Talk:Guardian Angels

message: The text regarding Germany is irrelevant.  Unlike the German style of preemptive self-defense (i.e., the invasion of Poland and Russia) the Angels do not practice preemptive self-defense.  We provide medical assistance to those in need on the street and call the police if we see a crime occurring like a group of thugs beating up a gay person.  We stop gangs and thugs from oppressing and persecuting others, not the other way around.  
Once again someone is trying to compare the Angels to nazis or fascists or whatever, and this is once again pure libel.  I could go to the Boy Scouts page and say, the Boy Scouts look like Hitler Youth.  I could go to the page on Islam and say Muslims all act like terrorists.  How could all that possibly help advance knowledge and understanding which Wikipedia is intended for?  Once again, this is not a forum for disgruntled, chip-on-the-shoulder, pissed off adolescents who are trying to blame the world for their parents neglect or abuse.  Wikipedia is supposed to help fight myths, disinformation, misinformation, propaganda, and igornant conjecture.  Hey the Guardian Angels started out from a McDonalds store, how bout add that McDonalds is a fascist corporate mogul trying to poison the world and their Big Macs are made of pigeons and rats.  Real mature, about as mature as comparing Angels to German neonazis and Japanese yakuza.  GROW UP!!!
:Yakuza?  Nah, you guys are all big pussies, the Yakuza are all hard-pipe-hittin' niggaz!  64.231.14.235 00:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Really? Take a look at this video. "Self defense" means taking down some harmless old guy and putting two armlocks on him, because he was trying to walk away, then charging him with battery. The guy taking the video says he took a swing at them, but there's no evidence of that. On the video he said the "assault" happened down on the train platform, but on this YouTube page it says it happened just before they detained him -- and neither "assault" is captured on film. The page is full of claims of "self-defense". Negative comments are simply deleted. If you don't want to be accused of being fascists, how about not pulling stuff like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMC9djQ1nw0 --Mujokan (talk) 18:47, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Nazis

message: Yet again I need to clarify my view, I only agree in so far as to say that if someone places inaccurate information then DELETE it unless it is a clearly stated as a personal opinion.  Otherwise, you are advocating CENSORSHIP.  BE CAREFUL, for one may become the very evil one is trying to fight!
" New York ...city then known as the crime capital of the world " . Please , this is just plain stupid . Anyone who has bothered to spend a little reading news archives and encyclopedias will see New York has never been close " the crime capital of the world." Whatever.
=== NPOV ===
added npov to this article. there is virtually no treatment of criticisms of the ga except for a short statement about the mayor of detroit. frymaster 21:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 207.228.15.21, you seem quite offended by the NPOV-check tag and I expect you will take it off as many times as I (or previous people) try to put it up.  So..what can I do?  But wikipedia articles shouldn't properly be the "turf" of an overinterested user..Dan Carkner 01:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is not about Nazis it´s about inaccurate information 

message: added npov to this article. there is virtually no treatment of criticisms of the ga except for a short statement about the mayor of detroit. frymaster 21:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 207.228.15.21, you seem quite offended by the NPOV-check tag and I expect you will take it off as many times as I (or previous people) try to put it up.  So..what can I do?  But wikipedia articles shouldn't properly be the "turf" of an overinterested user..Dan Carkner 01:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: "Some argued that the Guardian Angels were naïve vigilantes causing more trouble than good."  "[Curtis Sliwa] was accused of being attracted to media attention and publicity stunts. He admitted that he had fabricated a six criminal incidents "that clearly had not taken place" in the late 1970's and early 1980's, in order to attract favorable media attention."
Sounds like pretty harsh and fair criticism to me.  What are you smoking?
____
This entire article sounds like a panegyric.  Where are the discussions of the problems with Guardian Angels?  (No, one small paragraph is not enough).  Where is the contextualisation of vigilantism?  Where are the details of the problems the founder has had with the law?
This Wikipedia entry is extremely poor, and a disservice to the community that seeks information from Wikipedia rather than simply advertising.  There needs to be a section dedicated to "Criticisms", that is not clearly written by a fan.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.9.167 (talk) 05:12, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  No criticism? 

