Talk:Musket Wars

message: If Angela Ballara is to be believed and there is no real reason not to, the standard interpretaion of the musket wars -echoed in this Wiki article, may be somewhat wrong. Ballara argues strongly and to my mind quite convincingly, that the Musket Wars were really not that different to pre musket wars in the sense that thet were violent, warlike expressions of the normal Maori tikanga or culture. As Ballara explains it, many of the 'fights' (a word used by the missionaries)were not actual wars or battles but part of the normal system of lore or kawa, to provide checks and balances on Maori behaviour.In particular she explains the system of taua muru as a  payback system used by Maori in cases of what they saw as relatively minor offending.The muru was equal to a system of "legitimized or acceptable" plunder of the perpetrator's resources.Ballara says that if the perpetrator accepted the plundering then the utu or payback was satisfied and that ended the matter. The plundering could be avoided by the perpetrator or their hapu offering resouces such as potatoes, pigs etc in compensation-when this was done and accepted, the matter was ended.
A twist, that was strange to Europeans, was that events like an accident to a chief were also punished by muru, as if the chief's accident had been bought upon him by a curse. Also strange to Europeans was the random killing of the first people a taua came across when engaged in a hunt for utu-regardless of if the victim had anything to do with the cause of the utu or not.Ballara says that even missionaries and christiam Maori who were with them, were not completely immune to this aspect of kawa.
I would appreciate comments or other sources that give this same intepretation.
I notice that the M W are called inter iwi wars -I believe this may be wrong as it seems they were MOST often inter hapu wars,sometimes alliances of kin related hapu and only some of the wars around the migration of large groups-such as Te Rauparaha's down to Kapiti, involved whole iwi.The intro could be ammended to reflect this? Claudia, May 2011.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.32.33 (talk) 22:59, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Musket wars wrongly interpreted? 

message: It seems very strange than in the Battle of Hingikaka-a premusket, traditional war about 8,000 Maori were killed in just 1 battle, yet only 18,000 Maori died in the long running Musket Wars that went on for 37 years - involving hundreds of different battles -all using the far more deadly muskets to a greater or lesser extent. There does not seem to be any recognition of the death by exile factor. It is likely that at least 7 complete hapu vanished. This says nothing of death by introduced disease -like measles as an added factor.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.36.191 (talk) 04:39, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of dead in musket wars under estimated? 

message: I have undone this edit by 122.62.226.243
Maori also attacked Moriori on the Chatham Islands in a well orchestrated onslaught that began in 1835 and did not end until the 1860s.[1] LMS missionaries who arrived in the North during the wars attempted to modify the often barbaric behaviour of individuals such as Hongi Hika but were subjected to immense psychological pressure and continuous ridicule. Their food supply and living conditions were controlled by Maori.One missionary was entrapped by living with a Maori women. He was forced into servicing firearms for the marauding hapu so they could continue their wars .[2]
Firstly this is way too detailed (and badly written) to be in the lede.  Secondly The references contain no page numbers, and I have some genuine concern that they support what is written.
My undoing has been instantly undone undone by 75.95.245.49 an IP in Hawai'i maybe my edit summary wasn't clear - rather than undoing this again I'm expressing my concerns here so it can be discussed. Andrewgprout (talk) 05:40, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  The question above was more the appropriateness of the detail for the lead paragraph rather than any single piece of truthfulness - If you write this up properly referenced in the appropriate part of the "correct" article and make it actually reflect what the references say - not what you want them to say I'm sure no one will revert your work. Perhaps trying it out in your sandbox would be a good idea to get everything right before copying into the article.Andrewgprout (talk) 00:26, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable edit by 122.62.226.243 in lede 

message: This article is desperately in need of a major overhaul. It is poorly written, badly referenced and often deviates from Wikipedia style. BlackCab (TALK) 07:05, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I have begun rewriting the article. More edits and cleanups to follow. BlackCab (TALK) 06:18, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

text: Material that is poorly written, inadequately sourced or not relevant to the topic will continue to be removed. BlackCab (TALK) 06:24, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor quality article 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The lede says  Heke started the wars 11 years after they started! Moriori (talk) 01:34, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the "Responsibility for the beginning of the musket wars" wording, so its kind of implied but not stated. I think it works. - Snori (talk) 10:00, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

text: I also wonder about the 1845 end date that the article is using. 1839 or 1840 would seem much more reasonable, and 1830s seems to be what's typically used elsewhere. - Snori (talk) 01:46, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

text: Looking back I see that it was here as 1842 for a long while (unsure on what grounds),  but was changed to 1845 on 25 July by an IP. Based on the fact that the latest event we have in the article is dated 1837 I've now changed it to that. - Snori (talk) 06:52, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lede doesn't make sense 

message: This section is really quite unrelated to the topic, but instead belongs with New Zealand Wars. - Snori (talk) 01:46, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Prohibition

message: These should be mentioned.  The great chief Hongi Hika was not a passive receiver of muskets.  Born into a traditional society, he had the brilliance to take himself all the way to England to get more muskets.
Also, one of the major motivations for the wars in general was food.  The losing side got eaten.  Literally, in large numbers.  Should be mentioned. Tuntable (talk) 09:25, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hika's trip to England and Canabalism