Talk:Na-Dene languages

message: One point - Na-Dene strictly refers to Athabaskan-Eyak-Tlingit+Haida(Which is strongly contested as a language family.), whereas this page only refers to Athabaskan-Eyak-Tlingit.  Should it be moved? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.254.128.5 (talk • contribs) .
:I have always been under the impression that Na-Dené refers to Althabaskan-Eyak-Tlingit, and that although Haida was once considered part of the family and linguists will still occasionally make proposals for its conclusion, there is no significant evidence.
:Of course according to Greenberg's usage of the term, it does indeed include Haida (which has many similarities to the Na-Dené languages) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Node ue (talk • contribs) .
::Na-Dene is used in two senses:
::# Sapir's Na-Dene: includes Haida
::# current Na-Dene: does not include Haida
::Sometimes Athabaskan-Eyak-Tlingit is used instead of Na-Dene so that there wont be any confusion with Sapir's Na-Dene. — ishwar  (SPEAK) 19:36, 2005 Apr 17 (UTC)
:::The term Na-Dené is composed of na, the Haida word for 'house', and dené, a version of the common Athabaskan term for 'person'.  Strictly speaking, "Na-Dené" explicitly includes Haida and therefore should not be used for Tlingit-Eyak-Athabaskan. --N. Pharris (talk) 09:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Enrico's recent work (including a massive 2-vol dictionary of Haida) effectively re-opens the controversy. I added a sentence on Enrico and also some references on the controversy. --Gholton 20:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was proved that Na-Dene speakers came from southern Siberia/Mongolia. Their genetic origin is the same like in speakers of the Altaic family. So, was there any attempt to connect them with the Altaic speakers? The Dene-Caucasian theory is an utter nonsense, by the way. It connects populations that have absolutely nothing in common genetically. 82.100.61.114 08:11, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This makes no sense. You're confusing genetic and linguistic findings, which really don't need to have anything to do with each other: one cannot make any linguistic conclusions from genetic data (or vice versa). Comparative linguistics classifies languages, not their speakers. --AAikio 12:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Why the accent Na-Dené rather than Na-Dene? I have only seen the unaccented version in print. --Gholton 20:54, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  accent? 

message: What is the etymology of the name "Na-Dené"? It does not seem very obvious. --Tropylium (talk) 21:36, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: it comes from the common word for "human" in the languages which is either related to the root dené.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 21:40, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name? 

message: The link between the Yeniseian and Athabaskan-Eyak-Tlingit seems to have been proven (http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/dy2008.html). I'll try to mention this in the article somehow as soon as I have some time. Cheers! --Pet'usek [petrdothrubisatgmaildotcom] 10:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This does look very promising indeed.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 12:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a link to Vajda's paper. I also removed a sentence about how the Athabaskan/Eyak/Tlingit-Yeniseian link "support[s] the controversial theory of Starostin and others." An AET-Yeniseian link has nothing to say one way or another about whether or not these languages are in turn related to, say, Caucasian or Sino-Tibetan or whatever, so to say it lends any support to Starostin's (and others') wider-ranging proposals is false. --Miskwito (talk) 20:57, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, update: I created a new subsection within the genetic relationships section to discuss the Dene-Yeniseic link. I also removed a statement about genetic studies contradicting the evidence (which had originally said the study confirmed the evidence). Genes and languages don't necessarily correspond, so genetic studies can't prove or disprove linguistic relationships one way or another, although they can make suggestions. --Miskwito (talk) 21:28, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Are there plans to create a higher-level Dene-Yeniseic taxonomic classification in the infoboxes? Would anyone object if I added this to the infobox? Thefamouseccles (talk) 08:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dené-Yeniseic 

message: It was on the nightly radio news show As It Happens tonight - the 3rd of April programme I guess.  I'm not sure if it's suitable for the External Links, but chances are there'll be a permanent online recording of the show; I think As it Happens is fully archived....not sure about that but worth checking...Skookum1 (talk) 05:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: CBC Radio interview with Vajda

message: I will work on a table of AET correspondences here (see Leer (2008)). As soon as you consider it good enough, you can put it into the article.
Obstruent Correspondences                	Obstruent Correspondences                	Obstruent Correspondences                	Obstruent Correspondences                	Obstruent Correspondences                	Obstruent Correspondences
PAET                                     	PAE                                      	PA                                       	Eyak                                     	Tlingit                                  	Tlingit
PAET                                     	PAE                                      	PA                                       	Eyak                                     	Normal                                   	L-assim.
d                                        	d                                        	d                                        	d                                        	d                                        	
t                                        	t                                        	t                                        	t                                        	t                                        	
tʼ                                       	tʼ                                       	tʼ                                       	tʼ                                       	tʼ                                       	
ɬ                                        	ɬ                                        	ɬ~l                                      	ɬ                                        	ɬ                                        	
tɬʼ                                      	tɬʼ                                      	tɬʼ                                      	tɬʼ                                      	ɬʼ, tɬʼ                                  	
s                                        	s                                        	s~z                                      	s                                        	s                                        	ʃ
ts                                       	ts                                       	ts                                       	ts                                       	ts                                       	tɬ
tsʼ                                      	tsʼ                                      	tsʼ                                      	tsʼ                                      	sʼ, tsʼ                                  	tɬʼ, ɬ
ʃ                                        	ʃ                                        	ʂ~ʐ                                      	ʃ (s)                                    	ʃ (s)                                    	ɬ
dʒ                                       	dʒ                                       	dʒ                                       	dʒ                                       	dʒ                                       	?
tʃ                                       	tʃ                                       	tʃ                                       	tʃ                                       	tʃ (ts)                                  	tɬ
tʃʼ                                      	tʃʼ                                      	tʃʼ                                      	tʃʼ                                      	sʼ, tʃʼ (tsʼ)                            	tɬʼ
xʲ                                       	s                                        	s~z                                      	s; ʃ                                     	x                                        	
gʲ                                       	dz                                       	[dz,] s~z                                	dz                                       	g                                        	
kʲ                                       	ts                                       	ts                                       	ts                                       	k; ʃ                                     	
kʼʲ                                      	tsʼ                                      	tsʼ                                      	tsʼ                                      	kʼ                                       	
x                                        	x                                        	xʲ~j                                     	x                                        	x                                        	
g                                        	g                                        	gʲ                                       	g                                        	g(ʷ)                                     	
k                                        	k                                        	kʲ                                       	k                                        	k(ʷ)                                     	
kʼ                                       	kʼ                                       	kʼʲ                                      	kʼ                                       	xʼ(ʷ), kʼ(ʷ)                             	
xʷ                                       	xʷ                                       	ʂ~ʐ                                      	xʷ > x                                   	x                                        	
gʷ                                       	gʷ                                       	ɖʐ                                       	gʷ > g                                   	g(ʷ)                                     	
kʷ                                       	kʷ                                       	ʈʂ                                       	kʷ > k                                   	k(ʷ)                                     	
kʼʷ                                      	kʼʷ                                      	ʈʂʼ                                      	kʼʷ > kʼ                                 	xʼ(ʷ), kʼ(ʷ)                             	
χ                                        	χ                                        	χ~ʁ                                      	χ                                        	χ(ʷ)                                     	
ɢ                                        	ɢ                                        	ɢ                                        	ɢ                                        	ɢ(ʷ)                                     	
q                                        	q                                        	q                                        	q                                        	q(ʷ)                                     	
qʼ                                       	qʼ                                       	qʼ                                       	qʼ                                       	χʼ(ʷ)                                    	
χʷ                                       	χʷ                                       	/χʷ/ > χ~ʁ                               	χʷ                                       	χ(ʷ)                                     	
ɢʷ                                       	ɢʷ                                       	/ɢʷ/ > ɢ                                 	ɢ                                        	ɢ(ʷ)                                     	
qʷ                                       	qʷ                                       	/qʷ/ > q                                 	q                                        	q(ʷ)                                     	
qʼʷ                                      	qʼʷ                                      	/qʼʷ/ > qʼ                               	qʼ                                       	χʼ, qʼ(ʷ)                                	
Extrasystematic fricative correspondences	Extrasystematic fricative correspondences	Extrasystematic fricative correspondences	Extrasystematic fricative correspondences	Extrasystematic fricative correspondences	Extrasystematic fricative correspondences
sx                                       	x                                        	xʲ~j                                     	x                                        	s                                        	
ʃx                                       	x                                        	xʲ~j                                     	ʃ                                        	ʃ                                        	
$                                        	x(ʷ) ?                                   	$ (ʃ~xʲ)                                 	xʷ > x; s                                	χ                                        	
Notes:
#PAET, PAE and PA stand for Proto-Athabaskan-Eyak-Tlingit, Proto-Athabaskan-Eyak and Proto-Athabaskan, respectively.
#To prevent cluttering the table, phonemes in the PAET, PAE and PA columns are not asterisked.
#Leer (2008) doesn't reconstruct the PAET affricates */dɮ/, */tɬ/ and */dz/. Judging from their rarity, he assumes they may be attributable to the resolution of former consonant clusters.
#In Athabaskan and Eyak, sibilants can be diminutive variants of shibilants. In Tlingit, on the other hand, shibilants might sometimes be diminutive variants of sibilants. These correspondences are in parentheses.
See Leer (2008) for more details.--Pet'usek [petrdothrubisatgmaildotcom] 08:58, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: AET Correspondences

message: On all such maps, including the one for Athabaskan languages on that page, the map shows former language-territories as if they were still extant; the Nicola language of the Nicola Athapaskans for instance, which is now entirely Salishan territory.  Ditto with the little blotch of territory on the Oregon Cost; these should be coloured differently to indicate they are extinct.Skookum1 (talk) 14:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: On the other hand, if we only showed current distributions of the languages, where would be Eyak (which is gone forever)? I agree there should be a more detailed map (or, perhaps, several maps, each focusing on different eras). Unfortunately, I have neither skills nor the necessary tools nor the necessary knowledge to create such maps :( --Pet'usek [petrdothrubisatgmaildotcom] 10:59, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Extinct languages and the map

message: When was the idea first proposed that Athabaskan/Na-Dene was a more recent migration to America than other families? Was it Greenberg, or did he adopt a preexisting view? kwami (talk) 21:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears to have originated with Sapir judging from Campbell 1997 (go to the end of p. 109). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:47, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  concept of recent migration 

message: The quotation of Krauss and Golla (1981) in Campbell 1997 does not make it appear as if the inclusion of Tlingit in Na-Dené is really as cut-and-dried an issue as Wikipedia claims. A "close resemblance [...] in phonology" is irrelevant for this purpose, just like "grammatical structure" as both point to areal phenomena – i. e., probably a contact explanation, especially given the "little regular correspondence in vocabulary", which again points to contact, in the form of plain old borrowing.
(Of course, if "grammatical structure" does not refer to superficial typological similarity – along the lines of metatypy –, but material correspondences in the morphology, the case for genetic relationship would be much stronger, since morphological evidence for relationship is much more important than lexical evidence, after all. But I doubt that that is what is meant by the authors here.) --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:33, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine, per , Jeff Leer's reconstructions appear to have vindicated the inclusion of Tlingit. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 12:53, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion of Tlingit 

message: See  and . North American Na-Dene family (traditionally spoken in Alaska, Canada and parts of the present-day U.S.) and the Asian Yeneseian family are said to "both appear to descend from an ancestral language that can be traced to the Beringia region. Both Siberia and North America, it seems, were settled by the descendants of a community that lived in Beringia for some time. In other words, Sicoli says, "this makes it look like Beringia wasn't simply a bridge, but actually a homeland—a refuge, where people could build a life." Which links to other recently reported research. Dougweller (talk) 15:55, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: There is an independent line of argument that suggests an extinct substratum on Kamchatka that typologically resembled languages of the Pacific Northwest, as Kamchatkan has developped in that very direction. This makes me (as a sceptic) wonder if these guys have not really hit on something. I do think this scenario is more plausible, and makes more geographical and historical sense: a migration from Kamchatka/Beringia to Central Asia/Western Siberia and Alaska/British Columbia respectively is less of a stretch than a migration from Western Siberia to the Pacific Northwest (or the opposite) directly. I don't even see the necessity for positing an age of 10+ kya for these migrations; they could have happened in the Holocene. Of course, the linguistic evidence comes first; as long as the connection is not demonstrated to the satisfaction of all specialists (and there is the very real possibility that it may never be, even if the hypothesis is correct), this is all idle speculation, much like speculation about the origin of the (say) Greeks was in 1800. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:22, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link with Yeneseian - both may stem from a Beringian population 

message: According to Merritt Ruhlen, a follower of Joseph Greenberg (see https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fjames.fabpedigree.com%2Flang12.gif&f=1), Dene-Yeniseian belongs to the "Cauco-Sinitic" "phylum" (one of 12) of Human Language. There is an article at http://www.kimmacquarrie.com/dna-confirms-that-first-north-south-americans-came-from-siberia/ in which it is claimed that recent DNA evidence is suggestive of Greenberg's classification of American languages into one main Eurasiatic-like (Amerind), and two later ( Sino-Caucasian Na-Dene, and Eurasiatic Eskimo-Aleut), smaller migrations from Asia. -lifeform (talk) 04:51, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deeper relationships 

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thread_title:  External links modified