Talk:Communism/Archive 6

message: The barometer is exchanges at prices that reflect supply and demand.  If a person chooses to exchange x which he has for y in the market place, it is assumed in economics that he considers himself better off.  The assumption may not be valid if the person is stupid or lacks information about the goods being exchanged and needs big brother to make the decisons for him to achieve happiness.  But the core of economics gives the individual a little credit for having better information about his own preferences and what would satify him than others making the decison for him would.  This is the reason both sides in an exchange usually say "thank you", otherwise they would be making the exchange, since if the goods were of equal value to each they would not make the exhange since the transaction cost would make them better off with their status quo.  Furthermore, if a person has a medium of exchange like money and the market has many goods which he could exchange it for, his purchase of x instead of y or z, displays his preference and satisfies him more than making  the other choices or no exchange at all.  Perhaps you don't accept this economic assumption, it depends on whether you give individuals a little credit for being able to autonomously make their own decisions.
In a communist mass society, where prices are set by the labor theory of value, people will respond the same way to price signals, if those signals don't also reflect the rarity of materials or the demand of them for higher uses for example, the fact that silver's value should reflect its usefulness in electronics and photography, what is to prevent it from all being used up for silverware.  When prices do reflect demand, silver will go to where it will produce the most economic value, because uses that produce more value will be able to bid more for it.  Note that a market system, also values less utilitarian things, such as silverware, but those who value it, had to value it more than others, since they had to value it enough to bid it away from other uses.  Perhaps a person is stupid for valuing a silver spoon more than a radio, or film, but that is the subjective nature of value.  Markets and prices tend to allocate things to achieve greater overall satisfaction and efficiency, at least where, information costs, transaction costs and externalities are low.--Silverback 00:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you might start by reading some micro-economics and price theory.  Perhaps market economics is a POV subject, but even so, its theory of price, efficiency, and even problems have been fleshed out and practiced, much more than whatever the communist equivilent would be in a mass society that had a minimal or limited state.  Until that is worked, perhaps communes had best interact with the world as basic survival units (BSUs) within existing free market societies.  The can price their goods as they wish, and participate in markets exchanging with other BSUs such as individuals, families, state sanctioned limited liability corporations (they can't exist without state sanction, so should be thought of as part of the state), etc.  Of course, when participating in the markets, they might find the prices quite different, but arbitragers will step in to reduce any inbalances.--Silverback 00:20, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: Interesting response, I mentioned a theory from an established field and then I mention a proposal for how communes might co-exist and operate within a market economy and you respond with "it's far from fact".  Frankly, you aren't passing the Turing Test.--Silverback 04:03, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: It is a robustly confirmed theory, I suppose you think the theories of evolution and relativity should have to be presented the same way.  It would be a herculean task to present all the supporters of these theories, and the list of contesters, would either be some crackpots, or some bleeding edge tweakers who really accept the theory as 90+% right.--Silverback 00:50, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: There are not many universities without microeconomics and price theory courses.--Silverback 02:11, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: You're right, I wouldn't.  I would just pick a broadly distributed comprehensive text, such as Exchange and Production: Theory in Use by Alchian & Allen., that way I wouldn't have to make a Darwin or Dawkin's type of choice.  --Silverback 12:24, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: No, there is a lot of unreferenced material in the article. The culture on the this page seems to be to achieve balance in unreferenced material.  In this type of culture, if certain info, is seriously challenged, as patently false or illogical or nonsensisical then there might be a specific request or challenge to document it.  We give each other space here, people present their arguments and the reader has the burden of weighing whether they make sense or not.   For instance, in the human nature section, there is a poor example of "altruistic" human behavior, the mother caring for the child, which is universal mammalian behavior and which evolutionary theory never had any problem explaining.  Certain risky behaviors in situations where the genetic relationship was more distant or less certain is where the research was grappling with.  And the idea the capitalism suppresses altruism and communism might release these bonds is speculation bordering on nonsense.  However, I credit the reader with being able to detect what might have rigor behind it and what does not.  Now if you want to go through the article with a fine tooth comb, and find things you can challenge with credible and on-point references you will be a formidible contributer and closer to passing the turing test.  However, such rigor might disturb the communitarian peacefulness of the communism page. 8-)  --Silverback 19:05, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Unreferenced or not, I think everyone understands the idea of an open market. However, the unproven part is whether market price-setting actually does result in higher levels of individual satisfaction. Why would it not? Simply because market forces rely on relatively short-term vision and are not coherent. Large-scale long-term projects beneficial to all are rarely initiated by market entities. Nor does the general direction of the market necessarily provide greater individual satisfaction. One might consider that if the resources invested in the perfume market (for instance) were instead allocated to general healthcare and/or dietary balance, satisfaction may very well be increased even for those individuals who would ordinarily have purchased perfume.--Csmcsm 01:33, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It results in higher satisfaction than the consumer started off with, since the exchanges are voluntary.  This is not being compared to what some omniscient planner would do assuming he knew what was really best, it is being compared to the same consumer exchanges where instead the prices are set on the labor theory of value, prices that don't reflect the scarcity of resources or the demand for higher uses.  Under the labor theory of value, the price would be the same for steel spoons as for silver spoons if their manufacturing and supply processes required the same amount of labor.  Scarce resource like silver or energy, and alternate demand from higher uses such as silver in electronics or photographic plates (perhaps for X-rays) is not reflected in the price and thus not in the consumer decision.  The assumption is that the consumer would make better decisions with better information, admittedly this gives the consumer credit for a little intelligence and personal knowledge of his/her own values.  You view perfume as a short term decision that ignores the long term posibilities, but it may the proper longer term choice in the consumer's value system, if for instance it enables the procurement of a more fertile mate with higher quality genes (someone really, really good looking?).  You talk as if noone should ever accept risks for short term pleasure, as if, in a communist society, there would be no mountain climbing, sky diving, promiscuous sexuality, jaywalking, etc. because these don't achieve some ominiscient level of satisfaction or contribute to better health care.--Silverback 05:32, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, you're not answering my points (as usual). Under a market system, resources are dictated mostly by selfish individuals with short-term goals. I've accepted that a communist nation is likely to set the wrong prices with regard to individual demand. But you're not considering the downside of the free-market system: which is that commodities that are inefficient at raising individual satisfaction in general can force the price of efficient commodities to increase. To follow your example, individual demand for decorative silverware will force the cost of X-Ray plates up in a free market, despite the fact that decorative silverware is grossly inefficient in comparison at raising individual satisfaction. Why is it that capitalist nations rely on communist structures to deliver basic public goods? --Csmcsm 20:50, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ruy states: "As far as "lower levels of individual satisfaction" - what? This is ridiculous. What barometer are you using to measure that?" 

message: While what is referred to here on the wiki as communism isn't what I think of when I hear the word (I think of State Communism, i.e. pol pot & stalin), it does seem to be an important concept. This "communalism" is actually very agreeable to me as a spiritual person, I believe strongly in altruism. Unfortunately, these altruistic sociological theories only seem to work as far as the commune, and even then only when there is a solid religious foundation, and often a charismatic leader as well. Frankly, I think the people who desire to attempt Anarcho-Communism on a grand scale, or without a focus on God, have little comprehension of economics, psychology, sociology, or... history. They forget that the shiny idealism they believe so strongly in was once shared by those radicals who led to Stalin, Pol Pot, and every form of state communism. They forget that not everyone is altruistic, and indeed, that many are violent conquerors, or simply minor parasites, looking to revel in excess at the disadvantage of others. Every time I hear someone like Noam Chomsky speak, my mind wanders to visions of Black shirts beating political opponents and forcing them to drink castor oil, Snowball being chased from the farm by dogs, and Trotsky getting stabbed with an ice pick. No matter how pretty the utopia you envision, reality will always eventually step in. Sam Spade Wants you to vote! 13:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Politics, economics, and psychology 

message: I don't understand how the Deng quote needs contextualising, or how it is POV. We are reporting the judgement of many that China has made significantly pro-capitalist economic reforms; the quote is a support of this view. Don't interpret this as a challenge; I'm just genuinely confused, and don't understand the need for reversion. In the interests of accuracy, isn't the best approach to attempt to provide necessary contextualisation? Lacrimosus 07:47, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The rest of the quotation was, "Poverty is not socialism. To be rich is glorious." Yet, the way it was inserted into the article seems to imply that Deng was dismissing communism and admitting the superiority of capitalism. Also, is his conception of what it means to be "rich" any different in China from the prevailing one in the West? One quotation, at any rate one that can be interpreted in multiple ways, does not illustrate a complicated phenomena that accompany China's development... This quotation adds nothing to the article other than confusion. (There are already links concerning Chinese economic reform that are sufficient.) Please remove it. 172 08:22, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that he said it, at the time he was allowing market reforms, would indicate that he thought central planning, if not communism itself, was inhibiting wealth creation.  The quote does not seem confuse any issues.  If it seems a mixed message, perhaps that accurately reflects the state of affairs in the real world as well.--Silverback 02:14, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Deng quote

message: The article itself seems to have become much better of late in respect of not identifying communism exclusively with Leninism and the former USSR, though there is some way to go in this respect. The use of the hammer and sickle logo and its description as 'the international symbol of communism' is an example. It wouldn't be regarded as such by left communists, council communists, most Trotskyites, Anarcho-communists and other advocates of a communist society (granted it would often depend on how far you were from 1917 when you asked them). The appearance of the hammer and sickle at the top of the banner advertising the communism series of articles is likewise inappropriate, given that that series contains many articles on schools of thought that were extremely critical of, if not hostile to, the USSR. Shall we consign it to the dustbin of history? Mattley 23:59, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hammer & Sickle 

message: *Opponents of communism point out that the number of people killed are more than one hundred million. And that the methods used included concentration camps, mass starvation and ethnic genocides. [ 
** This is addresssed already in a way that avoids violating Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View with the following "...presiding over periods of repressive rule that saw tens of millions of casualties (see also Communist state)." In addition, you links have been added to the text. Further detail is found in the articles on the histories of the various Communist regimes and Communist state.
*And that they [concentration camps, mass starvation and ethnic genocides] took place in almost every communistic state.
**This is a description of the Stalinist USSR, which saw a scale of violence and terror unseen in Communist regimes that came to power after the Second World War, such as Cuba.    
*And in the Soviet Union continued even when that state was a superpower."
**The terror was abated significantly following Stalin's death, with Khrushchev's de-Stalinization. To make it clear that the USSR and other Communist governments were still nevertheless repressive single party regimes, but in a way that does not over-simplify history and violate NPOV, I added: "In the second half of the twentieth century, movements that threatened Communist Parties' monopoly on power, such Czechoslovakia's Prague Spring and China's Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, continued to be suppressed. Given these incidents and their often-violent histories, Communist Party-led regimes are often associated with human rights abuses, especially in the West."
*They also point out that every communistic state to date have been a dictatorship.
**The text states, "Because they were governed by monopolistic parties..." Those who argue that every Communist regime has been a dictatorship base that on the fact that a single party has a monopoly on power, so this point is already addressed while following NPOV. 
*Some supporters of communism claim that these states were in fact not communistic. Opponents claim that using the same argument, it is not possible to criticize capitalistic societies, as it can be claimed that apparently capitalistic states are in fact not capitalistic.
**This is neither here nor there. They were Communist Party run states, and to dispute this would be more of a stretch than arguing that the world is flat. They were not "communistic" though (with a small "c"). Communism is a social system based on common ownership of all property, an ideal that Communist Party run regimes claim that they are attempting to realize, but one that never has been realized; and this cannot be disputed given every single definition of "communism" (small "c") available.
In all, note many of the recent additions under the "violence" section (formerly "revolutionary violence"-- broadened to include the entire span of their rule) that incorporate the topics that Ultramarine is attempting to bring to light. 172 00:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely people acknowledge that historically Communist states have held communist characteristics, even if they have not fulfilled Marx's dream of "true" communism (which, given the circumstances necessary, is utterly impossible) J. Parker Stone 01:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Stick with standard definitions. Communism is based on common ownership of all property. Socialism is based on state ownership of the means of production. 172 03:00, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: It should be noted that millions continud to be killed even after Stalin and Mao. And that the deaths occured in almost all Communist states. However, the text is a marked ímprovement. Earler there were NO mention of the millions of killed, neither in this article or in that about Communist states. I will restore the last argument. The Communist states certainly tried to implement the ideas of Marx and called themselves Communist. And were societes were the state owned all property.Ultramarine 08:50, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Communist states certainly tried to implement the ideas of Marx and called themselves Communist. And were societes were the state owned all property. This is covered elsewhere in the article. Keep in mind that there are also articles on Communist state, Marxism, and socialism. The Communism article is the on the ideology of Communism (large "C") and communism (small "c") as a social system; and it already veers way too off topic with discussions of socialism and the political history of various Communist regimes. Re: millions continud to be killed even after Stalin and Mao Not in the Soviet Union under Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko, and Gorbachev. Not in China under Deng Xiaoping, Jiang Zemin, and Hu Jintao. Perhaps you are referring to Pol Pot's rule. 172 09:06, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read more history. Soviet Union  China You seem to think that facts that contradict your view of the world are POV. But they are just facts, not opinions. Calling deaths in concentration camps or due to deliberate mass starvation for casualties is POV. I will change the statements so that the fact are clear. Do not censor them, even if you do not like the facts. Ultramarine 14:16, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do not attribute this to POV. The reverts are more the result of problems posed by your non-native English, which is leaving this section a jumbled mess. The article goes into a sufficient level of detail mentioning tens of millions of casualties. The political histories of the relevant Communist regimes can be found in articles on the History of the Soviet Union and the History of the People's Republic of China. And, yes, it is POV to deny that the terror was abated significantly in the Soviet Union and China after the deaths of Stalin and Mao, respectively. 172 02:03, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Then change the English. Do not censor the facts. You again insist that deaths in concentration camps or due to deliberate mass starvation are casualties? You have already demonstrated your lack of historic knowledge by claiming that millions did not continue to be killed after Stalin and Mao. Keep the facts so you and others can learn. Ultramarine 04:39, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a historian, so you can show me all the libertarian polemics and websites that you possibly can will not have shown me anything new to me. Writing NPOV is not just a matter of inserting "opponents say," "supporters say" anywhere you can possibly fit it but rather writing specifically and precisely. Internal exile and concentration camps in Siberia long predate the Soviet Union, as do mass starvations, so they are not unique to Communist rule. Thus, I will integrate your observations of famine and starvation into the article in way that maintains proper historical writing, specifically mentioning the Gulags and the famine coinciding with collectivization. 172 06:34, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to be very afraid to let others know that killing continued until the fall of communism in the Soviet Union, under Lenin, after Mao and in all Communist countries. Add that killings also took place in Russia before the revolution, but do not remove that they continued as long as the communists were in power. Why was there NO mention of the Gulags in the articles prior to this discussion, if you had knowledge of them? Ultramarine 07:03, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Enough with the finger-pointing. (Libertas?) I wrote only very small portions of the article; and this is not the article on the history of the soviet Union. 172 07:07, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Much better now. I disagree to "casualties". Which is " a military person lost through death, wounds, injury, sickness, internment, or capture or through being missing in action". And if these states were not communist, then one can similarly claim that apparently capitalist states are not capitalist. Ultramarine 07:42, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Explanations for the removal of Ultramarine's text

message: This article is filled with Trotskyist slants. Stalin suppressed ALL dissent? Find me a quote from Stalin where he actually says it is neccesary to "suppress all dissent". He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism. In fact, there is no Stalinism. Stalinism is term invented by Trots for Marxism-Leninism. Trotskyism is a deviation from Marxism-Leninism.
* Just out of interest - are you or have you ever been a member of the Communist party? Average Earthman 17:22, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I smell a Trot! 

message: Not going to go into too much detail here, since it has been well covered elsewhere, notably by Karl Marx... Here is the addition made by Luis 
*According to critics, communists forget, however, that the production process requires more than just labour: machines (i.e. "capital"). These machines have a cost, which has to be included in the price of the produced good. Indeed, a T-shirt can nowadays be either produced with lots of labour (for instance in China) or with many machines (in Europe). Modern economic theory would imply that both T-shirts should have the same price (since they are essentially the same), no matter how much labour went into them.
Communists don't forget that capital makes up part of the cost of production of a commodity, though they do see capital as 'dead' or 'congealed' labour. There is no conflict between Marx and "Modern economic theory" on the point you claim. Yes, these T-shirts exchange at the same price despite having required different amounts of labour for their production because, in Marxian terms, their value is determined by the average amount of labour required for their production. There are plenty of valid criticisms that could be made of Marx, but this one is just based on a misapprehension I'm afraid. See Wages, Price and Profit or Wage Labour and Capital for more if you like. They explain the Labour theory of value very cogently and address the assumptions you are making. Mattley 19:46, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Does the theory explain how the congealed labor in the capital equipment just happens to come out equal to the labor in the labor intensive process?  That coincidence sounds too unlikely to be true.  There wouldn't be much point to the machines if they didn't save net labor in the long run.--Silverback 10:59, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not completely sure what you're driving at in that first sentence there. It isn't a question of amounts of labour being equal - because it is not the amount of labour in a particular commodity but the average amount required. In general, that is the point of introducing machinery: it means that a capitalist is temporarily able to produce commodities more cheaply than competitors yet realise a greater profit because he would be producing below the socially necessary cost of production for said commodities. This competitive advantage, in a real-world situation, would be of very short-duration, since competitors would also increase their capital-intensity. Is this not covered at Labour theory of value or somewhere? As for centrally planned states etc, I don't know. They weren't 'socialist', and if they claimed to be putting 'Marxian economics' into practices they were even more fraudulent than I realised. Mattley 12:29, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: economic critique

message: There's no mention of the concept of a gift economy in this article, which I find quite surprising, because the concepts are almost the same. I mean, they could be used to clear up a lot of things which would normally take a lot of things to say, or if the concept wasn't even mentioned, then oh the horror! 
Also, I find the fact that this article seems to distinguish too much between anarchism and communism. Can we consider anarchism part of, a branch of communism, whereas Marxist-Leninism is the other main branch? -- Natalinasmpf 22:39, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gift economy and anarchism 

message: Sorry if I seem annoying, but I find the skyscraper example rather bad. Maybe in the US skyscrapers are built entirely with private capital, but in other countries that does not seem to be the case. In the Gulf states skyscrapers are mostly built by state-owned companies. In Europe also the states have a lot of influence on skyscraper-building because of zoning laws, etc. Could the same point be made with another example? Luis rib 17:56, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Skyscraper example

message: *Becker, Jasper (1998) Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine'.' Owl Books. ISBN: 0805056688.
*Conquest, Robert (1991) The Great Terror: A Reassessment Oxford University Press ISBN: 0195071328.
*Conquest, Robert (1987) The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine.  Oxford University Press. ISBN: 0195051807.
*Courtois,Stephane; Werth, Nicolas; Panne, Jean-Louis; Paczkowski, Andrzej; Bartosek, Karel;  Margolin, Jean-Louis & Kramer, Mark (1999). The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression. Harvard University Press. ISBN: 0674076087.
*Hamilton-Merritt, Jane (1999) Tragic Mountains: The Hmong, the Americans, and the Secret Wars for Laos, 1942-1992 Indiana University Press. ISBN: 0253207568.
*Jackson, Karl D. (1992) Cambodia, 1975-1978  Princeton University Press ISBN: 069102541X.
*Kakar, M. Hassan (1997)Afghanistan: The Soviet Invasion and the Afghan Response, 1979-1982  University of California Press. ISBN: 0520208935.
*Khlevniuk, Oleg  &  Kozlov, Vladimir (2004) The History of the Gulag : From Collectivization to the Great Terror (Annals of Communism Series) Yale University Pres. ISBN: 0300092849.
*Natsios, Andrew S. (2002) The Great North Korean Famine. Institute of Peace Press. ISBN: 1929223331.
*Nghia M. Vo (2004) The Bamboo Gulag: Political Imprisonment in Communist Vietnam  McFarland & Company ISBN: 0786417145.
*Pipes, Richard (1995) Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime. Vintage. ISBN: 0679761845.
*Rummel, R.J. (1997). Death by Government. Transaction Publishers. ISBN: 1560009276.
*Rummel, R.J. (1996). Lethal Politics: Soviet Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1917. Transaction Publishers ISBN: 1560008873.
*Rummel, R.J. &  Rummel, Rudolph J. (1999). Statistics of Democide: Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1900. Lit Verlag ISBN: 3825840107.
*Todorov, Tzvetan & Zaretsky, Robert (1999). Voices from the Gulag: Life and Death in Communist Bulgaria.  Pennsylvania State University Press. ISBN: 0271019611
*Yakovlev, Alexander (2004). A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia. Yale University Press. ISBN: 0300103220. Ultramarine 04:26, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please write this ñew section in the capitalism article and support it with academic references. It would start an interesting debate. But do not censor the academic research regarding Communist states. You have not given a single academic reference that finds an error in current text. Ultramarine 04:40, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The point that I am making does not require the presentation of extensive research. It should be readily apparent to just about anyone who passed high school history. (World History is a requirement in just about every American high school.) All of those watching this article should be expected to have enough of a grounding in the past to be aware of the fact that the construction of labor camps, mass starvation, and repression of ethnic minorities occurred in noncommunist regimes, and were indeed all too common in both China and Russia before their respective Communist takeovers. That's the only premise of my argument that I am responsible for establishing. With that in mind, your work should be more contextualized and balanced by other possible explanatory variables, like the fact that both China and Russia were engulfed by utter chaos and anarchy before the Communists even came to power. (One would have to be pretty obtuse to expect any group forcibly establishing a new regime to restore order without a considerable amount of bloodshed.) JMaxwell 05:07, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to add your observations, with academic references. The facts are clear and should not be censored. They showed that horrendous human rights violations took place in most or all of the states ruled by Communist parties. If you want to justify these crimes, add your explanation. If you want to give similar charges against capitalism, do so with references. For now, you have only made many claims without a single reference as support. Please read cite your sources and no original research. Ultramarine 09:05, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Then you can read about the fallacy of the hasty generalization. I thought that you would be intelligent enough to realize that the paragraph was nothing more than a huge sweeping generalization without having to name-drop, but since you would rather continue playing games instead of respecting the NPOV policy, I can join you in this pissing contest and start listing off academics myself. For starters, Barrington Moore's Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy relates the class structure of the old regimes the political development of Communist regimes. Skocpol's States and Social Revolutions relates class and state structures of the old regime to political development. I cite these two because their works are the basis of established literature on this subject in comparative politics; if you are interested in other writers in this field, you can go ahead and do a search on Jstor yourself. JMaxwell 09:44, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to justify these crimes, add your explanation. If you want to give similar charges against capitalism, do so with references. I am not setting out to do either of these things. This is a staw man and yet another diversion on your part. The problem is that you are refusing to accept any other possible explanation of these occurrences except Communism, which makes little sense when you consider the basic fact that the construction of labor camps, mass starvation, and repression of ethnic minorities occurred at times in noncommunist regimes, and, moreover, took place at times in both Russia and China before the Communists came along. This is an example of how tricky it is to argue that these poltical patterns are caused by an economic system or an ideology, and why these explantions are for the realm of scholarly journals, not Wikipedia. JMaxwell 09:50, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You understate the magnitude of the situation, the countries themselves were slave labor camps since they shot people trying to escape, there is film footage of it happening for badness sakes!  Denial of the right emigrate is perhaps the most basic human rights violation (for those allowed to live), we could perhaps tolerate some diversity in country oppressiveness if people were living there were doing so voluntarily, but denial of the right to emigrate trumps any apologia these regimes might offer for the measures they use.--Silverback 10:52, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: 1) Are you denying that these crimes took place? Then give academic references 2) Are you saying that similar crimes took place in Capitalist countries? Then give references and write something in the Capitalism article. 3) Are you saying that all the crimes took place during the revolution and that there were no Gulags, terror or mass starvations long after this? Then please give references. You seem to think that  crimes can be excused if there has been similar crimes before which is an absurd idea. It is like justifying Hitler's genocides by stating that the German empire earlier committed genocides in Africa. Ultramarine 11:14, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you speak English? How many times do you have to make the same accusations and say the same things over and over again? Reread what I wrote. If you want to justify these crimes, add your explanation. If you want to give similar charges against capitalism, do so with references. I am not setting out to do either of these things. This is a staw man and yet another diversion on your part. The problem is that you are refusing to accept any other possible explanation of these occurrences except Communism, which makes little sense when you consider the basic fact that the construction of labor camps, mass starvation, and repression of ethnic minorities occurred at times in noncommunist regimes, and, moreover, took place at times in both Russia and China before the Communists came along.... You want to claim that these things were caused only by Communism, independent of other factors, when in reality hisotry was more complex. JMaxwell 20:56, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are ignoring my questions and statements in more recent replies. I will go all the way to arbitration if there is any attempt at censorship of very well-documented historical facts. Ultramarine 21:04, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You keep on turn my statements into strawmen, attributing motives to me that I'm not working for. You asked for sources, and I gave them to you. There is indeed writing on China and Russia that does not attribute all the problems in those two countries to Communist boogymen... Go ahead and take this to arbitration. Your work is POV and you are acting unreasonable. I'm sure that will be evident to any less fanatical person. JMaxwell 21:09, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  None of your sources explain why the human rights violations by Communist states should be censored from the article. Add to the text that there is "writing on China and Russia that does not attribute all the problems in those two countries to Communist boogymen". This is no excuse for excluding the very well-documented historical research. Should the article about Nazism censor the human rights crimes because there are some books which have a different opinion? Ultramarine 21:21, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Damn you're being really dense. My point isn't to keep information out, just to balance it with more information, or get rid of it if the writers can manage to present it within the framework of NPOV. The problem is not necessarily what you are observing, but the lack of attention to other areas of academic literature when it comes to causation. JMaxwell 21:31, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then add the information, as I have repeatedly stated, with references. Ultramarine 21:34, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: Dear JMaxwell. Since you ask in how far theoretical Communism is responsible for the crimes attributed to Communism, here's an explanation (documented in The Black Book, among many other sources). A) Certainly labour camps, famines, etc. existed before communism. B)In the case of labour camps, these persisted for the simple reason that the general population was opposed to the government and the policies it implemented (e.g. collectivization of land). C) Famines were directly linked to Communist policies. In China's case, the Black Book explains very well how the economic measures of the Great Leap Forward were the prîncipal reason of the famine (e.g. the prohibition to trade grain between provinces, the collectivization of land, the central planification, the reduced labour force following the forced move to industrial production, etc.). This is different from previous famines that took place before communism, and were due to indifference from the central powers. D) In the case of Cambodia, the genocide was directly the consequence of Pol Pot's interpretation of Communism (i.e. an agricultural communism, without money, industry, or services, and where individualism was suppressed to the point of prohibiting glasses), which he tried to preserve by assassinating or starving those that might have seen the flaws in his reasoning. E) You may argue that all these points are irrelevant since they don't reflect real (utopic) communism). This point can be countered by noticing that 1- utopic free market capitalism doesn't exist either; 2- until 1989, all communist parties, and most intellectuals that supported marxism, agreed that the Soviet Union and other countries were on the way of establishing communism; 3- from an economic point of view, many measures typically identified with communism were indeed implemented by Communist countries, with the consequences we know. Luis rib 21:42, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Save your breath. I have heard all of these explanations many times before. I am not saying that I necessarily disagree with them, but that the article should not be based on the above POV premises or other POV premises that recognize that every social and economic structure that has ever developed in China or Russia has had its inherent problems. JMaxwell 23:10, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  References on human rights violations by Communist states 

message: Yes, our article capitalism suffers from the same attempts by utopian advocates. Some claim no capitalist society has ever existed. Someone says it is not propaganda. That implies that a serious theorist might believe this utopian vision could in fact exist. I never met them in real life. What I enountered is people who insisted something good might eventually come out of all the effort, but made excuses for the imperfect contemporary examples. Let's pretend, in short. Fred Bauder 01:03, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
No, a lot of pure capitalist (aka laissez faire) economies have always existed. You can't compare "utopian capitalism" to "utopian communism" - communism was designed for utopia, capitalism was just meant to further the goals of one individual over the other. There is no proposed model for "capitalist utopia", because there was no such thing as a "capitalist manifesto", for instance. You have investment for dummies books, economics books or teachings on how to make money and discussion, but it was never to achieve utopia. Because the system's success is not based on how well the community does: just one individual. Hence, this does not apply. Communism - is an socioeconomic model. Capitalism is a purely economic system. True capitalist societies have always existed, true communist entities that took over countries have never existed. -- Natalinasmpf 02:26, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Response to dialogue

message: Totalitiarianism is sociologically impossible, and has existed no where except in the works of fiction, and the minds of writers such as Orwell. Utopianism, which often seems to be similiar to totalitarianism; is the same. The terms should be totally striked from the article, atleast when talking of scientific communism, such as Marxism(-Leninism). --Mista-X 17:46, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Which terms? The term "utopianism"/"utopian", or the terms classified as being "utopian"? Also totalitarianism, yes that is true, it means when the government has total control (to an extent), bu t the idea "approaching totalitarianism" could be a true statement. Generally, if someone is starving, but say, has only been starving for a week, and if no one continues to give him food, it would be correct to say he's approaching death, no? -- Natalinasmpf 17:54, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Totalitarianism and Utopianism are Sociological impossibilities

message: Unfortunately, the commies here on Wikipedia prevent communism from rightfully being treated in the same manner as nazism and fascism. Therefore, the crimes of communism are whitewashed, rationalized and equivocated away.
--Unsigned comment by User:212.202.51.84 Slac speak up! 22:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: To be frank, it would be nice if the editing process on this page could be something other than a "dialectic" between communist-sympathetic and communist-antipathetic users. But I don't particularly think name-calling is going to help anything much. Slac speak up! 22:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Crimes? Or hijackings by state capitalists? -- Natalinasmpf 17:54, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Communism is Totalitarian 

