Talk:Oeselians

message: 1. You write about Ingvars defeat in Estonia in the 7th century, as it was an actual fact. Yet you make it clear that Olaf Haraldssons (995 – 1030) victory in Estonia (1008) when he was 13 years old may be questioned because of his saga is disputed. Both stories are taken from the very same work, and both is written down by Snorre. If you questions Snorres account from the 11th century, then you surly want to question his accounts of the 7th century. However the battles against the Oeselians are well recorded by the skaldic poetries, and not something historians dispute. It is the gaps between the poems, and the happenings witch have no roots in poetry that is disputed. 
2. You dont record how the battle between the Oeselians and the Icelandic went, however according to the sagas, the Icelanders captured the Oeselians weapons in battle. 
3. Your sources are not up to Wikipedia standards, such as http://heninen.net/sigtuna/english.htm. It was the Novogorodians with the support of Karelians that raided Sigtuna. There might however have been some Estonian involvement. Strangely the Novgorodian chronicles never mention a raid on Sigtuna.
The list goes on. Ether you alter the article or I will have it removed by the terms of Wikipedia guidelines.
--Mattamatikk (talk) 03:00, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Higly biased article 

message: I'm a bit confused what "Oeselians" is supposed to mean here. Chronicle of Henry from 13th century uses that word, but why are events from other times and sources connected to Oeselians? Are they supposed to be any inhabitants of island Saaremaa or something like ethnic group? I see claim that "The Oeselians were known in the Old Norse Icelandic Sagas and in Heimskringla as Víkingar frá Esthland", but can't find it from given sources. Can somebody give exact page and quote where such claim is made?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minnekon (talk • contribs) 16:04, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a good point. It's possible to find sources that connect Oeselians to Taarapita and define Oeselians as "the island culture of Saaremaa", but I haven't found sources so far that define the time scope or "common academic usage" of the term "Oeselians" right now. Blomsterhagens (talk) 16:25, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

text: I think many of the mentions of "Vikings from Estonia" on this page from the Icelandic sagas, without a source that mentions the term "Oeselians" or connects them to Oeselians and/or "the island culture of Saaremaa", might be a case of WP:SYNTH. In which case the saga mentions might be better off on the Viking Age in Estonia page. Blomsterhagens (talk) 22:19, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

text: what do you think? Blomsterhagens (talk) 22:07, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: History of Saaremaa mainly 800–1350 AD is the actual topic here, the people are commonly called Saarlased or simply Estonians in sources, historical sources use several terms, none of which are used in current academic literature except for specific references to when the terms were used in the past. There is no evidence the term "Oeselians" was used before the 13th century, and most the article is set before that. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 10:19, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, indeed. I've started to clear the article up from the wp:synth claims. For most of the pre-13th century content, the correct place is probably Viking Age in Estonia. And then for what's left after the 13th century, it's not clear if the article should be a standalone article at all. Blomsterhagens (talk) 10:40, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition of Oeselians 

message: ... is a claim made by  that I have just reverted, since that's not what the source says (it's also the the wrong page number, it's on page 21...). What the source says is , that is a general comment about Estonia as a whole, with no mention of Ösel or Oeselians, and also no mention of which ethnicities that were living within the area of present day Estonia at that time. Which means that it doesn't belong here, especially not in a section that claims the Oeselians were Finnic, only in Estonian people.
: "At the same time, there is no doubt that the people who inhabited Estonia in the second half of the first millennium are the direct ancestors of modern-day Estonians". << How exactly are you interpreting this then? He is talking about all people who inhabited what is today Estonia. If he did "not" talk about people who lived in Saaremaa, it would have been mentioned. And it's an absurd concept to ignore one single group anyway. Blomsterhagens (talk) 21:27, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  See WP:SYNTH (which I pointed to in my edit summary). If the source doesn't mention the Oeselians you can't add it to Oeselians, the source also explicitly talks about "the people who lived in Estonia in the second half of the first millenium", that is 500AD-1000AD, not the 13th century. For all we know the Finnic-speakers that Henry of Livonia mentions could have been temporary visitors from somewhere else, and not people who were permanently living on Ösel (it's a comment about a single event in the 13th century, not a comment about what people was living on the island...). - Tom | Thomas.W  talk 21:34, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  We're talking about the lead, not the Language section. And if a source talks about all of modern-day Estonia, that source can be used for any area in modern day Estonia. It does not have to explicitly mention every single island or town separately. Blomsterhagens (talk) 21:37, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Regarding "Laula, laula, pappi" & all the sources mentioning it in regards to Oeselians - As Minnekon has already said - the job of a wiki editor is to assess if the source is valid. The job of a wiki editor is not to debate about the validity of contents / claims in a valid source. Blomsterhagens (talk) 21:46, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

text:   that edit was unfortunately deleted by another editor without comment again. Do you mind expanding your comment a bit on what you think about this? Thanks! Blomsterhagens (talk) 11:24, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It depends on how exactly we treat what he is saying. Obviously he says that Ancient Estonians are direct ancestors of modern Estonians, but he does make it clear that the paper in general in not concerned with Estonians’ ‘roots’. It is thus more of a personal opinion from Tvauri and ought to be attributed, maybe as a quote. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 12:19, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, any ideas where to place the quote in this article? Blomsterhagens (talk) 12:20, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  As Tvauri is an archaeologist, we could put it in the archaeology section. I think with a brief introduction the entire quote could be used, since it accurately portrays the mainstream view on the nationalist issue and there is need for a resolution to this. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 12:30, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

text:  Sounds good! Did the first version. Feel free to edit if you'd like Blomsterhagens (talk) 12:50, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

text:   as you now undid the quote, saying it should be paraphrased, could you please offer something that is better suitable in your mind. The quote was used, because the previous paraphrasing was deleted by another editor without explanation. Blomsterhagens (talk) 21:27, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Frankly, I do not really understand the relevance of the quote for this article since the quote says nothing specific about Ösel/Saaremaa/Oeselians, so I cannot help you with presenting it. The source might be of use in the article about Estonia and/or Estonians, but I really do not think it is useful here. --T*U (talk) 05:30, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:   It's relevant, because the Oeselians are the only single group that is currently mentioned separately on Wikipedia from the general Estonians. Without that part, it looks as if they were just "historical people" and then vanished. Blomsterhagens (talk) 07:17, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Then you need a source that explicitly mentions the Oeselians. If not, it will be WP:SYNTH. --T*U (talk) 08:59, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  The source explicitly mentions all people who lived in what is today Estonia during the viking age. A source does not have to mention every single town, village or commune separately for it to be used for them, if it explicitly says that it's about all people who lived on the lands of modern day Estonia. And the same source specifically mentions Saaremaa previously on numerous times. Or do you think that same source is also unusable for the inhabitants of Tallinn, just because it didnt mention Tallinn? The source explicitly talks about all inhabitants, which means it does not have to quote a register of every single region in Estonia. Blomsterhagens (talk) 09:38, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The sentence in the source is a passing remark highlighting the continuity of the population from then to now. It is a very general remark and cannot be deconstructed to any statement about any specific group. And it is definitely not true that it  like you claim. The general expression "the people" is not the same as "all people" and certainly not as "[explicitly] all people". --T*U (talk) 16:38, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  So who do you think he was talking about? Blomsterhagens (talk) 15:33, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a very general remark where he is talking about unspecified "people". For all I know, your great-great-great-...-great-grandfather is one of them, but not his childless brother. Enough said about this. --T*U (talk) 20:06, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. It's Fallacy of composition. Even though it sounds believable that at least part of Oeselians are ancestors of modern Estonians, we can't automatically assume that. Not all ancient people had continuous family lines. --Minnekon (talk) 19:06, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't agree with that interpretation. The source is a research report. He is being clear. He's talking about the "question of ethnos" and if you see the context of the source + the full quote, there's no ambiquity on what he means under "the people inhabiting....". What he clearly means is that it doesnt matter what the people were called back in the day - they are all ancestors of modern-day Estonians. What he's saying is a completely mainstream thing. There's no ambiquity here. Blomsterhagens (talk) 20:54, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

text:  Slightly off-topic, but still: Tallinn didn't exist during the "second half of the first millenium". There apparently was a hillfort of unknown age in the vicinity of where Tallinn was founded, but no town. - Tom | Thomas.W  talk 09:56, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sure, let's say Refaland then. Blomsterhagens (talk) 09:57, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

text:   & by the way - the book on viking age in estonia has 0 mentions of Oeselians. It mentions the "inhabitants of Saaremaa", not Oeselians. Most of this article itself is probably WP:SYNTH. The Icelandic saga references have 0 mentions of Oeselians. I will start clearing up this article of WP:SYNTH claims. Blomsterhagens (talk) 09:46, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The Oeselians are considered to be one of the direct ancestors of modern-day [[Estonians]]" ...