Talk:Macedonian denar/Vote

message: This is a poll that would decide whether a disclaimer would be or not used in wikipedia articles that mention the name of the country Republic of Macedonia. The result of this poll should affect all articles in Wikipedia that include the name of the Republic of Macedonia. bogdan | Talk 19:00, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And I think there is a consensus that this discussion is about articles other than Republic of Macedonia itself; that article is no doubt hotly contested too, but let's deal with one thing at a time. --Cjnm 10:05, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

message: The disclaimer should be put in articles that contain the name of the Republic of Macedonia.
*Theathenae
*Odysseas
*Colossus
*Chronographos (any other course of action would violate NPOV, as it would aid monopolization of Macedonia on behalf of FYROM.  Bear in mind that the Greek province of Macedonia incorporates the majority of both area and population of geographical Macedonia)
::As I have said before, the lamentable-quality article Culture of Macedonia portrays the typical POV that FYROM editors try to impose: reducing the 2500-year long history and culture of Macedonia to something that pertains to their country exclusively, and monopolizing all Macedonia word derivatives in the process.  It remains to be seen whether Wikipedia can prevent this, within its own scope.  Judging by the fact that a Wikipedia Trustee voted the way she did, it seems that Wikipedia cannot, or rather will not, which is worse.  Chronographos 14:09, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: 
*Huxflux 10:05, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: For the disclaimer

message: The disclaimer should not be used in articles as the information on the dispute is available by simply clicking the Republic of Macedonia link. 
*Naive cynic (see Talk:Macedonian denar)
*Bogdan Giuşcă (see Talk:Macedonian denar)
*Angela (see Talk:Macedonian denar)
*Superm401.  We should use the more popular term and not trouble ourselves over the Greeks not liking it. Superm401 | Talk 19:18, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
*Moravice (Completely unnecesary. The disclaimer is already accesibel and is anyway rather obvious. An encyklopedia can't bother to make a disclaimer for every dispute it covers)
*VKokielov This is an insult.  An insult, nothing less.  Imagine writing under Yigal Amir: "we do not pretend to judge his marriage", or under abortion: "we do not pretend to judge Eric Rudolph".  Believe me, for the Macedonians it's enough that their country is called FYROM and that there are signs to "Yugoslavia" south of the border.
* 80.255 Unnecessary. Bending over backward to avoid every conceivable POV is tantamount to creating a new POV. When we start putting disclaimers like this all over the place, the abyss it certainly staring back at us!
* User:Cjnm (see Talk:Macedonian denar). However I don't think in this case a poll is particularly helpful. I would suggest those who feel strongly about this because they live in the area would do best to stand back from the discussion, try to gauge what the consensus is among uninvolved editors, and go along with it even if you personally disagree with it.
** You lay far too much on the human race.  The uninvolved editors are small in number and apathetic.  It's always that way, even in an academic project like Wikipedia.  No; the locals have to defend their positions, with all due zeal but for the sake of whoever decides, and not like animals.  --VKokielov 17:05, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree - you would actually be far more effective if you are able to show that what you are proposing is widely supported by those who are not local or passionately involved. I'd say the same to those who feel strongly the other way. --Cjnm 09:53, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't you know that old maxim, the third fellow gets beat up?  That is, if you try to get in the middle of a fight, you'd be beaten up and the two sides will continue fighting?  There's nothing barbarian in that; it's the essence of human nature, even if we idiots sitting in front of our computers (speaking figuratively, of course) don't understand it.  That is, the least disinterested parties ought to convince the rest of us.  We, unfortunately, don't have neutral experts, and neutral quacks, for all their abundance, don't do us any good...--VKokielov 22:03, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Feel free to rephrase it it in a way that its inherent NPOV quality eclipses our "nationalistic" ways Chronographos 14:12, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As below, "Alternative wording."  Dell Adams 10:27, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Addendum: The UN refers to the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and variably (in reports) as Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic. E Pluribus Anthony 19:01, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Against the disclaimer

message: * Joy [shallot] 20:36, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral/Abstain 

message: I don't myself see that the "disclaimer" is needed in all these articles. But if we were to keep a footnote like this, I'd like to suggest a much better form of words: "Republic of Macedonia" and related terms are the subject of a naming dispute with Greece". This would be just as effective and much less intrusive where the article itself has little to do with the naming dispute. I'd welcome views on this wording (preferably brief ones) - independent of the vote above about whether to have a footnote at all. --Cjnm 10:25, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't, unfortunately, have enough input in this section to conclude that there are many people on either side willing to support this alternative wording. One swallow does not make a summer.--Dell Adams 23:48, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Alternative wording