Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 4

message: I've translated what's in the German article.  I'd appreciate if someone who knows more about his work could check what I've written, and if someone more experienced in the style of these articles could check that.  Gerry Lynch 16:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made a couple of very small typo corrections. You are too modest! The article is presented very professionally! It will be great if you have time for more translations. The German Wikipedia is generally ahead of us and there is a lot of good stuff there waiting to be used - for example Hans Werner Henze. - Kleinzach 19:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've also corrected a typo, and echo Kleinzach's encomium.  This might spur me on to do the article on his Taming of the Shrew, which I saw at Wexford (and have the programme for) way back when.  George Bernard Shaw thought highly of Goetz. --GuillaumeTell 00:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the Hans Werner Henze translation - really useful information. If I am not pushing my luck, another candidate (shorter this time) is Florian Leopold Gassmann. - Kleinzach 10:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Hermann Goetz]]

message: I suggest this logo for the Russian opera articles:
 This Russian Opera article is part of the Opera Project 
It can be placed at the bottom of the article. (Meladina 16:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice!  It would be good to have more of these for other countries' operas, maybe a Valkyrie or Papageno for German opera, Mephisto for French, Butterfly for Italian...  (And a more distinctive one for the Opera Project userbox rather than just the boring old Wikipedia globe.)  I'm not volunteering - I'm hopeless at graphics - but I'm sure there are more imaginative people around here. --GuillaumeTell 21:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Logo for Russian opera articles

message: I have made an infobox for opera categories (i.e. all the links point to categories not articles). Any comments? Omissions? (See below)
It shows the categories we have now, rather than an idealized schemat. - Kleinzach 23:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure the Arts and Performing arts categories are necessary in this context. Mak (talk) 00:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I put Arts and Performing arts at the top to show the line of descent, but it's not essential and we can take it out if it isn't helpful, bearing in mind that the scheme is not hierarchical anyway, but rather a list of top level categories under 'Opera'. - Kleinzach 08:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd vote for taking out Arts and Performing Arts (unless you feel they are useful for Wikipolitical purposes), as they just look rather out of place.  Overall, it looks good and professional.  The problems come when you actually click on many of the categories, and I wonder whether we could have some sort of clean-up-the-cats sub-project before launching this on the world.  To take one example:  Operas by Genre doesn't include "Dramma giocoso", although there's an article with that title.  Apparently Don Giovanni is a Melodrama (along with Un Ballo in maschera, Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria, Samson and Delilah, King Roger and other miscellaneous operas.  And Operas by nationality leads to a mixed bag of mostly rather short and not-very-good articles with some glaring omissions such as French and Czech opera. --GuillaumeTell 09:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have taken out Arts and Performing Arts (above). (Actually we can have different versions of this for different purposes - and yes, there is a Wikipolitical side to this. I have been involved in efforts to make sure Opera is not pushed down in the category structure!). One of the purposes of the box is to open up exactly the kind of comments that you have just made, and yes again, we do need a kind of clean-up-the-cats sub-project. However this is not a trivial undertaking as it would take time and may involve some long discussions. Would you be willing to take the lead on this, I wonder? - Kleinzach 10:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll give that a definite Maybe. --GuillaumeTell 00:22, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Terrific. I have started a new page called Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/Categories. It's all yours! - Kleinzach 10:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Category infobox

message: Would anyone like to have a go at this one? It is tagged "This article lacks information on the importance of the subject matter." - Kleinzach 10:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Stefan Zucker]]

message: Meladina's articles on Sergei Lemeshev and Ivan Kozlovsky are cited on the Main Page. Congratulations! - Kleinzach 18:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Opera Project articles on the Wikipedia Main Page

message: Rock opera, as far as I'm concerned, doesn't have much to do with opera as it is traditionally thought of, but in fact it's something else that is starting to pique me on this particular article. The "Contemporary Trends" section (or non - section) has been blank ever since I first saw the article (six months ago, perhaps)? Are there any plans to develop it? It is ,I suppose, a sorry reflection on the current level of good (and performed-more-than-once) operas that are currently being composed, and which are worthy of a mention on Wikipedia. Perhaps a decent idea would be to relabel it "Contemporary and Recent Trends", which would allow for a full discussion of the styles of Britten, Schoenberg, and Berg etc. The other section which is currently blank is "development of an opera audience", which can't, surely, be so hard to write about. If these two things get done (and, when I get time, I'll have a go at the latter) the article isn't quite so dreadful. Any thoughts? Best to all, Moreschi 15:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No one is working on contemporary/recent trends as far as I know so if you want to have a go at it that will be excellent. - Kleinzach 23:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Main [[Opera]] article. 

message: So far we have had relatively little duplication in opera articles and I think this is healthy. Now the Comic opera article has been rewritten to cover the same area as the articles on Opera buffa, Opéra comique, Operetta, Singspiel, Zarzuela, Género chico, Ballad opera, Musical comedy etc. What do other members think of duplicating information in articles? - Kleinzach 21:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Duplication of material in revised [[Comic opera]] article

message: The guide on the main project page suggests: "The list of roles may include the names of the cast at the premiere (or premieres)."  A general rule would be helpful.  Should all opera articles list the opening night performers (when available)?  None?  Only when the cast list is somehow interesting (what constitutes interesting?) (and if so, should the point of interest be noted in the article or the Talk so that future editors know it's there for a reason)?  These lists are readily available and I'm happy to add them en masse if they won't be considered clutter. Fireplace 03:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a noble offer! Yes, we have discussed this, and yes we would like to have them - ideally in tabular format (with role name and voice type), as for example in Il campiello. Perhaps only Handel operas, and a few others, have these lists at present. - Kleinzach 07:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When I've seen this done, it's usually pretty interesting, for a number of reasons. I think if the information is readily available it is usually important enough to be included. Mak (talk) 21:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Include singers at premieres? 

message: One more suggestion:
:new: if put into the brackets: {{ }} Singer 
Template:Singer

(meladina 17:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like it! Nice one! Mak (talk) 19:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: new: if put into the brackets: {{ }} Singer1 
Template:Singer1

(meladina 20:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Your joke is accepted. (meladina 20:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The image at the Farinelli page is nice, though Senesino may be thought to have a more typical castrato look. --GuillaumeTell 21:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: new: if put into the brackets: {{ }} Castrato 
Template:Castrato

(meladina 22:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Singers templates

message: An interesting thought flitted through my brain a while back while I was editing Purcell's The Fairy-Queen. It concerned the labelling of the voice parts. The list was in a bit of a muddle, so I standardised all the bass voice parts to baritone, as by modern standards all of these parts are comfortably within baritonal range and tessitura.
Is this the right thing to do? Should we, in cases like these, alter to modern standards or preseve the composer's original vocabulary for these parts? This mostly, I think, applies to Purcell and Blow but also to Handel occasionally as well. My own leaning would be towards a more modern interpretation, but if there are any users with a passion for early - music authenticity, then please feel free to dissent.
One final point to make is that while Purcellian soprano parts are usually within the range of a trained mezzo, often (viz The Fairy-Queen) the tessitura is too high for a modern mezzo, and thus should probably not be mucked around with. Best to all, Moreschi 13:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When I did the Handel opera roles/vocal ranges I followed Grove using alto castrato etc. I think using the original terms made sense because we were also listing the original cast of the castrato Senesino etc. - Kleinzach 14:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, but what happens when the original cast list is no longer extant? Is this true for (say) The Fairy-Queen. Fireplace? Makemi? Moreschi 15:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As always I'd recommend following the Grove expert, in this case Curtis Price who does give voice types. - Kleinzach 17:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vocal range 

message: The List of important operas (formerly the List of famous operas) is currently being re-written and re-edited as an (self-referenced) annotated list. Contributors are welcome! There is a lot of work still to be done. 
If you wish to suggest titles for inclusion or deletion we'd be grateful if you could do this on the Talk page. We (obviously) each have our own ideas about what should be on the list, but we are trying to proceed on the basis of unanimity! Best. - Kleinzach 09:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Refurbishment of select list of operas

message: Should opera articles wikilink libretto?  A large chunk of them don't, a smaller chunk do.  It initially struck me as overwikification, but the libretto article isn't bad (and could potentially be very good).  I have no strong opinions other than that there should be consistency.  Fireplace 15:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know about other people, but I imagine our typical reader may be going to to see his local opera do Tosca (or whatever), googles and gets straight to the WP article - hence we wikilink soprano, tenor, libretto, opera, Rome, verismo etc. so that he/she can access background information. Hope that helps.  - Kleinzach 17:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: At the risk of stating the obvious, consistency is one of the major problems of Wikipedia - oh for controlled vocabulary and authority control.  I'd vote for wikilinking "libretto", and will do so when I see it (unless the consensus here is to the contrary, of course!).  --GuillaumeTell 18:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikilinking [[libretto]]