Talk:Yue Chinese/Archive 3

message: Some Cantonese words in this article have tone diacritics, some numbers, and some aren't marked for tone at all. In this of all articles we should be consistent. Yale would be best. kwami (talk) 08:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've converted the numbers, but haven't added tones for the words that didn't have them. Someone might want to verify I haven't made any mistakes. kwami (talk) 07:40, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  clean up tone marking 

message: In this edit (without a summary) by an anon user (IP address: 71.202.237.184)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cantonese&diff=229697743&oldid=229163370
the previous reference:
Li, Ping. [2006] (2006). The Handbook of East Asian Psycholinguistics. Cambridge University Press. . pg 13.
was replaced by this:
C.-T.J. Huang (2007). Journal of East Asian Linguistics. ISSN: 0925-8558. pg 13. 5 November 2007
There are several problems with this edit.
The actual author is not stated, C.-T.J. Huang is a co-editor of the journal, see http://www.springer.com/linguistics/comparative+linguistics/journal/10831
There is no issue dated 5 November 2007, see http://www.springerlink.com/content/0925-8558
The page number just happens to be exactly the same as the previous source.
The issue date and page number in the edit do not match those of the actual journal, see http://www.springerlink.com/content/t106m383tq70/?p=987ccf9e376d4ad5a1a4ebbef9badeb4&pi=6 
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j7p3v487280m/?p=987ccf9e376d4ad5a1a4ebbef9badeb4&pi=4
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w1364674753h/?p=987ccf9e376d4ad5a1a4ebbef9badeb4&pi=3
I think this is obviously an example of someone adding a fake reference by adding a seemingly plausible but actually non-existent source. I suspect this was added by the same user or associate of the same user who made similar edits previously. I have discussed this before in the talk page of this article when it was named "Cantonese (linguistics)", see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cantonese_(linguistics)/Archive2.
Just for the record, the archived discussion as it is now contains a sentence that I wrote which was then vandalised before being archived: "Therefore I suggest any future addition of references regarding the number of Cantonese speakers as being 110 million, or more than approx 70 million, by one-edit/one-subject-edit account user names, anon users, or user:128.12.77.167 (including sockpuppets: Benjwong, snarfendu, miracleman123 etc), should be regarded as completely suspect and removed on sight." My original sentence did not contain " Benjwong, ". (quoted sentence corrected after Miracleman123's reply)
LDHan (talk) 22:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My apologies, you are correct. I copied and pasted the sentence here and the formatting (crossing out) was not carried over. My original sentence was "Therefore I suggest any future addition of references regarding the number of Cantonese speakers as being 110 million, or more than approx 70 million, by one-edit/one-subject-edit account user names, anon users, or user:128.12.77.167 (including sockpuppets: snarfendu, miracleman123 etc), should be regarded as completely suspect and removed on sight." I have also corrected it in my first comment. LDHan (talk) 00:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source of number of speakers:  Journal of East Asian Linguistics 

message: Why not move the article describing Cantonese language to Cantonese language, and the article describing Cantonese people to Cantonese people? Take a look at English, the English item describes the meaning of the word "English" just like disambiguation page. When referring to the English language people may visit English language item; when referring to the English people we may visit English people item. That's very clear. I suggest that we should move item Cantonese_(disambiguation) to Cantonese, and move the article about language to Cantonese language. Now all these items about Cantonese are very pell-mell. --Anativecantonesespeaker (talk) 08:26, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Because we'll get into an edit war over whether it's a 'language' or a 'dialect'. kwami (talk) 19:11, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

text: I've suggested at Standard Cantonese (which is a misnomer, as there is no standardized form of Cantonese) that this page be restricted to covering Cantonese-Taishanese-Siyi etc. and moved to Yue Chinese, while that page be moved here, since "Cantonese" is frequently used to mean the dialect of Canton and Hongkong, not all of Yue. kwami (talk) 20:39, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

text: The discussion is at talk:Standard Cantonese. kwami (talk) 18:31, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Page move needed: Take a look cat [[English]] item

message: BTW this was originally the talk page to Cantonese (disambiguation).  Kwami somehow made a move without the talk page earlier. Let me ask admins to move the talk page back first. Benjwong (talk) 03:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry about that. For some reason I don't understand, talk pages don't seem to follow article moves in these Chinese languages articles. I'm so used to it being automatic that I often forget to check. kwami (talk) 08:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Actually, Benj, it looks like you fixed it once. I wonder if something else is going on. kwami (talk) 09:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Were you talking about the page history for the discussions archived at Archive2? I've re-archived, so they're associated as they are with Archive1, and we only have the links to worry about. kwami (talk) 08:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Wrong talk page

message: Why was this page just moved to "Yue Chinese"? Was there consensus for this? We try to use the most commonly used English names for things for our page titles, and this is not one of them. Badagnani (talk) 03:35, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It was open for discussion for five days, with notices here, at 'Standard Cantonese', and at 'Requested moves'. Not much was said. (One suggestion was "Yue Cantonese", but that is not a term used in English at all, AFAIK.) As far as "the most commonly used English name", there is no commonly used English name, as Yue is not commonly distinguished from Cantonese. (Similar to the situation with Wu and Shanghainese). "Yue Chinese" is parallel to other primary branches such as Wu Chinese and is the term used by Ethnologue. Yue is also used in semi-academic literature such as Ramsey's The Languages of China. kwami (talk) 06:22, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Five days of discussion is not enough to make proper decision. Page move from "Cantonese (linguistic)" to "Yue Chinese" is imprudent.--Newzebras (talk) 11:39, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Five days is the standard wait period. kwami (talk) 16:51, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

text: No commonly used English name? "Cantonese" IS the most commonly used English name. Perceptibly you are talking nonsense while keeping your eyes open. Shanghainese is not parallel to Cantonese, because the common usage of Cantonese in English is to refer things associated with Guangdong. Cantonese is a concept like Wu, although it may refer to Canton-Hong Kong dialect due to the latter's prestige and being made representative of the whole Cantonese language. Though "Yue" is used by Ethnologue, it is NOT a proper name. It has different meanings. It may refer to Cantonese people. Besides, the English word "Cantonese" has been being used for hundreds of years. It is familiar to normal English speakers, while "Yue" is just a Mandarin pinyin romanization used only by a few people. Why we abandon the commonly used English name "Cantonese" and replace it with awkward-and-unfamiliar Mandarin pinyin romanization? --Newzebras (talk) 11:39, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We did abandon the commonly used English name for "Canton" for "Guangzhou" back in the 1940s. Change are okay if they do it slowly an encyclopaedia is not to misguide people, the truth is both Cantonese and Yue are correct but the only problem is the Standard Cantonese/Guangzhou dialect we need a better name represent it. Darknshadow (talk) 15:07, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Canton is still used commonly, together with "Guangdong" and "Guangzhou", as an alias. "Canton" is not the name for "Guangzhou", but also the name for "Guangdong".--Newzebras (talk) 08:09, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

text: Because the primary meaning of "Cantonese" in English is Guangzhou dialect, not the Yue language. kwami (talk) 16:51, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope. Common usage of "Cantonese" in English is to refer things associated with "Guangdong (Canton) province" (including Guangzhou (Canton) city). Actually Cantonese language is called "廣東話(Guangdong speech)" or "粵語(Yue or Cantonese language)" or "白話(plain speech)". All these terms equal to socalled "Yue language". Guangzhou dialect is the social standard and representative dialect of the whole Cantonese language. It is only a smaller subset of Cantonese. But because of it's prestige and representative, people in Hong Kong and Macau directly call it Cantonese, using the bigger set name. Now we have moved Guangzhou dialect to the proper place per the concert we achieved, it does not confuse with Cantonese language any more. And, "Yue Chinese" IS a terrible name with different meanings and unfamiliar to normal English speakers. Cantonese (language topic) or Cantonese (language) or Cantonese (language/dialects) are the best proposals. --Newzebras (talk) 08:09, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I preferred the earlier version of "dialect" for all the big 8 languages mandarin, wu, cantonese etc.  But there is alot of dislikes for the word "language" and "dialect".  Benjwong (talk) 05:04, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Dialect is also linguistic phenomenon. In other words, language topic includes dialect topics. So language should be better. For language/dialect debate, refer to it in the content, that is OK. --Newzebras (talk) 13:26, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terrible, terrible page move 

message: *我係廣東話用戶，我嘅母語就係廣東話，我用返廣東話發言。既然而家係討論廣東話，我希望你哋係用「尊重廣東話」嘅態度。講廣東話嘅人，會叫呢種語言做「廣東話」、「廣府話」、「廣州話」或者「粵語」。「廣東、廣府、廣州、粵」都係指地方，可以對應「Canton」，「話、語」都係語言，對應「-ese」，怕有歧義可以加個「language」。任何一個講廣東話嘅人，都只會知道廣東話嘅英文係「Cantonese」。
*至於呢個「Yue Chinese」，對廣東話母語嘅人嚟講，係根本由頭到尾都冇聽過冇講過嘅詞彙。你要喺某啲圈子咁用，可以，但絕對唔尊重講廣東話嘅人、唔尊重廣東話。首先，Chinese係「中文」，但係廣東話作為一種語言，一種language，我哋從來唔會有人講「廣東中文」、「粵中文」呢啲咁嘅詞語，呢啲係夾硬砌出嚟嘅，現實上唔存在嘅詞彙。其次，就算攞個「粵」字，佢嘅讀音係「Jyut」，而唔係「Yue」。你可以叫「Jyut language」，頂晒籠畀你叫「Jyut Chinese」，都冇可能叫「Yue Chinese」。「Yue」只係用普通話角度去強姦廣東話嘅結果。你要做電腦coding，一早編左zh-yue代表粵語，我人微言輕，吹你唔漲。但係一個面向世界嘅「自由百科」，堅持要咁樣去強姦廣東話，哦，你哋示範咗乜嘢叫「自由」囉。
*註：上述我批評緊嘅「你哋」，只係包括堅持要強姦廣東話嘅「西」人。
*Strongly Oppose  to "Yue Chinese"!!!!!
--219.79.27.223 (talk) 17:09, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This user is saying "Yue Chinese" does not really exist because the term basically translates to 「粵中文」.  There is no such thing. 啱 Agreed! Benjwong (talk) 00:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But that's completely irrelevant. We should not translate literally from Chinese, because the result will generally be bad English. kwami (talk) 00:42, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that user is acknowledging the fact that "Yue Chinese" is some wiki-created term that doesn't really exist. And if exist, it is coming from a very putonghua/mandarin angle.  If it upsets that many people, I would hesistate to continue with any usage of "Yue". Benjwong (talk) 01:00, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

text: If kwami said that "We should not translate literally from Chinese", then please don't "translate literally from Mandarin" either. You do not know how to respect: 1. other's language; 2. the convenience of users.--Fongyun (talk) 02:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 廣東話用戶留言

message: NZ, you say that 白話 is a synonym for Yue. However, at Guangzhou dialect we say that it's a synonym for Guangzhouhua. Which is correct? kwami (talk) 19:42, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "白話" (pinyin: Baihua, Jyutping: Baak Waa) is a synonym for the whole Cantonese language (or Yueyu), it is certain. People of Guangdong and Guangxi usually call all kinds of Cantonese dialects "白話", including Taishanese. Sometimes some mainstream Cantonese (Guangzhou-Hong Kong dialect of Cantonese) speakers demean some locally accented Cantonese dialects as "土白话". Here "土" means "vulgar" or "not standard". Guangzhou dialect is a kind of Baihua (Cantonese language), but it is the prestige dialect of Baihua, and has been being accepted as social standard of all kinds of Baihua dialects. For convenience reason, some people directly call it Baihua, as people of Hong Kong usually directly call it Guangdonghua or Cantonese, which is also the name of bigger language set including all kinds of Cantonese dialects. Any kind of Cantonese (Yue) dialects can bee called Baihua or Yueyu. This phenomenon also exists in the English language. London English is usually directly called English, using the bigger language set name of English language, although the English language includes many other accents and dialects. This is similar to the situation of Cantonese (or being called Baihua, or being called Yueyu, or being called Guangdonghua).--Newzebras (talk) 08:33, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, thanks. That was probably left over from when the two articles were not very well differentiated. kwami (talk) 08:59, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

text: You're right, of course. (hit self in head) I didn't even catch that. kwami (talk) 08:01, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baihua 

message: I've made a suggestion and started a poll to see what your opinions are for moving both of the articles back to their long-standing names before we engage in further discussions to provide possibly better names.  Both of the original names had stood for a long time without much of any dispute.  As soon as the page moves were made, long discussions sprung up.  So obviously a longer time to seek concensus was necessary before getting rid of their original names.  Please see the Talk page at other the article for the poll - .  Thanks.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:43, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Everyone please vote. Benjwong (talk) 00:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion and Poll