Talk:Indian martial arts/Archive 6

message: Do you even know that Mallayuddha can mean fighter war, art of many moves, combat wrestling and even intelligent fighting depending on the variation ???
Let me guess: you're going to start translating Bharatiya kushti as "Indian death-duel" next?
let's have a challenge (if you accept), I'll bring in my websites and you bring yours, the one with more mentions wins, lemme know.
Hell, I could find a million websites backing the claim that Walt Disney is frozen in a block of ice awaiting reanimation.
Doesn't make it true.
Google results are not a yardstick of truth.
Again, that's why peer review is the Wikipedia gold standard for credibility.
I am not stating that "India is the home to every martial art on the planet", "India was IT, end of argument" or that "India is the only influence".
From Indian martial arts 21:41, 9 August 2006 Freedom skiesNot "vital influence" nor "founding influence" nor even "one of the founding influences".
"the origin".
India being a founding influence is the overwhelmingly popular point of view, the view held by two people Kenny (who says he practices kung Fu) and JFD (who says he knows it) is strictly held by a couple of people with an affinity for Kung Fu and who can't bear to think about it's origins being outside of their comfort zone, no matter how microscopic their train of thought is.
Someone who replaced Roy Porter's 1st/2nd century dating of the Caraka Samhita with 'The science of medicine originates in ancient India as "Ayurveda"' without providing a source and has repeatedly done the same on other topics has NO moral authority—NONE—to lecture anyone else about their "comfort zones" or "microscopic trains of thought".
;Summary of latest edits
*Changed "Dravidian" to "Indian". Sources cited do not specify whether Indian influence was Dravidian or not. Moreover, the majority of Indian cultural transmission to Southeast Asia occurred during the Gupta dynasty, which was not Dravidian.
*Changed "Indianized kingdoms" to "Malay peoples" with wikilink. Though Indian influence had reached the Philippines, there was no Indianized kingdom on its territory.
*Replaced some of the external links with footnoted quotes.
*Credited Marion Manzo and Richard C. Brown, the co-authors of, respectively, Cezar Borkowski and Hidetaka Nishiyama.
*Miyagi, Funakoshi, Nishiyama and Goodin are rightly respected as teachers, fighters, even organizers, but not one of them has the reputation of a Tang Hao, a Matsuda or a Henning as a historian of the martial arts.
*Expanded quotations from Henning.
*Updated "Shaolin kung fu: The legend of Bodhidharma" wikilink.JFD 18:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  You're Welcome 

message: Inconsequential mumblings based on suppositions, flashbacks taken out of context, confusion routines and whatnot, you sound kinda tired this time though. Anyways, nice job on placing the malay line and thanks for mentioning the Miyagi, Goodin etc. in the notes, I did'nt think of it but thanks for going the distance anyways.
I'd love to argue out the flaws in your Roy Porter outrage thing but this is not the place for discussing ancient medicine, you just keep repeating that outrage routine because I won't respond to what I believe is an off topic confusion routine.
The idea of mentioning edit patterns on talk page is good too, I'll try to follow it.Freedom skies 18:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Freedom skies response

message: Look, why are you so eager to only put your version of the edits on the article?!! You won't allow us to put our edits on it and you delete our edits whenever you feel it contradicts your view of the world... you have never been able to dispute one iota of reference that we have put on the article yet you are eager to remove it so that the article represents your views only... I'm placing a disputed tag on this article... please leave it here or else the article will be locked... you've already had it locked already. and please don't mention that no dispute exists because one obviously does... further, your citations are out of context... many of those citations that you've placed on the article actually support our view not yours... they confirm that everone believes that this bodhidharma legend is b.s. Kennethtennyson 21:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: no compromise so far

message: Look, why are you so eager to only put your version of the edits on the article?!! You won't allow us to put our edits on it and you delete our edits whenever you feel it contradicts your view of the world... you have never been able to dispute one iota of reference that we have put on the article yet you are eager to remove it so that the article represents your views only... I'm placing a disputed tag on this article... please leave it here or else the article will be locked... you've already had it locked already. and please don't mention that no dispute exists because one obviously does... further, your citations are out of context... many of those citations that you've placed on the article actually support our view not yours... they confirm that everone believes that this bodhidharma legend is b.s. Kennethtennyson 21:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC
I won't even go into discussion of economics of the indian subcontinent before the british came.. you cite one book but most other books state that China had the world's largest economy for most of the christian era... especially when you factor in the Yuan dynasty...
finally, you have still to give any reference to support your preposterous view that Mallahyudhha was a martial arts or that the british were instrumental in the fall of all indian martial arts... which i take as a blatant view of your prejudiced view on the world...Kennethtennyson 21:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: no compromise so far

message: :Being poor helps learn martial arts ?? 200 years of tourturous foreign occupation that saw the end of Kshatriya culture, downfall of princely states and the Kings who patronized the Kshatriyas had no effect ?? modernization lead to ending of unarmed martial arts in India while the same modernisaztion worked in japan ??? 
:And the mention of Bodhidharma is written to indicate the mentions in the NYT, the view of him being either a legend is not mentioned, there have been legends based on the man, but his influences on martial arts of relevance are subscribed to by a school of thought, anyways neither POVs find their way into the article and all the article says is he has been mentioned in the NYT, that's it.
:Anyways, I'll have to run right now, as soon as i come back, more rounds of aimless arguments over proving blatently the obvious, I guess. 
:Freedom skies 21:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Look, my only concern right now is that we need to leave the disputed tag on the article... you can do whatever wacky things you want with the article but you need to leave the disputed tag as we are currently compiling a nice book here on our views of the world... after we leave the disputed tag we can continue to discuss the merits of your citations... by the way = have you read any of these articles that you cite?  Kennethtennyson 21:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What the ??

message: The Mallayuddha issue could be resolved with the relevant quotations from the Rgveda, Mahabharata, etc.
Doing so would also provide a source for the statements.
JFD 21:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: the quotations in english are equivalent to the following... "this god-king fought that god-king and they wrestled... and they wrestled for a very long time... and earth and the sky shook.. on and on... and finally this god-king defeated that god-king" you can find any version of the mahabharata at your local university library... they will all say the same equivalent thing...Kennethtennyson 21:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mallayuddha 

message: Look, the only reason we let you put Funakoshi's opinion - personal opinion mind you-- is because he is someone we can verify and also we just got tired of arguing with you on why fact is derived from research and evidence, not personal opinion... secondly i don't know who the hell this Mr.R.Venkatachalam is - for all i know, it could be you... that is an editorial page on a private website that states that it will teach you the "secrets" of kalaripayattu... anyone even you or i can write a letter stating that we are this Mr. R. Venkatachalam....  Finally, i'm tired of you turning this article into your own POV rant...  If you want to be fair, you should agree to this...
1) for every one statement, paragraph or idea that you provide, I or JFD would like to write a statement, paragraph or idea that presents our view.  Both of us have to provide verifiable sources - not personal or private websites - and you can't quote people or articles out of context or snippets of articles like you have been doing...if you look at my edit on August 30 at 2:55 that is what i attempted to do.  Beleive it or not, this is not your personal soap box to present your whacky biased and possibly racist personal ideas... you're currently discounting people who are academics in their fields because they are white (your quote not mine), blaming the brits for the supposed downfall of indian martial arts, claiming a version of history where indian martial arts is the progenitor of all martial arts, and then making up the history of indian martial arts...and then using private websites to support your beliefs... fair's fair... one paragraph for you one paragraph for us..
2) if we disagreee on a major idea, then we should place disputed or pov tags on the article.  Quit removing the disputed tags.
Kennethtennyson 02:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: follow wikipedia rules

message: I've fully protected this due to edit disputes and warring, please settle the issue here. Yanksox 00:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected