Talk:Mestizo/Archive 1

message: There Are mestizos of significance in Argentina?  It was my understanding that the majority of Argentinians are of purely European background.  -- Zoe
Officially mestizos are about 3% or so of Argentinians, but some people place the 'real' number closer to 15 or 20%. It's all a matter of how you define these groups. In metropolitan Buenos Aires, the population is heavily European, but in the "hinterlands" there is a fairly large mestizo element.
The Argentinian "gauchos" (is there an article on them?) were often of mestizo origin as well. And they are a huge element of Argentinian national identity.
:Syncrolecyne
:The Argentinian goverment itself states that around 13% of it's population is local mestizos native to Argentina. These Argentinian mestizos are classified as "Argentinians" (European) to distinguish them from the immigrant mestizos of neighbouring Chile, Paraguay, etc. This is what causes the mestizo population to decrease to 3%. But the actual number of both local and immigrant mestizos combined is probably between 13% to 18%. Al-Andalus 05:12, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: This press article is based on a scientific study using uniparental testing with predictably skewed results. Uniparental testing to determine race is in it's infancy but what has been established is that testing needs to be done at an individual level to determine overall admixture in a person thereby giving a better picture of the ethnic genetic components in the test population. Matrilineal DNA alone cannot be used to determine a person's race or the number of mixed people in a population because the concept of race is subjective. 56% of Argentinians may have detectable Amerind ancestry according to this study but not all are Mestizos.-CPellegrini 09:46, 21 May 2005(UTC)
Re: the opinion of 2005 CPellingrini.  I wouldn't expect any different answer.  They are in the stage of Denial.--192.44.136.103 16:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

text: It's not an opinion and infact it is you in denial. I'm explaining that race is as much sociological as it is biological and is more subjective than just haplogroups and MtDNA. For example, in North America many 'whites' have Black, indigenous and other non European ancestry as shown in various DNA studies but are still considered 'white' and even then many European groups like the Sicilians are often not considered 'white' because of their swarthier skin tones so to say that 56% of a whole country is 'mestizo' based on nothing more than a newspaper article is bullshit. -CPellegrini 05:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mestizos in Argentina

message: A greater proportion of Argentina's population is composed of more Mestizos than previously thought. The country's majority in fact.
Source: [El 56% de los argentinos tiene antepasados indígenas]
Translation by: Al-Andalus
Clarín (Buenos Aires, Argentina), 16 January 2005.
56% of Argentineans have Native American ancestors
They determined it through genetic analysis. The rest of the population is in its majority of European origin. Of those who possess Native American markers in their DNA, only 10% are pure Native American.
Unknowingly and ingrained in their DNA, Argentineans carry a message of their ancestors. And in 56% of cases those who bequeathed it simply left written just one piece of data: their Amerindian origins. Of the current population, 44% descend primarily of European ancestors, but the rest —the majority— have a lineage partially or totally indigenous.
This is how a study by the “Servicio de Huellas Digitales Genéticas de la Universidad de Buenos Aires” (Service of Genetic Fingerprints of the Univerity of Buenos Aires) determined it, from the analysis of cases in 11 provinces. “What lays revealed is that we’re not as European as we think ourselves to be”, says Daniel Corach, director of the Service, professor in the school of Genetics and Molecular Biology of the Faculty of Pharmacy and Biochemistry of the UBA and investigator of the Conicet. In a second stage —together with Andrea Sala, investigator of the Conicer, and Miguel Marino, scholar of that institution— they analysed pure indigenous communities.
As of 1992, and taking random DNA samples from a total of 12 thousand persons, the scientist could pull apart at the strings of genes to reconstruct the history of the population that lives in our country. They wanted to know how much the original population had contributed in the formation of contemporary Argentina. Now, with the study finished, it seems that that contribution was quite a lot. 
The analysis implicated the reading of codes inscribed in the mitochondrial DNA, which is contributed by all mothers, and in the Y Chromosome, which only men possess and which is bequeathed by their fathers. And, that by not combining during the union to create a new being, remain unchangeable in the different generations. The Argentinean investigators, in charge of the study, knew where to look in that puzzle of genetic codes. The method applied is not new. It has been in use since the mid 90’s. It is reduced to a single cell, in reality to their nucleus and mitochondria, two sites where molecules of DNA are found. Because, ultimately, everything is centred in those letters that designate a molecule composed of two chains of chemical units (Adenine, Thymine, Guanine and Cytosine). The message depends on where these are positioned. One would have to think of it as an alphabet of four letters which form words. The message gives detail of the organism. 
In that long line of combinations that form the Y Chromosome, there is a marker known by the letters and numbers: DYS199. In that location, in the case of Native Americans, there appears a typical characteristic —and scientifically proven— that all members of that community posses and which was verified in great numbers of Argentinean men. But that genetic characteristic, explains the scientist, doesn’t necessarily manifest itself with any visible physical feature. "[It is] from there that it was possible to sustain for such a long time the belief that the majority of the Argentine population was of European origin", says Corach. 
Later, the team searched in a determined area in the mitochondria, also in a region that remains unchangeable and that identifies itself as HVR I. The result was the one expected: the majority of the sample had a non-Amerindian maternal ascendant. That is to say, there were mainly European mothers (53,3%). 
The combination of these two data gave that there was admixture and that in 56% of cases there was an indigenous legacy in some place in the DNA. Of this segment of the population, only 10% were pure Native Americans, without any European component. 
The surprise for Corach is explained as such: "It is believed that the two large genocides of the native population finished with 30,000 persons. Presumably there was more population. What probably happened is that they had descendants whom are still present. I believe that the European component is overestimated". 
The scientist sustains that "the sample of the study is representative because it includes the urban population but not only of the Federal Capital", he explains. "If we analyse the population of the Barrio Norte it will give us a higher percentage of European origin ". 
The method came from a scientific advance: for a few years it has been known that part of the history remains registered in the genetic material that humans carry. And such novelty permits to reconstruct the famous "where do we come from" of humanity. 
In the beginning it could only be done with the material contributed by women, which is contained in the mitochondria. From there the polemic revelation the mothers of all men was the “Mitochondrial Eve”, an African woman. By the mid 90’s, the masculine component could be analysed, inscribed in the Y Chromosome. 
Now, Corach and company want to find out how this population moved. Meanwhile the fundamental myth is put to question. Will that part of tour guides and encyclopaedias that say that over 85% of the population of Argentina are of European origin have to be changed?
Al-Andalus 08:50, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This press article is based on a scientific study using uniparental testing with predictably skewed results. Uniparental testing to determine race is in it's infancy but what has been established is that testing needs to be done at an individual level to determine overall admixture in a person thereby giving a better picture of the ethnic genetic components in the test population. Matrilineal DNA alone cannot be used to determine a person's race or the number of mixed people in a population because the concept of race is subjective. 56% of Argentinians may have detectable Amerind ancestry according to this study but not all are Mestizos.-CPellegrini 09:46, 21 May 2005(UTC)
Re: the opinion of 2005 CPellingrini.  I wouldn't expect any different answer.  They are in the stage of Denial.--192.44.136.103 16:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

text: It's not an opinion and infact it is you in denial. I'm explaining that race is as much sociological as it is biological and is more subjective than just haplogroups and MtDNA. For example, in North America many 'whites' have Black, indigenous and other non European ancestry as shown in various DNA studies but are still considered 'white' and even then many European groups like the Sicilians are often not considered 'white' because of their swarthier skin tones so to say that 56% of a whole country is 'mestizo' based on nothing more than a newspaper article is bullshit. -CPellegrini 05:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Genetic reasearch reveals Argentina to be a nation of Mestizos

message: Al-Andalus 13:27, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Chart of Overall Latin American Demographics

message: I think this article would benefit from a discussion of the term Mestizo as applied to culture, out side of the more narrow racial definition. See for example Carlos Fuentes' analysis of Latin (and Spanish) culture as "mestizo". Camipco 21:08, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mestizo culture

message: I have never heard of these Miravalles, but, from memory, the Spanish diplomat Diego Prado y Colón de Carvajal is the current duke or count of Moctezuma and a descendant of Christopher Columbus.
--Error 23:38, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mestizo aristocrats

message: Seeing the mention of a Cherokee ancestry for Johnny Depp, I am reminded that, for some reason, while other Indian tribes became extinct or mixed but separated, the Cherokee mixed a lot with White colonizers and, as a result, a sizeable part of Americans have some Cherokee ancestry (I am also reminded of Tina Turner).
I guess that most of the North American mestizos come from Cherokees (the rest of the White/Black mixes with Indians are probably classed as some kind of Indian).
There is also a phenomenon of (modern) Americans claiming a (false) Cherokee ancestry because it is in vogue.
Somebody more knowledgeable could extend over it.
--Error 23:58, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Cherokee

message: How come there's a separate article for the word Métis? The modern ethnic group in North America is already dealt with in Métis people, and the use of this French word to refer to people elsewhere is explained under Mestizo. If that article is intended to refer to anyone of part-French ancestry from Indochina to the Pacific to the Caribbean, then I think it should be much more explicit about that. //Big Adamsky 21:37, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know why there's a separate article, but it doesn't matter. A single article would be preferable. The answer is probably that the articles developed independently. John FitzGerald 14:24, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Métis and Métis people

message: Mestiços in Portuguese are only used to refer to mixed Portuguese and African. Not Portuguese and Asian... Macanese where known as Macanese... I believe. When someone seems a mixed Portuguese and chinese one calls it macanese, not mestiço! Maybe defined as one... but it is not a usually used word, that also applies to East Timorese and Indians. Or the chinese or Timorese natives persieve them as such?--Pedro 16:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The information about East Timor, making comparisons with the Philippines is complete drivel - yes, mestiços like José Ramos Horta were involved with the independence movement, but most Timorese leaders did 'not have any European ancestry. While Portuguese speakers are a minority, most of them will be Timorese with no Portuguese ancestry at all - or, like Mari Alkatiri,  Muslim Arabs of Yemeni descent! Quiensabe 02:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: mestiços in Asia

message: aren't people who americans think of as typical mexicans/latinos all mestizo? are mestizos the dominant ethnic group in latin america? the article seems to represent mestizo as being a distinct ethnic heritage when i thought that the majority of latin americans were mestizo. if not, what ethnic group(s) are latin americans descended from? Joeyramoney 18:43, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  i'm confused 

message: I read the article and it's cool, the only issue, that is misleading is Jennifer Lopez listed as a Mestizo. I mean common, she is not a mestizo?. Is she of or part Amerindian Blood? I don't know?? To to be honest with you, I really think that she is of African and European ancestry (Mullato) ! correct me if wrong.-- Ramirez 11:43 , August 23, 2006. (UTC)
:Do you have any references to back up your comments? --Siva1979Talk to me 05:28, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  J-LO is not a Mestizo 

