Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-02-02 Tourette Syndrome

message: The current entry, which started on 26 Jan, and became an ad hominem issue about the TSA on 28 Jan, is now in better shape, consolidated under Experimental treatments.  I continue to concur with Greg Kuperberg, however, with respect to the Marinol entry.  Neither marijuana nor Marinol are currently useful in the treatment of Tourette's, nor are they likely to become useful treatments in the near future.  Reference, What Wikipedia is not -- a soapbox.  The considerable contributions of Unsigned User can be moved to Marinol and marijuana.  Here is my suggested wording to incorporate both Greg's and my concerns over the length and relevance of the Experimental treatments section. Suggested wordingNicotine showed preliminary promise in case reports, but these effects were not reproduced in well-controlled trials several years later.    Swerdlow, NR.  Tourette Syndrome: Current Controversies and the Battlefield Landscape. Curr Neurol Neurosci Rep. 2005, 5:329-331.   Studies of nicotine derivatives (mecamylamine, inversine) also showed that they were not effective as monotherapy for the symptoms of Tourette's.Silver AA, Shytle RD, Sheehan KH, et al. Multicenter, double-blind, placebo-controlled study of mecamylamine monotherapy for Tourette's disorder.  J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 2001 Sep;40(9):1103-10.   Deep brain stimulation has been used in treating a few patients with severe Tourette's, but is regarded as an experimental and dangerous procedure that is unlikely to become widespread.Tourette Syndrome Association.  Statement: Deep Brain Stimulation and Tourette Syndrome  Accessed 26 Feb 2005.  Complementary and alternative medicine approaches, such as dietary modification, allergy testing and allergen control,  and neurofeedback, have popular appeal, but no role has been proven for any of these in the treatment of Tourette syndrome.Zinner SH. Tourette syndrome—much more than tics. Contemporary Pediatrics. Aug 2004;21(8):22-49. Part 1Part 2 Case reports found that marijuana helped reduce tics, but validation of these results requires longer, controlled studies on larger samples.Sandyk R, Awerbuch G. Marijuana and Tourette's syndrome.  J Clin Psychopharmacol. 1988 Dec;8(6):444-5. Muller-Vahl KR, Kolbe H, Dengler R.  [Gilles de la Tourette syndrome. Effect of nicotine, alcohol and marihuana on clinical symptoms]  Nervenarzt. 1997 Dec;68(12):985-9. German.   Preliminary research on tetrahydrocannabinol, the main psychoactive substance found in cannabis, in pill form (brand name Marinol®), as a treatment for Tourette's syndrome was promising, but there are concerns about the safety of Marinol, and longer, controlled studies on larger samples are needed.Muller-Vahl KR, Schneider U, Koblenz A, et al. Treatment of Tourette's syndrome with Delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC): a randomized crossover trial. Pharmacopsychiatry. 2002 Mar;35(2):57-61. Muller-Vahl KR, Schneider U, Prevedel H, et al. Delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is effective in the treatment of tics in Tourette syndrome: a 6-week randomized trial.  J Clin Psychiatry. 2003 Apr;64(4):459-65. Muller-Vahl KR, Prevedel H, Theloe K, et al. Treatment of Tourette syndrome with delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (delta 9-THC): no influence on neuropsychological performance.  Neuropsychopharmacology. 2003 Feb;28(2):384-8.  Sandy 03:28, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Quoting AnonUser from the project page:  "In fact, neither Sandy nor anybody else has provided a good reason to disagre with the concensus statement in that section!"  Anon, both Greg and I outlined our reasons, and I have outlined them here again.  I didn't respond to your repeated entries on the same topic, as it had already been answered several times.  Both Greg's and my reasoning was given, and I provided it again, above.  Wikipedia is an encyclopedia:  it is not for original research.  According to some of what you have said in this discussion, it is beginning to appear that you want Wiki to advance the cause for further research into Marinol.  It doesn't belong in a TS article because it currently has, and is not likely to have anywhere in the near future, a useful place in the treatment of Tourette's.  The size of the entry belies its lack of relevance to the Tourette entry.  Sandy 18:55, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Also, I suspect that a lot of the confusion over marijuana vs. Marinol in the article is only fallout from your original entries, where you brought in both.  In either case, neither of them are current, or likely to become, useful treatments for Tourette's, so a reason for including so much wording about them in the article needs to be established.  Sandy 18:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Regarding your statement, "because she just said that she thinks I'm emotionally involved in the "medical marijuana" issue," if you will review my exact words, you will see that I did not say that.  I said marijuana/Marinol, as you originally presented both in a combined format. Sandy 19:04, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The statement I responded to (above) was subsequently edited out by Anon.  Sandy 21:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Regarding your statment, "Many medications' names have been posted to this article, and many of these medications have their own articles in wikipedia that don't mention Tourette's Syndrome at all!"   The use of all of the other named medications is standard in TS, documented in many journal articles, and a routine part of care of Tourette's patients.  Marijuana and Marinol are not. If they were, or if they become standard or useful treatment, they would become of encyclopedic interest and note. Sandy 19:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Regarding Anon's statement on the Mediation page about expanding the entire Experimental treatments section:  there was consensus (Greg and myself) on 4 Feb to reduce the section.  Here is the statment made by Greg (who has been involved in the TS page almost since its inception), with which I concurred:  "The ... material should be moved to the Marinol page and a medical marijuana page.  The section should be reduced to a short statement that this is a proposed treatment of Tourette's syndrome, with links to the other pages.  I suppose that the whole treatment section simply dwells too much on on-going research and speculation.  It would be a better article if the discussion started with the proven treatments, and then separately and briefly listed the unproven treatments.  User:Greg Kuperberg 18:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anon deleted his entire paragraph about expanding the section, after I had already responded.    Sandy 22:05, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Experimental treatments section

message: Francis, thanks for setting up Archive2 on the Tourette syndrome talk page.  I originally set up the first archive, after waiting weeks for an admin to show up, intending to archive the older talk sections (as the talk page was becoming long and unmanageable).  I didn't use it, since I don't know if archiving talk pages is an admin function?  You may want to delete the first archive, or move archive 2 to archive 1?  Not sure how that works ... just wanted to give you the history.  Thanks for helping us out.  Sandy 13:37, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archives?

message: AnonUser, we have reviewed several times on the talk page the Wikipedia principles regarding verifiable sources, reliable sources, and what Wikipedia is and is not.  I see you've added back in the link to the TSDA (Tourette Spectrum Disorder Association) again.  Wiki is not a collection of links, and we talked about the Wiki criteria for reliable sources on the archived talk page.  Can you please explain why you continue to add the TSDA link?  Because you are in Southern Ca, other editors could interpret this as your insistence on adding a link to your own organization, to publicize it, rightly or not.  Additionally, because you've written negatively about the Tourette Syndrome Association on the Wiki TS article, your actions could be misconstrued.
TSDA was founded eight years ago in a dramatic split with the TSA over a funding problem.  It does not have national reach or advocacy:  in fact, since its founding in about 1998, it has not grown beyond its original boundaries in Southern California, and may have even lost membership over the years.  Its Board of Directors and Scientific Advisory Boards feature no persons of note as outlined in the Wikipedia Verifiable Sources I quoted to you on the old talk page.  Its website offers no new information, and the organization espouses -- in fact, defines -- a definition of Tourette's for which there is no medical consensus or acceptance.  In fact, Tourette Spectrum Disorder is their neologism, and is not defined in medicine.  Tourette's is part of the spectrum of tic disorders.
If you add a link to TSDA, we get back into the territory of creating what Wiki is not:  a collection of links, and which every website about Tourette's can be added, which is unencyclopedic.  
Again, I ask that you talk about these issues before moving forward without consensus.
I also see that you've re-added the Famous People list, which will again encourage everyone who *thinks* they may be famous in Tourette's to add their names to the list.  You also titled it in such a way that it discusses OCD, rather than Tourette's.  You also deleted my HTML comment reminding other editors that Wiki is not for original research.  Could you please explain to me which way you are trying to head with these edits ?  Thanks !  Sandy 18:50, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Today's example, 16 Feb

message: Another issue which keeps coming up is copyright.  Anon, I see that you added a picture for GTS, which was a much-needed addition.  Thank you for doing that.  But, you mentioned that you weren't sure about the copyright on old pictures.  Neither am I, which is why I hadn't yet added a picture (I was waiting for guidance from an experienced editor, as to how one determines whether old pictures are in the public domain).  My greater concern is that you took the picture from a website/webmaster who does not respect copyright, and has multiple copyright violations on that website and throughout the internet.  The particular picture that you added has an identifying stamp in one corner, so on the chance that it is copyrighted, that could be detected.  I just thought you might want to check on the picture issue, and be more aware of the problems with that source, in terms of not only copyright, but also reliability and verifiable sources (as he signs his webpage with "PhD" but, according to his own statements, does not hold a PhD from any valid accrediting organization in any field).  I encourage you to focus on reliable sources and verifiable information. Sandy 20:20, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyright

message: Regarding Anon's statement:  "Sandy is hypocritical when she gets on her soapbox about how I'm violating wiki rules! Yet she had edited my stuff and moved it out of context on the talk page. She also tried to simply erase the entire section on Marinol, until a sysop reverted the page back!"  I have not used the words that "you are violating Wiki rules."  I have asked for clarification about how Wiki works and how we might work towards consensus, and better understanding of the pillars and principles of Wikipedia.  When you moved duplicate talk entries to the top of the talk page (an entry that was made four times), I moved it back to the bottom to preserve the chronological order that existed on the talk page.  I don't recall a sysop reverting any of my entries, except one where I was moving a paragraph to another section, and had failed to include an edit summary, so s/he thought I was deleting an entire portion.  Sandy 21:54, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anon changed the statement quoted (above) after I had responded.  Sandy 22:03, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Personal attacks

message: Anon, I'm wondering (since we're both fairly new to Wiki), if you have learned to use the Preview button?  Since you started your response on the Mediation page 3 1/2 hours ago, you've edited it now 35 times.  The changes you have made invalidate all of my responses above.  This is the same tangle we get into when editing the Tourette syndrome entry.  I have learned to wait, recognizing that when you start editing, you may take multiple edits and several hours to complete your thought, but other editors may not be so patient.  This many edits makes it very hard for another editor to get any productive writing done.  A technique which many editors use, and you might find helpful, it to edit copy your entire passage, edit paste it into Word or someplace where you can spell check and proofread it, and then bring it back to Wiki when it's ready. Sandy 22:17, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Multiple edits