Talk:Skanderbeg/Archive 1

message: The article states that Skanderberg was appointed "general" by the Ottomans.  Would it be correct to replace this with "Müşir", or was their another such contemporary rank in the Ottoman army at the time? siafu 02:29, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Title

message: Skanderbeg is founder of Castriota Scanderbeg family which is today part of Italian nobility.
</blockquote>
For starters, this is apparently written by someone who has difficulty with English; what does "Curiosa" mean?  Is there a reference or source on this claim?  What is the relevance of this claim?  If it's notable, it should probably be able to be developed beyond just one sentence, or else merged in somewhere else; we don't need a section (with its own heading) that is just one ambiguous and difficult to understand sentence. siafu 18:39, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Curiosa

message: A.
This evidence was placed either (i)as footnotes to the new additions or (ii)as links in the external links sections.
* Kastrioti Family Genaology states that his acestor was Branilo, a Serb 
* Page scanned from an English book showing the crest of the Kastrioti together with other contemporary Serb noble families 
* Albanian Intenret Association: Skenderbeg quotes by Albanian and Western academics regarding Skenderbeg's ethnicity
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B.
Also added was the section: "Quotes by Academics on Skenderbeg's ethnicity":
Quotes by Academics on Skenderbeg's ethnicity: 
Count Leopold Ranke: "In Albania, a prince of Serb origin, George Kastriotovoitch Skenderbeg, fought the Turks with great valour as the prince of Albania". 
Paul Rovinski: "...in the time of national awakening for the Albanians - Skenderbeg was as much of a Serb as he was an Albanian...in him there was much Serb blood. His mother Vojislava was a Serb princess and the names of most of Skenderbeg's sisters were Serb...Mara, Jela, Angelina, Valica and his brothers were: Stanisa, Konstantin. Skenderbeg's sister Mara was married to Stefan Crnojevic, lord of Zeta, who with the Zetans helped Skenderbeg for 24 years in the wars against the Turks. According to the Catholic priest of Shkodra Marin Barleci, the Turks unearhed Skenderbeg's remains and distributed them amongst themsleves 'as amulets". 
L. Diefenbach: "Skenderbeg's family was of Serb descent" and married to Danica daughter of Vojvoda Golem. (golem is an old Slav word, meaning "great".) 
Teodoro Spanduci: "Skenderbeg, a personally brave man was of Serb descent and was so useful, that he was respected by the Albanians, as well. He was the son of Ivan Kastrioti. His mother was Vojislava, daughter of the Prince of Polog."
Fatos Lubonja: "I told of how the Albanians have forgotten that Skenderbeg was a Slav. I was attacked by Ismail Kadare." * 1.
Kaplan Resulli: "Lets mention, as well, at this opportune time only Georgi Kastriot ­ Skenderbeg, of an undeniable Slavic ancestry..."* 1.
----
C.
Also added was the section "Sources":
History of the Servian People
1848
Leipzig, Germany
Count Leopold Ranke
Paul Rovinski
Russian emmisary and historian
quoted from: "Glas Crnogorca" 
1899 
L. Defenbah
"Zeine Familie War Slavishen Ursprungs"
Brlin, Germany
1895 
Teodoro Spanduci 16th century Italian 
quoted by: P. Rovinski 
see: above source for Mr. Rovinski
------------------------------------
I could not find a good historical source for the genealogy of Kastriot family. However, I would like to point out that John Kastriot had four sons of which two have christian calendar names (Constantina and George) while two have Slavic (one could even say Serbian, since he was a noble of Serbian state)names - Stanisha and Reposh, both of which were quite usual at the time and Stanisha still is a common name amongst Serbs. I am quoting this from Konstantin Jiretschek and his works. 
Furthermore, let's not forget that John Kastriot donated villages to Hilandar, the Serbian monastery on Mt Athos, in 1426 although he had many other monasteries much closer. The photo of the diploma can be seen in Spomenik SAN nr. 45 (1942) or some other more available source. Mind you also that John Kastriot planed to be burried after his death in Hilandar and that Skenderbeg's brother, Reposh was burried there. Above his grave are painted St. George, St. Simeon Nemanja (the founder of the Serbian Nemanjic dynasty) and St. Sava (the founder of independent Serbian church). The inscription is in Serbian. 
A third point is that all of the documents published by Skenderbeg were either in Latin, Italian or in Serbian. None are in Albanian. 
But all of this doesn't mean that he wasn't and isn't an Albanian hero. We should just acknowledge that he was of diferent origin and clearly had different views on what he is than the present day Albanians. 
24.90.102.133 23:14, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revisions made to this article are based on the following evidence 

message: Perhaps an RfC is in order.  It seems obvious that both sides in this dispute are able to produce a good deal of sourced information, and are both deeply committed to their side.  It's time for a third option of some sort. siafu 22:11, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dispute

message: The genealogy is posted as a link and as part of the article. Stop trying to delete information just because it doesn't suit your biase.
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The info is flawed. As stated. Branilo was not the ruler of Ioannina so that already makes the info flawed. Unless you can bring up a proper arguement against what I showed then stop changing it. A clearly flawed geneology page has not place in this article. 
Actually, since you are blind to arguements around you. Here are what Greek sources say about Ioaninna in that era;
Lets check this source;
"Ioannina in 1367 acknowledges Thomas Prelubovich as its ruler."
then;
This starts the Albanian raids against Ioannina which lead the Despot Thomas to repair and renovate the fortness of Ioannina in 1375. In 1384, the tyranny of Thomas Prebulovich comes to an end. The rule of the city is taken over by his widow, Maria Angela Paleologue. In 1386, against the threat of Albanian tribal chiefs, Buondelmonti is proclaimed despot of the city, bringing back the metropolis to its seat and implementing a wise administration of the population.
This source states;
In 1367 the Serb Thomas Prilioubovitch became the new overlord of Ioannina and after him the city surrendered to the Italians Isau Buandelmonti (1385-1411) and Carlo I Tokko (1411-1430).
This source(In Greek) states;
"
Η τυραννική δεσποτεία του Θωμά Πρελούμποβιτς λήγει με την δολοφονία του και αναλαμβάνει την εξουσία της πόλης η χήρα του, Μαρία Αγγελίνα Παλαιολογίνα."
''
It states that the rule of Thomas comes to an end and control of the area falls to his wife.
And once again after that the same names come up. Carl I Toco and Isau Buandelmonti. Never any mention of Branilo.
I will not repeat what is written above. Check the sources on top. My arguement agianst your sources is very much a valid one. Sorry Highduke, its not me thats biased. it seems you are however, you are not going at this neutrally. You completely ignore my counter arguement. I stated the geneology page can be placed with a disclamer if you really want it. The Kastoria comment is sourceless and completely assumed and the nobility page says nothing about serbs...
I ask admins to watch this page as the person posting this info is not giving proper arguements. Rather, he changes the info based on what suits his purpose. Should he continue with this, I ask that he be blocked from the article. 
IskanderBey 17:47, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Skanderbeg's ancestry 

message: 1.
Preljubovic was a governor of Epirus. So what? Branilo Kastriota, great grandfather of Skenderbeg was a minor noble. There were many administrators in feudal bureaucracy. What you don't understand can fill a whole book about Skenderbeg. Branilo was a minor noble in Preljubovic's administration. Face it.
2.
Besides, his geneology states that the Kastriota were a Serb family who had distinctive Serbian names and marrird EXCLUSIVELY to Serb nobility. Not Bulgarian and not with Greek nobles.
3.
Sources that don't mention Skenderbeg's Serbian origin are irrelevant because they only mention Skenderbeg's father and do not go into the Kastriota geneology. They are incomplete and lacking in important info; thus they are irrelevant.
________
1.-There is no mention of Branilo. At all. Read the Heraldic source. it clearly states that with certainty, Scanderbeg's family starts with his father. Any other is speculation. Where did this Branilo source come from? Also sorry Highduke, even your sources go against what you now claim;
"Governatore di Jannina nel 1368." This is a year after Thomas took over.... So now suddenly Thomas gets overthrown and replaced by him, and very quickly(almost unnoticably) takes power again....
"Preljubovic was a governor of Epirus."
No, NOT the governor of Epirus. Governor or Ioaninna(Jannina). Which contradicts the geneology page's claim. Ill have to email them a letter in Italian telling them to correct their info. 
2.-Scanderbeg's wife was an Albanian, she has the name Arianiti in her. Plus nobody denies that he had Serb ancestry in him through his mother. Serbs were also the higher classes then. However Scanderbeg's action and words are what matter. And they never stated anything having to do with Serbs. Nothing. Plus ALbanians are a people that get influenced easily. After the Ottomans took over and ALbanians were forced to conform, they started taking up the names of their past dreaded enemies. There was never any real Turkish colonial presence in ALbania but you still find names.
3. They are relevent because as stated, they go on by proven things. Not assumed. There is no mention of a Branilo anywhere is actual Scanderbeg records. Actually there was! Except it was his nephew....Except he was renamed Hamza as he turned to the Ottoman army and betrayed his uncle after he got jelouse that his uncle had a son by the name of John(Gjon) Kastrioti. Following an Albanian tradition of naming your son the name your grandfather had.....Branilo then realized he was not going to be able to gain the throne after Scanderbeg and went to the Ottoman side. But this is all in here....
IskanderBey 14:54, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tomas Preljubovic and Branilo Kastriotic 

message: I have already proven the unnofficial geneology page wrong with offical Greek history sites on Ioannina. It is wrong. Plus have the page is filled with your assumptions "was likely killed by..." sorry this stuff is not toletarate. This is your false assumption. Scanderbeg has already stated himself as an Albanian in his own letter. The Geneology page is assumed as Scanderbeg's family officially starts with John Kastrioti. Enough with repeating yourself, either learn to debate what I brought to you by getting other sources that can back up Branilo's existance(since that is wrong on who he was) or just stop now. Names are of no help as I already stated that his mother was Serbian. Those can easily be named by her. The other yes, however what does marriage say when Scanderbeg himself married an Albanian(with "Arianiti" in her name). What you are doing is wrongfully assuming based on nothing more then an unofficial geneology page and a few names. It does not change what Scanderbeg himself stated of his family. Now enough, I have reported what you are doing in this article.
IskanderBey 16:55, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Get a new arguement! 

message: Miskin, next time you copy and paste, maybe you can provide the sources inwhich you took the words from. As I dont believe wiki policy like such...
Tpilkati 04:51, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears Miskin canot make a single NPOV comment, from the theories of Albanization to everything else he has posted. Its just gibberish from what I have read so far. 
Tpilkati 19:27, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I hope you're joking. Skanderbeg was talking about Pyrrhus of Epirus, scroll up and read. Miskin 01:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't know about that. Miskin 01:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Is there anywhere else?? Miskin 01:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

text: You haven't been following the conversation, now I cann't be arsed to explain to you. Miskin 01:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Exactly. And other ancient or even medieval people such as Franks, Lombards, Anglo-Saxons and Vikings, were at the time part of a German ethnos. But this is no longer the case, unless of course you can convince the English, Dutch and Scandinavians that they're actually ethnically German... :) Similarly with the Arvanites, at the time they settled in Argolid, Attica and the Cyclades, they were part of a greater Albanian (or Arvanite) ethnos, but as gradually their older Albanian dialect evolved and obtained a separate language status, they lost connection to the modern Albanian nation. Same thing happened with Slavs and Turks. It's funny how some contemporary Albanian fantasise the surviving Arvanite villages in Greece as part of an ethnic Albanian minority group. Shows what blinded and clueless nationalists they are. Miskin 22:43, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copy and pasting! 

message: I ve added two books on the bottom of the external links. Perhaps "Catholic Word Enyclopedia VOL. XXIII., Number 134-MAY 1876" should be moved there too.MATIA 10:48, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  bibliography 

message: Albanian language Encyclopedia Britannica Article 
In Calabrian Albanian the name is Arbresh, in Modern Greek Arvanítis, and in Turkish Arnaut; the name must have been transmitted early through Greek speech. --Albanau 18:28, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Matia we had some people here claiming that Skanderbeg was Serb or partly Serb, we don't need others claiming he was Greek or partly Greek. We are through with extram nationalists/propaganist people like you. Albanau 20:02, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Tpilkati I agree... one more thing, keep an eye on Matia, he is using old Encyklopedias from 1911 and saying that Tosk and Geg is separated languages, he also claim that Tosks are a mishmash of people with Albanian, Vlach and Greek ethnicity all togheter.  Albanau 21:32, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Arnauti means Albanian

message: Scanderbeg clearly was a Serb, but he also was clearly a Greek, he also was clearly a Bulgarian, as also he was clearly a Turk. Scanderbeg must have been some 400% human, maybe a demigod. This Serbo-Greek-Bulgarian-Turk demigod one day decided to go to some inexistent Albanian subhumans and lead them on for their inexistent subhuman nation's independence and after some 25 glorious years and defeating 2 sultans, he died of a malady from hell. This demigod sent from the Mercy of Universe unto these subhumans called Albanians is clearly not an Albanian, because Albanians are subhumans by default (although even Satan Hitler disagrees with that) and cannot do such things as Scanderbeg did. Yes it is the rule. The one and unbreakable rule. Albanians are bad! So yes, lo and behold, hearken thee the whole truth, bow before the demigod that makes all Balkans claim him theirs. Super PowerRangers UltraForce the bad Arnaut. 
This is one hell of a page to study how human brain cannot process facts. Candy for psychologists. Probably to be used in PhD thesis, about these peculiar Serb and Greek subjects (that clearly do not represent their nations), and their inability to reality, inability to process information. These guys seem to have a fetish of disregarding facts and sources and while they provide nothing, they just keep accusing the bad Albanians of their default evil existence. Everytime an Albanian brings facts, then he is a terrorist nationalist Atheist kamikazi ready to bomb. And what does this Atheist kamikazi bomb with... yes facts and reason, that's why Albanians are so evil.--Vlug 08:08, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Admin cleanup 

message: In the meantime I'm restoring the undisputed fact that Skanderbeg's mother was a Serbian princess and correcting some other fallacies. The Despotate of Epirus (undisputably a Greek state), expanded from central Greece to Epirus up until central Albania (North of Dhyrrachium). Therefore it's inaccurate to abstractly generalise its borders in the way that it was done (implying connections to the Despotate and its Albanian subjects). If for no other reason, this is also retarded because the Despotate didn't have fixed borders, so you can't use its state name pretending that it was ever bound to some geographical regions. Clear? Crystal. Now let the nationalist note that according to Byzantine maps and texts, the Despotate of Epirus was separated into two parts according to its corresponding Byzantine provinces. Those parts were:
*Old Epirus: Geographically corresponds to the current region of Epirus in Greece.
*New Epirus:Geographically corresponds to current South and central Albania.
The distinction was made in the early Byzantine Empire in order to differentiate between the region of the ancient Greek Kingdom of Epirus and the Southern region of ancient Illyria that contained Greek colonies (such as Dhyrrachium). Therefore any references to the Epirote dictionary (Albanian) would refer to the Albanians of New Epirus (central Albania) and would not imply Albanian majority in Old Epirus. As a matter of fact Old and New Epirus had always had a mixed Greco-Illyrian population, with a Greek majority to the former and an Illyrian one to the latter. There's no argument for Albanians trying to claiming the history of Epirus, as there would be no arguments for Greeks to try and claim the history of Illyria or Albania, or any other place they had colonised or conquered. Furthermore the "Albanian princes" in Old Epirus doesn't imply any actual Albanian presence in the land, nor an ethnic Albanian movement (as an Albanian state didn't exist), hence Albanian claims are ludicrous. According to Hobsbawm, Greek princess were installed in Romania during its Ottoman occupation, but that in no way implies and Greek occupation or majority in the region. In the equivalent case of Old Epirus, Albanian extremism takes it to the limit. Hence I'm reverting ludicrous edits. Miskin 12:05, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no implication that the Despotate of Epirus was an Albanian state, it only tell us about the Albanian tribes of the past Despotate of Epirus who united with Skanderbeg in the fight against Ottoman Empire. This article need to be protected due to the Greek, 1, 2, and Serbian, 3, nationalist claim on the Albanian prince and hero Skanderbeg. Albanau 17:38, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A few words about Epirus 

message: Who was Skenderbeg's father? HolyRomanEmperor 20:53, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Gjon (aka John) Castriota (or Kastriot or Kastrioti or Kastriotis etc). Read the 2nd paragraph of the wiki and the section titled "name variants". +MATIA  ☎ 21:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  his father's name was John 

message: Well, according to my sources, John Kastrioti was Skanderbeg's grandfather - and from his mother's side, who was an Albanian Princess - daughter of Kastrioti. His father was Ivan Crnojević (Иван Црнојевић) - he named him Staniša (Станиша) and dispatched him in 1482 to Istanbul as a mark of his acceptence of Ottoman rule - where he became Skender and adopted full Albanian nationality prior to his return to Albania. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Parents? 

message: I'm not surprised at all that this subject has generated so much controversy. First of all, let me just say I am from Albania, born and raised (I now live in the United States). Problems concerning the identification of major historical figures have plagued all nations throughout the Balkans; Albanians have just as much a right to be angry when Macedonians or Serbs claim Scanderbeg belongs to "them" as much as Macedonians have a right to be angry when Albanians make claims that Alexander was Albanian simply because his mother was born in Epirus. Silly things like this go on all the time, and often there's a profusion of nationalism that greatly overshadows genuine historical work. 
There's much that I don't like about this article, but I'm not going to make any changes because this isn't an issue that requires pluralism and debate; simply put, we will never agree on this and emotions are way too charged. So I will let whoever has the real power to have their say. "Cowardly" will say some, but people in the Balkans have torn each other's throats for this kind of stuff (literally and figuratively), so excuse my desire not to repeat the process. One thing that I do find amazing about this talk page is the still strong and combative Balkan spirit; glad to see that hasn't gone away, cuz we sure could use more of it (sarcasm, for those of you who aren't into jokes)! 
I just want to make one suggestion. Even if granting the point that Scanderbeg was a major historical figure in "Epirus" (a ludicrous charge, and one that's almost too astounding to even challenge), we have to keep in mind that historically Epirus hasn't belonged exclusively to Greece, as this article implies. The article now states that Epirus is a "province of Greece," which is correct, but geographically the region of Epirus is used to historically pinpoint Southern Albania and Northwestern Greece. You would think somebody would've picked this up and corrected it, but I can see the "historians" among us have far more important tasks.UberCryxic 02:27, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's stick to the facts: father an Albanian lord and mother a Serbian Princess. (http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/SAR_SCY/SCANDERBEG_or_ISKENDER_BEY_14o3.html). --HolyRomanEmperor 23:06, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My Two Cents 

message: I added two more pictures, but I am not sure if the position is fine. --Tarawneh 04:37, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of Pictures 

message: One editor added the signature "INFO (By Andi VL)", other editors removed the last paragraphs of the article - I don't know what to say. I did those edits and I 'll might add some stuff later. talk to +MATIA 09:42, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  my latest edit 

message: SCANDERBEG, or ISKENDER BEY (1403-1467), known also as the Dragon of Albania, the national hero of the Albanians, was the son of John (Giovanni) Castriota, lord of Kroia and of the Mirdite country in northern Albania, and of a Servian princess named Vaisava. His actual name was George (Giorgio) Castriota, and the name of Iskender Bey (Prince Alexander) was given to him by the Turks in complimentary reference to Alexander the Great. In 1423, when Murad II invaded Epirus, George Castriota, with his three brothers, was handed over as a hostage to the Turks and sent to be trained in the service of the seraglio. His brilliant qualities of mind and body at once gained him the favor of the sultan; he became a Mussulman, was promoted to high military command and, though barely nineteen years of age, to the government of a sanjak. He remained in the Ottoman service for twenty years, dissembling his resentment when, on the death of his father, his principality was annexed and his brothers poisoned. In 1443, however, his opportunity came with Janos Hunyadis victory at Nish. He seized Kroia by stratagem, proclaimed himself a Christian, and gathered the wild Albanian clansmen about him. In the inaccessible fastnesses of Albania he maintained a guerilla warfare against the Turks during nearly twenty-five years, easily routing the armies sent against him, and is said to have slain three thousand Turks with his own hand. In 1461 Murads successor Mahommed II. acknowledged him by a temporary truce as lord of Albania and Epirus. He died in 1467 at Alessio, and his tomb was long the object of a superstitious veneration on the part of the Turks.
Scanderbegs resistance to the Turkish advance was invaluable to the cause of Christianity, but the union which he had maintained in Albania did not survive him. He was succeeded in Kroia by his son, Giovanni Castriota, who in 1474 sold the principality to the Venetians, by whom four years later it was re-sold to the Turks.
See Georges T. Petrovitch, Scander-beg (Georges Castriota); Essai de bibliographie raisonnee; Ouvrages sur Scander-beg crits en langues francaise, anglaise, allemande, latine, italienne, &c. (Paris, 1881); Pisko, Skanderbeg, historische Studie (Vienna, 1895). talk to +MATIA 09:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  the text from 1911