Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geography of Poland/Archive1

message: Voivodship     	Example	#CDAA7D
Powiat (County)	Example	#C1CDC1
Gmina (Commune)	Example	#9BCD9B
--Emax 20:00, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Examples

message: Currently, we have only one: . It is getting very large, with over 800 articles. See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/Archive13#Poland_geo-stub_split for proposal on splitting this category further. Division by voivodships seems like a good idea - if any voivodship would have 30+ articles (wikiproject minimum limit), we can create a relavant stub. A Poland-struct-stub seems more disputed, but I also think it would be useful. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:46, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: More stub templates

message: Having arrived belatedly to this discussion, but feeling strongly about the subject, I would like to add my voice to those who advocate using familiar English-language terms where feasible:  hence, "county" for powiat, and "province" for województwo.  
I suspect that this model could be applied satisfactorily to most countries; and that seems  preferable to operating with dozens of equivalent terms.  logologist 09:30, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Powiat'' and ''województwo''

message: Ok, let's vote on Powiat vs. County and Gmina vs. Commune for start. BTW If you think that this proposal should be expanded, please, feel free to do so.--SylwiaS | talk 01:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked the articles on pl Wiki, and they are short indeed. It might be a good idea to merge them with towns/villages. Still, we need to have one term to call them.--SylwiaS | talk 05:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unlike some countries, where towns and communes are coterminous, the gmina and its seat are very much separate entities. Most Polish Wikipedia articles are short because the initial version was bot-generated. Ausir 22:43, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Indeed gmina and its capital town are distinct entities. However, the basic levels of administration as small as gminas are completely non-notable and unencyclopedic. Note that in 99% of cases the commune consists of the town itself and.. little more than a village or two. Nothing that couldn't be fitted in the article on the capital town. Anyway, I believe the decision to start the voting was a tad premature, as most of the people cast their votes before all of the proposals were added to the list. Halibutt 08:02, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A village or two? An average commune has 24 municipalities or 17 with sołectwo status (2478 communes, about 60,000 towns and villages in Poland, 42,000 sołectwos). Ausir 08:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Does it mean that every single village should have its article in Wikipedia? 60k articles saying that XXX is a village in Poland would add little to wikipedia except for the number of separate articles of sub-stub quality. Halibutt 14:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I believe that every village in the world is by definition notable enough to be in Wikipedia, even if it starts as a short stub. The stubs generated by a bot in Polish Wikipedia are being constantly expanded (not to mention it led to cleaning up the whole mess in our old village articles), although we only have the 42k sołectwos, not all 60k villages. An example of a good gmina article can be :pl:Gmina Boronów. Polish and English Wikipedia will certainly eventually have articles about all Polish villages - it's only a matter of time. I doubt anyone would succesfully AfD a village article, anyway. Ausir 19:00, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Heh, last days at pl-wiki were described couple of villages in... Czech Republic (:pl:Bocanovice, :pl:Chotěbuz, :pl:Mosty u Jablunkova, :pl:Nýdek, :pl:Ropice) :) So why do not describe Polish villages at enwiki? Even if there wouldn't be any bot-generating action, I will try to describe gminas in powiat cieszyński, only waiting for decision about naming standards... D T G 21:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Can't the bot run here? Invite him! :-) Tobias Conradi (Talk) 11:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Is "District" supposed to be a synonym for "County," and "Municipality" —  for "Commune"?  logologist|Talk 15:50, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If I understand the intent correctly, I think "District" might perhaps be better reserved for a term such as "Ziemia."  As for "Municipality," "Commune" has the advantage of requiring a third as many syllables and being equally applicable to non-city entities.  logologist|Talk 17:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd reserve district for dystrykt, that is the historical units of administration introduced by the Nazis. Halibutt 02:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine — use "dystrykt" for the Nazi entities, and let's use the English "district" for Polish entities!  logologist|Talk 04:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

text: So, we'd have Districts (gmina), Distrikts (voivodship-sized in fact) and Dystrykts (used to refer to non-Polish entities). A perfect solution I'd say. So unambiguous... But seriously, it's been discussed ad nauseam and I still fail to see why should we invent our own names when there's a perfectly fitting set of names. Halibutt 06:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

text: It would have to be researched how these expressions are used.  "Gmina miejska" might, for example, be rendered as "city commune"; and "miasto na prawach powiatu," as "county city."  But the best thing would be to determine how the expressions are used functionally, then find the best English functional equivalents.  In some cases, it might not be necessary to translate the entire clumsy expression.  Anatopism 21:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I gather that the term "commune" is used both for cities and for non-city entities, e.g. for rural areas; hence it seems that "commune" ("gmina") cannot be translated into English simply as "city."  Anatopism 22:14, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gmina miejska is urban commune, I think. Ausir 23:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Concur.  logologist|Talk 15:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Or even Puławy County (pl: powiat puławski, other translations: Powiat of Puławy, Puławy District, Puławy Poviat)...  Ausir 17:40, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vote 

message: ==== Powiat i.e. Powiat of Puławy ====
# Halibutt 00:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vote Powiat vs. County 

message: # Halibutt 00:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Powiat i.e. [[Powiat of Puławy]] 

message: # Support --SylwiaS | talk 01:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[County]], i.e. [[Puławy County]] 

message: # Support MCiura 09:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[District]], i.e. [[Puławy district]] 

message: ==== Gmina of Choroszcz ====
#Gdarin | talk 09:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked the articles on pl Wiki, and they are short indeed. It might be a good idea to merge them with towns/villages. Still, we need to have one term to call them.--SylwiaS | talk 05:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unlike some countries, where towns and communes are coterminous, the gmina and its seat are very much separate entities. Most Polish Wikipedia articles are short because the initial version was bot-generated. Ausir 22:43, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Indeed gmina and its capital town are distinct entities. However, the basic levels of administration as small as gminas are completely non-notable and unencyclopedic. Note that in 99% of cases the commune consists of the town itself and.. little more than a village or two. Nothing that couldn't be fitted in the article on the capital town. Anyway, I believe the decision to start the voting was a tad premature, as most of the people cast their votes before all of the proposals were added to the list. Halibutt 08:02, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A village or two? An average commune has 24 municipalities or 17 with sołectwo status (2478 communes, about 60,000 towns and villages in Poland, 42,000 sołectwos). Ausir 08:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Does it mean that every single village should have its article in Wikipedia? 60k articles saying that XXX is a village in Poland would add little to wikipedia except for the number of separate articles of sub-stub quality. Halibutt 14:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I believe that every village in the world is by definition notable enough to be in Wikipedia, even if it starts as a short stub. The stubs generated by a bot in Polish Wikipedia are being constantly expanded (not to mention it led to cleaning up the whole mess in our old village articles), although we only have the 42k sołectwos, not all 60k villages. An example of a good gmina article can be :pl:Gmina Boronów. Polish and English Wikipedia will certainly eventually have articles about all Polish villages - it's only a matter of time. I doubt anyone would succesfully AfD a village article, anyway. Ausir 19:00, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Heh, last days at pl-wiki were described couple of villages in... Czech Republic (:pl:Bocanovice, :pl:Chotěbuz, :pl:Mosty u Jablunkova, :pl:Nýdek, :pl:Ropice) :) So why do not describe Polish villages at enwiki? Even if there wouldn't be any bot-generating action, I will try to describe gminas in powiat cieszyński, only waiting for decision about naming standards... D T G 21:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Can't the bot run here? Invite him! :-) Tobias Conradi (Talk) 11:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Is "District" supposed to be a synonym for "County," and "Municipality" —  for "Commune"?  logologist|Talk 15:50, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If I understand the intent correctly, I think "District" might perhaps be better reserved for a term such as "Ziemia."  As for "Municipality," "Commune" has the advantage of requiring a third as many syllables and being equally applicable to non-city entities.  logologist|Talk 17:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd reserve district for dystrykt, that is the historical units of administration introduced by the Nazis. Halibutt 02:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine — use "dystrykt" for the Nazi entities, and let's use the English "district" for Polish entities!  logologist|Talk 04:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

text: So, we'd have Districts (gmina), Distrikts (voivodship-sized in fact) and Dystrykts (used to refer to non-Polish entities). A perfect solution I'd say. So unambiguous... But seriously, it's been discussed ad nauseam and I still fail to see why should we invent our own names when there's a perfectly fitting set of names. Halibutt 06:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

text: It would have to be researched how these expressions are used.  "Gmina miejska" might, for example, be rendered as "city commune"; and "miasto na prawach powiatu," as "county city."  But the best thing would be to determine how the expressions are used functionally, then find the best English functional equivalents.  In some cases, it might not be necessary to translate the entire clumsy expression.  Anatopism 21:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I gather that the term "commune" is used both for cities and for non-city entities, e.g. for rural areas; hence it seems that "commune" ("gmina") cannot be translated into English simply as "city."  Anatopism 22:14, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gmina miejska is urban commune, I think. Ausir 23:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gmina vs. Commune 

message: #Gdarin | talk 09:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Gmina of Choroszcz]] 

message: # Support--SylwiaS | talk 01:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Gmina of Choroszcz|Choroszcz Commune]] 

message: # Support MCiura 09:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Choroszcz [[municipality]] 

message: # This could be better described in the articles on capital towns rather than split between three articles (one on town, one on commune which, in most cases includes little more than the town itself and one on the powiat. Halibutt 00:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked the articles on pl Wiki, and they are short indeed. It might be a good idea to merge them with towns/villages. Still, we need to have one term to call them.--SylwiaS | talk 05:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unlike some countries, where towns and communes are coterminous, the gmina and its seat are very much separate entities. Most Polish Wikipedia articles are short because the initial version was bot-generated. Ausir 22:43, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Indeed gmina and its capital town are distinct entities. However, the basic levels of administration as small as gminas are completely non-notable and unencyclopedic. Note that in 99% of cases the commune consists of the town itself and.. little more than a village or two. Nothing that couldn't be fitted in the article on the capital town. Anyway, I believe the decision to start the voting was a tad premature, as most of the people cast their votes before all of the proposals were added to the list. Halibutt 08:02, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A village or two? An average commune has 24 municipalities or 17 with sołectwo status (2478 communes, about 60,000 towns and villages in Poland, 42,000 sołectwos). Ausir 08:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Does it mean that every single village should have its article in Wikipedia? 60k articles saying that XXX is a village in Poland would add little to wikipedia except for the number of separate articles of sub-stub quality. Halibutt 14:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I believe that every village in the world is by definition notable enough to be in Wikipedia, even if it starts as a short stub. The stubs generated by a bot in Polish Wikipedia are being constantly expanded (not to mention it led to cleaning up the whole mess in our old village articles), although we only have the 42k sołectwos, not all 60k villages. An example of a good gmina article can be :pl:Gmina Boronów. Polish and English Wikipedia will certainly eventually have articles about all Polish villages - it's only a matter of time. I doubt anyone would succesfully AfD a village article, anyway. Ausir 19:00, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Heh, last days at pl-wiki were described couple of villages in... Czech Republic (:pl:Bocanovice, :pl:Chotěbuz, :pl:Mosty u Jablunkova, :pl:Nýdek, :pl:Ropice) :) So why do not describe Polish villages at enwiki? Even if there wouldn't be any bot-generating action, I will try to describe gminas in powiat cieszyński, only waiting for decision about naming standards... D T G 21:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Can't the bot run here? Invite him! :-) Tobias Conradi (Talk) 11:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No article on <nowiki>[[gmina|commune]]s</nowiki> at all 

message: Since voting began above, "Puławy District" and "Choroszcz Municipality" have been added.  What are the Polish originals of these terms, and what do they refer to?  Definitions would be helpful, if we are to vote on them too.  logologist|Talk 15:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is "District" supposed to be a synonym for "County," and "Municipality" —  for "Commune"?  logologist|Talk 15:50, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If I understand the intent correctly, I think "District" might perhaps be better reserved for a term such as "Ziemia."  As for "Municipality," "Commune" has the advantage of requiring a third as many syllables and being equally applicable to non-city entities.  logologist|Talk 17:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd reserve district for dystrykt, that is the historical units of administration introduced by the Nazis. Halibutt 02:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine — use "dystrykt" for the Nazi entities, and let's use the English "district" for Polish entities!  logologist|Talk 04:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

text: So, we'd have Districts (gmina), Distrikts (voivodship-sized in fact) and Dystrykts (used to refer to non-Polish entities). A perfect solution I'd say. So unambiguous... But seriously, it's been discussed ad nauseam and I still fail to see why should we invent our own names when there's a perfectly fitting set of names. Halibutt 06:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Definitions of "District" and "Municipality"?

message: How to translate things like gmina miejska, miasto na prawach powiatu etc. I don't feel it's right to translate them county/commune, even though i support calling normal powiats/gminas "county/commune". Taw 20:32, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It would have to be researched how these expressions are used.  "Gmina miejska" might, for example, be rendered as "city commune"; and "miasto na prawach powiatu," as "county city."  But the best thing would be to determine how the expressions are used functionally, then find the best English functional equivalents.  In some cases, it might not be necessary to translate the entire clumsy expression.  Anatopism 21:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I gather that the term "commune" is used both for cities and for non-city entities, e.g. for rural areas; hence it seems that "commune" ("gmina") cannot be translated into English simply as "city."  Anatopism 22:14, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gmina miejska is urban commune, I think. Ausir 23:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miasto na prawach powiatu, Gmina miejska etc. 

message: Ok, I think we can close the vote in favour of "Puławy County" and "Choroszcz Commune", and start renaming the articles. I find Balcer's point valid, so the terms "powiat" and "gmina" should be mentioned. Maybe simply it should take this form in the lead of the articles:
Puławy County (pl: powiat puławski)... --SylwiaS | talk 17:09, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Concur.  logologist|Talk 15:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Or even Puławy County (pl: powiat puławski, other translations: Powiat of Puławy, Puławy District, Puławy Poviat)...  Ausir 17:40, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote results

message: Here's an external link with analysis of this situation, citing two biggest and most popular Polish-English/English-Polish dictionaries and other sources: 
http://accurapid.com/journal/29poldic.htm
Here's a summary (not all of the terms were given in the article, I also added some from the discussion above):
Polish     	Oxford-PWN         	Kosciuszko Foundation	TEPIS      	poland.gov.pl	Ministry of Interior website	Other
powiat     	powiat/county      	district             	poviat     	powiat       	district/powiat             	 
gmina      	district           	commune              	gmina      	gmina        	gmina                       	municipality
województwo	province           	province             	voivodeship	voivodeship  	voivodship/province         	
wójt       	borough leader     	                	voit       	             	                            	voigt
starosta   	starosta           	                	staroste   	             	district governor           	county foreman
wojewoda   	provincial governor	governor             	voivode    	             	voivod/voivodship governor  	
Based on this, I'd say county and leaving powiat in the Polish are probably just as legitimate. Using district is a pretty bad idea, as it is used as a translation of powiat by KF and as a translation of gmina by Oxford-PWN, not to mention rejon and dystrykt. County is the most popular choice among Polish translators. On the other hand, looks like "poviat" is recommended by Polish Society of Economic, Legal and Court Translators (TEPIS) .   
As for gmina, if we are not to use the ambiguous district recommended by Oxford-PWN, I'd say commune is the best choice, as it is the recommended option for European countries in KF. Commune seems to be the most popular choice among Polish translators, although "gmina" is recommended by TEPIS. 
As for województwo, it's even tougher - two major dictionaries support "province", while the voivodships themselves use different terms on the official websites:
Województwo        	Official website              	poland.gov.pl                           	TEPIS
dolnośląskie       	Lower Silesia Voivodeship     	The Voivodeship of Lower Silesia        	Dolnośląskie Voivodeship
kujawsko-pomorskie 	Kujawsko-Pomorskie Voivodeship	The Voivodeship of Cuiavia and Pomerania	Kujawsko-Pomorskie Voivodeship
lubelskie          	no English website            	The Voivodeship of Lublin               	Lubelskie Voivodeship
lubuskie           	Lubuskie Province             	The Voivodeship of Lubusz               	Lubuskie Voivodeship
łódzkie            	Lodz Voivodship               	The Voivodeship of Łódź                 	Łódzkie Voivodeship
małopolskie        	Małopolska Region             	The Voivodeship of Lesser Poland        	Małopolskie Voivodeship
mazowieckie        	Mazowieckie Voivodeship       	The Voivodeship of Mazovia              	Mazowieckie Voivodeship
opolskie           	Opolskie Voivodeship          	The Voivodeship of Opole                	Opolskie Voivodeship
podkarpackie       	no English website            	The Voivodeship of Sub-Carpathia        	Podkarpackie Voivodeship
podlaskie          	no English website            	The Voivodeship of Podlassia            	Podlaskie Voivodeship
pomorskie          	Pomorskie Voivodeship         	The Voivodeship of Pomerania            	Pomorskie Voivodeship
śląskie            	Śląsk Voivodeship             	The Voivodeship of Silesia              	Śląskie Voivodeship
świętokrzyskie     	Świętokrzyskie Voivodship     	The Voivodeship of Kielce               	Świętokrzyskie Voivodeship
warmińsko-mazurskie	no English website            	The Voivodeship of Varmia and Masuria   	Warmińsko-Mazurskie Voivodeship
wielkopolskie      	Wielkopolska Region           	The Voivodeship of Greater Poland       	Wielkopolskie Voivodeship
zachodniopomorskie 	Zachodniopomorskie Voivodeship	The Voivodeship of Western Pomerania    	Zachodniopomorskie Voivodeship
As you can see, half of the official websites use "voivodeship", the term recommended by TEPIS. Only 2 use "voivodship", the term currently used in Wikipedia. 
Ausir 13:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Really surprising :) For me voivedship sound the same indifferently as voivodship, on the other hand I used to term voivodship here. Will be any voting about województwa? And when will be any sum up of voting about powiaty and gminy? D T G 20:51, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the charts, Ausir. I think we should have a voting about "województwa" soon, but maybe there are people who'd like to say something more about it before the voting starts. I wouldn't like to hear again that it was premature. So please, if someone thinks there is anything more to say about it, do it now, so that we could start the voting soon.--SylwiaS | talk 17:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, I proposed a week on Wikipedia talk:Polish Wikipedians' notice board, but if you or anyone else think that more time is needed I'm fine with it.--SylwiaS | talk 17:31, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We could start the vote on the translation of the word "województwo" now, since the available options are fairly obvious, but it's trickier for names of the individual voivodeships. Whether it's voivodship, voivodeship or province is an entirely different issue than whether it's Voivodeship of Lower Silesia, Lower Silesian Voivodship, Województwo Dolnośląskie or Dolny Śląsk Province. For the latter, I think the first vote should be more general (as in, Polish names or Latin/English names) and after the general vote a more specific one should be held. Ausir 17:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Analysis 

message: Some other terms where we need to choose a translation to be used in Wikipedia.
===powiat ziemski===
====county====  (Any county that is not a "city-county" — see below.)
# Anatopism 15:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What exactly does "ziemski" denote here?  logologist|Talk 08:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ziemski literally means "land" - it denotes that it does not consist only of one city, as powiat grodzki does. Ausir 08:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Types of administrative districts

message: ====county====  (Any county that is not a "city-county" — see below.)
# Anatopism 15:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What exactly does "ziemski" denote here?  logologist|Talk 08:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ziemski literally means "land" - it denotes that it does not consist only of one city, as powiat grodzki does. Ausir 08:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: powiat ziemski

message: Used by the government.
# Ausir 19:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: land county

message: # Sonitus 02:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What exactly does "ziemski" denote here?  logologist|Talk 08:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ziemski literally means "land" - it denotes that it does not consist only of one city, as powiat grodzki does. Ausir 08:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: rural county

message: ====city-county====  (e.g., Warsaw City-County — as in "City and County of San Francisco" and "City and County of Denver").
# Anatopism 15:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: powiat grodzki

message: # Sonitus 02:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: urban county

message: # Support, though I'm in favour of powiat actually. //Halibutt 18:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: municipal county

message: Any other proposals?
====rural commune====
# Ausir 19:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: gmina wiejska

message: # Ausir 19:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: rural commune

message: ====urban commune====
# tsca ✉ 19:44, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: gmina miejska

message: # tsca ✉ 19:44, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: urban commune

message: ====urban-rural commune====
# tsca ✉ 19:44, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: gmina miejsko-wiejska

message: # tsca ✉ 19:44, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: urban-rural commune

message: Here, I believe votes for "wójt", "voit" and "vogt" should be counted together when counted against "commune chief". Same with "starosta", "staroste" and "starost" against "county chief" as it can be assumed that people who vote for one of them would prefer any of the other variants of the same word than a completely different one. Ausir 17:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Names of offices

message: ====commune chief====
# logologist|Talk 08:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: wójt

message: # logologist|Talk 08:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Vogt|commune chief]]

message: # logologist|Talk 06:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[wójt]]

message: # D T G 13:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[voit]]

message: ====county chief (see also: Halibutt's comment)====
# logologist|Talk 08:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: starosta

message: # logologist|Talk 08:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Starosta|county chief]] (see also: [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geography of Poland#County chief?|Halibutt's comment]])

message: # logologist|Talk 06:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: starosta

message: # D T G 13:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: staroste (see also: [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geography of Poland#Staroste|Logologist's comment]])

message: # --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: starost

message: # tsca ✉ 19:45, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: county governor

message: ====wojewoda====
====voivod====
====voivode====
# Ausir 19:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: wojewoda

message: # Ausir 19:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: voivode

message: # logologist|Talk 06:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: voivodeship/province [[governor]]

message: I just created a new template, Subdivision term Polish (based on a similar one for Spanish-speaking countries) and put it in some articles to see what it looks like. Please take a look and say how you like it. Of course, it may be updated according to the agreements reached on this talk page. Kpalion 14:06, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Eee, what is gromada? I have heard it first time... Maybe you can add to historical kasztelania? D T G 22:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: pl:Gromada (podział administracyjny). It's also historical, though. Ausir 07:49, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps all the fancy little hamlet names could be added as well? Sioło, hutor, przysiółek, osada... Halibutt 09:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New template 

message: Who invented that name? I never saw it in use anywhere and it seems like a joke. Reminds me of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest... Halibutt 21:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it's closer to "police chief," "Joint Chiefs of Staff, "Chief Financial Officer," or "Chief Administrative Officer."  logologist|Talk 08:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, but have you ever seen the word "chief" referred to the head of a Polish county or commune? I'd prefer to stick to options recommended by various existing sources. Ausir 08:42, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some sources give bad advice.  logologist|Talk 09:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm still opposed to inventing our own terms. Ausir 09:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, I've never seen "county chief" and "commune chief" in use. Let's stick to the various options already in use rather than invent new ones (WP:NOR). Ausir 22:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  County chief? 

message: "Staroste" looks like something written by an English-speaker who can't spell in any language.  It reflects badly on both the English-speakers and the Poles.  If the Polish word "starosta" is retained, then by all means at least spell it correctly!  logologist|Talk 16:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it is recommended by the Polish Society of Economic, Legal and Court Translators (TEPIS). Ausir 16:40, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You make my point exactly.  logologist|Talk 17:20, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I believe the tepis that they know what are they doing... Have you ever heard the term foreman in meaning starosta? D T G 13:12, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No.  "Foreman" is used in the senses of "one that has charge of a group of workers, as at a factory," or "the chairman and spokesman for a jury."  I have never seen "foreman" applied to the chief officer of a county in any country.  logologist|Talk 18:59, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you seen chief used for that, then? Ausir 22:10, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Staroste

message: The commonest English name for a national second-level administrative unit, corresponding among others to the Polish "województwo," is "province."
The Polish version of this word ("prowincja") was used somewhat differently in the pre-Partition Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, as a term designating each of the Commonwealth's three major constituent parts:  Wielkopolska ("Greater Poland"), Małopolska ("Lesser Poland"), and Lithuania.  Since Poland's resumption of independence at the end of World War I, however, "prowincja" has not been applied to any Polish political entity.  Hence the English word "province" may be used, with no risk of confusion, for Poland's post-World War I województwa (the plural of "województwo").
Discussions of the pre-Partition Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth will apply the word "province" to Wielkopolska, Małopolska and Lithuania, and will use the Polish word "województwo" (preferably, in English-language texts, not the "Polish"-English hybrid word, "voivodship") to designate what today may in English be termed a "province."
During the Partitions period, "province" referred to certain "provinces" governed by the partitioning powers.
There is, in any case, no compelling reason to avoid using the English word "province" to designate Poland's present-day województwa.
A województwo ("province") is governed by a wojewoda, which may be rendered in English as "governor."
:logologist|Talk 06:19, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe term "Province" was used for Little and Greater Poland and Lithuania in the past in the Poland Kingdom. However if the województwo where I live would be named with the usage of term Province... would reflect me horrible association - I will always oppose using term Province with Silesia according to what is now Województwo Śląskie... Regards, D T G 13:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Województwo, wojewoda

message: On this document (PDF ) published by Commission for Standardisation of Geographical Names Outside Poland (official standardization body) there are official translation of names of Polish administrative units. 
Województwo = Voivodship (or province)
powiat = county (land counties and urban counties)
gmina = commune (rural communes, urban-rular communes, urban communes)
See at official map of Poland 
Aotearoa from Poland 21:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gush, have they ever been cooperating ? (TEPIS, CfSoGNOP) ;) And it seems to me quite freak county -> countries and cause of that I'll continue to support tepis voices - seem more professional :) D_T_G (PL) 21:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, they use "counties", Aotearoa made a mistake. Ausir 21:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official English names used in Polish Government 

message: Whatever the outcome of the above votes, if we use Polish terms, let's use Polish grammatical rules for making plurals instead of creating some terrible hybrids (so powiaty, not powiats, gminy, not gminas). Kpalion 13:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagree.' They're not "terrible hybrids". That's what is done with a word when it's borrowed into another language - it's usually inflected like other words in that language. When English words are borrowed into Polish, they also get Polish inflectional affixes. Ausir 15:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It may be true in Polish were awful hybrids like outsourcowanie are acceptable (at least by some), but is not necessarily true for English. Note that many common English words of foreign origin have retained their original plural forms (e.g. cacti, bacteria, plateaux, Inuit). Powiat or gmina are not even common English words borrowed from Polish, they're just Polish words which may be insterted into an English text. Therefore I believe Polish grammatical rules should apply for them. Kpalion 15:45, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Keeping original plurals happens sometimes (mostly with words borrowed from Latin), but it's still rather an exception than a rule. Well, "województwos" certainly looks a bit silly (but we're probably going to use voivod(e)ship), but "po(v/w)iats" and "gminas" don't feel too weird. Taw 13:25, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: May I point out that an accepted English plural of "zloty" is "zlotys", so there is precedent. Sonitus 02:58, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plurals 

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thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team|Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team]] cooperation