message: The barometer is exchanges at prices that reflect supply and demand.  If a person chooses to exchange x which he has for y in the market place, it is assumed in economics that he considers himself better off.  The assumption may not be valid if the person is stupid or lacks information about the goods being exchanged and needs big brother to make the decisons for him to achieve happiness.  But the core of economics gives the individual a little credit for having better information about his own preferences and what would satify him than others making the decison for him would.  This is the reason both sides in an exchange usually say "thank you", otherwise they would be making the exchange, since if the goods were of equal value to each they would not make the exhange since the transaction cost would make them better off with their status quo.  Furthermore, if a person has a medium of exchange like money and the market has many goods which he could exchange it for, his purchase of x instead of y or z, displays his preference and satisfies him more than making  the other choices or no exchange at all.  Perhaps you don't accept this economic assumption, it depends on whether you give individuals a little credit for being able to autonomously make their own decisions.
In a communist mass society, where prices are set by the labor theory of value, people will respond the same way to price signals, if those signals don't also reflect the rarity of materials or the demand of them for higher uses for example, the fact that silver's value should reflect its usefulness in electronics and photography, what is to prevent it from all being used up for silverware.  When prices do reflect demand, silver will go to where it will produce the most economic value, because uses that produce more value will be able to bid more for it.  Note that a market system, also values less utilitarian things, such as silverware, but those who value it, had to value it more than others, since they had to value it enough to bid it away from other uses.  Perhaps a person is stupid for valuing a silver spoon more than a radio, or film, but that is the subjective nature of value.  Markets and prices tend to allocate things to achieve greater overall satisfaction and efficiency, at least where, information costs, transaction costs and externalities are low.--Silverback 00:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you might start by reading some micro-economics and price theory.  Perhaps market economics is a POV subject, but even so, its theory of price, efficiency, and even problems have been fleshed out and practiced, much more than whatever the communist equivilent would be in a mass society that had a minimal or limited state.  Until that is worked, perhaps communes had best interact with the world as basic survival units (BSUs) within existing free market societies.  The can price their goods as they wish, and participate in markets exchanging with other BSUs such as individuals, families, state sanctioned limited liability corporations (they can't exist without state sanction, so should be thought of as part of the state), etc.  Of course, when participating in the markets, they might find the prices quite different, but arbitragers will step in to reduce any inbalances.--Silverback 00:20, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: Interesting response, I mentioned a theory from an established field and then I mention a proposal for how communes might co-exist and operate within a market economy and you respond with "it's far from fact".  Frankly, you aren't passing the Turing Test.--Silverback 04:03, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: It is a robustly confirmed theory, I suppose you think the theories of evolution and relativity should have to be presented the same way.  It would be a herculean task to present all the supporters of these theories, and the list of contesters, would either be some crackpots, or some bleeding edge tweakers who really accept the theory as 90+% right.--Silverback 00:50, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: There are not many universities without microeconomics and price theory courses.--Silverback 02:11, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: You're right, I wouldn't.  I would just pick a broadly distributed comprehensive text, such as Exchange and Production: Theory in Use by Alchian & Allen., that way I wouldn't have to make a Darwin or Dawkin's type of choice.  --Silverback 12:24, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: No, there is a lot of unreferenced material in the article. The culture on the this page seems to be to achieve balance in unreferenced material.  In this type of culture, if certain info, is seriously challenged, as patently false or illogical or nonsensisical then there might be a specific request or challenge to document it.  We give each other space here, people present their arguments and the reader has the burden of weighing whether they make sense or not.   For instance, in the human nature section, there is a poor example of "altruistic" human behavior, the mother caring for the child, which is universal mammalian behavior and which evolutionary theory never had any problem explaining.  Certain risky behaviors in situations where the genetic relationship was more distant or less certain is where the research was grappling with.  And the idea the capitalism suppresses altruism and communism might release these bonds is speculation bordering on nonsense.  However, I credit the reader with being able to detect what might have rigor behind it and what does not.  Now if you want to go through the article with a fine tooth comb, and find things you can challenge with credible and on-point references you will be a formidible contributer and closer to passing the turing test.  However, such rigor might disturb the communitarian peacefulness of the communism page. 8-)  --Silverback 19:05, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Unreferenced or not, I think everyone understands the idea of an open market. However, the unproven part is whether market price-setting actually does result in higher levels of individual satisfaction. Why would it not? Simply because market forces rely on relatively short-term vision and are not coherent. Large-scale long-term projects beneficial to all are rarely initiated by market entities. Nor does the general direction of the market necessarily provide greater individual satisfaction. One might consider that if the resources invested in the perfume market (for instance) were instead allocated to general healthcare and/or dietary balance, satisfaction may very well be increased even for those individuals who would ordinarily have purchased perfume.--Csmcsm 01:33, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It results in higher satisfaction than the consumer started off with, since the exchanges are voluntary.  This is not being compared to what some omniscient planner would do assuming he knew what was really best, it is being compared to the same consumer exchanges where instead the prices are set on the labor theory of value, prices that don't reflect the scarcity of resources or the demand for higher uses.  Under the labor theory of value, the price would be the same for steel spoons as for silver spoons if their manufacturing and supply processes required the same amount of labor.  Scarce resource like silver or energy, and alternate demand from higher uses such as silver in electronics or photographic plates (perhaps for X-rays) is not reflected in the price and thus not in the consumer decision.  The assumption is that the consumer would make better decisions with better information, admittedly this gives the consumer credit for a little intelligence and personal knowledge of his/her own values.  You view perfume as a short term decision that ignores the long term posibilities, but it may the proper longer term choice in the consumer's value system, if for instance it enables the procurement of a more fertile mate with higher quality genes (someone really, really good looking?).  You talk as if noone should ever accept risks for short term pleasure, as if, in a communist society, there would be no mountain climbing, sky diving, promiscuous sexuality, jaywalking, etc. because these don't achieve some ominiscient level of satisfaction or contribute to better health care.--Silverback 05:32, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, you're not answering my points (as usual). Under a market system, resources are dictated mostly by selfish individuals with short-term goals. I've accepted that a communist nation is likely to set the wrong prices with regard to individual demand. But you're not considering the downside of the free-market system: which is that commodities that are inefficient at raising individual satisfaction in general can force the price of efficient commodities to increase. To follow your example, individual demand for decorative silverware will force the cost of X-Ray plates up in a free market, despite the fact that decorative silverware is grossly inefficient in comparison at raising individual satisfaction. Why is it that capitalist nations rely on communist structures to deliver basic public goods? --Csmcsm 20:50, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ruy states: "As far as "lower levels of individual satisfaction" - what? This is ridiculous. What barometer are you using to measure that?" 

message: While what is referred to here on the wiki as communism isn't what I think of when I hear the word (I think of State Communism, i.e. pol pot & stalin), it does seem to be an important concept. This "communalism" is actually very agreeable to me as a spiritual person, I believe strongly in altruism. Unfortunately, these altruistic sociological theories only seem to work as far as the commune, and even then only when there is a solid religious foundation, and often a charismatic leader as well. Frankly, I think the people who desire to attempt Anarcho-Communism on a grand scale, or without a focus on God, have little comprehension of economics, psychology, sociology, or... history. They forget that the shiny idealism they believe so strongly in was once shared by those radicals who led to Stalin, Pol Pot, and every form of state communism. They forget that not everyone is altruistic, and indeed, that many are violent conquerors, or simply minor parasites, looking to revel in excess at the disadvantage of others. Every time I hear someone like Noam Chomsky speak, my mind wanders to visions of Black shirts beating political opponents and forcing them to drink castor oil, Snowball being chased from the farm by dogs, and Trotsky getting stabbed with an ice pick. No matter how pretty the utopia you envision, reality will always eventually step in. Sam Spade Wants you to vote! 13:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Politics, economics, and psychology 

message: I don't understand how the Deng quote needs contextualising, or how it is POV. We are reporting the judgement of many that China has made significantly pro-capitalist economic reforms; the quote is a support of this view. Don't interpret this as a challenge; I'm just genuinely confused, and don't understand the need for reversion. In the interests of accuracy, isn't the best approach to attempt to provide necessary contextualisation? Lacrimosus 07:47, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The rest of the quotation was, "Poverty is not socialism. To be rich is glorious." Yet, the way it was inserted into the article seems to imply that Deng was dismissing communism and admitting the superiority of capitalism. Also, is his conception of what it means to be "rich" any different in China from the prevailing one in the West? One quotation, at any rate one that can be interpreted in multiple ways, does not illustrate a complicated phenomena that accompany China's development... This quotation adds nothing to the article other than confusion. (There are already links concerning Chinese economic reform that are sufficient.) Please remove it. 172 08:22, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that he said it, at the time he was allowing market reforms, would indicate that he thought central planning, if not communism itself, was inhibiting wealth creation.  The quote does not seem confuse any issues.  If it seems a mixed message, perhaps that accurately reflects the state of affairs in the real world as well.--Silverback 02:14, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Deng quote

message: The article itself seems to have become much better of late in respect of not identifying communism exclusively with Leninism and the former USSR, though there is some way to go in this respect. The use of the hammer and sickle logo and its description as 'the international symbol of communism' is an example. It wouldn't be regarded as such by left communists, council communists, most Trotskyites, Anarcho-communists and other advocates of a communist society (granted it would often depend on how far you were from 1917 when you asked them). The appearance of the hammer and sickle at the top of the banner advertising the communism series of articles is likewise inappropriate, given that that series contains many articles on schools of thought that were extremely critical of, if not hostile to, the USSR. Shall we consign it to the dustbin of history? Mattley 23:59, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hammer & Sickle 

message: *Opponents of communism point out that the number of people killed are more than one hundred million. And that the methods used included concentration camps, mass starvation and ethnic genocides. [ 
** This is addresssed already in a way that avoids violating Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View with the following "...presiding over periods of repressive rule that saw tens of millions of casualties (see also Communist state)." In addition, you links have been added to the text. Further detail is found in the articles on the histories of the various Communist regimes and Communist state.
*And that they [concentration camps, mass starvation and ethnic genocides] took place in almost every communistic state.
**This is a description of the Stalinist USSR, which saw a scale of violence and terror unseen in Communist regimes that came to power after the Second World War, such as Cuba.    
*And in the Soviet Union continued even when that state was a superpower."
**The terror was abated significantly following Stalin's death, with Khrushchev's de-Stalinization. To make it clear that the USSR and other Communist governments were still nevertheless repressive single party regimes, but in a way that does not over-simplify history and violate NPOV, I added: "In the second half of the twentieth century, movements that threatened Communist Parties' monopoly on power, such Czechoslovakia's Prague Spring and China's Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, continued to be suppressed. Given these incidents and their often-violent histories, Communist Party-led regimes are often associated with human rights abuses, especially in the West."
*They also point out that every communistic state to date have been a dictatorship.
**The text states, "Because they were governed by monopolistic parties..." Those who argue that every Communist regime has been a dictatorship base that on the fact that a single party has a monopoly on power, so this point is already addressed while following NPOV. 
*Some supporters of communism claim that these states were in fact not communistic. Opponents claim that using the same argument, it is not possible to criticize capitalistic societies, as it can be claimed that apparently capitalistic states are in fact not capitalistic.
**This is neither here nor there. They were Communist Party run states, and to dispute this would be more of a stretch than arguing that the world is flat. They were not "communistic" though (with a small "c"). Communism is a social system based on common ownership of all property, an ideal that Communist Party run regimes claim that they are attempting to realize, but one that never has been realized; and this cannot be disputed given every single definition of "communism" (small "c") available.
In all, note many of the recent additions under the "violence" section (formerly "revolutionary violence"-- broadened to include the entire span of their rule) that incorporate the topics that Ultramarine is attempting to bring to light. 172 00:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely people acknowledge that historically Communist states have held communist characteristics, even if they have not fulfilled Marx's dream of "true" communism (which, given the circumstances necessary, is utterly impossible) J. Parker Stone 01:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Stick with standard definitions. Communism is based on common ownership of all property. Socialism is based on state ownership of the means of production. 172 03:00, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: It should be noted that millions continud to be killed even after Stalin and Mao. And that the deaths occured in almost all Communist states. However, the text is a marked ímprovement. Earler there were NO mention of the millions of killed, neither in this article or in that about Communist states. I will restore the last argument. The Communist states certainly tried to implement the ideas of Marx and called themselves Communist. And were societes were the state owned all property.Ultramarine 08:50, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Communist states certainly tried to implement the ideas of Marx and called themselves Communist. And were societes were the state owned all property. This is covered elsewhere in the article. Keep in mind that there are also articles on Communist state, Marxism, and socialism. The Communism article is the on the ideology of Communism (large "C") and communism (small "c") as a social system; and it already veers way too off topic with discussions of socialism and the political history of various Communist regimes. Re: millions continud to be killed even after Stalin and Mao Not in the Soviet Union under Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko, and Gorbachev. Not in China under Deng Xiaoping, Jiang Zemin, and Hu Jintao. Perhaps you are referring to Pol Pot's rule. 172 09:06, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read more history. Soviet Union  China You seem to think that facts that contradict your view of the world are POV. But they are just facts, not opinions. Calling deaths in concentration camps or due to deliberate mass starvation for casualties is POV. I will change the statements so that the fact are clear. Do not censor them, even if you do not like the facts. Ultramarine 14:16, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do not attribute this to POV. The reverts are more the result of problems posed by your non-native English, which is leaving this section a jumbled mess. The article goes into a sufficient level of detail mentioning tens of millions of casualties. The political histories of the relevant Communist regimes can be found in articles on the History of the Soviet Union and the History of the People's Republic of China. And, yes, it is POV to deny that the terror was abated significantly in the Soviet Union and China after the deaths of Stalin and Mao, respectively. 172 02:03, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Then change the English. Do not censor the facts. You again insist that deaths in concentration camps or due to deliberate mass starvation are casualties? You have already demonstrated your lack of historic knowledge by claiming that millions did not continue to be killed after Stalin and Mao. Keep the facts so you and others can learn. Ultramarine 04:39, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a historian, so you can show me all the libertarian polemics and websites that you possibly can will not have shown me anything new to me. Writing NPOV is not just a matter of inserting "opponents say," "supporters say" anywhere you can possibly fit it but rather writing specifically and precisely. Internal exile and concentration camps in Siberia long predate the Soviet Union, as do mass starvations, so they are not unique to Communist rule. Thus, I will integrate your observations of famine and starvation into the article in way that maintains proper historical writing, specifically mentioning the Gulags and the famine coinciding with collectivization. 172 06:34, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to be very afraid to let others know that killing continued until the fall of communism in the Soviet Union, under Lenin, after Mao and in all Communist countries. Add that killings also took place in Russia before the revolution, but do not remove that they continued as long as the communists were in power. Why was there NO mention of the Gulags in the articles prior to this discussion, if you had knowledge of them? Ultramarine 07:03, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Enough with the finger-pointing. (Libertas?) I wrote only very small portions of the article; and this is not the article on the history of the soviet Union. 172 07:07, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Much better now. I disagree to "casualties". Which is " a military person lost through death, wounds, injury, sickness, internment, or capture or through being missing in action". And if these states were not communist, then one can similarly claim that apparently capitalist states are not capitalist. Ultramarine 07:42, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Explanations for the removal of Ultramarine's text

message: This article is filled with Trotskyist slants. Stalin suppressed ALL dissent? Find me a quote from Stalin where he actually says it is neccesary to "suppress all dissent". He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism. In fact, there is no Stalinism. Stalinism is term invented by Trots for Marxism-Leninism. Trotskyism is a deviation from Marxism-Leninism.
* Just out of interest - are you or have you ever been a member of the Communist party? Average Earthman 17:22, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I smell a Trot! 

message: Not going to go into too much detail here, since it has been well covered elsewhere, notably by Karl Marx... Here is the addition made by Luis 
*According to critics, communists forget, however, that the production process requires more than just labour: machines (i.e. "capital"). These machines have a cost, which has to be included in the price of the produced good. Indeed, a T-shirt can nowadays be either produced with lots of labour (for instance in China) or with many machines (in Europe). Modern economic theory would imply that both T-shirts should have the same price (since they are essentially the same), no matter how much labour went into them.
Communists don't forget that capital makes up part of the cost of production of a commodity, though they do see capital as 'dead' or 'congealed' labour. There is no conflict between Marx and "Modern economic theory" on the point you claim. Yes, these T-shirts exchange at the same price despite having required different amounts of labour for their production because, in Marxian terms, their value is determined by the average amount of labour required for their production. There are plenty of valid criticisms that could be made of Marx, but this one is just based on a misapprehension I'm afraid. See Wages, Price and Profit or Wage Labour and Capital for more if you like. They explain the Labour theory of value very cogently and address the assumptions you are making. Mattley 19:46, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Does the theory explain how the congealed labor in the capital equipment just happens to come out equal to the labor in the labor intensive process?  That coincidence sounds too unlikely to be true.  There wouldn't be much point to the machines if they didn't save net labor in the long run.--Silverback 10:59, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not completely sure what you're driving at in that first sentence there. It isn't a question of amounts of labour being equal - because it is not the amount of labour in a particular commodity but the average amount required. In general, that is the point of introducing machinery: it means that a capitalist is temporarily able to produce commodities more cheaply than competitors yet realise a greater profit because he would be producing below the socially necessary cost of production for said commodities. This competitive advantage, in a real-world situation, would be of very short-duration, since competitors would also increase their capital-intensity. Is this not covered at Labour theory of value or somewhere? As for centrally planned states etc, I don't know. They weren't 'socialist', and if they claimed to be putting 'Marxian economics' into practices they were even more fraudulent than I realised. Mattley 12:29, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: economic critique

message: There's no mention of the concept of a gift economy in this article, which I find quite surprising, because the concepts are almost the same. I mean, they could be used to clear up a lot of things which would normally take a lot of things to say, or if the concept wasn't even mentioned, then oh the horror! 
Also, I find the fact that this article seems to distinguish too much between anarchism and communism. Can we consider anarchism part of, a branch of communism, whereas Marxist-Leninism is the other main branch? -- Natalinasmpf 22:39, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gift economy and anarchism 

message: Sorry if I seem annoying, but I find the skyscraper example rather bad. Maybe in the US skyscrapers are built entirely with private capital, but in other countries that does not seem to be the case. In the Gulf states skyscrapers are mostly built by state-owned companies. In Europe also the states have a lot of influence on skyscraper-building because of zoning laws, etc. Could the same point be made with another example? Luis rib 17:56, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Skyscraper example

message: *Becker, Jasper (1998) Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine'.' Owl Books. ISBN: 0805056688.
*Conquest, Robert (1991) The Great Terror: A Reassessment Oxford University Press ISBN: 0195071328.
*Conquest, Robert (1987) The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine.  Oxford University Press. ISBN: 0195051807.
*Courtois,Stephane; Werth, Nicolas; Panne, Jean-Louis; Paczkowski, Andrzej; Bartosek, Karel;  Margolin, Jean-Louis & Kramer, Mark (1999). The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression. Harvard University Press. ISBN: 0674076087.
*Hamilton-Merritt, Jane (1999) Tragic Mountains: The Hmong, the Americans, and the Secret Wars for Laos, 1942-1992 Indiana University Press. ISBN: 0253207568.
*Jackson, Karl D. (1992) Cambodia, 1975-1978  Princeton University Press ISBN: 069102541X.
*Kakar, M. Hassan (1997)Afghanistan: The Soviet Invasion and the Afghan Response, 1979-1982  University of California Press. ISBN: 0520208935.
*Khlevniuk, Oleg  &  Kozlov, Vladimir (2004) The History of the Gulag : From Collectivization to the Great Terror (Annals of Communism Series) Yale University Pres. ISBN: 0300092849.
*Natsios, Andrew S. (2002) The Great North Korean Famine. Institute of Peace Press. ISBN: 1929223331.
*Nghia M. Vo (2004) The Bamboo Gulag: Political Imprisonment in Communist Vietnam  McFarland & Company ISBN: 0786417145.
*Pipes, Richard (1995) Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime. Vintage. ISBN: 0679761845.
*Rummel, R.J. (1997). Death by Government. Transaction Publishers. ISBN: 1560009276.
*Rummel, R.J. (1996). Lethal Politics: Soviet Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1917. Transaction Publishers ISBN: 1560008873.
*Rummel, R.J. &  Rummel, Rudolph J. (1999). Statistics of Democide: Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1900. Lit Verlag ISBN: 3825840107.
*Todorov, Tzvetan & Zaretsky, Robert (1999). Voices from the Gulag: Life and Death in Communist Bulgaria.  Pennsylvania State University Press. ISBN: 0271019611
*Yakovlev, Alexander (2004). A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia. Yale University Press. ISBN: 0300103220. Ultramarine 04:26, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please write this ñew section in the capitalism article and support it with academic references. It would start an interesting debate. But do not censor the academic research regarding Communist states. You have not given a single academic reference that finds an error in current text. Ultramarine 04:40, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The point that I am making does not require the presentation of extensive research. It should be readily apparent to just about anyone who passed high school history. (World History is a requirement in just about every American high school.) All of those watching this article should be expected to have enough of a grounding in the past to be aware of the fact that the construction of labor camps, mass starvation, and repression of ethnic minorities occurred in noncommunist regimes, and were indeed all too common in both China and Russia before their respective Communist takeovers. That's the only premise of my argument that I am responsible for establishing. With that in mind, your work should be more contextualized and balanced by other possible explanatory variables, like the fact that both China and Russia were engulfed by utter chaos and anarchy before the Communists even came to power. (One would have to be pretty obtuse to expect any group forcibly establishing a new regime to restore order without a considerable amount of bloodshed.) JMaxwell 05:07, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to add your observations, with academic references. The facts are clear and should not be censored. They showed that horrendous human rights violations took place in most or all of the states ruled by Communist parties. If you want to justify these crimes, add your explanation. If you want to give similar charges against capitalism, do so with references. For now, you have only made many claims without a single reference as support. Please read cite your sources and no original research. Ultramarine 09:05, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Then you can read about the fallacy of the hasty generalization. I thought that you would be intelligent enough to realize that the paragraph was nothing more than a huge sweeping generalization without having to name-drop, but since you would rather continue playing games instead of respecting the NPOV policy, I can join you in this pissing contest and start listing off academics myself. For starters, Barrington Moore's Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy relates the class structure of the old regimes the political development of Communist regimes. Skocpol's States and Social Revolutions relates class and state structures of the old regime to political development. I cite these two because their works are the basis of established literature on this subject in comparative politics; if you are interested in other writers in this field, you can go ahead and do a search on Jstor yourself. JMaxwell 09:44, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to justify these crimes, add your explanation. If you want to give similar charges against capitalism, do so with references. I am not setting out to do either of these things. This is a staw man and yet another diversion on your part. The problem is that you are refusing to accept any other possible explanation of these occurrences except Communism, which makes little sense when you consider the basic fact that the construction of labor camps, mass starvation, and repression of ethnic minorities occurred at times in noncommunist regimes, and, moreover, took place at times in both Russia and China before the Communists came along. This is an example of how tricky it is to argue that these poltical patterns are caused by an economic system or an ideology, and why these explantions are for the realm of scholarly journals, not Wikipedia. JMaxwell 09:50, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You understate the magnitude of the situation, the countries themselves were slave labor camps since they shot people trying to escape, there is film footage of it happening for badness sakes!  Denial of the right emigrate is perhaps the most basic human rights violation (for those allowed to live), we could perhaps tolerate some diversity in country oppressiveness if people were living there were doing so voluntarily, but denial of the right to emigrate trumps any apologia these regimes might offer for the measures they use.--Silverback 10:52, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: 1) Are you denying that these crimes took place? Then give academic references 2) Are you saying that similar crimes took place in Capitalist countries? Then give references and write something in the Capitalism article. 3) Are you saying that all the crimes took place during the revolution and that there were no Gulags, terror or mass starvations long after this? Then please give references. You seem to think that  crimes can be excused if there has been similar crimes before which is an absurd idea. It is like justifying Hitler's genocides by stating that the German empire earlier committed genocides in Africa. Ultramarine 11:14, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you speak English? How many times do you have to make the same accusations and say the same things over and over again? Reread what I wrote. If you want to justify these crimes, add your explanation. If you want to give similar charges against capitalism, do so with references. I am not setting out to do either of these things. This is a staw man and yet another diversion on your part. The problem is that you are refusing to accept any other possible explanation of these occurrences except Communism, which makes little sense when you consider the basic fact that the construction of labor camps, mass starvation, and repression of ethnic minorities occurred at times in noncommunist regimes, and, moreover, took place at times in both Russia and China before the Communists came along.... You want to claim that these things were caused only by Communism, independent of other factors, when in reality hisotry was more complex. JMaxwell 20:56, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are ignoring my questions and statements in more recent replies. I will go all the way to arbitration if there is any attempt at censorship of very well-documented historical facts. Ultramarine 21:04, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You keep on turn my statements into strawmen, attributing motives to me that I'm not working for. You asked for sources, and I gave them to you. There is indeed writing on China and Russia that does not attribute all the problems in those two countries to Communist boogymen... Go ahead and take this to arbitration. Your work is POV and you are acting unreasonable. I'm sure that will be evident to any less fanatical person. JMaxwell 21:09, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  None of your sources explain why the human rights violations by Communist states should be censored from the article. Add to the text that there is "writing on China and Russia that does not attribute all the problems in those two countries to Communist boogymen". This is no excuse for excluding the very well-documented historical research. Should the article about Nazism censor the human rights crimes because there are some books which have a different opinion? Ultramarine 21:21, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Damn you're being really dense. My point isn't to keep information out, just to balance it with more information, or get rid of it if the writers can manage to present it within the framework of NPOV. The problem is not necessarily what you are observing, but the lack of attention to other areas of academic literature when it comes to causation. JMaxwell 21:31, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then add the information, as I have repeatedly stated, with references. Ultramarine 21:34, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: Dear JMaxwell. Since you ask in how far theoretical Communism is responsible for the crimes attributed to Communism, here's an explanation (documented in The Black Book, among many other sources). A) Certainly labour camps, famines, etc. existed before communism. B)In the case of labour camps, these persisted for the simple reason that the general population was opposed to the government and the policies it implemented (e.g. collectivization of land). C) Famines were directly linked to Communist policies. In China's case, the Black Book explains very well how the economic measures of the Great Leap Forward were the prîncipal reason of the famine (e.g. the prohibition to trade grain between provinces, the collectivization of land, the central planification, the reduced labour force following the forced move to industrial production, etc.). This is different from previous famines that took place before communism, and were due to indifference from the central powers. D) In the case of Cambodia, the genocide was directly the consequence of Pol Pot's interpretation of Communism (i.e. an agricultural communism, without money, industry, or services, and where individualism was suppressed to the point of prohibiting glasses), which he tried to preserve by assassinating or starving those that might have seen the flaws in his reasoning. E) You may argue that all these points are irrelevant since they don't reflect real (utopic) communism). This point can be countered by noticing that 1- utopic free market capitalism doesn't exist either; 2- until 1989, all communist parties, and most intellectuals that supported marxism, agreed that the Soviet Union and other countries were on the way of establishing communism; 3- from an economic point of view, many measures typically identified with communism were indeed implemented by Communist countries, with the consequences we know. Luis rib 21:42, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Save your breath. I have heard all of these explanations many times before. I am not saying that I necessarily disagree with them, but that the article should not be based on the above POV premises or other POV premises that recognize that every social and economic structure that has ever developed in China or Russia has had its inherent problems. JMaxwell 23:10, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  References on human rights violations by Communist states 

message: Yes, our article capitalism suffers from the same attempts by utopian advocates. Some claim no capitalist society has ever existed. Someone says it is not propaganda. That implies that a serious theorist might believe this utopian vision could in fact exist. I never met them in real life. What I enountered is people who insisted something good might eventually come out of all the effort, but made excuses for the imperfect contemporary examples. Let's pretend, in short. Fred Bauder 01:03, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
No, a lot of pure capitalist (aka laissez faire) economies have always existed. You can't compare "utopian capitalism" to "utopian communism" - communism was designed for utopia, capitalism was just meant to further the goals of one individual over the other. There is no proposed model for "capitalist utopia", because there was no such thing as a "capitalist manifesto", for instance. You have investment for dummies books, economics books or teachings on how to make money and discussion, but it was never to achieve utopia. Because the system's success is not based on how well the community does: just one individual. Hence, this does not apply. Communism - is an socioeconomic model. Capitalism is a purely economic system. True capitalist societies have always existed, true communist entities that took over countries have never existed. -- Natalinasmpf 02:26, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Response to dialogue

message: Totalitiarianism is sociologically impossible, and has existed no where except in the works of fiction, and the minds of writers such as Orwell. Utopianism, which often seems to be similiar to totalitarianism; is the same. The terms should be totally striked from the article, atleast when talking of scientific communism, such as Marxism(-Leninism). --Mista-X 17:46, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Which terms? The term "utopianism"/"utopian", or the terms classified as being "utopian"? Also totalitarianism, yes that is true, it means when the government has total control (to an extent), bu t the idea "approaching totalitarianism" could be a true statement. Generally, if someone is starving, but say, has only been starving for a week, and if no one continues to give him food, it would be correct to say he's approaching death, no? -- Natalinasmpf 17:54, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Totalitarianism and Utopianism are Sociological impossibilities

message: Unfortunately, the commies here on Wikipedia prevent communism from rightfully being treated in the same manner as nazism and fascism. Therefore, the crimes of communism are whitewashed, rationalized and equivocated away.
--Unsigned comment by User:212.202.51.84 Slac speak up! 22:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: To be frank, it would be nice if the editing process on this page could be something other than a "dialectic" between communist-sympathetic and communist-antipathetic users. But I don't particularly think name-calling is going to help anything much. Slac speak up! 22:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Crimes? Or hijackings by state capitalists? -- Natalinasmpf 17:54, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Communism is Totalitarian 

message: The barometer is exchanges at prices that reflect supply and demand.  If a person chooses to exchange x which he has for y in the market place, it is assumed in economics that he considers himself better off.  The assumption may not be valid if the person is stupid or lacks information about the goods being exchanged and needs big brother to make the decisons for him to achieve happiness.  But the core of economics gives the individual a little credit for having better information about his own preferences and what would satify him than others making the decison for him would.  This is the reason both sides in an exchange usually say "thank you", otherwise they would be making the exchange, since if the goods were of equal value to each they would not make the exhange since the transaction cost would make them better off with their status quo.  Furthermore, if a person has a medium of exchange like money and the market has many goods which he could exchange it for, his purchase of x instead of y or z, displays his preference and satisfies him more than making  the other choices or no exchange at all.  Perhaps you don't accept this economic assumption, it depends on whether you give individuals a little credit for being able to autonomously make their own decisions.
In a communist mass society, where prices are set by the labor theory of value, people will respond the same way to price signals, if those signals don't also reflect the rarity of materials or the demand of them for higher uses for example, the fact that silver's value should reflect its usefulness in electronics and photography, what is to prevent it from all being used up for silverware.  When prices do reflect demand, silver will go to where it will produce the most economic value, because uses that produce more value will be able to bid more for it.  Note that a market system, also values less utilitarian things, such as silverware, but those who value it, had to value it more than others, since they had to value it enough to bid it away from other uses.  Perhaps a person is stupid for valuing a silver spoon more than a radio, or film, but that is the subjective nature of value.  Markets and prices tend to allocate things to achieve greater overall satisfaction and efficiency, at least where, information costs, transaction costs and externalities are low.--Silverback 00:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you might start by reading some micro-economics and price theory.  Perhaps market economics is a POV subject, but even so, its theory of price, efficiency, and even problems have been fleshed out and practiced, much more than whatever the communist equivilent would be in a mass society that had a minimal or limited state.  Until that is worked, perhaps communes had best interact with the world as basic survival units (BSUs) within existing free market societies.  The can price their goods as they wish, and participate in markets exchanging with other BSUs such as individuals, families, state sanctioned limited liability corporations (they can't exist without state sanction, so should be thought of as part of the state), etc.  Of course, when participating in the markets, they might find the prices quite different, but arbitragers will step in to reduce any inbalances.--Silverback 00:20, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: Interesting response, I mentioned a theory from an established field and then I mention a proposal for how communes might co-exist and operate within a market economy and you respond with "it's far from fact".  Frankly, you aren't passing the Turing Test.--Silverback 04:03, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: It is a robustly confirmed theory, I suppose you think the theories of evolution and relativity should have to be presented the same way.  It would be a herculean task to present all the supporters of these theories, and the list of contesters, would either be some crackpots, or some bleeding edge tweakers who really accept the theory as 90+% right.--Silverback 00:50, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: There are not many universities without microeconomics and price theory courses.--Silverback 02:11, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: You're right, I wouldn't.  I would just pick a broadly distributed comprehensive text, such as Exchange and Production: Theory in Use by Alchian & Allen., that way I wouldn't have to make a Darwin or Dawkin's type of choice.  --Silverback 12:24, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: No, there is a lot of unreferenced material in the article. The culture on the this page seems to be to achieve balance in unreferenced material.  In this type of culture, if certain info, is seriously challenged, as patently false or illogical or nonsensisical then there might be a specific request or challenge to document it.  We give each other space here, people present their arguments and the reader has the burden of weighing whether they make sense or not.   For instance, in the human nature section, there is a poor example of "altruistic" human behavior, the mother caring for the child, which is universal mammalian behavior and which evolutionary theory never had any problem explaining.  Certain risky behaviors in situations where the genetic relationship was more distant or less certain is where the research was grappling with.  And the idea the capitalism suppresses altruism and communism might release these bonds is speculation bordering on nonsense.  However, I credit the reader with being able to detect what might have rigor behind it and what does not.  Now if you want to go through the article with a fine tooth comb, and find things you can challenge with credible and on-point references you will be a formidible contributer and closer to passing the turing test.  However, such rigor might disturb the communitarian peacefulness of the communism page. 8-)  --Silverback 19:05, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Unreferenced or not, I think everyone understands the idea of an open market. However, the unproven part is whether market price-setting actually does result in higher levels of individual satisfaction. Why would it not? Simply because market forces rely on relatively short-term vision and are not coherent. Large-scale long-term projects beneficial to all are rarely initiated by market entities. Nor does the general direction of the market necessarily provide greater individual satisfaction. One might consider that if the resources invested in the perfume market (for instance) were instead allocated to general healthcare and/or dietary balance, satisfaction may very well be increased even for those individuals who would ordinarily have purchased perfume.--Csmcsm 01:33, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It results in higher satisfaction than the consumer started off with, since the exchanges are voluntary.  This is not being compared to what some omniscient planner would do assuming he knew what was really best, it is being compared to the same consumer exchanges where instead the prices are set on the labor theory of value, prices that don't reflect the scarcity of resources or the demand for higher uses.  Under the labor theory of value, the price would be the same for steel spoons as for silver spoons if their manufacturing and supply processes required the same amount of labor.  Scarce resource like silver or energy, and alternate demand from higher uses such as silver in electronics or photographic plates (perhaps for X-rays) is not reflected in the price and thus not in the consumer decision.  The assumption is that the consumer would make better decisions with better information, admittedly this gives the consumer credit for a little intelligence and personal knowledge of his/her own values.  You view perfume as a short term decision that ignores the long term posibilities, but it may the proper longer term choice in the consumer's value system, if for instance it enables the procurement of a more fertile mate with higher quality genes (someone really, really good looking?).  You talk as if noone should ever accept risks for short term pleasure, as if, in a communist society, there would be no mountain climbing, sky diving, promiscuous sexuality, jaywalking, etc. because these don't achieve some ominiscient level of satisfaction or contribute to better health care.--Silverback 05:32, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, you're not answering my points (as usual). Under a market system, resources are dictated mostly by selfish individuals with short-term goals. I've accepted that a communist nation is likely to set the wrong prices with regard to individual demand. But you're not considering the downside of the free-market system: which is that commodities that are inefficient at raising individual satisfaction in general can force the price of efficient commodities to increase. To follow your example, individual demand for decorative silverware will force the cost of X-Ray plates up in a free market, despite the fact that decorative silverware is grossly inefficient in comparison at raising individual satisfaction. Why is it that capitalist nations rely on communist structures to deliver basic public goods? --Csmcsm 20:50, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ruy states: "As far as "lower levels of individual satisfaction" - what? This is ridiculous. What barometer are you using to measure that?" 

message: While what is referred to here on the wiki as communism isn't what I think of when I hear the word (I think of State Communism, i.e. pol pot & stalin), it does seem to be an important concept. This "communalism" is actually very agreeable to me as a spiritual person, I believe strongly in altruism. Unfortunately, these altruistic sociological theories only seem to work as far as the commune, and even then only when there is a solid religious foundation, and often a charismatic leader as well. Frankly, I think the people who desire to attempt Anarcho-Communism on a grand scale, or without a focus on God, have little comprehension of economics, psychology, sociology, or... history. They forget that the shiny idealism they believe so strongly in was once shared by those radicals who led to Stalin, Pol Pot, and every form of state communism. They forget that not everyone is altruistic, and indeed, that many are violent conquerors, or simply minor parasites, looking to revel in excess at the disadvantage of others. Every time I hear someone like Noam Chomsky speak, my mind wanders to visions of Black shirts beating political opponents and forcing them to drink castor oil, Snowball being chased from the farm by dogs, and Trotsky getting stabbed with an ice pick. No matter how pretty the utopia you envision, reality will always eventually step in. Sam Spade Wants you to vote! 13:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Politics, economics, and psychology 

message: I don't understand how the Deng quote needs contextualising, or how it is POV. We are reporting the judgement of many that China has made significantly pro-capitalist economic reforms; the quote is a support of this view. Don't interpret this as a challenge; I'm just genuinely confused, and don't understand the need for reversion. In the interests of accuracy, isn't the best approach to attempt to provide necessary contextualisation? Lacrimosus 07:47, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The rest of the quotation was, "Poverty is not socialism. To be rich is glorious." Yet, the way it was inserted into the article seems to imply that Deng was dismissing communism and admitting the superiority of capitalism. Also, is his conception of what it means to be "rich" any different in China from the prevailing one in the West? One quotation, at any rate one that can be interpreted in multiple ways, does not illustrate a complicated phenomena that accompany China's development... This quotation adds nothing to the article other than confusion. (There are already links concerning Chinese economic reform that are sufficient.) Please remove it. 172 08:22, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that he said it, at the time he was allowing market reforms, would indicate that he thought central planning, if not communism itself, was inhibiting wealth creation.  The quote does not seem confuse any issues.  If it seems a mixed message, perhaps that accurately reflects the state of affairs in the real world as well.--Silverback 02:14, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Deng quote

message: The article itself seems to have become much better of late in respect of not identifying communism exclusively with Leninism and the former USSR, though there is some way to go in this respect. The use of the hammer and sickle logo and its description as 'the international symbol of communism' is an example. It wouldn't be regarded as such by left communists, council communists, most Trotskyites, Anarcho-communists and other advocates of a communist society (granted it would often depend on how far you were from 1917 when you asked them). The appearance of the hammer and sickle at the top of the banner advertising the communism series of articles is likewise inappropriate, given that that series contains many articles on schools of thought that were extremely critical of, if not hostile to, the USSR. Shall we consign it to the dustbin of history? Mattley 23:59, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hammer & Sickle 

message: *Opponents of communism point out that the number of people killed are more than one hundred million. And that the methods used included concentration camps, mass starvation and ethnic genocides. [ 
** This is addresssed already in a way that avoids violating Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View with the following "...presiding over periods of repressive rule that saw tens of millions of casualties (see also Communist state)." In addition, you links have been added to the text. Further detail is found in the articles on the histories of the various Communist regimes and Communist state.
*And that they [concentration camps, mass starvation and ethnic genocides] took place in almost every communistic state.
**This is a description of the Stalinist USSR, which saw a scale of violence and terror unseen in Communist regimes that came to power after the Second World War, such as Cuba.    
*And in the Soviet Union continued even when that state was a superpower."
**The terror was abated significantly following Stalin's death, with Khrushchev's de-Stalinization. To make it clear that the USSR and other Communist governments were still nevertheless repressive single party regimes, but in a way that does not over-simplify history and violate NPOV, I added: "In the second half of the twentieth century, movements that threatened Communist Parties' monopoly on power, such Czechoslovakia's Prague Spring and China's Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, continued to be suppressed. Given these incidents and their often-violent histories, Communist Party-led regimes are often associated with human rights abuses, especially in the West."
*They also point out that every communistic state to date have been a dictatorship.
**The text states, "Because they were governed by monopolistic parties..." Those who argue that every Communist regime has been a dictatorship base that on the fact that a single party has a monopoly on power, so this point is already addressed while following NPOV. 
*Some supporters of communism claim that these states were in fact not communistic. Opponents claim that using the same argument, it is not possible to criticize capitalistic societies, as it can be claimed that apparently capitalistic states are in fact not capitalistic.
**This is neither here nor there. They were Communist Party run states, and to dispute this would be more of a stretch than arguing that the world is flat. They were not "communistic" though (with a small "c"). Communism is a social system based on common ownership of all property, an ideal that Communist Party run regimes claim that they are attempting to realize, but one that never has been realized; and this cannot be disputed given every single definition of "communism" (small "c") available.
In all, note many of the recent additions under the "violence" section (formerly "revolutionary violence"-- broadened to include the entire span of their rule) that incorporate the topics that Ultramarine is attempting to bring to light. 172 00:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely people acknowledge that historically Communist states have held communist characteristics, even if they have not fulfilled Marx's dream of "true" communism (which, given the circumstances necessary, is utterly impossible) J. Parker Stone 01:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Stick with standard definitions. Communism is based on common ownership of all property. Socialism is based on state ownership of the means of production. 172 03:00, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: It should be noted that millions continud to be killed even after Stalin and Mao. And that the deaths occured in almost all Communist states. However, the text is a marked ímprovement. Earler there were NO mention of the millions of killed, neither in this article or in that about Communist states. I will restore the last argument. The Communist states certainly tried to implement the ideas of Marx and called themselves Communist. And were societes were the state owned all property.Ultramarine 08:50, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Communist states certainly tried to implement the ideas of Marx and called themselves Communist. And were societes were the state owned all property. This is covered elsewhere in the article. Keep in mind that there are also articles on Communist state, Marxism, and socialism. The Communism article is the on the ideology of Communism (large "C") and communism (small "c") as a social system; and it already veers way too off topic with discussions of socialism and the political history of various Communist regimes. Re: millions continud to be killed even after Stalin and Mao Not in the Soviet Union under Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko, and Gorbachev. Not in China under Deng Xiaoping, Jiang Zemin, and Hu Jintao. Perhaps you are referring to Pol Pot's rule. 172 09:06, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read more history. Soviet Union  China You seem to think that facts that contradict your view of the world are POV. But they are just facts, not opinions. Calling deaths in concentration camps or due to deliberate mass starvation for casualties is POV. I will change the statements so that the fact are clear. Do not censor them, even if you do not like the facts. Ultramarine 14:16, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do not attribute this to POV. The reverts are more the result of problems posed by your non-native English, which is leaving this section a jumbled mess. The article goes into a sufficient level of detail mentioning tens of millions of casualties. The political histories of the relevant Communist regimes can be found in articles on the History of the Soviet Union and the History of the People's Republic of China. And, yes, it is POV to deny that the terror was abated significantly in the Soviet Union and China after the deaths of Stalin and Mao, respectively. 172 02:03, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Then change the English. Do not censor the facts. You again insist that deaths in concentration camps or due to deliberate mass starvation are casualties? You have already demonstrated your lack of historic knowledge by claiming that millions did not continue to be killed after Stalin and Mao. Keep the facts so you and others can learn. Ultramarine 04:39, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a historian, so you can show me all the libertarian polemics and websites that you possibly can will not have shown me anything new to me. Writing NPOV is not just a matter of inserting "opponents say," "supporters say" anywhere you can possibly fit it but rather writing specifically and precisely. Internal exile and concentration camps in Siberia long predate the Soviet Union, as do mass starvations, so they are not unique to Communist rule. Thus, I will integrate your observations of famine and starvation into the article in way that maintains proper historical writing, specifically mentioning the Gulags and the famine coinciding with collectivization. 172 06:34, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to be very afraid to let others know that killing continued until the fall of communism in the Soviet Union, under Lenin, after Mao and in all Communist countries. Add that killings also took place in Russia before the revolution, but do not remove that they continued as long as the communists were in power. Why was there NO mention of the Gulags in the articles prior to this discussion, if you had knowledge of them? Ultramarine 07:03, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Enough with the finger-pointing. (Libertas?) I wrote only very small portions of the article; and this is not the article on the history of the soviet Union. 172 07:07, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Much better now. I disagree to "casualties". Which is " a military person lost through death, wounds, injury, sickness, internment, or capture or through being missing in action". And if these states were not communist, then one can similarly claim that apparently capitalist states are not capitalist. Ultramarine 07:42, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Explanations for the removal of Ultramarine's text

message: This article is filled with Trotskyist slants. Stalin suppressed ALL dissent? Find me a quote from Stalin where he actually says it is neccesary to "suppress all dissent". He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism. In fact, there is no Stalinism. Stalinism is term invented by Trots for Marxism-Leninism. Trotskyism is a deviation from Marxism-Leninism.
* Just out of interest - are you or have you ever been a member of the Communist party? Average Earthman 17:22, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I smell a Trot! 

message: Not going to go into too much detail here, since it has been well covered elsewhere, notably by Karl Marx... Here is the addition made by Luis 
*According to critics, communists forget, however, that the production process requires more than just labour: machines (i.e. "capital"). These machines have a cost, which has to be included in the price of the produced good. Indeed, a T-shirt can nowadays be either produced with lots of labour (for instance in China) or with many machines (in Europe). Modern economic theory would imply that both T-shirts should have the same price (since they are essentially the same), no matter how much labour went into them.
Communists don't forget that capital makes up part of the cost of production of a commodity, though they do see capital as 'dead' or 'congealed' labour. There is no conflict between Marx and "Modern economic theory" on the point you claim. Yes, these T-shirts exchange at the same price despite having required different amounts of labour for their production because, in Marxian terms, their value is determined by the average amount of labour required for their production. There are plenty of valid criticisms that could be made of Marx, but this one is just based on a misapprehension I'm afraid. See Wages, Price and Profit or Wage Labour and Capital for more if you like. They explain the Labour theory of value very cogently and address the assumptions you are making. Mattley 19:46, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Does the theory explain how the congealed labor in the capital equipment just happens to come out equal to the labor in the labor intensive process?  That coincidence sounds too unlikely to be true.  There wouldn't be much point to the machines if they didn't save net labor in the long run.--Silverback 10:59, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not completely sure what you're driving at in that first sentence there. It isn't a question of amounts of labour being equal - because it is not the amount of labour in a particular commodity but the average amount required. In general, that is the point of introducing machinery: it means that a capitalist is temporarily able to produce commodities more cheaply than competitors yet realise a greater profit because he would be producing below the socially necessary cost of production for said commodities. This competitive advantage, in a real-world situation, would be of very short-duration, since competitors would also increase their capital-intensity. Is this not covered at Labour theory of value or somewhere? As for centrally planned states etc, I don't know. They weren't 'socialist', and if they claimed to be putting 'Marxian economics' into practices they were even more fraudulent than I realised. Mattley 12:29, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: economic critique

message: There's no mention of the concept of a gift economy in this article, which I find quite surprising, because the concepts are almost the same. I mean, they could be used to clear up a lot of things which would normally take a lot of things to say, or if the concept wasn't even mentioned, then oh the horror! 
Also, I find the fact that this article seems to distinguish too much between anarchism and communism. Can we consider anarchism part of, a branch of communism, whereas Marxist-Leninism is the other main branch? -- Natalinasmpf 22:39, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gift economy and anarchism 

message: Sorry if I seem annoying, but I find the skyscraper example rather bad. Maybe in the US skyscrapers are built entirely with private capital, but in other countries that does not seem to be the case. In the Gulf states skyscrapers are mostly built by state-owned companies. In Europe also the states have a lot of influence on skyscraper-building because of zoning laws, etc. Could the same point be made with another example? Luis rib 17:56, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Skyscraper example

message: *Becker, Jasper (1998) Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine'.' Owl Books. ISBN: 0805056688.
*Conquest, Robert (1991) The Great Terror: A Reassessment Oxford University Press ISBN: 0195071328.
*Conquest, Robert (1987) The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine.  Oxford University Press. ISBN: 0195051807.
*Courtois,Stephane; Werth, Nicolas; Panne, Jean-Louis; Paczkowski, Andrzej; Bartosek, Karel;  Margolin, Jean-Louis & Kramer, Mark (1999). The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression. Harvard University Press. ISBN: 0674076087.
*Hamilton-Merritt, Jane (1999) Tragic Mountains: The Hmong, the Americans, and the Secret Wars for Laos, 1942-1992 Indiana University Press. ISBN: 0253207568.
*Jackson, Karl D. (1992) Cambodia, 1975-1978  Princeton University Press ISBN: 069102541X.
*Kakar, M. Hassan (1997)Afghanistan: The Soviet Invasion and the Afghan Response, 1979-1982  University of California Press. ISBN: 0520208935.
*Khlevniuk, Oleg  &  Kozlov, Vladimir (2004) The History of the Gulag : From Collectivization to the Great Terror (Annals of Communism Series) Yale University Pres. ISBN: 0300092849.
*Natsios, Andrew S. (2002) The Great North Korean Famine. Institute of Peace Press. ISBN: 1929223331.
*Nghia M. Vo (2004) The Bamboo Gulag: Political Imprisonment in Communist Vietnam  McFarland & Company ISBN: 0786417145.
*Pipes, Richard (1995) Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime. Vintage. ISBN: 0679761845.
*Rummel, R.J. (1997). Death by Government. Transaction Publishers. ISBN: 1560009276.
*Rummel, R.J. (1996). Lethal Politics: Soviet Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1917. Transaction Publishers ISBN: 1560008873.
*Rummel, R.J. &  Rummel, Rudolph J. (1999). Statistics of Democide: Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1900. Lit Verlag ISBN: 3825840107.
*Todorov, Tzvetan & Zaretsky, Robert (1999). Voices from the Gulag: Life and Death in Communist Bulgaria.  Pennsylvania State University Press. ISBN: 0271019611
*Yakovlev, Alexander (2004). A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia. Yale University Press. ISBN: 0300103220. Ultramarine 04:26, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please write this ñew section in the capitalism article and support it with academic references. It would start an interesting debate. But do not censor the academic research regarding Communist states. You have not given a single academic reference that finds an error in current text. Ultramarine 04:40, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The point that I am making does not require the presentation of extensive research. It should be readily apparent to just about anyone who passed high school history. (World History is a requirement in just about every American high school.) All of those watching this article should be expected to have enough of a grounding in the past to be aware of the fact that the construction of labor camps, mass starvation, and repression of ethnic minorities occurred in noncommunist regimes, and were indeed all too common in both China and Russia before their respective Communist takeovers. That's the only premise of my argument that I am responsible for establishing. With that in mind, your work should be more contextualized and balanced by other possible explanatory variables, like the fact that both China and Russia were engulfed by utter chaos and anarchy before the Communists even came to power. (One would have to be pretty obtuse to expect any group forcibly establishing a new regime to restore order without a considerable amount of bloodshed.) JMaxwell 05:07, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to add your observations, with academic references. The facts are clear and should not be censored. They showed that horrendous human rights violations took place in most or all of the states ruled by Communist parties. If you want to justify these crimes, add your explanation. If you want to give similar charges against capitalism, do so with references. For now, you have only made many claims without a single reference as support. Please read cite your sources and no original research. Ultramarine 09:05, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Then you can read about the fallacy of the hasty generalization. I thought that you would be intelligent enough to realize that the paragraph was nothing more than a huge sweeping generalization without having to name-drop, but since you would rather continue playing games instead of respecting the NPOV policy, I can join you in this pissing contest and start listing off academics myself. For starters, Barrington Moore's Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy relates the class structure of the old regimes the political development of Communist regimes. Skocpol's States and Social Revolutions relates class and state structures of the old regime to political development. I cite these two because their works are the basis of established literature on this subject in comparative politics; if you are interested in other writers in this field, you can go ahead and do a search on Jstor yourself. JMaxwell 09:44, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to justify these crimes, add your explanation. If you want to give similar charges against capitalism, do so with references. I am not setting out to do either of these things. This is a staw man and yet another diversion on your part. The problem is that you are refusing to accept any other possible explanation of these occurrences except Communism, which makes little sense when you consider the basic fact that the construction of labor camps, mass starvation, and repression of ethnic minorities occurred at times in noncommunist regimes, and, moreover, took place at times in both Russia and China before the Communists came along. This is an example of how tricky it is to argue that these poltical patterns are caused by an economic system or an ideology, and why these explantions are for the realm of scholarly journals, not Wikipedia. JMaxwell 09:50, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You understate the magnitude of the situation, the countries themselves were slave labor camps since they shot people trying to escape, there is film footage of it happening for badness sakes!  Denial of the right emigrate is perhaps the most basic human rights violation (for those allowed to live), we could perhaps tolerate some diversity in country oppressiveness if people were living there were doing so voluntarily, but denial of the right to emigrate trumps any apologia these regimes might offer for the measures they use.--Silverback 10:52, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: 1) Are you denying that these crimes took place? Then give academic references 2) Are you saying that similar crimes took place in Capitalist countries? Then give references and write something in the Capitalism article. 3) Are you saying that all the crimes took place during the revolution and that there were no Gulags, terror or mass starvations long after this? Then please give references. You seem to think that  crimes can be excused if there has been similar crimes before which is an absurd idea. It is like justifying Hitler's genocides by stating that the German empire earlier committed genocides in Africa. Ultramarine 11:14, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you speak English? How many times do you have to make the same accusations and say the same things over and over again? Reread what I wrote. If you want to justify these crimes, add your explanation. If you want to give similar charges against capitalism, do so with references. I am not setting out to do either of these things. This is a staw man and yet another diversion on your part. The problem is that you are refusing to accept any other possible explanation of these occurrences except Communism, which makes little sense when you consider the basic fact that the construction of labor camps, mass starvation, and repression of ethnic minorities occurred at times in noncommunist regimes, and, moreover, took place at times in both Russia and China before the Communists came along.... You want to claim that these things were caused only by Communism, independent of other factors, when in reality hisotry was more complex. JMaxwell 20:56, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are ignoring my questions and statements in more recent replies. I will go all the way to arbitration if there is any attempt at censorship of very well-documented historical facts. Ultramarine 21:04, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You keep on turn my statements into strawmen, attributing motives to me that I'm not working for. You asked for sources, and I gave them to you. There is indeed writing on China and Russia that does not attribute all the problems in those two countries to Communist boogymen... Go ahead and take this to arbitration. Your work is POV and you are acting unreasonable. I'm sure that will be evident to any less fanatical person. JMaxwell 21:09, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  None of your sources explain why the human rights violations by Communist states should be censored from the article. Add to the text that there is "writing on China and Russia that does not attribute all the problems in those two countries to Communist boogymen". This is no excuse for excluding the very well-documented historical research. Should the article about Nazism censor the human rights crimes because there are some books which have a different opinion? Ultramarine 21:21, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Damn you're being really dense. My point isn't to keep information out, just to balance it with more information, or get rid of it if the writers can manage to present it within the framework of NPOV. The problem is not necessarily what you are observing, but the lack of attention to other areas of academic literature when it comes to causation. JMaxwell 21:31, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then add the information, as I have repeatedly stated, with references. Ultramarine 21:34, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: Dear JMaxwell. Since you ask in how far theoretical Communism is responsible for the crimes attributed to Communism, here's an explanation (documented in The Black Book, among many other sources). A) Certainly labour camps, famines, etc. existed before communism. B)In the case of labour camps, these persisted for the simple reason that the general population was opposed to the government and the policies it implemented (e.g. collectivization of land). C) Famines were directly linked to Communist policies. In China's case, the Black Book explains very well how the economic measures of the Great Leap Forward were the prîncipal reason of the famine (e.g. the prohibition to trade grain between provinces, the collectivization of land, the central planification, the reduced labour force following the forced move to industrial production, etc.). This is different from previous famines that took place before communism, and were due to indifference from the central powers. D) In the case of Cambodia, the genocide was directly the consequence of Pol Pot's interpretation of Communism (i.e. an agricultural communism, without money, industry, or services, and where individualism was suppressed to the point of prohibiting glasses), which he tried to preserve by assassinating or starving those that might have seen the flaws in his reasoning. E) You may argue that all these points are irrelevant since they don't reflect real (utopic) communism). This point can be countered by noticing that 1- utopic free market capitalism doesn't exist either; 2- until 1989, all communist parties, and most intellectuals that supported marxism, agreed that the Soviet Union and other countries were on the way of establishing communism; 3- from an economic point of view, many measures typically identified with communism were indeed implemented by Communist countries, with the consequences we know. Luis rib 21:42, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Save your breath. I have heard all of these explanations many times before. I am not saying that I necessarily disagree with them, but that the article should not be based on the above POV premises or other POV premises that recognize that every social and economic structure that has ever developed in China or Russia has had its inherent problems. JMaxwell 23:10, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  References on human rights violations by Communist states 

message: Yes, our article capitalism suffers from the same attempts by utopian advocates. Some claim no capitalist society has ever existed. Someone says it is not propaganda. That implies that a serious theorist might believe this utopian vision could in fact exist. I never met them in real life. What I enountered is people who insisted something good might eventually come out of all the effort, but made excuses for the imperfect contemporary examples. Let's pretend, in short. Fred Bauder 01:03, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
No, a lot of pure capitalist (aka laissez faire) economies have always existed. You can't compare "utopian capitalism" to "utopian communism" - communism was designed for utopia, capitalism was just meant to further the goals of one individual over the other. There is no proposed model for "capitalist utopia", because there was no such thing as a "capitalist manifesto", for instance. You have investment for dummies books, economics books or teachings on how to make money and discussion, but it was never to achieve utopia. Because the system's success is not based on how well the community does: just one individual. Hence, this does not apply. Communism - is an socioeconomic model. Capitalism is a purely economic system. True capitalist societies have always existed, true communist entities that took over countries have never existed. -- Natalinasmpf 02:26, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Response to dialogue

message: Totalitiarianism is sociologically impossible, and has existed no where except in the works of fiction, and the minds of writers such as Orwell. Utopianism, which often seems to be similiar to totalitarianism; is the same. The terms should be totally striked from the article, atleast when talking of scientific communism, such as Marxism(-Leninism). --Mista-X 17:46, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Which terms? The term "utopianism"/"utopian", or the terms classified as being "utopian"? Also totalitarianism, yes that is true, it means when the government has total control (to an extent), bu t the idea "approaching totalitarianism" could be a true statement. Generally, if someone is starving, but say, has only been starving for a week, and if no one continues to give him food, it would be correct to say he's approaching death, no? -- Natalinasmpf 17:54, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Totalitarianism and Utopianism are Sociological impossibilities

message: Unfortunately, the commies here on Wikipedia prevent communism from rightfully being treated in the same manner as nazism and fascism. Therefore, the crimes of communism are whitewashed, rationalized and equivocated away.
--Unsigned comment by User:212.202.51.84 Slac speak up! 22:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: To be frank, it would be nice if the editing process on this page could be something other than a "dialectic" between communist-sympathetic and communist-antipathetic users. But I don't particularly think name-calling is going to help anything much. Slac speak up! 22:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Crimes? Or hijackings by state capitalists? -- Natalinasmpf 17:54, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Communism is Totalitarian 

