Talk:Ramanathan Krishnan

message: "He was at one point ranked the World No. 3 amateur[citation needed] player – the highest ranking ever achieved by a tennis player from Asia."
Michael Chang was #2. Shall I change it?
(Neosystems (talk) 19:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Michael Chang is not from Asia, he's a born and bred American. His parents originally came from Asia, but Michael Chang himself is not from Asia. Zaxem (talk) 18:21, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Emerson's statement that he was not an amateur but a contract professional with the Australian Lawn Tennis Association should be taken seriously, because he meant it seriously. He did not consider himself an amateur player, but a registered professional who was awarded prize money.Tennisedu (talk) 21:10, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, here is the Wikidefinition of "shamateurism", "Shamateurism: Amalgamation of 'sham' and 'amateurism', derogatory term for a custom that widely existed before the open era where an amateur player would receive financial remuneration to participate in a tournament in violation of amateur laws.[108]" First of all, this is not a technical term, but a "derogatory" term. There should be no place in serious discussion for "derogatory" or slang terms, which carry no informational content. Secondly, non-contractual payments to players were not a violation of amateur tennis rules. They were not even taxable as earned income. So the slang derogatory term is completely misplaced here. Thirdly, there is no contemporary discussion of "shamateurism" in the newspapers that I can see. In the Australian newspapers, Emerson stated that he was not an amateur. The American tennis authorities apparently took a different view, for example, Arthur Ashe did not have designated pro status, all American Davis Cup players had to be strictly amateur. The American authorities could supposedly have allowed designated pro status for their players.Tennisedu (talk) 21:31, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia does not list shamateurs as professionals as you well know.  What you originally wrote there was completely inaccurate, as you named Krishnan.  The source you then added contains a quote from Emerson.  The article states after the Emerson quote: "What is tendered as amateur tennis is still there, an entity, and Roy Emerson is the king of it".  Wikipedia player articles don't have title headings saying Professional career and then list player's amateur tournaments.  If you really think that shamateurs should be listed as professionals, then I suggest you post an RfC on the tennis project page, but frankly I think this idea is absolutely laughable. Tennishistory1877 (talk) 21:46, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a definition of non-contractual payments, using a British context.https://www.cavendishlaw.co.uk/employees/ex-gratia-payments.html "An ex gratia payment is a sum of money paid to an employee by an employer in a situation where the employer is not obligated to do so. Ex gratia payments are, therefore, gestures of goodwill on behalf of the employer. Such a payment is also referred to as a golden handshake." This is how the old "amateur" tour worked, and worked well in the 1960's, when the top "amateurs" such as Emerson (who called himself a professional) and Santana made more money than their pro counterparts. There were also up-front payments for living expenses and travel, usually provided by the national tennis associations, who held the contracts of the "amateur" professional tennis players. By the way, Tom Okker is usually referred to as an "amateur" player in 1968, when he won the first prize money at the U.S. Open, and you often see the Davis Cup referred to as an "amateur" competition only from 1968 to 1972...this was not the truth at all.Tennisedu (talk) 21:51, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Stop wasting my time and post an RfC on the tennis project page if you think you can change the way wikipedia lists amateur tournaments. I should also point out that tennis encyclopedias, tennis history books, official websites etc. all list amateur tournaments (whether shamateur payments occurred or not) as amateur tournaments. Tennishistory1877 (talk) 21:56, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

text: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tennis Here is the Tennis Project Talk Page.  The changes that you are proposing on this page have wide-ranging implications and require a consensus from tennis editors who edit across the spectrum of tennis history. Tennishistory1877 (talk) 22:01, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

text: Read my points above...Okker still an amateur in 1968? Complete nonsense, no one should believe that. The Davis Cup an amateur competition from 1968 to 1972? Again, total contradiction to the facts. You are trying to deny reality, which is a fruitless exercise. I have no interest in denying the facts, it is time for you to show some real research on this issue. Wikipedia policies on these issues will obviously follow in due course, for now you need to do more research.Tennisedu (talk) 22:05, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Stop verbally abusing me on this thread and post a proposal on the tennis project page. This is my last word on this thread. Tennishistory1877 (talk) 22:11, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

text: No one is verbally abusing you, but I would appreciate it if you would stop following me around to different articles, which is against Wikipedia rules.Tennisedu (talk) 00:09, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Registered Professional designation