Talk:Northumbria

message: Can someone give me more details aboput this blue and white cross flag? I have only ever seen the yellow and red flag flying? It is flown quite widely, and is also used even more frequently as a car sticker. I have no recollection of ever seeing the cross flag.
Grinner 08:21, May 19, 2004 (UTC)
The Flags of the World website has an extensive discussion on the Northumberland flag. Several alternatives to the red-and-gold flag are discussed, but none of them seem to be in actual use. No mention is made of a blue-and-white cross flag, though.
--McMullen 17:12, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Flag

message: User:80.44.76.119 changed 
:Three major Northumbrian dialects are Geordie, Mackem and Pitmatic. 
To
:Three major Northumbrian dialects are Geordie, County Durham/Wearside (which is derogatorily refered to as Mackem by Geordies) and Northumbrian (ie from Northumberland)which again is given a derogatory name (Pitmatic) by Geordies.
I don't think that mackem and pitmatic are derogatory - they are widely used by people who speak with said accents. So I reverted this bit. Grinner 09:56, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)
:Mackem is the Sunderlanders' word and refers to the practice of shipping unfinished boats to Tyneside to be finished. "We mak 'em and they tak 'em" as the ship builders would have put it. It's not derogatory. I've not heard of 'pitmatic' but 'pityakker' (literally miner) is pretty derogative.GordyB 15:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dialect

message: I propose that we limit the scope of this article to the history of the kingdom and earldom of Northumbria. Later history (from 1100? on) should be covered in the History of Northumberland article. Also, the article on Northumbria in the Early Middle Ages should be folded into this article on Northumbria.
sounds sensible, whoever you are Johnbod 01:31, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For sure this should only be about the Kingdom and at a stretch the Earldom... what came to be known as Northumberland was essentially a small slice of this kingdom at its peak and when you consider that York was its capital, then Northumberland area wasn't actually the center of this thing. - Yorkshirian (talk) 18:33, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scope of this Article relative to history of Northumberland 

message: ...Due to the roots of Northumbrian dialects, it is often said that visitors from Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands often find it much easier to understand the English of Northumbria than the rest of the country. An example is the Geordie 'gan hyem' (to go home), which sounds identical to the Danish 'gan hjem', and means the same.
I live in Newcastle and I often hear this. Whilst the 'gan hyem' example is commonly used to support this assertion, I wondered if scandinavians do actually find Northumbrian english easier to understand, or whether this is just a piece of hearsay. I've just done a quick search on Google and I haven't found anything that would neccesarily seem to support this. It might help to have a source quoted for this section.    
Moa nalo 31 July 2006
"gå hjem" is Danish for "gan hjem" (and "gang hame" in Scots :} 82.41.4.66 21:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: }82.41.4.66 00:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Well maybe that is true with the rhythm and tone, but in my experineces when speaking to the students at Sunderland from Scandinavia, they struggled with the broad accent, if i wanted them to understand me i had to speak more RP and slow. Gazh 13:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Scandinavia

message: Yorkshirian recently added this new version of an old map to this article; it was removed by Deacon of Pndapetzim and re-added by Yorkshirian.  I'd like to replace it with this map instead, which doesn't use boundaries.    The changes were made to several articles, so to centralize discussion, please post at Talk:Mercia#Map if you have an opinion. Mike Christie (talk) 02:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Currently the article has neither of these maps. It really ought to have a map showing all of "Britain and Ireland"/"the Atlantic Archipelago"/"the Anglo-Celtic Isles" or "the British-Irish Isles" (take your pick) and then Northumbria's location. __meco (talk) 20:00, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map discussion 

message: I am originally from South Shields (Soo Shiels in Geordie) but live in Denmark.  There is no way I can say that it was easier for the Danes (nor Norwegians or Swedes) to understand my 'English'.  In fact, it was always easier for them to understand a southern English speaker for the simple reason Scandinavians learn English not Northumbrian/Geordie!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cærurfa (talk • contribs) 16:19, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Understanding the dialect

message: Where does the term "Northumbria" come from? Is there some link with the Roman Umbria regio? --Cantalamessa (talk) 11:19, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No relation, it comes from the River Humber and was coined by Bede to describe the northern Anglian kingdom, which was separated from the central one (Mercia) by the Humber. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 11:43, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

text: An earlier version of the name is North-humbria, which would be derived from the Humber like Angus said.  --Merovingian (T, C) 11:46, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of name 

message: The image :Image:Northumbeland coa.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --06:36, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Northumbeland coa.png

