Talk:Turnpike trust

message: In making a number of amendments, I have removed a phrase that implied that tolls were levied for private profit.  Unlike canals, which usually belonged to a company, earning profit for its shareholders, turnpike trusts were only able to raise money on loan by mortgaging the tits.  Peterkingiron 22:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Amendments

message: I have tagged this article and History of toll roads in the United Kingdom for merger, because they seem to cover much the same ground.  Strictly the history of toll roads might be slightly broader in that it would cover medieval pontage  and pavage grants; the roads administered by the Justices in Quarter Sessions before the first Turnpike Act; M6 (Toll).  This article might be restricted to exclude precursors and successors of turnpikes.  However, neither article is really long enough to need splitting into two.  I have accordingly not suggested which title should survive.  Comments please.  Peterkingiron (talk) 21:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree with a merger and would actually do it to a new article of Toll roads in the United Kingdom which would cover not only history but also current day activities. Regan123 (talk) 13:07, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK.  Perhaps we put it all together and then create summary articles (as per WP:SUMMARY) which is probably the best way to go.  I will do it, but my to do list grows exponentially compared with my free time! Regan123 (talk) 23:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have started work on the proposed merger, by restructuring the article, but I have not actually "merged" the turnpike section of History of toll roads in the United Kingdom with this article.  That is a future job.  Peterkingiron (talk) 19:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have undertaken further work on this, but had not found what is below, which propbably also needs ot be merged inot this article.  Peterkingiron (talk) 19:14, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 

message: Turnpike trusts also operated in the US (see List of turnpikes in Connecticut as an example). That article links to this one which is only UK in scope. We need to broaden the article to describe turnpike trusts in other countries or limit its scvope to UK only trusts. Lumos3 (talk) 09:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would strongly suggest that the article should retain its original funcion of dealing with Britain.  If necessary it could be renamed accordingly.  We have recently separated this article from a tree of articles on Toll roads.  Unless instances of turnpikes run by bodies of trustees occur elsewhere, there is no reason for non-British material to invade this article.  If necessary, an article Turnpike Trusts in United States could be created.  Peterkingiron (talk) 00:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  United States 

message: Should this article be called Turnpike Trusts in Great Britain?  It doesn't mention any turnpikes created in Ireland. The state was called the Kingdom of Great Britain from 1707 to 1801 - most of the period covered by this article. Yaris678 (talk) 17:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you really must be pendantic, you are probably strictly right.  However turnpikes continued to operate until the 1870s, by which time it was Great Britain.  The present title results in part from the need to distinguish British turnpikes from toll roads elsewhere.  This and related articles on toll roads were formerly swamped by information relating to other countries and it was necessary to fork off a British article from these.  In fact, I am not sure that Scotland went in for turnpike roads, so that perhpaps it should be "Turnpike trusts in England and Wales".  Peterkingiron (talk) 22:10, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Name

message: I'm suggesting these two articles be merged, the other article is rather spurious.  Without reading this article in detail, I cannot see any value in having them both.  I suggest the smaller article be used as a redirect to this one. Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:58, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The other article contains nothign of substance to duplicate this one; so it does not need merging, but converting to a redirect.  The alternative would be to delete it, but redirects are harmless.  Peterkingiron (talk) 23:08, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that this should be the only article on Turnpike roads in the UK.  But I do not think it should be entitled ".... in the United Kingdom" unless there are such roads in Ireland (which I do not know). The title should mention the area in which such roads exist i.e UK if they existed in Ireland, England & Wales if they were limited to those countries, or Great Britain if there ere turnpikes in Scotland but not in Ireland.  I think that 'England & Wales' is probably right but will bow to anyone's superior knowledge Waysider1925 (talk) 19:04, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In view of the lack of furhter comment, I have converted the other article (Turnpike Trusts (Britain) to a redirect to this one, as I suggested above.  There was nothing in it worth merging.  I am also unclear whether there were turnpikes in Scotland or Ireland: if there were something needs to be added about them; if not, the present title does no harm.  Peterkingiron (talk) 22:45, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: I have no objection to a map being added, but the problem is that almost every main road in England and Wales existing in 1900 was a former turnpike.  No general map could be provided occupying less than a whole page.  The simple solution would be to copy one from one of the text books, but that would be a copy-vio.  Peterkingiron (talk) 21:09, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not if the map is old enough.  John Cary's maps will be well out of copyright by now, and all OS maps over 50 years old are copyright-free.  Here's a Lancs map - Cary 1814 Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:14, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I was thinking of trying to put up a map of the whole of England, which would be difficult.  I am not opposing having a map, merely seeking to point out the diffciulties.  Peterkingiron (talk) 22:30, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm working on something for Greater Manchester Turnpikes right now.  I'll let you know what I do map-wise, it shouldn't be too difficult for me to produce one. Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:43, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Because of my interests in turnpikes and related topics in real life in Cheshire, I am in the process of trying to locate as much information about them in the county, which may mean going to the County records Office in Chester for a day or so. There are a number of book sources I have which may well be useful for Cheshire: the Victoria History books, of which I have the first three volumes and have access to the two part volume 5 for Chester. Map b on page 77 of my copy of  contains a map of the turnpike roads in Cheshire illustrated by 4 date ranges for when they were established, though details of the exact routes may require going to other local history sources  (of which I have a collection, tough not an exhaustive one) I believe it is acceptable to redraw a map anew, using a published one as a reliable source for verification purposes. I've also got some information for Cheshire and other parts of the UK in two specific books about Turnpikes in the UK I recently bought:  and . I'm also about to get a book about the road system prior to the Turnpikes, which might also contain some useful information, and I already possess other books about Milestones and Mileposts which may have useful information as well. I'll have a look through them and see if any useful information for maps can be found.  DDStretch  (talk) 01:26, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The map in Albert was one of those I was thinking of, but it and the other sources you mention are all in copyright.  In the course of research a year or two back, I went through a lot of Turnpike Acts, which give details of the roads affected.  Often it is in the long title, though sometimes not fully until one reaches the text.  Preparing a map for one county would be very feasible.  There are articles on many modern main roads.  A start might be to identify the Acts by which they were turnpiked.  I regret that I do not know the immediate sources for Cheshire, but those for Shropshire are in B. Trinder, Industrial Archaeology of Shropshire.  For Staffordshire, they are in a volume published by Staffordshire Record Society.  Have a look at (for example A449 road, A456 road, and A491 road to see what I mean.  However, I suspect that if you wanted to put up a map, you would have to draw (or redraw it) it yourself, unless you can find a contemporary map (e.g. Cary) that clearly distinguishes turpikes from other roads.  Peterkingiron (talk) 11:02, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, I don't know the books but if the maps are derivative works based on older maps that are currently out of copyright, then I could be mistaken but I believe that those maps will also be copyright-free.  It's a bit of a minefield though. Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:28, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Thanks for the tips and hints, which were as I suspected, but it is good to see that I'm following in agreement with someone else who is obviously more knowledgeable about this matter. I have re-drawn and drafted maps for other purposes on wikipedia before, and so I'm resigned to having to do that for the route maps we are discussing here. In fact, I would have been very surprised indeed if there were maps found that could have simply been used without running into copyright restrictions. I already know the routes of some of the turnpikes around south east Cheshire, but further afield requires more work on my part. Sometimes the presence of mileposts and milestones can give hints that help direct searches, and it is mileposts and milestones that were my entry into this area of interest in the first place.  DDStretch  (talk) 12:06, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My plan for a map of turnpike roads in GM is simply to use [maps from here] as a template to create roadmaps in either Photoshop or Inkscape.  It's time-consuming and laborious but eventually anything I produce will be in the public domain, and others able to work on them.  It helps that a large proportion of old turnpike roads still run along very similar paths today - although my map will be based upon the older route, and not include any modern short-cuts or deviations. Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:12, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: May I wish you the best of luck with this project.  I expect your draughtsmanship is better than mine! Peterkingiron (talk) 16:37, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So far the .psd file is 300MB, and I'm only 2/3rds into it :)  The finished .png will probably be pretty big, although I can do a .svg version that should be fairly tiny.  I'm rubbish with .svg files though. Parrot of Doom (talk) 23:50, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Repeating factual information is not a copyvio since facts cannot be copyrighted. Copyright relates to a work so if you want to use an existing map it must be out of copyright. If you source information from other maps but draw the whole thing yourself its not a copyvio. Its courtesy to state where your sources are from though. Good luck with the map I look forward to seeing it. Lumos3 (talk) 23:22, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map? 

message: I've just created this article.  I still have information to add but if anyone can contribute, with references, please do so :) Parrot of Doom (talk) 23:26, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no reason why we should not have articles on turpikes by area, but I would suggest that the area should be the historic (pre-1974) counties, rather than modern constructs like Greater Manchester.  I am also not sure of the merits of the table, as currently presented; perhaps fewer columns might be better.  Peterkingiron (talk) 23:35, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the article is still embryonic, I believe I can find more data but if not it's a simple matter to delete any columns not required.  As for the merits of which counties are covered - again, its an easy matter to separate things, but Lancashire is a much bigger place than GM :)  Start small... Parrot of Doom (talk) 23:50, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Proud Greater Mancunian... but I'm semi inclined to agree with Peter. I've struggled to get the lead around the anachronisms. Although that said, these trusts seem to cross the ancient boundries. --Jza84 |  Talk   00:54, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not know the structure of the turnpike network in your area.  In the west Midlands, there were a lot of trusts based on towns and here it may be more appropriate to deal with them on that basis.  Elsewhere, there were a series of trusts dealing with successive sections of the greatest reads (e.g. Great North Road and Watling Street).  It may be best to add sections on turnpikes to articles on roads.  Possibly, your object might be to have an article on turnpikes from Manchester.  Peterkingiron (talk) 01:01, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict reply to Jza84) Yes, the trusts do cross borders of ancient counties (these are what sometimes get called "historic counties", though the term "ancient counties" is what the entities that existed at the time of the trusts are now called in authoritative sources). The problem is that such times are now sufficiently remote that it may require careful wording to not cause more confusion. I suggest that a clear decision is made to include all trusts that either (a) have an end-point situated within Greater Manchester, or (b) pass completely through it (i.e, have both end-points outside the border but which have stretches that go through Greater Manchester). This can be given as defining the scope of the article more clearly, and would be quite reasonable restriction under the circumstances.  DDStretch  (talk) 01:03, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Presently the table includes only trusts who have a start or end point in Greater Manchester - although I'm almost certain the table isn't complete in that respect. Parrot of Doom (talk) 01:07, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Bear in mind that there were 1,119 trusts in England and Wales in 1836.  It's a big job! Parrot of Doom (talk) 01:09, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I'm aware of that. When I was asked in real life to see if I could do something about them (and other matters) in Cheshire, I wasn't aware just how much of a job it would be.  DDStretch  (talk) 01:14, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a book I've been using to fill in the lengths section of the tables in this article, although one or two of the scans are missing the yards section.  It's a good list though. Parrot of Doom (talk) 01:24, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Turnpike trusts in Greater Manchester]] 

message: See: Talk:Turnpike (disambiguation)‎ --ClemRutter (talk) 10:09, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Related discussion 

message: So many toll houses seem to be small and cylindrical in design. Was this to allow the collector to survey the road in both directions easily? Is this a facet of the panopticon system?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:248C:1865:242:AC3C (talk) 21:39, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Architecture