Talk:Cornish people/Archive 1

message: I wonder if saying Cornish is an ethnic group is POV. What counts? Someone considering themselves to be ethnic Cornish - or all residents of Cornwall? Secretlondon 12:19, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm no ethnicitiy expert but I'd say that there as valid an ethnic group as the Welsh or English. I'd guess that you wouldn't be able to count *every* resident of Cornwall but I'm not sure who you would count -- Joolz 12:46, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Presumably Cornish emigrants to the rest of the UK also maintain their cornish ethnicity.  None of the Cornish people I know online still live in Cornwall.  And also English people who move to Cornwall presumably also maintain their English ethnicity. I suspect disentangling these two populations may be impossible. Morwen - Talk 13:42, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is information in Modern Celts which implies that the existance of ethnic celts is a recent invention/perception (post world war 2). Secretlondon 13:59, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a view worth covering in the article, for sure -- Joolz 14:11, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  If someone wants to refer to themselves as a member of a Cornish ethnic group, that is their right.  Culturally, ethnically/genetically, historically, the Cornish are no more a separate people than any other group within England or Britain.  The practice of calling onesself 'Cornish' as an ethnic title is primarily divisive and I would wager something more akin to identity starved Americans than to actual people in Cornwall, the majority (non-black, Asian or continental European) of whom, like the majority of all people in England and Britain, are indigenous Britons.  Enzedbrit 12:34, 17 August 2005
Link here estimating the number of Cornish people in Cornwall as 40-50% of total population. 
Page by the census people explaining their categorisation scheme. 
You'll note they are asking two different (overlapping) questions - one on Ethnicity, in which "White British" is the answer for Welsh, Scottish and English people, and Cornish is lumped in with that, and Nationality, which can be English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish or British, along with a field for Other.  It appears breakdowns of the Other field have not been released, and in any case it is likely some Cornish self-identified people would describe themselves as British nationality. Morwen - Talk 15:56, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

text: How many people were Cornish in those censuses then?  Not much point adding that they were conducted without saying it.  Morwen - Talk 11:26, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I think this page should certainly exist - as there are clearly some people who consider themselves to be ethnic Cornish. The question is how many people whom a Cornish nationalist would consider to be ethnic Cornish, consider themselves to be ethnic Cornish. I feel strongly that we shouldn't state information from one side uncritically - there is material in Modern Celts we should use as balance. Regionalism/nationalism is controversial - let's write about the argument. Secretlondon 12:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Excuse me, if go to to Talk:English people you will note I have been at the forefront of challenging the stupidity of that estimate of English people too.  Telling us to "go look it up" when you are challenged as to the sources of the claims you are making is not helpful.  Morwen - Talk 16:09, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The all new singing and dancing Cornish people page 

message: "Recent genetic research has shown that the Cornish carry on average about 75% DNA in common with the Britons, however this is not unusual across the British isles, the invading Germanics of the post roman period leaving less of a mark than was expected in the gene pool."
I've removed this as it's unsourced and silly as it stands. According to Genomics humans share 75% of their DNA with a roundworm, and 98% with chimpanzees. We need to say which research and what they meant by Briton. Secretlondon 15:07, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Your link is to a forum on an Anglo-Saxon web site. You've only given half the URL - they should be formatted like so. Do we know where this survey was published and whether anyone's been able to replicate its findings? Secretlondon 15:53, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Sorry, you must have taken this from somewhere.  Please tell us where from.  It should be a simple matter.  I've googled for a few of the phrases in the text and not found any hits.  Morwen - Talk 16:06, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

text: The article at this link doesn't mention Cornish people but is just about the general White British population.  I don't see any futher links from that.  Morwen - Talk 16:11, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Ok. The link gives a comment which is a link  to a web site on race. The actual link is to an article in the Observer. It mentions that Mark Thomas is an academic at University College London. We need the actual study, and whether this is accepted fact or not. Secretlondon 16:32, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Great. We need to be really careful about bias - we want this article to be really, really good. When things are controversial we need to know who said them. When science is quoted we need to know where it's from - some media science isn't worth anything quite frankly. Secretlondon 16:25, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just done a major rewrite of the Y chromosome analysis section in Anglo-Saxons using both the Y chromosome census of the British Isles and the Y chromosome evidence for mass Anglo-Saxon migration papers. Too many people were using very biased and essentially incorrect journalistic interpretations of the papers, rather than the original research papers. The data show that Cornish (and to a slightly lesser extent Scots) men's Y chromosomes (and it's only men as it's Y chromosome) are somewhat closer to Welsh/Irish/Basque (the indigenous chromosome for the sake of the study as they all cluster together in the analysis) than any other English samples. All English samples show a significant indigenous input, with York, the least indigenous being about 60% Germanic (Danish/German/Frisian- these are the Anglo-Saxon/Danish-Viking sources). Links to both papers are at Anglo-Saxons if you want to read the papers yourself. Alun 11:01, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: DNA

message: "In the last few year the Council of Europe has been applying increasing pressure on the UK government to recognise the Cornish for protection under the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities.".
I've left this in it but its unsourced and needs to be referenced. You need to Cite your sources - especially when they are controversial. Secretlondon 16:39, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Council of Europe

message: I think the Cornwall page could be reduced now that the Culture of Cornwall and Cornish people pages exist, why double up on the information?
Bretagne 44 27/7/05
:See Wikipedia:Summary_style for advice on this.  Morwen - Talk 15:30, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reduce the [[Cornwall]] pages

message: You're not going to like this you little unionist british type people but je m'en fou.
Added this link to a BBC story on the Welsh that contains info on the numbers of Cornish.
*According to a recent Morgan Stanley Bank survey, 44 per cent of the inhabitants of Cornwall believe themselves to be Cornish rather than British or English.
Bretagne 44  17:06, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Numbers of Cornish

message: ::Lest see if we can summarise GrandfatherJoe's views to see if he has even an ounce of integrity or impartiality.
Personally, I don't know much about this new Cornish nation ideology, all I know is that just about 2% of Cornwall seem to agree with it
* That much is evident so why don't you try to find out a bit more, start with the CCC timeline, its really quite good you know.
Now I don't want to speak for all the inhabitants of Cornwall, but if the remaining 98% are not ethnically Cornish, what are they? I would suspect that they view themselves as English
* This is your POV, most ticked white British.
I believe that this must be made perfectly clear in the article that this Cornish ethnicity stuff is very controverial and is rejected by the significant majority of the Cornish people
* POV again, infact you don't know the figures do you?
extremist nonsense twice
* Just because i have been raised by a family and community that led me to think of myself as Cornish; just because some Cornish want equal rights, protection of their language, the right to learn their history and the right to call themsleves by the name in their hearts they are extremist nationalists. However if English people do the same then they are just good hearted cultural activists. What digusting double standards, i see people on this board are not so quick to question the numbers of English or the motivation behind the contributors on that page but here yes, where is your integrity?
promote extremist nonsense that only about 7,000 people agree with
* Again your POV.
Hold your breath until the next time I edit the page if you like; you will find that turning blue suits you
* Just very silly really!
than the followers of this new ideology, cult or whatever it is
* Your lack of historical knowledge is shocking, try some of the links like The Cornish a negelcted nation by Mark Stoyle.
He wants us to accept that there are 250,000 ethnically Cornish
* Please find where i have written that, our do you just like to misrepresent people.
* Actually i wrote the following:
*I think the numbers in this article (especially the headline figure) have been POV, and I would prefer to see a range of (referenced) estimates for the Cornish population figures, which clearly highlight the range of definitions of 'Cornish people', 'Cornish ethnicity' and are clearly rooted in these definitions
* I think this is a good idea lets apply it with equal zeal (which i know your are all so keen to do) to the English people page and why not all the other people pages, as far as i know the majority in England also ticked white British so i guess they are not English then.
Bretagne 44 17:33, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems that Bretagne 44 likes to take people's quotes out of context and then misrepresent them (a Straw man argument), the tactics are well known. Gee, I bet he thought that no one would notice. If he insists on calling my statements POV then I must say then that that makes two of us. I must also emphasise that I have never edited the Cornish people and inserted POV into it like Bretagne 44 does. He also says that what is written in the article will remain there until a consensus (not concensus) is reached (ie he approves them). He is also evading the subject by trying to direct our attention to another article, a standard tactic of someone who has no sources to back his arguments. As for the English population of other countries (I cannot be sure, I didn't write them) there seems to be some sources. Such as the links EuroAmericans.net and the 2001 Canadian Census give us some indication of the state in the Americas. As for Australia, South Africa, South America and Ireland. We can assume that these figures come from the religion of the people there. Most English people belong to the Church of England. So I suppose that whoever compiled the table looked for adherents of the Church of England in these regions and got his/her estimates from there. Unless of course you believe that the native Irish or Argentinians are also adherents of the CofE. It seems that Bretagne 44 will have to get up earlier in the morning before trying to accuse me of double standards while he has espoused them on many many occasions. I would also like to point out that he has still not told us where he got his 250,000 ethnic Cornish figure from (of course I know, it's his POV). GrandfatherJoe 18:06, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Will you two (Bretagne 44 and GrandfatherJoe) stop bickering like a couple of elderly housewives! That will get us nowhere. In my opinion, the best thing to do now is to wait for the results of the 2001 census results to be delivered and then use that data. REX 18:32, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Bretagne 44 you really should read straw man argument. It has you written all over it. It is by now a stale tactic. GrandfatherJoe 16:16, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''POV continued''' 

message: Do we know who carried this out? I can't find any reference to it in Cornwall County Council's statistics pages. It would be good to get the % who ticked Cornish. Secretlondon 15:54, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've emailed the LEA. Secretlondon 15:31, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 2004 school census

message: Added the following link
*Celtic Frontier or County Boundary? Competing discourses of a late nineteenth century British border
Bretagne 44 14:52, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Celtic Frontier or County Boundary?

message: The idea that the numbers who voted for Mebyon Kernow some how indicate the numbers of Cornish is wrong so i have added the following:
However all the Cornish seats returned Liberal Democrat MP's, and it should be noted that the Liberal Democrats in Cornwall have campaigned for Cornish language issues , Cornish national minority issues and for the establishment of a devolved Cornish Assembly  and development agency .
Bretagne 44 17:16, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Politics

message: I received a reply from Cornwall County Council. It goes as follows:
-------------------
You are probably aware that Cornish was not a tick box ethnicity option in the 2001 Census. People had to write it on their forms.
 
Throughout the UK 37,603 people did that, of whom 33,932 were residents of Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly.
 
Malcolm Brown
Senior Research and Information Officer
 
***************************************************************
Please note that the Council may need to disclose this e-mail under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 or the Environmental Information Regulations 2004.
 
Important: This e-mail and its attachments are intended for the above-named only and may be confidential. If they have come 
to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must
you copy or show them to anyone; please e-mail us immediately 
at enquiries@cornwall.gov.uk
Security Warning: Although this e-mail and its attachments have
been screened and are believed to be free from any virus, it is
the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that they are virus free.
The Authority will not accept liability for any damage caused by a virus
----------------------------
If anyone doesn't believe me, If they send me their e-mail I will forward them a copy of the original message. REX 20:35, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a good result for an emerging ideology, but doesn't this put that 250,000 figure in perspective? The statistics indicate that just under 10% of the inhabitants of Cornwall identify with the Cornish ethnic group. What do the rest perceive themselves as? REX 19:40, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

text: What difference does that make to the reliability of the 250,000 figure? Are we allowed to say that while the census found 33,932 Cornish people in Cornwall, because it was badly publicised not everyone knew that they could write Cornish on their forms, but Bretagne 44 with his magnificent psychic abilities knows that 216,068 more people would have entered Cornish on to their forms if they had known that they could? I think that that seems to touch upon original research (guesswork) which incidentally happens to be prohibited. Why should the Morgan Stanley research be believed over the census results? Apart from the fact that the Morgan Stanley estimate is closer to the kind of estimate that Bretagne 44 likes to believe is true, he is willing to dismiss the census on the grounds that not everyone knew about it, but believes that a 4,000 people survey is much more reliable than a census. Personally, as I am not familiar with the basic tenets of Cornish nationalism, I don't know if one has to renounce being British in order to be ethnically Cornish, but if not then I believe that there should have been a British Cornish tick box. Maybe there will in the next census. I would also like to know, if this Cornish ethnicity stuff is as old as you say it is, then why do not so many people know about it? GrandfatherJoe 17:46, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statistics, fresh and warm from Cornwall County Council 

message: If you look at the news article here, you'll see that people were given a three way choice of whether they thought they were Cornish, English or British, and they had to choose one of them.  This figure of 44% is therefore including people who think they are English as well, but Cornish first.
Compare this to the rest of England, where, 21% of the people made similar identification with their county first.  I will have to get a copy of the full results, but I would guess in say, Yorkshire and Lancashire this could be 30% or so.  So is evidence of a strong regional identity.  But not necessarily of national identity.  Clearly, however, the Census figure is a lower limit, but this is an upper limit, which means the real figure is probably somewhere in between.
By the way, I am not an English (or any sort of) nationalist, and I resent any implication that I am so.  I have emailed MSB asking if this survey can be made available to me, so we can confirm the methodology, and also get the stats for English and counties.
It might also be interesting to try to get statistics about place of birth.  How many living people born in Cornwall have are now living elsewhere and vice versa?  Morwen - Talk 13:29, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've had an email back from MSB, who are indicating they might send me the press release, and asking why.  I've replied.  I don't think we'll get the entire survey though. Morwen - Talk 14:58, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: OK.  I've had a reply.  Figures were more varied than I had expected.  37% for Derbyshire.  Maybe we need a Derbyshire people article?  ;) Morwen - Talk 15:45, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well if there was a long history of people in Derbyshire identifying as other than English, another language, a specific constitutional position, competing national identity and Derbyshire nationalist party then maybe there should be such a page, but seeing as there isn't i would say yours is just a glib and vacuous remark
Bretagne 44 15:51, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I think he means English people moving to Cornwall and considering themselves to have a Cornish identity (ie based on residency not ethnicity) Secretlondon 23:14, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, that actually seems more likely.  Thanks.  I've changed it to say that instead. sjcollier 11:49, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: MSB survey

message: I would like to encourage contribution to a section that will look at references to the Cornish people as a distinct British people throught the history of these isles. Now there have been a lot of individuals wanting to contribute to the Cornish people page of late so i know i will not be short of help. Integrity
Bretagne 44 12:33, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If I have time this week, I'll try to have a look for any references from Classical antiquity (Gallic Wars, Pytheas etc). sjcollier 11:53, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I have removed the Ravenna Cosmography entry: not sure if you researched this yourself.  The text mentions a Purocoronauis which a few historians have tentatively equated to an otherwise unattested Durocornavium - fort of the Cornovii, who were from Cumbria/Shropshire.  There have been a couple of convoluted attempts (involving Cornovii conscripts) to equate Purocoronauis with Carn Brae, due to Purocoronauis being mentuioned as west of the Tamar in Ravenna, but you must remember that ths manuscript is notoriously vague/difficult to interpret/wrong.  Either way, not a reference to the Cornish.  Otherwise, keep up the good work. sjcollier 21:26, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  the Cornish in History 

message: I find that bit about the Cornish diaspora a bit POV. There is no Wikipedia:Verifiability on this issue as far as I can see. Where did its authors get informed from? GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 14:56, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think there can be much dispute over the Cornish Diaspora as a concept (though I have never seen the name used before); a quick Google on "Cornish Society" throws up various Cornish heritage groups in the USA, at least, whilst if you give me a day or two I should be able to come up with sufficient neutral historical references on the emmigration of Cornish miners.  However, one saying has it that if you look down a hole anywhere in the world, you will find a Cornishman at the bottom, despite being a genuine Cornish saying, does come across as rather PoV, and I think it could probably be taken out of the article with no real loss. sjcollier 16:01, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In an attempt to prevent this degenerating an edit war, I'll ask Bretagne 44 to explain here his removal of the disputed PoV tag.  Please note that I am not saying whether or not I agree with this, I just think that the decision to do so should be discussed. I will also ask GrandfatherJoe to clarify his statement that "this is a bit POV" and "lacks verifiability", especially as the basic point of the section (Cornish miners went abroad, some of their descendants still consider themselves to have a Cornish heritage) is not really open to dispute. As I pointed out earlier, feelings of Cornish heritage are, if anything, stronger in America than in Cornwall itself. 129.67.2.93 18:21, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Apologies, both that last comment and the edit assigned to that IP were mine, I forgot to sign in.  I think I have now expunged any trace of PoV from the Diaspora section, though unless someone can provide evidence for a "growing interest in the Cornish language" overseas that may have to go as well.  Aside from that, I don't think the basic facts stated here are questionable - a Google on "Cornish Diaspora" reveals that, yes, some do indeed call it that, and it seems as good a name as any. 129.67.2.93 18:34, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Somebody disabled cookies.  129.67.2.93 is me. sjcollier 18:37, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cornish diaspora? 

message: "A recent survey by Plymouth University found that, if given the opportunity, over a third of pupils in Cornwall schools would identity as Cornish"
Can we have a source for this? I'm still trying to get hold of the actual schools survey. Thanks. Secretlondon 16:59, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really a reliable source, though; this should probably go unless someone can produce the actual survey figures (Institute of Cornish Studies might have them).  Can 2003 be called recent? sjcollier 17:10, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Looks like its from a partisan press release - maybe Cornwall 2000? I think John Angarrack is their leader. Secretlondon 17:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I mean by "Not really reliable" - Dr Nigel Hicks was one of the English-Heritage-signs-theft gang.  Also, the Western Daily Express, that the article puports to come from, does not exist - though from the link they appear to mean the Western Daily Press, a Bristol newspaper. sjcollier 17:41, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Contact Ply Uni, they should be able to help.
Bretagne 44 16:31, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Schools Survey

message: Anyway here is another great link for the page.
*  Proud to be Cornish? What does being Cornish mean to you an esay published by Cornish World
Bretagne 44 17:38, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe a note should be appended to the article saying that it takes the Cornish point of view. I've seen people doing that on other articles. Rex(talk) 18:07, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Where has every body gone, mmmm strange

message: Hey all. The article uses Cornish as a noun, not just an adjective. Can this really be correct?  Are there any other nouns used to refer to a single member this group of people (regardless of whether this group, or part of it, constitutes an ethnic group or not). Cheers. //Big Adamsky 16:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Noun

message: * The 15th century Croyland Chronicle states "In order zealously to carry out the same, he sent the venerable men of God, brothers Egelmer and Nigel, his fellow-monks, with relics of the saints, into the western parts, namely, Flanders and France. To the northern parts and into Scotland he sent the brothers Fulk and Oger, and into Denmark and Norway the brothers Swetman and Wulsin the younger; while to Wales, Cornwall and Ireland he sent the brothers Augustin and Osbert".
Bretagne 44 18:53, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Croyland Chronicle

message: *Maps of Cornwall on the BBC
Bretagne 44 10:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maps at the BBC 

message: Are the Mercians an ethnic group? They have their own independence movement , flag, and even a historical language (the Mercian dialect of Anglo-Saxon, made famous by Tolkien in his depiction of Rohan). They have a strong regional identity and many other potential trappings of nationhood. Yet are they English? Of course they are! Just like the Cornish. TharkunColl 12:42, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Like the Mercian constitution, very much based on anarchist principles. Fab. Alun 17:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cornwall - English regional identities