Talk:Kosovo/Archive 10

message: This article is protected since May 30 because of disputes on its introduction. Please refer to /Archive 9 and /Intro_changes_proposal for more information. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 09:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unprotected now. -- ChrisO 07:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection and introduction of article 

message: Finally the good editors of Wikipedia came to their senses. I remember a time when Kosovo was a part of the FRY even though it was 2005. I'm glad that it really does say that it is part of Serbia.  Peace. --Косово 04:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There has been agreement. If you continue revert warring, POV-pushing and inserting original research, action will be taken against you. I suggest that you accept that a majority consensus has been reached and move on from there. -- ChrisO 07:37, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: We all know why Ilir, give it a rest. Litany 11:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Congradulations

message: I think it might be worth reminding people of the basic rules of Wikipedia. A lot of the arguments over the previous version of this article were, I think, largely due to these policies not being followed. I've rewritten the article to make it strictly wikipolicy-compliant, and I intend to ensure that those policies are followed on this article:
* Don't add partisan commentary, and ensure that your contributions are written in a neutral tone. We're here to write an encyclopedic article, not a partisan screed. (WP:NPOV).
* Any additions must be sourced, cited and verifiable. (WP:CITE, WP:V).
* Any sources must be reliable. Newspaper reports, government documents, books and reports from well-known international organisations are generally regarded as good sources. Commentary on ersonal websites or the personal views of individual editors are not. (WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NOR.
If we follow these policies we should be OK. -- ChrisO 07:37, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the version that I just inserted, and is being blindly reverted by Litany does comply with all the points above. The source I provided can't be more verifiable, reliable, and the most important document. I will have to revert back to that, as it is more legitimate than any newspaper claim that some people like to cite here. Regards, ilir_pz 11:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Basic rules of engagement

message: For the record, I think it's worth mentioning how other reputable and reliable encyclopedias describe Kosovo's status:
:Encyclopedia Britannica
:Kosovo, region within the republic of Serbia, Serbia and Montenegro (formerly Yugoslavia, 1929–2003), occupying the southwestern portion of the republic...
:Britannica Student
:The province of Kosovo is part of Serbia and Montenegro (formerly Yugoslavia), a country in the Balkan region of Southeastern Europe.
:Britannica Junior
:The province of Kosovo lies within the republic of Serbia, in eastern Europe. 
:The Oxford Dictionary of English
:Kosovo, an autonomous province of Serbia ...
:The Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable
:An autonomous province of Serbia bordering on Albania ...
:Concise Dictionary of World Place-Names
:A geographic, and predominantly Albanian-populated, region under Serbian sovereignty—but, in effect, a European-run colony or protectorate under UN administration since mid-1999 ...
:World Encyclopedia
:Autonomous province in s Serbia ...
:The Macmillan Encyclopedia
:An autonomous province of S Serbia, in the Union of Serbia and Montenegro. 
:The Crystal Reference Encyclopedia
:Province of S Serbia...
:The Columbia Encyclopedia
:Albanian Kosova, Serbo-Croatian Kosovo i Metohija and Kosmet ... S Serbia and Montenegro, in Serbia.
:The Hutchinson Encyclopedia
:Autonomous region 1945-1990 of southern Serbia ...
In short, there isn't a single reference source that I can find that describes Kosovo as anything other than a province in Serbia. This emphasizes just how far outside the mainstream Ilir pz and Ferick's position is. -- ChrisO 12:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Two more examples below: --Evv 04:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: And all these sources are more reliable than Kosovo's Constitutional Framework adopted by the UN administration, and approved by UN's Security council???? Am I saying something wrong, or the Constitutional Framework of Kosovo is the most important law, and especially over any Encyclopedias that you have cited here? I do not think my mainstream is far from the truth, yours is, definitely, because it ignores this main document. Greetz, ilir_pz 13:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a collection of legal documents and resources. Encyclopedias contain interpretations of laws and documents. If all big news stations, international organisations and encyclopedias interprete the Constitutional Framework as Kosovo being a province of Serbia, why should we disagree? That would come close to original research, which is not allowed (Wikipedia:NOR). Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 14:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Just for the record, am I correct that it is your opinion that all encyclopedias above  and in addition the BBC, CNN, the IMF, the UN and the EU  all misinterprete the Constitutional Framework? Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 14:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: "Interpreting" a document is original research. We go by what our cited, verifiable and reputable sources tell us. Our sources tell us, unanimously, that Kosovo is a province in Serbia. Therefore we also say that Kosovo is a province in Serbia. It's as simple as that. -- ChrisO 19:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Envoy, your point about the use of "province" might be valid if the term was no longer used. But it clearly still is. Take a look for example at the BBC's latest profile of Kosovo, published on 25 July 2006 - it starts "Kosovo, a landlocked province within Serbia..."  The fact that some may regard it as a POV term is not a good reason to not use it - we're merely reflecting current common usage. As for the issue of the Serbian government's involvement, it does still have a presence - it subsidises some social services in the Serb-populated areas of Kosovo, presumably in addition to whatever the Kosovo government provides. Hence the wording "little direct involvement". -- ChrisO 21:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Although you are absolutely right, I see no harm in showing a bit willingness to compromise and change The province is the subject of a long-running political... to Kosovo is the subject of a long-running political.... It does not change the meaning, context or interpretation of the sentence, but would satisfy Envoy. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 21:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What other encyclopedias say

message: User:Ferick keeps removing the sentence that describes the Pro-Serbian site listed at the bottom of the page as "with the aim of reminding the foreign public once more of the gravity of situation of human rights facing Serbian and other non-Albanian populations in Kosovo-Metohija.", which is simply what the site is doing.
May I remind everyone that every single Pro-Albanian link has an explination of what it's about and it is not fair to let an Albanian, Ferick, delete sentences that describe Pro-Serbian sites, especially when they are harmless like this one. I rather think the descriptions of the Pro-Albanian links are very inflamatory, like "Save Kosova", and everyone knows it's Kosovo in English, and not Kosova which is in Albanian (Imagine if someone wrote Kosovo in Serbian, imagine what the Albanian users would do...), or maybe "American Council for Kosovo, increasing the awareness of the recognition of Kosovo's independence in the American society.", which suggests that Kosovo is already independent and what is left is for it to be recognized, and that is also inflamatory. But I'll stop here, because I don't care much about how the Pro-Albanian links are described, and I would appreciate the same amount of respect when regarding the Pro-Serbian links. Please don't erase descriptions. --serbiana - talk 00:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Bormalagurski, first of all I must say I appreciate it a lot that you came here to discuss this matter. Indeed a lot links contain descriptions, but all of these are neutral descriptions. When you say remininding of the gravity of the human right... you also make a statement there, rather than give a neutral description. I added a more neutral description to the website link, namely focusses on the human rights situation of Serbian and other non-Albanian populations in Kosovo-Metohija.. I hope that is ok with both of you. Regards, Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 07:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

text: With regard to the Albanian links, Save Kosova is the name of the website, not a description, Free Kosovo is a translation of the name of a website and I agreed with you on the description of the American Counsil on Kosovo, so I also changed that one. The rest is harmless in my view. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 07:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We shouldn't be devising our own descriptions of external websites - if you put in a link to google.com would you call it "Really big search engine"? The convention is to use the website's own name for itself, in this case "Serbian Government for Kosovo and Metohija" (as appears in the title bar of the English version). -- ChrisO 07:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I must say that I am very surprised by this comment. A lot of wikipedia articles contain descriptions of the websites under External Links, see for example USA. Also, why did you then remove only that one description, an not all descriptions in that section? Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 07:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I felt that the website's self-description was enough - it's the official Serbian government website on Kosovo, just as it says in the description. As for the others, I'm very pushed for time right now! I'll go through them later today. -- ChrisO 08:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I do understand that you are busy, selectively removing a description of a Serbian site, but not of the Albanian sites is potentially very inflammatory here. I suggest we go through all of them on the talk page here and then change them all at once. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 08:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

text: BTW: The convention is not to use only the name of the website. The Wikipedia Manual of style says this on External links: External links should summarize the website's contents, and indicate why the website is relevant to the article. (See:WP:SG#External links). So I am not in favor of simply removing all descriptions. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 08:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I support Cpt. Morgan and his views. --serbiana - talk 18:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Not fair

message: Most of the world has, by now, agreed that Milosevic's regime was repressive. So the word repressive is not a matter of personal opinion but a descriptive word that accurately describes a regime. I am surprised that, of all things out there, you have taken upon yourself to defend a Repressive Regime.
Salon – Rage against the regime
US Congress 
The Financial Times-Milosevic turns screw on news
US Office in Pristina- Kosovo,Irag and the values we share
Contrary to your believe, the word repressive has been used by just about every media when describing Milosovics administration. It may pain you to learn this, but it’s a matter of fact not an opinion.Ferick 20:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Saying Milosevic's regime was repressive is a fact not an opinion

message: ...is that User:Ferick admittedly and openly refused to follow/read Wikipedia's policies. I know that they are not a necessity - but it is to my opinion that they should be honored, or at least read for Wikipedia's sake.
:==Hello==
:Could you please read up (if you haven't already) WP:POV and WP:NPOV? --HolyRomanEmperor 16:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No,thank you very much!Ferick 18:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

text: This is expected. Ferick doesn't respect anyone or anything, and should be banned forever. He who denies to go by the rules is not welcome at Wikipedia. --serbiana - talk 16:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

text: There are two users above... Wow... --serbiana - talk 22:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Now who's the immature person here... --serbiana - talk 20:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A very interesting thing to be added... 

message: Not to open up pandora's box, but is there any chance a small note could be inserted that the word province is not being used in the common sense? At first glance it could appear to some readers (e.g. me) that Kosovo and Vojvodina are the only two administrative divisions, rather than the only two of a special type. Maybe a reference to "Administrative subdivisions" on the Serbia page. Just to make it clear that Serbia has districts as well.
echalon
The correct way to put it would be "Kosovo is one of two autonomous provinces of Serbia...", but the Albanian loby wouldn't like that... --serbiana - talk 23:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of the implications of changin the current text, the present version is indeed confusing. When I first read it, I could not fully deduce its meaning either. I will be bold and change it and if opposition arises, we can seek a compromise later. TSO1D 02:24, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice, I wouldn't have the guts to change it, or else Ferick, Ilir and the Albanian gang would be on my back. This is a step towards neutrality and resistance towards the Albanian loby. Good job, TSO1D! --serbiana - talk 02:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not mean to take a side in this dispute, I just wanted to make the text more comprehensible. I don't believe that my change had an inherent POV, and I don't believe either side will advocate reverting to the previous version which was clearly misleading. TSO1D 17:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't need to pretend that I am neutral, however I don't believe you are in any position to assess neutrality. You have a strong bias as do other users on both sides. I came here with few preconceptions and ready to try to improve the article. As I said if you do not like my edits you can explain your disagreement and we can try to find a solution. For example, in this case you reverted my edit and completly removed the part of Kosovo being one of two autonomous provinces of Serbia. I assume that is because you don't like the fact that Kosovo is de jure part of Serbia, but there's no need to change the text so drastically. As for the UN administration, the following paragraph explains it fully. TSO1D 18:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I used this as an experiment. Adding autonomous to the article changes very little, to be honest, but I made it sound like it was a huge step towards neutrality, which it isn't really that much. Well, I congradulated TSO1D, and as soon as I did, Ferick started calling TSO1D biased because of the "congratulations from the Serbian user". This shows how nationalistic Ferick is, and how, to him, every Serb is biased. Good job Ferick, you proved my point. --serbiana - talk 19:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I cannot see how adding the word "autonomous" in any way changes the meaning of the sentence other than to make it more clear. If nothing else, can    a word other than "province" be agreed upon? Maybe the word in the original language (of whatever document it derives from) rather than this unclear translation? --Echalon 02:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not about that, the change did make it more clear, but it was not a dramatic step towards neutrality as I've described it. I wanted to see if Ferick will turn against TSO1D the moment I congradulate him for doing something that I made Ferick to believe to be pro-Serb, but was actually exactly how you described it. The experiment worked, Ferick is extremely anti-Serb. He clearly hates ALL Serbs, and some might call him a nationalistic racist. --serbiana - talk 03:24, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My own opinion is that the word "autonomous" is definitely justified, as it's how Kosovo is formally defined in terms of its legal status as a province of Serbia (which of course is recognised by every UN member, as far as I know, including Albania). However, we do need to be careful that we make clear that it's only a de jure status and that de facto Kosovo is not now administered as a sub-unit of Serbia. -- ChrisO 08:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Because, as all of our sources say, Kosovo has the same legal status as Vojvodina, i.e. it's an autonomous province of Serbia. The difference is in its administrative status as a UN-run territory. -- ChrisO 19:31, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification of word 'province'? 

message: Over the next few days, I plan to make some major changes to the history section of the article and to the related History of Kosovo article. This article's history section is way too long and detailed for what's supposed to be an overview article; I intend to replace it with a much shorter and simplified version. As for History of Kosovo, it will probably be necessary to rewrite it from scratch. It's almost entirely unreferenced and very badly written in places. Unfortunately the lack of references will most likely mean that much of the content will have to be dumped until people can find proper sources for the assertions it makes. -- ChrisO 22:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ferick, I noticed you've been causing a lot of trouble. If you love Kosova, go there and help the 50% of the population that don't have a job and are starving to death. Stop wasting your time here, please. --KOCOBO 21:07, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Trimming the history

message: Why is this article not called Kosovo and Metohija or Kosovo and Metohia? Thats the official name of the province. --Svetislav Jovanović 21:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't know Milosevic. --Svetislav Jovanović 01:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

text: P.S. are all the users jokers like you, or is there anyone that will take my argument seriously? --Svetislav Jovanović 01:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The CIA article on Serbia defines the administrative province of Kosovo as Kosovo and Metohia. Is the CIA not a good enough source? --Svetislav Jovanović 03:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This was discussed a long time ago (it's in the archives somewhere). On the English Wikipedia, we use the English version and spelling for non-English names. Hence Koln is Cologne, Timor-Leste is East Timor, etc. The official local names are noted in the relevant articles but are not used for the article titles themselves. A similar principle applies to Kosovo, as neither "Kosovo and Metohija" nor "Kosova" are widely used in English. See Wikipedia:Proper names#Place names for more guidance on this. If you look again at the CIA factbook, you'll see that it also follows this convention - it mentions "Metohia" once in a section which gives the official local names of administrative divisions, but everywhere else it uses "Kosovo" without the "-and Metohia" suffix. -- ChrisO 09:01, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Two further examples for Jovanović: the article on USA is at United States, not "United States of America" and the article on the UK is at United Kingdom, not "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". For article names we often shorten the official name if the shortened form is more common. —Gabbe 10:25, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for explaining. I agree now. And thank you for taking my opinion seriously, I appreciate it. --Svetislav Jovanović 02:48, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kosovo and Metohija

message: Ferick, I don't understand the new version of the introduction that you are trying to introduce. You de-wikified several of the words for no apparent reason, but that is a minor change. But you removed the fact that there is another autonomous province in Serbia, why? Then you said that there is no direct Serbian involvement although Resolution 1244 does stipulate that "4) Confirms that after the withdrawal an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serb military and police personnel will be permitted to return to Kosovo to perform the functions in accordance with annex 2;" and always emphasizes Kosovo's autnomous status within Yugoslavia/Serbia. Then the part about internation recognition should not be removed. Although you might consider it redundant, it emphasizes the fact that the international community views Kosovo as a territorial unit of Serbia which is an important matter. TSO1D 14:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You said that Vojvodina is different from Kosovo because the former is a part of Serbia. I don't understand that argument. You yourself agree that Kosovo is part of Serbia, and it is an autonomous province of the second, thus it makes sense to include that information in the introduction. As for resolution 1244, you yourself cited that as an example proving that it strips Serbia over any direct control. I just showed you that the resolution does explicitly state that Kosovo will be an autonomous province within Serbia and it lists the duties of Serbia in aiding the process of restoring normalcy in the region. I agree that in reality this influence has been marginal, nevertheless, it is not completely absent. And as for de jure, I already explained that above. TSO1D 16:15, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I should add that de jure is in two senses. Domestically, the Serbian constitution defines Kosovo as part of Serbia; internationally, the Helsinki Final Act and USNCR 1244 both maintain the "territorial integrity" of all the former Yugoslav states. As for Serbia's involvement in Kosovo, I was under the impression that the Serbian government is still significantly involved in Serb-inhabited areas of Kosovo (especially the far north): "On the ground, Serbian areas of Kosovo still function as if they were part of Serbia, outside the framework of government established by UNMIK, in terms of courts, schools, health care, pensions, telecommunications and most importantly security forces."  Is this no lonegr the case? -- ChrisO 16:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Ferick, do you have difficulty reading UNSCR 1244? "Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2." The words are right there in the document. As the US State Department says, this "mandated that the territorial integrity of the FRY be provisionally preserved pending a future decision on Kosovo's political status".  -- ChrisO 08:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: First of all, Central Serbia is not a province, it is just the territory between the two provinces. Sencond of all, Kosovo has a de jure status that is the same as Vojvodina, but while the status functions de facto in Vojvodina, but not in Kosovo, it's practical to mention Vojvodina. Also, it's not as complicated as you present it, Serbia only has two provinces, mentioning the other in each of the two articles does little harm. And unlike dog and cat, Vojvodina and Kosovo are de jure the same, but de facto different, and it does no harm to mention that (if you don't mention it in one of these two articles, where will you mention it then?). --KOCOBO 02:18, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that if Serbia had 10 provinces it wouldn't be practical to mention them all (except perhaps in an infobox). But since it only has two such subdivisions I honestly don't understand the harm of mentioning one in an article about the other. Think of it as a convenience link for the user. There's no other mention of Vojvodina in the Kosovo article, even in the infobox. Incidentally, the current infobox is problematic too - if Kosovo is still part of Serbia this should be shown (compare the Vojvodina infobox). Right now it isn't. -- ChrisO 08:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: No, no, no, status of Kosovo is NOT SAME as that of Vojvodina. Autonomous status of Vojvodina is defined by the Omnibus Law from 2002, while the autonomous status of Kosovo is defined by the 1244 resolution. Vojvodina and Kosovo have very different levels of autonomy, Vojvodina for example have no president, army, police, etc, as Kosovo have. Besides that, even the proposal made by Serbian government about future status of Kosovo has defined Kosovo as autonomous state within Serbia, not as autonomous province. Also, status of Kosovo is same de jure and de facto, because Serbian government accepted 1244 resolution and UNMIK administration, thus Kosovo is de jure autonomous province of Serbia only through UNMIK, not apart of UNMIK. PANONIAN (talk) 13:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Intro 

