Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive 6

message: Where is the section on displaced people of Nagorno Karabakh? Now that you have expanded this to anything, why there is no section about displaced population of Nagorno Karabakh 23% Azerbaiajnis? 
Francis you are warned as you continue your hostility, pre-judice and ememity towards Azerbaijani and Azerbaijani facts. Note that you are not a judge, you are a mere editor. There are people who can teach you laws and judging, so you are not better not entitled by anything under the Wikipedia to judge somebody and give last decisions. 
I will go on and add this section to the nagorno karabakh page. --Kazim Kara Bekir Pasha 16:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I totally agree, I am not the judge. I would definately welcome a well sourced section on the internally displaced people, also on human rights and I have called for these before (if you take the time to read the talk page). I presume you are EoC, if so could I recommend changing your username because the one you have currently might offend other editors. I appreciate, as does every other editor your being civil and refraining from personal attacks :) - FrancisTyers 16:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Please try to find a better more neutral source for this. --Khoikhoi 06:26, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok, fine. --Khoikhoi 06:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Displaced people of Nagorno Karabakh

message: Due to the fact that the Armenian origin or relation of Francis has become obvious over the recent days on actions he has consistently and systematically taken against azerbaijani related facts I hereby do suggest the terminiation of the administration rights of Francis for this web page. he ahs consistently 'tried' pseudo to be 'neutral' on azerbaijani facts and receptive and supportive of Armenian claims. I do suggest that Francis takes this acion on his own without any further action and I believe he has to take this step if he hasn't vested interest in Karabakh as an Armenian or Armenian related person. I will start the necessary letter campaign to Wikipedia soon.--Eagle of the Caucasus 15:50, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Administration of the web page

message: Again this tigran and armenian imagination at work. 
This is what the Kosovo page says 
"Kosovo (Serbian: Косово и Метохија / Kosovo i Metohija, Albanian: Kosovë / Kosova) is a province of Serbia. It is the subject of an ongoing territorial dispute between Serbia and the province's majority ethnic Albanian population. It lies within Serbia's traditional borders inside the Serbian-Montenegrin federation, but since the Kosovo War it has been administered by the United Nations under the auspices of UNMIK. The province's final status has yet to be determined; talks on this issue are scheduled for later in 2006."
The similar should be stated about Nagorno-Karabakh. Everybody including armenian terrorists and their reps should know that de-facto concept is your subjective opinion. there is a puppet terrorist and seperatist regime there and it can be eliminated any minute as soon as war starts. And this time it will be startd by Azerbaijan at any time as you know. The right time might come any minute and if you Tigran is aware of subjectivism and perception issues well, what at all does it give us , if we change the word to de-facto, but tomorrow Azerbaijan liberates those territories, persecutes all terrorists including your puppet fascist gukasyan, hangs him, and that is pretty much it. From the subjective or perception point of view there is no difference, the difference is just couple of days. If there is no difference and we do fight over terms for nothing as you claim, let us leave it as it is "as the region of Azerbaijan" 
Also who is Mikkalai that he locks the page for changes, and if these changes last were made by armenians. mikkalai or nikkalai himself is armenian, why such a right should be given to them. 
What he did was another face of armenian internet terrorism occuring in Wikipedia.
Also note that my example about Kosovo does not mean that I see these two conflicts identical. They are very different from roots. Kosovars lived in Kosovo all the time and have been in absolute majority constituting 88 percent of the population, with no Serbian history and presence. Future status yet to be defined and have been subject to ethnic cleansing for years which led to the international intervention. In our case things are in reverse. --Eagle of the Caucasus 07:58, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NK status

message: I removed the phrase “However, these claims had never been proved”. It was officially confirmed by Russian Minister of defense Igor Rodionov in his letter to Aman Tuleyev, Minister of cooperation with CIS countries. He said that munitions were transferred to Armenia free of charge and without relevant decrees of the government. See links to reports of Russian media.
http://www.zerkalo-nedeli.com/nn/show/128/10873/
http://www.nasledie.ru/hronica/1997/03/13.htm
Grandmaster 09:57, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the link to the article in Washington Times. Please note that this article is also available in the archive at the website of this newspaper. Grandmaster 06:18, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transfer of weapons from Russia to Armenia 

message: TigrantheGreat, I advice you to ignore personal attacks directed at you. If attacks and slanders continue, I will delete those slanders myself and if the Eagle is not happy, he is free to contact every administrators he wants. Restrict yourself debating with Grandmaster and FrancisTyers. Fad (ix) 18:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sticking to the article please 

message: The logistical support and combat missions accomplished by the Russian 4th Army's officers for the Azerbaijani army proceeded on a mercenary basis, not as regular service. Besides Turkish instructors, the Azeris were helped by Afghan Mujahedeen. 
Each Azerbaijani president started his career with attempts to make military progress in Karabakh, and by appealing for Turkish technical and training support, which was rendered in part. Heidar Aliev even invited Afghani mujahedeen, with disastrous consequences. 
Finally, both Turkey and Afghanistan were involved militarily in the dispute. Aghan Mujahedeen served in the Azerbaijani counteroffebsive in Fizuli. 
Also, I have researched newspaper archives, and found out that this claim about using mujahedeen is repeated often. One relevent article for example, published in the The Wall Street Journal, on the date of March 3, 1994, on page A16 by Felix Corly, titled The Forgotten War. In the article he writes: Since mid-December the Azeris have redoubled their efforts at the front. President Heidar Aliev has tightened internal discipline, recruited thousands of mujahedeen fighters from Afghanistan (as well as mercenaries from Iran and elsewhere) and brought in even more Turkish officers to organize his army.
I believe there are enough sources to establish the notability of the mujahedeen claim. Fad (ix) 19:39, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent, it should definitely be included with links then. I think the wording of the paragraph could be improved though. - FrancisTyers 19:56, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: mujahedeen accusation

message: You will make no progress suggesting/rejecting complete paragraphs. I'd suggest to agree on some basic facts first. And then construct some first approximation of the intro, to be refined later in a normal way of editing. Let me start with some points.
Who has authorized to change the intro of the web page? Who has done it? can somebody make it clear. I suspet it is armenians, either tigran or mikkalai. I don't know why when Azerbaijanis don't agree chages are made, but when armenians don't agree things can't be changed. And those to revert chnages are blocked. is this the equal opportunity? 
:No, but it doesn't help to revert war on the article. You'll notice that people get more time and patience if they are civil, for example, Tigran does not go around calling me an Azeri when I do something against Armenian interests and Grandmaster does not go around calling me Armenian when I do something against Azeri interests.
:Civility is one of the basic rules of Wikipedia, please follow it. - FrancisTyers 06:52, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Normally I wouldn't point out typo's, but you have repeated this one. The name of Colombia is Colombia (with two o's). And I'm afraid it is different, and different again from Nepal. - FrancisTyers 06:52, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

text: It's an interesting proposition. Perhaps we can create a separate page for NKR. On this page, in the meantime, we can say "NK is a region in Southern Caucasus. The name is also used to refer to NKR, a de-facto independent state whose territory comprises the region." And then provide further details, according to NPOV standards.--TigranTheGreat 17:01, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro: Let's do it in parts

message: First of all, NK is not "republic". It is an area. The republic is NKR.  YOu may want to separate the two articles, to circumvent some problems. mikka (t) 00:18, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Normally I wouldn't point out typo's, but you have repeated this one. The name of Colombia is Colombia (with two o's). And I'm afraid it is different, and different again from Nepal. - FrancisTyers 06:52, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

text: It's an interesting proposition. Perhaps we can create a separate page for NKR. On this page, in the meantime, we can say "NK is a region in Southern Caucasus. The name is also used to refer to NKR, a de-facto independent state whose territory comprises the region." And then provide further details, according to NPOV standards.--TigranTheGreat 17:01, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: To split the atricle?

message: Is it connected territorially to Armenia? Anyway, it may be called only "ethnic enclave", not formal enclave. mikka (t) 00:18, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it is geographically an enclave, as it has no common borders with Armenia. We can state that NK is an enclave lying completely inside the internationally recognized borders of Azerbaijan. This makes the issue of Azerbaijan's borders NPOV. Note that international recognition of Azerbaijan's borders does not mean "international recognition that NK is part of Azerbaijan." I don't think NK's status (as part of Az) is internationally recognized (as it's an ongoing dispute awaiting final resolution), but I am willing (if nothing else, at least for the sake of brevity) to a formulation stating that the *outer* borders of Azerbaijan are internationally recognized, while NK is lying inside those outer borders (like Lesoto within South Africa).--TigranTheGreat 16:04, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Enclave?

message: Since it has a functioning government, controls irs terrritory, and doing this for quite a long time, it is not like some piece of jungle controlled by guerilla. Therefore this must be mentioned into intro. mikka (t) 00:18, 31 January 2006
[removing nonsensical, uncivil comment - FrancisTyers 06:52, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is referred as de-facto independent in the media (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/3658938.stm, http://www.rferl.org/newsline/1998/02/5-NOT/not-200298.asp, http://www.cfr.org/publication/9148/nagornokarabakh.html), its government is referred to as "de-facto authorities of NK" in various COE documents and press releases (, ), it fits the definition of "de facto independent nation" in Wikipedia article de facto. So it definitely should be mentioned as de facto in the article.--TigranTheGreat 16:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: De-facto

message: First, on the issue of stating the positions of international bodies in a NPOV manner. As I said earlier, the NPOV policy requires that positions, whether majority or minority, be attributed and not be asserted. Now, Grandmaster, recently, on the Nakhichevan page, you applied that policy on the Nakhichevan page, in a segment that was talking about a European Parliament resolution on the destruction of Armenian monuments in Azerbaijan. This link shows the changes that you made. Here is the version before your edit:
:On January 19, 2006, the European Parliament condemned the Azerbaijani government for demolition of medieval Armenian cemeteries and khachkars in southern Nakhichevan in violation the UNESCO World Heritage Convention. 
Here is the version after your edit (the main changes introduced by you are in bold)
:On January 19, 2006, the European Parliament called on the Azerbaijani authorities to put an end the demolition of medieval Armenian cemeteries and historic carved stone crosses in southern Nakhichevan, which according to them was in breach of the terms of its 1993 ratification of the UNESCO World Heritage Convention.
The actual text of the Resolution read:
:European Parliament resolution on the European Neighbourhood Policy (2004/2166(INI)
:"The European Parliament ... 67.  Calls on the Azerbaijani authorities to put an end the demolition of medieval Armenian cemeteries and historic carved stone crosses in southern Nakhichevan, which is in breach of the terms of its 1993 ratification of the UNESCO World Heritage Convention" http://www.europarl.eu.int/omk/sipade3?TYPE-DOC=TA&REF=P6-TA-2006-0028&MODE=SIP&L=EN&LSTDOC=N
In doing so, you confirmed the basic policy that when we state an official position of an international body, under NPOV we do not assert it, but we attribute it. You also decided to stick to the language of a source, instead of imposing our interpretations. We should be consistent in the way we apply the NPOV policy. We therefore should not assert the positions of international bodies as Wikipedia's position, and we should remain true to the language of whatever source we use.
Now, on the issue of who recognizes NK as a region of Azerb, and whether it constitutes as an "internationally recognized" status. I still don't think that NK is internationally recognized as region of Azerb. Now, states don't recognize that it's independent, but that doesn't mean they recognize it as a region of Azerbaijan. Recognition is an official act by a state or an organization, and it may very well be that most states simply do not take a position one way or the other--they either view it as a disputed area, or just don't care. For example, I am not sure if anyone has asked Uganda's position whether NK is part of Azerb. The above is perfectly demonstrated by Armenia's position. Now, Armenia's official position is that NKR is a legally independent state--that's what the President and the Foreign Minister state as Armenia's official position during various summits and negotiations. This is even though the Armenain Parliament has not officially recognized NKR's independence. On the other hand, as most analyses of the conflict note, the Armenian Parliament still has not revoked its 1990 decision of unification of NK with Armenia . Now, Armenia does this to maintain a bargaining chip ("if Azerb. attacks, we will officially recognize NKR"), but it just shows that non-recognition does not mean official position, nor does it imply recognition of the opposite. 
Another good example of this is the recognition of the Armenian Genocide. Now, Fadix is much more knowledgable on this, but the vast majority of scholars outside Turkey believe the Genocide happened. Also, most people outside Turkey knowledgable with the events believe that it was a Genocide. Now, only around 15 states have officially recognized the Genocide. However, this doesn't mean that the rest of the states take the opposite position that the Genocide didn't happen. They simply do not take a position. Also, just because one part of the organization makes an official position, doesn't mean it's adopted by the rest of the organization. For example, a committee in the US Congress recently recognized the Genocide. This does not mean however that the Congress itself recognized the Genocide.
Same with NKR. Now, the UN Security Council calls NK "region of Azerbaijan." Fine, let's assume that the UNSC recognized it as such. However, UNSC's position is not necessarily UN's General Assembly's position--UNSC is much narrower subbody of UN than the General Assembly. Moreover, the UNSC resolutions (or even General Assembly's resolutions) are not binding on its member states. So, these resolutions do not mean that the states themselves have recognized NK as region of Azerbaijan. 
Same with the PACE. First, PACE's position is not necessarily the entire COE's position. As Atkinson stated, the PACE intitiative was made to introduce Parliamentary and "elected representative" dimension to the solution of the conflict. Furthermore, it's not the position of every European state. Now, the term "region of Azerbaijan" appears only in the "explanatory memorandum" by Atkinson, a Rapporteur from UK. The PACE resolution never refers to NK as a region of Azerbaijan, and for a good reason. PACE is involved in the solution of the conflict, and as such, it needs to maintain a neutral position. Atkinson's report (which was not PACE's report or resolution) was criticized precisely for that reason--that it was being pro-Azeri. For example, Kazimirov, one of the co-chair's (from Russia) of OSCE's Minks group, objected to Atkinson's report on that ground:
:The draft resolution was strongly criticised in a letter to Atkinson by Vladimir Kazimirov, the veteran Russian mediator who negotiated the 1994 ceasefire. Kazimirov said the draft gave a very selective history of the conflict and said it was clearly biased in favour of Azerbaijan and therefore harmful to the prospects of peaceful resolution. “The Hippocratic oath, 'do no harm' to the negotiation process, is absolutely appropriate here, as each side will for sure use any bias in its own interests,” Kazimirov wrote http://www.turkishweekly.net/comments.php?id=88
In other words, while PACE, or OSCE or any other group are involved in the negotiation process, they have to be neutral and are prohibitted from making official positions on the status of Karabakh, as it will harm the negotiation process. They can make general statements of principles, and which principles should be involved in solution of the problem (territorial integrity etc.), but they do not recognize NK as part of Azerbaijan. They do, however, view the status as subject of ongoing dispute, which is the whole point of the negotiations. It's not surprising, therefore, that Atkinson's phrase "region of Azerbaijan" does not appear in PACE's resolution. 
In sum, while NK's indendence is not internationally recognized, neither is its status as a region of Azerbaijan. So far, from your sources, only UN's SC and US have recognized it as a region of Azerbaijan.--TigranTheGreat 14:12, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Issue of "International Recognition." 

message: As long as the provocators User:Enver Pasha and User:Talatpasha don't register under another log-in, I refuse to participate. For those whom wonder the reasons of my decision. They have purposly chosen this log-in name of two rulers of the Ittihadist party, who are accused of having planned the Armenian genocide. I hardly can concieve any Jews wanting to debate in an article, where idiots register logins such as Hitler or Himmler. Fad (ix) 15:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Chosing deliberately offensive usernames is against Wiki rules.--TigranTheGreat 15:22, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It appears to be a violation of WP:U--Eupator 15:34, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I am boycoting this page 

message: According to The Wall Street Journal, Azerbaijani President Heydar Aliev recruited thousands of mujahedeen fighters from Afghanistan (as well as mercenaries from Iran and elsewhere) and brought in even more Turkish officers to organize his army. The Washington Post discovered that Azerbaijan hired more than 1,000 guerrilla fighters from Afghanistan's radical prime minister, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. Meanwhile, Turkey and Iran supplied trainers, and the republic also was aided by 200 Russian officers who taught basic tactics to Azerbaijani soldiers in the northwest city of Barda . Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev personaly engaged Armenian forces in NKR, it is said by some that Arab guerrilla Ibn al-Khattab joined Basayev in Azerbaijan between 1992-1993. In additon officers from the Russian 4th Army participated on combat missions for Azerbaijan on a mercenary basis.
# The Wall Street Journal The Forgotten War. March 3, 1994. 
# The Washington Post Azerbaijan Throws Raw Recruits Into Battle. April 21, 1994.
#EurasiaNet Chechen fighter's death reveals conflicted feelings in Azerbaijan. May 14, 2002
#Contested borders in the Caucasus, Alexey Zverev.
Thoughts? --Eupator 20:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to thank TigranTheGreat and Fad (ix) for their assistance in this endeavor.--Eupator 02:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  My pleasure. I abandoned you 2000 years ago, so I owed you :) --TigranTheGreat 12:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I would tend to agree with Grandmaster, unless you are going to write "A journalist writing on the eurasianet.org website reports that some people say that..." etc. The source really isn't particularly good for such a large accusation ;) - FrancisTyers 09:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It’s not even good to write “a journalist writing on the eurasianet heard from somebody that Khattab was fighting in Karabakh”. We need to know who he heard it from. Grandmaster 10:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's published in a third party publication, it's a piece of information, we don't fact check. Maybe we don't say "some," but it's ok to say "so and so publication says some." Plus, it was written by an Azeri journalist. As long as it's relevant, we are not at the stage to delete relevant info. You have filled the article with minute details on the Azeri view, and we have been patient. Let us add the Armenian version, and then we will consider what is "less important" and what is "more important." There is alot of deleting that should take place in the eventual version of the article, including from your additions. So far we are just dumping info.--TigranTheGreat 12:35, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You can’t dump just any info. It doesn’t even say who those some people were by profession (people on the street, journalists, military, etc). I’m simply referring you to Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words and Weasel word. Take a look at the examples of weasel words there. This sentence is a classical example of a weasel word use. Grandmaster 07:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Some people think that this source sucks big time, while it is believed that certain unspecified persons may dismiss this idea :) Not too good for inclusion anyway imho. I agree with Francis. Grandmaster 08:56, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'll find a better source. For now it stays. Not the biggest problem of the article. Meanwhile stupid "divide and rule" bs is still there.--Eupator 14:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agreed to removal of that particular phrase. You can do it right now. And I’m waiting for your better source. Grandmaster 19:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Maybe if the phrase is so important for some editors, put something like there were unconfirmed rumors that Khatab... and put the inline references to Euronews? abakharev 11:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Afghan/Chechen/merc/Turkish assistance to Azerbaijan 

message: See BBC News article. What the hell? --Khoikhoi 22:34, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it seems that there was no agreement. Prior to the meeting, there was optimism by Yerevan and OSCE, however, there were some pessimistic statments from Baku. MkhitarSparapet 21:40, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian and Azerbaijan fail to reach a deal on Nagorno-Karabakh 

message: I'd like to archive the talk page, does anyone have any specific objections? PS. I think we're doing a good job on the article, rarely have I seen one so well sourced... although there is always room for improvement :) The early history section could do with more sources. - FrancisTyers 21:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do archive. It's endless. Grandmaster 16:43, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive