Talk:Bretwalda

message: In line with what's just been said, I've toned down the language a bit in the article and given the views of Stenton and Keynes, though these could easily be expanded on. More controversially, I've also removed the list of Mercian kings from the page. It seems more and more like this page is going to be about the term Bretwalda and how it was used and applied, while having the list of Mercian kings goes back to this idea of assuming there is a fixed title and that there must be an incumbent. Increasingly it seems like we need a page on Anglo-Saxon overlordship, or perhaps more generally Anglo-Saxon kingship, which could cover the "Mercian supremacy" and all the other intracacies of early kingship. I'll make the page myself if I find time. Harthacanute 21:24, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Were any of Egbert's successors called Bretwalda? They weren't even overlords, unlike the Mercians, who were only excluded because of West Saxon bias. TharkunColl 21:59, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a pretty good point, and I think you're right. If we are going for this as a page about who the title was attributed to, then I think the changes I'm about to make will make sense. Perhaps there is also scope for mentioning more of the nuances of Bede and the Chronicle on this page - i.e. why the Mercian kings are passed over. Harthacanute 23:23, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Historiographical focus

message: I've added a short section listing the English rulers to which the Welsh annalists gave the title "King of the Saxons". I think this is important as it casts doubt on the idea that the Mercian kings were recognized overlords of the English kings from 658 till 829. I have not changed the list of Mercian rulers, but I have renamed that section "Mercian rulers" rather than "Mercian overlords". This is not a terribly good heading, but I think it needs some heading that avoids giving the impression that the Mercian kings before Ethelbald had a clear authority over the other English kings. Vortimer (talk) 05:28, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  King of the Saxons 

message: I have removed the lists of those not described as 'bretwalda' in any source, and given each of the kings listed his full regnal dates in place of the dates forming a continuous sequence. As the article itself indicates, academic consensus has long since rejected the old notion that there was a concrete, generally recognised and more or less continuous position of supreme overlord. The true substance of the term is highly dubious, and it probably amounts to little or nothing more than self-proclaimed or retrospectively perceived 'bragging rights' for the duration of a (usually brief) ascendancy. It is a deeply problematic interpretative conceit of one historian, borrowed and rebranded two and a half centuries later by another, not a solidly attested institutional reality. It is absurd to try to contrive a 'real' list of bretwaldas, compensating for the anti-Mercian chauvinism of the Northumbrian and West Saxon sources, since the reality of the concept of 'bretwalda' outside those same sources is so questionable. Similarly, even as an interpretation of Bede's original conception, the idea that the kings referred to by Bede can be fitted into a continuous sequence, each one smoothly ceding the supposed 'post' to the next, is without foundation in evidence. The disappearance of one fragile hegemony did not necessarily imply the immediate establishment of another. Zburh (talk) 00:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As a matter of fact, Bede didn't describe anyone as "Bretwalda" either - he was writing in Latin, and listed those who held imperium, as he called it. Furthermore, some Mercian rulers did indeed assume Latin titles that could be translated as bretwalda - Æthelbald for example, who called himself "King of Britain", plus Offa and Coenwulf with similar titles. I've restored the most powerful of the Mercian rulers. I accept your other point about dates though. ðarkuncoll 19:14, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-bretwaldas 

message: The fact that powerful Mercians are excluded from the bretwalda and imperium lists is repeated at least three times in different places in this article (and that while it remains rather unclear and overly laconic on other points). The impression is almost as if the main author of this article is a Mercian nationalist! These bits should be merged into one, and so should the repetitions of the argument that bretwalda-ship is a literary West Saxon invention, which are also dispersed all over the article like a refrain in a song.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 00:06, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obsession with Mercia 

message: Common re-write article .
 Bretwalda means high king of Britain.
Walda means chosen,elected .Ethymologicaly related.Modern Scandinavian 'val' -election.
 Val-halla - Hall of the Chosen .
Bret-walda chosen of britain something like Irish Ari-Ra high king.
 
Edelward (talk) 21:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If you are looking for Swedish cognates, välde is more relevant.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 22:27, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chosen High King of Britain 

message: Everybody seems to have missed an obvious possibility. It seems to me that Bretwalda is derived from Old Welsh. The first syllable is clearly from the ancient name of the island and the second is derived from 'gwladwr', ie 'ruler', which would be subject to lenition following an adjective or a noun that is used as an adjective, giving 'wladwr'.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.196.1.11 (talk) 20:11, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Croft, "holder of lands" seems the closest & also implies the lowest level of abstraction: what did those words mean originally? "Bret" is close to both "breit" (wide, overall) & "Brett" (board) in modern German (or in the Middle Ages, the "Saxon" part of Anglo-Saxon) & the order of those consonants & vowel hasn't changed in Germanica too much during almost 2K yr. "Walda" is close to German "Wald" (woods, forest), which much of the land was in the Middle Ages & which looked & meant similar in Old Norse & Old German. "Covering or over all the woods & forests" or more to the point "holder of lands" seems most accurate. BubbleDine (talk) 13:12, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  An Obvious Derivation 

message: "Bretwëlde was a title in 11th and 12th centuries used in Ireland to denote the "high king". Apparently part of the Gaelic lexicon, this spelling does suggest a Germanic (Saxon) origin, as the 'w' is most likely pronounced as a 'v'."
I have removed the above sentences as they are most likely nonsense (I cannot find any reference to them anywhere other than on the internet on pages that are referencing this article) and other than that it is still ridiculous as if it was part of the lexicon of Gaelic it would have to be a borrowing from brytanwalda but not for the reason cited. The "w" in Old English (as it was originally in all Germanic languages... see Proto-Germanic) was pronounced as the "w" in English (that is the "w" in say "water" or "woman") not as the "w" in High German and most other modern Germanic languages (which are indeed like the "v" in English words like "very" or "vacant" (which are incidentally mostly borrowing from other languages). Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 13:34, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed sentences... 

message: "Bretwëlde was a term used in 11th and 12th century Ireland to denote the 'high king'. Part of the Gaelic lexicon, this spelling suggests a Germanic (Saxon) origin, as the 'w' is most likely pronounced as a 'v'. It is also possible that the term derives from the Welsh Brit Gweldig, the term for a ruler of Britain."
Removed the same again. I have never seen such a word in any Irish annal. "Bretwëlde" is not "part of the Gaelic lexicon", we do not have such a word in our language. Fergananim (talk) 06:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed sentences (part deux)

message: As a dane, I immedietly thought that brytenwalda ment bredvælde, or "broad rule", which is close to a suggested possible translation. I find no mention of this connection anywhere in the article, but though I would leave this note to anyone with real linguistics skills to find (in case nobody had considered it before).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.130.79.38 (talk) 13:08, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible connection between Brytt and modern danish Bred 

message: Tacitus already tells that for Germanic tribes in times of war a leader will be chosen. It is very likely that the one with the most votes would be called Bretwalda: The Broadly Elected, or in today's German: Den breit Gewahldeten. The reason that the term is only mentioned for the first time in 9th century is the illiteracy of the Anglo-saxons when they arrive. Habits don't change quickly and although some Celtic words were adopted, it is not likely that in particular the most important role of the clan is a non-Anglo-Saxon word. Let alone a Welsh word where Welsh itself is an Anglo-Saxon word meaning foreigner. The original inhabitants of the Britton island were considered as the foreigners by the Anglo-Saxons! Which is even more a reason to not have the highest and elected noble give a Welsh title. Sorry for that, but id does not make sense.    Lz89z1 (talk) 09:17, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relation to the habits of the European Germanic Tribes to choose a leader  

message: Bretwalda and Folcwalding relate to each other. Latter meaning "chosen by the people".      Lz89z1 (talk) 19:00, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relation to Finn Folcwalding