Talk:Farringdon, London/Archive 1

message: This area was probably affected by The City and London Borough Boundaries Order 1993. Might be worth a mention. MRSC 08:51, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes - that's quite a large boundary change (at least as far as the City goes).  Morwen - Talk 09:04, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Boundary changes

message: This edit reverts numerous other changes to the one the edit summary disagrees with. Can we please edit/discuss this a little more amicably? MRSC 12:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For now at least, can you drop the attempts to assert that half of north-east central London is referred to by people as "Farringdon", and leave it as "vaguely defined"? We were getting somewhere earlier, now you have gone off on one again. Make whatever edits you want but please just drop that point. Then we can discuss. There's no point otherwise. --SandyDancer 13:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And what's this bit about "political wards" you have tried to insert? You seem to have a very odd agenda - is it that you have an issue with historic placenames or something? Looking at the other activities you have been involved in on Wikipedia, that's what I am beginning to think. Its really strange. --SandyDancer 13:06, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no agenda other than presenting things accurately, and using credible citations. It is you who has a preconceived idea of what Farringdon is and will accept nothing else. Your last comments, based on other contributions I have made, are obscure and form a vague personal attack. MRSC 13:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But you aren't providing credible citations either!! Where does you assertion that Farringdon = anywhere near Farringdon Road come from? You are being such a hypocrite. Don't try and scare me off with all this personal attack wording, if you can't back up what you are saying then maybe you are in the wrong place. You approached this all wrong - you set the tone, not me. --SandyDancer 13:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverts

message: I quote from Mills, A., Oxford Dictionary of London Place Names, (2000): "Farringdon, Islington. Station named from Farringdon Road which was constructed in 1845-6, this being a continuation of Farringdon Street in the City which was built over the Fleet river in 1737. All preserve the name Farringdon, one of the ancient wards in the City, which was so called from two of its alderman in the early 13th Century, William and Nicholas de Faringdon." MRSC 13:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't get that from the text, especially as it about placenames. It is just telling us the origin. Why does it begin Farringdon, Islington? If it were disputing the existance of the area it would begin Farringdon Station, Islington or somesuch. Given all of the above, calling for a merge seems like and attempt to prove a point. In any case, it will be good to get a more varied range of perspectives. MRSC 15:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Farringdon as a place name = Farringdon Station, not an area thereabouts

message: 1. "Farringdon is a locality in Central London, England." Do you have a source for this central premise, other than casual usage which falls into the same category as people describing things around London Bridge as being at or in London Bridge? If not, why have you constructed an article around this premise? If you want to see lots of examples of such usages across London, have a poke around this website, "beerintheevening.com"  - a directory of London pubs. Here are some examples: for Bond Street , London Bridge , Cannon Street 
, Liverpool Street  and indeed for Farringdon . You wouldn't contend that these rail/tube station names are areas, would you? If so, you will be very busy creating articles over the next few days.
2. Why are Fitzrovia and Belgravia used as examples here? These place names, while not administrative areas, appear on maps of London (I am looking at the A&Z - both appear). "Farringdon", as a word to describe the area around Farringdon Station, does not appear on any map of London. Online mapping services like Streetmap.co.uk produce the same result. Belgravia and Fitzrovia moreover describe parts of London without another identity, whereas Farringdon Station is simply in Clerkenwell. Moreover Farringdon is a pre-existing place name itself - for a different area that still exists. There are very important differences here that you are ignoring. The analogies are false. A better one would be the tendency some people have to refer to the area around London Bridge as "London Bridge", which rightly doesn't have an article because "London Bridge" is not an area.
3. Why have you used the source numbered as 1 as if it supports your contention that the area around the Station is "Farringdon"? It does not such thing. Yes, it shows the Station is at the extreme south of Islington, but in reality this is just another example of a London map which doesn't identify an area called "Farringdon" around the station of the same name.
4. Source 3 states at one point "As winter draws near, the Farringdon cressmarket begins long before daylight. On your way to the City to see this strange sight, the streets are deserted". So the market in question was in the City - in the actual Farringdon area. Indeed Farringdon Street is in the historical area of Farringdon (it is Farringdon Road which lies to the north, and presumably is so named because it leads to Farringdon, not because it is in Farringdon - just like the hundreds of "London Roads" you will find all over the south east of England).
With respect yoour rewrite doesn't do anything - it doesn't establish the validity of your claims. None of the sources you have serve to settle the issue at stake between us - they just demonstrate things we agree on (that Farringdon Stn is in Islington but before 1993 was in the city, that there are two wards called Farringdon in the City, the etymology fo the name...). The asserion you are making that divides us is still just that an assertion, not backed by any source. --SandyDancer 11:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Sandy, I don't think the situation is so contentious as to loose sleep over it. I think, a 'potential district' called Farringdon is a remnant of the time that there was a market here. If there ever was a historic Farringdon, it seems to have been centred on the area where the station and railway line were subsequently built, thus sweeping away any evidence for a true 'historic centre'. The area itself was important for a number of historical reasons, and I'll try to deal with some of that under the 'within' and 'without' articles. Most station articles only contain information about the construction and use of the station, not the area around them; so, Mrsteviec's view of not merging has some merit - but then so do your arguments. Why not just agree to disagree? I think the evidence (I've seen) underdetermines the theories in this case, and it can be interpreted either way. Leaving the article with a note that it may be a back-formation from the station does provide the reader with a sense that its independent existence is contentious. I don't think it is Wiki-wrong to err on the side of expansiveness. I do think the continuation of this argument should wait until the end of the pantomime season (oh no it's not) ... A little time and reflection would allow everyone to approach the subject with fresh eyes. Kbthompson 11:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Questions

message: The business of the City/Islington boundaries is very interesting. I have found a very detailed (parish level) map of c1600 which shows the Farringdon area far north of the City boundary. More interestingly the development plans of the Corporation and Islington in the 70s and 80s have high detail maps which show the station and surrounding streets as part of Islington (but with different boundaries to now). I would suggest there has been another transfer of land at some point. I did a quick search on LexisNexis for a possible SI but couldn't find one. I will do a more detailed search when I have some time, unless someone knows more about the boundary here? MRSC 13:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A visit to the site today reveals all the streets in the block around the station have "Metropolitan Borough of Finsbury" signs (see image in article). This, coupled with the 70s/80s development plans would suggest the 1993 order was a reversal of some kind. MRSC 15:59, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

text: The map on VOB also shows Finsbury extending down to include the station and Cowcross Street. I'm starting to wonder if the 1993 order really did move the station from City to Islington. It is looking increasingly less likely (unless it was a reversal of something). MRSC 16:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On closer inspection the SI only made a minor realignment in this area: the small section south of Cowcross Street and north of Charterhouse Street (a little triangle) was transferred. Farrindon station has never been in the City of London. This matches up with the Finsbury street signs and the development plans of the Corporation and Islington LBC. I shall amend the text accordingly. MRSC 17:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Boundary

message: This caption of this picture is highly misleading. Mount Pleasant sorting office is not in the area commonly referred to as Farringdon - it is in Mount Pleasant, or Clerkenwell. Now in the article there is a link to a BBC interview with a former worker there who refers to the office as being in "Farringdon" presumably because it is on Farringdon Road. This source doesn't prove the contention. Here is a source which says it is in "Mount Pleasant" - , and here's one that says its in Clerkenwell . Using Google you will find many more.
I think this is just one demonstration of the fact this article has been constructed on the basis of circumstantial evidence but no actual real definitive sources, to establish there is a sizable "informal" area in around Farringdon station referred to as "Farringdon" that extends beyond the immediate vicinity of the station. I contend that there aren't any direct sources for this because it isn't really the case. But my contentions have been overriden and ignored.
This article is now built on some very shaky propositions - it all appears to be sourced but when you look more carefully it doesn't really fit together. This article misleads the reader through use of selective sources --SandyDancer 16:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mount Pleasant sorting office picture

message: Not sure why this edit adds a  to "whose name is likely to have originated from one of these places" as Mills (who it is attributed to) and Smith both confirm this. MRSC • Talk 17:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. I will remove the fact tag. Sorry, my mistake. --SandyDancer 18:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymology

message: See Elephant and Castle - an article which begins "The Elephant and Castle, commonly shortened to the Elephant, is a major road intersection in inner south London, and is also used as a name for the surrounding district."
Why can't we include the same form of words in the Farringdon Station article, or failing that in a Farringdon, London? Seems a good solution to me... --SandyDancer 12:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Elephant and Castle