Talk:John Buchan

message: For those who think a lower case t is appropriate in this case; you have an immense job of fixing Wikipedia, or else admitting that maybe the captital T may after all be correct usage.
Please check out every other instance in Wikipedia such as in this very same infobox The Earl of Bessborough and The Earl of Athlone. Review the List_of_Governors_General_of_Canada#Governors General of Canada, 1867–present see any lower case ts?  If you are referring to someone like the Duke of Omnium inside a sentence then I agree that a lower case t is correct, but if you say "The Duke of Omnium is an ass". Then it is an uppercase T. When starting a phrase or sentence then we use capitals in English as I was taught it. Also Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Titles of people refers to Royal_and_noble_styles and if you look at the section on the United Kingdom, you will see capital Ts in abundance. Dabbler (talk) 18:49, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: the Lord Tweedsmuir versus The Lord Tweedsmuir

message: Use of cap and uncap T can be seen by looking at the following examples of infobox titles for some g-gs of Canada and Australia:
* The Right Honourable the Lord Tweedsmuir
* Captain the Right Honourable the Earl of Bessborough
* the Right Honourable the Earl of Athlone
* The Right Honourable The Lord Lisgar
* The Most Honourable The Marquess of Dufferin and Ava
* The Right Honourable The Earl of Derby
* The Most Honourable The Marquess of Aberdeen and Temair
* The Right Honourable The Earl of Minto
* Captain The Right Honourable The Earl Grey
* His Grace the Duke of Devonshire
* Field Marshal the Right Honourable the Viscount Byng of Vimy
* The Most Honourable The Marquess of Linlithgow
* The Right Honourable The Lord Tennyson
* The Right Honourable The Lord Northcote
* The Right Honourable The Earl of Dudley
as of 18.55 Qexigator (talk) 19:16, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The Manual of Style is the basic guideline for all of Wikipedia. MOS:CAPS (MOS:JOBTITLES, more specifically) doesn't say "The Queen" should be used; it shows "the Queen". Ergo, it's "the Lord [X]", not "The Lord [X]". Please feel free to fix deviations where you see them. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 20:57, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: So you would write as a title to a picture of Her Majesty - "the Queen reviews the troops"? or would you actually write "The Queen reviews the troops"?  similarly in writing an article do you begin every sentence with a lowercase letter? From the evidence, you don't. It is plain simple English language usage, not some fancy arcane Wikipedia lingo or some weird nobility thing I am discussing here. Dabbler (talk) 21:57, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

text: I do not see any examples of capitalizing "the" except where it is the first word in a sentence or where all the letters are capitalized.  It is no different from the Mayor of Perth, the Governor of New South Wales, the Prime Minister of Australia.  TFD (talk) 02:53, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

text: If you wish to see Wikipedia's manual of style changed, that's fine. But, it's not a matter to be discussed at this page. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 22:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not think the Manual of Style needs changing, I think you are misunderstanding one short phrase in it and applying that misapprehension to the whole. Can you show me anywhere in the Manual of Style that it says tat the use of "The Lord X" or even "The Queen" at the start of a phrase or sentence is incorrect? I have put a request on the appropriate Talk Page but so far no one has responded. Dabbler (talk) 22:53, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: "Start of a phrase or sentence"... What are you talking about? Those aren't the same thing and neither apply here. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 23:36, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

text: Also, see here. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 00:03, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Noted "context specific" at that link. Qexigator (talk) 00:44, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

text: We would capitalize "the" at the beginning of any sentence because "the" is always capitalized when it is the first word in a sentence, as are most words.  TFD (talk) 02:48, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems from your link that Debrett's agrees with me that it should be capitalised when it starts a sentence r is a standalone heading. "Debretts seems to use lower-case for 'the' except where it starts a sentence or on invitations. etc. 'Capt the Earl of'/ 'The Earl of'. " I have often repeated, but you don't seem to read that bit, that I agree with you that it should be a lowercase t in the middle of a sentence, just not in the heading or the start of a sentence. Dabbler (talk) 04:27, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The infobox is neither the beginning nor part of a sentence, nor a collection of sentences, and the manner of punctuating a sentence is not in question. Qexigator (talk) 08:32, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

text: like the caption of a picture: that makes better sense. Qexigator (talk) 13:57, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

text: Compare: "The Lord Tweedsmuir in Native headdress, 1937" (File:LordTweedsmuirHeaddress.jpg), and image at Order of the Companions of Honour.  Qexigator (talk) 14:18, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

text: I agree it looks peculiar in the caption, especially the way the line is split.  However:
Pears Cyclopedia, 66th Edition (1957-58), pp. 649-650, "MODES OF ADDRESS TO PERSONS OF RANK", gives several examples of lowercase [t]he in the middle of a string of honours.  BTW, this is in conflict with the Wikipedia article Forms of address in the United Kingdom.  I trust Pears on this issue.D A Patriarche, BSc 01:03, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

text: It is there because in the most formal usage for United Kingdom peers, and all of these GGs were UK peers, that is how they are addressed. See Forms of address in the United Kingdom for details and examples. In everyday conversation you would just say "Lord Tweedsmuir" but if you were formally addressing a letter or announcing him at an event, you could say "The Lord Tweedsmuir". If listing him among other peers and you wanted to identify him exactly, you would put "John Buchan, 1st Baron Tweedsmuir". Dabbler (talk) 18:57, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: What reason is there to assume that infoboxes purport to be a guide to modes of address? Should they pretend, or be supposed, to be such? The content should be as concise as possible, and avoid unneeded decorative words, which are liable to inaccuracy and discussion on endlessly disputable points of no importance to the content of an article. Qexigator (talk) 19:16, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you realise you said above "This is, or should be, about formal styles of address"? This seems to me to be a carry-on. Thincat (talk) 20:14, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Roger, I had not forgotten my earlier comment, but as the discussion continued, it appeared to me that there is a more fundamental question: Why is it there at all? Have you a useful and thoughtful comment to make about that, perhaps based on what can be found in BNA? Qexigator (talk) 20:48, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It is how he would be officially referred to.  People would not refer to him as the 1st Baron for example.  TFD (talk) 03:51, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

text: The infobox gives the full title and style (and post-nominals) Buchan held at the end of his life: The Right Honourable the Lord Tweedsmuir GCMG GCVO CH PC. "The Lord [X]" is the formal way to address a baron. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 01:54, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

text: Actually, now that I think of it, Buchan died in office. His last title and style therefore was His Excellency the Right Honourable the Lord Tweedsmuir. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 03:55, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, that rationale settles it, for me at least. Qexigator (talk) 06:43, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox, cap Ts 

message: The definite article is not needed either in the infobox title, or for "Preceded by The Earl of Bessborough, Succeeded by The Earl of Athlone". It is not used in "Spouse(s) Susan Buchan, Baroness Tweedsmuir" or  "Religion Free Church of Scotland, United Free Church of Scotland, Church of Scotland". When were these infobox templates introduced, and how did the use of surplus "t/The"s get a hold? Qexigator (talk) 14:33, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It is there because in the most formal usage for United Kingdom peers, and all of these GGs were UK peers, that is how they are addressed. See Forms of address in the United Kingdom for details and examples. In everyday conversation you would just say "Lord Tweedsmuir" but if you were formally addressing a letter or announcing him at an event, you could say "The Lord Tweedsmuir". If listing him among other peers and you wanted to identify him exactly, you would put "John Buchan, 1st Baron Tweedsmuir". Dabbler (talk) 18:57, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: What reason is there to assume that infoboxes purport to be a guide to modes of address? Should they pretend, or be supposed, to be such? The content should be as concise as possible, and avoid unneeded decorative words, which are liable to inaccuracy and discussion on endlessly disputable points of no importance to the content of an article. Qexigator (talk) 19:16, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you realise you said above "This is, or should be, about formal styles of address"? This seems to me to be a carry-on. Thincat (talk) 20:14, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Roger, I had not forgotten my earlier comment, but as the discussion continued, it appeared to me that there is a more fundamental question: Why is it there at all? Have you a useful and thoughtful comment to make about that, perhaps based on what can be found in BNA? Qexigator (talk) 20:48, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It is how he would be officially referred to.  People would not refer to him as the 1st Baron for example.  TFD (talk) 03:51, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

text: The infobox gives the full title and style (and post-nominals) Buchan held at the end of his life: The Right Honourable the Lord Tweedsmuir GCMG GCVO CH PC. "The Lord [X]" is the formal way to address a baron. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 01:54, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

text: Actually, now that I think of it, Buchan died in office. His last title and style therefore was His Excellency the Right Honourable the Lord Tweedsmuir. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 03:55, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, that rationale settles it, for me at least. Qexigator (talk) 06:43, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Why is it there at all?

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replies: text: So-called dead link is actually still valid. Dabbler (talk) 10:33, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I found a replica page on the same person Baron_Tweedsmuir, I have suggested the information be merged to here. (apologies if I have done this wrong I am new to this)  Claireliontamer (talk) 17:10, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Baron Tweedsmuir is about the title and its four holders, whereas this article is about the first holder. I think there's sufficient information and sufficient difference in topics to keep the two separate. DrKay (talk) 17:30, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with User:DrKay the pages are different, one discusses and individual and the other is a common type of page for all British peerages which documents and links all holders of the title through history. The Baron Tweedsmuir page links to three of the four Barons Tweedsmuir so merging would destroy that. I have removed the notices. Dabbler (talk) 14:36, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge information from Baron Tweedsmuir Page

message: I removed a sentence which was said to have been sourced in Hansard according to this citation https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1932/nov/24/debate-on-the-address#S5CV0272P0_19321124_HOC_159 On the contrary, it indicates that John Buchan was very much a Unnionist and opposed to a Scottish parliament and no such statement as the one removed is found in the citation. The citation did however confirm the preceding sentence. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 01:35, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scottish Unionist MP 

message: A list of his books would be nice. Seadowns (talk) 14:22, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: See List of works by John Buchan.  MichaelMaggs (talk) 14:13, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Works 

message: John Buchan was pro Jewish. He condemned lies about Jews and supported the idea of a state of Israel. He presented characters who show all sorts of attitudes that were common in his time, confusing a character with the author is not very intelligent.2A00:23C5:D08B:CE01:24AE:3E3:4DB1:9036 (talk) 15:36, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Hitchens? Oh, dear. Why is he an authority? And saying 'even by the standards of the time' is utterly absurd — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.21.141 (talk) 20:06, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  The comment above is anonymous.  Could someone (perhaps the person who made it if they aren't too shy) explain (a) why Christopher Hitchens shouldn't be used as an authority and (b) why the phrase 'even by the standards of the time' is "utterly absurd"?  BobBadg (talk) 18:16, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

text: In the absence of any further comments I've gone ahead and added something concerning the above, including a reference from 'Conservative History' website.  I don't know if the anonymous commentator would consider that  an authority, though. BobBadg (talk) 13:02, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: An excellent documentary on BBC4 - broadcast 3 June 2022 - rules out that Buchan was anti-Semitic. It shows that Buchan was pro-Jewish and defended the Jews in his own letters. References to anti-Semitism in the novels reflect the views of flawed characters ie Scudder. Kentish 00:18, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was Buchan  racist and anti-semitic 

message: Now this article has a picture of his medals at the National Museum of Scotland, I can tell you what his full range of decorations was if that could help those looking for medal ribbons to put in the depicted medal ribbon bar, from left to right:
Queen's South Africa Medal (with three clasps): British War Medal 1914-1920: Allied Victory Medal 1914-1919: George V Silver Jubilee Medal: George VI Coronation Medal: Order of the Crown of Belgium: Order of the Crown of Italy: Belgian Croix de Guerre 1914-1918 (with what vaguely appears to be a palm or laurel branch on its ribbon).
Obviously the pictured medals do not include his three British Orders which would not be worn as medals on the chest.Cloptonson (talk) 15:47, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Honours (continuation of archived talk point)