Talk:Upper Canada College/Archive 1

message: 69.194.224.121:
Please identify your source that proves that UCC /is/ Canada's leading private school.  I don't know how familiar you are with Canadian private schools but I am sure many would argue that schools like UTS, TCS, Ashbury, and Appleby (and those are just schools in Ontario) can compete with (and beat UCC) on many fronts.  So, again, please substantiate your claim, otherwise I don't see what is being served (other than perhaps UCC recruitment interests) by insisted on the distinction between "one of Canada's leading..." and "Canada's leading". Carruthers 03:06, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: UCC does have landholdings apart from the Toronto campus, namely their wooded science school in Norval, just outside of Georgetown, Ontario (181 hectares, not 680).  They also do have a collection of Group of Seven paintings, of which the principal has 12 in his office (and presumably others elsewhere in the school).  As for the rest of it, I was not able to verify any of that information.  Maybe someone could contact the school to confirm?  Darkcore 18:03, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I found the same information through a Google search as you mentioned above.  I know of the Norval property but because they use if for operational purposes it would not be reported as part of the endowment.  On the other hand properties generating revenue elsewhere would.  On the issue of the Go7 paintings would anyone think it unfair to change the statement to "a large collection of original Group of Seven works" or something similar?  It seems difficult to objectively define what "the largest collection" of anything would be (total value, number of pieces, or aggregate size of pieces?). Carruthers 18:12, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: The Norval property does generate some revenue.  My private school (which will go unnamed) rented the property from UCC in order to run some of its class-specific activities and I know that other schools did the same thing.  As for the Go7 paintings, the McMichael Art Gallery in Kleinburg, Ontario houses the largest collection of their paintings in terms of numbers.  Darkcore 18:37, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: To which report are you referring, Caliper?  I've never seen a comprehensive ranking of Canadian private schools before.  I know the Fraser Institute has a ranking of Canadian secondary schools, but that includes public and separate schools. Darkcore 22:51, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It's quite possible that that was it, and I just assumed that it was private schools.  I didn't see the actual report; it was referenced in a UCC information booklet 5 years ago when I was applying to secondary schools.  It's funny that rankings are so important... if you want go into humanities or languages, the school you want to go to probably wasn't even listed in the top 20. --Caliper 00:59, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: This Globe article names BSS as UCC's sister school:  Darkcore 14:52, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

text: Well you have already made a mistake. UCC is not the oldest school. I know a school that is older, St. John's-Ravenscourt School. And I know for a fact there is a school even older then SJR, although the name escapes me. Nice try. You cannot justify the bias of saying a school is the best, and this is simply not wiki behaviour. Drop me a line on my talk page. TDS (talk • contribs) 02:29, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  UCC Canada's premier school. 

message: After looking at UCC's page and that of other top schools such as Eton College and Harrow School, I suggest we re-do this page in format.  We should have an opening paragraph, with a picture on the right as there is now, followed by a table of contents with History, Noted alumni, Customs, etc...I would be able to provide a lot of information as well, and I am going to get a copy of the school's crest from the I.T. department to make a section on as well.  What do you think?
Travisritch 18:49, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Travisritch, it may be morth worthwhile to do it in the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Education_in_Canada project standard. TDS (talk • contribs) 02:27, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-doing the page 

message: Okay, so basically we've gone from an overly pro-UCC bias to a pro-Appleby and anti-UCC one. The above attempt at mentioning a copy right infraction was possibly accurate and I will personally see that if such a copy right infraction has occurred that it is changed as soon as possible. 
However in regards to the wild claim by the user that UCC has witnessed "falling standards" is absurd. UCC maintains itself as easily the independent school with the highest academic standards. These standards originate from the usage of the IB programme at the College. The IB - universally accepted - as the most challenging and prestigious of high school programmes in the world, continues to add a much higher standard to the academics of Upper Canada. Moreover, UCC annually ranks as one of the top IB schools - and some would argue, the top school - in the world. This ranking, and the fallout from its prestige, allows UCC to claim extremely high academic standards. Whereas, schools like Appleby, follow academic programmes which are usually locally-run and administered; and therefore receive no exterior mark supervision. Therefore, there allows the ability for mark inflation and blatant favouritism towards certain students. Programmes like the IB which call for a fully externally marked papers, exams and assignments eliminate such a bias. 
Now, the issue of Appleby College, a wonderful school and without a doubt one of the leading schools in Canada. However, there exists no evidence which gives any hint that Appleby, has according to the edits of the main article by the above user, “surpassed” UCC. Let’s deal with these quotes:
1)	"Appleby College has set a benchmark for excellence among the independent schools." – Let’s point out here the importance of semantics. The quote says “a benchmark” not “the benchmark.” It is extremely vital to point that difference out. Moreover, if you read the CESI reports they sing praises about every single school they report on. If we were to trust the CESI reports, we’d believe that ever private school in Canada is the epicenter of enlightenment. 
2)	“Appleby is the best private school in Canada.” A fairly wild and nonsensical assertion with no factual base, as is evident by the lack of a source. Well actually, the author cites “Appleby” says as the source (similar, to “Simon says.”). How ironic that a school should in their own publications, as the author is alluding to, that they are “best.” This is like McDonald’s publishing an ad saying that “Our burgers reign supreme.” They don’t. Appleby is a fine school, however if they are the only ones saying they are the best, then I would contend the validity of that source. UCC on the other hand, has a plethora of sources which claim that the College is the most exclusive, prestigious and “best” school in the country.  
Now moving on to the second argument presented, the issue of UCC being the best prep. school in the country. The user claims that the entire discussion page of this article has summed up UCC in the following 4 categories: i) money; ii) elitism; iii) history; and iv) sports. (Naturally, he/she forget the significant number of sources, cited above, which clearly state that UCC is the premier school.)
i)	Money: Prep. Schools by definition tend to be ranked in regards to how large their endowment is. The trustworthiness of this statement, I’ll admit, might be wrong in theory. However, in practice, it is very much how people view prep. schools and how they are stacked up against each other. Here UCC wins versus Appleby. 
ii)	Elitism: I think it’s fair to say UCC is full of elitist people, because it simply is very synonymous with the elitist members of society. It’s fair to say that when looking at a prep school they do weigh the factor of how elite they are – UCC wins this battle too. 
iii)	History: To be the best prep. school in the country means you need to have an illustrious history. UCC has such a history; most other schools in Canada do not. UCC is a school which has made unbelievable contributions to Canada and the world. It is that history which shows a significant portion of the importance and role of UCC. 
iv)	Sports: I agree it doesn’t play a huge role. However, College teams have always performed, on average, to be the best amongst Canadian independent schools. Moreover, when the College competes internationally, they also do extremely well. If you’re an athlete, looking at the College’s overall athletic record (ie. All teams) it is fair to say that UCC is a powerhouse when compared to any other school – with the possible exception of SMCS.
The user/author asks: “Should the schools not be judged by the same principles upon which they were founded?” The answer to that is an incredible and enthusiastic “yes!” UCC’s founding in 1829 was to be the premier educational institution in the colonies – and to this day, 175 years later, it remains.
UCC Old Boys: This probably had the least sense of any attempted argument by the user. Old Boys of UCC have contributed more to Canada and to the world than graduates of any other single school in Canada and most in the world. Eton College is a tremendous exception in the world – very few institutions and organisations are even within the same planetary orbit as that school. Though: Out of the alumni links to UCC the following is true (though the numbers are most likely higher, but Wikipedia is restricted in access to full information):
-	The school has produced at least 4 Lt. Governors of Ontario
-	1 Lt. Governor of Manitoba
-	1 Governor General of Canada
-	5 of the world’s great authors
-	6 of Canada’s billionaires
-	3 Chief Justices of the Courts in the last 2 decades
-	3 current federal cabinet ministers 
-	4 Presidents or ex-Presidents of the University of Toronto
-	Numerous business and academic positions.
UCC graduates have made a spectacular and lasting impact on Canada and the world. For being 175 years old the school’s contributions have been extradionaire and leave the other Canadian schools in the metaphorical dust. The list here on Wikipedia does not give a fair sense of the true power and success of Old Boys from UCC. 
The last two points won’t even being discussed…because well, they are well established facts that certain people have been trying to fix. However, what you did, in paticular with your rant about the supremacy of Appleby, showed none of the so-called “inflation of truth” that you were apparently such a defender of. All you did was turn the tables from "pro-UCC" to "pro-Appleby."
To conclude: “The health of UCC is very important for the health of the country." – Michael Wilson, Minister of Finance
A fierce debate between two anon posters - that's not going to help us much.
It appears to me that UCC has a difficult time arguing its significance without a real understanding of the College's Old Boys and the things they have done.  However, if it wouldn't be in violation of anything, there are huge wall-mounted parchment-looking inscriptions all over the school noting down notable graduates of the school and honours students have won - every Rhodes Scholar, every Victoria Cross, etc.  I would be more than happy to make notes of people on these and pass them along for inclusion in the article.  If you look at those Eton lists, the criteria for being listed is quite low, even military commandants are included on the list - one could hardly call those of such rank famous.  As UCC keeps these records as well, who's to say I/we can't?  The school is open to visitors as a historical building in Toronto, so it's not to say that the information is meant to be hidden or copywritten.  Would this be of help? Travisritch 18:42, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response to: Possible Copyright Stuff...plus a debunk! 

message: "The current student-to-teacher ratio is 1:8."
Are there really 8 teachers for every one student? ;) Somebody who knows the real ratio should fix this. -Frazzydee|✍ 23:12, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Student-to-teacher ratio 

message: I recommend removing this section, its far too incomplete (fixing this would make it too exhaustive). It takes away from the professional look of the page, and its general relevance, by giving little that is of any help to anyone looking up UCC. As well, since when is Applby considered a rival?
Cheers,
MB
Appleby is not a rival - it was the talk of a mad man! Nevertheless, the jargon should be gone!
I agree, it is just useless.
There has recently been a profileration of the fact that UCC has a wikipedia article.  Students have taken to editing it at their leisure, thus resulting in the poor-quality UCC jargon and "houses" sections.  I believe they should both be removed or thoroughly changed in format and content.  Travisritch 23:41, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  UCC Jargon 

message: As I have never edited this page, I don't want to barge in here and begin a full scale remodelling of this page. However, I am wondering if there is any support for using the standards set in Canadian Education WikiProject. For examples of this template applied to private schools see Collingwood School and SJR. 
Cheers,
TDS (talk • contribs) 02:17, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: WikiProject Standards

message: Do we actually have evidence that all of the Group of Seven paintings the school had in its possession have been sold?  The only reference to these I can find is a Globe and Mail article which states: "The school has also ordered an appraisal of many of its assets, which include Group of Seven paintings, Canada's first Victoria Cross and Norval, a vast plot of land near Georgetown. Despite this, school officials insist that the school is not in danger of being forced to sell off assets to cover its legal costs." 1  Nowhere can I find a categorical statement that UCC has disposed of any of the paintings, let alone all of them. --gbambino 17:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Group of Seven paintings 

message: I've created a userbox for UCC students/faculty/staff/Old Boys, available here:  Template:User Upper Canada College.  Cheers, --Madchester 07:26, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New userbox