Talk:Tony Blair/Archive 1

message: Q: Does he really associate himself with Brains from the Thunderbirds? I've heard he played the Thunderbirds March when he accepted the PM position? - Sparky 04:35, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Brains

message: The nicknames section. It isn't neutral. Should we not include it all, or perhaps just give it the usual npov-ing treatment?
:Yes this section (as it stands) seems a bit unworthy of the Wikipedia project. People may have legitimate criticisms of Blair, but this really looks like name calling. Also I haven't heard of half of these, and I don't think there in common usage. I changed the heading to Satirical Caricature and moved the bit about St Albans Parish there, which I think fits better. I think it's right that there should be something like this here as satire and scepticism are key part of British Politics, but could do with some editing for NPOV and maybe deleting some of the more obscure nicknames. The most perjorative one "Bliar" is one of the best known thanks to having been on many of the million+ placards at the largest political demonstration ever seen in this country (the anti war march before Iraq). Perhaps a snap of one of these placards would put the nicknames in their proper context, and demonstrate that name calling can be a legitimate part of democratic debate (e.g., in the context of demonstrations).Washington irving 16:38, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Nicknames

message: Does the opinion of the Socialist Campaign Group really deserve prominence as high as the second sentence in this article? Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 16:19, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes sorry I caught you in the middle of re-factoring. On the new opening paragraph: right now we credit Tony with winning the election because he moved the party to the right. This point has been discussed a lot on this here talk page. Yes he moved the party to the right (dumped clause 4) and yes they won the  election.. but the point that has been made before (forcefully) is that one didn't necessarily cause the other. Had John Smith not died, Labour probably would've still won in '97... the majority may have been different but not so different. In the last round of debate it was decided to steer clear of directly crediting Tony ourselves but try to quote other authorities on the matter. I agree that the article could still use some work because this hasn't been done properly... writing about a sitting leader of a country is a hard task, I reckon. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 18:47, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: I tinkered with it a bit, if only to prove I write in the article namespace sometimes, as well as being a naggard in the talk: namespace! I feel it is right to say what Blair says he's about first, and then immediately follow up with the prominent criticisms, rather than the other way round, which is what was happening before. Odd how pro then con seems more neutral than con then pro... Feel free to nag me now! Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 20:37, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Socialist Campaign Group

message: I don't like this paragraph:
<I>Elected using the reformed election rules he had helped to bring in, Blair and Brown set about changing the Labour Party, modifying its constitution away from commitments to public ownership, focusing on presenting itself as fiscally competent (after the failures of the Conservative government of that time) and "rebranding" itself as New Labour. Although it attracted much criticism for its alleged superficiality from both political opponents and traditionalists within the party, the transformation was nevertheless successful.</I>
Proposed redrafting:
Shortly after his election as Leader, Blair announced at the conclusion of his 1994 conference speech that he intended to propose a new statement of aims and values for the Labour Party to replace the set originally drawn up in 1918. This involved the deletion of Clause IV which had committed the party to 'the common ownership of the means of production', which was widely interpreted as wholescale nationalisation. A special conference of the party approved the change in March 1995.
While in opposition Blair also revised party policy so that the party would be seen as competent and modern. He used the term 'new Labour' to distinguish the party under his leadership from its past. Although it attracted much criticism for its alleged superficiality from both political opponents and traditionalists within the party, the transformation was nevertheless successful in changing public perception.
Dbiv 13:30, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Reforming the Labout Party

message: This section is biased:
<I>The Blairs have also been criticised for "exploiting" their children in public for photocalls when it suits them, yet bemoaning the media for naturally following this through. 
Blair is open about his religious faith; some have suggested he is the most devout Prime Minister since William Gladstone. He is an Anglican, but his wife and children are Roman Catholics, and he has increasingly been seen attending Mass with them. </I>
Proposed redrafting:
Blair has tried to shield his children from public view so far as possible and has twice lodged complaints about press stories concerning them. However, the fact that the family have occasionally held photocalls together has led some to accuse him of exploitation.
Blair is an Anglican of the High Church or Anglo-Catholic tendency, while his wife is Roman Catholic and his children are (according to Catholic doctrine) brought up in that faith. However, Blair has not sought to make a political issue of his faith. Some have suggested he is the most devout Prime Minister since William Gladstone.
(RC doctrine says children of 'mixed marriages' should be brought up RC)
Dbiv 13:40, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the original section was too anti-Blair. Your proposed change is better. However I think it swings slightly too far the other way. I think your version with "so far as possible" removed would be better. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 14:08, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Children and the media

message: Reverted the edit by User:Michael3 - while this may not be hard-banned User:Michael, the summary comment makes me very suspicious that it is he. If anyone desperately wants to, they can manually wikify the link to 1980s that Michael3 did. -- Arwel 23:16, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Michael

message: The otherwise very good section on Satirical caricature misunderstands what cronyism means. It has nothing to do with not listening to his party (although that might, in itself, be a valid point to make). It is a charge of promoting his friends to plum jobs. I tweaked it a little to make that clear Monk Bretton 18:40, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Satire

message: I changed the link because it linked to some weird 'Tony Blair is the anti-christ, Nostrodamus predicted it!!!!!!' nonsense. The site looks very minor and of no significance whatsoever. If someone wishes to add some more links, ones that satirise or criticise Blair, then fair enough. But they should at least be reflective of genuine criticism. Funny thing is the link I removed seemed to have been in the piece for ages. Other than that glitch this is an excellent page, well done all of you! Monk Bretton 01:26, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why I changed the external link 

