Talk:Goth subculture/Archive 2

message: Once Adrift*'s issues are dealt with to everyone's satisfaction, I think we'll have a pretty stable and rather good article here. It may not yet meet the high criteria for featured article status, but I think it'll deserve a bit of PR on Wikipedia. Any ideas? I'm thinking of nominating it for "good article" status not too far in the future. I am a bit worried about the ideology, etc., section, not because I'm still concerned about the word "ideology". But it does seem very thin on references to support some of the claims such as those that Adrift* highlighted. Metamagician3000 07:21, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I couldn't find any easier way to deal with the contentious portions of the subheading but to delete them. I might be in the wrong for that and feel that maybe the sentence tieing into the themes of Romance and Neoromance, specifically, could have been dealt with in another way. I have no problems with other editors either reverting or reediting the sections i've deleted, but feel there's need for discussion before doing so. At any rate, I agree with Metamagician3000 that, at this point, this is a fairly stable article and deserves at least "good article" status. We really need more citations, and that's something i think i can work on a bit in the future.--Adrift* 07:49, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: PR for the article

message: The pictures don't bring much to the article and are kind of lacking.  We need some pictures of contemporary goths; elder or mallgoths or whatever.  This was attempted before but fell short, though i'm still unsatisfied with the current choice of pictures.
:This article needs to be re-organized.  I don't know how many would agree, but I think the order should be History/Origin, Idealology, popular intolerance, cultural influences, music... then the other three should be combined into the other sections.
::This article is good except that it's very messy.  We're not trying to write a book; a lot of things seem superflous and defiant of NPOV.  It needs to be more uniform and easy to browse.
Whatcanuexpect 22:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Goth metal scene is a goth metal scene, not a goth scene. btw: Why do you think that this goth metal thing is a continental european phenomenon? --~Menorrhea  22:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Things to maybe change 

message: That sounds very vague. Specially in the article that is trying to define goth.
:What part of the article are you referring to specifically?--Adrift* 08:38, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "gothic" taste 

message: This study investigates the high proportion of goths who admit having self-harmed or attempted suicide - but BEFORE they became goths! It suggests that identifying with a tolerant, distinctive subculture is of real psychological benefit to children/teens with emotional or social problems. I think that a sentence or two on it would fit well into the second paragraph of the 'Ideology' section, but I'm new to Wikipedia and would really appreciate some advice on how to word it. I know, I know, BE BOLD and all that, but it's such a sensitive subject and I don't want to unintentionally be offensive or POV. Bottlegreen roses 01:55, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i read about that, but check some of the number crunching here.  --MilkMiruku 23:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm yeah ok point taken. A sample of 25 people isn't really much of a study, is it? Thanks for pointing that out! Bottlegreen roses 23:30, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, the study does not indicate something that I thought stuck out like a sore thumb: Isn't it possible that the percentages are equal amongst all sections of our culture, but that my Gothic community is less redisent about reporting it? I believe that all groups and sub-cultures have this... problem, shall we say, but because the Goth community is so much more open about pretty much everything, we are the only ones comfortable enough to admit it in mass numbers. "Mass" being loose term, based on the sample size. It could also be that some people, trying to fit in (especially those of a lesser age), will attempt anything, even SI. --Inten Rael 04:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent University of Glasgow study 

message: I see that someone has deleted the material on Poppy Z. Brite. Someone has also added a block of material which now reads (after some copyediting: 
"Then within the newer developments in the gothic literary medium one will see authors named Macey Wuesthoff, who call to mind the works of Stephen King with her novel Sacrifice along with the vampire novel written by Joseph Armstead named Darkness Fears which takes an accurate look at a goth nightclub. Their works depict the more brutal side of the gothic subculture, which shows its kinship with dark metal. Gothic films such as Psycho, inspired by the Robert Bloch novel of the same name, bring to mind the aspects of the gothic being more psychological. Richard Matheson's novel,  I Am Legend is about vampires spawned from the apocalypse.  Followers of Matheson include authors Terry Lloyd Vinson and Nicholas Grabowsky.  Their works will have more in common  thematically with bands Iced Earth and AC/DC; nonetheless, a gothic element is evident."
I don't know whether I'm in agreement with these edits, and I am not clear what relationship is claimed between these various works and the goth subculture, but I have not tampered with the para beyond copyediting it. (I'll do some more of this, as some of it still needs fixing.) Nor have I reinstated any of the Brite material. I'd be interested in responses from other editors here. Metamagician3000 09:23, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would reinstate a reference to Brite, but only a small one: she no longer identifies with the subculture, and was never universally popular within it, though she did create a few goth characters in her earlier novels and is popular in some circles. I didn't notice this paragraph about Wuesthoff in the main article, but I'd suggest that if it's still there it be removed: it smacks of self-promotion and I don't believe she is a writer deeply associated with the subculture, except in her own mind (nor have I heard of the "followers" mentioned in that paragraph). Both Brite and Caitlin R. Kiernan are, along with a few others. And the goth scene didn't have much "kinship" with dark metal until pretty recently (past wearing black clothing); many goths consider metal fans a different breed and don't want to be lumped in with them. Some goths do like some metal, though. 4.225.130.185 09:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Contemporary gothic literature

