Talk:Square academic cap

message: What about the Chinese mortarboard-style cap worn by emperors (see Huang Di or Qin Shi Huang)? --Dpr 04:08, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chinese mortarboard-style cap worn by emperors 

message: I just made a new page called Mortar Board (honor society). I think there should be a disambiguation page, but I do not know how to make one yet.
:~
Mortarboard is a solecism. This is an academic cap, as in cap and gown. Charles Matthews 17:39, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How long do the majority of speakers have to use a word before it becomes legitimate? We borrowed the mortier from French magistrates what—300 years ago? And how quickly did it become "mortarboard"? 20 years later maybe? --Tysto (talk) 03:45, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  disambiguation? 

message: We have two claims I am not sure are compatible:
: The term "mortarboard" derives "from the French mortier, a type of toque";
:"Its colloquial name derives from its resemblance to the board upon which mortar is placed by a bricklayer."
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mortar has mortier in the etymology, so it's just possible that both are right, but I am unsure. Does anyone know? —Vivacissamamente 05:08, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The hat and the word came over together. Here is the chronology—more or less. Sometime in the late Middle Ages, French magistrates added a board on top of their skull caps. Other Frenchmen noticed the resemblance to a bricklayer's mortarboard and called it a "mortier," the French word for the board a bricklayer carries mortar on. Later, English scholars adopted the hat and the word "mortier" to describe it and soon began calling it a "mortarboard," the English translation of "mortier." Much later, very stuffy university types began calling it a "square academic cap" because "mortarboard" didn't seem dignified. Of course, they could have just adopted a different cap, since it looks positively ridiculous compared even to other Medieval caps, but the Royal Societies of arts and science have a centuries-old bet going with the British Law Society about who will change their ridiculous headgear first  and it looks like a stalemate. --Tysto (talk) 04:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: Details regarding the tassel ought to be mentioned here; where they came from, symbolism, and traditions (such as moving the tassel from one side to the other upon receiving one's diploma). ProhibitOnions 23:11, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there a general rule on which side the tassel is to be worn? --212.144.136.86 11:36, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I wrote the section on tassels based on minimal research.  It has been changed. -Beard0 23:22, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tassel traditions?

message: "It is also often termed a square, trencher, or corner-cap in the UK and Australia..."
Hmm. In Australia, possibly. However, I'm English and middle-aged (therefore not too young to have come across archaic idiom), and I've never, ever heard any of these alternatives to 'mortarboard' before. Please could someone add a citation for this odd assertion? Blitterbug (talk) 00:33, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I've Lived in Britain all my life and I've only ever heard it refered to as a mortarboard or cap (as in cap and gown).--81.132.169.212 (talk) 08:45, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

text: Aussie here and never heard these terms (Melbourne) --121.219.58.245 (talk) 07:47, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure I'd stretch to "often", but those terms certainly have been (and sometimes still are) used at various times. I'll add some references to the article. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 07:14, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Square, Trencher, Corner-cap??? 

message: The usual black mortarboard cap, tassel, and gown are part of the high schol grad ceremony in Canada, too, a fact that should be included. You can look at any pix in Canadian high school yearbooks and newspapers. I should know since I'm Canadian. The Stacy DeSousa picture is more obvious proof.--76.69.192.232 (talk) 18:18, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  High School in Canada 

message: Most odd dress-items have some earlier 'function' (think: lapels, tricornes).  These caps are always worn with hoods, even if the hoods are not nowadays raised.  So might a mortier originally have been a (hidden) framework to allow a French magistrate to look around, even though his hood was up to prevent draughts?  The hood might slip off, with too much shaking of the head - how about a cord (or ribbons) on top to secure the cap to the hood?  Pure speculation, and thus unworthy of this forum. 81.157.12.38 (talk) 15:08, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Function? 

message: There should be a section on the color of tassels worn by faculty at the graduation ceremony.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.86.102.172 (talk) 04:26, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Faculty Tassels 

message: Thanks to all the patient editors for fixing my over-enthusiastic vandalism repairs. Original, vandalised version was here, fixed in this edit, but I hadn't noticed.
--Old Moonraker (talk) 05:32, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patent 

message: Is any citation at the end of the section really needed? The tradition of self-made caps is spread among academics and well-known. There is, however, no "do it yourself"-manual or any to refer to. Many groups post photos of caps on their webpages, but citing (all of) them - I believe - would not benefit the article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.91.163.157 (talk) 14:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: A citation would be preferable, I think, but just one decent reference from an appropriate source should do. In addition to backing up the statement, it would be useful for someone wanting to find out more. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 17:16, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

text: OK, I'll try to find something  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.91.163.157 (talk) 14:06, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personalized doctoral cap 

message: Currently there is one paragraph stating some yanks patented the mortar board in the fifties. What they actually patented was a method of manufacture not the design. This section currently gives the impression that the square academic cap dates back only half century. This clearly ignores its origins from the Toque? The current design represents the flattened medieval toque, and one that is similar to those still worn by the judges in France and Germany and other European countries. In that respects, it is a flattened chef's hat, made stiff with a board inside it!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.4.172 (talk) 18:19, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This was removed by User:Gimmetoo, because he/she couldn't provide references for his/her own version of the origin of the item. Looks like WP:POINT, to me, but by that time I was too warn down to argue. More here and more, much more, at #Madrassas?, above.--Old Moonraker (talk) 07:37, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Have things quietened down enough to restore User:Gimmetoo's deletion? I'm giving it a try. --Old Moonraker (talk) 08:20, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Much is quoted verbatim from https://www.graduationgowns.co.uk/collections/caps-and-mortarboards, raising an NPOV issue.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.213.9.109 (talk) 02:52, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins - huh? 

message: It is interesting that the academic cap is a square. If we take the side to be of  unit length, then the diagonal is irrational, i.e. , to the dismay of the Pythagoreans. I like to think of the squareness of the cap as suggesting that rational thinking may lead to the discovery that not everything is rational, or that rational thinking is not always complete:
* Not all points of the continuum are rational (most points of the continuum are irrational) (the rationals numbers are incomplete);
* Not all real numbers are definable (most real numbers are undefinable); 
* Not all real numbers are computable (most real numbers are uncomputable); 
* Not all truths in number theory are provable (most truths in number theory are undecidable) (incompleteness of the axioms and inference rules of number theory); 
* ...
: — TentaclesTalk or ✉ mailto:Tentacles 00:26, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diagonal of square academic cap of side 1 is irrational 

message: The story behind no caps at Newcastle, according to the university itself, is due to celebrating graduates chucking their caps into the Tyne when it became an independent uni in 1963 https://www.ncl.ac.uk/congregations/before/gownhire/ I've never heard it down to the admission of women to the uni, indeed women were admitted way before 1963 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Durham_University#Women_students
Thus, I believe Newcastle should be removed from that small group listed. 82.33.170.54 (talk) 14:42, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  No mortarboards at Newcastle University 

message: In Ireland, when I was at my graduation, they didn't give me one telling me only women wear them if they want. Why is this, please someone tell me and is it just in Ireland? Ireland, having abandoned its culture long ago, normally slavishly copies everything in England, so is this the same in England/the UK? I've looked online and found no explanation and only some forum posts from Irish people.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.171.46.72 (talk) 12:40, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect they've got too much common sense, with the additional element of the Church blocking anything that even touches on their privileges! It's also likely that the early Republic would have abjured anything English at the time this appeared.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.213.9.109 (talk) 03:01, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why don't men wear them in Ireland? 

message: Given my peers in the University of London have formed a study group https://www.burgon.org.uk/about-us/history-of-the-burgon-society/ and that the individuals behind change are influential in it, might it not be too much to suggest some liaison with them might be useful?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.213.9.109 (talk) 03:17, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Burgon Society 

message: Given the UK military were extremely influential in academia 1914-1968, it might be worth mentioning a standard practice, that Officers remove headgear, weapons, belts and similar harness on entering the Mess, with the sole exception of the Duty Officer, who can be identified by his full uniform: he's ready instantly. This may be a glorious red herring, but it sheds a light on the indoors-outdoors reference. Female officers also respect this need, so an Other Ranks necessarily incurring into the Mess can rapidly extract the right guy to handle any crisis, however, before the days of egalitarianism, the ladies were free to do as they would, on such occasions as they were invited in (and the Colonel's and Adjutant's were in any case unofficially part of the welfare system, so were part of the family).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.213.9.109 (talk) 03:29, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Military practice 

message: Two academic institutions have uniforms dating from Tudor times or earlier, Christ's Hospital School and Cambridge University. Neither incorporate the mortar board. I cite these as they predate speculative freemasonry, as well as the US. The argument that it may have roots in American speculative masonry's possible, given the presence of the other tools, trowel, square and level, in their rituals, but contradicted by the RC Patent, unless it was an attempt at interdiction of the symbolism.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.213.9.109 (talk) 04:32, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antiquity refutes it 

message: The article lacks explanation why the mortarboard appeared in academic environments in the first place. I speculate that it was a mediaeval borrowing from the Catholic clergy and related to academics all being clerics. Theology being a necessary precursory step for graduation. BUT I do not know if this religious-scholarly link is right. Also this would go back how far? To which universities or disciplines? Or even degree? Particular religious tradition - catholic or protestant?
This would also explain the wearing or not in doors as related to practices in religion - Christianity / churches. As there are university ordinances on this matter there should be sources. I think it should be linked with graduation caps as found in Scandinavia and also places that have no dress e.g. Austria - as it is a republic all references to court dress were removed. Ireland - is this due to some religious reason?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.31.26 (talk) 05:12, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  clerics?