Talk:Italian ice

message: Mid class start, Italian is a classic summertime dessert in many countries.
This article needs attention in the areas of:
* It needs expansion.
* Citations from reliable sources.
* it reads like an advertisement.
--Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 07:28, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WPFood assessment 

message: How is "granite" (one of the names that it's stated this product is known by) pronounced?  I assume it's pronounced according to Italian phonetics, not English (i. e. it's not pronounced like the rock, but I'm not sure so I don't want to edit.  Izzycat 19:07, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've heard it pronounced on Food Network by Giada De Laurentiis (Everyday Italian) as "grah-NEE-ta." --Meg 16:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is right, obviously this is the singular word granita. For the plural word.. just use an "e" like in "edit". --Trifi 12:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: pronunciation

message: In the Philadelphia area, water ice stands usually have lines in the afternoons, as kids get off school, people get back from a day at the pool, or people just get in the mood. I guess some people might eat it after dinner, but I'd really say it's more of a "snack" than a "desert," no? Passdoubt | Talk 17:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well in the same way Ice Cream is a dessert but people often, especially in the summer time, eat Ice Cream on its own. 24.190.34.219 (talk) 22:07, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Dessert?

message: It seems like the person who wrote the opening paragraphs to this article wrote specifically with the method of making it in mind. Descriptions of how italian ice "should" be (presumably in contrast to the variable ways it can end up) are offered up before even establishing what Italian ice exactly is. Perhaps this could be changed by someone who knows better than I do how to best describe it. Abbenm 02:26, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor introduction 

message: I removed an explicit image on the top right of the page.
I agree with what Abbenm said about the into.
RRM MBA 20:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explicit Image Removed 

message: The paragraph on Gelato had been reduced to stating that the word was the Italian for ice cream.  I've replaced it with a link to the Gelato article.  Rojomoke (talk) 12:48, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gelato 

message: I grew up in Philadelphia and have been eating water ice for most of my life. Not one place I've ever been to offered cookie dough water ice. They are usually fruit flavors, chocolate, vanilla, or root beer. Naugahyde (talk) 15:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've had cookie dough and some other exotic flavored italian ices in Brooklyn.24.190.34.219 (talk) 22:02, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cookie dough italian ice? 

message: First paragraph says water ice is just another name for the Italian ice, whereas the 'similar foods' section claims these are two different desserts. --Eleassar my talk 07:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Contradiction

message: I removed the most popular flavors sentence. I can't find the info in the link, and even if i could, Little Jimmies is not an authority on the most sold flavors. They may be the most sold flavors for him, but not the Philadelphia area, or any other area for that matter.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.80.176.22 (talk) 00:10, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Little Jimmies seems to be touting themselves on Wikipedia. I am removing all mention of them as they are a) not notable b) not an authoritative source on flavors/sales and c) not an important detail in the submission of the term (nor is their involvement verifiable). - SummerPhD (talk) 15:53, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The text I removed was restored without comment and this section of the Talk page was removed without comment by an anonymous editor. The IP address links to Bedminster, NJ (just down the road from Elizabeth, NJ...). I have reverted both edits and warned the anonymous editor. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: More socks in favor of Little Jimmies. Sad. Looks like we might need to block edits by unconfirmed editors. - SummerPhD (talk) 01:31, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

text: More socks in favor of Ritas. Reprehensible.. Looks like a Wikipedia editor is on the payroll for Ritas might need to block this editor. - EditorCollusion (User talk:EditorCollusion) 05:31, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: most popular flavors

message: This article is being discussed at Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Italian_ice. - SummerPhD (talk) 18:41, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Administrators' noticeboard

message: I have better things in my life to do than worry about editing a Wikipedia article on something as trivial as Italian ice, so I won't spend too much time going back and forth on this after I make my case.  My edit on 22June2010 (about Italian Ice being referred to as water ice in Philadelphia) was deleted by Chowbok, with this edit summary commentary obviously meant to offend: "Who cares what it's called in Philadelphia?"  First of all, doesn't everyone agree that a little decorum should have been used in the edit summary?  I don't correct others' edits using the language of schoolyard bullies, and I don't expect anyone to do it to me.  
That being said, I now see why my edit was deleted with such an angry remark.  I just took a look at the history page and this talk page.  There are some real disagreements here that I may have been caught in the middle of.  I believe I may have been mistaken for others who have been reprimanded for allegedly trying to promote certain Italian ice businesses, or of indirectly trying to do so by mentioning City of Philadelphia or the term "water ice".  So I'll give my opinion, and try a more acceptable edit.  If it doesn't work again, I'll move on to editing other articles.  
The Italian American parts of Philly, as well as those of New York, and all parts of New Jersey (especially the Shore resorts) have historically been Ground Zero for Italian ice stands.  Half the population of this heavily populated area grew up calling the product "water ice", so I can't possibly imagine the article not mentioning this common alternate name.  However, I do agree not to mention any city or vendor by name.  
As for any perceived differences between Italian ice and water ice, it's negligible to nonexistent.  I've had plenty of John's and Rita's product.  As for Italian ice being firmer than water ice, the difference is two minutes in the summer heat.  I've seen the more watery version, the "scoopable" version, and the hard-as-a-rock grocer's freezer version, all three types marketed as both Italian Ice and/or water ice.  I can use pizza as an example.  The frozen one from the supermarket is different in many ways from the fresh, crispy one from the coal-fired oven at a pizza restaurant, but they are both still called pizza.  
I hope I've made my case to at least get the mention of water ice back in the article, and to have no one else write mean edit summaries lest I write another diatribe like this.  Thanks for listening.  
24.0.195.5 (talk) 09:59, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "Schoolyard bullies"? Geez, you need a little thicker skin. I don't think that was such a mean comment. Leaving the water ice thing in, but it needs a source.—Chowbok ☠ 16:06, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it needs a source since the interchangeability of the two names has been (surprisingly)  challenged earlier in this talk page.  I searched for the phrase "Italian ice or water ice".  The best source I could find (in my limited time) is a reference by the editors of the prestigious Zagat Survey of restaurants.  Many other pages showed the commercially sold product being referred to by both names simultaneously, so I included two of the more legitimate looking ones.  Maybe I'm guilty of overkill (three citations) but I anticipate somebody will delete at least two of them, and possibly find something better.  Italian ice being called water ice is something so ubiquitous that nobody writing for any official food industry publication would feel the need to write about it because in the real world there is no dispute.  The only difference of opinion I find is on wide open chatty web pages.  So there it is, the Zagat Survey, the best I can do.  --24.0.195.5 (talk) 13:19, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The previous "dispute" was backlash from someone who wanted to add their water ice company into the article. After my repeated removal of their spam, they shot back with an accusation that I am in some way affilliated with Rita's, as I had cited a Rita's page for the water ice/Italian ice naming bit. I'm not sure if that other editor is still chacking back, but they might. If they do, there might be some heat about the Zagat's link. While Zagat's is a reliable source (IMO) for something of this nature, they might not like that it's in an article about Rita's. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:17, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, they're back. Now they aren't even bothering with claims of bias and such, just adding their spam. Unfortunately, we might need to semi-protect the article to block the IP vandalism. That would mean editors would need registered accounts several days old with several edits to other articles before they'd be able to edit this article. At the moment, I'm working on longer blocks of the IPs involved, semi-protection is a worst case. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:13, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for fixing all the commercials and that ridiculous vandalism.  You have way more patience than I.  With all of this, I'm afraid to edit this article.  I wanted to include Mango as a popular flavor, but I didn't because I came upon part of the Rita's website and saw it reported there as Rita's most popular flavor.  On the other hand, where else could such information come from except from those who make and sell much of the product?  It's also interesting that for decades,  John's in South Philly has sold only Lemon Cherry, Pineapple, and Chocolate.  By the way, I think I know the reason for one editor rearranging the popular flavors.  Until about 1985 or 1990 the hard version of Italian ice/water ice found "in your grocer's freezer" (Luigi's, etc.) or on the ice cream vending truck (Jack & Jill, etc.) came only in lemon and cherry, so maybe the editor thought to list them first in popularity.  I know Italian sodas and Italian hard candies come mainly in citrus flavors, so I suspect lemon was the original ice.  Again, Thanks for your diligence.  24.0.195.5 (talk) 21:29, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we found reliable sources for the most popular cheeses and rolls in cheesesteaks, so I wouldn't be surprised if something turned up here. This article is thinly sourced though. Searching for sources has been problematic due to the ubiquity of commercial sites for individual shops (including a lot of Rita's locations) and companies selling their wares. Weeding through them gets tiresome pretty quickly. Sources for flavors, a bit of history, etc. would be nice. Any reliable sources would be appreciated. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:06, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

text: If you can find a reliable source explaining a difference, we'd have something to add. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:31, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

text: Here's your source. Before you add it, however, be aware that the article in question mentions Rita's. Due to an editor who keeps popping up under numerous names (ahem.) wanted to promote there company in this article and objects to the inclusion of anything mentioning Rita's. If you feel the need to include the source, feel free, but you've been warned. If you insist on saying the two terms refer to two different things, I'm going to need a source for that. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:25, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Innocent edit becomes victim of ongoing disputes.  Should I be offended? 

message: Throughout the history of this page, there has been a constant battle over the most common flavors. other than a brief period when one seller of Italian ice cited his shop (ahem...), the lists have been unsourced. I don't see much sense in having this page without some mention of flavors. So, I did some original research. I know. Sue me.
I googled "Italian ice". The first page of hits listed 6 sellers of the stuff. I pulled the lists of their flavors (from 6 to 40 per page). The flavors I listed (blue raspberry, cherry, lemon, mango, orange, strawberry and watermelon) were available from most or all of the sellers. Actually, all were available from all of them, except orange and mango (from 5 each, both omitions were from the shops with 6 flavors). No other flavor was available from more than three. Don't like it? Feel free to "yell" at me here or on my talk page. Better yet, find a reliable independent source and cite a list. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:20, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: A slight correction. 4 of the 6 listed chocolate (the exceptions, again, were the two short lists). If anyone feels strongly about including it, I don't particularly mind. Frankly, I can't stand the stuff. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:36, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flavors 

message: I was just curious whether Italian ice is actually Italian (originating in Italy) or whether, like Italian soda, it's just called that for marketing reasons.  Both Italian ice and Italian soda are frequently available at Italian American restaurants, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.  (I hardly think Olive Garden's menu is a reliable source for what you'll actually find in genuine Italian cuisine...) Lurlock (talk) 21:07, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In Northern Europe, there are many ice-makers from Italian origin. Also the famous contests of ice-makers are held in Italy. And in Italy you can taste the same ice-creams (gelati).  I wonder why this article says in the infobox 'Place of origin: United States'. Bever (talk) 05:27, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italian origin?