Talk:Progressive Judaism

message: I have revised this article extensively to provide a representation that uses less prejudicial language and is, I believe, more reflective of how Progressive Jews see themselves.  The following changes have been made:
# The lead sentence has been revised to reflect the beliefs stated by the World Union for Progressive Judaism and supported in numerous regional FAQs and statements of belief.  Each of these have been cited. I urge anyone wanting to revise the lead sentence to review these statements before doing so.
# The paragraphs attempting to enumerate Progressive beliefs has been replace with a section emphasizing the historic and regional variety of beliefs. Although there are common themes (as evidenced by the lead sentence), any brief uncited attempt to detail beliefs will inevitably run into problems of prejudice and oversimplification.  The Judaism articles are riddled with such statements and I think it important that we not reinforce them in this article.  Progressive belief and practice is intellectually and psychologically complex.  It cannot be reduced to a few catch phrases any more than can Orthodox Jewish belief.  It is far too easy to take potshots at each other when we allow ourselves such oversimplifications.  Therefore I beg anyone wanting to expand this section to read sources carefully and make sure you are aware of complex issues (example of one such complex topic: how progressive Jews experience a sense of commandness and obligation without the need to resort to traditional beliefs about the authorship of the Torah).
# The two paragraphs under "Belief and Practice" have numerous uncited statements.  At least one of these (the assertion that Progressive tradition has its roots in the earliest layers of Jewish tradition) is likely to be highly controversal and disturbing to some readers.  I ask editors' patience. While this statement is vehemently disavowed by many, if not most, Orthodox Jews, the idea that Judaism has repeatedly integrated the beliefs of surrounding peoples is fundamental almost to the point of assumption in much of biblical scholarship and to many scholars of the Jewish historico-critical school. I will add appropriate citations (if someone hasn't done it already for me :-)) over the next week or so. 
# I request that editors who feel strongly negative about statements in this revision, express those concern using appropriate cited statements in an "Orthodox criticism" section and let progressive Judaism speak in its own voice in the section on beliefs and practices.  I have expressed my reservations elsewhere about the practice of including "Orthodox criticism" sections, but for now that seems to be the current practice. (I don't like the idea of war breaking out should some Progressive Jews decide to start adding "Progressive criticism" sections)
# I have also expanded the list of progressive organizations to give a better feel for the global reach and organizational complexity of the progressive movement.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Egfrank (talk • contribs) 11:52, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanations of revisions as of October 7, 2007 

message: *Importance: changed to top - this is one of three major streams of contemporary Judaism
*Class: changed to stub - there is a *huge* amount of material missing on Progressive beliefs.
Egfrank 13:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change to Judaism assessment 

message: HG, This is a good try - however it is actually not consistent with the literature.  The history doesn't really work like that.  Hegel and Kant's impact was somewhat indirect for example.  A very good survey of their impact can be found in Borowitz's Renewing the Covenant.  The first third of the book is a very dense review of secular universalism and its impact on the German and American reforming movements.
The terms "liberal" and "reform" developed later and exist in many countries (German, Netherlands, even the US!) with many meanings.  I disagree with your edits but it is my personal policy to only change existing edits (especially well meaning one's like yours) when I'm ready to add cited material.  
In the meantime, I encourage you to read further and revise your comments.  A very good source is Michael Meyer's Response to Modernity.  This is probably considered as standard a work as any.  However, I would not rely on only one source.  It is a good idea to check the literature for historians who have clarified, debated, extended or disagreed with him. 
You might also want to take a look at some of the discussions between User:Wolf2191 and myself at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Progressive Judaism#Abraham Geiger and Leopold Zunz. It discusses in some detail problems relating to beliefs and organization names.  Kol tuv, Egfrank 14:56, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, go Bold here. I'm not planning to work on this article much, sorry, or defend my edits. Just a little nudge to try to inspire you and others to build this section. L'hit, HG | Talk 15:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As stated below, my suggestion here was imprecise. Sorry. HG | Talk 01:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Fair enough - its not the first time I've been accused of getting stuck in the planning stage. :-) Thanks. Egfrank 15:20, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PS Not sure if you noticed that my edits just condensed the main articles' texts. Except for the throwaway line on Kant, who is surely a factor, but maybe not mentioned in the main article. HG | Talk 15:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

text:  I did notice. :-) Egfrank 15:45, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of belief 

message: Please see the present discussions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/open tasks#WikiProject Judaism needs help - geographical bias concerns. Your input would be greatly appreciated. (They are the result of discussions that unfolded at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Concern about duplicating Reform and Progressive labels.) Thank you, IZAK 09:19, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serious discussions about using the names Reform vs. Progressive Judaism 

message: Hi! As the various content issues appear to have developed over the last few weeks, want to suggest that this project might benefit from taking advantage of some Wikipedia's dispute resolution procedures. Among other possibiilities, Wikipedia has a mediation cabal, a group of informal mediators who attempt to mediate on a strictly voluntary basis; there is also a formal Wikipedia:Mediation committee and process. Perhaps you might want to consider one of the more informal approaches. Since Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism editors tend to be a bit opinionated, there might be value in taking advantage of what Wikipedia has to offer and finding a mediator who is divorced from the subject and who simply helps you clarify and negotiate the various issues. Best, --Shirahadasha 04:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The process was started last night - see . If you have some suggestions of how to word a request so that it is more likely to get interest, recommend away. Egfrank 05:18, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation? 

message: I've restored the cited material, fixed some links, and expanded the information on regional differences.  
I've also put back section headings since these are supported by a citation and filled them in with bullet items.  They are in place to invite others to add what they know about the common beliefs shared by the various regional movements (hint, hint). Egfrank  —Preceding comment was added at 13:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  /* Beliefs and Practices */ explaination of restored material, expansions 

message: I would say that this is closely bound up with the history of the Haskalah. Shmuel Feiner has some excellent books on the subject. He writes for instance that the Haskalah predates Mendelssohn by decades, Mendelssohn at most attempted to direct existing Enlightment trends in the direction of tradition. I would say that the intellectual history in terms of philosophy starts wth Mendelssohn in the 17th century (particulary his distinction between natural universal law and national ceremonial laws). Then continues with his students {notably David Friedlander. Geiger, Holdheim, et. al. were only further modulating existing trends.Wolf2191 06:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Very interesting - it makes a lot of sense.  Meyer (Response to Modernity) says pretty much what you said about Mendelssohn but he doesn't really elaborate.  I wonder if you would be willing to add a summary (with citations and wiki links) to the German Reform movement (Judaism)? - there is also a section on the development of the Historical-Critical school that could probably use your well-read eye. Egfrank 08:06, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Intellectual history

message: The main article link has been removed.  The article is still under development, has serious problems with synthesis, bias, WP:UNDUE, errors of fact, and non-sequitors.  Though I am sure the editor working on the article will eventually fix these problems, the article is not yet mature enough to function as a main article for Progressive Judaism beliefs and practices.  Egfrank 03:03, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beliefs and practices - main article 

message: A user removed this paragraph under the mistaken impression that its purpose was polemical.  The book "Liberal Judaism" which is cited in the deleted section is a classic presentation of American non-orthodox thought by the noted theologian Eugene Borowitz. The following google hits show that the term has use outside of Borowitz with roughly the same meaning (US Reform+Reconstructionist+Conservative) Judaism:
* About: Liberal Judaism on Homosexuality 
* [http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/5950/edition_id/111/format/html
/displaystory.html Israelis indifferent to conversion bill, liberal Judaism]
* mail.Liberal-Judaism, FAQ  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Egfrank (talk • contribs) 14:52, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  US Liberal - evidence of usage outside of Borowitz 

message: The article should maybe explain how Liberal Judaism relates to in the interfaith movement. I have often read that Liberal Jews prefer association with Liberal Christians and Liberals from other religions, it is very much understandable. ADM (talk) 17:53, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Interfaith

message: Now that Google Ngram is out, though this comparison of terms would be relevant.
http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content=Reform+Judaism%2CProgressive+Judaism&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=2
Thanks. HG | Talk 17:17, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Comparison of Reform Judaism and Progressive Judaism as prevalent terms

message: I am wondering why the Yiddish translatin of Progressive Judaism is given as reform yidishkeyt. I would have expected that this is the translation of Reform Judaism. How about progresive yidishkeyt? Well, there is no entry in Google of פראזרעסיוע יידישקייַט, and the web site of the World Union does not have anything in Yiddish, so I would suggest to scrap the Yiddish translation of the title.  Andreas  (T) 15:18, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yiddish name 

message: The article implies a "common identity" for Reconstructionist and Reform. While they share much in the rhetorical field ("peace, love, yada yada") it's also true to many liberal religions. However, "Progressive Judaism" another appellation for what is known as "Reform" in America and "Liberal" in Europe between 1926 and 1990, when the Recos joined the WUPJ. Reform worldwide affirms a personal God, at least technically, a belief in some sort of revelation and other stuff that the Recos reject. This profound theological differences, and also the complete lack of concrete clarifications about the nature of the movement here ("embrace pluralism, modernity, equality and social justice as core values and believe that such values are consistent with a committed Jewish life" - a lot of yada yada), justify turning this article into a disambiguation, more or less along these lines. In addition, the article has very little concrete date, focusing on history and organisational structure. AddMore der Zweite (talk) 22:55, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll also add that the section "A common progressive identity" is named after a chapter in Michael A. Meyer's book "Response to Modernity: A History of the Reform Movement in Judaism", written in 1988, even before the Recos joined (something which eluded the writers of this article, as they assumed that RecoJ already participated in 1926). He barely discusses them. AddMore der Zweite (talk) 07:12, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge or turn into a redirect