Talk:Antiochian Greek Christians

message: I was thinking perhaps some of the photos should be changed and replaced with one or two ancient and medieval Antiochians instead of just all modern day ones. Elias Antonius (talk) 15:35, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos of Antiochian Greeks 

message: I was thinking that the history section should really be expanded and connected to other articles. What about starting off with the first Greeks of the Levant such as the Sea Peoples. Then talking about the Seleucid Empire, and the Levant under Roman and Byzatine rule. Also a subsection on the Islamic occupation, both Arab and Turkish, and finishing off with the Ottoman Greek Genocide. What do you guys think? Elias Antonius (talk) 15:40, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expanding history section 

message: It seems that Wikipedia have turned into a forum for dreaming people. This article is counting on dreams instead of reality. If someone believes himself a Greek because of his church then he is free, but he cant write those absurdities on Wikipedia. Greek orthothox or catholic in the levant is not Ethnic Greek. I f you are an Ethnic Greek and you need to write about your people then you have this article Greeks in Syria. However, you cant merge the Church and Ethnicity. Maybe this will suit you better than Wikipedia (Im sure this blog gave much ideas to the edits on this article )
Before we start, this sumary  is un-wikipedic. There is no OUR PAGE in Wikipedia. This encyclopedia isnt for anyone and not a platform for opinions.
*1- I deleted the pictures of Pagan Greeks, as this article should speak about Christians in the Levant who follow the church not about Ethnic Greeks in the Levant who have their own article. I also deleted those historic segment about the Seleucids, Sea people ....etc. This article is about a religious sect not about the Ethnic Greeks in Syria.
*2-The impression that the Sea-People mixed with Canaanites to produce Phenicians ! or that they are the root of rum christians. Well, aside from the fact that Phoenician cities show continued development from 3200 BC, the DNA tests found no significant genetic impact on samples from old Phoenicians. Who Were the Phoenicians? - National Geographic Magazine
*3- Zenobia was an Aramean women who was not christian ! nor a Greek ! and all the accounts linking her to the Seleucids are considered apocryphal by real scholars Rome in the East: The Transformation of an Empire
*4- Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, while all you've got is this 2. which is written in 1909 by Pavlos Karolidis who lived at an age when Religion decided your ethnic background, but you cant use this with modern scholarly ! 
*5- the modern sources describe that the majority of Rum consider themselves as belonging to the same ethnicity as their fellow citizens not as ethnic Greeks. Language, Religion and National Identity in Europe and the Middle East: A Historical Study Religious Minorities in the Middle East: Domination, Self-Empowerment, Accommodation The Governance of Legal Pluralism: Empirical Studies from Africa and Beyond
*6- If scholarly isnt enough, then I've got you solid scientific evidence, which is DNA. It prove that you are no different than the other moslims, maronites.....etc of the region ! you are not genetically closer to Greeks. 
*7- The majority of Levantine Christians are part of the Greek church, and before the arabs, most of the levant was Greek christian. If you think that most of the Levant was Ethnic Greek then fine, but dont present this as facts and keep it on forums and Facebook pages.
*8- I have sourced every thing with reliable sources, you need reliable sources to conclude that most of the followers of the Greek churches in the Levant are actual ethnic Greek (which you wont be able to find since it is laughable)
*9- You are using this  to say that the Byzantine empire had a majority Greek ethnicity !! but I doubt you even read it ! because its saying that only after the arab conquest of The east that Byzantium became Greek ! so Antiochians are not included in that source as part of the majority greek empire. 
*10- My edits are reliably sourced and you cant delete them cause you dont like them. You will need to have a reliable strong source for your strong claims, others, you will be reported for vandalism, POV pushing .....etc. It normally end with block, just see the Assyrian people page and its editors, most of them are blocked. I hope not to waste my time with Nationalists or dreamers, so if this turned into fruitless discussion or an Edit war then we will need the help of Admins. Be careful, I have added the reliable sources to the article and it is un-allowed to delete reliably sourced material on Wikipedia. Normally, when something is contested then all views must be represented, I have kept your view that you are Greeks. I suggest that you start an article about Rumism, much like Phoenicianism. Better yet, you can do articles on your political organizations .....etc, But you cant abduct this article and present your ideology as facts.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 06:01, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: You have no right to accuse anyone of Vandalism. The ethnic Greeks in Syria have their own article. This is about a religious sect that started after Christ. YOU have no pages in Wikipedia. There is no Aramean propaganda and Im not Aramean nor a Christian regardless of my User Name. If you think you are ethnic Greek, then prove it with reliable sources. Otherwise you will be reported for POV pushing and falsification.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 15:09, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

text: And one last thing, since this is a debated subject and we follow the NPOV policy, then even if you found sources to back your claims, you still cant delete source materials as all views must be represented.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 15:12, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

text: And I advise to never use the word OUR page on Wikipedia. Read the policy Wikipedia:Ownership of articles.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 15:15, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

text: This isnt about Assyrians and Im not one. Yes there are Ethnic Greeks in Syria, but the followers of the Greek Church (the majority of Syria Christians) are not Ethnic Greeks. Most of Syria Christians are part of that Church and they are not Greeks. Ethnic Greeks in Syria have their own article which speak of them. Antiochian Greeks are a religious sect. Now, You need reliable sources for the claim that the Christians rum are ethnic Greeks. I have provided every thing to show the reality, and in the same time, kept the claims of Pavlos Karolidis.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 18:18, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Is that a serious article !

message: It is not a good evidence: it doesn't look at the Cypriots and Greeks to see commonalities. DNA studies are notoriously flawed because they can show many aspects without base population. Remove section.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.48.89 (talk) 11:04, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you cant remove it since its sourced and its not being used to debunk greek blood but to prove that Rums dont belong to a different origin than the other levantines. Go find a study that look at Cyproite and Greeks, but without solid evidence you cant make the majority of the Levant Christians ethnically greeks. For now, the Rums are not much different from Moslims and Maronites. By the way, what if it looked to Greeks and Cyproites and found that they are close to Rums and at the same time the Rums are similar to other Levantines ! whould that make the whole Levant of Greek ethnicity ?!! (dont answer that). BY the way, dont count on closeness to Cyprus to prove Greekness, even the Cyproites themselves admit that they are practically Hellenized Near-easternes. According to Dr Paul Kosteas, executive director of the Centre for the Study of Haematological Malignancies of the Karaiskakio Foundation, Cyproite Greeks have only 23 per cent of Greek markers, so imagine what would be the percent for Rums in the Levant. Our DNA looks East, not West--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 11:07, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  DNA evidence 

message: An editor complained about this article at WP:ANI. After looking into the dispute, I've applied full protection through July 7. This means nobody can change the article except admins until that time. During the period of protection, if you want to propose a change to the article that you believe has consensus, please use the  template here on the talk page and an admin will consider the request. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 04:13, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article protected 

message: In the lead this sentence was entered : and a growing number of Antiochians are using it as an ethnic designation due to the Levant's Hellenistic and Byzantine past. However, its un-sourced and the source given was added by me and it declare that Greek specifically mean Liturgy not ethnicity.
I want the sentence to reflect the source : The designation "Greek" refers to the use of Greek language in liturgy and not to the Ethnic origin.  Or at least moving the source and put it after the comma in the sentence : The designation "Greek" refers to the use of Greek language in liturgy, Because this source do not back up the notion that a growing number is identifying as Greek.
Attar-Aram syria (talk) 04:26, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: waiting for comments from other editors — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:22, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

text: There seems to be no opposition so I'll make the change requested. However can you confirm which reference should be moved after the comma? Is it the US senate committee publication? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:28, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I just saw this. Yes, the reference of the US committee should have its place changed and be put right after the sentence : The designation "Greek" refers to the use of Greek language in liturgy,--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 08:34, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Should be sorted now — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:37, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected edit request on 7 June 2015 

message: Today descendants of the Greek community form the Antiochian (Greek) Orthodox and Melkite Greek Catholic Church’s. The Syriac community continues in the Maronite, Syrian Catholic and Syrian Orthodox churches.
http://www.melkite.net/who-we-are/who-melkite-church/pluralism
Apparently this Melkite Church is stating that both the Orthodox and Catholic Antiochians Churches are ethnic Greek Elias Antonius (talk) 03:54, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The vast majority of Academic sources disagree. In Wikipedia we count on reliable sources, and this church's claims are refused by the Academic world. This church's claims can only support the notion that some adherents believe themselves Greeks, but not that they are actually Greeks. You have this Moorish Science Temple of America claiming all African Americans descends from the Muslim Moors who conquered Spain, and specifically from Morocco, it doesnt make them actual Moors. People claim a lot of things and without reliable Academic sources, their claims dont belong in Wikipedia.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 04:10, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

