Talk:Abishabis

message: Just a question while reading through the article. I am aware his name is Abishabis, but in the "Legacy" section, it reads . This is something that shows up a few times, but mostly in the "Legacy" portion. Is it another romanization of his name? If such, I think it would probably be ideal to have the alternative romanization in the opening sentence (along the lines of "sometimes referred to as Abishabe") and perhaps correct the instances of his name being rendered as "Abishabe" for consistency's sake. If this is another scenario altogether that is understandable, but it is a bit confusing. Ornithoptera (talk) 02:53, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a misspelling of his name. I have corrected it in the article. Z1720 (talk) 02:57, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey! Seems like it happens twice in "Early religious activity" since you overlooked that. Wishing the best! Ornithoptera (talk) 02:58, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling 

message: This is certainly a very interesting article but could benefit from some improvements – it is excessively tight-lipped about many things. It piqued my curiosity with the statement that the followers of Abishabis stopped providing furs to the Europeans. However, I could not find the explanation I came for in the article. Would it have been because there was an undercurrent of self-assertion vis-a-vis the Europeans in the movement (as suggested by the departure from previous beliefs as well as incorporation of Christian traits), was it simply because they started dedicating more time to religious activities (as suggested by the starving incidents), or were there explicit teachings that led to this (which would be most interesting to know)? The section on "Religious views" is questionably placed at one remove from the section on "Religious activities" and could ideally (if possible) elaborate on how those beliefs were put into action - in particular, how they made the group act towards the Europeans or towards Cree communities which did not follow Abishabis. One can only infer from the events described in the "Arrest and death” section that a conflict was brewing, but the details elude the reader. It would also be good to know who was resident in Severn House at the time when Abishabis arrived there, especially that the separate article on Fort Severn does not cover this period.
A related issue is that the logical ordering of the account seems imperfect at times. The final portion of the "Early life and background" section says: "The Omushkego Cree relied upon guns to hunt animals, and the furs from these animals were traded to the HBC. In the years preceding Abishabis's religious pursuits, the group believed something was wrong with their hunting grounds, as they struggled to hunt caribou. James Hargrave, an officer with the HBC, wrote that there was nothing remarkable about Abishabis before the arrival of Methodist missionaries to the area." The article never elaborates on how the belief that "something was wrong with their hunting grounds" affected the emergence of Abishabis's religious movement, on whether the Cree managed to deal with this problem, and whether we know what the issue actually was. The last sentence reads as completely disconnected from the rest - why is this statement important and what do we know about Abishabis before the arrival of the missionaries to contextualise Hargrave's assertion? Perhaps no information is available but it still makes for an odd remark. VampaVampa (talk) 17:21, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Impact of teachings on hunting 

message: As touched on by VampaVampa above, there is very little context or background given about how and why Abishabis's religious movement briefly flourished, why the Cree were in conflict with the HBC, and why Abishabis's movement was so forcefully undermined. The article tells the story mostly from the point of view of the Hudson Bay Company, which of course doesn't include the real story of the Omushkego Cree or Abishabis. Here is some of the context:
Prior to Abishabis's religious movement, the Cree culture in the area of York Factory was completely collapsing. The area was at the brink of economic ruin and famine. This was due to a variety of factors including the spread of European diseases, rampant alcoholism (the HBC often payed for furs with alcohol and tobacco), overhunting (hunting with guns was unknown prior to the arrival of HBC, but quickly became the norm), and basically 100 years of unbridled exploitation. Because of this cultural and economic collapse, many of the Cree that remained were deciding to leave the area and there was a gradual depopulation. This was a crisis for the Hudson Bay Company as they were dependent on the Cree for the fur trade (and meat). George Simpson, the colonial governor of the HBC decided to bring in Methodist missionaries. He believed that the missionaries would help control the Cree, reduce alcoholism, and rebuild a sense of community (albeit based on Christianity rather than Cree culture). The Cree, decimated by disease, alcoholism, and poverty, took readily to the Methodists' message of hope and salvation (coupled with gifts). This is where Abishabis enters the picture. Abishabis embraces Christianity, but combines it with traditional Cree religion. He becomes a preacher and builds up a following among the locals. As part of his preaching, he starts telling the Cree that they are being exploited and corrupted. He tells them that they have abused the riches that the Creator has provided for them and that they should only kill what they need for themselves: "Kill only that life which you have need of for the spirit of a greater life in you. Respect the land, fat with fur and food, for it is a gift from the Great Spirit. Do not sell this gift to a Trader's Greed for country victuals!"
Of course the HBC quickly realizes that Abishabis is a threat to their business and James Hargrave vows to "crush" his religious movement. He recruits the help of James Evans, the head Methodist missionary in a plan to denounce Abishabis and turn the community against him (which Evans readily agrees to since he sees Abishabis as a threat to his religious authority). The Methodists begin denouncing Abishabis as a messenger of Satan and falsely claiming that Abishabis believes that he is Jesus. Hargrave, Barnston and others start telling people that he is brainwashing his followers to stop eating, when in reality the Cree were in the midst of a famine and many were starving to death while the HBC bought up whatever supplies of meat were available. Many Cree were literally begging for food and supplies at the gates of the HBC, but Simpson insisted that the company not aid them: "However anxious to succour these unfortunate people, we cannot provide them with cloth, blankets and other articles of comfort and luxury unless they be in a condition to pay for them."
When the family of Abishabis's father-in-law were murdered, Hargrave immediately blames Abishabis (although there is no evidence tying him to the murder other than hearsay and rumor). Hargrave orders John Cromartie to incite the community to lynch Abishabis. Although Cromartie disobeys and has Abishabis arrested instead, Abishabis is taken from his cell and murdered with an axe before any trial is possible. Since law enforcement in the territory is completely controlled by the HBC, no real effort is made to find or identify the perpetrators.
I hope this sheds some light on the fuller story. Nosferattus (talk) 07:00, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  No context given