Talk:Korean pride

message: The article Korean pride is being edited in conjunction with Talk:Korean nationalism, keeping an eye on avoiding content overlap and maintaining two distinct article identities, as merging was an idea oft suggested during Korean pride 's Votes for Deletion (VFD) discussion. (VFD discussion result was: no consensus) --Yonghokim 23:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

message: I think what you have is good and includes a lot of info, but why the "an ethos shared by male youth"? Let's not forget that amongst the millions of soccer fans at the 2002 World Cup, there were quite a lot of women, who I doubt were really soccer fans but they were really jazzed about supporting the national team. --Atrahasis 12:21, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think women are not included in a discourse about national interests. I'd see korean women joining the cheer during the Word Cup as a manifestation of k-pride (the racial one, as we're narrowing our definition) and not k-nationalism. Because basically there was nothing rational about the gains/benefits of the World Cup, as opposed to all the profit that koreans were speculating about over the internet these past weeeks that could be made out of Hwang Woo Suk. On a loosely related note, korean feminists are keenly opposed to nationalism, even more so than against anarcho-syndicalism or leftists who reduce everything to capitalism. Of course, women != feminism, so that's just a reference. --Yonghokim 20:51, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I forgot to clarify that that fourth (and last) paragraph of the intro secion in the article is my attempt to establish a theoretical link between KN and KP. So I'm pretty much talking about KN. Hence, the "male youth" qualifier. --Yonghokim 23:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gender 

message: Is it a stretch to say that "korean pride" is a sentiment, whereas "korean nationalism" is a calculation? --Yonghokim 19:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would say that if k pride can be defined as mostly racial pride, it can serve to fuel nationalism. --Atrahasis 12:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to better express relationship with [[Korean nationalism]]

message: This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Splashtalk 20:30, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That was a most logical decision, and if everyone waits a while we'll all see how this topic will deepen understanding of Korea and Korea-related incidents. --Atrahasis 13:10, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Articles for Deletion debate

message: I'm building here a temporary reservoir of sources and references that may be used either on Korean pride or Korean nationalism. Feel free to contribute --Yonghokim 11:03, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Way to go! --Atrahasis 11:21, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  database of initial sources and reference  

message: There's way too many subsections in #Basis, and it makes the article rather ugly. These sections are all extremely short, and they are not meant to be lengthened any longer, since they can all point to their appropriate subject articles in the form of "More at X".
The meat of KP is #factors-#ideology-#examples. Currently, it's arranged like this:
* 1.1 History
* 1.2 Mythological origins
* 1.3 History of resistance
* 1.4 Religio-political historic mission
* 1.5 Ethics
* 1.6 Sports Heroes
* 1.7 Culture
* 1.8 Entertainment and Pop Culture
* 1.9 Cuisine
* 1.10 Science and Technology
* 1.11 Economy
And I would like to arrange it like it was before, being
# History: length, origins, resistance
# destiny: Park Jung Hee, religion, 
# culture: ethics, culture, cuisine, pop culture, sports heroes
# technology and economy: scitech, economy
and the particular styling I'd favor would be
 === History ===
 ; LEngth : bla bla
 ; Origins : bla bla
 
 === next section ===
 repeat
=== History ===
; LEngth : bla bla
; Origins : bla bla
=== next section ===
repeat
All of this would make #Basis look shorter and make the reader focus on what's really important, which is in #2-#4
Is this ok? --Yonghokim 17:51, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I say you're doing a fine job, this article does need a simpler organization to make it more digestible. --Atrahasis 18:53, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'll take that for a yes --Yonghokim 21:01, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shortening the section [[Korean pride#Basis for Korean Pride]] 

message: repeat
</div>
All of this would make #Basis look shorter and make the reader focus on what's really important, which is in #2-#4
Is this ok? --Yonghokim 17:51, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I say you're doing a fine job, this article does need a simpler organization to make it more digestible. --Atrahasis 18:53, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'll take that for a yes --Yonghokim 21:01, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  next section 

message: "This incident [regarding the Hangul word processing software] has been cited as probably the first time that an entire nation, from the central government to corporations to private citizens, combined forces to save a local industry."
Really?
=== Zeppelin Airship Company in Germany & Hangul Software ===
When the Zeppelin Company in Germany crashed its pioneering rigid Airship circa 1910, and didn't have the money to continue, a large number of German citizens from children to adults sent money to the company to keep it going, relying on the German Post Office to deliver the money without the letters being properly addressed, which is otherwise very un-Germanic.
The Zeppelin and Hangul examples are roughly comparible.
Tabletop 11:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fascinating! Another example of national pride producing ultra-organization. One may even draw parallels between the kind of racial pride the Germans felt that led to Naziism and the kind of racial pride in general (even in korea) that will produce this kind of effect. Note that in both cases the ultra-organization was not a very capitalistic kind of thing to do, which would have been to let weak companies die, but rather something very lefty that involved personal donation and/or sacrifice, which may point out that such organization is possible in only essentially mono-racial "extedned family" societies where people feel that they are all more or less kin. --Atrahasis 11:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hangul story equivalents 

message: When the Zeppelin Company in Germany crashed its pioneering rigid Airship circa 1910, and didn't have the money to continue, a large number of German citizens from children to adults sent money to the company to keep it going, relying on the German Post Office to deliver the money without the letters being properly addressed, which is otherwise very un-Germanic.
The Zeppelin and Hangul examples are roughly comparible.
Tabletop 11:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fascinating! Another example of national pride producing ultra-organization. One may even draw parallels between the kind of racial pride the Germans felt that led to Naziism and the kind of racial pride in general (even in korea) that will produce this kind of effect. Note that in both cases the ultra-organization was not a very capitalistic kind of thing to do, which would have been to let weak companies die, but rather something very lefty that involved personal donation and/or sacrifice, which may point out that such organization is possible in only essentially mono-racial "extedned family" societies where people feel that they are all more or less kin. --Atrahasis 11:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zeppelin Airship Company in Germany & Hangul Software 

message: Just before WWI, the Ottoman Empire (what is now Turkey) was financing two warships by public subscription, the warships to be built in Britain. People contributed their savings or jewellery. WWI broke out before the ships were complete, and the British commandeered the ships, as was their right, though this act was probably unwise as it contributed to Turkey entering the war on the other side.
Tabletop 04:08, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish warships & Hangul Software 

message: Jimbo Wales, I totally realize it's your encyclopedia. But have you considered that your personal perception that all of that valid info was "all imaginary and random" was because you are not from that particular cultural background? In contrast, editors here who are from that background had agreed on the content of the article and were on their way to researching it further. I assure you it is real to us, and frankly I can't help but be a little shocked and a tad offended at your cultural insensitivity. You yourself made up the rule that this place should not be a beauracracy and that the sensible and reasonable thing should be done. We were on the way to making it more "real" to the unitiated or unfamiliar, so was it sensible for you to claim it was all phoney and delete it all? --Atrahasis 03:09, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi.  User:Jimbo Wales was quite right to remove that essay.  It doesn't matter at all what any Wikipedia editors thinks is true.  What matters is Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability.  Please see Wikipedia:Citing sources for advice on how to demonstrate information that you would like to add to Wikipedia.  Thanks for understanding.  Jkelly 23:22, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well then, I guess it was our mistake for trying to write a good in-depth article for a place that strives to be a very general reference. --Atrahasis 23:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jimbo, your attention please