Talk:Velir

message: Velirs are believed to be descendants of Yadu http://maps.thefullwiki.org/ - today the descendants of Yadu are called Yadavas (also Ahirs, Konars, Idaiyar, Gowda, Gollas)
Not a single dynasty record(s) according to Travancore Dynasty Records & Kerala District Gazetteers  show any linkage between Velirs and Vellalars.  
According to   Travancore Dynasty Records & Kerala District Gazetteers Vel-Ay, Mal-Vel-Ay are Ay Kings belonging to Ayar Community.
According to  Pivot Politics: Changing Cultural Identities in Early State Formation Processes Paperback – 1994 by Martin Van Bakel Renee Hagestenijn Pieter Van De Velde, it states that Velirs are segmentary lineages of Yadavas (there is no mention of Vellalars or any linkage to Vellalars).
According to Neolithic Cattle-Keepers of South India: A Study of the Deccan Ashmounds. F. R. Allchin  Ayars and Velirs are Cattle-keepers who rose to the level of petty chieftains.
Pattinappalai clearly states that velir King Irunkovel belongs to Shepherd race.
If Velirs = Vellalars, why would someone describe the hierarchical structure Ventar - Velir - Vellalar separately? 
If Velirs = Vellalars,  thenn either the word Vellalar or Velir would have been omitted / because it would be redundant.
It is clear from the hierarchy structure VELIRS ARE NOT VELLALARS and vice-versa.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.155.19.47 (talk) 20:42, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Velirs

message: Rajkris, I went thru the book by Hockings (the only new reference you provided in the Vellalar article). The book is not available for viewing on google books, so doing a copy-paste for you (reproducing parts of page numbers you quoted).
Page 303:
 
Page 304:
Note that Paul Hockings does not provide the literary and archaeological evidences, which link "core Vellala subcastes" with velir. Hockings mentioned Vellalar subcastes, even described their living pattern, yet Hockings does not state which are "core Vellala subcastes". Hockings notes Vellalars are heterogeneous, with varying criteria defining them. Yet instead of providing actual evidence linking them to Velir, he goes on (instead), to refer to sangam literature, assuming Sangam period Velirs and later-day Vellalars are the same. To handle this and other modern historians who merely repeat the Vellalar-Velir connection, made by medieval / modern historians, am pasting content from some sources (not available on google books) so you can also read them.--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 04:57, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is your pov. This ref is a proper ref and I will add it. If you don't agree just report it. Note: I never stated that the whole nowadays vellalar come from the Velir.Rajkris (talk) 22:41, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Another ref: Proceedings of the Thirty-First International Congress of Human Sciences in Asia and North Africa, Tokyo-Kyoto, 31st August-7th September 1983, Volume 2, page 1015 , "Champakalakshmi: Related comments, I have an explanation for the reason why they became a landed community in Tamilnadu, if we go back to Sangam period, we have large number of Velir clans who were the large landowners. [Ramesh questioned the equation of Vellalas with Velirs, and Champakalakshmi affirmed their relation. Mahadevan supported Champakalakshmi quoting a Nakshinar's commnentry. Jha and Champakalakshmi agreed in recognizing the importance of muvendavelan in chola period".Rajkris (talk) 22:42, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Hockings

message: The content below has been taken from 3 sources all of which describe the same points.
* Social Scientist. v 15, no. 171-72 (Aug-Sept 1987) p. 73. , and 
* Indian History Congress, (1987). Proceedings - Indian History Congress , p.52. 
* Champakalakshmi,  Radha  (1996). Trade, ideology, and urbanization: South India 300 BC to AD 1300, p.31. Oxford University Press.
--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 05:03, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Velirs lesser chiefs under Vendor/Ventar (kings)

message: Content below is quoted from 2 source (both are by same author and quote the same sentences).
* Subrahmanian, N., (1996). Śaṅgam polity: the administration and social life of the Śaṅgam Tamils, p.300.
* Subrahmanian, N., (1993). Social and cultural history of Tamilnad, Volume 1, p.258.
--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 05:15, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Two types of Velalas

message: This is regarding Iravatham Mahadevan source used in the introductory sentence:
 
Iravatham Mahadevan is again used as a source for this sentence in the History section:
 Rajkris, as pointed out to you earlier on my talk page, the paper by Iravatham Mahadevan does not refer to the current Vellalar community. The terms Ventar-Velir-Velalar were used for land-owning classes or chieftains, that's all. Hope that is not too hard to understand even now. It is not correct to use Mahadevan's quote partially. Change the sentence to the full quote: "The Ventar-Velir-Velalar groups constituted the ruling and land-owning classes in the Tamil country since the beginning of recorded history and betray no trace whatever of an Indo-Aryan linguistic ancestry". If you wish to prove the current Vellalar community descended from the Velir, there is a lot more research you need to do, in order to provide appropriate citations. 
You have used the intro source (Mahadevan's paper) as a reference in history section again, to say they "might belong to Yadu Kshatriya clan". That is incorrect. Read the page you cited again (page 16). The term Kshatriya is not used. So delete the word "Kshatriya" and quote properly from the source. Read carefully what Mahadevan says (on page 16) says "..it is more plausible to assume that the Yadavas were the Aryanised descendants of an original non-Aryan people than to consider the Tamil Velir to have descended from the Indo-Aryan speaking Yadavas. As M. Raghavaiyangar (2004: 27), has pointed out vel, means ‘one who performs a sacrifice’ (namely a ‘priest’). The Agastya legend itself can be re-interpreted as non-Aryan and Dravidian even in origin and pertaining to the Indus Civilisation."</p>--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 01:30, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Mahadevan source

message: Sources:
1. Tamil Studies: Essays on the History of the Tamil People, Language, Religion, and Literature By Muttusvami Srinivasa Aiyangar
2. Heritage of the Tamils: Education and Vocation - Page 269 by Shanmuga Velayutham Subramanian, Ca. Vē Cuppiramaṇiyan̲, Vē. Irā Mātavan̲ - Education - 1986 - 506 pages
3. Racical Synthesis in Hindu Culture - Page 156.
4. The Early History of the Vellar Basin, with Special Reference to the ... - Page 21 by M. Arokiaswami - Vellalas - 1954 - 166 pages
5. Peoples of India - Page 29 by William Harlen Gilbert - Ethnology - 1944 - 86 pages
Irungkovel, Ma-Vel Ewi are all vellalars "The Tamils Eighteen Hundred Years Ago By V. Kanakasabhai".
Redirecting page to Vellalars.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mayank12 (talk • contribs) 17:06, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for arguing with citations but dont delete articles before you reach WP:Consensus, I will counter your arguments with time. No need to panic and get into a revert war. This article nees to saty because thsi the talk page wehere talk about keeping it or redirecting happnens, not in any persons user talk page. Thanks Taprobanus (talk) 14:57, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

text: I have now gone through number of references, that Velalar are Velir is just one point of view. You may not like i, I have cite that syas Velalas are actually slaves of Velir kings. Other views are that they are from Belgaum or Velkramam in Karnataka or Calukaya origin, claimed Yadava origin or simply the nmae is derived from Vel meaning to win over and just a generic name for petty cheifs. So I think this option that Velir=Velalar is just one opinion not the only opinion out there. I will with time now improve the Velir aticle with proper citations and I have no intensions of wasting my time with caste realated articlse as they deteriote as soon as they are written. Taprobanus (talk) 22:51, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Velirs are Vellalars

