Talk:Socialist market economy

message: Seriously, the article needs higher quality. With rhetoric questions and personal comments, it sounds more like a speech than something that provides concrete and precise information.
I am talking with a Chinese friend about our perceptions of China's economy, and the last paragraph, if not other parts of it, would lead to outright dismissal of the article by most Chinese readers. If the official viewpoint is absolutely indefensible, we at least need some explanation why: perhaps some abortive official doublespeak, or something to that effect, to indicate that the botched arguments ascribed to the PRC government really originate there. I do not feel competent to find all these things myself, but I wish someone would. Vivacissamamente 30 June 2005 10:58 (UTC)
How should we clean this up? Please provide some justification. — Stevey7788 (talk) 04:32, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The last paragraph seems sloppy though. — Stevey7788 (talk) 04:33, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The entire article is simply too opinionated, not presenting an unbiased look at all. It needs to be rewritten as to stop endorsing opinion. 24.10.139.96 18:45, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well by all means, Be Bold!  It beats flappin' yer gums about what oughta be, especially in view of the fact that you can change the article however you wish at any time (excluding, of course, the very small amount of time Wikipedia spends in database lockdown *cough*). --Ryanaxp 04:54, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
The article may have a slightly opinionated tone, but overall it provides a clear, encompassing view on Chinese political reform. It deffinitally helped my understanding.
00:13, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Initial Comment 

message: The article states "The most important was that with pricing reform in the late 1980s, most state owned enterprises became highly unprofitable and the government decided to close or sell them off." Can someone please explain to me why the enterprises suddenly become profitable in private hands as opposed to state owned? Does it have something to do with the increase of cheap labour and overcharging of resources to the population? Could someone please expand on this. - unsigned
:It is not appropriate to deal with it in the article as the information you are asking for is both well known and applies to all cases of sovereign (ie government) verses nongovernment control of assets and boils down to the concepts of bankruptcy and profit center. A good illustration is the extreme example of government owned soviet shops that had nothing in them to sell, yet did not close. Governments could require local government entities to compete with one another and change management when they couldn't generate funds to pay their salary and rent, but laws governing government employees versus private employees make it easier to sell or rent or contract out government assets/services in many cases. See privatization. WAS 4.250 21:33, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not what happened in China.  Roadrunner 22:57, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I would have thought the reasons were obvious, but anyway, it mainly came down to the lack of competition providing no incentive to cut costs. State-owned shops were notorious for over-employment - a typical state-owned convenience shop in the 70's may have 10 sales a day, 10 employees, of whom 5 will be playing cards, 3 will be knitting, and 2 will actually be doing useful work - at a snail's pace and being rude to the customers of course. How can this outfit hope to compete with 7/11? C xong (talk) 00:17, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Question

message: At least as it is now, I find this a well composed and enlightening article. Obviously the resolution of any concrete issues is far outside the scope of Wikipedia. FWIW though I note the fundamental problem is with the reintroduction of the profit principle which is inevitably in conflict with Marxism as the fundamental principle thereof is that the extraction of profit, i.e. surplus value, is the essence of what capitalism is about and what Marxism is supposed to be against. Thus to the extent that Socialism With Chinese Characteristics restores profit seeking with all that it entails as the fundamental principle underlying production it is as complete a repudiation of Marxism as for example occured in the former Soviet Union, albeit without even the pretense of democracy found in the present day Russian oligarchy. Lycurgus 18:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I always thought that marxism predicted that feudalism evolved into capitalism which evolved into communism (perhaps by way of socialism says lenin) and that attempts to bypass capitalism were merely excuses for dictatorship. WAS 4.250 17:43, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are perhaps confusing the dictatorship of the proletariat, the concept of a deformed workers state, as well as some oversimplifications on the nature of Marxist theory. There was a considerable controversy in the first wave of socialism over whether all of the stages of history must be transited before socialism could be reached. In particular whether Russia 90 years ago was in fact a capitalist society or a feudal one and similar arguments applied to China. The only thing that Marxism predicts as such is the inevitable rise to power of the working class, i.e. the inevitability of socialism, leaving aside for the moment whether or not Marxism is a coherent body of theory which could make predictions at all in the manner in which, for example, chemistry or physics do. This issue has pretty much been superceeded by the facts of the revolutions in Russia, China, and elsewhere and the culprit is held to be not the failure to transit all the stages of historical development in order but rather the notion of socialism in one country espoused by Stalin and the Chinese Stalinists. It is this which leads in effect to the aggravation of class struggle under socialism as the nationalistic parties degenerate into ruling elites. You can see how well this fits because it is precisely by having the revolution occur on a global basis that the issue of differential stages of development in different nation-states is overcome. Lycurgus 21:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Profit is the Problem

message: So far this is basically a collection of official quotes about the subject. An actual article should cover the extensive debate, both within and outside of China, over what exactly "socialism with Chinese characteristics" consists of; whether it's actually socialism in a meaningful sense; what its relationship is with Maoism and Marxism-Leninism; and what its relationship is with capitalism. --Delirium (talk) 06:56, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: First, how is that a NPOV concern? Second, the article states it is about the term saying "This article is about the term itself and its relationships. For its implementation and effects see Economy of the People's Republic of China and Chinese economic reform." Have you looked at those articles? Seems to me you haven't thought this through. On the other hand, it would be nice if you choose to add sourced data about this term (rather than about the economic changes themselves which are covered elsewhere). The term itself appears to me to be a way of calling a mixed economy socialism, just as American right wingers like to call America's mixed economy "capitalism". But such statements and analysis must be properly sourced so they do not violate WP:NOR. WAS 4.250 (talk) 22:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oui, c'est l'article. Wirklich. Lycurgus (talk) 21:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  this isn't really an article 

message: "The Chinese state routinely micromanages prices set by state enterprises, however." Probably meant that the party sets prices in some sector(s) in which it dominates or owns all production. "Micromanage" is judgmental and inappropriate,since except in a true command economy, regardless of the variant of the "market economy", the owners of an enterprise set its price policy. Also seems to imply that prices have a natural non-human origin which is being artificially interfered with when in fact market makers are the actual determiners of prices although they do do so with demand as a factor in mind in so-called free markets. Lycurgus (talk) 17:35, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sentence removed from Lede 

message: Again, TeenInvestor is making inaccurate claims, citing the source "China has socialist market economy in place (People's Daily Online, 2005)" (http://english.people.com.cn/200507/13/eng20050713_195876.html) to say the private sector in the socialist market economy produces "70%" of GDP. This article makes no mention of the size of the private sector in terms of GDP, the only source I can find regarding this figure is "over 50%" by the OECD (http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/16/3/36174313.pdf). Furthermore, TeenInvestor lauded the privatized healthcare services in China, while failing to acknowledge that the Chinese government is on the verge of implementing a universal healthcare scheme. (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1890306,00.html)
TeenInvestor has also removed any phrase referring to the presence of macroeconomic, state-directed indicative planning (not to be confused with centralized economic planning) which exists in China today. (http://www.adb.org/Documents/Events/2004/PRC_Planning_System_Reform/chow1.pdf)
I have corrected these errors. So please refrain from modifying and generating inaccurate figures in order to promote your ideology, (talk) User:Battlecry (talk) 12 July 2009 (UTC)
I have edited this article to include many more sources and added a section titled "controversy" regarding the socialist classification of this economic model. I have edited the biased attempts by Teeninvestor to portray this economic system as capitalism, and have moved his sentence and source regarding that subject to the "controversy" section, as well as adding Marxist critiques of the socialist market economy in there. I have also provided sources indicating much of the means of production are still under state ownership, and the socialist market economy can still be considered socialist by that definition. Also, I removed the inappropriate placement on the top of the page about the socialist market economy being considered "capitalism" by TeenInvestor, and moved that to an appropriate subcategory. User:Battlecry (talk) 11 July 2009 (UTC)
I think this article should be merged with Social market economy and then deleted.Rocator (talk) 12:48, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Private sector

message: I added some materials to the article, and I was bombarded with attacks by User:Battlecry, who changed the entire tone of the article and removed much useful and cited material, as well as engaging in some minor WP:OR(ownership of a few industries cannot be used to represent state ownership of the "means of production"), while overlooking other facts already in the article, e.g., 70%+ of GDP is produced by Private sector, a number bigger than most western countries.Teeninvestor (talk) 00:45, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, look. If public sector produces 30% of GDP, 70% of GDP is going to come from the private sector, cause there are only two sectors.Teeninvestor (talk) 00:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:AGF anyone?

message: The sources you provided, "People's Daily Online" states that by the end of 2004, the "booming private sector provided four-fifths of new job opportunities and generated one-third of GDP" (http://english.people.com.cn/200507/13/eng20050713_195876.html)
1/3 of GDP for the private sector is a far cry from your 70% figure. The 30% figure applies to the 50% of state enterprises that have been converted to join-stock companies. Read the article before you make inaccurate claims, please. 
The other source (OECD) states the private sector GDP is "over 50%", which was more recent so I went with that figure. 
And by the way, there are more than simply public and private sectors in an economy; there is also a social/nonprofit sector, and in China there is a cooperative/communal sector comprised of township village enterprises and municipal enterprises.
And no, I did not remove any sources provided by User:TeenInvestor, I simply corrected the heavy bias in his tone and provided additional sources for accurate figures. If you look through previous revisions, you will see User:TeenInvestor removed any source citation of the Chinese government practicing macro-economic planning.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Battlecry (talk • contribs) 00:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's funny that a socialist would call me ideological when socialism, with its demagogues spewing insults against "Captialists, orthodox and exploiters" is the most ideological doctrine around, a doctrine that relies on faith not reason. A pitiful contrast with the great economic minds of the nineteenth century and the free market Austrian econoists. But, of course, they are wrong because they are "bourgeois" and only the great bureaucrats of central planning will know what resources need to be allocated, despite the protests of the entire population.Teeninvestor (talk) 15:10, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: RE: WP:AGF anyone?

message: I believe the version that we are under as of writing, August 26, 2009, is the most satisfactory one and has incorporated both our (very different) viewpoints. Therefore I will not change this page any more. I hope the current version can be maintained as I will be working on other articles in the future.Teeninvestor (talk) 01:18, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Stabilization of current version

message: I checked the world bank source, which was published in 2001, 8 years ago! With the rate of change China has been through, the statistics there are surely out of date. The Chinese privatization programme was at its  most intense from 1998 to 2002, and throughout that era many enterprises were privatized. In fact, the Chinese government openly endorsed privatization. Statements such as "State enterprises still produce half of exports, 46% of industrial output, and most urban employment" is surely out of date. Teeninvestor (talk) 15:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: World bank source may be out of date

message: The sources indicating that liberalization was halted under the current leadership in China were published in 2009 http://www.heritage.org/Research/Commentary/2009/05/Liberalization-in-Reverse and 2010http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2010/01/10-China-Myths-for-the-New-Decade, and the sectors guaranteed public ownership under law is from 2006 http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-12/19/content_762056.htm, not 2001. The part about reversed and halted liberalization is significant and deserves to be mentioned at least in the history section. I also noticed you removed the reference to the Tienanmen Square protests, which deserve to be mentioned in the controversy or history section of the article (as they were largely sparked by the implementation of the socialist market). If you feel the need to remove those references, please give a reason why in the discussion page. If you have any issue with the re-organization of the description by sector, let me know and we can reverse that. (talk) 16:30, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, sorry. I thought it was just a reinsertion of old material. I do realize that some of the liberalization in the health and other sectors have been reversed. In thsi case, I have no problem for the changes. In fact, right now I am quite pleased with the article, as it does describe the way things are going (the current Chinese leadership is anti-reformist). Though the heritage article was quite amusing in that a "conservative" institute would adopt keynesianism (not like there was any use for those neocons anyway). Teeninvestor (talk) 02:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Reversed liberalization, guaranteed nationalized industries

message: Socialist market economy and Socialism with Chinese characteristics largely overlap. The former even says that socialist market economy "is also referred to as socialism with Chinese characteristics". The only reason I could see for keeping them separate would be if Socialist market economy were more general and Socialism with Chinese characteristics were more specifically about China. That, however, is currently not the case; almost all of the article on Socialist market economy is about the Chinese economy; the only mention of the Vietnamese economy is in stating its name; most of the text is written as if the article were in fact about the Chinese economy.
So I think either the articles should be merged, or the one on Socialist market economy should be rewritten to describe this form of economy in general, and all information specifically about the Chinese economy should go in the article on socialism with Chinese characteristics.
:I support the merge. But the other article has almost no good info. I support moving the info of this article to the other one, and then redirecting.Teeninvestor (talk) 20:18, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *I don't know who executed the article merger, but it's more like 'article murder'. This last version prior to the redirect being put in place has virtually no content duplication with what's currently in the article. Huge chunks of material have been left behind in the so called merge. Furthermore, this last version went nowhere to explain in what manner 'socialism with Chinese characteristics' differs from 'socialism' that the article might just be redirected to 'mixed economy'. It's still pretty inadequate in that department. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 02:41, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 

message: Socialist market economy is a branch of Socialist economy, but it is necessary to exist a independent article. 1. It is unique, not all the socialist economy is market economy, moreover, with Chinese characteristics. 2. Socialist market economy is still on the go, not like the defuncted others. --WWbread （Open Your Mouth?） 06:35, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is about the current economic system in the People's Republic of China. It's not a general article about an economic system found in multiple countries. So I suggest a move to Socialist market economy of China. --Uncle Ed (talk) 16:34, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The article should not be merged with Market socialism because the Chinese system is markedly different in theory than market socialism, and generally refers to the practice of state capitalism in China and Vietnam today. Socialist market economy is based on the political ideology of Deng Xiaoping, and in theory is a third-way or transitional phase between capitalism and socialism. This is very different from market socialism, which is not a third-way but an independent, general equilibrium-based system. Furthermore, market socialists generally favor genuine social ownership in the form of cooperatives or distributing the surplus of public enterprises via a social dividend, whereas in China's socialist market economy, there exist capitalist firms (corporations) that are partially or wholly owned by the government, which is a far cry from genuine market socialism and is closer to capitalism as practiced in Singapore or the United Arab Emirates.Battlecry (talk) 01:45, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Its not the same, the socialist-oriented market economy is the official economic system of Vietnam, the socialist market economy is the official system of the People's Republic of China... Secondly, the Vietnamese don't consider their economy to be socialist, they consider there economy to be "socialist-oriented", socialist and socialist-oriented are not the same... These articles can't be merge because they are about two different economic systems. --TIAYN (talk) 09:59, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

text: See Communist Party of Vietnam#Socialist-oriented market economy (yes, the section is referenced). --TIAYN (talk) 10:03, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 2 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Greetings,
I had recently finished reading Deng Xiaoping and the Transformation of China by Ezra Vogel. In it on page 682, the book says:
"...Jiang packaged these ideas under a term he expected Deng to welcome: a 'socialist market economy.' On June 12, three days after this major address, Jiang Zemin, the hopeful young leader, asked [Deng Xiaoping] if he approved of the term 'socialist market economy,' which was clearly intended to replace Chen Yun's 'planned socialist market economy.' Deng, to Jiang's relief, said he liked Jiang's speech, adding, 'Actually, Shenzhen has a socialist market economy.'"
So, did Jiang Zemin actually come up with the term? Based on this, it certainly seems like the case. LittleCuteSuit (talk) 20:07, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did Jiang Zemin originally come up with the term "socialist market economy"?