Talk:Circassian beauty

message: Has the author of the article ever heard about Pushkin's The Prisoner of Caucasus? Oh, never mind... --Ghirla-трёп- 07:04, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, there should be something in the article about the 19th century Russian obsessions with the Caucasus, and the beauty of its female inhabitants. Meowy 17:34, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The Marx quote is in fact Marx quoting someone else - there is no indiciation that he agrees with it either.The article can be found here . He's quoting a Herr Hugo in order to criticise his historical school of law, and indeed he follows the quote about Circassians with "(Listen to the old man!)" -  he is ridiculing the assertion.
I'd suggest that the Marx reference either be removed or heavily modified. R 79.75.158.71 (talk) 10:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: 'Herr Hugo' is Gustav Hugo. Altered accordingly. Paul B (talk) 12:47, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marx quote is incorrect 

message: It was thought in the 16th to early 19th centuries, a fairly small number of Circassian or Cherkessian workers and "beauties" are part of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade to North America. They were captured in warfare or harem brothels in the Levant or Persian Gulf regions through Turkish or Arabic speculators, then brought over to North Africa and West Africa and traded these people or advertised the "closeness" to white people to the European (mainly British, French or Spanish) buyers. Circassians are portrayed to have dark yet "beige" skin, wavy or straight hair, "Asiatic" or "Abyssinian" features, and been mistaken for lighter-skinned Africans in the eyes of an uneducated visitor who came to purchase or deal with Arabic slave traders. Circassian beauties were a popular choice for white male slave owners with an eye for "bride capture" as in "for sale" to be owned by another. I can only guess a small number of Circassian women lived under and married white American plantation owners, even bore children to them. Due to the ethnicity of Circassians or Cherkessians not typically seen as "white Nordic" or "Anglo-Saxon", the descendants of arranged marriages are likely being told of a "Cherkessian" beauty gave them the looks but may been mistaken as of being a Native American (an unrelated Cherokee people the most common type of Indian), was indeed a misnomer of "Cherkesses" getting mixed up with the "Cherokees". Is this the link to the ever popular trend of some white Americans of being mythically related to an "American Indian" or a female ancestor was a "Cherokee Princess" of exotic ethnoracial appearance? The origin of the hypodescent "Part-Indian" claim by many in North America can be attributed to a possibility of descending from a Circassian or Cherkessian beauty. + 71.102.2.206 (talk) 14:23, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said over on Talk:Cherokee, where you repeated your suggestion and rightly added that it is unfortunately OR, it is certainly an astute observation and sounds worth pursuing. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:39, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no evidence of Circassians or Georgians being trafficked to America because in North America our slave system was based on race.  If you purchased a white woman from a Muslim slave trader and people found out you would be in serious trouble.  This is why I hate articles like this ... they attract fetishistic types.  Your Cherokee/Cherkess theory is really bizarre too.  As for our appearance: we look like exotic white people.  Our men are famous for being gallant and brave and were enslaved as soldiers ... a girl being sold (and it was usually by her family) was because of poverty.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:F00:AACF:B515:6FE0:58A6:AE6 (talk) 14:36, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have no idea if any Circassian women came to the USA, but it's possible and through other means: they were white, but not white enough for 19th century Anglo-American cultural perceptions. They were sold off in marriage in Europe and possibly, a few North American men in Europe obtained them through this method. They are reportedly light-skinned and sometimes had blond or light brown hair, but many had darker hair colors. 67.49.85.100 (talk) 18:31, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mystery of Circassian beauties in America 

message: The article is in sore need of some historical (as opposed to literary) sources. It makes for a very unbalanced article if the literary reception of a topic is given far more space than the topic itself. For example, what is the reason for calling it the "legend of Circassian women"? Is there any evidence that what Voltaire says is not true? To me, the Voltaire quote sounds like a statement of fact, and not like an allusion to a legend. Chl (talk) 19:15, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's impossible to "prove" whether some women are more beautiful than others. Paul B (talk) 20:18, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What Voltaire says are all statements of fact that could potentially be verified: that they were trained, that they were traded, that the sultans liked them. Sure, whether they were beautiful is ultimately a matter of opinion, but if the sultans indeed spent large amounts of money for them, that would be pretty relevant; then the story of the Circassian beauties would not just be a legend, but it would have a basis in historical fact. It makes a big difference IMO whether "the West believed in fictional stories of Circassian beauties" or whether "the sultans thought them to be very beautiful and went to great lengths to acquire them, and reports of this phenomenon spread to the West." Chl (talk) 11:13, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think anyone doubts that it is based in historical fact. The word 'legend' here is not intended to mean that it is made up, just that a particular "mythos" about beauty, race, slavery and sexuality was created around the facts of Circassian concubinage. I think the lede section makes it clear that Circassian concubinage was a real phenomenon. This article is essentially about the legendary aspects of this in western Orientalism. However, more detail on the historical facts would certainly not go amis. Paul B (talk) 12:34, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm Circassian and we look like exotic white people.  We get a little upset when people don't get that yeah: the Turks had huge slave markets and the Greeks did before them.  Circassian women were turned into a fetish and the gallantry and horsemanship of our menfolk had both genders being sold into slavery because the Russians were also trying to exterminate us.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:F00:AACF:B515:6FE0:58A6:AE6 (talk) 14:44, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Fact versus legend

message: Wikipedia's article says "The article also claimed that children born to the "inferior" black concubines were being killed."  The New York [Daily Times] article does not use the word inferior.  Why does that word appear in the Wikipedia article?  Boris B (talk) 02:28, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's an example of scare quotes. The quotation marks are designed to indicate that we don't present the that idea black children are inferior as a fact. Paul B (talk) 15:13, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Like wise the The fact: Of the ALBIONs' however still , Despite the a fact that worlwide killings aiming the COVERINGS of the near eastern Women are no longer exist, (possibly by the kickingof western missionaries by the solarium Technology...)  and its not only the suppossedly AFRO belief they are they are damned Due to their lackings and odd looks but un fortunately still a common serene practise untold from Africa to Turkey, Even to China.Kissser:meadow B(78.186.154.11 (talk) 15:53, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I couldn't have put it better myself. Paul B (talk) 15:57, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Inferior" in the article? 

message: Someone should add some content about Russian representations of "Circassian beauties" -- so far this article shows an information-bias towards Western European sources, which is somewhat strange, given classical Circassia's location. A good place to start would be Lermontov's "A Hero of Our Time", which prominently features a Circassian beauty in its first chapter.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.149.21.28 (talk) 19:57, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian and Russian-language sources 

message: It seems to me that there are essentially 2 different things that this article talks about: 1) the Circassian concubines of the Ottomans and the legends about them in the West; 2) P.T. Barnum's sideshow attractions. This last thing about P.T. Barnum seems rather obscure and possibly irrelevant, only tangentially related to the actual Circassian people. It also seems very US-centric. Shouldn't we split the article into 2? And if P.T. Barnum's "Circassians" aren't relevant enough to have their own article why should such trivia be included here? What is its relevancy?
Secondly, some time ago this article focused a bit too much on the "Orientalist legend" of the Circassian beuaties, it was almost as if Circassians are a legendary people that didn't exist in reality. In fact the "Orientalist legend" is based on the actual history surrounding the Ottoman Imperial Harem, the end of the slavery in the Ottoman Empire, and the ethnic cleansing (alleged?) of the Circassians from the Russian Empire, whence the Circassians found refuge with the Ottomans and gave up teir daughters to the Ottoman harems using a loophole the the interpretation of the Shariah at the time and in the Ottoman administrative law. Thus almost all of the wives of the Sultans and the Imperial Princes in the 19th and early 20th century were either Circassians or Abkhazians or Ubykhs (related peoples, ssometimes included in "Circassians"). I think the only exceptions are: one of the wives of the last Sultan (Mehmed VI), who was Turkish; the mother of Mehmed V, who was Bosnian, and, possibly, Tir-i-Mujgan (the mother of Abdulhamid II) was either Armenian or Circassian.
I think focussing excessively on the "Orientalist legend" makes this article to seem less-than-factual. As an aside, and I know this is some form of hearsay, most of the Circassian people I've met personally have very light skin (especially the women) and often light eyes, but darker hair. There are pictures on the net with the Circassian protest in Istanbul regarding the Sochi Olympics and you can convice yourselves what Circassians look like in real life.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F0E:5180:9E1:E0D6:B828:A59D:87A3 (talk) 07:48, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two different things 

message: I believe this article only considers Circassians=Adyghe. To cite User Listofpeople, "the term 'Circassian' is referred to include any people of Pontic-speaking Northwest Caucasian (Ubykh, Adyghe, Abkhaz, and Abaza) descent who have strong genetic and cultural affinity.Aslan, Cahit (2005). "Doğu Akdeniz'deki Çerkesler." Adana: Kafkas Kültür Deneği Yayınları.Oral, Mustafa (2008). "Sultan II. Abdülhamit döneminde bir 'Çerkes Tarihi' yazılması girişimi."circassian.us : Biz ÇerkeslerHowever, other North Caucasians, namely the Vainakh, Ossetian, Karachay, Balkar as well as the Daghestani (particularly non-Turkic Caucasian Avars, Dargins, Lezgians, and Laks) were also considered to be Circassian in the Ottoman Empire.Karadaş, Yalçın. "Çerkes Kim, Çerkesya Neresi ? Gelecek Hakkında Düşünceler." Jıneps Gazetesi. Istanbul. 23 March 2012. Web.Altın, Gülüzar and Meryem Gümüş (2011). "Çerkeslerde kaşenlik âdeti üzerne sosyolojik bir inceleme: Eskişehir örneklemi." ed. Mehmet Aksoy. Bursa: TÜBİTAK Türkiye Bilimsel ve Teknolojik Araştırma Kurumu.". In numerous Ottoman harems women were not only Abkhazians but also GeorgiansJoseph, Suad, and Afsāna Naǧmābādī, eds. "Encyclopedia of women and Islamic cultures: Family, law and politics." Vol. 2. Brill, 2003.. For example on Turkish wikipedia, there are two separate articles called Çerkesler (Kuzey Kafkasyalılar) (Circassians: North Caucasians) and Çerkesler (Adığeler) (Circassians: Adyghes)
Thisisnotalovesong (talk) 09:51, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: This is true. I was the one who wrote some of the sentences you mention. Correctly, Circassians=Adyghe but both Turks and Russians fudge it a lot. Feel free to add it to the page.--Calthinus (talk) 20:25, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  , "Circassian" is the name given to Adyghes. "Adyghe" is a Circassian native term, and the English name for the Adyghe people is "Circassian". Because most migrants from the Caucasus were Circassians, the Turks used the term to refer to all North Caucasians, however this changes nothing. It is still, in scholarly sources or in daily archival use, the name for the Circassian people, and other people have their own names. A nation can't even have a name? What even is the logic behind this? Sincerely, AdigabrekTalk  20:02, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Circassians as a collective name for North / Northwest Caucasians 

message: Male Georgian Circassian folk dancers often wear black billowy sheepskin hats. Westerners may know them as "Cossack hats." They bear a ressemblance to the "moss" hairstyle of the side show. 2603:7080:D541:B700:4C58:7FA4:93B0:BFC6 (talk) 01:20, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Circassian beauty teased hair