Talk:Milwaukee School of Engineering/Archive 1 (through 4 October 2006)

message: I think most of the issues on this page have been resolved and recommend that they be moved to archive to make this page cleaner for discussion of new issues.  Items that may deserve ongoing discussion and probably shouldn't be moved to archive are "Material from MSOE website" and the question regarding Brooks Stevens in "Cleanup". Edurant 23:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Move to Archive?

message: I am a little apalled by how Kent Peterson, the webmaster of msoe.edu, is obviously censoring this article with his clearly biased information.  This is an encyclopedia article, not a MSOE pamphlet, Kent.  It does not reflect well on MSOE if you have to come here to cover up people's opinions that "look bad".
:Hello.. I am the one who initally reverted your edit (others have since done so) and am not Kent Peterson. Please note that Wikipedia is not the place for personal commentary and grandstanding. See: WP:NOT and WP:NPOV for an explanation. 72.131.44.247 02:47, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The personal commentary is unsourced, unproven, and POV driven. I also have no relationship with the school, other than living in the same city as it. It appears to me that your repeated revert is biased. Regards. 72.131.44.247 03:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

text: As I have stated elsewhere... please source all of this "criticism." 72.131.44.247 03:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kent Peterson Censorship 

message: There should be more information on Patrick Kennedy.  He is not 1 of the 6 currently in Wikipedia Patrick Kennedy (disambiguation).  There should also be more information on Daniel Seemiller.  User:Edurant 
There are many, many more famous alumni who have, especially, had founding or other instrumental roles in various well known companies in Wisconsin and across the country.  KentP, I bet you could name several -- and, perhaps we should ask Jackie in the alumni office -- she could probably name 10 good choices for this category without needing to pause to think.  User:Edurant 
PaddyM, I noticed you removed 2 famous alumni on 18-Sept-2006 from the list (Patrick Kennedy and Daniel Seemiller).  I respectfully disagree with your "nn" assertion.  These were thoughtfully added in good faith based on my observations that many folks outside of the MSOE community are familiar with the achievements of these alumni; is there a more formal published guideline regarding this that I should refer to?  Also, you removed degree and graduation year information from other famous alumni.  Could you explain why you removed this information from the article?  It is common practice at every educational instutition I have been involved with to include at least the class year when discussing alumni in publications.  I am relatively new to Wikipedia editing and will gladly accept any information related to these items.  User:Edurant 
Yeah PaddyM, that was a bad edit.  Those people belong on the famous alumni list.
:Out of the two of them, only Daniel Seemiller even comes close to being notable at the institution, and only for his founding of the Ingenium.  However, I can find no reference for that fact anywhere on the MSOE website.  As far as Patrick Kennedy, google shows no hits for him except for the small article on the MSOE website and the wikipedia article.  Not too convincing.  Please see WP:BIO or WP:NN for more information regarding notability.  As far as the graduation year and degree, I really don't care, but I was cleaning the article up.  That being said, why don't you have a year/degree for Seemiller? Cheers, PaddyM 00:00, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That reasoning seems valid to me, PaddyM.  Using those criteria, I feel that the 2 you removed are marginal and I won't argue for their continued inclusion.  I don't know what year Daniel Seemiller graduated; it would have been roughly 1982 -- too many facts to find, too little time.  User:Edurant 00:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For the time-being, I removed nn alumni, except for James I. Finley, until we can find a little more information.  I can see Seemiller going back in, but is there any more info on him before we put him on the page?  I'm just not convinced that anyone outside of MSOE knows Kennedy or Diercks.  If they have some particularly outstanding achievement, then by all means, but right now I'm not finding them notable on google.  I'm sure there have to be plenty of alumni in high-ranking positions, but just being vp/ceo of companies doesn't necessarily make them notable.  Lets find a concensus on this, too.  Cheers, PaddyM 18:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Famous alumni? 

message: I added a clean-up tag to this page.  There are too many lists, the page has too much information directly from the MSOE website and the content of various sections is unsourced and non-notable.  I'm not getting into an edit-war over how famous certain people are or are not.  Cheers, PaddyM 21:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed.. I'll also add that there are NPOV issues with this article which need to be resolved. Regards. 72.131.44.247 22:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have supported some of the things added to the critcism section and feel some of the truely have a place here.  However I am imbarresed by the latest actions of the few who are engaging in a personal attack war on people do a honest effort to edit the page to have it be it's best.  The attacks on a personal level to PaddyM as well as 72.131.44.247 are way out of line and really bring this page to low.TheRanger 02:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm trying to get the page to a point where the clean-up tag can be removed.  I tried to address the largest concerns, especially that the article was approaching a list of lists.  I feel the Criticisms section shows a strong NPOV and would like to see it cleaned up.  I won't argue with the person who removed "challenging" as describing the curriculum, but certainly we should give the same respect to neutrality regardless of the direction of bias.  Best Regards, User:Edurant 00:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think most of these issues have been resolved.  Would someone like to remove the tag, or state what they think still needs to be done to justify its removal? Edurant 03:44, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good to me.  Great job for all involved (especially since I really didn't do anything).  Consider it removed.  Cheers, PaddyM 04:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Works for me.. on a side note, can anyone find a source for the statement that Brooks Stevens designed the logo? The link given doesn't seem to have the information, but gives the appearance of being a reference. 72.131.44.247 04:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup