Talk:Kra–Dai languages

message: In an edit to the article, bearing the edit-comment 
: M 11:51, 2002 Feb 25 . . Conversion script (Automated conversion) 
a Wikipedian said(re Tai languages) "At least, I think they should be kept separate until something more definite appears. "
--Jerzy 08:10, 2003 Oct 16 (UTC)
I've conflated the more concrete bits of the previous two versions. Markalexander100 09:06, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Since when has this family of languages been re-classified as separate from Sino-Tibetan? 86.164.58.47 (talk) 03:38, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Since about 1940. kwami (talk) 15:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Western scholars uniformly reject genetic relatedness between Sino-Tibetan and Tai-Kadai.  The similarities are accounted for by borrowing and areal features.  There are much more compelling correspondences between Tai-Kadai and Austronesian and Western scholars tend to lean in that direction for a genetic link rather than to Sino-Tibetan.  Arrogant?  No, just good historical linguistics and not being carried away by surface similarities.  (Taivo (talk) 05:40, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

text: It is the ST languages which in general are not tonal. The tonal families are TK and Miao-Yao. Various languages in ST and AA have independently become tonal. (Vietnamese, for example.) Tone is easy to acquire: see tonogenesis. — kwami (talk) 03:00, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: More than 90% of Sino-Tibetan languages are tonal (including far-flung northeast Indian languages) which meant it was originally tonal. In the same way, more than 90% of Austroasiatic languages are NOT tonal which meant it was originally not tonal. The Vietnamese language is a merger between Annamese Chinese and Muong language (Google Origin of Vietnamese language) due to Vietnam being part of China for more than 1000 years. So each case must be researched one by one and not make sweeping statements.Cyberxwiki (talk) 06:04, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

text: Tone is often an areal feature. A strong example of this would be the Tsat language (also called Hainan Cham or Utsat). Once a non-tonal language like nearly all of its Malayo-Polynesian relatives, Hainan Cham has become tonal and monosyllabic just like its neighbors, which are the Hlai language, Chinese language, and Kim Mun. Hope this helps. — Stevey7788 (talk) 00:13, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: One or two examples doesn't prove anything. That's just like saying that just because one sibling married outside your original race, imply that all siblings married outside the original race which is illogical. Cyberxwiki (talk) 17:41, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

text: We really need 2ary-source evaluation of the claims, not just the claims themselves, however well argued we believe them to be.  — kwami (talk) 07:04, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Classification

message: This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 14:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: Thought I'd analyze the results of the search for "Kadai" without "Tai-Kadai".  I'll start with the top and work my way down the references.
:1) Greenberg, Language, culture, and communication:  talks about the "Thai and Kadai languages", then later uses the term, "Thai-Kadai".  "Thai-Kadai" is the name of the family here and "Kadai" is the name of the non-Thai languages of that family
:2) Dalby, Dictionary of Languages:  At first mentions the "Kadai languages (including Tai languages)", but then talks about the Tai languages and Kadai languages as separate, but related.  For example, he lists Dong as being "the most important language of the Kam-Sui group of Kadai languages.  The comparative linguist Fang Kuei Li discovered this language group...and demonstrated its distant relationship to the Tai languages."
:3) Pan-Asiatic linguistics:  Lists the title of a paper by Jerold Edmondson, "Some Kadai Languages of Northern Guangxi China".  It's not possible to tell what is meant by "Kadai" in this title, but in other places in the 90s Edmondson uses "Kadai" for the family as a whole.
:4) Moseley, Encyclopedia of the world's endangered languages:  "Kadai" is used as a subgroup label under "Tai-Kadai" along with "Kam-Sui" and "Tai".  (Even though the search was supposed to exclude volumes that also had "Tai-Kadai", this volume is listed in the search.)
:5) Greenberg & Croft, Genetic linguistics: essays on theory and method:  This apparently includes a reprint of the essay in 1) above, where "Thai" and "Kadai languages" are listed separately and then combined in a family name of "Thai-Kadai".
:6) An article from volume 35 of Language doesn't even include the word "Kadai" in the visible quote, so it's impossible to determine anything.
:7) Edmondson & Solnit, Comparative Kadai: linguistic studies beyond Tai:  This volume clearly uses "Kadai" for the family.
:8) Peiros, Comparative linguistics in Southeast Asia:  The visible quotes are so truncated that it's impossible to tell to what extent the author uses "Kadai".  The only languages mentioned in the quote are Gelao and Li, which are both always included in the non-Tai languages.
:9) Howard & Howard, Textiles of the Daic peoples of Vietnam:  This isn't a linguistics text, but in the linguistics comments they mention the Southwestern Tai and Central Tai sub-families in one place and the Bu-Rong sub-family of Kadai languages in another place.  It implies "Kadai" as a family name, but it's not certain from the limited quotes.
:10) Edmondson & Solnit, Comprative Kadai: the Tai branch:  Clearly uses "Kadai" as a family label.  This is basically "Volume 2" of 7) above.
Thus in the first ten results for a search of Google Books, only two of these works (7, 10) actually clearly use "Kadai" as the name of the family.  The other are either unclear (3, 6, 8, 9) or definitely consider "Kadai" to be in a larger family with "T(h)ai" (1, 2, 4, 5).  Add this evidence to the other encyclopedic and handbook sources cited above and you get a very, very clear picture that general and widespread scholarly usage is to call this family "Tai-Kadai" (whether or not you want to label one of the subgroups as "Kadai") and that calling it "Kadai" is only a minority usage.  Indeed, Edmondson, who is one of the authors of the only clear uses of "Kadai" above, is a co-editor of the new handbook, The Tai-Kadai Languages, published just last year by Routledge.  How much more evidence needs to be gathered?  (Taivo (talk) 14:44, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Analysis of Google Search

message: This is a little hard to believe. Is there any reference to this?--Tricia Takanawa (talk) 20:46, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, check Ethnologue. I've also added Guizhou, since you'll find Kra, Kam-Sui, and Tai languages all in that province. — Stevey7788 (talk) 05:14, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tai-Kadai diversity in [[Hainan]] 

message: I've added two more trees, one from Edmondson & Solnit, and the other one from Chamberlain. The original one was evidently from Ostapirat. — Stevey7788 (talk) 05:11, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trees 

message: A See also section does not require proven relationship between the two, merely relevance and anticipation of reader interest. It is not part of the article content, and adding it to that section in no way suggests that the two groups have been proven to be linguistically related. 
A section of this article already discusses the possible common origins of the Tai-Kadai and Austronesian language families, it is  expected that the reader would be interested in seeing other links to associated articles. In fact, the controversial aspect of the specifics of the relationship between the two is reason enough to link the reader to the articles. The Austro-Tai Hypothesis goes beyond mere linguistics, it is part of the debate on the different models of human migration in Eastern and Southeastern Asia. And the two groups are frequently discussed together in this context. Try googling them.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 23:07, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind, I see we actually have an article on the Tai peoples, with Austronesians already linked there and discussed in the migration context. I've linked Tai peoples in the Austronesian peoples' See also section instead.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 23:12, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also 

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thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page 

message: As IP 86.56.207.16 mistyped IPA characters for proto-Tai , leading to a misperception that proto-Japonic and proto-Tai are pretty close in sound correspondences, I've fixed IP 86.56.207.16's typos. From the lexical comparison table, there doesn't seem to be a convincing connection between proto-Japonic and proto-Tai. Bookworm8899 (talk) 12:27, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relationship between Proto-Japonic and Proto-Tai ? 

message: How many Wikipedia in this languages?--Kaiyr (talk) 11:33, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a Wikipedia in the Tai language.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:7C87:4F00:5425:5B23:4F06:4192 (talk) 12:52, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Four: Thai, Lao, Shan, and Zhuang. Lingnanhua (talk) 11:07, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia