Talk:Zinedine Zidane/Archive 1

message: PLEASE NOTE: All discussion about the World Cup Final Headbutt is under the "Headbutt" topic. Click the link in the contents and add to it if you wish don't create a new topic for it so it can all be kept together. SenorKristobbal 23:10, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: First up in this dicussion page shall be his name. His first, middle, and last name are Arabic. The pronounciation of his names in Arabic (using English pronounciation) is Zaynadeen Yazeed Zaydan. In the Algerian accent, which corrupts the Arabic pronounciation, it becomes "Zeendeen Yazeed Zeedan". So the transliteration of the Arabic name & the transliteration of the name in Algerian accent should be seperated.
, 
His first name is a wonderful example of a complex Arabic name with more then one part.
Zaynadeen.
Zayn = beauty http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=zayn
adeen = the path/way http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deen_(Arabic_term)
Zaynadeen means (the) Beautiful (one) of the Path. It is a descriptive name not meaning "beautiful path" rather the beautiful one of the path.
Yazeed = one who increases
Zaydan = overabundant twice (not twice overabundant)
The name Zaydan is the same as the name Zayd except the "an" ending means "two". Zayd = overabundant. Zaydan is emphasizing the overabundance of something that they possess, such as for example talent. One may say they possess an overabundance of talent. But with the word Zaydan, it is like saying overabundant twice of, for example, talent.
So his full name, like many Arabic names, could be put into one sentence.
Zinedine Yazid Zidane
The beautiful one of the path. One who increases. One who is overabundant, twice.
For the Arabic ear his name automatically becomes his description.
The beautiful one of football (his path). One who increases (advancing). One who is overabundant twice (in ability, talent, & genius). --by BB--
:Thank you for that, very interesting. One question: I thought that Yazid was not an official name, but a nickname derived from the "Zayd" in his last name. Is this correct? If it is, the first line of the article should probably be corrected. 62.194.23.55 16:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He is sometimes referred to as Yazid Zinedine Zidane, including in an article on fifa.com, and more often as Zinedine Yazid Zidane.  Yaz is a nickname derived from Yazid.  See the Trivia section of the article. Canadiana 17:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Zinedine Yazid Zidane, His Name

message: "FIFA investigation
On July 11, 2006, FIFA declared its intent to officially investigate the incident.[29] It has been speculated in the German press, that the non-discrimination provision which FIFA adopted for its disciplinary code on 28 March 2006[30][31]. They married in 1993 and have four sons named Enzo, Luca, Théo and Elyaz. Zidane describes himself as a "non-practicing Muslim".[32] Allegations that Zidane's father was a harki, or Algerian supporter of French rule, have been denied by Zidane himself.[33]"
the part about him becoming married in 1993 has no relevance to this section of the page, can someone please clean it up? i would do it myslef but even my contribution would need cleaning up. thankyou.
"An Amendment regarding discrimination to Art. 55, Par. 4 of the FIFA Disciplinary Code [3] stipulates that if any player, association or club official or spectator publicly disparages, discriminates against or denigrates someone in a defamatory manner on account of race, colour, language, religion or ethnic origin, or perpetrates any other discriminatory and/or contemptuous act and can be attributed to a certain team, the team in question faces deduction of points in the group stage resp. disqualification in the knockout stage.
The new provisions had been adopted on 28 March 2006 and may lead to the FIFA Executive Committee imposing harsh sanctions and even disallowing Italy's team the World Cup victory if Materazzi is convicted of having insulted Zidane with racial slurs.[26]" 
Seeing as the investigation was only announced today, I don't think the conclusion suggested in the above paragraphs needs to be displayed (yet). Here's the link to the ESPNsoccernet article that deals with the matter . Nowhere (believe it or not) does it mention that Materazzi's use of language is being investigated. It would be really hard to prove the content of any insults exchanged between the two players. We should wait until the conclusion of the investigation before posting consequences; the paragraphs should be removed and replaced with a comment like "The investigation is currently in progress". --Nicklob 17:30, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  FIFA Investigation 

message: PLEASE NOTE: All discussion about the World Cup Final Headbutt is under the "Headbutt" topic. Click the link in the contents and add to it if you wish don't create a new topic for it so it can all be kept together. SenorKristobbal 23:10, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean it Up 

message: Whoever made that moving .gif, why not redo it but deinterlace it first? It looks pretty bad.
----
Thanks for the redirect, jheimans. I should have realized that a star of such magnitude would already have an article. --Ed Poor
----
Shouldn't this be under "Zinédine Zidane" rather than "Zinedane Zidane".  This conforms with Wiki's policy of using proper names.  Any objections?  Mandel 10:09, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)
the correct spelling in France is "Zinedine", pronounced "Zindin".  The incorrect spelling comes from journalists mispronoucing this name.  see search "Prénom Zinedine"and site on the Arab Etymology of first names for references. Zidane himself has spoken up about the incorrect pronounciation and spelling of his name, according to the Europe1 Radio news in Paris.Musikfabrik 17:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Please do not add an accent to Zinedine.  This accent does not exist in French.  See below for sources.''' 

message: It is inaccurate (or POV) to claim that Zidane is currently regarded as the best player in the world, as he does not hold the FIFA World Player of the Year award, nor is he being considered for the award in 2005.  Obviously a three-time winner deserves his credit, thus I will change these statements to past tense if there are no objections. Karma Heretic 04:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Greatest Player

message: There are no accents in this name in French (do a google search on "prenom Zinedine" and you'll see....).  The accent comes from journalists who mispronounce this name, which should be pronounced "Zindin".  The accent should be changed in the article. Musikfabrik 16:57, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To be fair, since it's his name he's allowed to pronounce it however he feels. The same goes for anyone with any name. That said, since he's French and (presumably) speaks French most of the time, we should probably go with the French pronunciation. By the by, the "al" in "al-deen" doesn't get given the full value anyway - it becomes "ad" as laam is a sun letter. BigHaz 07:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Please see this discussion on a French Wikipedia user page (in French, sorry) concerning the  spelling "Zinédine": []  All sources consulted said that the correct spelling was indeed "Zinedine" without the accent.  If anyone would like the sources, please consult the user Clio64, who seems to have good connections in the French  Sports world.  Musikfabrik 08:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correct Spelling of Zinedine 

message: As he is of Moroccan descent, Zidane's name is of Arabic origin (زين الدين زيدان). As such, its CORRECT pronunciation is the Arabic one which, when reflected onto the Anglo-Saxon language, is pronounced: "Zin-al'deen Zidaane" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.48.14.126 (talk • contribs) 22:36, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To be fair, since it's his name he's allowed to pronounce it however he feels. The same goes for anyone with any name. That said, since he's French and (presumably) speaks French most of the time, we should probably go with the French pronunciation. By the by, the "al" in "al-deen" doesn't get given the full value anyway - it becomes "ad" as laam is a sun letter. BigHaz 07:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Please see this discussion on a French Wikipedia user page (in French, sorry) concerning the  spelling "Zinédine": []  All sources consulted said that the correct spelling was indeed "Zinedine" without the accent.  If anyone would like the sources, please consult the user Clio64, who seems to have good connections in the French  Sports world.  Musikfabrik 08:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: If  may differ 

message: Can someone please put more pictures of Zidane? There's only one picture over his profile.
The article will look better with more pictures.
Zarif 17:15, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More Pictures

message: I redirected "Zidane" here and made a disamb page cos the other Zidane was nobody. Skinnyweed 00:48, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added a  tag. --Muchness 11:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect and disamb 

message: In the lead section, instead of using peacock terms like 'top footballer', 'elite', 'genius', 'magician' - why not simply state that he's been tha FIFA World Player of the Year three times? The guidelines are  pretty clear on this. Eixo 14:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms|Peacock terms]]

message: This article needs serious clean up, not only is thier a lack of references, but its make ourageous claims, such as bieng the best plyer of this genration and the of all time. The third and fourth paragraphs, are just as bad, from the claims that he was the best of the real madrid team, by reputation alone, to claims that its due to his abscence that France, exited the world cup. Another tag of weasel words will also be put up. Very misleading article. (212.219.97.7 11:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean-Up tag placed 

message: Agree with above person. Statements like "Zidane is often considered to be the best footballer of his generation [citation needed] , and one of the greatest footballers of all time", "one of the game's finest artists", and the France 2002 losing because of him are suspect. Skinnyweed 20:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: OR tag

message: Let's agree to remove the disambig info, just because somebody has the same last name as somebody doesn't mean they deserve a redirect on that person's page, especially not for a minor fictor character. Should an article on Alan Jones have a disambig for all people sharing the name Jones? Mackan 03:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look at the disambiguation page, you'll see that there are two footballers named Zidane (Zinedine & Djamel), one fictional character named Zidane (Tribal), and one other footballer with a similar name (Zidan). That seems like enough to warrant inclusion of the disambiguation message. "Zidane" itself goes to Zinedine so it's fair to add a disambiguation page to that article. I know that having that redirect message is never nice but you have to keep control of your own personal emotions and maintain a neutral point of view. Skinnyweed 13:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your question is totally ridiculous as "Jones" does not redirect to "Alan Jones". Do not attempt to skewer opinion and spread deceit because we will know. Skinnyweed 13:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you just disqualified yourself from commenting on this subject. Mackan 15:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seeing as you're unwilling to talk, even though you started the issue, we'll just have to wait for outside commentary. Skinnyweed 15:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I don't care any longer since you added two other players. I think the article "Zidane" could just as well be a disambig though. Still, I object to your way of "debating", you are rude and assumptive.Mackan 16:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Better a "minor fictional character" than a "minor spectator sports player", I say! I never heard of this "Zinedine" character until an article on Digg about a guy provoking him  Hackwrench 06:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry, I didn't realize there was a content dispute regarding the inclusion of a disambiguation header in this article – I should have checked first before adding it. Still, I think the inclusion is appropriate in this case, for the reasons stated by M0ffx. --Muchness 12:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is fine as things currently stand, and in line with WP practices.-- Deville (Talk) 19:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

text: "The vast majority" Yeah, right, and the vast majority of statistics are made up. Hackwrench 06:16, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Compare the "What links here" pages for Zinedine Zidane and Zidane Tribal. Zinedine Zidane's article is more popular by a considerable margin. Alternately, try a Google search: "Zidane Tribal" returns less than 50,000 hits; "Zinedine Zidane" returns more than 6 million. --Muchness 08:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: However some of those hits are going to be people by the name of "Zinedine Zidane" that are not this one. Much less likely for the made up name. Your turn. Hackwrench 11:03, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambig

message: I was wondering if someone could put his place of birth at the very beginning at the aritcle, so people wanting to quickly check his place of birth don't have to look hard.
68.78.137.203 (talk • contribs) added He is ALGERIAN to the bottom of the first paragraph, which I reverted.  I have no knowledge of the player, so I am moving the comment here for further discussion.  --TeaDrinker 21:12, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationality 

message: Should we add anything in the trivia about Zidane's trademark move? Did he even invent it himself?
hmm. yes and no. didnt Maradona do a similar thing..? im not too sure maybe someone can look into it. Or he has his own style of Maradona's move. im really not sure so dont flame me for being confused :P
:The first time I saw it was in 1982, when Maradona played at the World Cup in Spain. But it is a Zidane trademark anyway, nobody else uses it as often and as effective. David Sneek 19:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a video to the external links section. David Sneek 07:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Marseille Roullete

message: If the time says 26:32 for example, they're in the 27th minute, not the 26th. That's was the case with the goal against Portugal, it was the 33rd minute, not the 32nd Soxrock 19:54, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  33rd minute goal against Portugal 

message: This has two possible problems so I removed the description of the player's birth place:
Firstly, it seems to be conjecture if no link is provided with decent evidence to demonstrate the point (specifically about the area La Castellane). Secondly, and (academically unless it is re-inserted by someone)I am prepared to take the flak on this - 'hardscrabble' is not, in my opinion, a well recognised adjective to non US English speakers. I'm British and I had to guess the meaning from the context so I would imagine non-native English speakers would have more trouble. He is a joy to watch though as I am sure all the contributors will agree. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.92.214.41 (talk • contribs) 00:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  '...notoriously hardscrabble ...' 

message: The Daily Mail and several other sources have stated that the remarks were a racial slur based on some lip reader that they apparently hired. I have seen it slightly differently in different sources, but if we can find what the original was, I think its worthy of inclusion. As this is a current event and details can change rapidly, we should be careful to attribute this specifically. Here's the link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=395046&in_page_id=1770 savidan(talk) (e@) 04:17, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is discussed elsewhere on this page, but other papers have hired lipreaders with varying results. I think it's noteworthy that newspapers hired lipreaders, but since there's no consensus on what was actually said, I don't think it's worth including the lipreading transcriptions. Also, I wouldn't consider the Mail the most credible of sources. Ytny 04:27, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nor would I, if I knew what other papers you are referring to that hired their own lipreaders (as opposed to republishing the lip-reading of another source). savidan(talk) (e@) 12:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Daily Mail

message: > On August 12, 2004, after France's performance in the Euro 2004, losing to eventual winners Greece, Zidane retired from international football.
This should say "losing to eventual winner Greece" or something like that. Unless football is really special and single teams are treated in the plural, which really makes no sense -- but hey, sports are strange.
> On July 9th, 2006, Zidane became one of only four footballers to achieved the feat of scoring in two different World Cup final matches
"to" is supposed to operate with infinitive form words (achieve), not conjugated ones (achieved).
that said, a lot of the "prose" in this article leaves an editor to be desired.
21:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  eventual winners and to achieved 

message: There seem to be various "new members" or IPs coming in here confusing this talk page with a forum. Wikipedia talk pages are not forums and they shouldn't be. Please leave your feelings about the match at the door and only talk about content relevant to improving the article. If this continues I'll ask an administrator to semi-protect this page.--Jersey Devil 00:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Two self-appointed candidates for godhood now present, more coming up your way soon...
Hah.. funny.  thanks for keeping it on the Talk page, too.
Kether83 02:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Talk Page Protection

message: Who removed all of the external links? Zeeg 06:22, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The external links section was cleaned up here with the motivation "Wikipedia is not a link dump". See WP:EL as regards external links. --Oden 06:47, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is also not the only source for media on the internet, people need to stop acting like it is. You can't be everything or you become nothing. Zeeg 17:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: Why so many informations about 2006 world cup and so few about that of 1998 when Zidane won the tournament?--Pokipsy76 15:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately many users turn this site into "WikiNews" instead of an encyclopedia. That's why so many biographical articles are very unbalanced and others plain stink. All we can do is try to improve them. ChaChaFut 01:57, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's really a kind of encyclopedic digest of the news, rather than news itself.  It's true that it's unbalanced from a long-term perspective, but right now the 2006 final game incident is what many people want to know about Zidane.  Eventually, we will know what is important in this section and we can condense it, I think, but now is not the time for that. It's good to see that this section is fairly well-documented at least.  Documenting the 1998 World Cup is not quite as easy at this time, but expansion of that section will come in time. Canadiana 18:06, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Full ACK! I think users come here *right now* to get a balanced view of what happened at the game. If the presentation of facts is informative and backed up by current news reports and multimedia, people will like it and surely won't mind finding more than they had expected. In fact, the wikinews entry sounds much more journalistic, and that's good! Regarding the long term: Don't worry, the bloat will get shaken out over the next few days/weeks. But as I see it, the headbutt is a rather big issue at the moment (look at youtube.com - they had > 2m views of the headbutt videos in just two days; same on google video - Zidane and Materazzi are pretty much all over the place), so for now, we should do everything we can to have people being thrilled by the comprehensiveness and up-to-dateness of Wikipedia.  Zakaria5000 19:29, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Frankly, because its easier to write about recent events. I don't think that we've said too much about the 2006 World Cup, I just think we need to say more about the 1998 (and 2002) Cups. savidan(talk) (e@) 12:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undue weight 

message: "Zidane is the first and only player to be sent off in two separate non-consecutive World Cup finals (1998 against Saudi Arabia, and 2006 against Italy)."
The 1998 final was between France and Brazil.  This is incorrect.Smitty Mcgee 16:17, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to clean that up and switch it to World Cups just so people don't get confused.  I'm quite certain that it's correct, but I'll also try to find a source. Vickser 18:07, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just putting it as "World Cups" would be incorrect because the World Cup includes the qualification process as well. "World Cup finals tournaments" would be more appropriate. Can someone please make the alteration unless there are any objections. I back it it with the second paragraph on this page FIFA World Cup (AurgornN 08:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I could not find any documentation for that bizarre claim (the only player to do it twice, but not consecutively ??), but I reworded it and tried to clarify whether it was talking about the final match or the finals (the tournament). Canadiana 00:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mistake

message: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a blog or an AP feed. As such, an image of Zidane receiving a red card is not notable enough to be inserted in the article, especially when there is only one other image of him (which is isolated in the infobox). One cannot reasonably expect to see an image of Zidane's headbutt when one does not see images of him at award's banquets when he is receiving FIFA Player of the Year honours or UEFA's Best Footballer of the Past 50 Years. One must put things in perspective.  If any picture is inserted in regards to the 2006 FIFA World Cup, it should be of the most notable event, which is obviously him winning the Golden Ball award, not receiving a red card.  I'm going to remove the picture and I propose not replacing it without acheiving consensus here on the talk page hoopydinkConas tá tú? 16:33, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Uhhh, the most notable event I believe is him headbutting a player, having an image of this as it is his last game of his career I believe is quite important. Yes, it may make him look bad but editors didn't comprise whilst editing Adolf Hitler did they? Sorry that may be a bad comparison.--Andeh 17:15, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a terrible comparison actually, as you're basically comparing one of the worst human beings in history to a relatively harmless footballer.  None of that is really relevant to the discussion at hand, however.  You mentioned that it may make him look bad, but that's not really of any such consequence either.  We are striving to acheive the highest quality articles that are factually accurate and adhere to Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy.  Like I said in my previous post, receiving a red card (even on such a grand stage as the World Cup final) does not overshadow the Golden Ball award nor does it overshadow his being the three time footballer of the year or the best footballer of the past fifty years  (I mention these earlier honours, because there are no pictures of the awards, either).  His being sent off is definitely notable and worth a mention in the context of the World Cup, but it is not so notable that it deserves a picture when there's only one picture in article besides the headbutt.  The insertion of the picture would lend to the notion that the red card was the most notable moment of his life, when it cleary is not.  To put things in perspective, out of the hundreds of players who have been involved in the 2006 World Cup, one received the competition's highest individual honour.  Dozens have been sent off for red cards.  Again, the incident is most definitely notable and should be in the article, but in the proper context.  I'd like to note that I'm not a particular fan of Zidane or the French national team; I'm just trying to make sure that the article is not compromised because of contributors' personal feelings and potential animosity to Zidane (such feelings are understandable and valid, as he did commit an egregious error, but an encyclopedia is not the proper forum to vent). hoopydinkConas tá tú? 17:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I thought I made it known that I completely agree that the incident is notable and encyclopedic, but my apologies if I didn't.  Again, I agree that the red card in the final (the headbutt) is very notable and should be mentioned in the article, but my issue is with overstating the incident with a picture hoopydinkConas tá tú? 17:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I cannot see how that is an "overstating". I cannot agree with you that the headbutting is equal in notability to winning the Golden Ball Award. Even people who did not watch the championship game have seen the head butting clip, but would not have heard of the Golden Ball Award. --Asbl 17:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First off, it's reasonable to say that anyone who's watched football before knows what the Golden Ball is.  Next, by "overstating", I mean that the incident is sufficiently described in the article and doesn't require a picture.  By adding the picture, the article suggests that the headbutt is Zidane's most notable on-field incident.  The following is a NPOV statement, as evidenced by his UEFA award for being the best footballer of the past fifty years and his three time FIFA Footballer of the Year awards - Zidane is one of the best, if not the best footballers who has ever played the game.  His red card is not his career's defining moment, and as such the picture should be removed so the Wikipedia article doesn't lend to that notion.  Furthermore, receiving the Golden Ball is the World Cup's highest individual honour and is by far more prestigious and notable than a red card. hoopydinkConas tá tú? 18:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I have to disagree with hoopydink. Zidane has had one true accomplishment in his career-winning a World Cup because of his participation and winning the Golden Ball this year. It seems to me that those accomplishments were nullified because of his disgraceful conduct on the field. If you think about it, what could really describe his accomplishments with him in a picture? A Golden Ball, a picture of the French winning the World Cup etc. Somebody also mentioned above, that, that incident is important because it is the ending of his career. It is true that, for everyone that has seen the headbutting, live or not, will remember Zidane as, "ooooh, that guy? The guy who butted some Italian guy in the chest in the 2006 World Cup?" Instead, if he had not headbutted, played hard and maybe win the World Cup, people would remember, "ooooooooh Zidane? The guy who ended his career beautifully with a French win of the World Cup? Oyo321 18:14, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to say that one red card does not nullify his being the best footballer of the past fifty years.  Sure, the incident was a stain on his career, but is not notable enough to warrant a picture.  Please remember that we are trying to write the most factually accurate article.  The picture is the only picture of him outside of the infobox and it is definitely not the most notable moment of his life, which the article now suggests.  That is the only issue. hoopydinkConas tá tú? 18:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then why don't you insert a picture glorifying Zidane's career? Also, it isn't the red card that really would nullify his amazing accomplishments. I don't think, and probably anybody would, a red card would be a "stain" on someone's almost clean record. If it was a slide tackle from the behind, thne people would shrug and say, "oh, shouldn't have done that." Its the headbutt that really stays on people's minds. Oyo321 19:02, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Keep. While I agree that letting this overshadow Zidane's entire career is not NPOV, I don't think that having a picture does that.  A picture doesn't say "this is the most important thing ever," a picture says "this is an informative and important addition to the text."  I also, more strongly, don't believe that us not having other pictures in the article is a good reason to remove one that presents a valuable piece of information.  The video enhances the effect of the words and article as a whole.  It illuminates the action in a way that would otherwise not be possible.  I think it's a more important image than any (beyond a primary identifying picture) I could think of.  It demonstrates far more than an image of him lifting the '98 World Cup would, even though I don't think that's any reason we shouldn't have an image of him with the '98 cup, if one were available.  If a picture is informative and adds to the article it should stay.  More pictures can be added later, and there's no need to let the best be the enemy of the good. Vickser 19:14, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I fully agree that we should be careful about overly editing the legacy section until things have calmed down a bit.  However, I don't think that really supports the theory that we should not put up the video.  If, as you say, the goal is to allow people to see the event for themselves, wouldn't having the image straight on the page be more effective than offering a link which many people will not bother to click on?  I think the video provides a far more NPOV version than any description we could come up with. Vickser 19:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I think the vandals were putting it in the info box?--Andeh 19:27, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with K-Flow, to make that the main picture would be unfair. Can we compromise and allow for a link to a video of the event instead of a picture? that way its not a picture blairing right in the faces of the audiance, but the page does create coverage that allows for people to actually see the event for themselves and make up their own minds. --Brandon Warzybok 19:29, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Were people proposing putting it as the main picture?  I would disagree with that.  I do, however, think it should go where it was earlier, right next to the description of the incident.  Also, I think that while we are debating whether or not the image should have a permanent place, I think it ought to go back to where it was.  While we're clearly still working towards consensus, it seems like more votes at the moment are for having it.  Would anyone strongly object to me placing it back in temporarily by the section on the 2006 Final? Vickser 19:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Per Oyo's and Vicksers comments, I think it's probably a good idea to insert some more pictures into the article (the hoisting of the 1998 Cup trophy, a goal being scored, him receiving an award, etc.) and letting the picture regarding the penalty stay (or an external link to the video of the incident), as it will probably be the most talked about penalty of Zidane's career.  My only issue was that having the red card incident be the only picture in the article skews the NPOV of the article and leads the reader to infer that the penalty is the most notable moment in Zidane's life/career, when it's obviously not.  I'll find some pictures in the upcoming days and I invite anyone and everyone to add some pictures that show the more notable aspects of Zidane's career. hoopydinkConas tá tú? 19:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: This will be one of the most famous images in football and definitely the most famous part of Zidane. Skinnyweed 14:26, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, it was certainly the most notable moment of the match, before penalty kicks, completelty eclipsing Zidane's earlier goal, Henry's relentless 100 minute assault on the pitch after getting almost knocked out, Malouda's beautiful footwork, and of course Materazzi's first goal. It left the second place team without one of the world's best penalty kickers, 8 minutes from the necessity. I definitely don't think it should be the only picture in the article, as the man has done amazing things on the pitch for almost 2 decades now, but it definitely is noteworthy enough to be included. I realize I am late to the current debate.--Josh Rocchio 18:49, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

text: What is so bad about that? Image too big?--Andeh 19:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I prefer the current version of the text, which I think provides more information.  Even if people want to cut some of that out, though, I definitely think we should take out the "in disgrace" bit in "His career ended in disgrace when he . . ."  It strkes me as unnecessary editorializing. Vickser 19:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inserting pictures into the article 

message: On July 9, 2006, Zidane became one of only four footballers to achieve the feat of scoring in two different World Cup final matches (he scored twice in the 1998 FIFA World Cup final), sharing the honour with Pelé, Paul Breitner, and Vavá. He scored in the seventh minute from the penalty spot. He nearly headed in the ball during the first period of extra time but it was saved by Gianluigi Buffon. His career ended in disgrace when he was sent off for violent conduct after headbutting Italy's goalscorer, Marco Materazzi, in the chest in the 110th minute.  The game ended in a 1-1 draw and Italy won the championship after a penalty kick shootout. His agent, Alain Migliaccio has claimed that a "very serious" comment by Matterazzi provoked the attack. He was the fourth person to have been sent off in a World Cup final and the first to be sent off during extra time.
----
:What is so bad about that? Image too big?--Andeh 19:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I prefer the current version of the text, which I think provides more information.  Even if people want to cut some of that out, though, I definitely think we should take out the "in disgrace" bit in "His career ended in disgrace when he . . ."  It strkes me as unnecessary editorializing. Vickser 19:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Final game 

message: What languages does he speak- bbc news used a lipreader to see what the Italian defender said to him that meade him headbut the guy- but unless Zidane speaks Italian how could that be- maybe the defender speaks French?
Again, why I want all speculation not confirmed by Zidane or Materazzi not included in this article. --Brandon Warzybok 21:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Zidane played in Italy for 5 years of his career, he would understand what materazzi was saying. Philc TECI 22:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He speaks Italian fluently as he was hundred of times the subject of press conferences in Italy during his time w/ Juventus. -- Szvest 12:17, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  World Cup Provocation 

message: It is stated on the page under the 2006 World Cup Finals header that he heard his family was involved in 9/11. This is obviously vandalism and ought to be deleted.
Yes, ive removed that section in my last edit. It was blatant vandalism. I also removed the two claims of what Materazzi said. in a few weeks when people and the sports writers begin to calm down and stop speculating we will better be able to piece together what happened, but seeing as we dont even know what language the players were argueing in to include what one media group is claiming is just not warranted at this point. --Brandon Warzybok 22:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terrorist Accusations 

message: since many media outlets are "translating" different comments that are in some cases totaly different from one anouther, i think we really need to remove all speculative comments untill one is confirmed or substanciated in a better way. --Brandon Warzybok 00:42, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:   Continued Speculation 

message: Under the picture of Zidane's headbutt that were recently added, includes a link to a video clip of the incident on youtube. The creators comments for the video clip on youtube are: "See the stupidity of Zidane as he headbutt's an Italian player for Unknown reasons.". There are dozens of versions of this same clip on youtube, most of which have neutral comments. Is this vandalism and should the link be changed to a version of the clip with netural comments in regards to the incident? -User:pallfy 21:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd support changing the clip, but I doubt it's vandalism.  (Full disclosure, I reposted the picture after hoopydink responded to my comment asked if anyone strongly objected if I put it up while we were reaching consensus because it seemed like more people wanted it up than not.  I didn't check to see if the link went somewhere biased.)  Someone probably just picked it without thinking or noticing the comment.  You could try and find out who picked it first and ask them to be careful when linking things, but my guess is it's overkill.  If it's a vandal, either he'll strike again and we'll catch him then, if it's not, nothing lost.  I'm not enough of a video linking pro to fix this myself (I just looked at how it used to be and copy pasted the stuff dealing with the image from an old version), but I'd encourage someone else to.  No point in linking to something biased when there are equally good unbiased sources out there.  Vickser 02:13, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible Vandalism 

message: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2006/teams/france/5164094.stm
This link is listed double under the header 'notes'; how does one fix this?
Kevin Hughes 01:51, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed it. What you do is, on the first cite, add a name to the <ref> tag, like this: <ref name="Zidane_BBC">. And then on every subsequent mentions, put this in: . Ytny 05:56, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Double source? 

message: Apparaently the headbutt are becoming a meme. What are we going to do with this. SYSS Mouse 03:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing because it hasn't become notable, yet.--Andeh 03:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  meme 

message: Can someone who understand's Arabic confirm that this photo is under the GFDL :Image:Zinedine Zidane-ar.jpg? Even better, could someone try and confirm that it was correctly licensed. E.g. if the person who uploaded it was the photographer. If not, try and find where it came from. It looks to me a bit like a professional photo and it's also just a thumbnail so it would be good if we could get more info on it. If you are able to confirm it is under the GFDL, consider uploading it to the wikicommons perhaps and delete the english variant? Nil Einne 15:26, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zidane photo 

message: User: Syimrvm just removed the information about what was currently happening with the note that it was unnecessary and that in time a more succint paragraph would suffice.  While I agree fully that the paragraph as it was needs to be pared down and fully believe that it will become smaller over time, I think we should discuss this on the talk page and try to get some consensus about what's worth having up now.  Vickser 16:00, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think one short paragraph for the alleged provocation (incl. lip-reading translations) ("dirty terrorist," "prostitute" sister, "terrorist whore" mother, "ugly death to you and your family" and wanting to take the shirt off Zidane's wife instead) and one for Materazzi's refutations would suffice. --Dead men's bells 16:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Naturally, it will get smaller and more concise. That's the goal in the long run, after the issue has been clarified by both players and the FIFA commission. As long as there is uncertainty, I think the information out there should be presented here. As stated in the FIFA investigation paragraph, this incident, esp. what was actually said, might lead to Italy being disqualified, so it is pretty important, don't you think? This sort of behaviour is the exact reason why FIFA introduced such a radical amendment to their disciplinary code in the first place. (I don't think they will be disqualified, though -  but we'll see) Zakaria5000 16:50, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Agree with the above proposal. Much more concise, but just as informative as what's there right now. Ytny 20:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I compressed it some more and tried to outbalance the claims somewhat. Can anyone add the citation for the Gazzetta dello Sport? (after "Materazzi recounted the incident as follows") Zakaria5000 20:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Gazzetta reference is unnecesary, as the quote is also in the ESPN article "Materazzi admits to insulting Zidane." Vickser 20:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Someone added a bunch of quotes from the various translations.  As per agreement here, I've removed them.  As they vary so widely, I don't think we should put up any translations until there's one agreed upon one. Vickser 20:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not think they vary "widely" - reports about the alleged "son of a terrorist whore" are all over the place. In this case, I do not regard an interview in a single Italian newspaper as more NPOV than contradictory analyses by forensic lipreaders employed by English newspapers. However, I will wait until Zidane finally speaks out. On a sidenote: You really have to view the front angle video carefully. Materazzi says "Vaffanculo" at the end, without a doubt. Well, I am a final year student of phonetics (not my major, though), but you don't need to be able to transcribe in IPA to realize that. BR and looking forward to how this all turns out Zakaria5000 21:26, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of large paragraph

message: Hi, I am not sure if this article should be included here:
http://ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2006-07-11_1114278.html 
Since I am not a Wiki-nerd so some professional may decide it :)
:Nice find! I am not a Wiki-nerd either, but maybe his remarks could be referenced in this article: Roberto Calderoli. What do you think? Zakaria5000 19:36, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: An interesting enough article, but it has nothing to do with Zidane directly, so it's not relevant here. Canadiana 20:47, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice find! I am not a Wiki-nerd either, but maybe his remarks could be referenced in the following article: Roberto Calderoli. What do you think? Zakaria5000 20:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some new progress 

message: Are there any high quality photographs of the incident, or even a website that has quality photos of Zidane/ the final?  Thanks.
Try browsing football forums and asking this question. This is not a football forum. (AurgornN 17:54, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos (Looking for a link) 

message: The inclusion of "aftermath" reactions seems a little biased. It suggests to the reader that nobody is upset about it and everything's hunky-dory for Zidane, when several people have spoken out against it, including the Brazilian coach calling him a 'monster.' 
Moreover, there's been no mention of the FRENCH reaction - and by that I mean more than just the president. The newspapers have soundly condemned the act: http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=32550&pt=s Dead men's bells 02:38, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I totally agree. It does sound biased. Feel free to modify or add what you deem adequate. Zakaria5000 01:09, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Edited, trying to include some of the negative reactions. I'm not a pro at this, obviously, so revise as needed with formatting and what not. Dead men's bells 02:38, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It seems that now there's only mention of the french reaction: Chirac, le Figaro, l'Equipe, a "french advertising executive". Moreover, I think there's still need to include some negative reactions, since l'Equipe basically retreated, leaving le Figaro's as the only critical voice in the whole section. --Blindscape 20:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I was just quoting the newspaper. If there's a consensus supporting the desire to including a refutation to the newspaper's assertion that Ali wasn't unbiased and that he wasn't allowed to come back on the pitch (is that true even post-game? I trust that's what you meant, I just wasn't aware of it), edit it by all means. I was just quoting. --Dead men's bells 06:31, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aftermath section 

message: Sorry to be a pain in the ass, here, but the provocation speculation is just that - speculation. I don't have a problem with including supposed translations as long as which are reported isn't subjective. "Son of a terrorist whore" is what's there now and it's by far the most offensive of the purported insults, with no mention of the far more benign "I'd rather take the shirt off your wife." Either don't give possible insults at all until more information comes out or include more than the worst one.--Dead men's bells 02:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While I would agree it might be wise to include more comments, I think we need to be clear that the terrorist whore comments appear to have the most credibitility at the moment. Reason being because from what I've heard, two different papers have claimed they used independent lip-readers who came up with the same allegations/comments. One of those lipreaders is supposedly a forensic lip reader who has been used in court before. While it's true neither of these lipreaders AFAIK could understand Italian and I believe someone did use a lipread who could understand Italian who came up with different comments, I think most would agree that two independent lip-readers coming up with the same comments and especially when one appears to have experience in lipreading in such situations has the most credibility. Also for better or worse, the terrorist whore comments have been the most widely reported. (OT but Materrazi isn't helping himself by making stupid comments either. Claiming he doesn't know what a terrorist is hardly gives him credibility) Nil Einne 06:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The fact that Materazzi has addressed the reports suggesting he called Zidane "terrorist" makes the alleged comment which he is accused of making itself worthy of inclusion.  As far as him not knowing what a terrorist is is concerned, that is not speculation, but a quote.  I've changed that sentence to be a direct quote rather than a paraphrase.--DaveOinSF 07:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Provocation overhaul needed. 

message: I appreciate we are just accurately reporting the Brazilian coach's comments but could someone perhaps find some reference or other that points out that Zidane was technically not allowed back onto the field due to the red card? I have seen other people who are apparently unaware of this fact and the fact that even the Brazilian coach is either unaware or considered it okay for Zidane to further break the rules by coming back on to the field suggests we should at least make it clear that Zidane was not allowed back onto the field, whether to console his teammates, collect his medal or collect the World Cup if France had won. Nil Einne 06:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm confused, where in the article does it say that the Brazilian coach thought he should go back on the pitch? The only comment I see is the "monster" one. --Dead men's bells 06:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologize, I read the whole section a bit to fast perhaps and/or I didn't quite remember what had been written. Indeed it was not the coach that commented on Zidane should have gone back on to the pitch and as far as I can tell, the article never suggested he did. Instead it was Le'equipe which has now apologised for their remarks  Nil Einne 08:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brazilian coach's comments 

message: this is forbidden by the FIFA and it's yet unclear if the 4th referee did use the giant screen or not. witnesses have seen the 4th referee watching the screen, while the concerned person claims he didn't.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.228.0.86 (talk • contribs) 
:It has been addressed elsewhere (Horacio Elizondo, for example) and I personally don't think it's an important enough an issue for this article. I don't think anyone other than Domenech has argued this, and both FIFA and the fourth referee deny using video replay. It looks like a dead issue and I don't think it's noteworthy enough for any article that doesn't deal specifically with officiating.Ytny 09:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "I don't think anyone other than Domenech has argued this" :) watching the match on french tv; the commentators have reported this too, hmm, Domenech was not the only person watching the match i think. thanks for the link, as still yet a theory, the importance is quite low, and if he did (and i don't know about that), Luis Medina Cantalejo cannot admit he has watched the screen, not only because this is unlegal but also because it would create a legitimate polemical about Zidane's red card. i think we'll learn more about this after the FIFA's probe and Zidane's speech today. also it's unfair that Zidane was send-off while Materazzi who cheated and insulted another player was considered "innocent". 213.228.0.86 10:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Ah, thanks. I was watching in a pub, so I didn't hear what the commentators were saying, you're right that Cantalejo would not admit to using video evidence. I guess it's officially a dead story, but if you can find sources other than Domenech arguing the case, it might be worth noting. Still, I still don't know if it's worth including in this article. Ytny 10:13, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The English commentators reported it as well. Also, Henry has suggested video was used  Nil Einne 07:53, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  what about video refereeing on Zidane's headbutt?? 

message: since "this is not a message board" this is not yahoonews neither! the section about Zidane's headbutt is way too important on the article! his whole carrer is near as long as the headbutt, this is nonsense and unlegitimate. a single event doesn't need a such close up and must be reduced. 213.228.0.86 10:08, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: People are coming here for this at the moment. In a few weeks when it's all over, it'll be reduced to a smaller blurb. At the moment, however, it's current and complex. --Dead men's bells 14:08, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  relative importance 

message: It might be pertinent to include a mention of the possibility of Zidane being stripped of his award. It's all over CNN because of Blatter's statement. --Dead men's bells 14:06, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: BBC reported it too.  I added in a comment and reference to their article. Vickser 14:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stripped of Golden Ball? 

message: Zidane's carreer as one of the greatests footballers of all time spanned much farther than the 2006 World Cup. It seems to me as if there is much too much focus on the headbutt incidident in this article. It doesn't make any sense that the section on the 2006 World Cup is one-third of the entire article. In a few months people will remember Zidane for his footballing genius, not the head-butt. Too much focus on it in this article. Should there not be a more organized way to balance the article? Xioyux 15:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He headbutted an opponent during the most popular sports event in the world, which was watched by a 1.2 billion people audience. That's a pretty notable thing to do; it deserves all the attention it gets in the article. If you feel the balance in the article is lost, perhaps you can restore it by expanding other sections. But I do not believe the space given to the headbutt is excessive. 62.194.23.55 16:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I too would say that as the article is written now, this incident takes up far too much space. It also contains a lot that doesn't belong in an encyclopedia - speculations, lots of quotations from newspaper columnists, etc. If somebody want to read the latest speculations, there are lots of online newspapers to read. Battra 17:13, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Exactly. Much of this doesn't belong here. Xioyux 17:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Agree. This is obviously got out of control. Way too much attention to the incident. Way too focused on the WC2006... I still don't understand the need to include that image. Yes, all the media is having fun about it, but should wiki do so as well? Im not even a fan of zidane, but lets try and be objective, this is way out of proportion. How many more subtitles are you guys going to include in his article regarding the incident? Leave personal feelings aside. This is an enciclopedia not a tabloid! User:phantomcr
There's a lot of speculation because no one's spoken out yet. It's a current event. Of course it'll be pared down to a smaller section when everything comes out. Sheesh, it IS a big deal. 67.169.111.72 18:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too much focus on 2006 World Cup incident 

message: ***Someone stated there was too much focus on the head-butting incident. Yes, The incident was a negative to World Cup, to France, and to Zidane. But!! He has hurt Italy most. The great focus on the incident has hurt Italy most. Let’s assume that France lost the world cup by shoot out anyway. Lets assume that Trezeguet would still miss his shot. Then what?! The 2006 World Cup tournament would be stacked with the other World Cup tournaments in the vault. People would forget that France played better then Italy in the final. Zidane changed all that.
***The honest truth of the matter is, Zidane would have left the world cup in respect sure, one of the greats. But now he has left Football in a phenomenally grand spectacle. A grand spectacle befitting a gladiator. Zidanes calm demeanor, his gentlemanly-ness made this possible. If it were Materazzi head-butting Zidane, it would be totally different. Zidane will never get the negatives that Mike Tyson got for biting Holyfield's ear. This is not to say Zidane did the right thing, but sometimes the wrong thing makes one famous.
***Zidane has not weakened his reputation, rather he has solidified his legacy and only hurt Italy's joy of the win. All will remember France in the 2006 World Cup, all will remember Zidane. People for decades to come will read “Zidane” research his videos and remember his magic. Not only have people been researching the Zidane head-butt, but by circumstance have been watching Zidane’s Greatest Goals, or Zidane’s Magic, or Zidane’s Ball Control, or Zidane: The Greatest Footballer. Maybe he was the greatest maybe not, but his head-butt has made him a contender for that title. Anyway you look at it Italy has not been able to reap the true glory of the win. Zidane wins. --by BB--
: Why is this relevant? This isn't a Zidane fanboard, nor is Marco's wiki talk page a Marco fanboard. Can we please stick to the article? Dead men's bells 07:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ZIDANE WINS !!! 

message: Has there been any mention of criminal charges for Zidane's assault on Materazzi?  Or does law not apply to athletes on the field?
Re: The law always applies. There was a case a few years back where a hockey player in the USA attacked another player on the ice and was charged with assault.  However, I have not yet heard about possible charges against Zidane.  Manus Celer Dei 19:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criminal Charges? 

message: I removed this from the article:
:Asked if Materazzi had called him "the son of a terrorist whore" (referring to an analysis by deaf forensic lip reader Jessica Rees), Zidane replied: "Ben oui" (Well, yes)
The reasons are:
1) A source is not provided. The primary source would be Le Monde, but (as someone noticed at the end of section "Zidane says insults were not of racist nature") they have removed this sentence from their article (still accessible)... All the other newspapers were citing Le Monde.
2) This contradicts Zidane's denial of racist insults, which is reported by Le Parisien (http://www.leparisien.com/home/sports/mondial2006/article.htm?articleid=261030842), by several italian newspapers, and can be heard clearly in his interview with TF1.
F4810 19:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually there is a source for that quote, it's still there (footnote 29: ). But I agree it's a bit suspect. I watched both the Canal+ interview and the TF1 interview and I didn't hear that question. David Sneek 20:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

text: You're absolutely right. Neither interview has the phrase quoted in Le Monde. What CAN be clearly heard is Zidane's denial of the racist comments, and I'm going to update the article to reflect that. If anyone can find either video or independent evidence of his agreeing his mother was called a terrorist whore (which I can't imagine he WOULDN'T consider racist, but that's irrelevent - I'm quoting his "no" to racism response, not saying he said "My mother has not been called a terrorist "whore"), it can be added, but as it stands there's one newspaper and a bunch of people who copied from it, despite the fact that the interview video it's purported to be in doesn't contain it.  Dead men's bells 22:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's speculation at this point. We don't know if he said it wasn't racist because a) he didn't interpret terrorist as racist or b) because terrorist just wasn't said. Zidane may have reacted to his mother being called a whore and his sister a prostitute. Not cool things to do, obviously, but the terrorist is the key word because it's what will make a difference between a shameful offense and a punishable violation of non-discrimination policies. Hopefully Zidane will clear this up during the FIFA hearings.Dead men's bells 05:38, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "Ben, oui" answer 

message: I removed the claim that Zidane responded "no" when asked if the remarks were racist in nature. There were four references after this sentence. Some in English, some not. The English sources most certainly do not support this! Having put the others through Babelfish, I am fairly certain they don't say this. Given that most accounts of that interview omit this detail (which would be extremely notable, given the Fifa investigation) and explicitly say that he was extremely vague about Materazzi's comments, it seems improbable. I found no account of the TF1 interview which states this. Please don't readd without a better source. savidan(talk) (e@) 06:52, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The French sources don't make that claim. From what I've seen of the French interview on Canal1, he was never asked the question (the French article refers to "TF1," with which I'm not familiar). He does say that Matarazzi commented on his familly and his sister, however. Apparently the TF1 interview is different (and the one in which the claims are denied), which I am going to watch now. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 07:31, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Zidane denies that remarks were racist?

message: Substituted at 21:04, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment