Talk:Dieu et mon droit

message: Why is the comment about "Honi soit qui mal y pense" necessary? The Order of the Garter was founded ~65-70 years earlier, and the fact that it has a French motto seems irrelevant unless there is some other connection that hasn't been mentioned here. Kyriosity 02:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, they go together.  They are both on the front of all our passports.  — Chameleon 03:53, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "Honi soit qui mal y pense"

message: This is my 1st Article about; Wikipedia articles on: The use of the Royal Arms and Royal motto in courts. In all courts throughout England and Wales, all Judges and Magistrates sit beneath the Royal Coat of Arms with the motto; “DIEU ET MON DROIT - GOD AND MY RIGHT” In the Queens Coronation oath, she makes her solemn oath in the sight of all the people by “laying her right hand upon the Bible saying: So help me God.” This oath is in accordance with Magna Carta Statutes: “John, by the grace of God King of England,” “Know that before God.” [61] “We give public and free permission to take the oath …we will compel any of our subjects who are unwilling to take it to swear it at our command.” This oath is compelled to be sworn by jurors, witnesses and the accused, in all law courts. The Court Usher compels the subject to place their left hand upon the Bible [representing God] and to raise their right hand. They then state the oath; “I swear by almighty God.....” Accordingly I/we all swear on oath by “God (h)and my right” - before and using - "God and my right". The Court’s use of DIEU - GOD, is not to British Monarchs, as this originates from the pledge of allegiance to English Kings/Queens; “In the name of God, King and Country.” Pledges of allegiance to all Germanic British Kings/Queens since the 1701 Act of Union, replaced this pledge with; “In the name of the King/Queen, his/her heirs and successors.” Stephen2nd (talk) 14:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I just removed the quotes and some other parts of the argument that "Dieu et mon Droit" derives from oath taking. I left the basic proposition with a fact tag. If the basic proposition is not given serious, verifiable sourcing by Friday, 25 April, I will remove it. -Rrius (talk) 21:35, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

text: The most charitable thing I can say is that your argument is original research, which is not the province of any encyclopedia. It is therefore against Wikipedia policy. See WP:No original research. As such, I am going to delete the conclusion that "Dieu et mon droit" originates with oath swearing. I would suggest that if you wish to include this conclusion in the article, you ought to prepare text that is fully sourced. That includes the conclusion itself, not just premises. I would also suggest that you make the text more reader friendly than your last attempt. -Rrius (talk) 23:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Like Rrius, I encourage you to read "Wikipedia:No original research", especially the section "Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position" before continuing to contribute to this article. Even if individual facts are verifiable, the conclusion that they lead you to cannot be included in the article unless it has been verifiably published by a reliable source.
“A Message from his Majesty the King" :
"To all serving in my Forces by sea or land, or in the air, and indeed, to all my people engaged in the defence of the Realm, I commend the reading of this book. For centuries the Bible has been a wholesome and strengthening influence in our national life, and it behoves us in these momentous days to turn with renewed faith to this Divine source of comfort and inspiration.” George VI: (father of Queen Elizabeth.) 15th September 1939. Ref: Holy Bible: Active Service Edition.
King James Version of the Holy Bible: 
“Great and manifold were the blessings, most dread Sovereign, which Almighty God, the father of all mercies, bestowed upon us the people of England, when first he sent your Majesties Royal Person to rule and reign over us... (e.g.: Divine right of kings.)
…we may rest secure and supported within the truth and innocency of a good conscience, which will ever give countenance to honest and Christian endeavours against bitter censures and uncharitable imputations.”Stephen2nd (talk) 14:57, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  use of the Royal Arms and Royal motto in courts 

message: The term "God (h)and my right"
Ref: Rrius. What is with the "h"? If there is a story there, tell it; otherwise, leave it out.
According to “Kearsley’s Complete Peerage” (1799) - Translation of Mottos: (xxiii) Dieu et mon Droit meaning “God and my right hand” was the motto of King George III. This is re-quoted in An Historical Encyclopedia (Pg 227).by M E Snodgrass, (2003) and again in “Questions and Answers Notes and Queries” (Pg 109) by M de Albuquerque (1906). The Encyclopedia Britannica; (1911) quotes the two words “Dieu et......” among its oaths, and also M de Albuquerque further quotes the two words; ‘Mon Droit’ as “Right hand.” 
This “Oath” meaning is argued by Foreign Service Journal (Pg 24) by American Foreign Service Association (1974) stating “Dieu et mon Droit”, stands for "God and my lawful right" and not "God and my right hand." Although Americana – (Pg 437): by American Historical Society (1926), also History of American Genealogy (Pg 112) by RB Ferrall (1981) both quote Kearsley’s; King George III’s interpretation “God and my right hand.”
NB: Kearsley’s Peerage; printed June 1799, appeared during publication of the 1st Edition (1796-1808): of the German “Brockhaus Encyclopedia;” emphasizing the raising of the ‘Right Hand’ during installations and coronations of German Kings; (such as George III.) 
NB: All British oaths; (Allegiance; Privy Council; parliamentary; military and judicial oath etc) all use a holy book (representing God) and the “Right Hand.” All these “Oaths” without exception, are all sworn before this “Royal Arms’ – motto; – Dieu et mon Droit.” Stephen2nd (talk) 14:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there any reason to interpret the French term this way though?  Mon droit means ‘my entitlement’; whereas ma droite means "my right [hand]". — Chameleon 03:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: In oine with my previous comments, I propose the following additions (highlighted in bold):
The motto is French for "God and my right" (A fuller version of the motto is also quoted as "God and my right shall me defend").[4] There are several alternative translations suggested by historians: these include God and my right to defend [citation] and the fairly common God and my right hand [citation], a reference to the raising of the right hand when an oath is taken. Occasionally, the word lawful is added to clarify which meaning is intended.[citation]
I'm worried about this section:
Originally spelled Dieut et mon droict in early Modern French, the t in Dieut and c in droict were later dropped in accordance with present French orthography.[citation needed]
Although it's entirely possible, I can't find even one website that supports it.
That's the first change, comments are welcome: I won't actually change it for a couple of days. - Jarry1250 (t, c) 19:53, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have any references for these alternate translations? --DWRtalk 18:32, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Stephen did. They'll need a little work (Publisher, date, that sort of thing), but you can see them on the times when they were included by him. - Jarry1250 (t, c) 17:29, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  In the spirit of being bold, make these changes. If desired, they can always be reverted. --DWRtalk 00:26, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

text: I'm skeptical that dieu ever had a final t.  droict is plausible (I can't say for sure whether or not I've seen it) because it's cognate with direct. —Tamfang (talk) 10:40, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Wiktionary does list droict as Middle French, but the c is merely a learned etymological spelling, introduced by scholars who knew Latin and tried to make the word look more similar to its Latin source (see French orthography#Middle French), and was never pronounced in French. The Old French form is simply droit, or earlier dreit. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:30, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes 

message: The Coke reference (to The Fourth Part of the Institutes of the Laws of England) does not appear to support the statement it is supposed to support. The claim in the article is that Dieu et mon droit is sometimes translated "God and my right shall me defend", but the article says (as best I can find), that "the ancient Motto of the King of England is, God and my right (intelligitur) shall me defend". It is a minor point, but that does not necessarily support that this is a translation of the French. For all we know, Coke is asserting that the motto has meant that since before the Conquest. I don't believe that, but we need a better source. 
The Martim de Albuquerque source needs to be more precise. It appears Notes and Queries is a multi-volume set. Which volume is supposed to support the claim in the article?
It is not clear why Americana, Notes and Queries, or The History of American Genealogy should be considered reliable sources for the translation. Quotes from them could be helpful, but they are cumulative, so I am going to delete them. I think the other sources support the point adequately. -Rrius (talk) 23:43, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: Does anyone know what the crown attached to the chain around the neck of the unicorn represent? Jack forbes (talk) 23:51, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chain and Crown 

message: None of english translation of "Dieu et mon droit" seems right according to the summary of this article explaining that  this motto refers to the divine right of the king to govern see Divine Right of Kings .  According to this explanation, the word "mon" ("my" in English) refers to the king and that motto is said by the king/queen so better translation respecting the meaning of the original sentence should be "My divine right".  Lpele (talk) 14:13, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translations 

message: Hi Brendandh. It's not only the webfolk at Buck house, Dieu et mon droit is often shown on the Scottish "version" of the Arms in Scotland. Also, calling the standard version, the "English version" is rather inaccurate since it is used everywhere outside of Scotland, such as Wales, N. Ireland, Canada, Australia etc. The political reality is that Great Britain, and the United Kingdom, are continuations of the Kingdom of England, and always have been. The Royals website is simply conforming to this political reality, and the only Royal Family that didn't was the Stuarts, understandably. You're view on this is irrelevant, citing a 3rd party, inaccurate source, over the Royal's website is not reasonable, or sensible. Regards, Rob (talk) 22:59, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok. No 1. the house of Stuart/Stewart has been the only reigning house of GB/UK other than the House of Hanover (no matter the latter's name changes) since the acts of union. No 2. Surely it is, a combination of honours ain't rare, (and I'd like to see a date for the sculpture in your link above!) "Dieu et mon droit" may well be used by previous colonies, using England's achievements rather than the 'other' realm(s) within the United Kinggdom because of its relative size and influence. But "In Defens...&c" is undoubtedly the royal Scottish motto regardless, and is the motto for use in Scotland. Perhaps you may care to contact the Lyon Court in that regard? (I'd say that the correct usage in Wales is "Ich Dien" btw!) Regards. Brendandh (talk) 23:56, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Further, this sculpture dates from the late mid/late 18th c. when the Hanoverians, had just put down the Jacobites. Bearing the arms of George III to William IV, my suspicion is that the sculptor of this piece was either an Englishman with superior cultural pretensions, or an ill-educated Unionist Scot. A mish-mash of two distinct heraldic traditions, all the more compelling when it appears to be located in the Royal Burgh of Linlithgow, with all that place's Jacobite connotations! Brendandh (talk) 09:41, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to do some more research into this. That there is even any motto/s of the UK is currently unreferenced. Regards, Rob (talk) 18:00, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The other half of the union... 

message: :"Estre" was the verb for "to be" in Old French and Anglo-Normand. "Est" meant "is", then as now.
:"Et" was the word for "and", going back all the way to the Langue d'Oeil (as well as Latin) from which Old French was derived.
:This can be seen in the 842 Oaths of Strasbourg:
:"Pro Deo amur et pro christian poblo et nostro commun salvament."
:"Dieu et mon Droit" in Old French meant "God AND my right", not "God is my right."
:JD
::Comparing the language in the Oaths of Strasbourg (Old French, 842) to "Dieu et mon droit" (Anglo-Norman, late 12th century ) is pretty much like expecting Jane Austen to write like Chaucer. 05:36, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. By the time that motto was coined, "e" had pretty much become the standard spelling for "and" in Anglo-Norman French, as evidenced in the first copy we have of "The Song of Roland", the first literary French text ever. There, all occurrences of "and" are spelled "e". If the motto had been meant to mean "God and my right", it definitely have read, "Dieu e mon droit". Additionally, "God and my right" is an incomplete sentence that makes no sense since "and" would be a conjunction coordinating unrelated items while a subject–verb–object makes perfect sense as a sentence structure to justify the King's assertion that "God is my right" to govern. Président (talk) 03:00, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

text: I've also reverted the change which cited the Anglo-Norman dictionary. That is WP:SYNTH as it makes no mention of this motto. Again, just original research. Before anyone says that the Buckingham Palace website (above) and other sources have got it wrong I would direct them to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. I've amended the lead to use this source which points out that it was adopted Henry V to refer to his "right" to the French throne. That means that by the time of its adoption in written form it was in Middle French and any discussion of Anglo-Norman etc is irrelevant anyway. DeCausa (talk) 08:01, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article is wrong. "Est" meant "is" and "et" meant "and" in Old French, just as in modern French. 

message: I removed 'Similarly, "Dieu est mon droit" is a devise which also existed in the Latin language in the 16th or 17th centuries.
'  The reference may seem to say something like "... and several mottoes in Latin; among others, the one which says Dieu est mon droit" but this does not make it true, it just shows that the reference is unreliable here.  For example Latin would start with Deus or something similar, perhaps Deus meum ius est 11:44, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  French not Latin 

message: Under "Language" there's a statement that it was not unusual for a royal motto to be in French. However, no citation is given for that. One might wonder how many such mottos have existed since William the Conqueror, and of those how many have been in French - but perhaps that wasn't the intention. Would it be more relevant to say it isn't surprising that this motto is in French because it comes from Richard I? (Both of his parents were born in France, and reliable sources state that he seldom spoke any English, perhaps never.) TooManyFingers (talk) 15:54, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of French "not unusual"?