Talk:Tomás de Torquemada

message: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14783a.htm
This is the link I removed from the bottom of the page, and you can see by a quick glance this "Catholic Encyclopedia" is apparently from the dark ages. While apologizing heavily for the article's subject, the encyclopedia, among other things, seems to refer to Islam as "Mohommedianism". I haven't heard that in... well, quite frankly, my entire life in a serious context. The entire thing is unencyclopedic and adds nothing to this article.
If you have never encountered the term "Mohommedianism" or "Mohammedan" as a synonym for Islam in "... well, quite frankly, my entire life in a serious context", then the depth of your historical reading has been extremely shallow.  Until quite recently, historically speaking, the terms "Mohammedanism" or "Mohammedan" were quite commonly, and even preferentially, used.  The 1953 Edition of Encyclopaedia Britannica, for example, has article titles that include "Mohammedan Architecture", "Mohammedan Art", "Mohammedan Campaigns", "Mohammedan Institutions", "Mohammedanism" and "Mohammedan Law".    —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dionysius17 (talk • contribs) 16:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  removed link 

message: I removed "Also those that draw comparisons to the Fictional Jedi Knights of the Star Wars Expanded Universe and the Historical Knights Templars, draw parallels between Darth Vader and Toquemada as they both brought the downfall of the respective orders and were the leaders of great purges to wipe out the order." from 'modern allusions to Torquemada', as Torquemada never tried to wipe out the Knights Templar, nor did he bring about their downfall. It seems a bit much of an honour for a man born in 1420 to have been instrumental in the bringing down of an order that was actually suppressed in 1312. Thomas Antonius 08:26, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not to be insulting, but you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and have never read any historical book about Jesus. Whether you believe He was God or not, he did exist. Any serious historian knows as much. Bobby Neirs (talk) 02:39, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparison Torquemada - Darth Vader 

message: This Torquemada was voted into "most evil men in history" along with Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. in a recent Discovery Channel programme. Maybe this could be mentioned. 195.70.32.136 14:04, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fitting company for him 

message: the article implies that torture was part of the auto de fe but following the link to the article specifically about the auto de fe it contains a statement that torture and burning were not part of the auto de fe... it claims torture never happened after sentencing... i'm just casually reserching but i would like to know. which one is it? bloody scourge of torture or religious ritual after sentencing and before execution?
From what I understand, the auto de fe was when the sentences were publicly made. If you were repentant, you were sent off to perform penance; if you were not, you would be handed over to the civil authorities to be sentenced by them. --Bobby Neirs (talk) 02:42, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Torture in the auto de fe 

message: I think in the film Meet the Parents, Ben Stiller's character made a comment about another character in the film calling him "Dr. Torquemada". If anybody knows anything about it they can add it to the modern allusions section. --Nehrams2020 07:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I will change it. --Managerpants (talk) 16:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Modern Allusions

message: I deleted several 'he was bald' from the main text but it still sounds very confusing Dr. Pnz 23:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This Article Has Been Vandalized 

message: Hmm. "torqueo" or "torquere" is Latin for "torture" and "quemada" is spanish for "burned"... exolon 03:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: The Robert Silverberg novel seems to reference Torquemada in one chapter.  There is a character by the name of "Torquatus", which could easily be seen as a latinization of "Torquemada".  They also share a ruthless sense of righteousness and condemned to death people thought to be impure or corruptive influences on society.  Torquatus is not Catholic, or even Christian, of course, but then the whole premise of the novel is about an alternate history where Christianity never emerged, so that's not surprising.  The only other problem is that this section of the novel is set in 2568 AUC (1815 AD), over 300 years after Torquemada's time.  However, the obvious similarities in both name and character make it seem that Silverberg was making an intentional reference, even if the dates are a bit off.  Is this worth adding to the "Modern allusions" section? Lurlock 17:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference in "[[Roma Eterna]]" 

message: Does the line "It is reputed that one of Torquemada's prefered methods of extracting confessions was to shove a red hot iron into the anus of the accused." really belong in the section "Question of Jewish descent"?
mkm  155.9.10.2 14:07, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  re torture preferences and section appropriateness 

message: I have removed "In modern times, Torquemada has become symbolic of the great evils perpetrated by the Roman Catholic Church during the Inquisition."  "great evils" is subjective and obviously not a neutral POV as required by Wiki rules.Kmerian 20:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: POV Violation

message: There is so much wrong here. For example Torquemada dying of syphilis? That is found nowhere. Only one source seems to be used and it's POV. Henry Kamen's book The Spanish Inquisition points out that the Inquisition was far ahead of civil courts in respecting legal due process. The Inquisition never made to many parts of Spain, especially after the 1st century of its existence. Someone needs a complete rewrite and to eliminate the myths. I removed the worst examples, but there is still work to be done.
This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
Much has been written of the inhuman cruelty of Torquemada. Llorente computes that during Torquemada's office (1483-98) 8800 suffered death by fire and 9,654 were punished in other ways (Histoire de l'Inquisition, IV, 252). These figures are highly exaggerated, as has been conclusively proved by Hefele (Cardinal Ximenes, ch. xviii), Gams (Kirchengeschichte von Spanien, III, II, 68-76), and many others. Even the Jewish historian Graetz contents himself with stating that "under the first Inquisitor Torquemada, in the course of fourteen years (1485-1498) at least 2000 Jews were burnt as impenitent sinners" ("History of the Jews", Philadelphia, 1897, IV, 356). Most historians hold with the Protestant Peschel (Das Zeitalter der Entdeckungen, Stuttgart, 1877, pp. 119 sq.) that the number of persons burnt from 1481 to 1504, when Isabella died, was about 2000. Whether Torquemada's ways of ferreting out and punishing heretics were justifiable is a matter that has to be decided not only by comparison with the penal standard of the fifteenth century, but also, and chiefly, by an inquiry into their necessity for the preservation of Christian Spain. The contemporary Spanish chronicler, Sebastian de Olmedo (Chronicon magistrorum generalium Ordinis Prædicatorum, fol. 80-81) calls Torquemada "the hammer of heretics, the light of Spain, the saviour of his country, the honour of his order".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.108.117.53 (talk) 01:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lot's of POV 

message: It starts out okay with some basic recountings from history (I suspect cribbed from a public domain encyclopedia)
Then we get gems like this:
Torquemada was a certainly relentless adversary; however, the black legend that has grown up around him fails to take into account that Torquemada was one of the chief reformers of the Spanish Inquisition.
No refs to back up that whitewashing opinion whatsoever. Its maddening, what did he do or did not do as a reformer? Wikipedia at its finest. REF IT!... Just gonna blank this statement out. If it has some basis in fact it can be reinstated but this is a major POV issue.
It then goes on to list numerous trivia and pop culture references on Torquemada. So much so that it overwhelms and takes up a huge chunk of the article. Is this what the legacy of Tomas "Hammer of the Heretics" Torquemada? The article comes across like a bad joke that people make of the quality of Wikipedia. --Eqdoktor (talk) 08:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opinions as fact - Its Wikipedia. 

message: "This basic distrust for Jews, converts and otherwise, as well as the dubious sincerity of Moorish converts, was a driving factor in the implementation of the Spanish Inquisition." No. Spain was broke. The inquisition was institutionalized theft of Jewish property. Look it up. This so-called article would be laughable if it were not so poisonous.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.138.132 (talk) 18:54, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Must have been written by a Catholic propagandist. 

message: The writer seems to have taken the opinion that as long you are a faithful catholic torture is pretty much okay, and not so much of a problem really. I mean if Isabella liked it...  I hope this page can be fixed to present a more neutral, less obviously pro-catholic POV.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.84.4.94 (talk) 16:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article seems to be very one-sided 

message: In a conversation some years ago with Angel Alcala, author of The Spanish Inquisition and the Inquisitorial Mind, he mentioned that there no pictures of Torquemada were known to exist.
What is the provenance of the illustration here?
--Al-Nofi (talk) 19:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questin about the Picture 

message: What is all this vague imprecations of "severe" torture? The Catholic Church sanctioned three forms of torture, the rack, stress positions and waterboarding. No torture that can endanger the life of the suspect is permitted, because clerics cannot shed blood. An inquisition with Roman representatives or sanctioned by Rome abide to those rules. Ref. Homza, The Spanish Inquisition: An Anthology of Sources. Please, no more of those vaguely phrased and unproven assertions. Jonathan Chin
IMO, "severe torture" is a redundancy.  Mainly, I disagree with the logic of the sentence, "No torture that can endanger .... cannot shed blood."  There are procedures that can lead to death of the subject without blood being shed, and as far as that goes, there were clerics, such as William the Conqueror's associate Odo, who went into battle armed with a mace instead of a sword, in order to evade the very prohibition you mention.  Terry J. Carter (talk) 15:02, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just one question, folks. 

message: Another reference to Torquemada in modern fiction / drama is by Mr. Deity. It may be worth mentioning in this wiki article. In particular see this video, (he is mentioned after 3min 22sec). In the (fictional) plot Mr Deity remembers the dyer consequences of a prank call to Torquemada. 
Aberdeen01 (talk) 07:54, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern reference in fiction 

message: This sentence: "To stem the spread of heresy and anti-Catholicism, Torquemada promoted the burning of non-Catholic literature, especially the Talmud and, after the final defeat of the Moors at Granada in 1492, Arabic books as well." is not supported by this source:De Camp, L. Sprague, The Ancient Engineers, 135-6.
On page 132 of the same book it states, "Cardinal Jiminez, successor to Torquemada as Grand Inquisitor, had a haul of 24,000 books burned at Granada."
Therefore, I am removing said sentence and its source. If there is a source that supports said sentence then please post it here. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:21, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book burning 

message: ...a black cloak that had designs of hell’s flames or sometimes demons, dragons and/or snakes engraved on it.
Did the writer mean embroidered rather than engraved? Dick Kimball (talk) 14:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  sambeníto 

message: No study of Torquemada would be complete without quoting what is arguably the worst pun ever to appear in cinema.
I refer of course to Mel Brook's take on the Spanish Inquisition in "History of the World, Part I":
"Torquemada, do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada, do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada, do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it - you can't Torquemada (talk him outta) anything!" Partnerfrance (talk) 11:33, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mel Brooks 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It seems very strange for a search for "Torquemada" to turn up an article about an obscure comic book, rather than this article about the real person.  Having the comic book article referenced via an "other articles" link would be fine, but as the main article seems wrong.  Paul Koning (talk) 14:25, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article priority 

message: The video game Red Dead Redemption contains a location called Torqùemada.  (Torquemada is a settlement and a Mexican Army base of operations in Red Dead Redemption)
https://reddead.fandom.com/wiki/Torquemada
SquashEngineer (talk) 13:23, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add - In Popular Culture 

message: I removed two extremely serious flawed parts pertaining to the "converso ancestors" question in the Torquemada web page. 
I explain here why this was justified (short version: the references used do not back up the claim at all): 
I'll start with the second one (which helps to explain also why the first one is wrong too, see below):
"He came from a family of conversos (converts from Judaism); his uncle, Juan de Torquemada, was a celebrated theologian and cardinal[4] whose grandmother was a conversa. The 15th Century chronicler Hernando del Pulgar, a contemporary to de Torquemada and himself a converso, recorded that Tomás de Torquemada's uncle, Juan de Torquemada, had an ancestor, Álvar Fernández de Torquemada, who was married to a first-generation conversa.[5][6]"
A french author (whose main field of publication is antisemitism, Holocaust history and Holocaust denial about which he published inn peer reviewed historical journals), Gilles Karmasyn, has published online, in 2018, an examination of this question and, doing so, has produced a detailed criticism of this wikipedia part and its sources (here, especially note 7: https://phdn.org/antisem/torquemada.html). It took me some time to cross check each one of its statements (well many months in fact because I checked the whole study, not only the problem of the wikipedia page), but now I can concur. So here it is: no source, either primary or secondary, ever stated that Tomas de Torquemada's Uncle, Juan de Torquemada, had a converted grand mother. Hernando del Pulgar's Chronichles DO NOT (contrary to what is stated in this wikipedia paragraph) state such a thing AT ALL. First, Alvar de Torquemada was not "an ancestor" of Juan de Torquemada. He was his father. Second NO author (and not Hernando del Pulgar) ever wrote Juan's father was married to a conversa. He did not even wrote that his grand-father was married to a conversa (it was not the case, of course). The only existing statement made my Hernando del Pulgar was that some Juan's ancestors ("abuelos" meaning grand-parents OR even previous ancestors like great gradnparents or great great etc., the term beeing quite ambiguous) were from converso *lineage* (with no mention of any conversa and which does not even states thos ancestors were themselves converted, but only from converted lineage)... which sends any converted jew pretty far back in Juan's genealogy, so even farther in Tomas's). Gilles Karmasyn gives several historians' position that del Pulgar cannot even be trusted about such remotely jewish ancestors. 
The sources presented in the wikipedia article as backing up the (much incorrect in fact) statement about a converted grand mother are: 
5. Falk, Avner. A Psychoanalytic History of the Jews, Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1996, p.508 ISBN 0838636608
Which is provided with a direct link to the page: 
https://books.google.fr/books?id=z10-Xz9Kno4C&pg=PA508&dq=torquemada+marrano&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=torquemada%20marrano&f=false
Well: Avner Falk DOES NOT mention Juan de Torquemada, nor Hernando del Pulgar! So no,  Falk's book cannot be a source for stating (even wrongly) that Hernando de Pulgar would have written that Alvar de Torquemada was married to a conversa... Worst: Falk states (without providing any kind of source) that Tomas de Torquemada was himself a much perturbated jewish convert! This is of course a completely false and ridiculous statement. Avner Falk's book is totaly wrong, worthless and irrelevant here.
Second reference used for the same Hernando del Pulgar's fake statement:
6. "Tomas De Torquemada | Encyclopedia.com". www.encyclopedia.com. Retrieved 2019-12-01.
It provides a link to: https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/history/spanish-and-portuguese-history-biographies/tomas-de-torquemada
Where NOWHERE is to be found anything close to (or even far from) "The 15th Century chronicler Hernando del Pulgar, a contemporary to de Torquemada and himself a converso, recorded that Tomás de Torquemada's uncle, Juan de Torquemada, had an ancestor, Álvar Fernández de Torquemada, who was married to a first-generation conversa."
The only thing that can be read on this page is:  "He [Torquemada] was the nephew of a celebrated theologian and cardinal, Juan de Torquemada, who himself was a descendant of a converso."
This phrase is not even backed up with a specific reference, though, in the bibliography, one can find Hernando del Pulgar's Chronicle where, indeed he states that, far, far away exists a converted jew (Juan's ancestors beeing of converso lineage, in del Pulgar's words). So here (6) either, the reference does not back up the wikipedia paragraph content.
Remember that we are not even talking Tomas de Torquemada, but about his uncle, about whom no primary source states any converso origin. So that the whole part that I cited is worthless and should be removed.
Now, even before that part, in the second paragraph of the introduction one can find this:
"Torquemada, who himself had converso ancestors,[4][5][6]" 
As we have seen. 5 (Avner Falk) is totaly worthless: stating that Tomas de Torquemada was himself a jewish convert is plainly wrong. It does not back up that part in the introduction since it is a worthless source.
6. ("Tomas De Torquemada | Encyclopedia.com") does NOT even state that Tomas had converso ancestors, but only that he was the nephew of Juan who had converso ancestors, which in fact, does NOT even imply that Tomas would have (more remote of course) converso ancestors, since (for example), as Inquisition Historian Benzion Netanyahu remarks: Juan would have a converso ancestor from his mother's side BUT Tomas de Torquemada's father would be only a half brother of Juan with a different mother (see Gilles Karmasyn's page for details).  We also have spanish authors who explicitely state that Tomas de Torquemada was totaly pure and noble (Jeronimo Zurita). 
So, no, 6 cannot even be used as backing up "Torquemada, who himself had converso ancestors"
As for 4:
4 "Meditations, or the Contemplations of the Most Devout". World Digital Library. 1479. Retrieved 2013-09-02.
Well, this is a work by Juan de Torquemada himself and it does NOT contain anything pertaining to Tomas's or even to Juan's converso ancestry. So his does NOT back up "Torquemada, who himself had converso ancestors". It shoudl not be there either. 
So both parts that I quoted were removed because the references cited to back them up DO NOT back them up at all.
Gilles Karmasyn's study (see above) does in fact prove that, in order to be able to state that Tomas de Torquemada coudl have, somewhere, a converted jewish ancestor, one has to go very far, in fact far enough not to know anything for sure, and that the closest such ancestor would be a great great grandmother (or great great grandfather). Again: no primary source ever talks explicitely about a converso in Tomas's ancestors. The only primary source talking about Tomas's genealogy states that it was noble and pure. The few secondary sources that talk about Tomas's would be converso "ancestors" *always* rely only on Hernando del Pulgar's talking about Tomas's uncle, *Juan* de Torquemada, from which, in fact, deducing that Tomas himself is descended from a converso, is a bad idea, Pulgar beeing unreliable (in the eyes of several historians) and this "converso ancestors" beeing a very remote hypothesis...
For the reader's information, Gilles Karmasyn does study also the spanish and german versions of the Tomas de Torquemada wikipedia page and has pointed comparable flaws. 
I hope my explanations were clear.
Ernest (talk) 14:10, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no evidence that Gilles Karmasyn is sufficiently notable to be considered an authority here.--Aristophile (talk) 14:23, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I did use Gilles Karmasyn's study as a basis (and because he does provide his sources very thouroughly) and, as I said, I checked myself, but I justified each time why the sources do not back up the claim in this page. I did not rely on GK. I detailed in each case. You could have checked for yourself, or even discussed my demonstation, which you did not. It took you 5 minutes to reverse my edit, barely the time to read my detailed explanations. You did not bother to verify a single aspect of my demonstration. You would have realized for example how ridiculous the Avner Falk source is... In fact I don't understand such a brutal reversal, without discussing the issue Ernest (talk) 14:36, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Converso origins of Torquemada: the sources and reference used do not  back up the claim at all and are very flawed, so I removed the two parts stating there were some (detailed explanation below).