Talk:Sandinista National Liberation Front/Archive 1

message: Is it a coincidence the similarity in colors of the Sandinista flag and the Spanish CNT and Falange ones?
I'd say the flag was based on that of Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement, if it was based on anything at all. Red and black are international colours of revolution. DO'Иeil 06:49, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)
It also looks a lot like the flag of the ELN.  See http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/c/co}eln.gif Descendall 09:27, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag 

message: Why do authoritarians that are communist posers (that's who they really are) always talk of struggle? Does anyone seriously believe that these people had good intentions when they nationalized ownership of the land from "Somoza collaborators?" It would be better to give it back to the original owners (the natives who farmed the land). While most of the criticisms are allegations, this revolution deserves the same criticism that the Nazis, Stalin Communists, and Falangists have. They are all authoritarian collectivists who will use any ideology to exert control on the uneducated poor. This is a continual theme in Central American politics, when you solely depend on the government for your freedom, you will not get it. Overall, the article should be more critical.
* First off, not all authoritarians are communists. The Nazis could hardly be considered communists - in fact, they hated communists. I'm not too sure about the Fascists, but I think they were staunchly anti-communist, too. Oops, didn't read carefully enough. Second, on the nationalizing land ownership, many of those "original owners" were the collaborators themselves, or were dead. I also find it rather odd that you lump the Falangists in with the Nazis and Marxists. They're certainly not appealing to the poor. Overall, I find that your criticisms smack of a communist-hunter mentality. This is an encyclopedia, not a propaganda piece. NPOV, etc, etc. --Aurochs
::I don't think the Nazis and Stalinists are really given a hard time at wikipedia. of course you are touching on very difficult issues, and as people have different views we have to make space for all views while sticking to the neutral point of view policy. As an encyclopedia we must reflect what the world knows about the subject, and not do our own original work. I strongly urge you to try editing the article, but be aware that others may edit your edits, SqueakBox 00:16, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
I'm am just trying say that all these types of revolutionaries tend to have the same themes. Glorifying a few leaders for doing atrocities. You can even make the same case when we glorify our own "heroes." I see Communists the same way I see fascists, they want to control my life. Going to college and seeing kids wearing "che" clothing is offensive and ironic. Che was a revolutionary against American Imperialists, (ignore the fact that the Communist nations such as the USSR occupied many sovereign nations)and that same type of contrarian attitude which is protected under our consitution were squashed under these regimes. This hits home for me because my Mother's family fled from Nicaragua during the revolution. My mother thought there would be change. The same corruption still exists while the poor starve in many parts of the nation. Overt nationalism in any form can be dangerous and rob the uneducated poor.
At my college,the funniest observation was a Che computer wallpaper on a toshiba laptop made in China. The dual ironies of America being chummy with a communist nation and computer that would never have been developed if Che had his way proves my point. Communism has never survived because people are not called on to protect themselves. The next time I hear, "what will the government do for us?" I see the US losing its soul. I do have primary sources of speeches my Grandpa made to Esteli condeming Somoza's regime. I could scan them. I am quite annoyed by the one-sidedness of my professors. I guess I am a communist-hunter, and proud of it. There have been no successful true communist nations. The best we can get is a mixed economy that ensures individual liberty.
"In 1959, Guevara was appointed commander of the La Cabana Fortress prison. During his term as commander of the fortress from 1959–1963, he oversaw the hasty trials and executions of many former Batista regime officials, including members of the BRAC secret police (some sources say 156 people, others estimate as many as 500). Poet and human rights activist Armando Valladares, who was imprisoned at La Cabana, documented Guevara's particular and personal interest in the interrogation, torture, and execution of prisoners." (Wikipedia)
"Come on you pack of drug fiends, come on and murder us on our own land. I am waiting for you on my feet at the head of my patriotic soldiers, and I don't care how many of you there are. You should know that when this happens, the destruction of your mighty power will make the Capitol shake in Washington, and your blood will redden the white dome that crowns the famous White House where you plot your crimes." (quoted in Zimmermann) 
"Facing the fact of not being heard on the political stage, Mao responded to Liu and Deng by launching the Cultural Revolution in 1966, in which the Communist hierarchy was circumvented by giving power directly to the Red Guards, groups of young people, often teenagers, who set up their own tribunals. The Revolution led to the destruction of much of China's cultural heritage and the imprisonment of a huge number of Chinese intellectuals, amongst other social chaos." (Wikipedia)
* And what, exactly, does any of the material in this rant have to do with the article? --Aurochs
Its pretty much  the truth of everything. Its ironic that saying the Sandinistas were an oppressive regime is considered a POV, but then again some people still dont believe the Earth is a sphere. My parents also grew up fighting Somoza, they weren't compelled to leave until they were so violated by Che Ortega's regime. They were far from being capitalist conspirators or "burges", they only wanted to have the freedom to debate like we are doing now. Reagan didn't care too much about the fate of Nicaraguan individuals, but the majority of Nicaraguans would pick Reagan over the Sandinistas except those who would directly benefit from their personal relationships with socialist leaders. (Jpineda84 01:43, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Authoritarians as a whole 

message: ...the National Assembly unanimously passed an Autonomy Law in 1987 that made Nicaragua the first American nation to recognise its multiethnic nature, guaranteeing the economic, cultural, linguistic and religious rights demanded by the indigenous groups of the Atlantic Coast.
Was it really the first?  Surely the United States and Canada had also done something by the mid-1980s to recognize indigenous rights, however unsatisfactorily from some points of view.  In the U.S., for instance, tribal treaties were already being enforced anew, and reservations have had autonomous self-government on a par with the states since the 1920s, IIRC.  Perhaps the author meant "Latin American nation"?  Or maybe the claim of being the first "to recognise its multiethnic nature" isn't really tenable on closer examination?  --Skoosh 19:46, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The first American nation to recognize its multiethnic nature"? 

message: This article has many POV claims which are unreferenced. This is a US-centric article. Beside, it is important to note that the Sandinistas organized the elections which they lost; after all, if they were so bad, they could have just indefinitely postpone them... Tazmaniacs
They were forced into elections.  The contra war had forced them to sign a treaty (Esquipulas II, 1987) guaranteeing elections.  After they lost they not only stole property, but government-controlled businesses to guarantee funds for their party. Kaven06 06:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Worldwide & unreferenced 

message: I've reverted edits by .  The quote he added was not only irrelevant, but mangled from the original which described Blandon and Meneses by name, not the Contras. —Viriditas | Talk 08:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert 

message: This seems a little bit biased? Maybe it's just me. It says:
"...the revolutionaries were perceived as proponents of “godless communism” that posed a threat to the traditionally privileged place that the Church occupied within Nicaraguan society."
It does not seem inconceivable, to me, that the Church would oppose "godless communism" because it placed itself vocally in opposition to any sort of faith in a man they thought (and still think, if memory serves me correctly) was God incarnate. It is not the 13th century, Innocent III is no longer in power; I am sure that if Ecclesiastical officials were interested only in living lives of privilege, and not in their faith, there would be far better ways of achieving their goals than through the church. This just seems logically more believable than what's up there now, to me.
There were three priests in the FSLN government. There was absolutely nothing ever done to oppose or hinder church activities in Nicaragua under the Sandinistas. A far cry from El Salvador in the same period where many priests were killed, many nuns raped and the Archbishop Ramos murdered.SmokeyTheFatCat 17:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relationship to Catholic Church 

message: In the first paragraph, "Opposition" is capitalized. Is this referring to some particular entity (in which case it should probably be linked) or not (in which case it should probably be lower-case). - Jmabel | Talk 00:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 'scuse me? This seems to have nothing to do with comment. - Jmabel | Talk 06:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proper noun & other things in lead paragraph 

message: The article is turning into a mess! Multiple reference sections, repeated information, that often contradicts itself, and boatloads of uncited material. Probably needs a rewrite. Suggestions for improvement?Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: References to the 84 elections were kept. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I though I only removed the contradictory ones, oh well my bad I guess. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 22:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What a mess!

