Talk:Trinitarian universalism

message: OK I checked the sources and couldn't find any section where the concept was referred to as "Christian Trinitarian Universalism." Anyone have any information that shows this? I've always heard it referred to as Universalism. It seems that the name was just used to distinguish this article from Unitarian Universalism. And if that's the case, shouldn't we use something along the lines of "Universalism (Christianity)"? Chef Ketone 22:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Technically, the word 'Christian' is not necessary as Trinitarianism is unique to Christianity in that no other religion/philosophy have the idea of Three in One: Father, Son, Spirit. Perhaps we can rename the article as Trinitarian Universalism to distinguish it from Unitarian Universalism? It can be shown that TU is quite different from UU. When this article is fully fledged out, it'll be too big to fit comfortably into the Universalism article, IMHO Caroline1008 03:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I've asked for feedback from as many Trinitarian Universalists as I know and also comments from people who feel Universalism is heresy. The article is still in process while these comments come in. The major theologians/philosphers for and against this are still living so this could get pretty interesting. Already I've received an email forwarded from someone who wrote to an author of a book I cited. Caroline1008 19:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC
Can someone give me a reference for the use of name Trinitarian Universalism? Who coined this term? My fear is this name is being used solely by Wikipedia editors.--GMS508 14:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The original author used it to differentiate a type of Christian universalism that is different from Unitarian Universalism. This is also the reason why the first part of the article contrasts the 2 beliefs. Other terms used are Evangelical universalism or biblical universalism or simply, universalism. However, most Christians, when they see the word "universalism" assume either Unitarian Universalism or an "all roads lead to God" type of religion. Is there another term you feel would be more apropos to this idea? 67.70.66.251 13:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is my opinion that the title “Universalism (trinitarian)” may be a better choice. When I came across this article I assumed that the title “Trinitarian Universalism” was a common name for a particular school of thought, but I was unable to find it being used anywhere else on the Web except in articles that referenced Wikipedia. If someone else is using this name I would like to keep the present name, but I think we need a reference stating when and who coined the name--GMS508 19:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The name is specifically to differentiate it from the most popular form of Christian universalism which is Unitarian Universalism. Here are 3 web references that are not referring to wikipedia. http://www.uupetaluma.org/sermons/sermon10nov02.html  http://ftp.atla.com/preservation/preservation_news/preservation_news100303.html
http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/universal.htm
Caroline1008 04:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Name?

message: I removed this from the Ariminian objections:
JoeSwan asks, "Is true Love forced?  Why did Jesus die on the cross?  If all will be eventually saved, why even believe in Jesus?  Why go, preach, and teach all nations obedience to Jesus's commandments, as we are commissioned by Him?  These are good questions to honestly consider when seeking truth."
:Hi Joe and welcome to Wikipedia. The article is not a forum for starting a debate. It's suppose to be an articulation, to the best of my friends and my humble ability, of what Trinitarian Universalism is all about. We do know that not everyone agrees with our view. Hence the repeated admonition that this is considered heresy by the greater Christian commnity. If you'll like to debate/discuss, you're more than welcome to do so at this link: http://pub5.bravenet.com/forum/426816999/ or you can check the discussion page under your user name.
:I hope you'll reread the article. The answers to all your question are all there - but from a Trinitarian Universalist's perspective. Love must be chosen. Jesus died for us. It's better to believe now because hell is horrible and I'd prefer to go through life with Him than without Him. Preaching the Kingdom message will help people know God as revealed by Jesus, the best thing possible in the world! There are 100s of other reasons including reduction in evil (a la Walter Winks writings). Blessings, Caroline1008 00:58, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is not talking about who is a Christian and who is not. The article even clearly states that this belief is heresy. The article is describing a kind of universalism that is dependant on Trinitarianism for its raison d'etre, hence the title. There are other articles on wikipedia that talk about other kinds of universalism, including Unitarian Universalism. A good starting point would be to look at the universalism article. Or someone could start an article comparing and contrasting unitarian and trinitarian formulations of Christianity. 67.70.66.251 13:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Questions

message: I have removed the use of the word Dogma as I felt that it was contradicted in the article.  Dogma as I understand it means: A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church. I do not believe that there is one authoritative source of doctrines for Trinitarian Universalism.--GMS508 21:37, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Questions about the Use of Heresy and Dogma

message: Was this article created by one or two people who wish to distinguish their beliefs from the beliefs UU Church?
Here are some questions I have about this article:
1.)     “Trinitarian Universalism is coherent theology of God as revealed by Jesus Christ, but it is generally considered heresy by all the major branches of Christianity: i.e. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant.” There is no authoritative body that could speak for all Protestant denominations so without a reference I seriously question whether all Protestant faiths would call this type of universalism a heresy.
:The reference would be the doctrinal statement of faith for every denomination and church, a rather tedious process although I suppose I could ref 10 of the biggest. It would be exceptional to find a Protestant church whose statement of faith does not include a belief that salvation is only for the few who accept Christ in this lifetime. I can't think of any who states that eventually, all would be saved. I would be very interested if anyone knows of even one.67.70.66.251 13:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 10 is more work than necessary 2 or 3 should be enough. But it would be helpful to see a reference to a doctrinal statement so the reader could decide for themselves whether heresy is the correct word.--GMS508 19:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just added links to what Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterians, Southern Baptists and Assemblies of God (the largest Pentecostal denomination, I think) believe regarding salvation. They all agree that some people will go to heaven and some to hell but none would say that eventually, everyone will be saved. I've heard that the Eastern Orthodox believe that it is possible that all men be saved but it is heresy to say that God must save all men but I can't find the reference. There is a current debate within the Presbyterian denomination about hell and salvation with the old guard calling pluralism (which is not even as radical as universalism) "vile heresy". The web link is here  To the best of my knowledge, the liberal branch has not been able to change their doctrinal statements to say that people who are not professing Christians can be saved.Caroline1008 21:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The source would be "The Trinitarian Faith" by T.F. Torrance which is reference in the article. It is also the core belief (or dogma) of many churches. Although some might quibble about nuance, many would not dispute these as fundamentals. 67.70.66.251 13:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If the “The core beliefs of Trinitarian Universalism” section is a summary of ideas presented in "The Trinitarian Faith" by T.F. Torrance, I think it needs to be spelled-out a little clearer. To me the “core beliefs” section looked like it was from multiple references and possibly not an example of one complete coherent theology.--GMS508 19:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

text: A statement about the validity of the bible as an authority has to be placed somewhere. Otherwise, another authority (logic, the Pope, or soemthing eles) would have to be explicitly stated. The article is saying that universal salvation is biblical. That leaves either a statement that the bible is inerrant (as in the Chicago formulation) or infallible (as in Wesleyan formulation). I personally like the Wesleyan formulation. The article would still work if inerrancy was claimed but I agree that would raise other issues. 67.70.66.251 13:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not like the word “infallibility” I feel it is misleading. But I guess it is the accepted terminology, so I’ll need to get use to it.--GMS508 19:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I have serious problems with is article?

message: I reckon this article might want a little piece of Carlton Pearson and his "Gospel of Inclusion". That "This American Life" audio link over on his article is a gem, btw. — coelacan talk — 03:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: His 'inclusionism' is very like the form of universalism talked about here in that it is Christocentric, biblical and does not deny hell. He coined the word inclusionism because of what most Christians think universalism means: liberal, not biblical, all roads lead to heaven, sin all you want and still be okay. Because other theologians are publishing works on universalism that is biblical and based on Trinitarianism (which what Bishop Pearson talks about without the big T word), using a new phrase may not be necessary. It may confuse with inclusivism which is a different (and much better established) concept of who is saved and who is not. BTW, Bishop Pearson has lost a lot of his Evangelical supporters and have been declared heretic by his denomination. Universalism, by any name, has a long road to travel. But it is still early days. Caroline1008 13:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Caroline, I would like to object to the way you are using the word liberal. Liberal Theology is a inclusive theology and it includes all the orthodox (“conservative”) beliefs, it takes a “this and that” approach to theology instead of a “this not that”. I think when you are saying “liberal” you’re talking about modernism and postmodernism theology which does reject some of the orthodox beliefs. I understand what you are saying, but  being a self-define “liberal” and “progressive” Christian I object to the notion that I am not biblical and I think others might also.--GMS508 13:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry, but I do mean Liberal Theology. :) Conservative Christians like the Evangelicals are against statements like "all paths lead to God" or "people can be saved apart from Christ". I think both modern and postmodern theology can be either liberal or conservative. Brian McLaren is a pomoXian who wants to stay within the conservative camp, no matter what his critics say. The Evangelical Theological Society have only 2 doctrinal positions: 1) the bible is inerrant (as in Chicago Statement formulation) and 2) God is Trinity. I tend to put Christians who believe those 2 statements in the conservative camp and those who don't in the liberal camp. This may be my background bias coming through. Caroline1008 15:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a liberal theologian once said, “We know that all things work together for good”--GMS508 03:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, a conservative theologian would refer to Romans 8:28 and emphasize that it is God who works good and ONLY for those who love Him and who are called by Him. Caroline1008 15:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bishop Pearson 

message: The article lists this type:
*soft or non-dogmatic who believes that God wants everyone to be saved and that it is possible for God to save everyone but, at the same time, will not limit God's sovereign right to choose not to save everyone.
How is this different from every other non-Universalist Christian theology? I'm having a hard time seeing how this is Universalism at all. I am aware of two types of Universalism, though. One I'm familiar with being called "Ultra-Universalism" (Ernest Cassara uses this term and it would apply to Hosea Ballou) which is like instant salvation, when one dies one is immediately reconciled with Christ. This is what the PBU's hold as well, except that they believe that the dead sleep unaware of time until the Resurrection, and at that point all are saved (from the subjective view of the dead person, this is instant). Then there is "Restorationist Universalism" like Winchester's, which says that there will be punishment for sin after death but it is not eternal punishment and one will eventually be reunited with God. This is still unavoidable reconciliation and there is nothing one can do to get in the way of eventual salvation. — coelacan talk — 19:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One of the hallmarks of Calvinism is limited atonement and that some are predestined for eternal damnation. Most Evangelicals believe that, in order to be saved, a person must be evangelized and make a profession of faith usually by saying the sinner's prayer. Saying otherwise caused Bishop Pearson to be labelled a heretic and led to the desertion of a lot of his Evangelical followers. Your distinction in universalism being a) no hell and b) hell is one I was not fully aware of. I knew next to nothing about PBUs and the article is mainly talking about a universalism that is different from UU. Within TU, there is a little trend to "out" some theologians like Barth or Denck (although there is controversy about Denck). Someone (Ansell?) is writing an article "outing" Moltmann. I would call these people 'soft' universalists because their theology points that way, and they would agree that God is capable of saying every one, and He wants to save everyone but they haven't come out and say, yes they believe He will save everyone. The dogmatic ones say He will.Caroline1008 22:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I just noticed that this article refers to Ballou as a Unitarian. I am not an expert, but I was not aware of this. We'll definitely need some refs on that. And I started changing the style of the references all over to "ref" tags but there's so many of them I'll have to come back to it. — coelacan talk — 20:03, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: http://uudb.org/articles/hoseaballou.html is a reference to Ballou saying believing in the Trinity is like believing in infinity X 3. I think most UU sites claim him as Unitarian as well as Universalist. Caroline1008 22:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well there you go. Thanks! — coelacan talk — 22:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Types 

message: I'm getting good leads with a google search on "german baptist brethren" OR dunkers AND universalism. They apparently at some time in the past had adopted a strain of Universalist thinking, though of what sort exactly and how long it persisted I am unsure. We also have some Quaker Universalists who seem to be a thriving minority among modern Quakers. — coelacan talk — 06:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  other interesting Universalist, non-Unitarian groups 

message: Responding to your latest posts in this section and the one below, Caroline: I think it's pretty clear also that no article is going to present "a unified theory of universalism" because the different approaches sometimes begin even from fundamentally different assumptions. However, they could all be discussed, compared and contrasted in one article. Now, do we want "an article describing universalism or an article explainig universalism"? Ideally, we should try to do both, to the extent that we can without performing original research, which Wikipedia forbids. I am afraid that, despite all the sourcing, this article nevertheless is synthesizing original research. I'll get back to this in a moment. 
The problem remains that there are many Universalists who are Trinitarian in their thinking who are not represented by this article and could not be represented by this article with its current emphasis on ultra-Trinitarianism (I hope this term is okay, I don't know what else to call it since "generic" Trinitarianism is not usually so ardently ephasized). You said below that no Unitarians are being cited here, and that's fine, but the fact is that there are other Universalists who are Trinitarian who apparently could nevertheless not be included here, even though the name of the article suggests they should (Pearson's church, Primitive Baptist Universalists, Quaker Universalists, and Dunkers to the extent that they were Universalist). And I don't know why you brought up Arianism, Tritheism and Modalism, as all of these groups I've mentioned are strictly Trinitarian. The PBUs are also very conservative, and most Dunkers are ultra-conservative (although not quite so much as the Amish), and neither group is new.
:A quote from James Torrance: "It is highly significant that in our century, so many leading theologians have been calling the Church back to the centrality of the Trinity - Barth, Rahner, T.F. Torrance, Moltmann, Jungel, Zizioulas, Gunton and others. More and more theologians are becoming aware of the extent to which our Western concepts of God in Roman Catholic and Prostestant thought owe more to Aristotle, Stoic concepts of natural law, Western jurisprudence, post-Englightenment thought, than to the God of the New Testament, who in the person of the Son is revealed as our Father, drawing us by the Spirit of adoption into a life of communion and of participaton, in worship, prayer and mission in the very Triune life of God."
:If anyone can name 3-5 leading theologians writing in the last 100 years who do not ground their work on Trinitarianism, then I'll admit I've been over the top by grounding universalism on Trinitarianism. If, as James Torrance posits, all theology begins with the Trinity, then....Caroline1008 05:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In precisely what way does Trinitarianism lead to Universalism? What is the lineage of thought there? I'm not familiar enough with conservative Christianity to know off the top of my head how Universalism is understood to derive from Trinitarianism. — coelacan talk — 06:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In brief (and with zero nuance :-)), God exists eternally as 3 in 1 in a communion of love and perichoresis. In one point in history, Christ enters creation and took on the form of man. He is fully God and fully man (Chalcedonian Creed). His death on the cross atoned for the sins of the world and He drew all mankind to Him in His resurrection and ascension into the inner life of the Triune God (perichoresis). Caroline1008 13:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This appears to be simple universal reconciliation by divine atonement and grace. The same derivation would apply to hypothetical Tritheistic or Modalist Universalisms. I can see that it works for Trinitarianism, but it is not theoretically unique to Trinitarianism. But I do see what you're saying. You've answered the question to my satisfaction, but I don't think that it applies exclusively to TU. — coelacan talk — 18:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

text: for your proposed article, what would you say is the reason that Christian Universalists believe in universalism? What made them think that all people will be saved when prevailing opinion is that most people are going to hell? Matthew wrote that broad is the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it. Why do some Universalists believe there is no hell or that hell is life right now when Jesus described vividly what hell is like? What about justice for those who suffered evil? Perhaps the unifier in universalism :) is finding out why they believe what they believe. Caroline1008 04:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not exactly my decision to make. Wikipedia is only to catalogue others' work. For me to put forward any such theory of my own would be WP:OR. But whatever is already published can be used for citation. I have noticed several lines of thought for the why's and how's. A comprehensive article would seek to catalogue and investigate each of those lines. — coelacan talk — 05:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just trying to get a handle on how familiar my fellow editors are about universalism and universalists. I'm not familiar with PBUs and no hellers at all. I've read the one book by Quaker Universalists, If Grace is True, but I'll rate my familiarity with them as low to middling. I've a pretty good handle on how the UU came to be and what they believe. I'm an expert on the biblical, evangelical kind. I am also familiar with various Christian concepts of atonement, salvation and hell as well as the historical development of these doctrines. If we can't agree on a very basic concept of what is liberal Christianity and what is conservative, it might be a torturous process. At the very least, would you agree the Quakers consider themselves liberal but the biblical, evangelical kinds (MacDonald and Bonda) consider themselves conservative? Caroline1008 10:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Quakers are such a diverse group that one could not call the movement as a whole either liberal or conservative; I'm not prepared to make that call. But I don't think that it's going to be necessary or desirable to pin each and every group as either conservative or liberal. There are groups that I would say straddle the middle. If we limit the discussion to infalliblism there remains the huge debate about which scriptures are literal and which are symbolic. An infallibilist who, when in doubt, leans toward a symbolic interpretation, can arrive at a result that looks uncannily similar to the result reached by a fallibilist. Indeed almost any particular exegesis is possible to reach from either starting point, depending on the mood and predilection of the reader. In any case, labelling any group as liberal or conservative is WP:OR and forbidden here, except when we have external, reliable sources that specifically say "liberal" or "conservative", and when we have those sources then there's no need to work it out on a talk page. I'm not interested in doing original research, and I fail to see what the ultimate benefit of such labelling would be, except that you appear to want to enforce a strict dichotomy. If you're still thinking about moving the article to Universalism in Christianity, let me know; if you've made up your mind to leave it here, let me know that too. If you're uncertain then ask more questions but I think that the most important question you need to consider is whether this article can survive AfD. — coelacan talk — 18:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But consider this crucial cifference. It is perfectly okay for Liberal Christians and Unitarians to believe in universalism. Here is a quote from wikipedia's Liberal Christianity "Liberal Christianity tends to have a wider scope in its views on salvation (including universalism)." Christians from conservative denominations (Evangelicals, Presbyterian, Pentecostals etc.) are not suppose to believe in universalism. It is heresy. And if they do believe, they are censured by their community. Look at what happened to Bishop C. Pearson. So you have one large group that belongs to communities that accept universalism. And you have one tiny minority who belong to a large anti-universalism group. This tiny (but growing minority) says the core doctrine of their parent group drives them to universalism. Is this minority group distinctive enough from the universalists found in liberal Christianity and Unitarian Universalist churches to warrant a separate article? I think they do and I think there have been enough published by the theologians of this group to not be Original Research by moi :-) I have never published anything. Caroline1008 02:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

text: We should also include the Concordant Publishing Concern in the article. They are Unitarian but Conservative (biblical literalists) Universalists. They differ from Unitarian Universalist because they base all their doctrine on a very literal reading of the bible, often in the original Greek. Caroline1008 13:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: a really long (sorry about that) reply to Caroline

message: I would never reveal what is written in private email but Gregory MacDonald has given me permission to post this after I told him about the debate here. The following is a quote from him.
"Using me against you - I see why they say what they do but they are mistaken. Whilst I may only mention the word "Trinity" once (or only a few times) I think that my universalism is intergally trinitarian. However, one of the weaknesses of my book is that I do not bring that out clearly enough so I cannot blame them for missing it. I can only ask them to go back and read the book again. Feel free to quote me on that (not that it would do any good).
I would oppose merging this with a general article on Christian universalism that included unitarians. Call me old fashiod but I do not consider unitarianism to be orthodox Christianity. I am quite open about considering it heresy. This is not to say that I don't think unitarians can be lovely, sincere people who have grasped some central truths about Jesus and God (including some that many trinitarians have missed). However, their unitarian version of 'Christianity' is, whilst sincere, mistaken in a major way. Trinitarianism means far more to me than universalism and I would associate myself more closely with trinitarians who believe in eternal conscious torment that unitarian universalists even if the latter are right about the universalism. 
 
So I think Wikipedia needs at least two articles: Unitarian Universalism (this clearly warrants an article) and orthodox Christian Universalism (which will be trinitarian whether it be ultra trinitarian or not ultra ???). This would be fine and it would allow some toning down in the emphasis on trinity whilst at the same time only including trinitarian universalists. It could mention unitarians and include a link to their article.
 
What is ultra-trinitarian? I have obviously drunk too much wine but I don't think it is possible to be too trinitarian. To my mind it is THE central Christian doctrine around which the whole of Christian theology orbits. Merging the article with universal reconciliation would be OK if it was a merger and not a take-over. Why do they wish to merge? Why not just have links to each other? Grrrrr" Caroline1008 03:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A Response from Gregory MacDonald

message: Barth and Torrance don't deny a hell, as much as they say we can't limit the friendliness of God.  It is his choice whether or not to save all.  I believe they would call it a "universal hope" as in we can hope all are saved, but have objections to being called universalists.  Others slap the "universalism" title on those who believe in this "Trinitarian Theology".  Ergo, I still don't like the title and the POV slant. Hopquick 11:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Universalism as a POV 

message: I have a problem with this section. It says that all three points cannot be true at the same time, and it says that Arminians resolve the problem by disagreeing with the first point, that God is omnipotent and sovereign. This is a Calvinist misrepresentation. Arminians don't believe that all three points cannot be true. They argue that God wants all to be saved, and in his sovereignty extends the gift of salvation to all, but he also allows the gift to be refused - which is why there are people going to hell. According to Arminians, God's plan is not to offer salvation only to some, who cannot refuse it, but to offer it to all and allow people the choice to either accept or refuse it. Arminians believe in original sin and total depravity, which means that no one can come to faith on his own, but "prevenient grace", or the work of the Holy Spirit in lives of unbelievers, draws one towards Christ so that he is given the free will to accept or reject the gift. Because God is the One Who "set the rules", He is still sovereign.
You may disagree and think this is unbiblical or contradictory, but when you're describing the Arminian viewpoint, you need to represent it accurately.
So IMO, the article should reflect that Mr. Talbot believes that the 3 propositions are not compatible, and that Arminians believe in the sovereignty of God, but dispute his view of the implications of that.
I've never edited an article, though; can someone else suggest a possible way to correct this?--24.29.207.172 (talk) 03:52, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: A problem with the philosophy section

message: A brief outline of Trinitarian theology is off topic when introducing Trinitarian Universalism? Several sections are said to be duplicates of other wikipedia articles AND original research. Really? I've removed the labels because they didn't make sense.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.93.67.170 () 03:06, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, tags restored. here. There's reasonable cause for most if not all of these tags. Before removing the tags some address/discussion of the relevant problem is needed. Cheers :Is a brief outline of Trinitarian theology is off topic when introducing Trinitarian Universalism? I don't know. We'd have to look at that specific tag. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:13, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I looked at the 3 tags on Core Trinitarian doctrine - the other 2 are more an issue than tag 1 for straying, but this is really not needed, a link to Trinitarianism would be enough and is already there. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:15, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Labels 

message: The main issue with this article is that it needs to focus on TRINITARIAN Universalism and leave the major Universalist topics to Christian Universalism.
To that end, I have removed the Biblical Passages objections and response... I don't think it can be put into the Christian Universalism article, because a lot of it is unsourced.... Sethie (talk) 13:10, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Begun CLeanup