message: Here are some sentances I personally have problems with, and was wondering if we could see some discussion on.
From the top of the article:
Its imagery and cultural proclivities show influences from nineteenth century Gothic literature, mainly by way of horror movies (particularly cinematic depictions of vampires).
I more or less agree with this statement, except the part in parenthesis. When I think of Peter Murphy, Robert Smith, Siouxsie, Nick Fiend, Captain Sensible, Johnny Slut, Rozz Williams, etc. where the Goth LOOK undeniably came from, I never think vampire.
Goth after post-punk
The 2003 Victoria and Albert Museum Gothic exhibition in London furthered a tenuous connection between modern goth and the medieval gothic period.
It did? How? why? 
Over time, the gothic subculture has developed its own "goth slang", with regional variations.
It has? If it has, its not nearly as prevalent as hip hop slang...
: Yes, it has. In fact, a book of subcultural slang for writers called Talk the Talk was recently published, and goth was one of the subcultures included. Unfortunately, many of the definitions given by the author, Luc Reid, are at least slightly incorrect. It appears that he only used a handful of forums for research. 
: The fact that "goth slang" hasn't been appropriated in mass culture doesn't mean it doesn't exist: "babygoth/babybat," "eldergoth," "mopeygoth," "graver," "doom cookie," etc. Another thing is that, although it's technically slang, it's probably immediately apparent what most of it means. Most of these things were originally coinages on alt.gothic.
: And there are indeed regional variations: see the Australian terms, and think of things like "PonyGoth" - which meant a goth, usually female, who had multicolor hair extensions, like a My Little Pony doll! This originated in the UK in the early 1990s and does not seem to have caught on extensively in the US, though it was used on some forums for a while when the look itself started to catch on here. I think it eventually merged into "cybergoth," since that was the fashion identification of many of the American girls who adopted the hairstyle.
: 4.225.130.185 08:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: PS, I believe I may be able to put you in touch with the person who actually coined the term "babygoth" (now sometimes seen as "baby bat" - as "goth" and "bat" are sometimes interchangeable when used as suffixes on descriptive terms). It did not originally mean "someone with potential" (to grow into a valuable scene member). The goth scene proper - the music/dance/fashion scene - is VERY club/bar/pub-centric, and most clubs are age-restricted due to their drinking licenses, and many adult goths do not like all-ages clubs or club nights. (Anecdotal? Use Google News to read as much of alt.gothic from about ten to twelve years ago as you can. It's documented there. I can't stress enough that SO MUCH of what we know as goth today is related to or documented by alt.gothic in the early-to-mid-1990s.) A babygoth or babybat was simply a goth too young to go into a regular club or pub night, or many concerts (usually under 18 or under 21), and thus unable to participate completely in the scene. One reason it was coined was that many of the events at the earliest Convergence goth conventions were age-restricted, leaving some high school and college students who were able to go to the con barred from some of its events. A few took it upon themselves to create their own events specifically for the younger set and referred to them as "babygoth events". 09:29, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok well I'm gonna be bold and start editing, I'm also adding some more photos to make the whole article more visually appealing. Go ahead and let me know if you folks have any problems with my edits.--Adrift* 17:41, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Wow... none of those things has anything to do with goth at all. The only well-handled goth I've seen on a TV drama is Abby on NCIS. Ellie and Ashley on DeGrassi were both, indeed, also goth for a while, albeit teen-goth (when are we going to stop pretending that goth isn't really two different subcultures, one more associated with teenagers and the other more associated with adults?). But pro wrestling is pretty much diametrically opposite to the goth scene, and Bam Margera is a guy who does stunts on MTV. There may be some self-styled teen goths who also like those things, but those things are not elements of their "gothness" - any more than "sushi is goth" because there are plenty of goths who like sushi. It's incidental. 4.225.130.185 08:47, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Didn't see this reply till just now, so thank you for that.--Adrift* 06:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: sentances that possibly need altering or deletion

message: As you can see, I added a few new photos. Hopefully I jumped through all the right hoops for fair use of these. I plan on adding a picture of The Batcave night club further up the article, a picture of a modern Darkwave/Goth band like Cruxshadows in the music section, A picture of an "elder" goth and one of a "corporate" goth, as well as maybe some sort of picture for the media characterization section (maybe a picture of the Columbine school or something). I'm sure there will be a bit of shuffling and what not with the pics, feel free to do what you all see fit. I think it really does help bring the page to life when you have good pictures of real goths, and this being such a visable scene its a shame that we haven't done more sooner. Ok let me know what you think, and I'd still like to hear what you folks think about my other edits... I plan on eventually adding more citations to the article too some where down the road and cleaning up the article for Good Article status.--Adrift* 19:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Where would we add that? In the Summary section of the photo? Adding photos to Wiki is such a pain, i wish it was all spelled out better than it is now.--Adrift* 13:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The word on the street, as it were, is that Sunset Blvd. (1950 film) is a good article to imitate in terms of its handling of fair use issues. We should right click on the images in that article, follow the links, and see what happens. You can do the same thing with the two images that I had a go at in this article (which, however, I may not have done especially well). Transhumanism is the only article I've worked on heavily which has received FA status. A couple of other people recently had a go at its images to get it through the process. Metamagician3000 13:43, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos added 

message: ... Is it just me, or does that phrase reek of POV? 
.. And some of the criticism of the goth subculture has some level of validity, like the fact that many who "go goth" do so to set themselves apart from others, but really end up as "mallgoths", which is just another form of conformism.
The term "mallgoth" should probably also be merged with the goth article.
--Rober2 13:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Explain how you think "popular intolerance" sounds POV. Would you rather see something like "Public Criticism"? I don't see a problem with changing it to something like that. As far as the conformist issue is concerened, we've had that in and out of the article several times. The problem with previous write ups about that is that it doesn't seem to highlight how conformism is any different in the Goth scene than it is in any other subculture. It seems odd to me that critics of the goth scene always seem to point out the comformity issue, yet you see little discussion of the same issue in the punk article, heavy metal article, hip-hop article, etc. As far as the mallgoth merge goes. We do have a pretty big section that discusses mallgoths/Spooky kids further up the article. Seems redundant to merge it into the article, but I personally don't have Major problems with a merge if its done right.--Adrift* 16:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "popular intolerance"? 

message: I did some cleaning up today per the Good Article failure and also based on some of the recommendations of other editors. Look it through and tell me what you think. I still think that Elder Goth and Corporate Goth should be combined under a heading like Styles and Variances in the Goth Scene where we could also possibly summarize or merge other sub-goth related articles.--Adrift* 16:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spring Cleaning 

message: Is this term really in common enough usage to warrant a mention by that name? 82.16.91.162 07:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say it is used enough to warrant inclusion in Wiki if someone were to push the point. It does seem a bit alien in this article as it stands though. I believe it was merged into the article from it's own entry.--Adrift* 14:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It is common, and describes something important in and to the scene, but this concept should not have its own section. 'Elder goths' and 'Corporate goths' should be merged into one section called 'Types of goths', and the various other goth types could be discussed there as well, perhaps in the context of a 'gothic lifecycle' or something along those amusing lines. Ecto 22:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: agreed -- i think the term would benefit from being nested in a 'types of goths' more linear outline-like structure -- as we know some are distinguished by decade, scene, musical allegiance or values (for example), and a defined grouping like this would show the distinctions and progressions in such a way that the relationships between types would be clearer. a lot of redundancy and exposition could be cut out this way. --  Denstat 05:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The term 'eldergoth' actually relates to why the subculture itself has not died out.  Many of the influential 'old-school' goths are entering their mid-thirties and early fourties, and they are still making significant contributions to the culture through organizing clubs, DJing, producing music, etc.  The term is used both as a self-deprecating joke and a substitute for 'old-school'. LadyK 19:32, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elder goth 

message: It seems to me that these two sections could be combined into a single 'History' section. Any thoughts? Ecto 12:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the two sections need to stay seperate in some fashion. The Origins and Development section is specifically about the origins of the current scene which is truly what the article hangs on, it documents the history of the scene, but only in as much as the term Goth is used today. On the other hand the Historical and Cultural influences is a truly historic look at where the concepts, look, and terms may have come from. It seems to me they are two very different topics that need to stay seperated. However, I wouldnt object to moving the Historical and Cutural Influences above the Gothic Music section, but the Gothic Music section obviously ties into the Origins and Development section, so any move seems sort of counter-productive.
--Adrift* 03:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Origins and development' and 'Historical and cultural influences' 

message: I restored the recently removed disambiguation link to Goths.  Why?  Because I typed in "goth" to the search box looking for the tribes, but got the subculture instead.  I'm probably not the only one to do it, and having the link right there is better than having to think "OK, what is THAT article titled".  GeoGreg 06:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation link 

message: i don't think that the recent school shooting at dawson college and the shooter kimveer gill should be in the criticism and intolerance section. it's mentioned because of the shooter's espousal of aspects of goth, but without any context -- no evidence has surfaced that shows he suffered for being a goth whatsoever. i think it should come out. --  Denstat 00:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: nobody has responded -- i reworked the sentence to downplay the goth=shooter analogy, but i still think it doesn't belong. actually the whole criticism and intolerance section is weak, needs work. --  Denstat 07:15, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, I just noticed that was in there...now I'm now toying with the idea of simply deleting it. I kept thinking of how it could be re-worded to make it "fit", but I just kept going blank. Hm. Unless someone else can edit it in such a way that it flows well with the article, or unless I can think of a better way of wording it, I'm gonna get rid of that section. It's not like this is the only other time a black-clad shooter has been claimed to be "gothic" by the media; I really don't see the need for the inclusion of this one particular case. CatZilla 22:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Whatever; I'm just going to delete it. If anyone wants to add it back in...feel free to do it, as long as you can make it belong. CatZilla 23:05, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: School shooters and Goth

message: User:Deltabeignet deleted this entire section as unsourced. it's been part of the article for some time, so did that express apathy or tacit agreement that the section belonged here? --  Denstat 05:59, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wow, I just noticed that...should it be put back in? That is a somewhat important section in this article, especially considering that many people who lack knowledge about the goth subculture might come here for info. But were there any citations for it? I can't say that I've read any articles that tackle the particular issue of intolerance of goths, but there should probably be some sort of info on it here, clearing up the whole goth= troubled killer issue. Weren't there Columbine-related sites cited? My memory is a bit fuzzy.-- CatZilla 16:04, 05 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Please refrain from making personal attacks. And the connection to the Columbine shootings was made by the media, not a Wikipedia editor. Mdwh 00:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Take the time to read the section. It does not "mock" goths or tie them to Columbine. Instead, it exonerates them.Theplanetsaturn 04:22, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Which way you do think people may take it? Mdwh 16:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: @The Powerful: No... This is not about interpretation. Read the paragraph again. Note the qualifier in this relevant sentence: "the false conceptions that goths are evil.". The qualifier is the word "false". Here's another: "inaccurately linked to the goth subculture. " The qualifier this time is the word: "inaccurately". Then there is the closing sentence: "proven to have had no link to the goth subculture." This not about perception. This is about the literal meaning of words. Anyone who takes the criticism section as anything other than information that exonerates the goth subculture is at fault for failing to comprehend the basic structure of the English language. And frankly, if they are that far gone in their ability to comprehend, they are already a lost cause.Theplanetsaturn 19:04, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

text: What accusations, exactly? As for "some may not read it carefully", by that logic, we should delete everything on Wikipedia in case they misread and think it says something it doesn't. Mdwh 23:40, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: @The Powerful- There are no accusations in the section you keep deleting. In fact, the information in that paragraph is the opposite, explaining why accusations of that nature are false. As for you being a goth... So what? Theplanetsaturn 00:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: So you're in favor of deleting information that exonerates the goth subculture, all the while bleating that you're just defending goths? That's just foolish. Delete it, it will be readded easily. You're just a vandal. Theplanetsaturn 19:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: deletion of Criticism & intolerance section

message: There is a lot of discussion here, so this may have been addressed:
Movies based on her books have been filmed in recent years — notably Interview with the Vampire, which starred Brad Pitt, and the more recent Queen of the Damned, in which goths appear directly and indirectly. The first film, in particular, helped further encourage the spread of Victorian style fashions in the subculture (although period inspired clothing has been a recurrent trend in the gothic subculture).
The trouble is that I don't think that it DID have much to do with encouraging the spread of Victorian (later 19th century) fashions in the subculture, as the only notable "Victorian fashion" moment in the movie is really the part where Claudia and Madeleine are in the matching bustle gowns when they are killed. Much of the rest of the movie's notable fashion is 18th century (the frock coats and cravats on the men prior to and during the adoption of Claudia). There's a big difference - 50 to 100 years, but some people are so poorly versed in history that they assume that anything with a big skirt is "Victorian" (not necessarily here, but in the wider world). 
I don't think it's in any way arguable that those two bustle gowns had a huge effect on fashion in the gothic subculture, any more than any other bustle gowns (like Satine's red gown in Moulin Rouge), but the men's 18th century costumes may have had some effect on the more "romantic" end of goth male dress. An 18th century court/aristocracy look is still popular with goth men, but only the ones who are not concerned with looking too foppish. Others would disdain the look as kind of silly or pretentious.
Basically, what I'm really saying is, "Is Victorian really what you meant?"
I don't Believe that anything to do with the vampire chronicles should be included. They aren't really that goth,but i guess no one else sees it my way--Fiyero554 03:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just read what you wrote, and...I agree. I changed it so it now says "romantic" instead of "Victorian". I also doubt if the books and movies really had all that much effect in the goth subculture, but I know the books are quite popular amongst many goths. I also know many people who disliked the movie renditions-- especially the Queen of the Damned (which, to me, seemed to give it more of a nu-metal twist). So for now I just altered it slightly, but I think I might edit it so it doesn't take up so much of the 20th cent. influences section in the future. -- CatZilla 16:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I could not speak of the book being particularly relevant to the subculture NOW, but at least in the Berkeley California area in the early eighties, I can vouch for it having had some impact. Judging what is relevant to a subculture that has spanned decades is not a simple task. Theplanetsaturn 22:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interview with the Vampire 

message: I noticed that in this section, Shadowrun is cited as an influence that made goth subculture more popular. As a Shadowrun player, I've never heard of this, and I never got any kind of gothic vibe from Shadowrun. (At least, much less so than, say, SLA Industries.) Should this be removed?
In addition, I propose a brief addition to the music section pointing out that "goth" itself is not a musical genre, offering a comparison to, say, "hippie music" which describes a link to a subculture, but includes bands from multiple genres. (You wouldn't say that The Grateful Dead and The Cowsills are part of the same genre, likewise Bauhaus and The Cruxshadows.) --Halloween jack 14:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I'm not a gamer so I can't really judge "Shadowrun" (I'm assuming it's a game?). I'm extremely confused about what you mean when you say that "goth itself is not a musical genre", though. First of all...yes, it is. There's a decent wiki article, Gothic Rock, which goes into all this. Also, unlike your comparison to "hippy music", "hippy music" can be a rather vague term, because the hippy subculture wasn't as dependent on music as the goth subculture was and is.-- CatZilla 20:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Shadowrun is a roleplaying game, kind of like cyberpunk but with orcs and elves and some sort of crazy fusion of magic and cyberpunk. It really is not "gothic" at all, it was kind of a bad game. Cyberpunk, however, has a very "eighties" vibe but not solely goth. I do not think they could be connected in any way to gothic subculture. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.166.222.160 (talk) 02:43, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Later media influences" and a proposed addition

message: 
It seems the section now labeled "Criticism" (not controversy) should be DELETED. Since neither of the items included are bonafide academic criticism of the goth movement but merely mention 2 comedians poking fun at goths. The fact is that goths routinely self-parody as well (and self-parody deserves some mention, which I see missing).  I would hardly cite someones commedy routine as "criticism", and in any event what makes these 2 commedians so important that a general reader should be interested?   Is this page intended to promote these 2 commedians?
If the Pope or someone of general interest criticizes the goth movement I could see the importance. I dont believe the satirical criticisms of 2 commedians is important enough for an encyclopedic article.
Quite frankly Saturday Night Live's "Goth Talk" should be mentioned if we are going to go down this route. I've seen huge amounts of material making fun of goths.  What makes these 2 so special?
This section should be deleted. 
TheDarknessVisible 01:28, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism by 2 Comedians

message: Should we cut down on this section? It seems more like an exhaustive list than a proper "see also" section. We could work most of these links into the main body of the article or daughter articles. For example, most of the goth-related genres could be mentioned in the music section or the article on gothic rock. Ecto 08:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also 

message: In my most humble opinion, there should be a section about the cultural mockery and criticism the gothic subculture catches. E.G.: The Aquabats! song Fashion Zombies which generally mocks the entire concept of buying expensive clothes to look like "they crawled out of coffins". Kevin DuBrow 00:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The last section of the article is along those lines. Ecto 08:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What about "You'll Dance To Anything" by the Dead Milkmen (er, I think) or "Goth Girl" by John Wesley Harding? (The latter is a gentle, affectionate parody about a "normal" guy with a crush on a goth girl, but he does mock her boyfriend and friends a little: "Goth girl, who is the guy on the leash? Does he wash dishes? Goth girl, he looks like Pete Murphy to me - aw, yeah, HE WISHES!" etc.) There are other songs in this vein; maybe someone else can come up with a few more. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.131.38.195 (talk) 10:06, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism and Parody 

message: I feel that we should beef up the lead slightly. What is there is pretty good, but a lead is supposed to provide an overview of the whole article, and a standard lead in the best articles is quite a bit longer than this - typically three paras and up to twice as long as what we have here. Anyone have ideas how to improve it? I won't tamper with it without discussing here first. Metamagician3000 23:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No thoughts from anyone else? Metamagician3000 10:14, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kristengoth4.jpg
:Looks like an Emo kid or a babybat. --~Menorrhea  14:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: hmm, is it you that girl, maybe? :P   --Dr. Who 23:35, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't really look like an emo kid as defined in the US. (A typical emo look is much more punky/indie-rock - practically sporty in comparison to a goth look). Looks like a young goth girl to me. Cute pic! 4.131.38.195 11:10, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A pseudogothgirl, yes. --~Menorrhea  14:06, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  And just who is this beautiful one? 

message: I think the article does not discuss continental gothic scene, which is often connected more with the metal scene than with Sisters of Mercy-type of bands. The reason to include these is a bit different dressing code and different taste in music, e.g. old Paradise Lost (and their album Gothic), Katatonia (Metal/gothic/rock), and various forms of metal, which introduce elements of gothic in combination with different styles (progressive-gothic, gothic-doom, etc).
:This is the article of the original Goth subculture, a post-punk- and new-wave-related subculture. It's not the metal article. Gothic Metal is definitely a metal style. And the fans of this music are not really goths. They're hybrids, metallers or neogoths without a relation to the gothic roots. --~Menorrhea  22:42, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Metal 

message: Gothic Babe of the Week at http://www.industrialgothic.com/ was removed.  It has been in existence much longer than the majority of sites claiming to represent the Gothic Subculture, and is widely known.  It has been in existence since 1996, and has had nearly 6 million visits.
It is a great portrayal of Gothic subculture representation and how it varied over the past 10 years or more, in it's archives.
Please explain why it doesn't qualify, and justify the links you display now. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.101.157.140 (talk) 22:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  General Websites Editing 

message: It is clearly just a dumping ground for people to add their favourite books, comics and TV shows, with no assertion of relevance ever given.
Can anyone think of a reason why, at the very least, I should not remove every item whose own article does not make reference to the goth subculture? If a connection is tenuous enough not to be mentioned in the article for a given book, comic, TV show or movie, then surely it's too tenuous to be worth a "See Also" link?
An exhaustive list of everything that at least one self-identifed goth Wikipedia editor is a fan of serves no purpose. --Stormie 21:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The big problem on WIkipedia is that members of various subcultures very often are not aware that their language as well as their mental schemes are not objective and very far from encyclopedic standards. It happens with most of the stuff written regarding music genres. --Dr. Who 23:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "See Also" section is a disaster 

