Talk:Oldham/Archive 1

message: I have reverted this page to remove the text from http://www.visitoldham.co.uk/heritage/famous.htm I will try to use this page as a source for expanding our own article.SimonMayer 11:31, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Visit Oldham

message: This was listed in the people section of the article
"* Many people of the Islamic Faith New Pakistan"
I personally do not believe this should be listed in this section despite its vague truth.  It is not a person and is likely to cause offence.  I'm not sure how it was listed here.  I have temporarily removed it so it doesn't cause trouble.  If anyone else has feelings on this please feel free to note them here, if it is required we can have a vote on the issue.  As an Oldhamer myself I feel I am in a strong position to advise against making such references especially considering the towns history of racism.  Thanks.
--SFO 20:24, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You can read that edition of the article here . It's in the 'People' section. I have to say I agree with SFO, it is totally out of place, and probably racially motivated. Yet I agree with you on the free speech matter in general, progress in the community can't be made without people being able to air their views; BUT, having said that, this is an encyclopedia and should give facts and information about Oldham - it's not the place for people to comment from their own opinion. There are many more useful and appropriate places for this. M A Mason 13:41, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Questionable reference:

message: "It is however regarded as one of the most dangerous neighbourhoods in the country."
As an Oldhamer. I have no idea where this totally idiotic statement comes from. I would be surprised to find anyone who knows more than 2 Nigerians in this town and as for "most dangerous" what poppycock. It's as bad as most urban towns. No better, no worse.
:Also as an Oldhamer I agree the Nigerian population is not "large" by any means but the comment about it being "one of the most dangerous" towns is entirely true I'm afraid. Yorkshire Street on a weekend evening recently polled as the second most dangerous street in the country.
All POV and as such has no place in an encyclopedic article. If anyone can find a credible reference for it being one of the most dangerous neighbourhoods then by all means put it back. M A Mason 16:06, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah it was in the article so I moved it here for discussion. I think we may as well just delete it though; theres no way of even toning it down. M A Mason 12:34, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: POV statements

message: I have repeatedly had to revert the population figure over the last few days - the population given at the moment links to the list, where the figure is taken from (list KS01, from the Office of National Statistics).  It is daft to change the figure and have it linking to a list which it no longer tallies with!
If you find another population figure that refers to some other area other than what is being used now, please add it in a separate sentence saying where it refers to and explicitly citing your source.   
Further reverts of the population figure that don't give sources could well be seen as wilfully obstructive. 
Also, please do not remove material (eg, removing Mike Ford and Barrie McDermott) just because it is red-linked; it helps encourage people to write new articles, and contributes useful information.
:Ah I see, I'd kept out of it, not being particularly knowledgeable about populations. I'll keep an eye it myself from now on. I'll add a message to the article telling people to read the discussion first. M A Mason 14:11, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The offical census population for Oldham is 103,544 and comes form the 2001 Census publications Key Statistics for urban areas in England and Wales Table KS01 ( released 17 June 2004). Where do you get the population of 157,545 from? CLICK HERE TO VERIFY MY FACTS BY DOWNLOADING THE SPREADSHEET LINK GIVEN BY THE ONS--Statsfan 22:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Population and recent edits

message: This article needs a bit of a clean up and some of the facts beefed out because it reads quite badly, like a list of facts. But alas I don't really frequent oldham that much so I wouldn't know.
Benjaminstewart05 18:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Scatty

message: I've totally overhalled/revamped the article as I outlined above. I believe it is a vast improvement including a beautiful photograph by Matthew Rees, and much more attention to Oldham's industrial past.
There are some gaps/stubs which need more attention yet. And it would be great to get some more photographs - particularly old ones, of the cotton mill metropolis it was during the 19th century say.
I hope it is to everyone's liking! (certainly better than the local rivals Rochdale article). Jhamez84 17:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The rewrite is fantastic, I must congratulate you on it :) M A Mason 20:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Revamp

message: The old wording said of the 2001 riots in Oldham:
:"the Oldham Riots were the worst racially-motivated riots in the United Kingdom for fifteen years prior, eclipsing the sectarian violence seen in Northern Ireland."
This statement was followed by a reference to the Ritchie report.
I simply do not believe that anyone thinks the riots "eclipsed" NI's sectarian troubles in the sense of rendering them insignificant by comparison! I think this sentence probably menat to put across the idea that the riots were the worst riots for fifteen years apart from the sectarian violence seen in Northern Ireland.
I've changed the sentence accordingly but thought I'd mention it here as this is the sort of section likely to be controversial....
--Casper Gutman 15:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Aha - I found the relevant section in the Ritchie report, and it does indeed state "eclipsing", but the paraphrasing in the sentence I quoted above is very misleading. The intention in the report was only to say that for once the NI troubles were eclipsed in the sense that the riots briefly had more prominence in the media. This needed to be clarified IMHO. --Casper Gutman 16:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Riots eclipsed sectarian conflict in NI? 

message: The article is looking good in it's current form but still behind that of Manchester and Shaw and Crompton. Some sections are still just stubs and require a collaborative effort to improve these parts. I've found this, this, this and this internet page, which together would undoubtedly provide facts of historical significance. I'll try to include some of the content, but would welcome other users to provide other such information also and help search through these external links for interesting points to include. Many thanks, Jhamez84 17:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I updated the genesis.ac.uk link above, as their address format has changed.   broken link - new link. Zarius 09:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current status 

message: I find it somewhat disheartening how, on a supposed 'free' medium as 'Wikipedia', history has been re-written once again. I'm sick of reading about how Oldham was once a 'boomtown'- yeah for the Aristocracy/Rothschilds- but NOT for the normal, working-class people who were born there!
People (including children) had to work as slaves in the Cotton Mills, for 12-16 hours a day; and they were treated like animals. We always read about black slavery, but what about white slavery? They were both as bad as each other. Revisionists like to pretend that the people of Oldham were once affluent, and had a good standard of living- it's at least implied anyway.
Have a look here then: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/IToldham.htm and http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/IRchild.htm . Even there they speak mainly of 'child labour'- not slavery- and gloss over how the adults suffered too. They had wretched lives. The mortality rate was shocking, and their standard of 'food' was appalling. Families were separated, the workers weren't permitted to talk whilst toiling, children were mercilessly beaten etc etc.
PLEASE people, research the TRUE past of Oldham- and learn what our ancestors had to go through. 
If we don't know our history, we are doomed to repeat it.
Respect those dear people who endured so much, for the sakes of the greedy, inhumane monsters (bloodlines) who exploited them. ALL slavery is wrong. So many people have suffered in Oldham, almost in vain it seems. It's shocking how I saw the mills in the late 1970s, yet was taught NOTHING about their dark, abhorrent history.
From an ex-Oldhamer. 
(I didn't know anything about the conditions that they had to endure, until about 1998 (via the Internet).)—Preceding unsigned comment added by TheRAISINMAN (talk • contribs) 15:04, 13 August 2007
:There was abuse in mills of course, but it wasn't limited to Oldham by any means. Abuse by certain cotton giants on a certain section of the community, during a certain section of time across mill towns of the whole of northern England doesn't in my veiw really belong in an article about Oldham as a whole (certain fort/castle/battle-site towns are sites to horrific torture and barbarity, but it's just not encyclopedic in a geography class article.
:On the term "boomtown", this is verifiable, and coined about Oldham in multiple scholarly and third-party publications. Assuming you have proper source material, information about child labour and workforce abuse may be more suitable for the Mill town or Textile manufacture during the Industrial Revolution articles.
:Please sign your comments too in future for the benefit of the editting community. Jza84 16:13, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There have been plenty of books on the subject for many years.  Conditons were bad but they did improve as various Factory Acts were brought in through the 19th Century.  Don't forget that things were worse in rural areas and people moved to the towns for work, often over long distances.  Many of these "bettered" themselves and the building society system was started so people could own their own houses.  Some of the mill owners were quite benevolent also and provided good housing etc for their workers.  --jmb 18:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, the word slavery implies they were denied their freedom and concidered property which is blatantly not true. There were just no rules regarding workers age, safety, or comfort like we have today. If you didn't like the conditions you had to work in you weren't beaten or locked up, you were just sacked. This unfortunately also meant you were homeless, so common sense dictated you just had to put up with it. ~~ Peteb16 19:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There were rules, might not seem much by our standards but they did gradually improve.  The Health and Morals of Apprentices Act came in 1802 forbidding employment of children under nine as apprentices and a maximum 12 hour day for children.  In 1825 the Cotton Mills Regulation Act imposes a 12 hour day for workers under 16.  The Factory Act 1833 forbid labour for children  under nine and set a 9 hour day for those under 13.  Might not sound much but all were achievements for the time and there were further ones after then.  --jmb 20:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite. Furthermore, looking at books like "Oldham and its People", and "The Changing Face of Crompton", the Oldham area with it's busy inter-town tramways, impressive town hall, newly built parish church, thousands upon thousands of brand new houses, its quaint butchers and suited children, looks more prosperous at the turn of the last century than it does now. In terms of economics, this was a true boomtown, as suggested by a great many sources. Of course there was poverty, abuse, unfit housing and unsavoury businessmen, but that's still true of 21st century Oldham let's not forget. I do commend RAISINMAN for being bold however as a newcomer, and although I think we have a relatively balanced article here, I would welcome improvements and expansion to the article anyway. Jza84 20:50, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The REAL history of Oldham: Cotton Mills etc