Talk:Greek cuisine/Archive 1

message: I do not think that Greek Cuisine is a typical Mediterranean cuisine. In fact, Greek cuisine has had many influences, including from the Romans, Venetians, Balkans, Turks, and Slavs. Please take a look at http://greekfood.about.com/od/discovergreekfood/a/food_intro.htm and let me know what you think.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Acotanidis (talk • contribs) 15:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Origins

message: A recent edit added to the introduction "Its base is Byzantine Cuisine,..." and removed "Due to the strong Ottoman presence, many Greek dishes are closely related to Ottoman/Turkish dishes." There are clearly some dishes that can be traced back to ancient Greece (e.g. trahanas, skordalia, lentil soup, retsina, pasteli) and some specifically to Byzantium (feta cheese, avgotaraho, paximadi).  There are also many ancient and Byzantine preparations which are no longer consumed: porridge as the main staple, fish sauce, salt water mixed into wine, etc.  On the other hand, there are also many dishes from the Ottoman/Persian/Arab tradition, and with clearly non-Greek names: moussaka, baklava, tzatziki, yuvarlakia, yoghurt, keftedhes, ....  Of course, the name isn't a foolproof indication of the history of a dish; the ancients apparently made something very similar to dolma, and probably to some kinds of boureki.  Very few dishes come from Italian cooking: pastitsio, makaronia me kima, ...
It would be good to provide a balanced introduction to all this. --Macrakis 22:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Egon Friedell claimed that Feta was eaten by ancient Spartans, but I don't know where he got that from. My reaction is not overreacting, it's the result of anon long-term pov-pushing. There was definitely an important Ottoman influence, but we cannot know at what degree it represents the general middle-eastern element in Greek cuisine. This doesn't have to do with the fact that Ottoman cuisine assimilated much of its cuisine from the middle east, but with the fact that Byzantium has always had oriental influences in its cuisine even before the Ottoman domination. In other terms we could specify that Italian and middle-easter influences come via the Venetians and the Ottomans respectively, but I'm not sure how accurrate it is. Why would you not agree that the base of Greek cuisine is the Byzantine? What else could it be? I'm not aware of any trends of ancient Greek cuisine that were not transmitted through Byzantium. Miskin 21:19, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be interesting to learn where Friedell got his information. As for the connection of ancient and modern Greek cuisine, it doesn't seem that close to me (how many people do you see eating porridge as a staple these days...?).  I'd be happy to have better sources about the transmission of Persian cuisine to the West and the East (the Gk. καβουρ-δίζω and Tk. kavur-mak appear to be from the same Persian (Mughal/Mongol?) word as the Indian dish korma).  And about the sources of Persian cuisine and food terminology, for that matter.  But alas John Perry says: "so far as I know, there's no comprehensive etymological study of the cuisine of Persia and its neighbors and debtors"  (private communication). --Macrakis 03:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I still think that it's more accurrate than claiming "with strong influences from the Byzantine Cuisine as well as Italy, the Middle East", which implies 1/3 contribution of each. That's not the case. Late Byzantines were practically early modern Greeks, the language has remained fairly intact, I don't see how the cuisine can have changed that much. Miskin 16:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I certainly don't support the "1/3" wording. For one thing, the Italian contribution is relatively small as far as I can tell.  Until we have stronger historical evidence, I think it is more correct to say that Greek cuisine has many commonalities (note that this avoids the question of origin) with Ottoman/Turkish cuisine.  "Middle Eastern" (as I think you've pointed out before) is less accurate than "Ottoman", after all, it has many fewer commonalities with Lebanese/Syrian cuisine (no kibbeh, no hummus bi tahini, no fattoush, no tabbouleh, etc.). Some specific dishes can be traced further: cf. Baklava (but also cf. the ridiculous POV-pushing at Assyrian cuisine). --Macrakis 16:45, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

text: The term 'oriental cuisine', which you might think was a good translation for ανατολίτικη κουζίνα, is in English nowadays pretty much reserved for East Asia (and not much for that, either); the older usage, like "Near East" and "The Levant", is basically obsolete. Levantine cuisine refers to the cooking of the Bilad al-Sham (Greater Syria), and specifically not to Turkish cuisine.  "Anatolian cuisine" is not a standard term, and anyway sounds like it's talking specifically of rustic food.  And I still don't think the 'Byzantine base' is useful to talk about. --Macrakis 18:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Relationship of Byzantine and modern cooking

message: "Greek cuisine is the cuisine of Greece or perhaps of the Greeks."
This needs to be rewritten.  No offense to anyone involved, but that's a terrible way to start an article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.142.61.13 (talk • contribs) 
:Greeks are traditionally a diaspora people, Greek cuisine is not restricted to the borders of the Greek state, and it does not originate exclusively in Greece. Miskin 17:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I sort of agree with both of you.  Clearly Greek cuisine is not just the cuisine of the state of Greece, but the way the article is currently worded is confusing if you don't already know what it means.  The "perhaps" is an especially odd way of saying it. I must confess to not having a good replacement on the tip of my tongue, though. --Delirium 21:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Opening Sentence

message: Gemista -the 5th entry in famous greek dishes- and Yemista -the last- both refer to the same dish. One of them should be deleted. Preferably the "Gemista". GiorgosV 18:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone also wikilinked yemista to dolma, which I removed.  There are similarities between the dishes, but they're hardly the same. --Delirium 21:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look at the dolma article, I think you will find it describes yemista, which after all means the same thing (just like the Arabic mahshi).  Of course, stuffed vegetables are not the same thing as things wrapped in grape leaves (Greek dolmathakia, Turkish sarma). --Macrakis 21:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, odd.  In English usage at least, I've never heard the word "dolma" used to describe stuffed vegetables, only the grape-leaf wraps.  If you go to a Mediterranean restaurant anywhere in the U.S. (whether Greek or Turkish or Lebanese) that's the usage they use. --Delirium 21:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Greek cuisine article doesn't use the word 'dolma' to refer to stuffed vegetables, but just wikilinks to dolma using the link text yemista. As for the name in English, the heading 'dolma' in the Oxford Companion to Food does talk about the stuffed vegetable kind, while mentioning the sarma kind as well. --Macrakis 22:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duplicate entry on "Gemista" or "Yemista" 

message: In my experience (and I'm of Greek ancestry), these are two names for the same thing.  I've never known a "Spanakopita" not to contain cheese (though I've no objection to its being tried).  "Spanakotyropita" is the more accurate name, though, as it might be thought a trifle cumbersome, "Spanakopita" is by far the more commonly used.
Kostaki mou 03:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Spanakopita/Spanakotyropita

message: I think the only way we can move forward on this article is to become more rigorous in the use of sources.  Unfortunately, there are lots of poor sources in food history.  Almost every cookbook (of every cuisine, not just Greek) is full of legends.  Fortunately, there are a few serious sources.  Andrew Dalby has done extensive research in original ancient and Byzantine sources and published several books based on this research.  He is an excellent source for finding the ancient or Byzantine roots of modern foods.  The Zubaida and Tapper collection has many excellent articles.  The Oxford Companion to Food is generally good, though the entry on Greek food has lots of good information on current foods, its history is alas weak.  But what are we to make of the most recently added source, A Food Technology Handbook, whose blurb describes it as "the authoritative handbook for seasoning developers" -- what historical research went into that book? --Macrakis 17:52, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: In case that people want to challenge my last edit.--Z yTalk 13:34, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since there's lots of disputes over the cuisine of this region, I think it makes sense to discuss all major viewpoints in the article, if they can be sourced to published articles and books. Why do you think that that particular source needs to be removed? --Delirium 16:31, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Simply because it gives a false impression that kebap&dolma is of Byzantine origin, which, except for some Greek nationalist writers, is not acceptable for the rest. However, you have right to mention all possibilities, especially on the Greek cuisine page. However in doing that, you should give explanations. Baklava page can be an example. It may not be the best example for sure, but there are lots of explanations there. For example, it is written that "X claims ... because ... but Y says ..." Arguments with explanations, traces, proofs, traditions etc. And if there are, counter arguments. All together. I mean writing that Ash says that these dishes are Byzantine does not make sense at all. Why does he say so? His arguments? Examples? What kind of similarities with ancient Byzantine dishes? etc. etc. It is not so easy to claim to be the owner of all these specialities. Especially where there are thousands of counter arguments which refute a thesis. I am even more suspicious when it comes to Byzantine origins cause in the past, some dishes&sweets shown as the ancestors of some specialities (such as Baklava) turned out to be totally irrelevant? So please edit the main text by giving more explanation. However be sure that I will add some counter arguments as well. That's why most of the time discussions about the origins are made on the principal pages of the dishes instead of cuisine pages? But if you want to start a discussion on the Greek cuisine page you can --Z yTalk 15:38, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of sourced text/Dolmathes 

message: John Ash is a poet, not an cuisine authority. We need here Byzantian Texts as sources. Regards.Must.T  C  14:37, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: John Ash is also a writer who has made Istanbul and the history of Byzantium his primary area of study and commentary. I feel that we need corroborating sources, but in this instance it would appear that his commentary would seem appropriate in the context of contrasting views and of his own role as a non-academic. As per WP:RS, non-academic sources are acceptable within the appropriate context. That is to say, his viewpoint is acceptable to note if his comments are given framework; that is, of a non-academic writer studying historical documents. Further sources would be preferable.--C.Logan 16:09, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a note, I'll look into this source if I get a chance, and I'll see if it references the specific texts.--C.Logan 16:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't have any problem rewording/rephrasing/relocating the reference, but it seems odd that people are so adamant about completely removing a source they happen to disagree with. We're not saying "here's what's true, because John Ash said it", but rather "here is the viewpoint of John Ash, one of several notable people who've expressed conflicting views on the subject". As Wikipedia our job is not really to decide who of these people is really correct, just to report what everyone has to say, properly attributing the claims and contextualizing them in some readable format. --Delirium 18:26, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See above. It is not as simple as you put the case. --Z yTalk 19:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps it'd simplify this article if we moved the discussion of the origins elsewhere? We already have a little discussion in both Ottoman cuisine and Byzantine cuisine of the controversy over how/if they're related. In this article we could just mention that Greek cuisine probably inherits elements from either or both of the main empires that previously existed in the region, but what exactly was inherited from which is controversial. --Delirium 20:32, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Speculation: John Ash 

message: User:Gastronomos added the text below, and re-added it after my removal:
:Greece is a country with phenomenal culinary resources, temporarily misplaced by postwar deprivation; the recovery is just now starting with chefs from all over Greece and Greeks of the Diaspora celebrating Greek culinary culture through their food.
This text contains one piece of blatant boosterism ("phenomenal culinary resources"); an unsourced theory about the development of Greek cuisine from WWII to now; and a cross between a tautology and cheerleading. I think the whole thing is unencyclopedic, but I am trying to follow the 1RR.  If others agree with me, please remove this. Thanks, --Macrakis 20:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Puffery

message: This is a template. Please edit if you like. (sorry if this is the wrong place)
Greek cuisine is shaped by the country's temperate climate, its island geography and its history. The latter includes interactions with other European and Middle Eastern countries, and the importing of ingredients and ideas from places such as North America, Middle East and India during the time of the Ottoman Empire and as a result of post-war immigration.
As a result, traditional foods with ancient origins, such as bread and cheese, roasted and stewed meats, meat and game pies, and freshwater and saltwater fish, are now matched in popularity by potatoes, tomatoes and chillies from the Americas, spices and curries from India and Bangladesh. French cuisine and Italian cuisine, once considered alien, are also now admired and copied.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scott Anafas (talk • contribs) 02:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd agree "once alien", just as in America and abroad, but 'now' is a little late. Perhaps "has been/is" will fit? Also, I think that curries aren't at all popular if at all found.Natasa Sevoleva 13:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How about something similar to this:
Greek cuisine is shaped by the country's temperate climate, its island geography and its history. The latter includes interactions with other European and Middle Eastern countries, and the importing of ingredients and ideas from places such as North America, Middle East and India during the time of the Byzantine Empire and as a result of post-war immigration.
As a result, traditional foods with ancient origins, such as bread and cheese, roasted and stewed meats, meat and game pies, and freshwater and saltwater fish, are now matched in popularity by potatoes, tomatoes and chillies from the Americas, spices from India and Bangladesh. French cuisine and Spanish cuisine, once considered alien, are also now admired and copied.
Greece is a country with phenomenal culinary resources, temporarily misplaced by postwar deprivation; the recovery is just now starting with chefs from all over Greece and Greeks of the Diaspora celebrating Greek culinary culture through their food. Pana Gamithis (talk) 05:24, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is old, may need editing:
There are millions of GREAT places to eat in Greece. Just as everywhere else in the world, NYC included, you have to chowhound. Walk, walk, and walk. Try what looks good and keep walking to find more. There are not many Michelin stars twinkling in the nighttime sky over Athens. But as a chowhound, you are surely not lured to the obvious. But after a salad of crisped loudsa, fennel, shaved graviera, and a citrus vinaigrette with grapefruit pieces one evening, and a moist lamb shank in a thyme sauce resting on a bed of tomato and feta risotto another night, you'll begin to wonder why.
Welcome to the new Athenian cuisine. Moussaka? Sure, it's on menus everywhere. Lamb and fish remain staples, and are quite good at many traditional Greek restaurants. However, Athens has its share of good restaurants that raise traditional Greek cuisine to new heights while creating other dishes influenced by flavors more common to other parts of the Mediterranean that are/were inhabited by Greeks.
In almost any large American city, Athens' best restaurants would be top-ranked, with prices to match: Notwithstanding Greece's reputation as a cheap destination, it's easy to pay more than $100 for dinner for two.
That's without ordering a bottle of wine, which remains a risk in a country that is now known for producing some fine wines, but has yet to shake its reputation for resin-tasting retsina.
The problem is that Greek food hasn't been well introduced to outside countries looking for the familiar. And when they visit Greece they are searching for the same easy crap. The simple approach that many 'ethnic' cuisines first suffer, and Greek cuisine STILL suffers, is that the first waves of immigrants display only what they THINK will sell well in a place where the hamburger is King. And what is easy to make and display, like the hamburger. Souvlaki and gyros is what people think of when they think "Greek". If they don't call them by the non-Greek name 'kabob'. Most, if not all, "Greek" roadside ramshackle 'pitarias' in Holland, and other Scandinavian countries, the UK, GB (or whatever they are calling themselves these days) and other places have been sold to Middle Eastern keepers. They change a couple of things here and there and call it by what they know. The problem comes when these places are remembered as being "Greek" and people associating BOTH as the SAME. They ain't. Times change, and so do people.
Even in Greece, as in most of the "old world", it is historically customary to dine at home. Doing otherwise would suggest that mom has "other" matters to attend to. NOT a compliment. Those days are fading fast, if not faded already. There is still that mentality amongst many (of the older set and those from the very few remote villages) that food prepared 'outside'(of the home) is cut rate, loaded with 'fillers' and never as good as mom made. I hear only this from coworkers and friends when I discuss their country of origin cuisine. I get it from "Little India" in Manhattan has keepers that are "in it only for the money", implying that the food isn't up to par. Also, I can't get many of them to eat there. To, "Why would I eat at an Italian place when momma has the best gravy at home?" And they are right.
Athens preparation for the Olympic Games in 2004 is now well underway which has resulted in the refurbishment of numerous older hotels in a contemporary style. The quality of restaurants is also improving and the style is becoming more contemporary.
It is only a few years since the first places which really deserve to be called "gourmet restaurants" were opened. These sophisticated eateries offer world-class cuisine ranging from the classic to the innovative.
There are 'old style' places (tavernas) that feature some 'old style' Greek food that is typically found in restaurants, as opposed to 'home style' found in homes. There are Albanian immigrants and immigrants from all over the world selling their brand of 'Greek' 'food'. If you are lucky to avoid these places, and, like everywhere else, are 'in-the-know', you can find many, many hidden treasures.
In Athens there are also many contemporary places serving real GREEK food in a contemporary style. You most likely won't see many older mind set Greeks dining in those establishments as you would in the old style tavernas. The concept is too..... contemporary. (Like dining at the latest and greatest Italian spot in Manhattan. Many NY'ers, not many Italians from Italy (or Brooklyn, LOL - just kidding!)
You will see Greek food in though. And a good example of it, if you chowhound. 
The Greeks are renowned for their hedonistic lifestyle and the long nights they like to spend eating, drinking and dancing. Few other places on earth can match the city's lively nightlife scene. Late dinners (taken at around 10pm) and nightclubs that fill up after midnight are extremely typical there so don't be alarmed by the empty tables if you show up early for dinner!
Several factors make dining and partying so pleasurable in Athens. First there is the contagious joy shown by Athenians as they savour their food, dance on any available surface - including tables - and chat endlessly. Secondly, the picture perfect scenery - be it a traditional taverna located in a vine-covered backyard in Plaka or a seaside fish restaurant in Piraeus - will add to your enjoyment.
Greece is a wonderland for chowhounds. Probably, by definition, the best chowhounding country in the world. But if you are an impatient/picky/particular chowhound and settle for the tourist traps and the usual glop, then you got what you came for. The rest will dine on some of the best cuisine in the world.
Natasa Sevoleva (talk) 01:22, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is a template. 

message: "For my part, I am convinced of the possibility that contemporary Greek food, when it is not directly taken from the Turks or Italians, has its roots more properly in the Greek Byzantium than it does in the classical era". 
Ok. BUT WHO ARE YOU? :) --Z yTalk 13:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Version Origins 

message: I think that Ravani (Greek: Ραβανί) (a syrup cake) should be added in the list of Greek desserts!
An image of two pieces of Ravani.
And a typical recipe here.-- A.Cython (talk) 19:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ok I have added it in the list. A.Cython (talk) 19:36, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing Dessert 

message: well.. someone added the "colomo soup" as a greek soup...
I am afraid I do not know it and I can't find anything in google so...Does anyone know it? Origins? Recipe etc etc
Please let me know. thanks in advance... A.Cython (talk) 00:46, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Colomo soup? 

message: There is a link to halloumi in the greek cheeses section, well its not a greek cheese, its cypriot and lebanese, they even make it in romania, but not in greece, and certainly not traditionally. Unless someone challenges me on this soon, then i will remove the linkHotspury (talk) 14:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: you imply that the people of Cyprus have no relation to Greeks? To the best of my knowledge in the area of what we call Modern Greece no-one produces Halloumi (people correct me if I am wrong), but on the other hand it does not mean that the people who live in Cyprus are not Greek. Before someone shoot me, let me clarify, on the island there mainly two kind of population the Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots. Does what i said make any sense? A.Cython (talk) 14:45, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

text: I personally changed the first sentence of the article, defining Greek cuisine as Greece's cuisine and not the cuisine of the Greeks.  Halloumi is a traditional Cypriotic cheese, made on the island, and therefore having nothing to do with the political division of Cyprus.  You can find Parmesan cheese in Greece too.  Does that mean that we Greeks should claim Parmesan cheese as a Greek speciality?  Halloumi belongs to the island of Cyprus where it is manufactured and should not create discussions about whether the Greek Cypriots are Greek or not. Greeks cook pasta too but that does not make it a Greek speciality. Pel thal (talk) 09:01, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I only mentioned the political division for emphasizing the Greek element of Cyprus. Maybe it was misleading... anyway Pel thal said it better than me. A.Cython (talk) 09:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  So we are agreed, there should not be a reference in the article that halloumi is a greek cheese?Hotspury (talk) 14:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  Take away the reference about the halloumi and create an article about Cyprus'cuisine instead (if it doesn't exist already):) Pel thal (talk) 21:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Halloumi, should it be here 

message: Why isn't bifteki or bifteki gemisto mentioned ? A plain beef or beef filled with cheese.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Heyalex (talk • contribs) 15:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe because it's made just as "keftedes" (i.e. meatballs). Their only difference is the shape of the minced meat that they are made of.  I guess it's impossible to mention all Greek dishes.  However, please feel free to add any other dishes you may think of!  Pel thal (talk) 15:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  more likely because no-one has written about them then, get stauck in and add add add  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hotspury (talk • contribs) 17:32, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bifteki? 

message: I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that Baklava was very much a Turkish food?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.23.54.232 (talk) 12:08, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, baklava is also a Turkish pastry (actually the word is Turkish).  But we have it in Greece too.  Other Middle East countries also have baklava (e.g. Libanon, Jordan etc).  Guess the different cuisines influenced each other:) Pel thal (talk) 19:34, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baklava 

message: Do Greeks eat pasta?  I was under the impression that Orzo was a Greek pasta.  It sure pops up a lot in Greek American cuisine.  And what about pastitsio?72.78.10.97 (talk) 08:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Greeks eat pasta and, just as you mentioned, pastitsio is a Greek dish (even though Italians have it as well). As far as orzo is concerned, yes, it is a typical Greek form of pasta called "krithara'ki" (κριθαράκι). Bon appétit! Pel thal (talk) 13:50, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Laganes is the traditional and by that i mean old, very old name for lasagna, and its origins are in the area of northern greece/ southern macedonia/ bulgaria. the greek for egg pasta is Hilopites and is widely eaten wherever durum semolina is grown. the ancient greeks probably had pasta, and trahanas is a very primitive form. slightly different but often confused as the same thing, the greeks have kis kis, which of course is couscous, which again is a type of pasta. a very very tenuous link might even be to yiouvarlakia, which if you stretch your imagination is not soooo far away from kanaderli, a dumpling found in various forms from northern italy to poland! Pasta in the sense that we know it probably began life in what is now afganistan, where they still eat ashak, a dish of stuffed pasta dressed with spicy meat sauce and yoghurt. the armenians, turks and god knows who else have manti stuffed pasta again and the cypriots have ravioli- stuffed with haloumi and mint. quite traditional but probably brought from italy in the last 700 years or so.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hotspury (talk • contribs) 01:51, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about Pasta 

message: Saw that an anonymous user deleted "trahanas" from the section citing ancient dishes.  Maybe its not an ancient dish (I don not know if it is or not and I cannot provide sources), but trahanas is not made out of yoghurt as this user states in his summary comment.  Just a clarification.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pel thal (talk • contribs) 14:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Trahanas

message: Hello everyone!  How come there is so much empty space before the actual text in some sections of this article?  Take a look at the "Origins" section for example.  Speaking for myself, I'm useless at fixing images etc but maybe someone else could look into this aesthetical "problem"?  Thanx! Pel thal (talk) 09:08, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Too much space in the "Origins" section