Talk:St John's College, Cambridge

message: The article originally said that ten Nobel prize winners attended John's.... I can only find information and references about eight (as is claimed by the John's College homepage). I've altered this until someone can prove the original figure correct.
--CharlesRCD
* I can't actually find any mention on any pages in www.joh.cam.ac.uk - can you provide a link? That could then be a reference within the article in case anyone queried it. The Stumo (talk) 16:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Nobel Prizes?

message: In some ways this is very pernickety but its probably just worth discussing. St. John's College should technically be written as St John's College (i.e. without the full stop). 
I think the grammar convention is that a word that is abbreviated but keeps its final letter, as in Saint -> St or Doctor -> Dr don't have a full stop but words which lose their final letter do, as in approximate -> approx. . Also 'St John's College' is actually the name of the college, it's at the top of the official webpage.
I was reading Isaac Newton/The first 15 years as Lucasian professor and St John's College is mentioned and is in red as the page doesn't exist. My question is, what's the best way to resolve this? Should I copy the contents of the St. John's entry to the St John's entry and then redirect the second to the first?
This also applies to the other Cambridge colleges named after saints, St Catharine's and St Edmund's.
(The above reads a little bit like I'm staking a claim to the above and that I must be the person who changes this. It's not supposed to read like that, if you think it should be changed its probably best to just change it rather than try and explain to me what I should do.)
Ams80 01:41 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)
:This is correct in Commonwealth English (but in case anyone argues, note that the rules are different in American English) Rnt20 19:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A member of the British royal family noted that the bridge looked like the Bridge of Sighs in Venice, and the name was then taken for the bridge in Cambridge Rnt20 19:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: St. vs St

message: I've asked the College for an authoritative translation of "souvent me souvient" (which doesn't look like 'remember me often' to me). roundhouse 00:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Souvient" is the third-person plural conjugation of "souvenir", which means "to remember". The "me" before it is an object pronoun, meaning "remember me". And "souvent" means "often". So it seems fine to me. ugen64 01:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not convinced, given these facts, that we get "remember me often" (which seems an odd motto). The College have replied, authoritatively, that google yields both meanings, arising no doubt from the 2 versions which alternate on this page. roundhouse 08:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Christ's College, Cambridge (same motto) gives 'I often remember'. This seems to me to be much more likely to be correct. roundhouse 10:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The current master of Christ's College, Prof Malcom Bowie (French Literature) states confidently that the motto should be translated as "I often remember" and not "Remember me often". "Often it is remembered unto me" is the literal translation apparently, which renders better as "I often remember", or "Often I remember". Since this is mediaeval french, a modern french interpretation on the words is certainly not appropriate. LeBofSportif 14:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done. roundhouse 15:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

text:  I believe the "I often remember" is best understood in the context of Henry IV's motto, "Remember me" or "Forget me not". Henry IV had a motto of something like "souvereign" which some people interpret to just mean sovereign, but this is unsatisfactory. More likely, it is an old french word for the flower "Forget me not" which Henry IV had on his crest I think. I am doing this from memory, but I can check book sources if there is still dispute over the motto. LeBofSportif 17:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

text:  Giving a talk on the history of the College, Professor Boyd (an authority on these matters) stated that the motto meant 'I often remember'. This matches the interpretation used in Christ's College.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.182.232 (talk) 22:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

text:  A variant that I heard was that it was a pun - both the meanings 'Remember me often' and 'I often remember' should be read from it. This was from a modern French speaker, so I cannot be certain of the accuracy. The Stumo (talk) 11:06, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: College Motto

message: Any particular reason for "Saint" being in parentheses? Fisher was canonised in 1935 with Saint Thomas More as one of the English martyrs; it's normal practice to use brackets. I've removed them - please leave a note here if you disagree. Squeezeweasel 20:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fisher

message: Since a cursory google search turned up nothing, can anyone provide more information on the "red boy" cocktail?  are these equal proportions?  a more detailed recipe would be great...  72.209.70.84 22:32, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cocktail

message: Does someone have a citation for the fixed assets valuation? 500 billion seems like rather a lot... 86.14.227.200 (talk) 20:33, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fixed assets valuation

message: I've reclassified this as a C-Class article. I think the major thing that's standing in the way of it being B-Class is a lack of references, particularly within the History section. Mrh30 (talk) 10:40, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Classification 

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with File:Sir Nevill Francis Mott.jpg

message: The reference for the assertion that Time magazine rated St Johns May Ball as the 7th best party in the World appears to be a student newspaper from 2007, which itself cites no sources. Is this a verifiable claim?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.213.35 (talk) 17:15, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: May Ball

message: The Info-box translates the college motto as "I often remember". I'm not an expert at Old French, but surely "Souvent me Souvient" means "They often remember me"? Unless anyone objects, I'll change it. Hallucegenia (talk) 09:25, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Discussed above. - David Biddulph (talk) 11:53, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Motto 

message: Wouldn't it be better if the article actually talked about what is being taught in this "college" rather than the typical British self-centered BS?! Is it just another club where wealthy British aristocrats and noblemen sit on leather chairs drinking tea and reading newspaper while making racist remark regarding the rest of the world or is it a business school?! engineering school?! law? economics? or is it a medical school? graduate? undergraduate? or may be it is a research institution?! yeah right 175.139.16.64 (talk) 02:14, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Courses / Programs 

message: I removed a number of External Links from the page. One (a link to a Gutenberg copy of a book) I moved to "Further Reading". The others (to the JCR, SBR and Boat Club's websites) seemed to me not to fall within any of the items under "What can normally be linked" or "Links to be considered" in WP:EL, so I removed them. To my mind, these sites are in no way necessary to an encyclopaedic understanding, and including them is effectively promotional. , you have restored them. Please explain why, under the principles of WP:EL, these belong in the article. --ColinFine (talk) 17:18, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: , the links to the JCR, SBR, and Boat Club fall under WP:ELOFFICIAL, as official websites of their respective bodies which are mentioned in the St John's College, Cambridge#Student life section. Educational institutions, particularly colleges in collegiate universities, are relatively unique in having multiple (sub-)organisations associated with them. While under WP:ELMINOFFICIAL only one link should usually be provided there is an exception if: the subject of the article has more than one official website, then more than one link may be appropriate, under a very few limited circumstances. One of the examples given is if a politician has a government website, a political party website, and a campaign website; these would all be considered appropriate. This appears to be an analogous situation given the status of the JCR etc... to St John's. It is also probably worth mentioning that nearly every college page for: Cambridge, Durham, Oxford, and York, contain links to JCRs, MCRs etc... Furthermore the same can be said of most universities, the University of Cambridge page for example has links to the student union and the graduate union. Essentially it is an established convention to have these links. If you feel that this answer is not satisfactory then I would suggest rather than making St John's the exception that you start a broader discussion on the issue at maybe Wikipedia talk: External links, Wikipedia talk:College and university article guidelines, or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Universities (and post a message about the discussion on the other two talk pages). Ebonelm (talk) 20:40, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. I can sort of see it about the JCR and SBR (particularly since these have been given parameters in the infobox). But the Boat Club? Why that and not fifty other college societies? --ColinFine (talk) 10:23, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on St John's College, Cambridge. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060925004705/http://www.queens.cam.ac.uk/default.asp?MIS=864 to http://www.queens.cam.ac.uk/default.asp?MIS=864
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110927004418/http://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/chapel_and_choir/choir/ to http://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/chapel_and_choir/choir/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110927004437/http://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/admissions/graduate_admissions/finances/scholarships/ to http://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/admissions/graduate_admissions/finances/scholarships/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110927004718/http://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/chapel_and_choir/bicentenary_2007 to http://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/chapel_and_choir/bicentenary_2007/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110606210533/http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/news/press/dpp/2007021501 to http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/news/press/dpp/2007021501
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that :File:St John's College Chapel, Cambridge, UK - Diliff.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on July 28, 2016. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2016-07-28. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:49, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:File:St John's College Chapel, Cambridge, UK - Diliff.jpg]] to appear as POTD soon 

message: I have removed the sentence about the five male undergraduates banned from attending the SJC May Ball in June 2016. The editor adding the content first added it prominently to the history section and then, copy-pasting sensationalist headlines, prominently to the student life section. A more careful summary by me of the 2016 update in the Telegraph was reverted by this editor. The headlines were sensationalist and undue, and no context was provided. Could the editor explain why he thinks this content had any value and why he thinks incidents like this deserve to be mentioned? The story came out in a student newspaper "The Tab" and was picked up by the Telegraph (and the Mirror) but not the Cambridge News. If there was more general context to this topic, perhaps it would merit being mentioned; at present that does not seem to be the case. Mathsci (talk) 22:12, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The Tab also runs stories like this. The 2016 Telegraph article links to an article about a named individual from Queens College, Oxford that could not be reported on wikipedia, because it would be an obvious BLP violation. The banning of the Wyvern's "jelly party" by the Master and Fellows of Magdalene College is not mentioned on wikipedia. It has been reported in the press. Mathsci (talk) 23:01, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: What matters is the most reliable source to publish the incident. In this case an internationally reliable paper, the Telegraph, published the story not just once, but furthermore a followup. This makes the story fulfil the notability and reliability criterion and should be included. In fact, this text is the only referenced text in the entire section of five paragraphs, and so following WP:RS we should first turn our attention to other text in this section. For example, another paragraph in this section describes how the College chef (named in violation of WP:BLP) oversees the intercollegiate Stewards' Cup. I think that we should first remove such unsourced information about the out-of-work activities of the College chef, rather than the only referenced text in the entire section that was twice featured in the international press. There are many other sections of text in the same section that are unsourced, trivial, and read like a College prospectus.77LmTA6knQ6 (talk) 17:46, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The (unnamed) drinking society is banned by the college and prohibited from having meetings on university or college property. The present content concerns five individuals and a student sub-culture which has very little to do with the functioning of St John's College. The source of this particular story is The Tab as indicated in the subsequent local and national newspaper reports. (There was also a report in the Daily News of India, but it was riddled with inaccuracies.) I still don't think this story merits being included in the article on St John's College, which concerns permanent aspects of the college.  Incidents involving drunken or unruly students are not a recent phenomenon; they do not seem to have found their way into other wikipedia articles on academic institutions. In addition, apart from the link lad culture, I can find no information on wikipedia about drinking societies or "swap" parties. As your account seems to have been created with the main purpose of adding content about this very specialised topic, are you intending to write a wikipedia article on "student drinking societies" and "swap parties"? Mathsci (talk) 09:06, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not understand your general comments. The other information in the article is publicly available and easy to verify on the college's website, in their handbook/prospectus or the college magazine. It gives an anodyne, neutral and informative description of the college and was possibly edited by students. Mathsci (talk) 09:53, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The allegation made by talk that my account is a main purpose created for editing articles solely about drinking societies is not true. In fact out of all my edits only 5% relate to drinking societies, and those are only for this sentence in the St Johns article. I would therefore suggest that User talk:Mathsci withdraw this allegation and apologize for making it. Putting forward ad hominem allegations with no evidence detracts from any credibility that User talk:Mathsci has for taking part in this discussion, that I would also suggest that User talk:Mathsci now withdraws from.77LmTA6knQ6 (talk) 11:06, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Your editing conforms to WP:SPA fairly closely. Your very first edit was problematic. Mathsci (talk) 00:50, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: (User talk:Mathsci) is making serious accusations and needs to provide definitive evidence of WP:SPA. Referring to a edit of (User talk:77LmTA6knQ6) out of hundreds does not comprise WP:SPA . Please refer to WP:SPA and either provide proof or return to a discussion about this current page on the basis of facts.77LmTA6knQ6 (talk) 10:58, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: As no evidence of WP:SPA is forthcoming and (User talk:Mathsci) has withdrawn from the discussion I have reverted the text to the agreed version.77LmTA6knQ6 (talk) 09:27, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Evidently you are an individual with an axe to grind; a WP:POINT to make, which is why in your very first edit you inserted exactly the same scare quotes in the most prominent place you could find in the article. Instead of adding balanced content, you have preferred to revert to the shrill language of gutter journalism, with scare quotes and no context at all. Indeed it seems that any attempt to provide context—the nature of these university social events, their banning by colleges, their occurrence far from the established colleges—is not to your liking. You prefer to add WP:UNDUE content to shock the reader. There are four individuals involved in this minor event (it is, even if their conduct in private and in a drunken state was poor) who have just started their third year as undergraduates. Your purpose here has been to single them out amongst undergraduates in Cambridge. Given your insistence on not representing their interests properly, I suspect that is a BLP violation. Please read the Varsity article below, written by a female Johnian who knows one of those concerned, to understand the possible problems. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 11:09, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I am grateful that (User talk:Mathsci) has dropped the accusation against (77LmTA6knQ6) of WP:SPA because it is not true, and await an apology. (User talk:Mathsci) has now accused (77LmTA6knQ6) of WP:POINT. This is a serious allegation so needs proper evidence. Examining WP:POINT it is not clear which of the examples (User talk:Mathsci) accuses (77LmTA6knQ6) of, and the evidence for that. Please would (User talk:Mathsci) make this clear with strong evidence, or withdraw the allegation and apologize for making it, so that we can return to sorting out the St Johns page.77LmTA6knQ6 (talk) 08:16, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: As no evidence of WP:POINT is forthcoming and (User talk:Mathsci) has withdrawn from the discussion I have reverted the text to the agreed version.77LmTA6knQ6 (talk) 21:57, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

text: Mathsci has previously made allegations against 77LmTA6knQ6 further up this talk page but never provided any evidence. Before we continue the discussion can we assume that Mathsci has now withdrawn these allegations? We then need to remember that what is important is WP:VNT. Following this established wikipedia policy what matters is the most reliable source to publish the incident. In this case an internationally reliable paper, the Telegraph, published the story not just once, but furthermore a followup. This makes the story fulfill the notability and reliability criterion and should be included. In fact, this text is the only referenced text in the entire section of five paragraphs, and so following WP:RS we should first turn our attention to other text in this section. Mathsci claims that "it was never a serious news story", "it does not represent in a balanced way student life in St John's Colllege", "Undergraduate misbehaviour is not new", "it has been present in all higher educational institutions since their creation in every country", "these undergraduates have probably now learnt their lesson". To avoid being WP:OR each of these needs a citation from an external source please, and even more reliable than the Telegraph, otherwise they cannot be considered as valid points. Please refer to WP:SOURCES as to what constitutes a valid source. WP:BLP is not an issue here because the article does not mention the names of the individuals involved, so conforms with WP:BIO1E. 77LmTA6knQ6 (talk) 08:46, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Your editing on wikipedia at the moment consists of (a) edit warring (b) WP:IDHT (stubborn refusal to recognise a student newspaper story which has become irrelevant) and (c) WP:SPA, this unencyclopedic content seems now to be your main interest. In those circumstances, isn't your account just a classic example of WP:NOTHERE? Certainly, even without future reversions, your account could be blocked since all you do is try to edit war this undue material into an otherwise anodyne and neutral article. That indicates your own WP:POV. I do think BLP is an issue, because real life identities could easily leak out at any stage. You have no idea about that and you obviously don't care. Mathsci (talk) 10:56, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Please would Mathsci provide evidence of 77LmTA6knQ6 edit warring. This is a serious allegation so needs proper evidence. Previous allegations against 77LmTA6knQ6 made by Mathsci have never been followed by evidence and withdrawn, and in fact in August 2016 Mathsci had an arbcom judgement against them for "belittling other editors with different skills". Please would Mathsci provide hard evidence for each allegation or withdraw them so that editors can return to focus on the page at hand.77LmTA6knQ6 (talk) 23:47, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It's obvious from looking at your contributions or the edit history of this page: they make it clear that you have been edit warring and are essentially a single purpose account. Your edits could be reviewed at WP:AN3 if that's what you want. Mathsci (talk) 02:09, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: As discussed on 15 October 2016 there is no evidence that 77LmTA6knQ6  is a single user account. Mathsci needs to present evidence or should move on with the editing of this page. Regarding the page, the remaining issue brought up by Mathsci is WP:BLP, and whether the names of the people involved will be included in the article. According to WP:BIO1E because the identities of the individuals is not mentioned there is no problem, so we only need to return to consider WP:BLP if the names of those involved are included in the article in the future by an editor. If there are any other objections to the paragraph under discussion please raise them now.77LmTA6knQ6 (talk) 10:30, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

text: I agree that it would be sensible to focus here solely on the paragraph at hand. Right now no objections to the paragraph have been raised that have been mutually agreed by the Editors so the consensus is to retain the paragraph as it was.77LmTA6knQ6 (talk) 18:05, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  May Ball bans 

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thread_title:  External links modified