Talk:Kimba the White Lion

message: I felt that the part of this article about the Kimba/Lion King controversy is somewhat biased on the Tezuka's side. I acknowledge that most of this article is probably written by Tezuka/Kimba fans and as such, dislike Disney, and what they "did". But come on. Grow up. This text could be written by a prosecutor in a court of law just as well. Wikipedia isn't here to slate any person or company. Wikipedia should list the both sides of things. Read this, and edit that part. Massively. Simba means a lion in Swahili either way, so it's quite enough to merit a weird coincidence and I see no reason behind Disney changing the name of Simba over Kimba. How many movies are there out there that include a talkative bird, a wise monkey and a villainous uncle? And there's nothing in both of them standing on a rock - that's what lions do in real life, they stand on rocks. Big deal. There are white lions in real life, and in the name of equality, Disney wants some diversity in their character span. No concept art is to prove anything. Get real, Disney did not rip the movie off from Tezuka, it's just the blind fans talking, and you all know it. --88.112.82.41 05:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Congratulations you're a liar. You didn't watch anything to prove that Lion King ripped off Kimba. You watched a movie that came AFTER Lion King for many comparisons and a show that is just a generic show with little to no similarities. 98.169.34.69 (talk) 17:09, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I know I'm replying to an one-year-old comment but, man, you replied to a comment from 15 years ago... 2804:14C:87B5:845E:A1AF:DF7E:173E:2F6F (talk) 04:39, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unfair 

message: So according to user CaptainEek, the Adam Johnson (YMS) video is "not a reliable source" and "poorly sourced content" even though Adam Johnson clearly showed his sources including Kimba the White Lion show itself. At the same time Wikipedia uses the poorly source book made by Madhavi Sunder a lawyer who clearly did not watch the original 1994 The Lion King film nor any Kimba the White Lion and ironically she uses another Youtube video from 2008 as a source. Everything is shown here. I find did very ironic that Wikipedia accepts as reliable source a Book that uses a Youtube Video as one of its sources, but another Youtube Video is deemed unreliable, only because its a Youtube video. 
Another debunked information is about director Roger Allers living in Japan in the 1980s while The New Adventures of Kimba The White Lion was airing in Japanese Television. Well Wikipedia sources again Madhavi Sunder. But there are sources that say that Allers only lived two years in Japan in the early 1980s  1 2 3. According to the last two of this sources, he return to the US in 1985 and joined Disney working on Oliver & Company. The New Adventures of Kimba The White Lion was released in 1989, 4 years after Allers leaved Japan. I think that Wikipedia needs to delete any mention of Allers living in Japan while the remake of Kimba was airing in Japanese "prime time television", as it's clearly false information invented by Sunder. --190.215.25.76 (talk) 04:24, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: There are some great points here, I just want to add the case of Ahoy and Polybius. This also has a single YouTube video being used as a source. Why hasn't that been deleted? JorWat (talk) 05:22, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: What happened to actual research? I agree that Adam Johnson's video is very good and well researched from the looks of it, and probably should be included in this article.--Rockclaw1030 (talk) 17:18, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is a disgrace. Still false information based on speculation and lies including a book that uses a awful YouTube video made in Movie Maker as a main source. Books are not reliable per se, a lawyer is not an expert in Animated shows and movies. Also Roger Allers was not living in Japan when the Kimba remake aired. It’s been proven false. He was living in the US in 1985. The Kimba remake aired in 1989. Gosh. --186.11.82.245 (talk) 14:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

text: Adam Johnston watched all of the versions of Kimba and even streamed his researching/editing process on Twitch. Johnston directly cites clips from the Kimba the White Lion series in his video essay. He shows how many of the images used to prove that The Lion King copied have been pulled from parts of the Kimba franchise that were released after The Lion King. Madhavi Sunder references YouTube videos with low quality screenshots and she also undeniably misstates what actually happens in The Lion King in her book. The inconsistencies between what Sunder describes and what Johnston clearly shows is why I believe her book should be considered an unreliable source. TJScalzo (talk) 02:32, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

text: The point of Wikipedia is not to make the most truthful content, but actually make obedient articles that clearly follow Wikipedia's guidelines, orderly standards, and policies. In short, this website is about making lawful pages. If you write something that this wiki's principles would like then you should remember that veracity is never the point of the article, and the point of the article is to discuss a topic using the capabilities and limitations of Wikipedia's overall key law-and-order structure.  Simply put it, an article should be within restraints and stay below the law. Sometimes you should explore the capabilities of the restraints, but still remain inside limits. «Iias!:,,.:usbkI» 14:41, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia does not care about truth. Got it. 68.14.191.180 (talk) 01:08, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

text: Update: I've added this DVD feature to the article. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 04:31, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Debunked Information, poor sources and completely made up facts 

message: Just in case the situation escalates again, this article should have a pending changes protection template. I wonder if it works. «Iias!:,,.:usbkI» 14:29, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pending changes protection request 

message: On 27 May 2020, YourMovieSucksDOTorg released a video called: "YMS: Kimba the White Lion". The video last 2 hours 27 minutes and Adam Johnston: "polemicises many previous arguments on the controversy and concludes that previous authors mischaracterized the Japanese series when comparing it to the Disney film, and that there is in fact no credible evidence to suggest plagiarism."
Since its release, there have been several instances of IPs and new accounts trying to add YMS as a source, to the point it got protected. And as apparently this won’t end in the near future, I am opening this RFC even though it should be the other way around.
Note that per WP:RSPYT YouTube is a "generally unreliable source": "Most videos on YouTube are anonymous, self-published, and unverifiable, and should not be used at all. Content uploaded from a verified official account, such as that of a news organization, may be treated as originating from the uploader and therefore inheriting their level of reliability" and per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS: "Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content."
As multiple editors at Kimba the White Lion and this talk page have been new accounts, single-purpose accounts and IP editors, this is a friendly reminder that Wikipedia is not a democracy; the consensus is reached through discussion supported with policies and guidelines, not mere voting. © Tbhotch™ (en-3). 23:02, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Background

message: * In my opinion, it should be excluded. Reasons, there are multiple:
:a. This video is more a "this is my opinion concerning the Kimba/Simba similarities" rather than exhaustive academic research users have persistently said here on the talk page.
:b. This is just a WP:USERGENERATED source. Although Johnston sporadically shows images of real sources on-screen (for example at 9:32, 17:06), he rarely cites the sources in the video, but none are mentioned in the YouTube description.
:c. Does this video fall into fair use? 94% of the video consists of copyrighted footage. Fair use allows using copyrighted material for critical commentaries, like Johnston's video, however, there is a limit for such usage. The only moments non-Disney/Fuji TV material appears is at the end, at minute 2:18:15. This can easily fall into WP:ELNEVER.
:d. After watching part of the video, I divided into:
::#Minute 0:00 - 7:32: Johnston makes an introduction about the video, which includes his opinion on the topic.
::#Minute 7:32 - 9:27: Comparison between Simba/Kimba name, including the following material used to prove that Disney didn't copy Kimba's name: machine translations of The Lion King's characters from Swahili, a Wikipedia research of Franz von Werra (who had a lion called Simba) and Simba: King of the Beasts.
::#Minute 9:27 - 11:30: Comparison between Pumbaa and Gargoyle. Johnston merely gives his opinion between how Gargoyle appearing once is not proof of plagiarism. No sources are provided, just an opinion.
::#Minute 11:30 - 19:40: Other Kimba/Simba characters and situations that Johnston considers prove their plots are different. Quora (user-generated) is quoted at 16:59. At 17:06 another quoted text appears but doesn't cite the source.
::#Minute 19:40 - 22:01: Simpsons Did It-reference to prove Disney did not copy the film. Quota (a user-generated website) is cited at 22:00 but never sourced. All opinions, no sources used.
::#Minute 22:01 - 23:15: Kimba+Lily (whatever her name is) vs. Simba+Nala relationship. All opinions by Johnston.
::#Minute 23:15 - 24:00: Johnston quotes fragments of sources, yet they are never cited. Now, 23 minutes later he cites his first source: Watching Anime, Reading Manga: 25 Years of Essays and Reviews (2004) by Fred Patten, where Patten makes "insane comparison criticisms that I mention in this video", said Johnston at 23:30-36.
::#Minute 23:56 - 27:00: Patton and Watching Anime: "Now Fred Patton actually has a lot of credibilities when it comes to being an anime and manga fan", citing his career from 24:00-30, to later say that he disagrees with Patton's opinion on Watching Anime about this controversy. Johnston gives his opinion about why Patton's Kimba-Simba comparison is reductive and simplistic.
::#Minute 27:00 - 31:50: Simpsons Did It, part II. Several examples of other alleged plagiarisms in media. Some quotes appear on the screen, never cited, but Johnston gives his opinion about them.
::#Minute 31:50 - 33:20: Hamlet references.
:*After this I stopped watching it because I know the remaining will go on like this: footage -> opinion about the footage -> quote -> opinion about the quote -> footage-opinion about the footage, repeat. Several users at #Debunked Information, poor sources and completely made up facts said that not only this video was trustable, credible, well-researched and a reliable source, yet this is a video of a person merely giving his opinion on a topic, no more reliable than anyone's opinion on any subject, occasionally quoting sources that think that Disney copied Kimba and commenting on them. Because of that and the persistent addition of that source I support the exclusion from Kimba the White Lion and The Lion King (franchise)-related articles.  © Tbhotch™ (en-3). 23:02, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: * If this is included, it should be in the reception section along with any other reviews, with no more than 1-2 sentences. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:26, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind. I see that they were already alerted. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:21, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion