Talk:Oriental metal

message: 1) Is Doomdeath a genre? if its important enough to link to, or even be used, shouldn't it be defined? 2) The entire last paragraph on Orphoned Land should be in its own entry, linked from the Oriental metal article. 3) is Oriental metal big enough to deserve its own article? I'm a metal fan but i've never even heard of doomdeath (although i have heard Hassidic speed metal) i've never heard of it as a genre. Crackshoe 18:09, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Is Doomdeath a genre?

message: ===Kenitra===
kenitra (the small Arabic bridge) was founded in 1997 in Martigny
(Were worth) by:       Jalal Marhani composer-songwriter and guitarist of the group.       Surrounded by Yves Roulin in the rhythmic guitar and Yvan Monnet with
the battery, the group started to repeat.       The music of will kenitra is in a style which its musicians enjoy to call > MetalOrientalprog< from the fact that it is the result of the mixture of
Progressive Metal and the Eastern influences which bring to him its
type-setter thanks to his origins.
      After one year of good and faithful services, Yvan Monnet leaves for
new horizons leaving the group without beater, with a box at rate/rhythm
programme. Good beaters being always as much difficult to find under our
latitude, the box at rate/rhythm will function during one year and half.
      The répét's continue however and will kenitra is joined during 1999 by
Emanuel Pot with the battery, and Julien Dulex with low. Three months of
intensive work later, the group produces a first model of 10 instrumental
titles to the Colchique studio in Monthey (Were worth).
      2000 ran out, the cruising speed seemed reached and all went for best
for the group when a drama arrived. An animal of the family of the rodents
tackling the electric system, caused a fire which destroyed all the
building, as all the material of the group which was in its room.
      At the beginning of 2001, the heavy heart, Jalal Marhani decides to
leave to Morocco to record violins and typically Eastern percussions there
in order to polish its style. On its return in Switzerland, it meets the
centre piece of its group: Reda Redjati, Oriental singer residing at
Katmandu (Népal). They decide the setting-up of a project a collaboration.
      Medium 2001, Jalal Marhani moves in Bex (Vaud) where it finds a room
adapted to the installation of a project of studio of recording.
      During this time, the manager of the group approaches the owner of
Montain Studio in Montreux (Vaud). To interest by the style of will kenitra,
David Richards (of which we will not make him the affront present it to you)
proposes an artistic collaboration.
      Unfortunately, the destiny decided some differently. The rhythmic
guitarist Yves Roulin (to perhaps frighten by the extent of the events)
decides to leave will kenitra, and it is replaced with the foot raised by
Raoul Goin.
      In 2002 will kenitra is selected among 30 groups of all the
French-speaking Switzerland by Recording Festival in Sion (Were worth). The
purpose of this festival is to support the new talents in their offering an
audio-video support, thus facilitating the promotional accesses to them
(concerts, house of discs, etc).
      And here is the first concert of will kenitra out of box... Also, will
kenitra seizes this advisability to give you the listening of his music
through support that you hold between your hands, and wishes that you will
have pleasure to listen to it.
      LINE-UP :
      Reda Redjati : Vocals
      Emanuel Pot : Drums
      Jalal Marhani : Guitars
     Raoul Goin : Guitars
      Julien Dulex : Bass
      TRACKLIST :
      1.Intro(0:39)
      2.Ya Chabab(4:53)
      3.Dounia (5:35)
      4.Kif-Kif (3:44)
      5.Morgana (4:45)
      6.Malou Malou(3:51)
      7.Red Balek(4:39)
      8.Bent Nasse(4:35)
      9.Dmah Ya Dmah(6:33)
      DOWNLOADS :
      AUDIO :
      LIVE:
      Intro (mp3)
      Ya Chabab (mp3)
      Dounia (mp3)
      Kif-Kif (mp3)
      Morgana (mp3)
      Malou Malou (mp3)
      Red Balek (mp3)
      Bent Nasse (mp3)
      Dmah Ya Dmah (mp3)
     VIDEO:
      Video 1
      Video 2
      CONTACT :
      Kenitra, Rte de l'Allex 1, 1880 Bex, Switzerland
      Email: ethnometal@tele2.ch Website: http://www.kenitra.ch
.
- needs a lot of editing. MathKnight 19:39, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Mostly needs a separate article. --24.122.130.78 23:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed from the article

message: kenitra (the small Arabic bridge) was founded in 1997 in Martigny
(Were worth) by:       Jalal Marhani composer-songwriter and guitarist of the group.       Surrounded by Yves Roulin in the rhythmic guitar and Yvan Monnet with
the battery, the group started to repeat.       The music of will kenitra is in a style which its musicians enjoy to call > MetalOrientalprog< from the fact that it is the result of the mixture of
Progressive Metal and the Eastern influences which bring to him its
type-setter thanks to his origins.
      After one year of good and faithful services, Yvan Monnet leaves for
new horizons leaving the group without beater, with a box at rate/rhythm
programme. Good beaters being always as much difficult to find under our
latitude, the box at rate/rhythm will function during one year and half.
      The répét's continue however and will kenitra is joined during 1999 by
Emanuel Pot with the battery, and Julien Dulex with low. Three months of
intensive work later, the group produces a first model of 10 instrumental
titles to the Colchique studio in Monthey (Were worth).
      2000 ran out, the cruising speed seemed reached and all went for best
for the group when a drama arrived. An animal of the family of the rodents
tackling the electric system, caused a fire which destroyed all the
building, as all the material of the group which was in its room.
      At the beginning of 2001, the heavy heart, Jalal Marhani decides to
leave to Morocco to record violins and typically Eastern percussions there
in order to polish its style. On its return in Switzerland, it meets the
centre piece of its group: Reda Redjati, Oriental singer residing at
Katmandu (Népal). They decide the setting-up of a project a collaboration.
      Medium 2001, Jalal Marhani moves in Bex (Vaud) where it finds a room
adapted to the installation of a project of studio of recording.
      During this time, the manager of the group approaches the owner of
Montain Studio in Montreux (Vaud). To interest by the style of will kenitra,
David Richards (of which we will not make him the affront present it to you)
proposes an artistic collaboration.
      Unfortunately, the destiny decided some differently. The rhythmic
guitarist Yves Roulin (to perhaps frighten by the extent of the events)
decides to leave will kenitra, and it is replaced with the foot raised by
Raoul Goin.
      In 2002 will kenitra is selected among 30 groups of all the
French-speaking Switzerland by Recording Festival in Sion (Were worth). The
purpose of this festival is to support the new talents in their offering an
audio-video support, thus facilitating the promotional accesses to them
(concerts, house of discs, etc).
      And here is the first concert of will kenitra out of box... Also, will
kenitra seizes this advisability to give you the listening of his music
through support that you hold between your hands, and wishes that you will
have pleasure to listen to it.
      LINE-UP :
      Reda Redjati : Vocals
      Emanuel Pot : Drums
      Jalal Marhani : Guitars
     Raoul Goin : Guitars
      Julien Dulex : Bass
      TRACKLIST :
      1.Intro(0:39)
      2.Ya Chabab(4:53)
      3.Dounia (5:35)
      4.Kif-Kif (3:44)
      5.Morgana (4:45)
      6.Malou Malou(3:51)
      7.Red Balek(4:39)
      8.Bent Nasse(4:35)
      9.Dmah Ya Dmah(6:33)
      DOWNLOADS :
      AUDIO :
      LIVE:
      Intro (mp3)
      Ya Chabab (mp3)
      Dounia (mp3)
      Kif-Kif (mp3)
      Morgana (mp3)
      Malou Malou (mp3)
      Red Balek (mp3)
      Bent Nasse (mp3)
      Dmah Ya Dmah (mp3)
     VIDEO:
      Video 1
      Video 2
      CONTACT :
      Kenitra, Rte de l'Allex 1, 1880 Bex, Switzerland
      Email: ethnometal@tele2.ch Website: http://www.kenitra.ch
.
- needs a lot of editing. MathKnight 19:39, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Mostly needs a separate article. --24.122.130.78 23:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kenitra

message: Why is it called 'Oriental' for example? While Israel and Turkey could be called Eastern from a European point of view, the term 'Oriental' is more usually used to refer to the 'Far East' like China and Japan.
:It's an older, broader usage (remember that archaising language is popular in metal).  See The Orient.  (Really, Wikipedia editors should use their own encyclopedia more.) Florian Blaschke 11:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources needed

message: Nile (band)'s Middle Eastern and Mesopotamian mysticism themes make the band a candidate to be added as a part of this genre. Though not directly related to the so called "founding" bands of the subgenre, Nile does share some of the same subject matter. Cannibaltom 22:48, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nile (band)

message: Oriental refers in this case to anything Middle Eastern, and metal obviously to metal, so the bands in the genre do not have to be Jewish perseé, in fact, about every heavy metal band with a strong middle east flavour is Oriental metal. In this definition, Nile, Mezarkabul, Salem, Orphaned Land and perhaps the later works of Behemoth could be labeled Oriental Metal. I think that the definition of Oriental Metal should way more wider than is currently written in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.194.169.143  (talk • contribs) 09:36, 15 October 2006
:Then the emphasize on the Jewish aspect needs to be reviewed and reduced, and the addition of the wide range of other middle eastern metal bands needs to be put in.Cannibaltom 02:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Perhaps we should merely reduce this to a blurb on the folk metal page, As oriental metal is new, and doesn't have the same level of acceptance as Viking Metal does, and is more like Celtic metal. Atechi 17:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition of the term

message: The purpose of this article is to define Oriental metal as a genre, not to make an extensive biography of Salem and Orphaned Land. Both of these bands have their own wikipedia article, so there's no need to describe their entire discography. Currently, this article has more content about these two bands than about the genre itself! It goes as far as describing the concept behind each album, describing individual songs, and even making not-so-objective comments about how the author feels when he listens to their music. Does anyone else think this part should be revised?--DarkPresence 19:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Superfluous info?

message: Even though at this point, i'm thinking this should be scraped and either remade, or divided and added to other articles, ie, folk metal. but none the less, i'm thinking you might aswell add all the chinese and japanese bands to this too, and go indepth about them too.
Sigh (band)
Chthonic (band)
Taarma (Black Emperor Jogezai) (band) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cannibaltom  (talk • contribs) 01:33, 2 November 2006
:Just because a band happens to be japanese or afghani doesn't mean they classify as oriental metal. The MUSIC needs to have eastern influences. Last time I checked, Sigh and Taarma don't have much to do with traditional oriental music.
:You're right about Chthonic, though. But I'm not sure they fit on this article. If we added them, we'd have to change the entire definition of oriental metal. It might be better to start an all-new subcategory (ie. Chinese metal) on the folk metal page.--DarkPresence 19:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: additions

message: way too many external links. why must each band's site be listed? cut it down to site that are generally about the so called "genre", and not the bands (site their respective stie already have those links). Cannibaltom 05:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nearly a year later, I'm removing these links. This article should link to individual band articles, not their websites.
The Almohads
Orphaned Land
Salem 
Mezarkabul
Distorted
Melechesh
Kenitra
Odious
Litham
Celsius
Since no actual external links are available for this article, the whole section is removed.Cannibaltom 00:34, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: external links

message: Such a small sprinkling of bands doesn't warrant a full article.  Oriental metal should be merged into a fuller paragraph under Folk metal.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by BryanJ (talk • contribs) 21:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This definitely should be merged or deleted. The very fact that we talk about changing the definition of this genre, inorder to include or exclude certain bands (which is completely subjective), means it really doesn't deserve an article of its own. Cannibaltom 00:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: This article should be deleted

message: Does it really exist? Salem, Orphaned Land, Melechesh, Arallu and Distorted are all verifiable oriental metal bands mentioned in this article from Israel. Presumably there are lesser known Israeli oriental metal bands that do not have a presence on the web or wikipedia. That was more or less sufficient to me for Israel to remain as an entry under the heading of Regional Scenes in the infobox. On the other hand, I was not able to find any verifiable oriental metal band from Turkey. I was under the impression that Pentagram / Mezarkabul would qualify but to my surprise, I was not able to find any reliable references that indicate it (opinions of fans on online forums do not count as reliable references). There might be some other bands in Turkey that performs oriental metal but I am certainly unaware of them. If someone can provide a reliable reference, that would be great. The exact term oriental metal does not need to be used. A reference to the band using middle eastern folk music in some substantial way is enough. In the absence of any evidence that there are several bands in Turkey that performs oriental metal, I do not think that there should be an entry for Turkey under the heading of Regional Scenes in the infobox. --Bardin (talk) 03:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Turkey regional scene

message: I see someone has added a description of oriental metal as extreme metal. I realized that all the bands currently mentioned on the article do qualify as extreme metal (death, black, doom) but I do not see any reason why this should be seen as a necessary condition on oriental metal bands. If folk metal bands can perform power or traditional heavy, then I imagine oriental metal bands can do so too. If it is not a necessary condition, then there's really no reason to mention it the opening sentence of this article. --Bardin (talk) 03:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a condition but it's a simple fact, oriental-oriented bands are all extreme metal bands. Kakun (talk) 07:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The ones on the article are all extreme metal bands. I can agree with you on that. I imagine that there are a lot more oriental metal bands out there, the rest of which simply do not have an article on wikipedia yet. I just think that asserting all oriental metal bands are extreme metal qualify as original research. That's not an issue when it comes to describing oriental metal as a subgenre of folk metal if only because the offered definition or description of oriental metal obviously falls under the umbrella of folk metal. But it is an issue when it comes to describing oriental metal as a subgenre of extreme metal. I had not come across any reliable reference on the internet that describes oriental metal specifically as a subgenre of extreme metal with no possibility of a band playing power or traditional metal to be considered as oriental. If you can find such a reference, then by all means add the info into the article with the citation. A line under musical characteristics would be an appropriate place for the citation. You might well be correct on this issue. Like yourself, I am not aware of any oriental metal band that is not extreme metal as well (unless one considers Mezarkabul). But we can't use our own personal knowledge on wikipedia (at least, we're not supposed to). We can only add in information that can be referenced. Incidentally, thanks for correcting my mistake in taking out the word both from the opening sentence. --Bardin (talk) 09:37, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Extreme metal

message: I've been brushing up this oriental metal article recently as anyone can see by the edit history. The genre is largely represented by three Israeli bands: Orphaned Land, Melechesh and Salem. There's no doubts or question marks as to whether these three bands are oriental metal. Lots of reliable sources on the internet describing them as such. There are other bands performing the style but who do not have an article page on wikipedia, eg. Litham, Langsuyr, Odious, etc. All of these bands have been tagged explicitly with the exact term oriental metal (or variations like oriental black metal). 
The band Nile was mentioned on this oriental metal article before I began working on it. I've left them in the article even though I was not able to find anything that explicitly links them to it. After I spent some time expanding the folk metal article, I returned to the oriental metal article to improve it further. After several days of searching, I still can't find anything that explicitly links Nile to oriental or folk metal. Ordinarily enough, I would just kick them out of the article and that would be the end of the story. However, I have come across descriptions of Nile that seemingly indicate that they can qualify as oriental metal. I have not heard the band's music myself so I really have no idea what they sound like. Just going by what other people say, there's a review on allmusic noting that their music features "occasional interpolations of Middle Eastern folk melodies." A review on metal-observer describes their music as featuring "oriental flourishes." Another review on the same site notes that they've used "oriental instruments." Occasional and flourishes do not indicate a lot but then again, I'm not aware of any restriction indicating that there needs to be a lot of oriental stuff for a band to be called oriental metal. Only Nile has not been called oriental metal by any reliable sources online except in one sole interview with someone from a different band Forgotten Silence that describes Nile's oriental metal as superficial. The transcript of the interview uses quotation marks around oriental for some unknown reason. Another interview with someone from Melechesh explicitly repudiates Nile as being a similar band: "it's totally different, because all they do is basically play death metal, but the lyrics, instead of gore, are about Egypt, which is really cool. They're more influenced by a lyrical concept and a few samplings, but the whole structure of the songs is intelligent, brutal death metal. On the contrary, we invent a musical structure, with the guitar and drum techniques."
With that all in mind, I must confess that I'm really uncertain as to whether the band Nile should be included in this article or not. It feels like original research to me whether they are included or left out. I figure I should play it safe though and take the conservative option of leaving them out. There's another relevant factor too: Nile appears to be a lot more well-known than any of the above oriental metal bands. There's more info on Nile online than those bands. Yet despite that wealth of info, there's no reliable source describing them as oriental metal. I guess sometimes silence says more than words. I also note that the wikipedia article for Nile does not mention oriental metal at all. --Bardin (talk) 15:11, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As a regular editor on the Nile article, I've watched as people have added oriental metal to their description, and I have often proceeded to remove it, primarily due to lack of sourcing. I've gotta' say, for the most part, I am in the same boat as you as to whether to include them. They have a lot of oriental use in their music, but mostly, it's their instrumental/ambient tracks, usually not the tracks with either vocals or actual guitar work in them - initially, if you listened to the tracks alone, you wouldn't know it was done by a metal band (it'd sound more like Karl Sanders' solo album, Saurian Meditation). They sometimes, but less frequently, use the oriental "sounds" with actual metal tracks; but I'm not sure if they do it enough for them to be called "oriental metal". ≈ The Haunted Angel 15:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Nile

message: I know it was removed before, but shouldn't we have on eventually? Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 21:57, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A list for just seven bands? Seems rather unnecessary to me. Orphaned Land, Melechesh, Salem, Arallu, Distorted, Khalas and Mezarkabul are the only oriental metal bands with a presence on wikipedia as far as I know and they are all already mentioned in this article. I've just added Salem and Khalas to the list of folk metal bands so all seven bands are on that list now. Their entries in the notes column all begin with oriental so the list can be sorted through that notes column to identify all the oriental metal bands as well as all the celtic and medieval metal groups. There's eight celtic metal bands and nine medieval metal bands, incidentally. For some reason, there's also a category for oriental metal bands but there's none for celtic or medieval metal. I'm not sure that category for oriental metal bands is really necessary with just the few entries there. --Bardin (talk) 02:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose not, but there has to be more than seven bands, doesn't there?  Otherwise there may be no point in even having this article. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 23:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's enough to have an article as long as the genre is genuine and not a neologism. There are certainly other bands performing the genre but I guess those bands are generally not notable enough to merit an article page on wikipedia. --Bardin (talk) 03:30, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, I see.  Well someone should find some oriental metal bands that do pass the notability requirements and create the pages. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 21:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: List of oriental metal bands

message: I've just realized that the inclusion of Mezarkabul in this article has a similar problem to the Nile issue that I've described above. Reviews like this and that does mention that the band use oriental elements in their music but does not actually identify them as an oriental metal band. 
Mezarkabul has been identified as oriental metal in this lonely interview with a completely different band Forgotten Silence who are not even in the same genre. I'm very reluctant to consider a passing mention by a member of a different band not in the same genre to be a reliable source for identifying bands that are oriental metal or not. --Bardin (talk) 04:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Mezarkabul

message: Salem was formed in 1985, not in 1988(you can find it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_%28band%29)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.180.140.20 (talk) 18:11, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Salem was formed in 1985

message: Just like Celtic metal has its own page, I think oriental metal is distinct enough to warrant its own article. Various subgenres of Oriental metal, such as Oriental black metal, are really pushing the folk metal label, and you'd be hard pressed to find someone call The Epigenesis by Melechesh a "folk metal" album. In the Turkish and Italian Wikipedia sites, oriental metal has a great separate article.
I'm going to begin work on making Oriental Metal its own separate article, instead of keeping it as a redirect. Or-Shalem (talk) 04:39, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  I would like to add this back as a separate article. I think since the early 2010s, Oriental Metal has evolved out of the Folk Metal scene and kind of exists on its own