Talk:Wolfgang Grams

message: This article is not particularly clear on why he was a hunted man since 1987. Was it just because he was associated with the RAF? Or was there evidence he was a key member or involved with the planning (or even commission) of crimes? Nil Einne 16:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What did he do? 

message: This article needs better referencing. Specifically, the eyewitness account and the claim it's been officially concluded he did not commit suicide. While this seems likely given that there appears to have been a cover up and resignations, we still need proper references Nil Einne 16:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Referencing 

message: As far as I recall there are serious problems with the theory that Grams shot the GSG9 member. The fatal wounds (going from memory here) were delivered by a police weapon (9mm), there is no reason to believe Grams got access to one of the GSG9 weapons during the brief firefight. So, assuming the ammunition was indeed 9mm, Newrzella was either accidentally, or on purpouse shot by a fellow GSG9 member. So saying Grams murdered Newrzella is incorrect. If anything, Grams' execution might have been a coverup by the same people who accidentally killed their colleague. As it stands this article is not neutral.--Caranorn 13:10, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 9mm Parabellum is the most common handgun caliber there is, especially in western Europe. It is not at all indicative of being a police weapon. If the ballistic examination had determined anything of what you claimed, there should be an official source. 82.83.224.117 11:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

text: And that comment from an annon who didn't even sign. This is no new theory, rather a widespread one. Obviously it's strongest among the extreme left. You may also have noted that I never actually added that material to the article as I couldn't find where I'd last read it (first was in main stream to moderate left newspapers, TV and radio). For the rest it is rather interesting to note what day these interventions by you came.--Caranorn 20:43, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well call it widespread, still it is not what most people think. Sure Nadir and the like might hope to convince everbody, but up to know most people just do not belive that Grams was executed. The witnesses quoted are obviously from the "Spiegel" (a modest left magazine) article. Lets just quote the author of that article: "This article was my most devastating mistake" (after the offical inquiry). So sure there is this theory of his murder, but no way you can call it a fact. If you think it is more likely that Newrzella was shot by other policemen, shot himself, is a figure of imagination or killed by the CIA to blame terrorists, than no matter how many evidence you will find- Wikipedia is still no portal for you to promote your theory (correct or not). Lets just state what the majority thinks is true and add everything else as a remark. By the way as far as i can understand it the German article seems to handle this quite allright, maybe have a look there. Yeah, just some IP: 138.246.7.21 18:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I read the german articles a while ago, while not complete they are indeed okay. Concerning Nadir, they are not the only ones concerned with these events, though I expect even they have not looked into the issue for some time. Concerning der Spiegel, one can't really say it's left wing anymore, if ever, it definitelly had moved well into the middle of the political spectrum by the time of Bad Kleinen. In any case it's probably the most renowned magazine for investigative journalism in the world, definitelly the unrivalled #1 in Germany. Part of the documentation definitelly has it's origin with this magazine. But as I already said, this was a strongly debated issue in all German and many European media at the time, the Spiegel was just one of many taking a close look at those events. For the rest, evidence (reliable sources) is exactly what's required for wikipedia, the problem is that in this case there is no conclusive evidence, which is why the main points of view (not ours, preferably sourcable ones) shoudl be presented.--Caranorn 13:10, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  shooting of Newrzella 

message: This article is very difficult to read and I think the grammar and language used needs to be anglicised, thank you -- Librarianofages 03:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar & Rewrite 

message: I just realised the reference I just added is from another wiki, possibly a copy of an old german wikipedia article. That entire article looks very similar to this one, so I'd assume it's the original source. Unfortunatelly that article doesn't include any furtehr references... Further looking through the history of the german wikipedia article I find the apparent source for the Waffen-SS claim under april 6 2004, two edits by Stefan Kühn refering to a movie/film Black Box BRD. I don't know the film, so can't judge whether this is a correct quote etc.
I'm going to replace the reference I added with a short footnote pointing towards that film.--Caranorn 12:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  reference I just added 

message: Just wanted to add a note here on that office. It should probably be translated as Federal Public Prosecutor or something similar. Possibly with the Staatsanwaltschaft wikilink. But I'm not 100% certain this office is indeed the head of said Staatsanwaltschaft.--Caranorn 15:18, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Generalbundesanwalt 

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thread_title: File:Wolfgang Grams, RAF.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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thread_title:  Fair use candidate from Commons: [[:File:Personenfahndungskarte Grams Wolfgang Werner.jpg]]