Talk:The Defeat of the Floating Batteries at Gibraltar, September 1782

message: I have removed the following language from this article, since it has little or nothing to do with the subject Copley intended to portray.  Instead, General Eliott is shown directing the rescue of the Spanish sailors from the Bay of Algeciras after the floating batteries were in flames, and the sailors had leapt into the sea to save themselves, as is indicated by any good Copley study.  I have inserted as a ref the key to the painting from the Guildhall Museum.
to make a grandiloquent gesture at the burning Spanish fleet.  In the midst of the slaughter and costumed posturing, the horse acts as a pastoral symbol strayed into a battle scene.
 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pilch62 (talk • contribs) 
:Alright; it's better now. -- Chris B • talk • contribs 13:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, and sorry I forgot to sign. Pilch62 21:57, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Silly art-historical nonsense

message: Spanish Vice-Admiral Don Antonio Barcelo tested a new weapon on 26 june 1780, he attacked the british Panther ship with it. this is about new guns mounted on sloops, this article claims the spanish introduced it in 1782 which is not correct since it was 2 years before. i have a digital copy of the 1780 newspaper reporting the operation in case. Olecrab (talk) 18:17, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: ship's captain was George Duff (source: september 1779 newspaper). Olecrab (talk) 20:05, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not so sure about this, see Talk:HMS Panther. Benea (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought it dubious, claiming sunk in 1780 when it served long after that.  Justin talk 23:21, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody said she "sunk", it is reported that she was damaged (her body and Mast (sailing)). I have the swiss old newspaper, can both of you read Old French? I can give the newspaper then. Oh and where are your source for her service? Olecrab (talk) 09:54, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:RS, WP:CIVIL.  HMS Panther points to her use as a hospital ship in 1791.  My wife is a French linguist so I would imagine she can have a go at reading it.  Justin talk 10:01, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Good, then here it is (and here). i think harvard university scanned books are fair sources. I've translated Old French to Modern French in the french wiki article for don antonio barcelo if needed. Thanks for the link but I'm not sure this is the right HMS Panther, could be this sloop that don't have an article yet. Newspapers report the said Panther was headed by Admiral George Duff. knowing the captain for this hospital ship would settle things. Olecrab (talk) 10:52, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

text: btw admiral Duff was actually Robert Duff. Olecrab (talk) 11:21, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You're only partly right, your newspapers have faulty intelligence, and this shows the dangers of relying on primary sources. Duff had been aboard Panther, but wasn't on 26 June. Your papers did not keep up with events. It was the fourth rate Panther that was damaged, but Duff had already returned to England. I've explained at Talk:HMS Panther. Benea (talk) 12:34, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: answered you on the proper talk page. Olecrab (talk) 08:46, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: secret weapon

message: there's nothing about the support by morroco which supplied the bessieged garrison. how do you think the british were able to stand for 4 years without external supply? ordering foods and water through amazon.co.uk maybe? don barcelo did blockade the gibraltar bay and prevented vessels to help the british. Olecrab (talk) 08:46, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a logical fallacy at work here. How can 'don barcelo did blockade the gibraltar bay and prevented vessels to help the british' and at the same time Morocco be sending supplies? The answer is that supplies were indeed being brought in from across the straits, and from other sources, bringing into question the overall effectiveness of this blockade, even when there wasn't the main British fleet to force the blockading craft away. I'd encourage you to widen your reading beyond this newspaper, which as I've explained, not only makes some elementary errors, but is not a good source to use anyway per WP:PRIMARY, and any biases such a source produced at such a time would have. Let's look at a typical month in the Gibraltar garrison, July 1780, as reported in John Drinkwater's A History of the Siege of Gibraltar, 1779-1783. That month Barcelo made two assaults, on the 7th, when an assault by 5 fireships failed to inflict any damage, and on the 27th when this much vaunted attack with new weapons as you put it (four gunboats, a xebec and two galleys) inflicts some slight damage. Also that month we read that 'On the morning of the 8th, arrived the Fox packet, and another vessel from Faro; and in the course of the 10th and 12th, four boats came in from Tetuan and Tangiers with various cargoes.' The blockading forces did capture a number of the supply ships, but plenty made it through to bring supplies. This statement that the Barcelo was preventing vessels from reaching the garrison does not stand up. Benea (talk) 09:43, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: your are a joke calling non british sources "biased" while you are the one using totally biased sources. of course only a british would know the truth right? that's why your only source is John Drinkwater which is a british army officer... how surprising! you are totally ridiculous using POV and first party sources. that's against WP:TPS policy. now about the external support newspapers report:  
*3 or 4 small ships from the african coast delivered supply to the bessieged garrison on May 1780
*12 british ships brought supply to the bessieged garrison on september 1780 and 2 other ships were captured.
it is known that barcelo did several night attacks on gibraltar since the siege is well documented: may 10 1780, june 7 1780, 26 june 1780 etc.
also the so-called floating batteries were devised by french engineer Jean-Claude Eleonor Le Michaud. barcelo did invented another kind of weapon called "lancha cañonera" which was first tested on june 26 1780 against the hms panther. .
Olecrab (talk) 21:12, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: what about Morocco's support?