Talk:Gender symbol

message: Can anyone refer to a web resource that proves the meaning as a gender symbol of the saggitarius and the earth symbols? I translated the articel into german (Gender-Symbol) but omitted these symbols for lack of any evidence. --Mosmas 14:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: March 2007

message: There is an even older symbol for gender and this symbol is commonly used in the social sciences. Triangle and Circle. Triangle stands for male and Circle stands for female. This is often seen in kinship charts (think anthropology).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.146.30.141 (talk) 06:01, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: i have seen similar symbols but with a square for male.Fantiquitous (talk) 14:55, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: These mainly appear in sociograms and genealogical charts, and would not be widely understood as standalone symbols... AnonMoos (talk) 15:51, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Triangle and Circle 

message: Could anyone direct me to a font that can display the symbols used on this article? Only Mars, Venus and Mercury are displayed correctly for me.Geemer (talk) 13:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Try http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/26A2/fontsupport.htm etc. -- AnonMoos (talk) 18:04, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you very much, the DejaVu fonts work like a charm. Geemer (talk) 15:34, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Font capable of displaying the symbols 

message: I seek a child symbol to go along with the female symbol and the male symbol.  If such a symbol exists, this article may document it.  --Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.28.185.40 (talk) 20:12, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't think there's one which is a variation of the gender symbols, but child variants of the "toilet" symbols are sometimes seen; see :File:Forest day 1 logo.jpg, :File:Yellow school sign.JPG, :File:Italian traffic signs - old - transito vietato ai pedoni.svg etc. AnonMoos (talk) 21:25, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. See also the Rudolf Koch gender and family symbols... AnonMoos (talk) 18:09, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Child Symbol 

message: why are the hermaphrodite and neuter symbols is in the LGBT section? i can understand the lesbian, gay and transgender symbols being there, but the hermaphrodite and neuter symbols are listed as biological symbols in places such as my funk & wagnalls standard desk dictionary. this seems to suggest that they are the official symbols, and apply to other organisms and plants, not specifically to the lgbt culture, as this article seems to suggest. also the neuter symbol does not display correctly on my screen. perhaps we'd be better off with pictures for all. (sorry, i have no idea why my addition keeps popping up in odd places) Fantiquitous (talk) 14:55, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The separation is practically non-existant in the article. Several scientific biological symbols are in the LGBT section. In fact, pretty much the entire article is in the LGBT section. This is probably the most important thing to fix about the article. However, I don't know where to look for sources documenting a symbol's use in biology or genetics. 89.217.88.231 (talk) 10:11, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The heading titles could be rationalized a little, but I don't know that there's a great divergence between LGBT and biological sciences meanings of most of the symbols (only a few symbols are used in both systems) -- except for ⚥ which has meanings in pop culture (not just LGBT) which are strongly divergent from its biology meanings... AnonMoos (talk) 19:44, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Biological vs. LGBT uses

message: anyone?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.199.45 (talk) 09:24, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The Greek deity Aphrodite was a female goddess of love and beauty, while Ares was a male god of war and valor.  "Venus" and "Mars" are the names of Latin deities who were identified with Aphrodite and Ares by a process of interpretatio Graeca. When the seven Classical "planets" (sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, saturn) were identified with gods and goddesses (partly under influence from Babylonian astronomy/astrology), Aphrodite/Venus was the most stereotypically feminine of the seven, and Ares/Mars the most stereotypically masculine, I guess.  Also, the planet mars was assigned to the element iron in alchemical symbolism, while the planet venus was assigned to the element copper -- and in classical antiquity, a prominent use of iron was in weapons of war, while a prominent use of copper was in bronze mirrors, again fitting in with quasi-stereotypical masculine/feminine distinctions... AnonMoos (talk) 16:26, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. Classical_planets_in_western_alchemy -- AnonMoos (talk) 22:34, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  what does male and female have to do with mars and venus?  

