Talk:Mitt Romney 2008 presidential campaign

message: I am not and have never been a big fan of criticism sections. I would like to integrate the section into the article. I understand there has been discussion of this above but I think it can be done in a very npov way, as some of the "criticism" isn't really criticism. What do other people think? Turtlescrubber 16:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good to me if you can find an eloquent way of doing it. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 19:11, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The problem is that some (or all) of it doesn't belong in the Campaign development section because it isn't pertinent to the development of his campaign. Specifically the Marriott board section...I don't think that belongs in the article at all. Joseph Antley 19:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism Section

message: This makes much more sense
http://media.gallup.com/POLL/Releases/pr070817bi.gif 
myclob 14:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Linear Regressions should not be used 

message: To address the concerns some of you have over the use of linear regressions, I've added links to sites that summarize polling data in a similar manner, but use different methods for plotting averages.  I will keep maintaining the charts on this site, since it includes more data than the images in the attached links.  Thoughts, questions, suggestions, etc. are welcome.  This example is from the Republican California primary section, but similar links appear on this page.  
--Robapalooza 00:47, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  To address the concerns some of you have over the use of linear regressions 

message: :I restored some sections that were recently deleted.  The deletion edit summary said that they were deleted as "criticisms for events not taking place while he was campaining."  Things that a candidate did before they began campaigning that receive significant media coverage as controversies during the campaign should be included in a campaign article (e.g. Bill Clinton's marijuana use, John Kerry's service in Vietnam).  In any case, the criticism of Romney for using state troopers as security while campaigning for president is obviously a criticism of events taking place while he was compaigning.  -Fagles 15:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the "allegations of animal abuse" since I don't think it got enough media attention to deserve inclusion.  As for the part about travel costs, it probably should be re-written to mention that (according to the Globe article) that Romney pays for his political travel, and its common practice for state police to escort governors on out-of-state trips.   New England Review Me!/Go Red Sox! 16:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "criticisms for events not taking place while he was campaining" 

message: I know that it isn't common to include a section on campaign staff/advisors, but I think that in the light of recent developments (ie: Carl Rove, Harriet Miers, Michael Brown etc.) there is a growing concern over a candidate's ability to choose staffmembers.  Some of these advisors are potential cabinet members should the candidate be elected.   I am proposing the inclusion of prominent staff/advisors (and a short bio) to all candidates' campaign entries in order to help voters better understand each candidates' ability to judge character.  I believe that attention is inordinately focussed on individual candidates, when in fact, the major influence on any new administration will be in the advisors surrounding the new president.  Your input would be greatly appreciated.  ----Rawkcuf.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rawkcuf (talk • contribs) 03:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Campaign Advisors 

message: I realize I am new here, but WP:BLP would seem to indicate that the Blackwater section merits removal. There are no secondary sources cited to indicate that there is a "controversy" here, and BLP specifically warns against "claims that rely on guilt by association". Unless a third party citation can be found which notes this controversy, it should stay removed. 
I have also removed the hunting section on similar grounds. 
DJ CreamityOh Yeah! 17:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless you've contributed under a different IP/username, this appears to be the first time that you've made a comment on this discussion page. As far as BLP is concerned, non-biography articles that are about people still have to comply with BLP. It could be argued that the issue is against the campaign itself and not Romney, but anyway you look at it, just because Blackwater is "bad" and its VP is on Romney's campaign staff, does not mean that complaints about Blackwater can be included on this page and to use those complaints against Blackwater as evidence that there is a controversy about the Romney campaign, that would be against WP:SYN.  You actually need to find reliable sources that document complaints about the VP being on Romney's campaign staff. --Bobblehead (rants) 17:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have contributed to this very talk page on five different occasions. All comments have been erased in a couple of days (as is evidenced in your own surprise.) The request to not erase my comments was directed at the anonymous eraser.  Bobblehead, since Romney cited Black by name in the debates, and since Black is a major advisor to the campaign, it is only natural that mention be madein an article on the campaign. Romney's major campaign theme, as can be seen in the top banner of his official website: http://www.mittromney.com/HomePage is 'true strength for America's future'. He has spoken out about the effectiveness of intensive interrogation, and the doubling of Gitmo (all sitings can be found in the article) With Romneys stated admission that he is deferring decisions on security matters to the well qualified Black, we are left to assume that Romney's stated policy is based directly on the advice of his advisor, Black. For an article on the campaign to be written, the original author of campaign policy issues (especially when mentioned by name on nationwide primetime) becomes a prominent figure to the campaign. Whether or not complaints have been raised about certain staff members should be basis for inclusion in the article warrants little weight. (Would complaints about any other issue affect its mention in the article?) How prominently they feature in the campaign would. If complaints are necessary for Bobblehead, I submit: http://www.democracynow.org/2007/5/23/leading_gop_candidate_romney_taps_blackwaters  This complaint is registered by the worlds foremost authority on Blackwater, Jeremy Scahill.222.2.98.43 (talk) 19:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Blackwater Removal

message: 150px	Editors of this article are invited to join Wikipedia: WikiProject United States presidential elections.--STX 04:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia: WikiProject United States presidential elections]]

message: FYI, there is a Request for Comments occurring right now at the main Mitt Romney article, for anyone who may be interested.  The subject is Romney's four polygamous great-grandparents.Ferrylodge 05:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: RfC at main article

message: The entry under the "McCain's Response to Romney" section needs some desperate TLC.
READ:
In addition to Romney's hunting statements, McCain's reply also referenced reports that a landscaping company Romney had hired illegal Guatemalan immigrants to do the work. It is important to note, that Romney said he didn't ask them what their legal status was for fear of a lawsuit. He said that you don't just go up and ask things like that. He said it while at the Sept. 5th Republican debate. At the second debate, in South Carolina, McCain said he hadn't changed his views "because of the different offices that I may be running for."
I can even imagine a fifth grader writing something better, but I will leave it to you guys to decide.
RRM MBA (talk) 20:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sixth Grader Work 

message: Okay, so.. there's been a rather lengthy discussion on User talk:Qworty#Mitt Romney about the changing of the "Religious beliefs" section to include the idea that Romney's beliefs have changed. The sources added by Qworty don't actually say that his beliefs changed, only that his opinion on governmental involvement has changed. This issue sort of dips into a question of WP:OR and WP:SYN, and I believe that this article should not get involved in this. — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 15:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since it's impossible to tell (short of mind-reading) what a person's beliefs are, as opposed to that person's statements and actions, I suggest we just remove the religious beliefs section from this article, since none of us has psychic abilities.  There isn't a single source that can prove what Romney's religious beliefs are.  All we have are Romney's political statements about his beliefs, and those statements shift back and forth depending on what month it is, what state he's in, and what his current position is in the polls.  (Fourth place, as of yesterday). Qworty (talk) 16:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third opinion 

message: I find this section definitely riddled with NPOV issues...The word 'flip flopped' NEVER ABSOLUTELY NEVER belongs in an encyclopedia. Very negative connotation there. Also, the rest of the section is merely a quote, and a statement that there was a question from a snowman. There wasn't much notable stuff that happened at the debate itself, so I propose getting rid of the entire section, unless some thorough, NPOV analysis is done on the debate itself, and it shys away from the word Flip Flopped. Mientkiewicz5508 (talk) 05:33, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The debate was significant in that McCain demolished Romney on the issue of waterboarding and Huckabee did well enough to overtake Romney in polls in Iowa and nationwide.  This debate marked the rise of Huckabee and the beginning of Romney's slide in the polls.  Therefore, the debate is notable and belongs in the article, and all of these facts should go into that section.  If current trends continue, it may turn out that this was the beginning of the end for Romney, the turning point that sealed his fate. Qworty (talk) 21:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, while I find your insinuations ridiculous (and beside the point) the fact is that these 'facts' you speak of aren't referenced or included in the article, and would fall under the category of 'original research'. There's no definitive way to show/prove that Romney "got demolished" or that Huckabee's rise in Iowa polls was due to this debate. Right now the section is incredibly irrelevant, and will remain so unless someone can definitively prove either of those points and insert them into the article. Mientkiewicz5508 (talk) 12:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not "insinuating" anything.  I'm describing the importance of this debate explicitly and straight-up.  And yes, there are reliable sources out there--lots of them--to support the facts.  Qworty (talk) 14:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine, then if you are so certain the sources are out there (and are unbias, reliable sources) incorporate those 'facts' and their respective sources into that section. I'm just saying as it stands right now the section is irrelevant and lacking a NPOV. Mientkiewicz5508 (talk) 18:32, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  YouTube Debate 

message: i feel as if there has been sufficient opposition to romney to warrant an opposition section on his page.  see Hillary_Rodham_Clinton_presidential_campaign%2C_2008#Opposition and John_McCain_presidential_campaign%2C_2008#Opposing_forces.  for a starting example, see http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/23/concord-monitor-not-romney/  and http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2007/08/opposition_to_r.html and also his continued employment of illegal immigrants to do his yardwork (this is only mentioned in the article in a john mccain quote).  i am actually very surprised that this hasn't come up anywhere, since it impacts his campaign. DrIdiot (talk) 04:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't have any standard for how these campaign articles are structured; there are several variants currently being used across the 15 different articles for 2008.  I know 'Opposition' sections are used in several of the articles, but to me they are kind of silly — of course political candidates have opposition, that's the whole point!  Something like the employment of illegals for his yardwork belongs in the chronological narrative of his campaign.  Wasted Time R (talk) 04:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

text: *I'd like to know how such a section would have any more consequence than Mitt_Romney_presidential_campaign%2C_2008#Endorsements.  -- Yellowdesk (talk) 05:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

text: As User:Wasted Time R mentioned, all political campaigns have opposition. It wouldn't be politics with out it. I do not personally think an "Opposition" section is warranted, I do how ever find it quite strange there is no Criticism/Controversy section in this article, because that definitely is warranted in my opinion. Especially in one of the most negative campaigns in this election that has been met with much criticism and controversy. Public opposition through public criticism would naturally fit into such a section and I believed we should look further into that. Rtr10 (talk) 05:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Stating "most negative campaigns in this election" is a clear indicator of a strong POV. Please try to keep editing and content NPOV. Thanks. DavidBailey (talk) 03:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  opposition? 

message: If so, he should wait for a neutral third party to link his highly sought endorsement, lol. [[User:Justmeherenow|Justmeherenow] (talk) 01:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Or should we mention Romney's Daily Kos "endorsement"? Justmeherenow (talk) 19:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Kos's Mitt for Michigan/Democrats for Mitt campaign is not an endorsement of Mitt Romney, but is rather an attempt to have Democratic voters f'up the Michigan Republican primary and keep the race a three person race.--Bobblehead (rants) 19:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Thebuckstopwithbuck same as The Buck Stops With Buck Buckaroo?

message: There is no source used for the $65 million raised and that it is the most raised by any Republican ever. 4th Quarter Fundraising statistics have yet to be released, so I don't even know where this information would be sourced from. The figures seem a little odd to me and unless they are sourced soon, they should be deleted. As of September of 2007, Romney had only raised $44 million. I am adding "citation needed" tags to both of the statements.  Rtr10 (talk) 05:34, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fundraising- 65 million raised?

message: Or have one for that matter.
The way the religion section opens up is pretty ridiculous.
Romney is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (commonly referred to as the Mormon church). The practice of polygamy has been officially forbidden by the LDS church since 1890,[85] and Romney personally described it as "bizarre".[86]
This is a very non-sequitor opening.  I'm not a fan of mormonism, but I'm pretty sure if you asked a mormon what they were about "we don't have multiple wives" would not be the first thing out of their mouths.  Unless you asked "Hey, aren't you a mormon, those poeple who have multiple wives?"  It just seems like a very aggressive description of Romney's religion.
I've never been more tempted to post anonymous grafiti on wiki.  I wanted to change the quote of Romney from "Romney personally described [polygamny] as 'bizarre' but 'awesome'"
Liquid entropy (talk) 19:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This introduction on Romney's stance on faith is not a commentary on the LDS faith and its controversies. If there are objections to the LDS faith because of policies over 100 years ago, these things should be discussed on the LDS pages, not the Romney presidential campaign page. Inappropriate sections were removed. DavidBailey (talk) 03:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Re: Religion Section, also, I do not beat my wife

message: I'm very concerned that the current summary of political positions on this page is showing only the most controversial positions and statements of Mitt Romney, and is missing many of his other positions. To give a NPOV and even-handed treatment, I recommend we adopt the method used in the John McCain presidential campaign, 2008 where we don't include any summary, but just point to the main article. If there are topics that need to be addressed there, they should be addressed in that article. DavidBailey (talk) 03:14, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I hate doing summary sections of Political positions articles, because any nuance or balance or development a given view gets reduced to short and often imprecise political spectrum labels or clichés.  Wasted Time R (talk) 03:51, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Current summary of political positions is hardly NPOV

message: This text has been moved from the main article. Is it even appropriate for this article? If so, what kind of section should it be in? It probably needs rewording to be more factual and less argumentative.
:In February 2007, Romney's advisor Gary Marx sent an email to 100 influential social conservatives questioning John McCain's pro-life record (McCain has been consistently pro-life on abortion, while supporting stem-cell research) since 2000.  Commentators criticized the Romney campaign for portraying McCain as not having had a pro-life record when Romney ran on a pro-choice platform when he ran for Senate against Ted Kennedy in 1994 and when he ran for  Governor of Massachusetts in 2002.The Abortion WarsPolitico blog Retrieved June 21, 2007.Abortion ContortionsAmerican Spectator Retrieved June 21, 2007.When Romney AttacksAmerican Spectator Retrieved June 21, 2007.
:After Romney criticized McCain for his stance on immigration, McCain said, "In the case of Governor Romney, you know, maybe I should wait a couple of weeks and see if it changes because it’s changed in less than a year from his position before.  And maybe his solution will be to get out his small-varmint gun and drive those Guatemalans off his lawn."McCain Counters Romney With a Three-Way RiposteNew York Times Retrieved June 21, 2007.  In addition to Romney's hunting statements, McCain's reply also referenced reports that a landscaping company Romney had once hired had employed illegal Guatemalan immigrants to do the work. At the September 5th Republican debate, Romney said that he didn't ask them what their legal status was for fear of a lawsuit, nor did he find those types of questions to be appropriate. At the second debate, in South Carolina, McCain said he hadn't changed his views "because of the different offices that I may be running for."Giuliani Above the Fray as McCain and Romney SkirmishNew York Times Retrieved June 21, 2007.
My take is that back-and-forth between campaigns is probably not important enough to be placed in the main article, but I'm open to suggestions. DavidBailey (talk) 03:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: McCain and Romney squabbles appropriate for article? Where?

message: Just received word that CNN is reporting that Romney has "suspended" his campaign. That is curious wording. I haven't found anything in print yet and am unable to watch TV right now to verify. Mike R (talk) 17:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Now there is a short article at CNN.com here. "A candidate may "suspend" his or her campaign rather than dropping out…In this case, he or she is entitled to keep any…delegates…. Candidates who officially drop out must forfeit statewide delegates." Mike R (talk) 17:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, John Edwards did the same thing. --Kvaks (talk) 17:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It depends on the party as far as what "suspended" means. For both parties if a person drops out of the campaign, they lose all of their state-level delegates and the delegates are free to choose someone else.  If a Republican suspends their campaign the state-level delegates are not automatically released, it is up to each state party to determine if the person retains the delegates or if they go to someone else. If a Democrat suspends their campaign, then they keep all of their delegates. --Bobblehead (rants) 18:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Campaign Suspended 

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