Talk:Cass Elliot

message: Any pictures of call elliot? I am interested in what she looks (looked) like. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TullFan2000 (talk • contribs) 
:Though it probably wasn't there when you posted this question, now their is a pic of the whole band at the beginning of the article. — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pics? 

message: Again, I'm finding all of this ham sandwich stuff offensive and demeaning to the article - the so-called "references in the media" section and the "urban legend" nonsense. Yes, I know that this is part of the story about her, so maybe one mention would be ok - at most that the mistaken report of her choking went on to fuel years of jokes -  but it's starting to feel like a contest for who can find the most obnoxious and unimportant references to this woman's death.  I haven't checked, but I'd bet that Abraham Lincoln doesn't include the joke that starts "But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln...". Yeah, I know, not the same thing.  Is this just me, or does anyone else find this somewhere between incredibly juvenile and very sick?  And why is it worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia???Tvoz 02:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree to the changes you made except one.  You made it sound like John Phillips admitted that he made up the story about her being hit on the head and it changing her voice.  He never admitted to making up the story.  As a matter of fact, Ellot herself validated the story in a Rolling Stone article.  Why would you remove that?  I admit that having a pipe hit you on the head is a strange way to get a voice change, but since she admitted it, it should be left in.  Other than that, I agree to the changes. — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I'm sure  I responded here but I must have forgotten to hit save. Let's see if I remember what I said.  My reasoning is as follows: Cass's interview was in 1968, when the M&P were still more or less intact. Yes, she said it was true, but John's interview was in 1986, long after her death, and it sounds to me like he was indeed revealing the background truth of that story.  I read (will look for the citation) that the reason he used that excuse as to why he had not originally let her in the group was because the real reason had nothing to do with her voice (which of course was spectacular with or without the 3 notes) but had to do with her weight, her look.  I think I didn't put that in the piece because it may have been someone else's view of why JOhn made up the story - but I will check into this whole thing further in the next few days.  But if you look back at the way our article read before my change, there was a clear implication that John had indeed said he made up the story.  If that is in fact the truth, that he made up the story, the fact that she validated the story doesn't really mean anything - we don';t know what her motivation was. Maybe she knew the real reason for JOhn's making up the story (about her weight) and didn't want to validate that.  This is speculation,of course, as much as the rest of this section is.  So I tried to stick to the citable "facts".   But by the way - as far as I'm concerned, the entire "pipe on the head" section could be removed from the article in its entirety, and I would be happy.  I don't think it adds anything, any more than the ham sandwich.  But the ham sandwich myth is so well-known that I guess it would be odd for it not to be alluded to.   So - I'd say remove the whole pipe thing, but I won't do it yet, pending hearing from you and others here.  Tvoz 09:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd read a bit on it elsewhere and I'm not sure. I read something where her sister said the whole "changing voice" thing was nonsense, but I don't think she denied that she had an accident. Possibly she did get hit by a pipe, but the result was ordinary. (Pain, a knot on the head, maybe brief unconsciousness) After that they decided to use that to build a legend/excuse.--T. Anthony 11:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's how it seems to me too - I'm trying to get a copy of the video or a transcript of it to see if anything else is revealed - if not, I am inclined to remove the whole section.  Tvoz | talk 06:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is offensive 

message: Denny Doherty's claim about the name, "The Mamas and the Papas" implies that this was the first occasion (1965) that Cass called herself "mama" but that is contradicted by the illustration just above of the album cover of "The Big Three" which was apparently issued in 1963. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.12.252.11 (talk • contribs) 
:Right you are!  But Doherty himself says that his memory of the 60s is fuzzy, since everyone was doing so many drugs and such.  But that is according to him anyway, and it is cited.  You can express the contradiction, if you like, but we have to be careful about original research, so please provide a ref if you can. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 13:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of the name

message: How much did she weigh?  The article makes no mention of this.  Thanks in advance.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.159.186 (talk) 17:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's probably because people's weight isn't a matter of public record.  If you can find a copy of her death certificate online, it probably mentions it, but otherwise you're out of luck.  Denny Doherty in his retrospective show on The Mommas & the Papas said she weighed upward of 300 pounds, but that was just a guess on his part. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 18:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The death cert states she was obese, but does not state her weight. Death certificates in the England and Wales do not usually give any measurements of weight, height etc. Qzm (talk) 03:25, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  How much did she weigh? 

message: "After the breakup of The Mamas & the Papas, Elliot went on to have a successful solo singing career. Her most successful recording during this period was 1968's Dream a Little Dream of Me from her solo album of the same name, released by Dunhill Records though it had originally been recorded for and released on the album The Papas & the Mamas Presented By The Mamas and the Papas earlier that year."
This isn't clear. Was the same recording issued on both albums or did she re-record it? BTLizard (talk) 13:00, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many dreams? 

message: As far a pop culture she was also a "guest star" on a Scooby Doo Movie "Haunted Candy Factory" 1973.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.112.8.123 (talk) 00:20, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding pop culture reference - she was on Scooby Doo 

message: I agree of course that it's interesting that Moon died in the same flat as Elliot, but since it happened 4 years after her death,  I don't believe it belongs in her biography.  This coincidence obviously had no impact on her life or death - there's a good chance that he was aware that she had died in that flat, and if reliable sources say so it may of interest to his biography.  But I don't see its relevance to hers - having a source for a statement does not mean it must be included. We don't say in Linda McCartney's biography, for example, that her widower went on to marry a woman who, coincidentally, had the same name as their daughter Heather.  Interesting coincidence, perhaps, but irrelevant to Linda's biography as it happened years after her death and had nothing to do with her.   Similarly, the fact that Moon was also 32 when he died is completely irrelevant to anything - but I see that wasn't reinstated, so good.  I'd like to hear what others think, but I would like to remove this irrelevant coincidence again as I have in the past. For some reason this article has long been plagued with edits that are not encyclopedic - I've tried, in the 3.5 years I've been editing this article, to keep it on track without rumors and speculation, as is appropriate for an encyclopedia and this mystical coincidence seems to me to be out of place.   Tvoz/talk 04:11, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keith Moon coincidence 

message: I think that it part of the popular culture that surrounds her death. In the same way as the ham sandwich - people could reasonably come to this article in order to verify either of these two otherwise inconsequential points. The McCartney point is a straw-man.122.149.18.160 (talk) 22:55, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply

message: I also object to the inclusion of the purported death certificate or reference to "steatosis" - unless we have some 3rd party reporting about the discrepancy between what is claimed to be the death certificate and what was reported at the time, and unless some reliable source cites steatosis in connection with Elliot specifically, this is verging on original research and not allowable.  The certificate can't be verified and we have not been given any source to support the supposition about cause of death.  Tvoz/talk 07:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: How about this from Snopes? — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 16:17, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cause of death 

message: This is just an anecdote from memory and not really something for the encyclopedia article, but it may be of interest to Mama Cass fans: Michelle Philips mentioned in a radio interview a number of years ago that Cass had idolized Barbra Streisand, but would sometimes get a little depressed about not being able to hit some of the high notes that Streisand could easily manage. (Philips went on to observe that even if Cass didn't have Barbra's vocal range, Barbra couldn't do "warmth" like Cass could.) Anyway, the main point of Michelle Philips's anecdote was that even a singer who makes it look as effortless and easy as Cass Elliot did could still feel insecure about her vocal ability, so in my mind it does sort of tie in with the story that Cass's singing had somehow magically improved after she got hit on the head with a pipe. Throbert McGee (talk) 01:09, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Those "three notes she couldn't reach" before the Pipe Incident 

message: To my knowledge, the lead vocal in Monday, Monday is Denny and not Cass - can anyone support me on this?Tjandspallan (talk) 20:49, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The article doesn't say she was lead vocals for that song. It just said she provided some vocals in it. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 03:48, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monday, Monday 

message: I remember  Denny Doherty said in a TV interview that Cass was terribly lonely, and he mentioned that at a show a guy in the audience called out "Cass - we love you" and Doherty felt Cass almost shouted back "I'm in room ... at the Hilton" and would have thrown her room key to the guy. I think this is a more likely version of the story in the article about the room keys being thrown on stage - also: most people at a concert are in or close to their home towns and are not in hotels.  - Marco Schuffelen— Preceding unsigned comment added by MarcoSchuffelen (talk • contribs) 19:26, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hotel Room Keys 

message: She is mentioned in Snuff Box.
86.16.194.235 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 21:15, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Snuff Box

message: As shown on the album cover, the group was The Big 3, not ..Three.  As far as I know they always used the numeral in their name.76.199.5.100 (talk) 22:26, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  I changed the references in this article to "The Big 3" and moved the article "The Big Three (folk group)" to the "The Big 3 (folk group)".  --08:36, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  3 not Three 

message: I'm not sure why but there's a lot of serif fonts on the page. Even the Edit tabs up the top122.149.18.160 (talk) 22:48, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You may have the Beta "Typography refresh" feature turned on. It does that: mixes serif fonts and sans-serif fonts. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 14:30, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistent typeface  

message: The album cover for The Big 3 must be a re-issue after the Mamas and the Papas (TMATP). It says "featuring Mama Cass Elliot", which she wasn't known as until after the formation of TMATP, which came after her association with The Big 3. Can anyone verify this? There isn't any info on the image page. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 14:32, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Big 3 album cover 

message: In the section Death it is written: "She was treated at a hospital and released, then dismissed the incident in interviews, including one on the American television talk show The Mike Douglas Show, as nothing more than exhaustion." However, Cass clearly states: "I hadn't eaten anything all day and my blood sugar level dropped and I sorta tipped over." On the Johnny Carson show she relates: "I had a very bad headache. I hadn't been able to eat anything all day. Mu blood sugar level dropped and I sorta tipped over." Nothing about exhaustion at all. The article states nothing about Cass's diabetes (which Cass knew she was), and this was the cause of it ... not exhaustion. This should be changed to reflect the correct reason for her collapse. (This is not OR, there are online transcripts, medical reports and interviews to support the claim). Would anyone mind if I corrected this; with inline citations / reliable sources? Maineartists (talk) 00:44, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exhaustion vs Diabetes 

message: Under the death section is the wording:
Reynolds added that some guests at the party used cocaine and other hard drugs on an upper floor, to which Reynolds made sure her children, ages 17 and 16, did not go.[26] Jagger told Reynolds about the situation upstairs, adding that if her children stayed on the ground floor, they would be safe.[26] Because neither Reynolds nor her children saw who partook of the drugs, Elliot's presence at the party may be inconsequential in understanding her death.
The article plainly documents,"pathologist Keith Simpson, who conducted her autopsy, her death was due to "heart failure due to fatty myocardial degeneration due to obesity". A drug screen that was part of the forensic autopsy revealed there were no drugs in her system." The Reynolds speculation is simply non notable trivia.
Also the inclusion of, "despite the fact that Reynolds saw other partygoers, including her son Todd, become intimate with strangers and leave the building with each other.[26]" is also trivia that has nothing to do with Cass Elliot. Ward20 (talk) 05:33, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: You are clearly correct and I removed the offending text. --hulmem (talk) 14:35, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Ward20. Maineartists (talk) 14:41, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia in Death section 

message: What does this have anything to do with Cass Elliot? Television: "A cover version of Make Your own Kind of Music has been recorded by Paloma Faith which is featured in the Skoda advert: Driven By Something Different (2018), for their Karoq model car. Paloma Faith's cover version was released as a single and reached #28 on the UK single chart in May 2018." Maineartists (talk) 09:56, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Removing mention of the above. After researching, I cannot find any mention of "tribute" or "reference" except the connection by reviewers that Elliot once sang the song. Elliot did not write it; and Faith did not sing it in her honor or attribute it to her like all previous mentions in this sections to other musical works of Elliot by other performers. This is merely promotional in content to Faith. "Other popular culture references" does not mean listing every song that Elliot sang that has been recorded by other artists. If that were the case, the article would be inundated by listings of "Dream a Little Dream on Me". It means simply Elliot's reference in popular culture: i.e. "Lost" episode, "Dexter", etc. Unless someone can prove content inclusion by way of WP policy for this listing, or a direct reason by a reliable source by the artist for its tribute (and not a mere mention that Elliot once sang the song); it does not belong. It only opens the door for other, non-essential inclusions of song listings. Maineartists (talk) 13:52, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paloma Faith 

message: The caption on the photograph of the building where she died says she died on the "fourth floor" and "top left". Three different windows on two floors could match that description. It isn't clear because Americans, and much of the world count floors differently. Americans regard the floor literally at ground level as the "first floor." Most of the rest of the world calls that the "ground floor", and counts the floor above that (what Americans call the second floor) as the "first floor." 
If the caption means fourth floor in British and international English, that could be Window A or Window B. (A is almost totally obscured by the angle). If it means fourth floor in American English, that would be Window C. The caption needs greater clarity on whether International English or American English floor counting is being used, and if the former, is it the window around the corner partly obscured by the trees, or the partially obscured window nearest to the photographer. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 02:51, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This article should be US English, but local news reports of her death use GB English.... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 15:32, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unclear caption: which fourth floor - in US English or International English?  

message: *http://www.casselliot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=794
*can somebody verify? ....0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 15:32, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Remains provenence

message: Someone keeps moving the discussion of her use of heroin at her Las Vegas show to a section called "Drug Use."
Isolating her use of drugs at a time when everyone in her circle of musicians and singers seems ridiculous especially since drugs had no official role in her death 
Though marijuana was illegal at the time it was ALSO culturally casual not just around the Laurel Canyon music crowd where she lived but with youth. It was not difficult to find or use, particularly since it could be easily grown. We don't need to be prudish about it. 
Further, this belongs in the Las Vegas section where it originally appeared. Without it, that section reads like she was just sick and had tonsillitis. In fact she was strung out on heroin and couldn't perform.  This explains why she and the show flopped after one day, how rumors of the heroin began to hurt her reputation and why she fell into a deep depression. 
This should be a self-contained story. Stop separating it. 
 Redlemur (talk) 18:32, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drug Use 

message: It’s not that she “reportedly hated the name” Mama. She said she hated it in the interview for which a reference is supplied.  Nicmart (talk) 05:59, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mama