Talk:Jewish reactions to intelligent design

message: I was asked by someone to review this article. I think it looks pretty good overall, but I have three basic objections:
1. The article describes ID as an argument for the existence of God. Many ID advocates would disagree with that statement. They would say that ID can be used as an argument for God's existence, but that the theory in itself is not inherently theological.
2. I don't think the anthropic principle is really relevant. While many ID advocates have referred to this principle, it is separate from the ID argument itself, which primarily concerns biology.
3. The article claims that Haredim have expressed an openness to nonliteral interpretations of Genesis. This I believe is misleading. While it may be true of certain Haredi groups (e.g. Aish HaTorah, if you consider them Haredi), the Slifkin affair was a reminder that there is in fact widespread opposition to nonliteralism in the Haredi world. (The dominance of the Oral Law does not make them any more open to accepting an allegorical interpretation of Genesis.) marbeh raglaim 18:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  My comments 

message: The fact that the content of the Talk Page was "archived" (i.e. "reset", and in a sense "erased" or placed behind "intellectual fog") shows that the approach to the article and the discussion was unproductive and appears to be motivated by a strong desire to control and impose views rather than present and understand "Jewish views" on the subject of Intelligent Design and Evolution (ID+E) and engage in spirited, inspired and democratic dialogue on the Talk Page to sharpen issues.
The article seems to be commenting on so called "Jewish views" specifically on the Discovery Institute views of ID+E. If so, it should state this clearly and appropriately label the article. Not doing so is inappropriate.
The authors seem to think "Jewish views" are those expressed by Jewish organizations. Those are "Jewish organizational views" only .... On controversial issues or those beyond day to day issues organization views and actions often fail - as they did during the Holocaust when the major Jewish organization leaders failed their brethren and unfortunately frequently sabotaged rescue of Jews (e.g. persistent sabotage of Hillel Kook's and his Bergson Group's rescue efforts). Due to organizational bias the article does not include views of creative and insightful Jewish "individuals". This is contrary to "Jewish view", where the individual (the "Tzelem Elokim") is the focal point, not groups and organizations. 
The article doesn't cover inspired scientific insights/models related to the problem. Considering that the issue is specifically about a scientific matter this is at best an anomaly and perhaps reflects the authors' mind set.
The article presents Jews as desiring to censor education, wishing to obstruct freedom of speech and thought, and fit to be inheritors of the losers of the Monkey Trial. The original cast lost because they wanted to prohibit teaching scientific models based on E (evolution). Surprisingly, the Monkey Trial II losers (the supposed holders of primarily "liberal" "Jewish views" on ID+E) seem to follow the Monkey Trial legacy and are intellectually losers because they want to say "verboten" to exploring models based on ID (intelligent design). The article portrays Jews as scientifically ignorant and unimaginative, and dogmatic. With this approach science teaching and research can be as dogmatic as was the Catholic church centuries ago. Do we, Jews, really want to control and limit imagination in a science on the way the world was formed at various levels (universe/multiverse, solar system, planet Earth, initial life on the planet, complex life forms, intelligence). Doesn't the separation of church and state doctrine imply that the only valid "Jewish view" is to leave science to scientist and not theologize or anti-theologize it? Both approaches would be wrong. Hopefully there are "Jewish views" which state that we must leave science to the scientists and have faith in the system of peer review to eventually flush out theories which skipped the track ... Those who wish to control the scientific enterprise in the name of "Jewish views" in effect want to sterilize scientific imagination and vistas and are as anti-science as was the Church when it tried to censor Copernicus etc.
It is advised to go back to the drawing board in the article and survey a much broader range of "Jewish views". Also, if some Jews/group spokesmen are closed minded, dictatorial or limited in their thinking, or are motivated by politics rather than scientific views on ID+E, that should be made explicit.Emesz 21:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that Jewish organisational views should not be purported to represent the views of all Jews. This aside wikipedia requires verifiable third party publications, as it is a tertiary source. This means that organisational views are going to be overepresented, it is the role of editors not to place WP:UNDUE weight on these sources, and accurately represent what they portray. User:Metz has done excellent research on the topic, but I do have concerns about his style and tone in creating encyclopedia articles.--ZayZayEM 03:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reset? and Restart?

message: ZayZayEM - as you noted in the archived material, the article title is ambiguous and seems to refer to the so called "Discovery Institute" views, rather than ID+E in general. The first step seems to be correcting the title and then work on the article as needed thru a democratic process and realize that no one "owns" it. It is hoped that whoever contributes to the article has no political, religious or secular/anti-religious agenda and merely aims to have a factual and valuable article on the subject.Emesz 11:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambiguate the Title

message: The use of the pocket watch was just brilliant; the pocket watch has been a symbol of "intelligent design" for years now, and it has become its defacto logo.  I'm sorry but I needed to praise the choice of picture.  It makes perfect sense; a watch has a purpose, structure, all specifically, well, designed, to keep track of time.  Ultimately this is not a forum so I can not post any more of my views, moreover, it is a highly sensitive subject.  I do however, feel compelled to point something out; dogma, scientific or religious, is not a good thing.  Mao Zedong is famous as having said "religion is poison."  To that I counter that DOGMA, is poison, TYRANNY, is poison, selfish people who hold power THAT, is poison, and yes I agree some ideologies ARE poison.  Mao Zedong felt disgust, at how Chinese society was permeated with superstition, and ignorance, and he blamed religion for the widespread old wive's tales and relative ignornace of the Chinese population of his generation.
The thing is, it was not religion, but tyranny, which made the Chinese people ignorant.  I do agree, some religions ARE poisonous, any ideology that justifies mass murder, like for example Norse Mythology, can be considered poison and SHOULD be banned.  In Norse Myth, according to their creation stories regarding the beginings of the human race, the human race was fathered by the guardian of the Bisfrost rainbow bridge Heimdall.  Heimdall, through the adulterous union with three women, one young, one middle aged, and one old, fathered the human race.  The ones fathered on the old woman, became the weak, feeble, "inferior nonwhite" peoples of the world, the ones fathered on the middle aged woman became the peoples of Europe, while the ones fathered on the young woman were "broad shouldered, tall, strong, and cunning," in short "strong and smart," the traditional racist view of the white race.  It was therefore a Viking's duty, to massacre as many people as possible in battle, to secure his entry into Valhalla.  When Mao Zedong said "religion is poison" THAT, is what he meant; stuff like racist Norse myth.  Adolf Hitler, did not create the idea of nordic supremacy, he merely revived it.  However prior to Hitler, Christians had massacred their share of people.
One disturbing thing I have seen, is how each side accuses the other, of being responsible for all the massacres in human history.  Religionists accuse secularists saying that secularists produced the likes of Stalin, and of course "Chairman Mao."  Secularists often retort, that Islamic terrorists are placing the world on the brink of nuclear catastrophe.  Muslims in turn retort by saying, that their "religious fanatic" society, never produced a Hitler.  Long story short both sides have agreed to disagree.
I need to ask wikipedia readers and moderators, how many of you consider yourselves to be truly American?  Even if you are not an American, do you respect the U.S. constitution's first ammendment?  The more you look at the conflict, the dogma, the often tyranical position taken by both secularist and religious sides, the more you respect the first ammendment.  Many of history's worst catastrophes, regarding the human cost, came from people forcing ideologies on others.  Jewish religious dogma, for example, paralyzed the descendants of David; the relationship of David's descendants and the high priests, was akin to the relationship between Leonidas and the Ephors in "The 300."  I'm sure you've all seen that movie; in the same way the Ephors were corrupt, and basically evil, paralyzing the king with religious dogma, the high priests of ancient Israel, similarly, paralyzed any actions the kings could take.  Consequently ancient Israel was repeatedly conquered and subjugated.
Despite centuries of persecution, and outright massacres they stubbornly hold on to their often tyranical views of the world.  Judaism, is severely restrictive, regarding personal freedom; people need some sort of ethical guidance, to not get in the way of others, being inherently selfish creatures human beings need some sort of guidance to keep said selfishness under control, however where Judaism goes wrong, is that it goes to the extreme of TOTAL control, and I feel that ethically, that's wrong.  I use Judaism as an example, because, historical evidence does point to the fact, that inpractical religious dogma, is what led to military defeats for ancient Israel.  On the opposite end of the spectrum, the polar opposite of Judaism, Nazism, like Judaism, it seeks complete and total dominance, over a person's life, even their reproductive habits.  A given beautiful blonde girl for example, may want to marry a guy from Thailand; however under Nazi Germany, she will be forced to breed with a blonde guy she has no feelings for or chemistry with.  Under the nazis, people did not even have control over their own bodies, and what did that lead to?  Germany's defeat; technologically, Nazi Germany was a full 40 years ahead of the allies.  They had stealth technology, jet planes, 50 caliber machine guns that could be mounted in all kinds of places, tanks so advanced, the design was changed very little when the U.S. made the infamous Abrams tank.  Even the Israeli Merkava tank, considered the best in the world follows patterns of nazi design, ironic, considering the history.  What led to Germany's defeat, is that if a people have no freedom, they lose their humanity; by all rights, logistically, Germany should not have lost the war.  It lost because the people lived in fear, could not function at their fullest potential, whereas Americans could, at least for those short war years.
When you consider the strict logistics, Germany should not have lost WWII; it lost, because the people were demoralized, living in fear of their government.  When someone controls your life, when you have no freedom, as a human being you can not function at your very best.  On the opposite end of the spectrum if a society is TOO permissive, if a society basically has no law, or only very few like the ancient Celts did, it leads to a culture of hedonism and pleasure seeking where, engaging in such pursuits makes people selfish and causes them to lose their humanity.  The ancient Celts, had an extremely permissive culture, some Celtic tribes, with some of them, rates of illegitimate births were extremely high, and adultery was common place.  If you have extremes of control through numberless rules, people become automatons, lose their humanity, and the proverbial "human spirit."  However if you have extreme permissiveness people become selfish children.
I needed to make this long comment on the article, because ocassionally reading about this on wikipedia I see a lot of inflamatory comments, a lot of attacks from both sides.  On youtube you see similar "war" going on.  You have atheissts with no respect to the religious beliefs of others, and you have religious types who as the stereotype goes are bible thumping parrots.  Kudos to wikipedia, for promoting freedom; I give a word of caution, to all Americans.  That word is, that if Wikipedia is ever taken off line, and Link T.V. is ever taken off the air, its time to leave the country.  If Wikipedia is ever taken off line, it heralds danger; it means the U.S. will truly fall under a dictatorship.
Please take care, that Wikipedia and Link T.V. are not taken down; if they are ever taken down, it will spell great danger, for the people of the U.S.
67.148.120.103 (talk)stardingo747  —Preceding undated comment added 02:25, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Praise for picture choice allowed in an article? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Jewish reactions to intelligent design. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20070417185657/http://www.jtsa.edu:80/research/finkelstein/surveys/evolution.shtml to http://www.jtsa.edu/research/finkelstein/surveys/evolution.shtml
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 11:24, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Jewish reactions to intelligent design. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.jtsa.edu/research/finkelstein/surveys/evolution.shtml
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927205801/http://urj.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=10238&pge_prg_id=34230&pge_id=1625 to http://urj.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=10238&pge_prg_id=34230&pge_id=1625
*Added  tag to http://www.nssbethel.org/uploads/8599ParshatNoahNovember
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070202141800/http://www.bethyeshurun.org/evolution.htm to http://www.bethyeshurun.org/evolution.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:55, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Jewish reactions to intelligent design. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070403043248/http://www.adl.org/issue_religious_freedom/create/creationism_QA.asp to http://www.adl.org/issue_religious_freedom/create/creationism_QA.asp
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060427021117/http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jwst/sci.htm to http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jwst/sci.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:40, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified