Talk:Jacob van Ruisdael

message: The Dutch version of this page had a fantasy portrait as lead image. But Slive and other experts all say there is no portrait known of Jacob. On Wiki Commons there are these 2 fantasy portraits. There's also in the Louvre a marble statue of Jacob made by Louis-Denis Caillouette, although there is no public domain image as far as I can tell. It seems wrong to use any of these images as lead image, or in fact anywhere in the article. I fear most people will not read any caption and think it is real portrait. I have stated in the Life section that there is no portrait. 
The best image available for the lead therefore is of one of his famous paintings.  Edwininlondon (talk) 20:22, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Johnbod (talk) 19:46, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  There is no image of Jacob 

message: I would like to get Ruisdael featured as Today's Featured article on the Main Page. Is anyone else interested in helping improve the quality of this article? First to Good Article status, then on to Featured Article status.
I have a few books on him, including a Dutch one (I speak Dutch).
I don't want to offend anybody who has done so much already to get the article to where it is today. I'm happy to support rather than lead. Let me know.
Edwininlondon (talk) 06:25, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Great idea to have the works of relatives and influencers side by side. Fancy joining me in trying to get this article to Featured Article status? Edwininlondon (talk) 06:49, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice idea, but I have no experience in that process and I believe it is quite time-consuming for the pay-off (temporary increase in page hits). I am perfectly willing to help you with the article though. I am compiling the images from the first Slive catalog here: :c:Jacob van Ruisdael exhibition 1981-1982. When I am done I will make a List of paintings by Jacob van Ruisdael, which you can see developing here: User:Jane023/Paintings by Jacob van Ruisdael. If you have access to the actual complete catalog that would be great, as that one I don't have. I only have the two Slive exhibition catalogs and the one by Watford. Unfortunately in order to discuss his drawings and etchings these will have to be uploaded - the paintings are spotty, but the etchings non-existent. Can you upload some of these? Jane (talk) 07:12, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately I only have the 1981 Slive one as well. And a 1983 Russian one, with 4 drawings from the Hermitage collection, 3 of which do not appear in the 1981 Slive (landscape with ruined castle, Town fortifications and a wooden footbridge, Watermills). I could upload these (where?) On getting the article to a Good Article status and beyond, I too have zero experience, but I am willing to give it a go. I would appreciate you help. My plan is to first sort out the notes, references, bibliography, make that a system consistent with a Featured Article one, say Youth on the Prow, and Pleasure at the Helm. Then the Life section. Then get it reviewed and nominate it for Good Article. Edwininlondon (talk) 22:56, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

text: Slive 2001 is on Google Books, https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=97ITM8WEXR0C&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_book_other_versions#v=onepage&q&f=false which may help. Thanks for the upload tips, I'll give it a go. Edwininlondon (talk) 23:15, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I have uploaded a few drawings. I hope this helps you with your lists.  Edwininlondon (talk) 20:17, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured on the Main Page 

message: Is the remark "(or Ruysdael)" helpful? I thought Jacob Isaakszoon van Ruisdael's surname is conventionally spelt with an "i" precisely to distinguish him from his painter relatives, especially his equally famous uncle Salomon van Ruysdael. Frans Fowler (talk) 19:13, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it is not helpful. I removed it. Edwininlondon (talk) 20:18, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "(or Ruysdael)"? 

message: Some thoughts on the images in this article:
* The articles opens with "... painter, draughtsman, and etcher" which suggest that also his drawings and etchings were of importance to Ruisdael as an artist. Maybe one of each could be shown somewhere in the article?
* The images in the Life section suggest a comparison of Ruisdael's work with that of people he knew, but this is not the case in this section (nor in the captions). So maybe the pairing should be done elsewhere? Although it would perhaps be even more informative to pair his paintings with those of artists that are indicated as his influences. In the Life section it might be more interesting to have contemporary images of the places he lived Blaricum (of the Ruisdael Castle?), Naarden, Amsterdam, or Haarlem (of the St. Bavo Church?)?
– Editør (talk) 13:09, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the images 

message: The article reads: "Jacob's earliest biographer, Arnold Houbraken, called him Jakob Ruisdaal, and claimed the name resulted from his specialty in waterfalls, namely the "ruis" (rustling noise of water) falling into a "daal" (dale) where it foams out into a pond or wider river." Source is Arnold Houbraken (1718) De groote schouburgh der Nederlantsche konstschilders en schilderessen, p. 65 here. The source writes about the part 'Ruis' in the family name: waar op zyn naam schynt te zinspeelen, translated: on which his name seems to be hinted. So, Houbraken isn't sure. He claims nothing! Furthermore: he doesn't mention waterfalls. He only mentions the noise which is made when water falls on rocks. He writes: "eindelyk met geruis (...) in en door de dalen, of laagtens zig verspreid: en wist de sprenkelingen, of het schuimende water door het geweldig geklets op de rotsen," Ruisdaal only started to paint waterfalls (mainly small rapids) since 1659. The family name was changed much earlier by his father and uncle, not by Jacob van Ruisdael. It is avowed that the origin of the family name is a castle's name, not waterfalls which actually don't exist in Holland. I write this to explain why I deleted the sentence about the non-existent claim of Houbraken. Happytravels (talk) 04:24, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for explaining, Happytravels. Would it be better to say something about Houbraken's speculation or just leave it out altogether?Edwininlondon (talk) 13:35, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  family name 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: During most of the article's history it used "Ruisdael" to refer to the artist. In the last year, "van Ruisdael" has been used. While it is true that following Dutch rules, the surname is "van Ruisdael", all English language sources used in the article today (Slive, Walford, etc.) just use "Ruisdael". Even Dutchman Boudewijn Bakker, when writing in English, uses "Ruisdael" instead of "van Ruisdael". And even when he writes in Dutch he uses "Ruisdael" and not "van Ruisdael", see [],  He's not the only Dutch art critic using "Ruisdael" even in Dutch, see []. So it seems to me that in art historian circles 'Ruisdael" is common.
Looking at what some English-language mainstream sources are doing:
* BBC seems mixed: they use "van Ruisdael" here [], but "Ruisdael" here []
* Guardian uses "Ruisdael" here [], here [], and here []
* The Times uses "Ruisdael" here [] and here []
I think we should use here on WP what is commonly used in the sources, even though it would technically be wrong. In sum, based on what I find in the sources, I believe we should change all "van Ruisdael" instances back into "Ruisdael".  Edwininlondon (talk) 09:25, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: General media aren't very authoritative on this. Getty ULAN has the "van", as does the National Gallery, as does the Rijksmuseum. So no for the title. Subsequent mentions in running prose are a different matter, both the NG & Rijksmuseum go to "Ruisdael". So we can do that, except perhaps at the start of paras. Johnbod (talk) 17:01, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point to check what the museums use. The National Gallery happily starts a sentence with "Ruisdael ..." I see. I checked Slive and he almost entirely avoided starting a sentence with the artist's name. I did spot on page 34 of the 2001 book a sentence starting with "Ruisdael also ..." It strikes me as odd to use both Van Ruisdael and Ruisdael, depending on the word position in the sentence. Ideally we follow Slive's idea and avoid starting with the name altogether, but that is quite a linguistic challenge. I can see well over a dozen such sentences. Edwininlondon (talk) 20:19, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  van Ruisdael or Ruisdael