Talk:Mark B. Cohen

message: This article on Mark B. Cohen's life and career is written in conjunction with the Wikipedia principles of Neutral Point of View, Verifiability, and No Original Research.  With 154 footnotes already--and more to likely come--this article has to be one of the more intensely documented in Wikipedia. Mr. Cohen's career has been very active and not very controversial.  In five of the last seven general elections, for instance, he has had no general election opposition.  In the most recent election in which he had general election opposition (2004), he received nearly 80% of the vote.  There is obviously a general consensus that he does a good job representing the people of his district.
Reporting the facts of what he has done is not engaging in a promotional tone or violating the Neutral Point of View rule. It is stating the record.  Those who agree with the record may be impressed; those who disagree may not be impressed at all. The important thing is that the record cobbled together from numerous sources--books, articles, organizational websites, online archives of the Pennsylvania House and other sources, the Legislative Journal for the House of Representatives, newspapers, etc.--show a public record from sources independent of Mr. Cohen that is worthy of public examination.
Zulitz (talk) 01:32, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering the lack of response regarding issues surrounding the NPOV and advertising tone, perhaps we can remove them from the article. Centerone (talk) 11:35, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Because there has been no response from the original complainant detailing why he or she believes the article violates Neutral Point of View or has a promotional tone, despite the passage of 15 months, and because Centerone has reached the conclusion that the tags can be removed, I am planning to remove the tags. I would note that over 300 footnotes and much additional factual material have been added to the article since the tags were placed, certainly making this article among the most footnoted and detailed in Wikipedia.  This article focuses intensely on Mr. Cohen's extremely long (and continuing) record in public service, a record that has aroused so little controversy that he has run unopposed for re-election in the 2006, 2008, 2010, and 2012 general elections, as can be seen by accessing the biennial editions of the Pennsylvania Manual or the PA Department of State website.  Criticisms of Mr. Cohen and praise of Mr. Cohen are both included in the article, generally but not always in footnotes, where they appear to be relevant, but the overwhelming focus is not on what anyone said about what he did,positively or negatively,but about what he has done or attempted to do. His career is an example of both the potential and the limits of state legislative service: the record of a state legislator is certainly of lesser import than that of a governor or US Senator, and nothing in this article seeks to exaggerate his importance or promote him for some other other office.  It is merely about stating the record based on the many readily documentable sources, the vast majority of which can be linked to.
 
Zulitz (talk) 13:21, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Continues to Be Improved; No Response Regarding Issues Surrounding NPOV and Advertising Tone

message: This is one of the most exhaustively-cited and longest biographical pages on all English wikipedia, and the vast majority of edits are from someone obviously too close to provide what could be reasonably considered NPOV. There were multiple notices on the user's page years ago that this was an advertisement page for a living person. This should either be nominated for deletion or cut down to something like other state legislator pages with a concurrent lock in place.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.196.5.26 (talk) 20:40, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is well-cited and detailed, and the problem with this is.. what?  As far as whether the person is 'too close' or not.. "It really doesn't matter if he is family or friend if the article meets policy." I am Wikipedia:Agf assuming good faith, and feel that his edits are NPOV.  The article might be a bit long, but what are we to do?  Dumb down articles to the lowest common denominator so that they're all stubs?  Okay, a few cuts could be made here and there, and perhaps the citations don't need to be so long, but it's certainly not advertisement-like in tone. The editor in question has a long history of editing articles dating back to 2004. He has edited many different articles of different types, with a bit of a focus on Pennsylvania politics and people with the surname Cohen, however, he has not neglected others.Centerone (talk) 21:04, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiple Problems 

message: This page is not unambiguously promotional, because it accurately and with extensive documentation details an extensive 39 year career in the Pennsylvania legislature--one of the longest state legislative careers of any state legislator anywhere now serving-- which is ongoing.  Nothing in this article is untrue. It has "substantial encyclopedaic content."  It has to be one of the most extensively documented articles in Wikipedia, both because of Mr. Cohen's long tenure and because he is a public figure whose activities have often been referred to in both Philadelphia media and Pennsylvania media, and occasionally referred to in media outside Pennsylvania and in books on various subjects. Praise and criticism are both generally dealt with in footnotes.  The overwhelming majority of the article deals with what Mr. Cohen has done and attempted to do. It is all objectively stated and footnoted: the fact that he has done and attempted to do a lot of things does not make this article promotional. It is an objective account of an extremely long career culled from articles, books, websites, and other publicly available sources. 
It is ironic that the previous complaint to this article just a couple of days ago alleged that that potentially negative material about Mr. Cohen was being posted; that potentially negative material was then deleted by the complainant. If the current complainant sees offensive promotional  material, he or she can delete that material in the traditional manner: deleting the article as a whole is a gross overreaction to an article whose comprehensiveness should be more widely emulated.  State legislators are public officials whose actions should be known by the general public; a stub should not be the typical article about a state legislator as it all too often is.
User: Zulitz Zulitz 3:52 p.m., May 2, 2013
:If you are referring to my comments about his Masonic membership, the problem was not that the information was potentially negative... but that the potentially negative information was supported by a source that was considered unreliable.  That double-whammy made it a violation of both our WP:Verifiability policy and our WP:Biographies of living people policy.  
:It is important to note that there is no problem with adding potentially negative information in our articles on living people (indeed a well balanced neutral article will include such information)... it simply has to supported by solidly reliable sources. 
:As for the deletion prod... I would also object to deleting this article.  While the current article may have problems, the subject is clearly notable enough for an article on him to exist.  The solution is to fix the problems with the article, not delete it.  Blueboar (talk) 12:40, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contested deletion 

message: Surely this article has long since moved beyond start class to the various Wikipedia projects.  Also, is it me or is the level of importance box messed up under biography/politics where it displays the voting box graphic and not the mid-level importance box?  Perhaps we could move it into the good article review process eventually in order to get some 3rd party reviews and input..? Centerone (talk) 04:05, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It is definitely no longer a "Start" class article.  And sending it through the GA review process would be helpful.  There is a lot of really good information here (thanks to the efforts of Zulitz)... but there is also a lot of fluff.  GA would help to tighten things up, and separate the "wheat from the chaff". Blueboar (talk) 12:19, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

text: Well... a local politician might not rate FA (Featured Article) status... but our goal is to bring all articles up to GA (Good Article) status.   GA has more to do with the quality of the article than the importance of the subject.  As for stability... "Stable" does not mean the article has been "frozen in time"... obviously as new events occur the article would be updated to account for them ... Stability really means the information and sources already in the article (as of when it is given GA status) are likely to remain stable. Blueboar (talk) 01:11, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It needs quite a lot of work for GA. As a biography, it ought to start with the subject's early life and education, then go through the career. Career achievements can be mentioned, as can both sides of any controversies. (There must be some controversies in the career of any politician.) Only mention political stances taken if they are unusual for a Democrat of his type or have received much press attention. At the moment it is too long and contains too much detail of political positions, too few biographical details. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:32, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Wouldn't it be great if we could have politics free of any personal controversies?  Mark appears to be one of those types of politicians.  The most controversial thing that I'm aware of that he's done seems to be his political viewpoints.  He's supported medical marijuana - which isn't terribly controversial when studies and polls have shown that approximately 76% or more people support it, and when it was brought to his attention how his constituents felt about the year of the bible resolution that was passed, he made an effort to get a resolution passed about that. I believe he may also support marijuana legalization in general (but he didn't put forth this bill), and glbt rights.  If an article is judged by the lack of controversies.. a lot of people may never have complete articles.  Maybe this is why some people have thought the article is NPOV or advertising like.  He doesn't seem to do much that is negative, unless you disagree with his positions. Centerone (talk) 16:08, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, it should have the main controversies. It just shouldn't waffle on. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:46, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  wikipedia projects/classes? 

message: I'm going to cut it down a lot, which will result in a much better, more usable article. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:43, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Cutting the article down

message: The address listed http://www.pahouse.com/cohen/  now points to the new elected representative's page.  Is there anywhere that the old page was archived that we can now point to?  The other external link http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/BiosHistory/MemBio.cfm?ID=268&body=H  now points to a historical bio. Centerone (talk) 18:49, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  State websites - archives?  

message: Hi! I'm the IP editor who started this (I got an account at the encouragement of others). We have cut a significant amount of fat from the article, but I do think that we need to go further--we can't just cut obviously unnecessary things. We also have to cut information that is valid but useless. This article shouldn't be a one-stop shop for his entire life; if someone wants to write a research paper about Mr. Cohen, they can look at newspaper sources--we don't need to provide everything right here.
I would add this graph to the records: https://nces.ed.gov/nceskids/createagraph/graphwrite.aspx?ID=3ffe5bd0fff246a5a72887e77da4e004&r=80039.0775989&file=png.
As that graph shows, this article exceeds in length the article on John Quincy Adams, who clearly is of significantly greater importance than Mr. Cohen. It is roughly double the size of the article on Pennsylvania Senator Pat Toomey, and about eight times the length of former Pennsylvania House Majority Leader Mike Turzai.
Isn't that insane? How could an article on a state senator be longer than the page of a president?
Again, we do not need to have everything about Mr. Cohen in this article.
Having said that, I will, unless others provide a justification for not doing so, be a bit more ambitious in cutting this article down.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThaddeusStevens (talk • contribs) 02:22, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Next time try to remember to sign your comments.  You do so by ending it with four tildes ~ next to each other. No, the length of this article isn't really insane. What part of this are you missing? It's been stated before. Mark Cohen has a history of public service that extends more than 42 years.  Pat Toomey is what? 12 years?  Mike Turzai is what? 16 years?  Mark Cohen served during a time where there is tons more media coverage and political activities than there was during 1700s and 1800s.   This really is NOT a race.  This is not a contest to measure who's _blank_ is bigger.  Your opinion of what is 'useless' may be different than someone else's.  I present as evidence, the fact that someone thought to include these things in the first place, and that they were included in the article for a long time, while referenced from reliable sources.  Centerone (talk) 02:35, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

text: Furthermore, you have betrayed yourself, by naming your account after Thaddeus Stevens.. a man who " was a member of the United States House of Representatives from Pennsylvania and one of the leaders of the Radical Republican faction of the Republican Party during the 1860s." It's clear here that your attempted gutting of a well-liked and relatively successful democratic member of the legislature is politically motivated, as I previously suggested might be the case, and as Jesse Rafe noted in your edits. Centerone (talk) 02:48, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good work, but more cuts are needed 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: About 40% of this page's length is the refs. They're absurd. I put in three separate bursts of energy trimming the bloat off this page in the past 4 years, paring off 25K, 30K, and 25K bytes in each episode, but it becomes too unmanageable, not just for the article's length, but in the weeds: reading and finding which sentences one wants to edit, move, or delete becomes untenable because of the hundred word ref descriptions. (Also, cute that "verylong" was added now at 116.7kB, it was 216.3kB when I first edited it on 9 January, 2014‎, and resting at about 220-240kB since 2012. If anyone wants to take another stab at trimming the article down to a more manageable length, both in word count and browser scrollbar maintenance, as a veteran of this Augean Stable, that's where I'd suggest directing first efforts. A lot of them are prose explanations of events or rules. Some of them are quotes from PDFs, which I guess are useful? Or should we just have a bare URL link to the PDF? What about the deadlink newspaper clippings, what standard should be applied so we don't indiscriminately lose information? JesseRafe (talk) 23:01, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refs trimming for length trimming 

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*Added  tag to http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/26494/Dems_Prepare_for_NC_Convention/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120824014306/http://www.democrats.org/2012-convention-delegate-list to http://www.democrats.org/2012-convention-delegate-list
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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:37, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Mark B. Cohen. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140104205400/http://www.scribd.com/doc/66081110/Rep-DiGirolamo-Fall-2011-Newsletter to https://www.scribd.com/doc/66081110/Rep-DiGirolamo-Fall-2011-Newsletter
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110724193744/http://www.youngphillypolitics.com/ to http://www.youngphillypolitics.com/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:45, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hey, I just got rid of superfluous information in the labor section. I really do think that this page needs more trimming. I think the refs would be a good area for future focus. Thoughts? --ThaddeusStevens (talk) 23:24, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some trimming 

message: I have a significant issue with Thaddeus Stevens' continued gutting of the article. I don't mind _some_ of his edits, but continued removal of huge sections at a rapid pace with just "removing fancruft" and other vague comments as descriptions, when removing large sections and multiple sentences covering numerous topics, is troubling, especially when it's previously been pointed out that he's an editor with a seeming biased intent.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mark_B._Cohen#Good_work,_but_more_cuts_are_needed  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mark_B._Cohen#Cutting_this_thing_down_to_size  Centerone (talk) 18:35, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ongoing Campaign to Gut the Article