Talk:Essex (whaleship)

message: I moved this to "Whaleship Essex" because I believe that is the most common way to which it is referred. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dpbsmith (talk • contribs) 
What? Why the hell would you capitalize whaleship? That just looks stupid. It should either say Essex (whaleship) or Essex (whaler).Jonas Poole (talk) 02:47, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Article name

message: Crew List and other data from I'm adding (and will add) is from 
In the Heart of the Sea: The Tragedy of the Whaleship Essex by Nathaniel Philbrick; the actual book, not the article... --Moby 10:22, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Crew list

message: Opera about "Whaleship Essex" - The Pariahs by Leonard Kastle
This is a reminder to myself to include a description of this American opera and a link to a reference on it.  It was first performed as excerpts from the full Opera in Albany NY 1986.  I sang in the chorus.  I didn't edit the article because I need a proper reference besides my own experiences which would be original research.  The Opera takes place on Nantucket after the return of the survivors and features themes of forgiveness and redemption through faith which are common to Kastle's American Cycle of Operas.  
Anyone think this addition would be inappropriate, please say so. Lisapollison 20:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting, I had never heard of this. Here's a google link to get you started: . I'll try and find some time to read some of the results in the next few days. --Moby 08:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I cannot think of any argument against a 'References in popular culture' section. They are common enough throughout WP. Should one be started, it might also contain a mention of the fact that the Owen Coffin of the Essex is the one to whom the whaling song Nantucket Sleighride is dedicated (on the Mountain album of the same name). Grubstreet (talk) 20:35, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Pariahs 

message: I don't think that the active link to Joseph West in the side bar is the same Joseph West intended (a senator from Louisiana instead of the crewman).  I'd edit it myself, but I'm not sure how.
January 29 2007.
:The link from the cannibalised cabin boy to Owen Coffin, governor of Connecticut is equally misguided. I'll remove it. Grubstreet (talk) 20:17, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: On reflection, I've gone one better and created a short article on Owen Coffin to replace the redirect to the politician. That way, at least people searching for the Owen Coffin in the song dedication (see above) now have a route to the information they are looking for. Grubstreet (talk) 03:34, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Erroneous links 

message: I have changed the phrase "displaced 238 tons" to "measured 238 tons".  While Nathaniel Philbrick's book indicates that 238 tons was the displacement or mass of the vessel, that assumption appears to be based on a primary source, the ship's 1799 register, which among other specifications states that "she measures two hundred thirty eight tons".  That 1799 register is quoted verbatim (using the word "measures") in Heart of the Sea, p. 241, citing in turn Thos. Heffernan's Stove by a Whale (1981) at p. 10.  As the primary source uses the word "measures" it is appropriate to use that term, not "displacement", which is likely incorrect. 
There is a significant difference between the two metrics.  See Tonnage.  As the original source (the 1799 register) uses the term "measures" I have changed the article to conform.  In all likelihood the actual measure was tons burthen, which was commonly used at the time, but we need a source.  Kablammo (talk) 23:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I was wondering which "Ton" was referred to here, from recent research it looks like the long ton of 2240 pounds, confirmed by the "burthen ton" mentioned above. I would like to include the Metric Ton or Tonne equivalent in the article.Metricmike (talk) 20:01, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Tons burthen have nothing to do with weight.  Look at the article for Builder's Old Measurement, which also redirects from Burthen. Also take a look at Tonnage.   At the time involved here, ships, even warships, were not measured by displacement, and neither Tonnage nor Burthen can be measured by weight. Kablammo
See below at Tonnage redux for more on this subject.  Kablammo (talk) 21:27, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tonnage 

message: Shouldn't this be moved to Whaleship Essex tragedy? And what about the history of the whaleship? - PGSONIC 19:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it should. Sadly, someone merged the book In the Heart of the Sea, the article about the tragedy, and the article about the ship itself all into one giant article. This is now how Wikipedia works. Books get their own articles. Ships get their own articles. Specific historical events get their own articles. This is done for a number of reasons, not the least being proper categorization. Fothergill Volkensniff IV (talk) 23:20, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving 

