Talk:Armenia/Archive 4

message: Ararat arev 05:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeap, many countries have more than one. Russia has six.--Eupator 01:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: "Though Saint Gregory the Illuminator is credited as the "Apostle to the Armenians", when he baptised King Tiridates III of Armenia in 301, converting the Armenians, Saints Jude and Bartholomew first brought Christianity to Armenia in the first century. Thus the Armenian Apostolic Church is called the Armenian "Apostolic" Church, as both saints are considered to be the patron saints of the Church and so are under the protection and patronage of both apostolic saints." - from the Saint Thaddeus article.
It sounds to me like the Gregory the Illuminator article may need some rewording, because both the Thaddeus article and the Bartholomew article say that they are the patron saints, with the Thaddeus article pointing out that Gregory is the "Apostle to the Armenians," not the patron saint.  I know I'm no authority on this, but going by what these 3 articles say, it sounds like the error is in the Gregory article...Serouj 01:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patron Saints 

message: The United States contributed a significant amount of aid to the Armenians during the Armenian Genocide. Shown here is a poster for the American Committee for Relief in the Near East vowing that they (the Armenians, Greeks, Syrians and Persians) "shall not perish.
I don't think we need to add what's in bold, because this article is about Armenia, and the caption doesn't exclude those groups, it simply doesn't mention them.  And that is fine, because this article is about Armenia; someone looking at the image will clearly see (at the bottom) that the relief is for much of the Near East, not only Armenia. Serouj 23:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, "someone looking at the image will clearly see (at the bottom) that the relief is for much of the Near East, not only Armenia". Even if the article is about Armenia the caption should have some clarifying for the reader. The current version confuses a bit: "the American Committee for Relief in the Near East vowing that they (the Armenians) "shall not perish." Also seems a bit POVish. I propose "the Armenians among others" or "the Armenians and others" again because not only Armenians are mentioned in the poster. I would like to read a source which affirms that the poster refers directly and/or specifically to Armenians. --Brand спойт 23:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that sounds like a good compromise.  I fixed it now.  Best, Clevelander 00:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quote underneath Near East Relief image 

message: The vandalism of this article is showing no signs of stopping. Does anybody else agree with me that the page should be semi-protected from anonymous users? -- Augustgrahl 00:10, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: yes, this is the best idea. everyone has to login and you can set it in a way that only let users edit after their account is a few days old, this discourages the people who create throw-a-way accounts to vandalize, Pernambuco 02:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Protect?

message: I am a member of Wikiproject Ancient Egypt and one of the members who helps maintain pages from vandalism and other factual inaccuracy. Recently, two or three IP-adress-only users have come through and changed all the references to Mitanni in these pages to somthing like the "Armenian Kingdom of Mitanni" or mitannian kings to "Armenian Kings".
Now, as to what this has to do with you. These users have used the fact that this page here says that mitanni is part "of the Armenian Ethnogenesis," to use their words, as their justification for making all these changes. Now, beside the fact of that being an illegitimate citation for the pages that I watch, this page does claim such a statement, which all my sources lead me to believe is equivocal at best, lying at worst. Twice I have stuck a citationneeded tag on the claim, looking for so much as a single source to back it up, and it has been "reverted" by one who appears to be a normal editor of this page, and the other time by one of the IP adresses, who was rather angry that I would dare to challenge his or her assertion. It is my understanding, by reading Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Tagging_unsourced_material that I am well within my rights to demand a citation for any claim which is dubious and has no citation. I really must insist that such a claim be cited or removed, and I will be restoring that tag once again. Apologies if I sound angry, it's just that I've been trying to clean up after these IP adresses for several days now, and as far as my literature tells me, the statement I take issue with may as well say that the moon is made of green ~~cheeseThanatosimii 22:24, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: you are perfectly right of course, which is why I have just sproctected the article (again). dab (𒁳) 22:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

text: to the anonymous editor: WP:RS doesn't work like "see [some website]" in edit summaries. Cite your references, with author, title, year, publisher and page, in the article (preferably in footnotes) please. I tried to help you, coming up with someone called Rafayel Ischchanian who apparently claimed that the land Armani in Naram-Sin's inscription is Armenia. It is up to you to provide us with the bibliographic details of this hypothesis. dab (𒁳) 22:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Apologies, my eyes skipped lines, it was not one of the anons who removed the tag either time. Nonetheless, that fact needs citation. Thanatosimii 22:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I've looked at the armenianhighland.com site now, and while someone obviously invested much time in compiling this, and it has nice a collcection of images, the prose qualifies as pure cuckoo-cloud cranked-out national mysticism and ancient-astronaut style esotericism. Clearly not quotable as even a borderline serious resource. dab (𒁳) 11:27, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Those are all very bad Armenian sources and those bad Armenian sources are all very fringe and unscientific. That Kavoukjian is an utter and complete joke for example. Sumerians...please. Armenian Highland is nicely designed, but the writer is obviously a psychotic maniac.--Eupator 16:51, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Wrong. "Archeologists continue to uncover evidence that Armenia and the Armenian Highlands were among the earliest sites of human civilization."--Eupator 18:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: While I can't fault roaming Admins for calling this an "editing dispute," the problem here is that Ararat Arev keeps blanking material cited with reputable sources, not that there are two . Blanking is Vandalism, plain and simple. While it is possible to remove content in good faith, Ararat Arev has shown himself to believe fully that his position and only his position is the scholarly accepted position, and has called any attempt to add the "dissent" (though technically the identification of Armenians as Hurrians should be the dissent since noone actually argues that in scholarly literature) "Vandalism" on more than one occasion, both in editing summaries and on other people's talk pages. As Dab had said, this behavior was getting in the way of people trying to make a legitimate effort to improve this page, and now it has formally made that impossible until this "dispute" has been resolved. 
Every time Ararat Arev has been asked to defend a challenge to his "evidence," he responds by repeating the same stuff he gave as "evidence" and has accused us of not reading it well enough, as if anyone with half a brain should be able to see why it's right. Now, that's inappropriate and disrespectful, especially to those of us like myself who have spent years in school and have spent hours upon hours upon days researching this very topic of the origins of the Hurrians, and have put forward the majority opinion with the citations of where it comes from. This issue needs to be solved, either by Ararat Arev coming here and playing nicely, or by a RfC or some other appropriate action being taken. Thanatosimii 05:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Come to think of it, at this moment, another avenue might be Wikipedia:Accuracy dispute. Thanatosimii 05:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: There's that "lie" accusation you keep throwing around. That's unacceptable behavior. Ararat Arev, I have read those references which you have given me, and the only way someone can read them and think they say what you think they say is if his mind is coloured by overexposure to that crankery from Armenianhighland, which you have admitted reading. And yet you have not once actually responded with a real defense to this challenge, "Your sources do not say what you say they say." Hmm... I wonder why? Thanatosimii 18:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: We've all tried that to begin with. You have to realize that sometimes the problem is the newcomer. He refuses to cooperate, and thus cannot be helpful. "If we respond to Arev calmly and non-adverserially," I can assure you that he will not behave any differently, since he never behaved appropriatly to begin with. Thanatosimii 21:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: It's worth a shot here, but he's been typing reams of paper's worth of stuff on my talk page for a week now, and every time I am concice, he gets angry and accusatory. Thanatosimii 23:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I seem to recall being told explicitly in documentation that my talk page was not "mine" and that I shoudn't wipe. But perhaps I'm confused. Thanatosimii 01:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Edit War" 

message: I just finished writing a new article on the Yerazi, defined as the Azeris who lived in Armenia and left before the N-K War.  It looks like there's a good place to integrate the link in the final paragraph of the demographics section.  Any of the editors looking after this article want to find a way to add it?  Thanks ahead. --Bobak 23:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wanted to add something unrelated to the current dispute: 

message: Urartu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartu
"..and it seems that both Armenians and the Urartians had a major link with the Hurrians."
"..relatively high quantity of Armenian words and even entire Armenian phrases and sentences in the inscriptions (over 70 word-roots).."
Another point is that those who wrote the inscriptions were the elite. The common people didnt even understand all of it at that time. There are even Armenian words I dont understand today, cause of writers using difficult words. Those who wrote these inscriptions were the elite. Ararat arev 03:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is both irrelevant and not what talk pages are for. Thanatosimii 16:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Ararat_arev, cease spamming. Be useful and contribute to other articles that are not related to history or linguistics or anything that happened earlier than the 20th century. --Eupator 16:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Come again? I'm not sure I caught that... Thanatosimii 23:46, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Ah, gotcha. Thanatosimii 01:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

text: 1. A map does not mean anything
2. Artak movsisyan is out numbered with all the other historians rejecting his theory
3. This really can mean anything (Blood, language, food ,tribes, commanders etc "..and it seems that both Armenians and the Urartians had a major link with the Hurrians."
4. How do you know Mitanni didn't conquer them? "Our Nairi tribe was located in our Mitanni territory. The other two tribes Hay and Armen were located north and east." 
5. Basing on this picture its very hard to match the picture i can match lines to.  Nareklm 05:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mitanni: ''The Mystery kingdom of Armenia'' Part I 

message: Another RfC without a proper section. Sigh!
My comment is: Armenia is geographically in Asia, obviously and there's little doubt about that (I mean: it's 100% south of the Caucasus range, conventional border of both continents.
Said that it's also true that Armenia, as country of Christian tradition, is nowadays more linked to Europe (as this tradition has mostly vanished in West Asia under the pressure of Islam) and politically it belongs to it, together with all other Caucasian states and Turkey (Council of Europe and OSCE). Central Asian republics also belong to the OSCE. 
I understand that the disputed paragraph is:
Culturally, historically, and politically, Armenia is considered to be part of Europe. However, its location in the southern Caucasus means that it can also be considered to be at the arbitrary border between Europe and Asia: in other words, a transcontinental nation. However, both these classifications are entirely arbitrary, as there is no easily definable geographic difference between Asia and Europe.
While I do agree that the border between Europe and Asia is fundamentally arbitrary, specially in Russia, Siberia and Khazakstan, that Europe can well be considered a subcontinent of Asia (as much as South Asia is) and that the most correct cultural-historical-ethnological region is West Eurasia, including West Asia and North Africa with Europe in a sigle unity, standard coventions obligue me to rule that Armenia is not a transcontinental state (not more than, say, Argentina or New Zealand). Only culturally can be considered so but not from the viewpoint of physical geography, as its usually agreed. 
The paragraph is in brief fundamentally incorrect (and therefore POV). I'd suggest something like the following:
While according to usual conventions Armenia is placed in Western Asia, there are many historical, political and cultural reasons for Armenians to feel Europeans rather than Asians. Armenia is part of several pan-European organizations, etc.
In brief, I'd put the emphasis in the feeling European and the cultural, political and historical links to Europe. But saying that Armenia or Vladivostok are not in Asia is just plainly POV. It's easier to argue that Paris is in Asia (per Eurasia) than that Yerevan is in Europe, except in an spiritual sense, of course. --Sugaar 22:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What RFC? That was closed eons ago. Also nowhere in the paragraph does it state that "Armenia is geographically in Europe".--Eupator 23:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if it was closed, you should delete it from the list of RfCs. --Sugaar 01:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Caulm down. No need to keep beating a dead horse. See the archives if you're interested.--Eupator 17:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Who cares? Mr. Bachmann, please stop your European nationalism/patriotism. It does nothing to improve the quality of the article. Hakob 21:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Um... Mr. Bachmann appears to have just rebuffed "European nationalism"... Thanatosimii 21:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

text: what nationalism? You may as well call it 'Caucasian nationalism'. The horse isn't dead, since the mistaken statement is still in the article. I don't see what a plain factual statement has got to do with "pov", let alone "patriotism". dab (𒁳) 10:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with dab.. What culturally? Armenian culture is definitely Eurasian, if not Near Asian. Just because there have been debates in the past, that doesn't mean it cannot be looked over again, right? Armenian Christianity is a remnant of SW Asian Christianity, as dab correctly states. That sentence needs to be looked at. I mean, is there some sort of shame at being labelled Eurasian? Baristarim 10:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there some sort of shame in being located in SW Asia, Anatolia or the Caucasus? Historical Greater Armenia (which Armenian patriotism likes to harp upon so much) is mostly in Asia Minor, and not even the Caucasus. You would expect Armenians to be proud of the fact that they represent the heritage of ancient Christianity of Asia Minor. At the time of the Christianization of Armenia, the Germans were still sitting in trees :)  dab (𒁳) 10:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dab, more and more you're starting to sound like a rabid anti-Armenian. Harp upon Greater Armenia? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Why don't you go and spout your agenda and harp upon Georgia and Cyprus articles as well where the exact same line is also written? Oud and zurna are Armenian now? The same instruments and their variations are also used in the Balkans, how is that now? Armenian dance is "Oriental" now? So is Greek and Bulgarian dances right? Give me a break. You didn't even read the archives! There is no organization called "European Armenian Convention"! It was a convention organized by the Armenian government and diaspora organizations in Brussel and that quote was made by Ruben Sugarian, representative of the Armenian Foreign Ministry now ambassador to Italy.--Eupator 15:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I honestly fail to see how I can be construed as an anti-Armenian, never mind "rabid". The information on dance and music was taken from Armenian dance and Armenian music, I didn't verify it, you are welcome to fix things if they are mistaken. I cannot follow how my statement to the effect that Armenians can be proud of their heritage of early Christianity is "anti-Armenian". If anything, such statements make me an Armenophile. I am neither pro-Europe nor anti-Orient, in fact, I happen to be more into Oriental than European topics on Wikipedia (which is why I am commenting here in the first place), and I can only conclude that you somehow think "European" has a ring of "superior", which is, like, an opinion, which I do not happen to share. If we can attribute the "close ties" etc. stuff to some official source, hey, that's even better. I do learn that Armenia appears to seek to enhance its "Europeanness" recently (which is understandable for a country that has less than harmonious relationships with its immediate neighbours). That's perfectly fine with me. Armenia is welcome to join the EU for all I care, no problem. That will still make the "Europeanness" trend a recent phenomenon, and that will still not change the fact that Armenia is a country in SW Asia, this is really my entire point. dab (𒁳) 15:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Armenia does not want to join the EU for strategic reasons it's the EU that wants Armenia to join eventually, can you please understand that? EU is not the reason why Armenia is a European country nor is it Christianity. Ethiopia is also Christian. Anything that happened between 1375 and 1828 is irrelevant. Was the Cilician Kingdom not European lol That's when Armenia was under nomadic savages. As Mr. Sugarian said: "To conclude, we would like to emphasize that the Armenian people – both in Armenia and in the European Diaspora – regards itself as a European people. This people was separated from the main European stream by unfortunate historical circumstances and is now resolutely committing to an in-depth reunification with the European family.". For as long as there has been an Armenia and a concept of Europe, Armenia has been part of it! Hell even under the foreign occupation when so many oriental influences affected Armenia (they are being cleaned out to this day) travellers to both Persia and the Ottoman Empire could tell that Armenians are different along with the Greeks! Alphonse de Lamartine called Armenians "the Swiss of the East.” LOL! Henry Finnis Bloss Lynch said that: "In the Armenians we have a people who are peculiarly adapted to be the intermediaries of the new dispensation. They profess our religion, are familiar with some of our best ideals, and assimilate each new product of European culture with an avidity and thoroughness which no other race between India and the Mediterranean has given any evidence of being able to rival. These capacities they have made manifest under the greatest disadvantages.Their intellectual capacities are supported by a solid foundation of character, and, unlike the Greeks, but like the Germans, their nature is averse to superficial methods; they become absorbed in their tasks and plumb them deep. … These tendencies are naturally accompanied by forethought and balance; and they have given the Armenian his pre-eminence in commercial affairs. He is not less clever than the Greek; but he sees farther.” Dr. James L. Barton, secretary of the American Board of Foreign Missions, and former president of Euphrates College in Turkey, says: “I know the Armenians to be, by inheritance, religious, industrious and faithful. They are the Anglo-Saxons of Eastern Turkey" LOL--Eupator 15:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Wrong Db, it's outright falcity according to you and your pre-conceived notions! It's not black and white, thus you have to nitpick stuff like Ottoman musical instruments, heh. The quote stays Db! Like it or not. File a THIRD RFC or go through another channel for Georgia, Armenia and Cyprus. That's right all three, otherwise you're targetting Armenia for reasons one can only wonder. You have no chance in hell for doing that because there is no geographical boundary of Europe set in stone, it just doesn't exist! On the cultural, political and hsitorical fronts you have no chance in hell either. Two people already spent months and failed. Go ahead and try if you want to waste time, it's an uphill battle.--Eupator 16:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: sigh, I am not objecting to any quote, I am objecting to the statement in Wikipedia's voice, precisely because, as you agree, the matter is subjective. And I thought you were a reasonable editor, but that was probably just compared to Ararat arev :) We don't need an rfc to remove a subjective statement in Wikipedia's voice, that's simple Wikipedia policy. You are most welcome to keep any number of quotes, as long as you attribute them. Even if you could show that 99% of Armenians believe Armenia is in Europe, we'd still only say "99% of  Armenians believe that Armenia is in Europe", and not "Armenia is in Europe". dab (𒁳) 16:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Funny I was thinking the same about you, in comparison to caligvla that is;) That statement is about as neutral as any stamement can get. There is even a footnote with more details and links. You can't justify your allegation of that phrase not being neutral.--Eupator 17:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can, because it is in Wikipedia's voice. Do you understand that, "Wikipedia's voice"? Rephrase it as a statement by somebody, and we'll have peace. dab (𒁳) 17:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not required. Which somebody? The Armenian government, the Canadian government, all European governments, organizations, authors, kings, hsitorians etc. where does it end? The footnote states who says what.--Eupator 18:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

text: sheesh. Eupator accused me of being "anti-Armenian" because I said Armenia was in SW Asia. I have no idea why that should be "anti-Armenian", because like you, I find the proposition of being ashamed of being Asian ridiculous: You are welcome to take up the issue with Eupator, who does seem to insist on the position  you just described as a 'complex', but I am in complete agreement with you. dab (𒁳) 11:24, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm willing to replace the atlas with better sources balancing with the UN, however the paragraph will not be changed. Also I will not do this unless you demand the same for Georgia and Cyprus. --Eupator 14:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: the paragraph will be changed, slightly, to have "is considered" expand to "is considered by $SOMEBODY", per WP:CITE. Simple policy, Eupator, I'm not asking anything outrageous here. Obviously, the same holds for Cyprus. It appears that the case of Georgia is slightly different by virtue of being considered part of Ciscaucasia as "partially in Europe" by the UN. dab (𒁳) 15:05, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Db, the UN doesn't classify Georgia any differently than it does Armenia. Georgia has already officialy demanded that the UN changes its classification btw! As for the paragraph, a reader can see who considers what in the footnote, i'm sure you will be satisfied by my additions and I admit that the current one blows.--Eupator 15:13, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: alright, I am sure we can come to a satisfactory solution. I assure you I have no hidden agenda of any sorts, and my only concern is accuracy and due weight. My source for the UN classification of Georgia is the map posted to the right, I didn't verify this, but it states that Georgia as being Ciscaucasian (from the European pov) is classified differently. Which makes perfect sense if the Caucasus is considered the boundary of Europe: that clearly places [much of] Georgia within   and Armenia without. dab (𒁳) 12:20, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I have to agree here with Dbachmann on one point, which I'm quite familiar with: the "historically" part.  To say that Armenia has been historically part of Europe and leave out that other half of Armenian history (that of Eastern influence) would be a partial account of Armenian history.  For much of its history, Armenia has been divided among two powerful civilizations, one from the West (Greece, Rome, Byzanitine Empire, then Russian Empire), the other from the East, (Persian Empire, then Ottoman Empire).  (This of course isn't to say that Armenia hasn't been an independent state at times; it has, but often within the political influence of a neighboring civilization, at least after the Ardashesian dynasty.)  I might rephrase the "historically" part of this dispute with something like: Historically Armenia has been at the crossroads of civilizations, where East meets West.  (Now "culturally" and "politically" are another issue; the former is certainly subjective, and the latter is objective, with Armenia having a Western political orientation, although it maintains very close ties with Iran as well, which remains its "friendliest" neighbor, despite religious differences.)  Serouj 07:29, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

text: My thoughts on Armenian culture: it has some native Armenian elements (e.g. Armenian architecture, language, alphabet, music), influences from the West (e.g. operas, lingual influences, Greek/Roman gods in early history), and influences from the East (e.g. food, Zoroastrian gods, lingual influences).  Keep in mind that certain regions of Armenia at times were more "Western" or "Eastern" in culture, depending on their proximity to an influencing civilization (i.e. what side of the "border" they were on...).  This, of course, isn't to say that the two sides didn't have anything in common; just two flavors of the same juice.  Nevertheless, given the roots of today's Republic of Armenia as part of the USSR, I think the influence of European culture (specifically, Russian culture) has been greater than ever, at least in geographically Eastern Armenia (which historically - that is, before Russian expansion into the region - had been under the influence of an "eastern" civilization).  Serouj 07:57, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If I may just say a few words here, Dbachmann has a point which would made which would make this entire issue shrink drastically. We must change "is considered" to "is considered by $SOMEBODY". Obviously someone considere Armenia european, or there wouldn't be a dispute. Say who does so and most of this problem goes away. If the UN, say "is considered by the UN" If by some other association, say "By the EU, by such-and-such, by whoever" and cite the report that classifies it as European. Historically European? Perhaps there are historians who believe it's European. say "By historans x,y,z". If Armenians consider themselves European, say "by x% of Armenians" and cite the survey. However, "is considered" standing alone is in violation of the citation and weasel-word rules. There are a thousand different ways you could do this, so take your pick, however the specific one you've got right now is much too vague considering the controversial nature of the issue. When a topic is controversial, ambiguity is the enemy. Thanatosimii 08:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC 

message: deleted by Tigran as offtopic and OR. Discussion backed up by academic sources would go to Talk:Armenian language or Talk:Proto-Armenian language. dab (𒁳) 11:24, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Armenian and Sumerian

message: I have restored a part of Section Antiquity about Urartu, as it was discussed previously and protected by administrator (see version of 12 December). The version edited after 12 December only reflects the version of Gamkrelidze-Ivanov - that is it, which is not supported widely in academic community. We have reference which was removed.--Dacy69 01:53, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't start that nonsense OR again. We've been through this before. Thanatosimii 18:34, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Do you know why Nairi is a popular name? Because Nairi Zarian popularized it!  Do you know who Nairi Zairian is? -- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 21:40, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

text: No historian can possibly make such a ridiculous claim. It's absurd. It doesn't take a PhD to see this. Can someone call the Gauls French? No. Can someone call the Minoans Greek? No. Can you call the Etruscans Italian? No, no and no...-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 22:31, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Here's another. Were the Elamites Iranian? NO!-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 22:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite right, which is why references to the Armenian kingdom of (insert ANE civilization here) have been reverted regularly across the board. However, there is still an offending sentance on this page, "...each participating in the ethnogenesis of the Armenian people." No serious scholar argues that Armenians have any close ethnic relationship to any hurrians or even the hittites. If it can't be cited by a real source, it needs to be removed. Thanatosimii 22:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually that's where you're wrong. A number of Western scholars starting from Hubschman, Hrozny etc. have connected Armenians to Hitties, Luwians and Hurrians. Hell Diakonov himself lumps all non-IE words in Armenian as Hurrian.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 23:00, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Ignore the $##$ from ararat_arev for minute and read some objective sources, the Armenians are linked to Hittites, Hurrians, Phrygians, Luwians, Hayasa-Azzi etc.:,,  etc.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 23:07, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, that's not the kind of connection I mean. I mean to say that the hittites didn't go and become the Armenians... do real scholars actually say that? Thanatosimii 01:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well yes there are some that do but that's incorrect. It wasn't just the Hittites but many others.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 18:36, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

text: There is no hard evidence to prove that. Nareklm 23:28, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antiquity - Uratu-Armenia links Return to discussed version 

message: I just read at a Armenian news site that for now there is no official Armenian anthem as there are plans to change it. I think its worth bringing it up as Azerbaijan is not allowed to publish its unofficial national motto (Land of Fire), then why is Armenia allowed to publish its unofficial national anthem? The news site is posted below:
http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg173190.html
Could somebody get a good look at this, I think we need to remove the national anthem of Armenia for now.
:That's true, but only for a limited time. The song “Mer Hayrenik” ceased to be the national anthem on December 6 as the Armenian parliament failed to meet a constitutional deadline for reaffirming it or introducing a new state symbol. According to this link , they're going to keep the anthem. Hope that cleared it up.-- Davo88 04:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian Anthem 

message: compare Aa's edit summaries at 17:37 and 19:23. priceless. dab (𒁳) 19:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: a lesson in intellectual honesty

message: Ministry of Health of Armenia - As  i know, they change their domain. Unfortunately, i don't know their right url, but for a long time, this one is closed.
And the last: Dzer nor tarin shnorhavor, Hayer ! Dr.Gangino 17:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Government links

message: Hello all. Given my own concerns and other suggestions on Talk pages, I've created new maps for the three Caucasus nations. I've already added them to the articles for Azerbaijan and Georgia, and since this page is currently protected, I thought it might be helpful to post it here. The current map isn't centered well on Armenia, and the cropping seemed sensible. 
Adlerschloß 15:42, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New map 

message: Look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushku To find more about Phrygians and Mushku or Mushki(Mushkitsi) These are Georgian tribes, they have nothing to do with our history. We are never remembered by the name Phrygians, but yet we are rememberd by Nairi etc etc. Greeks say there is no link with Assyrians referring to Phyrgians as Mushki, yet Moshchoi which Greeks use is Georgian tribes. We have always called ourselves with the name Armen. The most common Armenian name. A nationality just doesnt forget its name, or change names sometime in their history, it doesnt work that way. Ararat arev 18:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, but it can have main components, like the English have the Britons, Angles, Saxons, etc. -- Davo88 19:07, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I have told you many hundred times that that's wrong; desist repeating patent fallaciousness. Thanatosimii 02:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I am speaking about his pretelection for not distinguishing between nhr, nhrn, and nairi. however, as to the armenian presence in Armenia earlier, I still have yet to hear a real ANE scholar quoted. Thanatosimii 03:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Phrygian issues 

message: These links:
*Doing Business in Armenia
*Enterprise Surveys: Armenia
*Privatization Database: Armenia
*Infrastructure Projects: Armenia
Were added by an editor whose only contributions have been to promote the World Bank Group (doingbusiness.org is a World Bank Group project). We have recently uncovered significant edits promoting this organization (see this WikiProject Spam discussion). In the interest of our neutral point of view policy and conflict of interest guideline I've moved the links here for other editors to consider. I personally think that four data links from one organization may be overkill without competing points of view.  Also, Wikipedia has articles on the Ease of Doing Business Index and the World Bank Group which may be more appropriate than an external link.  Thanks -- Siobhan Hansa 13:54, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links from the World Bank Group 

message: Can we put a Armenia dance photo that was there already. What is the problem with our dance in Culture section? 66.81.158.107 20:01, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Armenia#Culture]] dance image 

message: The photos by this guy were obviously taken in Soviet times and are painfully out of date.  They need to remain in the "Soviet" section of this article, or be removed....  they are painful to look at as representations of todays Armenia.  --RaffiKojian 00:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we use pictures from yerevan.ru/35mm site? We have to ask permission I guess. Vartanm 09:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I uploaded those pictures and I agree they are painfully out of date (they were taken in 1975), but they're the best free use images I could find to represent life in Armenia.  I have seen much more recent pictures, but we just need to ask permission, etc.  I say we give yerevan.ru/35mm a shot. -- Aivazovsky 18:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, we need an alternative.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 18:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are there any wikipedians in Armenia who could help us out with this? -- Augustgrahl 00:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jacob Schmidheiny 

message: http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2006
The corruption in Armenia is rapid getting worse, this is not a POV, it's a fact. 
By omitting the current years data and not by showing the previous years rank, the rapid trend cannot be seen.
Of course there are Armeninans on this site who want to paint a very pretty picture, and keep facts out of the article.
However, this behavior is very Anti-Armenian, by hiding/ignoring the problem it cannot be corrected.--Craig Thomasian 10:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see WP:AGF -- Augustgrahl 14:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My changes to that paragraph are based on sources. Armenia is no longer considered Mostly free nor more free than Norway in 2007 report. Also saying that corruption is increasing rapidly is WP:OR because source doesn´t state that. The source says that Armenia´s corruption perception changed from rating 3->2,9 so only very little. Also the number of ranked countries increased so Armenia´s lost only a few positions. Anyway it´s not allowed to speculate based on primary source - feel free to find source saying opposite but until then it has to stay like this. Thank you.--Pethr 15:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

text: BTW it´s so funny how I was accused of anti-Armenian agenda, POV and whatever few posts ago and now I´m actually someone who is trying to hide facts to make Armenia look better:) Please see the sources and find other source for increasing corruption, it would be OR to base it on CPI. Thank you.--Pethr 15:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  CPI 

message: His image is included because he is mentioned in the culture section. -- Aivazovsky 11:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair use image can be used only as critical commentary which this is not. It's basicaly illegal to have that image here. See WP:FU C8 (The material must contribute significantly to the article (e.g. identify the subject of an article, or specifically illustrate relevant points or sections within the text) and must not serve a purely decorative purpose.) and counterexample 8 (An image of a living person that merely shows what they look like.). This is not article on Aznavour, fair use can't be claimed. Sorry about that. (Not to mention that you have added that single sentence about Aznavour only after I removed the image. The sentence also has its flaws: "Famous Armenian composers, signers, and musicians from Aram Khachaturian to Charles Aznavour are also widely popular in Armenia." Famous Armenian singers are widely popular in Armenia? Oh really?)--Pethr 13:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pethr, that section is the worst in the article. I would welcome a third party editor to neutralize it. As it stands now certain parts are just too funny for an encyclopedic article.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 15:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the worst few days ago, I don´t have much knowledge on Armenia to make big changes there. I can correct economical rankings based on sources like I did recently but the point here was that Aivazovsky added this funny sentence about Aznavour only to justify fair use of his photo. I wanted to stress that this doesn´t justify the fair use anyway and I´m removing it again. I really don´t want to edit war over this (or anything else) but there is no fair use rationale for this image in this article and I highly doubt that such case can be made. Anyway I welcome input of others on this but until this is resolved please don´t put the photo back since it´s copyright infringement/invalid fair use. Thank you.--Pethr 17:13, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

text: He wont re-add the image again since fair-use rationale cannot be possibly used. However, I don't mind another image of Aznavour since he has very strong connections (ie: his presence and help after the earthquake, continuous support via his foundation etc.) with the country, I don't think it's necessary but I wont object to a pd image.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 17:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn´t object at all. I searched a bit and didn´t really find anything useful. But he is really well known hopefully someone will have his photo. May be try asking on Wikipedia:WikiProject Armenia. Will you take care of this?--Pethr 18:11, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I won't readd the photo again and I apologize for adding the cheesy line in order to justify keeping the image on the article.  I'm sure we can find alternatives (though a PD image of Aznavour might be difficult to come by).  Until then, I think we should use the "Armenian musicians" image on there.  I agree, though, the culture section needs work. -- Aivazovsky 00:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Aznavour

message: I think that the "World War I" heading should maybe be changed to say "World War I and the Armenian Genocide"... it seems that the Genocide is an event that's too important to not at least be included in a heading.  I know there's another article on the topic and that the Genocide is referred to in the paragraph right underneath that heading, but shouldn't the Genocide figure a little bit more prominently by at least being included in the heading?
Also, I seem to recall Armenia being ranked #1 in some sort of economic measurement last summer - perhaps it was some sort of ranking by The Economist magazine?  Does someone know something about that?  Perhaps it could be added to the "Economy" section? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MalteseKnight (talk • contribs) 21:34, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A couple possible changes? 

message: Can somebody verify in Armenian press what is the status of soldiers in Iraq? Armenian diaspora really claims them to be "peacekeepers" but I find it hard to believe that some country would call Iraq peacekeeping operation. They are part of Coalition Forces under Polish command so peacekeeping is AFAIK out of question. Thank you.--Pethr 17:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure, I know for a fact that the Armenian troops in Kosovo (under Greek command) are classified as peacekeeprs for sure.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 19:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, KFOR is peacekeeping mission authorized by the UN. It's very different in nature and status to the Iraq War.--Pethr 19:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's supposed to be "non-combatant" unit. I read somewhere their mostly doctors.  --Vartanm 04:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peacekeepers? 

message: This is wrong, every Assyrian will tell you that the Assyrian vassal state / tiny independent kingdom in mesopatamia adopted christianity first.Tourskin 00:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps we should talk about how Assyrian queen Semiramis killed our king Ara the Beautiful -- Vartanm 04:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  First nation to adopt christianity? 

message: This article says intermarriage between Jews and Christians is "rampant."  Perhaps "commonplace" or "routine" would be a better choice of words? Elorincz 02:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intermarriage