Talk:Child sexual abuse/Archive 2

message: There is so much material on international child sexual abuse that I think it'll be easy to make the page much, much better from this point of view. Places to start are here, here, here, here...etc! DanB DanD 01:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Globalize tag 

message: It looks like we're starting up a little revert skirmish over the definition in the summary paragraph. However, I think both versions are bad: I don't think CSA is defined either popularly, legally, or medically in terms of the age of consent, so I think that whole debate is out of place. The law uses different words entirely like "statutory rape" or "corruption of a minor" or "lewd conduct" -- "abuse" is a word from psychology, and using the legal terminology of age of consent is muddying.
Here's what the APA says. The bit I've bolded is the bit they highlight in a pull-quote.
:What is Child Sexual Abuse? 
:There is no universal definition of child sexual abuse. However, a central characteristic of any abuse is the dominant position of an adult that allows him or her to force or coerce a child into sexual activity. Child sexual abuse may include [list of acts omitted]. Child sexual abuse is not solely restricted to physical contact; such abuse could include noncontact abuse, such as exposure, voyeurism, and child pornography. Abuse by peers also occurs.
So, I don't see why the phrase "age of consent" is in the first paragraph at all. The question according to the APA is the adult's position of power, which is unaffected by whether the kid is over the age of consent or not--your high school principal has the same position of dominance whether the local AoC is 14 or 16.
DanB DanD 23:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Generally the age is 18 in cases where the older partner is in a position of authority regardless of what it is in other cases.  But that aside, we have to come to a conclusion about whether we are going to adopt a legal or medical definition and be consistent throughout the article. St. Jimmy 04:40, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition

message: Dan, I would argue that the cases you listed simply mean the age of consent changes in a given place according to circumstances, but I won't argue that.  I'll endorse something like the current version (defining CSA seperately from the age of consent) as long as it states EXPLICITLY that underage sex is not necessarily CSA, and vice versa. St. Jimmy 15:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know how you would state that succintly without being misleading - in some jurisdictions (check out the Idaho penal code!) the overlap is exact. And as the page says, sex between adults and young children (as each culture defines those categories) is considered abuse everywhere. But go ahead and try out some language. DanB†DanD 16:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On what basis is the overlap exact in Idaho?  Do you mean that the sexual abuse law makes no specific reference to age, but only to 'abuse of power' or whatever your side's preferred catchphrase is? St. Jimmy 05:47, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cases not really exemplary

message: I think this page needs archiving, and am more than willing to do it. It's reached the hellishly long 100kb stage, where you really can't find anything anymore by scrolling through it, has 30-some subheadings, and is 22 pages when printed. If we archived everything that has been inactive since July, that would trim 31 sub-headings, drastically reducing the talk page length. Comments? --tjstrf 05:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I did that, and it's still too long. Oh well, I guess I'm partly at fault for that, due to my definition of liberalism essay. --tjstrf 19:55, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page archive? 

message: * It's inaccurate that "sex between a adult and a minor" normally defines abuse, as even Jimmy has pointed out to you
* It's inaccurate that exceptions to this are always defined by age or by difference in age - they are often determined by type of sex (penetrative/non-penetrative/etc.) or by type of relationship (custodial/non-custodial/marriage) or by a court's judgement of exploitation or coercion.
* To place a idea in the lead paragraph is to treat it as if it has broad acceptance and is part of the consensus definition of the article's subject. Just saying "It's controversial" does not change this - it implies that mainstream legal and psych circles are divided on the question, which is even more misleading.
* "Young child" is not equivalent to "minor" or to "person under the age of consent," so if you want to change it, you can't just plug one of those terms into my sentence because the sentence will become nonsensical. You're right that "young child" has no single global definition, but then no more does "minor." Both are common, easily grasped concepts, and both are linked to pages that explore what they mean in various cultures.
* It is just peculiar that you keep calling child abuse laws "western." Please enlighten me by identifying the non-western, pro-sex-with-children Shangri La that you are thinking of each time you type this.
* You've made the same changes a few times now, and I've responded to them a few times. Unless you get some new ideas, from here on in it's just going to be straightup reverts.
* Tjstrf: God yes, please archive all this nonsense! DanB†DanD 18:54, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Neural

message: I suggest that the articles on incest and pedophilia be modelled on the way that this one has been written and structured. This article is not only NPOV in how it covers individual points, but neutral in what it actually covers. I have made three changes, available here, to make the article clearer. Otherwise, I suggest that an article on Intergenerational sex be written. This would be a good place to describe adult - minor sex out of it's legal context, along with other relationships that may be considered taboo, or acceptable. --Jim Burton 03:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Model Article