Talk:Historical negationism/Archive 4

message: The two photos of Lenin speaking at a meeting in Sverdlov Square actually appear to be two different photos taken at different times.  Many people, including Lenin, are in different positions.  It's possible, but unlikely, that Trotsky and Kamenev were just never in the second photo, having left or entered (depending on the order in which they were taken) between the two. 71.82.5.145 (talk) 16:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos of Lenin speaking 

message: Hi. I read the article intro and I found it a little POV. It contains sentences/words which put the topic in a negative light, such as "ignoring essential facts", "to distort", "it allows them to cloak their illegitimate activities". I do not dare to change it since it is such a delicate topic and I am not a native speaker of english, but I'd like if some of you considered what I've said. Bye --87.10.191.186 16:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is POV by definition, no one calls negationism undistorted and legitimate, see historical revisionism. -- Stbalbach 13:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

text: You obviously do not have a good idea about the way that Historians work. And the Holocaust has never remained unchanged as you seem to allege. New research is always being dug up, in some cases literally. Darkmind1970 13:50, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro slightly POV? 

message: The mention of the novel "1984" as an example of negationism seems puzzling. I'm not certain if the article refrences the behavior of the fictional governmental entities in the novel or the novel itself as an example.  
68.45.143.196 20:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  1984 citation questioned 

message: The question is - who is denying the truth. The negationism label sounds like a way to brand a historian who is getting too close to your ox. What is the term that describes someone who tries to hide an unpleasant fact from others - I hope it isn't mainstearm or legitimate or accredited.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.105.80.219 (talk • contribs) 16:36, 1 December 2006  (UTC)
denying "essential facts" - how does a fact become "essential". Can an "essential fact" be questioned scientifically? If an "essential fact" is impossible, is it "essential". 
This article sounds foolish.
Indeed. The entire definition of Negationism is sophistry. "a particular form of historical revisionism concerned with the denial of facts accepted by mainstream History." Give me a type of revisionism that doesn't refute accepted History, and I'll show you how it isn't revisionism. The previous definition is no different than "the critical reexamination of historical facts" listed as the definition for Historical Revisionism. It is just framed differently.
Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that the Holocaust didn't happen or anything - I just see a division that doesn't actually exist. "Fact" isn't democratically determined, so how can a theory be false simply because it goes against "mainstream History". Anne Curry denies that it was 4:1 odds at Agincourt, does that make her wrong even though History traditionally accepts that "fact". Revisionism IS the denial of established History. If there is any difference between Holocaust Denial and Revisionism it is the use of sophistry, not disagreement with public opinion. Kelden (talk • contribs). 22:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  truth 

message: Doesn't the part about Macedonianism seems slightly biased?
141.217.108.100 18:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some Bias 

message: What about the President of Iran's comments about the Holocaust? Shouldn't that be mentioned here? I have heard that this is common among education of Muslims in Muslim countries- denial or complete absence of mention among Muslims. 
poopsix 08:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is just illustrative examples, we are trying to keep away from listing controversial or on-going debates. I suppose if you have some neutral source such as an international body or court of law that labeled it as negationism it might be more credible - otherwise we enter into a long debate from two sides if it really is negationism or not - not the purpose of this article. -- Stbalbach 16:05, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Revisionism 

message: It's not clear that this section is dealing with out-right negationism, or just normal controversy surrounding historical events. Is there an objective independent source that calls what is happening negationism in order to verify? -- Stbalbach 14:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some have alleged this (see Negationism in India - Concealing the Record of Islam). Obviously, there are political issues that go both ways so nobody is "objective" here, but ...Rumpelstiltskin223 15:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah it gets complex when it's not clearly negationism but just one side claiming negationism. This article is not a "List of negationism", but rather the theory of negationism with "Examples of negationism" -- so we have stuck with the clear and illustrative cases, and tried to avoid the controversial and on-going ones. The source provided is probably not a neutral one - is there some sort of international body, a judge or court that has commented on it? -- Stbalbach 15:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

text: This does not seem to be the case for Macedonism either. No international body etc there either.Do you want the whole India section deleted or reworded somehow? Rumpelstiltskin223 15:56, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islamic invasion of India 

message: Googling for "Crypto-revisionism" (excluding Wikipedia and mirror sites like answers.com) I get only 58 hits. That seems kind of low for it to be considered an established term and for us to know enough about it to include it in the article. If we can't find any good sources describing what it is we should take it out. Regards Osli73 10:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a pejorative neologism - there are many neologism's on Wikipedia. Nothing wrong with mentioning that it exists. As for what it means exactly, as with all neologism's, it can mean different things depending on who uses it and in what context. Here is one example from a printed source. -- Stbalbach 16:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Crypto-revisionism" doesn't seem like a well established term 

message: Regarding this section, recently added and moved here:
:===Chinese attempts to rewrite Korean History===
Starting from the 1980's, the People's Republic of China began to re-identify Goguryeo, especially the first half of Goguryeo's history before it moved its capital to the Korean peninsula, as a part of the regional history of China rather than of Korea. More recently, this effort has been called the Northeast Project. The rationales deployed are simply illogical given that: 1) Goguryeo defeated the Sui and Tang Dynasties of China several times before finally being destroyed by a Tang and Silla alliance.* 2) Additionally, this claim made by the Chinese government'sNortheast Project is impossible given that the claim following the fall of Goguryeo only a few hundred thousand of its estimated 4 million inhabitants were taken into captivity by China and not the whole population. The Goguryeo state continued with Balhae, which considered itself as the successor of Goguryeo; when Balhae was destroyed, its population dissipated into the Korean dynasty of Goryeo. Hence, Silla was not the sole source of the modern Korean nation.* 3) The claim that only the present South Korean Jeolla and Kyongsang regions were descendants of Samhan, where is south of Geum River. There are more Koreans descended from inhabitants from outside Samhan and Silla, i.e., north of Geum River. North Koreans are descendants of Goguryeo, and North Korean shares the same languange and culture with the South Koreans. *Ministry of Culture and Tourism Republic of Korea
This has no reliable and verifiable sources to back it up as being historical revisionism. It also reads like original research. The examples used in this article are supposed to be well know, un-ambiguous, and clearly backed up by the best possible sources. Who called this thing in Korea "historical revisionism"? Was it an international body? Or was it someone who disagrees with Chinese policy and wants to label it as historical revisionism? Who are these critics who are calling it historical revisionism? Are there people who disagree with these critics?  -- Stbalbach 18:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chinese attempts to rewrite Korean History 

message: From my talk page
:Hi. You restored a particular reference for the use of 'negationism' in the above article. I'm afraid it doesnt qualify as an encyclopaedic reference; Koenraad Elst, as his wp bio will show, is something of a fringe scholar in historical terms, and his use of the word is particularly coloured by both his polemic and cultural background (he is Belgian); it is thus does not serve as an argument for the increasing use of the word in the mainstream.
More generally, that sentence sounds like OR to me. One would imagine that a reliable peer-reviewed source has actually discussed the increasing use of the word and could be cited. Hornplease 21:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  UNESCO confrence and negationism 

message: Both terms refer to the same concept. Tazmaniacs 16:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I agree. Up for an Afd? Tazmaniacs 19:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge [[genocide denial]] here 

message: First, I have some doubts that the source, Daily Herald, can be considered as "reliable peer-reviewed academic work".
Second, I do not deny that history of Russia was written anew several times. I am just a little bit surprized, that Wikipedia take sides. There is no mention of altered history in the "beacons of democracy" on the former Soviet Union space. Or celebration of SS in republics of Baltic Sea region is not historical denial? If needed, references to official laws can be provided easily. Or honouring in Ukrain the UPA, wihch fougth on the Nazi's side and responcible for about half of civilian losses? The veterans of this group are now heroes of nation by order of president Viktor Yushchenko. (For some reasons, wikipedia article about Ukrain does not mention those "non-essential" facts.)
Finally, way of theach history in Russia is quite different from US swallowing of facts. Not all the information comes from the school books, especially related to recent history. A lot of topics are the subject of discussion, based on the newspapers, TV broadcasts and direct life experience.
So my suggestion is to consider this chapter unbalanced and needed to be revised, or to exclude it  as representing clear political preference of the author's point of view.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.154.139.37 (talk) 18:40, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soviet and Russian history/Few general questions about terms and approaches 

message: As explained  here the following was deleted in the article by  but no reason was put on the talkpage. Why was it deleted, and how could it be improved..
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Historical_revisionism_%28negationism%29&diff=prev&oldid=126711190  "Historical revisionism" (also but less often in English "negationism"Negationism is the denial of historic crimes. The word is derived from the French term Le négationnisme, which refers to Holocaust denial. It is now also sometimes used for more general political historical revisionism as in:
:* Dr Koenraad Elst Negationism in India - Concealing the Record of Islam (1992). 
Wikipedia is global, so the Indian view of the term negationism should also be included in this article. Negationism happens not only in the West. 
have removed this text as being an unsourced and pov synthesis. all material added to Wikipedia articles must be reliably sourced. Doldrums (talk) 20:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletions 

message: I have just restored a deletion of a cited quotation from Richard J. Evans, Professor of Modern History at the University of Cambridge, and expert witness at the Irving v. Lipstadt. The text was delete with the comment "rm non-notable book by WP:FRINGE author, rm uncited and OR". It is difficult to think of anyone who is better qualified to comment on the methods used by negationists than this man!  --PBS (talk) 17:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: An error, obviously. I explained in my edit comment. Quote was too long, though. Relata refero (talk) 18:59, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Richard J. Evans 

message: From the history of the article:
* 12:43, 4 March 2008 PBS  (This says nothing of who or what Koenraad Elst is, just an example of a book title with "negationism" in it. please take it to the talk page before repeated deletion.) 
* 10:09, 5 March 2008 Relata refero (Its on your talkpage, PBS, respond. One fringe book title with the same word as the article subject is not encyclopaedic.)
From my talk page:
:Will you please stop putting Elst back in? Read his Wikipedia article, please. The man's a non-notable fringe author who's been lathered all over WP by a bunch of SPAs, many of whom are now banned. Relata refero (talk) 10:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Negationism in India - Concealing the Record of Islam]] 

message: How can an encyclopedia article be considered NPOV when its lede includes a sentence such as:
:"Historical revisionism" (also but less often in English "negationism"[1]), as used in this article, describes the process that attempts to rewrite history by minimizing, denying or simply ignoring essential facts. Perpetrators of such attempts to distort the historical record often use the term because it allows them to cloak their illegitimate activities with a phrase which has a legitimate meaning. (emphasis added)
Might I suggest that everybody read WP:WTA and let's discuss a more neutral way to describe historical revisionism? Thank you. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 20:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I support your suggestion very strongly. I do not know what this article is about, really. You have moved to deal with the trees before the forest, and I defer to you on that Shabazz, and I will give you my support (especially since I've been the one whose been substantially tagging the site with the  & "WP:POV"> Let me add that I agree with you on the above 100% (and I hope you are glad about that). So I give you my sincere cooperation. --Ludvikus (talk) 21:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Malik Shabazz have you read the other article Historical revisionism this article is about Irving and people like him who distort history for political motives.  See 308 See also Japanese War Crimes By Peter Li. this Daily Telegraph article uses the phrase to describe Irving's work "Although yet to write his most notorious work of historical revisionism, Hitler's War, Irving was already regarded as a Right-wing extremist." Then see the Evans quote in the section "Techniques used by politically motivated revisionists" and follow citation for the quote to the URL in the citation, the sentence immediately before the quote reads "The many examples presented in the present paper demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt that Irving has repeatedly engaged in the falsification of the historical record." --PBS (talk) 12:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: PBS I agree with your characterization of holocaust denial Irving. However, the article is written extremely poorly. Look how we write about Hitler, for example. Also, it should stick to the topic you are discribing, namely, Historical Revisionism a.k.a. Negationism, and not go all over the place into areas which are covered by other articles anyway. --Ludvikus (talk) 13:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Holocaust denial is a subset of this illegitimate use of historical revisionism. Irving also wrote many other books about historical subject. Evans proved that he distorted the statistics for the deaths in Dresden for example, that is not holocaust denial that is what is described in the British press as historical revisionism. --PBS (talk) 13:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "However, the article is written extremely poorly" Which do you consider to be the most poorly written section? --PBS (talk) 13:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

text: I think your points relate to the issue about specific examples used in this article. With cases like Irving there is little dispute about the use of the term and the linking of its use to those phrases. Also I don't think anyone would disagree with its use for history in the USSR under Stalin. The problem occurs when the phrase is used to describe issues that impinge on a countries collective sense of historical narrative. For example with France, Turkey and Japan, because the issue becomes one like Russian dolls, what is the standard international view may appear as revisionism when published in those countries, but equally those views may appear as historical revisionism outside those countries. The question of whether either of these views are illegitimate historical revisionism is in part political. So I agree with you that in those cases, it was I who rephrased "Yasukuni Shrine has been criticised by people such as Tsuneo Watanabe..."  to be in the format you are suggesting. But on as can be seen in the recent edit by WikiSkeptic  who has just added a sentence to that paragraph, there is a lot of pressure on this article for the addition of terms that uses weasel words and do not carry a citation. Most of these entries have looooooooong edit wars and in many cases are compromises. It is for this reason that the article has the structure and content that it does. --PBS (talk) 19:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: There is no point asking for a citation for summaries of sections that are fully cited in the main body of the article. For example "In some countries historical revisionism (negationism) of certain historical events is a criminal offense" is covered by the section Historical revisionism (negationism)#Law_and_historical_revisionism -- So unless the editor who put it there can give a good reason for it being there I will remove it along with other citations that seem to ignore the advise in Wikipedia:Lead_section#Citations. --PBS (talk) 13:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good. Progress. 1st there's no relation between the 1st Footnote & the 1st Opening sentence. Conform the opening paragraph to the citation you give. The footnote talks about the 1900's, etc. By clean it up it is ment that the footnote & the article's opening sentence(s) conform to one another. They do not. You can say what you wish that expresses what these Rivisionsts say. But make the distinctions which scholars in the recognized community make. --Ludvikus (talk) 14:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. As I have explained to you more than once there are two distinct usages of the word. One to describe legitimate  as historical revisionism described in the historical revisionism article and the other use of the term to describe research using illegitimate methods to attempt to influence the public's perception of certain historical events. I have removed this edit "15:08, 7 May 2008 Ludvikus  ( Footnote does not support sweeping statement(s) in opening Para. contrary to appearances)" please explain in detail which part of the sentence is not covered by the source given because I have no idea what you mean by "The footnote talks about the 1900's, etc.". Further I would remind you that this is a lead section and it is meant to be a summary and not overburdened with footnotes. --PBS (talk) 17:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations and templates in the lead 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Oppose Negationism is almost never used in English, so to change this name to negationism would be to create a neologism in English. This page was originally under the name "historical revisionism (political)" but the extension "(political)" caused problems -- as can be seen on the archives of this talk page -- and negationism although not widely used was a convenient disambiguator extension for this page as an alternative to the original. --PBS (talk) 12:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You are being contradicted by the article itself. If this is indeed the case, then the proper action would be to either rename the article to reflect this, merge it into Historical revisionism, or delete it. Let's see if there is a consensus for or against the proposed move first. B.Wind (talk) 22:56, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey