Talk:Irving Gill

message: I had to remove the L. J. Woman's Club photo. Almost nothing in the photo was Gill's work. The iron gate is a crappy new "Tijuana Special" from the past couple of years, replacing the architect designed one. The sign is new and not Gill's work, the light fixture shown is a junky newer version and the landscaping I'm not sure Gill would have liked. Additionally, the photo showed nothing of what make this project special. This article does need more photos, but not that one.  Erikdhanson (talk) 03:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the photo of the west side of the Museum of Contemporary Art. The photo shows absolutely not one bit of Gill designed material. Essentially, this is  picture of a building that was built to replace a demolished Irving Gill building and did nothing whatever to show Gill's style, or even anything he saw in his lifetime. I look forward to photos that show Gill's work. Erikdhanson (talk) 00:19, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I took some Marsten house photos in May 2008; my camera isn't super high def but perhaps one of the shots is more appropriate than the somewhat dark one used here. My flickr stream with Marsten snaps starts here. Let me know if you want me to post any of these shots to WP. Binksternet (talk) 01:50, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Thanks. I like very much your photo of the Cossitt House, across the street from the Marston house. Its a wonderful house, deserves to be known more, and more Gill than Hebbard (in my opinion) than the Marston house, and thereby more fitting for the Gill article. Besides, the Marston House has its own page. We do need pictures on the Hebbard page.Erikdhanson (talk) 20:24, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, marvelous house. Too bad I wasn't bold enough to ask the residents for closer access! Binksternet (talk) 00:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've uploaded two Gill-designed house images here: :File:Gill house San Diego example 1.jpg and :File:Gill house San Diego example 2.jpg. Both are on the same block as the Marston House, but I'm not expert enough to which is the one you wanted. Do with the images what you will. Cheers! Binksternet (talk) 09:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Photos

message: thumb|Club entrance as photographed in 2008
I changed the name to La Jolla Women's Club. Binksternet changed it back, asserting that the name is La Jolla Woman's Club. I see that does appear to be the current name. But in that case, the National Register of Historic Places has it wrong; the NRHP lists it as La Jolla Women's Club according to the infobox generator at . It is NRHP # 74000546. How should we resolve this? (After settling on the name, one of should write an article about the place, since it is on the NRHP.) --MelanieN (talk) 18:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: PS It appears the NRHP DOES have it wrong, since the nomination form  in 1974 called it the Woman's Club. --MelanieN (talk) 18:10, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a tricky question. There's not much consistency out there, even within reliable sources. Looking at the San Diego History Center website, searches show 37 results for La Jolla "Women's Club", and 17 results for La Jolla "Woman's Club". But the San Diego city website has it reversed: 21 results for "La Jolla Woman's Club", and 6 for "La Jolla Women's Club". Google Books (which can be a blunt instrument, but still useful) shows 1,290 for "Women's" and 2,580 for "Woman's". What to do when reliable sources are split? Good question. I'd probably vote for Woman's as somewhat more predominant, but wouldn't be distressed either way. Dohn joe (talk) 18:22, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been there to take photographs, though none turned out to my satisfaction. The club certainly calls itself the La Jolla Woman's Club. What do we care if the NRHP gets the name wrong? They have misspelled a number of other names; they are not perfect. The club has never been named anything different than La Jolla Woman's Club. Their self-identification should be honored. At any rate, the Historic American Building Survey (HABS) got it right  as did the Historic Architecture and Landscape Image Collection . The San Diego Union-Tribune  and California State Librarian Kevin Starr  get it right. The book The Architecture Traveler spells it correctly. Binksternet (talk) 20:01, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we wouldn't care if it were only the NRHP that got it "wrong". But look at the links I provided above - lots of reliable sources, including the San Diego History Center, the city of San Diego, architecture and regional reference works, and yes, even the Union Tribune get it "wrong" an awful lot. As you know, WP doesn't give much weight to any "official" name. We do care about what reliable sources call something. At some point, if enough reliable sources use the "wrong" name, it becomes the "right" name for our purposes, because that's what people call the subject. In this case, those sources are split, so the question is not frivolous. Again, I support "Woman's" in this case, but not because of any "self-identification" that we need to respect (if we relied on self-identification, we'd have to change a lot of article titles). Instead, it seems that "Woman's" has an advantage in reliable-source usage, which makes it the better title. Dohn joe (talk) 20:50, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I find I have somewhat overstated the long-standing nature of the name. At the beginning in 1894 the club was named the Current Events Club. In 1900 it changed to the La Jolla Woman's Club, the name it has held from that moment on. See Who's Who Among the Women of California, page 86, published in 1922. Binksternet (talk) 21:06, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah yes, 1922. A wonderful year. The year in which News Notes of California Libraries wrote about the passing of Miss Nina T. Waddell, one-time president of the La Jolla Women's Club, thus inaugurating a long and robust history of reliable sources being split about the name of that institution.... Dohn joe (talk) 21:22, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

text: I think clearly it should be San Diego Woman's Club here. That is what they call themselves. Binksternet was quite right. My main concern about the NRHP is that when you write an article about a NRHP-listed place you are supposed to list it the way the NRHP lists it. But when they are clearly wrong, as in this case, I think we should title it Woman's and maybe add a parenthetical note to the article explaining why the NRHP has it differently. (If you are trying to look something up on the NRHP site and you misspell by even a single letter, it won't find the entry.) --MelanieN (talk) 02:27, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: And BTW, Dohn, I think the correct name of a place or person is what they themselves say it is - unless Reliable Sources are all-but-unanimous in doing it some other way. Otherwise you could find yourself perpetuating a lot of common error - changing Johns Hopkins University to John Hopkins, for example. --MelanieN (talk) 02:32, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that bar ("all-but-unanimous") is too high. While WP:COMMONNAME does say: "inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources", WP still does prefer the common name over the official name in most cases. I'd say that if reliable sources are in, say 70% or 80% agreement on a name, then we should go with it, too. I don't think Johns Hopkins is a good example. While it might be more commonly known incorrectly in conversation, I think you'll find that the vast majority of reliable sources do in fact use the correct name. In fact, there will be very few cases where reliable sources "get it wrong". But when they do (again, I'd put the bar at ~70-80%, barring other relevant factors), WP should reflect it. Otherwise, we start straying into deciding what something "should" be instead of reporting what it is, and that slope can get slippery. Dohn joe (talk) 17:54, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Now we are veering off topic. Let's hold naming convention conferences at the appropriate naming convention pages. Binksternet (talk) 19:39, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, but about NRHP names, when different from a common or current name that seems best:  In the NRHP wikiproject, what we usually/always do is use the "correct" name for the article, with a redirect from the NRHP name if different.  We usually/always show the NRHP name in the NRHP infobox, however, and also in the text mention that it "was listed on the NRHP as XYZ House".  That indicates clearly to some readers that THIS is indeed the article covering that NRHP place which they saw reference to somewhere else.  If the NRHP name of a California place has an obvious typo or otherwise is actually wrong, we write a note, hopefully with documentation, at wp:NRIS info issues CA#Property names, and we proceed use the corrected name in the article.  If the NRHP name includes double hyphens, i.e. "--" (apparently as a substitute for an em-dash or an en-dash in the limited NRHP computer system) we replace that by a single hyphen instead in all usage (i.e. in the article title, in the NRHP infobox title, in text mentions.  About "Woman's Club" vs. "Women's Club", both usages are common:  see List of women's club buildings, mostly U.S. NRHP-listed items.  "Womyn's Club" has never been observed before my writing it in this sentence. :) Hope this a) seems reasonable and b) is helpful here.  --doncram 06:02, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: La Jolla Women's/Woman's Club

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