Talk:Fantasy on Themes from Mozart's Figaro and Don Giovanni

message: There's no such Mozart opera as "Marriage of Figaro".  
Fantasy on Themes from Mozart's Marriage of Figaro and Don Giovanni - this almost reads as if Mozart is somehow marrying Figaro off to Don Giovanni.  Don Juan would have had anything with 2 legs but I'm not sure Figaro was quite that liberally minded.  
Also, the names of the operas need to be italicised.  --  Jack of Oz [your turn] 08:26, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Moving this article to Fantasy on Themes from Mozart's The Marriage of Figaro and Don Giovanni didn't accomplish its partial italicising (the wiki markup method of using two apostrophes to achieve italics doesn't work in article titles). The article could be moved to Fantasy on Themes from Mozart's The Marriage of Figaro and Don Giovanni and then the magic word  could be used to apply italics to the opera titles. Alternatively, the article's title could be Figaro Fantasy which would avoid the problem altogether. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

text: The previous title,  with its faulty use of double apostrophes was certainly flawed. User:Robert.Allen wrote that the current title is supported by Howard's publication, but the article's bibliography doesn't support that (Howard, 1997). I still think that Figaro Fantasy is a more sensible title (there is a REDIRECT from . -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:56, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: There doesn't seem to be any commonly agreed "Common name" that I know of. Howard's version is rarely performed and recorded. This is my English translation of the title on Howard's published score, which is in German, but I added italics. (Are the italics the reason you say the bibliography does not support it?) I used the italics because it helps to clarify the meaning. The title on the score is all in caps, without any kind of punctuation. Every cataloger and website for recordings seems to give this piece and Busoni's version a different name, and every recording seems to pick its own version, often using a name with Don Giovanni for the Busoni version. None of the sources listed here use the name "Figaro Fantasy", as far as I know. [Except of course Hamilton's title which says "The Liszt-Busoni 'Figaro Fantasy'". I did a search of Google Books. Mostly I see it used to refer to the Busoni version.] I just left it in, because it did not seem unreasonable, at least for the Busoni version. Is it suitable for the full-length Howard version? I don't think so. To me the only reasonable solution is to use his title. Certainly the Grove Online title doesn't seem like a good choice; they replace Don Giovanni with Don Juan. --Robert.Allen (talk) 04:17, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding the nickname, I found this Liszt Society web page that refers to Howard's version as the "Figaro/Don Giovanni Fantasy", but how can we say this one web page establishes that as a Common name? --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:17, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

text: International Franz Liszt Piano Competition - Rules and Regulations uses "Fantasie über Themen aus Mozarts Figaro und Don Giovanni". But, I'm not having much luck finding several reasonable sources that agree on a single alternative title. --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:29, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: (ec) Converting from all caps is mandatory and adding italics is permissible; editors translating foreign language titles seems inappropriate, although I admit that the original German-language title is a bit long winded. However, there's Ouvertüre zum "Fliegenden Holländer", wie sie eine schlechte Kurkapelle morgens um 7 am Brunnen vom Blatt spielt, so Fantasie über Themen aus den Opern von Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart Die Hochzeit des Figaro und Don Giovanni  is a possibility. ? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:35, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: This NYTimes review of a performance of it by Howard in 2005 suggests he may have used the English title "Fantasy on Themes From Mozart's 'Figaro' and 'Don Giovanni' " in the program. BTW, yes I have no problem with italicizing the title and reversing the italics for the opera names per your example. And, yes, it would be nice to get away from Howard's cumbersome published title if we can. But I do think we should use a translated English title per the NY Times. The problem with this one (as well as the Competition title) is that Mozart did not compose and opera called simply 'Figaro', altho personally I would have no problem using it. Again, it's just a nickname. Surely "Mozart's 'Figaro' is common shorthand. --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:52, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

text: A search with this NY Times English title on Google in quotes and came up with 14 hits, one of which was a BBC broadcast of Howard's Hyperion recording (click SHOW MORE). --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:13, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  IMSLP adopts a more reasonable approach: Fantasie über Themen aus Mozarts Figaro und Don Giovanni.  English version: Fantasy on Themes from Mozart's Figaro and Don Giovanni.  I think we certainly do not need to spell WAM's name out in full, and it's self-evident that the works the themes are drawn from are operas, and not string quartets, for example.  I could live with "Fantasy on Themes from Mozart's The Marriage of Figaro and Don Giovanni".  --  Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 09:26, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: In my view, IMSLP as a Wiki is not a reliable source. I looked at the score again. The title on the cover is different from the one on the title page. It is essentially the German title used by the Liszt Competition: "Fantasie über Themen aus Mozarts Figaro und Don Giovanni" (all caps, no punctuation). So the title used by the NY Times and the BBC broadcast are just an English translation of the cover title. Both the NY Times and the BBC would be reliable sources for this as a common English name. --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:51, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  [Added later: Did not mean to say IMSLP is wrong, just that we probably shouldn't cite it for the title. Obviously they used Howard's German title from his score cover rather than his title page.] --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:41, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

text: So, Fantasy on Themes from Mozart's Figaro and Don Giovanni  where the italics within italics are reversed in the display? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:02, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a Google search using Jack's suggestion: "Fantasy on Themes from Mozart's The Marriage of Figaro and Don Giovanni". I've been checking through the results, but much of it consists of copies of the former Wikipedia article. So far I haven't seen any very good hits. Amazon used the title for the Gilels recording here, but of course that's the Busoni version, so I wouldn't consider that very reliable. Plus these titles may entered by vendors, who may have gotten it from Wikipedia. If you have the time, please check it over. So far Fantasy on Themes from Mozart's Figaro and Don Giovanni  is looking like it may be the better choice, especially since it is a straight forward English translation of the title on the cover of Howard's score. (I could upload a copy of the cover to replace the current pic of his title page. I think that might be less confusing.) --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:02, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Title

message: Is this page move acceptable?  It may be an exact translation of the original title page, but it certainly defies WP:COMMONNAME.  --  Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 13:38, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The previous title,  with its faulty use of double apostrophes was certainly flawed. User:Robert.Allen wrote that the current title is supported by Howard's publication, but the article's bibliography doesn't support that (Howard, 1997). I still think that Figaro Fantasy is a more sensible title (there is a REDIRECT from . -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:56, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: There doesn't seem to be any commonly agreed "Common name" that I know of. Howard's version is rarely performed and recorded. This is my English translation of the title on Howard's published score, which is in German, but I added italics. (Are the italics the reason you say the bibliography does not support it?) I used the italics because it helps to clarify the meaning. The title on the score is all in caps, without any kind of punctuation. Every cataloger and website for recordings seems to give this piece and Busoni's version a different name, and every recording seems to pick its own version, often using a name with Don Giovanni for the Busoni version. None of the sources listed here use the name "Figaro Fantasy", as far as I know. [Except of course Hamilton's title which says "The Liszt-Busoni 'Figaro Fantasy'". I did a search of Google Books. Mostly I see it used to refer to the Busoni version.] I just left it in, because it did not seem unreasonable, at least for the Busoni version. Is it suitable for the full-length Howard version? I don't think so. To me the only reasonable solution is to use his title. Certainly the Grove Online title doesn't seem like a good choice; they replace Don Giovanni with Don Juan. --Robert.Allen (talk) 04:17, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding the nickname, I found this Liszt Society web page that refers to Howard's version as the "Figaro/Don Giovanni Fantasy", but how can we say this one web page establishes that as a Common name? --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:17, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

text: International Franz Liszt Piano Competition - Rules and Regulations uses "Fantasie über Themen aus Mozarts Figaro und Don Giovanni". But, I'm not having much luck finding several reasonable sources that agree on a single alternative title. --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:29, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: (ec) Converting from all caps is mandatory and adding italics is permissible; editors translating foreign language titles seems inappropriate, although I admit that the original German-language title is a bit long winded. However, there's Ouvertüre zum "Fliegenden Holländer", wie sie eine schlechte Kurkapelle morgens um 7 am Brunnen vom Blatt spielt, so Fantasie über Themen aus den Opern von Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart Die Hochzeit des Figaro und Don Giovanni  is a possibility. ? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:35, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: This NYTimes review of a performance of it by Howard in 2005 suggests he may have used the English title "Fantasy on Themes From Mozart's 'Figaro' and 'Don Giovanni' " in the program. BTW, yes I have no problem with italicizing the title and reversing the italics for the opera names per your example. And, yes, it would be nice to get away from Howard's cumbersome published title if we can. But I do think we should use a translated English title per the NY Times. The problem with this one (as well as the Competition title) is that Mozart did not compose and opera called simply 'Figaro', altho personally I would have no problem using it. Again, it's just a nickname. Surely "Mozart's 'Figaro' is common shorthand. --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:52, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

text: A search with this NY Times English title on Google in quotes and came up with 14 hits, one of which was a BBC broadcast of Howard's Hyperion recording (click SHOW MORE). --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:13, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  IMSLP adopts a more reasonable approach: Fantasie über Themen aus Mozarts Figaro und Don Giovanni.  English version: Fantasy on Themes from Mozart's Figaro and Don Giovanni.  I think we certainly do not need to spell WAM's name out in full, and it's self-evident that the works the themes are drawn from are operas, and not string quartets, for example.  I could live with "Fantasy on Themes from Mozart's The Marriage of Figaro and Don Giovanni".  --  Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 09:26, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: In my view, IMSLP as a Wiki is not a reliable source. I looked at the score again. The title on the cover is different from the one on the title page. It is essentially the German title used by the Liszt Competition: "Fantasie über Themen aus Mozarts Figaro und Don Giovanni" (all caps, no punctuation). So the title used by the NY Times and the BBC broadcast are just an English translation of the cover title. Both the NY Times and the BBC would be reliable sources for this as a common English name. --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:51, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  [Added later: Did not mean to say IMSLP is wrong, just that we probably shouldn't cite it for the title. Obviously they used Howard's German title from his score cover rather than his title page.] --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:41, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

text: So, Fantasy on Themes from Mozart's Figaro and Don Giovanni  where the italics within italics are reversed in the display? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:02, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a Google search using Jack's suggestion: "Fantasy on Themes from Mozart's The Marriage of Figaro and Don Giovanni". I've been checking through the results, but much of it consists of copies of the former Wikipedia article. So far I haven't seen any very good hits. Amazon used the title for the Gilels recording here, but of course that's the Busoni version, so I wouldn't consider that very reliable. Plus these titles may entered by vendors, who may have gotten it from Wikipedia. If you have the time, please check it over. So far Fantasy on Themes from Mozart's Figaro and Don Giovanni  is looking like it may be the better choice, especially since it is a straight forward English translation of the title on the cover of Howard's score. (I could upload a copy of the cover to replace the current pic of his title page. I think that might be less confusing.) --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:02, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Revisited (Sept 2014)