Talk:Culture of Ukraine

message: Raising that kind of thing on the level of separate is quite disproportionate, and as such, certainly violates the NPOV rule. I don't see any passages about "respect for authority" in any other articles about regional cultures, although there are definitely differences in it. Furthermore, the sole purpose of that subsection is to demonstrate the reputed disrespect as a negative feature. For comparison: everybody who knows anything about Russian culture knows the famous saying of historian Nikolai Karamzin about summarizing Russia in one word: "Stealing" ("Voruyut"). There is no subsection about theft and corruption in the article Culture of Russia, despite news about it reaching international media about twice a week. Well, at least "world's highest vodka consumption" is mentioned there, although not a word about drinking being a problem in Russia. In the article Culture of the United States there is a subsection titled "Gun culture" without a word about school shooting and mass murders which in the eyes of foreigners are an outstanding feature of the U.S. culture, in heavy contrast to other developed countries. My point is not that we should insert dirt-digging subsections in the articles about different cultures, but that we don't do it as a rule, and we shouldn't do it with Ukraine, either. --Ehitaja (talk) 11:59, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I've done a comparison of "Culture of country X" articles surrounding Ukraine, and none of them focuses on socio-economic/political problems in a society. (The templates for every article have these sections: "History People Languages Mythology and folklore Cuisine Festivals Religion Art Literature Music and performing arts Media Sport Monuments Symbols". The text of each article roughly follows this structure as well.) Not that something like corruption cannot be part of "culture" (arguably it is), but mentioning such issues in "Culture of country X" articles appears not in line with established conventions of English Wikipedia. I think we best remove this section. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:59, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree in every one of the points of User:Nederlandse Leeuw. However, I still think it is appropriate to mention what I think is the point behind the previously mentioned section: i.e. that most Ukrainians traditionally not only identify with, but actively engage in antiestablishmentarianism. Something which can arguably be traced back to the Cossack rebellions, laying a red thread throughout most of Polish-Lithuanian and Imperial Russian history. (And arguably also Soviet history, though of course with a different character). —VladVP (talk) 20:51, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I wonder whether 1. this is demonstrable with reliable sources and not just some invented tradition. After all, a great many other 'national' cultures (including the one I grew up in) claim to be rebellious, anti-authority, freedom-loving etc. and often tie that to a narrative of national history as a series of rebellions against foreign domination, usually culminating in a declaration/war of independence that is cited as 'the vindication of the freedom-loving spirit of the nation', or something along those lines. 2. Even if we were to find RS backing up such claims, I'm not sure if this is the appropriate article for it. Ukrainian nationalism seems more the place to discuss such ideas about national identity or character etc. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:09, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Respect for authority", really? 

message: You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Odessa § Requested move 11 July 2022.  Rei (talk) 00:40, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion at [[:Talk:Odessa#Requested move 11 July 2022|Talk:Odessa §&nbsp;Requested move 11 July 2022]]

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. per WP:NCCST and WP:TITLECON. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 (talk) 16:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Culture of Ukraine →  – No sources in the article are talking about "Culture of Ukraine" but of "Ukrainian culture" as well as article content. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:42, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 16 May 2024 

message: Greetings @AirshipJungleman29, your change  of "Ukrainian culture" to "The culture of Ukraine", while goes in line with the article name, is an obvious indicator that there should be Ukrainian culture page: to define the culture of Ukraine as being composed of the material and spiritual values of the Ukrainian people that has formed throughout the history of Ukraine. Strong family values and religion, alongside the traditions of Ukrainian embroidery and folk music are integral aspects of the country’s culture is not correct. That's not the definition of the culture of Ukraine, but much closer to the definition of Ukrainian culture.
See also, for example, History of Ukrainian Culture (knmu.edu.ua):
You can find in the scientific literature two definitions: Ukrainian culture and culture of Ukraine. They are not identical. Ukrainian culture is the result of creativity of all Ukrainians (even that groups and communities where live abroad). Culture of Ukraine includes masterpieces of representatives of other nations and cultures, but they existed and created on the territory of our state (Ukraine) or the Crimean peninsula. For example, the mosk (DjumaOdjami) in Evpatoria was designed by Hoca Mimar Sinan (? –1588), the famous Ottoman architect. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps there is some sort of language difference here.... are you referring to Ukrainian diaspora? Moxy🍁 21:18, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Ukrainians abroad are Ukrainian diaspora, and the source says that Ukrainian culture is the result of creativity of all Ukrainians (even that groups and communities where live abroad), i. e. Ukrainian culture includes the description of their diaspora's culture, but the Culture of Ukraine article - Culture of Ukraine includes masterpieces of representatives of other nations and cultures, but they existed and created on the territory of our state (Ukraine) - is not including that. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:22, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: This doesn't make any sense. Until this is explained legibly I don't foresee anything happening. Moxy🍁 21:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Well perhaps I didn't understand what you are asking? Ukrainian diaspora is the community of Ukrainians abroad. Where do we go from here? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:30, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you trying to say that Ukrainians in Ukraine have a different culture than Ukrainian diaspora around the world? Moxy🍁 21:41, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not for us do decide but to describe the similarity or differences, as well as other aspects, like representation, spread, coverage, mixing aspects, and others, per RSs. Which are plenty available on Ukrainian culture subject. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:47, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

text: I think it's fairly clear, MAE is talking about the distinction between "the total sum of culture by people of any ethnicity living within the borders of Ukraine" and "culture produced by ethnic Ukrainians anywhere". But we already present this distinction of topics through having separate articles for Culture of Ukraine and Ukrainians--an article about an ethnic group is inherently an article about its culture, it is redundant and a disservice to readers to create a separate article titled Ukrainian culture that is just about the cultural exploits of Ukrainians. It would also be unprecedented among countries/ethnicities covered on Wikpedia, as far as I can tell signed, Rosguill talk 21:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: exactlyWhy? As soon as there are enough independent RSs covering the article subject per Wikipedia:Notability, the article has all the rights to exist. WP:NOTPAPER. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:45, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

text: What's wrong with Ukrainians#Culture? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:47, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing wrong, and it's also OK to have an article dedicated to the topic. Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia, but a digital encyclopedia project. There is no practical limit to the number of topics Wikipedia can cover, or the total amount of content - WP:NOTPAPER . We have the subject that is notable per Wikipedia:Notability so I went ahead and created separate article. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you bother to read further than those two sentences? I suspect not, seeing as you clearly did not read the discussion you cited in this edit summary; if you had, you would have seen that there is no consensus for the change. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:55, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition