Talk:Bandog/Archive 1

message: Can someone translate it and determine what it's doing there and if it is worth keeping the translated text in the article? --Dihard 18:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Foreign language in Pit Dog section 

message: I have not altered the history information of the early bandog. I only corrected the modern breed history information. Also, all information posted by me in the modern bandog section can be verified. A referrence of such material can be viewed on the "Swinford Bandog" page...and this information is relative to the modern breed. Instead of making false accusations, why not point out SPECIFIC issues that you would like to address so a proper resolution can be found? 
Referrences to my comments can be validated both by the July-August issue of 1972 Sporting Dog Journal as well as another book by Jack Kelly, and also by a few of Carl Semencic's books. Swinford referred to his lines of dogs as "Swinford Bandogs" and his breeding were largely responsbible for the EM and APBT being primary components in the lines of dogs currently being developed as "Swinfords." He also influenced several bandog breeders throughout the world.  SSDA (talk • contribs) 
: Considering the fact that no one but you refers to Bandog as Swinford anything. Unless directly referring to the bloodline that you have produced, leads me to believe that you putting it under alternative or common names is simply advertisement. Similarly, other people who breed Bandogs can start putting their bloodlines in there, I hope you see the issue with that. To prove this point you can simply do a basic Google search:
: 1.Swinford, no results related to dogs show up at all
: 2.Swinford K9, returns results posted on your website, your forum, or posts that you have made elsewhere
: 3.Swinford Bandog, returns mentions on various message boards referring to your bloodline specifically while discussing the general term Bandog
: As I have pointed out in my original discussion post, and what is clearly stated in the first few lines of the article, the term Bandog has originated in Middle England around 1250. Besides numerous books in which Bandogs are described hundreds of years before the establishment of the United States you keep putting United States as the country of origin. Very convenient for a person taking the credit for creating the modern Bandog, plastering his name allover the article, and then linking to his page.
: You have not corrected the history of modern Bandog, you have specifically wrote about your kennels bloodline history, and even better you have used your own page that you wrote as a reference. If you want to have a section dedicated to the job Swinford has done, I would be happy to have that but do note that other peoples opinions will also be reflected, including Joe Lucero.
: Furthermore the concept behind a Bandog has been with us since the day we have started using dogs for guard work. That concept of mixing Mastiff with another breed to produce certain quality has never left us, we have clear modern examples of that with a Bullmastiff. Besides the fact that before Swinford, and after Swinford, a number of people have been mixing fighting dogs with the Mastiff all around the world to accomplish the same. You are simply taking the credit while you are simply just another kennel.
: For the time being, I am once again changing the origin and removing Swinford from alternative names. I am not agreeing with the actions of the person that removed all references to Swinford under the modern breed description, even though I feel the information stated there only addresses your kennel, that is something I wanted to discuss with you first as I have mentioned in the original discussion topic.  Vitaliy G
::Please be sure that content (especially the content at the heart of the dispute) follows the guidelines set forward at Wikipedia:Reliable sources, and please cite your sources for fact claims.  Thanks! kmccoy (talk) 21:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sure, I really can not come up with anything better than Google to display that the name Swinford is not used as there are simply no resources that will say such name is not used. Google shows that no one uses the name but the person that is disputing this claim. Basic source for the origin as far as the date and location, Dictionary would be the easiest example http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bandog Some of the other historical references already have citations right in the article. The claim that Bullmastiff is a mix of a Mastiff with a Bulldog is addressed on its Wikipedia page. - Vitaliy G 21:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While Vitaliy G can NOT come up with anything better than google to display the Swinford name is "not used" I can find sources on google as well as other resources (including journals, books, and breeders) that unquestionably validate the Swinford name has been used. I hope this is considered by WP. SSDA71.195.158.57 22:08, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vitaliy G 

message: First, I take it you didn't look at the link and see further referrences? Below I described Swinford's work being published both in the Sporting Dog Journals (by Jack Kelly) and in a few books (by Semencic). I make a living in education (as a teacher), my website is largely educational about the breed history. Yes, on that sight one can find links to my dog kennel, but the matter is simply an issue of putting breed history up for others to obtain and my kennel website is simply a host of said information. The dogs are a hobby that I have dedicated much of my life to, which is why I obtained 2 degrees in Animal Sciences. Swinford's work is published to some limited degree in two issues of the Sporting Dog Journal and also in a book by Jack Kelly. It is also published to some degee in Carl Semencic's books. In addition, we have been able to contact many of the people Swinford worked with...including people that actually took the original photos of Swinford's original breeding program (some friends, some dog people that were involved in his work, and a lady vet friend that was very familiar with his Bandog project). The Chimera Kennels website only is our host for the Swinford Bandog history information page....which includes many referrences and original Swinford photos that are no where else (legally that is) on the internet. User:SSDA 71.195.158.57 23:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original referrences 

message: Kmccoy, I will gladly work to find some sort of common ground with the group listing opposing view, but the keep removing the modern breed desciption and truth about what is going on with these dogs today. There is a great deal of truth that can be documented and should be reported.  User:SSDA/SSDA  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.195.158.57 (talk) 12:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yet instead of listing your issues, you just reverted back.  Did you read the information I posted above, especially about conflict of interest? kmccoy (talk) 18:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am just now learning how to use "Wikipedia" and didn't see this disucssion page until it was brought to my attention. If you go back and look at the "Bandog" page that predates my edits, you will see the information that I added maintained a great deal of the original information...and that the Swinford information was described as seperately as possible in order to prevent any dispute; however, it is unquestionable that Swinford's work (which included publication of his dogs) was extremely responsible for what has occurred in the Bandog community today...so I felt this information should be listed for the sake of documenting an accurate modern description of what is occurring today and in recent history. Then the "disputing party" undid my editorial comments without compromise. Well, I simply reactivated them. So...on that note, one should be able to conclude that my comments included their information (for both sides of the story) while their information did not. So, I hope by pointing this out you are able to confirm that originally, it wasn't me that simply "reverted it back." I am not illustrating this here in order to be petty about such issues, but do desire you to understand I am willing to work or compromise with those that are willing to return the favor. However, deleting my comments was not meeting me half way. I do regret that you have to be involved for such matters to reach mutual ground, but also I appreciate your willingness to do so when the need arrises. Thanks. SSDA 71.195.158.57 23:08, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resolution  

message: (RFC commented out to continue RFC discussion on non-archive page. kmccoy (talk) 04:12, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bandog RFC 

message: I don't see my referrences listed anymore...but I typed them above. I was under the impression that no one here would be permitted to alter the words of othes while we discussed this matter, but apparently that isn't true. I hope WP will look into seeing who took out my referrences to Swiford's orginal work (if I myself haven't overlooked their current existence somewhere hidden within this rapidly growing topic) and deal with any guilty parties should that problem occur again.
These referrences were...google (LOL), and earlier publications such as The Sporting Dog Journal (July-August 1972 issue), another issue of the SDJ that I currently would have to look up, a book by Jack Kelly (titled something along the lines of 30 years of the SDJ), and a few books by Carl Semencic (both The World of Fighting Dogs published in 1984 by TFH and also the book Gladiator dogs which was published by ). Now...I hope these referrences are not alteted by any other party involved in this dialog...because if so I would imagine WP will catch it.  SSDA71.195.158.57 23:07, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:   Referrences  

message: Someone has altered my posts to remove some referrences which identified conversations between me and the authors of the original sited material. I hope WP looks into this and deals with it accordingly. One such topic altered topic clearly validated my contact with the authors of some of the published information done 23 years ago. SSDA71.195.158.57 23:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  As far as Semencic's book, your view is a matter of opinion. His referrences to Swinford's work in his book The World of Fighting Dogs and also in Gladiator Dogs influenced many bandog programs and his reports on Swinford's work has been sited by more bandog breeders than any other modern bandog project...regardless of if you like the book or information. It isn't a matter of my opinion or your opinion. It is a matter of fact and historical information. You can't realistically deny this fact.SSDA71.195.158.57 02:49, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Above you state you couldn't find any information about the "Swinford" or his work except in a google search...and now you state I exaggerate the impact of his work. Well, Swinford died in November of 1971. His work was published in 1972 in the SDJ and again by Jack kelly some years later but Kelly is a rather old man and doesn't publish his work on the net. Also Semencic's first book, The World of Fighting Dogs, was written in 1984...23 years ago and isn't really something you will find on the net either. His second book, Gladiator Dogs clearly outlines that his work about the Bandog recieved as much interest as all the other breeds in his first book...which included many breeds. And, even on "google" if one types in "Swinford Bandog" (as seen here... http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Swinford+Bandog ) one will indeed come up with sources besides my website. Yes, my website is the first to come up on the list as we have the most thorough history of Swinford's work reported...but a huge list of links come up that also referrence his dogs. So, apparently you simply haven't done proper objective or thorough research to determine how influencial Swinford's work has been. How many bandog breeders have you talked to? How many do you know on a PERSONAL level? No offense, but I don't know you (not by the name Vitaliy G anyway) and I can't respond by identifying who the anonymous (unidentified) IP posters are....so, I question their information...BUT STILL I LEAVE IT UP. WP has room to allow for alternative views. Being my view is the only view here that is supported by documented and sited referrences, logic would conclude that WP should decide to include this accurate information...how can you not agree? SSDA71.195.158.57 11:50, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am going to write this for the last time, and then simply start taking further action. No one is questioning the fact that Swinford did breed Bandogs, what people keep telling you is that he is not responsible for creating the modern Bandog, and while he had his "program" going there have been breeders doing this before him (in our time) and after him, he is not the creator of the modern Bandog and is simply another breeder. This is not a matter of alternative views, its a matter of facts. The references that you provide simply point out that he did breed dogs, your references do not point out that he is responsible for the modern Bandog. The modern example of a Bullmastiff, or Brazilian Bandogs ( http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:AW01ZttNrEIJ:ssbabandog.blogspot.com/2006/02/olde-brazilian-bandogge.html+Brazilian+Bandogs&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us ) being bred all through out the 1900s, including during the time of Swinford, and countless other breeders. This does _not_ make Swinford any more special than the rest of them. Vitaliy G 
What are you suggesting by stating "simply start taking further action?" Please explain what you mean here so there is no misunderstanding. Also, if you were to research the Donovan Pinscher, you would find that it is distguished by that name. It isn't just a bloodline. There are several lines of DP are there not? Now, with the Swinford breed there are also several lines. However, both (Swinford and DP) are types of Bandogs, yet not all bandogs are Swinfords or DP. Wouldn't you agree? There is NOTHING incorrect in these statements here...and in fact they can be documented with referrences (already provided). Now, it is no secrete that all the participants that are arguing to remove the Swinford information all come from the same group (simply view Bandog Banter...which as the name implies argues about Bandog information and is hardly a constructive web forum by truly being a "bantering" format which tries to manipulate and control what information is out there no matter how incorrect the preachings on the banter are). http://members.boardhost.com/bandog/msg/1192651084.html It can also be noted that the Bandog Banter hides IPs and identities, which produces questionable sources as a result. If you go to the SSDA you will NOT see such behavior. What you will see though is a group of people working together for the benefit of the breed.
Again you site a party not involved in this discussion, please provide PROOF that the Donovan Pinscher is referenced ANYWERE as a "bandog" other than you trivial attacks.  And again you will not see this type of TRUTHFULL discussion on your SSDA message board BECAUSE it is owned and modirated by YOU (conflict of interest!)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.173.245.113 (talk) 02:40, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:   Altered posts