Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 42

message: Trivia is by definition unencyclopaedia.  I removed the trivia section but someone restored it.  Not only is a trivia section inappropriate for an encyclopaedia article, it is bullet points as well.  What ever happened to prose?  Anyway, the section should be removed, really.  Anything which is actually relevant should be incorporated elsewhere.  Worldtraveller 16:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why no trivia? Pages like Abraham Lincoln and Hunter S. Thompson are fine examples of a trivia section organizing facts near impossible to incorporate into meaningful prose. At least in this form no interesting pieces are left out. What's unencyclopedic about informing succintly, especially when many topics are miscellaneous? Ranieldule 18:02, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information.  'Trivia' goes completely against what an encyclopaedia is suppposed to provide.  If it's actually relevant, it should be included somewhere else in the article.  Worldtraveller 18:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you for clarifying that for me WT - I had read that portion previously but I suppose I was searching for the word trivia itself, but the concept is there. I do hope though that all that information isn't lost in the ongoing delete/revert process. I find a good portion of it relevant and I hope to put those pieces somehow into the existing prose of the article. Surely everyone else should give it a go, too.Ranieldule 18:30, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Trivia

message: This list is incorrect, is it not? After all, his last name WAS Hiedler, not Hitler and therefore listing the origins of *Hitler* is irrelevant, rather there should be a listing of the origins of Hiedler, his father's family's real last name.
User:211.27.247.184
Dear 211,
Hiedler, Hüttler and Hitler are merely variants in spelling of one name. Only when Alois changed his name was the spelling fixed for himself and his children - and Alois chose Hitler. The variation of course doesn't make the search for the meaning easier but it is still only one name. Str1977 (smile back) 19:20, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Origins of the name "Hitler"

message: Under "Economics and culture" it says "In 1936 Berlin hosted the summer Olympic games, which were opened by Hitler and choreographed to demonstrate Aryan superiority over all other races."
Did this succeed, fail? The article is not clear and with numerous non-Aryan winners of gold medals might it be changed to "choregraphed...with mixed results?" I ask tentatively because it's a small point and I'm sure plenty of you seasoned Wikipedians can set me straight before I muddle anything. Ranieldule 17:15, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Be bold and add it - that's a good addition, but you shouldn't need to ask permission first :).  Deleuze 21:35, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now I'm bold. Thanks for the nudge. Ranieldule 12:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 1936 Olympic Games

message: Speer, in his memoires, tried to read Mein Kampf and quotes Hitler I think pre-war saying that Mein Kampf was old hat; what he now thought was quite different to what he'd written all those years ago.  (Speer then gave up trying to read the book, which he'd found difficult to comprehend).
This seems pertinent, given the heavy quoting from Mein Kampf in the article.
Toby Douglass 12:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mein Kampf 

message: "Have you got any proof that the BBC or History Channel used the site as a source? I can't see any."
I got the emails
"Have you read Wikipedia:Reliable sources? Self-published sources can't be used on Wikipedia."
there is no self published material on my site NONE!!!!!!! NADA, besides that is for Wikipedia articles and not links. My site meets the Wikipedia:External links guide lines. 
In your Hitler Links you have lawschool.cornell.edu, look at their source links
http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/library/donovan/hitler/intro.html
this is painfully obvious that one person has a vendetta against my site because he thinks it is a neo-nazi site [which it is not, if he ever reviewed the site he would see the disclaimers], or maybe it because he listed his own site. I want someone who is impartial to judge this. 
Tell me, if you have been on Wikipedia since 2003 why are you just now deleting my link ? could it be you were influenced by someone ? Wikipedia should not be about politics rather facts
Will you personally delete any link that has the same "errors" that my site is being judged on ?
::I assume I'm the person you mention above. I do not think your site is a neo-Nazi site, and never said so. I did say it links to some neo-Nazi sites, and that it had quite a few deficiencies. That doesn't mean it's a bad  site, but not good enough for Wikipedia.
::Also, Wikipedia practice discourages adding links to one's own material, which you have been doing on a number of pages. Use the discussion page to attempt to persuade other users that your site should be added rather than doing it yourself. Bytwerk 16:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I'm that person, see User talk:Wilson44#adolfhitler.ws, but I totally agree with you. Mushroom (Talk) 16:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad to let you have the honor! Bytwerk 16:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I think the site qualifies. Let it have a chance, geez. I've used the site for research on essays and numerous other information. Mind you, the essay got an A+. It has loads of primary sources, and a piles of information, and you're telling me, and everyone else, we can't use it? It is just my opinion, and I respect yours, but I must say I think I'm on the right side of the issue here. That site would be very beneficial. Aaрон Кинни (t) 08:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No one says you can't use it, just that it doesn't meet Wikipedia standards -- but if your teacher gave you an A+ on an essay based on it, your teacher needs to learn something about sources. Bytwerk 11:29, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Errors or not - the site is not showing any credetials therefor fails WP:RS Agathoclea 22:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mind you I used print sources as well. But that's not the main discussion, so I won't go into it. Aaрон Кинни (t) 04:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: adolfhitler.ws

message: To suggest that Hitler triggered the Second World War by invading Poland is absurd. Germany invaded Poland to re-acquire the Danzig province that was taken from Germany after the Treaty of Versailles. Britian then used that as an excuse to declare war on Germany.
User:fahle 13:29 27 July 2006
No no, fahle. It is absurd that Hitler only wanted Danzig. He wanted to wipe out Poland and then proceed to conquer Europe at least. In fact, he had wanted to start the war already in 1938 with the CSR but Göring's Munich Conference spoiled this. "Trigger" here was the result of a long debate, as some editors considered World War II to have begun only with UK and France vs. Germany. I happen to disagree. Hitler didn't trigger World War II - he started it, this criminal. Str1977 (smile back) 18:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Many Nazi leaders did indeed think that Slavs were inferior. Rosenberg, nominal leader of the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, was relatively well-disposed towards Slavs, but other leaders certainly were not. Nordicist theory generally portrayed Slavs as lesser beings. Paul B 22:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Trigger again

message: In the link section, there is a link titled "Photographs of Adolf Hitler," which leads to a page on my "German Propaganda Archive. The link was there long before I got interested in Wikipedia, and it isn't really the best link to pictures on my site. Could someone consider changing the link to:
:http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ww2era.htm#Misc
Thanks. Bytwerk 15:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for a link change

message: I removed this because, unlike the rest of section, this makes an argument, a POV, and states it as a fact. This is a NPOV violation. "The aim was slowly to dismantle the institutions of the Catholic Church..." according to whom? It doesnt say. It states it as if this POV were factually accepted by all. This is not the case. Hitler wanted to reform, yes, make it subservient to the State, yes, but from Hitler's pov it was to save it, make it stronger and fit in with his overall religiously based politics. It quotes Hitler as saying that "the belief in God was something "the simple people needed."" But, where is the citation for this alleged quote, in this context? None is provided. These are just a few examples of the overall problem with this section which stands out from the rest of the section. Thus, I removed it and bring it here for discussion.Giovanni33 06:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see Str1977 as restored both changes, I've made, as "POV pushing." Perhaps he can explain his own POV pushing by restoring this by using the talk page, as well? The other part he restored which I removed was: "In public statements, Hitler frequently spoke positively about the Christian heritage of German culture and his belief in Christ, possibly to appeal to the popular religious sentiment. I removed the dissmissive speculation, "possibly to appeal to...." Why not simply stick to the facts instead of speculation? If we must have speculation then it should be properly attributed, otherwise its just plain POV pushing, the kind im all to familiar with.Giovanni33 17:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Str, instead of edit waring on the main article page, why not come to talk to resolve this content dispute? Isnt that what you are supposed to do? I didnt remove your insertion of that speculation again, which pushes a pov, and is unsourced, again---but I will unless you explain yourself here. Edit warring is considered disruptive esp. when its done while avoiding use of the talk page.Giovanni33 19:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: removed this part

message: Str1977 and Gio have been going back and forth on a phrase suggesting that Hitler spoke frequently of Christianity to appeal to  popular religious sentiment, which seems POV to Gio. Well, how about a good source on the matter:
::“Hitler’s evident ability to simulate, even to potentially critical Church leaders, an image of a leader keen to uphold and protect Christianity was crucial to the mediation of such an image to the church-going public by influential members of both major denominations. It was the reason why church-going Christians, so often encouraged by their ‘opinion-leaders’ in the Church hierarchies, were frequently able to exclude Hitler from their condemnation of the anti-Christian Party radicals, continuing to see in him the last hope of protecting Christianity from Bolshevism.” This is from Ian Kershaw, The ‘Hitler Myth: Image and Reality in the Third Reich (Oxford University Press, 1987), p. 109. Bytwerk 12:43, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How can we solve this dispute?? --TheM62Manchester 13:00, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: M62manchester, Great research work. This quote can and should settle the dispute. Thanks. Andries 13:09, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep the disputed phrase and footnote Kershaw. Paul B 13:10, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fine with introducing speculation provided it's attributed to a reputable source, and worded as such. Kershaw qualifies as such a source. I made a minor tweak to the language to reflect what Kerhsaw says more preciesly. Giovanni33 17:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gio, it is not speculation but observation based on research. And no, your minor tweak doesn't reflect what Kershaw says but attempts to sneak (partly) your POV again. We (per Kershaw) know of Hitler's ability in that regard because he used it. Str1977 (smile back) 19:19, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it is speculation. Anytime you say, "possibly because," you are speculating. You are attributing speculation about Hitler's motive. That is fine if it comes from a reputable source, and not stated as a fact, to further your own POV. My POV is only to state the facts, which is all I did by removing the speculation. But we can report what others said, even if it is speculation. The fact of the speculation is allowable if its attributed to someone. However, it must be made accurate to what Kershaw says. That is what my minor edit did. How is it otherwise? Giovanni33 21:10, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gio, you are responding to an outdated version. The former wording indeed read like a speculation, even though the content was accurate. Now, we the Kershaw reference, making it no longer speculation, unless Kershaw speculates. But he doesn't - he is presented the results of his research. And you are misrepresenting him with your newest tweak, as I explained above. So your request in the edit summary is completely pointless - the requested answer is alredy here. And don't base your argument on my using of "meant" - the allusion should be clear to those familiar with modern poetry. Kershaw doesn't mean and doesn't say what you want him to - or rather he says more than that. Str1977 (smile back) 02:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it was pure speculation before. This is what you were restoring and I was getting rid of. I'm glad you now agree it was speculation that was not sourced, even, and that you no longer find it appropriate. Thanks for that. However, now we are presented with Kershaw's studied observation/opinion. Read the quote above. He does not say as a matter of fact that his speaches were simulations as a matter of fact, but that Hitlers evidently had the abiblity to cultivate an image of a Christian defender, which was crucial for its affect on Church going Chrsitians. My tweak only is reporting exactly this point Kershaw is making. Now tell me where I am wrong here, by breaking down the meaning of the above quotation to support what you think it says, instead of what I think it says. This is not the first time we can read the same text that seems pretty straight forward but you come away with a completely different understanding, almost as if you are reading into it things it infact does not say.Giovanni33 06:32, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are wrong in your mere parroting of Kershaw's syntax while denouncing the actual content of what he was saying. According to Kershaw, Hitler had the "evident ability" - what do you think this evidence was, if not Hitler's actual words and deeds? You want to restrict Kershaw to an abstract statement: Hitler had that ability and this ability lead to others being deceived but you want to disconnect from any actual words and deeds, since you are carrying on Hitler's dissimulation, though under opposite conditions, in order to push your POV. If we were writing WP in the way you are treating the quote there would be WP. Str1977 (smile back) 09:41, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And, yes, what I forgot: I didn't say that the former content was speculation - it was however worded as speculation (...probably because...) and it was indeed unsourced. Now, we have a source and you are still trying to sweep things under the carpet, as much as possible, as it contradicts your cherished POV. Str1977 (smile back) 09:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that his "evident ability' refers to his words and deeds. What else can it refer to? And do not I use the same wording as Kershaw does? So how can I be denoucing what he says by sayig what he says? That makes no sense. And does not this "evident ability" to portray himself as a defender of Christianity against the communists, appealing to Chuch going Christians (what Kershaw accurately says), immediately follow with "FOR EXAMPLE," and then one of Hitlers Christian statements to that effect? So how can you say that I have disconnected his statment from his actual words? I have not. "For example" directly connects it. What I have done is report what Kershaw actually says, while you want to restrict what he says to suite your own pov. My tweak is faithful to the actual wording of the source, while yours is restricted so as to make the original point unclear and allow it to possibly say something it does not. I just looked at the new version which quotes more, and don't have a problem with that.Giovanni33 19:46, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I am a German-reader and have studied the original sources as to Hitler's religious beliefs myself. Hitler did not reject occultism, nor Christianity, but he did reject the Roman Catholic Church, the traditional Christian teachings, the literal interpretation of the Bible, the Old Testament. He viewed the doctrinal staticity of e.g. the Catholic Church in the 1920s with admiration, but not out of religious sympathy, but rather, because he found it to be a logical structural support for his own, distinct, ideology (National SOcialism) based on evolution, nationalism, racial sciences, militarism and egalitarianism. I myself added a new picture to the entire article. The top picture was unclear, not in colour (which is preferable), and quite "moody" and gloomy. The new colour movie shot, by Eva Braun, illustrates Hitler's personality in a better way.Smith2006 13:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your comments. I've particular objection to the picture, but it's a bit fuzzy. I don't know how it brings out his personality better than other images. Hitler promoted "egalitarianism"? It's the first I've heard of it. Paul B 19:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Hitler did not promote or believe in egalistarianism. True there was some rhetoric of economic leveling, esp. pointing at against Jews, which was used to motivate some backward class elements, esp. among the youth, the "brown shirts," but Hitler was a capitalist, and he hated notions of equality, which he felt were not natural. Hitler deplored and denounced Marxism for its levelling egalitarianism, which he felt destroyed the natural principle of inequality and the consequent domination of some individuals (an elite) over others. Likewise, Marxian belief in racial equality. Obviously racial inequality and Aryan domination at the core of Hitler's outlook and program are irreconcilable with such notions of equality.Giovanni33 05:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To some extent, Hitler propagate egalitarianism, but only within a certain context or group, i.e. basic equality among "racial Germans" whom he considered collectively above other races and so on. If that sounds like a contradiction, that's the kind of thing you get in Hitler. The Marxese in the post above I'll ignore. Str1977 (smile back) 09:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hitler's appeals to religion