message: To: Mr Al Andalus! I've got a Question for you? There are so many POV Statements in the Filipino section. There is to many  self point of views and not enough sources to back it up, including Mestizo is about Beauty and Corrupt government etc.. Firstly i'd like to asked you, What is a Spanish Mestizo or A Chinese Mestizo in the Philippines? Do you have qualifiaction as Human Demographer! or Population Demographer!.There is No such thing as a Spanish Mestizo or A Chinese Mestizo. It's a made up word. Mexicans and the rest of Latin Americans are a predominant Mestizo nation; we don't call our self Spanish-Mestizos. We simply identify ourselves as Mexicans or by our countries name. Mestizo is a colonial term for Spanish and European origin! mixed indigenous ancestry.  Secondly, About Jose Rizal he is not a Chinese-mestizo. He doesn't come from China. He comes from Filipinas. He is a Filipino-Mestizo of Chinese or Spanish origin or what ever!. It should be called Filipino-Chinese Mestizo or Filipino-Spanish Mestizo. Who ever evented the word Spanish-Mestizo? or Chinese-Mestizo? Before you start adding informations! Can you please cited your info. We are trying to Create a Encylopedia here, not about Self point of views to suit our needs. And also Mestizo is not about Beauty!! that's just a POV statement--Ramirez 02:31 am, October 21, 2006. (UTC)
:You are right, mestizo means mixed European/Indigenous...except in the Philippines. In the early colonial period of the Philippines it shared this meaning, but with the advent of a larger population of mixed Chinese/Filipinos than mixed Spanish/Filipinos (not to mention any other ancestry mixed with Filipino, eg Japanese), the term lost all connotations to any specific race mixture in the Philippines. Today, mestizo in the Philippines means anyone of mixed ancestry , and doesn't even necessarily mean mixed race, since as you yourself so cleverly pointed out, Chinese and Filipinos are both Asians. In any case, the population of all types of mestizos in the Philippines was and is so small that there was never any need in comming up with an infinite number of terms to denote different race mixtures as was done in Latin America's castas terminology. Mestiso was, and remains, the only term used in the philippines for any Filipino mixed with another race or foreign ancestry. They were merly separate by terming them either Spanish-Filipino-mestisos or Chinese-Filipino-mestisos, etc...
:As for the connotations of mestizo to beauty in Filipino parlance, you only need google the terms beauty, philippines, and mestizo together to come up with hundreds of sources, including articles, sites, and forums that expandi into what is apparently termed the "mestizo theory" of beauty in the Philippines. To save you some time, here are a few links 
:Also, the Filipino language word is mestiso, not mestizo. Al-Andalus 07:14, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too Many Weasel words and POV Statements in Filipino Mestizo article

message: This section is full of essay-style contemplation and weird statements.
*"The legacy of the fiefdoms is the reason why Latin America is constituted by so many small nations, despite nearly identical cultures." Yeah, sure they are "nearly identical".
*"A Spaniard or Portuguese is actually a Mediterranean amalgamation, created by rape, plunder, and conquest, consisting of Celtic, Greek, Roman, German, Arab, (Moors and Berbers) Black Africans, Jewish, and Gypsy bloodlines. Were a "Mestizo" in Mexico can trace his ancestry neatly and relatively purely to the Aztecs and a Siberian land bridge; a Spaniard is a truly complete Mestizo mystery. Not very neutral text IMHO.
*"In large part and for the definitive worse, Latin American "Mestizos" have adopted the backward Latin culture and religion of Europe." More neutral assertations.
*"For Spain and Portugal, pillaging South America and Mexico for commodities like gold, silver, and sugar in a mercantilist economic structure for nearly 3 centuries, achieved no long-term competitive advantage over other Western European cultures like those of Britain, Holland, and Germany. Today, Spain and Portugal are two of the poorest countries of Western Europe." What is a 'long-term competitive advantage' according to the editor, then? Spain was perhaps the most powerful state in Europe in the 16th century.
*"For Latin America, adopting the culture of Europe's most backward nations..." <yawn>
*"...as the countries came to resemble backward European locations like Spain and Sicily." Sure. 
*"However, as most of Latin America's current leadership has stronger educational ties with the United States, UK, and Holland, the culture is now changing and economic growth is escalating." So, US/UK/Holland good, Spain/Portugal bad? Or what is the reasoning behind this nonsense?
Somebody please revise the article. --Neofelis Nebulosa (моє обговорення) 11:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Race and Poverty in Mexico, Central America, and South America