Talk:Alan Berg

message: Berg had a very public life that involved much more than just his assasination.  This article needs to be fleshed out with more detail.  StudierMalMarburg 21:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  

message: Like the entries on David Lane and George Lincoln Rockwell, this was clearly written by somebody who is sympathetic to the white supremacist movement. There's an attempt at non-bias, but the devil is in the details, ie the identification of Berg as a 'Jewish' talk show host, and the mention that Lane is seen by his admirers as a 'hero and prisoner of war'. Hate speech is becoming a real problem on this site.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 170.20.11.116 (talk) 03:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can think of better wording, feel free to change how it currently reads, but both statements in some form seem relevant to the article. The fact that Berg was Jewish was one major reason he was murdered, so it would be odd to leave it out. David Lane did become something of a martyr to white-nationalists as a result of his conviction in relation to the murder, so that also seems worth mentioning.  I do agree with a previous comment that more on his actual life should be in the article. --Delirium 20:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problematic 

message: "During his trial, it was revealed that after he received death threats from The Order, Berg, a proponent of gun control, applied for a handgun permit with Denver Police Chief Ari Zavaras less than a year before his death. Zavaras denied it"
the grammar is a bit extravagant for wiki, is it not?  I will not edit as I do not know the facts --Kvuo 05:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The source given for that allegation is not a news organization, but an article on an advocay site. That article gives Stephen Singular's 1987 book Talked to Death: The Life and Murder of Alan Berg as its source for the information. Singular also advocates a wildly implausible, sensationalist theory regarding the death of JonBenét Ramsey (child pornographers; father complicit in cover-up) here, which goes to show that he is not a reliable source. Moreover, a combined Google search for "alan berg" and "handgun permit" yielded only links to Wikipedia mirrors, discussion boards and advocacy sites. See WP:REDFLAG. Unless someone can provide a reference to some hard evidence (e.g. a handgun permit application form filled in by Berg) or an interview in which the police chief confirms rather than denies that there was an application from Berg, the information should not be in the article. I have removed it. --Bwiki 23:32, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I notice Bwiki's user page describes Bwiki as Danish. Here he uses "deny" in the sense of "to confirm or deny" the report when the original usage was in the sense of "to approve or deny" the application.
* From: Clayton Cramer and David Kopel, "Shall Issue": The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws," Tennessee Law Review 62:3 [Spring, 1995] 679-757, October 17, 1994:
 
""Denver talk-show host Alan Berg was Jewish, passionate, highly provocative, and fond of insulting people with whom he disagreed. When Berg began receiving death threats from white supremacists, he went to a local police department to ask for a handgun carry permit. The police chief attempted to talk him out of applying, and finally rejected his application. Shortly thereafter, Berg was assassinated by members of Aryan Nations. [10] No one will ever know whether, had Berg been armed, he might have frightened off the men who came to murder him; what is known is that without a gun, Alan Berg was speedily killed."" ""Footnote 10. Stephen Singular, Talked to Death (N.Y.: Beech Tree Books, 1987), p. 142. The police department in question was in Englewood, a suburb of Denver."" 
Oliver Stone's movie Talk Radio (1988) is based on Stephen Singular's book Talked to Death (1987). Yes, Oliver Stone is scarcely more a reliable source than Singular, but what Singular wrote is not a matter of theory, it is a matter of fact about the Alan Berg case: Berg was under death threat, was denied a permit to carry for self-defense, and was murdered by the Bob Mathews gang Bruder Schweigen aka Silent Brotherhood aka The Order who were not hampered by the gun laws.Naaman Brown (talk) 18:44, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unconfirmed info, reference to non-reliable source 

message: Who's Ellen Kaplan? She needs explaining. --Cunningham 09:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "After receiving a flap from former Secretary of State Ellen Kaplan, he invited her on the show and berated her" 
from http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0073686/bio ist probably wrong, --Rosenkohl (talk) 23:25, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who she? 

