Talk:Ponary massacre

message: Please note that the Ponary massacre has been discusseed previously at Talk:Paneriai, until it was split into it's separate article.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:20, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Old discussions

message: I'm not a native speaker, so I may be wrong, but I understand a massacre as something what happened once, during a short period of time, eg. Kaunas massacre, Jedwabne massacre. Killings during years aren't in my opinion a massacre. See also Massacre, which confirms my position. Xx236 14:53, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When I was looking at the various literature, massacre was the most common term. I am open to hearing arguments about different name, of course.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:20, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment: I agree that "massacre" isn't really satisfactory here, but there are few other acceptable substituions. By way of example, there is the Petrus Killings, summary executions that occurred over several years in Indonesia. But to tell the truth, I'm not really satisfied with the term "killings". There must be a better term. Like the noun "holocaust", but on a smaller scale. I would suggest "campaign" but that's too neutral, and it doesn't have th umph of words like "massacre" and "holocaust". What about Ponary Extermination Campaign? Boneyard90 (talk) 00:21, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Masacre?

message: According to the last issue of Gazeta Polska IPN Gdańsk doesn't prossecute Lithuanian executioners of Ponary. A local law court will decide. Families of the victims protest. Xx236 15:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you have any bibliogrpahical information (date, name of the article) or even better an external link to that article?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:20, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gdańsk court will decide 

message: Article one sided interpret numbers of victims,  Genocide and Resistance Research Centre and  Bubnys notes that 100 000 victims is exaggerated , . Mostly killed Jews, and as noted in provided sources Polish victims were hundreds not thousands, such inaccuracy happed “thanks” to “works” to contributors like Helena Pasierbska, while article itself do not make any disclaimer on her, while Lithuanian and Polish scholars identified her, lets say – one sided.  Another one article - not mentioned Belorussians, who there also killed here, small number but still. About Ypatingasis burys, it participated in killings at the beginning of 1941 later its actives was limited and nonexistent like in 1944, nothing is motioned about killers later fates etc. Generally article is not NOPV, this way it is tagged. M.K. 10:55, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which provided sources give 'hundreds' instead of 'thousands' Poles? All sources I found claim that the number of Polish victims was at least 15000 and usually agree on 20000 estimate. As for 100 000 exaggerated, the common brackets are 80 000 - 100 000, as some sources (but not all) note that the number of Jews killed may vary from 50 000 to 70 000. Please provide sources for your arguments, and read up on WP:NPOV. The article is not POVed - you have failed to even state what particular POV is it that is supposed to be 'pushed' here. PS. That said, your claim that it was Poles and Russians who carried this massacre is certainly POVed to the extreme - please answer the querry at Talk:Ypatingasis būrys and please don't insert such 'revelations' into the article until they matter has been debated and accepted by other editors.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:20, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Firts of all stop deleting tags. Article clearly not NPOV, and it was concurred by your recent selective information removal as this :  your motivating only as  yes you for the first time hear this, but this do not give you power to remove tags and info, that you conducted is called Original Research. And as you called one contributor a vandal recently because he removed the ref , you once again removed ref, conclusions? Restoring tag, M.K. 10:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that you claim that 'Article clearly not NPOV' does not make it so. Nobody supports your POV, on the other hand other users are disputing your claim. I am still waiting for the responce and appopriate translation at Talk:Ypatingasis būrys, per our policies (WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:RS) you need to provide a translation if you try to use a source in non-English language to claim something that apparently is not claimed by any source discussing that matter in all other languages (and is obviously controversial). It is what you are doing that can be called POV pushing, OR and tag spamming. Please desist from disrupting the project in that way.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  15:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Not balanced

message: I'll be kind and call it tendentious editing, even though it borders extreme on POV pushing that borders vandalism. I am within my rights to add related events in the See also categories. That the author of Zydokomuna, would take it upon himself to remove Babi Yar, or the other removed events, is bizarre. The readers of WP can make the determination of the relevance of the suggested links to the subject matter at hand. Dr. Dan 19:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added Babi Yar to this article. It, as well as the other links, are redundant with  now in the article. See also is considered bad style, please familiarize yourself with WP:MOS suggestions before engaging in WP:TE.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I still consider see also bad style, but if you insist, I see no much harm in having this redundant section here. You may want to edit the template to add those links there, if you think they are important enough.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:27, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. More light! You have more experience at editing templates than I. Whatever you decide on that is fine with me. Dr. Dan 20:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tendentious edits

message: How do the articles listed under "See also" expand the topic of this article ? --Lysytalk 20:45, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excuse me, how are links under "See also" required to "expand" the article that they stem from? Dr. Dan 20:57, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They are not just an arbitrary selection of links that otherwise do not match the article. The articles in "see also" should be providing additional information on the subject to a reader. --Lysytalk 20:59, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That surprises me to hear you say that. If you can't see why someone reading about this event, or doing research on it, wouldn't be interested in the other events that I listed, or see the connection, you are rather mistaken. I think most objective people, even those who frequently disagree with me, would have very little doubt that these are similar types of events, taking place in the same general area, and that the majority of the killings are of the same people, mostly Jews. Dr. Dan 00:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly, you are assuming that the reader is researching Holocaust. Then you have hand-picked a number of completely different and unrelated Holocaust events. If you were looking for something similar, you should be rather mentioning the Palmiry or Katyn massacre instead. --Lysytalk 01:28, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Katyn is mentioned in text, as indeed a comparison between Ponary and Katyn is often made in Polish press.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  01:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also 

message: I do not doubt, that annexation of Vilnius region in 1939 October by Lithuanian Republic (this one should be NPOV'ed, as per many articles talk) is not some fact unknown to our dearest Piotrus. So eventually tose cities became Lithuanian, and this fact somehow got omitted. (and of course, please, would you care to explain do you really believe Vilnius region was annexed by Lithuania in 1991, as your dearest friend Halibutt stted? (ref's please))
I'm really sick and tired of your continuing selective approach to the material you're copy-pasting in between articles, without even reading it. I know, such a renowned administrator has not a second to read a line further, than google search (be it books or plain google-sercg) suggests.
As per POV this time - if you really think, that Ypatingasis būrys was called so by Germans read this - Wykonawcami mordów byli żołnierze narodowości litewskiej z oddziału egzekucyjnego tzw. "Ypatingas burys"(Oddział Specjalny). Rekrutowali się oni przeważnie spośród członków paramilitarnej organizacji litewskiej "Lietuvos Sauliu Sajunga" (Związek Strzelców Litewskich). Organizatorem i komendantem tego znanego z niebywałych okrucieństw Sonderkommando, olicjalnie przydzielonego do gestapo, był Niemiec Martin Weiss.. This reference is quite messy, and absolutely unreferenced, although even Polish source does not call that unit Lithuanian, it calls it Sonderkommando. Just citing it as an example of selective reading (without trying to improve Ypatingasis būrys article)) you again showed your Google generation approach. You did find it on google didn't you? 
I'm looking forward to have another portion of your in-famous intimidations to be persecuted if it does not suit your POV.Have a good day--Lokyz 23:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For the umpht time, since almost all members of this organization were Lithuanian, it is quite logical to call this a Lithuanian unit. I see no point in dscussing this with somebody who hasn't provided a single reference to back his claims - I guess you technically must be from pre-print generation, then, if you can only rely on your own opinion. Unfortunatly, it's not good enough for Wikipedia, I am afraid.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  01:23, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's quite enough to fully READ  references provided by others, to understand what they're about, and not only cite one line that fits your gust.--Lokyz 08:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Piotrus reverts

message: This article is about Ponary massacre. Not about Ypatingasis burys (or their ethnic composition), not about Armia Krajowa or Red Army (nor their ethnic composition), not about Katyn, not about Jedwabne, and not Kielce, nor Auschwitz, nor Poland, nor Lithuania, nor Second World War, nor about many other things that are irrelevant to this article. Please don't push some POVs by inserting information here that has no relevance to that article. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do not remove facts and references provided, it is directly talking about the issue dispite you like it or not. M.K. 20:10, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please explain to us how the information, considered irrelevant by all other sources, that one of the units involved in the massacres had a few members of other nationality/ethnicity then its majority is relevant to this article any more then information on composition of SD, SS, AK or Red Army?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

text: That all sounds good now, but interestingly you had no objections about making the 100 man Ypatingasis burys the perpetrators of circa 100,000 killings, or removing or even questioning the Big Lie that 7,500 Polish POWS were killed here. You know, the earlier article that you edited before your re-direct. You, brought in the "See also" link to Babi Yar. You, brought up Ponary's relevance to Katyn. You, disputed the "ethnic" composition of the killers, and wanted references. Now that you got them, it seems it's insignificant information beyond the scope of this article. All of this is an ugly inter-related part of the history of this part of the world during the Second World War. It can be, and will be, mercilessly edited, and discussed, and debated, long after we are gone, whether you like it or not. Live with it! Dr. Dan 19:32, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Dan, please don't expect a reply to claims which are simply false. Does the article says that YB squad was the sole peraptrator of the massacre? No. Who dug up reference that 7500 POWS were not Polish and corrected this in the article? Me. So please stop trying to cause yet another flame war by twisting facts - you have already been blocked once for such disruptive behaviour.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The scope of this article

message: What exactly was the role of Ypatingasis būrys in the mass-murder in Ponary ? --Lysytalk 09:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, replaced the previous "German Security Police Squad", but perhaps the Ypatingasis būrys article should be renamed then ? Do we have any English language sources using the "German Security Police Squad" name for the unit ? --Lysytalk 11:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: No, because Blue Police was not Sonderkommando, nor part of SD like YB was. This exact unit according to documents was direct subordinate of German Police, Lated SD and even later SS, and not subordinate neither to Saugumas, nor Lithuanian police. Longest serving commander of YB was SS'man Martin Weiss.--Lokyz 14:56, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ypatingasis būrys 

message: The article states that the murder took place near the railway station. Would it not be more correct to state that they happened in the forest near Paneriai ? --Lysytalk 11:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The railway station ? 

message: If you tag something there is no need to dedicate it for me, dear Piotrus. Is it some kind of flirt with me? Should I tag Jedwabne massacre  " for my dear Piotrus"? STOP STALKING ME!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lokyz (talk • contribs).
:I am sorry you read my gesture of good will as stalking. I will make sure not to commend you upon your participation in Wikipedia:WikiProject Lithuania/Assessment in the future.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:45, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: (tag WikiProject Lithuania for Lokyz)

message: First Wikipedians are treated to the article Zydokomuna, now its author and an "administrator" is treating us to nazi propaganda posters. Strikes me as shameful. Dr. Dan 14:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dan, are you trying to communicate something here ? What is your point ? --Lysytalk 18:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Too bad you even have to ask. If you think adding that vulgar, rabidly anti-Semitic, nazi propaganda poster is relevant to this article, that's truly a shame. Perhaps your friend deserves to be commended for these kinds of contributions? Or maybe get a barnstar or some other medal? Personally I was extremely offended, and these "contributions" seem to me, to have a pattern of sorts. Dr. Dan 20:51, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: It would be easier to understand you if you were more specific about what you're referring to. What poster, which administrator, what kind of contributions ? Thanks. --Lysytalk 21:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lysy, please, you are very good at "following up" on my contributions and edits. As a matter of fact you once told me on my talk page that you weren't stalking me, it's just that we have many mutual items on our watchlist. Take a good hard look at the Ponary massacre article's history and my edits within the last few days, and all of your "lack of understanding" will magically vanish. Cheers. Dr. Dan 04:23, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Whether it is relevant or not (I do not see how, and find your explanation to be quite a stretch) to this tragic episode at Ponary, was not my point. Most historians agree that Nazi propaganda was highly effective, inspite of it being of questionable veracity. In fact so successful, that it was suggested by the communist authorites in Poland of perpetuating anti-Semitism and pogroms, in Poland, even after the war. See Kraków pogrom and Kielce pogrom. On the other hand, the Polish border guard, Borkowski, could not read Lithuanian, yet he was able to participate in the Ponary murders without the benefit of the "Poster". If you feel there is a need to display Nazi anti-Semitic propaganda on Wikipedia, I suggest you "create" another article for that purpose. I'm sure you can find many examples of Polish-Nazi "Posters" to show us. Perhaps you can add some of them to an article that you have already created, Zydokomuna. And by the way, you have no idea as to whether this type of propaganda was obviously "successful" in recruiting Y.B. volunteers. Just another example of your own "opinion" being offered as "fact". Dr. Dan 14:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You may not see how it is relevant. Timothy Snyder does, showing it next to Ponary description in his book. It is a good illustration of Nazi propaganda which contributed to Ponary massacre. Nothing more, nothing less.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:43, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How nice, maybe Julius Streicher would like it too. What happened to your ...such propaganda was "obviously" successfull (sic) in recruiting YB volunteers and auxiliaries... argument? What even too unverifiably POV for you? Dr. Dan 21:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Beginning to Wonder

message: Can anyone reduce the amount of superscripts on the first few sentences of this article? Maybe compress them into one big footnote. Horvat Den 17:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Excess

message: P.P., the Final Solution as it is now called and known, was implemented in Wannsee, in 1942. Although the murder of Jews took place in the Baltic States earlier (doubt that you personally consider Paneriai, part of the Baltic States), this anti-Semitic barbarity also had a long association with Poland prior to the Holocaust, (see Pinsk massacre), and after that horror, (see Kielce Pogrom). Your reference is too general, does not mention Lithuania specifically, and as a consequence, I chose to remove it again. If you wish to play more mind games with this outrageous anti-Lithuanian bias, go for it, and you will get a tsunami of references to Polish anti-Semitism. To try to "make hay" out out the sad fact that the Jews first in the line of the Nazi policy to kill Jews, were in the Baltic States, is so bogus and actually surprising that you have fallen so low in our debates. Should we think that the fact that the Nazis gave Poland the "honor" of being the site of the most death camps somehow relate or show Polish complicity in the Nazi's policy? Do back off of this one. Dr. Dan 22:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[:Image: Piotrus in żupan.jpg|P.P. at it Again]]

message: Although P.P. continues to create a bellicose attitude regarding the Baltic States with his recent edits, we at least have the acknowlegement that Paneriai, a suburb of Vilnius, was/is part of the Baltic States, rather than of Poland. O.K. Dr. Dan 22:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At the time it was part of the Baltics in the very same way Paris was part of Germany. //Halibutt 11:12, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Something Good out of Something Bogus

message: Piotrowski on p.167 () gives a list of how many Poles were executed and when, according to Polish resistance. The list must be incomplete, or other estimates exaggerated (he doesn't state that the list is comprehensive), but it adds up to only about 1,000 victims. On p. 174 () he quotes two Polish historians: Longin Tomaszewski's "estimate for ethnic Poles is several thousands", Zdisław A. Siemaszko writes about 1,700 including many AK members. So the 20,000 estimate may be too high.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  18:29, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many Poles died? 

message: The article states that "the Jewish culture in Vilnius [was] one of the greatest in Europe". Can this assertion be defined or qualified somehow? I mean, "greatest" as in oldest, most established, largest, most distinct, wealthiest, contributed the most to literature or the fine arts... what made it "one of the greatest"? If this statement can't be further developed, I suggest alternate wording, less POV. Boneyard90 (talk) 00:41, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: POV assertion?

message: The  article states that there was a denial by the Soviets, but as far as I can see there was no denial, just a generalization that the Jews were Soviet citizens, which was most likely accurate. Andries (talk) 21:26, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right. This monument was erected in 1960. Actually English Wikipedia is full of Polish propaganda.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.157.77.238 (talk) 11:31, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Soviet denial

message: The word Russian means frequently Soviet citizens of differen't nationalities.Xx236 (talk) 11:17, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  8,000 Russians ? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crimes against humanity category removal