Talk:International Communist League (Fourth Internationalist)

message: I put back some information which the person who removed it claimed was slander (even though in written form it would actually be "libel"). I know these claims to be true and the Sparts' reputation is pretty well known on the Left.
SonofRage 04:00, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: There is too much in this article which is the retailing of claim and counterclaim - much of which seems to originate from disaffected members of the Sparts (the IBT). If people are interested they can visit websites, buy press etc. The serious discussion of the 'cult' claim is just too ridiculous.--Jack Upland 03:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  . 

message: This section of the article seems very POV. It's good to mark it with  but why not just cut it if we get no references? --Duncan 20:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "About" ten years ago? An unsigned comment?  A "fact"???--Jack Upland (talk) 09:49, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Youth Group of the ICL  

message: I've heard consistent allegations that the Sparts were CIA funded. This was as a result of their idiosyncratic postitions on many left issues eg MIGs for Managua which was widely seen as been designed to undermine the work of the Nicaragua Solidarity Campaign position that the Sandinistas were independent revolutionaries seeking national self-determination.  There was also the fact that most of those (at least in Ireland in the 80s) selling the paper seem to have been Americans.  Probably prejudice but does anyone have evidence to support or shed other light on this?
--Gramscis cousin 21:27, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never heard this story, in more than 20 years. They certainly do have funds, but nothing out of the ordinary, of the type we have seen with the Healy movement. The Spart's lines doesn't really reflect that of the CIA; that's really the role of the labour aristocracy. Nor do they act as disruptors and provocatuers of the left today, in the way they did in the later 70ss and early 80s. The dispute over MIGs is a little more complex: the Sandinistas bought MIGs against the wished of the USSR. Under Soviet pressure, the Cubas impounded those planes to prevent the FSLN deepending the military conflict. In this instance, the NSC was covering up for Stalinism, and undermining the real wishes of the FSLN. Most Americans are not agents of the CIA, so the fact that many Sparts are from the US really doesn't mean anything.--Duncan 10:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I doubt you can find a reference to support that. If the CIA really wanted to undermine the Sandinists, they could have funded people who were much harsher critics - people who were more Stalinophobic. But they would not have sent in CIA operatives to staff these groups, any more than they staffed the British Labour party in the 1960s. They fund people who really believe in whatever the say. --Duncan (talk) 22:49, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that's total bullshit, in fact to their credit they took the FSP to task for circulating anti-communist lies about the Sandanistas during that period.
I agree Duncan I'm just observing that this was a view that was current in the place and period mentioned.  I never said I believed it myself I just felt it was interesting and was curious as to whether anyone else had heard it.  As I said it was probably just "slagging" and has no substance. --Gramscis cousin (talk) 12:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Yes, the Spartacist's strongest section is in America.  Yes, they irritate many of their opponents.  Does that make them CIA???--Jack Upland (talk) 09:52, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  CIA funded 

message: Proof do you have that Jim Robertson "purged" people from the ICL(FI) or that he holds undisputed power? What group has put forward these arguments?
Leon Trotsky 15:07 24 February 2007
Are you making the point that the SL purched these people, rather than Robertson alone? --Duncan 12:28, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What Proof 

message: Why is an article on www.marxist.com(IMT) a reference  for the Sparts?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.94.28.193 (talk) 03:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: references

message: I strongly feel this page should be renamed/re-oriented. I do not know if this has been discussed before but this page is really about the Spartacist League of the United States, with only a few tibits about the other sections of this "International". I think it would be more accurate to split this page into one for the original Spartacist League in the US and one for the ICL(FI), and then create pages for the other spartacist leagues in other countries. I do not wish to do this "unilaterally" however and would like the input of others who have participated on the articles discussion page to respond on the discussion page before I take this step.--Dudeman5685 (talk) 18:14, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There is not much to say about the leagues in other countries. None of them are notable enough to justify separate entries. Rather than produce a series of stubs, we should keep it as one article. --Duncan (talk) 00:06, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Then I suggest a smaller page dealing with the international Spartacist tendency / ICL, and another one on the Spartacist League proper. As it is this is basically a page about the US org, and not much on the other groups, or the "international" itself.--Dudeman5685 (talk) 23:28, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: What would be a benefit of producing a stub about the ICL? Why not just name this page SL-US and then redirect ICL to a section of this article? I just don't see why we need more articles. --Duncan (talk) 14:42, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: We do already have articles on the Spartacist League (US), Spartacist League of Britain and Lega trotskista d'Italia.  This page deals with the international.  I can't see anything in it specifically about the U.S. group, other than in relation to how the international originated but, if there is anything, it should be moved to the specific article. Warofdreams talk 14:59, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

text: Check the history. Until a few days ago this was just about Spatacist League US. I moved that over to the new page on SL/US and created an entirely new history section just on the "international". I also just wrote the Italian page yesterday.--Dudeman5685 (talk) 16:10, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I missed that, thanks.  Your split makes perfect sense to me. Warofdreams talk 17:45, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggest Split