Talk:Chechen Republic of Ichkeria

message: I don´t know if the talibans recognized CRI but I am sure that the Georgian Republic, in the time of Gamsaxurdia recognized the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria.
:Prove it. --Golbez 20:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: recognition

message: Is there a map of Chechen Republic of Ichkeria? Thanks.  Georgianis  |  (t) 07:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't it coterminous with Chechnya? --Golbez 08:53, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Map

message: It's a lying wolf in a circle. I can't provide it now, but you can see it on the first of these armoured vehicles. --HanzoHattori 13:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Coat of arms

message: For a few years now there's the black flag of Jihad added in (alike the red stars to many flags once, for example in Yugoslavia). It's cut-and-pasted on the green field, in the oval-shape. --HanzoHattori 16:42, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "New" (not really) flag

message: Actually, Umarov's action was a weird act by the active president who has dissaloved his own country by a decree. But it's not like everyone obeyed. Akhmed Zakayev (his former personal friend and comrade) et al (including reportedly many active ethnic Chechen fighters) believe ChRI still exists. Umarov's clique now hounds them with the threats of actions by the Emirate's mukhabarat and what not. --HanzoHattori (talk) 01:28, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Prime Minister. The post of president is either vacant or abolished, I'm not sure (in any case no one removed Umarov, he removed himself). See Chechenpress for their part of the story and Kavkaz Center for the other one (and their respective associated websites). --HanzoHattori (talk) 02:20, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Enlisting North Caucasian fighters to operate in their own homelands (volunteers in Chechnya were already in '94) is the other thing than capitulating to their (and Movladi Udugov's) demands to abolish the whole idea of the Chechen state entirely. Personally I see this as an act of treason. If you saw the link I showed you, even "pan-Islamist" Basayev, who basically co-ordinated the Caucasian Front and even died in Ingushetia, didn't agree on any of this. --HanzoHattori (talk) 03:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you sure? You might be right but at the same time let's not forget the Dagestan War, where Basayev wanted independence for Dagestan too. - PietervHuis 05:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Caucasian Emirate is only half of the story

message: I'm thinking of replacing the makeshift infobox on this page by a 'former country infobox' (like the one used in the article about the Irish Republic and add a lot of info. This is a sensitive subject so let me know what you think about it. ForrestSjap (talk) 19:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yea, that's a good idea, it would be great if you could include a similar map with Chechnya highlighted along with it. - PietervHuis (talk) 12:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Wikimedia Commons has one, I'll start working on it today.ForrestSjap (talk) 12:24, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

text: It's about important historic events. Listing the War in Dagestan does not suggest that the war was waged by the ChRI but rather that it had a significant impact on it, which it did, since it was the casus belli of the Second Chechen War.ForrestSjap (talk) 09:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox

message: The following text seems to disappear from this article:
 
In lieu of the devastated economic structure, kidnapping emerged as the principal source of income countrywide, procuring over $200 million during the three year independence of the chaotic fledgling state.Tishkov, Valery.  Chechnya: Life in a War-Torn Society.  Berkeley:  University of California Press, 2004. Page 114.  In May 1998, Valentin Vlasov, a personal envoy of Boris Yeltsin, was kidnapped and released on November 13; the Russian government reportedly paid a $7 million ransom for his release.Tishkov, Valery.  Chechnya: Life in a War-Torn Society.  Berkeley:  University of California Press, 2004. Page 120.  On October 25 1998, Shadid Bargishev, Chechnya's top anti-kidnapping official, was killed in a remote controlled car bombing as he was about to begin a major campaign against hostage-takers. In March of 1999, General Gennadiy Shpigun, the Kremlin's envoy to Chechnya, was kidnapped at the airport in Grozny, and ultimately found dead in 2000. 
Political violence was rife as well. On December 10 Mansur Tagirov, Chechnya's top prosecutor, disappeared while returning to Grozny. On June 21 the Chechen security chief, Lecha Khulygov, and a guerrilla commander, Vakha Dzhafarov, fatally shot each other in an argument. The internal violence in Chechnya peaked on July 16 1998, when fighting broke out between Maskhadov's National Guard force led by Sulim Yamadayev and radical Wahhabi-sect militants in the town of Gudermes; over 50 people were reported killed and the state of emergency was declared in Chechnya.Further emergency measures in Chechnya 
I think that is important and should be mentioned somewhere.Biophys (talk) 01:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have seen your next. Current version tells nothing about kidnapping of Vlasov, which is a notable thing. It tells nothing about Tagirov, and so on. It is not a good idea to delete comments of other users, especially if they are wrong. If you do this with other users, they might blame you of WP:CIV violation. Good luck!Biophys (talk) 03:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, this information should not have been removed.ForrestSjap (talk) 09:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Once again I did not just delete an entire segment of text. I rewrote parts of it, and added in new information inbetween. I've put Tagirov back in, not vlasov though. Vlasov wasnt killed he was simply kidnapped by criminals for a while. I try to remove small details like that. It's already noted that there was a lot of kidnapping, no need to give out a list of names of people who were kidnapped. This is a page about a country. You don't find such information on Russia for example (it should belong on the border incident of the 2nd chechen war) - PietervHuis (talk) 16:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps Vlasov's kidnapping belongs to another article, such as Kidnappings in Chechnya. But it would be good to place this somewhere.Biophys (talk) 19:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: A segment of text

message: Yeah, Hmm..I think that it isnt right to have the forward going to the Chechen Republic, because the Chechen Rep. of Ichkeria still does exist, which proves in the infobox of having a president in the year 2007. --88.149.120.201 (talk) 17:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Hmm?

message: As for the “open slave market” here’s a more accurate report on that[8]
Well, let's use this source alongside Sakwa's book. The existence of a slave market in Grozny is not mentioned in this version so I propose to leave this passage in the Human rights section. Alæxis¿question? 19:31, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Not Russian government critics". This is interesting, Richard Sakwa is a chechen government critic, how is this different? Anyway human rights reports and any other book I've read do not contain any information whatsoever on the redflag allegations Sakwa puts forward, that's a refutation itself. You've now reverted your actions again, even though it's in clear violation with policies such as WP:REDFLAG, WP:UNDUE, WP:NEU, WP:IINFO and more. Participate on the discussions here and further concensus building or leave it to others please, because the edit warring is useless. Grey Fox (talk) 13:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Miyokan and Alaexis, could you please provide exact pages were Sakwa makes these claims per WP:Verifiability? Claiming that any sources by "Russian government critics" are unreliable is absurd. Obviously, Sakwa is not one of the critics. Why do you think that "friends" of Russian government like Sakwa are more reliable? Note that anyone can be an academic and an agent of influence at the same time. There are many examples of that.Biophys (talk) 16:01, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 2

message: And these are the worst allegations. Again Sakwa does not use sources for his statistics so how he found out these statistics is an enigma. A few google hits helped me trace them back though.
Sounds familiar? This article dates back from 1998.[7] For some reason however Sakwa felt the need to change “one to five murders a week” to “eight to ten murders a week”. Sakwa’s worst allegation is that “the authorities were directly involved”. If that’s not WP:REDFLAG then what is?
The only discrepancy is the number of murders per week. It's a shame that Sakwa does not quote his sources... Here I propose to give the lower estimate of the number of murders and using Gakayev's article as a source and keep other info from Sakwa's book.
I agree that the claim about the involvement of authorities is rather important. So let's write 'According to Richard Sakwa the authorities ...' here. Alæxis¿question? 16:11, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea, we should as well as find the words of government officials on this (I believe they're from their whitebook). I've been looking into the years of independence and there's a lot of interesting information, about the behaviour of the chechen government, the financial and political situation, the rivality between warlords and the relation between Russia and the government of Maskhadov. Many of it seems very useful, same goes for the years under Dudayev. Grey Fox (talk) 16:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've (temporarely) replaced the allegations with the report you linked from Memorial, maybe we will have additional info later on. I'm not sure yet if I support a seperate section on human rights. It's true that the current page of Chechnya has a seperate section too, I'm not sure if I support that either. However, the page for Russia for example doesn't have a seperate section on human rights either (but instead a seperate article). Grey Fox (talk) 22:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 3

message: I've found more references to a different flag and coat of arms like: http://russiatrek.org/chechnya-republic Than the wolf one and standard flag. I won't be changing it until I find something more solid, because the majority of what I am finding seems to come from another wiki, New World Wiki, and I just find that iffy. But, again, I'm not finding anything on the wolf coat of arms (Besides the one picture above). References please? ItsWolfeh (talk) 11:33, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The flag your link has is the one of the loyalist autonomist republican government. The flag used here is of the separatist government. They are two different entities, and have two different flags. --Yalens (talk) 15:35, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Coat of Arms and Flag Outdated?

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect East west cali. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  TheAwesomeHwyh 03:32, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "East west cali" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: New editors should realize that it is vandalism to erase fully sourced statements. If you have a disagreement, please ADD it to the discussion, making sure that you cite your own reliable sources.  Disputes have to be taken to this talk page or you will get in trouble for edit warring.  Casting aspersions on the integrity of other editors violates the rule that you must assume good faith. Please read Wikipedia:Assume good faith and Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary   Now to the the issue of bias in sources, see Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Biased or opinionated sources which states: "Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective."  Rjensen (talk) 07:46, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just deleted a sourced fact as I believe it violates WP:SYN. Happy to discuss it here. Alaexis¿question? 16:00, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avoid edit warring 

message: , re this edit, I think that there was a NPOV problem with the section which I tried to fix. The UN report that is cited in it describes both Samashki massacre and attacks on civilians by Chechen militants, specifically the Budyonnovsk raid.
We could either describe the atrocities committed by both sides without giving details (as I have done) or provide details for both. I don't think it's NPOV to have no mention of Budyonnovsk and Kizlyar hostage crises in the article about CRI. Alaexis¿question? 17:42, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I didn't take issue with Budyonnovsk and Kizylar incidents being included, but rather the removal of a good excerpt from a thrid party source on the Samashki incident. You're welcome to include that excerpt about Budyonnovsk in the article if you want. Both Budyonnovsk and Samashki should be mentioned in my opinion.Sextus Caedicius (talk) 18:01, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  My reasoning was that this information was present in the wikilinked article about the Samashki massacre, but I'm fine with your changes too. Cheers, Alaexis¿question? 20:02, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  War crimes 

message: The international recognition section suggests that Ukraine has recognized this entity as independent or whatever, but this is not the case (yet). There is a different bill for this. At the moment the parliament voted to recognize the territory as "temporarily occupied". See  for example. So this comes across as OR and is misleading. Mellk (talk) 02:20, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: There are two separate issues here.
#Was not it recognized as an independent state by Russia itself per Russia–Chechnya Peace Treaty, and was not it a de facto independent state - for a period of time?  If so, this should be noted in the infobox.
#According to RS,, the resolution has been already adopted ("A total of 287 Ukrainian lawmakers adopted a resolution on Tuesday, Oct. 18, recognizing the occupation and genocide of the Chechen people.") and it is different from another resolution proposed in July by Olexiy Honcharenko and Musa Magomedov. How exactly this should be framed could be a question, but it probably deserved to be noted in the infobox.My very best wishes (talk) 15:51, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I would suggest to include Russia in International recognition section. It was recognized by Russia only for a period of time (a few years), which should be noted in the Table. My very best wishes (talk) 17:46, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really. There was no formal recognition of independence. Status of Chechnya was also deferred to 2001. Russia still claimed Chechnya as part of Russia at the time. Mellk (talk) 18:13, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I am not an expert, but simply looking at RS , it says about the agreement: Zakayev said that ...  in the end Moscow agreed to recognize Chechen independence, even though the logical next step -- the establishing of formal diplomatic relations -- was never taken. It also says: "The final document was indeed entitled "Peace Treaty and Principles of Inter-relations." The two sides agreed to abjure forever the use of force or threat of force in resolving disputed issues, and to build bilateral relations "on the generally recognized principles and norms of international law.". It says "international law" rather than "Law of Russian Federation" as it would be if Chechnya remained a federal subject of Russia. Hence it was a recognition of independence in 1997, was not it? You say: "Status of Chechnya was also deferred to 2001". Are you talking about the Khasavurt agreement? Any ref? My very best wishes (talk) 23:49, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes the treaty was ambiguous to the point that both sides could interpret it to their liking. But this is reflected in RS, for example: "The treaty, a brief five sentences, formalizes the cease-fire reached last August. It does not mention, or resolve, Chechnya's demand for independence... The Kremlin has not ceded independence to Chechnya, but both sides appeared willing to set aside the question during today's ceremony.". Mellk (talk) 01:23, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I see. Yes, the agreement was too vague, hardly a de juro admission of Chechen independence. OK. My very best wishes (talk) 01:37, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading recognition 

message: @Dark4tune, regarding this edit, my point was that the previous text () described the situation more accurately. Both Zavgayev and Umarov claimed to be the successors of ChRI. Alaexis¿question? 08:12, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: If I may chime in: IMO, the question has to be whether there were actually (at any point) two exile governments claiming to represent the ChRI at the same time. As long as Umarov considered himself head of the Chechen Republic, Zakayev's faction was at least nominally loyal to him. When Umarov declared that the republic had been replaced by the emirate in 2007, he effectively and officially no longer represented the republic, as he no longer considered it as existing. From this point, Zakayev's faction was the only group to still call themselves the ChRI exile government.Thus, strictly speaking, there were never several entities claiming to be the ChRI exile government; however, there have been several groups claiming to represent a Chechen government. Applodion (talk) 10:44, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are very correct, Applodion. The Caucasus Emirate was never meant to be a continuation of the Ichkerian government, but a successor to it. This is what I had in mind when I made those edits. Dark4tune (talk) 17:30, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two entities