Talk:Reading Lolita in Tehran

message: This is an encyclopedic article. One can add something only if that is a fact.
I've deleted the following, no reference is given
"Despite its success in attracting many in the west, Reading Lolita in Tehran has not been able to attract many Iranians who believe she unjustly caricatures the country."   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.101.170 (talk) 04:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  The referenced interview is at the bottom of the page.--CltFn 12:24, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is no evidence either in the movie or in the link which indicates that: 1. In 1995, by having a book meeting at home, Azar Nafisi risked her life. Or by taking off your veil at home you would risk your life in Iran. 2. Her last post was not in Tehran University but Allameh Tabatabaei Univ. and she was not expelled from this University due to refusing to wear the veil. She resigned and for two years the University wanted to brought her back. 3. There is no statement supporting the claim that in 1995 (when Nafisi organized the meetings), Islamic morality squads raid in Tehran, and fundamentalists purge the universities' curriculums !! (which actually happened almost 15 years before 1995 !). Again I would like to emphasize that what ever Nafisi says is her own personal opinion and we should put those statements between quotation marks. What ever she says is not a fact about Iran. Please notice NPOV.  -- Mitso Bel
I find these claims very interesting. I realize that evidence for them may only be in Farsi, which I unfortunately can't read. Do you happen to have references in English or any other language that users of en-WP are likely to be able to read? If so, I suggest rewriting the article accordingly and putting in footnotes. -- Hoary 06:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  only facts may be included 

message: We read: Published in 2003 and it is now in its 15th printing, it has been translated into 12 languages including two Chinese dialects.
# In its 15th printing of which edition? (Random House? Fourth Estate? Something else?) And who cares, and who is watching out for a 16th edition?
#It is extremely unusual for any book to come out in any dialect of Chinese. Books normally come out in Chinese. (The orthographic conventions may differ.) What does this mean, or what is the source for it? -- Hoary 05:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Built-in obsolescence, and extraordinary Chinese 

message: We read:
:The book title which alludes to Vladimir Nabokov's novel Lolita, a story about a 38 year old man who becomes sexually obsessed with a 12 year old pubescent girl and who rapes and molests her over a period of 2 years until she escapes, is an indirect reference to the Islamic regime which took power in 1979 in Iran and whose first step was to lower the marriage age for girls to 9 years old.
Aside from the need for references to the less plausible bits, this makes no sense. The title is Reading "Lolita" in Tehran. It will be obvious to any literate anglophone that this is about Lolita. Where is the allusion? And how can the title be an indirect reference to the Islamic regime? -- Hoary 06:36, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have sourced the quote, may I suggest that you actually read the book and read the various interviews that Azar had done regarding her book for greater insight for this article.--CltFn 04:32, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  How about reading the C-Span interview for starters?--CltFn 05:58, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: You mean you glanced at it? , because had you read it you would have seen those two statements discussed there.--CltFn 12:38, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It would seem CltFn was only linking to the portal for the interview, rather than the interview itself. I thought the same thing you did. Someone set it straight and I adjusted the other references to the portal to now link to the interview.--Yossarian  02:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Allusive title?

message: Someone deleted sourced info and I'm not sure why. I added a "Criticism" section in which I added sourced info. Someone took out the citation from the Chronicle of Higher Ed. I'm not sure why. I put it back in. If it's deleted again, I'll put it back in again. It seems rather dishonest to delete references.--Modern Muslimah, 15 October 2006
Please do not delete sourced infos. If you would like to add something, source it. If you hate Islam or Iran etc, here is not a place to show it. CltFn's edits on Azar Nafisi and Reading Lolita in Tehran have been reverted repeatedly by several users. If you want to add sourced info, go right ahead. But do not delete other's sourced edits, even if it is not according to your personal political interests. --Mitso Bel00:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nafisi's account flashes back to the early'  days of the revolution (1978-1981), when she first started teaching at the University of Tehran amid the swirl of protests and demonstrations. In those frenetic days, the students took control of the university, expelled faculty members and purged the curriculum. These were not at 1995-1997 when Nafisi hold her private class. --Mitso Bel13:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  About the universities where she taught: Azar Nafisi taught in three Universities: Tehran University, Free University and Allameh Tabatabei University. But Her last post was at Allameh Tabatabaei university. She was expelled from Tehran University (not Allameh Tabatabaei Univ) due to refusing islamic dress code.--Mitso Bel15:08, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  About the word diverse I think we have to put it between quotation marks. There were only one person (Mahshid) in her class who used to wear veil before revolution. And this woman was jailed for five years because of her "affiliation with a dissident religious organization” (which is today known by US and Europeans as a secular terrorist group). So the only person who used to be religious, had a serious political problem with the regime. So there were no normal religious member in her class. How many percent of Iranian women experienced jail after revolution ? If you take a sample of Iranian women at those time, would you come to such a sample ? I strongly believe that the selection of those 7 students was biased. --Mitso Bel17:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see Ruhollah Khomeini. The user is question has been vandalizing that article consistently, quoting non-existent sources. Please make sure that he does not ruin these articles. SouthernComfort 06:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do not delete! 

message: on my talk page, where other interested parties may not see it: as I have a long list of articles that I am working on and researching I do not spend too much of my time arguing with people who delete information which is sourced , or who have not taken the time to even read the book of the page they are editing. All the info I added is sourced and can be found in the reference if they would bother to read them. 
Questions are raised, both above and in revisions of the article that CltFn is quick to revert, about the veracity of the content of the book. The references that CltFn has given, when relevant at all (see my comment that's now at the foot of the section above titled "Allusive title?"), have been to summaries of the book that show no sign of independence or research.
Let's look at something that should be straightforward. Which universities was she teaching in, when did she leave them, and why? Her publisher's web page (which Mitso Bel links to above), says that "in 1980, Nafisi was expelled from the University of Tehran for refusing to wear the veil" and that "after a long hiatus from teaching, she took a full-time job at Allameh Tabatabai University where she resumed the teaching of fiction." Also, "Azar Nafisi begins with a description of a dream she fulfilled in her final years of life in the Islamic Republic of Iran: to hold a private literature workshop with a select group of dedicated students" (my emphasis). So, if Random House has got it right, yes, it's true that (in CltFn's preferred words) "The book narrates the personal and intellectual events of a private literature class she started in Tehran after she left her last teaching post at the University of Tehran after refusing to wear the Islamic veil" IFF (i) "last" applies to a teaching post at that university and (ii) it's more important here to know where she was teaching many years before than where she was teaching at more or less the same time.
If CltFn is too busy to discuss, I suggest that he or she should step back from this article, or at least refrain from mindless reversion. -- Hoary 09:06, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dear Hoary, the statement in the current version of the article reads: The book narrates the personal and intellectual events of a <<private literature class>> she started in Tehran after she left her last teaching post at the University of Allameh Tabatabaei.  I am not a native speaker of English language. The private class started at 1995 and ended at 1997. Nafisi left Allameh Tabatabaei Univ at 1995. So I think the statement is correct. What is your opinion ? --Miso Bel12:09, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I suppose it would depend on the times in the year; I mean, if she finished at the university in June and started the private class in October (just an imaginary example!), it would be true; but if those months were the other way around (just another imaginary example!), it would not be. -- Hoary 14:01, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here is the first paragraph of the book:In the fall of 1995, after resigning from my last academic post, I decided to indulge myself and fufil a dream. I chose seven of my best and most committed students and invited them to come to my home every Thursday morning to discuss literature.  The private class did not have overlap with her position in the University. Is that convincing ? --Mitso Bel14:24, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[User:CltFn|CltFn]] writes

message: WP:Citing sources explains the importance of specifying sources. Of course it's true that the huge majority of WP articles specify sources in a most perfunctory way, if at all, but (i) bad practice elsewhere is not an excuse for bad practice, and (ii) sources for claims in this article have already been demanded. Anyone who's ever written about any newsworthy subject will know that -- regardless of the best way to cite when writing about, say, physics or linguistics -- footnotes are much handier than is the author/date system. Wikipedia:Footnotes explains how to create proper footnotes. Creating them is simple, so please do it. Thank you. -- Hoary 09:26, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: How to source what you claim

message: I don't understand why this was added.  I can understand some link, via Nafisi's criticisms of the Ayatollah, but it seems tangential at best and disconnected from the article.  Perhaps explaining the significance would be sufficient, but simply putting the link is confusing and misleading. Michaelbusch 04:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm aware that the Tahrir-ol-vasyleh article is presently flagged "few articles link to this one", but that is not a reason to add the link here. Michaelbusch 04:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Perhaps, but that is not described in the Tahrir-ol-vasyleh article at the moment.  This would be an easier discussion to have after that article has been improved. Michaelbusch 05:35, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Link to [[Tahrir-ol-vasyleh]]

message: Should it be mentioned that the cover pic has been cropped and is from an original press picture in Iran? In the original the girls are reading an Iranian newspaper and a picture of Khatami is in the background. See  and . Nokhodi 01:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Very important issue. The photo was taken 3 years after Nafisi left Iran while the story of the book is mainly about 1980s. Also the photo shows how much Iranian girls were interested in ongoing debates over the parliamentary election and also a relative freedom of press at that time. Additionally it showed that girls with more conservative dress were also there (something censored in the cover). This is in full contrast to the message of the book.Sangak 14:25, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure why the next to last sentence is relevant to this article.  I've revised Sangak's edits to be in accordance with WP:NPOV. Michaelbusch 18:19, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think what Sangak said is valid, especially the part about the image being used without permission of the photographer and altering it. Of course it should be neutrall, but the fact is the publishers and Nafisi used the image without permission.Nokhodi 21:36, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: If either of you can provide a reference documenting that the image was used without permission or in violation of copyright, this information is suitable for inclusion.  Until such a reference is available, it is not.  I must also disagree with Sangak's statement that 'this is in full contrast to the message of the book', but if we started to debate that, both of us would be guilty of WP:OR.  If it is that important (and I don't think it is), someone can contact Nafisi or her publisher. Michaelbusch 22:01, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am busy with other projects. Good luck with writing the article. Sangak 12:53, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cover of book

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:ReadingLolitainTehran.jpg

message: I see a criticism section, showing people highly critical of the book, but there is no praise for the book anywhere in the artcle as well, nor is there any rebuttal criticism. Is there no praise for this book anywhere in the world? 75.189.247.92 (talk) 02:59, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added extensive support for the book, including responses to Dabashi.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 22:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

text: I've removed the book cover section which has swelled to be way too big for a single person's comments, and it read like a rant. .froth. (talk) 04:20, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism 

message: I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
::This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
::#There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
::#It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
::#In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 03:45, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  removing POV tag with no active discussion per [[Template:POV]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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