message: Can anyone tell why the infobox says 653 as an establishment date when the article says that Northumbria was formed in 607? Also, in the timeline article there is no mentioning of 653. If it is the establishment date of the kingdom, shouldn't it be there?  --小龙 (Timish) #   xiǎolóng de xìnxiāng  14:35, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  date 653  

message: Is there any great feeling for moving this article to Kingdom of Northumbria, its just been moved and reverted (by myself) as I did not see any discussion for a proposed move. Jim Sweeney (talk) 23:11, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a good idea as it's about more than the Kingdom of Northumbria. Dougweller (talk) 15:04, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kingdom of Northumbria 

message: It is not really true to say that the Scots version of English  was called Ynglis. In a time  before spelling was standardised the word 'English' was spelled at the least half a dozen different ways. Inglis and Ynglis were indeed used in Scotland, but then they were in England too, along with Anglish, Englisc etc etc. Modern Scottish nationalists like to promote the idea that 'Scots' is or was a seperate language from English and write about Inglis and Ynglis; it is however historic and linguistic nonesense. Scots (except when it meant Gaelic) has always just been English, but with its own regional accents and distinct local dialects, exactly like everywhere in England.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.5.235 (talk) 16:29, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ynglis? 

message: "Apart from standard English, Northumbria has a series of closely related but distinctive dialects, descended from the early Germanic languages of the Angles, of which 80% of its vocabulary is derived". 
Is this about modern Northern English? If so, is it meant to be a joke? 
Taken from the source, "Distinctively Geordie and Northumbrian words are more than 80 % Angle in origin, compared to standard English, where the figure is less than 30 %." this sentence is very problematic itself. If by "distinctive" the author means "not found in standard English", then the figure cannot be compared with the proportion of native English words in Standard English wordstock because they are utterly unrelated things. More ungrounded linguistic claims from the site: "Today the only part of England where the original Anglo-Saxon language has survived to any great extent is of course the North East." and " It is from the ancient Germanic and Scandinavian language of the Angles that the unique local dialects of Northumberland and Durham primarily owe their origins." For one thing, the use of the words "Germanic" and "Scandinavian" is very casual; for another, how does a language spoken 1000 years ago "survive"? (I mean, say, if Old English was still spoken somewhat in Northern England by a small group of folks or something, then yes, it "survived to an 'extent'"); yet another thing: how does a language that is not a creole "primarily" derive from another? It's either English or it is not, is it not the case? Anyway, I could be mistaken, but I believe citing this webpage is not appropriate. 
202.171.163.7 (talk) 17:37, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Languages 

message: There is a discussion on this above which refers to the Flags of the World website, but this website does not give any WP:RS. The short paragraph in the article cites a self-published site which states that the author disapproves of the Wikipedia link. I have not seen any reference to a flag in Rollason or Higham, or any other history of the period. So far as I discover see all mention of a flag is anachronistic and should be deleted. Can anyone cite a reliable source for a Northumbrian flag? Dudley Miles (talk) 22:06, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, unless someone comes up with something I don't think it ought to be used to decorate these medieval articles.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 02:12, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did Northumbria have a flag? 

message: Substituted at 18:04, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The infobox is a mess but I am unsure how to fix it. I think the excess width is because of the {{tl|nowrap]] being used around the entry for Lincolnshire. Can anyone resolve that? - Sitush (talk) 02:53, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: "His successor, Abbot Ceolfrith, continued to add to the library until it." Until it what? Burned down? Was closed by Tory spending cuts?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.144.205.38 (talk) 00:06, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incomplete sentence 

message: The 'languages' section reads: "In the time of Bede, there were four vernacular languages in Northumbria: those of the Britons, Scots, Picts, and Northumbrian, and Latin".
What Bede actually wrote  was:
"At the present time, there are five languages in Britain, just as the divine law is written in five books, all devoted to seeking out and setting forth one and the same kind of wisdom, namely the knowledge of sublime truth and of true sublimity. These are the English, British, Irish, Pictish, as well as the Latin languages".
'British' means what we would call 'Welsh'.
'Irish' means 'Gaelic'.
For some reason the current text mis-applies the words 'Northumbrian' and 'Scots' to mean what Bede called English. In his day 'the Scots' and 'the Picts' i.e. the inhabitants of the Highlands, spoke what he called 'Irish' and 'Pictish'.
The original sentence would better read: "In the time of Bede, there were four vernacular languages in Northumbria: English, Old British, Scots-Gaelic and Pictish, plus Latin".
Cassandra.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.145.161.226 (talk) 16:19, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Languages - incorrect quote 

message: I recently put the Northumbria flag at the bottom of the article to the infobox. Somebody said it was anachronistic, I agreed and put it back where it was. 
Now some people, as vaguely as possible, say don’t put it there and put it elsewhere. I disagree since the section in question already had the flag there in the first place and literally talks about it. These users clearly haven’t read the text properly where it is LEGACY, a word meaning influence since something has past, is appropriate. Chocolateediter (talk) 16:54, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this the only version? Is there a more 'chequered' version? what does SVG mean?Halbared (talk) 18:56, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Scalable Vector Graphics---Ehrenkater (talk) 19:00, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag 

message: The opening paragraph says 'medieval Anglian kingdom', and following paragraphs use 'Anglo-Saxon.' Are the statements in opposition?Halbared (talk) 18:59, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: They are not inconsistent: Anglo-Saxon includes Anglian.---Ehrenkater (talk) 19:02, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: How come the lede doesn't use anglo-saxon?Halbared (talk) 19:06, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

text: I think Anglo-Saxon is better. Higham in his history describes it as an Anglo-Saxon kingdom, although the also refers to an Anglian dynasty. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:43, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  medieval Anglian kingdom/Anglo-saxon 

message: using "British" to refer to Celtic Britons can be ambiguous. The word British is used in everyday language to just refer to Britain or the UK, not to refer to Celtic Britons. If neither "Celtic" nor "Celtic British" works for you since you have reverted those, what do you suggest to avoid confusion? Vpab15 (talk) 15:58, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I would think in everyday usage, that would be correct, and if one wanted to differentiate between the picts, gaels and Brits/welsh. But in context on a page that is dealing with anglo-saxons and the British/brits, where all other forms (I mean references) are dealing with the brits, it would be fine, like other pages dealing with this historic topic. This page isn't dealing with modern usage, so in context there is no need for an extra word.Halbared (talk) 18:01, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Nonsense - it is entirely usual to have these links, piped or unpiped, on articles on the A-S period. Please stop edit-warring on this. Johnbod (talk) 18:11, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I looked at a few other articles, it doesn't appear to be 'nonsense.'Halbared (talk) 18:19, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Examples? You are now past WP:3RR btw. Johnbod (talk) 18:29, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Two examples are from other anglo-saxon kingdoms; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wessex#Saxon_settlement and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Essex#Origin. When referencing the indigenous tribes, just 'briton/british' is used.Halbared (talk) 19:04, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not seeing this at all in Wessex; I suggest you look again.  The first relevant link is "Celtic British tribes", but I added another one later to be sure. Essex did need one, which I've added.  Johnbod (talk) 20:57, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: You just edited it to suit your purpose. The style in both those pages was to say, 'briton' or 'british.' Why ask for examples when you intend to edit them?Halbared (talk) 21:47, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: A useful way of finding things that need correcting. Johnbod (talk) 04:43, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: And then say you don't see it I need to read again, you should think about how you interact on here.Halbared (talk) 10:19, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

text: Thanks for the knowledgable input.Halbared (talk) 00:24, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

text: Museum curators also "object" to Celtic, a bit, but always use it when addressing a general readership, at least on the posters & at the start of the catalogue. We are writing for a general readership. Halbared, that's 3 editors, all with some experience in this area, who support what you keep reverting. Johnbod (talk) 04:43, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I see you have self-reverted (but not at Essex). Thanks. Johnbod (talk) 04:48, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ambiguity of "British" instead of "Celtic British" 

message: I created a flag that represents the description of Bede, the colour wasn’t specified just purple and gold. It is not burgundy and gold which was registered as a compromise. The flag represented the kingdom, with historic dyes the colours would not have been specific. Can it be on the article. Chocolateediter (talk) 21:21, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Bede only describes it as a banner of gold and purple, making no mention of stripes, (and therefore no number and order of them or their width ratio,) or the overall length/width proportions. If it was possible, in the period between the death of Oswald and a red/gold flag based on his banner being used by Northumberland, for the colour to change then many other elements of the design such as the stripes may possibly have been altered too. I would be hesitant about the inclusion of a flag without citations from reliable historical sources that gave a more detailed description of the banner/flag as it was in the mid-tenth century, particularly when previous discussions have questioned the reliability of certain websites for this and noted that many of the books on the subject make no reference to flags. EdwardUK (talk) 02:11, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag