Talk:2005 Cronulla riots/Archive 2

message: Surely at some point john howards prime-ministership has to be mentioned. There is a clear link between his rightist viewpoints: "We will decide who comes to this country and the manner in which they come" and the riots by young people. --Mjspe1 08:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Rightist viewpoints? Easy on. Just because you have "leftist viewpoints" doesn't mean his are wrong or lead to violence. He's voiced for an end to the violence. I'm sure you'll find them a lot more prominent. -   Gt 13:30, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: yes but we have a heading "a volatile environment". I assume that this section is to outline the culture in cronulla and wider australia at the time of the riots. Certainly you cannot deny that John Howard's rhetoric (whether right or left) has contributed to a "volatile environment". This rhetoric has contributed whether he meant it to or not. The simple fact that he condemed the violence doesn't mean that he didn't inadvertantly contribute to it... --Mjspe1 02:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: These would have happened even if Howard had been run over by a bus in 1996. Blaming him is just partisan hijacking. --RaiderAspect 12:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: John Howard's influence

message: I'm sure I'll be ignored here, but... isn't this Wikinews material?  There's far too much detail for an encyclopedia article, and some of the phrasing is blatantly breaking-news style, not encyclopedic.  Why don't you all go work on the Wikinews article about the riots? It's shorter than the Wikipedia article, and that's just wrong. Isomorphic 01:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It wouldn't say it's too much detail for an encyclopedia article, and besides it can always be sub-divided into multiple articles. If there is some badly phrased stuff then please either correct it, or tell us which particular bits you think can be improved so that we can reword it. As for Wikinews, the wikipedia and wikinews are under the same license I think, so this content can be copied to wikinews anytime someone cares to do it. -- All the best, Nickj (t) 01:44, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikinews?

message: * There were also unconfirmed reports a person having been shot; reporters said they heard gunshots near the Northie's Hotel, and that various youths had been seen carrying and threatening local residents with shotguns, automatic firearms and small submachine guns.
Can anyone confirm?  Regards, Ben Aveling 02:56, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I heard more than one shot while listening to the Sydney Cop Radio last night, and I think there's a mention of gunshots in a SMH article. -   Gt 03:07, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confirmation needed 

message: To whomever keeps posting crap on this very serious issue PLEASE at the very least try and get the spelling of this one word right. You've posted it like a thousand times you vandal.
Calm down , it was a typo.--CltFn 03:16, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  indiscriminently "assautling" people of Arab 

message: Vandalism by this user has not stopped for the last couple of hours. He constantly introduces his unsourced commentary on an alleged sexual assault, then goes further and links the unsourced assualt as the trigger for the riots.
He then vandalises and threatents more vandalism "STOP FRIGGIN CHANGING MY WORK YOU RETARDS!!!!!! I CAN PLAY ALL DAY!!!!!"
The he blanks the article.
Will someone please black his username and IP. Thanks. Al-Andalus 03:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: While you're at it, Al-Andalus - how about not deleting my sourced, relvant information regarding Lebanese gang activites? Practice what you preach. -   Gt 03:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: User [[User:Flying fox|Flying Fox]]

message: Please keep an eye on 2005 Sydney Civil Unrest; some users have been creating a Wikipedia:POV fork of this article there. That article should redirect to this one. Rhobite 03:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV forks 

message: I thought Lebanon was in the Middle East. Can someone fix this.--Greasysteve13 03:37, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Look ethnic? I am sick to death of this incorrect or incompleate use of the word "ethnic". However, I presume this was a more formal way of saying "wog".--Greasysteve13 03:25, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Middle Eastern and Lebanese"? 

message: there should be an emphasis somewhere in this article on the view that the behaviour on both sides was "un-australian" and that the majority of australians view these events with disgust.
im sick of hearing from yanks and poms about "oh your so racist down under..." etc.
to reaffirm this, the majority of australians of every ethnicity, race, culture, religion have publicly condemned the events.
as john howard said, these riots don't demonstrate and ingrained racism in australia, it just shows that theres a problem with gangs in sydney. ethnic gangs of white and middle eastern backgrounds fighting "turf wars".
: Mass chanting of "No more Lebs", and bashing anyone with dark skin, isn't racist? 203.122.226.161 07:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say that these riots are clearly not un-Australian. Since when was Australia an intellectual hothouse of art and culture. Never, we've always been a cultural dead end. Just these sort of things are likely to happen --Mjspe1 08:47, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Ouch. Touche, Mjspe1. misanthrope 14:56, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: It's race riots, but it's very, very isolated. This is happening in one single shire, which happens to be about the most racist spot in the country. This riot is not an example of "Australians are racist", it's "Southerland Shire is a racism hotspot". Google for '"sutherland shire" racism' (without the single quotes) if you don't believe me  203.22.236.14 09:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  un-australian. gang violence not race riots 

message: Can we keep it unbiased free of blame and simple? Leave it alone. -   Gt 04:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro

message: Hey, 203.109.224.206, listen up! Calling the "Bra Boys" "wannabes" is fine with your mates, but is not appropriate for Wikipedia. We are reverting your edits because they are inflammatory and biased. Stop wasting our time. Incidentally, it seems you are using a New Zealand ISP, so I don't see what the big deal is for you. DaveSymonds 04:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stop reinserting reverted edits without good reason! 

message: Whatever we put in the background, it's just background. It should come near the end of the article.  Before the references, but after pretty much everything else.  Regards, Ben Aveling 05:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I second that- surely the most critical thing is to actually start describing the events to hand, and any supplementary material by way of background which may be needed can appear afterwards, for reference.--cjllw | TALK 05:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  backwards article 

message: Some user has just deleted my "Continued Violence" section and written stupid statements. Could anyone please revert this?
I'll try to add more to the Continued Violence tonight.
Thankyou...
211.27.205.41 07:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism... 

message: OK, I've noticed about 7 edits in the past 2 hours from several users simply inserting pornographic images into the article, blanking it and typing stupid "obscenities." Doesn't this qualify for a lock for the time being? I mean, it's getting kind of hard to legitimately help when idiots keep editing every 5 minutes and mess up your work.
211.27.205.254 16:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pornographic Images/More Vandalism? 

message: This section is in need of a cleanup as it is hard to read. Breaking this section up some with subsections may help considerably. Just a suggestion -- SusanLarson New talk, Contribs)</sup></span> 07:06, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[2005 Sydney race riots#Continued violence|Continued violence]] 

message: The Bra Boys Surf Club are White Feather cowards.
Girls hand out white feathers to cowards that aren't willing to defend Australian way of life.
:In case you werent already aware, this page is for discussing the actual article itself. Remy B 09:00, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Rem, I'd suggest using : for commenting :) Jeoh 14:54, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I have wondered about that. Point taken :) Remy B 14:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The subject is relative to the story as the Bra-Boys have done a deal with the Lebanese and a prominent sydney motorcycle gang to stem the riots at their end, today.  The Bra-Boys surf club is a bunch of drug smoking thugs in my opinion, equivalent to the gangs they do deals with.  They're probably selling drugs too. Those that protested are heroes though. Druidictus 15:22, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, but I dont see how you calling them cowards adds anything to the debate over the structuring of the article itself. Remy B 15:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So you are saying that a debate can included a rating of the subject matter? 16:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  BRA BOYS, White-Feathers 

message: I feel Puberty Blues should be mentioned in the "See also" section. Recent newspaper articles describe it as not just as a book about surfing, but also about the violence of the surfing culture. The way the article currently reads, people could be forgiven for thinking there was no history of beach-related violence before September 11. Andjam 09:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see any reason not to, if you find it relevant. Was the film any good? :P Kyaa the Catlord 10:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I saw the film  Puberty Blues a year ago. There is a very strong description of the demarcation on the beach on which much of the film's key scenes take place - and I believe this is Cronulla beach. The main narrator talks of different groups occupying different sections of beach: Westies in one section, families in another, the cool kids up the end. It is clear there is much resentment if someone strays into the "wrong" section: something the lead characters themselves do to try and infiltrate the gang of cool kids. I would not be surprised if her VO also mentioned at least one racial group but I can't recall exactly what she said. Asa01 20:00, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: The film was shite. Still, it was better than The Year My Voice Broke. --Jquarry 21:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: "Surfies", as name suggests, are members of the subculture revolving around surfing and beach-going. The "Westies" (also called Bogans, Bevins, and various other names) are so-called because they live in the west of Sydney, mostly Anglo in ethnicity and generally a depressed socio-economic group. Think "white trailor-park trash", although of course that is an over-generalisation. They would come to the beach on weekends, as many Aussies do, and clashes with the Surfies would be inevitable. It should be noted that in many ways immigrants have replaced the "Westies" in terms of both geography and socio-economic status, although Westies still abound. --Jquarry 21:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Puberty Blues 

message: Americans would have no idea what "No Lebs" means. The caption should be explained more. Perhaps Wikipedia needs an article on Leb that does not refer to airports. MPS 15:29, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Leb" is slang for Lebanese, I'm sure that's easy enough to figure out when ready an article like this. I guess you put a little notice somewhere on the page, defining the term "Leb" if you wanted to, but I don't think it's that important. It's a stupid racist chant, like many others that don't make much sense to ordinary people. 211.27.205.254 17:02, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I added the caption anyways for ADD people like me who just read the pictures. MPS 18:47, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I care. . :)  I think it's important because it aids in understanding Australian culture. I had never heard of Wogs either, and reading the Wob article gave me insight into the tension between the Indians and the brits. I think I am going to create an article for Leb MPS 20:55, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Heard of Wop, but not Dago. I think racism and ignorance are going to be out there regardless of whether Wikipedia lists ethnic slurs. IOW, hiding the truth about what some people say won't stop people from saying things. Putting them in an encyclopedia doesn't approve of their words, but documents them. OTOH, if some racist person wants to come to wikipedia to learn how to creatively cuss out various people-groups, I suppose we are helping that person, but the same thing could be said for documenting school shootings. Yes, the crazies could use this information, but so can sociologists and historians. MPS 15:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

text:  You don't need to do anything. There is content developing in the Leb article that will likely get moved to Lebenese-Australian. Since it's wikified in the caption, curious people like me can learn more about Lebs by clicking the link. Carry on, then. MPS 18:13, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "No Lebs" 

message: Hey again, I just added some information about the ongoing violence in Sydney that has occured for a Second Night to my "Continued Violence" section. Also, I appreciate the help guys, but it seems someone has chopped a fair bit out my article just a while ago, and condensed everything a little too much. It all seems too general and not enough details to me. I think it needs to be a little less vague. I will try to edit it without adding any new information, just a bit more detail if thats OK?
Try to at least notify when you have made some corrections/changes.
Any problems post some replies...
Thankyou.
211.27.205.254 15:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I didnt cut the article down, but I agreed with it in principle. The article was going too in depth, the level of detail was unnecessary, the inclusion of a large number of minor nuances was more detracting than purposeful. At least thats how I thought of it. Remy B 15:46, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Are you aware you can sign up quite easily with the Sign Up link at the top right corner of each Wikipedia page? Here is a good reference. Also, you can indent your comments by using the : symbol (or :: for double intention, etc.), it just makes it neater and consistent with most other users. Remy B 16:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  ***UPDATE: Continued Violence.... 

message: I just added another section called "Fears of Further Violence" after continued violence as I felt it would be very appropriate to mention the long-term ethnic "stand-off" and tension between Anglo's and Middle Easterners and the fact that there's many signs of more trouble to come (SMS's, weapons, so on), so it is likely this will continue and fears of more violence should be asserted as a likely possibility.
Again, if anyone wants to check my grammar/structure go ahead. You may condense the section if you wish, but try to leave a level of detail in there, as it is a complex racial issue that cannot be explained to some average-joe with no knowledge of Australia, in 25 words or less. So I feel it requires a fair amount of text.
Again, if anyone wants to insert pictures in Continued Violence and Fears of Further Violence, it would be greatly appreciated and please do so. I am aware I can sign up as well, I will soon.
Thankyou.
211.27.205.254 16:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Except that, it is in the main simply not permissable under licensing terms to simply go about grabbing photos published by news agencies and inserting them into wikipedia articles- you would likely be in copyright violation if you did so. Care needs to be taken about the source and licensing info for any inserted image.--cjllw | TALK 23:11, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  ***UPDATE: Fears of Further Violence... 

message: "Other commentators have critiqued the unprecedented waves of non-European immigration and the ideology of multiculturalism, both of which have created a climate conducive to anti-Australian violence and terrorism." — Just what exactly is this supposed to mean? What is it based on? Where are the sources indicating that multiculturalism and non-European immigration are responsible for creating "a climate conducive to anti-Australian violence and terrorism"? - Quirk 19:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the paragraph as it was unsourced and POV. If someone wants to put it back please provide sources. - Quirk 19:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: "Pet cause" it may be for some, but sourced comments on this topic are relevant--but only if you believe that understanding the context that the rioting came out of is relevant (which I believe it is, regardless of one's view on multiculturalism). Squidley 18:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Non-European immigration and the ideology of multiculturalism" 

message: I'm just curious, how many people do we have actively working on the article at the moment. I feel this article could really be in much better shape and perhaps even suggested for a Feature Article, if it wasn't so "understaffed" I should say. I mean there's alot of vandalism, we take quite a while to add the latest news and updates about unfolding events, and it just appears to be of a lower standard.
Sorry if I sound like I'm whining for help, just curious as to the fact if we still have a "team" here, I've noticed the Australian User G or Gt isn't around as much and not much has been added to the article in last day. I mean this thing is going out of media coverage abit, and as a story loses coverage, it generally loses interest. But I think it's important and we should continue to keep this story upto scratch.
Replies welcome...
Thankyou.
211.27.205.254 19:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, it's a mess now.  But big events can only be covered properly with the benefit of hindsight.  Once it vanishes from the news, most of the vandals will vanish, and most of the disagreements as well. That's when we can whip it into shape, merge in the wikinews article, and start building a good explaination of the issues behind the events.  In the meantime, it's more a matter of trying to keep the best article we can.  Regards, Ben Aveling 20:43, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: this is the trend in wikipedia. I like to refer to it as Wikipedia:Recentism MPS 20:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many people do we have working on this? 

message: We still need to establish why this might be relevant.  Regards, Ben Aveling 20:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  These kids weren't even born in 1975. 

message: *A perception also exists amongst young Australians of Middle Eastern background that any crimes committed by "people of Middle Eastern appearance" are attributed by sections of the media to the perpetrator’s ethnic and/or geographical background, or their upbringing in a community which generally practises Islam.  
I could be wrong but I don't see support for this claim in that article, unless it's intended as an example of media attributing responsibility?  Nor do I see why we are talking about the attitudes of the victims in isolation from the attitudes of the perpetrators?
* Overseas commentators have noted the relative disparity in economic and social-cultural status of Australians of Middle Eastern background and its possible role in community sentiment. 
The linked article is January, last year.  It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the statement it should be supporting.  Again, I don't see why the economic status of the victims is interesting, especially when presented in isolation from the perpetrators?
We are still waiting for any evidence of involvement in Leb gangs in this.  However, the existance of Leb gangs seems to be being used as justification for arbitrary violence against anyone who looks Middle Eastern to a Cronulla surfie.  (A greek friend of a friend is avoiding central Cronulla for the next few days because "these guys can't tell the difference".)  
I have no objection to adding a discussion of anything that is sourced and relevant.  Why is stuff relevant?  Regards, Ben Aveling 20:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claims needing support and relevance 

message: Mr Trad said he did not know who was responsible for circulating new text messages, including one declaring war between Sydney's youths of Middle Eastern ethnicity and Australians.The new messages follow a round of similar ones sent last week, calling for retaliation after an attack on surf lifesavers at Cronulla on December 3."People who make messages like that are not helping the situation, in fact, they are the ones who are the real criminals in this," Mr Trad said.
From AAP via Yahoo! 
If he says he didn't send any messages to encourage the violence, then who did?
--Bushido Hacks 20:30, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: and your point is...? No doubt, Police Commissioner Ken Moroney, Prime Minister John Howard, and Gabonese President Omar Bongo would also deny circulating these messages, if asked. Why do you seek to impute that Mr Trad ought to know the source of these messages, or that he has some Svengali-like influence over the Australian Muslim community? He is but one community figure among many. --cjllw | TALK 00:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What does Omar Bongo have to do with this incident?  This sounds like an inside job or something the CIA would do.  --Bushido Hacks 05:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trad denies circulating messages 

message: This is just a heads up for potential future developments.  It appears at least theoretically possible that sedition charges could be laid against people involved in promoting these riots.
80.2 Sedition. Urging violence within the community
:(5) A person commits an offence if:
:(a) the person urges a group or groups (whether distinguished by race, religion, nationality or political opinion) to use force or violence against another group or other groups (as so distinguished); and
:(b) the use of the force or violence would threaten the peace, order and good government of the Commonwealth.
:Penalty: Imprisonment for 7 years.
:(6) Recklessness applies to the element of the offence under subsection (5) that it is a group or groups that are distinguished by race, religion, nationality or political opinion that the first-mentioned person urges the other person to use force or violence against.
—the preceding unsigned comment is by BenAveling (talk • contribs) 
:People like Alan Jones?  Anyway, the bill has passed the Parliament, but it hasn't recieved Royal Assent yet, and so those laws can't apply to this (AFAIK they didn't make it retrospective). --bainer (talk) 21:56, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: They didn't, but AFAICT the new laws don't change much as regards inciting violence.  From memory, class becomes group, and in 5b "or" is replaced by "and".  With lawyers involved, who knows if that makes it stronger or weaker.  Regards, Ben Aveling 00:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sedition 

message: Someone believes that the Immigration to Australia link is obviously relevant.  It's not obvious to me that it is.  The perpetrators were not immigrants.  The victims were not targeted because they were immigrants, and most were not.  What have I missed?  Why is this link relevant?  Thanks in anticipation of your explaination.  Ben Aveling 21:44, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A good point, Hyperfeedback. I think that the Immigration to Australia link can stand as a pointer to secondary material which might help those otherwise not familiar with the broader situation here.--cjllw | TALK 01:58, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The perpetrators were not mostly imigrants, the victims were not mostly imigrants.  It may have something to do with perceptions of imigrants, but it has nothing to do with imigration.  In what way is immigration relevant?  Regards, Ben Aveling 02:34, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree that the majority of participants in these events are most likely to have been locally-born, not immigrants (although I am like everyone else including the media making assumptions about the crowd's composition, since AFAIK no-one has actually and factually surveyed this), and would reject any imputation that immigrants are substantively involved or responsible. However, folks from beyond these shores may not have a good handle on the ethnic terminology and history of multiculturalism here, and so I'd say that it might be useful to include the link in the "see also" as background reference- what do you think?--cjllw | TALK 02:53, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

text: To further clarify, if you know of an alternative article which better describes the background to multiculturalism here, then that can be used instead.--cjllw | TALK 03:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Immigration to Australia]] 

message: Someone keeps re-inserting the photo of a police officer protecting some individual from the larger crowd. This particular photo has no source or licensing information, and given that its description indicates it was taken from a Fairfax website, it is unlikely to be released for use here. Please refrain from adding photos which do not meet wikipedia's licensing restrictions.--cjllw | TALK 23:05, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fairfax photo 

message: I believe this article no longer needs to be tagged for clean up.  Any views before removal?--A  Y  Arktos 00:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it can be removed for now. It's not like this is a neglected article that needs to advertise for folks to come along and help fix it up.--cjllw | TALK 00:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the tag.  It was added by an anon user with this edit who also added the comment "This article currently uses an uneven combination of footnotes and simple external links, resulting in completely disorganized footnote numbering. Please fix it."  --A  Y  Arktos 00:54, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it still needs clean up.  But agreed, it doesn't need a clean up tag to attract attention - we're aware of the problems and we're working on them.  Regards, Ben Aveling 11:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean up tag 

message: "These combined underlying causes suggest that these types of conflict may escalate to another scale or may continue for prolonged periods, until immigration policy is reformed and Muslim settlers repatriated."
New to this wikipedia stuff so dont know what stuffs suitable to delete n stuff
Does anyone agree with me that this is not suitable. If its a ainsteam view I think I wont leave the country ill leave the planet!Hyperfeedback 00:37, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hyperfeedback, you've done the right thing by bringing it here, but if you see something like the above, which is unsubstantiated, unattributed to any citeable source, and obviously reads like some passing editor's personal opinion on the matter, then by all means be bold and get rid of it (which I have done), in the process explaining why you did so, of course. The onus is on the contributors of such dubious statements to provide the references and argue for its inclusion, not the other way around. At least that is one view around here, you will find other views of course as you stick around. In theory at least, the nett outcome of these competing views should gradually settle at some consensus version- in theory, mind!--cjllw | TALK 00:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suitable? 

message: * Violence in relation to the Lebanese gangs is race-based and widespread, according to the former Sydney detective Tim Priest:
"They and their associates have been involved in numerous murders over the past five years, many of them unprovoked fatal attacks on young Australian men for no other reason than that they are “Skips”, as they call Australians."  
Hi Beneaththelandslide, 
you keep adding this in without explaining why this is relevant.  There were no leb gangs involved in the riot.  They didn't commit the violence and they weren't the target of it.  
I acknowledge that the existance of Leb gangs might have been used as an excuse to assault anyone who vaguely looked Lebanese.  So, yes, we need something.  We could make the language a bit more encyclopedic.
Violence by Lebanese gangs is race-based and widespread, according to the former Sydney detective Tim Priest:
"They and their associates have been involved in numerous murders over the past five years, many of them unprovoked fatal attacks on young Australian men for no other reason than that they are “Skips”, as they call Australians."  
But we don't normally quote people by name, without a reason.  And without knowing how many murders there actually have been - probably not large numbers, or if any of them are related to Cronulla - again probably not, the quote seems off tangent to me.
There is plenty in the press at the moment about recent bad blood between locals and visitors.  Could you have a look through it and see if you can find something we'll both agree is appropriate?
Thanks, Ben Aveling 01:41, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unrelated quote. 

message: The section headings in this article are quite un-encyclopædic - more tabloid-esque, if you ask me. Though this is a current event, we have to remember we are an encyclopædia, not WikiNews. Any suggestions for replacements?--cj | talk 02:14, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Headings