Talk:Ray McGovern

message: Someone needs to take a hard look at this. Go to "Should You Trust 'Former CIA Officials'?" one of only two "external" links listed (both pointing to the same site), and you will see that the bio here was copied word-for-word from there. It is also quite clear that Mr. Francisco Gil-White is a crackpot (c'mon, he cites *himself*) and has an axe to grind (against Mr. McGovern).
new poster here:
Having spent time with Ray McGovern at Camp Casey last summer, I can tell readers that he is a hard working, spiritual man of integrity. Find the William Rivers Pitt interview for more insight. I was working along side him for hours without knowing who he was. Told him later "Ray, I liked you even before I knew who you were!" He got a kick out of that. He works with disadvantaged youth through his church in DC, also. He has remarkable memory, and was cut out for intelligence work, which he points out that at its best is "just the facts" not the spin.
- Gil-White does not cite himself at all. The bio for McGovern has been paraphrased from the larger body of information about people like McGovern and Cannistraro, all of which is taken from publicly available sources such as the mainstream media and government websites. The bio is simply an effort to get the most important facts in one place. Feel free to actually check those facts before you throw around names like 'crackpot'. Ryan4 14:41, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And you yourself are free to check this page: http://www.hirhome.com/israel/mprot1.htm#_ftn19 and note that he does, in fact, cite himself. Inoculatedcities 23:52, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable 

message: To explain my cryptic edit summary:
What does "(→Views - Do not need to soapbox by proxy - this is as clear an example of coatracking as i've ever seen.)" mean?
a) Striver has a history of pushing his conspiracy views by propping up articles of people sharing his views. This is not in and of itself bad, but the manner he's approaching it is highly encyclopedic, and he's leaving crappy articles in his wake. Rather than being an article stating X believes Y, it's X saying Z, basically reproducing his schpiel. You can say Ray McGovern believes there's a 9/11 coverup, thinks Bush should be impeached, and thinks there's ulterior motives behind the Iraq war, without having 500 words of McGovern pitching it himself. That's the soapbox by proxy. Instead of presenting his POV, he's pushing the words of people he agrees with under the guise of encyclopedic content.
b) coatracking is a term another editor coined (my deepest apologies for forgetting who), describing the use of a bio to push a POV. The bio is the coatrack, and the POV is the coat. Rather than being simply a description of the person, the entry consists of a short bio and a inordinately long section describing their political views. The attention is drawn away from the individual and to the pontification of that individual's views, like a coat obscures the coatrack.
E.g. The Bush (to name a prominent politician) entry is not a 1 paragraph bio followed by 3 pages of quotes of George Bush's campaign statements. His policies are a small part of his bio, commensurate with his accomplishments, history, and whatnot. Moreover, they are presented not as quotes, but as NPOV prose. By definition, quoting a politican is NPOV; it's their POV!
Regarding Ray McGovern, feel free to expand the section on his views to further devlop his nuances, but do them with original prose, not regurgitated quotes (those should be cited, not copied). I distilled the included quotes down to their essence, you'd probably know his nuances better than I.
--Mmx1 04:38, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotes and Coatracking 

message: Sup. I see you guys are editing at the same time I am. Ryan4 02:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hi guys 

message: My point about the first sentence is that it is paradoxical that he worked for the CIA for 27 years and is great buddies with Bush Sr but has suddenly become an outspoken Bush critic. That's why it makes sense to have everything he says under a heading 'Public Statements', because we don't know what his 'Views' really are. Ryan4 03:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. --Striver 04:01, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Public Statements / Views 

message: Can someone explain the NPOV tag on this article so we can address the issues?--csloat 02:44, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV tag

message: An editor deleted two entries and their citations with a comment derogatory to the Weekly Standard. The Weekly Standard is a highly respected journal of political thought and investigative reporting. Wikipedia does not disallow citations from Weekly Standard and any attempt to delete on that basis is pure POV. RonCram 04:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Weekly Standard is not highly respected. Also, it is openly and clearly neocon, so how is its text gonna make an encyclopedia NPOV? -- ActiveSelective 09:37, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV deletions

message: I've cleaned up the section on the ludicrous and offensive allegations of anti-semitism and added McGovern's comments about his interaction with Woolsey on the matter. It's pretty obvious both Woolsey and Dean are off the deep end on this matter, but whatever. There is the matter of the other TWS quote, which calls McGovern a "wild-eyed leftist." It seems to me more than enough to say TWS called him a "wild-eyed leftist" rather than having a couple sentences that refer to something "above" that isn't quoted. It makes no sense. Unless the "above" are the various claims about what McGovern "believes" (to which I added the fact tag). I'd be in favor of deleting that whole paragraph and perhaps replacing it with documented information about McGovern's published views rather than suggestions about what TWS claims he "believes."--csloat 19:49, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The "wild-eyed leftist" TWS sentence can probably go as well. Honestly, Ray McGovern convicts himself of anti-semitism via his own words better than the TWS could ever do. It's fine to criticize Israel, but there's a point at which reasonable analysis leaves the building and off-the-wall conspiracy theory enters. Merzbow 01:45, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, so you know of a quote from Mr. McGovern where he talks of an international Jewish conspiracy? Or perhaps evidence of Mr. McGovern painting swastikas on a shul, or marching alongside the Klan? Please do feel free to add it to this page; as it is, there is no such quote here. And again I think the implication that criticizing Israeli foreign policy (or criticizing, as McGovern did, the ways in which U.S. foreign policy is influenced by Israeli foreign policy) is horribly offensive. Besides shutting down rational debate on American foreign policy, it also trivializes real anti-semitism.--csloat 02:01, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Criticism of Israeli foreign policy is not anti-semitic, and I never said it is. It's when that criticism crosses the line to implying that Jews (of which half the world's population are Israeli, and overwhelmingly Zionists) are the prime movers or the primary reason for all of the nasty things that have been going on the Middle East lately. This sort of talk ascribing to Jews vast powers to influence world affairs is the same language that has been used for hundreds of years by blatant anti-semites (see Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It's code language, and all well-educated people recognize it as such. If guys like Ray McGovern are really not anti-semitic and don't want to appear as such, they're free to express their concerns in a different way. But they don't, and that gives me pause. Merzbow 06:26, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, if you have evidence of Mr. McGovern making public statements to such effect, that would be interesting. I am well aware of the Protocols, and if you know of McGovern endorsing them, that would certainly be notable here. But I haven't seen evidence of any such arguments coming from him, and his critique of the war in Iraq on the basis that it is part of a desire to advance US/Israeli hegemony in the Middle East is not that sort of conspiracy theory, nor is it really that controversial; in fact, neocons themselves make that argument. So I'm really not sure I understand your claim.--csloat 07:30, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Surely Merzbow's libelous claims about Ray McGovern should give one pause. And the state of Israel does have "vast" powers to influence world affairs -- that's a fact, not anti-semitic in the slightest. And JINSA and AIPAC, through their influence on U. S. foreign policy and the funding of Israel, have significant power to influence world affairs. As a Jew concerned about anti-semitism, I find the sorts of transparent misrepresentations and false equations of folks like Merzbow quite alarming -- treating legitimate references to the influence of Israel and Americans supporting Israel as if it were anti-semitic "code language" serves to legitimate real anti-semitism. And as a member of the Jewish community, I am distressed that so many of my brethren act so badly, here at WP and elsewhere throughout the internet, where these false charges of anti-semitism are flung around for the purpose of demonizing those who have legitimate criticisms of Israel and its supporters. -- Jibal 04:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Antisemitic garbage

message: This article should be renamed to "Ray McGovern" because of the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) policy. See www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2006/010606iranstrike.htm for TV screenshot captioned with Ray.
StraussianNeocon 22:56, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change article name 

message: I have deleted the paragraph attributed to the Boston Globe stating that McGovern was an operations officer at CIA; he was not and never would have been given his views of operations officers as stated to me, and his general attitude. Notwithstanding a possible rotational tour with a combined Center such as the Counter-Terrorist Center where he would have remained an analyst likely assigned to do targetting studies in more direct support of the DO (Directorate of Operations in his time, now the National Clandestine Service). His area of expertise is the Soviet Union and Russia, not the Middle East, not terrorism, not counter terrorism and certainly not operations at CIA. One might also question his lack of politicization as an analyst given his general publicly opinionated activities since retiring; where were his protests hidden during his career?
The Globe just has it wrong. Where it got this information is unknown, but before Wikipedia perpetuates this falsehood and attributes by implication expertise that does not exist, it should either check with McGovern himself (surely his email address is plastered all over some web site or other he supports; he loves publicity) or the Globe for its take on the reliability of their source's access and knowledge of McGovern's assignments. My guess is that they just interpolated something the source may have said, and misunderstood. The Washington Post would be a more reliable source for this sort of detail.
How do I know this? I was a Prep schoolmate of McGovern's and we went to the same college (although at different times); I know him personally; I was myself an operations officer for 31 years, 25 of which overlapped McGovern at CIA. Henrymj 12:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Henry, I do not doubt the accuracy of your statements. However, wikipedia has a policy against "original research." Articles are supposed to reflect only what is published. I would suggest you contact some of your friends in the media and ask them to correct the record. If you don't have anyone you can readily ask, I would suggest you go to a group like Vets For Freedom who do have contacts with the media and ask them to help you set the record straight. RonCram 13:48, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Are you kidding? Do you think the Boston Globe is going to bother to print a retraction at this late date just to ensure Wikipedia's rules can be honored-- which in this case seems to put policy before truth? There are plenty of articles in other papers at other times that do not erroneously assert that McGovern was an operations officer or in the Clandestine Service, sufficient it would seem to simply leave out the Globe's error. Why not use them? Or, as I suggest, just leave it out; even journalists require three sources before publishing a controversial fact. And, you do not publish every other publicly printed bio statement on him. Or, is someone insisting on this specific inclusion to try to add credibility to McGovern's opinions? If you are interested in the truth of his past which in this case is meant to distinguish his rants from the rest of the world's opinionated chatterers, then I suggest you publish only what you can verify is fact about him, not what some sloppy journalist printed and the individual who added the para in Wikipedia interpreted from it. If the entire concept of an edited encyclopia is to have any credibility, it needs to be more circumspect about what purports to be fact. Otherwise, it seems a playground for anyone with an agenda to play loose with reality. Henrymj 16:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Henry; let's just leave out the disputed sentence. It is a short aside in the Globe, not the product of an investigation, and probably the product of a journalist who didn't know the difference between different CIA jobs. There's no need to use the quote to editorialize for or against McGovern; just leave it out and quote other sources.--csloat 19:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it is not the main focus of the article and the Globe will probably never issue a retraction. RonCram 15:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Methinks thou doth protest too much; wikipedia puts policy before claims of truth. Policy is intended to keep this from being "a playground for anyone with an agenda to play loose with reality", which could be you just as soon as it could be someone else. -- Jibal 04:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  McGovern was NEVER an Operations Officer 

message: The nonsense Ron keeps inserting about the RCP does not belong here. The Weakly Standard point is BS -- we have a link to NION already, if people want to learn more about that organization, they can click the link. McGovern was not a member of RCP to my knowledge; the fact that NION was started by people who included RCP members is a strange guilt by association argument that has no place here. Beyond that, to claim NION is not "anti-war" because some of its members may belong to a Maoist group makes no sense. NION opposed the war, did they not?--csloat 19:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: csloat, I do not agree with "guilt by association" but I believe including this information is different than putting someone in jail for being a communist because that person had lunch with a communist. We are not talking about "guilt" in the judicial sense. The founders of RCP also founded NION. People have criticized McGovern for joining forces with Maoists who have a hidden agenda. That criticism is in the public domain and should not be censored and kept from the readers of wikipedia. RonCram 15:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it is different from putting someone in jail but it is not different from accusing someone of being a communist because they had lunch with a communist. Anyone interested in NION can click the link to learn more. It was founded by some members of RCP as well as other people not involved in RCP. Its key documents were written by people who are not RCP members. NION does not use any RCP information in their propaganda, and they do not advocate communism or Maoism. There is no "hidden agenda"; most NION members are simply not Maoists. "People" have not criticized McGovern for this; there is one single quote to this effect and its logic is feeble. There is no need to reproduce this non-notable quote in wikipedia just so you can have your moment of pique about Mr. McGovern.--csloat 19:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: PS take a look at the list of NION NION#Signatories on the wikipedia page. Are you telling me that the following people are Maoists? Bonnie Raitt? John Perry Barlow? Brian Eno? Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Oliver Stone, Studs Terkel, and Casey freakin' Kasem?? Some of them are millionaires, I doubt they support the forcible overthrow of the US government and redistribution of wealth (as your quote suggests NION members do). The claim that he is not anti-war because he supports a group that opposes the war and happens to have been formed by some maoists is nonsense and I think you know it.--csloat 19:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: RCP Nonsense

message: Lots of the citations here point back to Ray McGovern's work, which is fine for establishing what RM believes, but does nothing to establish the notability of this particular activist. Further, there are a lot of links to either RM's articles or somewhat marginal cites, giving the appearance of advertising. I will be trimming this article down in the near future, please feel free to discuss with me here. Bonewah (talk) 21:39, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lots of citations that point back to Ray McGovern's work. 

message: His website says he received it a year after Coretta Scott King. We do not have information on such an award neither in the ACLU's article nor in King's nor can I find any such information anywhere else. Can anyone help? Galant Khan (talk) 11:48, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[ACLU]] National Civil Liberties Award 

message: Substituted at 03:58, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: The new section added on August 1st by a user who already seems to have a controversial editing history and that references a "pro-Kremlin disinformant" references an article that actually fails to demonstrate disinformation or that the person targeted is demonstrably a proponent of the Kremlin.  The article itself is grossly misleading and contains several pieces of disinformation.  It has already been discredited to some extent, some claims have already been countered by Bill Binney and others involved (showing they were not being accurately represented) and many of the assertions in Campbell's article will be debunked within 24-48 hours of this comment being posted.  Campbell's article is demonstrably misleading and falsely labels independent researchers as "pro-kremlin" simply because their discoveries don't support what Mr. Campbell believes in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.9.213.19 (talk) 13:33, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Allegations Published By Duncan Campbell Are Unfounded & Based On His Speculation And Opinion 

message: *If an alternate wording of the information is desired, or if you are able to better rephrase the information above, your help in redrafting it would be most appreciated. Please feel free to propose any rewrites here on the talk page that might help convey the information better. Regards,  spintendo  18:47, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply 13-AUG-2018

message: I rephrased that section as the language used does not belong in an encyclopedia. It's not the role of the encyclopedia to express opinions and assign labels to people. I retained reference to the article in order to illustrate that McGovern's views are controversial. ~Julek Kopczewski  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.70.115.200 (talk) 14:50, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply 12-APR-2018

message: > McGovern was persuaded by a pro-Kremlin disinformant that the theft of the DNC emails was an inside job, and not the work of Russian agents (contrary to the findings of the US intelligence community). The disinformation agent manipulated metadata in the files released by Guccifer 2.0 (whom the US intelligence community identifies as a Russian military intelligence operation) to show that the documents came from a computer in the Eastern United States, not Russia. McGovern subsequently released a VIPS report, which many VIPS members did not sign, that claimed that the DNC email hack was an inside job
Is this one source really enough to plainly state this as fact?  I'm not familiar with the source cited (ComputerWorld.com), so I'm not really sure how much credit to give it, but I'd doubt that the man himself would agree with this description of events.
Overall, the "views and activism" sections seems to just be a series of controversial episodes, but it didn't give me much picture of what McGovern is about or what his general worldview is.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.114.147.77 (talk) 16:41, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you clarify what is wrong with the cited source? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:20, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

text: Well apparently whoever added this into the article can't read (assuming good faith here).  "Many of the VIPS members however... expressed a view that the inside job theory itself is a disinformation campaign run by a pro-Kremlin hacker Tim Leonard." is not at all supported by the source.  Nobody in VIPS has claimed this, that's entirely speculation by this source of dubious quality.98.127.81.62 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 00:13, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Russian election interference" section

message: :Comments are welcome :)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by May1787 (talk • contribs) 06:40, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: As I believe Ray McGovern stated recently on YouTube, these are planned leaks. None of these leaks to the US puppet New York Times are always sanctioned by American intellegence agencies. Note how CNN does not mention the SBU.  Security Service of Ukraine The Russian government states that the SBU was responsible. There was a woman with 3 license plates that came up through Ukraine then planted the bomb then passed through (previous) Fascist Estonia.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia_in_World_War_II
May1787 (talk) 06:40, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ray McGovern mentioned in Darya Dugina article 

message: It's about the Julian Assange, WikiLeaks and Edward Snowden section. Personal opinion about something IS a primary resource. If a personal opinion is published by independent on the person media, then such media IS non primary. Bocin kolega (talk) 15:17, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non primary resource needed? 

message: Added to the page:
* Ray McGovern official site
Blocked:
*  www globalresearch ca/author/veteran-intelligence-professionals-for-sanity Archive Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity Archive.
Ironcurtain2 (talk) 12:30, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  raymcgovern.com Ray McGovern  official site

message: "In December 2015, McGovern participated in Russian state media outlet RT's tenth anniversary celebration"
If he did, he was not at the same table with Putin, Flynn, and Jill Stein as implied.  There's a photo of that entire table, and McGovern is not sitting at it: https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_nbcnews-ux-2880-1000,f_auto,q_auto:best/newscms/2017_22/1955941/170405-putin-flynn-dinner-jhc-1700.jpg 
2603:6010:4500:7061:E16C:9B30:4B76:487F (talk) 12:02, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  McGovern not obviously at RT anniversary celebration