Talk:Fuzhou dialect

message: The section on Min opera in this article is merely copy-pasted from the Min Opera article itself. I considered deleting the section and adding a "See Also" link, but wanted some input first. Thoughts?
MeredithParmer 19:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed those texts. --GnuDoyng 16:18, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Min opera 

message: I translate them into "close rime" and "open rime" but I'm not sure of its correctness. See Close/Open rimes.
Has anyone got an idea?
GnuDoyng 13:49, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to translate "緊韻" and "鬆韻"？ 

message: Need the pronunciation of Kompyang (光饼 - an onion biscuit from Fuzhou that is popular in Malaysia) in the Fuzhou dialect. Please add it at Kompyang if you know it. I assume the Min Nan pronunciation isn't going to be close enough. Badagnani 17:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. --GnuDoyng 15:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Kompyang]] 

message: You know, the negative word "mei" written 卖 is most definitely 未.  Cantonese uses this character for the same sound.  <spetz>  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.120.85.210 (talk) 05:16, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No. "未" is pronounced as [mui] or [ei] in Foochow, quite different from "卖". --GnuDoyng 03:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  福州别字 

message: :Image:1 Cü Meng.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:1 Cü Meng.gif

message: Min Dong is a separate language, not Fuzhou?? No, Fuzhou dialect is a member of Min Dong language family. And the fact is, even within this language family, Fuzhou dialect itself is not mutually intelligible with other Min Dong languages like those spoken in Ningde. --GnuDoyng (talk) 04:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Min Dong is a separate language, not Fuzhou? 

message: For NPOV, shouldn't we move Fuzhou dialect to Foochowese language? This article of Foochowese seems to be the only one in Min languages that is denominated with "dialect". Isn't it ridiculous? --Luhungnguong (talk) 23:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That's right. Such misnomer often conceals the gigantic differences between this language and Mandarin Chinese. However, I think Fuzhou language or Foochow language might be better (I personally prefer the former one), because "Foochowese" is too new a word to be accepted into formal use. --GnuDoyng (talk) 05:59, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. But "Foochow language" is my preference, since the word "Foochow" appeared in published materials (like dictionary) more frequently than Fuzhou (which is also a new word). --Luhungnguong (talk) 14:53, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

text: "Fuzhounese" is often used to refer to people from Fuzhou, but "Fuzhou dialect" is the standard term for the language in English-language works on the subject.  Kanguole 09:48, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

text: You can make a case for the logic of your proposed name, but Wikipedia follows usage in English-language sources.  It is not the place to promote a new nomenclature not used by those sources.  Also, I've seen no evidence that it's used only for the old walled city.  Kanguole 19:35, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move Fuzhou dialect to Foochowese Language 

message: 徛 Khia
毋 Mm
戇 Gong
are not minyue words but chinese words, they are also used in cantonese to mean the same.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.73.10.66 (talk) 02:16, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not minyue words 

message: Number of issues that are relevant to the tone sandhi table in current section 2.1.1.1:
1) Needs citation. Chen (2000) Cambridge Studies in Linguistics 92 - Tone Sandhi: Patterns across Chinese dialects on page 49-50 gives very different citation tone values and values after tone sandhi for what I assume to be 新 (which is 陰平), 成 (陽平), and 聖 (which I believe is 陰去). Assuming the Fuzhou values are regular in relation to the development from Middle Chinese, this reference is inconsistent with the table.
2) There is no indication of which side of the table is the first syllable and which is the second syllable.
3) The table is inconsistent with the sandhi tone contours given for 福州 in current section 2.1.3.1, given that 福 is 陰入乙 according to the table, as it is transcribed with -k in Bàng-uâ-cê, if of course the table is to be read that way round with left-as-first syllable. But it is also inconsistent even when read as top-as-first syllable.
Michael Ly (talk) 00:22, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Update: have added a note addressing point 2) in the text. I've found the problem with 3) - 陰入甲 and 陰入乙 had been mixed up. So 福, with its /k/ phoneme realised as a glottal stop, is actually 陰入甲. --Michael Ly (talk) 00:01, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Second update: all of which solves 1); though 新 and 聖 are in the same sandhi class, 成 happens to undergo sandhi to form the same result in front of 人.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Ly (talk • contribs) 17:07, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tone Sandhi Rules 

message: In the article (as of this text's writing), the initial assimilation rules seem to be incomplete (or are wrong). Here's the section on the Initial Assimilation rules:
:In Fuzhou dialect, there are various kinds of initial assimilation (), all of which are progressive. When two or more than two characters combine into a word, the initial of the first character stays unchanged while those of the following characters, in most cases, change to match its preceding phoneme, i.e., the coda of its preceding character.
:
:
The Coda of the Former Character	The Initial Assimilation of the Latter Character
Null coda or                    	
*  and  change to ;
*  and  change to ;
*  and  change to null initial (without );
*  and  change to ;
*  and  remain unchanged.
                                	
 and  change to ;
*  and  change to ;
*  and  change to ;
*  and  change to ;
*  and  remain unchanged.
                                	All initials remain unchanged.
But the examples here do not conform to the said rules, so any expansion on the initial assimilation section is appreciated.
:
Romanization	IPA from Example	IPA Expected
nṳ̄ hō̤     	ny˧ ho˧         	ny˧ ŋo˧
cái-giéng   	tsai˥˧ kiɛŋ˨˩˧  	tsai˥˧ ŋiɛŋ˨˩˧
I'm a Cantonese-speaker, by the way. These rules are very foreign to me.
LCS (talk) 19:20, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually 汝好 nṳ̄ hō̤ doesn't undergo tone sandhi (the tone of 汝 hasn't changed from ˧ to ˧˥), so it wouldn't undergo initial assimilation either - it is composed of two sandhi domains. In general, initial assimilation and rime change are both less prevalent than tone sandhi, and only occur under certain conditions. Hence in the case of 再見, there is tone sandhi (the tone of 再 changes from ˨˩˧ to ˥˧) but there is no initial assimilation (so in 見 the // of // is not dropped); I'm not sure about the rime tensing, because I think it might be present, but it is non-contrastive so it is not written into the Bàng-uâ-cê orthography (I can't quite tell if // has become // in 再). The rules as to when initial assimilation and rime change are used constitute an extra layer of complexity, and that's on top of the definition of the 'word', which, like in the better-studied Min Nan group (including Amoy dialect and Taiwanese Hokkien), are still in the process of being worked out. In the case of 無綻, I would see this as one phrase, as there has been tone sandhi on the 無 (from ˥˧ to ˨˩) and there is initial assimilation, so I'd say it should be hyphenated. However, I know that the modern dictionaries hardly use Bàng-uâ-cê, and certainly not with hyphens, so it's quite hard to find a reference. Michael Ly (talk) 19:24, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  What rules dictate whether or not rime change and initial assimilation occur? Programmeruser (talk) 13:47, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is an interesting field of research. Various papers talk about it, e.g. You (2020),  Yang (2005). To grossly simplify: certain lexemes undergo it; certain morphemes cause it (most notably the common negative 伓, also written 唔, BUC: *n̂g*); it is possible to have one without the other; there is considerable dialectal variation with Eastern Min.   There exist some minimal pairs conditioned by the syntax, e.g. 菜頭 without initial assimilation = "the roots of vegetables" as a phrase, vs the lexeme "daikon radish" with initial assimilation; others are through metaphorical extension, e.g. 火把 without initial assimilation = "torch", but with initial assimilation referring to the fried dough snack.   Michael Ly (talk) 15:03, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Initial Assimilation Rules 

message: It seems to me that what is called "false friends" in this article are not, in fact, false friends? A "false friend" is generally a word or phrase that sounds and/or looks the same in both languages but means something different. The phrases cited here do not appear in Mandarin and thus they cannot be false friends, right?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daanvanesch (talk • contribs) 09:14, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "False friends" 

message: User:Bloodmerchant/Fuqing dialect may be worth finishing translating. Or maybe it could be used to expand this article. — kwami (talk) 04:15, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I would be willing to spend some time on sourcing more information on the Fuqing dialect (group) and on translating the article... can one edit that user page on the Fuqing dialect directly? I'm happy for any set-up, whether it is merged into the Fuzhou dialect one or kept separate. Michael Ly (talk) 02:56, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fuqing dialect 

message: Should the tone of 獨 after sandhi not be ˧? The table for trisyllabic sandhi right after the example contradicts the statement that it should be ˨˩. Programmeruser (talk) 19:06, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: On consulting Li Zhuqing (2002)'s Fuzhou phonology and grammar, p.97, I've found that both ˧ ˧ ˥ʔ (33-33-5ʔ) and ˨˩ ˧ ˥ʔ (21-33-5ʔ) are acceptable in most instances of this tone pattern (citing e.g. 着食药、食毒药、直直目). There are isolated cases where 陽入-陽入-陽入 must yield ˧ ˧ ˥ʔ (33-33-5ʔ) [given as ˦ ˦ ˥ʔ (44-44-5ʔ) in the source], such as in the word 六十六 lĕ̤k-sĕk-lĕ̤k, where the first syllable  undergoes sandhi (and rime tensing) to . The alternative trisyllabic pattern with first character sandhi ˨˩ (21) is valid for many tone patterns, but not all. Looks like we will have to examine this and do some editing. Michael Ly (talk) 01:46, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  獨立日 Tone Sandhi Example 

message: Some sources claim that ts/tsʰ assimilate to ʒ after a null or nasal coda, while 福州方言研究 states that they assimilate to z after a null coda and nz after a nasal coda. Programmeruser (talk) 23:25, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: In addition, 闽东方言的声母类化 states that it's ɹ and nɹ according to experimental data, which IMO sounds the most similar to me. Programmeruser (talk) 02:36, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Initial Assimilation Realization