Talk:World War II casualties/Archive 1

message: Why Post war alleged casulaties of Germany, should be listed among war casualties?? It is unlogical.
AM
:We have added this fact because it is seen as a result of the war and because explicitly noting prevents people like you from incorrectly altering the total war dead to include it with no notation. Preemptive action in other words. Rmhermen 23:41, Oct 17, 2003 (UTC)
:: then why you did not add number victims of Stalin deportation to the list as well. The number is nonsense. There were 2 200 000 people expelled from Poland and similar number from Czechoslowakia, in case of Poland victims could be counted on thousands at most, Czechoslowakia the highest number I saw was 200 000 AM. The matter of fact, the number maybe 1 000 000 total, 90% of it during the war. This is POV.
What the!!!  France and Free French are listed as allied power, while Polish soldiers are listed as one of attacked countries? Is there a reason why Polish army is worse treatened than French?? And why Poles dying in Tobruk, Narvik, battle of England, battle of Atlantik, Falaise,  Monte Cassino and numerous other battles are counted as from country attacked by Nazis, and French are not? The list is ABSURD!!!
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It is also a list of military casualties. Perhaps this should be made apparent in the title, or some data on civilian casualties added?
----
Romania and Italy fought on both sides, but they aren't listed at allies casualities. MihaiC
I found here (http://www.actrus.ro/biblioteca/cursuri/istorie/babos_2/capitol_8.html) more details about romanians casualities (unfortunatelly is in romanian). There were 300,000 dead, wounded and missing in the east and 168,000 dead, wounded and missing in the west. MihaiC 5 Feb 2004
----
It says that the Soviet Union lost 19,180,000 soldiers, can that be right? It then says that the total number of Allied soldiers lost was 17.2 million... something doesn't wash. - Eisnel 07:29, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Early discussion

message: On 23 Mar 2004, user Pinnecco changed casualities of Brazilian soldiers, from 940 to 490, noting this as a "minor change" on Allied Soldiers killed, however many sources say 940 not 490 deaths. Anyone can give information on this? Is what he changed... confirmed? Planckton 07:50, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brazil - casualities 

message: Did more Americans die in the Pacific fighting the Japanese or did more die against the Germans? I read somewhere that said more Americans died in Europe. I became suspicious because US only fought against the Germans briefly in North Africa and less than 1 year from D-Day to April 1945 on the Western Front while the US had been fighting the Japanese since Pearl Harbor in late 1941.--Secret Agent Man 21:12, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  US Casualties Question 

message: Could someone come up with the numbers and add them to the list? I know we (ie; Norway) lost more than a few good men during both the campain in Nowray in 1940, and also later in the war, espesially in the airwar.
--Nomist 12:31, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Norwegian Military casualties 

message: In the Allied Military list there are two figures for "India", one of the links lead to British Raj and the other to plain old India. What is up with this? Is it a split of the real India casualties, is it data from conflicting sources? Danthemankhan 22:07, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
-------------
There were Three Indias in the war:
British India or India. 2.64 million troops.
Princely India whose troops had captured Damascus in 1918 and Jerusalem. Their troops stopped Rommell at El Alamein and then died in numbers at Monte Cassino.
Free India of Subhash Chandra Bose. Independent Indian troops fighting British along japanese and capturing two British Indian provinces, Andamans and Manipur.
Added by Berndd
Dont forget number four, the Legion Freies Indien/Infanterie-Regiment 950 (indische)- The Nazi SS unit formed from Indian POW volunteers.
--Berndd11222 20:21, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Two Indias?

message: The total numbers of Axis and Allied soldiers does not seem to add up. I did not change anything, but its easy to see (should be 18,1 - not 19,2 from the subtotals). There may be some other casualties included, but if so they should be stated. It is maybe wise to just list numbers in whole millions in the sum, as there is huge problems in finding out a total. Ulflarsen 20:07, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The numbers does not seem to be added correct

message: It is true that Finland was allied with Germany in WWII, but Finland was definitely not a member of the Axis. Perhaps there could be a section called "Other countries" or such?
Finland certainly wasn't an axis power during Winter war, but since it was allied with Germany during Continuation war, I'd count it as Axis power from 1941 to -44 that war. Of course it'd be hard to put it to the piecharts, since some (maybe a quarter) of the deads came before or after Axis-period.
The footnotes give a breakdown of Finland's losses--Berndd11222 17:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finland was not an axis power 

message: 32,000,000 seems to be more than other sources indicate. Rich Farmbrough 13:03, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chinese Civilians 

message: Statement - Deutsches Historisches Museum Berlin:
http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/wk2/kriegsverlauf/wehrmacht/index.html
...17 million served, of whom 4.7 million died, until 8th May, 1945.
WernerE, 27 Apr 2005
I've heard that Germany suffered around 30 000 casualties. Which must have been over half the population at the time, so that's huge. But I believe I've heard this more than once. The stats here show 'only' 7 760 000. Quite a discrepancy. Have I misunderstood something somewhere? This is somwhat important, sicne I've already included it in the main WWII article. DirkvdM 10:47, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Again: German military casualties 

message: Noticed that. Lotsofissues 09:39, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  India twice? 

message: Should the Pie charts be "from" each country, not "in" each country, otherwise it shows that more allied casualties occured in the US than france, and virtually noe occured in the pacific/southeast asia.say1988 17:24, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
:I agree. Something else, though. Wouldn't a total pie chart make more sense (at least alongside these two)? DirkvdM 10:47, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Pies charts

message: The data for Poland includes the territory ceded by Poland to the USSR in 1945. The Soviets also pick up this territory, with about 10.0 Million people, in their population base. The Soviets considered this territory as part of the USSR in October 1939. 
Polish losses should be allocated as follows
Western Poland          1939 Population  23.4 Million, War Losses -  3.300 Million (A)
Territory Ceded to USSR 1939 Population  11.6 Million, War Losses -  2.300 Million (B)      
(A)- Includes 2 Million Jews, 1.2 Million Poles and .2 Million ethnic Germans 
(B)- Includes 1 Million Jews,  .7 Million Poles and .6 Million others( Ukrainians & Russians)
 
--Berndd11222 22:57, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish - Soviet losses in World War Two 

message: Japanese war losses were the subject of an official report by General McArthur's staff in
Tokyo in 1948. The report entitled "Annual Changes in Population of Japan Proper 1 October 1920-
1 October 1947" is a detailed analysis of the demographic impact on Japan due to World War Two.
The data in this report indicates that Japan suffered about 3.1 Million excess deaths due to
the war and its aftermath. At that time an additional 767,000 Japanese were missing or awaiting
repatriation in the USSR and China. 
The author John Dower in his books "War Without Mercy" and "Embracing Defeat" cites Japanese sources which list a total of 2.6 Million Japanese dead due to the war. Military deaths(1937-45)
are listed as 1,740,955, civilians killed in bombings as 393,367, civilians killed on Okinawa
at 150,000 and 300,000 Japanese as missing and presumed dead after being captured by the Soviets in Manchuria. This does not include excess deaths due to hunger and disease after the  war and deaths due to radiation exposure in the atomic bombings.
--Berndd11222 22:57, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese War Losses 

message: The Official Report published by the Ethiopian government in 1946 listed the following
casualties as a result of the Italian invasion and occupation
Military Dead:                        353,500
Civilian Dead in Bombings:             17,800
Victims of massacres & executions:     89,000
Deaths due to "privations owing to
destruction of villages"               300,000
Total                                  760,300
Italy's War Crimes in Ethiopia- 1946 (reprinted 2000) 
 --Berndd11222 21:30, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethiopian War Dead 1935-41 

message: "Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkreig" by R. Overmans lists
on page 335 the national origin of German war dead:
Germany & Danzig                4,456,447
Annexed Territories 
(Polish corridor, Sudetenland, Memel) 206,452
Alsace Lorraine                    30,135
Austria                            260,749
Slovenia                             4,000
Eastern Europe
(Baltic States, Poland, Rumania, Hungary)                 328,178
Western Europe:
Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, Norway & Denmark                      29,132
Others                                 3,000
Grand Total                         5,318,093
Note: This DOES NOT include 215,000 Soviet citizens killed while fighting with the German wehrmacht and listed separately by the German High Command. They were not covered by Overmans.
It should be pointed out that Overmans derived his data taking a sample of German High Command records using statistical analysis to estimate losses. These figures are not an actual count of war losses.
 
--Berndd11222 13:19, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  German Military Dead- Countries of origin 

message: The official Italian statistics on war losses are listed in - Ufficio Storico dello Stato Maggiore dell'Esercito. Commissariato generale C.G.V. . Ministero della Difesa - Edizioni 1986)
This is a Summary of the data:
Losses 1940 to Sept 1943
Military : 197,066
Civilian: In War Zones- 3,208 and 25,000 killed in air raids
Losses Sept 1943-May 1945
Military: Partisans Italy 17,488;with Partisans in Balkans 9,249; In Germany 1,478; POW's killed
by Germans 41,432; with Allied Army in Italy 5,927; with Italian Fascist forces 13,000 and
27,731 POWS in Allied hands ( USSR)
Civilians: Partisan war 37,288; by Germans 23,446; by Fascists 2,500; 38,939 in air raids
and in allied captivity 300.
Grand Total: Military Dead 313,371; Civilians 130,681
 --Berndd11222 23:20, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italian War Losses 

message: Total German losses from 1939 to 1946 are given as 6.9 Million by Peter Marshalck in his
"Bevölkerungsgeschichte Deutschlands"- (in German territory of 1937) . In "Deutsche militärische verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg" by Rüdiger Overmans the total military losses are given as 4.4 million(in pre war Germany only). How do we account for the remaining 2.5 million non combatants? The following is a summary of these losses.
A. Germans from Prussia/Schlesia -Overmans in his above mentioned work estimates that 690,000 German civilians were killed in the Soviet 1945 offensive and Polish occupation. A Polish historian Stanislaw Schimitzek estimated the losses as being 556,000 in "Truth or Conjecture" published in Warsaw (1966). Most of these losses occured from January-May 1945 during the fighting.
B. Allied Bombings- "The US Strategic Bombing Survey" estimates that 410,000 civilians were killed in air raids. 
C. Nazi Terror- R. J. Rummel in his work "Democide" estimates 763,000 Germans as being victims
of the Hitler period.
D. Soviet Justice- K. W. Fricke in "Politik und Justiz in der DDR" gives 90,000 Germans
accused of war crimes as being executed by the Soviets or dying in Soviet prisons.
E: Excess Deaths 1945-46 -Due to the conditions after the war an estimated 300,000 additional Germans died of hunger or disease. The death rate in the Soviet Zone went from 1.2% to an estimated 2.2% in 1946.         
  
F: Germans remaining in Poland- An estimated 200,000 Germans who remained in Poland 
were listed as dead or missing. The official West German government report on German Expellee losses published in 1958 estimated 1.1 Million Germans remaining in Poland in 1950. This was revised upward to 1.3 Million in "Die deutschen Vertribenen in Zahlen" by G. Reichling in 1986. 
G .The above cited work by Overman's also estimates the civilian losses suffered by the ethnic German civilians in eastern Europe( outside Germany's 1937 borders) as being about 400,000. These losses are in addition to those mentioned above within Germanys 1937 borders. Most of these losses occurred from January-May 1945 during the fighting.
--Berndd11222 00:41, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  German Civilian War losses 

message: Poland's War Losses 1939-1945 		
	 Polish Population (allocation by Religion) 		
	  	
     Population 	 	
 
 A.       Estimated population on 1/1/39 ----------------------------------34,850,000 	
 B. 	 Eastern Orthodox, Ukrainian Catholic and Lithuanian population --(7,900,000)	
 C. 	 Ethnic German population (Volksdeutsch)--------------------------- (900,000)	
 D. 	 Total Polish Roman Catholic  & Jewish population-----------------26,050,000 	
	
     Population Shifts	
	
 E.       Natural Increase 1/39-2/45   ------------------------------------1,250,000 	
 F. 	 Natural Increase 2/46-12/50 -------------------------------------2,080,000 	
 G. 	 German population remaining in Oder-Neisse territories-1950----- 1,308,000 	
 H. 	 Eastern Orthodox, Ukrainian Catholic and Lithuanian Pop 1950 ------490,000 	
 I. 	 Immigration to Poland 1946-50------------------------------------- 152,000 	
 J. 	 Poles remaining in USSR after 1950--------------------------------(870,000)	
 K. 	 Polish refugees in the west 1950----------------------------------(420,000)	
 L. 	 Jewish refugees in the west 1950----------------------------------(140,000)	  		  	
			
 M. 	 Population per Census 12/1950----------------------------------(25,000,000)	
			
 N. 	 Estimated War Losses 1939-45------------------------------------- 4,900,000 	
			
In addition to the above losses an additional 500,000 former Polish citizens from the Ukrainian Catholic and Eastern Orthodox populations were war dead in the USSR during 1941-45. Losses of the ethnic German population of about 200,000 are also excluded. Total losses would be 5,600,000 if they were included with Polish losses. 		
----
PLEASE NOTE WELL	
THIS BALANCE OF 4.9 MILLION WAR DEAD INCLUDES 1.8 MILLION DEATHS WHICH ARE INCLUDED IN USSR WAR LOSSES. THE TERRITORIES WHICH WERE CEDED TO USSR BY POLAND ARE INCLUDED IN THE TOTAL SOVIET 1941 POPULATION OF 196.7 MILLION. WHEN COMPUTING THE TOTAL SOVIET WAR DEAD THE RUSSIANS ASSUME THAT THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF THE TERRITORIES OCCUPIED IN 1939-1940 WERE SOVIET CITIZENS DURING THE ENTIRE WAR PERIOD 1941-45. POLISH HISTORIANS ALSO INCLUDE THE POPULATION IN THESE TERRITORIES AS " POLISH CITIZENS" WHEN COMPUTING WAR LOSSES. IN ORDER TO AVOID A DUPLICATION OF WAR DEAD THESE LOSSES OF 1.8 MILLION MUST APPEAR IN EITHER THE POLISH OR SOVIET TOTAL BUT NEVER IN BOTH.
----
   REFERENCES
 A. 	 Population Changes in Europe Since 1939- G.Frumkin 1951
         Population Changes in Poland by H. Zielinski-1954 	
         The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954 	
         Maly rocznik statystyczny Polski-Polish Ministry Information -London 1941 		
			
 B. 	  By Religion. Allocated according to 1931 census -
          Maly rocznik statystyczny Polski-Polish Ministry Information -London 1941    
          The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954,
         Protection of minorities in Poland- S. Loszinski-1999 		
			
 C. 	 Detailed in Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen- G. Reichling-1986 
         110,000 German military dead 1939-45, 90,000 civilian dead 1945-50
         670,000 expellees in Germany 1950, 40,000 deported to USSR 		
			
 D.  	 By Religion. Allocated according to 1931 census 
         The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954 
         Maly rocznik statystyczny Polski-Polish Ministry Information -London 1941 
         Polish Roman Catholics 22,750,000, Jews 3,300,000 		
			
 E. 	 My Estimate based on data in Population Changes in Poland by H. Zielinski-1954 
         and The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954 		
			
 F. 	 Population Changes in Poland by H. Zielinski-1954 ,European Historical Statistics-1980 		
		   	
 G. 	 Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen- G. Reichling-1986 ,
         Truth or Conjecture? S.       Schimitzek -1966 		
			
 H. 	 Protection of minorities in Poland- S. Loszinski-1999 		
			
 I. 	 Poland a Historical Atlas- I. Pogonowski 
         Immigration of 150,000 Poles from western Europe 		
			
 J. 	 My estimate based  1959 Soviet census data of former Polish territories. 
         The number of Jews in this total is no more than 70,000. 		
			
 K. 	 European Refugees- M. Proudfoot-1956 
         The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954 		
			
 L.  	 Historical Atlas of East Central Europe- P.R. Magocsi  
         European Refugees- M. Proudfoot-1956 
         The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954 		
			
 M. 	 European Historical Statistics-1980 		
			
			
 N.      Estimated losses -German occupation-4,100,000 ( including 3.0 Million Jews) 		 
         
         Estimated losses -Soviet occupation-400,000 (including Poles in Soviet Army as
         well as Soviet terror) 
         
         Estimated losses -UPA terror-100,000-Poles massacred by Ukrainian forces.             
	 
         Polish Military Dead-100,000 in regular units and up to 60,000 in resistance forces.		
--Berndd11222 01:27, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poland's War Losses 1939-45 

message: The US Holocaust Memorial Museum has published a report "Poles as Victims of the Nazi Era"
that points out that often quoted figure of 6 Million Poles killed in the war as being 
incorrect. They point out that historians in post communist Poland now believe that Poland 
lost between 4.8 and 4.9 Million as a result of the war. The reason for the revision downwards
is that the Polish government report of 1947 assumed that all Poles had been repatriated from the USSR. In fact about 900,000 Poles choose to remain in the USSR or were denied permission to leave. After the Stalin era from 1955-58 the USSR allowed 245,000 Poles to emigrate. The 1959 Soviet census of former the Polish territories listed 700,000 persons who gave "Polish" as their ethnic group. Also about 100,000 Poles who were deported during the war still remained in Siberia. The proof of Polish survival in the former Soviet Union is a resurgence of the Roman Catholic church in the western Ukraine and Byelorussia since 1989.
The following two Polish language articles explain in detail why losses were 1.1 to 1.2 million less than what was previously thought.
Both articles appeared in the Polish Journal Dzieje Najnowsze # 2- 1994
Czesław Łuczak - Szanse i trudności bilansu demograficcznego Polski w latach 1939-1945
Krystyna Kersten- Szacunek strat osobowych w Polsce Wschodniej
--Berndd11222 02:37, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poland's War Losses-1939-45  

message: For those people who have doubts about a double count of Soviet and Polish losses the following analysis of the population should settle the issue. The Soviets pick up an additional 19.6 million in their population base as a result of the annexations and population shifts of 1939-46. This is broken down as follows: Poland 10 million; the Baltic States 5.3 million; Romania 3.5 million; Czechoslovakia 700,000 and a slice of Mongolia (Tuva) 100,000. 
In the case of Poland they occupied territory of 13.2 million in 1939 and gave back 1.5 million in 1945 , 2.0 million left to live in Poland(this is per 1950 Polish census data), 300,000 fled to the west as refugees and 600,000 Ukrainians were expelled from Poland to the USSR. The net pickup by the USSR is 10.0 million before war losses are taken into account. The first postwar Soviet census of this region in 1959 yielded 9 million for these territories, the population of the USSR grew 22% from 1945-59. That yields a post war 1945 population of 7.4 million, 2.6 million less than what the Soviets picked up from Poland. The difference of 2.6 million are losses due to to the war and the post war Soviet deportations( about 300,000). The Polish pick up these losses as "Polish Citzens" and count them with Polish losses in modern day Poland of about 3.0-3.3 million. The total losses being about 5.6-5.9 million. The Soviets also pick them up in the total of 26.6 million war dead. We must decide on which line to put the losses, we can't count them twice. I hope this helps.--Woogie10w 22:12, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish-Soviet Losses 

message: Yugoslav losses during WW2 have been the subject of debate in recent years. Tito stated in 1945 that 1.7 Million died in the war. This became gospel in Yugoslavia until 1990 but has been shown to be incorrect. Yugoslavia suffered a demographic loss of 1.7 Million from 1941-1945, including the deportation of 400,000 ethnic Germans, 140,000 Italians and 80,000 Yugoslav's who fled to the west. The actual losses related to the war were between 1.0 Million and 1.1 Million. This does not include victims of communist terror in the postwar era. 
The following sources explain the problem in detail.
The Population of Yugoslavia- U.S. Bureau of Census 1954
Population losses in Yugoslavia during World War Two- Johann Wuscht 1963  
Yugoslavia manipulations with the number Second World War victims - Vladimir Zerjavic 1993
--Berndd11222 11:37, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yugoslavia Casualties 1941-45 

message: Malta lost about 2,000 civilians in Axis bombings during the war and about 100 Maltese
were killed serving with UK forces. I think these brave people deserve a line on the 
list of WW2 casualties.
--Berndd11222 11:54, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Malta 1939-1945 

message: Africans from the colonies of the UK, Italy and France served and died in the war also. I believe your table includes them in the UK and France totals. Africans served with UK forces in the campaigns in east Africa and Burma, their losses were 4,000 KIA. The French had Africans serving in special colonial divisions, 22,000 were KIA. The Italians had Eritrean and Somali colonial soldiers that fought in the 1935-1941 East Africa campaigns, 8,000 were KIA.  It is not clear if they were included with Italian casualties. 
The data on African losses mentioned above comes from Poteri Narodonaselenia
v 20 veke by Vadim Erlikman.  
--Berndd11222 13:09, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Africa in World War Two 

message: R. J. Rummel in his book "China's Bloody Century" mentions on page 123 that an estimated
432,000 Chinese died while serving in the puppet forces during the Sino-Japanese War and
he also estimated on page 192 that 50,000 puppet soldiers were massacred by the Kuomingtang
when the war ended.
Vadim Erlikman in his book " Poteri Narodnaceleniya v 20 Veke" mentions on page 71 that
an estimated 100,000 Koreans served in the Japanese military during WW2 and that 10,000
were killed in action. He also estimates that 20,000 Japanese civilians residing in Korea
were massacred in 1945 at the time of liberation.
--Berndd11222 01:13, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese Allied Forces 

message: In his Statistics of Democide R. J. Rummel covers the subject of civilian deaths due to the
Japanese occupation of Southeast Asia. These losses are also listed in Vadim Erlikman's
"Poteri Narrodonaceleniya v 20 Beke" 
The following is a recap of civilian losses by both authors.
                 Rummel       Erlikman
IndoChina      -----------------------487,000 ----------------2,065,000
East Indies    ----------------------375,000 ----------------1,990,000
Singapore      -----------------------200,000 -------------------75,000
Malaya                 -------------------------83,000-----   -------------------600,000
Burma                  ---------------------------60,000          ----------------1,070,000
--Berndd11222 01:13, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Civilian losses in Southeast Asia 1941-45 

message: The Centre for Mulitiethnic Research at Uppsala University in Sweden has published a paper
entitled " Hungary's Human Losses in World War II" by Tamás Stark. This study was sponsored
by the Raoul Wallenberg project in Sweden. Tamás Stark is affiliated with the History Dept.
of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. His summary of Hungary's WW 2 losses is as follows.
Military:
KIA- 110-120,000 including 20-25,000 Jews who died in forced labor units.
MIA- 200,000 POW's who died in Soviet Labor camps.
64 % of these losses are from the territory within Hungary's present borders and the remainder
from the territories occupied by Hungary in Rumania, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.
Civilian:
Losses in the territory of Hungary's present borders only: 
Jewish Holocaust victims -220,000
Civilians killed in fighting 1944-45 44,000 
Total losses in the territory of Hungary's present borders - 470,000.
--Berndd11222 10:05, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hungary's Losses in World War 2 

message: User:Berndd11222 has posted a lot of information above on casualty numbers of WWII.
I recommend that a summary is posted here on the discussion page, that is,
a summary which states which numbers should be updated, including the current number.
Example:
* Soviet Union, Military: 7 -> 10,6
* Soviet Union, Civilian: 13 -> 17,6
* Soviet Union, Total: 20 -> 27,6
In this way, it will be easier for the users to review and discuss the numbers.
Later, when and if, the numbers in the article are updated, I strongly recommend
further use of footnotes for the numbers (as is partly present in the current article).
In the footnotes, special explanations can be written and, very importantly, the source(s) stated.
I also believe that the Casualties article should have a dedicated section called "Sources". In this section sources could be listed like this :
Sources
These are the sources used for numbers concerning:
* Soviet Union : Erlikman, Vadim. "Poteri Narodonaselenia v 20 veke"
I would contribute and help this article if I felt I had knowledge on these subjects. Sadly, I don't, so my contribution will be limited to the recommendations I just mentioned. Good luck, however!
Regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 06:54, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New casualties numbers? 

message: When I see a casualty statistic I ask the following question:
Is the source reliable?
For example when the UK government reports that 264,000 military dead in World War 2, I consider the data to be reliable. 
When I read that Khrushchev announced that the USSR lost 20 Million in World War 2, I checked the numbers. 
The methodology is actually quite simple:
Step 1 - Start with the prewar Census Population
Step 2- Add live births 
Step 3-  Subtract natural deaths( non war related )
Step 4- Adjust for changes in territory. For example add the population of the Baltic states to the USSR total in 1940. 
Step 5- Adjust for population movements, immigration and emigration. For example subtract the
400,000 ethnic Germans sent out of the USSR in 1940. 
Step 6- Add the data and compare it to the post war census. The result will be your war losses.
In the 1990's the Russians opened the archives and found that the Soviets had falsified the
census and vital statistics data, losses were understated. The actual losses were about 27-28 million in the war, including 5 Million behind the lines in Soviet held territory. 
As a rule of thumb I always check any claims that are made regarding casualty statistics
I welcome any comments on the notes I have posted on various World War 2 casualty topics.
Bernd  
--68.236.161.237 17:21, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re New casualty numbers? 

message: The article list the number of deaths at nearly seventy million yet the single reference the page uses gives the number at 55 million! The website listed is by no means authoritative and yets is the only source listed. For some reason the Red Army officers killed in Stalin's purge have been listed. The German casualties are almost backward. It is estimated over 4 million German serviceman were killed and about 1.6 million civilians by bombing raids and expulsion by the Red Army. 6,000 U.S. civilian deaths are given, yet the only ones I know of are a family that was killed by a Japanese balloon. Anyone care to explain that. All my figures are taken the from The Second World War by John Keegan which iss regarded by many to be the best one volume book on the war. User:IndieJones|IndieJones]] 22:06, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  SERIOUSLY FLAWED 

message: The US civilian casualties were about 5,000 Merchant Marine. Also 1,000 civilian internees never
came home. R J Rummel in his "Statistics of Democide" Page 37 mentions that 590 US civilians died in Japanese captivity. The Nazis interned Americans in Europe, about 200 died including a
few Jews killed in the camps. 
The table also includes 33,500 UK merchant mariner deaths in the total of 90,000 UK civilians
--Berndd11222 23:09, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re seriously flawed 

message: Most of 4,000 military dead were with the German armed forces. About 200 died fighting with
the Belgians. 
--Berndd11222 00:12, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Luxembourg war losses 

message: The Iraqi army lost 1,000 KIA when the British occupied the country in 1941. 
--Berndd11222 00:21, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iraq May 1941 

message: Check the UK casualty figure of 272,000 includes 8,000 colonial troops. 
--Berndd11222 02:05, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  UK Colonial troops 

message: POLAND LOSSES WW2 
MILITARY- 200,000
CIVILIAN -5,400,000
TOTAL-5,600,000
NOTE- Includes losses in territory ceded to USSR by Poland in 1945 of 2.3 Million
Source- See remarks by Prof. Tadeuz Piotrowski on Polish casualties.
http://www.projectinposterum.org/
Go to section entitled- European War Casualties
--Berndd11222 10:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  POLAND -Proposed change 

message: Losses WW2
MILITARY- 5,300,000
CIVILIAN- 2,600,000
TOTAL- 7,900,000
NOTES:
Military Losses- Germany(1937 Borders)4,440,000; Austria-260,000; Ethnic Germans from other
European countries 600,000.
Civilian Losses- Germany(1937 Borders) 2,100,000; Austria- 100,000; Ethnic Germans from other
European countries 400,000.
Sources:
Peter Marshalck -"Bevölkerungsgeschichte Deutschlands im 19. und 20. Jahrhundert"
Rüdiger Overmans-"Deutsche militärische verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg"
--Berndd11222 10:22, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  GERMANY-Proposed change 

message: USSR Losses WW2
Soviet Military - 10,000,000( including 2,600,000 POW's)
Partisan/Milita-400,000
Civilian- 12,600,000
Total- 23,000,000
Notes: 
The Russian sources listed below detail these losses.
Does not include 2,300,000 civilian dead in territory ceded to the USSR by Poland in 1945. 
They are included with Polish losses.
 
Includes civilian losses of 3.7 Million in Soviet held territory due to hunger and disease. 
Additional deaths of 1,700,000 due to Soviet terror are not included in this total.
Sources: 
G.F. Krivosheev-Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses - Translation of 1993 Russian publication.
Russian Academy of Sciences-St. Petersburg 1995- Ludskie Poteri SSSR 
Erlikman, Vadim. "Poteri Narodonaselenia v 20 veke" -Moscow, Panorama 2004.
Andreev, EM, et al. NASELENIE SOVETSKOGO SOIUZA, 1922-1991. Moscow, Nauka, 1993.
--Berndd11222 10:38, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  USSR Proposed Change 

message: Japans war losses 1937-45
Military- 1,930,000
Civilian-   700,000
Total-    2,630,000
Notes:
Military losses include 300,000 missing in China and USSR after being captured in 1945 and
185,000 lost in China from 1937-1941.
Losses do not include an estimated 500,000 puppet troops in China 
Sources- John Dower - War Without Mercy and Embracing Defeat   
Berndd--Berndd11222 16:30, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  JAPANS LOSSES-PROPOSED CHANGES 

message: Hungary's WW2 Losses:
Military: 300,000
Civilian: 280,000
Total: 580,000
Note: Military losses are for entire Hungarian Army including men from Slovakia, Rumania and
Yugoslavia drafted by the Hungarians. Civilian losses are only for Hungary within its current 
borders. 
Source: Tamás Stark -Hungary's Human Losses in World War II
berndd--Berndd11222 16:59, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hungary's WW2 losses- Proposed Changes 

message: Yugoslavia WW2 Losses
Military- 300,000
Civilian -800,000
Total - 1,100,000
Source:
Yugoslavia manipulations with the number Second World War victims - Vladimir Zerjavic 1993
berndd--Berndd11222 16:59, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yugoslavia WW2 casualties -Proposed Changes 

message: Per the US Dept of Defense the total losses were 405,399 during WW2
Berndd--Berndd11222 16:57, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  US WW2 Losses 

message: I have a question for the person who posted the new numbers today.
From which source did you copy the numbers?
--Berndd11222 23:28, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The new numbers 

message: I have made two changes today, September 11 2005, because i feel that for many people the older verion was of a much better design, while not as statistically effective, the Axis, Allies design is more informative and clearer.
Considered, it would be a very effective idea to combine the qualities of the older table and new table, taking the colum headings of the new tables and placeing them in the old axis and allies seperate tables.
I also felt that the newer table was incomplete. It made to many estimates and the totals were overly rough and not correctly combined.
I would have done this task myself if it were not for the avaliability of a close enough version in older hashes of this article
I also modified the Combined totals heading that i originally designed and wrote on this article because many recent updates have made it repedative with its statistics, ineffective, overly rough and considerably hard to understand.
I am happy that the figure of 50 million has been applied to deaths in world war two as a close enough estimate. So long as it accounts for the deaths of ALL humans irrespective of their political alignment.
I would think someone would see it fit to change the page back to the newer table. In this case i would request that the totals located at the bottom of the table be cleared up. That there be a clear definition within the table between military and civilian deaths. That there be a combined human deaths, and if possible seperate the table into axis and allies.
As for the combined totals, i still believe the section is a good idea, because it provides statistics of the war in a english fasion. So long as the following formate is maintained:
Sentance 1: Total Human Death numbers Axis and Allies respetivly
Sentance 2: Total Human loss of life irrespective of political alignment or military or civilian status.
Sentance 3. Total Military and Civilian deaths irrespective of political alignment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.217.26.122 (talk • contribs)  05:20, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am fine with either versions. But we should make sure to have all numbers add up to about 50 mill (or whatever number we agree on). I made changes to make it so. I also rounded the summary numbers as they aren't possibly known to single digit accuracy. Shanes 05:34, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes back to old 

message: Bulgaria occupied Thrace and Macadonia during WW2. The Jewish population of 50,000 was turned over to the Germans by the Bulgarians to be sent to the death camps. These deaths should be recorded in Yugoslavia and Greece not with Bulgaria. Most Bulgarian Jews survived the war.
Source: The War Against the Jews - Lucy Dawidowicz- 1975
--Berndd11222 13:16, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bulgarian Civilian Losses 

message: Hi 
Is footnote # 16 a sick joke or just a typo?
--Berndd11222 02:05, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Footnote # 16 

message: What are the sources of the data that you have used for the tables of casualties and losses?
--Berndd11222 10:22, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Your sources need to be listed 

message: The actual losses per the French government were 212,000 military and 330,000 civilians in WW2.
Source:
link title
Go to E-Revue- Les pertes français.
--Berndd11222 10:34, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Losses France  

message: Merchant Marine losses and civilians interned. Their losses of 10,000 need to be listed.
--Berndd11222 10:55, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  US Civilian casualties 1941-45 

message: The number you have listed for French military dead includes 40,000 French serving in the
German Army.
--Berndd11222 20:05, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note for "Potemkine"-on French losses 

message: The number you copied of 37.7 Million deaths during WW2 in the USSR includes natural deaths
of 12 Million in addition to war related deaths of about 26 Million.
Natural deaths would include the old timer aged 91 who died of old age as well as the young
man aged 19 who walked off a cliff due to sheer stupidity. 
--Berndd11222 12:00, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hallo!!! Nr: 142.204.87.219 

message: Good god, this page has got a LOT more detail in it since I last was here! Don't know who did it, but my qualified guess is
Berndd11222. Anyway, great work! I hate though to state the fact that the table would be nicer if the columns were right-aligned,
and I hate to say it because I know that table-making is a f*cking bitch to handle. I don't feel like trying it out now, but hopefully I will return later and give it a try. But, most, importantly, I repeat, great work done with the details on this page!!! Regards, Dennis Nilsson. --Dna-Dennis 16:37, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Great work, someone...! 

message: I don't wish to be pedantic, but "casualties" means human beings. Shouldn't equipment losses be on their own page? Or should the article be renamed Statistics of World War II or something like that? Grant65 (Talk) 13:21, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Name of page/Equipment losses

message: Poland Population 1939-50
Description                	Polish View	Russian View	Difference
Population 1/1/39          	34,850,000 	34,850,000  	0
Transfer to USSR           	(7,700,000)	(10,000,000)	2,300,000
Transfer to Germany        	(800,000)  	(800,000)   	0
Natural Increase 1939-1945 	1,300,000  	1,300,000   	0
Natural Increase 1946-1950 	2,100,000  	2,100,000   	0
Germans Remaining in Poland	1,300,000  	1,300,000   	0
Immigration                	150,000    	150,000     	0
Emigration to the West     	(600,000   	(600,000)   	0
War losses                 	(5,600,000)	(3,300,000) 	(2,300,000)
Census Population 12/1950  	25,000,000 	25,000,000) 	0
 Source: The Population of Poland. The U.S. Bureau of census 1954.
This schedule contrasts the Polish and Russian/Soviet views of the population shifts in Poland
during the Second World War. The Soviets count the population of the annexed territory in their population base in 1941. The Poles on the other hand assume that the Soviets pick up the surviving  population after the war in 1945.
--Berndd11222 02:09, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Poland Population 1939-50''' 

message: USSR Population 1939-46
Description               	Amount
Population 1/1/39         	168,525,000
Natural Increase 1939-1946	10,350,000
War Losses                	(26,600,000)
Net Population            	19,650,000
Population 12/31/46       	172,105,000
 Source:Andreev, EM, et al. NASELENIE SOVETSKOGO SOIUZA, 1922-1991. Moscow, Nauka, 1993.
This schedule summarizes the balance of the Soviet population from 1939-1946. The beginning population is based on the revised census data for 1939. The Natural increase is based on live births and an assumed death rate at pre-war levels. The war losses are those losses in excess of the pre-war death rate including an increase in infant mortality of 1.3 million. The Population of the annexed territories is net of all transfers up until 12/31/46. The ending population of 1946 is an estimate. The first post war Soviet census was taken in 1959.--Berndd11222 11:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''USSR Population 1939-46<br>''' 

message: USSR War Losses 1941-1945
Description                  	Amount
Recorded Military Losses     	8,600,000
Other Losses                 	18,000,000
Victims of Soviet Repression 	1,700,000
Total Losses                 	28,300,000
Less:                        	
Losses in Annexed territories	(3,400,000)
Losses with German Forces    	(200,000)
Victims of Soviet Repression 	(1,700,000)
Net Soviet War Losses        	23,000,000
--Berndd11222 11:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''USSR War Losses 1941-1945<br>''' 

message: Population of Territories Annexed by USSR 1939-45
Description              	Amount
Poland                   	10,000,000
Baltic States            	5,350,000
Romania                  	3,500,000
Czechoslovakia           	700,000
Tanna Tuva               	100,000
Total Annexed territories	19,650,000
Sources:
Andreev, EM, et al. NASELENIE SOVETSKOGO SOIUZA, 1922-1991. Moscow, Nauka, 1993.
Russian Academy of Sciences-Ludskie Poteri SSSR. St. Petersburg 1995 .
| Note: Balance net after population transfers and repatrations.--Berndd11222 11:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Population of Territories Annexed by USSR 1939-45<br>''' 

message: Equipment losses and weapons production of USSR in World War 2 are detailed in *G. I. Kirosheev Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses. Greenhill 1997 
--Berndd11222 21:22, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Equipment losses USSR 

message: One often sees the statistic of 6 Million as being the losses of Poland in the Second World War. The origin of this figure is an official Polish government report prepared in 1947. The report used as its base population 27,007,000 Poles and Jews out of total population of 34,849,000 in 1939. The allocation was based on the 1931 census based on language usage. In this total were 5,193,000 Poles and Jews in the territory that was ceded to the USSR in 1945. The report concluded that total losses were 6,028,000 without giving any detail of how it was calculated. The reader was expected to accept the word of the Polish government at face value. This statistic was accepted by historians for over forty years as being correct. After the fall of communism in Poland historians analyzed the question of losses during the Second World War. A conference was held in Warsaw in 1993 on the topic of war losses and the conclusion reached was that Poland lost 3 million Jews and 1.8 to 2.0 million ethnic Poles. Why was the total lowered by 1.0 to 1.2 million? The primary reason was that 1.4 million Poles were denied permission leave the USSR after the war or they choose to stay. When the report was prepared in 1947 the government in Warsaw assumed that all Poles had been repatriated and the remainder were war losses. Also after 1947 Polish demographers determined that the population grew by 300,000 more than what was originally thought which increased war losses.
The population base used to calculate Polish losses has been expanded recently to include the other ethnic groups in Poland in 1939, ethnic Ukrainians, Byelorussians and Germans. By adding these other ethnic groups one can increase losses by including all Polish citizens in 1939.
:SOURCES
:Poles as Victims of the Nazi Era  prepared by USHMM
:See remarks by Prof. Tadeuz Piotrowski on Polish casualties.. 
:Both articles appeared in the Polish Journal Dzieje Najnowsze # 2- 1994
:Czesław Łuczak - Szanse i trudności bilansu demograficcznego Polski w latach 1939-1945
:Krystyna Kersten- Szacunek strat osobowych w Polsce Wschodniej
--Berndd11222 00:56, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why Poland did not loose 6 Million in WW2 

message: Why is it that Germany lists 5.5 million deaths in top table, but only ~2 million if you add the 3 branches?
USSR is missing 2 million as well...  It seems that the totals may have different sources.  Shouldn't this be explictly discussed in the article?
You are quite correct. Germany and USSR have been updated to tie out to the main table and the sources cited.--Berndd11222 12:22, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  missing deaths in "branches of service" table? 

message: Hi! I have managed to find out a way how to right-align column in tables, which I think makes them more easy to read. Thanks to experienced wikipedians, I have found out this way: put the code style="text-align: right" in the very beginning of the table (in this case after . This will make the ENTIRE table right-aligned. Then we have to put style="text-align: left" in every cell which we want to be left-aligned (in this case only the left one, for countries).
I hope you find the new layout better. Regards, Dennis Nilsson.-Dna-Dennis 05:56, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table layout 

message: Why arent there any moroccan civilian/militairy casualties listed. Its a bit absurd to put them under France (i dont know if you did that), cause the soldiers were being send by the King of Morocco! At least 80.000 Moroccan soldiers died during operations in Europe, actually without them, the operation in Italy wouldnt have been a succes at all.
Morocco was a French colony during World War Two and Moroccan military losses are included with the French Army. In the footnote on France there is mention that includes 22,000 Africans among the French dead. Vadim Erlikman in his Poteri narodonaseleniia v XX veke : spravochnik.  Moscow 2004.  , lists 1,500 Moroccan military dead in the war of soldiers in the French Army. However you do have a valid point since the Philippines a US colony has separate military losses listed, Americans did not consider them as part of their Armed Forces. In any case a footnote listing each African nation and its losses with the French, UK and Italian forces could be listed based on the data in Vadim Erlikman.--Berndd11222 12:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The difference between the Philippines and Morocco was political. The former was termed a "commonwealth", which in this case meant a semi-independent colonial territory of the US. French overseas departments were and are considered to be normal, integral parts of France, whether or not they wished to be. Personally, I think that there is a case for considering all such countries separately, regardless of their formal legal status. Grant65 | Talk 15:28, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

text: If there is some other way around it, such as changing headings, or adding footnotes to existing headings, then maybe that would be a better option. Unltimately I think we should consider all  countries which existed at the time separately, regardless of which side the individuals fought on. As has been noted, we count the Philippines as separate from the US; Indian Army losses are separate from British Army losses. I don't think it would be practical, or good historical practice to consider e.g. Ukrainian losses or Pakistani losses in WW2. But Morocco and Senegal are quite different cases, I think. Grant65 | Talk 00:11, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Three points just occurred to me: (1) the British also made extensive use of African brigades/divisions in the Burma campaign, which should be quite easy to count, and; (2) the US Army in the Philippines, as distinct from the Philippine Army, had Philippine Scouts units, which were recruited and formed locally but had American officers. So it is probable that a majority of the Allied troops in the Philippines were Filipinos. I would guess as well that they were included in US Army losses and these may be more difficult to separate. (3) The Japanese recuited/drafted extensively in Korea and Taiwan. I think, but I'm not sure, that these individuals were mainly used in support roles such as POW camp guards, but I could be wrong. But they may be impossible to separate. Grant65 | Talk 00:25, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personnel serving in the forces of other countries 

message: Response to edit by 67.65.59.220
John Dower's estimate of Chinas losses of 10 million is posted to the casualties page. Dower is a well known and respected historian, that is why his estimate is listed. The fact of the matter is that prior to the war there was no accurate census of the population. We can only estimate losses based on the postwar population of China. R. J. Rummel has cited many sources estimating China's losses that range up to 37 million, please see the footnote on China. Rummel's  China's Bloody Century . Transaction 1991  goes into detail on the topic of China's human losses in the last century and he cites the sources of his data. If 
you have a sources for those figures you posted please share them with us. In particular if there are Chinese sources that would back up the losses you cite. Without reliable sources to cite there is no justification to change John Dowers estimate.
--Berndd11222 16:23, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chinas Losses 

message: Hi! I removed the links The Holocaust and Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki from the "See also" section due to the fact that they were already present in the template. But, alas, my conscience has given me second thoughts; maybe it's only because I am tired, but it suddenly felt horrible to unlink those links, considering their immense terror and impact. Therefore an idea struck me, but I did not feel bold enough to do it, since others are working constantly on this article. To the point: my idea is to perhaps have a section in this article which names and shortly describes the most significant events concerning the loss of life. It does not need to be detailed but maybe worth mentioning. Too tired to think clearly, but the atom bombs, holocaust, bombing of Dresden, Leningrad and Stalingrad are all good contenders. But you guys know more, so I leave it to you...I supply a copy here of the short info that was deleted by my removal of the links:
* Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killed at least 100,000 civilians outright and many more over time
* The Holocaust, Nazi Germany's systematic genocide (ethnic cleansing) of various ethnic, religious, national, and secular groups during World War II 
My regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 09:15, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding my changes 

message: I have replaced the two piecharts with new ones based on the new values. Now the piecharts also show the percentage in numbers (better in my opinion). Feel free to comment them here below (maybe you hate the colors, but Excel did not give me many options - colors loosely based on flag colors). 
I have also added a brand new piechart - with military & civilian percentages and by alliances. 
My regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis talk - contribs 06:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New piecharts 

message: To the user who posted the 10 million Chinese figures. The 1931 Yellow River flood killed 4 million and and the 1938 flood killed 1 million people. That's 5 million people dead in just 2 incidents in a span of several months. Yet you want people to believe in almost a decade of war, all Chinese deaths due to bombings, massacres, battles, disease, wounds, POWs, drought, and famine COMBINED were only 10 million? If you're going to post figures, post something logical.--Secret Agent Man 16:43, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Who didn't post sources? Certainly it wasn't me. All the figures of which I modified all included specific sources. Yet everytime I post a figure, some vandal continues to come here and deliberately delete everything and replaces it. In fact, it's not even about the figures. What I don't appreciate is the fact that the vandal completely disregards any other source besides his/her own. It's simply not right. Chinese & USSR figures 1, Chinese & USSR figures 2, Chinese & USSR figures 3--Secret Agent Man 18:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Once again, my point is not about the figures themselves. It's the fact that you or someone else continues to delete everybody else's information. You waive off all other sources that are just as, if not more, credible than Dower. Matthew White's website compiles dozens of reliable WWII casualty sources and averages them. This is how this page should be done. That site doesn't single out any one source like this page does. How can Wikipedia survive if everybody just singled out one source? Dower doesn't deserve to be singled out any more than Rummel or Hammond or any other well known reliable source.--Secret Agent Man 06:56, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chinese figures 

message: Am I understanding this article correctly... The Allied strategic bombing that flattened the cities in WWII was supposed to have only have killed a proportional 5% of the civilian population? Where exactly did these figures come from, the offical department of propaganda in the Royal Air Force? Oh wait, I see...when cities are designated as military targets, EVERYONE is defined as military targets! Someone needs to carefully reevaluate these figures and do a better explaination. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.1.102 (talk • contribs) 
:The official German total of dead from allied bombing was 430,000 which was published in 1955 in Wirtschaft und Statistik. Japanese losses were 394,000 per John Dower. Most civilians were evacuated from the cities in Germany and Japan and escaped Allied raids. 
:The UK official total from the Blitiz is 60,600. Italian losses due to allied bombing are listed at 65,000 in the link posted in the footnote on Italy. Losses in other countries are real soft estimates . Does that answer the question? --Berndd11222 19:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Civilan Bombing losses