Talk:Béla Kun

message: What is known about Kun's fate following his trial? Was he executed, or did he die in a gulag? Everyking 23:51, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad to see that was addressed! Having something so quickly addressed like that doesn't happen often enough around here! Everyking 19:38, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: *His father was a lapsed Jew, and his mother a lapsed Protestant. His father was the village notary. Béla Magyarized his surname to Kun in 1906.
What *was* his surname before 1906? It's not addressed prior to that statement. Tetigit 09:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biography 

message: *Afterwards, the Romanians looted Budapest before leaving in November.  - please provide evidence for this piece of info. like : is this a "common hungarian interpretation" or was it stated by a Court, like, did Hungary asked compensation for this looting or a declaration, something -- Criztu 13:28, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  i have a problem with that 

message: *To buy time, Kun tried to negotiate with the Allies, meeting the South African Prime Minister, General Jan Smuts at a summit in Budapest in April. Agreement proved impossible and Hungary was soon at war later in April with Kingdom of Romania and Czechoslovakia, who were aided by France.
i read that Hungary started the war with Romania in april 1919. Altho the current formulation is ok, it leaves the reader with no clue about whom started the war. -- Criztu 10:12, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  did Hungary of Bela Kun attacked ROmania in 1919 or what ? 

message: From everything stated in the article, Béla Kun was neither religious (all the contrary), nor a Zionist or otherwise Jewish identified, nor brought up in a Jewish environment, nor was his mother Jewish. Also, even if he had been Jewish by any definition, this would be completely irrelevant except for the same kind of antisemites who attacked him. There's no point in stating someone's ethnic ancestry in such a prominent place as is the introductory sentence of an article. This reeks of Jew-spotting. I removed the word "Jew" as well as his alleged name of birth (Aaron Cohen) which doesn't even match the name given in the first paragraph, Béla Kohn. The word "Jew" was added by the openly racist (Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/List_of_White_supremacists diff) ex-user Exil2.--84.188.180.40 17:08, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jew-spotting 

message: I think this article is far from npov, ground informations are missing and full of with lies (see victims of 5000  of White terror). I think it will be neutralized soon. If I were more unpatient, I would edit in a POV template. Gubbubu 09:26, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please give sources there were more than 100. i don't know any serious sources would say that 1500 is a serious estimate. Please read this:
# Sajátos “számháború” bontakozik ki a tankönyvek lapjain arról, hogy tulajdonképpen hány áldozata is volt a fehérterrornak Magyarországon. Azt a tényt, hogy a zsidó és kommunista egyre ment a különítményes tisztek szemében, csak Hosszú írta le. Ő közli azt is, hogy 626 meggyilkolt áldozat esetét sikerült dokumentumokkal is bebizonyítani.32 Lator csak annyit ír, hogy “Napirenden voltak a gyilkosságok… Fölerősödött az antiszemitizmus.” De mivel ennek okairól egy szót sem szól, a tény megmagyarázása valószínűleg a tanárok feladata marad. Salamon Konrád 600 áldozatról tud, de nem említi, hogy Horthy különítményesei nemcsak antikommunisták, hanem fajvédő antiszemiták is voltak.33 Itt is megfigyelhető, hogy Salamon sokkal kritikusabb a baloldali, mint a jobboldali diktatúrákkal szemben.
# A Benkes–Borsányi–Kende és kollégáik által írott tankönyv 1500–2000 főre becsüli a fehérterror áldozatainak számát, szintén nem utalva arra, hogy köztük a zsidók “túlreprezentáltak” voltak, de pontos adatokat közölve a legálisan letartóztatott és elítélt emberekről is.34 Az amerikai holokauszt-szöveggyűjtemény Böhm Vilmos volt hadügyi népbiztost idézve 5000 főre teszi a meggyilkolt forradalmárok számát, mit sem törődve azzal, hogy a szakirodalom ezt a becslést már évtizedek óta túlzottnak tartja.35 Ormos Prónay Pál fehérkülönítményes parancsnok vélekedését idézi, aki szerint Horthy eleinte azért nem mert gátat vetni a zsidók elleni “büntetőexpedícióknak”, mert különben a “nemzeti oldalon álló” tábor elpártolt volna tőle.36 A kérdéskörrel kapcsolatos szakirodalom eddig nem hangsúlyozta, hogy Horthy Sir George Clerknek, a párizsi békekonferencia képviselőjének nyomására már 1919. november 1-jén határozott hangú nyilatkozatban ítélte el a zsidóüldözést, és vizsgálattal, haditörvényszékkel és a Nemzeti Hadseregből való kizárással fenyegette meg a bűnösöket, a tetteseket és az uszítókat is.37 
# I must remark this source says that only 626 dead victims are proved with documents.40
# Gubbubu 12:57, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Béla Kun returned to Budapest on 17 November, 1918, but the article states that he founded the MKP on 4 November, 1918, in Budapest. Which statement is wrong? --Comrade Che 1 13:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth of the Hungarian Communist Party 

message: The whole story about Kun's being tortured by the NKVD comes from Krivitski (I was Stalin's agent, 1940), who defected in May 1937. The problem with it, that at that time, Kun had not yet been arrested. Thus I think this statement could be removed, though it is possible that he was tortured.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz (talk • contribs) 13:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kun's torture after his arrest 

message: Borsányi quite clearly showed that the authors who stated the alleged executions refer to each other and that the common source is unknown Redcross nurse. It would have been impossible to identify the total number of dead (if you know Crimeria, you know why) by one person, not to mention the problem of separating these dead bodies by the cause of death. I have no doubts that there were executions there and probably quite a few.
As to the upset in the Bolshevik Party, he gave speeches to the Congress, he was elected to the Engerebüro, he was sent to Berlin - these quite clearly suggest the opposite. However, it does not mean that in the fraction-struggles, the allegations was not used against Kun.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz (talk • contribs) 14:35, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change to Crimeria section 

message: He really looks like Frank Sinatra, doesn't he ?
Look at photo in article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.28.81.129 (talk) 10:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Kinda, but do have a look here before you decide to edit in such nonsense. Dahn (talk) 10:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  looks like Sinatra! 

message: I removed the following" "Although Kun was hostile to all forms of religion, his partial Judaic ancestry and his advocacy of revolutionary communism resulted in hatred both for him and for actual members of Hungarian Jewish communities."
Sorry, an assertion like this had better be *very* carefully documented--which I rather doubt it can be.Doprendek (talk) 18:54, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assertion that Kun caused anti-Semitism in Hungary removed 

message: The article cites some very spurious sources to claim that 50,000+ were executed in the Crimea. Rayfield is not a historian and his book was not issued by an academic publisher. He doesn't cite any source to support his claim. So we have no way to verify what he says.
Gellately's book, which was not published by an academic press, is also cited in this article, even though he has zero qualifications on Russian history. Gellately's is a recognized expert on Nazi German history: his research chiefly consists of The Gestapo and German Society: Enforcing Racial Policy 1933-1945 (Oxford University Press, 1991) and  Backing Hitler: Consent and Coercion in Nazi Germany (Oxford University Press, 2002). He can and should be cited about Nazi Germany, but not for Soviet-related stuff. 
  
The source that Gellately does cite is the polemic "Black Book of Communism", which cites the discredited anti-Soviet agitator Melgunov for its allegations. Melgunov himself cites anti-Soviet newspapers claiming that 50-150 thousand were killed in the Crimea in a reign of terror. Melgunov, however, is not a reliable source: he was an apologist for the White leaders and lied about them. The scholar P.A. Golub for Dialog (August 2003) journal writes:
:"In 1923, S.P. Melgunov, one of the most active instigators of civil war and apologists of Kolchak and other military dictators, issued in Berlin a self-righteous opus "Red Terror in Russia 1918-23". In this work, he hypocritically cried, "Where and when in the government policies and even the press of the anti-Soviet camp will you find theoretical justification of terror as a system of government? In bourgeois cricles, this man was considered a venerable historian and wrote a three-volume work "The Tragedy of Admiral Kolchak". He seems to know nothing of the monstrous cruelty such as the "Law on Rebellion" ordered by the Admiral on March 23, 1919, barbaric practices against Siberian partisans, the order of 14 May 1919 to shoot without trial soldiers who refused to kill their fellow human beings, and many other savage acts of the "supreme ruler" He knew of course, but persistently told the big lie about the White regimes not practicing systematic terror."
What's worse is that Melgunov's allegations are discredited by more modern Russian observers. It turns out that the mass terror in Crimea during 1920 described by Melgunov's propaganda is dubious.
:"Melgunov gives different numbers of victims of the Bolsheviks in the Crimea: 100-120 thousand or even 150 thousand. The "Red atrocities" written about by Melgunov were implausible because when I was living in Sevastopol in 1948, none of the local residents talked about them. At this time, witnesses had been living for at least 30 years. Compare this to how it's been 50 years since the end of World War II, and millions of witnesses are with us to talk about it. In addition, my grandfather with his family lived in the countryside of Crimea during and after the Civil War, and my father, who was 14 years old, lived in Simferopol. I did not hear anything about these "Red atrocities" from them. Furthermore, in Sevastopol two older brothers of my father were captured White soldiers. One of them was wounded in Perekop and was treated in hospital. None of them were subjected to violence or exile. To clarify what happened what did not, I turn to a resident of Sevastopol, Vladimir Kulich, almost 90 years old: It was in 1920, at age 11, he saw a lot, but he emphatically said that he did not witness or hear about the "atrocities" described by Melgunov. No one at Sevastopol was executed, and no civilians were repressed. Moreover, ordinary soldiers in Wrangel's army were left alone and untouched. It is true that the Germans hanged, but the Reds did not.
This article falsely states about Wrangel: "They had surrendered after having been promised amnesty if they would surrender." This is not true ! This is what really happened: Frunze promised Wrangel mercy for surrender. But Wrangel ignored this and ran off with his troops to Constantinople. 
:When Frunze broke into the Crimea, Wrangel appealed for French assistance in evacuating as many of his army who wished to escape the Bolsheviks and offered his entire navy and merchant marine for comepnsation. On November 11, Frunze broadcast an offer of amnesty in exchange for the surrender of the White forces. He promised a "full pardon for acts commited during the civil war" and "unimpeded departure" for those not wishing to remain in Russia, provided they swore a solemn oath to abstain from participation in further struggle against the Soviet government...There was no response to the Soviet proposal, for as Wrangel prepared to leave Sevastopol he was not thinking in terms of abandoning the struggle but of renewing it in the spring. He had placed his surviving forces under the protection of France  not to be caried safely into exile but to begin their reorganiation for a new campaign. In three days Wrangel embarked the best of his troops and an equal number of civilian refugees, and steamed for Constantinople. On the afternoon of 14 November the evacuation was complete; the following morning the Red Army entered the city unopposed. 75.51.172.94 (talk) 03:01, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section about Crimea 

message: Shame on wikipedia for tolerating such anti-semitic drivel. ranging from claims that ninety-five percent of the Hungarian leadership was Jewish, to the alleged "appointment" of Janitors working as synogogues as Commissars. There is NO credible evidence, aside from the anti-semitic heresay of a single reactionary who has long been discredited, to suggest this. There is documented evidence that aproximently 50-60 percent of the Hungarian leadership was Jewish. 30/49 of the Hungarian Commissars were jews, that isn't 95%.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.114.22.201 (talk) 22:33, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  REALLY? 

message: Kun's Jewish family background probably wasn't too important to him personally, but it played a prominent role in numerous political and anti-Semitic polemics by various others.  For those in the 1920s who claimed that the enemy was "Jewish Bolshevism", Béla Kun and Trotsky were Exhibits A and B.  There should be more about this on the article... AnonMoos (talk) 11:30, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It's funny, because Bela Kun's mother was a gentle, and therefore by laws of Jewish matrilineality, Bela Kun was a goy.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8388:541:E300:2D25:7042:8DAB:C33D (talk) 12:58, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, his mother, Róza Goldberger was of Jewish heritage, but converted to Protestanism. However, by declaring who would be considered Jewish, are not necessarily decided by the laws of Jewish matrilineality, from non-Jewish viewpoint (i.e. see racial laws of some countries before/during WWII).(KIENGIR (talk) 13:33, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Jewish connection

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion