Talk:List of acupuncture points

message: I propose that this section have some set of standards listed as to the form and content of an acpuncture points description. Thus when the list of links is completed the point descriptions will all have the same format. I suggest the following format:International Nomenclature, Chinese name in Pinyin, English translation (e.g. ST 36 Zusanli Foot Three Regions)History (e.g. In the Nei Jing Su Wen, the bilateral zusanli points are mentioned...) Location (e.g. On the lower leg...)Traditional Functions (e.g. Harmonizes the Spleen and Stomach) Modern Applications (e.g. jaundice)Scientific Research (e.g. ...University affiliated hospital, treated the control group with atropine and valium, but not the acupuncture group, who were treated, instead, at zusanli...)Commentary (e.g. Compare to LI 10 Hand Three Regions)--Remark knights (talk) 15:28, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Standardization 

message: Thanks a lot for this marvellous list; 
a question: shouldn't it be 门 instead of 門 in Shenmen. In my dictionaries it's the first sign, so I used it in: :de:Shenmen - which sign is correct? :de:Benutzer:Redlinux 217.237.109.159 (talk) 19:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Those are the same character; 門 is the traditional Chinese character, and 门 is the simplified Chinese character. They are basically interchangeable, but I chose to use the traditional forms in constructing this list because that was how they were written when they were developed, and I thought they may be more commonly used abroad (where fewer people would have learned the simplified forms promulgated by the People's Republic of China). There are probably quite a few more variations like this in the list, as well; though many are the same too. Rigadoun  (talk) 19:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh, thanks a lot, an easy explanation for a - in my eyes - difficult question; I agree with You and will use the traditional character! :de:Benutzer:Redlinux 217.237.72.225 (talk) 20:01, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Shenmen

message: There are heaps of info regarding each point, such as the location, function and potent--58.38.41.179 (talk) 03:28, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please do not auto-direct the acupuncture points 

message: Great resource!  I would like to have the tones on the pinyin point names.
If no one votes against this I might start to add them as I find the time to do so.
Would write them like this: ū ù ú ǔ.
--Nicolasnicolas (talk) 13:42, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pinyin names with tones? 

message: Hi all!
After starting to review the point list I encountered some errors in the chinese characters.
When starting to work on the page I will correct these after discussing them here on the page.
Furthermore my personal thought is, that the list should be part of the en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture_point page.  However I understand the concerns mentioned on the discussion page: it's a quiet long list, so a hyperlink to an extra article (this list of acupuncture points) might be a good idea.
I am against discussing the locations of the points.  Starting this will start to spoil up the list.  There are different traditions of acupuncture and for some points varying locations.  Discussing this won't fit a single line per point.  Hence I would like to drop these.
But I would like to add the japanese point names.  Japanese acupuncture traditions also refer to a point predominantly by its name and not by its "id" (e.g. Lu1).
As for the format I am thinking of a table with columns (in that order): point id, traditional chinese characters (recognized in other asian countries as well), pinyin name with tones, japanese name, notes.  The 'notes' row might take up alternative names or commonly used simplified characters, whatever concerns point id and name.
Again: I would like to limit the list contents to these informations and not start discussing each acupuncture point (which would include location, functions, indications, maybe combinations, etc.).
What do you think?
--Nicolasnicolas (talk) 10:44, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, Nicolasnicolas! I saw your post on WikiProject Japan. Though I'm not an expert on acupuncture, but as a native speaker, I think I can help you on Japanese names. Ja Wikipedia has their list articles. Here is the list. This EL might be helpful too. (The character encoding is Ja Shift_JIS) As for the ja names, generally kanji are as same as Chinese and the difference is only the pronunciation. Oda Mari (talk) 05:18, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Oda Mari!  Although I am not able to read kanji, hiragana nor katakana, esp. the link to the japanese acupuncture point list will be very helpful in double checking my data.  Up to now I have only two listings of rōmaji japanese names.  May I ask for your help in checking a bunch of those name transcriptions later?--Nicolasnicolas (talk) 09:19, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

text: 足三里 is ashi-sanri. It is also called just 三里/sanri. But there's another (手)三里/LI 10. So sometimes 足 is added. Oda Mari (talk) 13:49, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Japanese transcription is konron. Oda Mari (talk) 13:52, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Taikei. But is it Kd3? The ja ref. says it's KI3. Oda Mari (talk) 14:02, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

text: kyokutaku. Oda Mari (talk) 14:05, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Chūshō. Oda Mari (talk) 14:06, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

text: To avoid violating NPOV, remember to keep the mention that the very existence of acupuncture points is disputed. Note it's not disputed within mainstream science (there the lack of evidence of existence is enough), but only between science and believers in alternative medicine. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:40, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks Brangifer.  I have an overview of the published studies that have been done in order to identify acupuncture meridians and acupuncture points.  There are findings that can't be argued, however none of these results are able to explain what acupuncture claims to be able to achieve.  However I reply with a much easier question to you.  I am not a native english speaker.  And I never read the term 'mainstream science' by now.  So I'm not able to differentiate your use of the terms 'science' and 'mainstream science'.  Please hint me on what you refer to as 'mainstream science' and to what as 'science'.  Thank you! --Nicolasnicolas (talk) 14:09, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Planning complete revision 

message: ==== Search hits by Wikipedia search engine ====
I would like the Wikipedia search engine to produce search hits to this page for some varieties of point names.
E.g. for St-36, 足三里, zú sān lǐ, san ri I would like to have also search hits for "zu san li", "zusanli", "zúsānlǐ" and "sanri".  How can this be achieved?
:足三里 is ashi-sanri. It is also called just 三里/sanri. But there's another (手)三里/LI 10. So sometimes 足 is added. Oda Mari (talk) 13:49, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Details 

message: I would like the Wikipedia search engine to produce search hits to this page for some varieties of point names.
E.g. for St-36, 足三里, zú sān lǐ, san ri I would like to have also search hits for "zu san li", "zusanli", "zúsānlǐ" and "sanri".  How can this be achieved?
:足三里 is ashi-sanri. It is also called just 三里/sanri. But there's another (手)三里/LI 10. So sometimes 足 is added. Oda Mari (talk) 13:49, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Search hits by Wikipedia search engine 

message: ==== 俞 instead of 兪 in revision ====
According to mandarintools.com both characters share the same meaning.
However all of my sources use the character 俞 for shū/yú.  So in the revision I will change to this character for SI-10, SI-14 and SI-15.  Sources: "A Manual of Acupuncture" by Deadman et al, "Die Wandlungsphasen der traditionellen chinesischen Medizin, Band 4, Wandlungsphase Feuer" by Lorenzen & Noll.--Nicolasnicolas (talk) 11:23, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Japanese transcription is konron. Oda Mari (talk) 13:52, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Taikei. But is it Kd3? The ja ref. says it's KI3. Oda Mari (talk) 14:02, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

text: kyokutaku. Oda Mari (talk) 14:05, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Chūshō. Oda Mari (talk) 14:06, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revision of chinese characters in point names 

message: According to mandarintools.com both characters share the same meaning.
However all of my sources use the character 俞 for shū/yú.  So in the revision I will change to this character for SI-10, SI-14 and SI-15.  Sources: "A Manual of Acupuncture" by Deadman et al, "Die Wandlungsphasen der traditionellen chinesischen Medizin, Band 4, Wandlungsphase Feuer" by Lorenzen & Noll.--Nicolasnicolas (talk) 11:23, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  俞 instead of 兪 in revision 

message: According to "A Manual of Acupuncture" by Deadman et al, "Die Wandlungsphasen der traditionellen chinesischen Medizin, Band 5, Wandlungsphase Wasser" by Noll & Lorenzen the characters for this point are 昆侖.  However Noll & Lorenzen note that the older writing 崑崙 emphasizes the meaning of (kunlun) mountains.--Nicolasnicolas (talk) 11:42, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Japanese transcription is konron. Oda Mari (talk) 13:52, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Will revise Bl-60 Kunlun 崑崙 to kūn lún 昆侖 

message: According to "A Manual of Acupuncture" by Deadman et al, "Die Wandlungsphasen der traditionellen chinesischen Medizin, Band 5, Wandlungsphase Wasser" by Noll & Lorenzen.--Nicolasnicolas (talk) 11:51, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Taikei. But is it Kd3? The ja ref. says it's KI3. Oda Mari (talk) 14:02, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Will revise Kd-3 太溪 to 太谿 

message: Which is the traditional writing according to mandarintools.com.--Nicolasnicolas (talk) 12:08, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: kyokutaku. Oda Mari (talk) 14:05, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Will revise Pc-3 曲泽 to 曲澤 

message: Which is the traditional writing according to mandarintools.com.--Nicolasnicolas (talk) 12:12, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Chūshō. Oda Mari (talk) 14:06, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Will revise Pc-9 中冲  to 中衝 

message: 耳 ěr means "ear", 耳和髎 ěr hé liáo "ear harmony crevice" according to "A Manual of Acupuncture" by Deadman et al.--Nicolasnicolas (talk) 12:18, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Will revise SJ-22 和髎 to 耳和髎 

message: Sources: "A Manual of Acupuncture" by Deadman et al, "Die Wandlungsphasen der traditionellen chinesischen Medizin, Band 1, Wandlungsphase Holz" by Lorenzen & Noll (who do not list Deadman in their references list), japanese wikipedia acupuncture point list for gallbladder meridian.--Nicolasnicolas (talk) 12:42, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Will revise Gb-6 懸釐 to 懸厘 

message: "A Manual of Acupuncture" by Deadman et al. is the only source writing St-45 as 儷兑 and translating 儷t as "strict".
The actual point list, the japanese acupuncture point list of stomach meridian as well as "Die Wandlungsphasen der traditionellen chinesischen Medizin, Band 3, Wandlungsphase Erde" by Lorenzen & Noll name it 厲兌.  Hence I will keep it this way.--Nicolasnicolas (talk) 13:14, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  St-45 厲兌 

message: With help of www.acucn.com and www.mandarintools.com I decide to follow Deadman to use 腦.
Both (first) characters mean 'brain', but mandarintools refers to 腦 as traditional character of 脑 (which differs from 脳).--Nicolasnicolas (talk) 13:30, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Will revise Du-17 脳戸 to 腦戶 

message: Although Deadman uses 肩真, I will follow other sources to call it 肩貞 — virtuous, chaste, pure instead of real, actual, true, genuine: "Die Wandlungsphasen der traditionellen chinesischen Medizin" by Noll & Lorenzen, this acupuncture point list, japanese Wikipedia small intestine point list.--Nicolasnicolas (talk) 11:05, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  SI-9 肩貞 

message: This article is intended to be a list of some acupuncture points by their names and "international numbering scheme".  A discussion on the nature of these points (e.g. their physiological equivalents) is not scope of this list and will be removed.  Such discussion is expected to take place in the article on acupuncture itself.  Hence this paragraph will be removed.
Also this list will not provide any location information of the points.  Hence there is no need to put an explanation of the cun/sunn measurement system here.  This should be mentioned in an in depth description of e.g. acupuncture.  So this paragraph will be removed too.
The introductory paragraph will be adopted.
I should write some text on the grouping of points according to (main) meridians, which is not the only criteria by which the set of acupuncture points has been organized and systematised.  And there are more points than these, which are said to belong to one of the twelve/fourteen main meridians--Nicolasnicolas (talk) 16:42, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: To avoid violating NPOV, remember to keep the mention that the very existence of acupuncture points is disputed. Note it's not disputed within mainstream science (there the lack of evidence of existence is enough), but only between science and believers in alternative medicine. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:40, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks Brangifer.  I have an overview of the published studies that have been done in order to identify acupuncture meridians and acupuncture points.  There are findings that can't be argued, however none of these results are able to explain what acupuncture claims to be able to achieve.  However I reply with a much easier question to you.  I am not a native english speaker.  And I never read the term 'mainstream science' by now.  So I'm not able to differentiate your use of the terms 'science' and 'mainstream science'.  Please hint me on what you refer to as 'mainstream science' and to what as 'science'.  Thank you! --Nicolasnicolas (talk) 14:09, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revision of introductory text

message: Finally I submitted my work on the list of acupuncture points.
There are some issues with the article I do not know how to cope with better than I did.
How should I indicate the reliability of a name better than I did (question mark).
Is the reference to the sources okay?
How should the ongoing process on further checking data be displayed other than by the 'Underconstruction' template?
And finally: do you have any other suggestion on how to improve the article further?
--Nicolasnicolas (talk) 16:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Complete revision of the article. 

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thread_title: File:Small Intestine Acupuncture Meridian.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: The first table has Code, Chinese Name, English, Korean 한글, and Vietnamese, then the second table adds the transliteration and Pinyin columns. Next table, and Korean and Pinyin are switched. I'm not sure, it just kind of bothered me. Awesomecat713 (talk) 00:59, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistent tables