message: Can some of the admins please add this sentence (alter it in any way you see fit): "Kosovo is a transshipment point for Southwest Asian heroin moving to Western Europe on the Balkan route; the economy is vulnerable to money laundering" CIA reference, I think it's important to put in the article, but I don't dare to add it, because Ferick or Ilir will remove it... --KOCOBO 03:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Based on the evidence so far, I am quite confident you can gather the courage to do it.Ferick 06:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Will you remove it? --KOCOBO 06:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree, it's worth mentioning. I've added a paragraph on the black economy to put the drug issue in the broader context. BTW, I found an even better source for the drug trafficking issue, in the shape of the UNMIK Police themselves. -- ChrisO 07:50, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: You might wish to read this Sunday Times article from three months ago: . -- ChrisO 21:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Your comments on the reliability of an individual journalist are, of course, your own personal POV and have no relevance to this article. You've also made a very dishonest misquotation of the Sunday Times piece. It says: "On Friday the UN’s internal watchdog, the Office of Internal Oversight, accused Jessen-Petersen of turning a blind eye to widespread fraud at Pristina airport. He protested that the accusation was 'entirely unwarranted'." Note that there's absolutely no refutation of the wider concerns about the black economy. The fact that it exists in the first place isn't disputed by anyone with any credibility. As for your final comments, no personal attacks. You're heading for a block if you continue in that vein. -- ChrisO 22:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Illicit drugs

message: For God's sake, I like to ask everybody to answer this question: in your reading about Kosovo, in which phrase have you come across most often:
1.Although de jure part of Serbia, since the end of the Kosovo War in 1999 it has been administered by the United Nations
2.Although it is de jure a territorial sub-unit of Serbia and internationally recognised as such, since the end of the Kosovo War in 1999 it has been administered by the United Nations 
I have never seen the second one. If one has, please provide source-I like to see it.Ferick 14:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope you wouldn't find those two exact sentences anywhere, otherwise it would be plagiarism, but this is certainly not a factual dispute, just one about wording. I prefer the second version for the reason that saying that Kosovo is de-jure part of Serbia simply means that in principle Kosovo is part of Serbia, but the second part emphasizes that the entire international community views it as a territorial sub-unit of Serbia, eliminating the vagueness of the beginning. I am not enamoured with the wording, so if someone wants to change it again, I'm not going to revert. But Ferick reverted the entire page to his prefered version, instead of just removing the reference to Vojvodina, which more users agreed to. You also changed the de-jure part where more users declared themselves against your version, as well as adding the "no direct involvement by Serbia" which I believe is too categorical. TSO1D 15:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: If a fact is common knowledge, then it will obviously be found in multiple sources, but using the exact same sentence as in another source (i.e. a word by word copy) would be considered plaagiarism. TSO1D 17:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: About the no Serbian involvement: "The rest of Kosovo's Serbian enclaves are run by the UN, but in reality, the Serbian Government retains considerable control over local services." from the BBC. Thus the Serbian government actually manifests real influence over the areas, it is not as if the local Serbs just emulate Serbia. And add to this the numerous, albeit small areas where Serbia has been allowed to act in Kosovo, I would say the "no involvement" statemetn would definitly not be justified. TSO1D 15:47, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: De Jure

message: I was wondering if there is a provision in wikipedia that exempts Serb users[] from the 3RR rule. Any help would be highly appreciated. Ferick 20:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course there isn't, but by my count KOCOBO has reverted three edits in the last 24 hours. This is within the 3RR limit. -- ChrisO 20:27, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

text: See WP:3RR. —Gabbe 21:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Does the 3RR rule apply to Serb users?

message: 1. Why are you deleting the links to other articles (namely Albanian, Serbian, Serbia, Vojvodina, Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro and Albanians) in the first paragraph? What possible problem could there be with inter-article links?
2) Why are you deleting :Category:Disputed territories when it's universally acknowledged that Kosovo is, in fact, a disputed territory?
3) Why are you deleting interwiki links to the Albanian, Alsatian, Bulgarian, Latin, Polish and Slovenian versions of this article?
You haven't provided any explanation of your reverts other than that they're to "remove unreliable & unverifiable claims/sources" (which plainly can't apply to inter-article links, interwiki links or the category). What is your explanation for the three points above? -- ChrisO 07:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Part of the problem here seems to be the way people are reverting. I'd suggest that people (on all "sides") please just change the individual points that they think are wrong. This way, we may gradually stop "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" and losing innocent improvements in the process of lazily reverting. – Kieran T (talk | contribs) 13:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is indeed the problem. Ferick, I made the same observation one paragraph above, but I believe you didn't see it. Your version has a number of flaws caused by lack of links, an open ref tag, wrong interwikis, and others. Once again I urge you not to revert to that old version as it has some incorrect changes, whether because you accidentally introduced them while editing, or because they existed previously. If you have some changes add them manually, and as always if they are controversial, please explain them beforehand. TSO1D 14:12, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ferick, please see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kosovo&diff=63368417&oldid=63331772 to see all the changes that you made with your reversion. If you don't know what you're changing when you revert, that's a very good reason for not reverting in the first place. -- ChrisO 07:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questions for Ferick 

message: thumb|right|200px|Proposed map of Kosovo in Serbia
Hello, since this is a sensitive issue for all sides, I will not make changes myself. However, I propose we put this map from Commons in the article, if not at the top, then somewhere in the middle or bottom. It shows Kosovo's position in Serbia, and the municipalities that are in it. What do others think about this? --GOD OF JUSTICE 01:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think this picture should replace the current infobox map, however it can be a useful complement to the history section. Perhaps it could be added to the "Kosovo in the Second Yugoslavia" section, although the names of all localities are only in Serbian. TSO1D 02:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the names are that important, the purpose of the map is to show the location in Serbia. My proposal would be to put it next to the blue map at the top, so as to show the position of Kosovo in Serbia, and next to it, Kosovo as a separate province. Plan B would be to place that map lower in the article, because at the moment there is not map showing Kosovo's location in Serbia, and this image is an accurate represantation of that. Do you agree? --GOD OF JUSTICE 02:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, putting it on top would make some users very unhappy, I have noticed this after looking at the history of the article. Better not to start a conflict, maybe the map should just not be in the article for the time being. I see that there's been a lot of problems over this issue in the past, better not to open Pandora's box if it's not neccessary. --GOD OF JUSTICE 03:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that we need a map showing Kosovo's position within Serbia, but I don't think this is the ideal map to use - it's too detailed for our purposes. There's no point in showing all the municipalities outside Kosovo, for a start. Also, all the place names are in Serbian Cyrillic, which is problematic both alphabetically (the map shows no Latin transliterations) and politically (no Albanian names are given either). Instead, I suggest that we use a large-scale locator map showing where Kosovo is plus a more detailed map of the province's political boundaries, giving both both Serbian and Albanian municipality names in the Latin alphabet. What do you think of the one on the right as a general locator map? -- ChrisO 07:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This looks like a good map to me, ChrisO, I suggest you just put it in and we'll see what happens (unfortunately). Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 07:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The principle is OK, but the colors are making too big of a contrast (hurts my eyes :)), I've made a map that resembles some of the more popular maps in this encyclopedia, like the England and Scotland articles. Below it, I propose this next map I am showing you, which shows Kosovo's position within Serbia, with no municipality names or anything like that. The municipality names map should go down to the section called "Subdivisions". As I've seen on Wikipedia, the purpose of the top map of any article is to show location, and nothing else (which is why I changed my opinion about the first photo I proposed), so maybe the next map I'm proposing should go below, like in the other more popular articles. What do others think? --GOD OF JUSTICE 18:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the position-within-Serbia map but I really don't like your proposed European locator map - the colours are far too indistinct (dark green and slightly lighter green?). I deliberately chose red and green as high-contrast colours. Kosovo is a small entity in what's a fairly small country, so it won't occupy many pixels on the map - it needs to be very visible if it's going to show up clearly on that scale. -- ChrisO 19:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In accessibility terms, red and green are a disaster for (certain types of...) colour-blind people. We should go for excellent contrast, not two bright colours. How about increasing the contrast in the second version, but sticking with just greens? – Kieran T (talk | contribs) 19:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Chris, I'm glad you like the second map I proposed, and I appreciate your honesty. Kieran, I aggree that making the contrast bigger is a better idea, maybe the colors should be the same as in the other map that Chris likes. Plus make the light green even lighter and dark green even darker to make it more distinct, without hurting my eyes ;) What do you think? --GOD OF JUSTICE 19:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the "Kosovo in Serbia" map has sufficient contrast and uses relatively neutral colors. The new "Kosovo in Europe" map also is the best version in my view. TSO1D 23:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with both too - good work! -- ChrisO 07:20, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

text: It's redundant - we already have a very detailed map immediately below the contents box. What we lacked was a locator map, which we now have thanks to Bože pravde. See Catalonia for a comparable infobox. -- ChrisO 21:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

text: So why do we need two maps of Kosovo? -- ChrisO 22:19, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Map

message: Its good to see this article has improved over the last period of time. There is one thing  that is still really bugging me here, though. The external links section contains a pro-serbian and a pro-albanian section. Many of those sources are in Serbian or Albanian, so of little use to English Wikipedia users, the headings (pro-....) are inflammatory and the sources (as evidenced by their grouping in pro-.... sections) are probably not neutral or independent. My first hunch is to simply delete both sections and all the links in them, but I considered that too drastic to do without discussion. Another options is to mix all the external links together, keeping only the ones linking to english language site. Any other ideas on how we could deal with this? Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 19:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It might be worth going through the criteria at Wikipedia:External links and identifying which links don't qualify for inclusion. I note that foreign-language links are listed on WP:EL under "Links normally to be avoided". -- ChrisO 19:51, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: Thanks for everyone who contributed to this poll - we have a clear consensus in favour of both propositions. Reinoutr does have a good point though, so I've attempted to find a middle ground by modifying the infobox to match that of Vojvodina - showing the map of Kosovo next to some navigation links generated by the  template. -- ChrisO 07:18, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Thanks - poll now closed

message: *    Minorities in Kosovo
::A documentary by the Government of Serbia about the position of Serbs and other non-Albanians in Kosovo, and attacks on their civil and human rights from March 17th to 19th in 2004.
*    Destruction of Orthodox culture in Kosovo
::A documentary by the Government of Serbia about the Serbian Orthodox churches and monasteries demolished and destroyed by extremists from 1998. to 2005.
How to do envisage including movies in the article? Besides that, the movies are clearly not from a neutral POV, so that makes them unsuitable. Also, the topic that they are about is already included in the article. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 10:41, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I suggest adding these government movies to the article 

message: Can someone add a label/listing for Central Serbia or Serbia proper between those for Vojvodina and Kosovo? It seems to me that it would make the map much clearer, being that the map has three subdivisions and only two labels. Or if that is a problem, at least add an arrow showing where Vojvodina is. Right now it is pretty ambiguous (to the uninformed user).
--Echalon 18:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't make sense, and I think it would cause more confusion? If you check Vojvodina article you can see further details. There aren't three subdivisions, there are two autonomous provinces within Serbia.  --Lowg 18:38, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand that, but right now there is no distinction on the map to indicate that there is any difference between Vojvodina and Central Serbia. Right now the map does have three subdivisions/delineated regions (I wasn't referring to legal subdivisions, I mean literally separate areas on the map). In other words, being the same color on the map, you can't tell which part the Vojvodina label is referring to. So either change the color or add some other indication. This way it will be clear which areas of the map are the two provinces. --Echalon 03:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The text of the article's first paragraph has been modified to address Echalon's concern. Thanks for your contribution. :-) --Evv 04:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for listening :-d It's nice to see that huge political debates don't stop minor improvements. --Echalon 19:41, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding "Central Serbia" label to map? 

message: I reverted the changes in the introduction to keep it concise, adequate for users who read only the introduction and not the article. Besides, a major unsourced change had been introduced:
* with little direct involvement from the Serbian government. became
* Belgrade has had no direct role in governing Kosovo since 1999.
I moved part of Envoy202's edit to the Politics section, without merging it with the previous text already there. However, i omitted restoring unsourced claims (Contact Group countries declared in January 2006 that a future status settlement must be, inter alia, acceptable to the people of Kosovo and fully respect the rights of Kosovo's minorities) and a general perhaps unintentional pro-Albanian POV (per WP:NPOV#Undue weight).
I don't object to the facts themselves, but to the lack of sources and the wording: keep in mind that this is a rather controversial topic, making Verifiability and WP:NPOV indispensable. Regards :-) --Evv 01:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think Durres is his name. That was an example he used to illustrate his point, though I honestly have no idea what that is. TSO1D 20:35, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My revert of Envoy202's to Lowg's version 

message: As he has indicated on these talk pages before, Ferick has now started to unilaterally make controversial edits to the introduction. I'm not sure how this should be dealt with. It would be preferably if a protection of the article could be avoided. Osli73 20:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I second Osli73's comment. --Evv 20:22, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The article has been protected for long enough. This isn't a content dispute any longer - it's purely a user (mis)conduct dispute, as Ferick is violating a number of fundamental policies and general wikiquette. The problems aren't limited to this article, as he's been editing abusively on other articles as well. I'll be posting a user-conduct RFC on Ferick in the next couple of days, with a view to taking it to arbitration if he fails to change his behaviour. I'd prefer not to have to take it to arbitration, but if I do it's likely to result in Ferick being banned from editing Kosovo-related articles - at a minimum. I'll certainly be recommending such a ban if it comes to it. - ChrisO 21:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ferick starting a revert war... 

message: To make things more informative to editors who not do not regularly edit this article, I have moved the large infobox to a separate template page: Template:Kosovo-InfoBox and transcluded it in the article.
In addition, I have added a warning (only visible when editing) that major changes to the introduction would be better discussed here first. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 14:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good job :) --Evv 20:46, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Warning and template 

message: As discussed, I have added a section on the Kosovo future status process.  Unfortunately, I don't have the time to look up citations for everything in this section, but I'm confident all assertions can be verified through either a web search or some other minimal digging.  In fact, I'd be grateful if people could help me add some citations and links -- UNOSEK has a decent website, plus there have been lots of media articles over the last year about the status process.  Because the Kosovo issue and the status process will heat up in the fall, I think there is merit in having an ample and accurate section on what's going on.  
--Envoy202 15:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Future Status Process 

message: * Kosovo is more or leas independent in realty and in "paper". 
Kosovo has oven ekonomy, politic, borders, police, president, ..... , Kosovo is traing to be regotnesed from Serbia in demotratic way (This is for the future ekonomy of Serbia and Kosovo importen). If Serbia n politicans dont have there folk under cotroll we dont need to sacrife Kosovo about thate. Kosovo has traid more thate 6 years to give them a chance to comme back to Europen family and at the end to make a bilance with demege from Milosevic. This big problem in Serbia, is a same think with somme Rusian peopel witch think thate the Sovjet Union is super power and Coca-Cola is Rusian product beacose in the back side of the bothel is etiket with "Made in Rusia". - Hipi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.173.212.154 (talk • contribs) 23:08, 3 August 2006
--Envoy202 01:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kosovo is.... 

message: Hey, gang, is everybody cool with my new sections on Future Status and Politics?  Again, I was nervous about the lack of citations -- I'd really appreciate the help, however, to dig up weblinks and other references.  Most of the information, however, is utterly non-controversial (famous last words!).
--Envoy202 18:56, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the section is a good summary of the ongoing resolution process of Kosovo's status and is necessary to the article. I wouldn't worry about the lack of citations, as time goes by the gaps will quickly be filled, espcially given how controversial this article is I am sure some users are checking every sentence and in the process sources will be found. TSO1D 20:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, nice work! Thanks for the excellent contributions you've made so far. -- ChrisO 10:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, very nice. Since the Contact group discussions are very much a current event and, I can imagine, one of the key interests of those reading the article, I think it is a good idea to put them in a separate section. Makes it easier to update as well.Osli73 11:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Future Status / Politics section 

message: As many of you will have noticed, this article and the related Template:Kosovo-InfoBox have repeatedly been messed around by someone using a series of anonymous IP addresses. Whoever it is is using open proxy servers, which is an instantly blockable offence - I've been going through them and blocking them as they appear. Unfortunately it may be necessary to semi-protect the article at short notice to keep out the anonymous vandal. Apologies in advance if this causes any problems. -- ChrisO 10:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV editing/vandalism from anon user 

message: I've posted a user-conduct request for comments on Ferick following his latest bout of edit-warring - it's time to put an end to it. Please feel free to add your comments at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Ferick. -- ChrisO 01:14, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ferick RfC 

message: In the first two paragraphs of the intro, there is too much repetition of facts.
First paragraph: "While it is legally a part of Serbia it has been administered by the United Nations since the end of the 1999 Kosovo War."
Second paragraph: "Kosovo has been under Serbian sovereignty since 1912 but since the end of the Kosovo War in 1999 it has been administered by the United Nations with little direct involvement from the Serbian government."
Notice that the Kosovo war and the UN administration is mentioned twice in the intro? Now, when I remove one of these sentences, someone always reverts me, why? --KOCOBO 23:46, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too much repetition