Talk:Silesia/Archive 3

message: 1) Leave HRE out. IF medieval times are not important, then mentioning HRE as catch-all for German influences is wrong, since HRE was formality in most of modern times and ceased to exists in 1806. So, sentence "Silesia was either part of HRE or on borders of HRE for most of the millentium" is formally true, but does not give too much new information into article.
2) Also, how would Germans feel if I would put such, formally true, sentence: "SIlesia for most of 2nd century was either Polish province or situated on borders of Poland. Ties with Poland were decreasing over time until in 1945 it became part of Poland". 
: How we would feel about a sentence like that? Well, since it's simply false we would just laugh, I suppose.
::What's false about it? It was was either Polish (until 1327-1368) or on Borders of Poland (until 1792) so you have your "for most of 2nd century" part TRUE. Ties with Poland wer edecreasing but were always existing, with Poles being majority in some regions, and large minority in other well into XIX or even XX century. SO What's false in that sentence, Nico? szopen
: It is not the details from Heiliges Römisches Reich deutscher Nation  I think is interesting, and when HRRdN was mentioned it was meant as a compromise (by Ruhrjung), I think.
: You could also simply say: Silesia was historically German, and the large portion of the historical region is Polish today. You get half of the introduction, and the Germans get the other part of it.
: The most important is what Silesia is referring to in the English speaking world. You cannot deny that the historical German province is an important part of it, which have a natural place in the introduction. Details from medieval history have not a natural place in the introduction. The difference between Polish history in the middle ages and German history is: Silesia has been German for 618 years, and there is a continuity. Polish kings in the middle ages are unknown to our English readers, and not what they are searching for in the introduction. In the introduction of the United Kingdom article you wouldn't write that England is a former Danish colony either. But if Poland occupied England or Wales today, it would be rather stupid not to mention British history in the introduction of an article in this encyclopedia.  -- Nico 06:35, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestions for new intro 

message: Hi, Uncle Ed et al. !
Missed you all very much.
I will stay away from the major conflict here, (because after all, I'm biased myself), and just stick to Uncle Ed's "factoids":
What year is the "Catholic Encyclopedia" from? Because it sounds like Poland was not on the map, when the book was published.
 
Silesia has been: 
# Prussian Conquered by the Kingdom in Prussia in 1840/1842
# inhabited 3/4 by Germans, 1/4 by Poles (1905) this infamous "data collection" assumed anybody who had ability to speak german language, to be of German nationality, assumed everybody else to be Poles and completely ignored the Silesian nationality
# Slavonic (an 800 year period) 
# controlled by Poland (In 999 Silesia was conquered by the Poles)  there is no evidence of any military conflict at that time, so perhaps the word "incorporated" should replace "conquered"
# controlled by Bohemia (1327-29) 
# colonized by Germans (from around 1210) "destination for strong German immigration" would avoid lots of misunderstandings
# a battleground: the Hussite Wars (1420-37) 
# controlled by Hungary (1469) 
# "regarded as a dependency of Bohemia" (1526) 
# largely controlled by Prussia (after wars of 1740-2, 1744-5, 1756-63) 
# enlarged by adding half of Lausitz (Lusatia) 
# divided into Upper and Lower Silesia? 
# split: part of Silesia which remained an Austrian possession after 1763.
Sincerely 
Space Cadet 21:06, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Answering sysop's request for comments on "factoids" 

message: I don't like the idea of calling Silesia a European or Central European region, because it suggests that this is a disputed area (something like Northern Ireland), or that Silesia has some sort of special legal status, which is not the case.
* Polish Silesia is an integral part of the Republic of Poland.
* Czech Silesia is an integral part of the Czech Republic.
Stating these facts in the intro is not necessary, but we have to keep them in mind all the time, when writing about modern Silesia. We can discuss all the things, we can make every compromise, but there cannot be any discussion or any compromise about the territorial integrity of the two countries. 
I don't know if this comes from ignorance or bad will, but it is very disgusting that a couple of editors constantly try to avoid these facts by various words manipulation and text puzzles.
Previous version of the intro was much better - it is enough to say to the readers that Silesia is a region in SW Poland and NE Czech Rep.
Grzes of Poznan 20:07, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Silesia is an integral part of Poland and Czech Rep. 

message: :But Silesia wasn't historically a part of Poland until after 1945, and is not presently an actual political unit in either Poland or the Czech Republic.  Since when there actually *was* a specific political unit called "Silesia," said political unit was part of Germany/Prussia, it seems fair to simply call it a "European region" rather than a Polish region, ro whatever. john 09:54, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Silesia wasn't historically a part of Poland until after 1945, and is not presently an actual political unit in either Poland or the Czech Republic    

message: I'm afraid you are misinformed about history of Silesia. Poland emerged as a state in years 950-1000, when the first Polish monarchs Mieszko I and Boleslaus I the Brave had united a couple of Polish tribes (Polanes, Mazovians, Pomeranians, Vistulans, Opolians and Silesians) into one political body. This fact was acknowledged by the Pope and by the Roman Emperor, 2 most important political authorities of this time, by the creation of Polish church province in 1000 (archbishopric in Gniezno; bishoprics in Poznan in Greater Poland, Wroclaw in Silesia, Cracow in Little Poland, and Kolobrzeg in Pomerania).
Except for a short period of Bohemian rule in 1039-1050, the status of Silesia as part of Poland was not questioned for several centuries (until 14th century).
In year 1138 Polish duke Boleslaus III the Wrymouth has created a 'federal' or 'feudal' Polish state consiting of several provinces (Silesia among them). Provinces of Poland were to be ruled by the descendants of his 4(5) sons, but one of the duke (the oldest one) were to hold Cracow and to be the overlord or high-duke of all Poland, responsible for foreign, military and other national affairs. This was the preparation for a royal coronation. Again this 'constitution' was confirmed by the Emperor and the Pope. In the following years the dukes quarreled who should be the grand duke, but the constitution of Poland was not questioned.
Silesia, one of the provinces of Poland, was ruled by the descendands of Wladyslaw II, the oldest son of Boleslaw III. Because the Silesian dukes were the oldest branch of the Piast dynasty, they considered themselves to be destined to be the overlords of all Poland. In 12th-13th centuries Silesia became the strongest province of Poland (politically and economically) and this period is called the Monarchy of Silesian Henrys (Henry I, Henry II, Henry III, Henry IV). Preparations for the royal coronation were broken by the Tartar invasion in 1241 (Henry II died in the battle of Legnica/Liegnitz), and Henry IV almost achieved Polish throne before his death in 1290. Royal City of Cracow was inherited by Przemysl II of Poznan and he succeded to achieve Polish royal crown in 1295, there is no doubt that this royal coronation was prepared politically by the Silesian dukes, who considered themselvs dukes of Poland. 
After King Przemysl II death in 1296, the royal ambitions were inherited by his 2 nephews: Ladislaus II the Short of Cuiavia and Henry II of Glogow (in Silesia), but also by the Venceslas II of Bohemia, who took control of Cracow, married Przemysl's daughter and was crowned King of Bohemia and Poland in 1300. For the next 50 years or so there were 2 competing Polish kings in Prague and Cracow fighting each other and declaring his oponents decisions to be illegal. This dispute was resolved by a compromise. King of Cracow resigned his rights to most of Silesia and Masovia, and the king of Prague resigned his rights to the 'Polish' title. 
But still the Bohemian chancellery, Silesian cities, the chronicles authors in their documents had no doubt the the Silesian duchies and cities belong to the Kingdom of Poland (Regnum Poloniae). In 14th-15th centuries students from Silesia at the German universities were assigned to the Polish nation academic corporations.The Silesian dukes considered themselves the dukes of Poland, and they ruled their duchies until they died out in 1675. They called themselves The Piasts from the dynasty legendary founder (Piast), and the Piast term itself was invented in Silesia in 16th century. Silesian eclessiatical province of Wroclaw belonged to the Polish archbishopric in Gniezno up to the 18th century, although there were serious attempts to transfer it to the archbishopric of Prague. 
When time was passing the real political belonging of Silesia to the Kingdom of Bohemia was prevailing over the legal belonging of Silesia to the Kingdom of Poland. Since there was a significant difference between the legal boundaries of Poland, and the real boundaries of territories controlled by the Polish kings, the jurists had developed a legal definition of the difference between two legal bodies. 
* the Kingdom of Poland - means the territory of all the lands that belonged to the Polish kingdom, when it was first established in 1000/1025.
* Crown of the Kingdom of Poland - means the territories that are actually controlled by the the Polish king.
According to this legal definitions Silesia and Pomerania belonged to the Kingdom of Poland, and did not belong to the Polish Crown. On the other hand Red Ruthenia belonged to the Crown, and did not belong to the Kingdom. The medieval documents show that these terms were used frequently and had significant legal meaning. For example a couple of provincial dukes sweared their oaths to the Polish King, the Kingdom, and Crown of the Kingdom.
 The legal status of Silesia was that the province belonged to the Kingdom of Poland, and at the same time it belonged to (was controlled by) the Crown of St. Venceslas (or Bohemian Crown). Poland was an electoral monarchy probably since 1177 and certainly after Polish-Lithuanian Union in 1386. Every Polish royal pretender between 1370 and 1772 could attain the Polish throne on the sole condition that he will sign a document guaranting nobility priviledges, integrity of Polish Kingdom and promise to do everything to get back the lost lands on his own cost. 
The 16th century Polish historian Jan Dlugosz (Dlugosius, Longinus) author of the multi-volume Chronicles of the Polish Kingdom, commenting the end of the 13-year war (1454-1466) wrote that he is very happy that Gdansk Pomerania and Prussia had returned to Poland, but he would be even more happy if Poland could re-claim other lost lands: Silesia, Lubusz land and Slupsk/Szczecin-Pomerania. His cronicles were the main source of historical and political thinking in Poland in 16th-18th century and this means that the legal rights of Poland to Silesia were never forgotten.
In the 18th century Poland became a weak country and these rights could not be executed. In the partitions of Poland (1172-1795) even the Polish state ceased to exists, but the Polish political nation and Polish Kingdom were not liquidated. The Kingdom was always considered to be a sacred thing - it continues to exist even if there no King. Existence of the Polish political nation was proved by its amibiton to return to the political map of Europe, the repeating Polish uprisings, and peaceful national activities. 
These political Polish dreams came true when Poland regained its independence in 1918 and regained the lost territories in 1945. 
From legal point of view, Silesia was part of Poland for all the time since the foundation of Poland in 1000, and it doesn't matter if the province was actually in hands the Polish monarchs or temporarily controlled by other political bodies. The Polish monarchs had invited many guests from other countries to settle in Poland to find a better life. They and their decendants were guaranteed significant political, language and economic freedoms and rights. But they and their decendants also had a political obligation - to be loyal to the Polish dukes and kings. Most of them were loyal. We are very sorry we had to expell from Poland those who were not loyal.
Grzes of Poznan 14:30, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Silesia is and was a legal part of Poland 

message: In the east of what is today Germany's state "Saxony", in the Region around the city of "Görlitz", also a small part of Silesia today still belongs to Germany. In the Introduction is said, that Silesia is today a part of Poland and the Czech Republic. I think this German part should be added.
Some were arguing that Goerlitz historically is part of Lusitz, not of Silesia. I have no opinion in that case szopen
In years 1816-1827 the historical region of Lusatia (Lausitz, Łużyce) was disbanded by the Prussian government and distributed between the provinces of Brandenburg, Saxony and Silesia. In my opinion the Goerlitz area is not part of modern or historical region of Silesia and that's why it should NOT be mentioned in the introduction. However it should mentioned in the history section and/or geography/geographical-division section. Besides it is controversial if the name of Goerlitz area should be used here. The city of Goerlitz/Zgorzelec is located on both banks of Nysa/Neisse river and belongs in half to Germany, in half to Poland. Grzes of Poznan(caius2ga) 12:05, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is the Görlitz area part of Silesia? 

message: I've heard nearly a dozen opinions. Should we vote on it, or what?
Is Silesia an historical region, like Palestine? An area populated by people of a certain ethnicity, like Kurdistan?
: Silesia is an historical region which was German for almost 700 years until 1945. By that time, 3/4 of the population were Germans. Silesia do not exist as a political unity anymore, and is divided between Poland, Germany and the Czech Republic. The large portion of the historical region Silesia is Polish today. Nico 06:55, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Ultimately, there will be many points on which contributors disagree. The only solution possible is to say that some people, particular Polish, say THIS and other, particularly Germans, say THAT. There can be no compromise, only acknowledgement of our differences. --Uncle Ed 21:47, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Where is Silesia?

message: Can someone explain to me how Nico etc came to 700 years of German rule in SIlesia? Even if they count Bohemian rule of some of territories, then 1945-1327 = 618. German colonisation on wider scale started after 1260/70 or so. 
Last independent SIlesian duchy, very large, ceased to exist in 1368. Since 1327-1525 Silesia was part of Bohemia, formally part of HRE - but this was mere formality for example when it was ruled by Polish kings (e.g 1470? - 1525) Native kings (Jiri Podiebrad) etc. Moreover, while Germans became quickly majority in the cities (at least the elites, plebs was of mixed nationality fo long time) most of popluation was still Slavic in at least half of region well into XVI century (Oder is commonly used as border before majority German/majority Polish population) with Polish speaker s being still 25-35% of population before WWI. How so he get "Silesia is German for 700 years?"
But enough of ranting. See my introduction proposals above. szopen
::My understanding is that the last Piast Duke of Silesia (the Duke of Silesia-Brieg) died in the 17th century some time. john 09:06, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  German rule of Silesia 

message: I didn't came to 700 years of German rule. I said almost 700 years.
As you said, Silesia was German, under different states, from 1327 until 1945, in modern times it had been German for 618 years. Nico 06:13, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Silesia German for 618 years until 1945