message: As I found it, this article, whose title suggests it's about the entire career of the ship, is really just about the sinking and aftermath; indeed, far more of the article concerns events after the ship was sunk than otherwise, making it odd that the name of the article would be that of the ship.  It could be re-named, say, "The Essex incident", or the article could be expanded to include more than a couple of sentences about the ship before the day it sank.  I'm inclined to the latter, so I broke the article into sections and wrote an introduction to this effect.  Has anyone information about the previous career of the ship or even of its voyage before the incident?
--Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 20:19, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Philbrick's book has several pages describing the vessel, but only one paragraph on her prior career; the facts there are only that she quite small, was a "lucky" and "happy" vessel, and was successful and made her owners wealthy.  Kablammo (talk) 23:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other information 

message: Someone changed the "she" to "it", but I undid the edit.  Was I wrong to do so?  Chrisrus (talk) 00:13, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  She's a ship. 

message: Thanks to the FDA, NaCl is now commonly referred to as "sodium," which it definitely is not (sodium is poisonous.)  However, in this article, since it mentions "excessive sodium" it may refer to the actual element Na, or excessive NaCl, which makes sense considering that they're at sea.  I was going to correct it to "sodium chloride" but I'm not sure if that would be correct.98.217.33.12 (talk) 16:29, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right; I say go ahead and make the change you propose.  I also suggest you consider whether saying "salt" instead might be even better for the reader.  Chrisrus (talk) 16:58, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Or even "Health effects" at Salt? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:41, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  excessive sodium, or sodium chloride? 

message: : By the time the last of the eight survivors were rescued on April 5, 1821, they had consumed the corpses of seven fellow sailors.
This sentence is rather puzzling.  Out of context, I'd take it to mean that eight men survived the sinking but only one was rescued, having eaten the other seven, so I'd change 'were' to 'was'.  So that's a sign that the sentence ought to be restructured.
If I understand the article right, five living men were found in boats, and told their rescuers about the three on Henderson, who apparently survived without eating anyone.  So is April 5 when the second boatload was rescued, or when someone went to Henderson?  Either way, "they" is misleading. —Tamfang (talk) 04:54, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  numbers and wording 

message: The article states 'It is believed the fire contributed to the extinction of the Floreana Tortoise and the Floreana Mockingbird.', however, the latter at least is listed as still surviving as of 2013!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.110.120.98 (talk) 16:58, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extinctions of species following the fire 

message: The statements that clinker built boats are less durable but faster than carvel built boats 
are puzzling, at least on the face of it. In fact, for small boats like those of whalers,
clinker or lapstrake built boats are generally considered to be more durable than carvel
built boats and also more seaworthy. 169.232.151.226 (talk) 21:12, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clinker built boats 

message: For background, see above at Talk:Essex_(whaleship)#Tonnage
With the online availability of the relevant pages of Thos. Heffernan's book Stove by a Whale (now cited in the Sources section of the article), it should be clear to all that the 238-ton measure of size is in fact American tons burthen.  This measure has nothing to do with displacement.  We know that the ship was registered at 238 72/95 tons, and as shown in the section linked just above, that was the U.S. measure of tons burthen, as the denominator in the fraction is 95. 
The significance of this is that Nathaniel Philbrick is wrong.  He assumes that the 238-ton ship is about three times the mass of the 80-ton whale.  (In the Heart of the Sea, pp. 2, 86–91, 256.)  The problem is that the mass (weight) of Essex is not what he thinks-- he takes the ship's tonnage as being weight, when in fact it is anything but.  Kablammo (talk) 14:21, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tonnage redux 

message: As noted by prior editors above, this article is primarily about the last voyage of the Essex, and not the ship herself.  The article needs to be renamed to reflect its true content. PGSONIC previously suggested Whaleship Essex tragedy, but I think that has too much POV per wp:POVTITLE. Kablammo, Dino, Miesianiacal, before I rename it, what do you think it ought to be renamed? (I like the first one)
* Sinking of the whaler Essex 
* Essex sinking
* Last voyage of the Essex
* Sinking of the Essex
Other suggestions? — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done) 20:08, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Mjroots, Llammakey, Thewolfchild, Kablammo, Dino, Miesianiacal, thanks for your replies above. Based on the suggestion offered by Mjroots above, I suggest renaming the article "Essex (whaler)". "whaleship" gets 51,000 results on Google, while "whaler" get 71,100 results. "Whaleship" appears to be a more antiquated use, and may have been borrowed from the recent book, "The Tragedy of the Whaleship Essex".  In other words, the latter usage appears to be 150% more commonly used. — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done) 23:42, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: How about just leaving it as it is? The current title has been in place for 12 years, since the article was created. Obviously the wording isn't problematic and I don't see a compelling need to change it. Basically, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. -  theWOLFchild 00:14, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no pressing need for a move either. Mjroots (talk) 22:00, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article renaming 

message: :  Mjroots, Llammakey, Thewolfchild, Kablammo, Dino, Miesianiacal, thanks for your replies above. Based on the suggestion offered by Mjroots above, I suggest renaming the article "Essex (whaler)". "whaleship" gets 51,000 results on Google, while "whaler" get 71,100 results. "Whaleship" appears to be a more antiquated use, and may have been borrowed from the recent book, "The Tragedy of the Whaleship Essex".  In other words, the latter usage appears to be 150% more commonly used. — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done) 23:42, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: How about just leaving it as it is? The current title has been in place for 12 years, since the article was created. Obviously the wording isn't problematic and I don't see a compelling need to change it. Basically, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. -  theWOLFchild 00:14, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no pressing need for a move either. Mjroots (talk) 22:00, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative suggestion 

message: According to the source: . To me this begs the question, "Where were they ?" to sail North to Tahiti you would have to be in Antarctica but, if you were coming around Cape Horn (as the article states) Tahiti would be West.    Mlpearc (open channel) 15:46, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Head ''North'' or ''West'' 

message: As I said on my talk page here, there's no need to add "1799" to the title. There aren't any articles on other whaleships named "Essex" to disambiguate from, so it's overly precise. Essex (whaleship) is still a redirect, meaning anyone who clicks on or types in that wording comes here anyway, rendering the overlong current name moot.--Cúchullain t/c 14:56, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: - just because there are no articles on the other three (at least) whalers named Essex, doesn't mean that the dab isn't valid. Mjroots2 (talk) 12:33, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it does; per WP:PRECISE, "Usually, titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that." If there are no other articles on whaleships to distinguish this one from, the year is unnecessary.--Cúchullain t/c 13:17, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: The Essex was hardly the only whaleship to be rammed by a sperm whale. Others include the the Union in 1807, Pusie Hall in 1835, the Lydia and the Two Generals in 1836, the Pocahontas in 1850, the Ann Alexander in 1851, and the Kathleen in 1902 (all except the Pusie Hall and the Pocahontas sank). . MR2David (talk) 21:10, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. Those other incidents shed no light on this one. And they can be accessed through the category "Whale collisions with ships".  Kablammo (talk) 17:12, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other ships attacked by whales 

message: Singer/Songwriter Justin Sullivan has written a Song about this incident (this one) - Would this be good for 'in popular culture? It's pretty good imho, but its not yet included in any official release...)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.199.165 (talk) 10:17, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think we should include it, unless and until the song gets broader notice.  The youtube recording is terrible, but would not pass muster as a source even if it were good.  Kablammo (talk) 21:51, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Song about the Essex

message: What island(s)? Nantucket is listed separately as an origin of crew members, so it's evidently not meant to mean Nantucket island. Are these four from the South Sea islands? An editor who has the source(s) should clarify MayerG (talk) 11:38, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The statement is incorrect. According to Philbrick, Cole was "a young white off-islander" (p. 149); Weeks and Wright were from Cape Cod (p. 145), and West was also an "off-islander" (p. 149). Kablammo (talk) 14:00, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "four island natives" 

message: The redirect Essex (whaleship has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached.  Utopes (talk / cont) 18:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "[[:Essex (whaleship]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]