text: Elias, all you're providing us right now is your opinions, your own research and a dismissal of the consensus of reliable, scholarly sources that good Wikipedia articles are made of. This simply won't fly here. If you have any reliable sources that say the Greek Orthodox and Melkite Christians of Damascus, Aleppo, Homs, Beirut, Zahle, Qarah, Maaloula, Hauran and so on are in fact ethnic Greeks and not the descendants of the native, Semitic, inhabitants of the Levant, just as many of their Muslim counterparts are, then your argument will hold no real standing and this discussion on Wikipedia should be over. This is not a forum. --Al Ameer (talk) 23:33, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: You dont need and its not important for us that you be impressed Elias. Some sources provide you with what they consider themselves, while others provide you with how the Academic world consider them, and others with how history consider them and lastly, the DNA study showing them practically the same as Maronites and Muslims. You seems to have avoided reading all the sources. You will stop this discussion because Wikipedia is not a forum, come back when you have solid evidences.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 01:12, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

text: I thought we made it clear that this isnt a forum !. You need to read this Talk:Antiochian_Greeks#Requested_move_7_June_2015. Its much more than 3 sources (more like 9) and the study is included where samples from Muslims, Maronites and Antioch church followers have been analyzed. Its so disparate to say the word Greek all the time when Greeks dont want you, Academia deny you, DNA show you the same as other Semites, And the majority of your sect dont adhere to this "Greek" thing. As for cherry picking, you haven't provided a single reliable source ! how can I pick from a collection that have no diversity ! anyway, that karolidis thing is still there so you have no point of accusations.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 15:44, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Church History site  

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hi. How about we change it to "from" and is the term Levant archaic and a colonial term or not? JJNito197 (talk) 17:36, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  "America" is also a colonial term. So is "Middle East" since it is an exoname as well, though currently in common practice. Wikipedia is about reflecting well attested facts not changing designations. I agree about "from" as it makes no statement about migrations. PopulationGeneticsLevant (talk) 17:59, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: With the greatest respect to you, your presence on Wikipedia per your contributions is very limited to minor edits. The problem is you are taking the term Levant in the article down to the most narrowest sense, thereby isolating other communities in Egypt, Iraq and Israel. What definition are we agreeing to when we refer to "Levant"? and also residing has connotations of impermanence, hence it looks out of place. Not scientific.  JJNito197 (talk) 18:14, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed Greek from the lead per MOS:LEADLANG JJNito197 (talk) 19:17, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  can you please explain this edit and how your edits could give cause, and be construed, to be acting against Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Quote 'Most Arabic-speaking Christians in the Levant are natives or of Anatolian Armenia, Georgian, or Greek descent.' JJNito197 (talk) 17:26, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Just to add, you know this article is built on weak foundations. Are we talking about a ethno-cultural grouping, ethnic religon, or ethno-religious grouping. Is this article speaking about ethnicity? What is the critera for this article, are we really basing this article off a genetic disorder study? Do we agree that this article has nothing to do with the modern country of Greece and its modern-day language Greek. We are not talking about liturgy. JJNito197 (talk) 17:52, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Do you have anything to do with the newly created account  created 10 minutes ago vandalising this page before I them report for vandalism. I hope it is not a WP:SOCK. JJNito197 (talk) 18:14, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

text: That is not an attack, it is an observation. Now can you please go through those other points with a response or are you not here to improve the article. The user appeared 10 minutes after I reverted you. JJNito197 (talk) 18:44, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is patently a personal attack. PopulationGeneticsLevant (talk) 18:47, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry you feel that way. I thought it was funny how you would tell me about the rules of wikipedia when you watch this page and don't make an effort to improve it. You would rather maintain the orthodoxy (no pun) than make major edits to improve the readabiliy, because the page is confusing. I'm trying to improve it. JJNito197 (talk) 18:54, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  "You watch this page and don't make an effort to improve it" is another personal attack. PopulationGeneticsLevant (talk) 19:03, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  These are observations, not attacks. Can we get back to trying to improve the article? JJNito197 (talk) 19:06, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archaic 

