Talk:Rebetiko

message: #The origins of rembetika in cafe aman and smyrniotika.
#The rôle of rembetika in politics (and especially World War II).
#Laws relating specifically to the rembetes and their culture.
#Details of popular instrumentation, and the development of the form (see below).
#Effects on later Greek music (especially laiki and the New Composers).
#The U.S. experience, especially the relationships between emigrant rembetes and both jazz and klezmer.
#A list of prominent composers, musicians, and singers would be nice.
#Non-Greek language rebetika (Turkish, Ladino) and the necessary multilingualism of early performers
#The importance of Istanbul in rebetika. Though it's fashionable to talk about Smyrnaika, some of the most famous rebetika performers of all time, including Rosa Eskenazi, were based primarily in Istanbul before moving to Greece. eliotbates (talk) 10:49, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Omissions

message: This is all just off the top of my head, and my own relevant books are all in boxes in the garage waiting for it to be converted into a library (kochinin Befti — and that gives a clue as to where I learnt my Greek). Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 14:10, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: Popular music
Rembétika was Greece's first popular music, arising in the urban areas of Greece. Its popularity has waxed and waned, as has its relationship with the government. Newer forms of popular music include laïkó and éntekhno.
[edit]
Rembétika
Rembétika evolved from traditions of the urban poor. Refugees and drug-users, criminals and the itinerant, the earliest rembétika musicians were scorned by mainstream society. They sang heartrending tales of drug abuse, prison and violence, usually accompanied by the boxoúki, a sort of lute derived from the Byzantine tambourás and related to the Turkish saz.
[edit]
Turkish origins
By the beginning of the 20th century, music-cafés were popular in Istanbul and Smyrna, primarily owned by Greeks, alongside Jews and Armenians. The bands were led by a female vocalist, typically, and included a violin and a sandoúri. The improvised songs typically exclaimed aman aman, which led to the name amanédhes or café-aman. Musicians of this period included Marika Papagika, Agapios Tomboulis, Rosa Eskenazi and Rita Abatzi.
In 1923, many ethnic Greeks from Asia Minor fled to Greece as a result of the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922). They settled in poor neighborhoods in Pireás, Thessaloníki and Athens. Many of these immigrants were highly educated, and included songwriter Vangelis Papazoglou and Panayiotis Toundas, composer and leader of Odeon Records' Greek subsidiary.
One Turkish tradition that came with the Greek migrants was the tekés, or hashish dens. Groups of men would sit in a circle and smoke hashish from a hookah, and improvised music of various kinds was common. Out of this music scene came two of the earliest legends of modern Greek history, Artemis and Markos Vamvakaris. They played in a quartet with Batis and Stratos Payioumtzis. Vamvakaris became perhaps the first star of Greek music after beginning a solo career.
::The above is exerpted for convenience.  If you go to the page, you'll not that just below it, they refer to inconsistently refer to "laiko", then to "indiyoftika".  At the top, they discuss dhimotika.  There needs to be a consensus reached fast, and based on the general Greek usage, I would go with plurals for all genres except Neo Kyma -- which is, of course, a literal translation of "New Wave" in the singular. --Jpbrenna 04:49, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "One Turkish tradition" etc, sort of suggests that the Greeks were suddenly corrupted, while they had in fact been growing their own for a very long time, and smoking it as well. Markos refers to cannabis being cultivated on Syros, for instance. The Real Walrus 15:44, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excerpt from the [[Music of Greece]] page 

message: Jp, you can't change the name of the article in the text to Rebetika, while leaving the title as Rebetiko. I've protected this page until you and the other editors have decided on a title. Also, can you tell, when you moved the page, did you do it by cutting and pasting, because we seem to have lost the edit history? SlimVirgin (talk) 05:38, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
:I am pretty sure that I did it by going to "Move" after breaking the redirect, not by copy/paste.  That's usually what I do: I did it earlier today on another article in the Achaemenid dynasty series.  I'll check my edit history and see though. --Jpbrenna 07:08, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Protected

message: Verbatim - except IM name withheld to protect her privacy.  She is a ntive Greek-speaker, fluent in English, with a degree from Oxford (which you might think would have given her more polish, but that's for a different discussion)
:damn. the more I think of it the more I get confused!
:hmm, I think to rempetiko/ta rempetika is almost interchangable. But if you were to say laiko, you'd :only mean a particular song
:but it depends on the context, so I can't say for certain
:I'd say the canonical use would be the plural
:usually the singular needs something following
:most often tragoudi, or more rarely palko (scene) 
:laiko tragoudi, or laika. To rempetiko, or rempetika
--Jpbrenna 18:45, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transcript of  from Yahoo! Msgr Offline Convo 

message: I've been holding off from editing until there's some consensus on my suggestions and the article title.  As there seem to be two voices here arguing for a change, and none arguing against (I've twice contacted the person who complained, asking him to argue his case here, but he seems not to want to), I'll make the move myself over the weekend.  I'll allow another day or so to give people a chance to oppose.
Then, if there's no objection to my suggestions above, I'll get started on some of them. Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 08:21, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Beware Greeks bearing articles!  Look what they've done: , very cleverly supporting neither dog in this fight.  Actually, I'd go with that, except "Rebetic Music" and "Lay Music (for laika)" would sound rather stilted in English.
--Jpbrenna 17:02, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move 

message: When someone wants to add a section, they can, but a host of section headings with no text just looks messy and ugly (a stub has to have some content).  The "list of songs" is surely absurd; it would run into the thousands, at least. If someone wants to make a separate list, they're welcome — but it would be a quixotic enterprise. Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 7 July 2005 11:48 (UTC)
:The stubs will be filled in soon.  They will help my friend, who isn't too familiar with Wiki markup, to do her thing more easily.  As for the list of songs, that wasn't my doing.  It should be a separate list. --Jpbrenna 7 July 2005 12:51 (UTC)
I merged the zeibekiko and hasapiko stubs into this article. It seemed a logical spot; neither form seemed to have enough substance to be its own article. Hope this helps - Her Pegship 20:08, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-existent sections, etc. 

message: Is on hold.  My friend has expressed reservations about some of the things asserted in the Greek article.  She also feels that the list of performer bios will only be filled in by some "absolute fanatic of obscure rebetika figures."  Little does she realize that is exactly the sort of person we rely on to get things done on Wikipedia ;) --Jpbrenna 8 July 2005 20:16 (UTC)
:Correction.  The material she has trouble with is in the English article, not the Greek.  Also, she objects to me using quotes around my paraphrase of her comments, so please ignore them.  I know you all are beginning to think that "she" is a figment of my imagination or manifestation of multiple personality disorder, but I assure you she does exist, and hopefully will soon prove her existence by doing some translation. --Jpbrenna 22:42, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mulitilingual coordination 

message: The article currently claims that all rembetika dances were either zeimbekiko or hasapiko; surely this is wrong?  Of course those were by far the most common, but I've certainly heard tsifteteli and karsilama (and sometimes hasaposerviko).  Of course, modern tourist versions are full of syrtakis, but we can ignore them... --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 21:17, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dances 

message: The introduction says that the first rebetes appeared after the revolution of 1821.I'm not sure but i think that they first appeared between the refugees of the Asia minor disaster in 1922.... that's when the songs themselves first appeared in any case, so i think it makes more sense...Padem 08:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rebetes 

message: Loukas Daralas is mentioned here as a signficant person in this area.  If somebody is familiar with him, you wish to add something to the article, and the AFD discussion.  --Rob 11:22, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Loukas Daralas]] 

message: Can someone provide me with a source before I remove the following claim:
"They first appeared after the Greek War of Independence of 1821." Miskin 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing serious in the literature about the subject to support this claim. During and  after the years of the 1821 Revolution, Greek songs were almost all folk songs, demotika. Rebetiko was born out of the urbanisation of mainland Greece in the early years of the 20th century combined with the waves of immigrants who came from Asia Minor after the Greek defeat by the Turks, in the 1920s, and brought with them various musical idioms. The themes, the instruments and the verses of the Rebetika bear out that the birth of Rebetiko came about from the meeting of indigenous, Greek music and Asia Minor music, with mostly the latter defining the genre. -The Gnome (talk) 13:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questions 

message: I'm marking with bold my suggestions herebelow for the opening paragraph. The current definition is not accurate and not well written either, in my opinion. (The case for rebetika appearing "after 1821" for instance is baseless.)
{ Rebetika were the songs of the Greek urban underground, written or sung by the so-called rebetes (Greek: ρεμπέτης rebetis, plural: ρεμπέτες rebetes). Rebetes were unconventional people who lived mostly at the margins of society or even outside it, as outlaws. The main pioneers of rebetika have been the immigrants from the Greek diaspora of Asia Minor. 
The songs, often compared to genres like American blues, are full of grief, passion, romance, and bitterness. They are generally slow, melancholic songs about  the misfortunes and the  affairs of the heart of simple ordinary men. Many early rebetika songs were about drug use, especially hashish, which led Rebetiko to be criminalized during the dictatorship of Ioannis Metaxas in 1936. Not until 1947, when Manos Hadjidakis, through a series of lectures and articles,  introduced rebetika to a wider audience  were these songs accepted as a legitimate music style. Damianakos Stathis noted that the rebetika songs of the first period were mostly the singing expression of the lumpenproletariat. A lot of rebetika songs are for dancing, zeibekiko and hasapiko being very common, but they also include tsifteteli, karsilamas and other dance styles. }
-The Gnome 19:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you mean Stathis Damianakos, the Marxist sociologist. I also think there must be a better word for the rebetes than the awful Marxist lumpenproletariat, which has connotations that are mostly innappropriate, if not downright insulting to people who had enough to put up with. The Real Walrus (talk) 12:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Better opening paragraph needed

message: Is the claim that Metaxas banned it due to some influences from Anatolía really substantial? The claim somebody made that it was because he wanted to make Greek music more "in line" with Western classical traditions is quite strange, since Rebetiko has some similarities to Romantic classical music played on guitar. For example if you compare this by Markos Vamvakaris, to this by Fernando Sor they're not completely alien. Many of the folk musics of Europe have a little bit of cross over with classical music on guitar, including Flamenco, Canzone Napoletana, etc. The idea that it was banned due to the assosiation with drugs seems more realistic to me. - Gennarous (talk) 07:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My good friend Nikos Politis says Metaxas wanted everyone to listen to Mozart. He thought Western classical music was  superior to Anatolian or any other folk music. The Real Walrus (talk) 12:39, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Metaxas banning

message: Would it be within Wikipedia policy to include a basic discography of rebetika music?  The problem of course is that many Greek records quickly go out of print or are available only in Greece, but there are still a number of good records that are commonly available in the U.S. -- for instance, collections by Rough Guides and on Rounder Records. Maybe the criterion should be to list things that are available on CD via major U.S. based internet vendors. I think it should include only original recordings, not ones by later interpretors.  Strawberryjampot (talk) 22:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: After some discussion on the New Contributors Talk Page, I propose to put a discography of useful introductory Rebetiko music CDs on this page, and maybe put some CDs of individual performers on their individual pages.  These will be 1) CDs which are likely cureently to be available to people in English speaking countries, and 2) CDs, mostly issued in Greece, which may be currently hard to find but should be mentioned because of their importance (e.g. the original 6-volume Rebetiki Istoria series.)  Any comments?  Strawberryjampot (talk) 23:19, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've started the discography but I don't mean to stop discussion; comments on it are still welcome.  Strawberryjampot (talk) 17:05, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: After starting the disography it occurred to me that making recommendations or evaluative comments could be considered OR/POV, so I took them out and just left the basic listing.  What do people think?  Strawberryjampot (talk) 17:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discography? 

message: Form and spelling are varied, but current Google results are:  
*rebetica 6,080
*rebetico 7,180 
*rebetika 201,000
*rebetiko 246,000
*rembetica 10,200
*rembetico  9,500
*rembetika  165,000
*rembetiko  149,000
So it looks like the leader is rebetiko, though those results may be influence by the very fact that that is the name already chosen for the Wikipedia article. However, the main Library of Congress Authorities subject heading form is Rebetika, which I think is a very important authority.  Also, a search for rebetika on Amazon apparently is mapped to all forms of the word, and though I haven't counted, looking over the results seems to indicate that rebetika is the most common English language or transliterated form in currently available books and recordings.  Overall, for these reasons, I'd personally prefer rebetika, but I don't think I can make a strong enough case to justify changing it at this point.  Strawberryjampot (talk) 23:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The name again 

message: I've put some of the historical background of rebetiko into the article, but it still needs work and references, both to sources and to other Wikipedia entries. I'll try to do more on it later, but anyone else who has the knowledge is invited to add to or revise it.  Strawberryjampot (talk) 14:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical background 

message: Does this page really need both a list of performers and a Famous Performers box? I'd prefer just the latter; it would look more attractive on the page than that long list.  Strawberryjampot (talk) 17:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Performers and region 

message: I don't think the essay-like article tag is justified here. Looking at the linked style guide I don't see that the article is seriously out of line with it. But I won't remove it until others have a chance to give their opinions. The primary sources tage, on the other hand is justified, but I think that virtually everything stated in the article could be supported by citations of the works referred to in the Further Reading and Discography sections (some of the CDs noted include liner notes or even booklets which are knowledgable enough to be considered scholarly.)  Someone just needs to take the time to put in the citations.  Strawberryjampot (talk) 00:03, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tags 

message: According to the etymology of the Greek word acknowledged by most scholars - rembos, rembazo, spelled with mu-beta - the only correct English spelling is REMBETIKO (sc. tragoudi, song). I'm afraid a Google search is not a reliable proof for anything, and the Library of Congress serves practical goals and has nothing to do with orthography: the system used there is based on Ancient Greek spelling and is never used for transliteration of Modern Greek words into English. Although a form with -b- is by now also common, it is much more preferable to write the words "rembetiko", "rembetika" (pl.), "rembetes" with -mb-. --Vladimir Boskovic (talk) 15:33, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally I think you are right.  I'll put a question on Wikiproject Greece's talkpage because I'm not sure about the WP policy for the transliteration of Greek words into English.  Happy editing! Pel thal (talk) 15:43, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: To the best of my knowledge, there's no universally accepted standard for transliterating modern Greek into English either for Wikipedia or in the world in general.  If this is the case, then I think the most sensible thing is for Wikipedia to use the English forms of Greek words which will be most familiar to Wikipedia users in English speaking countries.  Such things as the LCSH entry and the occurrence of forms in google searches and on music CDs published for an English speaking market are a useful gauge for actual usage in English speaking countries.  These sources don't give a completely clear answer as to which is the standard English usage, but as I remarked above, it's arguable that rebetika is the best candidate.  I'm not arguing at present for a change now -- I don't think we should tamper with the present article terminology unless we can reach a consensus on it -- but I did want to make the point that the choice of name form should be based on actual English language usage, not on scholarly linguistic arguments, just as on the basis of usage Wikipedia refers to Homer as "Homer" and to Athens as "Athens", though these word forms have never appeared in any period of Greek.  Strawberryjampot (talk) 15:27, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, except that there are already two common forms in English (rebetiko and rembetiko) and there is no objective reason why one should avoid the form closer both to actual Greek pronunciation and to the word's origin in Greek--just as we write "Penteli" and not "Pedeli", "Pankrati" and not "Pagrati". The examples you mentioned (Homer and Athens) are not the most fortunate ones, as they refer to Ancient Greek. The argument of "actual usage in English speaking countries" is also a rather slippery one, as English has billions of both native and non-native speakers and no universally accepted literary standard. Furthermore, Google is by no means reliable in terms of actual usage, as it is widely used by English speakers (native and not) outside of English speaking countries. --Vladimir Boskovic (talk) 12:45, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please correct the spelling: the correct form is "Rembetiko" 

message: Since this issue has been brought up above, here are some hints about it. The word ρεμπέτες is of course Modern Greek. The obsolete hypotheses that attempt to link the words bouzouki, zeibekiko, and rebetes with Αncient Greek roots are nowadays considered totally fringe by contemporary lexicographers. Triantafyllidis foundation (a very respectable source) proposes that rebetes may have a Slavic origin (confer rebyonok, rebyata). But since this is not certain, there are many alternative hypotheses (with varying degrees of credibility). Here is an informal collection of them. --Omnipaedista (talk) 19:11, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added some brief comments on this with references -- I don't think most readers of the article will be interested in much more.  If I've made any mistakes in the format of the notes or in the Greek (it's hard to type Greek using that little alphabet at the bottom!) please correct them if you notice them.  Strawberryjampot (talk) 03:50, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the comment above. It is true that Triandafyllidis' dictionary is a respectable source and that it proposes a Slavic origin, but it does not make much sense. First, the word is Russian and not common Slavic, and Russian had generally very little impact on Greek. Second, it is unlikely that the tradition of rembetika would get its name from the points of cultural contact (Crimea and the Black Sea) so distant from the actual centers of rembetika music (Asia Minor); Turkish, Arabic, or some other Eastern Mediterranean language would be a more logical candidate. And finally, it is hard to explain the disappearance of the -y- element from the Russian word, not to mention that due to its phonetic rules the actual Russian pronunciation of the first vowel is closer to -i- (ribyata, ribyonak)--Vladimir Boskovic (talk) 12:57, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymology of rebetes

message: "On the other hand, other rebetiko songs, even ones describing criminal activity, became quite popular among the general population. One example is the song, "Varka sto Yialo," meaning "Boat on the Beach," which has a catchy chorus and is still popular and has gained general acceptance. While it is common to hear this song on the radio and in nightclubs, this song actually describes the shipment of drugs, via a boat, at night, from the Middle East."
Is that so? As far as I know this popular song is by Mikis Theodorakis, composed in the 60s, not a rebetiko proper song. And the lyrics talk about a romantic encounter and subsequent immigration. I have not found any other song by that title with the content described here. So unless someone provides details or references, I am inclined to delete this part. Schizophonix (talk) 13:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Greek genres pages are a little bit of a mess as of now. I recently redid the "Music of Greece" template and plan on helping redo all of its related pages with the help of some editor friends. In the meantime, you can help by removing identifying and correcting inaccuracies as you have done already in this instance. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:56, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inaccurate information 

message: I've changed back the description of Elias Petropoulos from "one early scholar of rebetica" to "the leading scholar" since 1) he wasn't particularly early, and 2) surely he is the leading scholar.  If anyone objects, please discuss here.  Strawberryjampot (talk) 02:57, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Petropoulos 

message: I've added back the discography (couldn't revert) for two reasons. First, I don't think on principle such a major change should be made without discussion. Second, please note that the discography was added after a call for discussion of it on this talk page, and the discography was added only after a period for discussion of it had passed with no one objecting to it. This I think is additional reason why the discography should not be simply unilaterally deleted without discussion. Whether it should be included is a legitimate question, but under the circumstances I think it's reasonable to ask that editors who want to delete it to seek consensus via discussion for their action first.  Strawberryjampot (talk) 02:54, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Information lacking a source can be removed without a discussion. The problem is that a discography of a genre can never be complete. There will always be more and more songs released. It would be original research and extremely pov to say here are some rebetiko albums and songs. Look at other genre pages. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 05:14, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Οι μάγκες δεν υπάρχουν πια. So they are not recording any more records. So a discography could be complete. The Real Walrus (talk) 07:25, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: And what about everyone else? You can't be selective. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 14:26, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

text: What do you mean? The Real Walrus (talk) 21:25, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have asked for some outside opinions from WikiProject Music and have also asked for their opinion regarding the list of performers. These two sections seem like they should be categories if anything. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 20:08, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I myself am not for a discography section on this page. There is probably a large amount of this music released, and it is no use having CDs and stuff constantly piled on this page (if it comes to that stage, that is). And one of the sections is a red carpet with blue stains (metaphor); that doesn't make the page much better. I would totally be for categories concerning this. By the way, there is nothing wrong with putting down innovators of the genre as long as it is sourced and not in a discography format. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 20:29, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see any compelling reason to keep them. Having a discography and list of performers may seem convenient for someone who is looking for a record, but this is an encyclopedia, not a database of rebetiko albums. That, combined with the fact that most don't have pages leads me to conclude that it is not worth having them. I just picture down the road when random editors start removing performers, adding others, etc. It is a can of worms. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:02, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think the answer to the above objection is that the discography is specifically labeled as a select one, giving a few Greek recordings which may be hard to find but are of fundamental importance, as well as some authentic anthology recordings which are available, and are likely to remain available, in English speaking countries, and which have English notes.  In other words, the discography is specifically labeled as not being a database of recordings, but a suggestion of where to go to find some of this type of music, and if subsequent edits try to turn it into a database, they can be reverted with the justification that consensus has been reached on what the discography is supposed to be. Without such a discography, readers new to the subject who read the article and say, "Gee, this sounds cool, where can I hear some of the music?" are going to be left without an answer. One way to look at it is that the discography is like a bibliography which includes suggestions for further reading, which I believe is within Wikipedia practice.  It's just that in this case the further reading happens to be recordings.  In fact, it's also the case that many of the recordings listed have substantial written notes which are one of the few sources in English for more information on the music, so they really are to some extend "further reading" and scholarly written sources.  Strawberryjampot (talk) 23:25, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discography again 

message: The picture should show a trichordo, not a tetrachordo. And preferably a better bouzouki. The Real Walrus (talk) 14:40, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: Having returned to this page after not looking at it for some time, I wanted to offer some topics for discussion of its current state.
Overall the article is now good and useful, I think, but there are several areas still needing work.
I was the editor who put the Needs Sources tag on the article, and it seems more justified than ever.  There are no sources cited for the sections Taxim or Rhythms of Rebetiko, the whole long section 
The Postwar Period has only two footnotes, towards the beginning, and many of the other sections seem rather meagerly documented.  No doubt documenting sources is tedious, but it has to be done well for an article to be taken seriously.  I've documented things myself to the extent I have the knowledge and the sources available to me, but I can't do any more.
I myself don't think the red links are a problem, since I think it's useful to have a full list of performers, even if many of them aren't (yet) in Wikipedia.
The discography is still under discussion, so I suggest leaving it in until something like a consensus emerges. This issue can of course be further discussed.  Meanwhile, I'd suggest that if anyone wants to add to the discography, they keep in mind the introductory paragraph describing what sort of materials it includes (and if you don't agree with it, please discuss it here.)
I still feel the same about the name as I stated in the "The Name Again" section, above: it would be best to base the name on actual English usage, which would argue for Rebetika. But I also still feel it might not be worth the trouble to change it.
One of the greatest lacks in this page is of pictures. What pictures ought to be included seems to me pretty much a no-brainer. There are three rebetika photos famous above all others, which are familiar to every serious fan: (1) The Smyrna Trio of Rosa Eskanazi, Semsis, and Tomboul, 2)  the large group photo of rebetes in Piraeus in 1937, including Iovan Saouz and Mathesis, and 3) the quartet of Stratos, Markos, Batis, and Artemis. (Personally I'd also like to see the picture of Crazy Nick, Marinos the Moustache, and their dog, though this is more rare and maybe belongs more in the mangas article.) Those three pictures are ubiquitous on the internet and are old enough so that they may be out of copyright, but I'm not very knowledgeable about permissions issues and don't know what needs to be done to get them into Commons so we can use them.  If anyone has the knowledge to do this, it would be great.  
Personally, I think it would also be appropriate to include photos of a few of the very most major rebetica figures, even if there are already photos of them in individual articles.
I hope the above points will create some useful discussion. Thanks to everyone for reading this, and thanks in advance for your thoughts. Strawberryjampot (talk) 17:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Strawberryjampot! I added some photos; it was a nightmare to find some of reasonable quality. The Notes-section is a mess; I'll try to boil it down – will take some time. →Alfie±Talk 17:32, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

text: Finished separating notes from references and removed numerous op cit. according to WP:Footnotes#Style_recommendations. I removed the citation-template; I think that the article is not lacking citations, but there should be some collaborative work on giving exact locations within references – I was too lazy to check the article's history to find out who actually wrote the main text. For example a general reference to Schorelis' ‘Ρεμπέτικη Ανθολογία (Rebetiki Anthologia), in Greek, four volumes’ leaves the reader at least confused. I named all references according to WP:REFNAME in order to reuse citations more than once. I did not succeed in cross-reference to sources within notes (that's why I left 'Klein op cit.' in the last note); maybe somebody with a higher IQ than mine understands WP:REFNEST. Alfie↑↓© 13:35, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Call for discussion on various issues 

message: Dear all,
please discuss the following.
In a recent edit Billarasgr stated in the edit summary “I changed the dates to of rebetiko development because they were wrong. After 1960 rebetiko does not exist in its the "pure" form.” I reverted the edit, essentially because it was unreferenced and left a note on his talk page:
----
Hi Billasgr! I reverted your last edit, since it was not referenced. While I agrre with you that “After 1960 rebetiko does not exist in its the "pure" form” you shouldn't change something which is referenced. Be bold, but don't forget WP:REF. ;-)
He answered on my talk page:
----
Dear Alfie,
the reference that states that rebetiko developed in 60 etc has to be removed altogether. This is a book that is not from a native i.e. Greek author. To put it in simple terms that guy just doesn't know what he is talking about. I am Greek and rebetiko player for more than 20 years and I can tell you that rebbetiko does not exist after 50s. Then you may call it "arhontorebetiko" that mostly reflects music listened by middle classes. I would be happy to discuss with you in more detail if you wish.
For now take care and please revert my correction ;)
Cheers, billarasgr
----
OK, the article quotes “that guy” ten times. Being not a native Greek doesn't disqualify anybody. Gail Holst is Australian, Risto Pennanen Finnish, etc. Though I agree with you personally, WP can't deal with personal opinions (see WP:NOR). If you can come up with a reference, fine. Alfie↑↓© 14:33, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: What is stated to "start in the 1960s and develop further from the early 1970s onwards" is "the so-called rebetika revival", not the rebetiko music, in this sentence. Perhaps it's misleadingly written, but it doesn't seem to be nonsense from a "guy that just doesn't know what he is talking about", it only reflects the idea that the custom to label all these songs under the term "rebetiko" dates only from the 60's.--Phso2 (talk) 23:02, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. For me the lead sentence is clearly written, but I'm not a native English speaker as well. Alfie↑↓© 13:54, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: "Like several other urban subcultural musical forms such as the blues, flamenco, fado, and tango, rebetiko grew out of particular urban circumstances"
this is not at all correct. in fact whoever wrote it has no idea what they are saying.
these different kinds of music cannot be all jumbled together. much less be called "subcultural"
nobody from montevideo or buenos aires considers tango to be a "subcultural musical form"
nobody in lisbon considers fado to be "subcultural"
nobody in southern spain considers flamenco "subcultural"  
nobody in the south of the u.s. would call blues 'subcultural'
for example :
you can walk around a town in andalusia and people will be randomly singing flamenco. and they dont have to be a gypsy. or be a part of any 'subculture'
you can easily hear fado all over lisbon- anytime of year
you can see people dancing the tango at the port market in montevideo. any given weekend. or being played in a cafe.
i dont think the word subcultural is properly understood by the author.
i dont think the author properly understand the word 'culture' either. 
or music.
the analysis should be kept to rebetiko, the question of its role in greek society, and its origins, 
the job is difficult enough without muddling the waters trying to make incorrect corellations to other musical genres.
the article, in greek, makes no such absurd claims about fado or tango,or flamenco being a "subculture"  much less labeling the most typical music of a country subcultural.
way to go and annoy millions of people all at once by denigrating their national musical style to 'subculture' status.
we are not talking about hardcore or deathmetal here. these are musical styles that define culture itself. the cultures of entire countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 (talk) 06:17, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi. The article uses the term "subcultural" only in connection with its origins. See also the the articles about blues, flamenco, fado, and tango. The Greek article is a bad example, because it is based on not even a single (!) reference. If you know Greek, please see :el:ΒΠ:ΠΗΓΕΣ, especially Όταν προσθέτετε περιεχόμενο. Don't worry about “millions of people” – the article has on the average 4,400 viewers/month (about twice as much as the Greek article). Alfie↑↓© 11:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  urban subcultural musical forms? 

message: i really don't know 
but
Alfie66
will give you contradictory arguements to explain it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 (talk) 09:35, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: perhaps you should begin by understanding what is meant by "subculture"? Would you label all these style as "national music" in the time of their beginnings? Sure not.--Phso2 (talk) 12:50, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  what is the need for this article to label other countries' national musical traditions as subcultural? 

message: While users contribute positively, constructing the Greek articles  (user:Woohookitty for WPCleaner (v1.09)) , Future Perfect at Sunrise change - commute them unconstructivly. - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rebetiko&action=history   - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hellenic_languages&action=history ---- be more cautious for better edits... - --SymposiumP (talk) 12:24, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  contributors 

message: I think that the first source Vintage Recordings from a Greek Underworld. ARKO CD008, CD & book isn't  qhite reliable  for the credibility of rebetiko. --CanarianIsland (talk) 00:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: it is a § on taximia, not on modes. You are mixing taximia and modes in a poorly written style. A taxim is not a mode, a mode is not a taxim. I wonder if you understand yourself what you write.--Phso2 (talk) 21:29, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Forget modes and taxim, you confuse arabic music with turkish, the point is: to add Dromos which is the same thing and separate the musical spheres as origin Furthermore taxim isn;t turkish!.. it is just an  arabic word. --CanarianIsland (talk) 21:33, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disturbing sources  

message: An image used in this article, , has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests April 2012 
;What should I do?
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
* If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
* If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.
To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant 
This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 00:46, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: File:Marika Papagika.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Rebetiko. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110629170722/http://www.music.ucsb.edu/projects/musicandpolitics/archive/2010-1/zaimakis.pdf to http://www.music.ucsb.edu/projects/musicandpolitics/archive/2010-1/zaimakis.pdf
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.agc.org.au/web_images/Gauntlett+paper.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:01, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Considering that Islam pretty much destroys the music of all the cultures it conquers, it is MUCH more likely that this music originated with non Muslim  Greeks, Armenians, Gypsies and others who lived under Ottoman rule and were not barred by their religion from having either singing, dancing, drinking and otherwise having fun.
As an example of how strict Muslims can be (but not always are) an Iranian who was playing music in Saudi had his hands smashed by the Saudi religious police. Sucks to have been him!71.174.131.160 (talk) 10:37, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Object to music having its roots in Turkish Music