Talk:Kingdom of the Isles

message: I hope the list gets restored in an accurate form, soon. Srnec (talk) 00:12, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Me too. I've I sit down for a few hours some day soon I can get put a more accurate list up for the early period. Atm I don't have the resources to fully cover the earlier ones. The list as it was was just historical fiction temper by one or two confirm-able realities. 22:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There's some comments on people associated with the Isle of Man in Molly Miller's "Hiberni reversuri", but so far as I can see it's all surmise (for the early Christian period) or sagaesque (for the Viking Age) until we get to the Haraldssons, if not later. The list that was here was, transcription errors apart, the same as The Handbook of British Chronology from "Ketil Flatnose" onwards. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 23:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  That volume 9 of the New History of Ireland has a list ... but it's sadly in the section not included in Google books. Please tell me btw that the Handbook of British Chronology doesn't list "Sven Kennethson" ...  Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:06, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fortunately it does not. I'm sure Fergananim must have a copy of the New History, volume 9, so the next time he pops up we can point him over here. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 00:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here's the online text. Maybe it'll appear for you (not sure how it works with exclusions). Well, though it is prolly weak on stuff from the Norse-Gaelic world of that era ... the HBC is respectable enough to use as a starter ... just without the silly numbering. The info can be verified thereafter from more respectable sources if Fergananim is gone for a while. The earliest kings ... not sure what to make of them. Definitely the list derives in part from misusing the Harlein genealogies à la Strathclyde, but there are other not in that. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually I logged out of my account and got it to display p. 465 & p. 467; p. 466, the meatiest part, is gone. Funnily enough though, it says it is based on the Handbook, so that is kinda pointless! Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Well, p. 466 is no goldmine either. Ketil and Harald Fairhair, rule from Dublin and the Haraldssons, which is pretty much the same stuff. The list proper starts with Echmarcach. Perhaps we should too. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 01:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  So you can view it! Frigg. I'll need to open 5 or 6 google accounts so I can read all those books. I just assumed btw that p. 466 was the a goldmine because ... well ... the grass is always greener on the other side. You've got a better handle on the Norse-Gaelic stuff than I do ... if Echmarcach is the first attestable king, then go with that. That kinda ties in with the Sellar article (- 3 titles persons) ... praised by Woolf as the most scholarly article available on the subject of the kings of the isles in this period. I was working out at one point a list derived from that, but Sellar is interested in the Isles rather than the events in Man. For the later kings you've got more than just obits and a few mentions. The Manx chronicle details comings and goings, ejections and restorations, which was putting me off the topic.  All those copious notes on who was ruling in Man in what year according to what source, whether they also ruled the northern parts, etc, etc ... I was waiting until I got around to purchasing McDonald's new book, which given the price will be ages yet! :( Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 02:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I just redirected King of the Isles here. But reading your comments, it seems like it should be separate. I just did Gofraid Donn, and noticed Sellar calls him 'King of the Isles'. He ruled in the Hebrides for a very short time, while his uncle Olaf the Black ruled Man. I don't know how Gofraid fits into this list. Or someone like Uspak.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:58, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of list

message: [Restored from previous version of this page - history is at Talk:Kingdom of Man and the Isles]
What are the sources that Orkney and Shetland were ever a part of this kingdom? I have never seen that mentioned anywhere.--Barend (talk) 21:46, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I started to clean up the article a while ago and missed that. No, they weren't. DinDraithou (talk) 22:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. I read a pretty good book on this a few years ago - I think it was R. Andrew McDonald, "The Kingdom of the Isles". Don't have it now though--Barend (talk) 19:00, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Orkney and Shetland?

message: Before any more work is done here, editors need to know that most of what exists in this article, including much of the table contents, is going to get thrown out. The sources currently being used are no good. I don't have the time right now, but eventually I or someone will come along with the annals and modern scholarly literature. DinDraithou (talk) 15:34, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The table is a nice addition and you're definitely improving the article. I just wanted to stop you before Gregory, who I haven't seen myself, took over. For the annals and other sources see CELT and also . The annals are incredibly tedious and take months to get familiar with. The best of us around here barely know the Kingdom of Dublin from start to finish well and "Mann and the Isles" has a much more complex history. No single one of us, and definitely not me, understands it perfectly. Since you've gotten interested, we have lots of scholarly literature you can use. Some time after the holidays we'll get a package of material to you. I'm leaving myself a note on my page to do so. DinDraithou (talk) 18:01, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Primary sources 

message: Well it's now 2 years, 11 months and 6 days since the original discussion above started. The article is now somewhat longer, although whether it is really closer to the truth is a matter for debate.
1) The real problem with the sources is not dates and names - although they are perplexing enough, it is the almost total lack of information about the geography of the islands displayed by the writers, especially of the Irish chronicles. Given their proximity and the connection to Dalriada it is baffling. At times one suspect that by "the Isles" they mean simply the Isle of Man and its outliers. There are almost no specifics at all until the late 12th century.
2) The contrasting views of the sources make life difficult and I have attempted to address some of these in the "notes"
3) Given the many choices of names (see e.g. Amlaíb Cuarán) I have tried to:
:a) Use Gregory's names as a first choice as he is the only author I have come across so far who attempts anything resembling an actual listing, and 
:b) avoid repeating the same forenames too often - not too easy with the Ui Imair.
4) Arguably the article is too long and could be split into earlier and later. Arguably the title is incorrect. Very few of the rulers had the style "King of Mann and the Isles" and the Manx kings that did were generally not the rulers of the entire territory but it is at least convenient to use the term . "Rulers of the Suðreyjar" might be more accurate, but this a much less common name. 
5) A lot of tweaks needed but I don't think there is any point in sorting out the details until it becomes clear the general outline is acceptable.
6) Some details.
:It is tempting to imagine Ui Imair dynasts as ruling in the late ninth, early tenth centuries such as Sihtric Cáech or Ragnall ua Ímair but I have come across no evidence of this so far.
:Echmarcach mac Ragnaill is a pest. I am tempted to move him to the rulers of Mann section and leave a gap but who knows really?
:The Lochlain hypothesis debate is intriguing. I understand why some authors such as Barrett are sceptical about the meanings of the actual word(s). However, given that many modern-day sailors equipped with GPS and access to Met Office reports avoid the Pentland Firth and the North Channel it is not clear to me how tenth century Norwegian sailors would cross 600 kms of sea from Orkney to Mann (including some of the most dangerous tidal races in the world) without having well guarded and permanently manned intermediate bases, whatever the actual territory was called. Surviving place names may hint at this, but I have avoided reference to that in an already crowded article full of caveats.
:The intention is that "Mann" is the kingdom and "Man" is the island, although they are sometimes interchangeable. Ben MacDui 14:59, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you have created a masterpiece and can't express how impressed I am. I've read it through but will need to do so a few more times before I can say anything else. Also it's amazing how quickly you were able to do this! Etchingham has a new paper on Laithlinn/Lochlainn which I forgot to send you and have not yet read myself, but will do so now. DinDraithou (talk) 22:06, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done MacDui. You can tell lot of effort went into this. Now I feel more like fiddling with articles on the Isles! That reminds me, I came across this last week, some stuff on the Norse-Gaelic Hebrides, and place names . Not sure if other have used these as sources or looked at them. I noticed you didn't use this , it should be ok as a reference, I've seen it mentioned in a couple recent works. Google Books has Handbook of British chronology which gives a list of rulers. It has Godred Donn's son Harald as the ruler for a little while.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 10:18, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank-you both. I haven't seen the sources above and I'll take a look asap. When I began I wondered where the title would lead, but I think its clear that the Deacon is right (see above) in that the " 'King of Mann and the Isles' was just a title used by some of the late kings of Man". I don't want to start too many extra hares running, but there are lots of pages that link to this article that use the idea of the 'Kingdom of Mann and the Isles' in a much broader context and I sense this is essentially a Wikipedia approach (in the absence of any other target page) rather than one that is current use amongst scholars. There are also a few extra contenders for inclusion. I see that Dubhghall mac Ruaidhri is apparently a King and that Gofraid Donn should be at least mentioned in despatches. Ben MacDui 19:50, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a superior discussion of the ancestry of the kings of Man, who almost certainly were descended from the Uí Ímair in some manner. It is the work of an independent scholar/genealogist but one who is published elsewhere (click his name on the left). I'm unable to tell what is his own but the possibility that instead of the direct Dublin line it could be the Isles-Limerick-Dublin line is attractive. Both are ultimately (most likely) descendants of Sitric Cáech. We really need to get a look at those Welsh Norse pedigrees. DinDraithou (talk) 18:48, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I came across this in search of the red-linked Godred Sitricson. It is certainly useful. Ben MacDui 13:37, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overhaul 

message: There is, I think, an alternate and better way to display what is going on. Unfortunately it is an exercise in OR. If we accept:
:a) That the earls of Orkney were in place from an early date, but that this only applies to the "Northern Isles"  i.e. the Hebrides north of Ardnamurchan. 
:b) The Ui Imair hegemony is also partially accepted. This dynasty is effectively the ruler of Mann certainly, and probably Anglesay and Rathlin plus (from time to time) some of the Islands of the Clyde and the southern Hebrides, more or less continuously.
:c) There is a zone of conflict or perhaps changing influence with a variable boundary somewhere in the Ardnamurchan area.
:d) Either with Godred Crovan, whose origins may well have been "Norse" rather than Ui Imar, or after Magnus's expedition of 1098, the short-lived genuine kingdom of Mann and the Isles emerges which includes the whole shebang.
We have the table below. 
This may explain the higher number of Norse place names in the northern Hebrides and the lack of Hebridean place names in the Irish annals. It also avoids silly overlapping dynasties in the ruler lists for the late 10th and the 11th century and deals with the Echmarcach mac Ragnaill problem. Ben MacDui 08:51, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: An alternative table

message: [Restored from previous version of this page - history is at Talk:Kingdom of Man and the Isles]
I think the title "Kingdom of Mann and the Isles" should be kept as a redirect to Kings of Mann and the Isles (as it is currently titled). The article here adds little except a template, Infobox Former Country and a few "see also"s and there is very little in the way of information available about the nature of the Kingdom itself. The only purpose of keeping it would be if the short Geography section at "Kings" could be expanded in some way here plus a bit of archaeology, but it's hard to see that happening. Ben MacDui 15:44, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely agree. Thanks for doing this and nice points. I couldn't think of how to say it myself. DinDraithou (talk) 18:55, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merger 

message: My sources for Mann are not extensive and there are a number of issues. 
* Does anyone know why Ragnall I Haraldsson aka Ragnald III of the Isle of Man (a redirect) and apparently the brother of Godred II Olafsson aka Godred the Black, is not Ragnall Olafsson, or who the Harald is supposed to be? 
* I have added the tale of Gofraid Donn, shamelessly stealing text from the main article. However, I don't have the quoted source and but I'd appreciate it if someone who does could check this. Ben MacDui 12:40, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The bit about Gofraid that you added is referenced from the Manx chronicle in Anderson's book. The link in the "General references" section shoots you to it on hosted on Archive.org. Page 472: "and they (namely Olaf and Godfrey) divided the kingdom of Man and the islands between them. Olaf obtained Man; and Godfrey set out for the island regions, and was slain in the island that is called Lewis. And after [Godfrey's] death, Olaf [held] the kingdom of Man and of the islands until [his] death." Sellar calls Gofraid a "King of the Isles" in "Hebridean Sea Kings: The Successors of Somerled, 1164-1316". I actually scanned this a long time ago, so I can email it to you, or Din if you're interested.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 10:13, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It might have saved some time if I had said "yes" at the time and wonder if your kind offer is still available. Ben MacDui 18:58, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manx pranks 

message: The Proceedings of the Seventh Symposium of Societas Celtologica Nordica, pp. 13-14 has a comment by Etchingham as follows:
The second poetic reference to Laith- linn, recently publicised, occurs in a verse attached to the Four Masters’ version of the annal-record of a battle in 868 at Cell ua nDaigri—according to Edmund Hogan (1910: 214), Killineer near Drogheda, Co. Louth.
:Dos-fail dar Findabhair find 
:Fiallach grinn dond Laithlind luind 
:As ar chédaibh rímhter Goill 
:Do cath fri rígh nÉtair n-uill"
:There comes over fair Findabair 
:a keen host from fierce Laithlinn 
:the Foreigners are counted in hundreds
:to do battle with the king of great Étar’
He gets excited about the mention of Laithlinn, but (and I accept that I speak neither Norse nor Old Irish) isn't this a possible reference to Harald Fairhair? Ben MacDui 20:51, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That is very interesting. According to my Dictionary of Celtic Mythology (MacKillop), it is a variant of Finnabair/Findabair or "fair eyebrows", beautiful daughter of Queen Medb, and related to the Welsh Guinevere. The article in Wikipedia says "White Fantom", with similar for Guinevere. I haven't found anything yet but it could also have become a placename, or alternatively, and perhaps more likely, we should read this as a Norwegian party set on taking a prey of Irish women. Findabair herself was desired, and Etchingham says this is attached to a battle entry in AFM. But Harald Fairhair should have been alive around then and perhaps of age to go on raids, which is why you've brought this up. Like you my knowledge of Old Irish (any, in my case) is very limited and I can't tell from the construction whether it is possible fair Findabair might be doing the coming over. Harald's epithet is Hárfagri in Old Norse, which conceivably could have appeared in Irish in translation. Also, Findabhair find is like saying Fair Fairwhatever, but this sort of thing might be common in Gaelic verse. DinDraithou (talk) 21:41, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Question about Findabhair 

message: Just came across this recent BBC story when Googling about: Viking ancestry explored on the Isle of Man by researchers. Here's the link to the project's website .--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:53, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kind of interesting, kind of on topic 

message: I've been watching this interesting article for a while, without having much to contribute to it. I see Kingdom of Mann and the Isles was merged to here in January, and really this article is about much more than the Kings of Mann and the Isles. I can't help wondering if Kingdom of Mann and the Isles isn't a better title for the page? My second thought is that this must surely now be better than a Start class article, does anyone disagree with my making it a "C"? Moonraker2 (talk) 21:42, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No objection to either, especially the latter. I don't think it is too far off GA now and was just about to ask for any input into this. Ben MacDui 08:04, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: GA, without question. I threw you a mass of sources I could not make proper sense of myself and you have managed not only to do so but with pictures. From the second you dropped it I knew this was glorious. The title is not so important. DinDraithou (talk) 08:18, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made it up to B-class. Moving it, over the redirect, seems to call for an administrator, so I'll leave that for Ben MacDui to condider doing. Moonraker2 (talk) 11:53, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Will do in the next few days if there are no objections. Ben MacDui 12:15, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done. I fixed a number of redirects that were going to and fro but it would be helpful if someone else could take a  look at the links in case I missed something important. The history of the article that was here prior to January 2011 has been preserved at the redirect Kingdom of Man and the Isles. I will move the small amount of discussion that is still at its talk page here to keep it all in one place. Ben MacDui 08:02, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Two thoughts

message: I asked Malleus Fatuorum for some advice re advancing this article to GA etc. and he replied "I'd definitely spin the embedded tables out into a separate 'list' article; they really intrude on the narrative". Somewhat reluctantly, given the recent stability of the article, I have to agree on the grounds that the embedded tables also diminish the space available for further detail being added about the "kingdom" rather than its rulers. I'll embark on an extraction process in a few days unless I hear contrary opinions. Ben MacDui 19:08, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving list elsewhere 

message: I just noticed that couple weeks ago there were a few things written about the kingdom at http://www.iomtoday.co.im/
*The forgotten kingdom (5 December 2012)
*The Kings of Man: Start of a dynasty (12 December 2012)
*Queens, concubines and ordinary people (19 December 2012)
*The cultural legacy and medieval games (12 January 2013)
*Heroes and villains (12 January 2013)
*The medieval church (12 January 2013)
--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 10:59, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice - I will be taking a break soon and will take a look at these. Ben MacDui 15:05, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The forgotten kingdom reading material 

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thread_title:  External links modified