message: There was a very good book/pamphlet of this title published by Oxfam some 20 years ago, long since out of print, in robust defence of the Sandinistas. Sandinista policies (land reform, literacy campaigns, healthcare provision etc.) were very popular among the people but threatened the profits of United Fruit(Dole) and Del Monte by taking some of their vast estates of land and redistrubuting them to the landless poor. Such a scheme of government would have been very popular throughout Central America and the Carribean. This was not acceptable to the Reagan administration and so all the nonsense about the 'Soviet threat' was made up and the Contras hugely supported. As was the case in Chile 10 years earlier profits for US-based multinationals were more important than human life.SmokeyTheFatCat 18:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The Threat of a Good Example" 

message: A dispute currently exists over the inclusion of material from Vasili Mitrokhin. Does the material conform with WP:RS and should details relevant to the subject be included in the article without prejudice? 
Discuss. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 23:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No need for discussion, see pages above.  Simply provide third party corroboration of Mitrokhin's fantastic claims.  Not repetition.  Not Vasily's author or hangers-on.  15 years since the USSR fell, someone must have corroborated Mitrokhin, if what he claimed about the FSLN sabotaging the United States from within were true.  Abe Froman 01:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I did see above and this was settled some time ago. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 01:40, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then why the need for this RFC.  Just provide links to satisfy the above, third party corroboration FSLN was sabotaging inside the US.  Links that merely repeat Mitrokhin's fantasy novel will not do.  Abe Froman 08:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC

message: I've removed the following paragraph from the human rights abuses section:
:Another tactic used by the Sandinistas was the indiscriminate shelling of towns recently captured by the Contras, an action which was viewed by many as "punishment." This Sandinista practice resulted in the Reagan Administration issuing orders to the Contra to stop further capture of cities and to concentrate on a "wasting" war while the U.S. was outspending the Soviet Union into bankruptcy, effectively curtailing the military support to the Sandinistas.
I'm unaware of any evidence suggesting that this was the case. Moreover, it is highly implausible. During the entire war, the Contras never held a city for so much as a day. I remember during the late 1980s there was an incident when this fact was being discussed during congressional debates, with members of Congress saying that they were reluctant to approve further funding for a military insurgency that had shown no ability to capture or hold territory for any significant period of time. Moreover, Soviet support for the Sandinistas continued until they lost power in the 1990 elections, so the notion that "outspending the Soviet Union into bankruptcy" curtailed military support to the Sandinistas runs contrary to known facts. This whole paragraph seems to me to be nothing but ideologically-motivated fantasy, and if someone wants to restore it, they have an obligation to provide credible citations for it. --Sheldon Rampton 06:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Human rights abuses 

