Template talk:Country data Northern Ireland

message: THis is not the Flag of Northern Ireland and should not be used as such.--Vintagekits 23:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In the context of how this template is most often used (to render icons for sports teams and athletes), it most certainly is the correct flag.  Look at the FIFA website for one confirmation.  Andrwsc 00:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The use of this flag by any sporting body dosen't confer any legitimacy on it, it was the former flag of the Northern Ireland government which was disbanded in 1972 by the British government, therefore the flag has no legal standing.--padraig3uk 02:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it has to have any legal standing to be used in this context.  Andrwsc 23:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why dont we use the tricolour then as it is also used at sporting occasions. This hasnt been the flag of Northern Ireland since the 1970's.--Vintagekits 23:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The tricolour is used to refer to the Republic of Ireland national football team.  Again, see the FIFA source.  These are two different teams.  Andrwsc 00:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Andrwsc, to use the UB and claim or confer it has legal standing because its used by a sports body is wrong, the flag has political implications, in Northern Ireland it os a symbol of Unionist oppression over nationalists.--padraig3uk 23:57, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I don't even know what a "UB" is, and I'm not claiming any "legal standing" whatsoever (in fact, the reverse - I'm saying that "legal standing" is irrelevant).  This flag is used by organizations such as FIFA.  I've seen it on television next to Darren Clarke's name in international golf tournaments.  When source material for sporting events use this flag to refer to Northern Ireland, then it is not unexpected that Wikipedia editors want to mirror that same notation for sports results pages.  I don't even know who Unionists or nationalists are or what they want.   Andrwsc 00:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Followup: here is another external reference that uses this flag in a current sporting context.  Andrwsc 00:12, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This template is linked to many articles not related to football or sport, it even links to the Northern Ireland Assembly election, 2007 article, therefore the template is used for political purposes and it POV.--padraig3uk 00:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, certainly the right thing to do would be to change the articles in which "political purposes" are involved, instead of changing every article that transcludes this template to display some confusing blue blob, would it not?  Andrwsc 00:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is easier said then done, as in many cases the link is through other templates being linked to this one.--padraig3uk 01:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok, I found and read Northern Ireland flags issue and have a (slightly) better understanding of your concerns.  I also figured out what the heck "UB" meant.  Still, it seems clear to me that the image used on this template is widely understood and reasonably accepted in the sporting context, which appears to me to be the majority of articles that transclude this template.  Therefore, I re-assert that the best course of action would be to look at individual articles and decide what to do rather than change this template to use the blue ink blot (which doesn't appear on the Flag of Northern Ireland at all).  And as for the update, it actually is easier than I suggest, not more difficult, because if you make changes to templates that use the image (such as ), you can update many articles at the same time.  Andrwsc 01:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  as you suggest contains links to a number of other templates some of which that display the flag, these are protected and can't be edited.  This is the same with other templates linked in the same manner.--padraig3uk 01:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If I might help with a general clarification about page protection: Page protection is not meant to prevent changes to pages. You can request any change on any page, including templates, by adding  to your request on the talk page or asking any admin directly to do the change (provided you can demonstrate consensus/no opposition for changing). Most protected templates are protected due to vandalism concerns – not to prevent regular changes. --Ligulem 12:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't understand.  If you think that the flag is inappropriate for that set of articles, just remove the  string from .  You don't need to change anything else.  Andrwsc 01:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Agreed; I've started a sandbox page that moves the Ulster Banner to banner and football variants to still allow its usage in sports contexts (, ), while using a blank flag if no variant is used ((). You'll probably need a broader consensus to change the live template, however. SiBr4 (talk) 11:15, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Incorrect flag

message: I would like to change the alt attribute of this template.  In most browsers, when you mouse-over the image, you will see "Flag of Northern Ireland", and I think it is preferable to see "Ulster Banner" instead.  I'm also expecting that someday the image file itself will be changed (e.g. to :Image:Ulster Banner.svg on Commons), but that is a different issue.  If I change the alt attribute now, it would also read "Ulster Banner" with the union and assembly flag variants, which is clearly incorrect.  Therefore, I would like to propose the removal of those two flag variants.  After the big debate a few months ago that led to their inclusion, I note that the union variant appears to be completely unused, and the assembly variant is only used in two places (one template, one article).  Comments requested before I do anything.  Andrwsc (talk) 21:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is no real evidence of the name Ulster Banner being used outwith Wikipedia- Red Hand Flag is more common for example. Perhaps Unofficial Flag of Northern Ireland would be better (per Britannica and World Flag Databse)? Astrotrain (talk) 22:11, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed change 

message: How about the Assembly fag to be added to the template as an option? It could be used when the term Northern Ireland is used in lists that require a flag (eg List of national anthems).
It strikes me that since the choice of passports, the Union Jack fits best as a full-on "national" flag (and I've always seen Northern Ireland is a created British country, though it's more complex than that I know). I am just about to try using the 'union' parameter, since someone has removed the current NI flag from the national anthem list (ie. the automatic 'Ulster banner' on the template - which sounds like an unhappy compromise, reading the above). It will show the Union Jack, but I don't hold a lot of hope in it sticking.
If the Assembly flag would stop people from removing the flag in these type of lists, why not have the option to use it? It is clearly designed to be a striking symbol - perhaps with this use in mind? I don't think the Welsh Assembly even has a flag (there is some kind of 'caligraphy' version of the dragon they use as a symbol). The Scottish Parliament flag is very officious-looking and has it's full title on it. Perhaps using the Assembly flag could cover dual citizenship better too? At the moment the List of national anthems corrupts when someone clicks on the up/down column arrow, as the lack of NI flag (though it's the only flag that is missing) confuses it - not an ideal situation (to state the obvious, I know).--Matt Lewis (talk) 00:26, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I find it a bit of an anomaly that N.Ireland has no flag to represent it on wiki. This is why I support Matt's proposal to use the Assembly flag. It was also used to represent Northern Ireland on the one pound coin which was minted in 1986 and the eary 90's as shown in the article One pound (British decimal coin). It does represent the whole of N.Ireland, thus the reason for my support for Matts proposal. I hope others will give their views on this idea. Thanks. Titch Tucker (talk) 16:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assembly flag as option? 

message: I would like to request for opinion and up to date consensus with regards to the flag used in .  The current flag is the Ulster Banner ().  It's use is inappropriate to represent Northern Ireland since the Ulster Banner is no longer the official flag of Northern Ireland and for this reason I feel it should be replaced (but not by the absence of any flag or symbol).  It was suggested previously that  is used.  Opinions please. Qwerta369 (talk) 12:44, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking at the discussions above, this issue has been raised before. To amend this template would involve having to amend approximately 2,500 articles where the use of the flag is appropriate, such as certain sporting articles where its use is correct and pre-1973 uses of the flag and so on. It seems an awful lot of work for someone when it is generally simpler to weed out the incorrect uses of the flag. I have no real opinion either way, other than the lack of change of this template does not make the use of the flag valid in inappropriate articles. O Fenian (talk) 16:35, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Inventing a flag  is against policy: WP:OI Gnevin (talk) 11:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  This issue needs to be resolved ASAP and can't be dragged on and on. The fact remains that Northern Ireland does not have a flag of its own that is official. The permanent removal of the old defunct Ulster banner needs to happen rather than talking about it. Eireabu (talk) 18:09, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is strong consensus—backed by WP:Reliable sources—to use this flag on Wikipedia pages where it is appropriate (mostly sport-related pages) and remove the flag icon from pages where it isn't appropriate.  Either way, there is no reason to change this template. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:19, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: What Andrwsc said. I do however think there may be value in making  an option, or perhaps explaining how to use  in the documentation. While most of the uses I've seen are appropriate, I'm sure there are a lot of inappropriate ones around. —WFC— 18:57, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  is definitely the correct option for those instances where a flag is undesirable, since it will not render any placeholder PNG file, but instead simply indent the succeeding text.  I have just created Template:Country data Northern Ireland/doc, which is automatically transcluded. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:03, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just for the record Northern Ireland has NEVER had an official flag. The Ulster Banner was the flag of the defunct government NOT of the province/region/country* (*delete where appropriate). Let's get shot of it. I have sometimes used  which uses cc3|NIR to replace the flag with NIR. The fact that there are 2,500 articles that NEED changing is neither here nor there. At the very least we should be enforcing the Irish Manual of Style on this (which is currently not happening) unlike Derry/Londonderry. Bjmullan (talk) 22:05, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for consensus - flag 

message: With Ulster being included in related links, should not the other three provinces (Leinster, Munster, and Connacht) be included? --The Three Headed Knight (talk) 05:31, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The other three provinces are not connected to Northern Ireland. McLerristarr | Mclay1 17:01, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other provinces 

message: Shouden't we add more flag options? According to the Flag of Northern Ireland article the "St Patrick's Saltire is used the by government to represent Northern Ireland when a uniquely Northern Irish flag is required". Maybe also the Flag of Ulster. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 08:40, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done for now: This is a little bit too vague for me to know what you want to be done. Could you add the proposed changes to the sandbox first? Once you've done that, reactivate the template and I'll copy the text over. Best — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 16:16, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add more flag options 

message: Requesting that the flag of the Northern Ireland Assembly and the St Patrick's Saltire, which is sometimes used to represent Northern Ireland in politics, be added to the list of variations. The proposed changes can be seen in full here. This will give people valid alternatives to use, other than no flag, when the Ulster Banner and Union Flag are not suitable to represent Northern Ireland. Clyde1998 (talk) 14:51, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Done – Train2104 (t • c) 20:59, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template-protected edit request on 6 June 2017 

message: "assembly" currently points to the PNG file File:NI flax V1.png. An SVG version is now available and this template should be updated accordingly: File:Flag of Northern Ireland Assembly.svg. Thank you. Carter (talk) 15:29, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request: Update Assembly Flag to SVG version 

message: The proposed changes can be seen in full at Template:Country data Northern Ireland/sandbox.
The proposal includes Carter's request of using an SVG file for the Assembly's flag instead of the current PNG.
Furthermore, the proposal uses the blank :File:Flag placeholder.svg as the default flag, with the Ulster Banner remaining a variant that can be used in certain contexts. This is appropriate because the Ulster Banner is not the Flag of Northern Ireland. We had a similar situation with Mississippi, which did not have a flag for a while, and we used the placeholder flag back then. It is not appropriate to use the Ulster Banner as the default flag, like the template currently does, because it is not the flag of Northern Ireland. --Fippe (talk) 12:13, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Question, how would this affect all the current uses of the flag? The vast majority of the 10,000+ are used in a sporting context, and if the change involves a lot articles it might be simpler just to manually police usage, as happens at present. FDW777 (talk) 12:18, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: A quite convenient situation for Ulster Banner supporters. --Fippe (talk) 12:28, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Which I am clearly not. FDW777 (talk) 12:44, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

text: , the .png has been converted to .svg. In the article Flag of Northern Ireland, the fact that the Ulster flag is no longer official is supported, but it goes on to say that the flag is still used "as the flag of Northern Ireland by loyalists and unionists, and to represent Northern Ireland internationally in some sporting competitions. So it appears that consensus is needed to remove it. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 15:56, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not necessarily against the change, as it would hopefully result in less policing of incorrect uses. It's the potential problems the change may cause I'd like clarified. There are currently 11,060 uses of the flag, the majority of which are accurate (and many of which use this template to display. For example Bristol City F.C. (the first article on the list] uses  twice and  once. Since that's a football article, those are correct uses. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the proposed change will simply amend every use like that to a blank flag instead? FDW777 (talk) 16:02, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I think you're correct. It would change all usages including the sports articles. The only other alternative would be to use the official flag, the Union Jack, instead of the Ulster flag. Using the placeholder flag seems to me to be ill-advised. There might be an uprising of both Ulster-pro and Ulster-con editors!  P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 16:53, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you've a problem there, then, because there is no official flag for NI, and using the Union Jack as a default replacement would be completely inappropriate. It is likewise inappropriate to use the flag of an institution (e.g., the NI Assembly) for anything other than the NI Assembly.  It's quite possible any uses in a sporting context are also incorrect - if representing a national team, it is usually more appropriate to use the flag (if any) of the sporting body representing that sport.  So I would support either a) leaving things as they are at present; or b) using the blank placeholder with no optional parameters. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 18:57, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The status quo means the Ulster Banner, I fail to see how that is appropriate. --Fippe (talk) 19:05, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The status quo means the Ulster Banner in appropriate contexts, it's specifically mentioned at Template:Country data Northern Ireland#Other information, WP:IRISH FLAGS and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Icons#Overbroad use of flags with politicized connotations not to use it in certain circumstances. You're acting as though it's used inappropriately in hundreds of articles, it isn't. There probably are a few incorrect instances in the list provided that need changing, but I can assure you they are a small percentage of the total as I try and keep an eye on things. What's been suggested will cause problems on many, many, football articles (which make up the majority of the uses) and nobody has yet said they are going to step up and fix the problems this change will create. FDW777 (talk) 19:22, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not everyone who uses  has read several manuals of style. It is not weird to assume that  yields the appropriate flag, and not an unofficial flag which may be used for some football events but is very inappropriate to use in most other contexts. It is not exactly future-proof to rely on a single user who promises to "keep an eye on things" in case someone uses the template intuitively again. --Fippe (talk) 20:04, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You've still failed to explain who is going to fix the huge mess this change will cause. I assume by your failure to answer that you have no intention of doing it? FDW777 (talk) 20:44, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

