Talk:John Brown's Body

message: John Brown wasn't the dead deputy in Bob Marley's "I Shot the Sheriff". 
John Brown's Body is also a ska/reggae/jam band.
:Actually (not that it has anything to do with this article) John Brown was the sheriff, as in "Sheriff John Brown always hated me." 151.205.184.111 14:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

message: *An article on "John Brown's Body and "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" by Mark Steyn
This link doesn't seem to say anything about this song so I have removed it. If anyone knows where the link should point can they put it back?
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Sijarvis (talk • contribs) 09:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Steyn's website used to be updated weekly or thereabouts with different content at the same URLs. (I loathe websites that do that.) However, his website has been redesigned and now has stable URLs. Furthermore, he's recently posted the article about this song, so I've linked to it at the new URL (while doing a larger edit). Cheers, CWC 16:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mark Steyn Link 

message: So there is a version with one fully worked out verse, like so:
He captured Harper's Ferry with his nineteen men so true, /
And he frightened old Virginia till she trembled through and through, /
They hung him for a traitor, themselves the traitor crew, /
But his soul is marching on! 
but the rest of the verses are one liners?  This is disappointing, I had encountered the worked out verse in a John Buchan book years ago and thought I had a good idea of what some of the other worked out verses were likely to be. And still, I have to say that a single worked out verse is unlikely, I would still bet that the version given on the site is a degenerated version of a worked out song. I would imagine one verse went something like: 
It was down in bloody Kansas where the slavers rode abroad
He was called to be a soldier in the army of the Lord 
He smote their haughty power with his terrible quick sword 
And his soul goes marching on. ''
Similarly "grave" rhymes with "brave" and "slave"; a fully worked out first verse almost writes itself. If that is obvious to me I doubt it was any less obvious in the 1860s, when verse writing was much more common. I think there must be a lost fully worked out abolitiionist version, probably the original version, revisionist theories about the good-natured Sergeant Brown notwithstanding.
They hanged John Brown from a sour apple tree
As they hanged the Liberator long ago at Calvary 
He died a holy martyr so that all men would be free 
And his soul goes marching on! ''
To a Christian hanging immediately suggests the Crucifixion especially hanging from a tree, the cross has been described as a "tree" since the Middle Ages; and if the Christion happens to be also a verse-maker then "hanged from a tree" brings "Calvary" to mind almost automatically, its a good strong rhyme. Like "free", also a natural assocaition in the context. Oh no, I do not think we should be misled by Sergeant Brown. he is a distraction of the nature of "Ned Ludd"
Surely, it must have been something like that. Jeremy (talk) 08:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing verses?

message: I'm very unhappy about this page. The revisionist view, on the face of it ridiculous, is given far too much emphasis. Some fact tag are needed. I don't know what tag one puts up for "worthless citation" but I think a few of those are also needed. Jeremy (talk) 09:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Revisionism Overempahsised

message: The full William Weston Patton song from http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/johnbrown/brownbody.html:
John Brown by William W. Patton
Old John Brown’s body lies moldering in the grave,
While weep the sons of bondage whom he ventured all to save;
But tho he lost his life while struggling for the slave,
His soul is marching on.
John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true and brave,/
And Kansas knows his valor when he fought her rights to save;/
Now, tho the grass grows green above his grave,/
His soul is marching on.
He captured Harper’s Ferry, with his nineteen men so few,/
And frightened "Old Virginny" till she trembled thru and thru;/
They hung him for a traitor, themselves the traitor crew,/
But his soul is marching on.
John Brown was John the Baptist of the Christ we are to see,/
Christ who of the bondmen shall the Liberator be,/
And soon thruout the Sunny South the slaves shall all be free,/
For his soul is marching on.
The conflict that he heralded he looks from heaven to view,/
On the army of the Union with its flag red, white and blue./
And heaven shall ring with anthems o’er the deed they mean to do,/
For his soul is marching on.
Ye soldiers of Freedom, then strike, while strike ye may,/
The death blow of oppression in a better time and way,/
For the dawn of old John Brown has brightened into day,/
And his soul is marching on.
I think this song, written October 1861 and published December 1861, should be included on the site. The site I took this from (UMKC School of Law) also gives a simpler version of the song, and links to a pbs site on the history of the song which makes clear that the original teasing of Seageant Brown was indeed about sharing the same name as the abolitionist; the original song was thus by this account at least just as much about the abolitionist as Sergeant Brown. And it is still not clear whether or not the song was pre-existing as commonsense would suggest. Jeremy (talk) 00:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Not missing verses after all, and revisionist argument clarified

message: In the The Battle Hymn of the Republic article the song is credited to one Thomas Bishop. Who was this Thomas Bishop?
See the following site which asserts that Bishop wrote about the abolitionist, sadly doesn't give his original words:
http://www.providenceforum.org/default.aspx?pid=24
"History of the Battle Hymn of the Republic
In Charleston, South Carolina in 1853 a preacher, William Steffe, wrote a hymn, a camp meeting song evangelists called a “good shouter”. It went: “Say brothers will you meet us on Canaan’s happy shore. To watch the Jordan roar.” The melody caught on but the words didn’t. Sailors and soldiers made up their own words to the tune, upsetting Steffe. He had been trying to glorify God in his song and others turned it into a distasteful bar song. He thought himself, and his labor for the Lord, a failure. 
Then, a visitor from Vermont, Thomas Bishop picked up the tune while visiting the South. He returned to the North to join an infantry battalion stationed in Boston Harbor, Massachusetts. Soon after, abolitionist John Brown made his attack on Harper’s Ferry in 1859. Bishop decided to dramatize that event in song. He put together a marching song for the Tiger Battalion to the tune Steffe created: “John Brown’s body lies a moulderin’ in the grave. But his soul goes marching on.” Steffe would not have liked it – a Northerner using a melody written by a Southerner to arouse the anti-slave camps in the North....."
etc. This account has its own problems and doesn't immediately strke one as scholarly, but it also doesn't seem to be based on nothing. 203.87.64.23 (talk) 04:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Thomas Bishop

message: I found the following in the Time archive:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,770050,00.html?iid=chix-sphere
It seems to be the true story (it give publishing details of Bishop's song) and also contains the checkable claim that Bishop wote "When Johnny Comes Marching Home". It doesn't cedit Steffe, I'd guess that Bishop's tune was close enough to Steffe's to be assimilated. But that's just  a guess. But hey, so much for the revisionist nonsense.. Of course no reason to doubt that the boys did give good-natured Sergeant Brown a hard time.... Jeremy (talk) 02:50, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Credible story of how Thomas Brigham Bishop wrote ''John Brown''- source Time 1 July 1935

message: Is Karl Marx's Whiskers are Sixteen Inches Long, mentioned in Franklin Rosemont's biography of Joe Hill, and mentioned in The Big Red Song Book also a parody? Pustelnik (talk) 21:48, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Parodies

message: *So, I know there has been discussion here in the past on the authorship claims of Thomas Brigham Bishop.  I've just written an article on Bishop, so I invite your commentary on it.  Bishop was a fascinating guy, a clear teller of tall tales and not one to shy away from scams and grandiose claims.  I am interested in finding any other biographies or articles about Bishop directly, as writing this article required poring over many old sources about the different stages of his life.  cheers.--Milowent • talkblp-r 16:53, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Thomas Brigham Bishop]], once again 

message: The band Masters of Reality Masters of Reality has a song on its 1989 album of of the same name produced by Rick Rubin.  The song lyrics are about John Brown, "John Brown, bring him down, pull his body to the ground."
Bucknastay (talk) 03:46, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern Song 

message: A new, very excellent, scholarly history of the Battle Hymn of the Republic, the tune, and related texts has been published: The Battle Hymn of the Republic: A Biography of the Song That Marches On by John Stauffer and Benjamin Soskis.
Some of the book is available via Google Books. 
This should allow us to improve the article quite a lot and remove many of the speculations and spurious/poorly sourced ideas that have been included in the article in earlier revisions. The book includes excellent documentation pushing the 'Say Brothers' text and tune into the late 1700s/early 1800s and clearly ties the words (various versions) and tune to the camp meeting mileu.
* I made several revisions to incorporate some of this information.  The new and very authoritative source clears up much of the issue around the former disputes as to whether Bishop, Steffe, etc etc had any claim to authorship of either John Brown text or tune.  So the article could be re-written quite extensively to minimize the the prominence of those previous disputes and simply tell the story of how the John Brown Song text and music came to be and what its influence is.  These first edits are just a first crack at this and there is still quite a bit of editing to be done to incorporate this information into and article that reads well and is focused. Bhugh (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Scholarly Book/Excellent New Source 

message: I updated the article class from Start to C.  This is clearly well above Start class and probably with a bit of cleanup could be in Class B range. Bhugh (talk) 19:44, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Class Update

message: In case anybody thinks a mention or link is worth it, here are a couple of sources about the "John Brown's Body and Fender Shop" Far Side cartoon.
Orlando Sentinel article
reddit discussion
NoJoy (talk) 14:10, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Far Side cartoon 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect John Brown's Tractor. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  Hog Farm (talk) 05:00, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "John Brown's Tractor" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: The source for the following line "The American consul in Vladivostok, Russia, Richard T. Greener, reported in 1906 that Russian soldiers were singing the song" eventually leads back to this article https://nyshistoricnewspapers.org/lccn/sn83030384/1906-08-18/ed-1/seq-24/. Yet, I can't find any mention of Vladivostok, Greener, or even the song itself. Tried searching elsewhere but all literature refers back to this single document.
Does anyone have any clue if this story is even real?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by LilithJ777 (talk • contribs) 01:04, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can't find evidence for Russian soldiers ever singing John Brown's Body