Talk:The Rape of the Sabine Women

message: Hi all. I've moved the main article from Rape of the Sabine Women (Giambologna) to The Rape of the Sabine Women per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name)#Titles of works. The name of the sculpture isn't ambiguous so no need for the brackets on the main article, and it should keep its 'The' at the beginning.  Rape of the Sabine Women (Giambologna) now redirects here, and I've fixed all the double redirects created ~ Veledan • Talk 16:38, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page move

message: (Regarding my minor edit to the Story section.)  In deference to the extensive work of those who've preceded me please feel free to reject my small change.  However, I've made an attempt to improve the style: I've always recoiled from that graceless, baffling term, "pre-existing."  The word itself seems redundant: In essence, the root, "existing," means the same thing.  Further, in this context, citing the Sabines implies their existence.
Fagiolonero 07:23, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Story 

message: the former image ( Image:Giambologna sabine.jpg ) is not so impressive IMO. regardsTetraktys-English 04:39, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture substitution

message: I believe the root for this sense of rape is rapio, not raptio.
Oldpedant (talk) 17:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling error? 

message: I just wanted to invite everyone to check out the page and discussion page for the War rape article. One of the paintings for "The Rape of the Sabine Women" is being used in that article. I believe it is an improper use of the painting in that particular article, as the event itself wasn't a gang-rape during wartime, but rather a mass kidnapping. I'm also afraid it may perpetuate a misconception that the actual event "The Rape of the Sabine Women" was an actual rape, rather than what it really was. Please, anyone with a comment/insight on this, go to the War rape article and its corresponding discussion page. Thank you
: It seems to have been removed now Lessthanideal (talk) 00:26, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: a better translation of raptio should be abduction.--Elvenmuse (talk) 02:20, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "War Rape" Wikipedia article 

message: I have changed the first paragraph of the introduction from this
The Rape of the Sabine Women (rape in this context meaning "kidnapping" (raptio) rather than its prevalent modern meaning of sexual violation) is an episode in the legendary early history of Rome narrated by Livy and Plutarch ('Parallel Lives' II, 15 and 19). It provided a subject for Renaissance and post-Renaissance works of art that combined a suitably inspiring example of the hardihood and courage of ancient Romans with the opportunity to depict multiple figures, including semi-clothed women, in intensely passionate struggle.
to this
The Rape of the Sabine Women is an episode in the legendary history of Rome in which the first generation of Roman men acquired wives for themselves from the neighboring Sabine families. Recounted by Livy and Plutarch ('Parallel Lives' II, 15 and 19), it provided a subject for Renaissance and post-Renaissance works of art that combined a suitably inspiring example of the hardihood and courage of ancient Romans with the opportunity to depict multiple figures, including semi-clothed women, in intensely passionate struggle. In this context, rape means "kidnapping" (raptio) rather than its prevalent modern meaning of sexual violation.
to make it easier to follow. 
Metatron the Tetramorph (talk) 22:18, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good edit! Paul B (talk) 22:34, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

text: And yet someone changed it back, so I changed it again.
Before an edit war begins, let me explain my reasonining and invite whoever changed it back to explain his or hers.  The problem with the original phrasing is that it makes the paragraph much harder to read, especially to someone who is new to the topic.   Clarity is important.  By arranging the sentence thus -- subject, predicate, predicate nominative -- the new reader is given an easy to follow definition.
Now, I agree that it's important to note that "rape" in this context has a distinct meaning from "sexually violate."  But you can't give every bit of important information in the very first sentence and maintain readability.  Someone who can benefit from the additional information about "raptio" is surely someone who has only recently been introduced to the article topic.  
In my change here, I have placed the explanation about the different meanings of "rape" in a parenthetical sentence immediately after the first one.  Before reverting this, can we please have a discussion on the talk page?
Metatron the Tetramorph (talk) 16:38, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

text: I agree with your edit. A heavily bracketed section at the beginning is clumsy. Paul B (talk) 16:50, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Change for readability

message: This article states "The painting depicts Romulus's wife Hersilia — the daughter of Titus Tatius, leader of the Sabines ..."  However, according to the page Titus Tatius "He had one daughter Tatia, who married Numa Pompilius (Romulus's successor) ..."  
So which is it (or did one woman have two names and two husbands)?  Maybe myths are allowed inconsistency but Wikipedia articles should not be contradictory.  If the story is known to have several versions then an explanatory note appears warranted.
Incomplete lists of other pages stating that Tatia was the daughter of Titus Tatius and maried Romulus's successor:
Numa Pompilius
Or that Hersilia was the daughter of Titus Tatius and Romulus's wife:
Jacques-Louis David
The Rape of the Sabine Women
Cross posted to discussions of listed articles
Shythylacine (talk) 10:48, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Inconsistent mythology

message: The article claims that this wasn't really rape in the sense it would now be understood, quoting Livy.  Plutarch's account in his life of Romulus reads a bit differently e.g. "It continues also a custom at this very day for the bride not of herself to pass her husband's threshold, but to be lifted over, in memory that the Sabine virgins were carried in by violence, and did not go in of their own will."  As this is a mythical episode there is not a definitive version. PatGallacher (talk) 22:51, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course it's mythical, but the Plutarch passage does not contradict Livy at all. It says nothing about forced sex, just that they were "carried in" by force, which is exactly what Livy says. Paul B (talk) 10:13, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

text: The distinction is clearly not specious, since it is well supported by sources. Yes, the women were "taken by force"; they were abducted, which is exactly what taking by force means. You actually demonstrate the speciousness of your argument by saying "it wasn't simply domestic companionship or piggyback rides but procreation that the Roman men were after." That's exactly why the women had to be persuaded to stay to be a part of the community. If you are raping someone for sexual gratification you do not need that do you? If the victim gets pregnant that is no concern of a "normal" rapist (if I can put it like that). In this context integration into the community was what was needed. Getting the girls pregnant would be worse than pointless if that did not happen. Paul B (talk) 08:04, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Rapture. Roma offre pace o guerra, a Italia non l'interessa quello che voi scegliette.
PadmaPhala (talk) 14:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: What definition exactly of the word wikt:rapture did you have in mind? Note the last three definitions are considered "obsolete" in English. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:13, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rape or Rapture

message: This article strikes me, and I see others, as some kind of strained apology for the actions of the Romans, which would be roundly condemned in other circumstances. Strange.
Another person in the talk section, Mr. Sextus,  has even produced text which clearly elucidates the purpose of the "abduction," which did not seem to be for extorting money from rich relatives, if I make myself clear.
116.55.65.71 (talk) 04:27, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The purpose of the abduction 

message: The editor who proposed a merge needs to follow merge request procedure: see WP:MERGE. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I'm in error: the other article is a complete duplicate of this one, and therefore a candidate for speedy deletion. The proposer seems to want a change of title (WP:MOVE), which would require a move request. "Rapture" doesn't seem to be used in English to translate raptio or var., though "abduction" is rather common. Cynwolfe (talk) 18:11, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: "Rape of the Sabine Women" may not be the best translation, but it is long-established as the English name for the episode. "Rapture" would just confuse people, & make them think either drugs or Evangelicals were somehow involved. Johnbod (talk) 02:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  What these two said. I've never heard a different way of referring to this topic, aside from the casual shorthand, "the Sabine women".  davidiad { t } 03:02, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Procedural issue 

