Talk:Syracuse/Archive 1

message: I must stress that this is not the American Wikipedia and given the status of English in the world today, it's basically the 'global' wikipedia. When outside the US someone talks about Syracuse, it's clear that one means the city in Italy. In fact, until two hours ago, I didn't even knew there was a city named like this in the US.
Anyway, in Wikipedia, it's customary that the original city to have the title... bogdan 12:14, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, we don't have Athens at a disambiguation page, nor Dresden or any one of the countless other town/city names, Portsmouth, Exeter etc. - FrancisTyers · 12:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Disagree, nearly all the comparisons mentioned are not worthy, as they compare a city of millions with a town of several thousand in the US. Syracuse, New York and Syracuse, Italy are of equal note. Their population is similar (Syracuse, New York is even slightly larger). Syracuse, Italy is of historical significance, Syracuse, New York is the urban center of a region with over one million inhabitants. Furthermore, as I have shown two years ago, Syracuse, New York is requested more than Syracuse, Italy. This disambiguation page has been in place for two years, and it is ridiculous to change this without consensus. Users looking for Syracuse, New York now have to click three times to reach their requested information. Just because you think an American city is insignificant, doesn't mean everyone else does. And if you really want to go by your "name recognition" argument, you'll find just as many people in the US and Canada who never knew Syracuse, Italy existed. I highly object to this move. -newkai | talk | contribs 12:30, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Syracuse, Italy is more notable, all the other places called "Syracuse" got the name from there, in fact, it is even more notable because Syracuse, New York is called that name. Your perspective seems to be in the minority here. I think a reasonable compromise could be had by adjusting the disambiguation note at the top of the Syracuse page when the Italian city is moved back. For example, "For the city in New York of the same name, see Syracuse, New York, for all other uses, see Syracuse (disambiguation)". - FrancisTyers · 13:12, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I think Francis is right here: the Italian city is so famous, that other cities were named after it! bogdan 13:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

text: It is true that Syracuse, New York was named after Syracuse, Italy (although the reasons are kind of random, see History section). What I'm saying is that not every older use of a city name qualifies making that one the main article. In many cases there's no doubt... Athens, London, Paris, Berlin, Vienna, etc. have no other municipality of comparison of equal size. But I do not think it applies to Syracuse. While your move does make it one step easier to get to Syracuse, Italy for those looking for that one, it makes it much harder for those looking for Syracuse, New York. And while that 88MB file is no longer accessible, believe me, Syracuse, New York is highly frequented. I know this isn't an American Wikipedia, but that doesn't matter. Look at :nl:Syracuse... that's Dutch and they have the same disambiguation! This isn't a Historic Wikipedia or a European Wikipedia either. It's a current, English language Wikipedia, and both Syracuses are significant today. As to my opinion being in the minority... It's 9 am on the American East Coast, 6 am on the West. People are asleep! -newkai | talk | contribs 13:27, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you think to my compromise proposal? It will not make it more difficult to get to Syracuse, New York than it is already (2 clicks). - FrancisTyers · 13:31, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it seems bogdan has moved it back. I've taken the liberty of updating the disambiguation note per my suggestion above. - FrancisTyers · 13:33, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While it's undoubtedly better than the three-click situation, I do believe this qualifies for "Equal" disambiguation. Like I said before, this isn't a Rome, Italy vs. Rome, New York. (Side note: Taking a 20-hour Wikication [need to relax instead of getting heartburn]... Please don't think I'm ignoring further comments!) -newkai | talk | contribs 13:46, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm with Newkai.  The historical significance of Syracuse alone does not grant it ownership of "Syracuse".  Syracuse, Italy should only be the primary page if it is clearly and unequivocally more notable than Syracuse, NY, which it is not. AdamBiswanger1 17:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd have to disagree there. Syracuse is more notable than Syracuse, New York. - FrancisTyers · 18:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well anyway, that's neither here nor there.  Unless Syracuse Italy is enormously and obviously more notable/famous/popular than Syracuse, NY, it should not retain ownership of that page name.  Take a look at NRA.  AdamBiswanger1 03:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: American Wikipedia

message: :This is Attilio from Italy. First, I say that I agree with the idea that this is a global and not US or UK or AUS wikipedia (a thing that most people tends to forget, and here is full of articles starting with "John Smith is a musician"... of what nationality? American? English? South African? etc.) As usual it's hard to define if an entry is more important than another... I decided to jump up to my good ol' Encyclopaedia Britannica, and it devotes double lines to the Italian article than the US one (by the way, I'm proud to reveal you that "our" WP articles are both better the EB's!!). I think the traffic reason has its importance, but at the same time I guess that the data our friend points out maybe could be limited to US traffic: I think that very few users outside US known Syracuse, NY, thus, if this must be an international encyclopedia, it is probable that users from throughout the world would probably aim to the Sicilian city in 99% of the cases. Ciao!--Attilios 17:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would disagree.  Syracuse University, in Syracuse, NY will probably fetch the most results, and it has several satellite campuses across the globe.  And even if Syracuse, Italy is more notable/popular, the main point is that if Syracuse, Italy is only marginally more important, and does not supercede all other Syracuses by leaps and bounds, then "Syracuse" must link to the disambiguation page. AdamBiswanger1 21:55, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

text: How's it not international if users get a disambig page when entering Syracuse? I think that's about as international as can be! -newkai | talk | contribs 12:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Britannica says: "Syracuse Italy more important than Syracuse NY"

message: To make an excellent counter argument, 9 of the 10 first Google results are in reference to Syracuse, New York when entering "Syracuse". In fact, 18 of the first 20 are (Syracuse, Indiana is #20). So one out of 20 Google results for Syracuse is about the Italian one. I'm not saying Google is almighty, but neither is Britannica. -newkai | talk | contribs 12:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, my post was largely humour. Frankly speaking, I cannot understand why do you stick so much about this question. What's the problem if 9 surfers out of 10 will jump first at Syracuse Italy? Maybe they'll learn something new: I think American society, in mean at least, is so self-referenced that a refresh of ancient, European culture will be sound. Now seriously, I think here we should provide a cultural product whose quality and ideals should not relate mainly on "quantity" of the traffic towards articles, but chiefly towards their "quality". If this was a service, like Google is, Syracuse US should have pre-eminence. But this is first a cultural product, at least in what I've seen to date.. and thus, being an encyclopedia, maybe we should refer to Britannica. See ya soon! --Attilios 12:36, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And we have quality... in both articles... -newkai | talk | contribs 12:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What I meant is that in an Encyclopedia Syracuse, Italy MUST be pre-eminent to Syracuse, New York, without regarding how many googles click the latter receives more. This, of course, IF the spirit here is that to produce an Encyclopedia. Open to Opinions. --Attilios 13:00, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But why MUST Syracuse, Italy be pre-eminent to Syracuse, New York, when they are of similar importance. I just don't understand your argument that Wikipedia apparently would be of lower quality if the two major Syracuses would be treated equally on a disambiguation page. -newkai | talk | contribs 13:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This stuff is boring me. Be happy with your nice and worlwide important Syracuse, New York. Ciao.--Attilios 13:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd rather be editing some article then argue here as well. Be happy with your nice and worldwide important Syracuse, Italy. Maybe I'll visit it some day. Ciao. -newkai | talk | contribs 13:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Google Says "Syracuse, New York is More Important than Syracuse, Italy" 

message: We need to come to a consensus. The same people are reverting back and forth. -newkai | talk | contribs 11:00, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Adam really shouldn't be doing Copy/Paste moves. They violate the GFDL and should be reverted on sight. - FrancisTyers · 11:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But wasn't this dispute started because someone copy/pasted Syracuse, Italy to Syracuse? -newkai | talk | contribs 11:29, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, the page was moved, not Copy/Pasted. - FrancisTyers · 11:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Enlighten me on this one... I thought the move function only works when the page-to-be-moved-to is non-existant. -newkai | talk | contribs 11:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The point isn't that I made a no-no by not jumping through the right hoops--it's that we need to reach a concensus on this issue.  Admittedly I was wrong, but let's deal with the issue at hand. AdamBiswanger1 11:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Amen to that -newkai | talk | contribs 11:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Adam, in order to find the consensus, you can propose the page move (Syracuse -> Syracuse, Italy), following the steps described in here: Wikipedia:Requested moves#Steps for requesting a page move. bogdan 12:11, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But where was the consensus to move Syracuse, Italy to Syracuse? Was that on Wikipedia:Requested moves too? -newkai | talk | contribs 12:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, but at the time, we had a consensus: me, Adam Bishop and Francis Tyers vs. you, so I've been bold. :-) bogdan 12:38, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I have requested the page be moved here.  Hopefully this will resolve the issue.  Regards, AdamBiswanger1 13:12, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Thank you, sir. You've just joined the club of Wheel warring admins :-) bogdan 13:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if there had been more common sense employed than boldness, such actions would not have been necessary. :)older ≠ wiser 14:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is getting ridiculous 

message: :SURVEY CLOSED Thanks for your time.
====Support====
#Support move. The American city was named after the famous city of Syracuse, now in Italy. It was an important city in the history of Europe for almost 2800 years. bogdan 14:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: #Support move. The American city was named after the famous city of Syracuse, now in Italy. It was an important city in the history of Europe for almost 2800 years. bogdan 14:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #Oppose move Syracuse, Italy may well be more notable, but it is smaller and it does not surpass Syracuse, NY in notability enough to be exempt from disambiguation.  Also, more than twice as many pages link to Syracuse, NY. AdamBiswanger1 14:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: #Google has more entries for Syracuse, New York.
#Added by Newkai: Larger City and Metropolitan Area
#Added by Newkai: Those historians that know Syracuse, Italy probably work at Maxwell School of Citizenship and Public Affairs (What I mean to say, large research university) Added by [user:Attilios|Attilios]]: this looks obscure and somewhat sarcastic for me.
#Added by Newkai: More wikilinks
I have said this before too... I am not saying Syracuse, New York is more important in the world than Syracuse, Italy. I'm just saying it is important enough (today... I'm not saying Ancient Greek times here) that there should be equal disambiguation. -newkai | talk | contribs 22:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're bringing irrelevant arguments: the number of wikilinks is influenced by articles of highways (New York State Route 290...) and templates (:Template:New York). It is known that there are more articles on United States topics than on Southern Italy topics... bogdan 22:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This also appears to apply to the entire internet. -newkai | talk | contribs 22:58, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The entire Internet is largely US-ruled. Us are the richer, mos techonologically advanced and most powerful country in the world. And the English Wikipedia is mostly written by Us editors: you can find a lot articles of obscure Iowa or British Columbia municipalities having far more wikilinks than Syracuse, Italy. As for inhabitants, Milan's metropolitan area is far larger than Rome, but this mean that Milan is more notable and has had more influence? The ruins of Pompeii are uninhabited today: is its relevance reduced for this reason? You must not use numerical preponderances to take advantage in what is a matter of culture. Ciao!--Attilios 23:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  A good analogy would be ancient Troy vs. Troy, New York. The ancient Troy is also unihabited today, unlike the NY city. bogdan 23:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: In favour of Syracuse, New York