message: One of the main protagonists (When Other Legends Are Forgotten) here has being blocked as a sock puppet so his contribution def facto cancelled.  User:Not 2 Cereus is an SPA account for this RfA.  So let's try and move forward.  If we look at the sources given we get the following quotes:
*Berg, who was Jewish, gained a strong following in the early 1980s through talk radio, where his liberal views mixed with a combative and often-abrasive on-air persona. In the process, he ignited the anger of The Order
*A few years ago a Denver disc jockey named Alan Berg liked to ``bait,``as he called it, the area`s anti-Semites. A Jew himself, he taunted them, provoking them to call and talk things over. The resulting conversations made his talk show a hit.  His purpose, he explained, was to ``smoke out`` the anti-Semitism latent in the area`s conservative population. It became clear he had succeeded too well when, in 1984, he was shot to death in his driveway with a machine gun.
*Although prosecutors produced no evidence that any of the planned assassinations were attempted, they noted that six members of the inner circle have been charged in the machine-gun killing of Denver radio talk-show host Alan Berg, a Jew who frequently taunted anti-Semites on the air.  (NOTE this follows the opening statement "A commando squad of neo-Nazi ``warriors`` had planned to assassinate prominent Jewish figures")
The first two make the point that 'baiting' and 'provocation' were the reasons for the assassination.  They say he was Jewish, but they do not say that was the reason.  The final one says that there was a plan to kill prominent Jews but does not say that Berg was on the list, it just notes that some of those involved in said plan were part of the Berg killing.
So to say that he was killed because he was Jewish is very clearly not supported by the sources.   It is a matter of speculation to ask if he pad not been Jewish and had acted in the same way would he still have been killed?   The group concerned (per the sources) thought that Jews were descended from Satan so we can assume (although that is OR but probably permissible) that it was at least a part of the motivation.
Given that I have attempted a compromise edit this morning ----Snowded TALK 06:35, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an WfC, not an WfA Not 2 Cereus (talk) 16:56, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: A newly created editor who knows the difference on an RfC created by a serial sock puppet, forgive me if a slow march to a conclusion.  That aside any editor can try and move the debate on, particularly in a poorly framed RfC which I have done ----Snowded TALK 05:20, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Way forward

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Do you have reliable sources to deem Alan Berg Jewish?  Berg said that his father was Jewish, but not his mother.  For Jewish orthodoxy, a Jew is basically deemed a Jew because born of a Jewish mother, which Alan Berg was not, according to what Berg said on KOA.
:"Now Berg was Jewish in the same sort of way that I was, meaning not at all. We both had Jewish last names and at least one Jewish grandparent." Michael Mark Cohen: The Secret History of America, https://medium.com/the-secret-history-of-america/all-my-terrorists-are-white-92c964f50bf8.
See also NNDB: Jewish Ancestry, a list of non-Jews with Jewish ancestry.  http://www.nndb.com/lists/481/000045346/
So the question is, was Berg a proselyte to Judaism or not a Jew at all? Berg did identify with Jewish people, as he presented himself on KOA.  (PeacePeace (talk) 21:43, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither NNDB nor Medium are reliable sources per WP:SPS and many discussions at WP:RSN. Opinions about hes Jewishness are irrelevant. Wikipedia only concerns itself with either reliable sources, or with how people identified themselves. Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality may also be helpful in understanding this. WP:EDITORIALIZING language, such as "has been claimed" is unacceptable for multiple reasons. Grayfell (talk) 23:02, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was Alan Berg really Jewish??? 

message: Current article reads, quote:
"The unemployed Berg was courted by both KTOK in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma and Detroit, Michigan."
KTOK is not in Detroit Michigan, nor is it likely the entire city of Detroit was "courting".  Either there's a station name missing or there's no point here. Impossible to say which since no reference is given.
Just after that, same section:
" "He didn't pick on the poor, the frail, the undefended: He chose Roderick Elliot and Frank "Bud" Farell, who wrote The Death of the White Race and Open Letter to the Gentiles, and other people from the white supremacist groups… the groups who openly espoused hatred of blacks, Jews, leftists, homosexuals, Hispanics, other minorities and religious groups".[1]" 
This is a grammatical train wreck apparently copied verbatim from the source with no attempt to rework it into English.  Apparently suggesting Alan Berg picked on Roderick Elliot and Frank "Bud" farell [sic] -- lowercase last name -- and then veering off into tangents about what those two had done, followed by an unrelated non sequitur phrase.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.34.131.212 (talk) 18:38, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor wording - "Radio Career" section