Talk:Leonard Harrison State Park

message: I found this 1999 DCNR press release here on design work for new wash house and toilet facilities at the park. Since this is government work, it would likely take several years for the actual construction after this. I will keep looking, Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 23:19, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good finds. I agree that it may have taken a long time getting done. The wheels of government progress can be very slow. Dincher (talk) 01:13, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New facilities 

message: I reread the article and have thought about it in comparison to the PA state park FAs (especially Black Mo and Worlds End) and have a rough list of things to do to get this ready for FAC. Feel free to add new things or strike things that are done.
*Expand the lead (one of the last things to do)
*Make a Geology section - add / merge the Grand Canyon section there. Here is the PA trail of Geology guide for Leonard Harrison and Colton Point: 
::Done. Could add more if needed. Dincher (talk) 22:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have much more on Geology from Owlett to add still Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 03:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hopefully there is some good stuff here --Dincher (talk) 00:00, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good - hope it is a WP:RS. I found this with lots of history from the DCNR's PArk Spotlight  and part two . Owlett's book has a ton of stuff - I need to read it carefully and take notes. I alos have a book on Native AMerican Paths in PA that has the Pine Creek Path in it. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 00:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Started on this. Added general info about the deer repopulation, looking for bears, turkeys, etc. "Hunting" for this info on the game commission website. Dincher (talk) 02:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Found some info about the reintroduction of fishers and added it. Not sure what else to add. Don't want too much. Dincher (talk) 22:50, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The ecology section is now very similar to the same section at Worlds End State Park. We need to add parts about the trees. I am having trouble finding reliable sources, but I am pretty sure the trees, etc., pretty much the same at Worlds End. --Dincher (talk) 23:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks good, but I wonder if Black Mo wouldn't be a better model, since there is also a state park natural area there? Owlett also has a lot on extinct animals in the Gorge, which could be added here. Owlett and Dillon have some on the forest as well - what has grown back has more hardwoods than what was cut down. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 00:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I will look into adding the state park natural area info tomorrow or you can do it sooner if you want. Dincher (talk) 00:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I researched it last night and will add it now. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 10:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Good. I was a seriously confused little boy when I thought that the real Grand Canyon was near Wellsboro. =) Dincher (talk) 00:11, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

text: It would makes lots of sense. We need to do it. This page is getting confusing! Dincher (talk) 02:57, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  FAC to do list 

message: The DCNR web page for the park says Ansonia means large meadows in an unspecified Native American language. Owlett's book mentions the large meadows there, however it says that the village is named for Anson Greene Phelps, one of the founders of Phelps Dodge. Donehoo's book on Indian Place Names and the Susquehanna River Basin Commission names page do not list Ansonia as a Native word (or at all). I am inclined not to mention the source of the name in this article, since it is not clear. Is this OK? 
I also drove past the Tioga State Forest headquarters - it is not in the park after all (my mistake) but off of PA 287 south of Wellsboro near Nessmuk Lake. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 21:20, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ansonia really doesn't sound like an Indian word, does it? Sounds like it was named for somebody named Anson. I think Owlett would be a better source on this matter. He would be more inclined to seek out the truth than to just make a quick and dirty decision. --Dincher (talk) 23:15, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ansonia and Tioga SF HQ  

message: Here is the draft base map - I will add labels, but does this look OK? Same color scheme as Black Mo and Worlds End maps. The rail trail is dark green along Pine Creek. Should I add other trails? Ivory is state park, green is Tioga State Forest, and brown is private property. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 00:59, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to see the Turkey Path and West Rim Trail added. Otherwise it looks good. Dincher (talk) 01:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I was afraid you'd say that ;-) I will add them, but it may take me a day or two. The final map will probablky be cropped some - less of the land around the parks, which will also make the parks look larger in the same size map. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 01:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool beans. Good night. Dincher (talk) 03:17, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: BAse map is done - tried trails in orange for better contrast. IF this works will go back and change Worlds End Map. Whaddaya think? Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 20:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The new map looks good. I don't know if we need to change the Worlds End Map or not. I think you said it looked to crowded with trails on it. Dincher (talk) 22:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's the labeled and cropped map - I was bold and added it to both parks. Worlds End has one trail (Loyalsock) shown - I think the orange shows up better than dark green. I left parking off - not much room to show it and it is less important than other stuff. Does it seem OK? Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 13:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: The article says Harrison did not use a railroad or rafts, using a log slide instead. I think the slide was just to get the logs down to the creek, then they floated down to the sawmill at Tiadaghton. The location of Tiadaghton can be seen on this DCNR Tioga State Forest map and is too far for just a slide. I also reread the sources cited and do not see where rafts are excluded, but I may have missed something. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 21:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch. I fixed it. Dincher (talk) 21:50, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tiadaghton question 

message: What would you think of two side by side images of Nessmuk and Leonard Harrison for that section (instead of the current PHMC marker photo)? There is a picture of Nessmuk already on Commons at :Image:George Washington Sears.jpg and the DCNR has a photo of Harrison that could be Fair Use (although it looks like it is older than 1923 and thus is probably free). Geology and Climate section is done. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 04:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a good idea. I remember that the image of the historical marker at Black Moshannon was not a favorite. Dincher (talk) 22:16, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for uploading the Leonard Harrison picture. I resized Nessmuck and staggered them right left. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 00:13, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image Question 

message: The ref for the CCC worker statue in the park is the DCNR CCC Years page, but I can not find a mention of the statue there. I did find it here National New Deal Preservation Association but am not sure this is a reliablke source. It gives the date of the dedication (August 14, 1999) so I could do some newspaper archive digging. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 03:31, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I went ahead and added the ref for now. Will try newspaper digging if needed. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 19:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The ref looks pretty rough. Misspellings and misnamings. I don't think that it'll slide through. But having a date for the statue might not be all that important either. Dincher (talk) 22:20, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is OK for Peer Review (hopefully in a few days we can take it there) and I can look at old newspapers before going to FAC. I got all the New York Times refs in. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 00:15, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  CCC statue ref 

message: For Colton Point there are two great photos in Owlett that could be used for the Lumber Era section - one is a Shay locomotive at the point, with a nearly bare Pine Creek Gorge behind it (first choice - here is a badly scanned version), the other is a lumber train on a trestle over Four Mile Run - both were taken in what is now the park. 
Owlett has several photos that would perhaps work for Leonard Harrison - the best is a wasteland of stumps with a tiny person. I also found this  and this is from Asaph of a mill . I will keep looking, Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 19:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Great finds! Dincher (talk) 22:20, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks - Owlett has a raft and a log drive (from Little Pine in 1905) that are great too. I will have to scan them. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 00:27, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Lumber Era photos

message: Leonard Harrison's southern boundary is Stowell Run, so a very small part of the park is actually in Delmar Township - see the PennDOT Tioga Co map. Colton Point is all Shippen Township as is 99% of Lenny. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 19:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good find. Dincher (talk) 22:06, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I added it - thanks for double checking Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 00:27, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delmar Township 

message: I favor cutting the foliage section altogether. I really don't think that it adds to the article. Dincher (talk) 22:45, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I have a stat on visitors for sight seeing that I thought could be added there, plus a quote on the eastern Grand Canyon being prettier than the western one, especially in Fall. Plus there is the fall picture at top now. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 22:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The other thought I had was just to move this up into the tree section of Ecology (no longer its own section). I have to find and reread the quote and stats Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 22:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You saved it! Good ideas, especially with the fall pic. I say it should be moved to the ecology section. Dincher (talk) 23:00, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fall Foliage

message: I think it is ready for PR. There is still a red link, I need to find the newspaper account of the statue dedication, the dates need to be delinked in a few places, the hyphens and daqshes need to be fixed (there isa script for this). I am also sure it is overlinked in a few places and the names of species need to be capitalized, but I think the text and photos and map and refs are otherwise all ready for PR. Is that OK with you? Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 18:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's ready. Go for it. I am very busy IRL. Dincher (talk) 18:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I will nominate it and list us both. Thanks, Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 18:53, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ready for PR 

message: Re: "The Pine Creek Gorge, including Leonard Harrison and Colton Point State Parks and a 12 miles (19 km) section of Tioga State Forest, was named a National Natural Landmark (NNL) in April 1968." The convert template  is generating the unit miles as a plural. Here, "a 12 miles section" is grammatically incorrect and should be "a 12 mile section". -- Michael Devore (talk) 00:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing this out. Could you help me find just exactly where in the article it is? I've looked five times without much luck. I am sure it's there, but where? Which section and which paragraph? Dincher (talk) 01:09, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's in the sentence I quoted. The paragraph starts with "A 1966 New York Times article...", the subsection title is "Modern Era", the main section is "History". -- Michael Devore (talk) 01:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks as always Michael, I just fixed it - there is an "adj=on" parameter that can be added to make it "a 12-mile" section. Now to look at the FAC... Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 01:49, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template affecting grammar 

message: Not sure why this is happening, but the panoramic view of the Pine Creek Gorge is showing up in my browser as a only link to the image, rather than an embedded image, unless I cut its 1500px size in the  template down to 1400px or raise it up to 1600px. In fact, anything I try other than 1500px works in preview, including 1501px and 1499px. Weirdness abounds.  Is there a size restriction or browser blip somewhere? -- Michael Devore (talk) 04:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the first I have heard of it - I owuld just switch it to 1501 px as that works, Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 04:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure that's optimal. If I'm the only one who gets it, maybe it's a Wikipedia burp that a later cache clear will fix. Or maybe another reader would begin to see the problem at 1501px. There is too little information on the cause to justify changing to a +1 pixel count arbitrarily. Oops, saw you just did and I can see the picture fine. Hope that fixes everything, does for me anyway. -- Michael Devore (talk) 05:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I switched to  which supposedly has fewer bugs. Does it look any different? Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 01:57, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's different in that I have to use the scroll bar to see all of it, unlike the previous version where the picture scaled to the browser window. But I like it better this way, since it's a nicer view. Of course, we can't know if someone will now gripe about the scrollbar. It's hard to make everybody happy all the time. -- Michael Devore (talk) 02:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image botheration 

message: I was pleasantly surprised that this was promoted to FA earlier today. There are three five remaining issues from the FAC and PR:
#Image of Leonard Harrison may be free - once I hear back from the state park, I will post it here and on the image page.
#*I wrote them again after two weeks with no reply. Still no word back. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 11:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I had the same difficulty with the Pelamis wave machine. Everyone was very helpful on the phone or in person, but no-one would reply in writing. The rationale on the image page makes sense to me - he would appear to be a man no older than his mid-fifties. Ben MacDui 07:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

text: It's a good idea and it looks good too. Dincher (talk) 20:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

text: The suggested revision looks better to me. I also wonder if "LHSP is known for its views of the Pine Creek Gorge, and also offers hiking..." might be better. Its not as if fine views normally preclude the other activities. Ben MacDui 16:02, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks - agree "and" seems better logically, Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 02:16, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  FA remaining issues - lead sentence awkward 

message: ;Current lead
Leonard Harrison State Park is a  Pennsylvania state park in Shippen and Delmar Townships, Tioga County, Pennsylvania in the United States. It is on the east rim of the Pine Creek Gorge, also known as the Grand Canyon of Pennsylvania, which is  deep and nearly  across here. It also serves as headquarters for the adjoining Colton Point State Park, its sister park on the west rim of the gorge. Leonard Harrison State Park is known for its views of the Pine Creek Gorge, but also offers hiking, fishing and hunting, whitewater boating, and camping. It is  west of Wellsboro at the western terminus of Pennsylvania Route 660. 
;Suggested revised lead
Leonard Harrison State Park is a  Pennsylvania state park in Tioga County, Pennsylvania in the United States. It is on the east rim of the Pine Creek Gorge, also known as the Grand Canyon of Pennsylvania, which is  deep and nearly  across here. It also serves as headquarters for the adjoining Colton Point State Park, its sister park on the west rim of the gorge. Leonard Harrison State Park is known for its views of the Pine Creek Gorge, but also offers hiking, fishing and hunting, whitewater boating, and camping. The park is in Shippen and Delmar Townships,  west of Wellsboro at the western terminus of Pennsylvania Route 660. 
;Suggested addition to "Nearby parks" sction
The location is not in the areticle, only the lead, so I suggest we add the location to the article, specifically to the "Nearby parks" section, as follows:
Leonard Harrison State Park is mostly in Shippen Township, with a small portion in Delmar Township north of Stowell Run. It is  west of Wellsboro at the western terminus of Pennsylvania Route 660. The following state parks are within  of the pa
What do you all think? Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 11:25, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a good idea and it looks good too. Dincher (talk) 20:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

text: The suggested revision looks better to me. I also wonder if "LHSP is known for its views of the Pine Creek Gorge, and also offers hiking..." might be better. Its not as if fine views normally preclude the other activities. Ben MacDui 16:02, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks - agree "and" seems better logically, Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 02:16, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggested lead revision

message: Is the spelling of Chesepeake Bay in the reference a quote or paraphrase of an old document? It is inconsistent with the article's earlier and more common spelling of Chesapeake Bay, but I see from Google that some old documents use the 'e'-based spelling, plus the reference is for the year 1608, so there may be a reason to use it. -- Michael Devore (talk) 18:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Chesapeake Bay'' 

message: Looks good. I added a comma and removed a period. Two other minor thoughts:
* I suggest reverting the en-dashed date range in "The Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) improved access and constructed many of the amenities at Leonard Harrison park from 1933–1936, during the Great Depression." I think this got changed at FAC. The MoS addresses this at WP:MOSDASH. It says, " ...also the case when the nearby wording demands it, e.g., he served from 1939 to 1941 and not he served from 1939–1941, in which from and to are complementary and should both be spelled out." I see this kind of en-dash fairly often in articles and change it.  
* A word that I often change when I see it in certain contexts is "over" as in "Over 300,000 tourists visited the canyon". I see "over" used in this way in many articles. I don't know if the MoS has an opinion about this, but The Associated Press Style Manual says: the word "generally refers to spatial relationships: The plane flew over the city. Over can, at times, be used with numbers: She is over 30. I paid over $200 for this suit. But more than may be better: Their salaries went up more than $20 a week. Let your ear be your guide." Finetooth (talk) 21:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes to "Modern era"

message: I removed the image gallery fro mthe article and moved the best picture up into the article. Galleries are generally discouraged in articles, especially FAs and they were already pictures of the park office, park sign, and fog in the gorge in the park's category at Commons. I also need to check, but I think the new CCC worker statue needs a fair use rationale like the old one had (since the statue is a copyrighted work of art). Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 18:24, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image gallery 

message: Since the CCC worker staue is a copyrighted work of art, we can only have one photo of it on Wikipedia per WP:NFCC (the one used in the article). The new photo (lit by setting sun) is on the left and is now in the article. The old photo is on right. Which do people prefer? SInce I took one of the photos, I will recuse myself from voting. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 18:33, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer the sunlit photo. Very nice. Dincher (talk) 22:23, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I agree it is a lovely photo. I deleted :File:Leonard Harrison State Park CCC Statue.jpg and have added the right license and a fair use justification to :File:Leonard Harrison CCC Statue Sunset.JPG. I am removing it here since it is also fair use. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 23:10, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: * Ruhrfisch, sorry, by swapping pictures, I didn't mean any personal offense. I normally don't take pictures worth uploading into Wikipedia and was excited (maybe too much) to have found a few. Thanks for taking care of the copyright issue and deletion of your photo. Mrmcdonnell (talk) 23:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No offense taken at all - I am always glad to make articles better and the photos you added do just that - thanks again. Normally I upload photos to Commons, but because the staue is a copyrighted work of art an image of it cannot be on Commons and has to be fair use here. A bot would have tagged the other statue photo for deletion in a few days since it was orphaned, so I just went ahead and deleted it. Thanks again, Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 02:05, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: * Excellent! Can you give an idea of how to get those other pictures to the Commons? Mrmcdonnell (talk) 16:28, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *If you do not have an account at commons.wikimedia.org, you can make one with the same username and just upload them there. I think there is a bot that transfers free images to Commons too, but not sure how often it works, Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 04:47, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Preferred CCC worker statue 

message: File:Leonard Harrison State Park Incinerator.jpg|CCC-built incinerator
File:Leonard Harrison State Park Cabin.jpg|CCC-built cabin
File:Leonard Harrison State Park CCC Sign.jpg|Sign in park saying it was built by the CCC
File:Leonard Harrison State Park Turkey Path 1.jpg|I bet the pillars at left are CCC-built
An editor removed NRHP category from article, with edit summary pointing out no mention of NRHP or NRHP's NHL program, and correctly noted that the NNL program is different.  This talk page was tagged with Wikiproject NRHP early on, in 2007.  Are there CCC structures in the park, or does it include anything else that is NRHP-listed?  If not, the category dropping was correct and the WikiProject NRHP banner might as well be removed from this Talk page, too.  Great article, by the way.  Thanks! --doncram (talk) 14:43, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks to Nyttend for catching the cat and to Doncram for ctaching the WikiProject. I do not have any sources that say it is NRHP listed and just checked to confirm that the park is not listed on the Pennsylvania CRGIS site as being on the NRHP. Since it is not on the NRHP, I have removed the NRHP tag above. There are a few CCC-built structures remaining in the park - see the gallery above. Colton Point State Park across the gorge is a NRHP-listed Historic District as its CCC-built structures are much better preserved. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 15:44, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  NRHP status 

message: http://travel.usatoday.com/destinations/great-american-outdoors/51-great-places-to-hike/48780180/1 Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 11:29, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  stash 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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