Talk:Jelena Dokic

message: When some people try to write some nonsense they should source that by serious source or to stop doing it! I.e. that her mother is a Croat. Source it otherwise stop. If her mom is a Croat she wouldn't be forced to leave Croatia and ran to Serbia as many Serbs from Croatia were forced to. Moderators, stop those faking!178.223.22.60 (talk) 13:37, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Source or STOP

message: Jelena DokiÄ? is a bad title. Moved back. --mav 02:58, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: title

message: I think that it is very important to say: She is born in Croatia.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alser (talk • contribs) 22:20, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Jelena Dokic has an Australian passport and is of Serbian ancestry. That is enough. Her mother might be Serbian or Croatian or whatever (the name Podnar could also be Slovenian, Czech or Polish, if you like you may go back 200 years), so we don't have any reliable sources. The obscure article in the footnote certainly isn't reliable. Jelena always declared herself as Serbian. The late Drazen Petrovic (basketball player) was one of Croatia's greatest sons, who declared himself a Croat, though his father was Serbian. So, leave it to Jelena Dokic, because she knows very well who and what she is.--80.133.250.33 (talk) 11:11, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Jelena Dokic has an Australian passport and is of Croatian and Serbian ancestry. That is enough. To say she is of Croatian and Serbian ancestry is factual and is not influenced by her self-identified ethnicity. I've restored the information blanked by the anon IP above.Ordinary Person (talk) 11:46, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Nationality

message: The top sentence sounds a bit clumsy but I'm not sure how to phrase that properly. Top-tier player, or something? --Shallot 14:52, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: top sentence

message: Rankings as at end 2005: (from WTA web site) http://www.wtatour.com/rankings/singles_numeric.asp?page=4
Info about 2001 Australian Open, her return to Australia in 2005 and 2005 quote: (from Sydney Morning Herald web site) http://www.smh.com.au/news/tennis/dokic-i-am-australian/2005/11/30/1133026474486.html
Troy88 17:42, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources for changes to Jelena Dokic entry (end 2005) 

message: I move following section to here from an anon who may have deleted more than they thought --Alf melmac 14:19, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved from article 

message: Marco79 wrote: moved Jelena Dokić to Jelena Dokic: proper name in English (without diacritic)
Her surname is Dokić, not Dokic. She plays for Australia, there's no doubt about it, but if her birth certificate says Dokić, it says Dokić, it doesn't say Dokic. The practice of removing diacritics exists in English written media when they do not have the acute accent, but here we do have it and there's no reason to skip it. Does anyone actually think that English readers will be horribly confused by the acute and start panicking when they see it? --Joy [shallot] 12:17, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Her name is 'Јелена Докић' in Serbian and 'Jelena Dokic' in English. Her birth certificate probably says 'Докић' rather than 'Dokić' or 'Dokic', but you're saying you don't know for sure what her birth certificate says. I gusss some English-speakers might be confused by 'ć'. 203.164.184.190 12:50, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Non-European and non-Western (names and titles), "Dokic" without the diacritic should be correct as that is the "most common form of the name used in English". (I have never, ever seen "Dokić" in an Australian newspaper, say.) But I don't really care, since I presume the relevant RDRs exist. I don't think readers would be confused (do we think so lowly of them? :)). pfctdayelise (translate?) 15:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

text:  Just for the record, if she was born in Osijek, her original birth certificate is most likely written in Latin script. --Joy [shallot] 19:34, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I knew a friend once from school whose last name was "Basic" (pronounced "ba-sich"), who came from Croatia or Serbia (not sure which one), and she never used a diacritic when writting her name in English (I don't know how she spelt it in Serbo-Croatian). Wouldn't Jelena do the same when writting her last name in English, spelling it 'Dokic' not 'Dokić', I reckon she would. BTW what does "RDR" mean? 203.164.184.10 12:22, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: title, again

message: As you'll all see, I've taken the liberty of reverting the text back to the Croatian version. There are reasons for this. Unlike diasporans born outside of their homeland, Dokić was born in Yugoslavia and lived there for the first nine to ten years of her life, her first language was Serbo-Croat and she will no doubt have been familiar with the alphabetical system. Now, I clearly cannot speak for Dokić herself because I have never met the girl. I do know however that people from our former republics who go abroad will do one of two things with their name: they may either leave it as it is with all diacritics and insignia (after transliteration if first language is primarily written in a non-Latinic script, eg. Cyrillic or Greek), leaving locals to pronounce the name however they choose, or they will transcribe their name into a text which is more comprehensible to locals. In the case of Jelena Dokić, the first factor would have been to switch the initial letter to a 'Y'. When I was at school there many many Polish pupils with me and a few Yugoslavs. Since they were all born in the UK, most were simply unfamiliar with the standards from the origin and so they dropped them systematically (subconsciously, not having properly learnt them) whilst maintaining their original spellings. Jelena may now be playing under the Australian flag again but she does not fall into the category of one who was born there, without knowledge of Osijek, Croatia or Yugoslavia. In some of these cases it may be the parents who decide to localise their names at birth, better still, give them local language names instead of current homeland names. The fact is that she was born with one name which for reasons familiar to people from the former Yugoslav republics, had two alphabets, and Dokić is how she was known in the country of birth and still so today. As for local media leaving out the diacritic, this is another subject. It is common for English language newspapers to discard local spellings for various reasons, possibly saving time or not confusing the reader, I don't know; either way, the British papers barely ever use the diacritical marks, and this even in the international sections which deal with non-naturalised citizens, such as Slobodan Milošević (forever written Milosevic), or Hungarian Ferenc Gyurcsany (actually spellt Gyurcsány); Sven-Goran Eriksson (spellt in Swedish, Sven-Göran) and Turkish football club Fenerbahce (from Fenerbahçe). In fact, British newspapers nowadays even leave out diacritics which had long been a part of English itself, such as café, Haïti (to stress pronunciation) so it isn't worth removing the diacritical mark on these bases and leaving the rest of it untouched. Evlekis 11:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well that's right. I think she's actually ethnic Hungarian but originally from Vojvodina. During the time she was growing up, Hungarians did for the most part have linguistic rights which included nomenclature and local orthography, at least in one official format. This would have actually made her Monika Szeles, possibly with a diacritical mark on either or both of the e letters. Either way, Monica Seles, using a c and a single s to start the surname and a single s at the end, both free of diacritics and digraphs, is how she herself has chosen to identify. That is not to say that the Serbian Latinic or the Hungarian forms would be incorrect and I certainly never suggested that Dokic is in any way incorrect, these forms are all conventional. It is just that the introduction needs to reflect the personal choice of the subject and one can find no source that Dokic is Jelena's own usage when in Australia. You see, Seles could have left her first name unaltered and it would have done nothing to inspire a different pronunciation (I mean switching K for C). In neither Hungarian orthography nor Serbo-Croat Latinic is the c of the same value as k at any time, not even in front of hard vowels and consonants. As for variations, well they all fit, I mean even Shakespeare had a dozen or so ways of spelling his own name and only in recent decades have writers settled for one conventional form. Evlekis 15:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dokić 

message: ITF and WTA official pages of Dokic     mentioted she was born in Belgrade. It is mistake ? --kelovy 06:09, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I live in Serbia and I know from media and I think that is a general knowledge, in Serbia and Croatia, that she's born in Osijek, Croatia. --Göran Smith 09:15, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  thank You for information --kelovy 14:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birthplace 

message: A discussion that may affect the name or title of this article is ongoing here.  Please voice any opinions or concerns on that page.  After the discussion concludes, this article may be moved to a different title, in accordance with Wikipedia's Naming Conventions.  Thank you,  Redux (talk) 05:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion concerning this article

message: The name of this article should be changed to "Jelena Dokic" because that is the name used on the English-language websites of the official governing bodies of tennis, the Women's Tennis Association and the International Tennis Federation.  That also is the name used on the English-language websites of Fed Cup and the Australian Open.  Tennis expert (talk) 04:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: The article states:
"Other highlights include beating several former World No. 1 players: Martina Hingis in the first round of Wimbledon in 1999, Kim Clijsters at the 2003 Zürich Open, and Venus Williams at the 2000 Italian Open."
I am confused as to whether that means she has beaten several former number one players or three former number one players. Please can someone rewrite the sentence to make it clearer? Coyets (talk) 09:24, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wins against former number one ranked players 

message: Is there a case for a separate article on Damir? He's fairly notable. I was going to add some material to his article regarding his recent arrest for threatening the Australian ambassador and possession of firearms and bombs, but discovered he doesn't have an article. That kind of information doesn't seem quite appropriate in the Jelena article. Ordinary Person (talk) 05:35, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Mark Hurd (talk) 04:23, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Damir 

message: I don't know what the score was so I can't truly edit this piece but
"Dokic was knocked out of the Brisbane International by Amelie Mauresmo in straight sets in the first round. Dokic was up 5–3 in the first set before Mauresmo came back to win the tiebreak 11–9. In the second set, Dokic was down 3–5 but rallied to lead 6–5 before Mauresmo won the set in a tiebreak, 7–5."
Obviously you can't tie break at 6-5 so if someone knows the result, can you edit it to be factually correct. thanks. 86.135.254.246 (talk) 07:07, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The quote is fine - it is highlighting "turning points": In the first set Dokic led by two games (5-3) before Mauresmo broke back and they got to 6-6 and tiebreak was required. Similarly in the second set Mauresmo led by two games, (3-5), then was behind one game (6-5), but got it to 6-6 for another tiebreak. Mark Hurd (talk) 14:42, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Error 

message: ... but an encyclopedia. Please don't list every single appearance of Dokic. People who want to know about that can easily check the WTA website. --Bernardoni (talk) 00:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is not a blog 

message: There are two different photos of Dokic in the article, but one appears twice.  The long shot of Dokic appears in the lead-in, and then is repeated in the section covering 2009.  Just below that is another photo, a profile clearly showing Dokic's face. Recommend that the profile photo be moved to the lead-in position instead, and not repeated.  The way the photos are currently arranged, it distracts the reader from the text of the article by lending a sense of deja vu. 75.172.158.117 (talk) 08:32, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Repeated photo 

message: Cúchullain, reasonable close on the basis of current primary nationality. For the record however, now that the article has been moved and Serbian name removed throughout article except bracket in lede, the two academic sources, both of which use the Serbian name, which were deleted during the RM can be restored: removal of both source and text Grasso, removal of Roberts text. Father should [remain Dokić. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:46, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Restore removed academic sources

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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