Portal talk:North Macedonia/Intro

message: #REDIRECT Portal talk:North Macedonia
Macedonia, understand once and for all that such blatant changes will not go unnoticed. You are being watched under microscope my friend. FunkyFly 17:09, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

message: I have reverted the portal text to the version by telex because it better represents the linguistic situation in the country. Contrary to the claims by macedonia, Albanian is considered to be a major language in the country (BBC), and is used in local government in municipalities with substantial Albanian population. TheArchon 17:41, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Even less people speak German in Belgium, but German is an official language there. Albanian IS used for the whole country and ALL legislation and official goings on are translated into Albanian - hence, the Albanian name stays. Telex 21:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

text: It is official - see . Telex 22:01, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, it isn't :-)  Macedonia 22:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

text: The constitutional amendments mandated by the FWA provide that Albanian is to be recognized as a second, official language in areas in which it is spoken by more than 20 percent of the population. The FWA stipulated that the Albanian language would be used officially in Parliament for the first time in October 2002 by M.P.s newly elected in 2002, with interpretation in the Macedonian language provided for ethnic Macedonians and others. (from )
Regards, Telex 22:16, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

text: But why discriminate against the minorities. 5% in Finland speak Swedish, look at Portal:Finland. Telex 12:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Wait a minute, the quote I gave above said that Albanian would be used officially in parliament according to the constitutional amendements. I don't know about Turkish and Romany and other languages which comprise 5% of the population, but Albanian is spoken offcially in parliament. What is your quote which limits Albanian to local gov. Telex 12:22, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Therefore, the Albanian name should be in the intro (and once the main article is unprotected, it should be introduced there). Anyway, the BBC says that there are two main languages in ROM, Macedonian and Albanian and if you use the BBC as a source to imply that the Macedonian language existed in medival times on Macedonian language, it would be double standards not to. Not to mention that if you remove the recognised Albanian name from here, I'll be removing the Macedonian names from all the Albanian and Greek articles on places. Telex 12:33, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I guess it's because I'm a cosmopolitan, not a nationalist that I advocate using all official lanuages. BTW, are you that pro-Macedonian anon over at sqwiki? Telex 12:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The question is this, I think: are Macedonian and Albanian both official languages of the RoM, in the same measure, like Flemish and French in Belgium, or Swedish and Finnish in Finland? The question in this article (or in the article RoM) should not be the number of people speaking the two languages, but their status.--Aldux 12:50, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: That is not the only criterion. The official language of Inner Mongolia is Chinese - that doesn't stop Wikipedia mentioning the Mongolian name. Telex 12:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Nope, Albanian is de jure official. It was one of the terms of agreement with the guerrillas. Telex 12:56, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I believe Albanian is official only at a local level; it's the official language in Albanian majority municipalities, while Macedonian is the official language in all municipalities, and I think it's also the sole language of the highest levels of administration. In Italy we have a province (South Tyrol) where German is majoritarian, and as such is used in schools and local administration; but that doesn't mean that Italy has two official languages.--Aldux 13:06, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: And in the national parliament/assembly . Telex 13:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, the famous cosmopolitan Kofi Annan uses it. Telex 13:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Not quite - he has to take the worldly viewpoint; that's the definition of a cosmopolitan. Telex 13:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Anyway, what's your problem with the Albanian Wikipedia. The Greek and Danish Wikipedias use it and no one uprises. Telex 13:16, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: What's wrong with the Greek Wikipedia. It's more neutral than the Macedonian Wikipedia, which draws a POV parralel between Modern (Slavic) and Ancient Macedonians. Telex 13:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah right. What about the NPOV article :mk:Историја на македонскиот народ and template :mk:Шаблон:Историја на македонскиот народ. You sure are denying that you have anything to do with the ancients ;-) nothing short of direct linage. That article sure gave me a good laugh . What was that that you were saying about NPOV? Telex 14:23, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: That's a strawman, no Greek claims unbroken descent from ancient Macedon (find a source for that). What they do resist is the monopolisation of the name (and everything associated). Telex 14:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: On the contrary - read my past comments. I said I love my multiethnic (and multicultural) country I live in. And, I have a lot of Albanian friends. I think I made my point. Bomac 17:28, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: BTW are there any Greeks in R. Macedonia? Before 1945, the place was full of them. I have heard somewhere that there are a lot of people there claiming Greek descent, but that's about it. Telex 17:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Jas sum kosmopolit. Zatoa, e nevozmozhen da sum Grk ili neshto drug. Telex 18:09, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language 

message: Enough with the reverting. Is there any "sane" reason (note the "sane") why not to include the minority languages spoken in the RoM ? Stop frenching around. - FrancisTyers 19:48, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because we don't know them all. Who knows what Republic of Macedonia is called in the Megleno-Romanian language. Telex 19:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, if we don't know we can't include it, but how about the ones we know about? - FrancisTyers 20:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I dont think that you guys should push the minority language idea too far. There are only are few countries in the world which are ethnically homogeneous, and in all others there are minorities speaking their language. So the question is really how significant a minority should be in order to be included. For the republic is about 25%, for Arabic of France - maybe 5%. Spanish in the US - maybe 15%, Turkish in Bulgaria - 7-8% Russian in the Ukraine - also about 25%. FunkyFly 19:56, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Languages

message: I've blocked User:Macedonia aka. User:64.187.60.66 for violating the 3RR. However, what he says has a point, the country is referred to as simply "Macedonia". I will re-add this. - FrancisTyers 23:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The country is also referred to as FYROM (short form of 'former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'), but i do not see this name in the article...Hence, their is no reason to isolate the word 'Macedonia' from the full constitutional name 'Republic of Macedonia'. Otherwise we should say: sometimes referred to as the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, or simply FYROM. --Hectorian 23:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok. Although I would have no problem putting FYROM in parentheses after former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and then including Macedonia aswell. Probably not necessary though. - FrancisTyers 23:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Fran, it has a point as much as the "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" has a point in the main article, since "the country is referred to as" that name too (in many millions of instances). However, you chose to vote only for the option that doesn't include it. Editors here may sense double standards, so please clarify your position...(your "Probably not necessary though." should have covered me —sorry, but... darn edit conflict!) NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 23:21, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: The Agreement met the Albanian demands with regard to establishing the official status of the Albanian language. Every other language other than Macedonian – which remains the main official language, to be used for example in foreign relations – that is spoken by more than 20 per cent of the population will henceforth be an official language on the central level as well as in communities where more than 20 per cent  of the population speak that other official language. In fact, only Albanian fulfils this condition. Languages other than Macedonian which are spoken by at least 20 per cent of the inhabitants of a municipality will, however, also serve as an official language in local self government. Furthermore, the government will henceforth have to provide university education for language communities which speak another official language than Macedonian. This way the protracted ‘Albanian university’ issue, which has been a cornerstone of Albanian political activism in Macedonia since the early 1990s, should finally be put to rest.
About the Ohrid Agreement, see 
Now, couldn't one of you guys have found and cited that? Lets remove them all with the exception of Macedonian and Albanian. I'm not going to do it, you do the leg work. - FrancisTyers 21:57, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok Fran. I will. Will you do what you have to do in Portal:Greece/Intro for me please?  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 22:06, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Language problem sorted