Talk:North Korean defectors

message: Anyone know the hanja for the above term? Just curious.Phonemonkey 23:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You could have simply clicked at the wiktionary links I have put in each component. Only min is Sino-Korean. Wikipeditor 10:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh, Ok. I just checked the wikitionary link though, but what does the first bit literally mean? Thanks. Phonemonkey 00:16, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I understand, seo and teo(-jeon) literally mean “new” and “place”, respectively. Wikipeditor 13:58, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Seoteomin

message: Can someone please explain what exactly these terms mean, so us monolingual types can understand why f'rinstance the North Koreans would object to the latter? --SigPig |SEND - OVER 14:31, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Sorry, I should have done that in the first place. Wikipeditor 13:58, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Saeteomin vs Talbukja

message: why isn't there an article or link on defectors to north korea?many koreans defected to the north in the late 1940s and early 50s as they were either expelled by the americans/synghman rhee or to escape persecution as they were communists.
There are also Americans who defected to north korea, and one, in particular, still lives there, and has a korean family.
http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/news/dp/2008020401
is it because wikipedia is choosing to hide facts in order to put forward a point of view?219.77.8.142 (talk) 06:55, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: defectors to north korea

message: I think that there must be a distinction made between the term "defector" as someone who disavows allegiance (the standard dictionary definition) to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea and thereby chooses residence in another country versus "refugee" and "economic migrant."
"Defection" to the People's Republic of China thereby does not make much sense since the two countries, PRC and DPRK, have diplomatic ties and economic and political systems that are very similar- ostensible commitments to socialism, one-party political leadership, and representation through democratic centralist structures. In the case of those who have left the DPRK for PRC, it appears that "economic migrant" is more accurate, since actual defector testimonies of people who live in northeast China or who have moved to South Korea from China stated that it was for the economic opportunity China posed. This is not to say that once you leave the DPRK you are not considered a defector by DPRK, but rather to make sure that we are not using a term that is so political and ideological in nature for an act that is otherwise considered migration in any other context. 
In many cases, there are people from the DPRK who engage in cyclical migration between the DPRK and China who have not necessarily disavowed their allegiance to the DPRK but are economic migrants or economic refugees - and there are numerous testimonies that show people migrated, especially young people, in search of a better life, or in order to seek what they see on media about China or South Korea, because the DPRK cannot provide these same opportunities for them. Some migrants do believe the DPRK needs systemic change; some are in the process of learning about the difference between systems, both ideological and substantive, and others hope to return to the DPRK.  
There is no doubt that the economic situation of the DPRK is dire, or that some of those who leave the DPRK are also political refugees, especially those who formerly had high positions within the DPRK administrative bodies. 
But if you trace the history of the term "defector", especially as it was used by the Republic of Korea, as well as acknowledge that those who leave the DPRK and settle in the South must, by law and in order to receive benefits, disavow allegiance to the DPRK, there is a fine line between voluntary 'defection' and the act of disavowing in order to survive in countries hostile to or not on friendly terms with the DPRK. 
I also am not sure how to do this yet, but for the record, numerous sections in the wiki article need citations. 
Owl33 (talk) 20:50, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are right, guys. Defector is different from refugee: "defector - a person who abandons their duty (as on a military post)" Călușaru' (talk) 22:45, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: A North Korean citizen is under a duty to remain in the country, so being an economic migrant or becoming a refugee is defection. User:Fred Bauder Talk 20:25, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  This reminds me of the Greek film Dogtooth. The article is in English, not in "North-Korean". And I didn't find your explanation above in the article. You know, people who got away from Romania before 1989 were considered traitors, but one wouldn't name "Traitors" an article about Romanian refugees, would he? We also had defectors, like Pacepa, and we couldn't name them simply "refugees", could we? Călușaru' (talk) 22:42, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the difference is this: if someone leaves the DPRK, they are generally not a refugee under international law, because they are automatically a citizen of the ROK. Therefore, they do not need to claim refugee anywhere, or prove a well-founded fear of persecution, but to get to South Korea, and that's a practical problem, not a legal problem.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:09, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Defectors versus refugees versus economic migrants

message: Here are a couple of sources about refugees in China. Not sure if they are linked or used in the article.   I would love to write an article just on North Korean refugees in China, but I just don't spend enough time working on WP anymore.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 13:36, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Couple of sources 

message: The introduction paragraph in this article mentions a few things including the famous defection of KPAF pilot, No Kum-sok. But how about editors consider adding ex-NK premier, Hwang Jang-yop's defection which is very famous and high profile too? It could add some seasoning on the introduction since the defection happened in less than two decades ago comparing to No's defection which happened nearly five decades ago.
Thanks. 125.161.146.214 (talk) 09:25, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  About Hwang Jang-yop's defection 

message: Would it be appropriate to have some sort of section in this article, or a similar article, about the adjustment that N. Koreans go through when they begin assimilation into their new countries? Dudanotak (talk) 06:44, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Psychological/cultural adjustment 

message: This is something great to add. Hopefully they still aren't repatriating them to this day either!
See this article, and add this extra info to our article somehow. Thanks. --129.130.18.100 (talk) 22:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "China Ends Repatriation of North Korean Refugees" 

message: The amount of information on the fate of refugees in S. Korea is totally disproportionate to the other countries listed. It also differs in kind, not just degree, with the amount of programs in place there for N. Korean refugees. Finally, there's already a page on N. Koreans living in S. Korea. Should perhaps there be a dedicated page to N. Korean defectors in S. Korea that would present all this information in a better manner? Korossyl (talk) 03:15, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  New N. Korean Defectors in S. Korea page 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: > North Koreans escape every day across the heavily guarded border to mainland China
To call that border heavy guarded is quite an overestimation... Read the Tumen river article on the wiki, it says the truth, i was there and saw that river, it's almost not patrolled at all.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.34.16.108 (talk) 11:41, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: China–North Korea border makes the same point. Neither the Yalu or the Tumen are heavily guarded. It's just an assumption that they ought to be. That sentence was tagged "citation needed" since January. I've now removed it. I've also removed the following sentence which said that defectors faced execution on return home. There was no citation for that, and it appears false.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:13, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  heavily guarded border to mainland China 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I have removed this from the article:
:Starting from 2008, especially after the Kim Jong-un regime in 2011, the number of North Korean defectors fell between 20,000 and 40,000.Yoonok Chang, Stephan Haggard, and Marcus Noland, (March 2008). Migration Experiences of North Korean Refugees: Survey Evidence from China. Peterson Institute for International Economics, Working Paper Series. Retrieved 26 September 2016.
This doesn't make sense. The number of defectors fell over what period? It's too high to be a yearly figure. The article  doesn't mention this figure as far as I can see, and since it was published in 2008, it can hardly be source for what has happened since then. I think it is true that numbers of defectors have fallen, but this is muddled.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:50, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demographics 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: I have removed this:
:This included requiring families that live near the border areas to take turns standing guard, having strong official warnings that three generations of a family would be destroyed if caught defecting, as well as having the defector being executed on-site. The number of North Korean defectors has dramatically decreased as a result.
It has been tagged "citation needed" since December, and doesn't reflect anything in the body of the article. I think claims like this desperately need citations, especially since we have cases of double defectors, which suggests the retribution is not that severe.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:05, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead - destruction of three generations 

message: I wanted to write a quick evaluation on this article. I found that the leading section made for a succinct and effective introduction to the topic of defectors. Although, for such a broad article, the introduction could also touch a bit on the common countries that the defectors head to. While I noticed that China had been mentioned quite a bit in the introduction, since China also holds another section in the article, maybe some of that information could be moved there. The structure is quite clear. There are relevant heading and subheadings that allow me to follow the different paths that the defectors take as well as how they adjust in the different countries. There is good balance to the article especially with South Korea and China given more weight. I believe that international response might need more information and split into different country's responses as well because different countries have different relationships with North Korea. The coverage is quite neutral. I don't see any biases towards this topic. While the references are quite reputable, I believe there should be a bit more references especially to some sentences that do not have a footnote. These are just some of my suggestion! Thank you. Atsang99 (talk) 21:18, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Evaluation 

message: The article says:
:A study by Kyung Hee University estimated that roughly 10,000 North Koreans live in the Russian Far East; many are escapees from North Korean work camps there. ... As of 1999, there were estimated to be only between 100 and 500 North Korean refugees in the area.
There is a major discrepancy between 10,000 and 100-500. I can't see that Lee's article actually says there are 10,000 North Koreans in the Russian Far East. It says that 10,000 Koreans migrated from Sakhalin Island to Russia. Am I missing something?--Jack Upland (talk) 00:38, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russia