Talk:Santos-Dumont 14-bis

message: We have a secion called "Conception, development, and initial tests" but no further information. After the initial tests than what? Further flights? Crashes? Does it still exist? Or was it destroyed? Rmhermen (talk) 02:05, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Is part of this artixle missing?

message: I couldn`t find any reliable source for the statement that Santos-Dumont "commissioned Voisin to help him construct an aircraft". Only source is a biography written by the prestigious Air Marshall Sir Peter Guy Wykenham. Need to see the sources for that. Did he research? Where? Anybody can write things - to prove it can be something MUCH more difficult. RobertoRMola (talk) 15:55, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a cited source, in a book published by a very reputable aviation publisher. So, a reliable source. Get it from a library if you don't believe me.TheLongTone (talk) 13:16, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure! He`s a reputable publisher and a prestigious writer. Period. It happens that the subject is extremely controversial - and sorry, nothing personal about that - but I do not believe in you or Sir Wykenham, since on the very same November 12, 1906 both gentlemen disputed the primacy of heavier than air machine: Voisin failed - Santos-Dumont did it. They were friends, yes. But contenders, in any aspect. And yes, I`m a skeptical, and internet and - specially - Wikipedia, provides just a little evidence of truth and sincerity, unfortunately. We need to be discerning about that. Sir Wykenham made a statement, a opinion. He didn`t provide us with real evidences of the fact. Everything will begin to be more meritorious when citation incorporate this fact. And, no, I will not buy ANOTHER copy of Sir Wykenham book - this will be useless (or IOW, talk about you know). Change back the edition. RobertoRMola (talk) 17:35, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Prestigious writer, reliable publisher....sound like  a reliable source. Given that the aviation world in Paris was very small I really fail to see why the claim is so implausible. These guys may have been rivals but they were all working towards a common cause, and I do not see that rivalry would prevent collaboration.TheLongTone (talk) 11:48, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been researching the topic for some time (unrelated to editing the Wiki) and unfortunately, like many other things related to Santos Dumont scholarship, there are serious contradictions involved. Contrary to what has been stated above, the Wykenham biography does not cite a source for this specific claim and (although it is a well sourced book) contains inaccuracies on many other points (including the notion that Henri Farman was in the Aéro-Club's follow car dropping plates to measure the distance covered, which is also incorrectly referenced in the "Operational History" section. The man dropping the plates was Jaques Faure, see Le Petit Journal Nov 25, 1906.) There are no contemporaneous allusions to Voisin having participated in the construction/design of the 14-bis. Voisin's own memoirs (Men, Women and 10,000 Kites) do not mention a collaboration with Santos Dumont... in fact it mentions the opposite: when Santos Dumont was building the 14-bis (between Jan-Oct 1906) Voisin was working with Louis Blériot on a competing plane (which is well documented on the Wikipedia pages for Blériot and Voisin.) Voisin was present on the trials of Nov 12, but with a competing plane built in partnership with Blériot (pictured in the background of the portrait image on this page.) Voisin in fact goes as far as expressing resentment in his memoirs at Santos' success that day when his own plane failed to take off. I can only guess at why Wykenham wrote what he did, I would say he got confused with some reference-- since Voisin was in fact the first person in Paris to build a box-kite glider from which the 14-bis took inspiration. The partnership that he describes also sounds reminiscent of the way Voisin describes his partnership with Blériot in his memoirs... Paul Hoffman's "Wings of Madness" (great book) repeats Wykenham's legend and again has no source (aside from Wykenham.) Anyhow, I'll leave this here for discussion and leave it up to someone with more Wikipedia experience to fix the actual page. 12.216.166.60 (talk) 21:02, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Voisin hired by Santos-Dumont??!! 

message: , Your edit does not improve the article syntax.
"although the nosewheel left the ground, it had insufficient power..."  
The nosewheel had not just insufficient power, it had no power and was never meant to.  The craft had power, the engine had power, but the nosewheel?  Please return the text to my edit. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 00:30, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Have fixedTheLongTone (talk) 09:01, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It may be unsourced but its a far from being a  contentious statement, I agree it's poor writing.TheLongTone (talk) 09:01, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dis-improved syntax 

message: Was  the flight of this aircraft at 2016 Olympics opening ceremony entirely simulated or real ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 22:59, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: in some images is possible to see that the replica was lifted by a crane. Erick Soares3 (talk) 15:49, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  2016 Olympics