Talk:Meir Kahane/Archive 1

message: The question is, Why was Kach labeled a terrorist organization? I don't know. And you don't know. Now, let's look at  at the bottom of the page, under "Terrorist Activity". One of the things there is protests against the Israeli government. Another is *threatening* to attack Arabs. And finally we have a shooting eight years ago for which they claimed responsibility. ( does not even mention this shooting.) Sure sounds like a terrorist organization to me! And of course, this is an article about Kahane. He never praised Goldstein.
:"Terrorist activities of Kach include praising Baruch Goldstein for murdering Palestinian civilians.  "
Well, no.  It's not a terrorist act to praise someone for murder, though it is both callous and damndably stupid.  "Notorious" might be the adjective you're looking for.  Also, who/what is "Kach"?  Any explanation of that?  a link to him/her/it perhaps?  a short description?  --Koyaanis Qatsi
:I wonder how Kahane who was killed in 1990 could praise the act of Goldstein 4 years later? I wish people could stick to the facts and not do name-calling. --Uriyan
::Well, not Kahane, but Kach perhaps, I'm not sure. KQ, Kach means "thus", "this way" in Hebrew and is the movement/party organised by Kahane. --AV
I might be mistaken here, but I believe it was the Israeli government that described Kach as a terrorist group. I'm not exactly sure what they did to get this title, but I think that praising Goldstein was one thing. Some other editor had stated that its terrorist activities were "protesting against the Israeli government", which sounds to me to be just pro-Kach apologetics. I looked for what they did to get called that by the Israeli government, and praising Goldstein was the only thing I could find. -- SJK
I'd like to know more about any terrorist activities by Kach in Israel.  However, attacks in the United States by the JDL cannot be denied (such as the murder of Alex Odeh).  I've modified the page mentioning Kahane's belief in the genocidal nature of the Palestinians. -- GCarty
In 1994 the Anti-Defamation League put out a booklet entitled "Extremism in the Name of Religion: The Violent Legacy of Meir Kahane."  They provide at the end of that publication two chronologies, for Israel and the U.S., respectively, of violent actions committed by Kahane or his followers.  Each instance is sourced with references.  There are seventeen instances in the Israeli chronology up to Kahane's death, and another twelve from then until early 1994.  These include numerous acts of arson, conspiracy to blow up the Muslim monuments on the Temple Mount, a long list of acts of physical violence against Arabs and Christian missionaries, rioting, inciting riots, assaulting police officers, disturbing the peace, and a number of bombings.  For instance: 3.3.1973, ten Kach members are tried for setting fire to the International Center for Holy Scriptures in Jerusalem; 6.12.1972, two Kach women convicted of setting fire to Christian missions; 10.25.1982, government declares Kach posters praising the Sabra and Shatile refugee camp massacres illegal; 8.28.1991, two Kach members are arrested after illegally entering Petah Tikva prison, armed with submachine guns, in an attempt to assassinate two Palestinian representatives undergoing questioning there for suspected PLO links; 4.14.1992, two Kach members are arrested for attempting to assault Yitzhak Rabin and assaulting a police officer.  The list goes on and on.  The chronology of violent acts in the US lists one hundred and forty (140) incidents up to the time of Kahane's death, and four after that.  These are of course two numerous to list, but they include a wide spectrum of terrorist activity, ranging from property-vandalism to murder. Masarra 17:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Why was Kach labeled a terrorist organization?

message: Should we be using the word claimed when talking about his views on palestinian origin? These opinions no mattter what you think of them are based on solid facts. There are many reputable sources of information when it comes to this issue (including quotes from prominant Arabs associated with the conflict).
:Anon, typically the word "claimed" is necessary if politicians make very uncommon or surprising claims. Such a claim may be taking one real aspect to an extreme. In this case there is some factual basis to the theory, although it has a strong political bias and little or no scientific merrit as such. Yet since there is some factual basis, there will be plenty of quotes to bring forwarded. Next, especially the references of the "enemies" will increase the trustworthiness of the theory with the supporters. gidonb 03:16, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Word "Claimed"

message: It is already impossible for a Jew and a non-Jew to marry in Israel, though they may get a civil marriage in Cyprus, and get it recognized in Israel: in other words, they can be married, but they cannot get married. The Orthodox rabbinate has a monopoly over Jewish weddings, and there is no civil marriage. 
What made Kahane's position truly a departure from current reality is that he proposed the criminalization of all sexual relations between Jews and non-Jews. (I seem to remember that he actually proposed the death penalty by stoning for this "crime", but we should wait until we find a source before we mention that in the article.) Hasdrubal 29 June 2005 22:12 (UTC)
:You're memory serves you wrong. It would help to read some of his literature and hear some of his various interviews, debates, etc. that he had in the United States. Research certainly helps. I'd suggest reading "Uncomfortable Questions For Comfortable Jews" which was written while he was a Knesset member. --24.47.31.1 23:56, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Kahane and sex

message: Could this article be any more of a fan letter?  Kahane was a goddamned racist theocrat.  Perhaps the article could briefly touch on what a hate-driven, twisted little warmonger he was.
*Hey, you sound pretty hateful yourself! Having a bad hair day, or are you just a "little" anti-semite"? Hard to tell since you haven't signed your hissing comments with the required Wikipedia user name or with the tildes ~~~~ and remember, for all of Kahane's heated talk, which never amounted to anything in any case in terms of reality, it was he himslef who was the victim of real life Arab terrorism and paid for it with his life. So shame on you! IZAK 21:46, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: This article

message: Over the past few days, there have been some interesting changes made to the article by anon contributors (apparently Kahane sympathizers, but making an effort towards NPOV.) IMO, these changes are not vandalism, but provide a minority viewpoint which the article was previously lacking- a description of Kahane's methods and goals, as seen through the eyes of his supporters.Rearden Metal 18:42, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mid-December revisions

message: NPOV means stating facts, not specuating on motivation. 
Fact: In 2000, Arafat led his people in a violent uprising against the Jewish State.
Speculation/POV (Not acceptable for Wikipedia):
In 2000, Arafat led his people in a violent uprising against Israeli policy towards the Palestinians.
The second version is not a fact at all. Is 'Israeli policy towards the Palestinians' the root cause of Arafat's violence? Maybe, maybe not. Why did Arafat's PLO launch a campaign of violence (civil war) against the Maronites in Lebanon? What about his violence against the Jordanian government? Was 'Israel's policy towards the Palestinians' to blame for these examples of PLO belligerence?
Please state known facts, and leave personal opinions & speculations aside. Rearden Metal 22:39, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: RV speculation/POV on Arafat's motives

message: I was just wondering whether the following excerpt from "Israel" section was correct: 
"An important catalogue of press clippings extending over 30 years and classified according to more than 120 topics (politics, culture, religions, art, people etc) was purchased from he family and donated to the "Library for the History of Zionism" at Bar Ilan University, Ramat Gan." 
IMO it should be changed from "he family" to "his family", although in some contexts "the family" would also be appropriate.
What is your opinion?
--Volphy 16:30, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are right to be concerned about that.  I deleted it.  If someone wants to support it, they can come back with a citation. Not Ostrovsky by any chance? --Zero 11:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Error in "Israel" section

message: I deleted this section because I thought it was irrelevant to an article about Kahane: 
Other controversial assassinations of Jewish leaders in Israel's history
Meir Kahane's assassination was neither the first nor the last time that a Jewish leader would be shot in the midst of political controversies and upheavels during the history before and after the establishment of the State of Israel:
*Jacob Israël de Haan was assassinated by the Haganah on July 1, 1924 allegedly for his political stance, although there may have been additional factors stemming from strong feuds with others.
*Chaim Arlosoroff was shot while walking with his wife Sima on a beach in Tel Aviv in 1933. Some think that it was other Zionists who disagreed with his views that did it, or that it was Arabs or British or Nazis.
*Rudolf Kasztner was killed by an assassin March 15, 1957 in Tel Aviv. In the 1950s he was accused of profiting from his dealings with the Nazi occupation government in Hungary.
*Yitzhak Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel, was assassinated on November 4, 1995 by Yigal Amir who opposed the Oslo Accords.
*Rehavam Zeevi, an Israeli general who founded the right-wing nationalist Moledet party, was assassinated by agents of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine on October 17, 2001 during the Al-Aqsa intifada.
--68.211.69.230 22:28, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that this section is irrelevant.  A link to another page that has such a list would be ok.  Btw, thanks for the badly needed copy-editting. Am I right in thinking that you didn't change the content? --Zero 02:18, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Deleted section

message: Could anyone please point out to the source of information about Shoher's group? His spam makes circles on the internet, but I found no evidence of followers. It looks like he is just promoting his book. Quick search shows associations with some Alex Hertz from Jerusalem who seems too young to be an "experienced politician". Galilite 00:01, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obadiah Shoher 

message: Why is Meir Kahane in the catagory Israeli criminals?  what did he do that was illegal?  Futhermore isn't this catagory for people who are known because they are criminals like Mordechai Vanunu and Yigal Amir?  Jon513 13:24, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  catagory: Israeli criminals  

message: Removed "Category:Right-wing American terrorists". Yet another attempt to label Kahane retroactively. Can someone explain how he was a "terrorist" please? Was George Washington also a "terrorist" because he  did fight for his people, unlike Kahane who SPOKE OUT more than anything. If anything his "bark was worse than his bite", that is if he "bit" anyone at all. IZAK 08:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category:Right-wing American terrorists 

message: The following is not supported and because of it's extreme nature, needs to be proven and discussed here first. Was Rabbi Kahane "tried and convicted in Israel" for "conspiring to commit acts of violence"?
:"Kahane received a felony conviction in the United States for conspiring to make bombs and was tried and convicted in Israel for conspiracy to commit acts of violence in a foreign country."  
Please add your views. IZAK 08:35, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: IZAK, you're right about the country of course. So do you think he should go under "American criminals"? - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 09:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: What makes you think I am obsessed? Chalila! I am in fact quite relaxed. I would support adding the criminal cat to anyone convicted of a felony unless it was clearly baseless, like Dreyfuss. Barry and Cleaver were convicted it seems - and so was Kahane, no? I try to exercise super duper impartiality when it comes to Jewish topics. Take it easy, man. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 12:10, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Contempt is not a crime. Neither is being charged w/ something. BTW, the only reason I put Kahane on my watchlist is to watch out for anti-Kach vandalism! Your accusations completely miss the point. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 12:11, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added the cat to Kahane, Barry, Cleaver, and X. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 12:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh boy Crz, now you have the big job of sifting through :Category:Terrorists by nationality; :Category:People convicted on terrorism charges; :Category:African Americans' rights activists; :Category:Black Panther Party members; :Category:American activists; :Category:Ku Klux Klan members; :Category:Neo-Nazis; :Category:White nationalists; :Category:Anarchists; :Category:Islamists and then find all those that you can add weird labels to. Good luck! IZAK 12:44, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL. Maybe not. But if you see any mislabelled ones - hit 'em. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 12:55, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tried and convicted in Israel? 

message: ----
An anonymous user has changed the article from saying that Kahane refused to take the oath of office to saying that he took the oath with a qualification.  This needs to be reverted, as Kahane _did_ refuse to take the oath and attempted to use that refusal for a while to avoid certain restrictions that would have ensued upon his taking that oath. Masarra 20:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oath of Office 

message: I've deleted the anonymous edit that added the sentence about Kahane's opponents viewing him as "a terrorist who promoted violence."  This is misleading.  Kahane openly and explicitly promoted violence; this is a demonstrable fact, not an opinion of his opponents.  As to his being a terrorist, this has been determined not by his opponents but by the U.S. and Israeli intelligence and police agencies, social scientists and specialists on terrorism.  If you want to characterize how his opponents viewed him, it would be more appropriate to underline the many comparisons that were made between Kahane and the Nazis. Masarra 01:01, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Promotion of Violence