Talk:Ali Pasha of Ioannina

message: I can't see a reason why this small section is needed. It seems completely irrelevant with the rest.Alexikoua (talk) 09:09, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I google translated the following material: A long blond hair, blue eyes, filled with fire and brilliant mind, natural eloquence ... Pouqueville,History of regeneration of Greece, including the precise events since 1740 until 1824.Volume I, Paris, 1824. page 21.  Stupidus Maximus (talk) 18:26, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe we could add the following before the text:
*According to contemporary scholars...
--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:32, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Physical description

message: has link to one grand Vezier at the beggining of 20. century. I do not believe that Ali Pasha had son that lived so long. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:11, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Salih pasha 

message: I propose a merge of the above into a simple "Sources". --Sulmues (talk) 14:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, ok, if that's the case it's fine to keep them this way. --Sulmues (talk) 14:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge of sources and further reading

message: Perhaps this should still be included: "In 1788 Ali Pasha's troops razed the Aromanian metropolis of Moscopole." The article on Moscopole does not mention any early 19th century attack by Ali Pasha.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 21:08, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moscopole 

message: It would be very nice to support this article with map of territory controled by Ali Pasha.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:58, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: Text of the article has lot of words that should be avoided in texts of the articles on wikipedia.Here is link to wikipedia policy about words that should be avoided and I will list below only those words that are stated in this policy, although I believe that there are more of them in the text of the article but not listed in the policy:
Peacock terms 
"unpopular Ottoman Sultan Mahmud II", “Hanko a woman of extraordinary character”, “Ali became a famous brigand”, “always in the field fought for the "Sultan and Empire" with great bravery”, “famous rebel Pazvantoğlu”, “maintained close relations and corresponded with famous leaders”, “he famously proclaimed” 
Weasel words
"However, this has been refuted since it was proven that his family originated from southern Albania" 
Expression of doubt
"Ali allegedly ordered " 
--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:29, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Words to watch 

message: "Albanian ruler (pasha) of the western part of Rumelia,"
There are several things that should be considered when taking in consideration above mentioned part of first sentence:
# he ruled Pashalik of Yanina which is not in Albania
# “the population of the region he controlled was predominantly Greek speaking” means that he did not rule Albanians only
# Pashalik of Yanina is so small part of western part of Rumelia (in period when he rulled Pashalik of Yanina, it was maybe 2-3% of territory of western part of Rumelia, that statement that he ruled it is absurd and obvious puffery 
I propose to make lede similar to Catherine II of Russia, that is obviously without insisting on her being German leader or Russian leader... but simply stating the facts about her ethnic origin and position.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:44, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Antid. do you even know what was the extent of the Pashalik of Yanina at Ali Pasha's time?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:02, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right. Remark under number 3 should be discarded.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:21, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Puffery and POV 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
*Comment since the last move failed, shouldn't you have a different rationale? -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 09:53, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Although there was no move request, the article has been moved contrary to the previous results of the above discussions. In case we have no proper request the previous title should stay.Alexikoua (talk) 11:43, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: wp:NINJA move

message: For an unexplained reasons Dakin's famous quote on Ali Pasha, was either falsified or completely removed. Although this part is already cited (by Fleming's work) it might be a good idea to provide the url her too [].Alexikoua (talk) 10:06, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Unexplained removals

message: The lead paragraph has all kinds of things wrong with it.  Ali's birth date seems in fact to be unknown; at least, the sources I've looked at give widely different dates, and there should at least be a question mark after any birth date (unless some historian I haven't read has established a generally accepted birth date for him.)  The rest of the information in the lead is mostly unsourced.  Of the two sources given, one only mentions Ali briefly as being referred in a poem; the other is in Turkish, which I can't read, but running it through Google Translate seems to indicate that it just verifies he was an Ottoman official and had three sons.  Also, the description of him as an Albanian Muslim is inaccurate: several respectable sources record his ancestry as mixed Turkish/Albanian/Other -- one source says he spoke Albanian and Greek well but Turkish poorly -- and several sources also record that one of his remarkable characteristics was that he presented himself as Moslem or Christian depending on which one happened to be more advantageous politically at the time. The whole thing needs to be redone and verified by citations. Littlewindow (talk) 15:42, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead paragraph is a mess 

message: It is seems to me that in current times the spelling of the city that is the capital of Epirus is "Ioannina" and the older spellings such as Janina and Yannina have fallen into disfavor by modern scholars. "Ioannina" most closely resembles it's Greek spelling. All studies of Romaniote Jewry, which Ioannina was the epicenter of, use this spelling. 50.191.30.166 (talk) 03:21, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Having read numerous books on modern Greece, I agree that Ioannina seems to be the standard spelling in English-language books for the past several decades at least. Littlewindow (talk) 15:18, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling? 

message: There is a claim by Robert Elsie according to which Ali Pasha was of Turkish origin. The source is the dictionary of The Highland Lute (Lahuta e malcís): the Albanian national epic  but tertiary sources aren't allowed here.NobleFrog (talk) 16:10, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Which "additional sources" confirm this? You really like the idea of marking Ali Pasha as Turk or Turk-Albanians, don't you? Mondiad (talk) 01:10, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the idea of a decent explanation. Childish arguments are something you need to avoid. You asked for an additional source and there is already the paper of Ahmet Uzun in the article.Alexikoua (talk) 05:53, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

text: As soon as you explain why this work is a tertiary. If you are right the we need to proceed to the removal Elsie's works in other wiki-articles too ("Albanian dictionary" etc).Alexikoua (talk) 11:05, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It don't see any bibliography too there. So I have to agree that this isn't the best work we can have in wikipedia. I'll remove this part.Alexikoua (talk) 16:18, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Skiotis offers one of the most detailed account about Ali's origin [], which agrees with Uzun. In fact the Anatolian origin is claimed by a Turkish historian and the Historia e Sqiperise of 1959. To be more detailed they both claim that a Dervish monk from Kutahia was his ancestor. Skiotis rejects this claim as western accounts consider him Albanian.Alexikoua (talk) 14:09, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I am just reading Skiotis, looks like a good work. Let's stick to him in this case. Mondiad (talk) 15:38, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The Skiotis article seems to me of fundamental importance, and many of the facts it reports ought to be incorporated into the WP article, properly referenced. Littlewindow (talk) 01:59, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Tertiary source

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: edit warred diff and diff to remove well cited text inserted in 2012 diff.
Having in mind that this article have 95 watchers and had almost 300.000 viewers since then while the quoted text has 43 GB search hits, I believe it is necessary to reach consensus on the talkpage of this article before removal of that text.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:39, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: , nope no edit war. First change was made and then i did not agree with the second and here i am in the talkpage, as per WP:BRD. I am aware of watchers. You should be aware of policy before throwing around "edit war" claims.Resnjari (talk) 13:45, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: My apologies but to remove content from one article without consensus, solely on the grounds that something similar was agreed on the talk page of a certain WP:OTHER article which is irrelevant to this one, is not a valid argument. Each article has its own consensus and features its own talk page and what applies to one article does not necessarily apply like that to the other pages - unless doing so is a rationale or policy. The content as User:Antidiskriminator has pointed out, existed since 2012 here, and it should not be removed just because the X or Y consensus has been reached on Kolokotronis (if it has). --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻  (talk ✉️ | contribs 📝) 13:56, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Nah i didn't agree to the removal of text from another article. No consensus was achieved. Nor is the reason sufficient.Resnjari (talk) 14:00, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Now I am even more confused. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻  (talk ✉️ | contribs 📝) 14:03, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't worry about it. You confirmed something for me regarding the other matter. Thanks.Resnjari (talk) 14:06, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  2018 removal of well cited text inserted in 2012 

message: The article tells a story very different from that in The Balkan wars (2002) by André Gerolymatos, p. 79-81. Gerolymatos states that Euphorsyne and their female friends were actually adulter. "The outraged husbands of these new hetairai and the wives of their Muslim lovers appealed to Ali Pasha for justice", and "no one spoke out on behalf of the women", so he could not but order the killing. Is the article assuming the folk tradition as for history? As one of the versions must be wrong, Gerolymatos' should be included also.Joan Rocaguinard (talk) 19:49, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Young girls from Ioannina

message: In case we need to mention that foreign Western correspondence frequently refer to the territories under Ali's control as Albania (Fleming, p. 116) we need to address that the subject population -by vast majority- belonged to a different ethnicity (Fleming, p. 157). Everything is stated on the same source.Alexikoua (talk) 20:06, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you provide me full quote of the particular sentence in the source? I will appreciate it. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 21:56, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  you realized that Ali called his autonomous domains "Albania" only now? – Βατο (talk) 22:00, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

text: Here is an interesting information about it: :  – Βατο (talk) 22:05, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: , Is there any guideline violated by not knowing literally everything  about what a ruler from centuries ago, did in his political life? You know, the editors in Wikipedia aren't bots but people who have lives too. Edit: Besides that, there is nothing wrong with asking editors to help the Wiki community with the verifiability of the sources. That's why I asked for the full quote on the matter. Also it will be appreciated if  instead of  is used when we are replying to each other. The other is better reserved for those whose attention is needed but we aren't replying them. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 10:39, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  it is widely known that Ali as well as the Western powers (France and Britain) who were interested to mantain diplomatic relations with him and his autonomous domains referred to them by using the term "Albania". Here is the quote about the diplomatic correspondences from the source used in the article, :  – Βατο (talk) 11:02, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  an Ali enthousiast, I take? Thanks for your time in enlightening me about that historical person. Frankly, now thanks to ya, I know more about Ali than I ever did about Pyrrhus of Epirus or Alexander the Great. . --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 11:09, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

text: Pardon me, but I dont see the link between “foreign correspondence referring to Ali’s territories as Albania” and the need to immediately add that Greeks formed a large part of Ali’s Pashalik for the sake of neutrality. I am not sure how it even became a question of neutrality, as it simply states that western correspondence referred to Ali’s territory as Albania. It is not a point of view, it’s just a fact. Botushali (talk) 10:29, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: foreign Western correspondence frequently refer to the territories under Ali's control as Albania but as I see Pouqueville had a diferrent view (Kallivretakis: Ο Γάλλος πρόξενος στα Γιάννενα F.C.H.L. Pouqueville (ca 1806) θεωρεί ότι το Παλαιοπωγώνι, η Δρόπολη (Αργυρόκαστρο), η Πρεμε�τή, το Τεπελένι, και η Αυλώνα ανήκουν στην Ήπειρο, ενώ περιλαμ�βάνει στη Μέση Αλβανία τη Μουζακιά, τη Μαλακάστρα, το Σκρά�παρι, το Μπεράτι και το Ελμπασ). Contemporary geographers also reject the view that Epirus was part of Albania. A very abstract geographic term of the time, nothing to do with the ethnic group.
@SR: Alexikoua (talk) 03:58, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: To be clear on that no wp:RS has ever called Ali's area as "Albania". Winnifrith for example calls it a "Greek-Albanian state" in his description. Claiming Ioannina as part of Albania falls straight into POV neither Ali encouraged any national movement.Alexikoua (talk) 05:33, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest to WP:STAYONTOPIC. It is about Ali's diplomatic correspondence with foreigh states, there are no neutrality isues about that. – Βατο (talk) 08:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Pouqueville was the leading French diplomat in Ioannina that time: this is the topic.Alexikoua (talk) 23:28, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This part concerns the population of the territories he goverνned. I don't understand why this is trivial to lead, in fact it's essential to understand that this personality is connected to the region and time period when the Greek national movement culminated. If we want to summarize the demographic sitation in this region that this is a representative description, per wp:LEAD. On the other hand we should consider removing abstract georgaphic terms such as 'Albania' since they were not in widespread use that time. Alexikoua (talk) 17:06, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality in lead

message: It's completely weird and POV to begin this section by stating something about today's Albanian nationalism and removing everything about contemporary national movements. In terms of neutrality we should focus on the specific era.Alexikoua (talk) 17:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not about today's Albanian nationalism, it is about 19th century Albanian National Awakening. The historical context has been linked into the relevant articles, and clarifications have been also included: "Although Ali Pasha's intent was not to build a nation state, the legacy left behind by him was utilized by the Albanian elite to construct their nationalist platform". Your POV addition obviously can't stay. You are free to add content about Ali's influence on the emergence of Greek enightenment, but don't remove sourced content or introduce original research. – Βατο (talk) 17:07, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Please avoid disruptive removals: Ali's rule is connected to the Greek national movement, that's sourced by Harvard history professors. Don't pretent that it's OR, in fact Ali's rule is connected with the rise of the Greek national movement, (and to Albanian one but to much lesser extent). Removing that piece of information is not cool.Alexikoua (talk) 17:13, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Ali's rule coincided with the culmination of the national Greek revolution not the Albanian one. As such scholarship is quite clear that his legacy is connected primarily with that. Ali never built a single Albanian school or contributed to any Albanian language institution. Albanian nationalism culminated at a later stage.Alexikoua (talk) 17:17, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This quote from a 50 years old publication  obviously can't be included. This claim  is completely erroneous, it ignores that half of the territory of the Pashalik was in Albania, and that the autonomous state was actually called "Albania" by Ali himself. Your POV pushing editing is highly unconstructive. – Βατο (talk) 17:30, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The "contribution" that Ali Pasha made to Greek and Albanian "nationalisms" is that he showed that the Ottomans could be challenged and his wars created a weakness in the Ottoman army that made "liberation" much easier. Recent critical scholarship focused on nationalism should be used instead of out of context outdated statements. I agree with Bato that that sentence is entirely out of context. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:49, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ali did not care about Greek national causes. He killed and plundered every Greek who could hurt his interest. Is that a "contribution" to Greek "nationalism"? The Greek "revolution" happened primarily because the Ottoman Army was busy and damaged fighting Ali, and after his death many of his bandits who until then had killed and robbed Greeks went to fight for the "liberation" of Greece for personal profit (Androutsos etc).  Yes, because Ali did not care about Albanian national causes. Ali was a local criminal, not a patriotic benefactor. The "Albanian Pashaliks" could have joined forces together and created an autonomous Albanian state in the late 18th or early 19th century, but they did not because their goals were personal profit. A pasha was far from being a nationalist. Albanians had the opportunity to form their state before Greeks and Slavs, but did not do that because their "elite" consisted mostly of people who did not care about "nationalism" and gained from the Ottoman rule in a way or another. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:57, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the following quote from Dakin, which for obvious reasons is POV and inappropriate to be included into the article:  Such biased opinions from old scholarship are to be avoided. – Βατο (talk) 13:11, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, why is it POV and why is Dakin, who offered one of the most neutral, detailed and scholarly accounts on the subject, biased? Simply being against your personal POV doesn't make everyone biased. By the way you just added Valentin (1956) [] but removed Dakin who is much more recent.Alexikoua (talk) 17:28, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Valentini provides unbiased and so far undisputed information. Nevertheless, if you provide reasonable arguments and other reliable sources that contrast it we can discuss whether the information he provides is worth mentioning or not. On the other hand, old opinions which are clearly biased: , not even mentioning the crucial Albanian element, can't be included as quotes into the main text of the article. – Βατο (talk) 17:40, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Dunkin is a professor of history (and Fleming is quoting him, so no reason why we shouldn't also), Skiotis the same (history professor in Harvard), you remove them as outdated and biased but replace them with even older accounts. You need to provide solid evidence that those historians are biased not simply recycling wp:IDONTLIKEIT narratives.Alexikoua (talk) 01:32, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Old secondary scholarship which completely ignores the Albanian element of Ali (he was an Albanian, supported by an Albanian political and military establishment, and he officially called his autonomous domain "Albania") while highlighting "Greek" and "Turkish" elements are not going to be included. Your demand is clearly WP:UNDUE and WP:POV. Find secondary recent reliable sources and add them, but not as quotes in the main text of the article, they are generally used for documented primary accounts considered to be relevant by recent secondary sources. – Βατο (talk) 07:49, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me summarize where you need need to provide citation: supported by an Albanian political and military establishment, and he officially called his autonomous domain "Albania". We have some abstract correspodence that sometimes mentioned the term Albania. His realm was never officially named as such: 'Pashalik of Yannina' was the official name.Alexikoua (talk) 03:56, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I have not to provide you citations here. All the relevant information and proper sourcing is already in the article. I suggest to read it, and accept it. But even if you don't accept it, not a problem anyway. – Βατο (talk) 08:32, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Only comments on modern Albanian nationalim permitted in legacy section but on Greek national movement removed

message: Obviously the military operations of 1820-22 belong to downfall section: regardless if the are joined by Greek revolutionaries or not they were armed operations where troops loyal to Ali Pasha participated.Alexikoua (talk) 04:47, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The article needs restructuring, the section Influences § Greek War of Independence has acquired WP:undue weight for this article. Many parts of that section should be moved to the section Rebellion and downfall, while keeping in that section only a summary of the main influences Ali exerted on the Greek War of Independence. Also, only content directly relevant for the subject of this article should be included. We should keep in mind also the size of the article, which has grown substantially with the latest edits. – Βατο (talk) 17:21, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The current article includes only information about the movement-operation-alliances of units loyal to Ali Pasha. There is no undue weight, but indeed restructuring of this information is essential as part of the 1820-1822 (move to relevant section).Alexikoua (talk) 21:20, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Downfall 1820-1822