Talk:Coercive monopoly/Archive 1

message: DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page covers approximately the dates between 2005-02-02 and 2005-10-13.
Post replies to the Talk:Coercive monopoly, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Coercive monopoly/archive02. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. -- BBlackmoor (talk) 16:34, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

message: What is the informative purpose of this article as distinct from government-granted monopoly?
Virtually all forms of coercive monopoly studied by economists are government-granted monopolies, and the majority of the text here is rehashing the discussion of government-granted monopoly elsewhere. You could make a case that it's possible for economically interesting coercive monopolies to exist without being government-granted monopolies (e.g., Mafia rackets), but most of the article is not about that.
Is there some reason to keep the information duplicated and balkanized like this? If not, I'd advise that we move about 2/3 of this article to the article on government-granted monopoly, integrate it with the existing text there, and have coercive monopoly stand as a page to (1) define a coercive monopoly generally, (2) link to government-granted monopoly as one of the most important types of coercive monopoly, (3) mention that there are a limited number of non-government-granted coercive monopolies, and possibly (4) talk a bit about the distinction between natural and coercive monopolies in broad outline.
Does this sound like a plan? Let me know what y'all think. Radgeek 07:21, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's ok for some things to be "rehashed" on different articles, especially, when it's the wording isn't exactly the same. A coercive monopoly would include not only government-granted monopoly, but also government monopoly. Some would say some completely private situations are coercive monopolies too ...and example of that might be Microsoft..it's an arguable point especially given that a judge said they engaged in anticompetitive behavior. Free market advocates would say that the behavior wasn't anticompetitive but highly competitive. Feel free to modify this article or add to it, but as far as the content that's already in it, I feel pretty much everything there now is essential. I would put the content back in if it was deleted. RJII 18:05, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Purpose of this article as distinct from [[government-granted monopoly]]?

message: This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Splashtalk 01:27, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Articles for Deletion debate

message: One conclusion from the AfD debate was to rewrite the article to clarify usage. I have done so, based on the external sources provided (those that were relevant; those that weren't I removed). I removed the mention of rackets, as the external sources may clear that this is usually excluded (probably always, but I've hedged my bets with a brief mention). I have removed the discussion of monopoly types, which unnecessarily duplicated the relevant articles, as well as the discussion of government legitimacy. This should take place elsewhere, not on an article on a term as obscure as this is. If anyone wants to move that discussion somewhere more helpful, the previous version can be found here. Rd232 11:54, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for dumbing down the article. It much more informative before your so-called "rewrite." Reverting back to previous version. RJII 13:21, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've raised an RFC to see whether others agree that this is "dumbing down". Rd232 15:42, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You've deleted everything in the article that took a lot of effort from various people to create and replaced it with a couple quoted definitions. I don't want to call it vandalism, but it's close. RJII 15:50, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Absurd. The definition in your version is wrong, as I showed on the basis of quotes from the existing external links alone. Duplication of monopoly types discussion serves no purpose I can see - there are separate articles for that. (If necessary, move material there.) And as I said, the general discussion under Political Debates does not, I believe, belong here - and I have problems with its style (and lack of sourcing) as well; it reads too much like personal essay. Furthermore, the "a lot of effort" point is an example of the sunk cost fallacy - when you're in a hole, you stop digging; you don't say "well we've come this far - China can't be far off". Rd232 20:59, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Concur with Absurd.  It's better to start with Rd232's version, and add back the few points which are (1) accurate, (2) NPOV, and (3) not better stated and left in the other articles.  (For what it's worth, I consider myself a Libertarian, although not an Objectivist.) As for my comment about it being a neologism in the AfD -- the definition as a alias for government monopoly, including government-granted monopoly is standard.  The one proposed by RJII is a neologism, as far as I can tell, even if an old one.  -- Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:33, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The proposed defition from R2d2 is wrong. A coercive monopoly is not defined as a government-monopoly or government-granted monopoly. What you see from the theorists is the opinion that coercive monopoly can only arise out of government intervention. It is not defined as a monopoly being maintained by government intervention. A coercive monopoly is a monopoly immune from the law of supply and demand. So, the definition that's there now is not precise, but it's very wrong to say that coercive monopoly is defined as government-assisted monopoly. That's not the case. RJII 17:40, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:   Cite? You hadn't given one in your references, as far as I can tell. And -- I can't rewrite it without it appearing to be a reversion, so I'll add what I believe to be the correct NPOV tag.  It would be vandalism to remove it, until a concensus is obtained. Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: R2d2 provided citations. But, he's misinterpreting them. Look how Greenpan defines it, for example. I just modified the definition. RJII 17:55, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What part of this, from Nathaniel Branden, am I misinterpreting? "When people speak in an economic or political context, of the dangers and evils of monopoly, what they mean is a coercive monopoly—that is; exclusive control of a given field of production which is closed to and exempt from competition, so that those controlling the field are able to set arbitrary production policies and charge arbitrary prices, independent of the market, immune from the law of supply and demand. Such a monopoly, it is important to note, entails more than the absence of competition; it entails the impossibility of competition. [my emphasis] That is a coercive monopoly’s characteristic attribute-and is essential to any condemnation of such a monopoly. In the whole history of capitalism, no one has been able to establish a coercive monopoly by means of competition on a free market. There is only one way to forbid entry into a given field of production: by law. Every single coercive monopoly that exists or ever has existed—in the United States, in Europe or anywhere else in the world—was created and made possible only by an act of government: by special franchises, licenses, subsidies, by legislative actions which granted special privileges (not obtainable on a free market) to a man or a group of men, and forbade all others to enter that particular field."  Rd232 18:06, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Incidentally, the phrasing of Greenspan as quoted in my version looks like it's inspired by part of Branden's wording above. Rd232 18:06, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, look at Branden's definition. It's a firm that it immune from competition. Then he goes on to make the assertion that the only way that is possible is through government intervention. RJII 18:07, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And on what basis do you reject that assertion? Rd232 18:21, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean? I'm not rejecting or accepting that assertion. Certainly there are plenty of individuals who would reject it. RJII 18:47, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's hard not see your claim that you're "not rejecting or accepting that assertion" as disengenuous. In any case, if "there are plenty of individuals who would reject it" it will be easy for you to demonstrate a good reason for rejecting it. Rd232 22:47, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

text: You're missing the point, Rd232. In the passage you quote Branden very clearly defines "coercive monopoly" in terms of an economic characteristic (immunity from ordinary considerations of supply and demand due to the impossibility of competition). He then, separately, asserts that the only thing that can cause a coercive monopoly is government intervention. If you could demonstrate that a particular monopoly derives from means other than government intervention but is still maintained by a prohibition on competition, then you would have succeeded in showing that there is something meeting the definition of a "coercive monopoly" but not arising from government force. Some might point to, for example, mob rackets in the construction business or particular parts of the drug trade as historical examples of non-governmental coercive monopolies that Branden has overlooked. And you don't even have to agree to those concrete historical examples to recognize the possibility in principle. —Radgeek 19:15, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have three problems with this argument. (i) we have found no sources for somebody outside Wikipedia arguing it. It is in danger of looking like original research. (ii) we have fetishised a few quotes as a "definition" and excluded everything else our source authors say about the concept. (iii) focussing on the supposed definition, it follows from logic alone that a coercive monopoly requires government backing: the only way a company can be immune from market forces is if its income is independent of its market, i.e. if it can rely on government powers of taxation. No private company can conceivably be independent of market forces - why is this controversial? Rd232 21:15, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Agree with Absurd. Start with Rd232's version, then add statements which are (1) verifiable through credible published sources, (2) NPOV, and (3) relevant to this specific article. Frankly, if I'd know about the vote for deletion, I'd have voted to simply redirect this to Government-granted_monopoly. -- BBlackmoor (talk) 14:15, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Since some people have remarked on my comments page due to my earlier comments, I'd like to mention that I now no longer stand by what I said. There are some good reasons to edit this article--after reviewing the uses of the terms that I could find I think it's probably right to say that the term is mostly limited to libertarian economists and theorists, but quite mistaken to dismiss it as neologism and absolutely wrong to identify it exclusively with Objectivism--but there are not good reasons to redirect it to government-granted monopoly, because coercive monopolies (as the term is standardly used by libertarian economists) and government-granted monopolies are two different things; specifically, the latter is a proper subset of the former. Government-granted monopolies don't even cover the whole field of de jure monopolies (which include both monopolies granted to private agencies through licenses and franchises, and also government monopolies created through nationalization or exclusive authority given to government agencies). --Radgeek 19:15, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That is an excellent point, and I have since changed my mind, as well: I would now use coercive monopoly as a disambiguation page (as mentioned below, currently under the heading "Reliable published sources"), and redirect it to (among other things) coercive monopoly (economic). Then, on that page, there would be a concise definition followed by links to specific examples, such as government-granted monopoly and black market. -- BBlackmoor (talk) 19:28, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Radgeek, thanks for intervening. Here is the definition I'm proposing: "In economics, a coercive monopoly is a form of monopoly that is immune to competition, due to barriers to entry. As such, it is able to raise prices to any level preferable without provoking the appearance of competition. It is distinguished from a de facto (or "non-coercive") monopoly, which enjoys no such insulation from competitive forces."  That sums it up doesn't it? I disagree with the previous definition I supported which said it had to be the result of literal coercion; they don't define it that way. We can see that claimed coercive monopolies don't have to be the result of literal coercion, since subsidies are claimed to contribute. Even Microsoft is claimed to be one, with Judge Jackson saying that the contracts the engaged in amounted to coercion. Like you said, Rd232 is missing the point. The laissez-faire advocates are making an argument, not a definition. RJII 19:31, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite 

message: We need a way to include the definition I believe to be correct, as from Rd232, either in place of, or in addition to, that of RJII. (OOPS, forgot to sign.)  I cannot edit it without violating the rules on revert wars, because I would keep Rd232's version, and add a couple of paragraphs and a couple of links to paragraphs in other articles. Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:00, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't dispute that the definition that you're contesting is incorrect. I think it is incorrect. But, so is the definition R2d2 proposed. I have inserted a more correct definition. This is the way you fix an article. You edit. You don't wipe the whole thing out. RJII 18:04, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's worse.  Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:10, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Sigh. Lawrence Kudlow (whoever he is), in the article RJII cites, apparently does not know what a monopoly is, never mind a "coercive monopoly". He writes "coercive monopoly, i.e., one that price-gouges consumers by deliberately curtailing production", when it is basic economics that a monopoly is able to raise prices by curtailing production (and that it will be in its interests to do so). Kudlow fails Economics 101, so if it's that the best you've got, give up now. Rd232 18:15, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, you really are out of the loop aren't you?  Kudlow is a well-known economist. Apparently you don't keep up with the stock market or you'd see him frequently on CNBC. RJII 18:19, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What's more, Microsoft products are easy to use, reliable, flexible, adaptable and available to everybody.  He obviously hasn't used them.  (In other words, whether or not he's a reputable economist, his article has factual errors.)  Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:44, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Actually, looking at it again, he's probably just using it in a loose adjectival sense, i.e. meaning "a monopoly which is exercising its power over consumers to an extent that is socially deemed reprehensible", rather than in the technical sense which this article relates to. Clearly, exercising market power cannot be considered coercion in a sense relevant here (rackets). Rd232 18:36, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought he rang a vague bell. No wonder I don't watch CNBC when Lawrence Kudlow is on it. Rd232 18:39, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

text: He's using it in the dynamic sense. That is, what a firm does, or would be expected to due, if it was immune from market forces --if it was a coercive monopoly. RJII 19:29, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "a coercive monopoly, i.e., one that price-gouges consumers by deliberately curtailing production." - this monopoly, hypothetical or otherwise, is not immune from market forces - otherwise it wouldn't need to curtail production to increase price. The only way a company can be immune from market forces is if its income is independent of its market, i.e. if it can rely on government powers of taxation. QED. Rd232 23:16, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: By market forces, I mean competitive forces. The firm can raise prices without worrying about competition coming into meet the need for lower prices. To raise prices all it has to do is lower production. RJII 13:56, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A restatement of what a monopoly can do does not address the following: "The only way a company can be immune from market forces is if its income is independent of its market, i.e. if it can rely on government powers of taxation." Since this is the key part of Branden, Rand's and Greenspan's definition (my words, but an accurate restatement), please address it or concede the argument. Rd232 14:19, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That is an argument, not a definition. Branden clearly defines coercive monopoly: "When people speak in an economic or political context, of the dangers and evils of monopoly, what they mean is a coercive monopoly—that is; exclusive control of a given field of production which is closed to and exempt from competition, so that those controlling the field are able to set arbitrary production policies and charge arbitrary prices, independent of the market, immune from the law of supply and demand. Such a monopoly, it is important to note, entails more than the absence of competition; it entails the impossibility of competition. That is a coercive monopoly’s characteristic attribute-and is essential to any condemnation of such a monopoly." RJII 14:38, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Maybe this quote from Rand will help in understanding: "The alleged purpose of the Antitrust laws was to protect competition; that purpose was based on the socialistic fallacy that a free, unregulated market will inevitably lead to the establishment of coercive monopolies." As you can see, she does not define a coercive monopoly as being government-granted. It's merely the opinion of these individuals that a coercive monopoly is only possible through government intervention. Others would disagree. RJII 18:13, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Source? Context? (I can imagine "inevitably lead" could include the creation of government monopolies due to the negative social effects of an unconstrained free market.) Explanation over Branden, who clearly says the opposite of the above contextless quote? Rd232 18:32, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Are you accusing Rand of being a mainstream economist?  Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:20, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Rand is extremely mainstream. RJII 18:22, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: POV, and IMHO, wrong.  Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:24, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

text: You gave the sources.  Whether or not you understand them, is another matter.  Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:32, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You've misread Greenspan. Greenspan defines coercive monopoly as : "a business concern that can set its prices and production policies independent of the market, with immunity from competition, from the law of supply and demand." Then he goes on to opine that this can only be accomplished through government intervention. That assertion of how he believes a coercive monopoly comes about is not his definition of coercive monopoly. RJII 18:40, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  (Last comment for a few hours.)  You've misread Greenspan.  However, Younkins is quite clear that he defines coercive monopoly as one caused by government or quasi-government action.  Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:56, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You're making the same mistake I and others made when writing this article. A coercive monopoly doesn't necessarily have to engage in coercion. The confusion is understandable. RJII 19:01, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

text: "A coercive monopoly doesn't necessarily have to engage in coercion." - If you're going to make statements as gnomic as that, please explain them. Rd232 23:05, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, coercion is the initiation of force against others. Just because a firm has the ability to set prices in isolation from market forces doesn't mean it's engaging in coercion. Maybe some see price-gouging that would take place in such a situation as coercion. RJII 00:28, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Maybe some see...", "plenty of individuals who", "It seems common sense". This looks increasingly desperate. Rd232 07:43, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just speculating on why it's called a coercive monopoly. Your guess is as good as mine. Don't expect me to have all the answers. I probably would have named it "anti-competitive monopoly." RJII 14:00, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Younkins says that "a coercive monopoly cannot be established in a free economy..." He's not defining but arguing, since others argue that a coercive monopoly (others who, by the way, do not use the term "coercive monopoly" but use the term "natural monopoly" for example) is possible in an unregulated economy. RJII 19:36, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "others ... who ... do not use the term 'coercive monopoly' but use the term 'natural monopoly' for example [argue that a coercive monopoly] is possible in an unregulated economy." I wish I could remember the HTML for that really annoying thing that makes glowing yellow ants appear around text. As it is, I'll make do with bold. Rd232 23:05, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: I think I'm going to hold off on further comments for a few hours.  I'm not sure I can say anything more without violating WP:CIVIL, but RJII has already gone over the line by referring to Rd232 as R2d2.  Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:32, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. The definition of coercive monopoly cannot be understood in such an emotional state. RJII 18:41, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP:CIVIL 

message: If I ever write something as incoherent and irrelevant as the above, please shoot me. I'm sorry, I simply cannot reply to such nonsense, which so ignores everything that I have carefully laid out, without spattering it liberally with a great deal of insult. I will try again later. And the cheek to head a pointless re-assertion of your confused and self-contradictory position on one nitpicking aspect you've created out of thin air (that irrelevant dichotomy between definition and assertion) as "Better summary of the issue"! After all the effort I have put into trying to debate reasonably with you, I am literally trembling with anger here. Rd232 06:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Pity you. RJII 13:26, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

text: And, let me point out to everyone that the above user "Rd232" tried to have this article deleted through a vote and was unsuccessful. He has no authentic interest in the quality of this article. His whole intent is to get rid of it, and since he hasn't been able to do  that so far, he obviously wants to minimize it to irrelevance. He won't be successful. RJII 13:26, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I put it up for deletion on the strength of the article and the information I could find. The AfD produced some additional information, which with subsequent discussion shows that it does deserve a short entry. I changed my mind based on evidence - you might try it some time. I developed said short entry based on the available information, and ever since RJII has waffled contradictorily around the subject without adducing additional evidence to support his views. As for "minimizing to irrelevance", this is absurd. An entry that is short and to the point is far better than one that is long, vague, and fully of unsourced personal opinion around related topics. Rd232 16:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You came to admit in your vote for deletion that you hadn't even read the article. If that's not the sign of an incompetent and irresponsible Wikipedian, I don't know what is. This topic of "coercive monopoly" is fresh to you and you're flabbergasted by it, but that's no reason to wipe out the whole article and replace it with a few quotes. Obviously, you act without thinking and reading. RJII 18:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Since you will go on about this, I'll clarify. I had read the intro, skimmed the middle bit (lokked like irrelevant and confused guff) and looked at the external links, and skimmed those. I even Googled a bit. I saw nothing to change my opinion that the article was a neologism, and nominated it for AfD. At some point I took the time to read the guff properly, and I found it so bad that I made the remark you refer to ("I hadn't read the article"), because it makes up the bulk of the article. It was an unfortunate phrase, but there's no to repeatedly belabour the point. And oh yes, the AfD produced the Branden source, which is still the best we have on the economic concept of coercive monopoly - so it was hardly a waste of time. You might actually say it's how Wikipedia is supposed to work. (But then you've been here long enough that you should know this.) While we're on the subject, you've also been here long enough to know better than to accuse of me vandalism (in an edit summary) and of bad faith (repeatedly, here and elsewhere). Rd232 22:50, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply