Talk:Druidry (modern)

message: Needs citation of sources. Badbilltucker 01:59, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merged comment

message: Druidry is the preferred term among the Neo-Druid Community.  An analysis of the links provided at the bottom of the page:
American
•ADF – Ár nDraíocht Féin: A Druid Fellowship – “Ár nDraíocht Féin: A Druid Fellowship (ADF) is an international fellowship devoted to creating a public tradition of Neopagan Druidry.”
•ADO – Avalon Druid Order –“Druidry for a New Age”
•DGOFC – Druid Gorsedd of the First Circle –“ We welcome people of all paths, whether they choose to follow Druidry as their sole path, or seek to infuse their chosen path with the spirit of Druidry.”
•The Henge of Keltria –“ Keltrian Druidism is a spiritual path dedicated to revering the Nature Spirits, honoring the Ancestors, and worshipping the Deities of our ancient Irish ancestors.”
•RDNA – Reformed Druids of North America – “The mother grove of American Druidry”
•Reformed Druids of North America – Uses both, but from reading through it they seemed to be using Druidism more.
•Reformed Druid Grove Locations –Dead Link, just a list of locations anyways
•A Reformed Druid Anthology –Uses Druidism more
•AODA – Ancient Order of Druids in America –Has a whole paragraph devoted to why Druidry is better than Druidism
•The Archdruid Report -Druidry
•Ord Draiochta na Uisnech – Irish Tradition –Dead Link
•Isaac Bonewits's website -Expired
•RDG – Reformed Druids of Gaia -Druidism
•Order of the Mithril Star – Druidism, connected to above
British
•OBOD – The Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids –Druidry, in the URL of their site
•AOD – The Ancient Order of Druids -Druidism
•Philip Carr-Gomm's website –Uses both
•Druidcast – a druid podcast -Druidry
•TDN – The Druid Network –“ Informing, Inspiring and Facilitating Druidry as a Religion”
•BDO – The British Druid Order –“ Rekindling the sacred fires of Druidry as a living, breathing, Earth-honouring and deeply life-affirming spirituality for the 21st century.”
•Council Of British Druid Orders – (CoBDO) -Druidry
•Caer Clud –Broken link
Canadian
•Celtic Faith of Greater Ireland (French) –In French, doesn’t matter for the English wiki
•Canadian Druid Confederation – Broken Link
Irish
•The Irish College of Druids “The ancient stream of Irish Druidry continues to flow strongly in our
modern world.”
•Irish Druid Network Directory –Uses Both
•Hibernian Order of Druids –Broken Link
Galician
•IDG - Pan-Galician Druidic Fellowship (Portuguese) –Again, this is the English wiki
So, in case you did not want to read all of that, of the links provided that worked, 12 used Druidry, 5 used Druidism, and 3 used both, a majority for Druidry.  Furthermore, that includes repeats and non-organizational links like personal websites.   Counting only the main website for organizations, we have a 10 to 4 ratio in favor of Druidry.  Should we not use the term that most Neo-Druid Organizations and websites deemed significant to link to on Wikipedia use? Thunderstone99 (talk) 03:12, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: 'Druidism' is the older term, well-established before 'Druidry' was invented.  I have no problem mentioning the term 'Druidry' (it would be irresponsible not to), but 'Druidism' should have top billing. Your survey is not very scientific;  the RDNA site, e.g., may use 'Druidry' somewhere, but all the core documents use 'Druidism'. -- Elphion (talk) 05:08, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with Thunderstone99, and have moved the page. Pass a Method talk 14:35, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted it because looking at various sources on Google Scholar and Google Books, and the term hits (taking into account WP:GNUM), it looks like Druidism is used much more often than Druidry, which appears to be a rather seldomly used term by comparison. - SudoGhost 15:21, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wikipedia usually words religious groups by how its adherents define themselves. We have had havelf a dozen requests from Druid members to renme this page in its archives. I'm dissapointed with the revert. Pass a Method talk 15:24, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You're welcome to open a WP:RM, but I don't think that because a few sources can been given that says some adherants call themselves such doesn't it means that makes it the article's the WP:COMMONNAME for the subject. It's probably true that Wikipedia usually titles articles by what adherents call themselves, but that would only be because those self-descriptors are usually in line with what the majority of reliable sources use as well; if they differ then the policy takes precedence. - SudoGhost 15:29, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Druidry, not Druidism 

message: This article seems to conflate a history of druidism that came from Welsh and British nationalism with Fraternal Orders so common in the 19th Century (in response to the powerful networks of Freemasonry) and Neo-Paganism. While there may be slight overlap in time and membership of these different movements, they are not fundamentally the same. In particular the Fraternal Orders of Druids that developed in the 19th Century had very little to do with neo-paganism until perhaps the late 20th Century when the organisations were made up of a diminished and predominantly aging population. To be blunt, this article seems written from the POV of neo-druidism, with a writing backwards of history to include the earlier movements. I strongly urge that if it is an article on neo-pagan Druidism then it should focus on those religious movements, with the other aspects in new articles, or that it should adopt a neutral tone until the section of modern spiritual druidismBrunswicknic (talk) 14:28, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with this, but the date can be more precise.  Neo-paganism did not become associated with Druidism in America until about 1974, when it was pushed enthusiastically in Reformed Druidism (RDNA) by Isaac Bonewits (to the dismay of many older members).  In prior years (roughly from 1969) Bonewits had experimented with Neo-paganism at the Berkeley Grove of RDNA. I can't speak to the situation in Britain. -- Elphion (talk) 15:41, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Elphion, you remind me that the Fraternal order of Druids were big in Melbourne, and perhaps other cities in Australia, but faded away by the end of the 20th Centry with as far as I know no connections with neo-druidic paganism. In Swanston Street Melbourne, there is the fantastic Druid House, 19th Century, about 5-6 storeys with a 2-3m figure of a druid standing looking down upon the passer-bysBrunswicknic (talk) 11:30, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Welsh and other Nationalism vs Fraternal Orders vs Neo-Paganism 

message: Neo-Druidism →   I withdraw the request per below input.Pass a Method talk 22:22, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: * Per WP:RM: "Note: Nominators should usually not add a separate support !vote, as the nomination itself qualifies as a !vote" - SudoGhost 16:26, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *I just added a qualifier to make it clear it's me Pass a Method talk 16:43, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

text:  By archive i meant the above threads as well as the archives. That makes two. Pass a Method talk 18:26, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename 

message: In the section "Afterlife" the Reformed Druids of North America are used to show that some Neo-Druids do not believe in reincarnation. I am familiar with the Reformed Druids of North America as being a satirical organization having very little to do with actual Druidry, so I believe that a different example, if once exists, should be used to show that some Druids do not believe in reincarnation. I possess no knowledge of such a group, so am incapable of making the proper contributions myself. I encourage those more knowledgeable about the topic to make the proper edits, or perhaps to provide reasons why the Reformed Druids of North America should be kept as an example. 67.5.25.53 (talk) 00:24, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: RDNA certainly began as a "satirical organization", but it developed a deep spiritual side as well.  Saying that it has "little to do with actual Druidry" shows that you are entertaining a preconceived notion about what Druidism is, or should be.  RDNA remains a good example of Neo-Druidism -- in my opinion, one of greater substance that most of the other groups that go by that name. -- Elphion (talk) 01:39, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reformed Druids of North America 

message: Hello. I have been searching for the scholarship on the word Wirdjos. I noticed that a chart which appeared on an earlier edit of this page circa 2005 included Wirdjos as a name of Viridios. Does anyone know where that chart came from or what sources were used to construct it? It seems to have been removed from Wikipedia quite awhile ago, but still appears elsewhere, albeit without further sourcing. Thank you for any help you can offer. Wirdjos (talk) 20:13, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Celtic Mythology Contributions

message: As of May 2021, the "Pagan Druidry in Europe" section of this article happily declares that, because "the Celtic Druid Temple (Ireland) [..] are legally registered [as a charity] in their respective countries, hence Druidry being an officially recognised religion in those territories". 
In Ireland, being a registered charity is not the same as being a recognised religion. It just isn't.
The Charities Regulator in Ireland, for example, may be an official "registrar of charities", but that does not make it an official "recogniser of religions". (In Ireland at least, receiving a registration as a charity is not the same as receiving recognition as a religion. And to claim it does is silly. If the operator of an Irish donkey sanctuary registers it as a charity [so she can legally fundraise for that charity], does that bestow additional religious recognition on the operator? Or the donkeys? Hint: No. It doesn't.)
It may be that Druidry has received recognition as a religion in some of the (other) listed territories, but the claims in relation to Ireland are dubious at best. And (at a glance) the claims relative to some of the charity/tax registrations in other countries also seem to be a stretch. 
I have removed Ireland from the list. As it is quite clear that the charity registrar's entry should not (and cannot) be read as religious recognition. (As that is not that body's function.) Ideally someone else might qualify and clarify (without the apparent OR currently at play) whether and where Druidry is actually "officially recognised religion in those territories". To my read the claim is based on apparent WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. (In that the text comes to "a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources"). Ideally there would be more explicit sources, like that seen for the similar claim made in respect of the status afforded to The Druid Network in England and Wales (towards the end of the article). Guliolopez (talk) 02:11, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been almost 2 weeks since my note above. And I haven't heard any other thoughts. And so I've removed the apparent synth. (Those sources support the assertion that those organisations are registered charities. None directly support the suggestion that "hence that also means recognition as a religion".) Registration of a charity is not equivalent to recognition of a religion. Nor does the latter automatically follow from the former. Guliolopez (talk) 20:23, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious 

message: "Gorsedd, one of the 18th century traditions that were founded by Morganwg, became part of the 12th century Eisteddfod festival.[17]"
Either the sentence is ambigious as it refers to fabricated sources (by Morganwg) which imply that a specific tradition (Gorsedd) has been a historic part of the Eisteddfod festival ... or I forgot to read the applied timetravel article.
Does my reading comprehension need a little polishing or should this sentences be rewritten? 2003:6:3337:2625:F452:9FF6:50B5:9D1A (talk) 14:32, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I've rewritten it to match the source. It's the Welsh national festival. Doug Weller talk 16:36, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Better, but still not that clear. The initial sentence of this para needs removing because it's a criticism of Morganwg's work, rather than a definition of Druidry. Words like "fabricated" are not neutral POV. It's sufficient to attribute authorship of the ceremonies to Morganwg here. Tim flatus (talk) 14:27, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Academic criticism of the work of Iolo Morganwg, Edward Davies, Sir John Rhŷs, Robert Graves et al. should be moved to a separate section at the end of the article. Tim flatus (talk) 14:39, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unclear/wrong sentence or time travel? 

message: We should be careful when making assertions about Druidic beliefs such as "The Druidic concept of ancestry". Druidry has no scripture, so these sorts of statements need to be contextualised. This concept of "ancestors of the land" is common to many neo-Pagan groups, but is not specific to Druidry. Tim flatus (talk) 17:43, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ancestor veneration 

message: I want to rewrite the entire storytelling paragraph. Andy Letcher is well respected as a Bard, but his comments referenced here do not reflect a sufficiently broad understanding of Druidry. I intend to remove the following completely:
'Bards utilise archaic words such as "t'was", "thence", and "deeds", while speaking in a grandiose manner of intonation. The general purpose of bardism, according to scholar of religion and bard Andy Letcher, is to create an "ambience" of "a catchall ahistorical past; a Celtic, medieval, Tolkienesque, once-upon-a-time enchanted world".'
It is not a useful description. I also feel that discussion of musical instruments is somewhat irrelevant as this all applies to a particular style of historical reconstruction, which tells us nothing of the role and skill set expected of a Bard. Tim flatus (talk) 18:01, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: That done, I now see problems with the whole section. I will restructure it to explain the role of Bards within Druidry. Tim flatus (talk) 13:59, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arts and poetry