Talk:Bernard Boursicot

message: I've added the auto reference tool in and wikified all of the page's ref.
perfectblue 08:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you VERY much.  At the time I was expanding this article, I was not very adept at that.  Your aid is appreciated.Lisapollison 21:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Refs

message: I have replaced the category of LGBT people from France that was removed by an editor asserting that boursicot is not gay. In the book on the subject cited in the article and in numerous news articles, Boursicot self-identifies as either Gay or Bisexual and continues to live with the boyfriend mentioned in the book.  Considering this fact, the category is wholly appropriate and potentially of use to other editors looking to improve LGBT articles on Wikipedia.
It has been my experience that category tags relating to LGBT people are often the subject of revert wars and vandalism by editors who often assert that the category is a "labelling" or a "slander" even when the fact is widely acknowledged and not in dispute. Here it seems to be a misreading of the facts.  I will go back to the book and find specific page cites and some quotes from Boursicot on the matter.  He is unashamed of his relationships with men ,women or men posing as women.  He cooperated fully with the book and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the case.  If you can believe that the story is even more convoluted than the article dares get into.  Affairs of the heart are often complicated.Lisapollison 21:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: vandalism

message: Reading this wikipedia page on June 25th 2021, I would even add that it reads like a wikipedia-entry written from a narrow heteronormative perspective. I recommend that the page-contributors and readers refer to the following article, which seems a bit less narrowly heteronormative at least in comparison to this wikipedia page's formulations, at https://www.messynessychic.com/2019/07/04/loving-monsieur-butterfly-a-tale-of-espionage-romance-and-the-transgender-soprano/ 
Here is an example of how that article gives what reads like a more sensible account:
"Lest we tangle the details: at this point, we have a man pretending to be a woman pretending to be a man, to seduce another man who may also be gay. In later interviews, Boursicot vaguely explains that his first and only sexual encounters were brief, and with men, before changing the subject. Pei Pu meanwhile never confirmed what exactly his/her/their gender identity was – but it was likely fluid. In one 1988 interview, Pei Pu explains, “I used to fascinate both men and women. What I was and what they were didn’t matter,” and in another, says, “I never told Bernard [Boursicot] I was a woman. I only let it be understood that I could be a woman. I thought France was a democratic country. Is it important if I am a man or a woman?” The closest we can come to an intimate understanding of Pei Pu, says playwright David Henry Hwang, was that “he was, above all, a performer”. "
Compare this to the language in the Wikipedia page... The Wikipedia contributors here seem to be, like the public media in this affair, obsessed with collapsing gender and biological sex into one and the same thing, while also taking for granted the racial white normativity of their gender/sex constructions. Maybe, maybe, the wikipedia contributors could take a slightly less naive perspective and consider that maybe, the two main protagonists in this affair were not as obsessed as you are, with equating biological sex and gender, or with fixating gender altogether,at least until the legal system violently forced them to...
I recommend also the chapter on "queer race" in Nikki Sullivan's book A Critical Introduction to Queer Theory (2003), which inlcudes a long discussion of Cronenberg's fiction film, using it to deconstruct white heteronormativity and its fantasy of Orientalism. It seems clear that this whole affair, if read with some cultural scholarship, could reveal a lot more, not only about the lives of Boursicot and Shi, but more tellingly about how the public media debates, from the official trial to this very wikipedia entry, flatten and distort such complex lives (as well as how homophobia functioned in 20th century China).
--95.90.191.166 (talk) 08:54, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heteronormative bias in this wikipedia page echoing the bias in public reception of the case

message: "Shi insisted in later years that he never claimed to be female to Boursicot. It was a misunderstanding that Shi simply allowed to stand without correction." -- "In 1965, Shi claimed to be pregnant"
I should think claiming to be pregnant sort of implies a claim to be female. Muad 12:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry I didn't notice this comment from almost a year ago.  Yes, Shi Pei-Pu has said many things about his/her affair with Boursicot and the degree too which  he/she participated in the honeypot scheme at the behest of  the Chinese government. A lot of the conflict comes from comparing what Shi stated at his/her trial in France and then what Shi stated upon repatriation. Joyce Wadler's book on the affair entitled Liaison is the best source to begin with if you want to get an idea of the shifting realities manifested in their relationship.  I've read the book several times and each time I come away with a slightly different judgement about how much Boursicot could have known.  In helping to edit the article, I have tried to let each participant speak for themselves, using their own words as I could find citable references. Any reader looking for more info would be well advised to pick up a used copy of Wadler's book.  She had Boursicot's full cooperation and access to most of the documents and other players in the case.  There's a lot more that could be done with this article and I welcome any help you may care to offer.LiPollis (talk) 22:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Shi is a spy, would it fair to say that he is an unreliable narrator? (i.e. he lies) V. Joe (talk) 21:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interesting .. 

message: This article was automatically  assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 02:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Plagiarized from another website. 173.228.198.236 (talk) 00:28, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Much of this is plagiarized