Talk:Sunday Silence

message: Here's a compromise text:
*"Sunday Silence was Leading sire in Japan on thirteen occasions, surpassing the previous record of ten titles by Northern Taste. Although the relatively insular nature of Japanese racing at the time meant that Sunday Silence's success was initially restricted to his home territory, his descendants have since gone on in recent years to win major races in Australia, Europe, Hong Kong and Dubai."
What do you think?    That seems okay with me, the only thing in the sentence I would strongly add is this: "a FEW(I only count a few,correct me if I'm wrong) of his descendants(or grandsons or granddaughters, or progeny, I guess there isn't a word strictly for sons and daughters, or grandsons,etc, progeny and offspring mean the same thing?), have since gone in recent years to win major races in Australia, Europe, Hong Kong(did he?) and Dubai. Or you can say it the way it is stated in your reference article(Reference #2,Thor.Times), it says, "although it is difficult to evaluate his record since most of his offspring have competed in the insular world of Japanese racing." Whichever you think is better, that's fine.  Also do you think we need to add to this article that Sunday Silence did not sire a Group/Grade I winner in Europe or the USA? Silent Name,Zenno Rob Roy,Deep Impact,Sundrop,etc all lost in G1's in Eur and the USA. What do you think?Peteski132 (talk) 12:31, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solution 

message: I've tried to improve the presentation by putting his major winners into a table and making a separate list for the "Sire of sires" list. Tigerboy1966  00:02, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table 

message: Sunday Silence's injury prior to the Preakness is an important aspect of his career and will be included in the article.  Were it not for response from several parties coming together with little time and resources, most likely Sunday Silence would not have recovered and thus not entered the race.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikifan111111 (talk • contribs) 15:16, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Bloodhorse rankings are respected throughout the industry: you are going to need a source for that. I always thought that the rankings were a bit silly: they were supposed to be a ranking of the best horses of the century, but managed to ignore the world outside North America. They were then retconned into an American rating to avoid embarrassment. Tigerboy1966  15:07, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accounting for injury prior to Preakness 

message: I think we should remember that this article is about SS, not SS vs EG. Quite a lot of recent additions would be better placed in the EG article. I think that the "excuses" for SS's defeats belong here, those for EG's (including HoY ballot) belong in his article. Tigerboy1966  15:03, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I see your point Peteski. It's hard to find anything about SS which doesn't mention EG and vice-versa. As both articles are easily cross-referenced, I just think we should avoid duplication. I had a similar situation on my hands when I wrote the articles on Persimmon and St. Frusquin: I had to look at the same events from different viewpoints. There is no right answer. Tigerboy1966  15:32, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to point out: in the KD paragraph, EG gets 5 mentions to SS's 3. In the Preakness paragraph it's EG 7, SS 4. The focus seems misplaced.  Tigerboy1966  07:37, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

text: I just edited both the KD & Preakness paragraphs trying to equal out the focus equally on both horses. Let me know any more suggestions you have on this after reading it. Also, I told the user Wikifan11111, that when he or she adds explanations,opinions,injuries,etc  for either horse(in regards to any of the 4 races they ran against 1 another), then counter explanations,opinions,injuries,etc can be added for the other horse. As I said, I did however try to make it as equal as possible in regards to this. I also don't have a problem if anyone requires this to be added to both horses article for balance and equality. Forgot to sign this last post. Peteski132 (talk) 07:59, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Balance 

message: I have rewritten the first paragraph of the lead. I think that the shorter sentences are preferable in conveying the key facts. I just don't like long meandering sentences. Tigerboy1966  19:27, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoops! Tigerboy1966  21:00, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: I've take out the AEI stuff as it's unsourced. What I mean by that is that the sources cited do not support the claims in the text. I think AEI (horse racing), would be a viable article, then we could use the term with a link. Tigerboy1966  11:53, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no such article yet.  Can you link it if it's been created?   And frankly, I agree, I see no proper citation in there anywhere in the earlier edits; the BH source only explained what an AEI is, nothing about any specific horse. I also do not want to see an edit war start here over the question of whether Sunday Silence or Easy Goer was the better horse, and Peteski, I know you are working on and have a POV strongly in favor of the latter, so be aware that I'm watching both articles. Montanabw(talk) 18:54, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The article for creation is at User:Peteski132/Average Earnings Index (Horse Racing). There are a few issues: any article which refers to earnings in dollars only and refers to Nijinsky as "Nijinsky II" looks awfully Americo-centric. How does AEI take account of earnings in other currencies and fluctuating exchange rates? Tigerboy1966  19:06, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Snurge is a classic example of a horse who won prize money in so many currencies that I would like to see anyone to give a full breakdown of his earnings is US$, which would be pretty important in determining the AEI of Ela-Mana-Mou.19:13, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

text: Thanks, I have found it now. Tigerboy1966  05:51, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, Peteski, if you "copy and paste" you are violating one of wikipedia's major rules per WP:COPYVIO.  You are welcome to comment on anything I write; I am welcome to disagree with you.  And actually, sometimes some professionals don't write particularly well, florid sportswriter prose is not necessarily suitable for an encyclopedia, and has it occurred to you that perhaps I happen to "write professionally" (within my field) almost every day of my working life? As for the AEI issue. I think that creating an article on the concept is a good idea, though I suspect that per Tigerboy's example above, it may be difficult to use its numbers where we have horses in different nations - I don't see how one could compare Black Caviar to Zenyatta, for example?   As for Nijinsky, I am going to give Tigerboy gentle noogies for that one, cause the name change was supposed to avoid confusion!   Montanabw(talk) 22:04, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

text: Read WP:COPYVIO. I had to totally rewrite your AEI draft (which I think is, by the way, salvagable) to remove all the problems with copy and paste.  Didn't they teach you in freshman composition about plagiarism? You just don't copy and paste huge chunks of material, even putting quotations around things (which you DID NOT DO)  or including a citation doesn't absolve you of plagiarism. I teach at the college level, if you'd turned in a term paper like this, I'd have given you an F for blatent copying, citations notwithstanding.   If you see what happened when I ran the Easy Goer article through a plagiarism checker here, not only did it (obviously) say it was from wikipedia, but also flagged 13 other articles where there was close paraphrasing. It may be tough to find your own words sometimes, but find them you must.  Montanabw(talk) 23:38, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

text: Everyone has to learn to write and learn to be edited.  You won't be able to graduate from college unless you figure this out anyway. WP:BRD.  WP is a tough place, but it's a crucible that will teach you to write well if you grow up and stop pouting.  Montanabw(talk) 05:19, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

text: Well, don't coy and paste, that is plagiarism and will get you sanctioned on Wikipedia. You must not have graduated in the liberal arts, where researched term papers are standard.  I agree that articles need to be improved, but just use your own words, don't get too upset if you work gets rewritten, and remember that we are writing an encyclopedia, not a sports column, so just the facts, not the flourishes. And really, everyone should learn to write decently.  Montanabw(talk) 23:52, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

text: I meant that everyone should be able to write decently - wherever you go, you never know when it will be useful - and know the basics of citation, research and how not to plagiarize.  I once wrote a newspaper column, for example, also other assorted things.  I have to write now almost every day in my RL job.  Montanabw(talk) 21:49, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

text: I couldn't find SS's AEI in the cited source so I've removed it. We are now left with a somewhat redundant half paragraph on the AEI's of various North American stallions. If you could find AEI's for other important Japanese stallions it might make sense, otherwise you're comparing apples and oranges. Tigerboy1966  20:53, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  AEI 

message: Do verifiable facts need a "consensus?"  Do you dispute the Jockey Club's online pedigree database, equineline.com, as being factual?  Is the Jockey Club's online pedigree database, equineline.com, not a trustworthy, valid source?  If so, please give evidence as such. Thanks.   Peteski132 (talk) 07:48, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: You are missing the point, Peteski.  This article is about Sunday Silence, not Easy Goer.  Putting too much emphasis on the details of every race and why Easy Goer won or lost is WP:UNDUE weight. So I tossed that part for that reason. As for some of the statistics on AEI, you and  need to sort out that bit, and it's clearly been in dispute for a while. Montanabw(talk) 21:37, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

text: I’ll leave be the AEI issue, but some of the other content was very biased and at times snarky.  The defense details for Easy Goer belong in the Easy Goer article per WP:UNDUE.  The rivalry can be discussed, because it was significant, but the tone was not neutral. Your bias is well-known and what may sound neutral to you is not in fact neutral, so I trimmed things a bit and did some rephrasing.  Montanabw(talk) 06:18, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

text: Peteski, you are missing my point.  This article put WP:UNDUE weight on the excuses given by Easy Goer's connections. The Easy Goer article already has much of this content, which is where it belongs, if it belongs anywhere. I fixed the phrasing so it is more balanced. I do not see Tigerboy as someone who gets into discussions like these any more than he must.  The article still doesn't have a lot of the positive assessments about Sunday Silence in it even now (mostly just the Blood-Horse ranking and then his sire record in Japan).  But it's a little better.  I like both horses too, but there was a clear tone that had to be addresses and I addressed it. You will note that I haven't touched your Easy Goer article in years.  It's all yours.  Montanabw(talk) 15:59, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

text: I took American Pharoah to FAC and didn't have that level of detail on other horses in individual races. Your appeal to authority fails. We can discuss restoring some content, but it needs a different tone. Montanabw(talk) 22:56, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Peteski132, please note WP:NPA and WP:AGF. Please refrain from such invective in the future.  Montanabw(talk) 22:51, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: New discussion

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thread_title:  External links modified