Talk:Character changes during Infinite Crisis

message: There are three levels of confirmation, as I see it:  
*Editorial confirmation.  If Dan Didio says in an interview "By the way, Judomaster died when Bane broke his back," is that sufficient confirmation?
*In-story confirmation.  If Superman flies up to Judomaster after Bane broke his back and says "Judomaster is dead!" is that sufficient confirmation?
*Other-canon confirmation.  If Action Comics #594963 has a line where Superman says "Remember when Bane killed Judomaster?" is that sufficient confirmation?
I would say that they all count.  The only exception I would consider is conflicting stories.  If Superman says "Judomaster is dead!" and Dan Didio says "Judomaster is just taking a nap", I would expect him to be considered unconfirmed (or something similar).  Editorial confirmation just means to me that they want to make sure you inferred what they expected you to infer.  In the comics medium, sometimes the reader doesn't make the connection that he or she is intended to.  Technically, we shouldn't list Alexander Luthor as dead if we go by the "Only dead if there's a body" rule of thumb.  The DC Comics website says he is dead, however, so it isn't unreasonable to consider that confirmed.  Especially for this page, I think in-story confirmation is the easiest to all agree on.  As for other-canon confirmation, I would judge it on a case-by-case basis, since not every writer or editor is 100% in synch with what other writers and editors are doing.  With the case of 52 and Infinite Crisis, though, I think the case of Zauriel is very easy to reconcile.  In such an editor-heavy series of stories, which again take place within 24 hours of each other, I think the reader is meant to infer that Zauriel did not die in Infinite Crisis.  
Thoughts about the confirmation issue? --Rocketgoat 17:41, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But is it clear that this character died? What does "confirmed" mean, if it can't include confirmation a year later. By the way, few characters unconfirmed dead will turn out to be dead, unless replaced by another character using the same name. --Chris Griswold 01:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What counts as confirmation? 

message: Why are characters with normal names alphabetized by their first name? --Chris Griswold 01:28, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I noticed this earlier today, and talk page'd Ace regarding it. Wait for his reply before reverting. I'm more down with the first name alhpabetizing in comics because when geek-speaking in the shop or with friends, it's normal to fullname people instead of just last name them, esp. given the sheer number of characters where both names are first names... wayne, scott, allen, jordan, or where multiple characters have the same surname... crispus, barry, and bart allen, for example. ThuranX 05:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I'd like to apologize to both of you for my being an idiot, and to invite you to see ThuranX's page for the reasons behind my rudeness and edits. Now, I'd like to say that also I prefer first name alphabetizing. Not only are there many civilian names in other lists besides New Or Changed which which take into account the first name, it's also more practical when you consider that since we're mixing civilian identities with superhero names. It kinda looks akward the other way, it's hard to perceive there is any organization. That's why I reacted how I did. I didn't understand there still was an attempt to alphabetize. --Ace ETP 21:46, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alphabetization 

message: Re: "...Dan DiDio said the Linda Danvers Supergirl was to be removed from continuity, only for Geoff Johns to say later that that was not at all among the many things to be considered changed by Superboy-Prime's punches or the creation of New Earth..." --Ace ETP 21:46, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Where did you get that from? Al I have seen is Didio saying specificaly Matrix is gone, not Linda Danvers.--Chris Griswold 16:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but DiDio answered "The Matrix Supergirl no longer exists" when asked specifically about Linda Danvers, so I'm betting he considers them to be the same character (even if they aren't, Linda Danvers becoming Supergirl WITHOUT Matrix would be unexplainable). Go to Linda Danvers' (or was it Matrix's?) article for a link to a message board with the Geoff Johns comment in question. By the way, Wryspy, the Marvel reference (a sly jab, actually) can be found when Alex takes the Super-Sons Earth and the Cathy Lee Crosby Wonder Woman Earth and mixes them together. Their combined numbers add up to 616, and the result is that Earth where the Batman and Superman families are seen feuding. A CIVIL WAR among its two greatest heroes, get it? The whole thing being meant to be a parody is further reinforced by the following facts: it was the only Earth not to appear numbered (perhaps due to the sake of the making the joke less obvious), the possibility of it being a joke was mentioned in Newsarama conversations where people who work at DC participated without any of them outright saying that it wasn't meant to be one, and the Cathy Lee Crosby Wonder Woman Earth seems to be the only one designated with a random number, as if it had only been included so they could have some other Earth add up to 616. All other Earths not previously numbered were designated after the number of the issue they first appeared in (e.g.: the original Legion first appeared in Adventure 247, I believe). --Ace ETP 21:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editorial confirmation revisited 

message: From the edits, it looks like several people do not think the twins have been named. I am inclined to agree with them. Can someone please cite where these new characters have been given names? --Chris Griswold 08:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They were named in The Kingdom. Before you start telling me anything from the Kingdom Come continuity isn't canonical, remember that The Kingdom was a spin-off, and does not take place in the same continuity as Kingdom Come (in fact, Iris West II dies as Kid Flash in Kingdom Come, while she shows up alive and well in The Kingdom as both Kid Flash and The Flash), since it was more correctly an exploration of possible futures and divergent timelines of the DCU. In fact, it seemed like we were supposed to interpret that most events happening in those tie-ins such as The Kingdom: Kid Flash and The Kingdom: Offspring were destined to happen in the future of the mainstream DCU, and that any similarity between the stars of those tie-ins and characters from Kingdom Come was a non-issue. This is supported by the fact that it was stated in Kingdom Come that Kid Flash's mother was Angela Margolin (a Keystone City policewoman), but it was Linda Park in The Kingdom, indicating that the two Irises were different characters. And with the appearance of Offspring and Zatara in Teen Titans #34, all Kingdom Titans seemed to have consolidated their place in the new DCUA. Plastic Man's son had been introduced years ago in JLA, perhaps before The Kingdom was published, and there is virtually nothing indicating that Zatanna couldn't have borne a son by John Constantine who we haven't heard off until now. --Ace ETP 19:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is still a potential future, not a definitive one. Nothing is truly destined until it's written in real-time comic continuity. Most of your evidence would seem to be your interpretation. CovenantD 19:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to reluctantly agree with Covenant here. (not out of mistrust of Covenant, of course...) I too, 'know' that these are the characters as seen in Kingdom, but I know that with out a plain faced tie between Wally and the names, it can't happen, and I don't think we got their names in the last issues. As to the other children of heroes, I don't think we've seen anything yet tying the younger O'Brien, (Jason?Justin?) to Offspring directly, nor the young Zatara to Zatanna. I may be wrong on the last of these, but we'll see. In the meantime, I'd concur that referring to them as 'The West Twins' is fine.ThuranX 02:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Additionally, Hypertime no longer exists, and I can't remember a mention of Planet Krypton since then. And despite moves in that direction for the past ten years, DC says that Kingdom Come (and I would assume The Kingdom) is no longer the DC Universe's future. --Chris Griswold 05:22, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree. Naming them in noncanonical alternate futures doesn't count. Wryspy 06:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The West Twins 

message: These keep getting put on and taken off the Unconfirmed deaths list. Please give reasons you believe these to be dead characters. We just don't tend to assume things on Wikipedia, and it looks to me like this is what we're doing. Why do we think these characters are dead? --Chris Griswold 08:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If Byte and Major Disaster belong under Unconfirmed Deaths, then why are they NOT there right now? I think in order to solve this problems in which we disagree about the ultimate fate of a character or someone doesn't see where their supposed death was made clear, we need to start encouraging editors to move them to Unconfirmed or Missing before removing them completely. And if it was Major Disaster who had his neck snapped by Superboy-Prime, then he is most certainly dead. The only reason he was "Unconfirmed" is because there is some debate as to if it was him or Boss Moxie the man who Superboy killed. --Ace ETP 19:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: FWIW, everyone at the comic shop I frequent concurs that it's Major Disaster, and not Boss Moxie. Consider the following: Boss Moxie? No powers, no threat to Superboy-Prime. Major Disaster? JLA level unpredictable powers, Threat to Sb-P. Boss Moxie? mustache. Victim of necksnapping? no 'stache. Costume? it's Major Disaster's highcollar leather overcoat, not Boss Moxie's cheap polyester suit. While DC did dig up lots of obscure characters, it's far more likely that they'd show a powerhouse like MD dying as a hero, given his long redemption storyline, than Boss Moxie, who I cannot ever imagine being written as the kind who'd run into a battle against ANY Superboy/man without wepaons and an intergang squad. It's Major Disaster, and anyone who REALLY thinks it's Boss Moxie needs to really sit down and compare the two and think it through. After it happened, there was a convo at the shop regarding our collective shock at his apparent death, since he was a really cool secondary leaguer to many of us. Since most of what i'm saying is probably going to be construed by the Moxie supporter(s) as Original Research, I'll leave it to someone else to make the edit to replace Major Disaster.ThuranX 02:46, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, you're not with me. I don't have an opinion on the matter. I don't remember the incident, and I don't have the comic in front of me. --Chris Griswold 05:25, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I seem to recall that somebody, at some point, referenced an interview (with Didio?) that explicitly stated it was Moxie. I don't see it now, and I don't care enough to go find it, but it should be considered before stating anything to the contrary. CovenantD 14:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: OK, I do have an opinion. I want to read more Major Disaster comics. --Chris Griswold 16:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Given that we're mostly just going around and around here about the nature of substantiated claims, and yet no one's given any evidence that it's Moxie, not Disaster, I'm readding Disaster, and will protect his prescence on the page until contrary evidence is found, be it the DiDio statement, a script page stating 'Superboy-Prime snaps Moxie's neck while shouting his craziness" or something else conclusive.ThuranX 02:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: By "should be considered" I meant that those interested in accuracy rather than just putting in opinions might want to do some research. I thought accuracy was supposed to be a higher consideration than Original Research. CovenantD 14:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is ridiculous. If YOU think WE are wrong, then YOU do the work. We have doen a great deal here to contribute positively to this article, and whiel I think you MEAN well, your attitude that WE should take your clue and do the work is unfair. We did some work ,if you think w'ere wrong, prove us wrong. Find the DiDio interview, or a script, or someone crying over 'Da death o' Boss moxie by dat pug ugly superkid'. But don't say "Oh, i read it somewhere' and leave it at that.ThuranX 20:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm looking. I'm curious, though, what research you did besides "a convo at the shop." CovenantD 21:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't be a dick, Covenant. That's what you're doing. PROVE it's Moxie or shut up. I prefaced my statement with 'FWIW, which, clearly, you do not know means "FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH". As to the research I DID do, I dug out the Obsidian Age arc and other JLA appearances of Major Disaster in his big Jacket, I dug out the Justice League Elite mini, which was luckily in the same box, and I flipped through a few and compared the appearances. Now go ahead and shout how my contributions should be considered 'Original Research' and dismiss them, you crybaby.ThuranX 22:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Doesn't it seem inconsistent for someone who says "I don't care enough to go find it, but it should be considered" to criticize others on the issue of research? If you want this thing you "seem to recall" to be considered, that obligates you, Covenant, not the rest of us, to find your own source. Wryspy 02:25, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad to see your comment on the article, regarding 'footnoting' Moxie. It's not worth it. all we've got is one 'I think I MIGHT have heard something somewhere' against a large group who all have consensus that it's MD. Shame... I was thinking about it, and I can see why a character like that might be written out. He's a huge wild card. I can see the editors realizing that Major Disaster could easily be misused as a Deus Ex Machina solution to a plot they've written themselves into a corner with. But I liked his 'mean, bitter, not so brilliant' persona, and I'm hoping that they'll bring him back without having to consult Dudley Soames for fashion tips.ThuranX 03:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text:  We could still see something of his personality if it turns out he was left quadriplegic. That could be interesting. Wryspy 03:53, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Or he could just show up again. I mean, New Earth is a reset button. --Chris Griswold 10:41, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Major Disaster met his fate, whatever it was, AFTER the reset. However, you have an interesting point. As shown by the returns of the Ventriloquist, Lynx, and Batwoman, anybody who was dead before that reset had a chance to be brought back. Logically, this even applies to characters who died during I.C. (prior to the emergence of New Earth). Doczilla 08:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Can someone at least tell me where this happens so I can see for myself? (page, panel)?--Chris Griswold 09:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you still care, it's in one of the first panels after Superboy-Prime's arrival in Metropolis. I'm just posting to say that, after re-reading Infinite Crisis #7, I think I may have found strong evidence for the real identity of the man who got his neck snapped by Superboy-Prime being Major Disaster. In the last panel of one of the pages covering the conflict at Metropolis, we see Solomon Grundy and the Blood Pack being fried with the heat vision of an off-screen character who states he can't tell the heroes and the villains apart. In the first panel of the next page, we see that the person who said that was Superboy-Prime. In that very same panel, we see "Major Moxie" lying on the ground, on the receiving end of a heat vision beam coming down from an unseen opponent. In the next panel, we see Superboy-Prime breaking Major Moxie's neck, and looking up with his own heat vision to kill Major Moxie's previously unseen opponent, who is revealed as Baron Blitzkrieg. This proves "Major Moxie" was actually Major Disaster and not Boss Moxie, since Boss Moxie and the Baron would have no reason to fight, since they are both Society members. On the other hand, there's some logic for a reluctant JLAer like Major Disaster fighting on the side of the heroes, despite having been a villain in the past. --Ace ETP 22:02, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What issue/page? --Chris Griswold 03:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Issue: Infinite Crisis # 7. Page: ...hell, comic book pages haven't been numbered in years. I guess most people would consider it to be page 5. Skip the introduction with Superboy's corpse at the Arctic, and then skip the two-page Battle of Metropolis spread with the red background. Lastly, skip the page that begins with Bane breaking Judomaster's back and ends with an unseen Superboy-Prime frying Solomon Grundy and the Blood Pack, and there you will see it, page 5, featuring the deaths of Major Disaster, Baron Blitzkrieg, and a moment later, Charaxes. --Ace ETP 22:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (For clarity, it's on page 6 counting each page in, page 5 if you don't count that ad on page 5.ThuranX 01:22, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Byte and Major Disaster 

message: Scrolling to the bottom of this page is taking longer now. We should have archived this discussion a few weeks ago. I vote we archive it now and start a most fresh page, copying the West Twins and Byte/Major Disaster stuff to the top of the new discussion page because that seems to be the main thing to debate at the moment. Wryspy 06:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  I left in things from May since we're still having discussions about some of them. -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 11:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Need to archive

message: Luthor, like real world presidents, relinquished control and entrusted his holdings. He gave up Lexcorp to Talia Head (Ra's Al Ghul's daughter), upon election. After impeachment, he was seen in the sewers in that suit promising a 'crisis'.ThuranX 03:12, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What's the question? --Chris Griswold 10:41, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was in the history page for the main article.ThuranX 17:15, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Luthor CEO question 

message: As I understood it, the consensus was not to report information gained through OYL or 52, not just that we wouldn't report changes that come up later. Unconfirmed deaths at the end of IC#7 were supposed to remain in the Unconfirmed deaths section because that was their in-story status at the end of IC, regardless of whether the individual characters were later confirmed dead or alive. The statement in the article to that effect seems clear. Therefore, I'm a little confused about some of the editing disputes that have gone on as OYL/52 info has come in. I just want to get this right. If I know what rules we're playing by, I'll play them. I don't to add things the consensus doesn't want, nor remove things the consensus is to keep. I want to help protect the article's integrity as its contributors have shaped it. Wryspy 06:46, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure I agree with everything you just said. Didn't we remove Zauriel after 52: Week One came out because we all agreed the reader was not meant to interpret he had died in IC #7?. By the way, I'm mostly posting to apologise for those strange copy/pastes that seemed to have been done under my username. I swear I have no memory of doing that in those edits and would never vandalize this page. I don't know what happened. I remember copy/pasting a sentence from one place to another in my last edit (a sentence which doesn't even seem to appear exactly as I remember leaving it), so I might have accidentally copy/pasted those other things too, but it just seems so strange that I wouldn't notice it...Is it possible in any way that some person vandalized the page in some way that would allow him to fool the history page? --Ace ETP 22:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have read elsewhere that this is a bug in the software. I know it happened to , too. He accidentally blanked the Fantastic Four page a couple times. --Chris Griswold 05:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  OYL/52 information 

message: Given the returns of some characters who had been listed in the Deaths column, people might want to go back and reread the stories of the "deaths" to see if any others should have been listed as Unconfirmed. Doczilla 03:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Might be a good idea, but let's make sure that people aren't changing a death from confirmed in IC to unconfirmed based on a re-appearance of the costume or appearance one year later, or using a change to ease into a greater change later, like the whole Major Disater/Boss Moxie thing weeks back. ThuranX 03:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, specially concerning Pariah, who should be moved to Unconfirmed Deaths. It doesn't matter if Geoff Johns said he was no longer omnipotent after the original Crisis, since Post-Crisis events such as War of the Gods depicted him as omnipotent. In recent times, DC fans have shown a tendency to believe there has been an intentional retcon (usually attributting it to Superboy-Prime wall-punching) everytime some writer fails to do reasearch and committs a continuity goof that's likely to be ignored in future stories. --Ace ETP 21:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unconfirmed deaths revisited 

message: Weren't Hawk and Dove depowered after the Spectre killed their hosts? I didn't see any mention of them in the "new or changed characters" section. I'm not sure about this so I'll leave it to someone else to confirm this. --Atlan 17:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They appeared using their powers in the Villains United Special, which takes place after that. They also had a cameo in Teen Titans #34. As you mentioned, Holly and Dawn were seen in the Day of Vengeance special stating they felt their hosts die, but we didn't see the Spectre actually killing T'Charr and Terataya. We only saw him summoning them, with the scene shifting to Hawk and Dove being temporarily turned back into Holly and Dawn immediately after, I believe. In any case, T'Charr and Terataya have died before, only to come back, or sometimes even continue to lend their powers to Hawk and Dove after death. --Ace ETP 21:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hawk and Dove? 

message: Does this page, which is basically a set of tightly related lists, really need images? There's not much in the way of deep text to need illustrations, and the images would be far better suited to the pages of the characters. (Maxwell Lord and Superboy, respectively, I'd think.) I think that as a list, the addition of images here would be gratuitous and set a bad precendent for these sorts of lists. Thoughts and opinions from others? ThuranX 03:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, this article does not need images. Lists need to be kept simple and to the point. Doczilla 07:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, an article such as this one doesn't need images. Also, both scans User:DrBat put up depicted deaths, only one of the several different types of character changes this article covers. This page need to be merged with the Continuity Changes article to form a single "Consequences of Infinite Crisis" article (only after the Continuity Changes page receives a complete overhaul, though), increasing the resemblance to other Wikipedia "long list" articles (to which editors rarely upload images in their edits). --Ace ETP 22:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

text: There is no reason to merge this with the Continuity Changes article. 1. They are two different issues. 2. There are many other kinds of consequences of Infinite Crisis (e.g., effect on the publishing industry) that will not lend themselves to lists. Also, these two articles have each been broken down into sublists with explanations of different types that will not blend well together. Wryspy 03:01, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that there should be no merge. let's move any more debate about that to its own page section, and keep this about the images? I think we've got enough consensus to remove the images. ThuranX 15:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  pictures? 

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