Talk:Antonio Margarito

message: All the references to and all the External links to this Article, say that Margarito is Mexican. To obtain a Mexican citizenship is very simple if both your Parents are Mexican, All you need is a valid id of any nation your from & copies of both parents birth certifacates. Almost every Mexican American Boxers does due this to get Huge Tax Breaks when they fight in Mexico. Yet Margarito is different because he's married to a Mexican, has lived his entire life in Tijuana. That's why no one can produce any valid Source to prove that Antonio is any thing But Mexican. In the Lead of this Article I think we can all agree that it's fine to leave Mexican American since he holds citizenship in both countries. But he's better known as a Mexican, Please feel free to Show Some Source so we can all discuss this further.--Polvo (talk) 23:44, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Your words, "That's why no one can produce any valid Source to prove that Antonio is any thing But Mexican." Here you go,  and I quote, "And even after Margarito, a U.S. citizen with an American passport, changes his address, that's likely to remain the same." That's the LATIMES, please PROVE that he is a Mexican citizen with a reference to him obtaining citizenship or traveling on a mexican passport. Thank you. BrendanFrye (talk) 23:52, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: So why does Every single External Link have Margarito as a Mexican National. He still has his American passport but he also has Mexican citizenship. But is he known as an Mexican or a American. Check all the references to and all the External links to this Article, they almost all refer to Margarito as being Mexican.--Polvo (talk) 00:08, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

text: Because it is more profitable to be represented and sold as a Mexican fighter than an American one. This is common practice in boxing and now in MMA. Anyway,  please PROVE that he is a Mexican citizen with a reference to him obtaining citizenship or traveling on a mexican passport. Thank you.BrendanFrye (talk) 00:13, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Guess there is no talking with you. Your constant revisions have left me without the ability to assume good faith. Please stop vandalizing the article by adding unsourced and false information. BrendanFrye (talk) 00:16, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: He still has his American passport but he also STILL has his Mexican citizenship. Boxrec.com is a Very Trusted Site. Margarito holds a six week Camp in the U.S. but spend all his other time in Mexico. My argument is that Antonio is both a Mexican & American citizen but he's better known as a Mexican.--Polvo (talk) 00:42, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Please prove that he holds Mexican citizenship. I'm pretty sure that he doesn't. BrendanFrye (talk) 00:44, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources for nationality

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101019092819/http://www.mb.com.ph:80/articles/282426/margarito-sparmates-issue-warning to http://www.mb.com.ph/articles/282426/margarito-sparmates-issue-warning
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I and other editors have been unable to resolve our differences regarding how to list the nationality of Antonio Margarito (AM).  I hereby request neutral editors to take an objective look at the issue before it devolves into an all-out edit war.  
====Nature of issue====
The following facts are undisputed (I believe):
*AM was born in California, USA
*AM was raised in Mexico
*AM has lived the majority of his life in Mexico
*AM has a US passport and citizenship
*AM is listed by BoxRec and all major boxing governing bodies (WBO, WBC, IBF) as Mexican
The issue is centered around a single source, namely a January 23, 2009 article in the LA Times: "It's safer in the ring for Antonio Margarito".  In this article, it is established that AM has a US passport, but the article repeatedly refers to him as Mexican and states that AM "is 100% Mexican and he'll continue to be 100% Mexican," even after setting up residence in San Diego, California.
====Statement by ====
 (and before him ) insist that since AM was born in USA and has a US passport, AM is American and American only, demanding that other editors produce evidence of AM having a Mexican passport and/or citizenship.  AM's listing by governing bodies are deemed unworthy sources for nationality.  Dual nationality and concepts of national identity cannot be considered without producing governmental paperwork, in their view.  All efforts to present AM's nationality with any reference to Mexico have been immediately reverted, pending what I consider an unreasonable burden of proof.  AM, by all accounts, considers himself Mexican and so does every source I can find.
A smaller issue, is whether BoxRec is solid enough of a source to presume that AM moved back to Mexico, following his time in San Diego.  BoxRec is normally considered authoritative, but not good enough for Danggoshdarn, who will only recognize the LA Times article because it specifically talks about AM moving house and no profile or boxing record can supersede this article.
Thank you for your time.  Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 18:37, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Danggoshdarn, you are misintepreting that article, which is about someone who had renounced their Mexican citizenship, which was the case for every Mexican citizen who became a U.S. citizen prior to 1998. That does not pertain to Margarito at all. In fact, the reverse pertains to him: he was born in the U.S., yet from what I am reading about Mexican nationality law, if one of his parents was a Mexican national born in Mexico, then he has automatic Mexican citizenship from birth. That said, we would need proof of his parentage. Softlavender (talk) 07:38, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree hence my ¡vote.  d.g. L3X1 (distant write)
*Comment It seems there is no single-adjective solution to describing Margarito's nationality.  I'd suggest something like L3X1's proposal.  The lede should describe him as "a professional boxer who is United States born and identifies as Mexican." or something like that.  The "Personal Life" section should be retitled "Early and Personal Life" and should give the biographical details of his birth, upbringing, and residency as an adult; currently, that section seems unduly tilted towards establishing and proving that he is a US person.  --DavidK93 (talk) 19:59, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

text: "" This seems to be a misperception. The fact that a sporting authority allows an athlete to compete under a certain flag is not proof of their citizenship. See, for instance, Felix Sanchez. That said, if either of Margarito's parents was a Mexican national born in Mexico, then he has automatic Mexican citizenship from birth, according to what I have read about Mexican citizenship laws. But we would have to have proof that at least one of his parents was a Mexican national born in Mexico. Softlavender (talk) 07:27, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

text: We cannot state that someone has dual citizenship without reliable proof of that. His ethnicity may be Mexican, but unless he has Mexican citizenship we cannot state that. Softlavender (talk) 06:58, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

text: Let's be clear that I've just posted at your talk page clarifying why I (mistakenly) made my edit. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:40, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Both words. "Mexican American". That was the closing suggestion, supported by Softlavender, Mac Dreamstate, and Danggoshdarn, who seemed to be on opposite sides of the question originally, has marginally more support than "American who self identifies as Mexican", and is noticeably shorter, all good reasons. "Mexican and American" would probably also work, but didn't get as much support. However, that's secondary, the main point of the consensus was that he should not be referred to as simply one or the other, since we have noticeable sources that back up each. If you really want, you can have a separate discussion about whether or not to use the " and " or the "-" forms, but that's really splitting hairs (and hopefully would find a different person to close!). Until such a discussion, if there is a dispute, let's leave it as "Mexican American". --GRuban (talk) 17:38, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure why Mexican American was removed from info box now. Before the rfc it was just a back and forth between having one or the other in, after the rfc closed both were added in, why are we removing it now? WikiVirusC (talk) 17:51, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I can explain what at least triggered that. I'm convinced I've seen some WP:BLP-related guideline which discourages "[Nationality]-[Nationality]" from infobox fields, and to use line breaks or  instead; lead sections working in a different way. So I was just going on that, albeit from a hazy notion. User:Danggoshdarn then took exception, probably thinking I was taking liberties or editing in bad faith, and zapped the field completely. I don't have a problem with that, either—the nationality field for Carl Frampton has been omitted for ages now, due to so many drive-by edits listing him as Irish, Northern Irish, or British. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:48, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see, I just didn't understand the wording of the edit comment (As the nationality changed from Mexican American to both Mexican and American...). It just threw me off since the decision of the rfc was to make it Mexican American, and "both Mexican and American" is just another way to say it. WikiVirusC (talk) 19:56, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fine with leaving it as Mexican American like I said before and WE ALL AGREED ON.  However it was changed within the first 24 hours of the closing of the RFC, just like I said it would be. Give it another week or two and American will get deleted and it will just say Mexican. Also, "Mexican American" and "Mexican and American" are two completely different things. I don't understand how people can't grasp that. Danggoshdarn (talk) 00:33, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Comment about Antonio Margarito's nationality 

message: (and before him ) insist that since AM was born in USA and has a US passport, AM is American and American only, demanding that other editors produce evidence of AM having a Mexican passport and/or citizenship.  AM's listing by governing bodies are deemed unworthy sources for nationality.  Dual nationality and concepts of national identity cannot be considered without producing governmental paperwork, in their view.  All efforts to present AM's nationality with any reference to Mexico have been immediately reverted, pending what I consider an unreasonable burden of proof.  AM, by all accounts, considers himself Mexican and so does every source I can find.
A smaller issue, is whether BoxRec is solid enough of a source to presume that AM moved back to Mexico, following his time in San Diego.  BoxRec is normally considered authoritative, but not good enough for Danggoshdarn, who will only recognize the LA Times article because it specifically talks about AM moving house and no profile or boxing record can supersede this article.
Thank you for your time.  Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 18:37, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Danggoshdarn, you are misintepreting that article, which is about someone who had renounced their Mexican citizenship, which was the case for every Mexican citizen who became a U.S. citizen prior to 1998. That does not pertain to Margarito at all. In fact, the reverse pertains to him: he was born in the U.S., yet from what I am reading about Mexican nationality law, if one of his parents was a Mexican national born in Mexico, then he has automatic Mexican citizenship from birth. That said, we would need proof of his parentage. Softlavender (talk) 07:38, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree hence my ¡vote.  d.g. L3X1 (distant write)
*Comment It seems there is no single-adjective solution to describing Margarito's nationality.  I'd suggest something like L3X1's proposal.  The lede should describe him as "a professional boxer who is United States born and identifies as Mexican." or something like that.  The "Personal Life" section should be retitled "Early and Personal Life" and should give the biographical details of his birth, upbringing, and residency as an adult; currently, that section seems unduly tilted towards establishing and proving that he is a US person.  --DavidK93 (talk) 19:59, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

text: "" This seems to be a misperception. The fact that a sporting authority allows an athlete to compete under a certain flag is not proof of their citizenship. See, for instance, Felix Sanchez. That said, if either of Margarito's parents was a Mexican national born in Mexico, then he has automatic Mexican citizenship from birth, according to what I have read about Mexican citizenship laws. But we would have to have proof that at least one of his parents was a Mexican national born in Mexico. Softlavender (talk) 07:27, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

text: We cannot state that someone has dual citizenship without reliable proof of that. His ethnicity may be Mexican, but unless he has Mexican citizenship we cannot state that. Softlavender (talk) 06:58, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

text: Let's be clear that I've just posted at your talk page clarifying why I (mistakenly) made my edit. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:40, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Both words. "Mexican American". That was the closing suggestion, supported by Softlavender, Mac Dreamstate, and Danggoshdarn, who seemed to be on opposite sides of the question originally, has marginally more support than "American who self identifies as Mexican", and is noticeably shorter, all good reasons. "Mexican and American" would probably also work, but didn't get as much support. However, that's secondary, the main point of the consensus was that he should not be referred to as simply one or the other, since we have noticeable sources that back up each. If you really want, you can have a separate discussion about whether or not to use the " and " or the "-" forms, but that's really splitting hairs (and hopefully would find a different person to close!). Until such a discussion, if there is a dispute, let's leave it as "Mexican American". --GRuban (talk) 17:38, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure why Mexican American was removed from info box now. Before the rfc it was just a back and forth between having one or the other in, after the rfc closed both were added in, why are we removing it now? WikiVirusC (talk) 17:51, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I can explain what at least triggered that. I'm convinced I've seen some WP:BLP-related guideline which discourages "[Nationality]-[Nationality]" from infobox fields, and to use line breaks or  instead; lead sections working in a different way. So I was just going on that, albeit from a hazy notion. User:Danggoshdarn then took exception, probably thinking I was taking liberties or editing in bad faith, and zapped the field completely. I don't have a problem with that, either—the nationality field for Carl Frampton has been omitted for ages now, due to so many drive-by edits listing him as Irish, Northern Irish, or British. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:48, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see, I just didn't understand the wording of the edit comment (As the nationality changed from Mexican American to both Mexican and American...). It just threw me off since the decision of the rfc was to make it Mexican American, and "both Mexican and American" is just another way to say it. WikiVirusC (talk) 19:56, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fine with leaving it as Mexican American like I said before and WE ALL AGREED ON.  However it was changed within the first 24 hours of the closing of the RFC, just like I said it would be. Give it another week or two and American will get deleted and it will just say Mexican. Also, "Mexican American" and "Mexican and American" are two completely different things. I don't understand how people can't grasp that. Danggoshdarn (talk) 00:33, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Statement by {{User|SVTCobra}}

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thread_title:  External links modified