Talk:Bermondsey

message: The following is coming from Talk:Bermondsey:
I have written a timeline of the history of Bermondsey: http://www.bermondseyhistory.com/ Is it appropriate to like to this work here? -- User:Robert Brook
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Absolutely. But I've taken the liberty of entering a stub just in case someone marks the article for deletion on grounds of emptiness. Please feel free to replace it with something more substantial. User:David Parker 
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Millwall "has never been located in Bermondsey" - it is currently in the neighbourhood known as South Bermondsey, adjacent to South Bermondsey train station. 
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Bermondsey also gained the first underground tube railway, the Tower Subway of 1869-1870. This was supplanted in 1894 by Tower Bridge, which links the westernmost edge of Bermondsey to the City of London. - if Tower Bridge is the western border of Bermondsey the Tower Subway can't be in Bermondsey.
WRONG: The Tower Subway had a hauled cart on a track, which was prone to break down, so was removed and became a pedestrian tunnel; this hardly constitutes a 'tube railway' in the sense understood even at that time. In the period between 1870 and 1894 there was no local authority called 'Bermondsey' other than the 'civil parish' created under the 1855 Metropolis Management Act. The area between St Saviour's / Dockhead was a parish 'union' ('District Board of Works') between the Southwark parishes of St Olave's, St John-Horsleydown and St Thomas. 
In 1899 the parishes of Southwark St Olave and St Thomas were combined as a civil Parish. Both were known as 'St Olave's'. Sortly after these were placed in the Metro Boro of Bermondsey, which explains why some believe they have always been in something called 'Bermondsey' today. An example; the 1571 Seal of the St Olave grammar school is inscribed "The Seal of the Free School of the Parishioners of St Olave's Southwark, Found by Q Elz" 79.75.2.246 (talk) 13:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Met Boro went further west than Tower Bridge to about as far as Weston Street. There are still a few street signs that have survived since 1965 indicating this. MRSC 20:10, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Despite the confusion as to the 'boundaries' of Bermondsey, I think it would be best to include Tower Subway and Hay's Wharf. --Robert 10:03, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Bermondsey also gained the first underground tube railway, the Tower Subway of 1869-1870. This was supplanted in 1894 by Tower Bridge, which links the westernmost edge of Bermondsey to the City of London. - if Tower Bridge is the western border of Bermondsey the Tower Subway can't be in Bermondsey.
WRONG: The Tower Subway had a hauled cart on a track, which was prone to break down, so was removed and became a pedestrian tunnel; this hardly constitutes a 'tube railway' in the sense understood even at that time. In the period between 1870 and 1894 there was no local authority called 'Bermondsey' other than the 'civil parish' created under the 1855 Metropolis Management Act. The area between St Saviour's / Dockhead was a parish 'union' ('District Board of Works') between the Southwark parishes of St Olave's, St John-Horsleydown and St Thomas. 
In 1899 the parishes of Southwark St Olave and St Thomas were combined as a civil Parish. Both were known as 'St Olave's'. Sortly after these were placed in the Metro Boro of Bermondsey, which explains why some believe they have always been in something called 'Bermondsey' today. An example; the 1571 Seal of the St Olave grammar school is inscribed "The Seal of the Free School of the Parishioners of St Olave's Southwark, Found by Q Elz" 79.75.2.246 (talk) 13:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Met Boro went further west than Tower Bridge to about as far as Weston Street. There are still a few street signs that have survived since 1965 indicating this. MRSC 20:10, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Despite the confusion as to the 'boundaries' of Bermondsey, I think it would be best to include Tower Subway and Hay's Wharf. --Robert 10:03, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed for revision

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Recently it has been asserted that Bermondsey was historically in the county of Kent. A solid foundation for the argument that Bermondsey was in the historical county of Surrey is the Victoria County History's volume 4 of the history of Surrey, in which the parish of Bermondsey is described. Then there are several further reliable sources that I have to hand, which back this up:
* Blair, J., "Frithuwold's kingdom and the origins of Surrey", in Bassett, S. (ed.), The Origins of Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms, Leicester University Press, 1989, pp. 97–107, in which Bermondsey is taken to be part of Surrey in the early 8th century (p. 106). Incidentally, this source has been cited in the article for many years now.
* Domesday Book of 1086 lists Bermondsey as part of Surrey – see for example Williams, A. & Martin, G.H. (eds.), Domesday Book A Complete Translation, Penguin, 1992, pp. 72 & 80. Domesday Book is strictly a primary source, but it is unimpeachable here.
* Ekwall, E., The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-Names (4th edn.), Oxford University Press, 1960, p. 39, has Bermondsey in Surrey.
* Stenton, F.M., Anglo-Saxon England (3rd edn.), Oxford University Press, 1971, p. 160, puts Bermondsey in Surrey, again in an 8th-century context.
* Youngs, F.A. Jr, Guide to the Local Administrative Units of England Volume I: Southern England, Royal Historical Society, 1979, p. 473, states that Bermondsey was part of Surrey until it was transferred to London in 1889.
Among maps, there is the website A Vision of Britain Through Time, which displays the map for Surrey from the HMSO's Boundary Commission Report of 1832, where the location of Bermondsey is clearly within Surrey,, as evidenced by comparison with the location of Bermondsey Abbey on a modern Ordnance Survey map; A Vision of Britain Through Time also quotes from John Bartholomew's 1887 Gazetteer of the British Isles as follows: "Bermondsey, par. and ry. sta., Southwark bor., E. Surrey, forming a SE. suburb of London, 627 ac., pop. 86,652 ; extensive wool stores, tanneries, and wharves."
Southwark Council's website has a page on researching family history, from which I quote: "The family history society for the London Borough of Southwark is the East Surrey Family History Society. There may be overlapping interest with neighbouring areas covered by the West Surrey and North-West Kent Family History Societies." I hope that helps. Nortonius (talk) 10:27, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems exhaustive. TheGreaterLondonEditor argued on their talk page that Google Maps, Bing Maps and the Southwark Council  support his claim that Bermondsey is in the historical county of Kent, but I don't see that they do. Google Maps, for example, doesn't know the borders of the historical counties and places Bermondsey in Greater London, which of course is correct but doesn't say anything about the historical county either way. The Southwark Council mentions Old Kent Road, but doesn't say anything about county Kent, and I'd expect that road used to lead to Kent and wasn't within Kent. Huon (talk) 14:56, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, yes I saw TheGreaterLondonEditor talking about online maps that don't show historical county boundaries; and mentioning Southwark Council, which is why I included a page from their website among sources that say, in this case implicitly, that Bermondsey was in Surrey. And, exactly – just as I was driving a few minutes ago along Lewes Road, which is not in Lewes but in Brighton, and leads to Lewes. Similarly, if I wanted to leave Brighton, and therefore Sussex, for London, I would start by driving along the London Road, in Brighton. The same editor claims to know that Bermondsey was in Kent because they're from London; I was born in London and lived there for 33 years but that has nothing to do with it, obviously. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 16:22, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bermondsey, Surrey 

message: Please do not send me anything or talk about me from 01/02/2018 to the date of 16/02/2018 during that time I will not be able to reply to your comments and enquires because I will be busy 
TheGreaterLondonEditor
 TheGreaterLondonEditor (talk) 18:42, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  bermondsey,kent