Talk:Acharya S/Archive 7

message: <<Regarding Masonry... do quote where Acharya states a "belief" "that a conspiracy involving free-masons, pagans, and Jews fabricated not only the gospel accounts of Jesus and the story of Jesus' life, but also the story of the apostles, and Paul, and apparently John the Baptist." You state that she "believes" this... any proof that this is a fact?>>
Is there any evidence that she has this belief? (There is an epistemological difference between "proof" and "evidence", just to nitpick. Even if I had a signed note from Acharya saying that she holds these beliefs, that would not be proof, because it could be forged. It would, however, be fairly strong evidence.) At least in the criticisms, there is evidence to support this statement.
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Epistemological difference? The nature of knowledge can be applied to the diffference between proof and evidence? Belief begins where fact ends and relies upon faith without proof to breath life into that which would have none otherwise. I think you need to check your dictionary before nitpicking or guessing the meaning of words... proof is  "The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true." Evidence means "To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove." In law, evidence is that which is "Plainly visible; to be seen". 
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* Freemasons: Mike Licona states, "The thesis of The Christ Conspiracy is that pagans and Jews who were Masons from the first and second centuries got together and invented the account of Jesus and his disciples in order to create a religion which it was hoped would serve as a one-world religion for the Roman empire." Acharya, in her rebuttal, doesn't see fit to challenge this characterization. Further, he expends an entire section on Freemasonry. In her rebuttal, Acharya does not rebut the allegation that she believes that Masons were involved, but rather defends her allegations that they are. For example, she states that "In addition, in establishing the Masonic connection to Christianity, I reproduce a long excerpt from Thomas Paine's 'Origin of Freemasonry.'"
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She does challenge that characterization... 
 
"Regarding Masonry, while disparaging my information concerning its involvement in the creation of Christianity, Licona holds up an "expert" Mason as if he were omniscient! And all this "expert" does is say, "False," etc. Apparently, that settles the case, because, after all, he is an omniscient expert! If such is the case, then the Magistrate and Mason  Godfrey Higgins must have been correct in his many assertions that Licona is attempting to assail. Moreover, other Masons, such as Knight and Lomas in The Hiram Key (314), validate some of the claims found in The Christ Conspiracy, such as the obvious Masonic symbolism of "Peter," i.e., the Rock, or stone, and his keys, elements which Licona's all-knowing expert simply and unconvincingly denies as having Masonic meaning."
She also states: "There is actually nothing "radical" at all in the theory that a bunch of men got together and created a god or godman in order to produce a religion. In fact, it's the most important aspect of priestcraft and has been done thousands of times over the millennia. What about all the gods and goddesses such as the Sumerian, Egyptian, Indian, Greek, Roman and European? I assume that Licona doesn't believe them to be genuine gods or "real people." Hence, he would doubtlessly claim that the "lying Pagan priests" made them up! Well, all I am saying is that the "lying Christian priests" made up one more!"   
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He also quotes Acharya as saying "The historian Josephus certainly knew of the Masons and allegedly was one . . ."(108) This demonstrates that Acharya believes that the Masons have been around since at least the first and second centuries AD.
Even assuming that Licona is flat out lying, Acharya's words in her response show that she believes that there is a Masonic connection to Christianity. The above quote demostrates that she believes them to have been around for much longer than is commonly suspected. At most, he is lying about Acharya claiming that they were involved in the original conspiracy. Acharya saw no reason to contradict him in this statement though. In short, I see no reason to doubt Licona's characterization of Acharya's thesis as stating that freemasons were involved in the creation of the "Christ Conspiracy". My main confusion is this: does Licona mean (pagans and Jews) who were free-masons, or pagans and (Jews who were free-masons)?
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Licona selectively picks only that which he can take issue with. 
http://www.truthbeknown.com/josephus.htm
As for the masons being around, that has been covered previously:
"The "burden of proof" for the existence of Freemasonry before the 17th century can be found in the url you provided... just read what it says. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry 
If that is not good enough try these: 
http://www.oelodge.uklinux.net/history.htm http://users.1st.net/fischer/MASHST01.HTM http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09771a.htm
And as stated before: "you provide where she made that claim beyond speculation and the drawing of correlations."
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* Paul: Again, according to Mike Licona: "She believes that all of Paul’s letters are forgeries. In support of this position she quotes Joseph Wheless: "The entire ‘Pauline group’ is the same forged class . . . says E. B. [Encyclopedia Biblica] . . . ‘With respect to the canonical Pauline Epistles, . . . there are none of them by Paul; neither fourteen, nor thirteen, nor nine or eight, nor yet even the four so long "universally" regarded as unassailable. They are all, without distinction, pseudographia (false-writings, forgeries). . .’"(48) She also quotes Hayyim ben Yehoshua who writes, "we are left with the conclusion that all the Pauline epistles are pseudepigraphic" and he also refers to Paul as a "semi-mythical" figure.(49) Again, this is a position that no major scholar takes."
I suppose it could be that she believes that Paul was only semi-mythical - that there was a historical Paul, but his letters are forgeries and virtually everything we know about him is false.
* The Apostles: I have no evidence to submit, except to note that 1) Mike Licona's summary of Acharya's thesis characterizes it as saying that, 2) Acharya didn't see fit to rebut the point, 3) if Acharya is going to say that Paul, who appears later in the mainstream historical narrative and had no personal interaction with Jesus, is (semi)-mythical, then I see nothing preventing her from claiming the same for the earlier apostles who are recording as having interactions with the mythical Jesus.
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Other references: 
http://www.truthbeknown.com/jesuspuzzle.htm
http://www.truthbeknown.com/cutner.htm
http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins2.htm
http://www.truthbeknown.com/footnote.htm footnote 22
http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra_05.htm
http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins6.htm
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* John the Baptist: Again, Mike Licona: "Murdock's claim is grossly naïve as well as false. Josephus’ passage on John the Baptist(73) is regarded as authentic and is hardly disputed by scholars. Edwin Yamauchi, Professor of History at Miami University writes, "No scholar has questioned the authenticity of this passage, though there are some differences between Josephus's account and that in the Gospels . . ."(74) New Testament scholar, Robert Van Voorst of Western Theological Seminary likewise comments that the passage by Josephus on John the Baptist is "held to be undoubtedly genuine by most interpreters"(75) and that "scholars also hold [it] to be independent of the New Testament."(76) John Meier, professor of New Testament at The Catholic University of America writes that Josephus' mentioning of John the Baptist is "accepted as authentic by almost all scholars" and that it "is simply inconceivable as the work of a Christian of any period."(77) Jewish scholar, Louis Feldman of Yeshiva University and perhaps the most prominent expert on Josephus comments on this passage: "There can be little doubt as to the genuineness of Josephus’ passage about John the Baptist."(78) Therefore, Murdock's comment that this passage has "been dismissed by scholars and Christian apologists alike as forgeries" is demonstrably false.
:"The reasons for accepting the authenticity of this passage are: (a) The style and vocabulary belong to Josephus. (b) If a subsequent Christian editor added the passage, we would expect a comment about John's preaching regarding the Messiah who was Jesus. (c) An interpolator would most likely not have included the discrepancy between the Gospels and Josephus in terms of the reason John was executed."
I seem to recall that Josephus is the only source we have on John the Baptist outside the Gospels that was written close to the time that he lived. (My memory might be shaky on this.) Since no scholar believes that this passage of Josephus was fake, the only reason I can see for her to allege that it is is if she wants to imply that John the Baptist is mythical. Admittedly, my evidence on this point is rather shaky, hence the "apparently".
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This is blatant beliefism doing its cya dance. Most minstream scholars say that the entries to the Testimonium are not by Josephus. E.g. "The passage 3.3 fails a standard test for authenticity, in that it contains vocabulary not otherwise used by Josephus, according to the Complete Concordance to Flavius Josephus, ed. K. H. Rengstorf, 2002."
It should be noted that in his earlier work, The Jewish War, written shortly after the revolt under the auspices of the Emperor Vespasian, Josephus did not mentioned Jesus, nor John the Baptist, nor James, while in Antiquities, written in the early 90s C.E., he mentions all three. 
The history of scholarly argument over the years is as follows.
93
The book Jewish Antiquities by Josephus was published in Rome. It contained at least one reference to "James, the brother of Jesus called the Christ." Manuscripts surviving today also contain a description of Jesus. But was this description present in the year 93?
c. 230-250
The Christian writer Origen cited Josephus' section on the death of James "the brother of Jesus" in Book 20 of the Antiquities. But he stated that Josephus did not believe in Jesus, and did not cite the TF passage in Book 18.
c. 324
Eusebius quoted the TF in full, in the form that survives today in all manuscripts.
10th Century
The Arab historian Agapius quoted a version of the TF that differed from that of Eusebius. It did not have the most obvious Christian elements. However, this version was lost to scholarship until 1971.
16th Century
Joseph Scaliger first suspected the authenticity of the TF due to its Christian content.
17th Century
Richard Montague, Bishop of Norwich, declared that the phrase "He was the Messiah" is a later Christian addition.
1737
Whiston published his translation of Josephus, and argued that the TF we have is entirely authentic. He argues that the passage should be read from the perspective of a contemporary of Josephus, in which case the Christian elements are not so alarming; and that, in any case, Josephus could very well have been a Jewish believer in Jesus (a Jewish Christian or "Ebionite").
18th - early 20th Century
Other scholars argue the passage is forged in whole or in part. Later scholars opposing authenticity include: Schurer, Niese, Norden, Zeitlin, Lewy, and Juster.
1929
H. St J. Thackeray supported the interpolation theory, and credits Josephus' "Greek assistants" for variation in styles throughout the Antiquities. He also noted several correspondences (but not the TF) between the Gospel of Luke and the Antiquities, and suggested that Luke may have been present at readings of Josephus' work in Roman, and that the two may even have met.
1931
R. Eisler, in his influential The Messiah Jesus, suggests Christians censored and deleted large portions of the original text, and offered a reconstruction by inserting new text into the passage.
1941
C Martin identified select portions of the Testimonium as probably interpolations, while the rest he considered authentic.
1954
Paul Winter argued that there are just three interpolations in the TF, and the rest is genuine. "He was the Messiah" and "if indeed he can be called a man" are considered most suspect, as is the latter section describing the resurrection and the prophecies. This identification of the interpolations became a popular view (reiterated by John Meier, 1991).
c. 1960
Hans Conzellman notes that the TF resembles "the Lukan kerygma", the essential beliefs presented by Luke in his gospel and in Acts. He therefore concludes that the passage must be entirely forged by a Christian.
1963
Feldman writes: "The most probable view seems to be that our text represents substantially what Josephus wrote, but that some alterations have been made by a Christian interpolator".
1971
In a startling find, Shlomo Pines published citations of the TF appearing in Arabic and Syriac works of the 9th-10th centuries. These quotations substantially resemble our current Testimonium, but do not have two of the most suspicious phrases: "he was the Messiah" and "if indeed he can be called a man". Pines suggested these editions may have used an authentic, un-interpolated version of Josephus' work.
1973-1983
Karl Rengstorf published his massive concordance of Josephus' work, listing references to every word, allowing scholars for the first time a tool to study Josephus' style quantitatively.
1984
J. Neville Birdsall used Rengstorf's new concordance to study the style of the TF. He concluded that there are too many discrepancies for the passage to be genuine, and it may be entirely forged.
1991
John Meier studied the question again, repeating his support for Winter's view. This work is influential among contemporary scholars, including John Dominic Crossan and John O'Connor-Murphy.
1995
G J Goldberg identified a regular series of correspondences between the TF and the Emmaus narrative of Luke. He argued that these are so close the two must have been derived from a common source, a Christian document now lost.
http://homepages.which.net/~radical.faith/background/josephusonjesus.htm   
You must understand where Mike Licona is coming from. He states that he believes in the inerrancy and infallibility of the bible. To him, it is the word of god. He has two major credibility problems... one, he is duty bound to defend his beliefs by any means he can to justify his beliefs, and two... he is financially dependent on having the one and only truth. 
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* Does Acharya believe this? Actually, I have considered the possibility that all of this is a truly massive practical joke on the part of Acharya. However, that would be a violation of Hanlon's Razor.
I'll admit that I have not read Acharya's books. However, based on the evidence present in her critic's writings and in her own responses to those critics, I must concluded that her thesis is much as I have described it. If anybody who has actually read the book wishes to dispute my characterization of her thesis, my ears are wide open.
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Would iit not be so that if you have not read the books, then relying on what others say to refute them is hypocrisy and by virtue of your choice as to what to use merely demonstrates your own blind, biased, prejudiced beliefs? 
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<<Mike Licona must not be aware of the timeline of christianity... Hinduism dates to around 5000 BC http://hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_antiquity.htm and Buddhism to circa 500 BC http://www.aboutbuddhism.org/history-of-buddhism.htm>>
The emphasis here is on certain obscure branches of Hinduism and Buddhism, not Hinduism and Buddhism themselves. The phrase "certain obscure branches" is my own, not Licona's, and it may be that, at least for the Hinduism branches, they are not all that obscure.
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Nonetheless, Christianity would have only influenced other religions after its inception. What proof is ther eof this Christian influence and when did it transpire?
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* Krishna: In Licona's reply to Acharya's response to his first article: "Regarding your “Christian sources,” Lundy and Georgius, even if you are correct, Lundy and Georgius write of their contemporary experiences with present-day Hindus. This does nothing to support your position that Hindus in antiquity worshipped a crucified Krishna. Hindu traditions on the life of Krishna come from the Bhagavata Purana and the Harivamsa, which as I pointed out in my paper, both post-date the rise of Christianity and, therefore, do nothing to support your thesis.(57)"
* Buddha: From Acharya's rebuttal to Licona: "One aspect that demonstrates my knowledge of the orthodox story, which, naturally since it is readily available, long preceded my becoming aware of the contested information, is the fact that I cited these same contested characteristics. The same may be said concerning Buddha, which is obvious from my numerous footnotes, in particular as concerns the contested motifs, and from my statement on p. 109 of The Christ Conspiracy:
"'Because of this non-historicity and of the following characteristics of the Buddha myth, which are not widely known but which have their hoary roots in the mists of time, we an safely assume that Buddha is yet another personification of the ancient, universal mythos being revealed herein.' (Emph. added.)
"For the intelligent, it should have been obvious that I know very well the orthodox tales of these various godmen. Hence, Licona is either being deceptive in his presentation of the facts or he is not as clever as he likes to think."
From Licona: "In your rebuttal and citing your own words from The Christ Conspiracy, you write of, “this non-historicity and of the following characteristics of the Buddha myth, which are not widely known [ital. yours] but which have their hoary roots in the mists of time . . .”(58) We still have yet to learn from where you get your “not widely known” information. You simply quote others who many times turn out being terribly wrong and unscholarly in both their exegesis and reasoning."
This is what I gather Licona is getting at: Acharya's characterizations of Buddhism and Hinduism are, on the whole, false. In the case of Krishna-worship, they might be true of certain sects, but the origins of these sects post-date the writing of the gospels, and therefore either represent a convergent, but independent, development in two religious traditions, or are else borrowings from Christianity. Assuming that Acharya's "not widely known" information pans out, the same might be true of Buddhism - not true for the vast majority of sects, but possibly true for certain sects. It has yet to be determined whether these hypothetical sects pre- or post-date the gospels.
At any rate, the dispute over the possible Eastern origins of certain themes of Christianity is merely a sideshow. What should be focused on is her allegation that large chunks of the New Testament are the fabrications of a conspiracy. While her allegation that Eastern religious traditions were used as source material by the conspiracy is interesting (because it would mean that this ancient conspiracy had far greater knowledge of India than what we think the Romans had), but I don't suppose it matters too much where the conspiracy got their material from. Her allegations of borrowing from Eastern traditions has about the same level of interest as her allegations that the sections of Tacitus dealing with the Christians are interpolations of later Christian editors. crazyeddie 20:49, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's off-topic. You want to write about that website, start an article. Charles Matthews 17:56, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I have told you before not to personalise this. And that's a non sequitur, anyway. And it's ridiculous to think this article is going to do more than summarise some points in Acharya's writing, and some of the counter-arguments that have been brought forward. As you seem to have no shame in subverting your 3RR blocking, I'm going to block this IP number too. Charles Matthews 19:16, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: For Crazy

message: 48 hour block for personal abuse: cf. note at top of this page. Charles Matthews 16:26, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: User:Rpsugar (Skull) blocked

message: I plan to unprotect this page in a day or two, as it has been protected for a while. 
However, please note that that will not mean that anything goes. In the meantime, I would suggest as reading Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, which says that articles need to be written in a balanced way representing all views. That is, whether you love or hate the subject of this article, try to get down to writing a somewhat neutral biography. No need for too many external references embedded inside of the text (use the external links for that), no need for excessively strong language one way or another. No need for too much passion either. 
Also please read Wikipedia:No personal attacks. It sums up to the fact that even if you disagree, you should treat each other with respect. It is impossible to get an agreement about anything if anybody throws offences around. Excessive personal attacks may result in a block from editing. 
Please note that reverting an article more than three times in 24 hours will also result in a block, see Wikipedia:Three-revert rule. Note that a revert does not need to mean plain undoing of an edit from the page history. Repeated addition or removal of some text is considered also a revert, and again, no more than three of those in 24 hours (although preferably not at all).
And if the situation goes out of control I plan to protect this article again.  No, I don't enjoy doing that, I hope I will be out of here as soon as possible. The whole point is to keep a productive atmosphere. Thanks. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 22:36, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And thank you very much! I looked over your user page, and I think we can expect neutrality from you if no one else, Oleg! It is my guess that the personal attacks and edit warring is less fierce regarding the articles @ User:Oleg_Alexandrov/Contribs? %) Sam Spade 22:45, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotecting this page 

message: Please read what I wrote above about not returning to edit wars and about not using personal attacks. No matter if you love or hate that person, try to give a neutral outline of this person and her work. Given enough information, the readers should be able to choose what to think of this author. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 18:41, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  page is unprotected 

message: Dear A.J.A. and James, I don't think your approach is productive. This will escalate in an edit war, when I will revert the page to the protected version and protect it again. Lots of frustration and wasted effort spent on nothing.
I would suggest you work on the text paragraph by paragraph. Do not go to the next paragraph until you agree on the current one. Things you can't agree on put them up for vote, with each of you explaining your reasoning. Other people watching this page will comment then. Your approach of rasing issues by the boatload and then doing wholesale reverts won't work. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 05:10, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am also unhappy w the reverts. Merge your text, discuss your ideas, and slow down. There is no rush, and at this rate you'll get the article reprotected anyhow. Sam Spade 07:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Hello? 154.5.113.247 00:09, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion 

message: Re: Archetypes. Do archetypes explain the political aspects of establishing a large religious institution? Is it possible that the early church fathers "yoked the power of myth", harnessed the archetypal power of these stories for political purposes? That they were well aware of their mythical and symbolic nature, yet passed them off as literal history? ^^James^^ 19:25, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. Have you ever heard of mysticism? It runs thru nearly all religions, a shared understanding of the truth behind the allegory. Sam Spade 07:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply to Sam Spade

message: I protected the page, at the current version, which is by 66.82.9.84. That is in no way an endorsement of that version, rather, was the simplest thing to do. 
Please heed my earlier suggestion of talking things paragraph by paragraph. And if anything, the number of links to http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm is excessive. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 02:22, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page protected 

message: You knw, Lobo, rather than acuce all who edit the aritlce aay form your "Fair and balanced" advertisement for your mistresss, you could try showign the aculs Bias. Personal attakcs on anyoen who defies the will of Dorothy Murdock, AKA Acharya S, doesnt rellay substantiate htis.
Now, theproblems withthis "
 Fir and hoenst" article are repeated. Address htem, and donot simply try to bash peopel for reigious beleifs tyoy presume they have.
1: THir are too many links ot "Truth be known." Wikipeida typiclaly doesnt link to the sam site over twice, and mist tiem sonly once. The aritlc eis ont h author andnot her idea so thier is no need ot link tot he " Christain prigins" essay. The min site of the author is the only oen eneded. The intenral linsk ot he site are absolutley absurd in their continuation.
2: Removal of the Email Exchnge betweenthe Authori and another is also unaccepbale. If this had been a pisitive display, it owudl be greatly wrelcomed, btu as it makes the reader suspicius of Acharya S, it is remved. You saybeleivers are duty bound to alter the arilce to defne fhtier fiaht, but this omisison shows an exampel of hwo you ilnce oposition to further your own faith.
3: Mor eon her acutla life is needed.
4: The critism seciton needs ot be abotu actual critism of her owrk, andnot turncated to remove the meat of the arugments agisnt her. it wa sher fant th elctedt o make hgis abotu her owrk, andhtye ought to relaise htis means alloign her deficets and contradicitosn to be exposed as well;.
5: Why is it that, we cannot rmeove the absurd claim that sh is " A Historian, linguist, rleiiosu Shcolar, and Archeologist" and yet, the very argumetns you us to support htese lciam int he tlak page, nanely, that xhes written towbooks on religion and htus is a rleigiosu schoalr, ect, cnanot alsobe inthe aritlce sto shwo the reaosn why its absurd? it seems you wantot vindicate he lable int he tlak page whle rmeoving the fac thtta he has no creentials form the arilc itsself ot conceal the truthabotu her.
6: Why is it that yoy disemble informaitonon her views, tyin to normilise them with recognised theories? why nto allwo the reader to see the true extent of this conspriacy theorists work?
7: why stoop tp cheap charecter asdasinaiton and claim abotu ow beleivers cant leav ehte arile alone, when in fact yo have neithr shwion how beleivers try to ridicule her or promote thie blifs, nor have you hshown how you tyourself are fair andbalanced?
Really, thecurrent form of the aritlce cnanto stand as it is Biase din ehr faovur and is not NPOV. Any attmot to make it POV is sen as beelivers riidculign ehr, but this is a joke.
Zarove
63.17.131.76 04:19, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree... with the caveat that when a link is provided to answer a specific charge, it makes sense to leave it. The Truth Be Known  site is way to vast to expect the reader to wade through it to disspell a specific charge. Putting a link in as though a footnote relieves the necessity of citing it in part or on whole thus relieving the effect of taking up way too much space and making the article cumbersome. 
01/30/06   -el Lobo
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James and Lobo...your suggestions make good sense.  Zarove--if you want to respond to me, do it in your own space.  I am not likely to respond to you anyway, because first of all it is tortuous to even read your posts.  Secondly, your record keeps skipping--I toss mine in the garbage bin.  I sure as heck can't repair yours.  --Skull 17:43, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Slandr again

message: Of course Lobo and Jmes make mroe sence than I do. They support Acharya S.
Her website isnt that massive. its acutlaly much msaller than her critics websites, and they typiclaly house fa rmore essays than she does. 
The links are repetitious. And again, the "Origins" essay is nt the most pertenant. The artocle is on Acharya S, not about hwo she pretends ot have uncovered the shokcign truth that Jesus didnt exist and presnet it in her "Irrefutable" way.
Again, look at other Wikipeida artilces. No other aritlce has so many links to the same website, muhc les the sameessay on said website.
And agin, rmeoval of ghe critism makes the aricle bias, just as presentign her self-proffessed credentials withotu explainign that she doesnt rlelay have any credibility in these fields is a revelationfo bais.
Removal of the King David link, with an E-Mail exchange withthe author, is bais. ( And oden to prevent pepel form relaisign that she cnanot answer direct critism.)
Relaly now, yoyur claism agaisnt editors who donot agre that Acharya S is the most brillaint schoalr of all times has becoem an absurdity. The aritlce is not her to promote her ridiculosu conspriacy theory. Neither hsodul we tryto hide her mroe outlandish beelifs because you wnt ot artificially create for her credibiltiy.
Oh and Skull, mockery of my spelling, even while knowing I am dyslexic, is harldy germane to the topic. I knwo you prefer to call me a Psycho along wiht orothy, but lets not bother brigning such mudslignign ehre. Even in my abscnece the article was ocntested, and I am afraid that all charges agaisnt me beign soemhow Bias arent supported by evidence. On the otherhand, you, James, and Lobio, are clealry bias.
63.17.212.2 19:43, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Of ocurse...

message: I didnt put words in your mouth, James, this is both what you intend andwhat you or ypru compatriots have stated.
You want the citations form critcs removed. You want the link to the email excange removed. You want the link to the CHrist Myth essay in, as well as a link to the mainpage. ( Thus having two links ot the same website.) Its claimed this is needful due to the fact that its the main essya. But main essya ofwhat? Keep in mind this is about her, not her ideas.
Likewise, if it was the most mportant link, why not omit the link to the mainpage and just the essya? The answer is simple, because she isnt 100% about that oen essay. But he essya can be eaisly foudn by anyone hwo goes to the mainpage of her site as its pprominalty linked.
Its redundant, but its needed because it promotes your agenda.
JKust like removign the citaitosn form crritics meets it.
Int he apst you and your confederates claimd the Critism section was biased as it wasnot citaitons, tellign others what was siad, and was just a poitn fo point sayign what her critics have sated. Then, when we put in citaitons, yoy complain about htese as well.
So, we cnanot add generic sumation of the Critism leveled at her owrk, and we cannot wuote the critics of her work. This is what you ocnsider fair and balanced, silencign any who point out hat her facts and research are not grand, and ar eindeed erroneous.
Liekwise, you endlesly link to her page, mainly tot he CHrist Myth essay, in viutlaly every paragrpah. Even if it where ocnceeded otbe nedful it shoudl be only linekd once, int he external lunks section. You merley link it to assure thta its read.
Just as you link to her "Rebuttal" to risenJesus's article, but not the rejoinder, in the extenrla links.
Its obviosu that you want her to gt hte last word and to appear credibel tot he reader, rathere thna simply giving the facts.
Now, smeare me. Sya I am a zealoted fundamentlaist Christain out to destory Acharyas good name. I no logner am concened, you have ruine dmy rpeutaitonehre nayway as the "Only Anti-Acharyan:. But its nto true, and nohtign Ive written int he aitcle reflects either personal beleifs I hold nor are an attemot to smear the author. On the other hand you and your cohorts smear me acosntant, and Dorothy has taken potshots at me. All the while yo come up with one excuse after another to make sure the aritlc reads faovurabely to her.
We cannto sumerise the critism of her book, as its not a direct citaiton. And we cnanto include citaitons form ehr critics as this serves no purpose. In other words, her work muist stand uncontested. Just as her Credentials must be accepted at face Vlaue, even ignorign the fac that she is not a Historian, Linguist, or religios schoalr, and her Archeology career ended with undergrad work.
Really now James, you and your company atre transparent in your endeavur to bias Wikipedia and will not forever continue to win here.
ZAROVE 16:18, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "you endlesly link to her page, mainly tot he CHrist Myth essay, in viutlaly every paragrpah." 
HUH??? Do you just make this stuff up??? I count one link to the origins.htm essay. Most of the other links I didn't add. And yes, I want the criticisms sourced. It's wiki policy. But that doesn't mean the citations need to be on the article itself. 
Where criticisms are included, rebuttles should also be included. And rejoinders as well. 
Of course, Holding's and Licona's websites should not be included in the first place. They are not reliable sources. Wikipedia does aspire towards certain standards: WP:RS WP:V 
"Just because information is sourced doesn't mean that it is acceptable to add it to Wikipedia."
"the source has to have a good reputation for accuracy for the sort of information it is being used to reference." 
Evaluating Sources: "Do they have an agenda or conflict of interest, strong views, or other bias which may color their report?" 
"Find out what other people say about your sources." 
"Partisan political and religious sources should be treated with caution..."
Based on the above, I intend to remove these sites as soon as the page protection is lifted. 
^^James^^ 21:18, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Words in the mouth

message: If only you would address the bit about long ranting...
Im not ranting.
''
"you endlesly link to her page, mainly tot he CHrist Myth essay, in viutlaly every paragrpah." 
HUH??? Do you just make this stuff up??? I count one link to the origins.htm essay. Most of the other links I didn't add. And yes, I want the criticisms sourced. It's wiki policy. But that doesn't mean the citations need to be on the article itself.''
You as collective. You. El Lobo, Skull. All of you.
Where criticisms are included, rebuttles should also be included. And rejoinders as well.
Do you relaly think cllign somone a Psycho or scumbag is deservant of actual inclusion?
Dorothy does not rebutt charges. She only makes verbal attakc son any who point otu defecets in ehr work.
As for rejoinders, yoi wotn allow Liconas rejoinder inthe external link section.
Of course, Holding's and Licona's websites should not be included in the first place. They are not reliable sources. Wikipedia does aspire towards certain standards: WP:RS WP:V
Accordign to whom? I told evryone you owudl attmeot to rmove them. THe fact that Acharya S critises Christainity is no reaosn to include a CHristain apologist? COme now, their more rputable than Dorothy Murdock is.
The only reason you seek their removal is because you seek to silence the oposition> You want ot promote the Christ Myth idea that Dorothy promotes. This, of ocruse, means not allowign a Chrisyain to sya anything. ANy apologetivs site will be objected to, dispite the fact that Dorohy is firt and formost an oponant of CHristendom.
"Just because information is sourced doesn't mean that it is acceptable to add it to Wikipedia."
"the source has to have a good reputation for accuracy for the sort of information it is being used to reference." [3] [4] [5] [6]''
And TEkton has this. Unless you want us to beelive their detractors. Of coruse, you want us nto to bother with Acharya S's detrtactors. But you wont scuple to shut down any of her critics base don their critics. Justa s you lie and distort abotu ditors motives here.
