Talk:Greater Albania

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Greater Albania. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20170803171148/http://www.instat.gov.al/en/themes/population/publications/books/2012/main-results-of-population-and-housing-census-2011.aspx to http://www.instat.gov.al/en/themes/population/publications/books/2012/main-results-of-population-and-housing-census-2011.aspx
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:30, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I have no issue with the current longstanding map, though I do find 's map visually better. He has also shown willingness to adjust it and I can confirm it now aligns with the last Macedonian census data. Beyond that, I presume he used data typically used on articles on Wikipedia (i.e. census figures), but he should confirm which sources were used as basis for this map. --Local hero talk 20:40, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: +1 --InNeed95 (talk) 18:25, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

text: The new map looks better. I have no objection either but it could use a source or two. Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 18:42, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

text: To be honest, without clear info about the sources I suggest to remove the map altogether. But the old map looks clearer to me, with a better representation of the country borders and without the question marks that the new map has. The Banner talk 19:16, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The current map apparently gives a source under the "summary" section.  Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 19:23, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

text: You have added a ridiculous source which says that Korca Region was majority Greek. Please refrain from POV-pushing and get consensus before making controversial and fringe edits. Ahmet Q. (talk) 10:27, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Ridiculous source says who? The Greek minority in Albania numbers between 200.000-300.000   and according to the map by Le Monde Diplomatique (i.e ) they inhabit the Korca region as well. Also: WP:AOBF. Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 11:12, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no reason to remove the consensus version. The specific map was created and agreed by a number of Albanian editors that time and there was full agreement on that. Le Monde Diplomatique is a perfect source in the field. If there are some minor visual issues with the consensus map it would be an easy job for me to fix them. Alexikoua (talk) 11:15, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The source used in the map about a Greek majority in regions of Korca is clearly dubious and a fringe view. I disagree with readding such a pov-pushing map. Adding a map with percentages is POV at its core. The map should just display what Greater Albania is. Ahmet Q. (talk) 20:58, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: @Ahmet: it appears you didn't read the description (not event the map's legend): it states that Albanians constitute 50%-80%, that's called Albanian majority. Not to mention that plenty of Albanian editors agreed on this version. It's the second time you blindly revert me that way. That's not cool.Alexikoua (talk) 22:02, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

text: This map is misplaced. The article is about the notion of "Greater Albania" which "seeks to unify the lands that many Albanians consider to be their homeland". So it's about a concept that some Albanians have. Neither modern administrative units, nor modern and foreign estimates of ethnic composition in these units are internal to the Albanian concept. So regardless of the map's accuracy, it cannot be placed in such a prominent position when it does not reflect what the article is about, but a (subjectively) refined one. It could fit into a section focusing on how the concept of "Greater Albania" is perceived by others living in these areas or by neighboring countries, but not at the top. If any map should be at the top it should be the one depicting the borders requested by the Vlore government of 1913, as that is where the whole idea originated.  Çerçok (talk) 23:34, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: What does "misplaced" mean here? Actually its the perfect place for a map (map of Greater Albania in an article that bears the same name). It's the best we have so far not to mention its was generally agreed by everyone (though created and edited by Albanian editors entirely). Modern administrative units are not bad to be seen, but removing by pretending it shows Greek majority areas it constitutes wp:DISRUPTION.Alexikoua (talk) 23:41, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said I am not against including this map in the article, but it is misplaced within it. As it stands, it is the image does not reflect the concept, it shows something different. No Albanian ever conceptualized Greater Albania as the image depicts it.  Once again, this could fit below, but not at the top. Çerçok (talk) 00:03, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

text:  I think that maps about demographics should be removed from the lede. They will generate POV disputes which don't make the article better.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not think the map has any significant influence on the rate of emotions and POV shown in this and related articles. The Banner talk 00:24, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

text: I do not see why the current map is appropriate. It does not actually represent what is considered to be 'Greater Albania' in it's entirety, for starters, so the map is actually incorrect. Secondly, it would also make more sense to insert a map in the lede that refrains from utilising demographics as a whole. A map along the lines of this (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Greater_Albania.png) is more fitting. Botushali (talk) 00:39, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Greater Albania is intended to reflect the position of Albanians during the Albanian Vilayet; it does not presume the location of Albanians today, as several migrations and expulsions have happened since then. It is illogical to include the ethnic compositions of would-be Greater Albania, which in fact excludes a large portion of the territory claimed as Greater Albania. Excine (talk) 01:55, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Are irredentist projects justified when a population forms the majority? These narratives highlight why maps about demographics should be removed. They are instrumentalized and used to ask all the wrong questions. Wikipedia doesn't ask whether Albanian irredentism is "justified" and doesn't justify when Albanians are majority. The article should depict what Greater Albania is without justifying when it's good or bad - based on dubious map-painting.--Maleschreiber (talk) 03:17, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

text: As I previously indicated, there is no justification to create a map of "Greater Albania" with the provinces' current ethnic composition. Second, the map does not accurately represent Greater Albania, as territories such as Serbia's Sandzak and the region surrounding Nis are omitted. Thus, how is Greater Albania defined? It is irrational to include ethnic percentages in these districts, which do not adequately represent Greater Albania, which encompasses all four Ottoman Vilayets. There is no question that the Greater Albania concept refers to the area where the Albanians presumably lived in the late nineteenth century, not the twenty-first century. Excine (talk) 02:51, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  If the demographics are assessed in accordance with the underlying notion of Greater Albania (the four vilayets mentioned by ), the demographic situation of the vilayets in question would be considerably different - I'm sure certain editors would take issue with that notion, too. This is precisely why demographic information should be fully omitted from the lede map in the first place. Botushali (talk) 03:10, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

text: In other words, you don't want readers to know what the ethnic demographics are in the areas claimed as Greater Albania. And while it may have started in the 19th century, the idea of Greater Albania is very much alive today. Khirurg (talk) 03:11, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  This map can easily be included into another section of the article, I have no problem with that. Albeit it should be updated to reflect the current borders of 'Greater Albania.' It most certainly should not be the lede map. Excine (talk) 03:15, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Problem is, there is no map of Greater Albania. I don't even think there is agreement on what "Greater Albania" is. If such a map existed, the two could be one under another in the lede. Khirurg (talk) 03:17, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  To be sure,  a map of Greater Albania does exist. This is the most common response to the question, "What is Greater Albania?" Greater Albania was a political idea whose purpose was to unify all Albanians residing within the borders of the four Albanian-inhabited vilayets. Certain minorities resided there as well, but the map is intended to illustrate the concept. However, the ethnic composition should be re-positioned elsewhere. The concept is still alive and well among many nationalists today, although the map itself is a 19th-century idea. As such, it should be appropriate to include at the very least ethnographic maps from the initial era of where the idea began. For the present day ethnic composition of a would-be Greater Albania, perhaps a totally new subsection should be created, complete with a demographic map of Greater Albania in the 19th century with the appropriate provinces and borders, which I would not object to. The issue I have is that the map itself, is it does not adequately depict the borders; it is not what people think of as Greater Albania. Excine (talk) 03:44, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Question for the verifiability of the map. Was Corfu ever inhabited by Albanians (Corfu was never even part of the Ottoman Empire)? I am asking because it is part of the aforementioned irredentist map and for sure that cannot be backed by any sources if you make an attempt to expand the article with the demographics section. Othon I (talk) 07:51, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Depends on who you’re asking - there’s people who will agree on the mainland definition excluding Corfu, because that would accurately represent the four vilayets, but there are plenty of people who do indeed include Corfu. However, because the article is based on the traditional idea, a map of that same mainland excluding Corfu would be more realistic as a lede map. Botushali (talk) 10:18, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Even if you guys proceed with the demographics section, Corfu should be excluded. Otherwise the whole foundation "story" for this irredentist concept does not make sense. Corfu was never part of the villayets, had minimal to nonexistent Albanian presence and of course was not even part of the Ottoman empire. Probably the people designed supporting this were not well-informed Othon I (talk) 10:46, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agreed with you; the map I linked does not put Corfu within the borders of a proposed Greater Albania. At the very least, I believe that the map I linked depicts what an average Albanian would consider regarding Greater Albania; all other maps depicting Greater Albania as larger, including additional lands to the south and north, are recent additions by nationalists, and are not part of the rather original concept, for example  Such a map like this, is more of a recent change of borders. Excine (talk) 11:48, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

text:  I am not disagreeing with you. I do not think that Corfu needs to be included in either the lede map (no demographics) or the demographic maps - it is not within the vilayets. Just as how including Corfu in the lede map is wrong, so is keeping the current, incorrect map in general (in either the lede or demographics section). Neither conform to the 4-vilayet basis. Additionally, it is not a “foundation story”, the four vilayets are the actual historic origin of the concept of Greater Albania. Botushali (talk) 11:06, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It's actually astonishing that two alternative maps presented above are without citation in commons and -even worse- they present an even maximalist version of Gr.Al.. I see no reason why we should avoid demographics based on RS.Alexikoua (talk) 16:26, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

text: I added it. The article with a lead that had a demographics map and not a territory map, as is the practice everywhere on Wikipedia with countries, proposed countries and irredentist concepts, deserved a POV tag. Ktrimi991 (talk) 08:36, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Now that I saw them more carefully, the two demographics maps are both ethnicity ones. The article for years has had two maps that show different versions of Albanian presence in the region. One, of course, should be removed. I leave it up to you which one is that. Ktrimi991 (talk) 08:42, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: Why is the entire population of Montenegro and Macedonia included in the table? It clearly says under territory that it’s southern Montenegro and western Macedonia, yet the full countries population is included. Only the small region in Serbia is correctly listed. 100.4.105.230 (talk) 08:32, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population table