Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Gnaa, Nigeria (3rd nomination)

message: Stringall, S. C. and Broyles, D. (2000). Nigeria Travel Reference Map 1:900,000, Vancouver: ITMB Publishing Ltd. ISBN 15534113512
Additional information:
*Publisher's web page for this map
*amazon entry
--A. B. 10:55, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Although the AfD is over, I want to point out that this company is the same one that produced the map of Ethiopia I referred to in the discussion. Based on my careful study of their Ethiopian map, I would not base any conclusion about the existence of a town or village on the absence -- or presence -- of said settlement on their map of Nigeria. I do not mean to impeach the usefulness of these maps, but their usefulness is as guides & not a final arbitrator of the truth. -- llywrch 03:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Published Source

message: The NGA (National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency) maintains geographic data for "places" outside the U.S. as part of their function preparing maps and charts for the U.S. Government. (NGA-type data for the U.S. is maintained by some domestic federal agency, probably in the Dept. of the Interior). Data files in zip format for just about every country are available at NGA's Names Files of Selected Countries page. They also list the number of places catalogued by "country". 
The following is a list of uninhabited areas with the number of NGA "places" in their file:
* Ashmore And Cartier Islands	 18 
* Bassas da India	 8 
* Bouvet Island	 111 
* Clipperton Island	 2 
* Coral Sea Islands	 146 
* Europa Island	 5 
* French Southern And Antarctic Lands	 2,504 
* Glorioso Islands	 14 
* Heard Island and McDonald Islands	 137 
* Jan Mayen	 435 
* Juan de Nova Island	 5 
* "Oceans"	 729 
* Paracel Islands	 452 
* South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands	 718 
* Spratly Islands	 266 
* Tromelin Island	 7 
* "Undersea Features"	 8,864
--A. B. 02:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "NGA Places" ≠ "Towns" 

message: I downloaded NGA's file of 43,229 "places" in Nigeria and pulled out the 55 places within 16 km (10 mi.) of Gnaa. I then started to look briefly at the fallingrain.com data for these places. I did not get through even the places beginning with "A" before noticing a pattern in the population numbers. I've linked to the individual fallingrain.com page for each place so you can see for yourself:
 fallingrain.com "Places" Within 16 km. (10 mi.) of Gnaa:
"Place" 	Lat.    	Long.   	Km to Gnaa	Population
Abuni   	8° 11' N	9° 3' E 	13.1      	6137
Adudu   	8° 20' N	9° 11' E	13.3      	6137
Anuku   	8° 10' N	9° 5' E 	14.9      	6137
Arugagwu	8° 21' N	9° 12' E	15.6      	6137
Aondu   	8° 25' N	9° 6' E 	13.5      	7340
Ayeso   	8° 25' N	9° 6' E 	13.5      	7340
Abagh   	8° 20' N	9° 1' E 	6.6       	9290
Adashu  	8° 20' N	9° 1' E 	6.6       	9290
Adudu   	8° 18' N	9° 0' E 	7.3       	9290
Ajav    	8° 18' N	9° 1' E 	5.5       	9290
Avesegh 	8° 18' N	9° 1' E 	5.5       	9290
Adam    	8° 18' N	8° 58' E	11.0      	12928
Agir    	8° 20' N	8° 57' E	13.3      	15533
Agor    	8° 16' N	9° 8' E 	8.2       	15941
Here are the 41 other "places" within 16 km (10 mi.) of Gnaa that I did not bother to check:
*Aza
*Buna
*Bunyam
*Bur
*Chamegh
*Cor
*Gamough
*Gari
*Gban
*Gnaa
*Gwa
*Gwanki
*Human
*Huwe
*Imon
*Jangwa
*Jungwa
*Jutu
*Kanje
*Kaor
*Kucha
*Kunde
*Kwarakwasa
*Kyeleve
*Kyuen
*Nagh
*Ndera
*Ribi
*River Asuku
*River Baa
*River Sango
*Rufai
*Saar
*Sambegh
*Shikaa
*Torkaa
*Tyiani
*Tyokoho
*Ukpo
*Uzam
*Zaar
--A. B. 03:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fallingrain.com's population data and their use of NGA's "places" 

message: Looking at the sample (above) of 14 places, if we assume all 55 places (within 16 km) that aren't rivers average about 8,000 people each , then that would give the metropolitan Gnaa area a population over 400,000 and a density of over 500 people/sq. km. (about 40% that of Lagos State, the location of the Africa's second largest city).  500 people/sq. km. would give Gnaa about the same the population density as Houston, Texas (521 people/sq. km.).
See if you can spot this 400,000 person metropolitan area on this Google image when you click in to maximum zoom -- I just see forests and fields.
Take a second look at fallingrain.com's page for Gnaa -- they don't claim Gnaa has 6559 people. Instead, they're estimating that 6559 people live within 7 km. of a place called Gnaa. That's a 154 sq. km. area, so the population density would only be 43 people per sq. km.
Doesn't sound like a town.--A. B. 04:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  fallingrain.com's population stats 

message: "Has anyone checked the Nigerian government records? Almost every country has a website: even poverty-stricken Ethiopia has an abstract of its statistical information online. I would imagine that the Nigerian census agency has a website, & the necessary information to provide a decisive answer might lie there."
:First of all, every country has its "third rail" of politics. In the U.S., it's social security. In Nigeria, it's census-taking; they don't do them often and they're said to be manipulated when they taken according to this BBC article and various other sites I've seen. It's a very big deal in Nigeria. The last published census results are from 15 years ago. The National Population Commission of Nigeria has nothing useful on their web site that I could find from the 1991 census that would address the existence of Gnaa.
:Second, the local state (Nassarawa or Nasarawa -- even the federal and state web sites disagree on the spelling) frequently mention Awe, the "local government agency" or LGA for these coordinates. LGAs appear to be the Nigerian equivalent of counties in the U.S. and some parts of Canada or divisions, shires, districts etc in some other English-speaking areas. Awe is also a town and the state web site has some PR photos of a rally in the nearest town, Awe  -- look at photo 5, which shows a large, columned building in the distant background; Awe is clearly a substantial town.
:In short, I can infer from Nigerian government documents that there's no Gnaa, but I cannot conclusively prove it since they do not list non-existent towns or all NGA places.--A. B. 13:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  So what does the Nigerian government or census say about Gnaa? 

message: Towns are encyclopedic, places are not. 
Nobody has proven that Gnaa is a town. 
Fallingrain is not necessarily wrong -- it's being misinterpreted.
Here's what fallingrain.com actually says:
:"Approximate population for 7 km radius from this point: 6559"
This is being repeatedly misinterpreted to mean Gnaa is a town of 6559 people -- that's not what fallingrain is saying:
* They don't call this place a "town" -- they call it a "point".
* Do the math:
**π times (7 km)^2 = 154 sq. km.
** 6559 people divided by 154 sq. km. = 43 people/sq. km
** 43 people within 500 meters of the place's coordinates.
**Assuming the average Nigerian family has 4 members, that means 10 houses on 10 hectares (247 acres) -- those are some big yards!
Who gets to be mayor? 
--A. B. 14:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  With just 43 people in Gnaa, who gets to be mayor?