Talk:List of oldest living people/Archive 2

message: Greetings,
Note that the GRG added Sote Toshima on Sept 29, 2007. Ryoung122 06:16, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but who was added yesterday, and why still not "Lhuillier" instead of "L'Huillier", my friend? Extremely sexy 16:09, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Grietje Jansen-Anker was added yesterday, but some anon already changed the ref. Cheers, CP 17:01, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought she was already on the list. Extremely sexy 22:50, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bart: the latest news article (in French) had her name spelled "L'Huillier." Calm down, OK? Ryoung122 21:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So, in other words, you don't believe Laurent or don't want to take his word for it, plus all journalists write what they want, remember? Extremely sexy 22:50, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In other words, I don't want to be bothered about this by you. I take Mr. Toussaint's word for it, but I agree with Louis and the French press that the name as spelled on her ID card is non-standard and incorrect. What if her date of birth had been some made-up, fictitious month? Would you insist we use that too?Ryoung122 11:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, of course not, but a name, c.q. a surname, on an official ID card or passport (as for me) should be correct, Robert. Extremely sexy 15:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent GRG updates

message: Mago Nozawa of Japan died Sept. 12, 2007. See World's Oldest People forum for details.
Ryoung122 11:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone else did this, but I added the new male Japanese supercentenarian as well. Cheers, CP 16:31, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mago Nozawa 1896-2007

message: http://news.monstersandcritics.com/europe/news/article_1363441.php/Oldest_German_dies_at_112_never_married
Ryoung122 16:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Irmgard von Stephani 1895-2007

message: Sadly, after only holding the title of World's Oldest German for one day, Elsa Tauser passed away on the morning of 6th October 2007. http://www.welt.de/berlin/article1245811/Das_Alter_kommt_von_ganz_allein.html
~XZT, 8th October 2007  —Preceding unsigned comment added by XZT (talk • contribs) 20:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elsa Tauser (1896-2007) 

message: Before the death of Anne Christopher, the United States had 8 of the top 12 positions on the list...probably the highest ever...probably will never happen again. Ryoung122 06:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But she was 112 1/2, so an article on her is definitely justified, Lee. Extremely sexy 15:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Death of Anne Christopher 1895-2007

message: So, someone added Louis de Cazenave already, but skipped Marie Grosclaude (born Oct 15 1897)?Ryoung122 05:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Where's Frieda Borchert of Germany? Annie Butler of England? Marie Grosclaude of France?Ryoung122 06:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not on my part! Someone added de Cazenave (ossibly as a test) but then obviously realised they were a bit early as he only came up as 109 and they undid the edit. Fortunately, for me, I am in the right part of the world to be able to check on these things in the middle of the day rather than than the middle of the night so as soon as the time zone clicked over I was able to add him back in again. I only knew of his impending supercentenarian status from the WWI survivors page and knew nothing of the women you mention. Do you have a link for those awaiting verification or those closing in on 110? Cheers. DerbyCountyinNZ 10:18, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The word "bias" is a favourite word not only of Robert Young, but of many higher level scholars who employ it excessively in order to self-aggrandize themselves and validate their scholarly pursuits. I'm not saying that bias doesn't exist, but that word is so overused as to cheapen it. As Derby has pointed out, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. I actually visit your site regularly, and I've only heard of one of those women (Borchert). First of all, you're exaggerating an isolated incident and attempting to portray it as a more general phenomenon. Given that there's 84 women and 11 men, which means that more than half a dozen women are being added for every man, one could accuse the list of a pro-female bias. But that would be monumentally stupid, because of the simple fact that more women happen to reach 110. Secondly, if there was any "bias" in adding de Cazenave to the list, it was your fault, because you've been so vociferous about adding WWI veterans to Wikipedia and getting them recognized that everyone and their mother has probably heard of de Cazenave already (not to mention that he's also on Noted Nonagenarians and Centenarians and that he's had about a hundred times more media exposure than the above people) and thus someone was bound to notice that he had turned 110 and added him. It's not everyone's job to know who's turning 110, that's your job. If we don't know who these people are ahead of time to add them, then that's a failure on your behalf (if indeed you consider it so important to have these people up immediately, which I don't. As someone pointed out once "We gain little by being the first and much by being the most accurate" on Wikipedia), not a bias on ours. You have your own site if you want to make intellectual accusations, keep it off of this one. Cheers, CP 14:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Canadian Paul, that's far too much heavy-hitting vs. a statement which, prima facie, is true. Statistics show that of 1,000 supercentenarians, 89% are female and 11% male. Ok, so we have the 11 males, but we're missing about 5 females. And it just so happens that cases like Annie Butler were covered in the WOP forum MONTHS ago and again more recently. Others have suggested more than once the need to add the German cases, and we all know you've heard of Frieda Borchert (not that the comment was intended for you exclusively). And, as you noted, some people might not have heard of the others...hence the need for the 'bias' accusation. If it gets attention and causes the data to be corrected, then it was used properly. 
Now, over-use of a word like that can quickly become old. But given your reaction and that another reacted as well, clearly that isn't the case.Ryoung122 01:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Well if you want people to react well, don't accuse of things. Instead of immediately drawing upon a pro-male bias, why not assume good faith and say "Hey, you forgot Poland to add the following cases... could you please do so?" By the way, I didn't mean that as a person attack, sorry if it seemed that way. I didn't mean to have a comma after scholars so that "who employ it excessively in order to self-aggrandize themselves" to refer to the scholars, not you. Definitely some frustrations at some self-aggrandizing scholars in Texas. Again, apologies if you were hurt by my sentiments, but they were not directed at you, and I have amended the punctuation to make that clearer. Cheers, CP 01:40, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pro-Male Bias?

message: It seems as though we may soon reach the milestone of having 100 verified living supercenenarians (the vagaries of time-lag in the reporting of their passing, and degrees of verification notwithstanding). Surely this will be the first time this has occurred? DerbyCountyinNZ 02:49, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed so, and, moreover, I do know the record definitely is over 100. Extremely sexy 21:56, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I added her per a report at WOP. Extremely sexy 23:58, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the list is 'living,' default to nation of current residence. Ryoung122 07:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  100 supercentenarians? 

message: Well, Ms. Hankins passed away Oct. 17, 2007, so 'top 100' is not yet. NOTE: there are even more cases to consider...Viola Koch, Chrissie Martinstein, Cora Gentry, etc. Can you find them? (Hint: check WOP) Ryoung122 07:34, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Delphia Hankins 1896-2007

message: Hello everyone, 
I have collected the names of several supercentenarian-candidates. I don`t neither know if all these people are still alive, nor do I know if the Date of Birth and the Place of Residence are correct and can be validated. 
1.  Josefa Punzón 		* 08.08.1896		111 years old from Spain
2.  Lillian Jolson		* 09.1896		111 years old from the USA
3.  Chrissie Mortinstein,	* 1896/97		110 years old from the USA
4.  Marie-Jeanne Rouch,         * 25.03.1897 		110 years old from France
5.  Dina Manfredini		* 04.05.1897		110 years old from the USA
6.  Florence Johnson	        * 18.07.1897		110 years old from the USA (South Dakota)
7.  Ludwika Kosztyłla	        * 03.08.1897		110 years old from Poland
8.  Lillie B. Cox Taylor	* 05.08.1897		110 years old from the USA
9.  Masatake Kinoshita	        * 20.08.1897		110 years old man from Japan
10. Florence Poe		* 28.08.1897		110 years old from the USA
11. Lona Snodgrass 		* 02.09.1897		110 years old from the USA
12. Mabel Reberry		* 02.09.1897		110 years old from the USA
13. Louisa Russel		* 03.09.1897		110 years old from Australia
14. Queenie Blackwood	        * 1897			110 years old from Canada
15. Louisa Russel		* 03.09.1897		110 years old from Australia
16. Molly Wenn		        * 16.09.1897		110 years old from the UK
17. Kayo Miyazaki		* 17.09.1897		110 years old from Shizuoka/Japan
18. Connie Stebbings	        * 21.09.1897		110 years old from the UK
19. Eleanor Thatcher	        * 22.09.1897		110 years old from the UK
20. Grace Talmadge		* 23.09.1897		110 years old from the USA
21. Mary Gould Ellicott	        * 28.09.1897		110 years old from the USA
22. Lola Norton		        * 11.10.1897		110 years old from the USA  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.60.229.146 (talk) 17:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Number 7 has been discussed above... not entirely to my satisfaction, but enough so that I don't feel like putting the effort in into campaigning for her inclusion or for Nicholas Kao Se Tseien's removal Cheers, CP 21:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WOAH! Slow down a bit! First, your own list has some duplications...#13 and #15 are the same person! Also, even if not a "GRG" list, we at least need to make sure that:
A. The person was living at their 110th birthday or later; and
B. The person's age has either been pre-validated by an expert (i.e. such as Filipe Prista Lucas) and the message posted to the WOP board, or the person has been featured in the newspaper of a nation with 'complete and validated' data.
Perhaps we need to add a 'footnotes' section, because some cases (like Lillian Jolson) we don't have a birthdate for or proof yet. Others, like Lillian Taylor, are pretty much going to be added because the records have already been found...just not processed yet.
One more note: the 1900 census lists Florence Poe as born in 1898, so I wouldn't go for adding her.
Also, where did you get the Japan cases? Don't add someone unless you can source it...if you have a Japanese newslink, then go ahead.
By the way, I have the birthdate for Martinstein, but it's confidential right now.
Finally, it's not good to do a 'mass add'. Each case needs to be judged on its own merit. I note that Kristine Brown is listed in the 1900 census as born 'Dec 1897' instead of 'Sept', so there's an issue. 
I would favor adding a second section, cases that are unvalidated but appear reasonable (i.e. Maria Fernandez of Tampa, FL born Aug 19 1896; the Polish lady born Aug 3 1897, etc). This is different from cases such as Dina Manfredini, where there is a birth certificate (we are waiting for confirmation that she is still living). Please, note the Iowa Dept of Elder Affairs is NOT a reliable source when it comes to validating someone still being alive. Several cases of 'supercentenarians' turned out to be people that died years ago (Bertha Scheurey, Kathrine Lange, Bena Andersen, etc). Ryoung122 11:41, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

text: And Briton Molly Wenn didn't even make 109, let alone 110. Extremely sexy 23:53, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bart, we should be careful not to crucify the topic starter here. The list has some mistakes but then it was never claimed to be foolproof and could prove somewhat heplful. Captain celery 20:13, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Martinstein's family doesn't want to disclose it? Extremely sexy 00:01, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of possibly new candidates  

message: http://www.newsday.com/news/obituaries/ny-ligree245429880oct24,0,5198101.story Ryoung122 14:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great pity really: both she and Emma Carroll looked great for their very advanced age indeed (112). Extremely sexy 21:30, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fannie Greenberg 1895-2007

message: If you check this week's messages from the WOP webgroup, there has been identified a new 9th-oldest man in the world.Ryoung122 09:54, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So we are at 11 SC men again. And possibly 12 in a couple of weeks. If my calculations are correct there were 13 in the middle of August. And a new 11th oldest woman, yet another American. That's 8 of the top 12. It's nice for something interesting to happen which isn't a death. Captain celery 03:21, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Another man from Japan

message: ::You know, Marie-Simone Capony of France did not emerge until the death of the previous titleholder, Camille Loiseau. Given France's penchant for 'anonymity' I'm almost certain there are some missing 111 and 112-year-olds out there. One, Shiender Biewer, said born July 1895 and lives in Lyon...but we don't have enough information. Given that:
A. Clementine Solignac's health has been shaky (broke hip in Sept, daughter died);
B. The next-in-line is Marie L'Huillier, but at her 112th birthday party she was pictured in bed (hence, not in good shape)
C. The next-in-line is Eugenie Blanchard, but at her 110th birthday party she was already frail and out-of-it. That's more than a year ago.
D. Our French correspondent hasn't sent any documentation on the 'class of 1897' batch, such as Marie Rouch, Louise Bontemps, etc.
E. Again, there are rumors of two additional French super-cs (but not enough information available)
F. We've had some emerge as late as 114 (Anne Primout, Lydie Vellard).
G. Emergent or not, once the death records come in, we find out about them.
All this leads to a situation where France is more ripe for surprises than, say, Italy or the UK, where we have a better handle on what is happening there.
Of course the USA is still highly fluid, more surprises can be expected from the USA as well...Ryoung122 17:19, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: France: Ripe for Change

message: Remember that Virginia Call of Chicago, IL claims birth Jan 4 1894, has a 96-year-old daughter and 82-year-old grandson, according to the claims. Based on records found so far, she may have been born in Jan 1895. I have not yet visited the family or thoroughly investigated to see if the potential 1910 census match is really her..neither has a 1900 census match been positively matched. This case remains the 'dark horse,' the one that is most likely to cause trouble. Is she born in Jan 1895? Or Jan 1894? Either way, she'd be very near the top of the list.Ryoung122 17:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Virginia Call

message: Why is the 'longevity' template NOT displaying at the bottom of the page?Ryoung122 10:27, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried to figure that out, but for once I couldn't. I figured out which edit caused the change from show to not show, but I can't figure out what that edit did to break the template. Maybe you should ask the person who created the template? Cheers, CP 15:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which edit was it? What date was it?Ryoung122 21:22, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

text: It's still out order though: definitely strange. Extremely sexy 16:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Even more strange: one reference is removed and it works again. Extremely sexy 21:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Might have just been an overload. I have no clue. It's fixed now. If it gets broken again, I'll watch for what does it. Cheers, CP 21:54, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps, if it happens again, we need to update reflist from '2' to '3'. I suppose the 'space' for the references wasn't enough with just '2'.Ryoung122 12:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have also been thinking along those lines. Extremely sexy 13:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Formatting issue

message: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worlds_Oldest_People/message/9019
Ryoung122 21:19, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Marie Rouch of France 1897-2007

message: What is the rationale for including the undocumented case of Choe Pu Yong and not Ludwika Kosztyła? Why Nicholas Kao Se Tseien and not Fan Shee Hoo? I'm not really buying some of Robert Young's old arguments. I think that we need a very clear criteria for inclusion or exclusion from this list for it to be viable. Cheers, CP 18:04, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Choe Pu Yong 

message: On GRG it lists her birthdate as April 4th but here we have it as May 4th. Since GRG is the source I presume they have it correct, but can anyone confirm that? Captain celery 02:31, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I say go with what the GRG says. More likely that someone got the month number wrong in the template than anything. Plus we have to go with what is verifiable by the references. Cheers, CP 05:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dina Manfredini

message: Is this list getting too long? I tried to add Harvey Hite and it couldn't display his information correctly, messing up the format of the table. It seems it can only take 103 cases before this starts to happen. Is there a way to fix this, or should we alter the table to the Top 100 Living Supercentenarians? Any thoughts/ideas? XZT 10:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have added Harvey Hite yesterday, since I remembered that he was added to the main page as 10th oldest man, before the new Japanese cases. But another source lists his birthdate as the 19th. I'd ignore that, but the source that's been used has been on CSNBC for a few days. I imagine that the 15th is still correct, but the story was written earlier. Maybe he had a party at the weekend. It's just a bit misleading. -- Captain celery (talk) 18:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

text: That's a good point.  For some reason, the age and country templates aren't working after the 103rd individual in the list.  Maybe someone knows of a technical reason and how to fix it.  Perhaps we should cut the list off at 100, we don't want to manually update their age.  Useight 16:04, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a maximum number of templates that the software will allow to be transcluded on any given page. Try taking the flag templates out and just replace with the name of the country. - -- fchd (talk) 17:28, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List too long? 

message: Separate issue, the year 1896 was a leap year- 366 days. This is not being reflected in the daily numbers. Thus several of number of days columns are inaccurate.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.68.242 (talk) 02:35, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your reasoning is partly in error. The calculation is made by computer automatically in two steps. For example from 1 February 1896 to 1 February 2007 is 111 years. Then it automatically calculates the number of days from 1 February 2007 until today's date. All years (leap years or otherwise) count as one year.  On this basis it is correct to say that (as at today's date 20 November) Kane Akazawa, b. Feb. 27, 1896 has lived 111 years and 266 days and Chisato Sato b. March 1, 1896 has lived 111 years and 264 days - 2 days differently - BUT - respectively they have actually lived - 40808 days and 40805 days - 3 days differently. This is made up as (111x365) + 27 leap days + 266 = 40808; and (111x365) + 26 leap days + 264 = 40805. (Remember that the year 1900 had no 29 February).  This does not impact anyone's position on this list. Alan Davidson (talk) 00:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

text: There are other wiki lists of oldest people in particular categories where the age is given in days only. That could be done with this list, if it ever became an issue. DerbyCountyinNZ (talk) 09:54, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think a list of days is particularly meaningful. We are interested in these people because of the number of years (110 plus); the number of days is secondary - except that we list them on this basis. I would prefer a footnote for each case. Alan Davidson (talk) 01:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Going back to the intial enquiry, the age difference between Kane Akazawa, b. Feb. 27, 1896 and Chisato Sato b. March 1, 1896 is in fact 3 days, although the list has the initial appearance of 2 days.  But this applies to everyone born before 29th February 1896, they all should appear one day older than listed (that is they have all lived one more leap day than the rest on the list.)  But this is a relatively trivial matter as we are talking about one day in more than 40,000. Alan Davidson (talk) 03:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 1896 problem