Talk:Ich bin ein Berliner/Archive 1

message: Let us all agree from this day forth, We are All jelly doughnuts!  Who would no want to be?
71.111.150.134 17:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

message: All of these are ambiguous. Some will get a few chuckles, others won't. The meanings are clear with the right context but some will get a giggle because everyone will think of the alternative meaning first. I've listed the first thing I would think of first, followed by other interpretations.
;No chuckles
:I am a New Yorker. - from New York City, magazine, Chrysler New Yorker
:I am part Danish. - ancestors were from Denamrk, pastry
:I ate a Hamburger - ate food, ate a person from Hamburg
;Chuckles
:I am a Hamburger. - food, from the city of Hamburg
:I am a Frankfuter. - hot dog, from the city of Frankfurt
commonbrick 18:45, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Examples 

message: Someone had changed all instances of "jelly" to "jam" (i.e. "jam doughnuts"), saying that "jelly" is only used in North America.  I have reverted it back to "jelly" for several reasons:
*Do people in other (English speaking) countries really say "jam doughnut" instead of "jelly doughnut"?
*Even if they did, this is an article about an American president, and the urban legend originated in America.  No one in the US would ever say "jam doughnut".  Certainly not in Florida, where the legend originated.  And I'm sure the original NY Times letter had "jelly", not "jam".
*All the discussions contain "jelly doughnut".  As does the link at the bottom of the page.
*A Google search yields only 903 hits for "jam doughnut", and 14,600 hits for "jelly doughnut".  
--JW1805 28 June 2005 16:33 (UTC)
:See the articles for jam and jelly. They are different things. To most people outside of North America, "jam" is what North Americans call "jelly", and "jelly" is something different. The article needs to clarify what is meant by the use of "jelly". I thought I made a good attempt at it but someone reverted my changes. OptimusPrime 2 July 2005 18:19 (UTC)
:There does seem to be some confusion in the various articles.  In common American speech, "Jam" is a fruit paste with pulp.  "Jelly" is a fruit paste without pulp.  "Jelly" can also mean other sorts of artificial fruit-like spreads, and in general other gelatinous materials (like petroleum jelly).  But not gelatine (which is usually just called "Jell-O", which is a brand name).  In any case, "jelly doughnuts" (regardless of how much pulp the filling contains) are always called "jelly doughnuts", and never "jam doughnuts".  Maybe what is needed is a Jelly Doughnut article, or a note in Berliner_(pastry). --JW1805 2 July 2005 18:56 (UTC)
::You cannot assume that what is common in your country is common internationally. What North Americans (or maybe just USAians?) call "jelly" is called "jam" in most other countries. By extension, what North Americans (or maybe just USAians?) call "jelly doughnuts" are called "jam doughnuts" elsewhere. This story has spread far beyond the USA. Most people/countries call it the "jam doughnut" urban myth. It wouldn't make any sense for them to call it "jelly doughnut". The article should be unambiguous. OptimusPrime 3 July 2005 04:17 (UTC)
:::It just doesn't seem logical, when describing an American urban legend about an American president to use a phrase ("jam doughnut") that does not exist in America.  That would be like calling the comic strip Gasoline Alley "Petrol Alley" because the term "petrol" is used in other countries.  That being said, I agree that the article should be unambiguous.  Maybe having both phrases is a good compromise (but, it does seem a bit redundant).  --JW1805 3 July 2005 05:35 (UTC)
::: Not just Americans.  I live in New Brunswick, Canada, and the pulp/no pulp devision defines jam vs. jelly here, as well.  (Actually as an neurotic child, I used to get miffed when people called them by the opposite name.)  I also support "jelly donut" as it is the only expression I have ever heard used.  User:BalthCat 2006-02-20
::::Doing a google search for "I am a jelly doughnut" and "I am a jam doughnut" and using the two doughnut spellings gives 1560 hits for jelly an 117 for jam. Clearly jelly is the more common translation. Just becasue "jam doughnut" is more common in the rest of the world doesn't mean we have to use it. It's an urban legend started in the US about an American president, hence use American English words. I'm putting it back to jelly doughnut. commonbrick 3 July 2005 05:53 (UTC)
:::::Google measures web usage only. It is not an acceptible measure of language usage as a whole. This is not an issue of US English versus other forms. The article needs to be unambiguous, which means that it needs to mention all variations of the legend. That is what I have been trying to do. Maybe there is a better way to do it (I am open to suggestions), but I see nothing wrong with my version. It mentions the two most popular versons of the myth, giving preference to the original US version (by mentioning it first) in the heading. At the beginning of the third paragraph of that section, the origins of the myth are explained as "The jelly doughnut urban legend apparently arose in Florida in the 1980s". In the article, "jelly" is used in reference to the myth in the USA, and "jam" is used elsewhere. As the jelly article shows, referring to "jelly" as "jam" is a regional variation peculiar to North America. The myth itself is called "jam doughnut" in many countries.
:::::Basically, the article should be equally comprehensible to everyone, whether they are from North America or elsewhere. - OptimusPrime July 3, 2005 06:09 (UTC)
::::::Google is the closest thing we have to measuring a language. Every search ("I am a jelly/jam doughnut/donut" and "jelly/jam doughnut/donut") done using google shows jelly as the more commonly used word, but somehow jam is less ambigious? You said "the article should be equally comprehensible to everyone, whether they are from North America or elsewhere" so how is using jam anymore comprehensible. Neither jam or jelly will be more comprehensible or less ambigious than the other. I'm putting it back to jelly - not because it is more comprehensible - but because that is the more commonly used phrase according to google, because that was the original word in the urban legend, and because it was an American president giving a speech. I've created a little list below for reasons to use jam vs jelly, feel free to add to it. commonbrick 3 July 2005 16:26 (UTC)
:::::::I always heard it as jelly doughnut. I've also always heard it as truth, rather than urban legend, so I guess I'm not a good source. HereToHelp 22:50, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
----
Jam
* Used in more countries
Jelly
* Used by almost 75% of native English speakers
* More hits using google
:* "jelly/jam doughnut/donut" - Jelly 39,200 and Jam 1,521
:* "I am a jelly/jam doughnut/donut" - Jelly 1,560 and Jam 117
* Was the orignal word used in the urban legend
* Speech given by an American president
----
I like the new version. Kudos to JW1805. commonbrick 3 July 2005 16:42 (UTC)
:*English is an international language, so counting only "native" speakers is pointless. Millions of people worldwide use it as a secondary language, and often use it fluently. Some countries (e.g. India) have English as an official language, despite most citizens not learning it as their first language.
:*Google stats are next to useless. Web use is not world use.
:*Nobody is arguing that jam was used in the original legend, or that the speesch was not given by a US president. You are attacking a straw man.
:With that said, I don't mind the new version. I think it should be understandable enough to non-USAians. - OptimusPrime July 4, 2005 00:11 (UTC)
I'm not going to aruge over jelly and jam anymore. We have an article we can both agree on so lets just drop it. commonbrick 4 July 2005 02:04 (UTC)
----
could we discuss this here: Talk:Berliner_%28pastry%29
this page is about Kennedy, not about what a Berliner_%28pastry%29 is
--androl
----
The article for Berliner refers to jam, rather than jelly. As such, would it be fair to say that a berliner is not the same thing as a jelly doughnut even by American standards? Referring to a German pastry by a uniquely American term seems wrong to me. Mezziekins 11:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We have been through this several times already. The term "jelly doughnut" is used simply because that is what the urban legend usually asserts: "I am a jelly doughnut" - which Kennedy did not say. A Pfannkuchen is similar, but not the same as a jelly doughnut, and it's not usually filled with jam or jelly (the latter term not usually used in this context outside North America), but with plum sauce. Please read through the discussion; you'll probably find that your concerns have been addressed. Regards,  ProhibitOnions  (T) 15:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: It Must Be Jelly 'Cause Jam Don't Shake Like That

message: Thanks to the usual vandal, this time masquerading as "Prohibit0nions" (with an 0 instead of an O), I have requested that this page be protected. ProhibitOnions 17:23, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Page protection

message: I first heard this legend (and believed it and passed it on, I'm afraid) in high school in Wisconsin sometime during 1971 or early 1972. It did not begin in Florida in the 1980s as the article claims. --24.16.140.106 23:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The urban legend is much older than the article says

message: Just for the record I was there and heard the speech live. I agree with ProhibitOnions. (And anyone who impersonates deserves an infinite ban.) --Anjouli 07:55, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow! ProhibitOnions 14:27, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Anjouli was there

message: The universal reaction I received from ordinary Germans was that everybody knew Kennedy made a slight error. Technically he called himself a donut, they agreed, but German grammar is so complex that non-natives butcher it regularly.
: Please stop spreading this nonsense. Ordinary Germans will not, I repeat, will not call it a "slight error". Both forms are correct (!) but they carry a "slight difference" in what it means. The most they could have possibly agreed with you is that the sentence would also (!) allow for the interpretation of the doughnut "Berliner". However this association is remote and common sense calls that "a play of words" - get the idea of someone presenting himself to you (with a strong foreign accent) "hello, I am Ceylon" and you'd reply "Oh, you're a tea?!". In the actual situation you would never ever misinterpret the phrase, no way. That is strictly correct for the historic situation since Berlin does not even know a doughnut named "Berliner". So historically there would be not even a play of words on the spot. It was merily impossible back then - it's all made up later on. Greetings from Berlin (and if that is not authoritive then have a look into the article where reference to a linguist is made - that guy should probably outweigh any highschool teacher you came across). Guidod 14:59, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, ich bin auch ein Berliner! Add yourself to Category:Wikipedians in Berlin, Guidod! ProhibitOnions 12:12, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I deserve a solid kick in the pants for not returning here earlier (aptly delivered at my RFA by ProhibitOnions).  Perhaps my encounters were with a statistical aberration among ordinary Germans.  I don't know of anyone who mistook Kennedy's intention when he made the speech.  Regarding laughter, the typical elaboration on this story is that Germans tittered when he delivered this particular line.  They may have laughed at other moments in the speech where he intended humor.  Regards and respects, Durova 05:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  stop it 

message: Either Lisa Simpson doesn't know German or she thinks she's a boy. Otherwise she would have said, more correctly, "Ich bin eine Gymnastin!" JIP | Talk 08:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the Simpsons episode 

message: > "Ich bin ein Berliner" ("I am a citizen of Berlin") is a famous quotation
This is incorrect in the article, because the sentence means "I am a sausage" in german. It is well-known that JFK said stupidity in the speech and half of german attendants were laughing about that loud, but film footage of that is not often shown in documentaries in order not to offend America.
:Sausage in German is Wurst. Thank you.--Kungfu Adam (talk) 10:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  JFK said he is a sausage, literally 

message: Of course JFK's usage was grammatically correct.  Until I saw this Wikipedia article, I knew of no one claiming otherwise.  What he did do is unwittingly use a local idiom, in which Berliner is a jelly donut.
: 16:07, 26 June 2006 205.175.225.5 
:: As the article says very distinctively: the local idiom in Berlin does NOT have a word Berliner referring to a jelly donut, the local idiom for a jelly donut is Pfannkuchen (pancake). *sigh* but even if there would have been a homonymous word (allowing for a play of words) without a little push (by that legendary "grammatical error") it would not have been giving the slightest foundation for a misunderstanding ... allowing to call the German words to be picked unwittingly. It's been picked, checked and without doubt, Oll Korrekt. Guidod 13:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Idiom 

message: The citation to BBC  is a from Letter from America, using storytelling, not an actual article. The Guardian article also gives the myth as an anecdote -- the article is about printing media and is written by a graphic artist. They don't really feel like something that I'd qualify as "reputable" sources for information about presidential speeches, nor something that editors would generally try to correct. 128.195.15.99 20:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't say "reported as factual news stories"; it says "the legend has been repeated by reputable media," which I think is a reasonable statement. It shows at least that it slips past the fact-checkers with great regularity.  ProhibitOnions  (T) 21:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed -- the context is the currency of the myth, and those are excellent examples. --Dhartung | Talk 23:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  BBC story listed as "been repeated by reputable media" 

message: It seems that there is still a habit of "atleast there must be something in it". So I chose to rebuild the section on the jelly donut legend part as a strict deconstruction running point by point. The legend does not have any factual foundation based on the historic event - it is a pure invention made in the USA that might have been thrown up as a joke of "Did he say Berliner? Isn't there a donut by that name?". Guidod 14:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  deconstruction 

