Talk:Turkey/Archive 12

message: I am going to pass this article based on the following criteria:
#It is well written.: It is VERY well written.  The prose is easy to understand and flows very nicely!
#It is factually accurate and verifiable.: It is with regard to GA threshold: That is all assertions either challenged or likely to be challenged are referenced.  This article is close to FA status, but further referencing is needed to meet the FA standard for referencing.  See below for some more tips before you take this to FA review...
#It is broad in its coverage.: Boy is it ever.  This is FA material if I ever saw it!
#It follows the neutral point of view policy. With a nation so close to many of our cultutal and philosophical crossroads, it would be east not to be NPOV.  This article seems to do a VERY good job of addressing all issues, even those that could be controversial, in a sensitive and yet comprehensive manner.
#It is stable Looks like the only changes are improvements, and there does not seem to be any contentious edit wars...
#It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.: I spot checked the images included and they seem to be in good order WRT liscencing.  Please double check EVERY image before going to FA as rules of liscencing images are very stringent there.
If you are going to take this for a Featured Article Review (and I STRONGLY encourage you to do so... I will endorse it!) then please consider the following checks:
*All assertions of fact (not just those deemed "controversial") should probably be referenced.  This is nearly done here, and should be easy to pick up what you missed, things like Historical dates, geographic information, etc. etc.
*All images need to be double checked to insure they ALL meet proper guidelines for inclusion and compatability with GFDL/CC etc.
*There's a typo in the refs section.  One of the dates is missing a digit.  No biggie, but you might as well fix it.
Anyways, congrats, and let me know on my talk page when you nominate this for FA.  Like I said, I will endorse its promotion if it looks as good as it does now! --Jayron32 03:53, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks!!!! Made me smile after a long stressful day. I will fix whatever is necessary to make it FA. Cheers! Baristarim 06:52, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Congratulations to all contributors and to Baristarim who initiated and undertook most of this effort. Thanks for the review Jayron! Atilim Gunes Baydin 18:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Yea wonderful job Baristarim :) Its been really good that you've been working on this article for so long. We all really appreciate it :) -- WiiVolve 11:48, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: GA PASSED!!!

message: Hi, during last October, I created and uploaded the map :Image:Europe_location_TUR2.png to match the then newly launched map style used by Turkey's immediate neighbors (part of the "Europe location" map series created and maintained by User:David Liuzzo). The "Europe location" map collection is recently updated (see :Image:Europe_location_ITA.png as an example), and unfortunately on the map depicting Turkey in this new series, :Image:Europe_location_TUR.png, the country is half covered with a legend. This last update made :Image:Europe_location_TUR2.png obsolete, as its design is no longer shared with any other country article. The other map suggested by David Liuzzo, :Image:Asia location TUR.png also suffers from not following any established style and is very oddly cropped.
For now, I'm replacing the map with :Image:LocationTurkey2.png, one of the two main designs currently in use. The article can also switch back to the veteran green :Image:LocationTurkey.png, which has less detail. Regards, Atilim Gunes Baydin 05:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we not get David Luzzo to move the legend to the left for the Turkey map? --A.Garnet 13:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I still haven't talked with him, but from some of his comments on his user talk page on Commons, and the fact that he nominated :Image:Europe_location_TUR2.png for deletion , it looks like he is not happy to see his design used on this article and he only intends it to be used only when a country is wholly on the European continent. Actually, I sense that he purposefully put the legend there to prevent the design from being used by Turkey, Armenia, and Georgia, as it also conveniently covers the vague European boundaries in the Caucasus. But that's just my guess. Atilim Gunes Baydin 16:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Locator map

message: Pop the champagne! Baristarim 20:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent stuff, good effort. Great to see another Turkish related article at FA. Whats next? :) --A.Garnet 20:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great news! Congrats! --Free smyrnan 21:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Baristarim, it is your right to drink all the champagne. Victory! Deliogul 21:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Congrats to Baristarim and all, who contributed to this result! CeeGee 07:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tebrikler, Baris abi! Finally it is concluded! Caglarkoca 11:23, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Tebrikler & congratulations to all contributors..! :) --Xasf 11:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This was like a dream when I started editing Wikipedia in 2005 and it is mostly achieved by the complete dedication of Baristarim. So does any of you have a suggestion for the date of main page appearance (Wikipedia:Today's featured article)? I mean, it could perhaps coincide with a special anniversary for the Republic (the closest one seems to be April 23), or do you want it to make the appearance as soon as possible? Thanks for the champagne! Atilim Gunes Baydin 16:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As an important issue, I checked the suggested intro for the main page appearance, by Baristarim (Wikipedia:Today's_featured_article/requests#Turkey) and it's not as good as I expected (for this brilliant article). I specifically don't like the "one of the most populous of the Middle East" part, and it doesn't make sense to focus on this "most populous" and "Middle East" issue, when there is no mention of the European Union candidacy and accession negotiations (that's the primary issue in Turkey's government, politics, economy, reforms, and almost everything else). Regards, Atilim Gunes Baydin 16:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict) I filed a request this morning, and I said no particular date since nothing came to my mind. I suppose that if there are any proposals, I can modify it. Thanks a lot by the way, and I am just glad that I could help; It was also like a dream when I first came to Wikipedia :) And it was really sad that many of us were spending time in the talk page and on the article since the article's state was leading to a lot of disputes and POV problems. Many of the references in this article as it is can also be used to develop other related articles. I just thought that if WikiProject Turkey was ever going to be doing some serious work, we needed to start from the beginning with a solid main country article which will be the main article to englobe other Turkey-related articles in a clear hierarchy. And, by the way, it feels good to be discussing the date of a FA appearance rather than some hardcore political dispute for a change :)) Baristarim 16:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Hmmm.. You are right.. It was way too late when I prepared that entry and couldn't put too much thought into it. It can still be modified, the next round of selections won't be for another week. Baristarim 16:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Congratulations everyone -- WiiVolve 10:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  FA!!! 

message: Do we have any progress on a proper map? From what i understood the current map is a temporary measure until we sort out something more consistent with other maps on Wikipedia, any news on this? I think there is a more urgent need to sort this considering its FA status now. Thanks, --A.Garnet 01:16, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can say that the current map is rubbish. I love the older European continental map. Deliogul 12:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: True. The problem is that this seems to be a wider Wikipedia thing that is affecting the maps of many country articles, so we are kind of waiting the resolution of the problem at a wider level. I think Atilim tried to contact the mapmaker for further clarification, but there is still no news. If there is still no news of a new brand of maps (that are supposedly being prepared), then we should revert back to the older European continental map soon.Baristarim 12:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is currently no change in the situation. Since it seems no one likes the current map and it's not like there is a consensus for one definite map style (I mean, overall in Wikipedia), I'm changing the map back to :Image:Europe location TUR2.png. Note that the map is currently nominated for deletion in Wikimedia Commons, but I do not believe the result will be deletion. Please feel free to change it back, if this poses a problem for the FA status. Also, if you have any suggestions for a new map (style, layout, everything) please share it with me and I'll do my best to create a better map. Regards, Atilim Gunes Baydin 16:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi again, my last stance is to go with :Image:LocationTurkey.png. Regards, Atilim Gunes Baydin 00:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Europe location map is the best the rest look very bad. Nareklm 00:38, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There was another round of edit-wars in all country articles about the maps... Baristarim 07:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, the beloved map comes back :) Deliogul 22:19, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map situation 

message: Human rights is a central issue mitigating against Turkish EU accession, as well as Orhan Pamuk trial and others against Turkish intellectuals and HR activists. I suggest that a Human Rights sub-section is needed - a short paragraph with all the relevant links. The issue is too important to be lost in the text. To those concerned, IMHO such a sub section is not 'anti-Turkish' (as defined in the Turkish Constitution) but reveals the HR movement in the country. Politis 23:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  We know what human right means for you... Protecting terorist and murders.. Turkey has the best human right.. For the terorists, I wish to kill them all myself.. See ass hole of World 'Belgium', they are protecting murderers, because of human rights (murder of Sabancı 'Fehriye Erdal' is living in Belgium.). Pardon me but get your human right and put it somewhere sun doesnt shine!!. You think we think to join Europen Union right?. No we dont want to join. First read the history then you will understand why.. Because we disgust Europe.. Go away!!. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.101.5.191 (talk) 22:39, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

text: As for sub-sections, pls see other FA country articles like Canada, India, Australia etc. The structure of the article was copied from them. There shouldn't be any sub-sections. Again don't forget that the article is an overview of the whole country, not one particular topic. It is not the article about the TR-EU accession :) the accession process is not the only thing that needs to be known about Turkey. It is a main issue in foreign relations, but that's it. There are also other areas that need to be covered: economy, geography, culture, history, military, politics etc. The whole Ottoman years is talked about in a paragraph, talking about the case of Orhan Pamuk wouldn't make sense - particularly since the charges were annulled to begin with. It is already mentioned in their respective articles. It is all about context. :) Baristarim 00:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

text: By the way, this doesn't make sense "such a sub section is not 'anti-Turkish' (as defined in the Turkish Constitution)". I rewrote the Turkish Constitution article, is there any mention of human rights being anti-Turkish?? :) I think that you are a bit fuzzy about the subject and I am guessing that you are talking about a particular article in the Penal Code that penalizes acts of overtly insulting Turkishness. They are not the same thing. And its jurisprudence and ramifications are still not clear. Orhan Pamuk was the editor in chief for one day of a major Turkish newspaper just two days ago, as a gesture by the newspaper. There is no anti-Orhan Pamuk hunting going on that you are making it out to be :) Don't get lost in the hype generated in the West about this sort of stuff.Baristarim 00:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Human rights

message: :The text reads, "By September 18 1922, the occupying armies were repelled and the country saw the birth of the new Turkish state"... In fact, there was only one army that was defeated, the Greek army. 
:Greece re-emerged as a state by becoming the first people to defeat the Ottoman Turks and establish their own country; and Turkey became a Republic - the last country to emerge out of the Ottoman Empire - by defeating the Greeks. Now that, is symetry. Politis 23:21, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Umm, not quite true. I see what you mean, but the Greek army was the last one to leave the territory of what is now Turkey. I think that's what you meant. Take a look at Turkish-Armenian War for example. There were also French, British and Italian troops in Istanbul until the Treaty of Lausanne for example, not to mention in various parts of Anatolia between 1918-1922, and etc etc.. :) It is quite a long story.. Baristarim 23:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: September 18 1922, Turkish forces entered Izmir, the last stronghold of the Greek forces. Actually the Greek army was not the only one Politis. You know, British were controlling Istanbul and Eastern Thrace but because we are talking about a specific date, you are right. Also, Greek people weren't the first nation to try it (it was Serbia) but the first nation to achieve it. Take care, Deliogul 23:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 1922, just the one army

message: Turkcell Super League article is choosen as the football collaboration of the week! Please help expanding the article. Oy atanlara büyük teşekkür. Deliogul 14:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good.. I left a note in the talk page of WPTR as well. By the way, WPTR pages have been undergoing some changes lately. Any interested editors are welcome to take a look, particularly at the [] and article drives. Baristarim 09:56, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zaferrr! 

message: By the way, the FA earned the Wikimedia foundation 25 USD in donations  :) I had forgotten to mention this along the way; I actually ran into it right after the FA when I was perusing through some older discussions at WP Countries and contacted the user who made the offer before it was too late... Baristarim 02:18, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bounty 

message: A mistake in the map of the Turkish provinces (Image:BlankMapTurkeyProvinces.png.) Just off Edirne Province it includes the island of Samothraki; it is on the top, left hand side of the map. Needs to be removed for accuracy - it does not come under any Turkish provice :-)
:Baristarim, I found the reference to 'anti-Turkish' activities mentioned above. I actually meant the crime of 'insulting Turkishness'(!). Where does it stand now days? For instance, Hrant Dink was charged with it and received a 6 month suspended sentence. Politis 21:59, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Case law (jurisprudence) is still being established because the law is fairly new, and the cases have to go before the High Court of Appeals for it to clarify its interpretation. By the way, you said that it was the Turkish constitution, that's why I had asked. Baristarim 22:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, I could not figure out by whom the notice about Samothraki was added to the page and I don't get what you people are talking about under this heading :). After double checking the map again, I don't see Samothraki painted orange (I assume :Image:Europe location TUR2.png was referred to). Are you perhaps mistaken because Gökçeada / Imbros? Atilim Gunes Baydin 23:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks Baris. I assume it is not in the constitution then. But it's a strange, if not challenging offence to understand, especially since there are presumably no specific clauses defining Turkishness. Gunes, I think the designer of the map confused Gokceada/Imbros for Samothraki and Tenedos for Imbros. Tenedos is, in fact, too small to appear on the map; make sense :-? Politis 00:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why haven't I noticed the reference to BlankMapTurkeyProvinces.png? Was it there before my first reply? You were right, Samothraki was accidentally included and I corrected the map now. I guess better late than never. Everyone please accept my apologies for the mistake (note: I made that map). Atilim Gunes Baydin 22:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Map of Turkey includes Greek island

message: I'm removing the following addition made by Tedblack:
:In the early Ottoman state (1259) the word Turk was used as a derogatory term for the lower classes by the ruling elite 
The source doesn't say that, at least not specifically about the "early" Ottoman period. As far as I know it may partly have been true for some later times. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact I had thought it was me who had reverted it - you beat me to it. "Turk" also meant Muslim in Europe. This is the academic etymology of the word "Turkey" - not the "history of the word "Turk"". That user is blatantly disrupting the article by adding false inflation figures, comparing the Turkish youth to the Nazis etc. Ted (or GreekWarrior or etc), if you have issues with Turks, please take it somewhere else. Thanks. Baristarim 18:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

text: What part of this is hard to understand: " the inflation has dropped to 8.2% in 2005, and the unemployment rate to 10.3%" reffed by an accessible World Bank release ???? You are adding an unaccessible figure and expecting us to buy it in the light of this? Whatever :))) That section is for the academic etymology of the word "Turkey" - not the "history of the word "Turk"". Please cease your blatant disruption of that article and go do something more useful. Thanks. Baristarim 18:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The figure quoted by the World Bank release covers only the last year. For economic surveys of a country -- as any economist knows -- a more accurate figure is a five year average. I am sure there are years when any economy has outstanding macro figures (for example lets pick Greece GDP growth just before the 2004 Olympics); but to avoid the impact of short term measures (monetary tightening is a good example for Turkey) a five year average should be used. You should get used to constructive debate instead of unilaterally imposing aggressive edits. --Tedblack 10:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I just learned what Turk means in the early stages of the Ottoman Beylik in Hist214 lecture :D It means the majority of the Seljuk people who came to Anatolia but it's not about the roots. It is more like saying Muslim to someone. The term generally was used by non-Muslims at 13th century. There is a one more little detail. For example when a Byzantine soldier says "Turks are coming", he basically mentions the army of Ottomans which was mainly Muslim but there were many warriors from different beliefs and nations too. It is hard to see the picture but it is something like that. See you, Deliogul 15:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tedblack's addition about "Turk"

message: There has been a small question that I have been pondering for a while and that is how to define AKP under the government section. It currently says "Islamic conservative AKP". Can anyone think of any other way of paraphrasing it or should we just leave it as it is? Islamist? Only conservative? It seems a bit weird on a closer academic look since in a predominantly Muslim country any conservative party is bound to be Islamic and in a Catholic country, well, Catholic. It might be too strong to call it "Islamist" since that word is generally associated with Mullahs et al in English, but "Islamic conservative" doesn't sound too right for one reason either. "Religious conservative" sounds weirder I suppose. So should we modify or leave it? Baristarim 05:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think AKP is similar to German CDU. See you, Deliogul 15:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If there are no objections, I will remove "Islamic" and simply leave "conservative". I know that AKP has religious agenda (of which I personally am not happy with), but from an objective view I think that it is a given that in a predominantly Muslim country any given conservative party would be Islamic-based. It just seems redundant, that's all. Obviously the only counter-argument is that Turkey is a secular country, but there are no parties which advocate Christian conservatism, so I think that it will not pose a problem at that level. Baristarim 10:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps "Conservative party with Islamic roots". --A.Garnet 10:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  AKP 

message: While surfing, I recognized that in Germany and Greece articles' infoboxes, there are seals of Berlin and Athens. Should we include the seal of Ankara and Istanbul as capital and largest city?--Ugur Olgun 10:44, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have good images... Why not? Deliogul 15:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seal of Ankara and Istanbul 

message: Can somebody find the coordinates for the Grand National Assembly of Turkey (TBMM) and change the current coordinates that are on the infobox? The current coordinates refer to somewhere in Istanbul, not Ankara, which is the capital. Maestro 19:58, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The geographical coordinates for the capital are wrong! 

message: What do you think about referring to this article in the etymology part? Talking Turkey: The Story of How the Unofficial Bird of the United States Got Named After a Country--Charlesriver 19:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, I remember reading that same article last year and at last gaining a clear understanding of this country / bird issue. That's very useful information and I won't oppose parts of it being mentioned in this article, but don't you think that the Turkey (bird) article might be a more appropriate place for this? Atilim Gunes Baydin 19:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually.. Yes, you are right. Never mind:) --Charlesriver 19:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

text: When I was teaching English in Istanbul a year ago, I told my students Turkey was also the English name for the bird they called hindi. Many of them were furious and thought it was an insult. I then told them a lot of Indians were probably upset over what they called the bird. It was quite amusing! Anyhow, congrats again, Baristarim! I regret changing my FAC vote to neutral. Regards, --Jayzel 02:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkey and the bird 

message: The article cannot decide whether or not to include the serial comma — never has a mark of punctuated been subjected to so much ambivalence! I am in favor of implementing it everywhere, especially where the article looks ugly without it. At any rate, please decide and act accordingly.
Without the serial comma:
Turkey has manifested an Atlantist approach in many regional and international affairs since the Second Cairo Conference, its participation in the Korean War and its subsequent adhesion to NATO in 1952.
With it:
Turkey has manifested an Atlantist approach in many regional and international affairs since the Second Cairo Conference, its participation in the Korean War, and its subsequent adhesion to NATO in 1952. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brainmuncher (talk • contribs) 07:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Serial comma

message: I removed the sub-section from foreign relations. I see no reason why this deserves its own subsection. We could create sub-sections on many aspects of Turkish foreign relations, for example relations with the EU, Greece, the United States, Israel, all far more relevant to contemporary Turkish foreign policy than what happened 40 years ago. --A.Garnet 11:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We can mention the crisis in couple of sentences, we don't need a special section about it. See you, Deliogul 12:43, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cuban missile crisis 

message: |map_caption              = {{map_caption |region=on the [[Europe|European continent]]}}
I think it should, but why wasn't it there in the first place? --80.63.213.182 14:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Turkey isn't in Europe. --–  Emperor Walter Humala  · ( shout! · sign? ) 18:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then why are we trying to enter EU hahah :) Turkey is a Eurasian country, the actual continent which contains both so called Europe and Asia. Therefore Europe is only a political term. If Turkey can manage to satisfy EU rules, we will be a full part of that political term so you can't just say "Turkey isn't in Europe". See you, Deliogul 19:06, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Should this be added to the template?

message: After a crazy day on the front page, where this was one of the hard-fought issues, I think that level heads can agree that this issue deserves a sentence with a link, but not its own subsection. --Homunq 15:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, Armenian genocide thing is the biggest lie ever, it is a shame.. Give your strong proof and then you can add it. But there is no even a proof.. Can you show us anything that Kurts doesn't have but Turk have it?? In our identity card it is not written that you are turk or kurds... Also turk and kurds are getting married here... Kurds are talking in their language in streets and no one argues that... They have same rights as turks.. So what is the problem?? If the aim is to establish a kurdish country by taking half of Turkey, no one let you do it.. It is not freedom.. By the way if there is a tortune you are talking about, in Turkey tortune is a big crime, and some polices have been found guilty and arrested, don't worry my dear friend. Just prove something, prove it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.102.53.191 (talk) 19:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Armenian Genocide]]