Talk:Moldovan language/Archive 9

message: I did the following:
*Reverted the article to the last edit by Ronline;
*Remade the changes made by Vasile;
*Reinserted the paragraph removed by Vasile.
In this way the recent edits made by Node_ue have been canceled. As this is a controversial article I expect from now on that everyone will discuss things here first. Minor changes, such as spelling errors, can be made without prior discussion, but anything more than that has to reach consensus here.
I remind you that this is a talk page concerning the article. Keep any other discussions in their respective relevant places. Keep your personal attacks in any place you wish, except Wikipedia. And those of you who still haven't, grow up. --AdiJapan 19:17, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have reverted your edits. All of the claims I inserted were sourced. If you want to dispute the claims, take them up one by one. But you may not just remove them entirely. --Node 19:26, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You do not have sources for your edits. You did not have the others' agreement. You did not make the edits one by one. You don't even speak the damn language! Isn't this just about too much?! --AdiJapan 19:32, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I did give sources. Just check. I didn't have others agreement? I made comments here before my edits, and nobody challenged them. And I do speak the language, just not as well as do you, although that doesn't really matter -- what matters in writing a Wikipedia article is research, diligence, and dedication. Prior knowledge of a topic is good, too, but research and being able to give references for every statement is the standard to which we're supposed to adhere. And, your tone is starting to turn sour. Please don't start taking low blows like other users here have. --Node 19:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Revert to last edit by Ronline

message: I did have enough pacience with this guy but now I've seen that after 23 days since I didn't edit the page this guy is just making an revert war like this [] -- Bonaparte  talk & contribs 22:02, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As I noted to Constanteanu, my version is sourced. If you want to protest my changes, go ahead and protest them. But plain reversion isn't OK, especially since you've discarded many minor edits, for example wikifying. --Node 22:52, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You lie. All you did was this: revert war (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Moldovan_language&diff=30263059&oldid=30260615). Everybody left you. You're alone on your position.. You did not reached CONSENSUS. And we do have a very good version now!  :) -- Bonaparte  talk & contribs 22:57, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Uhh... what? How is that lying? I just said my version is sourced. It is. I gave sources for all of my changes. And in the last 24 hours, I have made no straight reverts -- each time I reverted, it was combined with minor changes. I'm certainly not alone on my position, the editors of the article language agree with me, as do all of the articles I've sourced in my version. And we don't have a very good version now thanks to you! :) --Node 23:01, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Enough is enough - Bonaparte is back again

message: How u quys can continue this behaviors??? It goes back and then it gos back again , and around like the wheel of a car.. u shuold not jut keep revverting, if u want 2 change smth, pls talk it here first insted of change change change back and forward and back against prior form!! u  just keep delet informations , deny peoples sources (complaned earlier here by user anittas,) ,and dont discoss it!!! so stop it now, if u remove nething from the page u shold add smth to .--80.58.51.106 23:29, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  how you quys can continue this behaviors??? 

message: Please for the last time. Stop changing stuff. Obviously everyone here is ok with Ronline's version. It is not us that have to discuss it here so stop turning the whole thing around. The only one against it is you.
Node ue if you revert something one more time without talking about it here then I am afraid I am going to have to go and invoke some higher authority and that will not make you look too good. What you are doing is outrageous. Anyone with a little bit of common sense can see that. 
You don't even say what is wrong with Ronline's version. You just go ahead and change it based on the fact that you provided sources. The changes proposed by me and Ronline do not conflict with your sources Node ue. The current version is just better written. I haven't even tackled the real issues yet. So what is the problem? Maybe if you would act in a constructive manner and post your disagreements here first, then we can get to the bottom of this. Otherwise we are never going to get anywhere. 
PS: Also, I just asked you to please put all your sources right here on the talk page so we call see them clearly right here. Constantzeanu 00:17, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Node's last edit did improve some of the English of the article. He will not be editing this article in the next 24 hours. So, please stop bashing him, and do something constructive. If the editors to this article cannot be constructive while Node is away, we shall know that fault is not with him. --Gareth Hughes 00:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Node ue 

message: I tried to find more analogies that roughly parallel the situation with Romanian and Moldovan, and I happened upon Malay and Indonesian.  I took a cue from these two language articles and implemented them by revising the first two introductory paragraphs. I am trying to make this part of the article work - so please work with me on this rather than reverting.
I also revised and reinstated many of Node's grammar connections. To anyone out there who is planning to revert - please don't do so wholesale. Revert what you find objectionable but leave the not-so-objectionable stuff like grammar edits out of the revert. There is no need to hurry, so please take the time in attempting to preserve the corrections while at the same time reverting what you find objectionable. Thank you. --Chris S. 02:37, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edits don't reflect the majority point of view since you deleted "they are identical". -- Bonaparte  talk & contribs 04:50, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Now, why did you go and revert the grammatical corrections? Is the majority POV to write articles in awkward English??? You know, it disappoints me that you go on and revert the articles like that.  Why don't you study some websites and linguistic books on the nature of all the linguistic terms I used in there? Try to work with me, not against me. I'm trying to do the same thing. --Chris S. 05:09, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

text: We will correct only the grammar and any other issue will be discussed here first. -- Bonaparte  talk & contribs 08:33, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: My edits

message: I do not understand why it was reverted to official name of the state language.  State language is basically synonimous with official language, so I do not understand the choice for a more lengthy name. --Chris S. 04:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is true that it may be POV to call it a language. However, it is not POV to report this particular point of view. First and foremost, when doing language articles it is important to say where it is the official language.  And Moldova's constitution does say that it is the official language, correct? I mean, it's absurd. There's the official name of the state language, but it leads me to wonder what the unofficial name is?  I should point out that state language automatically redirects to official language. The wording you choose is basically paraphrasing the same concept in order to obfuscate the issue at hand. --Chris S. 04:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Constantzeanu, the official name is indeed Moldovan. However, the official language is also Moldovan - that is an unbiased, NPOV report. You are saying the same thing, but in more words since official and state are the synonymous. Furthermore, I am willing to believe that you are unable to cite sources where Moldovan is frequently referred to as the "official name of the state language" - much more than "official language." Official language is as neutral as you can get. It would only be POV if it weren't actually so. For example, saying Visayan is the official language of the Philippines is POV, because it isn't. --Chris S. 05:00, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are still confusing things. The article would be POV if it would say that the official language is Moldovan. First of all this is a disputed statement. It just does not sound politically correct. The official name (as in official) of the language of the state is called Moldovan. De-facto it's just Romanian. That is NPOV. If you would like me to I can give you 1000 sourses that call the language "state language", not "Moldovan language", thus avoiding to call it either Moldovan or Romanian. I know it might be hard for someone that is only trying to understand the situation to fully comprehend what I am trying to say but please leave it as it is.Constantzeanu 05:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

text: They are identical. It doesn't matter how you call it as long as you recognize that are identical. You may call it as you wish on political reasons, but they are identical. The fact that 2/3 of the people recognized it that is romanian and only 1/3 people said that is "moldovan" explains a lot, isn't it so? How do you explain that it was once recognized offficially in consitution of Moldova that official language is romanian for several years? -- Bonaparte  talk & contribs 05:04, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I already mentioned they are identical. What are you talking about? To me it seems like you are merging the political and linguistic perspectives into one perspective, your own.  Official language, as you may or may not know, have nothing to do with linguistics. On the other hand, saying that one speech variety is virtually identical to another is based on linguistics. I have nothing to gain or lose on what to call Moldovan in the article, so please don't think I am a Moldovan nationalist or anti-Romanian or whatever. --Chris S. 05:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Chris, I'm from Moldova and everywhere either "limba de stat" or "limba romana" is used, in school there are no "limba moldoveneasca" courses, just "limba romana". 212.0.211.25 19:36, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I was referring to Bonaparte whose tone seemed to suggest that. --Chris S. 05:36, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official name of the state language 

message: I've reworked the second lead, here is a comparison of the two versions - my previous version and the current version. Which of these do you guys think is better?
Old                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 	New
The Moldovan language, in its official form, is considered by several experts to be identical to the Romanian language, an Eastern Romance language, except for an orthographic difference (see the Alphabet and spelling section), and that its status as a separate language is a political rather than linguistic one[2]. Some Moldovan linguists, however, dispute this claim[3]. A number of Moldovan government officials, as well as several government departments, consider Moldovan and Romanian to be the same language. There are, however, more differences in the spoken languages of Moldova and Romania, most significantly due to the influence of the Russian language in Moldova.	A significant number of experts consider standard Moldovan to be virtually identical to Romanian, an Eastern Romance language, save for some minor orthographic differences, and that its status as a separate language is a political rather than linguistic one. Some Moldovan linguists, however, dispute this claim. There are, however, more differences in the spoken languages of Moldova and Romania, most significantly due to the influence of the Russian language in Moldova. The matter of whether or not Moldovan is a separate language is a hotly-contested political issue in the Republic of Moldova.
Finally - Constantzeanu, why are you against the 1.2 million figure? Do you think it's too high? I think it's been sourced from an article in Gardianul, and I don't think it was Node who introduced it. Thanks,  Ronline ✉ 06:33, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have to disagree with the 1.2 figure as well, it's sort of high ;) See this link
In the world 26 million people speak romanian including those from Moldova. -- Bonaparte  talk & contribs 08:36, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, but this is about how many speakers of "Moldovan" (self-declared) there are. If we say "26 million", that's not accurate, because those speakers are Romanian, not Moldovan, speakers. I think what Constantzeanu meant was that there are less than 1.2 million Moldovan speakers, and that the census data was either preliminary and/or false (due to political pressure). This is probably true - if you were to ask people in a binary way "Do you speak Moldovan or Romanian?", you'd probably find that less than 1 million people in Moldova would answer Moldovan, if there is no pressure put on them.  Ronline ✉ 08:46, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newest reworking of second lead paragraph 

message: I will start continuing Adi's idea from above and continuing what I promise once when I first came editing this page. Like Adi said ("This article is about whether or not Moldovan is the same thing as Romanian, and also about how this language name came to be (history, politics)")I think at this point is good to see how actually was this process intiated. Who initiated, what were the causes, the geo-political factors and so on.
First I will refer only to 1812-1918 period.
The sociocultural frame of the functioning of the romanian language in Besserabia between 1812-1918)
The general remark is that linguistic situation from 1812-1918, with all the manifestation increasingly stronger of different types of bilingual, was a diglosic bilingualism situation. In other words to say: both languages getting in contact have obtained different social functions and uneven (not equal): "romanian, the language of the spoken majority people (named in socioliguistics primary language, vernacular or language B) it narrowed its functioning spheres until substitution, and russian (named secondary language, vehicular, official, priviledged or language A) have taken all the social functions of the first".
There are 5 stages of the evolution: I. 1812-1828 is the period of neutral or functional bilinguism, when near the romanian language in the sphere of public administration, education and culture, religious education begins to be pierce also russian. In the first years after the annexation it can be seen a loyal attitudes towards romanian language, to the tradition and customs of the romanians. Thus, are opened schools (in 1813 The Theological Seminar and in 1824 the lancaster schools), are translated in romanian the first grammar books, at the typography of Chişinău apear religious books.
II. 1828-1843 is the stage of the partial diglosic bilinguism: romanian language is forbidden in the sphere of administration and by its exclusionfrom the civil code. If the regulation from 1818 prefigured a russian-romanian billinguism more or less balanced, giving priviledge to "moldovan" , in 1828 it will be replaced by another regulation which will impose as official language only russian. Although in education romanian function only partial and only as a sepparate subject, apear also billingual manuals.(russain-romanian "Bucoavne", grammar book of Iacob Ghinculov). In the religious sphere romanian it is used only for sunday sermon, in editing religious books). After 1848 it will be taken out completely from the superior functioning sphere - that of the public adminstration.
III. 1843-1871 is the period of assimilation billinguism. Romanian language continue to function as subject in education, at the highschool Liceul Regional (until 1866) and to Seminarul Teologic (until 1867), and in regional schools until 1871, when is completely and for good forbidden by an official law.
IV. 1871-1905 is the stage of the official monolinguism: the unique official language admitted is russian. All the social shperes of the functioning are dominated by linguistic substitution, that means the romanian language being forbidden from all the fields, it will be substituted step by step by russian. 
Thus obtaining this status of "cinderalla", romanian will be used only at a coloquial level, familial. It is the period of the highest assimilation imperial russian politics and cultural of the romanians from Besserabia. The prist Pavel (Lebedev), "one of oppresor of the romanian language in province" dissposed in 1872 that "all the church (documents) from church to be written only in russian", and in 1882 by the decision of Sf. Sinod it is closed the typography from Chişinău.
 V. 1905-1917 is the period of the maximizing the linguistic and diglosic conflict: the two languages clearly different are confrounted, one as dominant and the other as dominated by all the points of view, (political,...etc). The linguistic conflict is manifestated by the rizing (awakening) of the national conscience, by the fight for national eliberation and defending of the romanian language 
In 1905-1906 the bessarabian zemstvels ask the introduction of the romanian language in school as "compulsory language" and "liberty to teach in matern language (romanian langauge)". The same time apears also the first newspaper and journals in romanian language: "Basarabia" (1906), "Viaţa Basarabiei" (1907), "Moldovanul" (1907), "Luminătorul" (1908), "Cuvînt moldovenesc" (1913), "Glasul Basarabiei" (1913). From 1913 the russian Sinod (russian church head) permits that in "the churches from Besserabia to be in romanian language".
I also need support and help to continue this. -- Bonaparte  talk 14:13, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes there are a plenty of them. After all, moldovan is only a political construction being identical with romanian. -- Bonaparte  talk 15:41, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done a copyedit on this section. I am not pushing any agenda but the creation of readable English. There are a number of sentences in the original that look like direct translation from Romanian, and make no sense in English grammar. I hope I've got it all right. If I have got anything wrong, it's because I couldn't understand the grammar of the original. I've split into subsections, as it seemed the easy thing to do. I think we might want to get rid of the section headings completely, and let the subsections sit as separate paragraphs in one section. I think WP:MOS suggests that we don't use links in section headings, so I've removed that. It is usual to spell Romanian, Moldovan and Russian always with capital letters in English, even when they are obviously adjectives. --Gareth Hughes 18:25, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  paragraph "Artificial evolution of [[romanian]] to "moldovan"" - any help is needed

message: Excuse me, but there is no artificial evolution of Romanian to Moldovean. The Moldavians, on both sides of the Prut, have always refered to themselves as Moldavians (Moldovean, Moldoveni). That identity has been there for centuries. The only difference is that the sane ones know that Moldavians are Romanians. --Anittas 18:40, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Is correct to say: "Artificial evolution of the Romanian language to so-called moldovan language". Moldovan language exist only as a political construction, that's all. The Moldovans from Romania says that they speak Romanian 'cause they're Romanians, not "moldovan langauge". -- Bonaparte  talk 18:53, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I find that section to be poorly written and controversal. A piece of text a quarter of the size would do the same job without catchy words like "artificial evolution" and "phases" etc. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 20:16, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Artificial evolution of romanian to moldovan 

message: Writing Moldovan Wikipedia in Cyrillic is outrageous. I would say it is actually related to this article, although not directly. Node_ue is a key person for mo.wp and what he's been trying to do with this article is to demonstrate that it is worth having a Moldovan Wikipedia. I've read several articles there--all you need for that is to speak Romanian and read Cyrillic--and I found that every single one of them was actually a transliteration of the corresponding Romanian Wikipedia article. I bet they use some simple software that does the transliteration for them--if they don't, they're stupid.
What I want to point out is our first paragraph, in which the Cyrillic writing of the language seems to say that Latin and Cyrillic scripts are somehow equivalent in Moldova:
:Moldovan (Latin alphabet: limba moldovenească, Cyrillic alphabet: лимба молдовеняскэ, sometimes translated into English as "Moldavian") is, according to the Moldovan constitution, the national language of the Republic of Moldova. It is also an official language of the disputed territory of Transnistria.
Well, they're not equivalent. Only Latin script is official. Cyrillic was imposed by the Soviets, and is now promoted by the authorities in the so-called Republic of Transnistria. We need to make a distinction between them, by saying something like
:Moldovan (limba moldovenească, formerly written in Cyrillic: лимба молдовеняскэ, sometimes translated into English as "Moldavian") is, according to the Moldovan constitution, the national language of the Republic of Moldova. It was also declared an official language of the disputed territory of Transnistria, where it is written in Cyrillic alphabet.
or something similar. --AdiJapan 04:07, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not agree with this change. It would be the very definition of POV to suggest that the language was formerly written in Cyrillic if it it still the official form in Transnistria. If it still written anywhere in Cyrillic as a standard, then you simply cannot say that. It is the first version that is neutral. No matter what we think about Transnistria, to write in an anti-Transnistrian or pro-Transnistrian way in POV. --Gareth Hughes 16:56, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Transnistria is a region of the Republic of Moldova. The official language in Moldova, as defined by its constitution, is the Moldovan language written in Latin script. That means Latin script is official in Transnistria too. The separatist authorities of Transnistria (not recognized as such by any country) chose to keep Cyrillic. Now, I did not remove the mention of the Cyrillic script from the first paragraph, I just explained where it is used. Is this POV? I certainly don't think so. --AdiJapan 17:14, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Recognise is a term of protocol; it does not mean that the place is not there. If the language is written  in Cyrillic in a school or office anywhere, then formerly is just wrong. The Cyrillic alphabet is still being used in Transnistria. Now, you could say that it shouldn't be used there. You could say that that place shouldn't exist in the form it does now. However, you cannot say the Cyrillic alphabet is no longer used. Can you see the point I'm making? A schoolchild living in Transnistria used Cyrillic today. Many would like him or her to have been able to use the Roman script, but that doesn't changed what happened in that classroom. --Gareth Hughes 17:27, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I see your point. So your comment is on the word formerly. What I meant was the former official name of the language. I'm afraid it's late (3am here) and I need some sleep before I can think of another wording. The fact remains that the two scripts have a very different status in Moldova, and the current wording is misleading. --AdiJapan 17:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cyrillic 

message: In this part I will continue what I began yesterday:
The Genesis of the collocation "limbă moldovenească" was imposed against the natural one "romanian". It is important that this is reffered to romanian. Thus, Şt. Margeală states that around 1827 that the aim of his book is to "offer the possibility to know the Russian language to the 800,000 Romanians, that are living in Besserabia.....as well as to the millions Romanians from the other part of Prut, also to the Russians that want to study the romanian language". 
In 1865 Ioan Doncev, editing a primer and a grammar of romanian language, affirms that the moldovan language it is also valaho-româno or romanian. Or, after this date, the collocation romanian language it appears only sporadically only in the correspondance of the educational authorities, in some laws and some verbal processes of the pedagocical Councils.
Step by step, it will be subtitute by "moldovan language", fact that will create favorable conditions of the later ideologies for inventing a "new"! eastern-romanic language. In this sense, the conculsion is clear: "glotonim romanian language was taken out of use for political reasons, fearing the separation of Besserabia from Russian Empire and its union to romanian principalities". Although, this similar afirmation, also referring to other historical period, we find also in Kl. Heitmann: "Theory of two languages - romanian and moldovan - served both at Moscow, as well as in Chişinău for combating the nationalistic veleities from Republic of Moldova, being in fact, an action against romanian nationalism".(Heitmann, 1965).
It was demonstrated that the objective of the tsarist glotopolitics in Besserabia was dialectization of the romanian language. The tsarist government proposed itself the "inventing" of a dialect neared to the russian language. There is a fragment from the letter of A. Arţimovici, the leader of the education of department of Odessa, from 11 februarie 1863, to Minister of Public Instructions that states: "I have the opinion that it will be hard to stop the romanian population from Besserabia to use the language of the neighbour principalities, where the compact romanian population will develope based on the latin elements, not good for slavic language. The governmental constraints, that follows in this case the aim to make a new dialect in Besserabia neared to slavic language, won't be, as it seen, by no use: we can't constrain the teachers to teach in a language that will soon be dead in Moldova and Walahia, i.e. for the masses of the main users, and also the parents will not will that their children to learn in a different language of that they speak currently " . Although some clerks, as Arţimovici, figured out that the creation of such different dialect different from romanian language spoken in United Principalities, most of them "in the aim of governmental decisions realization, called in a tendentious way the language of the majority "moldovan", even in the same context, where, has been used the romanian language expression".
-- Bonaparte  talk 17:12, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Part II - Artificial creation of Moldovan language - any help is welcome!