Talk:Alcoholism/Archive 1

message: Can I suggest a book for inclusion under "Further Reading"?
It is:
How to be Free of Alcoholism, Cancer and Many Other Diseases; A First Hand Report and Discussion in Simple Layman's Terms. Northern Lights Enterprises, Norfolk, Nebraska, November 2006 
In a nut shell, it is about the use of Low Dose Naltrexone to stimulate endorphin production which then has a pronounced effect on alcohol craving. 
Also, there is an article about a unique use of Low dose Naltrexone (LDN) in Wikipedia that you would likely find very interesting and informative.
LeroysLeroys
For quite some time, the Alcoholism entry has provided out of date or incorrect information. I'm in the process of rewriting it to meet contemporary scientific standards for the disease. I welcome external review and discussion. 
-- Stuart Gitlow MD (Chief, Annenberg Physician Training Program in Addictive Disease, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, NYC)
::Thanks for your contributions so far.  You may be interested in creating a user account.  Some of the benefits are discussed at this page: Wikipedia:Why_create_an_account%3F Osmodiar 03:30, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It greatly reduces the chances people will revert your changes, for one thing. :-) Ronabop 03:42, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: rightoDrgitlow 19:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page Rebuild

message: Drugs possibly involving lithium used to prevent withdrawal symptoms? Cite?
Is there anything on Wikipedia on alohol poisoning? I can't find it if there is. Please see the deaths site I added at the bottom of this, thanks, The Fellowship of the Troll 06:42, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requests for evidence of specific claims 

message: This section seems rather vague to me, with no citings.  And the relaionship to gambling  - I can't find the words.
:There is a lot of addition research. It just hasn't reached this article, and it's not exactly my specialty. The relationship with gambling is obvious. You yourself suggested above that the addiction is perpetuated by the rush of drunkenness (rather tentative in my view). The thrill from gambling, which becomes equally compulsory, may be the same maintaining stimulus. Addiction research frequently compares gambling and alcoholism, so your disbelief may be misplaced. JFW | T@lk 14:19, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biological Cause 

message: The contents of the article Alcohol dependence should probably be merged in here (then it should be redirected here) Andrewferrier 00:23, 2004 Dec 15 (UTC)
I would think this needs a section about the term "dry drunk" in order to be complete.  I would write it myself, but unfortunately I'm no good at writing.  So it remains a suggestion.
Input junkie 02:51, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Dry Drunk is an Alcoholics Anonymous premise, which is not universally accepted. It is generally used by people who believe you can only be "recovering" if you actually follow the "steps", even though this has no higher a success rate than quitting on one's own. Any reference to it in the article should have clear caveats about this. Kaz 15:51, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't believe that that last sentence is true, either: AA literature does say that something drastic like a "spiritual awakening", or a "psychic change", is required, in order for the "true" alcoholic to recover. According to the literature, the Steps are a way to achieve that. AA, per se, isn't interested in claiming to be the ONLY solution, although you may meet individual AA people who have such zealotous attitudes. Such people are human, and don't represent AA as a whole. Beanluc 23:43, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alcohol dependence article 

message: Could there be an actual description of the symptoms of alcoholism rather than just references elsewhere? Wikipedia should not be a medical encyclopedia, but this article discusses everything but the condition itself.
This would be useful for novelists (if anyone wishes to do Medicine for Fiction) and others. See The Pale Horse for a fictional work which has led to (occasonal) diagnosis of a certain type of poisoning.
:Many descriptions of symptoms and how a person might be able to identify their alcoholism have been presented in this article.  Does this satisfy the questioner's suggestion, or were you looking for something further?  Mythobeast 18:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestion to better describe the symptoms of Alcoholism

message: :Today, alcohol abuse and alcoholism are a major public health problem in North America, costing that region's inhabitants $170 billion annually.
This quote has no citation, anyone know where it came from?  When doing estimates of damage we need to know the source, and also the methodology used to arrive at such a number, and the costs that were taken to account and the costs that were not (e.g. did it include absenteeism, long term liver care, emotional damange and the cost of therapy to children of alcoholics, etc. etc. etc.) --ShaunMacPherson 22:49, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Identifying the source of the $170B social cost of alcoholism 

message: Why is there no global description of alcoholism? "I am of the understanding" that it is a major problem in Russia, and among certain groups of the population generally (owners of bars/pubs etc) but from this article it would only appear to be an issue in America.
There needs to be more description of what the disease is.
212.85.6.26 16:23, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Alcoholism and the rest of the world

message: An anonymous listed this article for cleanup. It looks pretty clean to me, so I removed the tag. What the article needs is NPOV, CITE and some tightening, but cleanup is too harsh a judgement. JFW | T@lk 12:44, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of the Cleanup tag from this article 

message: I was recently asked (in my capacity as a lapsed biologist) about the alcohol tolerance of different populations over the world.  I half-remembered something about genetic variation around the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase, but can't find anything in the WP to support or refute this.  I also half-remember something about humans being special anyway in their enhanced ability to deal with alcohol relative to other animals (which could be attributed to millenia of brewing alcohol, and accompanying evolutionary change).  Could anyone add to this?  Either way it might be worth amending the article.  Thanks in advance.  Cheers, --Plumbago 13:19, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought this was due to polymorphisms in alcohol dehydrogenase. It is actually the absence of one of the isoforms, see . After my exams I'll have a look. JFW | T@lk 14:00, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alcohol tolerance between populations 

message: The estimated cost of alcohol abuse and dependence reported in this article has been subjected to serious criticisms as inaccurate and inflated. See, for example, Gene Ford's "Alcohol Abuse: The Economic Costs" . I think the estimate needs to be qualified to reflect this reality.David Justin 16:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Costs of Alcohol Abuse & Dependence

message: The question of whether alcohol does more harm than good is truly a point of view issue, and should not be presented in this article.  That said, this article isn't about alcohol, but is instead about alcoholism.  While I can see someone putting forth an argument about alcohol being beneficial, I would challenge anyone to put forth an argument that the uncontrollable consumption of alcohol is beneficial.  While I agree that any judgement on alcohol itself should be removed, you can't address the topic of alcoholism without mentioning why the uncontrolled drinking of alcohol is a problem.
Unless someone can present an argument about why alcoholism might be beneficial, I'm going to remove this chunk of commentary to clean up this page. Mythobeast 17:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-Alcohol bias in this article 

message: A potentially useful resource (quite comprehensive) is Room R, Babor T, Rehm J. Alcohol and public health. Lancet 2005;365(9458):519-30. . JFW | T@lk 12:45, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alcohol and public health 

message: Advocate of do it yourself Faradism / Faradic Aversion Therapy.<BR>
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/FARADISM<BR>
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/MinusOneFaradicMentalSensingExtinction<BR>
[Links that appear to be inappropriate to this page moved by User:Sethmahoney]<BR>
-Faradism 09:53, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Faradism??????

message: Has this link been proven? If so please supply references. If not , please delete this statement--Light current 02:54, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alcoholism and hypertension 

message: This discussion is interesting but somewhat misguided. The disease "alcoholism" or "alcohol dependence" is not equivalent to alcohol intake or use. As Mr. Christopher points out, many people who drink problematically quit doing so without treatment. That may be true, but MOST people with alcoholism cannot. That, in fact, is one of the differentiating features between problematic use and the disease. We're not talking about alcohol use in this article, nor are we talking about problematic use; we're talking about the disease of alcoholism as defined by the medical community. That's an entirely different thing. Drgitlow 02:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Defining "alcoholism" as a disease and actually proving such a disease exists are two completely different things, now aren't they? The medical community has yet to provide conclusive evidence such a "disease" exists, yet all the so-called "experts" (whose livelyhoods depend on this myth) insist such a disease exists yet have so far failed to prove it.  Let's treat the Wiki readers with a bit more respect. Mr Christopher 16:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Effects

message: There is no diagnosis for "alcoholism" and the AMA defines it as a disease but that does not mean it can be diagnosed.  The alcohol related diagnosis are for things like "alcohol dependence" etc, but not for "alcoholism".  This should be clarified otherwise we are perpetuating the myth that the so called disease of alcoholism is a proven fact.  It is not.  Currently the disease of alcoholism is a popular belief for which there is no compelling medical or scientific evidence.  Mr Christopher 21:46, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When a physician diagnoses a patient with juvenile diabetes, that's the same as insulin-dependent diabetes, which is the same as Type I Diabetes. All are names of the same disease, despite the names being used by people more or less depending upon what year we're talking about. Alcoholism = Alcohol Dependence = Alcohol Addiction. All are referring to the same disease. Drgitlow 21:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Diagnosis section

message: To clarify some of the points raised in this discussion I would like to argue in favour of the proposition that Alcoholism is a nutritional disease. The nutritional aspects need to be treated before any psychotherapy.
Quote:
"Alcohol addiction occurs in all types of hypoglycemic diseases. Most interestingly, when zinc deficiency is present (type 6 Disease), the individual's response to alcohol may in fact be quite different to normal individuals, in as much as an 'energy burst' may be experienced soon after alcohol consumption. This is because in zinc deficient people, alcohol metabolism bypasses Pyruvate to form Acetaldehyde with rapid energy output. In the conversion of Glucose via Pyruvate to Acetyl-CoA, zinc is a necessary coenzyme. In people with zinc deficiency, Alcohol metabolises to Acetaldehyde and subsequently to AcetylCoA and does not require zinc as a coenzyme. This is an energy-releasing step and accounts for an energy burst experienced by zinc deficient individuals. The addition to alcohol may be explained not necessarily in terms of enjoying being in a drunken stupor, but more in terms of enjoying the rapid energy burst that alcohol affords them."
*Samra, George(2004), THE HYPOGLYCEMIC CONNECTION II, One Step Allergies, Sydney Page 100.
Alcoholism is one of the symptoms of hypoglycemia.
Conquering Anxiety, Depression and Fatigue Without Drugs - the Role of Hypoglycemia by Professor Joel H. Levitt
The hypoglycemic condition can be tested with the four hour Medical Test for Hypoglycemia as designed by Dr George Samra. We found that most alcoholics were found to be hypoglycemic, as well as people with other forms of mental illness.
Other sources:
Hypoglycemia and Alcoholism
Sugar can lead to Alcoholism (Abrahamson, E. and Peget, A.. Body, Mind and Sugar. (New York: Avon,1977.)
Here are some studies associating alcoholism with disturbed sugar metabolism.
References:
*Jones,K.L.,Shainberg,L.W.,&Byer,C.O.(1969), DRUGS AND ALCOHOL, Harper & Row, Pubs,N.Y.
*Poulos,C.J.,Stoddard,D. & Carron,K.(1976), ALCOHOLISM, STRESS AND HYPOGLYCEMIA, Davis Publishing;Davis Cal.
*Smith R.F.(1978), "Status rep. conc. the use of megadose nicotinic acid in alcoholics", J.OF ORTHOMOLECULAR PSYCHIATRY,7.1.,52-55
*Werbach,M.R.(1991), NUTRITIONAL INFLUENCES ON MENTAL ILLNESS, A Sourcebook of Clinical Research, Third Line Pres, Inc.Tarzana. Cal. Chapter on Alcoholism pages 18 - 47
*Murray, MT & Pizzorno KJ.(1990), ENCYCLOPAEDIA OF NATURAL MEDICINE, Optima Macdonald & Co (pub) Ltd Chapter on Alcoholism pages 118-127
*Pearson,D. & Shaw,S.(1982), LIFE EXTENSION; A Practical Approach, Warner Books,NY pages 267-283
Alcohol Withdrawal
My own article:
*Alcoholism is a Treatable Disease
And my book:
*Getting off the Hook
This information can be used in any way you like. Jurplesman 10:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This seems to indicate that alcoholism can be brought on by nutritional diseases and sugar imbalance diseases.  It doesn't specifically identify alcoholism itself as a disease.  Also, alcoholism can cause diseases, like cirrhosis of the liver, but again that doesn't make alcoholism itself a disease any more than grabbing a hot iron makes muscular contraction a disease. Mythobeast 22:11, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So, if you have this disease of alcoholism you should not want or expect any proof of it, just trust your local board certified MD whose livelyhood depends on the popular acceptance of this myth/unproven theory?  In view of the fact that not a single person on planet earth has ever proven such a disease exists your comments are frightening to say the least.  Mr Christopher 16:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You make an excellent point regarding the "proof." Here would be the typical proof given to an alcoholic: "You've lost your spouse, your finances, and your health. You are now living on the street despite your educational background, you've been fired from your last five jobs due to coming in drunk, and now you're here because your remaining family has dragged you here." Is there anyone who would disagree that something is wrong with this patient? If you're found to have Major Depression, or Attention-Deficit Disorder, or Generalized Anxiety Disorder, there is also no formal "proof," but the presence of the disease is fairly obvious within a few minutes of the initial examination. Similarly, when there is formal proof, how do you know what's wrong? For example, your doctor tells you that your blood pressure is high - he measured it, so he has to be right - and yet, what does that mean. You STILL don't know what's wrong. WHY is your blood pressure high? We don't know. Genetics, environment, stress, substance use...all play a role, but whether proof is there or not, here's the bottom line: Absolutely I trust my local board certified MD. Just as I trust a roofer to tell me when shingles need to be replaced (I don't know squat about roofing) or a plumber to tell me when my pipes need to be repaired (all I know is that there's water on the floor), that's what experts are for! I could tell you in a few thousand words why alcoholism is a disease, but I'm curious as to why you think it isn't. You haven't said.Drgitlow 21:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alcoholism is primarily a disease

message: I think one thing we can all agree on is this article needs some serious fine tuning.  There are numerous instances of POV/bias/folklore.  I propose we handle it one section at a time starting from the top and moving our way down.  I have already voiced concerns about this Wiki article portraying alcoholism as a disease.  Unless someone is going to step up to the plate and show conclusive scientific proof that this is a biological disease then we should remove that claim from the definition and avoid describing it as a disease. We are supposed to portray a NPOV and assertions should be supported with verifiable evidence.  As I mentioned above I am giving the last editor of that section a chance to substantiate their claims.  Otherwise I'll post some of my ideas for cleaning up that section. After we get that one cleaned up we should move on to the next. I'm open to ideas.  We might also consider setting up an archive page top move some of the Talk discussions that are no longer pressing to free up some space here and make the discussion of improving the article as little more organized  Mr Christopher 02:11, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Amusingly enough, much of the content on this very Talk page has about the "disease" discussion. Since there isn't a clear consensus on the disease question, we have to follow wikipedia guidelines, and rather than state 'X is Y', we need to phrase such matters as 'Z states that X is Y'. So, for Peele et. al., we can state their perspective(s) and definition(s), for NIAAA et. al.,   we can state their perspective(s) and definition(s), but as soon as we claim that alcoholism either is, or isn't, a disease, we are not longer writing from a NPOV on the debate... we would be taking sides. Ronabop 06:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. Mr Christopher 14:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed Clean Up Strategy

message: I've found 5 articles, with a total of something like 1,000 secondary references, documenting and supporting the biological component -- notice, I did not say disease -- perspective.  Each article makes note that the biological component is not the only factor.  I need to read these, and digest.  In the meantime, leave the  tag where it is, and I will stick something reasonable (i.e., a reference that is written at a popular level -- some of those psycho-genetics journals are a real mind bender...sheesh...) in there tonight.  Cheers! --Sadhaka 13:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, long day...I'll enter that citation after I leave the clinic this afternoon. --Sadhaka 11:27, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evidentiary support for biological component 

message: Although this article still has a clear AA ideological oriention or bias, it doesn't seem sufficiently strong as to warrant tagging it with an NPOV tag.David Justin 03:06, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bias

message: By “A.A. counselors” I mean those who are licensed or certified professionals who work at A.A. inspired treatments centers.  
Alcoholism/chemical dependency and chemical dependency research is a multi-billion dollar industry whose existence is predicated on the publics acceptance of the so-called “disease model”.   There is a huge financial stake in convincing the public that alcoholism is a proven disease.  
Since the 1950’s hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent on trying to discover or prove alcoholism is a biological disease.  Thousands of articles and research papers have been written (some good and some border on idiotic) on the subject yet the discovery of any biological disease (including an “alcoholic gene”) has yet to be made.  
On the other hand, Diabetes is a testable disease for which there is a medical diagnosis.  One can have diabetes, one does not have alcoholism.  As I have repeatedly said, there is no test to determine if one has alcoholism nor is there a medical diagnosis called alcoholism.  
One of the A.A. counselors said they were going to have their colleagues review the article.  I think that is a great idea.  But you could stack every A.A. counselor and all their degrees upon one another and that will still not prove alcoholism is a disease.  Better yet, why not contact the AMA and get their opinion?
I have written the AMA more than once on the subject and asked them to direct me to the article or research where alcoholism was discovered.  I have asked for the research that proves alcoholism is genetic, or that alcoholism is hereditary or anything that proves alcoholism is a biological disease.  What I got was laced with terms such as “promising”, “soon”, “suggestive.”  But when cornered the AMA will admit no smoking gun exists.  
I encourage the resident A.A. counselors here to have a similar discussion with the AMA. And see for themselves how unsupportable the idea that alcoholism is a biological disease.  And the attempt to split hairs or confuse matters with “biological component” is noted.  Excessive drinking can cause cirrhosis of the liver, this does not mean alcoholism is a biological component, it means excessive drinking can cause cirrhosis of the liver.  And keep in mind alcohol is a mood altering substance and take in large quantities is a toxin.  The fact that a mood altering agent affects some people differently than others does not suggest a disease is present.
Because I recognize these verifiable facts and continue to object to this article being treated as a treatment pamphlet for an A.A. treatment center and, I continue to point out the verifiable fact that this so-called “disease” has yet to be discovered or proven, two A.A. counselors here have said or implied I am a “sociopath”, “child”, and “stalker”.  This is not surprising to me, I have experienced this hundreds of times in both professional and social circles so it is to be expected.  If I had a dollar for every A.A. counselor who has made similar personal attacks for pointing out the lack of conclusive scientific evidence of a biological disease called alcoholism I’d have retired a long time ago.  The real tragedy occurs when the person with an alcohol problem seeks help yet refuses to go along with the disease myth.
In A.A. treatment centers, anyone who does not accept the “disease” of alcoholism is seen as being unscientific or in denial or resistant to treatment.  I have witnessed this hundreds of times.  A person with a real alcohol problem seeks counseling or treatment  and there mere presence indicates they recognize a problem exists and want help but this is not enough for the typical A.A. counselor/treatment center.  No, the client/patient must adopt the disease myth.  A treatment plan is put together and a part of that plan is for the alcohol abusing person to “accept” they have a “disease”.  If /when the patient/client rejects or questions the unproven assertion he or she has a disease they are deemed “in denial” or “resistant to treatment” or some other such nonsense and their refusal to accept this “disease” becomes a point of contention in their treatment plan.  The family “education” component usually includes teaching them that “daddy drinks because he has a disease” so the whole family is expected to buy into this unproven disease.
 
I have witnessed A.A. counselors call the patient/client’s employer, spouse, EAP, probation officer, and even their own insurance company, and tell them that the patient/client is being non-compliant simply because they refuse to accept this disease on blind faith.  A Kafka like horror show materializes for the patient/client as an ideological black mail scheme unfolds.  Sadly the A.A. counselor fails to recognize that people have been overcoming alcohol problems for thousands of years prior to A.A. and the disease theory yet they would have you believe that unless you accept you have this disease you are flirting with relapse.
This obviously brings up uncomfortable ethical concerns and the best thing the thinking patient/client can do is simply go along with their handlers and pretend they believe they have this unproven disease, or better yet find help that does not include disease indoctrination..  
So the fact that I am being characterized as a sociopath, child and stalker by two A.A. counselors comes as no surprise.  And it is not offensive to me in the least. It’s kind of comical actually.
Alcoholism is not a proven disease nor is there a diagnosis for it so this is a not a medical or clinical article.  And of course the article would be incomplete without the disease theory and its use in clinical settings,  but disease theories and the fact that many chemical dependency professionals call/define it an illness, disease, etc. belongs in the disease section and not the opening definitional paragraph.  That paragraph still needs some of the POV removed.
The “we need experts to help with this article” is probably incorrect.  Both A.A. counselors have already stated they have lots of degrees and decades working in the chemical dependency field.  I refuse to get in a “who has the most degrees” or “who has worked in the field longer” game.  I think we need less self-described "experts" and more people with common encyclopedia editorial sense.  And I am all in favor of getting admins, peer reviewers, whatever to help improve this article and avoid POV.  But keep in mind  I do not plan on being “cowed” or going away anytime soon.  As long as A.A. counselors try and use this Wiki article as a means of furthering their ideology and promoting unproven diseases I will be here to object to it.  This could be a great article but until we can put a lid on evangelizing the disease theory any attempts to imrpove it are likely to remain contentious.  Cheers! Mr Christopher 17:25, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Trying to reason with A.A. counselors