Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 10

message: Clearly homeopathy, as is stated in places on this page, exists, and therefore merits an article, although avoiding opinions is of course mandatory, and even suggesting that it is effective is borderline POV. But what does not seem to be receiving adequate attention is the simple fact that there are now a large number of scientifically conducted, statistically significant double-blind trials on record which show that the effect of homeopathic treatments equates to the effect of placebo; there are no properly conducted trials that show statistically demonstable evidence to the contrary. Placebos work in some conditions in some people. So does homeopathy, to the same extent; no more, no less. I see no value in this endless debate.--Anthony.bradbury 21:01, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that being equal to placebo doesn't make it valid for use as medicine. If it was there would be a placebopathy section of the hospital because after all, it's just as good as homeopathy. That homeopathy has statistically similar results to placebopathy is far from a ringing endorsment of homeopathy; it's like telling a sick person that they should drink some special water because it's just as good as a sugar pill. So the endless debate continues...   Modusoperandi 15:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes Modusoperandi.  Placebo is non-specific factors in psychology.  It is no effect.  I like the placebopathy idea.  It is just the quackery though.  I know some have tried to make it a subject for example in hypnotherapy.  But it is against the scientific methods. It is not able to be trusted or ethical in society.  Hylas Chung 08:49, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nor would it be ethical to combine homeopathy, phrenology, astrology, faith healing, prayer and placebopathy into a one-stop shopping destination for people who want to feel the awesome effects of the no better statistically than placebo, if that... brand of therapy. I, if I were to start such an unethical store, would call it a Quackeria.    Modusoperandi 23:13, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

text: ...it would be fun to try...sadly I'm less of an expert and more the devil's advocate   Modusoperandi 15:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trials 

message: I have gone through the intelligent comments, views and thoughts of the user of the Wikipedia. I appreciate that the reader of this site is very intelligent and they want to know everything in the light of Scientific Phenomenon. The fact is about the Homoeopathic Science is that it is a "Art of Healing", as it is stated by the Father of Homoeopathy, Dr. Samuel Hahnemann. The scientific Phenomenon of Homoeopathy is written para wise by Dr Hahnemann in his book ORGANON OF MEDICINE, which is a basic book to understand the philosophy and the science of Homoeopathy. The book is having the answer of the all controversies aroused by the intelligent readers. With this the reader should also study the CHRONIC DISEASES written by Dr Hahnemann. Another contribution of Dr Hahnemann is MATERIA MEDICA PURA in which the reader will find the prooving of the medicine with its technology.
If any reader will study these three books, I am sure the answer of any controversy, if he have in his mind, certainly will go away. 
Regarding the scientific evaluation of the disease conditions in view of Modern Medical Science, Homoeopathy have progressed much more. INDIA is the only country, where Homoeopathy have progressed much more after Independence. Many anti-glyceamic medicines have been scientifically prooved but due to lack of information the achievements have not been welcommed by the public in general.DBB 10.25 IST, 03/06/06
Modus said: "double blind testing and control groups are critical to the neutral exploration of the potential of any cure." and I asked, "how would YOU test truly homeopathic treatment against placebo?" I am still waiting for an intelligent answer. Peter morrell 11:06, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, that's way better than my tongue-within-cheek test regimen! Of course I'd forgotten to point out that since homeo is making the extraordinary claim (that being that it isn't bunk) it's up to the pro for homeopath to prove its validity; otherwise it'd be like the ID's trying to get the Evo's to prove that the designer (or, cough, cough, Yahweh) didn't do it, which is tough as he (or "He") never returns phone calls.    Modusoperandi 02:06, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  CONTROVERSY OF HOEMOEOPATHIC SCIENCE WILL END, IF YOU GO TO STUDY............ 

message: Hahnemann's Quinine experiment did not result in having the symptoms of malaria, but of Quinine poisoning. They are quite different from malaria, though some symptoms are the same. But, most infectious diseases and poisonings have the same symptoms: fever, feeling really crappy, and so forth. 
Have a look: http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/forum.asp?articlekey=24716 and check out the symptoms of malaria.
look up the symptoms of quinine poisoning here:
http://www.antiquusmorbus.com/English/Poison.htm
See what I mean? Not much similar.
Dietwald 12:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hahnemann never did an experiment with "quinine" which never even existed then, it was a proving of Cinchona. Peter morrell 15:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He was allergic to it - (Hahnemann's Allergy to Quinine) - so his experiments were based on a misunderstanding. -- Fyslee 20:06, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Be warned Peter that you can waste alot of time debating the rights and wrongs of particular positions. It's easier to stick to the verifiable sources and quote these. If there are empirical homeopathic studies that support the effectiveness of particular remedies then link them to the article. As far as I'm aware the double blind studies are not particularly favourable to homeopathy so a NPOV balance needs to be found. I admit to being a skeptic myself but I have a lot of friends who swear by it so there should be enough info either way to produce a balanced article. Some editors will never be happy unless the article totally reflects the truth as they see it but even though I have doubts myself and am "blinkered" by a scientific outlook too :) the interests of producing an informative and balanced article are paramount.  Sophia 19:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh, really. What model does homeopathy propose that explains over a hundred years of observation of chemical, physical, and biological systems better than molecular theory? T.J.C. 22:11, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

text: True...I'm still smarting at the mentions of so-called scientists.  Modusoperandi 02:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  BECAUSE THEN YOU'LL SEE IT'S BUNK 

message: I would like to submit my humble request to all the participents of this debate, to end the controversy in the way of PRACTICAL APPROACH. We should form a Group / Association /Company in which the most sofisticated scientist with the ultramodern devices users should be included, some Top homoeopaths, some top Modern Western Medical Practitioners, some physiologist, some biophysiologist, some physicist and other essential persons related on demand inclusion under an unprejudised observers group. Then Test the efficiency of the Homoeopathic Medical system. Merely OPPOSE for OPPOSITIONIS VERY EASY, because of prejudiceness. If any person is not willing to accept the phenomenon, it is upto them, how he takes it ? No body can forcibly implement his views on others. We are living in Democratic conuntry and we have right to express our views. It is upto the mental capacity and thinking ability of a person, how he conceive a phenomenon ? If you think in destructive way,you will always be in personality disorders.
In my opinion, no body have gone through the serious writtings of Hahnemann.Not a single person, who is participating in this debate. Any single person who is arising the controversy, if has gone to the pages of Hahnemann writtings, he wiil certainly get the answer of his curiosities, whatever he have in his mind.  Those who are talking about that they have understand all about the Homoeopathy, they are living in the fools paradise and apeasing themselves with their own ignorence. These persons are befooling the entire people including themselves. However I will like PETER MORRELL  to come forward and form an Association for testing of the efficiency of Homoeopathy in his own way, because in my opinion he is more intelligent person who have a best analytical mind than we are.
The compliments are very nice, but I don't have the time or cash to set up an institute. These days I am just an historian of the subject, and the writings of Hahnemann are indeed a revelation to those with an open mind. If you really want to test homeopathy for yourself then go to the best place in the world where you can see it in action every single day: India . There you can see a line of 100 patients being treated by doctors in tiny villages. It is the most homeopathic country on the planet. Or alternatively you can buy remedies yourself and a materia medica and start using them. It is safe and harmless and that is how many of the great homeopaths first learned how to prescribe. I was lucky because I learned it from a farmer who employed one of the greatest homeopathic vets of all time: George McLeod, and from their advice I was amazed to see it working before my own eyes, not just on people, but on pets, horses, babies and young children, sometimes with astonishing speed. Doubts are soon dispelled when you see it in action and it becomes something you fall back almost every day when you have young children. These RCTs on homeopathy are forsure still missing something but I don't claim to know what it is. Peter morrell 19:49, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, India's stellar infant mortality rate, life expectancy, and prevalence of infectious disease is a true testament to the success of homeopathy and is highly indicative of its efficacy. T.J.C. 22:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I really must thank you. This is quite possibly the funniest, most entertaining thing I've ever read. Every single part of it is wonderful. You are a treasure. Don't ever change! T.J.C. 06:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: REQUEST to PETER MORRELL to form an International Team of Experts

message: Thanks for the reply. If you agree, I can arrange the all facility, what ever you want and the experts of all fields according to your need. There is many institutions and medical colleges in India where according to your wish, the trial can be arranged.National Institute of Homoeopathy,KOLAKATTA, INDIA is fully equipped with the ultramodern facilities for the pathological and scanning facilities and All India Institute of Medical Sciences, Ansari Nagar, NEW DELHI,INDIA have one Homoeopathic wing, where Homoeopathic research is often conducted. A List of Medical colleges can be provided to you, where you wish to conduct your research work. But First you have to submit a project report, what you like to reasearch and on what subjects before the concerned persons. You will be finacially helped by the Government as well as private organisations and from the Homoeopathic fraternity. Are you agree to this proposal ? Medical Organisations will help you according to your need. I am related to Department of AYUSH [Ayurved,Yoga and Naturecure,Unani, Siddha,Homoeopathy], Ministry of Health and Family Welfare, Government of India.
::Yes, Peter. Your unwavering devotion to homeopathy, combined with the depth of knowledge of scientific reasoning you have demonstrated here, makes you the perfect person to conduct a study of its efficacy for the National Institute of Homeopathy. T.J.C. 06:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  PETER MORRELL COME TO INDIA

message: Yes, it's the last thing we need edit wars over, but I see no good reason to remove the BBC link. It's interesting, balanced, and accessible.
I am also concerned about the e-book link included in the revert:  It appears to be a site offering an e-book for sale, not for free reference. Comments, please. T.J.C. 06:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Links: Reverted Danaullman

message: Peter, your edits on the potentising machines are useful. That's what makes this article good. Informative, but not promotional. Thank you. Dietwald 09:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just stay clear of any language that seems to 'endorse' the practice. :) Dietwald 08:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: At the risk of getting back into the discussion: how do you know homeopathic substances have therapeutic power? But, that's besides the point. Mainstream scientists say it's bunk. Homeopaths say it's not. Fine, let's include both points of view and let readers make up their minds. By the way: molecules do not exist? Do you question the existence of atoms? Does this mean you do not believe in matter? Dietwald 09:20, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I generally stop debating when people start implicitely comparing themselves to the allegedly prosecuted geniuses of history. Not sure who said it, but it goes something like this: for every correct idea that has been wrongfully dismissed at first, there are hundreds of wrong ideas that have been correctly dismissed right away. Strange to see you refer to the authority of 'science' when you seem to be rather dismissive of it earlier on. Science is not whatever we want it to be. Science follows the rules (imperfect as they may be) of the scientific method. It's about results, verifiable results, and better explanations. Occam's razor, falsifiability, the whole shebang. Everything else is magical thinking, mostly based on post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacies and selective memories Dietwald 10:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Theories, young skywalker, are what enables us to understand the world. Funny, by the way, that you dismiss even the utility of theories in your defense of homeopathy. You may want to check out what the word theory actually means. And, yes, scientists cannot look at the world without the help of theories. Without theories, the world is just one big garble of unconnected phenomena. Without theories, science becomes stamp collection. Without theories, there is no knowledge. In fact, theories are arguably the highest form of human knowledge, because they provide explanations for mane disparate phenomena. They integrate observations into a sensible whole. Since you do not even accept the utility of theories, you seem to have a rather uncommon way of looking at the world. For those of us who live on planet earth, there is a good link I suggest to be included into this article: http://www.homeowatch.org/ . Dietwald 11:10, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The link is already included, and a good one it is too. Whilst I enjoy a good argument, Wikipedia isn't a discussion forum. So let's draw a line here whilst it's still good-natured, eh? Jefffire 11:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, seems to have passed good-natured awhile ago. It's weird; I lose the interweb for a week and the, erm, discussion turns nasty. Sigh. Can't docs and quacks just get along?  Modusoperandi 14:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Allright, Allright, I'll take a time-out. The article is obviously in good hands for the moment. I will turn my ire at someone else ;) Dietwald 08:54, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Potentising Machines

message: Just like to propose that the line "growing in popularity in the United States faster than any other method of alternative healing"[2] be taken out of the intro as it seems slightly redundant when the preceding line is about it's growth, because it's rather US centered and because it makes the whole sentence look a little ugly. It would fit perfectly happily in a later section I think. Comments? Jefffire 11:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I'm more annoyed that the broke and the easily duped have no choice but to go to quackery to get cured. The easily duped will, sadly, always be duped by quacks, but the broke shouldn't get screwed simply because they can't afford to buy in to their medical system. Pills and doctors, are effective but expensive, and quacks can easily undercut the competition because faith (faith in water, in this case) is cheap. Sigh...    Modusoperandi 14:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lets not get side tracked by personal attacks and irrelevnt discussion. The phrase is immediately preceded by "growing in popularity", so an additional sentence about growth in the US relative to other CAM's is redundant. More importantly it looks ungainly and inelegant. Jefffire 15:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So...change it? This is wikipedia, if you can make it better, edit it. The worst that'll happen is that it will be reverted.    Modusoperandi 16:04, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: If it was cheap i could understand, but the mark up on sugar pills is huge. There is a lot of money to be made. i agree that the redundancy is crazy in the introduction. Why does "it is incrase in popularity" have to be quoted three times? It would be a lot better to write it once and then cite the three different sources (if these three are actually needed). Alternatively just use one quote from the most reputable source. David D. (Talk) 16:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we keep this a strictly cosmetic discussion? There is a lot to say on the topic of homeopathy so things will get quickly bogged down if we don't. Jefffire 16:16, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cosmetic Suggestion 

message: Here is some hard data...it would be helpful if somebody can advise about how best it can be inserted into the article at the right point...
Homeopaths in the UK.
Data showing the growth of UK homeopathic practitioners:
1. RSHom means Registered member of the UK Society of Homeopaths
                      female
Year      RSHoms      RSHoms 
1979         15 
1980         28 
1981         41 
1982         45 
1983         50 
1984         54 
1985         62 
1986         65 
1987         67 
1988         82                40 (48.8%)
1989        132                81 (61.4%)
1990        165                99 (60%)
1991        180               112 (62.2%)
1992        210               137 (65.2%)
1993        260               182 (70%)
1994        360               264 (73.3%)
1995        427               310 (72.6%)
1996        465               357 (76.8%)
1997        493               381 (77.3%)
1998        542               418 (77.1%)
1999        708              n/a
Sources: Soc Hom Registers 1979-98; Society of homeopaths Annual Reports 1989-93; Society of Homeopaths Newsletter 25 p.5; Society of Homeopaths Newsletter 24 p.5; Society of Homeopaths Newsletter 21 p.5
1. The Faculty of Homeopathy [medically qualified pracitioners of homeopathy]
year     total    No females    percentage
1939     219       28            12.8%
1969     125       41            32.8%
1972     244       43            17.6%
1974     259       37            14.7%
1985     487      106            21.8%
1988     586      154            26.3%
1998    1600      576            36% 
Source: Faculty Lists 1939-98
Not only does this data show a steady increase in these practitioners, but also an increasing female domination of the profession. I would be happy for someone else to place this into the article in the appropriate place. Comments please? Peter morrell 15:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New data 

message: Well, the House of Lords Report here  is probably the most reliable source of data about the increasing use of CAM in the UK. It does NOT say homeopathy is increasing by 40% or that 40% of GPs refer patients to homeopaths, but it does contain some data based on rather limited surveys here and in the US. Worth looking at.
Regarding RCTs, then I would also suggest people read this  very interesting report from Canada about the Lancet study. It contains some of the most compelling reasons I have read about why RCTs are a pretty hopeless method for testing homeopathy. However, it seems many folks are working on this and it is to be hoped that RCTs can eventually be adapted or fine-tuned to investigate what they term "complex interventions" like homeopathy more fully and more statistically signicant. Peter morrell 10:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The house of lords report is a useful source for UK popularity data. However the responces to the lancet trial and randomised controlled trials in general aren't for reasons of notability and reliability. Jefffire 10:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: RCT's are highly respected and well known and so is the lancet trial. The respondants aren't even close in terms of reliability, respectibility and notability. WP:NPOV#pseudoscience come into play here. Jefffire 10:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  House of Lords Report and more 

message: The only marginally acceptable one is the one from the 'acclaimed' homeopath, which was already in there before Peter's edit. Even still - it's not appropriate by WP:RS since it is effectively self-published on his website. 
I know people will scream if I remove them without discussion - so seriously - isn't there a published, peer-reviewed letter refutation by now? In _any_ journal? Anybody can write crap on their website and call it legitimate. T.J.C. 06:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not about only presenting one view. This is about presenting reputable sources. My statements are representative of Wikipedia policy WP:RS. It clearly indicates that self-published material is troublesome, and rightly so. I could host my own unpublished letter on my own website - this does not make it authoritative. Homeopathy has at least one peer-reviewed journal devoted to it. Submissions from that would be acceptable, for example. T.J.C. 08:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Understood, thanks for the clarification. Please edit if you feel it requires it. Also, once the graph is properly labelled it should be a good addition to the article. T.J.C. 08:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

text: it might be helpful to readers and more transparent to say what these "more appropriate responses" actually involve. What major points do they make that Vithoulkas & Co don't? Is there more substance to their comments or it just more authoritative? if so, how and why? thanks Peter morrell 07:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  They're not self-published, they don't violate WP:RS, they're peer-reviewed scientific publications that refute a peer-reviewed scientific publication. T.J.C. 07:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: OK, so YOU regard them as more respectable...so much for the packaging, what about the contents? I repeat the question: what of substance do they say? its a fair point cuz if they say nowt new then who cares where they publish their views? In fact, for example, I think most homeopaths would be more interested in the views of Vithoulkas, on almost any issue, than the words of Peter Fisher. Have you actually read these articles? Peter morrell 07:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The articles have undergone a similar review process as to their logical and factual consistency as the Lancet article in order to be published, as such, they are more reputable. Self-published website material has not been reviewed for factual or logical consistency. See WP:RS. What you or I "feel" about Vithoulkas is completely irrelevant. Try reading some Wikipedia policies - they exist for a reason. T.J.C. 07:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: And also, what exactly is with the assumption that only homeopaths are going to be the ones reading the article? Furthermore, that's another 'appeal to popularity' fallacy. You may remember that from our India discussion. Just because homeopaths would rather hear what Vithoulkas has to say doesn't make him more credible - it makes it more likely that he only says what homeopaths want to hear. T.J.C. 08:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: thanks, OK points taken. My interview with GV was also published in a peer reviewed homeopathic jnl: "The American Journal of Homeopathic Medicine (AJHM) is a peer-reviewed scientific journal."  Peter morrell 08:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RV: Lancet refutations 

message: :I have found the graph on a previous edit, not sure how it got lost...any ideas how it can be placed back and the caption added? Peter morrell 08:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding the lost graph 

message: Hey guys, I know you've been working hard on this article and I had no purpose here but to make your intro a little more readable by the inquiring reader.  Feel free to change it back, but IMO it says everything it said before, only cleaner.  Cheers:) --Dematt 19:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction cleanup 

message: I feel that the way this article is phrased has rather a pro-homeopathy POV.  In general, it seems to imply that homeopathy basically works, but merits further investigation.  As this is not really the case, I suggest that the article be altered, for example by putting the scientific testing section before the popularity section, and phrasing the criticisms in that section more strongly.  Is that acceptable? --David.Mestel 17:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting.  I was just looking at it from another POV and noticing how it didn't say anything about whether it works or not.  Most of the article is very technical and doesn't say much about efficacy, which I presume is what it should be.  It is obviously a very delicate balance. --Dematt 12:57, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

text: This is complicated because homeopathy certainly does work, but in my opinion, these clinical outcomes are only the result of the placebo effect. We know placebos work, so we should not pretend they don't. The article does an excellent job of presenting the history and current form and usage of homeopathy. I think you probably see it as POV since it contains arguments on both sides. If you read it with the attitude that this is a swindle selling "magical water" then the parts with an anti-homeopathy POV are invisible and seen as common sense. On the other hand, if you read it as an active and satisfied user of "homeopathic remedies" then the pro-homeopathy POV is invisible and seen as common sense.--TimVickers 15:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To say that "homeopathy certainly does work" because of the placebo effect is to use a different standard for effectiveness than is actually used in medical research. In order to be considered an effective medical treatment, a treatment has to be more effective than placebo ... not merely as effective as placebo. --FOo 16:26, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree that homeopathy does not work as a way of preparing medicines, however as a method of treatment it is an effective way of giving people safe placebos. It is unarguable that giving patients homeopathic remidies can produce improvements in their condition but the people who contribute to this page differ as to the probable mechanism. This is almost a sematic point, but seeing homeopathy as a safe form of placebo therapy lets you take a more relaxed view of the issue.--TimVickers 16:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I still don't understand.  You say that "homeopathy certainly does work," even if it is only placebo.  Would you make the same statement about other placebo remedies such as prayer, laying on of hands, trancendental meditation, Reiki, use of an E-meter to audit for body thetans, shamanism, witchcraft, exorcism, the hundreds of different untested herbal remedies on the shelves at your drug store, magnetic bracelets, blood letting, megadoses of Vitamin C, etc.?  Would you state about each of these that it "certainly does work" in the same sense that "homeopathy certainly does work"?  If yes, then you have a rather unconventional understanding of the meaning of the phrase "certainly does work."  If no, then what is the distinction you're trying to draw between homeopathy and these other placebos?  Capedia 03:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The difference between homeopathy and these other alternative therapies is that homeopathic remedies are completely and reliably harmless. Untested herbs, huge doses of vitamins or blood-letting are all potentially harmful. If people are going to use these non-scientific remedies then I would prefer them to choose one that won't cause any damage. How could a few drops of water or a sugar pill cause any harm? These preparations certainly contain no active ingredients, so they are the perfect placebos.--TimVickers 04:41, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I also Agree, but as editors for encyclopedic value, it is not ours to determine the validity of any claim, or for that matter, any science.  We should not be concerned whether the results of our conscientious good editing sounds any more or less POV either way.  Research speaks for itself, and abstract theories either stand or fall on their own; though their respective values will be interpreted differently depending on the reader's POV.  We can not allow ourselves to present facts in such a way that leads a reader to "our" conclusion.   That will only make the intelligent and conscious reader discount the total wikipedia process as biased.  They want us to provide them with the all sides the best we can so they can decide from there.  It has nothing to do with the volume of material.  Most times, one sentence is all that it takes to make a good antagonistic POV statement.  If we do our job, we just cover all the POV's as thoroughly and succinctly as possible.--Dematt 17:00, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree completely. As a good editor I will strive to put these two opposing viewpoins forward as clearly as possible, despite my personal thoughts on the matter.--TimVickers 17:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: It is an excellent thing to have references in an article, but many of the references made on this page are to websites of unverifiable quality. This is fine for referring to sets of people having particular opinions, since a website is just an expression of opinion. However, quoting a website to verify a fact can be perilous, as the holocaust denial controversy shows. Can people who have referenced websites make an effort to find the same material on other, more official websites such as the sites of the various established homeopathic organisations?--TimVickers 20:00, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: I have extensively altered the section on the Lancet study for several reasons. 1) the description of the study was inaccurate, 2) the PEK dissent is tangential, not obviously related to this study at all, and wholly irrelevant to the peer review by Lancet. 3) The statement on methodological limitations was disingenuous, it was clearly made about the studies on acupuncture and herbal medicine, and this was a reservation about the weakness of apparent evidence for effectiveness. 4) The statement about 8 studies is simply a misunderstanding of the nature of the study. Thus this section (on the Lancet article) appears to have been utterly subverted purely for the purpose of undermining this to promote a POV. In fact, in the original insert of the Lancet studies, criticisms of the study by homeopaths were referenced, and if I have the energy I'll restore those. However, a meta-analysis in Lancet is about as notable and powerful a V RS source as you can get; they don't come better than this, and there has been no peer-reviewed refutation in a major journal that I know. On WP we describe and characterise evidence and opinions, we do not engage ourselves in disputes. Whether anyone likes thiis evidence or not, its notability means that we have some obligation to describe this properly and fairly. This study was extensively discussed on these pages earlier, in the last Talk archive, the description I have now inserted was one accepted on those pages by Davidnortmann as a fair description. I have no objection to dissent being referenced, but the study should not be misrepresented. Gleng 16:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: the Lancet 'thing' has been widely condemned from all quarters of the CAM and homeopathy professions as flawed and constructed by skeptic funded people. If that is so then it is fundamentally biased. I have no idea how true that is. However, why not now add the Bristol study which I have floated before...? thanks Peter morrell 17:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

text: and then guys like you wonder why there are growing ranks of perfectly intelligent people who regard your so-called science as a suffocative belief dictatorship, pure and simple, as repellant and hardline as anything Stalin or Brezhnev were part of; I thought that these wiki articles were supposed to scrupulously present BOTH sides regardless of science. This is an article about homeopathy not about science. or is that a hopelessly naive view? There just does not seem any point in adding to this heap of refuse any more, let alone trying to give balance and facts. stuff it I give up. Peter morrell 19:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The idea of science being a "suffocative belief dictatorship" is completely inconsistent with the multitude of novel facts science integrates every year and that the theories that have been used to explain these facts have changed radically over time. If science did indeed enforce conformity, then we would still describe disease as an imbalance in the four humors or a result of "miasma" or bad air. In fact, the amazing pace of scientific change reveals this to be a truly revolutionary and powerful way of examining the world.--TimVickers 20:14, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

text: it behaves EXACTLY in this way and that is enough; you believe what you like; degrees and professorships in biochemnistry are NOT adequate qualifications for makijng reliable judgements about homeopathy. and never will be. period. Peter morrell 20:54, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

text: that science is a belief dictatorship is not an IDEA, it is absolutely an observation of fact. Indeed science is a complete modern-day religion. Idiots and science zealots [science geeks] come to this article who know completely nothing about homeopathy, NOTHING, and yet they pontificate about it as if they know everything. They know nothing. and reveal only their profound ignorance, riding piggy-back, as ignorance usually does, upon their arrogance. Homeopathy has nothing whatsoever to do with chemistry and never will do. To believe otherwise is quite simply to believe that some pathetic qualification in golf enables one to comment intelligently upon tennis or boxing. Such is frankly a quite farcical proposition. Peter morrell 21:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What about Jacques Benveniste, didn't he use science to explore homepathy?  To say that chemistry has nothing to do with homeopathy is not correct. If it that was true, why would various groups interested in homepathic medicine fund scientific research? David D. (Talk) 00:06, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Your statements above are certainly interesting and colourful opinions Peter, thank you for contributing them to this discussion. However, for homeopathy to work, it does require that the potency of drugs increases with dilution. Since I prepare dilution series of drugs every week and see concentrated solutions having large effects on cells and dilute solutions small effects, I am sure you can see that my sceptical attitute towards this claim is entirely reasonable from my perspective, based on the repeated and unvarying results of these experiments.--TimVickers 23:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ...the strongest possible dose in Homeopathy is water...where's the Amazing Randi when you need him?    Modusoperandi 05:25, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Benveniste, there are some dilutions that work very well, such as 1060, while others are next to useless. My bet is that Tim is not preparing his dilutions correctly.  Sloppy preparation along with the incorrect dilution factor will usually result in ineffective homeopathic remedies. According to Benveniste, it is all to do with the special properties of water that allow a memory of the active ingredient without the side effects.  If you get optimal dilution, without contaminants, it is even possible to transmit the healing properties over the internet in the form of electromagnetic energy resonance. Obviously this sounds like a fantastic claim but Benveniste published this data in 1998, so it must be true. This is known as Digital Biology and is the origin of the name of the company (Digibio) he started to utilise this discovery. David D. (Talk) 05:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Perhaps I should try treating the cells with methotrexate diluted in good brandy? I get a bit bored doing all these EC50s, so a more imbibable diluant would do me good.--TimVickers 15:57, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's all about the solvent Tim. Make it worth while. David D. (Talk) 15:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lancet