Talk:British expedition to Tibet

message: This page is being proposed to be moved to British invasion of Tibet (1904) to coincide with the 1950-1951 invasion of Tibet.  If there are any comments, please join us at Talk:Tibet#Tibet invasion or not discussion. Benjwong (talk) 21:30, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Page move

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message: British expedition to tibet 1904
Landon
Younghusband
Waddell
Worldwide Encyclopedia and Gazetteer, 1908
Encyclopedia Britannica, 1905
Graham Sandberg, 1904
Papers relating to Tibet, Issues 2-4
Saturday Review, 1904
Saturday Review, 1904
The Independent, 1904
Candler
Hedin, Trans-Himalya, Vol. 1
Hedin, Trans-Himalya, Vol. 1
The World Today, 1904
The World Today, 1904
Hearst's International, 1904
The Indian Medical Gazette, 1904
La Vérité sur le Congo, 1905
The Nation, 1904
Chambers Encyclopedia 1901
Chambers Encyclopedia 1901
Landon (archive.org)
http://library.uoregon.edu/ec/e-asia/read/opentibet.pdf
Papers relating to Tibet, Issue 1
Waddell, Lhasa and its Mysteries
Secondary source
http://books.google.com/books?id=Bwi-sUw5Z24C&pg=PA14&dq=guru+britain+enemies&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CdGtUNHsMoTT0wGA6ICICg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=guru%20britain%20enemies&f=false
Rajmaan (talk) 21:57, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Primary sources on the expedition 

message: added some unsourced passages a long time ago, which referred to a "Tibetan General at Yetung". Somebody later changed Yetung to Yadong County. But I still can't find any source for this. Does anybody know? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:34, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tibetan General at Yetung? 

message: Does the Charles Allen book Duel in the Snows, page 302, cited as note 50, actually quote Younghusband using that phrase, or does the author Allen use it editorially to characterize Younghusband's general attitude toward peoples of South and Central Asia? 
The way written in this page, it implies that Allen is quoting a phrase used by Younghusband. Possible, since the poem by Kipling from which it is taken was published 1897. Was Younghusband given to quoting Kipling? I think that this needs to be clarified, since to present it as a direct summation of Younghusband's views in a quote directly from the man when it is not is editorializing on the part of this article.
If, taken the second way, it is Charles Allen's choice to quote from Kipling as a way of characterizing his own [perhaps entirely correct] appraisal of Younghusband, that needs to be made clear.
It would still be jarring even at that, since contempt for Britain's subject peoples was not what Kipling intended by the phrase, and this is wholly clear when one reads the poem "recessional" even today. It is a call to Britons not to put too much faith in the worldly power of their empire and arms as compared to their faith in the Christian God, and is full of Biblical allusions including the division of the world into Jew and Gentile, with the former expanded to include all who have faith in said God's law [including Christians] and the latter to include all others, a fairly common Christian trope even at a time when Gentile was also used in a more secular way to distinguish all non-Jewish people in ethnic/cultural terms. This would all have been understood without reflection by his audience at the time.
In that context, he is casting his call to Britons in the same mold as a prophet would have called to the Israelites, to not be like those who are without the Law, the heathen hearts who place their faith solely in "reeking tube and iron shard" [guns and bayonets, more or less]. The most likely inference then as now is that he was comparing Israel's ancient enemies like the Assyrians to some of the peoples he deemed menacing in his own time, whom he might mean to at least metaphorically suggest had been corrupted by pagan values. The usual take is that he meant the Russians, or even more likely the Germans. The Russians were Britain's chief imperial rivals and in that era considered to be excessively authoritarian, violent and cruel even by period standards, to their subjects and others. [I do not necessarily accept this characterization, but various anti-Semitic pogroms and events in Russia's wars in the Balkans had reinforced this stereotype in the British media and popular mind.] The Germans, not yet necessarily seen as an enemy, might also have been on Kipling's mind just the same, and the "reeking tube and iron shard" reference is often taken to be an allusion to Bismarck's famous speech and policy of invoking "blood and iron" as the solution to international problems. And to the current Kaiser's increasingly bombastic mannerisms. 
The tl;dr would be: If Younghusband actually quoted Kipling to describe his perceived superiority over local peoples, then he mis-cited Kipling but at least it would be both an accurate quote from him and a correct depiction of his views. If it was Charles Allen quoting Kipling then that needs to be made clear, since Allen is the one mis-citing Kipling as a way to sum up what may be his correct appraisal of Younghusband. The distinctions are not trivial. Random noter (talk) 22:13, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the phrase was a reference to the Frontier tribes, but it is totally WP:UNDUE here. I removed it. I guess this page was written by some fan of Charles Allen. It needs to be rewritten entirely. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:52, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lesser breeds without the law 

message: The text of the original image is " La Conquête du Thibet: Entrevue d'officers anglais avec les Thibétains" which only refers to English officers and Tibetans. Please note that adding your own interpretation to an image is WP:OR. (In other words, you should self revert.) --RegentsPark (comment) 16:03, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The costumes of this people are clearly not Tibetan ones, as all photo and texts around the event (and this article) said, they encounter Ambans, Dalai-Lama already fleed in Mongolia and Beijing when they come. The short catching sentence at the back of a French satiric newspaper far from the event. The drawer were for sure there. Picture is in an illustrated adding of the newspaper  Popolon (talk) 17:42, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not going to push this but we should generally stick to what is stated in the source. If the caption says Tibetans, then that's what we should use. An alternative, if you're convinced that the caption is incorrect, would be to use a different image. RegentsPark (comment) 18:52, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps simply change it to read "British officers negotiating in Tibet" to avoid dispute? --Wengier (talk) 19:43, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is pretty obvious they are wearing Qing official headwear. IMO omitting the object is a good compromise here. Not sure I fully buy the assertion that we cannot deviate from original text due to OR. Should photo of "Mission Accomplished" banner say Iraq War was "accomplished?" Should picture of propaganda repeat propagandist position? --Voidvector (talk) 02:36, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: With images, we need to be careful what ethnicity we attach to people because we don't know who they were or were supposed to represent. For example, the current description (which is different from the French caption) says "Chinese ambans" but, even if the dress is consistent with what an Amban wore, we don't know whether the ethnicity of the person was Chinese or Tibetan. Needless to say, this is already wandering into fraught territory and it is best to be as precise as possible. I like the idea proposed by Wengier because it doesn't contain any conclusions of our own. RegentsPark (comment) 13:08, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I actually changed it to "Qing ambans" (from the earlier "Manchu ambans") because their ethnicity is not important here. But the fact that they were imperial officials, rather than Tibetan officials, is quite significant. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:44, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox image description 

message: given that Russia hated Britain at the time, who did they support? (China?) 31.104.16.148 (talk) 12:43, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russia 

message: The redirect Expedition to Tibet has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached.  Utopes (talk / cont) 05:00, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "[[:Expedition to Tibet]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]