Talk:List of dukes and kings of Croatia

message: User:Tom Radulovic wrote:
: 1092 Pacta Conventa is signed by a group of Croatian nobles who formed a Sabor, or parliament, and King Ladislaus I of Hungary. The pact maintains Croatia and Hungary as separate states under a single ruler, Ladislaus. Almos rules as Ladislaus' proxy.
: ...
: 1097 Battle of Gvozd Mountain (modern Petrova Gora). King Coloman of Hungary, supported by Pannonian Croats, defeats an army of Croatian and Dalmatian nobles allied to Peter Svachich. Coloman revives the Pacta Conventa, and is affirmed as King of Croatia, which is ruled on his behalf by a Ban (viceroy) and the Sabor. 
This is somewhat incorrect on several issues, at least according to what I was taught in school and what I read elsewhere.
The historians gave the name Pacta Conventa to the final treaty between the Croats and the Magyars which resulted in Koloman's coronation in Biograd na moru in 1102, not to initial Ladislav's incursions. Ever since the disappearance of Petar Krešimir IV in 1074, the statehood was in jeopardy as there was no heir to the royal dynasty. Zvonimir married Ladislav's sister Jelena (and submitted to the Holy See) exactly for the purpose of making sure that his reign would not be threatened from the outside, but after his death which happened some time between 1087 and 1089, that made king Ladislav one of the closer royalties to inherit the crown. However, he was rejected as a king by the novelty which instated the last of the Trpimirović, Krešimir's nephew Stjepan II, which only lived for two more years. Queen Jelena and her supporters again agitated for the acceptance of Ladislav, and this time there was no longer a backup solution so Ladislav's nephew Almoš started his rule.
However, due to the handling of the issue of the bishopric and the discontent with a foreign ruler, the Croatian novelty made Ladislav fight a war to secure his right to the throne, a war that he clearly never entirely won, as the lords elected a new king among themselves, Petar (hence the pseudo-surname Svačić, meaning everyone's), who ruled most of coastal Croatia for four years. Even Ladislav's successor Koloman, who ended Petar's rule in the battle of Gvozd, didn't succeed in maintaining actual control over Croatia, because he had to divert his armies to the east to fight the Rus' and the Kumans.
Coloman should be the one credited with annexing Croatia to Hungary because he was the one who realized that the right way to get the Croats to really concede the crown was a peaceful negotiation. According to a manuscript that described this process (it began with the words Qualiter et cum quo pacto dederunt se Chroates regi Hungariae, meaning "How and with what contract did the Croats surrender to the king of Hungary" and was interpreted as proof of the Pacta Conventa, but wasn't necessarily literally so), Koloman recovered from his year 1099 losses on the eastern front and in 1102 mounted an attack force near Drava. However, twelve Croatian tribes managed to organize a defence force despite the fact the country was in turmoil throughout the last decade. As Koloman found out that there was to be organized resistance, he decided to extend an offer to the leaders -- they would submit to his sovereignty but would be recognized as regional leaders by him and excluded from paying tribute. They answered his call, set up a meeting, and agreed on such a solution. Koloman was crowned in Biograd na moru as rex Croatiae et Dalmatiae and the Croatians obviously kept their promise that they would not rebel, for the next 425 years, more or less.
Also, the first sentence might give readers the false impression that the Sabor was formed at that date. The word sabor is generic, and it is uncertain when exactly the councils of Croatian leaders (later nobility) became parliamentary. It could have been as far back as 923/925/928 when Tomislav united the duchies and was crowned as a king, it could have been 1102, and it could have been as late as 1526/1527 when they were deciding on the fate of the Croatian provinces after the fall of Louis at Mohacs. --Shallot 21:35, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: And now, an "unpatriotic blow". Looks like "Pacta conventa" is a later forgery Croatian nobles made in order to prevent Hungarians from meddling into their affairs. This is almost commonly accepted in newer authoritative history books (for instance, monumental Raukar's" Hrvatsko srednjovjekovlje"). This is not historical nihilism or "deconstruction" (school of Ivo Goldstein and similar fellas), but a rather banal contention that Croats, in 1100s and 1200s simply didnt have any need for such a formal document, because balance of powers was such that nominal Hungarian overlordship wasnt such a big deal. In fact, Croatian nobles were frequently the most powerful figures in "Hungarian" kingdom, sometimes even more influential than Hungarian wannabe kings (Gorjanski episode). Anyway-"Pacta conventa" is interesting stuff, historically very important (especially in the 18th and 19th cent. legislative-national battles)-but, in all likelihood, a cunning forgery of our cunning forefathers.;^)Mir Harven 22:02, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, like I said, there is no actual written treaty named that way, that's just interpolation, albeit a very entrenched one. It's probably successful because it's so plausible. --Shallot 22:29, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: "Pacta Conventa"

