Talk:Elvera Sanchez

message: Elevera Sanchez was not Cuban. Sammy once quote in his autobiography that his mother was Puerto Rican. Hence, this book is reportedly hearsay and it has never been authorized or verified for facts. Sammy made numerous comments such as one when he guest starred on the popular sitcom the "Jeffersons" where he mention is Puerto Rican heritage in a quote. Therefore, if the man went to the grave acknowledging his Puerto Rican ancestry and his estate can't certify that the author's claims are in fact authentic, then it is nothing but hearsay. I have heard many times of actress Vanna White being Puerto Rican, however none of it has been verified by Vanna, the claimant, etc.. Therefore it is heeresay and shall remain so. If the author of thebook can provide proof of a birth certificate than so be it, but in the early 1900's Puerto Ricans were the main exodus to New York due to the fact of the Jones-Shafroth Act of 1917. Cubans who migrated to the United States after the end of the Spanish American War had to go through immigration since their island was not treated as a U.S. territory but a protectorate for 4 years until Cuba achieved independence in 1902. Those who immigrated to the United 'States went to Ybor City, Florida. Cubans began to appear in masses in the years preceding and following the Cuban Revolution of 1959 when they went to Union City, New Jersey to work in the numerous textile industries once found there. I believe the author's claims are non-sense. [user: XLR8TION]
'ticle should be reverted. Show me a reference. Until then it is nothing but hear-say.[user: XLR8TION]
:It is not hear say, the book is very thoroughly researched with interviews with Davis' own family. There is no reason to doubt its veracity. Arniep 15:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Elvera was not actually born in Cuba, nshe was born in New York City to the children of Cuban immigrants as is explained in the article. Arniep 18:46, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: So are you saying that this author is lieing, and that he has not spoken to Davis relatives at all? Don't you think they might have complained in the media by now? Arniep 12:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

text: The author spoke to his mother's blood relatives who said they were Cuban Americans. I'm not sure what else can be said to convince you. Arniep 18:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. See Wikipedia:Verifiability. That an book was published that claims he is of Cuban descent is verifiable and relevant. Stating it as fact would violate NPOV, but stating that the book claims one thing in contradiction to Davis' own claims is not "gossip". Wikipedia editors are explicitly forbidden from researching the validity of external sources, as you are suggesting with wedding and birth certificates, by the Wikipedia:no original research policy. — Saxifrage ✎ 00:08, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm sorry, but you can't make such an ultimatum with any authority. Declaring the terms under which another editor may edit an article is a violation of the article ownership policy. Demanding 3-4 references is unreasonable for merely stating that an unauthorised biography claims something. — Saxifrage ✎ 00:10, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

text: A book is a reference, and a citation to that book is all that is required to support the statement that the book claims something (assuming, of course, that it actually says what it is being stated to say). Furthermore, this isn't rewriting history—a statment in this article that says an independed/unauthorised biography claims he's Cuban while he claimed while alive that he's Puerto Rican is exactly the kind of statment that Wikipedia is encouraged to contain. It should be presented fairly according to NPOV, but it should not be omitted entirely, at least not for the reasons you have given so far. — Saxifrage ✎ 00:25, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The book was supported by interviews with the statements of surviving niece and grand niece of Elvera Sanchez who both confirmed that her parents were of Cuban parentage. This is further backed up by a comment made by the niece of Jesus Colon who said that when she met Elvera in 1999 she mentioned to Elvera about her Puerto Rican heritage and was told that she was not of Puerto Rican descent (BTW I don't think the link just posted of a Puerto Rican impersonator's website is more neutral on this issue than these other sources). Arniep 00:55, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This link shows that Enrique Aguiar, grandfather of Elvera was born in Havana . Arniep 01:11, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That doesn't really matter, and doesn't do anything for the argument to include the information. Our own research to validate the author's research for the book is inadmissible, as I've said in more detail below. — Saxifrage ✎ 08:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

text: The link is irrelevant and so would be any certification that you are suggesting. Wikipedia disallows editor's own reseach from appearing in articles. I've covered this in more detail below. — Saxifrage ✎ 08:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Not Cuban

message: The impression that the other users have given about this book is just completely misleading. The book is backed up by Davis' relatives as the information on Davis' Cuban ancestry came from his own blood relatives not ex-wives as has been claimed above. The book received very good reviews, the only criticism I could find by credible sources was that it was too long:
The Washington Post
Taking us back to vaudeville's racially charged origins in minstrelsy, [Haygood]'s brilliant at pegging his subject's forerunners, from dancer Bill "Bojangles" Robinson -- a great star in his day, and no relation to the pathetic "Mr. Bojangles" of Davis's later hit -- to the tragic Bert Williams, a black performer who, in a gruesome stylization that persisted into Davis's own childhood, appeared in blackface. Haygood is also a vivid and provocative writer, with a knack for setting the scene and making atmosphere double as analysis. —Tom Carson 
The New York Times
Mr. Haygood provides often gripping accounts of Davis's experiences...and writes with an informed appreciation of the performer's varied gifts. He does not dwell on Davis's decline in his last decades...But he does not shy away from documenting Davis's relentless need to ingratiate himself with celebrities and his spasms of self-doubt...he does a vivid, immediate job of conjuring the many worlds the performer traversed, and shows how the issue of race, in his own mind and in the minds of his fans and detractors, shaped his career and life.—Michiko Kakutani
Charles Spencer, Sunday Telegraph, 15 August 2004
One of the best, and sometimes one of the saddest, show-business biographies I have ever read. [A] sad, illuminating book. --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.
Christopher Silvester, Sunday Times 1 August 2004
Haygood writes with such headlong energy as well as novelistic insight and compassion about this tortured song-and-dance man. 
MQ Magazine
Most significantly, he hardly knew his Cuban mother. It doesn't take a psychologist to recognise that the love he so sought from his audiences and professional associates was a desperate replacement for love he never received from his mother.
Haygood documents how throughout the sixties and seventies, Davis lavished time, money and contributions to hangers-on as well as to public figures, ranging from Martin Luther King to Richard Nixon, in a bid to be loved and accepted.
He died of throat cancer at the age of 64 ­ a tragically early end to an extraordinary life, which is meticulously covered by the author. Indeed, if there is a fault in the book, it is that it is too long (around 500 pages).
more at Barnes & Noble
Samuel L. Jackson is basing a film based on the book . It is just not credible that it all the extensive information on his Cuban ancestry in the book was a fabrication as someone in a reputable publication would have commented on it by now (it was published in 2003). Wil Haygood's biography of Adam Clayton Powell received very good reviews and his own history of his own family The Haygoods of Columbus: A Family Memoir was awarded the Great Lakes Book Award so there is really no source that questions his credibility or competence  that I can find.   Arniep 14:33, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no verifiable evidence that Elvera Sanchez was of Puerto Rican descent but there is verifiable evidence that she was of Cuban descent.  Her mother Luisa Aguiar was brought up by her American mother Ida (nee Henderson) so I don't think there would be any problem of nationality. Sammy Davis hardly knew his mother so his comments on her ancestry can't really be considered to be a reliable source. Also, the author specifically states he spoke to Elvera and her niece and grand niece who both told of their Cuban ancestry. Furthermore the niece of Jesus Colon stated that Elvera had said she was not Puerto Rican. If the author had lied about interviews he said he had made it would have been in the news and there has been no news on that or any criticism.  Arniep 16:26, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: XLR8TION, read more carefully: Arniep said that Samuel L. Jackson is "basing a film" on the book, not that he is going to play Sammy Davis Jr. This reminds me of the time when Clint Eastwood (a big jazz fan) was trying to get the film Bird made. His agent was talking to a studio exec, and when he mentioned that Clint Eastwood wanted to make film about Charlie Parker, the exec expressed his credulity that a white guy could play the black jazz master (or words to that effect). -- Jalabi99 23:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry but you cannot exclude me from editing this page. I am not Cuban and I have no biases in relation to this article. Sammy Davis is not a reliable source as he hardly knew his own mother. Many people know little accurate information about their own ancestry so only information that is clearly thoroughly researched is acceptable. Arniep 16:50, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Arniep, there's no suggestion that you will be excluded even if that were possible. You must stop arguing the merits of the book though. They are irrelevant to Wikipedia policy—in other words, you are right, but not for the reasons you have given. Since you are right that the book's claim should be in the article, please, please, please stop trying to justify the book's research. It's completely irrelevant. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually Tony did suggest that I should be excluded from editing the page "I will warn (ask) User:XLR8TION to not interfere and you can do the same with User:Arniep.". I wasn't justifying the book's research, I was merely saying that it is a reliable verifiable source whereas what people may say about their ancestry unless backed up by documentary evidence cannot be considered reliable sources.  Arniep 21:28, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Evaluation of the book

message: Dear Arniep: The only way this argument will end, and the way it should be, is to write Elvera Sanchez is of alleged Puerto Rican background, although "(name)" book claims she is of Cuban ancestry. If the National Enquirer says Oprah dated an alien and she claims she didn't who are you gonna believe,. the National Enquirer? Antonio nonsensesout Martin
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Arniep"
:Please read my comments above. Arniep 21:01, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other comment 

message: I've reverted because we're not done here. Having a wording is not enough: we also need to agree on how to cite it and where to put it. Furthermore, Arniep's last edit included a bunch of changes that had nothing to do with the wording under discussion and so do not reflect consensus. — Saxifrage ✎ 02:23, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made edits to remove original research and comply with NPOV. I have reservations about concluding this early, since XLR8TION has not weighed in on these changes. Without a clear consensus the article is likely to remain unstable. — Saxifrage ✎ 18:04, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reversion 

message: From this edit:
:The book claims that Elvera was in fact born in New York, the daughter of Cuban Americans Marco Sanchez, a cigar salesman and Luisa Aguiar, information which was obtained from the daughter and grand-daughter of Elvera's sister Julia and from contemporary documentation.
Everything from "information which was obtained..." to the end is uncited, because the book claims that this is true and the article is stating that this is true. Either this needs to say "the book further claims that this information was obtained..." or it needs a citation to yet another source (i.e., one that isn't the book itself). Without one of those, it is original research.
Furthermore, even with those additions, the amount of space that would then be devoted to one point of view on Davis' heritage would be undue weight as detailed in the NPOV policy. — Saxifrage ✎ 22:14, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Based on contemporary documentation and statements from the daughter and grand-daughter of Elvera's sister Julia, the book concludes that Elvera was in fact born in New York, and was the daughter of Cuban Americans Marco Sanchez, a cigar salesman, and Luisa Aguiar." Less awkward than your proposed version, and does not seem to me to give undue weight. That said, the undue weight portion of the NPOV policy is not an invitation to try to bind viewpoints you dislike into a Catch-22, whereby they cannot be included without citation, but also cannot contain the citation. Phil Sandifer 00:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do realise that last point, I think I just didn't clearly enough separate the two issues. I do think even that this wording still gives undue weight, but it's borderline and definitely reads better so I wouldn't disagree with that version being in the article. — Saxifrage ✎ 00:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are going a bit overboard saying it gives undue weight just mentioning her parents names. Also, if we are not to put undue weight on the 2003 book we need to remove any birthplace from the header. Arniep 01:01, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To clarify, I'm not referring to the mention of her parents, but the bit about what sources the book uses. On the point of birthplace in the header, you are right that it needs removal but for a different reason—saying that she was born in New York would be Wikipedia taking the side of the Haygood book. — Saxifrage ✎ 02:13, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's exactly what I meant re the birthplace. I don't think saying what the source of the information on her parentage is claimed to be is putting undue weight. Arniep 13:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV and original research 

message: An anon editor has removed comments from this article several times without comment, and the editor left this apparent on his/her  talk page Antonrojo 04:02, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Transferred comments

message: In Spanish the spelling is Elvira, not Elvera. Chvsanchez (talk) 07:42, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elvera or Elvira 

message: There has been a lot of discussions on this page but this article needs to show notability and not just being the mother of someone famous thus notable. The references actually point out the sons name and there needs to be some to reflect the name on the article. Otr500 (talk) 15:20, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notability and references