Talk:Luwian language

message: I have made certain changes to material added by user 192.76.7.207, which stated the opinions of one scholar (Ilya Yakubovich) as if they were accepted fact. Yakubovich 2010 is an important contribution to the field of Luwian and Hittite studies, and the views expressed in it certainly deserve mention in a Wikipedia article on Luwian language. However, as many of his claims directly contradict current scholarly opinion regarding the presence of Luwian speakers in western Anatolia, as well as the location of the land Luwiya (see e.g. Starke 1997; Hawkins 1998; Melchert 2003; Singer 2005; Hawkins 2009), they have no place being presented as reflecting a general consensus in contemporary scholarship (for example, Yakubovich 2010 has not even been properly reviewed in any academic journals yet). Should a consensus emerge in the scholarly community regarding Yakubovich’s views, that should certainly be reflected in the main body of the article, but until then the material in Yakubovich 2010 should be clearly presented as representing a minority opinion. If user 192.76.7.207 would care to create an account, rather than edit from an IP address, it might make clarifying these issues easier.User:Karabel--Karabel 08:10, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Revision

message: why does the article say that Luvian was spoken in Arzawa, which was in the far west, when the map shows the Luvian area as in the east?Bbpowell 22:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: Where is the evidence that Hittite and Luwian "moved" south to the Middle East and influenced Semitic tongues?
Is this some sort of a confusion with Phillistines(Greeks) ?
* No evidence at all, it is clear that the author does not have a clue what (s)he is talking about. There were Neo-Hittite kingdoms in northern Syria during the first millennium BC using the Luwian language in inscriptions, but the presence of Luwians among the Sea people/Philistines are pure guesswork. Any linguistic influence on the Semitic tongues from Luwian is strictly confined to loan-words.--JFK 15:02, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was George E. Mendenhall from the University of Michigan. He ascribed originally Luwian names to Midianite figures reported in the Old Testament, some of whom (Moses' father-in-law Jethro for example) were associated with the Hejaz. --Fire Star 04:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Influence on Semitic?

message: This is the highly disputed part of the article cut and pasted. Before a reference can be presented who these academic specialists are this hypothesis does not belong in the main article. It is certainly not the scholar Melchert in Anatolian languages nor his colleagues Meid, Neu Otten or Puhvel. The text:
Luwian (and Hittite) groups are now believed by most academic specialists to have moved south into Amurru, Aram Naharaim, Canaan and the Hejaz (modern Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Jordan and northern Saudi Arabia) after ca. the 14th century BC, and to have had an influence on the various West Semitic languages that its speakers came into contact with (Amorite dialects and especially Hebrew). --JFK 23:30, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was George E. Mendenhall from the University of Michigan. He ascribed originally Luwian names to Midianite figures reported in the Old Testament, some of whom (Moses' father-in-law Jethro for example) were associated with the Hejaz. --Fire Star 04:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cut from the article

message: Boustrephedon writing does not apply to Cuneiform Luwian, and so the discussion on it shouldn't go on in this article. I've moved that discussion (and the paragraph which sparked it) over to Hieroglyphic Luwian. Enjoy! - Zimriel 21:31, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cuneiform Luwian and Hieroglyphic Luwian are language varieties which should be discussed at Luwian language; directionality and other features of the writing system should be discussed at Anatolian hieroglyph. Evertype 15:38, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Boustrephedon, etc

message: Propose splitting Luwian land and people from the language article. Categorystuff (talk) 16:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Who are you calling "Luwians"? Do you have such a great deal of material on "Luwians" that it would unbalance the present article? Why don't you simply begin by editing it in a section here and see how much you've got.--Wetman (talk) 07:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

text: In a way, what is the difference how much material is found on the Luvians? The two topics are logically distinct. Language articles are about the range, speakers, phonology etc of the language. The EB always splits the two. If we read about the English we aren't interested in the phonology of English and if we want to know something about English phonology we really don't care at all who is speaking it. It might be spoken in inner Mongolia (and probably is). So even if there is a small amount of material Luvians can well be a separate article. Redirecting Luvians to here blocks us from working on it. On the other hard no such article exists and is not going to exist unless someone does the work. At this point "splitting" means unredirecting "Luvians" and letting it be a red link. I'm in favor of that because it encourages someone to do the article. If I were writing an article on Luvians I would just unredirect the word and think nothing of it. There is nothing to split so far. Tempest in a teapot. If anyone is looking for encouragement, I say, go ahead, "split" it. First you write the article in Word - check it - make sure it has all the criteria for an article - then create a new article on Wikipedia and lastly take out the redirect. Make sure there are links in Luvians to Luvian and vice versa. By the way who ARE we calling Luvians is a moot point. There are quite a few Luvian theories.Dave (talk) 04:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Support split, Dave covered the reasons why. Imagine having Ancient Greece information within the Ancient Greek language article. Fuzzibloke (talk) 14:18, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Like Dave says: No split to support, just unredirect "Luvians", write the article, make sure to link both ways between here and there, and make redirects covering spelling variations (v ~ w) etc. Keinstein (talk) 23:06, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

text: I support the split and/or unredirecting.  A good resource for developing an article on the Luwian people would be H. Craig Melchert's 2003 book, The Luwians (Handbook of Oriental Studies) from Brill Academic Publishers, 2003. One site provides this synopsis: "A brief introduction sets the context and confronts the problem of defining "the Luwians". Following chapters describe their prehistory, history, writing and language, religion, and material culture."  Another source to consider would be The Luwian population groups of Lycia and Cilicia Aspera during the Hellenistic period. by Houwink ten Cate, Ph. H. J. (Philo Hendrik Jan), published: Leiden, E.J. Brill. 1961.  Either way, having a redirect of "Luwians" go to an article on linguistics of the language doesn't work. TeamZissou (talk) 00:36, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Support split, per → WP:SS. Krenakarore (talk) 11:39, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split "Luwians" 

message: Consideration should also be given to relevance and appropriate placement (inclusion/exclusion) of material in the article Syro-Hittite states, which deals with the Neo-Hittite period (post-1180 RCE and which links to the current article  This may help to resolve some of the somewhat contentious points raised in the discussion above.  Geoff Powers (talk) 17:35, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Article: Syro-Hittite states

message: I wrote this mostly from the books of Bilge Umar...
At the beginning Apollo(Apollon), Artemis, Aphrodite, Hephaistos, etc. were NOT Greek gods and goddesses... 
because we know Ancient Greek language and the name of these gods are not Greek names! For example, the name "Artemis" does not mean anything in Greek language! They were Anatolian gods/goddesses that became Greek gods after 1200 BC. And Western Anatolia were Luwian lands before 1200 BC. Today we know that. (but in 1800s no one knew anything about the Luwians!)
now Some can say: "Well, but the Ancient Greeks didn't write anything about the Luwians. So how can we know that they were Luwian gods?"  I say: Ancient Greeks (and the Romans) also didn't write anything about the Hittites! The Greeks didn't write anything about the Luwians because the Luwians were their enemies! After Anatolian people began to speak Greek, they forgot their own Luwian language! Their old gods(like Apollon, etc.)became Greek gods!
1)Artemis: Arta/Arda /Arte = "river" (in Luwian Language) , mis ="goddess"
see Arda (Maritsa) & Arda (Italy)
2)Apollon: Ap /Ab /Aba /Apa / Pa ="water" , ula ="small wood" , wana = "place", "temple of"(in Luwian)
3)Aphrodite: Ap /Ab /Aba /Apa ="water",  Abra = "river" , uwa ="place", "temple", "having to do with it", Dite = "Goddess" (in Luwian)
4)Ada /Da = "mother", "mother goddess" (in Luwian)
Demeter: <Da-meter ("meter" also means "mother" in Greek) 
Athena: <Athana (in Doric) < Adana <Ada-na   -na ="place", "temple of" (in Luwian)
Danae: <Da-na (similar name like Athena!) Danae was not a goddess. She was the mother of Perseus.
5)Themis: Themis means "law of nature" in Greek but it can be like that: 
<The(a)-mis  Thea ="goddes" (in Greek) , mis ="goddess" (in Luwian)
6)Leto: <Lada-uwa (She was the mother of Artemis and Apollon) /Lada ="woman","goddess" ,uwa ="place", "temple of" (in Luwian)
7) Asta /Astra /Ista /Istra = "stream", "river" (in Luwian)
Danube = Istros (in Greek) 
Hestia: <Asta! 
Hephaestus(in Latin) < Hephaistos : <Apa-ista,  Apa ="water" (in Luwian)
8)Maia: Maia was the mother of Hermes. < Ma-ia  /Ma = "mother", ia ="earth" (in Luwian)
HEROES:
Paris (mythology)(Alexandros): < "Par-Ida"  /Par = "pastor", "shepherd" , Ida = Mount Ida = "forest"
Paris Πάρῐς (nominative) , Paridos Πάρῐδος (genitive), Paridi Πάρῐδῐ (dative),  Parida Πάρῐδᾰ (accusative)
Hector = Hektor: means "brother-in-law" (of Helen) 
Hecuba = Hekabe: means "mother-in-law" (of Helen) , abe ="mother?" 
Helen = Helene /Helena: "Strait" (this is "Dardanelles") <Ela-na  Ela/Ila ="strait" ,-na = "having to do with" 
Ela-na = "the woman of the strait" 
Ilium = Ilion (=Troy) <Il(a)-ion  -ion = "place" (in Greek) 
also Hellespont < Hellespontos  that means: "Sea of Helle (mythology)" In fact, the name of this Helle came from "Ela" = "strait" 
Helenos = Helenus: "Strait" (the male form of the same name!) <Ela-na 
Priamus = Priamos: < Pria-uma = "the man in the castle" /Pria ="castle" uma ="human" ~ homo (in Latin/ the same root) 
Cassandra = Kassandra: <Kas-Andra /kas = "temple" , andra = "priestess", "woman", "nun" 
Pegasus = Pegasos : < Pega -Asu /Pege (in Greek) ="fount","source" < Pega ="fount" (in Luwian) <Pa-ka , pa ="water", ka ="place", asu = "horse" (in Luwian)
Leda (mythology): <Lada ="woman" (similar name like Leto <Lada-uwa! See above)  Böri (talk) 13:22, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Luwian Gods and Goddesses 

message: Zeus, Poseidon, Hermes, Hades, Ares, Ouranos, Hera Böri (talk) 13:27, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-Luwian Gods and Goddesses 

message: "Their language, Lycian, was an Indo-European language, one in the Luwian subgroup of Anatolian languages." (from Lycian language ) / I want to show this: hebeli- (a river) [IE *Hap- 'a river, water', Hittite ap- 'water'] 
(from: http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/glossary/lyci.html) /The Luwians were the ancestors the Lycian people. Böri (talk) 12:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What exactly do you propose? Adding a section on daughter languages of Luwian to the article? That might be a good idea, though Lycian is already mentioned. Adding the etymology of specific Lycian words? I don't see how that improves the article. (As an aside, Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source.) Huon (talk) 17:27, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lycian language 

message: This is fast-moving field and there have been some changes. The article was not too good to begin with so I am doing some rewrites. I will address the reference problem. It is such an unnecessarily huge list it will take a while to work through it. But, even if many are not going to be used, it still can serve as a bibliography.Dave (talk) 12:57, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Updates

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I suggest you use :Template:Interlinear to format the interlinear gloss -- that will make it a lot clearer. I'm afraid that I don't know where to put the word breaks. Also, what does the vertical bar (|) mean in the gloss? --Macrakis (talk) 18:31, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Interlinear text

message: It looks like Template:Script/Anatolian Hieroglyphs is broken, leading to formatting issues in the Syntax section of the article. I suggest to remove the broken text. Alternatively, one could use  to instead add the text as an image. Renerpho (talk) 22:04, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I am using a Windows desktop PC, with the classic (Vector legacy 2010) Wikipedia skin. The issue appears to be browser-independent (I tried several). Renerpho (talk) 22:10, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

text: So this is what I'm seeing:The text looks fine to me, but I'm not well-versed in the subject. Is it supposed to look differently? KLITE789 (talk) 09:41, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's what it looks like to me:This is on Firefox. On Google Chrome and Microsoft Edge, it looks similar, but the white boxes are blank (no text inside). What system and browser are you using? Renerpho (talk) 19:34, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formatting issues 

message: https://www.winter-verlag.de/de/assets/download/in04501cee412818269abddcb57e0efcbdd/9783825379537/9783825379537.pdf
https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/42051/chapter/355821079
100.15.117.34 (talk) 15:29, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  additional sources 

message: Given that Cuneiform Luwian and Hieroglyphic Luwian were merely variants of the same language as convincingly argued in Mouton & Yakubovich (2021) Where did one speak luwili? Geographic and linguistic diversity of Luwian cuneiform texts, following Yakubovich (2010) Sociolinguistics of the Luvian Language, I propose that the page Hieroglyphic Luwian should be merged into the page Luwian language. Antiquistik (talk) 21:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal