Talk:List of Christian denominations by number of members

message: This whole article would be a lot easier to read were it changed into a table, or series of tables. As it stands, it is very hard to compare figures between groups. Tables can be sorted automatically.
1.126.107.59 (talk) 16:23, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion: Change List into Table(s) 

message: ^^^ Who wrote the above "Catholics Are Not Christians" section etc.? ^^^ I don't even see an "unsigned" indicator. Misty MH (talk) 02:36, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: :I have talked to many Christians & have found that in my personal experience, pretty much only Fundamentalists deny that Catholics are Christians. Catholics believe themselves to be Christians. As to Christians martyring Christians, well, one only has to look at the persecution of Quakers in colonial New England to see the fallacy & absurdity of that argument & of only applying it to Catholics.
:I look askance at any who claim to represent the true religion. See the sections around Matthew 7:22: Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles? Please also see Matthew 7:1: Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
:Theological grounds aside, it is Wikipedia policy that governs here. You are proselytizing a point-of-view. Please see WP:NPOV to understand why that applies here.
:Peaceray (talk) 05:56, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Catholics are clearly Christians. They are the main branch of Christianity. Moreover, I think it is fair to include in this list all those who consider themselves Christians, for instance including Mormons or Jehowah's Witnesses, despite their not considered Christians by other Christians. --Checco (talk) 08:29, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Responses

message: Now while there is nothing wrong in principle with tagging a particular claim here with a caveat, I would ask why it is not used uniformly? The SSPX claim comes from HuffPo - yellow in WP:RS/P. So perhaps there is a basis to cast doubt on it. But 'claim' is a WP:WTW and should be used carefully. Is there a legal reason or allegation to the contrary? Furthermore, if we tag one number as a "claim" then we need to likewise tag all the self-sourced numbers. That is a lot here, most denominations track and report their own membership numbers. So I contend it is not neutral to tag SSPX as "claimed" without balancing the article altogether. Elizium23 (talk) 20:26, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Words to Watch 

message: *Question 1. Should wikilinks be used in section headings in this article? (yes/no)
*Question 2. Should the sections of this article be ordered in "family" order (Protestantism second) or "denomination" order (Eastern Orthodox Church second)? Elizium23 (talk) 17:36, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: *Chronological order makes more sense. Jerod Lycett (talk) 12:02, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: *Unfortunately, this is not "List of Christian denominations by date of foundation", but "List of Christian denominations by number of members". I really do not understand how a list "by number of members" can be ordered differently. --Checco (talk) 09:08, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC

message: Currently, Anglicanism is listed as a its own branch completely. I was wondering how come Finnish Wikipedia called Lutheranism the smallest of the five main Protestant branches when it's clearly quite complicated like it comes across from this article. Well, there they call Anglicanism one of the main branches of Protestantism. And also this Christian denominations by number of members article contradicts itself in this since at the top of the page there's a pie chart where Other Christian is just a small sliver while also claiming Anglicanism to be one of those while having 110 million followers. Yes, these are always complicated things but could this article at least be internally consistent about this? MikkoMMM (talk) 10:04, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not easy to find compromises and, sometimes, the results is inconsistency. However, Anglicanism is a via media between Catholicism and Protestantism, thus it should be listed separately as it is. --Checco (talk) 15:25, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with User:MikkoMMM. Most scholars consider Anabaptists, Anglicans, and Baptists to be a part of the Protestant family, though some of these Christians consider themselves to be not Protestant; if we make an exception for Anglicanism (the only Anglicans who claim they are not Protestant might be some Anglicans of Anglo-Catholic churchmanship), then an exception should be made for Anabaptists and Baptists as well (see Exhibit A and Exhibit B]). Moreover, many of the largest provinces of the Anglican Communion currently listed under the Anglicanism section are united Protestant Churches, for example, the Church of North India, the Church of South India, the Church of Pakistan, the Church of Bangladesh, etc. Thus it is not acceptable to list these under the Anglicanism section only as these denominations simultaneously hold membership in the Anglican Communion, World Communion of Reformed Churches, World Methodist Council, etc. This article's own pie chart groups in Anglicanism with the rest of Protestantism as well and the article body should reflect this. I have therefore adjusted the article in light of these facts. I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 21:25, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Additionally, it was not until the emergence of the Oxford Movement that the Tractarians came to see Anglicanism as a via media between Catholic and Reformed Christianity; Anglicanism, which emerged out of the English Reformation, was originally seen as a via media between two forms of Protestantism—Lutheranism and Calvinism. Additionally, the British monarch who is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, the Mother Church of the Anglican Communion, has sworn to maintain "the true Profession of the Gospel and the Protestant Reformed Religion Established by Law". The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America, according to its Constitution & Canons, is the full name of the ecclesiastical province of the Anglican Communion overseas. These are more things to think about with respect to where we will place the Anglicanism section in the article. Cheers, AnupamTalk 22:12, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

text: As such, the logical conclusion is to list Anglicanism under the Protestantism section rather than as its own separate section. I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 17:16, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: As User:GPinkerton and User:Indyguy have stated, the Anglican Church isn't the only tradition that claims to be catholic; the Lutherans and Methodists also state the same. The website of the Lutheran World Federation and the United Methodist Church both "confess one holy, catholic and apostolic church" (see Exhibit C and Exhibit D). Additionally, you are incorrect when you state that the website of the Church of England does not affirm that it is Protestant; its very website describes six marks: 1) An Ancient Church 2) A Reformed Church 3) A Comprehensive Church 4) An English Church 5) An Established Church 6) A Church Committed to Mission and Unity. Under point number two, the Church of England's website states: "At the Reformation the Western Church became divided between those who continued to accept Papal authority and the various Protestant churches that did not. The Church of England was among the churches that broke with Rome" (see Exhibit E). I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 15:16, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Pleas do not confuse the Nicene creed with Catholicism. Of course, most Christians profess to be part of "one holy, catholic and apostolic church", but they are talking about God's church, not the current churches on Earth. Moreover, what you stated confirms my argument: Anglicanism is a via media and, as such, is not part of Protestantism, let alone Catholicism. --Checco (talk) 17:49, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

text: 
*Support grouping Anglicanism under Protestantism: The elephant in the room is that the Reformation led to the splitting of the Western church into those who submit to the authority of the Pope and those who do not. Anglicans, like all Protestants, do not. Yes, the Anglicans retained much of the Western rite and practice, but so did many Lutherans. Indeed, there are Lutherans who contend that they are not Protestant, but a middle way, so should Lutherans also be separated out? Of course not. Each Protestant church "family" has theological differences with each other and so might well have qualms about being linked too closely to each other by the generic term "Protestant".  Indyguy (talk) 14:41, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

text: Protestant Churches have often merged with one another to create a united Church in areas where Protestantism is a minority religion; one such example is the Church of South India that User:Orientls cited above; the website of that denomination states: "The Church of South India is the result of the union of churches of varying traditions Anglican, Methodist, Congregational, Presbyterian, and Reformed. ... Being the largest Protestant church in India, the CSI celebrates her life with Indian culture and spirituality and she also raises her voice for the voiceless on matters of justice, peace and integrity of creation" (see Exhibit F). If Anglicanism was not Protestant, how could a Protestant Church be an ecclesiastical province of the Anglican Communion? Additionally, if Anglicanism wasn't Protestant, why would it merge with other Protestant Churches such as Methodists, Congregationalists, and Presbyterians? AnupamTalk 15:32, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I make it quite simpler. That is ecumenism. By the way, most of the churches merged into united/uniting churches retain some degree of autonomy, so that they are not exactly churches per se. Even more important, those are just minor exceptions. --Checco (talk) 17:49, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the fact that the Church of England, which is the mother Church of the Anglican Communion, describes itself as Reformed/Protestant on its official website should inform this Wikipedia article. The united Protestant Churches (which unite Methodists, Anglicans, Lutherans and other Protestant denominations) that are official ecclesiastical provinces of the Anglican Communion are not minor exceptions. The Church of North India, the Church of Pakistan, the Church of South India, and the Church of Bangladesh are some of the largest ecclesiastical provinces of the Anglican Communion in terms of membership. Additionally, most ecclesiastical provinces of the Anglican Communion, including the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America and the Anglican Church of Canada, are autonomous so yours is a moot point. AnupamTalk 16:31, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment: I agree with Checco here. Please check the sources for membership in the respective Wikipedia pages for each of the united churches in the Anglican communion. They cumulatively constitute 6 million of the 85 million, or 7% of all Anglicans. Wouldn't you call them a small minority? For the purpose of correcting the Oriental Orthodox figures in this article, I had recently looked for some pertinent sources. Many sources include Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Christians under the single head of Orthodoxy or Orthodox Christianity and elaborately describe Eastern Orthodox churches while dedicating a small paragraph to Oriental Orthodox churches. We do not follow that pattern in this article. If Oriental Orthodoxy can be listed in this article as a completely separate section, Anglicanism can be too.--Longsword9 (talk) 10:06, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

text: If other sources include Anglicanism under Protestantism then Wikipedia should do the same. There isn't any reason why we can't also add a similar footnote for Anglicanism, as well as for Anabaptists and Baptists, some of whom do not consider themselves Protestant, though almost all scholars classify them as such. AnupamTalk 18:11, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Anglicanism

message: Should this article should include Anglicanism under the Protestantism heading or as its own section? AnupamTalk 17:16, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: As such, the logical conclusion is to list Anglicanism under the Protestantism section rather than as its own separate section. I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 17:16, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: As User:GPinkerton and User:Indyguy have stated, the Anglican Church isn't the only tradition that claims to be catholic; the Lutherans and Methodists also state the same. The website of the Lutheran World Federation and the United Methodist Church both "confess one holy, catholic and apostolic church" (see Exhibit C and Exhibit D). Additionally, you are incorrect when you state that the website of the Church of England does not affirm that it is Protestant; its very website describes six marks: 1) An Ancient Church 2) A Reformed Church 3) A Comprehensive Church 4) An English Church 5) An Established Church 6) A Church Committed to Mission and Unity. Under point number two, the Church of England's website states: "At the Reformation the Western Church became divided between those who continued to accept Papal authority and the various Protestant churches that did not. The Church of England was among the churches that broke with Rome" (see Exhibit E). I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 15:16, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Pleas do not confuse the Nicene creed with Catholicism. Of course, most Christians profess to be part of "one holy, catholic and apostolic church", but they are talking about God's church, not the current churches on Earth. Moreover, what you stated confirms my argument: Anglicanism is a via media and, as such, is not part of Protestantism, let alone Catholicism. --Checco (talk) 17:49, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

text: 
*Support grouping Anglicanism under Protestantism: The elephant in the room is that the Reformation led to the splitting of the Western church into those who submit to the authority of the Pope and those who do not. Anglicans, like all Protestants, do not. Yes, the Anglicans retained much of the Western rite and practice, but so did many Lutherans. Indeed, there are Lutherans who contend that they are not Protestant, but a middle way, so should Lutherans also be separated out? Of course not. Each Protestant church "family" has theological differences with each other and so might well have qualms about being linked too closely to each other by the generic term "Protestant".  Indyguy (talk) 14:41, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

text: Protestant Churches have often merged with one another to create a united Church in areas where Protestantism is a minority religion; one such example is the Church of South India that User:Orientls cited above; the website of that denomination states: "The Church of South India is the result of the union of churches of varying traditions Anglican, Methodist, Congregational, Presbyterian, and Reformed. ... Being the largest Protestant church in India, the CSI celebrates her life with Indian culture and spirituality and she also raises her voice for the voiceless on matters of justice, peace and integrity of creation" (see Exhibit F). If Anglicanism was not Protestant, how could a Protestant Church be an ecclesiastical province of the Anglican Communion? Additionally, if Anglicanism wasn't Protestant, why would it merge with other Protestant Churches such as Methodists, Congregationalists, and Presbyterians? AnupamTalk 15:32, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I make it quite simpler. That is ecumenism. By the way, most of the churches merged into united/uniting churches retain some degree of autonomy, so that they are not exactly churches per se. Even more important, those are just minor exceptions. --Checco (talk) 17:49, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the fact that the Church of England, which is the mother Church of the Anglican Communion, describes itself as Reformed/Protestant on its official website should inform this Wikipedia article. The united Protestant Churches (which unite Methodists, Anglicans, Lutherans and other Protestant denominations) that are official ecclesiastical provinces of the Anglican Communion are not minor exceptions. The Church of North India, the Church of Pakistan, the Church of South India, and the Church of Bangladesh are some of the largest ecclesiastical provinces of the Anglican Communion in terms of membership. Additionally, most ecclesiastical provinces of the Anglican Communion, including the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America and the Anglican Church of Canada, are autonomous so yours is a moot point. AnupamTalk 16:31, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment: I agree with Checco here. Please check the sources for membership in the respective Wikipedia pages for each of the united churches in the Anglican communion. They cumulatively constitute 6 million of the 85 million, or 7% of all Anglicans. Wouldn't you call them a small minority? For the purpose of correcting the Oriental Orthodox figures in this article, I had recently looked for some pertinent sources. Many sources include Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Christians under the single head of Orthodoxy or Orthodox Christianity and elaborately describe Eastern Orthodox churches while dedicating a small paragraph to Oriental Orthodox churches. We do not follow that pattern in this article. If Oriental Orthodoxy can be listed in this article as a completely separate section, Anglicanism can be too.--Longsword9 (talk) 10:06, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

text: If other sources include Anglicanism under Protestantism then Wikipedia should do the same. There isn't any reason why we can't also add a similar footnote for Anglicanism, as well as for Anabaptists and Baptists, some of whom do not consider themselves Protestant, though almost all scholars classify them as such. AnupamTalk 18:11, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC about whether this article should include Anglicanism under the Protestantism heading or as its own section 

message: The Oriental Orthodox numbers were grossly inflated and the section had few good references. Hence added reliable ones and corrected numbers. No source gives a number higher than 60 million for Oriental Orthodox. Pew research center estimates 20% out of the 260 million total worldwide Orthodox population. That would be 52 million. Even if we extrapolate the total worldwide orthodox population to 300 million, the total for Oriental orthodox will not exceed 60 million. The World Council of Churches too state 60 million. Yet, rounded total to 62 million adding up the individual denominational figures. 
The numbers for the two largest Oriental Orthodox bodies are as follows.
Ethiopian Orthodox church: Sources estimate between 3 to 3.8 million members. Most frequent estimate is about 3.6 million.
Coptic Orthodox church: Sources cite 6 to 12 million. Most frequent estimate is around 10 million.--Longsword9 (talk) 08:18, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oriental Orthodox membership rounded at 62 million 

message: It is quite a pity that the RFC above resulted in grouping Anglicanism with Protestantism. One more argument against: the Catholic Church sees the the Anglican Church as a schism, not a heresy (like Protestantism), and recognises the apostolic succession of bishops. This clearly means that, also in ecclesiological terms, Anglicans are a via media between Protestantism and Catholicism. And the via media argument is supported also by the leaders of the Church of England and the Anglican Communion. It is really a pity. Hopefully, folks will have second thoughts. --Checco (talk) 12:50, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: You are incorrect. The Catholic Church does not see Anglicanism as a schism, an appellation that is applied to the Eastern Orthodox Churches and Oriental Orthodox Churches; read Wikipedia's own article on Apostolicae curae, which states "Leo XIII declared that the rites expressed an intention to create a priesthood different from the sacrificing priesthood of the Roman Catholic Church and to reduce ordination to a mere ecclesiastical institution, an appointment or blessing, instead of a sacramental conferral of actual grace by the action itself." Roman Catholics do not recognize the validity of the sacraments of Anglicans and other Protestants (see Exhibit A), although they do hold that Orthodox sacraments are valid (see Exhibit B). As User:John K pointed out, the Scandinavian Lutheran Churches, such as the Church of Sweden and Church of Finland, have retained apostolic succession; the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America also ordains its clergy within lines of apostolic succession. This makes the Lutheran Churches no different from Anglicanism, both of which ordain women (the Catholic Church, as well as the Orthodox Church, does not). Nevertheless, with the community-wide RfC about this topic just closing a few days ago, rehashing the same arguments again doesn't seem helpful. Kind regards, AnupamTalk 16:20, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Article is worse-off now: Once again, I tend to agree with Checco. I still do not understand why we have to make this about editors individual perceptions on the catholic and reformed aspects of Anglicanism. Even other denominations' opinions on Anglican claims is not important should not be given undue weight in deciding this. Are all those any way within the scope of this article which is merely a list of Christian denominations in the descending order of membership? This should be decided primarily based on whether or not independent authentic scholarly sources classify Anglicans with Protestants. This was raised in the previous RFC, although not elaborately with sources. The World Christian Database is the most reputed, best researched, scholarly reference work without sectarian bias available on this matter. It is the data source used by almost all pertinent professional research bodies including the Pew Research Center and the Center for Study of Global Christianity. The World Christian Database divides global Christianity into six major traditions: Anglicans, Independents, Marginals, Orthodox, Protestants, and Roman Catholics. CSGC too follows the same 6 bloc classification. Pew Research Center, while placing Anglicans under the wider Protestant banner, does so cautiously with moderation by dividing the Protestant category into 3 separate groups: Historic Protestants, Anglicans and Independents, clearly explaining their distinguishing characteristics. Please note that Pew does not include Anglicans in the Historic Protestant group. The World Religion Project also considers Anglicanism to be a separate branch distinct from Protestants. So does the World Christian Encyclopedia as well as the Atlas of Global Christianity. Be that as it may, it should be acknowledged that there are several other sources that groups Anglicans with Protestants. However if the best available academic sources tend not to, then Wikipedia should also follow suit. For this reason, the previous version of this article listing Anglicanism as a separate branch was better and looked more neutral. It is unfortunate that the previous RFC was closed without considering these important aspects. By the way, does Wikipedia itself serve as a reliable source for Wikipedia, particularly to settle disputes? Asking this because the only source specifically quoted in the previous RFC's settlement is Wikipedia's own article on Via media, while there existed a plethora of other high quality sources that better explained it. I personally find it very unwise, indiscreet and objectionable because in this particular case the Via media article said what it said, only because the user who initiated the previous RFC, edited it as such, immediately after the RFC started. 9 out of 10 sources on 'Via Media' are significantly at variance with Wikipedia's own article on the subject and describe Anglicanism as a middle road between Catholicism and Protestantism; not between Lutheranism and Calvinism. Disappointing decision, as it left the article worse-off than it was originally.--Longsword9 (talk) 03:29, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you are right: far worse. --Checco (talk) 17:06, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Longsword9, I certainly wasn't relying on the Via media article in my close - I mentioned it in passing as a useful illustration of how the argument against inclusion of Anglicanism being a via media between Catholicism and Protestantism had been rebutted. StAnselm (talk) 20:46, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

text: Pew, one of the most authoritative publications, classifies Anglicanism/Episcopalianism as a Mainline Protestant denomination (it is known as one of the seven sisters of historic Protestantism, specifically). So should Wikipedia, which is not here to push Anglo-Catholic POV. --1990'sguy (talk) 11:47, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

text: In Britain there is literally a law that the monarch, who is governor of the Church of England, must be a protestant. john k (talk) 04:45, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anglicanism, again 

message: The membership of 164.1 million of the Russian Orthodox church is taken from the merely reliable WCC page which almost always quotes self reported figures. Please note that this 164.1 million includes the various autonomous churches canonically dependent on the Moscow Patriarchate, the membership of which are already listed separately under "Autonomous" and other subheadings, under Eastern Orthodoxy, in the article. This causes the membership of ROC and consequently the count for autocephalous churches to be inflated by 64.1 million. Most adherents of the ROC are in Russia; this incorrect 164.1 million is larger than the estimated Russian national population of 146.7 million as of 2020. The membership of the Russian Orthodox church as per the most reliable sources varies between 41 to 74 percent of the Russian population and is commonly approximated to 100 million. Please check the sources on religion in articles Russia and Religion in Russia as well as the new ones in this article. Hence reduced the count for ROC from 164 million to 100 million and reducted the total for autocephalous churches by 64 million. 
Also approximated the total number of Eastern Orthodox Christians to 230 million which is in accordance with the most reliable sources. Pew Research Center estimates it at 80% of 260 million which is 208 million Eastern Orthodox in 2017. The World Christian database reports 286 million total Orthodox which leads an approximate 229 million (80%) for Eastern Orthodox. Other sources, including the one previously cited, commonly approximates eastern Orthodox membership at 200 million. Even if we extrapolate the total worldwide Orthodox population to an unrealistic figure of 300 million, the total for Eastern Orthodox will not exceed 240 million (80%). Additionally, the individual figures for the churches listed under Eastern Orthodoxy adds only up to 210 million and so the maximum estimate of 230 million as per the best sources should be accurate. Moreover, unlike Protestantism, there is no ambiguity as to which churches constitutes Eastern Orthodoxy. So a wide range from 225 to 300 million is neither sensible nor needed in this case.
The next point is about the Eastern Orthodox Communion. I must declare that my perceptions on this matter are not experiential, but rather based on the sources I consulted and hence I'm open to correction by other Wikipedians. Considering the present day scenario, it is factually inaccurate to say that all Eastern Orthodox churches are in full communion. How can it be true while the largest of them all the ROC, broke all ties with the jurisdictions of its symbolic head the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and later with parts of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa and the Archbishopric of Athens and All Greece (third largest), due to the Moscow-Constantinople schism (2018)? There are also other issues like some of the churches being not recognized universally. Hence made the necessary modifications and stated that the mainbody of the canonical EO churches largely remain in communion.--Longsword9 (talk) 08:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eastern Orthodox adherents rounded at 230 million 

message: Protestant groups usually accept Messianic Judaism as a form of Protestantism. Doremon764 (talk) 22:48, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Messianic Judaism as a form of Protestantism 

message: Adding more churches to the denomination of Protestant Eastern Christianity. Since the denomination has a list of churches that follow the same ideology they should be taken in consideration for this list. 
List of Churches
* Armenian Evangelical Church
* Assyrian Evangelical Church
* Assyrian Pentecostal Church
* Believers Eastern Church of India
* Eastern Rite Community in Germany and the Czech Republic
* Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Slovenia
* Evangelical Orthodox Church
*Kosovo Protestant Evangelical Church
* Mar Thoma Syrian Church
* P'ent'ay movement of Ethiopia and Eritrea
* Russian Evangelical Church
* Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism
* St. Thomas Evangelical Church of India
* St. Valentine's Fellowship
* Ukrainian Lutheran Church
Doremon764 (talk) 23:39, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protestant Eastern Christianity 

message: It may be time to add atheist-Christianity-numbers to the list. Misty MH (talk) 02:40, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Atheist Christianity 

message: Should it not in fact display Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics in more similar colors and have Protestantism in another?
2604:2000:1480:44BF:13E:3058:154A:DEB3 (talk) 22:50, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Graphic seems to imply through colors that Catholics are one thing and Protestants and Eastern Catholics are something else.  

message: Someone reverted valid changes I had made so I'd like to start a discussion for that. Please voice concerns on the edits if any. If there are errors it would be great to correct otherwise the edits seem to have simply been reverted by accident, as another user had also made the similar revert but then confirmed by returning my edits. Best, Altanner1991 (talk) 06:51, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is purely about taxonomy and numbers. As it is, the page provides a simple list of Christian denominations in descending order of membership, grouped by the respective families/branches. Those subtotals for various Roman Catholic rites, Autocephalous/Autonomous Orthodox Churches etc. which were restored after you removed, are quite meaningful and helpful for an average reader to comprehend this list. As I understand, ecumenism and the associated trans-denominational forums are not quite in-scope. Cross-denominational bodies are not denominations/branches within Christianity. Their inclusion would only blur the scope and cause unnecessary confusion. This article has been quite stable in its present form. The only real help anyone could be of, is with adding reliable sources where it is missing or by replacing self-published sources with well-researched independent ones. That of course, is a work in progress and till it's finished, the introductory alert on self-reported figures is very much necessary. Please seek explicit consensus for any major changes. Best, Longsword9 (talk) 08:41, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It's WP:OR so it's 100% not allowed. Altanner1991 (talk) 11:07, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Valid changes 

message: The World Religion Database, the World Christian Database and the World Christian Encyclopedia are edited by the same people who are also the directors of the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary (see here). They are highly biased, their numbers are totally invented and not based on empirical research and data; they continue to heighten the number of Christians throughout the years in order to keep the same percentage of the world population that Christianity represented in 2010.--37.162.168.211 (talk) 14:05, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because they are connected with Gordon-Conwell doesn't automatically mean they are biased. Do you have a reliable source that supports your contention? Indyguy (talk) 14:36, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: A. Liedhegener & A. Odermatt, Religious Affiliation in Europe - an Empirical Approach. The "Swiss Metadatabase of Religious Affiliation in Europe (SMRE)", Zentrum für Religion, Wirtschaft und Politik (ZRWP), Universität Luzern, doi:10.13140/RG.2.2.33430.55364, page 9: "...the World Christian Database (WCD) or the World Religion Database (WRD) which is a direct offspring of the WCD. ... In itself the latter is not an unproblematic source, because its data, gathered originally from the World Christian Encyclopedia, result mostly from country reports prepared by American missionaries. Therefore, a systematic bias of its data in favor of Christianity is a major, although controversial point of criticism".--37.162.168.211 (talk) 15:02, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  The above source actually contradicts two components of your OP above: (1) that " ... their numbers are totally invented ..." and (2) that they are " ... not based on empirical research and data ...," since the above source states that their data " ... result mostly from country reports prepared by American missionaries."  How can the numbers be "... totally invented and not based on empirical data ..." and " ... result mostly from country reports prepared by American missionaries." at the same time?  Furthermore, the above source does not support your contention that their motivation is "... to keep the same percentage of the world population that Christianity represented in 2010."  Please try again. Johnnie Bob (talk) 15:24, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that the quoted research is about statistics of religions, what they imply by saying that those American missionary sources have a "systematic bias of [their] data in favor of Christianity" is precisely that their numbers are not reliable as they are exaggerated ("...systematic bias of [their] data in favor of...").--37.162.168.211 (talk) 15:40, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The World Christian Encyclopedia/World Christian Database/World Religion Database is the most reliable reference work without sectarian bias, presently available on world religious population. Some of its producers may have some connections to Christian organizations, but their academic qualifications and professional expertise, makes their work credible. For example, its original compiler David B. Barrett, was a Cambridge educated aeronautical engineer, who earned his religion doctorate from the University of Columbia. That's why, leading publishers like Oxford University Press and Edinburgh University Press, took up the publication of WCE. The reason for professional research organizations like Pew Research Center, to accept the WRD/WCD as one of their base sources, is nothing else. Check how many times the WCD/WRD is referred in this 2011 Pew Report on global Christianity and the explanation of its sources in page 92. Of course, a hundred percent accurate estimation of world religion numbers is virtually impossible. So the WRD is not above criticism, but it is still as good as it gets. It is incontestably more trustworthy than Annuario Pontificio, a self-published source used without hesitation, in this article. Anyone may examine the methodology of building the WRD here. It could be seen that a great deal of professional research and application of proper scientific method, was involved in arriving at the figures.--Longsword9 (talk) 07:48, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The Luzern University source cited above and common sense disprove exactly that "the WCE/WCD/WRD is the most reliable reference work without sectarian bias, presently available on world religious population": it is a project made up by Christian missionaries, not by statisticians and demographers, and it has a strong bias in favor of Christianity. David B. Barrett himself is a Christian missionary and an Anglican priest, not a statistician or demographer. WRD's methodology article explicitly states that they don't follow official census data (which are, in any case, available only for a few countries) and that their main source is the WCE. WCE/WCD/WRD's statistics are as unreliable as those of the Joshua Project. The fact that the Pew Research Center drew from WCE/WCD/WRD's data, just adds to the questionability of Pew's own data. The Annuario Pontificio should also be removed from Wikipedia articles about demography of religions.--37.162.146.128 (talk) 14:12, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

text: The Luzern paper is a source published by a highly reliable Swiss university centre for the study of religion and its demographic correlations. Besides, the Wikipedia article "World Christian Encyclopedia" itself reports criticism of the subject, citing a source which states that it "consistently gives a higher estimate for percent Christian in comparison to other cross-national data sets", which is exactly what I noted while examining their data, and that "concern has also been raised about possible bias because the World Christian Encyclopedia was originally developed as a Christian missionary tool".--37.163.130.240 (talk) 18:25, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Once again, it has not been peer reviewed and not published apart from being a working paper. Incidentally, Wikipedia is not considered a reliable source either. Jeppiz (talk) 18:58, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not the source. See below.--37.163.130.240 (talk) 01:20, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

text: The problem is that WCD/WRD data are used not only in this article, but also in other articles, including "Christianity by country", and in other ones via Pew Research Center's studies.--37.163.130.240 (talk) 01:20, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

text: And another question is what source would be better. The SMRE may be better for European statistics, but what about the rest of the world? The WRE may not be as accurate as we would like, but sometimes we have to go with the best available rather than the ideal. Indyguy (talk) 20:03, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: For countries where there are no official state censuses and surveys, ARDA could be a better source than WCD/WRD.--37.163.130.240 (talk) 01:20, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  World Religion Database = World Christian Encyclopedia = Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary 

message: Doremon764 (talk) 12:26, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Christian graphics 

message: Unitarian groups are wrongly mentioned in this section. Unitarians are part of the Radical Reformation with figures like Faustus Socinus and Ferenc David and can hardly be associated with the Restorationist movement of the 19th century. I propose them to be mentioned in a different section after "Quakers" within the "Historical Protestantism" section. - Barumbarumba (talk) 18:43, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  About Non-trinitarian Restorationism 

message: I tweaked the title of this category by adding Presbyterianism. 2603:3020:BE7:A000:6C65:4CEF:E9FC:2233 (talk) 15:16, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed "Presbyterianism" as both "Reformed churches" and "Calvinism" already cover "Presbyterianism". Presbyterianism is a variety of either Reformed churches and Calvinism. If were to add "Presbyterianism", why not adding also "Congregationalism", possibly "Puritanism" and so on? --Checco (talk) 20:44, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reformed Churches - Calvinism/Presbyterianism 

message: The article currently says Calvary Chapel churches currently have 25 million members‽ There's obviously no citation for this. Just doing some quick math on my own, I see they have about 1,800 churches currently: https://calvarycca.org/history/ Most would have around 100–300 members. That would put them at 200,000–550,000 members. Even if every congregation was a megachurch like Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, that wouldn't even be 2 million. Where on earth did this number come from and how do we fix it? I know they're a decent size denomination in the US, but I'm unable to find any statistics on membership. Jumper4677 (talk) 16:47, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Calvary Chapel Members 

message: The first table (the one showing the various denominations splitting over time) clips on top of the "Part of a Series" table. When not logged in it still works fine but looks weird. However, when logged in it makes most of the "Part of a Series" table unusable. Not the biggest issue but annoying and doesn't look good.     VeiledOcean8565 (talk) 20:13, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tables Clipping 

message: Have been not happy with one user over the past four years, who been obsessively odd of defending this Ukrainian Orthodox Church that used to be affiliated with Russian Orthodox Church during a ongoing Christian schism, until couple years ago, when that Ukrainian Orthodox Church cut off ties with Mother Church. Due of how their holy leader favoring invading Ukraine proper, and how this effects on their Churches in unoccupied Ukrainian soil. 
I have been trying to reminding this user @Nepsis2, that Wikipedia is not a version of Eastern (Byzantine) Orthodox-based biased religious blog, this user is seemly following. But clearly a secular Wikipedia website, where be providing non-biased sources from first and secondary accounts.
Now, I just wanted to make sure to be neutral, by moving another partially-recognized Orthodox Church into the right spot, as well put it's ambiguous rival at top OCA, based on how many members it has, not by holy recognition. Chad The Goatman (talk) 20:38, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I brought this up over four years ago on this very page.  "The Orthodox Church of Ukraine belongs under the category 'Non-universally recognized churches' because it is not accepted by most Orthodox churches. It is completely inappropriate to categorize the OCU as if it were a universally accepted Orthodox Church, when most of those churches do not accept it. Also, I suspect the claim that the OCU has 25 million members is inflated. No source is cited for that figure, and it's more than half of Ukraine's population. Nepsis2 (talk) 01:57, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

text: The OCU's lack of acceptance is not a biased statement, it is an objective fact.  You misrepresent that by trying to lump the OCU in with churches that are universally recognized as Orthodox. Nepsis2 (talk) 22:43, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unnecessary favoritism of a subsection in Eastern/Byzantine Orthodox Church