Talk:Sammamish people

message: I'm creating this section so that people can discuss the various explanations for the word "Sammamish" and alternate names for the Sammamish people and conduct follow-up research to hopefully find an authoritative definition. I will note that while the definition varies from place to place, the name used by the Sammamish themselves was tsah-PABSH, which I provided earlier. If anyone knows the IPA spelling of the original Lushootseed word, they should add it to the article. The word tsah-PABSH was transliterated into both "Sammamish" and "Simumps," both of which were used for the group of people along the Sammamish River. The sources I've cited agree that PABSH is a different form of the suffix ABSH that was used for other people in the area. The same ending was transliterated in a slightly different way in words such as "Skykomish" and "Snohomish." A prominent example of the use of this suffix is the Duwamish (Du-ABSH). ABSH and PABSH both literally mean "people." "Du" means "inside," so Duwamish means "people of the inside," or the people living inside what is Elliott Bay and the river and lake system (including Lake Washington) that feed into the bay.
So "tsah-PABSH" means "people of the tsah," whatever tsah is. The sources I can find suggest that tsah means either "meander" or "willow." The interesting thing is that the historical location of tlah-WAH-dees is very close to a meander or sharp bend (also known as an oxbow) in the Sammamish River now known as "Wayne Curve." Willows grow on that spot as they do in many meanders. It seems likely to me that the word "tsah" referred to a meander with willow trees, and so the competing definitions are not actually at odds. In the absence of an authoritative source that agrees--anybody reading this know of one?--I believe we should provide both definitions so that people can make up their own mind.
Given this, it seems highly unlikely to me that "Sammamish" means "hunter." Lushootseed peoples and villages were typically named for a local natural feature. What's more, fishing was by far the most common source of food, and it seems highly unlikely that a group in this area would be named for their hunting ability. It is particularly unlikely in the case of the Sammamish, who were seen as a relatively low-status people and were not known for their hunting skill. It's also worth pointing out that while this definition is commonly used by sources such as the city of Sammamish and Marymoor Park--and even the Wikipedia article for the city of Sammamish, it is never sourced. I think in the absence of a source for this etymology that it should be removed, and we should stick with "willow" or "meander" as the possible definitions.
The other names given to the Sammamish are variations on the word "Squoh," which is most familiar to people today in the name of the city of Issaquah. This word was used to refer to all the same people that were known as the Sammamish. "Squak" is one variation of this word, and it is variously translated as "swamp" or "snake." The meaning and etymology of this word is completely separate as far as I can tell from the available sources, but it's possible that the simultaneous use of various forms of "Sammamish" has caused some confusion as to the meaning of the words. It is interesting to note, however, that the shape of a meander is often described as looking like a snake. So it's quite possible for the same people to be called "people of the meander" and "people of the snake." As the village location, just downstream from a meander, was quite swampy, it's not hard to imagine how the second connotation of this word developed. Native people would talk about the people of the swampy bend in the river, sometimes calling them "people of the snake" and sometimes "people of the willow meander." White settlers confused the two meanings and mistook it to mean "swamp." This is all supposition, however, and would be original research even if supported by primary evidence. In the absence of authoritative explanations by existing sources, I think it's best to mention all sourced definitions for common historical names for the Sammamish people. Llachglin 20:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Naming

message: I made some edits, including some reversions. While I appreciate the additions, particularly of sourced citations, some of the additions created awkward phrasing, repeated points made elsewhere, made unverifiable claims, or were overly POV.
* "In many other ways, they are Coast Salish." -- This comment was redundant, as you already mentioned in the same paragraph that the Sammamish were Lushootseed, a division of the Coast Salish. I kept this information but moved it to the introduction sentence.
* Your comments about their language were repetitive. I replaced them with a single sentence talking about their dialect. I realize that my language uses the past tense; however, it is sadly true that few people of any tribe currently speak Lushootseed.
* I clarified their relationship to the Duwamish by saying they were closely related and that some people consider them a sub-group. This is better than a discussion of the complex interrelation between tribes and the difficulty of drawing clear lines between groups of people that changed gradually from place to place while retaining many similarities. That discussion is important, but probably more fitting for a section in the overall Coast Salish article. In an article about a specific people, it is out of place.
* I removed a reference to the "Large Lake," because it's not a common name for Lake Washington and ended up demanding a complicated and awkward sentence structure to explain what it is. Another reference to the "people of the Large Lake" was retained, because it adds information relevant to this article.
* I removed a clause that stated that numerous other Indians did not accept the validity of the treaty, because it's not relevant for this article, and it made the sentence in question difficult to read.
* I removed references to "si'ab" because they don't add anything to the article. It's enough to say that the leaders were "putative" and not chiefs in the common understanding of the term. I do think it's worth discussing what a "si'ab" is in articles about nominal chiefs such as Seattle and Leschi--it just doesn't belong here.
* I removed the reference to Chief Leschi because it is not clear that Leschi was actually present during the Battle of Seattle, and his involvement in those events is controversial. Leschi's involvement is peripheral to an article on the Sammamish in any case. Given the lack of clear sources about exactly who was involved in the raid, I removed any reference to its leaders.
* I re-added a reference to the Puget Sound War, because relocation was an open question until active resistance by the native population had been eliminated. If anyone can find more specific references about specific acts to remove Sammamish from their traditional lands, these should be added.
* I combined the two final paragraphs to include all known tribes to which the Sammamish were affiliated. I did not include the Duwamish because I can't find sources for that. However, the close relationship between these groups is made clear in the rest of the article. I included the reference to the Snoqualmie under the assumption that your cited source explicitly mentions them, even though it's not clear to me if that is the case.
* I removed the information at the end about the treaty. The treaty was already mentioned, as was the fact that the Sammamish as a tribe were signatory. I removed the claim that no Sammamish individuals were signatory because the source in question does not address that issue. The treaty lists several indidividuals, but their tribe is not made clear. Without other cited sources, it's impossible to say whether it is true that no Sammamish signed the treaty. My sense of the situation is that the Sammamish were included as a sub-group of the Duwamish against their wishes and without any Sammamish signatures, and that the signature of Chief Seattle was deemed sufficient to include them. This is a case in the long history of the White population defining native tribes in a way that enabled them to ignore native rights. Given this, it's no wonder many Sammamish (and others) resisted. However, a "sense" of what happened is not equal to a cited source, so I removed the claim. If we can source it, I suggest adding it to the prior paragraph about the treaty dispute.Llachglin 23:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent changes