Talk:Duchy of Samogitia

message: :I'm inclined to repeat - please move the article back to the proper naming, unless you'd provide undisputed reference. Please note, that article wasn't and still isn't referenced despite one of the editors attempt to talk other users otherwise. As promised just above, I've made inquiry to accademic researchers - and the "Duchy" does not seem to be the popular or widely used name.--Lokyz (talk) 20:14, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: While you repeat your unspecified ORish claims, I have above presented references - such as the work of historian Błaszczyk, proof that Duchy is 10 times as popular in English sources as Eldership/Starostwo, and scans of old maps using Duchy, that all support the "Duchy" version.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  20:19, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yawn. For the record - A. the "references" are discussed just up above (and they seem to be rather week). B. the article is unreferenced as for now (as it is said above, and the article is tagged as such). C. I'd be glad if someone would try to evaluate the context they're used (for example is it in 13th century, 14th or 19th maybe?).--Lokyz (talk) 20:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yawn indeed. You failed to provide either any criticism of the references I provided along other lines than WP:IDONTLIKEIT, and you have failed to provide any references to support your "eldership". This is why I have requested this RfC, and as I've indicated above, I will not continue this pointless discussion with you alone.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  20:44, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest you to have a cup of WP:TEA, and after that reread the discussion above. Until then I'll stick to WP:DNFTT. Have a good day.--Lokyz (talk) 20:58, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: RfC re naming

message: As I have noted above, historian Grzegorz Błaszczyk is the only one who - as far as the refs provided show - addressed the issue of naming of this entity. From the footnote #1 in his Żmudź w XVII i XVIII wieku: zaludnienie i struktura społeczna (p.1 and p.2):
* late 15th and mid 16th century: Ruthenian zemlja Žomojtskaja, sometimes Žomojtsjom povete, rare Žomoit, (velikoe) Žomoitskoe knjaz'stvo
* from mid 16th century: Polish Ziemia Żmudzka
* from 17th century: Polish Księstwo Żmudzkie which was the official name until the second partition of Poland (1793), when another name was introduced (województwo żmudzkie)
* starostwo żmudzkie is used occasionally, it is however unclear and confusing and should be avoided in modern publications (it can refer not only to the Duchy, but the the estates of starosta)
Q.E.D. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  22:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: PS. In the long English summary (p.174-177) Błaszczyk uses Duchy, and certainly not Eldership is mentioned.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  23:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is not fully correct. It was Witold/Vitaut/Vytautas who finally secured Samogitia for the GDL in 1411 (). Thus, Samogitia became a stable part of the GDL only in the early 15th century. It also implies that Samogitia did not participated in the creation of the GDL. If somebody believes that the last sentence is incorrect, comments (supported by quotations/links) are welcomed. CityElefant (talk) 16:54, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Grzegorz Błaszczyk on the naming

message: I've read through the Duchy vs. Eldership story above. According to  , the book I've been using for tracking down the exact names for the Polish-Lithuanian administrative units. Zmudzkie is listed among Voivodeships  with exception that it's the only one that's called Starostwo. It seems to me the confusion between Duchy and Eldership has originated from the fact that some royalties did hold the title "Duke of Samogitia", just that it doesn't mean there actually was a Duchy as a Principlity that was ruled be a Duke, it was just a titular thing. Exactly like there wasn't a Duchy of Livonia later in history even though Swedish kings and Russians tsars did hold the title. Since Zmudzkie Starostwo in Polish refers to "starosta of Samogitia" or "Samogitia eldership" according to The Economic History Review By Ephraim Lipson, based on the fact that In Samogitia the elder fulfilled the duties of the voevoda according to The Lithuanian Statute of 1529  Karl von Loewe, looks like the article should be renamed accordingly.--Termer (talk) 07:28, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the name change is incredibly misleading and disappointing. I don't understand the reason for it in spite of reading this whole page.  Who was the Duke of Samogitia other than a nominal title of some foreign king?  174.73.19.153 (talk) 03:08, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duchy vs. Eldership or Starosta 

message: What is the point of having so many maps depicting Samogitia in this article? This map adds nothing new to the article and doesn't even show all the Samogitia. The description “In 16-17ct Samogitia covered large part of today's Lithuania” is pointless, because modern-day Samogitia covers a large part of Lithuania as well, just to a lesser extent. — Glebchik (talk) 13:12, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  UrusHyBy's map