Talk:Dutch nationality law

message: Is it not possible that the Dutch nationality is granted by a royal decree as in the the case of Maxima? Daimanta 11:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Special regulations 

message: Further, I find erroneous the following comment: tgeorgescu
"Local expat bulletin boards, though, say that the immigration ministry has largely undermined these exceptions, either by imposing barriers so high that no one reaches them, or by using secondary obstacles to prevent would-be applicants from getting Dutch nationality." tgeorgescu
Even if it is true that immigration/naturalization rules have become harsher, my reasons are:
First, it is the duty of every individual who requests naturalization to fully inform himself/herself of the laws in application. The site http://ind.nl is full with information in this respect, and you have to know level 4 Dutch (NT2-2, not as high level as one might think) in order to understand the nuances of that literature. tgeorgescu
Second, if you're in doubt about applicable laws, do consult a lawyer. Third, if you cannot afford it, do consult the site http://wetten.overheid.nl and read everything you find when searching for Nederlanderschap. tgeorgescu
Fourth, consult the site of the Dutch Ministry of Foregin Affairs, it has info in English language about Dutch nationality. The link is http://www.minbuza.nl/en/welcome/DutchCitizens,dutch_nationality tgeorgescu
If you want the help of the state (or community) in this respect, the solution is very simple: make an appointment at city (community) hall with the naturalization official and ask him/her all the questions you may want to ask before requesting naturalization. You may also call (by phone) the department of Civil Affairs of your community (city hall). All these clerks are paid from taxpayers' money to answer your questions, and you simply ask them to do their job for which they are paid. tgeorgescu
But, hey, that's not all: the IND has a phone line, 10 eurocent per minute, excluding mobile costs, the number is 0900-1234561 (you may only call this number from the Netherlands, as far as I know). Ask them every question you might think of, they are paid to answer your questions. In the Netherlands, everybody has the right to politely put questions like "What if I would to this?" or "When it is the best moment to fill in my request?" Your imagination is the limit in asking such questions. Taxpayers pay for such services, it is up to you to use them. Besides, you don't need to talk Dutch, you may also talk English, German, French, Spanish, they have clerks who talk such languages (eventually even Arabic or Turkish). The state pays translators for whatever language which can be called by phone by doctors or lawyers or government services just to translate it for you. tgeorgescu
:I have to say that I have edited the main article to reflect the idea that such erroneous comment truly appears on ethnic internet forums for Dutch inhabitants and showing due reasons why such viewpoint is erroneous. I am satisfied with the article as it is now, and I suggest one of the labels of "controversial viewpoint" (or "no neutrality") be removed. Tgeorgescu (talk) 08:21, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: In my view erroneous comment

message: i would like more information about "Exemptions to the requirement to renounce foreign citizenship" if i cohabit with a dutch citizen, can i get to keep my nationality? or is marriage/registered partnership a must?
Properly reading Kingdom's Law on Dutch Nationality, Art.1 paragraph 2 (points a and b) and Art. 9 paragraph 3 point d, it follows that: tgeorgescu
(i) in respect to this law, registered partnership (or even three-years long cohabitation with a Dutch partner, for other laws grant you retroactively partnership status after living together, as in unregistered partenerial cohabitation, with an unmarried Dutch person for more than three years -- this boils down to: after three years living together you have same rights as a registered partner) counts as marriage, with the exception of provision of Article 15A, point a. This is an article that only matters for citizens of countries which have signed, ratified the Convention on the Reduction of Cases of Multiple Nationality and on Military Obligations in Cases of Multiple Nationality (Strasbourg, 6.V.1963), never denounced it and made no reservations about art. 1 of the Convention, which says that by getting citizenship of a similar party to this treaty, the origin nationality is automatically lost. The parties to this agreement (which made no such reservations) are: Netherlands, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Luxembourg and Norway (according to http://www.minbuza.nl/en/welcome/DutchCitizens,dutch_nationality/i_am_a_dutch_citizen_and_would_like_to_acquire_anothe.html ). So, if you are no citizen of these countries, you do not need to worry about art. 15A, point a. tgeorgescu
(ii) marriage with a Dutch national entitles you with the right to keep your nationality of origin, see Art. 9, paragraph 3, point d of the same law. tgeorgescu
(iii) since registered partnership or more than three years cohabitation with a Dutch national gives you in respect to this law the same rights as marriage (for, in the meaning of this law "marriage" also means partnership, see Art. 1, paragraph 2, points a and b, with the exception mentioned above for Art. 15A, point a), partnership entitles you to keep your origin nationality  except if you're Austrian, Belgian, Danish, Luxembourgese, or Norwegian subject. tgeorgescu
 
(iv) this boils down to: if you count as partner of a Dutch national, and if you're not Austrian, Belgian, Danish, Luxembourgese or Norwegian, you have the legal right to keep your origin nationality. You loose this legal right if you sign an agreement that you are committed to renounce your origin nationality, but nobody in the Netherlands may force you to sign such an agreement. It is your own free decision and you have to tell the clerk in advance that you are entitled by law to be exempt from the provisions of the general rule of renouncing your origin nationality (this general rule holds if and only if that could reasonably be done by you, and only if you have no legal right to be exempt from this rule). tgeorgescu
See also (for speakers of Dutch language): http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationaliteit
:I have to admit here an error: in the meaning of Art. 1.2.b. of the Dutch nationality law (RWN), registered partnership is the same thing as marriage, in so far as the RWN is concerned. I searched for a Dutch proviso which would grant the same rights as marriage after three years of unregistered parnternship and I found no reference to such presumed fact. What is true in this respect is explained in the leaflet on http://ind.nl/nl/Images/Ned_worden_0706_tcm5-574.pdf , page 11, namely that after three years of living in the Netherlands under the same roof with a partner, in a relationship of unregistered partnership, one still has the right of requesting naturalisation. Unfortunately, this does not entitle him/her to the exception from renouncing one's original nationality from art. 9.3.d. of RWN. But, in this respect there is a simple trick to be done: register your relationship with your partner before you demand naturalization, and you are still entitled by RWN art. 9.3.d. juncto art. 1.2.b. to be exempted from the proviso of renouncing your nationality of origin. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:46, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Is cohabitation an exemption from renouncing original citizenship?

message: I would like to comment on: "Laywers are trying to persuade the Dutch government that Art. 27 RWN discriminates against women and should therefore be revoked." Tgeorgescu 17:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discrimination against women 

message: Regeling verkrijging en verlies Nederlanderschap (Regulation about obtaining and loosing Dutch nationality)
Chapter II, Section II, Art. 5, paragraphs 1 - 6 (after option/naturalization, one has to be present at the option/naturalization ceremony in order to become a Dutchman or a Dutchwoman)
Chapter II, Section III, Art. 6, paragraph 1 (letter from a to h) and paragraph 2 (exceptions to the rule of renouncing the nationality of origin, when becoming a Dutchman/Dutchwoman)
Rijkswet op het Nederlanderschap (The Law of the Kingdom about Dutch nationality)
art. 7 and 8 (requirements for option/naturalization)
art. 9, paragraph 1 (loosing Dutch nationality)
art. 9 paragraph 3 letter d and art. 1 paragraph 2 (being married/registered partnership with a Dutchman/Dutchwoman is equal to being excepted from the rule of renouncing one's nationality of origin; living together with a Dutchman/Dutchwoman for three years also, because it is considered the same thing as registered partnership)
art. 15 paragraph 1 letter a (you lose your Dutch nationality if you accept by your own choice another nationality); letter c (for people with multiple nationality, living ten years outside Dutch territories is equal to loosing the Dutch nationality; there are some exceptions to it and it can be prevented if you renew your Dutch passport timely); letter d (the cancellation of the naturalization decision)
art. 15 paragraph 2, letters a, b and c (exceptions from losing the Dutch nationality when getting another nationality through your own choice; it is of application since 1 April 2003)
art. 15A (exceptions for the exceptions mentioned in art. 15)
art. 16 (comparable to art. 15, it applies to underage persons)
art 16A (comparable to art. 15A, it applies to underage persons)
Besluit verkrijging en verlies Nederlanderschap (Decision about getting and losing Dutch nationality)
art. 60a and art. 60b (after option/naturalization, one becomes a Dutchman/Dutchwoman through participating in the option/naturalization ceremony; there are some exceptions to this proviso; it works retroactively since His Majesty the King/Queen signed the option/naturalization decision).
See:
http://wetten.overheid.nl/cgi-bin/deeplink/law1/title=Regeling%20verkrijging%20en%20verlies%20Nederlanderschap
http://wetten.overheid.nl/cgi-bin/deeplink/law1/title=Rijkswet%20op%20het%20Nederlanderschap
http://wetten.overheid.nl/cgi-bin/deeplink/law1/title=Besluit%20verkrijging%20en%20verlies%20Nederlanderschap
Disclaimer: This is simply my own opinion. It does not constitute legal advice! In doubt, check with your Dutch consulate/embassy or hire a Dutch lawyer. Tgeorgescu 11:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A short overview of the Dutch laws in respect to nationality/nationalities 

message: In kingdoms, people are not called "citizens", but they are called "subjects", because they are subjected to the king/queen. Tgeorgescu 20:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tgeorgescu, it would be nice if you'd respond to my comments before you revert my edits. Blue-Haired Lawyer 15:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, mea culpa. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:59, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree. Saying someone is Dutch to mean s/he is a Dutch citizen is too strange for English. I think we should go for citizen as it's the most common legal term and come people think the term 'national' means ethnicity. Blue-Haired Lawyer 13:22, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I corrected "citizen" to "subject". The word "onderdaan" means "subject". Kingdoms do not have citizens, they have subjects. The word "citizen" applies to nationals of non-kingdoms. In kingdoms, nationals are called subjects because they are subjected to the king. Dutch communes (municipalities) have citizens, meaning that they are inhabitants of such communes. In my case, I was a citizen of Zwolle, but no Dutch subject; after my naturalization, I am both a citizen of Zwolle and a Dutch subject. So the word subject expresses my quality of being a national of the Dutch state, while the word citizen simply means I am an inhabitant of the commune Zwolle. Tgeorgescu (talk) 15:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In the United Kingdom people have been called citizens for quite a while now (although there are some people who are still called British subjects owing to a certain amount of legal leftovers.) I think we can safely say the use of subjects meaning nationals is archaic. Blue-Haired Lawyer 16:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand it about the UK. But the Dutch laws call Dutch subjects "onderdanen". Even when speaking of either citizens or subjects of other countries, like the countries of the European Union, they are globally called "onderdanen". See for example Wet inburgering, art. 5.2.a., which calls both citizens and subjects of the EU/EER states and Switzerland by the word "onderdanen". The forms available at http://ind.nl/NL/algemeen/brochures/downloaden/index.asp?lang=nl&subhome=tcm:5-266-4&title=Verblijfwijzer%20Subhome&origin=%2FNL%2Fverblijfwijzer%2Findex.asp%3F were updated in 2008 and they speak now of citizens instead of subjects. I understand that people outside the Netherlands consider the word "subject" archaic and it could be for them a source of confusions. But to call them citizens is incorrect, because the Dutch laws call them subjects, in so far their nationality (citizenship) is concerned. In so far they are called "burgers", it means citi-zens, i.e. denizens of towns and cities. In Dutch, "burger" also means "civilian", as opposed to someone serving in an army. My point is that in so far we call Dutch nationals "citizens", this is a source of confusion, seen what the Dutch laws say about subjects as being different from citizens. E.g., to my great amazement I read on a Romanian forum a statement saying that someone became a Dutch citizen by getting registered as a citizen of a town. In fact, being registered as a citizen of a town does not make one a Dutch subject. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:59, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Briefly, "subject" is a word which leads to confusion outside the Netherlands, and "citizen" is a word which leads to confusion inside the Netherlands. Since we may presume that most readers of the discussed article are either former/actual inhabitants of the Netherlands or they aim to become so, we could reduce their confusion by using "subject" instead of "citizen", favoring thus what we may presume to be the majority of the readers. "Subject" may be an archaism outside the Netherlands, but I can assure you it is quite up to date in the Netherlands. In fact, using the word citizen in discussing the Dutch nationality with the Dutch institutions is a thing which one should avoid, because such institutions cannot easily be presuaded to change their minds about using other words instead of "subject". It is though correct to say that I am a Romanian citizen, even if the law article quoted above says that I count as a subject of another European country, which is a republic. Since re-public comes from "rex" (king) + "publikon" (people arround the...), meaning that the state is organized by the gathering of the people arround their king, we may say it is formally not so weird that I am refered by the Dutch laws as being a Romanian subject. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:59, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Mmm... well if "citizen" is never used in the Netherlands I'm prepared to stick with "subject". If we're not using "citizen" we should also avoid the cognate "citizenship" and use "nationality" instead. However I can't agree with you on the most likely readers point though. I don't know who's most likely to read this article but I think it ought to be written in a more removed style: ie someone who has never been to Holland but is interested to find out about the it. Blue-Haired Lawyer 18:58, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it is a bit more complicated, after the abolition of slavery "subject" and "citizen" meant basically the same thing in the European and American territory of the Kingdom, but there were lots of Asian Dutch nationals who were Dutch subjects not citizens, so the words did not include the same people. Mind you, as a result of this colonial history there are minorities who can feel insulted by this terminology. The Dutch word for citizen is used all the time, but it means "civilian" too and is perceived as having little "of this nationality" meaning. And indeed ,one can be a voting citizen on the municipal level, without having the Dutch nationality. The Republic is a RES PUBLICA, a public entity, and has nothing to do with kings. ThW5 (talk) 09:41, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

text: Staatsburger means either subject or citizen of a certain country, it is a conflation of these two concepts. You may say that staatsburger means a national of certain state (national as in nationality law). Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, on my English CV I have stated "Subject of the Kingdom of the Netherlands; citizen of the commune Zwolle. Citizen of Romania." Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:40, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Still, onderdanen (of a King, not of a Kingdom) is something I hear mainly in fairy tales and old stories. In everyday use nationaliteit is most used (or, but worse: the possession of a nationality is equated with having a passport of a country). But what you write on your EN-CV is up to you of course ;-). L.tak (talk) 21:06, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Citizen or subject?

message: The text of the Convention on the Reduction of Cases of Multiple Nationality and on Military Obligations in Cases of Multiple Nationality (Strasbourg, May 6, 1963) is on: http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en/Treaties/Html/043.htm Tgeorgescu 21:34, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Convention on multiple nationality

message: I have moved the following here:
Dutch law cannot determine who may or may not hold citizenship in another country.  The law of the particular other country concerned determines that.  For example, the constitution of Haiti says, in part:
:ARTICLE 11: Any person born of a Haitian father or Haitian mother who are themselves native-born Haitians and have never renounced their nationality possesses Haitian nationality at the time of birth.
:ARTICLE 12: Haitian nationality may be acquired by naturalization.
:ARTICLE 12 - 1: After five years of continuous residence in the territory of the Republic, any foreigner may obtain Haitian nationality by naturalization, in conformity with the regulations established by law.
From this, it appears possible for a Dutch national to obtain Haitian citizenship, acquire a Haitian passport, and travel as a Haitian.  What the Dutch government might think about the matter would have no impact on that. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 09:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: True, a country decides alone who are its citizens, because this is considered an internal affair of that specific country (since it is a sovereign state). Jessurun d'Oliveira, a former professor of immigration law, explained it on http://www.wereldomroep.nl/actua/nl/nederlandsepolitiek/act20070306_nationaliteit . The idea is that if a Dutch subject gets by his/her own free decision a foreign nationality (i.e. except not being asked for his/her aware consent, as in the cases of children automatically born with dual nationality, who cannot answer such questions because they cannot talk, and neither they have a say in this, nor their parents or legal representatives) and he/she does not fulfill the exceptions for keeping his/her Dutch nationality, then he/she has automatically lost the Dutch nationality in the moment his/her request to become a foreign national was granted. So, Haiti decides who are Haitian citizens, the Netherlands decides who are Dutch subjects. To suggest otherwise would mean that one state decides in the internal affairs of another state, which is generally taboo in international law. Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

text: To put it briefly, if a Dutch subject gets the Haitian nationality, he/she has lost the Dutch nationality (as a general rule). There are some exceptions from this general rule. Children born with multiple nationality cannot loose the Dutch nationality at their birth, since it is not their free choice to get another nationality. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:36, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Para moved here from Dual citizenship section 

message: Well, pondering about the issue of non-neutrality, I suggest the following compromise: transform the questionable viewpoints into footnotes. This way their share in the article will be reduced, without erasing such information from the article. I will apply such modifications to the article and if this is not the consensus, then revert my modifications. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:35, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Compromise

message: There is no Netherlands Nationality Act, but the Royal Law Concerning Being Dutch, or the Royal Law Upon Being Dutch. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:23, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "Royal Law Concerning Being Dutch" is incorrect English.  Het "Rijk" in the Dutch context is "Kingdom" or "Nation."  The correct English translation would thus be "Kingdom Law" or even better "Kingdom Act" since an Act is a rather formal, important legislative text that sets a precedent.  A Rijkswet is applicable to the entire Kingdom of the Netherlands and its territories.  A "wet" is only valid in the Netherlands but not necessarily in Curacao, Aruba or the islands.  "Concerning Being Dutch" is incorrect.  Nederlanderschap is a synthesis of various elements, such as Dutch nationality/citizenship, the state of being Dutch, etc.  The closest, most accurate translation in this case would be "on Netherlands nationality" since "nationality" and "being Dutch" are two (2) separate things.  Kingdom Act(or even "regarding") the Netherlands nationality is the most accurate English translation.212.147.13.121 (talk) 18:35, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the last comments mostly: it's IMO "Kingdom act on/regarding Dutch Citizenship". In English, the legal meaning of "nationaliteit" is best translated "citizenship", while nationality is a much more broader term (relating to the "being Dutch"). Citizenship and place of residence are fully separated things in English... L.tak (talk) 09:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: The Netherlands Nationality Act

message: The current paragraph on the Dutch nationality law should be broken into two (2) separate sections.
The subparagraph about the Latente Nederlanders should not be under the "By Descent" paragraph, but moved under the "Option" paragraph, since the new provision (i) for Latente Nederlanders is not formally Dutch nationality "by descent" -- otherwise that possibility would be under Article 3 and not under Article 6 of the RWN.
I merely write this in that it is confusing to the reader and also legally incorrect.  There is no reason for the Latente Nederlander option to be the largest topic under the "By Descent" section.  It belongs under the Option section. The way you have listed all the different situations for receiving Dutch nationality via option is good.  That is why the Latente Nederlander paragraphs should go there and not stay where they are presently.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.147.13.121 (talk) 18:26, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, legally incorrect is not the only determining factor. Factually those people are Dutch by decent; it is "just" implemented by law in the option procedure for legal reasons. Having said that, I can imagine it also under "Option" and have no objections. Let's wait a week or so and see how (/if) others think about it.... L.tak (talk) 09:51, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dutch nationality by descent and Dutch nationality by option 

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message: In 2009 dutch nationality law changed. Children acknowledged after birth but before the age of seven will get Dutch nationality upon acknowledgement 81.59.46.44 (talk) 20:12, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recognition after 2009