Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles/Archive 16

message: User:Tokyo Watcher, also editing as User:博多っ子, has been adding kanji after every occurrence of a Japanese proper noun and linking such kanji to ja.  After an exhaustive exchange, I appear to have convinced him that policy does not support adding kanji everywhere.  However, he demands to know what specific policy prohibits inline links to ja from the existing kanji in the lead sentence of articles.  I'm not sure why he keeps talking to me as he clearly doesn't believe my arguments, so could someone else either talk to him or just add an "Interlanguage links should not be used inline" sentence to this page, so Tokyo Watcher can be content? Thanks muchly, BanyanTree 01:31, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've updated the appropriate section to make this more clear. Hope that helps. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 00:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently not.  I tried, but, with the latest response here, now I'm as frustrated as BanyanTree. Neier 01:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the biggest problem is a language barrier. Tokyo Watcher obviously doesn't have a native or near-native grasp of English, and is either not understanding the MOS-JA, is pretending to not understand, or is refusing to understand and accept the MOS-JA. I'm going to assume the first. It may be useful if someone could explain it in Japanese on his page. I don't think I could do a good enough job, though. If he still doesn't want to understand, then we'll have to come up with some other way fo dealing with this problem. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I originally thought so too; but, after showing him the MOS rule, his response that "various interpretations to be possible" indicates to me that he understands the points, and just does not agree with them.  I've also tried to steer him here where he can go full-throttle in Japanese; but, no dice. Neier 07:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely rewrote Fushimi Sanpō Inari Jinja into English. The other articles listed on his user page need to be touched by the English fairy as well so they'll be understandable. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  linking kanji to ja 

message: well hello people i just want to learn japanese —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Powerislove2006 (talk • contribs).
:There are many books you could use in almost any bookstore. Many colleges and universities 9and high schools) teach Japanese as well. Please note, however, that this page is for discussing the Manual of Style (Japan-related articles), not for requests on where to go to learn Japanese (or expressions that one wishes to learn Japanese). ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 16:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  hi 

message: Please do not move the above articles to the Romaji name, because the Manual of Style says that articles on people should have the popular English name of these people as their titles when possible. In the case of these three people, their popular names do not include macrons, unfortunately. Flyingtoaster1337 13:36, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You said, "Their popular names do not include macrons, unfortunately". This means, this English Wikipedia have been spreading misspelled names and misspoken pronunciations decisively rather than other Western mass media, because Wikipedias, esp. English Wikipedia has been already the most famous and authoritative encyclopedia. YOU have mistaken causes and effects. "Their popular names"? Their true names have never been "popular", though Shinzō Abe, Jun-ichirō Koizumi, and Kijūrō Shidehara are the current and past Prime Ministers of Japan, because YOU have been spreading their misspelled names which lead to misspeak. Anyway, my talk page is not appropriate place for the discussion of Japanese names and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). I have to copy and paste this section to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). --Rocky7 06:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

text: As you aptly talked, YOU and Western mass media, esp. this English Wikipedia, have been producing and re-producing "a serious and HUGE problem" as to how to spell and speak Japanese names, though it is a very very simple and important problem. Current subtitled news on televisions, articles of newspapers, etc. can never reflect "the proper pronunciations" of Japanese names. But YOU can easily do only by adding diacritic marks to them correctly or using those alternatives. Apparently YOU and Western encyclopedias, esp. English Wikipedia should spell people's names correctly, such as Shinzō Abe, Jun-ichirō Koizumi, and Kijūrō Shidehara. All Japanese romanized names are directly expressing their exact pronunciations as they are. But those are not one of phonetic alphabets at all. Those are just true real names. Such a wonderful feat are possible only in case of the words of Japanese language origin, therefore, it is very reasonable to put those romanization marks( ā, ē, ī, ō, ū, n- or n' ) on words of Japanese origin. YOU have mistaken causes and effects, too. Indeed, Japanese themselves often cut necessary diacritic signs, but this is because all Japanese know their correct pronunciations perfectly by other methods such as kanji and common sense, and because there are cases that it is impossible to add diacritic signs, e.g. names of credit card. But Japanese themselves are methodical and easy to forget, therefore, they themselves need perfectly correct records, esp. in encyclopedias, esp. concerning Japanese names. Besides, Japanese names which diacritic marks are not omitted are true Japanese names as well as non-English Western names. Shinzo Abe, Junichiro Koizumi, etc. are only the misspelled versions of the correct Japanese names, as well as German names, French names, etc. which diacritic marks are cutted. Anyway, my talk page is not appropriate place for the discussion of Japanese names and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). I have to copy and paste this section to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). --Rocky7 06:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  YOUR moves of [[Shinzo Abe]], [[Junichiro Koizumi]], and [[Kijuro Shidehara]] 

message: "Please use the exact romanized names or its proper alternatives as possible as you can in this English Wilpedia, esp. in the title, because the exact romanized names are Japanese true names all over the world. This is common sense of pure Japanese(not including ethnic Japanese). As for misspelled versions or omitted ones of the words of Japanese origin, esp. Japanese names, it is natural to comment them as "misspelled versions or omitted ones" in the opening paragraph, because all of them are evidently "loan words". --Rocky7 06:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use the exact [[romanized name]]s or those proper alternatives in this English Wikipedia! 

message: "Storm of Spring" and is this one of the famous racism attacks to Japanese people? I'm sad, but I have to write. It is already well-known that there are too many anti-Japanese racism admins and sockpuppets in English Wikipedia and Japanese one. Apart from YOUR anti-Japanese racism policy, the words of Japanese origin, esp. Japanese names apparently should be kept their romanization-macrons( ā, ē, ī, ō, ū ) as they are except using those proper alternatives, because YOU(not only English-language speakers but all the people in the world, including Japanese themselves) cannot pronouce Japanese alphabetical names correctly without the help of the diacritic signs. Therefore, current WP:MOS-JA seems to be only the very stupid products by anti-Japanese racism people such as Chinese and Koreans, who cannot convert their own language words to alphabetical ones as they are with simple and exact romanization. On the other hand, wise Westerns who have visited [Japan]] and studied Japanese language have taught romanization style to Japanese people for their own sake and for all Western-languages speakers since 19c, because romanization style is corresponding with Japanese language rather than German language and Italian language, and romanization style of Japanese words is very, very simple and useful, because you are only indicated to extend the sound of marked character or not to liaison "n" and "[next vowel]". This is very simple principles, but exteremely important laws because it is obviously enough easy that anyone cannot misspell and misspeak. Such a simple and essencial principle is not observed in other languages, even in neighbor countries' ones, e.g. Chinese language, Korean language. In case of Chinese romanized names and Korean ones, there are not such a easy and exact law, therefore, diacritic marks cannot be needed, because if they use diacritic marks, they would need too many ones to practice. The pronunciations of their names in English language and ones in their native tongues are ordinally quite different. In other words, English names of Chinese and Koreans are fatally pseudonyms from an auditory pespective. Contrary to them, Japanese romanized names are real names that are used in Japan and that should be used all over the world as they are. Japanese romanized names which diacritic marks are cutted inappropriately, are only the misspelled version or omitted version of their real names. When Japanese themselves use Japanese romanized names which diacritic marks are cutted, they are using the omitted version with consideration, because all Japanese know those correct versions with other measures such as kanji, hiragana, katagana or Japanese common sense. But when non-Japanese people use Japanese romanized names which diacritic marks are cutted, they are often only using the misspelled version with no consideration, because they are not taght correct spellings and exact pronunciations by the titles of English Wikipedia. In Japanese romanized words, there are twelve specific characters( Ā , ā , Ē , ē , Ī , ī , Ō , ō , Ū , ū , n- or n') at most. In case of Japanese person's names, eight specific characters( Ī , ī , Ō , ō , Ū , ū , n- or n') are used. These characters are divided to only two groups, this is, extending type and non-liaisoning type. How foolish you are, if you cannot realize and practice such easy two types! Japanese diacritic marks are absolutely necessary in order to spell Japanese names correctly, to speak them exactly, and to be received amicably by Japanese people themselves. Why can YOU order people to misspell and misspeak Japanese names? --Rocky7 06:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don't order people to misspell (and misspeak) [[Japanese name]]s. 

