Talk:Royal Banner of Scotland

message: Why is an unreliable blog used as a reference?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.2.198 (talk) 01:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: *I was wondering why the article dosent mention about the usage of this flag being limited to royalty and certain dignitaries only.The article just casually mentions that the act of using the flag is illigal in sporting events, it does not however mention the reason behind it.Also if I'm not mistaken, now days they allow the general public to use the flag on certain specific days of national celebration.I'll add this to the article if there's no disagreements.--Pavithran 14:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Usage Banned

message: I think that this article is actually about an armorial banner. A Standard is a completely different vexillological item. Perhaps this article could be edited along the lines of the Royal Standard of Great Britain article, which makes clear that this usage of the word "standard" is strictly incorrect, though widely used.--Eva db 11:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Standard or Armorial Banner

message: I'm new to Wikipedia.
Hey, I made an edit to the article Royal Standard of Scotland, which is the article you get re-directed to when you search for "lion rampant".
Exactly I added this -
The Lion Rampant, as the Standard of Scotland, has also been called the "Scottish National Standard" in the context of its use by a Scottish republican when asserting a claim of right to use this traditional leadership flag of the Scots.
===Stop spamming, Peter Dow===
This, fellow Wikipedians, is a good example of a troll, he seems to be oblivious to the fact that NO ONE shares his extremist opinions, I have seen videos by this nasty piece of work on Youtube, in which he says he wants to commit terrorism and regicide- TashkentFox 15:27, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Lion Rampant when used by a Scottish Republican 

message: This, fellow Wikipedians, is a good example of a troll, he seems to be oblivious to the fact that NO ONE shares his extremist opinions, I have seen videos by this nasty piece of work on Youtube, in which he says he wants to commit terrorism and regicide- TashkentFox 15:27, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Stop spamming, Peter Dow

message: *Scottish National Standard Bearer: Peter Dow
But the change I made has been reverted back to the original and I'm none the wiser who did it or why.
Now if there is no agreement on even mentioning Scottish republicans who use the lion rampant or linking to such an external site, maybe I should write a new article, named "Lion Rampant"?
User talk:Peter Dow
Don't add links to your own website to Wikipedia, it is considered to be spam. The link is not considered to be important. Astrotrain 13:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: External links

message: Are the Lion Rampant and the Royal Standard of Scotland the same thing?
The lion rampant is frequently mentioned as a component of coats of arms, yet this refers to the red, guling(?), lion as also seen on the Royal Standard of Scotland, not the standard itself. For an example of this see Clan MacDuff.
I am curious about the origins of the Lion Rampant. How did a red Lion come to represent Scotland? In medieval times, how did the Scots even know about Lions? I think this is a subject separate from the Royal Standard of Scotland.
--Fergie 10:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lions would be known- Romans fed the Christains to lions remember. Astrotrain 10:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: There are no end of lions on Pictish stones. David killing the lion or Daniel in the lions den were popular religious themes, the one for kings, the other for saints. Most likely they were copied from imported materials from the Eastern Med or beyond. One image is thought to have been copied from silverware made in Afghanistan. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 10:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But why the 'Lion Rampant'? Where did this style of heraldic lion first originate?--Fergie 11:04, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: William I is the man who picked it, and he wasn't very original. It's a very, very common symbol. Flanders (black lion, gold field), Brabant (gold lion, black field), Limburg (red lion, white field), Zeeland (red lion, gold field), the Netherlands (gold lion, blue field), Halland (white lion, blue field), Västergötland (gold and black lion on a black and gold field) and Smaland (red line, gold field) are just some of the places with rampant-ish lions on their arms or flags. No doubt someone will claim to have been first. I imagine William copied someone else's arms, changing the colours, rather than being inspired by the sight of a lion. Or maybe he did see one: James V kept one at Stirling Castle, so you never know. Better yet, Edgar sent a camel, or maybe an elephant, as a gift to the High King of Ireland in 1105: "In the above year a camel, an animal of remarkable size, was brought from the king of Alba to Muirchertach Ua Briain." It doesn't do to imagine that Scotland was at the end of the world [well, it was, but it wasn't the back of beyond if you see what I mean] in times past. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 11:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Other examples: Royal Arms of Norway (very similar to the Scottish arms, but reversed colours) and the arms of Gothenburg (the city was founded by Scots, Dutch and Germans). (Pedantic note: its Småland, with an "å"). --Mais oui! 11:54, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are the Lion Rampant and the Royal Standard of Scotland the same thing? 

message: If proportions for the Standard listed in the infobox is correct the Standard should look different with height bigger than the width. Can somebody clarify whether Standard should be changed according to proportions or vice a versa?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thorbins (talk • contribs) 07:43, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I could find no other reference to the flag ratio/proportions other than the house flag example at the Lyon website linked to in the article. Britannica online shows an almost square example, but again no mention is made of a ratio. Also, the Standard of the Duke of Rothesay in the Chapel of the Order of the Thistle in St. Giles' Kirk looks as though it is of a ratio which differs from the other examples which accompany it. Don't quite know if the 1:2 ratio usually seen is merely down to convenience on the part of flag manufacturers, but if someone else can find another reference please include it, or anyone with a creative knack for .svg design please add a 5:4 "house flag" example. Endrick Shellycoat 22:35, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: May be proportions simply not fixed as with Saltire. Nothing really says anything about proportions and on the picture from Britannica they look like 4:5 rather than 5:4  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thorbins (talk • contribs) 01:47, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps, but unlike in the case of the Saltire, there is no reference I've found which states that it's proportions are "not fixed". The only reference dealing with a ratio is that which Lyon Court states with regard to personal banners: "Flown over the house it denotes that the armiger is there, and as a house flag its proportions are 5:4. The size of a house flag depends on the height of the building and the pole, and it should be large enough to be intelligible at the height at which it is flown."  Endrick Shellycoat 23:23, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well then I guess image should be redrawn to make it 5:4  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thorbins (talk • contribs) 07:28, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not so fast... on reflection, the Royal Standard of Scotland is not used as a house flag to "denote that the armiger (HMQ) is there"; instead it is used in other instances as outlined in the article. The example in the infobox is identical in design and ratio to that shown on the Lyon Court website, therefore IMHO it is entirely appropriate for the infobox in that respect. Endrick Shellycoat 20:31, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it somehow possible to ask the officials about correct proportions, or kind of stated while official proportions is 5:4 in practice 1:2/3:5 is used  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thorbins (talk • contribs) 01:32, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sadly in this case, anything not in the public domain, such as a personal e-mail correspondence or similar which are not WP:RS or WP:V compliant, cannot be used. The Lyon Court website only mentions a ratio with regard to one particular instance, and the only other guide is the visual representation on the site itself. The article itself does mention that flag manufacturers use alternative ratios and, to be honest, I think the whole flag ratio issue has been overtaken somewhat by the flag manufacturers themselves dictating what size is most convenient for them as opposed to following any protocol - I suspect it is easier to purchase a Swiss flag in a ratio of 1:2 rather than the correct ratio of 1:1. Unless another definitive source can be found then I suggest we have to leave things as they stand. I'd like to put "not fixed" as the ratio b ut until I can find a source then the only ratio associated with a standard is 5:4. Endrick Shellycoat 22:34, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag proportions 

message: I happened to be over at Portal:Ireland and noticed that this article features prominently in their 'Did you know?' section:
* "...that the Royal Standard of Scotland may have its origins in a Milesian symbol brought from Ireland in the 6th century?"
See also:
* Milesians (Irish)
Are there any solid academic refs that could be used on this article?
Ta, --Mais oui! (talk) 04:39, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There are a couple in the History section. Endrick Shellycoat 10:52, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: None of those are "solid academic refs". Both were written over a century ago. It's not a coincidence that the wildest claims in Wikipedia articles on Scottish topics tend to be based off out-of-date sources. McAndrew's book is used a couple times in the article, I think that or something published in recent years would be a much better source for facts about the early arms.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 04:50, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess on your criteria the Bible would be an "out-of-date source"? 81.135.131.228 (talk) 23:45, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The Bible would be a primary source. The sources we are talking about are Victorian secondary sources. Historians today interpret primary sources differently than they did back then. Modern scholars might not consider the Milesian tales to have any bearing on Scottish heraldry.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:11, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: No less interesting, but it's the other way around. The lion on the flag of the 1220s was used by some Irish clans adopting heraldry in the 1500s. Those clans who claimed a kinship with the Dalriadic dynasty used the lion to confirm the link. The records have been kept since the 1500s by the Genealogical Office that still grants arms in Ireland.86.42.207.133 (talk) 15:11, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Milesians origins? 

message: I was curious if anyone knew this. Beyond495 (talk) 18:06, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't necessarily mean anything.  Tongues and teeth are customarily painted in a contrasting tincture: usually red unless the beast or the field is red, otherwise blue.  It's simply a way of making some of the beast's distinctive attributes stand out.  —Tamfang (talk) 00:01, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  History Behind The Armed and Langued Azure 

message: According to royal.gov.uk, the Queen’s official banner in Scotland is named the Royal Banner of the Royal Arms of Scotland. I'm not actually sure where the phrase Royal Standard of Scotland originates. Sources appear to suggest that the term Royal Standard came into use after the 16th century to refer to the combined English–Scottish banner, when the English Royal Standards (an entirely different style of flag) ceased to be used, suggesting that the Lion Rampant has never been referred to as a Royal Standard (except in modern, unofficial usage). Possibly, it's more correct to refer to it as a Royal Banner, as opposed to a Royal Standard. There is also a version of the Royal Standard of the United Kingdom for use in Scotland, making Royal Standard of Scotland a little ambiguous. Thoughts? Rob (talk | contribs) 17:36, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Royal Standard'' or ''Royal Banner''? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Royal Standard of Scotland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20140826114736/https://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Symbols/TheRoyalBanneroftheRoyalArmsofScotland.aspx to https://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Symbols/TheRoyalBanneroftheRoyalArmsofScotland.aspx
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20130630062430/https://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Symbols/UnionJack.aspx to http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Symbols/UnionJack.aspx
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20100310021914/http://www.royal.gov.uk:80/HistoryoftheMonarchy/KingsandQueensoftheUnitedKingdom/KingsandQueensoftheUnitedKingdom.aspx to http://www.royal.gov.uk/HistoryoftheMonarchy/KingsandQueensoftheUnitedKingdom/KingsandQueensoftheUnitedKingdom.aspx
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20091228092409/http://www.royal.gov.uk:80/MonarchUK/Symbols/RoyalStandard.aspx to http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Symbols/RoyalStandard.aspx
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 14:17, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Royal Banner of Scotland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100423223148/http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/nmCentre/images/openingCeremony/PreviewPages/PreviewPage65.htm to http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/nmCentre/images/openingCeremony/PreviewPages/PreviewPage65.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120301181901/http://www.djmcgeachie.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60&sid=8a73745574828ff4e1edcebf28785078 to http://www.djmcgeachie.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60&sid=8a73745574828ff4e1edcebf28785078
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:18, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: 1. The section "Appearance in other royal flags" shows some royal flags that use the lion rampart. Some also use the harp which is as anachronistic as the fleur-de-lis. When George III gave up on France and George V gave up on Ireland those symbols should have been removed from the standards.
2. The second, fourth and fifth images in the gallery are pointless because the flags are so tiny no detail can be made out of them. Those images are useless.
ICE77 (talk) 05:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It's still officially the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". AnonMoos (talk) 23:32, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever, dude -- in 1922 or thereabouts, the UK government authorities made a decision not to remove the so-called "Patrick" cross from the UK flag, or the harp quartering from the coat of arms.  They didn't ask you for advice, and I'm not too sure how your personal opinion on the matter is relevant to improving this Wikipedia article... AnonMoos (talk)
1. I really was not looking for a childish opinion from somebody with so much attitude and knowledge but I guess the world is full of babies that really know how to use computers nowadays. Aside from the fact I was not born 100+ years ago so my opinion would have never had any weight, it is important to point out that the opinion of millions of Irish who were alive at that time did not count at that time either and most Britons probably did not care either. It's obvious the UK government never had any plan to remove the red saltire from the Union Jack, especially in 1922, the year of Irish independence. It would have been equivalent to admitting they did not own most of Ireland anymore, a claim that started in 1169 with Henry II. Losing the Angevin Empire after the Hundred Years War was already a painful memory. Besides, the cost of replacing millions of flags across the UK would have been costly so there was no logic, impetus or interest behind such an inconvenient decision. The red cross, let's face it, is not even the topic I was discussing. Aside from the fleur-de-lis and the harp, the red cross is equally if not more out of place and anachronistic. It's nothing more than the perpetration of the tenets of people of the caliber of Henry II, Edward I or Henry VIII, all kings who were obsessed with power and dominion. The Union Jack should look like the one from 1606. It's a matter of fact but it's out of the scope of this discussion. I'm just pointing to fleur-de-lis and harp as symbols. This is not a matter of opinions. It's a matter of historical facts.
ICE77 (talk) 01:28, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: If anyone is a petulant "baby" here, it's you, since you seem to be suffering under the delusion that your personal opinions will somehow change the real world outside Wikipedia, when in truth very few would even care about them at all.  If the Irish government has an objection to the so-called "Patrick" cross in the Union Jack or the harp quartering in the Royal arms, then it will lodge a diplomatic protest, but you won't be involved in that process.  And it's simply a fact, whether you personally like it or not, that Heraldry does not instantaneously respond to geopolitical changes -- for instance the English/British royal arms had a quartering for France from the middle ages until 1837 (still present to this day in the coat of arms of Canada).  Meanwhile, the purpose of this page is for discussions about IMPROVING the "Royal Banner of Scotland" Wikipedia article, and not for you to go off on personal ranting tirades... AnonMoos (talk) 03:19, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harp/fleur-de-lis use in royal flags and useless photographs