message: I removed the following paragraphs. The first implies that John Smith was murdered by Blairite henchmen; the second suggests that Blair's cabinet contains a paedophile ring. Given that these are somewhat controversial allegations, some links would be nice.
:In 1994 Smith allegedly died suddenly of a heart attack. Despite a certified autopsy confirming the official cause of death, suspicions remain that his passing was not entirely natural and came at an all too opportune time for the ambitious Sedgefield MP.
:The report of another inquiry into the presence of alleged practising paedophiles in his cabinet was also suppressed prior to the illegal invasion of Iraq. The revelation was made on 19 January 2003 by a senior intelligence officer in discussions with the Sunday Herald's Home Affairs Editor, Neil Mackay. The government issued a press gagging order, which effectively removed the story from the public domain.
chocolateboy 04:14, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: As the anon tried to insert this tripe twice, I think the short note you left on his talk page was appropriate. Pcb21| Pete 07:52, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsubstantiated allegations

message: (see also Talk:Kathryn Blair)
Should we or shouldn't we report these rumours about Kathryn Blair's suicide attempt? I'm pulled in two directions - on the one hand, it's clearly rather sensitive; on the other hand, it should be possible to provide an NPOV discussion about internet rumours, and I have a strong urge to include information that seems to be subject to official censorship... Comments? Evercat 15:00, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: (William M. Connolley 15:10, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Kathryn

message: This article is a biography of Tony Blair. It is not the place to enter into complex discussions about the constitution of Iraq. To put quotes around "sovereignty" is to imply that it is sovereignty in name only and this is a POV statement; what is undisputed is that legal sovereignty is in the hands of the government of Iraq. Anyone can follow the link and learn more about the nature of that sovereignty. Dbiv 19:13, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: (William M. Connolley 19:42, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Sovereignty of Iraq

message: Directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of civilians following a culturally and militarily imperialistic strategy in Iraq.
POV is not relevant as is factually correct.
: (William M. Connolley 11:38, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  why was this removed? 

message: What is the better introductary paragraph
The Right Honourable Anthony Charles Lynton "Tony" Blair (born 6 May 1953) has served as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom since 1997, when he brought the Labour Party into power after 18 consecutive years of Conservative government.
OR- this new proposed
The Right Honourable Tony Blair M.P. (Anthony Charles Lynton Blair) (born 6 May 1953) is the current Prime Minister of the United Kingdom since 1997. He has been the Leader of the Labour Party since 1993, and Member of Parliament for Sedgefield, County Durham since 1983.
I think the current introductory paragraph is unsightly and fails to mention key data. I attemted to make a change, but it was reverted without explanation. Astrotrain 21:23, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't like overloaded introductory paragraphs. The ideal introduction for a biography should contain only the main facts which people associate with the person. IMHO too many people on wikipedia add things to the introduction rather than in the right place in the article. Is it really important to say where his constituency is in the first paragraph? Also, Blair became Leader of the Labour Party in July 1994, not 1993. Dbiv 21:55, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: Convention dictates that the first version be used. There are several problems with your proposed version: The Right Honourable shouldn't be bolded or italicised; we only use the (Full Name) format for royals; "M.P." is not a post-nominal that we normally include; and there are also several issues with the wording (along with the aforementioned factual error). ugen64 02:38, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction

message: leadership of the party in 1993 or 1994? Christopher Mahan 22:59, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: John Smith died on May 12, 1994; the special conference which elected Tony Blair as his successor was held on July 21. Dbiv 23:56, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Party

message: You know, this is a pretty good article.  WP:FAC? -- ALoan (Talk) 15:58, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Margaret Thatcher and John Major are there already (I'm slightly bemused by the latter). I've just navigated Reginald Maudling through the process (as a self-nom). Have a check of some of the debates on the FAC page for likely problems, and I'm sure some will object because they see it as honouring Tony Blair in some way. Dbiv 20:03, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: What bemuses you about John Major?  The only serious objection I can see about this article is that TB is still in office, so there will be plenty more to write as events unfold, paricularly the next general election.  OTOH, there are enough people contributing and updating (David Blunkett's resignation, for example) that it should not be a problem. -- ALoan (Talk) 21:48, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Because John Major isn't a really outstanding article. The fact that Blair is a current incumbent oughtn't to cause problems with an FAC nom. Seriously, if you think it deserves Featured article status, I will support. Dbiv 22:32, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:44, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: FAC?

message: There has been a number of reverts over the main picture of tony blair, one with him standing outside of number ten waving  , and the other of tony facing the camera 
The file : has an uncertain copyright status and may be deleted. You can comment on its removal.
May i propose that we use the one of tony facing the camera, which follows the standard in other profiles of british politicans. The one outside number ten could be added further down the article or included in a new entry on images of tony blair? Suggestions please! DaveLewis 20:14, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Ideally I would prefer neither. The waving picture is not head-on, and the other one is clearly some years old. Dbiv 16:15, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well i would prefer a more up to date one, but no-one has posted a better alternative than the old, head facing one. I was looking for comment on which one would currently be more suitable. DaveLewis 20:14, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Main picture of tony

message: Atticus section on January 16 includes following para:
:It must be where Tony Blair learnt all about spin and inflation. The prime minister’s biography in Wikipedia, the internet encyclopaedia that its users write, claims that between the ages of 13 and 15 “he worked during school holidays as a bicycle repairer in the local hardware store”. A prankster’s work, sadly.
Not any more it doesn't. Dbiv 00:53, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The Sunday Times