message: In all my gender studies, I have always seen the Mercury symbol used to represent hermaphrodites. This article is the first I have ever seen that says it is used for "virgin females." 71.91.58.31 (talk) 00:35, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea whether that's correct or not, but the claim is that it's used that way in certain scientific usages, not LGBT symbolism.  If you think this is dubious, add a  tag... AnonMoos (talk) 00:44, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hermaphrodite Symbol 

message: Might include some alternative symbols, or symbols from non-Western cultures: AnonMoos (talk) 18:16, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Put :File:LU-awilu Cuneiform.svg in the cuneiform male cell of the table, though it wasn't used as a male symbol in all the cases where :File:MUNUS-SAL-sinnishtu Cuneiform.svg was used as a female symbol... AnonMoos (talk) 21:40, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Assembled all the female and/or woman symbols into a single graphic: AnonMoos (talk) 19:44, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Another image including some lesser-known or less historically important female/woman symbols: AnonMoos (talk) 07:10, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Other gender/sex symbols

message: (Please excuse my poor english)
The two male and female symboles although giving a symbolic biological difference between male and female in their design (Forward arrow pointing up as a phallic symbol and female cross birth giving representation) also differentiate the male and female psychological differences:
MALE: Future-oriented
FEMALE: Grounded into the present.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.249.57.28 (talk) 10:18, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds semi-esoteric.  The more traditional interpretations are iron spear and bronze hand-mirror.  Do you have a Reliable source? -- AnonMoos (talk) 20:56, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  These are not only Biological Symbols but they also define the Male and Female psychological differences 

message: What's the connection that Volvo (car/truck manufacturer) is listed in the "See also" section? 88.202.32.87 (talk) 21:32, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It used a Mars symbol as its traditional logo -- presumably having more to do with the metal iron than with masculinity... AnonMoos (talk) 23:00, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks! I think the link goes to the wrong Volvo page, maybe it should go to this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_Cars which shows the logo and also discusses it. 88.202.32.87 (talk) 23:29, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Link would be more appropriate on Mars symbol article anyway... AnonMoos (talk) 16:04, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also: Volvo 

message: There appear to be numerous unreferenced statements in this article. I've added some citations for the scientific and historic usage. This reference could be of use, but I can't find a copy of it. Lewis, Nolan, DC. "The Sexual Significance of Ancient Chemical Symbols." Psychoanalytic Review 14.2 (1927): 200-206. I've only found one source that looks reliable for recent LGBT use for five of the symbols. Claims such as "It also means ‘other’ gender" etc. need to be sourced. --mikeu talk 17:58, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a summary of another academic paper ("The Origin of the Male and Female Symbols of Biology" by William T. Stearn. Taxon, Vol. 11, No. 4 (May, 1962), pp. 109-113) at http://info.umkc.edu/womenc/2013/06/25/what-do-our-gender-symbols-really-mean/ ... -- AnonMoos (talk) 07:18, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: Supposedly in pre-1850 rural schools in the United States, a sun symbol meant a boys' outhouse, while a crescent symbol meant a girls' outhouse. -- AnonMoos (talk) 08:35, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The source seems reasonable. The illustrations are by the modern author, though, so we can't use them directly, but it's still a good find. — kwami (talk) 04:15, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I only see one "illustration", a semi-nonsensical cartoon without the slightest aspirations to historicity.  In European symbolic art, if male and female were contrasted as sun and moon, the sun usually had alternating wavy and straight rays, but I have no idea how that would have translated to early 19th-century rural American outhouse-door carvers... AnonMoos (talk) 20:29, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll see what I can find. Very common to have no hole at all (ventilation being elsewhere), even in duplex outhouses, or to have a heart in the door. A few crescent and star (on a single door). — kwami (talk) 22:25, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: History of toilet symbols

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In the article, the author does mention where the symbols originated (Mars and Venus symbols), but I think that relating the symbols to the masculine and feminine ideals society has on the symbols would also be important to the article. For example, talking more about the connection between Mars with hard, red metal like iron and Venus with the soft metal that can turn green, copper. I think that the significance between the origin of the sign and its namesake are connected through sociological ideas about what a male and a female are, tough and soft.Sashaver82 (talk) 05:05, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: As stated several times above on this page, in classical antiquity, iron was prominently associated with weapons of war, while copper was prominently associated with bronze hand-mirrors, which had stereotypical masculine and feminine associations respectively... AnonMoos (talk) 06:04, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Symbolism in Symbols 

message: I deleted this section partly because it reads like someone's essay plan but mainly because it is based on a erroneous foundation that has persisted to this day despite being dismissed repeatedly over the past 200 years. These symbols do not refer to the 'shield and spear of Mars or Venus's looking glass', they are evolutions of the initial letters of the Greek names of the planets. For an explanation, see the New Scientist article by Dr. William Stearn. Consequently, the  citations supporting the material I deleted fail the wp:reliable source test. There is certainly a need for some material on the symbolism but this is not it. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:54, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, Stearn was very likely wrong about that. But it's off-topic for this article anyway, a content fork of the same speculations in the planetary symbols article, which are more up to date. — kwami (talk) 04:07, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted fundamentally erroneous section, "Symbols and stereotypes" 

message: What is the scientific name for these? I assume there are wikipages to them. Shouldn't this article hold links to them? e.g. https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/history-and-civilisation/2020/02/exploring-britains-landscapes-of-love-and-lust 
and Yoni. Thy, SvenAERTS (talk) 14:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The article calls them fertility symbols, not gender symbols. "Gender symbols" are a form of shorthand whereas these have far more extensive associations. But certainly worth listing in See Also if not already there. (Lingam and yoni are just Sanskrit names for penis and vulva). So not an obvious omission to my eye but others may disagree? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:14, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links to phallic male and female symbols like in Celtic and Scandinavian, and all over the world? 

message: We need to add the cis and trans gender signs to this article -- 15:28, 8 March 2021 71.195.245.66
:I'm not sure what those would be.  Flags would not be relevant to this article. AnonMoos (talk) 00:19, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The table already contains these. What extra is being sought? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:35, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  March 2021 

message: A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :⚧️. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 March 10#⚧️ until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 18:24, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Rd'd to LGBT symbols, along with half a dozen other rd's here, as that's where it's discussed. — kwami (talk) 03:50, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Good solution. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:31, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "⚧️" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: ...don't belong here and I deleted the para. It was a WP:FORK of planetary symbol and related articles. Also, the Stearns ref we had was dated and now known to be wrong: only Jupiter and Saturn are known to derive from abbreviations (zeta + stroke and kappa-rho + stroke, respectively). Mercury is universally thought to be a caduceus, and Mars very likely a spear and shield (early forms were just an arrow shape, maybe a spear but hard to tell what it was). Venus is unclear; a hand mirror is as good a guess as any, but we really don't know.
Also, Mars and Venus were not always iron and copper. In one early source, Mars was copper. Only gold, silver and lead for the Sun, Moon and Saturn are invariable in surviving mss. — kwami (talk) 03:48, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Comments I made in various places above about iron spears vs. bronze hand-mirrors were not really about the origins of the symbols, but how they were interpreted over long periods of time... AnonMoos 20:32, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I'd be interested in seeing more refs for the Venus symbol deriving from her necklace. So far I've only seen mention of that 1934 pub, which I haven't accessed yet. Looking at pix of the 2nd-c engraving, I can't say I see a necklace myself, though that might just be a problem with the image quality. — kwami (talk) 03:46, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins of planetary symbols 

message: Under the "Public toilets" section, an image of a Swiss public toilet is labeled "Biological gender symbols on a public toilet in Switzerland". Typically gender is seen as a social concept, and sex is biological. This is a minute detail but I suggest the removal of the word "biological" from the image's label to avoid any unnecessary confusion. 
Lumenfre (talk) 05:36, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: But they are biological symbols, and opposed to genealogical. We could change 'gender' to 'sex'. — kwami (talk) 09:02, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Unfortunately sex symbol is already taken.  --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 18:16, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

text: In my experience--because of the societal connection between sex and gender--the Mars and Venus symbols are interchangeable for either sex or gender. The latter point seems to be the consensus based on this article's title, so I think it makes sense that the "Biological" be omitted from the label and keep the rest the way it is. An article title change is a topic for another talk section.  Lumenfre (talk) 03:58, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potential contradiction  

message: — Assignment last updated by Jenjmo (talk) 17:42, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Culture

message: — Assignment last updated by Ktrachsel01 (talk) 01:07, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Graphic Design History