Talk:Holocaust denial/Archive 6

message: Denial by not mentioning it???? Winston Churchill apparently never mentioned the mass gassing of 6 million people in the six volume book he wrote about the second World War. Interesting. Actually amazing that he never spoke of theses horrible deaths. Could it be because British Intel knew there were no mass executions? Could it be because they did know there were mass gassings and just never mentioned it to him? Keltik31 21:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Churchill lie comes up again and again, but only a small amount of research needs doing to expose this fraud. From this site about Churchill- Churchill knew about the Holocaust; and contrary to popular belief, he tried to do something about it. Never heard of these events, you were saying? Cantankrus 22:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Anyway, the six million is untrue. Raul Hilberg has made it clear it were "only" 5.1 million. RCS 22:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  sir winston churchill 

message: Wouldn't it be responsible to call these people "revisionists" and not "deniers"? Isn't "denier" a strong term and could be perceived as a misconception which would spread to all wiki viewers? This isn't really a debatible question as all serious Holocaust revisionists are indeed revisionists and not deniers?
Maybe you could make the name of the entry "Holocaust Revisionism" with a subsection called "Holocaust Denial" specifying the difference here?
-Dan 206.172.139.115 01:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Again 

message: This article of mine may not conform to the neutral viewpoint or its tone may not be appropriate for an article of an encyclopedia. Please make suggestions and help change it better. Here it is:
In Estonia, the only country marked as judenfrei in the Nazi maps, there are many neo-nazis and Holocaust deniers. One reason is that, during the World War II, about 80,000 Estonian men decided to defend the independence of Estonia, which the Soviet Union had annexed in 1940, and, because of the lack of weapons and munition, they fought in the Nazi army. Now the veterans celebrate often their partial success in fighting against the Red Army, for instance the victory in 'Blue Mountains' (Sinimäed) where 30,000 Estonian men in German uniforms fought against 130,000 Soviet soldiers and won the battle (120,000 Russian warriors were killed). And, as those veterans are defamed by zionist organizations, they all hate Jews and therefore deny the Holocaust. There are also two well-known Estonian Holocaust-deniers who have published books in which they reveal an extreme revisionism and Holocaust-denial. Jüri Lina published a book Skorpioni märgi all (Under the Sign of Scorpion, 1996) and Tiit Madisson three books: Maailma Uus Kord (New World Order), Lihula õppetund (The Lesson of Lihula) and Holokaust: 20. sajandi masendavaim sionstlik vale (Holocaust: The Most Depressing Zionist Lie of the 20th century).
It is also possible that the hate of Jews which many Estonians express is actually the hate of the half-century's subjugation by Soviet Russia; for many of these Holocaust deniers think that Jews are connected with the supposed war crimes which the Red Army brought about in Estonia during the World War II, and after that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.196.80.44 (talk • contribs) 14:17, 19 November 2006  (UTC)
:There are a lot of things that would need to be fixed in this section, I think. Looking at it in detail:
::In Estonia, the only country marked as judenfrei in the Nazi maps, 
:Unreferenced. Which maps? What does this mean in the context of the article?
::there are many neo-nazis and Holocaust deniers.
:Unreferenced, possible POV. How many? Who are they?
::One reason is that, during the World War II, about 80,000 Estonian men decided to defend the independence of Estonia, which the Soviet Union had annexed in 1940, and, because of the lack of weapons and munition, they fought in the Nazi army.
:Speculation, possible original research, unreferenced. Is there a source for the numbers? How do we know their motivation for joining the German army?
::Now the veterans celebrate often their partial success in fighting against the Red Army, for instance the victory in 'Blue Mountains' (Sinimäed) where 30,000 Estonian men in German uniforms fought against 130,000 Soviet soldiers and won the battle (120,000 Russian warriors were killed).
:Unreferenced details.
::And, as those veterans are defamed by zionist organizations,
:Unreferenced, speculation - which organizations? Who says they are Zionist? What form does this defamation take?
::they all hate Jews and therefore deny the Holocaust.
:This sentence, along with the previous one, appear to be pure speculation and original research. A conclusion is drawn ("Estonian veterans are mad at Zionists for defaming them, so they deny the Holocaust") which is original research, and which is based on two premises ("Zionists defame Estonian veterans" and "Estonian veterans deny the Holocaust") that are not supported by references.
::There are also two well-known Estonian Holocaust-deniers who have published books in which they reveal an extreme revisionism and Holocaust-denial. Jüri Lina published a book Skorpioni märgi all (Under the Sign of Scorpion, 1996) and Tiit Madisson three books: Maailma Uus Kord (New World Order), Lihula õppetund (The Lesson of Lihula) and Holokaust: 20. sajandi masendavaim sionstlik vale (Holocaust: The Most Depressing Zionist Lie of the 20th century).
:Unreferenced.
::It is also possible that the hate of Jews which many Estonians express is actually the hate of the half-century's subjugation by Soviet Russia; for many of these Holocaust deniers think that Jews are connected with the supposed war crimes which the Red Army brought about in Estonia during the World War II, and after that.
:More speculation and original research based on unreferenced suppositions.
:I don't know enough about Holocaust denial in Estonia to tell how true or supportable any of this section is, but as written it needs to be either cleaned up or deleted. Eron 15:03, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holocaust denial in Estonia 

message: I've always wondered if Holocaust Deniers are lying so that they can rehabilitate fascism and Nazism, or if they're crazy conspiracy theorists and really believe what they're saying like 9/11 Conspiracy Theories people.  --Havermayer 05:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I did that, to remove a personal attack (made against you) and your response to it (which repeated the attack, and which would have made no sense without it). This is an acceptable response, as detailed in Wikipedia:No personal attacks: "Many Wikipedians remove personal attacks on third parties on sight, and although this isn't policy it's often seen as an appropriate reaction to extreme personal abuse." It's still available in the history for anyone who really wants to see it, but there's no need to clutter up this talk page with that sort of thing. Eron 22:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do Holocaust Deniers really believe that it never happened? 

message: This section title should be changed or deleted, mainly because it implies that Holocaust denial is rampant in the "Muslim world", which it is not. Instead why not just leave specific references, like the rest of the article - i.e. Hamas and Holocaust denial, Ahmadinejad and Holocaust denial, etc.??? Same thing should also be done with Japan Scott 110 23:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed some things around. One thing that people need to keep in mind is that the "Muslim world" is not the "Arab world". Yes, most Arabs are Muslim, but most Muslims are not Arab. See :Image:Muslim World.png. Koweja 22:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "In the Muslim world" 

message: "For example, one film of supposed Holocaust victims, shown to Germans after the war, in fact depicted German civilians being treated after Allied bombing of Dresden."
This is probably a subjective issue, but the "in fact" makes the sentence awkward. See Strunk and White, 4th ed.
05:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible grammatical errors 

message: I've added some  tags for claims, that are largely unreferenced. I don't think any of them can be allowed to go unchalllenged, and find some of the denial claims in particular very offensive. Reillyd 09:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure that all the facts of the Holocaust need to be referenced in this article. This is an article about Holocaust denial, not about the Holocaust itself. What needs to be referenced is the fact that Holocaust deniers have made certain claims, not the claims themselves. Equally, the facts of the Holocaust cited by those who rebut deniers are well-sourced elsewhere; what needs to be cited here is the fact that these rebuttals have been made. - Eron Talk 13:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks Eron, I goofed. I should have read the talk page before editing :) Reillyd 09:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lack of ((fact)) references for EITHER claims against, or for, denial 

message: The long list of countries and their penalties is interesting data but real ugly to read. I've made a stab at a table: yeah or bleah? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 05:52, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent. Thank you. :-) SlimVirgin (talk) 08:31, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Laws against" list 

message: This fella is known for making incredible statements, such as the number of Jews killed by NAZIs is actually much smaller, that there is no proof of Treblinka murders, etc.
He, as many deniers do, claims himself to be merely a "revisionist".  Where does he truly fit? Goliath74 23:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless he actually "denies" the Holocaust (as in, he doesn't believe it happened at all), I'd be reluctant to call him a denier. .V. 23:29, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Depends on what numbers he claims are real. If says it was 5 million instead of 6 million, then no he isn't a denier since the exact number is unknown. However, if he says it was only 500 instead of 5 million, then yes it would be a denial. Koweja 23:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lubomyr Prytulak 

message: This text showed up in the article, but even a cursory glance suggests that it is little more than a plug for a Japanese Web site:
A “The Study Group on Historical Revisionism”The Study Group on Historical Revisionism   is the leading study group of Holocaust denial on the Internet. The website “The Upset Suit of Miss Sofia”The Upset Suit of Miss Sofia  explains Holocaust denial in a relaxed but elaborate manner with a number of manga-like illustrations directed mainly at the youth market.
"Leading study group of Holocaust denial on the Internet?"  How can one Web site be the "leading" site on the Internet -- especially when it has never been referenced by anyone else, ever?  A Google search for this Web site shows absolutely no links to it whatsoever, other than the site itself.  This seems more like blatant advertising than anything else. --Modemac 12:24, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese denial Web site