Talk:Succession to the Swedish throne

message: Had Bernadotte died after his adoption but before his succession, would Oskar be king or did he only become a dynast when his father became king?  I'm wondering whether the list ought to be dated to the adoption rather than the succession. —Tamfang (talk) 16:20, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Very good question! The answer to it is yes. The dynasty was created on September 26 1810 when the Swedish government passed legislation designating Carl John's male heirs as heirs to the Swedish throne and Oscar became Duke of Sudermania. SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:41, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I love it when I can shake the existing order by asking a question. — What happened between 21 August and 26 September 1810? —Tamfang (talk) 21:06, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not 100% certain, but it looks to me like Oscar's father was elected heir first and that it then took a little over a month before they were willing or able to confirm his son and make the monarchy hereditary in his family. SergeWoodzing (talk) 01:14, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  beginning of the dynasty 

message: Before 28 May 2008, there was a list for each time someone was born, disqualified or died.  I collapsed them all into this (since deleted), which I repeat here in case anyone's interested and to explain what the above discussion is about. —Tamfang (talk) 19:46, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: that list

message: If you don't like the indentations ...
Name                                                      	Date added       	Date removed     	Father                      	Reason for removal
Prince Oscar, Duke of Södermanland                        	26 September 1810	8 March 1844     	Charles XIV John            	succession as Oscar I
Prince Charles, Duke of Skåne                             	3 May 1826       	8 July 1859      	Oscar I                     	succession as Charles XV
Prince Carl Oscar, Duke of Södermanland                   	14 December 1852 	13 March 1854    	Charles XV                  	death
Prince Gustaf, Duke of Uppland                            	18 June 1827     	24 September 1852	Oscar I                     	death
Prince Oscar, Duke of Östergötland                        	21 January 1829  	18 September 1872	Oscar I                     	succession as Oscar II
Prince Gustaf, Duke of Värmland                           	16 June 1858     	8 December 1907  	Oscar II                    	succession as Gustaf V
Prince Gustaf Adolf, Duke of Skåne                        	11 November 1882 	29 October 1950  	Gustaf V                    	succession as Gustaf VI Adolf
Prince Gustaf Adolf, Duke of Västerbotten                 	22 April 1906    	26 January 1947  	Gustaf VI                   	death
Prince Carl Gustaf, Duke of Jämtland                      	30 April 1946    	15 September 1973	Gustaf Adolf of Västerbotten	succession as Carl XVI Gustaf
Crown Princess Victoria, Duchess of Västergötland         	1 January 1980*  	                 	Carl XVI                    	
Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland                      	13 May 1979*     	                 	Carl XVI                    	
Princess Madeleine, Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland	10 June 1982     	                 	Carl XVI                    	
Prince Sigvard, Duke of Uppland                           	7 June 1907      	8 March 1934     	Gustaf VI                   	disqualifying marriage
Prince Bertil, Duke of Halland                            	28 February 1912 	5 January 1997   	Gustaf VI                   	death
Prince Carl Johan, Duke of Dalarna                        	31 October 1916  	22 January 1946  	Gustaf VI                   	disqualifying marriage
Prince Vilhelm, Duke of Södermanland                      	17 June 1884     	5 June 1965      	Gustaf VI                   	death
Prince Lennart, Duke of Småland                           	8 May 1909       	11 March 1932    	Vilhelm of Södermanland     	disqualifying marriage
Prince Erik, Duke of Västmanland                          	20 April 1889    	20 September 1918	Gustaf V                    	death
Prince Oscar, Duke of Gotland                             	15 November 1859 	15 March 1888    	Oscar II                    	disqualifying marriage
Prince Carl, Duke of Västergötland                        	27 February 1861 	24 October 1951  	Oscar II                    	death
Prince Carl, Duke of Östergötland                         	10 January 1911  	6 July 1937      	Carl of Västergötland       	disqualifying marriage
Prince Eugén, Duke of Närke                               	1 August 1865    	17 August 1947   	Oscar II                    	death
Prince August, Duke of Dalarna                            	24 August 1831   	4 March 1873     	Oscar I                     	death
The table ought not to be sortable, as the order needs to be preserved. (Dates do NOT tell the whole story!) —Tamfang (talk) 18:56, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a massive improvement, IMO. --OpenFuture (talk) 19:27, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the indentations, but I am used to such in genealogical lists, so I may be prejudiced. But with the indentations the generations are clear, as they are not at all when everyone is all boxed in. I'm going to take a stab at something simpler, maintaining the indentations. SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:40, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: how about this then?

message: Name                                                      	Father                      	Birth                                        	Removal                                         	Death
Jean Baptiste Jules Bernadotte                            	Jean Henri Bernadotte       	26 January 1763                              	5 February 1818: succession as Charles XIV John 	8 March 1844
Prince Oscar, Duke of Södermanland                        	Charles XIV                 	26 September 1810                            	8 March 1844: succession as Oscar I             	8 July 1859
Prince Charles, Duke of Skåne                             	Oscar I                     	3 May 1826                                   	8 July 1859: succession as Charles XV           	18 September 1872
Prince Carl Oscar, Duke of Södermanland                   	Charles XV                  	14 December 1852                             	                                                	13 March 1854
Prince Gustaf, Duke of Uppland                            	Oscar I                     	18 June 1827                                 	                                                	24 September 1852
Prince Oscar, Duke of Östergötland                        	Oscar I                     	21 January 1829                              	18 September 1872: succession as Oscar II       	8 December 1907
Prince Gustaf, Duke of Värmland                           	Oscar II                    	16 June 1858                                 	8 December 1907: succession as Gustaf V         	29 October 1950
Prince Gustaf Adolf, Duke of Skåne                        	Gustaf V                    	11 November 1882                             	29 October 1950: succession as Gustaf VI Adolf  	15 September 1973
Prince Gustaf Adolf, Duke of Västerbotten                 	Gustaf VI                   	22 April 1906                                	                                                	26 January 1947
Prince Carl Gustaf, Duke of Jämtland                      	Gustaf Adolf of Västerbotten	30 April 1946                                	15 September 1973: succession as Carl XVI Gustaf	
Crown Princess Victoria, Duchess of Västergötland         	Carl XVI                    	14 July 1977 (became eligible 1 January 1980)	                                                	
Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland                      	Carl XVI                    	13 May 1979                                  	                                                	
Princess Madeleine, Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland	Carl XVI                    	10 June 1982                                 	                                                	
Prince Sigvard, Duke of Uppland                           	Gustaf VI                   	7 June 1907                                  	8 March 1934: disqualifying marriage            	4 February 2002
Prince Bertil, Duke of Halland                            	Gustaf VI                   	28 February 1912                             	                                                	5 January 1997
Prince Carl Johan, Duke of Dalarna                        	Gustaf VI                   	31 October 1916                              	22 January 1946: disqualifying marriage         	
Prince Vilhelm, Duke of Södermanland                      	Gustaf VI                   	17 June 1884                                 	                                                	5 June 1965
Prince Lennart, Duke of Småland                           	Vilhelm of Södermanland     	8 May 1909                                   	11 March 1932: disqualifying marriage           	21 December 2004
Prince Erik, Duke of Västmanland                          	Gustaf V                    	20 April 1889                                	                                                	20 September 1918
Prince Oscar, Duke of Gotland                             	Oscar II                    	15 November 1859                             	15 March 1888: disqualifying marriage           	4 October 1953
Prince Carl, Duke of Västergötland                        	Oscar II                    	27 February 1861                             	                                                	24 October 1951
Prince Carl, Duke of Östergötland                         	Carl of Västergötland       	10 January 1911                              	6 July 1937: disqualifying marriage             	23 July 2003
Prince Eugén, Duke of Närke                               	Oscar II                    	1 August 1865                                	                                                	17 August 1947
Prince August, Duke of Dalarna                            	Oscar I                     	24 August 1831                               	                                                	4 March 1873
—Tamfang (talk) 21:27, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: another tabular version

message: The Swedish Act of Succession says (Art.1) that all legitimate (male or female) descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf are in the line of succession to the throne. However,
the criteria for exclusion from the line of succession mentioned in the article, i.e. marrying without the government's consent or becoming the sovereign ruler of a foreign country without the King's consent, strictly speaking apply only to a "prince or princess of the Royal House of Sweden". Similarly, again taking the text of the act literally, the exclusion of individuals who do not profess the Lutheran faith applies only to a "member of the Royal Family". 
As of today, that distinction is moot since all people currently in the line of succession happen to be also princes or princesses of Sweden and members of the Royal Family. However, in the future, unless we assume that all descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf  are ad infinitum automatically members of the Royal House or Royal Family (which would be absurd), a situation will arise when there might be people in the line of succession who might not be princes/princesses of Sweden. It will be unclear then if those people can be non-Lutherans for example and still be in the line of succession. 
That unsolved legal question might actually come up earlier than previously thought when Princess Madeleine gives birth to her first child. If the child becomes an HRH as the Royal House appears to be indicating now, then I assume Art.4 of the Act of Succession applies and the child forfeits his/her succession rights if he/she is not brought up in the Lutheran faith and in Sweden, which is also a controversial point based on the text of law only, but apparently is the understanding of the King's attorney. However, if the child is not created a prince/princess of Sweden and remains untitled like his/her father, does Art.4 cease to apply ?
161.24.19.112 (talk) 20:49, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Astute observation, except that the "ambiguity" is potential, not real, and therefore addressing it in this article would be speculative. The King has forestalled the issue becoming a real constitutional conundrum by announcing prior to his younger daughter's delivery that the grandchild will enjoy a royal title (the style of "HRH" itself, is irrelevant since European dynasties have not invariably restricted it to princely dynasts -- e.g., Alfonso, Duke of Anjou and Cadiz,  or Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh between the day before his wedding on 20 November 1947 and 22 February 1957). Madeleine's baby, it has been declared, will be a prince or princess of Sweden, and therefore fully subject to all the legal restrictions on dynasts, i.e., must marry with the Sovereign's prior consent, must be "of pure evangelical faith" (Swedish Lutheran), must be raised in Sweden, etc. While I agree that making all descendants of every monarch princes and princesses ad infinitum would be overkill, that is the reductio ad absurdum their subjects have set the Bernadottes by broadening male to absolute primogeniture in succession to the crown: That principle will  greatly expand royal families just as their governments (and critics) are bent on shrinking them. Let us hope they don't resolve it by adopting such labyrinthine and ever-changing formulae for titulature and succession rights as the Netherlands has resorted to for the poor Orange-Nassau progeny! Meanwhile, until the Swedes do restrict the royal princely title somehow, I don't see any doubt about the applicability of the laws' intrusive restrictions to an ever-widening pool of Carl XVI Gustaf's descendants -- nowadays, it's hard out here for a Prince! LOL.  FactStraight (talk) 04:27, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Ambiguity in the Act of Succession that affects the Wikipedia article

message: I have taken the listing off of the WP:3O page because a 3O was already provided. I suggest you post a WP:RFC on the question and advertise same on the Sweden and Royalty Project talk pages.  – S. Rich (talk) 02:05, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you! I am doing so now, but feel uncertain as to whether or not I'm doing it correctly, never having done this before in all these years. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:43, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute resolution alternatives 

message: Has a reference been given to refute a claim that a Wikipedia invention has been added to a list in the article or has no such reference been given? Since I have seen no link, reference of otherwise applicable info yet which clearly shows that Victoria appears elsewhere on any kind of 
list in any language called only "The Crown Princess" or "The Crown Princess, Duchess of Västergötland", I am asking again that such info be specifically provided here. References in Swedish, in that case, need to show her on such a list as "Kronprinsessan" or "Kronprinsessan, hertiginnan av Västergötland" without her name Victoria mentioned in the primary listing. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:43, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see such a reference, and finding one (or even several) such, IMAO, would not settle the issue, as that reference could be erroneous. Translating and/or transliterating titles and styles between countries and languages and dictionaries and encyclopedias is fraught with difficulties. There is, I am sure, a proper way (or perhaps several proper ways) to do this in Swedish; and I am also sure that those in Sweden who know such things have an opinion as to how to correctly say this in English (they may not know Wikipedia's rules.) There's even a handy place to ask them -- the Swedish Wikipedia.  I would invite editors from there to participate here, in this discussion, but don't know how. htom (talk) 18:38, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you! I participate there and also have invited others who do to comment here. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:50, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

text:  (edit) but I don't know how to close this RFC. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi SergeWoodzing, it's quite a simple task. Please Read: WP:RfC#Ending RfCs. I will do that for You, in the next Edit. Thanks !! ← Abstruce 07:28, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC

message: The name and titles of Princess Leonore has been published and referenced. She does not yet have a biography page on the royalcourt.se web page, but her position in the order of succession is not determined by any text on that web site.  It is determined by the Act of Succession.  This says in Article 1: 
The right of succession to the throne of Sweden is
vested in the male and female descendants of King Carl XVI
Gustaf, Crown Prince Johan Baptist Julii, later King Karl XIV
Johan’s, issue in direct line of descent. In this connection, older
siblings and their descendants have precedence over younger
siblings and their descendants.
That Princess Leonore as Princess Madeleine's first borne child comes after her in the order of succession is quite clear.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.72.127.173 (talk) 17:44, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly, but what goes into this article is determined by what sources say. See WP:Verifiability. Surtsicna (talk) 18:38, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I would think that the burdon of proof is on the side that claims that she is not in the order of succession, in contradiction of the law.  Or is the law not a verifiable source?  Anyway, here is a source that says she is in the order of succession: http://www.svt.se/nyheter/sverige/namnet-blir-offentligt  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.72.127.173 (talk) 21:15, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: What you're doing is called Synthesis WP:SYN and we don't do that. Not listing her yet is not removing her from the order of succession, it's just not listing her yet. htom (talk) 04:26, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree that it is synthesis. The law states that all descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf are in the succession. It is also stated in numerous articles of which I originally referenced one that Princess Leonore is Princess Madeleine's daughter. The WP:SYN states that "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". That Princess Leonore is in the order of succession is not an independent conclusion based on two sources. It is in fact stated in one of the sources, the Act of Succession.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.72.127.173 (talk) 05:56, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The Act does not say that Leonore is in the line. It says that legitimate descendants of Carl XVI Gustaf are in the line. It does not mention Leonore anywhere. You have a source that says that Leonore is the daughter of Madeleine, and a source that says Madeleine is the daughter of Carl XVI Gustaf, and a source that says Carl XVI Gustaf's descendants are in the line. You are combining two or even three sources to come up with the conclusion that she is in the line. I have no idea how that is not a breach of WP:SYNTHESIS to you, given that it is a textbook example of synthesis. Surtsicna (talk) 16:04, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, in Wikipedia:What SYNTH is not point 19 it is also stated that what is disallowed is original research by synthesis. If I had stated for instance that descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf must be raised in Sweden to remain in the succession and that Princess Leonore is a descendant of the King, this means that she must be raised in Sweden. That would be an incorrect assertion. Here however we have no gray area no new information being inferred.78.72.127.173 (talk) 19:43, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You are wrong - plain and simple. If you insist that you are not, take it to Wikipedia talk:No original research or ask someone knowledgeable (TransporterMan?). Surtsicna (talk) 20:32, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not advancing a position, or making a debatable statement. I am stating a fact that follows from the wording of a law. It does not even matter if Princess Leonore received a title or not, she would be in the order of succession regardless if she was a plain Miss O'Neill. I occasionally update Wikipedia articles when I discover something that is not correct or when, as in this case, a current event means the text in the article is outdated. I agree that debatable statements has no place in an article. This however, is not a debatable statement. It is sad when Wikipedia Policy is driven to extremes such that it deters occasional editors from contributing. I don't think we will get any further in this, I know that I can't be bothered to state the obvious repeatedly to no avail.78.72.127.173 (talk) 21:12, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

text:  Princess Leonore's status is still unclear IMHO. As a legitimate descendant of King Carl XVI Gustaf, she is currently in the line of succession to the throne under the terms of the Act of Succession. The fact that the King chose to grant her the title of "Princess of Sweden" and a royal duchy seems to confirm that. However, under the same Act of Succession, as a princess of the Royal House, she will lose her succession rights if she is not raised as a Lutheran and in Sweden. I expect her to be baptized in the Lutheran church (even though Chris O'Neill is Catholic), but the O'Neill couple has indicated they have no plans to move back to Sweden anytime soon. It is hard to imagine then that Princess Leonore will be "raised in Sweden" as required by Swedish law. 161.24.19.112 (talk) 14:45, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you on everything but your position on WP:Synthesis. In that regard, you are wrong. Imagine what would happen if all editors took it upon themselves to interpret laws. Otherwise, you have a valid point. Surtsicna (talk) 23:11, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

text: Actually the text that i referenced from SVT states that Princess Leonore will be going to Swedish school and that is deemed enough to satisfy the raised in Sweden requirement.78.72.127.173 (talk) 19:43, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

text: Princess Leonore's status is not at all unclear. She is a descendant of the King so she is currently in line. That however does not mean that she cannot lose her status if the requirements are not met. It is certainly not unheard of or even uncommon, two of the current king's uncles lost their succession rights under the previous Act of Succession for marrying without the consent of the king.78.72.127.173 (talk) 21:12, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The plan has been announced now by the court that she will live in Sweden by the age of 6 and attend Swedish schools. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 03:34, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Princess Leonore 

message: This keeps getting removed and rightly so for 2 reasons (1) there is WP:Undue weight given to the that recent history as opposed to history from 1809 or even further back for that matter, and (2) the English used is so substandard that it would need lots of work to correct. I am removing it again now and asking that it not be added again, especally not with all kinds of grammatical errors. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:56, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Repeated additon of lengthy history of line of succession

message: What happens when the current King and Crown Princess Victoria should both die? And at what age would Princess Estelle assume the crown?
An administrative government ("förmyndarregering") would be appointed. Estelle would assume full regnal duties on her 18th birthday. --Marbe166 (talk) 16:32, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minority of Monarch?  

message: The first reference link doesn't work.
I assume it was functional but has changed. There's this but it's in swedish.
Anyone know where an english copy of the act of succession can be gotten? Of course we can in the meantime use a swedish link.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by EpicR (talk • contribs) 21:00, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broken link to act of succession 

message: This article is a little unclear as where the succession goes beyond the immediate Royal Family. Is the succession limited by law to the current King's descendants, is it the case that every other sibling, uncle/aunt, cousin etc either had no children or were removed for "unequal marriages" or is there an heir beyond the immediate family in case of a King Ralph style tragedy? Timrollpickering (talk) 13:38, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Succession beyond the current King's descendants