Talk:Tourette syndrome/Archive 3

message: I used to think that his full name was Gilles de la Tourette.  Then I found out that it was Georges Gilles de la Tourette.  Then I found out (in the wiki article about him) that his full name was Georges Albert Édouard Brutus Gilles de la Tourette.  
He had a very long name.  How much of it should we put into this article?  Maybe someone who speaks some French could help us.206.59.61.72 22:47, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: His name makes sense to me, but I speak other languages and am accustomed to longer names.  Think in terms of "de la."  I don't know if it matters what is on the picture caption, since his full name is specified in the text ??  Sandy 23:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I should clarify further:  for contemporary English-speaking purposes, his last name is Gilles de la Tourette, and his first name is Georges.  His full name is included in the Wikipedia article about him, but not on the Tourette syndrome article.  It could also be included in the text here, but may confuse people who aren't accustomed to longer names, as it did you ??  Sandy 17:11, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

text: With a name like that he was probably an aristocrat which usually have very long names with the distinctive de which is often the name of a village or town of which they marquis, conte or baron, I think we should include his complete name--Khalid hassani 00:07, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, not everyone who has a de in their long last name is an aristocrat <blush>, but I added it since several have raised the need.  Thanks !  Sandy 00:12, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Today yes, but not a that time in my opinion, anyway in France aristocracy has been officially abolished, those who persist calling someone marquis or baron are acting by mere folklore --Khalid hassani 22:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Should we include Dr. Tourette's full name? 

message: Returning to the issue of verifiable and reliable sources.  Because Oliver Sacks' fictionalized writings are not subject to peer review, they may need to be placed in context for a medical article.  That is, the factual basis for his descriptions of fictionalized characters should be established, particularly since not all TS professionals agree with all of his views and statements about Tourette's.  Attempting to establish that the fictional character "Carl Bennett" was based upon a real person, I included mention of Mort Doran in the following sentence:
Neurologist and writer Oliver Sacks describes a physician with severe TS, (Canadian Mort Doran, M.D., a pilot and surgeon in real life, although a pseudonym was used in the book), whose tics remit almost completely while he is performing surgery.
I found my reference, which is Morton L. Doran's bio from a TSA conference.  He has spoken at many TSA conferences, evidenced by Google Groups posts to alt.support.tourette, the newsgroup.  I don't know how to cite a conference, so I am including the information here, hoping someone will help with how to cite it.
The Tourette Syndrome Association, Inc., Connecticut Chapter
1998 Educators' Conference
Understanding and Managing Tourette Syndrome, and the Associated Disorders, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder & Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder in the Classroom.
Friday, November 6, 1998
With Keynote Speaker Morton L. Doran, MD,
Surgeon written about in
The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat by Oliver Sacks, MD
at Western Connecticut State University
Westside Campus, Danbury, CT
"This year's keynote speaker is Morton L. Doran, MD.  Dr. Doran is a practicing surgeon, professor of medicine and recreational pilot who has had Tourette Syndrome since early childhood.  He was featured in a book, The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat by Oliver Sacks, MD, a perceptive look at living successfully with neurobiological disorders.  Dr. Doran was the featured surgeon in New Yorker magazine's article about a surgeon with TS.  He is a dynamic and highly respected spokesperson for the Tourette Syndrome Association in the USA and Canada." —Preceding unsigned comment added by SandyGeorgia (talk • contribs) 16:52, 16 February 2006
:Francis, thanks for adding my sig back in after you <oops> accidentally took it out :-))  Sandy 14:05, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure it's right, but I did it.  Sandy 00:18, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Verifiable, reliable sources

message: Well, according to wikipedia, anything in which the author had been dead for more than 100 years (or any photograph of something like that) is in public domain.  I have uploaded another image of Dr. Tourette.  This is a photograph, and we can assume that Dr. Tourette is the "author" because he probably paid the photographer to take his picture, and it is impossible to know the name of the photographer.  Besides, the photographer is not necessarly the "author" just as the person who does the camera work on a movie is not necessarly the director.  It also said anything published before 1923 in the US is public domain.  I think that considering Dr. Tourette died 102 years ago, all these images are in public domain.  But maybe we should use this photograph I just uploaded, because it is not a drawing.  Frankly, I don't think they had copywrite laws in France back then, but we are pretty safe with this photo.Btar 18:34, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Btar, thanks for investigating the copyright issue and uploading the pictures.  So, it sounds like we're in the clear in either case?  Maybe we could use one picture on the TS article, and the other picture on the article about 'ole Brutus himself, allowing us to use both of your pictures?  The current picture "fits well" on the page, so maybe you can add that one to the article about GTS?  Sandy 18:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, it occured to me that the drawing would qualify as a photo of something who's author died more than 100 years ago.  I will look into the GTS article.Btar 22:43, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Btar, nice work!  I'm so glad you have an account now.  I left a comment on your old talk page, that I will move to your new talk page, here.  Can you let us know when you've had a chance to look at the External Link question (above)?  Sandy 22:57, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Another Photo, copywrite issues

message: I suffer from Tourette’s syndrome, and was wondering if any one would like to start a 'famous people' list of fellow suffers? It might be something of interest for those that have more then mild TS, to see what people in history have achieved with the disorder. I would put my self on the list because I am the CEO of a multi million dollar business, but other people like sports stars, and military veterans might also help, seeing both require high control of the tic's. --Amckern 16:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A discussion/list of recognized persons with Tourette syndrome can be found at Sociological and cultural aspects of Tourette syndrome.  I've tried to avoid using the term "sufferers" as that expresses POV.  People being added to the list should fulfill the notability criterion for Wiki. Sandy 01:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Famous People 

message: I've read elsewhere that a few TS people experience coprographia. Is this worth addressing? Ghosts&empties 02:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have a reliable source.  I've never seen one.  Sandy 03:27, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: coprographia?

message: I have TS people and my friends often tell me about something that was said on TV shows on TS.  Recently, there has been a lot of stuff in the media about miracle cures for TS involving brain surgury.  This procedure seems to be quite risky and I don't really think 99.9% of the cases of TS are bad enough to warrent brain surgury, even if this was a procedure that is eventually approved by the FDA for TS.
Montel Williams recently had a "miracle cure," and that is what people want to see, but the thing I dislike about all this is that it makes TS look like something that you need brain surgury for.  TS is not like Parkinson's, which is degeranative and fatal.
I think something should be said about this procedure, in case people see it on TV and decide too look it up.  I don't think this will be giving too much publicity to this, because it has gotten plenty of publicity.  
This is an encycylopedia article and we should assume that the peopke reading this article are mostly intelligent laymen, not doctors.  This is not the PDR.  I think we should briefly explain to the intelligent layment what the procedure is first of all.  Is this "miracle cure" the same thing as P.A.N.D.A.S. or deep brain stimulation?  Because I don't really what those two things are.  So I think it would be a good idea to briefly explain what this procedure is that keeps getting all the news attention, WHY it is dangerous and is unlikely to become widespread, and most importantly, why most cases of TS should never need such a drastic treatment as surgery of the brain.
Karmak
:What "miracle cure" procedure are you referring to?  P.A.N.D.A.S. is explained on Wikipedia and is not a procedure or a cure, and has nothing to do with Deep brain stimulation, which is also explained on Wikipedia and linked to from the Treatment of Tourette syndrome article, which also discusses deep brain stimulation.  If you are still confused, you might peruse this information on deep brain stimulation for Tourette's, to help explain what else you think should be addressed in the Treatment of Tourette syndrome article.  Sandy 19:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Miracle Cures?

message: The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and may or may not be accurate for the article in question.
*Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:MOSDATE, months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.
*Per WP:MOSNUM, there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 18mm, use 18 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 18 mm.
*Please reorder/rename the last few sections to follow guidelines at WP:GTL. 
*Please alphabetize the interlanguage links.
* article may need to undergo summary style, where a series of appropriate subpages are used. For example, if the article is United States, than an appropriate subpage would be History of the United States, such that a summary of the subpage exists on the mother article, while the subpage goes into more detail. 
*There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.   
*Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
**Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant -  “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
*As is done in WP:FOOTNOTE, for footnotes, the footnote should be located right after the punctuation mark, such that there is no space inbetween. For example, change blah blah [2]. to blah blah.[2]
*Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that the it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a. 
You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions (and the javascript checklist; see the last paragraph in the lead) for further ideas. Thanks, Andy t 21:27, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I’ve checked and corrected some of these things. However, my methods were semi-automated, too, so I cannot, in particular, guarantee the one about units of measurement. (I simply couldn’t find any.) I’m going to have to leave the rest to people who actually have a clue about the matter, though. —xyzzyn 22:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Semi-automated suggestions

message: Why add Tourette and Asperger's to a DISEASE category when people agree it is not a disease? Could we have some consistence, please? --Rdos 14:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The point of the category is not that it is a "disease", rather that it's an eponym.  I agree with your objection to the word "disease", but disagree with your methods, which amount to disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, when you've not attempted to correct the underlying problem.  If it bothers you so much that the category is misnamed, you should go through the work of getting the category renamed to Eponymous conditions or Eponymous medical conditions.  You can do that on Wikipedia:Categories for discussion.  Put in the nomination, and I'll support it. Unless you're willing to do that work, please don't disrupt Wiki just to make a point.  Sandy 14:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind, I did the work myself.  Added the articles to the Eponymous medical terms category.  Sandy 14:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eponymous DISEASES 

message: I went through this and made some changes. I removed the sentence "Probabilistic models may yield better results in finding the cause, as the autosomal dominant inheritance model has not been validated." since even as a biochemist I'm unclear as to what this means. Otherwise, an excellent and thorough article. TimVickers 20:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: GA pass

message: The second image (the one that is a totally naff collage of pics) should not be on there, it looks totally unprofessional and like a 5 year old did it in paint! Rob.derosa 04:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry it doesn't please your artistic sensibilities:  if you are able to locate a better contemporary image, that would be stupendous.  Since all of the other images are largely of centuries-old dead people, the article somehow needs to convey that Tourette's is a common condition among people that are young, old, male, female, of all races, and just like everyone else.  If you can find another image the conveys the contemporary reality of TS, it would be great.  Sandy 22:31, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Although you might find it humanizing, this image is so aspecific that it could be just as well on any other disease article. The text in the caption could easily be incorporated in the article, but I personally don't think that image has much purpose here. --WS 10:46, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not going to fret over one image, after spending eight months working on text and references:  in the long run, whether the image is included or not doesn't make a big difference.  Sandy 14:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see the image was restored:  it's silly to edit war over an image.  Three want it (myself, AOL anon, and xyzzy_n), three don't (Kasreyn, Rob.derosa and Wouterstomp):  please don't reinsert the image without a discussion on talk page to reach consensus.  Sandy 15:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

text: On the other hand, I am going to fret over the short, stubby paragraphs introduced into the writing, which has already passed several good copy edits, by the anon AOL editor, as well as the extra spaces introduced between sections.  Stubby paragraphs are always an objection on FAC.  Also, since Tony is in the midst of a thorough copy edit, including the insertion of inline comments and questions, it would be helpful if other editors would let him finish. Sandy 14:44, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The chopped paragraphs resulted in unreferenced and incorrectly referenced text:  I've now repaired it.  Sandy 16:05, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: *:Image:Gilles tourette2.gif could use better sourcing (where was this published?), but is probably fine
*:Image:Tim howard.jpg needs to be removed from the article, for failing Wikipedia:Fair use criteria
*:Image:Malraux.jpg is in danger of deletion for having no source
The last two are major issues that should be a priority to fix before a WP:FAC nomination.  Jkelly 15:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: License issues

message: I disagree with User:Wouterstomp that this photo combined with the legend beneath the photo, should be removed on the grounds that it "doesn't add anything to the article".  I say that it is a humanizing touch to a condition that is confusing and baffling, little understood.  Given that the US Dept of Health and Human services commissioned it to help defray fear and prejudice directed at those who have Tourette's.  As Sandy pointed out, otherwise there are only moldy old photos of chaps in powdered wigs hundreds of years ago.  And a cartoon brain to make a visual break in a long page, but which does not add at all to the understanding of how the brain is involved.  So unless someone comes up with something better, I say it stays.  After all, I have Tourette's and I happen to think the picture should be exactly where it is.  Talk it out here, don't just delete it.  205.188.117.73 09:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Although you might find it humanizing, this image is so aspecific that it could be just as well on any other disease article. The text in the caption could easily be incorporated in the article, but I personally don't think that image has much purpose here. --WS 10:46, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not going to fret over one image, after spending eight months working on text and references:  in the long run, whether the image is included or not doesn't make a big difference.  Sandy 14:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see the image was restored:  it's silly to edit war over an image.  Three want it (myself, AOL anon, and xyzzy_n), three don't (Kasreyn, Rob.derosa and Wouterstomp):  please don't reinsert the image without a discussion on talk page to reach consensus.  Sandy 15:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

text: On the other hand, I am going to fret over the short, stubby paragraphs introduced into the writing, which has already passed several good copy edits, by the anon AOL editor, as well as the extra spaces introduced between sections.  Stubby paragraphs are always an objection on FAC.  Also, since Tony is in the midst of a thorough copy edit, including the insertion of inline comments and questions, it would be helpful if other editors would let him finish. Sandy 14:44, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The chopped paragraphs resulted in unreferenced and incorrectly referenced text:  I've now repaired it.  Sandy 16:05, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The collage & legend 

message: I have a very debilitating manifestation of Tourettes that makes it virtually impossible for me to leave the house - due to the strong taboo attatched to my main verbal tic, which is to let out a shout of the n-word (particularly when I get anxious or stressed). Due to this being an extremely taboo racial slur I feel unable to risk causing the kind of offense that I would by going out, particularly when I could come across black people in daily life. Does anyone else have a particularly bad manifestation that makes a social life almost impossible? I read about a poor man whose tic was related to child-rape - even worse than my own, probably. The problem is that the more taboo a word or phrase is, and the earlier you pick it up, the more it feeds into the Tourettes. I hope there is one day a cure because my life is miserable. 195.93.21.129
Your life is miserable due to the non-awarness of this in public. But how but you yourself take measures. Print yourself some white shirts with a significant message on the front and back, like "tourette! sorry for the cursing". At the least you get peoples neuro circuits fired up in that they are contradicted with new experience - and start to ponder instead of immediatly categorizing you as insane, because you their brain tells them it is routine just look away, avoid, ignore. The medication out there works for some to curb the symtpoms but only to about 50% but that is already a huge step forward. And go see some psychotherapy because it is not worth wasting your life for that. Frankly however there are situations where i couldn`t tolerate verbal tics namely during lectures etc, so it is an enormous burden for anyone - but i think ....on the street, who cares. It provides some diversity. Don`t hold back but be aware that in some situations you gotta realize you have to take measures yourself. E.g. you could gag yourself if you attend a lecture or something like that. You`ll see humans are quite tolerant and caring once they realize who you are. Slicky 16:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My Tourettes 

message: I have some suggestions:
* "However, this symptom is present in fewer than 15% of people with TS" (a reference would be useful)
**The reference is in the body, not in the heading, which is only a summary of the text in the body.  Do you want references in the heading as well, even though they are given in the body?  Sandy 14:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks  Sandy 14:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the answers! What about FAC? :) NCurse  work 16:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Will consider it when editing settles down, and when I don't have pending travel:  for now, we seem to have some disagreement over one image, and I need for Tony to complete his ce in peace :-)  Sandy 16:29, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New review 

message: I will take the article temporarily out of use this morning, to address the issues above.  I will look at Tony's inline comments, review the additions needed from NCurse's comments, and repair the short, stubby paragraphs introduced by the anon AOL editor.  Then, it would be helpful if other editors would suggest changes on the talk page, until Tony is done with the copy edit, so we don't get crossed up.  Thanks, Sandy 14:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done:  it would be really really helpful if others would let Tony complete his copyedit before making other changes, which we can hopefully discuss on talk page.  Thanks!  Sandy 16:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  In use