Talk:Che Guevara/Archive 4

message: This section has recently been created, in part because of a comment I made above (though I wasn't suggesting that we should have such a section). At the moment it consists mainly of links to commercial retailers of CG related merchandise, which is not really appropriate for a wikipedia. The rest is covered elsewhere in the article. Thoughts on removing it? Mattley (Chattley) 18:06, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Che in popular culture 

message: Che Guevara has been listed as a good article; it adheres to certain quality standards, and may become a featured article. Please continue improving this article!
If by "good" we mean "biased", and if by "quality standards" we mean "adheres to an angenda", then I have to agree. Haizum 12:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your helpful remarks, which we all find witty, erudite and incisive. Or perhaps not. Mattley (Chattley) 13:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (Chortle) It's funny that such a blatant patron of Thesaurus.com would use the word "erudite." Haizum 17:08, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  You've got to be kidding 

message: Whilst the statement
Guevara had expected assistance and cooperation from the local dissidents. He did not receive it; and Bolivia's Communist Party, oriented towards Moscow rather than Havana, did not aid him.
may be true, it should be noted that some members of the Bolivian Communist Party did join/support him, such as Rodolfo Saldana, Serapio Aquino Tudela, and Antonio Jimenez Tardio. PJB 15:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bolivian Communist Party 

message: How is
Some critics have used his popular image with t-shirts, caps, etc. to demonstrate exaclty how the spirit of Che has been defeated by capitalism through the merchandising of his image. Some of these critics have taken the criticism a step further by making merchandise critical of Che and his modern supporters.
a criticism of Che, his ideas or his policies? I think it should be removed from the section as it is not really a criticism of Guevara, but an example of how capitalism has perverted his image. I mean, its not like Che would have endorsed this, or would have seen it as a failing on his part. PJB 15:28, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, the lines you quote are very badly written and seem out of context with the section. I have removed them as they don't contain any actual criticism of Che Guevera which is obviously the prerequisite for any information belonging in a section titled "Criticism of Che". Canderra 16:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merchandising of his image a criticism of his policies and ideals? No! 

message: Che Guevara's involvement in the Cuban Revolution, especiallly the Psychological profile section reads increasingly like an unencyclopedic attack piece. I can only guess that someone is taking advantage of that having been split out from the main article to write things that would never be tolerated in this more-watched article, and that are basically off-topic for an article about his involvement in the Cuban Revolution. I don't have time to wade into this now, but I urge those who are working on this article to read and watchlist that one as well. - Jmabel | Talk 04:49, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely agree.--Dakota 18:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attention requested 

message: ==Delete==
________________________________________________________________________________
or put it anywhere else
this article is on a revolutionary politician, NOT a PHOTOGRAPHER
if the picture of Che is of importance, please mention the author / photographer of the picture by name and directly at the picture. Please regard the international guidelines in behaviour of pictures and photographers. If you do not so, please leave wikipedia alone, because this tryes to be a seriously platform and scitifically encyclopedia, but no kid's play ground.
:For the record, the above unsigned comment was created and edited by 217.7.165.169 aka User:Photomania between 03:27 and 03:47, 17 February 2006.
: Polaris999 07:34, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  DELETE / MOVE / CORRECT ARTICLE AND / OR SIMPLY BE FAIR 

message: When the Che reached Las Villas Province that area was already occupied by very diverse anti-Batista forces which included Eloy Gutiérrez Menoyo and William Alexander Morgan who are usually deleted from Cuban government photographs .  The Che soon ran into trouble with the other rebels to the point that he was disarmed and sent out of a certain area by rebel comandante Jesús Carreras . 
The Che’s greatest “victory” the assault on the armored train is also reputed bought .  In this “action” only “El Vaquerito is reported killed, losses of the Batista soldiers are apparently zero ; however, it seems that 37 Batista soldier prisoners were executed immediately afterwards , .  Finding himself without the kind of support he had from other rebels and auxiliaries, the numerous unsupported overseas adventures which El Che participated in/ and or planned were all failures. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.240.227.15 (talk • contribs) 
::In the article by Humberto Fontova that you cite above -- giving two separate footnotes for the same article located at different URL's -- I have noticed that the number he actually mentions is 27, not 37.  He writes as follows:
:::"Yet immediately after the Santa Clara bribe and skirmish, Che ordered 27 Batista soldiers executed as 'war criminals.' "
::Polaris999 08:44, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the clarification, El Jigüe.  BTW I do not mean to argue that the "Battle of Santa Clara" was on the scale of, shall we say, the Battle of Kursk ;-) .  By all measures, it seems to have been a minor engagement -- but, since it is generally referred to by the name "Battle of Santa Clara", I think that we need to continue using that terminology unless someone wants to write a separate article on the event explaining why it should be called something else ... Polaris999 20:52, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Battle of Santa Clara

message: I reverted to remove a sentence which in part contained "However this is a load of nonsense."--Dakota ~  ° 01:15, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I know the bit you mean -- someone just added that a few minutes ago, maybe as a joke.  In any case, it definitely needs to go! Polaris999 01:36, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: This article sees much ip action. Is there or was there a move on to semi protect. Just curious--Dakota ~  ° 18:38, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to come in spurts with this article. I hope it stays low. It's on my watchlist.--Dakota ~  ° 23:19, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for watchlisting it, Dakota.  I just had to undo a new kind of vandalistic attack -- this time someone replaced one of the URL's in the References section with a link to a commercial site seeking to exploit Che's image. Polaris999 23:53, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Just reverted again it again.--Dakota ~  ° 21:41, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Not yet as bad as it looks. Keep me informed...this may soon need protection. Lets wait for now.Voice-of-AllT|@|ESP 05:09, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of sentence

message: Please semi-protect against continuing, mostly obscene, vandalism from unregistered users. Polaris999 05:06, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not yet as bad as it looks. Keep me informed...this may soon need protection. Lets wait for now.Voice-of-AllT|@|ESP 05:09, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: {{la|Che Guevara}}

message: From University of Cambridge Faculty of History 
http://www.hist.cam.ac.uk/graduate_students/mphil/students.html
"Mr Sebastian Klaus Gehrig
Churchill
skg29 	Left-Wing Milieu and Civil Society in the Federal Republic of Germany during the 1970s 	The dissertation deals with the question how the discussion inside the left-wing milieu evolved during the 1970s until the year of the "german state crisis" in 1977. This shall be compared with the view of civil society on the milieu and its fear that the left-wingers could support the actions of the "Rote Armee Fraktion" (RAF) and so mabye challenge the strukture of german democracy"
El Jigue 3/1/06
: The relevance of this completely escapes me. Care to explain? - Jmabel | Talk 00:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Use of the term Left-wing Milieu

message: The site you believe brought the system down is from Cuba and has a whole series of images of the explosion of "le Coubre."  Very interesting, you can probably take any of them since the Cuban government does not believe in copyright (si no le conviene).  I just looked it up again and stuck it in here, had done that previously and nothing happened. The site URL, with a V in front of it to deactivate it in case it is really some kind of Trojan is  “[Vhttp://www.fotospl.com/Default.aspx?Class=23&Epig=001~01&PA=18]”
Probably there is a place for an entry on the Le Coubre affair. It has a Morgan, an Evans and a Jones involved in it, so the Welsh Mafia should like that.
The Cuban government has trouble with power supply and by repute they are said to use viruses, Trojan horses etc to harm others. If you recall it was the Cuban government that blocked the exile Iranian satellite broadcast .  El Jigue 3/1/06
:Hello El Jigue a.k.a. user 205.240.227.15 --
:The problem with the reference you tried to add  -- and which I had to remove -- was not anything to do with the URL (website) in question, but rather a result of the way you had formatted it.  Instead of creating a new, completely separate source note () for the link you wanted to insert (i.e. the one to the Cuba-based Prensa Latina photos of La Coubre) as would have been the correct procedure, you "dropped" the new URL into the middle of an existing source note, and, not surprisingly, this caused the source note to "bomb".
:I am inserting below two "takes" of the sentences in question in order that you can see exactly what you did wrong.  The first shows the properly-working source note immediately before you edited it.  The second shows the result of your editing, i.e. how you "dropped" the second URL into the existing source note.
:BTW when I saw what had happened with this reference/link, my first thought was that I would create a separate source note for the URL that you had attempted to add, but then I saw that we already had a link to the photos of La Coubre on the Prensa Latina website in the first sentence of this paragraph (included below) , so that it would have been redundant to add another.
:Revision as of 02:01, 27 February 2006
:Alhutch (Talk | contribs)
:In 1960 Guevara was involved in the La Coubre arms shipment cleanupFotosPL images of La Coubre, accessed 26 February 2005 that went further awry when a second explosion occurred, resulting in well over a hundred dead.Cuban Information Archives, "La Coubre explodes in Havana 1960". Online, acessed 26 February 2006 This is the time when "Korda" took the most famous photograph. 
:================================================================================================
:Revision as of 02:55, 27 February 2006
:205.240.227.15 (Talk | contribs) 
:In 1960 Guevara was involved in the La Coubre arms shipment cleanupFotosPL images of La Coubre, accessed 26 February 2005 that went further awry when a second explosion occurred, resulting in well over a hundred dead.Cuban Information Archives, "La Coubre explodes in Havana 1960". Online, acessed 26 February 2006 This is the time when "Korda" took the most famous photograph
:=================================================================================================
:Polaris999 23:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello El Jigue -- Probably your link would have worked all right if you hadn't accidentally placed it inside a  source note.  BTW I did look at the photos of La Coubre on both Prensa Latina sites and it seemed to me that they were identical except for the fact that those accessible by the 2nd URL had a kind of watermark over them which made them hard to see; that is why I chose to keep the 1st URL rather than replace it with the 2nd one.  But, moving on from all of that, I think that your idea of creating a separate article for the La Coubre explosion is an excellent one and I just did so.  Here it is: La Coubre explosion. I originally set it up without content as I was going to notify you immediately that it was available for you to begin working on, but amazingly enough, even as I was in the process of writing this message to you I received a warning that it was about to be deleted because it was empty!  A little too fast, I would say.  Anyway, I then had to jump over to that page and write a first paragraph in order to keep the article from being deleted, and also a message to the admin who had marked it for deletion.  So, please do write some more in there as quickly as you can, and feel free to remove my first paragraph as I didn't intend it to be permanent.  Incidentally, it was always my understanding that it was Raúl Castro who had ordered the La Coubre to be unloaded on the dock, not Che.  Do you have other information? Polaris999 02:50, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Polaris the allegedly Faulty website is from Cuba

message: A list of topics related to Che Guevara so the "See also" section can be improved;
*Guerilla warfare
*Che Guevara (photo)
*Guevarism
*Che-Lives
*26th of July Movement
*Socialism/Marxism
*Che Guevara's involvement in the Cuban Revolution
*Cuban Missile Crisis
*La Coubre explosion
LordViD 15:58, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Topics related to Che Guevara 

message: In what way is Che Guevara a humanitarian? Probert 12:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Y'know: I generally admire Che, but to say he didn't kill people is clearly just plain wrong. He oversaw the executions of numerous prominent Batististas, and he did so proudly. - Jmabel | Talk 00:58, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some consideration should probably also be given to the fact that he passionately wished that the USSR leadership had launched the nuclear-tipped missiles installed in Cuba against US cities rather than withdrawing them.  He felt so strongly about this that he personally confronted the top Soviet leaders over the matter and chastised them for not having fired the missiles.  When they replied that such an action on their part would have doubtlessly resulted in the death of hundreds of millions of people in the USA, USSR, Eastern and Western Europe, and the virtual obliteration of Cuba and its inhabitants, he retorted that this would have been "a necessary sacrifice".  His reasoning was apparently that if 500 million people in the "oppressor nations" of the North were to die in a nuclear holocaust, this would mean the liberation of the 2,000+ million people (1960 population figures) in the impoverished countries of the South, and the net effect for humanity would therefore be a positive one. In other words, he considered the value of the life of a human being who happened to be residing in a developed country to be less than zero. He also seemed to have no conception whatsoever of how terrible life in a post-nuclear-war world would have been for the survivors, nor any concern for the catastrophic effects a war of mutually-assured destruction would have had on the Earth's ecosystem ... Polaris999 23:41, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Che - a humanitarian? 

message: I just stumbled across a source which suggested that Che offered assistance to FRELIMO in Mozambique in late 1966 or early 1967, assistance which they turned down because they felt that his strategy of a concentrated military campaign against specific localities would ultimately hurt their chances of success, and that they would be better off pursuing a strategy of inciting nation-wide resistance and rebellion. I've added just a small piece of information in the article to reflect this, and cited the source, but this isn't something I've ever heard before, so if anybody knows otherwise, go ahead and revert it. Thanks! The Disco King 01:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Curiously enough, this is something I have heard before, from a very different source, many years ago.  I had always wondered what to make of that report, but your contribution suddenly makes it appear more credible. Polaris999 18:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Che in Mozambique

message: That insert deleted on the photo of the Che with a tank is the reference to the tank it is a Sherman with a 76 mm cannon . As to that tonnage was estimate as 2000 tons, in a 4,800 ton ship .  How much do think a freighter can carry.  You guys don't have any idea  about how heavy weaponry is or how much a cargo ship can carry do you? A light tank can weigh 12 metric tons see above.  A 7,000 ton Liberty ship can carry 9,140 tons cargo. Now I bet you guys do not have the scholarly integrity to change these things back.  I can just hear the old warriors and sailors laughing at you. Matter of fact I think I will bring the matter up in as many old soldier and sailor sites as I can.  Why the heck did you bolix up  the old reference method now it is almost impossible to find the old citation Citation is at . Xe xe El Jigue 3-15-06
:I regret to say that I do not know to what you are referring when you write:
::That insert deleted on the photo of the Che with a tank is the reference to the tank it is a Sherman with a 76 mm cannon .
:I made no such deletion or any other deletion concerning this photo or the tank in it and wasn't aware that any such deletion had been made; therefore, I am unable to comment on it.
:Re the source note and link to the CIA memoranda you mention, they are still there (as note number 9, as I recall).  When this article was peer reviewed, it was strongly recommended that all notes should be put into, and maintained in, the  style and this was done by a group of editors working together.
:Re the tonnage, I will be glad to re-word it to say that the CIA estimated it to be carrying 2000 tons. I have spent several days trying to find a third source re how much tonnage the Alfhem may have been carrying and can only find the two estimates, namely the one by the CIA of "2000 tons" and that by Jon Lee Anderson of "2 tons" -- I therefore thought that the truth was likely to be somewhere in the middle and a compromise figure of 200 tons seemed reasonable, but perhaps it will be better to cite the two disparate estimates and let readers draw their own conclusions.  Polaris999 06:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dumb deletions

message: http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/US/03/25/immigration.rallies.ap/t1.rally.la4.gi.jpg
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.70.32.136 (talk • contribs) 05:23, 26 March 2006
:Thank you for this information -- I have included a link to the photo in the "Legacy" section. Polaris999 23:32, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Che's heritage is as lively as ever - even in L.A. !