Talk:Eisack/Archive 1

message: Same as Talk:Etsch-Adige. I don't know where and when it was decided to change all the names of places in the Province of Bolzano (Italy) putting the german name first I only know that:
*It's wrong, the towns/cities/rivers/whatever are in Italy - in a province where the two languages have the same rights - but they are in Italy, if there is no "english" name the article should be with the italian name and a redirect from the german name.
*Wikipedia is not the correct place for this (out of date) "sort-of-irredentist" battles...
--Civvi 20:38, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Gryffindor, I am not "forcing" anything, I'm just pointing out that no river called Eisack-Isarco exists, so the title of this article is wrong and the article should be moved to an existing name. The river has no english name plus the river is in Italy so my suggestion is to move it to the italian name with a redirect from the German name since the river flows through a province where the "German language is parified with the Italian language". For towns and cities the double name is actually officially used - even if in the form Italianname (Germanname) but not for other geographical entities like rivers, mountains and so on. Or are we going to rename/write all articles about mountains with the double name? Sassolungo-Lankofel? Catinaccio-Rosengarten-Ciadenac or Val di Fassa-Fassatal-Val de Fascia (we are not discrimining the third official language, are we?) Uh...that would be quite confusing... ;-) --Civvi 13:31, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Look, I'm not from South Tyrol. But I know that the German and the Italian are both official languages, it is even written in the Italian Constitution. By proposing to only have "Isarco", you are forcing the Italian name at the cost of the German one. That is simply not acceptable, because minorities have the same right to be heard and use their language. Gryffindor 22:57, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

text: @Civvi: I think You need a an update concerning the status of Südtirol, You can write to me (German, Italian, English or Spanish) if I can send You something.--MartinS
*Support double names sound ridiculous to me. Eisack is as good as Isarco, choose one and let the other be a redirect. And maybe do the same for towns and villages. After all this neither the German wikipedia nor the Italian one. Otherwise put all the names on the tile of the Danube river.. it sounds ridiculous, doesn, it? --Cruccone 16:51, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move to [[Isarco]]

message: The Danube comment is irrelevant, because that river has an English name. The subject of our current discussion has no such English name. --Stemonitis 09:42, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: During the Diskussion about the naming of cities, villages, mountins and rivers in South Tyrol we found this agreement:
if the object is located in a mainly etnic german area an if ther isen't an English Name shut be used the German name quoting the Italian name in the first row. This means for Eisack the name has to be german. Etsch-Adige has been moved to Adige--MartinS 18:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: moved to [[Eisack]]

message: :The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The current name of the article, "Eisack-Isarco", is a combination of the German name ("Eisack") and the Italian name ("Isarco"). This type of bilingual naming was found to be undesirable in a survey at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol, see also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names. The three most plausible options are listed below, please cast your votes. Markussep 18:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Limiting to English hits changes these to 847 to 1410. Google, plain Google, is not a good test. I suspect this is demonstrating that river occurs (probably as a loan word) in Italian text, as these examples . Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gotcha, still, I'm in the opinion that when we come up with a name that is so borderline, I think it makes sense to err on the side of caution and go with the name used in the national language of its location. Icsunonove 07:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
This article has been renamed  as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 11:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Move request April 2007

message: Add any additional comments
This is the census I referred to: . The Eisack flows through Brenner, Italy (79% German), Sterzing (75%), Freienfeld (96%), Franzensfeste (58%), Vahrn (88%), Brixen (73%), Feldthurns (99%), Klausen (91%), Waidbruck (91%), Karneid (87%) and Bolzano (26%). Some English use statistics: 
*Google Scholar:
**Eisack river 18
**Isarco river 29
*Google (only English language, .org, -wikipedia):
**Eisack river 97
**Isarco river 87
Markussep 18:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Limiting to English hits changes these to 847 to 1410. Google, plain Google, is not a good test. I suspect this is demonstrating that river occurs (probably as a loan word) in Italian text, as these examples . Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gotcha, still, I'm in the opinion that when we come up with a name that is so borderline, I think it makes sense to err on the side of caution and go with the name used in the national language of its location. Icsunonove 07:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div>
This article has been renamed  as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 11:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: :The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the proposal was not moved. No consensus reached after 12 days of heated discussion. Page was already moved at least once three months ago. ●DanMS • Talk 00:12, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
* Support As requester.  See discussion for reasons (i.e., we made mistakes above in our numbers/logic) Icsunonove 22:07, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Read Wikipedia: Naming conventions (geographic names) for the policies about how to name articles in the English wikipedia. The fact that Italy defends linguistic minorities is admirable but unimportant.--Supparluca 15:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's strange that a region who has decided its own rule with a law is less important than Wikipedia and its rules. It's time that Wikipedia will write also national Constitutions!!! --Ilario 17:05, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ilario, what the heck are you going on about? :))) Icsunonove 05:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Any additional comments:
==== Language spoken ====
I realized today that, due to no real fault of Markussep, we made a slight oversight in figuring out the majority language in order to locate this page.  The towns/cities the river flows through are correct, but we have many villages listed who have 1000s if only 100s of people, but the main city the river flows through (Bolzano (Bozen)) has two or three orders of magnitude the people.  Anyone have a chance, please check my numbers: Brenner (Brennero); 79% German/20% Italian; population 2,072 (1,639; 414); Sterzing (Vipiteno); 75% German/24% Italian; population 5,997 (4,498; 1,439); Freienfeld (Campo di Trens); 96% German/3% Italian; population 2,460 (2,362; 74); Franzensfeste (Fortezza); 58% German/41% Italian; population 892 (517; 366); Vahrn (Varna); 88% German/11% Italian; population: 3,994 (3,515; 439); Brixen (Bressanone); 73% German/26% Italian; 19,163 (13,989; 4,982); Feldthurns (Velturno); 99% German/1% Italian; 2,666 (2639; 27); Klausen (Chiusa); 91% German/8% Italian; 4,622 (4206; 370); Waidbruck (Ponte Gardena) 91$ German/9% Italian: 193 (176; 17); Karneid (Cornedo all'Isarco) 87% German/12% Italian; population: 3,111 (2707; 373); Bolzano (Bozen); 26% German/73% Italian; population 100,179 (26,047; 73,131): Grand Totals: German: 62,295; Italian: 81,632. So per consensus on the communes page, we need to move this page to Isarco.  I've put a move request though so we can be more formal. Icsunonove 22:13, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

text: This gives undue weight to the large city which has more than twice as many inhabitants than all others towns combined which have about 36,000 German vs. 8,000 Italian. How about counting river length in predominately German or Italian area? -- Matthead discuß!     O       00:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Undue weight to the large city???  Now who is looking for a loophole????  Would you have us derive some more complex formula maybe?  Add some weighting to the cities, inversely proportional to the population of the town, together with the language spoken subtracted from number of towns multiplied by the length of the portion of river, divided by the number of syllables in the peoples' surnames?  Should we factor in the depth of the river too so we can compute volume of liquid?  Obviously more water equals more weight!  We can't give too much credit to people living next to a mere meter of water!!  I used basic math, not looking for any loopholes, you appear in some sort of desperation to circumvent the consensus.  If you say you will name places and villages based on population, you can't list 100 villages with 10 people each and compare them to one city with 10x the number of people.  It isn't comparing apples to oranges. Give me a break.. Icsunonove 05:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In Dutch we have several expressions for this: one involves measuring the weight of raisins, one involves sorting flies by size, and another, more rude version involves sexual intercourse with ants. In other words: I can't be bothered anymore. Do as you like, just no double names anymore. Markussep Talk 11:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I was obviously speaking tongue-in-cheek in my previous post.  I'm only being rigorous in the application of the consensus found on communes page.  The criteria was English usage, and if that couldn't be found, than majority language spoken.  I thought you'd appreciate that I critiqued your analysis and made a correction.  This is of course the way to add things correctly.  I shouldn't get lambasted for having us use consistent units when we add. Icsunonove 17:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

text: See my updates above. In English use, connected with river or valley, only "Isarco River" beats its counterpart by factor 4 (and even the Italian "fiume Isarco" in all languages!), in all other comparisons the German version is more frequent. -- Matthead discuß!     O       04:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ?? "Isarco": 49,800; "Eisack": 9,450; "Isarco river": 758; "Eisack river":112; "Isarco valley": 568; "Eisack valley": 543 (all with "-wikipedia"). How can these results show a preference for Eisack in English?--Supparluca 11:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The "valle Isarco" top hit says "the valley of Valle Isarco". Is that the kind of language you want to use as reference for Wikipedia? Apparently there are many local websites out there promoting tourism with a crude mix of English, Italian, German  On the other hand, the top hits for "Eisack valley" are scientific papers on the Alpine Iceman  apparently written by native speakers of English. -- Matthead discuß!     O       12:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I quote WP:NCGN: "These are not reliable sources, especially for what we should use. Avoid raw google searches as far as possible; when they are used, always include "-wikipedia" in the search conditions." These searches show up several of the defects which raw google may be expected to have, in particular, results which are in fact citing addresses in Italy and the names of Italian companies. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Elementary searching shows that many published sources, quite sensibly, use Isarco/Eisack, or Eisack/Isarco. Searching Google Books for one wihout the other, and adding "river" to cut down on the false positives, yields Isarco 172, Eisack 235. These results should be further combed to eliminate more false positives, but I'm underwhelmed. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:45, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is fine if we disregard Google in this matter, but then the next step is to by language spoke, or origin of the place.  You could at least give a weak support my friend. :P Icsunonove 22:56, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the next step from an invalid method  is one of the six methods actually suggested by WP:NCGN to guage English usage. I will add that the population test, for most communes, gives the name used by 80 or 90% of the population, not 60%56%57% (we round up .7 generally Icsunonove 23:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, then to be blunt, there has to be a really good reason for naming rivers in Italy, in German. Icsunonove 23:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The reason is really good: Many Italian citizens prefer the established name Eisack. Just relax about the issue, and Go Blue! -- Matthead discuß!     O       01:16, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Many Italian citizens prefer the established name Eisack", reference please?  I wasn't aware they had polled the citizens on such matter. Thanks for checking out my homepage though! Icsunonove 05:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

text: More reason than naming cities in Italy (Florence, Rome, Venice, Milan) in French? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But in those cases it is exactly the case that they are clearly used in English, and for all intents-and-purposes are English words now (of French origin).  I've said before, Los Angeles is of Spanish origin, but do you know another name for the city in English?  What I'm saying, is in cases where it is ambiguous, having an Italian river named in German is just downright silly.  If we go and flaunt our criteria (or the criteria that was found by a majority of German speakers, I might add :) on naming places and villages in this region now, it is even that more glaring. Icsunonove 23:31, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I was asked by user Icsunonove to express my opinion about the name to be used here. I am afraid to say that I have no knowledge about this argument. I even think I have never written the words Eisack or Isarco in my life. The only things I can say is that this is a case where redirects are very useful, but I do not know what should be the "main" title. I think that nobody that speaks Italian only and does not live in the area would understand the name Eisack, so it is quite correct that on the Italian Wikipedia the article is under Isarco, but this can no lead to any conclusion (on the opposite side it could be said that a great part of Italian would not understand Isarco too). I do not know how is called by the local (this would be interesting). Anyway I think this question should be broader to the other names in the area. The same question/problem arise for Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Brenner pass, Sterzing (Vipiteno), just to quote some of the name present on this article. -- AnyFile 11:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I was asked too, so I looked around this and similar articles (disclaimer: I'm Italian). I didn't know about this fight over italian names in places where significant German speaking population lives. All I know is that the river is in Italy and it has an official Italian name (Isarco). I never heard the Eisack term, which is obviously used by a tiny minority of Italian speaking people and, I suppose, by the majority of German speaking people in Germany and elsewhere (a few of them would live near this river in Italy). The same goes for the other names: I may understand that Bozen is the German name of Bolzano, but you have lost me if you pretend that I should know that Vipiteno should really go by its German name of Sterzing, which is how the article is now called. Alfio 12:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: IMHO is good to have as main denomination Eisack-Isarco. We cannot apply the same rule of communes because it's easy to find the majority of language speaking for the commune (i.e. the denomination Brixen must be the main denomination). For the river it's not easy because it flows in different regions. I would accept the denomination of combined solution but I agree a little bit for that in German. Historically the region is a German speaking region (or better it was Ladin speaking in the past), it's normal that Google offers more results than Italian because they are recent results. As the German people has accepted the main denomination of Adige, I think that Eisack could be acceptable for us. IMHO we must follow the official language of the region when there is not a translation in English: The Eisack-Isarco flows entirely in South Tyrol... the official language of South Tyrol is German+Italian. I have seen the statistics but the consistent part of Italian presence is in Bozen... in any case it's not autochthonous population IMHO Bozen in this statistics must be cut of. --Ilario 14:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ilario, thanks for your coming to share input.  Yes, the region was Ladin speaking originally (and still is).  Ladin is just another Italian language, the particular one of this area.  Then there was German colonization, which is fine.  The point is you make the case for why all the names indeed have a place.  But Supparluca makes the best point above that everyone in Italy speaks Italian.. and this pseudo-divisions that a few rather extreme individuals like to portray, are simply crude politics.  By the way, the official language is Italian + German + Ladin.  I think valid names would be Isarco, and I'm fine with Isarco-Eisack or Isarco/Eisack. Icsunonove 17:17, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I inform you that "Bozen" isn't an English name, please speak English. By the way, the German (Austrian) users didn't accept the main denomination of Adige, they wanted to use the nice "Etsch-Adige" name.--Supparluca 15:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably you are new. There were other discussions in the past about this denominations Talk:Eisack/Archive, if you read the footer of discussions you can see that Isarco has been moved to Eisack and Etsch to Adige. I remember this discussion because the proposal to move Etsch to Adige was mine Talk:Etsch-Adige. In addition... there is not an ENGLISH denomination of Bozen , the English denominations follows the South Tyrol communes denominations... the same rule used by Brixen, for this reason I am free to use the German or Italian denomination in my discussions. --Ilario 17:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The situation was different for the Bolzano article, because in that case there was clear evidence that the English name was Bolzano, and for that reason the article was moved.--Supparluca 19:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, we've heard there were meetings in Bolzano and consensus found.  It is funny that a few people can get together and think they have decided for the World. :-)  No offense, but it is the impression given.  Nonetheless, I agree with what you say, either term can certainly be used in English.  You have the freedom to indeed say anything you desire. :-) Icsunonove 17:12, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: As for historic use: EB 1911 does not know Isarco, but Eisack  As the Eisack valley is part of the way to the Brenner pass, the Italian name Isarco might have been one of the few that were not made up by Tolomei in his Prontuario. Any evidence that it was known before him? Hardly surprising, the German-language Meyers Konversationslexikon 1885-1892 does not know Isarco, while the (not yet copy-edited) section about the Etsch mentions Adige and other Italian names. Are there similar Italian lexika of that time available online? -- Matthead discuß!     O       05:57, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Matthead, you said "the Italian name Isarco might have been one of the few that were not made up by Tolomei in his Prontuario", and that is where you are dead wrong my "slighty"-biased friend.  For example, Brenner is not Standard Italian, but it is certainly Italian.  It is an Italian word that Germans use, just as English use the Standard French word Milan.  You should actually say that there are only a few names in existence in Alto Adige that Tolomei made up if you really know what you are talking about.  For example, Sëlva.  The Standard Italian is Selva; you think this is made up?  I'll ask you what is made up, the German name of the town: Wolkenstein in Gröden.  Where the heck??  Even the example that is brought up often, Nova Ponente, which was indeed Nova Teutenica -- but has always just been Nova has the German name Deutschnofen.  Again, the heck??  It is obvious that Nova was "re-imagined" into Nofen.  So before you, as many of your countrymen, fall into the trap that Alto Adige is purely German and was renamed by some guy Tolomei 100 years ago... educate yourself a bit. :-)  By the way, what motorsports are you into?  Maybe that will be a more useful discussion :P Icsunonove 15:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *The original name of the river from Roman times is Hisarcus, if that was your question.  I imagine the German name Eisack was invented from Hisarcus, Isarco, Isarc, Hisarc, etc. Icsunonove 15:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As per EB 1911, the river was completely flowing in Austria until WWI. To be honest, as soon as there are all the redirects, both Eisack and Isarco are completely acceptable names IMHO. --Cruccone 16:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, of course they are both completely acceptable.  My argument was against this bogus POV that the Italian names are somehow imaginary. Note that this move request is here in order to properly implement the consensus found on the communes page.  Every name is always in the first paragraph. Icsunonove 17:46, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
I disagree with this decision not only because there are 2 votes against the move of a total of 10, but also because Wikipedia is not a democracy; there are basically 0 arguments for a name and at least 5 (strong) for the other.--Supparluca 07:43, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah, definitely agree.  I think these move requests are very often misinterpeted by the one who closes it.  Even if it is 1 agree to 20 disagrees, but the one person has the valid argument, it must be moved.  Here we have a situation where all these pages were moved from double names to single names based on some methodology, but in this case it was applied incorrectly.  Actually, the page should just simply be moved maybe.. Icsunonove 20:44, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Old requested move

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
* Support As requester.  See discussion for reasons (i.e., we made mistakes above in our numbers/logic) Icsunonove 22:07, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Read Wikipedia: Naming conventions (geographic names) for the policies about how to name articles in the English wikipedia. The fact that Italy defends linguistic minorities is admirable but unimportant.--Supparluca 15:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's strange that a region who has decided its own rule with a law is less important than Wikipedia and its rules. It's time that Wikipedia will write also national Constitutions!!! --Ilario 17:05, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ilario, what the heck are you going on about? :))) Icsunonove 05:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: :Any additional comments:
==== Language spoken ====
I realized today that, due to no real fault of Markussep, we made a slight oversight in figuring out the majority language in order to locate this page.  The towns/cities the river flows through are correct, but we have many villages listed who have 1000s if only 100s of people, but the main city the river flows through (Bolzano (Bozen)) has two or three orders of magnitude the people.  Anyone have a chance, please check my numbers: Brenner (Brennero); 79% German/20% Italian; population 2,072 (1,639; 414); Sterzing (Vipiteno); 75% German/24% Italian; population 5,997 (4,498; 1,439); Freienfeld (Campo di Trens); 96% German/3% Italian; population 2,460 (2,362; 74); Franzensfeste (Fortezza); 58% German/41% Italian; population 892 (517; 366); Vahrn (Varna); 88% German/11% Italian; population: 3,994 (3,515; 439); Brixen (Bressanone); 73% German/26% Italian; 19,163 (13,989; 4,982); Feldthurns (Velturno); 99% German/1% Italian; 2,666 (2639; 27); Klausen (Chiusa); 91% German/8% Italian; 4,622 (4206; 370); Waidbruck (Ponte Gardena) 91$ German/9% Italian: 193 (176; 17); Karneid (Cornedo all'Isarco) 87% German/12% Italian; population: 3,111 (2707; 373); Bolzano (Bozen); 26% German/73% Italian; population 100,179 (26,047; 73,131): Grand Totals: German: 62,295; Italian: 81,632. So per consensus on the communes page, we need to move this page to Isarco.  I've put a move request though so we can be more formal. Icsunonove 22:13, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This gives undue weight to the large city which has more than twice as many inhabitants than all others towns combined which have about 36,000 German vs. 8,000 Italian. How about counting river length in predominately German or Italian area? -- Matthead discuß!     O       00:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Undue weight to the large city???  Now who is looking for a loophole????  Would you have us derive some more complex formula maybe?  Add some weighting to the cities, inversely proportional to the population of the town, together with the language spoken subtracted from number of towns multiplied by the length of the portion of river, divided by the number of syllables in the peoples' surnames?  Should we factor in the depth of the river too so we can compute volume of liquid?  Obviously more water equals more weight!  We can't give too much credit to people living next to a mere meter of water!!  I used basic math, not looking for any loopholes, you appear in some sort of desperation to circumvent the consensus.  If you say you will name places and villages based on population, you can't list 100 villages with 10 people each and compare them to one city with 10x the number of people.  It isn't comparing apples to oranges. Give me a break.. Icsunonove 05:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In Dutch we have several expressions for this: one involves measuring the weight of raisins, one involves sorting flies by size, and another, more rude version involves sexual intercourse with ants. In other words: I can't be bothered anymore. Do as you like, just no double names anymore. Markussep Talk 11:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I was obviously speaking tongue-in-cheek in my previous post.  I'm only being rigorous in the application of the consensus found on communes page.  The criteria was English usage, and if that couldn't be found, than majority language spoken.  I thought you'd appreciate that I critiqued your analysis and made a correction.  This is of course the way to add things correctly.  I shouldn't get lambasted for having us use consistent units when we add. Icsunonove 17:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: I realized today that, due to no real fault of Markussep, we made a slight oversight in figuring out the majority language in order to locate this page.  The towns/cities the river flows through are correct, but we have many villages listed who have 1000s if only 100s of people, but the main city the river flows through (Bolzano (Bozen)) has two or three orders of magnitude the people.  Anyone have a chance, please check my numbers: Brenner (Brennero); 79% German/20% Italian; population 2,072 (1,639; 414); Sterzing (Vipiteno); 75% German/24% Italian; population 5,997 (4,498; 1,439); Freienfeld (Campo di Trens); 96% German/3% Italian; population 2,460 (2,362; 74); Franzensfeste (Fortezza); 58% German/41% Italian; population 892 (517; 366); Vahrn (Varna); 88% German/11% Italian; population: 3,994 (3,515; 439); Brixen (Bressanone); 73% German/26% Italian; 19,163 (13,989; 4,982); Feldthurns (Velturno); 99% German/1% Italian; 2,666 (2639; 27); Klausen (Chiusa); 91% German/8% Italian; 4,622 (4206; 370); Waidbruck (Ponte Gardena) 91$ German/9% Italian: 193 (176; 17); Karneid (Cornedo all'Isarco) 87% German/12% Italian; population: 3,111 (2707; 373); Bolzano (Bozen); 26% German/73% Italian; population 100,179 (26,047; 73,131): Grand Totals: German: 62,295; Italian: 81,632. So per consensus on the communes page, we need to move this page to Isarco.  I've put a move request though so we can be more formal. Icsunonove 22:13, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This gives undue weight to the large city which has more than twice as many inhabitants than all others towns combined which have about 36,000 German vs. 8,000 Italian. How about counting river length in predominately German or Italian area? -- Matthead discuß!     O       00:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Undue weight to the large city???  Now who is looking for a loophole????  Would you have us derive some more complex formula maybe?  Add some weighting to the cities, inversely proportional to the population of the town, together with the language spoken subtracted from number of towns multiplied by the length of the portion of river, divided by the number of syllables in the peoples' surnames?  Should we factor in the depth of the river too so we can compute volume of liquid?  Obviously more water equals more weight!  We can't give too much credit to people living next to a mere meter of water!!  I used basic math, not looking for any loopholes, you appear in some sort of desperation to circumvent the consensus.  If you say you will name places and villages based on population, you can't list 100 villages with 10 people each and compare them to one city with 10x the number of people.  It isn't comparing apples to oranges. Give me a break.. Icsunonove 05:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In Dutch we have several expressions for this: one involves measuring the weight of raisins, one involves sorting flies by size, and another, more rude version involves sexual intercourse with ants. In other words: I can't be bothered anymore. Do as you like, just no double names anymore. Markussep Talk 11:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I was obviously speaking tongue-in-cheek in my previous post.  I'm only being rigorous in the application of the consensus found on communes page.  The criteria was English usage, and if that couldn't be found, than majority language spoken.  I thought you'd appreciate that I critiqued your analysis and made a correction.  This is of course the way to add things correctly.  I shouldn't get lambasted for having us use consistent units when we add. Icsunonove 17:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language spoken 

message: English usage should always be in connection with river or valley
* "Isarco valley" (-wiki, English results): : 592 hits
* "Eisack valley" (-wiki, English results): : 657 hits
* "Eisacktal valley" (-wiki, English results): : 288 hits
* "Isarco River" (-wiki, English results):  802 hits
* "Eisack River" (-wiki, English results):  191 hits
* "River Isarco" (-wiki, English results):  152 hits
* "River Eisack" (-wiki, English results):  171 hits
Italian use is Isarco in connection with valle, val d' or fiume, German use is Eisacktal, or Eisacktaler, so its doubtful to attribute the following counts to use in English:
* Isarco (-wiki, English results): : 50,700 hits
* "Valle Isarco" (-wiki, English results): : 23,400 hits
* "Val d'Isarco" (-wiki, English results): : 11,200 hits
* "fiume Isarco" (-wiki, English results): : 59 hits
* Eisacktal (-wiki, English results):  21,100 hits
* Eisacktaler (-wiki, English results):  507 hits
* Eisack (-wiki, English results):  10,100 hits
There are even hits for mixes of Italian and German
* "Valle Eisack" (-wiki, English results): : 1 hit
* "Isarco tal" (-wiki, English results): : 14 hits
Comparison for proper use in Italian and German
* "fiume Isarco" (-wiki, All results): : 739 hits
* "der Eisack" (-wiki, All results): : 1500 hits
* "des Eisack" (-wiki, All results): : 814 hits
* "Eisack Fluss" (-wiki, All results): : 104 hits
Getting a factor of 4-5X more usage of Isarco. Icsunonove 22:22, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See my updates above. In English use, connected with river or valley, only "Isarco River" beats its counterpart by factor 4 (and even the Italian "fiume Isarco" in all languages!), in all other comparisons the German version is more frequent. -- Matthead discuß!     O       04:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ?? "Isarco": 49,800; "Eisack": 9,450; "Isarco river": 758; "Eisack river":112; "Isarco valley": 568; "Eisack valley": 543 (all with "-wikipedia"). How can these results show a preference for Eisack in English?--Supparluca 11:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The "valle Isarco" top hit says "the valley of Valle Isarco". Is that the kind of language you want to use as reference for Wikipedia? Apparently there are many local websites out there promoting tourism with a crude mix of English, Italian, German  On the other hand, the top hits for "Eisack valley" are scientific papers on the Alpine Iceman  apparently written by native speakers of English. -- Matthead discuß!     O       12:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I quote WP:NCGN: "These are not reliable sources, especially for what we should use. Avoid raw google searches as far as possible; when they are used, always include "-wikipedia" in the search conditions." These searches show up several of the defects which raw google may be expected to have, in particular, results which are in fact citing addresses in Italy and the names of Italian companies. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Elementary searching shows that many published sources, quite sensibly, use Isarco/Eisack, or Eisack/Isarco. Searching Google Books for one wihout the other, and adding "river" to cut down on the false positives, yields Isarco 172, Eisack 235. These results should be further combed to eliminate more false positives, but I'm underwhelmed. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:45, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is fine if we disregard Google in this matter, but then the next step is to by language spoke, or origin of the place.  You could at least give a weak support my friend. :P Icsunonove 22:56, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the next step from an invalid method  is one of the six methods actually suggested by WP:NCGN to guage English usage. I will add that the population test, for most communes, gives the name used by 80 or 90% of the population, not 60%56%57% (we round up .7 generally Icsunonove 23:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, then to be blunt, there has to be a really good reason for naming rivers in Italy, in German. Icsunonove 23:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The reason is really good: Many Italian citizens prefer the established name Eisack. Just relax about the issue, and Go Blue! -- Matthead discuß!     O       01:16, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Many Italian citizens prefer the established name Eisack", reference please?  I wasn't aware they had polled the citizens on such matter. Thanks for checking out my homepage though! Icsunonove 05:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

text: More reason than naming cities in Italy (Florence, Rome, Venice, Milan) in French? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But in those cases it is exactly the case that they are clearly used in English, and for all intents-and-purposes are English words now (of French origin).  I've said before, Los Angeles is of Spanish origin, but do you know another name for the city in English?  What I'm saying, is in cases where it is ambiguous, having an Italian river named in German is just downright silly.  If we go and flaunt our criteria (or the criteria that was found by a majority of German speakers, I might add :) on naming places and villages in this region now, it is even that more glaring. Icsunonove 23:31, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I was asked by user Icsunonove to express my opinion about the name to be used here. I am afraid to say that I have no knowledge about this argument. I even think I have never written the words Eisack or Isarco in my life. The only things I can say is that this is a case where redirects are very useful, but I do not know what should be the "main" title. I think that nobody that speaks Italian only and does not live in the area would understand the name Eisack, so it is quite correct that on the Italian Wikipedia the article is under Isarco, but this can no lead to any conclusion (on the opposite side it could be said that a great part of Italian would not understand Isarco too). I do not know how is called by the local (this would be interesting). Anyway I think this question should be broader to the other names in the area. The same question/problem arise for Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Brenner pass, Sterzing (Vipiteno), just to quote some of the name present on this article. -- AnyFile 11:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I was asked too, so I looked around this and similar articles (disclaimer: I'm Italian). I didn't know about this fight over italian names in places where significant German speaking population lives. All I know is that the river is in Italy and it has an official Italian name (Isarco). I never heard the Eisack term, which is obviously used by a tiny minority of Italian speaking people and, I suppose, by the majority of German speaking people in Germany and elsewhere (a few of them would live near this river in Italy). The same goes for the other names: I may understand that Bozen is the German name of Bolzano, but you have lost me if you pretend that I should know that Vipiteno should really go by its German name of Sterzing, which is how the article is now called. Alfio 12:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: IMHO is good to have as main denomination Eisack-Isarco. We cannot apply the same rule of communes because it's easy to find the majority of language speaking for the commune (i.e. the denomination Brixen must be the main denomination). For the river it's not easy because it flows in different regions. I would accept the denomination of combined solution but I agree a little bit for that in German. Historically the region is a German speaking region (or better it was Ladin speaking in the past), it's normal that Google offers more results than Italian because they are recent results. As the German people has accepted the main denomination of Adige, I think that Eisack could be acceptable for us. IMHO we must follow the official language of the region when there is not a translation in English: The Eisack-Isarco flows entirely in South Tyrol... the official language of South Tyrol is German+Italian. I have seen the statistics but the consistent part of Italian presence is in Bozen... in any case it's not autochthonous population IMHO Bozen in this statistics must be cut of. --Ilario 14:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ilario, thanks for your coming to share input.  Yes, the region was Ladin speaking originally (and still is).  Ladin is just another Italian language, the particular one of this area.  Then there was German colonization, which is fine.  The point is you make the case for why all the names indeed have a place.  But Supparluca makes the best point above that everyone in Italy speaks Italian.. and this pseudo-divisions that a few rather extreme individuals like to portray, are simply crude politics.  By the way, the official language is Italian + German + Ladin.  I think valid names would be Isarco, and I'm fine with Isarco-Eisack or Isarco/Eisack. Icsunonove 17:17, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I inform you that "Bozen" isn't an English name, please speak English. By the way, the German (Austrian) users didn't accept the main denomination of Adige, they wanted to use the nice "Etsch-Adige" name.--Supparluca 15:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably you are new. There were other discussions in the past about this denominations Talk:Eisack/Archive, if you read the footer of discussions you can see that Isarco has been moved to Eisack and Etsch to Adige. I remember this discussion because the proposal to move Etsch to Adige was mine Talk:Etsch-Adige. In addition... there is not an ENGLISH denomination of Bozen , the English denominations follows the South Tyrol communes denominations... the same rule used by Brixen, for this reason I am free to use the German or Italian denomination in my discussions. --Ilario 17:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The situation was different for the Bolzano article, because in that case there was clear evidence that the English name was Bolzano, and for that reason the article was moved.--Supparluca 19:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, we've heard there were meetings in Bolzano and consensus found.  It is funny that a few people can get together and think they have decided for the World. :-)  No offense, but it is the impression given.  Nonetheless, I agree with what you say, either term can certainly be used in English.  You have the freedom to indeed say anything you desire. :-) Icsunonove 17:12, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: As for historic use: EB 1911 does not know Isarco, but Eisack  As the Eisack valley is part of the way to the Brenner pass, the Italian name Isarco might have been one of the few that were not made up by Tolomei in his Prontuario. Any evidence that it was known before him? Hardly surprising, the German-language Meyers Konversationslexikon 1885-1892 does not know Isarco, while the (not yet copy-edited) section about the Etsch mentions Adige and other Italian names. Are there similar Italian lexika of that time available online? -- Matthead discuß!     O       05:57, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Matthead, you said "the Italian name Isarco might have been one of the few that were not made up by Tolomei in his Prontuario", and that is where you are dead wrong my "slighty"-biased friend.  For example, Brenner is not Standard Italian, but it is certainly Italian.  It is an Italian word that Germans use, just as English use the Standard French word Milan.  You should actually say that there are only a few names in existence in Alto Adige that Tolomei made up if you really know what you are talking about.  For example, Sëlva.  The Standard Italian is Selva; you think this is made up?  I'll ask you what is made up, the German name of the town: Wolkenstein in Gröden.  Where the heck??  Even the example that is brought up often, Nova Ponente, which was indeed Nova Teutenica -- but has always just been Nova has the German name Deutschnofen.  Again, the heck??  It is obvious that Nova was "re-imagined" into Nofen.  So before you, as many of your countrymen, fall into the trap that Alto Adige is purely German and was renamed by some guy Tolomei 100 years ago... educate yourself a bit. :-)  By the way, what motorsports are you into?  Maybe that will be a more useful discussion :P Icsunonove 15:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *The original name of the river from Roman times is Hisarcus, if that was your question.  I imagine the German name Eisack was invented from Hisarcus, Isarco, Isarc, Hisarc, etc. Icsunonove 15:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As per EB 1911, the river was completely flowing in Austria until WWI. To be honest, as soon as there are all the redirects, both Eisack and Isarco are completely acceptable names IMHO. --Cruccone 16:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, of course they are both completely acceptable.  My argument was against this bogus POV that the Italian names are somehow imaginary. Note that this move request is here in order to properly implement the consensus found on the communes page.  Every name is always in the first paragraph. Icsunonove 17:46, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div>
I disagree with this decision not only because there are 2 votes against the move of a total of 10, but also because Wikipedia is not a democracy; there are basically 0 arguments for a name and at least 5 (strong) for the other.--Supparluca 07:43, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah, definitely agree.  I think these move requests are very often misinterpeted by the one who closes it.  Even if it is 1 agree to 20 disagrees, but the one person has the valid argument, it must be moved.  Here we have a situation where all these pages were moved from double names to single names based on some methodology, but in this case it was applied incorrectly.  Actually, the page should just simply be moved maybe.. Icsunonove 20:44, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Google USA 

message: I've understand that some have recently 'decided' that this article should be called "Eisack". The main argument was supposably that this was because of the linguistic majority around the river. I have have never ever heard about this being done in wikipedia. Maybe we should rename Oder to Odra. After all, more poles than Germans live along it. Talking about linguistic majority. On this wikipedia that's English speakers, so you can go call it Eissack on the German wikipedia but leave this one alone, English speakers say Isarco.Rex 09:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the consensus was found on the comunes of south tyrol page, by I guess many German speakers.  Go figure. :-)  I don't see what the big issue is using the Standard Italian language names and then including all the relevant dialects, local languages, German, etc. in the first sentence. Icsunonove 17:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Me neither. If it were up to me, it would be "Cuius regio, eius nomen", then again ... Germans are a strange lot. I always get the feeling they're somehow convinced German cannot be translated into English.Rex 21:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue has been discussed and voted upon. I am moving this article back to where it used to be. Gryffindor 04:28, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And even by the language-speaking consensus, this river belongs at Isarco.  Not even the basic rules mean anything to you, eh? Icsunonove 05:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ridiculous move

message: I think the discussion about who invented what has no sense.  All toponyms in all countries are almost always derived from slightly different versions used somewhere in the past, and the way of a name from, say 2000 years ago, down to our days is usually gradual with many intermediate versions.  Concerning the Prontuario, it may be sufficient to read section Translation Methodology, better if integrated by section Critiche of its Italian (!) edition.  --Hedorfer 14:41, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They don't want to do this though, they want to imagine that everything here is simply German, end of story.  It makes things simpler for them to parse in their minds, I suppose. :) Icsunonove (talk) 08:01, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prontuario 

message: Despite the outcome of the discussion and the vote above, the page had been unilaterally moved by User:Icsunonove on 27 September 2007, even though he was the only one who voted against the proposal. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:53, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The page was moved previously by another user.--Supparluca 10:35, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

text: There is no reason for a vote.  The established protocol simply calls for English-language usage to locate our pages. That is demonstrated through Google search and also the reference to the Encyclopedia Brittanica (a reference that I note has now been removed -- gee, I wonder why :).  Secondly, if English usage can not be established, next is local majority.  The local majority along the length of Isarco-Eisack river is Italian (as noted above).  So, by either one or two, it should be at Isarco.  Also, Wikipedia is not a democracy, so your discussion of votes means you only misunderstand how policy is kept here.  Anyway, if you all instead simply intend to blindly make everything in German for this province, well... Icsunonove (talk) 08:00, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please respect the discussion and the clear outcome of the vote (5.5-1 for Eisack; 2.5-1 against Isarco). Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 00:43, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, Gun Powder Ma.  Wikipedia is not a democracy, this is a very important point to understand.  We have a criteria to follow.  You can check on the Ortisei page that it was moved by an Admin, not because of the number of votes, but based on the validity of the argument made.  The criteria we use is English usage first and then majority language spoken second.  English usage is shown in Brittanica and also Google searches.  Secondly, the majority of speakers along the river are Italian, so you yourself should be interested in using the criteria.  Or is it only of interest when it shows a page should be moved to a German name?  So, these are two points for you to think about.  Going and accusing people of disregarding votes makes no sense, and again is offensive and an unnecessary attack.  If we get 2,000 PRC citizens to come on here and vote that we should move Taiwan to PRC Province of Taiwan, do we do that?  No.  Icsunonove (talk) 06:37, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Gun Power Ma, again, Wikipedia is not a democracy.  The vote is not what drives decisions, you must really get your hands around that concept.  That said, we certainly can re-open the discussion to determine in a neutral fashion 1) what is most commonly used in English 2) if no English usage is used, what language is spoken most around said artifact.  Fair enough?  Icsunonove (talk) 23:57, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eisack 

message: *Google: isarco 37,400 - eisack 4,180 - isarco river 573 - eisack river 331 - isarco river bolzano 348 - eisack river bolzano 182 - isarco bolzano 23,400 - eisack bolzano 865.
*Google news: isarco 2 - eisack 0.
*Google books: isarco river 116 - eisack river 28.
*Google scholar: isarco river 18 - eisack river 1.
*The NGIA GNS server finds Isarco and Eisack as a variant.
*TGN uses isarco.
"Isarco" is clearly the name most commonly used in English, it's not a good idea to move a page without discussion, citing only a vote held 20 (twenty) months ago. Can you give logical reasons for moving the page?--Supparluca 10:35, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Supparluca, we can setup a move vote again and make sure there is an Admin to look at it and see the validity of the arguements, not the number of votes.  My opinion is that Isarco is the most common usage in English and also my numbers above show that there are more Italian speakers along the river.  Of course you know that these editors blindly believe that any case we make anything in the Italian language as proof of our goal to Italianize.  @_@  It is just too bad I picked a username with Italian words, so they blindly lump me you, Checco, etc.  I could of just as easily picked an English or German name.  :) Icsunonove (talk) 06:40, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Page move