Talk:Kate Bornstein

message: This article recently was changed to reflect Kate's personal pronoun preference.  It was reverted and the following discussion occurred on a user talk page.  The discussion will follow below.  I will be again changing Kate's pronouns to the pronouns that ze prefers.  If there is documentation required to prove that ze actually uses these pronouns, see the link posted below.  It is, indeed, Kate's.  If PICTURES of the "About the Author" page in hir's books are needed, I can supply the one from My Gender Workbook.  
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I attempted to edit Kate Bornstein's page, but my changes were reverted.  The only changes I made were in the pronouns that refer to hir.  Hir preferred pronouns, as stated in My Gender Workbook, hir bio page on hir website (located here:  http://katebornstein.typepad.com/about.html ), and numerous interviews, are "ze" and "hir," not "she" and "her".  Out of respect to hir gender identity, I feel the pronoun changes should be retained.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.26.223.197 (talk) 03:34, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well this is an encyclopedia. --The Σ talkcontribs 03:36, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I fail to see how your statement is relevant.  "Ze" and "hir" are also included on the "Gender-neutral pronouns" page:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutral_pronouns
*To expand on Σ's comment a bit; this project uses the Wikipedia:Manual of style and its various sub-pages as guidelines for editing.  If you should have concerns with the way things are done I suggest that you engage other editors on the discussion pages of the manual of style.  To unilaterally inject your preference(s) without discussion will only impede your effectiveness here.  Regards Tiderolls 03:42, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

text: I'm not "injecting [my] preference(s)," but using the preferred pronouns of the person hirself (linked to above).  From the Manual of Style's "Grammar" section, "Identity" sub-section:  "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to using the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies when referring to any phase of that person's life."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.26.223.197 (talk) 03:49, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you point me to the discussion you have taken part in that resulted in the pronoun choice you added to the article? Tiderolls 03:52, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Can you inform me where it is stated that a discussion must take place prior to edits? --173.26.223.197 (talk) 04:14, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

text: Also I think "Kate" is a girl's name, so there is no question on whether Kate's "gender might be question". --The Σ talkcontribs 04:06, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you not see the link that was posted?  See: http://katebornstein.typepad.com/about.html 
I'll quote it for you: "Kate was born outside of Fargo, North Dakota in a log cabin ze helped hir parents build. Hir father was a Lutheran minister, and hir mother was Miss Betty Crocker, 1939. Kate has lived in the queer ghettos of Philadelphia, San Francisco, and Seattle. Ze currently lives with hir partner--sex pioneer, writer and performance artist Barbara Carrellas--in New York City, along with their pug, three cats, and turtle." (Emphasis mine.)  I've also contacted Kate hirself about this issue.    --173.26.223.197 (talk) 04:14, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

text: At the risk of redundancy; this page is not the venue for the discussion you appear to desire. 04:33, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I will move the discussion at hand to Kate Bornstein's page.  However, I will be changing the article to reflect Kate's preferred pronouns as this is not an opinion or my "view" - its simply fact stated by Kate hirself.
*What policy? Tiderolls 05:08, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

text: See the document you referred me to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS:IDENTITY#Identity Second bullet point. --173.26.223.197 (talk) 06:06, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: A guideline, not a policy.  Be that as it may, the subject clearly uses a feminine name and refers to herself as "auntie".  I see no need for the unfamiliar and cumbersome pronoun wonkery; if she (or he, at the subject's preference) wants to be a she, cool.  Use the feminine. Tiderolls 06:20, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You are CLEARLY ignoring the pronouns ze refers hirself to.  It doesn't matter if "auntie" is use.  You do not get to decide what pronouns some one uses - which Kate clearly uses gender neutral pronouns.  It doesn't matter if the name is ze "clearly uses a feminine name".  A name does not define the pronouns used by a person.  Just because a pronoun is "wonky" to you does not make it an invalid usage. --173.26.223.197 (talk) 19:05, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Until the subject's preference coincides with Wikipedia's guidelines, I will continue to ignore it.  The guideline directs editors on pronoun usage where the subject's gender choice is unclear.  The subject's gender choice is clear to me.  I cannot see where the pronoun choice you are espousing is relevant.  I've been looking through past discussions on pronoun usage and have yet to find one on point, most likely due to irrelevance.  You probably should gage the community's interest at the MOS discussion page as I previously suggested. Tiderolls 19:33, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Where does the guidelines say that the only acceptable pronouns to use are masculine and feminine?  Kate, despite using the name Kate, does not identify as female as you so think.  Nor male.  Thats why gender neutral pronouns are used.  And that is why the gender neutral pronouns are relevant (beyond the fact that those are the ones Kate uses).  And several places have been notified.  Because this is, indeed, an issue.  Such a thing is not irrelevant, especially when in regards to someone with a prominent influence in the field of Queer Studies. --Sanctusorium (talk) 04:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: An individual that uses a feminine name and refers to themselves as "auntie" doesn't appear to be stting on the fence to me. Tiderolls 05:50, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

text: This is about Kate, but this does not mean she has totalitarian control over every aspect of the article. Furthermore, for those who don't know what "ze, hir, and etc" are, they will think someone wrote the article very badly. And there's still stuff about the MoS. --The Σ talkcontribs 18:33, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Kate may not be controlling this entry, but the MoS still says that we are to use the pronoun that the person identifies with.  A user's ignorance of the pronouns IS, however, irrelevant. A simple link to the page explaining them can fix that. --Sanctusorium (talk) 04:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

text: If I had my own article and called myself "Auspicious Looshpah" would that have to be used throughout the article, because it's my choice of identifying myself the Auspicious Looshpah's self  with it? --The Σ talkcontribs 06:37, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The guideline says that pronoun choice is based on the subject's latest gender self-identification, not the subject's pronoun choice. Tiderolls 05:46, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that takes the prize for the most ridiculous bit of guidelines lawyering I have yet seen on Wikipedia, but let's run with it, shall we?  Even if pronoun preference were somehow completely separate from gender self-identification, as opposed to being a part of it, what is Kate's most recent gender self-identification?  I can answer that for you, being a correspondent of hirs: neither male nor female. That justifies gender neutral pronouns, according to the exact standard you've just rested your feet on. Are you satisfied, or are you going to move the goalposts now? Getheren (talk) 13:50, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely agree, the guidelines clearly support using everyone's preferred gender pronouns, as does common courtesy.  MartinLevine.91 (talk) 14:32, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm italian and I am a frequent user of english language wikipedia. This article is unreadable.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.39.54.4 (talk) 14:13, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronouns 

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I have just modified 3 external links on Kate Bornstein. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110812035308/http://lgbtjewishheroes.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Kaye-Bornsteins-Gender-and-Genre-Bending.pdf to http://lgbtjewishheroes.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Kaye-Bornsteins-Gender-and-Genre-Bending.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110812035308/http://lgbtjewishheroes.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Kaye-Bornsteins-Gender-and-Genre-Bending.pdf to http://lgbtjewishheroes.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Kaye-Bornsteins-Gender-and-Genre-Bending.pdf
*Added  tag to http://gaycitynews.com/articles/2011/06/18/gay_city_news/arts/doc4deff12e07c77397352961.txt
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131004225421/http://www.gendercentre.org.au/resources/polare-archive/archived-articles/gender-outlaw-moves-into-new-territory.htm to http://www.gendercentre.org.au/resources/polare-archive/archived-articles/gender-outlaw-moves-into-new-territory.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Who? And by whom? Valetude (talk) 22:54, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Daughter 

message: Qualifications rather dubious. Has the notability been questioned? Valetude (talk) 22:57, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notability 

message: I'm not a Wikipedia editor or anything, but somehow any discussion of Gender Outlaw has been left out of the text. Given that it's her most well-known work (by far), hopefully this can be corrected?
It's listed under Works, but not discussed in the article text.
Thanks! 71.231.85.24 (talk) 05:28, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Her book Gender Outlaw?