Talk:Landkreuzer P. 1000 Ratte

message: In his book, "My Tank is Fight", Zack Parsons has devoted an entire chapter on this über-tank. Hugo Dufort 06:22, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article on the P-1000 has already been deleted twice, at least. Repeated AFDs have been unable to find scholarly data on its existence. I trust this Mr Parsons has some actual data to back up the existence of the "Ratte" project. --Agamemnon2 20:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  My Tank is Fight Discussion 

message: The book includes a concept drawing for what it'd look like: —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Havermayer (talk • contribs) 05:56, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article on the P-1000 has already been deleted twice, at least. Repeated AFDs have been unable to find scholarly data on its existence. I trust this Mr Parsons has some actual data to back up the existence of the "Ratte" project. --Agamemnon2 20:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  My tank is fight image 

message: I looked through most of my books, and was able to come up with two books which reference period documents: Special-Panzerfahrzeuge des deutschen Heeres by Walther Spielberger and Waffen und Geheimwaffen des deutschen Heeres 1933-1945 (vol. 2) by Fritz Hahn. The information they give is limited (and in German), but it's the best I can find. I recently wrote an article on the P 1000 based on these books, but I'm unsure whether I'd be allowed to link to this article and use it myself as an English source under the WP:SOAP and WP:COI rules. Christian Ankerstjerne (talk) 14:17, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, this tank or a similar one did make production.  I saw it on a youtube video i cant recall with a group of factory women posing in front of it.  It was a giant tank with double cannons and the people in the black and white photo were the size of its wheels.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.42.105 (talk) 16:54, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It never made production. Not surprisinglyChristian Ankerstjerne (talk) 22:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definitely not hoax 

message: I find it incredible that the article doesn't even mention the possibility that the P1000 is a hoax.  I will make an appropriate ammendment to the introduction. Getztashida (talk) 15:11, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edits say that some historians believe it is a hoax. Please provide the references. (Hohum @) 16:16, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure that will be possible.  There has been no scholarly research into the P1000 precisely because it is widely held to be a hoax.  It is not possible to prove a negative - however, failing to acknowledge that P1000 has been ignored by historians because it is perceived as a hoax gives the article the appearance of incontrovertiable fact when it is anything but.  Getztashida (talk) 16:31, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You said that many historians consider it a hoax. Presumably you read that somewhere. (Hohum @) 16:43, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Forums like Tanknet mostly - which are inadmissable as a reference if I am not mistaken.  It's been a while since anyone brought up the P1000 on tanknet, but if you do no one takes them seriously and you'll find proper, published experts like Tony Williams and Rob Griffin hanging around Tanknet...  Getztashida (talk) 16:49, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct, forums are not reliable sources. (Hohum @) 23:41, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You're not being terribly helpful here Hohum.  I can prove that to you personally that the P1000 is a laughing stock in the treadhead community if you want - I'll just make a post about it on a forum, allow myself to get horribly flamed and then link the results - but that isn't much use in the long term.  I assure you that no one who's seriously studied German WWII tank development thinks it was a genuine project, and nothing resembling it appears in the German archives at all (as far as I know, at least.  I haven't studied them for evidence of monster tank projects myself, but I have assured as such in the past).  Because there are no primary sources and no one takes the P1000 seriously, there is no scholarship on the subject - so I can't provide references to the effect that no one takes it seriously, and we end up with an entry in an encyclopedia for a design that almost certainly never existed that doesn't even acknowledge the possibility that it's all a pile of made up hokum.  Getztashida (talk) 00:27, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Bear in mind that they actually *built* prototype Maus, and that has universal ridicule. (Hohum @) 18:30, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Consider my comment above from 2009-07-28 ([]). Walther Spielberger mentions the P 1000, and includes references to war-time German documents. Spielberger, now deceased, was certainly a reputable authority on German armour. Christian Ankerstjerne (talk) 12:53, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hoax issue again 

message: I have removed the following source. Adolf: Webster's Quotations, Facts and Phrases By Inc Icon Group International . It contains information taken from Wikipedia (see page ii) and the Ratte section is marked as such, with [WP]. google book view (Hohum @) 23:52, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed [[WP:CIRCULAR]] source. 

message: Despite persistent rumors to the contrary, there is no evidence that a turret was ever constructed. I removed a reference to an article that didn't cite any sources. The article's illustration furthermore showed a single-barrel turret in Norway, as opposed to the proposed dual-barrel turret of the Ratte. Likewise, I removed all references to a turret being build at all, in The Netherlands, Norway or elsewhere. The text was speculative, and looked liked it had been appended each time someone new wanted to write about his version of the myth. This gave the text a very staccato appearence. The burden of evidence rest with those who claims a turret was made, and such evidence should be verifiable. Specific claims should be removed on sight, unless backed up by verifiable sources. It might, however, be reasonable to add a short text, along the lines of 'There are several accounts of a Ratte turret being build. Such accounts are usually either too vague to be verified, or refer to actual turrets that are known to come from scrapped Kriegsmarine battleships.' Christian Ankerstjerne (talk) 22:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: And how do we know the one of the triples wasn't earmarked to be the prototype P1000 turret, exactly? Since the guns from the Scharnhorst and Gniesenau were supposed to have been replaced around the time the P1000 project would have started, what stops the Oerlander turret being *both* the P1000 turret and a Gniesenau turret? Boris Dime 06:29, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turret Discussion 

message: Actually, two Gneisenau turrets were installed in naval forts in Norway. B turret was installed in Fjell Fort in Sotra near Bergen, while C turret is in Austrått Fort in Ørlandet which I visited two weeks ago (the A turret was dismantled and its guns placed in Hoek van Holland near Rotterdam). These are original triple 28cm turrets that were removed from the Gneisenau in spring 1942 after it was partially wrecked by bombers in Kiel on 26th and 27th February. While there was plans to upgrade the class to dual 380 mm turrets, this never materialized. Clearly then the statement "its primary weapons would have been two 280 mm guns mounted in the same type of gun turret used in Gneisenau class warships" is in error.
Now, if someone possibly build a dual turret using the same guns as in Gneisenau I don't know. However, if someone decided to ship this to Norway we would surely have heard of it. The installation of B turret needed the slave labour of 1600 eastern European prisoners of war, while C turret required 3-400 Serb POWs, ferries from the Danish Railroads, a specially constructed harbour and over a year of frantic activity which affected the local population in several ways (like getting their windows blown in during test firings). Had a third turret been installed somewhere we would have found it by now. Geira
:And how do we know the one of the triples wasn't earmarked to be the prototype P1000 turret, exactly? Since the guns from the Scharnhorst and Gniesenau were supposed to have been replaced around the time the P1000 project would have started, what stops the Oerlander turret being *both* the P1000 turret and a Gniesenau turret? Boris Dime 06:29, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turret story debunked 

message: I sorted the comments a bit.Christian Ankerstjerne (talk) 22:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spring Cleaning 

message: The lede states that the Maus is the second largest tank ever built. However, I could not find mention of any heavier tank...?!? -- DevSolar (talk) 13:13, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: 'Large' can mean several things. The Tsar tanks was taller, and the K-Wagen was longer, for example. I replaced it with 'heaviest'. Christian Ankerstjerne (talk) 21:34, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maus "second largest tank ever built"? 

message: G'day, I have been learning a lot of this tank and frankly quite been interested in it. I've given sources based on other statements given on several other language wiki's, but this has also given some more sources that may provide usefulness. Infact I am surprised that this much coverage can be given for a tank that wasn't even built and super sacred.
I did snatch this up and it's also from one of the sources provided. This makes things very easy to source now. But, can anyone access the sources given in the Russian version of this page? I would like to see what content can be found there. Burklemore1 (talk) 12:33, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Edit: No need for anymore sources and such. Content in that site is found in a 2006 publication too. Burklemore1 (talk) 00:01, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Opinion needed

message: I can't find any reference to the V12Z32/44 being used in u-boats, but it does seem to have been intended to be used in the German destroyer Z51.German Destroyers of World War II: Warships of the Kriegsmarine By Gerhard Koop, Klaus-Peter Schmolke  However, it seems they were prototypes that never made it out of testing. (Hohum @) 15:45, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  V12Z32/44 engine usage 

message: I just read the tank encyclopedia article in the P1000 projekt (wich is better sourced than this article) and it is all falling apart. It seems the current images and description of the p1000 are fake created by internet users, as the original drawings don't look even close to this. Someone please look into this, and ask tank encyclopedia for help. It seems the p1000 idea isn't a hoax, but it is wrongly documented, described and imaged.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Juanal expert (talk • contribs) 09:40, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I think so as well. But we still need more sources to prove so and replace the images. 49.188.23.43 (talk) 04:30, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fake tank