Talk:Article 153 of the Constitution of Malaysia

message: "They came here under work permits during the British rule while the British had promised the Malay sultanates that the immigrants were to return to their countries once their work permits expired."
In my knowledge of history of Malaysia, some immigrants (often Indians) came at their own expenses to travel to Malaya to work (source:Form4 History textbook and umm chapter 10). Therefore, not all immigrants came with work permits and did not promise to return to their home country. Sandakanboy 15:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: removing this sentence

message: While copyediting, I found this sentence..."Eventually, the Tunku decided to ask Lee to secede from Malaysia. Eventually, Lee agreed to do so, and Singapore became an independent nation in 1965." 
Should this read "Eventually, the Tunku decided to ask Singapore to secede from Malaysia." rather? 
What was Lee's position as a politician? *Exeunt* Ganymead Dialogue? 17:46, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the disagreement was more with Lee than with Singapore, which is what makes this whole crap so frustrating. We actually have a very long article (PAP-UMNO relations) devoted to just trying to describe the relations between the governing political parties of Malaysia and Singapore. Anyway, I'll try to copyedit that sentence. Johnleemk | Talk 18:10, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Matriculation refers to courses students sit for before entering university itself, so matriculation here is a bit different than in other countries. I've fixed up PKR's stand on the NEP, and removed the accidental duplication of the Kerismuddin incident. I'll cite inline sources when I have more free time. Johnleemk | Talk 17:36, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyedit

message: Should some parts of the full text be wikified if some of the vocabulary hasn't already been mentioned already? Or would it disrupt the style? -- Natalinasmpf 14:33, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  wikify full text? 

message: Very well-written and interesting article; I have two questions: 
# In the lead section, it says "Technically, discussion of abolishing Article 153 is illegal...", but this isn't explained later. Doesn't the Parliament of Malaysia has the power to amend the constitution with 2/3 majority, including this article, let alone discuss about it?
# What are the social effects of this Article 153 and the policies? For example, is this the main reason why many non-Bumiputra students are studying abroad (including many wikipedians!) and why there are so many private colleges in Malaysia? 
Thanks in advance. --Vsion 11:05, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Paragraph 3 of subsection "Present opposition" explains the legality (or lack of it) regarding the discussion of Article 153. I wouldn't know about Parliament, as the constitution doesn't explain it - it merely authorises Parliament to ban discussion of abolishing Article 153, which Parliament did by passing the Sedition Act. As for the social effects, not much credible writing is available on Article 153. There are a lot of rantings about it, but most of them tend to pertain to Mahathir and the NEP, or just make blanket accusations about Article 153 and related provisions of Malaysian law. As a result, any in-depth writing on Article 153's social effects would be original research. Johnleemk | Talk 11:35, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, sorry I missed that paragraph. Thanks for your reply. --Vsion 11:55, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some questions 

message: They read awkwardly. It reads as though "there was great inequality in 1970, so the commission made a recommendation. It didn't work, and therefore there was rioting in the late 60s." I think the 1970 stats are only being cited as an example of the inequality that led to the rioting, but it reads as though the commission made the report around 1970. Somebody fix. Babajobu 06:49, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct. Fixed. Johnleemk | Talk 17:04, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: First three sentences of controversy section

message: ... countering systematic bias. Kudos to all who worked on this article. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 00:17, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is one of the best explanations of the subject I've encountered.  Great work and great mainpage material. --Vector4F 00:04, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good job... 

message: Is this the best picture that can be found of this guy to illustrate a serious article about the rights of Malaysians?  Good Lord.  Tempshill 00:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair use is difficult to use on this article because it does not deal with Lim himself, and that was the only free image of him I could find. Johnleemk | Talk 03:12, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chowing Down 

message: Where else, encyclopedia-wise, would you find an article on something as obscure yet important as this, at this depth of analysis? Bravo.  --  user:zanimum
:Agreed. I read a lot of this article, and it's pretty interesting and very well-written. Never even knew about it before. Something so controversial should have had a lot more non-NPOV around, but this is pratically 100% NPOV. Great friggin' job. 67.68.153.41 04:16, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also agreed, I came back onto the talk page specifically to thank those who worked on the article - this is the sort of thing that Encyclopedia Brittanica has wet dreams about.  Great choice for a featured article :) Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 05:26, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proof Wikipedia works 

message: I thought the featured article was supposed to be protected?
TJSwoboda 04:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good God... 

message: Good Job. Someone should make it to Bahasa Malaysia, becoz not everybody in malaysia understand english, and this is a topic related to malaysian themself.....i think this article showing some hardcore problem in malaysia07:06, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One would of course do this at Wikipedia Bahasa Melayu.  If some new user does this, please remember to post an interwiki (if you don't know what that is, just leave the URL here).--Pharos 15:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not related to malaysian at all. It's some racist does on the internet.--60.52.16.63 03:06, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  translate this article to Bahasa Malaysia 

message: "some say" is the preceding tag used by partisan organisations to get away with "reporting" fallacious hearsay, i.e., stuff they have just made up.
e.g.
"Some say Senator Kerry is a flip-flopper, who can't make up his mind"
"Some say President Bush is a cowboy, who shoots first and asks questions later" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Titrator (talk • contribs) .
:What you mean is weasel words. However, they are not weaselly if there are sources to back them up. Full stop. Johnleemk | Talk 10:25, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article seems alright to me. This is nonsense, it looks like you are trying to bring down the article, by putting those disputed tags. Oh yes, good job for the work put in. --Terence Ong 10:33, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: :Neutrality:

message: I have two issues I didn't notice earlier. One is the concept of "ostensibly maintaining support" which doesn't logically flow with the concept of "against the implementation" of Article 153; does someone mind correcting this, as I don't know what the specific nuance in meaning is intended for. Secondly, it concerns that the UMNO retaliated the PAP's running for federal elections in Malaysia; I believe it is the other way round, that the PAP retaliated against UMNO for running for Singapore's state elections, so the PAP decided to run in the federal elections (winning one seat). Or were there three elections? Can the dates be cross-referenced from the PAP-UMNO relations article and forth, because it's slightly ambiguous in that area. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 22:15, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Natalina is right about the elections, Singapore's election was in September 1963 , Malaysia election was in April 1964. However, I don't think it was purely a "retaliation", maybe a "response" or "reaction" is better/neutral wording. --Vsion 22:48, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is roughly the same; they were engaged in political conflict. Does it really matter? ;-) Either way is fine by me, although I prefer "retaliation" as it represents the hostile mood then. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 22:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  retaliation + another thought 

message: Wikisource includes the full text of Article 153 - do we need to include it here?  As I understand it, an encyclopedia does not usually contain such extensive quotations from primary sources (see WP:NOT); in addition, the formatting of the beginning of the lines looks rather odd to me from 8 onwards (I see open bullet points - "o" - before 8(a), (b) and (c); then "1. (8A) ..."; then "9 (9) ..."; then "1. (9A) ...").
I appreciate that this article is partly about disputes over the meaning of the text, and that it is a relatively obscure text, but it is already freely available at Wikisource.  -- ALoan (Talk) 22:55, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Text

message: Last sentence of last paragraph of the article introduction: Malaysia has escaped the riots that have plagued other multi-cultural countries in Southeast Asia.
This is surely wrong. The race riots of 1969 are very well documented. If anything, Malaysia has had worse race riots than some of their SE Asian neigbours. --202.12.233.21 00:04, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely you misunderstood the context of the sentences, and most likely the paragraph. The context of the article is set in the late 1990s. Try to read that the whole paragraph again, keeping in mind that the NEP was introduced after 1969. Moreover, the article refers to allegation by its supporter - it's a positive statement, not normative. __earth (Talk) 04:09, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Race Riots

message: its weird why such article was elected for featured article. the article consist of the opposition party POV, which not a major voted by ppl, why would you ppl take that as a citation? --60.52.17.3 21:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: bias, neutrality, NPOV, original research

message: The image :Image:Hisham Keris.jpeg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --14:20, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Hisham Keris.jpeg

message: I removed:
It should be noted that the social contract is not always used with regard to the provisions regarding rights and privileges of the different races; in the 2004 general election, the DAP ran on a platform of defending the social contract in the context of an Islamic theocracy, which they alleged was forbidden by the Constitution, but was endorsed by Mahathir, Lim Keng Yaik and by PAS, the second-largest Malay-based political party in the country.Lim, Kit Siang (2002). "Islamic State - Keng Yaik/Liong Sik/Ah Lek 'Mudah Lupa'". Retrieved 12 November 2005.Lim, Kit Siang (2004). "2004 General Election - survival test for 46-year 'social contract'". Retrieved 12 November 2005.
The source makes no reference to Article 153. Social contract (Malaysia) is linked in the first paragraph of the lead for those seeking more information about the use of the term in Malaysian society. Additionally, these claims are sourced to an opposition party press release. Vassyana (talk) 18:13, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove claims 

message: I've removed the mention of Khir Toyo and the picture along with it . Firstly, Jeff Ooi's blog is probably not a RS (and the link is dead). More importantly, the relevance of people benefiting from article 153 when they shouldn't have because of article 160 in this article is questionable. 
This particularly criticism is silly anyway. Khir Toyo's father may have been an Indonesian, but his mother was a Malaysian Malay AFAIK. Although it may be common in Malaysia to define race by the father, AFAIK there's no legal basis for this in the constitution, definitely article 160 doesn't mention the father. (There is some discrimination based on sex in that a child is a Malaysian citizen even if born outside Malaysia but to a Malaysian father but not if the born to a Malaysian mother.) Even if you do want to follow the father, article 160 doesn't say the father has to be a Malaysian citizen from birth. If his father adopted Malaysian citizen later then he fulfills the requirements and the father doesn't even have to be a Malay himself (it doesn't say anything about the father's heritage in article 160). In fact, it's an often discussed fact that any Malaysian citizen born to a Malaysian citizen, even if both their parents are non Malays (Chinese, Indians even recently immigrated Europeans), would arguably be considered a Malay if they embrace Islam, the Malay language and customs. 
Now there may be some valid criticism of the rich enjoying the privileges of article 153 particularly when poor non Malays do not, but this needs a better source and it should be focused on that aspect not on some silly sexist criticism of Khir Toyo's heritage. Examples can be provided but need to be done with care and we should avoid focusing on one invidual. 
There may also be valid criticism of the implications of article 160 but these should be primarily covered in article 160 not here (and also source properly). Better criticism would on people with two recent immigrant parents or on someone with no Malay heritage being considered a Malay. (I'm not saying criticism based on only one parent is irrelevant, some may feel it's unfair someone who one immigrant Malaysian and one 'from-birth' Malaysian is treated better then someone with two 'from-birth' Malaysians but let's face it, no one would be making such a big fuss about Khir Toyo if his mother were the Indonesian immigrant.) However just to re-iterate, such criticism should be restricted to the article 160 article anyway
Nil Einne (talk) 17:10, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed Khir Toyo 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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