Talk:Principality of Abkhazia

message: These are Georgians. They are not Abkhazians. Acbas and Cacbas... Where are they? False info.
Hello, information on the principality of Abkhazia (Abaza) is in detail in the Russian Wikipedia, if you want to read the book by Frederic Dubois de Montperet "Travel around the Caucasus" I will give you his words about Abkhazia Abaza - one of the main Caucasian peoples, calling themselves absne. Georgians call them Abkhazeti (should be Abkhazebi - comp.), Tatars - Abaz, and Russians - Abaza. They inhabit the Big Abaza, between the Caucasian ridge and the Black Sea, Avkhazia or Abkhazia (Avasgia), which continues to the southeast, and Little Abassa, at the foot of the northern slope of the ridge, extending in the east to Jumantau and Svaneti. Abaza are the Abkhaz and its sub-ethnic groups Sadzy, Dzhgerdov, Abzhuians, etc. AnosAnosid (talk) 11:24, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have specific suggestions what to improve in the article? Alaexis¿question? 16:56, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:08, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Please provide a quote from Şerafettin's book that supports the claim that Arabic language was the "literary and written, and since 1454 official writing." Alaexis¿question? 10:45, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Arabic language

message: The principality was created in 1463, yet the user keeps inserting that the Georgian language "ceased to exist" in Principality of Abkhazia in 1451 (?) and Georgian Orthodox Church supposedly too. Questionable sources are being used, which look self-published, and no quotes or citations are added. Bailer99 (talk) 22:04, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: 1,5,6,9 article there are sources about the penetration of Islam in Abkhazia since the 7th century, not to mention the more modern period. You don't read sources and write non-existent things, you can be banned Alsho093 (talk) 22:54, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

text: Stop vandalism and engage in self-deception, you can only provoke moderators to take extreme measures. Alsho093 (talk) 22:56, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Islam may be first appeared in Abkhazia in 7th century, but it did not spread there during that time, Abkhazia was Christian. According to the source: It was with this strengthening of Ottoman influence in the 16th- 17thcenturies that the gradual dissemination of Sunni Islam really began.This was a period of dramatic decline for Christian culture in Abkhazia,although in the early 17th century the Abkhaz were still paying the‘kharaj’, a duty paid to the Ottoman Empire by non-Muslim subjects. Bailer99 (talk) 22:57, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

text: The first evidence of Abkhazian Muslims was given in the 1640s bythe Turkish historian Evliya Qelebi, whose mother was an Abkhazian.On his travels he recorded that the Abkhazians had a mosque and that among them were “many Muslims.” This Muslim population, accordingto Qelebi, was hostile to Christians, in spite of not recognising theQur’an or being of any religious denomination. Other sources wouldseem to indicate, however, that although the Christian presence was onthe wane, and the dissemination of Islam increasing, evidence oftraditional Islam was more apparent among the higher levels of society by the end of the 18th century than among the population at large. TheAbkhaz rulers were not in a position to decline Islam, a fact witnessed bythe forced conversion of Shervashidze-Chachba, Abkhazia’s rulingprince, to Islam in 1733, following the destruction by the Turks of Elyr, a pilgrimage-site of particular religious significance to the Abkhaz near Ochamchira. Bailer99 (talk) 22:58, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Вы сами себе противоречите, у меня нет времени тратить на школьников время. 108 статья абазах написано, я уже кинул жалобу Alsho093 (talk) 23:02, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: How do I contradict myself? Just because Islam appeared in 7th century, does not means it spread in populance, it only spread by 1640s because of Turkey, but not in majority of population. The prince Sharvashidze converted in 1733. At most 17th century should be written as a date of Turkish islamization of Christian Abkhazia. Writting a date before that contradicts sources. Bailer99 (talk) 23:07, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

text: http://apsnyteka.org/1174-tatyrba_a_islam_v_abkhazii.html good luck reading, it was written by the Abkhazians themselves Alsho093 (talk) 23:04, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: George Hewitt is already very pro-Apsua and anti-Georgian writer, you know. Bailer99 (talk) 23:08, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: What about «apsua» and pro-Georgian? Have you started insulting minorities and promoting racism again? The conclusion has been made with you, I will inform the moderators Alsho093 (talk) 23:10, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not insult anyone, Apsua is self-designation of the people. Moreover, George Hewitt is their supporter, that's all I wrote, and he is opponent of Georgia. Just check online. George Hewitt is self-styled so-called Honorary Consul of Britain in unrecognized "Republic of Abkhazia". He is their "government" member basically. That's why I wrote that he is pro-Apsua. How is this an insult? Bailer99 (talk) 23:17, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

text: You have engaged in personal attacks many times already, and now you also baselessly accuse others of "insults". Writting the self-designation of people can not be an insult. Also, adding sourced information that Islam only spread in 17th century is not an insult too. The Abkhazians were Georgian tribe and Christian, not Muslim, so it needed clarification, the source says that Islam spread in 1640s and prince adopted it in 1733. That's it, it is based on a source in the article. Ok, let's stop this, don't make any more controversial edits. Bailer99 (talk) 23:26, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I will not even answer fictional fairy tales, the Abkhazians are an Abaza-Circassian people. It's already clear with you, let the moderators figure it out Alsho093 (talk) 23:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not a "fairy tales", it was studied by scientists (Diachkov-Tarasov, Davit Bakradze, Pavle Ingorokva, Zviad Gamsakhurdia, Mariam Lordkipanidze and others), but this is offtopic, focus on the topic of discussion if you have something more to say. Bailer99 (talk) 00:00, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Dubious claims being added into article with unreliable sources

message: @Alsho093, @Bailer99, what you've been doing here is an edit war and I'm pretty that both of you have violated the [[WP:3RR|three-revert rule which could lead to blocking. I'm now reverting the article to my latest version. Please propose changes one by one here at the talk and we'll discuss them. Alaexis¿question? 22:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The version of 20 January 2024 has been restored. This version of infobox preceded the attempts to add unsourced/unsupported material by some users and edit war. If they still make controversial and unsourced changes, it will be an edit war on their part. Bailer99 (talk) 23:43, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit war 

message: :The problem is that user Alsho093 attempts to insert the claim that Abkhazian language was an official language of principality, without providing sources backing it. They attempted to provide some quotes from some works, but these quotes did not say that Abkhazian was an official language of principality. There is no source and no evidence for this claim, but the constant readdition of this unsourced content causes edit war. The discussions have proven futile as the user Alsho093 failed to demonstrate any source. Let's remember that Abkhazian language became written language only 150 years ago, when the Abkhaz alphabet was created by Russian general. The writings in Abkhaz are very obscure before that and the first one was only recorded in 17th century in Arabic script by Turkish traveler Evliya Çelebi. There is a source provided that states that Georgian was official and literary language, yet the user tries to reinsert his own claim that official and literary language was actually Abkhaz, without proper sourcing. Bailer99 (talk) 23:56, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: baths like Ivan the terrible's, leave the article as it is, not you and not him do not understand Wikipedia, you only accelerate your ban with him.Make it like this, since you don't know how to do it GohanIlimI (talk) 23:59, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Just don't reinsert the claim that Abkhaz language/Abazgi languages was official language, since this is unsupported by sources. Bailer99 (talk) 00:01, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't care, I inserted information on the sources that you did. The tales of Ivan the Terrible, as you say. I advise you to leave the article in this form, it doesn't affect anything anyway. There are books to read, and what you publish is already unreliable . . GohanIlimI (talk) 00:06, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

text: For some reason, I do not receive your messages, stop writing Ivan the Terrible's fairy tales. Leave the article like that, live quietly, and so no one reads it except you, in a year only 13 people have read this article and then the same ones GohanIlimI (talk) 00:08, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, I did not write this message personally for you, I wrote it for the general explanation of situation for everyone who wants to see. That's probably why you did not receive the message. Second, I support leaving the article as it is right now, but I think the user Alsho093 might not support this since they have already engaged in days long edit war over this. However, I agree with you that the current version of article is ok and leaving the article as it is right now. Bailer99 (talk) 00:11, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

text: No one asked him, and neither did you, you are vandals from ancient Germany. Let it be like this GohanIlimI (talk) 00:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I wonder if you know the Wikipedia rules so good, why don't you know that that might be personal attack and get you banned. Bailer99 (talk) 00:17, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Official language

message: I'm not sure that the source supports the new text here. @Alsho093, can you provide the page number where the circumstances of the acquisition of Suhum-kale by Kelesh-bey are described? Alaexis¿question? 20:15, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: there are no pages, here is a link to the source and a quote " что и случилось после неудачного похода турецкого флота (3 военных корабля и 8 гребных судов) к берегам Абхазии 25 июля 1806 года. Келешбей сумел подготовиться и выставил у Сухумской крепости многотысячную абхазо-адыгскую армию. Флот вынужден был развернуться и уйти.» https://www.apsuara.ru/portal/book/export/html/609 Alsho093 (talk) 20:19, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Here is the same quote from another source «Kelesh-Bey was able to gather 25 thousand warriors in order to repel the Turkish aggression. Among them just 10-12 thousand were the Abkhazs, the others were hired Circassians.» https://www.academia.edu/79319736/ABKHAZIA_FROM_THE_16_TH_CENTURY_TO_THE_BEGINNING_OF_THE_19_TH_CENTURY_1_Abkhazia_in_the_16_th_17_th_Centuries Alsho093 (talk) 20:26, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

text: The last source is 517-518 chapter of the text, so it will be easier to find Alsho093 (talk) 20:29, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! Alaexis¿question? 20:56, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Takeover of Sukhumi by Kelesh-bey 

message: None of the information provided in the section "16th-18th centuries" have sources. Please provide sources of each claim and information provided. It would be better if the whole section is deleted and rewritten Lemabeta (talk) 19:03, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: There were sources there, but some person deleted all the photos and sources about Abbas, adding his own, who could it to be Alsho093 (talk) 07:20, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you suggesting that i deleted it? Lemabeta (talk) 07:41, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Your English is bad, I probably suggest you return it Alsho093 (talk) 08:24, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

text: It doesn't seem controversial, I'll try to add sources when I have some time. You may want to add a section-wide source needed tag. Alaexis¿question? 21:13, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourceless section of 16th-18th centuries.  

message: @Gohanlliml What source proves that the self-identification of the principality was by that time "Аԥсны аҳратәра (Abkhaz)
Аԥсны (Abkhaz)" 
Moreover, the principality itself was as much Georgian as it can be, Since the culture of the nobility was Georgian and their were proudly part of the Georgian noble society.  I have no problem with both of them being mentioned as long as you provide source of the principality being mentioned in its existence as the mentioned name that u provided.  Lemabeta (talk) 15:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: If something it should be written instead of Apsni. as Abassa, since most historical sources known it as Apkhazta Samtavro and Abassa. No source ever mentions the provided name. Lemabeta (talk) 15:39, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: are doing nonsente, Abkhazians do not speak Georgian, what is a "self-designation" do not change, the 3rd edit is already from you, do you know what it is? GohanIlimI (talk) 17:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: What does it have to do with nobility or something? if Abkhazians speak Abkhaz, return the information GohanIlimI (talk) 17:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

text: This is a topic that is not even discussed, fortunately there is the nation of Abkhazia and the Abkhazian dictionary, return information in the Abkhazian language  GohanIlimI (talk) 17:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: None of this information are relevant. We are talking about the principality of Abkhazia which was culturally Georgian principality where Abkhazian ethnicity also lived alongside Georgian sub-ethnic groups. The image that you inserted is about Russian Empires Abkhazian Okrug not about the Principality. Lemabeta (talk) 17:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: You aren't providing sources and making changes out of your will. I provided the source where Vakhushti says that Principality of Abkhazia alongside Georgian name of Apkhazetis Samtavro is also called Abasa. I am not reverting your edits, i am further clarifying. Show me that the 16th-19th century Principality of Abkhazia is once called by the name Apsni or keep the article how it is.  Lemabeta (talk) 17:46, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Abkhazians do not speak Georgian, Abkhazians speak Abkhazian and call themselves Apsua, and the countries are Different, what does Vakhushti Bagrationi have to do with it? if we are talking about self-designation Abkhazians? GohanIlimI (talk) 17:55, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

text: What kind of racism is there towards Abkhaz language? The template "Native name" is written in the Abkhaz language spoken by the people, change the template to Abkhaz. change GohanIlimI (talk) 18:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: You are getting me wrong, its not about self-identification of Abkhazians. We are talking about the self-identification of the Principality of Abkhazia. If you have a source where any historical account saying that the Principality of Abkhazias self-identification was Apsni, you can add it. We know that the identification from numerous sources of the principality was Apkhazetis Samtavro(აფხაზეთის სამთავრო) or Abasa. Provide a source of nobility or any source of the period of Principality of Abkhazia being called as Apsni Lemabeta (talk) 18:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Just because Sharvashidze dynasty might have been ethnic Abkhaz dynasty that doesn't take away the fact that they were part of the Georgian nobility and culturally Georgia who had a close ties to Georgia therefore Principality of Abkhazia is part of Georgian history as well which means Georgian identification is necessary because its the most accurate historically, Just like another branch of them was also nobility in Kartli known as Machabeli and also another branch was nobility of Kakheti known as Apkhazi. Lemabeta (talk) 18:02, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Once again, what does the dynasty and Shervashidze have to do with it? If we are talking about the Abkhazian language and what did the people call the state in their language? No need to break the rules of Wikipedia, let's return the data in the Abkhaz language, or the article will be reviewed for authenticity, or in extreme cases, it will be deleted altogether because of you GohanIlimI (talk) 18:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a source of it that it was called Apsni during the 16th-19th centuries? If you have a source of it add it next to the Georgian name of it and there's no problem at all.  Lemabeta (talk) 18:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: the Abkhaz language is not Georgian, the name should be in the Abkhaz language, this is the essence of the template, have you read the rules of Wikipedia at all? GohanIlimI (talk) 18:12, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Abkhazian language isn't Georgian. I am asking you to provide a source from the period of 16th-19th centuries proving that the self-identification of Principality of Abkhazia was Apsni as you said it. If you can not provide the source, there's no point in discussing it furthermore. Lemabeta (talk) 18:18, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: You deleted it, here's a prime example  Read the title GohanIlimI (talk) 18:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Friend... Look bellow the "Apkhazetis Samtavro" There's Abasa written there Lemabeta (talk) 18:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

text: In the template Lemabeta (talk) 18:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

text: To avoid the further discussion, i will also write it in Abkhaz too as in Apsni, so we don't go on discussing this forever Lemabeta (talk) 18:45, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self-Identification of the Principality