Talk:Miraculous catch of fish

message: There are other numbers. See this link =
sum of cubes digits - OEIS Search Results
"FORMULA 	
A055012(n) = n iff n is in A046197 = {0, 1, 153, 370, 371, 407}. -"
http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/?q=sum+of+cubes+digits&sort=0&fmt=0&language=english&go=Search --193.56.241.75 14:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed "unique" to "rare", thanks for the heads up. Feel free to make changes directly also. --Dv82matt 04:45, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unique property ? 

message: This whole article seems to be based on a single web page. Is there any evidence that this is not an idiosyncratic concept? -- The Anome 07:34, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the prod notice. I did a google search and it appears to be based on more than just a single web page.  --Dv82matt 08:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Archimedes does NOT in fact say this, as can be seen by reading the work online, nor is Pythagoras described as catching 153 fish. -- Radagast3 (talk) 23:44, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verifiability 

message: Well, I think it should be "135 = 1x1x1 + 3x3x3 + 5x5x5"
I hope someone can notice it and give me an answer before I edited it, thank you very much:) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LQY (talk • contribs) 12:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "153 = 1x1x1 + 5x5x5 + 3x3x3"? 

message: Where did that number come from. --CPATS1 03:25, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Or, most likely, it simply indicates that there were 153 fish caught, and is indicative of an eyewitness account. Paul Srch 15:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

text: There were 153 fish caught. 265:153 is the first whole number approximation of the square root of 3 which arise from the vesica piscis in that the ratio of the long width to the short height is the square root of 3. Pbhj (talk) 23:30, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  153? 

message: The Gospel of John has a lot of complex connections.  This is simply one of them.  The number 153 is a triangular number, as mentioned.  If you take the numbers 1 to 17 and add them, you get 153 (1+2+3...+17 = 153).  But why 17?  The number in John 21:11 refers to a catch of fish.  The entire segment, taken as a whole, includes a breakfast "feeding" consisting of bread and fish (v.13), leading to Jesus instructing Peter to "feed my lambs/sheep" (v.15f).  This is to connect all the way back to Chapter 6 of John, the only other place where a feeding consisting of bread and fish occurs in this gospel.  Chapter 6 is referred to, sometimes, as the "Bread of Life Discourse".  Here, there are five barley loaves (and two fish).  After this feeding, the "fragments" are collected into twelve baskets.  5 + 12 = 17.
The purpose of this in the author's mind (I believe...I've never seen this in any book or scholarly publication that I know, I must admit) contrasts the 5000 (a military reference) seeking to be "fed" against the disciples of Chapter 21.  Contrast the bread "fragments" of Chapter 6 to the net that was not torn in Chapter 21.  Perhaps the author was influenced, directly or indirectly, by Pythagorean philosophy, but I think he/she was just being clever.  By using a triangular number, the author is able to maintain his/her symbology without it have to explicitly refer to a distinct entity...a number of theories about '153' speculate on the number of individual churches or species of fish in the Sea of Tiberias/Galilee.  By using a triangular number, the author remains free to maintain a mystical theology without pinning it to a physical quantity that can and will change.
--Donovan 23:34, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Connections 

message: I know it is ever so fun to speculate with regard to Graeco-Roman mystery influences but the fact that we are talking about the Gospel of John, wouldn't it make much more sense to go to Jewish writings from the end of the Second Temple period for the answer?
We have a wealth of parallels to Jewish documents (such as sons of light, communal meals, etc) that fix John into a Jewish context. And lo and behold, we turn to the Dead Sea Scrolls and we find a 153 parallel. If someone wants to investigate before I get time to edit:
George j. Brooke, The Dead Sea Scrolls and the New Testament. pp.282-297
The chapter is "4Q252 and the 153 Fish of John 21.11"
--Ari89 (talk) 12:25, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  153 in Jewish literature 

message: Too much material on matematics it is not relevant to this article since it is about a miracle in the Gospel accounts, not math. The math is "pure speculation" with no hope of scientific or mathematical proof or falsifiability. History2007 (talk) 19:35, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Mathematical items from previous page version

message: Somehow, all this math mystery seems to need to go to another article. The arithmetic used is hardly above trivial, and it distracts from the gospel account. And it is ALL hypothetical, for there is no way of proving what was intended. It will forever remain guesswork, until Jesus appears again and explains it... until then, we should move it elsewhere. History2007 (talk) 23:32, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: On 2nd thought these are two miracles and really need to be separated since one of them is post-crucifixion. Unless there are good reasons not to, I will separate them in a day or two. History2007 (talk) 23:51, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note that this is not Bible. Religious reasons to delete content from Wikipedia should not be presented here. --Drieakko (talk) 07:10, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The reasons were not religious "at all". The reason is focus. All the discussion about the number is pure, pure, pure speculation for no one can ever prove or disprove any of it. It is just water cooler talk by amateur mathematicians. The math presented is "pure speculation" with no hope of scientific or mathematical proof or falsifiability. The article is about a miracle. Are you saying it is not an article about a Bible account? History2007 (talk) 09:08, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Is this a math article?

message: I think the cleanest way is to have one article for each miracle, one pre-Crucifixion, the other post Crucifixion and have this page just deleted. They are two separate miracles, a couple of years apart from each other and need two separate articles. And as is, they clearly refer to each other. And in terms of Gospel harmony, each miracle has its own clean and separate page, so it works best that way. That is simple enough. No need for a big deal about it. History2007 (talk) 10:50, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments from History2007

message: Given that 4 days had passed, I followed John's comment and merged the two articles. I included a reference to the 153 number to the suitable article along with other number discussions, as stated above. History2007 (talk) 19:22, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do not act unilaterally.  Part of the problem here, is that you unilaterally created duplicate articles and removed information from an already existing article.  This RFC is meant to resolve the issue with the help of input from outside editors.  You are supposed to wait until the end of the RFC before changing anything, or at the very least, discuss your solution with the participating parties. There is much more at stake here than simply merging content.  There is also the need to maintain page histories and decide on the correct title, in addition to the discussion about a section on interpretations.  I think your changes are fine for now, but I would ask that in the future, you consult with all parties beforehand.  Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 03:43, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: My computer said merge, and computers never make mistakes..... History2007 (talk) 03:48, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: GIGO. :-) Viriditas (talk) 03:50, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: On the fourth day of Christmas my computer said to me: Merge

message: *Augustine of Hippo observed 153 is the triangular of 17..
*Richard Bauckham published an article on the subject in the journal, Neotestamentica, titled, "The 153 fish and the unity of the fourth Gospel",  It was also published in his book Testimony of the Beloved Disciple, The: Narrative, History, and Theology in the Gospel of John (2007). 
*D. A. Carson and Craig S. Keener have both published on the subject. 
*Saint Jerome's opinion on the meaning of the 153 fish is considered notable and popular, but scholars criticize it for its inaccuracy. 
*Christian art is full of examples illustrating this scene (Konrad Witz, etc.)
===Fringe idea already has a reference===
The 153 numerology nonsense is clearly a WP:Fringe item and is not included in the "mainstream" books on miracles such as these:
* Clowes, John, 1817, The Miracles of Jesus Christ published by J. Gleave, Manchester, UK
* Lockyer, Herbert, 1988 All the Miracles of the Bible 
* Maguire, Robert, 1863 The Miracles of Christ published by Weeks and Co. London
* Trench, Richard Chenevix, Notes on the miracles of our Lord, London : John W. Parker, 1846
* Van der Loos, H., 1965 The Miracles of Jesus, E.J. Brill Press, Netherlands
* Warren W. Wiersbe 1995 Classic Sermons on the Miracles of Jesus 
The symbol of the fish was a "post-Ascension" idea and is hence NOT part of the life of Jesus. There is a reference in the article to this simple minded fringe discussion and it is there within Wikipedia, for those who want to read it, but given that it is a fringe item, it can not be in the main article to distract from the miracles as discussed in the mainstream books on the topic. History2007 (talk) 19:22, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: History2007, please read WP:FRINGE and understand what it says.  I have already provided a very brief list of notable scholars and authorities who have discussed the interpretation of the number 153 in relation to the draught of fish.  It is not fringe in any way, and it is discussed extensively in mainstream literature.  I would like to take the opportunity to point out that your list of sources on this subject shows that you may not understand how we determine and use reliable sources.  We generally evaluate good sources based on authoritativeness, accuracy, and currency.  You will note that my list meets and exceeds this criteria, while yours, unfortunately, does not.  Augustine of Hippo, Richard Bauckham, D. A. Carson, Craig S. Keener, and Saint Jerome are just a few out of dozens of reliable sources on the subject.  I think you misunderstand what "fringe" means in this case, and how it is used on Wikipedia. Viriditas (talk) 03:40, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not agree. In any case, the numerology nonsense is in the other page. If you want to add more just add to that page. I see no big deal here, it is still in Wikipedia, but does not get in the way of the mainstream items. Alas, it is low quality math. History2007 (talk) 04:24, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: History2007, you said that the sources I offered were fringe; Could you support your claim with evidence?  Also, could you please explain how an interpretation of the number 153 is fringe when it is discussed in many reliable sources?  Obviously, scholars consider it significant and important.  Could you please explain your reasoning other than declaring it fringe and saying you disagree?  Also, do you understand why the sources you have offered are not a good fit for our article, while the ones that I have given you are considered reliable? Viriditas (talk) 04:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I already did above. History2007 (talk) 04:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you didn't, and the sources you offered are not considered reliable by our standards.  Do you understand that the sources I have asked you to review are considered reliable?  Can you explain the difference?  Reliable, scholarly sources have discussed the interpretation of the number 153 in direct relation to this topic.  Your claim that this is somehow "fringe" is not supported.  Please support your claim that this is "fringe", sticking closely to the definition that Wikipedia uses.  Viriditas (talk) 04:37, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I already commented above. History2007 (talk) 04:40, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, in fact, you did not comment.  This is a discussion page, and a discussion involves communication.  I have asked you several questions, and you have not responded.  Simply saying "I disagree, it is fringe" is not a valid response.  You need to show how and why it is fringe, and as I have already explained, the discussion of the interpretation of the number 153 appears in scholarly, peer-reviewed sources.  This means, that according to Wikipedia standards, it is acceptable for inclusion.  If you can explain why it is not, then I can address your objection.  Otherwise, I will assume that you cannot, and I will add it back into the article.  And again, the sources you have offered do not represent a response.  You picked several unreliable sources that do not discuss the topic and argued that an absence of evidence is evidence of absence.  It is most certainly not, and your argument is not a reasonable line of discussion. Viriditas (talk) 04:45, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

text: Well, #1, I only see names of  scholars, not sources. Are we supposed to read all the works of D. A. Carson to find the page in which he says someing about this number? #2 Most early church fathers, individually, held some ideas we would consider "fringe" -- and Jerome more than most.  11:53, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've provided names and sources.  You are just changing the subject again.  I'm not interested in other fringe ideas, I'm interested in why you think a discussion of the images and symbols pertaining to the number 153 is considered fringe.  And, I have repeatedly asked you to back up what you are saying with evidence.  I'm still waiting. Viriditas (talk) 13:13, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: That's not what John said.  He wrote, "The number material might be kept in its own article, although there must be reference to this, which all seems to have been removed now from here, though not the longer article."  There is considerable coverage of the subject.  D. A. Carson gives a brief overview in  The Gospel According to John (1991)  Disappearing for four days only to return and merge the articles is one thing.  Thanks for your consideration.  Refusing to discuss returning the interpretation section you removed without consensus is another.  It's nice that you have only the best interests of this article in mind, but an interpretation section that discusses the number is supported by John. Viriditas (talk) 13:13, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said above, you can go ahead and all the numerology fringe nonsense to the other page. No one is stopping you. But you are typing on talk pages, while Carl and myself are fixing the errors in the article.... enough said. History2007 (talk) 13:15, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No.  Richard Bauckham in Testimony of the Beloved Disciple, The: Narrative, History, and Theology in the Gospel of John (2007), Chapter 13, "The 153 Fish and the Unity of the Fourth Gospel"; R. Alan Culpepper's "Designs for the Church in the Imagery of John 21:1-14", in Imagery in the Gospel of John: Terms, Forms, Themes, and Theology of Johannine Figurative Language (2006); Culpepper cites Corrado Marucci's 2004 article, "Il significato del numero 153 in Gv 21,11 in Rivista Biblica; Craig S. Keener in [The Gospel of John: A Commentary] (2003); Mark Kiley's "Three More Fish Stories (John 21:11)" (2008) in  Journal of Biblical Literature 127:3. Viriditas (talk) 14:12, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

text: You know Carl, what we should not let Viri do is "talk us to death". I think you have made your point 3 times over now. He will come back and say da da da da etc. but he will get nowhere. The idea is Fringe and that is all. Thanks for your input. History2007 (talk) 20:34, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: For the second time, History2007, this is a talk page, and what we do here is talk.  I'm sorry you dislike this fact, but there's nothing I can do, it's what the page is used for on Wikipedia.  Also, I expect you to address the sources I have offered, rather than to ignore and dismiss them.  There is nothing preventing me from expanding the interpretation section and discussing the symbolism of the 153 fish, a topic covered by biblical scholars in multiple scholarly sources and reputable books.  So far, neither you nor Carlaude have addressed Wikipedia policy or guidelines, instead misusing the word "fringe" and ignoring my questions.  As the authors make clear, the topic is notable and significant, taking up entire chapters in several books.  For example, please address what R. Alan Culpepper says on the matter. There is no reason not to represent Culpepper's position in this article.  Your continual removal of information you dislike isn't how we edit Wikipedia.  Our personal beliefs and convictions should not interfere with what good sources say on the subject.  And they say that the symbolism of the 153 is important enough to discuss here. Viriditas (talk) 21:10, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for pointing out that this is a talk page..... You are so observant and ever so clever.... History2007 (talk) 21:21, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Address what Culpepper says? It even begins "scholars have not been able to reach any consensus" and that was part of my point. You really don't even discuss, you talk.  22:15, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That scholars have not reached a consensus on the matter is all the more reason to represent the colorful diversity of notable interpretations in this article.  Why should it be any different? I would like to point you over to the NPOV policy.  Neither you not History2007 have presented any reason for deliberately removing coverage of these significant opinions.  Our job is to use the best sources to explain it.  We are writing a broad, secular encyclopedia article, not a bible study guide that favors one POV. Viriditas (talk) 23:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

text: This article links to "153 (number)#In the Bible. For "numerology of the Bible" in general, there is Bible numerics, which could be improved into what you might have in mind.  19:52, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh boy... I did not know about the Bible Numerics article. I was laughing for over a minute when I read that.... Anyway, given that it is there, the whole discussion is over. Any discussion of 153 should go there for that is where numbers in the bible are discussed. Of course the type of patterns they discuss can also be found in the New York Times, but that is another story, as I said about 168 fish being perfect and abundant... amazing that people new to math spend time on these things.... anyway that article is where this type of hypothetical thoughts should go. History2007 (talk) 22:09, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

text: I strongly disagree with the claim put forward by 7390r0g.  The interpretation and symbolism of the number 153 is indeed mainstream, and Richard Bauckham, R. Alan Culpepper's, Corrado Marucci, Craig S. Keener, and Mark Kiley are a small sample of the mainstream scholars that have written about the subject.  So, contrary to what is being claimed by 7390r0g, Carlaude, and History2007, the subject is notable, significant, and relevant to this article.  Considering 7390r0g's contribution history and wikihounding from the CRU article to here, I will ignore his uninformed opinion as another attempt at disruption. Viriditas (talk) 01:48, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikihounding is wrong - I found an RfC here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/All#Religion_and_philosophy specifically requesting feedback from the community on the 153 question and I responded on the talk page as requested. I have never edited against this user on any page ever. I'm sorry that I crossed paths with her and I will make every effort to avoid her in the future. 7390r0g (talk) 03:14, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe there is another way we can expand this miracle article (tongue in cheek) with a 3rd miracle..... just for fun. Viri buys a gold fish and starts talking to it... talk, talk, talk... Then at some point I conjecture that "the fish will talk back" and say something like "shut up" (although the wording may vary) 153 times in a row... that would be a third miracle of the fish... then maybe it will become expandable. Until then we have several people against Viri here and there is no need for further repetition.... History2007 (talk) 04:29, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: 7390r0g, don't let Viriditas intimidate you. He seems to say (or repeat) whatever he can in hopes of getting his way.  04:38, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Accounts like 7390r0g are generally ignored when it comes to deciding on consensus.  And Carl?  I have no "hopes of getting my way" here, as nothing I've discussed has anything to do with me.  I completely understand, however, that you see this discussion in terms of "I'm right and you're wrong", but you should be aware that many editors here are solely concerned with improving and expanding Wikipedia articles, and have no personal investment in the content.  In other words, the only "way" here, is the Wiki way, not my own.  Neither you nor History2007, nor 7390r0g have managed to address the underlying issues I've raised.  Dismissing these points with a wave of your hand is not an acceptable form of discussion.  We have biblical scholars discussing the significant symbolism and imagery of the number 153 in direct relation to this topic, and there is nothing "fringe" about discussing it here.  If there were, you would be able to show me how such a discussion does not meet basic Wikipedia guidelines and policies.  You cannot do this, so I must conclude that you have forfeited the argument, and await the expansion of the 153 section with open arms and a pleasant smile on your face.  In that case, do not worry, as I will not let you down.  The section will be expanded.  Since this subtopic does not interest you, I would encourage you to focus your efforts on more constructive matters.  There are certainly plenty of project-related topics needing improvement, and I'm sure you'll be more interested in working on something you feel you can contribute to in a positive, collaborative manner.  In the meantime, if I need your feedback on the new additions, I'll be sure and ask for your opinion.  You can start by reviewing the literature on the subject, in particular, the sources I have provided you up above.  Of course, if for some reason you decide to maintain your position, and continue to claim, sans evidence, that the material is "fringe", I would expect you to support your claim with a scholar of equal caliber, who actually refers to the the academic discussion of the imagery and symbolism of the number 153 as a fringe opinion.  If you can't do that, then I will conclude that this is only your opinion, and I will ask you to keep it to yourself. Viriditas (talk) 05:20, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: @Viri. It seems we got off on a bad start - perhaps it would have been better if I had not responded to the RfC. But since I did, let's both assume good faith and try our best. As I see it, you are earnest in your pleadings and fully sincere. However, the edits you wish to add are related to a very esoteric and not widely held view of what is and isn't significant in the Bible. I am pretty sure that the others here won't support you towards consensus, so on that basis alone, your avenue of adding that information is at this time closed to you. You would do better to add that information to a more suitable article and possibly link to that article from this. I mean no offense by this and I am sorry that my comments don't aid your objective. But this is how I see it and to say otherwise would patronize you and I prefer candor over the flattery of reflexive agreement.7390r0g (talk) 08:08, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, but you are mistaken.  The edits you are referring to were added by someone else.  The edits I am referring to are based on peer-reviewed journal articles written by biblical scholars. I can see how you can confuse the two things, as they both refer to the same topic, but the content is entirely different. Viriditas (talk) 08:12, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: History2007, I would like to inform you that your open declaration of blanket reverting any improvement and expansion of this article by myself is a violation of just about every known Wikipedia policy and guideline.  Please be aware that if you continue this behavior, I will be forced to contact an administrator.  There is nothing stopping me or anyone else from adding the biblical scholars I've cited above, and nobody has directly addressed my open requests for an explanation.  Your admission that you plan to blanket revert any edit I make in order to force me to "wait and talk more" is expressly forbidden.  Edits are only reverted for specific reasons, none of which you have explained.  At this point, History2007, you appear to be too close to this topic, so I would ask that you remove yourself from here before you get into trouble. Viriditas (talk) 06:34, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You know what I meant... I meant the 153 item here... and please do feel fee to complain to anyone any time anywhere... up to the united nations... you have no consensus. Period. History2007 (talk) 06:36, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes-- go ahead and contact an administrator now. Contact all of 'em if you like!  07:17, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It will happen soon enough with statements like "if he expands I will revert him", and the ongoing POV pushing.  I have no need of you to tell me to do anything; If I require your assistance, you will be notified. Viriditas (talk) 09:40, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Your planned and announced actions breach the guidelines and policies supporting the fundamental purpose of this encyclopedia.  Your status of a single-purpose account is one thing; Actively preventing other editors from improving and expanding articles within your topic of interests is quite another.  Cease and desist.  You have not addressed a single one of my questions, nor have you engaged in any discussion of the sources I have provided.  A discussion about consensus, therefore, can only take place after the edit has been made.  You will be so kind as to allow me to edit this article, dear sir, and I will be kind enough to forgo reporting you for planning and coordinating an edit war based on your POV pushing.  Scholarly sources clearly support the inclusion of a discussion involving the symbolism and imagery of the number 153.  You continue to claim without any evidence that this is a fringe opinion.  I have provided multiple sources showing that this topic has been discussed in the literature by experts in their respective fields, and is noteworthy and significant.  For you to claim that this is a fringe opinion, you will therefore need to support what you are saying with actual evidence, such as reliable sources.  Please do so, immediately, or admit that you have none and forfeit this argument.  Informed consensus rests upon the bedrock of evidence, not random opinion.  Please engage in this discussion with actual sources that claim that the 153 symbolism is a fringe topic.  Viriditas (talk) 06:44, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: There is no consensus on this issue, and consensus does not at any time override Wikipedia policy, for example, NPOV.   You have not engaged in any direct discussion about 153.  Informed consensus, based on actual discussion involving evidence is legitimate.  Instead, what you have done is dismiss evidence out of hand with vague claims of "fringe" without any substantiating references.  That's not how consensus works, and NPOV always comes first.  You're too close to this topic, and you need to take a step back and sit this one out.  Otherwise, address the sources I have offered and explain why they are not acceptable. Viriditas (talk) 06:52, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: That doesn't matter.  That statement, "I do not agree with you" does not address the evidence under discussion.  Whether you agree or disagree, statements of objection and support must be accompanied by actual discussion and evidence.  Why don't you agree?  Because you claim it is fringe.  Why is it fringe?  I'm still waiting for the answer to that question, and I have repeatedly asked it for the last week without response.  Please answer it or forfeit the argument. Viriditas (talk) 06:56, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: That link points to this discussion.  Please explain the answer using your own words.  To date, nobody has explained why the biblical symbolism of the number 153 cannot be discussed in this article.  According to good scholarly sources, there is significant discussion on the topic and some of it belongs here.  If you disagree, explain why.  Viriditas (talk) 06:59, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: No, that is a duplicate link that you already provided.  Please explain your objection to the 153 in your own words, here, in reply to my request, paying special attention to your claim that it is "fringe".  For example, which scholarly source claims that a discussion of the biblical symbolism of 153 is fringe?  If you can't find one, then your claim isn't supported.  Viriditas (talk) 07:07, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: "I do not agree with you...Answer is here...Explanation is here...I already did" - none of this consists of actual discussion, evidence, or counterarguments.  Consensus is based on actual discussion involving actual evidence, not vague declarations of opposition or support.  If you can't answer my questions on the talk page, then simply admit it.  You have not explained why the 153 symbolism is considered fringe, nor have you provided any sources supporting your viewpoint.  Therefore, your objection cannot be taken seriously.  I'm glad you find this funny, but the talk page is used to improve the article, not to disrupt it. Viriditas (talk) 07:15, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: There is no consensus "against me" because you have not addressed any of the issues that I have raised.  You have dismissed, out of hand, any discussion of symbolism and imagery related to the number 153, a significant topic found in the peer-reviewed, biblical literature.  You claim that it is "fringe", yet you cannot explain why or support your claim with an actual scholar who says it is fringe.  What we are left with is a campaign of POV pushing by you and History2007, which is not supported by policy.  In other words, you have not been able to argue against the inclusion of the 153 material.  I have shown that scholarly sources found it significant.  You have not, on the other hand, provided the same sources which dismiss it. Please do so. Furthermore, the current state of this article shows beyond a doubt that you do not understand how we write encyclopedia articles. Viriditas (talk) 07:22, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: @Viri. I think what they are saying is there's no consensus that your requested additions are apropos to this particular article. I am not arguing that there is/is not truth or peer review supporting your suggestions. And I am not saying you are wrong about the meaning. What I feel is that the mainstream view of the Bible does not include studies of such esoteric aspects. It borders on fringe - so far as it's public acceptance level. I urge you consider adding this material to a more appropriate article. 7390r0g (talk) 09:42, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Those sources represent mainstream views of the bible.  An encyclopedia article can include good interpretations, commentary and analysis from experts in their respective fields.  I am not arguing for inclusion of the material from the 153 (number)#In the Bible article.  I am talking about rewriting the article with the sources I have offered above and others.  If you find something wrong with the ones I've raised, please tell me the problem. Viriditas (talk) 13:11, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am uncertain how you arrive at "mainstrem views of the Bible". There are two camps when it comes to the Bible: 1) Those who start with the premise that it's "inspired" (ie: written by the Holy Spirit, via the vehicle of human scribes) and 2) those who do not. Now which of these two "mainstreams" would you say your sources fall under? 7390r0g (talk) 19:16, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You are uncertain about the sources because you have not looked at them.  As for the false dilemma you present above, there are not only two camps "when it comes to the Bible", there may be those who think it is both or posit other choices.  I fail to see what either of these things has to do with writing an encyclopedia article on the subject.  However, if you feel it is important, perhaps you could look at the sources yourself (without dismissing them out of hand) and tell me which camp you think they fall under and why this is important? Viriditas (talk) 04:38, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: @Viriditas. I don't have a dog in the fight, so please bear with me. Regarding my "two camps" contention, if we don't agree on this, there is no point in talking. The "inspired by God" vs. "written by man" debate is the central debate regarding the accuracy of the Bible and if you deny this, what point is there in talking? That said, I am advancing no position here as I do not seek to add material to the article. On the other hand, since you do seek to add material, it's incumbent upon you to make your case. From what I know about the Bible and those who study it, a large majority of those who study it look at it as "inspired by God". But, in addition to them, there is a significant minority who look at it as "writtien by man". Now, if the advocates of your 153 views claim to be in camp #1, I'd say that's definately a fringe view for that camp. However, if they are in camp #2, it may not be fringe for that group, but I'd need to know more. And in any case, I am pretty sure most reasonable people would agree that this series of articles is not intended to focus on esoteric interpretations which appeal to limited numbers of people. Estoteric interpretations of widely read material should go into articles specifically intended to explore the esoteric aspects. If I am not mistaken, that is the central miscommunication happening here. You think that because you can "prove" your case, the material belongs in this particlar article. "True" or not I don't think that material belongs in this particular article (as opposed to elsewhere on WP) and I have said as that as plainly and as kindly as I can. 7390r0g (talk) 07:15, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

text: *If its a content dispute then watchers of this page should be notified. Wikiquette dispute can be posted here also. As it says at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts/Beginning, "continue discussing it at its original location"]] Please try to not be quite so much of a control freak.  12:49, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Carl, but is there a talk you to death alert to post on his page too? History2007 (talk) 13:08, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I get the fact that you and Carl "agree" and "disagree" with each other, but you need to add reasons and evidence to these things in order for the discussion to make sense.  If this isn't clear or easy to understand, feel free to ask questions, but there is no consensus on Wikipedia that is based on agreeing or disagreeing.  It requires actual discussion. Viriditas (talk) 13:11, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it is this way: we agree with each other, disagree with you. History2007 (talk) 13:27, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, that's not how the discussion page is used.  Anyone can agree or disagree, but that's not how we resolve a discussion.  All discussion participants are encouraged to work towards agreement.  Towards this end, I have asked you and Carl many questions, none of which have been answered.  If you can't collaborate or work towards resolution, then you probably shouldn't be using the talk page.  This page has one purpose-to improve the article.  Right now, the article looks pretty bad, and I came here with concerns about your forking of this article into four separate articles.  Without waiting for the discussion to end, you decided to act unilaterally (once again, after all that's how the problem started) and merged and moved the article with Carl's help.  I understand that you and Carl did this to work towards resolution, but you didn't talk about doing it during the active RFC, you simply disappeared for four days and did it.  The entire purpose of the RFC was to decide this outcome.  It was not to facillitate your little vacation and unilateral action on the matter.  In any case, we are past that point and we have moved on to the issue of 153.  Instead of continuing to act unilaterally, I am asking you to explain your reasoning behind your disagreement.  Recently, you described the 153 issue as "fringe".  In response, I gave you several different names of biblical scholars, papers, and publications that cover the topic.  I then asked you to explain to me how this could be considered fringe.  You have so far, refused to respond, instead you have issued threats of a future edit war, claiming that you will revert any attempt to expand this article.  This kind of behavior is not acceptable.  WikiProject Christianity has about 31,522 articles, of which about 31,438 require improvement.  Is there a reason you are preventing improvement of a small stub that contains only 661 words, while thousands of important articles go ignored?  Do you understand that stubs are supposed to be expanded and that my action on this matter is supported entirely by the sources, the policies, the guidelines, and most of all, common sense? Viriditas (talk) 13:46, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text:  Now we have four people on one side vs Viri on the other side. My prediction: he may yet say that none of the 4 people  have elucidated their arguments well enough, etc. etc. etc. and type another dissertation on how encyclopedia articles "should be" written. Let the games continue.... History2007 (talk) 13:47, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The only problem is that these "sides" aren't real.  I don't support the material being taken from the 153 article and placed in this article, and I've never made that argument.  I support rewriting this article and expanding it with new information from new sources.  The current article is a stub, and does not represent broad encyclopedic coverage of the topic. Viriditas (talk) 13:51, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Stub flag was before the merge. Now it is start. If John says it is Ok, that means a lot, if you look at the class of work he has done before. History2007 (talk) 13:56, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The assessment aside, the article is still stubby.  I appreciate John's opinion and I thank him for it.  But, I am still here, and I think for myself. Unlike John, I am not "happy" with the basic form of this article, and I can find no precedent for it. Viriditas (talk) 14:00, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

text: I support keeping article as it is, per John, and could also support expanding, but not rewriting it. I don't think it will ever be a canidate for FA, but more information on interpretion, aside from 153, could be added if someone wants. Interpretion of the 153 might be added to linked articles.  01:54, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Carl. But do not see a huge rush to expand anyway, but 153 is certainlynot suited here.... Now let us get ready for another lecture on how it "should be done".... History2007 (talk) 01:57, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, but such a proposal is not only unprecedented and unheard of, it is simply unacceptable at every level.  We do not "freeze" articles as stubs to prevent their development, nor do we vote against "rewriting" a poorly written, poorly sourced stub.  This kind of proposal cannot be taken seriously, and will not be followed. If you cannot address the problems with this article or why you objection to standard scholarly interpretation and discussion of symbols and imagery, then you should probably focus on one of the 31,438 other project articles that need work.  Viriditas (talk) 04:27, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources supporting inclusion of a section interpreting the meaning of the 153 fish

message: The 153 numerology nonsense is clearly a WP:Fringe item and is not included in the "mainstream" books on miracles such as these:
* Clowes, John, 1817, The Miracles of Jesus Christ published by J. Gleave, Manchester, UK
* Lockyer, Herbert, 1988 All the Miracles of the Bible 
* Maguire, Robert, 1863 The Miracles of Christ published by Weeks and Co. London
* Trench, Richard Chenevix, Notes on the miracles of our Lord, London : John W. Parker, 1846
* Van der Loos, H., 1965 The Miracles of Jesus, E.J. Brill Press, Netherlands
* Warren W. Wiersbe 1995 Classic Sermons on the Miracles of Jesus 
The symbol of the fish was a "post-Ascension" idea and is hence NOT part of the life of Jesus. There is a reference in the article to this simple minded fringe discussion and it is there within Wikipedia, for those who want to read it, but given that it is a fringe item, it can not be in the main article to distract from the miracles as discussed in the mainstream books on the topic. History2007 (talk) 19:22, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: History2007, please read WP:FRINGE and understand what it says.  I have already provided a very brief list of notable scholars and authorities who have discussed the interpretation of the number 153 in relation to the draught of fish.  It is not fringe in any way, and it is discussed extensively in mainstream literature.  I would like to take the opportunity to point out that your list of sources on this subject shows that you may not understand how we determine and use reliable sources.  We generally evaluate good sources based on authoritativeness, accuracy, and currency.  You will note that my list meets and exceeds this criteria, while yours, unfortunately, does not.  Augustine of Hippo, Richard Bauckham, D. A. Carson, Craig S. Keener, and Saint Jerome are just a few out of dozens of reliable sources on the subject.  I think you misunderstand what "fringe" means in this case, and how it is used on Wikipedia. Viriditas (talk) 03:40, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not agree. In any case, the numerology nonsense is in the other page. If you want to add more just add to that page. I see no big deal here, it is still in Wikipedia, but does not get in the way of the mainstream items. Alas, it is low quality math. History2007 (talk) 04:24, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: History2007, you said that the sources I offered were fringe; Could you support your claim with evidence?  Also, could you please explain how an interpretation of the number 153 is fringe when it is discussed in many reliable sources?  Obviously, scholars consider it significant and important.  Could you please explain your reasoning other than declaring it fringe and saying you disagree?  Also, do you understand why the sources you have offered are not a good fit for our article, while the ones that I have given you are considered reliable? Viriditas (talk) 04:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I already did above. History2007 (talk) 04:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you didn't, and the sources you offered are not considered reliable by our standards.  Do you understand that the sources I have asked you to review are considered reliable?  Can you explain the difference?  Reliable, scholarly sources have discussed the interpretation of the number 153 in direct relation to this topic.  Your claim that this is somehow "fringe" is not supported.  Please support your claim that this is "fringe", sticking closely to the definition that Wikipedia uses.  Viriditas (talk) 04:37, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I already commented above. History2007 (talk) 04:40, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, in fact, you did not comment.  This is a discussion page, and a discussion involves communication.  I have asked you several questions, and you have not responded.  Simply saying "I disagree, it is fringe" is not a valid response.  You need to show how and why it is fringe, and as I have already explained, the discussion of the interpretation of the number 153 appears in scholarly, peer-reviewed sources.  This means, that according to Wikipedia standards, it is acceptable for inclusion.  If you can explain why it is not, then I can address your objection.  Otherwise, I will assume that you cannot, and I will add it back into the article.  And again, the sources you have offered do not represent a response.  You picked several unreliable sources that do not discuss the topic and argued that an absence of evidence is evidence of absence.  It is most certainly not, and your argument is not a reasonable line of discussion. Viriditas (talk) 04:45, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

text: Well, #1, I only see names of  scholars, not sources. Are we supposed to read all the works of D. A. Carson to find the page in which he says someing about this number? #2 Most early church fathers, individually, held some ideas we would consider "fringe" -- and Jerome more than most.  11:53, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've provided names and sources.  You are just changing the subject again.  I'm not interested in other fringe ideas, I'm interested in why you think a discussion of the images and symbols pertaining to the number 153 is considered fringe.  And, I have repeatedly asked you to back up what you are saying with evidence.  I'm still waiting. Viriditas (talk) 13:13, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: That's not what John said.  He wrote, "The number material might be kept in its own article, although there must be reference to this, which all seems to have been removed now from here, though not the longer article."  There is considerable coverage of the subject.  D. A. Carson gives a brief overview in  The Gospel According to John (1991)  Disappearing for four days only to return and merge the articles is one thing.  Thanks for your consideration.  Refusing to discuss returning the interpretation section you removed without consensus is another.  It's nice that you have only the best interests of this article in mind, but an interpretation section that discusses the number is supported by John. Viriditas (talk) 13:13, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said above, you can go ahead and all the numerology fringe nonsense to the other page. No one is stopping you. But you are typing on talk pages, while Carl and myself are fixing the errors in the article.... enough said. History2007 (talk) 13:15, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No.  Richard Bauckham in Testimony of the Beloved Disciple, The: Narrative, History, and Theology in the Gospel of John (2007), Chapter 13, "The 153 Fish and the Unity of the Fourth Gospel"; R. Alan Culpepper's "Designs for the Church in the Imagery of John 21:1-14", in Imagery in the Gospel of John: Terms, Forms, Themes, and Theology of Johannine Figurative Language (2006); Culpepper cites Corrado Marucci's 2004 article, "Il significato del numero 153 in Gv 21,11 in Rivista Biblica; Craig S. Keener in [The Gospel of John: A Commentary] (2003); Mark Kiley's "Three More Fish Stories (John 21:11)" (2008) in  Journal of Biblical Literature 127:3. Viriditas (talk) 14:12, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

text: You know Carl, what we should not let Viri do is "talk us to death". I think you have made your point 3 times over now. He will come back and say da da da da etc. but he will get nowhere. The idea is Fringe and that is all. Thanks for your input. History2007 (talk) 20:34, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: For the second time, History2007, this is a talk page, and what we do here is talk.  I'm sorry you dislike this fact, but there's nothing I can do, it's what the page is used for on Wikipedia.  Also, I expect you to address the sources I have offered, rather than to ignore and dismiss them.  There is nothing preventing me from expanding the interpretation section and discussing the symbolism of the 153 fish, a topic covered by biblical scholars in multiple scholarly sources and reputable books.  So far, neither you nor Carlaude have addressed Wikipedia policy or guidelines, instead misusing the word "fringe" and ignoring my questions.  As the authors make clear, the topic is notable and significant, taking up entire chapters in several books.  For example, please address what R. Alan Culpepper says on the matter. There is no reason not to represent Culpepper's position in this article.  Your continual removal of information you dislike isn't how we edit Wikipedia.  Our personal beliefs and convictions should not interfere with what good sources say on the subject.  And they say that the symbolism of the 153 is important enough to discuss here. Viriditas (talk) 21:10, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for pointing out that this is a talk page..... You are so observant and ever so clever.... History2007 (talk) 21:21, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Address what Culpepper says? It even begins "scholars have not been able to reach any consensus" and that was part of my point. You really don't even discuss, you talk.  22:15, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That scholars have not reached a consensus on the matter is all the more reason to represent the colorful diversity of notable interpretations in this article.  Why should it be any different? I would like to point you over to the NPOV policy.  Neither you not History2007 have presented any reason for deliberately removing coverage of these significant opinions.  Our job is to use the best sources to explain it.  We are writing a broad, secular encyclopedia article, not a bible study guide that favors one POV. Viriditas (talk) 23:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Fringe idea already has a reference

message: There is nothing in the mainstream which supports this 153 number being portrayed as significant in and of itself - not in this article anyway. Do we have a WP article on numerology aspects of the Bible? 7390r0g (talk) 19:00, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This article links to "153 (number)#In the Bible. For "numerology of the Bible" in general, there is Bible numerics, which could be improved into what you might have in mind.  19:52, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh boy... I did not know about the Bible Numerics article. I was laughing for over a minute when I read that.... Anyway, given that it is there, the whole discussion is over. Any discussion of 153 should go there for that is where numbers in the bible are discussed. Of course the type of patterns they discuss can also be found in the New York Times, but that is another story, as I said about 168 fish being perfect and abundant... amazing that people new to math spend time on these things.... anyway that article is where this type of hypothetical thoughts should go. History2007 (talk) 22:09, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

text: I strongly disagree with the claim put forward by 7390r0g.  The interpretation and symbolism of the number 153 is indeed mainstream, and Richard Bauckham, R. Alan Culpepper's, Corrado Marucci, Craig S. Keener, and Mark Kiley are a small sample of the mainstream scholars that have written about the subject.  So, contrary to what is being claimed by 7390r0g, Carlaude, and History2007, the subject is notable, significant, and relevant to this article.  Considering 7390r0g's contribution history and wikihounding from the CRU article to here, I will ignore his uninformed opinion as another attempt at disruption. Viriditas (talk) 01:48, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikihounding is wrong - I found an RfC here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/All#Religion_and_philosophy specifically requesting feedback from the community on the 153 question and I responded on the talk page as requested. I have never edited against this user on any page ever. I'm sorry that I crossed paths with her and I will make every effort to avoid her in the future. 7390r0g (talk) 03:14, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe there is another way we can expand this miracle article (tongue in cheek) with a 3rd miracle..... just for fun. Viri buys a gold fish and starts talking to it... talk, talk, talk... Then at some point I conjecture that "the fish will talk back" and say something like "shut up" (although the wording may vary) 153 times in a row... that would be a third miracle of the fish... then maybe it will become expandable. Until then we have several people against Viri here and there is no need for further repetition.... History2007 (talk) 04:29, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: 7390r0g, don't let Viriditas intimidate you. He seems to say (or repeat) whatever he can in hopes of getting his way.  04:38, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Accounts like 7390r0g are generally ignored when it comes to deciding on consensus.  And Carl?  I have no "hopes of getting my way" here, as nothing I've discussed has anything to do with me.  I completely understand, however, that you see this discussion in terms of "I'm right and you're wrong", but you should be aware that many editors here are solely concerned with improving and expanding Wikipedia articles, and have no personal investment in the content.  In other words, the only "way" here, is the Wiki way, not my own.  Neither you nor History2007, nor 7390r0g have managed to address the underlying issues I've raised.  Dismissing these points with a wave of your hand is not an acceptable form of discussion.  We have biblical scholars discussing the significant symbolism and imagery of the number 153 in direct relation to this topic, and there is nothing "fringe" about discussing it here.  If there were, you would be able to show me how such a discussion does not meet basic Wikipedia guidelines and policies.  You cannot do this, so I must conclude that you have forfeited the argument, and await the expansion of the 153 section with open arms and a pleasant smile on your face.  In that case, do not worry, as I will not let you down.  The section will be expanded.  Since this subtopic does not interest you, I would encourage you to focus your efforts on more constructive matters.  There are certainly plenty of project-related topics needing improvement, and I'm sure you'll be more interested in working on something you feel you can contribute to in a positive, collaborative manner.  In the meantime, if I need your feedback on the new additions, I'll be sure and ask for your opinion.  You can start by reviewing the literature on the subject, in particular, the sources I have provided you up above.  Of course, if for some reason you decide to maintain your position, and continue to claim, sans evidence, that the material is "fringe", I would expect you to support your claim with a scholar of equal caliber, who actually refers to the the academic discussion of the imagery and symbolism of the number 153 as a fringe opinion.  If you can't do that, then I will conclude that this is only your opinion, and I will ask you to keep it to yourself. Viriditas (talk) 05:20, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: @Viri. It seems we got off on a bad start - perhaps it would have been better if I had not responded to the RfC. But since I did, let's both assume good faith and try our best. As I see it, you are earnest in your pleadings and fully sincere. However, the edits you wish to add are related to a very esoteric and not widely held view of what is and isn't significant in the Bible. I am pretty sure that the others here won't support you towards consensus, so on that basis alone, your avenue of adding that information is at this time closed to you. You would do better to add that information to a more suitable article and possibly link to that article from this. I mean no offense by this and I am sorry that my comments don't aid your objective. But this is how I see it and to say otherwise would patronize you and I prefer candor over the flattery of reflexive agreement.7390r0g (talk) 08:08, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, but you are mistaken.  The edits you are referring to were added by someone else.  The edits I am referring to are based on peer-reviewed journal articles written by biblical scholars. I can see how you can confuse the two things, as they both refer to the same topic, but the content is entirely different. Viriditas (talk) 08:12, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: History2007, I would like to inform you that your open declaration of blanket reverting any improvement and expansion of this article by myself is a violation of just about every known Wikipedia policy and guideline.  Please be aware that if you continue this behavior, I will be forced to contact an administrator.  There is nothing stopping me or anyone else from adding the biblical scholars I've cited above, and nobody has directly addressed my open requests for an explanation.  Your admission that you plan to blanket revert any edit I make in order to force me to "wait and talk more" is expressly forbidden.  Edits are only reverted for specific reasons, none of which you have explained.  At this point, History2007, you appear to be too close to this topic, so I would ask that you remove yourself from here before you get into trouble. Viriditas (talk) 06:34, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You know what I meant... I meant the 153 item here... and please do feel fee to complain to anyone any time anywhere... up to the united nations... you have no consensus. Period. History2007 (talk) 06:36, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes-- go ahead and contact an administrator now. Contact all of 'em if you like!  07:17, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It will happen soon enough with statements like "if he expands I will revert him", and the ongoing POV pushing.  I have no need of you to tell me to do anything; If I require your assistance, you will be notified. Viriditas (talk) 09:40, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Your planned and announced actions breach the guidelines and policies supporting the fundamental purpose of this encyclopedia.  Your status of a single-purpose account is one thing; Actively preventing other editors from improving and expanding articles within your topic of interests is quite another.  Cease and desist.  You have not addressed a single one of my questions, nor have you engaged in any discussion of the sources I have provided.  A discussion about consensus, therefore, can only take place after the edit has been made.  You will be so kind as to allow me to edit this article, dear sir, and I will be kind enough to forgo reporting you for planning and coordinating an edit war based on your POV pushing.  Scholarly sources clearly support the inclusion of a discussion involving the symbolism and imagery of the number 153.  You continue to claim without any evidence that this is a fringe opinion.  I have provided multiple sources showing that this topic has been discussed in the literature by experts in their respective fields, and is noteworthy and significant.  For you to claim that this is a fringe opinion, you will therefore need to support what you are saying with actual evidence, such as reliable sources.  Please do so, immediately, or admit that you have none and forfeit this argument.  Informed consensus rests upon the bedrock of evidence, not random opinion.  Please engage in this discussion with actual sources that claim that the 153 symbolism is a fringe topic.  Viriditas (talk) 06:44, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: There is no consensus on this issue, and consensus does not at any time override Wikipedia policy, for example, NPOV.   You have not engaged in any direct discussion about 153.  Informed consensus, based on actual discussion involving evidence is legitimate.  Instead, what you have done is dismiss evidence out of hand with vague claims of "fringe" without any substantiating references.  That's not how consensus works, and NPOV always comes first.  You're too close to this topic, and you need to take a step back and sit this one out.  Otherwise, address the sources I have offered and explain why they are not acceptable. Viriditas (talk) 06:52, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: That doesn't matter.  That statement, "I do not agree with you" does not address the evidence under discussion.  Whether you agree or disagree, statements of objection and support must be accompanied by actual discussion and evidence.  Why don't you agree?  Because you claim it is fringe.  Why is it fringe?  I'm still waiting for the answer to that question, and I have repeatedly asked it for the last week without response.  Please answer it or forfeit the argument. Viriditas (talk) 06:56, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: That link points to this discussion.  Please explain the answer using your own words.  To date, nobody has explained why the biblical symbolism of the number 153 cannot be discussed in this article.  According to good scholarly sources, there is significant discussion on the topic and some of it belongs here.  If you disagree, explain why.  Viriditas (talk) 06:59, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: No, that is a duplicate link that you already provided.  Please explain your objection to the 153 in your own words, here, in reply to my request, paying special attention to your claim that it is "fringe".  For example, which scholarly source claims that a discussion of the biblical symbolism of 153 is fringe?  If you can't find one, then your claim isn't supported.  Viriditas (talk) 07:07, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: "I do not agree with you...Answer is here...Explanation is here...I already did" - none of this consists of actual discussion, evidence, or counterarguments.  Consensus is based on actual discussion involving actual evidence, not vague declarations of opposition or support.  If you can't answer my questions on the talk page, then simply admit it.  You have not explained why the 153 symbolism is considered fringe, nor have you provided any sources supporting your viewpoint.  Therefore, your objection cannot be taken seriously.  I'm glad you find this funny, but the talk page is used to improve the article, not to disrupt it. Viriditas (talk) 07:15, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text: There is no consensus "against me" because you have not addressed any of the issues that I have raised.  You have dismissed, out of hand, any discussion of symbolism and imagery related to the number 153, a significant topic found in the peer-reviewed, biblical literature.  You claim that it is "fringe", yet you cannot explain why or support your claim with an actual scholar who says it is fringe.  What we are left with is a campaign of POV pushing by you and History2007, which is not supported by policy.  In other words, you have not been able to argue against the inclusion of the 153 material.  I have shown that scholarly sources found it significant.  You have not, on the other hand, provided the same sources which dismiss it. Please do so. Furthermore, the current state of this article shows beyond a doubt that you do not understand how we write encyclopedia articles. Viriditas (talk) 07:22, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: @Viri. I think what they are saying is there's no consensus that your requested additions are apropos to this particular article. I am not arguing that there is/is not truth or peer review supporting your suggestions. And I am not saying you are wrong about the meaning. What I feel is that the mainstream view of the Bible does not include studies of such esoteric aspects. It borders on fringe - so far as it's public acceptance level. I urge you consider adding this material to a more appropriate article. 7390r0g (talk) 09:42, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Those sources represent mainstream views of the bible.  An encyclopedia article can include good interpretations, commentary and analysis from experts in their respective fields.  I am not arguing for inclusion of the material from the 153 (number)#In the Bible article.  I am talking about rewriting the article with the sources I have offered above and others.  If you find something wrong with the ones I've raised, please tell me the problem. Viriditas (talk) 13:11, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am uncertain how you arrive at "mainstrem views of the Bible". There are two camps when it comes to the Bible: 1) Those who start with the premise that it's "inspired" (ie: written by the Holy Spirit, via the vehicle of human scribes) and 2) those who do not. Now which of these two "mainstreams" would you say your sources fall under? 7390r0g (talk) 19:16, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You are uncertain about the sources because you have not looked at them.  As for the false dilemma you present above, there are not only two camps "when it comes to the Bible", there may be those who think it is both or posit other choices.  I fail to see what either of these things has to do with writing an encyclopedia article on the subject.  However, if you feel it is important, perhaps you could look at the sources yourself (without dismissing them out of hand) and tell me which camp you think they fall under and why this is important? Viriditas (talk) 04:38, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: @Viriditas. I don't have a dog in the fight, so please bear with me. Regarding my "two camps" contention, if we don't agree on this, there is no point in talking. The "inspired by God" vs. "written by man" debate is the central debate regarding the accuracy of the Bible and if you deny this, what point is there in talking? That said, I am advancing no position here as I do not seek to add material to the article. On the other hand, since you do seek to add material, it's incumbent upon you to make your case. From what I know about the Bible and those who study it, a large majority of those who study it look at it as "inspired by God". But, in addition to them, there is a significant minority who look at it as "writtien by man". Now, if the advocates of your 153 views claim to be in camp #1, I'd say that's definately a fringe view for that camp. However, if they are in camp #2, it may not be fringe for that group, but I'd need to know more. And in any case, I am pretty sure most reasonable people would agree that this series of articles is not intended to focus on esoteric interpretations which appeal to limited numbers of people. Estoteric interpretations of widely read material should go into articles specifically intended to explore the esoteric aspects. If I am not mistaken, that is the central miscommunication happening here. You think that because you can "prove" your case, the material belongs in this particlar article. "True" or not I don't think that material belongs in this particular article (as opposed to elsewhere on WP) and I have said as that as plainly and as kindly as I can. 7390r0g (talk) 07:15, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: 153? not significant by any mainstream measure

message: Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#Viriditas, Talk:Miraculous catch of fish#Sources supporting inclusion of a section interpreting the meaning of the 153 fish  10:39, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *If its a content dispute then watchers of this page should be notified. Wikiquette dispute can be posted here also. As it says at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts/Beginning, "continue discussing it at its original location"]] Please try to not be quite so much of a control freak.  12:49, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Carl, but is there a talk you to death alert to post on his page too? History2007 (talk) 13:08, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I get the fact that you and Carl "agree" and "disagree" with each other, but you need to add reasons and evidence to these things in order for the discussion to make sense.  If this isn't clear or easy to understand, feel free to ask questions, but there is no consensus on Wikipedia that is based on agreeing or disagreeing.  It requires actual discussion. Viriditas (talk) 13:11, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it is this way: we agree with each other, disagree with you. History2007 (talk) 13:27, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, that's not how the discussion page is used.  Anyone can agree or disagree, but that's not how we resolve a discussion.  All discussion participants are encouraged to work towards agreement.  Towards this end, I have asked you and Carl many questions, none of which have been answered.  If you can't collaborate or work towards resolution, then you probably shouldn't be using the talk page.  This page has one purpose-to improve the article.  Right now, the article looks pretty bad, and I came here with concerns about your forking of this article into four separate articles.  Without waiting for the discussion to end, you decided to act unilaterally (once again, after all that's how the problem started) and merged and moved the article with Carl's help.  I understand that you and Carl did this to work towards resolution, but you didn't talk about doing it during the active RFC, you simply disappeared for four days and did it.  The entire purpose of the RFC was to decide this outcome.  It was not to facillitate your little vacation and unilateral action on the matter.  In any case, we are past that point and we have moved on to the issue of 153.  Instead of continuing to act unilaterally, I am asking you to explain your reasoning behind your disagreement.  Recently, you described the 153 issue as "fringe".  In response, I gave you several different names of biblical scholars, papers, and publications that cover the topic.  I then asked you to explain to me how this could be considered fringe.  You have so far, refused to respond, instead you have issued threats of a future edit war, claiming that you will revert any attempt to expand this article.  This kind of behavior is not acceptable.  WikiProject Christianity has about 31,522 articles, of which about 31,438 require improvement.  Is there a reason you are preventing improvement of a small stub that contains only 661 words, while thousands of important articles go ignored?  Do you understand that stubs are supposed to be expanded and that my action on this matter is supported entirely by the sources, the policies, the guidelines, and most of all, common sense? Viriditas (talk) 13:46, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

text:  Now we have four people on one side vs Viri on the other side. My prediction: he may yet say that none of the 4 people  have elucidated their arguments well enough, etc. etc. etc. and type another dissertation on how encyclopedia articles "should be" written. Let the games continue.... History2007 (talk) 13:47, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The only problem is that these "sides" aren't real.  I don't support the material being taken from the 153 article and placed in this article, and I've never made that argument.  I support rewriting this article and expanding it with new information from new sources.  The current article is a stub, and does not represent broad encyclopedic coverage of the topic. Viriditas (talk) 13:51, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Stub flag was before the merge. Now it is start. If John says it is Ok, that means a lot, if you look at the class of work he has done before. History2007 (talk) 13:56, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The assessment aside, the article is still stubby.  I appreciate John's opinion and I thank him for it.  But, I am still here, and I think for myself. Unlike John, I am not "happy" with the basic form of this article, and I can find no precedent for it. Viriditas (talk) 14:00, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

text: I support keeping article as it is, per John, and could also support expanding, but not rewriting it. I don't think it will ever be a canidate for FA, but more information on interpretion, aside from 153, could be added if someone wants. Interpretion of the 153 might be added to linked articles.  01:54, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Carl. But do not see a huge rush to expand anyway, but 153 is certainlynot suited here.... Now let us get ready for another lecture on how it "should be done".... History2007 (talk) 01:57, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, but such a proposal is not only unprecedented and unheard of, it is simply unacceptable at every level.  We do not "freeze" articles as stubs to prevent their development, nor do we vote against "rewriting" a poorly written, poorly sourced stub.  This kind of proposal cannot be taken seriously, and will not be followed. If you cannot address the problems with this article or why you objection to standard scholarly interpretation and discussion of symbols and imagery, then you should probably focus on one of the 31,438 other project articles that need work.  Viriditas (talk) 04:27, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Spinning out of control: Alert posted

message: I have tagged this article with the  tag because the amount of cleanup required to meet style and content guidelines and policies would necessitate the use of more than one cleanup tag. First, this article needs to use good, scholarly sources on the subject, which it currently lacks.  Second, the current article consists mostly of two plot summaries rather than a discussion and commentary on the subject.  Third, significant discussion of the imagery and symbolism is discussed in the biblical literature and should be represented. Viriditas (talk) 04:33, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If you don't to call a vote, I will. Why don't you want to vote? Let me guess now.... History2007 (talk) 04:42, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, this is not the place to vote on Wikipedia policies and guidelines.  Such things are not open for consensus on article talk pages.  My request for rewrite is based on the problems I have raised; Please address them.  We do not vote "oppose" or "support" when it comes to improving articles.  We address the problems, and fix them.  For example, an editor has added a reference to author John Clowes and his 1817 work , The Miracles of Jesus Christ.  Could you explain why this author, this work, and this old interpretation is important to this article?  From what I can tell, the Rev. John Clowes appears to be part of the Swedenborgianism movement, and the source is not current for our use.  Reliable sources on Wikipedia, tend to be authoritative, accurate, and current.  Of course, if Clowes has an opinion on the subject, we should consider attributing the opinion to him. Viriditas (talk) 04:56, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Another editor has added  Presbyterian minister Rev. Herbert Lockyer, Jr.'s All the Miracles of the Bible (1988).  This is part of a bible study series published by Zondervan.  I looked at parts of  Lockyer's book on Amazon, and I'm not sure if it is a good fit for our purposes.  Of course, if he has an opinion on the matter, I would argue for its inclusion with attribution, but I would like to see a more scholarly approach. Viriditas (talk) 05:04, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite 

message: *No one made proposal here... except you Viriditas. You may not mean you want a "total rewrite," and "rewrite" is vague-- so I think it better if we drop arguing about the term "rewrite" (and I agree we should not try to freeze the article per se). In fact we are not really discussing content in a useful way anymore. 
*Let us use the WP:BRD model-- which would means waiting for Viriditas to make some actual edits to the article and then discuss any that need reversion or discussion. 
*Viriditas, if you object to making these edits and risk reversion-- and I hope you don't-- you can still be a lot more clear and concrete about what you want to change, as part of the discussion, before we continue futher. 
*Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass.  07:38, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please [[WP:BRD|WP:'''B'''RD]] 

message: I added a few more references. I thought perhaps Viri would like to type a few thousand lines on each reference, discussing its suitability....  Keep typing Viri.... you are setting records buddy, you are setting records here.... I mean that: you are setting records.... By the way, none of the references mention the numerology angle, showing that it is fringe. Anyway, if you like, I can add ten more references, so you can type a few thousand lines about each... I will be glad to help... All you need to do is ask buddy... you are setting records here... Cheers History2007 (talk) 18:23, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop making fallacious appeals to negative proof.  We have affirmative evidence in good scholarly sources published current academic sources and peer-review journals, such as Richard Bauckham in Testimony of the Beloved Disciple, The: Narrative, History, and Theology in the Gospel of John (2007), Chapter 13, "The 153 Fish and the Unity of the Fourth Gospel"; D. A. Carson in The Gospel According to John (1991); R. Alan Culpepper's "Designs for the Church in the Imagery of John 21:1-14", in Imagery in the Gospel of John: Terms, Forms, Themes, and Theology of Johannine Figurative Language (2006); Culpepper cites Corrado Marucci's 2004 article, "Il significato del numero 153 in Gv 21,11 in Rivista Biblica; Craig S. Keener in [The Gospel of John: A Commentary] (2003); Mark Kiley's "Three More Fish Stories (John 21:11)" (2008) in  Journal of Biblical Literature 127:3.  Augustine of Hippo and Saint Jerome also discuss the topic in their writings, and this is covered in secondary sources.  That's just a small sample of reliable sources on the topic.  You recently added references to Frederick Fyvie Bruce, Daniel J. Harrington, Timothy Johnson, and  Kevin Quast and claimed that because they did not discuss the topic it must be fringe.  That's not true, and it isn't how we make good arguments.  The fact is, there is nothing "fringe" about the topic.  The number has been discussed extensively in the literature and deserves to be represented in this article.  This current article is not encyclopedic; It has become a plot summary and quote farm from the bible, rather than an article about the bible passage.  That isn't appropriate.  This article needs to represent significant views on the subject including interpretation, opinion, and commentary from experts. A good example of a beginning encyclopedic treatment of the subject can be found in the Oxford Bible Commentary (2001) by John Barton and John Muddiman.  William Barclay also covers it in The Gospel of John (1975), Volume 2.  The number of biblical scholars who discuss this topic is extraordinary. This puts to rest the false claim from you and Carl that this topic is fringe.  Reputable biblical scholars and authors have covered this topic throughout the literature.  We have more than enough reliable sources to discuss it here. Viriditas (talk) 00:22, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow fallacious appeals to negative proof... I am still trying to figure out what that means.... and I used to be a logician.... go figure.... In the meantime, the Oxford ref said that Gematria was no good since it leads to arbitrary hypotheses. I agree with that ... So I would say is frindge.... since it may mean that Mary Magdalene wrote the Gospel of John.... a very fringe idea.....I will add more refs, then maybe you can write 10,000 more lines.... you are setting records buddy... records.... now also in logic... yCheers. History2007 (talk) 01:49, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi.  I'm glad you are starting to address the evidence for the first time.  I appreciate that and hope we can continue along this path.  Thanks for looking at the Oxford reference and for bringing it up for discussion.  Since many of the refs say basically the same thing as the Oxford source, I'm curious why you think we can't use it.  I understand that you think it is fringe, but considering the fact that it is covered by many reliable sources, there is no problem with using it.  I understand that you are concerned about the implications it raises, but that's why I have asked you to find good sources on your end that address this problem so we can talk about why biblical scholars disagree with these interpretations and why they agree with others.  In other words, our job is not to ignore the various interpretations, but to best represent the opinions on the subject. Viriditas (talk) 09:47, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: refs and fringe

message: In the above section, whereby V mocked my very reasonable motion, V stated "You cannot use consensus to... prevent the expansion of articles." which of course is 100% wrong as consensus is exactly the mechanism used to control article content. This problem clearly will not be resolved without someone in authority explaining the rules to V. That said, I didn't come to this article for a fight, so this will be my last edit here at this time. 7390r0g (talk) 14:30, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Your motion is not reasonable; It is blatant, unabashed trolling. You followed me here from the climate change articles to hound me, and your account has a long history of disruptive editing.  I asked you to stop what you were doing on your talk page, and you said you would, but you haven't-you've merely escalated the disruption.  For those who don't recognize your trolling for what it is, we do not use "consensus" to prevent discussions on talk pages, nor do we use "consensus" to prohibit article expansion.  There isn't a single fact or accurate assessment of this discussion in your "proposal", and it's quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.  Now, please, go away. Viriditas (talk) 15:16, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Your accusation is 100% totally false and is a personal attack. I came here as a result of your RfC - you personally asked if WP should include "esoteric" information relating to the number 153 in this article and I gave my honest answer, which is "no". That said, your suggestion that I "go away" is a needless taunt as I already have stated as much. My final position is clear: I do not support your suggestion and frankly, do not like how you speak to me. I will not knowingly respond to any post by you at any time in the future on any article. 7390r0g (talk) 15:55, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: But you will continue to hound me wherever I go?  Isn't it time you stop?  You are, of course, welcome at any time to actually address a single thing I have said in regards to this topic on this page, but I suspect it will be a cold day in hell before that happens.  There's many different scholarly sources that I've offered above for discussion.  Why don't you show your good faith and address one of them?  You won't, because you aren't here to improve the article.  I don't need anyone to explain the rules to me, 7390r0g.  I need you to follow them.  To reiterate what I've said above, your entire proposal is ridiculous.  First, it does not accurately represent anything I've written; Second, it does not use consensus to help improve this article, but instead, proposes closing down the talk page and prohibiting article expansion.  That's not what we use consensus for here, 7390r0g, and I think you know that.  Nobody is forcing you to engage in discussion, and you don't need consensus to walk away.  If you aren't here to discuss the topic or expand and improve the article, then why are you here?  You're here because you followed me over from the Obama and climate change articles to cause more trouble. Viriditas (talk) 16:06, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Viriditas misstates scope of consensus power 

message: Could someone explain why this article is called "miraculous catch of fish" and who first referred to it as such? It is my understanding that the incident was not referred to as a miracle in the original Greek, and in fact the word "miracle" does not appear in the original text at all.  If this is an issue of translation, it should be made clear who first used this term and when.  Encyclopedia articles generally go into the etymology of a word or term, and discuss the history of usage.  It would also be helpful to reflect on alternate descriptions of this event, perhaps from a neutral perspective, although I have no problem with the current title. Viriditas (talk) 12:51, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: I note that all the various "miraculous catch of fish" articles have been merged, which seems sensible.  There is also a 153 (number) article, which has its own existence under Wikipedia:WikiProject Numbers.  It's a notable number, and properly sourced information about the number naturally goes there (there is a lot of improperly sourced and false information in circulation on the number).
The 153 (number) article has an "In the Bible" section which naturally belongs there, because (1) the Biblical use is notable (witness its mention in The Penguin Dictionary of Curious and Interesting Numbers), and (2) symbolism based on the number's mathematical properties is appropriately discussed in the article which mentions those properties.
It may make sense for this article to replicate or summarise some of that information.  Whether or not that is done, the link to that article should be retained, in my opinion. -- Radagast3 (talk) 23:39, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, and there is already a link to that article, where the number info is found. History2007 (talk) 00:31, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relationship to [[153 (number)]] article 

message: I notice the descriptions of the miracles have several unreferenced scripture quotations, which may be copyright violations, depending which version was used. -- Radagast3 (talk) 00:17, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've handled this by rewording most quotes, and referencing the others. -- Radagast3 (talk) 00:51, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you did really well with your clean up. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 13:41, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scripture quotations 

message: This article is based on the premise that the New Testament tells of two separate incidents involving a mysterious draught of fishes.The writer might have defended this view against a contrary opinion even if he or she held this to be erroneous. The problem here lies in the fact that Luke and John seem to mutually exclude the possibility of a miraculous draft of fishes other than the one they relate in their respective account of such an incident. According to Luke the Disciples were commanded not to leave Jerusalem until the final appearance of Jesus before leaving the world (in The Acts, on Ascension Day). Luke for his part links the incident with Peter's calling to become a disciple. In St John's Gospel Andrew and Peter became committed to Jesus when they were disciples of John the Baptist located on the banks of the river Jordan. Let us admit that they received a second calling when tending their nets beside the Sea of Galilee as Matthew, Mark and Luke himself attest. Only Luke among the writers of the Synoptic Gospels gives any account of a miraculous draught of fishes, and this in his gospel occurred on the day after the calling of the disciples by the Sea of Galilee, for Peter the third call in toto.The writer of the article obviated any discussion of this problem simply by omitting any reference to another viewpoint. 94.221.99.106 (talk) 20:27, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we played that ping-pong game for long. There used to be two articles, then discussion, then a merge, then discussion, then ping, then pong. Now, are you saying ping... ? History2007 (talk) 21:09, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If, as I presume, there is respectable scholarly backup for this view, it ought to be covered, but let's stick to one article. Johnbod (talk) 21:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, fortunately the referee declared an end to the ping pong game. Great. I did not feel like playing again. History2007 (talk) 21:15, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Problem of treating the NT accounts of the miraculous draught of fishes as two separate incidents