Talk:Yusuf Estes

message: The previous versions of this encyclopaedia article were not of good quality, therefore I have taken the necessary measures to improve it, hopefully turning into a more encyclopaedic and accurate piece. If anyone disagrees or is not content with this new version, please contact me first or kindly add the respective comment into this discussion-talk page, so that we can correspond our ideas accordingly. Below are other biographies credited and perhaps even copyright to other individuals. Thanks - Xaxerian, 31st January 2005, 8 GMT.
: The disputed tag has been removed, but this article still reads as if it were written by a public relations manager for Yusuf Estes. It is fawning and fulsome. I will work on it when I have time. In the meantime, I'll add the disputed tag. Zora 09:24, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  An improved and comprehensive clean-up 

message: There is no chief editor. I'm certainly not one. I'm not even an admin. Sometimes I can convince people to do things my way and sometimes I can't. Zora 13:02, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not a chief editor 

message: I find it hard to believe that someone is actually criticising this warm and friendly man, who unlike many other webmasters treats other religions with equal respect,and helps bridge different communitites together. But Sheikh Yusuf is only 14 years as a muslim, and he himself has said that he is still learning. Perhaps he is trying to spread Islam as much as he can before his time runs out(he's pretty old).Spreading Faith, in Islam is an obligation. Well, no one knows the truth. But as far as I have understood, Yusuf Estes doing this for money is utter nonsense. The man is dedicated. I have been to his lectures, And the show went on till 11 pm. And the same went on for 2 weeks. And he does the same in different parts of the world, sprecifically in USA. Judging from his actions and commitment, I declare that He can't be a fake. So it's wise not to slander someone, without knowing much about that person.
"I find some of opinions expressed here about Yusuf Estes prejudiced. I mean the idea that it'll be asked whether Mr Estes went to work on his page is not required and the speculation probably stems from dislike of him. I would ask his detractors to bring up sources and links to criticisms instead of these childish ad hominem attacks. Also, provide citations that it is always Salafis who disagree with Sufis. Read Yusuf Estes' viewpoint grounded in the Islamic teachings about groups:  http://www.islamtomorrow.com/groups/. We must agree to disagree instead of slandering him. He is a well read teacher of Islam. What does the original poster mean by: 'Is he ashamed of his past life? Someone who professes to lead others to religion should be truthful and humble, not a self-promoting PR flack.' This is pure slander and outside the rules of wikipedia."   Peace2u
How does that work?  If a Muslim man converts to Christianity then he gets a death penalty, but when a Christian man converts to Islam then it is all good?  Isn't it a little discirminatory towards Christianity?  Norum 04:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism towards Estes?

message: I found some websites misquoting him regarding various groups of Muslims, apparently using materials from his site to promote their own understandings(?) while adding to and subtracting from his actual commentary. Having compared his statements from his speeches and lectures online, it is clear he does not hold hardline views against these groups.
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Shaykh Yusus Estes criticizes all groups, not just Sufis and Shias as this article suggests. He doesn't slander any of these but provides Islamic verses to prove his point. He calls for the unity in Islam. He is against any catogoric or sectarian definition of Islam. Indeed those same people on the opposite side of Shaykh Yusuf Estes define themselves, too. I'll second the observation made in the first comment.--Sindbad the Sailor 07:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Misquotes found on websites

message: The article had been rewritten to criticize Sufis and Shia as extremists, and to downplay any link to Salafism. I rewrote to be fair to Sufis and Shia. It is made very clear that Estes denies being a Salafi. Zora 19:41, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i understand that he himself states that people only call him "shaykh" as a mark of respect ("shaykh" literally meaning 'old man'). last i heard of him, he was learning from ja'far idris. ITAQALLAH 19:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So why did you remove the title "Imam" before Ahmed Rida Khan?  Imam means "Leader" and his millions of followers/respecters consider him a leader.  Let me guess removing this title, which you called "removing POV" was indeed your "POV" as a Wahhabi. Hassanfarooqi 16:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i didn't re-insert "shaykh" (and i don't think i would), and i was merely responding to Zora as to why some people call him shaykh. do you understand the difference between that and your skewing of Ahmed Rida Khan? one instance of 'Imam' would be tolerable, but you have yet to explain why every instance of his name should be reverentially preceded with "Imam". with all due respect: yes, he is an Imam to the barelwis, but for the vast majority of humanity (let alone Muslims) he is not. ITAQALLAH 18:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well for the vast majority of humans Muhammed is not a prophet, so by your logic you should start deleting the title Prophet before Muhammed's name?  It is in a lot of wikipedia articles and non-Muslim editors do not delete it.  The last time I checked, the title "Saint" was attached to many personalities of different religions in wikipedia and the argument was that their respecters consider him a saint. Hassanfarooqi 20:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: please see WP:NCP. ITAQALLAH 20:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So what point of yours does it prove?  Muhammed is known as Muhammed only among non-muslims, not Prophet Muhammed.  Wikipedia article is titled Muhammed as well.  Just like Ahmed Raza Khan is known as Imam Ahmed Raza among his followers/respecters but not by you.  As for Yusuf Estes, I just saw a pamphlet from I.C.N.A. (the North American version of Wahhabi influenced Jamat-e-Islami), which has his name as plain Yusuf Estes, no Shaykh.  So Yusuf Estes is not known as Shaykh even among his respecters.Hassanfarooqi 22:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: if you had studied the guideline, you would see what point it proves. ITAQALLAH 22:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It appears you have either not read it, or misinterpret to fit your point.  So I will recap it. "1. the name that is most generally recognisable".  As I proved, Mr. Estes is recogized as plain Yousuf Estes even among his followers.  However Mr. Ahmed Raza Khan is recognized as Imam even among his non-followers (his followers call him Ala-Hazrat).  Yet you take the pain of removing the title Imam everytime someone affix it before him, and defends the title Shaykh before Mr. Estes.  What hypocrisy. Hassanfarooqi 16:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think Shaykh should be used consistently in Hamza Yusuf's article, if it is. But I'm not responsible for all Wikepedia articles. There's some policy, whose name I can't remember, about "don't argue from bad examples elswhere." I've got limited time and energy and I do what I can. As for my not being a Muslim ... well, it is not a requirement that one be a Muslim to work on Islam-related articles. I think it's sufficient that I read, I learn, and I'm not an Islamophobe. Zora 19:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you.  When I started editing and you reverted some of my articles, I considered you a Sufiophobe.  However when I followed your edits, I realized your neutrality.  You are definitely not a Sufiophobe or an Islamophobe.Hassanfarooqi 20:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Someone using article to criticize Sufis and Shia 

message: The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article.-- Jreferee 06:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Assessment#Class_parameter|Biography assessment rating]] comment 

message: Whoever changes his or her relgion is called a convert.
In Islam, it is common practice to call a convert a "revert", for the Qur'an says that Allah made every soul swear that he is God, thus meaning that all souls were Muslims from their beginning. This is something I remember from my days as a Muslim. Armyrifle 00:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But the use or revert is subjective to only the Muslims who understand the use of this word. The general wiki population would not and thus convert is more appropriate. --Ali M Saad (talk) 01:52, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Convert, not "revert" 

message: The recent activities did not fit the standard for a living person biography. I removed this.
Estes' Motto - is it really well known? I say it definitely is not and even if it was it would not be deserving of a section. Unless someone has some radical source to back this up I will shortly remove it. --Ali M Saad (talk) 01:51, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Activities 

message: this guy is way better thn all of u. stop makin lies about him. just chill
Soccerfanplayer (talk) 01:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  yusuf estes 

message: Edits against WP's NPOV policy containing unencyclopedic content and reflect have been objected to by multiple editors. Discuss why we should be violating Wikipedia's policies and undermining the consensus. --Ari (talk) 08:45, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Contentious Edits

message: I've protected this page for a week, and before I did that I reverted to the last version by Ari, who requested the protection. I did this because I was reluctant to protect on versions created by accounts with very few edits, given that it's an article about a living person. Please use the week to reach a compromise, and please also make sure that all your edits are sourced to high-quality sources, per WP:BLP. Cheers, SlimVirgin talk contribs 10:09, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page protection 

message: * User:Muslin Online is continueusly busy to revert and adding unsourced or poor sourced content and he seems not willing to discuss that issue on the talk page, and even giving no reasons in the edit summary.He has twice violated WP:3RR reverting me (Justice007), George Custer's Sabre and Lord Chamberlain, the Renowned. I have already posted him edit warring notice on 30-08-2012, but there is no any reaction or reply.Justice007 (talk) 21:47, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Violation 3RR 

message: I certainly would not describe Yusuf Estes as a 'leader'. He is an evangelist; a preacher calling people to Islam. What or whom does he lead? A mosque? No? A college? No. A tariqa? No. A Muslim association? No. He is prominent and himself claims to have served a Muslim delegate to the United Nations World Peace Conference for Religious Leaders held at the U.N. in September 2000. Is that sufficient? No. Let's have discussion on this topic before we label him a religious leader. George Custer's Sabre (talk) 05:30, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: If he is a preacher and an evangelist, then by definition he is a religious leader. As a missionary, a preacher, a chaplain, and a delegate to a conference for religious leaders, he definitely belongs in a category for religious leaders. An evangelist, by definition, is someone whose aim is to lead new converts into a religion. As such, by definition, he is a religious leader. Chaplains also have their own flock, even though they are not associated with specific mosques or colleges. Again, by definition, a chaplain is a religious leader. Someone who was a delegate to a convention for religious leaders must also be a religious leader - otherwise they would not have been a delegate. Grutness ...wha? 05:38, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Comfort, yes. Green, yes. They are leaders in the sense that they are regarded as prominent spokespeople for their branch of a religious faith - their aim is, through the media and through public speaking, to convert people to their beliefs and to increase the faith of those who already believe. As such, they are leaders of their specific branches of faith. You don't have to have a specific congregation to be a religious leader - you merely have to be a prominent public spokesperson for your faith. Grutness...wha? 09:32, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi Grutness, with no disrespect meant, it seems you want to force the argument to fit your conclusion. According to you, being very evangelical equates to leadership. We really disagree on this. So let's wait until a third editor steps in and gives a view. If he or she then sides with you I'll live with it. Regards, George Custer's Sabre (talk) 09:44, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I mean no offence - you clearly know how these terms are used in Islam better than I do, but certainly an evangelist is by definition a religious leader when it comes to the Christian faith, and I have always thought the same was true with other religions too. Grutness...wha? 10:28, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Preacher and / or LEADER 

message: I added an edit that kept the sources intact and summarized his ban from Singapore, as I believed that hanging a section that constituted half the article, off a single incident/source was WP:UNDUE, however this was reverted. Either this section needs to be turned into a more comprehensive critique or shortened. IF there aren't enough WP:RS to produce a decent criticism section, then it could be because of a lack of notability, and fresh consideration should be given to deleting this article. Park3r (talk) 10:16, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  It seems to me that Yusuf Estes meets Wikipedia’s notability criteria, so I can’t imagine grounds for deletion. The article is no longer a fan page like it once was. It is certainly noteworthy that a notable religious figure has been banned from a country for holding views that the country objects to. But I think you’re right that this section was too long. I have self-reverted. Best wishes, George Custer's Sabre (talk) 11:45, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Ban from Singapore

message: Yusuf Estes Wikipedia needs a little bit more content to be added. The only thing this page is stating is that he once visited a country that said he is intolerant. He has visited many countries so it seems oddhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Writing_style  Ahm1453 (talk) 19:16, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please allow for more content to be added.