Talk:Mark Bailey (rugby union)

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150924110810/http://www.stpaulsschool.org.uk/resource.aspx?id=169901 to http://www.stpaulsschool.org.uk/resource.aspx?id=169901
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: : Because the nom below used a sockpuppet to support this request, any editor in good standing can open a new move request at any time. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 23:01, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Moved. Consensus has been reached: 3 Support plus nominator's implicit Support, two Weak oppose. (non-admin closure) Johnnie Bob (talk) 20:28, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

text: Mark Bailey (rugby union) →  – As the page clearly attests, this person played rugby, yes, at a highly competitive level, whilst a student at Cambridge University, between 1983 and 1990. This was an extracurricular activity not a main profession. Bailey was trained as a medieval historian, obtaining his PhD at Cambridge in 1987, at the same time as his competitive playing. Since then he has worked as a historian, first at Cambridge, now at the University of East Anglia. Ie he played rugby (yes, at a notable level!) competitively for 7 years and has worked as an academic for 40 years, including serving as master of a top rated school in London, Saint Paul’s. The page already includes the relevant links for his current and older affiliations. You can confirm the dates of his competitive rugby playing here http://en.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/player/9657.html. The introduction gives links to his current academic endeavors, including being invited to lecture in probably the most famous and respected history lecture series at Oxford University, the Ford Lectures! His current book is coming out as part of that series, which has produced some of the most influential books in English history. He is competing at the top of academia and Wikipedia identifies him by his athletic endeavors of a few years 30 years ago? This is actually damaging to his current professional reputation (this is not him writing, otherwise the discussion of rugby would be more knowledgeable. Kiwisleep (talk) 19:06, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

text: *I sympathise, but also disagree with the fact that all mentions of playing international rugby had been removed from the lead, and just shoved in a general section with early life. The fact is, he's a notable former rugby player as well as a current historian, and the article, both in name and content layout, should reflect both, rather than biasing towards his current career. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:51, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

text: Note that we don't do this. We only use one disambiguator. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:31, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: And this will only get closed when there's a consensus, which there isn't right now. Also, WP:NODEADLINE applies. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:37, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 13 July 2021 

message: The version at  shows a clear attempt to whitewash his rugby career. He is a former international player, which is worthy of content in the lead, and also in a separate "Sports career" section. It isn't just something to throw away in an early life section for his personal life. Yes he's a hostorian now, but he's also an international rugby player, so editors should stop belittling that contribution. Joseph2302 (talk) 22:37, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rugby player too 

message: I agree that 'rugby player' is probably not the best description for Mark Bailey. A comparison might be someone like Owen Chadwick who was Master of Selwyn College, Cambridge, and who played Rugby for Cambridge University and the British Lions: he is primarily described as a theologian and historian rather than as a Rugby player.
But surely Bailey's main profession has been as a schoolmaster. Yes he's an historian but he's hardly Thucydides. His Ph.D. was about commercial rabbiting in Medieval East Anglia. I would think that the profile and prestige attached to being a former Headmaster of Leeds Grammar School and St Paul's School probably opens the door to a range of opportunities in terms of Lectureships and Professorships that might be otherwise be more difficult to attain.
Would the word 'academic' cover his scholastic profession and his work as a historian? Then his article could lead with the Statement that 'Mark Bailey is an educator, historian and a former England Rugby Union international'. Just a suggestion.
Incidentally I remember watching Bailey play for Bedford a few times in the early 1980s and it's suddenly occurred to me that that was 40 years ago. It makes me feel very old.
Ndstead (talk) 07:30, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schoolmaster