Talk:Vladimir Putin/Archive 3

message: I agree that these are important things to discuss in this article, but they do need moved into the appropriate section, rather than clogging the intro. Discuss. Ender78 (talk) 17:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chechen Invasion & KGB History in Initial Paragraphs 

message: Another editor changed a couple things relating to the precise verbiage of Putin's notability vis a vis being a former President of Russia. Since US Presidents are generally denoted by their order, I've reverted and preserved my original edits on that front. Ender78 (talk) 06:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "2nd Russian President" or "Former President of Russia" 

message: Is he? I thought that there's a new one?
There is now. Edited. Ender78 (talk) 06:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Vladimir... is the president" 

message: It is one thing to archive portions of a talk page... the oldest portions.  It is quite another to white wash the whole talk page, as Muscovite99 has done twice now.  I have never seen this done any where else in Wikipedia, and it is inappropriate. Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 12:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As i can see you are simply expressing your private opinion, which i can presume is due to bad mood or perhaps undernourishment. What is inappropriate is your language (such as "whitewashing") and undue personal attacks. I am archiving the past discussion that is not being discussed. A perfectly legitimate procedure.Muscovite99 (talk) 16:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Frjohnwhiteford. Muscovite99, please note that guesses like "due to bad mood or perhaps undernourishment" is nothing else but personal attack. Whereas "white washing" is quite appropriate. It is a stretch to call use of words "white wash" a personal attack. There are archival guidelines, so Frjohnwhiteford expressed the opinion of the community. 71.139.15.108 (talk) 13:29, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stop White Washing the Talk Page 

message: Hi All
As I view it when you click show on the Russia Chechen Conflict box at the bottom, you have to click show again in the next line to actually see the table.  When you click hide it also hides the Times Person of the Year box.  Does everyone have this problem?  Can someone who better understands boxs fix it please?
Thanks
John
CaptinJohn (talk) 17:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wiki Foo 

message: The image is changing almost each day. We should, at last, choose something. 
*:Image:Putin (cropped).jpg
My vote. His face is seen there well and right in front, as it is used for most of portraits in bio articles. (George W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, Angela Merkel as examples)Garret Beaumain (talk) 20:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We need a picture of Putin showing his whole face, and some of his upper body would also be nice. I personally hate the picture that we currently have, and I don't think it represents Putin. Apart from that its not really a good photograph.76.174.200.215 (talk) 04:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The background is too "dreamy". It seems like joke now, and his facial expression doesn't help! Mr. E. Sánchez (talk) 21:54, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: not sure if anyone has noticed, but according to the wiki-summary of putin, one of his children is britney spear's sister..  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.65.28.132 (talk) 20:27, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  putin's children 

message: Here:
:: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7262661.stm
Dpotop (talk) 15:44, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nice coverage on news.bbc.co.uk 

message: This article reads like a birthday card to Putin from the FSB. 
Nuqe (talk) 07:41, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is too long because we needed to NPOV by including all POVs. We need a new perspective, eg an opinion by a neutral Western observer. Unfortunately, I myself only have Dutch language sources here. "Poetins Erfdeel" (=Putin's Legacy) by Marie-Thérèse ter Haar, a professor of Slavic languages, may be a good start-off. Because of this blog entry where a reader criticised Ter Haar for being too pro-Putin and referred to Koen Schoors, a professor of economics who knows Russia from a non-political angle, I had a look for this Koen Schoors. The Belgian newspaper De Morgen, on February 29 (page 16) published an interview with him. Perhaps - PietervHuis can find a library near his home which stocks the newspaper or has an electronic subscription (it is a Dutch language newspaper, after all). Alternatively, people may be able to download this (could later be asking for a password, though, as it is the online version, the PDF version on the left of the name of the interviewing journalist will not load, I suppose - for those who can load it, the Dutch title means "Specialist on Russia: Europe ignores all signs of Russian goodwill"). Note that Koen Schoors also includes some criticism. Lack of press freedom is one (may be a problem to NPOV because, in my humble opinion, it is the direct result of Putin's actions against the oligarchs, who before him controlled all media in Russia - but can we source that?). Schoors (in this interview at least) does not mention Putin's St Petersburg connections, which constitute a notable fact, if only because it illustrates Putin's history as a poacher turned gendarme or game keeper (may explain part of his popularity, by the way). Schoors also holds the controversial opinion (controversial because here both Putin haters and Putin fans seem to believe he is popular because of the Chechnya war) that the Chechnya war is still very unpopular with ordinary Russians, and that Putin is popular despite of the war. I suppose the contrary POV will not be difficult to source ;>). --Paul Pieniezny (talk) 09:32, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias 

message: He's still the President of Russia until Medvedev actually takes power, isn't he?  Fishal (talk) 07:10, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Former president? 

message: Also we should remove the Prime Minister-designate section from the Infobox & succession box. As Medvedev hasn't nominated Putin for prime minister (he can't until he becomes President). GoodDay (talk) 20:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Prime Minister-designate?

message: Amazing. Well, maybe he right when saying nothing bad happened during his term, after all. (Oh, no matter thousands people killed in Chechnya, almost all of them Russian citiziens, it was a great success.)
Here's an article for you: It's an example. Or just google for "kursk" and "putin".  --84.234.60.154 (talk) 12:13, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not about these incidents just happening during his rule out of bad luck, but about how they were handled and why they were able to occur. Putin, being the head government official and the one whose job it is to enforce the laws of the constitution, is also responsible for what happened. 74.92.98.73 (talk) 20:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beslan mentioned only once and in literally two words? No mention of Moscow gas attack and Kursk disaster at all? 

message: I am removing the following  from the top of the References and Notes section. On my computer it creates weird display for the with two vertical scroll bars on the right and one (disabled)  horizontal scroll bar in the bottom. It certainly is not helpful. Anyway I think that all non-standard page formatting are not suitable for the article space. We should strive to format articles uniformly Alex Bakharev (talk) 12:22, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formatting of References and Notes section 

message: The sources 11 is quite questionable. 11 is that of an anti-communist organization. It would naturally make sense for them to label Vladmir Putin as KGB as it would work towards their own POV. Consider deleting this source reference as it can be argued to have a biased perspective.
--216.229.227.141 (talk) 00:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable Source 

message: Do we really need such a huge lead with the almost complete resume starting from the education over all the position he held? It just duplicats the biographe section. Also do we need a long POVed evaluation of his work as president? It is warranted to be controversial. Can we just say Putin is the second Russian president 2000-2008? Alex Bakharev (talk) 10:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahaha Miyokan I liked how you reverted all my edits with the reason how it's supposed to be my own personal bias. That wasn't the reason, just that you're pretty bad at writing leads, stuff like how he's "intelligent, tough, and hard-working" really doesn't belong there. I'm glad you realize the introduction is wrong, but now you've replaced it with one that is too short (per WP:LEAD) so I'll restore the one Garret Beaumain made. - PietervHuis (talk) 12:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: PietervHuis please take it somewhere else. Wikipedia is not a battleground. Your biased editing and constant trolling are unappreciated and not helpful at all for the wiki community. Krawndawg (talk) 18:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Coming from you that makes me laugh. It's exactly what you've been doing recently. - PietervHuis (talk) 20:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Pieter, Wikipedia is not a battleground, this is not the place for you to express your political biases. I reinstated the lead since Pietervhuis decided to reinsert his version which is almost word for word the same as the "Brief biography" section.--Miyokan (talk) 10:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Miyokan, Wikipedia is not a battleground, this is not the place for you to express your political biases. I didn't insert "my" version but one made by another. The "brief biography" section was created by you recently and now the intro is too long again, and now there's two introductions. But whatever if you want it to be a mess, so be it. - PietervHuis (talk) 12:19, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Coming back here after some time, I agree with the viewpoint that the lead is way too long. Say where he was born and why he is noteworthy. An inline reference to the "alternative" Georgian version about his origins should start from the lead as well. All the other personal things belong in the biography. And as he is leaving soon, the article will need trimming. If he really is marrying this gymnast, a lot of the other things mentioned here (like that little boy's belly thing) pale in comparison and should go under WP:UNDUE. Surely, in five years' time people will still remember the gymnast's story, but a few of these other "big" facts and/or controversies would never be mentioned in a normal encyclopedia. --Paul Pieniezny (talk) 10:17, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

text: I've added links you have ruined with your edit war.Garret Beaumain (talk) 17:47, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

text: He won a lot of popularity with the campaign, in russia, your version says so too. You can change it to "helped him win the elections" if that bothers you for example. You've replaced it with your own introduction again which is a bit on the big side, and includes a lot of details that are best to be kept out of the lead and elaborated on in the rest of the article. - PietervHuis (talk) 16:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead 

message: This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of April 15, 2008, compares against the  six good article criteria:
:1. Well written?: Fail, needs consistency throughout
:2. Factually accurate?: Fail, needs many more references using cite templates
:3. Broad in coverage?: Pass
:4. Neutral point of view?: Possible fail, I do not know much about Russia, however, some of these things could be in violation of NPOV
:5. Article stability? Fail, look at the length of the talk page!
:6. Images?: Pass
This article will need a lot of work before another GAN. Even then, because of its instability, it may not pass.
When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated.  If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it have it reassessed.  Thank you for your work so far.</div>— Southern Illinois SKYWARN (talk) 02:47, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Factually inaccurate? Hmmm... Is 290+ references not enough? Cfeet77 (talk) 14:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Failed "good article" nomination 

message: Hallelujah! They made Vova do it! He is United Russia member . Garret Beaumain (talk) 12:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Party 

message: A number of Russian blogs are now saying that Kabayeva's spokeswoman has said "We will not comment, but if Moskovsky Korrespondent does not print a denial by Wednesday/Thursday, we will sue".
However, today the British Independent says
:When the newspaper's journalists contacted Ms Kabayeva's spokeswoman this week, she told them she had to think before replying. Several hours later, she responded that Ms Kabayeva had no comment. 
:"We are not going to comment on this nonsense," the spokeswoman said when contacted by The Independent yesterday. When asked whether or not Mr Putin and Ms Kabayeva were friends, she paused before saying that any questions should be addressed to the presidential press service. 
()
Does not sound like threatening to sue. However, my gut feeling still is that the marriage part is a canard (utka). Any believable good source reporting Kabayeva or her spokeswoman threatening to sue, should in my view be immediately quoted and a phrase about it added to that short paragraph.
Under BLP concerns, I suggest it is perhaps better to replace the Telegraph quote by the Independent one. The Telegraph is sometimes felt to be a bit too sensationalist anyway (in other countries than the UK, its style would classify it as a semi-tabloid). --Paul Pieniezny (talk) 07:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Denial by Alina Kabayeva? 

message: 2.  Q. In a 2003 BBC online poll, more than 7,000 respondents agreed that Dobby the House Elf, as depicted in the movie adaptation of Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, bore a striking resemblance to what world leader?  
   A. Vladimir Putin 
Where would this information go?
Duinemerwen (talk) 01:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the info on Pope Benedict and Harry Potter (that is also a question in that quizz) is included in an article called Theology of Pope Benedict XVI, so, obviously and logically, your info belongs in an article Physiognomy of Vladimir Putin - I wish you good luck with that article but hope you will find a better source, for a quizz questionnaire about a poll (an online poll even, and you know how that can be manipulated) does not look very trustworthy. No, this is not a joke, since there have been others trying to put info about his physiognomy in this article. And this one is obviously far less notable than his height. Sorry. --Paul Pieniezny (talk) 12:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Putin vs. dobby the house elf? 

message: As there is no reliable source to support claims of immense wealth, that is nothing more than a gossip, and should be removed as per WP:BLP. Those who want to restore it, please show this is anything more than a gossip. I hope, dear editors, you find it fair and following WP policies. Thank you. Kulikovsky (talk) 16:24, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do you think the sources provided are not reliable?  I've reverted your edit. --NeilN talk ♦ contribs 16:35, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Since not a single reliable source has been presented. I think it would be better if you started with presenting one. Thanks for asking. Kulikovsky (talk) 16:40, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why are the Guardian and Washington Post not reliable sources? --NeilN talk ♦ contribs 16:44, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Where exactly either one says that claims are true? Kulikovsky (talk) 18:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

text:  Guardian and Washington Post do not speak on behalf of themselves, but rather present an opinion of Rybkin and Belkovsky. These people are not credible. Cfeet77 (talk) 18:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Ok, so no reliable source says this is truth. Would you agree? I see it as a gossip, therefore, and per WP:BLP gossip should be avoided in BLP. And that makes perfect sense to me. WP is not a place to collect gossips. Kulikovsky (talk) 18:37, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd go with the version NeilN was inserting, personally. They don't need to say its absolute truth as verified by them, only that it is alleged and by whom and based on what - if we don't go beyond the source, then we should include both the allegation and the response (sourced and NPOV) rather than just a rather POV frame for a rebuttal by Putin. Incidentally, I've reported the edit war to RPP and you should note that at least one or two of you may be blocked for violation of WP:3RR. Avruch  T   18:41, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.Biophys (talk) 19:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

text: I am fine with dropping Putin's rebuttal, if that what you meant as your second best choice. Thank you. Kulikovsky (talk) 18:56, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gossips do not belong here 

message: http://www.iie.com/publications/opeds/oped.cfm?ResearchID=857 :
This article refers to opinions of Rybkin and Belkovsky as a source of allegations. Washington Post does not speak on behalf of itself, nor does Aslund. Nowhere they assert that the claim is verified or that they endorse the claim. And Belkovsky and Rybkin alone are not credible.
http://newsru.com/finance/01nov2007/gunvor.html :
This article puts the term "friend of Putin" into quotes, thus questioning the term. It quotes anonymous sources as a source of the claim. Nowhere they assert that the claim is verified or that they endorse the claim.
http://newsru.com/russia/17dec2007/putin40.html#2 :
This article quotes Belkovsky as a source of the claim. The editorial staff does not speak on behalf of itself. Nowhere they assert that the claim is verified or that they endorse the claim. And Belkovsky alone is not credible.
http://allcred.ru/2007/12/16/mn222.html :
This source (allcred.ru) is not reputable.
Exceptional claims require exceptional sources as per WP:Verifiability.
Please read the WP rules first before you insert encyclopedic content of this kind into WP next time.
Cfeet77 (talk) 19:03, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The ties are poorly sourced, the allegations of the ties are not. One of the principles of Wikipedia is "Verifiability, not truth". The allegations are notable as allegations and can safely be presented as such. We are not entitled to decide whether the allegations are true or false, but it doesn't matter. Colchicum (talk) 19:17, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

text: "Opinions of Rybkin and Belkovsky" are not "a source of allegations", they are the allegations themselves, and to my knowledge it has never been questioned that Rybkin and Belkovsky actually made that claim. There is absolutely no problem with verifiability. Colchicum (talk) 19:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I feel that giving space to such allegations in the article intro violates the undue weight policy. And remember that WP:BLP requires sources concerning living persons to be of particularly high quality. This is not the case here in my opinion. Cfeet77 (talk) 19:24, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you seen this discussion: Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Vladimir_Putin? Others don't seem to share your opinion. However, I agree that the text should be reworded and presented as allegations made by certain persons.Colchicum (talk) 19:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: On the noticeboard your are referring to this opinion has quite a good deal of support. Cfeet77 (talk) 20:06, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No editor among those who haven't previously been involved in the dispute has found the text objectionable. The position of Cfeet77, Kulikovsky and Krawndawg is well-known and hardly surprising. Colchicum (talk) 20:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It puzzles me a bit. Are we doing some majority voting here, or are we trying to establish what the WP rules themselves have to say on the situation? In other words, can be outvote WP rules and do things we want only if the majority agrees, even if this violates the WP rules? I would like to ask your opinion on the following matter: do you think that the "undue weight" rule was violated by quoting Rybkin and Belkovsky in the article intro or not? Cfeet77 (talk) 12:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: 1) Talking about rules? If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article — even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. (WP:BLP) Note: it is the allegation that should be well-documented rather than the alleged fact. And it is. The uninvolved editors (Merzbow and JoshuaZ) have been unanimous. 2) Yes, the intro is way too long and doesn't comply with the Manual of Style. However, it means that this information (as well as the praise) should be moved down rather than removed. Colchicum (talk) 13:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Moving it down sounds good for me. What does not sound good for me is that the opinion of Rybkin and Belkovsky is given way too much space in this article. First they claim some outrageous Putin's wealth, now it turns out they also claim some ties with Timchenko etc. It all sounds like a gossip to a well-informed mind. Does it mean that if these guys say something of similar kind about Putin next time, we will be obliged (according to your logic) to insert their published and well-documented opinion into this article? I don't think so. Not only it violates the "undue weight" policy. But these guys don't give us any idea from which fence they have grabbed their allegations. They don't give us any proof. Their claims are of marginal quality. And WP policy "exceptional claims require exceptional sources" require us to provide high-quality sources for unusual claims. Wealth allegations and allegations of ties with Timchenko etc. are unusual and are therefore exceptional. Cfeet77 (talk) 16:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not "my logic", it is WP:BLP, literally. Also let me remind you that we have WP:BLP for two reasons only: to make no harm and to avoid being sued. As to any harm, the allegations have already been published worldwide, it doesn't make any difference here. As it have been stated that these are allegations, and their existence is reliably documented, Wikipedia cannot be sued for them. There is no other reason to refer to WP:BLP. The claims that Rybkin and Belkovsky made these allegations are not exceptional. Colchicum (talk) 16:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

text: There is no problem with verifiability. There is some problem with credibility. I can make a claim that, say, Earth is a cube. I can make it verifiable that I made that claim. Should verifiability alone in this case be the basis for inserting my claim into WP? I don't think so. Cfeet77 (talk) 19:29, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, only if you are a former secretary of the Security Council of Russia and your opinion is often mentioned in mainstream Western media. Colchicum (talk) 19:35, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am a regular reader of the western press and their coverage of events in Russia and I have not noticed that Rybkin and Belkovsky have a citation index of any significance. Rybkin was a creature of Berezovsky when he got his post in the Security Council. Cfeet77 (talk) 12:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Putin was a secretary of the same Security Council and a creature of Berezovsky as well, so we could safely dismiss him as a pimp. But this is not relevant here. Have you ever googled for putin timchenko -wikipedia? Helsingin Sanomat, The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph, The Times, The Washington Post, let alone Russian newspapers, have all noticed these allegations. Colchicum (talk) 13:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Still I am not convinced that Rybkin (let alone Belkovsky) is a notable person, especially nowadays, and that his opinion is notable. Cfeet77 (talk) 16:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you don't think so, but The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph, The Times and The Washington Post do. I can't help here. Colchicum (talk) 16:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, ok, let it be so. You might be right and I might be wrong. But you know what? I've been living in the Soviet times back then. And Soviet propaganda will always make it so that they will pick a marginal anti-American politician living in the US and widely promote his opinion in the Soviet media and even represent it as a mainstream opinion of the US politicians. Sadly, this is what I see happening with British and American media nowadays. Does this mean that the Soviet propaganda methodology was successfully transferred to the British and American media? Frankly, I would not like to be right in my judgment, by the facts speak for themselves. Cfeet77 (talk) 16:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

text: I just want to point out right now that there is currently a reference to a self described "russophobe" blog supporting some of those claims that a previous user was trying to remove earlier. I think that is quite reflective of the state this article is in, as well as the type of editors who are deciding the "consensus". Krawndawg (talk) 00:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

text: I've removed poorly sourced sentences along with unreliable sources as per WP:BLP and placed a dubious tag on the other claim about his ties as it is currently presented as fact and should not be. Krawndawg (talk) 00:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This link only serves to provide English translation of the original reliable   Russian source. This is fine per WP policies. It does not support anything.Biophys (talk) 01:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The link cannot be trusted as a legit translation for obvious reasons and should not be reinserted. Krawndawg (talk) 01:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Links to blogs cannot be used as a source in WP no matter what they are referring to by themselves. Cfeet77 (talk) 12:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Please read Wikipedia:Sources#Non-English_sources. Someone simply provided a link to translation instead of giving translation himself. This is not forbidden by any WP rules (the original reliable source is Russian). Do you want me to start working seriously with this article? I did not plan that. But this is not a problem having "Age of assassins" with me.Biophys (talk) 01:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that whoever runs that blog could easily alter the translation however he pleases. It is not reliable and should not be linked to anywhere on this page. I'll take that second comment as a blatant threat to push an anti-Putin agenda and disrupt the credibility of this article. Absolutely unacceptable. Krawndawg (talk) 02:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What "anti-Putin agenda" and what "blatant threat"? I am talking about using a reliable secondary source here. This is written by a prominent historian Felstinsky and political scientist Pribylovsky. I simply do not know any source better about Putin's presidency.Biophys (talk) 02:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A blog cannot be used as a reliable source. Cfeet77 (talk) 12:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

text: There are plenty of reliable sources that are anti-Putin, I didn't say anything about the validity of the source. Threatening to give undue weight to such material written by political descendants, when there is already a substantial amount of such material in the article, is not acceptable. Your threat had absolutely nothing to do with what we were discussing and was clearly an attempt to intimidate. wikipedia is not a battleground, nor is it a place to settle personal grudges against editors. Please read Wikipedia:Etiquette. Krawndawg (talk) 02:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I only proposed to improve this article using a reliable source but received that kind of reply. Sorry, but I am not going to continue this.Biophys (talk) 02:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you threatened to push an agenda using a single anti-Putin source. Once again, your threat was completely unwarranted and had nothing to do with what we were discussing. You basically said "If you don't let me do X, then I'm going to do Y to get back at you". Krawndawg (talk) 02:36, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Speaking of manner of communication, it would be extremely helpful if you would refrain from responding to everyone you disagree with using ad hominem, personal attacks and derogatory comments. I'm not quite sure what someones "pals at the disco" have to do with improving this article. Krawndawg (talk) 21:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

text: regarding your removal of the sentence about the oligarchs strong ties to the Kremlin: The very first sentence in the BBC article calls Berezovsky a "Kremlin insider". Krawndawg (talk) 21:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

text: I understand your comments concerning "pals at the disco" are of approximately same quality as articles by Edward Lucas and André Glucksmann about Russia, Kremlin and Putin. So no surprise here, as all these things seem to fall within the same category. If this comment was meant to be insulting, then it is about the same as Cheney's Lithuania speech which was compared to an unsuccessful hunting shot I think. Cfeet77 (talk) 17:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Allegations of ties with Timchenko etc. are poorly sourced 

message: I have noticed that some wikipedians involved in editing this article have been repeatedly inclined to use the following formulation:
 This was presented by X as Y
whenever they want to emphasize that the fact Y presented by X does not deserve attention in their opinion or that it is dubious in their opinion. I feel that this is their way to attempt to undermine value of the information presented by X with regard to the fact Y.
I would appreciate if we all write in neutral tone according to WP:NPOV#Fairness_of_tone. While this is a subtle observation, it can be clearly tracked to certain users and their activities.
Cfeet77 (talk) 11:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wording "this was presented by X as Y" has derogatory meaning 

message: I feel that a certain group of editors have been recently engaged into adding a terrible anti-Putin bias into the article introduction. To start with, what this doubtful and poorly sourced corruption data has to do with Putin? And why it should be put into the article intro? And even if there is some relation between the two, why some editors will consistently remove Putin's own words on corruption where he admits that this indeed was a major problem during his both terms?
I also see some bigger issues with decision-making procedures in this article. I see that some patterns for pushing own agenda emerge here, and I don't see that these patterns are in accordance with WP policies.
Usually the pattern is as follows: Some loud and aggressive editor will be most insistent with pushing his anti-Putin agenda, no matter how credible this agenda is. Any attempts to stop him and remove dubious material from the article by reverting his edits thus enforcing WP:BLP will meet outrageous resistance and consistent reverts. His activity will meet faint support from the rest of the anti-Putin camp, and the only criteria for such support will be that the agenda being pushed is anti-Putin, not that the agenda meets WP quality standards. Sometimes a patrol user with semi-admin privileges like User:NeilN will come and try to silence Putin proponents who are diligently trying to enforce WP policies by threatening to report their alleged misbehaviour on the admin noticeboard, while engaging into edit warring by himself. He will do this even if no misbehaviour effectively occurred.
Sometimes this same aggressive user who initiated pushing own agenda will insert a neutrality tag into the article, and the only purpose of such insertion will be to invite the rest of "editorial staff" to the talk page for the purposes of engaging them into flame war by making personal derogative comments that are meant to be insulting.
Sometimes s/he will try to move core content of the article about Putin that s/he dislikes to some irrelevant article like "Foreign Relations of Russia", arguing that the article about Putin is too big. Interestingly, the article size does not prevent him from inserting own bias. Sometimes he will try to make such move in two steps, first adding a reference to the relevant section of the article about Putin of this kind: "Main article: Foreign Relations of Russia" and second moving the core content to the alleged "main article".
Sometimes s/he will try to remove good references supporting some claim one by one. When there are no more references left, the claim will be removed as "poorly sourced", even if the claim originally abounded with high-quality references.
Finally, polite and intelligent editors feel they are tired of resisting a hooligan who has such widespread support, they give up and the hooligan wins by having his agenda pushed into the article. S/he will then claim that "consensus was reached", even though in practice it meant that other editors felt mentally exhausted and unable to continue. The rest of the anti-Putin camp feels inner satisfaction and it completely ignores the doubtful ethics used to achieve the goal. I understand that double standards is one of the most favourite practices of some considerable part of the western society, but think how poor will be the opinion of the rest of the civilized world concerning those who apply such practices?
Hey guys, I am asking you, is this what Jimmy Wales meant WP to be? I thought WP was meant to be a reputable source of information rather than a test bed for new types of brainwashing technologies.
Cfeet77 (talk) 21:37, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Users might direct this entire essay you've written to you as well. The "stop pushing your personal agenda" argument comes from both sides. - PietervHuis (talk) 22:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed they might, but unlike me they cannot do this in an evidentiary way (i.e. supporting diffs as a proof of their words etc). Cfeet77 (talk) 22:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

text: And yes, I also mean the atmosphere of mental terrorism that some aggressive users are trying to maintain on this talk page and in their article edit comments. Cfeet77 (talk) 23:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

text: There's nothing wrong with pushing "own" agenda if the manner of doing so complies with WP policies. Questionable means of pushing questionable agenda is the real issue I was covering in this essay. Cfeet77 (talk) 23:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree with User:Cfeet77 on many great points he made. Kulikovsky (talk) 19:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Allegations of corruption, local decision-making 

message: Krawndawg, please stop marking reverts as minor edits. Per Help:Minor edit they are not minor. Colchicum (talk) 00:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure thing. This should have been directed to my talk page though, as it has nothing to do with the article. Krawndawg (talk) 02:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor edits? 

message: Hey, Everyone! Is there anyone missing the point Putin is NOT a prime minister yet? Can't you wait for a media report informing us about the matter before rushing to update the info box? What the hell? Don't put the cart before the horse.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.135.37.3 (talk) 02:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's already been stated that he will take the post. I've put him now as PM-designate though. Therequiembellishere (talk) 02:38, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I will change that to "nominee" for now since he has not been approved yet. Fair enough?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.135.37.3 (talk) 02:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  NOT a Prime Minister 

message: How tall is he? --70.167.58.6 (talk) 14:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personal stats? 