message: The barometer is exchanges at prices that reflect supply and demand.  If a person chooses to exchange x which he has for y in the market place, it is assumed in economics that he considers himself better off.  The assumption may not be valid if the person is stupid or lacks information about the goods being exchanged and needs big brother to make the decisons for him to achieve happiness.  But the core of economics gives the individual a little credit for having better information about his own preferences and what would satify him than others making the decison for him would.  This is the reason both sides in an exchange usually say "thank you", otherwise they would be making the exchange, since if the goods were of equal value to each they would not make the exhange since the transaction cost would make them better off with their status quo.  Furthermore, if a person has a medium of exchange like money and the market has many goods which he could exchange it for, his purchase of x instead of y or z, displays his preference and satisfies him more than making  the other choices or no exchange at all.  Perhaps you don't accept this economic assumption, it depends on whether you give individuals a little credit for being able to autonomously make their own decisions.
In a communist mass society, where prices are set by the labor theory of value, people will respond the same way to price signals, if those signals don't also reflect the rarity of materials or the demand of them for higher uses for example, the fact that silver's value should reflect its usefulness in electronics and photography, what is to prevent it from all being used up for silverware.  When prices do reflect demand, silver will go to where it will produce the most economic value, because uses that produce more value will be able to bid more for it.  Note that a market system, also values less utilitarian things, such as silverware, but those who value it, had to value it more than others, since they had to value it enough to bid it away from other uses.  Perhaps a person is stupid for valuing a silver spoon more than a radio, or film, but that is the subjective nature of value.  Markets and prices tend to allocate things to achieve greater overall satisfaction and efficiency, at least where, information costs, transaction costs and externalities are low.--Silverback 00:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you might start by reading some micro-economics and price theory.  Perhaps market economics is a POV subject, but even so, its theory of price, efficiency, and even problems have been fleshed out and practiced, much more than whatever the communist equivilent would be in a mass society that had a minimal or limited state.  Until that is worked, perhaps communes had best interact with the world as basic survival units (BSUs) within existing free market societies.  The can price their goods as they wish, and participate in markets exchanging with other BSUs such as individuals, families, state sanctioned limited liability corporations (they can't exist without state sanction, so should be thought of as part of the state), etc.  Of course, when participating in the markets, they might find the prices quite different, but arbitragers will step in to reduce any inbalances.--Silverback 00:20, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: Interesting response, I mentioned a theory from an established field and then I mention a proposal for how communes might co-exist and operate within a market economy and you respond with "it's far from fact".  Frankly, you aren't passing the Turing Test.--Silverback 04:03, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: It is a robustly confirmed theory, I suppose you think the theories of evolution and relativity should have to be presented the same way.  It would be a herculean task to present all the supporters of these theories, and the list of contesters, would either be some crackpots, or some bleeding edge tweakers who really accept the theory as 90+% right.--Silverback 00:50, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: There are not many universities without microeconomics and price theory courses.--Silverback 02:11, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: You're right, I wouldn't.  I would just pick a broadly distributed comprehensive text, such as Exchange and Production: Theory in Use by Alchian & Allen., that way I wouldn't have to make a Darwin or Dawkin's type of choice.  --Silverback 12:24, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: No, there is a lot of unreferenced material in the article. The culture on the this page seems to be to achieve balance in unreferenced material.  In this type of culture, if certain info, is seriously challenged, as patently false or illogical or nonsensisical then there might be a specific request or challenge to document it.  We give each other space here, people present their arguments and the reader has the burden of weighing whether they make sense or not.   For instance, in the human nature section, there is a poor example of "altruistic" human behavior, the mother caring for the child, which is universal mammalian behavior and which evolutionary theory never had any problem explaining.  Certain risky behaviors in situations where the genetic relationship was more distant or less certain is where the research was grappling with.  And the idea the capitalism suppresses altruism and communism might release these bonds is speculation bordering on nonsense.  However, I credit the reader with being able to detect what might have rigor behind it and what does not.  Now if you want to go through the article with a fine tooth comb, and find things you can challenge with credible and on-point references you will be a formidible contributer and closer to passing the turing test.  However, such rigor might disturb the communitarian peacefulness of the communism page. 8-)  --Silverback 19:05, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Unreferenced or not, I think everyone understands the idea of an open market. However, the unproven part is whether market price-setting actually does result in higher levels of individual satisfaction. Why would it not? Simply because market forces rely on relatively short-term vision and are not coherent. Large-scale long-term projects beneficial to all are rarely initiated by market entities. Nor does the general direction of the market necessarily provide greater individual satisfaction. One might consider that if the resources invested in the perfume market (for instance) were instead allocated to general healthcare and/or dietary balance, satisfaction may very well be increased even for those individuals who would ordinarily have purchased perfume.--Csmcsm 01:33, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It results in higher satisfaction than the consumer started off with, since the exchanges are voluntary.  This is not being compared to what some omniscient planner would do assuming he knew what was really best, it is being compared to the same consumer exchanges where instead the prices are set on the labor theory of value, prices that don't reflect the scarcity of resources or the demand for higher uses.  Under the labor theory of value, the price would be the same for steel spoons as for silver spoons if their manufacturing and supply processes required the same amount of labor.  Scarce resource like silver or energy, and alternate demand from higher uses such as silver in electronics or photographic plates (perhaps for X-rays) is not reflected in the price and thus not in the consumer decision.  The assumption is that the consumer would make better decisions with better information, admittedly this gives the consumer credit for a little intelligence and personal knowledge of his/her own values.  You view perfume as a short term decision that ignores the long term posibilities, but it may the proper longer term choice in the consumer's value system, if for instance it enables the procurement of a more fertile mate with higher quality genes (someone really, really good looking?).  You talk as if noone should ever accept risks for short term pleasure, as if, in a communist society, there would be no mountain climbing, sky diving, promiscuous sexuality, jaywalking, etc. because these don't achieve some ominiscient level of satisfaction or contribute to better health care.--Silverback 05:32, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, you're not answering my points (as usual). Under a market system, resources are dictated mostly by selfish individuals with short-term goals. I've accepted that a communist nation is likely to set the wrong prices with regard to individual demand. But you're not considering the downside of the free-market system: which is that commodities that are inefficient at raising individual satisfaction in general can force the price of efficient commodities to increase. To follow your example, individual demand for decorative silverware will force the cost of X-Ray plates up in a free market, despite the fact that decorative silverware is grossly inefficient in comparison at raising individual satisfaction. Why is it that capitalist nations rely on communist structures to deliver basic public goods? --Csmcsm 20:50, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ruy states: "As far as "lower levels of individual satisfaction" - what? This is ridiculous. What barometer are you using to measure that?" 

message: While what is referred to here on the wiki as communism isn't what I think of when I hear the word (I think of State Communism, i.e. pol pot & stalin), it does seem to be an important concept. This "communalism" is actually very agreeable to me as a spiritual person, I believe strongly in altruism. Unfortunately, these altruistic sociological theories only seem to work as far as the commune, and even then only when there is a solid religious foundation, and often a charismatic leader as well. Frankly, I think the people who desire to attempt Anarcho-Communism on a grand scale, or without a focus on God, have little comprehension of economics, psychology, sociology, or... history. They forget that the shiny idealism they believe so strongly in was once shared by those radicals who led to Stalin, Pol Pot, and every form of state communism. They forget that not everyone is altruistic, and indeed, that many are violent conquerors, or simply minor parasites, looking to revel in excess at the disadvantage of others. Every time I hear someone like Noam Chomsky speak, my mind wanders to visions of Black shirts beating political opponents and forcing them to drink castor oil, Snowball being chased from the farm by dogs, and Trotsky getting stabbed with an ice pick. No matter how pretty the utopia you envision, reality will always eventually step in. Sam Spade Wants you to vote! 13:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Politics, economics, and psychology 

message: I don't understand how the Deng quote needs contextualising, or how it is POV. We are reporting the judgement of many that China has made significantly pro-capitalist economic reforms; the quote is a support of this view. Don't interpret this as a challenge; I'm just genuinely confused, and don't understand the need for reversion. In the interests of accuracy, isn't the best approach to attempt to provide necessary contextualisation? Lacrimosus 07:47, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The rest of the quotation was, "Poverty is not socialism. To be rich is glorious." Yet, the way it was inserted into the article seems to imply that Deng was dismissing communism and admitting the superiority of capitalism. Also, is his conception of what it means to be "rich" any different in China from the prevailing one in the West? One quotation, at any rate one that can be interpreted in multiple ways, does not illustrate a complicated phenomena that accompany China's development... This quotation adds nothing to the article other than confusion. (There are already links concerning Chinese economic reform that are sufficient.) Please remove it. 172 08:22, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that he said it, at the time he was allowing market reforms, would indicate that he thought central planning, if not communism itself, was inhibiting wealth creation.  The quote does not seem confuse any issues.  If it seems a mixed message, perhaps that accurately reflects the state of affairs in the real world as well.--Silverback 02:14, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Deng quote

message: The article itself seems to have become much better of late in respect of not identifying communism exclusively with Leninism and the former USSR, though there is some way to go in this respect. The use of the hammer and sickle logo and its description as 'the international symbol of communism' is an example. It wouldn't be regarded as such by left communists, council communists, most Trotskyites, Anarcho-communists and other advocates of a communist society (granted it would often depend on how far you were from 1917 when you asked them). The appearance of the hammer and sickle at the top of the banner advertising the communism series of articles is likewise inappropriate, given that that series contains many articles on schools of thought that were extremely critical of, if not hostile to, the USSR. Shall we consign it to the dustbin of history? Mattley 23:59, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hammer & Sickle 

message: *Opponents of communism point out that the number of people killed are more than one hundred million. And that the methods used included concentration camps, mass starvation and ethnic genocides. [ 
** This is addresssed already in a way that avoids violating Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View with the following "...presiding over periods of repressive rule that saw tens of millions of casualties (see also Communist state)." In addition, you links have been added to the text. Further detail is found in the articles on the histories of the various Communist regimes and Communist state.
*And that they [concentration camps, mass starvation and ethnic genocides] took place in almost every communistic state.
**This is a description of the Stalinist USSR, which saw a scale of violence and terror unseen in Communist regimes that came to power after the Second World War, such as Cuba.    
*And in the Soviet Union continued even when that state was a superpower."
**The terror was abated significantly following Stalin's death, with Khrushchev's de-Stalinization. To make it clear that the USSR and other Communist governments were still nevertheless repressive single party regimes, but in a way that does not over-simplify history and violate NPOV, I added: "In the second half of the twentieth century, movements that threatened Communist Parties' monopoly on power, such Czechoslovakia's Prague Spring and China's Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, continued to be suppressed. Given these incidents and their often-violent histories, Communist Party-led regimes are often associated with human rights abuses, especially in the West."
*They also point out that every communistic state to date have been a dictatorship.
**The text states, "Because they were governed by monopolistic parties..." Those who argue that every Communist regime has been a dictatorship base that on the fact that a single party has a monopoly on power, so this point is already addressed while following NPOV. 
*Some supporters of communism claim that these states were in fact not communistic. Opponents claim that using the same argument, it is not possible to criticize capitalistic societies, as it can be claimed that apparently capitalistic states are in fact not capitalistic.
**This is neither here nor there. They were Communist Party run states, and to dispute this would be more of a stretch than arguing that the world is flat. They were not "communistic" though (with a small "c"). Communism is a social system based on common ownership of all property, an ideal that Communist Party run regimes claim that they are attempting to realize, but one that never has been realized; and this cannot be disputed given every single definition of "communism" (small "c") available.
In all, note many of the recent additions under the "violence" section (formerly "revolutionary violence"-- broadened to include the entire span of their rule) that incorporate the topics that Ultramarine is attempting to bring to light. 172 00:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely people acknowledge that historically Communist states have held communist characteristics, even if they have not fulfilled Marx's dream of "true" communism (which, given the circumstances necessary, is utterly impossible) J. Parker Stone 01:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Stick with standard definitions. Communism is based on common ownership of all property. Socialism is based on state ownership of the means of production. 172 03:00, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: It should be noted that millions continud to be killed even after Stalin and Mao. And that the deaths occured in almost all Communist states. However, the text is a marked ímprovement. Earler there were NO mention of the millions of killed, neither in this article or in that about Communist states. I will restore the last argument. The Communist states certainly tried to implement the ideas of Marx and called themselves Communist. And were societes were the state owned all property.Ultramarine 08:50, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Communist states certainly tried to implement the ideas of Marx and called themselves Communist. And were societes were the state owned all property. This is covered elsewhere in the article. Keep in mind that there are also articles on Communist state, Marxism, and socialism. The Communism article is the on the ideology of Communism (large "C") and communism (small "c") as a social system; and it already veers way too off topic with discussions of socialism and the political history of various Communist regimes. Re: millions continud to be killed even after Stalin and Mao Not in the Soviet Union under Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko, and Gorbachev. Not in China under Deng Xiaoping, Jiang Zemin, and Hu Jintao. Perhaps you are referring to Pol Pot's rule. 172 09:06, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read more history. Soviet Union  China You seem to think that facts that contradict your view of the world are POV. But they are just facts, not opinions. Calling deaths in concentration camps or due to deliberate mass starvation for casualties is POV. I will change the statements so that the fact are clear. Do not censor them, even if you do not like the facts. Ultramarine 14:16, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do not attribute this to POV. The reverts are more the result of problems posed by your non-native English, which is leaving this section a jumbled mess. The article goes into a sufficient level of detail mentioning tens of millions of casualties. The political histories of the relevant Communist regimes can be found in articles on the History of the Soviet Union and the History of the People's Republic of China. And, yes, it is POV to deny that the terror was abated significantly in the Soviet Union and China after the deaths of Stalin and Mao, respectively. 172 02:03, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Then change the English. Do not censor the facts. You again insist that deaths in concentration camps or due to deliberate mass starvation are casualties? You have already demonstrated your lack of historic knowledge by claiming that millions did not continue to be killed after Stalin and Mao. Keep the facts so you and others can learn. Ultramarine 04:39, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a historian, so you can show me all the libertarian polemics and websites that you possibly can will not have shown me anything new to me. Writing NPOV is not just a matter of inserting "opponents say," "supporters say" anywhere you can possibly fit it but rather writing specifically and precisely. Internal exile and concentration camps in Siberia long predate the Soviet Union, as do mass starvations, so they are not unique to Communist rule. Thus, I will integrate your observations of famine and starvation into the article in way that maintains proper historical writing, specifically mentioning the Gulags and the famine coinciding with collectivization. 172 06:34, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to be very afraid to let others know that killing continued until the fall of communism in the Soviet Union, under Lenin, after Mao and in all Communist countries. Add that killings also took place in Russia before the revolution, but do not remove that they continued as long as the communists were in power. Why was there NO mention of the Gulags in the articles prior to this discussion, if you had knowledge of them? Ultramarine 07:03, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Enough with the finger-pointing. (Libertas?) I wrote only very small portions of the article; and this is not the article on the history of the soviet Union. 172 07:07, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Much better now. I disagree to "casualties". Which is " a military person lost through death, wounds, injury, sickness, internment, or capture or through being missing in action". And if these states were not communist, then one can similarly claim that apparently capitalist states are not capitalist. Ultramarine 07:42, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Explanations for the removal of Ultramarine's text

message: This article is filled with Trotskyist slants. Stalin suppressed ALL dissent? Find me a quote from Stalin where he actually says it is neccesary to "suppress all dissent". He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism. In fact, there is no Stalinism. Stalinism is term invented by Trots for Marxism-Leninism. Trotskyism is a deviation from Marxism-Leninism.
* Just out of interest - are you or have you ever been a member of the Communist party? Average Earthman 17:22, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I smell a Trot! 

message: Not going to go into too much detail here, since it has been well covered elsewhere, notably by Karl Marx... Here is the addition made by Luis 
*According to critics, communists forget, however, that the production process requires more than just labour: machines (i.e. "capital"). These machines have a cost, which has to be included in the price of the produced good. Indeed, a T-shirt can nowadays be either produced with lots of labour (for instance in China) or with many machines (in Europe). Modern economic theory would imply that both T-shirts should have the same price (since they are essentially the same), no matter how much labour went into them.
Communists don't forget that capital makes up part of the cost of production of a commodity, though they do see capital as 'dead' or 'congealed' labour. There is no conflict between Marx and "Modern economic theory" on the point you claim. Yes, these T-shirts exchange at the same price despite having required different amounts of labour for their production because, in Marxian terms, their value is determined by the average amount of labour required for their production. There are plenty of valid criticisms that could be made of Marx, but this one is just based on a misapprehension I'm afraid. See Wages, Price and Profit or Wage Labour and Capital for more if you like. They explain the Labour theory of value very cogently and address the assumptions you are making. Mattley 19:46, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Does the theory explain how the congealed labor in the capital equipment just happens to come out equal to the labor in the labor intensive process?  That coincidence sounds too unlikely to be true.  There wouldn't be much point to the machines if they didn't save net labor in the long run.--Silverback 10:59, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not completely sure what you're driving at in that first sentence there. It isn't a question of amounts of labour being equal - because it is not the amount of labour in a particular commodity but the average amount required. In general, that is the point of introducing machinery: it means that a capitalist is temporarily able to produce commodities more cheaply than competitors yet realise a greater profit because he would be producing below the socially necessary cost of production for said commodities. This competitive advantage, in a real-world situation, would be of very short-duration, since competitors would also increase their capital-intensity. Is this not covered at Labour theory of value or somewhere? As for centrally planned states etc, I don't know. They weren't 'socialist', and if they claimed to be putting 'Marxian economics' into practices they were even more fraudulent than I realised. Mattley 12:29, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: economic critique

message: There's no mention of the concept of a gift economy in this article, which I find quite surprising, because the concepts are almost the same. I mean, they could be used to clear up a lot of things which would normally take a lot of things to say, or if the concept wasn't even mentioned, then oh the horror! 
Also, I find the fact that this article seems to distinguish too much between anarchism and communism. Can we consider anarchism part of, a branch of communism, whereas Marxist-Leninism is the other main branch? -- Natalinasmpf 22:39, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gift economy and anarchism 

message: Sorry if I seem annoying, but I find the skyscraper example rather bad. Maybe in the US skyscrapers are built entirely with private capital, but in other countries that does not seem to be the case. In the Gulf states skyscrapers are mostly built by state-owned companies. In Europe also the states have a lot of influence on skyscraper-building because of zoning laws, etc. Could the same point be made with another example? Luis rib 17:56, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Skyscraper example

message: *Becker, Jasper (1998) Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine'.' Owl Books. ISBN: 0805056688.
*Conquest, Robert (1991) The Great Terror: A Reassessment Oxford University Press ISBN: 0195071328.
*Conquest, Robert (1987) The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine.  Oxford University Press. ISBN: 0195051807.
*Courtois,Stephane; Werth, Nicolas; Panne, Jean-Louis; Paczkowski, Andrzej; Bartosek, Karel;  Margolin, Jean-Louis & Kramer, Mark (1999). The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression. Harvard University Press. ISBN: 0674076087.
*Hamilton-Merritt, Jane (1999) Tragic Mountains: The Hmong, the Americans, and the Secret Wars for Laos, 1942-1992 Indiana University Press. ISBN: 0253207568.
*Jackson, Karl D. (1992) Cambodia, 1975-1978  Princeton University Press ISBN: 069102541X.
*Kakar, M. Hassan (1997)Afghanistan: The Soviet Invasion and the Afghan Response, 1979-1982  University of California Press. ISBN: 0520208935.
*Khlevniuk, Oleg  &  Kozlov, Vladimir (2004) The History of the Gulag : From Collectivization to the Great Terror (Annals of Communism Series) Yale University Pres. ISBN: 0300092849.
*Natsios, Andrew S. (2002) The Great North Korean Famine. Institute of Peace Press. ISBN: 1929223331.
*Nghia M. Vo (2004) The Bamboo Gulag: Political Imprisonment in Communist Vietnam  McFarland & Company ISBN: 0786417145.
*Pipes, Richard (1995) Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime. Vintage. ISBN: 0679761845.
*Rummel, R.J. (1997). Death by Government. Transaction Publishers. ISBN: 1560009276.
*Rummel, R.J. (1996). Lethal Politics: Soviet Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1917. Transaction Publishers ISBN: 1560008873.
*Rummel, R.J. &  Rummel, Rudolph J. (1999). Statistics of Democide: Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1900. Lit Verlag ISBN: 3825840107.
*Todorov, Tzvetan & Zaretsky, Robert (1999). Voices from the Gulag: Life and Death in Communist Bulgaria.  Pennsylvania State University Press. ISBN: 0271019611
*Yakovlev, Alexander (2004). A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia. Yale University Press. ISBN: 0300103220. Ultramarine 04:26, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please write this ñew section in the capitalism article and support it with academic references. It would start an interesting debate. But do not censor the academic research regarding Communist states. You have not given a single academic reference that finds an error in current text. Ultramarine 04:40, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The point that I am making does not require the presentation of extensive research. It should be readily apparent to just about anyone who passed high school history. (World History is a requirement in just about every American high school.) All of those watching this article should be expected to have enough of a grounding in the past to be aware of the fact that the construction of labor camps, mass starvation, and repression of ethnic minorities occurred in noncommunist regimes, and were indeed all too common in both China and Russia before their respective Communist takeovers. That's the only premise of my argument that I am responsible for establishing. With that in mind, your work should be more contextualized and balanced by other possible explanatory variables, like the fact that both China and Russia were engulfed by utter chaos and anarchy before the Communists even came to power. (One would have to be pretty obtuse to expect any group forcibly establishing a new regime to restore order without a considerable amount of bloodshed.) JMaxwell 05:07, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to add your observations, with academic references. The facts are clear and should not be censored. They showed that horrendous human rights violations took place in most or all of the states ruled by Communist parties. If you want to justify these crimes, add your explanation. If you want to give similar charges against capitalism, do so with references. For now, you have only made many claims without a single reference as support. Please read cite your sources and no original research. Ultramarine 09:05, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Then you can read about the fallacy of the hasty generalization. I thought that you would be intelligent enough to realize that the paragraph was nothing more than a huge sweeping generalization without having to name-drop, but since you would rather continue playing games instead of respecting the NPOV policy, I can join you in this pissing contest and start listing off academics myself. For starters, Barrington Moore's Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy relates the class structure of the old regimes the political development of Communist regimes. Skocpol's States and Social Revolutions relates class and state structures of the old regime to political development. I cite these two because their works are the basis of established literature on this subject in comparative politics; if you are interested in other writers in this field, you can go ahead and do a search on Jstor yourself. JMaxwell 09:44, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to justify these crimes, add your explanation. If you want to give similar charges against capitalism, do so with references. I am not setting out to do either of these things. This is a staw man and yet another diversion on your part. The problem is that you are refusing to accept any other possible explanation of these occurrences except Communism, which makes little sense when you consider the basic fact that the construction of labor camps, mass starvation, and repression of ethnic minorities occurred at times in noncommunist regimes, and, moreover, took place at times in both Russia and China before the Communists came along. This is an example of how tricky it is to argue that these poltical patterns are caused by an economic system or an ideology, and why these explantions are for the realm of scholarly journals, not Wikipedia. JMaxwell 09:50, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You understate the magnitude of the situation, the countries themselves were slave labor camps since they shot people trying to escape, there is film footage of it happening for badness sakes!  Denial of the right emigrate is perhaps the most basic human rights violation (for those allowed to live), we could perhaps tolerate some diversity in country oppressiveness if people were living there were doing so voluntarily, but denial of the right to emigrate trumps any apologia these regimes might offer for the measures they use.--Silverback 10:52, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: 1) Are you denying that these crimes took place? Then give academic references 2) Are you saying that similar crimes took place in Capitalist countries? Then give references and write something in the Capitalism article. 3) Are you saying that all the crimes took place during the revolution and that there were no Gulags, terror or mass starvations long after this? Then please give references. You seem to think that  crimes can be excused if there has been similar crimes before which is an absurd idea. It is like justifying Hitler's genocides by stating that the German empire earlier committed genocides in Africa. Ultramarine 11:14, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you speak English? How many times do you have to make the same accusations and say the same things over and over again? Reread what I wrote. If you want to justify these crimes, add your explanation. If you want to give similar charges against capitalism, do so with references. I am not setting out to do either of these things. This is a staw man and yet another diversion on your part. The problem is that you are refusing to accept any other possible explanation of these occurrences except Communism, which makes little sense when you consider the basic fact that the construction of labor camps, mass starvation, and repression of ethnic minorities occurred at times in noncommunist regimes, and, moreover, took place at times in both Russia and China before the Communists came along.... You want to claim that these things were caused only by Communism, independent of other factors, when in reality hisotry was more complex. JMaxwell 20:56, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are ignoring my questions and statements in more recent replies. I will go all the way to arbitration if there is any attempt at censorship of very well-documented historical facts. Ultramarine 21:04, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You keep on turn my statements into strawmen, attributing motives to me that I'm not working for. You asked for sources, and I gave them to you. There is indeed writing on China and Russia that does not attribute all the problems in those two countries to Communist boogymen... Go ahead and take this to arbitration. Your work is POV and you are acting unreasonable. I'm sure that will be evident to any less fanatical person. JMaxwell 21:09, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  None of your sources explain why the human rights violations by Communist states should be censored from the article. Add to the text that there is "writing on China and Russia that does not attribute all the problems in those two countries to Communist boogymen". This is no excuse for excluding the very well-documented historical research. Should the article about Nazism censor the human rights crimes because there are some books which have a different opinion? Ultramarine 21:21, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Damn you're being really dense. My point isn't to keep information out, just to balance it with more information, or get rid of it if the writers can manage to present it within the framework of NPOV. The problem is not necessarily what you are observing, but the lack of attention to other areas of academic literature when it comes to causation. JMaxwell 21:31, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then add the information, as I have repeatedly stated, with references. Ultramarine 21:34, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: Dear JMaxwell. Since you ask in how far theoretical Communism is responsible for the crimes attributed to Communism, here's an explanation (documented in The Black Book, among many other sources). A) Certainly labour camps, famines, etc. existed before communism. B)In the case of labour camps, these persisted for the simple reason that the general population was opposed to the government and the policies it implemented (e.g. collectivization of land). C) Famines were directly linked to Communist policies. In China's case, the Black Book explains very well how the economic measures of the Great Leap Forward were the prîncipal reason of the famine (e.g. the prohibition to trade grain between provinces, the collectivization of land, the central planification, the reduced labour force following the forced move to industrial production, etc.). This is different from previous famines that took place before communism, and were due to indifference from the central powers. D) In the case of Cambodia, the genocide was directly the consequence of Pol Pot's interpretation of Communism (i.e. an agricultural communism, without money, industry, or services, and where individualism was suppressed to the point of prohibiting glasses), which he tried to preserve by assassinating or starving those that might have seen the flaws in his reasoning. E) You may argue that all these points are irrelevant since they don't reflect real (utopic) communism). This point can be countered by noticing that 1- utopic free market capitalism doesn't exist either; 2- until 1989, all communist parties, and most intellectuals that supported marxism, agreed that the Soviet Union and other countries were on the way of establishing communism; 3- from an economic point of view, many measures typically identified with communism were indeed implemented by Communist countries, with the consequences we know. Luis rib 21:42, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Save your breath. I have heard all of these explanations many times before. I am not saying that I necessarily disagree with them, but that the article should not be based on the above POV premises or other POV premises that recognize that every social and economic structure that has ever developed in China or Russia has had its inherent problems. JMaxwell 23:10, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  References on human rights violations by Communist states 

message: Yes, our article capitalism suffers from the same attempts by utopian advocates. Some claim no capitalist society has ever existed. Someone says it is not propaganda. That implies that a serious theorist might believe this utopian vision could in fact exist. I never met them in real life. What I enountered is people who insisted something good might eventually come out of all the effort, but made excuses for the imperfect contemporary examples. Let's pretend, in short. Fred Bauder 01:03, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
No, a lot of pure capitalist (aka laissez faire) economies have always existed. You can't compare "utopian capitalism" to "utopian communism" - communism was designed for utopia, capitalism was just meant to further the goals of one individual over the other. There is no proposed model for "capitalist utopia", because there was no such thing as a "capitalist manifesto", for instance. You have investment for dummies books, economics books or teachings on how to make money and discussion, but it was never to achieve utopia. Because the system's success is not based on how well the community does: just one individual. Hence, this does not apply. Communism - is an socioeconomic model. Capitalism is a purely economic system. True capitalist societies have always existed, true communist entities that took over countries have never existed. -- Natalinasmpf 02:26, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Response to dialogue

message: Totalitiarianism is sociologically impossible, and has existed no where except in the works of fiction, and the minds of writers such as Orwell. Utopianism, which often seems to be similiar to totalitarianism; is the same. The terms should be totally striked from the article, atleast when talking of scientific communism, such as Marxism(-Leninism). --Mista-X 17:46, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Which terms? The term "utopianism"/"utopian", or the terms classified as being "utopian"? Also totalitarianism, yes that is true, it means when the government has total control (to an extent), bu t the idea "approaching totalitarianism" could be a true statement. Generally, if someone is starving, but say, has only been starving for a week, and if no one continues to give him food, it would be correct to say he's approaching death, no? -- Natalinasmpf 17:54, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Totalitarianism and Utopianism are Sociological impossibilities

message: Unfortunately, the commies here on Wikipedia prevent communism from rightfully being treated in the same manner as nazism and fascism. Therefore, the crimes of communism are whitewashed, rationalized and equivocated away.
--Unsigned comment by User:212.202.51.84 Slac speak up! 22:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: To be frank, it would be nice if the editing process on this page could be something other than a "dialectic" between communist-sympathetic and communist-antipathetic users. But I don't particularly think name-calling is going to help anything much. Slac speak up! 22:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Crimes? Or hijackings by state capitalists? -- Natalinasmpf 17:54, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Communism is Totalitarian