Talk:Child sexual abuse/Archive 3

message: I added statements and sources from two new academic works (from my university's Women's Studies collection) on female sex abuse of children.   Please review these sources and discuss any changes before reverts.  They raise some shocking issues that are rarely researched in the US and that need to be shown as part of the child sexual abuse picture somehow.  128.111.95.237 04:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: female assailants

message: I got a question and it might seem to fit here. I just found out that my mom's brother's wife, "played" with her son's penis when changing him when he was little, my mom and grandma saw this countless times and were outraged. Does that count as a molest? Also, I do think it is possible that I was molested myself by her during a sleep over with my cousens (do to sleeping, I remmeber having my shorts on and when I woke up, I was only in my underwear). Should I turn her in, is she a risk to other people/childen? blackbox13000
:Wikipedia doesn't give legal advice, but my personal opinion is that she should be locked up. For better results you should ask the question at the humanities reference desk.--Ķĩřβȳ♥♥♥ŤįɱéØ 09:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I responded to your question at Talk:Blackbox13000; your talk page.  I think that yes, that does sound like child molestation.  It does count.  I would recommend that you speak with the Child Protective Services agency in your area.  Please reply to User_talk:Joie de Vivre, my talk page if you would like to talk or if you need help identifying the child protection resources in your area.  Joie de Vivre 21:49, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Question about child sexual abuse

message: I created a new topic False allegation of child sexual abuse.  The article is still young and needs sources and non-US points of view.  Will Beback recommended merging it with Child sexual abuse.  Personally, I think it's big enough to stand on its own but would like some additional feedback.  Dfpc 23:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I propose a merge. The topics are basically the same. We already have separate articles on specific instances of false allegations, including McMartin Preschool trial and Day care sexual abuse hysteria. There isn't much to say about the phenomenon of false allegations, and the couple of sourceable paragraphs that can be produced would be best kept here. -Will Beback · † · 18:57, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool, SqueakBox 18:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I created False allegation of child sexual abuse. I would rather merge it into a general article on false allegations of criminal behavior, with "See also" links in all related articles.  Unfortunately, I don't know of a general "false allegations" article.  Anyone know any experts on false allegations involved in this discussion? Dfpc 18:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Miscarriage of justice may be what you want, SqueakBox 18:49, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  That's close but it focuses on wrongful convictions, not taking into account the harm done by a false allegation.  If the article must be merged, neither MoJ and CSA are a perfect fit.  Given that, I'd prefer to not merge at this time.  I posted on Talk:Miscarriage of justice and linked back here.  Hopefully people will see it and reply.  The more opinions we get the better decision will result. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dfpc (talk • contribs) 21:27, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

text: the fact that it's "sketchy" is all the more reason to merge. Child sexual abuse is also political, and the two are inextricably linked. -Will Beback · † · 06:04, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge False allegation of child sexual abuse into this? 

message: In the 20:47, 2 May 2007 edit, RalphLender tagged the statement Some states have special rules when the two parties are close in age as unsourced.  The very next sentence includes Iowa complete with a citation.  Before I look up the laws in every state, how many state statutes are sufficient before this can be de-tagged?  Barring a single source saying "several states have close in age exception," I think 2 more examples with citations should suffice.  Comments?  Dfpc 21:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There must be some source to support the statement...maybe try a google search on the "some states..." and see if you get a citation.  I'd suggest keeping it specific...if there are two states, just state that...or leave it as is and let others add...If there are two examples, then saying two states would be accurate...DPetersontalk 22:00, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nevermind, I found an ABC News quotation saying most states have Romeo and Juliet laws. Dfpc 22:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good citation/source...thank you. DPetersontalk 00:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many examples are needed for "some states" in close-in-age exception statement? 

message: I reverted to the version without the two unsourced statements.  If there are citations to support the statements, please add those. Otherwise, the statements are conclusions and "original research" or opinions...neither of which have a place here. RalphLendertalk 13:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ... Voice of Britain 13:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop deleting the material in this section.  What is present is referenced and meets the wiki standard of being verifiable.  RalphLendertalk 15:39, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Effects on Children 

message: I have nothing against any properly sourced information added, but I do have problems with information that isn't. This area is a political minfield so we should have sources of the highest quality that also easily can be checked. This is done by citing peer reviewed sources and writing proper references. All in best intentions. Voice of Britain 19:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia standards only require that a source be verifiable RalphLendertalk 20:43, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: These are not unless they clearly point to the original research, which I beleive it doesn't. If it do then point us there directly instead. Voice of Britain 20:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The meaning of "verifiable" is that another user can follw the citation and verify that our summary of the material is correct. It does not mean that we have to be able to reproduce the research in the the cited reference. -Will Beback · † · 20:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see, so that's the way you wanto play. At this point i can do one of two things: I can accept the challenge and start unserious edits, adding whatever sources i can google, or I can withdraw and accept that the quality of the article will remain low. I choose to do the latter, congratulations, you win, and all according to the rules. Voice of Britain 20:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are several kinds of sources:  Primary sources, reliable secondary sources, questionable/unreliable secondary sources, false sources, and probably other categories.  Articles from CNN and other reputable news outlets are mostly primary or reliable secondary sources and are fair game for Wikipedia.  Blogs run a high risk of being questionable or outright false and are generally not acceptable, although there are of course exceptions.  Parody web sites are examples of false sources.  Of course, primary sources, such as academic papers publishing original research, or eyewitness testimony of an event, are the gold standard.  See WP:REF, WP:RS, and WP:V for more on this.  From WP:V: In general, sources of questionable reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no fact-checking facilities or editorial oversight are considered unreliable and should not be used except in limited circumstances. Dfpc 21:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why aim for less than gold standard? Is this some school project we just wanto get done so we can go home and watch tv? If we don't strive for rising above the mediocre, then we should just quit since there are many other webpages who already provide the information you can find here. Voice of Britain 21:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For the purposes of Wikipedia, academic papers are considered secondary sources. Primary sources are not the "gold standard" and in fact their use is discouraged or outright banned. -Will Beback · † · 21:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stick to your area of expertise and leave serious editing here for the people who has actual knowledge of the subject. This is by far the most efficient way of doing things by any standard. Voice of Britain 21:42, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We edit according to Wikipedia guidelines and policies.  See No original research: Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources. -Will Beback · † · 21:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is like some Orwellian nightmare. I use primary sources by the normal definition of the word. Should be perfectly clear? You use secondary sources by the normal definition of the word, also clear? Why is this a problem? It is a problem because the information is very dubious and with secondary sources which doesn'r point to the primary it is basically impossible to verify the claims (again be the normal definition of the words). I don't interfer with your areas of expertise, and I would appreciate if you returned the favour here. Voice of Britain 21:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no areas of expertise and I interfere in all aspects of Wikipedia. If you'd like to have me banned please go ahead and make a proposal. Until I'm banned I'll continue to promote adherence to Wikipedia policies and guidelines. I'm sorry if that's inconvenient. As for your points above, if a TIME reporter says that he's spoken with witnesses who recount a set of events then we accept the report's article as a secondary source. We don't require access to the reporters' notebooks, tape recordings, and other primary sources. -Will Beback · † · 22:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you aware that you are editing a part of an article which deals with the finer parts of the research of what effects trauma may have on certain parts of the brain? Are you qualified in this area? Do you have any expertise at all on this subject? What is the deal here? Tell me cause I really don't get what you are trying to do here. Voice of Britain 22:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not aware of any editors on Wikipedia having expertise in the field of child sexual abuse. If you'd like to identify yourself by name and credentials then we might accept your expertise. Until then let's just focus on the edits, not the editors. -Will Beback · † · 22:25, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do focus on the edits and I do have issues with them. Especially the sources. If you cannot provide sources that allows me to verify the claims then they will be removed. I couldn't care less about claimed expertise, what I care about is expertise showing in edits, and I see none at this point. Basic understanding of research methodology and the area at hand is what I wanto see. Voice of Britain 22:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: Whoever keeps deleting the material in this section is bordering on vandalism.  The section as I restored it is appropriately sourced with material that meets the wikipedia standard of being verifiable...please do not delete it. RalphLendertalk 15:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They do not meet the standards of wikipedia policy, which has been pointed out earlier. With best regards: Voice of Britain 10:46, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree with you on this.  What is your opinion that leads you to object? DPetersontalk 12:30, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are new studies which cast great doubts on the claims of damages on the limbic system, or more specifically, damages to the hippocampi in relation to exposure to trauma. Some of the studies may or may not be affected by the results of the new studies, so that is why I don't wanto just say "its wrong" or "its right", but rather look into the details and examine it throughoutly, which is not possible with the current citations since they lack clear direction to the primary sources (realspeak). Voice of Britain 12:40, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Well done, I added your source to the text. Voice of Britain 13:00, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Effects on Children section

message: :Draucker (1992) had previously argued that sexual abuse against both boys and girls had similar effects, and that "initiation" was part of the myth that males are always the initiators of sex and cannot be abused. 
:Crawford (1997) asserts that our socially repressed view of female and maternal sexuality conceals both the reality of female sexual pathologies and the damage done by female sexual abuse to children.
:Denov (2004) notes that the topic of female sex offending is one that is barely "beginning" to be studied and is a phenomenon that causes surprise, shock and utter revulsion even among counseling professionals.
In my opinion, these are surely interesting but not quite sharp enough to be in the effects section. They seem to belong elsewhere. Voice of Britain 10:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lifted out some more

message: Please do not delete other's material...Better to Assume good faith and discuss 'proposed' changes here first and build consensus.  I note that you have a long history of contentious editing and have been blocked before.  Try to keep a cool head.  If you do continue to merely delete material that is sourced (verifiable per wiki) you may find yourself blocked again.  Please try to work to build consensus here. DPetersontalk 12:57, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Poorly sourced material should be deleted is a policy here on wikipedia. I have lifted out the text so anyone who wanto keep it can in good time add proper sources. This is standard practice. Voice of Britain 13:01, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia requires only that sources be verifiable.  the material I've added has verifiable citations to support the statements.  If you continue to edit in this contentious manner, I will suggest other action be taken.  Consider using a poll or another dispute resolution method to solve content disputes.  Randomly deleting and changing other's material is not productive nor is creating an edit war.  Please use dispute resolution processes to build consensus. DPetersontalk 13:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just add proper sources and there will be no problem. Voice of Britain 13:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He did. RalphLendertalk 14:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Some editors seem to be creating arbitrary standards and deleting sourced material which doesn't meet them. The editing on tihs and related articles ahs been extremely tendentious recently, despite calls for more collegiality and civility. If this pattern continues a user RfC would certainly be appropriate. -Will Beback · † · 18:27, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think greater community involvement would be a good thing, SqueakBox 18:58, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Voice of Britain has violated the WP:3RR, again.  What are our options here?  I do see the filing of a complaint about this and wonder what else can be done to stop destructive editing? DPetersontalk 21:19, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Incorrect, I have not reverted the same text 4 times. Voice of Britain 21:28, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, you have and have been 'BLOCKED' for violating the [WP:3RR] rule. See your talk page or  or the original filing. Please stop this behavior. This is at least the second time you have been blocked for such behavior. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Voice_of_Britain] DPetersontalk 03:08, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Comment True, but my version is even more well sourced so its a weak point. Voice of Britain 21:35, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You leave out very important information...furthermore some of the material you say is "current" is quite old and not necessarily from reliable sources (peer reviewed pubs).  Nor is your version "even more well sourced," since others disagree with you. DPetersontalk 03:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I appreciate the thought, but every article in Wikipedia is subject to revision. There's no point in putting up a notice about it. If you want to highlight the dispute, we have some standard editing tags, like  , ,  etc. More important than notices are efforts to get consensus. -Will Beback · † · 18:14, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. RalphLendertalk 19:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dispute resolution is the path to go down, IMO, perhaps leading to a situation where the arbcom can comment on this whole issue of paedophile activists not going for NPOV but to promote their views, SqueakBox 21:25, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There need not be any conflict at all if people used proper sources, why is this so hard? Voice of Britain 21:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not quite so simple, sourcing is a requirement but wikipedia does not need to keep every sourced statement, SqueakBox 21:36, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently the definition of "proper sources" is very malleable. Much sourced material has been removed. -Will Beback · † · 21:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The first step is to make sure everything has a proper source. Once this is done you can start critically examine their correctness, if have proper weight and their coverage, biasing factors etc. The problem is that at this rate, we will never get there because people keep adding or defending poorly sourced material or removing properly sourced material. Some seem to see some kind of pedophilia conspiracy here and feel the urge to "defend" the article. The problem is that there is no such conspiracy and that such behavior creates endless conflicts. Trust me, add any material you like, whether it support pedophilia or not and I will not complain as long as it is factually correct and well sourced. All I ask is that you do the same. Voice of Britain 21:46, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I think SqueakBox is correct here and it may be best to follow that path.  There does seem to be some issue here with pedophilia activists on this, and other pages. AbCom will probably the the end step...but we can pursue other interim steps first. Unfortunately, I don't have high hopes as Voice of Britain has again been blocked for violating the WP:3RR rule  DPetersontalk 03:04, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Note to [[User:Voice of Britain]]

message: Rather then have an edit war regarding the disputed content, I propose editors comment on the following section to be continued as the section on the effects of child abuse, rather than the version Voice continues to revert to.  Please put your "vote" in the section below this.
====Version supported by RalphLender====
'Effects of sexual abuse on children'
Kendall-Tackett and others found that a wide range of psychological, emotional, physical, and social effects have been attributed to child sexual abuse, including anxiety, depression, poor self-esteem, somatic complains, complex post-traumatic stress disorder, emotional dysregulation, neurosis, post-traumatic stress disorder, and other more general dysfunctions such as sexualized behavior, school/learning problems, behavior problems and destructive behavior. Kendall-Tacket, K. A., Williams, L. M., & Finkelhor. D. (1993). Impact of Sexual Abuse on Children: A Review and Synthesis of Recent Empirical Studies. Psychological Bulletin, 1993, Vol. 113, No. 1, 164-180., Gauthier, L., Stollak, G., Messe, L., & Arnoff, J. (1996).  Recall of childhood neglect and physical abuse as differential predictors of current psychological functioning.  Child Abuse and Neglect 20, 549-559. Furthermore, children who have been sexually abused show measurable negative changes in brain functioning and development Teicher, M.H., Ito, Y., & Glod, C.A., 1996, “Neurophysiological mechanisms of stress response in children.” In C.R. Pfeffer, Ed., Severe stress and mental disturbances in children, pp. 59-84. Washington, D.C., American Psychiatric Press. 
It has been suggested that young children who are abused sexually by adult females may incur double traumatization due to the widespread denial of female-perpetrated child sexual abuse by non-abusing parents, professional caregivers and the general public. Crawford, (1997) Forbidden Femininity: Child Sexual Abuse and Female Sexuality Most men formerly involved in woman-boy sexual relations, however, evaluate their experience as positive upon reflection.S.R. Condy, Parameters of Heterosexual Molestation of Boys (Dissertation, Frenso: California School of Professional Psychology, 1985); S.R. Condy, D.I. Ternpler, R. Brown, and L. Veaco, 'Tarameters of Sexual Contact of Boys with Women," in Archives of Sexual Behavior 16/1987, pp. 379-395
Wakefield and Underwager (1991) note the difference between CSA experiences of males and females, where more males than females report the experience as neutral or positive, saying that "It may be that women perceive such experiences as sexual violation, while men perceive them as sexual initiation."  Rind et al. (1998)'s research suggests that this difference was present in 59 college studies on the issue, suggesting that males who claimed that their abuse was consensual were not significantly less well adjusted than the norm. Draucker (1992) had previously argued that sexual abuse against both boys and girls had similar effects, and that "initiation" was part of the myth that males are always the initiators of sex and cannot be abused. Crawford (1997) asserts that our socially repressed view of female and maternal sexuality conceals both the reality of female sexual pathologies and the damage done by female sexual abuse to children.  Denov (2004) notes that the topic of female sex offending is one that is barely "beginning" to be studied and is a phenomenon that causes surprise, shock and utter revulsion even among counseling professionals.
A variety of behavioral impairments caused by child sexual abuse (Complex post traumatic stress disorder) have been documented.Dozier, M., Stovall, K.C., & Albus, K. (1999) Attachment and Psychopathology in Adulthood.  In J. Cassidy & P. Shaver (Eds.).  Handbook of Attachment (pp. 497-519).  NY: Guilford Press Changes in brain development and functioning have also been documented. This could explain the problems sexual abuse victims have with regulation of mood and other limbic functions, especially as exhibited in borderline personality disorder. Other studies also indicate that the psychological trauma caused by sexual abuse can lead to temporal lobe epilepsy, damage to the cerebellar vermis, along with reduced size of the corpus callosum. Children who had suffered only sexual abuse showed somewhat greater damage than children who had suffered only non-sexual physical abuse.Malinosky-Rummell, R. & Hansen, D.J. (1993) Long term consequences of childhood physical abuse.  Psychological Bulletin 114, 68-69. However, the most dramatic effects were seen in those who had suffered both sexual and physical abuse. Male and female victims were similarly affected.  More recent studies indicate that sexual or physical abuse in children can lead to the overexcitation of an undeveloped limbic system . Twin studies have suggested that the variations may be explained by genetics. The theory that stress is causing brain damage is implausible accordig to Harvard Professor Richard McNally.McNally, R. (2003). Remembering Trauma. Harvard University Press, 2003. However, there is substantal evidence that traumatic stress causes notable changes in brain functioning and development Developing Mind, Daniel Siegel, Guilford Press, 1999 The Boy who was raised as a dog, Bruce Perry, Ph.D., MD. Furthermore, children who have been sexually abused show measurable negative changes in brain functioning and development.Teicher, M.H., Ito, Y., & Glod, C.A., 1996, “Neurophysiological mechanisms of stress response in children.” In C.R. Pfeffer, Ed., Severe stress and mental disturbances in children, pp. 59-84. Washington, D.C., American Psychiatric Press
====Version supported by Voice of Britain====
[This section added for convenience by Dfpc 15:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment True, but my version is even more well sourced so its a weak point. Voice of Britain 21:35, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You leave out very important information...furthermore some of the material you say is "current" is quite old and not necessarily from reliable sources (peer reviewed pubs).  Nor is your version "even more well sourced," since others disagree with you. DPetersontalk 03:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I appreciate the thought, but every article in Wikipedia is subject to revision. There's no point in putting up a notice about it. If you want to highlight the dispute, we have some standard editing tags, like  , ,  etc. More important than notices are efforts to get consensus. -Will Beback · † · 18:14, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. RalphLendertalk 19:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dispute resolution is the path to go down, IMO, perhaps leading to a situation where the arbcom can comment on this whole issue of paedophile activists not going for NPOV but to promote their views, SqueakBox 21:25, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There need not be any conflict at all if people used proper sources, why is this so hard? Voice of Britain 21:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not quite so simple, sourcing is a requirement but wikipedia does not need to keep every sourced statement, SqueakBox 21:36, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently the definition of "proper sources" is very malleable. Much sourced material has been removed. -Will Beback · † · 21:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The first step is to make sure everything has a proper source. Once this is done you can start critically examine their correctness, if have proper weight and their coverage, biasing factors etc. The problem is that at this rate, we will never get there because people keep adding or defending poorly sourced material or removing properly sourced material. Some seem to see some kind of pedophilia conspiracy here and feel the urge to "defend" the article. The problem is that there is no such conspiracy and that such behavior creates endless conflicts. Trust me, add any material you like, whether it support pedophilia or not and I will not complain as long as it is factually correct and well sourced. All I ask is that you do the same. Voice of Britain 21:46, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I think SqueakBox is correct here and it may be best to follow that path.  There does seem to be some issue here with pedophilia activists on this, and other pages. AbCom will probably the the end step...but we can pursue other interim steps first. Unfortunately, I don't have high hopes as Voice of Britain has again been blocked for violating the WP:3RR rule  DPetersontalk 03:04, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Poll on Effects of Child Abuse Section

message: [This section added for convenience by Dfpc 15:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Version supported by Voice of Britain

message: RESTORE THE Version supported by RalphLender:
#'Yes' It is well referenced and meets the wikipedia standard of having verifiable sources.  RalphLendertalk 14:41, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment True, but my version is even more well sourced so its a weak point. Voice of Britain 21:35, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You leave out very important information...furthermore some of the material you say is "current" is quite old and not necessarily from reliable sources (peer reviewed pubs).  Nor is your version "even more well sourced," since others disagree with you. DPetersontalk 03:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: VOTE/POLL

message: I added the following text to the Effect section:
This section is undergoing frequent revision by more than one editor. Additional information may be found in the article history and on the talk page or by returning later. May 5, 2007.  Please remove it a few days after the dispute is over, not before. Dfpc 15:42, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate the thought, but every article in Wikipedia is subject to revision. There's no point in putting up a notice about it. If you want to highlight the dispute, we have some standard editing tags, like  , ,  etc. More important than notices are efforts to get consensus. -Will Beback · † · 18:14, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. RalphLendertalk 19:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dispute resolution is the path to go down, IMO, perhaps leading to a situation where the arbcom can comment on this whole issue of paedophile activists not going for NPOV but to promote their views, SqueakBox 21:25, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There need not be any conflict at all if people used proper sources, why is this so hard? Voice of Britain 21:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not quite so simple, sourcing is a requirement but wikipedia does not need to keep every sourced statement, SqueakBox 21:36, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently the definition of "proper sources" is very malleable. Much sourced material has been removed. -Will Beback · † · 21:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The first step is to make sure everything has a proper source. Once this is done you can start critically examine their correctness, if have proper weight and their coverage, biasing factors etc. The problem is that at this rate, we will never get there because people keep adding or defending poorly sourced material or removing properly sourced material. Some seem to see some kind of pedophilia conspiracy here and feel the urge to "defend" the article. The problem is that there is no such conspiracy and that such behavior creates endless conflicts. Trust me, add any material you like, whether it support pedophilia or not and I will not complain as long as it is factually correct and well sourced. All I ask is that you do the same. Voice of Britain 21:46, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I think SqueakBox is correct here and it may be best to follow that path.  There does seem to be some issue here with pedophilia activists on this, and other pages. AbCom will probably the the end step...but we can pursue other interim steps first. Unfortunately, I don't have high hopes as Voice of Britain has again been blocked for violating the WP:3RR rule  DPetersontalk 03:04, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Added notice to Effects of Child Abuse Section

message: I have filed an RfC regarding Voice of Britain's conduct on this page.  Feel free to review this at [].  Note, that to be filed, it requires at least two editors to sign-off on it.  If you have comments, plese put those on the RfC page. I have also notified Voice on his talk page. DPetersontalk 13:22, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: '''RfC REGARDING [[USER:Voice of Britain]]'''

message: - Rind et al reviewed 59 STUDIES of thousands of college STUDENTS.
- If you want to discuss other aspect's of Gilbertson's finding, create another sentence. Your replacement does not convey the same information.
- I haven't read the sources for the other information you deleted, but I hope you have... -Jillium 23:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Re: "article does not state cause-effect." It says: "These data indicate that smaller hippocampi in PTSD represent a pre-existing, familial vulnerability factor rather than the neurotoxic product of trauma exposure per se." -Jillium 00:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It says: "These data indicate that smaller hippocampi in PTSD represent a pre-existing, familial vulnerability factor rather than the neurotoxic product of trauma exposure per se." Also, my version says "indicates," not "found." -Jillium 00:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: That sentence (and the rest of the study) clearly indicates that, instead of trauma causing "hippocampal atrophy," a reduced hippocampus predisposes to PTSD (whereas the other "cause-and-effect" theory would claim that PTSD indicates trauma which damages the hippocampus). -Jillium 00:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: to be more precise, your line reads: "study by Mark Gilbertson, however, indicates a different cause-and-effect,"  the article and study does not mention cause-and-effect this is your opinion.  What they found was "smaller hippocampi in PTSD..."  That is a factually accurate statement and is the one that should stay.  If you really feel very strongly about this rather and edit war, as others have suggested, wikipedia has content dispute resolution processes...you can call for an RfC or you could begin a poll.  If you'd like I can do start that and then we can see what other contributors think and the basis for their thinking.  SamDavidson 00:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They found a "smaller hippocampal volume predicts pathologic vulnerability to psychological trauma". The study was an investigation into cause-and-effect! "Recent human studies show smaller hippocampal volume in individuals with the stress-related psychiatric condition posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Does this represent the neurotoxic effect of trauma, or is smaller hippocampal volume a pre-existing condition that renders the brain more vulnerable to the development of pathological stress responses?" -Jillium 00:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cause effect or association?

message: Can we please address Kendall-Tackett's findings individually rather than citing it with different studies and juxtaposing their results unspecifically? -Jillium 19:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Kendall-Tackett

message: I've been doing other stuff, but what the heck is going on with this article? Don't answer that. For the time being I have restored the version of 17:02, 2 May 2007. I can say for certain that at least the first section (Effects of sexual abuse on children) has deteriorated markedly since then, particularly in giving WP:UNDUE weight to, ah, minority viewpoints. Some post-17:02, 2 May 2007 material may be OK and we can add it back in, but I think it's better to start from a secure baseline and go forward rather than trying to work our way back. Herostratus 20:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It repressents majority viewpoints in science, it includes the perhaps most cited literature review in the field for example. Do you have any evidence to support your statement? Your revert seems very dubious unless such evidence is brought forth. Voice of Britain 20:06, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Please cite which minority viewpoints are being given undue weight before indiscriminately reversing all the work that's been done on this article over the past few days. -Jillium 20:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: considering that about 50% have positive/neutral experiences ????  I don't think that holds for female victims.  Bear in mind that Rind's research has been the subject of expert critiques, and hanging your opinion solely on that paper and its references can be intellectually dangerous.  Unfortunately, politics means there isn't much after 1998 that will agree with Rind - any American scholar whose research leads him to agree with Rind will bury his results to protect his professional reputation.  Dfpc 20:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I could quote atleast 10 different sources to support similar figures, its not dependant on the rind study. The figures vary ofcourse, they are lower for females but higher for males and ofcourse, clinical research differes from nonclinical and so forth. But as I said, we should try to balance the article better and add more specifity in regards to methods, samples and so forth. (The Rind study may be controversial but it is still cited among top professionals in the field as an authorative source so if its good enough for them then it should be good enough for wikipedia.) Voice of Britain 21:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: If 60%-85% of people become symptomatic then that is what we should focus on, obviously, not on the 15%-40% who do not. The asymptomatic folks should be mentioned, but we shouldn't give the fact that the not everyone becomes symptomatic excessive weight. By anaology, some people survive illneses like the plague but we wouldn't use that fact to argue that the illnesses aren't really so bad. -Will Beback · † · 21:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not arguing anything. Would it better if sections on harm and other effect were split up? -Jillium 23:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Be careful equating being asymptomatic or indifferent with being harmless.  A person can be asymptomatic now because she's learned to deal with the trauma and is fully recovered, or may have buried the emotions and be on the verge of a mental collapse.  A person may also have zero direct physical or psychological harm but may still be affected in a negative way.  For example, a person wants to write an autobiography but has to leave out the incest because her father is still alive despite her burning desire to write a complete autobiography.  While not harm, this is a negative effect caused by the combination of sex with her father and society's reaction to it should it become known.  Dfpc 21:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue should be regarded as "a central topic in its own right" according to one of the most cited literature reviews made by some of the most prominent researchers and published in the most important journal on the area. So there is plenty of support for significant writings on this area in the article. Voice of Britain 21:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  da hell...? 

message: References are already in the quotation. Full citations don't detract from the article and they're helpful to the reader. Revert yourself, please. -Jillium 23:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't add links to quotations, internal or external, and I'm not sure we need a long quotaiton for this material. Why can't it be summarized? -Will Beback · † · 00:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, if we only quote informztion which disputes the concept that CSA is harmful then we're unbalancing the article. I suggest we summarize all of the quotes and try to avoid giving undue attention to any single study. -Will Beback · † · 01:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with that.SamDavidson 01:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "don't add refs to quotations"

message: I was away visiting my parents so I couldn't reply, but I will now address the points which I can see in the earlier discussion. 
*The article is old and not current.  
:As Jillium already has pointed out, the book is from 2003 and is more current than most of the material we use, so this argument is not reasonable unless you can demonstrate that the material is obsolete. It does however cast doubts on the material you posted which is from before 2003 which implies connections to CSA trauma which may have been incorrect. 
*What is the basis for stating Mcnally is the "most influential researcher in the field?"  My review of the lit shows very little research by this individual regarding the effects of a child being molested by perpertrators, pedophiles, and others.
:Here is what he has to say himself: "I am Professor and Director of Clinical Training in the Department of Psychology at Harvard University. I have 250 publications, many in the field of traumatic stress and memory, including the book Remembering Trauma (2003, Harvard University Press). My research, funded by the National Institute of Mental Health, includes laboratory studies on cognitive functioning in adults who report having been sexually abused as children. I served on the American Psychiatric Association's committee for revising the diagnostic criteria for posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), and I am among the approximately 260 psychologists and psychiatrists identified by the Institute for Scientific Information as "highly cited" (i.e., top one half of one percent of all published psychologists and psychiatrists worldwide in terms of citation impact)."
:Should be good enough for wikipedia I think. Voice of Britain 18:55, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Why is the quote on McNally being removed? Part 2