Talk:Fidel Castro/Archive 5

message: My two cents: this picture is composed in a severely dramatic fashion - making it a lightning rod for criticism that this page is not neutral.  Surely someone can come up with a more appropriate portrait.  --Rroser167 16:48, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How about: ?  Or ? --Rroser167 16:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with El C... Where does everyone keep finding these horrible Castro photos? Outside Wikipedia I rarely see such bad photos of him. For example, it's odd that in just about every AP photo of Castro taken in recent weeks, Castro looks so much younger and healthier. 172 19:49, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you think of ? Kapil 19:52, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Funny how the objections to the red star photo, which made us look for an alternative one, were made primarily by Grace Note (the one who keeps reverting to it now). I don't object to the red star photo if everyone else wants to leave it there. Kapil 18:02, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I understand that this is a very minor issue, so if there is no opposition, I won't keep cryin' about it.  I'm a little surprised that you're not opposed to it, Kapil, but I guess the big red star in the background may have sealed the deal for you.  Cool.   --Rroser167 18:32, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The first one is a bit weird, he looks like he's having a stroke. The second one's a bit blurry. How about ? Looks neutral and serious. Wouldn't object to the red star one, but I like this one better. Kapil 19:06, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I find Kapil's image to be a good compromise, I just wish we can find a higher quality version of it. I have no objections to using it in the lead. What do you think, 172? El_C 22:29, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not bad, but it's quite small and would be blurry if it were enlarged. 172 06:50, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Castro photo

message: This is unbelievable. Cut and paste scholarship at its worst. Has it ever occurred to you people that any statistics or facts that you've found floating around the internet are fresh from Castro's mouth? OMG, a dictator twisting the truth? get out! OK here's the truth: In Cuba if you can sign an x for your name you are considered literate. This is no joke. As for land reforms... he stole peoples land and if they didn't give in he shot them. I think it's probably necessary to tell you that I'm not just pulling this out of my ass nor am I some ninety year old exile in Miami but I did live there and I did have family murdered in the name of "land reforms". I understand the need for objectivity for such a project but I also think that since the man you are writing about has been controlling all media and surveys in Cuba since 1959 you should at the very least take these little factoids with a grain of salt. I also call your objectivity into question since none of the atrocities the man has perpetrated have made it into this article. I understand that many of you may have no idea since pre-Castro Cuba was before your time so you have no real point of reference as to just how rich a country both socially and economically Cuba was. But to dismiss the facts by merely stating that the regime has been controversial is in itself biased. Tell a surviving family member that the murder of their own blood was controversial. For that matter I didn't see any such statements about Adolf Hitler's "controversial actions". I guess those murders weren't so controversial. You people are writing from very safe places and I think you should remember that before you write. 
I object to the use of this term because the increase can't be categorised as great. A simple look at one of the sources in the article reveals:
The health care system is often touted by many analysts as one of the Castro government's greatest achievements.  What this analysis ignores is that the revolutionary government inherited an already-advanced health sector when it took power in 1959.
Cuba's infant mortality rate of 32 per 1,000 live births in 1957 was the lowest in Latin America and the 13th lowest in the world, according to UN data.  Cuba ranked ahead of France, Belgium, West Germany, Israel, Japan, Austria, Italy, and Spain, all of which would eventually pass Cuba in this indicator during the following decades[7].
Cuba’s comparative world ranking according to data in Table 1 has fallen from 13th to last out of the 25 countries examined.  Also missing from the conventional analysis of Cuba's infant mortality rates is its staggering abortion rate of 77.7 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15-44 in 1996[8] -- which, because of selective termination of "high-risk" pregnancies, yields lower numbers for infant mortality.  Cuba's abortion rate was the 3rd highest out of the 60 countries studied.
In terms of physicians and dentists per capita, Cuba in 1957 ranked third in Latin America, behind only Uruguay and Argentina -- both of which were more advanced than the United States in this measure.  Cuba's 128 physicians and dentists per 100,000 people in 1957 was the same as the Netherlands, and ahead of the United Kingdom (122 per 100,000 people) and Finland (96).
Unfortunately, the UN statistical yearbook no longer publishes these statistics, so more recent comparisons are not possible, but it is completely erroneous to characterize pre-Revolutionary Cuba as backward in terms of healthcare.
Cuba has been among the most literate countries in Latin America since well before the Castro revolution, when it ranked fourth. Since then, Cuba has increased its literacy rate from 76 to 96 percent and is tied today for second place with Chile and Costa Rica[9].  Argentina is the most literate country in Latin America.  This improvement is impressive, but not unique, among Latin American countries. Panama, Paraguay, Colombia, Brazil, El Salvador, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, and Haiti -- which all ranked just behind Cuba in this indicator during the 1950's – have equaled or bettered Cuba's improvement when measured in percentage terms[10].
I believe to categorise their increases as "great" in the introductory paragraph is misleading, as one would not think this is a regional trend (I was one of those to think the healthcare and literacy increase was great, and also thought it was greatest among South American and even developed countries) but a great Cuban accomplishment. As it stands, the Cuban increases in these indicators is nothing more than part of a regional trend, though you don't see pages on Colombian or Argentinian presidents mentioning "great" increases or "availability of universal healthcare", and their inclusion in the biography of Fidel Castro (above political repression) would make believe that this was a great, unique accomplishment when data displays this is not the case. Also, note that the data is mostly UN, which would contradict claims of US government bias or misinformation. This improvement is impressive, but not unique, among Latin American countries. - This should be included, or the whole "great increase" should be dropped. So should this: The health care system is often touted by many analysts as one of the Castro government's greatest achievements.  What this analysis ignores is that the revolutionary government inherited an already-advanced health sector when it took power in 1959.  Kapil 21:01, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Kapil, I have no idea what this source comes from (in the article), but this World Health Organization piece (PDF) states that: Post-revolutionary Cuba constituted an important example of "good health at low cost" that did not make it onto the agenda of the 1985 [respective WHO] conference. Cuba's population health profile more closely resembles wealthy countries like the US and Canada than most other Latin American countries xxxv. While Cuba had likely attained one of the most favourable mortality levels in the developing world by the end of the 1950s, further significant declines in mortality took place following the socialist revolution of 1959. The revolution brought medical and public-health resources within the reach of formerly marginalized sectors of society. By redirecting national wealth towards the fulfilment of basic needs, the standard of living for the more disadvantaged social groups was improved despite the country's faltering economic performance in the 1960s and 1970s. Rural-urban differences in health and its social determinants were reduced as the state invested more national resources in rural areas xxxvi. In 1959 the country's infant mortality rate was 60/1000 live births and life expectancy was 65.1 years. By the mid-1980s Cuba had attained an infant mortality rate of 15/1000 and female life expectancy of 76 xxxvii. [...] Cuba's literacy rate is 96.7 percent, remarkable considering that before the revolution, one quarter of Cubans were illiterate and another tenth were semiliterate. [35] El_C 22:29, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: About infant mortality, my source refutes: Cuba’s comparative world ranking according to data in Table 1 has fallen from 13th to last out of the 25 countries examined.  Also missing from the conventional analysis of Cuba's infant mortality rates is its staggering abortion rate of 77.7 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15-44 in 1996[8] -- which, because of selective termination of "high-risk" pregnancies, yields lower numbers for infant mortality.  Cuba's abortion rate was the 3rd highest out of the 60 countries studied. Kapil 01:54, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Sorry, Kapil, what reference is that passage from? The WHO is an authoritative source, and this is a 2005 report. CIA World Factbook says 6.6/1000 (immediately followed by Taiwan at 6.40 and the U.S. at 6.50), that's ten-fold the 60/1000 in 1959, and ten-fold is a lot (double is a lot), all these contributing factors, which I was not fully aware of —thanks for that— (nor do I discount) overall notwithstanding. El_C 02:47, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I see above you added that this is a U.S. State Dept. source. Far from discounting it offhand, they do of course exhibit the strongest anti-Cuban bias, more so than any other country on the planet. I would tend to see a, let say a study by the, Canadian or Japanese or Spanish, etc. govts., or the WHO, as more detached — as neither enemies nor allies. El_C 03:09, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: as we have pointed out, other countries have made similar gains without command economic structures... the point is that there are different factors in increasing literacy. the fact that Cuba has a literacy rate, say, two points higher than that of Paraguay does not negate this J. Parker Stone 19:26, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: That's not what the CIA World Factbook states: 6.33 per 1,000 (2005 est.).  El_C 00:39, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Great" healthcare and literacy increases 

message: I wouldn't object removing the term "political" from this phrase. Here's my source: It is no exaggeration to state that during the 1950's, the Cuban people were among the most informed in the world, living in an uncharacteristically large media market for such a small country.  Cubans had a choice of 58 daily newspapers during the late 1950's, according to the UN statistical yearbook.  Despite its small size, this placed Cuba behind only Brazil, Argentina, and Mexico in the region.  By 1992, government controls had reduced the number of dailies to only 17.
There has also been a reduction in the number of radio and television broadcasting stations, although the UN no longer reports these statistics.  However, it should be noted that in 1957, Cuba had more television stations (23) than any other country in Latin America, easily outdistancing larger countries such as Mexico (12 television stations) and Venezuela (10).  It also led Latin America and ranked eighth in the world in number of radio stations (160), ahead of such countries as Austria (83 radio stations), United Kingdom (62), and France (50), according to the UN statistical yearbook.
This goes to show that whereas discussion and debate in pre-revolutionary times were among the most informed in the world, now people have to read government controlled papers (ever taken a look at the Granma? They even pick ugly photos of Castro's enemies, kinda like what anncol.org does) and the like. It's not far out to define Cuba's attitude towards plurality as "the systematic repression of all perceived opposition".
Also, to note:
Dozens of small, illegal opposition groups exist in Cuba, but have no access to the media, cannot hold public meetings and do not threaten the Communist Party's political dominance. 
The internal dissident movement is generally perceived by analysts and diplomats here as relatively weak, marginalized and handicapped by both internal divisions and state control. 
Cuba's four best-known dissident prisoners - Martha Beatriz Roque, Vladimiro Roca, Felix Bonne and Rene Gomez Manzano - remain in jail without trial since July 1997. 
The most decisive of all in my case for using this sentence is the following, from Human Rights Watch:
Over the past forty years, Cuba has developed a highly effective machinery of repression. The denial of basic civil and political rights is written into Cuban law. In the name of legality, armed security forces, aided by state-controlled mass organizations, silence dissent with heavy prison terms, threats of prosecution, harassment, or exile. Cuba uses these tools to restrict severely the exercise of fundamental human rights of expression, association, and assembly. The conditions in Cuba's prisons are inhuman, and political prisoners suffer additional degrading treatment and torture. In recent years, Cuba has added new repressive laws and continued prosecuting nonviolent dissidents while shrugging off international appeals for reform and placating visiting dignitaries with occasional releases of political prisoners. To note: over the past forty years, Cuba has developed a highly effective machinery of repression and Cuba has added new repressive laws. This clearly states repression, systematic repression. 
Finally, a jewel:
The goal of the Castro regime has been to "fuse state and society."36 The two principal, overlapping instruments are the PCC, which "rules over every level of Cuban life,"37 and the Ministry of Interior (MININT). The MININT contains within it a vast, nationwide surveillance and repressive apparatus to keep the population in line. The principal departments in the MININT for exercising political and social control are the Departamento de Seguridad del Estado (DSE), Department of State Security, commonly referred to simply as "State Security," and the Departamento Técnico de Investigaciones (DTI), Department of Technical Investigations. The headquarters of State Security is housed in a former seminary in the Havana section of Villa Marista and is often referred to simply as "Villa Marista." Through the use of electronic surveillance, undercover agents and a widespread network of informants who are often coerced or blackmailed, MININT has the capability and the mandate to spy on or forcibly intrude in the lives of any citizen for any reason, anytime, anywhere. According to the U.S. Department of State:
:The State has assumed the right to interfere in the lives of citizens, even those who do not actively oppose the Government and its practices.38
Human Rights Watch/Americas has described the situation this way:
:The violation of the right of privacy is systematic and pervasive. Tight political control in Cuba is maintained through extensive monitoring of Cubans’ daily lives.39
MININT, like the PCC, is deeply imbedded in the structures of the military,40 and also controls the uniformed Revolutionary National Police (PNR). 
Note the use of the word "systematic", not just of political repression but of simple privacy. This means, not just political opposition, but perceived opposition, as is stated in even those who do not actively oppose the Government and its practices.
Here's an additional source, just in case. 
Please, present your sources or desist in reverting, and unless there's some charming information against, I will change it to "Systematic repression of all perceived opposition". It's hardly my opinion, it's the verbatim opinion of various informed and respected sources. Kapil 05:31, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, you lost. You're not even making sense now. You're comparing the "monopoly on violence" with communist repression. And terms like "Weberian" don't impress me nor do they help your point. Bring forth some sources which dispute my claims or leave the article as it is, or I'll have you banned. Kapil 07:00, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: If you consider "Systematic repression of all perceived opposition" to be vague, then you'll have to expand it, taking into account the plethora of sources presented and the fact you now accepted it to be true. What about "Systematic repression of all perceived opposition to his iron fisted rule"? Or "The installation of a police state which constantly and systematically spies on an represses its population"? Should it be mentioned they also act upon imaginary crime? Kapil 07:10, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: No, they don't mean anything because they're being used to change the rules of the game when you notice you've been beaten. Everybody knows about the Weberian definition of the state, though having a monopoly on the use of force is quite different from state repression in Cuba to supress dissent. Read the sources, comment on them or stop making jibes against me, you're not gonna win the argument by making personal attacks and you might just get yourself banned. Kapil 07:10, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: The dispute is not about how "opponents believe that Castro remains in power because of repression", but how Castro turned a once pluralistic society into a police state. I have displayed evidence, and 172's refutation is naïve in that it tries to dismiss Castro's repression as the state's monopoly of force, saying "every state represses". Faced with my sources, the only solution would be to enlarge the line to include mention of said police state, as this is neither my invention nor a simple display of the state's monopoly of force. Kapil 07:19, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I am not trying to do that. Quite the opposite. I was pressing you to be more specific or not to add any unnecessary verbiage to the intro at all. The fact is that what is implied with respect to repression by bringing up Cuba's transformation into a Communist state is more specific on the nature of repression under Castro's regime than the extremely vague statement that his regime engages in repression. All states engage in repression, but a single party does not monopolize power in all states... There is just no need to tell the reader what has already been established, especially when it is so vague that it could in theory be stuck in the intro on any politician. 172 07:33, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dude, what it all boils down to is that the change under the Castro regime (from a pluralistic society to a police state) should be mentioned, as it is as important (or more important) than increases in literacy and healthcare. To let it out would not be fair to the reader, as the Castro presidency has engaged in repression, independent of this being in the definition of a communist country or not. Yes, people can follow the wiki hyperlink, but why should the increases in literacy and healthcare have introductory paragraph mention when a change which is as important (political repression) is not mentioned as it is mentioned elsewhere? Also, in-depth mention of the political structure of Cuba and its changes under the Castro regime are further down in the article, but that's exactly what an introductory paragraph should do - introduce the changes under his presidency, which include the political clampdown. That this is obvious is not entirely true, though I maintain it is worthy of mention, considering that publishing one positive fact but leaving out another equally important, negative fact (in the first paragraph, the one most people read and the one summarizing the contents of the article) does not contribute to neutrality, regardless of the reason being a completely neutral one (wiki readability/redundancy). Kapil 07:44, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Sorry for the lengthy response, what I'm saying is basically that removing mention of political repression (or however you want to call it), though it does serve a legitimate purpose (to remove wordiness/redundancy) disbalances the first line of the article. That's my complaint. Kapil 07:47, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: change under the Castro regime (from a pluralistic society to a police state) should be mentioned Uh, that's not going to fly anywhere, barring journals of hardline Cuban American exile groups... For now, what you keep on adding is just redundant, regardless of whether or not someone considers "repression" legitimate. But if you can think of something that adds to the intro in content and not just verbiage, it will be, of course, considered. 172 07:53, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe your mention of "verbiage" would seem to be selective, seeing as how the increases in healthcare and literacy are also mentioned further down the page. I would propose to include "his presidency has seen ... the implementation of repressive state policies hostile towards real and perceived opposition to his rule (common to other communist countries previously aligned to the Soviet Union)". Yes, wordy, but something to that effect, as balance is desperately needed in the introduction. Kapil 08:03, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the content on health and education is down the page. The point of an intro is to establish broad themes that will be elaborated on down the article. 172 08:06, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. "Human Rights and Under Castro's Leadership", one of the themes elaborated on down the article, is not even mentioned. It reads: Many argue that several thousand unjustified deaths have occurred under Castro's decades-long rule. Some Cubans have been labeled "counterrevolutionaries", "fascists", or "CIA operatives", and imprisoned in extremely poor conditions without trial; some have been summarily executed. The level of political control in Cuba has relaxed somewhat since the USSR's collapse, but some people still view Castro as presiding over a totalitarian state. Kapil 08:08, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to play devil's advocate for the sake of keeping us focused on NPOV, one could bring up that criticisms of (say) Colombia's human rights record would seem even more egregious. And someone could also bring up that prison is a far more prominent institution here in the U.S. than in Cuba. The U.S. incarcerates five to eight times more of its people per capita than other rich industrialized countries, and possibly has the world's highest per capita prison in the world, much higher than Cuba's. 172 08:21, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: The problem is, we're not talking about Colombia, we're talking about Cuba. I'm pretty sure (willing to bet) that human rights worries are mentioned in the Colombia page. Independently, prison conditions in the US are monitored (except for Guantanamo) by international bodies and stuff. We know what's going on in a US prison, and even if there's lots of prisoners, they're subjected to minimum standards. In Cuba, prisons are unmonitored and according to some of the stuff I have read (if you want I can research about it and post it here), pretty spooky shit. But, even if conditions in US prisons were as appalling or whatever, it should be mentioned in the US page and should not remove mention from this page. Also, the US holds people for petty crimes (stealing a car? vandalism?) whereas Cuba holds people for their political beliefs (political prisoners) which is a far graver matter independently of if per capita cuban prison population is smaller than that in the US. Kapil 19:28, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: the difference is that Cuba has not been facing a 50-year old insurgency and we are not talking about criminals, we are talking about political prisoners. J. Parker Stone 19:09, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, El C, you might find these Monthly Review articles interesting if you haven't seen them already.   172 08:24, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: I tried to give Kapil my take on some of the concerns listed above on his talk page. I am hopeful that with such dialogue all the participants will be able to establish consensus with him rather than against him. El_C 08:01, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: I'd say you're welcome, but I didn't archive it. I guess Grace did. Anyway, it timely, considering how unwieldy the page was getting. 172 08:26, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: D'oh! Soggy about that! El_C 08:34, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I archived it :) Kapil 01:49, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahah! We were close, but way off! :D El_C 02:09, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Systematic repression of all [political] opposition 

message: You guys really don't want to get this article involved in comparing Cuba now versus before Castro. Everything is too changed. In USA back then Blacks were systematicly discriminated against. Lynchings occurred and the Congress refused to act. Strange Fruit indeed. Before Castro, Cuba was a kleptocracy with American mobsters running drugs, prostitution, and everything else. Health and Education were a joke. Castro is one of the best of the communist dictators. Some think America drove him into soviet arms with our behavior. I've seen USA sourced statistics showing better health care for the poor in Cuba than America.  Casro has done both good and bad. He'll be dead soon and we'll "help" a new government replace the existing dictatorship machinery (so that they, like us, can have the best government money can buy). 4.250.168.126 08:47, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Health and Education were a joke - Health and education were among the highest in the world, and they certainly were better than in other Latin American countries. Read some of the sources, they repeatedly say so. Kapil 17:49, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Stop copying old versions from a text editor or from old diffs, you are erasing any new contributions and I am currently treating your actions as vandalism, which you may be blocked for, though I won't be doing the blocking because it would always look politically motivated, even when warranted. Those are the given conditions. Anyway, as I cited in thw WHO 2005 report, infant mortality was at 60/1000 in 1959 (yes, significantly lower than Haiti's 73/1000 today), today it is at 6/1000. That's a tenfold drop, which by any measure, is a lot (double is a lot). I've already said all this. Sigh. Anyway, this argument seems redundant, not sure what purpose it serves. El_C 08:24, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: i don't see how this negates any of what i said. i never said Cuba didn't make progress in healthcare. the issue is how much of it is due to natural developments (as may've been seen in other developing countries) and how much of it is due to state investment. J. Parker Stone 19:07, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Trey was blocked by Neutrality and he's out on an extremely short leash.  He has been blocked for six hours to slow down this kamikaze edit warring he's started up since I unblocked him just a few minutes ago.  He knows that if he does this again I'll just restore Neutrality's indefinite block. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 08:30, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: (in)definite block. El_C 10:57, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 1959 America and 1959 Cuba

message: I object to the use of this term because the increase can't be categorised as great. A simple look at one of the sources in the article reveals:
The health care system is often touted by many analysts as one of the Castro government's greatest achievements.  What this analysis ignores is that the revolutionary government inherited an already-advanced health sector when it took power in 1959.
Cuba's infant mortality rate of 32 per 1,000 live births in 1957 was the lowest in Latin America and the 13th lowest in the world, according to UN data.  Cuba ranked ahead of France, Belgium, West Germany, Israel, Japan, Austria, Italy, and Spain, all of which would eventually pass Cuba in this indicator during the following decades[7].
Cuba’s comparative world ranking according to data in Table 1 has fallen from 13th to last out of the 25 countries examined.  Also missing from the conventional analysis of Cuba's infant mortality rates is its staggering abortion rate of 77.7 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15-44 in 1996[8] -- which, because of selective termination of "high-risk" pregnancies, yields lower numbers for infant mortality.  Cuba's abortion rate was the 3rd highest out of the 60 countries studied.
In terms of physicians and dentists per capita, Cuba in 1957 ranked third in Latin America, behind only Uruguay and Argentina -- both of which were more advanced than the United States in this measure.  Cuba's 128 physicians and dentists per 100,000 people in 1957 was the same as the Netherlands, and ahead of the United Kingdom (122 per 100,000 people) and Finland (96).
Unfortunately, the UN statistical yearbook no longer publishes these statistics, so more recent comparisons are not possible, but it is completely erroneous to characterize pre-Revolutionary Cuba as backward in terms of healthcare.
Cuba has been among the most literate countries in Latin America since well before the Castro revolution, when it ranked fourth. Since then, Cuba has increased its literacy rate from 76 to 96 percent and is tied today for second place with Chile and Costa Rica[9].  Argentina is the most literate country in Latin America.  This improvement is impressive, but not unique, among Latin American countries. Panama, Paraguay, Colombia, Brazil, El Salvador, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, and Haiti -- which all ranked just behind Cuba in this indicator during the 1950's – have equaled or bettered Cuba's improvement when measured in percentage terms[10].
I believe to categorise their increases as "great" in the introductory paragraph is misleading, as one would not think this is a regional trend (I was one of those to think the healthcare and literacy increase was great, and also thought it was greatest among South American and even developed countries) but a great Cuban accomplishment. As it stands, the Cuban increases in these indicators is nothing more than part of a regional trend, though you don't see pages on Colombian or Argentinian presidents mentioning "great" increases or "availability of universal healthcare", and their inclusion in the biography of Fidel Castro (above political repression) would make believe that this was a great, unique accomplishment when data displays this is not the case. Also, note that the data is mostly UN, which would contradict claims of US government bias or misinformation. This improvement is impressive, but not unique, among Latin American countries. - This should be included, or the whole "great increase" should be dropped. So should this: The health care system is often touted by many analysts as one of the Castro government's greatest achievements.  What this analysis ignores is that the revolutionary government inherited an already-advanced health sector when it took power in 1959.  Kapil 21:01, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Kapil, I have no idea what this source comes from (in the article), but this World Health Organization piece (PDF) states that: Post-revolutionary Cuba constituted an important example of "good health at low cost" that did not make it onto the agenda of the 1985 [respective WHO] conference. Cuba's population health profile more closely resembles wealthy countries like the US and Canada than most other Latin American countries xxxv. While Cuba had likely attained one of the most favourable mortality levels in the developing world by the end of the 1950s, further significant declines in mortality took place following the socialist revolution of 1959. The revolution brought medical and public-health resources within the reach of formerly marginalized sectors of society. By redirecting national wealth towards the fulfilment of basic needs, the standard of living for the more disadvantaged social groups was improved despite the country's faltering economic performance in the 1960s and 1970s. Rural-urban differences in health and its social determinants were reduced as the state invested more national resources in rural areas xxxvi. In 1959 the country's infant mortality rate was 60/1000 live births and life expectancy was 65.1 years. By the mid-1980s Cuba had attained an infant mortality rate of 15/1000 and female life expectancy of 76 xxxvii. [...] Cuba's literacy rate is 96.7 percent, remarkable considering that before the revolution, one quarter of Cubans were illiterate and another tenth were semiliterate. [35] El_C 22:29, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: About infant mortality, my source refutes: Cuba’s comparative world ranking according to data in Table 1 has fallen from 13th to last out of the 25 countries examined.  Also missing from the conventional analysis of Cuba's infant mortality rates is its staggering abortion rate of 77.7 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15-44 in 1996[8] -- which, because of selective termination of "high-risk" pregnancies, yields lower numbers for infant mortality.  Cuba's abortion rate was the 3rd highest out of the 60 countries studied. Kapil 01:54, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Sorry, Kapil, what reference is that passage from? The WHO is an authoritative source, and this is a 2005 report. CIA World Factbook says 6.6/1000 (immediately followed by Taiwan at 6.40 and the U.S. at 6.50), that's ten-fold the 60/1000 in 1959, and ten-fold is a lot (double is a lot), all these contributing factors, which I was not fully aware of —thanks for that— (nor do I discount) overall notwithstanding. El_C 02:47, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I see above you added that this is a U.S. State Dept. source. Far from discounting it offhand, they do of course exhibit the strongest anti-Cuban bias, more so than any other country on the planet. I would tend to see a, let say a study by the, Canadian or Japanese or Spanish, etc. govts., or the WHO, as more detached — as neither enemies nor allies. El_C 03:09, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: as we have pointed out, other countries have made similar gains without command economic structures... the point is that there are different factors in increasing literacy. the fact that Cuba has a literacy rate, say, two points higher than that of Paraguay does not negate this J. Parker Stone 19:26, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Great" healthcare and literacy increases 

message: I wouldn't object removing the term "political" from this phrase. Here's my source: It is no exaggeration to state that during the 1950's, the Cuban people were among the most informed in the world, living in an uncharacteristically large media market for such a small country.  Cubans had a choice of 58 daily newspapers during the late 1950's, according to the UN statistical yearbook.  Despite its small size, this placed Cuba behind only Brazil, Argentina, and Mexico in the region.  By 1992, government controls had reduced the number of dailies to only 17.
There has also been a reduction in the number of radio and television broadcasting stations, although the UN no longer reports these statistics.  However, it should be noted that in 1957, Cuba had more television stations (23) than any other country in Latin America, easily outdistancing larger countries such as Mexico (12 television stations) and Venezuela (10).  It also led Latin America and ranked eighth in the world in number of radio stations (160), ahead of such countries as Austria (83 radio stations), United Kingdom (62), and France (50), according to the UN statistical yearbook.
This goes to show that whereas discussion and debate in pre-revolutionary times were among the most informed in the world, now people have to read government controlled papers (ever taken a look at the Granma? They even pick ugly photos of Castro's enemies, kinda like what anncol.org does) and the like. It's not far out to define Cuba's attitude towards plurality as "the systematic repression of all perceived opposition".
Also, to note:
Dozens of small, illegal opposition groups exist in Cuba, but have no access to the media, cannot hold public meetings and do not threaten the Communist Party's political dominance. 
The internal dissident movement is generally perceived by analysts and diplomats here as relatively weak, marginalized and handicapped by both internal divisions and state control. 
Cuba's four best-known dissident prisoners - Martha Beatriz Roque, Vladimiro Roca, Felix Bonne and Rene Gomez Manzano - remain in jail without trial since July 1997. 
The most decisive of all in my case for using this sentence is the following, from Human Rights Watch:
Over the past forty years, Cuba has developed a highly effective machinery of repression. The denial of basic civil and political rights is written into Cuban law. In the name of legality, armed security forces, aided by state-controlled mass organizations, silence dissent with heavy prison terms, threats of prosecution, harassment, or exile. Cuba uses these tools to restrict severely the exercise of fundamental human rights of expression, association, and assembly. The conditions in Cuba's prisons are inhuman, and political prisoners suffer additional degrading treatment and torture. In recent years, Cuba has added new repressive laws and continued prosecuting nonviolent dissidents while shrugging off international appeals for reform and placating visiting dignitaries with occasional releases of political prisoners. To note: over the past forty years, Cuba has developed a highly effective machinery of repression and Cuba has added new repressive laws. This clearly states repression, systematic repression. 
Finally, a jewel:
The goal of the Castro regime has been to "fuse state and society."36 The two principal, overlapping instruments are the PCC, which "rules over every level of Cuban life,"37 and the Ministry of Interior (MININT). The MININT contains within it a vast, nationwide surveillance and repressive apparatus to keep the population in line. The principal departments in the MININT for exercising political and social control are the Departamento de Seguridad del Estado (DSE), Department of State Security, commonly referred to simply as "State Security," and the Departamento Técnico de Investigaciones (DTI), Department of Technical Investigations. The headquarters of State Security is housed in a former seminary in the Havana section of Villa Marista and is often referred to simply as "Villa Marista." Through the use of electronic surveillance, undercover agents and a widespread network of informants who are often coerced or blackmailed, MININT has the capability and the mandate to spy on or forcibly intrude in the lives of any citizen for any reason, anytime, anywhere. According to the U.S. Department of State:
:The State has assumed the right to interfere in the lives of citizens, even those who do not actively oppose the Government and its practices.38
Human Rights Watch/Americas has described the situation this way:
:The violation of the right of privacy is systematic and pervasive. Tight political control in Cuba is maintained through extensive monitoring of Cubans’ daily lives.39
MININT, like the PCC, is deeply imbedded in the structures of the military,40 and also controls the uniformed Revolutionary National Police (PNR). 
Note the use of the word "systematic", not just of political repression but of simple privacy. This means, not just political opposition, but perceived opposition, as is stated in even those who do not actively oppose the Government and its practices.
Here's an additional source, just in case. 
Please, present your sources or desist in reverting, and unless there's some charming information against, I will change it to "Systematic repression of all perceived opposition". It's hardly my opinion, it's the verbatim opinion of various informed and respected sources. Kapil 05:31, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, you lost. You're not even making sense now. You're comparing the "monopoly on violence" with communist repression. And terms like "Weberian" don't impress me nor do they help your point. Bring forth some sources which dispute my claims or leave the article as it is, or I'll have you banned. Kapil 07:00, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: If you consider "Systematic repression of all perceived opposition" to be vague, then you'll have to expand it, taking into account the plethora of sources presented and the fact you now accepted it to be true. What about "Systematic repression of all perceived opposition to his iron fisted rule"? Or "The installation of a police state which constantly and systematically spies on an represses its population"? Should it be mentioned they also act upon imaginary crime? Kapil 07:10, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: No, they don't mean anything because they're being used to change the rules of the game when you notice you've been beaten. Everybody knows about the Weberian definition of the state, though having a monopoly on the use of force is quite different from state repression in Cuba to supress dissent. Read the sources, comment on them or stop making jibes against me, you're not gonna win the argument by making personal attacks and you might just get yourself banned. Kapil 07:10, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: The dispute is not about how "opponents believe that Castro remains in power because of repression", but how Castro turned a once pluralistic society into a police state. I have displayed evidence, and 172's refutation is naïve in that it tries to dismiss Castro's repression as the state's monopoly of force, saying "every state represses". Faced with my sources, the only solution would be to enlarge the line to include mention of said police state, as this is neither my invention nor a simple display of the state's monopoly of force. Kapil 07:19, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I am not trying to do that. Quite the opposite. I was pressing you to be more specific or not to add any unnecessary verbiage to the intro at all. The fact is that what is implied with respect to repression by bringing up Cuba's transformation into a Communist state is more specific on the nature of repression under Castro's regime than the extremely vague statement that his regime engages in repression. All states engage in repression, but a single party does not monopolize power in all states... There is just no need to tell the reader what has already been established, especially when it is so vague that it could in theory be stuck in the intro on any politician. 172 07:33, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dude, what it all boils down to is that the change under the Castro regime (from a pluralistic society to a police state) should be mentioned, as it is as important (or more important) than increases in literacy and healthcare. To let it out would not be fair to the reader, as the Castro presidency has engaged in repression, independent of this being in the definition of a communist country or not. Yes, people can follow the wiki hyperlink, but why should the increases in literacy and healthcare have introductory paragraph mention when a change which is as important (political repression) is not mentioned as it is mentioned elsewhere? Also, in-depth mention of the political structure of Cuba and its changes under the Castro regime are further down in the article, but that's exactly what an introductory paragraph should do - introduce the changes under his presidency, which include the political clampdown. That this is obvious is not entirely true, though I maintain it is worthy of mention, considering that publishing one positive fact but leaving out another equally important, negative fact (in the first paragraph, the one most people read and the one summarizing the contents of the article) does not contribute to neutrality, regardless of the reason being a completely neutral one (wiki readability/redundancy). Kapil 07:44, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Sorry for the lengthy response, what I'm saying is basically that removing mention of political repression (or however you want to call it), though it does serve a legitimate purpose (to remove wordiness/redundancy) disbalances the first line of the article. That's my complaint. Kapil 07:47, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: change under the Castro regime (from a pluralistic society to a police state) should be mentioned Uh, that's not going to fly anywhere, barring journals of hardline Cuban American exile groups... For now, what you keep on adding is just redundant, regardless of whether or not someone considers "repression" legitimate. But if you can think of something that adds to the intro in content and not just verbiage, it will be, of course, considered. 172 07:53, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe your mention of "verbiage" would seem to be selective, seeing as how the increases in healthcare and literacy are also mentioned further down the page. I would propose to include "his presidency has seen ... the implementation of repressive state policies hostile towards real and perceived opposition to his rule (common to other communist countries previously aligned to the Soviet Union)". Yes, wordy, but something to that effect, as balance is desperately needed in the introduction. Kapil 08:03, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the content on health and education is down the page. The point of an intro is to establish broad themes that will be elaborated on down the article. 172 08:06, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. "Human Rights and Under Castro's Leadership", one of the themes elaborated on down the article, is not even mentioned. It reads: Many argue that several thousand unjustified deaths have occurred under Castro's decades-long rule. Some Cubans have been labeled "counterrevolutionaries", "fascists", or "CIA operatives", and imprisoned in extremely poor conditions without trial; some have been summarily executed. The level of political control in Cuba has relaxed somewhat since the USSR's collapse, but some people still view Castro as presiding over a totalitarian state. Kapil 08:08, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to play devil's advocate for the sake of keeping us focused on NPOV, one could bring up that criticisms of (say) Colombia's human rights record would seem even more egregious. And someone could also bring up that prison is a far more prominent institution here in the U.S. than in Cuba. The U.S. incarcerates five to eight times more of its people per capita than other rich industrialized countries, and possibly has the world's highest per capita prison in the world, much higher than Cuba's. 172 08:21, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: The problem is, we're not talking about Colombia, we're talking about Cuba. I'm pretty sure (willing to bet) that human rights worries are mentioned in the Colombia page. Independently, prison conditions in the US are monitored (except for Guantanamo) by international bodies and stuff. We know what's going on in a US prison, and even if there's lots of prisoners, they're subjected to minimum standards. In Cuba, prisons are unmonitored and according to some of the stuff I have read (if you want I can research about it and post it here), pretty spooky shit. But, even if conditions in US prisons were as appalling or whatever, it should be mentioned in the US page and should not remove mention from this page. Also, the US holds people for petty crimes (stealing a car? vandalism?) whereas Cuba holds people for their political beliefs (political prisoners) which is a far graver matter independently of if per capita cuban prison population is smaller than that in the US. Kapil 19:28, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: the difference is that Cuba has not been facing a 50-year old insurgency and we are not talking about criminals, we are talking about political prisoners. J. Parker Stone 19:09, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, El C, you might find these Monthly Review articles interesting if you haven't seen them already.   172 08:24, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: I tried to give Kapil my take on some of the concerns listed above on his talk page. I am hopeful that with such dialogue all the participants will be able to establish consensus with him rather than against him. El_C 08:01, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: I'd say you're welcome, but I didn't archive it. I guess Grace did. Anyway, it timely, considering how unwieldy the page was getting. 172 08:26, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: D'oh! Soggy about that! El_C 08:34, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I archived it :) Kapil 01:49, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahah! We were close, but way off! :D El_C 02:09, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Systematic repression of all [political] opposition 

message: You guys really don't want to get this article involved in comparing Cuba now versus before Castro. Everything is too changed. In USA back then Blacks were systematicly discriminated against. Lynchings occurred and the Congress refused to act. Strange Fruit indeed. Before Castro, Cuba was a kleptocracy with American mobsters running drugs, prostitution, and everything else. Health and Education were a joke. Castro is one of the best of the communist dictators. Some think America drove him into soviet fuhk arms with our behavior. I've seen USA sourced statistics showing better health care for the poor in Cuba than America.  Casro has done both good and bad. He'll be dead soon and we'll "help" a new government replace the existing dictatorship machinery (so that they, like us, can have the best government money can buy). 4.250.168.126 08:47, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Health and Education were a joke - Health and education were among the highest in the world, and they certainly were better than in other Latin American countries. Read some of the sources, they repeatedly say so. Kapil 17:49, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Stop copying old versions from a text editor or from old diffs, you are erasing any new contributions and I am currently treating your actions as vandalism, which you may be blocked for, though I won't be doing the blocking because it would always look politically motivated, even when warranted. Those are the given conditions. Anyway, as I cited in thw WHO 2005 report, infant mortality was at 60/1000 in 1959 (yes, significantly lower than Haiti's 73/1000 today), today it is at 6/1000. That's a tenfold drop, which by any measure, is a lot (double is a lot). I've already said all this. Sigh. Anyway, this argument seems redundant, not sure what purpose it serves. El_C 08:24, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: i don't see how this negates any of what i said. i never said Cuba didn't make progress in healthcare. the issue is how much of it is due to natural developments (as may've been seen in other developing countries) and how much of it is due to state investment. J. Parker Stone 19:07, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Trey was blocked by Neutrality and he's out on an extremely short leash.  He has been blocked for six hours to slow down this kamikaze edit warring he's started up since I unblocked him just a few minutes ago.  He knows that if he does this again I'll just restore Neutrality's indefinite block. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 08:30, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: (in)definite block. El_C 10:57, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 1959 America and 1959 Cuba

message: I have protected the page, and I'm loath to unprotect it until a consensus introduction has been hammered out. Mackensen (talk) 12:11, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Protection