Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view

message: I just want to point out a recurring argument regarding the structure of the policy. The argument is simply that the first sentence in the lead does not mention explicitly concepts principles such as "do not take sides", "do not engage in debates, but describe them", "attribute opinions" and therefore these are not central concepts principles of NPOV. Dominic Mayers (talk) 16:47, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Are those concepts or are they ways in which concepts are operationalized? If we want to interrogate just one of them "do not engage in debates, but describe them" is not a concept, its guidance on how to follow the concepts. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:50, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe I understand your point. If I understand correctly, you are saying that they are not mentioned, because they are principles that are needed to achieve the goal, not the goal itself. I am curious to know what others have to say. Dominic Mayers (talk) 17:01, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: More or less, but when I think about it the policy itself is a principle and the goal is the creation of an encyclopedia. If you wanted to call NPOV, V, and NOR our core principles I would agree with that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:44, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recurring arguments about the structure of the policy 

message: It fails to mention the important point that it is about a paraphrase of Jimmy Wales 2003 statement. It also cherry picks what  it considers relevant in that paraphrase. In particular, the following point  in the 2003 statement is not mentioned: 
It is important, because its reference to "prominent adherents"  makes it clear that Jimmy Wales was thinking in very general terms. There is also a bias in making a pre RfC on reliable sources, which is already emphasized all over the place in the policy,  while "without taking sides", which is a key point made in the nutshell at the top of the policy, is not even mentioned once after in the policy.
"Reliable sources" was not mentioned at the time of the 2003 statement, whereas the 2003 statement mentions "without taking sides".  Since it is in the original 2003 statement, I think it is this that should appear in the paraphrase, not "reliable sources". It is also biased to refer to a "restoration". It is not that the policy was modified by removing "reliable sources" and now we want to restore it. No, it is the opposite. It has been proposed today to add it and this is contested.   
Dominic Mayers (talk) 18:47, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not an RfC. It is for discussion to avoid any problems in the event an RfC is necessary. It is important to examine the issue from many angles so an RfC can be focused on a limited and specific issue. It is not possible to consider every single possibility in every discussion. This just leads to endless discussions like the ones you get involved in. Other editors finally just give up as the discussions are hopeless and goalposts keep getting moved. Try to stay focused. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:23, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do not make judgements about my manner to proceed, but focus on the essential of my arguments instead. In this way, I will not have to reply about superficial issues like I am forced to do now and we will have the required focus. Dominic Mayers (talk) 19:28, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: This informal or pre Rfc is biased

message: The question is Does Wikipedia take sides?  We will have a lot of answers depending on the interpretation of "taking sides". Some, will say that Wikipedia must in many cases take sides, but this is because of what they associate with "taking sides". It's the wrong approach. The correct approach is to respect the idea that has been there  and has defined Wikipedia for more than 20 years and try to agree on how to practically achieve it. The point is that, not taking sides, in the sense of being neutral, is generally accepted as positive for an encyclopedia and we should start with this as a premise and build around it.  The way I understand it, "not taking sides" can be achieved by being more descriptive/informative, more factual, less engaged in superficial ill informed debates.  Even those who originally say that Wikipedia must often take sides, without fundamentally changing their mind, might agree this is a good thing.   Dominic Mayers (talk) 21:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: "more factual" You can't be factual while not taking sides. One of the reasons several Wikipedia articles tend to read like public relations campaigns is that the encyclopedia's house style tends to downplay the controversial aspects of several topics. That is obscurantism, not factual reporting. Dimadick (talk) 00:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: , see my explanation in the next section.    Dominic Mayers (talk) 02:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  It's the wrong question 

message: Not taking sides is the most fundamental principle of NPOV. It is mentioned right at the start. Nevertheless,  many people say that we must take sides. It is not that bad, because they actually mean that we must give due weight to the dominant point of view. Fine, but why that confusion between due weight and not taking sides ? I propose that the explanation is that not taking sides is only about the editorial process per se and does not refer to the content in the sources that finds its way in the article.  So, "due weight" refers to the content in sources that finds its way in the articles, but not taking sides only refers to the editorial process per se. Therefore, if you naively think that the content in the article is essentially a transcription of the content in sources, that is, if you consider that the editorial process can essentially be ignored when we define "not taking sides", then you will necessarily confuse "not taking sides" with "due weight". You will consider that not taking sides means that the article reflects the bias in sources: it will not be about the editorial process, including attribution, etc.   Therefore, I propose that the real confusion, the real problem, is a misunderstanding of the important rôle of the editorial process. Dominic Mayers (talk) 04:01, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been trying to follow your logic for the last several threads, and at this point, you've lost any chance of anyone following this.First, do not create a new section title for a continuation of a discussion. That makes it difficult to have others follow what you mean. The volume of what you're posting is also approaching WP:TE / WP:DEADHORSE levels of involvement, particularly given the struggles to get a rational debate out of this.Second, you need more concrete examples, and more than this Paris and roads analogy. I have no idea where your initial concern rose from, but a good example that we can all judge in the present tense is something like how Trump is handled in sources. You don't have to use that, but its far easier to put things in concrete terms than these abstracts you're dancing around.Third, if I think the point you are trying to make is what it is, I have long ago believed that our neutral POV should try to reflect the nature of a matter that we know exists in the real world but which might not be represented by reliable sources (particularly given the left-lean we have collalesed around due to the quality of these sources and the general trend of lack of quality on more right-leaning ones).  That is, I once though we should strive to capture the state of views based on what the overall population thought, and not that told to us by reliable sources. But I've been through enough editing on my contributions and in debates in other places  (eg Gamergate) that I recognize why we reflect what the state of views are on a topic as told by what RSes give us, and not what we cannot source properly. WP:V is more fundamental than NPOV in terms of content policies, so if it cannot be verified in a reliable source, it goes nowhere for us. We certainly should try to make sure that minority viewpoints that are captured in RSes are not outright ignored (that is, despite our RSes not including many right-leaning sources, we often get the right wing views from left-leaning sources that cover that), but we should not force a false balance or any type of artificial weighting to force minority viewpoints otherwise not covered by RSes.  I will still argue that there is a need to apply careful application of attribution and language to make sure we aren't rushing to state majority views in Wikivoice, but that's a wholly different matter than acknowledging that NPOV depends on what's provided through the sources that meet WP:V.If that is not what you are arguing, then I think you've completely lost what point you are trying to make here, and it may be better to take a short break, collect your thoughts, and come back with a more reasoned argument. — Masem (t) 04:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  , I couldn't have said it better. I share your concerns about the bludgeoning and huge amount of material. I also agree with your comments about WP:V and editing. We obviously don't just take what RS say and plop it down and think that's all that needs to be done. We do exercise common sense and editorial judgment in how we frame our content. My concern is that RS, not editors, should be the only source of bias, hence my belief that we should let RS speak without editorial interference. By "interference", I am not referring to normal editorial processes, but to what happens when editors censor or manipulate content to fit their own beliefs and opinions. We want to hear the opinions of the sources, not the opinions of editors. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:32, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

text:  Note added: I find it annoying that people insert comments without respecting the chronological order. Now, I need to indicate clearly that I am replying to the 04:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

text:  Your reply suggests that you believe that I am endorsing original research.  I am speaking about a legitimate and required editorial process, not about some illegitimate original research. You have given the most trivial case of a valid editorial process: attribution. So, you do understand the distinction between a valid editorial process and illegitimate original research. That simple case, should be enough to understand the general idea. The idea, when seen in the light of that simple case, is that when you attribute and write "Wacko Smith said the earth is flat" instead of "The earth is flat" you are doing the editorial work that is needed for not taking sides. This is the key point: not taking sides happens through the important editorial process. As pointed out by Beland, . If people, despite this example, still do not fully realize the very important role of the editorial process, say because they confuse it with original research, then they will confuse "due weight" with "taking sides". They will not understand that the most important in the editorial process is to "avoid taking sides" while giving "due weight". Really, it is clear, that many people seem to do that mistake when they insist that we must take sides. With a proper understanding that "not taking sides" is the essential ingredient of a good editorial process, they will never say that. Dominic Mayers (talk) 12:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, tone, and word choice, and structure do have something to do with the neutrality we are seeking, but that's just it, it is a part and you still have to have communal standards shared measurements (so probably something objective to look outside ourselves) on how to get to that and the rest. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:36, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not just tone, phrasing or organization (the structure), it is also about the actual content. This is said in the second part of the nutshell: . Dominic Mayers (talk) 12:42, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I just said that, and the point remains. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:47, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not understand your point, but if you say that it says what I said and is in the nutshell, I will not dig further. OK, I just digged further and perhaps you simply meant that we still need to avoid doing original research. Of  course, we all agree with that. Dominic Mayers (talk) 12:53, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought the point clear, this and every policy is functional and its function is to get a bunch of people to pull together, so there are a bunch of agreements outside ourselves we have to make for measurement, standards, etc., and it is decidedly not an ontological exercise. - Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:59, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  I believe you are simply warning that getting an agreement on policy is not obvious. Sure, I agree. In fact, I am thinking that all the times. Dominic Mayers (talk) 15:27, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:   The important editorial process and the confusion between due weight and taking sides