Talk:Kragujevac massacre

message: The second cited website says this.
2. The German military command in Serbia listed the number of executed at Kragujevac at 2,300. After the war, the Communist regime inflated the figure to 7000, for propaganda purposes. A more accurate estimate for the total number of Serbian civilians executed in Kragujevac and the nearby villages and towns is about 5000.
I'm changing from "7000" to "2300-5000" civilians killed.ColombianConservative 06:57, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Error

message: Could I canvas opinion here for accuracy's sake - although I guess this question has been posed before. It concerns the first line "by Nazi German soldiers" which I think is misleading and/or inaccurate.
Firstly - is it not more accurate to say German forces of the Third Reich or German forces of Nazi Germany,  or similar? I have never been comfortable with any phrase that suggests every German was a Nazi.
Secondly - it is quite clear that collaborationist Serb units played a significant role in the atrocity, so could we not add "and collaborationist Serb police units" or similar?
Simply a question of accuracy - nothing more.
Mungo Shuntbox (talk) 07:27, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, Montenegran IP, but that's just utter rubbish.  Not every German was involved in the "war machine" as you call it - a quick example were the German communists.  The German Resistance movement - while not all that large - existed and many people went to the gallows for opposing National Socialism in their country.  You need to read a few history books.50.111.59.83 (talk) 19:54, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nazi Germans 

message: Right now, the intro paragraph states "All males from the town between the ages of sixteen and sixty were assembled by German troops and members of the collaborationist Serbian Volunteer Command (SDK) and Serbian State Guard (SDS), including high school students, and the victims were selected from amongst them." This suggests that the SDK and SDS included high school students, which may be true, but I suspect this phrase was intended to describe the victims. Can anyone provide some clarification on this point? Jfmantis (talk) 06:26, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I think including the derivative of them being highschool student give better picture then naming the age rangeRockinplayer (talk) 00:50, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  High school students? 

message: Glenny's The Balkans has a good description of the Partisan-Chetnik action that provoked the massacre. This part of the article is rather thin. I'm afraid I don't have access to the book, so PM, I'll leave it to you. 23 editor (talk) 17:04, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a copy of the -1999 version, but it varies dramatically from the sources used already (and lacks details). It implies that the German casualties were from the Landesschutzen company, whereas the sources used in the article say that the casualties were from the responding battalion and were incurred as it advanced towards Gornji Milanovac. That is a pretty big difference in detail. That bit of Glenny isn't footnoted, so we have no idea where he got this information from. I'm not a huge fan of using Glenny because his popular history style means that important details are left out, and he compensates with plenty of descriptive narrative. I'll see if I can prise anything useful out of him. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 23:57, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

text: I suppose both versions could be detailed, but I'm not sure that the detail of the incident that led to the massacre is actually all that important, other than the fact that 10 were killed and 26 wounded, because that is what led to the 2,300 victims. Cheers, Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 04:40, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added both versions now, let me know what you think? Cheers, Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 05:02, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

text: That will work for now. I'll snoop around for a detailed account with footnotes, preferably by a Holocaust historian. 23 editor (talk) 05:25, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glenny 

message: Judging from your work on Tito, you seem to have a hard copy of West's book. Mind adding the page number for the info I've added? Cheers, 23 editor (talk) 17:42, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't, but I have a loan copy pending. I've been using Google Books thus far. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 23:11, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  West 

message: This is what I was looking for . A detailed account by a Holocaust scholar. Unfortunately, my German is a bit rusty.  Sprechen Sie Deutsche? If not, maybe our German-speaking friends at WP:MILHIST can help? 23 editor (talk) 21:42, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: nur ein wenig... I'll take a look. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 22:42, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I've got a bit from it, but it seems to generally reflect what is in the other sources, and translating the German hurts my brain... Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 00:59, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

text: Obviously better with Manoschek, but there is a lot of overlap between the sources and the section comes across as very repetitive. I imagine it will come up during the GA review, but I would do away with "according to person x, this happened...". If two or three sources say the same thing, I would double-cite or triple-cite that particular assertion since everyone is in agreement. If the sources contradict each other, only then would I attribute the claim to a particular author. 23 editor (talk) 20:08, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manoschek 

message: Would Lexikon der Wehrmacht  be considered RS? I can't find anything more reliable to cite Hoffmann's fate. 23 editor (talk) 22:16, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I don't think so. It is essentially a fanboi site. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 00:03, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source 

message: Just a heads-up. The GA reviewer is going to be scratching their head when they get to the aftermath section, and the Kraljevo executions and Hoffmann are mentioned. I'd recommend that this content be restored. 23 editor (talk) 18:04, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I just don't see how it is relevant. Yes it occurred in the same timeframe, and was done by the Wehrmacht, but including it in the main body is mission creep, except as a See also. I'd be happy if it was mentioned in the Aftermath section, but it needs to stand alone there, not be intermixed in with the events leading up to and including the Kragujevac massacre. That material really belongs in the Kraljevo massacre article, not here. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 23:14, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

text: But Kraljevo isn't the subject here, while those authors are dealing with the overall subject of Wehrmacht reprisals in Serbia. Adding it in to the body just muddies the waters regarding Kragujevac. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 00:34, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kraljevo 

message: This section is unnecessary long,  keeps repeating the content of the (linked in) Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia in many aspects. Needs serious trimming!--bez potpisa (talk) 19:43, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: As I pointed out elsewhere, you have less than 100 edits, whereas the editors that have developed this article have FAs, GAs etc to their names. Clearly you have a lot to learn about the construction of articles on complex subjects. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 22:06, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Background 

message: Over at Gudovac, another editor found it useful to remove the death toll of 184–196 killed, and simply state that it was "around 190", which is the average of the two figures. Would this be a good idea here (i.e. about 2,786 killed)? 23 editor (talk) 19:20, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I certainly prefer to keep it exact because of the past inflated figures and potential for edit-warring. Cheers, Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 23:42, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

text: I think Peacemaker67 has that right. That aside, per the example of "around 190", I think "nearly 2,800" might be acceptable in the text, but for the fact that it is clearly correct to state the two varying figures there. In light of that, I think it is also correct to give the two figures as a range in the infobox, and that a simplified number there might be unstable for the reasons Peacemaker67 gives. Giving the precise average of the two figures would confuse me as a reader and, I think, be WP:SYNTHESIS, although I'm not sure that's what you were really suggesting. HTH. Nortonius (talk) 13:03, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

text: Coords; thought they were missing and found these  but I think they're for a different place. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 07:14, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Range 

message: The isbn 978-0-7867-0202-2 in the article belongs to a different book than the one mentioned in the article. NotYourFathersOldsmobile (talk) 06:51, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, fixed. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 07:21, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  ISBN is wrong 

message: , I found this archive https://www.ushmm.org/online/hsv/source_view.php?SourceId=32819 says that are in section of holocaust and therefore, also as a genocide, committed by nazi troops. I inserted it as a reference, if you need any complement, let me know for more information.Johannesblitz (talk) 04:00, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That is not what it says. There is nothing there that says that this massacre was a genocide or a holocaust. You are inferring that because it mentioned on the USHMM website. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 06:47, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holocaust Genocide type - Source 

message: G'day, while I have no doubt some Croats were probably killed in the massacre, the Stjepan Filipovic Elementary School is hardly a reliable publishing house. Did they get this information from a reliably published book? Cheers, Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 08:23, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, this is a Featured Article and a better source is needed. Unless a reliable source is presented, I think it would be best to remove it. What do you think? The previous wording did indicate that there were victims of other nationalities, which would presumably include Croats. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 17:15, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Happy for it to be reverted on the basis the source isn't up to snuff. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 05:16, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source for Croats killed