Talk:Charles Colson

message: Who's the mind reader?  This article is "chuck" full of Colson's innermost thoughts that prove he is not a CREEP. Some Wiki writer is wasting a very valuable talent.  Try reading Obama's mind.  Now that would be interesting. 75.36.145.34 (talk) 21:46, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: MIND READING

message: I think this article has several NPOV violations. I like the description of Colson's role in the Nixon adminstration and his prison time.
However, when it says "Colson also speaks for a five minute radio broadcast he began called Breakpoint which discusses contemporary issues from a Christian worldview.", I think that's an NPOV violation and instead it should say "from an evangelical Christian worldview" (or maybe "evangelical Protestant"), because without the qualifier it seems to support the evangelical view that only evangelicals are true Christians.
:I disagree. Looking at other similar articles, I did not find one that use the term "evangelical Protestant." Colson was one of the four co-signers of Richard D. Land's Land letter sent to President George W. Bush on October 3, 2002. The articles for Richard and James Kennedy use the term evangelical Christian. Articles for others like James Dobson, Dave Ramsey and others similarly use the terms evangelical, Christian, or both, but not "evangelical Protestant." frankywong2000 04:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Change made as discussed above. frankywong2000 02:50, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The name of the prison facility is Jester II, which was later renamed in honor of Carol Vance.  frankywong2000 23:33, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Dr. Byron Johson of the University of Pennsylvania was the principal researcher who conduced a study on the effectiveness of the faith-based initiative InnerChange at the Texas Jester II prison facility (later renamed in honor of Carol Vance).  He was a member of a small group led by Colson, who was invited by President George W. Bush to the White House on June 18, 2003, to present the study's findings.  In the presentation, Dr. Johnson explained that 171 participants in the InnerChange program were compared to a matched group of 1,754 inmates from the prison's general population.  The study found that only 8 percent of InnerChange graduates, as opposed to 20.3 percent of inmates in the matched comparison group, became offenders again in a two-year period.  In other words, the recidivism rate was cut by almost two-thirds for those who complete the faith-based program.  Those who are dismissed for disciplinary reasons or who drop out voluntarily, or those who are paroled before completion, have a comparable rate of rearrest and incarceration.  frankywong2000 23:33, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The favorable results of one of the faith-based programs at the Texas prison facility was documented in "Jesus Saves," Wall Street Journal, June 20, 2003, W15.  frankywong2000 23:33, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  See also pages 7-9 and 388-390 of Jonathan Aitken's Book Charles W. Colson: A Life RedeemedAitken, 2005, pp.8-9, available at https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=cHVam0Ufv10C&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=Innerchange+freedom+initiative+APAC+Aitken&source=bl&ots=ZxiedWaW-F&sig=AHxtTyuXhz5v76bH17tvzSSFyKI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDUQ6AEwA2oVChMIwa6l8Z-nxwIVQZgUCh1BDQ-P#v=onepage&q=Innerchange%20freedom%20initiative%20APAC%20Aitken&f=false which deal with this in much greater detail. Epideme (talk) 23:59, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

text: You guys are quite ignorant of recent history.  Perhaps you should do some WORK before attacking your fellow Wikipedian.  -- Pinktulip 07:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the original sentence "He was tasked by..." no longer appears in the article, I would like to remove the above references from the Kerry references section. frankywong2000 04:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Change made as discussed above. frankywong2000 02:50, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

text: On the contrary, there are social scientific findings which confirm that faith-based prison rehabilitation efforts have favorable results.  One of such studies was conducted by Dr. Byron Johson of the University of Pennsylvania on the faith-based initiative InnerChange at the Texas Jester II prison facility (later renamed in honor of Carol Vance).  The study was presented to President George W. Bush on June 18, 2003.  It found that only 8 percent of InnerChange graduates, as opposed to 20.3 percent of inmates in the matched comparison group, became offenders again in a two-year period.  In other words, the recidivism rate was cut by almost two-thirds for those who complete the faith-based program.  frankywong2000 23:33, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: That photo is prejudicial.  A link to http://www.thesmokinggun.com/ or something like that is fine, but mug shots are not fair when so many other bio pages have posed studio photos. -- Pinktulip 07:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now that there is both a publicity photo and the mug/profile shot, I think that the balance is acceptable. -- Pinktulip 03:39, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

text: If Chuck Colson were a Leftist, you wouldn't be objecting and the world would be a better place. 67.161.168.205 03:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Is there a Wikipedia-approved, more recent picture of Charles Colson that we can use?  The old picture is no longer available. Chip Unicorn 22:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As the original uploader of the mugshot, I definitely think it belongs here.  But while it illustrates a major aspect of Colson's career, that certainly isn't the only important thing about him.  May I suggest using in addition to the mugshot the cover of his book, Born Again, which has his picture; or maybe the arguably fair use promo shot that can be found at ? -- LegalBeagle 18:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay, after some effort on my part, there's now a slick book cover image of the post-Watergate Colson in the section dealing with that part of his career; and I have repositioned the mugshot to the section dealing with Colson's role in the Nixon Administration. LegalBeagle 00:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a superb job, and a great way to give his whole history.  Thank you!  Chip Unicorn 05:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're welcome, but there might be a catch.  There's a school of thought on Wikipedia that a "fair use" image shouldn't be used when a "free use" image is also available.  I take the position that if the images demonstrate different aspects of a subject, then it ought to be all right to use them together.  But don't be surprised if an administrator with a narrower view of things comes along and edits out the new image.  LegalBeagle 18:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The photo has to go...

message: "Colson's voice, archives from April 1969, was heard in the movie Going Upriver deprecating the anti-war efforts of John Kerry."
How does the clause "archives from April 1969" fit into the rest of this sentence. Is it a reference? Stroika 07:35, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What does this sentence mean?

message: The two paragraphs referencing Kerry, located in the Career after prison section, happened in Colson's Nixon years.
Colson's voice, archives from April 1969, was heard in the movie Going Upriver deprecating the anti-war efforts of John Kerry. Colson's orders were to "Destroy the young demagogue before he becomes another Ralph Nader."
"Pretty impressive performance", Colson told Martin Nolan after Kerry testified before a Senate committee. But to his boss, President Richard Nixon, as revealed on tape years later, Colson said, "This fellow Kerry that they had on last week. ... He turns out to be really quite a phony." Colson was recently referred to by Nolan as Karl Rove's "spiritual ancestor". Colson himself admitted to playing a role similar to Rove in his book, The Good Life.
I would do some further research about them. frankywong2000 14:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good to me. CWC 19:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Location of paragraphs referencing Kerry

message: Colson was a pretty active figure in the Nixon White House, I think that section should be expanded. --Awiseman 18:24, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am in the process of adding to the [[Charles Colson#Nixon Administration|Nixon Administration] section of the article. I noticed the paragraphs referencing Kerry, located in the Career after prison section, happened in Colson's Nixon years. I would do some research about them, and if so, move them to the Nixon Administration. frankywong2000 14:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Expand White House section

message: Please provide who has removed the link to intelligent design on this page.  There are administrators on the intelligent design page that I am afraid have conspired to remove this link to prevent any revisions of said the ID article.  The initial paragraph read as follows before I made the claim that Charles Colson was a proponent of ID: 
His later life has been spent working with his nonprofit organization devoted to prison ministry called Prison Fellowship. Colson is also a public speaker and author. He is the chairman of the Wilberforce Forum, a conservative Christian political and social think tank and action group active in the promotion of intelligent design in education and in biotechnology and bioethics issues, such as human cloning and stem cell research.
Now the new article has been omitted and just reads:  
His later life has been spent working with his nonprofit organization devoted to prison ministry called Prison Fellowship. Colson is also a public speaker and author.
This administration is corrupt and does not desire an objective viewpoint be displayed.  Please report this to the appropriate personel.  This is in violation of NPOV.  Coolasclyde 00:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't you talk to him? We have talk pages and other things. Admins become involved as admins only very much as last resort. I suggest you talk to WAS and discuss the matter with him. JoshuaZ 03:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh please. FeloniousMonk 03:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Conspirators Have Removed Charles Colson As A Proponent Of Intelligent Design

message: I've just deleted 4 external links: 2 clearly violate WP:BLP and WP:EL, 1 is dead (family.org) and 1 is out of date. I've also changed the descriptions of a few other links.
I think we should replace that last one, http://www.mediatransparency.com/story.php?storyID=91. Written in Nov 2005, it discusses a court case against the InnerChange Freedom Initiative from the anti-IFI POV. Last June, a federal district court judge ruled that IFI is unconstitutional. PF and IFI say they "will appeal the ruling all the way to the Supreme Court if necessary". See http://www.pfm.org/generic.asp?ID=2416. Does anyone have a good link for this? Perhaps something about this should go into the article body, not just the External links? And we definitely should update the Faith-based article accordingly.
Also:
# The "Focus on the Family: Chuck Colson Speaks" link is dead. I did some searching but couldn't find a new link to Colson's writing at that site. If anyone else has such a link, we should consider adding it.
# I couldn't check http://www.religionandsocialpolicy.org/news/article_print.cfm?id=2740 ("Texas town's faith-based prison plan questioned") because their web server isn't working. Bah.
# I don't see that http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKcolson.htm ("Colson bio at Spartacus") adds anything useful to our current article.
# The link to Colson's bio at pfm.org was broken (in more than one way); I've fixed it.
# Is http://www.cccu.org/news/newsID.83,parentNav.Archives/news_detail.asp ("CCCU: Charles Colson receives prestigious leadership award Feb. 15, 2001") worth keeping? The Mark O. Hatfield Leadership Award is small beer next to a Templeton Prize. Also, the linked press release doesn't even mention Colson's close friendship with Senator Hatfield in the 1970s!
# That student paper from FSU is very good. It examines an important aspect of Colson's post-prison work.
Cheers, CWC(talk) 13:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not appropriate to link to your own site as you did here and in several other articles. It is acceptable, as you have done above, to make a case for your links on the talk page of an article, and allow other neutral, experienced editors to decide if the link will benefit the article. Typically articles need more encyclopedic text, not links. ✤ JonHarder talk 02:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: External Links

message: User  recently added http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=2951 as a cite for our claim that "Colson has ... argued that Darwinism is used to attack Christianity". Unfortunately, in that Breakpoint talk Colson argues only that Charles Darwin himself, not contemporary Darwinism, "wanted to get rid of the Creator." I did some Googling, but couldn't find a better citation. Apparently, chapter 2 of How Now Shall We Live? discusses this topic. Can anyone supply a better source? CWC(talk) 08:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Colson vs Darwinism

message: I've added some detail about the famous "run over my own grandmother" line. Here's the full story, in quotes from chapter 5 of Born Again.
*The Wall Street Journal printed an article about Colson on 15 October 1971.
:Buried in the Journal account was a seemingly tongue-in-cheek quip attributed to an unnamed former staff member of Senator Saltonstall [for whom Colson once worked]: "Colson would walk over his own grandmother if necessary".
*In Summer 1972,
:the Watergate break-in sent reporters digging into the newspaper morgues for old clippings about Mr. Nixon's hatchet man. Most stories contained a rehash of all the old dirty-tricks charges and that I had once boasted I would run over my own grandmother if necessary to elect Nixon. I tried to steer a few reporters back to the original Wall Street Journal  article. "I never said it," I protested, but it made such colorful copy no one heard me.
*In August 1972, Colson wrote an angry memo which ended with a failed attempt to poke fun at himself using an obvious falsehood:
:last week's UPI story that I was once reported to have said that 'I would walk over my own grandmother if necessary' is absolutely accurate.
So Colson did use the line, but he was quoting a false news report! It's like a recursive urban legend ...
Cheers, CWC(talk) 14:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: last week's UPI story that I was once reported to have said that 'I would walk over my own grandmother if necessary' is absolutely accurate. - There you have it, in his own words, that it's true. Your claims that it is "tongue in cheek" are original research and do not belong in this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Raul654 (talk • contribs) 17:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read what I wrote, without assuming bad faith. The only research I did was to read and report what Colson wrote in Born Again. He says he did write those words in that angry memo, but he intended his readers (his staff) to recognise that the report was false and he was being deliberately "outrageous" to make a point. Why on earth did you jump to the false conclusion that my claim was original research? CWC(talk) 19:21, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Colson said it was true that he was reported to have said it; he didn't say it was true that he actually said it. There's a huge difference. --205.206.207.127 (talk) 03:43, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Additionally, Aitken (2005, pp.177-178) states "...it should be recorded that he never quite said the bombastic words attributed to him.  The grandmother allusion first surfaced in a front-page profile of Colson published by the Wall Street Journel on his fortieth birthday, October 16, 1971.  In that article, which also marked the first marked the appearance of the phrase 'hatchet man' in relation to Colson, a friend was quoted paying him a string of compliments.  However the friend added, 'But be careful, he's tough enough to run over his own grandmother.'  A few weeks later Colson was interviewed by a student contemporary from Brown University for the alumni magazine.  The question was asked, 'Chuck, an old classmate of yours tells me you're so tough that you'd run over your grandmother if necessary.  Is that so?'  'No,' responded Colson, 'I'd run around her.'  The magazine printed the exchange correctly, but a UPI report misquoted it and the rest is journalistic history."Aitken, 2005, pp.177-178 Epideme (talk) 00:05, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Colson vs Grandmother

message: If memory serves, Colson's notoriety in the early 1970s over the alleged grandmother quote was exacerbated by reports that he'd decorated his White House office with a US Army Special Forces slogan from their counterinsurgency activities in Vietnam:  "When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts and minds are sure to follow."  Memory, though, isn't the same as a published contemporaneous source.
Walter Dufresne (talk) 12:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Searching for Sourcing

message: In reading Colson's 1976 book, Born Again, I found some interesting snippets which might be useful in the article.
About Nixon, from chapter 6:
:Richard Nixon is a man of many parts, at times brutally cold, calculating, a manipulator of power as so many great leaders in history have been. But he is other things, too — at times an intensely compassionate human being who all his sixty-plus years held up his own mother as a saint and could never bring himself to point out to a secretary her misspellings. I once saw him re-dictate a letter to avoid a troublesome word, rather than embarrass the secretary.
About the Nixon White House culture, from chapter 5:
:In our small White House circle, machismo and toughness were equated with trust and loyalty; these were keys to the cherished kingdom guaranteeing continued closeness to the throne.
:Hubris became the mark of the Nixon man because hubris was the quality Nixon admired most. Small wonder that ambitious men like Magruder and Haldeman's other eager, unquestioning young lieutenants sought through tough talk and derring-do to prove their political virility to Nixon and those of us around him.
:Maybe it was bald stupidity to expect to get away with breaking into one of the most heavily guarded office buildings in Washington, but it sure was hubris.
About the profanity revealed on the tapes, from chapter 16:
:The tough talk was our way of showing Nixon we were good enough to stand up against the world, lieutenants worthy of front-line service.
He also has some interesting stuff about how Nixon and co saw themselves as little people fighting the awesome and oppressive power of the East-coast establishment (really!), but I haven't found any good quotes for that yet. It's quite an interesting book. Cheers, CWC(talk) 15:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: More quotes from Born Again

message: I thing that this article would be improved if a list of Charles Colson's books were added.  Only one of his books "How Now Shall We Live?" is in the article Lmielke359 02:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I like how it looks - if others want to add additional books in the future they can.  I like to table format Lmielke359 17:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Charles Colson Books

message: As stated in the article, Colson is opposed to the "emerging church movement" (often referred to as the postmodern movement" and has had some sort of debates with Brian McLaren. It would be nice if we could spell Brian's name correctly.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.229.12.40 (talk • contribs) 
:Good point. I've fixed the article. Thanks for the tip. CWC 09:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Brian McLaren]]

message: Considering that he spent less than 5 years with the Nixon administration, less than a year in jail, and now more than 30 years as a notable figure in Christianity (he published Born Again in 1976), doesn't it stand to reason that the article should lead with his impact on Christianity?  I'm not trying to eliminate the prominence of his involvement in Watergate, but I think it can be relegated to the second paragraph at this point. Ἀλήθεια 14:37, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: lead paragraph

message: The very first paragraph says he "was never charged with, or prosecuted for, any crime related to the Watergate break-in or its cover-up."  Then it goes on to say he "served seven months of a one-to-three year sentence in the federal Maxwell Prison in Alabama as the first member of the Nixon administration to be incarcerated for Watergate-related charges."
So either he was incarcerated for a crime he wasn't charged with, or there's a serious contradiction here. 71.219.174.42 (talk) 00:30, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Contradiction

message: Quote in first sentence comes from Timeline source; but that source reads "world's largest outreach..." not "nation's largest." Second citation has as its title "Nation's largest prison ministry...." Someone combined the two quotes to create a new hybrid quote, perhaps skeptical about Timeline's claim of "world's largest outreach."
Second and third sentences have no citation. I as a reader would like to know the source. I find the third sentence confusing: "He helped to create prisons whose populations come from inmates who choose to participate in faith-based programs."  Are there actually separate prisons whose populations are only faith-based members? I would like to know the source. --Profspeak (talk) 01:34, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prison Ministry Section 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Touch this Tinybirdie (talk) 02:18, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Netflix’s The Family