Talk:Cheese (recreational drug)

message: cheese!!!!!!!!!!! it reads like a hoax. - FrancisTyers · 20:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I dont think newspaper articles are good enough alone to write an article about Aspensti 15:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Grand, we should cite that then. Much more authoritative :) - FrancisTyers · 21:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: This sounds like the spoof from TV show 'Brass Eye' that resulted in questions being asked in the British Parliment about a made up drug called 'Cake', see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass_Eye. Hilarious. - Daviesi 14:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brass Eye 

message: Its amazing and unbelievable how adults come to this page and argue about weather or not the article about the drug "cheese" should be posted or not. As a teenager, i believe that the thing you should be debating about is how to solve the problem of minors using this new type of drug instead of arguing about the article. There are many teens out there that need your help and ya sure are not helping with this. I really encourage ya to leave this how it is and start helping this kids. Be and example to them. Thats what I am doing now. CHILD OF THE FATHER
:I guess economic opportunities are the way to go...something meaningful to do, in general.  Dispensing with the Prussian system of public education would be a good start, IMHO.--Joel 02:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia isn't for solving problems, it is supposed to be an unbiased data base of encyclopedic information.  No one thinks that 'cheese' is not a problem, they just want to be able to look up what it is on this website.  THIS ARTICLE JUST NEEDS TO BE CLEANED UP.  
No other drug articles leave out chemical COMPOSITION, EFFECTS of the drug, etc.  The article is sloppy, and if it isn't cleaned up, it needs to be merged with the "Heroin" article, or at least the "Acetaminophen" article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.126.66 (talk) 20:33, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The problem

message: The latest Dallas Morning News article says that 
* as many as 17 teens in Dallas County have died with heroin and diphenhydramine in their systems between 2005 and 2007 (it also discusses the basis for concluding that this means they overdosed on 'cheese') - that figure excludes the recent death of Fernando Cortez, whose results apparently aren't back yet
* of these 17 deaths, 11 victims' families say they used 'cheese'
* the deaths are all over Dallas County, including among students in the suburbs of Coppell, Garland, Mesquite, Cockrell Hill, and Grand Prairie
* diphenhydramine alone in high doses causes hallucinations and, in extreme cases, death - also that it may be popular as an additive to counteract the effects of coming down from the heroin, or to deal with/hide the runny nose from the snorting
* the deaths in Dallas County are evenly divided between Hispanic and non-Hispanic White - no deaths found outside these two ethnic groups
It also analyzes more deeply why the number of deaths from 'cheese' overdose was not so apparent initially, and discusses similarities between this and the rash of teen heroin deaths in Plano in the 1990s, in which at least some of the users had consumed heroin mixed with a diphenhydramine-containing sleep aid. 
I mention this here because the newspaper article needs to be mined further for details to add to the WP article. When I see the hard-copy version, I'll be able to identify page numbers. For now, see:
'Cheese' crisis runs deep, The Dallas Morning News, April 15, 2007
Note that the article does mention that one "lesson" learned from the Plano crisis is that people respond to numbers, so some people certainly can (and will) argue that the article's figures constitute a scare tactic or the like.
— Lawikitejana 02:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New article in ''DMN'' with additional info

message: My friend recently died of cheese, it is real. Here is the article before the toxicology http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/city/collin/allen/stories/042107dnmetcolonyOD.2eb5afd6.html 
It was found in her system and many people are starting to use it now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.178.200.225 (talk • contribs) 16:29, 4 May 2007  
:I am aware of the case you're writing about (so sorry you lost your friend). I haven't added it so far because the only printed source I have seen that confirms the connection to cheese heroin was her mother's blog, and Wikipedia generally doesn't rely on personal blogs for information. If an article comes out in the Morning News or a similar source saying that her death was from this form of heroin, it may be added to the article. 
:Don't take it hard if the name is not added at that point, though ... unfortunately, as more and more people die in these situations, it becomes less appropriate to keep adding the individual names, because an encyclopedia article isn't intended to become a memorial. That's what pages like her mom's blog serve to do, and while that's important in life, it's not what encyclopedias do. Lawikitejana 02:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not saying anything about the pricing/cut, but the "high" from Benadryl isn't comparable to an opioid high.  In fact, it's mostly described as highly unpleasant (see anticholinergic for the effects of antihistamine overdose). --Galaxiaad 16:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: It is real

message: This section should be a description of verifiable trends in cheese fatalities, not an aimless litany of anecdotal cases. If there were only one or two verifiable deaths due to cheese, this section would make sense. But it's just grown into a long list of non-notable drug users. We don't do this on other articles about recreational drugs, and shouldn't do it here. —ptk✰fgs 18:37, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deaths due to cheese 

message: The bit about price should not be there.
Prices fluctuate depending on where you are, availability etc.
Affixing a price to it is, as such, incorrect.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.21.197.156 (talk • contribs) 18:21, 24 July 2007
:The various news sources cite a price quite regularly, and Wikipedia sourcing is about what's verifiable. Lawikitejana 03:54, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: PRICE

