Talk:Saltire

message: Based on discussions in the Saltire and Saint Andrew's Cross articles, I request that Saint Patrick's Flag be merged into wherever those two articles eventually become merged into.  I propose a new article entitled Saltire Cross; encompassing the heraldic design and origin of the Saltire (also called the St. Andrew's Cross and St. Patrick's Cross), and the design's use on flags such as those of both Scotland and Ireland.  This would consolidate similar information, expand overall information on the same subject (the saltire), eliminate confusion, and make things more user-friendly.  Thanks!  --Dulcimerist 18:44, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Merge is complete. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 12:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request to Merge Article 

message: Is this the same type of cross that appears on the flag and herald of Amsterdam? There should be a cross-reference, if so.
:Yes, this design appears in triplicate on the flag of Amsterdam, and could be referred to in the article merger proposed above.  --Dulcimerist 18:44, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, I've already added a mention of Amsterdam to the article.  —Tamfang 06:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Amsterdam Flag 

message: Would there be much point in describing this saltire variation?  Although I don't know who St. Julian was, this heraldic design is the Cross Crosslet Saltire.  --Dulcimerist 05:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  St. Julian's Cross 

message: I would suggest it be broken out into a separate article again (as people have noted below that it was once a separate article).   I just did a bit of research into the matter and several dictionaries clearly differentiate between saltire meaning an X-shaped item of heraldry and St. Andrew's Cross meaning a physical X-shaped cross structure.  Googling around, it seems the BDSM community rarely if ever uses the word saltire, preferring St. Andrew's Cross.  (See )  They may share a shape, but heraldry and a physical wooden structure are different things used for different purposes and probably deserve separate articles.  IdahoEv 16:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The BDSM saltire used to have its own article, although it was really too short.  Someone proposed the merger on September 14, and a few weeks later, after no objections were received, I merged it with Saltire.  The word saltire is not ambiguous, so does not need disambiguation—the sex thing is just a type of saltire, just as the railway and road signage is.  If it ever gets its own article again, it still deserves a mention here, not a disambiguation.  The photo has no nudity, so it is not usual to call it hardcore.  --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 16:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It just seems sort of... weird. I'm not offended or anything, but just because it's a homonym and only really distantly related, doesn't mean it should be on the same page. It's better to leave it as a stub on another page and have a link at the top of the page for people who are looking for that sort of thing.--Pewpewlazers 22:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The stub would have to repeat the legend about Saint Andrew, which arguably lowers the taste even further.  Here it avoids repetition.  It is not a homonym: like all other saltires, it is so-called because of its shape.  --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

text: A sordid heraldry thing??  —Tamfang 20:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

text: An anonymous editor cut that section, with no edit summary and no comment here; not good practice. I've restored it (though I didn't restore the reference in the intro paragraph, which might have been more detailed than necessary). I agree with Hrothulf's comments above. Though some readers will find it "weird", it's hardly "distantly related", since these days I think virtually every instance of this design (the three-dimensional object, not the heraldic symbol) is in fact used for just that purpose. ←Hob 02:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Back in April, an experienced editor tagged the fetish/BDSM paragraphs as uncited, and in May, they deleted them according to policy.  New material on this topic is more likely to stay if it has references that meet the norms of WP:CITE Wikipedia:Verifiability .  --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 15:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The sex thing 

message: Is someone willing to clean up the references to the cross' use in fetish circles?  I think that if the wiki article on leather references leather fetishism and rock&roll stars; and if the article on Crisco references it's use as sexual lubricant (exclusively outside of North America, I might add) there is no reason why there cannot be a subsection in this subject (I readded the paragraph earlier today).  Here is a link to a website which sells the crosses:
http://www.masterrsdungeons.com/products.php?cat=26
Kurtto 04:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Back in April, an experienced editor tagged the fetish/BDSM paragraphs as uncited, and in May, they deleted them according to policy.  New material on this topic is more likely to stay if it has references that meet the norms of WP:CITE Wikipedia:Verifiability .  --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 15:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fetish Community (Revisited) 

message: In my major rework of the page I attempted to address the BDSM use (particularly Cadrac's observation above). It merits inclusion, alongside other non-heraldric uses of the terms Saltire / St Andrew's Cross. However, it does not need its own entire section (as it stood prior to my edit), nor mention in the introduction (which had already been removed). Perhaps the removal of that undeserved prominence in the table of contents will address concerns mentioned here.  Tofof (talk) 02:16, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Post-rework 

message: There is no citation for the following line about the flag of Scotland:
It is the oldest continuously used sovereign flag in the world, having been in use since 732 AD.
I think the claim is incorrect because of the following information found on the Wikipedia Scotland entry:
The Kingdom of Scotland was an independent state until 1 May 1707, when the Acts of Union (despite widespread protest across Scotland)[7] resulted in a union with the Kingdom of England to create the Kingdom of Great Britain.[8][9] Scotland's legal system continues to be separate from those of England, Wales, and Northern Ireland; and Scotland still constitutes a discrete jurisdiction in public and in private law.[10] The continued independence of Scots law, the Scottish education system, and the Church of Scotland have all contributed to the continuation of Scottish culture and Scottish national identity since the Union.[11] However, Scotland is no longer a separate sovereign state and does not have independent membership of either the United Nations or the European Union.
--Mrdarius 00:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sovereign Scotland? 

message: Is there information on the physical implement used, instead of just the symbol?  This used to exist in a seperate article, IIRC, called X cross - which used to cross-link to Saltire, so people who didn't know what that type of cross was called, could find the correct name.  The only non-symbol reference remaining in this article is "Saint Andrew is said to have been martyred on such a cross." and the link to BDSM fetish furniture.
~ender 2007-01-13 08:29:AM MST
This is an issue still not resolved - this article is the one linked to in other articles referring to physical St. Andrew's crosses (I think I came here from the breaking wheel article) and contains no information about them, four and a half years after the issue was first brought up here. *This* is why people don't take Wikipedia seriously. 173.56.90.38 (talk) 03:28, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The physical cross 

message: "(Nova Scotia was originally a Scottish colony)"
That doesn't seem correct at all...it was a colony of the United Kingdom (after having been a French colony, although clearly under a different name).
This kind of logic ssems to imply that New South Wales was a colony of South Wales....clearly false.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.216.227.145 (talk) 22:43, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: (Add new topics at the bottom, using the "new section" button.) According to Nova Scotia#History, colonization from Scotland began in 1621–2, well before the union with England in 1707. —Tamfang (talk) 08:28, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nova Scotia 

message: "The 10th Mountain Division of the US Army uses bayonets in saltire to represent the Roman numeral X (10)"
I do not think crossed swords are a saltire, which derives from Christian symbols.  There is a difference between the letter X and a Christian cross.Geo8rge (talk) 10:17, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Any pair of pole-like objects so arranged is described as in saltire.  The term refers to the shape, not to its symbolism. —Tamfang (talk) 18:41, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Further, the US Army heraldry specifically lists the bayonets as in saltire. Tofof (talk) 02:19, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 10th Mountain Division  

message: : A saltorel is a narrow saltire; the term is usually defined as one-half the width of the saltire, and is a relatively recent "innovation".
Why the scare-quotes on "innovation"? — I kinda thought a saltorel was a saltire couped, used as a common charge; French flanchis.  (My relevant books are in boxes.)  Am I befuddled? —Tamfang (talk) 06:04, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Removed these scare quotes, along with the entire (unsourced) claim about the novelty of the term. Tofof (talk) 02:20, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  saltorel 

message: Why was the before mentioned image put away?? It IS a St. Andrew Cross, Then?? Is there any reason why can't it be there?? Only yesterday it was still there!!--207.249.136.254 (talk) 17:29, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The image on its own (:File:CodexMendoza01.jpg) doesn't tell us much. What is it? Is the saltire a symbol, or a simplified representation of four rivers or canals? —Tamfang (talk) 16:26, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Perhaps we ought to have a picture of X-shaped bracing on a barn door, then. —Tamfang (talk) 19:03, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Once again I fail to grasp what you're getting at.  What do you mean by VALUES?  Are you citing Jung for the idea that every X is meaningful (because the viewer can see a saltire) even if the person who drew it did not intend meaning, or something of that sort?  If so, why not a barn door?  Would it be any less racist to insist on including something irrelevant because it is Mexican than to exclude something clearly relevant because it is Mexican?  (How about a Mexican barn door?)  Also, what do you mean by VALUES? —Tamfang (talk) 05:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: St. Andrew's Cross in Precolumbian Mexico image

message: This statement was made by the experienced metal-detectorist who found the "Dumfreisshire hoard" recently.  Does this imply that the Vikings introduced the Saltire to Scotland?  I thought St Andrew, or at least his becoming Scotland's patron saint, was associated with a Pictish king.  I'd never heard of the Saltire as a Viking symbol (though to be fair, I don't know that much about the Vikings) but the detectorist's comments appear to be understood by the world at large as reasonable.  However, a quick trawl of our articles on Saltire, Vikings and Dumfriesshire Hoard showed no explanation for it.  The idea of finding a Saltire in Scotland and immediately assuming it belonged to invaders rather than Scots does seem odd.  Does anyone here have the knowledge to add a section about it? Enginear (talk) 19:27, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think he was describing a saltire per se - probably it's a reference to the diagonal cross motif that is found on various Hiberno-Norse artifacts. See e.g. . Prioryman (talk) 14:29, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that seems to be it.  Is it worth a sentence of explanation? -- only one of the nine or so uses mentioned in Saltire#Other uses is actually a Saltire, and this usage seems more worthy of inclusion than most of them ... or alternatively perhaps the Other uses section should be considerably culled, before someone adds the letters X and x and the Greek letters Χ and χ, claiming that they are all Saltires, in spite of them all considerably pre-dating Christianity ;-) Enginear (talk) 00:12, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "I saw the Saltire-type of design and knew instantly it was Viking" 

message: see the emblem of University of Patras showing St.Andrews (died in Patras, is city's patron) and the X (Saltire cross?) on which he was killed by the Romans (tradition says they did it cause he said he was proud to die on Christ's cross)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.16.243.84 (talk) 15:29, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  St.Andrews did in X-shaped cross 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Saltire. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20081217101704/http://www.lemessager.net:80/details_articles.php?code=118 to http://www.lemessager.net/details_articles.php?code=118&code_art=24911
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 07:17, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: This week a paragraph on the bondage cross was added and reverted.  Didn't the article once have a hatnote for that?  I feel there ought to be a link somewhere, but the most natural place for it is not obvious to me. —Tamfang (talk) 21:16, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  the sex thing, again