message: Any point in these links in the sources:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=gothics
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=gothagain
These are not useful, neutral, or even correct, they are a (stupid) man's opinion, he can't even get the term right.
I dont see anything that could even be interpreted as from that site in the article...
So is there any perticular reason theyre there?
72.69.145.201 02:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPV in Sources 

message: Do Goths cut and do self-mutalation (i think I spelled that wrong) or mostly Emos?
(I personally dont think Emo is even a real style though)
:Um, OK, you should use four tildes to sign your posts or press the little button at the top of the edit window that looks like it has handwriting on it, just to the right of the W in the red crossed-through circle. Ahem.
:Self-injury is not related to subculture, it's related to emotional and psychological issues. Quoting from the Wikipedia article, the person who self-injures is not usually seeking to end his or her own life, but is instead hoping to cope with or relieve unbearable emotional pain or discomfort. Someone may have reasons for cutting which tie into their reasons for being attracted to certain kinds of music or imagery or stories, but there are plenty of people who do not cut who are also attracted to those things. The goth and emo subcultures are two things that unhappy people might be attracted to, but there are plenty of people in the mainstream who self-injure, too, and plenty of happy, relatively well-adjusted goths. You should not assume that the way someone dresses or the fact that they listen to melodramatic music means that they are a self-injurer, and that everyone who looks "normal" isn't one. 4.131.38.195 11:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: cutting

message: The references contain broken links: http://vampirefreaks.com/main.php?pg=4 currently ref #7, takes you to the homepage of vampirefreaks.com, not the article at that site that's supposed to be used as a reference.  Also, http://www.star-telegram.com/news/nation/11200369.htm takes me to an error page, though this could be because a subscription is required. delldot talk 23:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broken lks 

message: Things to do.
different parts of the earth have local customs which differ. lets discuss and document.
TheDarknessVisible 05:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Gothic Geographic Scenes

message: Things to do.
there are certain rules goths never break at the threat of losing their membership card. Lets discuss and document.  For example : Never tell anyone to their face that you are "more goth" than they are.  dont argue about what goth is where anyone can see you. dont argue about goth at all with anyone with more goth status than you (generally years in the scene or contributions to the scene decide status). etc... some are universal rules, some are local, some correspond to what the goth is wearing.
there are customs...  codes of conduct.. etc..  
discuss and document..
TheDarknessVisible 05:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is any of this verifiable? Metamagician3000 00:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: gothic "society"

message: goth magazines
goth movies
goth art
goth poetry
document, document. a lot of goths write poetry.. who are they inspired by? does any research exist?  there are magazines which don't pertain to any specific style of goth music but actually are better described as pertaining to the entire culture...  there is Tim Burton.
discuss and document
TheDarknessVisible 05:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  goth related media 

message: This article is referring to the Goth subculture. Those who don't consider themselves Goth aren't actually Goths then, are they? I believe that any mention of this in the article should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.30.241 (talk • contribs) 19:44, 1 April 2007
What you "consider" has nothing to do with it. goth is a subculture, not a religion.  If you like what the goths like, and behave like the goths behave, and dress like the goths dress and have social ties with the goths. You are a goth.  if you dont do those things you aren't. And what you consider one way or another is not relevant.
however anything that doesn't meet wiki rules SHOULD be removed from the article so feel free to start chopping.TheDarknessVisible 05:14, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Goths who don't consider themselves Gothic 

message: I dont think we should be putting in pictures of artists that dont actually make goth music.  listing their relation to the goth scene is fine and dandy, but it is confusing to include their picture as the reader expects pictures of goths or goth musicians.  they can follow a link if they want a picture of VNV Nation.TheDarknessVisible 05:14, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's your POV. Many goths of today think that VNV Nation is a modern goth band. We should add a pic of Ronan Harris. :-) --~Menorrhea  00:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: pictures of non-goth artists

message: If you have any information on these articles (Neogoth or Electrogoth) or topics, please go to their respective pages join in the deletion discussion, or help to improve the articles.TheDarknessVisible 08:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Neogoth]] and [[Electrogoth]] are nominated for deletion