Talk:History of the Hindu–Arabic numeral system

message: The page had historical information spread all over the article which was really confusing for the reader . Thus I added 2 groups "history" and "description" and replaced the word glyph with the word symbol to make the page more reader friendly. --68.130.206.24 19:43, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  reorganization of the page

message: Yuber, "we know" is improper usage; "we" is undefined, as other editors have pointed out, and is entirely too colloquial.  As well, one cannot assume that the reader knows this kind of thing.  Instead, the phrase "what is know in English" is neutral and accurate; I'm surprised you'd revert two different editors who fix this. Jayjg (talk) 00:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: What we know as Arabic numerals

message: Is there a reference for the quote, 
"Theorists believe that this is because it becomes difficult to instantaneously count objects past three." ?
I'm not denying the possibility of the statment being true; just that it would be good to have a reference for it. ---Mpatel  (talk) 10:29, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've read in the science magainzes (Scientific American and Science News) as well as in books on evolutionary psychology (Stephen Jay Gould, Steven Pinker, etc.) that it's 7 plus or minus 3. For example, when you roll a pair of dice, you can instantly tell the difference between a six and a five. Of course that's not a valid experiment since the dots on dice come in conventional patterns, but it illustrates the general idea. Do a search on the phrase "seven plus or minus three" and see what comes up. Zyxwv99 (talk) 19:26, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interesting theory. 

message: Dispute over relative emphasis of Hindu and Arabic contributions.
Interesting, I wasn't aware of the Indian roots to the Arabic number system.  I would say the anon's additions that keep getting reverted are a bit too editorial sounding; however, some of the information would probably be beneficial to the article, particularly some of the quotes and links.  HGB 04:32, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC

message: (PS: Nevermind the typos in what follows, which I've noticed, as I already resent that I had to write all this amount of factual correction on something that should've been so trivial and clear that I'm not in the mood to edit it further)
This page, as it is, is in large part a pile of nonsense. It looks like it was written by uneducated hindu nationalist teens and the bias is obvious. The page on such a topic as a numeral system used by the entire world should be in line with the scientific evidence and the scientific consensus and not based on who's more dedicated to spending their idle time reverting a page. 
Here are my bones of contention with how it, and if this comment is deleted I will be quite disgusted. 
- For a start, the claim "Arabic numerals (also called Hindu numerals or Indian numerals )... The term "Arabic numerals" is actually a misnomer, since what are known in English as "Arabic numerals" were neither invented nor widely used by the Arabs." Who came up with this nonsense? where is it in the scientific literature??!! Let's see, this is like saying that since English is an Indo-European language therefore the term "English Language" is a misnomer because the language was not "invented" by the English and therefore the correct term is some sort of indic language like Sanskrit or whatever, since that's its origin. Much of the internet runs on Perl and PHP, and it would also also like saying that Perl or PHP are derived from awk and therefore the terms Perl or PHP are misnomers because both are derived from awk so awk is the correct term and much of the internet runs on awk. Sorry, but that's such nonsense. The world does not use a Hindu numeral script, it doesn't even use Arabic (Eastern), it uses Arabic (Western), that's its name, there's no "misnomer" nonsense. The family of numeral scripts is called Hindu-Arabic Numerals, it includes Hindu numerals and includes Arabic numerals, the world does not use Hindu numerls, it uses the Arabic ones. What was transmitted to Europe were not the numerals used in India, it was the numerals used in the Western parts of the Arab world. 
- There is *no* evidence accepted by the scientific community of the use of zero as a number in India before the 9th century (Gwalior tablet, 876, see below), and that's quite late, and comes a century and a half after the Arabs conquered the Indus Delta region in 711, (and long before that Alexander invaded India), in fact, more than half a century after Al-Khwarizmi wrote his "earth-shattering" treatise, 825, in which he was aware of zero, whereas long before that, BC, the Greeks and before them the Babylonians used a zero symbol that's quite similar to the zero symbol in the Arabic Numerals, and which shape (0) is explained by the O from Greek words "ouden" or "Obol", or the shape left by a coin on sand after its removal. Any claim of Indian use of zero prior to the Gwalior tablet stone *must* be supported by scientific evidence, and accepted by scientific consensus, that would be a a major scientific breakthrough that I won't expect to see first on wikipedia.
- The 9 Indian symbols are largely incidental and of very little significance to their transmission to the West, what was transmitted were "new arithmetics" and methods of calculations for which any symbols would've sufficed, as the words of Arabic origin "Algebra" and "Algorithm" make clear, and there were plenty of Indian symbols the Arabs could've chosen from, or they could've even made their own even inspired by Indian symbols. The wikipedia article suggests that what was tranmitted through the Arabs was a ready-to-be-delivered system conceived by Indian mathematicians in prehistoric and pre-Islamic times, which is nonsense unsupported by evidence. Western and worldwide scientists and scholars make it clear that the Arabs, while they praised and acknowledged the elegance of the 9 symbols and preferred them, never cited any Indian arithmetics, quotes or statements (see A. S. Saidan below for an example of evidence), and that the advances they made at the turn of the millenium were, quite significant and monumental in the history of math and science, very new and breakthrough stuff. Any suggestion to otherwise must be supported by *scientific* evidence and reference to *scientific* consensus, not nationalist blogs. 
- The Arabic numerals and methods of calculation changed considerably from their Indian root. Either in shape, or in practice. The Indian symbols were made for sand boards, and they had to undergo significant change, and innovations were required, to adapt them to pen and paper. 
- India never had an empire, so whatever the origin of the numerals, it's the fact that they were adopted by the vast Arab-Islamic empire that included the land and seas from India to Spain and lasted in a form or another for a thousand years. Whatever numerals their mathematicians and people would've chosen or made up would've likely been the dominant now. 
- The claim in the wikipedia page "In the Arab World—until modern times—the Arabic numeral system was used only by mathematicians. Muslim scientists used the Babylonian numeral system, and merchants used a numeral system similar to the Greek numeral system and the Hebrew numeral system. Therefore, it was not until Fibonacci that the Arabic numeral system was used by a large population." is pure nonsense. In fact, it makes no citation to an evidence that supports it because, like much of the article, it's bullshit. Avicenna wrote in his autobiography that as a child he learnt the numerals, in the tenth century, from a vegetable seller. In the link I provided, which is of standard textbook material of scientific consensus in the West and throughout the world, it's considered a significant enough example of how widespread the use of the numerals by that time was throughout the Arab-Islamic empire that even a humble vegetable seller knew them. 
- The leap to conclusion "How the numbers came to the Arabs can be read in the work of al-Qifti's "Chronology of the scholars", which was written around the end the 12th century but quoted earlier sources (see [1]): ... a person from India presented himself before the Caliph al-Mansur in the year 776 who..." is ludicrous. It's shameful. The critical fallaciousness here is stark; it smacks both of ignorance and of uneducated reasoning, in fact, lack of reasoning. The numbers were known before that, in fact, before the rise of the Arab nation, and even to the West of the Arab homeland as the quote below from a Syrian monk makes clear. In addition, the significance of the event cited is magnified multifold out of context and slanted in conclusion, as the following quote, for example, makes clear "The Romans, who took over later on didn't appreciate Euclid. There is no record of a translation of the Elements into Latin until 480 A.D. But the Arabs were more perceptive. A copy was given to the Caliph by the Byzantine emperor in A.D. 760, and the first Latin translation that still survives was actually made from the Arabic in Bath, England, in 1120. From that point on, the study of geometry grew again in the West, thanks to the Arabs." Greek Science after Aristotle, Michael Fowler, http://landau1.phys.virginia.edu/classes/109/lectures/archimedes.htm. What's clear is that the Arabs had an organised infrastructure of translators, scribes, scientists and lovers of knowledge that served the world well. It's should also be clear that, as would happen whenever such a movement of extensive translation from multiple and varied sources would occur, that a lot of fusion and significant innovation would also occur that would create original knowledge, and history as documented by scientific evidence and scientific consenses, and not nationalist propaganda on wikipedia, is testament to that in cases such as that of the Arabs and of the European Renaissance. J J O'Connor and E F Robertson make this point quite well: 
:We should emphasise that the translations into Arabic at this time were made by scientists and mathematicians such as those named above, not by language experts ignorant of mathematics, and the need for the translations was stimulated by the most advanced research of the time. It is important to realise that the translating was not done for its own sake, but was done as part of the current research effort.
-  As made clear by Professor Lam Lay Yon, member of the International Academy of the History of Science, in her below cited 1996 paper titled "The Development of Hindu-Arabic and Traditional Chinese Arithmetic": 'There are no descriptions of the Hindu-Arabic numeral system and the fundamental operations of arithmetic among the early Hindu treatises. With the exception of the Bakhshali Manuscript, whose date is controversial, the treatises do not use the Hindu-Arabic numerals to represent numbers.'
- Paraphrasing the page I'm linking to; 'In India before the Arabs, mathematics as an independent discipline did not exist as such, and mathematicians considered themselves astronomers, for that's what mathematics were for in India, whereas for the ancient Greeks, and afterwards the Arabs, the guardians of Greek culture before the renaissance, mathematics existed and was studied for its own sake. Hindu mathematics, unlike Greek, lacked deduction, rigurous demonstration, proofs or derivations'. This is a very major difference, as "it was the mathematicians, rather than the astronomers, who ultimately ensure the almost universal adoption of the Hindu-Arabic numerals". http://home.c2i.net/greaker/comenius/9899/indiannumerals/india.html Project:  The history of Indian numerals Written by:  Berat Jusufi,  Jon-Fredrik Stryker, Vegard Larsen. It should also be noted, from the page, "It is now universally accepted that our decimal numbers derive from forms, which were invented in India and transmitted via Arab culture to Europe, undergoing a number of changes on the way. We also know that several different ways of writing numbers evolved in India before it became possible for existing decimal numerals to be marred with the place-value principle of the Babylonians to give birth to the system which eventually became the one which we use today.", which relates to the point I reported above that talk about the Indian numerals should be restricted to the nine symbols (1-9) as 0 symbol has Babylonian and then Greek origin, and the fusion of the 10 symbols was made by the Arabs. It also makes clear that there had been "changes" on the way of transmission. 
- It should be noted that the Arabs were not prevented by a nationalist worldview from using the symbols of another culture and that they had no problem with attributing the source of the symbols, as they had always called them Indian numerals and never claimed their origin, despite the very major contributions they made to the numeral system and method of calculations. It would be shameful not to follow their example and be driven by a nationalist worldview and other biases that would distort history. But remember, that however much you try, scholarship knowledge is based on scientific evidence and scientific consensus, not propaganda or activism. A revert war on wikipedia would not change history, would not change the view of scholarship, it does not change facts nor evidence, it would only shame this site and the people who use it.
csssclll
: I am big fan of you Loor99 (talk) 19:28, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC

message: The term "Arabic numerals" does not describe the full history of the numeral system, nor would the term "Hindu Numerals" be correct in describing them as we now know them. A more correct term would be the Hindu-Arabic or Indian-Arabic Numerals, which is used by historians and scholars. 
The nine numerals (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9) originated in India, before the rise of the Arab nation, and were already moving West and mentioned in Syria in 662 AD by the Nestorian scholar Severus Sebokht who wrote: 
:I will omit all discussion of the science of the Indians, ... , of their subtle discoveries in astronomy, discoveries that are more ingenious than those of the Greeks and the Babylonians, and of their valuable methods of calculation which surpass description. I wish only to say that this computation is done by means of nine signs. If those who believe, because they speak Greek, that they have arrived at the limits of science, would read the Indian texts, they would be convinced, even if a little late in the day, that there are others who know something of value.
This is in no dispute in the Indian origin of the nine numerals as Arab scholars never claimed to have originated them, and wrote many works in admiration of the simplicity of the Indian symbols. However, it was the Arabs, who had a choice of several numeral systems from the vast lands and peoples that had come under their rule, from Spain to India, who further developed the Indian numberals so that they could be suitable for practical and widespread adoption and use, and disseminated them widely thanks to their advances in arithmetics leading to their eventual transmission to the West.
For example, in his tenth century book, the Arab mathematician al-Uqlidisi showed how to modify the method of calculation with Indian symbols, which had until then required the use of a dust board, so they can be used with pen and paper. The requirement for the dust board was one of the main obstacles in widespread adoption of Indian symbol, as documented by As-Suli in the first half of the tenth Century, 
:Official scribes nevertheless avoid using [the Indian system] because it requires equipment [like a dust board] and they consider that a system that requires nothing but the members of the body is more secure and more fitting to the dignity of a leader. 
Al-Uqlidisi book was also the earliest known text to offer treatment of decimal fraction. 
A difference should be made between the Numerals, the symbols themselves, and their use in methods of calculations or arithmetics. The Arabs praised the Indian symbols, however, Saidan writes in his The Arithmetic of Al-Uqlîdisî, p. 486.
:Whatever the case may be, it should be pointed out that Arabic works give no reference whatsoever to any Sanskrit text or Hindu arithmetician, nor do they quote any Sanskrit term or statement.
Furthermore, Professor Lam Lay Yon, member of the International Academy of the History of Science, writes in her below cited 1996 paper titled "The Development of Hindu-Arabic and Traditional Chinese Arithmetic": 
:There are no descriptions of the Hindu-Arabic numeral system and the fundamental operations of arithmetic among the early Hindu treatises. With the exception of the Bakhshali Manuscript, whose date is controversial, the treatises do not use the Hindu-Arabic numerals to represent numbers.
Also, Of prime importance in the Hindu-Arabic Numeral system is the use of 0 (zero). There are two different concepts here, the first is the use of zero as a place holder (a mathematical punctioan mark), and then as a number.
It should not be assumed that 0 was the invention of the Hindu-Arabic Numeral system. The Babyloniann and then the Greek astronomers were the first known to use it. The 0 is thought to come from O, which is omicron, the first letter in the Greek word for nothing, namely "ouden". An alternative theory is that it stood for "obol", a coin of almost no value, and that it arose when counters were used on sand board, so that a removed coin would leave a depression in the sand that looked like an O. Ptolemy, writing in 130 AD in his work the Almagest, used the Babylonian system with the empty place holder O. 
In fact, the first record of the Indian use of zero which is dated and agreed by all to be genuine was written in 876 on a tablet stone found in Gwalior, near Delhi. For example, In around 500AD the Indian mathematician Aryabhata devised a number system which has no zero yet was a positional system. The Gwalior tablet stone is generally considered the first appearance of zero as a number in India. Many scholars believe its use in India was evolved from the Mesopotamian and Greek origin. 
By that time, Indian and Arabic mathematician were using zero as a number, though it took until the 1600 for the West to do the same. 
Though the 9 numerals originated in India, the contribution of Islamic and Arabic scholars to their development and adoption should not be underestimated. Further advances by Islamic and Arabic mathematicians to the practical use and methods of calculation ensured that the numerals became the standard system within the Islamic-Arabic world and then transmitted to the West and the rest of the World. 
Also, Islamic and Arabic scholars, just as they did for the Greeks, chronicled the Indian mathematicians and their contributions, so much so that even some of their errors persisted until the twentieth century; for example, Al-Biruni, 973-1048, wrote under the impression that there were two different Indian mathematicians called Aryabhata living at the same time, a confusion that was not resolved until 1926 when they were shown by B Datta to be one and the same person. 
There are two misconception or myths worthy of mention, the first is that the Numerals used in the West, and the Western parts of the Arab world are different from those used in the Eastern part of the Arab world. They are the same in essence. The main difference is a 90 degree rotation due to the way the scribes rolled the scroll as they sat cross-legged and wrote, later on rerotating the scroll to read it, though this practice was not universal, hence the current difference. This is evidence by the change from The numerals from al-Sizji’s treatise of 969 and the numerals from al-Biruni’s treatise copied in 1082, which is in line with the begining of adapting Indian symbols for pen and paper by the Arabs instead of the sand board it had until then required. 
The other miconception or myth is that Indian-Arabic Numerals weren't in widespread use in the Islamic world and were only known by Arab mathematicians interested in Indian mathematics. There is widespread evidence that this is not the case. One of which is the example of Ibn Sina, known in the West as Avicenna, who in his autobiography wrote that, as a gifted child under the age of ten, he learnt the Indian numerals and methods of calculation from an ordinary vegetable trader. Avicenna also writes that a group of scholars from Egypt who visited his father in 997 taught him more Indian arithmetics. 
This is well detailed in these page 
http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Arabic_numerals.html http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Zero.html http://bohm.fy.chalmers.se:8000/ostlund/WWW/ffp2004/prehistory/arabsiffror.pdf
http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/sinologie/eastm/back/cs13/cs13-3-lam.pdf
: Unfortunately your points are mostly original research which you have repeatedly attempted to insert in this article numerous times. You may want to consult this page Wikipedia:No original research  before making further edits on this page. --Astriolok 05:40, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: History 

