Talk:England expects that every man will do his duty

message: How does one go about recommending a user be banned? 193.51.252.2 has been editing highly visible articles with images of penises, and has done so on this one more than once. Impaciente 00:31, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Banning

message: Battle_of_Trafalgar says the signal was sent at 11:50.  This article says 11:15 am.
I expect a wikipedian, more familiar with this historical event, will perform the edit.Neoncow 21:40, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timing 

message: No references and too short. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:58, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  FARC 

message: Where can I find the full Popham Code of 3000 words?
I can't find it using Google, any ideas?
Thanks
Pete Wood
petewood@pwa.demon.co.uk
Couldn't find it either, but someone must have translated the "England expects..." for Wiki, perhaps that person can provide more info. The Wiki link only shows translation to numerals. Jimaginator 17:36, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where can I find the full Popham Code of 3000 words? 

message: I was previously under the impression that the original version of the signal began 'Nelson Confides' as opposed to 'England Confides', prior to being altered to 'England Expects'. I live quite close to Portsmouth, where the current home of the Victory is, and have visited the ship on various occasions, and I think  that on guided tours of the ship/exhibits etc. at the Portsmouth Historic Dorkyards, I have heard/read that the original version was 'Nelson Confides'.
Can anyone else clarify this, as to which version is correct? Tom A Smith 16:21, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems unlikely, since there isn't any Popham code for "Nelson", to my knowledge.  So even if it was planned as that, it's not hard to see why it would have been changed to the three-flag code "England".  Slac speak up! 21:11, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Nelson Confides..." 

message: I love the timing of this article feature . . . kudos to whoever had that idea :).  Slac speak up! 21:12, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: ...Thanks :) →Raul654 07:51, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Timing

message: I've added a clarification that at the time England commonly meant the UK, and that the other constituent countries contributed: see the claim that Five of Nelson’s 27 captains of the Fleet were Scottish as were almost 30% of the crew, as well as the Ayshford Trafalgar Roll referring to place of recruitment as English (53 per cent), Irish (21 per cent), Scots seven per cent, although many more may have been recruited in England. Roughly similar proportions are reported in Nelson's crew, and the crew list of the Minotaur shows a mix of birthplaces. On a side note, there's a claim that the first Nelson monument was in Scotland. The "not all English" point's probably worth noting on other related articles. ...dave souza, talk 09:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: England expects..

message: Can anyone rise to the challenge to do an article similar to this one, but on a different famous phrase? Say, He blew with His winds, and they were scattered? (It's the Spanish Armada.) Carcharoth 01:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A challenge! 

message: This link purports to be Admiral Pophams Telegrap Signal Book 1806. It includes codes "253. England. English." and "1419. Ireland. Irish." but none for "Scotland" or "Britain".  This is relevant, so if a citable source can be found it should be added. I wonder when "Britain" was first explicitly coded. jnestorius(talk) 13:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "England" for "Britain" 

message: The article currently makes the claim that "Moreover, in the alphabet of that time V preceded U."  I can find no evidence for this; Noah Webster's spelling book from 1800 has the letters in the normal order: http://www.merrycoz.org/books/spelling/SPELLING.HTM.  I assume this is idiosyncratic to the flag code, and will provisionally edit the article on that basis with a citation needed flag.  --50.0.150.25 (talk) 07:24, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Moreover, in the alphabet of that time V preceded U" -- really? 

message: The only reference I can find in the citations for this "weighted with lead" claim about the codebooks is in citation 15, which really does not read like a reliable reference (note that it gets the order of U and V wrong, among other things) -- and what it says is that "The code-book should have been kept in a bag weighted with lead that would be thrown overboard before a ship was captured," which sounds as much like editorializing on what the Royal Navy should have done as it does a reference to what the actual procedures were.  (But see http://www.history.navy.mil/library/special/spec2.htm -- it was standard practice for some navies.)  --50.0.150.25 (talk) 07:53, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weighted with lead? 

message: Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that :File:England Expects Signal.svg will be appearing as picture of the day on October 21, 2013. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2013-10-21. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:00, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:File:England Expects Signal.svg]] to appear as POTD soon 

message: Until I edited it just now, the article said:
::Almost immediately, the signal began to be misquoted. A number of ships in the fleet recorded the signal as "England expects every man to do his duty," (omitting "that" and replacing "will" with "to"). This version became so prevalent that it is recorded around the base of Nelson's Column and on his tomb in St. Paul's Cathedral.
and cited http://web.archive.org/web/20060928143122/http://www.hms.org.uk/nelsonsnavyee.htm, which does say just that.
However, the article also includes a photo :File:Pedestal-nelson-column-trafalgar-london-uk.jpg that plainly shows the Nelson's Column inscription with a third version of the wording, using "will" but not "to".  Therefore, that this source is dubious.  Perhaps it is right for St. Paul's but wrong for Nelson's Column; or perhaps it is wrong for both.
Looking for other online imagery showing the actual inscription at St. Paul's, the only thing I could find is this page http://www.explore-stpauls.net/oct03/textMM/NelsonTombN.htm which shows a photo of the tomb, and a photo depicting Nelson's signal (with incorrect wording).  The page appears to say that this image is part of the floor surrounding the tomb, but if it is, you can't tell that from the photo.  If it is a true image of the floor of St. Paul's, then the wording at St. Paul's also has "will".
I figure this is a situation where the use of a primary source is appropriate: is anyone reading this in a position to go to St. Paul's and see for themselves what it says there?
Until this is straightened out, I've adjusted the sentence to read:
::This version became so prevalent that it is recorded on his tomb in St. Paul's Cathedral. The word "that" is also omitted on the version around the base of Nelson's Column, as seen in the photo above.
(with the reference left in place.)
--174.88.135.247 (talk) 17:49, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect incorrect version 

message: I question "... and logs would have been written up after the battle" in the article. I have read the relevant section of the log of HMS Euryalus on a number of occasions, and it certainly looks like something written up during a battle - there is hastily blotted up ink spilt on the page and it is nothing like a fair copy. (Incidentally, from memory Euryalus timed the message at 11:56. After the signal, it goes on to say "At noon light winds.....".) Is there any evidence that some of the log books were written up after the battle? If not, this should be deleted.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 11:26, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  timing of signal 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on England expects that every man will do his duty. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060301155941/http://www.atlasgeo.net:80/fotw/flags/xf~psf.html to http://www.atlasgeo.net/fotw/flags/xf~psf.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 11:50, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The picture showing Nelsons message in the mast of "Victory" is missing some letters. I could decode just "England expects every man will do his u"
--Gonzosft (talk) 10:45, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misspelling continued 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on England expects that every man will do his duty. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060919112358/http://www.nelsonsnavy.co.uk/traf-signals.html to http://www.nelsonsnavy.co.uk/traf-signals.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 07:13, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on England expects that every man will do his duty. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090905003837/http://www.nelsonsnavy.co.uk/Trafalgar.html to http://www.nelsonsnavy.co.uk/Trafalgar.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:05, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'm looking at this one for WP:URFA/2020.  There's a few issues that need addressed for this article to meet the featured article criteria.  The background stuff about what was going on with Trafalgar is all dumped in the lead and isn't really in the body - there's just an abrupt start to the article body with no context as to why what is happening is happening.  Additionally, there are prose issues, such as referencing an image that is no longer in the article.  There's also a small amount of uncited text, and several instances where references in literature and culture and just mentioned and self-sourced without properly explaining the significance of those references.  There are also several references that likely don't meet the high-quality RS requirement of the featured article criteria: Wikiquote, a blogspot site, a lineone.net website, and Flags of the World.  If these improvements are not made, a featured article review may be necessary. Hog Farm  Talk 05:42, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured article concerns 

message: I question the following (from the lead):
The cited source does not seem to refer to any confusion. The signal is precisely recorded in, for instance, the log book of  (kept in the Nelson Room at Lloyd's of London). What was the intention of the original editor of this part of the article? It appears to be, quite simply, wrong. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 07:12, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 07:42, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: To expand on the subject a bit more, the section After the battle states: The cited source for this is a blog run by a group of naval re-enactors. I question their status an an RS (no evidence that they meet the needs of WP:HISTRS). The source suggests that "A number of British ships" recorded the signal wrong. No mention of which ones, or where this information can be verified. A quick internet search for logbooks from the battle only reveals Victory's and Euryalus's logbooks - and an auction notice of transcriptions of a number of logbooks (which is presumably in private hands). Further work needs to be done on whether the ships in the battle made this error. The mistake on Nelson's tomb is easy to verify, as is the rephrasing of the signal to fit the music of a song. Whether these add up to a common misconception is a matter of judgement. Evidence against the misquoting is to be found in any kid's book on the Royal Navy from the days when school atlases showed half the world coloured red - it was an essential part of British education. I am satisfied that there was misquoting of the signal in the 19th century (though not sure what was the predominant form) and that in the early 20th century the correct signal is clearly the most common - but that is simply WP:OR. Hopefully some RS has covered the matter and can be found. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 16:46, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusion over wording?