Talk:Asian fetish/Archive 12

message: This article certainly got short!  Whatever happened to the bulk of it contradicting itself.  "Asian Fetish is the preference for Asian features usually by a white man for an Asian woman, that is, if it does in fact exist, which currently there isn't much evidence for, that is, at the present time, unless in the event that some kind of evidence is brought forth, there is chance that its existence is mereley speculation, that is, in the minds of those who are opposed to the idea of it existing, whereas those who believe it exist are against it, at least in theory."  
I guess everything that the two sides couldn't agree on got deleted? Bethereds 20:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What the hell happened?

message: This article is biased for pro-interracial marriage. Most, if not all, of the sources cited contain original research and lack references. Some sources promote contradictory arguments and stereotypes of Asians. For instance, on this pro-intermarriage site: 
Has these stereotypical statements:
"anti-Asian fetish camp would begrudge a woman the right to prefer tall guys or short guys, or whatever preferred physical characteristic as the case may be."
That statement is implying that Asian men are short, which is a stereotype. This is also implying that some genetic or cultural traits of Asian men are inferior.
"Perhaps her spouse's East Asian trait of preferring 'tolerance' over 'truth' in conflict situations is what preserved her marriage so far. Most people do have difficulty living with someone so full of sensitive self-righteousness and quick anger. I am not at all implying all East Asian men will put up with such negative personalities, or that there are no Western men who can handle a woman like that, just that there might be a higher likelihood in Eastern cultures than in Western cultures of finding an individual who can put aside the abstract principles of 'truth' and 'rightness' in favor of the tolerance and compromise that make the day-to-day living-together bearable. The New Scientist article Westerners and Easterners see the world differently provides some insight into this cultural difference."
This is a stereotype implying that Asian men are male chauvinists.
"These non-Asians-who-love-Asian-culture-and-people may have spent years dabbling in Eastern religions, typically utilizing Buddhist meditation to get the physiological "feel good" benefits. Yet they picked up none of the Buddhist values of understanding, tolerance, compassion and consideration for others. They remain very selfish and unable to see beyond their own interests. Indeed, their whole interest in Eastern religions (and people) is all about "me, me, me", e.g. using meditation to feel good about themselves instead of actually transcending the self."
This is assuming that most East Asians are religious. However, roughly 50% of Chinese are non-religious. That means 50% of yellows are non-religious, since the non-PRC people are small.
That article is not a reference, it is an editorial. I believe it has to moved to the editorial section in the external links. The article claims many stereotypes, but does not cite the sources. There is no name of the author in the "editorial". 
I believe that saying that "some non-Asian men that attracted to Asian women are only attracted to their culture" is false. I believe that non-Asian men saying that they are only attracted to Asian culture is propaganda. Saying that they are only attracted to Asian culture, instead of their stereotypical physical features, is an excuse from their unhealthy Asian attraction. 
In my opinion, it seems suspicious that some non-Asian men saying that they are only attracted to "East Asian" culture. Why are they attracted to the culture of the "yellow" race when its culture is very diverse? Why are they not attracted to "non-yellow" culture, say, Indian culture?  
Indian culture and Southeast Asian culture are more similar than Southeast Asian culture and East Asian culture. Why are non-Asian men attracted to the yellow cultures when Indian culture is more similar to southeast culture? It seems like Asian fetish.
I also believe that non-Asian men saying mail-order bribes are beneficial because it saves yellow women from poverty, is propaganda. Why are not there any mail-order brides in the poorer, non-yellow countries, such as India? 
This article, that I strongly believe, including the sources are overly biased for interracial marriage and contains an overwhelming load of propaganda and deception.
71.175.60.251 19:05, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your input, there is no doubt that this article has been hijacked by some adolescent trolls. However, we are currently looking to more formal research in lieu of "reverting" the article on a whim. If you have any suggestions on articles that are in Asian American studies, we would appreciate that you post them so we may puruse the material. WikiIsforLamers 20:23, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Another editor raised similar concerns in the 'Context for sources' section, which I tried to address. Also, while the sources may be biased towards a particular POV, none of the material you cited actually appears in the article, so I don't think the article, as it stands, is particularly unbalanced. Lindentree 20:42, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources are not reliable, Article overly biased and propaganda 

message: I don't have access to academic journals, but I do know that a large part of Prasso's book is devoted exactly to the topic of Asian fetish.  I've flipped through the book at the book store, but I don't think I'm really interested enough in the subject matter to actually read the whole book so I'm not going to buy it.  However I would recommend it as a source if one of you is willing to spend the money on it.  I know that it covers a bit of history on the West's sexual fascination with Asian women.  As far as Prasso's credentials are concerned, from what I remember from the back of the book, she has a master's degree in Social Anthropology, and she has had over 15 years of experience writing about Asia as a journalist for some very notable publications.  Of course, this doesn't necessarily make her the last authority on this controversial subject matter, which is why it's important that we attribute her as a source within the body of the article itself if we do take material from her book.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 01:56, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've read it, and it does have some interesting material. However, she makes questionable connections, such as Asian fetish having its roots in pedophilia. I might be able to get a copy at the library and re-read it for useful content. Lindentree 02:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been put on a queue for this book from a local library system near my friend's house. Looks like they have a some sort of loan-system so I may be able to take some research afterall. Are there any other books that comes to mind? WikiIsforLamers 05:19, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prasso's book 

message: See my previous comments at #The genetic femininity is untrue
I defend this statements: 
* Less muscle mass found among East Asians as compared to Whites[3][4]
:This is because East Asians devalue exercise. (see Race and height)
* Lower levels of violent crime committed by East Asians[5][6]
:Correlation does not imply causation. Testosterone level does not necessary correlate to crime level. See Genetics and crime. A mutation makes a person much more prone to violence, regardless of testosterone level one level. Natural selection can produce certain genes that make a person less violent or more violent. 
* Larger average testicular volumes of White males as compared to East Asian males, e.g. a study by Jared Diamond, professor of physiology at UCLA and Pulitzer Prize winner, comparing average testes volumes upon autopsy of Danes and Hong Kong Chinese[7][8]
:See Race and height for diet differences that make East Asians and whites different in testosterone. Also see Stereotypes of East Asians and Southeast Asians#Explanations.
* Possible differences in average penile size, which shows a strong relation to prenatal and childhood testosterone levels[9], e.g. smaller average penis sizes found among Chinese newborns[10]
:Again, see Race and height for diet differences (such as isoflavones in soybean products) that make Asians have small penises.
* A lower prevalence of androgenetic alopecia among East Asian men[11]
:Again, see Race and height and Stereotypes of East Asians and Southeast Asians#Explanations.
* The higher average life expectancies of women and East Asians, fewer incidences of prostate cancer and heart disease among East Asians[12][13][14](page 9)
:This may be affected by the height of East Asians are shorter (again, effected by cultural and environmental differences instead of genetic differences), or/and the differences in diet. 
* The dating discrepancy is not found among East Indian - White couples, East Indians show physical characteristics more similar to Whites than East Asians[15]
:This is because Asian fetishists are attracted to yellow skin, NOT brown skin. And stereotypes of Oriental culture. Asian fetishists think yellow people are more prettier than brown people.
* The larger number of Black male - White female couples as compared to White male - Black female couples, which may reflect a similar dynamic[16]
:Apes have less testosterone levels but look masculine. (See Stereotypes of East Asians and Southeast Asians#Explanations.)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Unfreeride (talk • contribs).
He had been trying to add that section for more than a year now.  It's some German guy who wants to advance his racist pseudo science.  He was banned from the German Wikipedia for pulling the same stunts.  More importantly, the section is a bunch of stuff strung together by himself that don't necessarily have anything to do with Asian fetish - in other words, WP:original research.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 19:41, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The role of Testosterone is oversimplified, ignorant, prejudice, stereotypical, and most importantly does not mention cultural differences 

message: I can not see that the article cited has anything to do with "the sexual preference for Asian people", as Asian fetish is defined. Furthermore, I can not see that Vanessa Hue argues anything at all, she just interviews people. And for the rest of the paragraph, it is merely a collection of unsourced statements and weasel words. Thus I suggest this paragraph be deleted.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaitenbushi (talk • contribs) 01:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since no one has offered any explanation, I removed the paragraph. Kaitenbushi 07:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Vanessa Hue paragraph 

message: The Vicky Nam statement has been uncited for quite a while. This statement used to be phrased as a "many thinks..." statement, i.e. weasel wordish OR. It was attributed to Vicky Nam in May (see ). I contacted the contributer to confirm (see User_talk:Dark_Tea#Asian_fetish_edit), and it appears she hasn't read the book but assumed the statement to come from the same book as the next paragraph (The Erika Kim paragraph). If you read the previous version, I think this assumption is not supported, and therefore suggest we remove this paragraph. Kaitenbushi 02:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I looked through my copy of the book and can't find anything remotely resembling this statement by her. It's possible one of the other contributors said it, but I don't think so. I ran a search for another source, but couldn't find one. As this article is currently the only source for Vicky Nam having said this, and the statement(in my opinion)is poorly written, I'll remove it for now. Lindentree 07:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Vicky Nam paragraph 

message: This article is the epitomy of how Wikipedia is largely controlled by white men in the United States and that their world-view of what is inclusive becomes the notability standard for Wikipedia. 
To even dare say a fetish of any type of RACE is a concept that is American and most specifically from a white perspective. Minorities exclusively dating white people see it as the regular norm, not as a fetish. Though I do believe fetishes exist such as saying one has a leather fetish. But how can one fetish an intangible concept and how is it truly a defined fetish? Asian fetish is a neologism at best to classify something that should be termed something else such as "Asian preference" and the context of such a topic should reflect historical definitions of race in America. .:DavuMaya:. 08:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you know Wikipedia is run by white men and that their world-view of what is inclusive becomes the notability standard for Wikipedia? I mean, I have noticed that even pure-bred white men vary greatly in their world-view. Some, like those in Europe, are very liberal. The Soviets were even more liberal. Some, like many here in the Americas (especially Latin America) are centrist or conservative (Well, Americans vary from ultra-conservative to ultra-liberal). There are some that are Eurocentric and some that acknowledge the accomplishments of other races, especially the Great Wall of China. And the fact that many, thousands at least, white people date and occasionally marry and mix with other races shows that they are not all racist, as a lot of people claim. Just look at the comments on this page! I hope I have not said too much or broken any guidlines. Jknight98  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.201.131 (talk) 14:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia's white power 

message: Seriously, though, how is having a sexual preference for Asian people any different than one for any other race that somehow makes it worthy of its own article?
This is ridiculous.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.164.245.98 (talk) 01:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The majority are generally Asian and Caucasian people dating.  It's not common to see someone who is black dating someone who is white.  That's why there is an article for "Asian fetish".  The media has more of an interest in it.  You can see movies displaying Asians dating Caucasians.  But do you ever see a black dating a Caucasian? It's not that common.  I don't think that there should be an article on "Latina fetish" or "Caucasian fetish" or "Black fetish".  The media has no interest in them at all.  So why should it be an article? You haven't stated the reason why.  I personally have never heard of Latina fetish, Caucasian fetish or Black fetish.  It's interesting that there are more Asians dating Caucasians.  Most people aren't drawn to a white dating a black.  People just aren't interested in that.  If it was, the media would be reporting every relationship.  --Ladii artiste 21:39, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

text: This article is a mess. It is so poorly written and it seems like it would need substantial changes to improve this article. Very little research or news articles seem to assert its notability. Maybe there should be an AfD vote. mirageinred 03:26, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: We need articles on the white, black and hispanic fetishes

message: Some new research is added, I suggest we keep up with improving this article, it gets a little sloppy because of the arguments and constant editing...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.250.118.55 (talk) 07:08, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New research added 

message: What part of the article is not written in a NPOV? Please address concerns. Thanks. —Christopher Mann McKaytalk 05:59, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If no one objects, I am going to remove the NPOV tag, as it does not appear anyone has issues with the neturality of this article. —Christopher Mann McKaytalk 17:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV Tag

message: It seems to me that all contributers have their own defintion for what Asian fetish is, apperant form the recent edit war over whether adoption is part of the topic. This makes it is difficult to work constructively together on this article. While the definition as it stands at the moment is rather silly, I hesitate to work on it since no one, me included, has found a definition from a autoritative source. Before such a source is found, the article is original research/synthesis, and I tag it as such. Remember "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." (from WP:V) Kaitenbushi (talk) 08:25, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  OR issue - Definition of the term 

message: OK, seems like both me and Tkguy broke the three-revert rule. Since Tkguy has already reverted my last version, I can't follow this advice. I will take a bit of time off, and encourage Tkguy to do the same. Kaitenbushi (talk)  —Preceding comment was added at 04:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I reported Tkguy b/c he refused to follow 3RR after I notified him of his wrongdoing. —Christopher Mann McKaytalk 04:16, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine I added how you were working with kaitenbushi to skirt the 3rr rules. So let's see what happens. I've also mentioned your non-constructive editing of the Campus Watch (a American pro-Israel neoconservative think tank) page. Tkguy (talk) 05:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  3RR