Talk:Elfen Lied/Archive 1

message: Hello. Does anybody own the DVDs and know what ADV's official titles for the episodes are? I made the english episode titles correspond with tv.com's listing (here) but I see somebody has reverted to the old titles. I think it would be most accurate to list the titles as they appear on the dvd, rathing than from some website's that may just be fansubber's translations of the japanese or german. - Phorque 05:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Episode list 

message: At the conclusion of Elfen Lied, there are a number of unanswered aspects about the story:
#What are the origins and purpose of the Diclonius?
#Was Lucy the first Diclonius?  Several characters refer to Lucy as the queen, but whether or not this is true, and what implications it has for the early history of the Diclonius are left obscure.
#Why do the president of the secret organization and his son both have horns on their head? 
:Secret organization? Can we give it a name?
Hi, Phorque here. Firstly: not all of these are unanswered. Make sure you've read the manga AND watched the anime before labling these as loose ends in the plot. There's also the chance you may have misunderstood. I myself have watched the anime, but only read up to chapter 19 of the manga. I don't even know if loose ends in the plot have a place in the article, at least, not as an entire section unto themselves.
Here are some things I do know:
#The diclonius are a "genetic defect" of sorts (some kind of next step in evolution) that usually dies out after one generation. This defect, however, can be passed on like a virus to affect somebody else's offspring (for example: Director Kurama).
#Lucy is the first diclonius with the ability to reproduce, thus making her "their queen" (meaning she could populate the earth with reproduction capable diclonius).
#The president and his son (i think) somehow infected themselves with the Diclonius virus in order to become the "kings" of the diclonius or something to that effect.
I, SwordKirby537, have not read the complete manga but I have heard that from people who have read it a few answers to those questions. The manga continues quite aways past where the anime ends, thus expanding on the story quite a bit. NOTE: Please forgive me if my answers are off, since I have never read it myself and don't have anyway of proving these statements, other than that I have heard them multiple times from those who have completed the manga. If any of these answers are off, then please, do correct them.
#I have heard that the Diclonius came to be about 1000 years ago when aliens did experiments or bred with humans (can't remember which). I have infact read in the manga that Kurama states that "Diclonius are a new species chosen by God", which implies that thier purpose is, infact, to replace humans.
#Lucy is not the first Diclonius, but I think she is the first one that can reproduce, like Phorque said.
#I think that the Director and his son have horns as a genetic triat found in their family's bloodline that dates back to some time during the samurai era. I am unaware of why their family has this trait and how its connected to traditional Diclonius.
:::Hi Phorque here. I have read up to chapter 40 of the manga and discovered that the Director and his son are both from a long line of Diclonius whose potency has been watered down over generations by interbreeding with humans. The director's son explains this before he is beheaded by Lucy (this is omitted in the anime). The manga seems to explain everything but we'll need some japanese-speaking person to explain it all to us as only 40 chapters have been scanlated into english. -Phorque 18:05, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unanswered Questions 

message: We don't really need three images for this article. I think just a description is fine, so we should keep just one.
*:Image:Elfen_Lied_ep2_Vectors.jpg
*:Image:Elfen_Lied_ep4_Lucy.jpg
*:Image:Elfen_Lied_ep4_Nyuu.jpg
 — Kieff | Talk 07:28, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)
:Hi Do we have a burning need not to have three images? They don't float down past the text, and they all illustrate something different. I wanted to show that Nyuu/Lucy is rendered differently when a different personality is dominant, and what the vectors look like. I think all three of the pictures add something. --grendel|khan 09:51, 2004 Dec 25 (UTC)
::Well, guess not. Let them there then. I fixed the images, btw.  — Kieff | Talk
:::I must agree that the article is a bit cluttered with images, several of which really aren't necessary to illustrate any points in the article. At the very least, I think someone should consider alternating which sides the images appear on, so they're not just in a huge column. --InShaneee 20:52, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You can probably just create one image and combine the 3 faces together to show all 3 in one, eliminating the clutter and retaining what you want from them. you can photoshop them in like 5 minutes, I'll do it soon.Tik 16:20, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: Ok, I changed "Nyuu" to "Nyu", and added more context as discussed here, I hope it's a good, objective, compromise. --Louis
:I just edited the above for format. Louis, you can (should) sign your posts using four tildes (~~~~). You write those in the edit window, and they are turned into your username and date-time. The indenting is done using colons (:), one per indent level. See the editing help for details.
:I believe the Japanese transcription was にゅう, usually romanized nyuu or nyū (with a long u sound), but it may be simply pedantic to reproduce such nuances given that we're talking about a random, nonsense word. I say let's keep "Nyu" throughout the article, unless someone objects... --Pablo D. Flores 20:17, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Most fansubbers subbed it as "nyuu" so I'd say we should have "nyū" to emphasize the long u. not just "nyu". Phorque 11:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Phorque.  There is an actual pronunciation difference between "Nyu" and "Nyū."  I suppose the biggest problem with this, however, is having to specify the diacritic.  "uu" is a way to specify the long-u sound in regular ASCII text, though "ū" is preferred when diacritics are available such as in Unicode.  --Kuronekoyama 18:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Nyuu' or 'Nyu'? 

