Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling/Archive 19

message: So, it seems like everybody's had their shout on whether non-kayfabe stuff should be inserted into articles (by the way I've started a new section, as no one will probably look at the argument again!!). The result is 4 (For Non-Kayfabe) : 0 (Against Non-Kayfabe) : 6 (Neutral). Right, so no one disagrees, therefore, can we start inserting non-kayfabe things into articles. Also, I was thinking of starting up a type of guideline page on this, maybe under this heading. Should we start inserting some things into articles. I really think we should. Davnel03 12:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-Kayfabe (Again) 

message: I have nominated John Cena as a good article after adding at least 60 more citations to it. It took me forever and a day, but honestly, I believe it should be the new standard for us as far as citing our articles, and also so the BLP police will leave us alone. Bmg916SpeakSign 16:12, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If we can use OwW as a cite (last I checked it was still blacklisted) then there's no reason that anything that's happened since the 90s can be cited from there. If they stand I'll personally start updating articles. Awesome work, man.«»bd(talk stalk) 18:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. OWW stands, as I used it heavily in John Cena's page, and it's back being used in others, and it let me save, so it's off the blacklist, but gerweck.net is on it and we should that off. Bmg916SpeakSign 18:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also used OWW several times on Shelton Benjamin's page. It's great since they have detailed results of RAW and SmackDown (although their results for early years like 1993 are bare-bones). There is a similar site called DDT Digest for WCW, for 1998-2001 they have reports for EVERY WCW show (even the little 1 hour weekend shows like WCW Pro). TJ Spyke 21:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I've just put the OWW link for 100 REFERENCES on Shawn Michaels article if you want to take a look. Could I consider it for possible GA-candidate? Davnel03 19:46, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[John Cena]]

message: Hi there. I placed a "Speedy" delete template on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWF_European_Rampage but it was contested. I am not sure if the topic deserves an article and it's pretty badly written, although I'm leaning towards maybe that it should be there for a little while longer because it was just created today. But anyway wanted to make users aware. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.138.41.54 (talk) 18:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like a NN show, so I agree with it's deletion. TJ Spyke 21:00, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Should this page exist?

message: I think the outcome is obvious, but somebody has nominate Tuesday in Texas for deletion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tuesday in Texas. TJ Spyke 23:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tuesday in Texas 

message: For some retarted reason, the official website of TNA Wrestling (tnawrestling.com) has been blacklisted. Am I the only one that realizes how f*cked up it is to have the website of the second largest wrestling organization in North America blacklisted? That means we can't use their site for any article. TJ Spyke 03:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And they wonder why wrestling articles don't have any on-line sources.Nenog 03:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there anywhere we can publicly appeal this? ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹SpeakSign 03:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here: []. TJ Spyke 03:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I always wondered where the Lords of Destiny (admins) discussed stuff like that. Looks like the right result. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹SpeakSign 04:03, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: OK, it's been whitelisted on the English Wikipedia (meaning we can use it here, but it's still blocked on the other WP's like the French Wikipedia/Spanish Wikipedia/etc.) TJ Spyke 04:07, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I couldn't help but notice that the ObsessedWithWrestling website is blacklisted too. Davnel03 08:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text:  Well I posted my comment there, I feel as if the whole WP:Wrestling project is being attack at times!! Govvy 14:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Blame User:JB196 and his various sockpuppets spamming them to hell and back on unrelated articles.. We're trying real hard to get rid of him, though. SirFozzie 19:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Just to clarify my side note, we have now received over 70 socks. Some are still acive as of 30 minutes ago. See Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/JB196. All this for whitelisting tnawrestling :) —— Eagle101 Need help? 04:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  TNA blacklisted 

message: This article, for lack of a better term, sucks. It either needs to be AfD or get a complete overhaul. Thoughts? Bmg916SpeakSign 15:13, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: AfD should never be used for an article that simply sucks, however it does indeed need an overhaul. –– Lid(Talk) 15:46, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Combat Zone Wrestling]]

message: As discussed a little bit above, someone keeps deleting information on the career of Bryan Danielson. I have added it back. Just because there aren't any sources doesn't mean it never happened. See: Wikipedia:Ignore all rules Kris Classic 01:23, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ... and you have been blocked as a result.  Please make an effort to cite reliable sources next time rather than violate WP:LIVING and similar core policies.  RFerreira 06:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  How was he violating WP:LIVING? An admin blanked basically the entire article, something which they should get warned against. I bet I would get blocked if I went to, for example, Snoop Dogg's article and removed every little detail that wasn't sourced. Blanking all these wrestling articles are hurting Wikipedia and its integrity, not helping. TJ Spyke 06:51, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The only thing hurting the integrity of the project are the thousands upon thousands of unverified biographies about living people, and the abusive editors who are intentionally restoring such information after it has been identified and removed.  Then again, this has already been explained to you about a dozen times in a dozen different discussion pages, so I'm not sure why I even bother responding here.  RFerreira 07:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Indeed, the lack of verification, and the widespread attitude of apathy towards this problem caused Jimbo Wales himself to blank Ron Jeremy's article. If information isn't sourced, then it is subject to removal. If we had enough people, and the articles didn't have any other problems such as the overwhelming mass stupidity regarding fair use images, then I would suggest having people sign up for a project drive. This drive would have users be assigned articles for them to delere all unsourced info from, and put it on a user subpage. They would then source everything that they could, and what they couldn’t source would go to the abyss. Peace, -- The Hybrid 07:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The verify tag is often used as an excuse to leave the article unsourced. If it has the tag on it, then theoretically the reader knows that they are reading information that we pulled out of our asses, so no one feels the need to source the article. AfDs are nothing to worry about. If someone copies the unsourced page, and comes along during the AfD, then I'm sure that the consensus would be to keep it and let it be improved. If not, then we can always do a deletion review, or just recreate the article by copying the subpage. Peace, -- The Hybrid 08:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Generally speaking, articles that hold any potential tend to improve while they are being discussed on AfD, not that I endorse such trial by fire methods.  Bryan Danielson is somewhat of a borderline case though, and any wrestlers who aren't as well known as him might not warrant an article on Wikipedia just yet.  RFerreira 08:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:PW has expanded beyond what it can handle. As it expands those in it are unable to handle the hundreds of articles it encompasses. Hundreds of these articles violate the fair use policies, most of them list only one source, aren't written from the NPOV, and are filled with grammar errors. This project could use a major trim, so a mass trial by fire may be needed. If we can send many of the articles to hell, then the ones that are left would probably improve drastically. Peace, -- The Hybrid 08:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose we could tighten the rules on bio articles and who is considered notable. There are a lot of indy wrestlers who are not notable and could probably go. TJ Spyke 08:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text: This switched to a general discussion. I haven't looked at this particular article, and IAR may very well apply to this case, but the general application of this rule by WP:PW is far too liberal, and is damaging the project's credibility in addition to the articles it is charged with maintaining. -- The Hybrid 07:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ignoring all rules

message: Why does it need to be separate from this project? Why can't this project govern both sets of articles? It seems to be on the brink of inactivity, only getting a comment every five days or so at the max, and those comments generally not getting a response. It doesn't even have a talk archive yet. It seems like it could easily be absorbed into this project. Peace, -- The Hybrid 06:26, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been mentioned: #Wikiproject Media of Wrestling. TJ Spyke 06:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:MOW]] 

message: Hi, this poster was released yesterday by WWE to the media. I've uploaded it to Wikipedia - however I'm wary about putting it in the article, again because somebody is bound to take it straight out. I've tried to source it, but people may not consider them good sources. Shall I insert it into the article, or wait until it officialy released or what? Infact, surely it already has been released?! Davnel03 11:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One issue could be that the websites in question do not state from whence they obtained the poster. Wrestlemag (one of the sources) has jumped the gun on things a few times. It certainly looks legitimate though. Anyone else? ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹SpeakSign 14:01, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the beauty of wikipedia. If someone says it's not official, even though it clearly is, then you can't include it. Mshake3 17:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's already been uploaded before (:Image:Onenightstand3.jpg) and sourced from WWE.com, so it is official. It was pretty much the reason why I moved the article from ECW to WWE last night. -- Oakster  Talk  17:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WWE One Night Stand|WWE One Night Stand 2007]] 

message: Is their any major guidlines for wrestler article names, for instance, some articles use their real life names, but some articles have their wrestler name e.g.
*Carly Colón = Real Name
*Shawn Michaels = Wrestler Name
Isn't their any Wikipedia guidlines on this, and if so, doesn't it violate anything? I mean, I believe we should have their real name as the article name for one simple reason, and that is is that wrestlers can, from time to time, change gimmicks and therefore names, but you can't change your name in real life (or it's highly unlikely). Davnel03 14:04, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's going by a subject's best known name really. Michael Hickenbottom's notability has come about under the name Shawn Michaels. Mick Foley on the other hand has used several professional names and is best known by his real name. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹SpeakSign 14:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's at WP:NAME "Generally, article naming should prefer to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹SpeakSign 14:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text: What about authors, like George Eliot, or musicians, like Eminem?  I think pen-names and stage names are the same as ring-names in this situation.  We must collectively judge, on a case-by-case basis, whether a particular wrestler is better known to the casual reader by their birth name or ring-name.  I would argue that it's usually their ring name.  Millions of people know the names Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, and the Rock, but only a small percentage of those millions know the birth names of those people. - Geoffg 00:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Govvy, the standard is to use what they are most well known as, see WP:COMMONNAME. Terry Bollea is far better known as Hulk Hogan, for example. TJ Spyke 00:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Here is a list of people who's articles are under their stage names, not real names. Nenog 00:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article name 

message: Now this page is being vandalized too. Just wanted to bring this to your attention. I suggest adding this to your watchlists also.-- bulletproof 3:16 17:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WrestleMania 25]]

message: Could I politely draw attention to Wikipedia:Barnstar and_award proposals/New Proposals#WikiProject Professional Wrestling_Barnstar for comments/votes. Thanks. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹SpeakSign 18:36, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:PW Barnstar

