Talk:Organ transplantation in China

message: ::Don't be confused between "prisoners sentenced to death" and "executed prisoners"
::As common sensed, a prisoner is executed (killed) after and only after that prisoner is sentenced to death. That is why in wording and in many reports, it say "executed prisoners" but actually the meanings is that "those prisoners who are sentenced to death and then are executed".
::However, in this particular situation in China, the BIG problem is that among those "executed prisoners" there are many who are not sentenced to death at all. As the matter of facts, those Falun Gong practitioners are "prisoners sentenced to nothing" (this is the term in the book "Bloody Harvest", meaning they are in detention centers and labor camps without lawful trials). The organ harvesting process is also understood as an execution process in it true sense.
::So, long ago, China agreed that they use "executed prisoners" as source; and now, yes, they also agree about that. The "term" does not change. But the meanings behind changed. Or more correctly, our own understandings about China had been changed. Prior 2006 incidents, we understood that those "executed prisioners" were "prisoners sentenced to death". But after 2006 report, we understand that those number of "prisoners sentenced to deaths" is way too small (about 1,700 per year) compared to the number of transplants (at least 11.000 per year)
::So when talking about numbers, we should separate: "prisoners sentence to death" and "executed prisoners but not sentenced to death". Because it is the true issue of China now. Of course, taking organs from "living" and "dead" bodies is also a big problem, too. But technically speaking, it is not easy to tell. For example, how you can say a particular organ is taken from a living prisoner? And how many of them are still alive at that point of organ harvesting? But it is much easier to point out that a large number of them are not sentenced to death.
103.9.196.17 (talk) 04:53, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Prisoner types

message: I would like to suggest a review + re-arrange an English article about Organ Harvesting in China,
The ideas is that follow.
----
The  rewrite is to "break" the article into 4 parts:
1. What were happened before 2006
2. The 2006 story of wife of surgeon, and The Allegations, and then the investigations + results
3. What is the responses of important bodies after 2006
4. Some topics that should be viewed separately in the view of legal, virtue, medical,...
=== Part 1: Before 2006 ===
The part (1) is basically telling the background story, which is something like that: as for Transplant, China was doing it wrong, and international communities already had a lot of criticisms about that: (i) taking organ from prisoners without a transparent procedure; (ii) having no organ donation program/system to collect organs from the mass; which resulted in that executed prisoners were the only viable source of organ.
Before the 2006 incident, those criticisms were not *very* harsh, because, after all, those people were prisoners sentenced to death. Apparently the situation were not as grave as today.
=== Part 2: Allegations and investigations ===
The part (2) expresses that once after the 2006 testimony, the situation is clearly changed in the essences: those victims were not prisoners sentenced to death, they were prisoners sentenced to nothing. So, the "wrong procedure" (what ever you call it) happened before 1999 2000 now became a "crime". Which should be treated totally differently. The call for China to make the procedure transparent is much more demanding now.
The Allegations is a sort of Allegations from the consciences:
1. What China were doing before 1999 2000 were wrong (getting organs from prisoners without a proper procedure, and having no other source of organs); and now, after the boom of transplant tourism, that wrong way of doing became a "crime". As long as China has no transparent organ harvesting procedure, this Allegation is still valid. Note that China openly admitted in 2005 that they were harvesting organs from prisoners.
2. Falun Gong practitioners and other prisoners of consciences are (the main) victims.
The point (1) has nothing to investigate, because China already admit it in 2005. Now it is to tell China to have proper laws and policies about that (which China still not do it until today)
The point (2) require investigations to prove or disprove it.
Writing that way has some good benefits (which I learn after reading the book Bloody Harvest).
First, it tell the readers "not to be shocked" by seeing what's happening in China. China just continued what they had been doing since 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s, it was only that now they had a new (and big) batch of prisoners.
Second, it tell the readers not to be confused when thinking that "Organ Harvesting" is "Falun Gong issue". It is CCP's issue, not Falun Gong's. And that issue had been there long before the crack down.
Then there came investigations. Kilgour Matas works was one (and the best) of them. There were other investigations and their results. This article should tell one by one. Doing that way is to give a clear view for readers.
=== Part 3: What the involved parties say and do? What the other big guys say and do? ===
The part (3) should be rewrite and update with new information. Well, there are many of them.
===== The reaction of China =====
1. Official reactions. Yes, it is very good to list what China officially say and do about this. No matter how many they say and do, the real situation is still the same as before: no transparent procedure and no real organ donation system in place. Now, it is 2014, the situation is the same.
2. Unofficial reactions. Yes, it is also very good to list what China unofficial do about this. Especially whenever the organ harvesting issue arise, they bring Falun Gong in, as if it is Falun Gong's issue. There are many more example of how China do disinformation about this. After all, when the criminal is pointed out, the first thing it do is to deny it. After it cannot deny it, it would make thing confused.
===== The reaction of Falun Gong =====
Why not openly tell the reaction of Falun Gong? Falun Gong group has all the full rights to say openly and clearly about what damages they got. So, all the reaction of Falun Gong go here. Not need to tell in all other parts; just write in this one part.
===== The reaction of UN =====
How Mr Novak ask China in 2007 and 2008, and how he was ignored. etc.
UPR 2009, how China was asked to allow 3rd parties investigations and how China rejected it. etc.
...
===== The reaction of EU =====
2013 resolution
===== The reaction of US =====
...
===== The reaction of Others =====
=== Part 4: Miscellaneous Technical Stuffs ===
I find that it should be helpful to briefly tell some (small) topics in a more "scientific" way. There are something that only can be seen clearly when being seen in the light of medical, legal (law), human rights... view.
# The requirement of organ matching, why? An organ must be plant within 12h or 24h, why?
# So, there are 'technical' reason why the waiting time in other countries is so long. Then, why the waiting time in China is so short?
# Buying and selling human organs or parts is the issue of both law and humanity. What the WHO Principle Guidelines say about this? That's why the transparent procedure of organ harvesting is very important. That's why the world has been insisting demanding China to do that since 1980s 1990s, long before the boom of transplant tourism. Until now, when China is a leading player in the field, it still not do it. You know, some readers do not really understand that organs are not something to trade. The whole medical industry has been investing a lot about laws and guidelines to make sure things go right.
# The existence of a working organ donation system is important, which all other countries do. The point is that the organ transplant industry cannot based on a pool of prisoners, right? As long as China has no working donation system, all their laws and policies are just empty talks, unless they stop the organ transplant industry.
SenTrang (talk) 08:09, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Recommend to Re-arrange this article

message: I find that it should be helpful to briefly tell some (small) topics in a more "scientific" way. There are something that only can be seen clearly when being seen in the light of medical, legal (law), human rights... view.
# The requirement of organ matching, why? An organ must be plant within 12h or 24h, why?
# So, there are 'technical' reason why the waiting time in other countries is so long. Then, why the waiting time in China is so short?
# Buying and selling human organs or parts is the issue of both law and humanity. What the WHO Principle Guidelines say about this? That's why the transparent procedure of organ harvesting is very important. That's why the world has been insisting demanding China to do that since 1980s 1990s, long before the boom of transplant tourism. Until now, when China is a leading player in the field, it still not do it. You know, some readers do not really understand that organs are not something to trade. The whole medical industry has been investing a lot about laws and guidelines to make sure things go right.
# The existence of a working organ donation system is important, which all other countries do. The point is that the organ transplant industry cannot based on a pool of prisoners, right? As long as China has no working donation system, all their laws and policies are just empty talks, unless they stop the organ transplant industry.
SenTrang (talk) 08:09, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Part 4: Miscellaneous Technical Stuffs 

message: I would certainly not rate this as a good article, not in its current form. —Zujine|talk 21:53, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you expand what you mean by "major facelift" and "visually appealing"? I've looked again at the article and I'm not sure what you mean - other than perhaps having an image in the lead. I agree that images are useful, though I haven't found a suitable free use image of organ transplantation in China, other than Falun Gong related ones, and I would rather not use those in the lead as that would be giving undue weight to the Falun Gong issues. SilkTork *YES! 10:34, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think a serious article like this needs to be overly "visually appealing." In particular, we should be wary of adding too many lurid FLG "torture displays," thus compromising what should be a neutral presentation of quite serious allegations. Zujine, are you sure you read the article carefully? It actually appears to be quite thorough and well-researched. I'm impressed with the work of the editors here. This subject is notoriously controversial, and a neutral, independent presentation is often hard to come by. Bravo. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 18:58, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Good article

message: From the title of the article, I was expecting to read about the number of organ transplants being done, which centres (hospitals) are involved, differences in treatment regimens with the West, etc.. This article is actually about illegal organ harvesting. The title should be changed accordingly. Axl ¤ [Talk] 09:47, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is general information on the numbers of transplants, and history and development of transplants, the local attitude toward transplants; the legal situation regarding transplants, and how this has changed over the years, and how the local attitude toward transplants is changing. There is a fair amount of general information regarding organ transplantation in China. I agree, however, that there is a weighting toward the some of the international concerns regarding organ transplantation - this, though, is appropriate, as that is the most significant aspect of the topic, and needs to be explored in reasonable depth. Where I am less certain, is the amount of material on the Falun Gong allegations - that does seen disproportionate, and should be split out per WP:Summary style; and it has long been my intention to split that out into a stand alone article. There are issues surrounding that, however. A stand alone article previously existed, and has been merged into this article - and that has been disputed, and some of the people involved in that dispute are under ArbCom sanctions. I am interested to see how an uninvolved GA reviewer would deal with 3 (b) (stays focused) of the Wikipedia:Good article criteria. SilkTork *YES! 11:21, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is indeed some general information regarding the number of transplants, local attitudes, and the legal situation. This is all relevant background information for an article about "Illegal Organ Transplantation in China". It is entirely inadequate in an article about "Organ Transplantation in China". If I was GA reviewing this article, I would require that the article's title should be changed. If you really expected me to review this article with its current title, I would quick-fail it. It has excessive undue weight on the illegal aspects of transplantation. It has no mention of the numbers of lung transplants, heart transplants, etc.. Which hospitals is this done in? What are the indications for the various transplants? How many lung transplants are performed for cystic fibrosis? How many for emphysema? What are the drug regimens used? How long do patients survive after transplant? How does this compare with the West? Axl ¤ [Talk] 09:50, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a good point. Then why not change it to "Illegal Organ Harvesting in the PRC," and have another article called "Organ Transplantation in the PRC," which discusses the legitimate aspects of the Chinese trade in organs? Those two articles should be sufficient. From what I can see on the page now, FLG's sensational claims don't warrant a new article. Another approach is to clearly break the article into parts that discuss the legitimate and illegitimate organ transplanting practices. However, the same undue weight problem may emerge, when it's discovered that there is an abundance of information on illicit practices, but little on legal ones.The Sound and the Fury (talk) 19:04, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  TheSoundAndTheFury, I agree with your first suggestion. Axl ¤ [Talk] 08:41, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Then why don't we simply do that? The Sound and the Fury (talk) 13:47, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Look, fellers, we just got this to GA. I hope that instead of doing a premature split and end up with two stubs, I think we should build the [legal] transplantation part of this article first. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 14:45, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  As I noted above, I dispute the validity of this article as a GA under its current title. Axl ¤ [Talk] 08:42, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article's title 

message: Here are a number of journal articles which could be used to improve this articles scope.
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Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:35, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the list Doc James. Some of the links lead to subscription sites, and from the abstracts seem to cover what is already included in the article. This article can be read in full, and I'm not seeing much new information; indeed, it seems quite coy on certain details, and I would argue that the Wikipedia article contains more information. SilkTork *YES! 09:59, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

text: I think it would better if someone who knows Chinese reads the original Chinese version of these articles, instead of using the translated version.--Jsjsjs1111 (talk) 09:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Reviews

message: I am dismayed to see that SilkTork has nominated this article. While the article has improved a little since the GA review in 2010, persisent problems remain regarding criteria 3a and 3b. Axl ¤ [Talk] 19:21, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  New GAN 

message: I don't see the copyvio, but this template messed up the page. Hard to resolve a problem that is not explained. TheBlueCanoe 04:49, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: We both made edits in rapid succession here.  In response to this, I now see the offending paragraph which was lifted from the news article, but there's a pretty simple solution to that problem, which is to rewrite or paraphrase it. I've done that. What needs to be oversighted and why? What am I missing? TheBlueCanoe 05:00, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I know how important this article is to Falun Gong propagandists, but you should accept it as an unfortunate consequence of one of your fellow FLG editors choosing to plagiarise an entire chunk of it. That chunk that was copied was entirely gratuitous ad I was actually looking to remove it. As I intimated in the edit summary, the current practice requires admin review plus oversight, so that the offending copyvio isn't visible in any of the diffs. So, please don't lift the tag, otherwise no admin will know to take care of it. Regards, -- Ohc ¡digame! 06:00, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not necessary to respond to polite queries with ad hominems.  Anyway, I suggest you read the template more carefully next time. It looks like there are several steps to properly initiate a copyright investigation, which includes posting a notice on the offending editor's talk page and, more importantly, filing the request at Wikipedia:Copyright_problems/2015 March 27. I've taken the liberty of doing that for you. Simply putting the template on the page will not automatically result in a resolution. All it does is make that section inaccessible to readers. Lastly, one need not be a "Falun Gong propagandist" to understand that the killing of religious or political prisoners for their organs is an important issue. TheBlueCanoe 02:07, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyvio?