Talk:Holly Woodlawn

message: Not that it matters much, but is Holly Woodlawn a transvestite, transsexual or other transgender? And any citations for that? Cheers! Lauren♫/∆ 07:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A matter of definition 

message: (an answer to the above)
Labels mean different things to different people. Holly is not, by definition, a transsexual--NO. Holly has male genitalia. She didn't have the OP, or the filet, as some of the girls call it. Holly doesn't dress in womens clothing when she's not doing a show or playing Holly Woodlawn somewhere. At home, it's usually pants and a shirt--nothing fancy. No wigs or make-up.
Holly was in fact transgender.  How she dressed is irrelevant.  Gender identity and gender expression are 2 completely unrelated things.  All cisgender women don't dress up all fancy with makeup and such all the time either, so are they not women?  And regardless of what genitalia she had, which is no one's god damn business, gender is in your brain, not your pants.  
As a transgender woman myself I find this to be totally ignorant!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.152.20.39 (talk) 14:44, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Well, it DOES matter to some

message: From her Home Page at http://www.hollywoodlawnsuperstar.com  .....
In the late 1970’s Geraldo Rivera interviewed Holly on television, asking her: “What are you? Are you a woman trapped in a man’s body? A transvestite? A transsexual?” Holly replied, “But darling, what difference does it make, as long as you look FABULOUS?” Taylorhults (talk) 05:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The Answer According to Holly

message: This article was automatically  assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 16:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: I've added Holly's birth name.  Not sure why it was omitted (or perhaps removed?), as Wikipedia is not censored, and one's birth name is certainly relevant information for any biography! -2003:CA:871E:36C7:8143:BFF0:ECFB:33D3 (talk) 14:09, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see the Wikipedia policy MOS:DEADNAME on this topic. In particular, when trans people were never known under their old names wikipedia respects their privacy. Rab V (talk) 05:50, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This is incredibly Orwellian, and plainly violates WP:NOTCENSORED.  The birth name is inherently relevant and notable to a biography.  Politeness in not using the old name in day to day discourse is one thing, but this is unhinged ideological extremism - trying to deny basic history because some people might be offended by it.  Crazy times we're living in! -2003:CA:872B:6755:C88B:6199:3ABD:D00 (talk) 13:02, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

text: User:Rab V. No, it does not go against any WP policy. Take for instance Holly Woodlawn's friend Penny Arcade. She is only known by this name: Penny Arcade. That is her notability for inclusion at WP. But her birth name (Susana Carmen Ventura) is presented in her WP BLP article both in the lead and infobox. To say her birth name should be left out for any reason is without merit or argument. There is no policy to back your claim for reversion. And yes, the above does form a consensus as you are the only one who thinks it does not belong. Do not revert until you can find precise WP policy and / or gain consensus here to remove. Thank you. Maineartists (talk) 17:59, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

text: MOS:DEADNAME is the relevant policy as discussed earlier. It is part of the MOS and a standard to follow across all Wikipedia. Those articles you listed do include name when and only when that policy says they should be included, for people who were relevant under their prior name. This isn't the case here. Also Divine is not trans so that is an irrelevant example. Per WP:BRD please leave the version that existed before your edits unless you can show there is consensus to go against well-established wikipedia policy. Rab V (talk) 00:42, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop calling MOS:DEADNAME "policy". It is not. It is a guideline as stated at the top of the page and on linked pages: MOS:GIDINFO "This is a collection of information on Wikipedia's gender identity guidelines, including a table of community discussions and certain best practices for further discussion." Saying that Divine is irrelevant because they were not trans is ridiculous at best. Plain and simple: Divine was not notable under her included birth name. End of discussion. Second, WP:BRD is what I did. Not what was there before. Third, there is consensus as given in this discussion: 1. The first IP inclusion. 2. "Please also note that the guideline MOS:DEADNAME is specifically about living persons and respecting their privacy, whereas the subject of this article is not living, and the guideline is therefore not applicable." Therefore, I agree with the IP editor that the birth name is eligible for inclusion." 3. "The birth name is inherently relevant and notable to a biography." 4. I also agree. 4 in favor, 1 against. Last, you are merely linking MOS:DEADNAME, which is not policy. There is nothing in this guideline that can be attributed to Holly Woodlawn since her birth name was published in the New York Times at the time of her death. You write: "... when trans people were never known under their old names." Woodlawn died in 2015 and since then is known as "Holly Woodlawn, born as Haroldo Santiago Franceschi Rodriguez Danhakl" whenever she is written about: Tampa Bay Times, The Suite Life LA, Revolver Warhol Gallery, Academic Encyclopedia, Vogue Magazine, etc. QUOTE: "Holly, born Haroldo Santiago Franceschi Rodriguez Danhakl in Puerto Rico in 1946." Even Simple English Wikipedia states Holly's birth name. I do not need to show anything re: consensus going "against well-established Wikipedia policy" because there is no such thing. The consensus is backed by this discussion. Which you are in the minority. If you revert again, I will be forced to report you to 3RR or edit warring. You are not reading the guidelines correctly, using links such as UNDUE and WP:BRD where they are not applicable. Without consensus discussion to back your claim, the inclusion remains. MOS:DEADNAME is not policy but guidelines for discussion. Maineartists (talk) 01:26, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: You misunderstand both what the MOS is and what DEADNAME has to say. The manual of style is not meant to be reargued on every page but a guideline for all of Wikipedia that can only be ignored if there is strong editor consensus to do so and only then on certain pages. GDINFO is a separate explanatory essay meant to describe DEADNAME so holds less weight. DEADNAME only applies to transgender people and Divine is not trans. It only allows for deadnames to be included if the subject was notable under that name, so Caitlyn Jenner and your other examples still follow DEADNAME. You can look at the page Laverne Cox for an example of someone like Holly Woodlawn who was not notable under her deadname and so it is not included. Rab V (talk) 02:11, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added birth name 

message: Should this article include the subject's birth name? Maineartists (talk) 02:17, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding "policy", the DEADNAME page states at the top that it's a guideline, not a policy (see WP:POLICIES for definition).  Also, the guideline states that it considers "a living transgender or non-binary person", which Holly is not.  In addition, it should be taken into consideration that being transgender is one of the things Holly is notable for.  -- HLachman (talk) 03:03, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Firefangledfeathers It is more a questioning the possibility that a shift back home perhaps also meant a shift back to prior name. Sources say in 1979 Holly cut her hair, moved back in with the parents, worked as a busboy at Benihanas 1 2 and for the father's tax business 3.   Mostly the birth name seems not a deadname situation of Holly having any issue with referring to the other name.  I don't have the autobiography text, but I note online bits saying it talked openly and I see online bits indicating Holly was open about whatever was done and had unique personal choices rather than some stereotype or any concern about the earlier name.   Her late life moved out to West Hollywood and relative poverty as of the 2007 interview with the Guardian was not in drag, so at least sometimes Holly was open to dressing as a male. 4.   That interview also asked about her alter-ego and Holly said couldn't even remember who she'd been back then, so again it seems the birth name is not blocked but it also was something not much used or important so OK to mention but not deserving much mention.  Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:21, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

text: Regarding "guideline is a policy", the DEADNAME page states at the top that it's a guideline, and WP:POLICIES specifies the difference between guidelines and policies.  I don't think this is "splitting hairs", just suggesting not to make unilateral declarations about Wikipedia policy that are not supported by the actual policies (by saying "a guideline is a policy", etc.).  Also, as stated elsewhere on this page, DEADNAME discusses only the treatment of living persons, which Holly is not.  -- HLachman (talk) 03:03, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

text: This raises several questions.  If the reason to exclude the birth name is that the subject never used it while high-profile, doesn't that mean other birth names (e.g., those of Little Richard, Betty Ford, W.C. Fields, etc.) should also be suppressed?  Regarding "modern style guides" and "unnecessary", aren't there different guidelines for different media, e.g., journalism vs. encyclopedic?  Encyclopedias regularly provide birth names while they don't normally appear in news articles.  -- HLachman (talk) 03:03, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

text:  The first "yes" vote in this section (from Maineartists) states "even Woodlawn herself stated she was born Haraldo Santiago Franceschi Rodriguez Danhakl in her autobiography" (and then specifies the source).  Does that resolve your question to your satisfaction?  If so, please indicate your vote.  -- HLachman (talk) 05:18, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I saw that mentioned, but I didn't notice that the full text was available on archive.org. I've now had a look and I'm satisfied that the subject expressed no qualms about including her birth name, but I couldn't confirm (via the archive.org "search inside" feature) the long name mentioned here - a different surname is mentioned. I'll vote Yes, but we need a specific reference (e.g. a page number in the autobiography) to verify that we've got it right. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 10:17, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for comment