Talk:Motorcycle/Archive 3

message: There are several problems with the lead. Firstly, it's too long and provides too much information for a lead section. Hopefully the editing proces will solve this. Second, I'll outline some problems below:
:A motorcycle (or motorbike) is a single-track, two-wheeled vehicle powered by an engine. Styles of motorcycles vary depending on the task for which they are designed, such as long distance travel and on or off-road conditions. Motorcycles are among the least expensive and most widespread forms of motorised transport in many parts of the world.
This is actully fine as an opening paragraph and should probably stay.
:Many countries define classes of motorcycles with differing compliance codes and licensing fees for each category. Common categories include mopeds (< 50cc), small motorcycles (<125cc) and an unrestricted category. Many small motorcycles such as scooters or pocket bikes may be classed as a moped or a motorcycle depending on the jurisdiction.
This is unsourced. It may be appropriate for the lead or could be put into a section of the article. 
:The largest market for motorcycles is the Asia Pacific; where the underbone style is popular; with a 51% share of all units sold globally. Second is the United States (21%) where larger motorcycles are more popular and Europe (20%) where both larger and smaller motorcycles are popular.
This section is unsourced and inappropriate for a lead section. If properly sourced it should be included in a sub-section.
:In the United Kingdom, Ireland, Australia and New Zealand motorbike is synonymous with motorcycle. Motorcycles are also referred to as bikes in many countries.
This should be in the first paragraph. I believe originally it was until the "Worldview" edits occured. 
:Most motorcycles have a petrol engine supported by a frame and two large wheels. The rider is seated and controls the speed of the motorcycle by gears and the throttle. The rider steers the motorcycle with the handlebars or indirectly by leaning the motorcycle. A motorcycle stays upright by a combination of steering and leaning on the part of the driver that zeros the torque on the center of gravity about the points of contact with the ground due to gravity and centrifugal forces in turns.
This paragraph is just unnecessary and contributes to the top heavyness of the lead. It also contains unsourced and factually innacurate information. Motorcycles don't steer by leaning, they steer by countersteering. This has been scientifically proven and is taught by the MSF.
Let's try to tone down the rhetoric and get back to improving the article. A motorcycle/motorbike is the same no matter which country you ride it in. —Malber (talk • contribs • game) 16:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "A motorcycle/motorbike is the same no matter which country you ride it in." That's the problem - it's not true. In Australia a motorcycle is defined in the Australian Road Rules (ARR)-
"motor bike means a motor vehicle with 2 wheels, and includes: (a) a 2-wheeled motor vehicle with a sidecar attached to it that is supported by a third wheel; and (b) a motor vehicle with 3 wheels that is ridden in the same way as a motor vehicle with 2 wheels."
So trikes, sidecars/outfits, mopeds and scooters are all motorcycles. However, licencing is a State matter, so in some states any class of licence is permitted for a motorcycle of 50 ml and speed limited to <50k m/h. (Commonly referred to as mopeds). In other states all vehicles defined as motor bikes in the ARR with a power output >200W must be ridden only by persons with a valid motorcycle licence or motorcycle learners licence. All motor vehicles require registration and insurance (Third Party). This is in marked contrast to Europe. For example in the Russian Federation, anyone aged 14 years or older may ride a motorcycle of <50 ml and speed limited to >50 km/h (referred to either as а мокик or мини-роллер) with no requirement for licences, registration or insurance. M-72 08:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I had already pointed this out to him by striking that comment, where he informed me that instead I should bicker about it, and add to the argumentative tone of this page.--Budlight 14:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead section problems 

message: In the section to which I am obviously referring, it is stated that belts are *frequently* used as a final drive.  This is incorrect.  They are used *only* on Harley-Davidson cycles and HD-derived choppers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnny Wishbone (talk • contribs)  00:13, February 6, 2007
:Not so.  The BMW F650 has used one since at least 2003, and the 2006 F800 has one, too.  The Kawasaki Vulcan 900 & 2000 also use a belt, as does the Suzuki Boulevard S40. Plus, there are belt conversion kits available for many makes and models. --Evb-wiki 06:11, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And if you go to markets other than the US, you'll find that Kawasaki had a 450 belt drive in the 1980's and Honda a 250 (plus probably a lot more that I've never seen). Add to that the fact that CVT scooters use belt final drives and you'll find that H-D belt drives are a very small percentage of the belt FD market. M-72 06:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Final Drive

message: ABS brakes are available on motorcycles down to the 49cc Geely Strada RX81, which has front only ABS brakes.  ABS brakes are also available on the 250cc Honda Reflex motorcycle or motor scooter. There may be more ABS scooters, but I figured getting down to 49cc was enough. The smallest true motorcycle I know of with ABS brakes is the BMW F650. So ... either you can say that ANY size "motorcycle" can be obained with ABS brakes, or you can make a nonredundant distinction between true motorcycles and motor scooters. Jeff dean 23:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are a couple of traditional styled motorcycles that have ABS brakes (see ) but they are uncommon on any small motorcycle.--Clawed 00:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

text: ABS is starting to become a "standard" feature on sport-tourers. The BMW K1200LT has it (several more do also) as does the Yamaha FJR1300, Honda Goldwing, ST1300, and VFR, the Triumph ST, the Ducati ST, Aprilia Futura... I'm sure I've missed a bunch. Liberal Classic 06:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What has ABS brakes?

message: I've archived about half of this talk page. I tried to select discussions older than 2 months. Basically, everything before "Electric motorcycles or not?" has been archived. Some of the topics did have recent replies, but they were replies to comments made more than two months ago. If you feel that a discussion is still active, please retrieve it from the archive page and re-insert it on this page. —Malber (talk • contribs • game) 19:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Archived discussion

message: I have removed the following unsourced statement:
"However, in the Peoples Republic of China, motorcycle use is is being severely restricted by bans and refusals of re-registration."
This unsourced statement seems to be untrue. See "China's Motorcycle Market to Grow Steadily," People's Daily - Business (August 10, 2001) & China Scooter & Motorcycle. --Evb-wiki 15:11, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was wrong for me to delete the first addition of this as I found the claim so outrageous. The news article Evb-wiki references above is from 2001 and is outdated. From the 1st of January 2007 the Guangzhou municipal government banned motorcycles in urban areas of Guangzhou and paid some money to previous owners and tried to find new jobs to old motorcycle taxi riders. This is not worth a mention in the lead of the article but could be mentioned later on especially if this could spread to other Chinese cities.--Clawed 21:50, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some basic reading for the un-informed    Bans and restrictions are widespread and spreading fast. M-72 00:04, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmmm. I noticed that, although the articles in the second set cited suggest wide spread restrictions, Guangzhou is the only city specifically cited as having a ban.  Interesting.  Talk about making policy based on outrageously false information. Anyway, it would help if you provide sources at the time you add info to the article.  Maybe, we should start a section on governmental bias against and baseless restrictions on motorcycles. --Evb-wiki 02:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You also failed to notice this in the first article - "Motorcycles may not be operated within Beijing's Third Ring Road, a 30-mile highway that encircles the city, so Hoelter said a likely dealer location would be outside the city core." Not surprising when people choose only to see what they agree with. But as to citations, I've added a number of "citations needed" to the motorcycle article. I'll add more in the next few days. Can't let wikipaedia degenerate into an unsupported state can we? M-72 13:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There M-72 goes again!  Waratah-9 19:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: China

message: thumb|left|Placed in types of motorcycles section with no explanation why — he wanted HIS photo here?
Some of the photos in this article have no direct relevance to the adjacent text and are what I would call "vanity" photos.  Examples here were inserted in this article.
The other photos, a number of them are mine, have relevance to the adjacent text. I selected and placed my photos to illustrate textual points. 
Should we get rid of vanity photos that are not relevant to adjacent text? 
Jeff dean 19:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Photos that illustrate the text are important. But general photos about a subject as dynamic as the motorcycle are also important for a well documented article. Images help break up the text and aid in readability, so they don't necessarily have to be about the adjacent text, though it helps. I might suggest including in the types of motorcycle a few photos illustrating different types. In the tires section there should be some free images of different types of motorcycle tires (important I think because motorcycle tire design and use can be significantly different than other vehicles). But for the other images that might not fit into a particular section a gallery might be a good idea. Anyone interested in looking up motorcycles in an encyclopedia would probably want to see a motorcycle. Having a variety is a good idea. —Malber (talk • contribs • game) 19:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vanity photos

message: "CVTs are ideally suited to 2-wheeled vehicles because of the lack of shift shock."
Is there a better way to describe this? Neither the Transmission (mechanics) nor the Continuously variable transmission articles mention "shift shock". Is there a source to cite? -AndrewDressel 13:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I first saw it in an article on the Husqvarna 4 speed auto in the early '80's. I believe that it is an American expression for poorly performing Automatic transmissions. Check with Guzzi Convert owners or Honda Automatic owners for a better expression. It's out there, but I can't remember it. Sorry. M-72 06:44, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shift shock 

message: Would anyone object to the removal of this image? It's not really specific to motorcycles as some bikes have two stroke engines. If anyone wants to learn about those types of engines and see the animation they can go to 4 stroke engine. —Malber (talk • contribs • game) 21:54, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is a cool GIF, but I have no objection to its removal.  Jeff dean 22:38, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree. I like the gif. It helps sets the article apart from 80% of the other articles. I also agree that "[i]t's not really specific to motorcycles" and "[i]f anyone wants to learn about those types of engines and see the animation they can go to 4 stroke engine," which has a link in the text. I'd hate to see it go, but I have no compelling reason to keep it. --Evb-wiki 07:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree too but would prefer to keep rather than just drop it because it is not motorcycle specific. ww2censor 13:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While I agree that it is a cool animation, indeed it's a featured picture, another reason for removing it which I didn't state earlier is that because it is a gif, it increases the page size by the amount of data the end user needs to download. This can slow the page load for certain users with less bandwidth. It also can cause performance issues for users with slower machines. Because it causes these problems and the other content issues, I think it should be removed. BTW, it's already included in the Motorcycle engine article. —M (talk • contribs) 13:50, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Image:4-Stroke-Engine.gif ]] 

message: The "Motorcycle Museum" (?) states that "[p]rior to World War One, Indian was the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world, producing over 20,000 bikes per year." So That's an Indian!
According to PBS's History Detectives: "By 1920, . . . [Harley-Davidson] had grown into the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world." Episode 9, 2006: Harley-Davidson Motorcycle, Flemington, New Jersey (2006 Oregon Public Broadcasting).
Of course Harley itself claims: "By 1920, Harley-Davidson was the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world. Their motorcycles were sold by dealers in 67 countries. Production was 28,189 machines." HARLEY DAVIDSON at History - World War I.
--Evb-wiki 16:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Largest in the World - WWI

message: To answer Jeff Dean's question posed when reverting my edit, ABS is available on a number of bikes below 650cc. Examples from the bikes on offer in the UK at the time of writing include the Yamaha Fazer FZ6 S2, the Honda CBF600 and the Honda CBF500. I have therefore reworded the article accordingly. --Cheesy Mike 17:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Cheesy.  Are you aware of the fact that Wisconsin, U.S., is "America's Dairyland," and its residents are known far and wide as  "Cheeseheads"? Jeff dean 17:15, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My pleasure. As a frequent traveller to the US I am also aware that a large number of Americans don't realise that you can buy Cheddar Cheese that isn't made in Wisconsin and that it is named after a village in the UK. --Cheesy Mike 17:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's good cheese, also made in Wisconsin — "The state of Wisconsin produces the most Cheddar in the United States". But the world's stinkiest cheese, Limburger cheese, is only made in Belgium, Germany, and — Wisconsin :) Jeff dean 17:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ABS on bikes smaller than 650cc