Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 3

message: Rather than clutter this talk page every time a football-related article is nominated for deletion, I've added an Articles for Deletion section, where a list of current football-related articles that have been AfD'd can be kept. Let me know what you think... Qwghlm 21:42, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles for deletion 

message: User  keeps changing templates with no previous discussion despite being warned before. Check his contributions. Lesfer 16:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, he reverted (rightfully), a template back to a previous original version. It was the user (haven't bothered to check who) that implemented the changes a while ago that did so without previous discussion. -- Elisson • Talk 17:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Including changes in Template:Football squad start and Template:Football squad mid? Lesfer 17:39, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, those I did not know about. I only saw the change to the club infobox, which was a rightfull revert, the others I don't support. -- Elisson • Talk 18:08, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  User:Ed g2s 

message: Can somebody familiar with football (soccer) standards take a look at :Category:Canadian soccer players.  It doesn't make sense to me that its a subcategory of :Category:Canadian Soccer Association and :Category:Canadian National Team.  Obviously a person can be a Canadian soccer player, without being on the National Team.  Also, I presume that if you're with the National Team, you're automatically with the Canadian Soccer Association.  I made Taryn Swiatek, and thought she would go in :Category:Canadian National Team, but I see nobody else is put there.  So, I put her in :Category:Canadian soccer players.  But, I'm not clear on how this is expected to work, or what's done elsewhere.  --Rob 09:07, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the two categories from :Category:Canadian soccer players. These two categories are not used and not needed so I've also speedied them. -- Elisson • Talk 11:12, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Only professionals. -- Elisson • Talk 09:40, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canadian category confusion 

message: Why in almost all of the articles about a player named into that list is a mention about it?. I don't know if that list have a good reception on you guys, but I don't know any good football fan that have some respect for it. The point is that if nobody with a little knowledge aout it really accept that Mia Hamm, Nakata and Hong Myung-bo (what is that, he really play football?) are better than Jairzinho, Law, Salas and Riquelme, why is there a mention about being in a "list that nobody respect". I would be happy editing those phrases that mention "he is included in the FIFA 100 list elaborated by Pelé". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bauta (talk • contribs) 
: I see no problem with it. If you propose that only awards and titles that are "respected" by the general public should be mentioned, you are out on deep POV waters. -- Elisson • Talk 18:21, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But in terms of universal knowledge it's a big mistake to make that list a kind of "price". No problem with a lot of awards that I don't like generally, but to have a bussiness minded list as a kind of medal to put in the jacket?. There are a lot of lists that are much more well accepted. --Bauta 01:42, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  FIFA 100 or Pelé list 

message: Now, into Yashin. In the english article he is nicknamed "officially" "black panther" and says "also called him "Black Spider" and "Black Octopus" , but in the french and spanish  articles he is named "black spider". It's the first time that i know about that "black panther" nickname (no word about octopus), my question is: does anybody of you know him as black panther? maybe is a matter of location and english talking places know him as black panther. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bauta (talk • contribs) 
: The "black panther" seems to be the most common nickname (  ), while the two others also seem to have been used, but not to the same extent. -- Elisson • Talk 18:21, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I don't know how they call in England and USA, so no problem with that. It would be perfect to know how they call him in the Soviet Union. But at least in America, France, Italy and Spain he's better known as Spider.--Bauta 01:47, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yashin... Ah yeah, you mean the Ragno Nero (Black Spider)?!? Yes, in Italy he's mainly known as Black Spider. --Angelo 02:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yashin nickname 

message: Ongoing discussion here: Template_talk:Football_squad_player#Header_colour. ed g2s • talk 15:49, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Football squad templates 

message: One of the objections in the FLC for List of football clubs in Europe is inconsistency in the use of FC / F.C. We have F.C. as the standard for clubs with English names, but should this also apply to teams using FC as a prefix or with non-english names (e.g. FC Basel)? Oldelpaso 11:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: BIG NO. :) Most non-English clubs never use punctuation in these kinds of abbreviations (see for example how the official FC Basel site explicitly writes FC without punctuation several times). Do even English clubs use it most of the time? I've seen an old discussion on this somewhere which I can't find at the moment. I'd even like to see (even if I know that it would probably never happen) a move of all English clubs so they use FC instead of F.C. See for example how UEFA treats these abbreviations. -- Elisson • Talk 12:21, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm very much in favor of eliminating the punctuation like UEFA do. Much cleaner in my opinion. -- JoelCFC25 18:32, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I've done a quick survey of club websites. Most English club sites are run by premiumtv.com, who use FC. Of those Premier clubs with different hosting providers, FC was used by Chelsea, Fulham, and West Ham. The sign on Everton's ground uses FC. The Scottish sites I looked at also used FC. Several clubs did not have an obvious example of either on their site. I didn't see any sites using F.C. From this brief sample your position appears to be preferable, but given how long it would take I wouldn't support a switch unless someone created a bot to do it. Oldelpaso 15:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Despite my earlier findings, I've remembered some English clubs that do use F.C., how could I of all people forget this example. Oldelpaso 19:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Although that doesn't necessarily mean that they tend to use punctuation (their official site, for example, uses FC and not F.C. in the title bar). The punctuation is also seen in for example AIK's and Djurgårdens IF's badges, while the clubs never use punctuation on their official websites. -- Elisson • Talk 19:56, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

text: In Italy it's quite commoner to use F.C. instead of FC. --Angelo 16:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: True, and then it should stay so. I've also noticed that Norwegian club articles seem to use punctuation, however when looking around on the Tippeligaen clubs' official websites, none use this form, they are either using no punctuation or nothing can be found on their sites. This is less than 50 Norwegian club articles so I guess a move of these should be considered. -- Elisson • Talk 16:36, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Use of FC / F.C.

message: Although it's not something we like to dwell on, football hooliganism is (or has been) a reality and is IMO worthy of noting in encyclopaedic articles on related football clubs.  I was doing some vandalism fighting a few days ago and ended up caught up in what appears to be an edit war on the Galatasaray article.  While I believe that hooliganism is noteworthy, I also think it's very important that we maintain consistency and NPOV, and ensure that sections on hooliganism are in keeping with the rest of the article they appear in.
The Galatasaray edit war seems to be limited to a group of three or four editors, so I thought it best to come here and ask for:
* opinions on the inclusion of hooliganism sections in football club articles (or placement of such content elsewhere in the encyclopaedia) in general
* a wider team of people to work on the Galatasaray article, so that the article isn't dominated by a handful of editors quibbling among themselves (and controversial issues can reach a meaningful concensus)
While I'm here, I'd also like to congratulate you all on the project.  On the whole, the football articles I've seen in Wikipedia are excellent; well maintained, informative, and impresseively well-balanced.  Well done, and thanks in advance for any help you can provide on the above. -- Waggers 13:28, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hooliganism 

message: Let's discuss at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Competitions#Naming convention for tournaments.  --Pkchan 18:01, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming convention for tournaments 

message: Read and comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Templates. -- Elisson • Talk 18:02, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal for final standardization of navigational boxes 

message: Sorry, I don't know where to post the links, world-foot.com is using your content   No link to wikipedia, no GFDL notice.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.248.190.101 (talk • contribs) .
: All text is available under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License (see Copyrights for details).  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.79.155.36 (talk • contribs) .
: I've sent a mail to the author of the blog. Let's see what happens next. -- Elisson • Talk 18:33, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You may want to read for example Wikipedia:Verbatim copying. Just because Wikipedia is open source and free and all that, does not mean that anyone can use the content in any way. The GFDL specifies that one must both provide a GFDL notice and a link to the full GFDL text, and also a link back to Wikipedia as stated in Wikipedia:Copyrights. The site in question does neither of this. – Elisson • Talk 23:49, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Plagarism?

message: May I request that everyone add the Liverpool article to their watchlists? For about the past month and a half we've had anonymous IPs target the "Club Culture" section and vandalise to say that Celtic were the first to sing YNWA, without sources. I've since semi-protected the page twice, but both times after it was unprotected the vandalism came back. Blocking these IPs would do no good, as they are AOL-like IPs. Everyone please add the article to your watchlists and revert the vandalism? NSLE (T+C) at 01:12 UTC (2006-03-05)
: I support instantly reverting any unsourced assertion on the article and have added that article to my Watchlist.  Yet I would also like to see the anon user's aseertion openly discussed on its talk page.  I have restored the latest of that user's claim on the talk page and raised a point of policy there.  Hopefully that will make him behave more reasonably in the future.  --Pkchan 04:03, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Liverpool F.C.]]/[[You'll Never Walk Alone (song)]] 

message: I created a subpage for listing football articles which require cleanup. Oldelpaso 20:55, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup subpage

message: I posted a comment here a few days ago, without response:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Matches#New ideasAny comments?Slumgum 22:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Football match template / manual of style 

message: The term "relegated" appears on quite a lot of football pages without being linked.  In USA, the concept of relegation is unknown.  It is not practiced in any of the leagues here.  I'm an American myself, and have interest in and knowledge of football far more than most of my countrymen, yet still I wasn't aware of this concept until recently.  Based on this, I think it's worth linking "relegated" as standard practice.  Perhaps we could put in a bot request to link existing usages. Pimlottc 15:09, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good suggestion. Wiggy! 19:00, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Linking "relegated" 

message: One thing I'd advise against is the use of career stats for current players (as David Raven) - it's the kind of information that goes out of date every three days, and there are other sites dedicated to football stats (such as Soccerbase) that are much more suited to this sort of information. A link to the player's Soccerbase (or equivalent) profile is more useful, I think. ArtVandelay13 16:20, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the use of stats is important in a biography of a footballer, as it can show the longevity of their career and value to their team, simply by showing how often they play.  As long as stats are accurate and are dated (to show how recently they were updated) they can be useful. It's up to individual editors whether they want update stats frequently or not. I much prefer the infobox for use of stats as it's very concise, even though it only shows league stats. Other stats tables are becoming too disparate in layout and content. -- Slumgum | yap | stalk | 22:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Player Stats

message: What about adding some positions in these templates?
*Template:Football squad player/role/DF: CB, FB
*Template:Football squad player/role/MF: MF, DMF, OMF, WG
*Template:Football squad player/role/FW: FW, CF
What do you think? Lesfer (talk) 16:38, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue was in past times discussed here. Have your say there. --Angelo 16:54, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, I didn't know about that. Thank you, but there's no point is discussing such a recent issue again. Specially when consensus has already been reached. Lesfer (talk) 18:05, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Positions (role) on squad player template 

message: I think it would be sensible to have written, between the time when the squads are announced up to the start of the World Cup, an article on every player and manager (and maybe referee) in the World Cup. Is this a plausible plan? Or is the third choice Togoan goalkeeper not notable enough for an article? --Dangherous 12:07, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree (apart from the referees part), and I've created an area in my userpage for listing 2006 World Cup  related articles before the time when the squads are announced and FIFA World Cup 2006 (squads) can be created. Oldelpaso 15:57, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[World Cup 2006]] 

message: has been continually adding badly-formatted articles for a whole range of blatantly non-notable semi-pro and amateur footballers (e.g. Johnnie Joyce) from Western England (playing for the likes of Winchester City, Fairford Town etc.). Despite my request to stop, the user continues (adding another 20 today). After I brought attention to it, admins have banned him/her for the next 48 hours, but they might decide to keep on adding once the ban is up. I'm getting tired of adding delete tags to all these article - could others here please help me out and keep an eye on any additional contributions this user makes? Thanks. Qwghlm 00:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've tidied up a few of the entries that are worth keeping. I would agree with all your deletion notifications. ArtVandelay13 09:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Joycie 15]] 

message: Please comment here, thanks! jacoplane 08:22, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Champions League article 

message: There is currently a proposal on Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion to rename  and its descendants to . Oldelpaso 18:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Go forth and object! Budgiekiller 18:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: footy-stub on Stubs for deletion