Talk:Terry Sanford

message: We're told that Lincoln wrote:
:As Mr. Kennedy sat in the rocker in my office, his head resting on its back he placed his left leg across his right knee. He rocked slightly as he talked. In a slow pensive voice he said to me [snip]. Mrs. Lincoln went on to write "[snip]
I don't think that we need to know Kennedy's posture. But such superfluity is the least important problem here. It's blazingly obvious that Mrs Lincoln wouldn't have written that Mrs Lincoln went on to write something or other.
This is sourced to Lincoln's book Kennedy and Johnson. Well actually no it isn't: it's sourced to this chrestomathy compiled by person(s) unnamed, which shows clear signs of having got garbled. Now, I can make guesses about how it has got garbled, and thus of what could be done with it to make it look convincing and probably not too far from what's actually written in the book. But this isn't good enough.
I'm not in the US and I don't have access to any library that's good for this kind of thing. So I can't volunteer for the following tiresome but necessary work: looking up this quotation (and any other quotation that comes via a dodgy website) in the original book. -- Hoary (talk) 02:20, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem, it's on page 204. — Rlevse • Talk •  02:34, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Do we even need this quote?  It is about something that was considered, but never happened.  --—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk -  10:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It does seem rather long, considering. I'd be inclined to summarize it in a single sentence. -- Hoary (talk) 10:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It needs to stay in somehow because it shows the prominence he had. I saw one ref that said if Kennedy had not died and Sanford was VP and JFK Pres, we'd have stayed out of Vietnam.  — Rlevse • Talk •  18:05, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourcing from books, not from incompetent copies of books 

message: A few thoughts:
*Lengthen the lead to two solid paragraphs—right now only the bare highlights are mentioned there; more can be added.
*Anything else on his war involvement and time in the national guard, or early life in general?
*More on his rise to the Senate would be nice.  Did he personally look for a challenger to the Republican?  Was he attacked only for being a "liberal", or for specific policy positions?
*Clarify the special election—was there just one election for senator (for two months plus the next term) or were they separate elections (perhaps on the same ballot but appearing twice so someone could conceivably vote for one guy for two months and the other guy for the full term)?
*In the legacy section, you might mention who thinks these things, not just cite the sources.  "Sanford's long and productive life touched countless Americans by being a key role in the transformation of Southern politics into the New South" is a bit much ("countless" especially), so reword slightly and defend it.  Was it the education?  The desegregation? 
Hope this helps; let me know if you have questions.--Spangineerws (háblame) 16:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thoughts 

message: I note that the section "President of Duke University" is sourced to a single book. This book is published by a university press, and one can presume that it's written knowledgably and conscientiously. However, this doesn't mean that it's neutral or that what it says is not contentious. (There are of course plenty of examples of strong disagreements among history books published by university presses.) That it's published by Duke University Press does raise the suspicion that it is akin to an authorized history, and authorized histories do tend toward rosiness.
It's very likely that I'm making unjustified insinuations here. Still, it would be better if the section didn't arouse suspicions, even unjustified suspicions. Thus I recommend supplementing Covington and Ellis's view of Sanford/Duke as tolerant and successful with the view of at least one other historian/book unrelated to Duke. Surely there are surveys of US university dissent of that period. -- Hoary (talk) 01:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: added info and ref from a newspaper.  — Rlevse • Talk •  01:21, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's better now, but a recent book would be better still. -- Hoary (talk) 10:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sanford at Duke

message: We're told:
:Sanford was one of the most important public figures of the postwar South.
That's a major claim. And where's it sourced? The blurb for a book on Sanford.
Please, no. The publishers of biographies -- even the academic publishers of academic biographies -- routinely pump up the significance of the biographees. After all, they want to move more copies. An assertion such as this must be sourced to a disinterested authority, for example a institutional/political history of the postwar South. -- Hoary (talk) 01:15, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh, the Harvard study? I'll look for more though. — Rlevse • Talk •  01:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

text: It's a little better but it's still not good. It could be said that Clinton was saying the kind of thing that people say on such occasions -- and this isn't helped by the fact that the praise for the one Southern Dem is coming from another. The other piece is hardly more impressive. For a statement as stong as Sanford was one of the most important public figures of the postwar South, you need the very best authority. Of course you might consider a tactical retreat: Sanford was a major public figure of the postwar South, but if you really believe the current version is valid I'd stick with it and go looking for backup. -- Hoary (talk) 10:19, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

text: I'll take the tactical retreat because I'm having trouble for now finding the type of ref you seek. — Rlevse • Talk •  18:04, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Importance

message: According to The New York Times obit here (and multiple-cited inline), Sanford got his bachelor's degree in 1939 and the law degree followed his WWII military service, so I've clarified that in the article. Also beefed up the Lead to make it more of a comprehensive summary for FAC. JGHowes talk -  18:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work. But as the stuff you footnoted in the lead was footnoted in the body, I am not so sure the footnotes are needed in the lead. The rule of thumb is a well-written lead, as a summary of the body, will need few if any footnotes as those will be in the body with the details. But we'll leave it be for now. I think we're about ready for FAC, just the lingering issue of the MA Theses. — Rlevse • Talk •  21:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thx, I felt that the statement "...remembered as a major public figure of the postwar South..." could be challenged as pov and thus careful footnoting was appropriate for it per WP:LEAD#Citations. JGHowes talk -  23:58, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough.  — Rlevse • Talk •  00:01, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Education and Lead 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Terry Sanford. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080627142907/http://www.southern.org/pubs/pubs_pdfs/rfs1998.pdf to http://www.southern.org/pubs/pubs_pdfs/rfs1998.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111207040423/http://library.uncsa.edu/home/archives/history to http://library.uncsa.edu/home/archives/history
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130518134830/http://www.newsobserver.com/2004/08/15/73575/old-ties-bind-nc-to-mass.html to http://www.newsobserver.com/2004/08/15/73575/old-ties-bind-nc-to-mass.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130518134636/http://www.newsobserver.com/2006/10/14/87888/unity-concept-nothing-new-to-duke.html to http://www.newsobserver.com/2006/10/14/87888/unity-concept-nothing-new-to-duke.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090617122001/http://www.gsa.gov/Portal/gsa/ep/contentView.do?contentId=16039&contentType=GSA_BASIC&noc=T to http://www.gsa.gov/Portal/gsa/ep/contentView.do?contentId=16039&contentType=GSA_BASIC&noc=T
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:16, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Terry Sanford. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131219075654/https://lcrm.lib.unc.edu/blog/index.php/tag/terry-sanford/ to https://lcrm.lib.unc.edu/blog/index.php/tag/terry-sanford/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:23, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Terry Sanford. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070609190616/http://www.pubpol.duke.edu/about/Terry_Sanford/nando/sanfordat80.php to http://www.pubpol.duke.edu/about/Terry_Sanford/nando/sanfordat80.php
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061214003524/http://pubpol.duke.edu/about/Terry_Sanford/ to http://www.pubpol.duke.edu/about/Terry_Sanford/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:29, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Terry Sanford. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120813213505/http://library.duke.edu/rubenstein/findingaids/sanford/ to http://www.library.duke.edu/rubenstein/findingaids/sanford/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 06:31, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This article was promoted to FA back in 2008 and, as was characteristic of the time, the review was not very rigorous. Terry Sanford was a monumental figure in North Carolina and throughout the southern United States in the 20th century and had a long, acomplished career. Per WP:FACR 1b it is expected that featured articles be comprehensive. This article is simply not a full summary of all the reliable material out there on this man. Some things not well covered:
*He suffered "wounds" in World War II. No elaboration on how he got those, or why he wanted to be a paratrooper in the first place.
*No details on how or why he became an FBI agent (plenty found in the very underused source, Terry Sanford: Politics, Progress, and Outrageous Ambitions)
*Many details on his personal life absent (see above source)
*Sanford left the bureau to work at the Institute of Government (this not stated explicitly in the article), but there are no details of his work there.
*No details on his tenure as President of the NC Young Democrats
*No details on his campaign for governor against I. Beverly Lake, Sr., despite the fact that a whole book (Triumph of Good Will: How Terry Sanford Beat a Champion of Segregation in and Reshaped the South) has been written about it, not to mention the political effects of race in that contest.
*Only two small paragraphs on his work for NC education, probably his biggest legacy.
*No background on the establishment of the North Carolina Fund or evaluation of its success, and no info on his relationship with LBJ and involvement in the overall War on Poverty
*Very little info on race relations politics (I added most of what's there), which played a very important role in shaping his image as well as the face of Southern liberalism and the Democratic Party
*Only the briefest info on how Sanford promoted Research Triangle Park
*Aside from a blurb about his views on capital punishment, not very much other info about his gubernatorial career
*As President of Duke University Sanford had a very important role in trying to right the institution's finances and get more money by appealing to wealthier students (see here), but this is not mentioned.
-Indy beetle (talk) 20:13, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not up to Featured Article standards 

message: *The State article (pg. 24) where Sanford comments on GOP gains in NC. -Indy beetle (talk) 09:17, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potential sources