Talk:Death and funeral of Pope John Paul II/Archive 1

message: Santo Subito!
:Do I think he could / probably would become a Saint? - Yes
:Is he already officially a Saint already? - No (How could he? Need a Pope to make someone a Saint, we haven't gotten a new Pope yet.)
:-- KTC 13:01, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Apart from which, officially the Church will not start the canonisation process within 5 years of the death of the person concerned (although JP II himself bent the rules in the case of Mother Theresa), and everything the candidate ever wrote has to be read to check that he's theologically orthodox, and after that, of course, is the need to have two officially accepted miracles. -- Arwel 13:43, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Pope can and did make a rule to allow the Pope to waive the rule if he so wish. As was the case with Mother Theresa, JPII indeed did waive the rule. So either way, a Pope is needed first. And of course, a Pope could just make someone a Saint without going through all that. He is the ultimate decision maker. Not that it's going to happen tho. -- KTC 01:31, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Is the Pope already a Saint?

message: Is someone just naming the heads of state that are currently in office?  There are no sources listed or confirmation that these people are attending that I have seen.
It should be noted that the world leaders listed will only come if the Vatican sends them an invitiation to come. Said list has been amended with a number of American heads of state expected to come.
*I've rephrased the comments at the head of the list of attendees to indicate the tentative nature of the list. IceKarma 11:06, 2005 Apr 5 (UTC)
It will be interesting if many/all of these people show up at the same time... GWB and Fidel Castro? Maybe they can trade numbers or something... --Chiacomo 13:53, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Heads of State

message: What is being disputed as factually inaccurate? I presume the list of attendees is disputed -- isn't the section on attendees titled "Prominent Likely Attendees"? I'm guessing this list will be revised as a more accurate list is available, perhaps as these individuals are actually invited and accept the invitation. As it stands, the list is useful as a reference of who will likely be there. --Chiacomo 04:52, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Factual Accuracy

message: Considering the extreme length of the list of dignitaries, it has been moved to a separate article entitled List of dignitaries at the funeral of Pope John Paul II.  This frees up space for the expected lengthening of the main article, allowing for faster download of text and photos on older computers.  --Gerald Farinas 15:17, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: List of dignitaries

message: Cardinal Martinez Somalo is referred to as "Cardinal Somalo" almost throughout;his family name proper is "Martinez",Somalo is the matronymic added in Spanish practice.--Louis E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 14:17, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed that for you. Thanks for the heads up! --Gerald Farinas 14:54, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Nomenclature for Martinez Somalo

message: Perhaps the phrase, "infamous Air Force One" would be better stated "easily recognizable" or even "famous". Is Air Force One really "infamous"? --68.213.57.224 16:13, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry.  Problem fixed. --Gerald Farinas 16:31, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Terrorism

message: ===Death Certificate===
It appears that the death certificate referenced (and linked) to in the article was not issued by Cardinal Martínez Somalo but rather Dr. Renato Buzzonetti. I'm guessing, based on what I've read, that there are probably two death certificates -- one issued by the public health authority and one issued by the church. I'm not sure, of course. Anyone have any clues on this? Perhaps the cardinal only officially promulgated the death certificate (in which case there would be only one). --Chiacomo 19:03, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dr. Renato Buzzonetti works for the camerlengo.  The camerlengo ceremonially issues or authorizes the death certificate as the governing authority of the sancte sede, as is tradition, but signed by the head physician of the Vatican City State.  Think of it as the same way an attorney general's or secretary of state's name/signature as the authorizing agent is listed on a state i.d. or driver's license issued in the United States.  Or the way the head of the state department of health's signature is present on a birth certificate, but signed by a physician that actually checked the baby's health.  --Gerald Farinas 19:22, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent! I knew there was an answer... I'm generally very impressed with how well this whole article has come together. So much information, very well organized, etc... I've never watched an article develop this closely. I can only hope all articles evolve as smoothly as this one has. --Chiacomo 19:28, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Refinements

message: It appears that the death certificate referenced (and linked) to in the article was not issued by Cardinal Martínez Somalo but rather Dr. Renato Buzzonetti. I'm guessing, based on what I've read, that there are probably two death certificates -- one issued by the public health authority and one issued by the church. I'm not sure, of course. Anyone have any clues on this? Perhaps the cardinal only officially promulgated the death certificate (in which case there would be only one). --Chiacomo 19:03, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dr. Renato Buzzonetti works for the camerlengo.  The camerlengo ceremonially issues or authorizes the death certificate as the governing authority of the sancte sede, as is tradition, but signed by the head physician of the Vatican City State.  Think of it as the same way an attorney general's or secretary of state's name/signature as the authorizing agent is listed on a state i.d. or driver's license issued in the United States.  Or the way the head of the state department of health's signature is present on a birth certificate, but signed by a physician that actually checked the baby's health.  --Gerald Farinas 19:22, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent! I knew there was an answer... I'm generally very impressed with how well this whole article has come together. So much information, very well organized, etc... I've never watched an article develop this closely. I can only hope all articles evolve as smoothly as this one has. --Chiacomo 19:28, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Death Certificate

message: Does someone know what the white silk veil placed over John Pauls face stands for? 85.124.45.91 16:10, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: He is unembalmed - it is likely to do with his biological decay. --Oldak Quill 23:51, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not precisely true to say he is unembalmed.  None of his organs were removed.  I'm not sure if embalming fluid was administered.  At very least, his skin was treated for the viewing.  A body just can't lie in the open for several says without some treatment.  The white silk veil is a traditional symbolic gesture that shows that from now on JPII will only be seeing the face of god, from what I understand. I looked for a source on this but couldn't find it yet.  I may have heard it on the telecast from one of the Catholic experts.  Not sure, though.  Gurp13 17:45, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  white silk veil 

message: :"The funeral of Pope John Paul II will be the first since the Church of England's break from Rome in the 16th century at which the sitting Archbishop of Canterbury, who is leader of the Church of England and the Anglican Communion, will be present."
I thought the monarch of the United Kingdom was the leader of the Church of England? --Oldak Quill 23:50, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: *The Archbishop of Canterbury is the Primate of the Church of England while the Queen is constitutionally titled Supreme Governor of the Church of England. The Queen, I suppose, is by title the leader of the church, the Archbishop is actually in charge. Reference the above linked article on the Supreme Governor for more information on the relationship. As a note: I understand the CoE doesn't consider itself Protestant -- rather, they contend they are Catholics that don't recognize the supremacy of Rome. --Chiacomo 02:53, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  CofE 

message: While on the whole a quite well written article, i must take issue with the viewership figures given for the funeral. i strongly doubt that every person on the planet (bar a few million perhaps) watched this on tv. while the potential viewership may be 6 billion people, it seems highly implausible to suggest 6 billion people actually watching it. for example, if only half of the chinese and indian populations watched it (a VERY generous figure in my opinion), there is a billion people ruled out right there. a leap too far in my book
:Correct. Associated Press estimated over 2 billion people watched. --Gerald Farinas 15:05, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Television Coverage 

message: Does the entire text belong in this article (which is already quite long)? I propose that it be moved to Wikisource. --Dhartung | Talk 20:35, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Raul654, whom I asked for advice, is skeptical. Vatican City is a signatory to the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, which means copyright is automatic and must be explicitly divested for reuse (excepting fair use and the like, of course). I've dug around the Internet, but I can't find any definitive statement of the copyright status of Vatican publications. Some areas of the Vatican website, such as the Vatican Library pages, have "All rights reserved" messages, but that's all. --Slowking Man 04:03, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
I agree. If/when the copyright issue is figured out, the homily ought to go to Wikisource. It's very long - a link would be better. --User:Jenmoa 05:06, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homily 

message: The article mentions that the Nicene Creed was recited rather than the Apostle's Creed.  I don't know if this is worldwide but in the US Catholic church the Nicene Creed is the standard creed recited at each Mass.  The Apostles Creed is used on special occasions, particularly Masses with a large percentage of children in attendence, and when beginning the Rosary.
:Maybe it has to do with the Pope being the succesor of the Apostles? (Alphaboi867 03:19, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which Creed 

message: I've amended "An American deacon, Paul Moss,  began by singing, "The Gospel according to John."" - according to the RC Archbishop of Birmingham, UK, commentating on the BBC TV coverage, Moss is English, and he will be ordaining Paul Moss next July and he will be working in the Birmingham archdiocese. -- Arwel 01:15, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason I wrote American was that both CBS News and ABC News coverage said he was an American.  I guess they were mistaken?  --Gerald Farinas 04:43, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Deacon nationality

message: Why was this article moved to Funeral of Pope Karol Józef WojtyÅ‚a? I've reverted it for the following reasons:
*The polish "ł" character breaks in the title to "Å,"
*He was never Pope Karol Józef Wojtyła, he was Priest/Bishop/Archbishop/Cardinal Karol Józef Wojtyła but upon becomming Pope he was Pope John Paul II
*Wikipedia naming conventions are that the most common name should be used.
*There was apparently no discussion of the move. Thryduulf 14:49, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Article move

message: I don't believe this sentence is correct (referring to Pope John Paul II being referred to as the Great):
:While the appellation [of "the Great"] was omitted from the spoken homily, under Vatican rules, what members of the College of Cardinals write during the interregnum is deemed official.
I am unaware of any Vatican rules giving individual members of the college such authority.  I am aware, under Universi Dominici Gregis, that during the interregnum only the sacred college as a college has such authority, and even then they are restricted, both in Universi and in canon 335 of the 1983 code, to no innovation sede vacante.  Thus, I will remove the sentence until a source can be provided. Pmadrid 00:23, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Supposed official nature of "the Great" 

message: Pall bears are chosen (or selected if you prefer), but aren't consecrated.  In Catholicism, only objects (altars for example) or people are consecrated (consecrated life).  Both suggest a PERMANENT reality, not a temporary one.  DaveTroy 12:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  pall bearers 

message: This article did not go through the current GAN nomination process. Looking at the article as is, it fails on criteria 2b of the GA quality standards. Although references are provided, the citation of sources is essential for verifiability. Most Good Articles use inline citations. I would recommend that this be fixed, to reexamine the article against the GA quality standards, and to submit the article through the nomination process. --RelHistBuff 10:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Delisted GA

message: It might have been "thought [by some] that billions watched the funeral", but I was in Australia at the time, and the viewing figures were a lot less than expected. Generally there was an air of media-hype. When the Pope died they were talking about the world's "one billion Catholics". Within two weeks that had become "1.4 billion practicing Catholics". Bill Tegner 07:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was in Canada at the time and I seem to remember the funeral was on every other channel, including CNN. There is not a shadow of a doubt that much more than 1.4 million people watched it. 66.130.156.84 05:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Numbers Watching Funeral 

message: :Pope John Paul's funeral brought together the single largest gathering of heads of state in history, surpassing the funeral of Winston Churchill.
Per Talk:Honours of Winston Churchill#Please check this citation Majoreditor pointed out that there is no confirmation to that statement. Did you just copy from there, or might you give your own sources? FloK 11:56, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Funeral of Winston Churchill 

message: I think that picture blaring right at the top of the article is offensive and unecessary!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.49.76.211 (talk) 05:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  corpse 

message: The page Death and funeral of Pope John Paul II is currently redirecting to this page, but I propose of moving this page into Death and funeral of Pope John Paul II. Both topics are similar in nature (it deals with Death), and besides, it can enable editors to shorten the article John Paul II and move it here, as it is considered too long. There is article with similar title: Death and funeral of Richard Nixon. w.tanoto-soegiri (talk) 20:44, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  move the page to [[Death and funeral of Pope John Paul II]] 

message: "The body of Pope John Paul II was exhumed first in the Papal Residence and venerated by the Clergy before a procession, after which it was placed in St. Peter's Basilica; The Swiss Guard remained always beside the body while it was exhumed. "
Exhumed,  in english,  means dug up from the grave.   That meaning seems to make no sense here.Eregli bob (talk) 03:06, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  exhumed -  makes no sense 

message: The text states that 2 billion viewers watched the funeral of Pope John Paul II on TV. That's like in many cases of big events - the numbers of viewers are grossly exaggerated. I suppose that a very considerabloe number of Roman Catholics may have watched but the interest among the other Christian denominations and among other religions was very likely not as big. In addition, the funeral took place at 10:OO CET, that's 4:00 a.m. Eastern Time or 1:00 a.m. for Pacific Time when people could be expected mostly to be asleep, and for Europe it was during work hours when many people did not have time to watch. I think that "2 billion viewers" are unrealistic and exaggerated. Anyway, no source for this figure is given. --Maxl (talk) 21:56, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  2 billion viewers? 

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