Talk:Juggernaut (character)

message: That's a pretty lame picture of Juggernaut. I believe it would be worth considering obtaining a better one.
Remember the Picture of the Juggernaut before this one?  Where he is on top of a car and is smashing it?  There were mountains in the backround?  Can we change it back to that one?  That one is the best pic of the Juggernaut.
: Further to this, the latest image feature just the Juggernaut in a full frontal pose. If anyone can find and source another one, fine. Just needs to be a frontal shot with no other characters. Regards Asgardian (talk) 01:10, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Naysayers should also read this  before reverting. The image of the character grappling with a beast fails as not full frontal; contorted and has another character, which are according to the Guidelines not desirable. Asgardian (talk) 01:29, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Image of Juggernaut

message: I've reverted the article to the last version before the edit war between Asgardian and David A started. From what I can see, Asgardian has simply continued to reinsert the same disputatious, non-consensus version as always, with tweaks and tucks here and there, but essentially the same material. 
I've asked admin BOZ to consider protecting the page again. Since that would be the third protection in a short period of time, I wonder if, for the sake of the article's stability and to save other editors' time, that the warring parties be blocked from editing this article for a cooldown period of three to six months, as happened with me myself and Scott Free at John Buscema. If I remember correctly, I may even have suggested it myself. -- Tenebrae (talk) 21:38, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, your edit is the issue here, and has only created problems were there were none. The article was completed and left alone for some days before this unnecessary reversion. The changes were laid out - one at a time as requested - in the Edit Summaries, and a fully formed and accurate PH was added. As was also pointed out, there is now also more detail in the Biography. There was an attempt at a blind revert for no reason, and it was prevented. So, please study the comments I made to DrBat here:  as it all still applies. The removal of valid information does not help. Please feel free, however, to add to the more complete version. Thank you. Asgardian (talk) 03:40, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

text: By the by, can we have no more emotive accusations such as "same disputatious, non-consensus version as always", as the information is all entirely valid. There is also no edit war. Just add to the extra information presented, as removing it is again, counter-productive. Thank you. Asgardian (talk) 03:43, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The Asgardian version is so disputatious, it even continues to flaunt the basic grammar of formal outlining, to which an encyclopedia should adhere. Just because an editor who disagrees with him may have taken a couple of days off for the holiday, or was concerned of running afoul of 3RR, does not give de facto permission to keep a disputed version up. There is more than ample reason than over a half-dozen editors are involved in an RFCU to rein in Asgardian's increasing anti-collaborative and contentious behavior.--Tenebrae (talk) 04:41, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Once again, and this is what outside parties will notice, I'd suggest you begin by actually helping on the article. All you have done is perform another blind revert. If you think the grammar needs work, then fix it. Demonstrate. Do not, however, delete valid information that is vital to painting a full picture of the character. Unfortunately, your action here is the increasing anti-collaborative and contentious behavior. Please, think it through. Thank you. Asgardian (talk) 04:45, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have done that. You reverted anyway. I've pointed it out in edit summaries. You've ignored it. Why do you think so many editors have signed on to an RFCU about your behavior? Because it's fun and easy for us to do? Because we get some sadistic enjoyment out of doing so? Why can't you face reality? You tell me: Why are so many editors, many of them experienced and responsible editors, doing that? In all seriousness, what do you think the reason is? -- Tenebrae (talk) 04:52, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Actually, you haven't. Try, section by section. Again, please do not revert legitimate information. What has been ignored? We would seem to have dispensed with the problematic editor, and another has been told not to make blind reverts. So, that only leaves you. Let us work this out. This can be done, yes? Re: the RFC, the "many" editors are not as experience as you might think. Asgardian (talk) 05:04, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I sincerely wish you would have answered my question: "What do you think the reason is that this RFCU exists?" Self-reflection ... that's not too much to ask for given all the time you've taken from us. -- 207.237.230.157 (talk) 01:38, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Continued edit warring

