Talk:Gordon B. Hinckley/Archive 1

message: Is there a reason why this article isn't under Wikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement? I would have put it in, but its so obvious so I don't know if there's a reason or whatever...-Mbatman 72 19:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No reason whatsoever, so I have added it now. __meco 10:58, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: wikiproject

message: Although it is convention not to remove vandalism on talk pages - removing personal attacks is common. Trödel|talk 22:49, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing talk pages 

message: I have a problem with the introduction and conclusion of the 'Controversial Statements' section.  The introduction says that President Hinckley contradicted fundamental doctrine.  The conclusion says that there was a discrepency, or, in other words, President Hinckley and / or the Church has lied in this matter. 
:1. The original quote was taken out of context.  The statement "Just another related question that comes up is the statements in the King Follett discourse by the Prophet." was left out of the original publication.  Within this context, President Hinckley's response "I don't know that we teach it", etc., takes on a different meaning.  
:2. Although portions of the King Follet sermon have been quoted by GA's in General Conference talks, the entire discourse is not considered cannon. 
:3. There are two parts of the couplet quoted by President Hinckley, one refers to the origin of God, the other refers to the potential of man. When President Hinckley said "I don't know that we teach it... I don't know a lot about it...", I think he was referring to the part on the origin of God.  Joseph Smith, Jr. made these statements and then was martyred before he had a chance to fully explain the doctrine.
:4. Although many members of the Church have beliefs concerning the origin of God that are derived from the King Follet discourse, we do not teach them as official doctrine.  This is certainly not a "...fundamental doctrinal position of the LDS Church...".
:5. The Church has long taught and continues to teach that man has the potential to become like God.  This is scriptural, it's even in the Bible.  Certainly President Hinckley did not intend to contradict this doctrine.
Therefore, all the statements that President Hinckley and The Church made in regards to this matter are completely consistent with each other and with official church doctrine, and so the statements at the begining and end of this section should be changed. 74s181 12:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No contradiction 

message: I removed this Hoffman stuff because I think it isn't that relevant but wanted to get feedback here. If something does go in, it should be noted that the third party who attempted to purchase them was purchasing with the intent to investigate the authenticity - and it was a result of that investigation that Hoffman started trying to cover stuff up. --Trödel 17:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Hoffman stuff 

message: Why isn't there any Chritism of this man in this articleTjb891 04:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism 

message: Should we specify in the article that the reason it was unusual for him to be called on a mission was the deemphasis on missionary activity during the Depression?  As the article stands now, it sounds like the unusual thing was being called to England.  JordeeBec 18:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: sure, go ahead WP:BOLD jj 01:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification needed? 

message: Scanning the article, It's unclear why he is a significant leader, and therefore on the template to the right. Is it just because he is the current leader (WP:Recentism), or has he done something significant beyond most of his predecessors? -- Kendrick7 23:27, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone who millions of people  believe talks to God is significant.  He has also directed the church for the past 11 years, during unparalelled temple growth.jj 04:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Signifigant leader

message: "Additionally, at times when President Hinckley's predecessors were in poor health, Hinckley performed many of the duties of the Church's presidency as established by precedent and revelation."
What does "established by precedent and revelation" even mean, and which duties did he perform? Is there a citation we can get for this? --Lethargy 18:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Established by precedent and revelation" has reference to the procedures that occur in the event of the President of the Church being physically or otherwise unable to perform his duties as President. During the time so noted, President Hinckley had the unenviable task of trying to move the Church along without getting ahead of his President. Many of the smaller decisions he could make on his own, but matters of Church policy and doctrine and revelation had to be approved and ratified by the President of the Church before President Hinckley could move forward. He could only do so after it was clear that the President of the Church not only understood the matters under consideration, but agreed with the proposed course of action. And President Hinckley could do that because he was the senior official at that time. Let me see if I could make this clearer. Take President Hinckley now. If for any reason he was unable to discharge his responsibilities, those responsibilities that could be taken over would be attended to by Presidents Monson and Faust, and in the event of either or both of them being unable to discharge their responsibilities, in the absence of a fully-functioning First Presidency, the burden would then fall to the Quorum of the Twelve. In the instance under question, President Hinckley, the only vital member of the First Presidency, was assisted by President Ezra Taft Benson, who was President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. And while he was Hinckley's senior in the Apostleship by many years, no one supported or sustained President Hinckley more vocally at this time than President Benson. President Hinckley's biography tells us that when he'd send matters to the Quorum of the Twelve, President Benson would say, "Brethren, we must be about this NOW!" So, I hope that helps you understand more about the way that works. If not, maybe someone else can explain it better. Signed, Jgstokes 23:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That explains what the "many of the duties of the Church's presidency" were, but where can I find the "precedent and revelation" spoken of? On a side note, his biography which you mentioned would be an excellent book to cite throughout the article, but I don't see it in the references section. Were you referring to Go Forward With Faith: The Biography of Gordon B. Hinckley by Sheri Dew? --Lethargy 21:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I was referring to the biography Dew wrote about him. As far as the "precedent and revelation" matter goes, there is no reference for precedent; however: Joseph Smith's 7 volume History of the Church explained in volume 7 how Smith's successor was chosen after the martyrdom. That has been the precedent, as is explained in the wiki article about Presidents of the LDS Church. After further consideration, I can tell you where you can find a reference for precedent. Joseph Smith once proclaimed to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, "Where I am not, there is no First Presidency over the Twelve." In other denominations derived from the LDS Church, such as the Community of Christ, after the death or resignation of the President, the Counselors in the First Presidency can run things until a new president is chosen. As evidenced from the Joseph Smith quote above (which I don't have a reference for but know for sure he said) we learn that there is no First Presidency over the Twelve where the President of the Church is not. As far as scripturally, I did find a reference. Let me refer you to section 107 of the Doctrine and Covenants, which makes reference to the role of the presiding officers and how their authority compares and differs. In verse 24, we learn that the Quorum of the Twelve is equal in authority to the Quorum of the First Presidency, but (and this is not mentioned, but implied) only when the Prophet is dead or incapable of carrying out his responsibilities, or the First Presidency is dissolved at the death of the Prophet. And this is true because there must, of necessity, be a head, as we learn elsewhere in the revelations. Hope this helps clarify a bit more. If not, I'll try again. Signed, Jgstokes 23:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "established by precedent and revelation." 

message: Dear Friends,
I have made two corrections to this article to reflect a more accurate calculation. The first was in President Hinckley's record as oldest living prophet. He actually marked that milestone on November 2, because there was no leap year in 1900, which would affect that calculation by throwing President McKay's age off by a day. See the following two links for the explanation of that. http://www.desnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,650203647,00.html http://www.ksl.com/?sid=612792&nid=148.
The second correction is related to the date listed as the date President Hinckley will surpass the record for oldest living apostle. For some reason, the date listed for him to break that record was May 15, 2008. That's off by a week. Using a calculator specifically designed to configure dates through addition and subtraction, I discovered that the actual date is May 22, 2008. I have changed the article to reflect the change. And yes, I did use that same calculator to find out Elder Haight's exact age when he died before I calculated when President Hinckley would be that exact same age. And that's the way it came out. I have no reason to doubt the calculator. I've tried it on other dates, and it works 100%. Accordingly, I've altered the article to reflect the actual date.
Thanks, and keep up the good work. Jgstokes 16:52, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume you meant May 22, 2008? That's how it's appearing in the article. -SESmith 22:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did. I have fixed it. Sorry. --Jgstokes 22:39, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  President Hinckley's records as oldest living prophet and apostle 

message: The user who is putting up advertisement tags is defacing other Mormonism-related articles.  I'm reverting the tagging until otherwise asked.  --Gpohara 07:39, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What specific wording in the article makes it read like an advertisement?  I can't see any evidence of an attempt to sell or market anything. alanyst /talk/ 16:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Advertisement tag 

message: One minor question about the "calling verses setting apart" matter. President Hinckley was set apart as a Counselor in the First Presidency on July 23, 1981. He was called to be a Counselor in the First Presidency eight days earlier. For proof of this fact, see his biography. Why is it that the incorrect term is used in recording this event? Jgstokes 22:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well don't you get called to a local position by your local leader and later that leader sets you apart?jj 14:35, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is correct, but my question was why is it recorded on this biography about President Hinckley that he was called to that position on July 23, when in actual fact he was set apart in that calling on that date, but he was called eight days earlier? Jgstokes 22:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe whoever wrote it didn't know about the distinction or didn't care. Usually it's pointless for us all to speculate why an editor did something they did. If you'd like to update it, there is nothing stopping you. -SESmith 23:15, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.jj 02:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have done so. Thanks. Jgstokes 16:52, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Called verses set apart 

message: The article lists Standing for Something as one of his publications. There is an entry for that book, but very little info it. If anyone is familiar with the book, it might be worthwhile to give that page some attention. Isaac Crumm 23:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Publications