RisenJesus has not evenbeen discussed as unreliable, and you offr no reaosn for its rmeoval. Btu thats OK, sicne you dotn need to, The criterion is simple, If it is a CHrisyain soirce, it is bad.If it is an Ahtiets soruce that beelvies Jeuss was a rela man, its queasitonable. If its a fellow CHristmyther, it passes, btu barley, as it challegnes the gretaest schoalr on earth.
Evaluating Sources: "Do they have an agenda or conflict of interest, strong views, or other bias which may color their report?"
COnsider this aritlce for a moment.
Acharya S herself has a sorng bias. ANd by allowing the objecitons ot be raised we do nothing more htn what i doen with other Critics of CHristendom. Most allow Christain repsonces to be rpesented, dispit the (Obvious) Bias. If you defend CHristantiy form soemoen elses attakc, you have taken a side. This is not agaisnt wikipedia policy for inclusion hwoever. If it wher, then we woudl need ot edit out the fact that RIchard Dawkins madd attac on Christendom, and rmeove the enture section of Apologetics. lets nto foget te link yyo added that Crritisised Tekton Ministries. Added, of coruse, tot h Tekton site. You wodul invent an excuse for its inclusion, justa s you woudl for th exclusion of apologetics sources here.
 
"Find out what other people say about your sources."
"Partisan political and religious sources should be treated with caution..."''
Agian, Acharya S attakcs CHristainity. Apoogist sites are obviously gign to be included ot balance the artilce.Liekwise, the "Other people" can themselves be critised. Why is it that if you find an Anti-Tekton Ministires site, you automaticllay cry out as if its proof that they are disreputable? Why nto scrutinise them? Of coruse, the rason is that they do not but aid you in your own agenda.
Based on the above, I intend to remove these sites as soon as the page protection is lifted. ^^James^^ 21:18, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "A doctrine insulates the devout not only against the realities around them but also against their own selves. The fanatical believer is not conscious of his envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty. There is a wall of words between his consciousness and his real self."  -Eric Hoffer
02/02/06    -el Lobo
El Lobo, puttign aside your prsonal malice and vendictiveness aagaisnt Religion in general and Christianiy in particular, how does the above quote relate tot he current issue of the aritlce at hand? Zarove-
63.17.141.86 18:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

text: If you take it as anything, then it is you that relate to it... as witnessed by your interpretation of my personal malice and vindictiveness against religion demonstrates. I have no malice against the institutionalization of belief... (aka religion) my objective would be the enlightnement that shows that there is no need of it. If religion were banned from being taught to minors and only allowed to be presented to adults... it would only garner the sick and weak. Take money and power out of the equation and it would dry up and blow away. It is not vindictiveness that calls for an education and training that would create a society that is self reliant and independent comprised of individuals that are free from the dependency on government and religion for their well being. That said... believers that cannot escape their indoctrination and whose fear and selfishness drive them cannot and will not allow any contradiction to their beliefs to go undenied. This article will not be left to exist without that denial first and formost in its presentation. There is nothing that religion does that cannot be done without it. 
02/03/06   -el Lobo
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I would like it to be known that someone here has deleted my last post in here which made some suggestions, which I will repeat here.  I should also let you know that the same person sent a request for change of password for me, which I did not.  I have sent a letter back to wiki.  This is just the kind of thing someone would do who changes their ip addrese frequently and is only in here for malicious mischievous intent.  You know of who I am accusing! I will be suggesting that the anonymity of using Wikipedia should be removed...with some suggestions, as it only draws malicious mischief makers.  Admins.---is that possible?
My suggestion was to put all the so-called "critics" in a "detractor" section, because they are but fraudsters out to protect a fraud.  Infidel Guys has shown Holding to be nothing but a money grubbing scamster.  Licona is not considered by anyone to be of reputable worth to be used as a critic either.  Until a genuine one comes along---and Price could be one, if he weren't so petty--I suggest he also be put in this category.  I will not accept any "critic" unless they publish their critiques in a popular secular format, wherein responses can be given.  I do not object to apologists attempting to refute---but in a place where everyone can see the foolishness of their arguements and where trickery is much harder to do.--Skull 23:08, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: lets see