message: It's for the rankings WWE.com does for the wrestlers. I really don't think this needs an article. Also there is Wwe power 25 which seems to be an exact copy of the article. RobJ1981 19:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just redirect them. That's what happened with Power 25. TJ Spyke 22:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done-- bulletproof 3:16 22:32, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've requested SD for Wwe power 25, that one REALLY doesn't need to exist. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹SpeakSign 22:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WWE Power 25]]

message: I refer you to what I stated above. TNA blacklisted :) —— Eagle101 Need help? 00:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blacklists 

message: I've decided after talk about getting rid of WP:MOW from this talk page (and it's been asked since last November), to merge the two WikiProjects together. All members from WP:MOW has been added to our list and all project banners have been changed. If you want to access the old subpages for that project, you can find links to them on this project's main page. The only part of MOW that remains is the infobox which now refers to the project in the past tense.
While I'm at it, I've noticed that Wikiproject TNA exists with barely any activity. Do you want to get rid of this one too? -- Oakster  Talk  15:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP:MOW now absorbed into WP:PW 

message: Just to let you know that the categories for wrestling families is up for deletion. The nomination does mention though for large families, an article might be useful instead (for example, we already have Hart wrestling family and Anoa'i family, while one for the Guerreros could be done). -- Oakster  Talk  22:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrestling families categories 

message: I just finished up Shelton Benjamin and wanted to say thanks to everyone who is helping step-up in one way or another to help make the drastic improvements WP:PW needs. I realize there are only so many of us compared to hundreds of articles, but thank you to everyone, we're off to an amazing start. Bmg916SpeakSign 13:37, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Add Shawn Michaels, John Cena, Mickie James, Randy Orton and Triple H (partially for HHH and Orton) to that list. WCW has also been sourced heavily too. By the way, Bmg916SpeakSign, have you nominated Benjamin's article for GA status? Davnel03 16:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, feel free though if you want. I've actually kind of been turned off by the GA process as almost no one seems to review the articles and they take forever to pass or fail. Bmg916SpeakSign 18:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Every result in the article needs a citation, as every result needs to be verifiable to be in accordance with Wikipedia's policies on biographies for living persons and OwW is more reliable than tv.com as anyone can edit tv.com Bmg916SpeakSign 20:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. TV.com is a good website, but a lot of their stuff is sent in by users and the staff their can't check every possible thing (especially when it comes to things like wrestling). TJ Spyke 20:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Better to oversource than undersource.«»bd(talk stalk) 20:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I think you must be mistaken. I just edited a page with a OWW link, and I didn't get the blocked message I did when it was blacklisted before. TJ Spyke 21:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's working now, so either you're right or they've been going back and forth with it. Mshake3 23:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sourcing

message: With the announcement that all post-WrestleMania 24 events will be joint-branded, is it necessary to list RAW, SmackDown!, and ECW in the infoboxes for subsequent pay-per-views? This is a pretty minor point, for sure, but it seems like it would make more sense to just exclude the brand section from future pay-per-views. Jeff Silvers 02:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as there are seperate brands, yes. Technically WWE is doing the same thing, and it's a quick and easy way for all users to know the brands involved since most of the PPV's have existed since before the brand split and then went to one brand. TJ Spyke 07:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: There are only three matches confirmed for Backlash: two are RAW and one is cross-brand for the ECW World Title. It's a little early to start saying that Backlash will be a "predominately RAW" event. Jeff Silvers 11:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WWE have officially announced that all PPV's are now all inter-promotional, like WrestleMania, Govvy, how can you say that? Davnel03 12:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: And we haven't had Smackdown this week, what if they announce three SD matches on Friday. The announcement was the end of the brand split on PPV, and so all PPV from now on need all three infoboxes. You are misinformed Govvy. Darrenhusted 13:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: To me, it doesn't really matter whether the card features mostly matches from one brand or another; as long as WWE promotes it as a joint-production, it is so.  It just seems redundant to me to list all three brands when, according to WWE, all future events will feature all three brands.  If there's confusion, maybe it could be noted in the 2007 section of each article (2008 for New Year's Revolution and No Way Out) that it's the first time these events have been promoted as being joint-produced. Oh, and to address your last question, Jeff Hardy appeared on SmackDown! last week to face Mr. Kennedy--whether this was a one-off thing to take advantage of the Money in the Bank Ladder Match they had at WrestleMania the Sunday prior isn't clear. Jeff Silvers 12:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Listing all three brands for WWE events 

message: Just to let you know, that an edit-war has literally gotten out of hand, and an admin has fully protected the page. I hate to say who it is involved, but RobJ1981 and TJ Spyke are the two involved. Davnel03 10:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue is this, Rob doesn't want the WWE legends segment mentioned while everyone else is either neutral or thinks it should be mentioned. Rob doesn't want to admit that the consenus is against him though. TJ Spyke 21:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WrestleMania 23]] 

message: This is a term that is used alot by the IWC, esspecially this year. I think an article could be made of this because this happens in WWE almost every week with wrestlers like John Cena and Bobby Lashley.
Im pretty sure you will know what this means so i dont need to go into alot of detail now, but if your not sure about this being an article i wouldnt mind creating it so other people can decided if it should be deleted or just re-worded. Don.-.J 20:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any article on this would be deleted under WP:NEO, however it could go under Professional wrestling slang. –– Lid(Talk) 20:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a neologim. It's just a (fairly common) phrase. Nothing particularly special, or wrestling-specific, about it. It'd go on Wiktionary, if anywhere. — Gwalla | Talk 23:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Its like the word Enforcer, thats a word thats not just used in pro wrestling. But its still got its own article and i think this could do with one too, theres also alot of examples that can be used. Don.-.J 11:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overcoming the odds 

message: A user has taken to removing all kinds of things from wrestling articles under the flag of WP:A. Technically he's correct in removing some of the stuff, but most of what he's removing is easily sourecable should someone actually try. I was going to personally put some of the stuff back, but after checking out how many he did the task suddenly became way too much. Just wanted to let people know before some information gets lost in the ether because when someone does hit an article to cite it up they skip over something not knowing it's missing.«»bd(talk stalk) 22:10, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you can use Vandal Proof to do mass reverts of an editor. TJ Spyke 23:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just tried. Something has happened which is preventing me from rolling back all of his edits :^( -- The Hybrid 23:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Again, please do not perform mass reverts when there is an agreement among editors that unsourced content from wrestler's articles must be removed. I have no problem bringing such action to the attention of administrators if it is done.    Kevin Green342243 23:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just said that it was impossible, and you are the one in the wrong here. We are working on sourcing the material, and you are getting in the way of what this project is trying to do. -- The Hybrid 23:25, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: People are getting to it if you would leave it alone. Recently many editors have been going through and sourcing these articles, such as John Cena's. Just give the project time. That kind of problem is what this project exists to fix. -- The Hybrid 23:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree sourcing needs to happen. But the issue is: it's a ton of wrestler articles. For the most part (in my opinion at least), the most popular wrestlers get attention but little known wrestlers/less popular wrestlers don't get enough attention when it comes to editing. RobJ1981 23:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If I may jump in, the BLP policy mainly says to immediately revert any unsourced negative material due to libel concerns.  If what you see are negative or wording that amounts to personal attack you are completely free to remove it.  However, if it is not then it would be better to put a "citation needed" tag and someone can come up with the proper source.  You can also use the respective articles discussion pages to explain why something should be taken out if you feel strongly about it.  MrMurph101 23:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Hey folks, if you add anything back, please make sure you have it cited. :) Removal is the correct thing to do if the information is potentially controversial on a biography of a living person. Cheers! —— Eagle101 Need help? 00:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of the stuff being removed is not controversial though. While I agree that something like "this person was suspended for drug use" can be removed if not sourced, BLP doesn't say every possible thing that isn't sourced should be removed. TJ Spyke 00:48, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, but you guys are a wikipedia 1.0 project right? If I were you I would work on sourcing what you have, and make it standard practice in your project to do citations. As I read above it looks like this project's scope is larger then the number of members that you guys have. If I were you I would work on doing some recruiting, and getting this project on the road to writing some good well sourced articles. You don't have to source anything that is "common knowledge", but everything else you ought to cite. Without citations how do I know whats in those articles is true? —— Eagle101 Need help? 01:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I've finished referencing a few articles, notably Mickie James, Shawn Michaels and Randy Orton. I've also noticed Shelton Benjamin has been references quite a bit. If you see an wrestler article unreferenced, put a few references in. Davnel03 14:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Blocked as JB196 sockpuppet, revert all edits as required, ideally making sure no unsourced negative information is re-added. One Night In Hackney303 15:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Happy days in the Big Brother house! ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 16:04, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mass blanking 

message: As ONIH said above, User:Kevin Green342243 (individual that was blanking everything) was blocked as a sockpuppet of User:JB196 aka Jonathan Barber. It might be worth keeping an eye on someone who registers a new account and immediately goes on a delete spree using a degree of policy quoting unlikely for a brand new user. I'm not suggesting biting newcomers or assuming bad faith, just keeping an eye open and bearing  history (Wikipedia:Long term abuse/JB196) in mind. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 18:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mass blanking by sockpuppet

message: Shawn Michaels Wrestling facts section is messed up, somebody should fix it. Kris Classic 02:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixes it, somebody opened a <ref> tag and didn't close it. TJ Spyke 03:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Shawn Michaels

message: I don't know if anyone in this WikiProject has edited this article, but it seemed like it was proper to place this notice here since the article is at least tangentially related to this WP....
An editor has nominated Amy Crawford (Nitro Girl), an article on which you have worked or that you created, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "What Wikipedia is not"). Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at  and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate. Thank you. --After Midnight 0001 18:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No worries. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 21:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: She seems to have done pretty much diddly apart from dance, refuse to wrestle and train cheerleaders. A merger to Nitro Girls has been suggested on the AFD however. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 21:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: AfD nomination of [[Amy Crawford (Nitro Girl)]]

message: It's in the "to do" box, but is this something we really want to do? «»bd(talk stalk) 19:35, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging Pin & Pinfall (professional wrestling) 

message: When putting together the history portion of the article, if the events are in order, you don't have to mention the year (and link it) every time a date is mentioned. For example:
On January 1st, 2007, John Cena lost to Kevin Federline due to interference from Umaga. On January 7th, 2007, Cena defeated Umaga to retain the WWE Championship. On January 8th, 2007 (etc)
I believe this is a result of "weekly play by play" that we're trying to avoid, but it's just one thing we need to avoid and watch out for. Mshake3 22:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Common sense with dates 

message: Someone keeps removing the profile for Barry Buchanan. Can anybody post sources so people will stop doing this? Kris Classic 00:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's admin-locked until May by the looks of things ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 00:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes but if anyone can add information to the Talk page, with sources, it will be added in.--ProtoWolf 00:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Barry Buchanan

message: Just a thought: Where are we getting the length of matches for the PPVs? It seems like something that needs to be sourced as you can't get it from simply watching without conducting some original research. Mshake3 00:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ~95% of the times I get from , there are only some they don't have (like WM I). TJ Spyke 00:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. Then we need to start adding them to the article. Mshake3 00:47, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Match lengths 

message: Is this article worth keeping? She was a Nitro Girl for a bit, and is currently a country singer (according to the article at least). Is she actually a notable singer worth mentioning here? Some of the other Nitro Girl articles probably should be gone through. Being a dancer for WCW doesn't assert a lot of notability, if that's all they did. Obviously there is exceptions: like Kimberly Page and so on. RobJ1981 01:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Tayo Reed]]

message: I've noticed over the past several days of several new editors removing "unsourced" text from wrestling-related biographies under similar reasoning by User:Burntsauce and User:Kevin Green342243. These editors in particular User:Mack Genius (see ), User:Tiger White (see  ), User:Beeseech (see  ), User:OwnershipTrachea (see  ), User:FozzyEnemy (see ), User:XWC Rasslin (see ), User:HojoElite (see ), User:Wikido23 (see ), 
User:Last Go Home Pop (see ), User:PiratesFanExtreme (see ),  User:Hawk Lover (see ), User:Stellar Accounting (see ) and  User:Mattiasfool (see ), have all made similar edits between April 11-12 shortly after creating their accounts. Should any of these editors be notified of using the  or  templates as an alternative to removing whole content from articles ? From what I've seen, the majority of the unsourced information could easily be verified with a basic search. MadMax 02:47, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think so, especially since BLP only really says to remove stuff that could be considered libel (like Scott Steiner being arrested after assaulting someone backstage at a WCW event). TJ Spyke 02:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: User:FozzieEnemy sticks out a lot, as it matches the named JB196 uses to harrass User:SirFozzie. I think we have a sock farm. –– Lid(Talk) 03:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup, its him. So he's back for more, eh?-- bulletproof 3:16 03:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Geez, that guy already has over 70 banned sockpuppet accounts. What kind of a loser does something like that? TJ Spyke 03:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: He has a RfCU pending, hopefully sooner or later we can shut the farm down. If you see any more of those with similar outputs, let me know. I'll also check in here when I can. You could revert the changes under WP:RBI (please make sure not to trip the 3RR electric fence, send a ping my way or over at WP:ANI if you get close to it) SirFozzie 04:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Damn! they just keep on coming!-- bulletproof 3:16 04:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One thing I noticed was as Kevin Green, he claimed he was the biggest Mikey Whipwreck fan ever.  I'm going to monitor changes there for a while. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 04:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Got them. If you see some more and just want to add them on your own, here's the checkuser request SirFozzie 04:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, well, well! Jonathan Barber seems to be a little...cross! 3 vandalisms of WP:PW, including trying to blank out his sockpuppets and inserting a picture of a penis (why he has that on his computer, I don't want to know!) ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 04:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Got the latest ones, MadMax. Thanks. SirFozzie 05:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Barber is pretty crazy. He amounted a defence of sorts on the SoCal forums. McPhail 10:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: As mentioned about Barry Buchanan has been fully-protected till May. Burntsauce seemed to be in an edit war on this page, therefore it's been protected. His edits are  pretty interesting, espcially on April 10th. Davnel03 11:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Man, this is seriously getting out of hand fast, is Burntsauce blocked or something to stop him doing this? I'm gonna leave a note on his talkpage.
(The note a user has left him is pretty interesting: In case you were not aware, just wanted to give you a heads up that someone keeps readding the info that you removed from the article despite the information violating WP:BLP, so you may want to revert it or something. PS Same goes for Nick Busick. I think you're doing a great job of violating WP:BLP so I wanted to let you know this.    Bristine 01:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Add User:Nailzfan to the list. -- Oakster  Talk  12:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: What a f***in t****ead! Anywayz, Burntsauce isn't just going after our articles... . However, what gets me is why he keeps going after wrestling articles most of the time. By pressing the random button, I got 7 out of 10 articles entirely unsourced! Here's one of them... Davnel03 15:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah, and when I try and speak to him, he leaves me this: You will find that this has been long discussed on the administrative noticeboard.  Please refrain from personal attacks in the future or you will be blocked.  Burntsauce 15:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's because JB's latest set is being fed to the grinder and blocked, the tag used tags them as SSP. SirFozzie 17:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Uuummm, also when I ask Burntsauce to say something over here he gives this response: I have no interest in joining a WikiProject which actively engages in personal attacks and blatant violations of core Wikipedia policies. Thanks but no thanks. Burntsauce 18:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I've retagged Burntsauce as a Suspected Sock Puppet (I'm sure he'll remove it again), but the fact one of JB's socks went and tried to report some of the WP:PW folks for being meanies to Burntsauce, plus JB's bragging elsewhere makes me believe that he is a JB Puppet. SirFozzie 18:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Burntsauce has been unblocked by Durova. PLEASE, do not add the tag to his page for now. There's some things I don't really want to get into at the nonce, but there's at least a chance that it's not a JBSock after all. If you feel like you are getting into an edit war against him, send me a ping (I'll monitor when I can), and I'll see what I can do. SirFozzie 03:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Carried on down bottom. Davnel03 11:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Blanking of unsourced material

message: Does anybody else think This is TNA should be deleted? Kris Classic 04:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Joey Nelson as well. Kris Classic 04:11, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: IMO, "This is TNA" should either be deleted or redirected to TNA iMPACT! (or Total Nonstop Action Wrestling). It was basically just a 2 hour clip show to promote TNA since RAW wasn't on that night. Joey Nelson looks to be non-notable, so PROD the article. TJ Spyke 05:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is TNA deserves a line in the main article, no more. Davnel03 11:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with Davne103 as the show had PPV matches on it. It could go under TNA iMPACT! in the main article. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 11:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: This is TNA

message: Well with the recent “Extreme focus” on sourcing in wrestling articles I done quite a bit of work to provide sources for articles I have worked on myself. I’ve not focused on the mainstream wrestlers that tend to get most of the focus, I figured there are plenty of people who work on them.
This is the list of articles I have sourced & referenced recently: The Killer Bees, "Beautiful" Bobby Eaton, Koko B. Ware, Owen Hart, Fishman, Jim Powers, Ray "Hercules" Fernandez, Paul Roma, B. Brian Blair, Scott Norton, Butch Reed, Akio Sato, Samu,  Fatu / Rikishi, Gary Albright, The Orient Express, Badd Company, The Young Stallions, Pretty Wonderful, Doom, Power and Glory and The Headshrinkers.
I wonder if there is a way to match the list of articles under WP:PW against articles tagged as unsourced, maybe even sorted by age so that we could start to tackle the articles who have been tagged the longest first?? Perhaps this project should get together a sort of "Task force" to deal with the oldest of these articles?? MPJ-DK 09:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I was thinking of adding a new field (let's call it "sourced") to Template:Pro-wrestling which will by default add the article talk page to a category (let's say :Category:Unsourced professional wrestling articles). Once it's fully sourced, the editor can put "true" in that field which removes the talk page from the category. It's not exactly what you're looking for, but it can help. -- Oakster  Talk  13:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well if nothing else it's a place to start - it'll probably be quite a list (and bait for a certain JB and others who target wrestling articles when there are tons of more mainstream articles who are as poorly sourced) but we've got to start somewhere after all. MPJ-DK 13:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourcing Taskforce?? 

message: The WM23 talk page has expanded to mammoth proportions due to a discussion about the attendance. The debate rages over whether a figure quoted by Wrestling Observer, which is lower than the WWE figure, should be used. WWE is a publicly traded company and will in about eleven weeks time release its financial data for WM, and even though they exaggerate weight/height figure, and maybe even some attendance figure (WMIII being the most well known), they are the only real reliable source for numbers on this type of thing. Whereas Metzler runs his own website which does not cite sources and on some occasions is proven to be completely wrong. So, is Metzler a source? Discuss. Darrenhusted 11:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Saying that a debate rages is an exaggeration. There is one user who refuses to stop mouthing off about how the WWE exaggerated its figures while praising Meltzer and his hidden sources. I don't see any real dispute here. If I didn't know better I would call this entire incident a straw man argument. -- The Hybrid 01:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Metzler!!! 

message: Needless to say, looks like my break will be a short one :) SirFozzie 03:23, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: See Section above for latest JB situation

message: The article is very redundent as the matches for many of the shows are listed twice, in that article and in the general PPV article (Backlash 1999 for example). What's the best way to handle it? I say remove them from the Backlash and Unforgiven matches and keep them on the In Your House page. Mshake3 22:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They are technically both though. Backlash 1999 is both a Backlash PPV and a In Your House PPV. I think they should stay on both, the only issue is which one should be linked to in the "PPV Chronology" section. Maybe pages like "WWF St. Valentine's Day Massacre" should be redirected to their IYH section. TJ Spyke 23:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well duh, because that's the only time a PPV event was called that. But listing two sets of full match results for the same show is horribly redundent. Mention on both articles, but one set of matches have to go. Mshake3 16:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[In Your House]] 

message: There's an edit war going on between Maestro25 and TJ Spyke over what to call a Fatal Four Way Match ("Fatal Four Way" vs "Fatal Four-Way"). Just FYI - I'm still new around here so I'm not quite sure what the next step is. Edwardtang 22:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have self reverted back to his version (even though I know my version is right) so I don't violate 3RR. "Fatal Four-Way" is more grammatically correct and even WWE uses both versions (see the No Mercy talk page for a link). It is also consistency since we have always used the dash in PPV pages here. TJ Spyke 23:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure at all if the project has set up standards for match naming yet, but I would suggest that consensus be reached so that we don't have to deal with this again. BTW - I've noticed you two have been edit warring each other on other wrestling pages (like your very recent change to Professional_wrestling_match_types, which suggests to me that we don't have a standard yet.Edwardtang 23:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There was a consensus, he just seems to want to be opposing the consensus without discussing it. TJ Spyke 23:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you point out when/where consensus was reached? Edwardtang 23:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not so much of a discussion, more that this has just been the standard used here at WP for as long as I can remember (it's been this way since before I registered, which was in March 2006). No one having a problem with it until now a de facto consensus. TJ Spyke 23:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: That's what I thought as well. As far as I remember, "Fatal Four Way" is used far more often than "Fatal Four-Way," and just because both were used by WWE or proper grammar doesn't strike me as a good reason to change everything around. But I'd like to hear from other members of the project who are reading this. Edwardtang 23:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: This is what I said over there: the official results are "Fatal Four Way" for NM 2005 & 2006, see here and here, not to mention other PPV results like here, here, and here. WWE clearly refers to it as "Fatal Four Way" in its results so it should be kept that way. There shouldn't be a problem --Maestro25 23:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: That was mostly capitalization in an article name. --Maestro25 00:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right. This is partially about grammer (in which case, "Fatal Four-Way" is correct). WWE uses both , and independent sources vary but mostly use the dash . Since neither one is used exclusively by any source, I see no reason to change what has been the de facto standard used here. TJ Spyke 00:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are we really fighting over this type of bullshit? Seriously? You know, when they'res bigger issues at hand? this sort of fucking crap really matters that much to get into an edit war over? Bmg916SpeakSign 00:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I personally don't care all that much, but TJ Spyke and Maestro25 need to stop the edit warring. Edwardtang 17:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Fatal Four Way" edit war over at [[WWE No Mercy]]

message: I was wondering if anybody knew of any of the early histort of East Coast Wrestling Association? Kris Classic 00:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ECWA Early History?

message: Before he retired, this user uploaded tons of what we thought were free use images for use in articles, saying that he took them. It has recently been discovered, by Yamla, that he committed massive copyright violations and other such crimes. I suggest that we remove any images that he uploaded from our articles until we can personally verify the copyright status of them. This is a major blow to our image repository, but I guess that this is simply the nature of human society. Peace, -- The Hybrid 01:44, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've marked all my Commons uploads of his photos up for deletion if anyone's concerned over them. This is quite a bummer for me. -- Oakster  Talk  11:12, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Mikedk9109]] 

message: I recently removed a  tag from Andrew Brannan, given his article claims he is a former OVW Heavyweight and Tag Team Champion under contract for WWE, however I've been unable to find any references on either he or his Future Shock tag team partner Culum Davidson. Also OVW's title history makes no mention of his tag team or heavyweight championship title reigns, as Kenny Dykstra has never held the heavyweight title and won only the TV championship from Deuce Shade. This seems to look a lot like a hoax, however is there another ringname he might have wrestled under (assuming he isn't listed by his real name) ? MadMax 05:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A search at OWW shows no one by that name having held the OVW Heavyweight Title  or Tag Title  and a Google search brings up nothing relating to wrestling. Seems like a hoax. Since he removed the PROD, nominate it for deletion. TJ Spyke 05:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Article says he lost the title to Kenny Dykstra, who also never held the title. I vote for hoax.Nenog 05:52, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm nominating it as a Speedy, the article is about himself only. Bmg916SpeakSign 17:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He was trained by Chris Benoit is another hint this article is nothing but a hoax, Chris Benoit doesn't train OVW wrestlers, nor own a wrestling school. Bmg916SpeakSign 17:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Article has been whacked as a hoax. Bmg916SpeakSign 17:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently it was already speedied once before, see the deletion log for the page. Bmg916SpeakSign 17:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Andrew Brannan

message: I see you already have changing "the WWE" to "WWE" on your to-do list. Quite good, since there's no "the" World Wrestling Entertainment.
Similarly, I think any use of "tag team titles" or, even worse, "tag team championships" should be changed to the singular, unless it's a sentence like "the Dudley Boyz were the first team to hold the ECW, WCW, and WWF tag team titles." A sentence like "John Cena and Shawn Michaels lost the tag team titles" is gobbledygook. There is one title in question. What are pluaral are the belts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.7.37.69 (talk • contribs) 
Indeed, I think when people use "tag team titles" they are referring to the belts themselves. It is extremely common for people to do that. Wrestlers, promoters, announcers all do it. It'd be good for grammar to correct the articles. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 17:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  May I suggest 

message: I notice that Ladies Professional Wrestling Association is listed on the "Wanted articles" section of the to do list, however it was deleted by an expired prod on Febuary 2007. Should this article be removed from the wanted articles list or will it be recreated/undeleted at some point ? MadMax 06:52, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I requested it be recreated. LPWA was pretty notable for its time, and they even put out a PPV (LPWA Super Ladies Showdown). I don't know enough about them to create the article myself. TJ Spyke 07:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, I neer looked at the article and didn't know it had been deleted until I had saw a red link at the PPV page. I could ask the closing admin to let me see. 08:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ladies Professional Wrestling Association 

message: I think we should take a second and look at this . Yes, that's right, JB192 (Jonathan Barber) has added something. Burntsauce, well if this doesn't say he's a sockpuppet what does....? People, this is getting seriously out of hand fast, Burntsauce is making malicious claims for no reason (trying to say I'm a sockpuppet). If you want to add anything, go here, oh and here. I think the total of sockpuppets (including rumoured) is nearly at the 200 mark, it's getting out of hand... Davnel03 11:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Burntsauce has been blocked indefinitely. Davnel03 15:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 200? Sheesh. I can't imagine any hypothetical circumstances that would drive a person to create that many false accounts in order to damage a website. He really is peculiar and clearly with far too much time on his hands. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 17:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Same with Verdict, his man crush on Brock Lesnar is starting to worry me. Bmg916SpeakSign 17:45, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Verdict is just in love with Brock's phallic chest tattoo. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 17:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

text: That really sucks. This whole sockpuppet fiasco has revealed (IMHO) that a few admins despise wrestling and will enforce policies beyond the point of being reasonable if it involves wrestling articles and WP:PW members. Check out how relatively few (considering the subject's status) inline citations there are on Henry VIII, John F. Kennedy or Bill Clinton and Tony Blair. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 19:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blanking CONTINUED... 

message: the blank, revert & locking issues of Barry Buchanan has been resolved - how? the easiest, most logical and proper way possible: By sourcing the article in question so that the only edits to it from now on will be expanding the article :-) Happy editing & sourcing ya'll MPJ-DK 18:54, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barry Buchanan Continued 

message: An anonymous user claiming to be Smith Hart's son has recently removed information from Smith Hart's article. I've moved his comments to the article's talk page and placed a  template concerning the information in question. MadMax 20:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've had a little look into Smith Hart's career as a parent and found this Smith had a daughter many years ago that he wasn't taking care of and Badnews Allen was about to adopt her, and in the end, backed out, because as much as he wanted to raise the girl, he felt it would mean a lifetime of Smith Hart being part of his life at Wrestling Observer . I can't imagine why someone would pretend to be Smith Hart's son so I've taken the step of removing Smith's children's from the profile. That is backed up by policy as the only source was a fan essay and they aren't relevant to his career anyway. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 21:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Do we need the article? Govvy 21:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Smith Hart]] 

message: Given the large amounts of professional wrestlers and related topics frequently nominated either by afd or prod tags, perhaps somesort of  message at the head of each article requesting the nominator to notify the PW WikiProject (or at least its author) of its deletion ? MadMax 23:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the PROD template also says that you should notify the article's creater: "Nominator: Please consider notifying the author(s) of this page using  ~~~~". TJ Spyke 01:43, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm guilty of forgetting to do that and I'd reckon a lot of editors are the same ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 01:46, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notification messages 

message: I've run across numerous articles where profiles from ObssessedWithWrestling.com have either been removed or have had the link replaced with a  template. Is the website still blacklisted, and if so, should the latter  entries be removed ? Either way, there seems to be a large amount of revisions needed. MadMax 07:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was blacklisted for a while, I don't think it still is but the articles haven't been updated since that doesn't happen automatically whereas blacklisted links can in some cases be tagged automatically with bots MPJ-DK 08:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He's right, blacklisted links get tagged by the bots. When they get de-blacklisted though, the rest of us have to fix them. OWW is not blacklisted anymore, so feel free to fix any OWW links that were messed up by bots. TJ Spyke 09:15, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Obsessed With Wrestling

message: I seem to remember a user bringing up the idea for a project collaberation a few weeks ago and I was curious if that idea ever when anywhere ? It would seem like a logical idea for some sort of "project of the week" such as providing reliable citations for World Championship Wrestling as User:Suriel1981 brought up awhile ago. Another idea might be taking an averge stub article and rewriting it into at least a B-Class article or even bringing pages like Bret Hart, Ric Flair and others to GA-status ? MadMax 09:57, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good idea. Other Wikiprojects (like WP:VG) also pick a different article each week as one that they want the project to especially work on. TJ Spyke 10:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

text: A prototype template shamelessly ripped off from WP:VG. MadMax 06:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Project collaberation