Talk:Standard German phonology

message: How much support is there for this analysis? It might be reasonable historically or morphophonologically but it sounds like a fringe view synchronically. If it is, we might as well not mention it at all. Nardog (talk) 23:30, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you know any recent Fundstelle for this topic beyond the UTB source which I added last year? Nardog is still curious about it, and so am I, but keyword searches only lead me to the textbook witticism about the complementary distribution of  and , or to quite old sources like this one, which mentions Isačenko (1970) as trigger of the debate.Isačenko, A. V. (1970), "Der phonologische Status des velaren Nasals im Deutschen", in: H. Steger (ed.) Vorschläge für eine strukturale Grammatik des Deutschen (Wege der Forschung 146), Darmstadt, S. 468-479. –Austronesier (talk) 07:32, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  No I don't. I remember I liked the brief presentation of ten categories of arguments in Lass (1984:216–220)Roger Lass (1984) Phonology. An introduction to basic concepts. Cambridge: CUP. which is based on Dressler (1981).W. U. Dressler (1981) External evidence for an abstract analysis of the German velar nasal. in: D. Goyvaerts (1981) Phonology in the 1980s. Ghent: E. Story-Scientia. All old stuff. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 09:13, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Velar nasal as /nɡ/ 

message: Where can I find further information on the difference between phonemic and phonetic diphthongs? The difference is clear, but I would like to know where these terms come from. — GPodkolzin Talk 14:19, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diphthongs 

message: Related to the discussion further above, I'm surprised to find that there is no mention in the article of the fact that in some (southern) varieties of Standard German, voiced sibilants are consistently devoiced or even merge with their voiceless counterparts, at least in some environments (such as word-initially). As far as I'm aware, this is the case in Austrian Standard German and Swiss Standard German, for instance, and also in my own regional Bavarian-coloured variety of Standard German. Even in the north, /ʒ/ and /d͡ʒ/ are not always realised as such, and may not even be accepted as phonemes at all. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:40, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a note to that regard: “The obstruents /b, d, ɡ, z, ʒ, dʒ/ are voiceless lenis [b̥, d̥, ɡ̊, z̥, ʒ̊, d̥ʒ̊] in southern varieties, and they contrast with voiceless fortis [p, t, k, s, ʃ, tʃ].” I am not entirely convinced of the latter part of that note. Devoiced [ʒ̊, d̥ʒ̊] merges with [ʃ, tʃ] – in stark contrast with devoiced [b̥, d̥, ɡ̊, z̥] which remain distinct from [p, t, k, s]. I am amending that note accordingly. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 19:04, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you! I used search strings like /z/, /z or z/, and completely missed that paragraph while skimming too. At least the paragraph is now improved (though it could use a reference). I just realised there's a whole section on the subject! --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:29, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Voiced sibilants 

message: I'm surprised that [ʝ] is described as a common or even normal realisation of /j/ in several sources. In my personal idiolect, /j/ may feature slight frication when it is especially stressed, but otherwise it does not seem to be anything other than an approximant, and may even be lowered from a [i̯] to a half-vowel as open as [e̯]. I do not recall hearing [ʝ] often from other speakers either, even from more northern regions in Germany – except perhaps in a strong far northern accent influenced by Low German –, and in any case it does not seem to be a common realisation outside of Northern Germany and parts of the Rhineland, perhaps. I'm pretty sure that such a realisation would be perceptively salient enough to stand out to me, like it does in certain northern regiolects. That my impression is probably not completely mistaken is suggested by this discussion, where many participants, even other Wikipedians with linguistic and phonetic training, do not even seem to be passively familiar with this realisation, or judge it rare. Additional evidence is the fact that there is not even the slightest mention of it in the German version of this article, either (unless I've missed it), and it solidly classifies /j/ as an approximant. In any case it is odd that most of the sources do not give any indications towards a regional distribution of this realisation, and some even treat it as the norm. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:49, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fricative realisation of /j/ 

message: I tried to add this map to the article https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Velar_fronting_after_ae.pdf, but it does not show up. Help is appreciated. The source is page 456 of https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/331. The pdf is open access/CC-BY Jasy jatere (talk) 07:49, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with adding map 

message: The entire section on sound changes and mergers is unsourced. Furthermore, the first section makes claims about a merger of the vowels ä and e when the vowel section claims that there is a dispute about whether there is actually any difference between the two.—-Ermenrich (talk) 13:01, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sound changes and mergers section entirely unsourced