message: TDC, I sense your influence on this article in the Cuban influence sections. While no one doubts the importance of Cuban teachers, doctors, and others in the Sandinista’s programs, there are a few sections that need citation. There are also a few sections that seem to be tendentiously written. 
“By 1970 the DGI had managed to train hundreds of Sandinista guerrilla leaders and had vast influence over the organization,” you write. “Vast” is an evaluative word that rarely belongs in an encyclopedia article, especially when it is such a powerful assertion about something that is little known and impossible to objectively measure: you’re talking about the influnce of the DGI on the Sandinista organization.
You follow by noting that the DGI’s influence after 1979, apparently already “vast,” still managed to expand “rapidly.” Your proof? Nicaragua and Cuba re-established diplomatic relations. And a DGI agent was named as the ambassador to Cuba. I’m sure you’re well aware that the CIA regularly operates out of US foreign embassies. I just don’t see how your characterizations are supported by the evidence you present.
You go on to present Álvaro Baldizón, a Sandinista defector I’ve never heard of, as the source of the amazing allegation that Cuban “advice” was treated as if it were “orders” by the Sandinistas in contact with the “over 2,500” DGI operatives “at all levels of the Nicaraguan government.” You use one defector to support the allegation that, apparently, the entire Nicaraguan government was a puppet regime of the Cubans. You are talking about a situation that is almost impossible to objectively measure and so it’s questionable if it should be an encyclopedia article at all. Your support for your amazing argument, again, is a single defector. 
Later on you provide such unsourced and amazingly evaluative gems as this: “While the Cubans would like to have helped more in the development of Nicaragua towards socialism, they realized that they were no match for the United States' pressure on Latin America.” They realized they were no match for the United States? Really? When did Fidel say that?
Defying rational belief, it goes on. Again, unsourced: “The commission has overseen approximately 300 million dollars (U.S) between the years 1979 and 1987 in assistance to Nicaragua and according to Prevost it does not include military aid or the cost for schooling Nicaraguans in Cuba.” I assume somewhere in Prevost’s writing you can find this figure. I wonder, however, if, in the Encyclopedia Brittanica, it would be possible to find any article anywhere that asserts a fact and cites a single author who wrote a book on the subject as the source (in the article, no less).
Another fact I’ve never seen: “Critics of the campaign contend that this effort was thinly disguised communist indoctrination, and point to the fact that elementary school books taught basic mathematics with illustrations of hand grenades.” 
You cite Prevost so many times, in these and following paragraphs, that I begin to get the feeling that you are student writing a book report. 
I don’t want you to think I’m picking on you. The paragraph about the Mitrokin Archive was obviously written by one of your detractors and contemptuously sums up Mitrokin’s work and dismisses it. I don’t see how that tone belongs in wikipedia either. I just mention the Cuban parts (apparently written by you) because they are such a glaring departure from what an encyclopedia article should look like. 
I could find a book written by someone who published in a relatively mainstream press to argue anything I wanted: from “the CIA staged the moon landing on a stage in Burbank” to authors who denied the existence of the Holocaust. Encyclopedia articles should cover information that is widely known by governments and non-governmental agencies with a neutral point of view.
--MarkB2 22:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Real quick, I did not write most of what you are attributing to me. The section on Cuba underscores the influence they had on the FSLN, but that is the only section I wrote in its entirety. I have been working on a major re-write of the article for a few weeks and will put it up when It is finished. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 14:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure the Sandinistas would be overjoyed to know that a guy with a devotional picture of Ronald Reagan illustrating his homepage will be writing their Wikipedia article. Please condense the Cuban sections, if you can, and delete or cite sources for the evaluative (i.e., editorial) parts.--MarkB2 07:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cuban Sections 

message: I've restored the human rights section that was deleted recently by an anonymous IP number. However, I've rewritten it somewhat, in particular a passage which alleged that Amnesty International had documented abuses in prison. While it's true that Amnesty documented a number of human rights abuses committed under the Sandinistas, I don't believe that their reports described the specific abuses mentioned in the paragraph I removed. Also, AI and other human rights groups noted a number of positive achievements and reforms by the Sandinistas in the area of human rights, so I've noted those as well.
It appears that someone (perhaps the same individual) has blanked the contents of the FSLN human rights abuses article. I haven't restored it, because the contents that were blanked are clearly problematic and extremely POV. For starters, they rely exclusively on right-wing sources. Moreover, the blanked contents go well beyond the claims made even by those right-wing sources. For example, the article relies on a Heritage Foundation article which alleges persecution of Jews, and claims that "Nicaragua was and is home to many Jews" — a claim that is contradicted by the Heritage article. In fact, Nicaragua's Jewish population was very small. (The Heritage article says the total Jewish population in Nicaragua shortly before the revolution was only 200.) The section on Jean-Paul Genie also contains a number of glaring inaccuracies, and the article throughout is marred by numerous spelling errors and other obvious flaws.
I think it would be fine to have a sub-article examining the Sandinista human rights record, but it should be based on reputable human rights observers such as Amnesty International, America's Watch or Human Rights Watch — not on ultra-rightist publications such as FrontPage Magazine. Also, it should have a less POV name. Instead of "FSLN human rights abuses," I would suggest "Sandinista human rights record." --Sheldon Rampton 04:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd bet that what with solidarity volunteers, the FSLN brought far more than 200 Jews into Nicaragua. I personally have known four who spent significant time there in those years. - Jmabel | Talk 06:44, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  For that matter, Herty Lewites, who was a respected Sandinista figure (Minister of Tourism during the 1980s, later mayor of Managua and a rival of Daniel Ortega's in the current presidential election until his untimely death from a heart attack) was also Jewish. --Sheldon Rampton 23:14, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Human Rights again