Talk:Saponi

message: Note: The content in this site has no affiliation with the recognized Tribe of Sappony. The contributors are violating the cultural property rights of the Sappony by using the name and identity of an existing Tribe. The inaccurate content and affiliation should not be permitted. The information is grossly inaccurate and dismissive. 
NOTE: Proceed with caution! The following info contains personal opinion and conjecture. Rife with bad grammar and inaccuracies, the majority of data provided here should be treated as "entertainment" to promote further study. 
Insitemobile (talk) 13:19, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, the page doesn't say that today's North Carolina groups have proven their ancestry, merely that the state recognizes three groups and that some people claim ancestry, but it is controversial.  Sounds ok to me.  I think there is pretty good evidence (but not proof as far as I know) that not all the Saponi and related peoples moved north to the Iroquois lands. There's a fairly in-depth study on the topic published on the web here http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/part2/index2_1.html or as a PDF here http://rla.unc.edu/Publications/NCArch/SIS_40(e-book).pdf ..some of which is summarized over at Occaneechi.  In any case, I don't see anything about proof on this page, so I'm not sure what you would like to correct. Pfly 20:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tribal heritage

message: The photo on the Saponi wiki page is of the Guy family,  they was Catawba, NOT Saponi.
Also the "Occaneechi Saponi" and "Sapony" tribes in NC have no proof of any Saponi decent.
These two tribe's ancestors was not in The Granville area till around the late 1700's to early 1800's.   They are using information about the Saponi and Collins family. The "Sapony" tribe descends from the Nottoway tribe while the occaneechi Saponi tribe descends from the Catawba tribe so they should NOT be added to this page which discuses the Saponi.  If this page was about Catawba or Nottoway then the "Sapony" and "Occaneechi Saponi" would belong...however this is about the historical Saponi.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 15:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The Real Saponi

message: http://www.angelfire.com/wv2/dillon1944/native_american_names.htm  , William Guy claims  Saponi/ Catawba. You see a persons  " tribe": as everyone wants to call it  had only to do with location  not always was that your historical  heritage/ that is not always about lineage nor were they really a tribe.. but just a city . But  just locations of people of the same tribe-language , at the moment .  we have to  think of towns like  they were clans of each other  and  they were  all and had interbred  for ages with each other . You are trying to make one people out of many people , and many kinds of people into one idea  as if you can separate each city from it's nation into it's own thing , that would be a  wrong way to think about it . LIKE  Washington Dc isn't more  or less " American"  than  New York or Hoboken it is still the same nation.. with yes tiny bits of differences. not that big..  Cofitachiqui (talk) 15:49, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  you might want to read this 

message: 27 Sept 1728 
"Sir: 
The 27th of September John Carter brought Negro Cofey to my house, as he says, by your orders, for me to examine concerning what the Saponys have told him about the white people, which I have done, and he tells me: that Great George told him that John Sauano and a fellow called Ben Harrison was gone to the Cotobers to fetch one hundred of them to come and see why their Indians was put in prison, and if Capt. Tom was hanged they would carry their wives and children over the Roanoke River and then they would drive the white people and negros as far as James River, and he says that Tony Mack told him that if Pyah was hanged he and the Cotobers would come and take revenge of the English, and he says that Sapony Tom told him if his son Harry Erwin was hanged they would kill you and three or four more Gentlemen and then go off," The original document is held by the Virginia Historical Society, Richmond, VA and will give you a copy of the original. 
In 1730, "William Bohannon came into court and made oath that about twenty-six of the Sapony Indians that inhabit Colonel Spotswood's land in Fox's neck go about and do a great deal of mischief by firing the woods; more especially on the 17th day of April last whereby several farrows of pigs were burnt in their beds, and that he verily believes that one of the Indians shot at him the same day, the bullet entering a tree within four feet of him; that he saw the Indian about one hundred yards from him, and no game of any sort between them; that the Indian after firing his gun stood in a stooping manner very studdy [steady] so that he could hardly discern him from a stump, that he has lost more of his pigs than usual since the coming of the said Indians; which is ordered to be certified to the General Assembly. " Orange county VA
1740:
About this time a number of Saponi and the Majority if not all the Tutelo move to shamokin, Pennsylvania under Iroqious protestion.
1742 ""Alexander Machartoon, John Bowling, Manicassa, Capt. Tom, Isaac, Harry, 
Blind Tom, Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins, Little Jack. Saponi Indians 
being brought before the court by precept under the hands and seals of Wm 
Russell & Edward Spencer, Gent. for terrifying one Lawrence Strother and on 
suspicion of stealing hoggs........" Orange county, VA
(Orange Co..VA Order Book 3 1741-1743. 309) Orange Co Va Microfilm Reel 
31, Va 
"25 Jan 1745 Louisa County, Virginia Court: William Hall, Samuel Collins, William Collins, Samuel Bunch, George Gibson, Benjamin Brannum, Thomas Gibson, & William Donothan appear to answer an indictment for concealing tithables. Plead not guilty, Case continued."
1749:
3598 pg 384 WILLIAM MACKINTOSH 13 October 1749 200 acres in Johnston County on the S. side of the Neuse River on a place called Powells run near Sapony Camps, joining near the sd. run.
1751 near Orange county Va:
A party of indians visit a Indian burial mound, Thomas Jefferson observed this in which he later dug into.
"A party of Indians passing about 1751 where this barrow is, near Charlottesville, went through the woods directly to it, without any instructions or inquiry, and having staid about it some time, with expressions construed to be those of sorrow, returned to the high road, which they had left about six miles to pay this visit, and pursued their journey."" This was the county bordering Orange county Va.
1753:
The Tutelo and some Saponi are adopted into the League of Iroqious.
1754:
Granville—Willm Eaton Esqr Coll: of Granville county His Regimt consists of 8 companys 734 besides officers 2 Captns Simms & Jones are moved away the others Resigned He thinks the fines on delinquents should be fixed by a Court Martial.
No arms or ammunition in the Stores There are about 12 or 14 Sapona men and as many women & children in the county Major Payne by Col: Eaton for Granville county recommends John Martin to be Captn over part of Sugar Jones Company & Willm Hawkins Captn over the other part above Shaws Road and John Hawkins Captn over part of Richd Coleman's Company & Willm Johnston over part of Willm Harris Company & Willm Paton Captn instead of Benjamin Sims moved away Capt Hursts Troop with officers 32. Report concerning the militia in each county of North Carolina
Creator: No Author 1754 Volume 5, Pages 161 - 163. Found on Page 162.
April 19 1755:
Abstracts of the Minutes of the 
Court of Pleas and Quarter 
Sessions Rowan County, 
North Carolina 1753-1762
II:72 19 April 1755
Esquires present: Jas Carter, Jno Handby, Alexr Osburn & Thos Potts. … Whereas John Auston a Saponia Indian and Mary a Susquhanah Indian and Thos a Cattaaba applied for a pass to the Cataba Nation being now on their Journey to conclude a Genl Peace with ye Catabas in behalf of the Sd Nation and also presented 3 Belts of Wampum to Sd Court by which the sd Treaty is to be concluded.
Copyright Jo White Linn 1977
Mrs. Stahle Linn, Jr.
Box 1948
Salisbury, N.C. 28144 
Stamped (Carnegie Public Library, Washington C. H., Ohio 43160)"
1761:
A 1761 report counted 20 Saponi warriors in the area of Granville County, NC 
Quere 13 What is the number of the Indians inhabiting those parts of America lyeing within or bounding upon your Province? What Contracts or Treaties of Peace have been made with them and are now in force? What Trade is carried on with them and under what Regulations and how have these Regulations been established?
Answer The only Tribes or remains of Tribes of Indians residing in this Province are the Tuskerora Sapona Meherin and Maramuskito Indians. The Tuskerora have about 100 fighting men the Saponas and Meherrin Indians about 20 each and the Maramuskitos about 7 or 8. the first 3 are situated in the Middle of the Colony upon and near Roanoak and have by Law 10,000 acres of Land allotted to them in Lord Granvilles District they live chiefly by hunting and are in perfect friendship with the Inhabitants
The Catauba Indians who are also in close friendship with the Inhabitants resided upon the Cataubas river near our Western Frontier near the Boundary Line in 35° No Latitude proposed to be laid out betwixt this and the South Province they consisted within these few years of about 300 fighting men but last year the small pox ravaged in their Towns which made them desert them and leave their sick behind them to perish; by an account from their King Haglar to me they are reduced to 60 fighting and about as many old men and boys and a suitable number of Women, upon which and the Cherokee war they removed farther West upon or near the Boundary Line where they have had a Town laid out for them in South Carolina but allege that they are still within this Government Mr. Glenn wantonly promised them a District of 30 Miles radius round their Towns, which wod have contained about 1,800,000 acres, but now as they are reduced I suppose less than 10,000 acres will content them.
page 616
Report by Arthur Dobbs concerning general conditions in North Carolina
Creator: Arthur Dobbs (1689-1765) 
1761 
Volume 6
[B. P. R. O. North Carolina B. T. Vol. 14. E. 53.]
THE COLONY, ITS CLIMATE, SOIL, POPULATION, GOVERNMENT,
RESOURCES, &c.
An Answer to the several Queries sent by the Lords Commissioners for Trade and Plantations.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 16:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The Real Saponi part 2

message: Has there been any independent research conducted to link the Person County group to the Sapponi? 155.84.57.253 (talk) 17:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Language Research

message: This article needs a lot of work, most of which I cannot perform, especially not in Illinois. I really don't want to get stuck in culture wars, though. While I appreciated the long letter included earlier on this talk page, I think the article needs lots of trimming, combined with citeable references and wikilinks. Quite simply, while in the colonial era, people of european descent and high social status probably thought more highly of Native Americans (possibly to justify unfair treaties), by the 19th century, anyone with any bit of African ancestry was lumped as Negro and discriminated against. Still, in this article, I think the focus should be on the Saponi, not discuss racism at length.Jweaver28 (talk) 03:26, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  History vs culture wars 

message: We are at an editathon at Chapel Hill, and tribal members have requested that we update this article to their preferred spelling, Sappony. This spelling is also used in the LEARN NC guide to teaching about North Carolina American Indians, which has been written and approved by tribal members. --Djembayz (talk) 00:12, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change of name of the tribe 

message: Substituted at 01:13, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: A combination of native peoples of Eastern North America and from other continents before the discovery of this continent by Christopher Columbus in 1492. Sapon not only means "black" or "brown", there was a village called Japan, North Carolina displaced by a dam project in the 1930s had theorized their ancestors were East Asian (most likely of Japanese origin) who arrived in the west coast and traveled east into the Gulf and later Atlantic coasts over 1,000 years ago. And the Haliwa might be of Siberian (Turkic?) and Polynesian (similar to Hawaii and Micronesia) origins crossed western Canada and or the narrower Mexican peninsula roughly the same time. A DNA test can confirm this, but the Cherokee or anyone who claimed Cherokee and Haliwa-Saponi descent in DNA tests in recent years, find they were often of Scottish/English and other Northern/Western European, with some Spanish/Portuguese, Black or West African, even Sephardic Jewish and Moorish-Berber-Arab genetic lineage, with relatively few or absent Amerindian in them. 12.218.47.124 (talk) 02:41, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theories of the origins of Haliwa-Saponi and Cherokees 

message: After reading through the cited sources, I found nothing that supports the implied claim that the various mentioned groups have been recognized by any entity that would entitle them to be mentioned in this article, or that would support any claim to notability. - Donald Albury 22:12, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note the requirements for sources to be considered reliable in Wikipedia. That content guideline states, "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we publish the opinions only of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves." The websites of tribes recognized by the Federal and/or state governments generally have limited usage as sources, primarily to support non-controversial statements about the tribal organizations. While some of the sources cited in the article state that some Sappony moved to Ohio and other midwestern states, they do not establish that such people have continuously maintained their tribal culture and identity (generally necessary for recognition as a tribe), nor do they establish that any persons or any organizations in those states have been formally recognized by the Halaw-Saponi, Occanechee Band of the Saponi Nation, or Sappony tribes as Sappony. - Donald Albury 13:42, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed section on community recognized tribal groups 

message: Hey, guys, I found this old picture we might find interesting. It's old enough to be open domain, I just can't figure out how to add it, so I'll just post the link to the site. I saw the Eastern Siouan style headdress. The man is stated as Mohawk, but I think he might be Saponi. Look for the pic of the man kneeling.
http://iroquoisbeadwork.blogspot.com/2011/03/historic-images-of-kahnawake-3.html?m=1 Bobbotronica (talk) 04:30, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: The etymology section has had several issues.  The main section of the article states correctly the Saponi spoke the Tutelo-Saponi language.  The Tutelo wikipedia entry references the fact that the Tutelo-Saponi are recognized as a single Siouan group since the 17th century.  Yet the etymology section of the 'Sappony' article references definitions of the name 'Saponi' that ignore what is stated in the Tutelo wikipedia entry.   The objectivity of the sources and citations in the etymology section versus other sections in the same article show inconsistencies.  comment added by Federer20201 (talk) 01:34, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: page moved.  Donald Albury 20:54, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Sappony →  – Saponi is most common spelling used for the historical tribe in literature. Today several state-recognized tribes claim descent from the Saponi, the majority use the "Saponi" spelling, while one tribe uses "Sappony" as its official name. The name "Sappony" should be used for an article for that state-recognized tribe, as opposed to the entire ethnic group. Yuchitown (talk) 16:56, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

text: Support And thanks to Yuchitown for cleaning up the article. - Donald Albury 19:01, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry that I made a hash of accidently moving the talk page but fortunately was able to move it back. Yuchitown (talk) 21:07, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 26 January 2022 

message: I think I have caught all of the double redirects. A second look wouldn't hurt. - Donald Albury 21:26, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed three malingerers. Thanks for doing this! Yuchitown (talk) 23:24, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move cleanup