Talk:Front for the Advancement and Progress of Haïti

message: Trey Stone: several comments about your recent edits:
:1. You removed this paragraph in its entirety: 
::FRAPH was established by Emannuel "Toto" Constant, who went on the CIA payroll as an informant and spy in early 1992 (according to the Agency, this relation ended in mid-1994, but the following October the American Embassy in Haiti was openly acknowledging that Constant -- now a born-again democrat -- was on its payroll). According to Constant, shortly after Aristide’s ouster, Colonel Patrick Collins, a US Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), attache who was stationed in Haiti from 1989 to 1992, pressured him to organize a front that could balance the Aristide movement and do intelligence work against it (it is believed that members of FRAPH were working, and perhaps still are, for two social service agencies funded by the Agency for International Development, one of which maintains sensitive files on the movements of the Haitian poor). 
:The source for this information was given . Please justify this deletion. 
:2. You changed this:
::Allan Nairn revealed US government's role in establishing and funding 
:to this: 
::Allan Nairn raised questions about possible links between FRAPH and the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency and DIA. 
:If you read his original reports, he did not "raise questions", he asserted it was true.
:3. You added this paragraph: 
::Given the fact that the Clinton administration publicly supported Aristide to the point that he was granted asylum in the U.S. and was restored to the presidency in Haiti in 1994, such alleged links between the DIA and FRAPH are contradictory to administration policy and could be a case of unauthorized actions that went unnoticed by the executive branch. Another possibility could be a lack of credibility from Nairn's research, given the fact that his report relies on Constant as the one primary source.
:This is blatant editorializing. Unless you can attribute this POV to someone, with a citatation, I will delete it.
Thanks, -- Viajero 08:07, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: One more thing, you deleted a source I cited, saying "Blum however is a nut in the Chomsky mold" . I have a copy of Killing Hope here and the section on Haiti is solidly referenced (as is the book as a whole); he drew heavily on mainstream media reports (NYT, etc). It is clear that you don't agree with the politics of William Blum, but do you have any evidence that his scholarship is shoddy? Given the abundance of citations, it would be pretty easy for someone to discredit him if it was, but to the best of my knowledge no one has. -- Viajero 10:12, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: I see that Trey Stone (talk · contributions) (failing to hide behind an anon. IP address) is again trying to change articles on the bases of what he thinks makes sense, rather than on the basis of the evidence.  See Wikipedia:No original research. Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 11:22, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: i'm thankful that this article (some months ago I guess) came a long way from just a "U.S. supported FRAPH, period" POV stance, but I think it's too bloated. the problem is that journalists like Nairn have somewhat of an upper hand here because this sort of thing just isn't widely discussed outside of magazines like Z-Mag and The Nation (certainly not anywhere in the MSM, aside from that 60 Minutes deal,) so there's not a whole lot of sources for potential rebuttal. might rework it later... J. Parker Stone 9 July 2005 09:28 (UTC)
 
if we can, we should avoid using sources like Blum's... like Chomsky, his writings contain a lot of factual data, but they're laced with a lot of commentary and conclusions on alleged motives that are mostly backed up through his personal suspicion and loathing of U.S. foreign policy. i don't object to Nairn, because even though he's a partisan he did some investigation on this subject. blum may have done some research but that doesn't change the fact that his writings are halfway between a factual account and a diatribe. a right-wing rant against Che Guevara was removed on that page (though admittedly that is more of a screed than Blum's) because it didn't add much, and i don't think this is a very good contribution to the article either. if anything, we should reference the sources cited in the article, which are more well thought-out. J. Parker Stone 22:32, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Good article, still needs work

message: "antidemocratic forces such as..." We are talking about FRAPH, not any other group. Furthermore, we have already established that they are rapists and butchers, so this is redundant.
"U.S. backing for" -- As the quotes in this article make clear, possible CIA and DIA involvement in the group's inception has been investigated, but this does not equate to unambiguous "support." Just because the CIA doesn't like Marxist-leaning liberation theologians doesn't mean that alleged Clinton pressures on Aristide to move away from socialist policies = "fake" support for Aristide. Blum is a radical political commentator. His opinions should not be elevated to encyclopedic truth. J. Parker Stone 22:44, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Trey Stone: Please leave this article alone. Nothing you write above makes sense. You are trying to supress uncomfortable facts because they don't fit into your parochial worldview. William Blum, like Chomsky and McGhee, draw on mainstream media reports for their research, and their conclusions can easily be separated from their opinions. -- Viajero | Talk 09:45, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Viajero, most researchers draw on mainstream sources. What sets them apart are the conclusions they draw from such sources. I am not objecting to the Nairn investigation being put into this article. What I am objecting to is support for FRAPH being stated as if it is just that, done, over with. Nairn et al.'s arguments have to be compared to the fact that a) Clinton restored Aristide to power, b) the U.S. and UN funded a civilian police force (1994-96) to replace the military , and c) the Bush-41 administration condemned the coup and voted with the OAS to work toward economically isolating the junta. . if Nairn thinks this is all smoke and mirrors that's great, but these facts should not be diminished. J. Parker Stone 09:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: btw, i apologize if my "parochial worldview" inclines me to believe that the U.S. government is decent enough not to genuinely support a group of mass rapists and butchers. the idea that we have some obsessive need for control in Haiti is ludicrous considering it produces barely anything of value to us. J. Parker Stone 10:07, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah!  The idea that the United States would ever intervene in the affiars of a poor Carribiean nation is absurd!  It's never happened!  Descendall 09:52, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: *zzz* J. Parker Stone 09:54, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: recent edits

message: The intro uses quite strong words. Even tough they may be factually accurate, I´d rather see "brutalize and murder" as words quoted from specific stakeholders, not as coming from Wikipedia itself. For this reason, I label the intro as non-POV and kindly ask for some rewording. Cheers Doidimais Brasil 00:23, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
:You've made no case for the intro being PoV (I'm not sure what you mean by "stakeholders" though). --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 20:56, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the intro is POV. Some words, such as those pointed out by Doidimais Brazil are simply intended to provoke an emotional reaction. It is much like say "terrorist" does so in certain articles even though we may personally agree with the labeling.--Jersey Devil 01:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The intro 

message: I don't understand why the U.S. would even care about this lil island? Why would they want to over-trow an elected offcial if that's even true??--143.81.248.53 (talk) 07:47, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no shortage of quotes from US officials, in the administrations of Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II, as to why they wanted Aristide out. 50.74.192.11 (talk) 16:46, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Us involvement

message: *Removal of a Potentially Damaging DOMAIN-URL:
*Malware Domain: (EXPLOIT)
*hxxp://www.williambowles.info/
*https://www.virustotal.com/de/url/3f4dbe1047dacde8cdeb4d3f98ad3d611d1b1404cc0c7887610f32efd38d61e1/analysis/1373283876/
*Threat: JS/Exploit-Blacole.cw
*https://www.virustotal.com/de/file/724f5a794caab0893a48f5bc50294ccce3d99233f48be01c4202b1db43fc531a/analysis/1373306179/
*https://www.virustotal.com/de/file/d38be604ab749776f818d100003de7d36a28a051db6b579387e404b6744b35a6/analysis/1373305674/
*https://www.virustotal.com/de/file/eeab3b96c3fb7c420749ec3cc5788326150dcf631de7961b48991a945239d2be/analysis/1373305763/
*https://www.virustotal.com/de/file/712b06fc8641c685f89a50512f6d62ee6d64a3b9426350f783f6865e665ea253/analysis/1373305770/
*https://www.virustotal.com/de/file/63fab5670a5b1c0b11f21f752835d5ca0c2efdeac5a025239d2d8ff23360b3cf/analysis/1373306001/
*https://www.virustotal.com/de/file/172c12f0e56e8875896f459202c94b1c74557b3ec3621285fd15e6aaa57e3551/analysis/1373306095/
*REFERENCE: http://jsunpack.jeek.org/?report=a40619186e3f1c962744b1738c06e427ce47fc52
*SEE ALSO: http://quttera.com/detailed_report/www.williambowles.info
*3 HIDDEN LINKS FOUND: http://www.UnmaskParasites.com/security-report/?page=www.williambowles.info
--Gary Dee 18:22, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Malware Link Removal 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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