Talk:Safavid dynasty/Archive 4

message: Encyclopaedia Iranica:
*"... The reign of Esmā'il is one of the most important in the history of Persia. The reasons for this are twofold: firstly, prior to his accession in 907/1501, Persia, since its conquest by the Arabs eight-and-a-half centuries earlier, had not existed as a separate entity but had been ruled by a succession of Arab caliphs, Turkish sultans, and Mongol khans. During the whole of this period, only under the Buyids (q.v.) did a substantial part of Persia come under Persian rule (334-447/945-1055) ..." (R.M. Savory, EIr, Online Edition, Link)
This quote makes clear that Shah Ismail was neither a Turk, nor an Arab or a Mongol. He is directly compared to the Buyids, the last ethnic Iranian dynasty to rule Persia before the Turkic domination.
As for the origin of the Safavid family, the Encyclopaedia Iranica states (my comments are in [...]):
*"... Azari [= Middle-Iranian language spoken in Azerbaijan before the Turkic conquest] lost ground [in Azerbaijan] at a faster pace than before, so that even the early Safavids, originally an Iranian-speaking clan (as evidenced by the quatrains of Shaikh Safi-al-Din, their eponymous ancestor, and by his biography), became Turkified and adopted Turkish as their vernacular ..." (Ehsan Yarshater, Book 1, p. 240, Link) 
If language and preserved poetry are the only definitions of "ethnicity", as some in here claim, then I do not understand why the Ghaznavids and Seljuqs are considered "Turks", although their neither spoke tor supoorted Turkish. 
*"... The Ghaznavid sultans were ethnically Turkish, but the sources, all in Arabic or Persian, do not allow us to estimate the persistence of Turkish practices and ways of thought amongst them. ... Mas'ud I had a good knowledge of Arabic poetry and was a competent Persian chancery stylist (Bosworth, Ghaznavids, pp. 129-30) ... Persianisation of the state apparatus was accompanied by the Persianisation of high culture at the Ghaznavid court. ... The Ghaznavids thus present the phenomenon of a dynasty of Turkish slave origin which became culturally Persianized ..." (C.E. Bosworth, EIr, Online Edition, Link)
R.M. Savory - Professor Emeritus, University of Toronto - writes in another article:
*" ... If one looks at the record of Iranian historians during the same period, the scene is similar: a rather barren landscape relieved by a few lofty peaks. In 1927-8 Ahmad Kasravi led the way with the publication of three seminal articles entitled Nizhad va Tabar-i Safaviyya (`The genealogy of the Safavids'); Safaviyya sayyid nabuda and (`The Safavids were not sayyids'); and Baz ham Safaviyya (`The Safavids again')[17]. Kasravi disputed the validity of the `official' Safavid genealogy contained in the Safvat al-Safa and followed by most later Safavid chronicles[18], and argued convincingly that the ancestors of Shaykh Safi al-Din, who founded the Safavid Order (tariqa), were indigenous inhabitants of Iran (az bumiyan-i bastan-i iran budan) and were of pure Aryan stock (juz nizhad-i aryani nadashta and). Today, the consensus among Safavid historians is that the Safavid family hailed from Persian Kurdistan. Kasravi's important articles were published in the journal Ayandeh, which was not readily available in the West, and, despite the fact that they were republished as a pamphlet in 1944, in an expanded and revised form, they unfortunately continued to be overlooked by many historians. These included the Turkish scholar Zeki Velidi Togan who, working on the oldest available MSS. of the Safvat al-Safa, independently reached many of the same conclusions reached by Kasravi thirty years earlier[19]. At the same time, Togan tried to lay to rest the persistent claim by Turkish historians that Shah Isma'il I was a Turk, but this claim resurfaced from time to time in the writings of Turcophiles, such as David Ayalon[20], and was usually based on the fact that Isma'il spoke the Azari dialect of Turkish, which Toynbee calls one of "the vulgar tongues of camp and court"[21], and had written poems in Azari under the pen-name of Khata'i. ..." R.M. Savory
And ths is what the Encyclopaedia of Islam says:
*"... SAFAWIDS , a dynasty which ruled in Persia as sovereigns 907-1135/1501-1722, as fainéants 1142-8/1729-36, and thereafter, existed as pretenders to the throne up to 1186/1773. I. Dynastic, political and military history. The establishment of the Safawid state in 907/1501 by Shāh Ismāīl I [q.v.] (initially ruler of Ādharbāyjān only) marks an important turning-point in Persian history. In the first place, the Safawids restored Persian sovereignty over the whole of the area traditionally regarded as the heartlands of Persia for the first time since the Arab conquest of Persia eight and a half centuries previously. During the whole of that time, only once, during what Minorsky termed “the Iranian intermezzo” (334-447/945-1055), did a dynasty of Persian origin prevail over much of Iran [see BUWAYHIDS]; for the rest, Persia was ruled by a succession of Arab caliphs, and Turkish and Mongol sultans and khāns.  ..." (Savory/Brujin/Newman/Welch/others, EI, Online Edition, PW protected)
Does that need any further explanation?!
I am sure that User:An Siarach disagrees ...
Tājik 18:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Encyclopaedia Iranica]] and [[Encyclopaedia of Islam]] on the Safavids 

message: Looking at any article about Iran's history or Iran's personalities there are editors out there that are continuously and intentionally creating misconceptions.
For example they put the word "Persian" (which if clicked takes the viewer to the ethnic Persians, not Iranians as a whole) before the name mystic Sheikh Safi al-Din, who WAS by no means "Persian" and could have been more likely to be partly or totally Kurdish, but not Persian. But there are so many out there that will revert in case it is removed.
They will often intentionally replace "Azeri" to "Turkmen" for suggesting the ethnicity of the Safavid or even the Qajar. I edited both and they were reversed by different persons, so I gave up, and the reversing had no reason, one wrote "false information." What is false information? The Safavid or the Qajar were TURKMEN???? The word Turkmen refers to the people of Turkmenistan. No Turkmen ever ruled over Iran. There is no proof for this. When you click on "Turkemn" it takes the viewer to the people of Turkmenistan. The editors intentionally replace Azeri in many cases with Turkmen in order to create confusion. The Safavid and the Qajar came from the teritories located by Azerbaijanis, the spoke Azeri language and there is ample evidence, and they were Shia, and there is ample evidence of these. But so many editors out there would like to create confusion, therefore reducing the value and accuracy of the articles. They are either paid to do so by the Iranian regime in order to create confusion or they are simple Persian (Fars) nationalists who have a lot of free time at their hands. 
I edited what was related to Shah Ismail (the founder of the Safavid dynasty) and it was reversed too, twice, so I gave up. Shah Ismail's mother was from the Ak Koyunlu (Aq Qoyunlu) nobility, not Turkem. Again, Turkmen is about Turkmenistan, it has nothing to do with people living in north-west of Iran, where obviously the family of Shah Ismail lived. Then again in order to create confusion Ak Koyunlu was changed to Turkmen.
Falsity prospers at Wikipedia as long as there are enough editors out there to write what they wish to be factual and many of them are personally or politically motivated.
I also edited the article about "Iranian Azerbaijan" and it wad all reversed. The article is poor and mostly POV but that serves the POV of so many people who are here to uphold their POV violently and inconsistently.
I think these issues require Wikipedia administration to intervene and not allow changes until they are based on reliable proof or references.
Middle-Eastern people are not like Westerners, Middle-Easterners will not get along amiably to solve problems. Look at Iraq now! If there is no DICTATOR to tell them what to do and what not to do. And at Wikipedia issues regarding the Middle-East and its people (I am Azeri myself, so Middle-Easterner in fact) shall be more dictatorial, less open to individual manipulation, because inaccuracy or chaos will dominate. Bm79 15:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serious Problem!! Most information about the Azeris are seriously and continuously manipulated.