message: This article should redirect to Hindu Arabic numerals (or Hindu numerals). Arabic numerals as a term is now only of colloqiual significance, and has more or less been abandoned by the historian community. It was, anyway, a European POV, since even Arabs called their numerals as Indian numerals. deeptrivia (talk) 13:53, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagreed. Please read what exactly wikipedia:NPOV. It is not European POV, it is a European term. You will hardly succeed in replacing it by Arabic or Indian, so please don't start wars here. mikka (t) 09:59, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry if you think my intention is to start any wars. Certainly it is not so. Looking at the general mood on this page,I won't be making any further comments here. The term Arabic numerals has already been replaced by Hindu Arabic numerals in academic circles. I understand that laymen will take some time to get adjusted to it. It's normal. I don't have any problem. Thanks, and I'll just let this article be the way it is. deeptrivia (talk) 12:54, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect 

message: * Summary paragraph (its content should summarise what follows below, and, if need be, should be changed to reflect its changes)
* Definition of terms. 
** differentiate a specific numeral script (eg, Arabic Western, Arabic Eastern, Devanagari) from the numeral system (ie, Indian-Arabic, which includes many numerals scripts), the rest of the article should maintain this, it should also keep in mind what the readers may have searched for when looking up this article and cater for those needs (eg, is the reader looking up the Arabic Western numerals script or the Indian-Arabic Numeral system?)
** differentiate the numeral system or script from systematic methods of computation (eg, there was a strongly implied and sometimes explicit assertion in previous versions of this article that since the Arabs used Numerals of Indian origin then the methods of computation they used were all of Indian origin - as such, not only that this is false, but it also ignores the Babylonian, Greek and possibly Chinese too heritages that they drew from and also several centuries to a millenium of significant scientific and mathematical advancement by Arab mathematicians and then Western ones. It also contradicts a consensus that the pre-Arab Indians were astronomers and not mathematicians, and their computations, unlike the Greeks, were not systematic. This article though, should make this clear, but still focus on the numerals themselves and not on methods of computations, for which other articles would be more suitable)
** The 0 symbol. Keep in mind Severus Sebokht's quote of 662 AD in which he refered to the Indian "9 signs"; he said "9 signs", not ten, which is in line with the scientific literature that the 0 symbol arrived to the Arabs from the Greeks (Omicron, Ouden, Obol, so on); it's also in line with the scientific evidence that "Later (after 500AD) Indian mathematicians had names for zero in positional numbers yet had no symbol for it. The first record of the Indian use of zero which is dated and agreed by all to be genuine was written in 876." From O'Connor and E F Robertson . And 876 is more than a century and a half after the Arab conquest of the Indus Delta Region, and more than a half century after Al-Khwarizmi. Also, differentiate between zero as a placeholder and zero as a number. The scientific consensus is that zero as a placeholder or punctuation mark is ancient (Babylonian) but as a number was much more recent. I feel that this page should concern itself with zero as a 0, as it appears in the Arabic Numerals, and refer to zero for zero as a number. It's also in line with "We should emphasise that the translations into Arabic at this time were made by scientists and mathematicians such as those named above, not by language experts ignorant of mathematics, and the need for the translations was stimulated by the most advanced research of the time. It is important to realise that the translating was not done for its own sake, but was done as part of the current research effort." J J O'Connor and E F Robertson, and also see my note suggesting we avoid the fallacious mindset of assuming a one-way of transmission (from India to all others).  
* Pre-Indian History (Babylonian, Greek, Chinese)
* History of the numerals in India before the Arabs (before Arab conquest of Indus Delta region in 711 - must be accurate, supported by scientific evidence, and free from Hindu nationalist activism that had distorted previous versions of this article)
* History with Arabs (before Khwarizmi (825), and then From Khwarizmi and after - must be accurate, supported by scientific evidence, and free from anti-Arab activism that distorted previous versions of this article. It goes without saying that it should be free from Arab nationalist activism, except that I hadn't witnessed any on this page, and no, I'm pro-science, not pro-Arab)
* History with West (Before Fibbonaci, then from Fibbonaci and after)
Please note the following: 
* Please, as much as possible, support your stuff with evidence, especially if it contradicts other editors of this article. 
* I will *not* tolerate links to nationalist, political, or religious websites, and I will *not* accept personal weblogs as evidence. All links must be to reputable scientific and academic sources.  
* The article should not assume a one-way mode of transmission (Indian to Arabic or Indian to all others), but should consult scientific consensus, evidence and expertise, which so far from my reading suggest multiple modes of transmission (the Indians got from the others - Babylonian, Greeks, Chinese, Arabs - as well as given to them). This article should be about the history of the numerals widely known as "Arabic Numerals", not a "weren't/aren't Indians great!" nationalist advocacy as it had been in previous versions. 
* As such, I suggest we avoid using "first developed", "originated", or "invented" without scientific evidence of actual "invention", and instead use "earlist known history". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Csssclll (talk • contribs) .
Sounds reasonable to me, although I still think it should be done on a separate page, it's not just the history of Arabic numerals.
OTOH, it would be very helpful if you could edit this outline to remove references to editors, nationalism, etc, as well as specific information that needs to go in. Provide just a simple bulleted list of issues that need to be covered and links to sources, which other people can add to. Zocky 00:54, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested outline, please consider and discuss 

message: You see, how it happened was that a horizontal line represented 1, a cross represented 4, a vertical line represented 5, and a circle represented 0. This is how the numbers originally looked:
  _          ___    ___           _         ___   ___   
 / \   ___          ___    \/   |/ \    |   _|_   _|_   |\/
 \_/         ___    ___    /\   |\_/   _|_   |    _|_   |/\
   
  0     1     2      3      4     5     6    7     8     9
Then, some of them got rotated (1,4, 5 and 9) and they developed loops to make them easier to write, thus changing them into the familiar form we have today. The only weakness of this theory is that I made it up on the spot.
The point of this little story is that you can't decide which theory is right simply by looking at the shapes of numbers and deciding which transitions make most sense. It takes serious historical study. Zocky 00:24, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really clear! Can you explain better what the point is? Cheers -- Svest 00:30, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, one consequence is that replacing the table which represents actual arabic numerals with a table that shows the hand-picked version of XY numerals which most closely resemble modern western numerals is both bad for the article and useless for proving anything about the history.</assuming serious question> Zocky 00:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Zocky, I'm not sure I follow what you're saying, but note though that the difference between the Arabic Eastern Numerals and the Arabic Western Numerals is a 90 degree rotation due to the way some scribes turned the scroll when they wrote sitting cross-legged. See this page and find (ctrl-f) the word "rotated". csssclll 09:10, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's possible that I wasn't clear enough. The above is an intentionally false "theory" which I invented to illustrate that it's not enough for a theory to be plausible (as the above would seem to someone who knew nothing about the matter), it has to be documented. Zocky 02:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The real origin of the Arabic numbers 

message: "Charles Seife writes in the book "Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea" writes that Our numbers evolved from the symbols that the Indians used; by rights they should be called Indian numerals, rather than Arabic numerals."
Though Charles Seife is a respectable source, and the quote above can be traced to him, though I would like to see the full context, I find a serious problem with its placement in the article, especially within the first paragraph of history. It's inappropriate, or it's at least ill-placed. 
Here's the reason. 
The keyword here is "should"; the quote follows the following form: 'factual description; counterfactual prescription', or 'a description of a fact, a prescription counter to it', and as such it is 'a verifiable fact; a debatable opinion'. 
I therefore find this unacceptable, at least with such prominence. If this quote is to be used, then it should be much later on, at the very end, and balanced by opinions counter to it in the debate. The article, and good writing in general, should give early prominence to what's factual, verifiable, and consensual, and defer what's debatable opinion till later on and balance it with with opinions counter to it in the debate. 
Perhaps we should put a revisionism section at the end to include such material. I think for the time being though we better focus on the facts, as they deserve out attention more, and this article still needs considerable work. I therefore would request the person who wants it included to also balance it with opinion counter to it, ie, why they should be called Arabic numerals, rather than Indian numerals.  csssclll 12:13, 8 December 2005.
:I will quickly weigh in with support for csssclll's reasonable suggestion above.
:RomaC 16:19, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding the Charles Seife quote 

message: These are examples, not a comprehensive list. While typing it I had the very off-putting feeling that I had already done this several times, evidenced above. It hasn't worked with you, you're still unreasaonble, but I do it anyway for emphasis, and for the benefit of others. 
* "The term "Arabic numerals" is actually a misnomer"
** This smacks of political revisionism of the worst kind; what is known in English as the Arabic Numerals are the Arabic Western Numerals, not even the Arabic Eastern Numerals. Yes, they are derived from ancient Indian numerals but nonetheless they are the Arabic Numerals. Look here, the norm is that when people in English say Arabic Numerals they are referring to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, those are the Arabic (Western) Numerals, they are not referring to १, २, ३, ४, ५, ६, ७, ८, ९, and other varities of Indian numerals, modern or ancient. They are known in English as the Arabic Numerals, that's a fact, I will not accept a revisionist statement that counters a fact so early on in the text the article, the article must start with the factual. I'll accept it under a revisionism section much later on, but it must be balanced there with opinions counter to it (counter to the counterfactual). 
* "... what are known in English as "Arabic numerals" were neither invented nor widely used by the Arabs.", "In the Arab World—until modern times—the Arabic numeral system was used only by mathematicians. Muslim scientists used the Babylonian numeral system, and merchants used a numeral system similar to the Greek numeral system and the Hebrew numeral system. Therefore, it was not until Fibonacci that the Arabic numeral system was used by a large population."
** What reliable sources do you have that they were not widely used by the Arabs? Why don't you cite reliable sources? Here's evidence that they were : The numerals though were already in wide use throughout the Arab empire, as Avicenna who was born in 980 tells in his autobiography that he learnt them, as a child, from a humble vegetable seller. He also tells that when his father, in Bukhara, was visited by scholars from Egypt in 997, including Abu Abdullah al-Natili, they taught him more about them. J J O'Connor and E F Robertson point out: He also tells of being taught Indian calculation and algebra by a seller of vegetables. All this shows that by the beginning of the eleventh century calculation with the Indian symbols was fairly widespread and, quite significantly, was known to a vegetable trader.
* "The first inscriptions using 0 in India have been traced to approximately 200 CE."
** Why don't you cite reliable sources?! Here, I'll cite some: According to Professor EF Robertson and DR JJ O'Connor, "The first record of the Indian use of zero which is dated and agreed by all to be genuine was written in 876" on the Gwalior tablet stone. This is also verified by Professor Lam Lay Yong, an an Effective Member of the International Academy of the History of Science "the earliest appearance in India of a symbol for zero in the Hindu-Arabic numeral system is found in an inscription at Gwalior which is dated 870 AD". According to Menninger (p. 400): "This long journey begins with the Indian inscription which contains the earliest true zero known thus far (Fig. 226). This famous text, inscribed on the wall of a small temple in the vicinity of Gvalior (near Lashkar in Central India) first gives the date 933 (A.D. 870 in our reckoning) in words and in Brahmi numerals. Then it goes on to list four gifts to a temple, including a tract of land "270 royal hastas long and 187 wide, for a flower-garden." Here, in the number 270 the zero first appears as a small circle (fourth line in the Figure); in the twentieth line of the inscription it appears once more in the expression "50 wreaths of flowers" which the gardeners promise to give in perpetuity to honor the divinity." The Encyclopaedia Britannica says, "Hindu literature gives evidence that the zero may have been known before the birth of Christ, but no inscription has been found with such a symbol before the 9th century." I'll accept mention prior to the Gwalior tablet, in fact, the article needs it and I'm planning on doing it once I'm no longer distracted by your nonsense, but such mention must be well-phrased so as not to mislead and contradict scientific consensus, and the phrasing must be limited to the exact intent of verifiable and reliable sources.  
* "However, it is possible that the invention of the zero sign took place some time in the 1st century when the Buddhist philosophy of shunyata (zero-ness) gained ascendancy.", "This book, which the Indian scholar presented from, was probably Brahmasphutasiddhanta..."
** It is "possible"? It "probably" was? And you accuse us of speculation?! Anyhow, why aren't you citing reliable sources?! And you accuse us of original research?! How ironic! 
* "How the numbers came to the Arabs can be read in the work of al-Qifti's "Chronology of the scholars", which was written around the end the 12th century but quoted earlier sources : :... a person from India presented himself before the Caliph al-Mansur in the year 776 who was well versed in the siddhanta method of calculation related to the movement of the heavenly bodies, and having ways of calculating equations based on the half-chord [essentially the sine] calculated in half-degrees ...  Al-Mansur ordered this book to be translated into Arabic, and a work to be written, based on the translation, to give the Arabs a solid base for calculating the movements of the planets ... 
** How do you know that's "how"?! Why aren't you citing reliable sources to verify this "how"?! Why are you leaping to overreaching conclusions to support your biases?! Here's what a Professor from The International Academy of the History of Science had to say about this : "Saidan states that his study was unable to answer in full how Hindu arithmetic reached the Arabic-speaking world. He goes on to say, “It seems plausible that it drifted gradually, probably before the seventh century, through two channels, one starting from Sind, undergoing Persian filtration and spreading in what is now known as the Middle East, and the other starting from the coasts of the Indian Ocean and extending to the southern coasts of the Mediterranean.” He continues, “Whatever the case may be, it should be pointed out that Arabic works give no reference whatsoever to any Sanskrit text or Hindu arithmetician, nor do they quote any Sanskrit term or statement.”" And Saidan is a widely-cited and authoritative expert on the topic. csssclll 9 December 2005
:: Do you even know what a misnomer is? Does not sound like it based on what you are writing. I suspect you do not fully understand the text in the article and you are mis-reading what it says.  --Vertaloni 23:42, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why aren't you discussing this point-by-point like I did? That's what someone with an honest content dispute would do. Why aren't you citing reliable sources for your points, point-by-point, like I did? I am sick of your one-liners and lies. Why aren't you abiding by wikipedia policies that "content must be based on verifiable sources"; Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia: Cite sources, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:Reliable sources? I have gone to dispropotionate lengths to point out to you the errors of your ways. That's it. I gave you more than enough chance to get reasonable. I won't be wasting time on you anymore. csssclll 00:01, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vertaloni, examples of errors in your version 

message: I split out the history section into History of Indian and Arabic numerals. Please move any useful bits of discussion to that article's talk page and continue this debate there.
Zocky 02:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely not , you do not take actions like that without significant consensus. --Astriolok 04:08, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Astriolok, please use the edit summary properly. You just marked it with a minor. Cheers -- Svest 04:13, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  History is now in its own article 

message: I don't agree or disagree with the user's actual claims, but csssclll has brought up this whole thing in a slashdot comment, which has received a high rating. --Random|832 03:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I did, if Wikipedia can not be trusted with something as simple as, quite literally, 1, 2, 3, then it has a very serious problem, and the slashdot article happened to be just about this. I do not give importance to a comment receiving a high or low rating on slashdot as that can too often be just a measure of the biases of some modders. I think I have abided by wikipedia policies that content must be based on verifiable sources and the others who caused me much inconvenience haven't. Wikipedia is a public resource and I see no reason why I should shy from making this issue public when it's ontopic on another site and a poignant example of a problem. (20:39, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slashdotted 