message: The most important thing when spell(speak)ing the words of Japanese origin, esp. Japanese names, is to pronounce them correctly as possible as YOU can, in other words, to spell them exactly as possible as you can, because Japanese themselves know their romanized names( and their proper alternatives) are directly expressing their real names and that their exact pronunciations are reflected by their exact romanized names. If you don't spell them exactly and/or speak them correctly, even the wisest Japanese often cannot notice that the words YOU told are the words of Japanese origin, even if they are the famous Japanese names. Only diacritic marks can avoid ALL from getting stuck to such a silly problem. In order to confirm their exact pronunciations, YOU should use IPA, not romanized names. Only exact romanized names or their proper alternatives should be used as the title of English Wikipedia, and misspelled versions and omitted ones of them should be introduced as "misspelled or omitted version", because this is the truth. These "misspelled or omitted version"s are permanently "misspelled or omitted version"s, however popular they are. Japanese themselves have been using omitted versions as omitted versions, then of cource so have been Westerns. In Japanese language, a completely same set of pronunciations ordinally has too many meanings which are quite different from each other. All Japanese guess the meanings of them from the context and/or kanji. Each pronunciation of each character of Japanese language is too simple to misspell and misspeak. Because of this circumstances, all Japanese can concentrate their attention only on distinguishing the meaning of words from others. Therefore, if a pronunciation of a marked character is not correct, even the most intelligent Japanese often cannot understand them correctly and would be puzzled. The more famous Japanese names they are, the more puzzled they are. --Rocky7 06:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The most important thing! 

message: For example, "zo" and "zō(zou, zoh, zow)" are quite different in their meaning and impression. "Shinzo" and "Shinzō(Shinzou, Shinzoh, Shinzow)" are the more different from each other; The pronunciation of "Shinzo" are indicating in Japanese language, "You'll be dead" or "I'll kill you"(in Japanese, "死んぞ", "死ぬぞ"), therefore, the title "Shinzo Abe" is a very malicious joke that means stealthily, "You must die now, Abe" or "WE wanna kill the Prime Minister of Japan". YOU are apparently blackmailing in the form that only Japanese can realize. On the other hand, "Shinzō(Shinzou, Shinzoh, Shinzow)" means Heart(:ja:心臓) in its pronunciation. So, "Shinzō Abe" is meaning secretly "Hearty Abe" and/or "Honest Abe". Obviously it's a good naming(at least for the Japanese, at least as a naming). And see e.g. Gerhard Schröder, François Mitterrand. Their diacritic marks are not omitted by YOU. Therefore, I have to ask YOU. Why have YOU persisted to prevail such a crazy anti-Japanese-racism mistakes all over the world, though YOU can very easily prevail correct spellings and exact pronunciations? In fact, the title "Shinzo Abe" in English Wikipedia have already spoiled too many things as well as other Japanese-related articles. --Rocky7 06:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why can YOU order people to misspell and misspeak [[Japanese name]]s? 

message: As I told above, as for the names of Japanese origin, esp. Japanese names, their correct pronunciation, in other words, their exact romanized names should be respected absolutely as they are, even though almost Japanese people are very generous and indifferent to such a stupid foreigners' problem. Anyway, Japanese alphabetical words with diacritic marks are already another Japanese language and, at the same time, the Western languages(of cource, including the English language). Do YOU think it is adequate to cut acute accent( ´ )s, grave accent( ` )s, circumflex( ˆ ) s, umlaut( ¨ )s, cedilla( ¸ )s, etc. from non-English names in the worldwide encyclopedia that is indeed obviously referenced all over the world? To begin with, romanization signs in question( Ī , ī , Ō , ō , Ū , ū , n- or n') are just diacritic marks as well as acute accent( ´ )s, grave accent( ` )s, circumflex( ˆ ) s, umlaut( ¨ )s, cedilla( ¸ )s, etc. All of them are generated by wise Westerns themselves. These very simple diacritic marks( Ī , ī , Ō , ō , Ū , ū , n- or n') are not phonetic ones such as IPA:[]. They are indicating only "Extend" and "Not liaison". For the phonetic signs, the words of Japanese origin should have IPA(International Phonetic Alphabet) in this English Wikipedia as well as other non-English words, because the pronunciations of English-language speakers deviate from ones of other Westerns. Even if all of the admins of English Wikipedia and Japanese Wikipedia are very very crazy anti-Japanese racists, I think, it seems very unfavorable at least in English Wikipedia to compel people to misspell Japanese names without allowing people to use diacritic marks, and to make people have party to such deliberate insults to Japanese people, because misspelling and/or misspeaking a name of a person, esp. VIP is considered (very, very) rude all over the world. Besides, it is very clear that this English Wikipedia can easily spell their non-English names with diacritic marks as they are. It is impossible for YOU to make excuse in this English Wikipedia. Japanese names belong first to Japanese people. Though when serching non-English names with diacritic marks, there may be some problems, but those problems are all resolved easily by redirects from the page of misspelled names to one of correct names. What kind of character-set mass media are using now and will be is aparently none of my business and none of Wikipedians'. Sooner or later they would realize what kind of character-set they should use as well as decent Wikipedians. Among Asian names, only Japanese names and Philippine names need the same pronunciation all over the world, because their Latin-alphabetical names are directly expressing their own language names, by those correct spelling, this is, by those pronunciations. In addition, all Japanese have been taught their romanized names as their Western-language names(of cource, including English-language names), because intelligent Westerns themselves found and determined that, when expressing the words of Japanese origin, esp. Japanese names, it is the best way for all Wesrtwern people to use romanized names. Even now, in spite of current anti-Japanese racism policy WP:MOS-JA, in case of "ō"(except "ō" before h), "oh" is already used as its alternative all over the world for poor Western mass media. See "Sadaharu Oh", "Shinichiro Ohta". Contrary to current anti-Japanese racism policy WP:MOS-JA, "Sadaharu O" is redirected to "Sadaharu Oh", and Shinichiro Ota haven't even exist(06:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For what it's worth, Oh is probably known as Oh because that's what he has written on the back of his uniform in romaji every night he goes out on the field, in Japan. Do you think it is less than racist to call those who agree with the current manual of style "Koreans" or "Chinese" as an insult? I think Oh (who is Chinese) might be offended. Meanwhile Japanese elementary schools will continue to tell students to spell 辻 "Tuzi" and 七 "siti"... talk about compelling people to misspell things intentionally. Dekimasuよ! 09:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What? "Oh (who is Chinese) might be offended"? Sadaharu Oh cannot be mad about the spelling of "Sadaharu Oh", because "Sadaharu Oh" is the alternative of his correctly spelled name, "Sadaharu Ou" or "Sadaharu Ō. Are YOU ALL Chinese? Sadaharu Oh is almost a Japanese. In fact, "Sadaharu Oh" is his Japanese name, not Chinese name. We except Chinese, Koreans and Zainichis could not call him a "Chinese". If Sadaharu Oh heard your calling him a "Chinese", he would be mad or embarassed. Sadaharu Oh is, indeed, the son of a Chinese father and a Japanese mother, but he was born and raised in Japan(Tōkyō). He cannot talk any language but Japanese one, therefore, it is very clear that Sadaharu Oh is practically one of Japanese people, though he has Taiwanese nationality because of the nationality law at the time. And :ja:王貞治 has been known in US only as "Sadaharu Oh" since the games with MBL teams in 1960s, because US mass media have been introducing him as "the Japanese homerun king Sadaharu Oh" since 1960s like this. Not only in Japan but everywhere, I don't know such a crazy elementary schools teaching students to spell 辻 "tuzi", not "Tsuzi" and 七 "siti", not "nana" or "shichi", See sa shi su se so and ta chi tsu te to. Almost all the Japanese input methods created by venders, however, enables "tuzi" to be changed to "辻", "siti" to "七", etc. in order to enable to input data at the highest-speed. These things never mean that "tuzi" is the correct spelling of "辻", and "siti" is that of "七". All Japanese are just skillfully using both correctly-spelled names and their omitted(misspelled) versions. Would I have to explain such a basic Japanease common sense here from now on? To begin with, why isn't here any pure Japanese Wikipedian except me? --Rocky7 03:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are plenty of other Japanese editors, but none of them are quite as loud as you.  As for romanization, I'd have you read the following: "Kunrei-shiki is sometimes known as the Monbushō system in English, because it is taught in the Monbushō-approved elementary school curriculum." from Kunrei-shiki Rōmaji.  Have a look at that article, then come back and give us your Japanese lesson. -- Exitmoose 03:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I can't agree with the current anti-Japanese racism policy. 

message: Left cahracters are superior than right ones.
*extending type
** Ā = Aa
** ā = aa
** Ē = Ee
** ē = ee
** Ī = Ii
*** e.g. Kaori Iida, Ii Naosuke
** ī = ii
*** e.g. Kawaii
** Ō = Oo, Ou, Oh(except "Ō" before "h"), Ow(except "Ō" before "[[[voel]]]")
*** e.g. Sadaharu Oh
** ō = oo, ou, oh(except "ō" before "h"), Ow(except "ō" before "[[[voel]]]")
*** e.g. Keiji Mutō, Keiji Mutou, Keiji Mutoh, Shinzō Abe, Shinzou Abe, Shintarō Ishihara, Shintarou Ishihara 
** Ū = Uu
*** Kyuushuu
** ū = uu
*** Honshuu
* non-liasoning type
** n- = n'
*** e.g. Jun-ichirō Koizumi, Jun'ichirō Koizumi, Jun-ichirou Koizumi, Jun'ichirou Koizumi 
--Rocky7 06:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternatives of Japanese romanized characters 

message: Are you the author of the tirades against that Wikipedia JA naming policy?
If so...
Haven't you seen our wonderful setup?
And, gosh darnit, why do the Japanese themselves "make those errors?" Huh?
See: http://www.kantei.go.jp/foreign/index-e.html WhisperToMe 06:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why are we feeding the fire? Dekimasuよ! 07:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm not reading all that. More than a dozen lines, let alone more than an entire screenful, of text without a paragraph is painful to read. Please, think of your audience if you want to be listened to. I might even agree with you, but you are so hard to read that I won't take teh time to find out. Rhialto 05:34, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: We aren't forcing misspellings on people

message: "We aren't forcing misspellings on people." Sure? I can't think so, unfortunately. "Trirades"? Not "tirades". I have still had a lot of things to protest against current confusing WP:MJ, unfortunately. YOUR "wonderful setup"? Frankly speaking, I can't think so, unfortunately. Sorry, but I will have to say the same thing sooner or later. I think there are many policies to be improved in WP:MJ. Please notice them by yourself, if YOU can. Only this hard work tired me out. Anyone, please help me. Please understand me profoundly. There seems neither decent pure Japanese Wikipedians nor wise pure Westerns here. "Huh?"? Please calm down. If you got angry, forgive me. But not "errors". They are just imitating. You haven't understand this discussion enough yet. English language belongs to Japanese people? Such a crazy thought any Japanese can't have. But as for YOUR convention prevailing the misspellled Japanese names, I think Japanese people have the right to say, "YOU are too rough. Please spell our name correctly". Even me, just being forced to use the omitted version of shinzō Abe in order to adjust to his omitted(misspelled) version in all of the documents of US government and all of the articles of Western media(including this English Wikipedia). "Shinzō Abe" has been called as "Shinzo Abe" for a long time by English Wikipedia and US government before he became the Prime Minister of Japan. About this problem, I sent a simple email to THE WHITE HOUSE today. See below. Such a confusing problem occurs because YOU have already penetrated "Shinzo Abe" all over the world esp. by the title of the article of English Wikipedia, and because YOU have already advertised "Shinzō Abe" as if it were only phonetic alphabet esp. by the first paragragh of the article of English Wikipedia, though it is his true Western name. Almost all Japanese, including "Shinzō Abe", are not living in English-language world. So, probably, even he cannot help using the omitted version of his true name esp. for English-language speakers, because he himself is forced to understand that he is already known as "Shinzo Abe", neither as "Shinzō Abe" nor as "shinzou Abe", all over the world. Therefore, he and his fellows didn't even add "u" after "Shinzo". He and his fellows didn't even offer its alternative. This means, they have already given up to resolve this very HUGE but very trivial problem, and they are just following YOUR title and the omitted(misspelled) version in the documents of US government and the articles of Western mass media. After all, Shinzō Abe himself and his fellows dared to use omitted(misspelled) version with consideration. Even US government ordinally use the mispelled versions such as Junichiro Koizumi, Shinzo Abe, Taro Aso, probably influenced by this English Wikipedia. Strange to say, even the capable bureaucrats of Japanese government have been using the articles of English Wikipedia as their inside documents. They have been watching YOUR behaviors. It's a true story. YOU don't realize Japanese modesty at all. Japanese culture and nationality are quite passive and quite different from other countries', esp. Korean, Chinese. When Japanese themselves use non-diacritic versions, they use them only as non-diacritic versions with some consideration, never as true versions, because they and all other Japanese know their true names with other methods(such as kanji, katakana, hiragana) or common sense(e.g. Kyoto, Tokyo, Osaka). In addition, there are many cases that it is very troublesome to put diacritic marks from the keyboard, different from handwriting. Moreover, Japanese themselves are very fond of using abbreviations and the like. So, I admit Japanese themselves have some responsibility, but, I, one of them, already achieved accountability concerning this troublesome problem. This problem appears to be a complicated problem from the Japanese side, but, on YOUR side and US government's side, it is very simple problem, because this is a question which name is a true Japanese name YOU should respect. Apparently, YOU, in other words, the titles of the articles of English Wikipedia and the documents of the White House, have the most important keys. Omitted versions are permanetly omitted ones, however often they are used as if they were true names of Japanese people. In this point, they are very similar to nicknames, this is, automatically generated nicknames. Do YOU think nicknames and the like should be used as the titles of the articles of an encyclopedia? I don't think so. Thank you. --Rocky7 03:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not reading all that. More than a dozen lines, let alone more than an entire screenful, of text without a paragraph is painful to read. Please, think of your audience if you want to be listened to. I might even agree with you, but you are so hard to read that I won't take teh time to find out. Rhialto 05:34, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sure? 

message: I want to say, "Please stop personal attack by saying "personal attack"". If there is a person who call such a logical and fair discussion "personal attack", any persons who have the quite different opinions from each other cannot talk anything. Go away from the irrelevent problem such as personal attack saying "personal attack", at once. The biggest problem of the original discussion is that English language is the fartherest one from Latin language among Western ones. But it can't be helped. The second biggest problem is that: "Why can't YOU use the diacritic marks of Latin language in the title of Japanese names?" I just have to think, "What kind of people can think such a rude policy? YOU must be neither pure Westerns nor pure Japanese." This is neither "racism discrimination" nor "personal attack", because YOU may be ethnic Japanese who are crazily eager to adapt to all of the conventions in the English language's world, and because this is only a fair logic like comparative linguistics and comparative cultural studies. I didn't attack anyone personally. I just criticize the policy very similar to anti-Japanese racism. Anyway, judging from Google"Shinzo Abe""Junichiro Koizumi", the titles of the articles of English Wikipedia have the most important keys. (My talk page is not appropriate place for the discussion of Japanese names and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). I have to copy and paste this section to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles).) --Rocky7 03:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  My serious discussion cannot be "personal attack".