text: The proposal is to change the template so that if anyone uses  or  (and potentially some more, I'm not sure how wide the effect would be) it would, by default, display a blank flag. So for example at Bristol City F.C. the flag next to Tommy Doherty at Bristol City F.C.#Awards would become blank, similarly at Bristol City F.C.#Managerial history the flag next to Peter Doherty would become blank. Many other sporting articles currently use those and, at the moment, there is no information as to who will be fixing the mess it will cause. FDW777 (talk) 21:17, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Got you - in which case I oppose any suggested changes. As you rightly point out sportspeople use the Ulster flag and that should be displayed where appropriate, rather than a blank flag.
*My support for changing this template would be conditional on not having the default flag be blank. From an eyeball, it looks like the vast majority of these are sports articles, for which the Ulster flag would be the default. I would oppose any change which would make a blank flag display when the Ulster is the default for most flag use cases. Now, the flag use on Dwight D. Eisenhower is a separate thing... SportingFlyer T·C 21:30, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

text: *My concern with this is someone adding a blank NIR template to a new sports page would be confused due to the lack of a flag, since the flag situation isn't obvious. SportingFlyer T·C 11:39, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: * that sounds like it has potential, since the cleanup aspect is the most difficult. I will add that there are other templates such as  and  (and potentially others, I'd prefer it if someone technical could make sure there is a full list of flag template variants affected) as well as . You'd also need to do "|Northern Ireland|banner" as a variant text, as that's used as well as NIR. FDW777 (talk) 14:18, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template-protected edit request on 9 May 2021 

message: Talk:Comparison of alphabetic country codes#Northern Ireland flag. FDW777 (talk) 13:32, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Related discussion 

message: There should be a null or blank flag, since NI has no official flag. The Ulster Banner (current one used) is highly political and not offocial.Eccekevin (talk) 01:28, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The Ulster Banner is still used to represent the Northern Ireland football team, Commonwealth Games team and individual athletes form Northern Ireland. The consensus on Wikipedia is to only use this flag in sporting and historical contexts therefore the image is still appropriate. There are plans to adopt a new "civic flag" to represent Northern Ireland which could be added to the Northern Ireland country data if and when a design is agreed. Cordyceps-Zombie (talk) 07:25, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Blank Flag

message: This has been much discussed but no consensus has ever been reached. As Northern Ireland has no official flag to represent Northern Ireland specifically, at least not yet, it would seem sensible to me for the "Northern Ireland" flag template to direct to a blank template.
The Ulster Banner (which is currently linked when the Northern Ireland flag template is used) has been agreed to be used only pertaining to sports organisations that use it and in a historical context. As such it should be a variant ("banner", perhaps), but linking it as the flag for Northern Ireland is currently not suitable in my opinion. 
Bbx118 (talk) 19:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the main usage of usage of this template would be for sporting events, where Northern Ireland uses the Ulster Banner. Having a blank flag as the default was cause problems with Template:Flagicon (and related offshoots), which gets regularly used in sporting articles (especially related to the nationality of sports people). The only official flag in Northern Ireland is the Union Flag, however that would cause ambiguity between whether it's supposed to represent Northern Ireland, the United Kingdom (or Great Britain) or certain British Overseas Territories when using Template:Flagicon. I think with this template's most predominant usage, the Ulster Banner is the most suitable flag to use to represent Northern Ireland, with the caveat it should only be used in sporting or historical contexts. Clyde1998 (talk) 15:00, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutral Flag/Consensus on Template