Talk:Historical race concepts

message: It seems that while American and many (but not all) Western European anthropologists don't find validity in racial categories, the same cannot be said of those in other regions and countries—starting with Russia and Eastern Europe, plus China and other Asian countries. Just a brief survey of the scholarship reveals this to be true—see here for one obvious example, in which it's made clear that: "Race, once the central concept in physical anthropology worldwide, now varies in the degree of support it receives in different regions." Curious if those with more expertise have concern about the article failing to include non-Western perspectives. Thanks! Elle Kpyros (talk) 19:15, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not an issue - your source is nearly 17 years old. Also, it's a matter of biology, not of perspective. --Rsk6400 (talk) 19:23, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This article cites the American Anthropological Association in the lead as the definitive view—and certainly anthropology has had more effect on historical race concepts than the relatively much-newer contributions of genetics. And even Wikipedia itself, on the subject of race, acknowledges significant variation in the views of present-day anthropologists. How familiar are you with the race concept in anthropology in Chinese or other non-Western societies? And in terms of genetics, there's no mention of new information that is challenging the current "orthodoxy" on group differences—what about the work of David Reich and others? Elle Kpyros (talk) 22:32, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This kind of discussion has a tendency to go on until the heat death of the universe, e.g. Talk:Race_and_intelligence#"Current"_scientific_consensus, so please excuse me from answering the same kind of question for the one thousand and first time. --Rsk6400 (talk) 05:04, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV issues in terms of anthropology around the world? 

message: 1."Darwin was, after all, a man of his time, class and society. True, he was committed to a monogenic, rather than the prevailing polygenic, view of human origins, but he still divided humanity into distinct races according to differences in skin, eye or hair colour. He was also convinced that evolution was progressive, and that the white races—especially the Europeans—were evolutionarily more advanced than the black races, thus establishing race differences and a racial hierarchy."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2672903/
2.First, although Darwin may indeed have opposed slavery, he did not believe in racial equality. In the Descent of Man (1871) he cited the work of his generation’s leading ethnologists — J. Barnard Davis and Paul Broca — in linking cranial capacity with racial and ethnic hierarchies. Darwin was quite clear on the matter; “science” demonstrated that craniometrics allowed for the ranking of intellect accordingly:
"The belief that there exists in man some close relationship between the size of the brain and the development of the intellectual faculties is supported by the comparison of skulls of savage and civilized races, of ancient and modern people, and by the analogy of the whole vertebrate series. Dr. J. Barnard Davis has proved [emphasis added], by many careful measurements, that the mean internal capacity of the skull in Europeans is 92.3 cubic inches; in Americans 87.5; in Asians 87.1; and in Australians only 81.9 cubic inches."
http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?itemID=F937.1&viewtype=text&pageseq=238
3.Darwin would tell the Reverend Charles Kingsley in a letter dated February 6, 1862, “It is very true what you say about the higher races of men, when high enough, replacing & clearing off the lower races. In 500 years how the Anglo-saxon race will have spread & exterminated whole nations; & in consequence how much the Human race, viewed as a unit, will have risen in rank.”
https://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/letter/?docId=letters/DCP-LETT-3439.xml
4.Divergence in mental and social characteristics, Darwin proposed, was due to the environmental conditions in which groups lived, and advancement in civilization was a by-product of competition among groups. Further, the harsher the environment, the more inventiveness was required for survival.
https://psycnet.apa.org/doi/10.1037/a0013502--Katya72918 (talk) 06:12, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for responding positively to my message on your talk page. Unfortunately, there seems to be a misunderstanding: This talk page is not for providing sources, but for discussing how to improve the article. The sources should be added to the article itself in the form of references, see Help:References. Since at least one of your 4 sources is a primary source, you might also want to look at WP:PSTS. Finally, I think text based on your sources should not be added to the section Historical_race_concepts#Disproof_by_modern_genetics, but it might be possible to add it to the section Historical_race_concepts#Charles_Darwin_and_race (which I didn't check, so I'm not sure about that). --Rsk6400 (talk) 11:16, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  But Isn't that single line is coming from your interpretation and cherrypicking of a primary source(Darwins Book).--Katya72918 (talk) 13:09, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: To be honest, I didn't see that before. But I don't think it's a real problem, since the section focuses on the arguments for the rejection of distinct races by modern biology. And the sentence about Darwin and Blumenbach only states that one of the central arguments was already observed by them. --Rsk6400 (talk) 16:33, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it is a big problem. First you are interpreting a primary source incorrectly. Besides there is a huge difference between Darwin's argument about race and modern anthropology.I think it should be removed or added more context.--Katya72918 (talk) 12:14, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The interpretation given in the text (not by me, though) is  Please explain why that should be wrong. --Rsk6400 (talk) 13:06, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Because that is not book says.The exact wording is   This is not equal to "there are no sharp distinctions between the supposed racial groups" .Your interpretation of Darwin sentence directly contradicts his view on difference between races on cranial capacity and intelligence(as I quoted above).What he probably means that there are variations within races even for characteristics that are popularly believed to be belong to certain race--Katya72918 (talk) 17:25, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: PLease reply why you still haven't edited it back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Katya72918 (talk • contribs) 20:11, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit on Darwin's views on race 

message: The section on the Middle Ages uncritically endorses the view that anti-Black racism originates from the Talmud, which is a view that not even the cited source endorses. I think that section badly needs a re-write and additional sources. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:56, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Some material from Curse of Ham#Racism and slavery section can be inserted as they see fit. --WikiLinuz {talk} 14:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Judaism and race