Talk:Liger/Archive 1

message: :I believe so, I have read about ligers elsewhere...
sure why not? house cats cross breed all the time.
Ligers were mentioned offhand on NPR's Day to Day today. The story was on footprints found of a large wild cat; the reporter mentions that people thought it could be a lion, a tiger, or a liger. BenFrantzDale 03:45, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, although many people think that the liger is an invention of Napoleon Dynamite (and the creators may or may not have been aware of the existence of the animal when they wrote the movie), they are real.  Here's a National Geographic article that mentions one, and includes a picture.  --LostLeviathan 11:24, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Is this for real?

message: while watching the National Geographic Channel, the man in the photo with Hercules was explaining some things about Sindbad, amazingly Sindbad was said to be at the same weight the article is currently describing as Hercules 
can Sindbad and Hercules be one? renamed, have multiple names, or even that the picture is for Sindbad not Hercules.
One last pharaoh (talk) 15:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hercules or Sindbad? 

message: I did some reading about lion X tiger crosses.  My reading was that they were all sterile, just like mules.  This is one of the reasons that the crosses are done by amateurs, and in safari parks, not in zoos, which are supposed to be run scientifically.  Tigers are endangered.  The sterility of the offspring means that the genetic potential of the tiger is being wasted.
I also read the crosses were dangerous, because tigers were instinctively solitary, and lions were instinctively social.  The crosses were drawn both ways. -- Geo Swan 01:15, 2005 Mar 2 (UTC)
The article is actually rather vague about the topic of sterility in ligers.  The article states, "The hormonal hypothesis is that the cause of the male liger's growth is its sterility — essentially, the male liger remains in the pre-pubertal growth phase. This is not upheld by behavioural evidence - despite being sterile, many male ligers become sexually mature and mate with females. Male ligers also have the same levels of testosterone ng/dl on average as an adult male lion. In addition, female ligers also attain great size, weighing approximately 700 lb (320 kg) and reaching 10 feet (3.05 m) long on average, but are often fertile" at the end of the section describing the large size, but in the following section, the article says, "Ligers are not sterile, and they can reproduce. If a liger were to reproduce with a tiger, it would be called a ti-liger, and if it were to reproduce with a lion, it would be call a li-liger. The fertility of hybrid big cat females is well-documented across a number of different hybrids. This is in accordance with Haldane's rule: in hybrids of animals whose gender is determined by sex chromosomes, if one gender is absent, rare or sterile, it is the heterogametic sex (the one with two different sex chromosomes e.g. X and Y)".  It seems to be saying that only the females are fertile while the males are sterile, yet this could be clearer.  I'll change the beginning of the fertility section to specify females only, and if it is incorrect, the article can be changed back, taking into account the numerous instances which state the males are sterile.--Tiberius47 12:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sterility? 

message: If a Liger can be bred with either a tiger or lion (Assuming it's fertile), and Tigons can also be bred with tigers or lions, can a Liger be bred with a Tigon? What would you call the babies? Litigoners?
:No, that wouldn't work. Female ligers and tigons are sometimes fertile, but males aren't. So only one half of the pair would be fertile. Kairos 05:52, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crossbreeding with tigons? 

message: What is the reason why the section on "Ligers in popular culture" was removed? There doesn't seem to be any explanation here in the discussion, and I think that it is worth noting. --InformationalAnarchist 7 July 2005 19:27 (UTC)
Also, What is the reason the entry on slang in computer games (most specifically Myth) within this section was removed?  "*Slang in Myth (computer game) for an awful but boastful player. Often a derogatory term used to set apart those lacking social graces. Similar to n00b."  Seems to be both relative to "Pop Culture" (as its related to Bungie) and relative to "Pop Culture References"?
*If you've got a reference, go ahead and add it back in. I've never heard this term used this way before, but I've never played Myth. AиDя01DTALKEMAIL 01:02, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
I dont really think that this 'Myth' computer game ref. deserves to be in an encyclopedia. Looking at the history it appears to have originated as some kind of dig at someone inparticular.
"The original PlayMyth.net Liger (who was previously a 'raider' on Bungie.net) has since been permanantly banned, but he still insists he is part of the community." - this is not relevant, some anecdote about an antisocial gamer is not worthy material
*I didn't remove it, but as I said before, If you've got a reference, go ahead and add it back in. This statement has not been verified, so it should probably not remain in the article. android79 17:40, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popular culture 

message: it would be nice to include a picture - Stoph 22:15, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: Should there be a note on pronounciation?  Just reading the article and not having it heard outloud I am confused whether the 'g' would be hard as in tiger, or soft. --Sajendra 05:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's just like smushing lion and tiger together, so the g would be hard like in tiger.  — Laura Scudder ☎ 07:42, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronounciation 

message: Wikipedia's Tigon and Liger articles contain info on Lady Kali, a ti-liger.  However, the articles both initially merely repeated the claims made by her owners that she was part of a "research programme" and "behavioural" study. Note the British spellings to describe what is actually a roadside zoo with two felines, run by two guys in North Carolina.  There is no breeding program, no genetic research program, and no behavioral study, and no scientific report (or any report at all that I could find, not even anecdotes on their website) of results of any such programs or studies.  
What there IS, and I've provided a link to a copy of it, is a 2004 report from the local paper stating that the animals are "sisters" (highly unlikely in the genetic sense, since even their owners admit they are eight years apart in age), and that both have been on exhibit for "at least five years" (taking Lady Kali's birth back to at least 1999) while their owners have been evicted from one roadside location after another.  From the news report, these two felines are apparently the only two animals these men display, though there is a photo of a very young chimp and of a capuchin monkey on their website (who may be private pets or visitors).  Again, no evidence whatsoever of a breeding, behavioral, or genetic research program.  
As to their age, their website refers to the two animals as "two" and "ten," but is undated, so no accurate birthyear can be estimated from that.  The website also contains copies of USDA licenses, with the latest expiring in late 2006.  The licenses confirm the names of the men involved (also referenced in the news item) and provides a Fayetteville, NC address on the most recent license, so it's safe to say that the animals are still in NC in 2006.  
Though the reliable information is scanty, I think SOME reference to Lady Kali is worth leaving in the Tigon and Liger articles. I corrected the info and provided links to the Lady Kali webpage and the definition of USDA Class C Exhibitor, and patched minor typo's elsewhere in the text.  I also provided a live link to the text of the 1994 News-Observer news item about the evictions.  The newspaper's own link has gone dead, but can be viewed by reading Google's cached copy.  It is identical to the live copy still published via the Captive Wild Animal Protection Coalition on the link I provided.
-- Lisasmall 21:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes regarding Lady Kali, the ti-liger 

message: I saw somewhere that some zoos have ligers at the moment. Is this true, and, if so, does anyone know which ones? JellyFish72 22:00, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zoos? 

message: In the section "Explanations from a science pie!" it said that when the chicken egg is fertilised the father's mitochondria is destroyed which is why mitochondrial DNA comes only from the mother. This is said to happen with all animals, not just the ligers. I find that correct as recent research suggests that during fertilization the mitochondria of both parents fuses. So technically speaking even in mitochondria DNA comes from both parents, so there are no genes that can only be passed on from the mother. By the way, I am useless when it comes to looking for references so please do ask me for them.
:: Only partially correct. Recent research has shown that, _very_rarely_, mitochondria can be inherited from the father. The rest of the time, it's only inherited from the mother. This only applies to animals, there are some plant species where the situation is reserved. Chaotic apple 02:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mitochondria 

message: What about a negative view on these hybrids. The lion and especially the tiger are endangered species. By creating useless infertile hybrids of these animals you are not helping the conservation of either of the species. Breeding tigers (and than also not mixing the subspecies) to increase their numbers seem to me a better thing to do. Maybe worth mentioning or to think about. Peter Maas 11:24, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally I have a neutral opinion about these hybrids. I like them, but as you said, their parents are more usefull perpetuating their own species. In the interest of NPOV I am going to add a criticism section to the article (especially since I have heard such criticism in countless places). Since I am not very good at this it may require a cleanup, and since it is likely to be short, it may need to be stub-marked. - 23:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The dead is done. Check the article for errors and fix them & add to the article as you see fit. - 23:20, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for adding it. Peter Maas 15:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Isn't this original research?  Inforazer 16:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It might be.  The blue whale words, "is often criticized," are suspicious.  Who criticizes?  Who are these people making these criticisms?  where have they made these criticisms?  Can Peter Maas or the anonymous user provide a verifiable source, and thus comply with our policy? Slrubenstein   |  Talk 17:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, first I'm one. But that is indeed just one opinion. Personally I know many more, because I happened to study Wildlife Management. But that is not something that can be verified for Wikipedia of course. The wording in the text may be not that good (I have'n't written that by the way). So I will look for some written sources, not sure if I can find them so quick.....found one for emotional and behavioural problems: . Will look further. Peter Maas 17:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

text: "Well, first I'm one. But that is indeed just one opinion. Personally I know many more, because I happened to study Wildlife Management" is not only not a verifiable source, for Wikipedia, it is practically an admission to Original research.  Are you aware of our policy (WP:NOR)?  The issue is not whether the wording of the text is "good" or not, the question is whether the text violates our policy.  from what you wrote, it does.  But if it does not, if you can comply with NOR and our other policies (Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Cite sources, Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View), by all means do so. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 17:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know! And I too said that my own opinion is a good source! Currently is does indeed violate our policy. I agree with you on that. Still looking for sources, can change text before I have found some. Still looking, but found already some: ,  and ....still searching (preferably a scientific one of course). Peter Maas 17:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Changed text and added verifiable sources. For the permission for the use of content from Messybeast.com, please see User talk:Messybeast. Peter Maas 18:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about positive view on these hybrids 

message: I added the Black Liger info. to the Liger Talk page. I think that many people would be interested in reading the info. Should I add the info. or a link to the Black Liger section of the Talk page to the article? If you are reading this, please write your opinion. - 20:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opinions Needed: Adding the Black Liger info. to the article 

message: A spot check on the Ligers in popular culture section showed few references in the corresponding articles to this one, and no sources for ANY of the information. I removed the section once, it was restored in its original fashion, so I have cut it again, but I am making a note here so that the article's editors can discuss it further if you like. I think a popular culture/trivia section does not add anything to the understanding of this article (or tigon, where I removed a one-liner), but if the consensus is otherwise, I won't block an appropriate readdition. -- nae'blis 16:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a "Ligers in popular culture" section is necessary, mainly as many people will come to this article through popular culture, and that should be acknowledged and wikilinked.  As an example, which I'm sure was mentioned earlier, Ligers are featured in the film Napoleon Dynamite.  A section like this helps to broaden the exposure and interest in the subject matter. MightyAtom 04:39, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This seems to be a case where a popular culture section is necessary, because (I would guess) most Americans who have heard of ligers have heard of them only via the movie Napoleon Dynamite. Ignoring that seems perverse. I added a short section. Llajwa 00:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  popular culture 

message: WHY DOES THIS ARTICLE NOT SUFFER FROM SO MUCH VANDALISM?!!! - 21:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have requested semi-protection for this page. Dlodge 20:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: From the blog of  “Julia M” on Yahoo 360: 
* "FANTASTIC PHOTOS OF LIGERS" from the blog of “Julia M” on Yahoo 360 - "Meet the ligers"
Atulsnischal 23:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Meet the ligers (with photos)

message: is this edit correct, or is it sneaky vandalism?  Which is the correct terminology: lili, or li-ligers?  Or should both be added?  Thanks, delldot | talk 19:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Which terminology

message: My biggest problem with this article has been the lack of scientific backing. I spent the time to research hybrid animals, and the resulting research from showed that the way Ligers and Tigons have been listed in the reverse to what the scientific articles indicate. So where is the information coming from? Cite sources! I'm not saying my research was right, I'm saying it's scientific secondary source and I wrote down where I got the information. A work of fiction like Napolean Dynamite is not a reliable source. Also remember that you cannot change cited text without changing our removing the citation source because you are then not citing correctly, and it's misrepresentative. --Waterspyder 15:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please check my comments to About scientific names of hybrids, and, although somewhat less relevant Scientific Classification here on the talk page. 212.10.67.254 (talk) 14:51, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Scientific Citation

message: The article in it's current version reads:
The liger, is a hybrid cross between a female panthera leo (lion), and a male panthera tigris (Tiger) and is denoted scientifically as panthera leo x panthera tigris
I think this is wrong because I read somewhere else (britannica, wordnet) that ligers come from a male lion and a female tiger. So, what gives? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 90.153.128.11 (talk) 23:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  insidious vandalism in the article? 

message: I did not know something like Ligers and Tigons even existed. At first I thought the article was complete hoax. Now I know better. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sisodia (talk • contribs) 06:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wow!! This is totally fascinating. 

message: I don't know, but that photo looks awfully fake. --Colinstu 05:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't worry, even if the photo is fake, Ligers are perfectly true. I saw one live. :-O · AO Talk 11:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo shopping 

message: First I cleaned up a reference to a supposed Eddie Murphy 1998 stand-up tour mentioning ligers, then added a "citation needed":
:*The liger was ridiculed by American comedian/actor Eddie Murphy in his 1998 stand-up tour.
Now I'm just taking it out. I find no evidence to support such a tour, on his Wikipedia page or Internet search. --WWB 02:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing Eddie Murphy reference 

message: I wrote the Black Liger section a long time ago, believing it to be legitimate information; however, a quick look at Wikipedia:No original research has led me to believe that it constitutes original research. I would like to request a review by someone experienced in identifying original research, to ascertain the information's current status. - 22:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black Liger: Original Research? 

message: I think this hibrid Liger/Tion stuff is unntural, crule and inviably steril to! God dose not like us playing with his creations!--Nadezda-Tatiania 14:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Animal crualty

message: The metric to imperial conversion for the Bloemfontein Liger is innacurate.  Assuming the imperial measure is correct, the value should be 798kg, not 1008kg.  Edits I earlier made were automatically reverted, so, I'm leaving this on the discussion page.  Also: any other non-wikipedia reference I can find on the net shows the Bloemfontein 1973 Guinness world record entry at 750lbs, not 1756lbs as listed in this article.  Perhaps someone with access to a 1973 Guinness book of world records could validate/correct this.(Majikaltrev 12:43, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Longevity section issues

message: Recent edits removed the following:
 ..., which is a different species to the tiger, Panthera tigris. Another area where the ranges
 of Asiatic Lions and Bengal Tigers overlap is in the Gir Forest in India;...
with a follow on statement to the effect that lions and tigers natural ranges do not overlap.  This is a significant change to the article and should likely be cited. --Majikaltrev 12:58, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there is no need for citation, but I can add one. It´s clear that Indian lion occurs at present only at and arround Gir National Park and there are no tigers today! (The tigers westernmost population is today in Ranthambore National Park.) --Altaileopard 14:55, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see that you feel you're an expert on this topic; my question is: is that enough to support statements like "It's clear that Indian lion occurs only at and around Gir National Park and there are no tigers today!"? As I am not an expert, I can't decide if your assertion is valid (which is why I was hoping for a citation :)). Any thoughts? --Majikaltrev 03:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The statement should be sourced, yes, Majikaltrev.  KP Botany 03:59, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, sorry. I agree! References are all that counts, but I have not enough time in these days. Probably I can add some references later.--Altaileopard 16:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lion and tiger range overlap?

message: ::Jungle Island in Miami is home to a liger named Hercules, the largest non-obese liger, said to weigh over 900 lbs, [9]
The reference is offline, can be found at web.archive.org, but nowhere it states that the liger individual is not obese. I think it's very debatable.--Extremophile 17:14, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obesity 

message: Is it a real thing or is it a fictional thing, If it's true, This could be our first living Impossible creature. Bingodile 14:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: True or false

message: What about Zoids? It has Ligers in it,right?(Anon.)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.76.251.119 (talk) 10:56, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ligers in Popular culture additions

message: How does it is regarding the parent's sexes? If this article uses it correctly, the female species come first; then the tigon would be P. leo x P. tigris. But does this distinction really exists? Or both the tigon and the liger are interchangeably P. leo x P. tigris and P. tigris x P. leo? And any sort of hybrid would "automatically" have its hybrid scientific name from this simple rule, or does it have to be "official", the species has to be scientifically "baptized" in some publication? --Extremophile (talk) 16:27, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: While sometimes claimed, there are no fixed rules on the scientific name of the male parent species of a hybrid being listed first - or vice versa (cf. ICZN). 212.10.67.254 (talk) 14:26, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  About scientific names of hybrids