Talk:Indian martial arts/Archive 1

message: why the need to create this page ?? well,the idots who created the other category did so in a way that did'nt show on the search+their list was extremely abridged,now it would help if someone did the introduction and write a bit about indian martial arts —This unsigned comment was added by 59.94.96.91 (talk • contribs) .
:What exactly are you talking about? Arundhati bakshi 14:59, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

message: Ans since i did it in a hurry, it would be nice to see someone from the encylopedic squad to help clean up he article and the articles in "various Indian martial arts" category. They could use enclyclopedic tone and grammer cleanup. Freedom skies 01:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Did my bit

message: The guy who went "India did not exist before 1947" needs to take a closer look at the history of India. Yes, the 16 mahajanapadas did exist and they shared the history of a common entity called Bharat, as cited by Magesthenese when he said Indica and the British before they came to India formed the East India Company, why form a company for a country that did not exist ?? Did India not Exist as an entity during the Kuru dynasty ?? or the Magadh empire ?? or the Mughal empire ?? Try getting your facts straight before you deliver a half baked monstrosity of a lecture on Indian history.Freedom skies 03:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is for 71.146.67.156 and 68.108.208.158, get your facts straight before you go all argumentative and profane on the article. In other words, try arguing it out here, rather than on the article itself. Freedom skies 03:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: To the guy who went "India did not exist before 1947"

message: This article isn't very objective, and the author has either not done the necessary research to verify what he has written, or he has deliberately presented incorrect information. The very first lines of this article show that it's not becoming of an encyclopaedia entry:
"Ancient India is widely considered to be the origin of martial arts" - widely considered by whom? Martial Art historians agree that the oldest recorded evidence of systematic practice of martial arts comes from the Mesopotamian civilization, between 3000BC and 4000BC. There are also frescos and paintings from Egyptian pyramids from around the same period, that depict martial art forms.
But that apart, it is only common sense that wherever there were men with their senses and limbs intact, they would have taken to fighting and tried out various methods, and over a period of time, set techniques of fighting would have evolved. So it is highly unlikely that all or even most of the world's martial arts originated from any one particular place.
--Witnwisdumb 10:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Not a well written article - keep your confused sense of patriotism out of encyclopedia entries

message: i'm sorry but this artgicle does not even come close to being truthful.  I've read all of those ancient religious texts deemed to be talking about martial arts and none of them.... none of them speak about any form of martial arts.  the most detailed that they speak about martial arts is that this god-king or that god-king wrestled (vaguely) or had to train in what was called archery at the time. None fo the religious texts go into detail about anything that even looks or seems like martial arts.  You can not make assumptionns about general statements on fighting or even use of a sword to "martial arts".  If that was true, then Gilgamesh is the oldest martial arts textbook because it is the oldest known written work in the world and it talks about "fighting" and "wrestling".  Kennethtennyson 04:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: horrible horrible article

message: Wow, the way you people went all "horrible Terrible, someone get Ye Pithcforks, we'll burn the munsta !!" and deleted the whole thing instead of modifying the content or turining it more enclyclopedic was kinda unexpected. First that Tamil guy who posted argumets in the article itself and now this ?? ?? Anyways, on the positive side I did not expect such lively remarks about what I thought was a sidey article, guess more editors are good.
Listen, If you're going to mention frescos from Mesopotamia and Gilgamesh then please do, I'll cite both Yoga and the defined system of Mallayuddha (with four distinct forms). If Indus Vally and Mehrgarh have anything to say about it, Yoga predates the frescos and The epic of Gilgamesh so good luck with operation "friscos and gilamesh predate yoga".
And, major fighting systems credit India to be the home of martial arts, including grandfather arts like those from the Shaolin, Jujutsu, Karate and even Modern Systems like BJJ. It's a fact, try living with it. and read a few official websites before you disagree. Even, Alex Doss, President of the Tamil Sangam at San Diego State University has said that "In conclusion to this topic, Martial arts were introduced by the Tamil civilization to China and Southeast Asia.". Guess the thing about someone screaming "your patriotism is misplaced, die !!!!!!!!!!" does sound a bit funny huh ??  Plus, The Tsutumi Hozan and Gracie lineages of Jujutsu trace their ultimate origins to India. The Yi Jin Jing credits Shaolin Kung Fu to Bodhidharma, described as South Indian in primary sources. Also, ever heard heard of Rickson Gracie ?? here, go to his website and hear what "the experts" have to say .
Anyways, with all the commotion I did edit the article suitably enough before someone had a panic attack. So, Happy Now ??Freedom skies 18:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: About the panic in the encylopedic squad

message: This is a continuing problem that we seem to be running into especially online when dealing with any aspect of Indian history.  It's not just a problem that JFD and I am haveing but one that harvard historians are having and almost any historian of indian history.  You need to separate true history from made up history or religious history.  First and foremost, it seems like almost every indian nationalist online is using religious textbooks and even a vague mentioning of wrestling or archery and drawing vast assumptions and conclusions that these textbooks are talking about martial arts in general.  they then say - oh, this is thousands of years old because we believe that the oral texts began to be spoken of thousands of years ago.  of course, no one mentions that the oldest text in india in written form can only be dated back to the 3rd century b.c. or so.  Further, None of the indian religious texts discuss anything about martial arts that are current either in name or in content. All of these names are not martial arts that were mentioned in any religious textbooks.  And please do not presume that india could be the birthplace of martial arts when most historians believe that martial arts were invented in various regions separtately.  Further,if you did your homework it would occur to you that all of those sites that you mentioned are just websites that anyone can make.  I can make a website that says that the earth is square shaped, does it mean that it is true?   If you would polish your English, you would understand that i'm using Gilgamesh and the bible as an example of why no one believes that martial arts originated in the mideast. Gilgamesh is the oldest known story in the world and it talks about wrestlign and archery - does that mean that the mideast invented martial arts?  Secondly, YOGA is not martial arts! there is nothing in yoga as far as i can tell that can help you defend yourself against an attacker except perhaps stretch better before a fight. Nothing at all!  How can getting into a lotus position help with martial arts???  Kennethtennyson 16:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and by the way, Gaycie did not invent jujustu - he was taught by a japanese person and he later modified it.  Further, he is not a historian so i don't know how credible he is as an authority on the history of martial arts. If that were true, then maybe we should ask Chuck Norris his ideas on the origins of Karate.  Most japanese, koreans, and chinese historians including most credible historians in general do not follow your belief on the origins of martial arts through india. You cite a few random people and a few random websites and state that it is "fact" to buttress your support. further, you cite a chinese text that attributes bodhidharma to shaolin kung fu which has been shown to be a ridiculously made up text by a Taoist writer against the shaolin temple during the 19th century. The bodhidharma legend is just that - a legend- that has 10-20 totally different versions and if you actually believe in that legend, then the first mention of bodhidharma ever in history (and probably the most accurate) stated that he was in Fact Persian from Central Asia/Tibet so if you are willing to follow legends, all martial arts in the world by your reasoning must have originated in Central Asia/Tibet.  20:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to know what we object to, we object to the whole article - almost everything written in it... from the statement india is the birthplace of these various martial arts... to your attribution of the birth of indian martial arts in religious texts using archaeastronomy! (which no one credibly believes at all)... to your attempt at stating that the various mythological god-kings in Hindu religious texts knew martial arts...to your attribution that it spread to southeast asia and indonesia (no proof at all)... almost everything unfortunately. Kennethtennyson 20:54, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV and historical accuracy

message: I applaud you for making an attempt at redoing the article as more "encyclopedic," however the fact remains that you are still unfortunately using one-sided sources on the internet that are not books but random websites to support your notion that various martial arts came from india.  You are still not acknowleding the fact that those religious textbooks don't name any of the martial arts that are existent in india today nor do they describe in any way a form of fighting that appears to be martial arts.  All they talk about is "this god-king learned archery", this "king wrestled that king..."; further, for every one random person or website that says that bodhidharma invented this or that martial arts, I can give you ten or more books written by historians, authoritative textbooks and volumes of encyclopedias including websites that say that bodhidharma is just a legend, that the first reference to bodhdiharma in any chinese textbook says that he is persian or central asian, and the only - the only reference to bodhidharma and shaolin kung fu was written by a taoist ( who disliked the Shaolin monks) in the 18th-19th century A.D. a thousand years after he ever was mentioned in any chinese textbook.  Further, if you want to use the legend to support your claims, then why don't you mention the fact that all of the chinese legends state that he created stretching exercises (not martial arts) to make the monks stronger - and that he created these exercises in China after meditating in a cave for 9 years.  None of the chinese legends stated that he brought it from india! you're currently making a random educated guess that since there are currently some indiginous martial arts in india today that it might have existed in India way back in the 6th century A.D. and warping the legend to state that bodhidharma instead of creating it in a cave in China in the 6th century or so (after meditating without moving for 9 years) must have brought it from india to china.  Further, you don't seem to want to cite the sources of literature (and these are actual historical texts not websites) in china that state that the shaolin monks already had martial arts before the purported arrival of bodhidharma.  Not only that, why do you keep on citing Alex Doss (the president of some Tamil independence movement - who is not a historian) when he says on his website that Bodhidharma (suprise suprise!) is actually Tamil! and that bodhidharma's martial arts were Tamil based!  Further, why in the world are you citing a Brazilian who is not a historian who did not invent Jujutsu as to the origins of Japanese Jujutsu?  While you're at it why don't you just ask Jet Li or Chuck Norris their ideas on the origins of kalaripayattu.  As a result, the article's factual accuracy is open to interpretation and the neutrality of the article is open to interpretation. But once again I appreciate this dialogue.  However, Freedom, you seem suprised that we would be so disagreeable to your notion.  If you had been around 2-3 years before, you would have discovered that this is not the first time that this has happened.  Almost every 3-4 months, some random national from some country - pakistan, the middle east, europe, and especially India seems to come onto wikipedia and decides that their country is the progenitor of this or that martial arts because he heard this or that rumor online or at home.  I guess everyone is crazy for martial arts these days.  This has been ongoing i believe since the beginning of the creation of wikipedia.  Regardless, this is not the first time that this has happened and i guess it will not the last time.  Please have an open mind Freedom.  Kennethtennyson 23:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I re-edited everything in the text to a more accurate interpretation of the history of indian martial arts.  I removed anything that Alex Doss wrote as he is not a historian and there is nothing to substantiate anything that he has written online.  I also removed what was mentioned about Gracie.  He is not a historian either - just a random martial artist with his own website.  Kennethtennyson 00:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: still not fact