Talk:Hinduism/Archive 2

message: Hey... I am the unknown user whose new additions/deletions have peppered much of Wikipedia Hindu-related pages recently. My id (ip) was 66.207.39.62, just for reference. Regarding the changes: First off, when we ask "What is Hinduism," Is it fair to represent it first off by caste system? It almost looks like: What is Hinduism: it is said to be a way of life and is largely defined by caste. Wrong. It is a way of life, system of six Vedic philosophies and a variety of practices. One unfortunate offshoot was a communal system created based on largely deliberate misreadings of varna-ashram concepts (that advocated social mobility). This has become caste, but is not a defining factor of Hinduism, but rather a defining factor of Hindu Society. There's a big difference. Rather, we should define it based on the broader theology and belief system and later move on to societal norms. I have addressed caste system later, but the prelude to Hinduism seems to paint it solely as caste system. Equivalent treatment of Christianity would start out with mention of its often overzealous missionary ideas that have resulted in centuries of slavery, adverse colonialism and then a quick reminder of how the desire to spread God's word was the motive force for this. For the moment, I have moved the caste system quotation to the bottom of the section "What is Hinduism," so as to allow for readers to first appraise the RELIGION itself and then perhaps learn of one of its societal ramifications.
: Next: I object strongly to this passage "While the Brahman Hindus focus mainly on Brahman, and different sects have their own particular patron (such as Krishna), most Hindus worship many Gods, largely through murtis (idols)." This is awful. FIrst of all, Brahman Hindus do not focus mainly on Brahman! What is being meant here are Brahmins. Brahmins are just priests, or of the priestly caste. That means they administer to religious rites, and this mainly follows from Vedic practices. Thus, while many can and often are monist, there are others who are pure Vaishnavs or Shaivaites, believing not in a monad principle of Brahman, but in a monotheist conception of God as Vishnu or Shiva. Second, the use of the word 'idol' to speak about murtis is really insulting and unfair: completely incorrect, in other words. Hindus view murtis as figures/images that are points of focus on God. The dictionary definition of idol includes 'object of worship,' 'false god' and a 'representative symbol without substance.' The word idol puts the weight of centuries of Christian and Muslim bias on a very powerful and symbolic Hindu practice. The word idol immediately brings to mind an idea that one worships the object as reality, and that no greater conception of divinity exists. It should not be used as a reference point for Hindu murtis. Hindus have for millenia stressed differentiating between nirguna (attributeless) and saguna (with attributes) brahman, and levels of worship of God. Never has there been an idea that the statue itself is God and God alone... it may be sacred, and especially potent, but just as God is in the murti, God is in everything. They are used as conduits for focus and meditation and love. Also, most Hindus, while worshipping many Gods, worship them as manifestations. As I have written above, while some believe in an ultimately attributeless brahman, others believe in One Shiva, or One Vishnu: all other Gods are manifestations or different sides of the same object. This is clearly not polytheist or 'idol-worshipping' and so should be clarified. The way it's painted here is that some sects are monotheist/monist but most are polytheist. This is a great misleading of uninformed or biased readers. I'll await your responses.
:: Lastly, I think it's very important to include a section on Puja, or worship. It is so fundamental and yet glossed over. This includes private altars at homes, use of murtis, and how people worship in temples. There are important uniformities but also many regional variations that are not only interesting but serve to emphasize differences in philosophy and the great diversity of Hindu thought. A page on Hinduism is crippled without it. I hope others can supply their thoughts on Puja. --LordSuryaofShropshire 17:14, Mar 25, 2004 (UTC)
I agree, with NPOV conditions. First and foremost caste must not be covered up, and must be explained from differeing POV's, but I do agree it is not necessary to include it in 'what is Hinduism', so long as we can find another way to explain how sometimes the word Hindu is used to refer to a race, and how the word originally was used to describe a certain ethnicity (those on the other side of a river). As for the murtis, you are correct, but there must also be mention of how other religions have viewed these as idols, with clear and unfavorable results. I welcome your additions and changes, be bold!. Sam Spade 18:44, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the last sentance and its points, if not those preceeding :) Sam Spade 18:48, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ideas For Major Changes 

message: As for the comparisons: when you compare the different systems of religions, using analagous ideas or trends, to explain the other, that's fine. For instance, I have mentioned that Hinduism is what is known as a "Dharma" religion, and is related to Buddhism and Jainism not only as their forebearer but also since all three are Dharma-based. They all believe in varying ideas regarding dharma, or universal harmony in consciousness and being. This RELATIONSHIP is just like that among Judaism, Christianity and Islam, which are all based on the Abrahaminic tradition of obeying the will of God under a certain lineage of teachings.
The difference between this comparison and that which you have drawn between the Hindu trinity and the Christian trinity is that using one to explain the other shows nothing but the coincidental use of the number three. Whereas the relationship of mutually connective ideas of philosophy among Dharma religions and Abrahamnic religions is similar, Christian and Hindu trilogies are entirely different.
Let me explain why - The Hindu trinity is based on a group of three equal manifestations of a Supreme ONE. Thus, three is subsumed into one. This is represented by AUM (which also represents other trinities at the same time). The roles of creator, preserver and destroyer are all interlinked and dependent on another, each leading to the other and cycling around. When the One subsuming factor is known, these three are transcended. This has little in common with the Christian trinity. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. One is the True and Only God. The second is the representative or issuing of God on earth. The third is the all-pervasive essence of that God. Thus, the latter two are ultimately subservient or, in more neutral terms, reliant on the first, the Father, while the Father is the source of the other two.
In the Hindu trinity, we see that such reliance is not existent. Shaivaite or Vaishnav sects have often used stories to intimate that one God arose from the other, but these are motivated by sectarian ideologies. It is accepted that the Hindu trinity is a level plane of three from One.
Thus, if someone only versed in Christian scriptures, or who knows something about the Christian trinity, were to see your comparison left unexplained, he/she would come away with a wrong-headed understanding of the Hindu trinity dynamic. Your comparison is unfortunately rather random, since unlike the common flood stories of Hinduism and the Abrahaminic traditions, the two trinities don't share anything meaningful or show ANY signs of having arisen from a common root. The Hindu trinity predated that of Christianity by many a century, and its philosophical and theological significance is based on an entirely different framework of thought than the Christian one. I suggest that if Comparative studies be explored, they a) should be put at the end of the page as non-central issues and b) be explained more thoroughly to dispell any potential misconceptions, misreadings or misunderstandings. --LordSuryaofShropshire 17:29, Mar 25, 2004 (UTC)
:I agree with the last sentance and its points, if not those preceeding :) Sam Spade 18:48, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparisons 

message: I don't mind your edits at all on first inspection, it looks like you did rather well, but we will need to NPOV the section on caste, which is a bit exaggerated in its renounciation of caste, which is clearly still a powerful force in hindu society. Sam Spade 21:00, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: [[caste]]