Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Warhammer 40,000/Notability/Main Character debate space

message: This is an area where the reasons for listing each of the entries in the Warhammer 40,000 article's Notable Figures section. Also, new additions can be proposed here, where their 'adequacy' for main page status can be discussed.
Hopefully this will create greater consensus than we currently have. -- Saberwyn 10:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

message: ===The Emperor===
Pro
* Guiding light of all of Humanity since the 8th millennium. Responsible for the unification of Humanity during the Great Crusade. Created the Imperium as it is known in the 41st millennium. -- Saberwyn
* Most well-known figure for all of Humanity's forces in the game, as the Emperor seems to be linked to all aspects of life, from religion to political to military. -- Saberwyn
Con
*
===Horus===
Pro
* Significant influence on the state of the fictional universe, first as the leader of the Emperor's armies during the Great Crusade, then as the leader of the rebelling forces during the Horus Heresy. -- Saberwyn
Con
*
===The Chaos Gods===
Pro
* The 'evil' entities that caused and motivate the "Galaxy of War" aspect of the 40k universe. -- Saberwyn
Con
* More 'metaphysical entities' than figures in the history of the game and the universe... 'avatars' of human vice. -- Saberwyn
* The content and context of the four Gods' articles (in my opinion) is far better conveyed by the paragraph on Chaos in the 40k article's Background#Setting section (two paragraphs). -- Saberwyn
** I agree. While one might consider them characters, I think more justice could be done with them in the Chaos section. --Falcorian (talk)
Time for a straw poll!
7 days from 21:54, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Current entries

message: Pro
* The 'evil' entities that caused and motivate the "Galaxy of War" aspect of the 40k universe. -- Saberwyn
Con
* More 'metaphysical entities' than figures in the history of the game and the universe... 'avatars' of human vice. -- Saberwyn
* The content and context of the four Gods' articles (in my opinion) is far better conveyed by the paragraph on Chaos in the 40k article's Background#Setting section (two paragraphs). -- Saberwyn
** I agree. While one might consider them characters, I think more justice could be done with them in the Chaos section. --Falcorian (talk)
Time for a straw poll!
7 days from 21:54, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Chaos Gods

message: Pro
* Most significant Ork special character over several editions, along with being one of the first special characters ever. -- Saberwyn
* Leader of two wars against Armageddon, both of which threatened to severely damage the Imperium if not contained. As a part of this, leader of the largest Ork Waagh!s ever seen in the 40,000 universe, and was able to focus their efforts against a single target. -- Saberwyn
* Primary agressor figure of the Armageddon3 worldwide campaign. -- Saberwyn
* Player-character in the Battle for Armageddon boardgame. -- Saberwyn
Con
* Is ultimately, only an individual commander with no cosmic significance in the setting, not qualitatively different than Warmaster Macaroth or Lord Solar Macharius or Ibram Gaunt.  -user:manuelomar2001
* Has had no impact on the formation of the setting as it stands today.  -user:manuelomar2001
** No, Ghazghkull wasn't around during the Horus Heresy, let alone during the formation of the Warp and the Galaxy. But I still stand by the fact that he caused the Third War for Armageddon, which was the sole focus of a worldwide player campaign, and which in turn has affected the recent development of the game (the repercussions of which form the basis of the Epic:Armageddon game, along with providing the storyline for the "... for Armageddon" dulogy by Jonathon Green). He was also the primary 'bad' character of the 'Battle For Armageddon' boardgame, set around the previous invasion he was the leader of, and which led to him becoming one of the two first official special characters for the game. For a mortal fictional character, that looks like a hell of an impact. -- Saberwyn
***  Okay, once *again*, I'm seeing extremly inconsistent guidelines for what's notable and what isn't.   Are we basing it on how much the character has impacted the setting, or on how much the character has impacted the real-life out-of-game gameplay?  That needs to be decided, because right now different characters are getting evaluated on different criteria.  Right now, the only reasons I'm seeing for why Gazz is in this list at all is that he was the title "enemy" commander in a campaign, and that he's a personal favorite of some of the games workshop staffers.   If we're going to put characters in there purely because of the GW press coverage and that they're staff/player favorites, then quite a few other characters need to go on that list as well, most of them Imperial Guard commanders and Space Marine characters.   On the other hand, if we're evaluating it based on what sort of cosmic impact they've had on the background, then he doesn't belong there at all.    If you want to have *both* criteria as reasons to put characters on this list, of course, then we're going to have a really long list, which you don't seem to want.   Either way, though, the special treatment that Gazz is getting to put him on that list needs to stop.   Either the notability criteria need to be amended so that he *and* whatever other characters belong on there can go, or he needs to be removed.  
****In my view, Ghazghkull gets in via being both a long-term special character and the primary aggressor in a worldwide campaign. One or the other wouldn't be enough, but the combination is. You obviously don't agree with this, but as nobody else has objected to his inclusion, it's time to let this one go. Of the five editors who have expressed a view on this subject, four of them explicitly supported Saberwyn's proposal for the main page characters, which I strongly believe makes that a consensus. If anyone else does wish to express a view, then that may change my opinion, but until them I consider this bit of the debate closed. --Pak21 09:26, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka|Ghazghkull]]

message: Pro
* Protegé of Horus, significant figure during the Horus Heresy. Afterwards, took command of the largest force of Chaos Space Marines, and began to launch the Thirteen Black Crusades against the Imperium. Able to unite the majority of the Chaos Space Marines (along with many other forces) for the most recent of these. -- Saberwyn
* Most significant Chaos Space Marines special character over several editions of 40k, and appearance as a special character in Battlefleet Gothic (a game devoid of any other special characters). -- Saberwyn
* Primary agressor figure of the Eye of Terror worldwide campaign. -- Saberwyn
Con
* Subordinate to Horus. Should we have two Black Legion Space Marine Leaders in this list? -- Saberwyn Conceeded per Pak21. -- Saberwyn 09:05, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Abaddon the Despoiler|Abaddon]]

message: ===Eldrad Ulthran===
Proposed: -- Saberwyn 10:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed entries

message: Proposed: -- Saberwyn 10:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Eldrad Ulthran]]

message: Proposed: -- user:Manuelomar2001 8:00pm, 27 March 2006 (CST)
Pro
*In the background of the setting, it has had an enourmous impact on the formation of the 40k universe as it stands now.   The Nightbringer is responsible for the fear of Death that every species save for the Orks has. It the original C'tan that enslaved the Necrons.  The image of the Grim Reaper imprinted on the psyche of nearly every major race is a direct result of the terrors the Nightbringer inflicted long ago.  Games Workshop has made the C'tan themselves central to the overarching metaplot of the game universe as a whole, and they are the oldest God-like beings in the 40k universe.   The C'tan (especially the Nightbringer) are indirectly responsible for the Warp being the chaotic hellish place that it is today, as the Old Ones only designed the psychic races that wrecked the Warp as a desperate act to stave off the horrors of the C'tan.  The C'tan are also the only major race that is capable of FTL travel without using the Warp.  In addition, the Nightbringer is one of the most powerful special-character models ever put in the game. --Manuelomar2001
Con
*While the war between the Old Ones and the C'tan is important to the backstory, the actual effect the C'tan have on the game is pretty small. --Pak21 08:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[The Nightbringer]] and the [[C'tan]]

message: Proposed: -- user:Manuelomar2001 8:10pm, 27 March 2006 (CST)
Pro
*Khaine the last surviving God of the Eldar and the heart of thier race.  He is also the only non-Chaos "Daemon" model available in the game.   Khaine is the only being in the 40k universe known to have stood in direct combat against one of the Chaos Gods themselves (as opposed to one of thier many underlings) and managed to survive.  When everything in the heart and soul of the Eldar race had become corrupt, everything that Khaine embodies was still pure and untouched by Slaneesh.   His power is the only thing that has allowed the Craftworld Eldar to survive over the ages, and forms the heart of every Craftworld.   In addition, Khaine's model (The Avatar) has been available and part of the game since the 1st edition of Warhammer 40,000. --Manuelomar2001
** He's hardly "Pure" he was sent insane by the shards of the Nightbringer that embedded themselves in him. See my above suggestion of a "War in Heaven" article. --Charax 12:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Kaela Mensha Khaine]]