Talk:Neocatechumenal Way/Archive 1

message: These criticisms however, often stem from personal opinions of priests as well as those who espouse an anti-Neocatechumenal agenda...
:This is a personal opinion, and the entire paragraph does not add anything new to what already said above in the same page. Thus, the paragraph was modified.
The so-called heresies...
:The article already cites its sources, including the one about st.Pius of Pietrelcina. You don't need to add your opinions in the page.
Recent develompents
:The entire paragraph contained pro-neocatechumenal propaganda, and was changed with facts and verifiable sources.
The Way shown as the only way to be Catholic, aspects like a sect, etc.
:These were accused by Bishops and Cardinals, always cited in the notes. Is this an "anti-Neocatechumenal bias"? "Devotion to the Virgin Mary" is not a simple matter of nice icons.
Redemptoris Mater seminaries are producing many of the Roman Catholic Church's new priests
:This is incorrect. Redemptoris Mater seminaries are producing many of the Way's new priests. The Way claims to produce clean Roman Catholic vocations, but those vocations are only useful in the Way, and require a "special kind" of seminary (the Redemptoris Mater) to do the same things of common Diocesan priests and Fidei Donum missionaries.
I am a devout Roman Catholic, and have been so for my entire life.
:This is not a discussion about your life and your faith, and your bona fide life in the Way cannot change the facts. The article about the Way should contain more than official Neocatechumenals propaganda. The article does not contain testimonials by Neocatechumenals enemies, neither contains slogans and propaganda by anti-Catholic people (while, for example, the pope Benedict XVI wikipedia page includes text and links to anti-Catholic biased sources). All reported criticisms to the Way come from Catholic hierarchy and theologians (ask to your friends why no Bishop or Cardinal or Pope ever said "Neocatechumenals doctrine is genuinely Catholic").
I want to see an objectively written article on the Neocatechumenal Way
:Do read original documents: Arinze's letter about liturgy, cited Bishops documents, Kiko-Carmen-Pezzi letter, Benedict XVI documents, etc.
:	-- Zagor te nay 09:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "anti-Neocatechumenal agenda" of pope Benedict XVI 

message: You have stated that this "depends" on Kiko Argüello, and whether or not he will condemn his heretical statements. Well, let me speak forthrightly by stating that you clearly have your own agenda. This is not a matter of Neocatechumenal Spin. I am  very familiar with both sides of  the argument, both in favor and opposed to the Way. You state unequivocally that no Bishop, Cardinal or Pope had ever said a word about its orthodoxy. What you do not know, is that as recently as four months ago, the Cardinal of Washington D.C. showed the Church's support for the way by being present at the inauguration of a new Redemptoris Mater seminary in D.C. and he stated that the day will come when those present will remember that they saw one of the Doctors of the Church, Saint Carmen Hernandez speak in front of all of us. What more praise does one need than such instances as these. I can point to many others.
You also keep on putting in the first paragraph that the Way is centered in Italy and in Spain, this is not true. The Way originated in Spain and Italy, but it has since diversified and expanded beyond those two countries. There a lot of seminaries outside of Europe, and many dioceses outside of Europe. 
To State that what Kiko Argüello is saying is heresy is to put forward your own agenda. My question for you is this, do you actually know what the Way is about? Have you ever been to a catechesis? Have you ever been to a Saturday Eucharist? Have you ever been to a Word Celebration? Have you ever been to a convivance? Have you ever seen the lives that Christ has touched in the Neocatechumenal Way? Have you been able to go beyond your own skepticisim and your own agenda to embrace the goodness of the Way? Call it Neocatechumenal Spin all you want. Call it heresy. Call it what you will. The reality is, that the Neocatechumenal Way is not, nor has it ever been heretical. It has a lot of strong support from three popes, many cardinals and bishops, and much more than just tangential support. There is support for the orthodoxy of the Way. You put forward a series of misleading interpretations and criticisms of the Way that are from people who think like you. Where are the opinions, in this article, of people who do not think like you? I do not see them in this article at all, except in this talk page? And quoting Enrico Zoffoli is certainly a biased source, considering that he wrote a book titled "The Heresies of the Neocatechumenal Way." Zoffoli, in my opinion, is misguided. My own belief, is that those who are against the way, fear the differences in form that the Way uses in the Eucharist. Once again, however, the differences are in FORM, not in DOGMA.  
 
If you want to discuss the imperfections of the Way, and the problems of the Way, that is one thing. But you have revealed yourself for what you are by stating that Kiko Argüello has committed heresy. You are clearly in line with many other mislead individuals who either do not understand the nature of the Neocatechumenal Way, and how we are simply, Roman Catholics like any other group of Roman Catholics. It is the form in which we celebrate our Eucharist that there are differences. In terms of dogma, however, there is no difference. We are devout Roman Catholics who believe in the pope who do not swerve from dogma. 
That said, I would hope you would attend a catechesis. And see, whether or not, you like what you hear.
Peace be with you.
And another note, it is not for lack of understanding that "I don't get the point." Io poso parlare italiano e spagnolo. -- Ladb2000
::I was reading through the archive out of interest. Let me just put in between the following observation: I do not know what opinion the accusation of heresy was based on. But to answer the charge with "have you ever been to a [NCW] catechesis? Have you ever seen the lives that Christ has touched in the Neocatechumenal Way? Have you been able to go beyond your own skepticisim and your own agenda to embrace the goodness of the Way? [...] Call it heresy. Call it what you will."
::As I said, I do not know what the original debate was about; but this answer betrays a heretical mindset even more than an occasional slip into condemned teaching would do.
::To find out what is heresy and what isn't, all you need is the statement in question and the, to simplify, the Denzinger, and find out whether the statement matches one of the anathemas. A Catholic charged of heresy has four choices: deny that he has said the statement; deny that he has meant with the statement what it was taken to mean; say "I'm sorry" for inadvertently slipping into wrong teaching; and finally, having really and not only inadvertently gone the wrong way, repenting of it. An "almost Catholic", I might say, has one other choice: "On this count I have to admit that, though I'm sorry, I have to disagree with the Church, for that and that reason; even so, however," etc. etc. The answer, obviously by a NCW adherent, was none of the above, but a psychologizing nonsense about only the NCW adherent, and even the convinced ("embrace the goodness") NCW adherent, having as much as a nonnegligible opinion in the matter, and that it is immaterial whether anyone outside call it a heresy. Dear Ladb2000, I will not assume that all NCW adherents think the way you do, but from NCW perspective, you have done the NCW a disservice.--2001:A61:20E6:601:191B:DDC:2A48:C70C (talk) 11:25, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another alternative 

message: *You stress that I have «my own agenda». Your opinion. And it grants me the right to reply: "you have your Neocatechumenal Spin Agenda".
*Anyways, everyone can read the official documents and verify. Se sei capace di leggere l'italiano, allora puoi verificare tu stesso tutti i documenti citati (if you understand Italian language, then you can verify by yourself all cited documents).
*Surely, not everyone can read the "secret catechetical books" to compare them to the Catechism, but supplied links will help.
*You cite some Bishops and Cardinals and Popes praising the Way. But this does not change anything in those documents.
*Currently, the Way has not been recognized by the Church – except the Statute: a temporary "approval" (five years, expiring on June 2007) of present and future guidelines of the Way, still requiring a "Catechetical Directory".
*No "Catechetical Directory" has been published (yet).
*Another official document: Arinze's letter containing «Holy Father's decisions».
*News about 900 dioceses appear in almost every pro-Neocatechumenal site.
*The Way was born in Spain (Madrid, 1964-1967) and Italy (Rome, 1968). 
*I can (but do not need to) testimony many, many things about the Way but here I only state what the cited documents state.
*Are the Neocatechumenals "heretics"? Only they are heretics who have some knowledge of being heretics and persist in sustaining the errors listed above. But since identifying them individually escapes all our scrutiny, all we can do is to disapprove the heresy in itself which results from the "catecheses" of Kiko. In fact, this constitutes one of the most fearful dangers to the faith. (father Enrico Zoffoli)
*...And quoting Irenaeus of Lyons is "certainly" a biased source, considering that he wrote a book titled "Against Heresies". If Zoffoli is misguided because he wrote "against the Way", then also st.Irenaeus is misguided.
*In liturgy, differences in form are often differences in dogma: lex orandi, lex credendi.
*Peace be with you. -- Zagor te nay 15:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response 

message: Irenaeus of Lyons was very critical of Gnosticism, and rightfully so. Gnosticism was not simply different in form, it was almost entirely different in its theology and its dogma. While you make a valid point that differences in form in some cases indicate differences in dogma, this is not the case with the Neocatechumenal Way. We do the Gloria, we recite the Creed, we believe in the transubstantiation, and so on. I have said it many times, and I will say it once more, the Neocatechumenal Way is no different than the rest of the Roman Catholic Church. In terms of dogma there is no difference between a traditional sunday mass and a Neocatechumenal Saturday eucharist.
::Ireneaus had to fight against heretics. Heretics never say "we are heretics". Luther never said things like "I want to create a wrong christianism, a different church, etc".
::Yes, you "do the Gloria". Up to recent times, this didn't happen in the communities of the Way. You recite the Creed. Up to recent times, this also didn't happen. You believe in transubstantiation, but Kiko always told that the term was only "philosophical" stuff needed in the first Protestants years (i.e.: it's superfluous).
::You say that the Mass of the Way is "no different" than the Roman Catholic Church one. Then, why Benedict XVI required serious changes in the Neocatechumenal Mass?
::-- Zagor te nay 08:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crucial Differences 

message: We are all Roman Catholics! How many times do I have to repeat this? How many times must I confront the ludicrous teachings of Enrico Zoffoli? How many times do I have to defend the Neocatechumenal Way against a charge of heresy? We are bona fide Catholics. But like all good Christians, we are no less persecuted. The persecution leveled against us is a sign that we are doing something right. User: Ladb2000
::Kiko Argüello teachings are "ludicrous" (not fr. Enrico Zoffoli). Fr. Enrico Zoffoli (mostly known as "spiritual director" and "confessor") published some 100+ books in defense of Catholicism, Sacraments, Apologetics, Theology, etc. Most of his books had formal Bishops approval on publication, including Dizionario del cristianesimo (Dictionary of Christianity). Pope Paul VI quoted Zoffoli many times.
::«...As the name states, the "Statutes" is the official recognition of the Way as a Catholic post-baptismal catechumenate and they describe how does it function, while the "Catechetical Directory" contains the method and the catechetical points of the Way.» This statement is largely incorrect. The Statutes is a temporary document by Pontifical Council for the Laity, which addresses a Catechetical Directory. Please read art. 11, 19, 28§2, etc, of the Statutes. The Catechetical Directory is yet unpublished. How could the Catholic Church "approve" by using only a temporary Statute referring to an unpublished document?
::Anyways, it's not "only fr. Zoffoli". Other theologians published books and articles. Also, there are lots of pronouncements by Bishops and Cardinals, some of them already cited in the article. Criticisms about liturgy issues were definitively confirmed by letter of card.Arinze containing "decisions of the Holy Father" which, except a secondary (and temporary) indult about sign of peace, requires the Way to wipe out all liturgical abuses and begin again celebration of the Mass as standard Catholic liturgical books and documents admit. But on Jan.17, 2006 Kiko, Carmen and Pezzi stated (in a letter to Benedict XVI) that their errors were useful to "bring from sadness to joy", which is almost a declaration of disobedience.
::Maybe the Neocatechumenal Way in the US is different (and less heretic) than Italian/Spanish one. Your bona fide is not discussed. This article only shows documents and sources. This article does not include criticisms from anti-Catholic sources (while, for example, Opus Dei and even Benedict XVI wikipedia articles do). Are you Neocatechumenals definitively sure that "persecution leveled against you" means that you are doing something right?
::A generic "persecution" argument does not explain anything. Also heretics suffered persecution. Any guilty "suffers" persecution. All "persecution" to Neocatechumenals coming from Catholic hierarchy requires obedience. Arinze's "persecution" letter requires immediate obedience (not "granting two years" as of Kiko weird idea about obedience: everyone, reading the letter by Arinze, understands that Benedict XVI wants immediate stop, everyone knows that Benedict XVI conceded "not exceeding two years" only for rare -and most disobedient- communities).
::--Zagor te nay 16:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I have kept my voice silent for several months 

message: You have an axe to grind against the Way. The way you phrase what you say, the arguments that you use -- are all filled with a venomous anger. You call us disobedient. You call us heretical. You are going against the body of the Roman Catholic Church by making such bold claims. In my opinion, you and others like you, including misguided (but well-meaning) theologians such as Zoffoli have a very ignorant understanding of the Neocatechumenal Way. 
I asked you this a long time ago, and you never gave me a satisfactory answer. 
Have you ever been to a catechesis?
Have you ever attended a Eucharist?
Have you ever attended a Word Celebration?
Have you ever attended a a Convivance?
Have you ever been to a Redemptoris Mater seminary?
I have been a Roman Catholic for almost 22 years. In that time I have never swayed from my faith. What I say to you now is that the Neocatechumenal Way is the furthest thing from heresy. You attack our bad history, without recognizing the truth that the Medieval Church is the one that caused the Protestant Reformation. Our inability to stop selling indulgences, our inability to reconnect with the truth faith of the early Christian Church, and our unwillingness to listen to reformers such as Erasmus -- led to the present day fractures in the body of Christ (that is, the church) today. 
I am not a Protestant, but I will say this, the Protestant understanding of living the faith -- of actually practicing what they preach -- would put most mainstream Catholics to shame. We do not read our Bible, and we fear the Word of God. We go to Church on Sunday and we recite from memory a Creed that most people do not even understand. Our Churches are becoming empty -- we are paying the price of our forefathers -- by losing ourselves in petty discussions over form and institutionalization. 
The majority of the world's one billion Catholics go to Church once a week on Sunday, rarely read their Bible, and do not practice the faith as Jesus commanded us too. We are too busy. We want a sugar-coated pill every Sunday. We want the priest to tell us what we want to hear, but our hearts are lying. They are made of stone. We will not let the Word of the Lord penetrate us. We have, in short, become secular Catholics.
The Neocatechumenal Way is a Christian Initiation aimed at adult faith formation. We are not a sect. We are not a movement. We are not a ministry. Who is targeted by the Way? Those Catholics who have fallen away from the faith and those who seek an intimate adult faith in the Lord. I have nothing but respect and devotion for Pope Benedict XVI. He brought the Way to Bavaria when he was a Cardinal. 
I understand and accept Arinze's letter. I understand the need for the Church not to be divided, and for the Way to serve the Roman Catholic Church in the best capacity possible, even with some modifications. 
I have read Zoffoli, and I have read the criticisms of others -- that we are heretics, that we have bad history, that we are "like the worst protestant sects," etc.  I am not convinced by any of these arguments. The Way is simply trying to get Catholics to practice what they preach and lead the Christian life as Christ commanded us. For this reason, I am disturbed when Enrico Zoffoli wrote that, "Unfortunately, it looks like that Neocatechumenals would not profess themselves as Catholics, but simply as Christians, similar to all protestants." What are we? Are Roman Catholics not by definition Christians? Should we be first Catholics and then Christians? I am sorry, but Father Zoffoli does not understand the nature of Christianity if he could be so petty about semantics. 
I am not a heretic. My community is not a heretic. The people I know in the Way both here and abroad are not heretics. Kiko Arguello is not a heretic. What I see in these criticisms, is the unwillingness of certain segments of the Roman Catholic Church to accept the call of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are Christians and we are Roman Catholics. We believe in transubstantiation and in salvation by faith and by good works. The difference is, that we practice what we preach, whereas those who criticize us, it seems, come from the mainstream Church, and are tied down to petty institutionalism and moribund tradition. What good is petty "orthodoxy" if we do not have Christ within our hearts, within our minds, within our souls? We are dead without him. We are dead without his faith. And our faith is dead without good works.
Once again, I invite you to come to a catechesis, to hear what the Way has to offer, and then make your criticisms.
Peace. User:Ladb2000
::It seems you didn't read the entire article and all citations. It's not me calling you as "disobedient". "Disobedient" comes from several Bishops and Cardinals. "Heretical" comes from proven orthodoxy theologians. "Approved" comes from Neocatechumenal propaganda (there is no official recognition yet).
::Like lots of other Neocatechumenals, you call "anger", "misguided" and even "against the Roman Catholic Church" every non-praising statement about the Way. Funny: this behavior was already described in the article.
::We don't need to put in the article our personal opinions and testimonials. Everything in the article is already documented by reliable sources and public documents.
::If you "understand and accept Arinze's letter", then you are implicitly admitting that Neocatechumenal Mass was a "disobedient" liturgy until December 1, 2005. If you "understand and accept" Arinze's letter «containing Holy Father decisions», then you are saying that your community Mass has already reverted to standard Catholic Mass, wiping out what Benedict XVI dislikes ("seated", "cloth-covered", etc), you are saying your community is not a "closed door" community but participates to the Holy Mass of the parish community, you are saying that now homily will be reserved to priests and deacons, echoes will be rare and short and outside the Mass, etc.
::You say Benedict XVI brought the Way to Bavaria. You are invited to document it (Neocatechumenal slogans are not enough to document it: has Benedict XVI ever written anything about introducing the Way in Bavaria?) But it won't change anything, because Benedict XVI, while encourages members of the Way, also requires them to be like any other Catholic (beginning with Liturgy). Every "blessing" from Benedict XVI includes always words about obedience to liturgical norms, etc.
::I don't need to know what does happen in your life and in your community. Surely in Italy the Way is well known for problems and abuses (this is why most of the documents are in Italian; also, Kiko and Carmen and Pezzi letters and speeches are in Italian). On June 3, 2006, talking of the Way, a whining Kiko said to the Pope that Bishops "don't understand that they need" it (his speech is available only in Italian and German). -- Zagor te nay 15:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The title of this subdiscussion is "anger", but before we get down to business in Christian virtue and vice theory, let's just say that humility is, among other things, good strategy, and that at least as a strategy, our NCW contributor with all his them being the only Christians in the Catholic Church that are seriously such somewhat totally failed to apply it here.--2001:A61:20E6:601:191B:DDC:2A48:C70C (talk) 11:40, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anger 

message: I went ahead and removed the tags from the top of the page seeing as now the site quotes official documnets, if you wish to add them again the please leave a message giving a reason for doing so.
Thanks, 
:Ncwfl 03:12, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Tags 

message: I propose to change this paragraph as follows:
The Neocatechumenal Way is at the service of the bishops and pastors as an itinerary for the rediscovery of Baptism and an ongoing education in the faith, offered to the faithful who want to rediscover and relive in their lives the riches of Christian initiation by participating in this process of conversion and catechesis. As the Holy Father wrote, in this process an important help can be offered by "a post-baptismal catechesis in the form of the catechumenate by presenting again some elements from the "Rite of the Christian Initiation of Adults' with the purpose of allowing a person to grasp and live the immense and extraordinary richness and responsibility of the Baptism he has received" (Christifideles laici, n. 61). 
The Neocatechumenal Way - whose itinerary is lived in parishes and in small communities made up of people of different ages and social conditions - has the ultimate goal of gradually bringing the faithful to intimacy with Jesus Christ, making them active subjects of the Church and credible witnesses of the Good News of our Saviour everywhere. The Neocatechumenal Way is also an instrument for the Christian initiation of adults who are preparing themselves to receive Baptism.
USeditor 13:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal - New Definition of Nature and Mission of the Neocatechumenal Way. 

message: It's hardly necessary to comment on such unfundamented ways the Vatican resolution issued by Cardinal Arinze. If you want to give some further considerations on the topic, do so based on actual reliable sources in a orderly fashion, not on some loose "notes" after the statements at hand.
The expressions of love and spiritual connection with the Way, although beautiful or interesting should not be present in a talk page whose sole purpose is debating the facts. Neither should the opposite feelings.
Based on this, and on prior discussion not yet resolved on this talk page (like the actual adulteration of terms in the letter), i'm putting the NPOV tag back on.
(Antonius Block 14:38, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Notes" on Vatican Document 

message: I removed the comments on the homily and "echoes". I believe that the letter should be inserted in a larger section of the article, on the subject of Neocatechumenal Liturgy, which is the main cause of controversy regarding it's practices, and where the definitions of "echoes" and such analogous terms could be given from the Neocatechumenal Way perspective, in order that the laity not connected to it could understand the subject at hand.
(Antonius Block 20:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neocatechumenal Liturgy and Vatican Letter