Talk:Ethel Hedgeman Lyle

message: I've added some more historic context and additional sources, but mostly restructured this to emphasize her public life and achievements. It may be useful as editors work on other founders of Alpha Kappa Alpha.--Parkwells (talk) 18:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestions

message: "At a time when only 5% of whites attended college, she and fellow founders were even more of an elite, among the one-third of 1% of African Americans who attended any college in the early 1900s. Howard University was considered one of the top two historically black colleges. James D. Anderson, The Education of Blacks in the South, 1860-1935. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1988, 245. The leadership of Hedgeman in establishing and guiding the sorority has continued to generate social capital."
I added this to provide the context for why these women were each achievers and remarkable in their time. It may need expansion - I think it would be useful to have other info in the article about numbers of teachers, or additional data from Ethel Hedgeman Lyle's Philadelphia years, but I think the background on the early 1900s is critical to making sense of their time and would like to have it added back or reverted.--Parkwells (talk) 20:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Background of college attendees among whites and blacks

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Recently a lot of IPs have been changing "Hedgeman" to "Hedgemon" without citing any sources. One of these users claims: "Her name throughout her life and even today was often mispronounced and thought to be Hedgeman, however, research of her birth certificate and marriage license have confirmed the correct spelling of her name as Hedgemon." I have not been able to locate either of the documents mentioned, but I have found sources that spell her name as Hedgemon: the "founders" page on the official AKA website (which is already being cited in the article), and the fall 1967 issue of The SPHINX, page 31. A clear majority of sources use Hedgeman, and thus that should be the primary spelling used, but at what point would it be worth mentioning in the article that it is sometimes spelled Hedgemon? Someone else should try researching this too, it would be nice to find something that would allow us to report on and explain this discrepancy. Alecnotalex (talk) 17:15, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for starting this discussion. Note. On January 4th of this year it was Hedgeman on the AKA website: https://web.archive.org/web/20220104015135/https://aka1908.com/about/founders , by January 15th of this year, it Hedgemon https://web.archive.org/web/20220115171607/http://aka1908.com/about/founders . I'm going to try to reach out to AKA HQ today. I'm not saying their decision should be followed, I'm saying that it probably should be weighted heavily. Regardless of which way it is, there should probably be (ironically), an Also Known As (AKA) for the other name.Naraht (talk) 14:23, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  WP:COMMONNAME seems pretty clear on the issue; there are 12k+ Google hits for "Ethel Hedgeman Lyle" and 172 for "Ethel Hedgemon Lyle", and most of the latter are either generic genealogy websites or AKA (though I find "Hedgeman" also on AKA's sites). Keep as-is, protect if necessary, and (for those IPs who are insistent it has an "o") start an RM if it's that big of a deal. Primefac (talk) 14:43, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Having said that, if Alpha Kappa Alpha nationally has changed the spelling, the question of whether chapter webpages (alumni and UG chapter) should count on the Hedgeman side (I have little doubt they will change to reflect National).Naraht (talk) 16:02, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Reached out to AKA, had a discussion about that. Submitted a request for exactly what sources they used for the change. Note, everything I can find about her publishing by Howard University during her time there is Hedgemon, not Hedgeman, but RL has gotten in the way from making a formal MFD. Honestly, I think AKA national is the ne that screwed up the name 40-50 years ago and now is trying to unscrew it.Naraht (talk) 10:10, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume you mean WP:RM, not MFD, but either way I think an actual discussion is necessary rather than SPAs attempting to ram it through. Primefac (talk) 10:50, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, RM. Naraht (talk) 15:19, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done some minor formatting on your post, but no actual content changes.  Primefac (talk) 15:27, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

text: The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: NOT MOVED. Consensus that there is no clarity from reliable sources on the "correct" name - WP:COMMONNAME and precedent default to no move.(non-admin closure)  Ganesha811 (talk) 20:19, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

text: Ethel Hedgeman Lyle →  – See the above discussion; apparently her sorority has been mis-typing her name for 100 years and is just now trying to retcon everything.  Primefac (talk) 15:29, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

text: The page is listed on the RM page, it will be closed in due time. If you want to formally request a close, WP:ANRFC is the location to do so (though it might take just as long). Primefac (talk) 09:19, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

text: Would people prefer an in-line explanatory note or a footnote? I could go either way. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 20:26, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: A parenthetical (sometimes spelled Hedgemon) would work fine. Primefac (talk) 20:37, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Hedgemon" 

message: Sources for spelling Hedgemon: 
Official change by AKA website
*Before:https://web.archive.org/web/20220104015135/https://aka1908.com/about/founders 
*After: https://web.archive.org/web/20220115171607/http://aka1908.com/about/founders 
Howard University 1906-1909
*HU Journal March 8, 1907 - https://dh.howard.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1022&context=huj_v4
*HU Journal October 9, 1908 - https://dh.howard.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=huj_v6
*HU Journal November 20, 1908 -  https://dh.howard.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&context=huj_v6 (specifically identifying her as president of Alpha Kappa Alpha_
*HU Journal December 17, 1908 - https://dh.howard.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010&context=huj_v7
*1909 Howard University Commencement - https://dh.howard.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1046&context=hugradpro
*HU Journal October 22, 1909 - https://dh.howard.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&context=huj_v7
*Note, Howard University yearbooks have not been digitized prior to 1914. 
National Magazine of Alpha Phi Alpha
*Sphinx - Fall 1967 p 31 https://issuu.com/apa1906network/docs/196705303
TV Story
Using the Hedgemon spelling that AKA National has changed to.
*WBIR TV story - https://www.wbir.com/article/news/education/alpha-kappa-alpha-black-womens-sorority-celebrates-114th-international-founders-day/51-bd59d0f9-f0d5-4d0d-b01b-51f2f826b1f2
Other
*Jaguar Yearbook Southern U yearbook 1965 - http://www.e-yearbook.com/yearbooks/Southern_University_Jaguar_Yearbook/1965/Page_1.html
*Example of chapter now using the new spelling Phi Kappa Omega graduate chapter https://www.akaphikappaomega.org/about-aka/
I tried doing a google trends comparison of "Alpha Kappa Alpha" Hedgemon with "Alpha Kappa Alpha" Hedgeman , but it indicated not enough information. Doing google searches as of this moment on "Alpha Kappa Alpha" "Hedgemon" gives 4,040 hits and "Alpha Kappa Alpha" "Hedgeman" gives 8,880 hits. So, IMO, not an overwhelming ruling on commonname.Naraht (talk) 15:19, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: RM Sources

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: NOT MOVED. Consensus that there is no clarity from reliable sources on the "correct" name - WP:COMMONNAME and precedent default to no move.(non-admin closure)  Ganesha811 (talk) 20:19, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Ethel Hedgeman Lyle →  – See the above discussion; apparently her sorority has been mis-typing her name for 100 years and is just now trying to retcon everything.  Primefac (talk) 15:29, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 4 February 2022 

message: The discussion here seems to have petered out. Do we make the move, relist (not sure where, WP:FRAT?) or something else?Naraht (talk) 09:16, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The page is listed on the RM page, it will be closed in due time. If you want to formally request a close, WP:ANRFC is the location to do so (though it might take just as long). Primefac (talk) 09:19, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Next step

message: I've closed the discussion with a consensus to NOT MOVE, but I think it would be reasonable to add a note immediately following her name, explaining the discrepancy in reliable sources. The redirect should stay in place too. I'm not great at referencing/notes or I'd do it myself. Ganesha811 (talk) 20:23, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Would people prefer an in-line explanatory note or a footnote? I could go either way. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 20:26, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: A parenthetical (sometimes spelled Hedgemon) would work fine. Primefac (talk) 20:37, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Add a note?

message: this was looked at extensively, considering all arguments and reading all exant sources. 
Saintstephen000 (talk)
:Indeed, and an RM was started, and the consensus was not to move. So I am really, seriously wondering why you did it. Primefac (talk) 07:42, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Corrected an error/Name Change