Talk:Augmented sixth chord

message: This section of the article needs to be deleted or greatly expanded.  It simply states "people have differing opinions about this" and offers absolutely no elaboration.  Specific examples of interpretations are necessary if this section of the article is to exist at all.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by SockEat (talk • contribs) 06:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it's totally unsatisfactory as is; I'd remove the section. A related issue is that the derivation of the three aug 6 chords from their original, diatonic, root-position chords is missing. I think these derivations should be included in the treatment of each chord, with refs to the appropriate texts. Tony (talk) 07:04, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I put in a quote from Tchaikovsky which kind of goes against common opinion. He was the only one of the really acknowledged masters to write on the subject before the 20th century (well Rimsky-Korsakov did as well, but he's not quite in the same league), so I think his opinion should be heard. 78.84.17.15 (talk) 21:02, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Root of the augmented sixth chord 

message: Theorists have struggled for centuries to explain the origins of these chords, define their roots, and fit them into conventional harmonic theory.Some general sources for the modern theory of these chords are Aldwell and Schachter (op. cit.); Gauldin R, Harmonic practice in tonal music, Norton, New York, 1997, ISBN 0-393-97074-4, pp. 422–438; and Christ, W, DeLone, R, Kliewer, V, Rowell, L, and Thomson, W, Materials and structure of music, Vol. 2, 2nd ed., Prentice-Hall, NJ, 1973, pp. 141–171. (Christ et al. offer a usefully detailed consideration of augmented sixth chords along with the Neopolitan sixth chord.)
:I'm grappling with this statement. I disagree with the statement that "theorists have struggled for centuries to explain the origins of these chords". Thoughts? --Blehfu (talk) 22:01, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You disagree? You think theorists figured it out right away, and we've understood them ever since? Every 18th-century theorist had an explanation for augmented sixth chords, and they were all different. —Wahoofive (talk) 06:23, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't disagree with that theorists have struggled to explain or analyze the chords, just that they had trouble "explaining the origins". --Blehfu (talk) 06:57, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: To be more specific, or less obtuse, aren't the origins of x6 chords their diatonically unaltered counterpoints like IV7, ii6/5, etc.? It's that word, origins that I have the problem with. I am a fussy git, no? --Blehfu (talk) 07:07, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree entirely with you, Blehfu. Aldwell and Schachter—and others—explain the derivations from their diatonic parent chords with elegance and simplicity. I think this should be included in the article. Tony (talk) 08:59, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to then shirk this particular responsibility as I don't have this reference at hand... Anyone? --Blehfu (talk) 15:44, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Maybe theorists were struggling for centuries over augmented sixth chords, but that seems like an improbable amount of time for a rather simple problem.  Maybe theorists did struggle for centuries; composers didn't.  Functionally, J.S. Bach clearly knew exactly what a German Augmented Sixth chord was, even if his peers didn't and even if he didn't call it such.  I would imagine Bach knew a great deal about theory and probably had some kind of explanation, even if it wasn't recognized by other theorists.  Also, the idea that every 18th century theorist had a unique explanation for augmented sixth chords is a downright silly, rash generalization.  There simply aren't that many explanations.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.129.63.3 (talk) 21:25, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: "Struggle to explain the origins"?

message: To Tony1: Regarding the relationship between the Fr4/3 and V7 sonorities, I hope I was able to cover that in the following section "French sixth sonority as dominant". --Blehfu (talk) 15:48, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dominant functions 

message: Do I detect a note of frustration, Blehfu. IMO, those templates should be flushed down the pan; they were made for newbies and innocents, and seem to have become the norm for most editors who should be able to manage quite easily without them. They've grown like topsy at the behest of developers who live in a different world. Uncoordinated mess. Nothing wrong with manual. Tony (talk) 13:34, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  citation templates, arrgh 

message: Why are the bars listed considered any kind of +6 at all? In both the Andante and the Con Anima, bars 3-4 of both are completely diatonic.  Realillusions (talk) 18:13, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed this, as there's been no response. Realillusions (talk) 18:20, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't looked at the example, but the most obvious answer is that it's non-diatonic to the progression presented, but rather diatonic to the key signature.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.129.63.3 (talk) 21:29, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tchaikovsky Inversion Example 

message: For most musicians, the alto clef is not second nature; could the picture in "Dominant functions" be replaced with one without such an absurd clef? Hyacinth (talk) 10:54, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The clef is not absurd. Never using it will not make it easier. The notes are labeled in the text below. Hyacinth (talk) 10:54, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

text: Statistically, today most people who play an instrument don't play a woodwind.  Other instances of alto clef are too few and far in between.  So yes, it is a bit absurd, but that doesn't justify you not learning how to read it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.129.63.3 (talk) 21:10, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture with alto clef 

message: Why and where does this section need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth (talk) 22:56, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It shouldn't.  The French Augmented sixth is clearly an enharmonic altered dominant with a flat five replacing the fifth scale degree.  Any one with half a brain for theory or the capacity for critical thought should be able to reach that very same conclusion.  Just because a text states something doesn't make it correct, and just because a text didn't doesn't mean it isn't.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.129.63.3 (talk) 21:05, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional citations: French sixth sonority as dominant

message: "Suppose you're in the key of C. Write an Ab combined with an F# and you have two notes that are each a half-step away from G, but coming at it from different directions. Each is serving as a "leading tone" to G, and that G could be the root of the dominant chord or it could be the bass of the inverted tonic chord. Either way this interval, an augmented sixth, sets up a feeling that the next thing to happen is going to be a G.
Now you can fill out that interval in various ways, making a chord with a fuller sonority." From Ars Nova. Burraron (talk) 19:10, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Useful explanation 

message: We should probably mention "Also called a tritone" or replace aug6 entirely with tritone.
Aug6 is outdated lingo. Academia uses the term tritone over aug6.
162.157.152.87 (talk) 20:24, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Er, no, nonsense! The inversion of an augmented sixth is a diminished third. The inversion of a tritone is ... a tritone. There is an augmented fourth in an aug6 chord, but it isn't that that gives it its character or its function in voice-leading. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:57, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tritone 

message: I use dark mode on iOS and the SVG representing scale degrees (see the first sentence of the description for the French and German variants) doesn't render correctly. How would we fix this issue? Ledhed2222 (talk) 20:11, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to properly render scale degree SVG image in dark mode? 

message: The description says that - for an an Italian Augmented Sixth - the root is doubled. However, in the example (the "generic" example, not the Beethoven excerpt) it is actually the third that is doubled: Ab - C - C - F#. I think this has the potential to confuse readers, as the example comes directly after the description. Unless the article is assuming that C is the root, which I doubt? 82.15.153.175 (talk) 07:57, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: No one agrees what the "root" is of any augmented sixth. We should say the tonic is doubled. —Wahoofive (talk) 00:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doubling for Italian Sixth