Talk:Soham murders/Archive 1

message: I found quite a bit of emotive tone in this article, particularly in the introductory section. Is it possible for this article to be refined on the basis of the courts' findings of fact, with reference to a copy of that document or relevant news articles if available.
Probably most of my concerns can be addressed if more references can be given.
Matt.hatton 07:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed Neutrality Check

message: I wonder if the best article name for this topic would be Soham murders with Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr as well as Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman all redirecting to that article? Or are separate articles more appropiate? Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 22:12, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing notable about any of them in isolation - I agree with your suggestion. Morwen 22:15, Dec 17, 2003 (UTC)
Good page move, was thinking this myself. Would prefer Soham murders of 2002, there may have been others for all I know... Evercat 22:29, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

text: None that are well known, so I've moved the page to Soham murders. If there are others, we can always have Soham murders (disambiguation)... As for where to put the material, I think a number of separate articles wold be good. There are facts about each of the people involved that aren't directly relevant to the murders. --  Oliver P. 01:39, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

text: Yes, they're only in here because of the murders, but why someone is in here is a separate question from how the information on them is best organised. I agree that the information on the murders and investigations and so on should be consolidated in this article (until it gets too unwieldy, anyway), but a lot of background information on the people (mostly Huntley, of course) has been turning up which I think is easier understood if laid out in chronological order in biographical articles rather than in the order in which the information came to light. -- Oliver P. 03:31, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Article name

message: Ian Huntley should be merged with this pageas he is only notable for this crime.--Lucy-marie 18:53, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: In the section "The Police Reform Act 2002" (in itself, probably a misnamed section) there are several references to David Blunkett that seem to me to have no justified place in this article, though they quite properly should be in the David Blunkett article. To itemise:
1. "The Chief Constable of Cambridgeshire Police, Tom Lloyd, whose appointment in June 2002 had been approved by Blunkett...." Seeing as ALL chief constable appointments are approved by the incumbent Home Secretary, is this clause relevant?
2. Final sentence, on Blunkett's resignation. This had absolutely nothing to do with this case or the aftermath, and should not be in this article.
In addition the first paragraph could do with a rewrite for clarity.
I don't believe any of this is controversial so I will make the changes I've suggested; please let me know if you disagree. Emeraude 12:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  David Blunkett/Police Reform Act

message: The Maxine Carr article and this article should be merged as Carr is only known in relation to this case and the only reason the tabloid press went bananas regarding her was in relation to this case. Without the full merging of the Maxine Carr article important information will be lost and the Maxine Carr article cannot establish notability without this case.--Lucy-marie (talk) 02:36, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maxin Carr is notable in her own right.Chump Manbear (talk) 23:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Plenty, try looking. Object to any merger, her coverage has continued well after the murders. One Night In Hackney303 23:29, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger 

message: I seem to recall that later on in the same day that the two girls went missing, the body of a man was found on a railway line near their homes in an apparent suicide. I think it was later discovered to be an unrelated incident, and was just a terrible coincidence. But surely this was considered in the police investigation, as the man was a prome suspect at the time. There is no mention of this in the Wikipedia article, but surely it is relevant to the section on the murders, as it shows that Huntley was not the only suspect in the investigation?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.63.116.72 (talk) 13:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Corpse found on the same day as the murder

message: I do not believe that the article should be split as I do not believe that substantial new sources have arisen proving the notability of Ian Hutly outside of the context of this article is notable. This is epitomized in the section titled "Huntlys Trial" which is all about Huntly being on trial for these murders. He has not committed any other high profile murders such as this double murder and is inextricably linked to this article. The article was also correctly merged and the discussion can be found here.--Lucy-marie (talk) 00:57, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split of Huntly 

message: Aaron Nicholls should, if he merits a mention on Wikipedia at all, get a brief mention here and not have his own article. If Ian Huntley no longer has his own page I can't see that Nicholls is notable enough for one. It is difficult to find anything about him at all on the internet - there is one online report of his crime that I can find, and he only seems to have come to brief public attention for the Huntley connection.Unlikelyheroine (talk) 22:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aaron Nicholls 

message: "Huntley added that Carr had told him to burn the girls' bodies after he murdered them, a claim which contradicted the jury's opinion that Carr was not guilty of assisting an offender and had not known that Huntley had committed the murders."
A bit pedantic I admit, but did the Jury add a rider actually expressing that opinion? I was under the impression they merely found her not guilty of assisting an offender, meaning simply that it was not proved beyond a reasonable doubt that she had done that. i suppose it goes more to the heart of does .not guilty. mean 'innocent', but to my knowledge no actual opinion was expressed by the jury in delivering a verdict.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.122.35 (talk) 01:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Jury Opinion

message: Why has it been deemed necessary to disambiguate this article with the year?  There aren't any other "Soham murders" articles so the year is not required. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:48, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved the article back to where it should be according to the usual titling, ie. Year-Place-Crime.  The Rambling Man (talk) 09:57, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not just remove the year and end this controversy right here and now. Rather than creating a potential edit war like the one seen on the Top Gear articles.--Lucy-marie (talk) 10:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I'm not sure why you felt it necessary to go ahead and make the move in the first place.  It's fine as it is now.  Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:27, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It shouldn't have been moved form the original title and at the time it couldn't be moved back over the redirect. The original title was uncontroversial and in wide use, so why was it moved in the first place. Lets go back to the original title and go from there.--Lucy-marie (talk) 19:45, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It can always be moved back over the redirect if required.  I didn't move it to a controversial title, you did.  The current title, at least, is more uniform with other similar articles.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Please explain how this is controversial, you are saying your way is the uniform way of doing things please provide policy to support this statement.--Lucy-marie (talk) 19:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you explain why you moved it to where you did please.  Cheers.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:55, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is childish of you please can you answer the question put before making your own assertions and claims. THe edit was made to be in line with other types of articles e.g Top Gear (current format), and Top Gear (original format) , Independent (politician) etc these are a few examples where the brackets are used to denote the subject of the article which was what my edit achieved. Can you now please answer the question I put to you.--Lucy-marie (talk) 20:01, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Asking for consensus on this is in the exact opposite of Bold, can you show a consensus for your version and the policy stating this is how the page should be titled.--Lucy-marie (talk) 20:14, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Once again, being bold includes being useful.  The move you made was inline with creating disambiguation pages.  Is this a dab page?  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:18, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

text: I shall ask again can you show a consensus for your version and the policy stating this is how the page should be titled.--Lucy-marie (talk) 20:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Lucy, you have considerable experience here.  Can you not see that what you did was inline with creating a disambiguation page?  When people come onto Wikipedia and want to learn about the Soham murders, why would they add " (2002)" to their search?  It makes no sense.  Yet again it's another case of making articles more difficult to find rather than easier.  So your being "bold" is all very well but isn't helping.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I shall ask again can you show a consensus for your version and the policy stating this is how the page should be titled.--Lucy-marie (talk) 20:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No Lucy, you're right, I can now see your version was as good as anyone else's.  If you'd like me to move it back then just say.  Your determination to make pages more and more difficult to find amazes me.  I'll look forward to hearing more about your boldness.  But just remember this - personal attacks are unacceptable, even via edit summary.  And being bold is one thing, being reckless is another.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Done.  Cheers.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article title 

message: This is to discuss on whether Height should be included in the infobox. Please add you thought and views below.
I believe that height should be included as it was used as a descriptor for the girls when there were being searched for and is therefor pertinent information regarding the girls. This information also cannot be ascertained for the photograph which has been provided, so should be included in the infobox.--Lucy-marie (talk) 12:02, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe its current inclusion in the article is sufficient.  The person infobox has dozens of parameters which could be filled in for this example (e.g. parents) but which aren't directly relevant to the subject matter.  So I don't think it needs to be in the infobox.  The Rambling Man (talk) 14:40, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Height in Infobox 

message: Ian Huntley was convicted of the murders by a jury, therefore shouldn't he be the "convicted killer" to reflect the jury's opinion, rather than just the "killer"? His culpability was effectively proven beyond doubt, but not completely. Lingotic (talk) 17:09, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of "convicted" near start of article 

message: Although the use of surnames is normal practice in Wikipedia, I can't help thinking that two 10-year old murder victims should be referred to by their first name rather than as "Wells" and "Chapman" (see this discussion in The Guardian on this very subject with reference to newspaper practice).  Will change to reflect this. 92.18.202.140 (talk) 21:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Surname or first name? 

message: The infobox for Ian Huntley indicates a birth location of Grimsby, is there any reference for this as this Times article gives a location of Immingham. Keith D (talk) 20:58, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Ian Huntley birth location

message: I came to this page whilst looking for info about Maxine Carr. Whilst I agree with the various mergers that have taken part, I have rewritten it somewhat to separate a lot of the info about Carr out to its own sections. I believe it reads better this way.Steve3742 (talk) 16:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Maxine Carr

message: There are no citations at all for the background on Huntley, and not much information available via googling the web (specifically on the peace corps and cockfighting charges).  These really need cites added, surely? --138.37.81.69 (talk) 11:07, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Ian Huntley's background

message: I understood that Ian Huntley worked at completely different school from Holley Wells and Jessica Chapman. They knew him because he was the boyfriend of their teaching assistent, Maxine Carr. Therefore any background screening that would kept him from that job would have had no effect on the murder. 
This should be added after the discussion of the lack of screening. 91.64.161.0 (talk) 14:12, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you any references for the information? Keith D (talk) 19:05, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: After the trial: Ian Huntley screening is irrelevent to murder

message: I think it should be spelled out in this article that Huntley was not the caretaker at his victims' school and his access to them was through his partner Carr who was a teaching assistant at their primary school. The impression given by this article, in common with virtually every media report, is that Huntley was 'their' caretaker and couldn't have committed his crime if he hadn't got the job.
Not only is this an important piece of factual information it is also highly relevant to the question of Bichard's recommendations.
130.246.132.26 (talk) 15:11, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you got a reliable source that could be used to support such a change, as you say most of the sources indicate he was their caretaker? Keith D (talk) 17:00, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: St Andrew's Primary School (Soham) was the girls' school as indicated by the Wikipedia article on the school. Soham Village College was the school where Huntley was caretaker. This news story , unusually, refers to the fact that he worked at a different school than that which the girls attended.--130.246.132.26 (talk) 13:15, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The OP made a good point here which I think is still relevant. January (talk) 18:51, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The distinction may not be so clear-cut. It is evident from various sources e.g. mapping that the two schools are adjacent, and this Daily Mail article even describes them as being on the "same site". If a distinction between the two schools is emphasised, then it should also be mentioned that they are adjacent nonetheless. Scil100 (talk) 07:58, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Huntley the caretaker 

message: The main article says at least a dozen women have been attacked and persecuted because they have been mistaken for Maxine Carr. Is it a good idea to post a very visible sidebar with a photo and identifying details about her? Could that information be subsumed into the main story, and be made to read less like a wanted poster?
Belmontian (talk) 21:36, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Since she's still alive, you'd have to find a copyright-free image of her, since it is as yet too soon for her police mugshot to be out of copyright. As for a "very visible sidebar", remember she wasn't the actual murderer and convicted of being a lesser participant in the crime, so emphasising her in that way might be taken to be giving her too much prominence. Rodhullandemu 21:42, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is the famous mugshot image of her in the article, but it is unclear whether this is an accurate version of her current appearance. It is not really the job of Wikipedia articles to say to assorted morons "Don't attack anyone unless she looks like this." Ironically, an up-to-date image could cause more problems than it solves. See also .--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 09:37, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The story you refer to is absolute case in point. Even the most cursory glance at photos will show that he has different colour eyes from Venables, which shows quite how thoroughly stupid the self-appointed vigilantes can be (in case we didn't already know that). Regardless of what Wikipedia's role in this should or shouldn't be, there is nothing in practice that we can do with such people anyway. If some people want to inflict some kind of extrajudicial punishment on Carr because they cannot grasp the concept that the reason for her comparatively light sentence was that a court of law accepted that she had believed Huntley to be innocent (and therefore acquitted her of assisting an offender), then frankly there is no point trying to reason with them. These are people responsible for necessitating wasting millions of pounds of taxpayers' money on providing false identities for the likes of Carr, Venables, and even Huntley's mother (who has committed no crime, and has even stated that Huntley should never be released). Really, there is no reason for any editor to bother to waste time aiming their writing at such an audience. Scil100 (talk) 17:23, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should Carr's photo and identifying details be included? 

message: Hiya to all.  
A question on the titling, as this article came up in a discussion about use of capitals in article naming on Talk:Denial of the Armenian Genocide#Requested move; specifically, about the capitalization of titles of events like these.  Is Moors Murders a proper noun, and if so, shouldn't it be Soham Murders? 
Here's my sense of it, copied from over there at the RfM, [where the proposal (not mine, I had questions that led to you) was to move the page from Denial of the Armenian Genocide to Armenian Genocide denial]:
This was my first question, because I thought, "Well, this would conform better to the Manual of Style (which does not cover this specific point...YET):
*"However, should it not be Armenian genocide denial, unless there is some legitimate reason why in this case genocide should be capitalized?  Further, why should not (for examples) the articles Armenian Genocide, Assyrian Genocide, Srebrenica Genocide, Rwandan Genocide follow the same naming conventions as do Greek genocide, Dersim genocide, and Burundi genocide?  I have the same question concerning titles containing the word massacre: Why Parsley Massacre but Rohingya massacre?  Perhaps if such topics are considered events and as such are considered proper nouns...but I'd like to see all such titles conform across the board, to a coherently stated convention, whichever convention is supported by either clear policy or robust consensus.  I haven't looked hard for it at all, but maybe someone else has: Is there any established WP policy, guideline, or village pump decision on precisely this?"
:The response was:
*"I'll explain my vision. In the titles it is a name of an event ("Greek Genocide"), a term and not word-combination (adjective + noun) to mark the belonging of the event. The same way the terms for Cuban Missile Crisis or Caribbean Crisis and not Caribbean crisis with Caribbean as an adjective and crisis as a noun. Or the Berlin Blockade, for another example."
:to which I queried further:
*"Is your vision... supported by a WP policy, and if so, please point me to that policy.  I studied WP:Article titles and WP:Naming conventions#Capitalization to no avail.  Where is this 'an event, or series of events, is a proper noun whose terms shall be capitalized' policy, if there is one?  Declaring that something is an Event (not to opine in any way that this E/event isn't one) and thus is a proper noun that should be capitalized, could be controversial to some, and might encompass different scopes for different folks, so please explain also, if you can, why (as examples--there are a vast number of 'E/events' that might have this issue) the E/events currently titled (and capitalized like this-->) Greek genocide, Dersim genocide, Burundi genocide, and Rohingya massacre should not be capitalized as you propose for the move to Armenian Genocide denial, if there is a good reason to handle each differently. Staying arbitrarily within the narrow category of death and dying-themed events only, why Moors murders and Soham murders, but Parker-Hulme Murder?  (the current examples suggest, somewhat irregularly, that single death is an Event, but multiple death is an event, unless it's a whole lot of death, in which case it's an Event??)  What is the WP policy, if there is one, that sets these sorts of boundaries (or not) for E/events of all flavors?"
:and got this answer:
*"I do think that massacres or genocides you noted above should be capitallised. Those are events. A murder is an event, a pogrom is an event, a mass murder (massacre) is an event, a genocide is an event, but an article "Mass murders" is not an event, an article "The genocides of Europe" is not AN event or Sexual disorder is a collective word-combination and a collective article but Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder is a name of one disorder. the same way Greek, Assyrian or Armenian Genocides are separate events and not some variety of genocides or something. I don't even thing this was ever discussed. Just all the WP:RSs write it with a capital letter so no doubts."
:Please share your thoughts on the idea of changing the name of this page to Soham Murders, a proper noun, recognizing the significance of the event.  Yes, I do get that the Soham Murders were events, but so are all the events that comprise any given genocide or massacre.  I'm going to try to edit the Manual of Style to address this question, and before I do, I'd like to find out what community consensus is on the matter.
:Sorry so long-winded.  =)  Duff (talk) 04:41, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ditto. This is a WP:VILLAGEPUMP issue.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 16:38, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soham murders or Soham Murders? 

message: This article is currently the 2nd Google hit for "Soham". It all happened quite a while ago now, and it can't be nice for the residents that the subject be given such prominent attention forever after. As a courtesy to the locals, can the article be renamed to "murders of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman"? For sake of comparison, the remainder of the first few pages of Google hits for "Soham" consists mostly of just normal everyday stuff; it's just this article at number 2 that sticks out. I don't know what Wikipedia's internal style guide might say about this, but in view of the prominent Google position I reckon that external considerations deserve some weight as well. Do you agree? Thanks. --Money money tickle parsnip (talk) 21:24, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a reasonable question, but not because it may affect the residents of Soham, but whether this title is in keeping with our normal naming guidelines.  Normally we'll go with the common name, and right now that's "Soham murders".  If you wish to pursue this further then we have a "requested move" process which can be found at WP:RM.  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:35, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: People in Hungerford and Dunblane have the same problem with a Google search. Search engines rank results by what people are looking for when they type in certain keywords. Inevitably, this is going to bring up the crimes with which the towns are most associated. Wikipedia uses the WP:COMMONNAME for articles, which in this case is "Soham murders", eg .--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 05:42, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, the fact is that many people associated the name "Soham" with the Soham murders. --TBM10 (talk) 10:14, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  a suggestion to change the title 

message: "It took nearly two weeks before the police became aware of previous sexual allegations against Huntley and, although he was the last person to see either of the two children, his story was not effectively checked out early during the investigation."
I'd recommend the final part of this sentence be changed to something like: his story was not effectively verified during the early stages of the investigation.
2.99.26.236 (talk) 03:32, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor English 

message: This article in today's Guardian says that the families of the victims are asking media organisations to stop using the photograph taken just before they were abducted. Should we reconsider whether we use it in the article? SmartSE (talk) 22:11, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: From the Guardian article linked above: "McGibbon argues that the use of the picture amounts to a breach of copyright but is more concerned about the wishes of the families being flouted". See also Society of Editors website here:  "[McGibbon] believes that Mrs Wells retains the copyright, and a lawyer approached by Press Gazette, Christina Michalos, agrees that to be the case." If there is any question of a breach of copyright, we cannot use the image. I will delete it, at least until the copyright issue can be decided. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:19, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Copyright isn't an issue for us since we are claiming fair use under US law. Whether to include it or not is an editorial decision. SmartSE (talk) 22:22, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I've asked for advice on this at [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions#Soham murder victims image, and suggest we wait for a response before proceeding further. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:45, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

text: P.S. looking at the image licensing details, I see that it has been tagged as "not a sufficient claim of fair use", for what that is worth... AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:49, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The image probably is copyrighted. It comes down to fair use and respecting the wishes of the parents.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:21, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: When the image has been used by the likes of the Daily Mail it is credited and marked as copyright PA Wire/Press Association images. MilborneOne (talk) 19:22, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request not to use image