Talk:Cougar/Archive 2

message: This is an extremely well-written article-- worthy of praise. The writing is clear, strong and information-rich. I really enjoyed reading it. 
Sean7phil 05:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: This is an Extremely Well Written Article

message: Hi, just a quick question: I don't quite understand this sentence: In North America, particularly the United States, panther by itself refers to a Cougar when the context implies a local species, such as the Florida panther population. What is a "local species"? Would it be accurate to say, "In North America, particularly the United States, the term panther is sometimes used to mean Cougar, particularly in reference to the Florida panther"? Kla'quot 05:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Of all the sentences on this page, that may well be the only one that I've left intact since I began editing. Just tweaked it. Marskell 08:47, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cougar vs panther 

message: I have shuffled and abbreviated the Ontario references that were placed in the lead. In expanding this page, over-specifics regarding eastern sightings were removed. The problem is, if we add a specific province or state then someone else would add their province or state and someone else will add theirs and so on. When this goes on the mainpage in a few days I'm sure "I saw it in my backyard"-type info is the first thing that's going to be added; we should avoid this. 
Also, I'd say that for Wikipedia's puposes a "confirmed" eastern population exists once a .gov source or an organization like the IUCN says so. Everything else is a "suggested" population. Marskell 09:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Over-specifics 

message: :Feline immunodeficiency virus, an endemic AIDS-like disease in cats, is well-adapted to the Cougar.
It needs some explanation for those of us who don't understand the lingo of immunology. Anchoress 02:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Feline immunodeficiency virus is similar to AIDS. It is well-adapted to the Cougar; it can infect multiple species for felines, but is particularly suited for attacking the Cougar. - UtherSRG (talk) 02:30, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool. Did you add that to the article? Anchoress 03:30, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added it. Here's the abstract. I think we have the basics right in this sentence. Marskell 08:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What does this sentence mean? 

message: Should the word "Cougar" really be capitalized throughout this article? —PHaze 02:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. See WP:BIRD for the logic as to why. - UtherSRG (talk) 02:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  WP:MoS#Animals,_plants,_and_other_organisms says "Common (vernacular) names have been a hotly debated topic, and it is unresolved whether the common names of species start with a capital. As a matter of truce, both styles are acceptable (except for proper names)."  In any case "cougar" should only be capitalized when it refers to the species.  For example, you should not write "male Cougars", because the plural refers to a collection of individuals, not the species.  You can write "male cougars" or "the male Cougar" instead.  If "cougar" is capitalized when it refers to the species, then all species names in the article should be capitalized. -Pgan002 03:04, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the general animals guideline better than the Birds guideline (and the cougar is not a bird, luckily enough).  Having the various animal names treated as proper names here makes it read oddly. -- JHunterJ 20:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's nice. What one "likes" makes no difference. - UtherSRG (talk) 20:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Guidelines make a difference.  Editors' collective likes determine consensus, which makes a difference. Sheesh. Now, why do you prefer (or "like") the Birds guidelines better than the Animals guidelines for animal-but-not-bird cougars? -- JHunterJ 21:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The thing is, there isn't an animal guideline as such. It's just a bit of a mess. Marskell 07:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The three other feline species the article cites in the introduction (jaguar, lion, tiger) do not follow the format of capitalizing the species' name within the article.  I don't see the relevance of style usage for birds.  So far as a trend is evident, it's against what's been done here in the cougar article. 69.226.74.4 15:57, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The random capitalization is horrifying, actually.  No Wikipedia guideline (and I'm certain this one is being misapplied here) should trump the rules of the English language, which declare that common nouns (which certainly include words such as "cougar" and "mountain lion") are lowercased unless they begin a sentence. I'm not going to wade into this one, though, or my head will hurt if people disagree with this obvious and established fact of the language (would you like me to capitalize "fact" and "language," too?) Moncrief 01:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capitalization? 

message: The term "New World" seems to me like a backward term. Why not use "America" or something similar?
:Fewer syllables than "North and South America", perhaps. Besides, if you look up New World you find the term is still current in zoological and botanical circles. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "New World" 

message: The second sentence of this article states that "This large, solitary cat has the greatest range of any terrestrial mammal other than humans in the Western Hemisphere". This has been literally copied from a source but still strikes me as odd. What about the mammals that come with human civilization? Rats, mice, domestic animals?
:I specifically ref'ed that point in the lead as I thought it might come up. Rattus does come to mind, but note that's a genus with dozens of species. I'd guess that no one of them matches the total range of the Cougar (though collectively they're just about everywhere). Domesticates? Well yes, they match it. I always assume the human + pets exception is assumed for sentences of this sort. Marskell 08:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A sighting, even a catching,outside of the known range does not indicate that the range is wrong. The range is the usual and typical expected area that the species may be present under normal circumstances. Extraordinary circumstances, such as wildfires, can cause a species to temporarily change its range, but only after a significant time has elapsed without the range collapsing back to its previous boundaries can we say the range has expanded. - UtherSRG (talk) 19:25, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Viable population" are the two magic words. Marskell 19:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The range of the puma

message: The article is contradictory on the references here. Or perhaps the sentence got mis-edited,
the references say you should not try to stare into a cougars eyes, (you shouldn't do it to a male gorilla either). I think that makes more sense because it lives solitairy. That is why i think it got mis-edited and originally said 'don't stare into it's eyes because it agregates its agression, but i am not sure. At least when you stare into a big territorial predators eyes you should also talk i think, so the animal may aprehend you are awkwardly attempting to communicate (i think most animals would understand when u stared into their eyes pointing a gun at them these days).77.248.56.242 10:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi anon. Which reference says don't stare into its eyes? All that I've read says be aggressive without being jumpy, always face the animal, fight if need be etc. We can replace "intense eye contact" if those words aren't used, with "face it directly." As for solitary animals being more attuned to eye contact, perhaps. Solitary animals are generally much more wary, as they have the most to lose from injury. The relative size of the animal and whether it is apex would have the most to do with its interpreting aggression, at a guess. The safety tips for Black Bears are nearly identical to the Cougar, for instance, but the Brown Bear is a different story. Marskell 11:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is perhaps the best safety tip I've ever read: "Some experts advise that you play dead if the bear is a grizzly and to fight back if it is a black bear. Others say play dead until the bear is obviously feeding on you, then fight back." Ha! That's just superb. Marskell 11:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Attacks on humans

message: An ambush involves lying in wait, whereas stalking involves active pursuit, so this phrase seems self-contradictory. How about "stealthy" instead?--BillFlis 11:59, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm, well, it stalks and then waits at the appropriate spot. Here's a random grab. Not a lot, but I don't think it an inappropriate phrase. Marskell 12:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, those all seem to be scholarly articles, so I accept that the phrase is not inappropriate, at least in those circles, but how about some clarification of the jargon for a poor confused layman such as myself? At least one of those articles had "stealthy" in the same sentence as that phrase.--BillFlis 11:49, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Stalk-and-ambush"?

message: I am surprised to find no reference to the infamous Kim Bauer-cougar face off in Season 2 of 24 in the mythology and popular culture section. Come on! 210.210.78.151 11:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Kim Bauer

message: Do any of the sources used to discuss the range of the Puma explicitly state that it has exceeded that of the Grey Wolf? Maybe a comment on when/why? I suppose they don't necessarily need to, but the current range on the Grey Wolf page looks pretty large, covering all of Canada (10m sqr km) and a significant chunk of Eurasia (which is 54m sqr km). There's no definitive note on the range of the grey wolf either way, but I would like to suggest that the article notes that the Puma's range now exceeds that of the wolf, if it's true. Kayman1uk 12:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Range of Puma vs. Grey Wolf 

message: I am placed the name panther in the first sentence a number of times only to see it removed without discussion.  The name of this cat throughout a large percentage of its range was "Panther"  This area encompassed the entire southeastern united states.  Photos of panthers killed in Tennessee read "Local panther shot by...."  The Carolina Panthers are an example of this use in the Carolinas.  In much of Texas and all of Florida this is the only name for these cats.  It is used more widely than Puma in the English language and should be in the opening paragraph.
:I was under the impression that the cougar is a type of panther. --Kuaichik 02:15, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Panther is almost always used with a location compound, and in scientific papers the term is mainly used for the Florida population. (Compare: one and two). Panther by itself is rarely used, and I seriously doubt it is more widely employed than Puma in English to refer to the species in general. Marskell 07:34, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Panther 

message: Just wanted to mention--recently, there have been several reported cougar sightings in our area (we live in western Quebec, very near to Ontario). 206.248.160.186 01:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sightings in our area

message: Can anyone provide a little history of the political propositions in California pertaining to mountain lion protection. I remember prop. 117 in the early 1990's concerned mountain lion conservation. How has the mt. lion population in California responded to the 17 odd years of conservation efforts? Has human conflicts with cougars increased during this time? How many mountain lions were killed in California by Dept of Fish and Game since 1990 for human safety reasons? Bugguyak 15:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mountain Lion Political History in California

message: (place vote here)
# Kla’quot (talk | contribs) 03:06, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Option 1: "cougar" in small letters except at the beginning of a sentence

message: #UtherSRG (talk) 03:09, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  (A comment on the above reference, it is not true that MSW3 supports uppercase for regular writing, it only uses uppercase on common names when in its highly stylized hierarchal format (which is what the website is reproducing).  In all nearly all its commentary, it uses lowercase.  See Talk:Cheetah#capitalization. Beyazid 02:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, that's not correct, either. Different section of the book, written by different authors, use different capitalization styles. However, the predominant style throughout the text is to capitalize the common names. - UtherSRG (talk) 03:17, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope.  I looked at a random sample of 100 pgs of MSW3 to eliminate bias in evaluating this and found zero pages in the sample that supports the capitalization style that you like.  I found six pages that used lowercase.  (The majority of pages used the italicized Latin name when speaking in the comments section.)  Out of almost thirty authors who contributed to the book, I had to dig and dig and I found one that actually sometimes used capitalization, Peter Grubb.  He was inconsistent and nearly as often used lowercase. While doing the digging I found many more examples of lowercase usage.  Beyazid 02:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Option 3: "Cougar" always capitalised 

message: Umm, I'm pretty sure we've reached a consensus here. Eight established editors have shown support for lowercase versus two for the capitalized form. WP:MOS advises lowercase, sources such as dictionaries show lowercase... what on earth are we looking for to further establish consensus? Consensus has been established (two or three editors notwithstanding). Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 07:25, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's left to be done? 

message: Why not list that cougars are also called Catamounts on the main page? The Catamount page already redirects here but I didn't see where it listed Catamount as one of the names puma concolor goes by, and when I changed it someone changed it back with no reason. :(  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.138.58.135 (talk) 15:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it has many, many common names, so we've limited it to just the ones currently listed, and "catamount" is listed later on. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So you don't add one of the most common ones that people are more likely to recognise at the top?  That's silly.  Why not move Mountain Lion down there too then?  It's less common that Catamount.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.138.58.135 (talk) 16:30, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are mistaken. "mountain lion" returns twice as many ghits as "catamount". Perhaps "catamount" is a more popular term in your locale, but it isn't so in the broader picture. Also, please sign your talk page edits with ~~~~. - UtherSRG (talk) 17:15, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catamount 

message: I've read the above discussion about capitalisation. Regardless of the page protection, would it be acceptable to correct the one instance of capitalised Cheetah to lowercase? This is keep the page consistent, not to favour one or other side in the capitalisation debate. Carcharoth 13:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The short answer: yes. Absolutely. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 05:57, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's unprotected. Yip yap. Marskell 20:35, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done. Kla’quot (talk | contribs) 08:21, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cheetah is capitalised 

message: Please edit Image:Puma range.png and put a range on Michigan which the DNR has admitted that cougars are in Michigan  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.120.151.70 (talk) 03:04, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Image:Puma range.png

message: The current article says that cougars kill by suffocating their prey, but there are a few other sources online that suggest that the cat may also kill by breaking the neck and/or by delivering a single crushing bite to the base of the skull.  Sources are here, here, here (among others).  Maybe this is a minor nitpick, but could a correction be made to the article?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rynoah (talk • contribs) 04:36, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. Added a sentence. Marskell (talk) 12:02, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hunting Method. 

message: Cut until sourced. Marskell (talk) 11:51, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Hybrids

message: I love pumas so much I don't understand why so many people are starting to hunt it.  I must say, how come not a lot of people respect a puma?  There are all these people who don't hunt it for meat!  They should respect such a beautiful creature.  After all, just think how much easier our lives would be if we could live in peace with one!
--Pumagirl7 (talk) 01:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I was going to simply revert your edit, as talk pages are for discussing the improvement of the article, not for discussing the article's subject, but your PS fits that bill. No, the correct scientific name is Puma concolor. Puma used to be a subgenus of Felis, so it used to be Felis (Puma) concolor, but Puma has been elevated to full genus status, so the correct name is now Puma concolor. - UtherSRG (talk) 01:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pumas 

message: The article doesn't say.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.5.108.184 (talk) 01:53, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nocturnal or day hunter? 

message: I was wondering if there was any way that this article could mention the fact that there have been a number of recent sightings of mountain lions in the Appalachain region, specifically in West Virginia and Virginia.  I, myself, saw a mountain lion in a wooded area near Shenandoah national park.  There have not been any killed cougars found in the area or anything more concrete, so it's clearly a cryptozoological matter, but it's still worth noting that a large number of persons have claimed to have seen mountain lions/cougars in the area.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.138.172.93 (talk) 23:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sightings in the Eastern US 

message: the BBC said in a recent documentary that "Only a handful of people on Earth have ever seen a wild mountain lion". judging by several sightings comments on this talk page, this sounds like an exaggeration (since i interpret a "handful" as "about 5"), but does anyone know how frequent sightings actually are? 82.6.96.66 (talk) 20:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  number of people that have seen mountain lions 

message: Just checking - aren't the cougar on Vancouver Island a subspecies?  That'swhat I thought anyway, doesn't say anything in the article.  "Hyas puss-puss" in the title here is one of the Chinook Jargon words for cougar ("big cat"), nto a specific name for the VI variety; another term is swawa7 from St'at'imcets which finds its way into Fraser Canyon English....`Skookum1 (talk) 18:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Vancouver Island ''hyas puss-puss''

message: Would this be appropriate for the article? --165.21.155.8 (talk) 00:24, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Closeup image 

message: There is a quite good field guide, the link to which is attached.  It makes the case for the universal name "Puma".  Cougar is the trinomial name of the subspecies found only in North America.  Puma is the genus name and the most widely used name internationally.
http://www.cougarnet.org/Assets/pumafieldguide.pdf
--Counsel (talk) 21:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You would have to convince the folks at MSW3. It is as close to an official list of common names as there is for mammals. - UtherSRG (talk) 23:11, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name (Again) 

message: Don't the captions of both of the pictures below say pretty much the same thing (i.e. that cougars are large animals but related to smaller cats)? To me, at least, they seem to convey pretty much the same information. Shouldn't the caption for at least one of these pictures be changed? 
--Kuaichik (talk) 02:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Captions of two images 

message: I notice that young cougars are referred to in the article as kittens, but I thought that the young of big cats are usually called cubs. Just wondering about that; is "kitten" a term that biologists use, for instance? Cadwaladr (talk) 21:13, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Kittens or cubs?

message: This inforamtion may be true but the source is a bit questionable. This guy, TR Mader, borders on original research and apparently represents hunting interests. He is the self-titled director of the Abundant Wildlife Society of North America , but this looks like a personal homepage to encourage hunting. If this is the case, his statistics are a bit suspect. If they are true, there should be a more reliable source for them.Bob98133 (talk) 21:43, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lifestock predation - new edits 

message: The article currently claims that the mountain lion is "the largest of the small cats". Is small cat intended here in some technical sense, as the wording would suggest? We have no small cat article, and the big cat article says that mountain lions are sometimes included. It strikes me that the phrase is misleading and I'd like to remove it, but the second sentence would be an awkward beginning to the section, so I thought first I'd ask for expert explanation as to what exactly the claim means. --Trovatore (talk) 00:12, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Small cat" is being used here in the sense of those cats that are not "big cats". Anaxial (talk) 21:01, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "largest of the small cats" 

message: I noticed that the first sentence and the adjacent box have some innuendo. I wished to discuss before editing anything.
Klasicar (talk) 20:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see any problems. What do you see as needing fixing? - UtherSRG (talk) 05:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalised? 

message: Are these animals being reintroduced into areas they have inhabited before European settling?  If so, it should be mentioned and areas where it is happening included.  65.167.146.130 (talk) 17:51, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  reintorduced?