Talk:2007 Australian federal election/Archive 3

message: Should we really have links to both the general ABC election site and Antony Green's guide? The guide is clearly linked from the general site. JPD (talk) 13:12, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure whether the direct Antony Green one was added before or after I put in the general ABC one, but there isn't any need for two. I'd suggest keep mine since it's a bit more general, but I'm not fussed either way - probably best to just keep the first. timgraham 13:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links 

message: Does anyone know when the GG will issue the writs?  I have seen mention (on the ABC election news site) that it'll be the 18th, but that was someone commenting, and they provided no confirmation. —Sam Wilson (Australia) 03:25, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just added a link to the AEC's timetable to the 'Key Dates' section.  This timetable seems to be wrong, which is odd.  Can anyone shed any light on what's going on?  I've emailed the AEC.  —Sam Wilson (Australia) 09:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you know it to be wrong why did you add it to the article? WikiTownsvillian 09:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it came from a reliable source, I guess... also if it is wrong, it'll be fixed within a day and hence cease to be wrong :) Orderinchaos 11:17, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

text: There was a mix up apparently (see link)  Rafy 11:27, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  When will the writs be issued? 

message: Just out of curiousity, why was the old election table (the one which details the swing required, seats held, seats needed, leader rating etc) removed? There have naturally been a lot of edits today, so I am not sure who did it, but I thought that table was incredibly useful - it was right at the top of the page and summed everything up in a nutshell.
I can understand it being removed when the election is over (just), but I would support re-instating it for the time being. The new version is completly useless in terms of providing relevent info (ie it currently simply says how long JH has been in parliament, and what seat he is in.) If nobody objects, I would like to add it back in. Thoughts? GreenGopher 09:27, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now that the election has been called, for consistency's sake, I would support keeping it there - that is unless of course nobody else agrees. Timeshift 09:33, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I, too, support the old table. The new pics take up too much space and are almost completely useless. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the old table, (though with smaller numbers) but there would be an issue with the leadership and two party preferred polling numbers, since the number differs depending on what poll you use. Is it an average? That could work. Iorek 10:44, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would need to change constantly and the problem is one of original research as we'd need to decide which one to use or whose standard to use (Mumble's as published in Crikey would probably be the safest as it aggregates all of them, but that's original research on my part right there). I disliked the "marginal seat" section in it as it ignores context - a seat with a 2% margin may hold for structural reasons while a seat with a 10% margin which had an 8% swing last election may revert. This sort of analysis is best done on sites which Wikipedia can link to, and then we can summarise their research in the text. Orderinchaos 11:16, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It could be an idea to use this poll... Timeshift 12:08, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that's probably the best bet, while mumble may be more accurate it would be difficult to claim it had authority. I've put the old box back in for now, although I agree the font could be a bit smaller. GreenGopher 12:23, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with OIC about the marginals; it really depends on the criteria used to determine whether it's marginal. Can we remove it from the infobox? Recurring dreams 12:32, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

text:  I must admit my biggest objection to it is its sheer size! Even on my 19" monitor in a high resolution it's 1/3 of a screen wide and over a screen long. Orderinchaos 13:29, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Have reduced the font size and the marginals row, but it reduced the size by only a tiny fraction. Orderinchaos 13:34, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old table? 

message: Did anyone else happen to watch sky news as the election was being called, especially before the event? Sky news really need to do their research better - they kept repeating that Rudd would be only the second Queensland ALP PM (Forde aside as he was caretaker only) since Andrew Fisher in... get this... 1904. 1904?! And this kept repeating. And that was just one example... Timeshift 12:30, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The chief political correspondent from Sky will be hosting next week's debate! Recurring dreams 12:33, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I noticed that... I don't care much for David Speers though. Timeshift 12:47, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Wasn't someone listing 17 as the number of seats required on this page at some point? Don't know why. I guess they've forgotten about 1996, too. Oh well... they did make Howard calling the election one of the top news stories on the BBC radio news on Sunday morning. JPD (talk) 16:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah yes, I was too ****ed up at the time to remember but now it's come back to me - Sky news, as well as the Fisher 1904 stuffup, said that 17 seats was required because Parramatta was now notionally Labor... perhaps the researcher is missing his right eye and looked at Australian federal election, 2007#Marginal seats? :P In response to the second part, yes now that it's been called, it will attract international media attention... I noted 1000 news.google articles related to the calling of the election! One thing I note about international media is that they seem to like reasoning the Liberal polling woes to international things like iraq, kyoto and others, rather than domestic issues. Only very recently have I begin seeing WorkChoices and other domestic issues mentioned, and even then it takes sources like BBC, and even then they still use things like Iraq. Timeshift 16:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did think of Parramatta, but didn't think reporters would be silly enough to consider Parramatta and not Macquarie. I guess that was foolish of me! JPD (talk) 18:02, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Having been out there doorknocking twice in the last three weeks in a middle-class marginal electorate, I can assure you Iraq and Kyoto are more of issues than I think anyone would seriously believe they are. They also do come up as issues in private polling. However they rank below WorkChoices and other things such as house and grocery prices. Orderinchaos 23:06, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Same in WA - we have Hasluck and Stirling up for grabs on one side, Swan and Cowan on the other. However, only those that actually understand the politics know how seriously unsafe Canning is despite its seemingly high margin. It's to my mind more marginal than Hasluck or Stirling (it was on 0.38% in 2001), because it had a massive, massive swing in the 2004 election based primarily in its working class core of Gosnells/Kelmscott/Armadale. That was largely candidate-related issues in the 2004 campaign (the former member, who probably would have had a chance, dying on Christmas Eve, a new brash candidate getting endorsed then disendorsed then a recycled Burke-era minister being revived to contest the seat). This seat is probably the most vulnerable in WA to WorkChoices apart from Perth which is already strong Labor, so yeah. Orderinchaos 23:10, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sky news

message: (cur) (last)  18:30, October 15, 2007 Aflumpire (Talk | contribs) m (moved Talk:Australian Federal Election, 2007 to Talk:2007 Australian Federal Election: moving 2007 to the front for easier reading) (undo)
(cur) (last)  18:29, October 15, 2007 Aflumpire (Talk | contribs) m (moved Talk:Australian federal election, 2007 to Talk:Australian Federal Election, 2007: capitalizing federal and election to make it look more professional) (undo)
I completely disagree. It should be Australian federal election, 2007, not 2007 Australian Federal Election or Australian Federal Election, 2007. Timeshift 09:06, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed with Timeshift9. Also in ensuring consistency, such a change would affect the format of ALL election articles. Consensus needs to be first established at WP:AUP Rafy 09:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed with Rafy and Timeshift - this change should never have been made. It's inconsistent with literally hundreds of other articles. Orderinchaos 09:44, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article name change

message: I take issue with the following:
On 7 June in a speech promoting the government's handling of the economy, Treasurer Peter Costello recalled the notorious learner driver slogan of the 2004 election: "This [the economy] is like a highly engineered racing car and I tell you what, I wouldn't be putting an L-plate driver in the cockpit at the moment".[19] August 2007 saw a 0.25% interest rate rise to 6.5%, the fifth rise since the last election.
This is loosely disguised POV. First of all, the use of the word 'notorious'. Secondly, the point about interest rates rising under the coalition immediately following Costello's comment is pejorative. Yes, it may be fact. But there are a whole heap of facts about Labor not included here. They don't need listing, but one I think that should be on here, considering we are talking about the reasons people won't vote Liberal, some mention of the fact why they won't vote Labor. It's suggested in the first sentence of 'Issues' but not articulated. Here's a fact that belongs there if we are to have the one above. 70% of the Labor front bench is comprised of former Union officials. A sound reason for a lack of voter confidence, no doubt.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.160.98.162 (talk) 04:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You do realise Labor was founded by the labour movement don't you? It's like this whole 70% figure is some big surprise or secret or scandal - HELLO, they're a party created by trade unions!!! Timeshift 04:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh dear, someone's been driving through Sutherland Street in West Perth, it seems. The propaganda's all the same no matter where you read it, though. Orderinchaos 09:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

text: A large number of Australians have no confidence in either unions or the government, so I'd say it's about even. In reality, despite their former occupation (or that of most former Liberal MPs as lawyers, and I'm not going to recycle any lawyer jokes to demonstrate the high esteem in which the community holds them), neither party speaks to its base any more, or its policies, or much of anything really - the so-called "mass parties" have become large professional organisations with their own inertia. That's probably why branches of both in most places are struggling to stay afloat - I remember being asked to help out a sub-branch of a party with their doorknocking one time because the average age of the branch was 72 years old and they were too frail to go outside on a 36° day (I declined, for the record). It should be noted they won the by-election in question. Orderinchaos 13:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ISSUES

message: What do people think of the worthyness of adding this graph? It certainly is interesting... Timeshift 06:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is very interesting, but I wonder whether it is the sort of analysis that would need to be considered in terms of the original research policy. JPD (talk) 11:12, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Third graph?

message: There is no bias, Nick Xenophon is 'virtually certain of a seat in Canberra' according to Stateline's ABC Ian Henschke,, and according to Antony Green "he will win the seat". 20.5 percent, 5.5 percent short of the Libs, and outpolling them in some booths last year, being judged soon by those same voters statewide? If Family First in Vic can do it on 2 percent, there is no bias including No Pokies with Greens FFP and Dems. EDIT - added the crucial bits to No Pokies. I didn't want to add overlapping information to both articles (the other being Xenophon's). Timeshift 10:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps the solution is (a) not list the parties which might hold Balance of Power, simply say "minor parties" might; and (b) move Xenophon from "High-Profile Candidates" to "Electoral prospects: Senate", unlike the others he's actually got a chance of being elected. (Possibly Hanson should also). Peter Ballard 11:48, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hanson stood in 2004 and got just over 4%, so I strongly doubt it. Orderinchaos 13:04, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to this morning's paper, Xenophon will not run under the "No Pokies" banner. So I suggest the article refer to "Independent Nick Xenophon" instead of "No Pokies". Peter Ballard 23:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Found an article and making changes now. Timeshift 00:05, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: No Pokies

message: Would images taken from the ABC or Nine Network be welcome? I don't have one of the feed dropping out although I'm sure a video of some sort will appear in due course. I suppose it all comes down to whether real photos are realeased, otherwise it would be a fair use violation of some sort wouldn't it? timgraham 12:23, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If the image specifically demonstrates something which cannot be demonstrated by any free media, and the point is actually relevant and pertinent to the article Australian federal election, 2007 and a fair use rationale can be drafted accordingly, then yes. I'd think carefully about this though as the debate (especially with five weeks left to go) is a fairly minor point in the campaign - I don't think terribly many non-interested people (i.e. the majority of voters) would have been sitting there watching all 90 minutes of it. My parents, who are both marginally swinging voters, drifted in and out. Orderinchaos 13:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leader's debate 

message: I've been observing Australian politics for a long time, but ever since we first started having leaders' debates during election campaigns, one thing I've never understood is this odd notion of who the "winner" is.  What on earth does it mean?  Everybody I've ever asked has given me a different answer; many people can't even articulate why they think that so-and-so won, they just think he did.  Does it mean that if, say, 61% of the people surveyed said that Farfel was the winner over Bloggs, those 61% have now decided to vote for Farfel's party no matter what else happens during the rest of the campaign?  Does it mean they were impressed by Farfel's arguments, but still reserve their right to choose who they will ultimately vote for in 5 weeks' time?  Does it mean they were impressed by how in command Farfel seemed to be compared with Bloggs, but this does not necessarily mean they were convinced to vote for Farfel's party?  How representative is the sample anyway, and does anyone out there in voter land actually care what some sample decides about who the "winner" is and who the "loser" is.  Surely ordinary voters make up their own minds, and I really can't imagine anyone being influenced in their vote by media reports saying that this person or that person won a debate.  So Farfel "won" the debate - but does this really have any more moment, or even as much, as the regular polls of voting intentions?
I ask these questions not to have a rant, but to wonder what we, Wikipedia, mean when we report these findings of "winners" and "losers".  Are we here to just trot out uncritically whatever gets reported in the media, or are we here to report things that are actually meaningful?  If we do report that Farfel "won" the debate by X%, surely we need to define what constitutes a "winner" in these circumstances.  I'd welcome any enlightenment on this matter.  (Oh, and I look forward to the official campaign "launches", weeks into the official campaign.  What a laugh.  Whatever was wrong with "policy speech"?).  --  JackofOz 12:54, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't need opinion and commentary thanks. Sticking to edits on the subject at hand will do quite nicely. Timeshift 12:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, there was some opinion in there, Timeshift, but there were fair questions too.  Don't get me wrong - I have no issue with these debates in themselves.  They're an excellent way to have serious political questions addressed in greater depth than we usually get via the media.  But what's wrong with having the debate and leaving it at that?  Let people watch them and make up their own minds, without obsessing about who won or lost it.  I see that both sides are now claiming they won tonight's debate - if that's not an argument for the absurdity of the very notion of winners and losers, what is?  So, I get back to my core question - why is Wikipedia reporting the "winner" and "loser", and what do we mean when we report this?  --  JackofOz 13:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We report what the media say, and cite where they said it. In this case, it was channel 9. (And yes, I share your opinion re "policy launches" - we've become way too American.) Orderinchaos 13:27, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the edits. It should be clearer now. Timeshift 13:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  I guess I can live with that.  --  JackofOz 23:22, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Winner" of the debate

message: Those linking particularly long URLs as refs, please use the Cite news template or some other formatting (eg [url Title], author, date, paper. Retrieved date) - until yesterday the links in the refs section were going way off the screen. Orderinchaos 21:26, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refs 

message: *Crikey election 07: Are you ready?
*Crikey election 07: week 1
*Crikey election 07: week 2
*Crikey election 07: halfway mark
*Crikey election 07: week 4
Enjoy! Timeshift 06:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Crikey vids

message: Do you think it is worthy to make a mention of this: http://www.smh.com.au/news/federal-election-2007/trio-gang-up-to-beat-senate-majority/2007/10/27/1192941400143.html
The Greens, Labor and The Democrats have appeared together in a video advertisement organised by GetUp! promoting the importance of a "fair senate" acting as a house of review.
--Waynekruse 08:40, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A coalition implies they would govern together, which is not the case here - so be careful with the wording. It does deserve a mention under the Senate majority section, but will likely be a very minor part of the overall campaign. Orderinchaos 10:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pseudo progressive coalition 

message: I would suggest that the neutrality of the "Week 2" summary is tenuous in terms of POV. Cyril Washbrook 04:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to add that it's all cited, and the only controversial bits are contained in "". Timeshift 05:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This dispute isn't about accuracy of citation - it's about the neutrality of the section. The two issues are entirely different, as Wikipedia policy recognises. The entire section was cited from a single source and does not justify itself as representing a sufficiently objective overview of the week. I've made edits to include basic information about the interest rates dispute, removed some copy-pasted sections and rearranged the sources to present a clearer layout of content. I've left the POV tag there for the moment. Cyril Washbrook 05:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course it is not a sufficient overview of the week - there was nothing there and week 2 was already gone! I added that and expected others to add other various noteabilities of the week. Timeshift 05:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a vague liberal supporter, I would suggest that while a few words could be tweaked to make it a  bit more NPOV, the week undoubtably belonged to Labor. The debate fallout took over the news Monday, interest rates dominated the remainder of the week and Turnball was the story of the weekend, especially the sunday papers. I think a line about Joe Mcdonald is warrented, as that was an arguable hit for the libs (and gained national attention), but that's really about all. GreenGopher 05:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (Totally personal observation here in response to the above but) Where it mattered (WA in this case) I think the McDonald news is more likely to have been positive for Labor - most people here have an opinion on the guy, including the local Labor Party who first threatened him then stood by and let his workers get fined for holding up their railway project. If they dumped Reynolds too, you'd probably see the difference in the polls. Orderinchaos 08:47, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's either way. People who are likely to change their vote over unions most likely already vote Liberal. Even today the media kept saying people aren't being affected by it. Continuing to bag the unions, however, only reminds people about WorkChoices. Timeshift 08:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Week 2 

message: "Labor's primary vote was up three to 51 percent, with the Liberals down two to 34 percent. Rudd extended his lead by two percent to 50 percent, with Howard down by two percent to 37 percent."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.165.121.161 (talk) 09:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let's play a game - spot the inconsistencies... 

message: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/files/newspoll-1nov.pdf - from what I gather, they've combined their last two polls. Timeshift 21:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  1 Nov newspoll 

message: I really do wonder how relevant this is... what are admins opinions on the "viral video" section the anon IP added which I reverted? Timeshift 20:35, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed with you - it doesn't seem terribly encyclopaedic. External links has a few things to say also - they're definitely not contraband though, but without more reliable sources giving them airtime (I've only seen one of them on one news site in an opinion piece on a quick look around) it's a very marginal part of the campaign. Orderinchaos 20:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: However, do you agree with the addition of the link to the full debate with the worm? The same anon removed the link which i've re-added. He says it is copyright, however as wikipedia isn't hosting it, simply providing a link to it, I don't see how it is an issue. Timeshift 21:03, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The question would be whether it adds to the article, I'd say if it's easily searchable then no, but if it isn't then yes (haven't checked the source/hosting location). Keep in mind what EL has to say about persistency of links though. Orderinchaos 21:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the link directly underneath the leaders' debate heading. I'd say it wouldn't easily be found on the internet. And does it add to the article, in particular the leaders' debate section? Absolutely. Timeshift 21:22, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Viral videos"

message: Per this history, do people think it's better to have the template as this or this? I think it is better to have the PM included if they have served a second term, such as Deakin, Fisher, and Menzies. Eg, I think it just doesnt look right for the PM list to go from Reid to Fisher, or from Chifley to Holt. I strongly believe in the latter edit. Thoughts? Timeshift 03:48, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe they should be listed once on the template, by the earliest date of their election. The template is designed as a quick-reference link to each PM. The actual sequential list can be dealth with within the article for each PM. --Gene_poole 03:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But for the Liberal Party leader template, that doesn't apply? Timeshift 00:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prime Minister template 

message: Should this article be split into one on the election and another on the election campaign/s (or perhaps more)?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.169.193.41 (talk) 05:48, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope. A lot of the ephemeral stuff will get edited down as history is allowed to judge it anyway, so there's a natural process at work which will result in a relatively ideal sized article. Orderinchaos 10:29, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 'History', of course, being determined once the winner of the election is determined. But I digress. GreenGopher 12:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No need until at least after the election, length permitting. Timeshift 12:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

text: True enough, although what I was meaning is that on a campaign things happen which people think matter, then by even a few weeks later everyone has forgotten it and the minor sidenote one might have made three weeks earlier has now unexpectedly blown up into the big issue everyone remembers from that week. Orderinchaos 19:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need of article split 

message: The Liberal Party opposed the worm because the audience of 80 may not be a fair sample of the electorate and there could be bias in the selection. The outcome of the worm has been used by the media in the past to score up points for the Labor candidate. On November 4th 2007 the owner of the marketing firm McNair Ingenuity that chose the audience for the Nine Network's debate admitted that the audience could be biased. McNair executive Matt Balogh said "... we never offered to provide an audience of undecided voters" "Sure we asked them their political preferences. And most of them have political preferences," "But if they said they could change their minds, they were accepted." Wright, Lincoln. "New turn in worm saga", Herald Sun (News Corp, 4 November 2007. Retrieved on 2007-11-6.
Why did you remove this Timeshift9? You said "this isnt a campaign for or against the worm", but if you mention the debate, the worm, and the cut-feed then you need to know why the Liberal Party opposed it. It also makes sense that there should be some quotes from the person in charge of organising the worm's studio audience.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.1.222.1 (talk) 10:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The actual reason given by JH was because it distracted the viewer's attention. There are articles pointing to the erratic behaviour of theworm, and anyone watching could see for themselves that it would zoom or dive according to who appeared on screen - before they said anything. --Pete 22:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Try watching the whole thing rather than going by media reports. It at times favoured both leaders and at times moved before things were said. There's nothing to stop any of the 80 people using the keypads from registering how they feel about a leader based upon their previous answers. Again, it is not for us to judge or criticise the worm. Timeshift 22:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Um. I did watch the whole thing. What made you assume I didn't? As you seem to accept, the audience reaction was based on prejudice, rather than what was actually being said. This was quite plain right from the start, when the worm twitched before a single word of substance was uttered. Using your reasoning, this was founded on what the leaders had said before the debate, hmmm? --Pete 01:35, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because if you watched it, you'd realise those jumps before even speaking only began to take hold later in the debate once it was clear who was winning it and who had the best oratory since the Dunstan/Whitlam years. And also because at times it did favour both leaders, despite favouring Rudd far more. Timeshift 02:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that's a *little* excessive :) Rudd was certainly good, and Howard performed poorly with a few exceptions, but Kim Beazley 1997-1998 era, Geoff Gallop, Nick Greiner and several of Hawke's ministers (Barry Jones comes to mind) were outstanding speakers. Also Keating, who can think something straight out then say it in a way you don't see too many people manage in modern politics (considering he is actually younger than some of those governing today, and not just Howard either). Orderinchaos 02:26, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it is all up to opinion, but yes I believe Rudd's oratory outscores all of those you mentioned (and where did MPs come in to this? I was referring to party leaders...). And i'm not referring to Keating's invective or quick wit, I don't consider that the style of oratory i'm referring to in Rudd/Dunstan/Whitlam. But this is beside the point. Timeshift 02:34, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

text: An IP reverting. How cute. Timeshift 02:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No need to be condescending. I reverted the original inclusion of this paragraph because it claims that the liberals didn't want the worm for bias, which isn't mentioned in the reference, and because it implies that the worm was biased, which is not neutral. Especially "The outcome of the worm has been used by the media in the past to score up points for the Labor candidate." sentence. Iorek 10:24, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But that goes against NPOV/neutrality/non-opinion/original research/whatever one wants to call it. The Liberals however did not want the debate right from the start and can be easily referenced if need be. Timeshift 20:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Why are we even arguing about this one? The paragraph was flawed from an NPOV view, Iorek removed it, problem solved. Orderinchaos 21:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New turn in worm saga 

message: I've noticed that there is now a pattern of making every single 'leader debate' it's own sub-heading. To be frank, I don't think this is deserved, given they aren't THAT notable, and it hasn't been done in previous campaign articles. So far no debate (with the exception of the PM debate and perhaps, due to Tony Abbott being a complete knob, the health debate) has gotten any real attention. I would support removing the subheadings, so that we simply have a heading for each week, but the general 'theme' of the week should be placed there (ie week 5: interest rates and economic management.) For some reason this was discontinued a few weeks ag, no idea why as it makes it much easier to navigate. But I will leave it here for discussion rather then simply changing it. GreenGopher 22:38, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Orderinchaos 01:50, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not up to us to declare what a certain week was about. Any week will have been about more than two issues, and for us to select what we believe to be the most prominent two issues is POV and/or OR. Timeshift 02:16, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was more agreeing on the leaders debates - I take your point re what should be in the headings, but I think the headings should still be per week, as each week has been a definite phase of the campaign and it also helps to break things up. Orderinchaos 02:24, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you think now? The article is coming together quite well. Timeshift 05:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headings for the debates? 

message: Seems the ever unreliable Roy Morgan has released a new poll... see here... it gives Labor the highest 2pp poll so far at 62 percent. Timeshift 05:29, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hah and it was conducted on the same weekend as the 53-47 Newspoll and the 54-46 Galaxy. Even their phone poll contradicts the F2F result. No wonder the media ignores them. 58.106.28.166 06:32, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding the 53-47 newspoll, see  and . Essentially, the year-average of Rudd, and the election campaign average differ by something like one percent, well within the three percent margin of error. All the commentators i've been reading (such as in those links) say that essentially the vote hasn't changed all year. Timeshift 06:51, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New Roy Morgan out

message: I notice incivility in the edit summaries of this page. One editor is accusing another editor of operating an "IP sock". Personal insults in edit summaries makes the edit summary redundant for other editors, and besides, it is not the forum for personal accusations. I ask that this stops. Thanks, Lester 02:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Uncivil Edit Summaries

message: The Government has released a new ad feature ex-Hawke Government MP Brian Courtice (reported here and here). Is that a new approach and/or noteworthy development? --Brendan [ contribs ] 07:03, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The tedious minituae of the Liberal and Labor campaigns is bogging this article down aleady. 25% of Australians are going to vote for a party or independent other than Lib and Lab and yet I doubt 25% of this article is devoted to the Greens, Democrats, Family First, Nationals, etc. 09:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Rubbish. The only parties likely to form government after this election is the Liberal/National Coalition or the Australian Labor Party - the Greens, Demos, Family First and other parties are not going to form government, so it's only right that most of this article focus, as has been newsworthy, on the campaigning by the two major parties. You need to also remember that most of this article will be superceded by the actual election results, which should profile some of the minor parties, particularly in the Senate where they are likely to achieve the balance of power (as it is almost impossible for Labor to attain it). On a second point, if you're so concerned about the article, why don't you sign up to Wikipedia and help us write the article? It would be helpful to know who you are rather than just an anonymous IP. JRG 12:17, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

text:  Actually this election has seen significant polarisation of the electorate between the two major parties. The minor parties are having the life sucked out of them.  58.106.28.166 12:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Um, if non-Lib and non-Lab candidates make up 80% of the total candidates in the election, and they traditionally get 20 - 25% of the vote, why shouldn't they get at least 20 - 25% of the article? A case could be made that in an article about the 2007 Australian election, candidates should have roughly equal space (ie non-lab, non-lib get 80% of the article). So what if Lib/Lab are likely to form government? That can be in the "Nth Australian Parliament article". This is an article about the election, and last time I checked there were a lot more candidates than just the Lib and Labor ones. I think the focus on the two majors is a bias, and has overwhelmed this article. Perhaps all the stuff about the campaigns of the majors should be moved to seperate articles. 59.101.191.37  —Preceding comment was added at 21:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New Ex-Labor Anti-Labor Election Ad

message: Any particular reason they both took place in Brisbane? I can see why Rudd would, but not Howard. 58.7.191.211 11:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Another case of me-too-ism? Timeshift 11:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because Queensland is supposedly going to be where the election is won. I'm flattered to be thought of as so important, really. Iorek 05:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Campaign launches 

message: http://blogs.theage.com.au/koutsoukis/archives/2007/11/what_they_said.html is an interesting read regarding polling amongst other things. Good read. Timeshift 07:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  1996 and 2007 similarities 

message: Changed the description of the ALP from 'center-left' to 'Social Democratic' as I believe this is a more accurate description. Alans1977 20:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Forgot to mention that I'm referring to the second paragraph of the article. Alans1977 20:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

text: All these descriptions are in the infoboxes of both party's pages, and then some. It's long been agreed that the current method is the best method. Reverted. Timeshift 20:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I certainly don't agree. The terms center-left and center-right are far to broad to accurately describe the two sides. It is quite easy to argue that the ALP are far closer to the center (with some even arguing that they are center-right) than to the left. Usage of the term center-left is misleading in that it is not specific enough. Similar sorts of arguments can be used for the Coalition. Reverted. Alans1977 20:57, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To argue the ALP is social democratic and  Libs are economic rationalist is the misleading statement here. Both parties are economic rationalist. Centre-left and right are still and will always be correct as long as Labor stays to the left of the coalition, no matter how small that gap may be. Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean you can revert long-standing conventions. Timeshift 21:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I disagree. The thing about conventions is that they change. Calling the ALP center-left is completely misleading to someone who is in a socialist country or in a fascist country. Also I find the adding of the link http://www.daylife.com/photo/0e9ycyW73Tcaq as a reference to the ALP being center-left (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Australian_federal_election%2C_2007&curid=1056082&diff=171514591&oldid=171513850) demonstrates you're towing a POV argument. Reverted. Alans1977 21:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Australian_Labor_Party/Archive_1#No_Longer_Centre_Left - you have no consensus so why are you insisting? As for the refs I added, they were just the first ones in google when I was getting a cite for centre-left and centre-right. I have removed all descriptions while this is discussed. How you can describe the coalition but not the ALP as economic rationalists is beyond me. Timeshift 21:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A discussion on another page involving 4 logged in users hardily constitutes me having or not having consensus on this page. Alans1977 21:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Describing one party but not the other as economic rationalist kinda blows your version out of the water doesn't it... Timeshift 21:17, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so. Rudd might be trying to paint himself and Labor as economic rationalist at the moment, but whether that will be the case if the ALP wins is another thing. Whereas it is easier to describe the Coalition as economic rationalist. Also I felt it would not of been doing the Coalition justice just to call them socially conservative. Alans1977 21:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh? Labor has been economically rationalist since 1983... Hawke, Keating, Beazley, Crean, Latham, Rudd, they are/were all economic rationalists... I think you need to do a bit more research on the economic policies of earlier Labor governments and oppositions. Timeshift 21:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you be happier with the term Neoliberalism is relation to Coalition ideology? Alans1977 21:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

text: People reading this article might not want to read further into the ALP or the Coalition. Also just because no one on this page has mentioned it before, that does not mean it is implied that everyone is happy with it. Clearly I am not happy with calling the Coalition center-right and calling the ALP center-left, as I believe thess terms are too broad and as a consequence could be misleading. I am however happy to hear what other people have to say. Alans1977 21:38, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You think centre-left and centre-right is misleading, yet you're happy to label the Libs but not the ALP as economic rationalists? Ahahahaha. Timeshift 21:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see your point there. I'd be happy to remove 'economic rationalist, socially conservative' and replace it with 'neoliberal'. Alans1977 21:56, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also think some would object to neoliberal. Liberal conservative, conservative liberalism, and New Right describe them best, per Liberal Party of Australia - same goes for Labor, best described by Democratic socialism, Social democracy, and Third Way, per Australian Labor Party (and Labour Party (UK) too...) Timeshift 21:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a read of the Neoliberalism page shows quite well how the Coalition falls into the category. Alans1977 22:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This debate is not dissimilar to one that have cropped up on many other articles on parties and elections in other countries (the ongoing one on Talk:Labour Party (UK) springs most readily to mind). It basically boils down to whether or not there is some objective NPOV concept of "left" and "right" that is all applicable or whether in a country with long established dominant political parties "left" and "right" are predominantly the descriptions for where those parties lie in the country's system, with notions of what ideas constitute "left" and "right" stemming from what the parties say and do. The latter is frankly the only meaningful use of the terms - over time and across different countries "left" and "right" have taken on very different meanings. Unless anyone's seriously arguing that the ALP is actually to the right of the Coalition then surely "centre left" and "centre right" are succint enough descriptions? Timrollpickering 22:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

text: And they are Tim. We just need a few more similar posts to demonstrate consensus before we can change it back to what it has been for ages. Timeshift 22:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tim, Australians are not the only people who may read this page and thus usage of terms center-left and center-right are in my opinion misleading. Timeshift, I did not argue that the ALP is to the right of the Coalition. Alans1977 22:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I know non-Australians read the page (like me) but I'm not sure a very long introductory sentence like "The opposition democratic socialist, social democratic, Third Way (Centrist) Australian Labor Party, currently led by Kevin Rudd and deputy leader Julia Gillard, will be the main challenger to the incumbent Coalition government in power since the 1996 election, currently led by the Prime Minister and leader of the conservative liberal, liberal conservative, New Right Liberal Party of Australia, John Howard, and his coalition partner the Deputy Prime Minister and leader of the conservative, agrarianist National Party of Australia, Mark Vaile" is really doing the reader any favours, especially when the distinction between "democratic socialist" and "social democrat" can be so complicated as to evade easy understanding; ditto the difference between "conservative liberalist" and "liberal conservative" and also for that matter with "conservative"; and that's just taking the terms used to describe them on their pages. Oh and just in case they feel left out, the Country Liberal Party is just a "liberal conservative" according to its own page whilst the Coalition (Australia) is just described as "centre-right". Anything further and it gets into the area of labels that aren't even used on the relevant party's own article so I question why this is the place to start labelling the parties with such concepts. Timrollpickering 22:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

text: And Timeshift I would be happy with the terms center-left and center-right being removed than them being put back, even if that means there is nothing else there.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alans1977 (talk • contribs) 22:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well i'm not, so i'll await consensus. Timeshift 22:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

text: We've been through this many times before. "Centre-left" and "Centre-right" are by far the best neutral, single-phrase descriptions for ALP and Coalition respectively. They are unambiguous. They are free from loaded or ambiguous jargon like "third way", "liberal", "social democrat" etc. Peter Ballard 00:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with the above. Centre-left and centre-right is definitely the best description; succint and accurate. Recurring dreams 00:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

text: "Center-left" and "center-right" are certainly a lot more ambiguous than terms like "liberal", "social democrat", etc. Especially when one does not the context in which the terms "center-left" and "center-right" are being used. Also I don't see how terms such as "liberal" and "social democrat" are loaded. Alans1977 01:27, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I meant "third way" was loaded. As for "Center-left" and "center-right" being more ambiguous than "liberal" or "social democrat", I disagree 100%. Peter Ballard 01:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I really don't see how "social democrat", "liberal" or "social conservative" really makes the situation clearer. None of the terms encompass the entire philosophical position of either party. Much better to go for the simple and commonsense description. Recurring dreams 01:36, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Timeshift, three people with one point of view and one against is a long way from consensus, especially when the conversation has only gone on for half a day and there very well be others who share my sentiments. Alans1977 02:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As already stated by me and others, we've had this debate so many times before. Nothing changes, people always favour centre-left and centre-right. How about discussing it here BEFORE making your changes? Seeing as it's been this way for ages... then if somehow, you find that you gain support for your ideas, THEN go about changing it. Timeshift 02:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll not step into the debate over which term is more accurate (though I'll note that if you try political compass, the Libs are right to far right, Labor centre-right and the greens mid left) but I will say we should use whatever the party articles use. If there is a debate over what ideology they are, that should be made on the individual party discussion pages, where more interested editors can comment. Iorek 07:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Description of ALP 

message: *Crikey election 07: Are you ready?
*Crikey election 07: week 1
*Crikey election 07: week 2
*Crikey election 07: halfway mark
*Crikey election 07: week 4
*Crikey election 07: week 5
Enjoy! Timeshift 09:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Crikey vids

message: So he really isn't Darth Vader/Sith Lord material.
Roswell Crash Survivor (talk) 05:50, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  John Howard does not have Force Choke abilities 

message: A recent addition describes the release of the Tony Abbot video an "attack", and a "Labor party 'cut-and-paste job'". Here's the edit. Is it a Labor attack? Do we need to describe it as "an attack"? Using that kind of wording, anything in the election campaign could be called "an attack". And what is a "cut-&-paste job"? There are other articles which quote Abbott admitting he used the words depicted in the video, and articles quoting the Labor Party denying they doctored the video. I think this section needs a rewrite.--Lester 05:19, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cut and paste job is how it was described. Replaced attack with video. Section should be fine now. Timeshift 10:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Cut and paste is in inverted commas and is a quote - it should be noted after it that the Labor party contested that version of events, preferably with a quote from them, and then the thing is NPOV. The mission should always be "let the facts tell the story". Orderinchaos 23:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Cut & Paste attack"? 

message: What polls are currently being used in the infobox for this page? If it isn't already the case but the infobox simply hasn't been updated, as ACNielsen and Newspoll are the only two to do Preferred Prime Minister as well, in addition to the obvious graphs I propose we have the latest of those two there and disregard the other two, ie: changing the current newspoll 55 to acnielsen 54 and PPM etc. Timeshift (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox poll 

message: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22795174-5012863,00.html and http://www.theage.com.au/news/federal-election-2007-news/libs-predict-candidate-limbo/2007/11/21/1195321822861.html - a QC has even offered an opinion (of approval) over the ALP Wentworth candidate. Is this noteable to the campaign (i'm not sure either way on this) and if so, a bit more balance would be nice. Timeshift (talk) 01:27, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Robb and the 13 Labor candidates 

message: Should this get its own page? I'm not advocating removal, just trying to gauge wikipedia community opinion. Timeshift (talk) 08:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I say no. What, a WP page for every news item now? Delete and merge into election article (where it already is, no doubt). I also note that searching on Google News for "Lindsay Affair" gets zero hits, so to give the scandal a name is a form of WP:OR. Peter Ballard (talk) 09:26, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bear in mind it was only revealed yesterday and google usually takes a few days at least to crawl through new pages. Timeshift (talk) 09:29, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Google News doesn't. Searching for 'kelly leaflets' (without the quotes) gave 377 hits. Peter Ballard (talk) 10:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: True. Timeshift (talk) 10:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: News Limited's news.com.au website has been offering a PDF download of the actual document, if that's any help. I think 'The Lindsay Affair' is a reasonably neutral name.Lester 10:41, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[The Lindsay Affair]] at end of week 6 section 

message: 2PP - Galaxy ALP 52, ACNielsen ALP 57 with Rudd 52-40 Howard on PPM. Timeshift (talk) 15:31, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Election eve polls out

message: Is the comment by Hilaly calling on the faithful to vote Labor worth mentioning in the article? What about the controversy about the death penalty for the Bali bombers? Or would this be giving undue prominence to security-related issues? Andjam (talk) 00:27, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: About the Hilaly thing, no not really. Most of the Muslims live in dead safe ALP strongholds and usually vote ALP anyway. It would be more notable if the opposite thing happened, like the Auburn by-election. Blnguyen  (bananabucket) 00:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bali bombing controversy, Hilaly comment 

message: Is opposing the execution of Bali bombers the same as supporting terrorists? Is this NPOV? The IAF's POV? Clark's POV? The ALP's POV? Andjam (talk) 00:44, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's a bit tricky. In the general case, no, since a lot of people oppose all death penalty. In the case of this hoax, it would be fair to assume that the "pamphlet-POV" is that "Labor supports violent jihad". So, yeah, it's a bit tricky. Blnguyen  (bananabucket) 00:47, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The "pamphlet-POV" is that "Labor supports violent jihad". The coalition had implied that exact message during the last term of parliament on more than one occasion. So I have no qualms. Timeshift (talk) 04:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Coalition (as a whole) doesn't support the execution of the Bali bombers. Does that make them pro-jihad as well? Andjam (talk) 04:26, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly!! The hypocrisy and dog-whistling on this issue is incredible. Timeshift (talk) 04:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dog-whisting? You're not seriously suggesting that this was a ploy from high up in Liberal ranks? Any Liberal with half a brain would see this would backfire. It's not dog-whistling, it's just plain idiocy. Peter Ballard (talk) 04:43, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, how things did backfire on them. This sort of thing backfired for Labor before, you'd think the Liberal Party would have learned. And Jackie Kelly? You were just inviting the Chaser to appear when you went on radio. Thus they did on the day, causing more embarassment for the Liberal Party member. Nice going. - 220.237.19.227 (talk) 13:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Unless you (Timeshift9, not Peter Ballard) can find a reliable source saying that the Coalition as a whole implies that Labor is intentionally pro-jihad, it may be better to treat implication as in the eye of the beholder. Andjam (talk) 04:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Fair enough. Peter Ballard (talk) 05:05, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

text: My point exactly. I was amazed when Howard came out with his "lightening speed" words. Any other time he'd have joined in with his other ministers and/or MPs at hinting Labor likes to dabble with terrorists. Timeshift (talk) 05:16, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you feel that supporting terrorists is the same as supporting terrorism? Andjam (talk) 05:24, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It depends on why the person is allegedly supporting the terrorist. If it is for their cause, then yes. But the term terrorist/m, spanning from terror, is completely subjective. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. One side are supposed terrorists to the other, and vice versa. Timeshift (talk) 05:27, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wording of Islamic Australia Federation hoax 

message: Timeshift's comments remind me of a stylistic change that I find a little odd.
For most of the coverage of the Bali bombings, in both the media and in wikipedia, the preferred (but not exclusive) terms have been Bali bombings and Bali bombers. Less harsh terms than terrorism or terrorists. Thank you, soft, cuddly and non-judgemental main stream media.
Yet for the Islamic Australia Federation hoax, they've been elevated to terrorists.
Why? Is it because some people want to make the Lindsay 5 as nasty as possible? Andjam (talk) 06:24, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Makes sense. I've changed it to Bali bombers, as it is both more precise and more neutral, though the Bali Bombing page does call it an act of terrorism, and since they are convicted of having done it, this makes them terrorists. Iorek (talk) 06:42, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of the word terrorist 

message: google news only has one article mentioning exit polls less than 16 hours ago (as of 05:50, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I concede it cannot be referenced, i'm hearing this from unquoteable sources. But i'm sure it will all be out soon enough. Timeshift (talk) 06:07, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exit poll