Talk:Baritone

message: Constructive suggestions and discussion welcome! The contents of this page are for ongoing discussions. For past discussions please see the archives.
someone added the hunk-a-man baritone which is obviously a joke  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.139.96 (talk) 20:23, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Welcome to the Baritone discussion page

message: The baritone articles have been anomalous - they haven't followed the format of other voice articles. 
I propose to move the section called "Baritone roles in opera" from the article List of baritone roles) to here (removing roles already covered in this article) to be called "Other baritone roles in opera". Meanwhile I propose to rename List of baritone roles as "List of baritone roles in musicals", in line with other similar lists. 
After moving the list I suggest we then cull those roles which are not useful as examples.
Here is the list (with duplicates removed)
[List now moved to article page]
--Kleinzach (talk) 08:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reorganizing the baritone articles

message: This IP keeps inserting the name  Sir Desmond Hayes-Lynge (apparently a resident of King's Lynn in England) in the list of Austrian/German lieder singers? Why? -- Kleinzach (talk) 14:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 212.22.3.17 vandalism?

message: SORRY FOR THE EXTRA BLAB, BUT THE PART THAT MENTIONS "WAKONDA'S DREAM" IS NOT RELEVANT. IT IS NOT A WELL-KNOWN, IMPORTANT WORK IN THE STANDARD REPERTOIRE AND THEREFORE IS NOT A DECENT DESCRIPTION FOR THOSE LOOKING FOR COMPARISON OF ROLES. PLEASE REMOVE IT.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.10.132.32 (talk) 23:03, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Wakonda's Dream?

message: should include examples of uses of a baritone voice that is not typical of the music style it is in. Obviously examples of barbershop and bluegrass are too many, but there are some rock uses:
*Joy Division, and it's modern clone Interpol.. post punk / prog rock
*Beat Happening
Nnnudibranch (talk) 20:42, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non Opera Uses section  

message: Frequently when talking about voice parts, especially baritone, tone is a factor, many basses can hit F4 in their chest voice but it frequently sound strained, likewise tenors can often push for the low bari notes but again with poor tonal results, a baritone can hit notes that are high for basses and low for tenors without straining their voice, it doesn't matter if you have a 5 octave range if 3 of those 5 octaves sound like a dying bird.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.135.86.151 (talk) 22:53, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  A different perspective 

message: I invite everyone to join this discussion on the voice type talk page. Past consensus has been to not include a list of such roles but perhaps this topic should be re-adressed. This topic involves all voice types as there has been a strong attempt to try and make each voice type page similar in content and format. Nrswanson (talk) 22:32, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Including a list of musical roles

message: Classification suggests that baritones are like birds: either baritone A is a robin or a swallow or an eagle etc. There's a lot of overlap between these genres—naturally so, as every voice is different. I note that one of our examples of a Baryton Martin, Simon Keenlyside, has sung roles that appear in five in our different classes, and will soon sing one from a sixth: Pelleas, Orfeo (Baryton Martin) Figaro, Belcore (Bel Canto Baritone) Gugliemo, Marcello (Lyric Baritone) Don Giovanni (Kavalierbariton) Ford, Rodrigo (Verdi Baritone) and Rigoletto (Dramatic Baritone) Maybe we need to play this ball with looser hands? almost-instinct 23:39, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No and yes. No in that the classification system is well defined with specific descriptions of voice types and roles associated with those particular voices. Of course their are various systems in use which can make it messy when thrown together as it is here. However (this is the yes part), I think the article should mention three things. First, that a singer's voice is in a constant state of change and that they may sing roles from one particular fach during a part of their career and then move into another area during another part of their career as the voice changes. Two, that some houses choose to make unconventional casting choices by casting a singer with a different vocal quality for a part than what is usually associated with that role. Three, that the classification system isn't meant to be too rigidly applied as every voice is unique and some voices will be able to span a wider array of repetoire than others with some singers being able to sing roles from several different voice categories. These are points mentioned in the voice type article and should be reiterated here.Nrswanson (talk) 10:06, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Classification 

message: This section reads: "Roles such as these tend not to rise above an F"—and then lists Rigoletto! "Sits on a top F" would be a more accurate description. A better example would be Jack Rance, except that Scarpia is already listed almost-instinct 09:52, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Dramatic Baritone

message: In the section Baritone voices in non-operatic music there is now a pointless, lengthy, and ever-growing list of alleged baritones. I say "alleged" because a random check shows that many of the linked articles never even mention that the singer is a baritone, and even in the ones that do mention it, virtually none have any references to support that contention. These kinds of lists, once they get started, are simply magnets for "drive-by" edits that contribute nothing to the article or the reader's understanding of the term. Worse, this list has the potential to become even more enormous, given that the baritone voice is the most common male voice, and given the number of pop/rock/jazz/etc. singers who have articles on Wikipedia. If nothing else, these names should be hived off to a separate list linked from this article, and where there is no evidence whatsoever that a particular singer is a baritone, their name should be removed until it's provided. Voceditenore (talk) 18:04, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: See below. Voceditenore (talk) 12:22, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

text: All non-classical baritones have been moved to List of baritones in non-classical music. So the point is moot here. But no, we don't need 50 references, only 1 per person. Wikipedia is based on published information from reliable sources, not what individual editors hear or think they hear. Voceditenore (talk) 18:39, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Baritone voices in non-operatic music

message: I have now referenced those singers where a reliable source can be found to support the assertion that they are baritones. The remainder have been tagged . If inline citations are not provided for those singers within 48 hours, they will be removed to the talk page. The citation must be to a Wikipedia:Reliable source and please note that per Wikipedia:Verifiability, a Wikipedia article is not a verifiable, reliable source. Any additions or re-additions to this list without an inline citation will be immediately removed. 
I have already removed several names: Andy Williams, who has a tenor voice ; and Richard Gere, Dennis Haysbert, and Seth MacFarlane who do not perform as singers. This article is about the baritone singing voice, not the speaking voice. I have left for the moment: John Barrowman, Tim Curry, Jesse L. Martin and  Jeremy Irons, all of whom have performed as singers. However, they are now marked with  and will likewise be removed if an inline citation is not provided which verfies that they have a baritone singing voice. There is no place in this article for original research, unverifiable claims, and drive-by edits. Voceditenore (talk) 12:21, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: He's not in this article because he is not a classical baritone. If their is a reliable source for him being a baritone then he belongs at List of baritones in non-classical music. Voceditenore (talk) 18:43, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editors, please read: Non-operatic baritone list clean-up 

message: In the list of baritone roles in opera, it lists Don Alfonso in Cosi fan Tutte and Leporello in Don Giovanni. These are not baritone roles. They are bass roles. Mozart just like to give his basses alot of high notes.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.152.189.93 (talk) 21:49, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not Baritone Roles 

message: I suggest reading Richard Miller's book "Securing Baritone, Bass-Baritone, and Bass voices. It is quite useful. The Bel Canto baritone is not actually a voice type. Any well-trained lyric Baritone should be expected to have adequate coloratura skill.  And, furthermore, those who wrote roles for lyric baritone, i.e. Rossini, included coloratura. Bottom line, the so called "Bel Canto Baritone" is a Lyric Baritone, and does not need it's own section. To further my point, the two examples listed were a Bass-Baritone and a Basso Profondo, respectively. This bring me my next point. Somebody needs to review the examples for each voice type. Also, the descriptions are generally sorely inaccurate, especially those of the Verdi and Dramatic Baritone; however, I have fixed those two and done some work on the rest. Also, somebody should include information regarding the respective passaggios of the voice types. I know this information; however, I do not have time to write it down right now. Also, somebody should make a section about overlap between the voice types and roles, etc. Because, in all reality, a Baritone is either lyric or dramatic, depending if their passaggios are on B/E or Bb/Eb, respectively. The rest is based on timbre, which is somewhat subjective, and is usually ignored to an extent. However, both lyric and dramatic Baritones will sing roles from both sets of repertoire. For example, Fischer-Dieskau, who is as lyric as it gets, sang Rigoletto. Also, Bastianini sang Figaro. Case in point. I've tried to convey some of this information when editing the descriptions; however, I think that we need to rethink the entire structure of this article. There is a lot of information that needs to be added or expanded upon; however, I am not sure how to do this without bogging down the article. Also, there needs to be some explanation of basic, classical vocal pedagogy, otherwise the layperson will never understand this entry. Bottom line, I think that the reason that we're having so much difficult here is because we have to turn an art into an exact science. Because, even if Miller tends to disagree, vocal classification is very much subjective, regardless of tessitura and passaggios. Anybody have any ideas as to how to include of the aforementioned information, or how to restructure the article? Also, for some reason, a lot of what's stated in the actual article conflicts with the information given in the subsequent descriptions of the specific categories of Baritone. Somebody should remedy this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.129.176 (talk • contribs) 06:07, 23 July 2009
:The article definitely needs improvement, and you make some very valid points. However, your edits were not helpful. By deleting the entire Bel Canto (coloratura) baritone section, you also deleted the "master reference" ('Baritone Arias' IPA Source Library. Retrieved 4 March 2008), causing all subsequent uses of the reference to produce this:. You also changed all the range notation so that the various assertions are no longer supported by that reference. I've now removed all instances of the reference as it no longer supports the content. In addition, you added various further unsourced comments, which without a reliable source now come across as personal opinion . This is not the way to improve the article. If you plan to continue editing this article, will you please:
:#reference all your statements
:#use edit summaries for each edit. In a series of 16 edits earlier today, you significantly changed the article, including deleting an entire section, with no edit summaries whatsoever.
:#thoroughly familiarise yourself with the content of Wikipedia:Citing sources, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:Manual of Style
:#sign your comments on the talk page and not remove signatures as you did here: . Please read Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines for further guidance.
:– Voceditenore (talk) 08:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Bel-Canto Baritone is not a Voice Type, among other issues 

message: Yeah. It says that in operatic repertoire, the baritone range extends to B-flat above middle C. While there are indeed baritones who go up very high, and I believe there may be some Verdi stuff in that range, I would hesitate to consider that a common designation for opera. Parts that go up that high aren't particularly common. As it was previously, with "G2-G4, but can be extended at either end" is a much more fitting description, I think.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.152.189.93 (talk) 00:33, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  B-flat about middle C 

message: I'm wondering why in bass-baritone there is a list of known musical theatre roles for that voice type but there is not such a list for this page.
It's useful information for people who have been cast as certain parts and want to know where they fall under, baritone or bass-baritone. --The Wing Dude, Musical Extraordinaire (talk) 04:24, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been discussed previously as a no go on voice type articles as many musical composers don't specify voice types in scores and casting practices vary widely. It's essentially WP:Original Research to create such lists. It's easier with operas because we do have the benefit of numerous publications discussing roles from the perspective of voice typing. Best.4meter4 (talk) 09:06, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Musicals??? 

message: This article needs to be expanded to include prominent baritones of the 21st century. SpiritedMichelle (talk) 01:57, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi SpiritedMichelle. The article is about the voice type. Not a list of "prominent" baritones, which is potentially endless and a subjective judgement. We took the decision a while back to eliminate the name lists of "prominent singers" from all the voice type articles. See this discussion in the WikiProject Opera archives. List of operatic baritones might be a useful addition to create, provided it contained more information than :Category:Operatic baritones, e.g. listing by century with brief descriptions for each entry, and you don't mind it growing huge. Everyone thinks "their" baritone (or in some cases the baritone himself thinks) they're prominent. Voceditenore (talk) 06:25, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  21st Century 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I have just edited this section. Much of it was unsourced and some of it was self-contradictory. Prior to my edits, the text awkwardly indicated that the lyric bass-baritone voice is higher than the dramatic bass-baritone voice; however, the voice ranges set forth for lyric bass-baritones and dramatic bass-baritones were identical, which made the text self-contradictory. To make matters worse, neither of the two voice ranges was sourced. I found a source that set forth a bass-baritone vocal range, added that information, and removed the unsourced and self-contradictory information about lyric and dramatic bass-baritone ranges. SunCrow (talk) 04:27, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bass-baritone section 

message: Currently, the article states:
* Choral: "Composers typically write music for this voice in the range from the second F below middle C to the F above middle C (i.e. F2–F4) in choral music"
* Opera: "from the second G below middle C to the G above middle C (G2 to G4) in operatic music"
Some sources:
:Opera:
** [https://operavision.eu/en/library/features/summer-hits-baritone-and-bass Operavision.eu - "baritone vocal range extends from the A two octaves below middle C to the A above middle C" 
** Opera America - "range that extends from the second G below middle C to the first G above middle C" - possibly copied from Wikipedia?
** NPR - "Talk Like an Opera Geek" - roughly the second A below middle C to the G above middle C
:General:
** New Harvard Dictionary of Music via Yale.edu - Baritone: G2-E4
** University of Southern Mississippi dissertation - second A below middle C to the G above middle C
And then there's Fach#Baritone_Fächer.  Would any subject matter experts care to weight in? The ranges in the article should be sourced, but it appears the range isn't universally agreed upon. OhNoitsJamie Talk 14:41, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: As with all ranges, even for most instruments, there are no definitive end points. This article, and related voice type articles, should be rewritten to reflect that. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:11, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources for defining range

message: The source for the whole section originates from a blogpost from 2011: - Link 
However, I consider this to be a high quality blog post, since it states the information in an objective manner, therefore I suggest to use this as a citation nonetheless. - Ahossai (talk) 07:59, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourcing Kavalierbariton 

message: See Talk:Bass_(voice_type)#Potential edit warring on the voice types articles. Kuulopuhe (talk) 13:33, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potential edit warring on the voice types articles