Talk:Nair/Archive 2

message: I have archived the previous discussion. Please ensure that you post all new discussions to THIS talk page, and not the archived one. --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്) 16:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archived

message: A user named Ramkumb seems to be using Wiki as his propaganda media. I would like to tell the Nair activists that this is not a place for your biased Nair eulogy. He has not even bothered about adding an edit summary where he vandalise article removing historically established points like the loose marriage system giving rise to promiscuity etc. Epithets like illustrious would better sutit a Nair Organisation pamphlet than an encyclopedia article. You may desist frm such unscrupulous removal of content and adding biased views. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.91.253.208 (talk • contribs) 
Unbiasedness is a virtue which should be expected from one side of a debate. First cousins are not confid to nair community. It exist in muslims the world over, castes like ezhavas, tamil Brahmins etc. There are many ways to express a statement. you could put them in such a way as to sound it as sinful or as a virtue. Or you could state in a more objective way. I don't think that anyone who had gone through the edit of the illustrious friend who wrote the above post would term them as unbiased. Calling first cousin marriage incestous  and putting a personal; verdict is deplorable. Statements like Nair women were mistresses of upper castes are horrible examples of twisting facts to suit one's perverted arguments. there are jokes about all castes in Yeh mera India. Dangling them publicly is undignified. Probably my friend should have a good look at himself in a mirror and ask himself whether he is doing what he preaches.
RAKS —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raksmanna (talk • contribs) 
"Unbiasedness is a virtue which should be expected from one side of a debate."
You need to eat your words unless you missed a "not" by mistake. 
Incest is sexual or marital relation between kindred. The case in  point qualifies for that title.Tamil Brahmins had the custom of a girl marrying her own uncle on the mother's side (Mother's brother).
That Nair community served as the mistress base for the upper classes is a well known fact. You can find that in more than one work of Ilamkulam Kunchanpillai. 
You want me to stand naked or clad before a mirror?
Putting half truths and twisted arguments to suit one's arguments and then putting a veneer of impartiality is an old method. Our friend who remains unnamed is using a tried and tested technique. Tamil brahmin boys also have a practise of marrying the maternal uncle's daughter. i guess i know the practise of the community i belong to. Muslim boys marry even paternal uncle's daughter. your impatient angst in your last post makes one wonder whether you haven't a personal agenda. The tremendous contribution of the community in the past and present are not even passingly referred. UPPER CASTE BASHING for all the real and imagined ills of society seems to be the inthing. The Brahmin is ultimately blamed for the social backwardness of certain communities today. Our friend seems to be following the same path. Then you should be prepared for reponses to your argument. But why get impatient when somebody expresses different opinions? 
SREE
Sree, you are right. It seems to be the fashion today. If he reads works like Indulekha and Marthanda Varma, he will understand how wrong he is. Maybe he should read them and get his facts right. Probably he has not heard Nairs who were commanders and diwans like Raja Kesava Das or Veluthampi. He beleives that if half turuths are repeated 10 times it would be truth and others are expected to believe them. In spite of all the famous people it has produced through the ages and the tremendous contribution in all walks of life, the writer likes to be blind and think they do not have an illustrious history and likes to think that encyclopedic writing follows the rules set by him. As you said, twisting or bending facts either because it suits his agenda or due to ignorance. How he dismisses others views? With utter impatence and contempt
Ashwin
You deal in vague generalities and demand facts from others? Yes, I gave you some facts. I explained what incest was. It is a generally accepted definition. I mentioned a reputed historian (incidentally himself a Nair) who has mentioned a number of times in his works the promiscuity prevalent among the Nair caste. Stop shying away from the facts and try to answer them.
The implication of 'incest' varies from society to society. What's considered incest in one society may not be considered so in others. About mistresses, if you mean sambandham, Nampoothiris had sambandham with varmas, ambalavasis and nairs. The children of these marriages were recognised as children of the Nampoothiri but did not have claim to paternal property. I read in another article in wikipedia that nairs could legally keep concubines from so called lower castes. It was accepted as norm by all and i don't think it would have created any furore then. I think the issue of morality then should not be viewed with the prism of modern sense of morality. If your comments had generated so many responses, it may be because it was felt that you did not take into consideration the status the community enjoyed and as one pointed out the contribution to society yesterday and today. And may be you sounded impatient to criticism. Again, my friend why add caste jokes??I am not for verbal sparring
RAKS
Some comments regarding the latest edits
1. The edits have added some names in the 'Classification based on Profession'. How those castes are different from Nairs (as commonly used) has been discussed already in the article and thus a separate heading alloted. The same discussion had been carried out at length, including the non-inclusion of these castes in community organisations like Nair Service Society. 
2. The new additions were made on the basis of the argument 'If you have this section new entries also must be there'. The classification were earlier given in the hierarchial (decreasing) order of the [power, prestige and nobility of the various subcastes in ancient Kerala. One wonders why the new additions of castes whose occupations were considered less prestigous, were put before the most powerful subcaste, the Kiriyathils on the very top of the hierarchy. One wonders why the author of the edits who was so eager to set the record (in the way as he sees it) right,failed to notice this.
3. No discussion was attempted or views expressed before or accompanying the edits.
4. Those attempting edits may please attempt to discuss the topic to be changed/revised. Edits that serve to fulfill anybody's personal agenda or personal bias (for or against any caste, community, ethnic group etc.) may be avoided. Then the same response could be expected from those holding different or opposite views. Attempting to forestall a response or argument by alleging chauvinism or personal agenda would only lead to prolonged bitter and acrimonious debate that serves no purpose.
No editing has been carried out by this author pending a healthy exchange of views.      
RAKS (Sept. 20, 2006)
:RAKS, The answer is very simple. We are not dealing here with what Nair has been a hundred years ago. When you say "How those castes are different from Nairs (as commonly used)"... you are relying on a fallacy too poor to deserve a serious treatment. I live in Kerala and I am sure, in Kerala, Nair is "commonly used" to denote the denominations I added. 2. The hierarchy (which left a very large chunk in the lurch) was so stupid that I didn't care for that at all. 3. Edits don't require prior consensus. 4. My edit had no agenda as you hint at. Rather the article is seriously non-neurtral and casteist and factually blundering to boot. None conversant with Nair traditions of Northern Kerala seems to have participated in the edits. Much of the article doesn't even apply in the case of Nair of Northern distrticts. More edits more comments to follow. Kuntan 08:25, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Nair Chauvinism Here! 

message: It is very difficult to follow the above discussion and to know who said what when. It is important to sign your posts. Please see Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages --ArmadilloFromHell 04:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Signing posts

message: The article needs serious abridgement to reduce Kilo Bytes. The quotes on Nairs can be done without with no harm to the body of the article.
Savemalayalam 05:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Length of Article 

message: In the article, it is claimed that Nairs are Kshatriyas/Warrior Class. But according  to the Class system in India, they fall into the Shudra class. Nairs are not Dvijas. Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas are Dvijas. Since Nairs are not Dvijas, they are of Shudra Status.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.17.230.9 (talk • contribs) 
Nairs are not dvijas since apart from brahmins,  there are no other dvija castes in Kerala, or South India for that matter. So your argument is not logical, because your model only applies to North India (where those who are not dvijas are shudras). In the South, only Savarna and Avarna are present, with the Savarna equating to the "dvijas" of North India (those who undertook the brahmin, kshatriya and vaishya jobs), and Avarna being equated with the North Indian "shudra" (laborious jobs,etc.)
Kshatriya Grandmaster 03:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Classification of Nairs

message: Ok whats the meaning of koothachi? is it a title or sumat? the samanthan article is being constantly vandalised by a user SanjKaimal by adding nair names etc..again i am reapeatin ive specifcally read, learnt the samanthan groups and not a single nair clan fits into it...they are the fixed 6 grps..thsts all...
This user mentions tht samanthans women are koothachis and i think he had even written thevathichi...ive heard of thankachi as a title...and thevathichi is a slang word...thts y im askin u guys...whts kootachi?Manu
koothachi is another name given by locales for devadasi's or similar women who host some dance programme [kooth) in ancient days. these devadasis performed not only dances but also some extra carricular activites like entertaining people with sexual abilities. gradually the dances were abolished and only their other profession remained. thats why later on koothachi became synonymous to prostitutes ref:  ജാതിവ്യ്വസ്ഥയും കേരള ചരിത്രവും. പികെ ബാലകൃഷണന്‍. കറന്‍റ് ബുകസ്. 2005  --ചള്ളിയാന്‍ 13:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Koothachis 

message: I have removed the following text as it is extremely POV:
The nairs pioneered the art of warfare by creating the worlds oldest and one of the most articulate martial arts Kalaripayattu. The ramification of Kalaripayattu meant that it was further spread up north and evidently evolved into other forms of martial art such as Kung fu. Whilst the rest of the world and India were fighting wars in a barbaric manner the nairs had given birth to eloquent civilised art forms such as Kalaripayattu and from that came Marmam Marmam was a very advanced way to temporarily or permanently disable or kill an opponent using only a finger strike. Marmam capitalised on the copious knowledge of acupressure and other deadly arts that the Nairs had. However in recent times Marmam has been used only for therapeutic purposes it is known to cure many ailments and illnesses. --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്) 21:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV info regarding Kalaripayattu 

message: I have undertaken a major rewrite of the article. Secondly, I have removed to classification of Nairs as "sudra". While true to a certain extent according to the varna system, they can also be considered as Kshatriyas seeing as they were martial, and were also rulers. Leaving it in there is only going to start an edit war. --65.39.85.244
:Hey ur rewrite is appreciable...perhaps you can rewrite the Nambiar article which is totally, forgive me, crappe. Nevertheless, you seem to have forgotten the list of surnames while editing this article Manu
::Oops! I went ahead and added it back in. I think I accidentally deleted it while rewriting the article. --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്) 10:30, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major rewrite