Talk:Kayastha/Archive 1

message: Yes, that can happen. To understand this article you need to have an adequate knowledge of the Vedic religion. I can, of course, make it more understandable but that would certainly increase the size of this article, manifolds. You can follow the links and references and get a better grasp of it. And if you want to have a thorough knowledge of the subject, you can talk to me. Be confident, all your doubts will be cleared.Nikhil Srivastava 13:36, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: My answer to IP 90.184.8.189

message: Look at the history of IP 202.54.176.51: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:202.54.176.51 He has a long history of --.
Now, he was the one who did this:
 
"This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards.
Please discuss this issue on the talk page or replace this tag with a more specific message."'''
Do I need to say more? NO.Nikhil Srivastava 13:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup! You need it, IP 202.54.176.51

message: I decline to respond to any of the libel inflicted upon me and my article, by that IP 70.186.172.75. 
That being, in fact, has tested my patience too far. 
‘It’ has been spared for the only consideration that she is a woman.
Yes, Miss Arundhati Bakshi of Baton Rouge, Louisiana, it is my desire to ignore you. 
Don’t let me get down to your level. 
You enjoy your stay here at Wiki and let the peace be undisturbed.Nikhil Srivastava 12:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Readers, look at the edit history before considering any of the views expressed on this page for reflection.

message: The guy with IP address:70.186.172.75; fondly known as MR.BAKSHI, is continually deleting useful information from the Kayastha page, it is painful to me for I had done a lot of work to collect them and so is it to all those who are seriously inclined to make this page a better one. One fact, here, must be brought to notice, this guy constantly keeps on deleting the Shlokas and also the references.  What can be this be called but Vandalism, the Shlokas(and those too from the Vedas and the Puranas) are considered the ultimate authority on a subject like this, and deleting them is a sin. Also he keeps on updating the page for no apparent reasons.Nikhil Srivastava 17:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: This article makes no sense.. I can't understand what is being said. Rewrite so it's understandable to the lay-man? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 90.184.8.189 (talk) 09:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It has been ruined over the past few months. A historical copy is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kayastha&oldid=115504062 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.186.172.75 (talk) 13:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Makes No Sense

message: The Kaysthas are identified with the third sect of the Indian caste system, the facts that people have to understand is that kayasthas are not at all intrested in the business aspect of the third sect but the high level services aspect has been a speciality of the Indo European clan, the fact that they have used their knowledge to perform tasks of diplomacy, official services, ministerial positions, accountancy, finance, law, adminstration has earned them a title of "Likiya Munshi". Also, plush jobs in the finance sector has earned them title of "Lalaji" in India, a title synonymous with well earning Vaishys. 
The attachement of the Kayathas to services like Sube`dars, Kotwals and Diwans have earned them title of "Diwanji" in Medival India, these posts are one are the highest echelons of bureaucracy in Medival India, the Kaysthas are the ones doing just that, attaining the posts that form the highest echelons of bureaucracy, military, finance and other services through sheer knowledge. Freedom skies 09:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vaishys

message: With the advent of ‘Kaliyug’ anti-religiousness increased like never before. Gods were insulted (recently Lord Rama), their Progeny called what not, learned Brahmins molested…
This is nothing new, every Yuga had evils and without it we can not feel the presence of righteousness. This is the law of God, the most intelligent. It is for you to decide which side you want to be.
Be with us- revere your Gods and believe your scriptures or be with sacrilegious devils who are bound to be doomed and will accompany their mates to hell.
The decision is yours now…
Be on our side or …
Nikhil Srivastava 18:54, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Jesus loves you. Repent or you will burn in Hell forever my friend!!!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.186.172.75 (talk) 10:30, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kaliyug at its worst 

message: Since late 19th century AD, officials, anthropologists, and Indologists who took interest in caste aspect of Indian society had/have studied Kayastha community and its agitation for raising its caste/Varna status (in addition to similar study of other communities). Result is that there is enough information available on present and past of Kayastha along with those of other castes in their works. 
See the discussion page  discussion and old wiki page rise of kayastha regarding some of factual inaccuracies in this page. Kayasth appears to be a caste under Shudra category, and Chitragupta himself a Shudra, in Hindu scriptures.
For not initiated readers, Shudra is the status assigned in Hindu scriptures to a large number of communities. These scriptures and hence such assignments reflected views of Brahman community (who are of highest caste/Varna according to Hindu scriptures created by them). These views are world outlook, not confined to believers in Hinduism. In fact, anyone who is not one of three higher Varnas - irrespective of his religion, color, nationality and so on- is a Shudra. See page 24 of [Asok Mitra,11]
For a community that follows Hindu religion but is considered Shudra, it is a dilemma whether to accept this assigned status. Since there is enough abusive preaching/sermon in Hindu scriptures that denigrates an individual of Shudra status, these communities make conscious effort to shed off their Shudra status. This denigration includes everything: from judicial treatment, manners, sex to food. page 22 of [Asok Mitra, 11]
While living inside Hindu society, practical way of avoiding denigration by people believing in Hinduism is avoiding detection of oneself or the community as Shudra.  This leads to impersonation and aping of Hindu Varnas which are assigned higher status in these scriptures. This process of impersonation and aping is what Mr M.N. Srinivas has called Sanskritization. Many of Shudra communities do everything, often in an organized manner, in this process of impersonation and aping which leads to change in their customs, eating habits, and so on. This is done in order to make claim of higher Hindu Varna origin.  
Calling a community a Shudra under Hindu caste system cannot be morally or otherwise wrong. Shudra status is just the view given in Hindu scriptures about all who do not belong to certain communities. Even if a community is not a Shudra, calling it Shudra may be a mistake but cannot be an offence: note that almost every foreigner is a Shudra in view of Hindu scriptures. page 24 of [Asok Mitra, 11]
Below are excerpts from the book Peasant and Monks in British India, Chapter 2 available online:
“
By the late nineteenth century Kayasths had begun organizing a movement to reject their ascribed shudra status in favor of a kshatriya one; by the early twentieth century, many others—particularly Kurmis, Koiris, Kahars, and Goalas—followed the Kayasth lead (although each utilized distinct arguments) and defined for themselves similar kshatriya identities.”
Below excerpt from same source highlight importance of wearing Sacred Thread in the process of Sanskritization: 
““a visit to any of the akharas of Ramanandi bairagis will convince that Sudras of all classes are as freely admitted and invested with the sacred thread as the twice born.”[113] 
Investiture with the sacred thread conferred, by definition, elite “twice-born” status and was theoretically reserved for vaishyas, kshatriyas, and brahmans. By performing this ceremony on behalf of shudras, the Ramanandi sampraday (or some in the sampraday) effectively undermined the hierarchy implicit to caste through the adroit application of varna ideology. The practice of sacred thread investiture in Ramanandi akharas should ultimately be understood in the context of the kshatriya identity movements of the early twentieth century, inasmuch as it encapsulates in a single ritual the entire thrust of the kshatriya campaigns. Lala Sita Ram’s assertion of Ramanandi progressivism in this regard would suggest that the sampraday was involved, at least tangentially, in the process of varna reidentification. It should be added that the willingness to countenance varna distinctions in monastic recruitment and training and the recognition of the varna systemics implicit to sacred thread investiture as a strategy for shudra social advancement are both entirely consistent with the essentially Ramanuji position expressed by Sita Ram in his reaction to Farquhar’s 1920 presentation of Ramanand. ““
The process of Sanskritization has caused almost all communities under influence of Hinduism to find some character in Hindu scriptures to identify with, to legitimize their claim of being upper caste. In fact, many of them have invented up stories and better names for their castes in this process, and prefer these names rather than traditional ones. Please also see wiki pages on kurmi, yadav, gujjar, jat, ahir, maratha and other castes. The connection between Chitragupta and Kayastha may be  also similar. The present community or group of communities known as kayastha adopted this Kayastha name in near past. And as mentioned in references, Hindu scriptures who mention Kayastha primarily mention it as Shudra. Though Chitragupta is the character identified by these communities to relate with, Chitragupta himself appears to be a Shudra in Hindu scriptures. See the details with references to Hindu scriptures in page 36 of [Asok Mitra,11].
Courts in British India also passed judgment on status of Kayastha within Hindu caste system since Hindus were governed by Hindu laws. In a 1916 case, Calcutta High Court judged that Kayastha of Bengal are Shudra. Interestingly, issue of its status was again later considered by Justice Jwala Prasad, himself a Kayastha, in a 1926 case and he held that Kayastha of Bihar are not Shudra but Ksatriya. (See .The online available page of this article at the link starts with mention of the memorial of Kayasth protesting their classification as low-caste).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rollynigam1980 (talk • contribs) 16:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shudra Status and Non-Shudra Claim

message: I have been amused by the attempts made to defile us.
I am not at all amused by the way a Deity had been insulted.
I refer to the latest hoax pasted on the page insulting the Kayasthas and Shree Chitraguptaji. The writer of that hoax is an imbecile and that too of the highest degree, hereafter referred to as “the sly”.
He has a trace of vileness which only a man to be doomed can possess.
The citations that have been so talked about are very tricky things.
I’ll show you how:
Brhadharma Purana says that the sly is an idiot. Brahmavaivart Purana dealing with idiots mentions the sly as an idiot of the highest order. Padma Purana says this sly will never do any thing worthy. Agni Purana mentions that such idiots be burned alive. 
Got my point.
So when I write something or give reference to a religious text I either give the Shloka or the Shloka number so that the people can go and see it for themselves. They are sure to find it. Example:
चित्र इद राजा राजका इदन्यके यके सरस्वतीमनु । 
पर्जन्य इव ततनद धि वर्ष्ट्या सहस्रमयुता ददत ॥ RIG VEDA 8/21/18 
By the way the Vedas have the power of overriding all other texts in religious matters. It is the supreme court of Hinduism. The matter stands settled.
But the sly does not and can not do so and very slyly misses mentioning any Shloka numbers. He knows no one is going to read all the Puranas to see if such lies are there or not, here is the trick. Now let me tell you that all the talk of the Puranas mentioning the sly as an idiot was just to show how this trick works.
Also it be remembered that we can endure insults on us but not on our Progenitor, who as a matter of fact is also a Deity for the rest of Hindus, and everyone is this world is aware of the reactions that we Hindus are capable to giving when it comes to our religion and our Gods.
Do not provoke us.
Nikhil Srivastava 13:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: This should not be repeated 

message: The varying status of Kayastha within Hindu caste system is of great academic curiosity to Indian sociologists. Kayastha is supposed to belong to Shudra varna and is seen to provide example of gradual upward mobility of a caste within Hindu caste system on account of legitimately gained prosperity and influence. The claimed status of Kayastha as a caste within Hindu caste system varies from region to region. 1 
Kayastha as a caste ... descent. 
Puranas which mention Kayastha as a caste are not very old and deal with castes of a particular region. They mention Kayasthas as Shudras. Brhadharma Purana and Brahmavaivart Purana dealing with castes of Bengal do not mention Kayastha at all though they are comparatively recent creations. They mention however Karana as a writer Shudra caste. According to Vyas Smriti again, they are Shudra; Vallacharita puts them under newly created SatShudra subcategory of Shudra; according to Usanas Samhita, Kayastha has same origin as barber. The earlier stated theory that Kayasthas are descendents of Chitragupta and are born of Brahma's body is mentioned in Padma Purana. However status of Chitragupta himself is not that great in Hindu scriptures. According to Acharatantra, Chitragupta's father Masisa was born of Brahma's foot. According to Jatimala of Agni Purana, Chitragupta was son of Kayastha and a great grandson of original Shudra. In Skandpurana (Pravas 123), Chitragupta was son of Kayastha Mitra. 2,3
The rise of Kayastha as community ... from earliest Muslim conquests. Kayasthas attained ... British government of India. Kayastha has been ... in government matters. 
In studies carried out in 19th century, Kayastha caste was found to admit people of other castes within its caste fold. Some studies consider Kayastha to be a mixed caste. As any Hindu, they deeply cared about their social status within Hindu caste system and raised their perceived status gradually by varios means. Studies noted them to be notorious for drinking freely in 19th century, but able to address this issue through caste conferences. One legend believed by some Kayasthas of Bengal traces their origin to 5 menial servants of those Brahmans of Kannauj who were summoned by king Adisur of Bengal to perform certain Vedic ceremonies. To elevate the perceived caste status, many Kayasthas took so called Sacred Thread like many other eagers when Brahmans in beginning of 20th century began performing Upanayan for anybody on payment of some fee which itself gradually reduced from a gift of 100 cows in 1904, 14 cows in 1920 to few rupees later.1,2
Thank you
125.17.142.34 16:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Material

message: The article, written by a brother Kayastha, is very appealing to the intellect.
Since the thing has come to pure logic, let me use a little bit of it.
We all understand that caste is linked to our genes and upbringing, the two vital factors that makes us what we are.
I very well understand that most people today wouldn’t believe what the Vedas have to say, yet that is wherein the castes have there roots. So, even if you don’t believe them-  To solve a matter of caste, you got to take their help.
Their authority in this matter can’t be challenged, it overrides everything else.
चित्र इद राजा राजका इदन्यके यके सरस्वतीमनु । 
पर्जन्य इव ततनद धि वर्ष्ट्या सहस्रमयुता ददत ॥ RIG VEDA 8/21/18 
Let’s look what can logic bring us to, if we go to the past.
Kayastha by profession were into the profession of writing. Now, in ancient India, Sanskrit was the state language so a knowledge of Sanskrit was must for them. Also, in the initial stages, writing was a whole lot bound to governance and religion, both of which needed a person to be of noble birth.
Also the Kayastha were granted land by then Hindu Kings, a privilege enjoyed by Brahmins. Historical proofs in form of plates written to mark such occasions have been found.
Kayastha Kings are found in ancient history(what many call mythology) and historically noted times. They being preffered as ministers can not be disputed (again, you know these can be enjoyed only by a man of noble birth). In fact, this led to bad blood between the Kayasthas and Kashmiri pandits, as described by Kshemendra in Rajtarangini. In this book, many an insults were inflicted on the Kayasthas but never was a question raised on thier being of high birth, for Kshemendra was doing his duty of taking the part of his fellows but never committed the sin of insulting the Gods.  
Now, let me see what is the social position of the Kayasthas today:
They are the hardest hit because of government policies of reservation in educational institutes and government offices.
The Indian government considers them an UPPER CASTE. At least that’s something more credible to on than a stray anonymous wikipedia ID questioning and maligning the Kayasthas.
The Kayasthas are the only caste other than the Brahmins(if they are not considered one) to perform religious rites and sacrifices (thanks to ‘the God of Justice’ connection.)
Now, comes the question of their being Brahmins or not.
Learned Brahmins all over India consider the Kayasthas as Brahmins. (Except, it seems, in Bengal- thanks to the ‘Divide and Rule’ policy of the new rulers of India then, whose strongest hold was Calcutta and Bengal saw some of the finest applications of Machiavelli’s principles and experiments on spreading of an Empire)
Caste, what’s their?
A good example to illustarte this is Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (founder and developer of the Transcendental Meditation technique and related programs and initiatives, including schools and a university with campuses in the United States and China). He was the secretary of Swami Brahmananda Saraswati,the Shankaracharya (from 1941 to 1953) of Jyotir Math, located in the Indian Himalayas. Maharishi is a Kayastha and his real name is Mahesh Prasad Varma. Atleast the Shankaracharya can be assumed to have enough knowledge of caste and not to let a non-brahmin to be his secretary.
Also, a few links to some Brahmanic sites will be helpful to prove these facts.
* Vedah.net, which presents a list of the main sub-divisions of Brahmins, lists the Kayasthas as one of the 31 main sub-divisions of Brahmins. Vedah.net
* Kamat.com puts forward a comprehensive list of more than 50 Brahmin Communities in India, the Kayasthas are also listed. Kamat.com
* The Sanskrit dictionary at Hindunet.org defines ‘Kayastha’ as follows:
ka_yastha, ka_yata a man belonging to the writer-caste; a tribe of bra_hman.as whose employment is writing (Ka.)(Ka.lex.) Sanskrit Dictionary at Hindunet.org
There is also a marked similarity between the life styles of Brahmins and Kayasthas of North India (especially of the Gangatic planes). These two have many a surnames in common and also inter-marry.
30 Nov., 2007  
Nikhil Srivastava (talk) 20:29, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Logic 

message: I moved it to avoid fighting on main page.
This is not my view. I am a true Kayastha.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shudra Status and Non-Shudra Claim
Since late 19th century AD, officials, anthropologists, and Indologists who took interest in caste aspect of Indian society had/have studied Kayastha community and its agitation for raising its caste/Varna status (in addition to similar study of other communities). Result is that there is enough information available on present and past of Kayastha along with those of other castes in their works. 
See the discussion page  discussion and old wiki page rise of kayastha regarding some of factual inaccuracies in this page. Kayasth appears to be a caste under Shudra category, and Chitragupta himself a Shudra, in Hindu scriptures.
For not initiated readers, Shudra is the status assigned in Hindu scriptures to a large number of communities. These scriptures and hence such assignments reflected views of Brahman community (who are of highest caste/Varna according to Hindu scriptures created by them). These views are world outlook, not confined to believers in Hinduism. In fact, anyone who is not one of three higher Varnas - irrespective of his religion, color, nationality and so on- is a Shudra. See page 24 of [Asok Mitra,11]
For a community that follows Hindu religion but is considered Shudra, it is a dilemma whether to accept this assigned status. Since there is enough abusive preaching/sermon in Hindu scriptures that denigrates an individual of Shudra status, these communities make conscious effort to shed off their Shudra status. This denigration includes everything: from judicial treatment, manners, sex to food. page 22 of [Asok Mitra, 11]
While living inside Hindu society, practical way of avoiding denigration by people believing in Hinduism is avoiding detection of oneself or the community as Shudra.  This leads to impersonation and aping of Hindu Varnas which are assigned higher status in these scriptures. This process of impersonation and aping is what Mr M.N. Srinivas has called Sanskritization. Many of Shudra communities do everything, often in an organized manner, in this process of impersonation and aping which leads to change in their customs, eating habits, and so on. This is done in order to make claim of higher Hindu Varna origin.  
Calling a community a Shudra under Hindu caste system cannot be morally or otherwise wrong. Shudra status is just the view given in Hindu scriptures about all who do not belong to certain communities. Even if a community is not a Shudra, calling it Shudra may be a mistake but cannot be an offence: note that almost every foreigner is a Shudra in view of Hindu scriptures. page 24 of [Asok Mitra, 11]
Below are excerpts from the book Peasant and Monks in British India, Chapter 2 available online:
“
By the late nineteenth century Kayasths had begun organizing a movement to reject their ascribed shudra status in favor of a kshatriya one; by the early twentieth century, many others—particularly Kurmis, Koiris, Kahars, and Goalas—followed the Kayasth lead (although each utilized distinct arguments) and defined for themselves similar kshatriya identities.”
Below excerpt from same source highlight importance of wearing Sacred Thread in the process of Sanskritization: 
““a visit to any of the akharas of Ramanandi bairagis will convince that Sudras of all classes are as freely admitted and invested with the sacred thread as the twice born.”[113] 
Investiture with the sacred thread conferred, by definition, elite “twice-born” status and was theoretically reserved for vaishyas, kshatriyas, and brahmans. By performing this ceremony on behalf of shudras, the Ramanandi sampraday (or some in the sampraday) effectively undermined the hierarchy implicit to caste through the adroit application of varna ideology. The practice of sacred thread investiture in Ramanandi akharas should ultimately be understood in the context of the kshatriya identity movements of the early twentieth century, inasmuch as it encapsulates in a single ritual the entire thrust of the kshatriya campaigns. Lala Sita Ram’s assertion of Ramanandi progressivism in this regard would suggest that the sampraday was involved, at least tangentially, in the process of varna reidentification. It should be added that the willingness to countenance varna distinctions in monastic recruitment and training and the recognition of the varna systemics implicit to sacred thread investiture as a strategy for shudra social advancement are both entirely consistent with the essentially Ramanuji position expressed by Sita Ram in his reaction to Farquhar’s 1920 presentation of Ramanand. ““
The process of Sanskritization has caused almost all communities under influence of Hinduism to find some character in Hindu scriptures to identify with, to legitimize their claim of being upper caste. In fact, many of them have invented up stories and better names for their castes in this process, and prefer these names rather than traditional ones. Please also see wiki pages on kurmi, yadav, gujjar, jat, ahir, maratha and other castes. The connection between Chitragupta and Kayastha may be  also similar. The present community or group of communities known as kayastha adopted this Kayastha name in near past. And as mentioned in references, Hindu scriptures who mention Kayastha primarily mention it as Shudra. Though Chitragupta is the character identified by these communities to relate with, Chitragupta himself appears to be a Shudra in Hindu scriptures. See the details with references to Hindu scriptures in page 36 of [Asok Mitra,11].
Courts in British India also passed judgment on status of Kayastha within Hindu caste system since Hindus were governed by Hindu laws. In a 1916 case, Calcutta High Court judged that Kayastha of Bengal are Shudra. Interestingly, issue of its status was again later considered by Justice Jwala Prasad, himself a Kayastha, in a 1926 case and he held that Kayastha of Bihar are not Shudra but Ksatriya. (See .The online available page of this article at the link starts with mention of the memorial of Kayasth protesting their classification as low-caste).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rollynigam1980 (talk • contribs) 16:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Not my view. Rolly

message: Kayasthas are only called as such in North India (including East and West India). However, there are Kayastha-like communities in South India, such as the Pillais of Tamil Nadu, the Menons of Kerala, and the Reddys of Andhra Pradesh. Is there any evidence to link these castes with the Kayasthas of the north? 71.124.55.53 (talk) 01:10, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  South Indian Kayasthas