Talk:Theogony

message: I've long noticed a link between the characteristics of the third generation gods and the eight trigrams of the I Ching. Their attributes are remarkably similar. The order of birth differs, but they both seem to be trying to describe the forces in nature (including human nature). Anyway, it seems like:
Parents: Gaia = 坤 kūn (receptive/field), and Uranus (maybe Cronus?) = 乾 qián (creative force heaven/sky).
The daughters: Hestia = 離 lí (fire), Demeter = 兌 duì (joy/fertility), Hera = 巽 xùn (penetrating wind).
The sons:  Hades = 艮 gèn (mountain), Poseidon = 坎 kǎn (water), Zeus = 震 zhèn (thunder).
Did these two proto-scientfic systems evolve independently, or were these cultures in contact? If anyone has studied this, I'd love to know more!
Hillbillyholiday81 (talk) 16:50, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Most probably they evolved independently from one another. As far as I know there was no contact between ancient Greeks and Chinese.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.219.45.174 (talk) 05:46, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Similarity to Chinese mythology?

message: It mentions that Eros was created from Chaos (First Gen), and from Aphrodite (Last Gen).  Which one is correct? 90.220.148.96 (talk)
: As a matter of speaking both are correct. They are myths from different time periods just like the origin of Aphrodite.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.219.45.174 (talk) 05:47, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Eros

message: This article is full of somewhat confusing comments on the poem Theogony (mostly so if you have not read it) and it reads more like part of a school essay than an encyclopedia article. I'm not sure what to do with it: it has a sort of vague summary, but maybe a more specific listing of the myths dealt with in the Theogony would be a good start. Andrew123 06:17, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticisms

message: This could use some mentions of the debate of authorship, no? Consider the article for Hesiod's standpoint on the notion. Λι 07:24, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Authorship debate

message: "After Ouranos had been castrated, Gaia mated with Pontos to create a descendent line " - I don't see the name Pontos anywhere else before this statement.  Is it supposed to be Pontos?  or Pontus?  or Ponos? --BlueRaja 22:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe it should be Pontos. Pontus is the latin translation and Ponos an entirely different thing (pain).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.219.45.174 (talk) 05:49, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Pontos

message: This article seems to be drifting farther from a report on Hesiod's poem. We have a general article Greek mythology, which, if it were better, would cover thie generations of gods, and their futures,  more generally. --Wetman 01:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article should present geneaologies as laid forth in Hesiod's poem, but I see no special reason why it must exclude them altogether.  Since other versions of myths may lay forth alternate lineages, having the Hesiod versions collected in this article seems practical and useful.  It would be quite difficult to summarize the poem without mentioning any filiations. Robert K S 07:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sticking close to Hesiod's text surely involves the genealogies. Spinning them out with details that are not in Hesiod is simply distracting. --Wetman 08:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hesiod

message: I thought that Gaia came after Khoas, not a child of her, also Theoi Project can back that up  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.54.124 (talk) 23:35, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Khaos borning Gaia 

message: The author of the article mentions that Zeus created woman as a punishment for the theft of fire, and names her Pandora. However, the name "Pandora" is not substantiated by the text of the Theogony itself (it is a general assumption based on a similar theme in "Works and Days" which does mention Pandora). In the Theogony, the woman is nameless, and there is no discussion of her opening the jar of hope or any of the other activities associated with her. I think it should be re-written to be authentic to the text, or at least mention that this is supposition based on other works by Hesiod. Madnessandcivilization (talk) 16:46, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That's Pandora. Any decent interpretation of the Theogony will tell you so. There's no reason to avoid using her name, though it should be mentioned that the Theogony doesn't use it. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:45, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pandora 

message: In general, I agree with people that this article has a number of confusions. With regard to the section on "Creation of the world-mythical cosmogonies" specifically:
First, "creation of the world" and "cosmogony" are synonyms, so the title of the section is odd.  The author must mean something like "Comparison with Other Cosmogonies".
Second, however, there are thousands of cosmogonies, so it is not clear why an arbitrary sample of Orphic, Vedic, Judaic, and Babylonian cosmogonies should be offered, especially when they seem to shed no particular light on Hesiod's.
Third, and in a related way, concatenating Babylonian, Vedic, Judaic, Hesiodic, and Orphic cosmogonies together creates a false impression that they are contemporary somehow, when in fact they differ in time by thousands of years.
Fourth, more than this, the specific valences implied by each are radically divergent as well. The Judaic, Orphic, and Hesiodic cosmogony, for instance, have put a very different spin on the Female. The patriarchal revision of the Great Goddess and her consort (Eve and the serpent) are overly familiar, while the Orphic version makes the feminine contribution one-remove distant, when a male creator-god (Phanes) results from the splitting the "world-egg" by Khronos and Ananke, and the world-egg formed of Gaia and Ouranos. With Hesiod, the feminine is still discernible, but merely as the vaginal "gap" of Chaos.
So I see no value in this section, except that it covers some of the first events. The author had the sequence wrong, leaving out the creation of Tartaros before Eros, but I made that change as an uncontroversial addition. That part of the text being kept, I really don't see what the rest has to do with the Theogony, even as a contrast. I'd delete it.
Fifth, though this is kind of non sequitur in a Hesiod article, I'm not sure the sequence of Orphic creation provided by the author is correct. Specifically, I'm not certain why Aither or Chaos are being mentioned in regard to the world-egg or Phanes' creation.  Just one more reason to delete this section as irrelevant.
Talastra (talk) 01:54, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  RE: Creation of the world-mythical cosmogonies 

message: I moved manuscripts section from Hesiod to here, though the section has problems. McCronion (talk) 02:07, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  manuscripts 

message: "...and his power is necessary to get the job of birth." What does this mean? rowley (talk) 20:00, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made it less gibberish, but the section needs to be based upon reliable sources.  West's survey of Theogonic literature in his commentary doesn't bother with Mummu.  I don't own his East Face of Helicon or Walcott's Hesiod and the Near East, but these are the sorts of works that should inform this section, not the addition of parallels adduced by editors of online sources. — [dave] cardiff | chestnut —  20:17, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mummu? 

message: I know google translate probably isn't the best source for this kind of thing (well, it's actually quite good).  nonetheless, I put the greek word for Theogony into it & had a listen. I must admit, the voiced velar stop (g) sounds a bit more like a voiceless velar nasal (ŋ̊) (voiced if you count the Ohs on either side). Lostubes (talk) 02:34, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I listened to it too and as a Greek I must say the pronunciation is 100% correct.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.219.45.174 (talk) 05:54, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  pronunciation  

message: The image at the top of the page is not from Hesiod's Theogony, it's from his Works and Days, of which the first line is Mοῦσαι Πιερίηθεν ἀοιδῇσιν κλείουσαι  which can be seen on the first line of the manuscript.  Should it be removed? ---- Brian.Bakkala (talk)
:I agree, and yes it should be removed. Paul August ☎ 16:21, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manuscript Image 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I propose to change the present title of this article from "Theogony" to "The Theogony (Hesiod)". The reason is that theogony is a general term to be used for a genealogy of the gods, of which that from Hesiod is but one, even if it is the most important.--Auró (talk) 20:07, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:PRIMARY TOPIC. If someone searches for "Theogony," the person is almost certainly searching for the poem by Hesiod. The name may have other applications, but all those applications are clearly secondary to the Hesiodic poem. If you want, you can create a separate Theogony (disambiguation) page dealing with other potential uses of the term. --Katolophyromai (talk) 20:36, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

text: I agree with Katolophyromai. Paul August ☎ 22:15, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: So, I create a Theogony (Desambiguation) page containing two elements. The first is an explanation of the meaning of the term "Theogony", the second is a link to "The Theogony (Hesiod)". Is it this what  Katolophyromai proposes?--Auró (talk) 22:37, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not proposing anything; I am just saying that you can do that if you think it is necessary. If you think it is necessary to create another article about an alternative use of the word "Theogony" you can do that also. Really, my main point that I was trying to make is that the title of this article should remain the same as it is right now. Whatever you decide to do regarding other possible uses of the word is your decision and I do not really have much of an opinion on the matter. --Katolophyromai (talk) 23:51, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

text: Unless you plan on writing an article about the general term, there is no reason to  have a disambiguation page, since the purpose of such a page is to disambiguate bewtween multiple articles. Paul August ☎ 01:29, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: Could you please explain why in this edit, you broke up a perfectly good paragraph, into eight separate sentences? This makes no sense at all. Paul August ☎ 02:14, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur with ; the paragraph format was better, in my view. I too am puzzled why ICE77 has broken it up. --Katolophyromai (talk) 02:37, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section "Children of Zeus and his seven wives" 

message: recently placed the following template in the section on the "Succession Myth":
 Could you please give examples?
Paul August ☎ 12:41, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the tag, per above discussion. But I think there are still a few problems, like dropping (Sky) behind Uranus and expecting layman readers to know that doing so indicates that Uranos literally means "sky", but in a personified way. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 15:24, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Story template?

message: see relatedcpicture and corresponding title.
saturn = chronos? 94.208.121.220 (talk) 12:11, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: In Greek mythology the sky-god Uranus was castrated by his Titan son Cronus (not Chronus, the Greek god of time!). The equivalent god to Cronus, in Roman mythology is Saturn. However, for some reason, the painting was titled  The Mutilation of Uranus by Saturn, confusingly using the Greek name for father sky-god ("Uranus") and the Roman name for his son ("Saturn"). Paul August ☎ 13:20, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  mutulation of uranus by chronos or by saturn? 

message: Therefore, "theogony" linking here is wrong. Arminden (talk) 14:13, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Well yes provided there were somewhere else to link to, but at present there isn't (yet?). Paul August ☎ 18:25, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

text: It might make sense to have a separate page for the theogonic form more broadly, though I think Hesiod's Theogony would still be the primary topic, and since we can't have "theogony" and "Theogony" going to different locations, "theogony" would still redirect here. Though maybe you're suggesting that the work by Hesiod shouldn't be the primary topic? – Michael Aurel (talk) 00:08, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Common noun, not just 1 specific poem