Talk:Tanya Plibersek

message: I'm just wondering what a certain part of this text has to do with the statement:
:Tanya Plibersek was criticised by some LGBT groups over Labor's bipartisan actions against the legalisation of same-sex marriage. Despite being married herself, Plibersek told The Sydney Morning Herald...[etc., emphasis is mine]
Her own marital status would only have relevance if she was herself involved in a same-sex relationship. Thus the use of a "despite" clause is incorrectly applied. Cyril Washbrook 10:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coming out of nowhere 

message: Additionally, I'd question the relevance of this statement: In a July 2007 interview on Meet The Press, Plibersek refused to criticise the Howard government's detention of Mohamed Haneef. Plibersek said the Labor Party "supported the (Howard) Government's actions." The fact is that this matter is outside her portfolio and consequently, she would merely have repeated the party's stance at the time. This shouldn't be a specific personal criticism of her. I'm also removing this, although relevant discussion in reply is welcome. Cyril Washbrook 10:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello Cyril. (Link to diff of removed content.) I just read the Gerard Henderson reference provided. It seems Plibersek was interviewed and asked about Haneef. She could have just said "no comment" or "ask the relevant minister", but instead she made a comment about Haneef, despite it being outside her portfolio. Plibersek's comment, as quoted in the reference, seems to support the Howard government's actions on Haneef. Gerard Henderson then points the finger at Plibersek, whom he accuses of being a member of the left, and says it is "historic" for agreeing with Howard. I think that if the words come out of Plibersek's mouth, then it's fair game to quote them, and also any commentary on them. She seems to be taking a high-profile position on a lot of issues, with interviews on Meet The Press, and also her Sydney Morning Herald column. She seems to be turning into a commentator, so should she only be responsible for comments about her own portfolio? I think the previous content on this subject in the article should stand. --Lester 22:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ministers and shadow ministers have the right to articulate party policy without needing to refer it to "the relevant minister". The fact is that at the time, the Dr Haneef case was highly publicised and dominated the public agenda. Labor had made its stance very clear, and Plibersek made her comment based upon that. There's no indication that she arrived at her response through an informed personal opinion - rather, it was an opinion informed by party policy and party considerations. I feel that the edits should still stand. On another part of your reply, the fact is that ideological commentary regarding "left" and "right" does not necessarily align an issue to a person. Gerard Henderson is a well-known conservative and to accuse Plibersek of being of the left does not increase the direct personal relevance of the Haneef case to her. Cyril Washbrook 02:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've examined Prester John's subsequent edit after your own restoration of the Dr Haneef comments, and I think it probably strikes the right balance between our differing interpretations of its relevance. Cyril Washbrook 02:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Haneef comment

message: This whole article reads like it was written by her staff. It's got a bland, public-service press release feel to it.165.69.2.1 (talk) 23:36, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Rather than criticise an entire article (oh so easy to do), please advise where particular issues are so attention can be brought to them. Thankyou. Timeshift (talk) 01:51, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure what user:165.69.2.1 is referring to. However I seem to remember an older version that said she was heckled at a LGBT rally. Now it just says she marched in a parade.--Lester 03:07, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the fact that the majority of sources/references quoted in the article are media releases, miniterial statements, and/or extracts from Hansard is the main point that 165.69.2.1 may have been making. I certainly agree that there are parts of the article that look like an ALP advert, to some extent. For example, quoting that Plibersek has raised, three times in Parliament, her views on same sex discrimination is a little over the top. This is especially the case when there is no context, given that (I would assume) her seat of Sydney has the highest concentration of same-sex couples in Australia; and that many voters in her electorate may have differing views to what Plibersek has stated in the media. Another case in point is ref 9 (Housing) takes us straight to the home page of the FACSHIA - Social Housing Initiative. This is a little clumsy, as it provides no critique of the program and the web page is all 'Government speak'. I would be more impressed if we had public commentary or informed debate about the initiative from respected news sources and/or political journals. I'm not too sure of the need for quoting her margin in the 2007 election. Whay is this relevant, unless all margins are quoted, as the author is demonstrating a significant increase/decrease in margin. The fact that the margin increased by 2.12% doesn't really tell me what her margin is right now - or what it was before. Finally, taking us to an Excel file of ABS data on Housing stats is VERY clumsy. From looking at the data, it is not easy for the average user of Wikipedia to determine the stated claim that .... the average First Home buyer home loan increased from $260k (Sept 2008 pre boost) to more than $290k by Dec 2009, at the expiry of the boost.' Jherschel (talk) 14:34, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and why is Tony Abbott's comment in there about homelessness? How does that relate to Plibersek. It relates to Abbott, and the issues of homelessness, but not her. Jherschel (talk) 14:39, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

text: i totally agree, you can spot staffer articals 10 miles away
118.209.141.103 (talk) 13:32, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's articles. And anyone could come along and contribute to articles in such a way, why would it necessarily be a staffer or anyone from the politics field from that matter...? Timeshift (talk) 06:14, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: POV??? Neutrality? 

message: one off media comments do not count for WP articles. all politicians have made comments in media on a variety of topics, but we don't list them as a separate subtopic called "political positions". viewpoints that attract ongoing and significant media attention is what we include. the home owner grant increase was not a Plibersek viewpoint but came out of the Federal cabinet economic stimulus, to somehow say this is a political position is stretching it when she is merely delivering as a minister what her cabinet as agreed. LibStar (talk) 04:27, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't even looked at the issue in question, but to say one off media comments by MPs are not suitable for articles is sheer rubbish. Every comment is taken on it's merit. We have many wikipedia guidelines to ensure contributions are suitable for the article... "no one off media comments" isn't one of them. Timeshift (talk) 06:16, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  as I said if it attracts significant and ongoing attention then it may be worthy of inclusion. We don't include every single statement said to the media especially if it is only reported in one source. LibStar (talk) 10:40, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not necessarily. Everything is judged on it's merits. We have things like WP:CONSENSUS and WP:IAR you know. Timeshift (talk) 22:14, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  if we included every one off statement made by a politician in the media we would have extremely long articles. WP:IAR should not be used as an excuse for including every single statement. I am also going off the normal format we see for Aust ministers, this article seemed to have selective statements, many comments Plibersek says in the media are simply her party's line. LibStar (talk) 00:51, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not arguing to include every statement. I'm saying any statement, like any contribution on wikipedia, is judged on it's merits. Timeshift (talk) 01:03, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: political positions

message: We have them in all Australian MP articles but a user feels that this sole article can be different and not have predeccessors/successors in the infobox. If this is to be changed then it needs to be done through proper channels and not for one article only. The changes made, at the least, require a consensus before they can be re-added. The onus is on the contributor with the new text to gain consensus for disputed edits. I have reverted the change. Timeshift (talk) 05:52, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the predecessor and successor fields from the infobox as it made it completely out of proportion (almost as long as the article) contrary to its role of providing a succinct summary of the article per WP:IBT. I don't see any reason why to obscure the more relevant information about the subject by providing extensive see also type links to multiple articles of limited relevance. Of course the same applies to other MPs as well. If this has been discussed before please indicate where has been a consensus established for always including predecessor/successor fields, contrary to the main function of the infobox. --Elekhh (talk) 06:05, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There isn't a discussion. But this is one of 226 current Aus Fed MP articles and you are making a unilateral disputed change with no consensus support. Please form some at a more suitable page. Timeshift (talk) 07:58, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: From my point of view you did "unilateral disputed change" as well. A more friendly and collaborative tone would be welcomed. Which page do you consider more appropriate to discuss the content of the infobox in this article? --Elekhh (talk) 08:05, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: A disputed change being one from the status quo. Consensus is required for a disputed change, not a disputed status quo. Perhaps a better page would be Wikiproject Australian politics talk page. Timeshift (talk) 09:56, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you assuming that the status quo represents consensus even if hasn't been discussed? Is the first to edit a page define consensus? Can't follow that logic, but I note that you haven't replied to my argument in support of my edit. --Elekhh (talk) 11:52, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If a change is disputed, consensus is required to move away from the status quo, not the other way around. I've already made it clear why it belongs there. Timeshift (talk) 19:28, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand that for you consistency of content between all Australian MP infoboxes is more important than the Purpose of an infobox. I invited feedback from the relevant WikiProjects. --Elekhh (talk) 22:05, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: My consistency of content between all Australian MP infoboxes is more important than successors and predecessors at all. Either way i'm now not too fussed, but years ago I actually didn't like them either. Now i'm used to them. And consistency is of very high importance. Thanks for allowing a consensus discusion to take place. Timeshift (talk) 05:10, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Timeshift is absolutely correct in this. There is no good reason to remove prede/successor information from just one MP. This is something that needs discussion - wide discussion - before being implemented. I would be astonished if any consensus for removal was found. --Pete (talk) 05:36, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I personally find that following the link to a particular position (division, ministry, etc) which always includes the chronologic list of all those who held that position, provides a far better historic overview than predecessor/successor fields. I am not particularly fussed either when these fields appear once, but when there are many (as in this case), the problem becomes acute, as the infobox is diluted to the extent that is not a summary any more (which was its original purpose). Maybe a way forward would be to not use these fields for ministry positions (non-elected, faster changing, more often changes to the scope of each ministry). That would keep most infoboxes unaltered, retain consistency and address the most acute problem. --Elekhh (talk) 05:43, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not the best place to discuss the issue, nor is it appropriate to edit-war over one article. --Pete (talk) 07:01, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally I'm unfussed as to whether it's in the infobox or in the footer of the article (where more information can be stored without bunging up the page margins), but I agree with Timeshift in this particular case. Orderinchaos 10:01, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for all the feedback. To some extent I was acting based on WP:IAR, but I acknowledge the conservative consensus regarding change. I will not pursue it any further on this page. --Elekhh (talk) 11:46, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Predecessor/Successor in infobox 

message: A recent editor has repeatedly changed the sentence defining Emily's List, to being a group that supports homosexuality and abortion. This may or may not be so, but it is not supported by the current reference. The changes have been reverted twice by different editors. To avoid an edit war I have brought the issue here.
The pre-existing wording defined Emily's List as "a political network that supports progressive women candidates to be elected to political office" and referenced this with a link to the Emily's List Australian website. A subpage of the Australian Emily's List website also includes the sentence "We believe women must have control over their own bodies and choices in their lives." This supports the claim that the organization supports abortion, as do more overt statements in the Wikipedia article for the US Emily's List. 
However there's no equivalent statement "supporting homosexuality." There is this: "We strongly believe in the right of every woman to enjoy equal rights and privileges before the law, regardless of sexual orientation," but that is a statement on avoidance of discrimination, not a definitively "pro-homosexual" position. I'd argue you would need something more to make this claim in any one-sentence summary of the organization.
It should also be remembered that this is a one-sentence definition of an organization, in an article not about that organisation but about a third party. So we may not wish to include every position Emily's List holds, unless there's some reason why it is relevant to Tanya Plibersek specifically. 
So, there seems to be two options - either keep the pre-existing wording, or add the mention of abortion (with a reference). The homosexuality claim would need a different source.In the interests of completeness, I reckon the first statement can be included , but not the second unless an alternative source can be found.
Other views welcome as always. Euryalus (talk) 03:27, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That looks like garden-variety POV pushing to me, and I've reverted it. The reference given was to a "Christian, pro-life, pro-family Australian Non-Government Organisation"'s newsletter, which obviously isn't a reliable source for such a claim. Nick-D (talk) 07:51, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The nature of Emily's List, in the context of this article. 

message: As there as been a run of single purpose/"through away" accounts posting BLP violations and POV pushing material on this article over the last few days I've semi-protected the article for a week. I suspect that the number of people behind these accounts is smaller than the number of accounts... Nick-D (talk) 05:37, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected 

message: The article Abortion in Australia uses the term "Anti-abortion groups," in line with AP terminology.
:Anti-abortion groups have been criticised for exaggerating the number of abortions in Australia. Perhaps most prominently, Tony Abbott (as health minister in the Howard Government) claimed in 2004 that 100,000 women choose to end their pregnancy annually.
The AP recommends using the terms 'anti-abortion' and 'abortion rights' to describe sides of the Abortion debate without using political framing techniques. There is some contention with these terms, with anti-abortion side of the debate not wanting to be labelled as 'anti'. See United States pro-life movement#Controversies over terminology
Currently there are 4 articles:
* Anti-abortion movements
* United States pro-life movement
* Abortion-rights movements
* United States pro-choice movement
It seems that for articles referring to the United States, the 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice' terms are preferred, while international discussion more commonly uses the terms 'anti-abortion' and 'abortion rights'.
I've changed a link from pro-life to Anti-abortion movements as I think this reflects the AP terminology, which I think is correct for an article about Australia. If this is opposed, please discuss this on the talk page.
Additionally the Abortifacient page uses the term mifepristone rather than RU-486, which is in line with international terminology.
:Common abortifacients used in performing medical abortions include mifepristone, which is typically used in conjunction with misoprostol in a two-step approach.
-- Aronzak (talk) 01:11, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Really not a big deal, i've made the change from pro-life to anti-abortion for you. As for RU-486/mifepristone, here it's commonly known as RU-486 so that's what we should be using. Timeshift (talk) 01:13, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Cheers. I've added a seealso link. -- Aronzak (talk) 01:28, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is the generalised seealso link relevant to Plibersek's biography? I've removed it. Timeshift (talk) 01:38, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abortion politics terminology 

message: In articles where an individual is married to some other notable person it is normal to highlight that fact. Pilbersek is married to Michael Coutts-Trotter who is a very notable figure in australia society. This should be mentioned briefly in lead. Such a minor inclusion Any objections? And if so, exactly why? Brownlife (talk) 20:53, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Coutts-Trotter is notable, but vastly less so than his spouse. It is not usual to mention spouses in the lead unless they are directly relevant to their spouse's notability, which is clearly not the case here. Lucy Turnbull, for example, is not mentioned in the lead for Malcolm Turnbull, and she is vastly more notable on her own than Coutts-Trotter. Coutts-Trotter is mentioned in the infobox and in the personal life section, which is easily sufficient. Frickeg (talk) 22:32, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: But Lucy Turnbull, is a relative nobody unless for Malcolm her husband. Whereas Coutts trotter has been the centree of controversies whether he was her husband or not. Lucy has never had an individual news story written about her whereas Coutts Trotter has had many many in many many reliable sources about his range of controversies. Very very big difference to lucy turnbull? i really don't see the parallel or the point you are trying to make? If Tanya was married to Alan Border the Australian cricketer I am pretty sure we would be mentioning it briefly in the lead. Would you mind expanding your argument a bit more Frickeg?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brownlife (talk • contribs) 02:57, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Lucy Turnbull is a former Lord Mayor of Sydney. She is not a "relative nobody" and is very self-evidently far more significant than Coutts-Trotter, a senior public servant but a significantly less public figure. As I said, Coutts-Trotter's current mentions in this article are more than adequate. Frickeg (talk) 08:29, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

text: Watch your mouth and civil. I note that you Ivar the Boneful have been the subject of numerous sockpuppet investigations so dont attack other editors motives.Brownlife (talk) 12:35, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Have I? That's news to me. Or are you referring to the people who start throwing sockpuppet accusations around as soon as they get into an editing dispute? Because I've had my fair share of those. Seems to be the flavour of the month to cry "sockpuppet" as soon as someone runs out of actual arguments. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 14:01, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: See when you attack others you get it back. However given you've denied ever being involved in a sockpuppet investigation I need to prove the fact obviously. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bozzio. There seems to be other similar accusations directed at you as well such as this one for example . And by the way your argument made no sense at all. Even Lucy Turnbull's article mentions her being married to Malcolm Turnbull at the end of the lead! Many articles do this. Completely overturning your assertion that articles dont do this. Any other actual arguments to offer? Have a nice day.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brownlife (talk • contribs) 20:13, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

text: The Chloe Shorten article also mentions her marriage to Bill in the lead Ivar. As I said any actual arguments to offer?Brownlife (talk) 20:25, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

text: Indeed. It belongs in the relevant spot in this article, not in the lede. The Drover's Wife (talk) 22:32, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

text: Yes. Did you miss the fact that Ivar first sprouted the bad faith accusations Frickeg? Regardless I dont give a crap about it being in the lead. The point I was making was Ivar's argument that this is never done in article leads was totally and utterly wrong! and they had no actual argument. We are discussing articles where it is done. However I do see your point and that's that.Brownlife (talk) 23:08, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed.Brownlife (talk) 23:08, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

text: Nice try Brownlife, but you missed one . I didn't realise your definition of "numerous sockpuppet investigations" is one withdrawn SPI and one accusation. You clearly need to work more on your smear tactics. But congratulations on showing what a little baby you are and your lack of arguments. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 05:59, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

text: Not even Kevin Rudds article mentions his wife in the lead, there is no need to mention a person partner in the lead.  It could also be seen as a bias by including a male partner for a female politician yet articles about male politicians dont. Gnangarra 13:49, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: As I've said Lankiveil I don't care but your example of Lucy Turnbull with Malcolm being her husband is in the lead of her article. I'm beginning to think the motivation on display here from Labor voters? is more to try and keep the fact that plibersek is married to a convicted heroin dealer as far out of view as possible than make it more visible.Brownlife (talk) 13:53, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The lead purpose is to summarise the article highlighting what makes the subject notable, in this case Plibersek is notable for her position in politics not for her husbands activities.  Lucy Turnbull is notable for her roles as Mayor but, she is notable internationally for being the wife of the current PM.  Wikipedia is not here to synthesise, create theories, or conspiracies out thin air, WP:BLP has very clear guidelines on what can written about an individual what you have just stated is in complete violation of BLP, it also goes against WP:AGF and WP:Etiquette Gnangarra 14:23, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: You do realise I said 2 days ago the debate is over? Got it. Please chill.Brownlife (talk) 20:48, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep I see. Despite me disagreeing consensus is not to include in the lead. Got it.Brownlife (talk) 02:51, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Michael Coutts-Trotter 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110322110625/http://www.facs.gov.au/sa/women/pubs/violence/np_time_for_action/snapshot_summary/Documents/A_Snapshot.pdf to http://www.facs.gov.au/sa/women/pubs/violence/np_time_for_action/snapshot_summary/Documents/A_Snapshot.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131029195154/http://www.australiantimes.co.uk/news/news-from-australia/news-in-australia/controversy-as-abortion-drug-ru486-added-to-pbs.htm to http://www.australiantimes.co.uk/news/news-from-australia/news-in-australia/controversy-as-abortion-drug-ru486-added-to-pbs.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070930023507/http://www.greenleft.org.au/2004/592/32048 to http://www.greenleft.org.au/2004/592/32048
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The file  on Wikimedia Commons has been nominated for speedy deletion. View the deletion reason at the . Community Tech bot (talk) 13:06, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used in this page has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: The first paragraph contains "She is currently the Shadow Minister for Education and Shadow Minister for Women" but that is (as of February 2022) not consistent with details in the remainder of the article.
Peter Jones
115.64.39.2 (talk) 09:38, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears that details of the 2021 cabinet reshuffle hadn't been added to some parts of the article. Hopefully the article should be consistent now. Dauwenkust (talk) 04:22, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistent content