Talk:Waterboarding/Archive 2

message: archiving, the RFC link call appears to be long down, if you want a new open, open one please.
What has been disputed is the first line of the article: "Waterboarding is a form of torture[1] also known as water torture." The source for this is: letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez., more than 100 U.S. law professors stated unequivocally that waterboarding is torture, and is a criminal felony punishable under the U.S. federal criminal code. See also the definition given by the United Nations Convention Against Torture.06:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC 

message: *I believe that the first sentence is not neutral because of the fact that the article goes on to state that the CIA, Bush, Cheney, and other prominent politicians do not believe waterboarding to be a form of torture. I believe that neutrality is violated as the first sentence states that "waterboarding is torture" as fact, because it then taints the remainder of the article. Anyone who believes the opposite, such as President Bush, Vice President Cheney, the CIA,  Condoleezza Rice, Rudy Giuliani, political commentators, and millions of conservatives have their viewpoint belittled by the article's first sentence. I do not believe that their viewpoint represents a tiny minority. And nobody has proven that it is even a minority viewpoint either. I think this viewpoint must be taken into account in the first sentence. Because otherwise, by stating that waterboarding is, unequivocally, torture, I believe that the article violates this piece of Wikipedia policy: it is important to also include the facts on which competing opinions are based since this helps a reader evaluate the credibility of the competing viewpoints. This should be done without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. Several attempts to reword the first sentence to one that states that there have been two sides to this controversial issue, such as these here  have been reverted. Further, I would like to add that I do not believe that the cited source is sufficent to justify the statement that waterboarding = torture. One hundred U.S. attorneys wrote a letter to Alberto Gonzales stating that they believed waterboarding was torture. Since many prominent politicians do not believe waterboarding to be torture, it stands to reason that we could also find 100 U.S. attorneys who believe the opposite. This is a misuse of statistics.  As for the other piece of that source, the UN definition of torture, nowhere does it explicitly state that waterboarding is torture. The definition is broad, but as I have stated above, many prominent people believe that waterboarding is not torture. And they probably believe this because of waterboarding's brevity and its supposed lack of bodily harm...anyways, the point is that it's open to interpretation and is being interpreted in dual ways by large enough groups of people to warrant that the article not take sides. Again, this is and will be a very controversial article; it is hardly the place of Wikipedia to end the controversy. |3 E |_  |_ 0 VV E |) 06:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Statements by editors involved in dispute

message: *The lead needs to explain both points of view.  The opinion of 100 lawyers, given the literally thousands, and thousands of lawyers in the United States, not to mention internationally, is not sufficient to support such a controversial statement.  The UN reference is a red herring, since it too says nothing about waterboarding, and is meant for the reader to make inferences; that's not a source.  --Haemo 06:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Outside View

message: And I just pulled up the US Justice Dept's view on what constitutes torture here |3 E |_  |_ 0 VV E |) 23:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure it's not in the link itself. You have to click on the link to read where it says that these people don't believe it's torture.|3 E |_  |_ 0 VV E |) 00:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

text: WRONG CATEGORY why are you complaing about Bmedley's edit! Anyway, it does not state it is not torture - it references a withdrawn memo - which IS DISCUSSED AT LENGTH in the article's body. Not to mention undue weight - a practitioner saying its ok. see talk, read the article, and keep your edits in the appropriate category. Unless you want others to start moving your talk and sorting out the disparate mess of it into the correct categories? 24.7.91.244 00:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: DOJ's view

message: We recraft the RfC (which I agree on doing!) to a statement we both agree on - and then declutter by mutually agreeing to wipe this entire category (which is just us arguing alone) from talk. There's very little we can agree on, but I suspect that is one thing. I can't create a new consensus on the article with you and the other editors as teh views are wildly divergent with yours - but we can have a consensus on just this RfC matter. 24.7.91.244 00:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: one idea - feel free to help. Editors disagree strongly on whether waterboarding is torture, and what constitutes a source in this case, we would greatly welcome outside views, and of course contributors. 24.7.91.244 00:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest the first line simply state "Waterboarding is a controversial interrogation technique"
--143.166.226.58 17:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually, I changed my mind. I removed the broad term 'many conservatives' from the sentence since it is not the best term possible. Afterall, I'm an independent and I don't view waterboading as torture. The debate clearly has two sides to it and to characterize the proponents as being only conservative would not be as accurate as the reality.|3 E |_  |_ 0 VV E |) 03:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not neutral at all -  - it is a continuation of the argument on that page - editing. Your personal political affiliations should be irrelevant to your editing. 24.7.91.244 23:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

text: We're talking about broad groups. Individuals, especially anonymous ones online, don't count.--Chaser - T 05:35, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion 

message: Link 
<B>Bush bans torture from CIA questioning
US prez puts end to CIA torture</B>
link
"Officials would not provide any details on specific interrogation techniques that the CIA may use under the new order. In the past, its methods are believed to have included sleep deprivation and disorientation, exposing prisoners to uncomfortable cold or heat for long periods, stress positions and - most controversially - the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding." Bmedley Sutler 08:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I should emphasize that nobody knows if this includes waterboarding, so let's not take this to assume that it's the case or that they classify it as torture. Actually, I doubt this is the case. I wouldn't mind this information being in the article somehow, as long as the context is that nobody knows if this includes waterboarding or not.|3 E |_  |_ 0 VV E |) 18:09, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with both of you. It's in the article now, and Human Rights Watch's statement that the real answers lie in the classified document is prominently featured at the end of the document.--Chaser - T 05:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headline: US prez puts end to CIA torture 

message: I'm just starting to read it now:
<B>Rorschach and Awe</B>
"America's coercive interrogation methods were reverse-engineered by two C.I.A. psychologists who had spent their careers training U.S. soldiers to endure Communist-style torture techniques. The spread of these tactics was fueled by a myth about a critical "black site" operation." by Katherine Eban VF.COM EXCLUSIVE July 17, 20 Bmedley Sutler 20:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. On page two, an air force psychologist says about experiencing waterboarding: "terrifying" and "you go into an oxygen panic" and implied that he felt real fear of being killed. Also, on page 4 the article indicates Rumsfeld vetoed the idea when it came across his desk. I didn't see any other relevant bits.--Chaser - T 05:30, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Important Source 

message: An indirect sidebar - As a very active Scuba diver, I suspect I have an idea what it is like (at a much lower intensity), if you are very low on air - but not out - or if you are overexerting at significant depth, your regulator appears not be delivering enough air flow (overexerting) or isn't (low pressure) - it is a terrifying experience. Not the implications (no air), but the feeling of panic and the physical pain as you try and pull more. In the case of overexertion, this panic causes the body to try and pull a vastly faster air flow rate, which makes the situation worse and worse in a vicious circle. In a low air situation, obviously it depletes to zero far faster than otherwise. Divers are thought to STOP. THINK. SLOWDOWN. I encourage you to speak to any diver friends you have... it is horrific. I don't state this for the article's use, just as an interesting aside for editors trying to understand why people refer to a wet rag as torture. Non divers don't really have much exposure to the concept of consumption rates - and how wildly they vary with exertion, stress, panic etc, they can alter many fold. 24.7.91.244 06:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Another thing I learned when I started diving that really surprised me was what triggers the impulse to breathe? it is not needing Oxygen at all. Its actually a chemical measurement of the CO2 content in vessels in/at the lung. The body breathes when the CO2 level rises, it has no means of registering Oxygen content. With a wet rag on the mouth, I would say (via OR) that the body's inability to rid itself of CO2 is what drives the terror and gag reflexes, and causes the body to demand oxygen much sooner than normally, and much more violently. A non diver, or non-medic probably wouldn't get the CIA source saying the average for agents in training is 14s. It truly is an exquisite and vicious torture, and though reasons not generally understood by the layperson, is a lot more than a wet rag or a dunk, just as sea sickness is a sometimes severe physical problem caused by the mind and body thinking the whole world is moving and they are not. As with many things, there is a lot more than meets the eye. 24.7.91.244 06:38, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oxygen Panic, Scuba Analogy 

message: This page is even slowing Firefox, an experienced archivist who knows how to archive correctly, without starting a row, is needed here. Thx 24.7.91.244 10:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wanted - experienced archivist for Talk 

