Talk:Daylight saving time/Archive 1

message: It has always struck me as odd to "save" daylight in the summer months, when there's so much of it anyway! There are campaigns in the UK to switch to DST all year round, that is to switch to GMT+1, as in winter months schoolchildren walk home around 16:00 and this is just when night falls, the worst time of the day for visibility on the roads. -- Tarquin
:Or, they could change the school schedules to a more appropriate time without changing every clock in the country. Am I the only one who thinks daylight saving time is like trying to reduce traffic accidents by recalibrating all the speedometers to make people think they're going faster than they really are? --Brion 02:25 Sep 10, 2002 (UTC)
::My comments on this were edited a bit. I originally wrote "Campaigners in Britain would like the country to stay on BST all year round, or to adopt Central European Time". This was altered to read "Campaigners in Britain would like the country to stay on BST all year round, or in other words, adopt Central European Time". But that's not quite what I meant. I meant EITHER stay on fixed daylight saving time all year round, adding one hour to GMT, OR adopt European time, adding an extra hour to winter time and two hours to summer. -  Lee M.
:::Fixed. - Patrick 22:26, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Usefulness or lack thereof

message: I'd like to get a set of rules for major population centers, especially for English-speaking areas (like Japan, where people study ESL). 
I want to make some GPL software that tells the user what time it is in his friend or business associate's time zone, taking into account daylight saving time oddities. 
Especially when right near boundary conditions, like the last week in March or first week in April, when one might not be sure whether the Other Person is observing the same rules.
I'm going to make the software not only give you the other fellow's local time, but also display whichever rules apply.
So, if I'm in New York and you're in Chicago in the middle of the summer, we're both using the same rules -- so nothing special, you're just an hour behind: my 5:00 P.M is your 4:00 P.M. 
But if you're in Indiana, where some counties have opted out of DST... 
Or if it's soon after midnight, the last weekend in October and NYC has just set its clocks back -- but you're in Denver and haven't set yours back...
Or Cuba, which "springs forward" an April 1st... or those puzzling folks in Europe who do it a week early each spring...
So, please add all this info to the article, or find me a nice juicy link and all add it myself! --Uncle Ed 16:51, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice Juicy Link (TM): http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm  -- Catherine 05:03, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Time zone source material

message: User 81.225.47.48 changed Brazilian DST starts at 12:00AM of a October (rarely November) Sunday to Brazilian DST starts at noon of a October (rarely November) Sunday in order to be "less ambiguous".  True, "noon" is less ambiguous than either "12:00 AM" or "12:00 PM" would be, but is this really correct?  Most of the world switches to DST in the night;  is Brazil an exception here??   There is no link to a Portuegues article on this topic, and the Spanish version is to brief to give any details.   Btw, Brazil stretches over 3 time zones.  If all of them change to DST at noon, that must be a mess... 
Also, I don't think that going from ends at 2:00 AM on the last Sunday in October to ends at 2 :00 on the last Sunday in October helps "unambiguation".  You could argue that such changes does not introduce any new ambiguity, since everybody will understand that the 24 hour clock is used, but my experience tells me that not everybody is used to the 24 hour clock.  Aleph4 21:58, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 12 hour vs 24 hour again

message: I'm familiar with the "rules" of daylight savings time. However, I'm searching for specific answers about its observation in two locations in two different months and years. Can anyone tell me whether or not daylight savings time was observed in (1)Barbourville, Kentucky, USA (Knoxville County) in June of 1950, and (2)Shreveport, Louisiana USA in September of 1954? Or can anyone refer me to a source that has detailed information about which states, counties, or parishes chose daylight savings time during the years when the locals could choose for themselves (i.e., 1945-1966)? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.--Miranda Moore
: You may want to take this to the Wikipedia:Reference desk, where questions like this are better suited. Dysprosia 03:32, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's not cheap ($195), but there's a comprehensive book about the history of time changes by locale, designed for astrologers, of all things. (Maybe you can find an older edition on eBay or in used bookstores.)  It is available by computer download here: http://astrocom.com/software/pcatlas.php  -- Catherine 05:03, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: He was the one who invented it for the railroads, which ARE mentioned in the article.  I'll add him in.  -- Catherine 05:03, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: History of DST in specific areas

message: Interesting to read about a "spike in the number of severe auto accidents".  This is the opposite of the effect I've heard from DST proponents: it's usually claimed that DST saves lives, since many more people will commute during daylight, when it's safer to drive.  (Anybody have a source for this?)
Also, the study I found that states that auto accidents spike due to DST (http://www.bnsf.com/media/articles/2004/04/2004-04-01-c.html?index=/media/articles/index.html) says that auto accidents dropped by the same amount when daylight savings ends (and people get extra sleep).  So making a spike in auto accidents sound like a simple case-against sounds quite misleading.
:There was one early study by Stanley Coren that indicated accidents went up when the clocks were set back and down when the clocks were set forward, but that finding has been overturned. I've added this link which should set the record straight. More on the history of the controversy can be gleaned from a comment and reply that took place in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1996. I can dig up the specific references if anyone wants them. TrulyTessa 15:55, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Auto safety 

message: Can someone tell the server about a phenomenon called Daylight Savings Time, so I don't have so switch between GMT-5 and GMT-6 every time we have DST?
: The specific date, direction, and amount of shift to "correct" for the changing light levels is very much location-specific; indeed, some places don't have any need of it at all. The server is in GMT (well, an approximation of UTC-1, AIUI); the clocks change but twice a year, and I'm sure that you can cope. In fact, I don't have it change, and use my head to do the offset instead (well, 'tis only an hour for me, so...).
: James F. (talk)
::It would be simple.  There could be a check box that says "Please auto-correct my time shift for daylight savings time", so it would only do it if you wanted it to.   If there are different types of daylight savings times around the globe, it could have an option to select which type. Worth submitting a feature request for, I might do it soon if nobody else has.  —siroχo 04:26, Aug 2, 2004 (UTC)
::: Over here in Israel, there is a vote taking place every year, that determines the DST shift in/shift out. Computer modelling of our politicians to predict what they are going to vote on would be mostly welcome. :-) Seriously, a common practice is using NTP to feed off a trusted server, and once it jumps, you know that the daylight savings jumped. The server is manually updated. Some systems just have some hardwired approximate default dates, so around the shift they give wrong time for about a month in the worst case. BACbKA 20:58, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You use NTP to transmit local times and not UTC? Oh, the horror, the horror... David.Monniaux 14:07, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Israel appears to define the start of DST in the common calendar and the end by the Hebrew calendar, which actually makes sense.  Because of a Sunday to Thursday workweek, Israel starts and ends Friday. Henry Troup 22:09, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text:  Most open source Unix systems use a library produced by NIH that knows about virtually every set of timezone rules on earth and is capable of translating things like US/Eastern + an offset in GMT into the local time and date. This library is extremely well maintained, the timezone files cover almost all jurisdictions on the planet, and updates come out several times a year. The code is all open source. There is no reason not to use it. --Pmetzger 21:03, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  DST 

message: The link Time Zone Converter is down as of 4 November 2004.
I have hidden the same in the article.
--Mahadevan T S 10:44, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Xerox timezone converter app is down

message: Can the article have some statistics or have a link to some statistics that list out the sunrise and sunset times of major countries, for different months of the year. I live in the tropics, and haven't experienced DST. Hence its difficult for me to understand exactly how people (in the temperate zone) find DST useful and how it affects their daily life. Jay 10:05, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've lived in Hawaii most of my life (with no DST) but went to school in the U.S. Pacific Northwest, which is around 45 degrees north latitude.  That far north, sunrise usually happens at around 05:00 (DST) and the sun sets at around 21:00 (DST)...that means that you could go for an evening stroll while it's completely lighted.  I'm sure there are some calculators around that allow you to calculate sunrise and sunset given latitude and longitude...  KeithH 07:28, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: The big advantage of DST is that it "transfers" an hour or so from early in the day when few people are up and about to the evening, when activity is high. In effect there is a "free" hour of sunlight, with consequent savings in electicity usage. During WW2 the UK experienced double DST, when the clocks were advanced two hours rather than one, to take advantage of the very long hours of sunlight in high summer. Personally, I enjoy the long summer evenings, and it is pleasant to take a stroll or have a relaxing drink outside at that time of year, using time that would otherwise be dark. A disadvantage for parents of small children is that it can be harder to get them to sleep while the sun is still quite high in the sky. Pete 08:55, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Instead of companies changing from 9-to-5 to 8-to-4 in the summer, the government adjusts the entire clock, which helps get rid of the public's perception of "oh no, we're waking and sleeping too early!"4.232.102.207 20:10, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: So how exactly is DST useful ?

message: Some campaigners in Britain would like the country to stay on British Summer Time (BST) all year round, or in other words, adopt Central European Time and abolish BST. … This would make winter evenings longer, thereby reducing traffic accidents and cases of seasonal affective disorder.
It wouldn't necessarily reduce SAD.  I suffer from it, and for me the biggest problem is the darkness in the morning.  Many SAD sufferers, including myself, need the dawn to tell our bodies that it is time to wake up and hence have difficulty waking up during the winter.  We can also have difficulty staying awake during the day as, even though we may have had eight hours as recommended, our bodies are still convinced that we were woken up in the middle of the night.
Granted, the above problems can be worked around with a dawn simulator, but that does not excuse adopting a time system that would trigger new cases of SAD and/or worsen existing ones.  The existence of a treatment for any given illness does not make it ethically acceptable to adopt an avoidable practise which will trigger that illness, and SAD is no exception.
Melatonin is produced as it gets dark, making us feel sleepy. At dawn, as the light increases, melatonin production falls and we start to wake up. We find it difficult to wake up on dark mornings because our melatonin levels are still high.From: http://www.lumie.com/sad.htm
Other information: http://www.solar-components.com/dawnsim.htm
----
(Please sign your posts on Talk pages using "~~~~")  But what do you disagree with?  It says "some campaigners" and it says the number of cases of SAD would be reduced.  Not you, perhaps, but some.    Paul Beardsell 01:13, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I challenge a statement made in the main article 

message: Does the paragraph on Sir Sandford Fleming belong in this article?  I don't think so.  He was involved in the creation of "standard time", i.e., time zones, but he didn't have anything to do with daylight saving time. Indefatigable 23:40, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sir Sandford Fleming 

message: Queensland did in fact experiment with DST, for 1 or possibly 2 years, in the late 1960s or early 1970s.  I know because I lived there at the time and it was very topical.  The then Premier Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen decided not to repeat it after then.  The story goes that his political supporters, a large proportion of whom were rural dwellers, did not like DST because "the cows get confused and don't produce enough milk", or "the extra sunshine fades the curtains".  These are no doubt apocryphal, but still say something about the kind of people we're dealing with here.  Queensland has therefore been out of step with the rest of the eastern seabord for 35 years (some would say forever).  JackofOz 04:43, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Queensland

message: I've long thought that in a hot and sunny country like Australia, we should have DST, but rather than doing it in summer, we should do it in winter instead.  Australia is already way too sunny, as evidenced by the highest rate of skin cancers in the world.  We simply don't need any more daylight in our lives in summer, we have too much already.  But in winter we could definitely do with some more daylight at the end of the day, whereas currently we tend to go home in at best fading light, or more usually darkness.  Yes, it would mean we'd be getting up in darkness, but that's true for most people anyway so there's no loss there.  I've been on this particular soapbox for at least 30 years, but so far our governments have failed to heed my brilliant advice.  JackofOz 04:43, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: DST in Winter

message: :The only advantage I can see to having DST all year round is, rather than adjusting everyone's perception of time(9-to-5 is now 8-to-4), it adjusts the time zone to get rid of the phsychological aspect 4.232.102.207 20:15, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I know, it's pretty amazing that nothing actually happens to the sun or the earth's rotation.  All we're doing is some renumbering. CoolGuy 18:52, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: DST all year round

message: Shouldn't there be a mention of the (proposed?) changes to DST in the USA?  They're talking about extending it by four weeks, or maybe they've already passed the laws.
: It's already there: Daylight saving time#In the US, 5th through 7th paragraphs of the section. Indefatigable 01:22, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent US changes to DST

message: I just visited this article wanting to know when Daylight Saving Time is in the Eastern time zone, and I had to scroll down quite a ways in the article to find out.  And the article on Eastern Daylight Time is even less helpful. Perhaps someone with time on his hands could create a table for quick reference as to when DST begins and ends for each time zone/state?  Just a thought.  --zenohockey 17:06, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where is the key information? 

message: The fact that Japan does not observe DST has been in and out of the article a couple of times. While I agree that a separate section in this article on Japan is too much, I think one should be able to find the fact in Wikipedia. Perhaps in a table, as suggested in the previous talk entry by zenohockey (but not limited to USA)?--Niels Ø 19:00, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not an endless compendium of every fact imaginable.  If you want to put together a list of countries that observe DST and those that don't, they might be able to exist as their own articles, but I question their usefulness.  An article about DST should tell us what DST is, its history, purpose, changes over time, challenges to it, and a sampling of how various groups practice it.  An article about currency wouldn't need to list what currency every country in the world uses it, but a small sampling is appropriate.  The other information has its place elsewhere. Peyna 21:16, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Time zone already lists all countries and whether they observe DST (via one or two asterisks). Countries that don't observe DST, like Japan, don't have an asterisk. — Joe Kress 08:27, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Sorry I guess I missed this section when creating the one below.  I agree with Joe Kress and Penya.  Use and history of DST is the driving force behind inclusion in this article; note that the US has a large section because its DST implementation is complex (Indiana is noted for its unusual [perhaps perverse] observation, and Hawaii and Arizona are noted for their non-observance in a country that otherwise uses DST).  There may be other geographical entities whose system warrants a similarly large section, but countries that don't observe DST, such as Japan, don't need to be mentioned.  However, it might be good to indicate more prominently that observation of DST is listed in the time zone article. Fsiler 08:40, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japan etc 

message: The point of this article should not be to list every country; rather, it should be to list conventions or history where applicable.  My regards to the person who added Japan, but I don't think it's terribly useful just to note that Japan doesn't use DST.  It'd be much more worthwhile to note if they had experimented with it and rejected it, for example. Fsiler 12:43, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Policy on usage section

message: Someone changed the intro to say "North American" instead of "U.S." term, which is fine, except that I'm pretty sure in Mexico its referred to as "summer timetable," or "Horario de Verano" in spanish.  So "U.S. and Canadian" term would be more accurate.  Perhaps the intro could just be rewritten to read something like the following in order to avoid the problem all together, then there can be a section about what people where call it.  I'll let this sit here either until it gathers some comments or is ignored for a few days and then move it out to the main page if there is no problem.
Daylight saving time (DST) (also known as, summer time, summer timetable, summer schedule) is the term for a system intended to "save" daylight. In most cases, the official time is adjusted forward one hour from its official standard time throughout the spring and summer months.  The purpose is to provide a better match between the hours of daylight and the active hours of work and school. DST is most commonly used in temperate regions, due to the considerable variation in the amount of daylight versus darkness between the seasons in those regions.
Peyna 15:21, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro

message: I think it would be extremely handy to have a table of information containing a list of when a country begins its DST, when it leaves it, how large the offset is, and when it will change in the future if relevant (this has particular relevance to the United States at the moment).
I can see the argument that it doesn't belong on a page discussing the history and rationale behind DST, but it is certainly the case that it would be incredibly useful.  I'd even broach the theory that at least 50% of the people who visit the Daylight saving time page are looking for just such information.  I'd be happy to fire one up of no one objects. Markkawika 06:23, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe that would be appropriate for a subpage, so that it doesn't clutter the main page up?  I think that's most people's concern. Peyna 14:15, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

text: You are basically proposing to take a copy of the Zoneinfo database and put it in as a wikipedia article.  If you haven't read a recent version of the zoneinfo files, I suggest you do.  They are very detailed.  If you really think this would be of value, rather than just referring people to the file elsewhere, then definitely use a subpage, not the main page.  You can get an up to date copy of the Zoneinfo file at  Stephen.frede 05:39, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Table of countries that use it, when and how

message: There's an infamous quote: "Britain was the first nation to adopt daylight saving schemes in 1908. Some people believe the pragmatically minded British did it to make economy on candles." TASS, Moscow , is the quote incorrect, or the origin paragraph?
:The origin paragraph is correct—Tass in wrong. I am surprised that Greenwich Mean Time would have such an erroneous quote on its web page. Although Willet proposed DST in 1907, Britain did not adopted it until World War I. — Joe Kress 07:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Question Regarding Origin

message: MS really botched up their DST for the Melbourne 2006 Commonwealth Games. I just can't understand why they added a new TZ instead of altering the existing one! - Ta bu shi da yu 13:42, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Microsoft botchup 

message: Should we add a table as to when DST starts and ends around the world, and record any historical changes that were made (ie Sydney Olympic Games & 2006 Melbourne Commonwealth Games)? - Ta bu shi da yu 13:46, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table? 

message: I believe I read somewhere that during World War II, for a brief period of time they implimented double daylight savings time to help with the war effort. The clocks were turned ahead two hours.
:If this is true, it would be great to add to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.151.164.18 (talk • contribs) 
:I believe it is true, and was known as 'double-daft time'. jazzle 22:48, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  World War II 

message: The article says that:
No formal studies have been performed, but an enormous amount of time has been spent by software developers to deal with the fact that 2400 hours past 2pm is not necessarily 2pm 100 days later.
This is blatantly misleading. As any programmer should know, DST has been a part of standard libraries for a very long time, and the normal programmer does not have to worry about it at all. --69.221.228.91 14:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's true that the applications programmer never worries about DST, but the systems programmers do. In fact, Microsoft's solution to the one time extenstion of daylight savings time in Austriala for the winter games and the switch in Indiana both required some work by systems admins on the effected systems. (Install a patch for Australlia before the games and then uninstall it afterwords. Those your clock settings from Indiana to Eastern prior to start of DST for those that switched. For those counties that changed timezone in Indiana from Eastern to Central, switch the clock settings from Indiana to Central after the start of the DST. ) Jon 16:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Programmers? 

message: ... needs a rewrite - it is poor English, and is certainly US English biased.
:I agree, I have read a number of sections of the article and considering this is already a complicated topic, this article certainly doesn't help to make it easier to understand. For example in the section about Arizona it gives the reason for not opbserving DST as something to do with air-conditioning, I mean, wtf? Joe 1987 02:35, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Both Phoenix and Tucson frequently have highs above 100 F during the summer, and occansionaly above 110 F. This is in the ballpark of 40 C. Jon 16:11, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism Section 

message: The article states:
"currently observes DST, however, there is a petition drive to place a question on state ballots in 2008 to discontinue DST in the state. This is driven by concern for safety in the morning, when it will be dark for several hours due to the extremely short winter days at such latitudes"
This needs clarification or explanation. On the face of it, whether or not Alaska observes DST in the summer will have no effect on the safety of driving in the morning in the extremely short winter days. Ordinary Person 08:14, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, since the Wiki is not a crystal ball, I'm going to remove the Alaska section entirely for now. Until petitions are submited, it doesn't belong here. Jon 15:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alaska: Explanation for opposition 

message: I changed the capitalisation of the word Lady, as it is clear from the context that Lord Balfour was talking about a Lady, not a lady.  If that makes any sense.--Blah.blah.blah 19:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  very minor edits 

message: I've pulled most of the POV statements from individal states; no need to duplicate portions of pro/con arguments from those sections for each state. I've also changed the section of the name; the wiki is supposed to report what name(s) are used not say one choice is superior or inferior. I've also cut down Indiana in size since it now observes DST. Finally, I've added requests to cite a few sources. Jon 16:04, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV related edits