Talk:Battle of the Washita River

message: I suggest to some of you this "Wild West magazine" article (June 2007): 
Captive Clara Blinn’s Plea: ‘If You Love Us, Save Us’ by Gregory F. Michno, famous Frontier historian, author of several books including "Lakota Noon", the "Encyclopedia of Indian wars" (both Mountain Press) and the latest, "A fate worse than death, Indian captivities 1835-1880" (Cexton Press)
"Seized by Cheyenne raiders in Colorado Territory, Clara and her young son, Willie, were being held at Black Kettle’s camp on the Washita River in Indian Territory when Custer attacked on November 27, 1868."
http://www.historynet.com/magazines/wild_west/6937282.html 
Clara Blinn's captivity is also depicted in Michno's book "A fate worse than death" (CEXTON PRESS, 2007) which is a careful examination of Indian captivities. Clara Blinn was detained in Black Kettle's village. 
http://amazon.com/dp/0870044516/ref=s9_asin_image_1-1966_p/103-7133654-9252660?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1SRVJSKZEM1SX41SDGFB&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=278240701&pf_rd_i=507846
Custerwest 15:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We've all been through the Clara Blinn discussion a number of times on these talk pages. Clara Blinn will of course be discussed, but it will not be to blindly follow your lead in calling her "Black Kettle's hostage."  As has been explained to you numerous times, WP:NPOV means that all significant views that have been published in reliable sources must be represented. The claim that she was in Black Kettle's camp is only one of several opinions about where exactly she was being held: it must & will be represented, but as only one of the several opinions. Other opinions including e.g., Custer's & Sheridan's belief that she was held in a Kiowa camp; Ben Clark's & Hazen's belief she was in an Arapaho camp (also the theory subscribed to by Hardorff); Green's belief that she wasn't in one of the Cheyenne camps along the Washita but not Black Kettle's. --Yksin 22:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black Kettle's hostage named Clara Blinn 

message: Hill P. Wilson's account entitled "Black Kettle's Last Raid" is one that the Kansas Historical Society characterizes as: "Biased account of one aspect of Plain's conflict leading up to Washita campaign of 1868 by Fort Hays post trader." Amongst other things, Wilson claims that Black Kettle left Fort Hays with a party of 40 warriors in early August 1868 to personally lead the August 1868 raids on the white settlements on the Saline & Solomon rivers -- a claim made by no other source that I could find. Add that to this: The Hays City newspaper story was dated August 14, 1868, a Friday (you can verify the day of the week at timeanddate.com), and says Black Kettle visited Hays City on "Thursday", which means August 13, 1868. The raids on the Saline/Solomon river settlements were made on August 10-12. How then, could Black Kettle leave Fort Hays to lead raids that had already had happened? Could he time travel?  So much for Hill P. Wilson's witness.
Little Rock's statement was that the war party that committed the Saline/Solomon raids consisted of nearly 200 warriors, mostly Cheyenne but also including about 20 Sioux and 4 Arapaho. They started out from camps along Walnut Creek (where the Dog Soldiers often camped) about August 2-3, crossed the Smoky Hill River near Fort Hays, and thence to the Saline valley (in Hardorff 2006, p. 46).  Perhaps Hill P. Wilson conflated Black Kettle's later visit with the earlier crossing of the Smoky Hill River by a much larger band.  Who knows. Edmund Guerrier, who was the half-blood son of a French father & Cheyenne mother, was actually with the raiding party; he confirmed Little Rock's testimony that the leaders of the "massacre" were Red Nose of the Dog Soldiers and Ho-eh-a-mo-a-ha (The Man Who Breaks the Marrow Bones), brother of White Antelope who was killed at Sand Creek and a member of Black Kettle's band (in Hardorff 2006, p. 52). Guerrier said the war party was made up of young men from the bands of Black Kettle, Little Rock, Bull Bear (the Dog Soldier leader), and Medicine Arrows (so-called by whites because he carried the sacred medicine arrows; it was from Medicine Arrows camp that two white women captives captured in the raiding were legitimately rescued by Custer several months after the Washita battle). Guerrier said ""nearly all the different bands of Cheyennes had some  of their young men in this war party" (in Hardorff 2006, p. 52). So, young men from both Little Rock's and Black Kettle's bands certainly participated in the raids, & one of those young men (Ho-eh-a-mo-a-ha) was one of the two who took a lead in the depredations. But there is no verification whatsoever for Hill Wilson's (non-eyewitness) assertion that Black Kettle had anything to do with the raids, which appear to have been disapproved both by him & by the only other chief in his band, Little Rock.  As a number of sources have written, Black Kettle's problem, and Little Rock's, was that they were unable to control their young men & prevent them from participating in such raids.
I'm not sure why it's so important to Custerwest to "prove" that Black Kettle was responsible for things that the sources clearly show he was not.  But that kind of POV original research not verified by sources soapboxing if it belongs anywhere at all belongs on his blog, not on Wikipedia, which as has been repeated a number of times has standards -- neutral point of view; no original research; information backed up by reliable sources.
I will be back working on this article after the Labor Day break is over.  Custerwest is right that the article needs to include the information from Little Rock & others about the Saline/Solomon raids, as well as other causes leading up to the attack on Black Kettle's camp, & so I'll work on that first -- guided by the consensus already developed hear about how that material should be handled. --Yksin 18:41, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hill P. Wilson account

message: source : http://www.custerwest.org (sources under the quotes. Gregory Michno is a member of custerwest.org)
  
By Dr Gregory Michno, historian and member of custerwest.org. Gregory Michno is the famous authors of several important books on Custer and the Frontier, including Lakota Noon, the Indian narrative of Custer’s defeat, Encyclopaedia of Indian Wars and The Mystery of E company (all published by Mountain Press). These notes were used for the book A Fate worse than Death, Indian captivities 1830-1885 (with Susan Michno, Caxton Press, 2007), which is the first book that carefully analyses the stories of Indian captivities.
GODFREY Lt. Edward Godfrey (1926) of the 7th cavalry says the next village to Black Kettle’s camp was about five miles away. On return, Godfrey was officer of the day and couldn’t visit the old battlefield. 
source: Hardorff, Washita Memories, page 148
  
BREWSTER. Lt. Charles Brewster (1899), who was riding with Custer, says Indian boys and squaws fought just as hard. “They promptly killed all white prisoners.” A squaw killed a white child. 
Hardorff, Washita Memories, page 160 
 
RYAN. Sergeant John Ryan, 7th cavalry, wrote memoirs from 1876 on. He says a white woman prisoner was in the camp and killed during the fighting. On return trip in December, he went back to the battlefield. They collected the bodies of Elliott’s men “and also brought in the body of a white woman who was killed in Black Kettle’s camp.” Back at the expedition’s camp they dug graves for the men, but didn’t bury the woman or Elliott there. 
discussion : Source not used by Hardorff, who claims that the Blinns weren’t in Black Kettle village. 
Barnard, Ten Years, pages 80, 85. 
 
CLARK. Scout Ben Clark (1899) mentions all the tribes gathered at the Washita, but mentions no Arapahos being there. On (p.209) Clark says Cheyenne killed own child and soldiers mistook it for white child. 
discussion : Questions of Clark’s deteriorating memory over the years. The Mexican living with the Cheyennes, whose name was Pilan, was killed during the battle of the Washita, and his daughter, says Clark (1899) lived in Oklahoma but died a few years ago (1896-97?). In an interview (1910), Clark (p.226) says the girl might still be living in 1910. 
Hardorff, Washita Memories, 207 + quoted in text 
  
CLARK. On (p.211) Scout Ben Clark says there were four white scalps in the village. Still in the 1899 (p.213-14) interview, Clark says after they found Elliott and his men, a “short distance up the river” they found the naked body of a white woman and nearby her baby. The woman and child were captured during a Cheyenne raid in Colorado. The squaws killed her to prevent her rescue. 
discussion : Hardorff notes this is incorrect. He claims she was found in Yellow Bear’s Arapaho camp, and Clark “corrected” himself later—in 1903. Hardorff “corrects” Clark’s statements so much, why is he “wrong” in the 1899 statement, but “right” in 1903? Clark did not say he was amending the statement he made four years earlier. Generally the statement made closer to the event is the more accurate, as can probably be seen in Clark’s statement about Pilan’s daughter. 
Hardorff, Washita Memories, pages quoted in text  
CLARK. On (p.220) Scout Ben Clark (1904) again says it was a Cheyenne woman who killed her own child, but several soldiers thought it was a white child. 
discussion : why is Clark right, and several other eyewitnesses wrong? 
Hardorff, Washita Memories, pages quoted in text 
 
CLARK. On (p.227) Scout Ben Clark (1910) says Blinn captured near Sand Creek about September. Her body and her child’s body were found same day Elliott was found, in an Arapaho village five miles below Black Kettle’s camp. Clark also says that Mr. Blinn came with them on second expedition to look for them. 
discussion : Clark is wrong. Clara Blinn’s husband didn’t come with the expedition. Clark’s memory appears to be getting worse through the years. Also (p.230) Clark again says first village below Black Kettle’s was an Arapaho, located five miles away. In 1899 he mentioned Kiowas, Comanches, Apaches, and Wichitas being there, but no Arapahos. 
Clark makes several contradictory statements, some known to be incorrect. How can Hardorff select which ones he thinks are true? His “truth” is arbitrary, depending on his predilections. 
Hardorff, Washita Memories, pages quoted in text 
CLARK. In 1903 letter (p.235) Scout Ben Clark says Blinn and child were found where an Arapaho village was, east side of river, and 4-5 miles below Black Kettle’s village. “It was afterwards said” that in the excitement of getting away, an Indian woman killed her. [It was said, but he doesn’t know for sure.] 
discussion : Hardorff again notes that Clara Blinn was killed in Yellow Bear’s camp. He says that Willie was in the way of the Indian women and they killed him. Clara refused to leave his body and they killed her. As a source, he cites an undated KansasCounty Star news clipping.
Hardorff, Washita Memories, page quoted in text 
  
CLARK. In same 1903 letter, Scout Ben Clark also says “I was out scouting” when the soldiers found Elliott and Blinn, and “understood” that she was buried where Elliott’s men were buried. 
discussion : Clara Blinn wasn’t buried with Elliot’s men, and it shows that Clark is just speculating about where Clara and her son were found and buried. 
Hardorff, Washita Memories, page 235 
   
KEIM. Reporter Keim, who followed Custer and reported the battle of the Washita, wrote:  “A white woman and a boy ten years of age, held by the Indians, were killed when the attack commenced.” 
Stan Hoig, The Battle of the Washita, page 211 
   
KEIM.. Keim (1869) says that on return to Washita, they camped eight miles from Black Kettle’s village. It took a ride of an hour and a half to get from there to the battlefield. 
discussion: It makes one wonder what “danger” the Indians believed they were in that they would have had to kill the Blinns in a camp so far away. 
Hardorff, Washita, pages 255-56 
  
KEIM Reporter Keim also says (p.262-63) that a detachment moving along the river near the “recent camp of the Kiowas” found bodies of white woman and child. Bodies brought into camp and she was recognized as Mrs. Blinn. Keim speculates that she was captured by Satanta near Ft.Lyon, and kept as his squaw. 
Hardorff, Washita, pages quoted in text  
   
KEIM. Reporter Keim (1885) says camp of second expedition was eight miles from battlefield. A detachment found bodies of white woman and child at banks of the river near the old Kiowa camp. Keim says Satanta captured them. They brought in the Blinns and Elliott to camp. They then sent back wagons to get the bodies of Elliott’s men. Keim says farthest camp upriver was Black Kettle’s, then Arapahos under Little Raven, then Kiowas under Satanta, then Cheyennes and Arapahos, then Lipans. 
discussion: Which was Yellow Bear camp? If the Blinns were found in his Arapaho camp, why were they brought in on horseback with the body of major Elliott, which was found near the Washita battlefield?  Hardorff (Washita, 262, in note) now says the Blinns were found in abandoned Arapaho camp two miles upstream from Sheridan’s bivouac, and six miles down from the Washita battlefield. 
Randolph Keim, Sheridan’s Troopers, pages 141, 148, 150-51. 
  
JENNESS. Capt. George B. Jenness, 19th Kansas Volonteeer, wrote (1869) that the ashes of the Indian wigwams were along the river. It was there Black Kettle was killed. “Here were the bodies of five or six squaws and that of Mrs. Blinn and her child, lying some rods apart.” Jenness’s story also in where he saw the bodies himself and described how they were dressed. 
Hoig, The Battle of the Washita, page 212 
Lonnie White, “White Woman Captives”, page 339 
  
RODGERS. Pvt. J. Rodgers, Jenness’s orderly, “contradicted” Jenness by saying the Blinns were found a “short distance” downstream from the Elliott site. 
discussion: This means they were held in Black Kettle’s village. The “Arapahos” or other tribes didn’t bring her five or more miles upstream toward the battle to kill her. 
Hardorff, Washita, page 262 
  
LIPPINCOTT.. Surg. H. Lippincott wrote in report (1868) that the bodies were found on Dec 11, “near the ground on which the Battle of the Washita was fought.” 
discussion: The Arapaho village would have been six miles away from Black Kettle’s village. 
Hoig, The Battle of the Washita, pages 211-12 
   
STEWART. Capt. M. Stewart, 19th KS, (1868) wrote that on return to Washita, they camped five miles from battleground. Sheridan wanted to ride back and look for bodies. After finding Elliott, they went on a different trail than the one outbound, and along the wooded stream “before we had proceeded far,” they found evidence of more Indian camps for a distance of four miles, when they found the body of a white woman and boy. They reported facts to Sheridan, who ordered the two bodies removed along with Elliott. 
discussion: It doesn’t match with what other members of his unit said. 
Hardorff, Washita, pages 264-66 
  
SHERIDAN. Gen. P. Sheridan (1868) says mail of murdered express riders was found in Black Kettle’s camp. Also found (p.281) mules, photos, other items taken in KS raids. He says eight miles down from BK camp were Arapahos. Says Black Kettle’s sister said there were three white women in lodges below Black Kettle’s camp. On (p. 278) Sheridan says Blinn and child found in one of the camps six miles down the river. 
discussion: Sheridan was not with the parties that found the Blinns, and did not see the bodies until they were brought into camp. They were speculating as to where they were found. 
Hardorff, Washita, pages 276-77 
  
CUSTER. In official report (1868) General Custer says they secured two white children. “One white woman who was in their possession was murdered by her captors the moment we attacked.” Also mentions the murder of a white boy by a squaw. Says also that Black Kettle’s sister accused the Kiowas of having abducted Miss Blinn and her child. Custer locates the bodies in an Arapaho village. 
discussion: Custer was not with the parties that found the Blinns, and did not see the bodies until they were brought into camp. 
Hardorff, Washita, page 63 
  
ALVORD. Capt. Henry Alvord, 10th Cav, says (1874) that Kiowas received their rations in person at Ft.Cobb on day before the battle and could not have been in the fight. 
discussion: Captain Alvord was in FortCobb, about 120 miles from the Washita battlefield. 
Hardorff, Washita, page 269 
  
ALVORD. Captain Alvord’s scouting reports (November 22, 26, 1868, before the battle of the Washita happened) expressly state that Clara Blinn and her son were with Cheyennes. On 11-22, “at the Cheyenne camp there is a white woman and her child.” On 11-26, “the white woman held captive at that camp is Clara Blinn.” 
discussion: These reports, which are a very strong proof that the Blinns were in Black Kettle’s village, are not used by Hardorff in his book. 
Greene, Washita, page 255 note 28 
  
HAZEN. Hazen wrote (1869) that trader Griffinstein’s wife, Cheyenne Jenny, died. Griff sent word to Black Kettle’s camp, where Cheyenne Jenny’s mother lived. Black Kettle himself came to see Hazen about the woman’s estate. The boy who delivered the initial message to Black Kettle and Jenny’s mother noticed a white woman in Black Kettle’s camp. He told Hazen about it. Hazen sent a mixed-blood boy, Cheyenne Jack, to Black Kettle’s camp with pencil and paper, so the white woman could identify herself. The white woman wrote the letter on Nov. 7, identifying herself as Clara Blinn and stating she was “with the Cheyennes.” 
discussion: A very strong proof that Clara Blinn was not with Yellow Bear or any other tribe. Hardorff doesn’t mention that Cheyenne Jack came to Black Kettle’s camp to see Blinn.] 
Hardorff, Washita, page 289. 
Gregory Michno, A Fate Worse than death, page 152 
SARAH WHITE. Sarah says she was a white captive “down the river a short distance in the other camps.” She heard the firing. “As soon as the battle started the Indians spirited her away and took her farther down the river.” 
discussion: Why wouldn’t they have done the same with Clara Blinn if she was also in one of the downstream camps? 
Hardorff, Washita, pages 343-44 
  
People who said that the Blinns were killed in or near Black Kettle’s village 
E = eyewitness who saw finding of bodies 
E - John Ryan (1876)    
Ben Clark (1899)
George Custer (1868) 
E - George Jenness (1869)       
E - Joseph Rodgers
Henry Lippincott (1868)
Alvord’s scouts (1868)
E - Sam Crawford (1911) 
It’s important to note that trader William Griffinstein, husband of Cheyenne Jenny, sent word to Black Kettle’s camp, where Cheyenne Jenny’s mother lived, that Jenny had died. Black Kettle himself came to see Hazen about the woman’s estate. The boy who delivered the initial message to BK and Jenny’s mother noticed a white woman in Black Kettle’s camp. He told Hazen about it. Hazen sent mixed-blood boy, Cheyenne Jack, to Black Kettle’s camp with pencil and paper, so woman could identify herself. Blinn wrote the letter on Nov. 7, stating she was “with the Cheyennes.” Also, as late as Nov. 22 and 26, Alvord’s scouts reported Blinn was in Cheyenne camp. 
Ben Clark said in 1899, that upriver from Elliott they found the Blinns. He told a different story in later years, where we can see other points where his memory faltered.
 
Was Blinn killed in Black Kettle’s camp? Some eyewitnesses say yes, others no. In any case she was with Black Kettle until the battle or shortly before it. Being found downstream means the Indians were running away with her. They did not have her in a camp miles downstream and ran with her toward the attacking soldiers. White captives Morgan and White, who were downstream in another Cheyenne camp, never did such a move. They also never claimed to have seen the Blinns. Weight of evidence points to fact that the Blinns were with Black Kettle’s Cheyennes the entire time, until the time of the battle, or immediately preceding it. She may not have been killed directly in the village, but certainly some distance downstream while the Indians fled, probably during Godfrey’s or Elliott’s downstream moves. Custerwest 13:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clara Blinn, Black Kettle's hostage, by Historian Gregory Michno (dissecting evidences) 

message: I can finally report that, per talk page consensus established in the straw poll on August 6, the complete text of Little Rock's interview by Edward Wynkoop about the raids on the Saline & Solomon rivers in August 1868 is now available on Wikisource.  See Interview between E. W. Wynkoop and Little Rock.  The interview is also now linked in the article in the Background section (which I'm currently working on revising/expanding). --Yksin 08:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Little Rock interview with Wynkoop 

message: Though tedentious, I'm curious if we can find a better source than dickshovel. Murderbike 18:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Meh, I see Yksin has once again addressed every response I had formulated in my head. Well done. Murderbike 18:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Custerwest's edits 

message: I can now understand the difficulties posed by attempts to edit this article into a respectable encyclopedia piece that is not marred by interpretive agendas about the nature of GAC and the battle itself from several points of view.
I note a good deal of energy spent trying to ascertain where and how Clara Binn was killed, a matter that was not established factually at the time of the battle and certainly won't be at a remove of nearly one hundred and forty years.
I am stunned, however,that this article would spend so much time and specificity on the run-up to the battle, to Binn, and to the disputed number of Cheyenne casualties and completely ignore what any first level student of the battle knows was the raging controversy in its immediate aftermath: the fate of Maj. Joel Elliott and the nineteen troopers killed with him him while detached at GAC's orders from the main command following the battle in the village - and the serious and substantive allegations made at the time that Custer had abandoned Elliott and his men to their deaths.
This is an actual controversy that has raged practically since the battle, and this article doesn't even raise it as a controversy despite the fact that one's position on it has much to do with the "battle" vs. "massacre" dispute.
Note that the article simply states that Elliott was killed. But note further that the article identifies the total number of 7th Cavalry dead as 21 troopers. As previously noted, 19 of these were with Elliott (and clearly killed by hostiles [probably both Cheyenne and Kiowa] bent on retribution for the attack on Black Kettle from the encampments further up the river]).
That means that the entire rest of of the attacking battalion lost two killed in a direct frontal assault on a presumably hostile village while inflicting a significantly greater number of casualties by anyone's estimate.
My intent is not to make an interpretation of this fact but rather to suggest that it is and has been regarded as a far more significant detail than much of what does appear in this article. That it potentially reflects badly on Custer (and that his enemies at the time strove mightily to make it do so) is no excuse (and I use that word intentionally) for its omission from any discussion of this battle.
Thus, my suggestion for improving this as an encyclopedia article with some integrity is to include some reference to Elliott's fate and the subsequent controversy. Sensei48 07:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree completely.  It's one of the many things on my plate to work on. Any assistance you can provide would be more than welcome.  If you've taken a look at the talk page archives -- notice how quickly they've built up since June -- you'll see the controversy about Clara Blinn taken up over & over again, mainly by Custerwest, as he appears to believe this is absolutely central; to me, though it merits discussion, it's another one of those questions of WP:WEIGHT. But you know, your comments have given new perspective that I hadn't heard of before on the massacre question -- the fact that only two soldiers were killed at the village.  That's really rather incredible. Elliott & his men only died because they came up against reinforcements from the downstream camps, all of whom came prepared to fight. --Yksin 08:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good call Sensei48, where have you been all our lives;) Seriously though, this article needs help, and you seem to be qualified to provide it. Murderbike 16:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, I think that the way modern laypeople perceive events like the battles of Washita and LBH are certainly notable, and that representations in popular culture is a good way of showing that perception. We need to be really careful, obviously, that such sections aren't just "also this book talks about the Battle of the Washita! And this book! And this movie! And THIS movie too!". There are way too many of those on Wikipedia, and they don't contribute anything to an article. If we manage to keep the section focused on what the presentation of the event in those movies/books/etc. tells us about modern layperson's perceptions of them, I think the section can be quite useful. Popular conceptions of events in the modern day aren't always the same as modern academic conclusions and beliefs about them, and the difference between those views can be interesting as well. --Miskwito 20:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I undertook what may become a stopgap revision for the short-coming re: Elliott, using Utley as a source. His work is dispassionate and well-sourced, and the revision reflects his reporting on the issue, not my interpretation of it. Buckboard 14:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maj. Joel Elliott 

message: As promised earlier today, here are a few quotes from sources about the social structure of Cheyenne society, confirming George Bent's statement about chiefs not being war leaders, & that Black Kettle and Little Rock as chiefs were not "military commanders" of their village.
Llewellyn, K.N. and E. Adamson Hoebel. (1941). The Cheyenne Way: Conflict and Case Law in Primitive Jurisprudence.  Norman, OK: University of Oklahoma Press. "[T]he Cheyennes as a tribal unit possessed a governmental organization with delegated functionaries of two orders: the tribal chiefs who made up the Council of Forty-Four, and the military societies." (p. 67)
"Soldiers, other than military society leaders, were not barred from chiefship in the Council of Forty-Four.  This was necessary, of course, if the quality of the Council was to be held at a high level.  But a soldier chief was never permitted to be a tribal chief at the same time.  When a soldier chief was selected by the tribal Council to fill the place of a deceased head chief (one of the five priest-chiefs) as was frequently done (Little Wolf was the last to be so honored), he automatically retired from the leadership of his society and gave up all affiliation with his military brethren.  The Cheyennes reiterate that the appointment of tribal chiefs is elevation to a position of responsibility to the entire tribe.  We interpret the rule which separated the supreme tribal and the military chieftainships, preventing the vesting of the powers of the two types of office in any one individual, as a constitutional device designed to forestall undue accumulation of power by any special interest group.  It served to guarantee the principle of checks and balances as between the military and civil branches of the social organization." (p. 102)
Hoebel, E. Adamson. (1960) The Cheyennes: Indians of the Great Plains.  New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston.  "The keystone of the Cheyenne social structure is the tribal council of forty-four peace chiefs.  War may be a major concern of the Cheyennes and defense against the hostile Crow and Pawnee a major problem of survival, yet clearly the Cheyennes sense that a more fundamental problem is the danger of disintegration through internal dissension and aggressive impulses of Cheyenne against Cheyenne.  Hence, the supreme authority of the tribe lies not in the hands of aggressive war leaders but under the control of even-tempered peace chiefs.  All the peace chiefs are proven warriors, but when a chief of a military association is raised to the rank of peace chief, he must resign his post in the military society.  He retains his membership, but not his position as war chief.  The fundamental separation of civil and military powers, with the supremacy of the civil, which is characteristic of so many American Indian tribes and is written into the Constitution of the United States, is most explicit in the unwritten constitution of the Cheyenne nation." (p. 37)
"The leaders [of the military societies] are the main war chiefs of the tribe, although any competent man may organize and lead a war party." (p. 34)
Hence, the fact of a warrior leading a war party doesn't make him a "war chief", a fact also stated in by Grinnell:
Grinnell, George Bird. [1923]. (1972). The Cheyenne Indians: Their History and Ways of Life, vol. 1.  Lincoln, NE: University of Nebraska Press.  "The war chiefs of the Cheyennes were the chiefs of the different soldier bands, and led these bands when any duties were to be performed.  They were not especially leaders of war-parties, for any man who could enlist followers might lead a party to war." (p. 340)
Hoig, Stan. (1980). The Peace Chiefs of the Cheyennes. Norman, OK: University of Oklahoma Press. "The Council of the Forty-four was the ruling body of the Cheyenne Nation.  It was comprised of four chiefs from each of the ten bands of the tribe plus four who were the principal chiefs.  Though many of those chosen were member of war societies, a Cheyenne could not retain such membership after being named a chief." (p. 11)
Moore, John H. (1987).  The Cheyenne Nation: A Social and Demographic History. Lincoln, NE: University of Nebraska Press. . "The Council of Forty-four can be best understood as a group that transcended the individual band and truly tied all the bands together in a novel manner.  Soldier chiefs ("headsmen," more properly) were required to resign from their military societies to become council chiefs, whereupon they took up the pipe and bag as their symbols and wore a single feather, symbolizing the personal modesty they were supposed to exhibit." (Moore 1987, p. 107)
"Chiefs were charged with two duties only: peacemaking within the nation and foreign relations, especially trade, and treatymaking.  They council chiefs were emphatically not the rulers of bands, and they had no power to make war.  There is some confusion in Cheyenne ethnography on this latter point, which has been emphasized to me by many of the modern chiefs.  If the council met to consider an issue of foreign relations, they could either opt for peace or else take no action.  In the latter case a military society could then take the decision from the council, opt for war, and try to mobilize the nation.  If a consensus formed around the plans of a military society, then the nation went to war.  But the chiefs' council could not declare was; they could only declare peace." (Moore 1987, pp. 108-109)
In later pages, Moore explores the growing polarization during the mid-19th century between the council chiefs, who had an orientation towards trade and peace (p. 191), and the Dog Soldiers, which was a soldier or military society that transformed into its own band beginning in the late 1830s, & which had an orientation towards warfare & plundering (p. 197). This polarization even had expression in marriage practices:
From the standpoint of the uterine or "peace" faction, led by council chiefs and organized for trade and production, band exogamy was necessary, useful, and in a word "proper." Marriage within the band did not create alliances or trading relationships between bands and might very well lead to destructive jealousies and political competition among brothers.  It is documented that Black Kettle, Bear Above, Red Moon, Whirlwind, Little Chief, Heap of Birds, High-Backed Wolf, and Wolf on a Hill were all the sons of council chiefs, married off into other bands.  These kinds of chiefs were the nucleus of the peace faction.
From the standpoint of the agnatic or "Dog Soldier" faction, however, there was no great advantage to exogamy. Since they cared little for trade, they did not need far-flung alliances.  Anyway, they were committed to keeping large militan camps, summer and winter, both for defense and to facilitate raiding against white settlements, supply trains, and the railroads.
Therefore Mooney was told in 1906 that the warrior chiefs "try hard to have men marry in their own band to retain warriors." Since the emphasis was on men and on warfare in the agnatic groups, the status of women suffered considerably, and they were sometimes subjected to organized brutality.  My debate with other scholars on the matter of gang rape has appeared in Plains Anthropologist. In any event, lacking any commitment to trade, peace, or the productive role of women in making buffalo robes, members of the agnatic faction did not necessarily see exogamy as proper.(Mooney 1987, p. 254)
Moore further notes that the "agnatic" Dog Soldier bands "were not led by council chiefs concerned with trade and with maintaining peace relationships, but by headsmen or 'soldier chiefs' who were interested in raiding and plunder." (p. 197)  At the height of their influence, the main Dog Soldier camp -- the one at Pawnee Fork that Hancock burned in 1867 -- had 111 Cheyenne and 140 Sioux lodges, whereas the "peace faction" was extremely small: there were only 47 Cheyenne lodges in Black Kettle's camp at the Washita. (p. 199) --Yksin 09:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The difference between a chief & a military society headsman 

message: Black Kettle's warriors murdered dozens of civilians, raped women and children, sold them to Mexicans, commited abductions, pedofilia, murder, stealings... Yet they are not considered as an "hostile" force because their "organisation is not a White one. Black Kettle cannot be described as a "military commander" because his men saw him in a different perspective. It's useless to note that he was harboring, feeding, training 150 warriors who had just commited outrages.
The worse example of political correctness : a commander of armed men is a military one only if he's from Western civilization. Custerwest 18:17, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black Kettle's estate according to... himself 

message: Clara Blinn was Black Kettle's 19-years-old hostage, whose Cheyenne Jack found in early November in Black Kettle's village. She was murdered and scalped by the Cheyennes on November 27, 1868. Her son was smashed against a tree and scalped too. Her husband Richard claimed the body in 1869 after a year of researchs.
Nevertheless, Wikipedia editors think that she isn't enough important to be put in the article. Custerwest 18:21, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture of hostage Clara Blinn 

message: I am making one significant edit to the text of the historical section  in two places, adding sourced information about Maj. Joel Elliott and the extent to which the casualties with his detachment contributed to the very minor loss of life in the attacking regiment.
I am also trying to remove most of the sections on The Last Samurai and Dr. Quinn because they are superfluous and seriously OT in an article that is on a topic in history. The problem is that I keep voiding the entire notes and references sections in trying to do so, so I'm going to throw in a Help Me somewhere here. Those sections should be reduced to a sentence or two each or eliminated altogether. The extensive summary serves no purpose toward the greater understanding of the battle. All you need for Samurai is one sentence about massacre/nightmares, and the for Quinn merely the a-historicity of the treatment of GAC and Washita. Sensei48 (talk) 07:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Which I now have done. This is an article on an event in history; extensive references to fictitious or inaccurate references in popular culture add nothing to the understanding of this event. The article as a whole would be better off without this section at all, IMO. Sensei48 (talk) 07:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I just added Heaven and Hell by John Jakes (1987) in In Popular Culture section. 86.154.113.168 (talk) 22:09, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Edits 5/28/08 

message: Hi, I was wondering how the following section in the article is actually backed up:
"The evening before on November 25, a war party of as many as 150 warriors, which included young men of the camps of Black Kettle, Medicine Arrows, Little Robe, and Old Whirlwind, had returned to the Washita encampments. They had raided white settlements in the Smoky Hill River country with the Dog Soldiers."
This definitely needs footnote sourcing. This is one of those little details which play into the eternal game who the "good guys" and who the "bad guys" were. Custer gave the impression he followed a fresh trail of a war party. This, in turn, gives the impression he was practically catching hostile Indians red-handed. Of course he didn't muse about the question to which camp those trails exactly were leading or if the lack of lodgepole trails his scouts reported are proof enough that they were in fact trails of a war party, not to mention against whom (could have been intertribal warring or a just hunters coming back). I would like to see a clarification on this. Otherwise it's an unsubstantiated claim on a controversial point, as far as I can see.
Lookoo, 09.06.2010, 15:03:00 CET
(Sorry, forgot how to sign this automatically)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lookoo (talk • contribs) 13:02, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi back, Lookoo. It's not exactly unsubstantiated but it is controversial, and I agree that more careful sourcing is needed. GAC was incontrovertibly on the trail of a group that had committed depredations within the previous week. At some point, that trail merged with those of the villages - when and where this was is still unclear. It's part of the discussion above in "Battle or massacre" - warrior/soldiers melded back into the "civilian" population after every battle. let's see if we can find something objective and reliable. regards, Sensei48 (talk) 16:35, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  No sources given for war party trail claim 

message: Aside from removing non-encyclopedia language and tone at points, I have removed two sources, ABC-CLIO and Michael Blake. The former is a commercial enterprise that solicits articles and books without either normal academic peer review or (in this case) any serious attempt at objectivity. Neither is Blake WP:RS in this case - he is a novelist and screenwriter, and the quotations from him are wildly speculative and would be barely acceptable were they made by an actual historian. PBS is PBS - televised entertainment and not serious scholarship. A college term paper using these as sources would fail. In the ABC-CLIO/PBS sourcing as to "massacre," I have preserved the content but substituted a peer-reviewed major work by a major academic publisher. Blake I simply removed: those controversial points need to be substantiated by someone with the credentials to indicate that they might know what they were talking about.Sensei48 (talk) 16:45, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Also removed dickshovel (a blog) and Horsely's completely unsourced polemic. Sensei48 (talk) 17:01, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits 7/15/10 - Sources 

message: As stated in a footnote from the battlebox Black Kettle should not be considered a military commander. Leaving the box empty of any name leaves the impression there was no leadership among the Cheyenne at all.  The battlebox is labeled "commanders and leaders".  While Black Kettle was not a military commander he was in some form a leader.  The same Black Kettle is listed in the commanders and leaders box for the Sand Creek Massacre.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.141.209.161 (talk) 06:30, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: commanders and leaders

message: Kicking Bird was not present at the Battle of Washita in 1868 and should not included on this page. This fact is supported by the Oklahoma Historical Society.
Farnumm (talk) 02:09, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The OHS page says he did not participate in the battle. This article says he was camped nearby. The two statements are not contradictory on their face, but since the statement here is a bit of a sidelight – and not sourced – I wouldn't have a problem with removing it unless someone else can come up with a reason that it's relevant to keep. Fat&Happy (talk) 02:44, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Kicking Bird

message: The Background section requires IMHO some corrections. The story it tells is basically that the Cheyennes and Arapahoes signed away all land claims north of southern border of Colorado and Kansas in exchange for some hardly arable land in Indian territory which was also largely devoid of Buffalo. It then goes on to describe that the Indians broke the treaty by sending war parties into Kansas and Colorado, attacking and massacring settlers along the Republican, Solomon and Saline, which in turn triggered the retaliatory Army winter campaign.
The factual errors in this are: As per Art.15 of the treaty, as passed by US Congress, the Indians had the right to hunt outside the reservation up until the Arkansas river, that is in southern Kansas. 
But that's not all. Basically, the two absolutely irreconcilable interests in these treaty negotioations were that the non-appeasement fraction of the Indians wanted to retain their lands, especially their hunting lands, which were situated between the Platte and the Arkasas. The Whites, in turn, wanted to drive them completely out of this region and below the southern borders of Kansas and Colorado. The area of agreement between these positions was zero. 
Since the Hotamitaneoo'o (aka "Dog Soldiers") kept up an intimidating presence at the Council Grounds and were adamant to continue hunting in their remaining intact Buffalo lands around the headwaters of the Republican, Saline and Solomon, John Brooks Henderson of Missouri, the chairman of the powerful Senate Committee on Indian Affairs and the government's principal spokesman, finally relented. His eagerness to come to a quick agreement with the tribes led him to make a few critical verbal promises that were not part of the terms originally proposed, including that the Cheyennes could continue to hunt in all their traditional territories in Kansas until the buffalo were gone. The Cheyennes left Medicine Lodge believing they did
not have to adapt to a reservation environment until they themselves
decided to do so. These promises, however, never made it into the final written
treaty and government negotiators conveniently forgot Henderson’s
guarantees after the peace talks concluded.'''
In short, in October 1867 the Cheyennes acquired the verbal concession by the government spokesman that they could continue to hunt in all their still existing hunting grounds as long as the number of Buffalo justified the chase. This verbal concession was made fraudulently. Most historical books and articles dealing with this treaty simply stick to the official written articles and don't even mention that something critically different had been agreed upon. What makes the whole thing even more odious is that while Henderson was shaking hands with the Cheyennes and Indians at Medicine Lodge, an invasion of homesteaders was taking place in exactly those hunting grounds the Hotamitaneoo'o depended upon. By this time the traditional Cheyenne and Arapahoe eco-system had been destroyed in many areas and the Indians had to hop from one still intact area to the next, having to traverse already destroyed buffalo-country. The area now being seized by newly arrived homesteaders was not visited by the Indians again until early August 1868 because rich rainfalls had delayed the migration of the buffaloes into this area. Only then a 200 warrior war party, actually on it's way to raid the Pawnees further north, traverses the freshly occupied area and suddenly realized what had been happening there since the previous fall. The critical buffalo range was dotted with crude farms and freshly broken up prairie ground for crop planting. This was nothing short of an apocalyptic catastrophe for the Indians. They realized that, contary to the peace talk promises given them, the terraforming of their last subsistence refuge had begun and was already in full swing. The sense of doom, betrayal, desperation, rage and hate must have been overwhelming. This is where and when the Saline and Solomon raids begun. I think it's important to make the cause of the raids known.
Thus, the Indians going north into their hunting grounds didn't break any treaty they had agreed to. They then realized that they had been deceived and that the active destruction of their last buffalo range was already in full swing. Against this they retalliated by attacking the homesteaders.
Here is a good peer-reviewed source on the issue:
http://www.kshs.org/publicat/history/2011winter_monnett.pdf
Lookoo (talk) 14:32, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Background section 

message: Negative Hollywood depiction of the US government at Washita didn’t wait for the Indian activism of the late ‘60s and ‘70s. A 1963 episode of the TV show Rawhide (TV series), Incident at Red Bull, made it out to be a massacre of women, children, and old men led by Colonel John Macklin., an apparently fictitious person. Nicmart (talk) 23:52, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: With the attack having been led by a colonel (John), the camp having been "under a flag of peace", and the "breeders" apparent allusion to "knits make lice", I'd be more likely to associate the episode with Sand Creek. But Hollywood is renowned for merging multiple events into one for a plot line. Fat&Happy (talk) 04:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Media depiction 

message: Hi there,
Is Black Kettle's wife named "Medicine Woman" (Black Kettle's Return to the Washita, last paragraph) or "Medicine Woman Later" (The attack, 2nd paragraph)? I presume "Later" is misspelled, i.e. meaning "lateron", but I'm not 100% sure.
Cheers,
Claude Schomer (talk) 07:52, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Medicine Woman ? 

message: The massacre was an example of genocide against an entire race. (2A00:23C4:638A:5000:E09C:F1F7:8749:854B (talk) 22:59, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genocide 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It is Washita Massacre not à battle 213.248.108.230 (talk) 07:54, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  wrong title