Talk:Filiberto Ojeda Ríos

message: Recently an editor attempted to the add the following to the article, "...(FOR was one) of the founders of the FALN (a Marxist-Leninist terrorist group which fought to transform Puerto Rico into a communist state during the 1970s)." This was reverted with the edit summary stating that it was "Contentious material lacking secondary sources". I am curious, since this was the plainly self-stated goal of the FALN, how is this material "contentious"?  Hammersbach (talk) 14:31, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The source, latinamericanstudies is not a secondary/reliable source. The particular webpage doesn't have attribution for the document in question. If the material is not contentious then I believe plenty of secondary sources will sustain the statement. Wikipedia is not a depository of fringe ideas. I will keep reverting the material per WP:BLP. I urge the editor in question to read WP:BLP and WP:OR.  --Jmundo (talk) 15:05, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I trust the Chicago Tribune is reliable enough?  Hammersbach (talk) 17:23, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

text: *I don't see the word "communist" ever mentioned in the Chicago Tribune article you are proffering. The word "terrorist" is not found in the Tribune article either. (And, BTW, even if "terrorist" was found in the Tribune article it means nothing, since "terrorist" is a POV label. We *can* use sources using it but only report that such-and-such said they were terrorist, but *not* to alleged they actually were because the such-and-such individual has to have the authority to make such determination/allegation to be taken seriously/officially. For example, prominent John Doe writer from prominent Big City Times newspaper could say that George Washington was a mentally retarded, but does it matter if John Doe did not have a degree in Mental Health and had an extensive track record of successfully diagnosing and treating such disease? It is shameful that so-called longstanding editors are so obfuscated by their own indoctrination that they fall for such "terrorist" claims easier than a 10-year-old falling for the Santa-Claus-is-real story.) It is such lack of reliability that makes the statement contentious for User:Jmundo, and makes it contentious for me too. Mercy11 (talk) 03:31, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

text: And it has been determined that original citation is a reliable secondary source,  Hammersbach (talk) 14:00, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

text: *Excuse me? No such "determination" ever came out of that discussion. Several editors shared their opinions but there was no consensus, let alone clear consensus, which would be more in line with your "it has been determined" qualification. No offense, but to state that an isolated posting of an (alleged) original document allegedly from the FALN coming exclusively from a single source (i.e., never confirmed by anyone else, not even the US Govt) and, namely, also a sole university professor's personal webpage, a professor known for his radical ultra-right views against anything Cuban, anything socialist and anything communist can hardly be considered by any NPOV editor to be anything but questionable at best and really brings the fairness of your judgement into question. The discussion over there ended in a stalemate with multiple editors shooting in different directions and with the one radical editor that took the stubborn stance and sided with the source being reliable never retuning to debunk the much more enlightened thoughts of editors that followed him. The fact that the quote is still in the article shouldn't give you the idea that it has been accepted by the other editors here (as you can see). At Wikipedia we do not wholeheartedly and unconditionally embrace as reliable sources with such a laundry bag of stigma surrounding it, especially when, as in this case, its reliability has been brought into question by several (established) editors. When there is a decisive agreement that the source is reliable, then you can make the sort of "mission accomplished", "it has been determined", statement above. Nothing personal, its the way we do "business" at Wikipedia. Mercy11 (talk) 03:31, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I would be curious to see how many editors would agree with your assessment of that discussion. I know I got a good chuckle! :-) Hammersbach (talk) 14:01, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Contentious? 

message: Additional editors will be drawn to this group of FALN articles, e.g, Oscar Lopez Rivera, by the tag. This is happening slowly. Progress toward neutralizing its tone isn't helped by reversions from the same group of editors who have controlled the article's content in the past. Eudemis (talk) 22:55, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur with the above comment. The tag should remain. Hammersbach (talk) 22:58, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't throw around POV banners to draw other editors or merely because we concur with someone else's opinion. You place the banner when you have identified brought up and started a discussion of a specific POV issue in this talk page, something you failed to do. [[[WP:IJDLI]] is not a specific POV issue, and that's what appears you have identified so far. When you identify such significant POV per WP:NPOVD, then placement of the banner will be in order. Identify the issue to be resolved and then we can reinstate the banner. Mercy11 (talk) 09:55, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The issues concerning the neutrality of this article, specifically the lack thereof, is ongoing.  Please see the applicable sections above on this page. Hammersbach (talk) 11:22, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you be more specific? I don't see any such ongoing issues. Remember, if you put up the banner it is your responsibility to back it up. "See above" is ambiguous and unhelpful. Thanks. Mercy11 (talk) 18:19, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: First, you are misapplying WP:Burden. Please reread the policy at your leisure. Second, you have been an active participant in the discussions dealing with the lack of neutrality of this article. I am sure that a simple cursory review of the previous discussions will be more than enough to bring yourself back up to speed. Cheers, Hammersbach (talk) 19:44, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV banner 

message: Regarding this edit, his nationality is Puerto Rican and, invoking WP:IAR, it should appear listed because many editors (and many readers) still argue that PR is part of the US (which it isn't) and which would make his nationality American if we just go by birthplace, yet he was fighting the US Govt as a Puerto Rican, not as an American. Because his notability has to do with this precise matter of a nationality seprate from the US nationality the entry should be allowed to be displayed. Thank you Mercy11 (talk) 02:37, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: , The subject is known for disagreements with the U.S. which is why the organizations he led are listed in the infobox. Are there sources that list his nationality as only Puerto Rican and not a U.S. national? Did he legally renounce his U.S. nationality? I don't see any mention of his nationality or citizenship in the article. Per H:IB, the infobox should only contain info cited in the article. Is it accurate to only list one nationality in the infobox if he has multiple? I think the best and most simple situation is to leave that parameter out of the infobox. Readers can infer that he was born, raised, and died on the island. TJMSmith (talk) 03:37, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. I agree, though on grounds different from those you are arguing. Net effect, though, is the same. We will need to revisit this later, most likely. thx, Mercy11 (talk) 18:38, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Nationality

message: Removed from the article and pasted below. Is it confirmed that the report below is under a public domain license? If not, it is a copy violation in it's current state. TJMSmith (talk) 04:18, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commission report