Talk:East Asian religions

message: The citation for how many adherents there are to a to a particular religion are grossly innaccurate and are from a Christian organization. They claim that there are only 4 million Shintoists because of self identification. As anyone who knows, many Asian religions do not require nor ask for self identification within the religious context. However the monotheistic religions typically do. I suggest that the statistic be removed, and have done so. In Japan alone, shinto is the dominant religion (85% or more) it would be more likely that there are 125 million Shintoists, and they are all also Buddhists (Mahayana) at the same time. Buddhism also has no requirement for self identification. In Asia, Japan, Vietnam, Thiland (A Buddhist Kingdom), Burma, India, Thibet, Russia, China, Cambodia, and Indonesia there are at least 1 billion non-self identifying believers who practice every day. This is clearly a Christian biased statistic. Please read the citation web site and review the methodology. It even claims as the source to be innaccurate. Takashi Ueki 17 May 2009.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Takashi Ueki (talk • contribs) 16:53, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Statistics

message: I'm curious, just what exactly moves one to classify Shinto as a 'Taoic' religion? The 道 is there, yes, and there's a degree of overlap between Daoism and Shinto in terms of beliefs and ideology (if we even consider Shinto as having ideology), but I can't say I've ever come across any scholarly materials linking the two. I've certainly never met a Japanese person who would consider themselves a Daoist.
===Response===
 
You may be a bit confused, they are using the term "dao" as a "way" or method of living, a following of a path, rather than the Dao as in the "Dao Te Ching". Daoism and Shintoism are only related in that the cultural influences of 5-12 century China had a very stong cultural influence on all societies around it. Japan was very influenced by the Daoist, Confucianist, and Buddhist influx of the 6th century onward through trade, religious exchange, writing systems, and popular culture. Japan borrowed the influences, but within a relative short period adaped them to Japanese methodologies that we see a great deal of today. I think that the discussion of Asian Religions being a group influenced by the "following of a path" may be accurate, but that does come from Buddhist traditions of central india circa 5th century BCE, as the Buddha walked and described following the "middle way" of belief or non-extreme ends of belief. The "way" - "dao" or "tao" (Chinese), "do" or "to" Japanese is a representation of defining a Religious system as a codified and teachable "method" of getting there from here. In some contexts that may be to nirvana, closer to the gods, more purity and better living, or esoteric knowledge. Takashi Ueki (talk) 17:54, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Shinto?

message: You may be a bit confused, they are using the term "dao" as a "way" or method of living, a following of a path, rather than the Dao as in the "Dao Te Ching". Daoism and Shintoism are only related in that the cultural influences of 5-12 century China had a very stong cultural influence on all societies around it. Japan was very influenced by the Daoist, Confucianist, and Buddhist influx of the 6th century onward through trade, religious exchange, writing systems, and popular culture. Japan borrowed the influences, but within a relative short period adaped them to Japanese methodologies that we see a great deal of today. I think that the discussion of Asian Religions being a group influenced by the "following of a path" may be accurate, but that does come from Buddhist traditions of central india circa 5th century BCE, as the Buddha walked and described following the "middle way" of belief or non-extreme ends of belief. The "way" - "dao" or "tao" (Chinese), "do" or "to" Japanese is a representation of defining a Religious system as a codified and teachable "method" of getting there from here. In some contexts that may be to nirvana, closer to the gods, more purity and better living, or esoteric knowledge. Takashi Ueki (talk) 17:54, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Response

message: Taoists venerate multiple Immortals and Masters quite the same way Catholics venerate multiple Saints as well as Jews and Muslims venerate multiple angels and prophets.  The terms used are different in different languages and cultures but many of the practices are quite similar. Some people who don't know the essence of Taoism will call Taoism polytheistic while call the others monotheistic (It is clearly stated in Tao Teh Ching:"Tao gives birth to One. One gives birth to Two. Two gives birth to Three. Three gives birth to all the myriad things") . Usually Taoists won't mind this since they know it's just a name (" The name that can be named is not the eternal name"). But with the term "polytheism"'s connotations in some cultures, it will likely cause unnecessary misunderstandings for some uninformed and/or narrow-minded people, instead of lead people to seek the essence of a long-lasting tradition.
I think it is more correct to call Taoism "pantheistic" or "panentheistic" or even "nontheistic" depending on what you mean by "theos".
:Traditional Taoism is strongly associated with Chinese traditional religion, which is distinctly polytheistic, but it could certainly be considered in some forms to be animistic. As the article mentions, panentheistic versions, and especially monotheistic versions do exist, especially in the West. This article is an overview of Taoic religion, particularly in its area of dominance. Finer distinctions and debates about categorization are best included in the main article of the religion in question. Vassyana 02:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nature of Taoism

message: I reverted the changes made by User:71.224.215.111. The change from faiths/religion to traditions is POV and unsupported by the sources which clearly state that Taoic religion is religion. The pantheism/panentheism claims are unsupported by the sources which clearly state that traditional Chinese Taoism and chinese folk religion are polytheistic. The comment about Confucian doctrines predating Confucius is out of place and unsourced. Vassyana 17:11, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert 

message: according to the legend of the map, this map does not show taoic religions at all, it has two axis, on one is a spectrum from something purpleish representing abrahamic religions to something yellow representing dharmic religons, in between being all possible relative percentages of one to the others, and on the other is the percentage of religious ppl of such mix in the population. So, there is no distinct light yellow collor shown there - the area indicated to as taoic religions is simply collored as low-concentration dharmic religion area. For the text below the picture to match the actuall picture, someone will first have to create the described map. Till then, I will delete the false claim that the map shows the prevailance of, among others, taoic religions on the world. --83.131.143.101 16:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: False. There are two clear strips of bright yellow, noticeable and clear in China. Reverting appropriately. Vassyana 11:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see you simply reverted my edit about the map supposedly showing taoic religions. But your explanation simply does not hold. Where in that map's legend is bright yellow stated as a separate option? Please explain how you read that legend, as far as I can see, one coordinate shows absolute concentration of the religions covered, the other shows relative concentration of two options - one in its extreme yellow, the other in its extreme purple. Theres simply a lack of a coordinate to cover a third option such as taoic religions, hence theres no possilibity of it being represented on that particular map. Have you contacted the author of the map in question to confirm the claim? I will. --83.131.139.104 10:40, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I was contacted about this map; I did not create it, User:Dbachmann.  But the legend as stated above is clear; it does not illustrate Taoic religions.  I'll put up a map request below. -- Beland 17:09, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: The only missing citation is for this assertion: "However, he appears to be reacting against Confucian doctrine, which potentially suggests the text arose after Confucianism." You can remove it, and when you find a source for it, re-add it. That we I can proceed and do a second GA review. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is looking good, Vassyana. I will do a second review later today. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Second review 

message: I do not know much about the subject, but classifying Confucianism as a form as Taoist religion does not seem to be undisputed, but this nowhere reflected in the article that states as a fact "The three major Taoic faiths are Taoism, Confucianism and Shinto"
:from http://adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
::"Recent figures for the number of "Chinese religionists" include 220 and 225 million. Barrett (World Christian Encyclopedia, 2001) classified 384,806,732 "Chinese folk-religionists," 6,298,597 "Confucianists" and 2,654,514 "Taoists," or about 394 million total.
::In comparative religion texts Confucianism, Taoism and Chinese Buddhism are sometimes addressed in three separate chapters, and sometimes treated in one chapter as "Chinese religion." Even today there are very valid reasons for distinguishing Taoism from Confucianism, and distinguishing both from Chinese Buddhism and non-scriptural Chinese folk religion."
Andries 23:02, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then what does the sentence "The three major Taoic faiths are Taoism, Confucianism and Shinto" mean? (I admit that I do not know much about the subject). Andries 23:51, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Okay, I was a bit confused by the difference between Taoism and Taoist faith. Andries 23:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's OK. Even people who study it in-depth find it a bit confusing. ;o) The prevelence of syncretism in East Asia can make distinguishing things, and even using "proper" terminology, quite difficult. To make it even more complicated, many people in East Asia not only practice syncretic faiths, but openly acknowledge being having multiple Taoic and Dharmic religions at the same time. Confused yet? :oD Vassyana 19:21, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Confucianism as part of Taoism?

message: Is the term "Taoic Religion" the correct term? I have studied the religions of China for over ten years, and I never heard that term. Is there a citation to verify the term? Also I think that "Tao" should be changed to the pinyin "Dao." Chinese-English are using pinyin. It will make it easier to look up Chinese words. Thanks  John196920022001 12:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A foundational work in the grouping of the Tao based religions is Religion in China: Universism a Key to the Study of Taoism and Confucianism, by J. J. M. de Groot. It was originally published in the early 20th century. Another important work is The Comparative Study of Religions of the East (excluding Christianity and Judaism) by Edwin Oliver James. Formal religious studies departments and comparative religion scholars have struggled on a "proper" name for this body of religions. So, it is difficult to find a name that will appease everyone. If you have a better suggestion, I'd welcome it. On the term itself, I will hit the library tomorrow and grab a few references for you. Vassyana 14:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: If there are competing definitions or use of terms, we could simply list these and attribute them to the notable proponents of these terms or definitions. ≈ jossi ≈ 
(talk) 14:57, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added a section discussing the use of terms. I avoided going with a list because of the sheer number of variations and usages of those terms. I hope the section I added is sufficient to cover the topic. If it is lacking, please let me know and I will improve it. Vassyana 14:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

text: As for the use of pinyin, see Tao Te Ching and Laozi, the former does not use pinyin, the latter does. So it is not an established standard that we use pinyin in WP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The good thing is that we can use redirects, such as Dao De Jing and Lao Tzu to accommodate both romanizations. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: See also Daoism-Taoism romanization issue ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:47, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Using Pinyin or Wade-Giles is a matter of preference. As someone who has learned Chinese, I hate Wade-giles because it does not correspond very well actual sound. Pinyin is gradually taking over, and hopefully will kill off the remaining wade-giles transliterations that are still used.Zeus1234 21:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The reason why I proposed using pinyin is because I am learning Chinese, and the dictionaries and glossaries I have all ues Pinyin. The reason why I am learning Chinese is so I can better understand the I Ching (Pinyin Yi Jing). The text the all English translations of the I Ching are based on is a text in the 1700s. I find the Chinese classics  intriguing John196920022001 23:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, everything should be in Pinyin, but some people get very prickly about it (because apparently it is 'a tool' of the communist government).Zeus1234 01:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The good thing, Zeus, is that we can have both romanizations in Wikipedia, by the use of redirects. So those that prefer Pinyin, can find their way around, and those that know better Wade-Giles, can also navigate and search for articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Questions

message: Expanding or creating a similar map to :Image:Abraham Dharma.png which shows Taoic religions would be informative. -- Beland 17:10, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map request 

message: ok, this seems to be just a problem of terminology. We should dump the "Taoic" as an unsourced neologism. The terminology section claims that
"Tao religion", "Taoic tradition" and "Tao-based religion", "Tao-based faiths" are synonymous terms. None of these are sourced, or in apparent use. It also claims  "Far Eastern religion", "East Asian religion" and "Chinese religion" are synonyms. These terms do see some use, and I suppose we should just  this article to Far Eastern religions. --dab (𒁳) 10:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: in the light of the deletion of Dharmic religion in favour of Indian religions, I am moving this article to "East Asian religions". --dab (𒁳) 11:48, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know more about the issue than what I just read herein, but it seems to me your move is correct. However, it's left the article a bit messy in spots; I'm doing a few edits to smooth it out more (and fix up the English along the lines that I prefer). I'll try not to actually change any info, tho (except replacing 'dharmic' with 'Indian')Eaglizard 08:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: move

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thread_title:  External links modified