message: Hey,
Velirs are the chiefs of the Vellalars. 
i.e. Velirs were hierarchically above the Vellalars, but VELIRS themselves are not VELLALARS.
Velirs are Ayars (in other words Yadavas, descended from the mythical king Yadu)
The Tamil Sangam literature has the final say in all these matters - For e.g. IRUNKOVEL is a shepherd chief (in Tamil Pothuvar)
Please read Pattinappalai - line 281 clearly says the Irunkovel is a Shepherd Chief and IRUNKOVEL is not from VELLALAR caste.
Review the references below. 
*Vel-Pari, Ma-Vel-Ewi are all Vellalars.--->Tamils Eighteen Hundred Years Ago 
* "Vellalar of the Tamil Country (descendants of the Velir)"---->Journal of Tamil Studies By International Association of Tamil Research 
* Tamil Studies: Essays on the History of the Tamil People, Language, Religion, and Literature By Muttusvami Srinivasa Aiyangar 
* Heritage of the Tamils: Education and Vocation - Page 269 by Shanmuga Velayutham Subramanian, Ca. Vē Cuppiramaṇiyan̲, Vē. Irā Mātavan̲ - Education - 1986 - 506 pages 
* Racical Synthesis in Hindu Culture - Page 156. (Velir or Vellalar tribes)--->.
* The Early History of the Vellar Basin, with Special Reference to the ... - Page 21 by M. Arokiaswami
There are more references if you're not convinced. But I'm going with the academic scholars. Mayank12 (talk) 22:55, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for arguing with citations but dont delete articles before you reach WP:Consensus, I will counter your arguments with time. No need to panic and get into a revert war. This article nees to saty because thsi the talk page wehere talk about keeping it or redirecting happnens, not in any persons user talk page. Thanks Taprobanus (talk) 14:57, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Velirs are chiefs of Vellalars

message: "The Velir or Velala tribes"--->Studies in Tamil Literature and History
 By V. R. Ramachandra Dikshitar.
Mayank12 (talk) 22:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now gone through number of references, that Velalar are Velir is just one point of view. You may not like i, I have cite that syas Velalas are actually slaves of Velir kings. Other views are that they are from Belgaum or Velkramam in Karnataka or Calukaya origin, claimed Yadava origin or simply the nmae is derived from Vel meaning to win over and just a generic name for petty cheifs. So I think this option that Velir=Velalar is just one opinion not the only opinion out there. I will with time now improve the Velir aticle with proper citations and I have no intensions of wasting my time with caste realated articlse as they deteriote as soon as they are written. Taprobanus (talk) 22:51, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Another by Ramachandra Dikshitar

message: I've just removed three footnotes from the lead section. We do not include commentary in articles, period, and at least one of these amounts to synthesis/original research. If there is doubt about something then make that doubt explicit in the article (with sources), raise it here on the talk page or insert an inline note using the format . Another alternative is the  template, although I doubt that would be appropriate in the present situation. - Sitush (talk) 08:35, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Alright Sitush. Since you are involved now, I'd rather raise issues in the talk page instead of nowiki format. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 06:55, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misuse of footnotes 

message: The Journal of Tamil Studies is not often cited in papers hosted at JSTOR but I have no reason (yet!) to consider it unreliable. A lot of such journals are in fact unreliable - for example, the rubbish produced under various pseudo-official auspices in Odisha & much of what is written by the one-man band that calls itself the Tamil Arts Academy - but this one may be ok.
There are numerous references to it in our article but they are poor - no author name, no article title etc. Can anyone provide me with a copy of the article(s) that are cited as "International Institute of Tamil Studies, 1970. Journal of Tamil Studies, Volume 2", please? Pages include 185 & 220, so I think we need to see the entire range. - Sitush (talk) 08:44, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: What I can say is this article (from IITS, 1970, Journal of Tamil Studies) seem to have original contents and have not been reproduced by any other academical sources till now.Rajkris (talk) 22:11, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not sure that it matters whether or not the article itself has been cited. If it is published by a reliable peer-reviewed academic journal then that is sufficient. However, I would like to get a feel for the thing and, of course, ensure that its contents are not being taken out of context. - Sitush (talk) 13:17, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  My concern with this article is (if I don't make mistake) it is telling that Pandya kings are linked to the Maravar and/or Kallar which is the not the case. Maravar, Kallars served as soldiers the different tamil royal dynasties as well as the Vellalar gentry (see dircks book).Rajkris (talk) 22:47, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

text:  Hello Sitush, Yes this journal is not available at JSTOR. As for reliability, I too cannot say for or against it. In case you want to delete content from it, its fine by me. It is tough to see and get the entire range of page numbers using google books. At the most I can see a few lines in snippet view. Then when I type in the preceding few lines with double quotes in google books, it will show me the next few lines. That way I can get maximum of 3 paragraphs from a single page; which I copy and paste. However, I will try my best to get a physical copy of the book. Bests. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 06:51, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Journal of Tamil Studies 

message: This is my proposition for this part:
::Vēḷir became a title used by nowadays Veḷḷālar. Strong literary and archeological evidence links core Vellalar subcastes with the Velir chieftains.
Ref 9: page 149 : "Stein (1980) disputes Arokiaswami's claims that the Irukkuvels were Vellalars on the basis of later dominance of Kallars and Maravars in the whole area, but the congruence of Irukkuvel titles (velir, velar, muventavelar) with titles used by the Vellalars of the area today and the coincidence of the dates of Irukkuvel dominance with the time sequences implied in the many origin stories, copper plates and palm leaf manuscripts all of which attribute initial settlement and leadership in Konatu to Vellalars may suggest otherwise."
Ref 10: Encyclopedia of World Cultures page 304 : "There is fairly strong literary and archaeological evidence linking core Vellala subcastes with a group of chieftains called velir." 
Ref 11: Proceedings of the Thirty-First International Congress of Human Sciences in Asia and North Africa, Tokyo-Kyoto, 31st August-7th September 1983, Volume 2, page 1015 : "Champakalakshmi: Related comments, I have an explanation for the reason why they became a landed community in Tamilnadu, if we go back to Sangam period, we have large number of Velir clans who were the large landowners. [Ramesh questioned the equation of Vellalas with Velirs, and Champakalakshmi affirmed their relation. Mahadevan supported Champakalakshmi quoting a Nakshinar's commnentry. Jha and Champakalakshmi agreed in recognizing the importance of muvendavelan in chola period".
Rajkris (talk) 22:27, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Velir/Vellalar connection 

message: Try as I have, I can't see where the citations in this edit support the statement. Can we have quotes, please. - Sitush (talk) 14:08, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cite verification 

message: This is not a bulk edit. I'll elaborate on the changes. Velman2000 (talk) 19:59, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  New changes 

message: Some factors that need consideration.
1. Professor Dirks; p.149 The Hollow Crown; Ethnohistory of an Indian Kingdom. It's an extensive research
2. Pallavarayan Ula which refers to the Vellala Malava Princess (Malavas are Yadu Vamshi)
3. Periya Puranam referreing to Kalikamma as Eyar Kon or the Chief of Haiheya (Yadu Vamshi)
4. Jaffna Medieval literature mention Tirukoilur Ruler Vellala Perayiramudaiyan (Tirukoilur is a Velir Malayaman land)
5. Bhupalan - the Chandra Vamsa Chief of Konesar Kalvettu (Bhupala Gottiram is an acknowledged Vellala Gotram in Sri Lanka).
6. Kupaka Nadu Chief part of Jafffna invasion. Kupaka Nadu is the land of Ay Kingdom and Aykula Mahadevi mentioned as Vennir Vellala.
7. The Plough insignia is connected to Balarama in traditions (Prof. Nagaswamy has written on it). 
8. Narkudi Vellala traditions. There is a later inscription of Irungolan Pillai.
There are plenty more. Consensus on Velirs as Vellala in mainstream academia is stronger than opposition. The Ganga migration and Ganga Kulam description fits in with the origins in ancient Ganga Kingdoms. 
If you wish to change, then  leave room for these primary sources supported by academic works as well. Velman2000 (talk) 20:29, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some mainstream sources