Talk:Jewish exodus from the Muslim world/Archive 1

message: What it needs:
* a less victim-oriented history
:??? The Jews have always been victims. The innocent peace-loving Jews came down from the hills to settle on the lands of Caanan and Philistia, only to be victimised by the evil natives, etc., etc., for 3000 years.
* a list of the main migrations with dates, counts, and some basic information about each
* a new name!  There have been many more Jewish refugees in history than this.  What about the 1492 expulsion from Spain for example?  Maybe something like "Jewish refugees to Israel" or "Jewish refugees from Arab lands"?
**May I assume this referred to an earlier name? "Immigration to Israel from Arab lands" seems unproblematic to me as an article title. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:23, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
***The article title at the time was "Jewish refugees", I'm pretty sure. --DanKeshet
* some NPOV.  At the moment the Jews were "forced to leave" and the Palestinian refugees were merely "created".  The first one actually gives a completely false impression in that readers will think the Arab states physically required their Jews to leave.  It wasn't like that at all in most of the cases.  Usually Jews were forbidden to leave until Israel and its allies mounted a campaign for their release.  Of course the Jews usually had good reasons for leaving and may have even felt they had no reasonable choice, but that is not what people will understand by "forced to leave". zero 08:15, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  What this article needs 

message: I'm not happy with this article. Referring to all Jews who left Arab countries for Israel as refugees is highly inaccurate, while the term "Jewish refugees" shoudl encompass other periods, such as pre- and post-World War II. The passengers on the Saint Louis were clearly Jewish refugees--much more than the Jewish immigrants from Yemen to Israel. Danny 08:07, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not happy with article 

message: === Points to add === 
periodical pogroms, particularly the pro-Nazi rule in Iraq in the early 1940s, details of which measures caused the flight and how did it happen, measures taken from Israel to save the refugees (Yemen?)
----
Erm, Jews have lived in Arab lands since 586 BC and almost all of this time they have been Dhimmis?  I can give at least a millennium when they didn't live under Muslim rule... DanKeshet 06:46, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)
*Nov 2003! Wow. And no one has really addressed this.
----
Why do we only talk about Arab lands, ignoring the 100,000 Jews from Iran who were in the same situation?
Keith from Calgary 06:21, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  From the article 

message: periodical pogroms, particularly the pro-Nazi rule in Iraq in the early 1940s, details of which measures caused the flight and how did it happen, measures taken from Israel to save the refugees (Yemen?)
----
Erm, Jews have lived in Arab lands since 586 BC and almost all of this time they have been Dhimmis?  I can give at least a millennium when they didn't live under Muslim rule... DanKeshet 06:46, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)
*Nov 2003! Wow. And no one has really addressed this.
----
Why do we only talk about Arab lands, ignoring the 100,000 Jews from Iran who were in the same situation?
Keith from Calgary 06:21, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Points to add 

message: Why is there still a NPOV tag on this article? Jayjg 18:08, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Few or none of the issues addressed earlier on this talk page have been dealt with.  The article as it stands is very weak and contains hardly any information about the subject.  An example sin is the phrase "Arab governments ..." when in fact there were vast differences between the situations in different countries.  And why the long list of advocacy groups?  They should be just a link each.  What about the groups that advocate for the rights of these immigrants in Israel (where they claim to be severely discriminated against)? --Zero 01:10, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is this article disputed? 

message: Why does SlimVirgin insist on whitewashing Jewish and Israeli culpability in the plight of Arab Jews? --User:STP
Baloney, whoever you are! IZAK 02:53, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lavon Affair and other Jewish treason caused the exodus 

message: Why "See also United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East" if the UN is said, just prior to that, to have had no role? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:57, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
:Now moved to the bottom of the page, with the other "See also's". IZAK 10:39, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  UN role 

message: I would suggest returning the NPOV tag to the page, since there does seem to be a POV dispute. As far as I can tell, there are no specific factual disputes, though. 
Are there specific points people feel need citation? Specific statements people think are biased? (And, for that matter, are there disputed facts?). A clear list would help us move toward resolving this quickly. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:34, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
Starting list:
* It would be useful to have something about the various refugee organizations other than their own self-descriptions. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:34, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
* Could we clarify the wording about Dhimmi vs. the pre-Muslim era? "Except for intermittent periods when Jews in Arab lands were able to contribute to their countries of residence..." is really confusing; the last phrase ("...able to contribute...") has no clear meaning. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:34, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
* What is the relevance of "See also United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East"? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:34, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
On April 2 I put in an RFC regarding concerns for NPOV. Some fresh perspectives from editors not heavily involved in articles dealing with the Arab-Israeli conflict might prove helpful. --AladdinSE 07:32, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
:Aladdin what are you really saying and asking for here? That you expect editors who know nothing about this subject to give their POV opinions? Who exactly are those "editors not heavily involved in articles dealing with the Arab-Israeli conflict" that you wish to drag into these serious topics? Do you think that science or mythology or other such contributors will come up with "different facts" about what really happened to those close to one million Jews who were kicked out or fled from their former homes in Arab lands? Why not tell us which points specifically you find untrue or false in the article and then we can take it from there instead of calling in a hoped-for "lynch mob" that will never materialze in any case. C'mon, do you really think the unkown people you want to involve here will actually help you to change the unbendable and immutable and undeniable facts of the Persecution of the Jews which is what this article is really all about? What's next...consulting oracles or such-like? IZAK 10:37, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Jmabel, sorry, you are correct, well I have followed up on some of your observations: By moving and putting United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East at the bottom "See also" section; I also took care of some other "POV" of concerns of some Users by now writing about the alleged role of the Lavon Affair in Jewish immigration to Israel, which means that this article has moved to a truer actual NPOV I guess, and would now not need to have a NPOV template as you suggested. Some of your other points have been addressed and edited by some other Users. The question about more information about the Jewish refugee organizations will have to wait, and in the meantime what information exists in the article is more than adequate. Again, pardon me, but it's just that some other people around here have raised their "lobbying efforts" and want to turn everything around to represent Arab arguments only which goes against all the rules about non-POV writing and editing. IZAK 06:28, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: See Immigration to Israel from Arab lands#Lavon Affair, for more information. This should restore "neutrality" and remove User:STP's arguments for having the NPOV template inserted here....for now. IZAK 06:16, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lavon Affair is now part of the article 

message: "Exodus"? (so who was playing Pharaoh then?), "departure" (were they going on a "trip" as tourists?), they left "due to fears"? (like fears of lynching, robbery or rape maybe?). Methinks that this article is about to become a meaningless thriller of all things, rather than addressing the reality of what really happened. Unfortunatley, judging from the type of OPINIONS and edits we are now seeing above, this article may now become a false report about how almost a million Jewish people "left" their homes in the lands of the Arabs in the 20th century (before and after there were Arab states), and oh so "merrily, merrily, down the lane" landed up in the "promised land of milk and honey", making it sound that there were no serious political, military, and Anti-Semitic factors that forced them out, because they feared for their lives, and they were in fact refugees forced to flee to Israel. IZAK 06:33, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently IZAK has not heard of Zionist aspiration, the wish to return to Israel that Jews have held for millennia, since now he is saying that Jews would only go there if they were forced to.   Ok, that was only a semi-serious comment.  --Zero 10:15, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes Zero, I am glad you realize how dumb that comment was. No matter how much Jews have dreamt of returning to Zion, it has never been a "justification" to kick them out like Arab dictators did, (or agitate to have them kicked out as some Israeli agents may have done), of the homes they live in for over two thousand years in Arab lands. When did I say that "Jews only go to Israel if they are forced to"? Can you find the place where I have said this? It is you that is putting words into my mouth, so please stop. (By the way, if you live in Israel, how and WHY did your family move there?) If you would like my personal views, I will be glad to share them, but please do not assume that you can be my "spokesman" today or ever. Thanks. IZAK 11:36, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Jews from Arab lands were not "going on vacation" to Israel 

message: A good example of the errors in this article is the stuff about dhimmi status.  In fact, most of the traditional restrictions on Jews were abolished throughout the Ottoman empire in 1856, and by early in the 20th century practically everything else (including the poll tax and the exemption from military service) was gone.  So during the period most relevant to this article, dhimmi status simply did not exist for the Jews in Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon and Syria.  [Bulletin (British Society for Middle Eastern Studies)  Vol. 14 (1987), p. 254; and lots of other places].  This is just one example.
:While de jure dhimmi status was revoked, was de facto status ever changed?  I thought that any significant improvements had more to do with British and French control of the territories after 1917, rather than Ottoman regulation; thus when the British and French control was diminished/removed after the war, the issues resurfaced. Jayjg (talk) 15:41, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Certainly de facto status changed.  Ask any Syrian Christian if dhimmi status played any part in their lives after independence (Egypt was already under British rule in 1917, of course.) Measures aimed specifically at Jews are bad, but have nothing to do with "dhimmitude" and everything to do with national paranoia about Israel. - Mustafaa 19:54, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accuracy 

message: Some rather more citable sources:
* Communal Identities and Ethnic Groups, for instance, seems distinctly more citable, though it has little Iraq-specific detail.
*For Morocco, see Ethnicity and Cultural Identity (and .)
* Excerpts from The Jews of Arab Lands in Modern Times
- Mustafaa 23:41, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rest of the Arab world 

message: All the available literature indicates that emigration from Arab lands was overwhelmingly motivated by a need to get away from discrimination and persecution.  Yes, the extent of such hardship varied; and there are some Jews that miss the homes of their births, but there is broad consensus that neither Zionist nationalism nor economic interests motivated the moves.  --Leifern 16:45, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)
: I see no evidence of such a "broad consensus". The religious motivation for moving to Israel is obvious, and by all accounts I've read was the primary factor in the Yemeni Jews' exodus. Iraqi Zionist activists have already been discussed above, and you yourself have acknowledged that many Sephardim are strongly Zionist; the ideological factor cannot be ignored. Neither can the economic factor, which has been among the largest causes of all emigration from the Arab world. If economic factors alone have been sufficient to persuade something like a million Algerians or Lebanese to leave their countries, what basis is there for assuming that this failed to motivate even a single Jew? As Shohat says above, "the displacement for most Arab Jews was the product of complex circumstances". - Mustafaa 01:01, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Motivations of emigrants 

message: Aladdin, your efforts to whitewash the treatment of Jews in Arab lands are pathetic!  All in all, Jews were horribly mistreated in all Arab lands for the most of the time they were there, or - let's face it - they wouldn't have left in droves.  It was bad for everyone in these societies, but it was bad for Jews because they were Jews.  It is no defense that things were even worse in Europe.  --Leifern 00:57, 2005 Apr 13 (UTC)
Once again, I've corrected the several trivially obvious errors in the pocket treatment of Jews' ancient status in Arab lands - see page history.  I've temporarily left "limited access to the legal systems", but will remove it unless evidence is provided. - Mustafaa 01:08, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the issue here may be the ability of Jews to give testimony in Muslim courts. Jayjg (talk) 16:30, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Treatment of Jews in Arab lands 

message: The Libya section was a clear copyvio from the sources it mentions at the bottom; anyone know how to remove this from the history? - Mustafaa 02:29, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyvio 

message: "It was following the Holocaust that the demographic potential of Arab Jews for consolidation of the Jewish state was first recognised." And why is it part of WikiProject Syria? Fourtildas 02:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right.  I'm deleting the sentence.  --GHcool 20:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This doesn't make any sense 

message: I have tried a couple of times to alter the introductory paragraph and present a more neutral point of view. But people keep reverting it to the original propaganda method of mixing something which is uncontroversial (i.e. the modern state of Israel attracted many immigrants, in particular Jews, from around the world) with something that is very controversial indeed, (namely, the allegation that there was massive and widespread discrimination against and subjugation of Jews in Arab countries which compelled Jewish citizens to emigrate to Israel). 
The first point is not backed up by any facts in the text, but I suppose it is uncontroversial and does not need to be changed. The second point is very controversial indeed and is also not backed at any point. In fact, the various instances in the article where the point is "proven", the "proof" isn't backed up by any sources. On the rare occasion where there is a source, the source is, at best, spurious, provided by obscure German orientalists who have long since been debunked by more serious scholarship. Sources and page numbers are made up, historical ramifications are speculated upon and most of this article is POV guesswork. The only serious academic who has written to some extent about the topic is professor Avi Shlaim of Cambridge university. Unsurprisingly, he is not mentioned at all in the article.--Chris Camp 16:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, as explained before, the only serious academics on this subject are Stillman and Lewis. I'm not sure why you keep repeating incorrect claims; they won't become true simply by dint of repetition. Jayjg (talk) 22:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Lewis has not written enough about the subject to be considered an authority on the subject. Besides, unlike Shlaim, he does not speak or read any Arabic (precluding any qualitative research.--Chris Camp 22:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, I'm pretty sure Lewis reads Arabic: It was vintage Lewis--reading the sources, in this case a marginal Arabic newspaper published out of London, Al-Quds Al-Arabi, in February of 1998--to come across a declaration of war on the United States by a self-designated holy warrior he had "never heard of," Osama bin Laden. He's also the most influential post-war historian of Islam. Jayjg (talk) 23:15, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The introductory paragraph 

message: As User:Emmanuelm has pointed out, the photo in :Image:Maabarah camp city.jpg is identified in UNRWA website as the Baqua'a Palestinian refugee camp (Jordan) in 1969, not a Jewish refugee camp.--Doron 17:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible mistake in photo caption 

message: Can someone justify what this article has to do with the "religion of Islam"?Bless sins 05:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islam and antisemitism 

message: I encountered the POV sentence:-
:Further Arab-Israeli wars were sustained by, and in turn exacerbated, anti-Jewish sentiment within the various Arab-majority states.
which means that wars between Arab countries and Israel were sustained by anti-semitism, more or less. I don't know how this extraordinary subjective POV got through so many editors, but you cannot put on a page under NPOV guidelines the insinuation that Israel's conflicts with its neighbours are reducible to anti-semitism among Arabs. Well, you can actually, but it would still constitute OR, or EOR (extremely original research) Nishidani 15:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note 

message: I think this could be useful :  but I will never be able to undersand licences related to these pictures. So, if someone could upload or take care of the issue... Ceedjee (talk) 07:46, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture to add 

message: As the section regarding the direction and pace of the exodus was eroded into nothing (rightly so imho, it was poorly referenced and concentrated on a very specific POV), the third supposed component ("International Community") stood out alone. unsurprisingly as it turns out, it suffers from the same malaises, the most important of which is that it fails to show a direct link between its claims and the exodus and rather deals with its influence on israel. that point is also inherently moot because it presupposes that israel orchestrated the exodus, a postulate not supported by the majority of resources (and our primary sources). it best serves as an 'alternative theory', that is if it passes WP:FRINGE (and in that case, do make note that as presented this was an all-encompassing claim and specifically refers to the state of israel and not the various local zionist undergrounds, whose complex relationship with israel is well documented). Either on its own and especially without a 'mainline' explanation, this section needed to be removed and totally rewritten. MiS-Saath (talk) 08:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  removal of 'international community' 

message: The yemenite baby affair has nothing to do with the exodus. It belongs in a subsection of 'Yemenite Jews' or preferrably an article of its own, which should be linked from here. A more prudent thing to do would be to create a section of integration woes, which should mostly be pointers as it's (again) not material to this article. 132.66.201.179 (talk) 05:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The fate of the Jewish emigrants is relevant to the article. We're tracing what happened to them once they left or were forced to leave their original countries. That's why we have a section called "Absorbing Jewish refugees." Now if you believe a section of integration woes would be a better place to discuss the Yemenite babies, please create it, by all means. Wikipedia encourages improving on what has already been done, rather than blanket deleting.--Abenyosef (talk) 06:20, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, this article is about the Jewish exodus from Arab lands, not the many different things that happened to those Jews in other countries. Wikipedia encourages additions that are on the topic of the article, not irrelevant material inserted for polemical reasons. Jayjg (talk) 00:42, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I do think that a short 'stub' reference to another article is in place, and i've done so. but i do believe that what was added was too much in relation. Abenyosef, you'd be more than welcome to start an article on the Yemenite children affair, or a general article on Mizrachi-Ashkenazi relations, but make due note to keep it balanced. MiS-Saath (talk) 05:51, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yemenite Baby Affair 

message: I recall seeing a detailed map from the New York Times from 1948 or so, detailing the thousands of Jews emigrating from their countries.  Where is it now?  Can a substitute be uploaded, if publishing that map posed problems? Dogru144 (talk) 22:18, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map? 

