Talk:Oder/Archive 3

message: Older discussion is available at Talk:Oder River/Archive1 and Talk:Oder River/Archive 2
This debate was leading nowhere, as I think we all expected. IMO, now would be as appropriate as ever to digest the whole thing down to the opposing views and take a vote on a solution.
I propose we vote and anybody who so wishes can add a closing statement on the issue. Please do not reply or expect to get a reply - these are closing statements, not continued debate. We should let the vote last for a while and post it in Wikipedia:Village pump and other appropriate places to get more people to review the issue and take a stand.
And I think this would be a good time for everybody to cool down, consider why other people think what they think, do something else for a while and generally be absent from this talk page for a couple of days. --- Zocky
----
==Vote==
I list points of view and proposed solutions. Vote for solutions with ~~~. If none of the options fit, vote on the most appropriate one and note your problem in up to 10 words
=== View A ===
For historical reasons it is politically incorrect and offensive to use originally German names for anything in Poland. Polish names should be used instead.
=== View B ===
Because this encyclopedia is in English, commonly used English names should be used in preference to Polish names. The fact that some are originally German is coincidental and inconsequential.
=== Solution 1 ===
Use Polish names in article titles and articles themselves, give info on other names.
* Supporters:
=== Solution 2 ===
Use commonly used English names in article titles. Use Polish names in article titles and articles themselves, give info on other names.
* Supporters: 24.2.152.139
=== Solution 3 ===
Use English names for Cracow/Krakow(?), Neisse, Oder, Tatra, Vistula, and Warsaw. Consider this list final. Use Polish names for everything else.
* Supporters:
=== Solution 4 ===
Use English names for proper names when those names are more commonly used by English speakers than local names.  In Poland those are: Cracow/Krakow(?), Neisse, Oder, Tatra, Vistula, and Warsaw. This list is to be expanded only through research and discussion and reasonable consensus.
* Supporters: Zocky, Daniel Quinlan, Angela. RickK, "Oder" is an official english name (as of 2003), to be used even to describe times when the river flown through the middle of the Slavic land and nobody dreamed about any Germans (with the name "Odra" in parentheses once! Same with Gdansk - whichever period we talk about we use the name Gdansk (with the name "Danzig" once). Space Cadet,  Secretlondon, Salsa Shark, jimfbleak, Adam Bishop, Nico
note: I assume that everybody agrees that other names should be used in historical contexts, where relevant. If not, discuss it in your closing statement, but don't debate it.
== Closing statements ==
Add your closing statements below. It is acceptable to refine your statement, but please don't use this to continue the debate (e.g. by replying to specific points of other contributors).
=== by Zocky ===
As said earlier, I'm inclined to support Slavic interests, but I see no Slavic interest here. This is basically a meta dispute about what English language is like. I think it should be mostly left up to native speakers of English, plus thorough research.
Just some things to consider:
* This is not Poland-specific
** Koeln is consistently called by its French name Cologne, in spite of being in Germany
** River Dueres is consistently called by its Portuguese name Douro, although it runs mostly through Spain
** Ditto Corsica and Vienna.
* If UK was the only native English speaking country, there would exist a real chance to convince people to switch to Polish names. Britons are geographically and historically linked to Europe. But Americans, Australians and other speakers of English are far less likely to be sensitive, have an opinion, or be bothered. They will just continue to use what they have used so far.
* The fact that other languages, including English, have different names for places in your country is not bad - it means that those places are internationally famous and important. It's something to be proud of, really.
* The fact that some of those names sound the same as German ones or have indeed come to English through German is really not important, nor that interesting.
On a more reflexive note, did we achieve anything? Well, the article on Oder is looking much better now then a couple of days ago, and maybe we're even on a way to achieve a more general consensus. Not such a bad job, people.
Zocky 02:31, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Google has 145,000 hits for Cracow in English and 848,000 for Krakow.  I never even heard of Cracow until seeing it on this page.  RickK 16:28, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oder/Odra debate 

message: Add your closing statements below. It is acceptable to refine your statement, but please don't use this to continue the debate (e.g. by replying to specific points of other contributors).
=== by Zocky ===
As said earlier, I'm inclined to support Slavic interests, but I see no Slavic interest here. This is basically a meta dispute about what English language is like. I think it should be mostly left up to native speakers of English, plus thorough research.
Just some things to consider:
* This is not Poland-specific
** Koeln is consistently called by its French name Cologne, in spite of being in Germany
** River Dueres is consistently called by its Portuguese name Douro, although it runs mostly through Spain
** Ditto Corsica and Vienna.
* If UK was the only native English speaking country, there would exist a real chance to convince people to switch to Polish names. Britons are geographically and historically linked to Europe. But Americans, Australians and other speakers of English are far less likely to be sensitive, have an opinion, or be bothered. They will just continue to use what they have used so far.
* The fact that other languages, including English, have different names for places in your country is not bad - it means that those places are internationally famous and important. It's something to be proud of, really.
* The fact that some of those names sound the same as German ones or have indeed come to English through German is really not important, nor that interesting.
On a more reflexive note, did we achieve anything? Well, the article on Oder is looking much better now then a couple of days ago, and maybe we're even on a way to achieve a more general consensus. Not such a bad job, people.
Zocky 02:31, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Google has 145,000 hits for Cracow in English and 848,000 for Krakow.  I never even heard of Cracow until seeing it on this page.  RickK 16:28, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Closing statements 

message: As said earlier, I'm inclined to support Slavic interests, but I see no Slavic interest here. This is basically a meta dispute about what English language is like. I think it should be mostly left up to native speakers of English, plus thorough research.
Just some things to consider:
* This is not Poland-specific
** Koeln is consistently called by its French name Cologne, in spite of being in Germany
** River Dueres is consistently called by its Portuguese name Douro, although it runs mostly through Spain
** Ditto Corsica and Vienna.
* If UK was the only native English speaking country, there would exist a real chance to convince people to switch to Polish names. Britons are geographically and historically linked to Europe. But Americans, Australians and other speakers of English are far less likely to be sensitive, have an opinion, or be bothered. They will just continue to use what they have used so far.
* The fact that other languages, including English, have different names for places in your country is not bad - it means that those places are internationally famous and important. It's something to be proud of, really.
* The fact that some of those names sound the same as German ones or have indeed come to English through German is really not important, nor that interesting.
On a more reflexive note, did we achieve anything? Well, the article on Oder is looking much better now then a couple of days ago, and maybe we're even on a way to achieve a more general consensus. Not such a bad job, people.
Zocky 02:31, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Google has 145,000 hits for Cracow in English and 848,000 for Krakow.  I never even heard of Cracow until seeing it on this page.  RickK 16:28, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  by [[User:Zocky|Zocky]] 

message: May I a suggest a compromise proposal
1) This article is stored under the name Oder-Odra river with the present content
2) The following pages will be made into redirects into the above page:
* Oder River
* Oder river
* Oder
* Odra River
* Odra river
* Odra
3) Articles about German cities, regions and other features in Germany will refer to Oder river, for example
* Frankfurt an der Oder
* Brandenburg
4) Articles about Polish cities, regions and other features in Poland will refer to Odra river, for example
* Szczecin
* Lubusz Voivodship
I think this will satisfy all sides and will make our work possible. The alternative is to use both names, eg. Oder/Odra which I don't like, and/or continous edit-wars, which I strongly dislike. What do you think? -- CC, 00:33, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oder/Odra compromise proposal