message: I added some information to the section dealing with the opening song, but for some reason that was removed. Why is that? My information is accurate. Lilium is not released in a full-version, only a short 1 minute 30 second version is officially available. DarkJedi2 on the Rizon IRC network proved how incomplete it is by making several extended versions using parts of the song he obtained in various ways. His mixes are flawless, and prove how much of the song is actually missing from the version we all know. His last version (his 8th release) is 5 minutes and 38 seconds long, and is titled "Lilium ~Extended DarkJedi Edition - Final Mix~", which he describes as a tweaked version of his 7th mix.
I believe this is important information. If people want to hear what the near-complete version sounds like, this is the only person who's worth talking to about this. He is often available in #elfenlied on Rizon, he is an op there. Please add this information back in.
Thanks.  -- (posted by anonymous IP user)
:You might try reading the article history for a change:
:13:00, August 18, 2005 Pablo-flores m (rv edits by 219.89.91.177 to last version by Voievod (unsourced, non-notable, possibly vanity))
:*Non-notable: it's got quite next to nothing to do with the series. It's like giving an extra section or the "Ride of the Valkyries" as played in Apocalypse now, or elaborating that various uses of parts of Beethoven's 9th Symphony are actually only excerpts from an hour-long symphony.
:*Vanity: For all we know, you could be this "DarkJedi2" person you speak of. Especially with that sweet-talking.
:*Unsourced: Let's face it, saying that some nick on IRC did something is dubious at best. "DarkJedi2" as the name of a source is slightly better than "hansolo42". --towo 09:20, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
It's worth noting that the Elfen Lied OST does indeed include an extended version of Lilium, entitled Lilium ~saint version~. This one is sung by the GRIFFIN Chorus, an all-male ensemble.  I'm unable to find a listing for the OST itself, but from what I can piece together from the official Japanese website, it seems to have shipped as a part of the Limited Edition volume 1 in Japan.  ADV makes no mention of it on their series page, but several enthusiast groups, most notably Nipponsei, have offered up a digital version of the CD over various P2P networks. -- Halbyrd 09:51, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This DarkJedi figure didn't try to produce a full version or anything... he just made a remix of several separate versions. Shinobu 07:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lilium 

message: I've heard this series borrows heavily from Chobits. If someone familiar with both could add a section talking about this, i think it'd be interesting. --Brian Kendig 21:57, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the only real similarity is that the main character starts the show wearing no clothes and repeating a single nonsense word. --Shiroi Hane 02:24, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've watched all of Chobits and only the first episode of Elfen Lied, but I see a few more similarities: the main character (a beautiful woman) was created for a specific purpose and contains a terrible power, but hides that behind an artificial personality which is an unaware innocent - she has a dual personality; the darker side only manifests itself under certain circumstances. The people who take in this beautiful woman are unaware of her power and work to teach her language and behavior skills, while the people who know her secret are out to find her. --Brian Kendig 15:32, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: They are thematicaly similar, and there are specific elements in common, but I don't know that it "borrows heavily". There are many many anime series that focus on destructively testing the human psyche in attempt to approach an answer to the identity question (who/what are we, what is human, etc). --Ashmedai 18:40, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Is it just me, or are girls that can only say one word and keep repeating a new fad in anime? Look at Yumelia, for instance. -Iopq 10:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When I first heard Lucy say "nyu" I thought "Oh no, not another Chobits."  Not that Chobits was a bad show, but I wasn't in the mood for listening to a high pitched voice chant the same line over and over.  But the way in which she changed personalities suprised me.  At first she would be a cute and innocent girl in odd clothes, but would suddenly turn into a lethal and sexy badass.  Her angry face and voice has that mature woman charm to it, but she was still capable of that cute and happy aura that makes you want to hug her.  My ex was like that.  Only instead of sexy badass, she was a fat angry witch when she was upset. ElijahD 14:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Similarities to ''Chobits'' 

message: Is "diclonius" a proper noun or an adjective or what? Should it be capitalized or not? --Maru  (talk) Contribs 18:18, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It refers to a species so usually it would be a common noun. You could also use it as a proper noun or an adjective but the construction could be awkward. --Ashmedai 18:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Diclonius isnt defined as a species, really.  It's treated as both a disease and a genetic mutation.  A new species must be able to procreate with its own.  If it is infact a species, then perhaps the correct term would be Homo diclonius, by standards of binomial nomenclature.  I think using Diclonius as both a proper noune and adjective works as it can be used to describe a very specific type of people. ElijahD 14:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capitalization 

message: If they know that they can't control what they create, Why were they created in the first place? I mean they do have the to kill those scintist  because the were abuse by them and treated like dogs. That's the one i don't like about this anime. Because of the lack of love and understand they kill. --Anon
:I don't think that the Diclonius were created through artificial means.  Although there is no indication either way, it seems like the diclonius are a natural evolution of humans.  However they (except Lucy) lack the means of natural reproduction (they propagate through infecting other humans).  It can be argued that they are not created since nobody seems to understand much about them or their powers.  I think you're missing one of the points of the show, which is to show the two sides of the nature (Lucy and Mariko) vs nurture (Nana) argument. -Js2756 02:51, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You dont the lack of love and understanding?  Neither do they.  That's why they kill.  Why do humans go so far just to destroy themselves?  Nobody knows.  There seems to be some sort of human reflex to become self destructive. ElijahD 14:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why? 

message: I'm moving the spoiler section down. There are no spoilers in the introduction.  (Nor should there ever be, in any article. ^_^)  If someone thinks there's a spoiler in the intro, that information should be relocated.  --Starwed 07:02, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spoiler warning in the main article 

message: Well, I only have one right now, but there might be others:
-The link to "Mayhem" in the characters section (talking about Nana being dismembered)leads to a disambiguation page (in which I couldn't find a link pertaining to elfen lied)
:That should probably link to Wiktionary. It's not well-known, but mayhem is actually derived from Middle English, and is a variant of "maim"- meaning to lose limbs. --maru  (talk) contribs 18:06, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unspecified Links 

message: :"In most English translations there was a mistake made with "close friend" being replaced with "cousin". This is the cause of much confusion among English fans, who believe that she is in an incestuous relationship with Kouta, when in fact, she is just a close friend."
States that 'Close-Friend' was mixed up with 'Cousin', but during a flash back in the last DVD, Yuka clearly calls Kouta's Dad 'Uncle'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Erufen (talk • contribs) 
:That may or may not mean anything; I know that as a kid, I often called people Uncles and Aunts even if they were simply family friends. Haven't we all seen an anime in which a young kid addressed an older male as "Onee-san"? --maru   (talk)  contribs 17:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I'm familiar with customs like that. Dunno about Japan, but at least here in South Africa it's not uncommon to call older family friends "Aunty" or "Uncle" and some people even use "my cousin" as an informal "my friend". So it's plausible that it's a mis-translation but we'd need a citation to make it concrete. - Phorque 20:43, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, I just thought that Yuka and Kouta being cousins added alot to the storyline, well what i saw it as, and have read, it shows the flaws of humans. Is there any sources stating that it has been a mistranslation? i'm just wondering is all. --Erufen 09:58, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I thought that them beign cousins made sense. In the first episode, I dont think someone would go up to someone and say "Im your childhood friend". Then again Ill have to check the original Japanese dialogue. -- Psi edit 12:31, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not like incest never happens in anime in the first place. I'm beginning to doubt this "error" more and more. -  10:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, i watched that last night and thought the same thing, also, why would Kouta's whole family go to visit a best friend in another town, if there just 'best friends' how did they even meet? Erufen 01:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I can't check right now, but Yuka probably calls Kouta's dad "O-ji-san" which both means "Uncle" and "middle-age man". Just like onisan or oneesan can be used for one's brother and sister, or for a young man or woman Freon 08:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, they are cousins, so it is incest (depending on your definition).  I'm removing this "translation error" bit and changing the description to list her as Kohta's cousin.  In the first episode, when meeting him, she tells him: "床です。　従妹の。 (Yuka desu.  Itoko no.)"  "Itoko" is, very specifically, cousin.  Note--incest is a very popular subject in anime, and around the world it isn't looked upon with the same sort of disdain as in the majority of English-speaking countries.  --Kuronekoyama 02:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I will add a footnote with this being explained. Some anonymous just reverted it to the childhood friend story again. -  10:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for footnoting it. --70.127.189.112 18:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation errors? 

message: I've uploaded a new picture for Professor Kazukawa I screencapped from episode 10 of the anime, shown here.  Because it's a screencap instead of a scan, the quality is slightly less than what's already there, but I think the camera angle and overall mood of the image is closer to that used in the front-view dossier-like pictures for all the other characters.  Anybody have feelings on this either way, would prefer to see this or what's already there?
:Yeah, it's a pity he's at an odd angle in the pic, but that's all the official character images had of him. I'm kind of against the loss of quality in this one but if everyone prefers it over the other, go ahead. - Phorque 05:43, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I like the one in the article better. -Iopq 10:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prof. Kazukawa picture 

message: In several parts of the opening credits, Lucy is shown with one of her hands forming a specific sign/symbol (whatever you want to call it).  Does anyone know if there is accually any symbolism behind this?  Or am i just seeing things?  They do it a lot though so i assumed that it must mean something.  The closest thing i can think of would be a gang hand-sign that symbolized the "West Side" in the united states, but its not quite the same i think, and im sure thats not what it represents in this case...Anyway just wondered if anyone had any ideas.  --Aaronsjet 19:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hand Symbols 

message: In the article I've read that Elfen Lied would be slightly misspelled German for Elf Song. However, if you would consider it might be Dutch instead of German, then there is no problem with the spelling, and the meaning is not altered.  
Are we certain there were translation errors?
I removed that small notice. From looking at the Lied article. There doesnt seem to a translation error. -- Psi edit 21:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Both in German and in Dutch it should be spelled "Elfenlied". Considering the reference to the poem, it's probably German. Shinobu 08:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title errors? 

message: Just added a quick note to the anime section of the mainpage saying that EL will start on British TV on June 3rd on the Propeller Sky channel (specifically, 9:30pm) Sephjnr 19:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is that a "normal" channel or satellite?--Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 01:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Satellite only (Sky Digital) Sephjnr 09:27, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  UK airing 

message: I have mentioned in the article a possible relation between the ending song text and Yuka's jealousy. However, this is just an idea of mine, so I wanted to mention it here so that I can be corrected (in case this is needed). I do not know Japanese but I have an edition with full Italian subtitles, so I've seen in the lyrics sentences like "say I'm the only girl for you".
--Blaisorblade 14:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:OR states that unless it's been verified by the creator(s) or published in a reputable third-party source, it shouldn't be added to Wikipedia. Yes, the song is from the perspective of a girl who wants a certain guy to ask her to be 'his', but that doesn't mean it's necessarily picked for that. The song came before the series. Nique talk 14:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ending theme 

message: The vast majority of anime review pages out there spell it "Nyuu" as far as I can see so I'm thinking of changing that. ætərnal ðrAعon → 08:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How is it subtitled?--SeizureDog 01:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I've only seen the Madman subtitling, plus the English release online, and they spell Nyuu with 2 "u"s. ætərnal ðrAعon → 09:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The official DVD set lists and subtitles it "Nyu" whenever the name appears. That's what we should use, since it's official, and we're already using the official romanization for Kohta. Nique talk 14:22, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I use it as Nyū. the "u" has a line thing over it meaning it's holding the sound, making it seem like 2 U'sOsirisV 16:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then again, most people would refer to it as "Nyuu", so when they search for it, they owuld search "Nyuu".  If you look at it, typing "Nyu" in the search bar redirects us to a totally different topic.  Maybe, as it is done for most characters, , which uses both spellings as people understand it. ætərnal ðrAعon 00:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nyu or Nyuu? 

message: Looks like Eternal Dragon posted something here about extending the plot section.  While its not against the rules to post spoilers and such, it really doesn't add to the article to post the entire plot of the show.  You shouldn't be able to use the article as a replacement for watching the show, but you should have a pretty good idea of what it's about.  I think the article already does a good job of that.  --Kraftlos (talk) 22:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plot Extension 

message: It says diclonius are a different species yet the article on diclonius and many bits in the manga say otherwise infact the description of the manga says mutated homo sapien not something else can someone please fix that--Vipa Human (talk) 21:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the description is really wrong, but I'm not an expert in evolution terms. If they are mutated homo sapiens, then they can very well be different species of the same genus.  This is sort of like the homo superior concept in X-Men, however inaccurate the term is. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 21:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The beginning of the article 

message: The current Wikimedia foundation licensing policy still allows for the non-free exemptions on the English wikipedia under the fair-use rational.
Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP)
    A project-specific policy, in accordance with United States law and the law of countries where the project content is predominantly accessed (if any), that recognizes the limitations of copyright law (including case law) as applicable to the project, and permits the upload of copyrighted materials that can be legally used in the context of the project, regardless of their licensing status. Examples include: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content and http://pl.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Dozwolony_u%C5%BCytek.
I see the phrase "project specific" and you mentioned that this project does things differently, but i haven't come across any specific image policy specific to manga and anime, so I'm going to have to defer to the WP criteria.  Fair use is acceptable under the following conditions:
# No free equivalent. 
# Respect for commercial opportunities.
# Use -
:# Minimal usage. Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information.
:# Minimal extent of use. An entire work is not used if a portion will suffice. Low- rather than high-resolution/fidelity/bit rate is used (especially where the original could be used for deliberate copyright infringement). This rule also applies to the copy in the Image: namespace.
# Previous publication. Non-free content must have been published outside Wikipedia.
# Meets general WP standards for encylopedic content
# Meets WP's image policy
# Has to be placed in an article.
# Significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding.
# Restrictions on location. Not in disambiguation pages, no image gallery, not in talk pages
# Image description page. The image or media description page contains the following:
:# Attribution of the source of the material and, if different from the source, of the copyright holder. See: Wikipedia:Citing sources#When uploading an image.
:# A copyright tag that indicates which Wikipedia policy provision is claimed to permit the use. For a list of image copyright tags, see Wikipedia:Image copyright tags/Non-free content.
:# The name of each article (a link to the articles is recommended as well) in which fair use is claimed for the item, and a separate fair-use rationale for each use of the item, as explained at Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline. The rationale is presented in clear, plain language, and is relevant to each use.
Placing an image of Lucy breaking out of the base in the plot section conveys the idea of the first 15 mins of the anime (and I assume the manga) in a way that cannot be conveyed merely through words.  It also meets all of the above criteria.  No one is ignoring WP:NONFREE, we're all very familiar with it.  Let's avoid this edit war and DISCUSS this.  I think æt should have some say since he's been working on page for quite a while.  Also keep in mind that this was once a featured article and hasn't really changed that much since then.    --Kraftlos (talk) 19:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This wasn't once a featured article unless I'm missing something. It passed GA under looser guidelines than exist now. And no, the image of Lucy breaking out does not convey anything extra nor is it necessary. Its decoration, nothing more. As for avoiding edit warring, you are the one who reverted the clean up rather than bring your objections here. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 19:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted your edit, but that's simply because you made some drastic changes to the article without discussing it.  I didn't initiate.  How does that not add to the plot description?  That's the most distinctive scene in the entire series.  It's used in the trailers on Anime Network.  Explain. --Kraftlos (talk) 19:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: (edit conflict) I made appropriate drastic changes to fix the article and bring it in line with the MoS and get it into shape so it won't need to be delisted. That you don't agree with the clean up is another whole issue, and that you want to continue arguing over stuff despite it being in-line with real good article, well, that's a third. Its still decoration. Being used in the trailers, frankly, doesn't mean anything at all. It is not critically discussed, and acts as nothing more than decoration. A reader does not need to see the image in order to gain some additional understanding. They gain nothing from it at all. Indeed, as you keep insisting the poster should be the infobox image, its also just redundant. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 19:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-Free Rational 

message: (Unindent) (Thinks to self: How is it that I became the middle man?) Okay, this is what I suggest should be done. Condense the plot, make it manga-centric, give an overview of the beginning and major plot points and an ending if one is available, as in one of us (or some other editor) can provide one (I'm looking at you, Collectonian, on this issue). Expand differences between media. Characters looks okay, but the image at List of Elfen Lied characters can be included. The two images in "Style and themes" I believe are necessary, since they help illustrate the point about the nudity and violence in the series (pic one), and the direct relation to "The Kiss" (pic two). Collectonian herself has argued about the inclusion of such images that help to illustrate prose at List of Tokyo Mew Mew characters, and I do not believe any of the current images used in the article are mere decoration, so shouldn't be removed. The individual character pics don't belong there (as I said, single image is better) and of the two anime images formally used in the article, I think this image might be able to be salvaged, if it can be used to illustrate Lucy's dark side. The image of Kouta and Lucy as kids I think is superfluous, and what with the plot eventually reduced, one image for this section will be enough. Everything else looks to be in-line, at least for a GA. For FA concerns, copyedit the prose, cite everything, expand production, and perhaps condense the Characters section into a smaller single paragraph (I myself had to do this on the recently GA-promoted Air (visual novel)). The infobox image can be the last thing debated, if need be (as it's the least of the article's problems). And cite anything you can for it to be a GA standard as well.--十八 08:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, let's make sure we're clear here. I argued for the existance of two group images, which meet Non-Free (as was agreed on Non-Free) and one of which was a relevant to the discussion. Never said 1-3 GROUP images couldn't be added to the character list, indeed I encouraged it. But they don't want that. They want to argue for keeping several tiny, stolen low quality individual character images that do violate WP:NONFREE. I also never argued against the images in the style and themes nor did I remove them. I argued against the decorative ones in the plot section which did not illustrate any points at all (they are currently removed, you'll need to look back to see them). Would also suggest they stop focusing on the images and look at the other GA criteria I noted the article fails like the "wholly unreferenced sections, numerous unreferenced statements, and some non-neutral language and blatant OR/personal opinion" which are grounds for quick delisting. And don't look to me, I'm not going to bother doing anything else to the article but watch it sink or swim on its own and then revisit in two weeks as already noted to see if it is back at GA level. (As for how you became the middle man...I asked you to look at it because no one could ever say we were operating in tandem :P and I knew you would view it neutrally and honestly; and you are one of the most active editors in the project and well versed in policy and guidelines, even if we regularly argue over the nuances) -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 08:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: (Due to me updating you didn't see but) As I said above, this image might be able to be used to illustrate how Lucy changes to her dark side, if the prose can reflect it which I don't think is hard. The image of when Kouta and Lucy were kids I think can be removed, as well as the promo poster (unless it can be used to illustrate something in the prose).--十八 08:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure I agree there; you could justify using the promo poster instead of the manga cover, since the manga covers are deliberately not representative of the series (actually...nah, it's probably mostly blogs in Japanese talking about how the covers are cunningly made to attract a more moe audience, would be impossible to source), but I'm not sure I'm seeing how Lucy's dark side needs illustration. Doceirias (talk) 09:53, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Shall I update the rationales for the images then? ætərnal ðrAعon 09:33, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Section break

message: To be brief, if anyone reverts someone again I'm going to lock the page until you guys can solve this. That means; I don't care if you disagree with someone's edit, bring it up here, don't go reverting. Please don't make me lock it; we're all mature here, surely we can handle some civilized discussion? Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :) 05:15, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I wont edit again until we have a concensus.  I think we've gone past our three reverts.  --Kraftlos (talk) 05:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit warring 

message: I've noticed that many articles on video games, FAs included, actually quote from cutscenes and dialogue in the game and use them as inline citations.  Is this passable to make GA/FA standard in this article?  It did for several video game FAs. ætərnal ðrAعon 11:09, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Only for actual plot elements, such as character descriptions. All real-world statements, and interprative discussion of plot or characters must be sourced from outside the works. In such cases, however, quotes themselves are not needed, only a proper book citation to a specific page (or pages) of a manga volume (using  preferably), or to an episode with . -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 01:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Referencing 

message: Does anyone know why the Russian Wikipedia tagged this page?  From what I can understand of the article, this article looks to be more developed than that one.  --Kraftlos (talk) 05:41, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No idea. I'm going to remove it, as a check of the Russian Wikipedia does not support the claim that it is a featured article there. Maybe a mistag? -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 05:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian Language?