Talk:Sappho

message: Given that identification of ancient images of Sappho is a perennial subject of sturm und drang on this talkpage, I've put together some notes on what I can find out about all of the supposed ancient depictions available on Commons (plus a couple of well-known ones that we don't have illustrated!) here.  In general, it's nothing we haven't discussed before: all identifications of ancient sculpture as depicting Sappho are tenuous at best.  
Hopefully this is a useful resource.  If anyone has any further sources on the identification of any of these works (in particular some of the sculptures) do add them – all contributions greatly appreciated. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 16:53, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images redux 

message: "Whilst her importance as a poet is confirmed from the earliest times, all interpretations of her work have been coloured and influenced by discussions of her sexuality."
This seems extremely subjective and of the opinion of the author of the content and not the reality. Sappho has long been know for her poetry. Not everything is about sexuality. Spiel (talk) 03:03, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subjectiveness 

message: I am increasingly uncomfortable with this.  The first sentence is true, though it's not exactly what the cited source is saying; Richter says that no ancient sculpture has been reliably identified as depicting Sappho, not that none of the ancient sculptures of Sappho are reliable likenesses.  The second is true but I am incredibly uncomfortable with our article inferring details of Sappho's personal appearance from her poetry: aside from the fact that the speaker does not name herself as Sappho in fr.58, there's no reason to think that the poet would necessarily faithfully record her hair colour rather than e.g. use the contrast of black and white for poetic effect.  Unless we can find reliable sources making this connection I think we should steer well clear.  As for the literary papyrus, there are several sources rather better than Smyth's comments from 1900 which discuss in rather more depth why we shouldn't take that as a useful description: e.g. Marguerite Johnson, Sappho (2007); Mary Lefkowitz, The Lives of Greek Poets (2012); Jane McIntosh Snyder, "Sappho in Attic Vase-Painting" (1997).
Finally, the Alcaeus fragment is an enormous can of worms.  Whether it mentions Sappho at all is disputed: it doesn't in Voigt's edition, nor in Liberman, Alcée (1999); Neri (2021) discusses the controversy in some depth and concludes that "μελλιχόμειδε Σάπφοι" is wrong.  Even if it is right, citing the LSJ dictionary entry to support "a common poetic way" seems to be stretching the source way beyond the limits of what it actually says, and e.g. Snyder 1997 argues that it should be interpreted as meaning "O weaver of violets" rather than "violet-haired Sappho". And I can't lay my hands on a source at the moment, but I've definitely also seen it translated as "Sappho with violets in her hair".  (Meanwhile, Yatromanolakis, Sappho in the Making (2008), goes so far as to say that the ascription of the fragment to Alcaeus is uncertain and it may have been authored by Sappho!)
I've tried to rewrite this in a way that I'm happy with, but I haven't been able to come up with anything which doesn't end up as footnotes upon footnotes of hedging and clarifying.  Ultimately, I think the reason is that this doesn't really belong in the section of Sappho's life; the stories about her appearance are only relevant insofar as it tells us something about her reception.  So I've cut it out; I'm going to try to fit some discussion of how Sappho's appearance is described in the sources (the Oxyrhynchus biography is not the only relevant source here!) into the section on reception. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:07, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Appearance 

message: This article could use a bit more information about the music associated with Sappho—at the moment the only substantial information on it is hidden away in a note! ("Other musical inventions...", note n) For example, in her Grove article, the two leading scholars on Greek music doubt that she invented the Mixolydian mode (among other things), which is to be fair, a bit nonsensical anyways. Certainly there isn't a lot known about the music associated with her, but there is certainly more known than what is in the article. Would be happy to add some myself, if there is agreement from others that I should do so? (asking since this is a GA). Best – Aza24 (talk) 23:12, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Music isn't really my area – as far as I'm concerned you should just go ahead and write something if you think there's something to be said! Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 23:21, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Happy to—as I said above, the only reason I came here first was to double check since its a GA. Will get to this in a few days. Aza24 (talk) 23:37, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Haven't forgotten about this, just delayed for now. Best – Aza24 (talk) 01:21, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Music 

message: In my attempts to bring this article up to featured, I've spent much of today trying to get my head around our image licensing rules; I still have a few outstanding queries so I'm summarising everything here in the hopes of getting to the bottom of things.
image	description                                                  	artwork copyright                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                	photo copyright
     	Sappho painter's vase                                        	Ancient; definitely out of copyright                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             	Museum photo; listed as PD on website
     	Ancient marble head, possibly Sappho                         	Ancient; definitely out of copyright                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             	Uploaded to commons by photographer; released into public domain
     	"Sapho" by Charles August Mengin                             	Elizabeth Prettejohn says exhibited at the 1877 Paris Salon, so PD-US-expired due to pre-1928 publication.  Artist died 1933, and French copyright is life+70, so PD-old                                                                                                         	Public domain in US due to PD-Art
     	Brothers poem papyrus                                        	Text is ancient; definitely out of copyright                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     	Public domain in US due to PD-scan
     	Tithonos poem papyrus                                        	Text ancient; definitely out of copyright                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        	Uploaded on commons by photographer as CC-BY-SA 2.5
thumb	Florence ostrakon                                            	Text ancient; definitely out of copyright                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        	Uploaded on commons by photographer as CC-BY 3.0
     	Grenfell & Hunt in Egypt                                     	N/A                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              	PD in the UK due to PD-Old-assumed. Claimed PD-expired in US.  Source publication was 2011; earliest I have found so far is Pl.72 of Excavating in Egypt: The Egypt Exploration Society 1882-1982 (1982).  What was the pre-1928 publication?
     	Brygos painter vase                                          	Ancient; definitely out of copyright                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             	Uploaded to commons by photographer as CC-BY-SA 4.0
     	"Sappho and Alcaeus" by Lawrence Alma-Tadema                 	PD-old in UK as artist died in 1912; certainly published by 1902 here so PD-US-expired                                                                                                                                                                                           	
     	"Sappho and Erinna in a Garden at Mytilene" by Simeon Solomon	PD-old in UK as artist died in 1905. Asserts PD-US-expired for US copyright but no clues as to when it was published. Not acquired by a public collection until 1980, and I can find no evidence of earlier exhibition or other publication PD-US-expired as exhibited in 1896 ()	PD-art, which relies on US public domain status of artwork
     	Polygnotos group vase                                        	Ancient; out of copyright                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        	Uploaded to commons by photographer as CC-BY-SA 2.5
     	Mytilenean Sappho coin                                       	Ancient; out of copyright                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        	Uploaded to commons by photographer as CC-BY-SA 4.0
     	Woodcut from 1474 de mulieribus claris                       	published 1474; PD-old-expired                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   	from flickr; licensed as CC-BY 2.0 and would anyway be acceptable as PD-Art
     	"Parnassus" by Raphael                                       	Published 1511; PD-old-expired                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   	PD-Art
There are really two images that I'm concerned about: the one of Grenfell & Hunt in Egypt and the one of Sappho and Erinna in a Garden at Mytilene.  Both are claimed as public domain in the US due to pre-1928 publication, but I can't find any evidence for either.  
The Solomon painting can be swapped out if necessary for an image of Amanda Brewster Sewell's "Sappho" (exhibited Chicago 1893).  There's nothing great on Commons for Grenfell and Hunt (there's a studio portrait of Grenfell which is much less relevant to the topic, and the only photo of AS Hunt itself needs its US public domain status establishing), or for the Oxyrhynchus excavations.  There is a nice image in the Illustrated London News from 23 May 1914 showing the excavations at Oxyrhynchus; its photographer isn't listed but if it's by Grenfell or Hunt it's PD-old, and if we can't establish a photographer it's PD-UK-unknown. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 18:10, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Update: some searching has found the Solomon painting was exhibited in 1896, which makes life easier.  Still not convinced about the G&H photo Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:04, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say remove the Grenfell image entirely and instead add a quote box with an excerpt of her poetry beside the "Only approximately 650 lines of Sappho's poetry..." paragraph. Would seem beneficial to have some actual lines in the article! Quote boxes can be seen in George Bernard Shaw, for instance. Aza24 (talk) 09:13, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you are right that it would be good to have some of Sappho's poetry in there!  Unfortunately for me I have Opinions On Translations and we are limited by WP:NFC which means that we can't use any in-copyright translations where free ones exist or can be made. Fortunately for me I have found a translation that I am at least not unhappy with... Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 13:33, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Great addition! You might consider changing the subject line from "— Ezra Pound, "Ἰμέρρω"" so something like "–Sappho, translated by Pound". At the moment, it appears (in isolation) as written by Pound. Aza24 (talk) 16:12, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: "Translated" is a bit strong, even given Pound was working from Edmonds' famously optimistic restorations! But I've noted which fragment he is adapting – it's an interesting example, actually, which might get expanded on if I ever get around to writing Reception of Sappho... Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:31, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre-FAC image fixing