Talk:Celtic harp

message: I suppose a lot of the history of the Celtic harp in Ireland is covered by Coat of arms of Ireland, but it could really do with a separate article, or if not a reformatting of this article into Ireland and Scotland sections. Almost all of this article is written from the perspective of the Celtic harp in Scotland. Added to Wikiproject Irish Music to hopefully attract some more attention. NTF30 (talk) 22:11, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Irish Harp

message: Harp#Wire-strung harps (clàrsach or cláirseach) duplicates some info from Clàrsach, adds more and is missing more.  
The section in Harp should be a short synopsis headed by a  as per WP:GTL#If a section is a summary of another article.  All content should be on the specialised article. This reduces the risk of two diverging articles maintained in tandem by different people, rather than a single comprehensive article that everyone collaborates on. jnestorius(talk) 00:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree Brendandh 18:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge proposal

message: The word was not originally "cruit" - this refers to another type of harp. --MacRusgail 15:56, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cruit

message: The article states that the cláirseach originated in the Pictish area in Scotland and then moved to the Gaelic areas and then to Ireland.
It justifies this statement by using arguments largly laid out in "Gaelic Harps & Harpers in Ireland & Scotland
by The Honourable Robert Ruadh of the Isles" which has no historical basis. The fact that drawings used to verify this statement are on stones (on which artwork is very difficult to carbon date) does not prove this. If one was to work on this hypothesis then Rheims would be a likely place for the origin of the Cláirseach (Psalter of Utrecht was largely created there).
I am no historian but even I am able to name two sources of Irish art where the Cláirseach is found. The first being the Shrine of St.Maedóic, the second I found today on the High Cross at Monasterboice in Co. Louth (with the date of the 923 ad carved on it - which is the accepted date of it's completion). I since found that there is another example found on the High Cross at Kells in Co. Meath. That's three, not one as is stated in the article. I'm sure if one was to carry out a little more research it would be possible to find more examples.
I feel that if the original author had based his/her research on something a little more solid it would have been more beneficial. Perhaps a visit to Early Gaelic Harpwould have been a better and more balanced place to begin.
: With all due respect Muiris Ó Suilleabháin I have based my data on empirical studies on instruments from the (5th to 11th centuries) and something a bit more solid than what you state. I approve of credible empirical data, and Rheimes is one of the earliest locations for a triangular harp instrument. However other experts disagree “The earliest examples of a triangular harp comes from the British Isles” “Bruice Mitford The Sutton-Hoo lyre (1970), and “The earliest example we have of a triangular harp in Europe comes from the Nigg stone” Isobel Henderson, The Picts (1970) and the oldest credible depictions are Pictish, Francis W. Galpin and the Triangular Harps Otto Andersson (1966).
Also that;
* “It is notable that Pictish harp depictions are at least 200 years older than any other European depiction of a triangular harp instrument. (Ross, p. 38; John Bannerman, "The Clarsach and Clarsair", in Scottish Studies, 30, 1991, pp. 1-17).
* “There are thirteen depictions of harp from Pictish-era Scotland these triangular harps do not look like those depicted in later medieval Scotland or Ireland although they are the first.” Alasdair Ross, "Pictish Chordophone Depictions", in Cambrian Medieval Celtic Studies, 36, 1998, esp. p. 41).
Indeed I have looked at the data from Ireland, as have the experts, regarding the cross at Kells and the Monasterboice carving. I would include these as valid references, however;
* “Many of the stones show various type of lyre, e.g the one shown from Clonmacnoise. These instruments are not harps; they have a flat sound box with a bridge and tailpiece to hold the strings.” Alasdair Ross 'Harps of Their Owne Sorte' (1998).
* “Although there are more stringed instruments depicted on Irish stones than Pictish stones in this period, there are no credible triangular stringed harp instruments depicted on any Irish stone. (Joan Rimmer, The Irish Harp, (Cork, 1969) 
* “Lyres are often confused with harps in literature. The word psaltery, lyre and harp are often confused with one another and both come from the word to pluck a stringed instrument. The best we can hope to do then is note what instruments are depicted in their art and ignore the written record.” Roslyn Rench, The Harp (1969). She also states that the appearance of a column made the advent of the modern harp first appeared in Ross, Scotland in the 8th century.
* Harbison1992, 4, reference to a High Cross at Clonmacnoise is a reference to this cross carving S2 - David playing his lyre.” Harbison, P. The High Crosses of Ireland, (1992). 
* “However lyres are very different instrument from harps, and it is unlikely that triangular harps evolved out of these lyres.” Graeme Lawson, An Anglo-Saxon harp and lyre of the ninth century, in "Music and Tradition", ed. Widdes and Wolpert, Cambridge 1991,
High Cross at Monasterboice in Co. Louth 923, does show a triangular instrument unfortunately the carving is worn and it is not clear if the strings correspond to a lyre or triangular instrument found in the Pictish examples. The Cross at Monasterboice shows what Harp Historian Joan Rimmer (The Irish　Harp, Mercier, 1977) says appears to be a round-headed lyre. Therefore this triangular instrument is not seen as a valid example. From an Irish perspective Archaeological evidence points more to a lyre as found in the Sutton hoo burial, a harp-lyre they range in date from the fifth through the tenth century in Anglo-Saxon, Classical, Frankish and Celtic cultures. Such instruments were used in the papal harp school in Ireland from the 5th century. 
No form of research I have read has ever stated that Pictish instruments were carved at a later date, The standard inclusion in Wikipedia articles is not factuality but verifiable sources and we are not conducting academic research for a journal more writing an encyclopedia. Gaelic carvings only have three or four examples at best when compared to the 12 examples found in Pictish stones. If the three examples in the Palster were influential then why is there no other country, province or society with that many representations (including Rhemes) and why do the majority still use a lyre representing king David with exception of the Picts?.
For balance I suggest a short introduction based on credible data suggesting that triangular stringed instruments were in use, in Ireland and Britain. However data suggests these were lyres rather than Celtic harps. That as far as I can see is how the experts see it. All except one study I have included in the article. Also that the Maedoc book cover be included in the article. Although the majority of the text was moved from the Harp page without my knowledge and didn’t include the Maedoc data. Regards Celtic Harper 00:18, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cláirsigh in Irish art

message: I've broken the article up into sections and shuffled the text to the section that seemed most appropriate, hopefully without losing any information. I've left the Cleanup tag in place. Trugster 16:10, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: the name of Alan Stivell is not evocated at all.
Is the author of the article so young that neither his name neither "Renaissance of the Celtic Harp" album or his general musical and promotting work mean nothing to him or her?
Please repair this.
It would be nice to quote also the accepted name of "Celtic Harp".
81.48.173.109 (talk) 14:31, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: ALAN STIVELL'S WORK FORGOTTEN?

message: Keep this fictional nonsense out of this article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.213.239.24 (talk) 06:28, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Morbhan Republic" nonsense 

message: As much as they may be pleasant fairy tales to read, the first two sections are totally unreferenced -and totally questionable-. Please let's be aware that this is an encyclopaedia, and that publishing opinionated ideas is not appropriate. The same goes for the advertisement of an obscure School and for a list of CDs from the School tutors in the "Revival" section.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.4.60 (talk) 23:04, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lots of unreferenced content, original research and ads 

message: I sadly note that 40% of the references come from earlygaelicharp.info, a non-academic self-published source, and that the article ends with the advert of a self-published CD by earlyaelicharp.info's author and publisher, defined "important" alongside other two, for a total of 3 (three) CDs out of the large existing discography. And a further reference to www.irishharp.org links the 3 authors together. Not good. Really not good. 86.186.176.98 (talk) 07:37, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self publishing and advertising 

message: Though it is often suggested[who?] that the British monarchy is the prime reason for the instrument's decline[dubious – discuss], it could be argued that (with several other instruments of the time) it went out of fashion as the baroque era advanced and musical tastes changed[original research?].
I am inclined to look at this part of the entry with much scepticism. There are no references anywhere and what music survives of the harpers shows otherwise to the latter statement. Notably, remaining Irish harpers adopting the baroque style to please their patrons. British monarchy was no doubt a factor, but I am not inclined to speculate on the issue deeply nor do I have any references that could be useful here. The entry is best suited without this paragraph.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.122.64.19 (talk) 14:49, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreferenced part removal 

message: I have rewritten much of this article, adding references. I have also added new sections to establish the clàrsach in a specifically Scottish setting. The Scottish and Irish wire-strung harps belong, of course, to a common tradition, but the clàrsach does have a history of its own, coloured by a social and cultural environment which differed from that of Ireland. A separate article should be prepared for the Irish cláirseach.
Colin Ryan (talk) 10:21, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additions and changes 

message: I don't understand the basis for the term. Can anyone explain it? Fergananim (talk) 11:58, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know exactly why it's called that, but I know it is called that, and it's clearly never called the "Irish and British Harp". Presumably the "Celtic" name comes from the fact that it was used in the Celtic countries.--Cúchullain t/c 13:52, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edits are not an improvement. For one thing, Wikipedia articles are about things, not names, so it's "the Celtic harp is...", not "the Celtic harp is the modern English name of..." You also inserted a claim that the harp was known by local Celtic names "till about the mid-19th century", which you contradict later by saying "It remains known by these names among Gaelic and Brythonic speakers". The one source you gave, a website for the Historical Harp Society of Ireland, doesn't verify any of the material you added. I didn't see the benefit in the rest of the material you added, so I just reverted. Please do not re-add this material without discussion.--Cúchullain t/c 18:48, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Cuchullain, could you at least ask why I made such edits in the first place before reverting them? In short 1 - the harp was known by these names among Gaelic-speaking and Brythonic-speaking communities because that was indeed their name for it, as it remains among their (much diminished) linguistic communities. There is no contradiction between the two statements; it reflects massive language shift, which is why the new name, Celtic harp (an English term) became used. If you have any other questions about why I made particular edits, please ask. That way they might be better understood, and less open to such quick reverts. Is mise, Fergananim (talk) 18:53, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: At this stage, I'd much prefer you explain what you're trying to do here before you make such large edits. Your comment above seems to be your original research and it's certainly not backed up by the one source you added. I doubt any source would say that the term "cláirseach" was the common name in Ireland until "about the mid-19th century", as one example. The article needs a lot of work - for instance it doesn't explain the difference between Irish and Welsh harps - but your edits just confused the matter even further.--Cúchullain t/c 19:02, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Why is it called a 'Celtic' harp?

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This long-standing merge proposal doesn't seem to have been commented on, so I'll start. A review of the history shows that the current Celtic harp page began under the Name Clàrsach back in 2006, which was then moved the english language term in December 2013. One year later, in December 2014, a section from Harp was moved over to Clàrsach, forming the basis for a new page. The merge then seems to have been partially tagged and then ignored. My view is that regional variations (telenn in Breton, cláirseach in Irish, clàrsach in Scottish Gaelic and telyn in Welsh) are best discussed together on one page. The choice of title should in general be the english language term (WP:NAME), and this does avoid the problem of agreeing amongst telenn, cláirseach, clàrsach and telyn. I also note that Clàrsach has considerable overlap already with Celtic harp, including historical and modern use. So, on balance, merge. Klbrain (talk) 16:44, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge from Clàrsach

message: — Assignment last updated by CBFraoch (talk) 17:12, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: These additions look pretty good to me. I think it all fit well in the article. Cameronmac1 (talk) 21:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Music and Dance of the Gael

message: I would suggest a change to various parts of this section because I think that important details have been missed; mostly small changes to the lead section and overall detail. Some key points are the more information on when metal strings (as far back as we know) were in the majority of use on the clàrsach. As well as, what the rest of the harp strings in Europe were made out of at the time. Also, another addition would be, clarification on what part of/ how they are played with the nails. Finally, this concludes my known additions, thus far, which will be implemented at the end of the week. Thanks! Uilleam1 (talk) 18:05, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charateristic and Function