Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lithuania/Conflict resolution

message: The problem I do see, that Poles still think it was not common culture, it was only Polish. And this ridiculous add "modern" before city name simply suggests it was Polish all the time, without any regards to Lithuanian roots of it's name and founders/people who were living there. It's based on few myths, and projection of 19th century romantic literature into 16th or even 17th century without any reflection or need to find a what a true situation was. That is what I do speaking about attitude - it can be clearly seen from edit summaries like "Poland Poland everywhere", and also like google books search like "Lithuanian nationalism", to support dubious teories about official language. Please show me at least one contemorary document, that does state something about "official language" in 16th century? At the time, when only 2 to 5 percent othe people could read, not to mention writing. It's another one projection of nowadays realities into the past, because term "official language" was coined with emergence of nationalism, and that was at the begining of 19th century and was supported by mass education. Although I do have little hope to be heard, because some books like to cite books like "The Polish-Lithuanian state, 1386-1795" to support this idea: and in my opinion the name of the book already clearly shows ignorance of the matter by the author (or at least sources, he wrote his book from).--Lokyz 21:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I share the view that, unfortunately, many Poles tend to think of it as Polish only, and not common culture. I'm afraid this is partially the result of Polish traditional education which, for reasons that I think are obvious, used to be very patriotic, and stress whatever was Polish, as opposed to Russian or German. Unfortunately this got extrapolated to countries like Lithuania or Ukraine as well. I think that you will know what I'm talking about as I believe the Lithuanian education shares a similar (somehow nationalistic) flaw, and for similar reasons: protecting national identity against oppressive neighbours. --Lysytalk 07:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text: It's a simple conclusion that because Polish language was the dominant one among elites in PLC and Poles were more numerous then Lithuanians (or any other minority), many tend to abbreviate PLC as Poland, and use the adjective Polish, when in fact they mean PLC. This further led to another misinterpretation that PLC=Poland of today, which is obviously not true. I have long and often stated that the culture of PLC was the mixture of various cultures: Polish, Lithuanian, Ruthenian, Jewish, German, Oriental (Ottoman), to name just a few (as often, Kaczmarski was just right), as well as changed links from Poland/Polish to PLC on Wikipedia where appopriate. Nonetheless I think it could be safe to argue that because of above factors, and others (placement of the capital, etc.) Polish culture both pre-PLC and post-PLC had and has the most common with the PLC culture (hence, polonization) - but again, nobody is denying it was signifcantly influenced by others, cultural diffusion was strong going both ways, and Lithuanians contributed much to the PLC. Nobody is also denying that Lithuanian culture (or state) existed before the PLC and that modern Lihuanian culture traces its roots far into the past. Further, Lokyz you are correct that the idea of an 'official language' can be controversial, but going back to square one: 1) most of contemporary publications in PLC were in Latin and/or Polish (although many peasants spoke R. or L., they couldn't read, and certainly didn't write anything). 2) Most of English publication use Polish names. Hence having Polish names for the historicial locations or people is more appopriate then not. Of course I fully support usage of Lithuanian names for titles of articles about places, in text related to modern contexts (i.e. 19th century forward), as well as pre-polonization ones, but I cannot see much reason in arguing that during PLC times Lithuanian names were more popular then Polish (which adjective, btw, I use in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth context, not modern Polish). Taking those things into consideration, please understand nobody is devaluing Lithuanian culture, but Polish names should be used in lead of articles about places that are now in Lithuania, but in the past were in PLC (and yes, before that, in GDL).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I mostly agree with what you write, Piotrus. One remark, however. You write that you "cannot see much reason in arguing that during PLC times Lithuanian names were more popular then Polish". It seems to me that both Polish and Lithuanian names were in use, just by different groups. While szlachta would use a Polish name, the peasants would use Lithuanian to call the same place. Now, which is "more popular" ? We cannot really prove how widespread was the use of Lithuanian names, because most of the documents would use Polish. But we can reasonably assume that the peasants were more numerous than Polonized szlachta. The question would be of course how many of the peasants got Polonized as well. But do we need to answer it and speculate further ? Isn't it obvious to assume that both Polish and Lithuanian names were in use and none of the was "better" (more "official" or more "original") than the other ? --Lysytalk 07:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Common culture/language ?

message: Some more Lithuanian eyes are needed on the Glitiškės article. Of course it is one of the most difficult articles, together with Dubingiai. There are two problems there:
1. one of the users insist on including a controversial statement on Dubingiai in Glitiškės article. IMHO this is already difficult enough in Dubingiai (where this information belongs) and I reverted it as it seems to be kind of ruthless POV pushing.
2. Could someone take a look at http://www.xxiamzius.lt/numeriai/2004/08/18/zvil_01.html and verify if this is a reliable, neutral source that adequately supports the sentence in question ? 
I think a discussion is missing at Glitiškės. --Lysytalk 11:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interestingly, few month ago Legionas/Sigitas noted himself that XXIAmzius is "XXI amzius has weakest journalists and I will avoid using its publications when possible".-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  14:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help needed 

message: Instead of "fixing a flat tire", as Dan put it, I invite you to contribute to the proposed to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). Frankly, please do consider this. It is not a "Polish chauvinistic" proposal, and great care had been taken to have editors with different POVs and from different countries reach a mutually acceptable guideline there. It has been very difficult and required a lot of care to have the many contributors there (that normally more often fought each other on the articles' POVs) identify themselves with the proposal. I know working on the guideline with a set objective is more demanding than our free chat here, but once again, I do strongly suggest to take a look there, and maybe you'd be able to improve it. Better do it now, while it's in proposal phase and not a policy yet. Some of the ideas raised here, have already filtered it out to the proposal discussion. However, I think only one Lithuanian editor, Dirgela, has so far looked at it. More input and positive contribution would be helpful. --Lysytalk 15:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As much as I am a proponent for some type of consistency on WP, I am not for a hard and unflexible mentality (remnants of totalitarianism and such a mind set), in the "name game". This argument of, look Naples has several names in the lead so, why shouldn't the Polish name for Kiev, Munich, or Ukmerge, be allowed and included? The short answer is that there are other "political" and emotional issues involved (not only from LT and PL editors, but from all sides), that's why. People are not stupid, if they need to know the Polish name for Munich, it's only a mouse click away on the link to Polish Wikipedia. Dr. Dan 13:28, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dr. Dan, have you actually read the proposal ? --Lysytalk 13:57, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Dr. Dan 02:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Naming conventions (geographic names)

message: I have decided just to simply fuck it, and tell the nasty and ugly truth: the only solution out of this nonsense is for someone to quit. So let me be the first. 
I thank Lysy for his real mediation efforts. I just can hope you will not get eaten alive. Piotrus, stop telling every single editor to assume good faith, quit making personal attacks. It's thoroughly annoying. Hali, good luck on further destroying the Lithuanian community on WP. Dan, you will get blocked one day. M.K, grow up (but I guess that's too much to ask for a guy). Juraune, good luck among these big shots blinded by testosterone rage. Lokyz, less typos and less categories. Linas, I would say be more active, but there is no use. 
And in case you wonder why... because I cannot live with such nonsense. Every Lithuanian is destined to have a problem with Halibutt, because his mission here is not to allow anything Lithuanian on WP (no Lithuanian toponyms for Vilnius or Rumsiskes, no Lithuanian ancestry for Gucevicius, no Lithuanian poets in Anyksciu silelis, no Lithuanians in Central Lithuania). I tried to ignore, work around, argue, and plead. Nothing worked, no one budged an inch. And yes, I do have the balls to say: I DO have a problem with Halibutt. But I do not have the will to fight him, so let me leave. Good night, everyone. Renata 23:36, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lysy, this was not an insinuation but a valid hyperbole. Yes a hyperbole but yes valid. What stuns me though, is dead silence to this news on account of Piotrus and Halibutt, especially since the latter had guts to accuse Ghirla in driving out editors, giving  a renown ultra-nationalist troll as an example of the user Ghirla allegedly pushed out. While in en-wiki Rydel built himself a reputation of a fierce revert warrior, fierce BE-nationalist (a very rare breed for this friendly nation) and a promoter of Lacinka into the article's titles to replace the titles based of the normative Belarusian, in Belarusian Wikipedia Rydel is a part of the fringe group that tries to force non-normative version of Belarusian language causing people to leave in great numbers (they had to organize another Belarusian Wikipedia that perhaps already outnumbered the Rydel's one). Totally bizarre accusation that Ghirla has anything to do with that pales compared to the clear message on who pushed out Renata, the top quality editor, an admin too. Now we see not a refactoring of the slander, but a total lack of any response. Nice. --Irpen 01:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And try to solve it quickly, because so notable contributor as Renata made it plain, that you are the main problem of her resignation. Very “good” job, Hailibutt... M.K. 17:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

text: And this is not a personal attack, Juraune? In Polish we have a saying: 'laugh or cry', when we see such an 'argument'. In the end, I believe that Halibutt will ignore you 'advice' and go back to creating an encyclopedia, something he has considerable experience in - unlike you. I find it amusing how a user with few hundred edits tries to criticize a user with few tens of thusands, and a creator of many a GA or FA. The facts speak for themselves. And with this I think I will remove this page from my watchlist; as I wrote above, this mediation attempt has failed, and I have no wish to further waste my time in this rapidly deteriorating environment.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The truth: as ugly as it gets

message: Once again I'll try to show some good will. I hereby apologize anyone who found that offensive for not knowing a single word of Lithuanian. I'm sorry, but I never had a chance to learn the proper conjunction in Lithuanian and did not know what proper suffixes to add in cases like this one. If there is anything else I should apologize for - just let me know, I'll try to start a new chapter and forget all the past. 
In response, do I deserve some apology for slandering my good name and accusing me of anti-Lithuanian sentiments and other fancy things? I asked for any diff or link to support those accusations, but to no avail. So perhaps the good way would be to apologize, withdraw those absurd accusations intended solely to damage my reputation and... try to go on? //Halibutt 08:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, Lysy. I extended my hand once again, but I will not apologize for what I didn't do. While my comment might have been ironic, it was by no means a mockery of Lithuanian language. I don't speak Lithuanian and that's all. If one -as more or less adds some strange new meaning to a Lithuanian or non-Lithuanian name in Lithuanian - then it was certainly not my intention. However, I wonder how come not knowing Lithuanian is equal to xenophobia. This is yet another piece of slander and yet another offence I'd have to bear. Sorry, but this has been going on for long enough. //Halibutt 18:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Now it is due to irony, last time it was due to "did not know" M.K. 08:11, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Quite often I hear people commenting that Polish language forgot its vowels and that Polish words sounds like 'brzgrzszcz' or such. I never took offence at such comments. While I'd avoid making such comments about other language unless I am sure the other person knows I am joking, accusing the person who made such joke of trolling/xenophobia/attempting to destroy entire cultures [sic!] is a responce equal to nuking the person who glared at you. The disproporionate responce is quite obvious, I feel. That said, Halibutt should avoid such jokes and apologize for the one he made - which he did. To which the other side reacted with further bad faith accusations...-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:56, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here we go with apologetics again. "and apologize for the one he made - which he did". Where? Could you point finger to exact place where it happened, because frankly I don't see it. I see two apologies for not knowing Lithuanian language. All Wiki users not knowing Lithuanian language should come to this talk page and apologize for it. That is what Lithuanian editors want, you have guessed it right, as usual.Encyclopaedia Editing Dude 07:50, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good will 

message: I created an entry for you at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Directory/History_and_society#Ethnic_conflict_resolution_projects. Since there hasn't been any activity recently I entered you as Active=no; please change as appropriate. I hope that if you are indeed inactive that it's a sign that conflicts have calmed down. — Sebastian 07:21, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Entry in WikiProject directory