Talk:Kalaripayattu

message: Can you add these quotes under nair kalari training quote to give better views that ‘lower caste’ ‘Untouchables’ also practiced Kalaripayattu extensively. I’m afraid if I add maybe if it is disruptive. :Chekavar are lower caste and untouchable according to Kerala caste system.
(Even on a broader way , once practiced Buddhism, later opposed ‘Brahmins’ and failed to do so and made into lower caste untouchables.)
They were extensively practicing Kalaripayattu,and may even attribute to origin of kalari to these groups rather than North Indian Brahmins to Kerala
This quote under nair kalari training quote will give a broader historical view and will balance the section. Afv12e (talk) 12:46, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Those quotes come from :Chekavar, I guess? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:00, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes Afv12e (talk) 13:01, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thiyyas, therefor. I'll take a closer look. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:03, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Well i have been reading these pages related to nair, ezhava/thiyya . The fact is that malabar was a term used to denote the entire kerala , before british forming the malabar district in northern kerala . Similarly Dutch Malabar means central kerala or kochin where the thiyya variations of ezhava tribe  are not present .Thus its better to mention chekavar it is a title used by the entire subgroup . Mentioned in the main page ezhava under the section "variation". Chegos or chekavar do not entirely translates to any subdivision of izhava tribe . I was reading the book the anthropology of cochin state (dutch malabar) , and the entire thiyya/ezhava of central kerala are mentioned as chegos or chekavars in that ,a short description of that is provided in the main page ezhava too. Bilgiljilll (talk) 15:15, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

text: the point is that the first point reference, avf provided belong to british malabar or north kerala where they are called as thiyya or sometimes ezhava , and the second reference of  dutch malabar is from central kerala where the thiyya variation is not present this can create disambiguation. So if adding this its better to mention the present or common accepted name in bracket inorder to avoid the confusion and to mention the correct words. For eg a sentence like thiyyas from dutch Malabar (kochi) will be wrong because even though they are a subgroup of the ezhava tribe from the north side, as per wikipedia and from the sources i have seen the word thiyya is not used to refer central kerala people of this tribe. Thus if adding the word 'chegos' as per what is written in the source need to be mentioned correctly. Bilgiljilll (talk) 15:35, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Malabar District(Northern kerala) , Dutch Malabar(central kerala) , Malabar Coast (entire kerala) , Malabar .  Providing the links for better understading. Bilgiljilll (talk) 15:40, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: ￼Dutch Malabar is also called cochin.its defenitely different from the british malabar where these variation is called thiyyas so the word chego as per the governor used suits the best and also its better to give cochin in bracket . Bilgiljilll (talk) 15:44, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

text: Well this makes some sense , but the disambiguation related to the region need to be cleared as i discussed. But i disagree with using words like lower , higher , inferior , superior etc. Just because they were marked so doesnt mean that always they are, also this is not related to the heirarchy at all. Bilgiljilll (talk) 15:53, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Just keep ’chekavar’ , let’s not make things complicated at the very first stage. We can discuss the geographical differences later once this is added.
This addition would balance the article and give a broader picture of kalari practice and give a sense of origin as well. Complicating on this would again make time taking. 
@Bilgiljilll Afv12e (talk) 16:51, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added the quotes. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 17:40, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Chekavar

message: === Antiquity ===
Zarrilli (1994), ACTUALIZING POWER(S) AND CRAFTING A SELF IN KALARIPPAYATTU :
Classical Antiquity = ca. 500 BCE-500 CE. Zarrilli also writes that :Dhanurveda was a source of kalari-techniques. In that case, we can go back much further in time, to the Indo-Aryans and the :Sintashta culture, 3rd millennium BCE, warrior-tribes undoubtly highly skilled at combat techniques. Not something to include, but worth to give a thought. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:39, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Some observations

message: Zarrilli (1994), ACTUALIZING POWER(S) AND CRAFTING A SELF IN KALARIPPAYATTU :
Classical Antiquity = ca. 500 BCE-500 CE. Zarrilli also writes that :Dhanurveda was a source of kalari-techniques. In that case, we can go back much further in time, to the Indo-Aryans and the :Sintashta culture, 3rd millennium BCE, warrior-tribes undoubtly highly skilled at combat techniques. Not something to include, but worth to give a thought. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:39, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antiquity 

message: Another intriguing comment by Zarrilli:
Compare the Zen-koan from the Blue Cliff Record case 89, "Hands and Eyes All Over" (or "The Hands and Eyes of the Bodhisattva of Great Compassion"); idem Book of Serenity Case 54; Dogen's Mana Shobogenzo ("Dogen's 300 koans") Case 105, also in Dogen's Kana Shobogenzo, chapters Daishugyo and Kannon:
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 12:01, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The body becomes all eyes" 

message: The word 'Kalari' (களரி) for combat ground is found Akam 54th verse in Sangam verses, where the poem is describing a combat like duals , where warriors come and fighthttps://sangamtamilliterature.wordpress.com/%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%AE%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%B4%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%89%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%88-%E0%AE%AA%E0%AE%9F%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%9F%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%A9%E0%AE%AA%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%AA%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%88/:
Notes:   வலன் (67) – பொ. வே. சோமசுந்தரனார் உரை, நெடுநல்வாடை (1) – வலப் பக்கம், வலன் ஏர்பு – அகநானூறு 43, 84, 188, 278, 298, 328, நற்றிணை 37, 264, 328, குறுந்தொகை 237, ஐங்குறுநூறு 469, பதிற்றுப்பத்து 24, 31, நெடுநல்வாடை 1, பட்டினப்பாலை 67, முல்லைப்பாட்டு 4, திருமுருகாற்றுப்படை 1, மதுரைக்காஞ்சி 5 – வல மாதிரத்தான் வளி கொட்ப.  கல் எறியும் கவண் வெரீஇ (73) – பொ. வே. சோமசுந்தரனார் உரை – பனை மரத்து உச்சியில் இலக்கு வைத்து எறிதலின் ஆண்டு வாழும் பறவைகள் ஓடின என்க.  இங்கனம் இலக்குக் கொண்டு கல்லால் எறிதல் உண்மையால் ஆண்டு நிற்கும் பனைகள் கல்லேற்றின் வடுவுடையன என்பார், புகார்ப் போந்தை என்றார்.
Meanings:   முது மரத்த – with old trees, முரண் களரி – arena where brave men show off their strength, வரி மணல் – sand ripples, stripes of sand, அகன் திட்டை- wide mounds, இருங்கிளை – big group of relatives, இனன் ஒக்கல் – clan people, related people (இனன் – இனம் என்பதன் போலி), கருந்தொழில் – war business, harsh business, கலி மாக்கள் – arrogant warriors, proud warriors, கடல் இறவின் – ocean shrimp’s, சூடு தின்றும் – roasted the flesh and ate, வயல் ஆமை – field tortoises, புழுக்கு உண்டும் – boiled and ate, வறள் அடும்பின் – adumpu flowers in dry sand, Ipomoea pes caprae, மலர் மலைந்தும் – adorned with flowers, புனல் ஆம்பல் – white water lilies growing in water, பூச்சூடியும் – wearing flowers, நீல் நிற விசும்பின் – in the blue sky (நீல் – கடைக்குறை, poetical license which consists in the shortening of a word by elision of one or more letters in the end), வலன் ஏர்பு – climb on the right side, climb with strength, திரிதரும் – roaming, நாள்மீன் விராய – with the stars, with the sun, கோள்மீன் போல – like the planets, மலர்தலை மன்றத்து – in the vast common grounds, பலருடன் குழீஇ – joining together with many others (குழீஇ – அளபெடை), கையினும் – with their hands, கலத்தினும் – with their weapons, மெய் உறத் தீண்டி – hitting body against body, பெருஞ்சினத்தால் – with great anger, புறக்கொடாஅது – not showing their backs and leaving (அளபெடை), இருஞ்செருவின் – in huge battles, இகல் – enmity, மொய்ம்பினோர் – men with strong bodies, கல் எறியும் கவண் வெரீஇ – fearing the stones shot by slingshots (வெரீஇ – அளபெடை, வெருவி என்ற வினையெச்சம் திரிந்து அளபெடுத்தது), புள் – birds, இரியும் – move away, flee, புகர்ப் போந்தை – palmyra palms with spots
Considering 
Also Word Kalari used here with the scenario of martial arts fighting between two, The martial arts should be old as such and in the lead it says Kalari originated in 1200 ce, which much recent. 
We have the quote of Duarte Barossa died at 1521 talking on Kalari training and can't image that kalari developed just 300 years back of that. 
Just a google results, and can be seen in many articles:
 Afv12e (talk) 04:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:OR and WP:DONTGETIT. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:15, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kalaripayattu - Age