey, rugby union and cricket all have similar template sets, but they are not as well-documented as the football ones.
Some problems with this system are that the calling convention for historic flags is different between sports, and different from the variant labels we have started to use.  Furthermore, they are not always accurate or complete.  For example, not all of the US flag variants exist, so some editors had to resort to using the image directly.  Another example - Canada is shown as only having one historic flag (see ) when there were actually three different red ensigns.
What I'd like to propose, and this will have to be done with approval of each sport's WikiProject, is to consolidate upon the country_data templates and replace the sport-specific templates.  It was trivially easy to create a single template that I would estimate can be used for 90% of those football specific ones.  I created  as the main template to render the flag and link, and then  for a football specific one.
For example:
Old        	Old	→	New           	New
   	   	→	    	
	   	→		
This is an extremely scalable system.  We only need per-sport templates (like ) for football, but for ice hockey, basketball, rugby union, etc. as per :Category:National sports teams to replace over a thousand specific instances.  There are a few special cases where the team flag is different or the team name is different (e.g. instead of New Zealand national rugby union team, the preferred name is at All Blacks), but the beauty of the country_data system is that special cases can be handled there (for example, use an override parameter like "rugby union national team = All Blacks" inside country_data_New_Zealand).  Some tweaking to  is needed to pick up those names, as is handling of nations that have both men's and women's team articles, but neither is a big deal.
In any case, I'd like to get some discussion and consensus here before bringing this to the respective sports wikiprojects.  Andrwsc 20:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm somewhat frightened by the idea of adding "rugby union national team = All Blacks" inside country_data_New_Zealand. But  I could be wrong. --Ligulem 09:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that was one thought I had too.  It makes the country_data system less elegant in some ways, but perhaps more powerful in other ways.  I just hate to see hundreds to thousands of redundant templates...  Andrwsc 17:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: National team templates

message: vs. 
The squashed images of complex flags when shrunk can obscure the entire design.  I recommend we use the simplified small flag designs at :Commons:Category:Flag icons instead.--Pharos 09:20, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I vastly prefer the first to the second; and the sizes of the latter can't be normalized; the ones you're suggesting are all laterally squished, with incorrect proportions.SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 11:16, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PS: The beauty of using the real thing is that if one wants to see the little details (cf.  for example) just click on the flag!SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 11:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The whole point is that the designs are simplified so that you can actually recognize the flags at small scale.  It would be possible to code it to click on the flag icons and go to the main flag images, if one wanted to.  Also, if you have problems with this particular set of  simplifications, it is always possible to modify them.--Pharos 16:45, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't find the US icon any more recognizable than the 22px version of the "real thing" - in fact, less so because the proportions and colors are wrong.  Also, using a fixed small size image totally obsoletes the "size=" parameter, so you could not use the standard templates to render flags at any size, but only the default size.  Andrwsc 17:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I recognized the point, Pharos, I just think that the "simplified" icons look bad.  They look cartoonish and amateur, like something from the Web ca. 1995.  And as noted, they simply don't work.  If you click on them to get a good look at the flag, you don't get a good look at the flag. While there is a hack that lets images act as anchors to something else around here, there's been talk of TfDing that template, just in the last week.SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 20:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use simplified flag icons 

message: I'm running into trouble trying to add an appropriate flag icon for Battle of Peregonovka (1919). Thanks. Jacob Haller 17:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What image do you need?  What is "Black" supposed to refer to?  Andrwsc 17:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Either a plain black flag or a black/red horizontal bicolor with red on the top and black on the bottom. (noth were used). I assumed this was the place to look because the opposite side had a "flagicon". Jacob Haller 17:57, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, well, if the flag image doesn't exist yet, then I'd suggest asking at Wikipedia:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology or Commons:WikiProject Flags.  Those folks are good with graphic editors etc. to create the correct SVG images.  At this WikiProject, we're concerned with the maintenance of the templates that are used to render them in iconic form in articles.  Hope this helps, Andrwsc 18:06, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: How can people add non-national flag icons?

message: Can someone help with working out why the Bahrain flag doesn't display in the Template:Country data Bahrain  It should be to the left of this sentence when diplaying correctly. - Ctbolt 02:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I purged the cache of the image on Wikipedia and Commons and it fixed the issue. If it still isn't displaying for you, you need to clear your browser cache. Cheers. --MZMcBride 03:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: thanks - Ctbolt 04:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bahrain Flag not displaying in flagicon template 

message: Four of the testcalls at Template:Country data West Indies are not working, showing Flag of West Indian cricket team instead of the flag itself. I don't know what's wrong; any ideas? (Yes, I have purged the cache.)Avenue 22:37, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see any problems right now.  None of the underlying templates have changed, and this kind of problem has almost always been a cache issue before.  Andrwsc 22:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's working again for me now too. Thanks for checking.Avenue 01:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No worries!  I wish I knew how to stop this problem from happening, as it does from time to time.  These flag templates are quite stable now, so it's not going to be an issue with them in most cases.  Andrwsc 03:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text showing instead of West Indies flag icon 

message: I think these templates such as  should have the flag removed or the template should removed for the majority of pages as per WP:Flags (Gnevin 10:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is an essay not policy. Furthermore, making mass edits to templates used as many places as is the case here would be a certain way to kill off the servers. Valentinian T / C 13:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not talking about changing these without consensus which I know properly wont happen a once off change would not kill the server , their is a police somewhere that states we should only worry about the project and let the server people worry about load. Also i am a wear is a essay but was looking for opinion on this. In a nutshell why have
**New York  . The flag is totally unneeded here
**New York , United States. Is fine  (Gnevin 14:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:PERF is the "don't worry about the servers" thing. Carcharoth 16:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Overhaul now complete, though it's big and bold enough a revert is likely, actually it looks like it stuck after after all so here's a link to the history version.  I'm sure it has some remaining issues, though some of the one's I've seen raised in the past that could apply to the new version, like "don't use  to refer to Ancient Ireland" strike me as total WP:BEANS or at very least WP:CREEP, since the templates are generally not being frequently abused that way.SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]   ‹(-¿-)› 00:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It would also make sense to make the redirect point to WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology. Valentinian T / C 23:54, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Meh. They've already got enough going there, and for Wikipedian purposes this project is more important/more used.SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]   ‹(-¿-)› 00:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Which project do you refer to?SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]   ‹(-¿-)› 20:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for opinion of [[WP:Flags]]

message: See Template talk:Country data Chinese Taipei and Template talk:Country data United States for two bug reports, one with regard to missing flag options, the other (respectively) about a flag simply not diplaying (tested in both Safari/Mac and Firefox/XP).SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]   ‹(-¿-)› 20:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone looked into this further? I've posted test case at the US talk page, and don't know enough about the guts of the flag metatemplates to confidently fix the Taipei situation myself.SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]   ‹(-¿-)› 21:50, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was hoping you'd make a WP:BOLD move and simply fix them yourself; it took me about 3 minutes to add the Chinese Taipei variants.  Let me know if this is OK.  As for the US flag, it appears to be a cache issue (as per some previous comments on that talk page) so no work is needed on the template side.  Andrwsc 21:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't feel confident enough that I understood the fine workings of those templates to WP:BOLD it. And thanks for the note about the US flag issue; I hadn't seen the comment. D'oh.SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]   ‹(-¿-)› 22:35, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, no worries!  User:Ligulem has created a fairly elegant system for these templates, and I've seen several other editors start adding new variants, but I guess it's still a bit involved to figure out how it works.  If you cut&paste from an existing template, you should be ok!  As for the cache issue, I would like to know how to fix it myself since it is a frequently occuring problem, judging from the comments I've seen.  Andrwsc 22:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

text: PS: I've tried every purge I can think of - the commons page, the WP image page, and the WP template page - and it hasn't worked.  There may just actually be something wrong with the SVG image file.SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]   ‹(-¿-)› 22:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I may have fixed the US 13 star flag problem.  I re-saved the current SVG file in Inkscape as a "Plain SVG" (without Inkscape extensions) and that seemed to do the trick.  The file size is about 8x smaller too.  The only problem is that I was a bit stupid in my upload on Commons, accidentally adding "Image" to the filename (e.g. :Image:Image-US flag 13 stars – Betsy Ross.svg) but I've posted a request for help on Commons helpdesk to move it over.  Here is what it looks like at 22x20px: .  Andrwsc 23:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, that's easy: You just upload a new copy at the correct name (which in this case will overwrite the original that is giving us this display problem), with the same licensing, description, etc. details, and then speedy delete the original that's at the bad name.  Less helpfully, I don't remember the exact name of the speedy del. template over there, but finding it is probably a matter of putting "speedy deletion" in the search box at Commons and hitting "Search" (as opposed to "Go", which would probably bring up images relating to speedy deletion on WP.)SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]   ‹(-¿-)› 08:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I only just created a commons account yesterday, so there's not much I could do as a new user.  Another user has updated the commons SVG with my reduced version, but it doesn't seem to make a difference yet.  Perhaps now it is a cache problem.  Andrwsc 00:18, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Two bug reports

message: Few weeks ago I've added 1918 flag to this template but this flag doesn't render correctly. I'm not SVG expert but this flag renders properly when called with "round" px values, like 20 or 30px. Flag templates call for 22px wide and this size is not displayed - there is empty place and country link. Is is possible to fix this SVG file or fix template in any other way? Regards, Piotr Mikołajski 14:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not an SVG expert either, but I've encountered this situation before.  I simply opened the image in Inkscape and re-saved it as "plain SVG" instead of "Inkscape SVG" and re-uploaded the smaller image file.  The simpler version seems to have fewer rendering problems.  You might want to try that and see if it works.  Andrwsc 16:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Template:Country data Ukraine]]

message: It appears that we have a split opinion here, and I'd like to see some clear consensus before I go back and make any changes to these high-use templates.  Here is a quick summary of the situation:
====Bordered image variants====
Recognizing that certain flags (such as  and ) look poor in icon form because of the large amount of whitespace, alternate SVG images were created (such as  and ).  This solution has been in place for several months, but has a few drawbacks:
#It requires the creation and/or maintenance of more than one image per flag.
#Several flags that could benefit by a border do not currently have the alternate "(bordered)" SVG variant.
#There is some inconsistency in the color and size of the borders in those SVG files, so there are subtle differences in the icon versions.
#Since the border is part of the SVG image, it scales along with the image, producing undesirable results when the size= parameter is used to create larger icons.
====MediaWiki border syntax====
Now that the border option is available for images, it had started to be used for several flags, as a potential solution to all the issues listed above.  You can see the improvement in  and  compared to the "(bordered)" SVG used above.  However, the border option places a one pixel border around the image, so a partial implementation of the border syntax results in mis-aligned lists, such as:
* England
* Argentina
* Japan
* Germany
* South Korea
* France
* Sweden
To resolve this problem, I updated the main flag rendering templates to consistently use a border, such as:
* England
* Argentina
* Japan
* Germany
* South Korea
* France
* Sweden
The only(?) problem with this current solution is that while some additional flags benefit from the border (e.g. Argentina and France), other flags clearly don't need it and some people think they look worse (e.g. Germany and Sweden)
====Possible solution====
If we don't have consensus for the current solution, then I also oppose going back to the original method.  I really think the "(bordered)" SVG images ought to be deprecated and eventually deleted.  Perhaps a per-flag solution might work, where the size of the icon is adjusted for flags that have a border, like this:
* England
* Argentina, or
* Argentina
* Japan
* Germany
* South Korea
* France, or
* France
* Sweden
This is more work to implement, but not impossible.  However, I anticipate some possible edit-warring over border or no border for flags like France, Argentina, Hungary, etc.  This would need to be resolved.
====Comments====
Please place your comments here.
;Support for current solution (borders on all flags)
* I do not have a problem with borders for all icons, but I am willing to implement the per-flag solution if consensus mandates it.  Andrwsc 16:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Summary of situation

message: Please place your comments here.
;Support for current solution (borders on all flags)
* I do not have a problem with borders for all icons, but I am willing to implement the per-flag solution if consensus mandates it.  Andrwsc 16:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: I tried adding | flag alias-colonial = Maltaflag.jpeg to Template:Country data Malta, along with a variants block (copy/pasted from Template:Country data Germany), but it didn't like me. Could someone who understands the system better please (a) fix it for me (Malta needs an alias-colonial pointing to :Image:Maltaflag.jpeg or an SVG thereof) and (b) put some better documentation into WP:WPFT to explain how to do this for people who haven't done it before?  :o)
Thanks!OwenBlacker 16:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  Andrwsc 16:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Doh! That's irritatingly obvious. Thank you!OwenBlacker 16:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help please: [[Template:Country data Malta]] 

message: FOTW lists a colonial flag for Seychelles that I can't find on Wikipedia. Does someone fancy adding it?  :o)OwenBlacker 16:18, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your best bet is to ask at Wikipedia:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology.  This project is more concerned about the templates to render those images, not the images themselves.  Andrwsc 16:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Will do; thanks!OwenBlacker 17:08, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Seychelles]] 

message: Hi, I'm relatively new to Wikipedia, so I was wondering if you could help me out;
There is a page I've been working on for the past number of weeks which I was hoping to attach flagicons to (you can find the page in question here). However, the flags are not flags of countries, they are GAA county colours (if you know what that means, you can find them here). I would greatly appreciate if you could help me out on this.   Deco16-10 12:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't need to use these templates to add icon-sized images to your page.  Just put something like  in the appropriate place to display this: .  Andrwsc 03:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can you help me? 

message: See Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 August 1 for a set of Country_data templates I nominated today for deletion, and my reasons for doing so.  Andrwsc 18:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Several templates nominated for deletion 

message: There has been some discussion and edit warring over the use of the 1940 German flag in an article on the Fanta product which was originally formulated in Germany in 1940. A debate has opened for those interested: Talk:Fanta#Debate_on_use_of_flag_in_Fanta_article. SilkTork 10:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This WikiProject is probably not the best place for that kind of discussion.  It is concerned with the how of flag icons, not the what, where, or why.  You might want to post a message to Wikipedia talk:Don't overuse flags to reach the right editors.  Hope this helps, Andrwsc 14:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of Nazi Flag in the [[Fanta]] article 

message: I have noticed there is no flag for the Taxkorgan Tajik Autonomous County, in Xinjiang, China. Does anyone here no what the flag looks like or if there even is a flag? If there are any experienced Vexologists or people who know of any then that would be highly appreciated. Londium 23:25, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The best place to ask is Wikipedia:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology. This WikiProject is concerned with how to render flag images as icons, not with what the images themselves look like.  Hope this helps, Andrwsc 04:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help needed 

message: A different flag seems to be used officially by the IRB; see here: http://www.irb.com/unions/union=11000001/index.html. It looks like the 4prov flag with something in the middle? Maybe the big logo on that page? —MC 01:13, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a great find.  This should be brought to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby union for discussion.  If we can get an SVG image created from those components, we would have an appropriate replacement.  We did the same thing for the field hockey team () once a team flag was found.  Andrwsc 03:55, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Seems to be this flag. --StuartBrady (Talk) 11:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like the right one. Chandlertalk 13:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Copied to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby union. —MC 15:55, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: IRB vs. IRFU all-Ireland flags

message: Is it my settings or browser, or am I seeing a general breakage of the  template system at the moment?  is appearing as something like (a) Flag of Canada Canada instead of the normal flag icon followed by country name, something like (b)  Canada (as a test,  should look more like (b) than (a)). Similar probs seen for  --> ,  --> , etc. Dl2000 01:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm experiencing the same problem with so many other flags, I can't name them all. Parutakupiu 02:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a recurring problem, and for some reason, has hit many flags today.  You need to purge the cache of each image on Commons.  The problem does not lie with this template system.  Andrwsc 02:17, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm having the same issue with a bunch of flags on .  Had to purge on the image page "?action=purge".  Hope they fix it. Morphh  (talk) 3:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The fix was only temporary.  Not shortly after.. they started to break again. Morphh  (talk) 4:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Same thing happening with . See 2007 Rugby World Cup#Nations. Morphh, I'm assuming you either did this for all of them, or at least well known ones. On given page, RSA, Canada, Japan, Italy, New Zealand, Romania and Namibia don't work. CowplopmorrisTalkContribs 08:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The effect is temporary and different for each computer.. I'm on a new computer today and all the ones I fixed yesterday for myself are having issues with this computer now. I left a message on commons. Morphh  (talk) 12:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From another thread elsewhere: "sometimes Wikipedia do not render some images for some hours but they usually come back. I have seen it for years. It seems to happen more often during high load. And it happened a lot the last few hours with our images here. I think it is a simple priority setting in the servers, when they are too busy they render the text but skip the images. --David Göthberg 11:36, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: General flag template breakage?

message: I noticed the team handball templates, , ,  and .  Just wondering if these should be renamed for consistency (maybe to thm, thm-rt, thw and thw-rt) before I create documentation for them...? --StuartBrady (Talk) 21:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, I hadn't seen them before.  My suggestion would be to use "hb" as the root template name.  My naming style for the templates I created was to use the two letter "sport code" that the IOC uses on their website for each sport, such as this page for football.  The only exception to this rule so far was to use "fh" instead of "ho" for field hockey, but most of the others ("fb", "bk", "vb", "ih") follow that style.  They even have a placeholder web page for rugby under "ru", so I guess we can include that too!  Thanks, Andrwsc 21:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see you've moved them to , ,  and , and you've even created .  Thanks! --StuartBrady (Talk) 16:08, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  {{tl|mht}} and {{tl|wht}} 

message: A few days ago, I nominated :Template:DEE for deletion (for reasons provided on the TfD page), but as of this moment, only three editors have provided comments.  There needs to be more opinion to reach consensus.  Thanks, Andrwsc 16:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template nominated for deletion 

message: There's a slight dispute at List of current world boxing champions concerning witch Union Jack flagicon edit to use (yes, I know it's the same result - Union Jack). I'm pushing for UK or United Kingdom (which includes Northern Ireland), other want GBR or Great Britain (which excludes Northern Ireland). When I made these minor changes, I never expected to be disputed or reverted, having figured it would accepted if a British boxer's full nationality was represented. GoodDay 14:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: GBR is a standard 3-letter abbreviation for the United Kingdom (Great Britain and Northern Ireland), it is used by both the IOC and ISO, and it really doesn't matter whether ,  or even  is used in the code, as they all mean the same thing and they all produce the same thing. - MTC 15:25, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've given up the dispute, though GBR/Great Britain is incorrect (as it excludes Northern Ireland). I must admit, I was surprised by the reaction to my edits at that article (because it still showed the Union Jack). Obviously, politics and sports don't mix. GoodDay 21:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know why you think "GBR" excludes Northern Ireland.  GBR is the IOC country code, and N.I. athletes are welcome to compete for "Team GB" (actually, they have a choice to compete for IRL if they want).  GBR is also the ISO country code for the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.  You might wish that ISO chose a different three letter acronym that includes a "U" and a "K", but GBR is what they chose.  Andrwsc 21:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was naively unaware of IOC and ISO codes. My changes from GBR to UK were made with good intentions. If anyone even wishs to restore those British boxers as English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish boxers, I'm not going to dispute that either. Sorry for raising a stink, it wasn't what I wanted or expected. GoodDay 21:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: flagicon|UK '''or''' flagicon|GBR

message: I'm making a new list and trying to make the nationality sortable, but  isn't sortable. Though,  is. I wouldn't mind using  except it displays the name of the country next to the flag...which I do not want because of the space it can take up. Are there any sortable flag templates that do not show the name of the country next to it? Or am I going to just deal with one or the other? BsroiaadnTalk 23:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm.  I think the behaviour might have recently changed.  When used in a sortable table, the sort string used to be  the alt attribute of the flag image, which is usually "Flag of Nation", and therefore, sortable by nation name.  I'd check on Bugzilla perhaps to see if the sortable code changed, and in the meantime, perhaps use something like  as an interim fix, as below.  Andrwsc 23:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you very much. BsroiaadnTalk 01:53, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sortable version of flagicon 

message: the template  is broken, and braking other pages along the way, as you can see in TRIP Linhas Aéreas#Services, and in List of town tramway systems in Brazil#.C2.A0Paraíba. perhaps the double noinclude is to blame?--Ben Stone 05:49, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The second noinclude section had an embedded line break, which I removed.  Andrwsc 06:00, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broken implementation - help 

message: The default flag that comes up with the flag code is the newer version with the coat of arms. The template for the Polish flag has the original 1919 flag displayed in the upper right, but all the examples are of the new version. How do I produce the flag without the arms? Askari Mark (Talk) 05:08, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seemed to be a problem with the image on Commons, so I purged the cache.  The template looks correct now.   results in , and  results in .  Andrwsc 05:16, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Andrew ... but both examples still appear with the coa on my screen. A potential problem with Explorer? Askari Mark (Talk) 05:30, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, maybe try the instructions in Wikipedia:Bypass your cache for your browser and see if that fixes it.  Andrwsc 05:37, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, having shut it down last night and started it back up today seems to have done the trick as well, since there's now a difference between the two flags. Thanks! Askari Mark (Talk) 19:40, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish flag with and without Coat of Arms 

message: See  List of countries by population and even the "Sortable version of flagicon" section above. Columns after the flag icon are showing the table format characters, like :
|| 6,671,226,000|| July 1, 2007|| 100%||style="font-size: 75%"| UN estimate 
William Avery (talk) 17:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: User:East718 has added  to all(?) of the 893 country data templates, added a line break to each of them.  I am quickly trying to repair all this damage as quickly as I can.  Andrwsc (talk) 18:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm very sorry about this, and have worked with Andrwsc to repair the damage. Although this was in good faith, it is just another mistake in a long series for me recently, and I'm going to go back to my indefinite hiatus. east.718 at 20:54, December 12, 2007  —Preceding comment was added at 20:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tables containing flagicons seem to be broken 

message: :Template:Country data Yugoslavia links to Serbia for its tennis alias for some reason. Even though Yugoslavia Davis Cup team and Yugoslavia Fed Cup team both exist, the page is linking the tennis templates to the Serbian versions. Could somebody fix this? --Thewanderer (talk) 16:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: .  I think the intent behind the tennis alias in the template was because the two Yugoslavia pages are disambiguation pages, and ought to be avoided from internal links. – Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Country data Yugoslavia

message: Can somebody please update it with the new Iraq flag? I want to put 2008 for the year, but its not set up yet. Chaldean (talk) 16:51, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you be more specific?  You've only provided a redlink for context. – Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:15, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You took care of it already, thank you. Chaldean (talk) 05:51, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Country date Iraq