Talk:Scottish Highlands

message: I note the article offers a definition of Scottish Highlands with respect to Scottish Lowlands, but ignores in its initial definition the existence of the Western Isles, Orkney and Shetland. Whether the Western Isles (where the Gaselic of Highlanders now best survives) should be excluded from the Highlands is somewhat debatable. Also the article ignores the more modern concept of Highlands and Islands which, in broad terms, brings together in one area the Highlands and the Far North (including Orkney and Shetland). Laurel Bush 09:33, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In my Philips Atlas, this area (north-west of the Great Glen) is called the North West Highlands, and the Highland region itself is shown as including the Inner Hebrides and towns such as Newtonmore and Aviemore east of the Great Glen. Shantavira 14:23, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Surely the area in question is a proper noun, and should be refered to with a capital H? Grinner 11:35, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just did a quick google search and almost all the first twenty results come back with 'Scottish Highlands', implying its use a proper noun.  None of them are capitalised like this article.  I think it's wrong, and it should be changed back as it was
Crosbiesmith 18:53, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

text: hmmm, that just complicates things if you ask me! I propose we return to capitals for now: a debate about potential merging can wait. I'll move it back tommorow unless someone objects. Grinner 10:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Couldn't move it, but I have made a requested move. Grinner 12:30, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

text: With the exceptions of Caithness, Orkney and Shetland, perhaps?--Mais oui! 14:18, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Highlands or highlands

message: Scottish highlands → Scottish Highlands – Highlands is a proper noun
===Voting===
:Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
*Support - as per what I said! Grinner 12:29, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Add any additional comments
If Highlands is not a proper noun then the existance/value of the entire article is questionable. Laurel Bush 16:59, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

text: How so? Tens of thousands of Wikipedia articles regard topics which are not proper nouns.--Mais oui! 19:00, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

text: You're right, but then people living in the islands call the largest island - "the mainland". This does not imply that we should be renaming Britain to Mainland, however. But this aside, I'd support Highlands (of Scotland) rather than "Scottish Highlands". --Lysytalk 09:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: :Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
*Support - as per what I said! Grinner 12:29, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Voting

message: :Add any additional comments
If Highlands is not a proper noun then the existance/value of the entire article is questionable. Laurel Bush 16:59, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How so? Tens of thousands of Wikipedia articles regard topics which are not proper nouns.--Mais oui! 19:00, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

text: You're right, but then people living in the islands call the largest island - "the mainland". This does not imply that we should be renaming Britain to Mainland, however. But this aside, I'd support Highlands (of Scotland) rather than "Scottish Highlands". --Lysytalk 09:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: Is first noted by John of Fordun in 1380. The presence of Anglo-Saxons in parts of the South centuries prior to this has no bearing on the fact that we have no evidence of an identifiable cultural split within the Scottish kingdom until this point. Also, the anglicization of the South and Lowlands is beyond doubt and, again, the presence of Angles in the Lothians prior to the founding of the Scottish kingdom has no bearing on the fact that their language and culture later displaced that of the Scots across the rest of the lowlands - hence its anglicization. Neither of these points is debated in my experience (prior to the edits to this article). I have certainly no memory of reading a single Scottish historian doubting the facts with regard to either.
An Siarach
The Anglo-Saxon Kingdom of Bernicia (later the northern part of the Kingdom of Northumbria) was established in what is now south-east Scotland in the 6th century. Historically I don't think that Anglic or 'English' culture ever displaced 'Scots' culture in most of the Lowlands. Rather it displaced Pictish/Brythonic culture and language. Ethnolgically and liguistically I'm afraid I rather doubt there ever was an historic 'Scots' culture in much , perhaps even most, of the Lowlands. Even the name 'Scot-land' is a misleading historical accident - more a late political artefact than objective terminolgy.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.25.161 (talk) 15:34, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Beginning of Highland-Lowland divide

message: Hello there, I came across this article when I was disambiguating links and ended up doing some cleanup on the Religion section. I've moved some ofthat to the Culture section as I felt that was more appropriate. I've also removed the following text:
:This is often not seen among Lowland Scots, where the Protestant population is often not as patriotic towards Scotland, indeed many Lowlanders often sympathise with the United Kingdom before Scotland. As for the Lowland Catholic population, they are often more concerned with Northern Irish/Irish national loyalty than with Scottish.
... which I felt didn't actually inform us about the Highlands and needed some sort of verification before I added it back. Feel free to amend/comment etc. Take care. Politepunk 19:02, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Im a bit dubious about this section. I was under the impression that, southern isles of the Outer Hebrides aside, presbyterian protestantism had spread to pretty much the entirity of Scotland. Are there still some Catholic enclaves in the mainland who maintained their catholicism from prior to the reformation? An Siarach
Not to be a pain, but the vast majority of ethnic Highlanders (pure Celtic by blood) remained Roman Catholic. Most left the Highlands after the Clearances for either North America-read Nova Scotia-or for Lowland cities in search of work. The Highlands themselves have a very limited population now.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.2.74.186 (talk) 22:15, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  moved ''some'' material from Religion section to Culture section 

message: Unlike, for instance, the article on Shetland, the highland one has virtually nothing about the history of the area - something to add, or write a new article about? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.189.136.126 (talk) 20:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History? 

message: The sentence about the police and fire looks as if it needs rewriting after being edited badly.  The section on Highland Park seems unnecessary, it includes a sentence about HIE which would be better having its own section with a couple of sentences as well linking to its own page.  Perhaps Highland Park can be added to the alternate meanings links at the top?   --jmb 09:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, probably could do with a look at. I have removed the Highland Park section since it has nothing to do with this article, and shouldn't be in a dablink either (since nobody will type in "Scottish Highlands" expecting to get to an article on "Highland Park"). Thanks/wangi 11:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Highland Council Area section

message: Why is the list of towns devoid of Grampian locations? Cuvette 14:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is the map at the right hand side being used as the definition of the boundary of the Highlands though it also includes the Western Isles and Orkney so perhaps more accurately could be defined at Highlands and Islands?  A number of towns/villages near Aberdeen seem to being added even though not shown as in the Highlands on the map - Aboyne, Banchory.  Also Stornoway when the page is headed Scottish Highlands, not Highlands & Islands.  --jmb 11:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Per the discussion above under "MAP?", we are not using the map to which you allude Jmb.  The Highlands are known to be bounded at the south at the NOrth Sea by the Highland Boundary Fault.  (As far as your comment regarding the name, I think you have a good point, but wouldnt it be better to keep this article as it is and split off another article entitled "HIghlands and Islands" ? Regards. Cuvette 14:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Why no Grampian towns?

message: "Culturally the area is quite different from the Scottish Lowlands." How so? Highland culture is so distinctive that after the Battle of Culloden, the British government took steps to eradicate that distinctiveness, and yet there isn't even a mention of this. At the very least, shouldn't there be a link back to the Scottish clan article? nmw 01:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Culture section seems rather sparse

message: No doubt the recent edits on this subject were made in good faith, but they are well wide of the mark. This region is, to quote one of the sources used (MSN Encarta) "South of the Great European Plain". 
See  for a map. Ben MacDuiTalk/Walk 08:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Ben. Maybe that map is newer or made by somebody with a different clasification system of what constitutes physiographic 'areas'? The master list I'm working on at Physiographic regions of the world is based on several handdrawn maps made by Erwin Raisz, A.K. Lobek, and Guy Harold-Smith. Unfortunately I'm on vacation the rest of the year and the maps are in my office, so I can't pull them out easily to see whose map I pulled the European 'areas' from. They were all done in the timeframe of around 1920'2 - 1960's. I found those refs I used yesterday in about 30 minutes of Google searching in an effort to at least have something. I used the Encarta ref merely to show the usage of the term Central European Uplands, since the first ref from Brigham Young used the term 'Hills', which obviously is an incorrect name. But, the Brigham Young site does list the Scottish Highlands and the Massif Central in the same physiographic 'area'. The Encarta reference does list the Massif Central as being in the Central European Uplands section as does the third reference as well. So if the BYU reference uses and obviously wrong name (more of just a generic name), but list several of the prominent provinces within the incorrectly named division, the other two references do use the correct division name (Central European Uplands) and list some of the same component provinces. Here's another ref that says "The central uplands and plateaus present distinctive landscapes of rounded summits, steep slopes, valleys, and depressions. Examples of such physiographic features can be found in the Southern Uplands of Scotland, the Massif Central of France, the Meseta Central of Spain, and the Bohemian Massif." I ran across one yesterday (though I can't find it now) that said the Central European Uplands formed a horseshoe around the Great European Plain. This is such a broad category though (physiography), that several of the various branches have their own terms and boundaries for what the various 'areas' are. It also appears that many parts of the world have now defined various sub-sections that the maps I have didn't classify. So work on defining (or even re-defining) some of the areas still continues. If the above explanations meet your approval, I'll let you revert back. I don't need to get in an edit war over something so generally defined even after at least 60 years or so of work and definitions. I'm merely trying to offer a comprehensive listing of the world's various physiographical 'areas' in one place, since such a listing doesn't exist in any one source yet that I've found. It takes around a minimum of one 'good' source per continent to eventually compile the complete list, and it very well could be the various sources I've run across aren't as good as others, but that's not my call to make. I'm hoping by offering this list, others that do have the in-depth knowledge of this subject will improve upon it, but at least in the meantime, there's something others can hopefully find useful. wbfergus  Talk 10:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Central European Uplands 

message: Is there any evidence that this "unofficial" has ever been used or seen anywhere?  Or can we all design our own "unofficial" flags and post them on the page as well?  --jmb (talk) 22:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If its not official or well known then it shouldn't be in the article. This article isn't a platform to legitimise someone's 'unoffical' flag.--Celtus (talk) 13:13, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Unofficial flag

message: From the article:
::Inverness is traditionally regarded as the Capital of the Highlands, although less so in the Highland parts of Aberdeenshire, Angus, Perthshire and Stirlingshire which look more to cities such as Aberdeen, Perth, Dundee and Stirling as their commercial centres. Under some of the wider definitions in use, Aberdeen could be considered the largest city in the Highlands, although it does not share the same recent gaelic cultural history typical of the Highlands proper.
Aberdeen, Perth, Dundee and Stirling, and their associated shires, are all outside the Highlands both geographically and culturally.  Is there any point whatsoever to those sentences? I would remove them, but am wondering what the consensus is. Lianachan (talk) 23:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not conflating anything.  Also, as a Highlander myself, I don't really consider those places to be in the Highlands either. Lianachan (talk) 10:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The County of Perth (i.e. Perthshire) still exists as a registration county.  --jmb (talk) 09:34, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say the page would be better without the long list of towns and villages, most of which are not really in the "Scottish Highlands" but perhaps in Highland Council area or even just like to think they are in the Highlands for tourism reasons.  --jmb (talk) 11:20, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aberdeen!? 

message: I have added a hamlet to the long list of towns and villages, but I have not altered the title of the section - yet.  There are many hamlets in the Highlands which are not included in this list.  If they are included here, will the list become unwieldy; but if we distinguish them it may simply lead to arguments if such and such a place is a village or a hamlet.  What are your thoughts? Ergateesuk (talk) 11:30, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:MOS is quite clear that lists should be avoided in articles and that ideally entries of this nature should be in prose form. In other words, the ideal solution would be to have a short section identifying the main towns and perhaps villages in specific areas, and otherwise explaining any other relevant issues and move the lists to a completely new article such as List of villages in the Highlands of Scotland or similar. The number of possible entries on this list could then be large, the main difficulty being to come up with a suitable definition or minimum size.Ben MacDuiTalk/Walk 14:52, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Ben for the MOS link.  The Highlands is one of the largest geographical areas in Europe, and this list is likely to grow very large.  There are many small villages and hamlets with the same name throughout Highland, so the list will serve a useful purpose.  I am not responsible for this list, and as a newcomer I have not begun a new article.  Perhaps I should learn to do so and attempt this one, but possibly whoever did the most work on it may wish to do it, and they are welcome too.  Ergateesuk (talk) 22:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid this is low on my list of priorities at present, but I do encourage you to be bold. Lists are sometimes rather dry affairs e.g. List of hospitals in Scotland but they can reach featured status e.g. List of Orkney islands. If you want any assistance with this, (or anything else) just let me know. Ben MacDui 10:07, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I see that the hamlet question has been addressed at List of places in Orkney which includes them in the same list as towns and villages.  I think this is correct but if the Orkney list is as long as it is, imagine how long the Highlands one will be!  Ergateesuk (talk) 06:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Towns, Villages and Hamlets

message: Why is Inverness under towns and villages when it is neither? Would settlements or the like not be more appropriate?(Hypertone (talk) 00:28, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Towns, villages 

message: I think that the Scotish Highlands culture should be much better described . I'm not a native british myself, so I can't do so, but I love my new home, and I think it is probably one of the most representative regions of UK.--Highlandist (talk) 19:05, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Culture ?

message: There is a brief introduction to this subject above, discussed in November 2006. The requested move is 
:Scottish Highlands --> Highlands of Scotland. 
As mentioned above, no-one in the Highlands would ordinarily refer to the "Scottish Highlands" - this is simply a useful form of "disambiguation" used by outsiders, tourist sites and indeed this organ. A related issue is that such is Wikipedia's prominence now it is in danger of skewing the usage in this direction. However, a quick look round my bookshelf indicates the presence of:
* Fraser Darling, F. & Boyd, J.M. (1969) Natural History in the Highlands and Islands.
* Hunter, James (2000) Last of the Free: A History of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland.
* Murray, W.H. (1977) The Companion Guide to the West Highlands of Scotland.
 
Furthermore Keay, J. & Keay, J. (1994) Collins Encyclopaedia of Scotland have seven entries that begin "Highland..." - and none that begin "Scottish Highlands...", for obvious reasons. 
Books using "Scottish Highlands" certainly exist e.g. The rough guide to Scottish Highlands & Islands. I had a look at an ngram - but this can't distinguish books using "Highland" without including those about the other Highland areas of the world. Highlands (of Scotland) would arguably be more accurate but I don't like brackets in page titles unless they can't be avoided. Ben MacDui 15:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not so sure. A quick search on Amazon throws up marginally (about 1,000) more titles for Scottish Highlands than for Highlands of Scotland so at best, I don't think there's much in it. Secondly, it may well be that the locals never call it that but we've had similar discussions (for example the Ganges vs Ganga debate) where in the end, the conclusion was that the overriding principle must follow common English usage, even if that goes against local English usage. I don't see anything wrong with the current name, it's neither offensive, nor incorrect, nor rare/unattested. A case of leave well alone perhaps? Akerbeltz (talk) 18:59, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but can you search for  titles including "Highlands/Highland" that are about Scotland only? 2 of the 3 quoted above would not appear in a search for "Highlands of Scotland". Ben MacDui 08:32, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, just put them in quotation marks, "Highlands of Scotland" and/or "Scottish Highlands" will only yield results that contain those, not, for example Scottish Cooking in the Highlands of Ethiopia or somesuch. Akerbeltz (talk) 10:32, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: But this would presumably exclude, for example, Natural History in the Highlands and Islands and even Scotland's Highlands of which there are doubtless many. Ben MacDui 13:01, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move (2) 

message: Speakers of Old English (Angles in fact) settled in south eastern Scotland in the 7th century, at which time Celtic Brythonic was spoken in the south of Scotland to a little way north of the Firth of Forth and the Firth of Clyde, and Pictish was spoken further north. At the same time Gaelic speakers began to spread from the West Coast of Scotland north of the Clyde into the east. Over the next five hundred years with the expansion of the kingdom of the Scots the Gaelic language slowly moved eastwards and southwards across the lowlands. When Northumbrian lands (the Angles' English-speaking kingdom) were incorporated into Scotland in the 11th century Gaelic became the prestige language there and had some influence, but the south east remained largely English speaking. The idea that Gaelic is the traditional language of all Scotland is just nationalistic 'Celtomania' political propaganda. It was the early language of the Scots - but the Scots back were then just one tribe with a small kingdom 'Scotland Proper' in the west of their later 'empire' which incorporated all the other majority non-Gaelic kingdoms in the north of Britain.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.31.181 (talk) 17:46, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language Never Mainly Gaelic 

message: Should not the sentence "Between the 15th century and the 20th century, the area was different from the most of the Lowlands in terms of language" rather read "Until the 20th century, the area was different from the most of the Lowlands in terms of language." Otherwise it implies that before the 15th century the language was the same - and it most certainly wasn't. Cassandra  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.96.98 (talk) 09:21, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language - Suggested correction 

message: Substituted at 05:37, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: Why is population not mentioned in the infobox? Should it be? Is it because the Highlands aren't a proper administrative region or something?--Adûnâi (talk) 23:35, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population? 

message: The section on Economy has the rather surprising statement:
 The whole point of the kelp industry was that the large profits that could be made during its boom years were retained by the owners of these businesses and that the workforce got very little benefit from this activity. Suggesting that their wages contributed to the economy is a misleading simplification at best.
On looking at the reference, I see that it is a blog from an American travel writer. Surely this part of the section should cite an economic historian?
I note that further on in the section, the next citation is Malcolm Gray (1957). The Highland economy, 1750-1850. Greenwood Press. ISBN 9780837185361. I think that the understanding of the history of the Highlands has moved on since 1957 - and the article content supported thereby seems dubious to me.
Then we find  "The Scottish Highlands". Scotland Info Guide. 2015-02-27. Retrieved 2017-05-10. being used as a reference. This is a commercial blog. The content it supports could do with a rewrite based on a better source.
The section goes on to mention the concept of chain migration, supported by  Amanda Epperson (Oct 2009). "'It would be my earnest desire that you all would come': Networks, the Migration Process and Highland Emigration". Scottish Historical Review. 88 (2): 313–31. doi:10.3366/E0036924109000882. The reference is a paper that concentrates on one locality in the Highlands, going to one part of the USA (Eastern Ohio). Whilst chain migration did occur, it is a concept not often mentioned by historians who are recognised specialists on the social and economic changes in the Highlands. Interestingly, the word "chain" arises only once in the cited paper, and then it is referring to the onward movement of migrants in the Americas after their arrival (and this sort of discussion can be found in other papers on Highland migrants' behaviour on arrival overseas). I think we have a muddled usage of one reference to produce some misleading comments in the article. And I am not sure why comment on migration should be in the Economy section - if it is important then surely migration should have a section of its own.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 08:37, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inappropriate/misused references in Economy section 

message: I have deleted: "due to a combination of factors including the outlawing of the traditional Highland way of life following the Jacobite Rising of 1745, the infamous Highland Clearances, and mass migration to urban areas during the Industrial Revolution," and substituted with some referenced information on when net population of the Highlands was reducing. The deleted text really does not address the causes of population fall, most of which happened after the end of the clearances and certainly long after the Jacobite rebellions.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 17:45, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  A deletion, with reasons 

message: I have deleted   "Many Highlanders emigrated in a complex form of chain migration. The first arrivals would prepare the way for their kinsmen who continued to arrive in the chain migration."
Whilst the cited source is a useful paper, the text supported by the citation bears little resemblance to the ideas presented in the paper. If the 'Economy' section is to mention emigration (and I wonder if that is the best place for it), it really needs to say something different to reflect the current thinking of historians.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 07:38, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another deletion 

message: I've removed the painting 'The Emigrants' by William Allsworth. It's very unlikely it's a painting of a highland family. It's held in the collection of the Museum Of New Zealand/Te Papa Tongarewa and they say "Documents have recently come to light that suggest that James Mackay Snr. was probably not the brother of a laird, or even a Mackay from the Scottish Highlands at all. Evidence suggests his real surname was Mackie, and he came from an Aberdeen merchant family. He spent most of his life in London, and all his children were born there." https://collections.tepapa.govt.nz/topic/1406  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neilg (talk • contribs) 10:15, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  'The Emigrants' by William Allsworth 

message: An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Northeast Scotland. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  signed, Rosguill talk 20:34, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Northeast Scotland listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]