Talk:Asian values

message: Look, I am not a wikipedian, and I don't have an account (or an agenda, for that matter) but this is the most ridiculous article I have encountered on wikipedia in all the sleepless nights of procrastination I have spent on this site. I came upon this article after seeing it referred to in a NPOV statement in the Hero film article. Though I thought I caught a whiff of bullshit, I was in no way prepared for the blog entry that is this stinking heap of crud. As such, I nominate this article for deletion- if at all possible. If not, tell me how to make it possible. Do I need an account? Consensus? How would I go about getting consensus? This level of unsourced preachy nonsense is simply too much for me to just shrug off as the expected degredation of this website.
Allow me to highlight some particularly gross violations of academic tone. First of all, the opening paragraph; at least it is upfront in presenting itself as a leftist diatribe rather than an encyclopedic article. 
:"Asian values was a concept that came into vogue briefly in the 1990s" 
Did they? Source.
:"to justify authoritarian regimes in Asia," 
Is that why? Source.
:"predicated on the belief in the existence within Asian countries of a unique set of institutions and political ideologies which reflected the region's culture and history." 
Is it? Source.
:"Although there are many differences in Eastern and Western ideas, philosophy, etc., there is no single set of "Asian" values." 
Ah thank you sensei. Why then, may I ask, is there an article on them in Wikipedia? To teach people that they don't exist? Or that those who invoke them are wrong? Wikipedia isn't supposed to teach us what is right- it is supposed to document things of encyclopedic relevance.
:"The political phrase "Asian values" should not be confused with "traditional values."" 
Tricky though, because like this article, the latter is also a vague, unsourced critique of an ill-defined social standpoint.
Now for the definition section:
:"Because the proponents of the concept came from different cultural backgrounds," 
Do they? Who are these proponents? Source.
:"no single definition of the term exists, but typically "Asian values" encompasses some influences of Confucianism, in particular loyalty towards the family, corporation, and nation; the forgoing of personal freedom for the sake of society's stability and prosperity; the pursuit of academic and technological excellence; and work ethic and thrift." 
Does it? Source.
:"Proponents of "Asian values", who tend to support Asian-style authoritarian governments,[citation needed]" 
This is cute; 'tend'. Whoever wrote that wasn't even trying. 
:"claim they are more appropriate for the region than the liberal values and institutions of the West. A frequent criticism is that the idea of "Asian values" is most promoted by the elites who benefit from authoritarian rule, rather than the wider populace of their nation.[citation needed]" 
Oh, is that a frequent criticism? Let me guess, 'some' argue that point?
:"A brief list of such "Asian Values" includes:[citation needed]
:Predisposition towards single-party rule rather than political pluralism
:Preference for social harmony and consensus as opposed to confrontation and dissent
:Concern with socio-economic well-being instead of civil liberties and human rights
:Preference for the welfare and collective well-being of the community over individual rights
:Loyalty and respect towards all forms of authority including parents, teachers and government
:Collectivism and Communitarism over Individualism and Liberalism
:Authoritarian governments (which have certain responsibilities as well as privileges) as opposed to liberal democracy governments" 
What an awesome list you pulled out of your arse.
I could go on. The political significance section is better than the rest, and if gods of wikipedia deem that 'asian values' is a real and noteworthy topic (as opposed to the extant articles on say, confucianism), then this should probably be the extent of the article. 
This kind of crap has no place on wikipedia. Do something about it, or maybe- just maybe- I will. 60.242.88.203 (talk) 19:07, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Nominate for deletion

message: Hi, Mihnea, your version is: 
:Asian values was a concept popular in the 1990s, which argued for a unique set of Asian institutions and political ideologies, involving authoritarian government and free market capitalism (as opposed to the democratic welfare states of the West).
My version is:
:Asian values was a concept popular in the 1990s, which argued for a unique set of Asian institutions and political ideologies, involving authoritarian collectivism in the belief that it was superior to Western values of democracy and individualism.
I don't think that your version quite accurately describes the situation. While some Western European states might be more "welfare states" than the East Asian ones, in many ways, the East Asian states were more "welfare states" than the United States. Besides, all the states—Western European, American, and East Asian—all practiced free-market capitalism.
—Lowellian (talk) 22:24, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)
:Countries like Hong Kong, Singapore and even South Korea are arguably more capitalist than the United States. One of the core tenets of the pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong is the introduction of some welfare services, for example.
:Also, your own version suffers from the inclusion of terms like "collectivism" and "individualism", which, besides being ambiguous, might be incorrectly used here (many would argue that democracy, with its emphasis on power to the people, is much more "collectivist" than an authoritarian dictatorship, especially when that dictatorship involves one individual holding all the power).
:As a compromise, I propose using only "authoritarianism" and "democracy", with no additional qualifiers. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 13:22, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You want something non-biased? Sounds fine! To be truly NPOV, we should also include the less talked about, but quite common, Asian Values: Corruption, Cronyism, Authoritarianism, and in the case of Malaysia, Gerrymandering and Racism. --Commking 11:34, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Where exactly are you from, that racism is illegal? Highconclave 11:58, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro sentence

message: This article was obviously written by someone with pro-Western tendencies. The links in particular do not incoperate any references to pro-Asian value writers, but everything for the anti-Asian value ones. I suggest a major revamping of this article.
:You want something non-biased? Sounds fine! To be truly NPOV, we should also include the less talked about, but quite common, Asian Values: Corruption, Cronyism, Authoritarianism, and in the case of Malaysia, Gerrymandering and Racism. --Commking 11:34, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Where exactly are you from, that racism is illegal? Highconclave 11:58, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Congratulations for an article well biased!

message: So where does the Philippines stand when it comes to "asian values"? I am inclined to believe that it never really took hold in the country because of the development of western style democracy(you can say that it was heavilly manipulated by the USA) in the early 20th century. This should be added, but I'm not gonna do it since this is just speculation on my part and needs references. I just wanted to have the country at least mentioned since it is arguably an exceptional asian country when it comes to "asian value".--Chicbicyclist 07:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Philippines 

message: Can there be a synthesis between the two; western and asian systems of thought (or set of values)?
I would say so as a christian atleast; love your neigbour as you love yourself, it´s an unproven proposeall that there has to to be a clash here between the loyalness to society and the freedom of the individual (and the respect for others integrity) - a freedom with respect and with a sense of responsibility for the whole of society. But this is just empty words - without the ability to bring real love with to other persons (witch I belive drove surtain philosophers to the Asian thought) - but i personally believe that this pure love only can come from God - agape. This agape could however "contamine" us if we pursue a relationship with him.
Just some proverbs here to get you goin':
(Below are my own transelation from a Swedish bible version)
Proverbs (book in the Bible); chapter 28; vers 18:
Without vision (and revalation) the people perissh, delighted - is the one keeping the law. 
(it's from my memory of the english version of the verse)
[The law is - Gods commands thus both the right thing to do and the loveing thing to do. Respecting integrity - but being uncontent with how the world's caotic and the ofthen unloveing way of the people around us - and to forget the most important thing: DOING THE RIGHT THING YOURSELF (ask God for help - otherwise it atleast impossible for me to motivate myself - it's just not in me. (as said before: the problem is that we people needs gods help with doing the right thing; we just don't have the right amount of motivation; point is all seems to screw it up eventionally - thats why we need help.
     	
     
Proverbs (book in the Bible); chapter 28; vers 5
Ungodly men can't find out whats the right thing to do, whilst the one that seeks the Lord has insight in everything. 
My point with quoteing this is just "pin point that:
The One's that has thinked things out; knows all; created everything; ought to know what the right move is to make; an ought to be able to motivate you; as he has no limits being the source of everything's - being boundless as he seems to bee. (I've personally experienced that, try it out yourself - just asking for help couldn't hurt. So try it out.)
Where Is The Love?
by Black Eyed Peas
Album :Elephunk (2003)
People killin', people dyin'
Children hurt and you hear them cryin'
Can you practice what you preach
And would you turn the other cheek
Father, Father, Father help us
Send some guidance from above
'Cause people got me, got me questionin'
Where is the love (Love)
Where is the love (The love)
Where is the love (The love)
Where is the love
The love, the love
--Sweden 12:10, 09 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Question not metioned?

message: Any relation to Juche? --IanOsgood 22:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really. Juche is an entirely different concept. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs  03:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Juche? 

message: Article currently has unsourced assertions, weasel statements, and some editorializing. Wikipedia:Citing sources, Wikipedia:Weasel, Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style -- 201.51.252.63 19:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup needed 

message: I tried to clean up this article, but it's hopeless given its current structure. The introductory paragraph needs to clarify the larger concept of values common to Asia (especially east Asia), and then go on to describe how the concept has been used in a narrower context of poilitics in some Asian countries. The article needs a rewrite with references, by someone who can be objective. Another plus would be to describe these two meanings of "Asian values" and later have a separate "Criticism" section (rather than all the snide comments and sniping throughout the article). -Exucmember 20:11, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article needs a rewrite 

message: Who Are more creative, Asians or Westerners ?
Can Asians create new values ?
Any one out there ready to participate on writing on "Asian Values in Economy" rather than this essay on Politics ?
Thanks  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ken h to (talk • contribs) 14:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  So how about Asian Values in competing in this Flat world ? 

message: Would this also be able to justify child beating as a punishment, a concept foreign to westerners today? ("Foreign" example: It is illegal to punish a child by smacking in Australia, with a possible jail term or fine and/or counseling.) -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs  03:25, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I think we should avoid stuff like that because this is supposed to be about a political belief not a personal one. Another is example is how Westerners will often criticize their elders whenever they see fit whereas Asians usually tend to never do such a thing no matter what. I just don’t think that kind of stuff is relevant to this article. I mean, what’s next? Taking your shoes off in the house? BillyTFried (talk) 18:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Child beating 

message: More Eurocentric bullshit trying to undermine the ideals of other cultures. The reasoning behind said deletion.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.22.208.240 (talk) 18:40, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not an argument. 76.111.244.85 (talk) 03:08, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Negative aspects of Asian values have been deleted. 

message: I believe it is incorrect to use the word "Confucianism" in the definition of Asian values and that it should be removed. Firstly, Lee Kuan yew is believed to be the architect behind Asian values he's the first one to promote the idea and subsequently became popular in other parts of Asia like Malaysia and China. In Lee Kuan Yew's definition of Asian values he does not state anywhere anything about Confucianism. This source that I have included features his definition of Asian values, it is a quote directly said by him in the 1970s.  What does everyone else think? (110.149.151.169 (talk) 23:55, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for opening a discussion (per WP:BRD). First, "Lee Kuan yew is believed to be the architect behind Asian values" isn't really correct. The term Asian values has been used an an umbrella term for certain common political stances in East/South-East Asian countries. Lee was one of the prominent proponents of it (along with Mahathir), but not the only one. So it would be WP:UNDUE to solely follow his definition (and even then, the definition doesn't really reject Confucianism). I had a detailed look at the source you showed me - the first chapter is available for free here . This actually does show that Asian values was inspired by Confucianism (the state sponsored kind). Quoting the book, . If you look at the other sources in the article they mention Confucianism as an important influence on Asian values. In fact, the neutral term Asian values was preferred in Singapore (over the term Confucianism) because of its multiracial population and race relations. You can look at some of these highly cited works , , ,  for how Asian values is related to Confucianism. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 01:23, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: , thanks for that. Yes, I understand why Lee Kuan Yew would use a more neutral term like "Asian values" because Singapore is a multiethnic country and it would relate to Malays and Indians as well. After looking at the sources you provided, I think it would be fair to close this discussion. What do you think? (101.160.43.198 (talk) 01:58, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you so much! Yup, this can be closed then. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 02:06, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of the word Confucianism in definition of Asian values 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In earlier versions of the article, Lung Ying-tai, a social and political critic from Taiwan and Lee Teng-hui, a former President of Taiwan, were quoted for the criticism. However, the cited article "Is Culture Destiny? The Myths of Asia's Anti-Democratic Values" does not seem to support this claim. They might very well made such criticism, but I couldn't find a source to cite. So I removed their names for now, but if any of you can find a source, you are welcome to put their names back, with the new source, of course. 
Instead, I found that these opinions were expressed by Amartya Kumar Sen and Yu Ying-shih. So I put their names next to the comments instead and add new citations. On a second thought, I will also restore the original citation and put the author's name next to the comments as well.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuono20 (talk • contribs) 07:34, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible Miscitation