message: about whether "rape" (extreme sexual violence) occured (because of the violent nature of the acts of roman men) or not occured to abducted women.
First of all the proper english translation for the latin word "raptio" should be  because the latin word , so,  both in the title of the page and in the contents of the article;  NOTE: these misunderstandings are really annoying because too many people (specially english speaking feminists) are firmly convinced that roman men behaved like stupid rapers following their animal instincts.
 which, besides meaning "rapture", is mostly intended as an outrageous sexual violence; in .
Many people strongly believe that  (sexual violence)  because of these reasons:
: 1) roman men strongly wanted to have regular wives in order to raise children and to achieve this goal they had to trust their women;
: 2) one of the many reasons for wanting regular wives instead of sluts was also the fear of possible revenges by gods;  at the foundation of Rome gods showed their presence (by using the usual sign of a storm of birds flying at high speed in strict formation) and roman men were fully aware that the success of their city was bound to the good will of the gods, in fact things and actions were divided in "fas" (liked by gods) and "nefas" (not liked by gods);
: 3) before the abduction they (romans) asked to marry the unmarried women (young girls indeed) of their neighbours and only after having failed this goal they felt they had no more time to waste and so they planned the abduction of the women, also because they needed hundreds of women, not a few tens;
: NOTE: the english page mentions that  because in other pages it is also mentioned that many sources report about a number of hundreds of women (see also the italian page);
: 4) if roman men had raped the abducted women they were never have been able to convince them to marry them and to raise children;  instead abducted women could have tried to kill themselves, to curse those men, to escape Rome to return to their homes and, if forced to marriage, to even attack their husbands or to treat badly their unwanted children;  at those times the honor of a woman (not enslaved) was sacred (it suffice to think about what happened when the son of seventh king of Rome raped a noble woman: the woman told the fact to her relatives, etc. and then she killed herself; this and other scandals helped to end the monarchy).
After the abduction, roman men tried to lower the anger of women (for having been abducted by force) and to gain their trust by behaving like real gentlemen, giving them everything they required to live and granting them special conditions and privileges, so week after week first respect and then love arose between those women and roman men.
:
: A) to add the fact that many sources report numbers of hundreds of abducted women instead of only 30 as mentioned in the english article page (see also pages in other languages);
: B) to include above reasonings (about the strong assumption that no sexual violence occured to abducted women supported by the fact that there is no mention of sexual violence in ancient writings describing the abduction) into the article;
: C) to replace most instances of "word" rape with "abduction";
: D) to change the name of the page from "The Rape of the Sabine Women" to "The Abduction of the Sabine Women";
: E) to add a page redirection from "The Rape of the Sabine Women" to "The Abduction of the Sabine Women".
Ade56facc 22:29, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarifications about the word rape versus abduction and a few proposals 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Should comparisons be drawn with the Biblical story of the Rape of the Women of Shiloh, Judges 21:15-23? - Eroica (talk) 13:28, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Rape of the Women of Shiloh 

message: In 2006, this article was moved to "The Rape of the Sabine Women", I gather that the article at that time was only about the sculpture. Now that it has expanded to include the event itself, I think the time has come to once again drop the definite article as per the article titling policy regarding it. Any thoughts or objections? Primergrey (talk) 03:58, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @Primergrey, I came here to say about the same thing. Eddie891  Talk Work  01:29, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, per WP:THE this should either be at Rape of the Sabine women (sentence case – see WP:TITLECAPS) or Rape of the Sabine Women (title case). Ham II (talk) 07:30, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opinions on a move 

message: "Rapere" means "to abduct". This is why I edited the introductory chapter. While abducting a woman did carry strong implications of rape in the modern sense, the word still means "to abduct", as we can see from the fact that it is not used in cases where there is a rape but no abduction (Lucretia). 2001:569:FB1A:C000:A1FD:EFEC:E476:131B (talk) 17:13, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the meaning of raptio/rapere 

message: What criteria are there for including the different artistic reproductions? Dr Suess is obviously an extremely notable artist and his painting has received significant coverage (see list at ). -- D'n'B-t -- 13:12, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Apart from anything else, that's in copyright, plus it appears to be a joke. Johnbod (talk) 16:52, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: If fair use doesn't apply, then the painting can be described without an image. But I don't know what you mean by ? It could be described at humorous, but surely you wouldn't remove Life of Brian from List of films based on the Bible on that basis? What about John Leech's work from this same article? ---- D'n'B-t -- 17:04, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Artist inclusion