message: Since Bellowed asked, I want to discuss this here. I actually really like User:ArnoldReinhold's new intro. Instead of getting bogged down in subjective definitions, we open the article with indisputable fact. --Eyrian 23:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My big problem with it was that it was far, far too specific. Articles should always begin with the lead being more genreral and then move to the more specific. I'm sure there's a recommendation on formatting Wikipedia articles which supports this line of reasoning; afterall, this is a general rule amongst all academic papers. The reason we need such a progressive movement from broad to specific, is that it's far too difficult to cram everything into the lead sentence and some very important specifics are left out. Like interrogation. And this can make the sentence un-neutral: there was no indication from that sentence that waterboarding is used to obtain information. Since it contained nothing about its use in interrogation, we only had a partial description of what happens in waterboarding; partial, because it contained no information about its use in interrogation. In that light, AR's lead was last week's sentence in a new form. Becuase it contained descriptions of torture and indicated nothing about the reasoning or circumstances when using such methods, we were back to last week when we had: waterboarding is torture, only in a new form. |3 E |_  |_ 0 VV E |) 00:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, what's not indisputable about the first sentence? There are two undisputable sides, aferall--the Executive Branch and its critics.|3 E |_  |_ 0 VV E |) 00:43, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, I agree that the intro should be general, but I simply don't see a way to make that happen in a way that addresses both sides. I think there is a legitimate concern over the use of "enhanced interrogation technique", and I'd really rather avoid classification in the first few sentences. The lead still contains all the same info about the ways it is used, just presented in a way that I think is more neutral. --Eyrian 02:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Weasel Words. Weasel sentence. Doublespeak, and that wonderful phrase from Edward Heath, being economical with the truth are how I would describe it to be honest. And there are not two disputing sides of note, the executive branch is not saying anything about the matter. And why since this all blew up the US forces had all personnel in Cuba remove any personally identifying marks. Though were too late - a book by an former victim is currently being translated to US English for release late winter with names. There's no trace of usable information saying the Executive thinks it is not torture - there's a lot of circumstantial (and not yet usable) clues that it DOES think it is torture. Please do not try and present it as two sides, or at least help us to understand where you are coming from with sources. With due deference to WP:OWN, I have seen Arnold editing here for a long time, and providing constructive edits on the subject matter for a long time, I do not see him as engaging in flagrant violations of concensus - and this can be backed up by the fact that he did not come blasting into to the edit war on talk recently. Though a loaded phrase in the current context, with AGR I assume good faith editing. 24.7.91.244 02:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New intro 

message: Despite my sincere efforts to de-escalate, after I went to far in the fighting - Pipe Three E Pipe Underscore Pipe Underscore V V E PIPE Bracket has shown no interest in either the olive branch, nor my suggestion of a time out for both of us. The reason for my ANI proposal was simple, should just one of us bow out it will further POV. Accordingly I have reverted the edits of Bellowed, which I do not agree with. The fact that this article is again drifting back to its pre-Bellowed status, with zero involvement from me, tends to show that consensus remains strongly against the direction Bellowed keeps trying to take it. I do appreciate and welcome other views - which is why we have an RfC, and have I been trying to take them on board in my editing behaviour - and not editing at times for the same reason - rational and helpful direction from outsiders, and Chaser; however I feel I had to revert Bellowed as the use of politically correct doublespeak and weasel words were coming back in. This really proves my point about consensus.. Even 2 days ago when I was grudgingly editing away from the established article trying to build consensus, I was being reverted back to straight torture by multiple hit and run edits (US and Germany). 24.7.91.244 02:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I still intend to try and stay away, and will not be actively editing this for a bit, with the exception of undoing major damage - this does not mean I intend to revert him everywhere - I don't I need to cool a bit, therefore I request that other interested editors spell me for a while as this has been exhausting. 24.7.91.244 02:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Either way, please be careful and observe my unrelated copyediting. If you want to undo POV work of another person, please do not use broad reverts to roll back the article to a version that predates my work. Instead, manually edit the portions that you want to work with. My edits have nothing to do with the POV issue that you are dealing with. Kanodin 03:07, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep - sorry, I have been watching it in awe, you are honestly scaring me! Thank you! Aside from the terrifyingly good command of the language it has been admirable how you just worked away quietly, with rocks and mud flying all around you. 24.7.91.244 03:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Sorry, I edited it back to Arnold's last post, later than your last work (I think?) 24.7.91.244 03:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert of Bellowed 7/24/7 UTC

message: I removed the Cheney 'dunking' part from the intro. The WH specifically denied that Cheney was talking about Waterboarding, so it doesn't belong in the intro. I think there should be a whole section on this interview, what he said, and then the WH 'spin' trying to claim he meant otherwise. Bmedley Sutler 19:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed  Cheney from intro 

message: Can the RFC be closed now? Eiler7 17:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess. 24.7.91.244 10:58, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFC still there 

message: First, stating that it "IS USED" is inaccurate...it's not always used for punishment, for instance. Therefore, phrasing it that way is a weasel word. Second, let's back off all the adjectives, like severe, and merely express the facts. |3 E |_  |_ 0 VV E |) 14:59, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is used for gathering information and punishing unwilling victims. If it isn't severe nobody will be intimidated.Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 15:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree, merely express the facts - Like Waterboarding is a form of torture used to... 24.7.91.244 10:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: It is used for that; however not in all cases. The CIA never uses it to punish or intimidate. Therefore, stating that it IS used for this purpose implies that it is done so in all cases. We're not going to hold the US to the standards of the Cambodian govt. and the current edit does just that.|3 E |_  |_ 0 VV E |) 18:08, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong again. --Eleemosynary 22:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

text: How about "waterboarding is used... or intimidate". I don't think it's always used to punish people, so a disjunction is appropriate. As to a "severe" gag reflex, I don't see any sources indicating that. They do indicate that waterboarding induces a severe fear of drowning to the point of psychological trauma.--Chaser - T 00:19, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The sentence in question lists possible purposes and they tend to overlap. Someone who is subjected to waterboarding for interrogation is likely to be intimidated as well, as are others who know what has happened. So "and" is appropriate. Also, when I floss my rear molars, it sometimes produces a gag reflex. All the sources seem to agree that waterboarding produces a gag reflex causing fear of imminent death. If that doesn't justify the adjective "severe," what would? Here is a source that uses the phrase "uncontrollable gag reflex":  --agr 01:57, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  In any event, "is used" uses the passive voice. It fails to acknowledge that "someone" does the waterboarding. How about: "Historically, individuals used waterboarding for..."? Separate the various options with "or" in order to convey that people use waterboarding for differing purposes. "Or" introduces a logical disjunction, which does not prevent a person from using waterboarding for two or more purposes simultaneously. Some people use it to interrogate, to intimidate; or to punish. As a compromise, perhaps we should do away with the "purposes" statement altogether, or break up the purposes into individual sentences to avoid the "and/or" controversy. —Kanodin 02:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, please read the WP:3RR policy!  I believe some individuals are already in violation!.  Second of all, I have revert the article to .|3 E |_  |_ 0 VV E |) edition.  This does not mean I agree with this version, but it is the least WP:POV piece.  Please discuss changes on this page, than insert once a consensus is reached.  Thank you. Shoessss |  Chat   03:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I didn't see the version you reverted to being discussed here either. I disagree with Bellowed assertion that it is a weasel word. Some people will not be happy until waterboarding is downgraded to tickling, and I am not willing to see that Politically motivated or politically correct editing further damage this article with revisionism.  24.7.91.244 09:27, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This tactic employed the use of violent force and the inducement of terror (Terrorism) to obtain a confession or information. The use of the word COERCE is entirely appropriate as a minimum. I think ideally it should be stronger, obtaining confessions by the use of torture. This is not POV, it is incredibly well documented cited and sourced. There is not one iota of supporting fact to the contrary in fact. As we have hashed out over and over ad infinitum, because something casts a party, the torturers or a regime behind them, in a bad light does not make it unfairly biased against them, and POV. 24.7.91.244 09:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: If someone wishes to continue to insert gross POV by toning down well documented fact, then editors like me will push the other way and bring this back to the original Waterboarding is a form of torture state that has survived consensus for a long time. After a rather nasty fight, an extremely delicate balance was achieved, and we all backed down - but if someone wishes to re-enter the stage POV pushing, then it is reasonable to expect the rest of us to work to prevent the POVing of the article. Additionally, as the row died down, a rather brilliant copy editor came in - if we go back to the see-saw edit war, all that work will be lost. Before weighing in on a side that wants to dispute the very delicately balanced apple cart achieved recently, you should look back at recent history (1 month) and see what it's going to start up again. Thank You. 24.7.91.244 09:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think you may have missed something. There was an edit war over the last two days, resulting in a week block for Eleemonsynary, and now the consensus directly above seems not to favor the version you reverted to. I'm not sure the version that I just reverted to is perfect, but it does not contain original research, such as "severe". Are there any sources for using the adjective severe? I don't think that there are. - Crockspot 12:07, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Pretty minor spat compared to..., but yes, I didn't realize the level of it (3RR). I'd welcome you and others to go into the severe issue, I won't edit that as a main protagonist, though I suspect you may be right. As to Coerce, I really think it belongs - severe not so - inappropriate adjective per Chaser I agree. So in summary, I agree there seems to be a consensus against severe, but certainly not on the issue of removing coercion. 24.7.91.244 12:16, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Eleemonsynary got blocked for a different article, though I assume the 3RR here also counted to it as insinuated by the blocking editor. Looks like he went for 1,000,000RR there :/ 24.7.91.244 12:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  My mistake. So many edit wars to keep track of. I think a version somewhere between the two is acceptable. I don't have a particular problem with "coerce". - Crockspot 12:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  He would have been gotten here anyway (3RR) as I suspect Chaser will not be so forgiving if we all go nuclear again. Severe Make it so, I have to watch myself for WP:OWN so won't inject myself everywhere I want to ;-) 24.7.91.244 12:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK, I added "coerce", and adjusted for grammar. Maybe this compromise will satisfy everyone. - Crockspot 12:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm satisfied. I'd also be OK with "severe" in light of the source above.--Chaser - T 17:13, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm satisfied with the current version as well.|3 E |_  |_ 0 VV E |) 03:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weasel Words 