message: I'm reluctant to point to the list of Hungarian rulers more prominently because of several things:
* that list doesn't have the same ordinal numbers: the Belas, the Stephens, the Gezas and the Andrews are shifted by -1 because Bela I, Stephen I, Geza I and Andrew I of Hungary didn't rule over Croatia. Possibly others.
* the Transylvanian princes are impertinent
* support for the Zapolyas probably wasn't as notable in Croatia
--Shallot 23:07, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monarchs of Hungary 

message: The dates for the reigns of the Celje counts vary between this page and the Counts of Celje page, especially Hermann I and Hermann II. Tom Radulovich 19:02, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Counts of Celje

message: Hi!
PANONIAN suggested that we should discuss a general convention here about the usage of names like Zrinski/Zrínyi, or Lackfi/Lackovic.
I suggest that we use names accoding to the origin of the family, even if the article is related to an other country's history.
So we should use Zrinski, Frankopan, Babonic etc instead of Zrínyi, Frangepán and Babonics while Lackfi, Garai, and Újlaki instead of Lackovic, Gorjanski and Ilocki.
Opinions? 84.2.210.17 07:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming convention 

message: I see no reason to list the Radich family history among the bans of Croatia. Someone can write an article about this family, but I will remove this content from here. --Koppany 17:51, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Radich

message: Missing people should be redlinked. If you just don't have a redlink there, then it can't link when the article is created. On a list (and generally) it is better to redlink than keep silent they are missing. Why are people so scared of redlinks?
I came here to find someone, but because he is not linked I dunno if he should be a redlink or perhaps does exist, but under a different title.
Best wishes Si Trew (talk) 09:58, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where are the redlinks? 

message: The list should be listing the Kings of Croatia, i.e. the people who actually were the monarchs, not their viceroys. Or at least, the actual monarchs of Croatia should be listed as well. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 08:28, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The list is wrong 

message: First of all NDH has little to nothing to do with this article and second-even if it did, the entire separate section wouldn't be necessary.
Someone has some communist complexes again?
EDIT: I merged the NDH section with the Modern times and shortened it a bit. Happy? Or I am a cannibal nazi and filthy holocaust denier now?
:The reason why the section was separate was to emphasize that the NDH has no legitimacy and is not in the line of succession. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 01:05, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Ridiculous

message: Here I made the list of all RULERS of Croatia (dukes in early period and later Kings). List of Bans will bi transferred to new article. 
The base for the list of kings after Trpimirović dynasty is the list of Kings of Hungary. Since that list is not 100% identical (e.g. Karlo Martel, or cases when the dates of reign in Hungary and Croatia differ) this was made a separate list. Also, names of all kings are presented in Croatian transcript, how were usually referred in historical documents and history books. I only left numbering of Kings of Hungary unchanged because we usually take the same numeration in history books (e.g. Bela IV should be Bela III in Croatian) - Ro0103 (talk) 11:49, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Both orders should be listed in the article, if the rulers were ever crowned using different ordinals. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 23:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagree. This is excellent work, I've been meaning to do something of the sort myself. This article should be renamed into List of Croatian monarchs (e.g. List of English monarchs, List of French monarchs etc.) and a list of bans should be added into the Ban of Croatia article (or perhaps a List of Croatian bans article). --DIREKTOR (TALK) 02:12, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait, that was already done :). Great. Fully agree with the current situation. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 02:14, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  So, what would be the reason to avoid listing the Croatian order if it really existed in practice? I fail to see any reason to avoid it. Obviously the more notable name comes first, but if it's a list of Croatian monarchs, then it has its own order that should be at least mentioned. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 14:14, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Misunderstanding, you're right Joy. Seems I do "disagree first, ask questions later" :) --DIREKTOR (TALK) 15:48, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would try to give my argument for this. As Croatian wiki members would know, in all school history books we learn that Golden Bull in which Zagreb is proclaimed free and royal city is issued by King Bela IV. This can be found in every book which deals with history of Zagreb, and in the memorial plaque in Upper Town in Zagreb. But, according to Croatian order, we are talking about Bela III. Same problem, different Golden Bull - Andrew II issued Golden Bull in 1222 which is mentioned in our history books, but in Croatian order, he should be ordered as Andrew I. The main problem would be ordering of Stephens, since Croatia had two (+ Stephen Držislav who is usually not counted since he took the name Stephen at his coronation, and the first Stephen of Arpad dynasty should be counted as Stephen III in Croatian ordinals and not II. Maybe, the solution would be that we use Croatian ordinals with the name in Croatian. Ro0103 (talk) 11:00, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  New list 

message: I'm not actually terribly opposed to that other title, but it came in the middle of a huge process of cleaning up links to bans. In a bit, the database will have reshuffled a lot of template-induced linkage, and I'll do another pass. After that, I won't revert the same move if done again. Though it stands to reason that it could pass through the RM procedure, because the matching List of rulers of Hungary and List of rulers of Bohemia could follow suit, or not. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 15:03, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  title (rulers, monarchs, ...) 

message: I can see that somebody changed portrait pictures of several kings of native line to their modern, romantic depictions. Since in whole of article we have "real", contemporary depictions of rulers, my opinion is that we shoul only use these kind of portraits (contemporary and not modern, romantic). For example, if we have the plaque from the baptistery of Split for which is believed to represent Zvonimir, than we should use that image, and not modern one. Ro0103 (talk) 10:46, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  pictures (portraits) 

message: Coat of Arms: The coat of arms shown is the one belonging to the Spanish Habsburgs, not related to Croatia. I believe shouldn't be the one in this article. (Panarobledo (talk) 22:15, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Panarobledo, you are right. They are the arms of Charles V, who never reigned in Hungary or Croatia. I've replaced them with Habsburgs arms from a later date in which the arms of Croatia can also be seen. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 23:02, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coat of arms (Spanish Habsburgs) 

message: The article currently says that Braslav ruled Pannonian Croatia from 880 to 887. But the Braslav of Pannonian Croatia article says that his reign ended in 900 or 901 when the Hungarians conquered his country. So which is correct? What happened in the last few years of the Principality's independence, was Braslav still the ruler up to the time the Magyars invaded or was there another ruler in that short time? I would tend to think that the 900/901 figure makes more sense. --Hibernian (talk) 00:23, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Date of Braslav's reign?

message: I adjusted some of the information in the NDH section and removed references to Aimone's son. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 18:43, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Sources should be verifiable. We can't verify them if we can't read what they say. He did at one time refuse but later rescinded that. The sources for the rights of "Zvonimir II" are in Croatian. What exactly does Hrvoje Matković say about them and on what page? Also there are sources for an abdication on July 31. Whatever he may have declared in October, a monarch can only abdicate once. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 20:02, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Your point about his refusal however is right. I changed the text to "He had at first refused to assume the kingship in opposition to the Italian annexation of Dalmatia". Gerard von Hebel (talk) 20:08, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  NDH 

message: Some croatian historians like Ivo Goldstein or some Croatian wikipedia articles list the correct number of the monarch according to Croatian succession (e.g. Bela III instead of Bela IV, because the Croats did not have a Bela I before being incorporated into Hungary). I want to hear your opinion on wether to change the name numbers in this article to fit this better. This is a kind of double edged sword since you sacrifice historical accuracy for convenience. Marko Brkljača (talk) 03:53, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of succession title of hungarian monarchs specifically