Talk:List of fictional penguins

message: The listed of Penguins in animated cartoons needs to be alphabetized. Will somebody alphabetize it, please? Thank you. Erudil 16:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely you're joking Mr. Feynman! This is the best article. --Indolences 16:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Misc

message: Moved Topper to his proper place in alphabetical order. It's a very long list, but we must keep it in alphabetical order. Das Baz 18:08, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Topper

message: I think the  tag should be removed.  This article is primarily a list, I'm just not seeing the lack of neutrality.  If nobody objects, I'll remove it the next time I stop by this list. XeroxKleenex (talk) 08:23, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup Tags

message: The mention of the "Florida Giant Penguin" has been removed. It will only be allowed back in if it is properly sourced and footnoted, and placed at the end, not the beginning of the article.  Das Baz, aka Erudil 18:57, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: "[[Florida Giant Penguin]]"

message: Someone reverted my edit, but "Feathers McGraw", the bank-robbing penguin villain in The Wrong Trousers, is at least as "notable" as some of this anime crap. 86.161.31.85 (talk) 08:44, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately it seems that the character Feathers McGraw cannot be wiki-linked. You'll notice that "Feathers McGraw" (or actually "Feathers McGraw") is in fact a redirect to The Wrong Trousers. The lede of that article clearly states that "The Wrong Trousers is a 1993 animated film directed by Nick Park." The lede of this article clearly states "This is a list of fictional penguins." Because films aren't fictional penguins we cannot link that article as an example of a fictional penguin. If you wish to include Feathers McGraw some work must be done first. The following options are available: A) you'll need to create an article on the character Feathers McGraw (which was earlier deleted for lack of sources) or B) you'll have to create a subsection devoted to the character at The Wrong Trousers (or some other related article such as List of characters from The Wrong Trousers) or C) you'll have to provide sources that demonstrate Feathers McGraw's notability outside of his inherited notability via The Wrong Trousers. If you wish to create an article on Feathers McGraw this would perhaps be a good starting point. Please feel free to ask for any help. -Thibbs (talk) 12:23, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for the explanation. I don't really have time to do the above, but maybe somebody will now that there's a note on the talk page. I suppose this isn't one of the more important articles on WP :) 86.161.31.85 (talk) 21:34, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no policy-based agrument that requires expending that time. Presumptions of this sort cannot be erected in the absence of WP policy on the matter. David in DC (talk) 04:00, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Your assumption that there is no policy-based argument is quite incorrect. There are in fact policy- and guideline-supported bases for the presumptions and I have pointed this out below. Also, if you don't mind, let's try to keep our discussion to the subsection created earlier today (below). I find that discussions are often enhanced by centralization and that they become unmanageable when they are spread across several different subsections. -Thibbs (talk) 06:11, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Someone reverted my edit 

message: I've sought counsel at the content noticeboard. David in DC (talk) 01:30, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably a good idea. Thanks for the alert. -Thibbs (talk) 03:38, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notice board 

message: User:David in DC has added the character "Mumble the Penguin" three times to the list and it is quite clear that he is anxious that this character should appear on the list. I am hoping that I can use this addition as an example that can be pointed to for future editors who are having trouble with the notability requirements currently in place at this article. First let me note that I have absolutely no interest in blocking the addition of notable fictional penguins from inclusion on this list. The stated aim of the list is to display "notable penguin characters from the world of fiction." This much is clear from the article's lede. If an entry meets these requirements then it belongs in this list. If it does not meet these requirements then it cannot be included in this list. This is an appropriate restriction according to WP:LIST and WP:LSC, and I would hope this sounds reasonable to editors.
It is important to examine the inclusion of redirects and redlinks to lists in particular as they offer the greatest potential to trip up even experienced editors.
Regarding redirects, we must consider carefully whether or not they advance the stated aims of the article. Does a redirect to an article on a book, film, or song about penguins meet this list's stated inclusion criteria? I believe the issue is easily resolved by looking at the lede of the article that has been redirected to. Is a film with a penguin character a penguin? I would argue that it is not. Of course some redirects are appropriate if they redirect to an article about a fictional penguin, but if the redirect is only created as a "Related word" then it is often the case that the related word is not notable in its own right. Because Notability is not inherited, all entries on this list should be notable separate and apart from the works in which they feature.
Regarding redlinks, we note that in addition to the notability and descriptive criteria located in the lede, WP:LSC imposes an additional requirement that the entry be verifiably a member of the list group. As with redirects, redlinks are acceptable for inclusion in the list if they are verifiable as fictional penguin characters and if they can be shown to be notable in their own right. These requirements follow from the guidelines, WP:LIST and WP:LSC.
Now let us focus on Mumble the Penguin as an example:
1) Is Mumble (Happy Feet) a link to an article about a fictional penguin?
No. This link is a redirect to a film about penguins. Are films about penguins the same thing as penguins? No.
2) Is the alleged fictional penguin character notable separate and apart from the film we are redirecting to currently?
I don't know. If the user who inserted him had included a reliable reference that demonstrated his notability separate and apart from the film then it would be fine but so far we have not seen such a source emerge. Sourcing the notability of an entry means meeting Wikipedia's General notability guideline. In a nutshell a source demonstrating notability must significantly cover the topic sourced, must be reliable, and must be independent of the topic. The burden of proof for notability naturally lies with the editor asserting the character's notability.
3) Can Mumble (Happy Feet) be listed here?
Yes provided that the link points to a notable fictional penguin character or is supported by a reliable source that demonstrates the notability of the alleged fictional penguin character. If the entry is a redlink then it also must be supported by a reliable source that demonstrates that the entry meets the lede's descriptive criteria (i.e. that it is a fictional penguin character) per WP:LSC.
If there are still questions about this set of policies then please discuss them here. -Thibbs (talk) 05:26, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Or perhaps here, which would make the whole conversation between and among co-equal editors. David in DC (talk) 06:01, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Mumble the Penguin

message: Reading through the extensive discussion above left me with a lot of new questions that I didn't come here to ask, so I may pose such questions directly to Thibbs on his talk page. What I came to ask is: Why are Roy and Silo on this page? Yes, they are characters from a book, but a book that was essentially non-fiction. Even if the book has elements that were invented by the author, I don't quite see how that converts real animals or people into fictional ones. When I was in elementary school, I read a book about Benjamin Franklin in which his best friend was a talking mouse. Clearly a fictional story, so does that make Benjamin Franklin a fictional politician? --BBrucker2 (talk) 04:14, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roy and Silo 

message: Why is verification needed for Gunt(h)er? Is it verification of Gunter's notability or verification that this character exists? Because Gunter is clearly listed in the List of Adventure Time characters. As for notability, I'll leave it to you guys to argue about. 158.223.174.28 (talk) 22:47, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gunter/Gunther