message: Why is this example nothing like waterboarding? —Kanodin 16:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agents of the Dutch East India Company used a form of waterboarding during the Amboyna Massacre in 1623. At that time, it consisted of wrapping cloth around a victim's head, after which the torturers "poured the water softly upon his head until the cloth was full, up to the mouth and nostrils, and somewhat higher, so that he could not draw breath but he must suck in all the water." [34] In one case, the torturer applied water three or four times successively until the victim's "body was swollen twice or thrice as big as before, his cheeks like great bladders, and his eyes staring and strutting out beyond his forehead." "
It doesn't seem to me that this is anything like waterboarding as described in the article. According to the first paragraph, the simplest definition of "waterboarding" is "immobilizing an individual and pouring water over his or her face to simulate drowning." But the DEIC's torture doesn't seem to have been geared towards simulating drowning; while it involved pouring water over the victim's head, this seems to have been primarily a way of forcing the water into his body. Slightly more in-depth, waterboarding "produces a gag reflex, making the subject believe his or her death is imminent while ideally not causing permanent physical damage." Again, the DEIC's torture doesn't seem to have endeavored to do either one of those. It forced (painfully) water into the victim's body, which is much different than just simulating drowning. Moreover, this was actual physical damage, not just psychological: the victim would become bloated (horrifically), which I'm certain caused either lasting damage or death. No? Korossyl 05:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good to me! Korossyl 01:23, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for pointing out the water cure article, which makes it clear for me. I agree with the "precursor" wording. —Kanodin 06:49, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Agents of the [[Dutch East India Company]] example 

message: In light of all the good info on waterboarding and KSM in this month's New Yorker, I added it in, but created a KSM section to contain it. I also moved the Cheney interview to that section. We will probably need to upgrade the ref tags to fact tags...I'll do that whenever I have some more time.|3 E |_  |_ 0 VV E |) 16:53, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: KSM SECTION

message: This statement has been inserted in the description of KSM's treatment, and the VP's approval of said treatment: "Captured along with Mohammed, was a letter from bin Laden,[34] which led officials to think that he knew where the Al Qaeda founder was hiding.[35]" This seems to be nothing more than a statment inserted as if to say 'so it's ok, because we might have found ObL.' Yes, a letter does seem to have been found, and duly footnoted. But this is a statement of fact that has no bearing at all on waterboarding per se; the statement has been inserted to argue that waterboarding KSL was ok. Not the same thing. In other words, how does this sentence further the description of waterboarding in this article? I'm removing it unless there is a good NPOV reason to keep it. I'll give it a few days. Morgaledh 19:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to disagree about total removal of the letter fact. It was captured along with KSM before he was waterboarded--obviously there's a connection there. Even the New Yorker-- which ran an anti "enhanced interrogation" piece back in August-- noted that before KSM was subjected to interrogation, the letter was found and speculated that it was the reason for his more brutal interrogation. So even though it was a negative piece on the CIA's methods, they even thought to put that fact in there.|3 E |_  |_ 0 VV E |) 19:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reference to Letter?

message: An editor recently added an uncited paragraph claiming that Navy Seals used waterboarding during training to teach how to handle drowning. There is no citation, so it is impossible to check whether this claim is true. And it certainly does not belong in the lead section. Furthermore, a search to try to confirm it turned up the exact opposite from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100402005.html:
:In the post-Vietnam period, the Navy SEALs and some Army Special Forces used a form of waterboarding with trainees to prepare them to resist interrogation if captured. The waterboarding proved so successful in breaking their will, says one former Navy captain familiar with the practice, "they stopped using it because it hurt morale."
In other words, they tried "a form of waterboarding" as training to try to prepare the Seals for torture at the hands of the enemy. Clearly the trainees knew that they were not going to be hurt by their fellow officers, so the comparison to its use as torture is ridiculous to begin with. But even when the trainees knew with absolute certainty that they were not going to be injured, waterboarding was so successful at "breaking their will" that they stopped doing it. I hope that the editor that added this will remember the importance of using Reliable Sources and not Original Research in the future, and will try to add properly-cited accurate text. Thank you, Jgui 20:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also reorganized some text and changed a heading to "Use by the George W Bush Administration" since that is when it has all occurred and since it was all being pushed by his administration. A lot of text appeared in the KSM subsection that belonged in the "Bush" section, so I moved it there. I didn't delete any text except this "Nevertheless, ABC News published information that contradicted the aforementioend version of events. ABC reported that: According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in." This fragment made no sense since it was left over from an earlier edit that someone had made; I incorporated the info in the two narratives of how long KSM was able to tolerate waterboarding before confessing. Cheers, Jgui 21:15, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Navy Seals

message: It seems to me, just from this discussion, that ONLY those who are politically minded and have a political stake in torture refer to water-boarding as NOT torture. Those that actually study it think otherwise. It's as if George Bush, Alberto Gonzalez, Rush Limbaugh and try-as-he-might conservatie comedian Dennis Miller are somehowe legitimate and partial obvservers...ha! EVERY human rights organization in the world, including the various UN agencies, correctly understand you don't need beatings, choppings or burning to constitute "Torture". If the US gov't wanted to use red-hot pokers to torture, I can see the same above figures crying "well, it's not REALLY torutre...". Yeah. DavidMIA 17:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But there is no US law saying chopping people up is torture, so it is not torture. LMAO. ;-) 24.7.56.29 02:12, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

text: And please no one put that latest Bushshit (Oct 6 2007) up at the start of the article. Bush saying it is not torture is NOT CREDIBLE. Biased source, Brain dead source. F***ing psychopath - 700,000 dead iraqis, he is catching up on the Armenian genocide. A murderer saying killing someone illegally is not murder is nonsense, and only bears mention as a footer - it can not provide WEIGHT to an argument, and thus neither should Bush's assertions that torture is not torture. Bad news Mr Future Hague Retiree, Murder is defined as EXTRAjudical killing, however the definition of torture is NOT dependent on whether it is legal somewhere, or whether some crackhead murdering bastard in the us government interprets it accordingly. 24.7.56.29 02:12, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I suppose him coming out of the blue and say that "waterboarding is torture" cannot be used as a source for this article then? Please read your post again once your head has cooled off. That said, I would have to say whatever his view is on waterboarding is a "significant" source if there was a section describing viewpoints about this method (which doesn't exist). --BirdKr 19:17, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: My Opinion