message: As regards Krawn's comment «restoring sourced content (please don't call it misleading when you are ill informed on the subject» () when putting back ludicrous statistics from "Western hysterical cold-war media" (his terminology -- See above ), he should be calling "ill informed" Mr Putin as the data presented are directly attributable to him in his official speech and posted on his official site. Any one who has been ever tangentially following Putin's utterings for the past 8 years (Krawn apparently hasn't as he is overly informed as he is), knows that back in 2000 Putin set an ambitious task to DOUBLE Russia's GDP by 2010 (See here 7th para from top ). Now, in February this year, Putin himself bragged that «GDP has grown 72 percent since 2000» () and added that the task of doubling the GDP, if all goes well, will have been achieved by 2009. And now, you're pushing some Igor Fedyukin's figures from September 2007. And the figure plucked from  MSNBC wiretape was written by some one who (CIA or not) is an absolute ignoramus. Also, putting an excusing term "nominal GDP" is wrong because the source speaks of "GDP", or perhaps even "average GDP" («Average wages rose eightfold during Putin's eight years as president, from roughly $80 a month to $640, and GDP sixfold.») -- whatever that may mean amongst CIA-connected cold-war hysterics Muscovite99 (talk) 16:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Muscovite, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and I don't feel it's my job to educate you. Please learn about economics before you go editing articles and removing correct and reliably sourced data. That is why WP:V specifically says you cannot remove reliably sourced data because you think it's wrong. Biophys, you agree with Muscovites violation of 3rr, WP:V and removal of mostly positive material without consensus? Why doesn't that surprise me? Please stop wikistalking me and involving yourself in every conversation and article that I am involved it. It's creepy. Krawndawg (talk) 16:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Krawn, this is not about economics -- it is about your pushing some utter bilge from Fedyukin and some AP hacks into the article about the President of a great power, instead of giving him the righ to present his very official economic data. See the source -- if are not educated enough to read Russian (a very beautiful language that Putin and the KGB speak), read the excerpts on the Chinese wire (second link).Muscovite99 (talk) 16:48, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you even read my version? It includes both those figures. 72% PPP growth = 6 fold nominal growth. 150% real wage growth = 8 fold nominal growth. There is nothing at all misleading about giving both figures and presenting the data exactly as it is. Please learn about Purchasing Power Parity and different types of GDP measurements. And also people don't normally refer to nominal GDP as nominal because it's automatially assumed. PPP is a theory of measurement.Krawndawg (talk) 16:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Your AP source does not say "8 fold NOMINAL growth" -- please read it. The hacks you quote have absolutely no idea what they're writing about. Also, why would any one be bothered to know the "nominal" figres -- putin does not cite those. What those figures apparently mean is that back in 1999 a barrel of Urals traded at about $8 and 8 years later -- at about 15 (!) times that, likewise natural gas and most other raw materials -- major export articles and currency earners for the state budget. Now, this is just a mountain of US cash that is heaping on the heads of RF government -- this is not GDP, it is Federal Reserve's printing press. Putin was shrewd enough to salt away most of this cash, recycling it into the US government bonds (thus financing the US gigantic budget and trade dificits). Most likely this was part of his deal with the US government from the very beginning. In return there was probably a promise not to publicese a plethora of documents about his involvemet in criminal activities in Europe in the 1990-s and of course there was "I-looked-into-his-eyes-and-saw" compliment from top man on the global totem post.Muscovite99 (talk) 17:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What the heck are you ranting about? That's a very interesting opinion, but wikipedia is not a soap box or blog, nor is it the place for original research. You're only digging yourself deeping and proving that you really don't understand economics. Those "hacks" are professionals, and you are not. Their word is taken over yours. If you think the Associated Press is an unreliable source, bring it up at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. If you can convince them that the source is unreliable, I promise you I'll never argue about it again. Until then, please stop breaking wikipedia policy, and revert yourself. Krawndawg (talk) 17:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

text: *Agree with Muscovite. Moreover, all or almost all economic data should be removed from this article as irrelevant per comments by Colchicum above.Biophys (talk) 16:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Since I did not hear any objections, I removed this POV fork to article Economy of Russia.Biophys (talk) 19:10, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You heard objections from me, and two other users in the section above. Further, you reverted back to a version that removes all of the intro fixes, no doubt on purpose. I am in the middle of reporting you to an admin, so I suggest you revert yourself. Krawndawg (talk) 19:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Krawndawg's economic data

message: Krawn Dawg has been deleting Criticism of Putin's administration, while not deleting the positive news.  His argument is that my references do not mention the word "Putin".  Any reasonable person would admit that if the positive news is added in edits, then the criticism should also be added.  
here is my edit:  During his rule, russia's population continued to fall at an alarming rate to 142 million by the end of 2007.[13], concentration of wealth and income inequality skyrocketed, agriculture and industry stagnated, with industrial production in 2007 a mere 72% compared to that in 1991 after soviet dissolution [14], and human trafficking of women and children for sexual exploitation continued unabated, with russia accounting dominant portion of the estimated 2.45 million trafficked humans. [15]
Here is the positive edit inserted by others:  During his eight years in office, the economy bounced back from crisis seeing GDP increase six-fold (72% in PPP),[6][7] poverty more than halve[8][9][10] and average monthly salaries increase from $80 to $640, or by 150% in real rates, with Russia becoming the 7th largest economy in the world (in PPP terms).[6][11] According to the Federal State Statistics Service, the middle class grew from 8 million to 55 million between 2000 – 2006.[12].  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Samstayton (talk • contribs) 22:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It was explained on your talk page that your sources do not connect those facts with Putin. Therefore there are no grounds to put add this info to the article. Moreover, you added it to the lead, which was even more inappropriate. Of course, we should not add material about changes in Russia be they positive or negative if there is no reliable source attributing them to Putin. I would also like to ask you to assume good faith. Does it make sense? Kulikovsky (talk) 23:05, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

text: It is not my logic that connects the two, but sources. For what it is worth, I am not satisfied at all about proof, if any, those sources show that big positive changes in Russia is specifically Putin's achievement. Kulikovsky (talk) 23:28, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Selective/Fraudulant Editing by Krawn Dawg 

message: I am suspicious that Kulikovsky and Krawn Dog might be one and same person.  kulikovsky again deleted the negative news selectively. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Samstayton (talk • contribs) 
:Two users deleting contentious original research from a biography of a living person, and you suspect sockpuppet? Funny. I suggest you take your complaint to Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets. But I'd also suggest you read WP:BLP and WP:OR instead, so you can understand why the material you added cannot be left in the article. Krawndawg (talk) 12:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Samstayton, I think you are mistaken. If you want to ask checkuser, you should ask about Krawndawng and User:Sbw01f. Biophys (talk) 17:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Stop trolling, that user hasn't even edited in this article. Wikipedia is not a battleground, keep personal grudges to yourself. Krawndawg (talk) 22:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Selective/Fradulant Deletio by Kulikovsky 

message: This is just a friendly reminder of a Wikipedia policy since so many Russian sources have been used in the article. 
WP:VUE:
Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. Where editors use non-English sources, they should ensure that readers can verify for themselves the content of the original material and the reliability of its author/publisher. 
Where editors use a non-English source to support material that others might challenge, or translate any direct quote, they need to quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article, so readers can check that it agrees with the article content. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors.
:Thank you for your reminder. We know the rules. This is an article about a Russian leader and there are at times no English sources of similar quality. Many of them have a big deal of anti-Russian bias. Is this some smart way to push POV into the article? Cfeet77 (talk) 18:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Just as how Russian sources can be called "pro putin". - PietervHuis (talk) 21:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-English sources 

message: I have removed the following fragment:
:His mothers surname, Shelom from Shelomovich is jewish. His paternal Grandfather Spiridon, is also a jewFirst Person (Paperback) by Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin (Author), Nataliia Gevorkian (Author), Natalia Timakova (Author), A.V. Kolesnikov (Author), Catherine A. Fitzpatrick (Author) at Amazon.com
The full text of Ot pervogo litsa is available at  there is no traces of this information Alex Bakharev (talk) 12:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish grandparents 

message: "the economy bounced back from crisis seeing GDP increase six-fold " is biased POV. This part of sentence uses nominal GDP that is not adjusted for inflation. For NPOV presentation, the sentence should refer to real GDP figures. --Doopdoop (talk) 21:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a fact, so I am not sure where "biased POV" comes from. Do you have inflation-adjusted numbers or whatever you prefer to see there? Kulikovsky (talk) 21:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Inflation adjusted numbers are already there (PPP). Krawndawg (talk) 00:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What I wonder is if the number "six-fold" is taken from the year 1999 on. Based on your graph, the GDP grew six fold from 1999 on, while "only" five-fold from 2000 on, the year in which Putin became president. Also in your graph "putin years" start at 2000, while he was elected in March to be precise. - PietervHuis (talk) 01:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: All I did was copy the source. Putins term didn't end in January 2008, that figure probably counts all the way up to May when the article was written. GDP grew 8% in Q1 2008. Also IMF estimates support that it grew 6-fold as of April 2008 if you keep in mind that their growth estimates were shy 1.2%.Krawndawg (talk) 14:02, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Pieter, please look at this interesting source. It explains contribution of Putin to Russian economy.Biophys (talk) 03:50, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Well, it sounds like it is easy to correct. Kulikovsky (talk)  —Preceding comment was added at 17:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait a minute I think I misunderstood you. Are complaining that it says "GDP grew 6-fold" instead of "Nominal GDP grew 6-fold"? If that's the case, just correct it! That's what I originally had but muscovite deleted it because the referenced article didn't use the word "nominal" thus making it "original research" according to him. Krawndawg (talk) 20:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I am complaining that "Nominal gdp grew 6-fold" is POV. GDP growth figures should be inflation adjusted when talking about economic performance. --Doopdoop (talk) 20:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like you're trying to POV push now. Both figures are equally important for different reasons, and thus both should be mentioned. Read this, which bluntly states: "Market exchange rates are the logical choice when financial flows are involved." I find it mind boggling how you could call statistic figures POV, especially when both are presented side-by-side. What nonsense. Krawndawg (talk) 17:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: IMF's article is about comparing different countries, this article is about Russia only, and currency conversions are irrelevant. Inflation adjusted GDP figures in local currency should be used. --Doopdoop (talk) 21:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Vladamir Putin" article is about "Russia only" is it? Additionally, why would anyone care about the Russian GDP in rubles (which probably grew more than 6 fold due to the collapse of the ruble) Krawndawg (talk) 22:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyway your IMF source talks about real GDP growth, and never mentions nominal GPD growth. --Doopdoop (talk) 19:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV problem 

message: The oligarchs matter is discussed in intro in length that give it undue weight. More important matters, such as internal policy in general as well as foreign policy are hardly covered at all. For the record, I am talking about this version of the article: . I do not see oligarchs topic as central to the article. Thank you. Kulikovsky (talk) 20:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the oligarchs topic needs to be removed, but you see what is the problem. I suppose some Yeltsin-era oligarchs still have large financial assets at their disposal. No wonder if we find out one day that they have some WP editors on their payroll who constantly add bias that is favourable for the above mentioned oligarchs. What can we do? We are not on anybody's payroll, and our disputing resources are limited. Cfeet77 (talk) 08:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV dispute - lead 

message: In the interests of getting this article back on track, I've archived the talk page into Archive 3.
Clean slate, folks. Let's try to get over the content disputes and produce a good article. Ender78 (talk) 21:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving Talks, both Old and Current 

message: It is clear from the issues with this article and from the talk and controversies arising thereof that Vladimir Putin is not only a topic that is not "going away", but also one that is seen very, very differently by folks from different nationalities and backgrounds. It is equally clear that the Putin era will be regarded by future historians as a watershed moment in Russian history, likely discussing things in a context of "Before Putin" and "After Putin". This is all fine, but at the same time, our job here is to keep the matter factual, informative, and easy to read.Ender78 (talk) 21:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ongoing Content Issues 

message: Please discuss here what needs done with the introduction, bearing in mind that the entire point to an introduction is brevity and clarity in explaining the content to be covered later in the article. Ender78 (talk) 21:32, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: * I guess I understand why a recent change has been made. It looked to me the second paragraph was a little bit more devoted to negative rather than positive. So, Cfeet77 decided to balance it, I suppose. I personally would prefer if it was not overloaded with numbers as a result. Maybe Cfeet77 would be fine if balance would be achieved in a different way? I personally would leave only most important criticism. Kulikovsky (talk) 17:31, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: * I just tried to keep it (the intro) from seeming like a whitewash by any given faction. :) I didn't exhaustively try to make it 100% even-handed; only to provide a quick-glance look at how the man is perceived, both good and bad. As I've been saying, we've got a good article with plenty of great facts here, we've just got to get it rearranged into a format that fits well with this venue, and informs the experienced Russo-phile or -phobe, while fully educating those who are totally unacquainted with the subject matter. (And those in between, which is to say, "People like me.") All other goals are secondary, which isn't to say we should not strive for NPOV; I wouldn't say those goals are mutually-exclusive. We just need to refine for one goal first, then refine for the secondary ones. Nor would I place myself in the position of judging the relative merit of various arguments; my sole personal goal is a fully-articulated, highly-readable article. :) Ender78 (talk) 02:23, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Introduction 

message: Please discuss here sub-topics that can be shortened, with lengthier passages incorporated into lengthier articles specific to that topic (eg. "Russian Foreign Policy under Vladimir Putin"). Essentially, when in doubt as to how to handle a particular content addition, I would counsel editors to consult biographies of modern US Presidents (with the exception of G.W. Bush, himself an ideological battleground article) for ideas, since they're generally well-written, concise, and well-organized into sections, sub-topics, and related articles.Ender78 (talk) 21:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, man. I'm tied up for several days yet, but if it's not been done when I can get to it, I'll do it. And, FTR, I was considering an article specifically for support, or perhaps consolidating "Criticism" and "Support" into an article "Public Perception of VP" or something along those lines. I guess I'll look at that more next week. Ender78 (talk) 02:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Narrowing and Consolidating, Creation of more specific articles 

message: This is an aspect of the Russian government that outsiders know little about, and about which our Russian or Russian-oriented editors can enlighten us. Nobody runs a government by themselves; even Stalin had to work within his system to get his desired results. Fleshing out these fine details of how Putin conducted the duties of his office will substantially help to define the man in a biographical sense. Ender78 (talk) 21:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am worried that the article lacks any information on Putin's program and positions (at least in the simplest sense of left-right politics) and concentrates way too much on what happened in Russia during his tenure. I know, it is notoriously difficult to find out what his program and positions are. After all, most of Russian voters don't care much about political positions in this sense and vote for personalities rather than policies, and the Russian press follows them. I am afraid that Russian sources are not particularly helpful here exactly for this reason. But it is essential to include such information if we wish to see this article improved. Colchicum (talk) 15:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not sure there is a universally agreed conception what the Program/Results were/are. It is my understanding that Putin as deliberately vague about his "Plan"/intention. We have Putinism article to talk about his policies. Regarding Left/Right (Paleoconservator/Social Democrat/Neo-laborist, etc.) concepts I am not sure that using labels from the Western European/USA politics is productive outside this region. Was Saddam Hussein a liberal or a conservator? Pugachev? Stalin? Alex Bakharev (talk) 01:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expanding on Putin's context within the Russian Government 

message: Almost a week passed after a request to verify the contentious text above, and more than two days passed after a reminder.
Yet, nobody could show how that content is verifiable. That means we have consensus here. No, I do not assume that everyone is for removal, I think it is not the case. But no one could show quotes directly supporting the content. That is where we have consensus so far.
Since no one has shown that it is verifiable, I have gained significant confidence that the text in question is an interpretation made by a wikipedian. Per WP:V it does not have place in article. 
For those who would like to see the contentious text in the article, just in case, I would like to remind WP:BLP: The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia, but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material. You had 6 days to demonstrate verifiability of the text. This has not been done. The text was in the article for too long. It is never too late show how a reliable source says the same, but it should be done before the material is restored in the article. Thank you. Kulikovsky (talk) 17:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Preliminary result