message: Can anyone point to any studies of whether the Guardian Angels have had any effect on crime rates?
There also should be references to studies of whether people feel any safer with Guardian Angels around. 
Lastly, the article should document the actual frequency of patrols, distance of coverage, and frequency of citizen arrests. Without this, there's no proof Guardian Angels provide any help whatsoever.
I really doubt they have any significant effect. They hardly cover much area at all, and aren't a serious societal presence, to put it mildly. They might have an effect on an incident or two here or there, but who knows? I wouldn't be shocked to find out they cause more problems than they help solve.
As to whether people feel safer, I highly doubt that too. Would you feel safer if a bunch of brown-shirt looking guys who conferred some sort of civil status on themselves to use violence where they decide it's necessary, started walking around your neighborhood?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.182.5 (talk) 03:37, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proof of effect 

message: Could people please start signing your posts? Just type four tildes at the end of your posts, or click one of the two 'add signature' buttons in the edit window. Anchoress 17:54, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Please sign your posts

message: Could someone please wikify this article?  Im not an expert on wiki format, but this seems quite off.  I'm disturbed that none of the arguments about the content have made even the slightest reference to wiki policy.  A group interested in law enforcement with a strong ex-military presence ought to have a wiki page that conforms to wiki policy.  The NPOV tag is quite well founded.  The page is obviously written mostly by members or ex-members, and the fact that a single attributed criticism has been allowed to sit on the page doesn't make it not POV.  Please keep in mind that adding criticism is not or at least should not be considered an attack on the group.  The strongest and most frequently made arguments on both sides ought to be given weight.  Every news article I've read about the GAs mentions that they have come under criticism from both police and anti-surveillence minded interests.  These criticisms need to be aired on the wiki page.  
"When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view." - editorial policy
"Self-promotion. You are free to write about yourself or projects you have a strong personal involvement in. However, do remember that the standards for encyclopedic articles apply to such pages just like any other, including the requirement to maintain a neutral point of view, which is difficult when writing about yourself." WP:NOT
To pre-empt the inevitable.  I am not in middle school, I do not use wikipedia as a forum and I am not an anarchist, petty criminal or street gang member.  I am writing the same things about this article that I would about any other that struck me as this one does.
"The Guardian Angels instigated a social and political debate about the role of government and citizens in society. Following the rapid growth of the Guardian Angels in the early 1980s, city governments have increasingly reached out to their citizens in search of public participation and involvement in their communities."
GA's instigated a social and political debate?? as in, started one?? as in, before curtis sliwa no one had ever considered the possibility of having a debate about the role of government and citizens in society??  A list of famous people who support a group is not proof that it is influential.  A longer list of much more famous people could be gathered in support of scientology or anarchism or maoism.  Keep in mind that I am not comparing the GAs to any of those things, simply pointing out that famous supporters is not the same as widespread influence.
The external links page is also almost entirely GA chapter sites.  This borders on advertisement.  Im also a bit put off by what ive seen on the talk page.  It seems to me like some admittedly POV lines are being forced into the article by offering to revert as many times as necessary.  Keep the 3 revert rule in mind.  These lesser visited wiki pages ought to be as good as the more frequently edited ones, but in practice they tend to be full of POV.
And by the way, whoever thinks its cute to compare GAs to yakuza and nazis, the only people who look bad by that are yourself and wikipedia. 66.222.62.214 13:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikification 

message: "Since the organization is primarily involved in helping to maintain law and order, they are often viewed as a conservative or right-wing group." I do not like that only the terms "conservative" or "right-wing" group have been used to describe the guardian angels as "helping to maintain law and order". This gives an idea that only right-wing groups maintain law and order, and that left-wing groups are against maintaining law and order. This is not true.
Left-wing and liberal groups are just as concerned as maintaining public safety as right-wing groups are. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.154.17.182 (talk) 19:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Political Issues

message: "Since the organization is primarily involved in helping to maintain law and order, they are often viewed as a conservative or right-wing group." I do not like that only the terms "conservative" or "right-wing" group have been used to describe the guardian angels as "helping to maintain law and order". This gives an idea that only right-wing groups maintain law and order, and that left-wing groups are against maintaining law and order. This is not true.
Left-wing and liberal groups are just as concerned as maintaining public safety as right-wing groups are.--216.154.17.182 19:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Political Issues

message: I would like to request a source/edit for the statement regarding the Guardian Angels patrolling the streets and subways of Orlando in response to an increased crime rate.
Orlando does not have a subway/rail system.
130.134.81.16 19:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orlando Comment 

message: I don't know how one would go about quantifying the effect of Guardian Angels patrols, from a statistical viewpoint.  Anecdotally, I do know this: on many occasions Bad Guys in the process of doing No Good have run away from the Patrols I have been in.  From this I conclude that, at those specific times and places, crime was deterred. 222.152.24.146 14:31, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anecdotally... 

message: I hear there were patrols on the Glasgow Underground around the time the London patrols were common (and also were the London patrols focussed on the Northern Line?) - anybody got any dates or info on this  Zagubov (talk) 23:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Angels were invited to come up to Glasgow to assess whether it was possible to start patrols but they never actually started full time patrols (79.190.69.142 (talk) 08:03, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Presence in Glasgow 

message: The one photo in the article is exemplary, but since they have such a distinct visual appearance the article should have another picture or two. A few are available on flickr with appropriate free commercial use licenses, what do you all think about adding some more to the article? I just posted a free picture of Sliwa on his article, fyi. - Owlmonkey (talk) 02:18, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Photos 

message: I added a tag in the South African section, most of it is POV and not really factual.
The angels are in more towns than just Cape Town, I also don't understand the relation between a US mayor and a South African policeman.
The picture painted of South Africa is far from true and no verifiable facts are given about the angels and their apparent impact on South Africa. FFMG (talk) 04:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[South Africa]] 

message: In addition to being devoid of any real content, specifics or concrete examples it reads like someone's general opinion of this group with a bit of rambling about New York City thrown in.
Really should be re-written entirely if not removed.66.39.160.38 (talk) 20:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it should be removed entirely — the group has had some controversy as a group — but I agree some specific citations and examples would be a great improvement. Do you have some time to do the research and improve it? Thanks - Owlmonkey (talk) 02:31, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy Section 

message: The Angels apparently were thrown out of a housing project for the first time in their history right in my former neighborhood. I'll leave a link for a news article if anyone thinks its worth noting in the article:   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wakamusha (talk • contribs) 14:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  South Norwalk 

message: The GA is a fantastic organisation and I personally am a fan, however I do recognise that it can be controversial and do believe that its controversy should be stated. The main article is far from balanced and appears that anyone that writes anything negative about the  organisation it gets deleted. As a former GA with over ten years experience with the organization in both Europe and the US I really do believe that the article should give  afair and well balanced approach.  A section detailing the controversy of the group is warranted.  I would welcome this section and would ask current members to PLEASE NOT DELETE THIS SECTION. As long as information is well balanced and factually accurate it should be kept, this is not an advertising site for the GA. People are not stupid and can make up their own minds on what they think about the GA organization, by deleting negative comments you are actually doing more harm than good. So please, someone add something to this section responsibly and please I ask others out there not to delete it.   Thank you!
WARNING TO WHOEVER IS DELETING INFORMATION "THEY" DON'T LIKE ON THIS ARTICLE.  IF YOU PERSIST I WILL LOBBY FOR THE WHOLE PAGE TO BE DELETED.  BOTH YOU AND I  DON'T WANT THAT. I TRULY BELIEVE THE GA IS A FORCE FOR POSITIVE CHANGE SO LETS NOT GO CUTTING OFF EACH OTHERS NOSES TO SPITE ONES FACE.  Do you dare to care enough about this page? YOU DECIDE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.158.104.236 (talk) 02:40, 7 November 2008
: You are welcome to add a controversy section, just don't add your own personal point of view or pleads.
: This is an encyclopedia, so your section must be neutral and referenced. FFMG (talk) 04:01, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Main article is being used as an advertising billboard PLEASE STOP THIS 

message: Can we summarize the Canada section? It reads like an extensive series of newspaper articles about the topic. Lot 49atalk 21:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, it follows the inverted pyramid that all 'hard' news stories follow, expanding to a point about a graduation ceremony not being held in a retirement home because of trespasssing and then coming full circle again to the municiple government and their thoughts on it. When comparing the amount of information compiled about Toronto to the four other cities mentioned it's obvious the article needs cleaning up. Also I don't understand why there is so much focus on the perceived prejudice against GA's in Toronto, it doesn't breed a NPOV. Just because the city doesn't like the organization doesn't mean it's wikipedia page has to whine about it. 99.246.21.170 (talk) 01:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Everything between citations 14 and 15 reads like a newspaper article or a transcript taken from a news program. Just read it aloud. 99.246.21.170 (talk) 01:30, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Canada Section is far too long 

message: I'm moving the following unsourced material from the Casualties section until it can be properly sourced per WP:NOR/WP:V:
Frank Melvin was shot and killed by a police officer in Newark, New Jersey on December 30, 1981. The officer alleged that Melvin was running toward his partner in a hostile manner. Members on patrol argued that Melvin was approaching the officer to ask if he could help him.  The two officers were responding to a call about a commercial burglary.
Juan Oliva was shot by a gang member in New York City on July 30, 1983. They were the only two to die while in uniform and on patrol. Nightscream (talk) 16:06, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsourced material in need of sourcing

message: As per usual, Wikipedia references are incorrect.  '13 countries (in 140 cities) around the world.' mentioned in this article counters the stats in Curtis Sliwa's article of 9 countries and 82 cities,  Can someone please correct in both articles?207.38.156.111 (talk) 18:29, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Update them with what? What values are correct? Do you have any references we could use? FFMG (talk) 04:36, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statistics are wrong 

message: I find it odd that ancillary information, group casualties, is posted in as the first paragraph.  I really don't think it belongs there.  Can we move it down closer to the bottom?The Saxon (talk) 00:44, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: "Casualties" Placement

message: The article lists Boston as a city with an "established chapter" of the Guardian Angels. In fact, Boston does not have a chapter. There is an attempt to start one. Currently, Guardian Angel members from Bedford, Mass. and Florida are patrolling in Boston. See http://bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20101012guardian_angels_fly_back_to_hub/srvc=home&position=0.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.118.229.114 (talk) 06:23, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect Info 

message: In addition to the London Chapter there was also a Manchester Chapter in 1990's (since disbanded, I believe). Likewise there was a chapter in Malmo, Sweden ( met one of the Swdish Angels whilst interviewing the manchester and London chapters). A Liverpool chapter was considered but never came about.(79.190.69.142 (talk) 08:06, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: English and Swedish Chapters

message: The lead says, "The organization originally trained members to make citizen’s arrests for violent crimes" -- the implication being that they no longer do so.  The article would benefit from further details about when or why this training may have changed. 174.24.62.59 (talk) 05:07, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citizen's arrests? 

message: I am a long-time NYer and I understood that the GA NEVER solicit contributions from riders on the subway.  Does anyone know if this is correct?  Can someone find a reliable source?  Rip-off artists often used to dress up as GA members and request money from riders, but I understood the actual GA never do.  HandsomeMrToad (talk) 03:18, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Does GA solicit contributions from subway riders?

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on Guardian Angels. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101125061029/http://guardianangels.org/chapters.php to http://www.guardianangels.org/chapters.php
*Added  tag to http://www.japantoday.com/jp/feature/954
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160303174522/http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm198889/cmhansrd/1989-01-30/Writtens-1.html to http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm198889/cmhansrd/1989-01-30/Writtens-1.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080328215534/http://www.shellseeker.co.za/ga.html to http://www.shellseeker.co.za/ga.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080828152554/http://www.tangsoodosa.com/guardian_angels_potchefstroom.htm to http://www.tangsoodosa.com/guardian_angels_potchefstroom.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080605205208/http://www.guardianangels.org/safety_full.php to http://www.guardianangels.org/safety_full.php
*Added  tag to http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/Front/882168.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080321204235/http://greenbay-guardianangels.com/History.aspx to http://greenbay-guardianangels.com/History.aspx
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 23:01, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I have found a reliable source (NY Times) which confirms: real members of the Guardian Angels DO NOT ask for money on the subways.  Since they the organization may be making a comeback, readers need to know this.  If someone on the subway claims that he is a member and asks for money, he (or she) is lying.  HandsomeMrToad (talk) 05:39, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  UPDATE: Real members of the Guardian Angels do not solicit money on the subway 

message: There was a large removal of content in the pop culture section, saying it was unreferenced. Most of the entries did have links to the subjects, but they're not technically referenced. I will try and provide some references with the caveat that I know little to nothing about the subject(s). Ifnord (talk) 16:37, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of pop culture references 

message: First item in References shows "guiardanangels.org", when it should have "guardianangels.org".  The letter 'i' needs to be moved to the correct place.  Actual hyperlink seems to work ok.  Dunno how to edit the Reflist or I'd take care of it.
thipdar@comcast.net
2601:648:8402:88F0:3849:3413:B4EF:76BF (talk) 16:46, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing this out. I have fixed it. Willbb234Talk (please  me in replies) 19:06, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reflist has typo in first item 

message: Maybe in controversies or history something could be added about the shooting of Frank Melvin? It was a pretty significant issue when it happened. The Clash even wrote a song about it (Red Angel Dragnet). 74.135.229.202 (talk) 02:27, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frank Melvin Shooting