Talk:Srebrenica massacre/Archive 7

message: This section is:
1. not sourced
2. quite partisan
3. I'm not sure there even is such a thing as "Srebrenica genocide denial/revisionism", isn't it just a label used on opponents?
I believe this section should be taken out, as the topic is already covered in the previous section.
Osli73 14:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That section is well sourced but you didn't read it. There is a source for a part that you removed: "The Myth Of Bratunac: A Blatant Numbers Game" IDC research about Serb propaganda. This is also confirmed in Naser Oric judgement. --Emir Arven 14:40, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see this as an act of denial of genocide and sneaky vandalism. --Emir Arven 14:40, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Osli, you removed the whole section. That shouldn't be done. It is not Wikipedian way. We can go through every sentence that you want to remove and discuss about it. The source about Bratunac is very important, because Bratunac is used in this story by Serb politicians, and other deniers as an argument for relativization of genocide that happened in Srebrenica. So its place is here. IDC presented its research and showed that Serb politicans manipulated with numbers. Manipulation is a kind of revisionism. --Emir Arven 19:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Large discrepancies in all these estimates are generally due to the inconsistent definitions of who can be considered victims of the war. Some research calculated only direct casualties of the military activity while other also calculated indirect casualties, such as those who died from harsh living conditions, hunger, cold, illnesses or other accidents indirectly caused by the war conditions. Original higher numbers were also used as many victims were listed twice or three times both in civilian and military columns as little or no communication and systematic coordination of these lists could take place in wartime conditions. Manipulation with numbers is today most often used by historical revisionist to change the character and the scope of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. However, most of above independent studies have not been accredited by either government involved in the conflict and there are no single official results that are acceptable to all sides.
I think something like this (granted that the number of people killed in Srebrenica is better documented) is what is needed for the Srebrenica massacre article. Also with regard to the Serb casualties section. Osli73 07:42, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You put false info in the article. Without source and proof. It is not accepted by all sides that large number of Serbs were killed between 92-95, neither by ICTY nor by IDC, just by Serb propaganda, and you said that you are not Serb, yes sure ordinary Swedish guy...If you want to write about Serbs casulates then write it in Bosnian War or similar articles, but don't spread propaganda. --Emir Arven 08:33, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is sad to see that you pretend to be a Swedish guy, but you are a Serb. --Emir Arven 10:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Emir, I'm sorry to have to say this, but your focus on and disbelief in my nationality is symptomatic of true nationalists. You really see the world in black and white, either with me or against me.Osli73 12:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't have to hide the fact that you are a Serb. You don't have to pretend to be a Swedish to make a point. I didn't focus on your nationality because you are a Serb, but because of your manipulations. --Emir Arven 15:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: False. Serbs are trying to present their military casualties in fights as "a part of the background to the genocide". --Emir Arven 10:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Emir, the reason the Naser Oric case (and its outcome) gained so much attention (despite him being a minor player) was precisely because some Serbs see it (and the killing of Serbs around Srebrenica 92-93) as a way to put the Srebrenica massacre into a greater context while Bosnian Muslims see it as a threat to their role as the only victims in the tragedy that was the Bosnian war. Please read the Transitions Online article I mentioned earlier.Osli73 12:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Killing the Serbs" around Srebrenica is propaganda, as it is showed in ICTY judgements. Are you talking about Serb soldiers or civilians? According to the judgement: "As for the destruction in the villages of Kravica, Siljkovici, Bjelovac, Fakovici and Sikiric, the judgment states that the prosecution failed to present convincing evidence that the Muslim forces were responsible for them, because the Serb forces used artillery in the fighting in those villages. In the case of the village of Bjelovac, they even used the warplanes." But Serbs claimed that this villages were destroyed by Bosniak foreces, as you do. --Emir Arven 15:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Because Carla del Ponte and Naser Orić judgement showed that Serb numbers are propaganda. --Emir Arven 10:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Emir, no neither CdP or the Naser Oric judgement said anything about the number of Serbs killed around Srebrenica (what source do you base this on, by the way). The number of Serbs killed around Srebrenica was not part of the indictment against Oric. Finally, you must not mix up history and legal process - just because someone isn't convicted in a court of law of for a specific crime doesn't mean that they, in the eyes of history, are not guilty or did not play a part in it. Slobodan Milosevic was never convicted of anything and even if he hadn't died prematurely it is not unlikely that he would have been acquitted on quite a few of the charges made against him. Did this / would that have made him any less complicit in what happened?Osli73 12:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes it said that seven people (Serb prisoners) were killed in police station during two years. I just showed you a part of his judgement. In its case, the prosecution tried to show that Oric was responsible for the destruction of about 50 Serb villages in the Bratunac-Srebrenica area in 1992 and 1993. Those acts are described in four counts of the indictment, and are qualified as violations of laws and customs of war. The prosecution claims that Oric, as the commander of the Srebrenica armed forces, is responsible for the "preparation, direction and implementation" of crimes alleged in the indictment, and for failing to prevent them or punish their perpetrators.  Prosecution based its case on documents that Serbs prepared for them. But the judgement was totally opposite. It showed that in number of villages Serb forces used artillery in the fighting in those villages. So you are talking about people killed in this fight? --Emir Arven 15:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: No it showed that Serbs lied about number of people killed (soldiers and civilians) as well as destroyed villages. They showed completely opposite picture than presented by Serbs. Serbs commited massacers in every town in eastern Bosnia between 92-95, Foča, Trebinje, Bileća, Višegrad, Rogatica, Vlasenica, Kalinovik, Bratunac etc. so we should include all these massacers as "a part of the background to the genocide". --Emir Arven 10:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Emir, again, the Naser Oric case did not prove anything regarding the number of Serbs killed. And, as I said above, the Serbs certainly saw the Bosniak attacks on Serbs around Srebrenica 92-93 as background to their attack on Srebrenica in 1995. The issue is also give quite a lot of space in the Dutch government report on the Srebrenica affair (see article external sources).Osli73 12:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it did. It destroyed Serb myth about 50 villages allegedly destroyed by Naser forces, and number of Serbs killed in Srebrenica. Serbs didn't see "Bosniak attacks on Serbs around Srebrenica as background to their attack" because Srebrenica was under the Serb siege and fire before that, Serbs just see this as an opportunity to justifay that horrible genocide, which was carefully planned and executed with participation of 20.000 Serb soldiers. As I said if you want to talk about casualties before Srebrenica genocide then we must explain about Višegrad massacres (just in one day Serb authorities in Višegrad gathered 70 Bosniak women and burned them in a house, before that they raped them), Bijeljina massacre, Foča massacre, Trebinje and Bileća massacres, Vlasenica massacre, Kalinovik massacre etc. There is more then 400 mass graves of Bosniak civilians found so far in Republika Srpska. That is a proof that no one can deny. So we should write it, as a background of Srebrenica genocide. Emir Arven 15:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Srebrenica genocide denial and revisionism 

message: As the article is quite long I think it would be helpful if some sort of info. box were added summarizing where, when and how many people were killed. Maybe even a map, if anyone has time/ability for that. Any takers?
Osli73 20:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Info. box on when, where and how many people were killed 

message: Dado, 
why have you added the NPOV dispute tag? [Wikipedia] defines NPOV as "In a neutral representation, the differing points of view are presented as such, not as facts." This is precisely what I am doing! 
I suspect you put the tag there simply because it goes against your own ideological conviction (Wikipedia warns that "For example, ideologues, when presented with an article that has exemplary neutrality (as per our policy), will consider the article biased precisely because it does not reflect their own bias enough.).
Maybe I should enter a NPOV dispute tag on the sections of the article which I feel are biased as well.
Osli73 22:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV dispute 

message: You can agree or disagree, it's up to you. However, we will not let you post already discredited Serbian information and present it as a fact in Srebrenica Massacre article. Although I salute your decision not to deny Srebrenica genocide, I must condemn you for spoiling the article with moral relativism and already discredited Serbian sources (e.g. the number of Serbs killed, adventures of accussed concentration camp raper and Serb lobbyist Gen. Mackenzie, etc). --Bosniak 01:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Final Notice to Osli73 

message: Read here: RELATIVISM OF JUSTICE: Thoughts on Noam Chomsky, NIOD Report, Dutch Government, U.N. & more... --Bosniak 01:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NIOD REPORT IS BIASED 

