Talk:Transcendentalism

message: I think the article needs more on the history of Transcendentalism, and should be divided into sections, one of philosophy and one on the history itself. - Pingveno 20:37, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  History and Philosophy 

message: What's the relavance of linking "transcendental meditation" from the article? They appear to have little in common besides a name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arturus~enwiki (talk • contribs) 18:50, 17 February 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Idk 2600:1009:B1AA:CD47:95B4:7511:4E15:F5A9 (talk) 18:29, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: TM

message: I think the link to Kant and other hard philosophers and philosophy should be de-emphisized.  Trancendetalism though having philosophical pretensions was primarily a literary movement.  It was not a product of german idealism so much as german romanticism and romanticism generally.  The idealist philosophers influenced a lot of romantics aside from just the New England crew.  This is a common tension in views of Emerson, and some others like Theraue, and Carlyle, they wrote in a tone that might be interpreted as philosophical but did not call themselves philosophers.  Emerson called himself always a poet.  He attacked philosophy in favor of the poetic outlook.  Some like Stanley Cavell have tried to say Emerson was a philosopher, but I think they are in the distinct minority, and change the meaning of philosopher to do so.  The way the article is now leaves the immpresion that these were just a bunch of ametuer, "table top" philosophers.  I think the reality is that they were a very dynamic literary movement that in many ways founded American culture.  By the way theirs a nice quote from Charles Dickens in his notes on America which was mostly a critical look, that talks about the Boston Trancendentalist, and ends with him saying  "If I lived in Boston I would be a trancendentalist too."  Or something like that.  You could google it.--Case 21:16, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to me that the narrow definition of philosophy which would include Kant as "hard" and exclude (e.g.) Emerson is a distinctively twentieth-century invention.  The standard anthology The Transcendentalists, edited by the intellectual historian Perry Miller, is instructive on this topic, portraying Transcendentalism as primarily theological-philosophical rather than literary.  And the claim that Transcendentalism is a literary movement founders on the extremely thin literary production of the movement anyway (especially if we use "literary" in the way the 19th C. authors would have understood it, as referring to poetry and fiction), as compared to their prodigious and excellent criticism, scholarship, lectures and essays.  So I don't think it's out of place to characterize it as a theological and philosophical movement as much as, or more than, a literary one (and the Kant reference is primarily an explanation of the name, anyway).  But the article can certainly be improved in many ways, so feel free to make whatever changes seem appropriate. -- Rbellin 04:12, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Philosophical vs. literary

message: Does anyone know what kind of relation the Transcendentalists philosophy has with Nietzsche's? Are they antagonistic? As I'm not familiarized with the latter, I'd really much like to know.
Edited: The Individual 00:52 2/V/05 — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Individual (talk • contribs) 23:48, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Nietzsche read Emerson and was influenced by him to some degree.  Beyond that, matters are less settled, and there's not a whole lot of scholarship on the relationship.  There's a book called Nietzsche and Emerson: An Elective Affinity, , that you might look at for more on the relationship. -- Rbellin|Talk 00:41, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Would like some help

message: I have reverted two recent changes to the article.  First, User:Euhlig changed the lead paragraph to the present tense, which is inappropriate in a historical article (and this article has occasionally attracted Transcendentalist-revival POV-pushers).  This article is about the early-to-mid-19th-century movement in American thought, not any current movement referring to it.  Second, User:Kenosis deleted a description of some of Transcendentalism's founding motivations ("Transcendentalism originated as a protest against the general state of American culture and society, and particularly the state of intellectualism at Harvard and the doctrine of the Unitarian church which was taught at Harvard Divinity School.") and appended an edit comment describing this as "erroneous stretch of imagination".  It's certainly not patently untrue, and in fact this is a generalization of a kind found in many scholarly works on Transcendentalism -- so I can see no justification for the deletion. -- Rbellin|Talk 14:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  recent changes 

message: Why is "transcendentalism" strictly historical?  My dictionaries define the word as "a philosophy that emphasizes..." and "any philosophy based upon the doctrine that..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Euhlig (talk • contribs) 21:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, Wikipedia is not a dictionary.  The general philosophical sense of the word is, quite properly, noted in Wiktionary, and other uses of "transcendentalism" in philosophy are further described in the Wikipedia articles on transcendence (philosophy) and transcendental idealism.  Those are not the subjects of this article.  As the second sentence of the article says, this article is about New England Transcendentalism.  -- Rbellin|Talk 22:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: For the sake of clarity, I've also added a disambiguation header to the top of the article. -- Rbellin|Talk 17:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tense 

