Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles/Archive 1

message: I have found no reference to this on Wikipedia. I would like to see all surnames that begin with "Mc" alphabetised as though they were "Mac", e.g. in categories. This is what the eircom phonebook does. A number of Irish Wikipedians also seem to do it this way. You will find categories with a mixture of both policies.
Obviously, this would affect the MoS for the whole of Wikipedia; it can't be contained to Irish articles. Scottish editors might also have an opinion on the matter, and, of course, many Americans have "Mc" surnames. What do people think?
Ian Cheese 22:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: US phone books have Mac and Mc alphabetized separately (no special treatment vs. other names). You're right that it can't be contained to Irish articles, which makes Ireland-specific style probably not work in this case. But at least Ireland doesn't have it as bad as Iceland in terms of world phone book organization disparity! :) --Craig Stuntz 13:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I've started a more general discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Categorization_of_people#Category_sort_key:_surnames jnestorius(talk) 13:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alphabetisation of "Mc" and "Mac" in surnames

message: I propose that the following preferred style be added to this page:
:Articles about a location in Ireland should be named, where possible, in the form Locationname (e.g. Tralee).
:Where a location, such as a town, requires disambiguation, the format should be Townname, County Countyname. For example, Kill, County Kildare where Kill is not an appropriate location for the article.
:Locations in County Dublin should use the format Locationname, Dublin. For example, Swords, Dublin where Swords is not appropriate. This avoids the need to distinguish between city and county, or more particularly, Dublin's four county-level authorities.
:Where a town and county have the same name, the county article should be named as County Countyname, and the town should be located at County/townname (if no further disambiguation is needed). For example, Sligo and County Sligo.
Thoughts? The existing articles on towns in Ireland near-universally follow the above format.
zoney  ♣ talk 13:57, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation of locations in Ireland 

message: I suggest amending this section as follows:
:Once the article name is established, any alternate name for the locale should be provided on the first line of the article (whether or not the name is widely used), as well as the proper location in the information box. The first sentence of the article should use the form "Townname (Irish: Ainmbhaile)" as follows:
 Townname (Irish: Ainmbhaile)
:The remainder of the article should use only the place name as titled in the article
and continuing from there. This is just to ensure consistent formatting; that "Irish" is linked and disambiguated to Irish language, with the actual Irish placename being italicised.
zoney  ♣ talk 14:09, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish names in content 

message: I've noticed a small ambiguity in the current wording of the guidelines on naming people and this has to do with the question when a space should be included after Mac in surnames.
Paragraph one states:
:1 If someone used the Irish version of his or her name, and this enjoyed and enjoys widespread usage among Irish and English speakers, this should be reflected in Wikipedia. Thus, we refer to Máirtín Ó Cadhain, not "Martin Kyne"; Tomás Ó Fiaich, not "Thomas Fee", etc.
Taking this then, we should refer to Tomás Mac Giolla using the Irish version of his name. However, paragraph 3 specifies:
:3 In Irish orthography, there is a space between Mac and the rest of the surname, e.g. Seán Mac Eoin, Seán Mac Stíofáin etc. In English orthography, there is no space between the Mc or Mac and the rest of the surname.
I think some clarification is necessary in both paragraph three, and I propose that they be re-worded thus (changes in bold):
:1 If someone used the Irish version of his or her name, and this enjoyed and enjoys widespread usage among Irish and English speakers, this should be reflected in Wikipedia. Thus, we refer to Máirtín Ó Cadhain, not "Martin Kyne"; Tomás Mac Giolla, not "Tom Gill" or "Tomas MacGiolla", etc.
:3 In Irish orthography, there is a space between Mac and the rest of the surname, e.g. Seán Mac Eoin, Seán Mac Stíofáin etc. In Wikipedia, therefore, a space should be included after Mac if the surname is in the Irish language. In English orthography, there is no space between the Mc or Mac and the rest of the surname.
What do people think?--Damac 15:29, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hmm. I don't personally think that the original versions of Paragraphs 1 and 3 are ambiguous. But, of course, if others do, there should be a revision.--Cat Constantine 21:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither do I; I wrote them. However, we've had a number of re-namings recently, some by senior contributors, so the paragraphs need to be made more precise to prevent this happening.--Damac 05:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is Tomas MacGiolla really English orthography though? I'd have thought that's just a poorly rendered version of the Irish name. --Kwekubo 13:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Space after Mc/Mac? 

message: Is there any convention on the appropriate reference to Ireland where what is being described is a genuinely island-wide phenomenon, or where the phenomoneon exists more to the North of the island (such as a geographical phenomoneon to do with the weather, social habits, etc.) where the border does not have any practical apparent significance? The problem arises because one cannot use Northern Ireland synonymously with the North of the island and on the other hand you don't want to give the impression you are deliberately avoiding reference to Northern Ireland.
The problem arose on the Coleraine aritlce re. the town centre being referred to as a "Diamond", something, I am assured, whcih occurs also in the North of the Republic. Having raised the matter on two other talk pages the two users who responded both felt that it was just not worth the hassle of referring to the north of the island. Am I being naive in thinking there must be some way of referring to the north of the island that most reasonable people from different political perspectives would find acceptable?Lucifer 11:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree Halib, Donegal is built to the diamond set up as and that is obviously in the north of the island and still in the republic. Beaumontproject 11:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Politically neutral references to Ireland (the island)

message: Currently metric units are been given second place over imperial in County Down, comments are welcome at talk:County Down. Their may be an implication for this manual of style. Djegan 23:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Imperial vs. Metric: County Down

message: Their is a vote to move Cork to Cork (city), not all the proposals confirm to this manual of style, for voting and discussion see talk:Cork#Survey. Djegan 12:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cork

message: Was this ever resolved? See Ballinderry - there's so much POV on this page, I don't know where to start!
NotMuchToSay 17:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see how you might not want the Irish Volunteers member mentioned on the page, but where else is there point of view? -- Pauric (talk-contributions) 14:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Volunteer - again 

message: When you are driving on the roads of Northern Ireland the road signs telling you what way a town is.  Is in English NOT irish.  More then 75% of people in Northern Ireland speak English, the system to paid by UK tax payers NOT irish tax payers.Newtownards 01:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: However wikipedia is not paid for out taxes so it's really something that is considered. Truro includes it's Cornish name.Geni 03:39, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

text: In parts of the UK, non-English languages are widely used for public information, as public service and to disseminate information. In the Brick Lane area, in London, a strongly Bengali area, street names are in Bengali and English. Previously, when it was a Jewish area, Yiddish was used on the streetnames. In Wales, Welsh is an official language. The point is, as a monoglot Brit, I don't mind any of this - it neither threatens me nor does it seem a pointless waste of cash. Plenty of UK citizens have English as a second language, but still pay taxes. So, Irish is used in Northern Ireland. This is the UK - inclusive! Hurrah! Don't allow Irish to become the preserve of any one political group. Folks at 137 08:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Perhaps you are forgetting that Northern Ireland is part of the island of Ireland, and that the vast majority of the names of places in Ireland are the poorly anglicised original Irish names. Maybe we should just go the whole hog, and start denying what island we're on, and claim it's part of England, and become historical revisionists and just deny ireland or the thousands of years of history before thte Anglo-Saxon invasions ever happened? I for one vote to change the name of the six counties to West Britain. -- Pauric (talk-contributions) 14:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh dear. Perhaps I expressed myself badly. My point is I see no problem in the use of Irish in or about Ireland (or north London, where that helps). I was pointing out that this country (the UK) is usually inclusive. In addition, as a reference work, Wiki has to record English and Irish equivalents (and Scandinavian) when appropriate. Pauric, perhaps you may have mistaken my drift. Folks at 137 18:11, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry Folks at 137, that was aimed at the Newtownards user, I just indented badly. -- Pauric (talk-contributions) 22:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Well even if that was the case (which it isn't, the Ards part come from thre Irish for heights/hills).....not all town in the six counties are called Newtownards. The vast majority of places are as Pauric says, bad Anglicised version of the original Irish names. Also there are plenty of places were you can hear people talking Irish. Derry Boi 17:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes I am from Ireland, South Derry to be precise. and yes I am Irish, and I know where Ards is (and believe it or not Ards is derived from the  Irish language, and therefore so is Newtownards. What exactly is your point? Derry Boi 12:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Some information about the official status of Irish in Northern Ireland and the number of people in the province who can speak Irish is here. Curtains99 22:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Want Irish to be removed from Northern Ireland towns and cities 

message: Re: "A large number of Republic of Ireland towns and villages (and other types of articles too) state that they are in Ireland, not Republic of Ireland in the opening paragraph. This is misleading as it creates the impression that Ireland is one state. A compromise has been proposed at WP:IWNB that the form "is a town on the coast of County Cork, Ireland" should be used. This is already widely used and will allow it to appear as Ireland whilst linking to Republic of, as per Follow local conventions."
To quote Sarah777, this is nonsense, rubbish and tripe. Using the word Ireland gives the impression it is one state? How, exactly? The power of republican positive thinking? This is absolute bilge, and seems to be the work of Ben W Bell, acting unilaterally. Despite being told of an "agreement" and a "compromise", I found neither. Not here, not at WP:IWNB.
Lapsed Pacifist 21:17, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: LP - I fundementally disagree with you, "Republic of Ireland" should be used. But considering that you where a big pusher of "six counties" I am not the least surprised at your comments. As you can only name one person who supports your view thats prima-facie evidence that only one person actually (in addition to yourself) supports your view. Regards. Djegan 23:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excuse me? The work of myself acting unilaterally? I had absolutely nothing to do with the implementation of this style section, I've simply followed it on ocassion. Ben W Bell talk 07:22, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The conversation took place at Wikipedia:Irish wikipedians' notice board/Archive13#Naming of Republic of Ireland towns/villages. Stu ’Bout ye! 08:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

text: That was discussed as part of the conversation to reach a compromise that led to the agreement. See the discussion that Stu pointed to. --sony-youthpléigh 11:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason we didn't use Republic of Ireland for the state south and west of the line is that most editors on Wikipedia from that country objected to using just Republic of Ireland as it isn't the state's name, but Ireland is the official name. This aspect of the conversation can be found on the Republic of Ireland talk page. Ben W Bell talk 07:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The main discussion is on the talk page but there was even a straw poll on this and the results of that are here. ww2censor 12:48, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Republicanism's Norman Vincent Peale

message: It may be helpful to add that when the English spoken in Ireland differs from other varieties of English, it should be followed in Irish articles; this is already in MOS itself, as national varieties of English, but it may tend to turn down the heat here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Irish English

message: Browsed to the Lurgan article and noted that it had the UK places infobox. I thought that it should have been the Ireland places infobox? There could be more, have't checked. --Bill Reid | Talk 09:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've noticed that too...is this something that should be changed when encountered, or should it just be left alone? Perhaps raising it on the article's talk page in the first instance would be the best option. Martin 01:15, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Came across this by accident, but I have an interest. Since, say, Lurgan is both in the UK and in Ireland, what are the arguments against using the UK box? I don't mean political ones, since this is unlikely to be reconciled here. The Irish one (as used for Dublin) has several items that are not relevant for a place in the UK (Dail constituency, IEpostcode, etc) whereas the UK one contains items relevant to NI as well as the UK in general. (BTW, this is a genuine query, not a wind-up.) Folks at 137 20:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, to be pedantic, Lurgan is in Northern Ireland, part of the United Kingdom, and on the island of Ireland - therefore using the Irish infobox makes no sense. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 22:44, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NI places infobox