Talk:Hindustani phonology

message: It's looking good, Tuncrypt. I'm starting to switch from a bullet presentation to prose. kwami (talk) 01:28, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, and thanks for the edits. The first part of my plan was to wipe out the script- and other non-related material. Now I'm adding in referenced bits from the sources I fortunately have available to me (Shapiro and Masica, plus Ohala on the net). Ohala's about used up and Shapiro is also nearing the end, though the Urdu article from the book Shapiro is in is quite massive, so there's more to come. It'll take a while, but yeah. Tuncrypt (talk) 04:07, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Untitled 

message: In this page /ʔ/ is not listed, but it would most certainly seem to exist in Urdu. I do remember reading that Hindi speakers, and even Urdu speakers in casual speech, drop /ʔ/ altogether, but I think it would still be good to discuss it. 67.165.249.115 (talk) 18:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a reference for these claims?  Cheers.  Grover cleveland (talk) 06:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

text: About ʒ I don't know but ʔ will be addressed. It is used in hypercorrect Urdu. Tuncrypt (talk) 15:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Urdu does have  listed as part of its alphabet. I believe I’ve seen it ‘transcribed’ in Hindi as झ़ once, but I can’t remember where, and most sources that mention  say it has no exact Devanagari correspondent anyway. Naim says it occurs in a few learned words borrowed from Persian and in the transliteration of certain European names, and gives its pronunciation as /ʒ/. The Urdu online dictionary at http://www.crulp.org/oud/ lists a handful of words with , though I myself can’t tell how common they are at all:  ‘dew, hail’;  ‘entangled’;  ‘eyelash’; and so on. Psi-Lord (talk) 21:20, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Status of /ʔ/

message: It's my understanding that /ʂ/ and /ɳ/ are both found only in hypercorrect pronunciation of Sanskrit loanwords, and as allophones of /ʃ/ and /n/ when immediately preceding or following retroflex plosives.  Currently /ɳ/ appears in the table of consonants as a marginal phoneme, while /ʂ/ is absent.  Would there be any objection to adding /ʂ/ as another marginal phoneme?  Cheers.  Grover cleveland 07:06, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ɳ is not an allophone of n like ʂ is of ʃ. Tuncrypt 18:15, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

text: And /ɳ/ and [ʂ] are not "hypercorrect" per se like ʔ in Urdu... they're just correct, in a standard sort of way. Tuncrypt 18:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: /ʂ/ and /ɳ/

message: Aeusoes. I guess there's no problem with condensing together Approximant and Lateral Approximant. But I don't understand your condensing of Dental and Alveolar, and your movement of Nasal to the top. Please discuss. Tuncrypt 18:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly.  The official IPA charts I've seen put nasal as the first row and if I recall correctly, instructional guides say to put it as the top one.  I condensed dental and alveolar because there is no contrast between any consonant on just the dental/alveolar feature.  Also, since the dental consonants were already marked with a dental diacritic, it is clear which ones are dental and which are alveolar (if there are other dental consonants, a diacritic can go below this ones as well).  I also changed stop to plosive but I assume since you aren't asking why that that's not a controversial change.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 19:40, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Table

message: I've always wondered about ɳ. Could someone give a word where it exists (aside from nasal assimilation cases, such as ʈəɳɖ 'cold'). In all the words which have the letter ण (e.g. कारण), it seems to me that those are really cases of ɽ̃ (sort of the opposite of what is attributed to Shapiro on the actual page--in that (IMHO) the ɽ̃  is the underlying phoneme (for borrowings anyway), but the ɳ is the allomorph. But even then, not of ɽ̃ , but rather just some unspecified N at the same point of articulation as the following consonant ɖ, ʈ, etc.) 
I realize that ण is considered a nasal being in the 5th line of the वर्णमाला, but really, it's always a nasalized retroflex flap instead of the plain vanilla nasal (except where it is assimilation), no?
Bob Eaton  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.251.33.214 (talk) 13:34, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Though I guess the way things are are the ways things are for etymological (e.g. "five corresponding nasal stops") and cross-linguistic comparison purposes. Tuncrypt (talk) 17:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: /ɳ/ and /ɽ̃/

message: I'm not a expert in this area, but anyway, should Hindu be corrected to Hindi in the first paragraph?  In the phrase "Hindu and Urdu."
71.174.112.73 (talk) 02:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 07:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hindu/Hindi 

message: According to Persian phonology, Persian has the voiced postalveolar fricative . This sound is not included in the list of phonemes introduced to Hindi-Urdu in Persian loan words, though. Any particular reason why not? Was it replaced by something else? —Angr If you've written a quality article... 12:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: list some words with it Tuncrypt (talk) 23:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know any; I don't know Persian. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 23:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: well it's mostly like to have been transposed to dʒ Tuncrypt (talk) 00:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Voiced postalveolar fricative? 

message: I find this rather confusing.  Do we not need some mention of how these sounds tie in to specific letters??  It is difficult to work it out, especially when the sounds given at Hindustani orthography are different from those on this page.  Do [e] and [ɛ] represent different letters or are they allophones or what?  Widsith (talk) 09:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  links to orthography 

message: Per the edit war with Tuncrypt, who points to Masica (1991) in arguing that we should say some speakers of Hindi are producing substandard speech as opposed to nonstandard, here is the actual quote in question:
Admittedly such parameters, while representing a real and growing sociolinguistic reality, are at the same time both arbitrary and somewhat vague.  Speakers who fail to consistently maintain  (confusing them with /ph, j, s/ are by this definition substandard, although these are "foreign" sounds...
What Masica is saying is that if you consider this feature to be intrinsic to standard speech, then you are the kind of person to see differences from the standard as distance from quality.  However, he is not endorsing this view and in the overall context he's saying that the measure of conserving some sounds and not others is arbitrary.  Given the context, it seems pretty clear that the word "substandard" is ironic and because we're taking information from him out of context that keeping "substandard" violates WP:NPOV.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 22:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, true. I concede. Go ahead with your edit. Tuncrypt (talk) 22:35, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: substandard/nonstandard

message: Most phonology articles of other languages also list the basic correspondence between grapheme/alphabet and the phoneme, despite the fact that there is usually a separate article about the script. Here we should also have one for Hindi-Urdu in devanagari and Perso-Arabic. I am planning to add vowel and consonant table in a few days. Please consider.Cygnus_hansa (talk) 21:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: grapheme

message: What does "the stress falls automatically on the penultimate heaviest syllable" mean? If the word is medium-light-heavy, I assume that it will not have penultimate stress, but have no idea if it would be antepen. or ult. kwami (talk) 07:24, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I found some info, a summary of Hussein, but it wasn't very well worded. The original would be better. Other stuff I've found doesn't appear to agree, but all are problematic. kwami (talk) 09:10, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stress 

message: In the box where all the stops are listed it gives IPA [fal] for phāl. That can't be correct, surely? Nothingbutmeat (talk) 13:09, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, [fal] is incorrect. —ШαмıQ✍ @ 14:38, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, the word is supposed to have , but the audio recording currently has . — Eru·tuon 19:04, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  ph 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I suspect that the bilabial pronunciation of the phoneme /v/ is actually the bilabial approximant (approximant, not fricative!) -- rather than the labialized velar approximant. The two sounds are barely distinguishable in practice, but the thing is: Why should the sound undergo velarization in one position and not in another? It's unlikely. German is another language where [v]~[ʋ]~[β] are allophonous and the pronunciation there is definitely [β] (used post-consonantally by some speakers). Something very similar can be said about Dutch, too.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.188.186.58 (talk) 14:53, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  [w] or [β]? 

message: Isn’t that sound only present in Sanskrit and pronounced like a ‘Sh’ in Hindi? Taimoorahmed11 (talk) 18:29, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct عُثمان (talk) 17:23, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  ʂ 

message: The Hindustani languages also has some words and or nouns with e (not eː) vowel like مراکش/मराकॆश/Marākeś and پشاور/पॆशावर/Peshawar but apparently it's not mentioned in Hindustani Phonology. Am I wrong or right in suggesting that the e vowel exists in Hindustani? Taimoorahmed11 (talk) 19:57, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: @Taimoorahmed11 You may be correct, however, I think its better to mention it here first (with a source if available) and explain here whether the short [e] occurs, word initially, medially or finally in contrast with the long [e:] (just like how this page and a footnote in the IPA Help page mention that the short [i] and [u] occur word-finally in contrast with the long [i:] and [u:]) before mentioning it in the Help:IPA/Hindi and Urdu because mentioning it there without any supporting mention in Hindustani phonology does create inconsistency with this page and confusion for readers which I assume is why Aeusoes1 has reverted your changes in Help:IPA/Hindi and Urdu. Broman178 (talk) 18:03, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: @Broman178 Point noted. I'll try and find some references but I doubt I will find any suitable references since I believe most of the studies are based on the Hindi/Urdu alphabet however there is no native diacritic (in either scripts) for non-prolonged e vowel neither are there many words with that sound. Nevertheless, I will try and find some references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Taimoorahmed11 (talk • contribs) 23:46, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  e Vowel in Phonology 

message: Notification:
I have opened a discussion about the notion of "shortened" tense vowels in Help talk:IPA/Hindi and Urdu#"Shortened" [a] / [i] / [u] which is also relevant for this article. –Austronesier (talk) 09:12, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Shortened" tense vowels 

message: Hi everyone, does anyone know if there are any diphthongs which occur in both Hindi & Urdu because I feel this article currently seems to be lacking on information as to whether or not diphthongs occur in Hindi & Urdu and if they are present, what are those diphthongs? I would be grateful if anyone who knows the Hindustani phonemes quite well, or who speaks Hindi or Urdu or even both languages can comment on this because if diphthongs are present in Hindi & Urdu, it needs to be mentioned in this article (with sources if available) or at least needs more clarification, many thanks. Broman178 (talk) 09:21, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The answer is simple: no and yes. No, if you only consider Urdu amd the standardized Hindi of Dehli. Yes, if you consider dialect interference and the way Standard Hindi is pronounced in the wider Hindi Belt. Corresponding to the standard open mid-vowels  and , you will often hear diphthongs  and  (Shapiro 2003, Kelkar 1968), which is the regular realization of these sounds especially in Eastern Hindi "dialects" such as :Awadhi. So speakers from variants with diphthongs will take them over even when speaking Standard Hindi. So we could mention the diphthongs as often heard non-standard variants of  and  in Hindi (but not in Urdu).–Austronesier (talk) 11:46, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your reply, it makes a lot more sense to me now. Broman178 (talk) 09:54, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diphthongs in Hindi & Urdu? 

message: The article's IPA chart specifies /ʋ/ as the labiodental consonant. Its postconsonantal allophony with [w] is explained well enough in the subsection "Allophony of [v] and [w]". I'm questioning how this subsection gives only [v] as the labiodental. You see, I came to this article following a link from the [v] article giving the word vrat̪ as an example (the same example given here). I was looking if fricative [v] could be found in any Indian languages. The example of vrat̪ appeared to be another positional allophone, this one triggered by word- or syllable-initial preconsonantal position. I was already aware that /ʋ/ is the Hindustani labiodental, so I would not expect to find [v] at all, unless provided for by allophonic rules. If /ʋ/ has two positional allophones, the article needs to make that clearer. Johanna-Hypatia (talk) 09:13, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Allophony of /ʋ/