Talk:Jack Vance/Archive 1

message: IIRC Vance was in the merchant marine for some time, I always wondered if his descriptions were in part based on places that he had been or situations in world politics of which he had heard, although his worlds seem fairly detached from Earth on the whole I sometimes felt that his descriptions of alien cultures had some similarity to east asian or african cultures???
REPLY TO QUESTION ABOVE: A good example of how exotic places visited in Vance's life (esp. South Pacific islands) influenced his protrayal of the Gaean Reach and Alastor Cluster can be seen in his mystery novel The Deadly Isles (1969), which is set in Tahiti. I believe he used the name John Holbrook Vance in this one.  As to his utilization of situations in world politics:  See "The Brains of Earth," a wicked  satire on the Cold War. Also see "The Gray Prince," which appears to be inspired in part by racial problems in the United States, Southern Africa and elsewhere, including in Vance's own Oakland, Cal. (The complex quasi-villain in this novel bears a certain resemblance to the late Oakland Black Panther leader Huey P. Newton.) The ending of "The Gray Prince" will be especially amusing to anyone who has ever been involved in Native American tribal rights issues or has ever observed the bottomless pit of ethnic rivalries in the Balkans.
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Re: The Gray Prince. It's believed that events occuring in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) directly influenced Vance. Of course, it's not discounting anything else postulated here. Peter1968 09:59, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Merchant Marine

message: The article says he is still writing with special software.  I regret to say that our mutual friend David M. Alexander told me a few weeks ago after a visit to Jack's that Jack declared that he no longer could/would write.  That he had now done everything he could.... I dunno if this could/should be worked into the article.  Of if the article should be slightly amended about his current status. Hayford Peirce 18:08, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is certainly worth noting that he has retired from writing, but a more permanent (e.g. printed or electronic) reference would be nice. Have Vance and/or Alexander made this fact public in some way? Ahasuerus 18:22, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope.  It was over-dinner talk.  I ran into this problem in the Heinlein article when I put in that RAH had told me that "Moon Is a Harsh Mistress" was his best book.  There was then all sorts of hoo-hah about "original research."  I fought it for a while, but finally gave up.  I've been thinking about that lately.  Suppose I got an email, or a phone call, from Jack, in which he said, let's say: "'The Blue World'" is my best book."  Is that "original research"?  Jack's still alive; he could, I suppose, verify what he said.  The Heinlein fuss made me so grouchy about City Hall that I took a Wikivacation of about 6 months.... Hayford Peirce 18:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, it's a well known and rather thorny problem. Sometimes all we have to go on is what some historians rather dismissively call "the oral tradition". Back when most Soviet/Chinese/East European archives were closed and much of what we thought we knew about Communist history had come from refugees, defectors, etc, it was a particularly controversial subject in some circles. Anyway, some writers (like Jack Williamson), once they decide to retire, make public statements to the effect that they have "no current plans to continue writing novels/stories/at all". If Vance could do something similar, it might help his many fans adjust their expectations and make Wikipedia editors' life easier. Otherwise the statement would read something like "Science fiction writer Hayford Peirce claims in his blog [URL] that another science fiction writer David M. Alexander has told him that Jack Vance is done writing." Ahasuerus 22:39, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Hmmm, you've given me another perspective on the problem.  I see a little more of the other side's point of view now.  My own take on it was: "Hey, ho!  I'm probably the only guy among you characters writing about Heinlein who actually *knew* him.  You don't think it's a valuable bit of info what he *himself* thought was his best book?  I got it straight from him.  What's the difference between that and seeing it in a letter that he wrote to Bob Silverberg that Silverberg published in his Collected Letters?"  Your blog suggestion would be valid, I guess, except Dave Alexander and I (and Jack, of course) must be the only three S.F. writers in the world without blogs -- and with no intentions of starting any.  Lemme think about how we could get this info in.... In the meantime, I've found the old banjo/kazoo pic and am gonna stick it in. Hayford Peirce 22:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hayford, I share your frustration with the no-original-research protocol--there are points about Jack and his work that I evolved during the time I spent with him and Norma years back (while working on an unpublished and now for various reasons unpublishable book on his work) that can't be included here because they never got into print. I find it a little ironic that web-based factoids have an easier time being included, even though that particular data-pool is badly polluted by distortion, error buildup, and uncritically-repeated gossip. As for the matter of telling the public whether Jack is still writing, I would approach it by pointing out his age, his blindness, and how long it took Lurulu (the second half of a narrative that begins with Ports of Call) to get finished. The implication that there is unlikely to be anything more can just hang there, unexpressed but unavoidable. RLetson 17:35, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a real can of worms.  The thought experiment I always use concerns Arthur C. Clarke but it could apply equally well to Jack.  Here we have an *elderly*, esteemed, famous writer who has a long Wiki article about him.  It is unlikely that he will be around for another 20 years or so.  Suppose Mr. Clarke logged on, went to his article, and started putting in additional biographical info in a third-person, Wiki-approved style.  "Contrary to widespread belief, Clarke spent August of 1941 in a monastery in Wales instead of the RAF.  It was only on September 2nd that he was inducted."  And so forth.  Straight fact.  Wiki-acceptable.  Suppose he then writes: "In 1939, he read a book, 'How to Raise Mushrooms,' that profoundly influenced the course of his life and his writing."  Since no one else has ever written about this, it is less clear that this is Wiki-acceptable.  Then suppose that under the Literary Appraisals section of the article he writes: "As of March, 2006, Clarke believes that 'Sands of Mars' is his finest work.  And, perhaps surprisingly to many of his readers, he feels that 'The City and the Stars' is a greatly inferior book.  Moreover, he has long felt that Stanley Kubrick received far more credit for his work of '2001' than he actually deserved."  Also certainly, I gather, this would NOT be acceptable to Wiki.  Or would it?  Geez, here's The Word, straight from the Source -- Wiki isn't gonna accept it!?  If not, there's something seriously wrong here.... Hayford Peirce 20:16, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For better or for worse, Wikipedia has no way to authenticate the identity of its editors, which works fine as long as they are just compilers of otherwise recorded statements, research, etc, but almost instantly breaks down when they try to contribute privileged information that is otherwise unverifiable. For example, at one point I was editing the Wikipedia article that Bob Tucker had written about The Planetoid and I was really torn over whether to keep the privileged information. It was quite harmless and there was no reason to think that "71.113.152.181" was not Tucker's IP address, but how could one be sure? There has to be an authentication mechanism in place to thwart doppelgängers if we are to start including that kind of (admittedly, potentially valuable) data on a regular basis. Ahasuerus 23:29, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Is he still writing

message: "Weasles" certainly are mentioned in the Demon Prince books, which transpire in the "Oikumene."  But are they specifically mentioned by name in any of the Gaean Reach books?  If so, which ones? Hayford Peirce 04:37, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's "weasel"...just thought I'd point that out. :) Peter1968 10:32, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Weasels

message: I've run into you again, Hayford, and this time I also changed some of your copy (though not the substance): I found the reference to the genesis of Space Opera and amended your amendation and added a footnote. Hope I haven't stepped on your toes. My edit goes about 8 paras into the "Output" section. And I agree about weasels but don't have time to dig around right now--there's some IPCC-like activity in the Cadwal books, but I don't think it's specifically IPCC. RLetson 05:33, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe I didn't get that footnote after all--I've brute-forced the biblio reference into the text and will dope out how to do a proper note later. The data's there if anybody with better Wiki skills than mine wants to fix it. Still learning, clearly. RLetson 05:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More overlap

message: I've added a category to the Bibliography, 'Books About Vance', with four of the five volumes I physically have to hand (the omission is the early Underwood-Miller Bibliography: I could put that in also but it's comprehensively superseded by Hewett & Mallett, I believe). Anyone want to add more, they're welcome.Cenedi 12:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Print authorities

message: Added non-series novels and collections to the list and made a start on a consistent format. (Do we want chronological or alphabetical order in the sub-lists? Do we want pub dates? Book or magazine? All the VIE titles?) I also went ahead and removed the doubtful or undocumented "Gaean Reach" attributions. I hope this doesn't turn into an editing war, but I can't see asserting series connections without real, published evidence. I left (for now) the Big Planet asterisk because I can't recall not seeing some Reach allusion in Showboat World--but if no reference shows up, I'm for not making the assertion. RLetson 18:37, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bibliography rework

message: Is anyone knowledgeable enough (and willing to quote sources and give citations) to write a paragraph about Vance's influence on other writers? I think I've read a ton of stuff about this on various Web sites but I don't know if I've seen any in hard print.  For instance, I know that Silverberg, who lives practically next door to Vance, admires his works greatly.  Have I seen something years ago that said that at least the first book in the Marjipoor series was very Vancian?  And I think I've read that Jack himself felt at one point (bitterly) that "Zim-Zim" as he used to call her, had imitated his stuff outrageously -- and also made a lot more money than he had by doing so.  And, of course, we've already got 4 or 5 books in the "Emulating Vance" place.... Hayford Peirce 18:57, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bob has said that Majipoor is partly based on Big Planet: see the 1997 [Hour of the Wolf interview]. He has said the same sort of thing in other interviews as well, so this is not a hard point to nail down. RLetson 04:29, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So I thought.  The question is: will someone write a couple of paragraphs about this? (Not me!) Hayford Peirce 04:37, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vance's influence on other writers

message: I restored the asterisk designating Durdane as a Gaean Reach series. Although there are good reasons not to include "Planet of Adventure" (the main source of controversy), this does not hold true for the Durdane books, since one of the important characters is a representative of the Historical Institute from Earth.--27 May 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.222.71.16 (talk • contribs) 
:Is the Historical Institute the same organization as the [no-modifier] Institute of the Oikumene? As I recall Durdane, the H.I. is based on Earth and has an official policy of non-interference in local matters (despite their calling in the marines in the case of the asutra slaving operation). The Oikumene's Institute is dedicated to some sort of program of maintaining humanity's humanity by opposing technologies and the wrong kind of progress. I've always taken the similiar names as an example of JV's tendency to recycle such items. Are there any other clues or cues to tie Durdane into the Oikumene/Gaean future? RLetson 04:41, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There will be a full discussion of such questions in Extant #14, soon to be published. This is no proposition that Extant be linked to wikipedea, it is simply notification for those interested in this particular issue.--PaulRhoads 14:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Durdane

message: I would love to see the fussing over the importance of VIE, which-links-are-kosher, and whose-owie-is-worse put to bed so that we can get on with the task of making this into a respectable article on Jack Vance. The "Output and Characteristics" section, for example, still contains questionable material (the Huey Newton reference, and a footnote pointing to the self-published "Deserted by Mine Enemies" essay, for example), and it could also use a through-edit to make some of the prose less purple and less POV. My writing schedule for the next month or more is full, but I can fact-check, spot-edit, and cheerlead in some of my uncopious free time. Meanwhile, I suggest that we admit that the VIE exists, that Jack authorized it and its approach, and leave aside (for now at least) questions of whether it was a Good Thing or The End of Civilization As We Know It or a tempest in a chamber-pot. And that we leave this entire discussion, warts, ennui, and all, right here for an admiring world to see and be warned by.
:Hear!  Hear!  I'll second that! Hayford Peirce 21:17, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What needs done

message: If this marvellous 'VIE controversy' seems so valuble, why not a wikipedia for it? This would give the Gaean Reach gang a bridgehead in wikipedia where they can gleefully link to thier dead board and continue their vital humanitarian work of slandering the Vance familly, VIE managers and the VIE books. It will also free up this page to be what it is supposed to be, and we can get rid of some of the clutter, such as this whole section.--PaulRhoads 15:31, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A VIE controversy article doesn't seem appropriate unless there is also a VIE article, and perhaps not even then. Judging by Baphomet's comments about not being keen on seeing a lot of attention paid to the VIE, I assume he would not support that either.  So I don't think there is any support for discussion of this in any article in Wikipedia. Mike Christie 15:46, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was being somewhat fascious. WHY should 'Baphomet V' care whether or not the VIE gets more or less attention on the wikipedia Jack Vance page? As for me, it is not my problem how much or how little attention the VIE gets here. My point is that anti-VIE slander has no place.--PaulRhoads 19:45, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposition for new 'Alleged VIE Controversy' page

message: I've deleted two links from external links.  I don't believe anything else needs to be done to implement what I hope was a consensus on the discussion above, though a reference link from the VIE paragraph could be added at will.  I think we can go ahead and improve the page.  Mike Christie 22:04, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes made per this section

message: Got rid of "Vance often creates in what amounts to a throwaway paragraph a world more fully realized than many writers manage in an entire doorstop-thick volume."  Let us all now bow to Saint Vance. If I were diabetic, I'd need an injection right about now. Clarityfiend 06:22, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For what it's worth, that sentiment was echoed in a SF How-to write book edited by the SFWA back in the 70's. One of the contributing authors commented that Vance creates cultures, etc, with backhanded ease that most authors would struggle to fill a book with. So, it's not entirely the insulin/drama queen thing you seem to think it is. Peter1968 18:02, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree -- I've run across that sentiment somewhere, perhaps in more places than one.  I've been trying to run down the exact reference but haven't been able to.  If I can, I'll put the phrase (or something like it) back in.  In any case, in spite of Clarity's uncharitable remarks, there is no question but that the statement is absolutely correct.  The epigraphs in the Demon Prince books, for instance, are works of genius.  Most ordinary S.F. writers would give an arm and a leg to be able to do, after a month's brainstorming, what Jack apparently does effortlessly.... Hayford Peirce 18:10, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV removal

message: Garion96's edit of the remark about Huey Newton doesn't go far enough--absent some source, I'd say cut it. Should someone find an interview in which Jack makes the connection, fine; or if there's a critical essay that makes the case, that might be mentioned; but otherwise it looks like someone's guess. And if the point is that the political implications of Gray Prince/Domains of Koryphon has rubbed some folk the wrong way, then I say find the essays/reviews/whatever and reference them. This is just one of a number of unsourced/POV items that need to be taken care of. RLetson 05:06, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I remember telling Jack once that I had *liked* The Gray Prince, which pleased him, since apparently almost no one else had.  But he certainly didn't then say anything that connected it to Huey Newton in any way.  Although I know from other discussions that his opinion of Huey et al was not high. Hayford Peirce 18:13, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just curious. What edit about Huey Newton did I made? As far as I know I only removed a dubious fair use image on this article. But concerning sources, I agree. If there is no source, cut it. This article suffers from a lack of sources and citations anyway. See WP:Cite and Wikipedia:Verifiability and perhaps also WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought.Garion96 (talk) 15:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The dubious Huey Newton reference

message: I keep getting a file size warning whn editing this page. In accordance with the guidelines that may be found here, it's probably best we move some of these to an archive using one of the methods that page describes. Opinions? Peter1968 14:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needs new page - move to archive 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Regrettably, Mr Vance passed away on Sunday, May 26th (as per http://foreverness.jackvance.com/). Could someone a little more adept than I make the necessary changes to the article?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Merdrach (talk • contribs) 19:44, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: KTVU tonight quoted new york times magazine in their obit, which they probably found here. good work, folks, someone may wonder and read...Mercurywoodrose (talk) 05:19, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death