message: Hello, sorry, I'm new to Wiki and just received two warnings, haha. Concerning having the name Antiochian Greek in Greek, why has it been removed and only Arabic remained and why is being reverted back each time, what's the big issue here?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Greco-Levantine (talk • contribs) 18:29, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, thanks for coming to talk. Firstly, do we accept that Antiochian Greek Christians do not speak or write in Greek. What do any of the communities in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria have to do with the country Greece other than in liturgy. Also when using Greek in liturgy, its Koine Greek. I hope you are not confusing those Rûm Greek Christians from Antakya prior to the establisment of Turkey. JJNito197 (talk) 18:36, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

text: That comes under Wikipedia:No original research as you do not have any sources to infer the points you are making, see also NPOV as you have stated you are a member of the community  and please see WP:ADVOCACY; wikipedia isn't the place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Thanks JJNito197 (talk) 18:50, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

text: These are historical events regarding the Church, we are talking about the ethno-religous group who have nothing to do with Greece. What about those in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan who don't recognise Antiochian Greek or run label but identify as Arabs? Do they cease being Antiochian Greek? This article needs to change from speaking on behalf of millions of people to avoid misconception. It currently is speaking for everybody under the banner of Greek Orthodox and Greek Catholic. The article does a good job at showing the hisory and historical events, but starts becoming incoherent when blurring the lines of ethnicity. The fact remains: Antiochian Greek Christians as an ethno-religious group doesn't speak, write or communicate in Greek outside of litury; even then its koine. It's like making all Maronites Assyrians because they both use Syriac. Not cohesive. JJNito197 (talk) 19:27, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Can you even prove the term "Antiochian Greek Christian" actually exists and is in academic/scientific discourse? There is also no sources in the lede. A genetic study can't even prove that they are antiochian greek christians either due to Wikipedia:No original research. That point you made about English people in the USA is exactly my point. Wouldn't it make more sense to use Koine Greek as opposed to Greek anyway? JJNito197 (talk) 23:03, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Can you even prove the term "Antiochian Greek Christian" actually exists and is in academic/scientific discourse? There is also no sources in the lede. A genetic study can't even prove that they are Greek either due to Wikipedia:No original research. Wouldn't it make more sense to use Koine Greek as opposed to Greek anyway? JJNito197 (talk) 23:03, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Provide a source that shows the "Antiochian Greek Christians" actually exist. Wikipedia is about Wikipedia:Reliable sources, as you have none, its hard to see where we go from here. JJNito197 (talk) 23:12, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Please have a read through Wikipedia:No original research and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. The Greek language is not spoken or written by "Antiochian Greek Christians", this is the issue. I have further qualms like If you are going to include personalities and population groups in this articles you need to provide citations that they identify as "Antiochian Greek Christians", and whether the phrase "Antiochian Greek Christian" is even in scientfic or acadmeic discoure, but this is not the point of contention at the moment. JJNito197 (talk) 23:48, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek in the intro.  

message: The removal of one a multicultural group's ancestral language on grounds of MOS:LEADLANG appears to be unjustified. For instance, the page Copts is bilingual. One must not have double standards. PopulationGeneticsLevant (talk) 19:19, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Antiochian Greek Christians do not conversate in Greek. Arabic is their first language. Address this statement. (from my response above) What about those in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan who don't recognise Antiochian Greek or Rum label but identify as Arabs? Do they cease being Antiochian Greek? This article needs to change from speaking on behalf of millions of people to avoid misconception. It currently is speaking for everybody under the banner of Greek Orthodox and Greek Catholic. The article does a good job at showing the hisory and historical events, but starts becoming incoherent when blurring the lines of ethnicity. The fact remains: Antiochian Greek Christians as an ethno-religious group doesn't speak, write or communicate in Greek outside of liturgy; even then its koine. The majority of those included as 'Antiochian Greek Christians' in this article identify as Arabs. JJNito197 (talk) 19:30, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Can you even prove the term "Antiochian Greek Christian" actually exists and is in academic/scientific discourse? There is also no sources in the lede. A genetic study can't even prove that they are Antiochian Greek Christians either due to Wikipedia:No original research. Wouldn't it make more sense to use Koine Greek as opposed to Greek anyway? JJNito197 (talk) 23:03, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Not an argument. Wikipedia is about Wikipedia:Reliable sources, as you have none, its hard to see where we go from here. JJNito197 (talk) 23:12, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Please have a read through Wikipedia:No original research and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. The Greek language is not spoken or written by "Antiochian Greek Christians", this is the issue. I have further qualms like If you are going to include personalities and population groups in this articles you need to provide citations that they identify as "Antiochian Greek Christians", and whether the phrase "Antiochian Greek Christian" is even in scientfic or acadmeic discoure, but this is not the point of contention at the moment. JJNito197 (talk) 23:52, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  The statement above seems to misrepresent the notion of Wikipedia:No original research as no original research is involved here. The Copts no longer speak Coptic yet it is a language associated with them. Russians no longer speak Slavonic, Parsis in India no longer speak Persian, etc. It is well attested that the language of the population under consideration has been Greek for long periods through history and the group was part of the Rumoi Millet. You must provide sources. PopulationGeneticsLevant (talk) 00:25, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  See WP:SYNTHESIS on  that page about reaching conclusions like potential Greek admixture without having a tangible connection to a country across the Med; I'm not denying some communities have said connection,the problem is you are acting like Greek is something used by Christians across the East Med as some sort of second tounge but the connection isn't enough that you can speak for 3.2 million Christians. Pretty much the majority that identify as Arab and speak only Arabic. The article reads fine other than the unsourced populations that you are reaching by WP:SYNTHESIS to refer to "Antiochian Greek Christian" when that isn't the sources; and also the unsourced personalities. JJNito197 (talk) 00:36, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Greek in the Lede 

message: I have now removed all unsourced personalities and removed the unsourced popuation figures due to WP:SYNTHESIS, you cannot make these "Antiochian Greek Christians" if it is not in the sources; except Nicholas Taleb, and I have added citations needed for the lede seeing as their is none. You do not speak for all Christians in the Levant with the "Antiochian Greek" identity. JJNito197 (talk) 11:40, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing unsourced 

message: There is an undefined refname in the infobox. It was removed as part of the recent back and forth.The following:should either be replaced with:or if the source is unsuitable:Thanks ActivelyDisinterested (talk) 22:41, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: - I restored the missing reference, without regard for if it is appropriate or not - anyone should feel free to file another edit request if this has been evaluated and needs another update. — xaosflux Talk 14:38, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks ActivelyDisinterested (talk) 19:20, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cite error 

message: The Antiochian Greeks are considered an Arab Christian group by the great majority of the sources. The Greek ethnic identity is not held by the community. The modern Arabic identity, literature and politics (just think of Arab nationalism) was actually created by members of this community. The two main Antiochian churches (the Melkite Catholic and the Patriarchate of Antioch) hold a strong Arabic identity and in fact eliminated most of their Greek heritage during the last centuries. The only Antiochian Church who hold a small Greek identity is the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, but this identity is limited mostly to the clergy from Greece (actually many members of the Jerusalem Orthodox clergy identify with the Arab Orthodox Movement). So, there is no problem identifying this community as Arab Christian.  P.S: I don't think that the Patriarchate of Jerusalem could be considered an Antiochian church. --Syphax98 (talk) 19:15, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I see you what you mean. However, I think the intro can be more neutral. You seem like a very reasonable and fair person, let's see if we can work on a compromise concerning the intro of this page.
I was thinking of wording the intro something along the lines of:
Antiochian Greek Christians (also known as Antiochian Rūm) are an Eastern Christian group residing in the Levant region.  The majority of its members identify as Arab, and some of the members reject the Arab label, and identify as Greek.
This seems like a reasonable compromise, in my opinion.
Gramaic | Talk 06:17, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, thank you for wanting to find a compromise! But actually i didn't find sources about Antiochian Christians identifying as ethnic Greeks. Many of them identify with the Rum identity and maybe with Bizantine heritage, but not with Greece or ethnic Greeks. The source that you have added (the article from Hellas Journal) doesn't seem to be very reliable and neutral, also taking in consideration WP:WEIGHT. Actually I think that the intro is neutral; the community and the Antiochian churches expose a strong Arab identity (in contrast to Syriac Christians for example) and this is confirmed by the great majority of the sources. A compromise on the intro is possible, but first we need sources to base on. --Syphax98 (talk) 22:52, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arabic and Greek identity