Talk:Amhrán na bhFiann

message: In the "Governor General" section of the article it states "In 1932, as part of his campaign to abolish the office of Governor-General, new President Éamon de Valera forbade the Army band to play "The Soldiers' Song" in McNeill's presence.[2]"
The article should clarify that de Valera became President of the Executive Council, not President of Ireland (Uachtarán na hÉireann), an office that wasn't established until the Constitution of Ireland (Bunreacht na hÉireann) in 1937. de Valera assumed the latter office on 25 June 1959.
De bhal67 (talk) 04:43, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. RashersTierney (talk) 12:36, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: President of the Executive Council is already wikilinked in the previous section; I've rejigged it. jnestorius(talk) 16:58, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  De Valera's status in 1932 

message: Oxford Dictionary of National Biography's article on Peadar Kearney (currently not behind the paywall) says "Several translations of the song were made into Irish, including by the head of the Dáil translation staff Liam O Rinn and the Celtic scholar T. F. O'Rahilly." That wording does not make clear whether O'Rahilly helped out with Ó Rinn's translation or wrote a separate one of his own. If that can be clarified it is worth adding. jnestorius(talk) 14:16, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It does make it quite clear. It's just bad grammar. The word "several", followed by "including", clearly means that what follows are two different translations. It should say, "Several translations of the song were made into Irish, including one by the head of the Dáil translation staff Liam O Rinn and another by the Celtic scholar T. F. O'Rahilly." I know an alternative interpretation is theoretically possible, but we have to assume that the common-sense one is the one intended. Besides, the cited sources (one of which – "Aistritheoir" – is not now available online) and Ó Rinn's biography on Ainm.ie all say that he was the translator – no mention of him being helped.  Scolaire (talk) 12:30, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  T. F. O'Rahilly translation 

message: I am removing the sentence about the melody being difficult to play etc. because the cited source, Nationalanthems.info, has obviously got its information from an old version of the Wikipedia article. I removed it in April 2007 as it was pure OR, and I hadn't noticed that it had crept back into the article. The second citation for the first sentence, neohumanism.org is a dead link. It's not archived at the Internet Archive, but a search of other neohumanism.org pages shows that they got their content from Wikipedia too. That only leaves Kevin Myers. Given that he begins his article "At this time of year, I usually reach for my annual national-anthem column, dust it down, put a new crease down its front, pat its bottom, and send it on its way", he seems to be ploughing a lonely furrow here; the more so when the same paper, the same week, published an article by Tim Pat Coogan giving the exact opposite point of view! BTW, thank you to 80.111.76.134 for providing the link to that. I cannot recall any public debate on the "militant", "violent", "anti-British" anthem at least since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. In fact, on closer examination, the whole "Criticisms" section seems to be simply the re-introduction of the 2007 content with a couple of not-very-well-chosen sources added. If these criticisms can only be sourced to a single, stuck-record commentator, they should be removed from the article.  Scolaire (talk) 12:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Nix the section, given the only source is from Kevin Myers. Snappy (talk) 17:58, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

text: would have done, I think. I've merged the "Criticisms" with "Political implications", which made similar points (now that the musical criticisms are gone), and separated out "Ireland's Call". jnestorius(talk) 21:00, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticisms 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The song has three verses in total, but only the choral refrain has been officially designated the national anthem.	"in total" is misleading, it suggests one or two verses are officially designated and one are two are not; in fact no verses are officially designated.
"The Soldiers' Song" was composed in 1907                                                                          	It was "A Soldier's Song" in 1907
before ever it was adopted by the Executive Council."                                                              	The full stop is after the quote mark because the source sentence does not end there. It reads in full "It was adopted by the people here before ever it was adopted by the Executive Council, and I wish heartily to approve of the Minister's proposal here to-day to compensate the authors of this Anthem."
As per copyright law, the lyrics' copyright expired in December 2012                                               	The music's copyright also expired.
intended to restore the state's copyright in the national anthem                                                   	"the anthem" elsewhere in the section, no need for "the national anthem" in this one instance
 jnestorius(talk) 16:32, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits reverted 

message: The extra verse written in 1937 was apparently published in Séamus de Burca's 1957 biography of Kearney. If it was not previously published then it remains in copyright until 2027. jnestorius(talk) 13:18, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Answering my own question, McGarry says it was published in The Irish Press on 7 August 1938, so it's out of copyright. jnestorius(talk) 20:13, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extra verse copyright  

message: Joseph E.A. Connell's article says:
:Whelan and Son first published A Soldier’s Song in 1908 and sold it at their shop at 17 Ormond Quay Upper. Bulmer Hobson published the song’s lyrics in Irish Freedom in 1912. It was published in sheet form in 1916
Most other sources, including de Burca 1957 and Sherry 1996 say Hobson's 1912 publication was the first, which leads me to doubt the 1908 publication. There is flysheet EPH A213 in the National Archives. It is undated and has the printed warning "this is the only authorised version of the words of the above Song", which suggests other versions were in circulation by the time it was printed, which is unlikely to have happened by 1908; it would hardly have been sung at all before the Irish Volunteers were founded in 1913, or at least before Fianna Éireann in 1909. OTOH maybe there was a 1908 printing of which EPH A213 is not an instance. jnestorius(talk) 11:08, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  1908 flysheet? 

message: The IPA transcription has some oddities — I don’t think anyone would pronounce buadhach (modern spelling buach) as buəɣɑːx and the apostrophe in 'S doesn’t represent a glottal stop (ʔsˠ) — but another issue is that at the time it was composed, Munster Irish was a sort of standard. There are rhymes that don’t work without Munster pronunciation and some of the lines don’t fit the music well without Munster stress, so a Munster transcription is probably a good idea. There is a standard orthography for Irish, but there is no standard pronunciation. I’ll try to add this soon. —☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 09:33, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the entire transcription is original research and should be deleted. Do any other articles on non-English songs or poems have a phonetic transcription? Those on the anthems of France, Germany, Italy, and the Netherlands don't. Perhaps the transcription is intended to assist people who want to learn to sing it but dont know Irish? If so, note that Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, textbook. jnestorius(talk) 10:19, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA transcription 

message: Sherry says:
:At the end of 1933, An Camán printed the text of Ó Rinn’s translation, with the title ‘Amhrán na bh’Fiann’, perhaps as a ceremonial close to the year. 
Ó Ceallaigh GAA Collection, Limerick City Library includes issues of An Camán from the end of 1933;* I couldn't find the anthem there. Possibilities: 
# It is there and I missed it
# It is not in the Ó Ceallaigh digitised collection but is in some hardcopy undigitised issue or page
# Sherry has the wrong date or journal
jnestorius(talk) 11:08, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: ^ direct link to An Camán 1933 issues jnestorius(talk) 20:04, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

text: I suspect the answer is #2 and the last two pages of vol.2 no.52 (30 Dec 1933) are missing from the scan. jnestorius(talk) 12:06, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: ''An Camán''