Talk:Sarakatsani

message: Again, I deleted the phrase "in which residual Vlach language words and syntax can still be traced" because it does not make any sense.  The definition of Greek language is sufficient for anyone interested in the lingustic details of the language.  
I deleted the phrase "to some extend mixed with Aromanian words" because it has no meaning.  It only implies that the Sarakatsani might have been speeking Aromanian at some point of time which is not the case.  Besides, what language in the world is not mixed with words from other languages.  Is Aromanian a pure language which does not include words from other languages?  The Sarakatsani dialect is an idiom of Greek language which icludes words from many languages of their surrouding people.  Turkish words, albanian words, even words from western european languages can be found as well as Aromanian words.  Is this supposed to mean something?  I dont think so.
This page is pretty much all wrong. I will try to explain
1. "The Sarakatsani are a group of Greek (and Greek-speaking) transhumant shepherds" correct
2. "mainly located in the Pindos Mountains" it should be "mainly located in the Pindos mountains and in particular, the Agrafa mountains which is the southern part of Pindos untill the beginning of the 1900s.
3. "The Sarakatsani traditionally spent the summer months in the Rhodope Mountains, in what is today Bulgaria" this may be said only about the so called "anatolites"(easterners) or "polites"(comes from the word Poli meaning Constantinople).  This part of Sarakatsani used to spend their summers in either the Rhodope Mountains or the mountains of Falakro in Serres and Drama perfecrures of Greece and either returned to the coast of western (today Greek)Thrace and eastern(today Turkish)Thace or went west to the coast of the Black Sea.
4. "The migration would start on the eve of Saint George's Day in April and the return migration would start on Saint Demetrius' Day, October 26th" sounds too poetic to be true. First of all Saint George's Day does not have a standard date in Greek calendar.  It is true though that they used to leave for(and return from) the mountains depending on the weather around these dates
5.  "After 1947, certain groups of Sarakatsani were not allowed to leave Bulgaria and enter Greece" True, but only refers to these Sarakatsani that have stayed in Bulgaria.  I must empasize the fact that most of the Sarakatsani are in Greece
6. "They were subsequently settled in Bulgaria and they became partly Bulgarized. In Bulgaria these Sarakatsani are known as Karakachans" true
7. "while in Romania they are called Saracaciani" may be true but as far as i know there are absolutely no Sarakatsani in Romania
These are some comments for the first paragraph. This first paragraph does not include any comments about the Sarakatsani who live in Greek Thrace and Eastern Macedonia, Greece(very much related to these Sarakatsani In Bulgaria), Central Macedonia, Greece and FYROM(the so called "Kasandrinoi" because they used to spend their summers in Halkidiki(Kassandra)), in Thessaly, Ipeiros, Sterea Ellada, Peloponnese and so on.  It seems to me that you are implying that Sarakatsani only live in Bulgaria. 
To be continued... 
:On the contrary I would say that the first paragraph is too greek-focused, as if the karakatchani only live in Greece but a part of them were somehow by chance stuck in Bulgaria recently (and indeed that they inhabit other parts of the Balkans is not mentioned at all)!  As a Bulgarian my impression about the karakatchani has been quite different. The sentence "The Sarakatsani are a group of Greek shepherds" sounds quite a lot like greek propaganda to me. They are greek-speaking (with their own archaic dialect, in fact) but this does not imply greek ethnicity for the last centuries. The karakatchani in Bulgaria do NOT consider themselves greeks (no, not bulgarians either, and I dont see how this could be a result of governmental policy). Maybe the present-day "greekness" of the karakatchani in Pindos could be a result of purposeful assimilation by the state of Greece where they were stuck after it closed its borders? As you see this argument can work both ways based on the mutual mistrust of our peoples. More crossreading and NPOV needed! For now, please, replace the "greek (and greek-speaking)" with "greek-speaking" only.  Koliokolio 01:20, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Quality of this page

message: Sarakatsani and Karakachans are two variants of the same word, referring to the same concept.  The spelling 'Sarakatsani' tends to be used in Greek contexts, and 'Karakachans' in Bulgarian settings, but as the articles both say, they are the same people.  They are listed in a standard dictionary of Greek (Babiniotis) as variants (σαρακατσάνος and καρακατσάνος), probably coming from the Turkish karakaçan < kirkaçan 'who flee to uncultivated land'.  So I vote:
* Merge --Macrakis 04:47, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge proposal

message: Re the addition and re-addition of the claim that the Sarakatsani speak a "Doric" dialect (): this claim is indeed highly surprising, since it is communis opinio that all modern Greek dialects except Tsakonian derive from Attic Koiné. I'd like to see an exact quote in context for this claim. Maybe what the source said was that they speak a "northwestern" dialect of Modern Greek? That would not be the same as "Northwestern Greek" in the context of the ancient dialects. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just put this link to inform the reader about what a northwest dialect is. Since it's mentioned in the text I think we should put this. Of course it doesn't mean that their modern dialect is a pure doric one, but it stresses some kind of relationship between the ancient and the modern northwest dialect. - Sthenel 12:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait, I'm not sure you understood my point. Ancient "northwestern Greek" is a form of Doric, true. Modern northwestern dialects (such as Epirote or Roumeliote Greek) have nothing to do with Doric. There's no continuity between them. They are descendants of Koiné just like all other modern dialects. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Some of them may have conserved isolated admixtures of local dialectal words, possibly. But the overall phonological system of them, like of all other modern dialects, is solidly Attic. That's consensus in the literature. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:10, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Doric"? 

message: May I suggest you find solid third-party sources for:
:"However, according to a theory, the Sarakatsani were not always nomads but only turned to harsh nomadic mountain life to escape Ottoman rule."
The current sources are not very good, and are certainly not third-party. (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources). Though it is plausible that the Sarakatsani were "not always nomads", the part about "escaping Ottoman rule" sounds unlikely.
It would also be helpful to find third-party sources for other assertions made in the article. For example, who are the modern "Western European scholars" who "endorse" the theory that the "Sarakatsani are lineal descendants of the Dorian tribes".  That sounds like typical 19th-century romantic nationalism. The alternative theories also need to be reported in a more WP:NPOV way.  
It's also surprising that the article doesn't mention the best-known ethnographer of the Sarakatsani in English, John Campbell (Honour, family, and patronage; a study of institutions and moral values in a Greek mountain community, Oxford, 1964). --Macrakis 22:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reliable sources and NPOV

message: Karakoçan —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 3210 (talk) 21:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karakachani  means for donkey in Turkish. And also it uses for disrtrict Karakoçan (karakochan)

message: Is there any possible relation between Sarakatsans (and generally many parts of Greece, especially Peloponesian, or "Stereoelladites") and Albanians?? I am greek and sarakatsanos myself. I have never heard of ANY theory connecting us to the Albanians. But taking in account the "fustanella" wich was used both by Sarakatsans and other south Greeks AND Albanians, and the almost common music with Albanians (polyphonic AND "klarina") can somebody write about that topic if he/she has some further knowledge??  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.130.43.28 (talk) 18:04, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible conection with Albanians???

message: They were speaking aromanian a few time ago and now they have many aromanian words. This fact is well-known ad it's clear that they have aromania origins , not greek origin. Most probably they are part of the farshirot aromanians. Some Sarakaciani still speak aromanian language in Bulgaria. They are the same with the sarakatsiani in greece. I have no doubt they are aromanians not greeks, so please remove this article from greece wikipeoject.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Camaradianis (talk • contribs) 00:24, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh-huh. Got any decent sources to substantiate these claims? Even if the Sarakatsani were to have spoken a variant of Aromanian, such a phenomenon would hardly hamper their ability to self-identify as ethnic Greeks. Language does not define ethnicity my friend. Deucalionite (talk) 00:55, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: sarakatsiani are aromanians

message: Why did you delete my phrase? I think you know about the necromantic customs after a slaughter of a lamb.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes (talk • contribs) 22:32, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Necromantic Customs

message: It's simple. In Bulgaria there are greeks and karakachans and they never mix each other. But right now the karakachans become greeks.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.134.87.38 (talk) 07:06, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karakachans in Bulgaria are not greeks 

message: Zenne who is a man dancer  with woman cloths in weddings. Zennes exist in the weddings and festivals seramonies. It is same as nomadic yoruk Turks and also nomadic Karakachanis. user:3210
:Zenne has nothing to do with Sarakatsani. There is no such custom of men dressed as women in Sarakatsani tradition, be it on weddings or otherwise. Could you provide reference to your doubtful claim? 79.103.234.72 (talk) 13:29, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zenne (man dancer  with woman cloths) same as nomadic yoruk Turks and Karakachanis 

message: Both Athenean and Alexikoua have seen fit to remove a Bulgarian source about a possible Vlach or Slav origin of the Sarakatsani, claiming that is not a scholarly source. Now apart from the fact that there is no rule in Wikipedia that only academic sources may be used, this is an report by an agency  one of whose tasks is the research of ethnic issues, so it can certainly regarded as a scholarly source. As for the statement that a more serious source is needed for such a claim, this makes little sense. There is obviously such a claim and there is no need of a special academic source (though this source can certainly qualify as academic) just for proving that an alternative theory exists. The need to include alternative theories is an important Wikipedia policy, so the removal of this information on such flimsy pretexts is rather disruptive. Kostja (talk) 07:28, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: What is disruptive is your edit-warring. The source is self-published and does not meet the requirements for WP:RS. A government agency on minorities? We all know what that means in the Balkans. Athenean (talk) 19:33, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: When citing Wikipedia policy, take care to actually read the relevant pages. Self published sources most certainly do not refer to government publications (see for example, the synonyms). According to your logic, even census results would not be admissible as sources. Kostja (talk) 07:07, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The Slavic "theory" is clearly fringe and you know it. Only Bulgarian scholars support it. There is not a trace of Slavic culture among the Sarakatsani. And what kind of source is it that doesn't even mention the possibility that they might, just might, actually be of Greek origin? Athenean (talk) 07:34, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: With their unclear origin, it's a bit dubious to talk about mainstream opinion of the Sarakatsani origin. Kostja (talk) 08:36, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the mainstream bibliography presented it's clear that this community belongs to a specific national backgroud.Alexikoua (talk) 09:28, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, after some thought, I suppose it would be ok if the disputed statement were suitably qualified, i.e. something like "According to a Bulgarian government agency...". 15:52, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Calling the disputed source a "study" is a little too tendentious to my liking. "Study" implies some sort of scholarly depth, of which this source possesses none. Barely two sentences on the Sarakatsani, and no bibliography. It's more of a pamphlet than a study, so let's just go with the more neutral "publication". Athenean (talk) 17:00, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claims about alternative origin of the Sarakatsani 

message: Deleting the simple reasons that lead the Aromanian side to consider the Sarakatsani as their own breaks the logic of the webpage. One cannot have a paragraph were one should expose the Romanian hypothesis filled with only Greek input. To anyone unfamiliar with the hypothesis, please search the internet for images, songs and stories of Vlach and Sarakatsani, and you will get Romanian propaganda like. So it seems "pure ancient Greek Hellens" like Sarakatsani look, dress, live, sing just like the Vlachs and unlike the other p.a.G.H.s out there.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vlach facts (talk • contribs) 20:47, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is your additions are entirely unsourced, which is a violation of WP:OR. If you want to add something, you have to make sure it is properly sourced. We can't just add something because we "know" it to be "true". Wikipedia is a "free encyclopedia" in the sense that anyone can edit, but not in the sense that anyone can write whatever they want. There already is a section on Sarakatsanoi and Vlachs, no one is deleting it, but we can't just whatever we like. You want to claim that there are "striking" similarities between Vlachs and Sarakatsanoi? Sources, please. You want to add that there is a lot of intermarriage between the two groups? Again, sources are needed. Also, no one is going to search the internet for images, songs and stories of Vlachs and Sarakatsani, that's not how we do things around here. Athenean (talk) 19:38, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stop deleting the Sarakatsani and Vlachs article 

message: There is also the issue of the Karakachan dog. The dog in question is related to most Balkan shepherd dog breeds, which are basically all molossi, but it is considered some sort of a national breed in Bulgaria.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Athenianepirote (talk • contribs) 22:03, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karakachan dog 

message: Users Alexikoua and Kostja reverted my recent edits without any reasonable explanation. What I did: 1) I added sources using the Template:Cite book, 2) I corrected some citations using the Template:Harvnb, 3) I reworded the introduction to be more precise (in my opinion) without changing the overall meaning, 4) I corrected the terrible layout of the article, which looks like a notebook, replacing all these small paragraphs (one or two sentences each) with normal sized and cohesive paragraphs without changing the overall content as well, 5) I corrected several mistakes (syntax, repeats etc). The explanation of these two editors were "rv explained adjustments" and "not an improvement" respectively. In Wikipedia:Reverting#When to revert you can read: 
*"Revert vandalism and other abusive edits upon sight but revert a good faith edit only after careful consideration" (I doubt if any of them compared the two versions)
*"A reversion can eliminate "good stuff", discourage other editors, and spark an edit war. So if you feel the edit is unsatisfactory, then try to improve it, if possible – reword rather than revert is a useful guideline. Similarly, if only part of an edit is problematic then consider making a partial revert by modifying only that part instead of reverting the whole edit." (too lazy to do it?).
I don't know what's an improvement for them, but this start-class article needs improvement. Since nobody owns the article, it's a start-class article and IP users are free to edit, reverting anything isn't the right way. So, discuss it! 87.203.74.226 (talk) 12:16, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Many adjustments are still unexplained, like the removal of categories or the wikisource link. In fact Aravantinos' theory deserves a place in the article, but I can't see any additional improvement in this.Alexikoua (talk) 13:10, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unexplained reverting 

message: An English doc thesis from Columbia University at:
https://allthingsvlach.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/bogdan-thesis-final.pdf
Some researchers concluded that Sarakatsani are from Vlach family but assimilated to the Greek language.
There are many opinions. All must be known.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.124.187.138 (talk) 10:08, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doc thesis about Sarakatsani 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There are some dubious claims at to whether there is connection between Yörüks and Sarakatsani. The problem is, it implies that Arnold van Gennep's hypothesis is a likely scenario while intentionally omitting the more widely accepted theories as mentioned under History in Sarakatsani. It seems like a propaganda attempt used by some history revisionists websites.
If this isn't dubious as I think, then should it be included as well in Sarakatsani? If not, should Yörüks and Sarakatsani be edited as to clarify which are the most prevalent theories regarding their origin? (I am not an avid wikipedia editor, so please feel free to edit the articles) 79.103.234.72 (talk) 14:14, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not very familiar with how wikipedia works, so don't know what you mean exactly by "inline". By the way, if you decide to edit that article please check: "An earlier offshoot of the Yörüks, the Kailar or Kayılar Turks, were amongst the first settlements in Europe." as well. Does it mean what I think it means? If so this article has been the target of a very funny troll.79.103.234.72 (talk) 16:05, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Connection between Yörüks and Sarakatsani claims in [[Yoruks]] wiki 

message: Could you please provide an exerpt from the source that backs the statements made in your recent edits saying that The Sarakatsani are recognized to be non Greek, and possibly Turkish? This seems like a very broad statement to be made without attribution in wikipedias voice. Perhaps that is the opinion of one person, but is that the generally recognized truth?ResultingConstant (talk) 19:56, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  turkish 

message: This point is not serious and speculative, there is no serious linguistic source which proof this. All the added source are travel books ore roman, based on philhellenism source from the 18.century, which we can not take as serious source for linguistic argue. And if the sarakatsani are by doric original, so the Aromuns and Albanians must have same origin, because the sarkatsani, aromun and albanian have absolutely same culture, just speak different languages.--31.10.129.226 (talk) 10:07, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doric origin? 

message: "The Sarakatsani in Bulgaria self-identify as Greeks, considering themselves the "purest of Greeks." They also call themselves Bulgarian Karakachans, since they live in Bulgaria, where their ancestors, in a few cases, were also born." Information from the article that proved by source. BILL1 (talk) 14:20, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I have provide source based on a study in Bulgaria carried out bt the Open Society Foundation which has stated: Частично асимилираната, но все още относително изолирана и кръвнородствено сплотена каракачанска общност в България днес се колебе в стремежите си към гръцка, отделна каракачанска или българска идентичност . In English: The partially assimilated, but still relatively isolated and blood-related Karakachan community in Bulgaria today is hesitant in its aspirations for a Greek, separate Karakachan or Bulgarian identity. Jingiby (talk) 14:33, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: PS. That means obviously part of them declared themselves by the census as Bulgarians, another part as Greeks, but others as Sarakachani, i.e. neither Greeks, nor Bulgarians.Jingiby (talk) 14:36, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

text: Sorry, but this is nonsense. Every man is free to choose his personal identity: national, ethnic, cultural, religious, community, political, sexual etc. You must provide reliable source before that. Jingiby (talk)
 I believe this too. However, I reffer to the family's roots. You have the right to deny your origin, but you cannot change it. On the same way, you can deny your parents (very sad) but you cannot change them. BILL1 (talk) 15:48, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

text: Origins are not identities. By the way I probably remember your story. You might have another user-name before. Jingiby (talk) 15:53, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sarakatsani in Bulgaria