message: This article needs more sources in certain areas. Some sections have been marked unsourced since months. 
In other section we need to use sources that are relevant to the topic, i.e. Jewish exodus from Arab lands. We should be careful not turn this article into one on general Jewish history under Arab rule.Bless sins (talk) 04:12, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There was only one section marked as unsourced, and it had 21 citations. Jayjg (talk) 01:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: At the time Aden was a British colony and the rest of the former Southern Yemen was divided into emerites protected by the British while Northern Yemen was an independent kingdom.  Saying that the riots in Aden had any effect on Northern Yemen needs evidence.  The sentence stating that there were increasing hostile conditions needs a reference because there are no other major incidents after Aden riots.Wikiarabia (talk) 16:47, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: See  or, if the link doesn't work, look for the book "The road to redemption: The jews of yemen 1900-1950. MiS-Saath (talk) 06:40, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aden Riots 

message: This article gives Wikipedia a bad name. I believe a note should be made regarding its objectivity and political agenda. This article is biased and based on questionable one-sided research by modern Zionist 'historians' who make uncorroborated claims and try to create an analogy between the expulsion of Jews from Europe under Nazi occupation and the migration of Jews from Arab countries to the newly formed Israel. There is little evidence that Jews were in fact expelled from Arab countries and although the clashes between Zionists and non-Jews in Palestine and the creation of the Jewish state created tension between the Jewish communities in Arab countries and the non-Jewish populations, which sometimes resulted in riots and the failure of Arab governments to provide security to their Jewish citizens resulted in some cases in the killings of Jews, this article creates the false impression that expulsion orders were issued and police went door to door in Arab countries and ordered their eviction, whereas such thing never happened. Jews in Arab countries immigrated to Israel on their own will and with the encouragement and help of the government of Israel. None ever even claimed to be refugees. Out of 22 Arab countries, at most in 2-3 countries, as happened in Iraq, Jews who wished to immigrate to Israel were given a time frame to renounce their citizenship if they wished to and were not allowed to take property with them. However, the facts are that in all Arab countries remained a Jewish community (how come not all were expelled?), the fact that no Jews from Arab countries in Israel claimed refugee status and Israel never sued on their behalf to claim compensation like it has done against European countries, combined with the obvious reasoning that Arab countries who would be expelling Jews into Israel would obviously be helping their enemies with manpower and soldiers - an unreasonable act - is enough of a proof that Jews were not expelled by law or decree, otherwise there would be none left. In addition, there were known incidents of Zionist operatives who perpetrated terror attacks on Jewish communities in Iraq in order to scare the Jews into leaving to Israel, for the obvious reason that the migration of Jews from Arab countries to Israel was in fact very much a Zionist interest and a part of the Zionist vision.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hpymondays (talk • contribs) 19:59, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Objectivity 

message: The image :Image:Maabarah children.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --11:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image copyright problem with Image:Maabarah children.jpg 

message: All sources:
* Arieh Avneri - Jewish
* Hayyim J. Cohen - Jewish
* Mark Cohen - Jewish
* Renzo De Felice - Jewish
* Moshe Gat - Jewish
* Sir Martin Gilbert - Jewish
* George E. Gruen - Jewish
* David A. Harris - Jewish
* Itamar Levin - Jewish
* Bernard Lewis - Jewish
* Yehuda Nini - Jewish
* Ilan Pappe - Jewish
* Nissim Rejwan - Jewish
* Maurice Roumani - Jewish
* Malka Hillel Schulewitz - Jewish
* Kristen Schulze - Jewish
* Rachel Simon - Jewish
* Peter N. Stearns - Jewish
* Norman Stillman - Jewish
* Joseph Zargari - Jewish
There is no even one non-Israeli historian on this planet who calls Jewish emigration as exodus or ethnic cleansing. --93.142.157.143 (talk) 21:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Anon, what's you point? Are Jewish and Israeli historians biased? Do you support using the term exodus? Are you suggesting that using it here by pro-Palestian editors is to justify using it on the Palestinian exodus article? --Shuki (talk) 19:18, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Precisely, very biased. You can not compare Jewish emigration with Palestinian ethnic cleaning - all historians around the World use term "Palestinian exodus", but NONE of them are using term "Jewish exodus" (except Israeli, of course). --94.253.243.58 (talk) 22:40, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  One-sided article 

message: At anonymous below...
Yes it's biased because, it doesn't talk *enough* about my own Jewish family members who were kicked out of Iraq and Yemen, not to mention the habit of some of the Muslim populous in these lands kidnapping Jewish women as "wives" at the time. This article could go much further into the subjugation of Jews and dhimmi laws.
I didn't write the page but I've been linking to it a lot and sometimes in forums that are Iranian or anti-Israel. *So, please expect a lot of those people trying to delete this or modify it.* To the person below- If you have Israeli friends who left Arab lands and are not refugees then invite them to correct this article.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.243.199 (talk) 06:26, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  heavy bias 

message: In some cases it was a voluntary "exodus," such as those from Morocco, but from others, such as Jews from Egypt, it was an outright expulsion and robbery. Elsewhere, such as in Meshad in modern Iran, the Jews were so badly oppressed that they simply fled. The title of the article should be "Jewish Exodus and Expulsion..."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.71.197 (talk) 08:44, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: how does one decide indigenity indeed? are Turkish cypriots indigenous? for the most part, jews have had thousands of years of history in these places, well enough to be considered indigenous for all practical purposes. 85.64.221.163 (talk) 20:18, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

text: It is very relevant as this term is heavily used in discussions about refugee status and inferred rights due to indigenity. 85.64.221.163 (talk) 18:07, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The phrase "Next year in Jerusalem" is commonly used by Zionists to prove that Israel was the ancestral home of the Jews. It would be difficult for the same people to simultaneously argue they're indigenous somewhere (or anywhere) else. I'd be confident Telaviv1 is a Zionist and wonder what Conflict of Interest he has. 86.157.128.63 (talk) 17:10, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

text: I have read tons of books about Middle East history, and I never saw anything called "Jewish exodus from Arab lands". Can you please name me JUST ONE neutral (non-Zionist, non-Israeli, non-Jewish) source which mention it? Of course not. Name of article mentioning "exodus" is just one-sided political propaganda with purpose to justify Palestinian exodus by equalize it with Jewish emigration. Although all scholars agree they were isolated causes of forced emigration (mostly after Israeli-Arab wars), NONE of them call all Jewish emigration by terms of "exodus", "ethnic cleansing" or anything similar. Emigration from Arab lands is similar to Jewish emigration from SSSR (Russia and Ukraine), because no one forced them to move to Israel; it was their free will. Please note ALL references, external sources and bibliography refers to - Israeli and Jewish authors. Sounds neutral to you? It's like writing an article about War in Yugoslavia with using exclusivity only Serbian (or Croatian) source. --93.142.157.143 (talk) 19:17, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if I ignore all your fabrications, the Palestinian Arabs got the exact same title. TFighterPilot (talk) 09:08, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title of the Article is PC 

message: :I have read tons of books about Middle East history, and I never saw anything called "Jewish exodus from Arab lands". Can you please name me JUST ONE neutral (non-Zionist, non-Israeli, non-Jewish) source which mention it? Of course not. Name of article mentioning "exodus" is just one-sided political propaganda with purpose to justify Palestinian exodus by equalize it with Jewish emigration. Although all scholars agree they were isolated causes of forced emigration (mostly after Israeli-Arab wars), NONE of them call all Jewish emigration by terms of "exodus", "ethnic cleansing" or anything similar. Emigration from Arab lands is similar to Jewish emigration from SSSR (Russia and Ukraine), because no one forced them to move to Israel; it was their free will. Please note ALL references, external sources and bibliography refers to - Israeli and Jewish authors. Sounds neutral to you? It's like writing an article about War in Yugoslavia with using exclusivity only Serbian (or Croatian) source. --93.142.157.143 (talk) 19:17, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if I ignore all your fabrications, the Palestinian Arabs got the exact same title. TFighterPilot (talk) 09:08, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emigration, not "exodus" 

message: I think this is an important issue must be cleared in the article. What is the role of such agencies in forcing, supporting or encouraging the Arab Jewish to leave to Israel. Akatsha (talk) 16:00, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The role of Israel/Jewish agencies