Talk:Team B

message: I typed in "team b" and rumfeld and here is what I found:
====San Francisco Chronicle====
In the 1970s, when President Richard Nixon's policy of detente was under attack by some former military officials and conservative policy intellectuals, Ford administration officials Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld were among those challenging as too soft the CIA's estimate of Moscow's military power.
Rumsfeld and Cheney wanted to create a "Team B," which would have access to the CIA's data on the Soviets and issue its own conclusions. Cheney, as White House chief of staff, and Rumsfeld, as secretary of Defense, championed Team B, whose members included the young defense strategist Paul Wolfowitz, who a quarter-century later would be one of the chief architects of the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
====CommonDreams.org====
Nixon left amid scandal and Ford came in, and Ford's Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld) and Chief of Staff (Dick Cheney) believed it was intolerable that Americans might no longer be bound by fear. Without fear, how could Americans be manipulated?
Rumsfeld and Cheney began a concerted effort - first secretly and then openly - to undermine Nixon's treaty for peace and to rebuild the state of fear and, thus, reinstate the Cold War.
And these two men - 1974 Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Ford Chief of Staff Dick Cheney - did this by claiming that the Soviets had secret weapons of mass destruction that the president didn't know about, that the CIA didn't know about, that nobody but them knew about. And, they said, because of those weapons, the US must redirect billions of dollars away from domestic programs and instead give the money to defense contractors for whom these two men would one day work.
"The Soviet Union has been busy," Defense Secretary Rumsfeld explained to America in 1976. "They’ve been busy in terms of their level of effort; they’ve been busy in terms of the actual weapons they ’ve been producing; they’ve been busy in terms of expanding production rates; they’ve been busy in terms of expanding their institutional capability to produce additional weapons at additional rates; they’ve been busy in terms of expanding their capability to increasingly improve the sophistication of those weapons. Year after year after year, they’ve been demonstrating that they have steadiness of purpose. They’re purposeful about what they’re doing."
The CIA strongly disagreed, calling Rumsfeld's position a "complete fiction" and pointing out that the Soviet Union was disintegrating from within, could barely afford to feed their own people, and would collapse within a decade or two if simply left alone.
But Rumsfeld and Cheney wanted Americans to believe there was something nefarious going on, something we should be very afraid of. To this end, they convinced President Ford to appoint a commission including their old friend Paul Wolfowitz to prove that the Soviets were up to no good. 
====americanprogress.org====
Many of the very same people who deliberately created the misimpression about Iraq to goad the American people into supporting a war had already executed a run-through of the same strategy in the 1970s. Back then, establishment hardliners associated with the now defunct “Committee on the Present Danger” heaped scorn upon the professional intelligence services for their alleged underestimation of Soviet military capabilities. They succeeded in convincing then-CIA Director, George H.W. Bush, to appoint a now infamous "Team B" to go through the same material and come up with an answer that would justify a vast increase in U.S. defense spending. With the powerful political patronage of then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, its members, including Paul Wolfowitz, came up with astronomical numbers for alleged Soviet military spending and capabilities. As Newsweek’s Farred Zakaria, a moderately conservative war supporter, has observed, “In retrospect, Team B’s conclusions were wildly off the mark.” It argued, for instance, that back in 1976, the Soviets enjoyed "a large and expanding Gross National Product." It credited them with double the number Backfire bombers the nation could actually produce. It turns out that even the CIA’s much pilloried estimates for Soviet military capabilities were far too generous. Sounding very much as if he were talking about Iraqi WMD capabilities 30 years later, Rumsfeld claimed, “No doubt exists about the capabilities of the Soviet armed forces.” Think Again: Team 'B'  Travb 00:24, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Typed in team b and rumsfeld in google

message: Many of the very same people who deliberately created the misimpression about Iraq to goad the American people into supporting a war had already executed a run-through of the same strategy in the 1970s. Back then, establishment hardliners associated with the now defunct “Committee on the Present Danger” heaped scorn upon the professional intelligence services for their alleged underestimation of Soviet military capabilities. They succeeded in convincing then-CIA Director, George H.W. Bush, to appoint a now infamous "Team B" to go through the same material and come up with an answer that would justify a vast increase in U.S. defense spending. With the powerful political patronage of then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, its members, including Paul Wolfowitz, came up with astronomical numbers for alleged Soviet military spending and capabilities. As Newsweek’s Farred Zakaria, a moderately conservative war supporter, has observed, “In retrospect, Team B’s conclusions were wildly off the mark.” It argued, for instance, that back in 1976, the Soviets enjoyed "a large and expanding Gross National Product." It credited them with double the number Backfire bombers the nation could actually produce. It turns out that even the CIA’s much pilloried estimates for Soviet military capabilities were far too generous. Sounding very much as if he were talking about Iraqi WMD capabilities 30 years later, Rumsfeld claimed, “No doubt exists about the capabilities of the Soviet armed forces.” Think Again: Team 'B'  Travb 00:24, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: americanprogress.org

message: This article is pretty well sourced, but completely one-sided. It seems to be a little sloppy in places in terms of quotes used, connections drawn etc. There are a couple instances of scare quotes and pejorative labels. heqs 05:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please continue to find sources that make it "less POV" (ie supportive of your view). I welcome this. Good job adding the quote. Please continue.Travb (talk) 05:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It just needs a little softening up. I mean this basically reads like a hit piece. heqs 06:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So do the pieces on Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Charles Manson. Sure, any comparison is hyperbole, but the problem is that there aren't many defenders of Team B, because there's not much to defend about the project. This was an end-run around the intelligence agencies whose goal was to justify conclusions that had been made in advance. It's not that controversial a point. I'm all for showing all sides of the story, but sometimes there really isn't that much of an other side. That said, I don't think the article has to be an assassination piece; it should be descriptive, and the various views about Team B should be properly sourced. But we shouldn't try to create an illusion of balance at the expense of truth.--csloat 06:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't have to know anything about Team B to tell that the article was largely written in an ideological tone by person(s) ideologically opposed to the venture. That kinda sets of the alarm bells. Not much of an other side? Let's not pretend that this isn't yet another left-right, dove-hawk, tug-of-war with plenty of ranting and raving on both sides. (And yes, your comparisons are strange.) heqs 07:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, it's not a left-right tug of war with ranting and raving on both sides. If you don't know anything about Team B, you should read some of the sources listed here, or do your own research if you don't trust the sources cited here. You'll see that there really isn't much defense of Team B to include here. It was a politicized organization whose goal was to develop intelligence to support conclusions that had already been reached rather than the other way around. That's why people are so critical of it. If you find information that it had other goals, please by all means include that information here. But don't accuse people of ideological bias when you admit yourself that you don't know much about the topic.--csloat 07:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I just reread the article and I don't understand your objection at all. It seems extremely balanced to me. The first section is purely descriptive, and, while there is some criticism (not nearly as much as one can easily find by picking up a few books on the topic, or even through a google search as others note above), the article concludes with positive quotes about Team B. I see you've made a number of changes, so perhaps you've balanced it out yourself. If so, what is the current objection?--csloat 07:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't say I didn't know anything about it. I meant that one wouldn't have to, to detect the strong bias present. I've tried to balance it a smidge. Typically, criticism and after-analysis would get its own section, rather than mashing together Team B's findings with its critics. Given the way this particular issue unfolded over the years, the article may be appropriately styled. I'd like to leave the flag up for a few days to see what others think. Thanks, heqs 09:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems reasonable to me; sorry if I came off too aggressively.--csloat 09:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I reverted back the one-liners about the members. IMO, on a list of names like that, either we give a convenient label (like "hawk") to everyone, or simply state their position at the time (not their future position), or leave it up for people to decide for themselves who they were. Preferably the latter. heqs 10:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For instance, you mentioned that Paul Warnke was in the Arms Control and Disarmament Agency, yet next to Wolfowitz, rather than state he was also a member of ACDA you put a quote that casts him in a less than flattering light. heqs 11:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV check 

message: Typically, criticism and after-analysis would get its own section, rather than mashing together Team B's findings with its critics. Given the way this particular issue unfolded over the years, the article may be appropriately styled.
I will add a criticism section--good idea.
i really liked your changes. Good job. It is a more balanced article now. I added back three sentences, two of which explain who these people are. But all of the other changes I kept.
Signed:Travb (talk) 09:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted back the one-liners about the members. IMO, on a list of names like that, either we give a convenient label (like "hawk") to everyone, or simply state their position at the time (not their future position), or leave it up for people to decide for themselves who they were. Preferably the latter. heqs 10:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For instance, you mentioned that Paul Warnke was in the Arms Control and Disarmament Agency, yet next to Wolfowitz, rather than state he was also a member of ACDA you put a quote that casts him in a less than flattering light. heqs 11:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: criticism and after-analysis would get its own section

message: Team B was a competitive analysis exercise created by American conservatives in the 1970s to counter a group of CIA intelligence officials known as Team A.
I am not sure if Team A was made up of CIA intelligence officials. I don't have access to the book Killing Detente, which talks about this subject ad nauseam right now, and a cursory glance at some of the articles I posted don't come up with much with "team a" so I can't confirm it. Travb (talk) 09:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Right now I'm reading this article by Richard Pipes and it makes quite clear that Team A was the CIA and Team B was the "outside experts". They met face to face before senate committees and such. It's quite an interesting read. I like how Pipes takes a rather dispassionate, clinical approach when discussing these things, even though he was directly involved. One of the things he touches on is that much of the media reaction at the time was unfounded, as the documents themselves were all classified. It was Pipes himself who pushed for declassification. (IMO, the only serious criticism of Team B started with Cahn's research and FOI requests) heqs 09:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: thanks for clarifications.Travb (talk) 17:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Team B counter(ed) a group of Team A CIA intelligence officials.

message: * The weapons and detection system predictions seem complete garbage.
* accuracy (I'm unclear whether their predictions of accuracy was true or not)
* intentions (Pipes claims that they were 100% correct)
Is there really no counterpoint to Pipes view on Soviet nuclear intentions? If there isn't then the article seems to be somewhat unbalanced to team B's detriment. If there is then perhaps we need to point this out more in the article.WolfKeeper 02:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The three subteams are indicated in the intro. That said, I agree, and the article is still quite a mess. I must question the reliability of some of TravB's heavily partisan sources. This article was written as a one-sided hit piece on Team B, and could still use an almost complete re-write with a more level headed approach to the whole thing. heqs 00:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought we had this discussion a while ago; repeating the canard that this was a "one-sided hit piece" is not helpful to anyone. It wasn't and it isn't. There were some balance issues that you helped sort out, but that claim is unfounded, and you removed the NPOV tag after your problems with the article were addressed. But your view of Team B seems to be idiosyncratic; the literature on the issue seems to lean much more in the direction of criticism than even this article does. In any case, I agree this article has problems, but a "one-sided hit piece" it is not. csloat 23:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it's better now than before. It was quite clearly a one-sided article before. "One sided hit piece" is not a canard, I'm only suggesting that the article suffers from the fact that its premise was partisan and could still be improved greatly. heqs 16:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have complaints about a specific sentence or paragraph please let us know. As I said, your view appears to be idiosyncratic; complaining that a piece relatively fairly representing the consensus view is "one-sided" is a bit hysterical, and calling it a "hit piece" borders on mind-reading those involved in the editing process. Again, I don't think it's helpful at all -- if you have improvements to suggest, please do so. This article is not "one-sided" and it was never a "hit piece." csloat 17:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Am I missing something? Aren't there basically 3 subteams to team B? 

message: The report is apparently declassified and presumably public domain, being funded by the government. I googled, but couldn't find it. Anyone know if it's online anywhere?WolfKeeper 20:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like these commies are good for something: Team B Report.Torturous Devastating Cudgel 19:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Report online? 

message: This is just ricoculous:
:Team B came to the conclusion that the Soviets had developed new weapons of mass destruction such as a nuclear-armed submarine fleet that used a sonar system that did not depend on sound and was, thus, undetectable by contemporary Western technology. 
The, ahem, “RightWeb” sources need a serious re-evaluation based on the fact that we can now have access to the report. The report (p 35-37) actually argued that despite the NIE’s assessment that the Soviet Navy was not aggressively developing more accurate ASW detection tools and would not be able to deploy new more advanced ASW capabilities in the next 10 years, the evidence in the NIE suggested that they had significantly ramped up ASW R&D, including non acoustic methods (which according to these sources, they were developing non-acoustic detection methods , ). This section in the report had nothing to do with the development of submarines, just ASW technologies which naturally would include sub based, surface and airborne ASW equipment. Also, the deployment of new ASW equipment would not effect the detectability of Soviet submarines, as the above passage states, but it would effect the detectability of US subs.
In light of the accessibility of the full report, this article could use a lot more work. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time for a rewrite 

message: Why use RightWeb as a source? RightWeb is a better source of information than most websites, because it uses other sources to verify its information, and lists them at the bottom of each page. Anarchangel (talk) 20:50, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and btw, fighting ad hominem fire with the same, TDC / Torturous Devastating Cudgel, who wrote all these sections bemoaning a perceived bias and attempted to rewrite the article accordingly, is a banned sockpuppet. Anarchangel (talk) 20:53, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Right Web is a reliable <u>re</u>source 

message: not using sonor would mean a submarine was.... pretty undetectable. should we now undo all of Torturous Devastating Cudgel's edits because of his biased error? Dedwolfen aug13 1:55pm
"Using active sonar is somewhat hazardous however, since it does not allow the sonar to identify the target, and any vessel around the emitting sonar will detect the emission. Having heard the signal, it is easy to identify the type of sonar (usually with its frequency) and its position (with the sound wave's energy). Moreover, active sonar, similar to radar, allows the user to detect objects at a certain range but also enables other platforms to detect the active sonar at a far greater range." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonar#Warfare
: I am sure your vast knowledge of ASW far outstrips mine, but submarines are not the only platforms used for ASW. Also, the Soviet navy was developing and deploying non acoustic ASW platforms from the late 60’s on. The Ka-25 BSh, first deployed in 1967, carried the first Soviet MAD platform. 20:34, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Ka-25 uses sonobuoys and dipping sonar which are both acoustic means of detecting sonobuoys, as well as radarWolfKeeper 00:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

text: There's two sorts of sonar, active and passive. Active is detectable/detects at greater range. Passive has lower range, but does not reveal the listener to other sonar. Submarines take great pains to make their submarines very quiet to decrease the range that they are detectable at, but they AFAIK they still need to go into silent running mode for that to completely work.WolfKeeper 05:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  not so ricoculous!! 

message: whoever put those in why not use the summaries in the actual report? i am going to change those to the ones in the actual report. they more acurately reflect the silliness of the report. the summaries in the article seem a little "doctored". anyway the article ones are original research i think, a strategic improvement... that down plays some of the more ridiculous claims. Dedwolfen aug 13th 2:51pm
: I prefer to use condensed summaries because they are more encyclopedic. "Doctored"? Do tell. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please take care when deleting the summaries. I believe they add valuable context and links to relevant articles. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:50, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  summaries of part II 

message: Its findings were leaked to the press shortly after Jimmy Carter's 1976 presidential election win in an attempt to appeal to conservatives in both parties and not appear partisan.Christopher Andrew. For the President's Eyes Only. Page 424.Dana H. Allin. Cold War Illusions: America, Europe, and Soviet Power, 1969-1989. Page 61.
or
Its findings were leaked to the press in an unsuccessful attempt at an October surprise to derail Jimmy Carter's 1976 presidential bid.
Travb (talk) 23:48, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering that the "leak" did not appear until December of 76, I would say the prior. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 01:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But December is the new October! csloat 17:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Cha-ha. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 19:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. Travb (talk) 22:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I think the latter is correct as to the chronology, actually, but as it was unsuccessful, the former is almost close enough. Read what Cahn wrote about it: "Each B team met in September and October and exchanged drafts with their CIA counterparts during October. The first press leak occurred two days after the first meeting of the CIA and Team B members who were examining Soviet strategic policy and objectives." -- Team B: The trillion-dollar experiment, linked from the Team B page, I believe. -- 66.57.251.96 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Which version correct?

message: TravB, you need to stop posting another author's work as though it were wiki-original (copyvio). Whoever else added the fake references, as in the pon-ref which never linked to anything, needs to stop. No one should be attributing content to "Right-web" or other obviously unreliable sources. Perspicacite 03:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What precisely is supposed to be copyvio? Quote it here, along with the link to the web page.WolfKeeper 03:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Taking another author's work and pretending it was written by Wikipedians = posting a copyvio. Travb posted content taken directly from Michael Flynn's article on Right Web. He posted it word-for-word. Notice how the paragraph on Wohlstetter is the exact same thing on both versions. Oh, and if there's any question, the Right Web article was published in 2004. Travb posted back in 2005. Not that this matters since Right Web isnt a reliable source in the first place. Perspicacite 03:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which bit, precisely? You do know that fair use covers 1-3 sentences, particularly if you're quoting and referencing them???WolfKeeper 03:23, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He isnt quoting the content. He, and you, both posted the paragraph as though it were original content. Fair use has nothing to do with taking another author's work and presenting it as your own and referencing is totally irrelevant. Perspicacite 03:31, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By referencing you are saying that the basic work is somebody elses. Copyright only covers the exact representation, not the ideas behind the representation. The wikipedia contains almost nothing but paraphrasing of other's work. That's what an encyclopedia is. Paraphrasing and referencing many sources and assembling them into an article is called research, and is not immoral or illegal.WolfKeeper 22:00, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyvio

message: I've had CSBot look at both the previous and current revisions and it found no copyright violations (ferreting those out is CSBot's primary function). It is not infallible, since it can only compare (obviously) to online sources, but unless one is provided, there is no indication that any copyright violation is taking place. (Paraphrasing contents from another source may or may not be plagiarism, but it certainly is not copyright violation which requires that prose be copied substantially).
Further reversions using copyright violation as a reason should provide the source of the material copied mostly verbatim, or might be reasonably viewed as disruptive.
In addition, the edit dispute also seem to shift points of view rather strongly, regardless of the invoked reason for the edit. Everyone here should take a moment to assess whether they are striving to remain neutral.
Regardless of allegations of copyright violation, www.irc-online.org appears to be a reliable source per the guidelines (it is edited, published in print and has notable contributors). Reliable source, however, does not mean neutral, and it's important that no undue weight be given to any one source— especially when its neutrality is disputed.
:It's not about the neutrality of the source, it's about the neutrality of the article though, it's perfectly proper to include non neutral sources. NPOV is not the absence of POV it is when all POVs are given appropriate weight in the article.WolfKeeper 03:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Wohlstetter paragraph is taken verbatim from IRC. I would consider this to be a substantial impropriety regardless of classification as plagiarism vs copyvio. Perspicacite 03:29, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which bit, precisely? Claiming copyvio when there is none is very serious; and you broke 3RR.WolfKeeper 03:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, actually, 3RR doesnt apply to reverting copyvios. Especially not when the user is warned. Perspicacite 03:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no copyvio, you have been unable to produce it, when asked multiple times, the bot cannot find it, and neither has anyone else that has looked.WolfKeeper 03:45, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Third opinion.

message: Can anyone source John Connally's participation in Team B? Perspicacite 03:29, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, taking a closer look I find that most of the grammar is messed up too. I'm done trying to improve this article. Go ahead and revert to the barely intelligible version that attributes its content to far-Left and nonexistent websites. Or, better yet, just post their content and pretend its yours! I imagine it cuts down on the work-load. Perspicacite 03:47, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: John Connally

message: Please refrain from deleting large sections of referenced material which does not match your own POV. Sigh, unfortunatetly, this is not the first time I have witnessed this.
I would appreciate this same courteousy with my own referenced edits. If you disagree with the policy assesments of these experts, the easy option is to remove these assessments you simply dont like, the harder route is to actually find contrary sources which contradict these assesments. I welcome the later, and look forward to your addition excellent sources, such as the team b document.
Please explain where in wikipolicy that policy experts cannot be quoted in articles.
I appreciate your additions to the article, quotes from the actual team b document, which I have not removed, and which I would defend if someone attempted to delete, as I did with your referenced additions to Phillip Agees before. Travb (talk) 22:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Trav, I think that having an assessment is good, but it shouldn't be a editorial or evaluation by WP staff. Perhaps it would be better to use direct quotes from the sources. There seems to be a fine-line between the assessment and criticism sections. Should these be combined? --Kevin Murray 22:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure combine away :) Travb (talk) 03:00, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment section

message: i recommend axing the summaries as a) they are longer than the actual report b) they are wildly innacurate
misrepresentation of the sources. c) the 'context' that is offered is unsourced fabrication. i put up the
SHORTER summaries that were in the actual report but those were removed for some curious reason...
Dedwolfen
* A) Ther report is 50 pages, so little merrit here
* B) Please give an example
* C) Please give an example
Torturous Devastating Cudgel 18:53, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: are you talking about the 2 sections? Team_B#Detailed_Sections Didnt you add this section? Travb (talk) 01:03, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ricoculous summaries 

message: No sourcing for such a claim has been made, and as per Wikipedia:Categorization of people, such a categorization should rest on self-identification. In fact, Team B was formed when the movement commonly mislabelled neoconservative was still in its embryonic stage. RayAYang (talk) 22:28, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Team B was an epic moment in the short history of the movement, that's why it was labeled that way I'm sure. I'll leave the category out until sourcing is established but the point is pretty obvious, and I'm fairly certain a source was given for this quite some time ago. I also believe the other comments you removed (about critics on the right and Mr. Bush) were sourced in a discussion here about a year or two ago but I won't re-add them unless I find the sources. csloat (talk) 07:42, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Epic moment? It doesn't show up in the article on Neoconservatism at all. If it's relevant, it's perhaps relevant in the same way that the Chinese Revolution of 1912 was an epic moment in the evolution of Maoism. Maoism could not have happened without the Chinese Revolution, which was a precursor. But a neutral observer of history would not say that the Chinese Revolution was a Maoist event, although many of the people who would later make contributions to Maoism got their start in the Chinese Revolution. Just as the Chinese Revolution predated Maoism, Team B predated the evolution of the modern neoconservative foreign policy establishment, which coalesced during the Reagan Administration. RayAYang (talk) 21:38, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it's not just that it predated it; it's that we saw the same group of people engaged in the same method to pursue the same ends - it just hadn't had a name yet, apparently. It's not just a "precursor"; it's the exact same thing. But again I'm fine leaving this as is until sourcing is established, and it's not important enough to me to look up at the moment. csloat (talk) 23:23, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You can try, but frankly I'm skeptical as to your success. Paul Nitze is old super-establishment, nobody's idea of a neocon. The others on Team B include US Army officers and the like, to say nothing of Richard Pipes, a Cold Warrior of long standing. Wolfowitz is about the only unambiguous neocon on that list. Interestingly, Irving Kristol, Podheretz, and the like, were creating the neocon movement at about the same time. But this list screams establishemnt and Cold Warrior to me more than neocon. RayAYang (talk) 02:29, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess I don't see those two categories as mutually exclusive, but it's neither here nor there.csloat (talk) 05:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Umm. How about this reference linking this to neoconservatives: . This is a BBC documentary. The BBC are generally considered to be a reliable source.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 01:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neoconservative category is ridiculous 

message: I have noticed that a user named Commodore Sloat is constantly editing the articles, related to the supposed "neocons". I did a cursory check of Commodore Sloat's edits, and it appears the vast majority of them serve to promote his personal viewpoint on the matter, rather then providing facts and other valuable information. Given the persistence of Commodore Sloat's editing, the articles tend to get contaminated with a very distinctive viewpoint. This goes against the fundamental principle of Wikipedia - Neutrality...not to mention that Wikipedia is being [mis]used to promolgate certain political views.Keverich1 (talk) 01:02, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You've probably misunderstood the concept of NPOV. He's allowed to say almost anything provided it's referenced to reliable sources. Only to the extent that he can't back it up with reliable sources, or to the extent that there is consensus that he has gone beyond due weight is he not allowed to do that.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 01:26, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Hey Kev is there a specific edit you have a problem with? My edits do not reflect my personal views on anything; they reflect only what can be found in reliable sources on the issues. If you can point to a particular error I've made I'll gladly address the issue and correct it if necessary. csloat (talk) 02:25, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serious POV issues in the article 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Team B. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060419035243/http://www.commondreams.org:80/views04/1207-26.htm to http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1207-26.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 11:29, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I've added the largely under reported story of biopreparat and the intended desire to overtake Washington in nuclear superiority.
I'd like better refs for the biopreparat paragraph, than the BBC/who are by no means neutral or scholars but for right now, they'll suffice.
Boundarylayer (talk) 04:20, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: they were correct, not in crystal balling exact numbers but the sentiment

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Team B. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120106220412/http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/team-b-the-reality-behind-the-myth/ to http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/team-b-the-reality-behind-the-myth/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100204090619/http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/newsweek/061603.html to http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/newsweek/061603.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060419035243/http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1207-26.htm to http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1207-26.htm
*Added  tag to http://www.livejournal.com/users/bailey83221/48481.html
*Added  tag to http://www.livejournal.com/users/bailey83221/48481.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070930183741/http://progressive.org/media_1137 to http://progressive.org/media_1137
*Added  tag to http://www.livejournal.com/users/bailey83221/48481.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:51, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified