Wikipedia talk:In the news/Archive 16

message: hi, can we change the picture? it's been that scowling irish guy for quite some time, and it's kinda starting to get on my nerves.. thanks, 131.111.8.99 07:55, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ITN works on suggestions from people such as yourself. Instead of just asking if we can change the picture, could you perhaps help find a new picture that has a suitable licence to replace it with? If such a picture could be found, it would have been changed already. --Monotonehell 13:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Perhaps a cropped picture of the May 2007 RCTV protests? --199.71.174.100 21:33, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I made a crop as the anon. suggested: :Image:ProtestosRCTV crop1.jpg. I have protected it. If someone thinks it is ok for the Main page go ahead and use it, otherwise I will delete it in a day or so.--Commander Keane 22:09, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  new picture please 

message: Why is it not mentioned here? Buc 17:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See the discussion on the candidates' page. Badgerpatrol 18:56, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Disappearance of [[Madeleine McCann]] 

message: ITN has held Lord Stanley's Mug for two days. Actual winners of the trophy can only keep it for one day. Can we have  (pictured) on the Main Page instead, please? --74.13.124.115 06:16, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How about zooming in to the Space Shuttle? All I see are the bright exhumes... --Howard the Duck 09:22, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: new picture, please.

message: I want to request "Roger Federer becomes the first man in 38 years to hold all four tennis grand slams by defeating Rafael Nadal in the French Open final." to appear on the main page if it happens. Buc 09:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They're not exactly 'banned' but they are easily overlooked; it's much easier to use the candidates page when the article update actually occurs. --Golbez 12:15, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Note: it didn't happen, unfortunately. But the men and women's singles winners should be ITN as it is important and notable. Maybe a picture, too, if there is a free one. └Jared┘┌t┐  17:07, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are Premature requests allowed 

message: Can we remove the Stanley Cup now? - That was on 06/06 already and it's only a local sports event anyway. - I propose to delete sports events after 2 days from ITN, how about that? - Cheers, MikeZ 11:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See #Loosen up the rules, above... --Howard the Duck 16:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

text: ITN items are added at the top in date order, and fall off the bottom as more items are added to the top. Any other course of action involves a subjective call which is wide open to endless debate. --Monotonehell 23:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal: Get rid of Stanley Cup now... 

message: Why does the blurb on Denmark v Sweden read "After a European Soccer Championship qualification match"? Isn't the consensus that we call the sport football when it concerns Europe, as in the Union of European Football Associations? AecisBrievenbus 21:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since there are at least 6 different codes around the World that are all called "Football" locally, a more logical course of action would be to call them: Soccer, Gridiron (or possibly American football), Canadian football, Australian rules football, Gaelic football, Rugby league and Rugby Union. Or similarly, agreed on, unique names. After all we don't refer to Munich as München. --Monotonehell 23:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is called football (soccer). Why can't we go by that? Why use a term that is used only in the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, to refer to an event in Europe? AecisBrievenbus 23:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The piped link itself links to 2008 UEFA European Football Championship. If we call it a football championship in the relevant article, why should we use the term soccer on ITN? AecisBrievenbus 23:54, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because as I stated above, there is ambiguity to the term "football" throughout the World. Everyone has their own kind of "football". Whist the competition is called the European Football Championship, the ambiguity exists outside of Europe. Ask a random person in.. oh I don't know.. Amsterdam (;)) what "Football" is and they'll most probably describe a game with a round ball and the beauty of a ballet performance. But ask the same question to someone in Chicago, Dublin, Melbourne or Sydney and you'll get four different answers. As I said the ambiguity exists outside of Europe and so should be delt with outside the article (ie ITN) --Monotonehell 02:56, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soccer? 

message: I propose we remove "Frenchman" from the part about Tony Parker winning the Finals MVP. We never said "American Tim Duncan" won the Finals MVP. It should just be "Tony Parker won the Finals MVP. Mfn0426 16:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's notable since Parker was the first European - and Frenchman to win the Finals MVP award. --Howard the Duck 03:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tony Parker 

message: Please update ITN. There are a few suggestions at WP:ITN/C waiting for admins' approval. Thanks. --74.13.130.59 01:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, Admin:Zzyzx11. --74.13.130.59 08:20, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Please update ITN

message: I move that we put the new brit PM as the pic. Image:Gordon Brown.jpg . as far as i can tell it's a U.S. State Department pic, which would be PD, if i'm thinking correctly. -- preschooler@heart  13:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nevermind. Done before I pressed save page. good work. -- preschooler@heart  13:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As soon as it morphed into an Egyptian sarcophagus I was hardly expecting to see Gordon's ugly mug reappear. Why do we have to use it simply because it's PD? The Egyptian one is Creative Commons which is just as good, and preferable as it is the highest article. --84.71.35.120 09:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gordon Brown is the mastermind of the bomb attempt! I knew it! --Howard the Duck 16:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine, the higher article. The bomb news was put there after my message. (I knew I should have listened when someone mentioned a suspicious car in Piccadilly yesterday.) --84.71.35.120 16:21, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Not that it matters, because I can't remember a single time that I have commented on this page and something was done as a result. --84.71.35.120 16:23, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Aww, well you can count this as the first time then. :) --Monotonehell 21:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hurrah! That has restored my faith. --84.71.35.120 22:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New Picture

message: Foiled is rather a stong word to use for what the police did and a bit tabloid.  The bombs were planted.  They just failed to go off.   Wouldn't wording based on the main article be better?  Two unexploded car bombs were discovered on 29 June 2007 in London, England.--Cavrdg 06:13, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, either discovered, defused, or made safe. Foiled puts a different slant on it. -Monotonehell 09:20, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither the defused car bombs or the burning car are 'world news'. These things happen on a daily basis in some parts of the world.--Nydas(Talk) 21:06, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you should submit those for the candidates. And they don't happen on a daily basis in Britain; the novelty is part of what makes it newsworthy. --Golbez 21:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They don't happen on a daily basis in Turkey or Malaysia, either. But I doubt unexploded bombs in those countries would make it into the news template.--Nydas(Talk) 07:54, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They would(should) if the meet the criteria. --Monotonehell 14:00, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Car Bombs Foiled?

message: I added this to the template, but was reverted. This is being widely reported, but I don't feel like entering a wheel war. Since this is being widely reported in the mainstream media it seems to me that there is no problem with verifiability, and I would request that another admin readd the story to the template. JACOPLANE • 2007-07-3 21:41
:Being widely reported is not enough, ITN is not a news ticker. If you feel it's worth adding, you can bring it up at Wikipedia:In the news section on the Main Page/Candidates. AecisBrievenbus 22:23, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's certainly more notable than the American basketball game that was listed here last week.  I swear, this template's priorities are so backwards it's laughable. Italiavivi 22:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is absolutely no precedent on ITN. And that basketball game had internationally interest, read the sections above. With that said, this is even not news. --Howard the Duck 16:18, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The edit summary says that the position is disputed, the article says that the position is disputed, we don't tend to put wobbly facts in ITN. That's most likely why it was removed. Nothing to do with "backward priorities" --Monotonehell 23:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Richest person in the world 

message: isn't one of these mising?America's cup 03:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''(pictured)'' 

message: Roger Federer and Venus Williams win the men's singles and women's singles of the 2007 Wimbledon Championships.
— └Jared┘┌t┐  17:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wimbledon 

message: It would obviously be a violation of Criteria (or "Criterion") 5 to mention the death of former US first lady Lady Bird Johnson. I can understand the rationale for Criteria 5 -- we don't want to swamp ITN with death notices. But on the other hand, considering that we've been quite conservative in updating ITN, I think we could loosen Criteria 5 just enough to allow for including the deaths of very notable people like James Brown and, when he passes, Ariel Sharon. I figure many people look for information on a famous person when he or she dies, and including a very limited number of deaths on ITN might be helpful. -- Mwalcoff 22:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think so too. Here's my suggested test to allow a suspension of criterion 5: if an article on the person's death appears as the top story or front image of a major news website for a reasonable time, the person's death is significant enough to be featured in ITN. In this case, LBJ (wasn't that her husband's initialism, too?!) appeared on CNN for a while, as well as others I'm sure. Thus, I believe it is important to mention. └Jared┘┌t┐  23:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What's a major news site though? If we only go with things like BBC, NYT, CNN then we risk a major US & UK bias. If we accept a major news site from every country then we risk getting overwhelmed with deaths including some that are perhaps of fairly limited international interest. One option would be to require at least two major news sites, from different countries and from countries that the person didn't live in or be involved in. However at the same time this risks getting very technical and opening up endless debates IMHO. N.B. bear in mind the article would still require a substanial update whatever we require Nil Einne 00:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

text: It's no good looking to news sites for guidance, they often grab hold of puff pieces and run with them. Criterion 5 offers "(b) the deceased was a key figure in their field of expertise, and died unexpectedly or tragically" So the timely passing of a notable person generally wont be listed. If they die in mid-tour, like James Brown, then they generally would be listed. Lady Bird Johnson, was neither an expert in any field nor died unexpectedly Also this is a very US centric event. --Monotonehell 03:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

text: That's too subjective on the "major news website for a reasonable time." I wouldn't agree if Anna Nicole Smith appeared just because CNN posted as their stop story for a while. --69.6.157.3 20:34, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They had her death on a BREAKING NEWS banner on cnn.com. Evil Monkey - Hello 00:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On the other hand, it wasn't mentioned with any prominence at all on any UK media (probably deep in the inside pages of broadsheets), and I had never heard of the woman, or of her death, until stumbling upon this.  News sources, even "major" ones, can be very parochial in their priorities, and Wikipedia should not give undue prominence to stories of interest in one country only. Kevin McE 19:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Well let's just take Smith as an example. She had to have been of some importance in American society. Just because she wasn't a politician or scientist doesn't mean she was not important. She was an icon in the entertainment industry and her loss was undeniably a historic event. I think we're mistaking "important" for "socially contributive." I think, in short, that if several news agencies did keep her story one of the top stories for some time, then her death does deserve to be noted. I think this goes for any other event, too. If it's important enough to be broadcast on the internet as the main story of several news agencies for several days, it might be a heads up that it's an important story or event. └Jared┘┌t┐  01:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You just hit the nail on its head. It's important for news agencies, not an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is not Wikinews. Wikinews was forked from Wikipedia, we shouldn't replicate what our sister project is doing. It subtracts from their purpose.  --Monotonehell 08:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criteria 5 

message: This is on the headlines everywhere, this should be put on Wiki frontpage as soon as possible!! 2007_Niigata_earthquake 11:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's being discussed since yesterday on the suggestions' page. The article isn't up to a standard where it can be highlighted on the main page as yet. Wikipedia isn't a newspaper, any articles placed on the mainpage need to be encyclopedic. --Monotonehell 12:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How about now? Isn't it good enough now? Even if Wiki ain't a newspaper, people do come here to get information about stuff like this. By putting it on the frontpage, we can make sure more editors flock to the article, and improve it to a wikipedia-worthy standard. Sir Poke 16:51, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text:  And how about Kashiwazaki-Kariwa Nuclear Power Plant#2007 Chūetsu offshore earthquake? --199.71.174.100 23:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[2007_Niigata_earthquake]] and nuclear leakage 

message: I see Wikinews have wikinews:TAM Linhas Aéreas plane crashes at São Paulo airport in Brazil. Do we have an article yet? Carcharoth 02:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone has pointed me to TAM Linhas Aéreas Flight 3054. Carcharoth 03:01, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is way too short at this point. I honestly believe it should be removed from ITN until we get something that could actually qualify as an article. -- tariqabjotu 03:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dunno when you looked at it but it's definitely not "way too short" now. --Golbez 06:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Based on the time stamp, I guess  Nil Einne 11:48, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Time stamp and history say 03:54 so my guess is probably more accurate, not that it makes that much differene Nil Einne 12:24, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Updated. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 17:56, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. BigNate37(T) 17:57, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brazilian plane crash 

message: I propose that we have more items on ITN than we currently do. Right now, the candidates page suggests we have 3 to 5. I can't recall the last time we only had 3, and well, as it stands now, there is a bunch of wasted space below the On This Day template that could be utilized by something; I suggest with ITN items. This can be accomplished by having a less strict criteria on what gets added. I'm just throwing the idea out there and seeing what others think. Pepsidrinka 02:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Part of the problem is that the Featured Article texts are getting longer and longer and longer. We usually need at least five items nowadays just to maintain the main page balance. AecisBrievenbus 02:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The other part of the problem is that DYK generally puts around 8 items. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 03:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you both are missing the point. It appears to me that Pepsidrinka is suggesting we be less stringent about criteria for inclusion so old events don't remain on ITN as we are starting to have quite a few ITN items. I'm not sure at this moment we have an issue finding news events with the oldest item being dated July 16. However, I can recall times when we have. -- tariqabjotu 03:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But then you also might have the problem of having to cut the number of items showing on "On this day..." So far, they generally have five or six items. If there are less, there will probably be more complaints about why certain items are not on the main page. Having a bunch of wasted space below the On This Day template does not happen everyday you know. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 03:33, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to have more items on ITN 

message: Not to be Mr. Pedantic, but I'm trying to think of the best way to phrase it or refer to it:
(a) The Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat has not deemed it the world's tallest building and will not do so until the structure is completed.
(b) The height of the building is unconfirmed (although there's really no reason for them to lie about it, so this is not important).
(c) Yes, the Burj Dubai has surpassed Taipei 101, but it has yet to pass the Sears Tower. This is a problem if we were to compare the highest non-structural elemental on a finished skyscraper to the highest structural element on an unfinished skyscraper, which does not seem unreasonable.
(d) High-rise building redirects to the skyscraper article, which, in its first sentence, says "A skyscraper is a very tall, continuously habitable building." It's not quite continuously habitable.
I know; I'm being pedantic. -- tariqabjotu 17:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I too was a bit worried that the structure hasn't yet been topped out. But I thought it too trivial. Perhaps it should be in DYK? --Monotonehell 06:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd consider it valid enough for ITN but I'm a skyscraper geek. Two future events will definitely be ITN-worthy: When it surpasses KVLY and/or Warsaw as the tallest structure on earth/tallest structure ever built, and when it is completed. --Golbez 19:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd considered this. IMHO, we probably shouldn't have mentioned it. Instead, we should have waited until it surparsed everything and put it then and also put it when it was launched/unveiled/whatever Nil Einne 13:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

text: But it doesn't fit the DYK criteria at least as the criteria stands now Nil Einne 13:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

text: There is a grand total of two sentences in the Burj Dubai article about being currently taller than Taipei 101 (which is what the ITN is about). How is this enough of an update for an ITN feature? When the building is completed, then it should go to ITN, but not now. Teemu08 19:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Burj Dubai]] 

message: This needs to be taken down. There are plenty of scandals in pro sports that are (rightfully) ignored by ITN. When a mention goes up, if it does, of the winner next Sunday maybe the greater than average number of scandals can be mentioned. That said the information is also factually inaccurate, as Rasmussen was withdrawn by the team for violating internal team rules, lying about his training wherebouts basically, and has not yet been even accused of having taken doping. if it stays up the blurb should reflect this. 90.25.0.187 22:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Copypasted from WP:ITN/C: This is notable because of the people involved (Rasmussen and Vinokourov), because of the event involved (the Tour de France), because of the sport involved (cycling) and because of the immense media attention on doping during this particular Tour. AecisBrievenbus 22:20, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

text: As Aecis has said, this is a very major scandal in a very major sport (that is already under a cloud in relation to the scandal), involving very major people. The latest time I remember us having a scandal in sports was the Italian football violence drama and that was very similar (major scandal which was already an issue for the sport, major sport, major people/country). If there are any other such major sport, major people, major scandal that arises which meets the other criteria (article updates, portal etc) then we should also post it. Indeed, I would argue this scandal is likely to be far more significant then the victory and if we were to choose one (not that we should) it would be the scandal not the eventual victory. I can't think of any other recent scandals except perhaps the Formula 1 spying allegation (not that major a scandal at the current time), Oracle vs Alinghi battle (which isn't really a scandal), the American footballer-dog fighting thing (which is hardly a major scandal and has little to do with the sport), the Chris Benoit thing (which again is hardly a major scandal and has little to do with the sport). If you can come up with some of these 'plenty of scandals' with similar characteristics to the two earlier ones I've mentioned, you'll likely find most would agree we should in fact have mentioned them (if we didn't) assuming the criteria are met. Nil Einne 07:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tour de France

message: The current image :Image:Rasmussen and Vinokourov.jpg is ... ugly. I think it is a combination of things --- the black border, the caption font that is completely different from the front of Wikipedia. Why not have no caption and just refer to them in the text as "blah (pictured left) and blah (pictured right)"? Evil Monkey - Hello 02:24, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought that "pictured left" and "pictured right" might confuse some readers (because both images are to the right of the text).  I used a free font to ensure full compatibility with the GFDL; you're welcome to suggest a better one.  I believe that the captions would look unusual without the border.  —David Levy 03:00, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The phrase "wearer of the yellow jersey" refers to Rasmussen's standing in the race (not to his clothing in the photograph).  —David Levy 03:00, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better image? 

message: I want to discuss this now so there's no argument when it happens.
Barry Bonds is about to break the career record for home runs in Major League Baseball. He has 754 home runs; the record, held by Hank Aaron since 1975. He hits about one home run every six days, but he could hit two tomorrow and break the record.
Ordinarily, we would not put sports milestones, other than championships, in ITN. But this case is truly an exception. Those who don't live in North America may not know just how gigantic-huge this is over here. It will be on the front page of every paper in the U.S., not only because the career home-run record is the biggest record in the stats-heavy world of North American sports, but because Bonds is such a controversial and divisive character. (Bonds has been widely accused of using steroids, and his trainer is in jail for refusing to testify to a grand jury.) This will be one of the biggest news stories -- not just sports stories -- of the year in America. -- Mwalcoff 02:57, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for bringing it up early; I think it should definitely be included. Then again, I am a U.S.-based baseball fan. Grandmasterka 04:06, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict) I believe you're exaggerating the greatness of this event. I'm a little uneasy about adding the item. If we have a slow news week, I might be okay with it. However, with the Tour de France concluding soon, I don't really believe we will need another sports item (especially one of relatively lesser international significance). -- tariqabjotu 04:17, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm inclined to agree that Mwalcoff is exaggerating the event's significance.  It will be a major occurrence in baseball and U.S. sports in general, but I seriously doubt that it will be widely regarded as "one of the biggest news stories -- not just sports stories -- of the year in America."  —David Levy 05:36, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there are 28,707 Google News hits on /"Barry Bonds"/. (As opposed to 4,980 on /"Alberto Condator"/, 3,728 on /"Tim Donaghy"/ and, believe it or not, only 28,397 on /"George W. Bush"/!) This is clearly not your run-of-the-mill sports story. At the very least, it is by far the biggest sports story of the year in North America, bigger than this year's Super Bowl, World Series or NBA Finals, each of which is or was on ITN. As a once-in-a-generation event, the breaking of the career home run record is bigger in its sphere than the results of the Tour de France are in its realm. As for the argument about it not being "international," which always comes up with American sports, it's not really a fair comparison -- the U.S. is one country, but it's a big country, with 300 million people. Europe is divided into itsy bitsy countries, so its easy for its sporting events to be "international." And anyway, baseball is of interest not only to Americans but to millions of Latin Americans and Asians. -- Mwalcoff 06:53, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, if anyone doubts how much the Bonds thing has intruded on the world of general news, check out The New York Times' web page on Bonds: . The Times is not known for its sports coverage, but even the Old Gray Lady has been writing about him almost every day. -- Mwalcoff 06:58, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

text: We hit a consensus on this kind of item some time ago, but I've lost the bookmark I made to it in the archives. This gist of it was only career long achievements should be included. That is, not a record that was set in one event, but as a consistent effort over a career. And only in top level international sports. So I guess this meets the first point, but the second is up for debate (as per usual with major US sports). --Monotonehell 07:12, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Include after Bonds surpasses (and not (05:10, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree -- home run 756 goes on ITN, not 755. -- Mwalcoff 01:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm Canadian. We only have the Jays. I don't think we're that much of a baseball country. It's still getting large amounts of press up here. It's one of the largest sports stories of the year, anyway. It's deifinetely getting more press here than the Tour de France did. --Plasma Twa 2 03:55, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coming up: [[Barry Bonds]]