Talk:Srebrenica massacre/Archive 10

message: Although the background to the massacre deserves to be properly explained, I feel that it can be done more concisely and with fewer sub-sections (which, if nothing else, just makes the TOC longer). Would anyone object to, or want to contribute to, a new, more concise version of the background section including the "Safe area" section? KarlXII 00:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing - the background 

message: Where are admins to protect integrity of wikipedia's encyclopedia?
We can't let people who deny facts (e.g. who deny Srebrenica Genocide, or who deny WWII Holocaust) to participate in these topics, because they have nothing valid to contribute.
They delete important facts of the case, and spam articles with discredited leftist-apologist make-believe propaganda. If they love Milosevic, Hitler, Saddam Hussein and other dictators so much, then they should move either to Serbia, Germany, or Iraq; and they would probably not be welcomed even there.
So, let this be final wake up call for wikipedia's admins to protect Srebrenica Genocide article from these vandals. Bosniak 20:19, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, this does it. I have been nothing but polite and open about my edits on this page. Now I'm getting accusations like "sockpuppet" from Fairview and "love Milosevic" from you. What I do think the admin should do is to do something about the tone used and the aggression level here. And you, I'm going to report for slinging personal insults. As for F-view, I encourage him to investigate as his accusations are becoming very irritating.KarlXII 09:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  KarlXII is destroying Srebrenica Genocide article 

message: Bosniak, earlier this year, I believe it was Emir Arvin (?) who submitted an extremely well argued and well documented account of Ivanesic and the genesis of Belgrade Centre for Investigating Crimes Committed against the Serbs. If you can find Emir's submission, it may help you document statements regarding Ivanisevic. Fairview360 01:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ivanisevic 

message: I just made two edits to the article while forgetting to sign in. The two recent edits by 216.7.9.34 are me. However, when checking the IP I see that not all edits by 216.7.9.34 are by me. I see three edits from Nov. 20 and 30 that are not me. The IP address is from a cafe with wireless for its customers. Fairview360 22:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  for the record 

message: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6207254.stm --HanzoHattori 15:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anger over Dutch Srebrenica medal  

message: ETA: I didn't correct this yet. I'm just bringing this up, because it is something that needs to be corrected sooner or later.:The wikipedia article states:
On April 13, 1993, the Serbs told the UNHCR that they would attack the town within two days unless the Bosniaks surrendered. The Bosniaks refused to surrender.
:The first line about the VRS attack is true. However, according to the book "The Death of Yugoslavia" the second part about the Bosniak forces refusing to surrender is not true.
: According to the book: 
:On April 12th 1993 the VRS launched an intense attack on the town that killed approxemently 56 people; including children playing on the football field. 
(Source: Yugoslavia Death of a Nation, by Laura Silber and Allan Little pg. 269)
 
:On April 14th the Srebrenica authorities asked that a message be smuggle out to the UNPROFOR headquarters in Belgrade.
Quote:
"The Commander told me that they had decided to surrender. He said it was not simply the shelling in the center of the town but that their defensive lines had collapsed. They looked desperate and finished."
(Source: Yugoslavia Death of a Nation, by Laura Silber and Allan Little pg. 271)
:On April 16th Mladic, Sefer Halilovic and a Cedric Thornberry met to discuss the surrender and mass evacuation of Srebrenica.
(Source: Silber and Little pg 272)
 
The evacuation of Srebrenica in 1993 never took place, because just the previous night (April 15th) the UN had declared Srebrenica a safe area. 
The Safe Area agreement was:
1. Serb forces were not requied to pull back from their achieved lines
2. A ceasefire was agreed in effect at 5:00 A.M
3. The Bosnian Gov't forces would be disarmed and provided for the deployment of 140 Canadian troops to collect weapons. 
4. The Serbs agreed to allow the helicopter evacuation of 500 wounded. These would be selected by UNPROFOR in the presence of two doctors from both sides. 
5. All helicopters would be required to stop in the Serb held town of Zvornik, regardless of the condition of the wounded.
(Silber and Little page 273)
Therfore, it does appear as if the ABiH was preparing to surrender. 
Furthermore, the line about the ABiH "refusing to surrender" as it is stated in the article, is not even sourced. 
Gardenfli 20:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: slight correction "Surrendering"

message: Who changed 'estimated' to 'at least' in the opening sentence????! That link provided is a link to the official SARAJEVO list..... .... .... I'm sure that's not biased! I'm not even going to bother changing it..
I'm so sick of this article... I give up. 
:WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE WAR WAS HORRIBLE (referring to Bosnian War)
:BOTH SIDES COMMITTED ATROCITIES 
:BOTH SIDES ARE GUILTY
:BOTH SIDES ARE VICTIMS
But goddamit, people have to stop spreading garbage about what happened, or the two sides will NEVER get beyond ugly nationalism and hate that keeps them from being the friends they one were.... 
One last comment:
This entire article is based on a biased portrayal of what happened in Srebrenica in the form of a film. If films like this keep getting made, that not only portray one side of the story, but also make up stories and exaggerate claims (such as casualty counts), then HATE WILL PREVAIL and many people will be misinformed due to BIASED accounts... but most importantly... two peoples who should love each other, and take care of each other, and watch each others backs, and eat burek together, and go to Bijelo Dugme concerts together.... will only sit on opposite sides of the fence... waiting for the next opportunity to strike...
What a sad world...
Only the truth will unite Bosnians and Serbs...
Spread the truth,
Stop the lies... I'm done with this article.   
Stop The Lies 08:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Stop the Vandalism! Stop the Lies!

message: Srebrenica genocide info/references are overhelmingly tied to the ICTY court judgments etc, and there is no need for POV status. Obviously, some people want to disrupt the truth from seeing light, but thanks to Wikipedia's anti-vandalism and anti-edit-war policy, the article is slowly (but steadily) becoming better. The point is - there is no need for destruction of article, and admins must deal with people such as KarlXII. There is no reason to let those people continue their vandalism, deletion of whole paragraphs, edit wars, etc. It's such a disruption and it must be changed. Lock the article, do something, don't let vandalism prevail. Thank you.  Bosniak 09:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a matter if the information is accurate or not, it is a matter of how it is presented and what information is presented. See my list of disputed issues above and you will get a feeling for what it's about.KarlXII 23:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No need for POV status as all info presented is accurate 

message: Can someone give a justification for what happenned? Mgunn 18:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the edit history.  The images were removed because they were copyright violations. —Psychonaut 19:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe there are too many photos in the article. I just removed one, but I wonder why all of these photos are here. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 01:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: There was a lot of different uploaders of the TV screenshots, which have been slated for speedy deletion by someone else. Most of the memorial photos look free, but it doesn't hurt to check them out. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just had to remove a few pictures of the memorial since, on the Commons (where I admin at), the photos were determined not to be created by the uploader. However, I found  which could be used under a public domain license (as a photo of the US Government). Would this work? User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:54, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, now the concern is about all of those TV screenshots. I assume we can use some under fair use, but my question (as a non-Serb) is this; what value do some of the photos have? I seen several screenshots of the UN forces; maybe one could be needed. I am just suggesting things now, since I know this article is highly contested. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 11:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What the heck happenned to all the images? 

message: Started the Višegrad massacre article - stub only right now. --HanzoHattori 15:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Višegrad massacre 

message: Read http://www.bosnia.org.uk/bosrep/report_format.cfm?articleID=1041&reportid=162
I was reminded of this some months later while reading Michael Parenti’s To kill a nation: The attack on Yugoslavia, published by NLR’s sister organization, the publishing house Verso. The book is simply an outright apologia for Milošević and his regime. Period. Thus while it would appear that supporting the prosecution of war-criminals at the Hague Tribunal is unacceptable to NLR/Verso, actually supporting the principal war-criminal himself - orchestrator of the worst acts of imperialist aggression and racial mass-murder in Europe since the death of Stalin - is entirely acceptable.
Conspiracy theorists are generally hard to argue with, especially if they don't trust sources like UN, US government reports, Human Rights groups, ICTY Judgements, etc.
Parenti is an out-and-out apologist and anyone citing him is coming at the issue from that standpoint and we can be pretty certain won't be interested in the truth.
Bosniak 22:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Michael Parenti - Serb-crimes Apologist (similar to Diane Johnstone)