Talk:Mudaliar/Archive 1

message: I'm fine with it. There is already a check going on your name. But still why don't u state your very important opinion on KKV, TMV and TMSV? Why are you so afraid to talk about KKV and TMV? You are such a loser. Your whole TMSV glory is fake. Why curse me when you are worth less than shit you bastard of brahmin. It is time and you are on your way out and Wikipedia would be a better place without you just as Tamilnadu is better off without your people. I have proven soundly that TMSV is fake. Why so eloquent on Kaikolar and so silent on the KKV TMV and TMSV faking? I have been dealing with your bull shit for 4 months now and still you wont change for it is impossible for you, you worthless scum. == Venki 21:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Go ahead and do a User check on my login 

message: Ewwwww....Venki Duh! What a crock of shit! You're just lying big time. Yeah right, Pallava royal family renamed themselves as Kaikola and then took up weaving. They sold their daughters to become Devadasis in Shiva temples to earn money. Now from the claim that Pallavas are Kaikola, you will claim Pallavan Narasimhavarman is your relative in the near future. Your messed up all over. Keep it flowing.
Mudaliar 20:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Pallava is Mudali is Kshatriya is Kaikola : An analysis" (Taken from [[Sengunthar]] page where Venki claims Pallava lineage)

message: First of all, the websites are biased sites whose only aim is to potray Indians as poor and obtain money from believing christians. There are many other groups on these same websites, have you looked at all of them?
Secondly in the article Devadasi itself, before you started your false edits, it is mentioned that the community called Isai Vellala (a subcaste of Vellala) is the source for the girls of devadasi. These Isai Vellala have been passing off as Kaikolar to hide their origins . This is because kaikolar is a distinguished group well-known from the 10th century AD. This is not sanskritization, this is just plain passing off. 
Thirdly, in your talk page, you had already been warned by other users not to use these biased websites as your reference as there is no independent non-biased research.
Last, if your aim is to spread slanderous false statements about Sengundar and I quote you take it outside of wikipedia on other community sites and take it to a whole new level ?, I'm not bothered. Your threats wont work in wikipedia. Further you better examine both your motive and your mental health?
Venki 19:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply from Venki

message: Are you willing to follow the RFC procedure? I have put the RFC at the top so that it is easy to refer to. If you would like to give your own statements on the various questions posed in the RFC please add them also. There is no need to bold everything you say. Why are you deleting references I have given about Kaikkola using Mudali title from 1100AD in the Sengunthar article?
Venki 17:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Simple questions for User:Mudaliar 

message: ;This is a dispute about what groups can use Mudaliar title and which group used the title first.
This dispute involves user Venki123 and user Mudaliar.
Statements by editors previously involved in dispute 
;According to user Mudaliar,
*it is Thondai Mandala Saiva Vellala (TMSV) caste who were the first users of this title.
*it is Thondai Mandala Saiva Vellala (TMSV) caste were the feudal lords who conducted agricultural raids
*it is Thondai Mandala Saiva Vellala (TMSV) caste who were first vellalas settled in Thondai Mandalam by king KariKala Chola
*Kaikola caste are weavers who have no history before that.
*The caste called  Thondai Mandala Vellala (TMV) are different from the caste called  Thondai Mandala Saiva Vellala (TMSV).
;According to user Venki123,
*There is no definite proof for which group is the first user of this title. If there is proof 
available to the contrary, this will be withdrawn.
*The usage of this title refers to only officers intially and not castes.
*Kaikola caste used this title from 1100 AD. (Proof given)
*Kaikola caste were warriors forming many regiments in Chola army from 900 AD.(Proof given in the form of inscription)
*Castes such as KondaiKatti Vellalas, Payur Kottai Vellalas also existed as subcastes of Vellalas in Tondai mandalam (Proof given in the form of British reports)
*Castes such as KondaiKatti Vellalas, Payur Kottai Vellalas also used the title Mudaliar (Proof given in the form of British reports)
*Caste called KondaiKatti Vellalas (KKV) were also known as Thondai Mandala Vellala (TMV).(Proof given in the form of British reports)
*Caste called KondaiKatti Vellalas (KKV) also known as Thondai Mandala Vellala (TMV) were 
the first group to be settled by King Adondai chola in Thondai Mandala. (Proof given in the form of British reports)
*Castes such as Kaikolla-mudali agambadik-kottu-mudali samanta-mudali agambadittana-mudali Kelvi-mudali agambadi-mudali existed during the reign of Cholas and pallavas around 11-13th century. (Proof given in the form of inscription)
Venki 16:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Comment: Mudaliar Title

message: *User Mudaliar is deleting proofs of other castes using Mudaliar title by reverting.
*User Mudaliar is unable to provide proof that TMSV used mudali title in the past.
*User Mudaliar aims only to denigrate other castes using Mudali title including the caste Kaikolar.
*User Mudaliar has created many aliases such as JuneTrey Madrasi Eugene32 and IP address 207.250.0.154. It is suggested that user Mudaliar change his username so that it is easier to refer to him and stop using multiple sock puppets as it causes confusion.
Venki 16:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding User Mudaliar

message: Karikala chola was not the king who settled TondaiNadu.   —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Venki123 (talk • contribs) 21:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name of chola king who settled TondaiNadu 

message: As important as the village-based vertical ties of the Mirasidars were the horizontal relationships developed between the Mirasidars and their literate kin, called Dubashes, who lived in Madras. A Dubash was a person who knew two languages; generally, the term was employed by the British in Madras to refer to a group of individuals who knew English and Tamil or Telugu.[49] Usually Dubashes acted as agents or brokers either for individuals or as employees of the British and other European Companies. Even today, modern companies in Madras that have origins in the eighteenth century have a senior official called a Dubash, a vestige of this practice. Most of the Dubashes in late eighteenth-century Madras were Telugu brahmans or Telugu perikavārs, Tamil kaṇṇakappiḷḷais, Tamil yādhavas, or Tamil Kondaikatti vellalas.[50] Many of these Kondaikatti vellala Dubashes were connected by kinship to Kondaikatti vellala Mirasidars in the Poonamallee and other rural areas of the Jagir. In contemporary documents, these Kondaikattis were known as Mudalis—later lengthened to “Mudaliyār”—a term that literally meant a person of first rank. However, in the view of many of the Company officers, the term “Mudali” carried a pejorative meaning. Mudalis were despised by the British because they were considered both essential actors and great threats to individual British and Company operations. Place said that almost every domestic servant down to the lowest menial employed by a European gentleman could be included in the network of connections deployed by these Dubashes. According to him, the Mudalis were able to use their contacts and knowledge of Europeans to retain “every inhabitant [in their own villages] in complete subjection.”[51] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Venki123 (talk • contribs) 22:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proof Number Three that KKV is TMSV

message: What is the percentage of inter-caste and inter-religious marriages in the Mudaliar community? If it is less than 80%, aren't they anti-social?
Maaparty 18:25, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Intercaste Marriages

message: Mudalair is not a caste but a title of various people. 
RaveenS 22:34, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misc 

message: Please do not use the article space for your conversations. That belongs on the talk page. Thanks, Valley2city 05:29, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Talk page, not article 

message: Disclaimer: I'm not picking or trying to demean anybody.
1. Some ppl have to stop speculating and start getting your history straight about Mudaliars. I'm sure you have access to some good libraries if you cannot find info on the net.
2. I don't have a problem w/ other castes using the title in recent years. But other castes have to stop trying to take credit for the origin of the Mudaliar title. It doesn't make sense. Mudaliar is a feudal title, a title of rank, given to a person who organized agricultural raids in the Pallava kingdom. Only prominent Vellalars or agricultural landlords organised these raids.
a)This was only given to some prominent Vellalars of the Pallava kingdom which is why the TN Govt refuses to see the other castes (BC/ MBC) using the title in the same light as Thondaimandala Saiva Vellala who are FC in order differentiate the original population. If its as simple as adding a title at the end of your name then TN Govt(note that some BC/MBC castes are also listed in Andhra and other Indian Govt as BC/MBC) and other Indian Govts would be grossly misrepresenting a whole community by labelling them BC or MBC.
3. I don't have a problem about anybody belonging to BC/ MBC. If you've got a complex then why don't you try and get your caste removed from BC/MBC and move them to FC. 
4. A few people over here have been unable to digest being labelled as BC/MBC. I can understand this, nobody likes to be told they are from an inferior caste. At the same time they act as though they don't believe in the caste system at all. 
a) If you truly didn't believe in the caste system then why do you keep repeating over and over that "we don't marry outside our caste". To be more specific, why do the Sengunthars don't marry a Dalit etc. The truth is, the society will look down upon you. I'm not necessarily saying this is correct but you have to stop acting as though you don't believe in the system at all. If you really didn't care then you would not be here trying to prove a point.
b) The ppl from BC/ MBC don't seem to have a problem calling themselves BC/ MBC while getting into an educational institution. Most of the BC/ MBC who use the Mudaliar title are definitely well off.  Don't you then think its an unfair advantage over the FC candidates(of course, there are also truly brilliant ppl from BC/MBC)? I 've personally seen about hundreds of BC/MBC candidates bypass FC candidates due to this inspite of having a lower rank. Don't you think it makes more sense to set reservations based upon financial status ? The truth is the ppl from BC/ MBC don't want to be labelled as such but at the same time want to enjoy the privileges.
c) The FC's aren't creating caste problems nowadays. Its the people from BC who keep fighting with the Dalits, take Tirunelveli for example. The truth is every group needs to step over someone else to feel good. First we fight within ourselves, then fight with the Gounders, Pillais etc. Then the non-brahmins fight with the brahmins. On an Indian level the north Indians look down upon the south Indians. On a world level it doesn't matter if you're a Kashmiri/ Punjabi and fair, some white ppl would still consider you inferior to them if you're not a white.
Maybe if all the BC/ MBC start becoming FC then these problems would slowly cease to exist.
Critics welcome.
Mudaliar 16:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reg. Mudaliar 

message: The lead paragraph of this article needs to explain that this is a caste in India.  It needs to start out with basic info, before details.  Since the article is in English, when the term Mudaliyār is defined, it should probably mention what language it is in.  I know there has been disputes about some of the details, but these larger, more encyclopedic issues should be dealt with first.  Imagine any speaker of English, reading the first paragraph of this article -- what do they need to know, first to understand this topic, without any foreknowledge? Cheers. Dina 00:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Some editing suggestions

message: I have posted this Rfc where it belongs. Hopefully, outside editors will appear on the talk page and weigh in.  The Rfc posted above uses the format of an Rfc on a user.  A user Rfc must have at least two people verify it, and be posted at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct.  This dispute does not qualify, as it is a dispute between the two of you.  Let me stress this, for when other editors arrive to weigh in: new comments on a talk page should be placed at the bottom.  Cheers. Dina 17:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Society, law, and sex]]

message: Due to a process called Sansrikritisation (Every caste takes up the
habits and customs of its immediate superior to reach the superior
status), some section of velalars gave up meat eating and became
vegetarian (They are know as Saiva Velalars). This process had
started as early as Pallava Period (700 AD) but even the great tamil
literature "Periya Puranam" talks about Velalar as a single grouping.
The actual mention of Saiva Vellalars as a caste grouping is
available in literature only after the establishment of Telugu
Nayakar rule in Tamil Nadu.(1600 AD).
Hey periapuranam wrote by a sengunthar named sekizhar alias uthamachola pallavar he is not tondaimandalavellalar,Sekizhar's brother name was pallavarayar,if you want evidence please visit kundrathur sivan temple
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tamil_velalar/message/1
This is blasphemy! I'm sorry but you've been misinformed. It's well known that Cekkizhar's given name was ArulmozhiThevar and he was a Vellala and a minister in the kingdome of Kulothonga Chola. Thevar means Lord and was usually used by Vellalars in ancient Tamil kingdom. You can verify this with the Mukkulathor group in TN. I agree with you on the name of his brother Pallavarayar. Rayar was used by Vellalars and Pallavarayar means "Lord of the Pallavas" and he was a vellala. As for whether he was the ruler of all Pallavas that is a different debate.
Vellala 14:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This place is full of retards. Cekkizhar was sengunthar it seems. Your ignorance is my bliss. Sekkizhar's real name is Arulmozhithevar. He has been clearly identified as one of us by well known historians and even the Kallars and Maravars agree to this. Thevar means lord (after "Deva") and occurs in many Vellalar names. The ppl whom you are referring to as the Kallars, initally used "Kallar" (for eg: King Thondaman Kallar) but then later it became associated with its literal meaning and was used derogatively. Hence they have now changed to Thevar title in recent times. But this does not mean that "Thevar" was exclusively used by Kallars and Maravars.Mudaliar 14:45, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saiva Vellalas and Sankritization 

message: According to the message, evidence for Saiva Vellalas as a caste is available only after 1600 AD. This is the same as you claiming that all Nayanmars who are Vellalas belong to Saiva Vellalas. It could be any Vellala group out of the 200 or so known.
Venki 23:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saiva Vellalas as a group created only after 1600 AD 

message: There are inscriptions about Thimappa Mudaliyar who is obviously a Telugu, Chokkavilli Bhattar alias Mudaliyar who is a Brahmin. So are you saying all these are the original Mudaliyar tribe from whom Saiva Vellala Mudaliyar descended? Interesting!! The reason why Kaikkola-mudali is mentioned because Kaikkolas were able to add mudali title as their birth right. The same goes for agambadi, samanta, etc. I dont find any vellala-mudali so far. If you find any let me know.
Venki 23:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mudaliyar title inscriptions 

message: These Nayanars were the original title of saiva adhinams according to you. So there must have been a title change from nayanar to mudaliar. So back to our fundamental question : Is Mudaliyar a caste? Where there a original mudaliyar?  I dont think so.
Venki 23:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  nayanar title 

message: There is a lot of vellalas described in the inscriptions.
Venki 23:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vellala title 

message: Now I assume that you are willing to accept these inscriptions as valid, since you are claiming them as valid proofs. So why dont you revert all the edits about Kaikkola-mudali??!!
Venki 23:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quality of source and revert edits 

message: Search for Mudali keyword then you will understand how the word was used.
Venki 23:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mudali keyword in whatisindia.com 

message: It also seems to state that Mudaliar was not a group name. Only a title for those who served the king.
Mudaliars and Pillais are both titles. Some scholars think that the
title Mudaliar was given to leaders of various castes/commnities
during the Chola Empire who were responsible for collecting taxes
from the peasants. In that sense one can compare them to the
Zamindars who did similar work for the Mughal emperor or the various
Nawabs, or the British Collectors who collected taxes for the British
East India Company and later the British Empire. Apparently there
were Mudaliars among brahmins as well as paraiyars, though a lot of
these titles were indeed awarded to agricultural communities.
A lot of the castes that have the Mudaliar title today seemed to have
served the King in someway. The Agamudaiyars are said to be the
Agambadiyars or the bodyguards of the King. The KaikkoLas and the
Sengunthars served the Kings too. There is a saying that goes
something like "kaLLar, maRavar, agamudaiyaar mella mella veLLaLar
aanaar." Those three castes are primarily martial castes that served
the King and had land grants and in peace did agricultural work.
But it is the Saiva veLLaLars who were entitled to the posts of heads
of Saiva Atheenams who seemed to have been really powerful. Along
with the brahmins they had state patronage, usually were
administrators of the Saiva temples that dot the Tamil country as
well as the lands that were associated with these temples. It is this
group that was powerful in Sri Lanka.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tamil_velalar/message/2
Venki 23:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another message from Saiva Vellalar newsgroup 

message: To conclude the argument, we dont have to start all over again. If both of us have presented all proofs, then we can ask an independent editor, to look at our proofs and see whether there exists a Mudaliar tribe who first settled the Tondai Nadu and who are called the Tondai-mandala saiva Vellala.
My argument is Mudali is a title given by the king to certain groups which served the king. Later it became a title that gave prestige and used by everybody who became rich. There is no Mudali tribe. There were many groups which used the Mudali title during 1000AD. Many have now disappeared. A Few remain. A few other groups have started using the title starting from the British era  (17th-19th century). Kaikkolas were using the title around 1100 AD (proof given). It is a right accepted and granted by the Kings both Chola and Pallava.(proof given).  So Kaikolas cannot have started using it for the purpose of social upliftment during the Nayak times (13-16th century) or early British era (17th-19th century) or during the modern age (20-21st century).
Regarding TMSV, it was claimed that TMSV first settled the Tondai Nadu during King Karikala chola time. On the contrary, there is a British report that states that Tondai Nadu was settled by King Adondai chola son of King Kulotunga chola and the group was called Kondai Katti Vellala (KKV). (Proof given) The group Saiva Vellala was mentioned as a distinct group in literary sources only from 1600 AD. So any proof that TMSV used the Mudaliar title can start only from 1600 AD. So it cannot be claimed that Saiva Vellala is the first to use Mudali title. Further, most other Saiva Vellala groups use the title Pillai.
Finally, I have no time to keep reverting.
Venki 00:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concluding the argument about the word Mudali and its usage 

message: If the discussion on Mudaliar title and origin is concluded to the satisfaction of all editors and there is no more discussion, Clean it up to remove the clutter. The page is now at 80 Kilobytes more than the recommended size and needs cleaning.
Saedirof 18:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Is discussion on Mudaliar concluded or not??

message: Kaikolars were originally weavers and were only militarized during the Chola reign. The Tamil caste society was a ladder system. There were 2 ladders viz., Right-Hand Castes and Left-Hand Castes. The Right Hand Castes consisted of Brahmins at the top followed by Vellalars, Chettiars and then Mukkulathor in that order. The artisans and other castes fell into the left-hand castes which were below the right-hand caste ladder. You were not allowed to jump from left-hand caste ladder to right-hand caste ladder but you can climb the rungs within your ladder. The process of  climbing up the ladder is sanskritisation. The Kaikolars were part of the left hand caste ladder along with saliyars, etc. The Dalits were part of neither of these caste ladders. They were below the left hand caste ladder. "Kallar, Maravar, ..mella, mella, vanthu vellalar ahi mudaliyar sonnar" : this saying describes the way the Mukkulathors climbed up the ladder over time to become vellalars and then finally called themselves as mudaliars. Kaikolars were weavers originally and are classified as a left-hand caste for this reason only. The original soldiers are the Mukkulathor and the regiments were clearly called "Kaikolar padai" to differentiate them from the original "Maravars" belonging to the Mukkulathor community. Are you contesting that Kaikolars aren't a left hand caste ?
Mudaliar 21:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Kaikolar

message: what has the left hand vs. right hand got to do with the origin of Kaikolars? Kaikolars were classified under both sides based on the region. Further it was not a rigid system. The same group could be in either side and change sides. However not all groups could do that.
Venki 23:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: left hand vs. right hand 

message: Is there any information available on whether TMV and TMSV are one and the same? Secondly in which order the TM epithet and Saiva epithet added to Vellala caste name?
Venki 23:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  TMV vs TMSV 

message: If TMV is not same as TMSV, then a new category is needed for this group.
Venki 15:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A new TMV group is needed 

message: Ewwwww....Venki Duh! What a crock of shit! You're just lying big time. Yeah right, Pallava royal family renamed themselves as Kaikola and then took up weaving. They sold their daughters to become Devadasis in Shiva temples to earn money. Now from the claim that Pallavas are Kaikola, you will claim Pallavan Narasimhavarman is your relative in the near future. Your messed up all over. Keep it flowing.
Mudaliar 20:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Pallava is Mudali is Kshatriya is Kaikola : An analysis" (Taken from [[Sengunthar]] page where Venki claims Pallava lineage)

message: Due to the many revert wars going on between User-Mudaliar and other users including myself in this article Mudaliar , following the suggestion of the admin I propose that we conduct a survey among the editors of this article.
In the talk page, please state your opinion of two contending issues.
a. Who are the kondaikatti vellala KKV or TondaiMandala Vellala TMV and what is their relationship with the group TondaiMandala Saiva Vellala?
b. Why is the group Sengunthar being denigrated in this article for over 100 sentences when other mudaliar groups have only 10 sentences about them? Is it necessary to describe only about the false negative aspects of Kaikolars?
Your opinions should be brief. For example my opinion is:
a. I'd like to know more about the KKV or TMV and who they are and how they are connected to TMSV? b. Sengunthars have their own page in Sengunthar so there is no need to describe them in detail here. Just a short paragraph is enough similar to Agamudayars or Kerala Mudali or TMSV.
Note to User:Mudaliar -- let this be here along with your version of this article so people can understand what the dispute is about.
No sock puppets please. Venki 21:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute Resolution Survey

message: TMSV Propaganda editors Read this - - First of all, everybody in Tamilnadu knows that TMSV Mudaliar had close association with Brahmins and sent their wives as concubines to Brahmins and many of you are possibly bastard children of Brahmins. This is how you rose to the position you enjoyed during Nawab rule and British rule. Obviously there are no inscriptions to prove this, just as there are no inscriptions to say that there are dalits in Tamilnadu. - - Let us hope you as capable of normal discussion since you can read English. - - It is a simple question, maybe you can understand this or not. If TMSV is such a great feudal lord caste (which apparently you are not), why the hell are you guys deleting references to KondaiKatti Vellala and stealing the proofs of KondaiKatti Vellala. It is such an obvious error. Even a person who is not familiar with India can find the error. - - Next time search for proofs about what TMSV group were doing instead of KondaiKatti Vellala. - - When u are sitting in a glass house, throwing stones on others wont help you in any way. So proving that something is poor, does not make you good. You stand on your own merit. - - This is the modern democratic world. Everybody is defined by who they are and not what their ancestors were doing 1000 years ago. From your point of view, KR Narayanan and Abdul kalam who have risen to be presidents of India are inferior, because of who their fathers were. You get low respect not because you are bastards of Brahmins, but because of the prejudice and bigotry you exhibit. As psychologists say, only the inferior try to prove others are inferior and only a thief thinks everybody steals. - - Now it is very clear why your group was thrown out of Tamilnadu along with Brahmins. - - Wikipedia is about adding relevant facts not for your propaganda nonsense. - - User:Mudaliar and his equivalents do NOT have the maturity to understand this. But if you get mature enough, you will add the section on KondaiKatti Vellala who is definitely not your group. Otherwise continue the reverting and propaganda. It looks like your ego is tied too much to your propaganda. - - Finally, just because you write your propaganda in Wikipedia does not mean anybody is going to believe you in Tamilnadu or anywhere else. Even other Saiva Vellalals dont give any respect to TMSV. What you are doing is so ridiculous but you are definitely not getting the joke. -
Venki 05:01, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reposting for TMSV Propaganda editor User:mudaliar 

message: Simple and easy. The fundamental question is why are you so intent on hiding all info about KKV/TMV? 
Venki 21:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hello [[User:Mudaliar|Mudaliar]], why dont u just state your opinion on this proof of yours about TMSV? Why are accusing me of everything under the sun, but not stating your opinion. After all, you started slandering Kaikolar and deleting all evidence of KKV/TMV. Why so rabid then and so silent now? Is TMSV fake? Forget about kaikolar and everything else. A simple question a simple straight answer. before you decided to remove all evidence of KKV, you must have a reason for doing that. Who are KKV/TMV? Who are TMSV?

message: From Venki 18:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  final call for opinion 

message: There is absolutely no chance the last kings of Jaffna were Kaikolas. Firstly, if the last king was then the entire Arya Chakravarthi clan must be. It can not just be the last king. They have Rameshwaram as their origin and titled themselves as Sethu Kavalar (protectors of Sethu). They are either Kalingha, brahmin or vellala origin as stated in the wiki page itself. Any doubt can be clarified with a qualified Sri Lankan Tamil historian. The kaikolar origin is simply out of the question. None of the decendants I know consider themselves Kaikolars. They go as high Vellalars (previously also Madappalis).
Looking at the Vaipava Malai, Kailaya Malai and the other Royal Texts there is no doubt that Thondaimandalam vellalars have used Mudali as their surname for a long time (even pre 13th century). I can not comment on other clans or about Tamil Nadu. Even Kathirkamam or SInhalese I have no idea. 
But there is no need for such ill feelings. I am sure the title was used in many different contexts in the past. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Weldingveerasamy (talk • contribs) 14:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: has been constantly vandalising and harassing all the editors (just go through his contributions and you will realise the way he uses digusting words to intimidate and slander anyone who isn't a Kaikolar). Now all of a sudden he has made a complete U-turn, and is attempting to play "nice guy" (thanks to all the authors who have gone to great lengths to describe the Kaikolar caste in vivid detail) because of the research articles and the numerous academic references. His lame attempt at proving that the kaikolars are not devadasis does not hold water against all these academic references which clearly prove otherwise: that the devadasi community in South India was clearly an offshoot of the Kaikolar/ Sengunthar community. The Kaikolars are clearly described as the Kaikolars of the terinja-Kaikolar Padai. Hence there is no room for any ambiguity in this issue. Mudaliar 02:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last Kings of Jaffna 

message: I have given two easily accesible references of independent websites. One is Narthaki a website which promotes the dance art of Devadasis as Bharathanatyam. The second is a well known newspaper. If any of the articles cited as reference by User:Mudaliar are accesible, I'll be glad to read them. If they are not accesible then please remove them. Again what matters is the exact proper name of the group that dedicated girls to Devadasi system. The reference articles given by me clearly state they are called Isai Vellalar as indicated by other editors before the vandalizing by User:Mudaliar. I don't think a world renowned newspaper such as Deccan Herald would have a vested interest in hiding the true name of the caste which contributed girls to this devadasi system. See the first few paras of this Talk:Devadasi page and the history of this article Devadasi. Only User:Mudaliar insists on using the Kaikolar name which is no longer being used by the Isai-Vellalar group of people.  This is because User:Mudaliar himself belongs to a sub branch of Vellalar similar to Isai-Vellalar and hence is ashamed and has a vested interest in denigrating Sengunthar.
Venki 03:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The references that prove the Kaikolars are Devadasis are research articles and academic references. Your links pale in comparison to these. I don't care if you cannot access these links. Go to a library from where you can access them. These links are valid academic references and will not be removed.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mudaliar (talk • contribs) 04:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kaikolar Reference articles 

message: Let us not forget in our haste the core problem of this article. Who are the Tondai-mandala-Vellala alias Kondai-katti-Vellala? What is the true origin of Tondai-mandala-Saiva-Vellala and why are they stealing proofs from the TMV group? Was Mudaliar title used by one and all or restricted to a group initially?
Venki 03:44, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is the title of one particular group. The others like for example the Kaikolars who are clearly described as Devadasis started using them only for social upliftment. Rest in peace.Mudaliar 04:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  TMV/KKV vs. TMSV 

message: The devadasi system has been abolished for over 60 years. Even 100 years ago, the caste for devadasis was recognized as Isai Vellalar. Please see the websites below.
The origin of Devadasis was from Isai Vellalar as seen in this article . Narthaki is a well known website of the patrons of the dance form Bharathanatyam. The article is by a renowned author. See this newspaper page from a renowned national newspaper . 
All the reference journal articles given by User:mudaliar cannot be referred to any more. So either we should fix their links or remove them.
So even though one would like to think that user:mudaliar made a genuine mistake, I dont think so. His editing started only after the revert wars in the article Mudaliar. Please see the history and time stamp.
He has made these edits because of the prejudice he has against the group kaikolar as can be seen from the edits and reverts he made in the articles kaikolar kaikolan  Sengunthar  Sengundhar. Please see the history and time stamp.
To study the etymology of the word Kaikolar,  kai meant hand and Kol simply meant stick in Tamil.
kol (p. 315) [ kol ] , s. a rod or stick in general, tati; 2. sceptre, government, cengkol; 3. a pencil used for blackening the eyelids; 4. a measuring rod or pole, alavukol; 5. a staff to lean upon, unyukol; 6. balance scales, tulakkol, Libra of the Zodiac; 7. a horse whip, cavukku; 8. a branch of a tree, kompu; 9. an arrow, ampu; 1. a spear, itti; 11. roundness, tiratci; 12. ploughshare, kozu; 13. lute string, yaznarampu. 
Defintion from university of chicago website - http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/fabricius/ via link 
In the case of Sengunthar they go by the name Kaikolar (kai=hand kol=spear or sceptre) as they were warriors during ancient Chola period. Similarly it is used by isai (isai=music in tamil) Vellala (meant farmer or producer; in this case producer of music) to mean (kai=hand kol=lute string).
It is customary for a caste to have more than one name in Tamilnadu. Other castes such as Tondai-Mandala-Vellala use the name Kondai-katti-Vellala; Nattu-Kottai-Chetti go by the name Nagarathar. Nadars go by the name Chanar.
User:Mudaliar has maliciously used this two name system to slander the Sengunthar. In modern times i.e, from 1900 onwards Isai-Vellalar have stopped using the name Kaikolar and it is exclusively used by Sengunthar.
So I suggest we remove all references to Kaikolar or Sengunthar in this article. However to prevent any future confusion, it is better we add the caveat that they Isai-Vellalar used Kaikolar as their alternate name along with the proper etymology. So all reference materials prior to the period 1900 such as literature and inscriptions are referring to Isai-Vellalar and not the Sengunthar.
Hope this clarifies the issue for one and all.
Venki 19:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  is simply ranting and diverting this as a dispute when in fact all the articles are academic research papers and books and talk in detail about the Kaikolars and their identity as Devadasis. There is no question of any ambiguity. The Devadasis originated only from the Kaikolars who are described clearly as the Kaikolar of terinja-Kaikolar padai in Chola empire. These articles are here to stay. Mudaliar 19:44, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kaikolar and Devadasi confusion and clarification

message: See this link given by the Government of India  where Number:75 Isai-Vellalar (spelled as Isai-Vallalar) are also called as Melakkarar (meaning Drummer in Tamil). See on the same page Number:88 Sengunthar are called as Kaikolar (4 variations). 
Is the Government of India trying to mislead people? This is as authentic a source that one can get. 
Look at Number 67 where there are 3 names for the caste Nadar. Similarly see numbers 95 and 97. Multiple names for the same caste is quite common in Tamilnadu. No caste is trying to hide anything by using multiple names. 
See the same for Tamilnadu 
See where IsaiVellalar are classifed as Most-backward-Class  separately from Kaikolar who are classfied as Backward-Class . These are classifications done by the Government of India for providing reservation in jobs. This is similar to affirmative action in USA.
As you can see Isai-Vellalar is never confused with Kaikolar in any government publication. 
So it is quite clear that the modern name of Kaikolar does not refer to Isai-Vellalar. However [User:Mudaliar] is intent on causing confusion to denigrate the modern Kaikolar because of the edit wars going on in the article [Mudaliar].
Now you must also consider how far the Isai-Vellalar themselves have come in Tamilnadu. The current Chief Minister of Tamilnadu Karunanidhi is from Isai-Vellalar. So they have risen to the very top of the power structure in Tamilnadu.
Venki 19:19, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is unacceptable. This is blatant vandalism.  insists on deleting heavily referenced sections. These are valid academic references which clearly prove the identity of Kaikolars. The argument is about the origin of the devadasis in south india not what they call themselves now. They are clearly an offshoot of the Kaikolars. These articles will not be removed.Mudaliar 19:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Distinction between Isai-Vellalar and Sengunthar from Government of India gazzette publications 

message: Let us not forget in our haste the core problem of this article. Who are the Tondai-mandala-Vellala alias Kondai-katti-Vellala? What is the true origin of Tondai-mandala-Saiva-Vellala and why are they stealing proofs from the TMV group? 
Venki 19:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who are the Tondai-mandala-Vellala alias Kondai-katti-Vellala 

message: Sekkilar who was the author of Periya Puranam" which describes the life and work of 63 Nayanman was born at Kunraththur in Thandai Nadu in Andrapradesh in the 11th century. He was a Minister in the royal court of the Chola king. 
Though he was born in a Saivite farmer family of Sekkilar tradition, the Chola king Kulothungan made him his Prime Minister on account of his intelligence, honesty and excellence. Besides, he knighted him "Uththama Chola Pallavar Sekkilar". 
Please see this article  on Fifth World Sekkilar Conference.
http://www.dailynews.lk/2005/09/09/fea03.htm
Farmer must refer to Vellala.
Venki 18:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sekkilar was born to a Saivite Farmer family in Andhra Pradesh 

message: Let us determine first what groups exist in Mudaliar.
Thondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellalas are stealing proofs from Kondai-Katti-Vellala.
Severe slandering of Kaikolar is going on even though everyone in India know it is the Isai-Vellalar who contributed to devadasis.
Can somebody give one inscription either in Srilanka or India where Vellalas used Mudali title around 10th century AD? Even Kaikolas and Agambadis have been using Mudali title since 10th century AD. All those proofs are being deleted.
This article is about Mudaliar title and not about who has more time to spend on editing nonsense.
Let us not argue about which famous person belonged to which group without giving solid proofs.
Venki 18:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  First determine various groups using Mudaliar title 

message: All proofs are talking about the Kondai-Katti Vellala and not Tondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellala . So we should add a section for Kondai-Katti Vellala alias Tondai-Mandala-Vellala. Proofs for each group should be credited to the proper group not to a group with similar name.
Nowhere is it given that Kondai-Katti Vellala were the only group to be given the Mudali title.
Venki 21:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Accurate academic references have been given.  is attempting to create an illusion of ambiguity with no valid reason.Mudaliar 21:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong Proofs and groups given 

message: If you can copy and paste all the references about Devadasis why not about Tondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellala? You are only delaying the inevitable that you don't have any proofs.
Venki 22:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: looks like somebody's crying, hehe.Mudaliar 22:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copy and pasting of proofs about Devadasis is possible but not proofs about Tondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellala - Liar Liar Pants on Fire 

message: Simple truth - No proofs no edits - Liar Liar Pants on Fire. 
Venki 22:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Still No proofs about Tondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellala 

message: Our common goal here is to write a collaborative encyclopedia.  Editors who get caught up in disputes sometimes lose sight of that goal - things seem to morph into a contest of personalities.  I'm dropping by to remind the editors of this page that it's your task to refocus.  You've got a mediation request now, which may very well be your last chance to solve your own problem before it goes into arbitration.
As a sysop who specializes in complex investigations and dispute resolution I've been through arbitration many times.  In the best possible scenario it's about as much fun as six weeks of root canal surgery.  A quick browse of this dispute is enough to tell me several accounts would quite possibly get topic banned (if not worse).
Wikipedia is not a circus or a schoolyard playground.  Please refactor inappropriate comments, take mediation seriously, and cite reliable sources.  Editors who cannot exercise self-restraint eventually get external restraints imposed upon them.  Eventually is pretty close to happening. DurovaCharge! 06:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serious advice 

message: As no Proofs are coming forth about Tondai-mandala-Saiva-Vellala, see you all in arbitration.
Venki 04:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Proofs are coming forth about Tondai-mandala-Saiva-Vellala 

message: I am new here so by reverts may be wrong.. but the bottom line is lets wait for arbitration .. not need to change stuff until then. Everything I have put is with referenced stuff. Weldingveerasamy 08:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dont vandalise 

message: Substituted at 21:44, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title: File:AR Rahman-2.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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thread_title: File:Sir ramaswami mudaliar.JPG Nominated for Deletion

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