Talk:Swaminarayan Sampraday

message: Jay Swaminarayan to all,
                          
Jai Swaminarayan to all devotees,
I would like to request all users who have an interest and knowledge of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya to add their input to this discussion. I have copied, pasted and edited sections and come up with a rough draft, which is nowhere near complete. However we could use it as a basis or an aid to re-structure the actual article. Rather than personal edits if we present ideas on the page and then if we come to a concensus then we can implement the changes. Your co-operation is much appreciated.
Haribhagat 12:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-structuring the article 

message: Jai Swaminarayan,
With the Swaminarayan Sampradaya page now looking adequate enough, i would now like to request users to turn their attention to the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page. We must get a section on tha page which states that Bhagwan Swaminarayan set up a Sampradaya and the Key components of the Sampradaya(ie Murti, Acharyas, Shastras, Sant, Haribhaktos). At the moment it is lacking this information therefore making it incomplete. Now users of the BAPS sect are dead against this as it does not go to their liking, but we must make sure that the inclusion of this information is agreed. Remember the article should represent quality and accurate information which we should endeavour to provide. It does not need to be long but should explain the basics. I have challenged various users on the Bhagwan Swaminarayan talk page and they seem to have backed down on the points which i make. I have also posted the same to Sfacets talk page and as of yet there has been no reply. If we could re-emphasise the point with the backing of a few users (Which requires you to register) then our proposal will have more effect. Let me know what you think.
Haribhagat 12:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bhagwan Swaminarayan 

message: It had been decided some time back for the page Shree Swaminarayan Sampraday to be merged with Bhagwan Swaminarayan why are people going against this now please can this be done because the Acharya's section is very much to do with the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page so why are you now splitting it up??
It has now been decided (see discussion on the Bhagwan Swaminarayan article) to split it. Please do not add information already found there to this article, sign in and/or sign your comments. Thanks, Sfacets 04:53, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questions/Queries 

message: Look, I'm not too happy either that the BAPS link has to be on this page, but as long as the link to this article is on the BAPS page, the BAPS link will stay UNDETERRED. Moksha88 14:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links 

message: Haribhagat, could you please provide sources proving your claims? Failing this, it will be removed as OR (original research). Sfacets 14:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: BAPS - Offshoot - sources

message: I have made pages for 6 Mandirs made by Lord Swaminarayan - Ahmedabad, Vadtal, Bhuj, Dholera, Junagadh and Gadhada and linked them to the Swaminarayan Sampraday page.I request all to help prepare these pages with all the info that they have - please contribute to these pages wherever possible.
Swaminobhakt 10:23, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mandir's

message: This article already covers Swaminarayan faith.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 04:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am confused now, Are the Sampraday and BAPS, 2 sub-sects/institutions of the faith??? If so, remove the merge proposal and note so in the article. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 13:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me explain - Bhagwan Swaminarayan established the Swaminarayan Sampraday. He istalled the Acharyas as heads of the Sampraday (something accepted by courts). Down the line, there has been a difference of philosophy and other grups like BAPS, Swaminarayan Gadi etc have been formed by people not accepting the Acharyas - today there are 5 organisations claiming successorship. Around The GlobeContact 15:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please explain this in the lead of both articles.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 05:09, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

text:  Support merge. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  12:42, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Close as merge. Around The Globeसत्यमेव जयते 11:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: Pl. explain reason for current merge tag. Around The Globeसत्यमेव जयते 10:24, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Support merge. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  12:42, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Close as merge. Around The Globeसत्यमेव जयते 11:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: New Merge tag

message: Merge! Redheylin (talk) 00:21, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Support merge. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  12:42, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Close as merge. Around The Globeसत्यमेव जयते 11:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: From Talk: Shree Swaminarayan Sampraday Survey

message: What does "now nivrut Acharya of the Ahmedabad gaadi" mean? What is nivrut and gaadi? Technical terms need to be linked or explained. --AW (talk) 14:19, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I clarified the Gadi part in the beginning --AW (talk) 14:39, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unclear words? 

message: I disagree with World's edits; Swaminaryan followers fundamentally differ from practically all Hindus in believing that He is the Supreme Being himself. Also his followers differ from practically all Vaishnavite schools in holding that Vishnu and Shiva are different aspects of the same supreme God, unlike Madhva of the Dvaita school and Chaitanya. This is significant and should be noted. Raj2004 (talk) 01:19, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Please continue discussion on Talk:Swaminarayan and move this comment under my comments as well. Thanks The World 01:23, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: World's edits

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Swaminarayan Sampraday. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090224190106/http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com:80/articleshow/879612.cms to http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/879612.cms
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Swaminarayan Sampraday. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20131214140729/http://www.vadtaldhamnj.info/My_Final_Webdesign/PDF%27s/Articles/Niskulanand%20Swami.pdf to http://www.vadtaldhamnj.info/My_Final_Webdesign/PDF%27s/Articles/Niskulanand%20Swami.pdf
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In verifying the statements in this article, could you please list the page number referenced for this sentence, “Swaminarayana is also being criticised for being supportive of the caste system”? I was looking in the chapter and couldn’t seem to find it. Moksha88 (talk) 06:06, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  click on the link, you’ll be landed on the page which states this.— Harshil want to talk? 06:56, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

text: Kirin Narayan source still needs page numbers. If you could tell me the chapter name, or page range, I can deliver you a PDF of chapter from Paywall database, so that you can add page numbers. Or you can use an online copy on Google books. --Gazal world (talk) 20:36, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Let me give some time. When I opened this book in the Google book then page numbers were not visible and others pages were not in preview. What we have to do is searching by words. Regards,— Harshil want to talk? 02:28, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verifiability 

message: As I was verifying the source, Chapter 6 (Sahajanand Swami's Approach to Caste), in the same reference used to cite “Swaminarayana is also being criticised for being supportive of the caste system,” contains many statements that refute that Swaminarayan was supportive of the caste system. For example: "[Sahajanand Swami's] principles of atma and Paramatama undergirded Sahajanand Swami's rejection of caste discrimination and distinction" (page 125). This is contradictory to what is being stated in this article. Apollo1203 (talk) 13:16, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added the page number for the quote cited in the article. As I have used the Oxford Scholarship Online copy, I have changed the URL from Google book to Oxford Scholarship, which is behind the paywall database. If you want to refer the chapter, feel free to ask me, I will deliver you a PDF of the chapter through mail. Thanks. --Gazal world (talk) 20:33, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradictory Claims 

message: Removed the sentence ‘situation of women in the Swaminarayan sect’ due to lack of source and no mention in the body of the article. This violates policy  WP:VERIFIABILITY.Treehugger8891 (talk) 01:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I have reinstated it as Kajal Oza Vaidhya had recently took a dig at Nilkanth varni for situation of women.-- Harshil want to talk? 04:49, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Either way, it was never reflected in the article since its creation on September 20th. Please create a section which outlines the criticism before including it in the lead sentence WP:CREATELEAD.Moksha88 (talk) 03:07, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: All things will be added. First resolve pending changes then create another issue.-- Harshil want to talk? 04:33, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: We should remove that line (situation of woman...) from the lead. Because Kaajal Oza Vaidya is not scholar in the field. We don't take seriously her opinion. --Gazal world (talk) 05:04, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are right, WP:CREATELEAD is not a formal policy, just an essay. I meant to quote MOS:LEAD: "Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." This article has been in existence for 2 weeks, and this point has not been addressed. When it has been addressed, you can include it in the lead paragraph. Moksha88 (talk) 05:15, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I believe there are some good points brought up here in this discussion, having said that I believe after thoroughly reading the WP:VERIFIABILITY policy, Kaajal Oza Vaidya's opinion on this matter doesn't seem relevant. I would have to agree with the line of reasoning laid out by Treehugger8891 ThaNDNman224 (talk) 15:24, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Moksha88 that information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article, and it seems that consensus has also been reached on this point, so I am removing it. I have also removed the mention of Murari Bapu in the lead since it is no longer in the article.This will certainly change as the article changes.Sacredsea (talk) 19:23, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction Verifiability 

