Talk:Welsh English/Archive 1

message: Why is this accent not mentioned? It's clearly distinct from the other 3 accents mentioned. I guess a good example is Glyn Wise of big brother fame, or perhaps Rhys Ifans (not exactly sure where he's from though, but his accent is northwestish). 
I don't feel qualified to add anything myself. AneurinM (talk) 20:38, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: While he was born in Haverfordwest, Rhys Ifans was raised in Ruthin and went to school in Mold, so his accent's more north-eastern than north-western, though not Wrexham or Deesideish! -- Arwel (talk) 21:11, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - still no mention after 2 years. Not only is there the distinctive Bangorau accent contrasting with the inflexive Coffi accent  but the distinctive and sometimes almost incomprehensible rural Anglesey accent. I'm no phonetics expert , but there must be a wealth of material here for at least a couple of paragraphs.  Velela  Velela Talk   13:28, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: North west wales accent?

message: Clearly I can't remember those books from when I was 10, because I have looked at the publication date on the things now. Ahem. But anyway, there has been masses of silliness going on on this article, with someone practising their tagging abilities so that new templates arrive hourly. I have had a go at improving it, but things still to be done: 
* That list of pronunciation: where did it come from? I don't understand IPA too well, but some of it is a bit odd. I would really like a cite. Especially because at least one line of it was added in quietly by one of the IP addresses whose contributions are mostly to add random templates to the article. Assuming good faith, I have left it for now.
* And in that list, there's nothing about one of the most popular stereotypes at all: 's' being 's' always, and never 'z' ('was' ->'wass', 'busy' -> 'bissy'). 
* Famous actors as examples of accents: careful here because lots of actors suit their voice to the occasion. (CZJ accepting that award in purest Hollywood/Swansea springs to mind.) Examples of specific periods or films or something would help. I have left Under Milk Wood out because I have not listened to it in an age and can't remember useful anything about it.
* English visitors to Wales think they can hear German accents? Eh? Source?
** Funny you should say that - Eirias High School, Colwyn Bay had a geography teacher (who also taught my father) who was about as welsh as it gets. When he spoke, he sounded more than a little like the german soldiers in old 1950's black and white war films. He once had caue to reprimand the class ****head - I quote him thus: "Do you vont Leintz?". Alumni will know who I mean. Think of the brass-screw fashioned arrowin the floor aligned to point north.
* Dig out the research about "nicest accent to listen to" and "most disliked accents": Generic Welsh (as in what people who think there is only one accent imagine it to be) is definitely an accent that comes in for stick in England. The Geordie article has a note about how Geordie has recently become trendy.  
* Need quotes from Fluellen in Shakespeare and from the Twm Sion Cati stories (Llanerch republished them) about p's and b's and stuff. Borrow probably said something about the accent in English too. Could have a little "Welsh English in history" section then, with notes about how the accent was distinct in those periods.  
* Lots of the stuff in Hiberno-English and Highland English about the influence of Irish and Gaelic looks really familiar and someone who knows the topic should go through and add the Welsh equivalents here.
Comments? I'm completely unqualified to do any of this (well, I can dig out the quotes), but someone needs to.
Telsa 09:15, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Stuff to do

message: :Use of /χ/ (the voiceless uvular fricative) in loch, Bach, etc.
Is it really uvular?  On Welsh Language, ch is listed as velar. Main Page 07:32, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty sure it's velar. --logixoul 08:18, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  uvular fricative 

message: Did Talfryn Thomas and Nerys Hughes in The District Nurse both have North Welsh accents?  I have heard this but cannot say for myself.  PatGallacher 16:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Where do you get that idea from? Burton and Hopkins are both from the Port Talbot area... you can't get much more southern than that. -- Arwel (talk) 00:23, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hopkins parents apparently lived in Caerleon, near Newport. It's mentioned on Paul Flynn MP's website somewhere. Pbhj (talk) 01:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  North Welsh accents 

message: Consonants are pronounced very clearly, including at the end of a word, so "bad" can sound like "batt"
This seems rather dubious to me.  I more or less get what 'pronounced clearly' means.  But do English people pronounce the consonants of 'bad' any less clearly than the Welsh?  Perhaps /t/ is more rarely pronounced as a glottal stop by Welsh people? But even if this is so, I fail to see how this is connected with 'bad' sounding like 'bat'.  How is that clearer?  If Welsh people tend to devoice final consonants (do they?), then we should say that rather than resorting to such vague concepts as relative clearness.  In any case, I've removed it.  garik 14:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  In South Wales at least "bad" is often pronounced with emphasis on the last consonant so it is distinct "d"; "ba" as in barn, with "d" as if someone asked you to sound the d in "dump". "bad" elsewhere is pronounced like "add" (from addition) with a "b". But you're probably right to remove it unless international phonetic symbols can be used to show this and specific reference can be made to eg a video/radio programme (not sure what policy on this is at Wikipedia).  Pbhj (talk) 01:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  More 'clearly'? 

message: The reverse as quoted He learned me to drive v He taught me to drive is never heard in reverse as dysgu translates to both to be taught and to learn. Dwi dysgu cymrag means both I'm learning welsh and I teach welsh, dependant on the person one would know which version of dysgu they were using.Bensnowden 00:09, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dysgu

message: What are the differences in the pronunciation of rude and rood, threw and through, chews and choose, chute and shoot? --Darth Borehd 01:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Yod-dropping" usually means that an initial "y" noise is left off a vowel sound. However, in some of the above words, the initial "y" noise is actually an addition unique to some dialects of English and so the neglect of this sound is not truely yod-dropping.  For example "rude" from Latin "rudis" was originally pronounced the way it is spelt but later in some dialects it may have come to be pronounced like "feud"; the same goes with chute. On the other hand "chew", from Old English "ceowan", is truer to its history when pronounced like "skew" though it is in some dialects slurred so as to sound like "too", this is yod-dropping. So what the author means is that Welsh dialects of English tend to conserve the difference between words which were originally pronounced with a "yu" sound and those wich were pronounced with an "u" sound.  The author's confusion between yod-dropping and yod-addition may arise from the fact that in English the letter name of U is pronounced "yu", this however does not mean that "yu" is the propper pronunciation of the letter.  Instead, it is only called "yu" because of yod-addition which commonly occurs in stressed initial "u" sounds.--24.151.184.192 (talk) 01:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  How are these pronounced? 

message: I've added a template requesting more sources; there seems to me to be an awful lot of statements (very likely true, but not currently chaseable) that need some verifiability.  Cheers, Lindsay 17:19, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: To be more specific, there are currently five individual citation requests, which have been there for siven months or so, in two paragraphs.  There is one reference only, to a BBC survey, with regard only to the perception of Welsh accents and employment likelihood.  Sentences such as this, [i]n particular, Scouse and Brummie accents have both had extensive Anglo-Welsh input through immigration, although in the former case, the influence of Anglo-Irish is better known clearly need something to back them up.  Cheers, Lindsay 17:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation request 

message: A history section would be nice.  Like...the phases of when the English language truly started to take root in Wales.  Its original inluences too, etc.  This article touches on none of that. - Gilgamesh (talk) 01:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: As Ryan Giggs has a Mancunian accent is he really relevant to this article? 82.5.208.124 (talk) 23:04, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cardiff 

message: In this section we're told that "in Welsh English, the vowel sounds in "bus" and "the" are identical."  Isn't that true of most English dialects?  Don't most English speakers pronounce t-h-e as "thuh"? (I assume the sentence doesn't mean the other pronunciation of t-h-e as "thee").  Perhaps a clearer example could be found.  Exploding Boy (talk) 16:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I had a chat with my friend from Yorkshire about this and he pronounces bus with a much more closed vowel, like in put, so I'd say no. Welshleprechaun (talk) 23:23, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No to which part of my post?  Although many people pronounce the "u" in bus more like the "u" in put, that just underscores the problem with this example: not everyone pronounces "bus" the same way.  Also, I don't think it's particularly common to pronounce the "e" in the like the "u" in put, so the actual pronunciation in the example is still unclear.  Exploding Boy (talk) 00:55, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation and peculiarities

message: The section on regional accents within Wales is just rubbish. Most of it is OR at best.  There's one source in the whole section.  It also attracts editors who want to describe the accent of their own areas impressionistically. So I'm moving it here and suggest that we put it back once we've managed to turn it into something encyclopedic, with sources. garik (talk) 22:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regional accents within Wales section