Talk:Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study

message: Why does it say "Due to confounding of social and biological factors, it was inconclusive in terms of determining relative environmental or biological contributions to racial differences in IQ – as the study's result could be interpreted as supporting either hypothesis." Like, how in the world could the results be interpreted as supporting anything other than the genetic hypothesis?
 That's what happens when your study is not well done---  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.81.100.198 (talk) 00:22, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Either hypothesis

message: Has any researcher observed the effect that societal racism might have in the child's advancement?  The caste-like minority argument seems relevant here.--Urthogie 17:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then how do you explain the achievement gap between blacks and mulattos? They are both viewed as black. --217.233.215.46 (talk) 16:51, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: When I was in high school I saw plenty of recognition among students of relative 'blackness'. A mulatto student would be considered racially different than a black student. alach11 (talk) 20:39, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  effect of racism 

message: Were Black children adopted more often by Black foster parents than White children were? Pablo2garcia 12:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  no data on race of adopting parents 

message: I remember eading that the black children were adopted later and later adoption age lowers iq. YVNP (talk) 05:21, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  age and iq scores 

message: the first table makes it look like all the kids took IQ tests at age 17.  only a select group did and this select group had lower IQs  at age 7 to begin with.  hence, the gap between the ages is exaggerated.  Someone should create a seperate table for all age 7 kids, and then the age7+age17 table should have the age 7 scores of only the kids who were tested at age17.  this needs to be fixed, its a gaping error in the article. --anon.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.240.198 (talk) 17:02, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: misleading table

message: The last paragraph doesn't cite any evidence: "However, the study can be considered largely invalid due to how it was looking at the effects of parental influence, now well understood to typically exert little effect on a child's IQ." - it sounds like the opinion of the author.  It should be removed.
Nada (talk) 18:22, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last paragraph 

message: FTR, I am a middle aged person raised by birth parents who were black and white. There is an uncorroborated report the black parent was measured (presumably in the medical hospital of the Federal Prison System, I think in MO) with a Stanford Binet statistic of 160. The white parent probably was not above the mean and more likely was slightly below, not having graduated high school. I have been a Mensa member and have reason to believe my g figure would be about 4 sigma comparable to the black parent. Neither parent was a professional middle class individual. As hard as it is for people apparently to see, the data suggest two facts people seem to want to resist. First a probable statistically significant hereditary handicap for some people of African descent. I doubt it applies to people from every part of Africa and failure to acknowledge a glaringly obvious scientific finding only exacerbates the problem and blocks possible attempts to confirm (or dispel), fully understand, and address it therapeutically. Second. it's an obvious fact that as black teens acculturate their IQs drop. If that is what is meant by the researchers assigning environment, i.e. the identification of the mixed and black children with the fundamentally anti-intellectual black culture then I concur. The evidence of the difference at 7 and 17 in this study show that the first effect, from heredity, is the lesser of the two while the latter comprises the bulk of the phenomenon. On the world historical stage the first effect looms larger but in the context of American society and those with similar issues elsewhere, and in view of the fact that it is both a cultural artefact, in principal changeable simply by changing attitudes, and the bulk of the overall deficit, addressing it is therefore logically more likely to achieve desirable results.In fact the data of this study suggest that ⅓ of the effect is nature and ⅔ is nurture. The importance of this special case for the anti-intellectual American culture generally with its declining performance in education relative to other countries should be obvious. Also, the more interesting genetic effect is that which results in higher g. It is exceedingly unfortunate that a mass of over politicized thinking prevents even a general acceptance of the reality of g itself, let alone the scientific determination of these particular matters of fact.  Lycurgus (talk) 05:15, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look at the tables reporting the IQs of the four tested groups (adopted black, adopted mixed race, adopted white, non-adopted white) at ages 7 and 17, you'll notice that the scores of all the groups declined from age 7 to 17. For the white adoptees the decline was actually a bit sharper than for the black ones. So, clearly the drop in scores cannot be attributed to any specific anti-intellectualism of the African-American culture. Rather, it is a phenomenon well-known to behavioral geneticists: while the effect of an atypical family environment (either a very good or a very bad one) on traits such as IQ is large in early childhood, by age 12 this so-called shared environmental effect will virtually vanish, with the effect that the hereditary effects and the non-shared, individual environmental effects explain just about all the variation in the IQs of grown-ups. Also, a less dumbed down popular culture would of course be desirable, but how would you go about bringing it about?--Victor Chmara (talk) 01:14, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  With respect to the text prior to the last sentence, acknowledged, will review. As for "what is to be done", I'm not sure there is anything that need be done or rather I think it probable that the situation is self-correcting. That is I think the situation of being ignorant and backward in a species that is on the brink of the development of full scientific self-awareness will, if it does not result in a general species extinction, cull the offending groups/cultures/nation-states/individuals. Also your assignment of the problem to "popular culture" hints at its basis in class-based society, whose possible restructuring by the elites who will direct the next stage of its development could provide a positive answer. Lycurgus (talk) 13:44, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Now let me pick apart and acquiesce to or refute the prior part as the facts warrant. With respect to the matter of fact of the uniform decline, of course, acknowledged, it's a general cultural issue not sparing any identity group whatsoever up to and including those who are biologically gifted in so far as the physiological support for thinking is concerned, the academic and intellectual elites, etc. However the impact is different in different subgroups. As far as the text contained after "So clearly ..." I deny the denial of that which of I have deep personal experience and which is the differential effect referred to in the previous sentence and empirically attested in the data we are discussing. As far the remaining thesis is concerned: duh, it's just saying that the effect is primarily social/cultural/environmental. The overall effect is, that doesn't negate the differential which is itself a matter of an aggravated case of the general as you say "dumbed down" culture. As far as the statement about white adoptees decline being a bit sharper that appears to be a counterfactual, the opposite of the data in the 2 tables ATM. Lycurgus (talk) 14:22, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apparent Truth of the Matter 

message: You may find it helpful while reading or editing articles to look at a bibliography of  Intelligence Citations, posted for the use of all Wikipedians who have occasion to edit articles on human intelligence and related issues. I happen to have circulating access to a huge academic research library at a university with an active research program in these issues (and to another library that is one of the ten largest public library systems in the United States) and have been researching these issues since 1989. You are welcome to use these citations for your own research. You can help other Wikipedians by  suggesting new sources through comments on that page. It will be extremely helpful for articles on human intelligence to edit them according to the  Wikipedia standards for reliable sources for medicine-related articles, as it is important to get these issues as well verified as possible. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 19:58, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: All of you are welcome to  suggest new sources to make this article and related articles on Wikipedia more complete and accurate. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 15:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intelligence Citations Bibliography for Articles Related to IQ Testing 

message: I was led here from a dispute on YouTube which indicated that white nationalist groups use Wikipedia references to this article to promote various race-centric claims. It was discovered that the Wikipedia article contains omissions and has a certain POV discussing this material. There are various issues with the article, in terms of omissions and which conclusions in literature are discussed (and which are, again, omitted). For example, the study also included Asian/Native Americans and the data can be found in the original articles as well as in Loehlin (2000). The table from Loehlin is only incompletely reported here with the Asian entry removed. The Wikipedia article in its current form gives no indication at all that Asian population was included. Further, the original study already discussed its confounding with respect to adoption histories and gave indication that this can explain the observed black/black vs black/white children differences. Further what in this article is cited as Rushton referring to "a special study" already appeared in full in the original paper. The citation to Rushton's booklet is questionable as the page on the book itself indicated given the level of critique of this work. Further the followup analysis by DeBerry, Scarr, and Weinberg on the data of this study (Child Development, Vol. 67, No. 5 (Oct., 1996), pp. 2375-2399) is missing.
Given that this article is in arbitration I am not editing. 
If no arbitration were in place, or alternatively, I had permission to edit, I would do the following edits:
# Add the Asian/Indian data to the first table from the original 1992 paper, and add sample size numbers.
# Add the omitted line of Asian/Indian data from Loehlin (2000) and add sample size numbers.
# Correct the wrong citation to Loehlin (2000). The article appeared in the Handbook of Intelligence not the Handbook of Human Intelligence, the rest of the citation is correct.
# Add a table describing the averages for early and late adoption effects from the 1992 paper given that it illustrates the confounding effect.
# Add a section discussing experimental design, and sample selection.
# Add discussion of DeBerry, Scarr and Weinberg (1996). This paper discusses adoptee's adjustment issues as found by the study.
# Add discussion of Loehlin's (2000) interpretation of the work.
Finally I find the reference to Rushton with the select quote questionable. The original Scarr et all (1976) paper already contains this data and hence is a better source to cite. I do not see how Rushton can claim that a "special study" was performed. As can be seen on the pages discussing the book, it has received many critical reviews and perhaps should be taken with due caution as a source. Hence I would advocate that this particular citation be removed, or alternatively be replaced with perhaps a peer-reviewed publication by Rushton, though I find pointing to the original source preferable.
In closing I would like to note that the article in its current form is conveying misleading information and is used as such by consumers of wikipedia to push a POV and I consider it quite urgent that given that Wikipedia is widely used as a first point of access, that the article at least receives the base factual corrections, which at the bare minimum is the correction of the citation to Loehlin and the addition of the omitted data entries from the tables, and an adjustment of the introductory statement to include mention that Asian/Indian adoptees were also studied.141.212.71.146 (talk) 22:08, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Go ahead and make those modifications. The arbitration does not prevent you from editing unless you are one of the banned editors. However, Wikipedia should be mainly based on secondary sources so Rushton is probably preferable to the original article.--Victor Chmara (talk) 08:38, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Alright then. I've made most of the promised edits. While I see your point about secondary sources, I have still removed Rushton's reference. There are multiple reasons for this. Most importantly, I have tried to find a secondary source that would verify Rushton's claim that a "special study" was ever conducted. I could not find such a source, including the unabridged version of the cited book, which clearly should be a better source. Overall, I have made many changes, all while having the relevant sources in front of me. There were numerous problems that I corrected, including numbers in tables (numbers from wrong column positions were taken from the original paper). Please let me know if there is any question on any of the edits. Overall I think that some secondary sources discussing/interpreting DeBerry, Scarr and Weinberg (1996) should be added to the interpretation section. I will look to expand on this in future edits. 141.212.71.146 (talk) 04:43, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Final number fix to the results table. The white children IQ was also from the wrong column. This is fixed now. 141.212.71.146 (talk) 05:17, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree to removing Rushton there. But is the quote now given properly sourced to Loehlin? I can't find it.  And is the "Further offers another possible explanation of the results, namely maternal effects" incompletely worded, or is "Further" the author of the quote?  Professor marginalia (talk) 00:03, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The quote is from Loehlin (2000). To find it, go to page 189. The quote can be found in the section titled "Racial-Ethnic Effects: Conclusions." It starts in the left column at the very bottom (second line from the bottom) and continues into the right column until the end of the paragraph on the same page. I'm considering also referring to Loehlin's statement that more work is needed. The precise quote for this is "So we are left with the usual conclusion: More research is needed." This quote can be found further down also on page 189. 141.212.71.146 (talk) 03:20, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah! I see it now. Thank you.    Professor marginalia (talk) 03:30, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article presents incomplete data and likely POV 

message: I see that editors are going back and forth in summarizing the main conclusions of the study. I'm watching without actively intervening one way or another as the edits go on. It occurs to me that the Scarr festschrift, which I have at hand but haven't even entered into my Wikipedia user bibliography yet, may be helpful in summarizing the study. That book is Experience and Development, a book you may be able to find in a library near you. I'll keep watching this article. Best wishes for all of us to reach a common understanding on how to describe the study and its findings for readers of Wikipedia. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 14:38, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  December 2014 edits 

message: I just read the study of Drew Thomas >>Racial IQ Differences among Transracial Adoptees: Fact or Artifact?<<. I can't finde the numbers. Firstly he corrected for the Flynn -effect in three studys from  >>Winick, Meyer, and Harris, 1975<<, >>Clark and Hanisee, 1982<< and >>Frydman and Lynn, 1989<< because they didn't have a control sample. He didn't correct for the Flynn-effect in the MTRAS study, he rather wrote: "The published MTRAS reports do not have enough information to correct for that Flynn effect, so I take the published data as given while warning that a Flynn effect might have skewed them." Secondly he did correct for attrition, and came to these results: 101.8 for Whites, 98.3 for Black-Whites and 90.1 for Blacks not what the article says. The difference between BW and W he attributes to statistical noise and the difference between B and W to pre-adoption characteristics. One should correct these numbers, I suppose. --FlatEarther333 (talk) 18:37, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drew Thomas' Study: Numbers correct?