Talk:Carahunge

message: I have demoted the (one line) that somebody added as a section about the constellation Cygnus to a paragraph in the 'Speculation' section, and added a 'citation needed' tag. But I'm concerned about the illustration. I have altered the caption considerably, and was very much tempted to remove the whole illustation (without a citation it is WP:OR); but I relented and left it in. I have serious doubts about the relevance of that carved stone though: the caption simply asserts that it is a "map of the night sky", and certainly the article Göbekli Tepe - which wasn't linked until I did so - does not support the claim. --ColinFine (talk) 22:05, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cygnus 

message: Paris Herouni was a prominent scientist, astrophysicist, inventor, professor and author of several scientific books. His research and the famous book on Carahunge is based on months of site expedition of a scientific research team, results were analyzed in accordance with astronomical precise calculations details of which are published entirely in his book "Armenians and Old Armenia". So far no published analytical objections against the authenticity of Herouni's methods or calculations are known or referenced here and therefore his conclusion according to which Carahunge is the worlds oldest observatory remains in tact.  Hovik Mirzakhanian — Preceding comment added by Hovikmir (talk • contribs) 03:34, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Or it might if possibly the most noted archaeostronomer today hadn't disagreed. Dougweller (talk) 14:58, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: There are serious problems with the sources available for this article - (one only need to look at the sometimes crazy content of the above Reliable sources talk). Just because every random empty-headed tourist arriving at Karahunj has some preconcieved idea, or idea given to them by their "guide", that what they are seeing is a "7000-year-old observatory" does not mean that this majority opinion is in some way proven. This site has not been properly investigated and nothing has been proven. As to the theory by Stephan Kroll - that the lines of stones are the remains of a wall - this theory too is still an unproven theory. And it is a self-published theory - it just appears as a very brief summary on Kroll's own website.  It has not, as far as I am aware, ever been published in a peer-reviewed periodical or any other publication. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:39, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, Kroll's theory is superficially convincing, and more convincing than the 7000-year-old observatory stuff, and also matches the layout of the stones (acting a barrier cutting off the approach to a peninsula), but it is presented in such a sparse and unexplained way that it is impossible to assess it further. And the "place of refuge" wording he uses is a standard cop-out that archaeologist use to explain-away features they cannot explain (in this case the lack of any settlement behind the supposed "walls"). Nor are the holes in the stones explained, or even mentioned. Nor is how the stone circle was included in this defensive wall. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:54, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you know how Herouni calculated the age?  I see no reason not to use Kroll, he seems to have the expertise to get past the self-published bit. I've got my eye on something very good in terms of both content and being a solid RS but maybe not obtainable at the moment. Dougweller (talk) 19:45, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't suggesting we should not use Kroll, just pointing out that his is (to date) a self-published theory that has only appeared on his website. There is some really embarassing content out there on Karahunj, the latest being from a group that is, allegedly, an "Oxford University expedition". For a possible explanation of how the stone circle could have been part of a defensive wall, see this example of a circular structure used as a gateway in a defensive wall: the Arcadian Gate in Messene. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:29, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the clarification. Dougweller (talk) 16:06, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  About Paris Herouni and Carahunge 

message: * book: In radiophysicist Paris Herouni's book Armenians and Old Armenia, he has done a research and demonstrates, with the help of German, Russian, and other scientists, that Carahunge is 7500 years old and is the world's oldest observatory. Additionally, in his book are cited the names Zorats Karer and Carenish. Also, there are a lot of maps and information of/about Zorats Karer. Please take the time to read the first 50 pages, it is also interesting and entertaining. In the book also exists about the god Ari.
* In this web site of Andrew Collins, it is written that Carahunge is 7500 years old. ()
* In Carahunge's official web site, it is written '7500-year-old Stone Circle in Armenia.'
* In The Megalithic Portal () is written 'There is also a popular alternative theory that dates it to 5500 BCE based on stellar alignments.'
* In this reportage/programme of CNN is said 'According to [?] expeditions, it can be the oldest observatory of the world having history of 7500 years....' Please watch the video, it contains much useful information. In the video, is shown that in the oldest handwritings of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles is written 'bacomen of armenia.[?]'
* book: Also, in this excerpt of the book 'Before Atlantis: 20 Million of Human and Pre-human Cultures' by Frank Joseph is written '5500 BCE - Armenia's Karahunj Astronomical Observatory Becomes Operational.' Please take a look at http://www.amazon. com/gp/reader/1591431573/ref=sr_1_2?p=S047&keywords=karahunj&ie=UTF8&qid=1408611463&tag=donations09-20
* 2000 survey of Munichen University: 
* I copied this part from Nev1: Taking a look at the source provided, it states that Herouni is the "primary researcher of Carahunge" (ie: ZoratsKarer) and that Professor Gerald Hawkins, who is the "top specialist in megalithic monuments" agrees with the interpretation of the site as an "astronomical observatory". He's an astronomer, archaeo-astronomer in fact, who did not appear to have archaeological qualifications and his theories regarding Stonehenge have been slated by Richard J. C. Atkinson.
* Please take a look at .
* Please visit .
* Salisboury Jounal, .
* Bochkarev N.G., Bochkarev Yu.N., Armenian Archaeoastronomical Monuments Carahunge and Metsamor, Report on International Conference on Folklor, Tartu, 2003
* Moreover, in Wikipedia:WikiProject_Armenia, there is a list of reliable sources, among which there is the Wiki Armeniapedia. Please take a look at the article Zorats Karer by clicking here.</span>
* Traveltrends - Karahunj (Carahunge) or Zorats Karer – One of the oldest observatories in the world - 
* book: Lonely Planet Georgia, Armenia & Azerbaijan - 
* book: Unexplained: Exploring the Mysterious by Sarah A. Shepherd 
* book: Le secret des menhirs: Bretagne et d'ailleurs by Jean DANZE 
* book: Lost Race of the Giants: The Mystery of Their Culture, Influence, and ... by Patrick Chouinard 
Update: added more resources
Information: Zorakarer is the German form of Zorats Karer, as in the German language people can combine words.
Disclaimer: I am JUST trying to help Wikipedia.
Let's go with the facts. I do not want someone saying bad things about Carahunge because they are English and 'protect' Stonehenge.
If you permit me, I can add information from these sources to the article. We can write that the construction date is disputed, and write 'who thinks what,' as in Stonehenge.
(Iamcool2014 (talk) 08:56, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Quick comment before bed. Andrew Collins is fringe and can't be used, and in any case didn't do research himself but is just repeating what Herouni said. Of course the Armenian government wants to claim it's the oldest in the world. Sure, we could say that they say that but not use it to state it is. (In fact we simply can't say it is, we can only say "so and so believes it to be...." since there is no agreement on its age or whether even it was an observatory. Megalithic Portal gets used a lot but it shouldn't be as it fails WP:RS - it's material is user contributed. Frank Joseph is Frank Collins - fringe, ex-Nazi, believer in Atlantis, no qualifications whatsover. 2 of your sources are blogs and we very rarely use blogs although we do use newspaper blogs sometimes if they have editorial supervision. More later. In any case, I know there is something oing to be published which will be a major authoritative source on the subject. Dougweller (talk) 21:01, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your response. Well, I am sure if the site were under the reign of any country, they would do their best to prove that it's the oldest. But that's... I don't know - it's confusing. I wish I could go there and do researches myself. Anyway, I found more resources on Google Books, please take a look at them. I didn't know about Andrew Collins and Frank Joseph, so thank you for your notice. Additionally, car (in Armenian) means stone (in English). Carahunge is in Armenia. Stonehenge is in English. Don't you thing 'hunge' and 'henge' are similar? Mightn't there be any connections? Hunge in Armenian has a meaning, it is used in other words like 'hamahunge' which means 'sound together, in relation'. I searched for the word 'henge' in English, but it seems it hasn't any meaning. Please do visit this interesting blog and read all the replies. Also, take a look at the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles at here and search for Armenia. Please let me know what you think. (I read on some websites that the analysations of the DNAs of Armenian people from Syunik and Karabakh and of Welsh and Irish people are very similar. I am a passionate of mythology myself, and the Armenian and Irish mythology are very similar.) Quite interesting. (Iamcool2014 (talk) 06:01, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Iamcool, I've come across all of the above stuff in chatter on forums, facebook pages, etc. They are simplified versions of the content found in not very (to me anyway) convincing sources like Herouni. There is a problem on Wikipedia that if something is said often enough, and said in enough sources, it becomes "true" as far as Wikipedia goes. So, while an editor who knows about the topic and its background will find the 7500-year-old observatory claim very dubious, it is a fact that an overwhelming number of sources agree with that 7500-year-old observatory claim. Would make for an interesting RfC, except that such a RfC is bound to be ignored. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:41, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to be a fact of life that fringe claims on subjects like this proliferate widely while analysis by the best qualified hardly gets repeated at all if it's not exciting. Dougweller (talk) 17:20, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggested sources

message: If it's from c. 7500 BCE, then it should be listed as being from the Stone Age and not the Middle Bronze Age, right? RikkiAaron (talk) 07:43, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: User:RikkiAaron, you're absolutely right. But you did say 'if', and if you read the article that suggestion is more or less decisively rejected. The source is a self-published book (see WP:SPS - we don't use self-published books except in rare cases and this isn't one of them - and it just quotes Harouni's dating which has been rejected. I've deleted it as the lead is meant to be a summary of the article and that is just a fringe view. Doug Weller (talk) 10:42, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stone Age