Talk:Criticism of Esperanto

message: I tried to integrate the point-counterpoint nature of this page by putting all the related arguments together while maintaining NPOV. I think I have mostly succeeded, but I encourage those from both sides of the argument to point out parts that might be construed as biased. I personally don't really care, so I thought I would be a good person to do it.
However, I have to say that the pro-Esperanto responses to the sexism issue are kind of weak. The bit about being "gender-specific" is lame. I don't see why Esperantists can't just do what people have done to remove sexism from other languages, like English, by stigmatizing gender-specific words and using generic forms for all instances. "Steward" and "Stewardess" has been replaced by flight attendant. Within the acting community, "actress" has been mostly replaced by "actor", and you hardly ever run across references to things like "lady lawyer" or "woman doctor" anymore, and when you do, they are rightly labeled as sexist. I don't see any reason why you can't just say "doktoro" all the time and only use "doktorino" or "virdoktoro" when it is necessary to describe the gender of the doctor. I suppose this isn't done because the grammar of Esperanto is consisered "set" and unchageable, which seems pretty short-sighted to me. Maybe someone with more experience with Esperanto could explain why this argument isn't made. Anyhow, I've tried to keep the handling of it in the article neutral, but I think anyone who reads it will see that the Esperanto response is weak. --Nohat 01:12, 2004 Feb 9 (UTC)
From your second paragraph it can be seen that you have a very Anglo-centric view. Getting rid of gender-specific meanings is just the way it was done in English, given the grammatical features of the English language. In German, for example, it is considered sexist to just use the male form when you mean both (i.e. a sign for neglecting the females). Hence in Germany, the feminist movement caused that more and more people use both forms, saying for example "Kollegen und Kolleginen" for "colleagues", which in written language is sometimes abbreviated as "KollegInnen". 
A similar use can be observed in Spanish, where the words ending in -o will certainly never get a gender-neutral meaning. There they sometimes use @ for a/o in written language.
So the anti-sexism movement needs to consider the given circumstances, and decide what changes can be forced to increase awareness among speakers of that language.
In Esperanto, this movement has already changed a few things, namely that more and more words are considered gender-neutral, and only next-of-kin words are still used completely gender-specifically. The word "doktoro" for example is mainly used in a gender-neutral way. The form "virdoktoro" never existed anyway, as this way of forming the male form is only used for animals. A few people still use "doktorino", mainly for anti-sexist reasons, because in their native language it is considered sexist not to mention the female form. When using the plural, one can always use the both-gender-prefix ge- (eg. gedoktoroj), which is however mainly used for next-of-kin words (i.e. words where the stem still clearly has a male meaning), e.g. gefiloj. Only speakers of languages like German would use forms like "gedoktoroj", again in order to be non-sexist.
If you understand Esperanto, you can read http://www.bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/o-vortoj/seksa_signifo.html for a more detailed explanation of gender in Esperanto.
:Anonymous, do you feel this is due to something inherent in German or Spanish culture, or might it be due to the grammatical gender of the German and Spanish languages, so that every word faces the problem that he/she faces in English? Because in English we use precisely the kinds of solutions you illustrate for our pronouns: he or she, s/he, etc. kwami 01:38, 2005 Jun 2 (UTC)
* I removed European from the sentence Defenders reply that this asymmetric treatment of male and female is not a feature of Esperanto, but only a general feature of most European languages. Why? Because I've found that most languages distinguish between the feminine and the nonfeminine, that is, they treat the feminine in a special way, for good or bad depending on one's point of view. But before saving my change, just to make sure, I pulled a random (but non-European) language book from my bookshelf... Indonesian. And sure enough, I quickly found two Indonesian examples: The word orang is used to refer to people, persons or men; and Indonesian has a term of address for a man (Tuan) and one for a woman (Nyonya)... and one for an unmarried woman (Nona)! Indeed, this asymmetry is not merely European. Ailanto 00:17, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Irrelevant, and in any case OR. This is what defenders say. And Malay orang means 'man' in the sense of homo, not of viro. AFAIK there is no gender asymmetry in the grammar. kwami (talk) 10:01, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Doesn't matter. This is one of the more common criticisms. (And yes, these people would say that European languages are 'sexist': this is something they would expect to be 'corrected' in a planned language.) kwami (talk) 10:01, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Historically, masculine has been used as a default unknown gender.  Part of the blame for this lies in translations from Latin and French, but it did become convention in formal English whereas informal English would often just use "they".  Modern usage has got really mucked up by political correctness, by often just favouring "she" instead (this is no solution).  Convention in the computer world has gone really over the top, with all program developers being "she" and users being "he"; I say over the top because statistically there are more men than women in software development, and quite a lot of the software written is for admin departments which are statistically dominated by female workers.  So in order to be PC, we're effectively calling men "she" and women "he". Toc-toc-toc. Prof Wrong (talk) 12:01, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sexist constructs 

message: :...no other constructed language has approached the number of Esperanto speakers or has an extensive body of literature like Esperanto.
:This is interesting. Those conlangs that might compete with Esperanto in popularity have been around for much shorter periods of time. The Klingon Dictionary has sold more than a quarter of a million copies, and Klingon as a language has only existed for about 15 years. I'd like to see how Klingon does over the next hundred years; maybe it will catch up to Esperanto. You never know... :D thefamouseccles 23:21, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to point out that you are incorrect in your understanding of the 'mal-' prefix. It does not mean 'bad', it comes from 'malo', meaning opposite. Malbona means 'the opposite of good', malebla, 'the opposite of possible' (which can also be said as neeble, 'not possible', if that's not to your liking), etc.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:F220:C1FD:79F2:17D9:59BD:D46 (talk) 18:28, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Klingon 

message: The first article about neutrality or euro-centrism is surprisingly unneutral in nature itself. The vocabulary, spelling and phonology are indubitably European-derived, but it is difficult to argue the same with regards to the grammar and semantics, the grammar often being described as being closer to Chinese than to any European language (in terms of regularity of conjugation and so on), and the semantics, as in every living language, is determined by the population of speakers. But the most surprising claim is in regards to syntax, which in Esperanto is 99% free, with a few exceptions (e.g. the preposition immediately preceding the word it preposes, for obvious reasons).
The fact that these claims are mentioned isn't a problem in itself, but then the article would be more suited to a title such as "Criticisms of Esperanto" with a separate article entitled "Arguments for Esperanto". I don't however, think this is necessary, as any Wikipedia article is expected to be neutral and balanced. 
The claims about the time needed to learn the language is exaggerated in most people's cases, although the specified time-frame is not impossible for some people (Tolstoi being a notable example). Sumthingweird 11:52, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you knew Chinese, you wouldn't think they were similar! Also, only Eo word order is free (as in Latin, Greek, Russian). Syntax is more than word order, however. It includes such things as relative clauses and other embedding. Eo syntax is completely European & IndoEuropean. The morphology is much more regular than any IndoEuropean language that I'm aware of, and because it's agglutinative it's been compared to Turkish or Hungarian. However, that's a very superficial similarity: they are completely different in the details. (Possessive pronouns are not suffixes, for example. Such differences are much greater than the difference between Eo and IndoEuropean morphology.) As for things determined by the culture of the speakers, it's true that you can be polite in Eo in the European fashion of saying 'please' and 'thank you', or in the African fashion of inquiring about one's family. But that's pragmatics. Semantics deals with the meanings and implications of words and phrases, and these are again completely European. I'm thinking of Japanese, which is full of concepts there are no equivalents for in Eo, whereas you can translate into Eo from French or Polish literally, word for word, without a problem. kwami 18:31, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

text: You're right about that - as it stands it is an article on criticism, rather than neutrality. Please feel free to rewrite it. Eo is neutral in the sense that you can say things however you like, and coin new words as you like, and as long as it makes sense, it's good Esperanto - something which isn't true of any ethnic language. This is important, and makes the language tremendously easier to learn than ethnic languages. And there is an element of this in the grammar: "blue" can be an adjective or a verb; the definite article is optional, as is the Slavic aspectual system; the verbal root far can be used as a preposition; and you can coin conditional participles. However, it should be born in mind that only Europeans consider Eo to be neutral grammatically or semantically: 'Neutral' only means neutral with respect to the various European languages. That's something that's too often forgotten in Eo marketing campaigns. Only citing Europeans and saying that anything that disagrees with this is POV is somewhat disingenuous. kwami 05:01, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

text: But the two are intertwined. Let's suppose Esperanto were made the international language of diplomacy, business, and higher education. Then Europeans, who find the language almost simplistic to learn, would have a marked advantage over Asians. A European and an Asian speaking Esperanto are not on equal footing. How is that 'neutral'? True, Asians could become functional in it much more quickly than they do today in English, but not as the near afterthought that Europeans find it. This 'neutrality' is a bit like racial "equality" in the USA: Legal equality is not terribly impressive when education, job opportunitities, salaries, access to the ballot box, and imprisonment rates (for the same offences) are all heavily biased towards whites. Esperanto is similarly biased heavily toward Europe. I love the language, but I also love not being pulled over by the police for DWB every time I get in my car: It doesn't make me think the thing is neutral. kwami 08:52, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

text: As long as we stick to facts, then. I've had very different experiences with Asian Esperantists. Sure, the language is much easier than English, but that isn't saying much. Plenty of people I've met have expressed frustration at how illogical Esperanto is, with the only reason they can see for it being the comfort of European language speakers. kwami 05:37, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

text: The new term can be accepted later on by the community of speakers, if there is no better alternative for it. Many such terms have been accepted. It is remarkable that Chinese authors prefer to use the internal possibilities of Esperanto when they need to construct a new term.
So I think that the title of the topic is wrong. It should be something like "Esperanto vocabulary was originally based on Hindo-European languages".
--Remush (talk) 18:55, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality

message: :Although a truly representative sampling of the world's thousands of languages would be unworkable, a derivation from, say, the Romance, Semitic, Indic, Bantu, and Chinese languages would strike many as being fairer than Esperanto-like solutions
I'm not saying I agree/disagree but it seems like somthing like this needs a sorce.Cameron Nedland 19:51, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can we find a source? 

message: The evlish language spoken by the Noldor, created by J.R.R. Tolkien for The Lord of the Rings and teh Silmarillion, has a fairly full dictionary, if you realise that many words are formed by combining otehr words, such as Mordor, meaning dark land. THi is somewhat similar to Eo. Sindarin also has a fairly full dictionary, if you read the books which use it, particulaary the appendecies. teh Silmarillion has a dictionary (using Latin script), and includes the rules of word formation, while Rings has a table showing the characters used. I would imagine that a large part of the reason that the language is not in greater use is because of the difficulty of writing eitehr Feanorian script or the Angethras Daeron, which  are not to the best of my knowledge availabel in any standard charecter set.
Unlike Klingon, all the elvish languages in Tolkien's works are based on Old English, and so it is not overly hard for a speaker of a Germanic language to learn, althogh it is hardeer to read than Eo.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.101.102.188 (talk • contribs) 03:48, 3 April 2007
:Uh, 1. please sign your comments with ~~~~ so we know who and when; 2. your comment is for a text of the hypothetical article Comparison between Esperanto and Elvish; this talk page is about how to write about criticisms that have been presented against Esperanto, and suitable counterarguments against the criticisms; 3. if you are suggesting using Quenya instead of Esperanto – yes I've considered it, but the Quenya speakers are currently fewer than the Esperanto speakers, although this might change in the future. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 12:49, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh? The Elvish languages are patently not based on Old English in any sense and not exactly familiar appearing to a speaker of any Germanic language. The structure is inspired by non-Germanic languages (Finnish in the case of Quenya, Welsh in the case of Sindarin), and the vocabulary is completely (or almost completely, perhaps) a priori in fact, giving the languages a very alien (exotic, not necessarily extraterrestrial) appearance and feel (at least from the point of view of most Europeans). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:23, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Elvish

message: The website 'Learn Not To Speak Esperanto: A detailed if not entirely accurate criticism' is clearly not neutral. The author of it says some real criticism, but his/her not neutral point of view it's not for a serious enciclopedia... should be removed. Just see that, to count the esperanto phonemes and to make them 34 s/he adds "ei ai oi ui eu au", but it's well known that the IPA considers j a phoneme, so aj is made by 2 phonemes. Vowels as the 'u' in english (and also french) word 'menu' cannot be written as menju, because the u is an unique vowel, non divisible; but s/he compares this 2 kind of phonemes. Every criticism is made from a non-neutral pov, that is not well hidden (for example, s/he sais that something sounds 'horribly' just because s/he doesn't like, and this is a real scientific point of view... ). I emailed him/her some years ago and s/he seemed to be really ignorant about many aspects of simply grammar of languages he mentioned (fortunately s/he didn't put my name in his list of faq, where he listed the part of the letters with esperantists he liked more, maybe because i am not famous and because s/he would be shamed for being so ignorant in some points of simple grammar, where s/he just replied: "this is not the correct name of it" instead to say, "you are right, i didn't know that, but i said to look very clever, hoping that you didn't know this topic"). I don't want to continue, Piron made a better list of errors of an old version of this site (and writing in a better english than mine, sorry for that), just I ask to people who know about, to check and see that this personal and POV website has no right to stay where it is.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.29.161.153 (talk) 22:34, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, 'Learn Not to Speak' is pretty much garbage. I've left it there because coverage of Esperanto often reads more like a fan club than a serious discussion. Do you have the Piron site you mentioned, or it is already in the article? If it's no longer up, we could link to an archive of it. kwami (talk) 20:44, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I want to say something. The problem is this: according to wikipedia rules, a non NPOV website cannot be here. Do we want to respect this rule for all, or we do some arbitrary exceptions? I know it is not easy to find better criticism in English, but it's not adding all nonNPOV website that we solve the problem, else, we can also add all forums in internet. I tried to translate in internet this and i noticed that, even if the webmaster seems to be esperantist, he didn't avoid to talk about criticized aspects of the language and to admit that it could be different. --Iosko (talk) 18:34, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So somebody should delete it, since it's not according with WP rules, and rules are clear about that. (To Kwami) Yes, it's already in the article, after that website. --83.10.65.84 (talk) 18:22, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I agree. It's not scientific, doesn't have a NPoV, it's just a personal website made to do propaganda against espo, etc. Keep it has no sense. I'm sorry, but we shouldn't even discuss about this, rules are rules and have to be respected. --Iosko (talk) 20:46, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Done, both NNPOV website and reply (Piron articles are is still in the other link). --Iosko (talk) 10:27, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutral website?

message: Good that the problem is solved, but I want to open another little one about the same section. About Italian, Spanish ... people who make criticism for -a -o endings. That's not true. It can be weird for them when they know the rule the first time, but after the first day(s), they just "metabolize" that, and don't demand to change it; they know that in a different language you can have different rules, it's normal. (I discussed recently about that with some Italian friends, both experantist and not.) About proper names, i read somewhere that the use of Johano/Johanino is not compulsory, because everyone is owner of his/her name and can choose whether or not writing it in esperanto for (if this form exists, of course). --Iosko (talk) 09:27, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Go ahead and change the -o/-a stuff as you understand it. Or just delete it if you prefer. (I was trying to get criticisms from something other than English speakers, but the -o/-a comments I've heard have been rather minor.) I think the Catalan comment is interesting, but maybe we can fit it in somewhere else, such as the morphology article. As for the names, of course people may call themselves whatever they want. But that's rather beside the point: it is more pertinently an issue when translating literature. kwami (talk) 10:02, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok done. --Iosko (talk) 10:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Other (hopely) little problem

message: I'm trying to understand this passage (either as it currently reads, or as it was before it was changed):
Don Harlow has noted that the difference in language background only becomes apparent when translating into an ethnic language: Novels written by English and Polish authors, for example, are equally easy to read for both English and Polish native speakers. However, an English author's work will translate easily into Polish[<<<this used to say "English"], while a Polish author's work will prove much more difficult to translate into English. That is, Esperanto can accommodate either language more easily than they can accommodate each other, and this is partially due to the lack of culturally fixed ways of speaking.
Now, as it used to read, I thought this was saying that the Eo work of an English author would translate easily into English, but the Eo work of a Polish author would not translate easily into English.  That made sense to me.  Presumably, the Eo work of an English author would not translate easily into Polish, and the Eo work of a Polish author would translate easily into Polish.  But when someone changed it to "Polish", and I undid that change, my revert was reverted.  And it makes spectacularly no sense to me that in a discussion of Eo one would say that English translates into Polish more easily than Polish translates into English.  So now I'm just thinking that the passage is fundamentally confusing.  I can't find any corroborating evidence of Don Harlow making this particular point, though (not that I'm all that familiar with what source material is available).  What was this passage intended to convey?  --Pi zero (talk) 12:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: When I read it, I took it to be an example about translating ethnic languages. So it shows that it is easy to translate English into an ethnic language, but it is more difficult to do the reverse. If it means what you took it to mean then I think it has been seriously badly written. Alan16 (talk) 17:34, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I think it is trying to say that each language can be translated and re translated into and from English/Polish better than it can be translated between the two. Alan16 (talk) 17:36, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

text: My mistake then. Apologies all. Alan16 (talk) 22:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

text: For clarity, I'd expand the last clause to "But they'll have greater difficulty translating it into their language than they would translating the Esperanto work of a Polish author." — kwami (talk) 20:27, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translating into Polish? 

message: Why does the Criticism of Esperanto article start off with why one should learn Esperanto? Is that not counter-intuitive? 64.191.211.55 (talk) 21:04, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't. It starts off by the intended purpose of E. and by raising the issue whether E. fulfills the purpose. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 16:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism? 

message: It's kind of funny (by which I mean sad and pathetic) that this article, which purports to discuss criticisms of Esperanto, reads more like a pamphlet written by an Esperantist to encourage more people to learn Esperanto. This article would be better titled "Rebuttals of criticisms of Esperanto", since the majority of it seems to be filled with apologetics and shining praise for the language. Neutrality means putting yourself in the shoes of those who disagree with you and really meaning it, not pretending to put yourself in their shoes and allowing yourself to be easily convinced by your own arguments. Also, as a side note, external links are not required to be NPOV (that's in response to the earlier discussion about Learn Not To Speak Espo) and never have been, although it might be a good idea to put certain links under a heading of "Anti-Esperanto views". We are required to be NPOV in the information we give, but we can certainly provide readers opportunities for further reading at sites that do not share our policies in that regard. Therefore, I have re-added the link. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 12:25, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You're welcome to rewrite the article for better balance. However, although external links do not need to be NPOV, they should be factually correct. That blog is pathetic: it's not a one-sided critique, which would be fine, but a falsification of the language. I am therefore deleting it again. — kwami (talk) 20:56, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  What a joke 

message: The paragraph "Esperanto has failed" is unsourced and should be removed. --134.10.113.198 (talk) 16:17, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:IDONTLIKEIT, which is apparently your true motivation, is not an acceptable argument. Also, your latest attempt to censor WP would have violated 3RR. — kwami (talk) 16:36, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed at any time. The burden is on you to provide sources if you want it to stay. --134.10.113.198 (talk) 16:47, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

text: Page is not longer protected at this time. Jnorton7558 (talk) 05:55, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit 

message: I have just edited out the following from the section Esperanto has failed, refering to the idea that time spent on Esperanto is better spent on other languages.
:  This is perhaps an odd criticism, since no natural language could be learned in as short a time as Esperanto, but it is frequently offered nevertheless.
This is not a logically sound counter-criticism.  No-one claims that (eg) Spanish is quicker to learn than Esperanto, but rather they make the value judgement that a modest amount of Spanish is of more practical use than full fluency in Esperanto.  This position, whether you personally take it or not, must be recognised as valid -- you can't travel anywhere using only Esperanto, and to many people that is understandably important.
Prof Wrong (talk) 17:50, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "odd criticism" in "Esperanto has failed" 

message: This article has around 12 main sections, and around 1600 words, making many, many claims about criticisms of Esperanto. Yet, only 6 citations?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.46.57.248 (talk) 02:15, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: True.  But you could help out and stick in a few  tags next to some of the unsupported claims. Prof Wrong (talk) 13:01, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

text: What's worse, only 2 of the 6 citations/references are about criticism of Esperanto, the others are just relating to the language itself. Almost every other sentence in the article can't have a citation needed tag, it'll look ridiculous (more so than it already does, anyway).--212.139.107.158 (talk) 15:57, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources? 

message: I wonder why Wikipedia has an article like this for Esperanto (and it should be divided in pro/cons sections by the way) and English does not. I wonder why even in the article "Esperanto" theres's a criticism part (and this one is linked to it) and in the English one there's not. I wonder if wikipedia is neutral enough here. 
English is spoken by 30% of the world at some level, I think it would be more interesting for wikipedia users to write an article critizing English as a bridge language than an Esperanto one. English didn't originate in order to act as a interethnic language, it lacks lot of things many planned language as Esperanto do not. It's like criticizing a car for being artificial and watching all the world using british horses to travel to Paris and not critizing that. Here there's no mention that comparing with the criticism it could be done of the alternatives we had and still have (always "accepting" the strongest language of the time/half-century, Latin, French, English, Chinese later) the criticism of Esperanto is derisory/trivial for the same purpose acting as a "bridge language". I see a kind of hidden information... This mention should be in every single article "Criticism of X" created. 
Here's another point: Is Esperanto sexist? I wouldn't say so so convinced, knowing "malina" is a common way to write "male" (derived from ina, feMALE, with the preffix for opposite mal-) in esperanto congress forms. Neither if kuzo and edzino has a female origin (kuzin' edzin') and is the opposite case. How could I add that point of view if there's no pro section? Is it fair for those who do want to defend their language and commonly know way more about it than those who criticize it?)
Is Esperanto opened to public criticism on Wikipedia because of it's planned origin (as Indonesian...) but English, Spanish, Indonesia (too nativized now) are not? (artificial too... words didn't grow form trees, you know?). I don't get why this http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Grin_Report was speedydeleted for not being important enough and this one remains here...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alekso92 (talk • contribs) 02:21, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: In general, Wikipedia don't like 'criticism' sections and articles, because it draws attention to a very neagtive viewpoint. Criticism - bad as well as good - should be included in the article, instead of staying seperated.--Momo Monitor (talk) 01:07, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why even an article "Criticism of Esperanto"? 

message: Since 2013 citations missed. No one added them. Now I delete every content with no citation. Of course I will try to find sources for all of it, but if I can't, I will delete it. --Momo Monitor (talk) 14:15, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: I've merged all content. How to delete this article? --Momo Monitor (talk) 14:39, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It shouldn't be deleted proper. Instead, it should be redirected, which I've just did. --JorisvS (talk) 17:12, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge