Talk:A-flat clarinet

message: (Photo was requested) 
:Ta-da!  I will try also to put a size comparison including C, A, and Bass clarinets later.  (will add alto, basset horn, contrabasses, etc. if anyone cares to donate one to me).  --Myke Cuthbert 18:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice! -- Rsholmes 20:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Photo Request

message: There is still more info in the various clarinet books but esp. Basil Tschaikov's section of the Cambridge Companion to cite for this article.  Much to do.  But no longer a stub.  --Myke Cuthbert 17:25, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: More info

message: The Rough Guide to the Clarinet mentions that above E-flat there are piccolo clarinets in E and A-flat.  I've never heard of a high E-natural clarinet--I am assuming a typo for F or G, but figured I'd put it here and see if anyone knows anything about it. --Myke Cuthbert 06:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, now we have evidence (Rice) that such an instrument did exist.  (But the high B-natural clarinet has vanished from his lists) -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 00:47, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  E? 

message: is used in Prokofiev's 5th symphony? Aviad2001 22:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: None.  If any high clarinet is used, it's the E-flat or possibly D.  Don't know off the top of my head, but I do know that Prokofiev didn't use the A-flat or any other very high clarinet.  -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 03:53, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to this you're absolutely right. Interstingly, however, my full score of the symphony clearly refers to "clarinetto piccolo", but since the entire score is in C (including normally transposing instruments) it's impossible to tell. Aviad2001 09:49, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh...look at both articles. It's clearly talking about the Eb Clarinet. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which one of us are you talking to? I agreed with mike. I just mentioned what my score says, and that it's a "C-score", where all parts are transcribed so as to be in C. Aviad2001 19:51, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's one of my gripes with the naming of the article -- it really should be "A-flat and similarly high clarinets."  The term piccolo clarinet is not at all standard: Finale uses it to mean A clarinet but that's not a universal definition.  I'm sure some people, unaware of even higher instruments, would call an E-flat clarinet a piccolo clarinet.  After all, a "piccolo oboe" is only a third higher than a standard oboe. -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 20:16, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which piccolo clarinet  

message: I added back commented out keywords for the article.  They were removed by Melodia and Rsholmes with the comment "Google will pick up because of the redirects."  But Google hasn't.  A search on "Ab clarinet wikipedia" or "A-flat clarinet wikipedia" does not find this article.  Since there's no good reason to add "Ab" to the article, but it is an important search term, I've put the keywords back.
Also suggest that we remove the infobox.  It doesn't add any information that's not found in the article, and it adds gaps (esp. Playing Range) that look unprofessional.  For instance, what's a related instrument?  Is it something that is similarly unusual, like a sopranino sarrusophone? or something equally high like a piccolo flute?  "Soprano clarinet" seems an odd related instrument compared to just "clarinet", but that doesn't really fit because it's a related family of instruments.  Plus the infobox removed important pieces of information from the old caption--the maker of the instrument and its key--without adding anything worthwhile in return.  -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 20:29, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  keywords restored 

message: Are there any videos of this thing being played online? Badagnani (talk) 23:51, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Videos 

message: I noticed that if you search "Sopranino Clarinet" you are redirected to here. Shouldn't this redirect you to the E-flat Clarinet page? User:XEspmasterX 20:02, 6 November 2011
:Possibly.  Each of these terms is used interchangeably by different authors.  For instance, the E-flat clarinet is also called a Piccolo clarinet by some.  An A-flat clarinet is a sopranino to others.  I'd support moving the redirect for Sopranino to E-flat clarinet, or make a disambiguation page for it saying that it is a term that can either refer to an E-flat or D-clarinet or to the G, A-flat, and higher piccolo clarinets. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 23:08, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirections? 

message: A bass guitar? In the 1880s? Really? The Belgian Ocelot (talk) 17:54, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Acoustic bass guitars go back that far. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 22:44, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Bass guitar?

message: I've dropped some suggestions over on the WikiProject Musical Instruments discussion, but here's a couple of more useful sources to mine:
* 
* 
*  The delightful recording by Vienna Phil players of the 19th century Wiener Schrammelquartett music, as described in Tschaikov's high clarinets chapter in the Cambridge Companion (p. 53), which includes Richard Schönhofer playing the high G clarinet. 
— Jon (talk) 04:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok I've had a go at including info from various more recent refs, and dividing the article into history and construction sections, and improving refs etc. I think we're in good shape for a WP:GAN now :) — Jon (talk) 00:09, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  That said, there are a few things. It would be nice to have a sound recording of the A♭ clarinet, even if it's just a simple 3 octave E major scale from written E₃ to E₆ (middle C to silly-C). Also, I can't find any evidence that Buffet Crampon are still making the A♭ (e.g. current offerings). — Jon (talk) 04:48, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure that Buffet is still making them either. :-(  Vandoren is still apparently making the mouthpiece, which is a relief because I otherwise wouldn't know what I'd do if it chipped.  -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 01:07, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I've always wondered if 3D printing could save the day there, when it gets good and fine enough; same with recreating museum mouthpieces for things like the serpent. Also, I have trouble with this assertion:  — given the A♭ is essentially an Italian instrument, and has been called (in Italian) a clarinetto/clarino piccolo since its introduction in the early 19th century (along with other small clarinets), e.g. Bellini (1844), Verdi scores, Orsi and other maker catalogues, other writers ( c.f. Rice 2017); Rice also discusses the (lack of consistent) small clarinet nomenclature, and lack of reliable sources of information in general (p. 135); Ripamonti call their A♭ a clarinetto piccolo since at least 1980; Shackleton's Grove entry (8th ed. published 2001 but substantially written in earlier editions) calls them piccolo clarinets, as does Lawson (p. 33) and Tchaikov (p. 54) in the 1995 Cambridge Companion; American composer William Neil's 1987 "Concerto for Piccolo Clarinet" (for E♭; catalog; YouTube; Tchaikov in Cambridge Companion p. 51, note 5);  This all pre-dates widespread use of notation software. Quite separately, I suspect that if manufacturers, musicologists and composers have all been calling them piccolo clarinets for over 20 years, and nearly 200 years in Italian, then we can say that they are nowadays (at least "often") known as piccolo clarinets. I don't think notation software comes into it, really. — Jon (talk) 04:47, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

text: The first sentence () could be technically correct, but it sounds potentially very misleading (as if it is saying it is the most common type of clarinet) especially if you gloss over a key word or have low familiarity with the rest of the clarinet family. Perhaps the lede can be rewritten to prevent this type of misreading. Hftf (talk) 06:03, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

text: Not sure if it belongs here, or another article, but the "hot fountain pen" as used/invented by Adrian Rollini might qualify as a small clarinet, mentioned in Baines 1977 and in the Oxford Bate Collection; also in a recently published Rollini biography. He used them in recordings c. 1925-30, built 21-26 cm in length, in E♭ or C. — Jon (talk) 06:36, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improve to B or A class 

message: I think there can be more said about the A♭ in Italy, which is where it principally survived the tumultuous early 20th century, particularly in military bands. It has also been used by many Italian composers (perhaps less well-known outside Italy) in both band and classical music. Italian writers and musicians such as Adriano Amore and Giovanni di Lorenzo (not the football player) have interesting material we can source. — Jon (talk) 23:55, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed -- that would be great to add.  There wasn't much in the past and glad to see more information going forward.  (Btw -- I've restored the bit about the modern usage of the term in software which I've had to deal with a lot in maintaining the article over the past 10 years.  If you want, I'll find a citation though finding a negative citation can be difficult.  I'd like to think that as a professional musicologist and the person who owns an A-flat clarinet who contributed all the images for the article, you might give a little leeway.  Thanks!).  -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 09:40, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @Mscuthbert it's not just that it's uncited, it's that it's also not true, as I tried to explain above. The term piccolo clarinet was in common use, by musicologists, Italians, composers and players, long before notation software. I'm trying to get these articles to at least GA, so we need citations for everything. — Jon (talk) 12:31, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I’d love to see a citation that piccolo clarinet refers to the Ab etc clarinets and not the Eb and D. I’ve looked for years and never found one. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 08:17, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: If you need a citation for everything I suggest removing all the images from the article. I just took them and claimed that they’re my Ab clarinet and it’s reeds. They could be G clarinets or I could have photoshopped them. No one has published a RS saying that I own an Ab clarinet and took a photo of it. :-) -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 08:26, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

text: I provided several direct citations above, but to repeat: Italian opera scores, military band music, and manufacturers have all referred to them as clarino/clarinetto piccolo since the early 19th century; (Google Books) Quote: "Piccolo Clarino in La Bemolle the very Ripamonti clarinet you (claim to!) own is called a clarinetto piccolo in La♭ on their website; Shackleton and Porter both called them piccolo clarinets in Grove; Shackleton lists "piccolo or octave clarinets" in C, B♭, A, and A♭; but later refers to octave clarinets only in C, B♭ and A Quote: "The piccolo or octave clarinet (usually pitched in A♭, a 7th above the soprano) is chiefly a military instrument" Colin Lawson calls them piccolo clarinets on page 33 of the 1995 Cambridge Companion. Quote: "The tiniest is the scarcely known clarinet in high C, more than an octave higher than the normal clarinet; in increasing order of size there are then piccolo, sopranino, soprano, alto and bass clarinets ranging down to the B♭ contrabass" Saying nobody called them piccolo clarinets before 2000 is therefore incorrect, and without a citation, saying that only notation software vendors started calling them piccolo clarinets is WP:OR. Perhaps we could instead focus on what we can say. If we want to say that notation software calls the A♭ clarinet a piccolo clarinet, then we'd need to cite a manual or other printed source (I can't find anything in the online Finale manual, it offers "Clarinet in B♭", "Clarinet in A" and "Clarinet in E♭" in the instrument list; MuseScore 4 offers a "piccolo clarinet" which is in A♭; not sure what Sibelius and Dorico do). As for images, I'm glad you've contributed them, otherwise we'd have to rely on some 19 century clarinets with weird fingering systems in the Edinburgh University collections (which are all called "piccolo clarinet" by the way); also, we don't need to WP:SKYBLUE. — Jon (talk) 15:30, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

text:   Honestly, I was about to  nominate this article for a Good Article review, so we could use it as a test run for restoring the other clarinet articles that used to be GA, but this one remaining thing would not pass a review because there's no sources. I'd like to know what you think?—Jon (talk) 04:24, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Military bands and composers in Italy