Talk:HonestReporting

message: This article read like a TV commercial for Honest Reporting.  This is a highly controversial organization which often lobbies in western nations in favor of policies supportive of Israeli settlement activity.  This makes the organization not only controversial, but against mainstream public opinion in nearly all countries in the world.
Editors should note that just because an organization calls itself "Honest Reporting" does not immediately lead to the argument that it supports honest reporting in the media.  Also, just because an organization claims it is fighting "anti Israel bias" in the media does not lead to the notion that there actually is a "anti-Israel bias" in western media.  The correct, non-POV description of the organization is "HonestReporting is a controversial watchdog organization that monitors the media for what it considers bias against Israel". Having explained how the organization defines itself, I have then posted how the critics define the organizations.
I have also added some information to the criticism section to balance out the article and make it more in tune with the actual reputation of the organization.  These criticisms have been added along with appropriate references so please do not remove.  
I made these changes a month ago, but they were immediately deleted by user "Contacteeperson" with the astonishing tag "serious NPV issues".  I am reverting back.  Deleting referenced criticisms of a highly controversial organization is not an NPOV corrective action, but rather the very opposite.
If anyone feels the changes are not in line with NPOV please discuss.
207.188.69.26 (talk) 17:53, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: The original entry for Honest Reporting read, "Honest Reporting is a media watchdog group that monitors and reports anti-Israel bias." Quite true. This is what Honest Reporting states on their mission statement page, which now has an external link. However, the phrase "It does not claim to monitor or report pro-Israel bias" was added. This does not occur on their mission statement page, and has no external source to back it up. Thus, it would be considered "original research" and either needs to be removed or supported with some external source. It also demonstrates POV, because it singles out the fact that Honest Reporting does not report on pro-Israel bias while ignoring all of the other things that Honest Reporting does not report on. Please stop adding this phrase unless it can somehow be fixed so that it does not violate POV and original research. --ARoyal 18:21, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To some degree I agree with you, ARoyal. But, as evidenced by the purpose statements that you get when you google "Honest Reporting" +israel, it appears to be operating from one side of the POV in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. However, it is worth noting that if Honest Reporting is generally a partisan organization, it should be noted as such, which is basically what the inclusion of the phrase telling that it does not report bias on the other side of the POV fence does. --Kuzaar-T-C- 18:27, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Additionally, you'll notice that in their mission statement they frame their mission in terms of a "battle for public opinion", which implies that they're not fighting for what they would construe as media bias, such as anti-Palestinian, pro-Israeli bias. Just a thought. --Kuzaar-T-C- 18:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats fair criticism of Honest Reporting. However, it doesn't belong as original research in the introduction for Honest Reporting. Singling out one thing out of many that Honest Reporting does not report on is being used in this instance in an attempt to discredit Honest Reporting. If Honest Reporting has a bias, then perhaps someone should make a criticism section and fill it with verifiable sources that claim such. However, making the claim that Honest Reporting does not report on pro-Israel bias implies that it has a pro-Israel bias, and is coming from the editors POV rather than a verifiable source. It needs to go until it can be supported with a verifiable source, and even then should be in a criticism section.--ARoyal 18:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. —Ashley Y 18:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I disagree. Its mission statement clearly labels it as a partisan organization, which is not something in dispute. Biased or not, it makes no difference, and its stance, as a partisan organization, since that is its primary mission, merits inclusion in its article. I have no interest in either side of this dispute, but I am of the opinion that in the interest of NPOV, organizations, entities, and people which exist to push a POV should be clearly labeled as such. --Kuzaar-T-C- 18:48, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Edited some grammar and spelling issues.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.173.108.154 (talk) 01:03, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Well you can revert my self-revert if you want, I won't change it either way. —Ashley Y 18:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Honest Reporting's mission 

message: Ashley, the link you added is not about the organization Honest Reporting. Rather, it is about what the author perceives to be honest reporting in the Middle East. It seems like this is a fallacy of ambiguity; because the article is critical of "honest reporting" in Israel and the Middle East, you've associated it with the group called Honest Reporting. Its really quite misleading. It would be a good link for the wikipedia entry for "media bias", but really has no direct association with Honest Reporting. --ARoyal 09:29, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It refers to 'so-called "honest reporting" watchdogs', which is a reference to Honest Reporting. —Ashley Y 19:06, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I've added a note to the link. —Ashley Y 19:15, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Zerbisias is referring to a class of organisations, of which HR is clearly an example. The fact that Zerbisias refers to them 'so-called "honest reporting" watchdogs' strongly suggests, but does not definitively prove, that Zerbisias had Honest Reporting in mind. Noting this hardly counts as "original research", and it is enough to make the link relevant, provided that the caveat is included. —Ashley Y 09:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "clearly an example" also looks like original research to me. If you look at the article itself, it devotes exactly two sentences to discussing "so-called 'honest reporting' watchdogs". The article, which claims that "the usual websites" "smeared" a colleague of hers, is, in fact, an emotional smear itself, that adds no fact or detail on the subject or the "smears", and is mostly about an entirely different issue, a "dust-up" between Tony Burman and Norman Spector. Can you explain what it adds to the readers knowledge about Honest Reporting? I'm having a very, very difficult time seeing the value or relevance. Jayjg (talk) 14:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Honest Reporting or honest reporting 

message: I'm collecting info here; some of this may go into the article later.
* "Honest Reporting" donor list info. 13,539 names on list, average donation $56.60. That gives the organization some credibility as a grassroots organization.
* "Honest Reporting" website. Check out their keywords: <meta name="keywords" content="Honestreporting media bias against Israel middle east press coverage Israeli-Palestinian conflict mideast Palestinian media bias watchdog monitor pro-israel hasbara middle east reporting media AP Reuters bias roadmap mideast peace mid-east">
* List of pro-Israel information sources Not itself a reliable source, but a useful list of links. "Honest Reporting" is listed.
* Pro-Israel forever Israel flag-waving site (literally; full of animated waving flags) with list of "pro-Israel links".  Again, not itself a reliable source, but useful. "Honest Reporting" is listed.
* Hillel at Stanford has a list of "Advocacy and Policy" links, from the ADL to the ZOA.  "Honest Reporting" is listed.
--John Nagle 18:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The donors info looks OK to me, but other items in your list seem pretty useless: the tag meta keywords is for search engines, this is not how they define themselves. A bunch of activist lists (not WP:RS, as you have noted) do not mean much. Hey, maybe I should add it to my favorite Trekkie blog... ←Humus sapiens ну? 08:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The effect of those meta tags is that if you search for reporting "pro-Israel", "Honest Reporting" comes up at the top of a Google search.  If you search for reporting Israel, you get CNN.  It's amusing, but not a big deal.  --John Nagle 16:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notes on "Honest Reporting" 

message: After much disagreement, Jayjg's last minor edit to my edit to the "Management" section is OK with me.  I think we've reached a consensus on something. --John Nagle 16:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last edits to "Management" section seem OK 

message: Edits since March 17, 2007 have made a mess of the formatting.  The references and links section is now in bad shape, and there's the text "rank distortion……….scurrilous assertions" which may be a quote, but it's not clear.  I've added a cleanup tag.
We may need to go back to  03:20, 17 March 2007 SlimVirgin to clean up the mess.  The content is roughly comparable to what it was then, but the formatting now is much worse.  Revert to there and go forward, or clean up the current mess?  --John Nagle 04:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless someone cleans up the mess within the next few days, I'm going to revert the article back to the last clean-looking version,  03:20, 17 March 2007 SlimVirgin.  --John Nagle 19:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

text: WFT is this??? All the info is gone & the page begins in mid-sentence. Do you think we're all stupid? Perhaps I wouldn't be called racist if I refer to this as ANTI-ARAB bias, rather than pro Israel bias, which is nothing new in news coverage, if you follow this sort of thing. And NO I am not a "conspiracy theorist", I just pay attention. Stop this madness!!!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.20.151 (talk) 01:23, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The formatting mess 

message: Does anyone actually discuss Honest Reporting as an example of "Hostile media effect"? If not, please avoid original research. Jayjg (talk) 22:26, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, none of the sources you have used mention Honest Reporting. Has anyone besides you argued that Honest Reporting is an example of the "Hostile Media Effect"? You have "introduced an argument, without citing a reputable source 'for that argument, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position;" in this case, that Honest Reporting is an example of that effect. Jayjg (talk) 15:31, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It is classic original research. Which of the sources you refer to state that Honest Reporting is an example of "Hostile media effect"? I need a source for that claim, and it can't be "Wikipedia editor DisHonesterporting". Jayjg (talk) 23:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Hostile media effect" 

message: WLRoss provided a citation to the South African Mail & Guardian . While it is plausible that this Mail & Guardian op-ed is a response to the criticism of honest Reporting, it does not actually refer to Honest Reporting, or the Honest Reporting criticism anywhere in the op-ed. As such, it is not a suitable reference for the claim. If this is what the section relies on, I'm afraid it will have to be removed, as original research. Canadian Monkey (talk) 02:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't shoot the messenger and read the sources. The claim was already there and all I did was find the source and add it. The claim makes no mention that G & M was targetting HR. The source, though not a critism of HR specifically, is the reply to a letter writing campaign that HR admits to instigating which makes it's inclusion relevant. I.E. The article states that HR encouraged a letter campaign to G & M and that G & M recieved a barrage of mail. Wayne (talk) 07:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I just searched for other right wing organisations who might have organised letter campaigns to find if the paragraph perhaps needed altering (or maybe even deletion) but found that many such as Camera link their readers to Honest Reporting to do it. Current wording is factual and relevant EOS. Wayne (talk) 08:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

text: As I noted. Camera direct their readers to use HR for letter writing campaigns and provide links to do so. The claim that HR intiated a letter campaign is admitted and the last sentence is simply a claim that G & M "recieved a barrage of mail". The paragraph makes no connective claim so can't be OR. Obviously they would have recieved unaffiliated mail but it is indisputable that most was the result of a campaign. No other organisation ran a campaign. The only way to dispute it to provide sources for other organisations running their own campaigns. Even so the HR campaign would still be responsible for much of the mail which would still require some mention unless you assume the campaign was a total dud which really is OR. There are many many articles that have similar cause and effect claims without proof of connectivity so why should this one be held to a different standard? Wayne (talk) 16:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The claim that HR initiated a letter campaign is well sourced. It is not a criticism of HR, though.  The claim that M&G "received a barrage of mail" is also well sourced, but again is not a criticism of HR. There is criticism in the M&G article, but that criticism is, as you wrote, "not a criticism of HR specifically". In other words, the claims that are sourced are not criticism of HR. We have a Wikipedia editor, WLRoss, who is making the deduction that since one source wrote that HR initiated a letter writing campaign, and another source wrote that M&G was critical of the "barrage of mail" it got, then based on that editor's personal research ("I just searched for other right wing organisations who might have organised letter campaigns to find if the paragraph perhaps needed altering ...but found that many such as Camera link their readers to Honest Reporting to do it...No other organisation ran a campaign...the HR campaign would still be responsible for much of the mail which would still require some mention unless you assume the campaign was a total dud"),it must be that the unspecific criticism in the M&G article is directed at HR. I don't disagree with you that this conclusion, based on your personal research, is plausible - but unless you can source the claim to some reliable source 3rd party that actually makes that deduction, it is your original research, which can't be included. The fact that other articles may have similar original research is not a license to add original research to this article. You should know better than to invoke the "two wrongs make a right" argument. Feel free to remove such original research in other articles when you come across it, and if you point it out to me, I might even help you. Canadian Monkey (talk) 04:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I still can't work out what is OR. But that is beside the point because I found a newsletter to Honest reporting subscribers claiming the "barrage of mail" was from them and it also specifically mentions that the "Contrition not enough" article was in response to mail from HR subscribers. I also tracked down a copy of the emails that G&M received (G&M did not archive them) but I'd rather not add that link as they are pretty immature and racist (and also contain the names and addresses of the senders). I'll give you time to respond before reverting. Wayne (talk) 16:47, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The original research is the work you did to tie together one part of the claim (HR urged its readers to complain about the M&G article), with another part of the claim (M&G criticized the writers of the barrage of letters it received) in order to form the conclusion that "M&G criticized HR" - which is not sourced to any single reliable source. Your original research consisted, among other things, of looking at other possible organized letter-writng campaigns and allegedly finding none, of tracking down actual copies of the letters sent to the MG in order to prove that they came from HR, and the deduction that if HR urged it readers to complain, and if M&G subsequently was critical of compliant it got, that M&G was critical of HR. That is original research. You must find a relaible source that explicitly says "M&G criticized HR" if you want to include it in the article. Canadian Monkey (talk)  —Preceding comment was added at 03:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

text: This is all explained here:
"Material can often be put together in a way that constitutes original research even if its individual elements have been published by reliable sources. Synthesizing material occurs when an editor tries to demonstrate the validity of his or her own conclusions by citing sources that when put together serve to advance the editor's position. If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or if the sources cited are not directly related to the subject of the article, then the editor is engaged in original research.." Canadian Monkey (talk) 03:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed the bad link to the Guardian.  The text there reads "The complaints were part of a lobby started by Honest Reporting, an organisation that monitors media coverage of events in the Middle East for anti-Israel bias. It seems that most of the complainants accessed the video from the front page of Honest Reporting's website, rather than from the Guardian's site. Honest Reporting objected to the fact that there were no Israeli sources in the video and asked people to write to me.".  --John Nagle (talk) 04:39, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, this is not criticism of HR. If you read the link, you'll see it acknowledges that the segment that HR complain about as one-sided is indeed one-sided, and blames it on an "editing error". Canadian Monkey (talk) 02:19, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree. Canadian Monkey (talk) 04:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism section

message: The section was criticism of an article based solely on HonestReporting.  It doesn't seem to have any controversial aspects, just rather an extension of the media criticism that HonestReporting does.  I have removed this section, if people want to read the criticism that HonestReporting engages in, then they should visit the site.  There is no need to randomly reproduce bits of it on this page, especially when such reproduction appears to violate BLP.  --John Bahrain (talk) 21:09, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you should put it back - it was written very carefully to demonstrate how HonestReporting goes up against reporters such as Johann Hari, who is equally hailed and reviled by both Islamicists and by defenders of Israel. This was only one incident and one reporter, but it was a fair snapshot of the kind of thing that HR were presumably set up to do (there are actually 9 articles at HR slamming Johann Hari, but I'm fairly sure that the taster presented was a representative sample). PRtalk 22:24, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it should be put back. Why not do it yourself? As it stands this article makes it seem like there's nothing controversial at all about HonestReporting, when nothing could be further from the truth. 75.76.213.106 (talk) 04:05, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed "Controversy" section 

message: Please vote here on whether you think this article does or does not meet the Wikipedia notability guidelines, and whether to keep or delete the article. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 04:16, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's listed now, but its going to be kept, thus no worries.  --John Bahrain (talk) 15:46, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

text: It's best to just let it go through the process.  Wikipedia works best if everyone is patient and calm and allows for the bureaucratic process to go its course.  The result is fairly assured in this case, so just relax.  --John Bahrain (talk) 19:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed deletion 

message: I'm not sure of the purpose of the Management section.  The individuals are not notable in themselves and most people reading the article most likely will not care.  I have removed them.  I have kept some of the information from that section but repurposed it as a "History" section that details how HonestReporting came about.  I think that we can add more to the History section, including information of key personal who joined or other major notable events, or cross-organization collaborations.  --John Bahrain (talk) 19:09, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not really a good reason for removing sourced material.  Information about an organization's officers is usually relevant, and is especially so for partisan organizations. --John Nagle (talk) 02:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The information on the "Management" of HR is highly relevant in this case and needs putting back in order not to decieve the reader. It is fairly unlikely that a lobbyist for AIPAC and a grassroots organizer for American Friends of Magen David Adom are in the business of "honesty" the way readers (or indeed editors) of WP recognise it. The one part that isn't necessary or desireable is reference to a "former reporter for the Baltimore Jewish Times". It is decidedly questionable to link a community newspaper with unpleasant statements seen at HR such as "Saeb Erekat - a practiced liar if ever there was one". PRtalk 14:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed "Management" section 

message: Since Honest Reporting Canada and HonestReporting are the same organization, but the former is the Canada branch while the latter is the U.S. branch, it does not make sense to have two separate articles. Furthermore, since both organizations have the same general mission, having two separate articles needlessly replicates large volumes of information which is common to both. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 18:36, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. — eon, 22:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

text: I also agree.  I suggested this myself about a week ago: . --John Bahrain (talk) 23:39, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Merge might be a good idea. I am trying to implement some self mission statements and history, more paraphrasing and neutralizing is required. Kasaalan (talk) 17:02, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge ("Honest Reporting Canada" into "HonestReporting") 

message: Canadian Monkey has been identified as one of a series of sock-puppets of banned sock-master Isarig. Isarig's past contributions can be found here: . See Community Sanctions Noticeboard (or CSN) Isarig, CSN consensus, CSN Resolution, CSN Isarig, ANI: Isarig violating terms of mentorship for community concerns about the operation of this account. The extensive discussions there culminated in an Israel/Palestine topic ban on Isarig's account on the 30th August 2007. 
In December 2007, Isarig (who had continued to edit quite properly outside the I/P topic) confessed to operating the sock-puppets Teens! and Clintonesque and was granted the right to vanish according to this deletion log and Isarig is no longer with us, wherein it is said "The user have been explained not to come back editing again as per WP:RTV, a thing they agreed to."
According to the note at sockpuppets of Nocal100 other sock-puppets operated by Isarig include NoCal100, AbetterWay, LoverOfTheRussianQueen, Millmoss, Hadashot Livkarim, Fistook, Oh, Those Russians!, and Mr. Hicks The III. Some of these accounts have been repeatedly subject to accusations of editwarring and disruptive editting. 
As regards current efforts to improve HonestReporting, this notification may lead editors to examine this diff and this diff for information on "criticism" that may have been removed in a POV effort to introduce distortions to the encyclopedia. 86.159.67.125 (talk) 09:16, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canadian Monkey was a sock 

message: Honest Reporting is a pro-Israel organisation per RS. This information with cited RS should not be deleted from the article. Saying that an organisation is pro-Israel is different from saying that it "monitors the media for what it perceives as bias against Israel."
A neutral organisation could monitor what it perceives as bias against Israel. Honest Reporting is not neutral, it is pro-Israel per RS. This is an important distinction because what a neutral organisation "perceives as bias" and what a pro-Israel orgainisation "perceives as bias" are two different things. Dlv999 (talk) 12:46, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That's your own conclusion, and cannot be in the article as such. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 16:47, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The organisation is "pro-Israel" per RS. That is all I am seeking to add. Nothing more, nothing less. If anyone wants to stop reliably sourced information from appearing in the article they must offer a very strong argument for doing so. Dlv999 (talk) 17:20, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pro-Israel organisation. 

message: Text just reverted after I removed most of it:"After being criticized by HonestReporting for an article published by The Independent, author Robert Fisk wrote in the Independent that some of their readers sent him hate-mail, after he claimed that Israel used radioactive weapons in Lebanon, a claim later debunked by unanimous agreement at an IAEA conference. HonestReporting has in turn accused The Independent of intentionally omitting a part of their report."
The very smallest problem with this is the double use of "after" in the first sentence.  But much worse is the second one "after he claimed that Israel used radioactive weapons in Lebanon", which is simply false since Fisk wrote the article about HR in 2001 while the uranium incident was in 2006. Unsurprisingly, there is no mention of uranium in Fisk's article.  This incorrect tying of Fisk's article to something 5 years later is then "supported" by a Daily Star article that does not mention either Fisk or Honest Reporting and is thus a perfect example of synthesis. This leaves nothing for the last sentence to refer to.  Zerotalk 05:10, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I looked at the sources and I agree with Zero. Dlv999 (talk) 12:46, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  nonsense paragraph 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Is "Successes" really an objective heading for a list of the organization's activities? Shouldn't it be "Campaigns" or something like that?
Also it seems that the norm, when relevant, is to have a "Criticism and controversies" heading. Pr4xer0 (talk) 21:30, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section headings 

message: In re: this edit, the source states: "The executive director of Israeli media advocacy group HonestReporting said on Friday ...", . -- K.e.coffman (talk) 05:54, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits