Talk:Kenneth Lay

message: A curriculum vitae should contain only positive events that enhance someone's possibility of securing a new job. There are entries in Lay's "C.V." that clearly go against the definition. Perhaps change the title to "biographical timeline" or remove the negative events. 67.80.122.91 16:51, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Career history

message: This article needs to be expanded, a lot of the negative things are being deleted because they're not sourced. --Awiseman 15:55, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expand 

message: Lay's relationship to the President and to Republican campaign finance is well-established, as is Bush's 'Kenny Boy' nickname. This is highly encyclopedic material. Please don't delete. Sandover 22:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bush relationship 

message: Is this still a current event?  The verdict is in, nothing is happening til sentencing, at which point the article will need a small update.  Some of the article background still needs to be filled in, but that's about documenting events of the past, not current happenings.  Maybe the current event tag should be removed.  Phr (talk) 19:07, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  current event tag 

message: There is currently a dispute over the following trivia item:
* Lay recruited fellow Beta Theta Pi fraternity brother Jeffrey Skilling to work at Enron.
Rather than continue to edit war, let's discuss the item here and try to come to some sort of consensus. -- MisterHand 15:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beta Theta Pi dispute 

message: Does "2006: Died from a heart attack" really need to be listed under career highlights?  His death is referenced twice already in the article. Nick22aku 16:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Career highlights 

message: [Comment removed by GChriss 22:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who Wrote This?

message: Allen Wastler wrote a comentary about the front page article for the NY Post, "Before they put Cheato Lay's coffin in the grave, check he's in it."  He states that people should not worry about this but worry about how Ken Lay's family is sufferring.  He labels conspiracy theorists as "fringe."  Nevertheless, what this "conspiracy theory" shows is how little faith people have in the far right.  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me. - to almost quote George W. Bush.
Should we start a section on consipracy theories in the article?
BmikeSci 00:19, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Has anyone from Eron spoken about how sad they are over the death of J. Clifford Baxter?  Here's an interesting link re: his "suicide:"
http://www.hereinreality.com/autopsy.html
Here's a CBS news article too:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/10/eveningnews/main505845.shtml
BMIKESCI
BMIKESCI
I wouldn't mind more discussion in the article on conspiracy theories.  I note that, because Lay died at such a convenient time - i.e. while his appeal was pending, his conviction was vacated, which inhibited any confiscation of his ill-gotten assets and prevented punitive damages.  In other words, the convenient timing of Ken's death meant a much bigger inheritance by his grieving widow. A difference of more than $20Million.  If Ken had lived, his appeal would surely have failed, he'd go to prison far aaway and Mrs. Lay would have been living in one very modest apartment.  For people without a conscience, it's a no-brainer. Sussmanbern (talk) 18:38, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

text: It is too early too add a section on the conspiracy theories.  Instead the dust should be allowed to settle and only then should a determination be made.  It is possible that Ken Lay will become like Elvis with reports that he is still living in far flung tropical regions for decades to come.  It is even more likely that the whole field of speculation will soon be dropped entirely by all but the more extreme fringes of society.  Until we known which way things shake out there is nothing to be written without resorting to original research. --Allen3 talk 17:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dust? Allowed to settle? Shake out? I understand he is/was to be cremated. I like your highly appropriate plays on words. :) Wahkeenah 04:36, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conspiracy Theories

message: Lay may have been seriously ill, and he may have been told that, if he died, the conviction would be erased.  We cannot overlook the possibility that he put two and two together and decided to hasten his own death.
The existing article contains a very naive comment.  At one point, it discounts the possibility of a certain illness because it was never disclosed.  Wake up, author!  This Texas crook was convicted of lying and defrauding people.  Merely because something was not disclosed does not mean it is false!
130.13.2.104 11:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: If Not Heart Attack, Suicide is Most Probable

message: People say stupid things on talk pages from time to time, particularly on newsworthy topics.  I don't see that protection for this talk page is warranted and I think it should be removed.  Also, at least some of the comments removed by ⟳ausa کui were borderline relevant to discussion of the article content. --Saforrest 19:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection? 

message: I'd like to wikilink the word "abated" in the "death" section to the Abatement in pleading article, but the target article doesn't seem complete.  Is it?  Would it be a proper wikilink?  mdf 20:42, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abatement in pleading 

message: Does anyone know if Bush returned to Enron employees and investors any of the monies donated to his campaign by Ken Lay?
BmikeSci 22:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bush campaign Contributions

message: Huh.  "discussion page".
"talk page".
"comment page".
But, if someone has any disagreement w/ punctuation, &/or content, the comments get ditched.
&, no locatable disability-access policy,
nor disability-access discussion.
Something about "don't bite newcomers", that is typically ignored.
&, vast racism.  weaklypedia.
So little consistency, except its lack.
One of thousands of problems:
"Edit conflict".
Hopiakuta 22:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a point? Is there some grammatical error you'd lke changed?  --  Zanimum
I saw Ken Lay last week on 39th in Times Square :) - gangalee
*Yeh, he was there trying to convince Elvis to invest in his latest stock scheme. Wahkeenah 16:49, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Huh

message: Restoring.  Sheesh.  Re cite: http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/25/news/newsmakers/enron_verdict/index.htm .  The guy was found guilty of fraud and conspiracy on 14 counts in two separate trials.  While there's this possible situation of an upcoming abatement (that hasn't actually happened yet as far as I can tell), the article does an adequate job of explaining it. Phr (talk) 15:16, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  criminal and fraudster categories 

message: Another guy (corrupt politician) who died (of a self-inflicted gunshot wound on TV) after the jury verdict but before sentencing, therefore getting to keep his govt pension for his household.  I wonder if there's a tasteful way to mention this in the article. Phr (talk) 13:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Budd Dwyer]] 

message: The Houston memorial service was reported in an AP article on the Houston Chronicle's website on July 12, 2006:
"Houston memorial today for Enron's Ken Lay", by Kristen Hays, Associated Press 
I'm a newbie at Wikipedia editing so rather than bollix it up I'll just leave the link here so somebody else can verify and insert it...
BTW, my wife and I are absolutely convinced this guy is laughing his ass off somewhere in the Caribbean.  I mean, how d*mned convenient to drop dead, just then and there!  With friends like his, and their track record, they could easily arrange it.  Oh, and this morning, NPR reported that, since his conviction has been "abated" (is that the word?), now the government will have to REPROVE the criminal source of the $90 million if they want it back.  Hey, I want his job...
--Chethcoat 20:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Responding to the need for a citation about the Houston memorial service for Ken Lay 

message: "World Bank treasurer, Kenneth Lay..."   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.142.141.195 (talk) 20:55, August 30, 2007 (UTC) 
:He's also mentioned here, with a photo, as Kenneth G. Lay. Perhaps if he becomes notable there will have to be a disambiguation page. I wonder if he has always called himself Kenneth G. Lay, or whether he adopted the G. quite recently. -Ashley Pomeroy 17:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  World Bank treasurer has same name 

message: The removal of this section comes on three main points. This man scammed millions from unsuspecting families, I'd bet that more than half of those awards would be taken back if possible.  The removal of this section has been attempted in several instances (see article history).  Pickup any Worldbook, or any other reference and they do not list awards for convicted criminals (or formerly convicted to be politically correct), why should wikipedia? Charles Manson won a spelling bee in the third grade should that be listed? This is supposed to be NPOV, listing totally irrelevant facts that portray this monster (language not used in the article) in a good light should NOT be done.  We can write page after page about how messed up this guy is but, taking out the irreverent facts is much easier, so if you want to list these awards then you should also put in a section about how he is a "monster" to make it neutral (as both are irreverent).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.123.239.239 (talk) 08:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of people's opinions of the man, he received the awards. To remove them because he's a "monster" is completely POV. The fact is that he received the awards, so they are completely relevant in the article. If an individual award is not notable then it can be removed, same if the award has been "taken back" as you put it. Your removal of the awards is completely POV; lets deal with facts rather then attempting to portray Lay one way or another. - Shudde talk 23:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that calling him a "monster" or "scum" (which you apparently tried to put into the article space) shouldn't even be discussed in the talk space.  To the point:  other people have awards sections, but they're not usually this long.  This section seems too much like chest thumping, especially when there are no sources.  I really think we should remove some of the awards (per verifiability), but I'm not sure to what degree.  ~a (user • talk • contribs) 23:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awards 

message: Some people seem to thin we should not point out that some claim he is still alive. But this is not some bloke down the pub This is a major business man who made billions of pounds and was suspected of fraud. The conspiracy theories are serious theories not stories about aliens. It is important wikipedia notes that this is a serious theory.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wootuber (talk • contribs) 14:02, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see Wikipedia:Fringe theories for current information about inclusion of conspiracy theories and other claims from outside the mainstream.  The most important part of the guideline is that reliable sources must be produced to provide verification that theory represents a significant point of view.  If no independent sources are available to document the existence of the theory, then it is not appropriate to utilize Wikipedia as a means to promote the existence of a theory. --Allen3 talk 14:12, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: How is the ontology of a 'significant point of view' determined?--Phiborjam (talk) 03:57, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Let me elaborate a little. The term 'significant' is an ontological term attaching a higher value status to some thing, idea or way of being. The term 'verification' on the other hand is more of an epistemological term denoting that a given belief has a high degree of justification for being true. It seems more appropriate in this case to restrict the belief that "Ken Lay is alive" as one where the question is primarily an epistemological one rather than an ontological one. After all we are not debating here questions about what it means to be alive or dead or what is the nature of life itself. Rather, we have a simple premise,'Ken Lay is alive', which is either true or false.--Phiborjam (talk) 10:08, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "is he dead theories" should be on the page 

message: The article claims he had 2 children and 12 grandchildren. This can't be right. Did each of his two children have 6 children? Huffmer (talk) 06:32, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: 2 children and 12(!) grandchildren??

message: WOW, this is a seriously harsh article. Corporate greed has always existed. Hitler has a nicer article.  What ever group of people are controlling this article should take a break and someone should come in and remove some of the hate.Mantion (talk) 01:26, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harsh 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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