Talk:Principality of Sealand/Archive 1

message: I think it's not an oil platform but an old wwii military platform Joao
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You're right.  Changed.  Justfred
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I think this article gives too much credence to Bates' claims. Especially the statement "The United Kingdom asserts no claim over the territory, and generally treats Sealand as if it were an independent state" -- that is not true. For one thing, a man-made platform isn't territory unless it is built on rocks which are exposed to the surface at least some of the time. The tower is in British territorial waters (although in the past it was not), and therefore is subject to British jurisdiction. So the claim "The United Kingdom asserts no claim over the territory" is false. Bates claims that Britain couldn't extend its territorial waters to include Sealand, since Sealand was by then supposedly an independent state. But it almost certaintly is not an independendent state, since by any reasonable interpretation it fails to meet the Montevideo convention criteria. The United Kingdom does not "generally treats Sealand as if it were an independent state", the UK government simply ignores Bates. 
Again, the claim "Great Britain has never formally recognized Sealand's independence, but as affirmed by several decisions by British courts and government agencies, Sealand enjoys a de facto sovereignty" isn't true. The United Kingdom recognized it as outside their territorial jurisdiction prior to their extension of territorial waters to 12 nautical miles. Since then it has been under UK jurisdiction. If there has been no official UK pronouncement to that effect (beyond the one concerning the extension of the territorial sea) with respect to Sealand, it is simply because the UK government and courts regard Bates as a kook and choose to ignore him.
And I could go on... -- SJK
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Even after the extension of waters to 12 nm, there have been several interactions with UK courts; firearms incident in 1990, etc.; where they ruled they didn't have jurisdiction.
There's a lot of precedent on the extension-of-waters front which favors Sealand.  When the treaty was signed, this issue came up repeatedly.  Otherwise, neighboring countries could claim the territory of others.
Sealand being of artificial construction is unique also, since it was constructed illegally by a third party (UK) during WW2, for a purpose other than land extension.  Sealand existed and was a country long before the relevant UN treaties on artificial structures in the sea.  Several promiment law professors have basically said Sealand's status as land is the same as reclaimed land in Holland or elsewhere.  I can include hypertext links to these documents.
I'll include a summary of the legal issues in another edit of the article (and re-edit the HavenCo article to be a bit more factual; I just cut and pasted quickly to get something up) -- Ryan Lackey
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I would love to see copies or references to these court decisions. Frankly, people trying to start their own countries have a long history of interaction with courts, and in all the cases I've seen, they've misrepresented court decisions as being favourable to them that were anything but. (Witness e.g. the "Republic of Texas" and the ICJ, and the "Kingdom of Hawaii" and the PCA.)
How was the UK construction of it illegal?
Secondly, even if you are correct in stating Roughs Tower as being territory, that doesn't make Sealand a state. Merely claiming unoccupied territory is not sufficent to bring a new state into existence. At the very least it needs to comply with the Montevideo convention criteria, and likely needs to be recognized by other states as well.
And the extension of waters argument only works if Sealand is a state. -- SJK
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Someone added to the article:
:Thus, the situation of the Vatican, where citizenship (approximately 170) and residency are primarily based on occupation, is less clear than the population of Pitcairn Island, which has a population approximately the same as Sealand (<50) but whose population is primarily hereditary and permanent. 
Pitcairn Island is not a state, it is a British dependent territory. Therefore the size of Pitcairn Island is irrelevant to the issue of the Montevideo Convention criteria. -- SJK
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Wiki really needs cvs; you clobbered a long submission I was making to /talk
The UN has repeatedly upheld the right of self determination of "dependent territory" non-self-governing people.  If Pitcairn wanted to become independent, they would 1) have every right to by UN agreements 2) would be encouraged to do so by the UK (there was a white paper circulated by the UK to british dependent territories about ~2 years ago which asked them to do so, since the EU is now trying to force the UK to either give overseas territory British passports or make them independent (perhaps commonwealth, though).  I was living on Anguilla, another british dependent territory, at the time, and it was a major issue.
Sealand's claims, regardless of validity, are much more complex than Hutt River, Republic of Texas, etc., even if only due to touching on admiralty/maritime law (which is very complex) and that the issue has now dragged out over nearly 60 years; the laws have actually changed several times in the interim.
There are perhaps 7 major points:
* Artificial territory/structures as "land" -- affirmed by Montego Bay 1982, and some prior
* Right of self-determination of any people (affirmed by UN, UK, EU)
* extension of territorial waters not applying to territory or facilities or anything else of consequence -- this was a condition of many states being willing to agree
* Actions of Sealand government 1966-present
* Extraterritorial status of Sealand w.r.t. UK 1945-1966+
* Opinions of various experts
* Actions of other nations and organizations
I'll make 1-2 paragraph wiki articles about each topic and then deep-link onto the legal site with original documents.
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Okay, for starts, where is this legal site? -- SJK
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The most relevant single opinion is the Vitanyi opinion; a copy is at
http://www.venona.com/rdl/opinion01.html -- Vitanyi
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Whatever Vitanyi has to say, one has to ask: is his view shared by the majority in his field? In any field you will find minorities with some ideas far from the mainstream, even professors. Of course, sometimes the minorities turn out to be right. However, more often than not, the majority is right. This is especially the case with a field such a law. The law tends to closely follow the opinion of the majority of the legal professions, since it is to a significant extent constituted by their opinions. I strongly suspect the majority of experts in the field of international law would disagree with Vitanyi. -- SJK
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He (was at the time) one of *the* top maritime international law authorities.  I *think* he's dead now; he was presumably quite old when it was written (1970s).  A few people at law schools in the US have found a lot more information in the process of writing journal articles on Sealand, which is what I'm pulling together for a legal site.
Even the UK cabinet stuff from ~1968 said the legal situation was entirely likely to go against the UK.
