Talk:Syrian Malabar Nasrani

message: For latest research on Nasrani heritage and Jewish descent. Please refer to research by Dr Mini Kariappa, of Department of Anatomy, Jubilee Mission Medical College, Thrissur. Dr Mini Kariappa  has done DNA analysis of syrian malabar nasranis and found evidence of Jewish descent amongst the Nasranis. She presented her reserach on september 5th 2011 Please read current research before being believing in ancient legends of Brahmin conversion. It is time to give up on casteism. 
There was a link of her interview in the malayalam language that was published in a malayalam language newspaper in Kerala. Here is the link http://www.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/MMOnline.dll/portal/ep/malayalamContentView.do?contentId=10033956&programId=1073753770&channelId=-1073751706&BV_ID=@@@&tabId=11Robin klein (talk) 21:27, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: DNA evidence of jewish descent of Nasranis

message: I have to say that User:Ashleypt is not accurate when he says that there is only one editor with whom he is involved in a dispute. There are other users as well who have reverted his POV edits. Please see the history of the article [] Other editors involved include User:SpacemanSpiff and a user without an account 117.201.250.33
Ashleypt has been deleting references and adding his own ideas and now incorrectly stating that there is only one editor with whom he is involved in a dispute. He has further stated there is no proof yet about Nasrani descent. However I should state that the latest in research concerning Kerala Malabar Nasrani heritage proves Jewish origin as long hypothesized. 
For latest research on Nasrani heritage and Jewish descent. Please refer to research by Dr Mini Kariappa, of Department of Anatomy, Jubilee Mission Medical College, Thrissur. Dr Mini Kariappa  has done DNA analysis of syrian malabar nasranis and found evidence of Jewish descent amongst the Nasranis. She presented her reserach on september 5th 2011. There was a link of her interview in the malayalam language that was published in a malayalam language newspaper in Kerala. Here is the link http://www.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/MMOnline.dll/portal/ep/malayalamContentView.do?contentId=10033956&programId=1073753770&channelId=-1073751706&BV_ID=@@@&tabId=11
Ashleypt is trying to promote a casteist idea of nationalist supremacy that aspires to assume a 'supposed' superiority of the supposed elite 'Brahmin' hierarchical casteist society by trying to state that the Nasranis are brahmins. I should remind you that the Malabar Nasranis were persecuted in the Portuguese analogue of the Spanish inquisition known as the  Portuguese Inquisition with the Portuguese burning hundreds of Syriac documents. Kindly see to it that Wikipedia does not become a platform where people propagate age old casteist ideas. Ashleypt does not give any support for stating the legends of brahmin descent saying that these are long held ideas. Denying and even brushing aside the latest DNA results. The latest DNA result shows the admixture of Jewish diaspora and local keralite society within the Malabar Nasranis. Which has always been stated in the article. In fact he distorts the admixture with local people as admixture with Brahmin, which is incorrect and at the root of the problem. Again to repeat. The article has always maintained that the Syrian Malabar Nasranis are an admixture of local South Indian Malabar people and the Jewish people just as latest DNA results support. However Ashleypt is in the attempt to remove the mention of local admixture and make it seem as brahmin. Ashleypt is not concerned or interested about the admixture of Jewish diaspora with the local keralite society within the Malabar Nasranis. Instead his real interest is the supposed 'Brahmin superiority'. Ashleypt  is introducing pov to the page Syrian Malabar Nasrani and started an edit war. Several editors have reverted his edits yet he insists on adding those pov. He does not sign his talk and edits pages without logging into his account. thanks Robin klein (talk) 13:36, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dear Mr.Robi Klein, can you show any usage "converted brahmins" or something like that, in the main article as modified by me? More over it's our tradition, and even if I mention anything like that, I think, there is nothing wrong in it until it's proved wrong. Dr. Mini Kariappa's research confirms our traditional beliefs as she found genetic resemblance of Syrian Christians with many prominent brahmin sects in India.
--Ashleypt (talk) 11:42, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

text: Let me also take part in the discussion.
# First, There was no caste system at the time when St.Thomas was here for conversion.There was Indo-Aryans (Who possess R1a genetics) and dravidians (who possess L type genetics)
# Maggi Kariappa's study proves that Majority of Syrian christians(with the exception of Thekkumbhagar,a.k.a knanayas who possess L type genes) possess R1a genes, which is also shared among chit-pavan brahmins,ayyars and ayyangars (There is no cast-ism here)
# The science says the truth(here genetics). R1a is the genes possessed by many others too. Like most of the sikhs, Some tribes of Tibet, Some peoples in Russia. All recent studies proves this theory and narrates it as Aryan Invasion of India.
# The study was conducted by using y-DNA tests which narrates only the Fathers side. But m-DNA tests says about the mother's hereditery. 
111.93.111.243 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 07:30, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: POV edits by [[User:Ashleypt|Ashleypt]] on the page Syrian Malabar Nasrani

message: There is no mention of Cochin in any records before 1341 AD. Most probably Cochin was formed only after the floods in 1341 AD. So there is no chance for Cochin Jews become Nazrani. Paradesi Jews came to Cochin much later. In the first century, there was a Jewish Community in and around Muziris and they had their own Synagogues. Like other disciples, St. Thomas also preached in these synagogues. So the names, Cochin Jews and Paradesi Jews are deleted. I doubt very much that the Cochin Jews and Paradesi Jews ever joined the Nazrani or Christian groups.   To make this clear only the name Jews is added. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 04:24, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Mathew, I appreciate your views. It's quite illogical to assume that the earliest Jews in Kerala were Cochin Jews. Both are different communities. So let's just mention them as Jews.
Also I have removed some casteist statements from the portion under Caste Status. I believe those statements if included could deteriorate the beauty of the article. --Ashleypt (talk) 09:06, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of concerns like this, the problem with this article and St. Thomas Christians is that they both cover the same group, but they try to draw artificial distinctions between the "Nasrani" and the "St. Thomas Christians". They're synonyms, but the articles have become so confusing that no one has taken the initiative to clean them up. Until they are merged and completely rewritten, the articles will remain in the same poor state.--Cúchullain t/c 13:06, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

text: Dear Cúchullain, the idea of two articles is to have a page dealing with the community as a single ethnic group Syrian Malabar Nasrani and another to deal with their myriad religious variations within the broader frame of Saint Thomas Christians. This is done for a lot of different people who have a single ethnic identity but variation in religious and historical practices. E.g. Parsi dealing with the Parsi people as a single identity and Zoroastrianism dealing with the long diverse history of the people with diversity across Iran, Asia Minor and India. This happens also with pages like German Culture and Germany, and Jews dealing with the Jewish people as a single ethnic group and Judaism dealing with the diverse and long and complex history of the Jewish religious practices across the Jewish Diaspora. The same thing is the case with Syrian Malabar Nasrani and Saint Thomas Christians. thanks Robin klein (talk) 14:46, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I am aware of the stated reasons for having two pages, but they don't hold water. Everywhere besides Wikipedia, wherever "Nasrani" applies to India, it is a synonym for St. Thomas Christian. Our articles are totally redundant. Even worse, the term "Syrian Malabar Nasrani" is an uncommon construct that appears virtually nowhere outside of Wikipedia.--Cúchullain t/c 15:52, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Additionally, the term is not an ethnic one; "Nasrani" (or "Nazrani") simply means "Christian". "Malabar" just refers to the region. And "Syrian" is just thrown in there to emphasize the connection to the Church of the East – ie, the St. Thomas Christians.--Cúchullain t/c 16:03, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

text:  It's better to move the article to Saint Thomas Christians. I came to observe the article Syrian Malabar Nasrani while searching Nasrani in Wikipedia and later on I was surprised to see another article Saint Thomas Christians with some contradictory contents on comparing both. In India, both the terms Saint Thomas Christians and Nasranis are synonymous and as Cúchullain stated the term Syrian Malabar Nasrani is an artificially formed name. But I would like to clarify that in India, the term Nasrani is exclusively used for Syrian Christians of Kerala only, not for all Christians and it should be considered as an ethno-religious group. The confusion could be avoided using Disambiguation page. If it is moved as suggested, we could concentrate in improving a single article on Nasranis, including the ethnic aspects as suggested by Mr. Robin. --Ashleypt (talk) 09:56, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  NO, Moving this is an impractical idea. The contents are too huge and is not all the same in both the articles. In any case it is not possible to put all information on the same page. If at all one of the pages could be forked as an sub article of the other. Which is already the case. Besides the term Nasrani is the ethnic term for all Saint Thomas Christians. Even Geroge Menachery has a volume called as Nasranis and another set of volume titles Saint Thomas Christian Encyclopedia. The two terms are distinct though with lots of overlapping themes. thanks Robin klein (talk) 10:08, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

text: I think it's not proper to differentiate the term "Nasranis" as the ethnic name and Saint Thomas Christians (Marthomma Christianikal) or Syrian Christians (Suriani Christianikal) as corresponding religious group. All these terms are interchangeable in any context as far as Kerala's religious and ethnic landscape is considered. --Ashleypt (talk) 10:41, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, I am not making the differentiation. Wikipedia is not a place for original research where I or anyone else can try and make any differentiation. I am refering to the works of George Menachery. He has published a volume called Nasranis and also has set of volumes called Saint Thomas Christian Encyclopedia. They both are distinct though as I said have overlapping themes. thanks Robin klein (talk) 10:56, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In terms of India, "Nasranis" and "St. Thomas Christians" are synonymous. "Nasranis" isn't an "ethnic" term any more than St. Thomas Christians is. And "Syrian Malabar Nasranis" is a made-up term that barely exists outside of Wikipedia.--Cúchullain t/c 12:33, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

text: A few minutes before, I contacted Prof. George Menachery over Phone( His Num:+919846033713) and asked his opinion on this subject. He was so kind to intimate me that both the terms Nasranis and Saint Thomas Christians are same in meaning and could be used interchangeably. For clarification you could contact him over EMail: kunjethy@yahoo.com. --Ashleypt (talk) 12:24, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The real solution is a merge, rather than a move. It will be a huge undertaking, but it needs to happen.--Cúchullain t/c 12:33, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

text: How we could initiate it? Any procedures? --Ashleypt (talk) 13:17, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cochin Jews 

message: I have started a merge discussion at Talk:Saint Thomas Christians#Merger proposal.--Cúchullain t/c 14:09, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: All though I would say that a much better and appropriate thing to do would be to move Syrian Malabar Nasrani to Nasrani Mappila or Malabar Nasrani as a more distinct ethnic term than a term involving religious variations like saint Thomas Christians. thanks Robin klein (talk) 14:43, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There wouldn't be a problem. If the page were merged, "Syrian Malabar Nasrani" would remain as a redirect to St. Thomas Christians, as would all the other redirects that currently point here.--Cúchullain t/c 15:04, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

text:  Again on second thoughts would it not be better and appropriate to merge both Saint Thomas Christians and Syrian Malabar Nasrani to a page like Nasrani Mapilla or Malabar Nasrani or just Nasrani as Nasrani is the traditional appellation for the said people. thanks Robin klein (talk) 15:10, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's keep the discussion in merger discussion section. I've replied over there.--Cúchullain t/c 15:18, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

text: (Just a note that have added own Support on correct, target page. User above may wish to copy across) In ictu oculi (talk) 07:30, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge notice 

message: What ever the outcome of the current merge discussion, will someone who has had a fair involvement with contributions to this article please read WP:CITEKILL. I realise that is an essay rather than policy but, honestly, the number of citations being given in this article for simple, often single sentence, statements is ludicrous. I cannot think of an instance here where more than two citations would be required, - Sitush (talk) 13:19, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overkill