Talk:Anti-Irish sentiment

message: Surely it is worth a mention about the indifference in british parliment to a famine in ireland that  was generally agreed to have been cause by irish stupidity regardless of the amount of food exported by ireland at the time?
There seems to be an evem more detailed article in german than in english87.232.42.93 10:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Government_response - This suggests that the "indifference" is a myth (like the "No Irish Need Apply" signs in America).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.195.117.86 (talk) 18:54, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: The Famine

message: Does anyone know what's up with the numbers indicating footnotes, but no footnotes to be found? Was this copied from another article? A google search didn't turn up a copyvio, but that's the only reason I can think of for this oddity.  ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 04:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure, but the article needs major work.  Also the term "Anti-Irishism" is a neologism.  Most such articles follow the form "Anti-X sentiment" unless there is another commonly accepted short form.  Thus I would recommend renaming it to "Anti-Irish sentiment".  --64.230.127.12 05:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interestingly enough, that's exactly what the article was originally called . No explanation was given for the renaming . I'm for returning the name to "Anti-Irish sentiment." As there's already a redirect at that name I think a simple consensus here on the talk page would be sufficient to move it back.  ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 07:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I was just wondering the very same thing, Kathryn.  The footnotes are not in order, and they link to nothing---not very helpful.  And, the anonymous user is correct, this article needs major intention, starting with the title. ---Charles 06:02, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Found the missing source(s): Irish American#Discrimination and prejudice.  Which makes this article largely redundant at the moment.  However, I think this article is worth salvaging and expanding, as there's no reason to limit it to the experiences of Irish-Americans.  ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 08:44, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Footnotes?

message: The cartoon on the right hand side of the page is problematic. Although a brief glance makes it appear to be some pretty nasty stereotyping of the Irish, more detailed research shows that it may, in fact, be a reflection on British society. 
First of all, we have to look at the events this cartoon was commenting on. We only know the month of publication, May 1882, which is the time of the Phoenix Park Murders, when British officials in Dublin were assassinated. It seems highly likely that the cartoon is a commentary on the brutality of those murders.
Next, we have to look at the depiction in the cartoon, (Frankenstein) and the quotation under it, (presumably from the book) reading: "The baneful and blood-stained Monster... yet was it not my Master to the very extent that it was my Creature? ... Had I not breathed into it my own sprit?..."
It seems to me that by depicting the Irishman as Frankenstein and explicitly quoting that Frankenstein's monstrosity reflected his creator, the cartoonist is saying that the behavior of the Irish republicans who committed the murders was a product of British involvement in Ireland. Because of the ambiguity in its meaning, I think the cartoon should be replaced by something more explicit. GabrielF 22:29, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've replaced the Frankenstein cartoon with something a little less ambiguous. GabrielF 23:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frankenstein cartoon 

message: Has anyone ever written about why a disproportionate amount of clerical abusers were of Irish ethnicity or Irish ancestry ? It has already been said that many abusers were gay, but how about being gay and Irish at the same time ? Are Irish clerics more susceptible to deviant, pedophile sexual behaviour than clerics of other ethnicities ? Why have comparatiely few Italian-American, Hispanic-American, African-American, Asian-American (etc) clerics been caught engaging in illicit or illegal sexual behaviour ? The ethnic and cultural element in this is interesting because it tends to indicate that some cultures are more prone to being sexually deviant than others. ADM (talk) 18:12, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As an Irish-American I find this comment to be very offensive with its overt anti-Irish, anti-Catholic implications. I would be willing to bet that you would not dare accuse other ethnicities or religions of being prone to sexual deviation, but I suppose to you the Irish are seen as fair game.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:44, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Er, regardless, what is the point of mentioning this? You ask "Has anyone ever written about why a disproportionate amount of clerical abusers were of Irish ethnicity or Irish ancestry ?" Who knows?  I doubt you're going to find someone to help you search for such a thing here; you'll get reactions like the one above. A Werewolf (talk) 06:08, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's anti-catholic, he/she mentions Italians afterall. 167.1.176.4 (talk) 11:49, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

text: But I think it's understood that the comments are decidedly anti-Irish.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:03, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

text: If you have reliable sources who discuss this topic, feel free to list them on the talk page for the sex abuse cases. But be aware of the guidelines on undue weight. I'm sceptical it would merit much more than a sentence or two, but again, sourced information is always welcome. Recognizance (talk) 18:34, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Instead of asking for reliable sources, why don't people ask ADM to stop trolling and then refuse to give him the time of day. Jack forbes (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly a disproportionate amount appear to be Irish, but who can say how many other abusers were not caught? Best to leave it to the readers' judgements.Red Hurley (talk) 14:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Jack Forbes' suggestion is the best course of action to take.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Catholic sex abuse cases

message: moved in line with other European groups. --rgpk (comment) 14:40, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 

message: And it is very inadequate overall in explaining historical British hatred and prejudice towards the Irish.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.79.192.61 (talk) 22:35, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Just as there is no explaining the historical anti-British racism that is still exposed today by many Irish. Mabuska (talk) 11:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not one mention of Cromwell? 

message: An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:21, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC 

message: I've reverted the last edit that removed the racism infobox.  Racism isn't simply confined to the discriminated party belonging to a scientifically defined "race".  Other points:
* Racism is not just focused on "race" - it includes discrimination on the grounds of nationality.  Article 21 of the European Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union prohibits "discrimination on any ground such as race, color, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, disability, age or sexual orientation and also discrimination on the grounds of nationality."
* The article Anti-Irish racism redirects to this article
* Other similar articles such as Anti-Slavic sentiment, Anti-Polish sentiment and Anti-Pakistan sentiment include the infobox
* One of the reverts suggested that the box does not belong on the basis that "Irish" is not a race.  But it's reported in the article Racism in the United Kingdom that until well into the 20th century, the Irish were viewed by the British establishment as a separate and degenerate race.  This argument that the Irish are not a race may be a true fact, but historically its evident that the Irish were considered a race.
* The article also deals with racism against Irish travellers.
--HighKing (talk) 15:57, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. I've edited the template to reflect the title of the article, rather than the "Anti-Irish racism" redirect. Although, on your first point, does it explicitly call that discrimination racism? — Jon C.ॐ 16:09, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool.  You're correct in that the EU doc doesn't use the word "racism", but instead refers to "discrimination".  But the United Nations use the definition of racial discrimination laid out in the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, adopted in 1966: "… any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.(Part 1 of Article 1 of the U.N. International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination)" --HighKing (talk) 17:07, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racism infobox 

message: There is a significant period of anti-Irish sentiment missing in Britain during The Troubles.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.125.228.37 (talk) 17:21, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  History missing 

message: I'm thinking we could add something about Cromwell's effect on Ireland, the slavery in the Caribbean, etc. Yes, yes, be bold and all. Just don't have the time to do it right now, but wanted to toss it out there if anyone is feeling inspired before I get to it. - CorbieV☊ 22:39, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cromwell 

message: The vast majority of universities in the US do not offer courses in the Irish language, yet many do offer courses in Scottish Gaelic and Welsh. I remember reading an article that said this was the cause of anti-Irish prejudice being present when many of these universities were established, and quite simply nothing has been done to correct it. Hence, I believe the article should include something about prejudice against the Irish within American academia. 198.45.210.180 (talk) 00:17, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-Irish prejudice in American academia 

message: Should there not be a section on Scientific Racism of the Irish, such as:
	 
with the prominent psychologist Hans Eysenck who wrote in his book Race, Intelligence, and Education (1971) that the Irish had a low intelligence similar to black people due to inferior genes and argued that "Only the most intelligent of the Irish migrated from Ireland"
 
Kinnell (1981) cited Eysenck´s assertion when he concluded in the British Medical Journal that the rise in mental and physical conditions in the British population was due to Irish genes from Irish migrants in relationships with `vulnerable` British citizens
Equal views of inferior genes within the Irish people was argued by Richard Lynn.
Additionally, views held by Francis Galton and W.R. Greg which Charles Darwin highlighted in his book Descent of Man (1871):
"A most important obstacle in civilised countries to an increase in the number of men of a superior class has been strongly urged by Mr. Greg and Mr. Galton, namely, the fact that the very poor and reckless, who are often degraded by vice, almost invariably marry early, whilst the careful and frugal, who are generally otherwise virtuous, marry late in life, so that they may be able to support themselves and their children in comfort. Those who marry early produce within a given period not only a greater number of generations, but, as 	shewn by Dr. Duncan, they produce many more children. The children, moreover, that are born by mothers during the prime of life are heavier and larger, and therefore probably more vigorous, than those born at other periods. Thus the reckless, degraded, and often vicious members of society, tend to increase at a quicker rate than the provident and generally virtuous members. Or as Mr. Greg puts the case: “The careless, squalid, unaspiring Irishman multiplies like rabbits: the frugal, foreseeing, self-respecting, ambitious Scot, stern in his morality, spiritual in his faith, sagacious and disciplined in his intelligence, passes his best years in struggle and in celibacy, marries late, and leaves few 	behind him. Given a land originally peopled by a thousand Saxons and a 	thousand Celts? and in a dozen generations five-sixths of the population would 	be Celts, but five-sixths of the property, of the power, of the intellect, would belong to the one-sixth of Saxons that remained. In the eternal ‘struggle for 	existence,’ it would be the inferior and less favoured race that had prevailed? and prevailed by virtue not of its good qualities but of its faults.“
Other Anti-Irish Sentiment in Scientific works include Language studies, such as Braj Kachru (1996) who excluded Irish English from his three concentric circles of Native English speaking countries by citing in his article World Englishes: Agony and Ecstasy  "...no reliable English-using populations are available, particularly for those who use English as their first language" (P 137-!38). This resulted in the Teachers Council of Thailand refusing to recognise Irish people as native English speakers and insisting on them to take an English exam if they planned to be employed as a teacher. 
While in legal articles such as that by Antoni Milian-Massana (2012) in his book Language Law and Legal Challenges in Medium-Sized Language Communities. A Comparative Perspective, whereby he argued that the Irish language should be removed as an official European Union language, since not many Irish people speak it and those that do don't understand it fluently and therefore it is not essential to protect, whereas Catalan is and should replace Irish since Catalan has more speakers (P153).
I really think there is more evidence of anti-Irish sentiment in scientific works and that these merit being mentioned here in a section of its own as these studies are often used to support Anti-Irish Sentiment.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8084:2580:2480:955D:F5FC:7354:7013 (talk) 22:01, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section on Scientific Racism of the Irish 

message: Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paddywhackery. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:35, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Paddywhackery]] - a deletion of interest (and possible merge candidate)  

message: Three lengthy paragraphs were added to this section on 14 January. Much of it, including nearly all of the first (longest) paragraph, is off-topic, being essentially an essay on 19th-century pseudoscientific theories of race in general. Some of it is quite unencyclopaedic in tone ("it was even hinted that the Irish might be the elusive missing link!") and most of it is normative rather than descriptive in tone. But my main problem is that the only "inline" citations appear at the end of the last paragraph. I put "inline" in quotes because it is unclear whether the refs are intended to support particular parts of the content, or all of it, or only the last sentence ("These were all arguments which conveniently supported British rule in Ireland"). The problem is made more acute by the fact that there are no page numbers in any of the four five citations, so that even if a reader were to have access to all four five books, they would not know where to look for the page or paragraph that supposedly supports whichever bit of the text it is supposed to be supporting. Also, while assuming good faith, we need to consider the possibility that some or all of this addition is a direct transcription from the books, and therefore copyvio. The writing style is surprisingly literary when compared with any of that editor's previous contributions. For all of these reasons I thought, and still think, that it is safer to revert that edit.  Scolaire (talk) 10:05, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Scolaire. The added text is mostly off-topic and not enyclopedic. Large parts are copied verbatim --plagiarized--from   -- published last year by a Routledge. Rjensen (talk) 11:08, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact the entire text (including the refs at the end) seems to have been lifted wholesale from this page on Victorianweb.org.  Scolaire (talk) 13:11, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

text: I would have no problem with the directly relevant parts of the Victorianweb.org page (those not going into detail about the science of phrenology itself) being summarised in the article, in a style consistent with the rest of the article and with Wikipedia generally, and citing the article that it's actually sourced from, rather than that article's author's sources. If you or somebody else were to be bold and do that, I would not revert you or them.  Scolaire (talk) 17:04, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

text: Actually, the first two (short) paragraphs of the 19th century  section already do summarise, and cite, that article.  Scolaire (talk) 17:09, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It is important to add some background. Rather than delete all that I added I would much rather it be edited, where necessary. I was in the process of doing some editing myself on what I added before it was deleted. What I added appears to show is a transition in the 19th century from a predominantly religious descrimination of the people of Ireland to that of racism backed up by "science". It is important as this discrimination of the people of Ireland could have played a big part in the death of over one million people from lack of food during the famine of the 1840s. AlwynJPie (talk) 17:52, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Adding copyrights violations will get you blocked Alwyn. I agree that the material is relevant and important, but unless you take the time to write it up in a way that doesnt violate other peoples copyrights it is not acceptable.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 17:55, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Manus. The trouble is when I try to alter text the meaning sometimes changes. I was hoping others could help edit it. AlwynJPie (talk) 18:11, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: You can suggest the text you would like to add here on the talkpage before inserting it.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 18:21, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok I will do that. I will initially copy and past the whole 19th century section and hopefully we can edit it together. AlwynJPie (talk) 19:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I have already provided links in this section to both your initial edit and the page you presumably got it from, so the text is easily accessed if somebody wants to add content based on it. You seem to be saying that you're not good at summarising and paraphrasing copyrighted text, so I think you should let it go unless and until that somebody undertakes to do the job.  Scolaire (talk) 21:25, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I must apologise. Until just now I was unaware that the text I added was already in a citation in the 19th century section to the very site that I copied and pasted to the same section. But I did make slight alterations. I changed some of the spellings and I added some links. If I had read all the citations I would have noticed that text and I wouldn't have added that same text. I think that what I added was important but I will now leave it to others to enhance this section. AlwynJPie (talk) 22:09, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  19th century 

message: The article doesn't mention it, but my recollection is that my own father opposed Kennedy on racist and religious grounds. The Catholic thing was probably more important to him, but I still think it should be included in the 20th century part of the article... Shanen (talk) 11:09, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the Reliable Sources (RS) I have seen  mention any anti-Irish factor--they all specify anti-Catholic factor. Rjensen (talk) 12:44, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-Irish sentiment in the 1960 election? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Remove this bit.
It actually shows the discrimination BY the Irish, thus confirming the stereotypes.
Also, it is much out of date: the opposite is true now. Zezen (talk) 04:17, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish Traveller discrimination 

message: Has Rebecca Fried's thesis gained any traction among scholars? Or was it just a media phenomenon?Jonathan f1 (talk) 21:05, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, as it showed how wrong Jensen was. Because a lot of historians really dismissed his view as fatuous and easily disproven. It wasn't realized until the time that Vox published the article that elicited Fried's response that people realized how the lie had taken root. Her paper was published by Oxford. A lot of people didn't take him seriously because all one had to do was go through old newspaper databases and old photographs to show he was wrong. She wrote her paper because she found, very easily, that he was wrong. Boo Boo (talk) 03:33, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  NINA signs 

message: It is against the law to discriminate based on race, so why is this page here on Irish Surnames. Citations and falseness not efficient on Wikipedia. Not credible.  I worked for US Treasury DOD prior this is wrong. 97.118.204.66 (talk) 00:55, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Because, for some reason, the Irish are considered a different race in Britain. Just as the Welsh and Scots. Human beings are always dividing themselves between "us" and "them." Due to this history of viewing the big four in Britin (i.e., English, Irish, Scots, and Welsh -- sorry, Cornish), IIRC, that is why EHRC took the case. I mean, by the people involved, it is the similar to the difference between Hutu and Tutsi, Basque and Catalan, Khmer and Vietnamese, Croat and Slovene, etc. I do not think we can erase Wikipedia articles or mentions of conflict between those groups. Boo Boo (talk) 14:09, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Also, see the "Racism infobox" section earlier on the Talk page. Boo Boo (talk) 14:17, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Human Rights Violation LAW broken. 

message: I removed the quote cited to Strabo's Geographica. A portion was removed by an editor, stating it was false. When I checked online to verify the editor's claim, I could not find any of the quote (even what was left in the article). The closest to any characterization of Ireland by Strabo was , so I removed the remains of that paragraph. Schazjmd (talk) 18:25, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strabo quote 

message: On January 8‎, user  80.233.51.228 (geo located in Dublin, Ireland)removed the‎ ‎Quotations section, and wrote "Why is this included? There's no reason for it. The antisemitism article doesn't include a list of quotes from Hitler and Nazis, so why does this contain anti-Irish incitement?"
I rolled it back and suggested discussion here before removal. So, should these be removed?Boo Boo (talk) 16:56, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racist quotes? 

message: — Assignment last updated by NavyBear314 (talk) 14:44, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Gender, Race and Computing

message: Hi, I am a student under the wiki education program, and I am adding a paragraph about the Anit Irish sentiment expressed in the laws from the British. I also added a short statement about the penal laws in Ireland with a wiki link to the article under the modern period section in a separate edit. Let me know how I can improve these additions and your thoughts.
Thanks! --Jdb004 (talk) 21:01, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Paragraph added on Pre-modern Era laws

message: This poorly written paragraph has been tagged as unsourced for two and a half years:
In Liverpool, England, where many Irish immigrants settled following the Great Famine, anti-Irish prejudice was widespread. The sheer numbers of people coming across the Irish sea and settling in the poorer districts of the city led to physical attacks and it became common practice for those with Irish accents or even Irish names to be barred from jobs, public houses and employment opportunities.
But there is evidently opposition to my removing it. My concern is twofold. First and most straightforwardly, the paragraph has no citations supporting it. It thus can be challenged and removed by anyone at any time. Second, the claim that the "sheer numbers" of migrants "led to physical attacks" is questionable wording for an encyclopedia, to say the least. It should be fairly straightforward to find a citation for this paragraph and rewrite it without invoking the idea that racial violence is a natural outcome of Darwinian competition over Lebensraum.2600:1700:3901:6A40:2D50:758A:1DE1:2E40 (talk) 04:58, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: References now added. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 08:55, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  sheer numbers 

message: I don't understand how the following recently-added text reflects the topic of the article.
This doesn't seem to be an example of  This seems to be an example of :Racial misrepresentation, not discrimination against the Irish. Schazjmd (talk) 13:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  21st century example