Talk:Two-lane expressway

message: Original poster User:SuperDude115 requested page move to "undivided expressway". Ken Gallager (talk) 15:21, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not what VFD is for. "Undivided expressway" doesn't cover all super-2s, as some have a barrier. I wish there was a better term, as while super-2 is well used, it seems to be used only by roadgeeks. --SPUI (talk) 01:31, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Super 2's with barriers may be seen as divided highways on road maps; and also, some major freeways may only have brief portions of 1 for each. --SuperDude 03:10, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening comment 

message: I would like the term "Super-4" to have it's own page since more examples and details for it should be put in Wikipedia. --SuperDude 23:57, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Super-4]] 

message: No need to get excited. Plus, you are violating the spirit of wikipedia if you insist on a monopoly.  I am not defacing this article, I am merely suggesting a more logical definition to complement yours.  The definition of super-x varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and I already found a contradictory account to your example.  That mtrfaq is not the "bible" that every transportation authority adheres to.  It admits that there are discrepencies in other terms, notably freeway and expressway.  
Logically, an "undivided 4-lane freeway" makes no logical sense in practical and safety terms because the lack of median barrier reduces the possible speeds.  The problem with your definition of super-x is that you have a fixation on the "undivided" aspect.  In fact, your examples of super-2 and super-4 have not much in common other than "undivided" and "lack of property access"; your examples have entirely different purposes with a super-2 likely to be upgraded in the future to a full freeway while a super-4 is stuck where it is because of a lack of median.  Your super-4 example in that case is more akin to the Highway 7 (York Region) than a potential freeway.  
Say we have a super-2 expressway with at-grade intersections, but enough right-of-way to twin it and replace the at-grade with interchanges and overpasses for a multilane freeway.  Say we twin that super-2 but leave the at-grade intersections for the time being. Does a twinned super-2 stop being a super-x just because it is no longer "undivided"?  Keep in mind that a super-2 that is twinned allows for higher speeds due to the median barrier even if at-grade intersections remain.  Then what if interchanges/overpasses replace all at-grade intersections?  Does it become super again as a superhighway or full freeway?  
Thus, super-4 expressway should apply to a 4 lane divided road with at-grade intersections, but with right-of way to replace them with interchanges. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.38.206.116 (talk) 15:04, 8 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Uhhh...the DEFINITION of Super-4 is that's it's EXACTLY the same as a Super-2, only with four lanes instead of two. There are NO other differences! It might not make logical sense in a long-form highway, which is why there are few of them (the Westmorland Street Bridge in Fredericton is the only local example I can think of in my area). If a super-2 is twinned, it is no longer a super-2. That's always been the definition I've heard. Kirjtc2 04:02, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Finally, someone who knows what they're talking about. Snickerdo 06:04, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  This super-x makes logical sense 

message: Can anyone confirm this stretch is still a super-2? AFAIK, it's been upgraded to a 4 lane divided freeway all the way to the Canadian border. LoveOfFate  talk 03:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Google Maps says you are correct. Follow the map to the right all the way to the Canuck border, and you'll see that it's 4 lane divided. The bridges and other hints clearly show that one side is newer than the other, though. Nova SS 04:16, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I-95 North of Houlton, Maine 

message: I found that US 167 in El Dorado is not a super 2.. Its intersection with AR 7 is controlled, but that's about it. Nova SS 04:41, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  US 167 in El Dorado, AR is not a super 2 

message: Oklahoma:
:As used in this section, a super two-lane highway shall mean any two-lane highway with designated passing lanes, and consisting of paved shoulders not less than eight (8) feet in width.
Ohio:
:A super two-lane highway, wider than a normal two-lane road, is designed to allow for safer, faster travel, because it includes turn lanes and deacceleration lanes, Athens County Commissioner David Ratliff said.
National Freight Transportation Workshop Proceedings:
:The two studies found an alternative called "super two" lane roads that were economically justified. The features of a super-two highway are:
::two paved travel lanes 12- to 15-feet wide
::10-foot paved shoulders, or at least a three-foot strip of asphalt and the balance graveled, with a 33-foot clear zone in rural area
::a design speed of 70-miles per hour except a 60-mph limit in rolling hills
::maximum grade of three degrees
::vertical clearance of at least 16-feet
::bridges that exceed road width by three-feet on each side
::passing lanes every five miles
::bypasses around smaller communities
::turn lane and acceleration lanes at intersections
Semisequicentennial Transportation Conference Proceedings
:Super Two refers to a freeway or controlled access at-grade roadway with a single through lane per direction. The design features of the Super Two work together to maximize the capacity of that single lane. The key defining elements of a Super Two include:
::Full width lanes, paved shoulders, and clear zones
::A center buffer area
::Limited access, with turn lanes for all permitted turns
::Horizontal and vertical curves with high design speeds
::Passing lanes, speed differential, and truck lanes
::Provisions for expansion to freeway or divided roadway
::Proper interchange design for a two-lane freeway
Minnesota:
:Super Two: a two-lane highway with wide shoulders and periodic passing lanes
AASHTO safety?:
:Even though there is a broad range of definitions for the "Super Two" design in both the United States and Europe, most definitions are characterized by wider cross sections. These designs include wider lanes, wider full-strength shoulders, and high-speed alignment with 100-percent passing sight distance. A common design for the United States includes 14-ft travel lanes, 10-ft shoulders, and a design speed of 70 mph. The design may also include alternating passing lanes and sometimes two-way left-turn lanes.
It looks like most official (non-roadgeek) definitions are what's referred to here as a "super-2 expressway". I'm thinking of moving this article to two-lane freeway or undivided freeway, while super two should deal with the actual definition. --SPUI (T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 18:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All those references are only for the USA. So another possible choice could be official classifications of roads in the USA?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.199.96.59 (talk) 20:58, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Official definitions of super-2

message: The article on Ontario highway 16/416 links here. The (former) Ontario 16 highway (Ogdensburg NY - Ottawa ON) did use what is now the northbound 416 freeway from Johnstown to Manotick as a two-lane highway with a posted speed limit of 56mph (90km/h) instead of the 50mph (80km/h) in use on most other two-lane Ontario highways, but is this enough to qualify it as a two-lane freeway or super-two if (before the rest of the 416 was constructed):
* The highway, while routed away from any villages through a freeway-sized and vacant right-of-way, did not have any of its overpasses installed until after it was upgraded to build a 400-series freeway
* Major intersections (such as the crossroads of former highways 16 and 43) did use traffic lights and level crossing
* While traffic lights were rare, all intersections were level crossings. These were either turned into overpasses or dead-ends (where a rural secondary road is terminated just short of the highway) once this was replaced with a freeway.
* There were no businesses, driveways or services of any kind on this stretch of road, as it was intended for later upgrade to limited-access.
So basically an undivided two-lane road with level crossings at all intersections. Sure, it was planned and built to be routed on the path of what was later to be a freeway, but (other than the wide right-of-way and the absence of any buildings at roadside) what makes this a two-lane freeway as opposed to just another provincial highway in the middle of nowhere? --carlb 14:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Highway 416 (Ontario)|Highway 16 (Ontario)]]? 

message: ...is actually a mixture of 4 lanes (southern state park boundary to exit 34A, and exit 34C to northern state park boundary), 3 lanes (2 northbound, 1 southbound) in the southern portion of the Notch, and 2 lanes northward to exit 34C.  No, I don't recall the exact mile marker where the second northbound lane drops out, but it's well north of exit 34A (where the second southbound lane reappears).  The official Parkway (designated by white-on-brown informational signs) includes a long stretch of 4-lane interstate-grade road with a 45 MPH speed limit in the southern section of FNSP. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 18.78.7.125 (talk) 19:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Parkway is a divided highway, which varies from the common definition of a super-2. This segment of I-93 was built as a Super-2 to protect the Old Man of the Mountain from damage or collapse associated with blasting enough rock to build a standard four lane Interstate along Profile Lake (1,200 ft below the Old Man). The Old Man collapsed from natural causes in May 2003. Are there any plans to bring the Franconia Notch Parkway up to full Interstate standards?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sehome Bay (talk • contribs) 13:59, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Franconia Notch Parkway (I-93) 

message: This article and discussion may be suffering from a natural US bias, since most of us haven't had the opportunity to drive across that big lake between the US and Europe.  But it looks like some similar road types exist over there:
* Super two, as defined in Ireland, might look like just a wide two-lane highway here.
* 2+1 road, in Ireland and possibly Denmark, appears to be a road like Kentucky's Daniel Boone Parkway (sorry, Hal Rogers Parkway, because nobody's heard of Daniel Boone :P ) except that it has a tensabarrier (linky?) in the middle and no passing except where the third lane exists.
Both articles have rudimentary sections dealing with US applications.  It seems like for the non-roadgeek community, it would be helpful to merge the articles into an overview of road types that don't quite reach the bar of four-lane-plus, fully-controlled-access.  For us roadgeeks, we badly need our own roadwiki, where we can define every possible permutation of highway type and designation.  If the Trekkies can have their Memory Alpha, why can't we?  --Robertb-dc 22:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Compare and contrast with other countries 

message: No one uses the term two-lane expressway except to describe roads like the old U.S. 395 in Mono County (that is, two lanes of opposing traffic, with a wide separation, but with at-grade intersections).  The term two-lane expressway is NOT used in the way in which it is defined in this article.  The term two-lane freeway is much more common in the published literature. 
I am countering Vegaswikian's extremely poorly thought-out page move in a few days.  --Coolcaesar (talk) 13:27, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, great.  I just tried to move this back and I can't because there's already a redirect there from the first move.  I'll have to draft a proposal to get an admin to do the move.  What a mess.  This is why, as a matter of courtesy, you're supposed to discuss proposed moves FIRST before doing them, so that people like me can point out when a proposed move is just laughably stupid.--Coolcaesar (talk) 22:06, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name should be changed back to two-lane freeway 

message: The photo given does not seem to depict an expressway; perhaps an additional photo would clarify. Bwrs (talk) 20:38, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  additional photo requested 

message: The term is not used in the UK, nor I believe in European languages, so it is pure synth to extrapolate that they exist/do not exist. Dual/single carriageway are UK terms, but they do not have the same associations/definitions used here.  Pincrete (talk) 11:05, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: For the EU, you can have a look at Transport in the European Union which provide info about: motorways, express roads, and 4 lanes roads. That is if the UK is considered as part of the EU. For any other concept (than UK part of the EU), it is up to you.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.199.96.59 (talk) 21:11, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  UK ? 

message: This is for the benefit of people who still don't understand the difference, which was what held up the proposed move back in May 2015.
Go look at California State Route 108 in Sonora, California and U.S. Route 101 near Willits, California on Google Street View.  The Sonora Bypass (completed 2013) is a two-lane expressway.  The Willits Bypass (completed 2016) is mostly a two-lane freeway, except for a very short four-lane section just south of the town.
Notice how both bypasses were built as two lanes wide, one in each direction, with broad shoulders and no center divider.  Both have access control in the sense of no driveways. 
Here is what the Willits Bypass has that the Sonora Bypass does not: 
* Begin Freeway and End Freeway signs at each end.
* User restrictions. (Notice the little signs at the interchanges at each end of Willits saying pedestrians and motor-driven cycles must exit.)
* Freeway Entrance signs on the onramps at interchanges.
* No at-grade intersections. (The Sonora Bypass has a single at-grade intersection with traffic lights with Lime Kiln Road.)
* Higher speed limit, posted at 65 mph.  (The Sonora Bypass doesn't have posted speed limits, meaning the default rural highway speed limit of 55 mph applies.) 
It is really that simple.  And yes, those small differences matter.  User restrictions and no at-grade intersections means the probability is significantly reduced of T-bone side crashes and of striking pedestrians in the roadway at 55 mph.  Which is why the speed limit can be set higher at 65 mph. If you don't understand why that's important, you haven't seen enough car crash scenes or read enough accident reports. --Coolcaesar (talk) 20:10, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's another example from Google Ngram Viewer: Since 2004, two-lane freeway has been the more common term in the literature than two-lane expressway.  The one outlier is during the early 1960s, when two-lane expressway was more common. Reviewing Google Books materials from that period reveals that Caltrans discussed both types of roads in their publications in that timeframe because they were building a lot of both at the time.  They were building a lot of two-lane expressways (basically two-lane highways with no driveways but with a few at-grade intersections) in the hope of upgrading them to two-lane freeways and then later, four-lane freeways. --Coolcaesar (talk) 17:15, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The difference is jurisdictional. Some places do not have any differentiation between a freeway or expressway, some do. For example, in Ontario we use the terms interchangeably, although some cities have their urban freeways termed as "municipal expressways", some are just "expressway" in name, and would be better described as limited-access roads. - Floydian τ ¢ 15:41, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Which is exactly why the majority position in the United States at the federal level and in many states is to draw a clear distinction: a freeway is a controlled-access road and an expressway is a limited-access road.  The point of an expressway is that it has some limited driveways and at-grade intersections, so drivers will expect and deal with cross-traffic and right-in-right-out traffic.  The point of a freeway is that it is nearly always guaranteed to be free from cross-traffic (except for ships at drawbridges).  Unfortunately, the jurisdictions that refused to adopt that clear distinction make life more difficult for all travelers (because then everyone has to either research road terminology thoroughly in advance or drive slowly until they figure out what kind of road they are dealing with).  --Coolcaesar (talk) 14:53, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The difference between a two-lane freeway and a two-lane expressway 

message: I am concerned about the direction this article is taking. Do we really need to list every single instance of a two-lane expressway? It seems US-centric but if we added the rest of the world it would likely be super long. This sort of list also can result in original research. Rschen7754 21:47, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I say we cut the listings, we do not need to list every example. Dough4872 23:14, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Listing every instance?