Talk:Jewish Defense League

message: Two links from the NYPD SHIELD site:
* Global Terrorism Database
* Terrorist Organization Profile
161.185.151.193 (talk) 02:00, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  FYI 

message: I removed the picture of the anti-Arab graffiti. There is no way to know that this was the work of the JDL for sure. I hope everyone can see why this is against W:BLP policies. Thanks. BTW I have personally been threatened by a JDL member back in the 1970s. (details are at: Talk:Unification Church antisemitism controversy :-) ) Steve Dufour (talk) 13:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture

message: I am sure that this article (like all on WP) is written to provide fair, neutral info and not to prejudice people against the JDL. ;-)  However if I (who actually has some experience in writing ads, etc.) were going to write a negative article on the JDL I probably wouldn't have the first and one of the largest sections be titled "Anti-Soviet activities." Steve Dufour (talk) 14:40, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand your point. Are you saying that the "Anti-Soviet activities" section is not NPOV because it's too favorable?   Will Beback  talk   18:07, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: hmmm... It cuts both ways. Fans of the Soviet Union might like that title being prominent since most (almost all) people reading info on the JDl will think it's a bad group...AND...at least the suggestion will be made that being "anti-Soviet" is also bad.  On the other hand fans of the JDL might like it as well since being anti-Soviet is considered by many people to be a good thing and provides the JDL with some justification for their extreme acts. Steve Dufour (talk) 19:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there a problem that needs to be fixed? If so, what solution do you propose?   Will Beback  talk   19:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure. Reading the article more closely it doesn't seem to be such a problem, since that was a big part of their early focus it seems. However the word "Anti-Soviet" has the feel of something only a true-believing communist would say, but I can't think of a better expression. "Opposition to Soviet policies" might be an improvement. I don't think there is any evidence that they intended to bring the Soviet Union down. Steve Dufour (talk) 19:26, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll change the section title and see if people like it. Steve Dufour (talk) 02:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "Anti-Soviet"

message: Is this important enough so it should be in the intro? A lot of times answers to polls depend on how the question is asked so I don't think this data is very reliable. I would take it out altogether, but at least move it down the page. Steve Dufour (talk) 02:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Polling data

message: In that section, Irv Rubin was referred to as a spokesman of the JDL.  I was under the impression that he was the leader of it at that time.  Was he?  If so, should it be changed?
ObiBinks (talk) 18:39, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That is correct he was the Chairman at that time, not just a spokesman for the organization. Please make the change. Thanks.--Eliscoming1234 (talk) 23:26, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: In the Relationship with Death Row Records section

message: "The JDL was angry at music impresario Sol Hurok for bringing artists from the Soviet Union to the United States. In 1972, a bomb was planted in his Manhattan office, killing a secretary who happened to be Jewish."  I don't think a group can feel an emotion such as anger, although of course its members can.  Is there a way to express this better? Jaque Hammer (talk) 08:29, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll see what I can do. Wolfview (talk) 06:02, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Problem sentences

message: The sites at jdl.org and jewishdefenseleague.org have been taken down ; both links are dead. I tried to correct the page to indicate that both links were dead but the page was reverted. 99.98.1.31 (talk) 05:12, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Website go down and are restored unpredictably. The site's old pages are available through the Internet Archive at http://web.archive.org/web/*/www.jdl.org.   Will Beback  talk   07:28, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  The JDL Website, www.jdl.org, is unexpectadly down since several days ago. The website should be restored shortly.--Eliscoming1234 (talk) 18:18, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  The website is back up.--Eliscoming1234 (talk) 23:24, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: JDL website is a dead link

message: Lacking time now, but I think this deserves to get a mention in the article: ; both the new linkage between the Canadian JDL faction and the EDL, as well as Farber's opinions on this "marriage". Whaledad (talk) 05:25, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canada JDL and EDL linkage 

message: A piece in this article is misleading.
"On 25 February 1994, Baruch Goldstein, a "charter member" of the JDL, opened fire on Palestinian Muslims kneeling in prayer at mosque in the West Bank city of Hebron, killing 29. On its website, the JDL writes "we are not ashamed to say that Goldstein was a charter member of the Jewish Defense League." [37] It is also important to note that the JDL defends its stance by saying that "we feel that Goldstein took a preventative measure against yet another Arab attack on Jews. We understand his motivation, his grief and his actions. We do not consider his assault to qualify under the label of terrorism because Dr. Goldstein was a soldier in a war zone who was faced by an imminent terrorist threat.""
The problem here is that it paints a misleading picture of the JDLs statement on the killing. The full text from the JDL FAQ:
"Dr. Goldstein was a brilliant surgeon, a mild-mannered Yeshiva-educated man who was promoted to the rank of major in the IDF. He was warned by his superiors in the military to prepare an open field hospital in anticipation of another murderous attack by the hostile Arab population of Hevron during the Jewish festival of Purim. Many of these Arabs were standing outside Goldstein's synagogue in the Cave of the Patriarchs and yelling "Slaughter the Jew." Goldstein had lost 30 close friends in the last few years; they were murdered by Arabs in the Hevron-Kiryat Arba area. One of those was the son of his best friend, Mordechai Lapid; as Goldstein rushed to give the young man medical aid, he was held back by the Arabs on the scene and the young man died. Additionally, as there is proof that the Arabs were hoarding food and supplies in response to a Muslim call for a massacre on the Jewish holiday of Purim, we feel that Goldstein took a preventative measure against yet another Arab attack on Jews. We understand his motivation, his grief and his actions. We do not consider his assault to qualify under the label of terrorism because Dr. Goldstein was a soldier in a war zone who was faced by an imminent terrorist threat. We teach that violence is never a good solution but is unfortunately sometimes necessary as a last resort when innocent lives are threatened; we therefore view Dr. Goldstein as a martyr in Judaism's protracted struggle against Arab terrorism. And we are not ashamed to say that Goldstein was a charter member of the Jewish Defense League."
The section printed makes it appear as though the JDL sees the murders as just for no reason. The JDL defends its stance with much more information than that given in the article. With so much cut out, it gives a misleading presentation of the JDLs statements. More is needed for proper accuracy.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jayhoffer (talk • contribs) 18:58, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You are welcome to add the appropriate information to the article. Some balance is badly needed in many articles on the Mid East conflict.--Kalsermar (talk) 17:26, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading/biased piece. 

message: This recent addition, supported by this external also needs removing imo - it seems to have been added in some way to support inclusion of the grafiti picture.. - it asserts in wikipedia's voice, as if fact that - 
* - Members of the JDL have put graffiti on the walls of Palestinian houses with the words "Gas the Arabs" and "Arabs to the gas chambers".35
Who are these members? If it has so clearly been done by these members who are they? how is this fact known?   Youreallycan 18:40, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The use of the translation link is inappropriate; there should be a url to the original Italian publication, plus translation (already there). The translation itself, which contains a passing mention in a run-on sentence, is barely coherent. Overall, the source is not reliable for its commentary on JDL, and it does not clearly support the assertions made in the article for the reasons pointed out by Youreallycan. JFHJr (㊟) 19:02, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid Youreallycan starts with a couple of false premises; for one thing, it has nothing to do with any picture.  Note to JFHR: the reference I added to support the piece does link to the original italian publication.  If you think the translation provided by YRC is incoherent, then you can consult my own translation (in the reference itself), which is just fine.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:27, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Your presenting it as if fact and as a minimum the assertion needs attribution. Or do you have multiple reliable sources that assert this? Have named members of this organization gone there and been filmed doing what you assert, or have named members of this organization made statements saying they did what you assert, and do you have wikipedia reliable sources to support your addition?    Youreallycan 19:36, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

