Talk:Chatham, New Jersey

message: I have a question to ask our fellow anonymous user. When was the last time s/he set foot in chatham? currently the edits are being made from california. a lot of these edits reek of someone who's either nostalgic or out of touch with the area. i lived there permanently until just a year ago, and was there this last summer for 2 weeks. i can swallow the historical stuff because i simply don't know any facts to the contrary, but the contemporary definitions imposed by the user are simply false. no one calls the two chathams the chathams, and the library and school district have nothing to do with why they would name both towns as chatham. I mean seriously, where is this sentence coming from?
:Chatham, New Jersey, when mistakenly used to mean two joint governmental activities actually organized under the name "The Chathams," is thought by some to refer to a school system and a library system shared by two abutting Morris County, New Jersey municipalities:
um, what? chatham is used to say the land area covered by the two towns. if someone's referring to the governments, they'd actually make the point of clarifying which one they are talking about. otoh, if someone asks you where do you live?, the response is simply chatham, even if you live in the township. no one thinks that chatham, nj referse to the school system and library. that was just pulled out of the writer's butt. —lensovet–talk – 03:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The anon's edits are unsourced and pointless chauvinism. Chatham Borough was formed in 1897, doubtless out of the more long-settled parts of Chatham Township; but to claim that they have been separate settlements is unsourced error. I shall undertake to watch this page actively. Septentrionalis 20:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Authority? 

message: :::The rise of ignorance should be resisted, not encouraged. -- personal opinion:  Wikipedia ought to clarify things, not perpetuate errors and call it "modern use" (which is undocumented). I seek correction of errors you point out, to the contrary your stand seems similar to asserting that since some people state frequently that the moon is made of green cheese, this encyclopedia should accept it as "modern usage" rather than attempting to make a place where people can find accurate information. I have not seen you make a single attempt to research information -- but lots of bullying to make sure that your personal "understanding" is adopted. You are the one who changed existing pages and created redirects without any evidence of confusion. You are the one who altered other pages to defend your actions when objections were raised. Rather than reconsidering your actions or trying to develop consensus, you declared a victory and tried to squash the opposition. You are the one who insists that "borough" be stressed, even though that is a governmental entity -- and one that was introduced long after Chatham, New Jersey (the village or town) existed. That drives the issue -- you began by changing the title -- you then began to skew the focus the discussion, making it begin long after the beginning of the topic. Go to the library in town and ask for information about the founding of Chatham. You will be given an early 1700s date. Ask for the earliest date of the settlement that has seen continuous existence since that date. You will be given an early 1700s date... 
:::I quote: “The second newspaper started in New Jersey was also devoted to the American cause in the Revolution. This was the New Jersey Journal edited and printed by Shepard Kollock, who established it in Chatham in 1779.”; “Kollock essentially resigned his military position in order to start the newspaper in Chatham.”; “General Washington needed an organ to boost morale and gather support for the war effort in North Jersey…”; “Kollock's New Jersey Journal became that organ. Kollock's paper often received supplies for paper making from the army. Plus, his location in Chatham, near Washington's Morristown headquarters from 1779-80, gave him excellent access to breaking war news. His editing provided a strong voice for the Revolutionary cause.” ; “Here are the first ten New Jersey towns to establish a printing press, the year, and the printer. These and the following dates are courtesy of McMurtrie and Nelson.
::: 1.	Perth Amboy, 1723. William Bradford. 
::: 2.	Burlington, 1727. Samuel Keimer and Ben Franklin. 
::: 3.	Woodbridge, 1754. James Parker. 
::: 4.	Newark, 1776. Hugh Gaine. 
::: 5.	Trenton, 1778. Isaac Collins. 
::: 6.	Chatham, 1779. Shepard Kollock. 
::: 7.	New Brunswick, 1783. Shepard Kollock and Shelly Arnett. 
::: 8.	Morristown, 1784. David Cree. 
::: 9.	Elizabeth(town), 1785. Shepard Kollock. 
:::10.	Princeton, 1786. James Tod. ... 
:::source:  http://www.constantreader.org/printers/intro.html – a  website created as an independent study project as partial fulfillment of the Master of Library Service (MLS) degree at Rutgers University, New Brunswick, New Jersey. 
:::And further, “FIRST settled in the 1720s along the Indian Minisink Trail, where the Leni Lenapes forded the Passaic River, the Morris County Borough of Chatham thrives in its rich past. Main Street, which follows that trail, still has black cast-iron fire hydrants with the date 1889 in raised numbers..." source: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9400E0DF1E3EF934A25757C0A962958260 Please note that the New York Times reporter had no "modern use" problem in 1994, with the town and the township being thought of as one, in this recent article, distinctly identifying the borough as the community that was settled in 1720 and referring to it in his column entitled, If You're Thinking of Living In / and which is then focused upon as, Chatham; Rich Past, Bustling but Homey Present. That seems to be pretty synonymous (your term) reading the title and the text. Now when was the township founded again? 1806, you assert in this article and you also assert that the borough followed in 1897. How many years separate 1720 from 1897? One Hundred and seventy-seven years that you want to see dismissed! I show that history demonstrates that Chatham, New Jersey -- as a place -- has nothing to do with the form of government and an article on the place ought to be historically correct. Take the borough (that you inserted in an existing article) out of the new title of the article and none of the hoop jumping is necessary. I think you will find that Chatham residents cherish their history and have no interest in dumping a couple hundred years of their history in exchange for a "modern use" of faulty understanding. Chatham, New Jersey now leads directly to an "ambiguation" page in my humble opinion -- and I believe I have a right to object under the rules of Wikipedia, to what I see as an error without being bullied. Try to be the best you can! ----
:first off, keep everything in one place, i.e. here. second, leave comments in chronological order. lastly, everyone can see that the moon is not made of green cheese – please stop wasting our time with ridiculous comparisons. again, your quoting of the NYTimes is only further proving my point – that article is over 12 years old. that is NOT by any means modern, things change a lot in 12 years. hell, things change over the course over just one year, i can attest to that personally. what i am proposing is a modern, current usage. what you are proposing is some sort of "in denial" view that wants to hold on to the borough's "coveted" status as being the Chatham. stop it, please. no one is denying any history. what's more, the history that you speak of can easily go into the Chatham, NJ article.  but yet again, it is ludicrous to say that Chatham is the borough, because it simply isn't. chatham, in modern usage, makes no distinction between the two municipalities. for example, if i ask a chatham resident (of either town) where the library is, the answer that comes back is not Chatham, it is the borough. —lensovet–talk – 00:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Documenting history can correct mistaken, supposed "modern use" 

message: How do we find out the city name?
This might seem silly, but how do we determine a city's name? In the process of a discussion at Talk:Chatham Borough, New Jersey, an anonymous user as well as a respected editor dismissed Census bureau data as incorrect. Alansohn then suggested that references by the municipality to itself [would be relevant]; the anonymous user retorted with The name of the government is not the name of the town.
So...how do we resolve this? Thanks. —lensovet–talk – 03:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  interesting discussion elsewhere 

message: fyi, i will address your argumentation issues about st. petersburg when i get finished doing more important things. as for the personal attacks (this time, you're attacking the fact that i lived in an apartment instead of a house – this is pertinent to the current discussion how?), as soon as you make one more similar comment, you're getting reported. —lensovet–talk – 01:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  sick and tired of this crap 

message: Instead of brutally suppressing someone who is trying to set things right for the benefit of Wikipedia (as I read it), simple research of the historical records can confirm that: 
1. the village now called Chatham existed first as a village in New Netherlands at a place the native Indians traditionally crossed the Fishawack (river) at a low spot in the Watchung mountains, the village went through several changes in name,  
2. then as a village in the British colony called New Jersey (when the village was finally renamed "Chatham"), being Chatham, New Jersey 
3. then as a village in the new American state still called Chatham, New Jersey, 
4. then as a village in a new township government (formed in Morris County as Chatham Township New Jersey), still called Chatham, New Jersey,
5. then as a village seceded to independent governance again, and still called Chatham, New Jersey
6. then as a village with a borough form of government, and still called Chatham, New Jersey
It is all the same place, containing the same families and citizens (three generations for my family). All one has to do to confirm the facts is to consult the historical records: 
Fishawack Papers - 
A Collection of Papers on 
the History of Chatham, New Jersey
http://www.chatham-library.org/histlit.html
This village has been in continuous existence all of this time and deserves an accurate history similar to all of the other colonial communities discussed in the encyclopedia. Its citizens played a significant role in the war for independence from Britain just as its citizens played a significant role in saving the Great Swamp. Chatham is quite separate from Chatham Township, which has never had a village (having lost the three ones it contained when incorporated to govern them), and from which government Chatham seceded over a hundred years ago. 
The way I see it, there should be two articles, Chatham, New Jersey and  Chatham Township, New Jersey -- reflecting the two separate municipalities -- one a village, the other not. Stop creating a muddle yourselves and then shouting -- look it is a muddle! 
Wikipedia is never going to gain respect as a valid source of information until it demands reliance upon accurate information and freedom from purely personal preferences of editors being supported by administrators -- at the expense of the Wikipedia philosophy.
Blocking the contributions of all normally welcomed users to protect one editor with a weird agenda stinks – and has prompted me to say that publicly – it really does not matter that he has made many contributions elsewhere that may not be biased, this one is and his baiting of the others (and it looks like several to me) making contributions has led to a breakdown in civility. Is that surprising? Is the best solution to protect his edits? I think not. Is there any effort to make that editor civil? I think you have empowered him to be more uncivil and to go alter other articles just to fit his agenda.  He admits that he has no idea of the history he is deleting and makes no effort to seek the correct information which is available readily. Yet Wikipedia administrators (the worst part of this in my opinion) see fit to lock out other contributors – to what purpose and with what justification?  Plenty of people are reading this chronicle and discussing it – most I hear, say that this epitomizes the problem with Wikipedia when it gets off track. Most do not want to get involved. I finally had to comment, at least once.
:Excuse me, you were the first to become uncivil, using my personal history to throw sideways attacks at me. Again, village or not, "Chatham", in modern usage does not mean Chatham Borough. How many times do I have to repeat this? Again, when was the last time you set foot in Chatham, either one of them? —lensovet–talk – 20:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History easily confirmed and Wikipedia hurt by blocking 

message: No 2000 census data? -- Toytoy 13:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demographics? 

message: Chatham Borough does not get to decide whether or not it shares postal services or a zip code with Chatham Township.  That decision is made by the USPS.   Please create an account an sign your postings rather than continue to prop up the borough in violation of WP:NEU.  Jeffcutter (talk) 04:19, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shared Services 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: Are there really no notable natives of Chatham, New Jersey?  I find that hard to believe.  Anyone care to compile a list? Jersey Jan (talk) 01:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable People