Talk:Medieval Greek

message: Isn't the Greek used in the Liturgy of the Greek Orthodox Church essentially Medieval Greek?72.24.129.97 01:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Use as a Liturgical Language

message: Reading Constantinus Porfirogenitus I found τούμβικας and not τού βικας, I don't know if it is relevant, just adding some info. Bruno Gripp 04:09, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Latin Greek

message: Suffixes
    * -aton: Μαγιστράτον, μανδάτον, δουκάτον etc.
    * -atos: Αμυγδαλάτος, καρυδάτος, κυδωνάτος, πιπεράτος etc.
    * -arios: Νοτάριος, σχολάριος etc.
    * -poullos/poullon: Κομητόπουλλος, Τουρκόπουλλος, Αρχοντόπουλλον, Φραγκόπουλλον etc.
    * -isios: Καστρήσιος, κολονήσιος, βουνήσιος etc.
    * -anos: Δέκανος, Πάγανος etc.
    * -alion: Μανουάλλιον, Μενσάλλιον, τριβουνάλιον etc.
Are these all definitely suffixes of Latin origin?
201.21.96.49 19:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd have to look things up, but it looks pretty plausible to me. For instance, the ones in -atos are obviously derived from passive participle forms of the Latin a-conjugation, in -atus. -arios comes from the Latin actor nominals in -arius (incidentally, English -er as in singer is borrowed from the same Latin ending). Those in -alion have the Latin adjectival ending -al-, as in μανοάλλιον < Lat. manual- < manus 'hand'. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Interesting as your arguments may be, they are flawed. -isius is not a Latin word ending; you must mean -ensis, as in castrensis, colonensis. You might also want to reconsider equating the superlative presbýtatos (with short, unstressed 'a') with the perfect tense participle piperátos (with stresed 'a'). Your explanation is too simplistic. Iblardi 04:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latin roots? 

message: I find this feature interesting, but under what "restricted" circumstances did this mutation happen?  Is there a source?  I want to learn more about this. - Gilgamesh 10:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ω to ου 

message: I wanted to insert text into another article using Medieval Greek, but I can't find a lang template for it... There appear to be only Modern Greek and Ancient Greek templates.  SHould someone make a Med Gr template, or should I use one of the other existing ones?
Anatoly.bourov (talk) 16:25, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think there is a separate template. Just spell out "Medieval Greek:" manually, and then say  or . In terms of html markup, ancient and medieval doesn't really make a difference (important thing is just that the browser gets what instructions it needs to select a polytonic font.) Also, I'd use explicit "Medieval" only where it really makes a difference linguistically, otherwise, simply "Greek" is often quite appropriate. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  multilingual support template 

message: Medieval greek language starts 1100 CE and ends near 1700 in a period of intense cultural changes. Your dates are out of context my friends and this article inaccurate. Cambridge sources and the greek Lexicon of medieval language by Kriaras do agree on the above mentioned dates --Kalogeropoulos (talk) 16:20, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand that the periodization is artificial to some degree. If you wish to propose a different one, you are welcome to provide sources. Iblardi (talk) 18:44, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, take a look at []--Flyax (talk) 20:15, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That is interesting. It looks like the boundaries are rather fluid; the periodization of your source corresponds largely with that of the Cambridge project mentioned in the article. Yet there are other sources more traditionally(?) equating 'Medieval Greek' with 'the spoken language of the Byzantine period'. Perhaps someone with a more specialized knowledge could comment on this issue. Iblardi (talk) 20:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly I do not see any sources on this matter in the article. Secondly the main Lexicon for medieval greek language by Kriaras is quite affirmative on these dates Επιτομή Λεξικού της Μεσαιωνικής Ελληνικής Δημώδους Γραμματείας (1100-1669), the main source you 'll agree I think. Anyway when we are talking about languages we should provide linguistic context not historical. Even historical context though is a little bit controversial--Kalogeropoulos (talk) 21:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is the source that the user above linked to. A different source, however, is referred to in the infobox. Although I am not completely sure, I think Browning has roughly the same boundaries for the 'medieval' period. It doesn't seem like a clear-cut issue. Iblardi (talk) 21:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is that whoever created this infobox has done it on an arbitrary way, and is not providing sources. No sources at all even in the article. By the way clearly Mango refers in the link you provide that only after ninth century CE we can confirm greek as official language of the eastern roman empire. This date is coming closer to this one of medieval greek. What is described in this article actually is only koine and attikism, and a few words about iotakism the phenomenon that gets us to medieval language. --Kalogeropoulos (talk) 22:05, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This may be a misunderstanding. I provided no link, but I did provide a source for the periodizations in the infobox. What source are you referring to when you mention Mango, and in what way is his statement relevant to the discussion? Iblardi (talk) 22:18, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Well, apparently they have the medieval period end with the fall of Crete in 1669, but it is equally apparent that a "Medieval Greek language" is in existence before AD 959, when our article's Constantine is reporting bits from it. Iblardi (talk) 22:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Koine is not medieval, that's what I'm trying to say--Kalogeropoulos (talk) 22:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Medieval greek in 500?

message: ..is disputed?150.140.225.175 (talk) 04:54, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: what part of factual accuracy?

message: Still disputed for the above mentioned reasons --Kalogeropoulos (talk) 18:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean the dating? What we all need to be aware of is that there is never any objective truth about such period boundaries. They are for the most part conventional labels, nothing more. What we ought to have in the article is a short section called "periodization", discussing the various labels and cutoff times that have been proposed in the literature. There will doubtless be many different versions out there, as with almost any language. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be much easier if you just renamed this aricle to Byzantine Greek. It's both the most popular and best descriptive name. Miskin (talk) 14:51, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is not since Byzantine Greek is an invention of the XIX century by the 'Germans'. Just like 'Byzantine Empire'. Everything was Greek based on medieval Greek sources. Thus 'Medieval Greek' and 'Greek Christian Orthodox Empire'. I wonder why the 'Germans' would distribute that large quantity of lies... oh, wait! 78.55.25.172 (talk) 23:24, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Still disputed...

message: That would be cool & useful, a sample of words first attested in Medeival Greek: buzi(on)?, poungion? etc. In Romanian there is pungă (bag, the most common Romanian word for bag), which according to the 2002 NODEX is from New Greek punghi, while buzi(on) is the source of buzunara, Ro. buzunar (pocket, the most common Romanian word for pocket, in fact I can't find or think of a synonym). Alex (talk) 04:23, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: A sample list of words first attested in Med. Greek

message: some of the loanwords included dont have a certain origin so im not sure if they are good for showcasing the different languages that influenced greek...both alb louloúdi and slav gouna eg have been thought of as latin loans into greek also..perhaps they should be replaced by words that have certain origins (like loutsa<alb llucë puddle of water and kounadi/kounavi<slav kuna marten)..87.202.7.244 (talk) 06:02, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  loanwords from other languages small comment 

message: This article refers a "gkm" ISO code, but that doesn't seem to be valid. The link to SIL does not provide valid documentation either. Malafaya (talk) 23:40, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It was proposed back in 2006 and yet to be decided on.  — kwami (talk) 22:19, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  ISO code 

message: The section on the development of consonant clusters includes that the shift of /fs/>/ps/ and /xs/>/ks/ affected letters ψ and ξ "internally".  This implies that we are suggesting that ψ/ξ were double consonants for φσ/χσ–and went through the same sound changes as φ/χ from aspirated plosive to fricative.  This is inline with Wiktionary's pronunciation keys for Greek, which have words like ψυχή as /pʰsyː.kʰɛ᷄ː/>/ɸsy.ˈxi/>/psi.ˈçi/ or ἄξιος as /ákʰsi.os/>/ˈaxsios/>/ˈaksios/.  However, I have not seen any other source which says that these pronounced /pʰs/ and /kʰs/ and not /ps/ and /ks/, remaining unchanged since ancient times.  Despite the Old Athenian writings of ΦΣ/ΧΣ, Horrocks believes that this actually "impl[ies] that [s] was perceived as having an acoustic effect on the preceding plosive analogous to aspiration" (Geoffrey Horrocks, Greek: A history of the language and its speakers, pg. 40)  If indeed we are claiming that ψ/ξ were aspirated plosives>fricatives, please find sourcing. If not, remove this point.  Keep in mind also that, for consistency's sake, Wikipedia's page on "Psi (letter)" states that, "In both Classical and Modern Greek, the letter indicates the combination /ps/" and the one on "Xi (letter)" also has it as [ks] in ancient and modern times.  
Iotacist (talk) 23:36, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for spotting this. I have to admit I find it hard to parse what the expression "happened internally to ψ" is even supposed to mean. But I quite agree a sound development of /pʰs/ > /fs/ > /ps/ (in words spelled with <ψ> throughout) is implausible. I would otherwise have assumed that the line about /fs/ > /ps/ was meant to refer to cases like "καύσω" > "κάψω". Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:12, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: phonology: consonant cluster shift, concerning ψ/ξ

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Just wondering: I heard that the Cambridge Grammar of Medieval Greek in book form is supposed to come out this year. Does anyone know when?Iotacist (talk) 23:53, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cambridge Grammar of Medieval Greek 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: Wasn't an important development in Medieval/Middle/Byzantine Greek the sound change /ɸ/ > /f/ for the letter φ (or /pʰ/ > /ɸ/ > /f/ for the letter φ, depending upon how early one begins the "Middle" period of Greek's development)? This was a relevant datum that I learned about the historical evolution of Greek phonology in my studies, and I can no longer find it anywhere on the page. It seems that a discussion of this development was lost somewhere in the years this page has been updated. Either way, a discussion of this transition of /ɸ/ > /f/ (if not also /pʰ/ > /ɸ/) seems warranted. - --Webspidrman (talk) 20:18, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: A question of φ

message: [fθ] → [ft] (φθόνος ['fθonos] → φτόνος ['ftonos])
But αὐθέντης → αφέντης, i.e. the origin of [f] mattered? Or was it an exception? 89.64.68.220 (talk) 00:45, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consonants 

message: Is there any good reason why the native name "Romaic" is kept so obscured behind numerous "scientific" names, despite it being the endonym and adequately describing it's own relation to Greek history?  RadomirZinovyev 23:13, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article name