Wikipedia talk:Restrictions on Anonymous Editing from Shared IPs/AOL Prohibition

message: Wikipedia talk:Restrictions on Anonymous Editing from Shared IPs
This poll has been archived, and closed. The current discussion for this policy is located here. There, you can suggest your thoughts to improve this policy.
:I'm sorry, but this isn't a good policy. Most IP edits I have found on the anti-vandal tool are actually helpful, not harmful. Plus it sends the wrong message to newcomers. Sorry. The Republican 02:58, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My argument against that. "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit! If you use AOL, you have to register first!"  Either all IPs register, or none at all.  That's the only fair way to do it. Teke 05:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, you've changed my point of view with that. I guess I will support. The Republican 03:15, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

message: === Support ===
#Support - Given registration is done quickly; and, also, I'd rather extend the restriction to most shared IPs. CP/M 04:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Would anyone want me to extend the policy's effects to School IP's? Funnybunny (talk/Vote for this policy) 02:08, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be better to create a separate proposal for school IPs if you want to create a proposal for them at all, especially since people have already been voting on this one in its current state.  I also think either would have a better chance to pass on its own than the two would together (not that I would support either).-Polotet 03:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This page should be moved to Wikipedia:No anonomous AOL editing or something like that. But the idea itself is flawed. First, M:voting is evil. Don't take a vote. Strive to create consensus, not measure it. Second, this looks like a joke. Like someone got really annoyed at the AOL people and decided to draw this up (the page on How to create policy says don't take a vote, emphasizing this with both bolding and repetition, and doing so suggests not taking the time to read it). Third, this goes against one of the M:Foundation issues: the "Ability of anyone to edit articles without registering". Simply un-wiki.--HereToHelp 03:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (edit conflict) It's clearly been demonstrated that this principle has been bent many times before without a change to the foundation issues. For instance, anons cannot create new pages--that's clearly a bending of the rule as they do not have the same rights as other editors. New users cannot move pages as a result of WoW, yet another policy that bent this rule. Granted none of them outright violated the principle, yet if this proposal is modified to restrict shared IPs only from editing in the mainspace (in other words, they can still edit discussion pages to make suggestions in improving articles, they can still contact editors via user talk pages, etc.), which I think would recommend, then I believe this merely to be yet another stretch of the rule, this time resulting from the problems of shared IP vandals. I agree that this seems more like an attack on AOL than a serious policy (see my comment below); however, as I understand it, the above vote is not to actually accept or reject the policy, but rather it's more of a discussion between supporters and nonsupporters about how it can be improved (or am I mistaken?). AmiDaniel (Talk) 03:56, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've now rephrased the heading on this page to indicate that this is not a vote on ratifying the proposal. AmiDaniel (Talk) 04:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict)I generally agree that you shouldn't slip that into this proposal as people have already begun voting. However, I might suggest that this proposal be stripped down, and another prohibiting all shared IP editing be proposed. This proposal does seem to discriminate against AOL users when the problem is much broader than just AOL. AmiDaniel (Talk) 03:43, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, if anyone opposes to a part of this proposal, you can amend it, for example, you can move this proposal to something like Prohibited shared IP editing. Funnybunny (talk/Vote for this policy) 04:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, I guess AmiDaniel is right, I could kill this proposal, make it broad enough to include Shared IPs, and only prohibit them from editing the Main Namespace. Funnybunny (talk/Vote for this policy) 04:17, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I would suggest: that we archive the above comments and start the proposal anew at Wikipedia:Restrictions on Anonymous Editing from Shared IPs or something like that. Then we can also broaden the scope and prevent violations of m:Foundation issues (we don't want to open up that can of worms). I also think we should take HtH's advice and not hold a poll on it as the goal is consensus rather than majority. I feel this is a very important issue and would be more than glad to help on the proposal, although I fear we won't be able to gain enough support to ratify. Let me know what you decide to do. Thanks. AmiDaniel (Talk) 04:16, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I have a feeling that  eventually this is just going to turn into the "only Registered users can edit" arguement. Jedi6-(need help?) 04:43, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please help us on that. AmiDaniel gave us a suggestion that Shared IP's can edit anywhere other than the Main Namespace. Though it can retain that Shared IP addresses can sign up to edit the Main Namespace. Funnybunny (talk/Vote for this policy) 04:47, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I will try to not let this conversation to move into uncharted territory. Funnybunny (talk/Vote for this policy) 04:48, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Be very careful, Funnybunny.  This is a hot button issue, one that has been/and will always be adressed.  Teke 05:16, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes but AOL users already have problems being blocked all the time but now they can't edit without regirsting too. Also the amount of people beings unfairly blocked will actually increase since admins will give blocked vandals. But because they can't tell that they are AOL users they will give them higher blocks which will harm the user since the autoblocker will block all users with use that IP address. Jedi6-(need help?) 04:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll take that even further and say that because this policy is not in place, many users who have not vandalized are not given their right to edit even when registered. For instance, with current blocking methods, when an AOL IP is blocked (using blockip), potentially thousands of users cannot edit at all, even if they register. That should be considered a violation of the founding principles, and I feel this proposal may be a compromise that will enable even more users to edit than previously. AmiDaniel (Talk) 05:10, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion/Poll 

message: #Support - Given registration is done quickly; and, also, I'd rather extend the restriction to most shared IPs. CP/M 04:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Support 

message: #AOL users are many of the plethoria of floating/proxy IPs, from the Asian Pacific Network to Verizon to hundreds of thousands of schools and universities.  Teke 05:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oppose 

message: :Would anyone want me to extend the policy's effects to School IP's? Funnybunny (talk/Vote for this policy) 02:08, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be better to create a separate proposal for school IPs if you want to create a proposal for them at all, especially since people have already been voting on this one in its current state.  I also think either would have a better chance to pass on its own than the two would together (not that I would support either).-Polotet 03:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This page should be moved to Wikipedia:No anonomous AOL editing or something like that. But the idea itself is flawed. First, M:voting is evil. Don't take a vote. Strive to create consensus, not measure it. Second, this looks like a joke. Like someone got really annoyed at the AOL people and decided to draw this up (the page on How to create policy says don't take a vote, emphasizing this with both bolding and repetition, and doing so suggests not taking the time to read it). Third, this goes against one of the M:Foundation issues: the "Ability of anyone to edit articles without registering". Simply un-wiki.--HereToHelp 03:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (edit conflict) It's clearly been demonstrated that this principle has been bent many times before without a change to the foundation issues. For instance, anons cannot create new pages--that's clearly a bending of the rule as they do not have the same rights as other editors. New users cannot move pages as a result of WoW, yet another policy that bent this rule. Granted none of them outright violated the principle, yet if this proposal is modified to restrict shared IPs only from editing in the mainspace (in other words, they can still edit discussion pages to make suggestions in improving articles, they can still contact editors via user talk pages, etc.), which I think would recommend, then I believe this merely to be yet another stretch of the rule, this time resulting from the problems of shared IP vandals. I agree that this seems more like an attack on AOL than a serious policy (see my comment below); however, as I understand it, the above vote is not to actually accept or reject the policy, but rather it's more of a discussion between supporters and nonsupporters about how it can be improved (or am I mistaken?). AmiDaniel (Talk) 03:56, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've now rephrased the heading on this page to indicate that this is not a vote on ratifying the proposal. AmiDaniel (Talk) 04:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict)I generally agree that you shouldn't slip that into this proposal as people have already begun voting. However, I might suggest that this proposal be stripped down, and another prohibiting all shared IP editing be proposed. This proposal does seem to discriminate against AOL users when the problem is much broader than just AOL. AmiDaniel (Talk) 03:43, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, if anyone opposes to a part of this proposal, you can amend it, for example, you can move this proposal to something like Prohibited shared IP editing. Funnybunny (talk/Vote for this policy) 04:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, I guess AmiDaniel is right, I could kill this proposal, make it broad enough to include Shared IPs, and only prohibit them from editing the Main Namespace. Funnybunny (talk/Vote for this policy) 04:17, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I would suggest: that we archive the above comments and start the proposal anew at Wikipedia:Restrictions on Anonymous Editing from Shared IPs or something like that. Then we can also broaden the scope and prevent violations of m:Foundation issues (we don't want to open up that can of worms). I also think we should take HtH's advice and not hold a poll on it as the goal is consensus rather than majority. I feel this is a very important issue and would be more than glad to help on the proposal, although I fear we won't be able to gain enough support to ratify. Let me know what you decide to do. Thanks. AmiDaniel (Talk) 04:16, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I have a feeling that  eventually this is just going to turn into the "only Registered users can edit" arguement. Jedi6-(need help?) 04:43, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please help us on that. AmiDaniel gave us a suggestion that Shared IP's can edit anywhere other than the Main Namespace. Though it can retain that Shared IP addresses can sign up to edit the Main Namespace. Funnybunny (talk/Vote for this policy) 04:47, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I will try to not let this conversation to move into uncharted territory. Funnybunny (talk/Vote for this policy) 04:48, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Be very careful, Funnybunny.  This is a hot button issue, one that has been/and will always be adressed.  Teke 05:16, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes but AOL users already have problems being blocked all the time but now they can't edit without regirsting too. Also the amount of people beings unfairly blocked will actually increase since admins will give blocked vandals. But because they can't tell that they are AOL users they will give them higher blocks which will harm the user since the autoblocker will block all users with use that IP address. Jedi6-(need help?) 04:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll take that even further and say that because this policy is not in place, many users who have not vandalized are not given their right to edit even when registered. For instance, with current blocking methods, when an AOL IP is blocked (using blockip), potentially thousands of users cannot edit at all, even if they register. That should be considered a violation of the founding principles, and I feel this proposal may be a compromise that will enable even more users to edit than previously. AmiDaniel (Talk) 05:10, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments 

message: In the interest of broadening this policy to include all Shared IP users and to better explain the aims of the policy, it is being moved to Wikipedia:Restrictions on Anonymous Editing from Shared IPs. After the page move is complete I will archive this discussion page. AmiDaniel (Talk) 05:53, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This Policy Is Being Moved