Talk:Type B Cipher Machine

message: A book I just bought (The Codebreakers)  and this site both say that PURPLE was based upon the Enigma. Can someone reference the counter-claim? BrokenSegue 03:54, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We currently say, "The German Enigma machine was unrelated to PURPLE, though there have been published claims that PURPLE was merely an Enigma copy of some sort". The first part is too strong: PURPLE and Enigma are related in the sense that they are electromechanical cipher machines that produce a polyalphabetic substitution with a long period. They are also similar in that they use a cascade of simpler elements to create a constantly shifting wiring "maze". However, PURPLE is significantly different to Enigma (and all the other rotor machines) by using stepping switches, as opposed to wired rotors. I have references which assert that PURPLE and its sister machines JADE and CORAL are unique amongst crypto machines for using this component (It's not clear that Kahn was aware of this when he write Codebreakers in 1967, as he mentions "coding wheels" in his description of PURPLE. While Enigma could be described as having code-wheels, PURPLE really can't.) It would be false to say that PURPLE was an Enigma copy, pretty much by inspection. As to being based on Enigma, or derived from it, I think we should treat assertions like that with caution, simply because of how much we now know about PURPLE and Enigma's internals, but I haven't found a direct source countering the claim directly. I do have a source which says that the Japanese bought every crypto device on the market (Damm, Korn, Hagelin, Hebern, Kryha...); and adapted those principles for their own machines.  PURPLE is as close to the Hebern machine (or other rotor machines) as it is to Enigma. — Matt Crypto 09:42, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Ach, you know so much. Alright I'll keep looking for information (yeah Kahn's book is outdated, I noticed several instances where he is wrong or misleading). BrokenSegue 20:35, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Enigmas are rotor machines whereas PURPLE was constructed using telephone relays, I think by Fujitsu.  I have heard "knowledgeable" historic claims that this made for a slightly weaker machine.  Whereas apparently no examples survived the war (main page) by Operation Paperclip, somewhere might exist tallies or production counts.  I have a reference for the sub (sunk off Norway), but they likely had them Japan long before the end of the way (in the German embassy in Tokyo and likely else where). 143.232.210.46 (talk) 23:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

text: I don't think that last statement is true, and anyway, if you read the RED article you'll see that it was based on a completely different type of rotor technology than ENIGMA (and indeed, that one of the reasons it is different is that they correctly didn't trust the Japanese not to steal the mutiple rotor technology used in the ENIGMA-style machines). Mangoe (talk) 10:37, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Yep, AFAIK. The mechanics were different, but the output result was much the same.  TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura  02:04, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Engima?

message: The German Enigma machine was unrelated to PURPLE, though there have been published claims that PURPLE was merely an Enigma copy of some sort. In fact, the PURPLE machine was a Japanese development, one of a series designed by a Japanese Navy captain, though there seems to have been some assistance by at least one Polish officer prior to the 1930s. There is some evidence that the Germans shipped several military Enigma machines to Japan by submarine late in the War; several sources suggest that they never arrived.
: Enigmas are rotor machines whereas PURPLE was constructed using telephone relays, I think by Fujitsu.  I have heard "knowledgeable" historic claims that this made for a slightly weaker machine.  Whereas apparently no examples survived the war (main page) by Operation Paperclip, somewhere might exist tallies or production counts.  I have a reference for the sub (sunk off Norway), but they likely had them Japan long before the end of the way (in the German embassy in Tokyo and likely else where). 143.232.210.46 (talk) 23:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that last statement is true, and anyway, if you read the RED article you'll see that it was based on a completely different type of rotor technology than ENIGMA (and indeed, that one of the reasons it is different is that they correctly didn't trust the Japanese not to steal the mutiple rotor technology used in the ENIGMA-style machines). Mangoe (talk) 10:37, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Yep, AFAIK. The mechanics were different, but the output result was much the same.  TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura  02:04, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: The German Enigma machine and PURPLE

message: Why did crypto machines not use Kana?  Jim.henderson 04:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If Kana-type used, somebody has to translate Japanese kana-text in English text at an embassy or a consulate. By use of Roman-type, A diplomatic note in English text can just send and receive it.  Of course, Kana-type is convenient and used by communication of the Japanese Navy inside. Tuve74 12:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you.  I didn't realize the diplomatic side of cryptography was so much separated from the military side despite the Navy doing the work.  Somebody once told me Japanese Army crypto work was handicapped by the need to translate everything into Italian.  That fellow's confusion between the Roman alphabet and the Italian language warned me that he didn't know what he was talking about, but now I see that a similar problem actually arose in diplomatic communication, presumably due to the difficulty of transliterating foreign languages into the familiar Kana.  Anyway with modern computers using ISO character standards I guess it's all easier.  Jim.henderson 16:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Several other things to consider:
1> If kana was to be used, the coding table would be absolutely huge for even a simple substitution programme. Thus any chance of portability at that time would go out the window. 
2> Upon deciphering the Kana, you would have a VERY SPECIFIC decipherment of the code being transmitted. Leaving the concerned party(ies) at even more risk. With romaji, there is an element of still having to translate what was indeed the intent of the message. ie: there are many more combinations of Romaji characters that would be meaningless. 80.5.219.60 (talk) 18:17, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Why Romaji?

message: Answer to Ww, he was Teiji Takagi (高木　貞治)
The articles are below.
*http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/高木貞治
*Hiroshi Kimura, "World War II and Teiji Takagi "(第二次世界大戦と高木貞治), 17th Symposium on the History of mathematics 2006, Institute for mathematics and Computer science Tsuda College.
:"Before and during the war, when the doubt of the printing machine (PURPLE) was decoded in Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Ministry of Foreign Affairs telegraphic communication section without technical knowledge referred to the navy, and the navy quoted evaluation of Teiji Takagi, and concluded that "such thing is impossible".
Tuve74 01:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Who was the mathematician?

message: There is (was) no articles that he was an expert for cryptanalysis. According to the article of Hiroshi Kimura above-mentioned, "No Japanese mathematician aware of relations of a cryptology and mathematics before november 1940". But it is almost impossibility to prove that they ware not. How am I good?
*In 1937, the Japanese navy was going to evaluate of combinations of key after the PURPLE was completed, not before. The navy looked for a well-qualified mathematician for evaluation. 
*The Japanese mathematicians were not able to give a clear evaluation, Teiji Takagi was one of them also. 
*After having examined for two or three days, Teiji Takagi informed the navy that "Key combinations is more than 1,000,000,000,000. More detailed calculations are not possible". The navy was satisfied with his answer, because he was a most famous mathematician in those days. Tuve74 11:58, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation about Teiji Takagi was unaware of the basics of cryptanalysis

message: The artiacle is not very readable.
Its hard to understand if all the references to navy or amry refer to the american army or the japanes army.
Seems like it wasnt writen by a native english speaker.
Please somebody improve it.
:Yes, it's mostly a poor translation from Japanese, and stylistic improvements from someone who knows the subject would be a good thing.  No, it's mostly about the Japanese code making authorities, and when it's about the American code breakers, that's generally pretty clear.  Jim.henderson 13:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor readabilty 

message: According to the NSA website, Genevieve Grotjan Feinstein was instrumental in the breaking of the Purple cipher, yet the article does not mention her... --ukexpat 14:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "The Story of Magic", by Rowlett, also indicates that she was the person who made the most important breakin (although it was a team effort, and others had made major contributions before). It's described on pp. 151-153 (1998 hardback edition). Noel (talk) 22:19, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Mention of Genevieve Grotjan Feinstein? 

message: What has become truly amazing to me is how thoroughly Japanese cryptographic material was destroyed during and especially near the end of WWII. With over 100,000 Enigma machines made, admittedly it had a commercial start, we have somewhere a warehouse full of captured machines of various varieties, and a small market economy of traders (e.g., eBay) and various associated peripheral artifacts (e.g., code key books), yet not one JN25 machine (what we call), not one complete Purple or Red and few captured artifacts survive.  And the firms which made these machines still survive (not one blueprint survives?).  Hard to say how many lower level intelligence officers survive (I think I know the son of a US MIS officer who likely debriefed Japanese officers during and after WWII and had access to post-war collected materials <the son was born at Ft Meade>).  It is true that the historic NSAers call the Enigma fans "Enigma" fetishers.  Yes, I have read Budiansky's book, and live not far from Two Rock (and need to try to locate Rebeccia what's her name cited in his book).  I raised this with David Kahn at a meeting in October, but he didn't know what to say.  Ditto Jim Bamford who was also at the meeting. 198.123.51.178 (talk) 23:37, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: not one JN25 machine?? JN25 was, IIRC, a book code? Noel (talk) 16:18, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Truly Amazing 

message: This article is poorly written and needs more citations.
what is this "Further Reading" section, I do not see it on other articles.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.211.171.23 (talk) 21:21, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  What? no!