Talk:Karagiozis

message: "Barba Yorgos (Uncle George), he represents the original Greek from the mountains, uncontaminated by urban trends; he is usually on some business related visit in the lowlands, he is a Vlach from Rumeli in mainland Greece." I think this is a contradiction. --91.148.159.4 23:11, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It means 'vlaxos' as in the Greek ethnic slur Pictureuploader 23:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I don't know anything about this, but the term "ethnic slur" suggests referring to an ethnicity. If vlachos is sometimes used as a synonym of a "primitive peasant from the mountains" or something like that, then that meaning should be mentioned in the Vlach article that Karagiozis links to, and the Karagiozis article should make it clear that that's the relevant meaning of the word in this case. I'm not doing it myself now, not out of laziness, but because I don't know if that is the case in the first place. --91.148.159.4 12:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek or Vlach? 

message: "Karagiozis seems to have come to mainland Greece, probably from Asia Minor (Anatolia) in the 19th century, during Ottoman rule. Karagiozis was hellenized in Patras, Greece in the end of 19th century by Dimitrios Sardounis alias Mimaros, who is considered the founder of modern Greek shadow theater."
Why not just say that its origin is ottoman/turkish? It is clearly an adaptation from Karagöz and Hacivat that already existed in the 14th century, long before the greeks adapted it. These names are obviously of islamic and turkish origin. Haci is an islamic honorific, Avat is a turkish name and Karagöz translates to black eyes (means sneaky, violent). Why not openly say then that it is turkish instead of building these strange sentence constructions that say exactly that, without actually saying it? There is no shame by the way in adapting from other cultures. The shame lies in lying about it and being dishonest. The turks themselves also adapted the concept of shadowplay from asia. As the article says, shadowplays originated in indonesia/india/china. 
The ottomans had a large empire and brought many things from various regions in contact with the other regions and by doing this they created new knowledge and new products by fusion. Also, like the greek/ottoman cuisine, many cultural aspects of the subject peoples blossomed under ottoman rule. This nationalistic fight of the former ottoman subject peoples that this or that food/music/instrument is theirs is ridiculous. Greeks and various other peoples lived under ottoman rule for at least 600 years and were undeniably affected. Take for example the greek cuisine. Many ingredients that are now used today and are part of the greek cuisine were not known to the greeks prior to the ottoman era. Ingredients such as coffee (yemen,arabia), eggplants (india, central asia) etc were introduced by the ottomans from other regions. Other ingredients such as peppers, tomatoes, potatoes etc which came from america after it was discovered by columbus were introduced while greece was part of the ottoman empire and because of that it is ottoman cuisine, not greek cuisine. These dishes originated in the ottoman empire during ottoman reign. Pure greek cuisine is what the greeks knew in ancient greece, the byzantine empire and what they create now after their independence. Same goes with a lot of other aspects of greek or other former ottoman subject people's culture. All this denial of ottoman influence and culture is a sign of turcophobia. They just want to portray turks as a barbaric people which contributed nothing to the world but only destroyed and stole. Ibrahim4048 (talk) 00:10, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin 

message: This article has a lot of duplicate content. Since the origin is indisputably Turkish, I propose this article to be merged to Karagöz and Hacivat. --Mttll (talk) 15:04, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish Karagöz 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061128062713/http://www.farses.poulametrela.com/arxeia52/karagiozis.mp3 to http://farses.poulametrela.com/arxeia52/karagiozis.mp3
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110721082919/http://www.retromaniax.gr/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=613&d=1219947763 to http://www.retromaniax.gr/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=613&d=1219947763
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130926202145/http://www.karagkiozis.gr/ to http://www.karagkiozis.gr/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050212151009/http://www.kostasmakris.gr/ to http://www.kostasmakris.gr/
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thread_title:  External links modified