Talk:Kurdistan Workers' Party/Archive 2

message: The page in question sites sources which are cited on this page.
Sources are of public domain and the copy right is not aplicable or falls under fair use just like the remote page. The remote page got its information primarily from a serries of remote pages. I modified several sentences to imrove grammer. I already wrote an article saying identical stuff which was declared POV. I am providing sources and now its declared a copy vio. --Cool Cat My Talk 04:51, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The copyvio notice was put up because some of the text was directly copied word for word. Funnily enough though, you left out all of the stuff on the page that was anti-Turkish government. We've discussed this. I (along with other people) have foolishly continued editting the article, I'm sorry. I've just moved all the new changes to Kurdistan Workers Party/Temp, we should work on this until the copyvio is completely resolved at which point the notice should be removed and the Temp page moved to the original page. - FrancisTyers 11:33, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The data is PD, I picked up information in my opinion is Notable. If you can argue information I did not paste is notable then they of course can be part of the article. "Assume Good Failth" is among good wiki methodology. --Cool Cat My Talk 02:57, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

text: So teach me how to write an article, if I reword things thats POV, if I find PD information and copy paste thats Copy vio. for gods sake how are we supposed to write articles?  --Cool Cat My Talk 03:14, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Ok - FrancisTyers 16:57, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Copy vio is not the case

message: francis tyers, first kurdish media is a recognized independant organization not affiliated with the pkk, second if you had actually clicked on the links I provided, you would have seen they post the link of sources, in the case of the tortured teenage girls : AI link.
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news/press/16060.shtml
:Cool, much better to give the original than a reprint. This would make a good addition to the article. - FrancisTyers 06:30, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thankyou, I realise kurdishmedia is not affiliated with the PKK, but still, if I was to say post a source from fox news, an organisation not affiliated with the USA government I'd probably get laughed down. Everyone knows fox news is hilariously biased towards the USA government. Get it? Just because an organisation is 'independant' doesn't mean they are not biased. You'll note I laughed down the URLs from the "ATAA" (check them out some time). Also I DID COMPLAIN WHEN PEOPLE GAVE TURKISH SOURCES OR DID YOU NOT READ MY CONTRIBUTIONS?.  - FrancisTyers 06:30, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: No I don't. Do you? I don't claim that a minority of Kurds support the PKK. All the Kurds I've met (under 10) have supported the PKK.  - FrancisTyers 06:30, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: It was actually "kurd" not "kurds" in quotation marks. This is to specify a string in a URL. I have no problem with the name Kurd. I suggest you look at my edits and feel free to contribute to my village guards article. - FrancisTyers 06:30, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I made no such claim, if you find it tell me because that is ridiculous. I agree I'm POV, I'm _really_ POV in favour of Kurdish rights. If you read my posts you'd see that.  - FrancisTyers 06:30, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Every organisation is biased. You are biased, I am biased (pro Kurdish independence). The Turkish state and news are biased. The USA government is biased. The Israelis are biased. AI and HRW _are_ biased pro-human-rights which is why I prefer to use them. They have a go at both the PKK _and_ the Turkish government/military. - FrancisTyers 06:30, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Dude, they gave Jimmy Carter a peace prize.  - FrancisTyers 06:30, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree! You'll see that on the village guards article, the word guerilla is used along with insurgent and terrorist. Some PKK members are terrorists, that is without dispute, but a lot aren't. Please make changes. I also suggest you get a Wikipedia account :) - FrancisTyers 06:30, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Good report, please feel free to use it to improve the article. - FrancisTyers 06:30, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Don't worry that much about spelling and grammar, this can be fixed afterwards. Yeah, I know its not called KADEK any more, I tried to change it back to PKK, but coolcat reverted me. - FrancisTyers 08:13, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree. HRW and AI do acknowledge that the PKK commits terrorist acts, but i'm not sure if they label them as a terrorist organisation. However, they couldn't be described as pro-PKK. There are articles for Kurdish people and Kurdistan and Kurdish language - FrancisTyers 08:13, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Ok cool - FrancisTyers 12:42, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm not comfortable with those URLs either (the ones with Turk in the name) and I've expressed this before, I don't want to remove them as Coolcat will just revert. Personally I think its much better to try and use more "neutral" sources to write the article. I will be content for the moment with any bias being clearly labelled, so if it comes from the ATAA then it is labelled as ATAA, if it comes from Kurdmedia, it is labelled as Kurdmedia. - FrancisTyers 12:42, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The PKK article is based on NON-Turkish sources. Websites in question have profiles on many other organisations. I have no problem classifying PKK as Terrorist personaly, Wikipedia NPOV suggest otherwise and article does not refer to PKK as "terrorist". It just gives information regarding PKK based on external sources. --Cool Cat My Talk 03:31, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV (again) 

message: *Firstly organisations drug ties are established in Non-Turkish sources such as US Intelligence agencies. --Cool Cat My Talk 02:46, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: What is pov and what isnt

message: I think the article is acceptable in its form of now. if coolcat doesn't revert the last edit, it is okay for me.
by the way coolcat, kurds tried from 1970 to 1980 to form peaceful political movements. its leaders and supporters were systematically murdered, and after the 1980 coup any civilian kurd was randomly murdered and tortured by the military as they wish. pkk always fought by the rules of war, targetting exclusively military and police. turkish government on the other hand killed many many civilians, and torture ( which pkk never did ) was common for turkish government.
it's not common place in conflict, pkk never did such atrocities. and what was underlined in the article is DESPITE THE EVIDENCE of these atrocities, only ONE MONTH ago turkey declared the policemen innocent - while the two TEENAGE GIRLS did several years in prison based on FALSE statements taken from them UNDER HORRIFIC TORTURE as said by amnesty international.
if you don't revert the article, I think it is acceptable as of now. tell me what you think.
please be constructive and don't revert without talking, or I'll revert back anyways.
- Kassem 10:32, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current Article 

message: For the whole "Resource Gathering" section, you only give one source. That source is "Section based on material published by the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs.". Considering the nature of the allegations I think that you should either find the names of the official Turkish government reports or remove the insubstantiated allegations. I know you just copied it off the ict.org.il site, but you should make an effort to find the correct sources. "material published" does not a citation make. I have left it in for now in the interests of not starting a revert war. Note however that you should deal with this. - FrancisTyers 16:57, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry, I am forced to rely on Turkish goverment for some information. I do not have any other sources regarding that spesific section. The US goverment verifies most of the claims on various different pages.. I can provide LOTS of sources, but the sources secction is begginging to be clutered. I do not appriricate your recategorisisng of the "sources" page. I find "PKK now" to be inevitably POV. Its pov either way. Turkish side will claim no change is present PKK side will clame conterarry. I am sick of discussing same THING over and over and over again. --Cool Cat My Talk 22:33, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding POV of "PKK now", I agree, it is POV. To get NPOV, we represent both sides. Yeah, discussing the same thing over and over again gets kind of dull doesn't it ;) Solution is to fix the problems, not just ignore them. I'm currently pondering what to do with the source issue. - FrancisTyers 09:35, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah I have noi problem working on it. Its giving me a headache though. I really think the article must be restricted to PKK. --Cool Cat My Talk 13:53, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources (again) 

message: What is T.C., if you are going to use abbreviations, please mention it. A lot of recent edits to this article are badly translated, most probably from the Turkish wikipedia page. I see the timeline is from there aswell. - FrancisTyers 11:57, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: TC stands for the Republic of Turkey. I am less than pleased to see almost all my contribution to be removed. I currently will not be editing this article as it isnt worth my time. Once my vacation is over I'll rewrite it for the third time. I will be collecting more material from offline sources as well. --Cool Cat My Talk 15:47, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  T.C. 

message: Hi, I came across this article and noticed a series of grammatical and format (lists instead of paragraphs) problems.  I decided to start fixing them, stupidly forgetting to check the talk page first.  I'm going to proceed with the edits, striving to maintain current POV/NPOV in the article.  If anyone objects to my changes, please contact me here or on my talk page.  I should also note that I only have a passing familiarity with the subject, so please believe me when I say that any errors are made through ignorance rather than malice. --Scimitar 17:55, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem man, but don't limit yourself to grammatical fixes. Please if you see any factual errors, report them here or in the article. This article badly needs spelling and grammar fixes, it would be nice if editors checked them beforehand, but obviously some can't be bothered. Be bold. Quick note, we're using English English not American English conventions :) - FrancisTyers 18:03, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's good, I'm Canadian anyway. I'm going to leave this diff  detailing my initial edits up for a little while to see if there's any negative reaction; if not I'll look at fixing similar problems in other areas, and possibly expanding to factual ones as well. --Scimitar 18:15, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking good man. PS. Organization -> Organisation :) - FrancisTyers 18:50, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar Edits 

message: PKK is a huge organization. To differentiate among people, you have to include as much reference as possible. There are people who have not performed criminal activities, but use PKK to voice their ideas. My personal idea is that no one should let their name be associated with the criminal organizations. However, reality is different. I'm against terrorism. I'm adding any reference that I find involving these activities. I reject any idea that takes names, dates and link from this document to different documents, because of the given reasons. Instead of breaking to different pages, I favor creating making sections, so that people can jump within the document, but not loose the integrity of the story. I believe the names and what happened to the people who signed the initial form of PKKs ideology are important part of showing how PKK evolved. --tommiks 18:38, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why names are important? Why should document be intact. 

message: It is very unjustice to say; "there is no integrity to the current form of this page". I can trace additions to this page from people that share drasticly different point of views. However, there is a decency on both sides that they eliminate insulting remarks but keep the important dates and events on the page. Wikipedia is a place where everyone can freely change things. It is just normal to look like a collection of raw data for a "case" that took 30,000 souls. There is no other organization in the western world that had PKK's effect on any western country (I know one in Africa). The CURRENT FORM of the page reflects the information that is accepted by all the sides.
It is only fair to call this page a working copy. As everyone fixes the small mistakes but not deletes the significant information. Even if they do not accept. 
I belive the REMARKS about language and story is correct, which will be fixed with time. With time story will become more effective. I'm not paid to do this editing. I hope this is true for everyone. This page is edited during the free time we have. That takes time. Be Patient. AND NOT DELETE INFORMATION.
*None of the editors on Wikipedia are paid. Obviously I am not paid. This article is not supposed to be a working copy. This article is always supposed to be readable and coherent. Working copies belong on user pages, not in the article namespace. My comment about integrity was not about the moral quality; rather about structure (ie hull integrity on a ship). It is currently structureless.  I would advise starting a working copy on your user page. If you don't know how to set it up I will be happy to help you. Once your working copy is coherent, then we'll look at either merging or replacing this page. This page, however, should always be readable.--Scimitar parley 20:50, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why the story has no integrity or seems to be a raw data 

message: When I started editting this article, I said I'd strive to keep POV the same. I'm now also going to remove very POV statements (like this ). This article has so much crap it's a little overwhelming, especially at the rate grammatically poor new material gets added. --Scimitar parley 17:25, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV removal 

message: The "anti-government" definition was deleted as it is totally wrong. PKK is not anti-goverment as it has (communist-socialist) ideology. The organization has a very hierarchical structure. Anti-government movement is best represented under libertarian movement in USA. The introductory sentence is changed to correct references to (communist-socialist) and (ethnic-seperationist), in fixing "anti-goverment" referance. This problem orginates from a wrong translation from a Turkish source. The source was a Turkish government document, which implied with "anti-government" word as it is against Turkish government. -unsigned Tommiks
:Firstly I highly encourage you to sign your posts. You can do this by using the 2nd button between the W and --- on top of the edit box. This will add a --~~~~. Alternatively you can type --~~~~.
:Secondly please discuss the matter here rather than editing the article for a while. Another editor (Scimitar) is fixing gramer and other material. Meanwhile you can discuss anything you wish here. --Cool Cat My Talk 19:42, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Also please understand my stading as well. I personaly see PKK as a terrorist organisation. Have been that way for over a decade. I am inclined to think you feel the same. Do understand that we cannot on wikipedia declare PKK directly as a terrorist organisaion due to Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View. We can however write about their activities. The reader will be able to decide. --Cool Cat My Talk 19:42, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Just stay cool while the other editor (Scimitar) completes seperating PKKs history from this article. This is necesary because the article is just too long. This does not mean we are throwing away PKK's history but instead investigating it in greater detail. I think after we remove history the article will provide general information regarding organisations activity throughout its exsistance. --Cool Cat My Talk 19:42, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti goverment?  

message: I've split the history section into History of the Kurdistan Workers Party, and butchered the section down to summary size.  It's far from perfect, but in my mind makes it more manageable.--Scimitar parley 20:25, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: User:Tommiks has suggested on my talk page that I have a pro-PKK bias. He cites my choice in pictures for the article.  Since I believe that the PKK is basically a terrorist entity, I disagree with his assessment, but I would appreciate any comments from people who feel the same.  If you feel I'm overly biased, I'll stop editting the article. --Scimitar parley 21:57, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, personally I find it difficult to make sense of what he wrote on your talk page, I suspect he isn't a native English speaker. What he means by "document integrity" is a mystery to me. I have no problem with the images on the page at the moment. We could probably find a better one of Ocalan though, or remove it (We do have an Ocalan page) I believe that Cool_cat complained last time though. I supposed the problem is with finding high quality, or even good quality free images. The one from the protest was taken by me. I don't mind the content of the image, the quality is what i'm concerned with. If someone has a good quality photo of a PKK member shooting a pregnant mother, pushing over an old lady or interfering with a dog then I'd be happy to include it. Low resolution, poor quality images need not apply. - FrancisTyers 12:53, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias 

message: This is a terrible article. There's an almost fanatical anti-PKK POV, it reads like it's Turkish government propaganda. The language is horrible with mostly broken sentences, generally bad grammar and countless spelling mistakes. The bulk of the article is patent nonsense, with sentences like "It is important to recognize not just what has been destroyed in terms of rail roads, communication centers, etc. but also what could have been achieved if the dustruction was not happaned." leaving me baffled. As the PKK describes itself as a political party, I expected at least a brief mention of their politics, instead there are sections like the post-traumatic stress disorder one (which doesn't actually mention PSTD, but the idea seems to be that Turkish soldiers have been traumatized by fighting the PKK).
This article needs a total rewrite, unfortunately I know next to nothing about the PKK (that's why I looked it up) so I haven't got much to contribute. I've added the attention template for what it's worth. 80.203.115.12 13:00, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have the time read through the talk page and archive, you should be able to find some sources worth looking at for information about the PKK. Please come back if you feel like contributing again :) - FrancisTyers 13:46, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV, grammar, spelling, nonsense 

message: Sorry, but I'm not going to have enough time to do the major overhaul on the "Effects" section, or the other stuff I had planned. I'll still drop by to do some minor editting, but right now I just don't have the ability to do them. I'm really sorry, since this article needs the attention, and I wanted to do it. Apologies, --Scimitar parley 15:00, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apologies 

message: Whoever claims that "PKK" is a Maoist/Stalinist/Marxist-Leninist organisation is using OBSOLETE information.
First of all:
I've pointed out to this several times. PKK changed into KADEK. KADEK changed into KONGRA-GEL. PKK changed into KADEK in April 2002. In August 2003, they issued a clarification statement saying:
(3) A democratic solution further requires organisational and social structures conducive to such an undertaking. This implies that the structure and style of leadership will have to democratise and that the unconstrained, full participation of activists and grass-roots supporters at any level of the struggle be ensured. If a party, organisation or body espousing the cause of democracy wants to go beyond mere lip-service and adopt democracy as a way of life, it has to open up decision-making and implementation processes to as large a variety of people as possible. This entails the realisation that the idea of absolute leadership involved in Leninist party structures with its rigid hierarchy and notion of discipline, the resulting irreplaceability of the individual and, most notably, the claim of an absolute vanguard position vis-à-vis all parts of society, constitute a contradiction with democratic structures. The fact that KADEK has preserved influences of the Leninist party model has prevented it from effecting the very democratisation it is now talking about. The organisation has so far fallen short of implementing democratic thought and discourse in practical life. Under the present conditions where a democratic solution has matured, there is the need for a serious reform in the field of organisational and societal structures in order to prevent a self-consumption of the envisaged processes. While the party should function as a vehicle for political struggle, it should cease to act as the vanguard of democratic organisations and institutions. Each democratic structure should in itself function as a lead and participant actor in the process of social change. The common efforts of parties, democratic organisations and institutions will need to find their expression in a Democratic Social Co-ordination on the basis of equal participation.
It continues:
KADEK shall re-evaluate the effects of Leninist theory of organisation on its party structures, mode of relationships and way of life and subject itself to change on the basis of what is outlined above. It shall revisit its program, statutes and way of operating. It shall also set up a leadership whose component parts are conducive to this end. It shall enrich the fabric of its leadership and its body of members by including the Kurdistan National Congress and a variety of other democratic circles. Thus a far-reaching politico-organisational reform process has been initiated.
*KADEK Leadership statement follwing six-day meeting, August 7, 2003.
That the PKK changed into KADEK was not a mere "name change", please understand this. It was a pure and pure POLICY CHANGE.
The flag that you guys are using as the "PKK" flag, was renounced by the PKK in their 5th party congress in 1995! Read this:
"Another highlight of the meeting was a resolution adopted to
abandon the traditional Cold War symbols of the hammer and
sickle and drop them completely from the PKK's party flag and
amblem which were promptly renewed. The PKK later boasted for
being the first post-Cold War group to take such a "pioneering
step" to drop "the burdens of real socialism." Indeed the movement,
which started off twenty years ago as a Marxist-Leninist Kurdish
group in Turkey, also rejected during the Congress the concept of
Soviet socialism and "other dogmatic policies," emphasizing once
again that real socialism and organizational structure had to keep
up with changes in world history. It denounced Soviet socialism as
"the most primitive and violent era of socialism."''
*PKK 5th Congress Update, Analysis by Ismet Imset, the author of the book called "the PKK"
So you must understand. When you are talking about "Marxism-Leninism", you are not only talking about mere ideology, but also an organisational structure. Many organisation in the world, who are not ideologically Marxist-Leninist, are still having a Marxist-Leninistic party structure. Whenever you hear about a "Politburo", you know that it has a Marxist-Leninistic party hierachy and organisational structure. The "PKK" (I'm writing this in QUOTES as the "PKK" doesn't EXIST anymore) got rid of the classical communist symbology in 1995 and toned down their Marxist-Leninistic ideology. In 2002, they got rid of it totally and on top of it, they also got rid of their Marxist-Leninistic organisational structure.
Also, claiming that the "PKK" has no "social policy" is RIDICILOUS! This is one of the recent SOCIAL POLICIES set up by the "PKK" (you can download it as an PDF-file):
*Abdullah Ocalan: The Third Domain - Reconstructing Liberation
There is a difference between "present" and "past perfect". It is not even clear WHAT you guys are writing about. Is it the past or the present? The "PKK" is not even called the "PKK" anymore. They are not even a PARTY anymore. I mean, how many times do I have to write this? I can give you crucial statements from 1995 and forward. It will clarify things better for you.
I don't OBJECT to a reference that KONGRA-GEL is in the terrorist list of USA/EU/Turkey/Iran/Syria/Iraq, etc. But that doesn't MEAN that KONGRA-GEL is a terrorist organisation. The KONGRA-GEL is STILL not in the UN terrorist list, which means that over 100's of countries have still not branded KONGRA-GEL as an terrorist organisation. Plus, WHY is the KONGRA-GEL in the US and EU terrorist list? I want you to write that "The armed wing of the KONGRA-GEL has issued that they are now in a pure defence position, but as they are not laying down their arms, the USA and the EU considers them to be a terrorist organisation". The ONLY reason for KONGRA-GEL being in the terrorist list today is that they refuses to lay down their arms.
But, I have the feeling that words like "Stalinist", "Maoist", "Khmer-Rouge", etc, are used to basically DISCREDIT the PKK. Is this article an encyclopedic article or an anti-PKK propaganda outlet? If the last one is the case, then I will be forced to organize friends and we will have to consistently and aggressively defend the true historic facts of the PKK, and we will not give up until Wikipedia deals with the obviously POV'ed article. And it looks like the LAST ONE is the case, because the information is skewed and biased in favour of the Turkish government. Please, be fair and be humble. This is in the interest of everyone. Don't turn this into a LOSE-LOSE situation.
--Berxwedan 02:23, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification on "PKK" ideology 

message: Their site was closed by order from German government. DozaMe.org was full of PKK propaganda. This person is definitely not to be considered trustworthy if it comes to neutrality or accuracy of information.
I hope he and his kind are now imprisoned.
- Bozkurt Tonyukuk
:Doesn't look closed to me man. PS. User:Tommiks is representing [the opinions of] an anti-PKK entity, the Turkish State. - FrancisTyers 09:44, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dear Francis Tyers; What about you? A Bulgarian? I'm a living proof Kurds can coexists with other cultures (vice versa) in Anatolia. I have my own mother thong, Turkish on top of it, and a little English. Like a lot of my friends with Kurdish origin. There is no ethnic/cultural hatred on my side, neither them have. Can you say the same thing? So why do you have to put me into this argument. Are you saying I’m a liar? What is the purpose of linking me to Turkish State? If you think my additions are not realities, you are substantially off from common truths. (in the postmodern sense :) ) I guess that is also possible. A simple fact for you; Berxwedan openly defends the arguments of violence and demands immunity for people who perpetuate them. PKK is a criminal organization. There is nothing else to it. Berxwedan is a substance to a crime. There are laws against it. And these laws are older than Turkish State. You have to learn to separate these concepts. It is that simple.--tommiks 21:16, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of whether or not the PKK is a criminal organization, it needs to be described and explained in the best neutral terms.  That is, both supporters and opponents of the party should be given a chance.  --Merovingian (t) (c) 16:15, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  User Berxwedan is representing a Pro-PKK organisation DozaMe