Talk:Appalachian English

message: Personally I find the fact that most of the vocabulary words listed are associated with "backwards", agrarian culture somewhat demeaning towards, or perhaps conforming to stereotypes of the dialects speakers.  I know for a fact that we use many other "special" words on a much more frequent basis than those listed.  Anyone who can, please help.  I would argue with the fact that coloquialisms must be cited.  If the posted words do not conform to the linguistic definitions of the dialect, then take them down by all means, but scholarly works in good repute do not necesarily include every coloquialism that exists within a givin dialect. 24.167.1.71 02:53, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Please do not contribute original research (i.e. one's own thoughts or ideas) to Wikipedia (especially to linguistics articles).  Doing so is against Wikipedia policy. (WP:NOR) 
Aside from that fact, just "living in an area" for a long time does not make one an expert on dialect(s).  There are too many variables to consider (including the influence of mass media, popular culture, and the 20th Century advent of easily-accessible rapid transit).  Unless you are trained and educated in the subject of linguistics, your unqualified opinions may serve to only add confusion to an already complex subject.  "I've never heard..." or "I've always heard..." does not cut it.
I grew up in Western PA, having lived in both the northern and southern parts of the Western State, and I only knew two words to be used here out of the list of sample ones. Whomever wrote this entry has no idea of the terminology used in Appalachia English. As evidenced by the fact that some of the examples used for "common" terminology, are terms that people in this area commonly make fun of "outsiders" for using. Ie "Coke for all carbonated beverages" I've also worked in two movie theatres, and have taken an intensive linguistic course based on the Western Pennsylvania area, and this entry is the first time in my life I've heard that popcorn could be called "caps." 
I don't think I have heard the word for a long time (and, I confess, I had almost forgotten about it) even during my frequent trips back home. But yes, this is authentic AE. The word "cap," however, was/is used mainly (maybe exclusively???; 
I'll have to give this matter some further thought)as a  verb (as in "let's cap some corn"). And the little pot with a long handle that some of us held over the fire in the fireplace was called a "popcorn capper."  All of us used the word then.Eleanor1944 (talk) 20:24, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: No Original Research, Please

message: I'm also from Western PA and agree that almost none of this article applies to PA. Of the "Sample Vocabulary" the only ones in use in PA are:
* Blinds - Didn't know this was local slang
* Lay out - I've heard "laid up", which means to be injured, but it's a very exclusive manual laborer / working class term
* Hull - I've heard this a few times
* Ill (bad tempered) - I've heard this as "ill tempered" and am fairly sure it's not local slang
* Jacket - Not local slang
* Peckerwood - I've heard this used as a general insult
* Pop - The dominant word for carbonated drinks. "coke" is incorrect, "soda" is correct but only used by outsiders
* Toboggan - Is a long wooden sled. Never heard this used to describe a hat
* Tote - Not local slang  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.165.219.247 (talk) 18:22, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anoter Western Pennsylvania anecdote 

message: I think this article and others concerning language would be more usefull if in stead of the linguist's shorthand used to describe pronunciation, words were described phonetically. 
I believe "Do you Speak American" addressed the "holler" pronunciation. The point was that both "HOLLER" and "HOLLAH" are Appalachian, and there is some kind of pattern to which speakers prefer one or the other. I am from the region and observed these different pronunciations - someone should refer to the accompanying book "Do you Speak American?" and add the information to this article. Personally, I think "holler" tends to be used by poorer people and "hollah" by richer ones.
You have a good point. The authentic Appalachian English (AE) pronunciation is "holler." And that is not one of those old pronunciations that most people have dropped. To a lot of people, the pronunciation with a long "o" seems like a terrible affectation, even if they are aware that it is supposed to be pronounced that way. The tendency for those who don't want to use "bad English" is to compromise by using the "holla" pronunciation. Eleanor1944 (talk) 11:32, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: "Holla" is not simply a matter of compromise for those who don't want to say "holler", and it makes no sense to say "holler" is the AUTHENTIC pronunciation.  The standard pronunciation for words ending in a long "o" has been "uh" in my family, who certainly weren't rich and had no pretensions about getting away from "bad English".  A pillow is a "pilluh", and a window is a "winduh".  And really there are no "hollers" in our area; they are called coves and pockets.  One of the flaws with this article is that there is a tendency to want to "standardize" the "authentic" Appalachian English.  But Appalachia is a large region stretching for several hundred miles.  I don't know if the variations are regional and vary north to south, or if they vary depending on whether you are Blue Ridge or Cumberland, or what the variations are based on.  I do not think it has anything to do with economic status or pretense.  Eastcote (talk) 16:10, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

text: I had a great Aunt Sug, long since gone, so I can vouch for the use of "sug" (shug) for "sugar" up through the 1960s.  She was called Aunt Sug because she always had candy ready for the kids.  But then I only heard it in that particular context.  Eastcote (talk) 02:44, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: pronunciation

message: The double negative, of course, is not at all peculiar to AE. It probably is more commonly used in AE than in, say, Los Angeles English in that the level of education is (probably) lower in Applachia than in LA. Kids are not taught about dialects (at least were not in my time) but about "correct" and "improper" English. (I got into tiny bits of trouble back in the 1950s/early 1960s with my "crazy" idea that AE had its own rules, although I spoke Standard English better than most of my fellow students in a prestigious university.) Althugh a few people insist on continuing to speak like what they consider to be ordinary folk, the idea that vernacular is just "bad English" causes people more and more to desert their old usages (in other languages, this is not the case to the same extent; in Arabic, for example, people go back and forth between their local dialects and Modern Standard Arabic). As for a place such as LA (I picked it purely at random), there also are more people for whom English is a second language (and some perhaps may not know it at all, and so they will be less likely to be influenced by local English vernaculars (but rather by other languagges, most likely Spanish). In any case, I think this is a very different situation. But my point is that the double negative is more commonplace in parts of Appalachia mainly because education has caused more people to weed it out in places where larger percentages of the population have, say, graduated from high school over the past few generations. Eleanor1944 (talk) 15:43, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  A disagreement on nuance 

message: In the article it is stated that "both dialects have contributed to the devlopment of African-American Vernacular English". This was in reference to both Appalachian and Southern English. In the majority of recent texts I've read, it is assumed to be the otherway 'round. 
African-American Vernacular is actually a significant source of many of the pronuciations and words common in these dialects. I will update with sources as soon as possible. Matjac 04:35, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A (Significant?) Aditional Disagreement 

message: It's funny that "bluegrass" is mentioned in this connection, as I grew up in the KY Mountains, where the world (I exaggerate slightly) was always divided into two parts--the Mountains and the Bluegrass. Books such as The Little Shepherd of Kingdom Come helped to perpetuate this. 
As for individuals, LBJ sounded a lot like a KY Mountaineer, although he obviously did not use most of the vernacular forms. Bill Clinton sometimes sounds a little bit that way too, enough so that he gets caricatured occasionally, especially in connection with the long "i."
As for TV, I used to say that the people in Mayberry, in the Andy Griffith Show, demonstrated one of the most authentic Mountain accents (though not most of the older words and grammar). After all, most of the settlers in my area of SE KY came from NC (not far from the Research Triangle) in the early 1800s. I don't think they adopted AE after they came there, and the speech of our area is pretty much identical to AE everywhere (I believe AE developed pretty early among early British settlers, combining different dialects from England and perhaps Ulster, in the back country). Eleanor1944 (talk) 15:58, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't use any TV show to illustrate the "authentic" use of Appalachian English.  The only ones with any solid claim to "mountain-ness" in the Andy Griffith Show were Andy (born in Mt Airy, NC), and Don Knotts (born in West Virginia).  The Pyle cousins (Jim Nabors and George Lindsey), were from central Alabama, bordering the tail end of the Appalachians.  The rest of the cast were from all across the country, including New York City, Oklahoma, Los Angeles, Illinois, Kansas, and Michigan.  Eastcote (talk) 16:38, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: People

message: I like this article, though it is stereotypical of many of us Kentuckyians, I have heard my grandmother say many of the words described in this article. I am beginning to use the word "reckoned" more myself. Congrats to whomever made this delightful article.
Эрон Кинней (TALK) 08:08, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree! I live in West Virginia, and I think that this article really gets the dialect down to a t. Everything on this page perfectly explains what I hear on a daily basis.  Savanna-Violet (talk) 00:38, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  I like this article 

message: Great article.
It would be great if in addition to the IPA(?) pronunciation guides in the Pronunciation section that standard English examples could be included as well.  For example "Creek" is pronounced [kɹɪk] like Standard English's "Rick."
Most readers - including this polyglot - cannot read or understand the IPA(?) phonetic alphabet.  --AStanhope 00:43, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree!!!--A. B. 17:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I double agree!--Soltera 16:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expanded Pronunciation Examples Would Be Nice 

