Talk:Frisian involvement in the Crusades

message: Created by Ezza, who did a great job, according to me! -)-(-H- (|-|) -O-)-(- 15:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Like Adam, I am only aware of a mentionable Frisian presence from the Fifth Crusade. While Frisians may have been present on previous ventures, their indivdiual contributions were not great enough to warrant any mention that I know of. So even assuming that this is oral tradition being preserved by Occo, it grew in scope with time and does not really reflect history. The names of the individuals too are doubtful and it was common enough to invent Crusader ancestors after the concept of a Crusade took off (following the success of #1). Srnec 18:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

text: But what is the primary evidence for their association with any Crusade before the fifth? Srnec 03:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, there is no conspiracy to remove all mention of Frisians from Wikipedia, so calm down. Neither Srnec nor I ever denied that there were Frisians in the early crusades, we just said they were not a substantial force on land until the Fifth. The real problem is that these particular individuals are not attested anywhere. Where does Fulcher mention Frisians? (A chapter number, or page number, would help...I don't see them mentioned in the chapters about Nicaea.) According to Albert of Aix there were some Frisian pirates who met up with the crusaders, but no Frisian knights. There must have been Frisians at the Siege of Lisbon during the Second Crusade, but they aren't even specifically mentioned as a group in De Expugnatione Lyxbonensis, much less by name.  For the Third Crusade, the Itinerarium Peregrinorum and the Chronicle of Ernoul mention a large fleet of Danish and Frisian (in the Itinerarium) or Frisian, Breton, and German (in Ernoul) ships at the Siege of Acre, but the only name connected with them is James of Avesnes. So yes, of course there were Frisians, but where do these names come from? Adam Bishop 17:12, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, upon further inspection of Fulcher, he mentions Frisian as one of the multitude of languages among the crusader armies. But still no names. And Jonathan Riley-Smith's "The First Crusaders, 1095-1131" doesn't mention any Frisians either, as far as I can see. Adam Bishop 19:58, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have rewritten the article based on what I could find online and in books on hand, but I do not have the primary sources. It would be nice if you could perhaps add references to the information I lifted from this talk page or perhaps some quotations from the primary sources? Srnec 22:09, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great Srnec, thanks! Hopefully this will be acceptable to the Frisian contributors as well. I will search through the primary sources at hand for some pithy quotes. Adam Bishop 22:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A minor thing: should the article be retitled "Frisian participation in the Crusades" as I emboldened in the first line? Interestingly, I picked up The Italian Crusades just to see if any Frisians participated in those and what do you know, it had "Frisian crusaders" right there in the index! But it was referring to their participation in crusades VII and VIII. Srnec 22:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah that would be a better name. Adam Bishop 02:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I am confused Srnec, Jordan makes no specific mention of Frisians participating in the falsities you mention in your last paragraph. You appear to have turned a generalisation into a specific without any real evidence/reference. Why? What is the relevance to your article? If there is evidence of Frisians, specific individuals - individual names, what are these references and do the authors actually say that the claims are false? If you have no quotable references to substantiate your claim you should remove your last sentence in the last paragraph. You say these claims were ‘not uncommon’ i.e. common in Frisia, I have found there are in fact very very few Frisian pilgrims/crusaders, specifically’ named throughout the crusades in Dutch or English texts. If they are so common, where are the references?
:The relevance to the article is that it prevents the types of misunderstandings that led to the creation of several inaccurate articles in the past (see the original version of this page). It explains the names sometimes encountered in research concerning Frisian involvement in the First Crusade: names for which there is no basis in history. You are right that there are very few individuals names in accurate texts, that is what Mol says. However, early modern historians did write down names of supposed Frisian First Crusaders and those are found in the initial version of this article. Look at the article history. Jordan explains the tendency of Europeans to fabricate crusading ancestors and Mol explains the dearth of actual Frisian individual crusaders known to us. Together I think they are satisfactory, if you still believe it is original research, however, you can remove it without fear that I will reinsert it. Though the last paragraph, which is easily sustantiable, suddenly has no purpose without it. Srnec 03:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a form of censorship. The information is highly suspect and no properly cited source has been provided. Several sources provided that were available online were checked and found wanting. No further internet sources show up any information. A hundreds year old source is not valuable without a more modern critique. I have only read Mol's abstract, but he specifically mentions a death of individuals' names in his abstract. Srnec 04:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I skimmed through that article in Crusades by Mol, and it seemed to be about the Fifth Crusade, mostly.  I didn't have time to read the whole thing, but I will try to next time I am in the library. Adam Bishop 07:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The last sentence

message: Another good source about Frisian participation on the Fifth Crusade is Anatomy of a Crusade, 1213-1221, by James M. Powell. I will try to add to the article if I have time. Adam Bishop 15:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another source