Talk:La Salle College High School/Archive 1

message: There was some bias in the recent edits. Wikipedia is not supposed to offer opinions on the matter, like "Mr. Marchese was an excellent communicator" or "the students actions were appalling."
--Brett 01:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More on "Recent Events" 

message: (this disclaimer was taken from the main page and placed here by User:Looper5920, he however did not write it)
Students from La Salle have reportedly been threatened with expulsion for making additions to this very page. Said additions were seen by Mr. Christopher M. Carabello as possibly portraying a negative aspect of the school to prospective students. Mr. Carabello's actions have created somewhat of a controversy at La Salle. His ban on "unauthorized" edits to this page by students also raises questions about Wikipedia in general and, specifically, the validity of this entry. Is this page supposed to be an encylopedia article which accuratly reflects the nature the school or simply an advertisment for La Salle? Should we let politicians, or celebrities, author their own entries, forbidding "unauthorized" edits by fans or detractors? Would a self-authored page live up to Wikipedia's accuracy standards? These are all important questions. For now, it should be noted to all reading this page that the majority of the presented content was authored, requested, or inspected by La Salle's Director of Communications and Public Relations, Mr. Christoper M. Carabello. Mr. Carabello has removed any information he did not approve of and has forbidden further edits that do not meet his approval. 
Mr Carabello has the right to edit like anyone else as long as he follows the Wikipedia guidelines.  If he starts making changes to the page that others as a whole do not agree with then he will be referred to an administrator.  For the record I am not a LaSalle student or Alumni just someone who edits articles on Philadelphia Catholic High Schools. --Looper5920 21:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  DISCLAIMER 

message: The existence of this article is causing a bit of a stir at the school.
Personally as a senior at LaSalle I do find the whole "recent events" section to be rather pointless. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia; these are minor, silly grievances that students would have at any typical school, it's worded like a section on human rights in an article on a country or something, which has nothing to do with silly little things like the disallowance of wearing golf shirts. Imagine if every local high school's article had a section like this! This would be fine content for the school newspaper, or a student wiki, or something along those lines; not an encyclopedia. I suggest it be removed on these grounds.
Also, while the school technically has no right to control what students write on here, being a private school they do have the right to discipline students in-school for harming the school's reputation, for the same reasons you could get suspended/expelled if you committed a crime or the like. Additionally if the edits were performed in school, they do directly go against the school network's AUP, which is even more serious; however as I said they need not have been performed in school for disciplinary action to result. -Francis
Agreed.  Go ahead and remove them.  If people want to put them back then they can argue for it on this page.  If the changes were done on a school computer then they could do something to you but they cannot get you for anything done in the privacy of your home.--Looper5920 03:23, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy 

message: Is this a quotation?  If so, it should be in inverted commas. --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 11:17, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. --James S. 02:25, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Mission statement" 

message: You ask Brett to verify all of this, but he experianced it all first hand. If his word is not good enough, then I will back him up on this. Everything he has posted is true, I go to school with him and can verify this. Brett is the first person to actually transcribe this, so it is impossible to get a written source.(Danf 00:28, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verification 

message: I give up. I can't keep up with the constant reverts you all are pulling. I honestly believe you are making a mistake, but I can't take this. I can't devote any more time to this, I have schoolwork to catch up on. Massacre this site as you have been, I won't stop you. 68.42.26.238 01:40, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Brian, I think he said he doesn't get it in the last section already. Could you explain to him please? I need sleep <looks very sleepy indeed> Kim Bruning 04:04, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Brett, Dan, or whoever our anon IP editor is: It's just not in Wikipedia's mission to be a primary source or publisher; we collect, verify, and collate information from other sources (be they Internet, media, books, journals, etc), and then put it together in a usable format (articles). Believe it or not, this is the same basic procedure that all encyclopaedias ascribe to; that's why you keep running into the original research brick wall. All pages are held to this standard, and someone noticed this page and the edits to it (probably because of the school's concern over their page, I don't know as I just saw this today). If it gets published on the school's website or in the school's paper/yearbook/press release/etc, you might be able to make a case for arguing some of that information into the article, but it can't just include wholesale student opinion. Or teacher opinion, or janitor, for that matter! I hope that helps... no one is trying to drive you off, just educate you in how things work and why they don't appear to be working here. -- nae'blis (talk) 05:07, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whatever 

message: This is a profoundly interesting situation.  I suggest that you approach the education/community/news editor of your local paper asking for a reporter to be assigned to write a story about the fact that the article's creator was threatened by the administration with sanctions if the article became inaccurate. Then there would certainly be no problem including the fact.  My opinion is that in the absence of a dispute (is anyone disputing the reality of the administration's threat?) there are already enough secondary sources here to justify inclusion of the situation in the main article. Some apparently disagree, so I recommend getting a news report published.  You also might want to make sure that the administration understands that anyone can edit Wikipedia, at any time. They should also be given a copy of the disclaimers linked at the bottom of each page. --James S. 19:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recommendation to students 

message: I have copyedited and replaced the recently removed unsourced section, and blanked it here, all to prevent libel concerns. --James S. 01:02, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section removed as unsourced -- double standard 

message: Can any of you get a photo similar to this one from your own camera and upload it?  The entry-way sign is a poor representation of the school. --James S. 02:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo requested 

message: It was pulled directly from lschs.org and may contain bias.  I would appreciate it if it could be edited.
Matt White 01:36, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed it because the source page showed a copyright restriction; please replace it (and edit it yourself!) if you have permission. --James S. 02:19, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Replacing in progress. --James S. 03:47, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: History Section Needs Editing

message: So, maybe it's because I'm relatively new to Wikipedia.
But I never saw any notice of this article becoming protected, nor could I locate it in the discussion or histories.
I had been previously posting under the IP address of 68.42.26.238, and at first I thought it was because I didn't have an account. But with an account, I still can't edit, and I would like to know why, and when [if?] I can again.
My intention right now is to remove the "Gay couples at prom" from the infobox, because while I think that should be included somewhere on the page, the way it is presented now is inappropriate and vaguely sarcastic.
Thanks for any clarifications on this. --Tim 02:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I got it out, Tim. Jimbo (not THE Jimbo) 02:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ¿Protected? 

message: I don't think that it should mention gay couples [not] being allowed at the prom in the sidebar.  This is for basic information about the school, not for something like that.  I have no opposition to it being later in the article, if verified, but the sidebar is for the general information about the school, not its sexual orientation.  Matt White 02:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sidebar?

message: Are transcript grades reported on a scale of 4 or 5?  That should go in the "Grading scale" section, too. 
It looks like as soon as we can find a few paragraphs on the faculty, this will be up to the structure specs.  As soon as someone sources those controversies, it will be ready for peer review. --James S. 07:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Grading scale is in, but may need rewording. Jimbo (not THE Jimbo) 21:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The text is fine, but about the percentage table:  That can't actually be a school policy, can it?  What if a teacher gave a bunch of hard tests and found out the mean score was 40%?  Would almost everyone be forced to flunk?  Unless teachers are never allowed to grade on a curve (and I've heard of stranger things), then the table should be marked "advisory only."  Since there is supposed to be a campaign against grade inflation, can you get any printed material from the office on this subject? --James S. 23:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose it is just a guideline, but it's what most teachers adhere to unless other concerns arise. Personally, I never head about the campaign against grade inflation except from here, so I don't even know if that's actually happening. Jimbo (not THE Jimbo) 00:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grading scale 

message: How, exactly, is the Recent controversies messagebox "disrupting Wikipedia to make a point?" --James S. 10:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The  templates are for articles or sections that contain material in need of up-dating.  This article doesn't fit that description; creating a section heading simply in order to place an up-date message is merely to make public the dispute about the material.  Disputes like that are for Talk pages, not for articles. --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 20:00, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

text: The same goes for , though; what does that mean at the top of an empty section?  What isn't verified? --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 23:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mel's removal of compromise messagebox 

message: In the sidebar, it says that tuiton is $13,000 USD.  Should we really put next year's tuition or this year's tuition, which is about $11,700-11,900?  Just a basic question of procedure... Matt White 23:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's safe to say that anyone getting tuition information fro Wikipedia is going to be interested in next year's, but I'll mark the date. --James S. 23:55, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh oh. You put "'06-7", with which Mel will probably not be happy. Jimbo (not THE Jimbo) 00:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then I invite him to change it without widening the field into a line break.  I also invite him, or anyone, to find something to say about the faculty.  How can a school with so many notable alumni have no teachers who appear in Google? I've only tried a semi-random sample of about 30 from the directory so far, but still.  Isn't there something if not on the website then in a brochure you might have lying around that says something about just a few people on the faculty? --James S. 02:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The closest thing we have to that is the faculty and staff directories on the school website.  A few of the teachers have their own web pages, but the majority do not, I believe.  Matt White 20:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know, none of our teachers are notable at all outside of the La Salle community. I didn't know there was a correlation between notable alumni and notable faculty. I think you could just write off that section Tim 16:22, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More Sidebar stuff

message: This is the wrong forum for this, but with that said, something needs to be said about this blatanly wrong and unfactual statement
:-- "Feedback about content should, in the first instance, be raised on the discussion pages of those articles."
I like giving my opinion on things, so here it is. Yeah, I realize that Wikipedia is a private website completely outside the control of any administrator at La Salle (except as prescribed in the Wikipedia terms of service), but at the same time, there's really nothing we can do about them and their policies. Legally there is no recourse for students at La Salle who don't want to be subject to disciplinary actions that result from their own actions. Quite simply, it's a matter of, if you don't like it, that's your problem. If the administration doesn't want editors of the Wikipedia website on La Salle to say anything derogatory toward La Salle (whether it is fact or fiction is completely irrelevant), then the administration can get its way. Cries for action, rabblerousing, whatever, it's ridiculous.
# While there is no specific legal precedent for inciting legal action against the administration, if the student in question was to be expelled, there would certainly be a large amount of public pressure and media scrutinization of the administration. In the end, they are concerned about donations and funding, and if a major associate did not agree with the school, it is more than likely they would concede.
# There may actually be legal recourse, for the same reason you can’t fire someone because you don’t like them.
# Fact-Fiction is a critical issue, especially since the administration has indicated they are more concerned with false statements than valid information being placed on the website.
## Fact-Fiction is not a critical issue since the La Salle administration has indicated that they will not tolerate any information, true or false, which does not show La Salle in its most positive light
# The cries seem to be working, as a majority of the senior class supports Brett and the Wikipedia.
Should I be able to say whatever I want about La Salle? Ideally, yes, but practically no. La Salle has no guarantee of free speech. Nobody ever said that I could say whatever about the school. The code of conduct specifically says that La Salle students will act in accordance with how they should act, and that would be decided by the dean of students.
# No, that’s not what it says, it says that conduct that “does not reflect positively on the school” will be punished accordingly. With that said, it requires speculation, which the administration cannot make legally, in order to determine if that conduct is negative. This is under the “conduct in public places” category of the handbook. This is more relevant when a student gets a DUI, because that shows a student is violating the law. In this case, noting that La Salle will not allow homosexual students to attend a dance is a different ballgame
##"La Salle College High School, a private, Catholic, independent school conducted by the Christian Brothers, reserves the right to review any student's conduct in an individual instance or over any period of time to determine whether said conduct is poor, unacceptable or does not contribute to the school in a positive manner. Said determination will be made at the sole discretion of the administration. Upon the making of any such determination, the administration reserves discretion to suspend, place on disciplinary probation, expel or carry out any other disciplinary action it deems appropriate." That covers a plethora of behavior. Including homosexual behavior. They're not saying kids can't be gay, just that they can't bring partners to school sponsored dances as dates.
Does this affect anybody, honestly? Does this website bear so much power that it can cause a student to be expelled? Seriously guys, if you're going to suspend or expell a kid for writing something on a website, you might as well give kids detention for having their shoes untied. And students, if the administration is going to overreact, why are you giving them the time of day? There are easy ways to get around the Wikipedia issue. How many free web hosting sites are there? They're anonymous, and we have enough web techs at La Salle to be able to create a website that the public can edit. If it's that important to you, get a GeoCities site and have a ball. As for other ideas, just step back for a minute. This is just a website. In ten years, nobody is going to care about it. Unless we do something monumental (singlehandedly bring La Salle a football championship or become governor or something along those lines), nobody is going to know who we are or were ten, fifteen, twenty years down the road. We'll have moved on, been past the whole adolescence thing, and learned to chill out about things that are no big deal.
For the prom thing, once again, it shouldn't be much of an issue. The old administration didn't care too much about teachers giving students free periods, about cutting classes, about being late, or about dress code violations. This administration is tougher on free periods, gives five detentions for cutting class, gives a dention for five latenesses, and is strict about the dress code. That all started from day one. As a more conservative administration, how could we expect them to allow homosexual couples to go to a prom? Besides, for crying out loud, a main premise of Catholicism is that it is morally wrong to act on homosexual urges. This administration is just doing what a good Catholic administration should do.
# No, you don’t understand the issue. With the other stuff (free periods, class cuts, etc.) Assaf was just looking the other way, not violating school policy. Marchese never changed school policy in regards to those issues, rather he just enforced an already existing policy.
## No, you don't understand what I'm saying. Did you actually read it? Saying that the old administration "didn't care too much" is the same as saying that it "looked the other way." 
# But, he changed policy when he said (said student) could not attend the prom with another guy. This is a shift from the status quo, wheras it used to permit this action, it now forbids the action. Do you understand the difference between not enforcing policy and changing policy.
## Is there a written policy about homosexuals attending school sponsored dances? You just said yourself that the old administration "looked the other way" with regards to certain issues. They never wrote anything into the code of conduct that allowed homosexuals to bring partners to proms. So in the same way that they chose not to care about teachers giving free periods, they also did not care about homosexuals bring partners to proms. The new administration decided to both implement preexisting policies as well as unravel a more conservative approach to homosexuality.
# No one ever said this was a bad thing, this is a major misconception about the initial student’s attempt at the Wikipedia. They were just pointing out facts, rather than calling for speculation or endorsing an opinion.
## I know. I never said he was calling for speculation or endorsing an opinion. I know that he was writing facts down and that La Salle's administration objected to facts that weren't very positive.
The caf' boycott... there was no problem in communication. It was well organized. But what Tim said is right. And also, the boycott did result in combo meals being offered, which showed that students' efforts were not totally in vain (though even reduced prices were higher than original prices). It's unfortunate that everyone is harping on the negatives about this new administration too. Yeah, they might be stricter and they may be restricting some of our generally accepted freedoms, but look at what they're doing to help out La Salle as an institution. Before Christmas, they gave every single student a box of hard candy. Okay, so some kids were jerks and scoffed at the show of kindness, but I saw it as a truly kind gesture. They knew they couldn't possibly wish everyone a merry Christmas, and doing so on WEXP is very impersonal, but giving a tangible gift for students to enjoy is a subtle little reminder of La Sallian and Christian values. Students, can you honestly say that you saw that candy as ridiculous? As dumb? As anything other than kind? Did that candy make you smile or frown?
# Oh boy, that candy, yea that makes them suddenly redeem themselves. They gave out fucking candy. It was donated. And you also call for speculation and opinion in determining that the things mentioned were “negative factors.” Some would advocate, as you do, that his changes were actually positive. There was no endorsal of opinion or anything like that with the original edits
## I never said there was anything like that with the original edits. That's why I didn't want to edit the main page. I just wanted to add an opinion to the discussion page. There's no need to use foul language here... Now, I wasn't addressing what I saw on the main page. I was addressing things that I've seen on the discussion page. You cannot possibly think that people are not portraying the administration negatively (I agree with some of what they're saying too. I don't want block scheduling, and I think caf' prices are way too high). We are bitter because the administration is censoring us. Of course we're going to portray them negatively on a discussion page. And, may I ask, what is wrong with giving out candy to the student body? Who cares if it redeems them? I'm not saying that giving out candy makes censorship and what not justified. I'm just saying that it was a nice gesture. I mean come on, your statement is a perfect example of what I was saying.
About changes to policy regarding academic standards... that's a good thing. Face it, La Salle is seen as a "country club" by many people. And, in the past, those people had darn good reason. But this administration is going to great lengths to make the curriculum more rigorous. Next year, all juniors are going to have a semester of rhetoric, since the English department believes that rhetoric is instrumental to success later in life. Courses are being reevaluated to improve their quality. AP teachers have been told to teach new information AFTER the AP test in May, another new policy.
# Funny how the juniors are spending some much time doing something this administration is clearly good at, in convincing people like you, that there are good things. The new admins discourse, from the candy to his conversation with classes, is clearly a show of rhetoric, no actual defense of policy issues. Especially on the wikipedia issue. Most people are seeing through that. Rhetoric sucks. 
## Talk about an incoherent response? I'm rather unsure of what you're trying to say. 
# On AP classes. They are supposed to teach to a test, the final exam of which is in mid-MAY! Why, if the final exam is over, does anything new need to be taught after that? That’s not what an ap class is about. Its for getting college credit. Granted, maybe there is an argument for AP classes that substitue regular classes (e.g. AP English), but something like AP Computer Science, where there is no regular alternative, does not need a final exam.
## That's just wrong. The problem with AP classes is that they teach to a test. The purpose of AP classes is to teach a college level course in a high school classroom. The test is a way of proving that teachers have taught what they had to teach. Students who enroll in AP classes should have the desire to learn which doesn't just go away after the AP test. When we have two full weeks of classes after the AP test, we have enough time to learn more. Most AP classes substitute regular classes. AP English and history substitute regular classes; AP math is designed for after students finish the traditional college preparatory math curriculum; AP science is an extension of what we already had freshman, sophomore, or junior years; AP Language is also an extension of what we had before. AP computer science is the ONLY AP class at La Salle which is not what you call a substitute for regular classes.
Dress code? Come on now, it isn't that hard to have your tie at your collar and your shirt tucked in. Everyone can afford to have at least ONE pair of school shoes, and if they can't, there are a hundred others who could easily afford to give up a pair of shoes... you don't need to wear boots.
# No one is criticizing it. We are just pointing out changes. And this year it’s the enforcement of it. 
## You are not a student at La Salle, so you do not know about what is talked about in school. And yes, kids do criticize it.
Really, I just think it's a decent idea to chill the heck out. Administration: This article isn't hurting anybody, nor has it ever been. Students: If the administration wants to be the way everyone claims they are, then that's tough. You agreed to accept the administration and all its mandates when you enrolled at La Salle.
... does my writing style reveal my identity?
1. Sign your comments
:a) No, I just don't feel like it. If you want to figure me out by IP address, be my guest. I like the game of anonymity.
2. This is not the place for your editorial rantings
:a) Yes, it is.
--djrobgordon 06:16, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Throwing in a bit of an opinion here 

message: First, please sign your comments with four tildes. It's simply a sign of respect to everyone on Wikipedia, and that you stand behind your comments. 
I've read this with a lot of interest, as someone who was once a teenager (I think) and who also spent some time as an student affairs administrator.  
As far as whether informing the public and asking questions about issues at the school is "ridiculous," or whether it will be relevant - it is, and it will be. The school may enjoy certain privileges due to its tax status, so it would certainly interest neighbors and other taxpayers; it's part of a nationwide network of schools, so their handling will certainly interest students, staff and parents affliated there...  let's not forget that this also reflects on Catholic schools, many of which are struggling to stay open. 
The comment that this will "all be forgotten" later on, ten to fifteen years later, is not strictly true. There are lots of court cases regarding some 15 year old who disagreed with his or her school. Run a search on New Jersey v. T.L.O. for a landmark search and seizure case which affects teenagers across the country. I was also surprised by the case involving a Oklahoman Wiccan who was accused of "hexing" a teacher, supposedly making the teacher ill, and suspended for 15 days, contra to Dettmer v Landon. I'm not sure of the current status of that case, but the ruling would not just affect teenagers, it would probably affect all practitioners of other religions. 
If writing about this topic yourself might get you in trouble, you could ask other participants in Wikipedia to edit and source a factual, NPOV version of events occuring. The school has no control over what free adults write about events, and cannot expect one student to "guard" it for the remainder of the year. Students' right to free speech may be abridged while they are attending a private school, but that certainly doesn't KO everyone else's free speech rights. Their parents can comment. (I believe Harper Valley P.T.A. helped set the standard for kids not being held accountable for their parents. grin) A public school student could safely write about this issue.
In fact, why stop there? If you wrote this in order to inform people, then ask someone in the local media to cover this from a factual, objective standpoint. (If you need help finding this sort of person, just email me.) Noirdame 17:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments from an outsider