message: , how sarcastic dig by Morari Bapu qualify as serious criticism of Swaminarayan sect? Criticism is a scholarly study of a subject. Sarcastic dig is hardly qualify as criticism. -Nizil (talk) 05:34, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  still it was criticism as the central figure of the sect was directly criticised and attacked.  Also, in criticism of Islam, there’s mention of such jibes and one sarcastic book namely ‘Rangeela Rasool’.— Harshil want to talk? 05:39, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, we should not add Kaajal Oza Vaidya in reference. She is not a scholar, but a popular columnist and novelist. Her works isn't mentioned as 'significant work' in any 'reference works' or in any books of 'history of literature'. --Gazal world (talk) 05:42, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , Attack is not criticism. Did he criticised any particular aspect of sect or philosophy? At most, I can see that he criticised the use of Nilkanth title. Btw I can not find Rangeela Rasool in Islam or Criticism of Islam.-Nizil (talk) 05:46, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , ohh I found it here. Now, it’s obvious that criticism of Islam and Muhammad are different and so much in detailed and hence different. Here, I’ve added in this section to avoid making new article on Criticisms of Sahjanand as an individual. Sahjanand is the central figure of Swaminarayan and hence, I’ve added it here. Also,  the page I’ve cited here also has commentaries from journalist Katherine Zoepf and Criticism of Islam also includes criticisms from several columnists and journalists. Kajal Oza Vaidhya showed her opinion and it will be not wrong to include it here if we follow same pattern as Wikipedia articles have for criticism of religion.— Harshil want to talk? 06:23, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, Katherine Zoepf ! Atleast, she is an author of several 'scholarly' or 'historical' works. And Kajal Oza Vaidya ? Hope, you get the point. --Gazal world (talk) 06:31, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , Morari Bapu has not criticised Sahajanand. He took a dig at the use of Nilakanth title. Two are different things. And mocking the use of title is hardly a criticism of the sect.-Nizil (talk) 06:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  In the same way, Dayananda Saraswati had also took a dig at Sahjanand. As he objected Sahjanand as presenting himself as Vishnu. Then whole article becomes reluctant here. — Harshil want to talk? 06:38, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I got your point but still Wikipedia articles have opinions from authors and columnists who didn’t produce any scholary work yet. They are in even articles of criticism of religion. — Harshil want to talk? 06:41, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  You missed the point. Dayanand had criticised Sahajanad and Morari Bapu has not criticised Sahajanand. He took a dig at the use of Nilakanth title. Is this any kind of criticism of the sect? [Note: I think you want to say "redundant" in previous comment but instead wrote "reluctant". I get it.] -Nizil (talk) 06:49, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I got your point. But still it’s one type of objection. See the lead section of this article. You’ll find the criticism over use of word Prophet for Muhammad. Firstly, I’ve read all the articles related to criticism of religions and then I had created this one in the lines of it. Morari Bapu objected use of title and he had his own points. Devotees of sect got triggered which created a big controversy in Gujarat. So, in my opinion, this deserves a place. Obviously, I’ll improve it. — Harshil want to talk? 06:57, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Even if Morari Bapu objected use of the title, what was his point? What of his criticism? Dig/mocking is not a serious criticism. The controversy is not important.-Nizil (talk) 07:53, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

text: Simply, Morari Bapu's point was about use of term Nilkanth by Swaminarayan sect. In fact, Swaminarayan sect uses term Nilkanth Varni. Bapu just mocked it by telling that the Nilkanth applies to a person who drank poison, not laddu (a sweet). So what was his serious criticism? Did he told not to use Nilkanth? No, he just mocked its use. My point is that there is no real criticism in whole issue. It was : a mocking by a person, the people of sect feel offended, and the person apologised. I believe the whole section is pointless. Pinging  for third opinion.-Nizil (talk) 05:27, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , refer to BBC source given in the article. Morari Bapu’s whole statement was “Abhisheka can be done only on Nilkanth, all other Nilkanths are fake. You’ve to drink poison to become Nilkanth but you can’t become Nilkanth by eating laddus.” This was serious comment but in sarcastic way on the central figure of sect. Article of BBC clarifies many doubts on how Morari Bapu attack someone. — Harshil want to talk? 05:33, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is in poor shape. We should avoid OR and not extrapolate criticism (or sarcasm) of an individual or individuals to "criticism of a sect/tradition". Similarly, the criticism of a few sadhus or someone alleged to have committed a crime should not be extrapolated into criticism of the Swaminarayan sect. WP:BLP applies here too. A better article will avoid ad hominems, and focus on the criticism of the ideology, themes, beliefs etc of the sect/tradition/religious group. Even there, we must invest due care in reading multiple sources and confirming whether an allegation or opinion is "notable" (WP:Due) by being in multiple "independent" reliable sources, preferably high-quality sources. All criticism should be carefully attributed to the source, avoid using wikipedia voice or universalizing. Mythology-based sarcastic comments/etc based on an interview is not an appropriate source/content and weakens this article. See WP:WWIN. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 10:43, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

text: Welcome to wikipedia. Doesn't matter whether it is dig/praise/reality, it is unencyclopedic and not notable. When someone alleges one must "drink poison to become Nilkanth", this is their opinion. It is from mythology, about mythical/symbolic poison (of unknown composition) just like the mythical/symbolic amrit (also of unknown composition). We do not include every opinion voiced in newspaper or other media in wikipedia articles. It must be notable and of encyclopedic value. Please see WP:WWIN and other content guidelines. A summary of scholarly criticism of this sect would be most welcome. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:37, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with . Outside of the references he has cited, I cannot find other secondary sources which support the notability of these criticisms. Moksha88 (talk) 01:11, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: But , here scholary criticism is not even acceptable as you can find in discussions of moksha and apollo. I cannot cite Dayananda's criticism because it's written by him in his work Satyarth Prakash. Also, I can't add criticism of Mahatma Gandhi directly from his own book because website of BAPS cult is saying something other for Mahatma. And his criticism is not even notable. Okay, I'm blanking the page in 2 days and will request deletion. Many people don't want to tolerate criticism of their swami.-- Harshil want to talk? 04:23, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have only used scholarly references that have been produced by reliable publishing houses; this has been the basis of my edits or corrections to ensure false claims, which are not supported by secondary sources, do not jeopardize the integrity of Wikipedia. My comment here are precisely what  has mentioned. Apollo1203 (talk) 04:37, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am removing Criticism by Morari Bapu section as per third opinion. Thank you  for your time and comment. [Note: ] , hope it clarifies. I believe that the issue regarding Morari Bapu comment is now settled. Other discussion can be carried on. -Nizil (talk) 05:56, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sarcastic dig and criticism 

message: Harshil169 Please provide the exact quotes and translations used from the 2 Gujarati sources used and 1 Hindi source used on this page. Apollo1203 (talk) 02:52, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  This demand is pathetic. I can't provide translations of three articles on the Wikipedia. Just use Google translate and do so. I didn't use any type of the quote or comment from those articles. Google translation is there, use it. -- Harshil want to talk? 03:50, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Let’s focus on improving the content. We are not as well versed in Gujarati, and I’d trust your translation abilities over a Google algorithm. Can you please provide the relevant quotations from the article with their English translations as per WP:NOENG? Moksha88 (talk) 01:07, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't use any quotation from non-English source. Don't create dispute of each topic by topic after. First resolve one thing. Don't attack from four sides.-- Harshil want to talk? 04:28, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

text:   The original source is in Gujarati and/or Hindi, therefore, it was taken from non-English source. It would be helpful to see which quote is the basis of the claim you are making from the articles of another language. Also, there are many pending requests and comments on the page that have still not been addressed. Apollo1203 (talk) 04:34, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request Exact Quotes - Gujarati and Hindi 

message: In verifying this statement, “Swaminarayan was also criticized by his contemporaries because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world by being a Sannyasi,” I found this statement in Raymond Williams’s An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism, “'Followers believe that he was unaffected by any of these emotions or feelings. Swaminarayan was criticized because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world” (81). I notice you are now referencing a Gujarati source. Can you please provide us an English translation of the reference and an explanation for why you changed the reference?
Also, this excerpt is taken out of context from William's book [WP:NPOV]. This section is part of a larger discussion of Swaminarayan’s teachings where God assumes a human body and human characteristics to accept the devotion of his followers. This is again addressed in this book, “There are many stories in which he received gifts or ate very fine food, not because he wanted them, but to satisfy the devotional needs of his followers” (19). Moksha88 (talk) 01:38, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I forgot to ping you on this question yesterday. Please respond at your convenience. Thank you. Moksha88 (talk) 02:47, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I now see this statement is attributed to a third reference, Kirin Narayan’s book. As I mentioned before, this quote is taken verbatim from Raymond Williams’s book and doesn’t reflect the actual argument. Can you explain why you cited Kirin Narayan’s text, including the relevant excerpts which corroborate this detail? I have therefore corrected the reference and edited this statement to reflect WP:NPOV and invite  to evaluate. Moksha88 (talk) 03:53, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see you reverted my edits without clarifying why you agreed with using the original reference you cited. What Raymond Williams refers to on page 81 is more fully explained on page 19, so I'm curious to know why you removed the material I had initially incorporated when excluding it certainly constitutes WP:UNDUE and therefore a violation of WP:NPOV.  Moksha88 (talk) 05:07, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Refer that statement in good article of Swaminarayan. It can be found here. There's no such need to include the justification from all side. As you can see, there're only 2 lines reagarding this. One is based on criticism and one is on justification. Same I did here. -- Harshil want to talk? 05:12, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you for showing me this example. I think 'claimed' is not a neutral word as per WP:NPOV, "There are no forbidden words or expressions on Wikipedia, but certain expressions should be used with care, because they may introduce bias. For example, the word claim, as in "Jim claimed he paid for the sandwich", could imply a lack of credibility. Using this or other expressions of doubt may make an article appear to promote one position over another. Try to state the facts more simply without using such loaded words; for example, "Jim said that he paid for the sandwich"." I wonder if we can use 'responded' or 'explained' here. Moksha88 (talk) 05:22, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

text:  That’s wrong example because it’s more like presenting fact. If Jim had no money and he ate sandwich for free then it should be taken. Now differentiate between two:- “Jim had no money but he ate sandwich and said that it’s his fundamental right.” and “Jim had no money but he ate sandwich but he claimed that it’s his fundamental right.” Now, first sentence represents simple fact while second is neutral as people can agree with it or disagree as per their ideology. That’s how word ‘claimed’ is used here. Sahajananda claimed something which was not acceptable in contemporary society but it can ve acceptable to their followers. Waiting for comments of  for this issue. — Harshil want to talk? 05:58, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with @Harshil169:’s logic. I agree with  Moksha88 and their citation of Wikipedia guidelines regarding and NPOV which they have actually quoted, and thus I feel that the word respond is more neutral in such situations.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sacredsea (talk • contribs) 18:50, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

text: Thank you for the comments. I will review the pages you suggested and draft a response in my sandbox, like Sacredsea, so others may review. Moksha88 (talk) 02:58, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's my sandbox version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Moksha88/sandbox. I didn't get a chance to review the pages suggested by Ms Sarah Welch above so this draft is still preliminary. Moksha88 (talk) 15:13, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Sacredsea and Harshil169: please read Moksha88's draft and the sources cited, then add/revise/improve it. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:03, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I have read Williams’ chapter on this point, and the point about criticism of accepting gifts seems like a minor point, since he hasn’t made it explicit who is criticizing him, how wide-spread the criticism was, or anything of the sort. It is almost like an aside. Moreover, Williams’ explanation of Swaminarayan’s “response” to this criticism cites a paragraph in the Vachanamrut, which I also read. But it is clear that Williams has taken this paragraph completely out of context – the quote he cites is not a response to any criticism. So, my sense is that although Williams is a reliable source, including this point in the article may be giving it undue weight, as I could not find this criticism in other scholarly sources. But, still, if all the editors feel it should be included, I edited the sandbox text to provide the reader with more context using what Williams explains in his book immediately prior to the mention of criticism. That is, one has to explain why Swaminarayan is getting gifts to understand what the criticism actually is, otherwise the reader is left to make their own (likely erroneous) assumptions.Sacredsea (talk) 20:16, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference #6 [WP:NPOV] 

message: In reviewing Pramukh Swami Maharaj’s article history, these allegations were posted and subsequently removed in October 2014 on the basis of WP:NOTGOSSIP. I therefore think these allegations should be excluded based on WP:NOTSCANDAL which  referenced above in clarifying the exclusion of the Morari Bapu claims. Moksha88 (talk) 05:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Can you focus on one issue at one moment? It's difficult for any person to address four issues at same time. -- Harshil want to talk? 05:05, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree. I can't see how these allegations meet the four criteria of notability stated in WP:EVENTCRITERIA, especially since it looks like the only articles referenced are from 2013 when these allegations arose. I vote to remove.Apollo1203 (talk) 05:57, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

text: @Harshil169 please stop reverting edits that are being made in good faith in maintaining NPOV for a criticism article. As you said, let's try to reach consensus. There is no reason for edit warring.  Moksha88 (talk) 18:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

text: @Harshil169 please stop reverting edits that are being made in good faith in maintaining NPOV for a criticism article. As you said, let's try to reach consensus. There is no reason for edit warring.  Moksha88 (talk) 18:03, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  My apologies , reading the prior history here as well as the reasons for removal I believe it's fully in line with the policies, specifically WP:BLP. Please go see the talk page on the Pramukh Swami Maharaj wiki page where this was previously discussed and removed. ThaNDNman224 (talk) 18:07, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that on the basis of WP:NOTGOSSIP and WP:EVENTCRITERIA, this should be removed.Sacredsea (talk) 19:13, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  @ThaNDNman224 no worries. I just don't want this editing process to become uncivil.  is making a lot of reverts, and I don't want him to feel frustrated. Moksha88 (talk) 02:10, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  To that effect, consensus has been reached. I will remove the final reference to these allegations. Thank you all for commenting. Moksha88 (talk) 04:26, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Adding my two cents - I agree that the verbiage related to the allegations should be removed on the basis of WP:NOTGOSSIP and WP:EVENTCRITERIA. Actionjackson09 (talk) 14:05, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sexual abuse allegations 

message: I think the criticism regarding 'grandiose temples' is not notable enough to merit a place in this article. It is not validated as a criticism just because 'some Hindus' hold this belief/opinion (WP:NOTOPINION) as Sarah Welch has pointed out earlier. Apollo1203 (talk) 03:28, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agree with Apollo here. Doesn't feel like this is a critcisim worth including in the article.Actionjackson09 (talk) 16:00, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: In reviewing the earlier version of this page, it also seemed like this statement was gossip alongside the remarks by Morari Bapu and sexual abuse allegations. I feel there's enough consensus to remove this statement.Moksha88 (talk) 22:07, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern Criticism - Grandiose Temples 

message: *Krishna's Flute: Do you have a proposed specific draft language? Criticism with context that aids the understanding of a subject/topic, is generally welcome. Criticism without context that merely aims to shock/demean/bash/vent/spread misinformation about a community/topic/subject isn't. For example, a draft along the lines of the following would aid the discussion and further collaboration: "The Swaminarayan tradition was criticized by Dayanand Saraswati – the founder of Arya Samaj who interpreted Hinduism to be a monotheistic religion, who was against all idols, who sought to return Hinduism to what he believed to be its rightful Vedic foundations.[1] According to Dayanand Saraswati, the Swaminarayan tradition "....".[2][3] According to (Indologist/community leader) [...], Dayanand Saraswati's views about Swaminarayan are [correct/incorrect] because [...].[4] etc etc Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 09:25, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I think she has not. But we have one version in history which was proposed by me in above thread and currently lies in sandbox of Apollo1203. Kindly, share your opinion whether it fails encyclopaedic standard or not.-- Harshil want to talk? 13:24, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: That is unencyclopedic and undue. It lacks the necessary context (i.e. Dayanand Saraswati – the founder of Arya Samaj who interpreted Hinduism to be a monotheistic religion, who was against all idols, who sought to return Hinduism to what he believed to be its rightful Vedic foundations. See C. Mackenzie Brown, E. Allen Richardson, Arvind Rajagopala, etc). Avoid quote farms. Please consider the template suggested above. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:00, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion