Talk:Ardashir I

message: Major error identified. This needs urgent attention. The image "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Taq-1.png" which is shown on the right side of the Religion and state section does not belong in this article. On the text under the picture it is claimed that it is Ardeshir (Ardeshir I) that receives his kingship while it is Ardashir II that is decipted according to both the entry for Ardrshir II and the Sassanid Empire.
The image and text beneath it needs to be removed from this article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.122.26.70 (talk) 15:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Untitled 

message: Ardeshir I  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.212.70.254 (talk) 18:13, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ardeshir I 

message: According to some sources, Ardashir is recorded to have married his own mother. This is a practice that was common among the royal families in Zoroastrian societies. Yazdgerd II, for example, married his own daughter. Its called khvaetvadatha. I believe this fact should be mentioned. Its mentioned in the following book in details:
'Close Relationships: Incest and Inbreeding in Classical﻿ Arabic Literature' by G. J. H. van Gelder, Pg 73, Published 2005 - --Theotherguy1 (talk) 12:44, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incestus relationship with his mother 

message: I've just replaced some material deleted with no explanation, then found this on the editor's talk page, so I'm copying it here. Dougweller (talk) 05:13, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copying material from editor's talk page 

message: Farrokh isn't a reliable source, but we may be able to find one. As that page isn't accessible through Google, could you please quote the letter and any details about it, and we should be able to source it elsewhere. Thanks.Dougweller (talk) 08:27, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Note someone removed the cat 'People of Kurdish descent' (editor seems to be removing Kurdish from a number of biographies). My talk page has details about the letter which should be here! Dougweller (talk) 13:23, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

text: Thanks. That's why we need to be very careful about using primary sources. I was concerned that what was meant by Kurd in the letter might mean, and in fact does seem to mean, something different from the modern definition. Dougweller (talk) 18:00, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

text: Note someone removed the cat 'People of Kurdish descent' (editor seems to be removing Kurdish from a number of biographies). My talk page has details about the letter which should be here! Dougweller (talk) 13:23, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

text: Thanks. That's why we need to be very careful about using primary sources. I was concerned that what was meant by Kurd in the letter might mean, and in fact does seem to mean, something different from the modern definition. Dougweller (talk) 18:00, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You all seem to be forgetting one thing; not only was Ardashir I referred to as being a Kurd (social term or ethnic, not clear), but he was also a descendant of the Shabankareh tribe; a tribe with the very same name continues to exist near Kermanshah and they are ethnic Kurds.  Znertu (talk) 16:51, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you solve all problem with John Limbert? (: Why are you surprised that the population of Luristan was considered to be Kurdish? You accept John Limbert's claim. Ok but what about Sharaf Khan Bidlisi's claim? 415 years ago, he has written in his Sharafnama that, Lurs are a Kurds. Btw, he was not a simple historian. He was ruler in Sasanid and Ottoman empires. That means, he can know about the people of region. It is not something new that, Kurds live in Fars and Luristan. The most famous Kurdish tribe of Fars province is Shabankara tribe. As Znertu has said, Ardashir was claimed to be descendant of Shabankara tribe.
*John Limbert believes that, term of Kurd comes from Gord of Persian word hero (which is Xurt in modern Kurdish) but on the other side, Persian historian Abul-Fazl Bayhaqi has written about Akrad (which means Kurds in arabic) of Fars region. If John is right, then why Bayhaqi didnt write Gordan and he wrote Akrad? By the way, in John Limbert's book cites that Estakhri has written about 5 Kurdish tribes of Fars. One of them named Jiluya and today there is a Luri tribe named Kuh-Giluyah.John believes that those nomadic people who were named as Kurds were Lurs. Estakhri and Sharaf Khan Bidlisi support him as , Lurs are Kurds. So what happened that, Lurs changed and they are not Kurds anymore? Rashid Yasemi believes that, Kurds' original home was Fars and has said Ardashir's grandfather Sasan has married with Ram Behesht of Bazanjan Kurds. (this Kurdish tribe has written by Persian geographer Estakhri) Those Kurds of Fars become Ardashir's supporters in his revolt againist Ardavan V. So, dont you think that, there is a mistake about solution of John Limbert?
*One more thing, John Limbert has said, Iranian schloar Rashid Yasemi is Kurd and on wikipedia is written that he could speak French, English, Arabic and Pahlavi.That means Pahlavi people are Kurds?--Gomada (talk) 19:43, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

text: If this letter exists, then why has it not been mentioned by some historian? Daryaee, Pourshariati, et.al? --Defensor Ursa 17:31, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats not a reason to say, there is not letter. Everything should be mentioned by all historians? Btw, here are the letters (1, 2)--Gomada (talk) 19:43, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I never said there wasn't a letter. My intent was to say, if this letter was mentioned by other historians, what was their opinion? Neither book you listed gives an interpretation by the authors stating that letter proves Ardashir's ethnicity. Since the letter is a primary source, we are not allowed to interpret its meaning per Wikipedia:Reliable Sources; "Primary sources are often difficult to use appropriately. While they can be both reliable and useful in certain situations, they must be used with caution in order to avoid original research. Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." --Defensor Ursa 14:29, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

text: Why do you ignore Rashid Yasemi?--Gomada (talk) 22:14, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

text: Sharaf Khan wasnt a foreigner who would name his people wrongly. Sharaf Khan named Kurdish groups as Kurmanj, Lor, Gor, Kalhor. There is not mention of Zaza. Because the term of Zaza is not old, it has been created in last century. Zazas were named Kirmanj or Kird. That is same term of Kurmanj. Therefore, Sharaf Khan didnt claim them. Even the first book which was written in Zazaki is named Mewlida Kirdi means Kurdish Mawlid. Therefore, i dont need claims of Martin van Bruinessen. If he is right, where were Zazas 150 years ago? Why isnt there any information? At same time, Sharaf Khan counts the Bakhtiari tribe as among 400 Kurdish clans that migrated from Syria to Jabal and Khuzestan around the beginning of the twelfth century. People can speak different languages, but at same time they can be same nation.--Gomada (talk) 22:03, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Terms can be used wrong. Now, there is a Baloch tribe named KURD. But who say that Baloch people are Kurds? I dont offer a way to create history by relations of names. Turks had tried that, and almost all people of the World became Turks. So, i know that, this is not a logic way. There are always mistakes in history. Just because of less knowledge of Europeans about Iran, They called all land as Persia and all cuture was given as a gift to Persians. Its like history of MedoPersian Empire, in chronicles of greeks or in the Torah, its mostly named as Medopersia, but now everyone knows that empire as PERSIAN EMPIRE. By the way, You have already decided to divide Kurds. Leks are not another nation. If you dont know it, i suggest you to read more about them.--Gomada (talk) 21:47, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

text: Rashid Yasemi has metioned Bazrangi/Bazanjan as a clan of Shabankara Kurds.--Gomada (talk) 22:12, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  That letter from Ardavan V 

message: *2) Shabankareh and Ardashir
*No source (specially secondary which is what counts) was given for such a claim.  The only thing I found is that in the Dehkhoda dictionary, the Shabankareh Kurds (whom I suspect to be Lurs rather than modern ethnic Kurds), claimed descent from the Sassanids.  However, this is not sufficient.  Since Buyids, Sharvanshahs, Samanids, and even Ghaznavids, and possibly Saffarids and host of other dynasties for legitimacy tried to claim descent from the Sassanids.  This is no different than Safavids claiming to be Seyyeds or etc..  In the same dehkhoda dictionary, the Shabankareh Kurds are also called "Persian (Parsiyan)" by Ibn Balkhi ().. Again my belief that they were Lurs not withstanding, I did not see Ardashir claim descent from Shabankareh Kurds.. But simply another Islamic dynasty among the dozens has claimed descent from Sassanids.
*On the other hand, the Karnamak of Ardashir traces his descent to the household of Sassan who ultimately relate themselves to the last Dara (Darius) of Achaemenids.
::Why do you ignore Rashid Yasemi?--Gomada (talk) 22:14, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Shabankara and Ardashir

message: *3) Lurs, Baluchs..etc.and Sharafkhan..
As per Lurs or Baluchs or Daylamites being called Kurds in the post-Islamic era..it is the same issue of nomadic lifestyle and not to do with the more modern evolution of the term.
*V. Minorsky, "The Guran" , BSOAS, University of London, Vol. 11, No. 1 (1943 pp 75-103) comments on Sharafkhans statement:  "This enumeration gives a clear idea of the main groups of the Iranian mountaineers, but only the Kurmanj, and possibly the Kalhur, come under the heading Kurd, whereas the Lur and the Guran stand apart, both for linguistic and ethnological reasons"
*G. Asatrian, Prolegomena to the Study of the Kurds, Iran and the Caucasus, Vol.13, pp.1-58, 2009. It seems, the social aspect of the term Kurd was prevalent even in the times of Sharaf Khan (16th century), who used the Tayefe-ye akrad (“race of Kurds”) to imply ethnic groups of different kinds but with similar lifestyles and social and economic setups. The Kurds, according to him, “are of four kinds (qism), and their language(s) and habits are different from each other: first, the Kurmanj; second, the Lur; third, the Kalhor; [and] fourth, the Gurann” (Scheref 1862: 13). One thing, however, is certain: the process of the evolution of this social term into an ethnonym took, no doubt, a long time-span (see Graph 1), going through different "
*Richard Frye,"The Golden age of Persia", Phoneix Press, 1975. Second Impression December 2003. pp 111: "Tribes always have been a feature of Persian history, but the sources are extremly scant in reference to them since they did not 'make' history. The general designation 'Kurd' is found in many Arabic sources, as well as in Pahlavi book on the deeds of Ardashir the first Sassanian ruler, for all nomads no matter whether they were linguistically connected to the Kurds of today or not. The population of Luristan, for example, was considered to be Kurdish, as were tribes in Kuhistan and Baluchis in Kirman" 
*Martin van Bruinessen. "The ethnic identity of the Kurds", in: Ethnic groups in the Republic of Turkey, compiled and edited by Peter Alford Andrews with Rüdiger Benninghaus [=Beihefte zum Tübinger Atlas des Vorderen Orients, Reihe B, Nr.60]. Wiesbaden: Dr. Ludwich Reichert, 1989, pp. 613-21. The ruler of the autonomous Kurdish emirate of Bitlis, Sharaf al-Din Khan, composed a history of the Kurds, Sharafnama (1005/1596), in which he compiled detailed information on Kurdish dynasties of the past and all tribes of his day. He included Sunnis and Yezidis as well as Alevi Kurds, and the speakers of Zaza as well as of Kurmanji dialects, and even such groups that would not be considered as Kurds today, such as the Lor and Bahtiyari in Iran. Both authors paid little attention to the lower strata of society; where they spoke of Kurds they seemed to mean the ruling families and their tribal followers only. Not all tribesmen, it should be stressed, were pastoral nomads or transhumants. There were also sedentary tribesmen, who were free cultivators or had become townsmen
*Limbert: "In these last areas, the historic road from Baghdad to Hamadana and beyond divides the Kurds from their Iranian cousins, the Lurs.".. So Lurs are a separate Iranian people.(John Limbert  1968): The Origins of the Kurds in Pre-Islamic Iran. Iranian Studies, Vol. 1, No. 2, pp. 41-51.".)
*Conclusion of this part: We can see that even by the time of Sharaf Khan, the term Kurd did not have its definition today.
::Sharaf Khan wasnt a foreigner who would name his people wrongly. Sharaf Khan named Kurdish groups as Kurmanj, Lor, Gor, Kalhor. There is not mention of Zaza. Because the term of Zaza is not old, it has been created in last century. Zazas were named Kirmanj or Kird. That is same term of Kurmanj. Therefore, Sharaf Khan didnt claim them. Even the first book which was written in Zazaki is named Mewlida Kirdi means Kurdish Mawlid. Therefore, i dont need claims of Martin van Bruinessen. If he is right, where were Zazas 150 years ago? Why isnt there any information? At same time, Sharaf Khan counts the Bakhtiari tribe as among 400 Kurdish clans that migrated from Syria to Jabal and Khuzestan around the beginning of the twelfth century. People can speak different languages, but at same time they can be same nation.--Gomada (talk) 22:03, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Lurs/Baluchs..Old Persian

message: *Also wikipedia does not intrepret primary sources unless through supporting secondary sources.  For example, lets look at this one:  
*"Shiel, Lady (Mary). Glimpses of Life and Manners in Persia. London: John Murray, 1856.
The PERSIAN TRIBES The tribes are divided into three races-Toorks, Leks and Arabs.  The first are the  invaders from Toorkistan, who, from time 'immemorial, have established themselves in Persia, and who still preserve their language. The Leks form the clans of genuine Persian blood, such as the Loors, Bekhtiaris.  To them might be added the Koords, as members of the Persian family; but their numbers in the dominions of the Shah are comparatively few, the greater part of that widely-spread people being attached to Turkey. Collectively the Koords are so numerous that they might be regarded as a nation divided into distinct tribes. Who are the Leks, and who are the Koords? This inquiry I cannot solve. I never met anyone in Persia, either eel or moolla, who could give the least elucidation of this question. All they could say was, that both these races were Foors e kadeem,-old Persians. They both speak dialects the greater part of which is Persian, bearing a strong resemblance to the colloquial language of the present day, divested of its large Arabic mixture. These dialects are not perfectly alike, though it is said that Leks and Koords are able to comprehend each other. One would be disposed to consider them as belonging to the same stock,. did they not both disavow the connection.  A Lek will- admit that a Koord, like himself, is an  “old Persian"(Foors-e-Qadim) but he denies that the families are identical, and a Koord views the question in the same light."
*Already mentioned that Ibn Balkhi mentions the Shabankareh were those groups of Persians (Parsiyan) who fought the Arabs, but then dispered and became nomads 
*Note Gamoda may not like the fact that the term Kurd (which was non-ethnic back then) does not cover Lurs today.  But one can also say the term "Persian" does not cover Kurds where-as according to this source, these tribes also referred to themselves as "Persian" or "Old Persians".. So all of this is relative, and one can only use WP:RS secondary sources.  Else imagine someone quotes the above source in Kurdish people?  I have already mentioned the problem with the modern definition of "Kurd" and "Persian" which is diverging from its historical definitions to take linguistic meanings based on arbitrary Iranian dialects rather than a continuum.
:::Terms can be used wrong. Now, there is a Baloch tribe named KURD. But who say that Baloch people are Kurds? I dont offer a way to create history by relations of names. Turks had tried that, and almost all people of the World became Turks. So, i know that, this is not a logic way. There are always mistakes in history. Just because of less knowledge of Europeans about Iran, They called all land as Persia and all cuture was given as a gift to Persians. Its like history of MedoPersian Empire, in chronicles of greeks or in the Torah, its mostly named as Medopersia, but now everyone knows that empire as PERSIAN EMPIRE. By the way, You have already decided to divide Kurds. Leks are not another nation. If you dont know it, i suggest you to read more about them.--Gomada (talk) 21:47, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Kurds as a Persian tribe

message: Joseph Wiesehöfer), Ardashir I, Encylopaedia Iranica
Iranica has examined all angles and it has mentioned Tabari as well.
*"Sources on Ardašīr’s birth and early years vary on many points. According to one account given by Ṭabarī (I, p. 814) he stemmed from a noble family of Persis and was born at Ṭīrūda, a village in the district of Ḵīr and subdistrict of Eṣṭaḵr. His grandfather Sāsān (q.v.), whose name was to be given to the dynasty, is described as custodian of the temple of the Fire of Anāhitā (Bayt nār Nāhīḏ) at Eṣṭaḵr and his grandmother, Rāmbehešt, as a descendant of the princely family named Bāzrangī. His father was Pāpak (Bābag, q.v.), a son of Sāsān, and his successor to the “governorship of the people.”"
*"A second version may be adduced from the inscription of Šāpūr I on the Kaʿba-ye Zardošt (ŠKZ), which names Sāsān as a lord (hwtʾy) but not as Pāpak’s father (Mid. Persian, line 25). "
*"A third version appears in the Middle Persian romance generally known as the Kār-nāmag ī Ardašīr (Book of the deeds of Ardašīr, tr. Th. Nöldeke, Geschichte des Artachšīr i Pāpakān [ = Bezzenbergers Beiträge 4, 1878, pp. 22ff.]), repeated in Ferdowsī’s Šāh-nāma (Moscow, VII, pp. 116ff.) and echoed by Agathias (2.27). According to this, the local ruler Pāpak gave his daughter in marriage to Sāsān after learning of Sāsān’s descent from Dārā, i.e. the Achaemenid king Darius III, and Ardašīr was the child of their union. Thereafter, however, Sāsān disappears from the romance and Pāpak is treated as Ardašīr’s father. The discrepancy of the sources is variously explained. Some accept Ṭabarī’s version, dismissing the third as a legend, or suggest a possible adoption, consistent with Zoroastrian practice, of Sāsān’s son Ardašīr by Pāpak. Others surmise that, as in the case of Achaemenes, Sāsān may have been an ancestor and patronym of the Sasanian dynasty "
So these are the only sources that mention the ancestry of Ardashir based on primary sources.. Later Islamic dynasties (Daylamite (Buyid), Samanids, Shabankareh, Sharvanshahs..and even Ghaznavids,..tried to claim descendant from Sassanids).  However it does not not work backward.--96.255.251.165 (talk) 01:46, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Rashid Yasemi has metioned Bazrangi/Bazanjan as a clan of Shabankara Kurds.--Gomada (talk) 22:12, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Ardashir's ancestry

message: I changed him being from a Persian family to being from an Iranian family.
According to Ardavan I, the emperor of the Parthian Empire, Ardashir was from a Kurdish family.
In Kar-Namag i Ardashir i Pabagan, Ardavan I writes to Ardashir:
You've bitten off more than you can chew
and you have brought death to yourself.
O son of a Kurd, raised in the tents of the Kurds,
who gave you permission to put a crown on your head? (Source:  J. Limbert (1968). The Origins and Appearance of the Kurds in Pre-Islamic Iran. Iranian Studies, 1.2: pp. 41-51).
It is, therefore, inaccurate to portray him as being Persian, when the Emperor of the Parthian Empire referred to him as being a song of a Kurd, raised in the tents of the Kurds.
Whether Kurd 2000 years ago had the same meaning as Kurd today is irrelevant. It is an established fact that Kurds are an heterogenous nation (meaning: combination of various Iranian nations who inhabited the Iranian plateau). The fact is, he was known as a Kurd when he lived, and it is, therefore, historically inaccurate to portray him as having been a Persian simply because you think/believe the meaning of Kurd has changed.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.82.163.173 (talk) 12:43, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: See History_of_the_Kurds#Name, and for the Karnamag, look at Kurds#Name, Kurd simply means "nomad" in ancient writings and it does not refer to the ethnic group, and beside that, you should provide a reliable reference for your edits. -- Kouhi (talk) 13:37, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

text: The Shabankara weren't ethnic Kurds, but rather they were nomads of Northern Iranian descent. The sources you've mentioned state nothing about Ardashir being an ethnic Kurd; instead, the first book uses "Kurd" in the classical sense and the second book only vaguely mentions the Shaban tribe (no mention of Kurds). Armanqur (talk) 00:44, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persian --> Iranian 

message: This article has lots of irrelevant and rather weirdly worded information. Also, the citations aren't cited properly (no pages or links), I can't even find most of the sources. Furthermore, lots of the information in the article is not about Ardashir, but history of the events leading up to Ardashir. I plan to fix all this in the nearest future - do note that article will most likely be a lot shorter, since lots of irrelevant/badly cited stuff is gonna get removed/replaced. --HistoryofIran (talk) 02:52, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article 

message: Many people say that the word Kurd in the letter from Artabanus means nomad, but in the book Karnamag-i ardeşiri babekan. Do you think the Kurdish Med king is called the nomadic Med king Is something possible? The claim of kwrt nomads in Persian is not just nonsense, I would like to inform you that Kurdish is an older and rooted language than Persian. 78.162.144.42 (talk) 04:18, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  is ardeshir Kurdish?