Talk:Guardianship of the Islamic Jurist

message: This article seems like anyone not knowledgeable to debate its contents wouldn't have a clue what its contents mean.  "Post-Age-of-Occultation?"  (I'm guessing the Age of Occultation refers to the hidden One of the Twelve Imams?)   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.56.2.185 (talk) 02:52, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: A little help for non-insiders?

message: This viewpoint about "Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists" is very political. There are some funny mistakes which show lack of scholar information.
:1- This idea is related to Twelverss and not all of Muslims.
:2- Although all of Shi'a clerics have accepted this doctorine but there varied viewpoint about its restrictions. Only few of Shi'a scholars agree with political Guardianship of clerics. Most of them   limited it to judicial Guardianship.
:
Unfortunately almost all of the refrences aren't scholastic refrences. For example look at these six sources which refered to in lead:
"the defeat of the mullahcracy...would be...historic event."BBC News on Middle East 29 October 2003[http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.all,pubID.24022/pub_detail.asp United States Policy toward Iran TESTIMONY 
Committee on International Relations  (U.S. House of Representatives)  
Publication Date: 8 March  2006 by Michael Ledeen who uses the word ]No weapons in Iraq? We'll find them in Iran Sunday Herald 01 June 2003MENACING MULLAHCRACY Foundation for Defense of Democracies 21 February 2006Middle East: what will emerge from the ruins? Zawya.com 12 August 2006Is it compulsory to be anti-Western to condemn Israel’s war? Turkish Daily News 15 August 2006On cause and effect of a 'disproportionate response' Persian Journal 9 August 2006
Do you refered to these sites in technical or scientific cases.
This article should be written on the basis of Ja'fari jurisprudence and theology of Shi'a. Also you can use some the idea of Westen scholars like Vali Nasr who understand the meaning of Islamic concepts.
--Sa.vakilian 03:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excuse me you misunderstood. This article is about "Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists" (ولایت فقیه) and it's a technical and scholar word in Ja'fari jurisprudence. You can make another article and called it mullahcracy and put whatever you want in it.--Sa.vakilian 15:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversial:Mullahcracy

message: It should be mentioned that that there is two viewpoint among Shi'a clerics from beginning untill now. We should mention welayet-e-faghih doesn't mean rule of religious clerics. The majority of Shi'a jurists believe in limited form of it which include Judiciary and observation but not legislation and executive power. Some of them believe in illimited welayet-e-faqih. It means jurist have the Islamic legitimate right and authority to do whatever Shi'a Imams do in social and political life.
:The article does mention that Khomeini revised the idea and advocated total control by Islamic jurists.--Patchouli 19:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV:Limited and illimited Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists

message: Because this article is about technical schlar Islamic issue, public media like BBC aren't reliable sources. We should find some sources which have written by some Islamic and secular scholars.
Reliability of sources:
*United States Policy toward Iran :I'll be grateful if somebody show a sentence about "Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists" in this article.
*No weapons in Iraq? We'll find them in Iran:Funny. It's completely irrelivalnt. Is there somebody who think we should refer to any article which has "Mullacrasy"!!!
*MENACING MULLAHCRACY  This article is about nuclear program of Iran. Should we refer to it?
*US moderates edge ahead over Iran
This article is written by Paul Reynolds
Paul Reynolds
The part of this article which relates to this article is POV and uses foul language, thus it's not reliable.
* Middle East: what will emerge from the ruins? This article is inaccissible.
*Is it compulsory to be anti-Western to condemn Israel’s war? It's about Lebanon- Israel conflict.
*On cause and effect of a 'disproportionate response It's about Lebanon- Israel conflict too.
*Iraqi Sheik Struggles for Votes, And Against Religious Tradition It seems irrelative. What's your idea.
*
Inaccessible.
These are good sources:
* A short biography of Molla Mohammad Mahdee Naraqi
This is a reliable source about Naraqi's idea.
*interview Grand Ayatollah Yusef Saanei This is talk of a jurist. So it's reliable.
*Sistani's Fatwa
I propose these ones too:
*Supreme Leader of Iran. Of course not as a main source.
* nterview: Dr. Hamid al-Bayati
UK representative of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI)--Sa.vakilian 18:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Some more reliable sources

message: I insist that "Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists" is a scholar term. A distinct interpretation of this idea result in Islamic government in Iran. Also we can add something about the experience of a this government but we shouldn't write about the situation of Iran. Therefor I Propose to move these parts to another articles:
*Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: As Soon as Iran Achieves Advanced Technologies, It Has the Capacity to Become an Invincible Global Power
We can move this part of article to Politics of Iran.
* "Additionally, as an OPEC member, Iran need not worry even if technocrats don't have the ultimate say on public policy. Due to revenues pouring in from the oil commodity, it can withstand economic sanctions and not fret about "begging foreign investors to come into Iran."[]
This part doesn't relate to "Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists" anyway. It should be moved to Economy of Iran
*"Moreover, Islamic education is mandatory in schools. "All public school students, including non-Muslims, must study Islam," according to International Religious Freedom Report 2006 Furthermore, no one born to Muslim parents can enter a university without passing a test on Islam and per sharia no abandoning of Islam is permissible as it constitutes apostasy. As a result, for example, one cannot study physics at a university without having attained a substantial understanding of Islam and Arabic."Baha'is may not teach or practice their faith or maintain links with co-religionists abroad" . his part doesn't relate to "Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists" anyway. It should be moved to Islam in Iran and Status of religious freedom in Iran.--Sa.vakilian 18:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the statments made by Sa.vakilian in this section. --Striver 18:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: irrelative parts

message: Mullahcracy is a political and religious principle.  Mandatory Islamic education is an aspect of the way of governance that is essential for understanding how a mullahcracy affects governmental decisions.  Furthermore, the "In practice" section is not exclusively on Khomeini's book.
If you are reading Ruhollah Khomeini's book and wish to strictly include a summary thereof, then please edit Valiyat-e faqih (book by Khomeini).--Patchouli 07:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. Make an article and called it Mullahcracy. Absolutly it's different with Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists. I'm certain you aren't familiar with the Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists.--Sa.vakilian 10:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also I should remind you that "Mandatory Islamic education" was not an aspect of this kind of government. During Pahlavi distiny there was Mandatory Islamic education in school. Of course Islamic Republic emphasizes on it more. --Sa.vakilian 10:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is because Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was a Muslim and mullahs had influence in Iran even before 1979 as I found out by reading parts of the Iran's constitution of 1906.  Does guardianship of Islamic jurists not require mandatory Islamic education?  
I see no difference between velayat e faqih and mullahcracy.  (1)  They mean introduction of sharia courts with mullahs as judges to decide many issues like family law and personal conduct.  The fact that Iran had mandatory Islamic education (though, to a lesser extent) put Iran one step ahead towards this type of government.  (2)  It allows mullahs to implement whatever they deem in line with Islam like compulsory hijab.  There was never a referendum on compulsory hijab or religious police once people voted for theocracy as their form of government.
Hypothetically speaking, if Albania were to adopt velayat e faqih, how would that differ from mullahcracy?--Patchouli 19:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

text: You misunderstood. There is wide difference about limitations of guardianship. It's wrong to recognize Sistani's viewpoint as criticism against Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists.--Sa.vakilian 04:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks for pointing out the unsuitability of the section title.--Patchouli 05:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambiguation

message: Anyone want to point out that the US has it's own mullahs: Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Whatsisname Graham etc? Unelected persons who hold tremendous influence owing to their perceived expertise in matteers of religion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paul Murray (talk • contribs) 02:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mullahs in the USA 

message: Mullahcracy
The word Mullahcracy, literally ‘the rule of the Mullahs,’ is a simple extrapolation of Theocracy, in an attempt to define the very specific mode of governance in the Islamic Republic of Iran. The noun Mullah denotes a Muslim learned in Islamic theology and sacred law,  and whilst the term theocracy entered the English language in 1622 as ‘sacerdotal government under divine inspiration,’ it had been redefined by 1825 as a ‘priestly or religious body wielding political and civil power.’  This later emphasis on the human element interpreting law rather than directly receiving it has never been fully accepted, and theocracy carries the stigma of not only its Puritan introduction to the language (a stigma born publicly in the failure of revolution), but also of the Enlightenment, an intellectual movement that effectively quashed the aspirations of the Church in Western Europe. Theocracy is a term laden with negativity in popular consciousness, it is redolent of irrationalism and intolerance; a legacy in recent times of the shockwaves caused by the Iranian revolution of 1979, and the instant rhetorical response of an ever more liberal west.
In this context, Mullahcracy begins to appear a derogatory term. Despite Islam’s importance in the long journey to Renaissance, as both repository of knowledge and jewel of the liberal arts, it has not taken part in the past five hundred years of philosophical discussion or scientific innovation. The reason for its resistance to the great reforming movements perhaps lies in the relative youth of the religion, and the geographic barriers of Muslim territories, for despite suffering a schism similar to that of Christianity (but also much earlier in its history), there was no central ruling authority comparable to Catholicism, and therefore little chance of a deep and internalised corruption. There was, in effect, no single authority to resist.
In the later half of the twentieth century the Shah of Iran began a process of modernisation that was also seen be a secularisation of the State, and the public reacted furiously, ending ultimately in the 1979 revolution. Since that time the highest authority in the Islamic Republic of Iran has the Supreme Leader, an Ayatollah, and a figure described in article 5 of the constitution as ‘combining supreme political and religious power,’ and also as, ‘a manifestation of the integration of politics with religion.  In the intervening years since the constitution was drawn up, the Assembly of Experts for Leadership has replaced the original Leadership Council, which would operate in the absence of an Ayatollah. In the original constitution the Iranian people could elect a leader (providing a legal basis for the revolution led by Ayatollah Khomeini), but this responsibility, along with the removal of the Leader if ‘he proves incapable of carrying out his duties, or if he loses the requirements of a leader, or if it becomes clear that he lacked some of them from the beginning,’  now belongs to the Assembly of Experts. The Ayatollah acting as leader is no longer required to be a supreme theological authority (marja`taqlid) that Shia Muslims follow, a fact that seriously undermines the adoption of even the easy code of theocracy when searching for a term to describe the modern Iranian state.  
The secular-humanist tradition is a result of internal religious conflict in the west, a logical conclusion, or perhaps a way of coming to terms with, the Judeo-Christian tradition, but regardless of the secularising forces emerging in many Muslim countries, it constitutes a lack of imagination to suggest that Islam is in any way comparable to medieval Christianity, and that it will necessarily follow a similar path to modernisation, albeit in an accelerated way.  Iran in particular, has, over the past 27 years, become something of a model Islamic state when viewed statistically,  but much of this has to do with compromise on behalf of the Republic with internal non-governmental reform movements. The elections that play such an active role in the lives of Iranians (since 1979, there have been nine presidential elections and seven parliamentary)  , were made as a concession to secular forces and though these democratic practices exist in only a limited way, they are taken extremely seriously by the populace. Any description of the Iranian mode of governance should be carefully considered in recognition of her engaged and active populace, for they will be the deciding factor in any movement towards reform.
                                                                                                --J. Burke
12:00, 21 January 2007 194.80.178.1 (Talk) (inserted a broad overview that should be too open to dispute)
->unformatted text not in article format, moved here so those writing on that article can discuss it. --Hurax 21:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  moved from main article 

message: I'm attempting to work Farhoudk's comments into the article sometimes replacing the original text as his comments seem to be the best informed 
--Leroy65X 21:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Integrating Farhoudk's "misunderstandings" section into main article

message: :what does Economic implications and Education have to do with the title? With Patchouli is gone, someone should rewrite this.
Maybe even delete it. What economic and educational policy does VF call for other than following the sharia and protecting the interests of the Islamic state? --Leroy65X 18:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Economic and Education implications of VF

message: The Arabic transliteration (posted on this page prior to May 20, 2007) is not notable enough to merit inclusion. Arabic script is notable enough. Perspicacite 21:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arabic

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message: The article at various points interchangeably uses the Arabic wilayat faqih and Persian vilayat-e faqih. Should we strive to find a consistent usage? --Jprg1966 (talk) 22:33, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Good question. Islamic texts are in Arabic, but the country that uses it is Iran. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 16:52, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arabic vs. Persian consistency