Talk:Craig Murray

message: In the Legal Pressure section it's stated that Craig Murray's web hosting company shut down his site in September 2007. I notice that Craig's new site [www.craigmurray.org.uk] is now down, and has been like that for a couple of days (i.e. since at least 14th Sept 2009). Is anybody aware of any further legal action, or any other reason that could have caused this?
Darriuk (talk) 19:10, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Craig's Website

message: ... Murray has stated is the government "trying to claw back the very limited gains in Freedom of Information in the UK",[26] especially attempts to close websites on which the supporting documents were posted instead. Though many attempts to do this have proved successful, media interest has also meant that the documents frequently re-surface on mirror sites ...
The documents are on his web site now. The timeline is a bit of a mess.
Would be good if this could be tidied up.
Rich Farmbrough, 02:29, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Documents

message: ===Controversies===
According to Paul Craig Roberts,The World's Least Powerful Man, by Paul Craig Roberts, 1 December 2009
--end--
Seems more about promoting Roberts than adding to the article. Rich Farmbrough, 02:34, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed

message: According to Paul Craig Roberts,The World's Least Powerful Man, by Paul Craig Roberts, 1 December 2009
--end--
Seems more about promoting Roberts than adding to the article. Rich Farmbrough, 02:34, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversies

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: my life lap dancer - she wrote this herself.  'I had asked him which bus would take me to the club.' 
'she was forced to swap her respectable but low-paid teaching position for a job in a lap-dancing club and how Murray spotted her there and took her away from it all.'
the squalid truth  Why is Murray allowed to dictate the articles language? 
92.3.26.69 (talk) 19:16, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: He is not, and I changed the reference for consistency after realising the Max Hastings review of Murder in Samarkand could resolve what I perceived to be a problem. As the later theatre show which featured Nadira Alieva was The British Ambassador's Bellydancer, she was later previously referred to as having been a "lap dancer" in the "personal life and awards" section, which looked odd to me. In any case, Alieva is described as having been an "exotic dancer" in many other sources. I know the former Ambassador has a mixed reputation, but Murray seems to be the main source as to the details of his first meeting with his second wife. The Daily Mail, because it is a tabloid newspaper, is frowned upon as a source for editors to use, see Identifying reliable sources. Philip Cross (talk) 20:06, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough - I loathe the Daily Mail myself, but  the woman  wrote the article  herself. She says the club where they met was was one where she was  'dancing in just my underwear but the other girls seemed as comfortable as if they were skipping around their own bedrooms.
I admired how professional they were and by the end of the first week I had found my nerve.
It was at the club in April 2003 that I met Craig Murray.' my life lap dancer - that becomes for Murray 'a belly dancing club'. He is dictating the articles language if you ask me, but I respect you as an editor. But  belly dancing, as I've seen it portrayed in films, and I remember I saw Lawrence Durrell in a film at one performance, is highly skilled , is something different - and the dancer didn't wear 'just underwear'.   the text as is stands 'where she was working as a belly dancer' looks bad to me - if she was working as a belly dancer why didn't she write that in the Mail article? 92.3.26.69 (talk) 20:23, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

text: After looking at you last link, I find the main use of the term "lap dancer" in Alieva's Mail article is in the article's heading (which would have been written by a sub-editor), while the principal reference to nude dancing is from the brief period when she worked for Spearmint Rhino in London, not Taskent, as is the sole reference in the article to her time as a lap dancer. So on this evidence, "lap dancer" still seems inappropriate for Murray's article. Philip Cross (talk) 21:31, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not arguing for 'lap dancer' necessarily, I'm just saying 'belly dancer' isn't supported by the evidence she herself presented of dancing around in underwear. You think that is her saying she was a 'belly dancer' -?? Murray is making out he met her at some kind of cultural event if you ask me - 'a belly dancing club'.  It should be 'where the couple met while she was  working in a club where the women danced in their underwear' - and thats from his wifes own account. 92.3.26.69 (talk) 21:43, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

text:  The full title of "the squalid truth" Mail article from December 2007 is "The squalid truth about Our Man in Uzbekistan and his belly dancer lover", and the content also suggests "belly dancer" is the correct term to use. Other editor's are likely to take a dim view, if any of the more salacious material about the club in Taskent were to be added. I should know, I have been burnt a few times, mainly in my editing of the article about the arch-establishment writer Paul Johnson.  Philip Cross (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm talking abut the article she wrote - if you think it suggests 'belly dancer' is the correct term to use for what the dancers were doing at the club where she met Murray, well, I just don't agree with you, but won't belabour the point any more. The article should be as 'salacious' as the reality it seeks to present in my opinion, no more , no less. At first I was shy about dancing in  just my underwear - [but] by the end of the first week I had found my nerve - What 'nerve' is required to be a belly dancer? Skill, yes, but 'nerve' ? Her own version means surely at first she was nervous about dancing around in her underwear in this club but after a week she lost her nerves. But whatever, let the whitewashers win . 92.3.26.69 (talk) 22:12, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lap dancer 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The British educational systems is outstandingly obtuse to an American.  Please translate this sentence into some string of words internationally intelligible:
:He spent seven years in total at the university, he had to sit one year twice for not attending tutorials, compared to a normal four for a Scottish first degree."
This makes no sense to an American. For example the word "sit" cannot mean sit above.  Americans in university (last I knew & I have a number of American degrees) do not attend tutorials, whatever tutorials are.  The sentence seems to imply that Murray was penalized for not attending tutorials and had to so something twice, yet the article goes on to saying that there are "a normal four" (four what? four tutorials?). So it sounds like he was penalized to have to do something twice, though the normal is four. Twas brillig & the slithy toves, did gyre & gimbel in the wage.  (PeacePeace (talk) 19:19, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: A correlation isn't any sort of conspiracy theory.Keith-264 (talk) 22:28, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please translate for Americans 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: IP user:46.208.174.77 has objected to my use of this source because the citation is dependant on the Daily Mail which is rather notorious on this site.
WP:CONTEXTMATTERS says "In general, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication". Which would not seem to exclude The Washington Times, which is not a "tabloid" in the meaning of Yellow journalism, of which the Mail is regularly accused. 
In addition, WP:BLPSOURCES says: "Material should not be added to an article when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism. When material is both verifiable and noteworthy, it will have appeared in more reliable sources" (my emphasis).
The disputed issue has been mentioned elsewhere, and is therefore not invalid for inclusion. That "Murray denies the Daily Mail assertion" (see the edit history) is not a reason for excluding it.
The self-published writings of the subject of an article are normally admissible, but Murray's blog contains contentious claims about living third-parties which are potentially libellous. So it is best avoided most of the time. I should have edited this article more often. Murray's outburst about the Scottish independence referendum ('No' voters being "evil, or quite extraordinarily thick") should have been properly cited before now. Philip Cross (talk) 21:20, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Per WP:DAILYMAIL1, we do not use anything that is sourced to that newspaper. Additionally, the diverging political agendas between Murray and Daily Mail make the paper an even less reliable source on Murray. Washington Post's editorial policies might differ, but here we are editing an encyclopaedia, not a news piece. — kashmīrī TALK 03:58, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: ''The Washington Times''

message: Today, NomdeA made an edit to the article's first sentence which has subsequently been reverted.
The description of Craig Murray was changed from "a British former diplomat, now a human rights campaigner and journalist" to "a British former diplomat, now “a blogger who describes himself as a historian and human rights activist.”
The change is based on a the description given in a Guardian article by Severin Carrell which NomdeA added a citation to: "Murray, a blogger who describes himself as a historian and human rights activist."
Curiously, given that Nomdea based the change on a single self-added source, appearing to ignore previously cited sources, the edit reason given was based on neutrality: "Neutral language taken from a reliable source."
With regard to neutrality, Nomdea might like to read the Guardian's own contributor profile for Craig Murray: "Craig Murray is an author, blogger and human rights activist. Formerly a diplomat, he was the UK's ambassador in Uzbekistan from 2002 to 2004. He stood as an independent parliamentary candidate in Blackburn in 2005. Craig is also an honorary research fellow at the University of Lancaster School of Law."
Besides descriptions given in previously cited sources, as always, Google can be used to find more. For instance, Jacobin magazine states: "Craig Murray is an author, broadcaster and human rights activist."
    ←   ZScarpia   17:40, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Please acquaint yourself with WP:RS. The Guardian meets that policy and Jacobin doesn’t. Author biographies are always written by the author, not the source. You didn’t read the link for Murray’s Guardian profile which actually says it is “OWN contributor profile”. Again, please acquaint yourself with Wikipedia policies. NomdeA (talk) 18:13, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The word "own", as in the Guardian's own profile for Murray, was, as Cambial Yellowing points out below, MY usage, not the Guardian's. Make an attempt to read sources properly before commenting. Even if profiles are written by the subjects themselves, unless the Guardian indicates that the author, rather than the paper, is responsible for the accuracy of the content, it doesn't really make any difference as far as reliability goes, doesn't it?  I gave Jacobin as an example. If it really has been judged consensually an unreliable source, then, given some of the dross which is acceptable, it demonstrates that Wikipedia really does have a problem.       ←   ZScarpia   21:50, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

text:  You've done four reverts in 24 hours, moreover BLPs are under discretionary sanctions regime. Any admin will be in their right to block you now for your edit warring. — kashmīrī TALK 19:24, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Please acquaint yourself with WP:RS. Your edit wars are unconstructive. NomdeA (talk) 20:01, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  was written by zscarpia; one presumes they also read it, in the writing. The profile itself does not contain the text you emphasised. Cambial foliage❧ 20:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  NomdeA: edit to the article's first sentence. 

message: The two sources for the description of Murray as a journalist do not say this. One calls him a blogger and the other calls him a “‘new media’ journalist”. So he’s a blogger and should be called one.NomdeA (talk) 10:03, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Plainly, a 'new media' journalist is a journalist. The other article refers to him as a journalist, as well as a blogger. The word blogger is informal and does not represent encyclopaedic WP:TONE. While "blogger" and "journalist" are not exact synonyms, the more formal word is the appropriate one for the opening sentence of an encyclopaedia. Cambial foliage❧ 10:48, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The word “plainly” is doing a lot of work there. It’s not plain. Writing a blog is not journalism. I suggest the article should be changed to “blogger’, in line with the Guardian description of Murray which meets the standard of WP:RS. NomdeA (talk) 14:54, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The National describes Murray as a journalist , and I'm guessing he'd be considered so by Scottish nationalists, but not English nationalists. Given this and his "new media" designation, I think calling him a journalist is appropriate. -Darouet (talk) 15:28, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

text: , "new media journalist" is a synonym for self-published writer, aka blogger. Guy (help! - typo?) 19:11, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It isn't a synonym for blogger. Where did you get that notion? New media simply means digital/computer based media. So it means a journalist who works in that medium, a subset of "journalist". If it was some masked reference to "not a journalist but a blogger" they wouldn't have used the word "journalist", would they? They're not talking in code, and neither is the Telegraph. Cambial foliage❧ 19:34, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

text: Another self-published site: Bellingcat. "Investigative journalism" or just a blog?     ←   ZScarpia   20:57, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subject description as “journalist” 

message: Photographs taken at today's demonstration have been uploaded to Wikimedia Commons under the normal, free-use licence.  FreeCraigMurray (talk) 19:58, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent. I have chosen a photo that seems to show Murray addressing the crowd with his family around him. Let's see what people think. Burrobert (talk) 13:55, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added more photos to Wikimedia Commons, which can be found by clicking on my Uploads link. They include photos taken at Craig Murray Justice demonstrations, a screen grab of yesterday's birthday Zoom meeting, and a head-and-shoulders extract of Craig Murray taken from one of the other photos. The latter can be substituted for the photo currently being used in the Lead if wanted. Yesterday's Zoom meeting was recorded and uploaded to Youtube under the title "Anonymous Bites Back - Happy Birthday Craig Murray Live Event".   FreeCraigMurray (talk) 14:16, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikimedia Commons: Photographs taken at the Sunday, 1 September 2021 demonstration outside St. Leonard's police station, Edinburgh as Craig Murray handed himself in. 

message: As I was reading this article, this section stuck out to me. I am not quite sure how either the paragraphs about the 2016 DNC hack or his questioning of the Skripal poisonings fall under the banner of human rights. While you could make the case that the Assange trial falls in this category, I do not believe it takes up enough of the section to justify the subheader.
Looking back at the edit history, I noticed that the section was changed by user:Kashmiri from activism to human rights activism. I will be reverting it back to the broader term. Andrewdonshik (talk) 23:31, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You have "Political activism" just two entries earlier. I'd keep this section as "Human rights activism", otherwise it will be confusing. It will make more sense to move Skripals elsewhere IMO. — kashmīrī TALK 23:44, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

text: Hmmm. Fair point. I would also suggest moving the DNC-related stuff to political activism. Maybe it is best to move the Assange trials to the Investigative Reporting section as well. Andrewdonshik (talk) 23:50, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section: Human Rights Activism 

message: 42 photographs taken outside Saughton Prison, Edinburgh as Craig Murray was released have been uploaded to Wikimedia Commons and are feely useable. Early articles about the release have been published by The Independent and The Herald. A video of the event titled "Craig Murray release and statement" has been uploaded to YouTube by IndependenceLive.  FreeCraigMurray (talk) 17:14, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikimedia Commons: Photographs taken outside Saughton Prison (HMP Edinburgh) on the release of Craig Murray, 30 November 2021. 

message: Why is it not called "Conspiracy theories"? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:39, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Activism may not be the best choice of heading. However, we also need to avoid using contentious labels. We correctly attribute the description "conspiracy theory" once within that section. Burrobert (talk) 14:07, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

text: Agree with Burrobert. Section title should be neutral. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:00, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is a section on Murray's conspiracy theories called "Activism"? 

message: An editor has opened a discussion about this article at the RS noticeboard but neglected to notify the talk page here. It’s about the use of ostensible claims supposedly made to the Daily Mail discussed in a section above. Cambial — foliar❧ 14:57, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion at RSN on use of Daily Mail