Talk:Abraham ben Abraham

message: Reb Shlomo Carlebach tells the story of Graf Potocki in the book "lmaa'n acheu v'rei" by moshe david cohen, page 252. could anyone could read it there and check if the article needs any change (the book is in hebrew)?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.139.175.145 (talk) 19:48, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reb Shlomo

message: I believe this article should be moved to Walentyn Potocki. Abraham ben Abraham is a very common name (lots of different people on google hits), thus deserving a disambig page, as it is in fact the most common name for converts to Judaism (Abraham, common first name, son of Abraham, surname given to all who didn't have Jewish parents). Female equivalent would be Sarah Imenu Sarah. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 11:18, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope to respond soon to this, but, briefly, while a move may be in order, we should certainly keep the redirect from "AbA." HKT 21:40, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

text: The most common English name for him is "Valentine Potocki", followed by "Valentin Potocki".  Walentyn Potocki is his Polish name, and would be appropriate for Polish Wikipedia.  As for a girl, the female equivalent would be "Sarah bas Sarah Imenu", or "Sarah bas Sarah". Jayjg (talk) 22:10, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, chose what you think is best. I am now thinking that it should be sth along the lines of story of Abraham ben Abraham or Apocrypha of Valentine Potocki. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:56, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that would be assuming a POV. You could argue that the article on Jesus should be entitled Apocrypha of Jesus.  Even articles on clearly mythical people like Paul Bunyan don't have those kinds of names. Jayjg (talk) 23:05, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Touche. I stand corrected on this issue :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:40, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

text: By the way, Abraham ben Abraham is probably not the most common name for a convert. Despite Abraham being a common name (perhaps 1% (generously speaking) of all Jews go by that name), the most notable Abraham ben Abraham is Potocki. On a google search (if I recall correctly from a search I entered last week), the only references (among the first ten hits) to a specific person refer to Potocki. I think about half referred to Potocki and half to an example of what a convert's name might be. Additionally, many converts might not choose the name Abraham just to avoid the repetition! I'm unaware of any other notable "AbA"s, but maybe some will pop up in the future. As of now, I don't think a disambig page would be necessary. HKT 23:39, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, my search shows 4 non-Potocki hits on the first page (10 total). While Potocki is definetly THE most known AbA, he has no monopoly. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:44, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. And Al Gore doesn't have a monopoly on that common name, but I'm unaware of any disambig page on it. In fact, I know of another Al Gore who is a character in E.B. White's The Trumpet of the Swan. Really! HKT 05:27, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Well, I even know a person named Al Gore personally :) Halibutt 11:23, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
I'm not that familiar with the Wikipedia guidelines. Shouldn't the name listed be "Avraham ben Avraham", not "Abraham ben Abraham"? Given that you are using the Hebrew version of his name, as shown by the "ben" (son of), it makes sense to use the Hebrew pronunciation - rather than a partial equivalent name that no one ever actually uses. And which sounds weird. Like, I could see that an article about Moses should be named Moses, not Moshe (the Hebrew version), but if you were going to include his father's name, I don't think you would change it from Moshe ben Amram to Moses ben Amram. The reason the full name AbA is used at all is that he is very frequently referred to that way. We should just call him what he is called. Others? MikeR613 (talk) 16:42, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

text: Changed the text; don't know how to change the title? MikeR613 (talk) 17:21, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: To move the article, please use WP:RM. Please provide sources that the v spelling is more common and correct than the modern common-name spelling with b. Also ping User:Icehwiz, maybe you can comment more on the correct spelling? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:51, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see the reason for a source on this, Avraham is the Hebrew pronunciation of Abraham. No one ever called him Abraham ben Abraham; all of the Hebrew sources will call him by the Hebrew name. I don't know what the Polish sources called him. It just makes sense to use his actual name rather than a "translation". MikeR613 (talk) 03:59, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Move

message: When is his birth/death year, date, place? --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 15:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth/death year, date, place 

message: Update: I've emailed professor Leiman and asked him to comment on the existence of AbA.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  00:43, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It has been more than two weeks. Any response? HKTTalk 17:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, it seems it has been ignored. I will post my email below; if anybody else would like to send an updated version, it may serve as a template.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  23:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Email

message: All academic sources (Tazbir, Moskwa, Teter, as well as Miknys cited by Moskwa) agree he did not exist. Thus the category nonexistent people is relevant here. This is not a disputed fact, he is not like Jesus or Moses (for example), whom many scholars concede might have existed - here we have an individual which the scholars agree did not exist.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  18:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Per NPOV's undue weight clause and the consensus of academics the category should be included. JoshuaZ (talk) 18:16, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Leiman and Prouser don't think he's "nonexistent". Jayjg (talk) 00:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: They are however neither historians nor scholars in general, they are religious leaders and writers, thus much less reliable. The article does mention that he existed according to a religious tradition, so their POV is presented. It is a bit similar to evolution vs intelligent design, that there are different views does not make them equal (hence, despite there being religious readers and writers arguing for intelligent design, it is categorized as "pseudoscience" and evolution is not).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  04:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Leiman is Professor of Jewish History and Literature and Chairman of the Department of Judaic Studies at Brooklyn College. That means he's a "historian or scholar", not a religious leader. Jayjg (talk) 00:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you point me to the publication where Leiman disagrees with the scholars who argue that AbA did not exist and asserts his existence? We have several scholars cited who specifically examine the historical evidence and conclude that the story is false. That we have several others who assume "on faith" that the story is true and discuss it does not invalidate the detailed research done by those who concluded he does not exist (as Teter notes, there are writers who see the story of Potocki as fact and cite sources - such as Kraszewski's book - as evidence of its existence); this is for example what Prousner did, he later quotes later sources plus the 1766 book cited (invented?) by Kraszewski). But that evidence has been question by others, who have concluded it is false. In other words, the story is notable, but the subject is fictional. If you disagree, please quote a modern, academic publication that specifically disputes the other academic's claims about his nonexistence and asserts his existence.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  00:30, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dr. Leiman's talk on the AbA is available for free online here As far as I can tell he has never published anything on the subject, although it is clear from the talk that he had done substantial original research.  Dr. Leiman is a pretty well known historian particularly in the area of the Emden-Eibeschuetz controversy of 18th Century European Jewry.Conceptualinertia (talk) 15:12, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

text: BTW, I did a little research into the 1766 book, and it clearly exists. I also found the full Hebrew text online. The book is not a historical chronicle, but I did find the execution of a Rabbi Mann mentioned tangentially. I didn't read most of the book, but basic searching did not yield the name Potocki or AbA. This book does not seem to be the source of Kraszewski's account. HKTTalk 18:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you give us the link to its online version (it is of course in public domain due to age)? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  23:42, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is the link. It is a retyped .doc file, rather than a .pdf scan. It is in the original Hebrew. HKTTalk 23:46, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

text: I think this is convincing: the 1766 book is not the source for Kraszewski's story. But it doesn't make sense to use that to disprove Kraszewski's story, since he didn't say it was the source; he just said he had one. Someone else made a wrong guess. MikeR613 (talk) 14:53, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

text: As others have pointed out, Leiman is a perfectly good academic source. I'd add that I listened to his lecture, and he clearly has a lot of details that the Polish historians did not know. Completely convincing. And that lecture is from before he knew about the Yaakov Emden primary source. MikeR613 (talk) 14:55, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Category:Nonexistent people

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