Talk:Yasser Arafat/Archive 5

message: This is better than the current wording:
:Others, among them Palestinian leaders, criticized him for corruption and for negotiating an agreement with Israel in the Oslo Accords that did not include the Palestinian refugees right to return.
which is:
:Others, among them Palestinian leaders, criticized him for corruption, and hard-line Palestinian opponents denounced Arafat for engaging in negotiations with Israel to settle the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Because Edward Said agrees with me . Palestine-info 22:27, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That link doesn't refer to the "Right of return", as far as I can tell. Can you point out the passage? Jayjg  | (Talk) 22:34, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: The vision here is not a manufactured provisional state on 40 per cent of the land, with the refugees abandoned and Jerusalem kept by Israel, but a sovereign territory liberated from military occupation by mass action involving Arabs and Jews wherever possible.
Palestine-info 10:26, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: The wording is certainly ambiguous, it doesn't even mention a "Right of Return" (perhaps he is talking about compensation), and talks about other issues as well.  In any event, are you saying that Said is a Palestinian leader, or a hard-liner? Jayjg  | (Talk) 15:52, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Others, among them Palestinian leaders, criticized him for corruption and for signing the Oslo Accords with Israel which they felt amounted to abandoning basic rights of the Palestinian people.
Palestine-info 18:44, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The current version, worked out in consensus with several editors, seems more NPOV, informative, and accurate.  Other editors agree.  What specific objections do you have to it? Jayjg  | (Talk) 19:10, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Are you looking at the article itself?  It says none of those things.  This is the second time in less than a day that you've "quoted" things you object to that aren't actually in the article. Jayjg  | (Talk) 19:31, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Well, I guess, after being proved wrong again, you gave up talking.  It's amazing how your "better language" actually turned the sentence into something nonsensical and ungrammatical.  Perhaps you should let people with a better knowledge of English make the "better language" changes in the future. Jayjg  | (Talk) 22:06, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Watch it with the personal attacks. Let's try to keep the discourse civilized if possible. Kaldari 05:34, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: That was Palestine-info's claim, I was trying to accomodate him by leaving it in. Jayjg  | (Talk) 07:33, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's sweet of you, Jayjg. Kaldari 17:44, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  I'm very sweet, but rarely appreciated for it.  Isn't that sad? Jayjg  | (Talk) 17:55, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: That said, here are some possible links: , , , , , , , , Jayjg  | (Talk) 07:47, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, those are some good sources. Kaldari 17:44, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Moderate criticism of Arafat 

message: I'm wondering if it's really necessary to have both transliterated versions of his name in the intro.  Do you think it might be cleaner to stick with whichever one is more standard?  And if so, which one is the more standard transliteration?  I think I'll go ask User:Mustafaa to comment on this. --MPerel( talk | contrib) 22:19, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)
The first transliteration is the usually accepted standard. However, Arabic has no official general standard for transliterations. Therefore, if Yasser Arafat preferred the latter transliteration it should be used. Note that the names are not identical. The first version looks like a genuine name, the second looks a little odd. Apart from the addition of Arafat, I'm not sure about Abdel-Rawf. I think the first version reads far better, and I would use that unless there is some good evidence to support the other version. Gareth Hughes 23:59, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As I point out in the next section, UPI used "Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa al-Husseini", which is closer to the second version. Jayjg (talk) 00:08, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The transliteration got to me: Abd ar-Rawf makes complete sense. It seems to be an abbreviation of Abd ar-Rahman Abd ar-Rawf. He may have been given the long name at birth, or lengthened it during his lifetime: the former is more likely. It may be good to say something about his kunya Abu Ammar, the role of kunya names in the PLO and the meaning of Yasser Arafat. Gareth Hughes 00:22, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Thank you, Mustafaa (and Gareth too) for your response. I notice the Arabic names from the obit and Google differ slightly, but both apparently transliterate the same, is this correct?  Another question I have for you is which Arabic version of the name do you think should be in the article, the existing version, the obit version, or the google version? --MPerel( talk | contrib) 02:28, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)
Mustafaa's transliteration is far better. I found the original ones unhelpful. Actually, Abd ar-Rahman may be a mistake for Abd ar-Rauf that found itself merged into a new version of the name. It may be best to give the birth name, and then to add information about Abu Ammar and Yasser Arafat, which are not part of his birth name. I would suggest that the article says that محمد عبد الرؤوف القدوة الحسيني (Muhammad `Abd ar-Ra'uf al-Qudwa al-Husayni) is his birth name, know also as ياسر عرفات (Yasir `Arafat) or اتو عمّار (Abu `Ammar). Gareth Hughes 13:48, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Done. Jayjg (talk) 17:11, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: I wrote اتو when I meant ابو: I'll correct the article. Gareth Hughes 18:30, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muhammad Abd al-Rahman ar-Rauf al-Qudwah al-Husayni or Mohammed Abdel-Rawf Arafat al-Qudwa al-Hussaini 

message: Mperel stated about 10 weeks ago that he thought Arafat was the 6th of seven children.  This  article from UPI seems to confirm that: "Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa al-Husseini was born in August, 1929 -- Aug. 24 is the generally accepted date but some sources give it as Aug. 4 -- in Cairo, Egypt. Called Yasser from an early age, he was the sixth of seven children of Abd al-Raouf al-Qudwa al-Husseini, a wholesale merchant who ran businesses in Jerusalem and Cairo, and his first wife, Zahwa Abu Saud, a member of one of Jerusalem's most prominent Arab families."  I first brought this up about 2 months ago, but at the time we were under a seige conditions, and I guess no-one noticed. Also, it gives a third transliteration for his name.  Jayjg (talk) 22:28, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've put both numbers in there, with a note that sources differ on this. Jayjg (talk) 17:13, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  5th or 6th of 7 children? 

message: I've prepared a replacement paragraph for the intro paragraph of the Aftermath section here, User:Palestine-info/Arafat. Because there were much more to the controversy than the current text says. Palestine-info 00:03, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You're joking, right? Jayjg (talk) 00:05, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: I would really prefer that we reduce the Aftermath section rather than expend it. The section is too detailed for an encyclopedia article as it is. So is the section on Arafat's death, which was dumped from it's own article. We really need to work on pruning this article rather than adding to it. It's already well over the suggested maximum size for a Wikipedia article. Kaldari 01:11, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely agree; there is far too much detail already in this section.  It is perhaps the largest section in the article, yet it deals with approximately two weeks of his life, and a week afterwards.  Surely this is disproportionate attention to a tiny fraction of the man's life, particularly as he even wasn't conscious for almost all of it - it's mostly about other players, not about him. Jayjg (talk) 02:30, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arafat's burial 

message: We now have three different birthdays listed for Yasser Arafat - August 4 (Arafat's claimed birthday), August 24 (listed on birth certificate), and August 27. The August 27th date was added by an anonymous contributor who did not elicidate on their justification for adding it. A Google search turns up several sites listing August 27 as Arafat's birthday, although strangely they seem to all be astrology sites. Unless someone can come up with a credible (and more primary) source for this date, I am inclined to delete it. Kaldari 18:45, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought they were all astrology sites as well, or Wikipedia mirrors, but eventually I found one that was not:  That said, I agree with you, and am inclined to delete it. Jayjg (talk) 21:13, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that site lists its source as Wikipedia, so it's not much help. I'll go ahead and delete the 27th then. Kaldari 00:18, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Arafat's birthday

message: Shouldn't this be separated out into references and further reading by convention? Johnleemk | Talk 13:59, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bibliography 

message: I'm afraid your edits did not conform to either the No original research or the NPOV guidelines. Using words such as "duplicitous" or "Politruks" are very POV. Remember this is an encyclopedia. I understand you are new here, so welcome to Wikipedia. However, please be sure to understand the policies here (like I had to when I joined as well, it took me a while). Make sure you do not cut and paste information from copyrighted pages. If you'd like, you can discuss here what concerns you have and editors will be glad to help you. Again, welcome. Ramallite (talk) 13:41, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The inserted material is anyway a copyvio of this article by an IDF intelligence officer.  --Zero 13:54, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: edited and added "Arafat-Palestinian Authority Involvement in Al-Aqsa Intifada" [http://menewsie.3.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=618 article]