Talk:Ramon Llull

message: Despite appearances in the image, Llull is not smoking a cigarette.  Tobacco was introduced to Europe from the New World in the 15th century.  The "wisp of smoke" is in fact a long, narrow cartoon word bubble. (anon, March 19, 2005)
The words are legible:  Lux mea est ipse Dominus:  "My light is Lord Himself".
Does anyone know where this image came from?  Mjhrynick 22:01, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not its ultimate origin (at least not offhand), but see http://www.sil.si.edu/digitalcollections/hst/scientific-identity/CF/display_results.cfm?alpha_sort=L on the site of the Smithsonian, then search for "Llull" and click through on the image; you'll see a broader context of the page it was taken from. I suppose if you wanted provenance further up the line you could contact the Smithsonian. - Jmabel | Talk 22:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know where is exposed the original picture: The Pharmazie-Historisches Museum (Museum of Pharmacy), Basel, Switzerland.  https://pharmaziemuseum.unibas.ch/en/index_en.html [ Jacopo Lotti. Florence, Italy. 17 August 2014 ]— Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.235.51.198 (talk) 19:51, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  No smoking 

message: I seem to remember he played a pretty big role in the history of the art of memory. No mention of that in the current article, though. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:09, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wouldn't it be ironic if your recollection were inaccurate? :-) Sorry for the poor joke, but I don't know enough about Llull to know if you're right. Jwrosenzweig 05:53, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, "I seem to remember" was a deliberate choice of words. FWIW, I remember this coming up in passing when I was reading about Giordano Bruno, 30 years ago, so may memory's really not so bad, it's just that that is a long time to remember details of a side-issue. I'm pretty sure this was mentioned in Frances Yates's work on Bruno and the Hermetic tradition. I don't know much about Llull, either, hence the question.-- Jmabel | Talk 06:33, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You'd do better to look up her work on the subject, also her seminal thinking in the essays on Lull and Bruno () published shortly before her death. I must at that point declare myself to be on the edge of OR as a member of the Warburg's Scholastics Group, as I'll have to open the discussion of the publication of Volume 2 some time with them. Post Mortem publications have a fine mediaeval tradition! The problem will probably be financing it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.97.188 (talk) 06:08, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mnemonics 

message: "He had an epiphany..." is incorrect. Contrary to current casual usage, an epiphany is the appearance in the natural world of a being from an unnatural world. Llull became obsessed with ascetic religion after a period of sensual pleasure. What turned him was a glimpse of his girlfriend's cancerous breast. If no one objects, I will add this information to the article.
Lestrade 13:54, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never heard this one, but am curious to know where the information came from (as actual curiosity, not as a challenge). According to his [auto]biography (Contemplative Life), he had several visions. Most, if not all, were of Jesus on the cross, as the user below points out. No mention of a cancerous breast. He was writing to his mistress during the first one, tried to sleep it off, then it happened again later. Started a pretty speedy road to asceticism, abandoning his family, and dedicating his life to the spread of Christianity. Every once in a while he'd get a sign or vision from God to guide him in making a decision... --Rhododendrites (talk) 23:01, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Carl Jung tells this story in the first part of Man and His Symbols.  That may be where Lestrade got it from.  I wonder where Jung got it from.  Mbarbier (talk) 13:10, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Epiphany 

message: I've added his The Book of the Order of Chivarly to the list, but this is a rather influential work. Perhaps expansion on his knighthood and chivalric ideals in this article would be a nice addition. Cariel 14:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Llull and Chivalry

message: The article currently says that Llull returned from his third mission in 1308, but he didn't leave on his second mission until 1314!  Something's not right here. --Reuben 17:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Second mission after third mission?

message: This edit turned 
"Balearic Islands, now part of Spain" into "Balearic Islands, Spain". I have reverted that. There was no state "Spain" at the time. The edit also added "Spanish" to the list of languages in which he wrote. I wouldn't be surprised if Llull was literate in almost any Romance language of his time (insofar as they existed in written form) but I am unaware of him having ever written in any vernacular language we would now consider an ancestor of Spanish. If he did, I'd like to see this elaborated upon. If he didn't, I'd like to see this removed. - Jmabel | Talk 18:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spain? 

message: :This was posted in a newsletter so I thought you guys might find it relevant to possibly add to the article?
The memory system developed by Ramon Lull was known as Lullism. Lull was a 13th Century Majorcan who spent his youth working as a troubadour and courtier. After a spiritual experience whilst on top of Mount Randa, Lull believed he had perceived the attributes of God and he set out to develop a sort of elemental cosmology of nature inspired by this experience. At their
heart, Lull's arts are based on the nine attributes of God: Goodness, greatness, eternity, power, wisdom, will, virtue, truth and glory. Lull claimed that because these concepts were
fundamental to nature, they should form the natural structure for the study of any subject. Such an interest with paying attention to the names or attributes of God may sound strange to the modern mind, but it was similar to the practices of the mystical branches of both Judaism (the Cabala) and Islam (Sufism) that were contemporary with Lull. Lullism became ever more complex with varied diagrams depicting the inter-relationship of these concepts. 
At a practical level, Lull believed in two methods for improving memory. Firstly, medicines, although he does not recommend taking this route. Exactly what medicines he means are now lost to us, as is most of the medieval herbalist tradition. The second method was frequent meditation upon what one wishes to remember. In other words: repetition; a fundamental, if simple, part of building memory. However, tantalisingly there is a lost work by Lull called
'The Book of the Seven Planets' which is said to contain the true method for memory enhancement. Whilst we no longer know exactly what this method consisted of, the emphasis on the number seven seems important. Interestingly, psychologists now know that seven
is a fundamental number to our memory system: it's the maximum number of 'bits' of information the average person can hold at once in their short term memory.
:If not done by the next time I check, I can attempt to incorporate anything this might have to offer, I just want to understand it here and log it here where it's relevant so I can delete the newsletter. Tyciol 20:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not really a lot there. Yes, history records him as one of the two great experts on the art of memory; we don't mention that, and we should. The other was Giordano Bruno; many of Bruno's relevant works survive. I read part of one of them 30 years ago, it was not among Bruno's more inspiring works. - Jmabel | Talk 04:57, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See my notes above  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.97.188 (talk) 06:13, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Lullism by Darren's Lost Arts of the Mind

message: This edit directly contradicts what was there before, now saying that he was not a Franciscan. Does someone have a citation either way? - Jmabel | Talk 05:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Franciscan? 

message: I've seen several sources saying that Llull called himself "Doctor Phantasticus" or "Ramón lo Foll", but the sources seem sparse.  Anyone know more about this? --macrakis (talk) 04:16, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Doctor Phantasticus / Ramón lo Foll

message: I think Dali did a painting on him.  TCO (talk) 02:42, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dali painting 

message: Hopefully in the next week sometime I'll the time to do some serious work to this article. I've been working with Llull a lot recently, so have a pile of refs handy. In the meantime, I'll just point out the most egregious problem with the article as it stands: Llull was not and alchemist. Sometime after his death a large body of alchemical, mystical work was misattributed to him. The problem got so bad that during the late middle ages/renaissance some say there were more fake Llull works ("the pseudo-Llull") than those he did write. This is well documented despite still frequent references to "Llull's alchemy" or "Llull the mystic." He even condemns transmutation. ...Anyway...I'll just leave that there for now :) --— Rhododendrites talk |  03:19, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  alchemy and other concerns 

message: Made several revisions. Can't do anymore now but the article still needs work.
*added a couple CNs
*added a couple sources (more are needed for sure -- I have some I will hopefully add soon, but for now...)
*lots of copyediting, etc.
*moved/tweaked existing content for new sections
*new section structure
**Early life and family
**Conversion
**Nine years of solitude and early work (probably not an ideal name)
**Llull's Art (this section definitely needs a better explanation of his art -- and I hope to add Eco's criticisms thereof)
***Mechanical aspect
**Literature and other works (more should probably go here, but I wasn't sure what from what was presently on the page )
**Missionary work and missionary education
***Later North African missions, Council, and death
**Reputation and reception after death
***Mathematics, statistics, and classification
***Art and architecture
***Modern fiction
***Attitude toward Judaism (as far as I know, Judaism wasn't a major topic in his work, but this section seems like a more appropriate place for what is basically criticism)
**Works
***The Pseudo-Llull (a desperately needed section. I should also say I removed unqualified mentions of Llull and alchemy and a book he didn't actually write from the list of works)
***Notable works (I'm not sure what inclusion criteria we're using here, but I mostly left this list as it was)
--— Rhododendrites talk |  23:01, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  changes 

message: I am replacing "Literature and Works" with an entirely new section summarizing Llull's output. It encompasses everything that is already in the article and will fix some errors.--Dempstere (talk) 20:32, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Overhaul

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It was my understanding there was some connection between Columbus and Lull. I'll be aware of collecting sources when I return. Peace. Jplvnv (talk) 10:44, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influenced Christopher Columbus?