message: I have placed the article on protection due to never ending vandalism. We cannot allow people to delete factual statements if they don't like them, nor we can allow already discredited Serbian sources to be entered into the article.
--Bosniak 23:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Placing :Template:Sprotect on the article does not place it under protection. In fact, you cannot place an article under protection yourself, only administrators can do that. I suggest you read our protection policy for further information, including the steps to take to request protection. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 03:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

text: That's just silly, frankly - semi-protection only protects the article against editing by new and anonymous users. If you have a content dispute I suggest you work it out with the other editors. -- ChrisO 11:06, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Srebrenica Massacre Article Placed on Protection 

message: I noticed that there is a disagreement about whether the sentence that the Srebrenica massacre was the first legally established case of genocide in Europe. This is actually correct - nobody was prosecuted for genocide over the Holocaust, for the simple reason that the offence of genocide didn't exist in international law until 1948. The first convictions for genocide were in Rwanda in 1998, and Krstic was only the third person (and the first European) to be thus convicted. See Genocide Convention for more. -- ChrisO 11:06, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genocide 

message: You stated that this statement is not in reference to the ICTY: 
"By seeking to eliminate a part of the Bosnian Muslims, the Bosnian Serb forces committed genocide."
Yet, another time, I am proving you wrong, read here: 
http://www.un.org/icty/krstic/Appeal/judgement/krs-aj040419e.htm --Bosniak 20:56, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Osli73 is wrong, yet another time! 

message: Why was the article reverted and then protected? I have a long history on Wikipedia, I have offered to discuss my changes (but received no reply), explained the changes that I have made, and included plenty of reliable sources and references to the edits I have made.
So, please explain exactly what it is that you will not accept?
Osli73 21:14, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As you may have noticed, the article was never protected. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 11:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: As I see it, that statement is not important enough to be included in the lead section. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 11:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert and protection of the article 

message: The article is good, mainly because it contains a lot of information about the massacre. However, it has some faults as well, mainly relating to the tone in which it is written and that it, in some places, only present one of several common interpretations of events. I have focused on three areas where this is evident before:
# Introduction: the text talks about "up to 8,373 Bosniak males" when in fact the figure quoted is typically 7-8,000 and that includes missing. Also, the Holocaus was never legally defined as Genocide.
# Stuggle for Srebrenica: this section glosses over the effect which the Bosniak offensive 1992-93, including the killing of a large number of Serb civilians, had on the behavior of Serb forces in 1995. I provided several sources which stated that Serb losses during this period gave rise to feelings for revenge.
# Serb casualties around Srebrenica: this section only presents one study's findings on this issue instead of presenting the range of estimates which are out there (and which are quoted). I sources this from the ICTY Office of the Prosecutor's press brief regarding the Naser Oric trial. I also included the RDC finding. You also omit any text about the significance of these losses, which is what is at the root of the controversy - that Serbs feel their losses are being neglected while Bosniaks feel that discussions about Serb civilian losses somehow reduces their status as victims.
These are only three sections of the article which the Bosniak editors refuse to accept, even though I have provided plenty of reliable sources (ICTY, Dutch government reports, etc., compared to the natinalists blogs which are used by some as a source). Instead, these sources, which don't fit your view, are leballed as "vandalism" and "Serb lies". If you are not able to discuss this topic rationally, then maybe you should not be editing the article.
Please provide me with some comments.Osli73 16:02, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fairview360, holy wise fairness personified; Milosevic was a Socialist, do you remember? just tapping your brain for bugs... --Arsenio 23:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adjustments 

message: Some comments on the introduction:
:* Since the ICTY document states the range 7-8000, based on confirmed killed and missing, that is also the figure which should be used in the introduction
:* Srebrenica is the first legally defined case of Genocide in Europe, since the Holocaust was never legally defined as Genocide
:* We need a link to the actual ICTY judgment for the citation at the end of the introduction. The current reference is the ICTY judgment, but the link is to a Bosniak NGO in NYC
If you disagree with the above, please comment here, instead of just saying it is all lies. And, please, stay polite.
Cheers Osli73 08:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The introduction 

message: :* I have included sourced comments from the ICTY and the RDC in Sarajevo regarding the estimated number of Serbs civilians killed during this period
:* I have included statements from both the Dutch government NIOD report and Lewis MacKenzie, the UNPROFOR commander at the time, stating that revenge for Serb losses during this period (however large they actually were) was a major motive for the 1995 massacre.
:* I have previously (see above) provided a link to an article in the Journal of Conflict Studies outlining the Sarajevo governments smear campaign against him (which Bosniak is referring to).
:* The NIOD report was carried out by Dutch academics under the auspices of the Netherlands Instutute of War Documentation and has been often cited by both the prosecution and the defence in ICTY trials (of both Bosniaks and Serbs). It is also used in the section "1992 ethnic cleansing campaign" as a reference to the number of Bosniaks killed by Serb forces (Footnote 5). Calling it biased or pro-Serb simply because its presentation of events differs from what certain editors believe says more about these editors own bias than about the report. If this report is biased, we might as well take out most of the sources used in this article.
If you disagree with the above, please comment here, instead of just saying it is all lies. And, please, stay polite.
Cheers Osli73 08:26, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Struggle for Srebrenica

message: Same comments as for the "Struggle for Srebrenica section" but as some might have specific comments to this specific section, I will include them again:
:* I have included sourced comments from the ICTY and the RDC in Sarajevo regarding the estimated number of Serbs civilians killed during this period
:* I have included statements from both the Dutch government NIOD report and Lewis MacKenzie, the UNPROFOR commander at the time, stating that revenge for Serb losses during this period (however large they actually were) was a major motive for the 1995 massacre.
:* I have previously (see above) provided a link to an article in the Journal of Conflict Studies outlining the Sarajevo governments smear campaign against him (which Bosniak is referring to).
:* The NIOD report was carried out by Dutch academics under the auspices of the Netherlands Instutute of War Documentation and has been often cited by both the prosecution and the defence in ICTY trials (of both Bosniaks and Serbs). It is also used in the section "1992 ethnic cleansing campaign" as a reference to the number of Bosniaks killed by Serb forces (Footnote 5). Calling it biased or pro-Serb simply because its presentation of events differs from what certain editors believe says more about these editors own bias than about the report. If this report is biased, we might as well take out most of the sources used in this article.
If you disagree with the above, please comment here, instead of just saying it is all lies. And, please, stay polite.
Cheers Osli73 08:26, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversy about Serb casualties

message: Emir Arven,
I have a cople of comments to the edits you made (mainly erasing my previous edits):
:* The 7-8000 figure (missing and killed) is what is referred to in the ICTY documents in the reference
:* The preteen text is (a) sourced from an anonymous blog (the Srebrenica Genocide Blogspot) and (b) is not crucial information for the introduction, which should be a summary of the article.
:* Better to just use a neutral term like "offensive" with regards to the Bosniak raids in 1992 as "counter-offensive" is a value-loaded term. Also, if they were attacking Serb villages, couldn't that be seen as an offensive?
:* I removed a link which referred to an empty page. I entered the "citation needed" to remind editors that a new one was needed
:* The Srebrenica Genocide Blogspot is used as a sournce in for a lot of statements. This is a pro-Bosniak anonymous blog, it is not really a good souce in such a controversial topic
:* You seem to want to criticise the NIOD report. Yes, there is a mention that an academic opponent (he also wrote a book on the Srebrenica massacre), Jan Willem Honig "is critical of its length" and that there apparently is a factual error with a map that doesn't quite fit with the text. Also, the editors of the different parts of the report have made somewhat different judgements about what sources to use. However, in a 6,000 report made by several different editors, this is hardly something which calls for discrediting the report. That the Srebrenica Genocide Blogspot does so is neither surprising nor significant enough to mention in the article. The NIOD report has been used for a long time in the article to provide an estimate of the number of Bosniaks ethnically cleansed from Eastern Bosnia in the beginning of the war. Why is it, all of a sudden, not good enough?
:* MacKenzie, well, the Bosniak government launched a smear campaign against him which has been outlined in the Journal of Conflict Studies paper linked to above (see previous section).
As you appear completely unwilling to engage in any kind of discussion on these talk pages but seem to prefer to just make the edits you want without any comment other than "Serb lies" and "moral equivalence" then I will have to assume that you are driven by political bias rather than any academic interest.
Cheers,
Osli73 12:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emir Arven - your recent edits 

message: Bosniak,
Are you (one of) the editor(s) of the  Srebrenica Genocide blog? Just to set the record straight.
Osli73 22:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Srebrenica Genocide Blog 

message: I don't understand what you are trying to say. The article is cited to:
COPYRIGHT PACIFIC NEWS SERVICE
450 Mission Street, Room 506
San Francisco, CA 94105
415-243-4364
Date: 06/04/1993
The fact that someone posted it on geocities has nothing to do with the credibility of the article; this is original article with full copyright notice. It's over 13 years old and was published when internet was only barely beginning to be used.
What's the problem? Is the truth problem again? I would not be surprised if you banned me and all your opponents from wikipedia. Now, I see, we are not even allowed to use this article as a source, but our opponents are allowed to use Lewis Mackanzie's genocide denials as a source ? 
Don't you see double standard here? Bosniak 04:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hi ChrisO 

message: I believe Osli's latest edit to the introduction is an improvement. The figure of "7,000 to 8,000" is consistent with ICTY judgements and frankly more sensical than saying an "estimated" and then giving an exact number. The reference provided for the ICTY judgement is much better than a blog. The actual quote of "forty thousand" is better than paraphrasing.
I don't know where this figure of "7000 to 8000" comes from.  Any reference to a range the lower and upper limits of which both lie below the most recently accepted figures is clearly incorrect.  Opbeith 14:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Osli intro edits 

message: This article has a tendency to use a lot of very long direct quotes and citations. While this may not be a problem in itself, it is one of the reasons why the article has become so long. In most cases these could be summarized and referenced. 
So, I suggest that we review the quotes in the article with a view to summarizing them in text instead (see for example what Jitse Nielsen did with the MacKenzie text and quotes, which I think was good).
Looking forward to your thoughts.
Cheers Osli73 09:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Long quotes 

message: I just realized what you did in the "Struggle for Srebrenica" section. Sorry Osli, but the nature as well as the number of the Serb casualties is very much disputed. Trying to sidestep the fact merely goes to show your growingly apparent agenda. So does your removal of essentially the entire counterargument, with the reasoning you used to justify this being completely unfounded. That said, I'm removing the entire attempt to explain it there. The question of Serb casualties around Srebrenica is controversial, lengthily, and complicated enough that it cannot be adequately summarized in the "Struggle for Srebrenica" section. I will now go ahead and fix the mess you made of the latter section and add some useful information. Live Forever 15:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Licemjernost

message: Those with leftist agenda cannot be considered neutral observers due to their denial of genocide and open one-sidedness with Serbs and/or Milosevic, see Znet resource for example. When you mention "Bosniak sources", who are you referring to? Do you consider the International Tribunal a "Bosniak source"? Srebrenica massacre is heavily based on International Tribunal's rulling (e.g. Radislav Krstic judgement), and you are trying to destroy the article by inserting revisionist 'garbage' with the purpose of morally equivating victims with aggressors who committed genocide. The bottom line is: Alternative views do not matter, what matters is cold-harded facts from such sources as International Tribunal, Human Rights Watch, State-sponsored Research & Documentation Centre, International Association for Missing Persons etc. When it comes to editing this article in a "rational matter", you are the only one who rejects International Tribunal's version of the article and seeks Serbian (or pro-Serbian) version of the article. As you can see, you are not succeeding and your edits don't stay longer than couple of hours. People will not stand for your version of the article, because this is wikipedia and you cannot force people to accept your opinion and reject already established facts by the International Crimes Tribunal for Former Yugoslavia and other neutral credible sources. If you care so much about alternative revisionist views, why don't you go to Holocaust article and attempt to spread Nazi propaganda there? You think that Jews care about alternative revisionist denials? You think that Tutsis in Rwanda care about alternative revisionist denials? You think that Bosniaks care about alternative revisionist denials? We all care about the facts, cold hard neutral facts, not alternative leftist-revisionist views. Maybe wikipedia is not for you? You are not succeeding here, because you can't force people to accept your revisionist view of Srebrenica massacre. Bosniak 04:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Answer to Osli73 

message: EXPLAIN to me why do you keep wasting my changes and coorections because of some unrelated edit war with some other person(s) or something, wasting my time and sabotaging the article? For example, I add dotes on the end of sentence, or change raids into proper raids, or Dutch Bat to Dutchbat, but then you come along and ruin back everything. I told you once, STOP DOING THIS, won't you? --HanzoHattori 19:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Live Forever - what the? 

message: Bosniak, please do not engage in wholesale edits. Take it one at a time and be careful with references. For example, with your last wholesale edit, you deleted direct references to the ICTY and replaced them with indirect ones from websites like the Academy of BiH. Good people. Good organization. But the ICTY has greater credibility. 24.58.6.40 05:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bosniak 

message: Upon reading the Prosecutor vs Radislav Krstic judgement  it becomes apparent that not only have some of the section and subsection titles been copied directly from the ICTY, many parts of the text are also direct copies from that docuemnt. Examples are:
:* the entire text in Section 1.1 The conflict in eastern Bosnia is from para. 10 in the ICTY document
:* the text in the first paragraph of section 1.1.1 The 1992 ethnic cleansing campaign is from para. 12 in the ICTY document
:* most of the text in  section 1.1.2 Struggle for Srebrenica is from paras. 13-17 in the ICTY document
:* text in the section 1.2.2 Early 1995: the situation in the Srebrenica “safe area” deteriorates is from para. 26 in the ICTY document
There are plenty of other cases where text, and in some cases, entire paragraphs, have been plagiarised from the ICTY document. 
Wikipedia policy on Copyright violations is:
::"If some of the content of a page really is an infringement, then the infringing content should be removed, and a note to that effect should be made on the talk page, along with the original source. If the author's permission is obtained later, the text can be restored."
Instead of removing the texts which are copyright violations immediately (they are the best parts of the article, which, maybe, explains a few things), I suggest that the appropriate texts are rewritten. If not, they should be removed.
Regards Osli73 12:21, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plagiarism / Copyright violation (Prosecutor vs Radislav Krstic judgement) 

message: Hi Fairview,
Yes, Osli73 is vandalizing Srebrenica article. If you look at the history of his contributions, you will notice that he is obsessed with Srebrenica Massacre article Osli73 Contributions. By entering into discussion with him, you are violating basic principle of common sense - to stay away from unreasonable individuals. He takes a great pride in destroying the article, although he is not succeeding. Hopefully, wikipedia administrators will notice his behaviour and either suspend him, or ban him completely. His only purpose is to vandalize Srebrenica Massacre article, he has no other purpose here @ wikipedia. You should not try to reason with him, you are just wasting your time my friend. There will always be people who will vandalize wikipedia, and that's sad (but true). Bosniak 05:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bosniak, what you call vandalism I call trying to inject NPOV into an article that has been hijacked by a very partisan group. This article is not an extension of your Srebrenica Genocide Blog or about "remembering" or "honoring" the victims of the massacre. It is about writing an encyclopedic article. Focus on taking action on the Copyright violations instead.Osli73 07:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response to Fairview 

message: Hi. I have marked this article as disputed. Apparently there is some heated debate over certain facts, etc. Please outline changes on the talk page before edit warring. If this continues, the page can be protected and the appropriate users blocked for violations of WP:3RR. Thank you. --ZsinjTalk 16:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed! 

message: Bosoni, the challenge with the "up to 8,373" limit is that there are hundreds of names above and beyond that number of people who may have gone missing during the Srebrenica Massacre. Also, given that the 8,373 number includes only those names that have been confirmed by two independent sources, then it stands to reason that there are more. In other words, the number of people killed is probably more than 8,373. Please look at the introduction that includes both the 7,000 to 8,000 estimate and the 8,373 list of names. Fairview360 18:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  introduction 

message: Right Osli, just like you didn't mean to erase the names of the dead under the heading of it being a "minor" edit. Fairview360 17:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Osli states: I didn't mean to remove the picture

message: In major news organizations today reporting on the largest mass grave ever found in Bosnia, all from the Srebrenica massacre, the number 8000 was used to describe the approximate number killed. No mention of 7000 to 8000. Fairview360 23:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  approximately 8000 killed 

message: Three comments regarding copyright issues and this article:
:* User:Bosniak has claimed that UN judgments are part of the public domain. It sounds plausible, but could he (or someone else) pls find some information to back this up.
:* Even if the text is part of the public domain, it would be fitting to rewrite it, as it is currently directly copied from someone elses text.
:* What is the Copyright status of the photos?
Osli73 07:38, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright issues 

message: I also have to agree with Jitse. The term "Genocide on Bosniaks" is like explaining that war crimes were committed by crimes during the war, you know what I mean. It is well known who the victims of Srebrenica Genocide were. There is no reason to explain something that is self-explanatory. Bosniak 03:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genocide on Bosniaks - I agree with Jitse 

message: User: 195.229.242.88 states: "Why you are trying to skip truth? Even ICTY convict Naser Oric. Hiding truth is not right way of writining history" while editing in the following sentence: "Serbs blame Oric and his forces for killing about 2,000 Serb civilians from villages around Srebrenica during those raids, including the so-called "Bloody Christmas" massacre of January 1993, when dozens of women and children died in the village of Kravice."
Response: User 195.229.242.88 is invited to join discussion. Sentence is edited out with the response being: Republika Srpska primary sources state that in Kravica 35 soldiers and 11 civilians died. Please note the last sentence of the paragraph: "During this military activity in the months following January 1993, there were reports of civilian casualties on both sides." Fairview360 11:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kravica military and civilian deaths 

message: This section of the Srebrenica massacre article is comprised from selected text from the Finding of Facts section of the ICTY trial chamber "prosecution vs. Krstic" judgement along with bits and pieces of original text from wiki editors. 
In this section, there is a sentence "Although Serbs were attacking and killing Bosniak civilians in and around Srebrenica daily, to the Serbs it appeared that Bosnian forces in Srebrenica were using the “safe area” as a convenient base from which to launch counter-offensives against the VRS and that UNPROFOR was failing to take any action to prevent it." The second half of this sentence is from the ICTY findings of facts but the qualifier "although Serbs were attacking and killing Bosniak civilians in and around Srebrenica daily" was added by a wiki editor. Given that the article in whole clearly shows that the nationalist Serbs were engaged in an ethnic cleansing campaign which included killing or expelling Bosniaks on a daily basis and given that the focus of this section is the military violations of the safe area by both sides and therefore not directly relevant to the nationalist Serb ethnic cleansing, I propose the qualifier "although Serbs were attacking and killing Bosniak civilians in and around Srebrenica daily" be deleted.
Any suggestions? Fairview360 16:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Srebrenica a “safe area” section 

message: Hi 195.229.242.88, I wish you put your name or nickname. Let me introduce myself, my name is Daniel, I've been working on this article for quite some time. Apart from this article being vandalized by pro-Serb left-apologists, we had no any major difficulties in revising this article and updating it with facts, such as the fact that 8,106 Bosniaks were killed by Serb forces in Srebrenica. Naser Oric was convicted for failing to discipline men under his command who killed 5 Serb captives. I am not defending Oric, nor am I a big fan of Oric, but nowhere does it say that he killed these 5 Serb captives in Srebrenica. All we can agree on is that he was convicted by the ICTY for failing to discipline men under his command which resulted in killings of 5 Serb captives. That's as far as ICTY goes. Kravica was in fact a military base, just as other Serb villages around Srebrenica were military bases. These villages were used to pound Srebrenica with artillery attacks and prevent food and humanitarian convoys into the enclave, and I spoke about this with at least 4 survivors. While Bosniak side sufficienty demilitarized for UN to issue press release saying that demilitarization process is success, Serb side never demilitarized around Srebrenica - they adamantly refused to honor their part of agreement. Serbs never demilitarized, that's the fact. The least we need is a genocide denial. As a Serbian, you can do honorable thing and publicly accept the fact that Serb forces indeed did commit a genocide in Srebrenica. There is no point in denying this fact. You should condemn genocide of Bosniaks in Srebrenica, just as I condemn genocide of Serbs in Jasenovac. It's simple as that. Srebrenica Massacre article is not about Naser Oric who shamefully run away from the enclave and left his people to fend for themselves. This is not about him, nor is this about Slobodan Milosevic, Radovan Karadzic, Ratko Mladic and such. This article is also  not about Gen. Lewis Mackenzie (alleged camp rapist), and similar left-apologists and genocide deniers. This article is about the victims of the worst genocide since the WW2/Holocaust; this is about the first legally recognized genocide in Europe since the fall of Adolf Hitler; this is about 8,000+ innocent victims and many more of their families who grieve for them even today. Hope you understand and put things into perspective. I recognize your victims in Jasenovac, do you recognize my victims of Srebrenica? Bosniak 01:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My Response to 195.229.242.88