Talk:Battle rifle

message: :I noticed this too. If you read it again you'll notice it does say "the term may also describe older..." which makes the image not necessarily a contradiction of the paragraph, but I agree it's unclear. I think this really just has to do with the origins of the term, not really having a particular purpose and used at will in American gun magazines and internet forums. Its lack of any official definition or usage outside of American gun culture makes it hard to be completely clear, so I'm not really sure how to improve this article. Ironmatic1 (talk) 03:17, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

message: Where exactly has this term originated from? Some are saying its from Halo...I don't think so. In Halo 1 at least, it was more like an SMG. Leedeth 03:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Origin of the term?

message: The AK-47 is not among the list of battle rifles, yet it uses the 7.62 by 39 mm cartridge, as do the G3, M14, FN SCAR H and several others. If the caliber is the main difference between an assault and a battle rifle, why is the AK-47 considered an assault rifle and not a battle rifle in this article?
:Simple, the Heckler & Koch G3, M14 rifle, etc. don't use 7.62x39, they use 7.62x51 NATO. Completely different cartridges.--LWF (talk) 02:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately you can't just go by the calibre of the weapon - 7.62x39, like 7.92 Mauser Kurz is an intermediate round because despite being full calibre, it has a greatly reduced propellant charge - a hypothetical Soviet Battle Rifle (perhaps some version of the AVB-7.62) would have fired 7.62 Russian which, like 7.62NATO and similar rounds is very much full power.  Confusion is added by a variety of different languages and classification systems as to what is a battle rifle and what isn't - the term exists and does seem to more or less mean "assault rifle that fires a full power cartridge", but it's not exactly universal by any means. 62.196.17.197 (talk) 17:27, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with this definition of battle rifle being a large sized "assault rifle that fires a full power cartridge". FN FALs and G3s are assault rifles and they also are available with full auto capability. Both are controllable in full auto fire due to their weight helping to absorb the recoil of the 7.62mm NATO rounds. So a battle rifle is a variant of assault rifle, not a separate distinction from assault rifle. Walterego (talk) 00:26, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The German Bundeswehr actually calls the G28 "schweres Sturmgewehr", Heavy assault rifle FSbiran (talk) 17:12, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

text: You never shot a 7.62x39mm gun in full auto, it's really impractical even if you are a big strong guy FSbiran (talk) 17:14, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: AK-47?

message: If a Battle rifle like the Stoner 63 (in his Rifle version) or the IMBEL MD-97A2 be rechambered to 5.56 NATO, it will continue be a Battle Rifle??  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cypher3 (talk • contribs) 00:57, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No. 5.56x45mm NATO is an Assault Rifle cartridge.  The IMBEL MD-97A2 rechambered to an intermediate-recoil cartridge would be an Assault Rifle derived from a Battle Rifle. TTK (talk) 07:13, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: A Little Doubt

message: "Battle rifle" is a creation of the US gun press.  It has never been used by the world's militaries.  It was a back-formed response to the term "assault rifle" which became common in the US gun press in the 1980s as multiple companies began to manufacture copies of the AR15 and as semi-auto versions of the AK-47 began to be imported from China, Egypt and Finland.  "Assault rifle" of course being the English translation of Hitler's term "Sturm Gewehr" that he used to designate the MP44 carbine, which fired a reduced-power "intermediate" cartridge rather than a "full-power" cartridge like the 7.9mm Mauser.
A simple definition would be "select-fire or semi-automatic rifle that fires a 'full-power' cartridge of the sort developed prior to World War I."  Detachable box magazines may or may not be necessary --- the M1 Garand and its "en bloc clip" haven't prevented it being described as a "battle rifle."  Note here that the 7.62mm NATO cartridge, despite being adopted in 1957, is functionally almost identical to the .30-06  cartridge it replaced and should be regarded as a "pre-WW I" cartridge for this matter.  Same caliber, same weight of bullet, nearly identical velocity.  The 7.65mm Argentine/Belgian Mauser cartridge --- developed in 1891 --- was nearly identical to the 7.62mm NATO, differing only in minor details of bullet diameter and length and taper of the case.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.127.185.105 (talk) 11:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you're partly correct. Edward C. Crossman, (U.S. Army Captain, NRA writer, noted small arms expert, etc.) (1889-1939) used the term "battle rifle" to refer to the M1903 Springfield and the M1917 Enfield as far back as 1919. "Battle rifle" refers to more than just the caliber--it refers to a heavy rifle that can also be used in what is now called "close quarters combat" (bayoneting, butt-stroking, etc.) for which the modern "assault rifle" is totally unsuitable.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.97.90.218 (talk) 04:03, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Battle Rifle is a term that only makes sense if it is a kind of Assault Rifle, a sub-category of assault rifle. If butt-stroking is part of what makes a weapon a battle rifle, then any assault rifle with a wooden or heavy stock would be ideal. Plus numerous weapons that wikipedia editors have asserted are battle rifles have lighter plastic stocks, such as the HK 417, G3, FN SCAR, AR-10.Walterego (talk) 16:14, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not think a Battle Rifle could be a sub-category of Assault Rifle, because both types of rifle are defined in part by their calibers, and these parts of their definitions are contradictory.  An Assault Rifle chambers a low-recoil cartridge (either a heavy bullet with low charge, per 7.62x39mm, or a light bullet with higher charge, per 5.56x45mm), while a Battle Rifle fires a high-recoil "full-power" cartridge (such as 7.62x54R or 7.62x51mm).  These are not the only criteria that matter, but I am focusing on them here because they prevent either from being a subcategory of the other. Perhaps this could be generalized by characterizing the cartridge by its recoil momentum ((bullet mass + propellant mass) * velocity), and specifying a range of momentum in the definition? TTK (talk) 19:09, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

text: Battle Rifle could be a sub-category of Assault Rifle, because only the Battle Rifle is defined by its caliber. The term Assault Rifle encompasses both "full-power" cartridges like 7.62x51mm and lower powered cartridges like 7.62x39mm, 5.56x45mm and others. The entry for Assault Rifle at Encyclopaedia Britannica cites as examples of assault rifles: "Widely used assault rifles are the United States’ M16, the Soviet Kalashnikov (the AK-47 and modernized versions), the Belgian FAL and FNC, and the German G3." So the range of intermediate-power cartridges includes 7.62mmx51, according to Encyclopedia Britannica. Furthermore all European manufacturers of Assault Rifles such as FN and HK, explicitly label their 7.62x51mm select fire rifles as Assault Rifles. HK identifies both the G3 and HK 417 as Assault Rifles , and FN even has "assault rifle" in the name of the FN SCAR-H (Special operations forces Combat Assault Rifle - Heavy). Additional sources for this are the top 3 google results for "heckler and koch 417" (other than wikipedia) which all categorize the HK 417 as an assault rifle. Googling Heckler and koch g3 pulls up this top 3 result, the popular guns encylopedia World Guns, which categorizes the G3 as an assault rifle  .Walterego (talk) 09:14, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Back-formed  term from lousy hack writers 

message: There seem to be a lack of sources for this article. The only citation is presumably for the assertion that one particular firearm, the H&K G3, is a battle rifle. If that's all we can source then that's all we should say. The article has had a 'citation needed' tag for five years (!). If no additional sources can be found then we should go ahead and remove the unsourced material. Rezin (talk) 22:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I searched Google and found one new book, published this year, on the topic. The Battle Rifle: Development and Use Since World War II . It appears to qualify as a reliable source since it's put out by a respectable publishing firm. Therefore the article ought to be rewritten from scratch based on it and any other good sources which can be found. Rezin (talk) 22:38, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Where in the ref I can find the sentecned ""Battle rifle" is a post-World War II term for military service rifles that are fed ammunition via detachable magazines and fire a full-powered rifle cartridge." proofed?--Sanandros (talk) 20:11, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  First sentence 

message: The start of the article has "Battle rifle" is a post-World War II term for military service rifles that are fed ammunition via detachable magazines", yet later gives the M1, which does not use a box mag, as an example  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.0.196.219 (talk) 16:03, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Contradiction in article

message: I found a video on YouTube, published by the Bundeswehr channel where the HK 417 is refered to as a "schweres Sturmgewehr"= heavy assault rifle.
Was such a designation used anywhere else?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP6vEAt9YeU FSbiran (talk) 10:26, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heavy assault rifle designation?