Talk:Kim Jong-nam

message: We should aim to present as clear a story as possible, indicating the necessary doubts, and only naming sources inline where they add relevance.  At the moment, it reads more like a series of rumours than an account of his life.Earthlyreason (talk) 10:40, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Restructure needed

message: A free use image of Kim Jong-nam as an adult cannot be found as of yet. There is  from , which is a suitable image in terms of content, however, as the photograph was taken in Japan (at Narita Airport), Japanese copyright law applies, and so, cannot be used. I have not been able to find any suitable images that were taken within the DPRK that mark his adult resemblance (only a few childhood photos and family photos), which would be able to fall into the category of Template:CopyrightedFreeUse-DPRK. For use with that template, images must be taken within the DPRK. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:14, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  No free use image (adult)  [2009] 

message: There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages. 
The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion. 
Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:47, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion|Request for Comments]] 

message: There is no mention of "Kim Jimmy" in any sources I've seen, and the second son is not mentioned in the body of the article. Is this vandalism? 74.8.89.79 (talk) 13:53, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Younger son? 

message: In this BBC News report, there seems to be some doubt as to whether the person confirmed by the authorities to be dead is actually Kim Jong-nam. The article says "they named him [the dead man] as "Kim Chol", not Kim Jong-nam" and "An official statement released by Malaysian police named the dead man as "Kim Chol", born 10 June 1970. Kim Jong-nam was born on 10 May 1971."
However, they also have this news report, which doesn't give the same doubt, and says that he "lived a life in exile until his death in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, on 14 February". Can anyone explain the conflicting reports, and does it make any difference to the article?  Seagull123  Φ  16:39, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The BBC report is fairly clear that it was him, but that he was travelling on a false passport or under a different identity. There doesn't seem, more broadly, to be much doubt that it is Kim who died. More debatable is how (we've gone from needles to cloth on face, and may yet end up with heart attack or whatever), plus when. The second talks about him dying on 14 Feb, while the first says the incident occurred on Monday, ie 13 Feb (and he seems to have died pretty soon afterwards). N-HH talk/edits 17:01, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

text: I added that quote, and it was in the article when I added it, but sometimes (I think) BBC articles change quite a bit as they're updated.  Seagull123  Φ  22:09, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough; I know it was quoted in a Reuters report and other publications (and alluded to in the more recent version anyhow). I just removed it as I couldn't find the quote in past editions on the Internet Archive, and added some more detailed info. HelgaStick (talk) 22:27, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  BBC report about death 

message: According to this Independent article, there was an assassination attempt in Macau in 2011, but I found no reference in this wiki article.Goatonastik (talk) 20:30, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: If this fact is well referenced, then be bold and add it! But is it possibly talking about the assassination attempt mentioned right at the bottom of this section - "He left Macau allegedly on suspicions that he was being targeted for assassination by Kim Jong-un; South Korean authorities had formerly indicted a North Korean agent by the name of Kim Yong-su who confessed to planning an attack on Kim Jong-nam in July 2010"?  Seagull123  Φ  22:13, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  That could be it! However, the article I referenced stated that it happened in 2011. I will have to try to find more information on it, but thank you!Goatonastik (talk) 19:27, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That's ok ! Maybe try the reference desk if you can't find any more information?  Seagull123  Φ  21:05, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a bit more detail here: "North Korean assassins reportedly tried to shoot Kim Jong-nam in Macau in 2011, although details of the incident are shrouded in mystery". The 2010 incident was a hit-and-run plot. The 2011 incident was apparently a shootout with bodyguards. It seems there was a separate plot in 2012. -- zzuuzz (talk) 21:21, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assassination Attempt 

message: The non-free photos were removed in 2004, when he was alive. However, he is now dead, so no new photos can be created, so can someone add fair-use images of him from before? -- 65.94.168.229 (talk) 22:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I've submitted a request for undeletion of a non-free photo of him. Chessrat (talk, contributions)  14:36, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That link doesn't take me to a specific request. Do you have the name of the file you want undeleted? Jonathunder (talk) 21:32, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That link leads to a specific request for me, not sure why it shouldn't work for you. Anyway, here's the file: . Chessrat (talk, contributions)  22:05, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The request at REFUND was rejected as the file requested has disappeared and is not in the archives; there's a suggestion for an alternate file by the respondent there -- 65.94.168.229 (talk) 05:07, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo needed (2017) 

message: "It is believed that Kim Jong-un, Jong-nam's youngest half-brother, became the new heir apparent due to this incident."</br>
This sentence is confusing because it is not apparent what "due to this incident" means.</br>
First, it's not clear whether it's "it is believed due to" or "he became the new heir apparent due to".</br>
Second, it is not clear exactly which incident this sentence refers to. It can be one of three, either "the Tokyo incident" in the former paragraph (not mentioned in the source 11), or the propaganda campaign about Kim Jong-nam's half-brothers' mother (not mentioned in the source 11), or the ROKS Cheonan sinking (mentioned in the source 11, but it can't be referred to as "this insident" due to its absence in this article).--Adûnâi (talk) 13:38, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I took this out. Kendall-K1 (talk) 02:02, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  A confusing and possibly incorrect sentence 

message: I realize that there are a lot of media sources telling all this exactly the same way, so this is difficult.  But there are some gaps I really wish we could fill.
1) Why was the Disneyland visit such an issue?  Was it the fake passport, the country (Japan) or the stated reason (Disneyland) that offended people?  (For example, why couldn't he just say something like he was looking at ideas for setting up recreation parks for North Korean kids?)
2) Is anyone concerned about the chemical sprayed at the airport?  (I mean, I'd have thought that if you spray a lethal poison at an airport that they would clear the place, shut it down, have hazmat on the scene, track down people who might have been exposed, etc.)
3) Why weren't the women who did the spraying/holding injured by their own attack?
Wnt (talk) 13:50, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:09, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

text: The police are still awaiting results of tests to determine what was in the spray, if there was a spray. Reports say that the suspects reconnoitered the airport the day before and sprayed each other. We still don't know a lot about the death. There is still no confirmation it was murder. Many of the reports appear to be false, such as the claim that needles were used.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:51, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some questions I'd like to see us answer 

message: should the page be semi-protected? this page is subject to vandalism,editorial bias, and is being edited a lot ever since it came out.L.S. inc. (talk) 14:47, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  protection? 

message: The section on his death (current version) is being expanded seemingly minute by minute with every piece of speculative and trivial passing detail that's being reported. Much of it is also in garbled English and reliant on some fairly ropey media sources. That could be copyedited, but I'm not sure it needs to be here at all and I'm tempted to cut whole chunks of it out. As noted above, WP is not a rolling news aggregator: all that is needed at any point in time is a clear summary of the latest, confirmed state of play, relying on the most up-to-date sources. And when that changes, superseded content and sources can and should go. N-HH talk/edits 10:37, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a lot of stuff that is now irrelevant should definitely go. I think, though until the investigation is concluded, it will remain fairly messy.--Jack Upland (talk) 11:25, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Detail on death 

message: Currently the article says this:
 In May 2001, Kim was arrested in Japan on arrival at Narita International Airport, accompanied by two women and a four-year-old boy identified as his son. He was traveling on a forged Dominican Republic passport using a Chinese alias, Pang Xiong, which could mean "fat bear" in Mandarin Chinese. After being detained he was deported to China, where he said he was traveling to Japan to visit Tokyo Disneyland. The incident caused his father to cancel a planned visit to China due to the embarrassment it caused him. 
It doesn't say what he was arrested for. One could guess that it was because the passport was forged, but that's just a guess; it doesn't say that. Is anything known about that? Michael Hardy (talk) 02:30, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: You arrive at the airport with forged documents, how is that not enough to get the police involved? --178.10.121.241 (talk) 20:10, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  You evade the question. Let us grant that that is enough to get a person arrested. That doesn't say whether that is what happened in this case. It doesn't say that authorities realized the passport was forged and that that was the reason for the arrest. Michael Hardy (talk) 02:36, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

text: "...arrested in 2001 in Narita International Airport in Tokyo for traveling on a forged Dominican Republic passport." Kendall-K1 (talk) 02:58, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why was he arrested? 

message: According to this , the ambassador was not recalled.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:20, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: But according to this it is confirmed recalled. 103.17.198.19 (talk) 16:27, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: And that article has now been updated.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:26, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Malaysian ambassador recalled? 

message: Anybody want to start working on what kind of poison fits the observed effects?  So far no lab reports coming out of autopsy yet.  Erxnmedia (talk) 20:02, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: This assumes that it was a poison. While I agree that this is by far the most likely explanation, other explanations should not be automatically dismissed. What can be rejected are most likely slow-acting poisons like Ricin, since that one takes more than a full day at the least, to the best of my knowledge. There have been reports of either some nerve toxin in liquid-gaseous form or just a "natual" toxin such as like the fugu fish has. Anyway, the only ones who can solve this mystery are the malaysian authorities and I assume that they have experts in analytic chemistry to clear that question. 2A02:8388:1641:4700:BE5F:F4FF:FECD:7CB2 (talk) 20:38, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The page itself is not going to include the speculation of random WP contributors as to what poison, if any, might have been used, and the talk page is not the place for speculation about it. N-HH talk/edits 20:48, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's your poison? 

message: The article about his death, and the aftermath, should perhaps become its own article, as it is becoming longer and longer every day. While I assume that currently, most visitor want to know how he has died exactly, in the future perhaps it may be better to split the article into separate ones due to its growing length. 2A02:8388:1641:4700:BE5F:F4FF:FECD:7CB2 (talk) 20:39, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The solution to people endlessly adding often superseded media-reported detail and speculation about his death to a bloated and confusing section on this page is not to spin it all off to another, separate page, but to pare it back here, as noted previously. Although generating excitement temporarily, this is simply not (yet at least) a world-shattering assassination of a major figure that deserves its own page. N-HH talk/edits 20:51, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The section is bloated, and much of the material is speculative or outdated. Secondly, this article is not actually very lengthy. There is no need to split off his death into a separate page.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:27, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

text: I also oppose a split. We should consider condensing via copy edits and selective trimming instead. Neutralitytalk 01:48, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Speaking of which, I've just done a lot of condensing.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:01, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done. Neutralitytalk 03:07, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

text: The prose size is now 25 kB, below the 40 kB size when splitting starts to be recommended. However, that is partly due to "trimming" of content to avoid the section becoming "bloated" - which would not be a concern if the article were split. I think there is grounds to split. The death meets the criteria in WP:EVENT, the apparent targetted overseas assassination of the brother of a world leader is not your average incident.  An obvious precedent linked by the media is the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko. There's detail about the investigation that is being left out and now that VX has been discovered one does not need to be clairvoyant to know that the details will expand and the coverage will continue. Fences&Windows 08:41, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the trimming took away important detail. If it did, it can be reintroduced. What it certainly did was take away material that had been superseded, as noted above. I agree this story has a way to run, but I don't think it should be an accumulation of blow-by-blow accounts and outdated speculation. If people want to create an article about the assassination, they have to talk about something other than length at this point. I think one article is adequate at the moment.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:16, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

text: Oppose People are most likely coming for the death as you stated, but after this has calmed down there will probably not be any more major updates (on account of him being deceased). Article is long but not absurdly so.Ryanharmany (talk) 01:59, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Length of the article 

message: The last annotation is marked with a Greek letter, even though it's a source. Shouldn't it be switched to an Arabic number?--Adûnâi (talk) 12:32, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: All the footnotes on the family tree have Greek letters, presumably to distinguish them from the numbered footnotes. They are listed at the bottom of the family tree; some are sources and some are just notes. The same family tree is featured on the Kim Jong Un page as well. It is a standalone feature, and that is probably why its footnotes are not integrated into the other footnotes.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:14, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Select family tree of North Korea's ruling Kim family 

message: * Support split per WP:WHENSPLIT. Coattail effect (talk) 12:48, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Further comment: the notability surrounding the unique circumstances assures that there will eventually be an independent article.  Splitting now will transfer much of the instability from this article to that one. 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E9E4:907C:2027:59D6 (talk) 16:59, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Note for future reference: the assassination was split from this article on 15 May with the edit summary "subject meets WP:NOTABILITY and was too long for that article".--Jack Upland (talk) 02:54, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split proposed 

message: I'm surprised by the lack of forensic evidence. The attackers must have disposed of various items (such as the poison container, cloths and possibly rubber gloves) after the attack.  Was there a search of litter bins in the area?  I have not seen any reports of this. Roberttherambler (talk) 18:48, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Those details will likely come out in a trial.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: There's still a lot of unanswered questions. However, we don't necessarily have to wait for a trial (if there ever is one). This suggests they only swept the airport for chemicals on the 24th:  The identification of VX nerve agent was based on the autopsy, not on anything found at the scene. Hence it sounds like they didn't find anything, and in fact might not have looked.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:27, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Forensic evidence 

message: Repost from the Alexander Litvinenko article, which does bear deep similarities (assassinations seemingly authorized or overseen by tyrants worthy thereby, arguably, in the Journal of Asylum, Refugees, and Assassination (JARA), of assassination), and the post ends on the same preventive cross-lingual factcheck treatment for the Kim Jong-nam Article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamtheclayman (talk • contribs) 12:22, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  ko.wikipedia.org/factcheck 

message: Hi Wikipedia,
About a month or two ago, I visited the Russkiy yazik (Russian) Langauge version of Wikipedia and found some deliberately misleading, false, fraudulent, and defamatory statements there about Alexander Litvinenko ru.wikipedia.org/factcheck (. It practically looked like it was written by the FSB, and had _very little similarity_ to the English Wikipedia Treatment of the Subject. For instance, there was a statement, maybe well coerced, above the fold by Litvinenko's 'father' saying that Litvinenko was an embarrassment, and there was a whole lot of invalid uncertainty and disinformation about the mechanism of death and the traceability of the death back to the Inquiry's identified culprits, and the involvement of Vladimir Putin.
Of course, ru.wikipedia.org is under pressure itself. Authors in Russia can get killed for editing Litvinenko article, like the dozens of journalists now who have disappeared or been killed in mysterious circumstances. But I can't keep monitoring this for neutral point-of-view myself, and i'm past the limit of machine translation: there are natural langauge 'tricks' of bias that I can't catch, in the interstices of machine translation capability on Translate. So, what I'm proposing, and what I've done here, is include a link at the very top to "ru.wikipedia.org/factcheck", which redirects bilingual volunteers (RU>EN + EN>RU) to that page to fact-check Wikipedia across Langauges. The Neutral Point of View on Litvinenko, following the exhaustive UK Litvinenko Inquiry, should not be any different on the basic facts, and any divergence should be subject to questioning, if the ru.wikipedia.org seems to be deliberatively misinforming Russian Langauge Readers. 
This link is syntax-positioned just before the deep name, in local endonym, of the Notable Person or Event. This Litvinenko cross-link model might serve as a template for other cases. Let me know if you have any suggestions for the syntax. The ideal thing would be to link at the name itself, but that's proven difficult, given the existing display code. 
This Litvinenko scandal, more than any other, that has traction in a popular, more neutral reconsideration of Putin's Plutonium + Polonium Reign. Who has access to Polonium, aside from the authority chain of centralized state control, and how could this have been done, and remain unprosecuted locally, without authorization and protection at the highest level, extending to a ru.wikipedia.org Disinformation Campaign? So please, to keep this from repeating again, if you would, please consider supporting this syntax for cross-lingual factchecking in versions of Wikipedia that proliferate through the world, and may be subject to Governmental disinformation campaigns. Certain articles, like the Litvinenko Article, show Revision HSTRY that is indubitably driven by politics, not facts. 
Another that merits close fact-checking attention right now would be the assassination of Kim Jong-Un's older, regime-critical brother, Kim Jong-nam ko.wikipedia.org/factcheck, without any JARA (Journal on Asylum, Refugees, and Assassination) 007 License. North Korea is claiming that the death was a heart clot (in vulgar English, a heart attack). We know from Indonesia that's disinformation, and it's so inculpatory to disinform the Public about this that Kim Jong-Un might be subject now, if not before, to a JARA 007 Recommendation. It's hard to mistake VX Nerve Gas for a Heart Clot in a toxicology report. Unless, perhaps, Wikipedia means to claim that these are ambiguous in toxicology testing, or that there's a conspiracy in Indonesian Toxicology Labs to bring down Kim Jong-Un. 
ko.wikipedia.org might not penetrate into Hermit Kingdom, and might be written almost entirely by the Republic of Korea, but it's still worth a factcheck link, while cross-lingual accounts might diverge, so that bilinguals can participate in either langauge contesting Neutral Point-of-View with Facts, as they come in.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamtheclayman (talk • contribs) 17:06, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  ru.wikipedia.org/factcheck / ko.wikipedia.org/factcheck

message: Ok, if you want to experience a totalitarian disinformation campaign, machine translate this, and if it looks ok for a moment, go back into the Page HSTRY:
https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EA%B9%80%EC%A0%95%EB%82%A8_(1971%EB%85%84)
Using Google Translate, there are _massive_ structural differences in the treatment of Kim Jong-nam in ko.wikipedia.org compared to en.wikipedia.org. Relying on automated translation, we have _just this_ on ko.wikipedia.org, as of about 02017年03月05日 17:35 AM UTC:
Gimjeongnam (men's things金正, 1971 year 5 month 10 one - 2017 Mon 213 days ) is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea Kim Jong Il's eldest son Jong前and chief leader of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea Kim Jong-un is the half-brother.
When we have this above the fold on en.wikipedia.org: 
Kim Jong-nam ko.wikipedia.org/factcheck (Chosŏn'gŭl: 김정남; Hancha: 金正男, Korean pronunciation: [kim.dʑʌŋ.nam] or [kim] [tɕʌŋ.nam]; 10 May 1971 – 13 February 2017) was the eldest son of Kim Jong-il, leader of North Korea. From roughly 1994 to 2001, he was considered the heir apparent to his father.[3] Following a series of actions showing dissent to the North Korean regime, including a failed attempt to visit Tokyo Disneyland in May 2001 by entering Japan with a false passport, he was thought to have fallen out of favour with his father.[4]
Kim was exiled from North Korea c. 2003, becoming an occasional critic of his family's regime and an advocate for reform.[5] His younger paternal half-brother, Kim Jong-un, was named heir apparent in September 2010.[6] Kim's death in Malaysia in February 2017 is claimed to be the result of poisoning at Kuala Lumpur International Airport.
What? Why would these be so different? Why does the ko.wikipedia.org summary think it adequate to say, 
"Kim Jong-nam (age) is the DRPK's Last Leader's eldest son and chief leader of the DPRK Kim Jong-un is the half-brother."
No explicit mention of period of time 01994 - 02001 of being heir apparent. No mention of being a conscientious dissenter and regime critic. No mention of exile (or cause). No mention of change of heir apparent o Kim Jong-un. Most remarkably of all, no mention of poisoning. 
Why is ko.wikipedia.org lagging behind the rest of the world by three weeks above the fold?
And what in the world is this ______ utter lack of concern for truth, mixed with ulterior motive and agenda:
"At around 9 am on February 13, 2017, Kim Jung- nam died shortly after rubbing her face with two women buried in their bare hands at the Kuala Lumpur International Airport in Span , Malaysia . There is also a theory that he died from botulinum [9] , and that he died after being sprayed with poison. [10] Kim Jong-nam's assassination was carried out in early 2012, the year following Kim Jong Eun's succession in 2011, the National Intelligence Service said. The National Intelligence Service also revealed in April 2012 that Kim Jong-nam sent a letter to Chairman Kim Jong-un to ask him to live. [11] It is also said that some have died from the poisoning ."
In ko.wikipedia.org, Kim Jong-nam died in early 02012? What? And Kim Jong-nam sent a letter to Chairman Kim Jong-un asking him to let Kim Jong-nam live? It's like the Hermit Kingdom is using its own Calendaring system, and living in its own alternate reality. The first is true.. they do have their own Calendaring system, and if you ask me, some of the naming on that calendar is really cool, if depraved and depriving. The second, the living in alternate reality, is not so much; not so true. They live in the same reality we do. I think Wikipedias can agree to that wherever we're living at the moment. 
Basically, if you have already read ko.wikipedia.org in the first waves of publicity, even if you later hear or read something convincing that Kim Jong-nam was assassinated that penetrates through into the Hermit Kingdom, you won't blame it on Kim Jong-un, because it happened 5 years ago in 02012, before Kim Jong-un was even in power, and Kim Jong-un protested in a heartfelt letter to their father. We know that's true! It was on wikipedia.. i don't know, i think i read it back when this fake propaganda crisis started crossing our borders. They're always after our Dear Leader. 
Keep running this through human and machine translation. Let's work on some moral reaccounting standards on wikipedia's subdivides, as if these were financial statements in each langauge block that have to be audited, as factional profit and loss statements that have to be cross-checked for neutrality in spectacular cases, at least, in environments known to operate without a free media and with governnmental interference in media, like Russia, of course, where most journalists who go critical live in fear of being turned into an example: 
https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EA%B9%80%EC%A0%95%EB%82%A8_(1971%EB%85%84)
Adam D. Clayman (talk) 17:47, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is the ko.wikipedia.org version missing a summary above the fold recognizing the notably spectacular nature of this death? 

message: Here's what an Authoritarian in an off-center langauge can do. They can keep Wikipedia factual and reliable on so many matters that langauge block speakers come to rely upon Wikipedia as a first, even final, source of authority, but then, when an opportune moment presents, on a knotty problem for their Authoritarian faction, they can jump on Wikipedia with 3 fake accounts, then another 3 fake accounts, then another 3 fake accounts, simulating real user behavior (if they're sophisticated), making it look like there's just a series of authentic confusions or even, as with Litvinenko and Jong-nam, sincere, specific counteracting reliable information that grants this Authoritarian faction immunity and privilege when it matters most.
So, the Authoritarian in a slightly off-center regional langauge, or a Langauge that's global, center, and central to hectomillions but contained heavily within an Authoritarian-controlled media block (see: Росси́я) can be "captured" selectively by Authoritarian Editorial controls, to 'launder' narratives, stories, mythic and fundamentally cynical (selfish, self-interested) information that favors the Authoritarian regime. 
The Litvinenko article was way off base, probably for years. This Jong-nam article might be off for another day or two, before Wikipedia can pull it back into Neutral, and subside the fake accounts.
The syntax for crosslingual factcheck is important. It helps assure that Wikipedia isn't being selectively compromised by Authoritarian Disinformation Campaigns. Either you have Wikipedia, or you don't. If you don't, you know you're in a filter bubble controlled by your Government.
Someone much more technically sophisticated than me will want to figure out how to monitor for "coverage holes" in the access logs indicating domestic spoofing. If i were the FSB, and i wanted to respond to the Litvinenko article coming uncomfortably close to true, I would start serving a version of the article at some fraction of the access logs, to make cheating harder to detect, or in full. The access statistics should be teling if anyone attempts that on a high-priority cross-lingual check, and there are few problems more important for remaining in Conscience across billions of lives than this: being able to draw upon the same (or a very, very similar) neutral point-of-view on the CORE Facts of a case. 
Another example is the contentious treatment of the Nakba and the Israeli Independence War, which have been and may well be presented differently, on different pages, for a while more. But they really should be a joint page: "Nakba - Independence War", or "Independence War - Nakba", one day, before this Peace finally closes. It would help close the conscience gaps that are holding back peace in that section of the Middle East. You could randomize the order of presentation of (Independence War, Nakba), but the CORE Facts and Map Bias Presentation Orders must be the same, or side-by-side more realistically, to keep everyone in tune of the same basic layers of conscience on fact. It's indisputable that Israel justly considers this their day of Independence, and that no other State lists their dirty laundry prominently in their Independence Day Articles. But it's also true that Palestinians consider the Independence War a Disaster for their families, over generations of nonabsorption into lands they thought they'd be welcomed within. It's also a helpful step in the closure of and regulation of two-state conscience, now that the Palestinian Refugee Population has exploded (HSTRY assymetrically) for lack of absorption by neighboring states. I think that's pretty fair and neutral, and honestly, all Independence Movements have dirty laundry they are hiding, and I don't except any of my own, where i'm eligible for Citizenship: States United, España, Portugal, المغرب al-Maghreb, and Yisrael. This isn't moral relativism: there are vast differences, per tribe culture and per each tribe's and nation's or nation of nations' capita, that are measurable in life, death, disease, landlessness, and varieties of real enslavement in each of these Cases. 
I just checked the 01948 Palestine War Article, and it's much improved from how i last remember it. It's a different problem to handle this intralingually than interlingually, and i now i have more reason to trust and believe that the en.wikipedia.org has gotten good at intralingual crosschecks on HSTRY. On quick inspection, it looks like a simplex, good, and true Joint HSTRY Peace. It wasn't like this years ago: the stories were separated rather than brought into a neutral POV of one major story that branches into more than one, and far more than two sides of two sides. I'm just curious about why there isn't a link attached above the fold to make the connected coverage (Nakba, Independence War) more accessible. They names are presented in static print, in bold, but not 'hot-jumpable'. But editorially, i can accept either stance, as each has merits and is understandable, and if anyone wants to learn more about one or more strands, getting deep into the word-cloud separations, it's not inaccessible, or being hidden, like some of these Authoritarian 'world clouds' based on abused word clouding. I don't think in my childhood I learned the word Nakba until I graduated College, and I spent time when I was young speaking to Church Audiences about the 01948 Palestinian War. It's not that I didn't look: I went hunting for everything I could find by Palestinian HSTRYans, and did everything I could to find the central truths, but I still couldn't find the word 'Nakba' and extensive resources on the Nakba in 02001 - 02003, and now the endonym for the 01948 Palestine War is thankfully very prominently available. It wasn't out of Authoritarianism either: it was just inaccessible, and i'm not entirely sure, without further study, if that was any identifiable person's fault, but rather just an Epic System fail. I wasn't an inattentive student, either. I was looking and listening, and i never learned the word Nakba. The format in 01948 Palestine War seems to do the job for stabilized intralinguals, but if there could be a fact-check driver that includes link-outs for intralingual 'unreasonable doubt'- and conviction-checking, that would be helpful. Some of these divergences undermine matters that are approaching the Social Verdict level, and if one community believes one conviction, and another community has a completely incompatible verdict, and these stances are just within range of accessibility upregulation of cross-checking, maybe there should be a routine syntax for that. If there is already, and i have no doubt there must be something, i'd love to learn about how it's done. I don't even know how to search for crosschecking. 
But now that i have searched for cross-checking, i found this analogous Chess article, about endgames generally involving two Queens. There are a large number of Queen communities out there that are falling short on Century Assuring/Altaring Life Movement Unity, i.e. Calmunity. Cross-checking could help these Queen Calmunities reach their real Joint Endgame, measurable in Century Assurances, with no breach in the Covenants Assuring Life Motion:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-check
Adam D. Clayman (talk) 18:23, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's the danger of Authoritarian Wikipedia? 

message: I've removed this about the two female suspecs:
:Both are represented with Malaysian lawyers for their trial, as Malaysian laws do not allow foreign lawyers to practice in their country.
This tells us nothing. It is not remarkable that they have lawyers. And most countries do not allow lawyers from other jurisdictions to practice there. In the USA, lawyers need to be admitted to the bar in that particular state.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:48, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lawyers 

message: I think we should leave ARNKA out. The problem isn't sourcing, it's relevance. Kendall-K1 (talk) 14:23, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, not directly relevant.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:37, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  ARNKA 

message: Please stop edit warring over the cause of death. My own opinion is that we should not list a cause in the infobox until we have a reliable source. Right now I don't see one. The citation in the infobox doesn't say his death was due to VX poisoning; it says the Malaysian police say it was due to VX poisoning. Kendall-K1 (talk) 15:26, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cause of death 

message: We have a source that says his birth date is "May 10, 1971 — not on June 10, 1970, as the passport he was carrying when he died stated." The passport is obviously fake since it has a different name on it. But even if it were legit, it's a primary source and not as acceptable as the Washington Post. If we can find a reliable source that says June 10, 1970 we can include that but we would have to give both dates per NPOV.
Also, the citation for birth date belongs in the Early life section, not in the infobox or lead. Kendall-K1 (talk) 12:47, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth date 

message: The autopsy is part of the investigation, so it doesn't make sense to separate them. The release of suspects is both part of the investigation and part of the dispute. And it is confusing to have events recounted out of chronological order.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:29, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it does need to be restructured. I don't know if chronological is best but it's a good start. I also wonder if some of the detail can be cut back. Kendall-K1 (talk) 10:52, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I think roughly chronological, e.g., maybe all the autopsy stuff can be together. Yes, it can be cut back massively. It's not just the detail, it's the way it's been written as the accumulation of news, leading to lot of redundant verbiage. For example: "Following Kim's death, Malaysian police arrested a woman at Kuala Lumpur International Airport on 14 February 2017 in connection with the attack. The woman, a 28-year-old named Đoàn Thị Hương, had Vietnamese travel documentation." This doesn't need to be two sentences...--Jack Upland (talk) 12:43, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I did the first three paragraphs of the Death section. Kendall-K1 (talk) 16:26, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've reworked the structure. It's closer to chronological now. The main problem with the previous structure was that the identification of the female suspects came after the conclusion of the autopsy. I've compromised with the chronology by keeping the autopsy and the diplomatic dispute together, but I think this is necessary to understand what happened. I have also removed a lot of verbiage. A lot of the prose was unnecessarily wordy, and a lot of the information was out of date. Still more work could be done on this.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:24, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restructure chronologically 

message: Following the reworking of the "Death" section, I'm not sure what to do with "South Korean response". As it is basically rhetoric, I'm inclined to remove it. It would be different if South Korea had taken concrete steps in response.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:00, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  South Korean response 

message: There are several loose ends with the text as it stands.
*What happened to Aisyah's boyfriend, Muhammad Farid Bin Jalaluddin? Reports are that he was released on bail, but was he ever charged with anything?
*What happened to the "unnamed Malaysian man believed to be a chemist"? Was this story genuine?--Jack Upland (talk) 06:17, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Loose ends 

message: removed the following information from the Assassination section:
 Kim arrived in Malaysia on February 6, 2017, traveling to the resort island of Langkawi on February 8. On February 9 he met with an unidentified American national, reported by the Asahi Shimbun to be an intelligence officer.
Personally, I'm partial to the earlier revision. To me, it looks rather abrupt to simply have the section begin with "On 13 February 2017, Kim died after being attacked by two women with VX nerve agent at Kuala Lumpur International Airport in Malaysia while traveling from Macau under a pseudonym.[39][40] ", with basically no context. And while I'm aware that it's an imperfect comparison, something like John_F._Kennedy#Assassination or Malcolm_X#Assassination both provided more information on the assassination in the main article, in addition to linking to the article dedicated to the assassinations themselves. I believe an extra sentence or two on KJN's time in Malaysia would not be unwarranted.
Agree/disagree? PvOberstein (talk) 06:05, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think information about a reported spy belongs here. Kim's itinerary is not necessary either. What we need are the basic facts. The section as it stands basically covers that, given that we still don't know much. The difference with JFK and Malcolm X is that the story of their deaths is complete. In this case the trial is ongoing.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:12, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: That's pretty much exactly my reasoning. Kendall-K1 (talk) 13:03, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: We hardly even know the basic facts. I think adding information from reliably-sourced third-party sources that give some background to the trip is very helpful to readers, and after all the removed passage is not stating these as facts but just that particular sources are saying this. I would support adding back the removed passage. BabelStone (talk) 13:22, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: If we add everything that anyone has said about this assassination, this article will be longer than Barack Obama. Kendall-K1 (talk) 14:03, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say it's worth keeping at least one sentence about his trip to Malaysia (like when he arrived). It doesn't have to be a detailed itinerary, I agree, but as it stands the section is pretty devoid of context. Just the basics of why he was there. PvOberstein (talk) 14:27, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed information on trip to Malaysia 

message: At the end of the "personal life" section, this page states that he had "several tattoos, including two of dragons". Even though this is sourced, the source can't be accessed so I suspect that this is vandalism. Consider that. 2A00:23C7:5882:8201:4014:108F:A0D8:24A (talk) 16:19, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It is sourced — the link just has to be fixed — and it is credible that this information could come from a post mortem. If you google it you can find it reported by several sources. I don't think it is vandalism.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:08, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Kim Ju-ae which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 06:36, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress