Talk:Michael Neumann

message: Note do not link the Michael Hoffman in this article to the wikipedia article about the director,  they are different people! Jbolden1517 17:07, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I'm throwing in the towel on this edit war.  If anyone cares I've archived the old talk Talk:Michael Neumann/4-25-06, but it amounts to an "is so" "is not" discussion so any admin should feel free to delete.  
OK hopefully at some point in the future someone decides to do something useful with this article.  If so here is where you stand (all dates refer to the main article):
#  The 06:33, 25 April 2006 contains links to Neumann's articles and links to articles about him which are NPOV.  That version of the article lacks any real analysis but it does provide a lot of useful non controversial information.   Its being censored without being read, but hopefully that won't happen to (or you are an admin and could do something about it)
#  The  13:58, 24 April 2006 is highly POV.  However it has a lot more information than the later edit
##  It provides some explanation about what specifically got him into the New anti-Semitism article 
## It ties this in with the Zionology article
##  It discussses his advocacy of political violence.  The links are pretty easy if you just do a websearch.  A Neumann and violence piece is going to end up bordering on original research 
##  It explains what the "council for peace and security" link is for.  Without it the link in the main article makes no sense
##  It provides the context of the CTR debate which obviously has to get covered.
# I have the start of a text version of a thesis tieing "What's Left" (1988) into the positions he takes a decade later Israel Palestine.  We can discuss by email if you want.  
#  To real do this guy justice requires a POV piece.  I think I may write it on wikiinfo so check there assuming you are coming back by say 5/31/06 or later.
Good luck with your work.  Jbolden1517 19:07, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Notes for next person (from author of 4/25/06 version) 

message: (moved from SV's talk page) In this edit of yours:  you removed the qualifiers on the categories which prevents them from appearing in the correct order.  Without the qualifiers, Michael Neumann will appear under the M category -- all the other individuals in that category only have last names that start with M.  I am adding them back, if you remove them please explain why Michael Neumann is being treated differently that most others.  --LuckyLittleGrasshopper 22:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry about that, Grasshopper. I noticed someone had removed an external link so I went into an older version and copied it from there. In so doing, I must have inadvertently copied the old cats too. My apologies. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:01, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cats 

message: I didn't remove anything. We had an edit conflict. It was your edit that failed to take. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section 

message: I removed that he is a professor of philosophy, because there's no indication on the faculty website that he's a professor, apart from in the North American sense of "teacher." Many, if not most, people use professor to mean someone who holds a chair. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:12, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are multiple references in articles to him having students, both from him and from the CJC and from campus newspaper.  He teaches.  jbolden1517Talk 02:40, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I wrote. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:41, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

text: What? Check out his department made faculty page:  -- it clearly lists him as "Professor of Philosophy". Can you point me to which website you were examining? Could you add it back in. --LuckyLittleGrasshopper 02:14, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (yet another edit conflict) Grasshopper reverted me, saying "see talkm" but then didn't leave anything on talk. This is not a North American website. We don't use terms according only to their North American meaning. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:44, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

text: LLG, could you please stop leaving notes about articles on my talk page? Article talk pages are for comments about articles. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 02:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did leave a comment on talk but jbolden1517 removed it -- check the history: . Anyways, check out the Wikipedia article on Professor and please explain why Neumann doesn't fit the category. If this continued to be a problem, we should take this to RfC because I really can't see where you are coming from. Thanks. --LuckyLittleGrasshopper 02:48, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I should add that if you go through the faculty pages some faculty are only described as "Associate Professor of Philosophy"  .  Thus this indicates the faculty is using the proper disambiguating form of professor to indicate tenure appointments.  --LuckyLittleGrasshopper 02:51, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Teaches philosophy 

message: Neumann is a contributor to Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair's 2003 collection The Politics of Anti-Semitism. The Politics of Anti-Semitism: Table of Contents, CounterPunch, accessed April 29 2006 
He has written on anti-Semitism and the Israel-Palestine conflict in several opinion essays published by the CounterPunch website/newsletter. Neumann, Michael. "What is Anti-Semitism?", CounterPunch, June 4, 2002 Neumann, Michael. "Criticism of Israel is Not Anti-Semitism, CounterPunch, December 30, 2003 Neumann, Michael. [http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann04042006.html 
"The Israel Lobby and Beyond"], CounterPunch, April 4, 2006
Neumann argues   that
"we should almost never take antisemitism seriously, and maybe we should have some fun with it. I think it is particularly unimportant to the Israel-Palestine conflict, except perhaps as a diversion from the real issues."  He then states that Israel's goal is the extinction of the Palestinian people, adding "True, Israel has enough PR-savvy to eliminate them with an American rather than a Hitlerian level of violence. This is a kinder, gentler genocide that portrays its perpetrators as victims."  Thus Neumann views Arab antisemitism as trivial in the larger context of the Israel-Palestine conflict: "Undoubtedly there is genuine antisemitism in the Arab world: the distribution of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the myths about stealing the blood of gentile babies. This is utterly inexcusable. So was your failure to answer Aunt Bee's last letter." He brings his argument to a conclusion as follows:  "In short, the real scandal today is not antisemitism but the importance it is given. Israel has committed war crimes. It has implicated Jews generally in these crimes, and Jews generally have hastened to implicate themselves. This has provoked hatred against Jews. Why not? Some of this hatred is racist, some isn't, but who cares?" 
In 2002, Neumann had an e-mail exchange with the Jewish Tribal Review, an anti-Semitic website. In his correspondence, he said “I should perhaps have said I am very interested in truth, justice and understanding, but right now I have far more interest in helping the Palestinians. I would use anything, including lies, injustice and obfuscation, to do so. If an effective strategy means that some truths about the Jews don’t come to light, I don’t care. If an effective strategy means encouraging reasonable anti-Semitism or reasonable hostility to Jews, I don’t care. If it means encouraging vicious racist anti-Semitism, or the destruction of the State of Israel, I still don’t care.”  After  the resulting outcry in the National Post and elsewhere,  
Neumann explained and defended these remarks on his Israel-Palestinian page .
In the context of the Israel-Palestine conflict, Neumann opines  that it is dangerous to label as anti-Semitic the conclusion that "Jews, generally, had some responsibility for war crimes and human rights violations." He writes: "The best way to reserve "anti-Semitism" as a term of condemnation is to define it as hatred of Jews, not for what they do but for what they are. It is to hate them just because they belong to a certain ethnic group. Foxman is right to suggest that you can be an anti-Semite without expressing any racist sentiments: Many anti-Semites confine themselves to expounding false claims about Jewish control. But you can also, without harboring anti-Semitic hate, criticize Israel and even the Jewish community for its failures."
Neumann takes the position   that support of Israel in the Israel-Palestinian conflict is against US interests: "Just imagine if the US stopped backing Israel and gave even moderate support to the Palestinians. Suddenly Islam and America would be on the same side. The war on terror would become a cakewalk. The credibility of American democracy would skyrocket in the Middle East." 204.210.35.48 23:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Israel-Palestine conflict]] and [[anti-Semitism]]

message: I removed the following "critique of Neumann" section:
*Ardeshir Mehta argues that Neumann fails 5 criteria of morality (like universality).  The Spineless Left
* Joseph Massad a well known Palestinian activist at Columbia argues that America's poor relations with the Arab world are primarily a result of anti democratic activities within individual countries, and thus would not be reversed by simply "changing sides" in the Jewish-Arab war for political control of Israeli territory.
* Wikipedia's discussion of New anti-Semitism contains a section on Michael Neumann
* Israel Shamir argues that Neumann's attempt to persuade American Jews will be unsuccessful and that the left should adopt a policy of orchestrating  Jewish political isolation in the United states.  Neumann does not seem to have either supported or repudiated this view.
* Canadian Jews News reports on possible student intimidation http://www.cjnews.com/viewarticle.asp?id=993
:Here is the reason.  First of all, it is not npov to have our own little critique section (do we have a praise section?). Secondly, here is my specific objection to each item above.
# The Mehta article is taken from an unpublished personal blog and is not a reputable source.
# Massad doesn't even mention Neumann, so this is not a critique of Neumann; rather it serves only to provide counterarguments. 
#Reference to discussion of New anti-Semitism does not belong in a  "critique of Neumann" section.
#The Shamir and CJC articles should be placed in the earlier section.  I'll try to do this.
I'll comment on the JTR addition later.
Precis 23:46, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  critique of Neumann removed  

message: BTW I notice there are links to Neumann's stuff.  I've organized Neumann's articles already.  If you look at the  version of the article you'll see his articles organized. jbolden1517Talk 01:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links 

message: The easiest thing is to have no Neumann quotes in the JTR section--then we can avoid the endless discussions about whether the quotes taken from a white power website are authentic or not, as well as the tedious discussions about whether the quotes are smears or valid characterizations of Neumann's views.  If someone puts the 5-line quote back in, then sure, a quote that Neumann used to directly defend against this 5-line passage can be placed back in for balance.  Simply quote his defense and stop there, avoid paraphrasing it by describing what you think is the context, otherwise you may give the "context" more credibility than it deserves. My own opinion is that his defense is nonsensical, although of course you disagree. Precis 14:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  jtr quotes 

message: This article was automatically  assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 23:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: Evidently there is need of a thorough review of the page. The original page seemed cocked to cite everything negative or ostensibly 'antisemitic' deducible from controversies surrounding Neumann. Rather than simply cleanse it, I went through the evidence and contextualised these accusations, in order to give what appears to be Neumann's public record in full on these issues. The anonymous editor takes this as a soapbox operation. To the contrary. If you are going to allow the page to mention very serious smears, you are obliged at least, of a living person, to quote him precisely so that the reader can get a precise idea of the controversy he was involved with. One could simply eliminate everything, no smears, no counter-defence. Phgao has tried to mediate, a middle way, but, I think, with an austerity that does not solve the basic problem. I don't think my own earlier text is anything more than a starting point, to be pruned, weeded, enriched as editors concur in doing so. A little discussion point by point would help. A further point, in his bio, mention of the fact he was Franz Neumann's son is not controversial. It is a fact, an important one indeed, and should be mentioned. I look forward to a discussion on how to improve the text.Nishidani 09:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Review 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110629133837/http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann0604.html to http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann0604.html
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090823063128/http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1148748 to http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1148748
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 9 external links on Michael Neumann. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060425200101/http://www.counterpunch.org/poas.html to http://www.counterpunch.org/poas.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060404105745/http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann12302003.html to http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann12302003.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060513222739/http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann04042006.html to http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann04042006.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060410051900/http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann10082003.html to http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann10082003.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060423082026/http://www.cjc.ca/template.php?action=itn&Story=381 to http://www.cjc.ca/template.php?action=itn&Story=381
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110724154433/http://www.jewishtoronto.com/page.aspx?id=45452 to http://www.jewishtoronto.com/page.aspx?id=45452
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060423082026/http://www.cjc.ca/template.php?action=itn&Story=381 to http://www.cjc.ca/template.php?action=itn&Story=381
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927230145/http://www.cjc.ca/template.php?action=itn&Story=391 to http://www.cjc.ca/template.php?action=itn&Story=391
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927230306/http://www.cjc.ca/template.php?action=itn&Story=499 to http://www.cjc.ca/template.php?action=itn&Story=499
*Added  tag to http://www.nationalpost.com/todays-paper/story.html?id=1520244
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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018)