Talk:Étienne Perier (governor)

message: In looking for sources on the family surname, I ran across this:  , I believe you've stated that Vergé-Franceschi is a high quality, reliable source. He states:
If this is accurate and unless there are other sources stating otherwise, we should amend Perier's birthplace and add a mention, sourced to this article, in the Early life section that the family moved from Le Havre to Dunkirk by 1691. —Carter (talk) 13:15, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. --Belyny (talk) 15:21, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, I found his birth certificate (page 11): https://archives.mairie-brest.fr/4DCGI/Web_RegistreArtGG305/ILUMP30831. Etienne de Perier (born "Perier", he became "de Perier" when he was ennobled in 1726) was born in Brest on February 27, 1686. Loris565 (talk) 12:59, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birthplace 

message: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB05:8915:D300:C07D:1416:154E:6727 (talk) 15:49, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The source for that image isn't labeled clearly in commons and the link provided seems to be behind a firewall making it hard to assess where and when this image originates. The previous signature had similar issues, but there's not enough evidence either way to show which one is more definitive over the other. The fact remains that sources (modern and contemporary) are inconsistent in the use of "de" with a slight preponderance of sources not using it. The "de" form alternative and the variability in how his name is rendered are in the lede. I'm not seeing a compelling reason to rename the article. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 15:55, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Sir, I have added more information about the origin of this document and a new link so that you will not be bothered by this firewall. It seems to me that the most accurate signature is the one in which he gives his full name and not only his surname as in the previous one. In my opinion, this signature justifies the renaming of the page. Moreover, it is obvious that one must rely on this signature written by the subject himself rather than on sources published centuries later. You should also know that the French custom at that time was to sign with your name without the particle.  --HCC789 (talk) 16:40, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Following that rationale, you would be seeking to rename the article "Estienne de Perier", which is a name that doesn't appear in modern scholarship regarding him. The additional sourcing you added shows it's from parish records from Lanriec covering 1666–1747. That doesn't really help understand how/why his signature appears (or whether it is his signature or his father's or someone else with whom he shared the name). —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 17:31, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No, because the question of the first name and the patronymic are quite distinct. The first name Estienne must be written Etienne without s since its spelling has changed in the French language since a few hundred years. It is only old French that needs to be updated. On the contrary, the surname de Perier remains fixed in time. I will guide you more precisely to the signature. Step 1 : click on the link https://archives.concarneau.fr/4DCGI/Web_Custompage/index.shtm/ILUMP5061. Step 2 : click on "Registres numérisés" on the top left. Step 3 : click on the cross on the left of "Registres paroissiaux". Step 4 : click on "Lanriec". Step 5 : click on the document above (dimension GG12). Step 6 : go to the view n°748 thanks to the menu at the bottom and click on "see the view". The signature is on the left. 
Finally, it is indeed the signature of the subject and not of another person. Why is this so? Because his father died in 1726, but the document dates from 1742, and because there is only one Etienne de Perier at that time (this name has been borne by only 3 people in history, one of whom is still alive). Even if there was another Etienne de Perier who would have left absolutely no trace of his existence, it is obvious that he would not have sponsored a member of a family to which he did not belong... To make it easier for you, I translate the document into English; Baptismal act The year 1742 the 27th day of October I solemnly baptized on the baptismal font of Lanriec Claude Rosalie de Salvert Perier born the same day at the castle of Moros, legitimate daughter of squire Antoine Alexis de Salvert Perier, captain of ships, and of Angelique Aimée Rosalie de Laduz de Vieuxchamps her father and mother, the godfather was squire Etienne de Perier, captain of ships, and miss Jeanne Claude de Laduz de Vieuxchamps who signed. Signed: Jeanne Claude Laduz de Vieuchant, Estienne de Perier, Rome de Pesron, Perier de Salvert, Louis Perier de Kerrichard, J. Menguy priest and rector of Lanriec.
The fact that he was a captain and that he was the godfather of the daughter of his brother Antoine Alexis leaves absolutely no room for doubt. Etienne de Perier is the author of this signature which shows his real name. I therefore maintain my request for renaming to Étienne de Perier--HCC789 (talk) 18:03, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

text: The page simply won't load for me. Thank you for providing the additional context that could not be gleaned from the image or the sourcing information provided with the file. Feel free to open another formal move discussion, but I still stand by the position that the article is fine at the current location based on it's long-standing stability at this title, the sourcing, and the satisfactory explanation in the lede for the discrepancies in his name. I'd also note that there's a history of sockpuppetry around this article (including in the most recent formal move request), so I'm not particularly willing to see the change without well-sourced evidence and a convincing argument (a single instance of a signature doesn't suffice in my opinion). —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 18:33, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Full signature