Talk:Hossein Fatemi

message: This article is not only biased but factually incorrect and incomplete. I would have it reviewed by a true historian.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.85.114.166 (talk) 17:12, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: anon complaint

message: I've added a tag  
.... because the article is so bad. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:02, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This is is a misuse of the tag. There is nothing in the article that's factually inaccurate. I am removing the tag. Kurdo777 (talk) 20:05, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

text: Your proposed tags are inappropriate. The article needs no cleaning. And your arguments about "inaccuracies" are nothing but WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. The citations do support the text. You are just misinterpreting the sources. "Before the coup" means before the coup that succeed, and after the initial coup attempt. Anything that happened before August 19th is "before the coup". That's already covered in the article. Fatemi started attacking Shah after the initial coup attempt, for what he saw as Shah's treason to his country. An opinion shared by many at that time. Fatemi was a cynic and a tactician, while Mossadegh was passive and trusting by nature. Mossadegh's biggest mistake was not listening to likes of Fatemi , Bakhtiar and Shaygan, to arrest, dismiss, and put on trial all the coup plotters and collaborators for treason. Instead, he cracked down on Tudeh and anti-monarchy rioters.  Kurdo777 (talk) 22:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If Fatemi had hunted down and arrested the coup plotters, he would have been blind-sided by the clerics. Binksternet (talk) 22:58, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

text: let's say you're right about "the coup" being a reference to August 18 not 15. What about the rest? the lack of clarity, the stuff Fatemi said about the shah that you've left out? the crappy citations? --BoogaLouie (talk) 23:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Tag: Disputed

message: I'm going to give a  tag to the article and give my reasons here: 
<BR>First off, the Hossein Fatemi#Arrest and execution section is confusing. In August 1953, Mossadegh's government was overthrown by a CIA-orchestrated coup d'état. On 14 August, Fatemi was to be arrested along with Mosaddegh and other close associates, but the first U.S.-led coup attempt failed. Fatemi was arrested by Shah's guards in such a hurry that he was not allowed to put shoes on, but he was released on the morning of the 15th and went directly to Mosaddegh's residence.
He was arrested but the coup failed. What happened? Was he arrested and then released? Historical accounts say that Imperial Guard Colonel Nematollah Nassiri tried to arrest Mosaddeq but the latter was waiting for him and it was Nassiri who was arrested. Which would make the statement "Fatemi was to be arrested along with Mosaddegh" untrue. 
Another sentence leaves out a lot of rather relevant details: In the aftermath of the first coup attempt, while Mossadegh still remained a strong proponent of constitutional monarchy, Fatemi had advised Mossadeq to declare a republic in light of "Shah's treason" and collaboration with foreigners.  But Fatemi rather strongly supported opposed the Shah before the coup in general:<BR> 
"before the coup he had openly denounced the Shah as a `venomous serpent.`" 
<BR>... and after the attempted coup he didn't just want a republic he wanted the shah swinging from a rope:<BR> "The Baghdad fugitive belongs on the scaffold." 
<BR>Surely this is as relevent to the story as whether "Fatemi was arrested by Shah's guards in such a hurry that he was not allowed to put shoes on"!! --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:52, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Your proposed tags are inappropriate. The article needs no cleaning. And your arguments about "inaccuracies" are nothing but WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. The citations do support the text. You are just misinterpreting the sources. "Before the coup" means before the coup that succeed, and after the initial coup attempt. Anything that happened before August 19th is "before the coup". That's already covered in the article. Fatemi started attacking Shah after the initial coup attempt, for what he saw as Shah's treason to his country. An opinion shared by many at that time. Fatemi was a cynic and a tactician, while Mossadegh was passive and trusting by nature. Mossadegh's biggest mistake was not listening to likes of Fatemi , Bakhtiar and Shaygan, to arrest, dismiss, and put on trial all the coup plotters and collaborators for treason. Instead, he cracked down on Tudeh and anti-monarchy rioters.  Kurdo777 (talk) 22:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If Fatemi had hunted down and arrested the coup plotters, he would have been blind-sided by the clerics. Binksternet (talk) 22:58, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

text: let's say you're right about "the coup" being a reference to August 18 not 15. What about the rest? the lack of clarity, the stuff Fatemi said about the shah that you've left out? the crappy citations? --BoogaLouie (talk) 23:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Bias and bad writing

message: Fatemi had advised Mossadeq to declare a republic in light of "Shah's treason" and collaboration with foreigners. Neither says anything about "collaboration with foreigners" (but uncomplementary stuff about Fatemi that is said -- "violently anti-Shah remarks of Fatemi" were in part "instrumental in persuading the general public that Mossadeq was on the verge of eliminating the monarchy" -- appear nowhere in the article.)  --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Your proposed tags are inappropriate. The article needs no cleaning. And your arguments about "inaccuracies" are nothing but WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. The citations do support the text. You are just misinterpreting the sources. "Before the coup" means before the coup that succeed, and after the initial coup attempt. Anything that happened before August 19th is "before the coup". That's already covered in the article. Fatemi started attacking Shah after the initial coup attempt, for what he saw as Shah's treason to his country. An opinion shared by many at that time. Fatemi was a cynic and a tactician, while Mossadegh was passive and trusting by nature. Mossadegh's biggest mistake was not listening to likes of Fatemi , Bakhtiar and Shaygan, to arrest, dismiss, and put on trial all the coup plotters and collaborators for treason. Instead, he cracked down on Tudeh and anti-monarchy rioters.  Kurdo777 (talk) 22:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If Fatemi had hunted down and arrested the coup plotters, he would have been blind-sided by the clerics. Binksternet (talk) 22:58, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

text: let's say you're right about "the coup" being a reference to August 18 not 15. What about the rest? the lack of clarity, the stuff Fatemi said about the shah that you've left out? the crappy citations? --BoogaLouie (talk) 23:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: citations given don't support the text

message: Darioush Bayandor is not an an appropriate source for 1953-related articles, including this one. Some call him a fringe source enraged in Historical revisionism (negationism)  , some have questioned his independence and reliability as a source , while others have simply said that giving any weight to his controversial views, violates WP:UNDUE.  What's clear though, is that there is a community consensus of at least 8 different editors that Bayandor is not an appropriate source for these topics. Kurdo777 (talk) 06:19, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Darioush Bayandor, not an appropriate source for 1953-related articles 

message: Fatemi's newspaper was burned down 19 August 1953, we all agree. The New York Times printed a story by James Risen which said that the leader of the street mob was an Iranian CIA agent, a journalist "without specific orders" was the one who incited a crowd to burn down Fatemi's newspaper office. I wrote "acting on his own initiative" so that I would stay true to "without specific orders" while following the requirement not to violate copyright. The meaning is the same. With no specific orders to burn down Fatemi's newspaper, the agent was acting on his own initiative when he decided to do so. This removal by Kurdo777 was unneeded, and the edit summary, "could not be found in the cited source" is wrong. Binksternet (talk) 19:08, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newspaper burned down 

message: This addition to the article reverted my removal of the word "tortured", giving it a new source from Mansoor Moaddel's 1986 book A sociological analysis of the Iranian Revolution, Volume 1. I see no such assertion from Moaddel, so I am tagging the supposed citation as unverified. Binksternet (talk) 19:08, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: "The more militant members of the National Front, such as Hosein Fatemi, were tortured and killed in Prison" . Professor Masoud Kazemzadeh also says that they "raped Dr. Fatemi's wife in front of his eyes".  Kurdo777 (talk) 19:28, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Odd question: I wonder why you accept Kazemzadeh who holds that Shi'a clerics had a strong hand in the 1953 coup, but you do not like Bayandor who holds that Shi'a clerics had a strong hand in the 1953 coup. Binksternet (talk) 20:19, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  First of all, I have no problem with, and actually agree with, the assertion that certain politically-active reactionary clerics like Kashani played a role in the 1953 coup. The keyword being "a role". That said, Bayndor and Kazemzadeh are actually similar cases when it comes partisanship, from opposite sides of the spectrum that is. Although, unlike Bayondor who worked for Shah, Kazemzadeh never worked for Mossadegh. But I would still argue that Kazemzadeh, having been an active member of the National Front in later years, is not an independent source on these topics either, which is why I did not cite him on this article. Kurdo777 (talk) 21:17, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Torture per Moaddel

message: I did a copyedit on the Legacy section, but it could use a look from someone familiar with the topic. In the second half of the paragraph, it's not clear to me whether it's meant to read that the other Persian Gulf countries were following Fatemi's example or the Shah's. Eric talk 17:35, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legacy section clarity