Talk:Soka Gakkai/Archive 2

message: Article said: "This culminated in the unprecedented and unilateral excommunication of the SGI and its 10 million members worldwide."
Problems:
#How was Soka Gakkai/SGI's excommunication "unprecedented"? Several organizations have been "excommunicated" in the past; given all the Soka Gakkai's provocations in the period up to the excommunication, it is also difficult to see how it was "unilateral."
#Except for those in Soka Gakkai or Soka Gakkai-back publications (such as Daisan Bummei), I find little evidence that NS excommunicated all SGI members. Indeed, NS was specific in excommunicating the organizations but not the general membership, and only Ikeda Daisaku and Akiya Einosuke (IIRC) were specifically removed from the NS believers roster.
Article also says: "Another group which has formed as result of a split from Soka Gakkai is I-Chinen-Sanzen. The lay organization owes its allegiance to Nichiren Shoshu."
#)What is this "I-Chinen-Sanzen" group? In any case, it is not the same as the Hokkeko, nor was Hokkeko formed as a result of "a split from Soka Gakkai": Hokkeko's existence predates that of Soka Gakkai by several hundred years.
Jim_Lockhart 07:50, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Excommunication

message: J1: So maybe I can provide a little more grist for your mill: Here in Japan, SG/SGI's official pronouncements on things to do with its critics and the actual behavior of its members in the street have always been widely divergent. Members are never directly encouraged to do anything socially unacceptable—word gets out using more suggestive means. This way, when someone gets caught SG can (and does) say with a straight face that the person was acting on his or her own.
:R: Once again, where's your source?
::J2: My primary source for much of this is personal experience and the personal experience of family, friends, and acquaintances; further afield, my source(s) encompass over 20 years.... Well, this part doesn't really matter, because for every hundred people I can find to back me up, you'd be able to find 200 Gakkai members who would negate it. As far as media and academic sources go, most of those I have are not in English, so I doubt you'd be able to check them even if you had access to them.
:::R: I am really saddened to hear these thngs. But, ONCE AGAIN, please name and cite the source. You don't need to worry whether or not I can read Japanese.
:::
::::J4: I inserted one source at the end of the article. I used it in working on the "Excommunication" section to ensure that I got the sequence and dates correct; however, it looks like it is, unfortunately, not available through the usual channels. If you can read Japanese (or have access to someone who can), I know it's available in Nichiren Shoshu temples—maybe you could slip in to buy a copy (or I could get one to you some other way). I will look around for other sources that will be easier to access and post them some time going forward.
:::::R:I'd like to get a hold of it. But why would I have to "sneak in?" What is that about? Anyway, maybe some of this is available through the library? Perhaps a university library with an Asian history section might have some of it...get me some names and I can look...Please do cite anything that you can find...
:::::I wonder, someone raised a question about the validity of using SGI pubs in an SGI article -- suggested that anything coming from them must be tainted or questionable. Yet the cite you source comes from the temple - is it possible there might be an agenda there, as well? I'm not one to ban something just because I don't like the author or the source, but I would read it with the same critical mind as I would anything else, seeking out outside sources, looking to see if what they say is what is happening in the real world, etc... 
:::::Out of everything said so far, I've heard a lot of trashing Ikeda and SGI, and I've heard alot of what SGI says about itself. But I've not heard much about what the temple really has to say for itself - what does it offer people? Are the people practicing with the temple actually happy? Are they gaining peace and benefit? Developing themselves, their compassion, their sense of empowerment? Are they engaed with helping to better the world? These are the things SGI talks about, and these are the things it does. These are the things it seeks to help people with, and this is what I see happening with people who practice with them. What does the temple stand for? What is happening for the people involved with it? Or maybe I just need to visit their article...
::::: At any rate, I'd like to see the sources, so please do include anything you can find...
::::J: I think the book I listed is probably not available in libraries (unless a librarian has gone out of his/her way to get it) and it's not listed by Amazon.co.jp. I know it's available in temples, since it's published by Taiseki-ji. You must have read my message before I re-edited it (after dinner <g>) because I changed "sneak" to "slip"—as in "sneak/slip into a cafe for a cup of coffee." No hidden meaning intended, so sorry for being a bit facetious in my usage. I should have just written "drop by."
::::As to your second paragraph: Please have a look at my responses (ones starting with J4) on this page under the headings "More agreement" and "Even more agreement" (clicking on this links ought take you to them). Anyhow, I'm not against including information from or using biased sources, so long as the bias can be balanced out elsewhere in the article. So far, you seem to be a pretty sincere and reasonable person, so I'd like to work with you to see if we can't incorporate both perspectives so the article will conform to the Wikipedia:NPOV ideal.
::::As for hearing about more about the temple and what it has to offer—if you haven't checked, I've worked quite a bit on the articles about Nichiren the person, Nichiren Buddhism (the general term for all schools and sects that claim roots in Nichiren's teachings), and Nichiren Shoshu. I've also developed the article on Taiseki-ji (and plan to do more when I have the time and energy) and initiated one on High Priest Nikken. I generally (as a matter of principle, more-or-less) don't touch the articles on SG/SGI (can't remember how I came to this one—I think I was following Gammadion after he posted some comments on one of the other talk pages) or the schools and sects I'm not familiar with, if not only because I don't want to get involved in psychologically taxing and fruitless editing wars.
::::The split between SG/SGI and NS, I think, should be handled in detail in a discrete article, with only passing reference and hyperlinks in the articles on SG/SGI and NS themselves. I welcome your thoughts on this. Sorry for any typos—this is on the fly. Jersey_Jim 15:26, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Grist for Gammadion's mill

message: (Inserted from before :Talk:Soka Gakkai International/Archive06#Scratching deeper
====A job for Magnum PI?====
R: And by the way " Sending in private investigators to find out who said what in a public discussion meeting? WHAT pray tell are you talking about???
:J2: I don't follow you on your final paragraph, so you must be confusing something someone else wrote with something of mine. I know nothing about "[s]ending in private investigators to find out who said what in a public discussion meeting." 
::Gammadion: It was something of mine, not Jim's. I was talking about discussion meetings held by SGI opened to the public. I wonder who in hell dissected my paragraph? *Raises hackles and shows teeth* Careless words are somethings said in public-attended meetings that could be considered criminal based on religious-equality laws. That's why I recommend that private investigators be sent in to record such illegals acts by senior leaders which reflects badly on SGI on the whole.Gammadion 01:33, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: J3: Thanks for the clarification. Re: "could be considered criminal based on religious-equality laws": What country are we talking about here? I know that some countries in S.E. Asia (I think Singapore, Malaysia, and Indonesia) have such laws. Could you explain? Those laws might even be worth a discrete article themselves. Jim_Lockhart 02:35, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: G2: Such laws in South East Asia are commonly classified under Internal Security Act(s). I do not understand your suggestion of letting the above mentioned law having a discrete article all by themselves. By the way, I am kind of busy now so I will try bring an example of the law. CiaoGammadion 02:23, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: J5: Ah ha, that's what I thought (about the laws). By discrete article, I meant a separate article about the laws themselves (not necessarily in any connection with the SGI article). If one doesn't already exist, it would likely consist of a description of the laws, when and why they were enacted, what effects they have had on their societies, and any pros and cons to them. With such an article available for readers to refer to, if you were to write something to the effect of "some of these activities potentially violate the Internal Security Laws of Country XXX for their potential to incite religious conflict and disrupt social cohesion". I have to get back to work, too… Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 07:15, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion about legality of methods in some countries

message: R: And by the way " Sending in private investigators to find out who said what in a public discussion meeting? WHAT pray tell are you talking about???
:J2: I don't follow you on your final paragraph, so you must be confusing something someone else wrote with something of mine. I know nothing about "[s]ending in private investigators to find out who said what in a public discussion meeting." 
::Gammadion: It was something of mine, not Jim's. I was talking about discussion meetings held by SGI opened to the public. I wonder who in hell dissected my paragraph? *Raises hackles and shows teeth* Careless words are somethings said in public-attended meetings that could be considered criminal based on religious-equality laws. That's why I recommend that private investigators be sent in to record such illegals acts by senior leaders which reflects badly on SGI on the whole.Gammadion 01:33, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: J3: Thanks for the clarification. Re: "could be considered criminal based on religious-equality laws": What country are we talking about here? I know that some countries in S.E. Asia (I think Singapore, Malaysia, and Indonesia) have such laws. Could you explain? Those laws might even be worth a discrete article themselves. Jim_Lockhart 02:35, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: G2: Such laws in South East Asia are commonly classified under Internal Security Act(s). I do not understand your suggestion of letting the above mentioned law having a discrete article all by themselves. By the way, I am kind of busy now so I will try bring an example of the law. CiaoGammadion 02:23, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: J5: Ah ha, that's what I thought (about the laws). By discrete article, I meant a separate article about the laws themselves (not necessarily in any connection with the SGI article). If one doesn't already exist, it would likely consist of a description of the laws, when and why they were enacted, what effects they have had on their societies, and any pros and cons to them. With such an article available for readers to refer to, if you were to write something to the effect of "some of these activities potentially violate the Internal Security Laws of Country XXX for their potential to incite religious conflict and disrupt social cohesion". I have to get back to work, too… Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 07:15, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: A job for Magnum PI?

message: :R:I guess one would have to accept that it was a part of something to accept that it had deviated from it. What I really would like to know is if the Writings of Nichiren Daishonin and the Lotus Sutra are different for Nichiren Shoshu? Because if they are the same, I understand why SGI went the way it did - there is no place for the kind of heirarchical temple priesthood type institution in the kind of world that SHakyamuni and Nichiren were describing. I frankly find it difficult to understand how anyone could both believe the WND and also believe in a priesthood. It seems like cognitive dissonance to me...
Gotta run, so have fun Jim_Lockhart 07:10, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Different interpretations of ''WND''

message: I have done some editing of History, Practice, and Excommunication sections, but the Doctrine and Criticism sections still need work (too tired to do it today, and other matters press). After that's all done, I will make another pass to remove redundacies, including redundant links (some concepts are linked more than once—bad style). If you have information to add or other suggestions, please make them so I can incorporate them in a consistent manner (or do it yourself). I suggest not deleting material that you merely do not like or agree with. Thanks to all involved, Jim_Lockhart 15:15, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The criticsm section could use some reworking too, it looks too much more like a apologetist section now. We could summarise the part on the cult of personality explaination. The unverifiable quote on SGI not being a buddhist organization is suspect too and should be removed. I hope someone can give me further input on my suggestion.Gammadion 01:12, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I was thinking the same, but it is a delicate area. And as Ruby will promptly (and rightly) point out, sources are needed. Also, you mention "religious equality laws," so I assume you're thinking of the situation in a certain country or countries; people (readers) outside those countries may not understand what is meant, so some explanation may be necessary. G'day, Jim_Lockhart 02:25, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Getting ready to rework the midsection 

message: I think this article needs a new introductory lead, and I've tried one (see below) to see if it would meet with participants' expectations. Be warned: there will be something for everyone to like and for everyone to hate <g>, so please be fair.
Once this is out of the way, then maybe we can tackle the body, which I think needs an organization plan or outline of some sort. I also wonder if Soka Gakkai and Soka Gakkai International do not warrant separate articles with cross references where the two organizations overlap. Other SGI subsidiary organizations—such as SGI-USA, SGI-UK—when big enough, might also warrant discrete articles.
This suggestion is a bit long as a lead-in, so let's see what we can do to pare it down without sacrificing any informational content. (One way to do this is to say something only once, which I have no necessarily done here.)
Here goes...
:Soka Gakkai International (創価学会インターナショナル) is the international umbrella organization for local Soka Gakkai organizations in over 190 countries. Founded at a function on Guam on January 26, 1975, as the International Buddhist League and later renamed Soka Gakkai International (SGI), it has over 12 million members, who practice a form of Nichiren Buddhism.  As its name suggests, the SGI was born as a sub organization of the Japan-based Soka Gakkai from which it later took over its current function as the international umbrella.  that developed as a response to the spread of the religion to other countries. 
:Soka Gakkai was originally formed as Sōka Kyōiku Gakkai (lit. "Value-Creation Education Society") in 1930, an organization whose goal was the reform of the then highly militaristic education system to one more humanistic in its aims. Its founders became convinced that the practice of Nichiren Buddhism could affect the change they sought to achieve. Following World War II, during its reconstruction, Sōka Kyōiku Gakkai became Soka Gakkai, an organization whose function was to provide support to followers of Nichiren Buddhism, particularly Nichiren Shoshu, with which it was affiliated.  Soka Gakkai grew rapidly during the post-war period due in large part to the efforts of its president, Josei Toda, and as a lay organization of the Nichiren Shoshu school of Japanese Buddhism. It gave birth to  supported the development of a number of subsidiary organizations in Japan, including a publishing arm, with a newspaper (Seikyo Shimbun) claiming 5 million daily subscribers, a political party, and a school system. It is strongly pacifist and has a decidedly cultural facet, yet, at least during its affiliation with the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood, has been known in the past for "strident conversion activities," (cite please) and was considered by some to be a tightly regimented organization.(cite please)
:As Japan's largest single religious group organization, Soka Gakkai has become a is now an  major important influence in the country's society and politics, as well as a focus of controversy: Though formally separate from the New Komeito Party, Soka Gakkai is perceived by many of the public as being the de facto controlling entity. Soka Gakkai promotes numerous good causes, yet the organization and its motivations are widely frequently mistrusted. As an organization, it donates generously to victims of natural disasters, and its members support each other in the most mundane and sublime of ways,( cite "Buddhists in America", among others.  Its membership donations go to wards building and supporting lavish (or cite this - ours, for example, is far from "lavish"!) activity centers to support the membership in their practice, provide meeting spaces, and act as organizational and operational centers. It is accused by some of the media, particularly in Japan, (cite sources) of being a vast money-making machine (cite or rephrase). Outside Japan, Soka Gakkai International promotes cultural exchange and peace initiatives, but has also been accused of being a cult, for example by the French government (cite) (NOTE: the French Government has a very broad definition of a cult -- Jehovah's Witness, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Christian Scientists, and the Universal Church of God also fit on their list, and though I personally might agree, at least in the case of Jehovah's Witness, I am not sure of the value in using them as a source for this complaint, unless you also explain France's system for defining cults and/or the fact that they include other religious organizations which here in the US are not necessarily considered to be "cults.") (see http://cftf.com/french/Les_Sectes_en_France/cults.html)
Detailed explanations of particular aspects and occurrences (I may have been a bit too specific here, too) should going into the body of the article, not the lead. I look forward to your input :). Best regards, Jersey_Jim 02:25, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Jim - I made some edits in the above introduction. Hope they help. I noticed there is still some tendency to mix SG and SGI together, so that might want to be clarified. So, I agree, I think individual articles might be necessary... I italicized my edits, and crossed out what I though was biased, repetitive, or whatever. I also thought there was a need to place some of the contents in context, and/or to provide citations to support certain points. I put in the one that I knew of...you may know of others...? Look forward to hearing your responses. Night! - Ruby --70.111.27.59 05:09, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggest new introductory lead