Talk:Hindu–German Conspiracy

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Many of the referances seem to consist of a anme a date and a page, this makes it rather difficult to trace the source. [[Slatersteven (talk) 19:15, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The name, date and page links to the ==notes== section which through the  template lists the author, publication date and page number. This is in turn linked through the harvard ciation templates to the literature section. It is a part of the  templates designed for use to cite references consistently. I realise this is a bit hard to understand, but you can see how it works in the main article page, as opposed to the editing version you're seeing.
1.	^ Desai 2005, p. 30 
2.	^ Desai 2005, p. 43 
3.	^ Desai 2005, p. 93 
4.	^ Desai 2005, p. 125 
5.	^ Desai 2005, p. 154 
1.	^ Bose & Jalal 1998, p. 117 
2.	^ Dutta & Desai 2003, p. 135 
3.	^ Bhatt 2001, p. 83 
No other information, does not link to anything. I have not tried any others, but I suspect there may be more.
But fraiser and cor now do.
[[Slatersteven (talk) 19:42, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: These have now been added, please let me know if you find more. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 19:47, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Since over 48 hours have passed, I will assume that your suspicions were more presumpitive than substantive, since you also appear to ascribe notabillity per wikipedia citations of literature. Let me know when your suspicions are confirmed, please, wont you. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 01:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: GA review

message: Sorry, but what? Where's the evidence of SF involvement in all this, it isn't even properly mentioned in the article. I see a couple of mentions of SF (just links, not detail), plus maybe "Those involved in this liaison, and later involved in the plot, included major Irish republicans and Irish-American nationalists like John Devoy, Joseph McGarrity, Roger Casement, Eamon de Valéra, Father Peter Yorke and Larry de Lacey", which ignores that many of them weren't really anything to do with SF. Reference 108 is mentioned which is this source, but unless I'm missing something that only says "During that turbulent period of Irish history, many pitched battles were being fought between the Irish Republic Army — the Sinn Fein — and the British security force", which isn't particularly accurate anyway. SF at the time of the Easter Rising and earlier was a very different party to the one at the time of the First Dáil and Irish War of Independence. Does Plowman (I assume) state SF involved in the "pre-war collusions", or are the involvement of certain people who would later be involved in SF being used to backdate SF's involvement? Quotes from the source would be helpful please. 2 lines of K303 13:13, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I didn't get to reply earlier. Plowman says these:
(Plowman p87,88)
(Plowman p97).
And subsequently a quote about the Irish uprising in India:
(Plowman 102)
But even before this, V.D. Savarkar, a key leader of India House is known to have strong links with Sinn Fein,(Five Stormy Years: Savarkar in London, June 1906-June 1911. Harindra Srivastava. p72 Allied Publishers. 1983)(Hindu Nationalism: Origins, Ideologies and Modern Myths. Chetan Bhatt.p84  Berg Publishers. 2001), as far as that a Sinn Fein leader called Maude Gonne is believed to have been involved in the attempt to rescue Savarkar from Brixton prison.(The Internationalism of Irish Literature and Drama. Joseph McMinn. p299. Association for the Study of Anglo-Irish Literature Triennial Conference. 1992)
The bottom line is I am dont know a lot about the Irish movement and about Sinn Fein itself, but the literature I am using as sources are saying that members (and supporters?) of Sinn Fein where along with the other Republican movements were involved in helping the Indians and the Germans, preceding as far as the initial steps of India House in Britain. It is not suggested that they were involved inside out, and hence I did not devote any large section on it in this already massive article. I do intend to include it in the subarticle on the Hindu-German Conspiracy Trial, and this is why I have left it at the  template. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 15:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

text: No problem. The thing is, prior to around 1917 when SF was infiltrated and basically radicalised by members of the Irish Volunteers who took part in the Easter Rising, they were a peaceful party who did not agree with the use of violence to attain Irish independence. In fact Arthur Griffith disapproved of it, and believed Ireland should retain the monarchy as a consitutional link with Britain. That said, there were always links to varying extents between the various organisations both in Ireland and Irish-America, so I wouldn't read too much into the "American Independent" publishing "pro-Sinn Féin propaganda". The house on Eddy Street being used by "Sinn Feiners" may just be a contemporary use of the term, for example the people responsible for the Easter Rising were widely (and erroneously) called "Sinn Feiners", and again you have to look at the crossover in membership. For example Michael Collins joined SF in around 1908, in addition to being a member of the Irish Republican Brotherhood and later the Irish Volunteers. So while it's fair to say there is evidence of involvement of SF members to varying extents, to say in the lead it's "extensively supported by . . . Sinn Féin" is rather misleading. Re Maud Gonne, from what I've been able to discover it was approximately 1910 when the attempted jailbreak took place, whereas according to some accounts she didn't join SF till after the Easter Rising in 1916, but she was involved in other nationalist organisations. While there's no disputing co-operation between members, I think it's slightly misleading to portray it as a party-wide thing, does that sound fair? 2 lines of K303 15:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I'd probably just remove both mentions, at least for now. In my mind, the whole point of a "See also" should be to take the reader to somewhere where they can read more about their involvement, but it doesn't really do that. SF as a party really don't seem to have any documented involvement in this conspiracy, despite the actions of individuals. 2 lines of K303 20:41, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Reuben,if you had carefully read my point, I did not state that I don’t have access to published papers. In fact I have access to Irish related papers and material only available to few Irish editors. One of the difficulties of responding to this issue is the burden of proof to demonstrate something which doesn't exist now falls on anyone who queries this article. This is the ultimate conundrum when it comes to conspiracies. I made the point about sources being generally accessible to conform to Wikipedia’s policy on referencing. Apart from that, there are multiple issues with this presentation, ranging from linking to Wiki sources of disputed neutrality Irish Republicanism, to a 'flexible' interpretation to what sources actually say.  At random I cross-checked references 33 and 34; at this point the article claims that a collaborative attempt between Indian and Irish Nationalists to smuggle arms on the SS Moratis was thwarted by a search at Smyma,. Even by the references given, this is stretching the point. Popplewell states merely that erroneous intelligence resulted in ‘the farcical conclusion’ that arms rather than the true cargo of industrial chemicals were on board. In fact, nothing in his book that I have read indicates an effective collaboration between Irish and Indian Nationalists, even in the relative safety of the US. Contact was much less in fact than might be expected of political activists with a common enemy. There is also the very obvious issue of ‘original research’. Personally, I am inclined to give plenty of latitude on this point, being of the opinion that all worthwhile Wikipedia articles should be more than just a cut-and-paste job of other people’s work. I can give no opinion regarding German-Indian relations or even contacts between individual Irish Nationalists and Indian Nationalists, but a Hindu-German-Sinn Féin conspiracy is something else entirely. I would be pleasantly surprised to find that Sinn Féin was so committed, on principle, to undermining Imperialism that they collaborated effectively with their Indian contemporaries towards this end. The facts, however, still say otherwise. Sinn Féin was well aware that if an Irish-Indian conspiracy threatening the stability of the Empire was discovered and publicised by the British it would have put at risk their primary objective which was independence for Ireland. This very point was specifically considered when representatives of the Irish Republic sought recognition for their state Even so, there were contacts with Egyptian and S. African Nationalist delegations to the Paris Peace Conference, (but none that I have found with Indians), with a view to exchanging ideas, but this is far from the idea of a sustained conspiracy. If you wish the Irish Nationalist connection to be reviewed, I suggest you invite Irish editors to get involved, but would strongly advise double checking the Irish related referencing before doing so.
No disrespect intended to any contributorsRashersTierney (talk) 21:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding the Irish Nationalist link, and not to be completely negative, I think the connection with Clann na Gael ( Clan na Gael ), John Devoy Joe McGarrity and possibly Roger Casement is on much surer ground, and this is where the article should concentrate. Relationships between the various Irish Nationalist/Separatist/Republican organisations and leaders were not always harmonious and rifts were very often present before they came to public attention. Sinn Féin was infiltrated by the IRB (privately resented by many in SF), which in turn was broadly linked to Clann na Gael, but they were not synonymous. Casement was used by the IRB and the Clann, but was not a member of either and neither his politics nor  judgement were trusted by them. The fact that Irish leaders and activists of various political hues were in contact with each other, much less Indian Nationalists, does not mean that a concerted conspiracy existed. Much of the apparent unity of purpose between the Irish organisations has been written over the years to accommodate the expediencies of Realpolitik. But the implied/stated link with Sinn Féin, unless some new and overwhelming evidence is produced, really should go. The implication that  de Valera was directly involved in an Indo-German conspiracy is also seriously open to question notwithstanding private sympathies he may have had.RashersTierney (talk) 12:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Plowman does mention de Valera by name though, although I dont have the paper to hand at the moment to quote from, but Iam sure he was mentioned explicitly. Rasher, what I will say is, have a look at the first discussion, and the quotes I gave, which should give you an idea. That, added with what you have outlined above, should help reword the article because the Sinn Fein is not really mentioned in that much detail. You I am hoping are in a position to do this yourself. If not, please give me a week or two, I am trying to get India House to FAC (you might want to check out the last section of the article as well) as well as Niedermayer-Hentig Expedition to FAC, so my hands are kinda full. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 13:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Rueben, this is a discussion page. You should expect points of view to be raised and discussed until some consensus emerges. RashersTierney (talk) 00:00, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sinn Féin?

message: This book, written by a NYC policeman of the time, has a chapter on the subject. 68.39.174.238 (talk) 23:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: see above section. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 16:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

text: I showed up mostly before that, or @least didn't read it. 68.39.174.238 (talk) 23:26, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another source 

message: For a discursive analysis of the colonial relationship between India and Ireland ( including the Nationalist perspective), at the turn of the 19th-20th cent., Ireland and India- Colonies, Culture and Empire eds. Foley and O'Connor,  is a v. good starting point. Included is an article by Plowman (mentioned in main article as 'for publication'), which is essentially his New Hibernian Review piece, but cut back. In all, the book contains 24 essays, presented to a conference at UCG in 2004. It is also sold at an accessible price in paperback.RashersTierney (talk) 08:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Book--Ireland and India 

message: Can anyone explain how this event is in any way linked to an Indian nationalist-German Government conspiracy, much less the Hindu-German Conspiracy?RashersTierney (talk) 16:48, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Connaught Rangers mutiny 

message: I hate to nitpick, but I do want to improve the article.  Look at the 3rd or last paragraph of the section described above.  The majority of the paragraph is unnecessarily italicized.  I do not understand the rationale but perhaps someone would defend or explain the reason.  I hate to nitpick a matter of formatting rather than substance but I genuinely want to improve the article.  Thank you.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.14.80.118 (talk) 04:02, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excessive Italics in Last (3rd) Paragraph of "Indian and Irish networks" 

message: It is inadequate, in my view.--Severino (talk) 10:06, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: Obviously nobody seems to have a problem with this title. Indians are being called conspirators, trying to free themselves from colonial rule. Again Anglo-Americans above the "rest"? Wikirictor (talk) 13:24, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title again 

message: Title is inadequate and shameful, looks like a propaganda by bigotry hindu machinery . Why it is called "Hindu-german" why not "Sikh-German" or "Dalait-German" or "Muslim-German" ? It was a freedom struggle and If we start looking into the sacrifices based on the faith or religion then more than 93% Sikh were died during the freedom, How come this article called Hindu-german ? The moment was started by the Sikh, was taken forward by Sikh and they gave there life for the freedom. Dilpreet Singh ping  03:34, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Title Proposal 

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