message: With my edits just now to this article, I hope to reach out to Asgardian, and demonstrate how editors can work together by giving reasons for each edit, rather than going in wholesale. I don't know whether I'll be rebuffed, but, to me, this free encyclopedia for everyone in the world is too important not to have anyone who can reasonably edit do so. During his three weeks of being blocked, I'm hopeful that I can provide things like the following without having to worry about an edit war.
Now, the version that Asgardian was reverting has its own problems, most notably a mashup of the types of the material that should be found separately in the real-world "Publication history" and in the present-tense, in-universe "Fictional character biography" (or whatever one chooses to call that section. Me, I'll go with the phrasing people spent a lot of time hashing out, with reasons for each of the three words).
I've just worked on the intro and the PH on this initial pass. The PH can sill use some injections of real-world creator names, but I wanted to keep things as simple and straightforward as possible for now.
Below, I've taken two sections of Asgardian's edits, and given each the edit that I've done today, followed by very specific reasons for each edit. I can only hope this effot helps shed some light and reduce the heat.
*Asgardian edit
Debuting in the Silver Age of comic books, the character has appeared in over four decades of Marvel publications, featuring prominently in the X-Men titles and starring in the one-shot publications Juggernaut #1 (April 1997) and Juggernaut: The Eighth Day #1 (Nov. 1999). The character has also been associated with Marvel merchandise including clothing; toys; trading cards; animated television series; video games and a feature film.
* My edit
Debuting during the period historians and fans call the Silver Age of comic books, the character has appeared in over four decades of Marvel publications, featuring prominently in the X-Men titles and starring in two one-shot solo publications. The character has also been associated with Marvel merchandise including clothing; toys; trading cards; animated television series; video games and a feature film.
* Why
The lead is a general overview; it doesn't have to get bogged down in laundry lists of specific titles, particularly of minor one-shots over a decade old.  I've also used the standard phrasing we have throughout the Project that defines "Silver Age of comic books" in context for general readers, for whom Wikipedia policy says we write.
*Asgardian edit
==Publication history==
=== Origin ===
Writer Mike Conroy stated "The characters who debuted during the early years of Marvel's mutant X-Men have been remarkably long-lived, and Cain Marko is no exception."Conroy, Mike. 500 Comicbook Villains, Collins & Brown, 2004. 
The character debuted in a storyline in X-Men #12 - 13 (July - Sep. 1965), and throughout the first issue of the story rampaged largely unseen through the X-Men's defences while Professor X related the villain's origin in a series of flashback sequences to the team. Marko is the step-brother of Charles Xavier, and developed an intense dislike for his sibling which was only exacerbated when Xavier's mutant abilities began to develop. While the pair served in the US Army and were stationed in Korea, Marko found a hidden temple dedicated to entity Cyttorak. On entering Marko finds and holds a huge ruby, and reads the inscription on the gem aloud:  The gem channels Cyttorak's power into Marko, transforming him into what Xavier - witnessing the event - called a "human Juggernaut".
After an initial defeat, the Juggernaut returned in X-Men #32 - 33 (May - June 1967). The character reappeared in Doctor Strange #182 (Sep. 1969); Amazing Adventures #16 (Jan. 1973) and Hulk #172 (Feb. 1974), and in keeping with the strong focus on continuity in the Marvel universe the combined stories formed a narrative that tracked the development of the Juggernaut's powers. 
The Juggernaut returned in X-Men #101 - 103 (Oct; Dec & Feb. 1976), the relaunched title that featured the first generation of "new" X-Men. Storylines in Spider-Woman #37 - 38 (April & June 1981) and Amazing Spider-Man #229 - 230 (June - July 1982) explored the Juggeranut's relationship with ally Black Tom Cassidy. The X-Men and Spider-Man proved to be regular foes for the character, with storylines in Uncanny X-Men #183 (July 1984); Marvel Team-Up #150 (Feb. 1985) and Uncanny X-Men #194 (June 1985). The Juggernaut guest-starred in Secret Wars II #7 (Jan. 1986); battled an all-new generation of mutants in X-Men #217 - 218 (April - June 1987); and appears in a flashback story in Marvel Saga #21 (Aug. 1987) and a humorous episode in Excalibur #3 (Dec. 1988).
The Juggernaut also participated in the Acts of Vengeance storyline in Thor #411 - 412 (both Dec. 1989) and returned in Thor #429 (Feb. 1991). Other memorable appearances included an encounter with creator Cyttorak in X-Men Unlimited #12 (Sep. 1996); Juggernaut #1 (April 1997); the "Eighth Day" issue Juggernaut: The Eighth Day #1 (Nov. 1999); Avengers vol. 3, #23 - 25 (Dec. 1999 - Feb. 2000); an attempt at reformation in Uncanny X-Men #410 - 413 (Sep. - Dec.. 2002); X-Men #162 - 164 (Nov. 2004 - Jan. 2005) and an encounter with step-brother Xavier in X-Men: Legacy #219 (Feb. 2009).
The magazine Wizard ranked the Juggernaut #188 on their list of the "Top 200 Comic Book Characters of All Time".http://www.wizarduniverse.com/051308top200characters2.html In 2009, Juggernaut was also ranked as IGN's 19th Greatest Comic Book Villain of All Time.Juggernaut is number 19 , IGN.
* My edit
The character debuted as an antagonist of the titular mutant superhero team in X-Men #12-13 (July - Sept. 1965). In the first of these issues, he rampaged unseen throughout the X-Men's headquarters as the team's leader, Professor X,  related the character's origin in flashbacks. After an initial defeat the following issue, the Juggernaut returned in X-Men #32-33 (May-June 1967), then fought the sorcerer Doctor Strange in Doctor Strange #182 (Sept. 1969); the X-Men member the Beast in  Amazing Adventures #16 (Jan. 1973), and the Hulk in The Incredible 'Hulk #172 (Feb. 1974).
After the canceled X-Men returned in the mid-1970s, the Juggernaut returned to fight new iteration of the team in X-Men #101-103 (Oct. 1975 - Feb. 1976). Storylines in Spider-Woman #37-38 (April & June 1981) and The Amazing Spider-Man #229-230 (June-July 1982) explored the Juggeranut's relationship with ally Black Tom Cassidy. The X-Men and Spider-Man proved to be regular foes for the character, who appeared in Uncanny X-Men #183 (July 1984); Marvel Team-Up #150 (Feb. 1985) and Uncanny X-Men #194 (June 1985). The Juggernaut guest-starred in Secret Wars II #7 (Jan. 1986); battled a new generation of mutants in X-Men #217-218 (April-June 1987); and appeared in a flashback story in Marvel Saga #21 (Aug. 1987) and in a humorous episode in Excalibur #3 (Dec. 1988).
The Juggernaut also participated in the Acts of Vengeance storyline in Thor  #411-412 (both Dec. 1989) and returned in Thor #429 (Feb. 1991). Other appearances included an encounter with his creator, Cyttorak, in X-Men Unlimited #12 (Sept. 1996); [[Avengers (comics)|The Avengers vol. 3, #23-25 (Dec. 1999 - Feb. 2000); an attempt at reformation in Uncanny X-Men #410-413 (Sept.-Dec. 2002); X-Men #162-164 (Nov. 2004 - Jan. 2005); and an encounter with his step-brother Xavier – the X-Men's leader, Professor X -- in X-Men: Legacy #219 (Feb. 2009). He also starred in two solo one-shot publications,  Juggernaut #1 (April 1997) and Juggernaut: The Eighth Day #1 (Nov. 1999).
* Why
Standard outline form does not include an A) subset if there is no B) subset, as I've noted many times, so I del'd the "Origin" subhead. The Juggernaut's history isn't so long and convoluted that his PH has to be broken down into small chunks. Also, the opening quote has got nothing to do with a factual roadmap of the character's appearances, and read as some sort of chapter heading or epigram that is not encyclopedic WP:TONE
 
Del'd "in a storyline": He's a fictional character; it can't be anything but a story that he's in. Better to say what role he served in the story – in this case, antagonist.
Added description of the X-Men, for general-audience reader. Changed "Sep." to "Sept." as per WPC style (and as I've noted to Asgardian many, many, many times).
Don't need to give his fictioanl origin here – that's for the FCB. 
"A series of flashback sequences" can be shortened to "flashbacks."
Since he's primarily an X-Men foe, naming his non-X-Men protagonists gives information about his range; a non-comics-fan wouldn't know who starred in Amazing Adventures, for example. Also, both the cover title and the indicia title of that Hulk comic book is The Incredible Hulk, which is also as it's listed at GCD.
Del'd "and in keeping with the strong focus on continuity in the Marvel universe the combined stories formed a narrative that tracked the development of the Juggernaut's powers."  First, this is OR without a citation. Second, this could be said of virtually any major character in modern serial fiction … that as the narrative continues, we learn more about the character and, in superhumans' cases, about their powers.
At the beginning of the next paragraph, I brought forward the point that X-Men had been canceled and relaunched, which a general-audience reader would not know. The same sentence gives the added information that there is a new version of the team. 
The rest of this paragraph is almost exactly as Asgardian wrote it, with small changes to avoid using the word "storyline" twice in two sentences; to tone down the hype-y phrase "all-new" to simply "new"; and to change the present tense "appears" to the past tense "appeared."
The last paragraph is also mostly as Asgardian wrote it. I del'd "memorable" as POV; moved the solo appearances to their own, separate sentence; defined Xavier for general audience; and del'd  "the 'Eighth Day' issue", since without context, I (let alone general readers) have no idea what that means. Also, throughout, I did some minor c/e.
I moved the Wizard part to the intro. It could arguably go somewhere else, but it really didn't belong under "Publication history." 
So those are my reasons. Anyone, obviously, is free to add/edit this material, but for the sake of trying to reach out to Asgardian during his three-week block — in an attempt to get him to see how and why other editors have legitimate reasons to disagree with many of his edits, and that his may not actually be "wiki-correct" (to use his term) — please do as I've done and try to give reasons so that Asgardian can see that we're trying to do collaborative, good-faith work. Thanks. -- Tenebrae (talk) 01:45, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Today's edits: Offering to work with Asgardian

message: should it be mentioned that he can be easliy out smarted? after all his offical ratings gave him a "2 out of 7" for Intelligence?(. (talk) 16:57, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Juggernuat's Intelligence... 

message: Before reverting again, it would be helpful to have discussion here. WikiProjects Comics guidelines are to not have video game plots recounted at length in comics-characters articles, but simply to note the character appears in a particular game and to note any unusual circumstances — but not to give a plot, which properly belongs in the bluelinked game's article. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:02, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Rtkat3 has reverted three times, including once after I asked to initiate discussion here. This is a WP:3RR vio. Please see WP:AVOIDEDITWAR. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:20, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to have to concur that we really don't need a full paragraph of plot details for every appearance in every video game (and cartoon appearance, and even movie appearance in most cases) in character articles. For most cases, it should be sufficient to state "Juggernaut appeared as a villain in "Super Awesome Marvel Game", but is also an unlockable character." If we get a RS which states more about the character, such as how they are integral to the plot or something, we can use that RS to add more, but really we don't need a bunch of detail here. BOZ (talk) 15:28, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Video game plot

message: Shouldn't it be made more clear that Juggernaut isn't actually a mutant. I know it's covered in the character biography & the powers and abilities section, but I feel it should be made clear in the introductory section of the article that he isn't. Anyone just skimming the first section and the info in the little box would probably think he was Asaspades (talk) 01:46, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd have to agree. I think it should be made very clear to the average passer by that he (to the best of my knowledge) is the one mutant that isn't actually a mutant at all. Infact, no where on his entire wiki page is it explicitly stated that hes not a mutant. It only says he was "empowered" and "transformed" by the Crystal Gem of Cyttorak. However, in the film section it says "In this version [X-Men: The Last Stand], HE IS A MUTANT with no explicit connection to Charles Xavier" and his powers also seem to be affected by Leech (the cure) in the film. Which leads me to believe that I have no idea what I'm talking about. Not that I'm surprised the film contradicts the comic books. Maybe a mutation is a mutation, no matter the cause. But I guess that all boils down to whether or not his powers come and go with the gem... like when Onslaught managed to rip it out and chuck him across the country. Either way, the cause of his mutation/powers is a major defining characteristic and worth mentioning up front, especially since its unnatural. 74.177.183.72 (talk) 07:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not a mutant 

message: DangerousGame has suggested the category:Fictional characters with superhuman durability, I think its a different ability from super human strength, and would be part of Juggernauts power of unstop ability, even if the ability does come from the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak. CensoredScribe (talk) 16:13, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Juggernaut super humanly endurable? 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080603030126/http://www.wizarduniverse.com/051308top200characters2.html to http://www.wizarduniverse.com/051308top200characters2.html
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100410012930/http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/game/561477.html to http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/game/561477.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091126192152/http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/914643/32724 to http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/914643/32724
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Based on this edit, it's not clear to me if the first paragraph under Juggernaut (comics)#2000s which says "Marko remains with the X-Men" means that he had actually joined the team, or if he was just allied with them for a time. 2601:241:4280:161:5D87:8F2A:6A6C:FF7C (talk) 11:31, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, that's clearer now! 2601:241:4280:161:201E:BCA9:CC4C:84F4 (talk) 11:40, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did Juggernaut join the X-Men?