Talk:Antichrist Superstar

message: I think this really needs to be done, but thought I should check first. The background section begins with the statement  "The album's title is a combination of the concept of the Antichrist with the title of the famed musical Jesus Christ Superstar." I feel this is a little simplistic and probably untrue. It is a statement on how the ugliest and most abhorred people can still become famous for their own reasons, and about using your power to become all you can be. The Jesus Christ Superstar comparison makes it sound like cheap shock tactics or a tacky parody. Also, I've yet to hear any audio evidence of it's similarity to the JCS score.
The other section that bothers me is the assertion that the Worm becomes a "rockstar". There's no real evidence of this lyric-wise, all this is based off is the fact that we're listening to music to begin with, and people always try to compare it to Pink Floyd's the Wall. There's some recordings of crowds chanting and cheering on the cd, but large and noisy crowds have gathered for all sorts of people who could be described as Superstars, whether it be Jesus, JFK, famous sportsmen, etc. This should be changed to simply "influential celebrity" or something similar. TheEmpiricalGuy (talk) 12:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleaning up the storyline 

message: I have reverted the edit of 82.74.199.19 back to Cryptorchid, as this is clearly what my copy's tracklisting states.
:It is, indeed, Cryptorchid. See also Cryptorchidism. Cparker 16:20, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cryptorchid or Cryptorchild?

message: *Brief Information about the Recording Venue of the album could be added.
*Line-up changes during the recording of this album (eg. Berkowitz leaving and Zim Zum joining)
*Quotes from Manson about the album, complimented by external links.
* The impact that his dreams had on the album, eg. in "Little Horn", as described in his autobiography. 
*Information about the recording sessions (mentioned in Manson's autobiography) could be added, eg. about the Minute of Decay etc.), complimented by reference linkd
*The significance of the number 3 according to Manson, and how he prophecized its Billboard appearance at number 3, supported by reference links.
*Other chart listings, eg. UK, Canada, Australia.
*Quotes from Manson supporting this supposed storyline the article maps, supported by reference links.
*Comment upon the album's direction in contrast to the sound of "Portrait of an American Family".
: The article talks about the repeating phrases but only tells about 'When you are suffering, know that i have betrayed you' at the end of ANTICHRIST SUPERSTAR but there is another cyclic message at the end of MAN THAT YOU FEAR "When all of your wishes are granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed"  There may be more but I can't remember them.  -$carface
:: The thing that makes the "if you are suffering, know that I have betrayed you" loop significant is that it both closes and opens the album. The repetition at the end of Man That You Fear is simply a repeated phrase within one song, and as such, not significant. (I changed the indentation on your comment to make for easier reading - hope you don't mind.)--Black Butterfly 13:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestions to Improve this Article 

message: I hate crap "like industrial rock/metal" and "alternative". They are no musical genres to me, they are just some stupid expressions used when a genre can`t be easily categorized. What do Marilyn Manson, NIN, Kiss and Rammstein have in common? They are all "industrial"... Keyboards? Come on! As well, what do Marilyn Manson have in common with alternative metal bands like HIM, Rage Against The Machine, Korn, System Of A Down, Tool - all "alternative metal" bands?
Well, what do you have in mind?
If you hate such "crap", then why are you looking this article up in the first place? --72.177.237.207 00:47, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He (?) seems to be saying that he dislikes vague, meaningless genre labels rather than the styles of music. I dislike the terms myself as they are essentially meaningless and totally arbitrary, but recognize that the labels are being used popularly and do fulfil a purpose. - It doesn't stick. (talk) 17:09, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Kiss are more "Industrial" than, say, Billy Joel, so why not? I think his point is that, unlike "Blues", "Hip-Hop", "Rockabilly", or "Jazz" (among others) "Industrial", "Industrial Rock", or "Industrial Metal" are too broadly defined to be meaningful when used to describe a certain group's style. I propose no solutions here, but am merely echoing my own frustrations with trying to properly define such things.--- It doesn't stick. (talk) 17:09, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Come on, to say Kiss is "more industrial" than ANYTHING is just stupid. Kiss clearly has NOTHING to do with industrial music, period. 71.116.54.77 (talk) 04:44, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the only person that would complain about MM being labeled as Industrial Rock/Metal is a person that doesn't even know what post-Industrial music is. You're only frustrated because of your lack of knowledge. You clearly show that by labeling KISS "Industrial".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.54.189.90 (talk) 08:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Industrial Rock? 

message: The song "Mr Superstar," it appears to me, is about the Worm killing the Superstar.
  "Hey, Mr. Superstar
  I'll kill you if I can't have you" 
Beret 19:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mr Superstar

message: Antichrist Superstar still features Adam as the sole character.  He is the rockstar, then the rockstar/worm hybrid, then the disintegrator.  Because the name Adam Kadmon represents the being that embodies all in the human realm and god realm, I figured that his change was incited by some divine influence to create an end to a destructive human path discussed more in detail on Holy Wood and Mechanical Animals.  He isn't simply human, he is a deity and "Inauguration of the Worm" and "Disintegrator Rising" are Adam realizing this and using that power (part by choice, part reluctantly) to create balance on earth by any means necessary.  All stories must have an end.  It began with Adam it should end with Adam.  His part in all three chapters is too large for Manson to simply write him off right in the middle of Superstar.  "Man that You Fear" has too broad of a message to only apply to half of an album.  It summarizes Adam's feelings of realizing how far he took his ideals and hatred (from all three records) and regretting his pleasure in it all, for he hurt all that he loved before.
Next:
I agree that there is only one central character, but I disagree on the order.  The three forms that the central character takes are
1.  Worm
2.  Rockstar/superstar
3.  Antichrist
You may have placed rockstar first because of the first track, where the character is already a rockstar.  In my opinion, the first track on the album actually takes place later in the story, after the worm has become the superstar.  It is a common storytelling device to begin the narrative deep within the story, almost near the climax, and then "flash back" to discuss earlier influential events/themes.
Lsyn 20:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems there are quite a few contributors here who are knowledgeable on the backstory of the trilogy. I've recently tried to cleanup some of the Holy Wood article's rough edges and found section for the synopsis somewhat lacking and with dubious info ~ Adam turned into a repressive tyrant? Please, if anyone can devote some time to that page. Also, I think this begs the question of whether the trilogy itself deserves its own dedicated article.
202.65.191.138 (talk) 12:43, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've recently overhauled that section of the Holy Wood article. Check to see it is improved.
-121.96.181.169 (talk) 10:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Worm as another person? 

message: :It seems there are quite a few contributors here who are knowledgeable on the backstory of the trilogy. I've recently tried to cleanup some of the Holy Wood article's rough edges and found section for the synopsis somewhat lacking and with dubious info ~ Adam turned into a repressive tyrant? Please, if anyone can devote some time to that page. Also, I think this begs the question of whether the trilogy itself deserves its own dedicated article.
202.65.191.138 (talk) 12:43, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've recently overhauled that section of the Holy Wood article. Check to see it is improved.
-121.96.181.169 (talk) 10:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Need Help with Holy Wood Article

message: Note that Cryptorchid is probably intended as a dual meaning: a cryptorchid is a medical term for someone genderless or robbed from his malehood, but it can also be read as a "crypt orchid": a flower on a grave. In the song the transformation into an evil character is starting ("when a boy is still a worm it's hard to get to number 7" - "the moon has now eclipsed the sun, the angel has spread his wings, the time has come for bitter things"). In the video of the song (not sure if it an official video, but it is all over the internet) the Angel of Death appears, as a symbol of transformation into the evil character who in the end causes the apocalypse (in the song Reflecting God). Manson himself stated a few times that the album was based on his own view and interpretation of the apocalypse.
Please note the errors in the previous post. The antichrist, Little Horn, does not destroy the world in The Reflecting God as was posted, because in this particular track, the antichrist has already destroyed the world and is reflecting on what he has done. He actually destoyed the world in Minute of Decay.
 
Second Opinion:
I don't agree.  "The Reflecting God" is clearly the climax of the storyline, in which the antichrist brings apocalypse, not by literally "destroying the world", but by destroying the concept of God ('killing' God) in the minds of his followers.  Part of the chorus is the superstar/antichrist character revealing the nature of God to his followers,
"I went to God just to see,
and I was looking at me.
Saw heaven and hell were lies,
when I'm God everyone dies."
The antichrist understands that he can be God through his own will (this reminds me of Nietzsche's 'will to power' concept.)  The subsequent "scar, scar, can you feel my power" represents the violent act of 'killing' God.
Lsyn 20:49, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cryptorchid 

message: uhh, isnt there a song on the album called "1996" its all about Anti- stuff, or is that on a different album, because lyrics sites have it listed as part of "Antichrist Superstar"
: it's track thirteen on this album, as listed in the article. --Black Butterfly 10:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  1996 

message: Daisy does have credits to the album, even if not present on the original printings. - MSTCrow 21:51, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Daisy Berkowitz Credits? 

message: Can sombody confirm the track listing? I'm at work so cannot (only have the CD), but my BMG Music Club pressing of the CD has the title track on 13 but 2 and 14 definitely match. — RevRagnarok Talk Contrib 17:51, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Track Listing 

message: You're joking right? Zazaban 21:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, why would we? See hidden track. — RevRagnarok Talk Contrib 02:06, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, as explained. NIN's Broken did it the same way... — RevRagnarok Talk Contrib 02:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well I'll be damned..... Zazaban 05:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tracks 17-98 

message: I have removed the following from the article:
On an interesting note, some of the blank tracks have names. Playing the CD on Windows Media Player allows the listener to see these titles:
*17) untitled
*18) Reunion   
*19) Cleansing   
*20) spiderman   
*21) Untitled   
*22-98) [Silence] 
As it is unreferenced and dubious at best ("spiderman"?). unless any reputable reference can be found indicating that (a) this is actually the case, and (b) that it is intentional (ie not someone renaming the tracks prior to putting them on a file sharing service), I feel it does not belong here.
Incidentally, both Reunion and Cleansing are tracks by Marilyn Manson - but they are instrumentals from Resident Evil (soundtrack). --Black Butterfly 11:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  track listing (again) 

message: "The influence of the latter can also be seen in the song "Angel with the Scabbed Wings", which features a riff strongly reminiscent of a portion of the Jesus Christ Superstar score."
Does anyone have an audio proof of this? Buzda 03:45, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Angel with the Scabbed Wings 

message: Why do people keep removing the link to Antichrist Superstar (Marilyn Manson song)? It's a song from this album, with its own article, so I see no reason not to link to it. --Black Butterfly 12:59, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antichrist Superstar (song) 

message: :Image:Marilyn Manson - Antichrist Superstar.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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BetacommandBot 05:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Marilyn Manson - Antichrist Superstar.jpg

message: Could we find better reviews? The RS one leads to an archive that has nothing to do with manson, and the other one leads to a page that tries to install a DLL onto your computer.
24.207.58.166 (talk) 17:44, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Reviews of the Album

message: This is one of my favorite albums, and being curious about the background of the album I checked here a few months back to see what I could find.  Ultimately, I found myself disappointed in the quality of the article.  
Today, I came back to check it out after listening to the CD again, and nothing has really changed.
Since it's been a while now, I'm assuming it's a pretty cold topic that will probably never get cleaned up.  But just in case anyone does stumble upon this page and feels the same way and is actually willing to try, then I just have one thing to say.
The biggest problem with this page (and a seemingly endless list of other pages on Wikipedia without a doubt,) is that there are no citations or references to any outside sources, other than what seems to be complete opinion.  If you scroll down to "references" at the bottom of the wiki, you'll see that there's two references.  The first one is cited to the genre "Heavy Metal" under the information of the album, and the second one cites how many copies have been sold around the world, and that's it.
That's pathetic.
Now to me, the story to this album seems very vague overall, leaving it as a very open topic for discussion.  And as interesting as all of these ideas are, none of them are fact, (that is, they are not proven to be fact.)  Find some primary sources, like from the artist in question!  Secondary sources are great too, which can be found almost anywhere like; record companies, fan pages, articles, whatever!  Just cite the things you put here with an appropriate reference.  Otherwise, the page will probably just get deleted someday.
Hoping for the best and what this album deserves,
 - Mariachi  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mariachi2324 (talk • contribs) 22:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  I have to say 

message: I know that he's in the song list section as having written most of the music but I think sentence should be added somewhere describing his importance. Kansaikiwi (talk) 14:43, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  More credit for Twiggy 

message: It adds up to 33, the age when Jesus died. Inevitably, 33 adds up to six, the number of the beast ohnoes!. Should this be included?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.50.144.235 (talk) 23:19, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irresponsible hate anthem 02-14-1997 

message: I know that ABC News is allegedly a "good source", but before their article came out, it was stated that Antichrist Superstar has sold over 7.5 Million copies, and i remember it was published on MTV and on a coverage about him on another channel in 2008.
If you have any information please comment.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hellspriest (talk • contribs) 04:48, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Total Worldwide Sales 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100805093452/http://www.cria.ca/cert_db_search.php to http://www.cria.ca/cert_db_search.php
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*Added  tag to http://riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?resultpage=1&table=SEARCH_RESULTS&action=&title=Antichrist%20Superstar&artist=Marilyn%20Manson&format=&debutLP=&category=&sex=&releaseDate=&requestNo=&type=&level=&label=&company=&certificationDate=&awardDescription=&catalogNo=&aSex=&rec_id=&charField=&gold=&platinum=&multiPlat=&level2=&certDate=&album=&id=&after=&before=&startMonth=1&endMonth=1&startYear=1958&endYear=2010&sort=Artist&perPage=25
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120927140227/http://www.interscope.com/artist/releases/detail.aspx?&aid=554&in=11 to http://www.interscope.com/artist/releases/detail.aspx?&aid=554&in=11
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I think we should remove industrial rock and progressive metal. The body says that the album is primarily an industrial metal album and that it has ELEMENTS of progressive metal and industrial rock. It also says that the album has elements of death metal, new wave, and gothic rock, but that doesn't mean we should add those genres (death metal, new wave, gothic rock) to the genre field. Statik N (talk) 11:40, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genre 

message: I noticed that this was nominated for an FAC and I was about to post my comments. Hopefully, this will be helpful if you decide to put this up for the FAC process again in the future. My comments are below:
*Add ALT text for the infobox images. I would make sure that all of the images in the article have appropriate ALT text.
*I am uncertain if the “storyline” and “metaphor” wikilinks are necessary. It may be beneficial to remove them to avoid having too many wikilinks.
*For this part (The album was supported by the controversial "Dead to the World Tour", which), tour names are not placed in quotation marks. They are typically just used on their own without any italics, quotation marks, or any of that.
*In the lead and infobox, you refer to “Nothing Records” as simply “Nothing”, but you use the full title in the body of the article. I would be consistent with either one.
*I have a comment for this part (Manson revealed that Antichrist Superstar formed a). I have been told in the past to avoid the word “revealed” as it can be interpreted as somewhat editorial. I would use a different word.
*For this part (This performance was controversial,), could you clarify in the text why this performance was controversial? Right now it is unclear to anyone who is not familiar with the performance in question.
*You have Rolling Stone wikilinked multiple times in the article.
*For this image caption (Manson performing on the Dead to the World Tour), I would specify which song he is performing if it is known.
*The “Media data and Non-free use rationale” box for the alternate cover is incomplete, specifically in the “Not replaceable with free media because” and “Respect for commercial opportunities” parameters.
I hope you have a great rest of the year! Aoba47 (talk) 22:52, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow  I wasn't expecting a review this quick. ;) Thanks. I did nominate this article for FAC, but the admins there removed it because you can't nominate any article until at least two weeks after your previous nomination was archived. So I'll get to work on your comments right away (unless you'd prefer I deal with them during the actual FAC process?). In either case, I'll be re-submitting this article for FAC on January 11, unless I get an exemption beforehand. Was really cool of you to jump on this so soon. Thanks again. ;) Homeostasis07 (talk) 23:23, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  You could definitely work through my comments now if you would like. I will make sure to look through the article again when you re-nominate it in the future. It is easy to forget about the two-week rule; I have certainly done that in the past lol. I try to help out with FACs on topics that I am more comfortable providing feedback on. Since I have done work on music-related articles, I thought that I could at least provide a little help. You have done a great job with this! Let me know if you have any questions about my comments/suggestions. Aoba47 (talk) 23:33, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks Aoba. If you don't mind... I'll work on your comments above, but would prefer to wait until these suggestions are posted to the actual FAC before I make any fixes. I mean... I spent 6 months doing this, but apparently all of that commentary wasn't worth a damn to FAC coordinators – well, "Alan"/Laser brain – unless those comments were posted directly to Jill's FAC page. I don't know... I'm starting to think A-class is clearly the new FA—an actual collaborative environment devoid of argumentative nonsense. I wouldn't be surprised if A-class ends up usurping FA's role come 2020, at this rate. I guess I'll be taking the next two weeks to figure out if it's even worth the effort to get either of these articles to FA. Maybe one last shot. ;) Homeostasis07 (talk) 01:27, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: FAC comments/suggestions

message: Anyone else getting Gilles Deleuze's Anti-Oedipus vibes with this album? They're both preoccupied with overcoming the "fascism in us all" and "the fascism that causes us to love power, to desire the very thing that dominates and exploits us." Manson himself said this album was about "using your power and watching that power destroy you and everyone else around you." It's also not surprising Anti-Oedipus has been called the sequel to Nietzsche's "The Antichrist". -Red marquis (talk) 01:38, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inspired by Gilles Deleuze's Anti-Oedipus?