Talk:List of video game genres/Archive 1

message: User Mihirviveka has been spamming many genre-related pages with advertisments for the game Democracy Game, an article suggested for deletion. On the List of computer and video games by genre page he invented the genre "Political Strategy" solely for his(?) game. In this article he inserted it as the first speciment in both the turn-based and educational game example lists. Wikipedia is not a place for advertisment, and I suggest we watch this user closely. Mikademus 09:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Spamming

message: A new category was added by anon editor 64.174.34.252, "survey games", which apparently are 
"Simulators which simulate more than one type of vehicle in a shared simulated world". Examples are Dangerous Waters and Battleground Europe. I have never heard of this genre denomination. A quick googling provided me with two links only even resembling the suggested usage and a number of astronomical usages. Is it a limited trade term? In any way I have never seen it used in the games industry. Mikademus 16:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is questionable, I think I've heard it used but very rarely. It's probably not notable enough to include here.  --SevereTireDamage 22:41, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Survey simulators"

message: I think the alphabetical mode of listing isn't the best.  FPS and TPS should be listed together in category "individual combat".  "Adventure" and "Roleplaying" should be listed together under "individual action" (or somesuch.)  I.E.
===Individual Combat===
====FPS====
====TPS====
That way, related genres can be grouped together and their differences and similarities explored and explained. Elde 00:25, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that particular taxonomy really works. Crossreferencing is a better idea, since there are plenty of games that get categorized in one genre that have next to nothing in common with games of "related" genres (should Diablo really be in the same category as Zork?). -Sean 01:17, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: At some point we have to stop excercising personal preferences here. (See my previous note.)  It is not the job of Wikipedians to express POV or explore differences.  ("Individual Combat"?  Are we just making stuff up now?)  If this is to be a list of genres, let it be that.  Any hierarchically ordered list is POV.  Those of us here working in game development have a stake: Don't misrepresent our field with your idiosyncrasies!  PilotPrecise 07:43, 12 March 2004 (UTC)

text: Any taxonomy of games is bound to be incomplete, controversial, and at least partially ambiguous... - F.D. Laramee
*Action Games
**Responsiveness
**Pacing
**Sensory immersion
**Hand-eye coordination''
***Arcade classics
***Fighting games
***Arcade racing games
***FPS
***Sports games other than those focusing on team management
****Ex: Tekken, NBA Live!, Asteroids!, Pole Position, Quake
*Management Games
**Scope
**Time constraints
**Complexity
***Turn-based strategy
***God games
***Virtual lab experiments
***Sports franchise management games
****Ex: Sim City, Populous, Panzer General, Sim Earth, Championship Manager, Harpoon
*Fast Strategy Games
**Simplified world
**Coarse-grained management
***RTS
***Time-oriented coarse simulations
****Ex: Dune II, Railroad Tycoon, Age of Empires, Warcraft, Zoo Tycoon
*Story-Driven Games
**Linearity
**Characters
***Adventure games
***Interactive fiction
***RPGs
***Online serials
****Ex: King's Quest, Diablo, Final Fantasy, Kiss:Immortals, Monkey Island
*Simulators
**Mimic [RL] experience in detail
**Accuracy
**Controls, real-life mappings
**Tendency to overspecialization
***Fligh sims 
***Racing sims 
****Ex: MS Flight Sim,IL2 Sturmovik, F1, Superbike 2000, MS Train Simulator
*Abstract Games
**Players manipulate symbols...real-life situations without realism
**Technological neutrality
**Simplicity/casual
***Adaptions of classic games
***Puzzle games
***Social games
***Playing-card games
***Interactive gambling
***Solitaire
***Slower-paced arcade classics
****Ex: Chess, checkers, Tetris, Monopoly, Magic the Gathering, 
*Platform Games
**Strong characters
**Environment exploration
**Dexterity puzzles
***Side-scrollers
***3D exploration games
****Ex: Donkey Kong, Super Mario Bros., Crash Bandicoot, Prince of Persia, Flashback
*Edutainment
**Combines playful activities with learning
****Ex: Where...is Carmen Sandiego? (series), Oregon Trail, Putt-Putt (series), Math Blaster!
*Persistent Game Worlds
**Game world persists whether specific user is logged in or not
**Social dynamics
***Massively multiplayer role-playing
***Special purpose (multiplayer) communities such as Air Warrior or Paintball.NET
****Ex:Ultima Online, Air Warrior, Everquest, DAoC, WWII Online
So that's one, and one in a good book to boot.  But is that superior to the top-level genres of Moby Games?:
*Action
*Adventure
*Educational
*Racing / Driving
*Role-Playing (RPG)
*Simulation
*Sports
*Strategy
It really does become a matter of preference, which itself is a manifestation of POV.  PilotPrecise 09:58, 12 March 2004 (UTC)

text: I think there's a misunderstanding about "NPOV" - it means "neutral", not "no" point of view. Most everybody understands that genres are not hard and fast, and there is a point where we have to use some of our own brainpower in deciding how to organize. Lots of subdivision is fine, just as long as each one is attested by an authoritative source, and if a subdivision is uncommon, NPOV just means we say "this subgenre is not commonly identified". Discussion of genres and genre-crossing games is good to include here, because WP is the perfect place to separate the avalanche of marketing hype from reality. Stan 17:31, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: But if we abandon alpha listing, how will they be listed then? If we list like genres together, that just prepetuates the problem. Alpha listing (with or without crossrefs) is the best way to do this IMHO. -Sean 08:32, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-arranging the page 

message: I object to the revert of my changes to an older version. Information about the effect of FPS on 3D technology is not mentioned in the FPS article. However I will place it in that article instead of here. DB0 08:40, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  FPS revert 

message: Most game genres are so mixed up together that they effectively create a new genre all by themselves. However all of us recognise that there are some standard archetypes that are a perfect example of a type of game.
What I propose is to name those archetypes and then create a secondary hybrid category where games are assigned two archetypes.
For example:
;Basic Genres
*Adventure Archetypes: Monkey Island, King's Quest
*RPG Archetypes: Eye of the Beholder, Baldur's Gate
*TBS Archetypes: Civilization, Sim City
*Puzzle Archetypes: 7th Guest
*FPS: Doom, Quake, Unreal 
;Hybrids
*Adventure-RPGs: Quest for Glory
*TBS-RPGS: Fallout Tactics, Heroes of Might and Magic
*Puzzle-Adventures: Myst, Riven
*Puzzle-Platform: 3 Vikings
*Puzzle-Platform-FPS: Tomb Raider
Just like colors have 3 basics that are combined to produce all the others, games have some basics that can be combined to produce any other type that does not fit into one specific genre. Even games that could fit in do many genres could be classified without problem. For example, say a new GTA came out that had RPG elements as well; where would it fit? 
What do you think?DB0 10:11, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hybrids 

message: Right, I've held off long enough. :)
Could we please clarify this 'Fixed shooter' thing? I have never heard any game referred to as a fixed shooter. I've never even heard of the genre. And I'm a big shoot 'em up fan. Therefore, to have it as a main genre doesn't make sense to me.
Secondly - the classification of scrolling shooters as a subgenre of fixed shooters seems absurd to me. This is like classifying every tennis game as a subclass of Pong.
My solution is just to class all these shooters under the single genre of shoot 'em up. It is the traditional name for this kind of game, and has been since at least the early nineties.
I would have done this, but I didn't want to mess up the system already in use. Spottedowl 17:23, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fixed shooters 

message: "It should be noted that all who are intrested in this subdivision pay close attention to the new MMORTS in development, Earth 2160: Online as it shows great promise."
This Doesn't seem to be NPOV to me, more like shameless advertising. But I'm new here and to shy to just remove it at this moment.
:I wonder how that slipped by. I've removed it. Slike2 01:27, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Who moved this article and why?  This is not a list of computer and video games by genre.  That would imply that it's a big list of video games, separated by genre.  It's not: it's a list of video game genres, with examples from each genre.  I elect to move it back to "Computer and video game genres".  Any objections? — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:11, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
:Pretty soon here I'm going to assume that they're aren't any objections and move it back... — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:33, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I totally agree, move it back. --Trickstar 20:18, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I took care of it. There is already a List of computer and video games by genre, so the name made no sense. K1Bond007 02:58, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Who moved this article?

message: Someone should add this ever increasing in popularity genre.  With games like Second Life and concepts like "Gary's Mod," I beleive that the Sandbox Game is worth note as a gaming genre.  Please someone write this bad boy up.MCP 02:35, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sandbox Games

message: Should there be a note on games that combine genres? Parasite Eve comes to mind as one; a combination of Survival Horror and RPG. Just a thought. --Thaddius 14:14, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Genre Combining?

message: Does this really classify as a genre? I would think it's suffice to say that the examples listed(Pac Man/Mr. Do) under the maze genre are examples of action or arcade games. Thus, this item does not need to be here. 
--Mitaphane 22:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Arcade game" is not a genre. Action is a general term, to which Pac Man really does not apply. --larsinio (poke)(prod) 15:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just trying to be consistent as far as the article is concerned. Action is a general term. And arcade game is a description of a game that does not neccesarily mean its a genre(e.g. a fighting game is an arcade game). But as far as the article is phrased, action( "...the most basic of gaming genres, and certainly one of the broadest...characterized by gameplay with emphasis on actions that the player must perform reflexively...") and arcade("traditionally the coin-operated video games found in arcades during the 1970s and 1980s...characterized as quick play action games that had an addictive quality...easy to learn, yet difficult to master") fit both the examples listed in the Maze genre. Moreover, the genre is specific enough to where I would say it only covers Pac Man, associated knock offs, and Mr. Do, a game which really doesn't have mazes in the same way Pac Man does.--Mitaphane 04:36, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maze Game? 

message: Is that large PNG bothering anyone else? It includes text as an image. This is evil - text should be text. If we need this table we should use an image.
Also, doesn't it contain the same information as the rest of the article, and primarily the table of contents? And where it doesn't, how does it fare on the "no original research" scale? What are the published sources for this particular schematic? Shinobu 14:49, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed on all points. It also breaks my page layout at 1024x768 resolution. And I'm not even sure the table really makes sense at all, considering there are in fact Sports RPGs, Strategy RPGs, Flight sim adventure games, abstract video pinball games, etc. It would take the most convoluted Venn diagram to even try to make sense of that theory. As you said, such overlapping genre interrelation is definitely original research. I'm removing it. --SevereTireDamage 08:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The table is not original research, it is simply a compilation of the genres discussed in the related Wikipedia pages (thus not an attempt to promote a theory of video game classifications) and added to raise peer feedback. I argue that a tabulation provides information at a glance that an article-o-lists on stereoids does not, especially given the messy and haphazard state of the article at present (not to mention the state of many if the "meta-genre" (and some "genre") articles). The table of contents is in fact just as much original research as the tabulation: the tabulation just collected together what is said on other wikipediua pages while the table of contents makes own claims about the relations of genres, claims in fact not always consistent with what the specific pages say(!). Further, as the article states, genre-crossovers etc cannot be treated; even the wikipedia pages are generally only about the at least somewhat recognised major divisions. If that would be touched it would take a multidimensional venn and a staff of schizophrenic reseachers to do something of it. Anyway, the tabulation was an early version and some entries in it were less than satisfactory. I will make a new version later. Mikademus 17:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Given the highly subjective state of video game genre classificiation as it is, and the lack of formal studies to cite, I would simply prefer not to have a table at all to be on the safe side. I do agree that the article itself is somewhat disorganized as it is. (Heck, I would think that platformers and puzzle games belong in the Major genres category - it probably isn't due to the slight computer game bias on WP.) That said, other genre pages, such as the main one, cinematic genre, and (admittedly undeveloped) literary genre pages are doing fine without charts. --SevereTireDamage 00:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh, the reason I made the first version was in fact because I needed it to help me make heads or tails of the WP game genre jungle as it is. We'll see what you think of the next version, later, and if/when included in the article it can be positioned in a much less intrusive (page-widening) way. Oh, when on a good discussion subject, though a bit of a tangent, platform games is generally recognised as as sub-genre of "arcade" games for traditional reasons and as such a division that wouldn't fulfil other scientific requirements than those of descriptive history. If genres had been thought out in advance --and especially had been given better names!-- then we wouldn't have the absurd overlaps and confusion that plague and befuddle the topic, if it can be called that, today. Mikademus 07:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table