message: These are examples, not a comprehensive list. While typing it I had the very off-putting feeling that I had already done this several times, evidenced here. It hasn't worked with you, you're still unreasaonble, but I do it anyway for emphasis, and for the benefit of others. 
* "The term "Arabic numerals" is actually a misnomer"
** This smacks of political revisionism of the worst kind; what is known in English as the Arabic Numerals are the Arabic Western Numerals, not even the Arabic Eastern Numerals. Yes, they are derived from ancient Indian numerals but nonetheless they are the Arabic Numerals. Look here, the norm is that when people in English say Arabic Numerals they are referring to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, those are the Arabic (Western) Numerals, they are not referring to १, २, ३, ४, ५, ६, ७, ८, ९, and other varities of Indian numerals, modern or ancient. They are known in English as the Arabic Numerals, that's a fact, I will not accept a revisionist statement that counters a fact so early on in the text the article, the article must start with the factual. I'll accept it under a revisionism section much later on, but it must be balanced there with opinions counter to it (counter to the counterfactual). 
* "... what are known in English as "Arabic numerals" were neither invented nor widely used by the Arabs.", "In the Arab World—until modern times—the Arabic numeral system was used only by mathematicians. Muslim scientists used the Babylonian numeral system, and merchants used a numeral system similar to the Greek numeral system and the Hebrew numeral system. Therefore, it was not until Fibonacci that the Arabic numeral system was used by a large population."
** What reliable sources do you have that they were not widely used by the Arabs? Why don't you cite reliable sources? Here's evidence that they were : The numerals though were already in wide use throughout the Arab empire, as Avicenna who was born in 980 tells in his autobiography that he learnt them, as a child, from a humble vegetable seller. He also tells that when his father, in Bukhara, was visited by scholars from Egypt in 997, including Abu Abdullah al-Natili, they taught him more about them. J J O'Connor and E F Robertson point out: He also tells of being taught Indian calculation and algebra by a seller of vegetables. All this shows that by the beginning of the eleventh century calculation with the Indian symbols was fairly widespread and, quite significantly, was known to a vegetable trader.
* "The first inscriptions using 0 in India have been traced to approximately 200 CE."
** Why don't you cite reliable sources?! Here, I'll cite some: According to Professor EF Robertson and DR JJ O'Connor, "The first record of the Indian use of zero which is dated and agreed by all to be genuine was written in 876" on the Gwalior tablet stone. This is also verified by Professor Lam Lay Yong, an an Effective Member of the International Academy of the History of Science "the earliest appearance in India of a symbol for zero in the Hindu-Arabic numeral system is found in an inscription at Gwalior which is dated 870 AD". According to Menninger (p. 400): "This long journey begins with the Indian inscription which contains the earliest true zero known thus far (Fig. 226). This famous text, inscribed on the wall of a small temple in the vicinity of Gvalior (near Lashkar in Central India) first gives the date 933 (A.D. 870 in our reckoning) in words and in Brahmi numerals. Then it goes on to list four gifts to a temple, including a tract of land "270 royal hastas long and 187 wide, for a flower-garden." Here, in the number 270 the zero first appears as a small circle (fourth line in the Figure); in the twentieth line of the inscription it appears once more in the expression "50 wreaths of flowers" which the gardeners promise to give in perpetuity to honor the divinity." The Encyclopaedia Britannica says, "Hindu literature gives evidence that the zero may have been known before the birth of Christ, but no inscription has been found with such a symbol before the 9th century." I'll accept mention prior to the Gwalior tablet, in fact, the article needs it and I'm planning on doing it once I'm no longer distracted by your nonsense, but such mention must be well-phrased so as not to mislead and contradict scientific consensus, and the phrasing must be limited to the exact intent of verifiable and reliable sources.  
* "However, it is possible that the invention of the zero sign took place some time in the 1st century when the Buddhist philosophy of shunyata (zero-ness) gained ascendancy.", "This book, which the Indian scholar presented from, was probably Brahmasphutasiddhanta..."
** It is "possible"? It "probably" was? And you accuse us of speculation?! Anyhow, why aren't you citing reliable sources?! And you accuse us of original research?! How ironic! 
* "How the numbers came to the Arabs can be read in the work of al-Qifti's "Chronology of the scholars", which was written around the end the 12th century but quoted earlier sources : :... a person from India presented himself before the Caliph al-Mansur in the year 776 who was well versed in the siddhanta method of calculation related to the movement of the heavenly bodies, and having ways of calculating equations based on the half-chord [essentially the sine] calculated in half-degrees ...  Al-Mansur ordered this book to be translated into Arabic, and a work to be written, based on the translation, to give the Arabs a solid base for calculating the movements of the planets ... 
** How do you know that's "how"?! Why aren't you citing reliable sources to verify this "how"?! Why are you leaping to overreaching conclusions to support your biases?! Here's what a Professor from The International Academy of the History of Science had to say about this : "Saidan states that his study was unable to answer in full how Hindu arithmetic reached the Arabic-speaking world. He goes on to say, “It seems plausible that it drifted gradually, probably before the seventh century, through two channels, one starting from Sind, undergoing Persian filtration and spreading in what is now known as the Middle East, and the other starting from the coasts of the Indian Ocean and extending to the southern coasts of the Mediterranean.” He continues, “Whatever the case may be, it should be pointed out that Arabic works give no reference whatsoever to any Sanskrit text or Hindu arithmetician, nor do they quote any Sanskrit term or statement.”" And Saidan is a widely-cited and authoritative expert on the topic. csssclll (20:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examples of errors in this version 

message: Jesus H. Christ!!!  Take the name calling and all of this other crap non-related to the article somewhere else.  We were moving towards a workable solution when all of a sudden one or two people decided they'd drive any consensus we might have reached back into the ground and go their own way again.
If you want to discuss the merits of this article, fine.  If you want to call each other liars all day, do it through e-mail.  Peyna 13:13, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If we do not want to keep repeating this debacle then we will be more discriminate in the information we add to wikipedia and will not let irresponsible editors insert their fabrications into the encyclopedia.--Astriolok 21:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enough 

message: I commend you on the great work you did on this page, without reading it in detail or implying agreement with every point, but I'm quite pleased that you have cited a source for what it seems every nugget of information. That's wonderful, makes it much easier to discuss things point-by-point when we know where things came from. Plenty of thanks and regards. (also, please see below where I start the point-by-point discussion). user:csssclll:csssclll (00:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deeptrivia, great work 

message: Deeptrivia, there's important content that you removed from the page. It's verifiable and based on many scientific sources. I assume you don't like it but I don't 'think it's reasonable to remove content we don't like when it's based on good evidence. Please discuss as I would like it back into the page. Regards csssclll (00:32, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deeptrivia, the Greek 0 and the Gwalior tablet 

message: Interesting. I would say it's somewhat Indocentric that the spread of the numerals to the Arabs is under "Spread of the numeral system to the West". It's perhaps justified in that the numerals originated in India; the Arabs are west of India. It's also justified in that, while many lay Westerners can't seem to tell the difference between an Arab and an Indian, the medieval Arab-Islamic civilisation is widely considered a "Western" one by scholars, being essentially biblical and Greek. Examples that immediately come to my mind from recent memory are this course titled Foundations of Western Civilization by Professor Thomas F. X. Noble that includes mention of Islam. Another is one titled World Philosophy by Professor Kathleen Higgins that explicitly states that Islamic civilisation is a "Western" one and hence omits discussion of it. Also, many of those Arabs were Latinised such as Avicenna and Averroes, the latter appearing in Raphael's School of Athens painting.
I must admit though I wouldn't have thought of that, and my  suggested outline from many days ago clearly differentiated between the spread to the Arabs and the spread to the "West".
What does everyone think about this?
:It is obvious that "Spread of the numeral system to the West" means "Spread of the numeral system to the West of the point of origin", which includes both Arabia and Europe.  The direction West has nothing to do with the fact that some Europeans are unable to recognise differences between Indians and Arabs. You're most welcome to make subsections or even full sections "spread to Arabs", and "spread from Arabs to Europe" if you feel appropriate. deeptrivia (talk) 07:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spread of the numeral system to the West 

message: Deeptrivia, I have noticed that some of the text you put on the page comes word-by-word from J J O'Connor and E F Robertson but you don't put "" around it. Please be careful as while I commend you for using verifiable sources, Wikipedia clearly states that "Content must not violate any copyright". I have seen no indication that this content is in the public domain, so please have a look at this Handout on Citation, Paraphrasing and Plagiarism, go over your content again, and make sure it's safe for inclusion. Please note that the paraphrasing needs to be "substantially different", otherwise you would quote. Also note that, if you can, it's better to use as many different sources as possible. Thanks and regards. csssclll (06:12, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deeptrivia, be careful with copyright issues 

message: This article is about a numeral system, and is only supposed to talk about Zero as a decimal digit. A good place to put the history of the concept of zero will be the article on zero. Here, we can mention one line saying the concept of zero existed in Greece in XX century, and then go on talking about the history of the digit zero. I think it is common sense to understand that this article is about a numeral system, and that limits its scope on what can be discussed here about zero. If you have any justification for your lengthy discussion of history of concept of zero (which I welcome you to put in the article zero), please mention it here. deeptrivia (talk) 08:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zero: What is relevant here.  

message: "Until Al-Uglidisi's work, the Indian numerals and arithmetics required the use of a sand board, which was an obstacle to their use in official manuscripts. As-Suli in the first half of the tenth Century: 
HHHHHHHHHAAAAADDDDDOOOOUUKKKKEEEENNN!!!!!!!
:Official scribes nevertheless avoid using [the Indian system] because it requires equipment [like a dust board] and they consider that a system that requires nothing but the members of the body is more secure and more fitting to the dignity of a leader. 
In his work cited above, Al-Uglidisi showed required modification to the numerals and arithmetics to make them suitable for use by pen and paper, which was a major improvement. 
Al-Uqlidisi book was also the earliest known text to offer treatment of decimal fraction."
Also, why do you give primacy to Hindu literature over statements of scientific consensus regarding the zero, and then again remove this verifiable content that's based on reliable sources, now for the second time? 
"Babylonian and Greek astronomers were known to have used zero as a place holder, and "many historians of mathematics believe that the Indian use of zero evolved from its use by Greek astronomers". The 0 is thought by some to have come from O, which is omicron, the first letter in the Greek word for nothing, namely "ouden". An alternative theory is that it stood for "obol", a coin of almost no value, and that it arose when counters were used on sand board, so that a removed coin would leave a depression in the sand that looked like an O. Ptolemy, writing in 130 AD in his work the Almagest, used the Babylonian system with the empty place holder O.
According to Professor EF Robertson and DR JJ O'Connor, "The first record of the Indian use of zero which is dated and agreed by all to be genuine was written in 876" on the Gwalior tablet stone. This is also verified by Professor Lam Lay Yong, an an Effective Member of the International Academy of the History of Science "the earliest appearance in India of a symbol for zero in the Hindu-Arabic numeral system is found in an inscription at Gwalior which is dated 870 AD".. According to Menninger (p. 400): "This long journey begins with the Indian inscription which contains the earliest true zero known thus far (Fig. 226). This famous text, inscribed on the wall of a small temple in the vicinity of Gvalior (near Lashkar in Central India) first gives the date 933 (A.D. 870 in our reckoning) in words and in Brahmi numerals. Then it goes on to list four gifts to a temple, including a tract of land "270 royal hastas long and 187 wide, for a flower-garden." Here, in the number 270 the zero first appears as a small circle (fourth line in the Figure); in the twentieth line of the inscription it appears once more in the expression "50 wreaths of flowers" which the gardeners promise to give in perpetuity to honor the divinity." The Encyclopaedia Britannica says, "Hindu literature gives evidence that the zero may have been known before the birth of Christ, but no inscription has been found with such a symbol before the 9th century."."
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_the_Hindu-Arabic_numeral_system&diff=31618865&oldid=31587064
===Re:===
I clearly mentioned all my reasons in the edit summary. Here they are repeated:
# As agreed my mutual consent, this article is about history of the "numeral system." Information about the "numerals", like Al-Uglidisi's modifications of the numerals are supposed to go on the "Hindu-Arabic numerals" page.
#Since this page is about history of Hindu-Arabic numerals, its scope on history of zero is limited to history of zero as a decimal digit. We can give brief introduction of zero as a place holder, as I did in the very first line of the section, acknowledging the Greeks and the Babylonians for it. You have great information on history of zero as a placeholder, which I encourage you to add in the article on zero
#Regarding the Gwalior inscription in 876, we need to mention only once in crisp language that this was "the first inscription that everyone agrees to be genuine, which I did." I don't see much point in copying and pasting text from all sources that say this, and a complete description of all professors and their viewpoints, nor a lengthy description for the inscription itself. In my opinion, such text doesn't look very encyclopedic. 
Thanks. deeptrivia (talk) 15:28, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I spent a lot of effort to clean up the article. Why do you want to mention the Gwalior inscription more than once in this article? Any why do you want such a huge description of the invention of the "concept" of zero by Babylonians and Greeks (This article is about the "history of Hindu-Arabic numeral system").This article is not about what some professors think zero was not invented in India.  deeptrivia (talk) 18:35, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Clean up" your material, please! I have serious objections to the selective and very biased pattern of your "cleaning up". You want to devote the bulk of the article to disputable Hindu literature and persistently try to remove content based on verifiable, reliable and scientific sources that states the scientific consensus, thereby drastically reducing it in significance and even phrasing it in misleading way, as well as Babylonian, Greek, and Arab contributions. Leave it to the reader to decide, you have no right to censor what's verifiable and valid. csssclll (19:21, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I find myself fully justified again in saying that you're one of the most evasive people I met online; you use whatever inconsistent excuses to support your biases and actions. As an example, the information about the Uqlidisi modifying the "numeral system"(!) so that it could be used with pen and paper instead of the sandboard that hampered its adoption was very significant for the section "Spread of the numeral system to the West". Do you think had the numerals continued to require a sandboard they would've spread as they did?! csssclll (16:37, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Also, the section that you removed clearly stated "numerals and arithmetics", twice, which means a "numeral system". csssclll (16:43, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Numerals+Arithmetic" is not numeral system. I request you to please do me a big favor, and read the definition of a numeral system. Thanks. deeptrivia (talk) 16:48, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Could you explain that better please? I didn't understand how it is a modification of the "numeral system"? Cheers! deeptrivia (talk) 16:39, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Look, you clearly don't care about facts, otherwise you would've checked them, and you would've easily found this from a source used numerous times on this page and clearly cited "At first the Indian methods were used by the Arabs with a dust board...", and you would've known to cite factual reasons for whether Al-Khwarizmi was Arab or not, instead of the racial prejudice of your "Aryan" friends. csssclll (16:52, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I have read it many times over (I know this particular reference, which is excellent, for over four years), but I don't realize how changing the way numerals are written constitutes a change in the numeral system. I wikify "numeral system" every time with the hope that some day you will click it and read the definition of a numeral system. deeptrivia (talk) 16:59, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you "don't understand" then you should abstain from destructive editing. How is that you chose to delete those paragraphs about Al-Uqlidisi's modification and yet chose to keep "Fibonacci, an Italian mathematician who had studied in Bejaia (Bougie), Algeria, promoted the Arabic numeral system in Europe with his book Liber Abaci, which was published in 1202.  The system did not come into wide use in Europe, however, until the invention of printing (See, for example, the 1482 Ptolemaeus map of the world printed by Lienhart Holle in Ulm, and other examples in the Gutenberg Museum in Mainz, Germany.)"? How does this paragraph constitute a change in the numeral system?!?! csssclll (18:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deeptrivia, why did you remove this verifiable content?! 

message: I clearly mentioned all my reasons in the edit summary. Here they are repeated:
# As agreed my mutual consent, this article is about history of the "numeral system." Information about the "numerals", like Al-Uglidisi's modifications of the numerals are supposed to go on the "Hindu-Arabic numerals" page.
#Since this page is about history of Hindu-Arabic numerals, its scope on history of zero is limited to history of zero as a decimal digit. We can give brief introduction of zero as a place holder, as I did in the very first line of the section, acknowledging the Greeks and the Babylonians for it. You have great information on history of zero as a placeholder, which I encourage you to add in the article on zero
#Regarding the Gwalior inscription in 876, we need to mention only once in crisp language that this was "the first inscription that everyone agrees to be genuine, which I did." I don't see much point in copying and pasting text from all sources that say this, and a complete description of all professors and their viewpoints, nor a lengthy description for the inscription itself. In my opinion, such text doesn't look very encyclopedic. 
Thanks. deeptrivia (talk) 15:28, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I spent a lot of effort to clean up the article. Why do you want to mention the Gwalior inscription more than once in this article? Any why do you want such a huge description of the invention of the "concept" of zero by Babylonians and Greeks (This article is about the "history of Hindu-Arabic numeral system").This article is not about what some professors think zero was not invented in India.  deeptrivia (talk) 18:35, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Clean up" your material, please! I have serious objections to the selective and very biased pattern of your "cleaning up". You want to devote the bulk of the article to disputable Hindu literature and persistently try to remove content based on verifiable, reliable and scientific sources that states the scientific consensus, thereby drastically reducing it in significance and even phrasing it in misleading way, as well as Babylonian, Greek, and Arab contributions. Leave it to the reader to decide, you have no right to censor what's verifiable and valid. csssclll (19:21, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I find myself fully justified again in saying that you're one of the most evasive people I met online; you use whatever inconsistent excuses to support your biases and actions. As an example, the information about the Uqlidisi modifying the "numeral system"(!) so that it could be used with pen and paper instead of the sandboard that hampered its adoption was very significant for the section "Spread of the numeral system to the West". Do you think had the numerals continued to require a sandboard they would've spread as they did?! csssclll (16:37, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Also, the section that you removed clearly stated "numerals and arithmetics", twice, which means a "numeral system". csssclll (16:43, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Numerals+Arithmetic" is not numeral system. I request you to please do me a big favor, and read the definition of a numeral system. Thanks. deeptrivia (talk) 16:48, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Could you explain that better please? I didn't understand how it is a modification of the "numeral system"? Cheers! deeptrivia (talk) 16:39, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Look, you clearly don't care about facts, otherwise you would've checked them, and you would've easily found this from a source used numerous times on this page and clearly cited "At first the Indian methods were used by the Arabs with a dust board...", and you would've known to cite factual reasons for whether Al-Khwarizmi was Arab or not, instead of the racial prejudice of your "Aryan" friends. csssclll (16:52, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I have read it many times over (I know this particular reference, which is excellent, for over four years), but I don't realize how changing the way numerals are written constitutes a change in the numeral system. I wikify "numeral system" every time with the hope that some day you will click it and read the definition of a numeral system. deeptrivia (talk) 16:59, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you "don't understand" then you should abstain from destructive editing. How is that you chose to delete those paragraphs about Al-Uqlidisi's modification and yet chose to keep "Fibonacci, an Italian mathematician who had studied in Bejaia (Bougie), Algeria, promoted the Arabic numeral system in Europe with his book Liber Abaci, which was published in 1202.  The system did not come into wide use in Europe, however, until the invention of printing (See, for example, the 1482 Ptolemaeus map of the world printed by Lienhart Holle in Ulm, and other examples in the Gutenberg Museum in Mainz, Germany.)"? How does this paragraph constitute a change in the numeral system?!?! csssclll (18:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Re:

message: Is this a racist slur?! What's insulting about calling someone "arab"?! Why did you capitalise "Aryan" but not "arab?! What makes you entitled to speak for "Iranians" who "will consider it an insult to call an Aryan arab"?! What makes you entitled to speak for "Iranians"?! 
"(cur) (last)  15:53, 16 December 2005 Deeptrivia (→Spread of the numeral system to the West - Iranians will consider it an insult to call an Aryan arab)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_the_Hindu-Arabic_numeral_system&action=history
:Hi. I'm sorry you found it racist slur. I hear this all the time in my lab, which has two Iranians, and I was just echoing what they say, thinking how they might feel when they hear that Al Khwarizmi was an Arab. Apologies again. deeptrivia (talk) 15:15, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  What on Earth gives you the idea that the "feelings" of two "Aryans" who "will be disgusted" and "will consider it an insult to call an Aryan arab" (ie, racists) have any relevance to the epistemological method of this article?!?! And why are you associating with such racist "friends" and then again "echoing what they say"?! I find it quite unreasonable, given your persistent, manifest bias thus far and your careless "echoing" of such unambiguous racist slurs from your "friends" to "assume good faith" in you. csssclll (18:44, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Actions speak louder than words. You choose to work destructively towards verifiable content that doesn't suit your strong biases Talk:History_of_the_Hindu-Arabic_numeral_system#Deeptrivia.2C_why_did_you_remove_this_verifiable_content.3F.21 csssclll (02:41, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I am sorry if you feel I have any bias. I have repeatedly appreciated Arabic contributions to numerals. We can work on it. I have stopped modifying your content since many days (unlike some others, as you know), and am just trying to convince you to clean it up. I also supported "your" version (version 2, as it was called) for the numerals article. I gave you reasons for removing this material earlier, and accepted your criticsm. I apologised for stating that Iranians might be offended to read that Al Khwarizmi was an Arab, which offended you. I understand that it was a big mistake, and I apologise yet again. I request you to please forgive me, and I won't repeat this mistake again. Cheers :) deeptrivia (talk) 02:53, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'll accept that. I have no interest in animosities. I have not hesitated from praising you in the past as evidenced by this page. Please keep your biases in check. I'll remove request for comment on your conduct. Regards. csssclll (03:17, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate that! deeptrivia (talk) 03:20, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deeptrivia, did you make a racist slur?!  

message: please be careful in making a difference between zero as a positional sign in decimal notation, and zero as a number. Brahmagupta and his grasp of operations involving zero belong on zero, and are independent of notation. What we want in this article is the development of the zero sign (kha, bindu, etc), and earliest evidence of positional notation involving zero. This appears to be the case from the 9th century only, with possible forerunners from ca. AD 500. The text needs much cleanup, the same thing is being stated over and over again. dab (ᛏ) 18:10, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: zero

message: right|thumb|400px
This figure explain a “New Theory On The Graphical Roots Of The Modern European Numbers”.
Each number we use today should be read as a numeric ideogram and the numbers were defined using simple arithmetic: a) The numbers 1 (one), 2 (two), 3 (three) and 4 (four), were based on additives angles. b) The numbers 5 (five), 6 (six), 7 (seven), 8 (eight), 9 (nine), and o (ten) were defined using the knowledge about the abacus manuscript notations. The especial abacus used had a base-five/ten like the human hands.Roberto Lyra (talk) 23:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Small Abacus of [[Al-Khwarizmi]] 

message: Base 60, but key idea there.  Do we know if it influenced other systems?  Even if we do not, a note would be helpful. Tuntable (talk) 09:38, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, good point. We should investigate what influences there were. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:35, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about Babolonian system 

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