Talk:Physical force Irish republicanism

message: An image used in this article, , has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 4 July 2011 
;What should I do?
	A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (commons:COM:SPEEDY has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs.
This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 17:35, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: File:Patrick Pearse.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: This phrase is a neologism, which has barely been used until recently. When it has been used, it seems most often used by Republicans themselves, and it appears to be propagandist in nature - softening the reality of limbs being blown off bomb victims and execution-style bullets shot through the back of victims' heads.
Google Ngram suggests a slight peek in usage in the mid-1990s in publications before the end of the last century.
I propose a merger with Irish Republicanism and also with Political violence. --24.182.92.247 (talk) 02:20, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request merger 

message: This article started in 2005 with the lede
Physical force Irish republicanism is a term used by historians in Ireland to describe the recurring appearance of non-parliamentary violent insurrection in Ireland between 1798 and the present.
… which is perfectly reasonable scope for the title, but has since grown to cover not just the use of the term by historians but the wider use of violence, including an implicit claim that this neologism is the normal term used to describe political violence in the cause of Irish republicanism.
(Also this is understandably linked from multiple places to talk about the impact of this violence outwith the island of Ireland, which is discounted in the way the topic is framed in the current lede, and violence by people opposed to republicanism; I note there's no article about violence in unionism, and it's simply covered in Unionism in Ireland.)
I propose that we re-name the article to something that is clearer and covers; some possibilities:
* Political violence in Ireland
** … but this feels like it skips violence carried out in Great Britain or elsewhere.
* Violence in Irish republicanism
** … but this risks making it seem like all republicanism is violent.
* Violence in the name of Irish republicanism
** … which is slightly odd wording.
* Violence in Irish politics
** … which would expand the scope to cover violence on all sides (and perhaps thus would expand to cover state acts as well?); possibly too broad.
Do others have thoughts? James F. (talk) 00:59, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: My own question is What knowledge does Physical force Irish republicanism present that is not contained within the Irish republicanism article?. I suspect not much. Bosley John Bosley (talk) 08:58, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: In virtually every reference on the subject, at least that I've read, the "physical force" element within Irish republicanism is dealt with. It's most definitely not a neologism, since it's been used since the Fenians. FDW777 (talk) 09:37, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I did a search for "Physical force Irish". The Times Digital Archive gives 1 hit (House Of Commons - The Sinn Fein Danger. Date: Wednesday,  Nov. 6, 1918): "...that obstacle was the fact that Sinn Fein to-day was allied with the physical force, Irish republican brotherhood party,..." From the polar persective, anphoblacht.com presents zero hits - presumably Physical force republicanism would be the their WP:Common. They document that term back to one-time Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Peter Mandelson (A week in politics, 6 December 2001 Edition). Bosley John Bosley (talk) 10:29, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest searching for things like "physical force tradition", both on Google Books and Google itself. FDW777 (talk) 13:56, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

text: Or see the use of "physical force" on many different pages of Parnellism and Crime: Evidence of Mr. Parnell (published 1889). FDW777 (talk) 14:51, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I appreciate "physical force" as a synonym for "violent" but surely the this article's "Further reading" section would be more informative if it were transfered to the  Irish republicanism article? Bosley John Bosley (talk) 10:26, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It was claimed it's a neologism, it isn't. It's a term dating back to the 19th century (at least), that's used repeatedly in the academic literature on the subject. I would suspect most constitutional republicans would agree there is a clear distinction between themselves and those who advcocate the use of physical force to realise the 32 county republic. FDW777 (talk) 18:28, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

text: In use in 1848. FDW777 (talk) 13:32, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Respect for the research. The term has been documented as early as 1846 in reference to advocates of the 1846 manifesto published in the National. It would be great to turn the redlink blue but it is not immediately apparent what they are referring to. Bosley John Bosley (talk) 19:03, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume it's following on from Young Ireland rebellion#Fenian Brotherhood, Irish Republican Brotherhood, if I could be bothered signing up for a free trial I'd see exactly who, if anyone, are being referred to as the authors of the manifesto. , any more information about the 1846 manifesto? FDW777 (talk) 19:57, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

text: My bad, I had 1848 in my head for some other uses in the newspapers and didn't seen the National publication of the manifesto was from 1846. If you think the current version is bad, you should have seen it before I deleted lots of really bad stuff. There's no doubting the article has been in bad shape for a while, but I'm sure it's not beyond repair. FDW777 (talk) 11:58, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  is the original version. It's always been awful. To be encyclopaedic, it would have to be written from scratch. It's better to have it as a redirect until someone is willing to take on that task.  Scolaire (talk) 12:14, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

text: To be honest, it was better before the editing down. At least it had the whole history of physical force from 1798. Now it's "History" consists of three very short paragraphs on 1916, the Troubles and the Peace Process.  Scolaire (talk) 12:21, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Clarification: I mean Bosley John Bosley's editing down, not your edit of 2019.  Scolaire (talk) 14:43, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I can work out that manifesto was published in Le National on 30 November 1846. I can also see the word "manifesto" being associated with Smith O'Brien around this time but I have yet to form an opinion whether the republicans are Irish Republicans or European republicans (in which case the term has been documented as early as 21 April 1848). Bosley John Bosley (talk) 19:23, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether it's here, or covered as a section in the main article it would still have the same issues. It needs to be properly written, and can't be simply ignored. FDW777 (talk) 11:58, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Thank you! James F. (talk) 16:52, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renaming this to something less oblique