Talk:Keppel Gate, Isle of Man

message: Editor  elsewhere indicates a location/naming issue: "(tps) Keppel Gate was immediately to the side of Kate's Cottage - this curve/bend was named as something entirely different, then renamed as KG. I've been sitting on this for a long time...."--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 23:23, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, I'll sort out the magazine - 1966/67, I think, the interviewee giving the information is so notable...that he has two wikipedia articles, one for himself as a rider and the other as a slightly-famous motorcycle manufacturer!--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 20:32, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Keppel Gate was at Kate's Cottage

message: Some coverage that there was a sheep gate, and that it originally needed to be opened and closed, is essential for this article IMHO.  It is documentable that this is what is interesting to others, that it is part of what makes the place historically notable.  So in this edit I quoted a published BBC radio version of the story:
Many other sources are available about that as an anecdote/story.  This one is a well-written good source, though, and I think using the quote provides proper distance for Wikipedia as an author, rather than Wikipedia saying with undocumentable details.  In effect Wikipedia is saying "it is said that..." at some point in time for the mountain track to be used in motor-cycle racing Note it does not even assert this applied for any specific organized race such as the first Isle of Man TT race that used this route.  It is a true statement if only a few times, in informal practice racing, that's the way it worked among a few riders.  
Within 4 hours an editor [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Keppel_Gate%2C_Isle_of_Man&type=revision&diff=666447979&oldid=666428247 
reverted with edit summary "Origin of Name: Sheep Gate. Removing factual incorrect and factitious account. The job of opening the gates was allocated to Mountain Shepherds"].  The way Wikipedia works is we report the consensus of what sources say, and they say this happened.  The assertion by one person, based on personal knowledge without any identified source at all, is not relevant.  What matters is I concede that we, as a collective Wikipedia author, don't want to make assertions that we really do know are false, even if we have several sources asserting the false idea.  But that is not what the removed statement does.  I don't think any reasonable person seriously doubts that there once was a gate (at the current location of the corner or somewhere in the general vicinity) and that it was opened and closed by riders, at least at first.  And I simply don't believe an assertion that "Mountain Shepherds" were available and willing and hired to help any random few riders going through, always, and they were there always and always prevented riders from opening/closing it.  It would require strong sourcing to make a general statement out of that;  it is certainly a false assertion as an always/never statement (which can't be true). 
The Kate's Cottage, Isle of Man article carries this: "Contemporary photographs of the Isle of Man TT races in the 1920s and 1930s show sheep-gates at Kate's Cottage and also at Keppel Gate, with the name Keppel Gate referred to at both the locations.[sourced to Motocourse History of the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy Races 1907-1989 by Nick Harris page 24 and page 100 (1990)(1st Edition) Hazelton Publishing ]" with footnote suggesting the source states (perhaps as a photo caption?): "The Gate is kept open at Keppel Gate during the 1921 Senior TT Race.  This part of the Course is now called Kate's Cottage."
Any comments about what can/should be said?  If there are no reasonable objections based on reliable sources, I expect to pause for a few days then return the original statement above or something like it, as well as adding something from the Harris source to the article.  I welcome refinements, including any alternative wording drawing from the BBC source, a scanned version of which is on-line though access to this part may vary.  Note this also applies for coverage of gate opening and closing by riders at Kate's Cottage, in the Kate's Cottage, Isle of Man article, using a source or two about it happening there, too. --doncram 23:12, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added my input into the lede only, and will inline cite there with the quotation written into the reference, I think. It might change when the mag turns up. There is a bit in it about the 'stealing' of the gate post, in the night from the side of Kate's Cottage. I've also restored the TOC, and resited the image with an enhanced caption.  Lastly, the contribution history and editors are very enlightening!--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 00:42, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

text: . Reads reasonably-well, now.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 19:23, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  encyclopedic reporting on riders opening and closing gates 

message: Again, the situation is clear it is a requirement of Wikipedia to respect the BRD process and to engage in the process fully and not use the edit summary box to by-pass this process. Also, do not make any personal comments in the edit summary box or use made-up ‘pseudo-Wikipedia’ terms.  The burden of proof lies with any editor adding of removing material in any article.
1967 Motor-Cycle Magazine
It is not an issue if the  quotation is 'factual' or not.  The issue of independent notability of any article has to be addressed WP:N and as previously stated the 1967 Motor-Cycle article does not address this issue as it is an Isle of Man TT article / Motor-Cycle citation and is also unreliable and with issues of plagiarism.  However, the Isle of Man Weekly Times newspaper of the 19th June 1920 does address the issue of  independent notability WP:N.  As an editor you are familiar with the issues of independent notability  WP:N as you have engaged in an discussions about these issue at the talk:page of the Windy Corner article and also familiar with the same discussion about historical agricultural land use at the Windy Corner and at Keppel Gate which does not support the claim about arable farm practices in this area as described in the Executive Summary. 
Why a Photo of Keppel Cottage (?)
It is not possible to declare the quotation as factual as the photo is not shown and the burden of 'proof' has not been provided. The article is about Keppel Gate and the issue of independent notability WP:N, WP:V has not been satisfied by an undisclosed unseen photo of the Keppel Cottage.  The Executive Summary of the article is not 'factual' and as I mentioned previously that the citation refers to the building  Kate’s Cottage which in 1920 was named as Keppel Cottage and the article is about Keppel Gate.   The building has recently been sold in 2016 and still retains the official name of the Keppel Cottage.  It is incorrect to state that Keppel Gate was originally situated at the side of Kate’s Cottage as it included also the current corner at Keppel Gate.  Actually, the citation does not support this claim as the undisclosed photo originally published in the Motor-Cycle Magazine 1920 does not show a  gate across the road.  The photo shows a gate by the side of the road in front of the entrance to Keppel Cottage.  Furthermore, the photo shows not a gate  but a stock-post and railings in the centre or the road.  This is partially confirmed by citation that it describes East Mountain Gate as a “very real gate.”  However, the citation is again not entirely 'factual' as the East Mountain Gate was actually not situated “near” to the Mountain Box but was situated close to the current 28th TT milestone mark.  A small “very real gate” may have existed at the 29th TT Milestone mark which is close to the Mountain Box of the stock-post and railings type shown in the photograph. The gates were opened for morning practice by marshals, officials and volunteers and contemporary newspaper sources only mention some minor problems with the first couple of practice sessions with the 1911 Isle of Man TT Races.   
</P>
As discussed in the original BRD and previously that the citation is not factual as the section of road from Keppel Gate cottage to the Windy Corner was rebuilt and redeveloped in 1922-23 and the “left-hander” ceased to exist.  In the edit summary it refers to the addition of the citation in respect to the 'non-notable' corner  which is visible in the background of the photo situated at the “start of the steep descent” near to Keppel Cottage.  This 'non-notable bend' which is now described as the site of the Clark accident in 1920 in the edit summary is situated 150 meters south from the current corner which is shown in the Keppel Gate main article photograph. The recent publication “TT Milestones” actually states that the accident to R.O. Clark occurred in 1921 and not in 1920 and states the accident occurred before the approach to the S-bend at the current Keppel Gate corner.  However, the description is incorrect as the S-bend did not exist in 1920.    
The ‘stolen’ post
The citation is further not factual as it describes “… sneaked-up to  Keppel during the night, uprooted the post…”  It does not refer to ‘Clark Corner’ or the corner is supposed to be now named;- it refers to the “….Keppel….”  and the uprooted the post which refers to a type of stock post and railings in the photograph.  At the time in 1920-25,the  ‘Keppel’ or ‘Kepple’ referred to the area now known as  Keppel Gate as confirmed by the citation.  This term of the ‘Keppel’ or ‘Kepple’ can be used in the article as the citation in the Isle of Man Examiner for 1920 confirms this and can be used for independent notability. WP:N  The citation is not referring to Keppel Gate as it refers to a wooden stock post as the gate at Keppel Gate in the period 1920-23 was of the cast iron centre stock-type with stock gates as found at  Brandywell and the Bungalow that were removed before for racing. These cast iron centre stock post were different to the type of wooden stock post and railings as shown in the photograph.  These cast iron centre stock post and gates had to be removed before racing began and as the RAC Tourist Trophy automobile races were run just a couple of weeks before the  Isle of Man TT races the cast iron centre stock posts as found at Keppel Gate were removed weeks before practice commenced.   
 
Nobles Park, Keppel Park and the Windy Corner.
The ‘post’ that was ‘stolen’ that is referred to may have been situated to a gate closer to the Windy Corner. This is partially confirmed with the restored quotation that Clark crashed at the Windy Corner as mentioned in the Isle of Man Courier newspaper in 1920.  This actually may confirm that Clark may have crashed on the old stone mountain track that was by-passed in 1922-23 which ran parallel for a short distance to the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road near the current 5th Milestone marker or in the vicinity of the Slieau Oyst quarry near the Windy Corner and not at Keppel Gate. Also, in 1920 the term Windy Corner is used  as general area  and R.O. Clark may have  crashed near the stock post and gate, the “third Keppel Gate” which was the boundary of the Nobles Park and Keppel Park (or “Keppel Gate” as a general area term) as described by the Isle of Man Courier newspaper in 1920.
Loss of Race time.
If the restoration of the 1920 Isle of Man quotation is meant to counter the 1920 Isle of Man Weekly Times quotation in the BRD discussion then an analysis of the race records of the 1920 Junior Isle of Man TT Race shows that R.O. Clark did lose time on the last lap and dropped from 2nd place to 4th position on the last lap.  On corrected time in the time-trial format, R.O. Clark lost approximately 25-30 minutes to the winner of the race Cyril Williams including 10 minutes of corrected time lost as Williams stopped at Keppel Gate or Creg-ny-Baa depending on the source with a gear box problem.  This would suggest that R.O. Clark did indeed ride slowly from Ramsey over the mountain at an average speed of about 25 mph on the last lap on a wheel-rim and flat tyre as described by the Isle of Man Weekly Times newspaper.  The last lap by Clark was 17 minutes slower than his fastest lap on lap 1 and if the accident did take place at Keppel Gate and then why did it take Clark more than 30 minutes to ride to the finish when Williams coasted the last 3 miles in 10 minutes with a dead engine (?)  A further consideration is that a full speed racing accident at Keppel Gate in 1920 would have been almost certainly been fatal or resulting in very serious injury which would not the allow the competitor to continue
 
Plagiarism
Despite the citation being described as ‘factual,’ it is curious that the Clark accident, the stolen ‘post’ incident and the issue of the closed gates are all stories that are found in publications that have been written by G.S.Davision.  This would again would suggest that there is direct or indirect  plagiarism in the citation as the person being interviewed is just reciting in an anecdotal fashion what he has read in one or more the Isle of Man TT publications by G.S.Davision.  Also, in respect to plagiarism and what Wikipedia refers to circular references these issues have already been raised in respect to this article and in the Kate's Cottage article and the issue of plagiarism should now be easily understood in respect to evaluation the ‘factual’ citation as an unreliable source which does not provide independent notability. WP:N WP:QUESTION WP:NOTRELIABLE  
Latitude and Longitude coordinates.
Provide the latitude and longitude coordinates of the R.O. Crash on the 1921 Isle of Man Ordnance Survey map and an independent citation for the accident.WP:V WP:PROVEIT 
agljones(talk)19:53, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, I don't understand what the above passage is about.  If you want to achieve real communication, I suggest you narrow down to one point that you wish to express.  Or consult separately with editors who have offered to help you communicate better, such as Oshwah(?) who closed an ANI discussion that you opened some time ago. --doncram 17:21, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: BRD (part 3)

message: Thank you for helping to build Wikipedia. Please help us by improving this article:
 Articles require 
in  
that are  of the subject. 
Significant coverage
We need references that discuss the subject – directly, in detail. And we need several references - not just one. These sources show that the subject is notable.Not just passing mentions - that is, lists of archaic place names, directory listings, maps, house names, road names or any old thing that happens to have the name in it.Packing-out this article with prominently-placed, multiple contradictory personal interpretations of the suggested etymology of an archaic language does not make it notable and is arguably not encyclopaedic:Slieau Ree ,  Slieau Meayl , the ‘Keppel’  (archaic: Kippal Gate) or Keppel Gate, ) "Kippal Gate, big-trunk, stock, post hill, or looked like a tree-stump...", Irish capal, Welsh ceffyl, Spanish,  ("the road to the summit"),  ( "The Champion or Hero's mountain" or "Kappi's mountain")
Reliable sources 
We need sources generally trusted to tell the truth. Major newspapers. Factual, widely-published books. Or other high-quality mainstream publications which are careful about fact-checking and accuracy. Not local-only newspapers with restricted circulation. Primary sources - that is self-published works by local authors, folk heroes and amateur historians aren't enough - we require secondary sources.
Good sources make the text verifiable. 
Rocknrollmancer (talk) 02:07, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Important advice for editors