Talk:Municipalities of South Tyrol

message: As of now (20:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Stop. Before that, I would like to know how you counted this 62% majority against. Thanks.--Panarjedde 23:36, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Proposal D is the only one that uses double names. There are 4 users pro (Gryffindor, Fantasy, Giovanni Giove, Panarjedde), 8 users contra (Markussep, Septentrionalis, trialsanderrors, Supparluca, Olessi, Emptywords, Ajaxsmack, Red Zebra), and 1 unclear (Gene Nygaard). If I count Gene Nygaard as pro (but his remark "Should be all English" can be interpreted against double names as well), it's 38% (5/13) pro, and 62% contra. Markussep 19:31, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey result

message: This is an attempt to find consensus about a consistent and unambiguous way to name all municipalities of South Tyrol. It is a result of several failed move requests for Bozen-Bolzano. See Talk:Bozen-Bolzano for the previous discussions. Currently, all municipalities in South Tyrol have bi- or trilingual article titles, in German, Italian, and some also in Ladin. The reason for this is that South Tyrol is officially bilingual Italian and German, with certain areas where Ladin is also an official language. This has led to confusing titles such as Natz - Schabs-Naz - Sciaves. Moreover, it suggests (especially when the names are quite different like Olang-Valdaora) that they are two different places combined, rather than one place (like Castrop-Rauxel or Minneapolis-St. Paul). 
The proposal is to move all related articles to a single name. If they don't exist already, redirects will be made from the names in the other languages, and they will be mentioned in the first line of the articles. There are three suggested systems for this:   
    
A - all Italian (rationale: they're in Italy)   
    
B - all German (rationale: German speaking majority in South Tyrol)   
    
C - all in the language of the local majority (103 German, 5 Italian, 8 Ladin, based on the 2001 census). The Italian places are Bolzano, Bronzolo, Laives, Salorno and Vadena. The Ladin places are Badia, Corvara, La Val, Mareo, San Martin de Tor, S.Crestina Gherdëina, Sëlva and Urtijëi.
    
D - leave it like it is (German name-Italian name)
    
Exceptions should be made for places that have a single widely used name in English. Please give your opinion about the proposed systems below (sign with ~~~~), and if you think one of the related places has a single widely used name in English, write that under #Exceptions (with some proof). Markussep 18:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction

message: *Second preference. Markussep 18:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A (all Italian)

message: *Third preference. Markussep 18:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: B (all German)

message: *First preference. Markussep 18:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In the Switzerland articles, there are place names in the four official languages and in English, so why shouldn't it be possible to have more than one language for Italian places? MRB 16:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some examples?--Supparluca 16:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Examples: Lucerne, Geneva (English), Basel, Murten (German), Fribourg, Lausanne (French), Locarno, Bellinzona (Italian), Scuol, S-chanf (Romansh). Markussep 17:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: C (all local majority language)

message: *Oppose. Ambiguous and confusing. Markussep 18:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry if I repeat myself over and over and over again, but I think that the official name of Rome is Roma.--Supparluca 13:38, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: D (no change)

message: *Bolzano. 
**English usage over Bozen, as google suggests. Bozen gets 150,000 English results; Bolzano 900,000. I have seen Bolzano in discussions of purely German topics, like Kaufmann's Nietzsche.Septentrionalis 19:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Exceptions

message: Comments on "Awful" (now changed to "Ambiguous and confusing"): 
* Confusing: If you think reality is confusing, you can make things simple for simple minds. Don't put too much reality in Wikipedia, don't expect normal readers to understand what is written in Wikipedia. They are not used to think for themselfs. Is it that what you mean?
* Ambiguous: 
** You have redirects for both names, so in Articles you can use any of this names and it works fine. No need to use both names in articles.
** If the title uses both names, it is 100% Unaubiguous. 
* Awful: 
**In articles it is awful, so just use on of the two names. 
**The Article itself should be as close to reality as possible (NPOV), so when someone clicks on Bozen or Bolzano he should arrive at the REAL Name (2 names). 
Maybe you can explain what you exactly you mean with "Ambiguous and confusing". Thanks :-) Fantasy 11:11, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What I mean with confusing and ambiguous is stated in my introduction to the survey. Markussep 11:33, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I think the municipalities of Finland are a nice example of option C: all places with a Swedish majority have the Swedish name for article title, and all with a Finnish majority the Finnish name (with the name in the other language mentioned in the first line). As far as I could see there was no discussion about this, no moves back and forth. Markussep 17:47, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the case of Finland and Sweden fits, because Sweden never came and send in colonisers and supressed the Finnish language the way the Italian government under Mussolini did with the native German-speaking population. So it's nice how the Finnish and the Swedes were able to solve their issues, but this is quite different in South Tyrol considering the history. Gryffindor 20:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You really have your story biased Gryffindor.  There was oppression of the German-speaking population during the 20th century, this is without question.  You have to realize that this region has come to terms with that, and we live in peace.  For the best of me, I can't understand why you are on here doing things that provide us with nothing but bad feelings.  You have to also realize that during the 19th century when the region was controlled by Austria, the Italian-speakers were just as well oppressed.  There were the name changes of people, etc. blah blah blah.  The point is, this happened for literally centuries in this region.  We have finally reached a point where the PEOPLE can live in peace.  What is your issue trying to bring up the aggressor/victim thing here?  Did someone key your car while you were visiting or something? o_O If you know this area, you will learn to share and realize it is the mixture here that has made it so nice in the end of it all! Taalo 10:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Colonisation may not be the right term for both the Swedish control over Finland (13th century-18th century) and the Italian control over South Tyrol. My impression is that there isn't much of a struggle in South Tyrol nowadays, not like in the 1920s-1930s and 1960s. The official status of the three languages (like in Finland) is IMO a good example of the more relaxed situation. Markussep 09:08, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The situation is very relaxed in Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol as well. The only non-relaxed stuff I've seen is by a few users on here!  Go figure! Taalo 10:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awful (Ambiguous and confusing) 

message: As I write, there is a consensus against option D. Let us see if there is any agreement on which single name to use; fortunately, in most cases, this is binary. I am citing positions above as I understand them. Septentrionalis 18:22, version of 18 September 2006 (UTC)
===Bolzano, Brixen, Brenner===
I see nobody arguing for Bozen, Brennero, or Bressanone; Fantasy appears to be alone in preferring Botzen. Septentrionalis 18:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For me, all Italian or all German (so Bolzano, Brennero and Bressanone). Also consider that informations about speaking majorities aren't reliable.--Supparluca 20:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please explain and source the last comment. Markussep's census of speaking majorities is published by the provincial government; so it ought to be reasonably reliable unless a clear political interest can be proven. And if there is such an interest, what is it?  Septentrionalis 15:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not talking about "manipulations", I just think (I'm sure) that you can't have reliable data on something like speaking majority, or religion (you know, 98% of Italians are Catholic!). Furthermore, you have some minor privileges if you declare yourself German in South Tyrol.--Supparluca 14:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's doubtless some error; but are you suggesting that Mareo, which is recorded as 93% Ladin, or Villanders, 98% German, have a different plurality? If you are only contending for middle-sized errors, we could move more close cases into an intermediate category; but nothing is anywhere as near as Merano. Septentrionalis 19:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm suggesting that in Marebbe (2% Italian, 93% Ladin), 100% of the population can speak Italian, while in Fortezza (40% Italian, 1% Ladin), just 1% of the population can speak Ladin. Anyway, the point is that option C, like option D, isn't a serious solution.--Supparluca 16:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I have a problem with using a name that has been imposed by a colonising power on the local population. I think the case of Ayers Rock, now known again under the original name Uluru is a case in point. Or how would Italian-speakers feel if someone came from outside and told them to start using different names simply because their country has been annexed? Gryffindor 20:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, history is full of this sort of things. London was under the Roman Empire some time ago, and consequently it is named Londinium in the Latin wikipedia. There's an analogous situation with the cities in South Tyrol: the German wikipedia can use (has to use, according to the naming conventions) the German names. Re your question, the people of your example would continue to use the Italian name while speaking in Italian, I don't see any connection with the name used in the English wikipedia.--Supparluca 13:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't think it's relevant what languages the inhabitants speak as second language. In absence of a common English name, and with three different official names, I suppose the local name (Ladin in this case) is the most relevant. It works for Finnish municipalities. Markussep 09:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Another thing: there's also Brixen im Thale in Austria, so Brixen would have to be disambiguated, e.g. Brixen, Italy. Markussep 09:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Well if you want to go by linguistic affiliation, this one would have to be at "Meran" if it's 51% German speaking. Otherwise this whole new policy is going to be full of holes and discrepancies. Gryffindor 19:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Why should it be Merano if the majority is German-speaking? Gryffindor 20:48, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What is your problem with this region Gryffindor?  The name should be listed as Merano-Meran.  End of story.  There is no English name per se.  Just drop this movement of yours, you disrespect MY region. Taalo 21:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Because it seems to be the English language name for the city. In the same way, we say Prague and Vienna, not Praha or Wien. --Asteriontalk 20:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The "English" language name? You mean the Italian probably. Gryffindor 19:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that Asterion means, and I know I do, the English name, the name commonly used in English prose; just as the English name of Rome is Rome and the English name of Paris is Paris. Septentrionalis 21:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree on everything. --Σω 07:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Which single name?

message: I see nobody arguing for Bozen, Brennero, or Bressanone; Fantasy appears to be alone in preferring Botzen. Septentrionalis 18:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For me, all Italian or all German (so Bolzano, Brennero and Bressanone). Also consider that informations about speaking majorities aren't reliable.--Supparluca 20:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please explain and source the last comment. Markussep's census of speaking majorities is published by the provincial government; so it ought to be reasonably reliable unless a clear political interest can be proven. And if there is such an interest, what is it?  Septentrionalis 15:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not talking about "manipulations", I just think (I'm sure) that you can't have reliable data on something like speaking majority, or religion (you know, 98% of Italians are Catholic!). Furthermore, you have some minor privileges if you declare yourself German in South Tyrol.--Supparluca 14:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's doubtless some error; but are you suggesting that Mareo, which is recorded as 93% Ladin, or Villanders, 98% German, have a different plurality? If you are only contending for middle-sized errors, we could move more close cases into an intermediate category; but nothing is anywhere as near as Merano. Septentrionalis 19:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm suggesting that in Marebbe (2% Italian, 93% Ladin), 100% of the population can speak Italian, while in Fortezza (40% Italian, 1% Ladin), just 1% of the population can speak Ladin. Anyway, the point is that option C, like option D, isn't a serious solution.--Supparluca 16:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I have a problem with using a name that has been imposed by a colonising power on the local population. I think the case of Ayers Rock, now known again under the original name Uluru is a case in point. Or how would Italian-speakers feel if someone came from outside and told them to start using different names simply because their country has been annexed? Gryffindor 20:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, history is full of this sort of things. London was under the Roman Empire some time ago, and consequently it is named Londinium in the Latin wikipedia. There's an analogous situation with the cities in South Tyrol: the German wikipedia can use (has to use, according to the naming conventions) the German names. Re your question, the people of your example would continue to use the Italian name while speaking in Italian, I don't see any connection with the name used in the English wikipedia.--Supparluca 13:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't think it's relevant what languages the inhabitants speak as second language. In absence of a common English name, and with three different official names, I suppose the local name (Ladin in this case) is the most relevant. It works for Finnish municipalities. Markussep 09:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Another thing: there's also Brixen im Thale in Austria, so Brixen would have to be disambiguated, e.g. Brixen, Italy. Markussep 09:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bolzano, Brixen, Brenner

message: *Google: 858,000 English hits for Merano without Meran; 326,000 for Meran without Merano. Meran appears also to be ambiguous with Hotel Meran in Prague, the Meran variation of the Semi-Slav Defense in chess, and a Kurdish proper name. Two of these are presumably named after Meran, but one of them testifies to Czech usage, not English. I see no correspionding confusion for Merano.
*Linguistic affiliation: 51% German by the census. 
*Survey: no specific comments on the subject, so far.
:Well if you want to go by linguistic affiliation, this one would have to be at "Meran" if it's 51% German speaking. Otherwise this whole new policy is going to be full of holes and discrepancies. Gryffindor 19:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why should it be Merano if the majority is German-speaking? Gryffindor 20:48, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What is your problem with this region Gryffindor?  The name should be listed as Merano-Meran.  End of story.  There is no English name per se.  Just drop this movement of yours, you disrespect MY region. Taalo 21:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Because it seems to be the English language name for the city. In the same way, we say Prague and Vienna, not Praha or Wien. --Asteriontalk 20:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The "English" language name? You mean the Italian probably. Gryffindor 19:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that Asterion means, and I know I do, the English name, the name commonly used in English prose; just as the English name of Rome is Rome and the English name of Paris is Paris. Septentrionalis 21:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Meran(o)

message: These are the clearly German-majority communes. I use Villanders, again, because it is hard to find one of these which is not ambiguated. 
*Google: Villandro:291, Villanders: 253. Again, some of the Villanders results are German pages.
*Census: 98% German-affiliated, which is not uncommon; all of these are above 59%
*Survey
**Italian (A): Supparluca, Olessi, Emptywords
**German (B,C): Markussep, Septentrionalis, Gryffindor, Aquilina, Asterion, trials and errors. 
I hope this clarifies matters; have I misrepresented any opinion, or does anyone want to change? (I am genuinely unsure of Gene Nygaard's position on this; does he simply want whatever single name we use to be without diacritics?) Septentrionalis 18:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree on everything. --Σω 07:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: All others

message: Consider peeking at the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names) about the proposed naming guideline. --Lysytalk 16:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming conventions (geographic names) 

message: This is not a proper name for the province. The proper name is Bolzano (Bozen) - with "Bolzano" being the given Italian name (which is verified through references below and many users who actually live there), and with "Bozen" the alternate name - give with respect. References include: <BR>
http://www.statoids.com/uit.html<BR>
http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gmap&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-108&srt=npan&col=aohdq<BR>
http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gcis&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-108&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=x&geo=-1956<BR>
http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gpro&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-1956&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=x&geo=491419135<BR>
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Italy_Autonomous_regions.htm<BR>
<BR>
The region is "Trentino-Alto Adige" (alternate name "Sudtirol"), and the province is "Bolzano" (alternate name "Bozen"), and the town is "Bolzano" (although the Italians list it as "Bolzano-Bozen" for the dual-names method). That is INDISPUTABLE and solves this. Rarelibra 20:57, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: South Tyrol, the name

message: Why is there even all this voting on here about German name, Italian name, using both, etc.  The region has already decided this for all of us.  What you all are doing almost amounts to Original Research.  What is done in the Province of Bolzano/Bozen, is both names are used: Italian name-German name.  On all the road signs, for example, you see Bolzano-Bozen, Brennero-Brenner, Merano-Meran.  It doesn't matter what the majority language speakers are of that town.  It doesn't change annually from the number of babies born.  I mean, not to offend anyone, but this whole discussion of how to do things is almost crazy. :)  This is a mixed Italian-German region of Italy, the names of the towns are as I just posted.  Stop trying to come up with guidelines out of thin air.  Respect both groups in Bolzano/Bozen which make this province and region so wonderful.  It is Roman, it is Italian, it is German.  Full stop. Taalo 03:55, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we follow this rationale, we have to move a lot of Belgian, Luxembourgish, Swiss, Canadian, Spanish (Catalonian, Galician, Basque, ..), Dutch (Frisian), German (Sorbian, Danish) and British (Welsh, Gaelic, Irish) names to double, triple or quadruple names as well. Don't you see that's ridiculous? I can give you plenty of examples of places with road signs in two or three languages, but they won't have all those names in their article titles. Bolzano is an official name for the town, so is Bozen. Bolzano-Bozen is not one name, it's two combined. All alternative names are given in the first line, and there are redirects. For the zillionth time: this has nothing to do with politics, or respect for minorities. Show me one encyclopedia that has double names for article titles. BTW have you read Wikipedia:No original research? I don't see how that applies here. Markussep 19:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Every region has different rules: in Quebec, every place has one official name: Trois-Rivières, Quebec  (not Three Rivers), Thetford Mines, Kingsey Falls, Quebec etc. This also holds for New Brunswick, where English and French are both official languages: St. George, New Brunswick, but Saint-Léonard, New Brunswick. In Switzerland, officially blingual places with two names are Brienz/Brinzauls and Biel/Bienne (with a slash in the article name!). In Catalonia only Catalan names are official. In Belgium, only the Municipalities of the Brussels-Capital Region have two names.   Andreas   (T) 20:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just visited the homepage of Biel/Bienne, interesting. It's not so easy to find out what's the official name, you're probably right, but the double name is not used all the time. For instance, you won't find "Bienne" on the German pages, or "Biel" on the French pages. "Biel" is used predominantly on the English pages, and once "Biel/Bienne". I think I'd prefer the article name to be Biel (Britannica also uses Biel) rather than Biel/Bienne. About Belgium, I'm not sure whether the municipalities with linguistic facilities have more than one official name, Brussels Capital Region indeed 2 official names. But the question here is what should be the name of the wikipedia article, and that's not necessarily the official name(s). Markussep 16:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: Many of the Italian names in South Tyrol were literally invened by Ettore Tolomei, although others like Bolazano are indeed pre-Tolomei names. This is explained in further detail in Prontuario dei nomi locali dell'Alto Adige and should be discussed at Talk page.  Andreas  (T) 22:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you explain, by the way, which names were invented? I know of a few in the very North East tip of BZ, but it was really just a few. Icsunonove 17:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Invented names

message: All the articles about the municipalities of the provinces of Italy are named "Communes of the province of [English name of the capital city]", so the title of this article should be "Communes of the province of Bolzano", otherwise it's POV.--Supparluca 07:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Explanation requested by AndreasJS

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Province of Bolzano-Bozen which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RM bot 15:31, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Move discussion in progress

message: A discussion regarding how to disambiguate place names in South Tyrol is found here. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 21:11, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambiguation of place names

message: A discussion regarding pros and cons of using Ladin place names is found here. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 21:11, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Ladin place names