Talk:Piaggio P.180 Avanti

message: I'm slowly adding things to this page, partly based on my recollection from working on the project in 1980-81  Jim Hammer 23:52, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updates 

message: For the power/mass computation, the curb weight is used. The numbers in the article suggest the fully loaded mass was taken, which seems wrong. If I'm right, the correct power/mass quotient would be ~ 0,373 instead of the 0,24  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.179.143.145 (talk) 10:08, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is normallly the maximum gross take-off weight compared to the take-off rating for the engines installed. In metric this is usually expressed as Power(kW)/MGTOW(kg) and in imperial measure as MGTOW(lb)/horsepower. I checked the numbers and they look right, as long as the MGTOW quoted is correct, although I inverted the imperial measure to the more commonly used parameter. - Ahunt (talk) 11:46, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Power/mass 

message: I See you ask for citation about the Italian Policer using P180s. Is the Italian Polizia di Stato official site sufficient?
http://poliziadistato.it/articolo/1246-Struttura_del_Reparto_volo
There's a list of aircreafts used. It's in Italian. It looks like there is no English version of this page. Anyway they state to operate one in Pratica di mare, where training is performed. It most probably is a first one to substitute the aging Partenavia P68 OBS fleet. - — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.74.176.55 (talk) 
:Sure that is fine, I will add it to the article. - Ahunt (talk) 13:47, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italian Police P180 Avanti 

message: Upon checking the piaggioaero.com site (such as it is, and does suck), I can find no evidence of a "P.180" designation.  I suggest this article should be moved to "Piaggio P180 Avanti". —QuicksilverT @ 03:56, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: P.180 in Jane's All The World's Aircraft 1988–89 and Brassey's World Aircraft & Systems Directory 1999/2000, and Piaggio appears to be referring to the Avanti as the P.180 in Avanti this advert printed in 2003. It appears the P.180 is the original use.Nigel Ish (talk) 09:53, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The official type certifcate  uses P.180. MilborneOne (talk) 10:14, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The type certificate really gets the last word as that is the legal designation. What I have done in the past is indicated the type certifiable designation as "official" and then noted the other names of designations as "marketing names" or "marketed as". - Ahunt (talk) 11:59, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: ...and now it's P180 (again)? - The Bushranger Return fireFlank speed 20:52, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently they didn't read this conversation. - Ahunt (talk) 21:04, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

text: Sorry, Bill, I didn't realise you had requested it be moved. I just saw an admin-delete and a move, and assumed it was one of the usual suspects. Mea culpa. - The Bushranger Return fireFlank speed 23:53, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem. I was a little ticked, and if my tone came off harsh, I'm sorry. The move request doesn't show for us non0-admins, so you can't be blamed for not knowing it was me. I do try to check the talk pages, but I guess the moving admin didn't check it either. I've posted at WTAIR, so we can get a general consensus on the issue. - BilCat (talk) 00:02, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

text: I won't be moving this back without a consensus, and I'll abide by whatever the consesus is decided at WTAIR. - BilCat (talk) 00:05, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Apology accepted, but it wasn't necessary. I've been having a bit of a WikiRage-y day myself (primarily with the current round of stupidity at DYK, but that's another story!) - The Bushranger Return fireFlank speed 01:08, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry Bill, the "they" remark was mine. I only saw that User:Ged UK had moved it with the edit summary "moved Piaggio P.180 Avanti to Piaggio P180 Avanti: Incorrect designation style per company website" - no indication that you had requested it or that they had seen this thread here. As for the issue of the type certificate name versus the marketing names, yes please do start a conversation on that globally, it would be good to have a consensus on it! - Ahunt (talk) 01:22, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

text: OK, thanks, and my apology was meant for you too. My stress levels still a bit high, so I'm going to go offline for awhile. The thread is at WT:AIR#"Official" designations. - BilCat (talk) 01:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem - hope you get a break there. I have added my comments on the discussion, thank you for starting that. - Ahunt (talk) 12:52, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  P.180 vs. P180 

message: In flight, the P180 makes a distinctive sound with higher frequency components than conventional turboprops. This is due to the wing wake and engine exhaust flows impinging on the 5 bladed pusher propellers. However, the the rear mounted propellers and engines make the cabin interior quieter than conventional turboprops. In flight, the Avanti has been measured at 82 dB on take off, making it one of the louder turboprops in service, but quieter than many common piston and jet aircraft. (Stage 3 noise limits are a minimum of 89 EPNdB for take off.)
Waiting for Ahunt's comments. - Stodieck
:I removed the first statement because it is unsourced and despite the tag dated this month statements like that have been in the article and unsourced for a long time. As per Wikipedia policy these can be removed at any time ("You may remove any material lacking a reliable source that directly supports it"), which I have done so. You cannot just keep putting it back in without citing a source. For further on this matter, see Wikpedia founder Jimmy Wales' statement: "I really want to encourage a much stronger culture which says: it is better to have no information, than to have information like this, with no sources.  Any editor who removes such things, and refuses to allow it back without an actual and appropriate source, should be the recipient of a barnstar." On the other hand you keep removing quoted text cited to a reliable reference, specifically "Alan Parker, chairman of the Naples Municipal Airport Authority's technical committee, described the Avanti as "irritating loud" and compared the high pitched sound "to fingernails on a chalk board". This quote is relevant, reliable and correctly sourced. Your latest edit summary in removing this says "The article itself says that the opinion is "unscientific " therefore not technically founded. The FAA's measured data should take precedence." But if you check you will see that I never removed the FAA numbers. There is no reason that both the FAA data and other information cannot appear here. You also removed the statement "It has been the subject of noise complaints at airports such as Naples Municipal Airport, Florida, where the airport authority determined it was the nosiest aircraft using that facility" which is also relevant and correctly sourced. I don't know what your connection to this subject is, but your continued removal of sourced and relevant text and quotes and replacement with unsourced, and previously tagged and challenged text is contrary to Wikipedia policy. - Ahunt (talk) 12:08, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay it looks like an admin, User:The Bushranger, has expressed his opinion on this discussion by reverting your changes. - Ahunt (talk) 22:04, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

text: I removed the section on the square wave explanation strictly because it is unsourced and appears to be original research. I have searched widely for a source for this explanation, but all internet sources that I have found that mention this merely point to this Wikipedia article as the source of that information. As the policy says unsourced text can be removed at any time, so I have done so. If you have a source for that statement, by all means add it in. My quote from AVweb, was just that, a quote. It is from a reliable ref and is relevant to the article. If you want to add more from that AVweb article on measures taken to try to reduce P.180 noise then that is fine, but your previous edits were to remove that source, not add from it. In answer to your question I have no connection this article or this aircraft type, other than my participation in WikiProject Aircraft. I spent most of my flying career as a helicopter pilot and never really saw an Avanti, except from a  great distance. A long time ago I was asked to add this article to my watch list due excess vandalism seen on it and I have been watching it since, along with 7,878 other Wikipedia pages. So far we have a consensus to leave the article the way it presently is, but I have left a note at WikiProject Aircraft asking other editors to offer opinions, so let's see if anyone else wades in on it over the next few days. - Ahunt (talk) 12:51, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

text: "I am composing a new spin". < beware WP:SYNTH. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:17, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay I will fix that one ref to the Naples article, which I originally inserted. The rusvipavia.ru article is cleary an unattributed copy of this Wikipedia article (compare the opening sentences of both which match word-for-word) and thus is just repeating the unsourced text about the "square wave effect" that was in here. This ref cannot be used as per WP:CIRCULAR. You will probably find if you check your Google hits that all of those are also tracable back to the unsourced claims in this article. Wikipedia is very influential on the internet, which is why it is important not to insert unattributed text. As you can see even reliable news outlets, like AVweb, quote unsourced statements on Wikipedia. The statement "The P180 has been noted for its unusual noise footprint" is merely to introduce the subject of the paragraph. If you don't like the wording that is fine I can choose something more closely aligned with the cited refs.  - Ahunt (talk) 23:26, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Noise signature and objective measurement of disturbance created 

message: File:Piaggio P-180 Avanti Rennes 2010.jpg|current : pointing right, a bit from rear, grey sky
File:Piaggio P180 Avanti - RIAT 2011 (6303565531).jpg|proposed: pointing left, frontside, blue sky
The current picture is really good at showing the P.180 configuration from above, the proposed is more classic and don't show it as well.--Marc Lacoste (talk) 21:10, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the current lead photo is a better choice as it shows the unique planform better. - Ahunt (talk) 01:34, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Main photo change 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 9 external links on Piaggio P.180 Avanti. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified