Talk:Great books

message: I think the note about Adler's refusal to admit books by "black, hispanic and women" authors needs to be clarified.  Clarify that there were woman and hispanic authors but not as many as critics would like.  There were African authors but not African-American.  If we're going to cast dispersions on Adler's reputation we should at least be accurate.
I do not think these articles ought to be merged; Great Books as an intellectual movement is something related to but separate from the idea of a core liberal education. There also ought to be added a section on Leo Strauss.
The articles here focus on two very different lists. The Core Curriculum is just that. It's a Core list used by Columbia to provide a foundation. The Great Books list is the entire curriculum. It's the full program used at St. John's College. If it was meant to be one in the same, it would be presented by the schools as such. Maybe a better way to consolidate these programs is to talk about it from an educational experience perspective. "These are different approaches to teaching original western literature to students..." --jtowns 15:55, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  April 2006 

message: Are there equivalent or similar lists for works from the Eastern traditions?  Could/should articles or sites with more globally scoped lists be linked to from this article? Jamal Wills (talk) 21:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eastern World? 

message: I currently go to a Great Books college and am surprised not to find to critique of the "Great Books" as being a bunch of dead white males. I'll try to find some resources and invite anyone else wishing to add that to join the conversation. ~libertyblues
There have been very fundamental criticisms of the whole "Great Books" educational program (by John Dewey, Sidney Hook, and others), and I am surprised that this article does so little in acknowledging these.  My own view is that Great Books panders to the prestige value of certain writers, to the detriment of examining intellectual issues.  It does not make sense, for example, to study books by Karl Marx without devoting adequate time -- say a semester -- to the social and political issues of 19th century Europe.  The Great Books program races through history, with an eye only on fashionable "greats" in those years.  I think (and I think Dewey and Hook thought) that this program is profoundly anti-intellectual. Cognoscente18 (talk) 22:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Critique? 

message: The site www.thegreatbookslist.com is merely a front-end to Amazon and Google Ads, so it was removed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.237.87.99 (talk) 05:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: External links

message: I think this is an excellent list. I like it. The link that was removed I mean. I think maybe you should restore it. But I don't know. It's very difficult to find reasonably concise lists with near unanimity regarding the selection and a balance among many different regions and time periods. But I think this list essentially does this with a very convenient and attractive presentation. 129.15.106.29 (talk) 00:57, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  thegreatbookslist.com 

message: The article lists Furman University as having a great books program. I cannot, however, find any reference to this on their website. If no one can provide any reason to keep it, I will remove it from the article. --Harel Newman (talk) 03:38, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Furman University 

message: I think it's important distinction to make a distinction between true great books programs and partial great books program.
Shimer, St. Johns and Thomas Aquinas are exclusively great books programs, while most of the other schools listed on this page have great books programs or aspects but are not true great books schools.  The experience of going to Shimer or St. Johns is entirely different from reading great books at a school like U of C.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.47.130.147 (talk) 04:46, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exclusive Great books programs 

message: Addition to the bibliography. 
A Great Idea at the Time: the Rise, Fall and Curious Afterlife of the Great Books by Alex Beam (NY: Public Affairs Press, 2008), 245 pages. 
Book reviews 
http://www.wickedlocal.com/manchester/fun/entertainment/books/x1049855903/North-Shore-Book-Notes-A-great-book-about-the-Great-Books
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/11/a-core-curriculums-changing-fate/
rumjal 02:55, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Bibliography

message: You may want to add a link to the Harvard Classics which also seem to sport the title "The Great Books," or perhaps a link to this book review which uses said phrase. 
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/books/review/Nazaryan-t.html
Rumjal
--rumjal 09:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: See Also

message: I think you missed very important works, since you are really accurate only about Anglo-saxon and French literatures.
Firstly you've missed the provencal poetry, which is the base of European poetry.
Then, you've missed the Italian authors which were the most popular of Europe during Renaissance and more: Petrarca, Boccaccio, Ariosto and Tasso.
Moreover, you've missed the Spanish drama of Siglo de Oro, especially Calderòn. And also Goldoni. Both were models for Lessing.
Finally, you've missed Goethe's Werther and Affinities!!! 
Remember: Western culture is not only Anglo-saxon and French. 95.224.205.211 (talk) 17:36, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missed works 

message: I’m not sure where the reference to black, Hispanic and women authors is coming from?  Did you mean the article on The Great Books of the Western World?  Adler did say in a 1990 interview, “They didn’t write any good books” in reference to black authors.  Not Great Books, good books.  Also, the lists from early and later editions of "How to Read a Book" are combined in this article.  Not sure what the different editions looked like.  Chriscr (talk) 23:24, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the Introduction 

message: As it stands, this article is kind of a mess, and has been for a long time.  It switches erratically from discussing the general concept of Great Books (and specific reading lists), to discussing the educational method that developed out of the early-20th-century initiatives at Columbia, Wisconsin and Chicago (inter alia).  IMO there are better places on Wikipedia for discussing both the concept of the Western canon (or literary canons in general), and the minutiae of specific Adlerian or other list(s), and this article should therefore focus more tightly on the educational/curricular aspect.  I am working on a rewrite with this goal in view, which will also clean up some of the WP:EL and WP:WEIGHT issues in the current article. Would welcome any suggestions/thoughts. -- Visviva (talk) 22:57, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed reorganization 

message: Many of the external links go to universities, etc. that sponsor Great Books reading programs.  Instead of the link farm, a section discussing these various programs, with the links used as references, should be developed. --S. Rich (talk) 05:06, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that this is the solution we should be working towards. Tillander 05:09, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

text: We should do this provided there are reliable sources showing that these are notable for this specific article instead of articles about those universities and not just as a way to get around Wikipedia's rules against linkfarming. Certainly it sems doubtful that trivia about each specific university belongs here. In the meantime I removed the offending links. DreamGuy (talk) 03:07, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Concur.  Those had to go. -- Visviva (talk) 04:28, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Offending links indeed! I just now used the Sidney Hook EL as a reference to support his 1946 criticism of the St. John program. Is it so terribly difficult to take these ELs and use them in the text? No! So why do wholesale deletion of the section? By leaving them "as is" editors who'd like to improve the references in the text can access them readily. But if the section is missing, it means going back to an earlier version to find the EL. Not too difficult, but a nuisance. Alright, I'll tag the section as "In use". It'll take a few days, but the ELs will be improved and used in the text. Editors who wish to contribute to this process are welcome to do so. --S. Rich (talk) 14:29, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why not just move them to the talk page?  All of the accessibility with none of the WP:EL violation.  (Personally, I don't think the institutional links qualify as RS with respect to anything but themselves, and the others mostly seem like promotional/SEO spam, but YMMV.)  -- Visviva (talk) 18:36, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  1. The UC banner encourages other editors to contribute to the process - they will miss it on the talk page. 2. The list is more accessible. 3. This process won't take too long.--S. Rich (talk) 18:53, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

text:  It's not really a big deal, I suppose; I just seem to be unusually grumpy today. Carry on.  -- Visviva (talk) 23:29, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

text: NPOV? SOAP? etc.? I wonder. If there was a List of universities and colleges providing Great Books programs would such a stand alone list be objectional? We ought to consider Wikipedia:Make articles useful for readers and WP:RF. Such is the goal of my effort. Thus far 15 of the original 27 ELs are either gone or improved to be used as references in the list section. More work is needed. And I'll continue.  Moreover, the rest of the article needs work.  Any volunteers? --S. Rich (talk) 00:41, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't believe such an article could be maintained unless there's some authoritative sources to draw from. --Ronz (talk) 02:34, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Concur with Ronz and DreamGuy on this. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia.  Not a link farm.--Coolcaesar (talk) 03:52, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not so sure Ronz and DreamGuy are making the same point. Ronz does not like the idea of any links, while DreamGuy wants to avoid trivia. In any event, the EL section, as it now stands, is 5 of the original 27.  (The Dorfman piece might be incorportated as part of the article, which can bring us down to 4 ELs.)  The subsection on the universities does not trivia in it. (Stuff I would call trivia would be number of students, faculty, timeframe of study, department heads, etc.) At this point I posit that the EL linkfarm has been properly pared, and the rest of the article can be worked on.--S. Rich (talk) 07:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: My concern on the links is that they clearly had not been reviewed against WP:EL and editors repeatedly added them back when removed without reviewing them. My suggestion was to remove them all and only add back ones that actually met the relevant policies/guidelines. --Ronz (talk) 16:53, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

text: I rather acknowledge "List of books considered the best" should be a separate page. It's different from any program or what a minority say are classics (don't forget the whole audience – and the other Lists or best/worst). Therefore it's not appropriate for a real list of 'best books (considered)' to be not recognized while redirected to this "Great books" article or assume it's the same thing. Btw, most books are NOT from or contain Western culture. Is anyone getting this? Am I missing something?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6011:9600:52C0:6594:3843:DA62:C33E (talk) 21:40, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shorten EL section 

message: I'd entertain a move to something like "Great Books programs" if we're going with the proper noun form now (instead of "Great books"). It would more accurately cover the topics at hand, which are Great Books programs and not conceptions of a definitive set of great books. czar ♔ 22:56, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename 

message: Hi all. I'm new to editing Wikipedia articles, but on reading this page for Great Books, I can't help but notice that the "Controversy" section seems to contain a non-NPOV, specifically with a level of false balance or "bothsidesism." The section offers what appears to be purely opinion in response to critiques of the Great Books with no references to external parties who make these counter-critiques/responses. Shouldn't the "Controversy" section stand alone without denial or rebuttal of the listed criticisms? On a different note, this section feels under-filled given the large body of academics who have opinions on this matter. Thanks, and let me know if I misunderstand the NPOV/False Balance concepts as they apply to this article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.115.231.12 (talk) 20:40, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Controversy" Section 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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replies: text: I appreciated that this article relayed its message in a very concise manner. It remained neutral while not drifting from topic all that often. Nothing was out of date, as this was an article . It did a well job of showing the progression of literature, these "Great Books," in a chronological manner. It made for a nice conclusion that it eventually approached modern times, in which these books were the topic of television series. It was evident that in some particulars it would be beneficial to add a citation, three specific places had already previously been referenced. The talk page goes to show the precision that the previous editors hoped for in this article, elucidating much of their intentions through discussion. I'm lead to believe this is a credible article. --TheJymy (talk) 22:12, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Tone and balance evaluation: The article centers thinkers and ideas which shaped the origins of the evaluation of Great Books in the Origins section of the article. The article contains a very small section on the controversy of Great Books, which is perhaps under-represented in the overall composition of the article. The Series section of the article includes a block-quote justification from the founder of Great Books of the Western World, Mortimer J. Adler, in which he defends his reasoning for not including more diverse literature and authors into the Great Books canon. His justification is based on the standard of books' relevance to the 102 great ideas, and the great ideas themselves are unexamined and undefined within the article. While the article does not, in tone or syntax, attempt to persuade the reader I find that the article under-represents the controversy of Great Books. By deferring to the defense of Adler, and by not providing a link or explanation of what constitutes Great Ideas, the article does not provide enough information of what underlies dominant distinction of Great Books. As Great Ideas are supposedly the determining basis of what constitutes Great Books, I think defining Great Ideas is important for the context of this article. The absence of this information is a weakness of the article, overall. — Booksbodysoul (talk) 20:22, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There are a lot of missing sources in this article. In the controversy section, it mentions that "many" people were outraged over the lack of diversity, without specifying who was outraged. The same thing happens later in the article with discussing reactions related to Allan Bloom's publication. The section tends to focus on the description of the book, rather than who were voicing these reactions. I would recommend adding relevant sources that voice these certain reactions.
Hlkilbourne (talk) 19:51, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing sources