Talk:Birmingham/Archive 4

message: Surely this is POV or at least depends on regional dialect?  I don't think I'm the only Brit who pronounces the "ham" although I can understand a "Brummy" accent might not do so.  ??? Dainamo 19:00, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I objected to this in archive1 where it was apparently pronounced Burmingum. I don't think that or the more recent BIRming'm are correct or helpful to the article. Angela. 20:28, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
As I have said before every other encyclopedia I have seen has a pronouciation note added, so I dont see what's wrong with having one here. Especially to distinguish it from Birmingham, Alabama. Many other wikipedia articles have pronounciation notes like Towcester and Leicester. G-Man 19:50, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: The problem with this IMO is that many people do pronounce these place names differently, i pronounce it "BirmingHAM" or Birming'm depending on whom i am talking with, but i felt the need to correct a guy from London recently that pronounced it "Burmin'm" his reply was "Wot Eva" (eyes roll) I don't have a problem with it i guess but i can't say it bothers me too much! :)
Nick Boulevard 19:47, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronounciation

message: I moved this about Birmingham from Wikipedia: Featured article candidates:
Partial self-nomination, I think this article is probaby about as good as it's ever going to get. G-Man 22:23, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved

message: Erm... very confused, why has Mothers nightclub dissapeared, i wrote the article and Andy Mabbett edited and added to it (i think?) it was original material from my own memory i merely provided a link to a much needed Mothers site with minimal info? why has it gone? who wiped it? when will my work be back? .....
Nick Boulevard 23:25, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Mothers Nightclub

message: The present culture & Arts section takes up nearly half the article, and is to the detriment of other areas of information. I would like to move the current culture section to its own article Culture of Birmingham, as there is enough info there for a seperate article and it could be expanded. 
I was thinking of putting a short summary on the main page of perhaps a few paragraphs, with a link to the full article at the top, like is done with the history section. 
Does anyone object to this? I'm thinking mainly of you Nick seem as you wrote most of it. G-Man 18:39, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Erm not really but you could try looking at search engine to see if that answers it. G-Man 12:52, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: I was thinking of having a summarised version which included the most important information, whilst having a link to the main article. G-Man 16:30, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposals for culture section

message: Here is what I propose to put something like:
====Modern Music====
Birmingham has witnessed the evolution of a thriving music scene harboured from over two hundred years of classical, traditional folk, blues, jazz, rock, reggae, dance music, bhangra and hip hop. 
In the late 1960s Heavy metal music first evolved in the city and its neighbouring districts with bands such as Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, The Fortunes, The Move and Led Zeppelin. Early progressive rock and blues bands to evolve from the city in the Brum Beat era included: Wizzard, The Spencer Davis Group, Idle Race, The Moody Blues, Judas Priest, Traffic, and The Electric Light Orchestra.
Other successful Birmingham singer/songwriters and musicians include Joan Armatrading, Steve Gibbons, Mike Kellie (of Spooky Tooth), Jeff Lynne, Phil Lynott (who formed Thin Lizzy), Carl Palmer (of Emerson Lake and Palmer), Steve Winwood, Roy Wood and Nick Mason (of Pink Floyd). 
1980s super-group Duran Duran originated in Birmingham, as did Dexy's Midnight Runners. The late 1980s/1990s indie music scene saw bands such as The Charlatans, Dodgy, Ocean Colour Scene, WonderStuff, Pop Will Eat Itself and Ned's Atomic Dustbin who all eminated from the city and its surrounding satellite towns. 
Birmingham's immigrant populations from the West Indies and India brought with them new styles of music such as reggae. The groundbreaking 1970s band Steel Pulse originated from Birmingham, as did the mixed-race UB40, The Beat and Musical Youth.
House music has played a more recent role in the city's youth culture. Acid House nights such as Spectrum took place at the Digbeth Institute (now the Sanctuary) and the Hummingbird (now the Carling Academy Birmingham) in the late 80's. Some of the UK's most influential dance nights have evolved in the city such as Gods Kitchen, Miss Moneypenny's, Gatecrasher, Sundissential, Atomic Jam, House of God and the original C.R.E.A.M..
The Birmingham Hip Hop scene developed in the city in early 1980. 
A popular pirate radio station called 'Fresh F.M.' (a forerunner to the city's many present day pirate radio stations) broadcast from a tower block in north Birmingham. The station played hip hop and breakdance records and inspired a rap crew called Jump who released two records, 'We Come to Jam' and 'Feel It', as early as 1985.
More recent artists include electro dub creators Rockers Hi-Fi, Big Beat musicians Bentley Rhythm Ace, Garage/House band The Streets, Electronica band Broadcast, R&B singer Jamelia is also from the city as is Ocean Colour Scene.
-----------------------------
Hi G-man, sorry havn't replied sooner but i agree that popular music section is too long although the rest seems not too bad, i have trimmed your/my? popular music section (see above) and maybe i can lose some more provided the whole content will be available to see from the bham culture page?
cheers
Nick Boulevard 23:53, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed culture section

message: Birmingham has witnessed the evolution of a thriving music scene harboured from over two hundred years of classical, traditional folk, blues, jazz, rock, reggae, dance music, bhangra and hip hop. 
In the late 1960s Heavy metal music first evolved in the city and its neighbouring districts with bands such as Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, The Fortunes, The Move and Led Zeppelin. Early progressive rock and blues bands to evolve from the city in the Brum Beat era included: Wizzard, The Spencer Davis Group, Idle Race, The Moody Blues, Judas Priest, Traffic, and The Electric Light Orchestra.
Other successful Birmingham singer/songwriters and musicians include Joan Armatrading, Steve Gibbons, Mike Kellie (of Spooky Tooth), Jeff Lynne, Phil Lynott (who formed Thin Lizzy), Carl Palmer (of Emerson Lake and Palmer), Steve Winwood, Roy Wood and Nick Mason (of Pink Floyd). 
1980s super-group Duran Duran originated in Birmingham, as did Dexy's Midnight Runners. The late 1980s/1990s indie music scene saw bands such as The Charlatans, Dodgy, Ocean Colour Scene, WonderStuff, Pop Will Eat Itself and Ned's Atomic Dustbin who all eminated from the city and its surrounding satellite towns. 
Birmingham's immigrant populations from the West Indies and India brought with them new styles of music such as reggae. The groundbreaking 1970s band Steel Pulse originated from Birmingham, as did the mixed-race UB40, The Beat and Musical Youth.
House music has played a more recent role in the city's youth culture. Acid House nights such as Spectrum took place at the Digbeth Institute (now the Sanctuary) and the Hummingbird (now the Carling Academy Birmingham) in the late 80's. Some of the UK's most influential dance nights have evolved in the city such as Gods Kitchen, Miss Moneypenny's, Gatecrasher, Sundissential, Atomic Jam, House of God and the original C.R.E.A.M..
The Birmingham Hip Hop scene developed in the city in early 1980. 
A popular pirate radio station called 'Fresh F.M.' (a forerunner to the city's many present day pirate radio stations) broadcast from a tower block in north Birmingham. The station played hip hop and breakdance records and inspired a rap crew called Jump who released two records, 'We Come to Jam' and 'Feel It', as early as 1985.
More recent artists include electro dub creators Rockers Hi-Fi, Big Beat musicians Bentley Rhythm Ace, Garage/House band The Streets, Electronica band Broadcast, R&B singer Jamelia is also from the city as is Ocean Colour Scene.
-----------------------------
Hi G-man, sorry havn't replied sooner but i agree that popular music section is too long although the rest seems not too bad, i have trimmed your/my? popular music section (see above) and maybe i can lose some more provided the whole content will be available to see from the bham culture page?
cheers
Nick Boulevard 23:53, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Modern Music

message: Birmingham isn't the second biggest city. Taking the word "city" literally, it is the biggest
city in the country. Taking the word more loosely, it's unclear whether Manchester or Birmingham is bigger, since it depends on the definition of borders.
*The 2001 census is pretty clear on the point. Manchester recorded a population of 392,819 as against 977,087 for Birmingham. If you're not counting London as a city then you're surely taking the word a little *too* literally, I would think. Mattley 10:18, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Size of city

message: I've reinstated this. I think it's appropriate to mention Manchester along with the second city claim. I think a bit of give and take is necessary over the whole second city thing as it can easily turn into a generally pointless and inconclusive argument. Mattley 23:30, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever your personal opinions, it's clear that there isn't a factual answer to such an ambiguous question, and that there is significant dispute. NPOV demands that we don't make a decision, but mention the dispute fairly. (And we should never, ever resort to googlecounting). --Khendon 07:34, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Manchester and second city claim

message: Where does the "5 million in a 50 mile radius" figure in the article come from? --Khendon 07:46, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: 5 million population

message: Hello, I have made some re-organisations to the article, mainly removing the "Introduction" header, as the wikipedia manual of style reccomends that the introduction to an article should be before the TOC. I hope it's OK with everyone and I havn't messed things up. 
This is a good article by the way. Gem 30th Dec 2004
:Actually I think it's a big improvement, I wish I'd of thought of it myself, thanks G-Man 23:06, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Re-organisation

message: is this right title and should it be better immediately after film and media? feel free to alter :) Nick Boulevard 19:20, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Inventors etc

message: brum is 4% missing on ethnicity, have a look, is the remaining 4% irish or other decendancy or are all the figures wrong? Nick Boulevard 00:33, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: cheers gman, i'm thinking the remainder are irish!Nick Boulevard 00:37, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: You appear to have just added 4% to the 'White' total - people who profess Irish ethnicity are already included in the 'White' stats. The ethnicity stats as per the 2001 Census are available on the web at the ONS site here  and the previously quoted 70.4% white figure was correct (of whom 3.2% identify themselves as Irish). I've therefore corrected the figures as per the official stats using the 'top-level' categories available in the census (which, by the way, add up to 100.1% - presumably the result of rounding!). Valiantis 19:28, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm not registered at the site but the link worked yesterday - I followed there form the Council website. However it doesn't seem to work today. Try this one from the Council's website which should bring up a PDF document. This rounds to 2 decimal places not one and breaks the topline categories down into sub-categories - but the numbers add up the same. I don't find it important to 'reduce' the number of white people. I do find it important to quote accurate information rather than to make up figures! I didn't add the ethnicity stats box - it was already there - I have merely made sure the stats are correctly sourced. The terminology I have used is that of the census - my own opinions of its usefulness are beside the point. You appear to be implying I have some sort of agenda here. This is not the case - I noticed that the stats were incorrect and corrected them. As to whether it is appropriate to include ethnicity stats I would say yes for 2 reasons - firstly, most other pages on cities and boroughs in the UK do so - it is part of the standard template - see Manchester, City of Leeds, secondly one of the main statements about Birmingham in the article is "Birmingham is one of the most culturally diverse cities in the UK". The stats are the evidence that support this statement. Valiantis 20:02, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: I did answer this point. Firstly, the ethnicity demographics in the stats box is part of the standard template used for UK boroughs. If you wish to choose not to include such stats for Birmingham, I feel you need to make a good case for this exclusion - a decision to exclude something can be as much POV as a decision to include something. Secondly, if any article makes a statement about cultural diversity (or anything) and there are hard facts to back this up, my thinking is an encyclopedia should offer the hard facts. The use of the phrase 'Brummie and proud' suggests a strong degree of POV (in my opinion) - not a neutral approach. Valiantis 23:51, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: brum ethnicity???

message: should each festival section be merged into the appropriate category instead of a single area highlighting the events the city hosts? it's a bit pointless as it is because if you wnated to go to a music festival you would look under music first? or go to film and media for info on the film fest? Nick Boulevard 23:13, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've sort of half done this anyway, merging relevant links into the apropriate categories. Nick Boulevard 00:00, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: festival

message: Some photos have been added to Moseley by an anonymous user. They're not bad, but absolutely huge. Anyone fancy following it up and scaling them down? I have no idea how images work, sadly. Mattley 20:43, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Moseley]]

message: This article is getting a bit long again, I was thinking that perhaps the inventors section should probably go into its own article. G-Man 20:21, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Inventors section

message: The user at the IP address 195.92.67.71 removed the comment about "Brummagem". The comment was true, and is part of Birmingham's history, and I've restored it. We want histories to be full, warts and all. As the Oxford english dictionary says: 
1. a. Made in Birmingham.    b. With primary allusion to counterfeit groats coined there in 17th c.; but, also, with later reference to plated and lacquered wares still manufactured there: Counterfeit, sham, not genuine; of the nature of a cheap or showy imitation.
 
1637 Calendar Dom. St. Papers 105 Those swords which he..pretends to be blades of his owne makeing are all bromedgham blades & forraine blades. 1688 T. BROWN, I coined heroes as fast as Brumingham groats. 1827 Blackw. Mag. XXII. Oct. 410/2 Brummagem Statesmen. 1853 LYTTON My Novel I. 120 (Hoppe) A work-table..inlaid with brass..in that peculiar taste which is vulgarly called Brummagem. 1861 A. K. H. BOYD Recreat. Country Pars. Ser. II. 47 The vulgar dandy, strutting along, with his Brummagem jewellery.
  
...and I've seen it in later use, in Punch from the 1890s for example. 
It's just part of the history. At one time, Hong Kong manufacture was poor quality, and Japanese. It's just a phase in industrial development.
*What utter nonsense, Birmingham was well known for it's desired gold and silver of extremeley high quality hence the Jewelry quarter, also guns and just about any other type of skilled manufacture eminates from the city. The quality of the city's workmanship has been exactly the same as every other major industrial or creative hot bed in the world... unskilled workmen will exist alongside the skilled, the two go hand-in-hand but i can asure that the shoddy workmanship was completely a by-product of the more extensive skilled industries and the fact you have likened Birmingham to Hong Kong manufacture and poor quality Japanese??? shows your bias i am afraid. rvrt :) 195.92.67.71 00:22, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Brummagem