Talk:Duchy of Lorraine

message: Being from Lorraine, I just would like to point out that when we are talking about Alsace-Lorraine, although the term encompass the totality of Alsace, it only refers to a fourth of Lorraine, now called Moselle. The other 3 "departements" of Lorraine (Meuse, Meurthe-et-Moselle and Vosges) always remained French from 1766 til today.
Also worth noting, Lorraine is one of the last big "regions" to become French in 1766 (followed by Savoie in 1860). Before 1766, It was relatively independant, and both the kingdom of France and the German Empire were considered foreign neighbours as Mexico and Canada would be for the US. Also interesting to see that our cousins from DOM-TOM (such as caribeean islands Martinique and Guadeloupe) became French before the inhabitants of Lorraine!!
Lastly, Lorraine never had a common language but a lot of different patois (French replaced them only during the 20th century through school education). That said, we can recognised that the northern half of today's Meurthe-et-Moselle AND Moselle (called Moselle before 1870) had mainly German-related dialects, while the southern half (previously called Meurthe) AND Vosges AND Meuse had mainly old French-related dialects.
As for the controversy about Alsace-Lorraine being French or German, let's not forget that nationality should not always be based on language but also on traditions/customs and willingness to be part of a country/nation. Alsace and Lorraine experienced the French revolution, took part in Napoleon's campaigns (and supported him and his nephew with higher percentage than the French average), and although the population wasn't necessarily French-speakers, it is generally admitted that on the whole, the population was leaning towards France rather than Germany...
::Ok, first you stress the importance of seperating these things out, then lump them together again. Alsace without doubt, after the first world war, leaned towards Germany and pro-french parties recieved few votes in the last election before WWI. There was also nearly an armed stand-off when France annexed Alsace after WWI. Of course you could probably find examples which support Alsace being more pro-french, certainlly this is true today. However historically the area was indesputably Germanic. Also their support of Napolean might have nothing to do with their identity as "french" but rather resentment of local rulers etc. 
::Regardless, I think it's unfortunate that we can't just put up some statistics here regarding books published in Strassbourg (what language were they in throughout history?). The modern identity of the area is not being contested, the see themselves as french, so there's no need for nationalist rants supporting one side or the other, it's irrelevant. 130.71.96.23 05:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Perhaps one should note that Germany/Prussia's main interest there was coal, and linguistic similarities mainly an excuse.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Codik (talk • contribs) 15:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lorraine: neither French or German... 

message: I just added suggestions to merge Lorraine (province) and Lorraine (région). I do understand the difference between the two, but in my opinion they can be presented in a single article. There is already a significant overlap, and I don't see how to justify listing typical Lorraine foods in one article but not the other, and discussing the regional languages in both (at the moment the information in the Lorraine_(province) article is wrong). CapnPrep 19:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It would make more sense to merge this article with Duchy of Lorraine rather than with Lorraine (région). The modern région is much larger than the historical province, whereas the historical province and the Duchy of Lorraine share the exact same territory. On Wikipedia we distinguish between modern divisions and historical provinces whenever the limits are different, such as is the case with Flanders (the modern federal entity) vs. Flanders (county) (the actual historical Flanders, smaller than the current federal entity). Hardouin 22:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case let's combine Duchy of Lorraine and Lorraine (province) into a more general article about the "territory" of Lorraine (because "Duchy" will no longer be an appropriate name for the whole article). I am mostly bothered by the overlap between the province and région articles at the moment, so whatever we do I think that all redundant sections should be taken out of "région" (leaving only administrative, economic, political information). For cultural, historical, environmental details, link to the "main" Lorraine article. CapnPrep 09:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I made a draft of what the History section of this article would look like if Duchy of Lorraine was merged here. It's at User:Tocharianne/Lorraine. Tocharianne 16:04, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: Anyone opposed to renaming this page to Duchy of Upper Lorraine (now a redirect)? The undivided Duchy of Lorraine is dealt with under Lotharingia, the Duchy of Lower Lorraine under Lower Lorraine, while this article essentially deals with the Duchy of Upper Lorraine.--Joostik (talk) 17:13, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Duchy of Upper Lorraine

message: I am opposed to renaming this Article to Duchy of Upper Lorraine (now a redirect). This Article should be renamed Duchy of Lotharingia, since this is the translation of ist German name, which is Herzogtum Lothringen. About this Region it is also talked about in the Article named Lotharingia. There it is clearly stated that through History this Region was in Middle Francia, then it was Kingdom of Lotharingia, and then it became Duchy of Lotharingia. Duchy of Upper Lorraine is also just one of two parts of this Region, not the whole Region. --The Nerd from Earth (talk) 17:38, 26 May 2011 (CET)
:This article deals almost exclusively with the Duchy of Upper Lorraine, which in 959 split off from the Duchy of Lorraine under the name Duchy of the Moselle. The duchy of Lorraine continued until being declared defunct in 1190. It was only retrospectively named "Lower-Lorraine". In fact the title "Duke of Lotharingia" continued being used by the dukes of Brabant until the end of the ancien régime. Only in the 15th century when the duchy of the Moselle came into the possession of the dukes of Anjou it became called "Lorraine"  again, retrospectively "Upper-Lorraine" to distinguish from the original duchy. Eventually the name went to the modern French region, which is only a small part of the original Lotharingia, which reached as far as Frisia.--Joostik (talk) 09:26, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Duchy of Lotharingia

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I think Lorraine is a confusing term for the period covered by most of this article, and not the one normally used by historians writing in English. Lotharingia would be better? For the time being WP is inconsistent, but I think most better articles also use Lotharingia. I'll post a few such messages on articles where I notice examples. As a second problem though, perhaps caused by this confusion, the article pastes in snippets of information from a much later period where the term Lorraine would be more conventional.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:06, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article name and approach 

message: What is the demonym for the DUCHY, (only) Lorrainian, or (still/also) Lotharingian? Or does it only depend on whom you ask, Germanophiles or Francophiles?
Here is the right page to ask the question, as Lotharingia is timewise much closer to the duchy, but I have also initiated a similar discussion with regard to the REGION on the appropriate page, pls coordinate if needed. Arminden (talk) 13:01, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demonym?