Talk:Japanese sword/Archive 1

message: I removed this bit...
: The Japanese sword blade was razor sharp on one side and blunt on the other. The sharp edge was made of almost 3000 layers of metal forged together, giving the edge great strength. The remaining body of the blade was soft in comparison, making the overall sword somewhat more flexible despite its hard edge.
Because it's worded misleadingly and partially contradicts/partially reiterates the later Construction section.
My apologies if this text is not in the correct section. I noticed when reading this article, that there is a contradiction. Section 4.0 contains the statement " Contrary to popular belief, this does not result in super-strength of a blade. The process of repeatedly folding the blade is performed in order to purify the metal". This says that folding DOES NOT increase the katana's strength. However in section 4.2, it suggest that "Lastly, it (folding of the metal) strengthened the metal (perhaps by more evenly distributing the imperfections)." I am not sure which version of this is true, can anyone comment on this? Mushin 21:01, 22 May 2005 (GMT)
: Both versions are correct, although wording could be tightened. Folding will burn out some imperfections and homogenise the metal, both of which are likely to strengthen it somewhat, but they don't make it "super-strong" as many people seem to believe. Will tweak the wording a bit.
::Thanks for the edit, I think the article reads more consistently now. Mushin
Does anyone know the average number of times a blade would be folded?  What are the typical ranges of folds? -- TOertel
:Blades were folded up to seven or eight times, which gives a few hundred (27 or 28) layers of iron and carbon, the result is a laminate that very closely mimics steel  -- mike dill
:As for magical properties, see above.
See what above? Theres no reference to magical proerties anywhere in the article. DryGrain 09:49, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps someone could write a section on the history of the use of katanas, where their use by officers in WWII as a badge of office, a battlefield weapon, a prized trophy of Allied solders, and yes, as a tool of execution would be well worth a mention along with the rest of the history of the weapon. Just as long as we avoid PoV, of course. --Paul Soth 17:53, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  While I'm unsure if the katana was used for such executions in WWII, the wakizashi has been the traditional blade for decapitating prisoners or performing the final cut for seppuku. I know they continued using the wakizashi is such a fashion until the 1900s, so it may have been those swords instead of the katana. Also, most WWII katanas were typically machine manufactured and, while functional, were of poor quality compared to the handmade family swords. They were typically issued to NCOs and general officers. There are a few swords that were handmade during this period, but usually using the non-traditional methods.
Should This Katana topic have added to it something about the Bokken or Bokuto? the wooden sword that the Samurai trained with?
Someone rather bizzarely replaced the Myths section with a translation in French. Reverted to the English language version as this is the English wikipedia --kudz75 07:01, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

message: While I am aware of Japanese policy concerning World War II era or prior family blades, but does this extend to contemporarily manufactured ones?  Such as, if one were to purchase a sword from a master in Kamakura, would they be able to take it out of the country?  Another factor to this question is that the edge is sharpened (dulled is obviously alright to transport from the country).
-S.G.
:Not a problem, AFAIK.  The blade first has to be properly documented with the Japanese authoroties as they are considered cultural treasures. Unwind-protect 12:18, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japan's policies 

message: I wouldn't know about executing POWs.  But here's a much more fun use for your Katana: apparently they were used to put the lines on a goban (Go board).
The best reference I can offer is the Go Wiki: http://senseis.xmp.net/?path=MakingYourOwnEquipment&page=SurfaceFinish -- can anybody else confirm this?
(Makes sense to me, since Go was a samurai pastime.)
:Not an actual katana, but a curved metal ruler somewhat resembling a katana.  The process is called "tachimori", lit. tachi molding and this is what led to the confusion.  Don't ever try using a katana! :)  Revth 14:36, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other uses for a Katana 

message: Okay, now it's really long. Let me know if and how you cut it down, would you? I'd like to be able to know what the procedure is in the future.
Wow, I didn't realize how much STUFF I had. I've got even more on other, similar topics, too. Japanese armor is actually more interesting than this stuff.
Craigp 17:42, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)
: I think I can cut this down quite a bit; remember, this doesn't have to be a self-contained article. Explaining how politics affected the role of the katana is good, but you don't have to explain the politics as well. There are entries that already cover much of that (see History of Japan for starters) and you're better off linking to those pages rather than recreating material that's already on Wikipedia. 
: I'll trim it down and paste some of the snipped material here; if anybody wants to look at the relevant history/culture pages and see whether it can usefully be transplanted there, go ahead. --Calair 23:44, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, done. I cut a lot of side material (see recs below), removed a few bits that seemed redundant, and juggled stuff in an attempt to reduce length; it's back to about 29K now. --Calair 01:08, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

text: As a way to shorten the article, I'd strongly recommend ditching the parts on katana fiction. These parts make it seem like little kids were contributing to Wikipedia. The adherence to fact is what gives Britannica and Encarta a leg up on Wikipedia. If some people really want to read about Anime and Highlander, maybe the fiction parts should be moved to a separate article called "Katana (Fiction)" or "Sword (Fiction)" - JHP 04:22, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I have taken the sections on katana fiction and moved them to a new article. JHP 05:33, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too Long! 

message: Would someone be interested in applying for a peer review of this article and making another attempt to have it reach a Featured Article status ? Rama 09:10, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Does it need to go back to PR? It was already on FAC... I think it should just go straight back to FAC.  ALKIVAR™ 10:49, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I was thinking of a Peer review first to make certain that it makes it with flying colours. Rama 12:46, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peer review toward FA anyone ? 

message: It seems fine to me. Taking off the tag now. Karmafist 04:15, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Why is this on Cleanup?

message: Does anyone have a source for this?
:Katana remained in use in some occupations, police sometimes using katana not only to catch criminals but to defend themselves from criminals who could be armed with katana as well. At the same time, Kendo was incorporated into police training so that police officers would have at least the minimal training necessary to properly use one.
TomTheHand 18:50, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Police using katana? 

message: Can one of our German(?) speaking wikipedians translate the diagram depicting the katana's components? Would be nice if you could also find a source for it (the de:wiki link is broken). Thanks. Tronno (talk | contribs) 06:25, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diagram 

message: As this is an article for a Japanese curved single-edged katana sword, I don't understand why the influence of the Chinese straight swords has to be emphasized and required so much description as below, which was written in the former article. I don't see people boasting their ancestors' influence (nothing to do with people living today!) in articles such as Economy of Japan or Manufacturing industries of Japan, although it is apparent that Japan has learned from the west (but also creating unique products and modern culture).
:During this period, Chinese swords of the Tang Dynasty were popular in Japan among the royalty, so Chinese and Korean swordsmiths were invited and recruited to Japan where they taught the native Japanese swordsmiths the respective Chinese swordmaking techniques of:
:a) forge-welding / laminated construction
:b) repeated forging and folding of sword blanks to enhance the quality of the steel
:c) differential heat-treatment using clay
:d) ridged cross-sections (consisting of 2 variants known to the Japanese as kiriha-zukuri and shinogi-zukuri). Early swords were in the style of mainland Chinese swords; straight, and either double or single edged. 
:The Nihongi (together with the Kojiki, known as the 2 oldest classical histories in Japan) was complied in AD 720 (Tang Dynasty or the equivalent Japanese "Nara" period) and records a poem* by Empress Suiko (died AD 628):
:"My good Soga** ! The sons of Soga !Were they horses,they would be the steeds of of Hiuga.Were they swords,they would be the good blades of Kure***............."
:**From the "Nihongi", translator: W.G Aston, Charles E. Tuttle Company 1998
:***Soga clan was one of the most powerful clans in the Japanese Imperial Court at that time.
:****Kure was the Japanese pronunciation for "Wu", one of the 3 states of China during the 3 Kingdoms period (220AD - 280AD). In this case, the Empress used it to denote China.
Because of this reason and by compairing the volume of other periods, I prefer the older  article which only says, 
:At the same time, the Japanese took inspiration for swords from the Chinese. Early swords were merely duplicates of Chinese swords, straight and double-edged, but the warring stability of the Asuka period promoted the advancement of weaponry.
This does include the Chinese influence.-- Nobu Sho 20:08, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of the Japanese sword 

message: Saying that lightsabers and Jordan's 'Callandor' are similar to katanas was unclear to me.  I think this assertion is based on an earlier paragraph stating that katanas are believed in popular myth to possess magical powers.  However, there are other instances of so called magical swords in myths and legends.  Also, while I have never seen Callandor, I have seen lightsabers (on film of course) and they don't look anything like a katana - for one they are straight and can cut from any direction.
I have taken the sections on katana fiction and moved them to a new article. JHP 05:34, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  fiction 

message: The artile now reades: "The long blade was used for open combat, while the shorter blade was considered a side arm, and also more suited for stabbing, close combat (such as indoors), and seppuku, a form of ritual suicide."
But I think it's not the short sword (wakizashi), but the TANTO that was used for seppuku (see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku).
:I've been under the impression that it was the other way around. Many samurai, both early and late, usually carried the tanto into battle for use in close combat. Generally they only equipped the short wakizashi when they were carrying the katana: in other words outside the battlefield. Fully armoured Samurai wishing to commit suicide on the battlefield most likely never had the time to do it in any real formal matter, so they prolly (if the situation allowed) stormed into a throng of enemies and get cut down true "samurai-style". Of course there are exceptions. There are several stories about samurai retainers fighting to hold the enemy at bay while their lord takes off his armour and commits seppeku in the formal matter. And just for curiosa: I read about one samurai who committed seppeku by putting his sword in his mouth (point inside his mouth) and jumping of his horse at full speed.
:So my own opinion is that when the samurai were in civilian gear, off the battlefield and carrying the katana and wakizashi, they would (when called for) usually commit seppeku using their short wakizashi sword rather than the tanto. Samurai-women used tanto when they committed seppeku though, (they didn't carry swords of their own).
:Fred26 21:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is another weapon in the same size as a dagger (tanto), essentially an armour-piercing weapon that was most useful in battlefield-scenarios. Another reason not to use wakizashi on the battlefield. Fred26 15:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Use of the tantô for seppuku is well documented. Suicides on the battlefields must have been done using it, as the wakizashi was not carried. Similarly, for judicial suicides documented during the Tokugawa era, the condemned man was provided with a dagger, not a wakizashi length blade (but was often beheaded even before he had time to actually cut himself). It is often assumed that the wakizashi may have been used for suicide in less formal settings, when it was worn rather than a dagger, though there are no definite sources regarding this and it may be a try at explaining an actual use for the short blade, and a reason why the samurai caste insisted on carrying it. It must be noted, though, that during the Tokugawa era, non samurai who were allowed to wear swords, such as scholars and doctors, or commoners allowed a weapon permit for traveling, wore wakizashi; the katana being reserved for actual military personnel and police. --Svartalf 16:21, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Short sword or tanto for suppuku? 

message: I think it should be added that the katana was not a primary weapon but rather a secondary weapon used either as a last resort,to finish off a foe, or for a warrior to kill himself. Also while the katana was a great cutting weapon it was useless against armor and so it may be better than European swords for cutting the European swords are more practical given the requirements of the time (swords which would damage armor).
:Where did you get that idea? It is true that, in the beginning (say, between the 10th and 13th centuries) the bow, spear and naginata were the weapons of first engagement, and the tachi was a last resort... that's because 1) the katana smithing techniques were not yet perfected and 2), the O yoroi type of armor severely restricted arm movements, thus making fencing impractical. On the other hand, as time went on, armor changed, making sword fighting easier, the archery duels lost of their importance, the naginata went out of fashion, and the yari was progressively relegated to mass use by ashigaru commoners, while the noble samurai increasingly relied on the katana, as it replaced the older tachi and the less restrictive dô replaced the yoroi . Historical sources recount MANY fencing duels and feats of swordfighting, their frequency increasing with time, and lethality being high. I suspect you overrate the efficiency of armor which, despite being excellent protection, did not suffice to completely guard its wearer from harm. 
:As for being mostly used to finish off foes or kill oneself, you're dead wrong. head cutting and belly slitting were generally done with a much more convenient tool : a dagger, which samurai, when in armor, carried instead of the longer wakizashi that went with civilian and ceremonial clothing. The examples of samurai using the long blade for suicide are rare and regarded as exceptional ... when the text does not make it clear the great sword was used, assume a short blade. The act was hard enough without making it harder by use of inconvenient tools.
:I may agree that katana may not have been very useful for hacking straight at an armoured part of the foe (though a few instances of helm cleaving are reported), but European blades, in the age of plate armor were not any better at the task. Those were either thrusters, made to get through the weak spots, a task at which the katana is equally adept, or glorified clubs that quickly lost any cutting power if they had any to begin with.--Svartalf 15:36, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparison to European swords