Talk:Vilnius

message: Is this some kind of political correctness? The Lithuanian wikipedia calls both these periods occupations. The Russian empire took hold of Lithuania by force and propaganda and after the battle of Warsaw in 1920 Poland did exactly the same thing. So why the light terms? These where occupations, nothing less!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.205.150.7 (talk) 19:30, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "German Occupation" versus "In Poland" and "In Russia"

message: It is time to improve this article. M.K. 23:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, Media? V. Tower; LRT other stations what else? BTW, I think we need an image of Vilnius in infobox as Paris, Berlin M.K. 10:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I hope you will recover soon. Some Šližikai could help or šimtas gramų :) Btw, good suggestion to split religion into separate sections. M.K. 16:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know about the Šližikai, they might make her sleep, the šimtas gramų might be better. Dr. Dan 18:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dose calibration has been performed by Lithuanian relatives, with the determination that 50 grams makes the Lithuanian language flow more freely, 100 grams induces nesamone. No analagous data with regard to English-language production. Novickas 18:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol, I must have spent too much time in the East under communism, because 50 grams would only "prime the pump". Dr. Dan 19:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Not at the moment. It's easy to fix, just that where to put the map and COA? You know, to avoid image clutter. Renata 18:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just made some sketch much info needed also some more lined to. M.K. 23:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, no, no :) It mixes two different things: municipality with Vilnius. Vilnius as such has no political power. Zuokas is mayor of municipality, not Vilnius. Vilnius also has no area defined: only municipality. I guess I need to write a nice section on the whole city/city municipality mess... Renata 02:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes yes it is just a sketch :) I had to fill lines with something to avoid empty spaces, plus I was never good in municipality affairs. M.K. 10:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Further article development

message: Image:Neris river in Vilnius.jpg
Image:Vilnius.JPG|for infobox? 
Image:Vilnius ncc.jpg
Image:Synagogue of Vilnius.jpg|Synagogue
Image:Vilnius view.jpg
Image:Utsikt over vilnius tv-torn.jpg
Image:Neris River.Vilnius.jpg
Image:Vilnius.Gedimino prospektas.jpg
Image:Snipiskes.jpg
Image:Vilnius Castle Hill.jpg
Image:Vilnius Akropolis.jpg
they seem not as good as other alternatives, especially in the terms of colour reproduction (see Vilnius Old  Town, Šnipiškės, Antakalnis, Žirmūnai etc.) Iulius 10:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: yup, your images are the best, please produce more! M.K. 12:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: so there they are Iulius 12:53, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Superb castle hill shot!!!!! BTW, do you participating in miestai.net? M.K. 12:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No. More than that :D Iulius 13:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  So this means your are one of masterminds of miestai.net :) M.K. 18:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No I am not related to it in any way.Iulius 18:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  A, I see. M.K. 17:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: We have winter now in Vilnius, besides it is raining... Having in mind the impressive focal length such image requires, the task seems too impossible. Iulius 10:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Images which will be used

message: A list of sites for this article (Novickas 17:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List of good info sites

message: This comes up so often... And it needs to be addressed now. For a long time I have insisted that city and city municipality articles would be two different things. However, I start doubting it's usefulness because of the confusion and the fact that in reality those two are not that different. I don't really know how to properly explain the difference... So, what do ya think? Should Abc city municipality simply redirect to Abc? LT Wikipedia did just that. Renata 10:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with this proposal, at least with regard to Vilnius; if the only difference between the two is the town of Grigiškės, population 11,000 (about 2% of the total), and "a few rural areas", this discrepancy could be noted in the Geography section. Novickas 17:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I really do not know that is better in this situation. I also thinking, maybe we need some sort of General sandbox in WP:LITH, there we can discuss and have a article sketch instead experimenting on real article? The same general sandbox we can use for other articles when big contributor team is involved.  M.K. 17:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sandbox sounds like a good idea. But don't know enough about them to create it. Novickas 17:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My problem with it, is that it's too close to the lead. The importance of Vilnius being the historical and present capital of Lithuania is paramount. Its other functions can be explained in detail, lower down in the article. Or if it's not too much trouble to do so, in seperate articles. In any case, it's much better now than it was previously. Dr. Dan 18:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Question: [[Vilnius]] vs [[Vilnius city municipality]]

message: Shouldn't the historical names of the city be in the article itself?--Hhielscher 01:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's perfectly acceptable - see also WP:NCGN which supports such solution.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  00:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Those Polish editors insisting upon this "academic necessity" can lead the lead the way by adding all the non-Polish toponyms to Polish cities and towns on English WP. Dr. Dan 13:55, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We already did it years ago, back in the times where there were only two Lithuanians in our wiki community (AFAIK only Linas and Linas Lituanus, I might be wrong on this one though). Check Talk:Gdansk archives to see the details. //Halibutt 13:18, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Hello, the inclusion of selective name made reverts dues to several reasons among other and "this should go first", this "should be included also despite that it is not used in en". Besides there was argument about this and the contributors made clear that such link to alternative names  is good solution Sadly they already forgot this. Besides you should look to Warsawa and Cracow articles, they do not have even this link... M.K. 10:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Indeed. And bet you a case of wiki-beer you will not see a revert war over such sections, nor mega-long discussions about why they are bad :) -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical Names 

message: The statement is false - Bathory didn't establish any Vilnius University but Almae Academia et Universitas Vilnensis Societatis Jesu. And he was a king in the Kingdom and a prince in the Duchy, as written in Vilnius University. Xx236 09:33, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The establishment of Vilnius University by the King Stephen Bathory in 1579 

message: There are two articles and two discussions. What is the idea of this double-job?Xx236 12:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Editing in non-main space is very bad for two reasons. First, very few editors will know about it and I have seen many such projects stalled  and forgotten for years in various non-mainspaces, wasting whatever effort the originators put into it. Second, if such a project goes on, it will either waste efforts of most editors who happily edit the mainspace article, not knowing about the project, or at the very least will require a merger.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The article should be edited in the workshop until it is ready for release. 

message: # Source please.
# Many educated Lithuanians left the city to take posts in Lithuania. Strange lack of knowledge.Xx236 13:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic Lithunians were being forced to leave the city and the use Lithuanian language was banned in public 

message: Which city has more ethnic Lithuanians - Vilnius or Kaunas?Xx236 13:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The number of ethnic Lithuanians 

message: I removed the highly questionable: 
Poles alleged that ethnic Lithuanians constituted only a small minority, and that Polish speaking Lithuanians and Lithuanian Jews still made up a majority of the population of the city.
The definition of ethnicity of the population was then - and apparently still is, at least here - a matter of a controversy. Poland claimed tho Polish-speakers to simply be Poles, Lithuania claimed them to be Lithuanians who temporarily lost their original language.  The latter, quite controversial thesis was apparently repeated in the text above. Contrary to the underlying suggestion were the Lithuanian Jews (Litvaks) using Lithuanian - it was rather Yiddish, Russian or Polish. 
My proposition is to use more neutral terms "polish (or Yiddish) speakers" without trying the highly controversial definition of the underlying ethnicity. --Arts2 08:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest that you read or reread Unton Sinclair's The Jungle for a better understanding of the issue. Even though the work is "fiction", you'll get a feel of how wrong you are about ethnicities and linguistics within the first chapter. Please remember that these people were not Szlachta either. Dr. Dan 20:30, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic composition ca 1920 

message: Poles - 18.7% Vilnius or 19.4% Vilnius city municipality? Xx236 (talk) 15:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic composition now 

message: Xx236 (talk) 14:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This place is for discussion 

message: It used to be a militsia school. The comment, if true, would be useful rasther in the article about the university or in a historical one.Xx236 (talk) 10:11, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The former Soviet NKVD school 

message: The phrase says that some foreigners came to the city called Vilnius and imposed their exotic name Wilno. Xx236 (talk) 08:40, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It really did happen exactly this way. Since 14th century there are known Russian and German quarters in the Lituanian city, and no mention of Polish quarter. Furthermore - Lithuanian speaking territory was not only around Vilnius city, but also a big part of modern Western Belarus. The situation changed abruptly in 19th century, during forced Russification and Polonization. Or would you imply that Gediminas was living in city Wilno? --Lokyz (talk) 11:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Please see my comments here regarding place names. The most appropriate solution for Baltic States articles is to also reflect English usage names readers will run across in English language scholarship. Often those historical names, based on alternate names in non-native language, continue to be used into the twentieth centuryafter independencein scholarly sources. I don't believe that creating a place name smorgasbord in the article lead is the appropriate editorial solution. There is already a section discussing place names in other languages. Thank you. VЄСRUМВА  ♪  14:28, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a disputed matter. We can't erase the whole hertage of a place because it offends current feelings. The Wilno you mentioned is athe name in Plish, as well as Vilno/Vilna is in Russia/Belarusian. The reader must be informed in the history of the place, as it is done in many other East-European cities. Therefore, it is needed to present Polisn, Russian and Yiddish name in leading.--Mikej007 (talk) 15:16, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There should be no special rights here for any group in this Wikipedia. All cities with big minorities and big population transfers should be described in the same way, see Wrocław. Xx236 (talk) 07:02, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wilno being the name of Vilnius in Polish 

message: I understand the population of Vilnius has declined, due mainly to out-migration, since independence. Perhaps a Lithuanian editor could supply statistics on this?  Sca (talk) 19:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Population

message: According to http://www.delfi.lt/ 60% of Vilnius inhabitants are ethnic Lithuanians. It's allegedly the highest result in the history of the city.Xx236 (talk) 14:43, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Since when? Since establishment or since complete Polonization in 19th century? --Lokyz (talk) 09:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Do you ?--Lokyz (talk) 11:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:   Lithuanians moved from all Lithuanian provinces to Vilnius  - 

message: Is it a copyright violation, the legend part or is it considered as DP ? 'cause it's exactly the same thing as the ref. Zil (talk) 12:26, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyvio ? 

message: Time to merge the Wikipedia:WikiProject Lithuania/General sandbox fork here. Please see my comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lithuania/General sandbox#Time to merge this mess. But I will say this: the draft infobox looks prettier :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  00:23, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleaning up the old draft mess 

message: Please be aware that you're way way way past violating 3RR .radek (talk) 20:11, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anon 78.60.103.71  

message: By now it's pretty obvious that Vilnius became a multi-cultural city, particularly after the Partitions of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Nonsense like "During the early 20th century, the Lithuanian-speaking population of Vilnius constituted only a small minority, with Polish, Yiddish, and Belarusian speakers comprising the majority of the city's population", referenced or not, it is pure blather and nonsense. Is this to say that the Polish speakers in Vilnius could not speak Russian? Or that the Yiddish speakers in Vilnius could not speak Polish or Lithuanian? Somehow this myth bordering on the Big Lie, seems to give great comfort to those who would like to believe it, maybe believe it, but down deep inside, know it to only be wishful thinking. Once again, I'll reiterate the fact that when the Polish Army occupied Vilnius, in April 1919, the head of the Polish army, Józef Piłsudski (himself of Lithuanian ethnicity), issued a proclamation bilingually in Polish and Lithuanian to the inhabitants of the city. Perhaps he was addressing the Yiddish speaking population, who had lived there for centuries, and possibly were more proficient in Russian than Polish, and more fluent in Lithuanian than in Polish. We are told that many German speaking inhabitants, in Silesia were in fact Polish. Many of the same editors are unable to concede that many Polish speaking inhabitants, in Vilnius, were in fact Lithuanian and bilingual or trilingual. That's too bad. Dr. Dan (talk) 22:14, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Would any RS confirm the theory that the Polish, Yiddish, and Belarusian speakers did not constitute the majority of the town's population in the early 20th century (until WW2 of course) ? --Lysytalk 08:04, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Time will tell. However, I certainly hope no one tries to palm off Sunday morning newspaper articles also known  as tygodniks (in Polish) as such, as is too often the case. And btw, I'm glad that Lysy refers to this nonsense as a "theory." Dr. Dan (talk) 20:02, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Dr Dan, whatever you are writing are speculations, good for a biased, pro-Lithuanian blog. All speculations and questions without answers. On a personal note, my late uncle was born in Moscow, and together with his mother, he settled in Wilno some time in the early 1920s, when he was a child. In the 1930s, he attended a high school there, and as he told me, he never heard Lithuanian language in Wilno, until 1939, when the city was handed over to the Lithuanians by the Soviets and Lithuanian army occupied it. Tymek (talk) 22:48, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Tymek, for  your very nice story, but I still don't understand why Pilsudski decided to issue his proclamation in Vilnius bilingually, in 1919. Since no one could speak or understand Lithuanian in Vilnius it seems like a waste of ink and time. Of course since Pilsudski was Lithuanian, it may have simply been nationalistic bias on his part. Too bad your uncle has passed away, so it's impossible to ask him if as a high school student, he would recognize Lithuanian from Finnish, Hungarian, or Estonian. Dr. Dan (talk) 02:42, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Since as you say, you do not understand why Piłsudski issued his proclamation in Vilnius bilingually, please do not speculate or attempt to draw conclusions, as they could be false, and certainly an OR. --Lysytalk 08:39, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry Lysy, but I think I'm entitled to draw conclusions, as they could be true. Especially when instead of getting an answer, I get anecdotes about people's late uncles and their high school experiences. If no one could speak or understand Lithuanian in Vilnius, issuing the proclamation there bilingually in 1919 seems rather ludricous. But what I really think is even more ludricrous is the assertion is that no one could speak or understand Lithuanian in Vilnius until 1939. Dr. Dan (talk) 17:56, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You are certainly entitled to draw conclusions and speculate, but you are NOT entitled to have these speculations or "conclusions" reproduced in Wikipedia articles, unless you can find reliable sources which say the same thing.radek (talk) 19:04, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

text: He published the proclamation in Lithuanian too because it was a political matter between Poland and Lithuania that both calimed the city and the area. The Lithuanians calimed that they have the right to start multi-ethnical state as well as the Polish and by that calims made the illusion that there Wilno is a bi-lingual city. In fact, the city and the region itself had only small Lithuanian minority, while Poles spoke Polish, Belarusians spoke Belarusian/Russian/Polish and Jews Yiddish/Russian/Polish but almost never Lithuanian. I say this from personal knowledge and research, because I am descendamt of Wilno Jewish family, and I know that my granparents and all their relatives and other members of the community spoke Yiddish and mostly Polish, thou many of them could speak Russian too (mainly the ones who came from the southern part of the region (today's West Belarus). Saying that Wilno was a Lithanian city is reverting history and Lithuanian nationalism. Btw, in 1939, the Soviets intended to make Wilno the new capital of Belarus claiming that it is part of the Polish/Jewish/Belarusian West Belarus and the composition of its inhabitants is very similar to Hrodna, Navharadak or Maladziechna regions. It was transferred to Lithuania only after a month for political reasons (a step towarts annexation to the Soviet Union).--Mikej007 (talk) 08:23, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a comment Lithuanians calimed that they have the right to start is a rather dubious statement, as is I say this from personal knowledge and research that is outright WP:OR by the letter.--Lokyz (talk) 13:13, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Lokyz, this is the talk page. And in fact it's less OR than Dan's "speculations".radek (talk) 13:39, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me remind you an advice given by Lysy I advise to discuss the article and not other editors. Thank you for understanding.--Lokyz (talk) 14:01, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Lokyz, for Lithuanians claimed that they have the right to start I address you to  and to Central Lithuania. For the OR, this IS the talk page and again if Dan can claim that someone in Wilno can't tell Lithuanian from Estonian (laughable - everyone in that region can do that easily), I can claim my personal experience too as an addition to the discussion here. In fact, it is written and proven many times that ethnic Lithuanians constituting a small fraction of the total population in Central Lithuania and Wilno and my OR is only an addition to that.--Mikej007 (talk) 14:02, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you address me I to have my suggestions. Hereby I do add my suggestions - read Pilsudsky's diary, or Mykolas Riomeris diary. They're published. Makes some things too obvious. Happy reading.--Lokyz (talk) 14:26, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, I am sure I'll enjoy reading, especially Michał Römer. I think we went too far with personal disputes. I think we should minimize personal bias as much as we can and try to ger as close to facts and the facts are that Wilno in 1920 had only a small fraction of Lithuanian speakers. The Pilsudski proclamation was written in Lithuanian too, because he wanted it to be read by pro-Lithuania community and by the Lithuanian authorities which de-jure ruled the city. It doesn't mean anything about the spoken languages in the city in 1920.--Mikej007 (talk) 14:52, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Who is a Lithuanian? One who believes in God, and has a trust in Statute. It's the memo before partitions Also, I can promise - after reading Mykolas Riomeris you'll be surprised.--Lokyz (talk) 15:22, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

text: Mikej007, I was very busy with work and couldn't get back to you earlier. I wanted to thank you for your nice story, too. Just as I thanked Tymek for his. As for your explanation as to why Pilsudski issued the Proclamation bilingually.... "He published the proclamation in Lithuanian too because it was a political matter between Poland and Lithuania that both calimed the city and the area..." That at least makes an attempt to explain it. But does it? As for your personal family story, thanks..." I say this from personal knowledge and research, because I am descendamt of Wilno Jewish family, and I know that my granparents and all their relatives and other members of the community spoke Yiddish and mostly Polish, thou many of them could speak Russian too..." That should settle the question? I'm curious if either of your grandparents were university educated, and when they left Vilnius. Thanks. Dr. Dan (talk) 16:22, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Dr., thanks for your answer. My grandfather had a degree in economics from the Stefan Batory University taught exclusively in Polish. After graduation, he returned in his native city of Smarhon, until 1941 and then came back there in 1945. He and my grandmother, who is a Wilno native both remembered the Soviet invasion, the Belarus-Lithuania dispute in September-October 1939 and the Lithuanization measures. Actually, my grandfather's degree saved him from deportation to Kazakhstan, because he was considered a "needed professional". Of course, that doesn't prove nothing and we can't base on this Wiki articles, but it can be an argument about the common languages of the city in 1920-1939.--Mikej007 (talk) 17:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Once again Mike, thanks for responding. You're right that your story, like Tymek's, proves nothing. Which is why I didn't bother to mention the story of a very famous furrier, who lived in Vilnius and had a well known business during the Polish occupation of the city, and was a patient of my father's (in the U.S.A.). A Litvak, he was a polyglot and spoke Lithuanian fluently, as did his wife. I suppose one could say that it would be helpful, for purposes of business, to speak as many languages as possible in a multi-cultural city (even a phantom language that no one could speak or understand). A frequent guest at our dinner table, the conversation was held in Lithuanian, even though all of the older people present could speak, Russian, Polish, and English. A nice story? I think so, but it's meaningless to the point under discussion. Just the same, I do prefer hearing stories more than telling them. Regrettably it appears that your grandfather is no longer living (your use of the past tense). I'm curious, since he was a University student, if he ever discussed the Ghetto benches or ONR with you? Dr. Dan (talk) 02:10, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh I'm "sure" he did:).... but I'm not sure what the Ghetto Benches have to do with the above discussion. Is this a sneaky attempt to change the subject and move to the more "comfortable" area such as "terrible" Polish pre war anti-Semitism? :)--Jacurek (talk) 02:31, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know, Ghetto benches were never introduced in Stefan Batory University. As for ONR, never heard of it, till now. Anyway, your story is not better than mine. I don't deny that the Lithuanian language was spoken in Wilno region as a 2nd or 3rd language, but it rather was a native language of a small minority of the population. We can't deny that native Lithuanian speakers were outnumbered by Polish, Yiddish and Belarusian native speakers.--Mikej007 (talk) 02:24, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

text: Dr. Dan. I've never heard of the Vilna offensive anti-semitic deeds. Maybe it because my grandparents were babies at the time. Nevertheless, it has nothing to do with the subject we're talking about now, or with the fact that even mentioning Polish names in Lithuania-related articles is considered almost a crime. Btw, I don't think that Lithuanian antisemitism was "better" than Polish, but it's just my opinion--Mikej007 (talk) 04:00, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So Dr.Dan..shall we go back to the original subject of this discussion or we are already switched the subject to the Polish anti-Semitism, Vilnius offensive, Pinks massacre and my "mysterious" appearance on this talk page?--Jacurek (talk) 04:27, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, Jacurek, let's go back to the original subject. I'd love to hear your spin on why the Lithuanian dictator of Poland decided to issue the bi-lingual Proclamation to the inhabitants of the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania in Lithuanian, in a city where only a tiny minority could speak or understand the language. Any stories from grandparents and uncles are also welcome. And Mike, you don't need to get all of your information from your grandparents either. Thanks to the computer age, you're only a few clicks away from what happened in Vilnius in April 1919. That incident, like the Pinsk massacre, was a crime, not ..."the fact that even mentioning Polish names in Lithuania-related articles is considered almost a crime". Dr. Dan (talk) 06:14, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

text: Or perhaps, before we go back to the original subject, we could mention Lithuanian Security Police, a unit of Lithuanian murderers, which was very active in the city of Wilno. Another click, and we can find information about other crimes, such as Kaunas pogrom. Any comments Dr Dan, since you introduced antisemitism to the discussion? Tymek (talk) 19:26, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Tymek, getting back to the original subject seems to be rather difficult. Either Pilsudski was an idiot (if only 1% or 2% of Vilnius' population could speak Lithuanian) or there were enough Lithuanian speakers in Vilnius to make it worthwhile to issue his proclamation bilingually. Regarding anti-Semitism, I agree with Mikej007, ..." I don't think that Lithuanian antisemitism was "better" than Polish, but it's just my opinion...", it simply was greater and more wide spread in Poland. And please remember that after Mike described his grandfather's and family's situation (especially as a university student), I was curious if the Ghetto benches affected him. Also what knowledge might have been conveyed to him regarding the other matters. Btw, I still haven't heard an opinion from you or Jacurek on the Pilsudski proclamation. Dr. Dan (talk) 17:08, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

text: Am I, or anybody else, obliged to present to you my opinion on the proclamation? If you are so curious about it, check answers.com, perhaps they will help you. Or perhaps spend a few dollars and buy a book. I have been feeding a troll for long enough, and I hope other users will share my opinion and end this hopeless exchange. Tymek (talk) 17:40, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Tymek even if you could, you are not obliged to present anything to anyone. You are obliged, however, not to engage in in violation of the WP:PA policy on these talk pages. And once again thanks for sharing your story about your uncle emigrating from Moscow to Vilnius and never hearing Lithuanian spoken when he was in high school. Dr. Dan (talk) 17:55, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh...Dan, Dan...just let it go...I don't even read your post in full anymore because it is the same thing over and over and over...Look, ALL cities have their alternative names in other languages in their leads. This is already a rule and standard on Wikipiedia. Lithuanian cities can't be exception because you, Lokyz and MK don't like it. I don't want to hear about Lithuania being independent for only 50 years, Pilsudski, his declaration, him being and idiot, Poles, Jews, Chinese...I'm tired of hearing that and I'm tired of this endless conversation on the subject. Let's retire and switch our attention to something else. Shall we?--Jacurek (talk) 18:45, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Chinese? Dr. Dan (talk) 18:59, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You can't help it, can you? :):):)--Jacurek (talk) 19:36, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Evidently neither can you. Btw, I hardly consider Pilsudski and (sic) idiot. Quite the contrary. Nor do I consider Jogaila and the other Jagiellons to be ones either. Beck and  Rydz-Smigly, and Poniatowski can be further discussed on this point, if you care to do so, at their appropriate venues. Dr. Dan (talk) 23:45, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Languages in the beginning of 20th century 

message: I'ask to explain which one of "The war has irrevocably altered the town" is over the verge of the WP:WEASEL. Besides it was unreferenced.--Lokyz (talk) 22:23, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The population was practically completely replaced. --Lysytalk 11:31, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The question was about wording: "irrevocably altering" does not say a word about population, it supposes something like total annihilation.--Lokyz (talk) 13:06, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree we should explain it clearly that what was before WWII a major Polish-Jewish cultural metropolis became, after the war, a newly Lithuanizied town with very little Polish and even less Jewish presense (I wonder of we can talk of a Lithuanian colony...? In the same sense that Regained Territories can be seen as a Polish colony, of course :>). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  19:29, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Strange enough, sources of the middle 19th century say that majority of the population in the region was Lithuanian. And speaking about colonization, one should not forget 200 thousand Polish colonists brought in to the Vilnius region during Polish occupation in 20th century.--Lokyz (talk) 15:41, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

text: 200,000 Poles? Where did you get it from? Interbellum Poland was a desperately poor country, and it simply could not afford such a transfer of people. According to the official estimates, in Volhynia there were about 13,000 osadniks, in the area of Wilno there were perhaps no more than 5,000. Tymek (talk) 16:12, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:WEASEL]]

message: No other population transfer is described this way in this Wikipedia. POV.Xx236 (talk) 08:14, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Compelled to relocate 

message: Hey user:Mikej007 could you fix that also? --Lokyz (talk) 12:51, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Parity principle? If the Yiddish name is accoding the WP:Place policy, you are welcomed to fix that? It's not WP:POINT.--Mikej007 (talk) 13:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, explain what did you mean, I cannot understand your message. I did just try to ask for your help to provide alternative names to the cities in Poland, according to the WP:Place policy, that is the same for all cities around the world. And if it does not work in Poland, why should it work in Lithuania?--Lokyz (talk) 13:39, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It should work for everywhere as  and .--Mikej007 (talk) 22:47, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope you'll add alternative names to the cities of Poland soon. Am I correct?--Lokyz (talk) 23:02, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You are welcomed to do that for any city, anywhere, as long as in according to WP:Place policy. If I see such a thing - I'll  do that for Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Belarus and Ukraine and I hope you'll contribute to that too.--Mikej007 (talk) 00:06, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

text: Perhaps we can keep this conversation all in one place. :-) VЄСRUМВА  ♪  03:49, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Parity principle 

message: Per WP:Lead
*Separate section usage
Alternatively, if there are more than two alternative names, these names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section; it is recommended that this be done if there are at least three alternate names, or there is something notable about the names themselves. Once such a section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line. As an exception, a local official name different from a widely accepted English name should be retained in the lead "(Foreign language: Local name; other names exist)". Dr. Dan (talk) 14:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: According to what you wrote, Wilno and Vilne belong to the lead. Add to that 10%+minority rule and we get the alternative names in the lead. Another thing - there is a mediation going on the issue. Please do not change the lead until it is resolved. That laead eas acepted and stable for more than a month and if you'll keep reverting, I'll have to ask for protection for this article too.--Mikej007 (talk) 09:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It was stable for year or so before you introduce changes without any discussion and consensus. M.K. (talk) 09:41, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't mean that it's right and according to WP:PLACE and WP:LEAD guidelines. In this case both 10% and minority rules are enforced.--Mikej007 (talk) 08:01, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please re-read the guideline again, specifically pertaining to the lead (it's right above), not ones that you prefer to implement. And Mike, please note that the guideline clearly states..."Once such a section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line." It seems to work very nicely at Kiev. Thanks Dr. Dan (talk) 16:17, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia Guidelines 

message: ABC News uncovered the details of a secret prison outside of Vilnius in Antavilis. I'm not sure if Antavilis is geopolitically part of Vilnius, so I'm just posting it on the talk page in case other editors think it is noteworthy. Satellite View here? Other reports state "President Grybauskaite has insisted that the claims be properly investigated." Jeff Carr (talk) 18:40, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  CIA Secret Prison in Antavilis 

message: A redirect to the village in Ontario here would be comparable to redirecting Paris, Illinois to Paris, or Warsaw, Illinois to Warsaw. Dr. Dan (talk) 02:45, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Redirect to [[Wilno, Ontario]] 

message: Concerning Vilnius, "also known by several other  names" is applicable to hundreds, if not more, of cities with articles  on Wikipedia. Are we splitting hairs here, or this there some unique  purpose to your edit? Thought I'd ask you on your talk page rather than  simply reverting your edit back to mine. Thanks, Dr. Dan (talk) 02:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a fact  that it is known by other names to English speakers. No need to change  that.--Mikej007 (talk) 18:16, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you  view the comparable entry at the Warsaw article in relation to the  matter? Dr. Dan (talk) 02:05, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't  really care about it. Change it and deal with the people that do care  about it. The things aren't connected and I won't fall again to  meaningless debates and questions. as for Vilnius, it is known by several other names to English  readers.--Mikej007 (talk) 16:28, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "I don't  really care about it. Change it and deal with the people that do care about it." That's what I've done. Perhaps the third time will be a charm. And Mike, since you don't "really" care about it, let those others you say care about it make their case. Dr. Dan (talk) 00:36, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Dan. stop those useless debates. I don't care about Warsaw, I care what's written here and that's why I insist on the right expression. The city is knpwn to English speakers by othr names, this is it.--Mikej007 (talk) 07:24, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a native speaker of English and I have certainly never heard native speakers use any name other than Vilnius. However, as this is Wikipedia, it doesn't matter what we know: it matters what the WP:RS say. Mike, if you have some sources saying that English speakers use names other than Vilnius, let's see those. Otherwise we simply can not include the statement. Varsovian (talk) 23:27, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Tempest in a  Teapot?

message: I'm under the impression that Vilnius is currently the commonly used name for the city by Germans in the German language. As in the case of Russian, an earlier version of the name was used, "Вильна", but Вильнюс/Vilnius is now used. The antiquated German name Wilna has been replaced with Vilnius. Like the current English name Vilnius. So then in response to user: Halibutt's edit , I would like to know if Poland has adhered to the "conventions" he referred to? ..."Dan, train companies and airports use international names, there's a convention for that". Do the train stations and airport schedules in Poland use Vilnius? Dr. Dan (talk) 23:07, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Halibutt, thank you for the trouble of explaining  the position of the Polish railway system vis a vis Vilnius with this link. The link worked, btw. Getting back to the commonly used name for the city of Vilnius in the German language, I do believe it is now Vilnius, and no longer Wilna. They use "Vilnius", not Wilna and "Tallinn", not Reval. Or do you believe that like Cracow, (now Kraków, in English), antiquated versions need not be employed for the sake of consistency? Dr. Dan (talk) 04:21, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps some German Wikipedians or others familiar with the German language can help out with the question as to whether Wilna or Vilnius is the current name used for the city in German. Dr. Dan (talk) 07:35, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: So on Deutsche Bahn's website, inputting Wilna as a destination is recognised but then converted to Vilnius in the results.  This might indicate that Vilnius is now more common - but unfortunately it does the same with Prag, converting it to Praha which is certainly not common usage in German.  ÖBB's planner works similarly.  Lufthansa fly to Prag but to Vilnius on their German-language site, as do Austrian Airlines (who strangely fly to Poznan, Katowice, Wroclaw, Krakau and Warschau - so I have no idea what criteria they are using regarding exonyms.)   I think de.wiki represents German usage quite accurately, and they use Prag but Vilnius.  Overall, I think there's fair evidence for a preference for Vilnius now - but Wilna is still used often enough that it is included in current-day transport databases for recognition purposes. Knepflerle (talk) 13:35, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

text: (PS and Wilna is indeed often enough used that de.wiki has had the occasional discussion or twenty as to which to use) Knepflerle (talk) 13:55, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: German

message: Several links are dead, which makes the article less reliable than it used to be.Xx236 (talk) 12:41, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Several links are dead 

message: ... most of the predominantly Polish and Jewish population was either exterminated during the German occupation, or deported to Siberia during the first Soviet occupation.
According to what I've read, it was the Jewish residents of Vilnius (and Lithuania) — numbering 200,000 or more — who were "exterminated" during the Nazi German occupation. (And why don't we just say "murdered"?) Someone more knowledgeable than I could supply more detail as to what happened to the Polish residents of the city, who were drastically reduced in number after the Soviet reconquest in 1944, but I don't believe "exterminated." Ethnic Poles remain a significant minority in Vilnius to this day.
Sca (talk) 13:21, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The exact number of ethnic Poles murdered at Ponary is unknown, (noone cared to study the problem academically) - probably several thousands. Only very recently Lithuanian authorities started to discuss the Ponary crime. "Ethnic Poles remain a significant minority" around Vilnius rather than inside. Xx236 (talk) 13:16, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: "Exterminated"

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Vilnius. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: From Suwałki Agreement: However, Piotr Łossowski argued that such summaries are inadequate and misleading.
Xx236 (talk) 12:21, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suwałki Agreement - only Lithuanian POV here 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_of_Occupations_and_Freedom_Fights  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.225.81.78 (talk) 17:16, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Museum of Genocide Victims is now Museum of Occupations and Freedom Fights 

message: Let's talk because edit war will led nowhere and administrators will have to step in.
Your noted dubious lines:
1) "More distant neighbourhoods (e.g., Lazdynai, Karoliniškės, Viršuliškės, Šeškinė, Justiniškės, Pašilaičiai, Fabijoniškės, Naujininkai) are offering significantly cheaper flats and are mostly inhabited by lower income". It is a known fact for every Vilnian. You can buy 3-4 rooms large flats in these districts when you can buy only ~2 rooms flat for the same price in Antakalnis, Žvėrynas, etc., so it is indeed chosen by lower income inhabitants (of course, exceptions are possible, but the majority is like that).
2) "Their biggest disadvantages together with a more difficult communication with the city centre are less greenery" I am not sure about all the districts, but such districts as Karoliniškės really has less greenery than Antakalnis, Žvėrynas. If you have a source which measures greenery area in all districts - it would be very useful, however I would prefer Antakalnis or Žvėrynas for walks instead of Justiniškės or Karoliniškės.
3) "they acted noisily and the townspeople did not want them around, though the area[which?]" Šnipiškės area.
4) "still remained poor[specify]" many houses does not have toilets inside even today and are in a very poor condition. References provided also notes this.
5) "Everything has started to change rapidly in the early 2000s[dubious – discuss] when the new Vilnius city municipality building was built there in 2004 and the area was named[dubious – discuss] as the new city centre with skyscrapers and expensive commercial offices being built constantly in the area since then." Reference notes that everything started to change with it being named as the new city centre.
Prices will not change because more distant neighbourhoods filled with Soviet architecture will always be less valuable than Žvėrynas, Antakalnis and Žirmūnai, which connects with the city centre just like the previous two elderships. And even if they will manage to change someshow - edits are always welcome, however now the situation is clear. -- Pofka (talk) 09:56, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious lines in "Housing" section 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Needs to be mantioned in the article. The book is Lithuanian Nationalism and the Vilnius Question, 1883−1940 by Dangiras Mačiulis and Darius Staliūnas, a review in a RS is here.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:58, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lithuanian Nationalism and the Vilnius Question, 1883−1940 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Can someone fix the ridiculous first paragraph? It is not necessary to provide three different population figures in the first three sentences about the city. 2603:7001:9640:1:C07F:CCC8:AB53:5448 (talk) 18:30, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I am planning to add a a new section called population, but due to my limited knowledge in Lithuanian popuation statistics, I humbly request everyone to help me out. Pimlokto (talk) 20:53, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

text: I am planning to add a a new section called population, but due to my limited knowledge in Lithuanian popuation statistics, I humbly request everyone to help me out. Pimlokto (talk) 20:53, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population figures