message: Every German language teacher or professor I ever had, including several who were native speakers, made a point of specifying this speech in the classroom as an example of incorrect grammar.  Characterizing it as an urban legend is inappropriate.  The article cites a single linguist in Kennedy's defense, then claims that the media made it up out of whole cloth: WP:NOR.  While the bit about people laughing during the speech is probably exaggerated, it is (to many German speakers) the equivalent of the difference in English between saying "I am Danish." and "I am a danish."  What mattered more at the time, of course, was that they understood the intention of Kennedy's sentiment.
And the question of whether the donut in question is sold in Berlin is moot: foods are often named after some distant place.  The "French crullers" sold in American donut shops resemble no pastry I've seen in France, "English muffins" look like no muffin from England, "New York cheesecake" rarely resembles the cheesecakes actually sold in New York, "neapolitan" ice cream does not come from Naples, etc. Durova 13:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, this is nonsense, and your insights have already been discussed on this page, if you'd care to look. Read the German Wikipedia, if you can. The only reference to the legend is as something propagated by English speakers, except that Interessanterweise wird die Geschichte mittlerweile auch von deutschen Muttersprachlern unreflektiert aus dem Englischen übernommen. So much for your teachers.  ProhibitOnions  (T) 18:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Fascinating -- when I ran the German article through Google translation, it comes out "I am a citizen of Berlin". The "jelly doughnut" story clearly first appeared in English. If it had been an important distinction to real Berliners, citations would be easily found. --Dhartung | Talk 19:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Curtsey.  Point conceded. Durova 05:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed flag 

message: According to many a translation site and many a German, the correct way to say you are from a certain city is to say "Ich bin (city)."  While we all love JFK and everyone knows exactly what he wanted to say, he did in fact call himself a Berliner, a type of jelly doughnut.  While we cannot dispute what he was trying to say, this is not an urban legend and JFK did call himself a doughnut.  Needs more documentation on how this is to be the correct way to say you are from a German city. (even if he did stress the "ein").
Cleric 20:03, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are talkingto Germans on this page. Kindly provide links to the "many" sources you are referring to that support the legend, and we'll discuss them. ProhibitOnions (T) 23:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Per your request, I do not have any specific sources stating that it is a legend as the article does not have enough sources to call it a myth/legend.  I am not arguing the fact that of what it means, but what it can also mean.  According to the linguist quoted in the article, "In spite of the fact that it's also the correct way to say "I am a jelly doughnut," no adult German speaker could possibly have misunderstood Kennedy's meaning in context."  I have stated this above but requested for additional sources stating that it is a myth/legend.  It has 2 meanings.  This is no myth.  This is factual and should be stated as such.  Above, I stated, "While we cannot dispute what he was trying to say, this is not an urban legend."  
Cleric 21:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Except that (sigh) a "jelly doughnut" isn't called a Berliner here in Berlin, and this has already been discussed to death. It is a myth, and we have plenty of sources to show this. What I asked you to provide were any reputable sources showing that this story is not a myth. You have yet to do so. ProhibitOnions (T) 21:55, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Here is what I stated previously..."According to the linguist quoted in the article, "In spite of the fact that it's also the correct way to say "I am a jelly doughnut," no adult German speaker could possibly have misunderstood Kennedy's meaning in context."
How does this not contradict what is stated? I understand that it "has already been discussed to death" but if the linguist that is quoted in the article is stating that it has two meanings, then it is not a myth.  Cleric 18:33, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Why don't you read the discussion, then? Yes "ein Berliner" means "a male person from Berlin." Yes, in some parts of Germany (but not Berlin) it also means "a deep-fried pastry filled with plum sauce similar to a jelly doughnut." So yes, if these pastries could talk, they might conceivably say "Ich bin ein Berliner." However, that's not the legend. The legend is as follows: Kennedy said "Ich bin ein Berliner," which is a grammatical mistake, because he should not have included the indefinite article; due to this mistake his statement was not "I am a citizen of Berlin" but a non-human Berliner; ergo "I am a doughnut." The crowd burst out laughing at this ridiculous error. It relies on a smug assumption that Kennedy said something disastrously wrong that meant something far removed than what he intended; this never happened, and you can watch the video to confirm this. I don't know how often we have to repeat this: The urban legend is not true. You only hear it in English-language sources, and the number of English-speakers who speak and understand German well is small indeed. A more recent example of this kind of thing would be the news item widely reported in the English-language media a couple of years ago, according to which unemployed German women would be required to work as prostitutes  , which obviously stemmed from some English-speaking clever-clogs "translating German" without understanding the subjunctive 1 form, which deals with reported speech or hypothetical situations. ProhibitOnions (T) 21:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Point taken. However, as mentioned earlier, this term isn't used in Berlin, so speaking in Berlin he would not, in fact, be saying he was a jelly doughnut. ProhibitOnions (T) 11:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dispute