message: This article is badly in need of an extensive check of its references. Scanning only the first few paragraphs of the article, I have found obviously inappropriate sources (such as the police powerpoint, complete with scary stock photos of a cemetary and an ominously silhouetted laboratory technician), as well as claims exaggerated or inaccurately paraphrased in the article. I intend to give it a thorough once-over, but that will take time. For the moment I am placing  on the article to alert readers that the article likely contains distorted or misinterpreted information. —ptk✰fgs 15:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PTK: By the police powerpoint, do you mean this:  ? Where is the stock photo of the cemetery? WhisperToMe 15:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was referring to this. —ptk✰fgs 16:36, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh! I haven't seen this before! WhisperToMe 16:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

text: That's a great brief -- good find. Looks like it will be a good source for bolstering some other cites in the article. —ptk✰fgs 21:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accuracy and reliable sources 

message: I just finished making several edits to the section on deaths. I cut down the early paragraphs, removing details such as the students' exact schools (that's getting less important and never meant that much to people outside the local area anyway) and details that were put in when the deaths were news and it was hard to sort out what would be important in the long run. I also tried to clear up some of the timeline, as it were, with additional details and shorter, more precise transitions. Come to think of it, an actual timeline at the end might help, possibly beginning with 2004 now that reports show it probably began that early — we can always note that the 2004 deaths weren't noted until later investigations — after all, part of the confusion comes from the fact that deaths occur in one month but aren't confirmed as cheese-heroin-linked until weeks later, after new deaths have happened. The updates on the death toll could be moved there if people think they fit better. The other changes I made were to (1) add new deaths (keeping with our current practice of not naming so as to avoid memorializing) (2) add today's report from the Tarrant County Medical Examiner's office showing that additional deaths in Tarrant and Denton counties also are linked, and (3) create headings dividing that section into meaningful chunks. For now, I've taken out the "confusing" tag, having read and re-read my edits, but anyone who feels it's still confusing can obviously replace the tag, or better yet, edit out the confusion! I'm not entirely satisfied with the subheadings I wrote, as they're not parallel, but I think it's a start. Lawikitejana 03:45, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits to try to clear up confusion 

message: By the description, the alleged drug would contain so much more acetaminophen (APAP/paracetamol to non-USA readers) that the deaths would be likely attributed liver failure due to acetaminophen overdose! Why was acetaminophen often not found, but diphenhydramine and heroin were? IT'S BENADRYL, YOU IDIOTS!!! Antihistamine/cheap sleeping pill, used by opiate abusers for two-in-one effect:
a) antihistamines alleviate a typical itch associated with opiates and opiods, especially the more contaminated and less potent kinds (like codeine)
b) depressants potentiate opiates (making abuse cheaper but more dangerous)
Opiate+diphenhydramine use has been documented as wide-spread in many countries for decades. It's also verifiably much more deadly.
Why were most deaths without traces of acetaminophen, but most of those kids caught with it had tylenol pm with trace amounts of heroin? Because only a curious and dumb kid would ever be *able* to snort something with acetaminophen, especially that much of it (the mixture would be ~90% acetaminophen); 1) it's one of the foulest-tasting chemicals known to man, 2) with such low content of actual drugs, it would have to be snorted by the tablespoons.
Kids: don't do 'cheese'. The drug here discribed is more likely to put you up for a liver transplant than actually ever get you "high". 
Parents: find time for your kids. Liver transplants are more expensive, in the end. Plus, you probably love the buggers, right?
DEA: get someone with a decent pharmacology/chemistry education already. People are laughing at you. Meanwhile, others are also dying. Considering your budget, something ain't right here!
128.195.186.78 10:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding the stuff about the DEA, this is Wikipedia:Original research - We want published resources from people with PHDs. The DEA already knows about the drug, as shown by the pages about the drug. WhisperToMe 14:26, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  DEA Daft as Usual 

message: It might seem sick to be slightly amused by this article, but like the person above who mentions Brasseye, I was surprised to find the cheese drug isn't a hoax.  And there are better sources than the article has at the mo, I'll add some later. Sticky Parkin 11:13, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: sources

message: ...is a little misleading: "contained between 2% and 8% heroin, in contrast to the 30% commonly found in black tar heroin." OK, but that 30% is counting only as the diacetylmorphine content. If one considers all acetyled morphine to be heroin: monoacetylmorphine as well, that is about another 50% (so about 80% heroin). Add the unreacted morphine content and it is quite a bit of active opioid content in black tar heroin compared to "cheese." 4.255.53.90 (talk) 16:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Having noticed this more than 15 years later, I don´t know whether the original poster will read this text. However, the comment is misleading. Heroin is the former trade name of diamorphine. 3- and 6-MAM are mostly metabolites of heroin, though the primary metabolite is morphine, since the acetyl groups are eliminated rapidly. You get heroin by acetylating the morphine, but for diamorphine (heroin) to be pure, the reaction must be carried out properly. If the acetylation is botched, you get more 3- and 6-MAM, so the heroin is less pure, but more toxic. Also, once the acetyl groups are removed after consuming heroin, no matter how pure, the remaining metabolites, 3- and 6-MAM, in the body are responsible for the other negative effects. 2A02:AB04:2B5:7200:D40E:6227:6561:642 (talk) 09:47, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparison to black tar heroin purity 

message: Shouldn't this article be deleted?  It's not really a new drug.  It's mostly heroin.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.236.252.231 (talk) 23:49, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion?

message: I was going to correct "head lines" to "headlines" in the sentence "The drug made many news head lines.." ...until I noticed the word play possibilities with "lines" in connection with an insufflation substance. I say, Well played, Whomever. rowley (talk) 19:13, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keeping the Lines 

message: * http://web.archive.org/web/20110519202009/http://www.dallasisd.org/pd/cheesePowerpoint.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6KxM4IB6Q
* http://web.archive.org/web/20100714014853/http://www.dallasisd.org/pd/PublicInfoBulletinCHEESE.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6KxM0TOL1
* http://web.archive.org/web/20110519202100/http://www.dallasisd.org/pd/PublicInfoBulletinCHEESE-Span.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6KxLvbCYP
WhisperToMe (talk) 17:11, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  DISD documents 

message: This article is moronic right down to dissolved heroin being referred to as monkey juice. It reminds me of reports about LSD making a man think he was a glass of orange juice and the story of jenkem. Law enforcement types with zero education about pharmacology, or any basic science understanding, create these moral panic stories to keep the equally misinformed public on-board with their failed policies. Wikipedia is better than this. This article should be deleted.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.88.43.62 (talk) 21:34, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not moronic at all. I used cheese heroin for over 10 years and knew many people who also used it and some that still do. Only thing they got wrong was you do not use diphenhydramine with acetaminophen because the acetaminophen clumps up too much and doesn't snort very well and doesn't seem to absorb ad well inside the nose. There were some people who did not like using the sleep aid to cut the Tae or they didn't have any at the time and would use what we called monkey water, not juice. But you would dissolve some tar in as little of water as possible and the use a syringe with no needle or a dropper to squirt the liquid up your nose. I have done it 100s of times and seen it done 100s of times 13mrowlate (talk) 16:44, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monkey Juice? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: http://web.archive.org/web/20081023114929/https://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/aldia/locales/stories/DN-cheesemothers_29dia.ART.State.Edition1.42142bf.html
WhisperToMe (talk) 20:34, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spanish sources 

message: I used cheese heroin for over 10 years, and so did many of my friends. I am going to try and clear up any confusion on what it is exactly. 
    The basic formula for cheese is definitely not black tar heroin with Tylenol pm. The whole purpose of cheese is a quick easy way to snort black tar heroin. Some people don't like needles, and smoking BTH is hard on the lungs, and you're getting like .04 of a gram per hit, so you have to take hits constantly. The acetaminophen in Tylenol pm causes it to clump up, and makes it almost like a paste that takes forever to dry out and then is difficult to crush fine enough to snort it. Plus acetaminophen is really bad for your liver. In my 10+ years using cheese I never encountered anyone who used anything with it in it. What is generally used is sleep aids with just diphenhydramine like simply sleep or sominex. It absorbs very well when snorted, and is easy to get a nice fine powder with it. Other people use mannitol, it's all referred to as cheese. It's basically just powder BTH.
    The talk about the very low purity levels is misleading. You start with the same quality of black tar heroin as anyone else gets. But you are adding the sleep aid as cut, which gives you a larger amount of drug that is now lower concentrated purity. For example it is common to shoot .2g - .3g of tar when used IV. It is also common to snort .2g worth of tar in a line of cheese, it just also has the added amount of cut in the line as well, making it weigh a lot more than .2g, but it's still all snorted in one line, but if when sampled is a lower purity per weight ratio, but you are snorting more weight. Sorry I'm having trouble finding the right words to explain it, but I hope that made sense. 
    Also cheese made of tar and sleep aid is the bottom of the barrel form of cheese. When possible people like to use prescription drugs as cut.  Alprazolam(xanax) is the most commonly used cut other than sleep aid, but back when pills were everywhere we'd use oxycodone, klonopin, dilaudid, and would even combine it with methamphetamine and cocaine as well. So the stuff was plenty strong, and would get you high, despite it's reputation as being really low purity. I'm sure there were/are plenty of people who would buy premixed cheese that could have been cut to hell, but I myself never bought powder, nor did anyone I know. You bought tar, and turned it into a powder to snort it. 12mrowlatemymetalworm12 (talk) 03:18, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a lot of information on the topic, that I'm sure is true to an extent (that is to say, I believe you), but unfortunately, your first-hand experience is not a reliable source. If you can find reliable (per WP standards) sources supporting the information you described, please mention them here or add citations to the article. Otherwise we really can't do anything with this. WPscatter t/c 03:21, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cheese is %100 real, it's not low purity, and it's not used to get kids hooked 

message: I would recommend stating that cheese as a drug can also reference to a cannabis strain called Dinafem cheese Darkdeath0123 (talk) 17:00, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dinafem cheese