Talk:Children of Bodom/Archive 2

message: Earlier today, I blocked User:Leyasu and User:220.239.77.250 for 24 hours each for violating the three-revert rule, which states that you should not revert edits to a page more than three times in a day.  If anyone here breaks that rule again, please say so on the 3RR notice board.
I know about the situation with this article.  Unfortunately, I don't know much about this band, so I can't be of much help in resolving the content side of the issue.  But I do have some advice that will hopefully help resolve the issues here.  Everyone should be using talk pages, not edit summaries, for discussion.  Reverting generally doesn't accomplish anything, except for making people more stressed out.  I'd recommend only doing it in cases of clear vandalism.  Establish consensus, and then see to it that the consensus is what's posted on the page.  Citing sources and making sure that your writing is neutral and verifiable is the best way to go.  Use Wikipedia:Dispute resolution if necessary, but only after a lot of discussion on the talk page first - try to work everything out among yourselves, and keep the discussions as constructive as possible. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 05:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Three-revert rule violations 

message: Quick note for anyone editing this article: The source link at the bottom to the official COB biography is dead. I don't have time at the moment to fix it.
--Yuletide 21:03, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dead Links

message: According to , CoB has covered Klamydia's Latomeri in the Seokset EP, which contains songs performed by Klamydia, and covers of Klamydia's songs by some Finnish artists.Punainen Nörtti 12:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Covers

message: The band was founded in 1993 by guitarist Alexi "Wildchild" Laiho and drummer Jaska Raatikainen under the name of IneartheD. Both musicians had known each other since childhood and had shared an interest in heavy metal and especially death metal bands, such as Stone, Entombed and Obituary. Bassist Samuli Miettinen completed the initial line-up of the band. IneartheD recorded its first demo, titled Implosion of Heaven, during August of the same year.
Samuli was the main composer of the band's lyrics for the two years that he took part in IneartheD, but his family moved to the USA in late 1995, making it impossible for him to remain in the band. His last contribution to IneartheD were the lyrics of the songs from their second demo, Ubiquitous Absence of Remission. In this demo, keyboards were incorporated into the band's songs for the first time. In order to achieve this, both Alexi and Jaska played the keyboards separately, and subsequently mixed the recorded track with the other instruments. Alexi, who had previously only composed the melodies of the songs, assumed the role of the band's lyricist. 
At the time, Jaska played French horn in a local big band, and during a rehearsal he met Alexander Kuoppala, a trumpet player and also a proficient guitarist. Hence, shortly after the recording of their second demo, Alexander was invited to join IneartheD as a rhythm guitarist.
The bassist chosen to replace Samuli was Henkka "Blacksmith" Seppälä, whom Alexi and Jaska had previously met at school. Apart from playing the bass, Henkka also often doubles as the band's backing vocalist. Also, the band recruited a musician to specialize on keyboards, whose name was Jani Pirisjoki. Both musicians joined IneartheD in early 1996.
With this new line-up, IneartheD proceeded to record their third demo, entitled Shining. This demo did not impress record labels any more than the previous ones had, and none took interest in the band. Despite their efforts, their music got little exposure, with them managing only to play at local events. As a last resort, the band decided to record an independent, self-funded album. Considering that none of the musicians had much money to begin with, it was an audacious move.
Alexi wanted to make use of the keyboards more effectively this time, and Pirisjoki was not fit for the task anymore; thus, he was fired from the band (albeit not in a hostile manner) and a friend of Jaska's, a talented pianist called Janne "Warman" Wirman, assumed the role of keyboard player.
Janne was the component which was missing from IneartheD. His presence allowed the band to assume the style which would later characterise Children of Bodom. With him, the band successfully recorded their first album in the year of 1997 and received a professional deal from it. Their debut, Something Wild, was supposed to be released by a small Belgian label, but Sami Tenetz (from Thy Serpent) acquired a copy of their album through the hands of Alexander (both musicians worked for the same company at the time). Shortly after IneartheD signed this contract, Spinefarm Records' boss immediately became interested in signing them for a country-wide release. The latter deal was much more attractive to the band, since the Belgian label was offering them close to no help, to the point where they would have to distribute and sell the album themselves.
For the band to be able to sign with Spinefarm Records, they were forced to change their name, since the contract with the Belgian label had already been signed under the name of IneartheD. The answer to that problem came as the band members looked for good names in their local phone book. When they stumbled upon Lake Bodom, they realized it was a name with impact; one which had an interesting story behind it. A long list of possible names involving the word Bodom was then made, and they settled with Children of Bodom.
The story of the Lake Bodom murders goes as follows: on the night of June the 4th of 1960, three teenagers were murdered by means of repeated stabbing with a knife while on a camping trip to the lake. There was a lone survivor named Nils Gustafsson, who was initially believed to be an innocent witness who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. However, in early 2005, the Finnish National Bureau of Investigation reported that Gustafsson was a suspect. He was later arrested and tried. On October 7, 2005, Gustafsson was found not guilty. Henkka Seppälä commented, "The further the trial went on, the more it seemed that it's not possible to judge him. The prosecution side's evidence was too weak. The biggest surprise was the fact that he was even prosecuted in the first place. Most of the people wouldn't have guessed that kind of thing to happen in this matter. Now he is free, and innocent as he has always been (my trust towards our law institution is strong) and nothing has changed in the mystery of Lake Bodom. So we can go on and we don't have to change our name, like many people suggested to do if the case would have been solved!" 
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A message wasnt left as to what the proposal 'is', so i sectioned off the above so that people can either move their changes down, or, write in their proposals here. Ley Shade 11:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The above is my proposal for the "Early years" paragraph. There aren't many changes, just a few sentence reconstructions, etc. 220.239.77.250 13:33, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Classic is inheritantly POV. Initial means mostly the same things and is neautral. Better to keep the former. Ley Shade 07:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Try this. Children of Bodom's line up when (album) was relseased in(year). Just replace year and album with the correct information. Ley Shade 15:17, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Early years

message: I have read through this entire debate over genre classification, and while I agree with the folks on here who claim Children of Bodom has always been power metal, I don't think this debate has been eloquently thought out enough by either side. With that said, here are my reasons, and evidence to support my reasons, why the melodic death metal and the melodic black metal genre tags should be stricken from the main article. (NOTE: I refuse to use genre classification articles on Wikipedia because there are many holes throughout those as well)
First off, a little history in metal as it pertains to the genres classified here:
Speed metal vs. thrash metal: Speed metal and thrash metal have a history of being interchangeable since the rise in popularity of speedy metal in the early 80's, however, both terms actually describe two different sub-genres. The difference between the two genres  is largely based on another completely different genre of music; hardcore punk. Thrash metal started in the late 70's/early 80's with several different bands seemingly simultaneously combining the intricacies of metal with the rudimentary, quick, anti-establishment sound of hardcore punk, which is a more sped up, aggressive style of punk often using grittier vocal stylings, (i.e. Black Flag, Minor Threat, Bad Brains). Originators of the genre include Metallica, Exodus of the Bay Area scene, and Overkill (band) of the New York scene. Metallica and Exodus are considered metal bands that brought in influences of hardcore bands they enjoyed in their music (which was often heavily influenced by NWOBHM bands). Alternatively, Overkill (band) started off as a punk band known as The Lubricunts that eventually started playing punk covers sped with, with distortion added.
Alternatively, speed metal is a sub-genre that is played equally as fast as thrash, but does NOT have punk as a primary influence. Speed metal is primarily influenced by the NWOBHM bands of the late 70's, which was based on traditional rock influences. Speed metal, in its most basic definition, is simply traditional metal sped up (i.e. Agent Steel, Venom (band) early Blind Guardian and early Helloween)! The controversy surrounding these two genres is simple--many bands during the hayday of both of these genres often would orientate bits of both of these sub-genres, which made classifying a particularly difficult task. However, understanding the differences between these genres is integral to understand the origins and sounds of CoB.
Power metal: This sub-genre of metal is one that is often quite mis-understood. Many cite the flowery, epic movie soundtrack European bands as definitive acts to explain the genre, but in reality, modern power metal is very much a new thing. The origins of power metal go back to the early 80's with bands such as Helloween, Blind Guardian, Savatage, and Jag Panzer, whom all started off largely as speed metal acts that added melody and neo-classical influences epitomized by staccato guitar work. This is the fundamental origins of power metal, REGARDLESS of which region of the world you are referring to. Power metal started off as speed metal and still continues to be a primary influence to this day.
Death metal: A style of metal that evolved from thrash metal. Death metal, as meticulously researched in the book Choosing Death, came into fruitation alongside grindcore. While death metal evolved from thrash, grind evolved from hardcore with each having the simple goal of playing faster and heavier, often with violent imagery and lyrics in the early days. Death metal, capitalizing on the intense speed of thrash, further evolved the heaviness factor by downtuning the guitars, adding gutteral vocals, and creating riffs that were far more nihilstic sounding in nature, initially eliminating most forms of melody. Early purveyors of death metal include Death (band), Possessed (band)Morbid Angel and Mastery with many an influence coming from grindcore stalwarts Napalm Death and Extreme Noise Terror. Melody was eventually added to death metal in the early 90's, particularly in the Swedish scene (i.e. Dissection, At the Gates, Dark Tranquillity, Carcass (band), Sentenced) which, should be noted, were simply death metal acts that added melody on top of the harsh, gritty sound of the old school death metal sound. As time evolved, melodic death metal evolved into a post-death metal genre that many simply call "Gothenburg" because of the location many of the bands originated in (i.e. In Flames, Soilwork, Dark Tranquillity).
Black metal: I wont get into the history of black metal, but it follows a similar path of death metal, just quite a bit more serious and folk influenced (especially the second generation).
Conclusion based on the above as it pertains to CoB:
Children of Bodom, since its earliest inceptions, has revolved around staccato guitarwork, which most true melodic death metal bands do not play with. Children of Bodom has also based its soloing heavily on neo-classical guitarwork (mainly on their first few albums) with almost NO thrash or punk influences. And if the guitar riffage wasn't enough evidence, check out the melodies produced by the keyboards in almost every song of theirs...it is pure modern power metal to its very core. I challenge anyone to find a true melodic death metal band that uses power metal keys as frequently as CoB does.
Now, some may say that death metal influences have surfaced in their latest releases, but this is not even close to being true. At the very minimum, Are You Dead Yet? is still at its core a power metal album with strong influences from Machine Head-style post-thrash metal stylings and even some metalcore. However, every single album in CoB's catalog is completely and utterly based in power metal.
Some source reading:
Choosing Death - The Improbable History of Death Metal and Grindcore
Sound of the Beast: The Complete Headbanging History of Heavy Metal
Rockdetector: A-Z of Power Metal
So basically, the ONLY part of CoB music that could arguably be death metal is the gutteral vocals, which in itself is not even close enough to justify the band's inclusion as a melodic death metal band or a melodic black metal band. Therefore, in conclusion, I propose we eliminate the death metal and black metal classifications and stick purely with the power metal, unless someone can provide proper evidence that claims otherwise (and interviews by bandmembers should not count as evidence) Please articulate disagreement and support for this proposal. If no debate is ushered in, I see no reason to keep the genre classification as is.Supercodes 05:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to remove genre terms melodic death metal and melodic black metal 

message: ::I have to go with metal-archives with this one and say they are a speed/power metal band with death metal elements.  That's what they should be labeled as, in my opinion.  To read it click here or just do the same as the Cradle of Filth wiki and just label them metal cause they play all sorts of metal, just in their own unique way.  Moreso even in the article Alexi says he just wants to be coined "metal." -- Shatterzer0 22:27, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: My two cents on the whole genre thing

message: One user has hid behind the policy of not reverting other users, while reverting any edit that isnt their own. As such, from the article in its current state, no changes will not be made to the article until they have been discussed thoroughly here, an protests by other users shall be made, without prior discussion.
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I'd like to remind you that you are the one that reverted me when I first made changes to the article. As such, you're the one who defied the policy in the first place. Since then, I've reverted only to rectify the situation. What are your problems with the rest of the article? I know that you think some parts are POV. Go ahead and change them. Or, if you like, tell me which parts and I'll try to fix them. I'm not perfect. 
I'm happy to discuss changes before they are made if you are. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "anprotested by other users shall be made, without prior discussion". Could you please explain what you mean by this sentence? 220.239.77.250 05:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I get lost in thought a lot, so i have corrected my own typing mistakes. Apologies for the confusion that cause you, and if you read again it will be fine. Also note, that your violating policys as explained above. And im also trying to be friendly and teach you what is expected, mostly by following the guidelines from he Featured Article Nightwish, and from what admins have corrected me on before. Leyasu 06:57, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: They do affect content and point of view, and i think you dont realise that. However, the point of this is to propose changes in each section. Feel free to add more before the closing notes if needed. As i previously mentioned, i have asked Wesley to do a copyedit of the article, and we await his response. Leyasu 07:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverting 

message: If any partys involved wish to ignore this dispute resoloution for editing the article, a request for page protection will be made, as well as a RFC that will provide a thorough conensus based solely on Wikipedia policys. If this still fails, and users involved refuse to be civil, co-operative and to work with their fellow editors, then admins will unfortunatly have to be brought into mediate the argument themselfs, and their rulings can and will be final.
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I'm not sure about what you mean by that first sentence. Could you explain that as well? 220.239.77.250 05:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My mistake, i got lost in mid sentence again. Ive corrected this, so it should read properly. I am also going to message user WesleyDodds now, and he will perform a complete copyedit of the article given the chance to do so. Leyasu 07:00, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Failure To Adhere This Dispute Resoloution 

message: The proposed solutions above are in the interest of making progress with the article and stopping any more outraged edits, reverts and warring before it grows out of hand. Please read each carefully, comment in the appropriate section, and be mindful of other editors. The more co-operative and pleasant users are with each other, the faster the dispute will be resolved. Leyasu 19:46, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  End Comment 

message: I don't know if Are You Dead Yet? (AYDY) sounded any different to you guys, but i personally think that their style is changeing as they become more mainstream. I fear that within a few albums they will become like Avenged Sevenfold and become totally mainstream. Does anyone else agree with me that AYDY was a bit different from their past albums? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.98.225.114 (talk • contribs) .
:I agree totally that it was different. But I don't agree with you on the rest. I actually liked this album way more than all the others (and I assure you that my tastes are not usually mainstream, please believe me :P). I don't know what I liked more, maybe the melodies, the song structure that was maybe slighlty different, or maybe because it was more like power metal than their previous albums. But not mainstream ;) take care. IronChris  |  (talk) 21:58, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, AYDY is definitely markedly different from their previous recordings, which are all classic and nigh-genius. Pretty much the entire album is chug riffs and industrial arrangements. Though not entirely bad (Trashed, Lost & Strungout, If You Want Peace...), it definitely bears more than a passing resemblance to the mainstream releases of today. I think Alexi's just taking influence from different places like all the different albums, only this time he's taking them from all the wrong places. And the sad thing is he's trying to justify his actions by saying Slipknot's Subliminal Verses was one of the best metal releases ever (as if they were actually metal...), and saying that there's nothing wrong with selling out. It's sad how the typical slide from glory is happening to one of the greatest bands, and already this soon. How I pine for the days of In The Shadows... Durandal1717 02:39, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are You Dead Yet? 

message: I changed the name of "Covenant" to "The Kovenant", as it was linked to the EBM/Electro band. I also added "Ancient" to the list of bands Kimberly Goss has been in. JanderVK 03:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name Change and Add

message: PLease don't tell me that I'm the only person that thinks CoB are a melodic death metal/prog metal cross?  I fail to see any black metal in their music (unless you're including theme, but that really dosen't count, does it?). --711groove 16:07, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As you might have already noticed, there has been an ongoing and almost endless debate on the genre of this band, and I think that most would agree that the band was very black metal during Something Wild, and not just theme-wise, although I can't say it's very prevalent nowadays. Dying2live 19:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prog Undertones 

message: I'm removing the image stating they toured in Europe that time, its not valid or it's Expired or something, I dunno. Ace Fighter 00:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image removal