text: Currently I am on a 0 revert condition - but, as soon as it is over I will be removing this addition - its unsupportable as it currently stands by any en wikipedia policy interpretation. Feel free to make a case for its inclusion prior to that timeline.  Youreallycan 20:06, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: First you muddy the waters by misrepresenting the situation.  Now you propose to set your own standards for inclusion (named members, filmed, statements) that have no basis in policy.  I'll be happy to have others offer their views on what is appropriate here.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:31, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Your refusal to re - evaluate and revert your (now disputed) addition reflects badly on you imo. Its your addition - make your case now - I didn't "muddy any waters"  - your addition was closely followed by the disputed pictures inclusion - (since removed) as it follows on totally from your desired addition.  Attribution is a major policy position, such requests are not my desire or my guidelines at all. -    Youreallycan 20:37, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Guys, let's stick to the relevant elements.  You can criticize the translation all you want, but the source is the original Italian article not the translation.  The Italian article justifies the claim that was made in the article.  Furthermore, a verifiable source in wikipedia doesn't need to present a video confession to justify the claims that it's making.  If you have legitimate problems with the reliability of the source then that is the case you need to be making.  Greg Comlish (talk) 13:49, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It simply needs attributing to whosoevers opinion it is - whose opinion is it?   Youreallycan 15:28, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The reference is a news article, not an opinion piece, and it has already been sourced.  Greg Comlish (talk) 19:48, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: What details are presented in the article to support this claim? - we can not use weak citations to present opinion as if fact. What is the article authors name?   Youreallycan 20:00, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: recent addition

message: OK, just to make things easier for others to follow a recap. Feel free to add insights that I have not included.
The picture showing "Gas the Arabs" is in dispute here the Arabs painted in Hebron.jpg. There is no proof this particular graffiti was sprayed by a member of this group nor that this is a policy of the JDL. There is an alternate image available that shows graffiti with the JDL logo . The fact that graffiti of this kind, purportedly from the JDL, is already mentioned in the article. At least 5 editors so far have voiced opposition to including the image.
Proponents of including the image state that it is not being stated that the JDL made the graffiti but merely that it is signed JDL. The frequent use of the image outside of Wikipedia makes it fit for inclusion. At least 4 editors are for inclusion of the image.
See this talkpage for all the minutae.
Is an image without solid sourcing acceptable or not? Should not the less controversial alternative be used? Opinions from outside editors would be appreciated.--Kalsermar (talk) 21:33, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recap 

message: Internet Archive, go. --Niemti (talk) 16:31, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lots of dead links 

message: An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:50, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC 

message: The existing content should be carefully moved into the main body, and the lead re-written as a proper summary of the whole article. --Niemti (talk) 15:20, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  A rewrite for the lead section is needed 

message: *It's "former terrorist organization".
*The website is offline.
*Shelley Rubin is apparently no longer active. [An upcoming documentary: "Archetypal good Jewish girl Shelley, escapes family expectations by falling in love with the leader of America’s most active terrorist organization. Thrust into a world that walks the line between activism and terrorism, Shelley faces alienation from her family, then the imprisonment and violent death of her friends, her husband and ultimately her son. Shattered by this experience, Shelley must 30 years later, rebuild her own life. But before this, old debts must be paid. She must find a new leader for the Jewish Defence League. Her choice gives someone else the top job and all the perils associated with violent extremism … or does it?"]
--Niemti (talk) 09:23, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It became defunct some time before 1995. JDL actions in the mid 90's consisted of 3 or 4 apparently homeless men who engaged in disorderly conduct in public. I fondly recall them yelling at a group of lesbians who were protesting in front of a Catholic church in Westwood, CA: "Yah, lookit those hairy legs!". During the 80's, I was invited to a protest by the JDL that consisted of Irv Rubin and a dozen kids from AZA and BBG yelling a lot. I was told to wear hiking boots or motorcycle boots so I could help kick the NAZI's. It was a lot of silliness and the members were uniformly pathetic, bored youth. It's hard to believe they were ever a credible threat to anyone.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.215.115.31 (talk) 22:43, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Shelly Rubin usurped control of the JDL upon Irv's death, falsely believing she had "inherited" it from him. It doesn't work this way, and has never worked this way. But, in the early 2000s, the actual JDL leadership decided to disband due to being overshadowed by Shelly and her band of clowns. 172.58.208.177 (talk) 13:48, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is the American JDL actually defunct? 

message: This group is categorized as a "Jewish-American gang" but while it sounds paramilitary, it doesn't sound like the group fits the description of a "gang". Thoughts? Liz Read! Talk! 21:30, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gang? 

message: Re the recent IP edits, and in particular this lovely edit summary: "The whole purpose of the Jewish Defense League is to fight against anti-Semitism. Calling it racist makes no sense"  -- dealing with anti-Semitism by acting in bigoted ways against non-Jews is hardly inconsistent with racism.  I'll revert soon, but naturally if anyone has a sensible point to make…  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:00, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Being "bigoted" against racists is racist? Then by your logic, the Southern Poverty Law Center, Martin Luther King Jr., Black Panthers, Anti-Defamation League, and all other anti-racist people and groups are also racist.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.109.45.181 (talk) 02:30, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Racism

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Jewish Defense League. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Since the same article talks about JDL Canada, JDL France, etc, it is not correct to describe it as a US organization. If JDL France (LDJ) is an independent organization, this should be made clear, and the article should be split. --Wiking (talk) 16:45, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  JDL US, Canada, France? 

message: It seems clear from the article itself as well as from the multitude of referenced RS that although the JDL was in one way or another responsible for many violent acts, and its offices were raided by the FBI, it was never, nonetheless, shut down or designated as a terrorist organization. Per :Category:Organizations designated as terrorist in North America description, Articles placed in this category should also be in at least one category under :Category:Organizations designated as terrorist by designator. In this case, we do not have such a designator. --Wiking (talk) 20:09, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: They are of course misquoting the same FBI source they are using. If you read the linked FBI source, you will see the source never says the JDL is a RWTO. Sir Joseph (talk) 17:49, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: So the sources are "wrong"?  Everyone is wrong except for you??  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:54, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

text: If it is an misinterpretation it is a misinterpretation that is consistently made by countless very reliable secondary sources. Wikipedia is based on secondary sources, not on the opinions of its editors. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:01, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Circular logic/referencing, the news sources are citing the FBI report. But, A Solution → Find independent sources or articles discussing the JDL and then perhaps use those unless the FBI report is the only source that doesn't reference the FBI report? In which case, scrap it since it is UNDUE. Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 06:43, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  You can't cite a source citing the FBI and use that as a source. That's circular logic. The FBI did not state the JDL is a terrorist organization in this source, they said the JDL is an extremist organization. Your bias is showing. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:51, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

text: Thanks for proving my point. I take it you didn't read the report. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:57, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  In any event, if you look at the recent reports, one from this decade, the JDL is not listed at all, so this is most certainly WP:UNDUE and WP:BIAS to include. The most recent PDF is 2008 and the NCTC site doesn't even have JDL listed which is listed as current but doesn't have guides listed.Sir Joseph (talk) 16:01, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organizations designated as terrorist in North America 

message: Currently bulk of the article's content appears in the section titled "Terrorism and other illegal activities", in violation of WP:NPOV. The JDL is notable for a number of actions and events, many, but not all of which were violent, and the majority of which were neither linked to terrorism nor illegal. JDL activists participated in a great number of lawful demonstrations and acts of civil disobedience, covered by major media outlets. I propose removing this title and breaking up the section by period of activity, with each subsection proportional in size to the amount of news coverage that the JDL received during the corresponding period. --Wiking (talk) 21:15, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terrorism and other illegal activities 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'm too new to editing in Wikipedia (as in never) so I declined to try putting my suggested into practice.  Instead I thought I'd raise the issue and get a response from those who have been doing this a while.
Reading this, I noticed the JDL was considered "Right Wing" but I think in today's world it is the "Left Wing" doing the opposing of antisemitism and racism and opposing the russian influence.   
That's my two cents.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by FirefighterGeek (talk • contribs) 15:53, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering the fact that they were a hardcore zionist group and allied with far-right groups such as the EDL as well as being avowed anti-communists, I think it's fair to call them right wing. In addition, the Soviet Union with much further left than pretty much all countries at the time. JRizzled (talk) 06:30, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should this organization still be considered "Right Wing" as posted? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In the opening sentence, "whatever means necessary" should link to the article By any means necessary for context on the subtext and history behind this phrase. 50.81.227.4 (talk) 14:58, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:30, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 2 August 2018 

message: https://forward.com/fast-forward/390450/jewish-defense-league-white-supremacists-booted-off-twitter/
Should be included in the Article.  No mention of "Twitter" at all.Tym Whittier (talk) 18:31, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  JDL Kicked off Twitter 

message: I was reading the article The Woman on the Bridge. It details the suicide of Gloria Jean D’Argenios (a.k.a. Estelle Evans), who committed suicide after Meir Kahane (a.k.a. Michael King) broke-off an affair with her.
King/Kahane said he setup a memorial foundation in her name after she died, but it was used to funnel money to the Jewish Defense Fund:
[After her death] ... he set up a memorial foundation in her name, which was a Trojan horse to raise money for the organization that became the Jewish Defense League.
And:
All his underlying hatred for others seeded the origin for the JDL in the spring of 1968. “We have no great funds, no great influence, so the answer is simple: to do outrageous things,” he told New York Times reporter Michael Kaufman in January 1971. Money had to be raised, though, and it required setting up charitable, tax-exempt foundations. One of them, incorporated in August 1967, a full six months before the official existence of the JDL, bore the name of Estelle Donna Evans.
Finally:
When [New York Times reporter Michael Kaufman] Kaufman asked Kahane about the foundation’s namesake, the rabbi claimed she had been his former secretary in his failed consulting operation, she had died of terminal cancer, and her “well-to-do” family had endowed the foundation.
I believe that is text book money laundering.
Jeffrey Walton  (talk) 15:44, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable early funding 

message: hi  I have indeed read the article. You reverted my deletion of the category: anti-islam sentiment, but didn't address the problem: namely that per the category's own description, we are not supposed to file people, groups or institutions under it. So, I would like to ask you to self-revert or otherwise we could start addressing the actual problem here: that the RFC from 2011 I linked in my edit doesn’t reflect Wikipedia consensus anymore. What would you like? (related discussion: Talk:Project_Veritas#Category:_anti-islam_sentiment) Best, Mvbaron (talk) 14:26, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This article covers violent acts against Muslims. Not just the group. nableezy - 17:09, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Im sorry but this makes no sense. This article is quite obviously about a group, an organisation as the lede says, and category:anti-Islam sentiment says “It must not include articles about individuals, groups or media that are allegedly anti-Islam.” I’m happy to go ahead with a RFC to re-evaluate consensus on the category but the issue is not so easily waved away as you make it look like. Mvbaron (talk) 17:30, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  category: anti-islam sentiment etc 

message: According to the last sentence of the first paragraph of the lead, the group is designated “inactive” by many lists, but this isn’t expanded on in the body at all, and it doesn’t appear to be supported by the source. Can anyone clarify? — HTGS (talk) 05:18, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm wondering the same thing. There website is inactive, and I can't find any media coverage from the past few years. Marquardtika (talk) 02:02, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's something that might be useful. Marquardtika (talk) 02:03, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inactive? 

message: A major leader of the Jewish Defense League in Israel (Itamar Ben Gvir) was elected to the Knesset yesterday in a party that will be the second largest in Netanyahu's future coalition. Worth updating?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.1.159.151 (talk) 13:42, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Ben Gvir's party is Jewish Power ... is that related to the JDL? Sources? Iskandar323 (talk) 14:19, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  update 

message: __________
In the introduction, please change:
 "The Jewish Defense League (JDL) is a far-right religious and political organization in the United States and Canada."
to:
"The Jewish Defense League (JDL) is a far-right religious and political organization in the United States and Canada founded in 1968"
while the founding date is listed elsewhere, that date should be in the introduction-- mainly, because now it sounds now like it was founded in the 2000s, given the reference to when JDL was listed on the FBI terrorism watch list. The intro should clearly indicate how long the organization has existed.
Thank you. 71.167.251.99 (talk) 18:29, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see the need for this. It clearly states the founding year in the lede just a few sentences down. The info about the terror classification is important enough of a point to have been mentioned right at the top, and the historical info can be found shortly thereafter. StonyBrook babble 20:15, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 December 2023