Talk:Tupac Shakur/Archive 2

message: An addition was made to the second shooting: By the time the newspaper made this contention, Wallace himself had been murderd, however Wallace's family and associates have claimed that Wallace was not in Las Vegas on that night and denied that Wallace had anything to do with the incident.
Is there a source for this information? KillerChihuahua?!? 01:52, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I cleaned up the Theories of the Crime sub-section, but a lot of the material in there needs to be sourced.  I'm not sure where a lot of this info. came from; I imagine from some of the books that sprang up to explain the theories out there.  If anyone can point us to the newspaper articles or books where this info. came from, it'd be appreciated.  Thanks.SqlPac 04:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Second shooting: Wallace

message: I'd like to see some information focusing on the popular belief that Tupac faked his own death. Yes, it's highly implausible, but it deserves some coverage in this article.
:some of that information i've compiled at User:Kingturtle/2Pac. maybe someone could write a short summary in Tupac Shakur and the start an article called Tupac Shakur conspiracy theory. Kingturtle 19:53, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Strongly advise not starting a fork to a conspiracy article. KillerChihuahua?!? 21:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death 

message: 138.217.17.5 07:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Negative.  I sent an email to his mother's representatives requesting official verification but was told that Afeni Shakur does not meet the requirements to be considered 'authoritative' under WP:V and WP:CITE.
That was his birth name. 
* http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Lesane+Parish+Crooks&btnG=Google+Search
* http://www.2pac2k.de/name.html
* http://www.studentcentral.co.uk/unsolved_murder_lesane_parish_crooks_more_widely_4318/
* http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/entertainers/music/tupac-shakur/
* http://www.nndb.com/people/548/000024476/
* http://skitzo11004.tripod.com/
That was his name his mother even said so. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.34.130.105 (talk • contribs) 17:53, 28 February 2006  (UTC)
None of those are sources which meet wikipedia's WP:V standards. Please continue to post any sources you find, as hopefully one will meet standards and we will be able to add this information. Thanks! KillerChihuahua?!? 18:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Not blaming you, some odd things have been happening with edits. I meant to re-fix your typo after rolling back, sorry about that - I was called away and just got back to the computer. KillerChihuahua?!? 19:12, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I am sorry to hear that you find one of Wikipedia's three primary policies "stupid" and look forward to you finding a source which meets WP:V criteria; until then, please try to avoid making personal attacks, and sign all your posts with four tildes ( ~~~~  - thanks! KillerChihuahua?!? 00:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Thugz-network is not a reliable source for anything. Please do not make disruptive edits against consensus. Please also note that none of the articles and/or sources listed above meet WP:V or WP:RS criteria. KillerChihuahua?!? 17:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth Name Dispute 

message: Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words
Here are some weasel words that are often found in Wikipedia articles:
* "Some people say..."
* "Research has shown..." 
* "...is widely regarded as..."
* "It is believed that..."
* "It has been suggested/noticed/decided..."
* "Some people believe..."
* "Many people say..."
* "Critics/Experts say that..."
* "Some historians argue..."
* "Considered by many..."
* "Accusations..."
* "Apparently..."
* "Allegedly..."
* "Serious scholars/scientists/researchers..."
* "Mainstream scholars/scientists/researchers..."
* "The (mainstream) scientific community"
And don't even think about adding an "arguably."  That does not factualize a weasely sentence.
EDITED 2/28/06
YOU CAN'T JUST CALL SOMEONE JUST ACCUSE SOMEONE OF SOMETHING AND CALL THEM FOR EXAMPLE A DRUG DEALER. YOU NEED TO CALL HIM AN ALLEGED DRUG DEALER. IF YOU MENTION SOMETHING THAT IS NOT PROVEN TRUE YOU NEED TO USE THOSE WORDS. -Steel
I think the word alleged can be removed in this sentence "After serving 8 months of his sentence for the alleged assault" at least. He was convicted for the assult, so I wouldn't call it alleged any more. --Frol 22:04, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  weasel words 

message: I think this whole new entry is so so inappropriate I can't even explain (there's so much reasons, I could enumerate them all day long). Is there any possibility to speedy delete a section like this without getting into a "revert-war"?? Can we start a voting on it? Imagine what could happen if someone begins to add such a list of "evidences" on every dead men's article... Should we now add Died? into Tupac's infobox (with a question sign) or what?
I think it would be merely enough to have a note at the bottom of the page about fan's belief of he being alive, like in Elvis Presley's article. Or simply ignore it like in Adolf Hitler's (where you can't edit the page on your own, and this kind of idea was voted down on its talkpage, when the case had been brought up).Though there has been a talkpage stuff on this very page too, and someone disproved all the "evidences" with justifiable reasons.
Reconsider all this. Voting stands on 1-0 for delete.
Lajbi 14:35, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Voting is evil. I have been bold and removed it as unsourced speculation. KillerChihuahua?!? 14:45, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Added a couple of sentences to the Theories of the Crime subsection concerning the Alive Theories.  Those theories, unfortunately, have no verifiable facts to back them up - just a lot of hocus-pocus forced symbolism and amateur numerology.SqlPac 04:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was a silly joke with this voting I suggested. I was curious about hearing other's opinion. That was the main purpose. And I was a bit raged that all these people making edits on Tupac thought seriously that this disputed one fits ans should stay (and even reformatted it). That's all. But I hope other's logic is the same as ours', and won't revert it by their belief.Lajbi 14:56, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: That is a logical fallacy - that we do not include rumour, speculation, and unsourced meanderings does not even remotely translate into "we should remove a category." KillerChihuahua?!? 03:52, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 
Alive Theories


message: I removed this sentence: "He is consistently ranked by uninformed fans, industry outsiders and deaf music critics as the greatest rapper of all time."
I don't think this statement is discussion-worthy.  It's deftinitely not NPOV.
Inner City Blues 15:29, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That was vandalism. I reverted it. KillerChihuahua?!? 15:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I have trimmed that assertion from the intro. KillerChihuahua?!? 12:21, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Introduction

message: This article doesn't discuss Tupac's childhood at all.  Considering that his mother believes that an arts program kept Tupac off drugs, shouldn't there be a paragraph or two discussing his youth? JDoorjam     Talk 04:27, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the whole arts program is barely glanced on as well as the rest of his childhood. I've added a "to-do" list. Please discuss and add as appropriate - thanks! KillerChihuahua?!? 19:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Childhood

message: Politics
Tupac has always stated that he would like to be involved in politics. A lot of his music can be classified as 'political rap' and expressed concern about the way the United States was being run.
The fact is Tupac could never run for office because of his criminal record, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be heavily involved in other political aspects such as organizing protests and rallies and supporting other political candidates. Tupac could have started his own political party and had someone else run for office instead of him.
Tupac had a charisma that made people listen to him, he was a born leader and people would have followed him. He knew what the people needed and wanted, and he could have made a difference. He would of made a difference.
I would like to add that.
    * http://www.2pac2k.de/alleyezonhim.html
    * http://www.thugz-network.com/Tupac~Shakur~Interview~AEOH.php
Those are two sources.
[[[User:License2Kill|License2Kill]] 05:02, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no reason not to add it. Write the section and add it, make sure you can cite what you're adding as much as possible. (I know I've run across other articles that mention his political ambitions. I'll see if I can dig any up when I have a little more time.) —Seqsea (talk) 05:41, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see a reason why not: the two sources given are a little questionable. KillerChihuahua?!? 13:29, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks, I have replied there. KillerChihuahua?!? 19:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Politics 

message: * Find sources and add for all unsourced material
    * Add section on childhood, early adulthood
    * Add section on music per Featured music:
          o Comprehensiveness: Very little on influences, style and legacy
          o Pictures: Needs fair use rationales
          o Audio: None
          o References: Insufficient
          o Format/Style: Cleanup
We got to get thise stuff fixed. I can add music but I do not know how. [[[User:License2Kill|License2Kill]] 05:02, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we're making good progress, but the Audio, References and Fair Use rationales still need to be addressed.  Anyone?SqlPac 04:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tasks 

message: I added a new section called "The Early Years" to cover Tupac's childhood and teenage years, right up to the point where he achieved his first fame as an entertainer ("Same Song" single released on "This is an EP Release" album by Digital Underground).  I didn't want to go too deeply into his mother's life in this section (i.e., her birth name, her birth in North Carolina and subsequent move to NY, man-troubles, cocaine problems, Black Panthers, legal battles, etc.) since she has her own article on Wiki.  But I think some of it, which I did mention, is important since Tupac's own life was obviously strongly intertwined with and influenced by his mother's life and actions during those early years.  I also mentioned that his birth certificate states he was born "Tupac Amaru Shakur".  It also states that he was born in Manhattan, NY, which is backed up by his mother's official bio (see article for link).69.125.149.243
Also edited the "Rise to Fame" section.  A lot of the info in this section could probably be divided out into another section about his "Legal Problems".  Just a thought...69.125.149.243 18:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wonderful, thank you so much!. Please register again, seriously. I'd like to have something to call you besides "69.125.149.243". I could call you 69, but I'd probably get in trouble. :P KillerChihuahua?!? 23:24, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, 69 here.  I've re-registered now.  You know, a section on the investigation of his death might not be a bad idea...  there are a lot of claims of conspiracy and incompetence by the police - in particular the Las Vegas PD.  Also, whoever keeps changing that intro to read things like "he's the greatest, most imitated, most bestest person the world has ever known" is obviously a very enthusiastic fan, but all that is very subjective, and will keep us from getting Tupac to FEATURED STATUS on Wiki where he belongs.  I think all the true Pac fans out here believe he deserves no less from us.SqlPac 03:19, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree. That's why I checked out LAbyrinth as mentioned above. I've only had enough time to read 1/2 of the first chapter so far. Life is a little hectic for me right now. KillerChihuahua?!? 07:05, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was watching a news report/documentary about the investigation a while back, and apparently the LVPD refused to interview some potential gang informants and suspects in the shooting; because they didn't want to cooperate with the LAPD's highly regarded (at the time) Compton gang unit.  I wish I had taped that show - lot of good information and interviews/quotes by the LVPD and LAPD.  BTW, I'm considering putting a graphical timeline of major events in Tupac's life in the article.  Are there size limitations, display limitations, or guidelines, etc. for something like that?  Thanks.  SqlPac 14:28, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That might be better as a child article - if you are talking about a linear timeline. See Timeline of computing and Timeline of World War II for two different approaches to presentation and formatting. If you create a timeline, be sure to link to it from this article and vice-versa. KillerChihuahua?!? 11:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to add a timeline of notable events in Tupac's life, but I'm not too happy with the formats available on Wiki.  I'll play around with it and see if I can come up with a format that looks acceptable.  In particular, the text on some of these timelines looks like garbage (at least in IE).  If you have any tips for making a decent looking timeline, I'd appreciate it... otherwise I'll just play around with it until I find something.SqlPac 02:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New Section:  The Early Years

message: We have a nice section on Tupac's discography.  Can we:
  1.  Display all of the album covers for his albums?
  2.  List all of his 'guest appearances' on other albums to complete his discography?
Just some random thoughts.12.110.196.19 22:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm hesitant to add all of the album covers, because I very much doubt that such a thing is appropriate under Wikipedia:Fair Use. Unless we are going to discuss each one critically on this page, I don't think we can add all of the images. Note that all of his albums do have separate pages which show the album's cover. (Incidentally, most of those articles could do with more discussion of the work, but that's neither here nor there.) As for his guest appearances, I have no opinion, other than that including them could potentially increase the size of the page without actually adding all that much. Seqsea (talk) 23:51, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Under the doctrine of fair use, as I understand it (and I'm no lawyer), this is 1) an academic endeavor (i.e., not for profit), 2) the digitized album cover is not substantive to the album itself (i.e., we're not providing all of his songs in MP3 format a la Napster), 3) Displaying the album covers in the context of this article does not have an effect on the value of the albums themselves (other than possibly helping to increase sales via free advertising).  Does that sound about right?  Thanks.SqlPac 02:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Concur, what we need is not more trivia, we need a serious analysis of his music. Guest appearances might end up being listcruft in an already problematic article; I have included his Salt'n'Pepa video appearance because it won a major award, and because at some point I hope to include his dance experience, but would not object to its removal. KillerChihuahua?!? 16:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm hesitant about analyzing his music too deeply.  You're talking a lot of subjectivity anytime you try to analyze or critique art.  Even if all you did was cut-and-paste quotes directly from major magazines, subjectivity is still going to show through in which quotes you decide to include or exclude.  Or maybe we're talking about different definitions of the word 'analysis'?  I think a complete discography would add value to the article, but I understand your position.  Some might not be happy with the labeling of Tupac's life's work as "trivia".  Can we at least add the complete list of his songs that hit the Top 40 over the years?  Never mind, I see that was already done.  Thx. SqlPac 00:52, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Guest Appearances

message: I have removed a recently added, completely unsourced, possibly un-encyclopedic section on tattoos. My position: Keep it for fan pages. This article does not need another list of trivia. We have nothing on serious, important aspects of his life and death, in an article which is already a little long. If you want to improve the article, help with the "to-do" list above, remembering to add sources per WP:V, WP:CITE, and WP:RS]]. If we ever manage to get some of his philosphy in the article, we may incorporate some of his tattoos, as part of the article, not as a list of fancruft trivia. KillerChihuahua?!? 16:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tattoos

message: I am adding source references and content as I slowly make my way through LAbyrinth; I will be trying to get other books and doing the same. I realize the footnotes are not exactly optimized right now; please bear with me and I will tidy when I've exhausted the book. KillerChihuahua?!? 11:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Footnotes and references

message: Shouldn't we include a live concert album of the former Death Row artists called Untouchable - A West Coast dynasty, that is a rare one, released possibly by Suge knight, and distributed in Japan? Although it has almost all the same songs from 2pac as the Live at the House of Blues has, but they were recorded elsewhere. As far as I know it also has also a DVD version under the same name.
Tracklist:
HMV Japan
#suge knight - intro                                               
#danny boy - rock n roll                                           
#danny boy - slip n side (remix)                                   
#2pac - ambitionz az a ridah                                       
#2pac - shed so many tearz                                         
#2pac - troublesome 96                                             
#2pac - hitemup                                                    
#2pac - tatoo tearz                                                
#2pac - all about u                                                
#2pac - never call u bitch again                                   
#2pac - jodeci interlude                                           
#2pac - how do u want it (feat. jodeci)                            
#va - chris tucker, eddie griffin and dolomite                     
#snoop dogg - i dont hang                                          
#tha dogg pound - what would u do                                  
#snoop doog - murder was the case                                  
#snoop dogg - tha shiznit                                          
#tha dogg pound - if we all                                        
#tha dogg pound - bomb azz pussy                                   
#snoop doog - aint no fun                                          
#tha dogg pound - new york new york                                
#tha dog pound - big pimpin (outro)
Lajbi 01:00, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, I don't see why not.  Add it - if someone has a problem with it, they'll let you know.SqlPac 04:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A forgotten concert compilation?

message: I removed the section called 'Discography', since it's contents were moved elsewhere and it only contained a single sentence (which, BTW, was stated in the Intro as well).  I renamed the 'Albums' section to 'Discography'.  I've also added a section called Legacy which discusses the Tupac Amaru Shakur Foundation, the Tupac Amaru Shakur Center for the Arts and the Harvard conference.  Although I've edited it down quite a bit, someone will probably want to whittle it down even more significantly.  So what's left on the list?  Can a brotha get a update?  When can we submit this thing to get it on Fizzeatured Stizzatus?  Bling Bling baby. SqlPac 02:29, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I edited the Legacy section down quite a bit.  I also reformatted the Singles section with some nice tables in place of that jagged bulleted-list format.  BTW, does anyone know what "AUS Charts" are?  I thought it might be a typo for US Charts, but wasn't sure (It could be Australian Charts, or something else), so I left it for now.  It's in the singles section at the bottom.  Can someone verify that "AUS Charts" is correct?  Thanks.SqlPac 17:40, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Little clean-up on the Awards section as well, to make it a little more readable.  Thx.SqlPac 17:52, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Legacy

message: Lots of books about him, maybe we should list them in a "Further Reading" section? –Tutmøsis · (Msg Me) 00:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, but I think we should probably pick the "best of the best" since there are so many books about him.  Maybe we could use the Tupac books recognized on best-seller lists as a starting point?  At some point we should probably narrow down and clean up some of the other sections, like the Second Shooting section, to make room for some of this additional information that's been asked for...SqlPac 18:10, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Books 

message: I added a section on Styles and Influences.  Someone might want to edit it down a little, I see that there are size warnings up there on the page.  Also, on another topic, the second shooting section could probably be trimmed down quite a bit.  Thx. SqlPac 18:05, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Styles and Influences 

message: I cleaned up the Second Shooting section, and added a sub-section about the Theories of the Crime.  I moved the post-shooting theories information to this sub-section.  I cleaned it up a little bit, but it could probably use some narrowing-down, as it's pretty long.SqlPac 16:56, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added Theories of the Crime sub-section