Talk:Voßstraße/Archive 1

message: The Voßstraße street was likely named after a person named Voß, see also Voss (surname), several  promising candidates listed there.--Matthead 17:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Street named after Voß 

message: @Adam: First of all great job on all the street articles: however, and I know that seems to be a subject you are very passionate about, I find the name of the article simply awkward. 
1) The article itself is inconsistent in its use of variants of the name.
2) It would never be written like this in German, because Straße (or Strasse), as a noun, would be capitalised, so it should at least be Voss-Strasse.
3) By all means, Voßstraße is the German name of the street, so either translate it completely, and call it Voss Street, or stick to the German name. And with all due respect, I don't think that ß is an insult to readers. And, for example, Déjà vu uses the accents, also I would suppose that a large part of readers doesn't know what they are for and how they change pronounciation (although I see the difference between adding an accent and using a different letter). User:Blur4760 12:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm really beginning to lose track of this system you seem to have designed as to what letters and combinations will cause trouble. Is ß bad because it will be confused with B? What about the V, English speakers will probably assume that is a voiced constant, whereas it is unvoiced in German (maybe written Foss in English?). What about the e at the end? Silent or not? And what does it matter that English words are not written with three identical letters in a row, the title is not an English word? What about Szczecin, say, szcz is not an allowed consonant combination in English, is that therefore a bad title? Stefán Ingi 15:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I have no problem with Vossstrasse, because it is not English and therefore the sss does not matter. Charles 20:43, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: Regardless of one's opinions of the spelling of the street's name (and we all seem to have pretty strong opinions), cut and paste moves are not the way to make changes. By all means request a move to a particular title, but don't simply cut and paste; that is the worst option. --Stemonitis 12:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irresponsible moves 

message: #Support. Shilkanni 16:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Propose name remains at  Voss-strasse 

message: #Support Stemonitis 13:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Propose move to  Voßstraße 

message: #Support Matthead 14:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Propose move to Voßstrasse 

message: #Support. Shilkanni 16:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Propose move to Vossstrasse 

message: #Support. Shilkanni 16:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Propose move to Voss-Strasse 

message: #Support. User:Angr 07:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Just delete the article, the street isn't notable enough for Wikipedia anyway

message: Rules about letters in the "English alphabet" are irrelevant to articles named in German, such as this one. The only correct spelling is therefore the correct German spelling, with ß, following the rules laid down in the German spelling reform of 1996. Stemonitis 13:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What does articles like Friedrichstraße mean? Here  you moved Wilhelmstraße to Wilhelmstrasse and here  you moved Straße des 17. Juni to Strasse des 17 Juni. Of couse, in both cases this was a significant rewrite. Stefán Ingi 14:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Better terminate that ü by using the Austrian cyborg's quote, Ich komme wieder! --Matthead 15:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Gute Nacht, auf Widersehen. Stefán Ingi 14:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Adam, I noticed that you removed the  template that I'd placed on the page, saying that the info on the page was "common knowledge".  Can you prove this?  Can you point to any English-language books or articles about the street, to prove its notability?  --Elonka 23:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please don't take it personally.  I think the article reads well, it is laid out in an interesting way, and your work is appreciated.  But, though the article is interesting, it's not appropriate for Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a travel guide.  This issue of whether there should be an article for every street is actually something that's already been discussed extensively.  It's agreed that it's appropriate to have a Wikipedia article on every city, but in terms of streets, the general consensus (at least, as I read it), is that only a very few streets should have articles, and only if the street is extremely famous (such as Broadway or the Champs Elysees). To read these previous discussions for yourself, try checking here Wikipedia:Deletion_policy/Roads_and_streets.  Something else I would like to suggest as well, is that you may wish to consider adding your street information to Wikitravel, where I'm sure that your efforts and energy would be most welcome. --Elonka 05:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: By the standards of Wikipedia:Notability (and my own), a street becomes notable not by where it is, but by what is written about it.  Yes, the Champs Elysees is a strip of asphalt, but it's also been written about, sung about, been the subject of paintings by famous artists, and had many other outside references to it.  That is what makes it notable.  To my knowledge, the Voss-strasse's main claim to fame is that it's near some tourist attractions, and had some government offices built along it at one point.  As such, it may be worth a paragraph in the articles of one of those attractions (or maybe the biography of the person that the street is named after), but I still don't think that the subject is worthy of its own article on Wikipedia.  If, however, you can point to a book about the street, a song about the street, or a reference to the street in a famous painting or play or some other major work, that might change my mind. --Elonka 17:10, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: I don't know what all the fuss is about. This is the English section of wikipedia and therefore the rules of English should prevail. Wikipedia:Naming conventions states it perfectly in the opening nutshell: "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." Sorry, but Voßstraße, Voßstrasse, and Vossstrasse do not fit the policy aforementioned. "ß" is not an English character and therefore should not be found in any English article title, and this is an English article about a German street. Blur said, "so I do not see why you should force English rules on it". That is funny because this isn't the German wikipedia, it is the English wikipedia and English has its own rules and we should follow them. German spelling rules are irrelevant here. So, i ask blur, why should german rules be forced on English? Look, the naming convention is quite clear, to use titles that are familar to the average speaker of English. Most english speakers don't know what "ß" is or even how to pronounce it. Simply, we shouldn't be using non English characters in titles in English wikipedia. If you want to use "ß", then go to the German wikipedia and fill your boots. Masterhatch 18:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Long question, short answer: This is the English Wikipedia, but Voßstraße is a German word, thus my opinion that it should be written using German ortography, not English one. And, furthermore, I dare to say that most English readers have no idea how to pronounce the German word Voßstraße whether it is written using the ß or the ss. Sorry if that was disdainful. Blur4760 18:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You still didn't answer my very important question: why should german rules be forced on English in an English encyclopaedia? you don't see English rules being forced on the german seciton of wikipedia, now do you? Look, it is simple, this is the enlish language section of wikipedia, so let's stick with English, not german. "Voßstraße" is not an english word and it contains characters that are foreign to English. So, i say to you, if you insist on using "ß" in English titles, then may i suggest that you stick to editing on the german version of wikipeida where they gladly accept those characters. (sorry if that was disdainful) Masterhatch 22:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Please read WP:UE; also, if the German wikipedia can (and I think should) use de:Vereinigte Staaten and de:Elsass, why not? They don't use de:Pennsylvanien - I think they should. Septentrionalis 22:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I thought I did answer that. I don't want to force German rules on English, only on words that are German. Voßstraße (or, to a much lesser amount, Vossstrasse) are German words, Voss-strasse absolutely not, Voss-Strasse may be a German word, but not the name of the street, so either translate the name of the street (which is not wished for), or spell it correctly, don't make up ways of writing a German word. Blur4760 05:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: why would you want to force German words on English? That is the exact reason why i am so against nonEnglish characters being used. All over wikipedia, i see people trying to force their native language onto English and telling me that English is spelling it wrong. Sorry, but English is English and it isn't spelt wrong in English. English has its quirks, but it is still English. The naming convention is quite clear about using the form most commonly found in English (not german) and the form that is most recognisable to the average English speaker. German words and characters are obviously not English and if their is an Engilsh equivellant, then it should be used 100% of the time. If you don't like it, go edit the german language section of wikipedia and stop forcing german words where there are english equivellants. Masterhatch 07:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The commonest spelling (in English) is not the current "Voss-strasse". It's very difficult to get an accurate count from a web search, because the search engines know to convert "ß" to "ss" and vice versa, but I'm pretty sure that Voss-strasse is not top of the list. If someone can get some decent figures, I'm sure we'd all be interested to hear them. --Stemonitis 07:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.
No word containing an "ß" character is going to be "second nature" to the majority of English speaking people. --Philip Baird Shearer 21:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: True, but neither will a word starting with a 'v' which wants you to pronounce itself with an [f]. Haukur 21:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Obviously there are foreign words in English. In fact, most of English is based on foreign words! My point is, English has developed a style that does not include foreign characters most of the time. and the ß is a foreign character that English has not adopted. Since English has not adopted it, and the only places i have ever seen that are here on wikipedia and in Germany and Austria when i visited there. I didn't even see any in Switzerland. My point is, I never see that ß here in Canada anywhere and since the naming convention is quite clear on the matter, ß should not appear in article titles. There is a standard set of rules when translating South Korean to English for place names. I consider this ß just as foreign of a character as ㅃ. I wouldn't expect to see ㅃ in an article title any more than i would expect to see ß in an article title. When ㅃ is translated into English, bb is used. bb does not make the same sound as ㅃ, but it is close enough. I am not familiar with German, but i bet that the English ss sound is not the same as the ß german sound. My point is, there seems to be a way to translate ß into English and that way seems to be ss. Whether this makes Germans happy or not doesn't really matter because this is English and we have our 26 letters and we aren't asking for any more. Masterhatch 18:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I suppose this will not win any big support, but I'd like to see it as Vossstraße; "-straße" is known among people with only the slightest acquaintance with German, whereas "Voß" isn't.   Chonak 20:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: All the fuss

message: Hey, Matthead, you were one second faster than me about the origin of the name, Congratulations. Anyway, I'm sorry about deleting the reference about :de:Sophie Marie Gräfin von Voss, but since she died almost 60 years before the street was built, I didn't see any connection with the name. Blur4760 18:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No prob, I linked her article just to provide a first step for further research, and to show that there was a family by that name. Next was a weird experience courtesy of Google  --Matthead 21:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A stated before, Voß and Voss are names, some bear the name with ß, others with ss, and is is IMHO anything but helpful to remove that difference intentionally. I met persons who had strong feelings on the proper spelling of their name, e.g. persons named Schaefer that did not want to be spelt like the more common Schäfer carr. --Matthead 17:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of the name 

message: At Wikipedia:German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board/Umlaut and ß I've been putting together some examples of how English language publications deal with ß and umlauts. Would anyone like to contribute? Discussions using reason and argument have so far only ended in stalemates, and I am hoping that if we can agree on how the matter is usually dealt with in printed English it might give us some clues on how to do so at Wikipedia. Saint|swithin 11:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've looked through my bookshelves and so far none of the English language books I have use the ß: all of them replace it with "ss", as do the newspapers I read, so the page mentioned above now has a strong anti-ß bias. All those in favour of ß please look on your bookshelves and contribute to Wikipedia:German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board/Umlaut and ß to even things out a bit! Saint|swithin 07:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Saintswithin has not voted on this subject, as she would like to avoid preconceptions. She compiles a list of how umlauts and ß are used in English language publications (e.g. academic books) to try to avoid arguments based on preconceptions. On discovering that the ß is apparently not used at all, she does not want to hurt the feelings of those who have voted for the ß, so writes a note here in a friendly way, suggesting that they contribute to the list: one aim of this is to kindly point out that there is little support for their belief. She suggests that people put examples on the "Umlaut and ß" page. This suggestion also applies to User:Adam Carr. Saint|swithin 09:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Saintswithin agrees heartily with the message behind Adam's argument that it would be a good idea to take well-written books as an example for Wikipedia. She will forgive Adam his somewhat brusque style, as despite her wish to avoid preconceptions, Adam looks a bit like her husband. She intends to write entirely in the third person in future, rather like a talk in the House of Commons, and would like to mention, as a clue to her choice of name, that it is her birthday on Saturday. Saint|swithin 10:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Umlaut and ß sources

message: I hope everyone is pleased with themselves for wasting so much of their time and mine on this stupid argument, for no outcome whatever, as could have been predicted from the start. I suggest everyone go and write one original article to redeem themselves. Adam 05:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: In summary

message: In order to seek a formal determination that Wikipedia articles should not include a "ß", you need to ensure that it's written up on a "guideline" page.  To get something to guideline status, you start with a "proposed guideline" page.
I'd recommend that you start by reading WP:UE, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (standard letters with diacritics), and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (thorn), along with their associated talk pages. The closest to what you want to do, I think, is the "thorn" discussion, which was a proposal that never made it as far as official guideline status. If you still want to take on the project though, I would read the "thorn" page carefully, including its talk page, try to analyze what they did and didn't do right, and then create a Naming conventions page as a "proposed policy", like Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ß) (or does the character have another "English" name?), and include some of the data from Wikipedia:German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board/Umlaut and ß.  Once the wording of the proposed guideline is nailed down, you'd want to get community consensus to make it a "formal" guideline.  The next step past that is policy, but I think that formal guideline status would probably be sufficient. --Elonka 19:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, we haven't had a proposed policy for outlawing Þ for almost a week now, , it was sorely missed. Stefán Ingi 00:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the problem at this page (and no other pages have been moved recently to my knowledge) is based on the hyphen, not the ß, a policy on ß seems not to be the best solution. Perhaps a policy decision on triple letters and their (un-)acceptability would be more relevant. All parties have declared their acceptance of the title Vossstrasse. --Stemonitis 09:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

text: That's a matter for a separate discussion. Again, there seems to be some sort of consensus regarding the hyphen-followed-by-lowercase-strasse issue, because lowercase "strasse" is wrong. FWIW, in German triple letters have only been allowed since the controversial 1996 reform. If there's an objection to that, then  "Voss-Strasse" (hyphen and uppercase S) or "Voss Strasse" (separate words, uppercase) have precedents in German usage, though this particular street is written together.  ProhibitOnions  (T) 10:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure why Adam thinks that calling someones name a monstrosity will make me happy. If Björn were still alive I would have removed this comment citing WP:LIVING but for some reason the policy on Wikipedia does not give the same respect to dead people. Stefán Ingi 10:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you know what "FWIW" means, Adam?  ProhibitOnions  (T) 11:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

text: In English, German or Icelandic? Adam 11:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Potential policy change

message: Archive 1 shows a no-consensus naming poll on suggested alternatives to the Voss-strasse name then used, closed 13 July 2006.  So why was this article subsequently moved by User:ProhibitOnions, twice on 10 September 2006 eventually ending up at [[Voßstraße], reverted by User:Rebecca early on 11 Sep (UTC) to Voss-strasse, then moved again by User:ProhibitOnions on 21 September to Vossstrasse?
The brief discussion, without notice to interested parties through WP:RM, in the discussion above is not sufficient to override the previous lack of consensus after extended discussion. Gene Nygaard 01:54, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As near as I can tell, the predominant usage of the term in English-language sources, is "Vossstrasse". This corresponds with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). --Elonka 09:24, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the more common English usages haven't even been considered here, either in the archived discussion or since.  And ProhibitOnions makes a silly claim above about Voss-Strasse being original research; in fact, that particular form is more likely to be seen in German language usage than in English-language usage, though it is seen in the latter.  But where is the consideration of, and where are the redirects from, the common English-language forms? Why are Voss Strasse, Voss strasse, Voss street, and Voss Street still all redlinks?  The unhyphenated form is more common in English.  The variations in capitalization of street/strasse may be in part a national varieties of English issue; there certainly are differences in how common capitalization is, both geographically and chronologically.  Gene Nygaard 10:27, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I said that "Voss-strasse" was not right, and possibly OR. If you read what I wrote, I mentioned the hyphenated version ("Voss-Strasse") as a secondary non-ß choice only if "Strasse" is in uppercase. You will not see "-strasse" (lowercase) in German, a language in which nouns are always capitalized. Silly me.  ProhibitOnions  (T) 11:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Perhaps in large part.  But there is one huge, significant difference—Friedrichstrasse is never written with a triple s.  And triple letters in one word definitely are avoided in English usage.  Gene Nygaard 10:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

text: That little word "an" speaks volumes, doesn't it?  Gene Nygaard 22:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

text: No, Adam, it's also the large number of people whose opinions are different from yours that prevent that step being taken. There is no consensus in either direction: that's why the issue keeps cropping up. --Stemonitis 09:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, no, Adam is absolutely right; of course all people who disagree with him, like me and Angr, must be complete and utter idiots out of principle. Oh, how could we ever not notice our own ignorance. </sarcasm> —Nightstallion (?) 19:41, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh, I am not worthy. </sarcasm> —Nightstallion (?) 20:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Far be it from me to dispel such displays of true Socialist modesty; but Adam is right; we did have a poll on this, which can be found in the archives, and the Germanist position did not prevail. I have moved back accordingly. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe the Germanist position did not prevail because others believed the usuage in Adam 01:02, 30 October 2006(UTC) to be neither sarcastic nor stupid, but correct. Barliner 15:15, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent move, still against consensus, should be reverted

message: I am sorely tempted to put  on this article. I live in Berlin and can assure all readers that there is no street called "Vossstrasse" here. There is a street called Voßstraße, however, but for some reason we're not allowed to have an article about it. The fact that there is a poll in the archive indicating a lack of consensus to move this article to the correct spelling of this name is irrelevant. Polls are evil, and at Wikipedia, accuracy takes precedence over ochlocracy. —Angr 07:53, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you. The recent renaming is an embarrassment. -- Evertype·✆ 12:42, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The poll was about a year ago, thus the Frankensteinish assembly of letters was on public display long enough. Let's go ahead and make the request to move the article to the name which is on display on the actual signs in the street, Voßstraße. Are there some humor archives on Wiki where the odd construct "sss" can be mentioned? -- Matthead discuß!     O       13:44, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Sure, let's move it back. Haukur 13:47, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad to do so. ProhibitOnions (T) 15:15, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Content updated to Voßstraße, too. -- Matthead discuß!     O       15:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, that was fast! ProhibitOnions (T) 15:35, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Same for half a dozen redirects. Seems all articles had used Voßstraße anyway. -- Matthead discuß!     O       15:38, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Was there some RM discussion that I missed?  The article should be at Vossstrasse, per the majority of English-language sources. --Elonka 19:58, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not that I know of, but my recent additions of web links might be of interest to you. Voßstraße is used in English-language sources by native speakers of English like Iain Boyd Whyte is professor of architectural history at the University of Edinburgh (okay, so he is probably a Scotsman). Being exposed to the odd Umlaut (diacritic) now and then may be appreciated by some of those who "would like to be able to speak many more languages". -- Matthead discuß!     O       02:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There was no consensus for such a clearly controversial move.  I recommend that the article be moved back to Vossstrasse, and that proper WP:RM procedures be followed. --Elonka 17:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And it has been, twice now. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:18, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hoax