Talk:Republic/Archive 1

message: Socrates: "Does Wikipedia's definition of a Republic fit the condition of Sparta which had kings? 
Wikipaedia:  Um-NO.
Socrates: "Does the Wikipedia's definition of a Republic fit the condition of Britian who has a monarchy?
Wikipaedia: Um-NO.
: Well yes it does. Britain is not a Republic, it's a Monarchy by admission. Our  definition of republic is "A nation that does not have a monarch", Britain has a monarch, so it's a monarchy, not a republic. Sounds correct to me. Kim Bruning 19:18, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: And Rightly So! Your founding fathers aren't my founding fathers. :-) Kim Bruning 19:18, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: We have this definition. It is true for ALL situations where a Republic exists. I am unsure if it is true for all situations where a Republic existed Kim Bruning 19:18, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: You can't make that a conclusion. It might also be possible that a word only has meaning inside a certain context of space, time, and maybe also within the context of a single discussion. It happens all the time in formal languages, in any case. Please see: Namespace. Define each year as a new namespace. Now you can have it both ways. The language can evolve, and yet meanings do not change in the same way. Handy philosophical tool that. Kim Bruning 19:18, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Part I A Socratic on current Definition

message: Socrates:  "Hello again"
Wikipaedia: Hello
Socrates:  You said, "The republic is no longer an exclusively Greek thing. I think this happened sometime when Rome conquered Greece. 
Wikipaedia: yes
Socrates:  Was not Rome a Republic also?
Wikipaedia:  Uh Uh Uh Uh
Socrates:  "Did not Cicero also term his government a 'mixed' government?
Wikipaedia: Uh Uh Uh
Socrates:  "What elements made it mixed?"
Wikipaedia:  I don't know.
Socrates: "Was not the Senate of Rome made exclusively of the Aristocracy but the Romans had no kings?"
: But the romans had no aristocracy exactly, they had patricians, which is a term that does not map precicely or accurately onto Aristocracy. Kim Bruning 19:18, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You know you are making me work to hard here.  Patricians are "heads of families of the old tribes." "The patricians thus formed an hereditary aristocracy. Pg 1184, Harpers Dictionary of Classical Literature and antiquities.WHEELER 17:44, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Part II A Socratic 

message: Wikipaedia: words and concepts change through time. The republic is no longer an exclusively Greek thing. 
Socrates:  "Do we not use the Greek word for a monarchy?"
Wikipaedeia:  Yes.
Socrates:  "Does the meaning of the word Monarchy change over time?"
Wikipaedia: No
: Very emphatically *YES*. See constitutional monarchy for a great example. Kim Bruning 19:18, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It sure did. Try find an honest to goodness modern aristocrat sometime. Did you ever meet one? I have. They're somewhat different from what aristocrats were like in the 19th century, and those again were very different from the aristocrats of the middle ages in their clunky armour. Kim Bruning 19:18, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: Why yes it does. In the past, democracy was direct democracy by default. Now it's representative democracy by default. Kim Bruning 19:18, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: well your straw man and you determined that, but I do not agree. Kim Bruning 19:18, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Part III A Socratic

message: Socrates: "Did not the Greeks define systems of Government by the dominant factor?"
Wikipaedia: What do you mean?
Socrates:  What is the dominant factor of a Monarchy?
Wikipaedia:  A King.
Socrates:  What is the dominant factor of an Oligarchy?
Wikipaedia:  A small group of people.
Socrates:  What is the dominant factor of an Aristocracy?
Wikipaedia:  the aristocracy of that nation.
Socrates: What is the dominant factor of a Democracy?
Wikipaedia:  The people
Socrates:  "All the previous systems of government, Monarchy, Oligarchy, Aristocracy, Democracy are all defined by their dominant element--Correct?"
Wikipaedia:  That seems to be the case.
Socrates:  "So what category of Governmental system does Sparta and Crete fall under?"
Wikipaedia: I don't know.
Socrates:  "How do you define what a Democracy?"
Wikipaedia:  It is ruled by the people.
Socrates:  "Is the 'people' a dominant factor?"
Wikipaedia:  yes
Socrates:  "So, we shall use the same procedure to define what style of government Sparta and Crete has.  Shouldn't we?"
Wikipaedia:  No no, that is not right, A Republic is a Greek thing and the meaning has changed.
: That's odd, we should do that for the ancient Sparta and for Crete, they're in the same namespace as the original meaning of the word. I have absolutely no problem with that. Kim Bruning 19:18, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Part IV A Socratic