Talk:London station group

message: Great article. The table could be expanded to show which tube lines serve which mainline stations, if this didn't cause width problems, and if someone felt like doing it. --Tagishsimon (talk)
: I considered this but it wouldn't add much really and would probably be information overload, probably more suited to a travel guide. All you need to know in this article is that all stations are connected via the Undeground. MRSC 10:30, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggested addition to the table

message: The article says it includes all central London railway stations. Elephant and Castle railway station is located right on the central London ring road so why not include this? Simply south 17:04, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we add that one, why not every other station in zone 1? This article is just for the main terminal stations. MRSC 18:52, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If that is so, then you might as well get rid of City Thameslink, Waterloo East and Farringdon Simply south 19:44, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elephant and Castle 

message: What do the icons by the stations represent? I've never seen them used on the stations themselves, unless they're relatively new. --Tivedshambo (talk) 22:44, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Each station managed by Network Rail has one (Birmingham New Street has one as well).  They're meant as a logo to identify that station and are used on station name signs on platforms etc.  At least, that's the theory.  --RFBailey 22:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Icons

message: I think the table should be put back into one. London Bridge and Blackfriars both have through and terminal platforms, it seems putting them in a "terminals" section is a bit misleading. MRSC • Talk 09:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Split table

message: Have there ever been plans to actually have one main London railway station? If so that information should be included into the article (at least in form of a link), otherwise it’s just as interesting why noone sees such a need. (Not that London was special therein among the largest European cities, for Paris and Moscow have no central station either, but Berlin now does.) Christoph Päper 23:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  London Great Central Station 

message: I have a considerable interest in this article, as I wrote all of the content within the Station groups article (including the section moved across into this article).  The move seems sensible to me; I realise that the content is quite, er, "arcane" and specialised (Tagishsimon's "starter for ten" comment was apt), but it's a difficult situation to explain.  I may tweak some wording to provide a more logical link with the station groups article and to remove bits which are not directly relevant to London.
I saw a comment above about creating "a listing of all stations for which London is a valid destination, with notes as to what direction".  Unfortunately this would not really be possible, as LONDON TERMINALS is, as per National Fares Manuals and ticket issuing systems, for pretty much every station in Britain (other than the "group stations" themselves).  It would also look unwieldy and would be difficult to format, as many stations have several London group stations that are "legal".  For example, tickets from my home station of Hassocks to LONDON TERMINALS are valid to CX, Waterloo E, London Bridge, Blackfriars, City TLK, Cannon Street, Vauxhall, Vic and Waterloo.  Tickets from Stamford (Lincolnshire) would be valid to St Pancras via Leicester, Kings X or Moorgate via Stevenage, and Liverpool Street via Peterborough and Ely.  Even something like Bath Spa, by virtue of being valid to Waterloo (via Reading and Ascot), would notionally be valid to Victoria as well (by changing at Clapham Junction) ... and I know from personal experience that the ticket gates at London Bridge and Charing Cross accept tickets from "South West Trains" stations to LONDON TERMINALS via Waterloo and Waterloo East - so in theory, you could travel from Bath Spa to CX, LB, Cannon St, BF or City T.  Unfortunately there is no clear proof of this.  This doesn't mean to say I wouldn't like to see such information recorded - in fact, I'd love it! - but it's probably the sort of thing that would be better published in the specialist press (such as the Transport Ticket Society Journal, which I write for).
If anybody has any questions about the ticketing and fare-setting side of things relating to the "London group", please leave me a note on my talk page.  Hassocks5489 18:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "London Terminals" and ticketing implications 

message: I've tried to amend the reference list as per the usual Wikipedia style for quoting journal articles.  Unfortunately, I don't know the name of the article in the Journal of the Transport Ticket Society (ref 1), and so the current reference starts """". Does anyone have it so that the reference can be finalised? D-Notice (talk) 14:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: There is no central London railway station called London Central, nor there ever was. However, there was a station in the past under the name of Central in the Docklands. See Central railway station (London). Simply south (talk) 23:17, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible irony 

message: I've noticed that the table of entry & exit figures says for 2002/3 Moorgate had "0.000832 million" people.  Did it really only have 832 people using it? D-Notice (talk) 14:53, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's because the figures are deeply misleading. They are actually "tickets for journeys allocated to these stations" and both the station groups and travelcards seriously distort things because almost no ticket sales are actually allocated to Moorgate (also most of it being a TfL station confuses things further). Timrollpickering (talk) 15:14, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moorgate entry and exit 

message: This article, pointlessly stuffed with a gallery of pictures which should be each in its own station's article and not here, does list the group's stations but fails to explain the Group concept. It has a link to that's article which, separate from its list of groups, has "London Group" saying see this article, with a link.--SilasW (talk) 11:48, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah. That's what the edit button is for. I've made a change which might satisfy.  --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:24, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the point of a station group? 

message: Why these stations on the zone1 are ignored? According to the article, it has to be because they are not rendered on tickets as "London Terminals." Or are they?
It needs to be cleared. How about any other stations outside of zone1? First of all, what's the definition of "London Station Group"? --WillaMissionary (talk) 09:10, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Am working on this at the moment to clarify, but I need to find suitable sources.  (Farringdon and E&C are definitely never rendered as LONDON TERMINALS on tickets.)  Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 12:02, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

text: And Hoxton.--119.243.201.165 (talk) 11:17, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Farringdon, Elephant & Castle and Shoreditch High Street 

message: For resolve all the discussions above, we need to clear this. Is it about a station stated "LONDON TERMINALS" on the ticket? About a station having terminal platform? a station on zone1? Or does it mean a station for which trains are bound as the final stop/destination? For me, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, E&C, Farringdon, Hoxton, Old Street, Shoreditch High, Vauxall, and perhaps Waterloo East, these stations don't seem to be suitable for the word "Terminal." They're just ordinally intermediate ones.  (119.243.201.165 (talk) 11:03, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's intended to be about the first of those: i.e. stations that come under the "LONDON TERMINALS" designation on tickets.  See here for the full list of stations to which a LONDON TERMINALS ticket is valid.  Pre-privatisation, the description "LONDON BR" (and subsequently "LONDON BRIT RAIL") was used to signify the London group.  New wording had to be introduced after privatisation, and it was felt that the least ambiguous option would be London Terminals – even though some of the stations are not termini, as you say.  Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 11:32, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Then I feel sorry for Farringdon, being the only station between terminals excluded from the group, while some other minors have been included.--WillaMissionary (talk) 08:53, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Definition of "London Terminal" 

message: Is there much point for this section, since the stations are listed again an inch further down the page in the station statistics section? Couldn't these sections be merged? MarkovianStumble (talk) 10:42, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Group Members section obsolete? 

message: Since these stations were largely built as termini for various lines, might a column be added to the table for the railway company that originally built the station? MarkovianStumble (talk) 10:47, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original railway company in statistics table? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: When I wrote the above, I introduced an inconsistency which I have fixed (hopefully) with this edit.  I have removed the spurious reference to "South of the Thames", which was simply absent-mindedness by me (CX and Victoria are of course on the north side of the Thames); the reference to "Southern Region terminals" should suffice.  (I know that Vauxhall isn't a terminal, but other terms such as "stations", "major stations" etc. are probably not suitable either).  I have fixed a name error on the ref to the TTS Journal #565 and moved it to the correct place to support only what the reference states, and have introduced a separate reference to support the stations covered by "LONDON S.R.".  Finally, to explain the apparent inconsistency between the creation of the wider "LONDON BR" designation in 1983 and the use of a 1984 reference to support "LONDON S.R.", I have added a hidden note to say that the two designations did indeed exist alongside each other for that year only.  I'm almost certain that this is because ticket stock preprinted with "LONDON S.R." still had to be used up during 1984.  Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 18:34, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Definition" section 

message: To London terminals, as this is the term of art that this covers.  All the best: Rich Farmbrough  20:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Vauxhall and Old Street aren't terminals. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:25, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: But they are still legitimate end points of a London Terminals ticket. What does NR call these officially? How did this article land at this current name? -mattbuck (Talk) 15:37, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: When talking about London Terminals from a ticketing/fare-setting point of view, rather than a general "rail operations" point of view, the official term is "station group"—sometimes given as "group station" instead.  For example, this is from the National Fares Manual #92 (January 2006): "The following stations are grouped together with common prices for travel to/from any station in the group.  Tickets issued to or from station groups listed below are available at any associated station in the group […] tickets are issued to and from the named station group."  (All the station groups and their component stations are then listed, including London.  Other Fares Manuals have similar text.)  The article is not just concerned with ticket-related matters, though, so I'm not sure what the best name should be.  Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 15:50, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed move