Talk:Scott Helvenston

message: To the anon: STOP inserting your pov. JCS had live overhead footage of the assault and correlated with the widely-publicized press photos of the crowd that's pretty good evidence. Moreover, HUMINT sources and SIGINT intercepts (they boasted about the killings in their own communications) confirmed their identities - these weren't random people deciding one day to kill a white guy - they were well-known members of the insurgency. --Mmx1 04:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Identified -> Suspected

message: I changed the image to another one because the one beforehand was copyrighted. The new one falls under fair use.--Kolrobie 01:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  changed the main image 

message: I'm aware that this will be a contentious edit, and I'm not sure why. Here's my argument: He perfomed MILITARY FUNCTIONS in Iraq with a MERCENARY COMPANY(who are already in the same "Mercenaries" category) for the purpose of FINANCIAL GAIN rather than any social or political cause. I suspect that the issue with be that he was an American, but that's just a matter of semantics. If anyone can put forward a convincing argument that he was indeed NOT a mercenary, he can be removed from the category. Otherwise he stays. --68.149.181.145 22:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What military functions?  He didn't participate in raids, he didn't seek out enemy combatants.  He was a private security guard engaged by two private companies that were shipping out kitchen supplies.  The only difference between his duties and those of a guard for a Brinks armored car is that the neighborhood he was running through was more hazardous.  I'm removing it from this page. 71.136.180.146 (talk) 01:25, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

text: To be a mercenary one has to be taking part in a conflict to which one's nation is not a party. The Iraq conflict was a war between the United States and Iraqi Sunni Insurgents and foreign Arab Islamic Jihadists, so any American (or any other national whose home country was part of the coalition) cannot objectively be defined as a mercenary regardless of whether they were participating as a combatant or as merely armed security protecting civilian diplomats, aid workers, and reconstruction employees, as Helvenston was.Walterego (talk) 20:55, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Placed in "Mercenaries" category 

message: The allegations were very strong and one sided since there was no mention in the section of the defense to them. Since there is already a page dedicated to the court case, it isn't necessary to have them here. I left the important and relevant information about the case. HotshotCleaner (talk) 20:57, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Allegations 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Since that page has been created it has been false. The entire internet uses it as the lone source without documentation. How can it be corrected?  Seal7987 (talk) 19:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: If there's a reliable source we can cite to that says so, we can note that the claim is disputed. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 19:52, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: How do i forward documentation? Seal7987 (talk) 20:11, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: There's nothing to be forwarded. The documentation needs to be in a verifiable, reliable source. See WP:RS for what qualifies. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 21:41, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for responding. The issue here is the youngest  Seal to graduate, so its birthdays and graduation dates. My source is a email from Naval Special Warfare, that i wasnt permitted to share that email.. Would you agree that the US Navy is a reliable source? A verifiable source?  Seal7987 (talk) 01:07, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the format that's the problem and matching the source to the claim. The issue in this case wouldn't be the reliability of the U.S. Navy as to DOBs and graduation dates. That's fine in this specific case for Scott Helvenston (we have a different rule for public records for living persons). The problem is the lack of it being published in a reliable source in a way that readers could verify. An email generally cannot be used as a reliable source unless it's been published, in a verifiable manner, to something that *is* a reliable secondary source. So like, if that email were published on a Navy Times article, we could use the contents of it by just pointing to the Navy Times article itself as the source. But Wikipedia itself can't be the original publisher of that email, someone else (typically a media website, academic or historical paper, or a book) publishes it first and then we can cite to the claim they make. The other thing is, and I know it may sound dumb, but we can't just "do the math" ourselves. That's considered synthesis, which is also a form of original research. So, by themselves, the DOB and graduation date aren't enough. For us to include the claim that Scott wasn't the youngest SEAL, the source would have to actually make the claim that he was not youngest SEAL, not just list his age and graduation date. Unfortunately, this is a challenge when working with military articles, but particularly those in the SOF community due to the way Team culture works, not to mention classification and PERSEC issues. If you could find somewhere that would publish that email, I'd seriously look into taking that approach -- it'd be a pretty newsworthy story so I think you might find some traction there with military-specific outlets. Or maybe Don Shipley's site might cover something like this? Sorry, I don't have any easy answers there.⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 02:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Youngest Navy Seal