message: I don't need sources, I speak the dialect. 
Эрон Кинней 19:05, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Much of the syntactical variation of Appalachian English is derived from the Scots-Irish dialect." How? much. I saw very little that was similar to Scots.
I need sources with proper comparisons (also with other varieties which may be possible sources) and not conjecture. -- unsigned comment
Agreed. Saying "I don't need sources" is like saying "I don't have to explain, I'm just right." It's no way to write an encyclopedia. -- Rob C (Alarob) 17:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I don't need sources 

message: Use of "ain't" softens speech and diction directed toward a specific person or audience, being a contraction of "would fain not" [a reference to the protection of temples and religion] and is also a slang term for "ancient" as a descriptor.  11/26/2005  22:57, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, there is not a single monolithic "real Appalachian English".  I have primarily heard "ain't", and haven't heard "hain't" all that much, at least in this context.  A haint, by the way, is something to scare children....  Eastcote (talk) 23:42, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  real-time use of "ain't" 

message: The article presently contains this sentence:
*"Some speakers claim that those who came to Appalachia from Northern Ireland via Scotland, the Scotch-Irish or Ulster Scots, had the greatest role in shaping modern Appalachian English..."
I'm not about to make any claim about the Scots-Irish influence, just the fact that the Scots-Irish were people of Scottish origin waylaid in Ireland for a few centuries enroute to the Americas.  The current phrasing makes it sound as though it's the other way 'round.  Sigh.  This is why I hate the word via.  No one knows what it means.  Anyway, I'll be changing this. JordeeBec 22:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Via"? 

message: I was surprised to see no mention of "you'ns", use in many areas instead of "you all" or "y'all". Ditto "We'ns"
The plural of "you" in Appalachian English (AE) is "you'ns." I can't say what percentage of the people in any particular area say that today, but those who are continuing the old usage say that. However, people are made fun of for using their native dialect, which usually is treated as just "bad English." Kids learn in school not to talk that way, and if they go outside the area (or even among those in the area who look down on such vernacular) they learn to say "you all" instead. In addition, many people today in places like SE KY want to identify with the South and learn that that is the Southern way of talking.
It is possible that "we'uns" is indigenous to some part of Appalachia, but I doubt it. I never heard it in SE KY, where I am from--or anywhere else as far as I remember. It probably is an invention of somebody who wanted to speak a little AE for fun and did not know how. The logic of this is that "you" is singular, and there is a natural tendency for any dialect to develop a distinctive plural. By contrast, "we" is plural, and there is no need for "we'uns." By the way, I do not normally think of the area north of the Mason-Dixon Line as being part of our region, although much of PA,NY, etc are in the Appalachians. But I was surprised to hear the term "you'uns" from a less educated person in the Harrisonburg area about ten years ago.Eleanor1944 (talk) 02:23, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: All good suggestions. If you are able to find credible sources and cite them, feel free to add them to the article. ++Arx Fortis 00:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  you'ns, we'ns and hit 

message: I've come up with Babel userboxes that might work for Appalachian English. (If you're a Wikipedian but don’t know what userboxes are, or Babel, please read WP:UBX and WP:BABEL.)
Comments are invited, but will be less welcome from folks who don't recognize that "Southern" and "Appalachian" are not the same dialect. Gin ye caint tell nary a diffrence, I'd as lief ye stayed furnint yer own halss an dint bother me none consarnin thisere. 
The boxes are here. -- Rob C (Alarob) 00:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Userbox proposal 

message: "Reckon: think, guess, suppose. I reckon you don't like soup beans. This is an actual English word that is used only in Appalachia, Britain and Australia." 
I live in Indiana, and can attest that the word "reckon" is not used only in Appalachia, Britain and Australia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.254.81.196 (talk) 04:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is often used in Canada as well, so I've added that in.  Not as often as "think", but it's not exactly rare either.  Just search for any Canadian newspaper + "reckon" and you'll get many results.  In my experience, it is used when the desire is to make the sentence sound a little more sophisticated. Odd how that works, no?  Here it is associated more with the King's English rather than with hillbillies. Esn 08:20, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reckon 

message: I'm baffled as to why the area described does not include the Ozarks where a nearly identical dialect is spoken. In fact, I haven't found any description of Appalacian English, other than geographic, in the article that does not apply to Ozark English. I'm both a linguist (in the sense of speaking multiple languages) and a native speaker of Ozark English but I haven't done any "original" research in this area, I'm just baffled at the peculiar exclusion. 
I think the article title should be changed to Southern Midland English and the correct geographic area be covered. There are differences between Appalachian and Ozark varieties but they don't seem to be covered by this article in its current form, anyway. 
The Ozark variety may be in greater danger of disappearing due to tourism and dilution but let's not completely forget it. Halfelven 05:47, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not a linguist, but I definitely remember seeing "Midland" as a category or classification of American English dialects on maps from various dictionaries (probably all variations of Webster's, whether Merriam-Webster, Simon & Schuster, or otherwise), and I do believe at least one of the maps broke it down into "Northern" and "Southern Midland". The area basically begins in the Mid-Atlantic region on the East coast, and includes Delaware, Maryland, District of Columbia, and much of New Jersey, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Kentucky, Missouri, and eastern Kansas (areas further west had not been fully studied yet), as well as parts of New York, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Virginia, Tennessee, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Texas. I believe it definitely has, or had, some currency among lexographers (dictionary writers), if not other linguists. I am not sure if in fact it has any ties or relationship to the Midland dialect in England; so I cannot rule this possibility out. The dialect seems to be approximately intermediate between "northern" and "southern" US speech, is largely rhotic, and is basically (though not entirely) identified with much of the Midwestern and Western United States, although points further west than eastern Kansas have not been thoroughly analyzed. By the way, since when does there have to be a consensus (total agreement) among experts in a given field in order for something to be worthy of inclusion? User:Shanoman12.40.34.150 13:55, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ozark English + Appalachian English + X = Southern Midland English 

message: I'm a bit put off by the fact that this article claims that AP-uh-LAY-shun is the correct and common pronunciation of the word "Appalachian" outside of the area. I have consulted several sources, including the author of "Is There a Cow in Moscow?" (Charles Harrington Elster), who says that the pronunciation AP-uh-LAY-shun is not accepted by any modern dictionaries as being preferred. I can attest to the fact that AP-uh-LATCH-in is used here. It's even listed in many dictionaries (where as AP-uh-LAY-shun is only listed in two, according to Elster), and was once preferred by most (says his book, "Is There a Cow in Moscow?") Any other users out there that agree that this needs to be changed? - Isaac Smith 03:57, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Appalachian: Pronunciation?

message: This term is in common use in Cornwall, UK (the only Celtic county in England and with its own distinct and recently revived Cornish language) and, while not exclusive to the area, it is considered to be such a characteristic local expression that it appears on souvenirs and humourous stickers for t-shirts, cars etc (e.g. "Cornishmen do it dreckly"). Worth linking? Expecially given the other Celtic influences/citations (Scots/Irish). Plutonium27 (talk) 15:59, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Directly/Dreckly 

message: Where is West Anglia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.179.82 (talk) at 16:28, 15 July 2008
: HAHA!! Just what i was thinking, blatant Americanism, East Anglia is probably what they were looking for. 167.1.176.4 (talk) 09:22, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Where in the article is "West Anglia" mentioned?  Bms4880 (talk) 13:24, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  West Anglia 

message: I've made several changes:
* Slight re-wording of the lead, moved specifics regarding the Scots-Irish origins to the new "Origins" section.
* I added citations for as many items as I could find.  If there are any examples of original research, please point them out.
* I split colloquialisms into a separate section.  
* I added several words to the vocabulary section.
* I created a section comparing Appalachian English to other dialects.  This section should probably be expanded, as its the basic statement as to why Appalachian is a distinct dialect.
 
I removed, truncated, or re-worded examples using eye dialect in the Sample vocabulary section.  Attempts to represent Appalachian speech using eye dialect typically rely on local dialects (sometimes very localized), and it's almost impossible to represent our entire region using this method.  Furthermore, phonetic Appalachian representation (or any dialect) tends to confuse people living outside the dialect region, especially people who aren't native English speakers.  Basically, while eye dialect can be amusing, it does more harm than good.  In an encyclopedic context, it should only be used when necessary to explain a word's pronunciation or context.
When adding words to the sample vocabulary section, editors should take care that the word is part of the Appalachian dialect, and not simply local slang or words that have crept into the local vernacular from an adjacent dialect region.  I found sources for most of these, however.  Bms4880 (talk) 17:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes, 11/25/2008

message: I've removed bias words and added requested citations.  If there are any more issues with bias in the Origins section, please point them out.  Bms4880 (talk) 20:24, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality dispute 

message: While the Scotch-Irish and Northern English settlers had a strong influence on the Appalachian dialect,[85] linguistic analyses suggest that most of the dialect is American in origin
Really? So it's a direct descendant of Old Euessaic, which itself is a descendant of the native Proto-American tongue that was spoken around 8000 BC by the ancient Proto-Cowboy people in what is today Northern California? Influence from the British Isles is marginal and amounts to a few loanwords? Jokes aside, I suppose I can guess approximately what this sentence was meant to express, but the wording is imprecise to the point of being confusing and it can seem a little Freudian, too.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 00:01, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In other words, it evolved as a distinct dialect in what is now the United States.  Elements of the dialect are found in Colonial American English that aren't present in the English of the British Isles.  Bms4880 (talk) 01:34, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: American in origin

message: I don't think that this has been discussed yet; though if it has, I do apologize. My general concern is that the picture currently appearing at the start of the article, which is a picture of the general "Appalachia" region of the United States, is probably not 100% appropriate and potentially misleading. While this article is about the Appalachian dialect of English, the article itself makes it clear that this dialect is not present throughout all or even a majority of the Appalachian region. Although the term "Appalachian English" is spoken in regions of Appalachia, it seems potentially misleading in the sense that the dialect is not spoken in the entire region shown. I would suggest either getting a new picture, which covers a more limited area, or simply removing the picture all together. 74.228.64.159 (talk) 18:04, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proper picture? 

message: Could someone with access to the original source figure out why this is being called a double noun, with the second word being redundant? Wikitionary says that "stair" can refer to either a single step or an entire set of stairs. Thanks! Allens (talk) 02:43, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That's why it's a double noun.  One could simply say "step" or "stair".  To say "stair step" puts two nouns together redundantly.  Eastcote (talk) 11:33, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: "Stair" can mean either a single step or an entire set of stairs (how can one necessarily tell which is meant? Context doesn't always indicate), and "step" can mean a lot of different things. "Stair" by itself is insufficiently specific; "a stair step" is a way of compactly saying "a step of a set of stairs". Allens (talk) 12:23, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That's how all the double nouns work.  "Standard" American usage would be to simply say "Item X is on the stairs", or "Item X is on the step".  To double it up to say "Item X is on the stair step" is an Appalachian usage.  Eastcote (talk) 23:30, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In that particular case, I can see the argument that "stair step" is redundant. But in the phrases "That stair needs fixing" or "That step needs fixing", it is either unclear as to that it's only a single step that needs fixing, or a confusing usage of "step", whereas "That stair step needs fixing" is clear(er), and thus not redundant. Allens (talk) 12:41, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that's why the aticle says "seemingly" redundant.  While they seem redundant to a speaker of Standard American English, to the Appalachian ear double nouns are not redundant.  One makes the other clearer, e.g. that's not just a dog, it's a particular kind of dog, a "hound dog" or a "poodle dog".  Eastcote (talk) 13:01, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point; thank you. (Although I'm from Appalachia, and would call "hound dog" or "poodle dog" redundant - it's "stair step" that isn't.) Allens (talk) 13:05, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Double nouns: "stair step"? 

message: Eleanor1944 recently made an editorial comment that "in fact, the term [Appalachian] was not well known in the area until recently and thus had no vernacular pronunciation, but some teachers in Appalachian Studies seem to have decided that this [Appa-latch-ian] is the correct pronunciation".  (Never mind for a moment that Eleanor1944 should provide citations and should avoid edits that are personal opinion).  I would agree with Eleanor1944 on this particular point.  No one I know of, while in the region, ever had the need to use the word "Appalachian".  My family never used the word till we left the region, and I always heard it pronounced "Appa-lay-shun".  If giving a reference of where we were from, we always said "Sand Mountain".   These days I say "Appalachia" but that's because of who I'm speaking to.  When living in the mountains there was no reason to use the word.  Eastcote (talk) 13:22, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's used fairly commonly in East Tennessee, with the "latch" pronunciation.  Bms4880 (talk) 20:23, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest that instead of wholescale edit-warring (one person removing what the other has put in), a tag of Dubious (put inside doubled { and } symbols) on anything that Eleanor1944's experience contradicts is preferable. Allens (talk) 22:53, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree.  What Eleanor1944 suggests violates WP:OR.  It's original research.  The material in the article must be backed by a secondary source.  Bms4880 (talk) 00:08, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have to agree with Bms4880.  The Talk page is the place for personal commentary, not the article.  If Eleanor1944 can provide sources, OK, but otherwise it's OR.  Eastcote (talk) 02:29, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I see that what I said was unclear. What I was suggesting was that Eleanor1944 not put in new material without sources for it - but that she should label (via Template:Dubious) material that, so far as she knows, is incorrect, so that people can be encouraged to seek out new reliable sources on it. The material in the article should certainly be backed by sources - but it should also be correct, or at least warn the reader when it might not be; such a warning is the function of that template, as is encouraging seeking out new reliable sources. Allens (talk) 02:44, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I see.  Yes, I agree with that.  Eastcote (talk) 03:33, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see the point of a dubious tag.  If Eleanor1944 thinks all the published material is flawed based on nothing more than personal experience, then there isn't much to discuss.  Furthermore, I don't understand the complaint– that the "latch" pronunciation is not frequently used, that's not the correct pronunciation, that it's not the original way to pronounce it, what's the complaint?  Bms4880 (talk) 03:55, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

text: That's just your opinion. As to Wolfram, he's also entitled to his opinion, and he's probably right about where he is from, assuming he actually said/believes that, as you provided no sources for the claim. We're certainly not going to add it to the article without a direct citation. - BilCat (talk) 07:32, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation of the word "Appalachian" revisited 

message: This article contains a sourced statement that somehow "warsh" or "worsh" is an Appalachian pronunciation of "wash".  Maybe some speakers of "Appalachian English" use it, but none in my family (from the area where Georgia, Tennessee and Alabama meet).  I now live in Michigan, and it is often heard here, spoken by native Michiganians.  I always thought it was a Michigan thing and it always sounded strange to my ear.  Even if some speakers of Appalachian English pronounce "wash" this way, it is by no means an exclusively Appalachian pronunciation, so shouldn't be used as an example of Appalachian English.  Eastcote (talk) 17:13, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This is r-intrusion, explained under phonemic incidence.  It's extremely common in some parts of the region, and occurs in other words ("ought to" as "orta", e.g.).  Bms4880 (talk) 20:21, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

text: Yes, but is it something that is peculiar to Appalachian English?  Or is it found in other regions as well?  As I said, I hear it in Michigan, from people with varied backgrounds:  Polish, German, Irish, etc.  So I'm not sure this is something that is peculiarly "Appalachian".  Eastcote (talk) 20:58, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's not peculiar to Appalachian English.  Bms4880 (talk) 21:03, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, not something I can point to as research, but I likewise grew up in Southeast KY (Middlesboro, to be precise), with the nearest city being Knoxville, TN, and do not remember hearing that much r-intrusion there - I think I did when I went further south, though. Allens (talk) 21:18, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wash vs Warsh. 

message: This page is getting quite large. It's a good practice to archive older comments, moving them to indexed pages that are linked to this talk page. This can be a tedious chore. But there is a bot,  MiszaBot I, that will do the work for us if we choose. The bot userpage makes the following suggestion: 
 
So do we have a consensus? — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 05:43, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine with me.  Bms4880 (talk) 14:17, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to automatically archive the page 

message: Some of the contributors who are active on this page might want to get involved in other parts of Wikiproject Appalachia. If so, please join us at Wikipedia:WikiProject Appalachia. --Orlady (talk) 22:19, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Invitation

message: I see no mention of the link between French and the Bible in Appalachian speking here which is odd. For example, "Then up spake this man...." OR to start an action in a rapid fashion with no reason, as in "He commenced to singing". Coal town guy (talk) 17:41, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the sources I checked mention French or the Bible as an influence on this dialect, specifically (French, of course, influenced English in general).  Bms4880 (talk) 18:17, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Up spake and he commenced to

message: The term "jasper" is a generalized usage of the male given name "Jasper" and is used similarly to "joe" as a token for an unnamed male individual. It is slightly derisive, carrying the flavor of stranger or outsider. The closest general American equivalent I can think of would be "guy." Hogwaump (talk) 12:09, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Jasper" is not synonymous with "acquaintance" 

message: The current phonology section is incomplete and needs to be revised. In addition to many examples only being given in the author's personal pseudo-phonetic rendering (which in many cases is ambiguous even if it referred to a single standard dialect, and regardless is ambiguous as to which dialect is used as the reference point), many important differences between Appalachian English and other dialects are ignored. All examples should be given in IPA and probably En-PR, with a note at the beginning about phonetic transcription. Also, is there a good description of the exact realization of AE's vowels? I know certain vowels are quite different from other dialects, /u/ being realized as /y/ for example, and there must be proper linguists studying AE phonology. Telmac (talk) 04:41, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expand phonology section and always give IPA 

message: The sample word list given is excessively long and inappropriate for an article of this scope. We're not providing a dictionary here, I'm aware of short lists of dialect specific words appearing on their wikipedia articles but it's excessive here. Also, as mentioned above, no mention is made with regards to inter-appalachian variation and some or many of these words might not be present in all regions in appalachia. Someone with more knowledge of AE should tighten the list to a handful of common examples. Telmac (talk) 04:47, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with a "handful." I think the list is a decent length, but I don't think it would be bad to shrink it some. It think it should have at least 25 words. I'm not sure what words you would want to leave in though. Dope and poke are some deep Appalachian words that are common examples, but aren't in some regions such as mine. These are some really unique words that I believe belong in the article. There is no reason to limit the list to words that are everywhere in the region. 184.58.100.105 (talk) 00:24, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Word List too long and inappropriate for article 

message: What works? It says this but I do not see any links nor references to these known works. 184.58.100.105 (talk) 00:28, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "It is mostly oral but can also be written and appears in some known literary works." 

message: I do not think that this line really should be on the page.  First, it is sometimes said that African-American English developed from the Southern drawl, not the other way around.  Secondly, the Southern accent at times is not viewed very friendly.  Therefore, the line could be perceived as blaming African Americans for the Southern drawl.  (Note: the Southern drawl is sometimes used in general to refer to the Southern accent.)  Therefore, I feel the line should be removed.  Thank you.LakeKayak (talk) 01:09, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The southern drawl is of an unknown American origin, although some suspect it originated in African-American English." 

message: Studies suggest that "Ozark English" and "Appalachian English" are the same dialect (one an "extension" or separated "island" subset of the other); features of both traditional Ozark and Appalchian English may be declining, as evidenced by a lack of much Ozark-focused dialect research since the middle of the 1900s, as well as the recent classification of both the Ozark and (especially) Appalachian regions under the Southern dialect region by the 2006 Atlas of North American English. Any sources that don't directly equate the two do consistently highlight their similarities, yet never their differences. 
The merging of the two articles has never happened, though I proposed it in the past on the Southern American English talk page. In that discussion, one user opposed without further discussion (even when asked to elucidate), one user brought up a single argument I feel I countered, and one user supported without further discussion. No full discussion was ever had over the course of at least 9 months, though I found and included later evidence to bolster my points. Below is my evidence in full supporting the merger: 
*The 1948 article "Southern Mountain Dialect", for example, refers to an Appalachian-Ozark variety as a single dialect with as much slight internal variation as any dialect: "Though fairly consistent in the isolated districts (with which we are mainly concerned), the dialect may vary slightly with the locality, and even from family to family." It lists "four main divisions" geographically, which include "the Blue Ridge of Virginia and West Virginia, the Great Smokies of Tennessee and North Carolina, the Cumberlands of Kentucky and Tennessee [all three constituting the Appalachian region], and the Ozarks of Arkansas and southern Missouri" [p. 46]). This passage unifies Appalachian and Ozark English.
*Here is what the more recent research that I could find has to say on Ozark English:
**John C. Wells' (1982) Accents of English lists "Ozarks" in the index with a "see also 'southern mountain'". Wells clearly centers "southern mountain" speech on Appalachian and "upland states", which "form a transition zone between the south and midland dialect areas; their southern mountain speech is classified as south midland by Kurath, but popularly regarded as a variety of southern accent" (527). This passage unifies Appalachian and Ozark English.
**"Variation and Change in Geographically Isolated Communities: Appalachian English and Ozark English" (1984), a 200-page comparative study, does initially speak of Appalachian and Ozark English as two different dialects or "varieties", yes, but the entire goal of the study is to unearth more about the relationships between the two. The conclusion states that the study considered "the descriptive detail of the [grammatical] structures we have examined, [and] the frequency with which the various structures are used" (p. 235). The findings of the study: "that there are no descriptive differences in the representative structures we have examined here" (p. 235) and then: "the frequency relationships between the varieties also shows fairly close parallels, with some non-significant differences" (p. 235). This passage unifies Appalachian and Ozark English.
** World Englishes (2013) plainly says "The Ozark Mountains can be seen as an extension of the Appalachian English dialect" (48). This passage unifies Appalachian and Ozark English. Wolfdog (talk) 14:37, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger: Ozark English → Appalachian English 

message: OK, since the opposition to the original move has apparently passed and/or there is no opposition to the new move specifically to Appalachian English, I'll prepare to move the page in the coming days. On the topic of this dead or dying dialect, we will likely only lose sources over the years, not gain more. This will make it difficult to ever meaningfully expand the Ozark English stub. Wolfdog (talk) 16:29, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: While I am not personally a speaker of any of the varieties of English found in Appalachia, this is a topic that I find fascinating. Reading through this talk page as well as looking into some of the existing linguistic research, I have realized that there is a fair amount of controversy over how the boundaries for this variety should be drawn. There are even some linguists who believe that the whole variation of Appalachian English might not exist at all given the huge variety of dialects spoken in this area of the country. There are many sources about this topic, but I will link a couple down below that I found interesting. 
Is There an "Appalachian English"?- http://www.jstor.org/stable/40932575?seq=2#page_scan_tab_contents
Yet Again: The Midland Dialect - http://www.jstor.org/stable/455860  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mbooneroberts (talk • contribs) 18:26, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Mbooneroberts. I am your fellow ANTH 383 classmate and chose your article to peer review. I have a few suggestions for the article and thought it would be nice to have them on the article's talk page.
Overall, the article was very strong. It had comprehensive coverage of different aspects of this language variety (grammar, lexicon, phonology, etc.), and seemed to give fairly balanced and neutral coverage. Here are my suggestions/comments going through the article:
* The first sentence was a good definition sentence to start out the lead section.
* The second sentence of the lead section was a run-on and hard to follow--you might consider breaking this up or not including so much material.
* In all, the lead section was a bit too detailed for an opening. The types of Appalachian English and its relatives could have its own section in the body, but the lead section might be better used to go over the main points of the rest of the article. This, I think, will help the reader better follow what's going on.
* In that regard, the second paragraph of the lead section would be great for the beginning of the "Origins" section.
* The third paragraph of the lead section seems to belong in its own section, perhaps on the social role and realities of Appalachian English (now we're getting into sociolinguistics territory). 
Now on to the "Phonology" section ... 
* This section has some great details, but the "Phonetics" subsection would benefit from an introductory sentence that clues the reader in to what follows. 
* Both subsections have material that is not cited. Most of the time, the uncited content is not imperative to the article, and can be easily deleted. 
* The 4th bullet of the "Phonetics" subsection is referring to the PIN/PEN merger--it would be good to make this explicit. 
* As a reader I am not immediately certain about how the content of the "Phonetics" and "Phonemic Incidence" subsections is different--maybe you could clarify this with introductory sentences or merge the two subsections?
Now on to "Grammar" ... 
* This section might also benefit from a very brief introductory sentence.
* Maybe you could add an example sentence for the "To Be" subsection?
* The "Other Verb Forms" subsection has a lot of missing citations.
* The "Liketa" subsection might fit slightly better in the "Lexicon" section--however, this might not be ideal since there is much more detail about this particular word than the other words included. Maybe you could reprise the word in the "Lexicon" section?
* The "Pronouns and Demonstratives" subsection doesn't have any citations.
* Finally, the "Origins" and "Ozarks" sections are well-done, but I feel like they would fit better at the beginning. 
In all, this article presents a good summary of Appalachian English and is fairly Encyclopedia-like. The biggest themes for change are adding introductory sentences where necessary and making sure things are properly cited. I hope this helped, and I look forward to seeing the final product! Sparks9714 (talk) 00:35, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

text: ...Why... thank you? Wolfdog (talk) 02:01, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding a section about the controversies?  

message: The Appalachian (and Scottish Standard) dialects use the past participle following some verbs (need, e.g.).
https://ygdp.yale.edu/phenomena/needs-washed GrammarBroad (talk) 03:09, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammatical Structure ‘need’ + past participle