Talk:History of Zionism

message: For the time being I redirected this page to Zionism. It was intended from the start that the Zionism article should get a summary of the history of Zionism. However this has not yet happened though and the Zionism article, including the history part, has developed further. Originally this article was a copy of the Zionism article.  This article has only had some spelling corrections  and addition to some categories. I added the categories to the Zionism article. I propose that after somebody has written a summary of the history of Zionism in the Zionism article, this article is revived with the relevant parts from the Zionism article. --JaapBoBo (talk) 21:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Redirect to Zionism

message: Since the Zionism article developed further I copied the relevant content from that article here. --JaapBoBo (talk) 23:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Copied from 'Zionism'

message: I removed this 'suggestive' text, which in my view should not be in the article:
:In December 1929 the Mufti was interviewed by a British commission investigating the source of the riots. Throughout the interview he held a copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.(ref)Palestine Commission on the Disturbances of August 1929, Minutes of Evidence Volume II page 527, paragraph 13,107.  The Mufti also compared himself to Jesus: see page 539.(/ref)
It suggests that the mufti was anti-semitic, although this is not warrented by the statement in itself. Therefore it is original research (see WP:OR). It is also not NPOV. I trust that an editor who wants to reinstate it will also put the text below in the article. 
:Weizmann had called Palestinian Arabs "treacherous", "arrogant", "uneducated", and "greedy" and had complained to the British that the system in Palestine did "not take into account the fact that there is a fundamental qualitative difference between Jew and Arab".(ref)'The Letters and Papers of Chaim Wizmann', Weisgal M.W. (ed.), Israel University Press, 1977, pp. 197-206.(/ref) --JaapBoBo (talk) 23:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: w00t for propaganda.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.220.77 (talk) 23:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I don't think the two aspects are comparable. The Protocols formed a key part in the justificaiton of the Nazi Genocide and the Mufti played a role in that genocide.  He held the book at a publicly recorded meeting and is also credited with producing the first Arabic translation. In comparison Weizmann's comments are private remarks reflecting frustration with the Palestinian Arabs and were not directed against Arabs as a whole. Even if you find them offensive, they are quite different qualititively from the Protocols. "to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented" Although the source is hard to come by (you can find it in the British Library and it maybe elsewehre) it is an official publicaiton by the British Government and a reliable source.  The stated facts do not contradict existing knowledge of the Mufti and there is no reason to doubt their veracity. If you look here you can see that the current Mufti is also familar with the protocols.
Telaviv1 (talk) 15:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Protocols

message: It seems the above has been overlooked. --Ludvikus (talk) 20:02, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Revisionist Zionism]]

message: I'm sure the fact that the first woman in the Polish Parliament was a Zionist belongs here somewhere.  As does the whole topic of faminism and Zionism. I am not certain that I put it in the correct place.Elan26 (talk) 11:34, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Women could vote in elections to Jewish local councils in "Palestine" before they had the vote in Britain.  there was a parliamentary question about it. If you like I could find you the reference. I think a seciton on Feminism and Zionism sounds interesting but I think you will need to write it. Telaviv1 (talk) 12:05, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Zionism and Feminism

message: "In 1917 the Russian revolution gave Jews equal rights as individuals but the Bolsheviks, partially inspired by Karl Marx's antisemitism, were particularly intolerant of Judaism and sent thousands of Zionists to the Gulag"
This comment does not adhere to Wikipedias principles of neutral point of view and verifiability.  The article does not provide references to evidence that proves that Karl Marx was anti-semitic nor does it provide "all significant views that have been published by reliable sources" concerning Zionism and anti-semitism in Russia.  
For example, the Jewish Bund who were very important in the shaping of Jewish opposition to anti-semitism in Russia during this period are not mentioned.  Nor is there any information about the anti-semitic pogroms carried out by the White Army who the Bolsheviks fought against.  
Leading members of the Bolshevik Party were Jewish and it is important that any accusation of anti-semitism against them is backed up with evidence. In order to preserve a neutral point of view the reasons why many Russian Jews did not support Zionism and became socialists should be represented in this article if accusations of anti-semitism and intolerance of Judaism are being made against Marx and the Bolsheviks in a Wikipedia article about the history of Zionism.
Spectralis (talk) 04:58, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zionism and Russia 

message: I can't see a mention of Yehoshua Hankin in the article. Any thoughts/suggestions on where it would be best to add a mention about him? JaakobouChalk Talk 13:03, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hankin 

message: I checked your points and concluded that while a lot fo sources say he held am SS rank the ranks given vary and the sources do not seem consistent.  The US Holocaust Museum does not give him a rank and their account sounds reliable and detailed. As you can see I have noted the existence of the claims and referred people to the Holocaust Museum site.  
Please note that there is no intention to mislead.  He was (like Zionism for others) a bogey figure and people easily believe bad things when it suits their prejudices.  
Your edits also suggested the Western Wall was a "historic moslem site".  If you believe this then please provide reliable sources pre-dating the 20th century as Jewish sources say the Mufti invented the claim to try and rid them of the wall, which was/is their sole property on the temple mount.   The Jews were able to provide photos from the Ottoman period of them worshipping at the wall.
Telaviv1 (talk) 16:34, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Mufti 

message: The article claims:
:Aliyah (immigration to Israel) has always been considered to be a praiseworthy act for Jews according to Jewish law, and is included as a commandment in most versions of the 613 commandments which Jews are supposed to strive to fulfill.
Maybe I am missing it, but I cannot find such a mitzvah listed in our own list or in several other lists   . So on balance I don't believe it; am I wrong? 00:48, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 613 mitzvot 

message: This article is only about Zionism and issues closely related to Zionism. Rjensen (talk) 00:09, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Unconnected stuff

message: "There is also evidence that he was active in promoting the Nazi extermination program.[Lewis (1995), 351.]" -- the source is not identified.  What is it and what does it actually say?  These words are just useless insinuation.  Zerotalk 10:18, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  missing source 

message: I read this article to confirm or refute a claim that my father made to me in the early 1960's about Zionism.  This claim was that the British, anticipating much of the ongoing conflict between Israel and the Arab world, proposed to the Zionists that the Jewish State be founded in Africa instead.  The Zionists, of course, rejected this idea out of hand.  Is there someone who knows about this?
As I was reading the article, I started to wonder how much of this history would be accepted by thoughtful Arab historians.  Having been brought up in a secular Jewish-American household, I have become aware of the considerable self-congratulation among the Jewish community.  There is also an ongoing strain of self-pity about persecution by those awful goyim.  I sense a little of both of these attitudes in the tone of this article, even though there seems to be some effort towards NPOV.
Since Wikipedia is fast becoming a true encyclopedia of record, I searched it for "Uganda Jewish State".  Sure enough, I found the article British Uganda Programme documenting the truth of my father's claim (He was even right that present-day Uganda was proposed, among other reasons because it was otherwise thinly populated.).  I have decided to make a note of this important, but little known fact in the article.
Oops!  Someone beat me to it!  Thanks. Eweinber (talk) 18:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: The change of central aim of Zionism that the article mentions was announced in Biltmore Program (May 1942); currently the article links it with the holocaust (timing wise), was the holocaust the highlight of Biltmore Program? (was the holocaust the conscious drive for the change, or was it maybe something else? what is the highlight of Biltmore confrence?) --Mayz (talk) 22:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  timing of change of central aim 

message: This was added:
: Arguably the first Zionist, or the first since the destruction of the Second Temple, was the Hispano-Jewish poet Judah ha-Levi, c. 1075 – 1141, the most important poet-philosopher of medieval Jewish history. He passionately called to his compatriots to "return to Jerusalem", doubting the future security of diaspora Jews. What makes his case unique for the period is his personal journey from Spain (al-Andalus) to Jerusalem, where he intended to live out the rest of his days. (He reached Egypt, and sailed from Alexandria to Palestine, but this is the last historical reference to him.) His Zionides, written during his pilgrimage, express the fervent belief that only in Jerusalem can Jews find safety, and that perfect Jewish life was only possible in the Land of Israel.
The source given was "Raymond P. Scheindlin, The Song of the Distant Dove: Judah Halevi's Pilgrimage, Oxford University Press, 2008".  However that book argues against this interpretation of HaLevi's poems.  Scheindlin mentions this interpretation and then seeks to refute it.  In Scheindlin's opinion (pp. 59ff.), HaLevi is imagining the time of the coming of the messiah, not calling on his contemporary fellow Jews to return to Zion.Zerotalk 08:16, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Judah HaLevi 

message: It seems exceptionally uncritical, even propagandistic, to me, a non-religious anti-imperialist.  I wonder how it would seem to an anti-Zionist Jew or a Palestinian Muslim or Xian.12:32, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV?  Doesn't look like it. 

message: A student editor has created a draft, Draft:Jewish Nationalism in Antiquity, which is closely related to this page. If anyone is interested, it would be helpful to have some feedback about that draft (please don't bite the student, by the way). Smmurphy(Talk) 17:11, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Draft:Jewish Nationalism in Antiquity 

message: This article could benefit from a more detailed analysis Herzl’s personal response to the Dreyfus Affair. The arc of his disillusionment regarding cultural perceptions of Judaism would function as a nice illustrative microcosm of the larger cultural climate of Jews reacting to anti-semitism in this manner. These sentiments espoused by Herzl and others directly influenced the start of the Zionist movement, and I believe this article could use some elucidation in this area.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomas744 (talk • contribs) 02:36, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expanding on Herzl's Role in the Foundation of Zionism 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Why does this article mention Beitar only once? seems a bit odd. Sm8900 (talk) 14:58, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  ODD PARAMETERS 

message: In the section Zionism and feminism, it begins by stating that "The Zionist movement never restricted female suffrage". 
Yet the Wikipedia page about the First Zionist Congress states "While [17] women participated in the First Zionist Congress, they did not have voting rights".  This was changed in the second congress. 
Ideally, someone more knowledgeable than me in the History of this movement could nuance the statement under Zionism and feminism, as factually it does not seem 100% accurate. 
-  Michaël Lessard (talk) 16:21, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The Zionist movement never restricted female suffrage" (Zionism and feminism) 

message: Would make this small change myself but I'm not extended-confirmed - in section 5.6 ("Rise of Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany: the Fifth Aliyah (1929–1939) and illegal immigration"), there's an italicized line that seems to be intended as a sub-section title ("Cooperation with Nazi Germany before the second world war"). Could someone with extended confirmation make this change? remainsuncertain (talk) 20:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section title needed in section 5.6