Talk:Joseph McCarthy/Archive 3

message: Nobs01: Hello you socialist scumbag "Although McCarthy's activities did not result in any convictions or criminal prosecutions for espionage, intercepted Soviet communications from the now-declassified VENONA project, as well as the opening of Soviet Archives, indicate that some of the individuals he pursued were, in fact, Soviet spies or Communist sympathizers."
I dispute the neutrality of the article simply because it portrays  McCarthy in a far too favorable light while glossing over the enormous damage he did, the lives and careers ruined, the trampling of individual freedoms, abuse of power, etc.  The above quote is a case in point.  The simple fact is that it was not against the law in the United States at that time to be a Communist.  Neither has it ever been proven that any of the "spies" passed on information relating to national security issues to the Soviets.  It also makes no mention of the McCarthy's exaggerating his wartime service record during his campaign for the Senate in 1946, nor of his smear campaign against his primary and general election opponents.  Before McCarthy began his crusade, he was considered the worst Senator in Washington, due to his taking lobbying money (excessive even by Washington standards).  The anti-Communist crusade was a way for him to rescue his declining political fortunes.  A Senate committee investigated, then refuted, McCarthy's claims, but this got scant mention in the newspapers at the time because it wasn't sensational enough to grab the public's attention.  Finally, the health problems that led to his death were indeed caused by his alcoholism.  The fact that laws of evidence and Constitutional guarantees were suspended under his opportunistic, political reign of terror leaves me totally outraged that there are those who defend him to this day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vodnik (talk • contribs) 15:50, 23 March 2006
: Vodnik -- I'm inclined to agree with you. I think "laws of evidence and Constitutional guarantees were suspended..." is a nice turn of phrase, too. I'd like to see you do some edits on this article, but I ask you to be circumspect as you do so. Document your sources, be careful about NPOV language, and all that stuff. It's easy to set off an edit war on an article like this one. Also, note that you can sign and date-stamp your comments in a Talk page by typing four tildes: "~~~~" KarlBunker 21:34, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality (part 2)

message: Added reference which is FAR more credible than Ann Coulter -- a KGB official who was Chief Archivist of the Foreign Operations and Foreign Subversion Directorates for over 20 years, and defected with CUBIC YARDS of documents about KGB operations against the west, INCLUDING material directly relevant to McCarthy's complaints about KGB penetration of the US State Department..  My edit should probably be reviewed by someone else for better wording (I'll admit that I'm one who thinks McCarthy has been basically smeared by a press that was, even at that time, strongly manipulated by KGB Agents of Influence -- which Mitrokhin also discusses as standard procedure against any person who called attention to any operations which the KGB was actually running, including other prominent figures such as  FBI head J Edgar Hoover who I personally dislike, but who was definitely attacked through KGB disinformation campaigns )  Akulkis 07:45, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vasili Mitrokhin's documentation on KGB Penetration of US State Department.

message: I feel that it has covered all viewpoints and it is very accurate. It's the best most detailed article about McCarthy that I have found online. I vote to take off the nuetrality sign.
: Removed the neutrality tag, as the tone of the article is IMO better than it was even before non-neutral material started being added. In some recent edits I've removed text that seemed either excessively hostile toward McC, or unrealistically defensive of him. Naturally, the neutrality tag can be replace by anyone who thinks it belongs there. KarlBunker 12:32, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: take off nuetrality disputes???

message: "Many charged the Senator had been duped or influenced by neo-Nazis." Many? who exactly? Kingturtle 18:48, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Communists.  They use Nazi as a scare-word.  Anyone who opposes them is smeared with the Nazi epithet.  Its kind of iconic, when you consider how many things that Hitler pioneered--'national health care' and outlawing private ownership and posession of firarms that are now the heart of the left's political culture, as well as the very tight ties between the political left and Fortune 500 companies (regulations impede small businesses much more than small businesses) that, lately, the closest thing to a Nazi party in America is, in fact, leftists. Akulkis 15:01, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  who exactly? 

message: I started an article St. Mary's Parish, Appleton where,Joe McCarthy was buried.This is for future reference.Thank you-RFD 16:41, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  St. Mary's Parish-Appleton 

message: Does a list of people named by McCarthy exist? Has anyone compiled a complete list based on who was asked to testify? So far I have read about named people and lists, but not seen one. There is a list of people named in the VENONA transcripts, but I no way to see if they were really named by McCarthy. Can anyone help?
===Tydings===
Dorothy Kenyon, Haldore Hanson, Philip Jessup, Esther Brunauer, Frederick Schuman, Harlow Shapley, Gustavo Duran, John Stewart Service, and Owen Lattimore),
===VENONA===
Mary Jane Keeney, Lauchlin Currie, Virginius Frank Coe; William Ludwig Ullman; Nathan Gregory Silvermaster; Harold Glasser; Allan Rosenberg, Cedric Belfrage
*the article on Mary Jane Keeney mentions her being named by McCarthy
*I dont see any names in common on the two lists. And by having Nathan Gregory Silvermaster in the article we are crediting McCarthy with uncovering the Silvermaster spy ring. Is this correct? Or do the names on the VENONA list have nothing to do with McCarthy and are just there to show who was uncovered by VENONA?
Can someone help verify that McCarthy uncovered the Silvermaster spy ring. Otherwise the VENONA names should be removed except those with a connection to the Tydings or other McCarthy hearings such as Mary Jane Keeney. What do you think?
Accuracy in Media a conservative group reports that Owen Lattimore was uncovered by McCarthy as was Annie Lee Moss and no others . So I am going to remove the VENONA list, as no one on that list was actually named by McCarthy and its inclusion in the article gives the appearance that he uncovered the Silvermaster spy ring. If you disagree, leave a message here.
:I disagree.  The list leaves open the question as to whether McCarthy was right and actually had a list.  It's relevant to the article and it makes the reader think.--Mr j galt 18:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree with kwud, and I've removed that list. KarlBunker 00:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The List 

message: Mary Jane Keeney, Lauchlin Currie, Virginius Frank Coe; William Ludwig Ullman; Nathan Gregory Silvermaster; Harold Glasser; Allan Rosenberg, Cedric Belfrage
*the article on Mary Jane Keeney mentions her being named by McCarthy
*I dont see any names in common on the two lists. And by having Nathan Gregory Silvermaster in the article we are crediting McCarthy with uncovering the Silvermaster spy ring. Is this correct? Or do the names on the VENONA list have nothing to do with McCarthy and are just there to show who was uncovered by VENONA?
Can someone help verify that McCarthy uncovered the Silvermaster spy ring. Otherwise the VENONA names should be removed except those with a connection to the Tydings or other McCarthy hearings such as Mary Jane Keeney. What do you think?
Accuracy in Media a conservative group reports that Owen Lattimore was uncovered by McCarthy as was Annie Lee Moss and no others . So I am going to remove the VENONA list, as no one on that list was actually named by McCarthy and its inclusion in the article gives the appearance that he uncovered the Silvermaster spy ring. If you disagree, leave a message here.
:I disagree.  The list leaves open the question as to whether McCarthy was right and actually had a list.  It's relevant to the article and it makes the reader think.--Mr j galt 18:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree with kwud, and I've removed that list. KarlBunker 00:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: VENONA

message: Today User:DKalkin wrote "rv - not only POV, just plain demonstrably false. VENONA/Soviet records proved there were spies, and that McCarthy didn't know who they were."
Couldn't agree more.  Also, the list only showed only more than 300 people, not the army of thousands McCarthy and Congress claimed were involved in a conspiracy to overthow the government. -- Jason Palpatine 04:31, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: False

message: Recently added to "References in the Media":
: "In the 1995 television film Truman, the early rise of Senator McCarthy is touched upon, including the refusal of President Truman to end the Senator's public career by leaking the Senator homosexuality, to the press."
I wonder if this should be removed the article. It sounds like a scene that would be made up for a movie, rather than something that's likely to have occurred. Does anyone know any corroboration that Truman ever considered doing such a thing? KarlBunker 23:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Somebody removed the above quote on 6 Feb 06. I tried tracing the reference or source down and couldn't get anything, so I suppose that it can't be substantiated. TGC55 23:09, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: There is a TV movie named "Truman" (USA - 1995), but I see no reference to the above passage in any comments about the movie on "IMDb". I would try to get a DVD of the movie, but it's not available here. Even so, I don't think a "biopic" would be considered a "secondary source". Maybe the original book might have some reference to such an incident -- if it really occured.`19:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Whith all of the smearing and lying that was going on at the time, it's possible that, even if the scene were a true event, the charge was a fabrication.  I recomend keeping it out of the article.  -- Jason Palpatine 04:38, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Truman & stuff 

message: I recently removed a 3rd paragraph to the introduction of the article which read:
:To this day, McCarthy remains controversial. Some feel that he provided a great service to his country, while others (most likely a majority of Americans) feel that his legacy was a dark spot in American history.
I actually have no objection to the political content of this paragraph. I just think it's awkward and badly written. Something the McCarthy article should have, instead of this paragraph, is a short section somewhat like the section "Continuing controversy" in the McCarthyism article (though more focused than that section). That is, a paragraph or two that discusses things like contemporary defenses of McCarthy and the rebuttals to those. I'm currently in a phase of WikiLaziness, so I don't know if I'll get around to writing such a section myself.
I also put back the article's use of the word "freewheeling" in reference to McCarthy's accusations. The word is accurate by any objective standard. KarlBunker 10:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Freewheeling", 3rd paragraph re. ongoing dispute 

message: It's quite funny that the pro-McCarthy editors here have gotten into trouble for inserting poorly-sourced, unequivocally judgmental "lists of Communist spies".  Learn from your idol, boys.  If you're going to throw around lists like that, make sure you can back it up.
--kwud 22:28, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meta-comment on VENONA debates 

message: I started an aricle about Mackville, Wisconsin which 3-5 miles north of Appleton, Wisconsin. The family and ancestors of Joseph McCarthy had lived in and still live in the Mackville area. There is a McCarthy Road in the area. I wanted to pass this information along.Thank you-RFD 20:52, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mackville, Wisconsin 

message: Although there isn't any credible evidence for this, shouldn't there be a 'rumors' section where the possibility of McCarthy being a communist himself should be discussed? After all, why else would he be so fervently anti-communist?
::If there are credible rumors for which you have a reliable source then certianly we should add them. However this seems to be a rumor that you are making up. That isn't aceptable. -Will Beback 21:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The word "communist" is only a label.  If you're suggesting that he was actually a member of, or sympathetic to, the Communist Party, then the answer is no.  However all of his actions fall under the guidelines of the doctrines and ideologies of The Communist Manifesto.   If we define him by his actions, then (and this is the basis of) the "McCarthy a communist himself" argument is valid.  Murrow himself said that, because of his actions, McCarthy was an "aid and comfort to out enemies."  That's straight out of the treason statute! -- Jason Palpatine 04:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  McCarthy a communist himself? 

message: I think this article has slipped way off to the liberal side. I think it should be balanced side.
:What specifically do you object to? -- Donald Albury(Talk) 11:38, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For starters, the continued villification of a man for doing nothing other than telling the truth....OH...that's right...telling the truth about Communists is an unforgiveable sin...pardon me, I forgot that little rule.  Go right ahead, Donald Albury... your side slipped in the 2000 elections by publicly revealing that it's not only a right, but a duty of all "progressives"/socialists/Marxists to lie whenever it will advance "the movement."  Guess what....we're NOT going to let you get away with it.  Akulkis 03:01, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  nuetrality? 

message: "25 Oct 1952 "Joe McCarthy is a bachelor of 43 years. [...] He seldom dates girls and if he does he laughingly describes it as window dressing. It is common talk among homosexuals in Milwaukee who rendezvous in the White Horse Inn that Senator Joe McCarthy has often engaged in homosexual activities." Hank Greenspun, Las Vegas Sun. McCarthy briefly considered a suit but took no action, because it would have meant testifying." 132.241.246.111 02:02, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  why I'm linking to rotten