Talk:Dragon/Archive 2

message: There has been some vandalism here, I don't know how to revert so I'm just gonna delete the vandalism and someone else can fix it. :)  68.207.168.171 07:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: Sorry to be a bore, but I'm a little confused as to what that infobox is adding to the page.  First, you've removed a historical image and replaced it with some sort of conceptual emblem that has no source.  Second, you've added nonsensical information to the fields in the box (last sighted is present day?  first reported in the 1890's?).  Could you possibly elaborate on your purpose before re-adding this information?
Could you also please add some actual source to the 'In Legend and Myth' section - I'm afraid if you want to present some of the fascinating stories as fact, you'll need some actual reliable sources.  A section specifically devoted to cryptozoology and labeled as such might be interesting, but let's not turn the entire mythological article into a cryto page.  Thanks!  Kuru talk 04:44, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: I wrote a (very long) report on dragons back in high school, and the general consensus of the sources I read suggested that Eastern and Western dragons had similar but seperate origins. It was alleged that the legends came from what amounted to descriptions of real-world animals, then made more and more legendary and divergent over time. Ironically, it was generally seen that the Western dragon was actually derived from a mixing of stories about snakes. Though this is fairly obvious in the form of Worms or Wurms, dragonesque creatures which were basically giant snakes, there was the more subtle allusions to it. Many dragons were described as having poisonous breath, and the fire was theorized to have arisen from the same source; e.g. it was a metaphor for poison. Meanwhile, the Eastern dragon was said to have originally derived from the Chinese Alligator, hence its affinity for water. While all of this was quite logical, I have long since lost my research and hence, the sources I cited.
The current section on speculation is absolutely terrible. It repeats the myth that dinosaur fossils were mistaken for those of dragons or were the source of the myths; indeed, this was rare and generally it was actually mammilian fossils which were seen as being the bones of such beasts, as they are much more common and easily obtained, whereas dinosaur fossils are rarer and less accessable. Moreover, it is unlikely that the legends began in this way; indeed, it is much liklier the bones were ascribed to the beasts rather than the beasts being manufactured from the bones. Titanium Dragon 09:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One author had the notion that the Loch Ness creature was an invertebrate related to modern Polychaetes or marine bristleworms. He cited some medieval sources of dragon-living-in-well tales as consistent with this hypothesis. In this theory, the fire-breath part of the tales may have come from a toxic slime that left vegetation with a scorched appearance. If I ever locate the book again, I'll cite it here. __Just plain Bill 15:46, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Purported origins of dragons

message: I arrived at this page to find it had been vandalized, with just the word "poo".
Tankmaster46 18:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism, March 22 2007 

message: It seems that the bulk of this article is lacking in citations and alot of the text has a tone that smacks of original research, esp in the "Speculation on orgins" section. Is there anyone here that has been working with refs to buiild this article that could include some inline citations? NeoFreak 14:55, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no question that the article needs a bath.  A brief glance at the rather lengthy history shows that most of the material was added without reference and one chunk at a time.  Next time I get a weekend free, I'd be happy to dig up the cited works and see if I can inline them, as well as try to dig up some references to the vast amount of unsupported material here.  The article length and cohesion could use work as well; for example the whole 'Dragons in world mythology' is somewhat redundant with List of dragons in mythology and folklore. Kuru talk 22:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refs and OR 

message: It looks like much of the discussion here is about... whether dragons are/were "real." This seems extremely strange to me, but I suppose that's a common enough speculation. I was going to add in a link and expand the section on Ouroboros - it's not very good, and understanding Ouroboros is fundamental to understanding the role of the dragon in most culture's spiritual allegory. The page seems to be locked though. Ouroboros is just another name for The Matrix from a time long before computers were invented. The serpent coiling the world and devouring its own tale is a symbol for the memeplex of unconscious beliefs that we hold about life that decieves our minds and causes us to dissipate our energy on futile endeavors in pursuit of empty goals. The "dragon-slayer" tales are all allegories in this school describing the individual's search for, and subjegation of, this slippery and powerful aspect of the human psyche. Ouroboros can also be equated to the Hindu concept of Maya (you'll note that in "The Matrix" the song playing during the climactic showdown with Smith in the final episode (entitled "Navras") is, lyrically, a Hindu verse lifted directly from the Upanishads - it is a prayer to be delivered from Maya.) "The Matrix" movie itself is essentially a modernized dragon-slayer tale, and the matrix is in fact a very old name for Ouroboros. Without this information being included in the article, no real insight is provided into the allegoric role of dragons in traditional fiction. [05/05/07]
:Sounds like a good thing that page is locked. That's a particularly twisted brand of original research and perhaps POV and not something that should be in an encyclopedia with some very clear citations to recognized experts who say such a thing, and even then it should be given as their opinion and not as fact. DreamGuy 01:45, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ouroboros 

message: Dragons of fiction have sat on piles of gold since Beowulf, but how many dragons of myth had treasure hoards? (Yes, I know the line between fiction and myth is a little blurry.) 63.215.28.84 14:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Treasure Hoards 

message: I ascribe to a belief similair to the chines, that hold their lineage to a dragon. of which
 apperentlly ther are more than one. what if the dragon were a refernece to older 
civilizations and poeple.  indo china has amazing public works upon its rivers just as egypt, around similiar times of construction. could the dragon be a reference held over from 
legends/histories at the time of those civilizations?  In my opinion yes.
--MZMcBride 19:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've disabled the editprotected request. Editprotected tags are usually only used for minor edits (typo fixes, blatant errors, etc.). Also, the request was very difficult to understand. Cheers. --MZMcBride 19:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  is the dragon an ancient civilization? 

message: When I want to find out more about the reality and classification of supernatural beings, I go to Tibetan Lamas, who know such things in great detail.  I suggested to one such that surely dragons were members of the Naga class.  The Naga are considered a powerful and varied class of supernatural beings.  After all, dragons look somewhat snake-like and, like Nagas, control weather and have great knowledge.  His reply was interesting.  Dragons were not part of the Naga class, he said.  Also, Nagas are part of the ghost class, one of the six major classes into which Buddhists divide beings.  I have since verified this latter remark by reference to Sadhanas (ritual chanting texts).
This lama (who comes from an extremely remote part of Tibet, one of the world's most remote places) said that his uncle occasionally used to travel to a distant lake and had on two occasions seen the dragons come down out of the sky to drink.  (In a Tibetan way of thinking, such a being would only appear as solid or visible in our realm when it wanted to be).
This reminds me.  During the 20th century, Buddhism in Thailand was revived and restored by an extraordinary enlightened master, Ven. Acharn (Thai for Acharya) Mun(1870-1949), whose students are the most prominent in Thai Buddhism today.  In his autobiography there are two (section 100 and section 177)histories of his encounters with nagas.  I will retell one story as I heard it from one of the Acharn's main students:  One night when Acharn was staying in the village of Nong Phue, he asked all his students to shut themselves up in their huts at night and take no notice of any unusual sound.  They heard some very strange noises that night.  In the morning, they found a channel about two feet wide and six inches and more deep had been gounged through the sand to the Acharn's Hut, and again away from the hut.  Both trails vanished at the corner of the forest.  The Acharn told them that he had been visited by a Naga, who had appeared in solid form out of respect.  Many monks who are famous teachers now saw this trail.  Incidentally, the monk who told me this speaks seven languages and holds a master's degree in physics.
The Thai also believe that Naga and other beings can appear in the form of humans, usually for no reason that portends good for human beings.
Reference: Maha Bhoowa, Acharn, tr.Buddhasukh, THE VENERABLE PHRA ACHARN MUNBHURIDATTA THERA Meditation Master, Thailand, Wat Pa Barn Tard, 1982.  Copies availavle at several places online (http://www.bdcu.org.au/BDDR/bddr12no7/)
Geoff Byng
Geoff Byng 11:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nagas and Dragons

message: The only etymology in this article is under the Christianity sub-heading. Does anyone think this would go better at the start of the article, or even under an etymology heading, where it could be expanded?--Jcvamp 00:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: Added the taniwha, a Māori mythical beast which is at least very dragon-like — but neglected to log in first — NakedCelt 08:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Taniwha