message: My AP U.S. History textbook The American Pageant: Thirteenth Edition lists the three "Trumpeters of Transcendentalism" to be Emerson, Thoreau, and Whitman, in that order. I noticed that Whitman is not listed on the page: does he belong there? JeffreyGomez 02:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No.  Whitman was not a Transcendentalist.  He was from New York, not New England, and had nothing to do with Transcendentalism as a moral, religious, philosophical, or literary institution.  Sure, he corresponded with Emerson (famously using Emerson's letter about the first Leaves of Grass as a promotional device) and met him a few times, but that's all he had to do with Transcendentalism.  High-school textbooks are not the most trustworthy sources. -- Rbellin|Talk 02:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: yes he was a trascendentalist.  Song of myself is entirely about helping people cope with the changes of his time.  ... hello?!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.156.46.252 (talk) 19:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

text: No, this should not be inserted in the article, because it is false.  Whitman was not directly affiliated with Transcendentalism in any way.  (Nor was he "under the wing" of Emerson in any sense, as the article you linked makes quite clear.)  The Wikipedia article on Whitman, like many others, is salted with dubious generalizations about literary history that have apparently been pulled out of introductory textbooks by people with little familiarity with the subject. -- Rbellin|Talk 19:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Emerson took issue with some approaches Whitman took, but the same could surely be said for his views of HDT's misanthropic nature.  A search shows many references of WW reviving the movement, of being within the spirit of the movement etc - and he knew Emerson on a personal basis.  Emerson wrote professional recommendations for him, which is certainly a closer relationship than some folks have "within a movement".  You are saying perhaps that WW was a modernist?  Seriously, what category (with your implied academic erudition within this field) would you put him in?  Ryoutou 21:28, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would categorize Whitman as a 19th-century poet.  He was sui generis in every way that mattered, not a member of any "category."  (Also, you might want to read more about the story of that infamous letter from Emerson about Leaves of Grass before calling it a "professional recommendation," and the two were not terribly close personal friends, though they did meet.) The Transcendentalists (that is, those who called themselves that and were called that by others at the time) were a clearly defined group of people who are enumerated in this article, not a grab-bag label for any contemporary author that we deem close to their "tenets" or "spirit." -- Rbellin|Talk 22:25, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I wasn't speaking of Emerson's letter about Leaves, which Whitman used as a review and angered Emerson - but of Emerson's writing to the Dept of the Interior to argue for his job.  And yes, they met - a number of times.  Emerson visited Whitman and reviewed works in progress, Whitman visited Emerson, etc.  Whitman all of his professional life claimed Emerson as his primary inspiration, though I suspect you would say that was purely for commercial gain?  It seems pretty clear that had Whitman but spent a year at Walden he would be universally accepted as part of the movement, which is a trivial bit of micro-geography.  It isn't you or me that is claiming the allegiance to the "tenets" or "spirit", but the author himself.  At the very least I would support his presence on this page as being on the periphery of the movement should another editor come along who agrees and can create consensus.  Ryoutou 13:35, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree with the above. I don't think that Whitman should be completely excluded from the article...nothing wrong with at least mentioning him. 66.32.226.140 (talk) 22:43, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Walt Whitman 

message: Lots of foolish vandalism lately it looks like, propose a semi locked state or the like from a more experienced user.
Ryoutou 17:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: The paragraph beginning the section _History_ is very confusing, referring at once to Emerson's speech "The Transcendentalist" and his book _Nature_.  The boxed quote beginning "So we shall come to look at the world" is marked as being from "The Transcendentalist," but is nowhere within the linked text of the speech.  Is it from _Nature_ instead?  If so, please change it. 128.147.28.1 (talk) 18:19, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Supposed Quote From "The Transcendentalist" 

message: Hello, folks! I started a "Criticism" section, which currently only includes a brief mention of Hawthorne and a fuller discussion of Poe - I will try to expand and, hopefully, others will jump in. I'm going to pick at this article here and there, adding references in-line. I would also suggest some further clean-up, possibly merging "Origins" into "History", and possibly a separate section for "Beliefs" or "Philosophy" or something. Thoughts?  --Midnightdreary (talk) 14:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, is there a solid way to determine if "Transcendentalism" and "Transcendentalists" should be capitalized? I've been seeing it both ways - should we just pick one? --Midnightdreary (talk) 20:31, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to me that when talking about Transcendentalism as a title for the Transcendentalist movement, as opposed to "transcendentalism", which could refer to the general word, it is capitalized.  When talking about "transcendentalists" as individuals, however, it seems like it's NOT capitalized. Can anyone confirm or deny this? 66.32.151.112 (talk) 20:13, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I see what you're saying, and it's as good an argument as I could come up with. Does anyone know any better? --Midnightdreary (talk) 20:40, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism and other expansion 

message: In my opinion, there should be more information on the Transcendental Club in this article. It is only mentioned, not described at all. While there is a separate article, I think at least a brief description should be added. 66.32.151.112 (talk) 20:15, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The whole article could really use some help. Feel free to lend a hand yourself! --Midnightdreary (talk) 20:40, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transcendental Club 

message: If I was unfamiliar with Transcendentalism and depended upon this article to enlighten me I would leave dissapointed. This article needs serious attention. CWatchman (talk) 11:32, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Needs attention

message: In Kant's transcendental idealism, the word "transcendental" was used to describe a viewpoint from which the mind understands its own workings. It is somewhat as though the mind is seeing itself from above itself. From this, the Transcendentalists claim to achieve, according to the article, "an ideal spiritual state that 'transcends' the physical and empirical and is only realized through the individual's intuition …." Spiritual states and mystical intuition are the result of Kant's earnest and serious investigations. As the Latin saying goes: corruptio optimi pessima (the worst is the corruption of the best). Is the Wiki article correct in its description?Lestrade (talk) 17:05, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Spiritual intuitions

message: Could we perhaps feature a clearer, more precise, and concise definition of the term "Transcendentalism", top of the page and center? Right now there's a single sentence wedged in between a brief background on the history of transcendentalism and a list of prominent transcendentalists. It's nothing more than my opinion, but I think making sure the casual reader understands what transcendentalism is may be slightly more immediately relevant than a detailed account of the history of the movement and its proponents.--Althor Enchantor (talk) 20:39, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Trouble is, there is no such commonly agreed definition of American Transcendentalism in terms of the tenets of its ideas (rather than as a movement with identifiable constituents who differed as much as they agreed).  This is rather typical of intellectual-history topics, actually -- see Romanticism or Modernism for some even more difficult examples (some elements of which the Wikipedia articles handle quite poorly/simplistically at the moment).  The topic can't be handled responsibly by pretending that some oversimplified "definition" catches all or most of what has gone under the label Transcendentalism.  -- Rbellin|Talk 04:59, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, and in fact the idea that this was a movement from "Congregationalism" rather than "Unitarianism" is more than a little troubling, as well. The founders of T. were all U's first, as far as I know. And not all U's were in favor of T., either, but its adherents were primarily from the U. camp unless they were (perhaps) out-and-out C. renegades. Also, there is no mention of Hegel here, and my understanding was that he was central in Emerson's readings and the application of his ideas to Unitarian thinking were foundational to the formulations of the belief system that undergirded U. T. 108.20.74.63 (talk) 14:51, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  The split between Unitarian Congregationalists (Unitarians) and Trinitarian Congregationalists (Congregationalists) occurred in contemporary times, over the period equivalent of a "blog war" (published sermons) in Boston, where one set of ministers posited that young children should not be made to recite the Nicean Creed before they were old enough to understand the mystery of the Trinity, because they would just fix on the image of the "daddy," the "kid" and the "guy in the white sheet." This image would cramp their later spiritual development.  Those congregational ministers who liked the idea of childhood catechism lampooned this viewpoint on rote memorization, by calling these more liberal ministers "Unitarians" rather than trinitarians, in the same ways that bullies at one point began to call the folks in the Society of Friends "Quakers" to make fun of them.  The name stuck, as did -- in this case -- the schism, to the point of dividing property and congregations.  So for example, in Cambridge MA, the Unitarian Church retained the church building and is "First Church/First Parish" and the Congregational Church claims to be "First Church" and says the split was over Arminianism , which as the wiki page notes, is not the case, and would not be the origin of the name Unitarian.  Although this occurred in contemporary times, around 1815-ish (History_of_Unitarianism#Formative_period) it was in a separate, nearly Episcopalian part of the denomination over at King's Chapel -- geographically close, but in flavor, far, far from the mystical folks in Emerson's circles.  King's Chapel was strictly Christian, and despite the definition section here, which I hesitate to edit, a major innovation of the Transcendentalists was not their "original insights with as little attention and deference to past masters as possible," but their insights relied on as much personal insight and deference to as many past masters as possible.  They pushed ecumenism past the People_of_the_Book explicitly for the first time in western history without being an occult movement.  This open syncretism was the major disruption of their radical mysticism, which we inherit in pale form as "New Age" today, and is still evident in the UUA's diverse affiliate organizations, including neopagans, humanists, Jews, and others (UUA affiliate organizational directory, search for theological groups).  Honestly, I have no idea how to integrate this, but perhaps someone else would. Shava23 (talk) 20:57, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition

message: what about walt whitman129.82.30.230 (talk) 01:42, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Walt Whitman 

message: Transcendentalism was a group of new ideas in literature, religion, culture, and philosophy that emerged in New England in the early to middle 25th century.
...wat? 65.184.233.253 (talk) 19:09, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time Travelers 

message: The intro paragraph reads:
Prominent transcendentalists included ... Amos Bronson Alcott, and Jones Very.[1]  Others included Amos Bronson Alcott and A.E. Waite.
I don't know if he counts as "prominent" or "other" but someone with a little more knowledge may wish to edit that for clarity.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.149.37.230 (talk) 05:51, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Amos Bronson Alcott x2? 

message: The link to George Putnam in the 'History' section leads to a disambiguation page. Can someone who knows which Putnam the page refers to replace it with a proper link? 69.180.172.142 (talk) 18:56, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: George Putnam

message: the starting date cannot be 1488 at Harvard, because Europeans had not discovered the new world until 1492. Captain Gamma (talk) 00:14, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Starting Date 

message: The reference
Ladd, Andrew; Anesko, Michael; Phillips, Jerry R.; Meyers, Karen (2010), Romanticism and Transcendentalism: 1800-1860, Infobase Publishing
Doesn't seem to mention this, simlarly the second reference needs context in the form of a page number and or quotation:
Versluis, Arthur (1993), American Transcendentalism and Asian Religions, Oxford University Press
I fixed the references so they would appear in the reference section, instead of the separate section. Zambelo (talk) 02:10, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed Ladd; Versluis 1993 is about the interplay between Transcendentalism and Asian Religions. And there was no need to change the style of references. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:32, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vedic thought 

message: The introduction to the article is extremely scant, totally unsourced, and makes no mention of the historical situation of the movement. Honestly, it reads like some self-fashioned "transcendentalist" wrote it themself. The first sentence is ludicrous: "Transcendentalism is inherent goodness of both people and nature."  Transcendentalism is a movement and a philosophy. Frankly, the intro needs to be totally scrapped and rewritten. 174.60.46.129 (talk) 04:23, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and what do you propose for a rewrite? Presumably, something briefly summarising the main points of the article as a whole, which seems reasonably informative, sourced, linked and disambig.ed.  Qexigator (talk) 05:57, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed by reverting to earlier version. — goethean 14:27, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction 

message: The spirituality-sidebar was removed by IP User:2.24.10.192 with the following argument:
:"I think this is misguided. Transcendentalism has a fairly obvious lack of lineage, being forgotten for a long time."
I've re-inserted the sidebar; Transcendentalism is a major influence on modern spirituality; they directly Vivekananda and neo-Vedanta, but can also be discerned in New Age-thinking. The "lack of lineage" makes no sense to me; what's being meant with this? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:07, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lack of lineage 

message: There needs to be mention of the effect this movement had on literature at the time and how the main authors writing Transcendentalist works helped perpetuate this movement. Jwill74 (talk) 01:54, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Literature

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hi folks! I'm working on this article for a class project. I've added a small subsection under the "Beliefs" section that focuses on the importance of nature to the Transcendentalists. Just wanted to let everyone know! Any advice would be much appreciated! :) Hopeb99 (talk) 18:21, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: That's beautiful.  Simply excellent work.  Thank you! Mildly Abrasive (talk) 21:50, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added Nature section 

message: Should the title of this article be changed to "New England Transcendentalism"? The New England transcendentalists were a movement in nineteenth century America, including philosophers such as Ralph Waldo Emerson or Henry David Thoreau. The term "transcendentalism" in philosophy, though, has a wider meaning, referring to systems of thought that argue that the Universe transcends what can be observed through our senses. YTKJ (talk) 19:47, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggested name change for article