The most accurate/useful article for wikipedia is probably to just make it clear it is under debate, and point out the various issues, and then provide details as to what Sealand is actually like in practice (aside from the sovereignty issue, which is only one aspect)
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Even people top of their fields can be wrong, and people at the top of their fields can have strange opinions that end up being rejected in their field. That Sealand is an independent state is pretty likely to be an example of this. And international law has changed in quite a few ways since the 1970s.
Secondly, I haven't actually seen the UK cabinet stuff, but you have to distinguish two issues: whether the UK had (or has) jurisdiction over Roughs Tower, and whether the Sealand is a state. They may well have felt they were on shaky legal ground on the first point, but I doubt very much they thought for a moment they'd have a problem on the second. Vitanyi's musings aside, if the issue of "is Sealand a state" came before a British court (or for that matter, just about any other court), what answer do you think they'll give? Its almost certain the answer is no. They'd think "if we let small numbers of private individuals establish new states, absolute anarchy would soon result. There would be new states popping up everywhere." Once they start thinking like that, they will adopt a suitable legal position to support it. (As to the Liberia or Orange Free State or Transvaal arguments, let me simply point out that they occured in a different historical period and involved several orders of magnitude more people than Sealand does.)
There is absolutely never going to be any chance of any court or government in the world formally recognizing Sealand as a state. I'm willing to bet any amount of money on that. -- SJK
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If you bet "any amount of money" and can back it up, it's not a problem.  I can do exactly what Taiwan did, and pay ~3 small countries (Grenada, etc.) and build nice roads for them, about $50m each, in exchange for recognition.  This is cheating, though.
If "is Sealand a state" came up before a British court, I think they would almost certainly try as hard as they possibly could to not answer that question specifically, but to rule on other points.  There are many possible avenues for this kind of legal challenge, and the EU human rights legislation only adds to it.
Sealand is more plausible/compatible as a new state than the other "micronations" due to the conditions for establishing Sealand no longer being possible -- the ammendments to the law of the sea in 1982 *specifically* prohibiting such actions in the future.  After Sealand was proclaimed, the UK immediately went out and destroyed the other remaining offshore forts left over from the war (there were 6 total), to prevent similar kindso f things.  Recognizing Sealand does *not* make it possible to do this again.
This is why AU/NZ send someone every year to many of their strategic uninhabited islands in the pacific, and why the prince of Tonga was so quick to invade when people occupied a reef in his territory.
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Accepting Sealand as a state would set a precedent. Even if the particular means by which Sealand came into existence was closed, people would look for other loopholes. Even if no harm would came in itself from recognizing Sealand, why would any state want to (except possibly for you bribing poorer ones)? Most countries in the world would have an exceedingly low opinion of what you are trying to do.
Frankly, you are a whacko. Anyone foolish enough to think a small group of private individuals can just start their own state without an army or without any serious international support is a whacko. Your legal arguments are irrelevant: people can find psuedo-legal arguments for just about anything. Even if a very small minority of legal experts (at least some of whom are long dead) supports you, that doesn't show that you aren't a whacko: it just shows that even distinguished legal experts can be whackos at times as well. The law is ultimately a creature of politics, and no amount of abstract legal argumentation can prove something which is an absolute politicial impossibility to be legally binding. -- SJK
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The legal case is only important in as much as it helps in practical realization of sovereignty.  One route is having a massive military, enough to intimidate the US and UK.  Another way is by winning the PR battle, either by getting a powerful ethnic/religious group on our side (e.g. Israel/US), or by solving a political problem (FRY), or by being relatively inconsequential (most caribbean nations).  The legal argument is interesting in the abstract, but is only one factor in the reality of the situation.
I think that we are continuing to exist shows that we've made it more painful to attack us than to ignore/tolerate.  And we persist in making money, and have sufficient technical means to accomplish our goals, using crypto and tamper-resistance.  And we have other states who are entirely willing to set up additional datahaven zones for HavenCo.  We have sufficient recognition to do what we want, and then trend over time is certainly in our favor.
There *are* people who have tried this kind of thing -- using jurisdiction to avoid or evade various regulations in the past.  They have -- made poor countries with not a single sailor into registrars of a good percentage of the world's shipping -- made islands in the caribbean with initially nothing into the *biggest* reinsurance centers in the world -- created headquarters for some of the world's biggest companies on small islands in the middle of nowhere -- etc.  And as you mentioned, the various African states of the 1800s, plus various caribbean states of ~20-30 years ago.
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Wonderful article.  Several months ago Wired magazine had a wonderful illustrated piece on Sealand.  If I find the reference, I'll add it to your references. -- Gjalexei
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The article states:
"British Goverment documents, now available to the public under the 30 year expiration of confidentiality, show that the UK drafted plans to retake the fortress, but such plans were nixed by the Prime Minister due to potential for loss of life, and concomitant legal and public relations disaster."
Were these plans made before Roy Bates moved in?
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I have asked for permission to use some pictures from Seland to make the articel look better. see Talk:Sealand/emails giskart 21:23 Dec 6, 2002 (UTC) (IRL walter vermeir)
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The plans to invade Sealand/Roughs Tower were made *after* Roy Bates moved in and declared Sealand.  Until that point they were completely abandoned by Trinity House, the relevant UK government department. -- Ryan Lackey
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Of course, to Sealand's credit, they haven't been trying to use their status as a seperate nation to their illegal benefit, like quite a few other attempts at micronations.  -- User:Wirehead
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"This means that it is unimaginable that a case like Sealand will ever occur again. "
:What about newly formed land in international water due to volcanic activities? Will that still leave a loop hole that allow history to repeat?
67.117.82.5 23:31, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: old talk

message: That "the legal status of Sealand continues to be under debate" should not be removed from this article.  The legal status IS under debate.  Perhaps it is not under debate by anyone that matters; perhaps one or the other side does not have a leg to stand on.  But the fact is, the legal status IS being debated.  Quit removing this. Jdavidb 02:22, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  No matter which side you're on, the legal status is under debate 

message: Can Sealand meet the Montevideo Convention?  Roughs Tower belong to Britain.  Should Britain decide to demolish its property (as it did with the other forts) what happens to Sealand?  It will have no defined territory.  The situation here is different from Rose Island, as that micronation was the property of it ruler.
Why is the fact the a UK court declines jurisdiction claimed as de facto recognition?  Acts of Parliament define a court's jurisdiction by geography and grant that court certain powers.  Recognition of foreign states, even de facto, (which in this case meant by omission)is not a function of the Courts.
Surely the illegal occupation another's buildings results in a squat not a principality.
garryq 12:51, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: This article doesn't claim that Sealand is its own sovereign nation, and it doesn't claim that it isn't. It merely shows both sides of the debate. -Branddobbe 15:35, Apr 19, 2004 (UTC)
True, but the article is disputed in fact and POV.  Apologies for my style, I am used to presenting "devil's advocate" opinions in my offline work.  I hope these points are useful in deciding POV for this item, especially if someone wants to rewrite it.  In the meantime I have edited the "postal trivia" section as this is NPOV in its implication.    garryq 17:19, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory; (c) government; and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states. 
I say:
(a) this appears to be affirmative, given (b)
(b) quite well defined - Roughs Tower was abandoned and is now potentially no longer British property
(c) given as stated
(d) capacity and desire seem to be apparent
-- UtherSRG 17:45, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  What did Britain do? 

message: There are a few websites around with quite good images of Sealand (and Prince Michael) during the HavenCo era, e.g. 1 and 2. It seems implausible that the copyright could be lifted from any of these images, but perhaps we could link to the websites? Lots of people are no doubt interested in seeing what it looks like today. -- Jao 13:49, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: See Talk:Sealand/emails. I have asked them permission about this befor. Walter 12:59, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images of Sealand 

message: I posses within my personal collection multiple examples of mail bearing Sealand stamps/cancellations to the exclusion of all others, that have been succesfully transmitted internationally. I am happy to provide scans of these as required.Gene_poole 14:37, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Postage Stamps

message: I have removed the wording which seems to claim that because some envelopes have passed through the mails Sealand is recognised as independent.  The Royal Mail is far from 100% efficient.  Letters don't get delivered, or second class is delivered before first class.  If Sealand wants to use its stamps to claim independence, let it join the UPU.    garryq 14:40, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Postal Trivia 

message: Would suggest merging these as Legal is only one line. -- EuroTom 19:23, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger of Judicary and Legal professions sections 

message: The debate whether Sealands claim of sovereignity is or is not disputed seems to be quite hopeless. In the meantime it would be nice if someone could exchange the flag on the site with the correct Sealand flag. Sorry, I did not manage. In the heat of the debate the obviously necessary improvements on the article should not get out of sight. --Oooooo 22:24, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag