Talk:Plaid Cymru/Archive 1

message: The article states that independence for Wales is a major aim for PC, however recently the party stated that "independence is not an aim, the contiunation of the Welsh language is our goal" or words to that effect. Rhydd Meddwl
I've not seen that. As far as I can tell PC's goal is still independence. An older version of the article had their commitment to the Welsh language in the introduction, but it was objected to. Clearly, if what you say is correct we will have to revise. Regards. Normalmouth 21:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Independence

message: Anyone remember when the formal name change to "Plaid Cymru - The Party of Wales" happened? Plaid's website refers to the party by the old name up to the 1995 local elections, and by the new name from the 1999 Assembly election. -- Arwel 23:20 Apr 23, 2003 (UTC)
The following website refers to "the late 1990's" -
http://plaid-cymru.biography.ms/
The following (similar) site
http://experts.about.com/e/p/pl/Plaid_Cymru.htm
states :
"The name was used from the late 1920s until it was formally changed to Plaid Cymru - The Party of Wales in the late 1990s, partly due to new electoral requirements that a party have an English name. In Wales, the party is often known as simply Plaid." 
See also
http://www.socialismtoday.org/46/wales.html
Hogyn Lleol 16:57, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "The Party of Wales" addition

message: How do you pronounce "Plaid Cymru"?
In English phonetics it would be "Plide Kumree"
:User:81.178.123.10 tried to add the following but it ended up in the wrong place:
 
:Plaid is similar in sound to the English word Plied
:Cymru has two syllables, the first which sounds more like the English Cum (to reach orgasm) than the English Come (to arrive)
:The second is the same "RI" as in the second syllable of the name Harry (Ha - RI)
:CUM-RI
::Okay, I'm just surprised: there are people who pronounce "come" == "to reach orgasm" differently from "come" == "arrive"? 66.92.237.111 01:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm also rather astonished at that, yes. —Nightstallion (?) 07:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Me too - As far as I'm concerned, the "Cym" in Cymru sounds like both of them.  Unfortunately, the BBC announcers have got it into their heads that it should be pronounced "Cwm".  I wince every time I hear it. Deb 17:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I can't really do IPA well, but the word 'Plaid' is exactly the same as the English word 'plied', and the word 'Cymru' is exactly as it is on the Wales page, i.e. /ˈkəmri/ (I've replaced 'ɹ' by 'r' as per the talk page. Gareth 22:52, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that the way you describe it, the first word would be /plaɪd/. --DDG 23:17, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Amusing, but perhaps you should stop that. Deb 17:13, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: Should we list any one individual as Plaid's "leader", given that at present this is an unclear matter and they seem to have three different ones? Timrollpickering 08:37, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The party's constitution says in article 14.1i President: The President shall be the Registered Leader of the party., so that's Dafydd Iwan, then. -- Arwel  17:35, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Leader(s)

message: The full name of the party is, since September 1998, "Plaid Cymru - the Party of Wales". "The Party of Wales" is not an additional English alternative but part of the name and therefore should be bolded. David | Talk 10:00, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Party of Wales 

message: I note someone in the editing deleted the section about how Plaid seemed to have a de facto triumvirate leadership after 2003 - something that even Simon Thomas was attacking so it was hardly an invention of political opponents. I think this needs to be put back in because it has been a point of confusion. Additionally the latest changes have complicated it further - "the party's assembly leader Ieuan Wyn Jones has been voted overall leader by party members although Dafydd Iwan will remain president" Source: BBC News so the Party President now isn't "the leader". What exactly makes Ieuan Wyn Jones the leader? (Also is he thus Plaid's "prospective First Minister"?) Timrollpickering 02:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Leader changes again

message: Can the old logo feature somewhere on the page?--MacRusgail 06:33, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Triban 

message: As per this article and the National Assembly article, the Plaid colour has been changed from green to yellow.
doktorb | words 15:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Election Box Metadata 

message: It should be added to the page that Plaid were - like other Celtic Nationalists, especially Sinn Fein - worries to the UK govt in 1940 regarding the anti-war stance they took, and how there might be scope for German spy insertions via the networks. Ref, e.g. http://www.south-wales.police.uk/fe/master.asp?n1=8&n2=253&n3=504&n4=846
:: I agree. Normalmouth 20:14, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  note sure why this section was removed, so I've put it back.  Please note this discussion and proceed with amendments on the basis of dialogue and agreement. tks Normalmouth 17:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wartime worries 

message: I have added back in the reference to Seimon Glyn and amended the old text to reflect the fact the Plaid Cymru deny the charges made against them over this issue.  The episode and the issues it raised were an important episode in the post-Assembly era history of the party and should be referred to.  What is more, I do not think the alternative formulation, which refers to demonising and lack of hard evidence is sufficiently npov. Happy to discuss amendments here. Normalmouth 17:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seimon Glyn 

message: Reverted edits by 213.122.20.33 because of removal of sourced information. It would be best to rewrite the section offering more context then to remove information that is sourced. Drachenfyre 05:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  213.122.20.33 

message: I think we should add Adam's impeach blair record and the parties opposition to the war on Iraq. Scifry2007 16:03, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Adding unbiased and sourced information is welcomed. The page in general needs more of a fleshing out though, I have not been able to do this do to other distractions at the moment.Drachenfyre 09:44, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iraq war and impeachment 

message: I will protect this page if vandalism continues make no bones about it Scifry2007 16:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Election 2007 & vandalism 

message: I hope someone impartial can intervene on this deadlock. Normalmouth continues to insist on:
(i) include references to allegations of racism against Plaid Cymru in sections of the arcticle including comments from Seimon Glyn despite previous calls for them to be removed.
(ii) referring to the party as nationalist, rather than supporting Welsh Independence despite the SNP article using this accurate terminology
(iii) removing references to the parties commitment to decentralist socialism and bilingualism 
(iv) retaining a bizarre spelling mistake in the opening sentence. "a the"
Given the history of Normalmouth's interventions it is clear he is intent on infering that the Plaid Cymru is racist, when all independent commentators and organisations accept that it is a tolerant, inclusive party that has more ethnic minority councillors than all other political parties in Wales combined. Lenincymru2007 14:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Many of these points are dealt with in the above discussions, and I leave it to others to judge the efforts I have made to address those points and reach an overall compromise.Normalmouth 15:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Normalmouth's continual bias 

message: I've noticed that the history section now contains text on the party's history that has been copied verbatim from the Plaid Cymru website. I've sought the opinion of an Administrator (Deb) who takes the view that this is probably not acceptable. I will therefore remove it.Normalmouth 19:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well spotted! I haven't used it verbatim, but tried to remove any bias. Lenincymru2007 22:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of text from Plaid Cymru website 

message: Thanks for the changes Normalmouth, I have agreed to the following:
(i) date of formation, but have moved 2005 share of the vote to history section, where 2005 election is discussed. Hope that is OK.
(ii) Ok with more objective descrip of hunger strike
(iii) Happy with rewording of Seimon Glyn part, I think. Thanks for that.
(iv) accepted most of 2004 local election changes
Had to disagree with:
(i) taking out 1981 Community socialism part, as far as I know it remains in the party's constition and in any case, it's inclusion is an important part of the party's history. Feel free to find the date when the aim was removed from the party's constitution and include that I cannot find one.
(ii) reinserted some of the stuff in the history, removing part of the flowerly language, which I agree was too one-sided.
:: Hope this is acceptable. Lenincymru2007 22:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latest changes 

message: It's not healthy to have edit wars and controversy between two people on any article.  I'm going to look around for other users who've contributed to the article in the past and ask them to re-join the debate.  I suggest you both do the same. Deb 16:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Current position

message: University projects require their students to research into their information and into what they need to learn. Wikipedia also uses this same method for it's articles. My resolution to this problem is to reference everything in this article to a long-standing reliable set of book sources. Work on it this way guys, and my advice also, in future all articles should relate to helpful and reliable sources, mainly books but other internet sources of good credit. If what I have suggested has already been done, which I have a feeling it might have, please reply to this in my talk page. Amlder20 16:57, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good suggestion. The points disputed are cited as you suggest (see above).Normalmouth 17:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Here's a better deal 

message: I would like to thank Normalmouth for accepting that there is nothing distinctive about certain PC figures, who just like Aneurin Bevan and Neville Chamberlain, failed to realise the dangers and evil of fascism in the early thirties. However, Normalmouth insists on treating PC separately and including references that infer racist attitudes amongst the party leadership. He has also insisted upon using pejorative terms like nationalism, but attempting to erase any reference to socialism from the party's history.
I am still attempting to eliminate Normalmouth's imbalance from the article, but any help would be appreciated. I would like to take up Deb's offer to put the allegations against Saunders Lewis in a separate article. Lenincymru2007 20:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Normalmouth's repeated bias 

message: I'm glad LeninCymnru2007 is participating in the editing of this article. Unfortunately, his edit of this evening, which I reverted once already, had the effect of removing a quotation which supports the existing wording in order to facilitate his own new wording. In the first instance, this is poor form; the quote was there in the footnote specifically because it supports the wording and to strip it out serves no benign purpose. Secondly, the new wording is not accurate.
There is ample evidence to show that the views of Saunders Lewis and other leaders (note that; the "other leaders" part is why this should not be moved solely to the SL article) in relation to fascism caused disquiet among early PC supporters, some of whom were rank-and-file members, some of whom may have simply been potential or actual supporters.
=== Principal secondary sources ===
1. "Lewis's elitist views, together with his condescending attitude towards aspects of the Non-conformist, radical and pacifist traditions of Wales, attracted criticism, and the readiness of some prominent party members to see virtue in Mussolini and Franco was deeply offensive to left-wing nationalists." 
- Davies, J, A History of Wales, (1990, rev. 2007), Penguin
2.  "Plaid Genedlaethol Cymru, founded in 1925, significantly during the Eisteddfod at Pwllheli, was in the main a pressure group of intellectuals and litterateurs campaigning on behalf of the Welsh language. Its early politics were complicated and compromised by the apparent neo-fascism of its charismatic first President, the poet and dramatist Saunders Lewis, and the sympathy for fascist-style corporatism shown by him and other Roman Catholic leaders of the party."
: - Morgan, K O, Welsh Devolution: the Past and the Future in Scotland and Wales: Nations Again? (Ed. Taylor, B and Thomson, K), (1999), University of Wales Press. 
3. "During the 1930s Plaid became even more of a right wing force.  It’s journal refused to resist Hitler or Mussolini, ignored or tolerated anti-Semitism and, in effect, came out in support of Franco. In 1941 Saunders Lewis’ pamphlet "The Church and the World" explicitly rejected the war against Nazi Germany while in 1944 Ambrose Bebb condemned the plot to assassinate Hitler."
: - See also Williams, G A When Was Wales?, (1985), Penguin
=== Primary sources ===
In addition, D Hwyel Davies' The Welsh Nationalist Party 1225-1945 contains numerous direct quotes from the party’s literature over the period which support the claims made by the above authors. 
He also provides a detailed account of the leadership’s views on international affairs, which were inevitably dominated by the rise Europe’s fascist dictators. 
=== Basis for inclusion in article ===
Other users have expressed the view that the wording is a fair summary of the secondary sources mentioned above. However, even then the accusation made by Lenincymru2007 is that it does not warrant a mention, particularly as other party leaders in some way acted similarly (though I would argue that PC had a distinctive position which meant that they condoned fascism more forcefully and for longer than these other examples). 
I accept that the question of inclusion is always going to be more subjective. But I believe the brief reference to it helps to provide context on the party’s very early development, or lack of it. In so doing, I have followed the conventions laid out by many, but not all, of the background texts that also deem it to be worthy of attention.
Then there is the question of doing the issue full justice. I fully accept that there were nuances to the PC leadership’s position, which qualify their positions. They were, it is true, pacifists (this is mentioned in the next sentence but one). They also wanted to try and counter what they saw as the propaganda of the English Press. And, ideologically, they advanced a case for regarding all international affairs as the manoeuvrings of Imperialist powers - which led them to defend England’s enemies. Finally, they were by no means a united grouping; Ambrose Bebb  warned against Hitler but remained sympathetic to Mussolini, J E Daniel saw both Hitler and Franco as part of great European tradition against the true enemy of Communism.
These are all fascinating details, and give an insight into Welsh Nationalist thinking at the time, but to include them all really would give undue prominence to the subject. So the wording was confined to once sentence - an implicit demand in LC’s editing.  My proposed solution was to do a new footnote which sought to capture some of this. I also think it can be picked up more fully in other articles.
The question is not really one of whether PC’s early leadership were fascists (much less LC’s suggestion that it implies racism in today’s party), but whether their views as perceived affected their early development. The evidence fairly unequivocally says yes, and I believe the wording reflects that in a way that is appropriate to its overall importance.  Since I cannot spend hours doing responses like these, it’s over to others to pitch in with views of who is right. 
=== Other points ===
LC says I “insist upon using pejorative terms like nationalism, but attempting to erase any reference to socialism from the party's history”.
I’ve argued at length above why I believe the word Nationalism is not pejorative and why mention of it should be made. However, I’ve not put it in (in other words I have not used it), but have asked for views. LC’s charge can therefore safely be dismissed.
The references to socialism in the article are ones that I put in. There is therefore no basis in this suggestion either.
Finally, can I politely request LC confines his headings on this page to factual summaries of the point(s) under discussion. It helps other users, and the tone of LC’s headings are also a potential violation of WP:AGF.Normalmouth 22:19, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Morgan's Rebirth of a Nation offers more on this topic. I've amended the wording, and made it clear that PC as a party did not espouse fascism. Hopefull this does the trick. Normalmouth 07:35, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits to history section: 1930s 

message: LC says I “insist upon using pejorative terms like nationalism, but attempting to erase any reference to socialism from the party's history”.
I’ve argued at length above why I believe the word Nationalism is not pejorative and why mention of it should be made. However, I’ve not put it in (in other words I have not used it), but have asked for views. LC’s charge can therefore safely be dismissed.
The references to socialism in the article are ones that I put in. There is therefore no basis in this suggestion either.
Finally, can I politely request LC confines his headings on this page to factual summaries of the point(s) under discussion. It helps other users, and the tone of LC’s headings are also a potential violation of WP:AGF.Normalmouth 22:19, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Morgan's Rebirth of a Nation offers more on this topic. I've amended the wording, and made it clear that PC as a party did not espouse fascism. Hopefull this does the trick. Normalmouth 07:35, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other points 

message: I notice that the party colours are yellow in he article-are the party colours not actually green, with only the party emblem (the Welsh poppy) being yellow?
During the TV coverage of the Welsh assmebly elections 2007 I noticed Plaid candidates were wearing a green rosette, which would suggest green is the party's official colour.
It's a nice, relaxing logo!--86.29.247.234 02:01, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Party colours

message: I note the article still says that PC is the "main opposition party" in the Welsh Assembly.  Is this statement still true in light of the recent Labour-Plaid agreement?  Or has the coalition not yet formally be assembled due to Morgan's illness?
Also, does the Welsh Assembly have a formal Opposition with a leader as the UK parliament does? --Jfruh (talk) 23:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The new, coalition government hasn't been sworn in yet as I understand it. until then, PC is still the official opposition; after the ceremony then the Conservatives become the official opposition. --Stlemur 00:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This change is meant to happen in the next few hours --Stlemur 11:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone just reverted a change that said that Plaid were now in government.  Has the coaltion formed or not?  I know the cabinet seats haven't been settled on, but isn't Jones now deputy FM?  Doesn't that make it hard to call them opposition?  Or is everything still up in the air due to Morgan's illness? --Jfruh (talk) 20:25, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They are in government, Jones is the Deputy FM and represented Wales at the Passchendaele 90th anniversary commemoration this last week. Nick Bourne is the leader of the Opposition. -- Arwel (talk) 22:15, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All right, then I'll change it back.  We'll see if it sticks... --Jfruh (talk) 22:50, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Main opposition" 

message: Stlemur: I welcome your most recent edits, taking out "fat." Yes, much of the basic structure is from my edits on Ieuan Wyn Jones page. You got to my edits from last night (whilst I was at work! uh-oh!). It is good to have other eyes go over the pages, its what Wikipedia is all about. Additionally, no bias is intended. You had made a comment that it was lacking any detractions, somewhat true. I am doing on-going research for more information on the controversial issues. You simply got to it before I have fully added them. I felt that there is so much bias against Plaid, and its members, from general media and some Wikipedia contributers for some caution. I will be adding more through out the week on this and then the Ieuan Wyn Jones page, so have patience. If you edit the fat like you did already, then we are good. I do tend to favor direct quotes but paraphrasing works for streamling too. Drachenfyre 16:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Most recent Edits post 07-18-07: 

message: Does anyone know where I can get a cipy of the origional Plaid Cymru logo? The current one has the new one as part of it. Drachenfyre 07:17, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origional Symbol