Talk:Philadelphia/Archive 2

message: Cities and counties, formerly separate entities, that have since merged and are now coextensive:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_city-county
Philadelphia is listed there ...
evrik 19:00, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the good thing about wikipedia is that one can correct mistakes. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 20:01, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Gotta keep fixing your errors. evrik 20:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

text: As a former resident no i have never herd of the City and County of Philadelphia. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 21:06, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have not heard it called that either. In fact the only time I ever hear Phildelphia County mentioned is when the weather service makes an alert for the area. MechBrowman 21:17, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am a former Philadelphia resident as well.  Please note from my comments above that I never said that it was called the City and County of Philadelphia, or anything like that.  My point was that City and County governments have merged, being one and the same, and the borders of the city are coterminous with that of the county.  That's exactly what happened in San Francisco.  And unlike other large cities with have subsumbed their counties, Philadelphia County still maintains a separate legal existence, which mainly comes up in the area of the courts and judicial functions.  I don't think this needs to be a contentious issue.  - Sensor 22:06, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consolidated city-county 

message: Look at this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_County
It refers righ to the city page. The same should hold true for Philadelphia.
evrik 19:00, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistency 

message: The following sections from Title 16 of the Unconsolidated Pennsylvania Statutes are instructive:
§ 201. Enumeration of counties.
The State shall be divided into the following sixty-seven named counties, as now established by law: Philadelphia, Bucks, Chester, Lancaster, York, Cumberland, Berks, Northampton, Bedford, Northumberland, Westmoreland, Washington, Fayette, Franklin, Montgomery, Dauphin, Luzerne, Huntingdon, Allegheny, Mifflin, Delaware, Lycoming, Somerset, Greene, Wayne, Adams, Centre, Beaver, Butler, Mercer, Crawford, Erie, Warren, Venango, Armstrong, Indiana, Jefferson, McKean, Clearfield, Potter, Tioga, Cambria, Bradford, Susquehanna, Schuylkill, Lehigh, Lebanon, Columbia, Union, Pike, Perry, Juniata, Monroe, Clarion, Clinton, Wyoming, Carbon, Elk, Blair, Sullivan, Forest, Lawrence, Fulton, Montour, Snyder, Cameron and Lackawanna.
(Emphasis supplied)
§ 210. Counties divided into nine classes.
For the purposes of legislation and the regulation of their affairs, counties of this Commonwealth, now in existence and those hereafter created, shall be divided into nine classes as follows:
(1) First Class Counties, those having a population of 1,500,000 inhabitants and over. * * *
See also Article IX, § 13 of the Pennsylvania Constitution:
Section 13. Abolition of County Offices in Philadelphia
(a) In Philadelphia all county offices are hereby abolished, and the city shall henceforth perform all functions of county government within its area through officers selected in such manner as may be provided by law.
(b) Local and special laws, regulating the affairs of the City of Philadelphia and creating offices or prescribing the powers and duties of officers of the City of Philadelphia, shall be valid notwithstanding the provisions of section thirty-two of Article III of this Constitution.
(c) All laws applicable to the County of Philadelphia shall apply to the City of Philadelphia.
(d) The City of Philadelphia shall have, assume and take over all powers, property, obligations and indebtedness of the County of Philadelphia.
(e) The provisions of section two of this article shall apply with full force and effect to the functions of the county government hereafter to be performed by the city government.
(f) Upon adoption of this amendment all county officers shall become officers of the City of Philadelphia, and until the General Assembly shall otherwise provide, shall continue to perform their duties and be elected, appointed, compensated and organized in such manner as may be provided by the provisions of this Constitution and the laws of the Commonwealth in effect at the time this amendment becomes effective, but such officers serving when this amendment becomes effective shall be permitted to complete their terms.
From the provisions cited above, the following should be clear:
# Philadelphia County still has a cognizable legal status under Pennsylvania law.
# Philadelphia County is the one and only First Class county in Pennsylvania, as it is the only county with a population in excess of 1.5 million.
# The Pennsylvania Constitution abolished "all county offices" and provided that the City of Philadelphia would "perform all functions of county government", which includes the several various county offices required by Pennsylvania law, including the sheriff, prothonotary, district attorney, and the like.
This is what distinguishes Philadelphia County from some other large cities which have swallowed up their counties.  The county still legally exists but yet has no legal functions whatsoever.  It is not a consolidated city-county, because by the time the county offices were abolished, the city was the county, and the county was the city. This is in contradistinction to, say, the Unigov concept in Indianapolis, the Louisville-Jefferson County Metro Government or the "two-tier" system in Miami-Dade. - Sensor 22:55, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legal status of Philadelphia County 

message: Why is there so much eagerness for a merge here?  While nobody disputes that Philadelphia County and the city of Philadelphia are now coterminous, I don't see why that should be the end of it.  We have separate articles about London and Greater London, for instance, in spite of the fact that the two are, so far as I am aware, considerably closer to being identical than Philadelphia County and City are.  Basically, looking at the Philadelphia County article, it looks pretty useful at the moment.  As others have noted, prior to 1952, the two had separate functions, and prior to 1854, the city did no encompass the whole county.  The whole history of all this is gone into in some detail on the Phialdelphia County page, which is appropriate.  It would be inappropriate to go into this level of detail on the Philadelphia, Pennsylvania page, which ought to focus on being an encylopedia article about a major American city.  It seems obvious that the clear answer to this dilemma is to maintain a separate page on the county in order to deal with the complex issues of city and county relationship that there is no particular need to go into great detail on in the main article.  john k 00:14, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am okay with having the County article exist. Boothy and I keep going back and forth about the category. I don't think the category should exist and that the category should be consolidated with the city.
evrik 15:31, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why a merge? 

message: someone requested the source for phila schools dress code.  here it is. Taco325i 05:21, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: fixed it.  Taco325i 05:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Actually, I was asking for a source of the "seldom enforced" part. WhisperToMe 05:43, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  ah sorry, should have read it more carefully. Taco325i 05:46, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Education section; dress code for public schools 

message: The US Census Update for 2004,(the American Factfinder Survey)estimated that Philly's population was 1.41 million. This hardly looks like a city whose population is growing. According to the census' current figures , Philly's population estimates for 2004 are as follows: Blacks 45.7%; whites 43%; Latinos 9.9%; Asians,5.2%; Pacific Islanders 0.2%; some other race 6.8%. Because these figures on race as on the ancestry area combined every designation that a person listed on the census form, the figures should add up to more tha 100%.  For example a person who checked himself as Italian and Irish appeared in the total for both ancestry groups. Similarly, a person who checked Hispanic, white, and Black actually had herself added to all three "groups".  It was assumed that if a person checked on any ancestry, or racial block than it was important to have that recognized.  Two final notes: Latinos and Asians combined make up 15.1% of Philly's population, hardly a drastic increase compared to some other areas of the country .  If you took the non-Hispanic whites alone/not in combination with any other racial(hey,I did not make up these categories), this group would only constitute 39.4% of Philly's population. Non-Hispanic whites ARE drastically decreasing in size from 1990 when they were an absolute majority of the city's population.  
collinss@earthlink.net
*The update in 2004 is not an actual census count. It just takes monthly sample surveys, current trends, and extrapolates them based on time and a bunch of math that does an okay (but not great) job of predicting what's going on. We won't really know until 2010. Many cities contest the updates, and they're often found to be pretty dead wrong. Anyway, I agree that Philly is probably still losing people, but the 2004 census estimate isn't something we should be using as gospel. Also, the census doesn't considers hispanic/latino to be a "race," it's an ethnic category Passdoubt | Talk 01:48, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: census detail

message: Quote from the main article:
"The City's Arab population has tripled since 1990. With people of Turkish, Iranian, Iraqi, Saudi, Syrian, Lebanese, Pakistani, and Afghani backgrounds."
Of those nationalities listed, Turks, Iranians, Pakistanis and Afghanis are not considered to be Arabs. I don't know why it was written so.
:I changed it to Middle Eastern, though I don't know how much Pakistan and Afghanistan are considered part of the Middle East.  Anyway that whole section really needs to be referenced. MechBrowman 01:57, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arabs? 

message: Well it looks like this page suffers from the LA syndrome. Now i Regret that i ever tried to make any improvments. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 05:55, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do what ever you want, i dont care, i dont monotor this page any more. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 07:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

text: My Thoughts, they dont matter. GO back to the previous box, put what ever image you want at the top. But like i siad i dont monotor this page anymore, so you do what ever you want. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 07:13, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: LA syndrome

message: "Philadelphia has long been a Black and White city, with hardly any Asians or Hispanics to speak of. "
I'm not sure what this topic sentence is trying to get at. I'd like it written more objectively, like "since 19XX, Phila has had roughly equal percentages of black and white pop, with relatively smaller percentages Asian..."  The word "hardly" is not objective, its a sloppy word to use in an encyclopedia,
Besides, I know living in Phila back in early 1980s, there was already a sizable Korean population centered on 5th and Olney. Redneb 15:55, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnography 

message: Would it be proper to add the lovely Cira Center to the list of skyscrapers? just and idea 04:01, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  cira center 

message: Somebody, without comment, deleted my contribution of Snapper (snapping turtle) Soup, which I've found is virtually unknown outside the Philadelphia area & PA Dutch country. (Ask for "snapper soup" elsewhere and it'll be the red fish of the same name.) It's still sold (in cans) under the Bookbinder's brand. http://www.foodlocker.com/53007-5.html So here I'm commenting--shall we put it back? Also, how about the famous Philadelphia pepperpot? BillFlis 14:10, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can see why it was taken out; it doesn't quite seem like it's important enough to the city for the main Philadelphia article, especially with recent concerns over the size and bloat of articles in general and this one in particular.  However, it seems like the food section as a whole is begging to be broken off into its own subarticle; such a contribution would be more than welcome there, and if you can amass a sufficient wealth of verifiable information, snapper soup can be its own article.  Are you up to being bold and creating Cuisine of Philadelphia?  (be sure to check out Cuisine of New York City, Cuisine of Toronto and Cuisine of the Pennsylvania Dutch for guidance.)  --CComMack 16:54, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait, "Cuisine of Toronto"? OK, Toronto is a great city and all, very eclectic and diverse I hear, but Philly has hundreds of years of history here, with our own terrific ethnic influences. We haven't even touched on Philadelphia-style ice cream, which is the model for all modern American ice creams. I think we could have quite a long section on just Water Ice--I don't even see Radio Balls mentioned. OK, I'll go ahead and bust out a "Cuisine of Philly" page--it may be a bit ugly for a little while, but I guess that's what Wikipedia is all about, right? BillFlis 01:33, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: will help out with Cuisine of Philly once it gets started.   and it's probably worth pointing out that Cuisine of New York City and Cuisine of the Pennsylvania Dutch probably both have something in common with Cuisine of Philadelphia -- the former because both are big multi-ethnic Northeastern cities (New York more so, admittedly) and the latter because a lot of Philadelphia's food has often come from the farms of the PA Dutch in and around Lancaster County.  the list in this article is also, of course, a good place to start. Izzycat 02:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry, I meant to invoke Toronto as a style guide, not necessarily as a source of content.  I apologize for the misunderstanding.  :-)  --CComMack 21:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No misunderstanding--I meant that if Toronto can have its own cuisine page, then surely Philly is also entitled. BillFlis 21:11, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Foods

message: I've never heard that there was an actual law that buildings couldn't be higher than Penn's head.  I had thought it was a gentleman's agreement, which somebody decided to break for the first time in the 80s... john k 08:18, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's my understanding too. Here: http://www.phila.gov/property/virtualcityhall/history.asp I found this: <quote>To reflect Philadelphia's importance, McArthur intended City Hall to be the tallest structure in the world. Unfortunately, City Hall never held that title because the Eiffel Tower and Washington monument were both completed before City Hall and both are taller than the building. Since neither of those structure are true buildings, Philadelphia's City Hall did remain the tallest occupied building until 1909, when New York built the Metropolitan Life Building. It was, however, the tallest building in Philadelphia until 1987, when a long-standing "gentlemen's agreement," discouraging constructing higher than Penn's hat, was broken with the construction of the sixty-one-story Liberty Place.</quote> BillFlis 10:50, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  skyscrapers 

message: The coordinates in the heading don't match the ones in the data box. Actually, they're pretty far apart: a minute of latitude is about a mile, and a minute of longitude at this latitude is still not much short of a mile. Anybody got a GPS? I think the coordinates listed here should be those of City Hall. Certainly not the coordinates of the airport, part of which lies outside the city. BillFlis 11:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The coordinates in the heading were the correct ones--googlemaps show them as City Hall. The coords in the infobox were somewhere in S. NJ, about halfway to the shore; I corrected those to match the heading.--BillFlis 21:40, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And I removed the redundant repetition of the coordinates in the text. The coords are already in there twice.--BillFlis 22:04, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, now the (decimal) coordinates that appear at the very top of the page (heading) are evidently incorrect. They don't match what's in the infobox, and what's more, when you click on them, you are taken to a page that refers to different coordinates with minutes & seconds. I don't know how to fix this.--BillFlis 16:16, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The decimal coördinates at upper right of article, 39.998012 N -75.144793 W, denote a location somewhere around 8th and Indiana Ave in North Philadelphia; I verified this on two paper maps (to only the first decimal place) and one electronic (TopoZone): another way to describe it is just below the 40th parallel, and just to the left of 75 degrees longitude. Not sure if the Indiana Ave location was intentionally chosen (I might have selected City Hall or some other center city location), but this location is inside the city limits and not too far from what I suppose is the geographic center of the city. I'm not sure why the page brought up when one clicks on the coördinate numbers lists different numbers, but the maps brought up from that page, such as TopoZone, are centered in the area described on the original article page coördinates: 39.998012 N -75.144793 W. EdK 23:52, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coordinates? 

message: I'm from Philly and I've never, not once, even heard of the phrase "Quaker City", let alone someone referring to Philadelphia this way.  Removing.
: It's "Quaker City" according to The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition.  2001-05. There are lots of organizations and companies in Philly that use the nickname: Quaker City Cab Co., ... Dart League, ... String Band, ... Rock Festival, etc. Here's some more sites using the term: http://www.miketodd.net/encyc/statenicks.htm http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/wilt/article9.html http://www.ushistory.org/tour/tour_stpete.htm The Phillies were called the Quakers until 1890. Convinced? --BillFlis 12:49, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quaker City? 

message: There's a separate article for history of the Philadelphia Eagles but there's no separate article for the history of Philadelphia? Geez, somebody w/ some knowledge needs to expand the history section onto its own article and shorten the blurb on this one...
 Passdoubt | Talk 02:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: The area in the sidebar says
Area
 	
Total 	349.9 km²
Land 	330.3 km²
Water 	19.6 km²
But the Geography Section says
"the city has a total area of 369.4 km² (142.6 mi²). 349.9 km² (135.1 mi²) of it is land and 19.6 km² (7.6 mi²) of it is water"
:(The above was an anonymous post.) Well, thanks for that, but what's the right answer? Citing a reference would be extra nice. On correction, I propose that since the data appears in the infobox, it doesn't need to be repeated in the text.--BillFlis 22:03, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I guess you're out of luck on this one.--BillFlis 12:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistent Area data 

message: I have not been able to verify that Clark Park has a statue of Jonathan Swift. I have found several references that say that it has the only life-size statue of Charles Dickens in the world (and Little Nell!).  http://www2.cruzio.com/~varese/dickens/statue.html http://www.clarkpark.info/AboutClarkPark.html Dickens has a connection with Philly (he famously once visited), but I don't know why we'd have Swift. Furthermore, this seems like an unnecessary detail in an article about the city. If someone wants to write an article about Clark Park, it would be more appropriate there.--BillFlis 12:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Clark Park statue?

message: ...is too long. Should be kept at two or three paragraphs at most; try not to elaborate too much on history or statistics. With the elongated table of contents, we already have enough white space as it is. --Pastricide! <I>Non-absorbing</I> 18:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction 

message: In the interests of cutting down on the size of the main article, I created a new article for Buildings and architecture of Philadelphia and moved half of the information that was previously under Skyscrapers on the main page over to it. Please help add to this article and feel free to modify anything I've done with it. Passdoubt | Talk 02:16, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Buildings and architecture 

message: I am new to using popups and I didn't know it would automatically save without edit summary or preview...Tom 14:20, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sorry

message: Example table removed
:Bad Idea, the article is way to big as it is, thing need to be removed rather then put in. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 04:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I still dont think thats a good idea, the Delaware Valley is not exact with the Philadelphia media market, as their are areas in the Philadelphia Market that are not in the Delaware Valley, and thaier are areas in the Delaware Valley that do not use Philadelphia as their primary for in market stations. Sections need to be spined off into new articles not into existing articles, so in the case for should be spinned into an article like Media in Philadelphia or similar title. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 05:10, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New TV/Radio table? 

message: Are there any objections to using one of JViocur's daytime photos as the top image? I think most of us would prefer these to a nighttime skyline so it at least appears more recognizable. Please comment here if you wish to revert to the old image or even use a new image entirely. Thank you. --Pastricide! <I>Non-absorbing</I> 21:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Skyline Image 

message: Wow! I feel so excited to live in a city that's won the All-America City Award. I must have missed watching the news that day, so I didn't even know we won, and not only that but here I find we're in the All-America City Hall of Fame! Can you believe it? Low-down Philadelphia is an acknowledged All-America City, and we're not even close to the Mid-West. I'll bet Romans have been equally delighted to win the All-Italy City Award, or Muscovites the All-Russia City Award. What exactly did we do to win this, and how can other cities try to win? It's reassuring to know that, even if Philly burns to the ground or is incinerated in a nuclear holocaust, we'll still be remembered in the All-America City Hall of Fame.--BillFlis 00:20, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: All-America City

message: I took this photo the other day, on approach to Philadelphia International Airport.  It was a small plane making a lot of abrupt course changes, so I wasn't very well oriented...anyway, I've been staring at Google Maps for a while now, and I can't figure out what I took a picture of.  (I'm pretty sure it's an island, although you can't actually confirm that from the photo since a little bit is cut off.)  Any thoughts?  — JVinocur (talk • contribs) 23:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's an un-named New Jersey industrial island located in the Delaware River between the Ben Franklin and Betsy Ross Bridges. It is connected to Pennsauken, NJ by N. 36th Street. Hope this helps you find it. --Tom 00:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's called Petty Island. A google maps link (without the name) is here EdK 00:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I belive that it also had at one time a Citgo facality, either a refinery or a terminal, which has since cloced and most of which has been torn down. I recall reading in thr Inq or the DN, that their have been plas floated to re-develope the island to include housing, a hotel/confrence center and golf course, as well as a wildlife sancutary of come kind. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 06:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Here's a nice old reference.--BillFlis 12:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can anyone identify this island? 

message: The end of the 3rd paragraph states "...with Benjamin Franklin playing an extraordinary role in Philadelphia's rise." but I don't think Philadelphia's colonial growth spurt can be attributed to Franklin. The Quakers instituted their liberal views - for the time - on freedom of religion which attracted settlers. Philadelphia was a portal for German immigrants thanks to the Quakers honoring their advertisement for cheap fertile farmland. And the local Indian tribes were generally amicable.--68.236.5.240 07:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paragraph edits 

message: The first paragraph states the population is 1,517,550. That is the figure according to the 2000 census, it appears. Also in the box on the right side of the page is a different figure, Population 1,470,151 as of 2004. My first reaction was that someone made a mistake while editing the article, so one or both of those numbers should probably be changed to be consistent. The government website for Philadelphia states that the population is '1.6 million' which I suppose they took they 2000 census number and rounded up.
I would suggest that a number around 1,500,000 or higher is probably most accurate. Especially considering this unfortunately titled NYTimes article which talks about how people are being priced out of NYC and discovering how Philly is a better place to live anyway. Dan 08:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The 1,517,550 figure is the 2000 census count. The 1,470,151 is the 2004 mid-year estimate. (Yes, Philadelphia city has a negative growth rate). The suburbs, however, are growing. Most large US city articles use 2004 data in the infobox and mention both 2000 and 2004 figures in the main text, I think. Polaron | Talk 13:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To maintain consistencey, the 2005 U.S. Census estimates (most recent) has been added into the intro and the infobox (in the addition to the figure that was already inserted in the "population history" box. The 2000 census figure (intro paragraph) was untouched for comparison purposes. The source of the 2005 figure is here. --Moreau36 23:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population inconsistency 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.sister-cities.org/
** In Oakland, California on Fri Jun 23 14:39:28 2006, HTTP Error: 
** In Oakland, California on Fri Jun 23 23:15:02 2006, HTTP Error: 
** In Peoria, Arizona on Tue Jun 27 20:37:50 2006, HTTP Error: 
** In Peoria, Arizona on Fri Jun 30 14:17:41 2006, HTTP Error: 
----maru   (talk)  contribs 19:16, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

message: I'm not sure what this should be, but 6 it isn't. Maybe it was, but if anyone edits Geographic references and adds another footnote the number will be wrong again. This needs a named rather than counted link somehow. -- SGBailey 14:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geographic References #6 

message: Should teams engaging in rugby or "rugby league" be listed here? The other teams here are all pro, a couple of which are minor-league. From what I can gather, rugby league in the US is only semi-pro. We do include minor-league pro teams (e.g., Phantoms), but should we include semi-pro teams of sports that do not yet have any major league in the US as well? There is a bit of an edit war going on here—it would be good to air it out with some discussion. I have to say, I'm inclined to think the rugbites need to make their case. OTOH, I'm also a bit intimidated, because, as the old bumpersticker said, "Rugby Players Eat Their Dead".--BillFlis 23:20, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: FWIW, I'm in full agreement that 1) the Rugby teams should not be listed here (but maybe at the a sports subpage), 2) that further discussion should take place here, and 3) I am intimidated by many Rugby players.  :-)  --CComMack (t•c) 05:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Hmm, your strident claims are making me skeptical. The "rugby league" article says that Huddersfield, England is where rugby league was founded. Has its home now moved to Philly? What are they playing in England now? Also, it seems that the rugby league teams in the US are only semi-professional, not professional as you claim. I'm hoping that you can provide a reference to the contrary. Wait: "your American football", you say? Where are you?--BillFlis 00:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rugby?