Talk:Northern Ireland/Archive 2

message: I think we could do with a better one and I've proposed some alternatives at
Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29#A_better_flag_icon_for_Northern_Ireland.3F --Cavrdg 13:53, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Flag icon

message: The following paragraph was removed. 
Once established under the Government of Ireland Act 1920, Northern Ireland was structured geographically (see gerrymander) so as to provide a permanent unionist majority in key geographic areas, with predominantly nationalist areas producing unionist majorities through the granting of voting rights exclusively to property owners (where most Catholics were renting and most Protestants were owners). Local government wards (local government constituencies) also had boundaries constructed to ensure Protestants won most seats and so controlled local government in areas like Derry. Anger of local government control by Protestants, and the awarding of housing to Protestants to ensure Unionist majorities in areas with large Catholic populations, played a significant part in creating the Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s, with a sit-in by nationalist politician Austin Currie in a house granted to an unmarried protestant woman ahead of a large homeless Catholic family triggering off the movement. 
I have reinstated it. It is factually correct. (BTW, lest anyone think otherwise, I am not a Sinn Féin-style Irish republican, nor am I anti-unionist. I have been accused on wikipedia of being "pro-British" - once a "British apologist", for refusing to write nationalist/republican propaganda into articles!) Studies by Paul Bew and in particular the universally acclaimed the late Professor John H. Whyte (Queens University Belfast and University College Dublin), whose books, notably Interpreting Northern Ireland (1990) are regarded across the political divide as the most authoritative on Northern Ireland, state categorically that local government gerrymandering did exist. It was also condemned by British politicians. Its existence has also subsequently been admitted to by leading unionists, including David Trimble, whose "cold house for Catholics" comment describing Northern Ireland, was partly in reference to the infamous gerrymandering. Indeed so blatent was the gerrymandering that one British Home Secretary called it "astonishing". 
What happened was simple. In places where large nationalist majorities exist, wards were constructed to keep all the nationalists together. Some wards would be 95% nationalist, but massive nationalist wards would only produce a minimal number of seats (the maximum available for a ward). Had boundaries been drawn neutrally, that population would have been broken up into several wards because of geography, with each ward having nationalist majorities, producing far more nationalist councillors than could exist when nationalists were crammed into a couple of massive wards. Elsewhere, nationalist and unionist areas were put together in wards where it was arranged that unionists would outnumber nationalists. Derry/Londonderry was a notorious example of this gerrymander. In addition, the awarding of housing was arranged to give unionists houses in 50:50 nationalist/unionist wards, again producing over time unionist majorities. 
Finally voting in local government was by means of property ownership, with in some cases the owners of properties having multiple votes and the tenants of properties none. As economic wealth in Northern Ireland was until recently years more associated with unionists than nationalists (ie, there were more middle class property-owning unionists per proportion of the population, and more working class nationalists without property per proportion of the population) a voting register based on property rights unduly favoured one class, and so the group with most members of that class, unionists. If I remember Whyte's lectures correctly (and a leading Ulster Unionist made the same point to me a couple of months ago, as did someone in the Northern Ireland Office when my group of students met senior officials on a visit to Northern Ireland - we also met the SDLP, UUP, Sinn Féin, Alliance and DUP, etc) Northern Ireland was the last part of the UK still to have a property based electoral register, such a voting regulation having been abolished in the recent of the UK in or around 1945. It was re-introduced in the North for local government by the Stormont government, against the advice of Lord Carson, who correctly predicted that any institutionalised discrimination would destabilise Northern Ireland and prove a mistake. Sir James Craig, to Carson's horror, thought otherwise. Voters by property (ie, votes for rate-payers) was one of the first things abolished by Britain when it took running Northern Ireland. The entire Northern Ireland local government system was re-organised in the 1970s, on the excuse that local government was being reorganised in England and Wales by Heath's government. 
Leading unionists today regard the gerrymandering of local government has perhaps the biggest mistake ever committed by the Stormont government. They say that the whole civil rights campaign owed its origins to that mistake. Had local government not been gerrymandered so blatently Stormont could have survived. But that the entire edifice of government had been completely discredited by what was effectively rigged local elections. The gerrymandering provided the spark that brought the old Northern Ireland down. And we have all had to live, for good or ill, with the consequences. FearÉIREANN 23:31, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reinstated paragraph

message: I don't suppose anyone can find a picture of a NI postage stamp - one of the little definitives which differ from the English ones by the emblem in the corner? --Doric Loon 16:11, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a difference? I never noticed a difference between them I must admit. A standard first class stamp in England is the same as one in Northern Ireland. Unless something has changed, I admit it's been 10 years since I bought stamps in Northern Ireland. Ben W Bell 16:30, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: stamp?

message: Why revert the U in Unionist to lower case?  Gerry Lynch 19:16, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lower/Upper Case 

message: So this is English/Irish Gaelic/Ulster Scots and what? --Audiovideo 13:31, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: English/Irish/Typo?/Ulster Scots --Ryano 15:56, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  At least one of the last two variations should be struck down, use a footnote if excessive (or alternate) translations are to be provided, infoboxes should only incorporate official names. Djegan 16:06, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The United Kingdom infobox gives Unitit Kinrick o Great Breetain an Northren Ireland as the Scots language version, but a Google search  suggests that wikipedia is the only source for this.  A search for Norlin Airlann shows this to be the version to go for. I will remove "Northren Ireland" --Audiovideo 01:54, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: The trouble is that "Norlinn Airlann" is pidgin Scots, no matter how widespread it is. The equivalent in English would be something like "Northland Iarlind". Native Scots speakers generally do say "Northren Ireland". Even if we did say "Norlinn Airlann", we'd at least spell "lann" consistently. -- Derek Ross |  Talk 15:16, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Northern Ireland/Tuaisceart Éireann/Northren Ireland/Norlin Airlann

message: From the article: The regional ITV station, Ulster Television, changed its name to simply UTV so as not to offend anyone, particularly in the Republic where it has a large audience and many advertisers.
Is there any evidence that this was a consideration, rather than simply adopting the abbreviation that everybody used? --Ryano 09:18, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I must admit that line has me going a bit. It changed it's name quite some time ago, and quite frankly the use of the term Ulster in companies and institutions only offends a very few people, but I'm not sure as to why they changed. It could be because that's just what everyone else was doing, Kentucky Fried Chicken to KFC, British Midlands International to BMI, a lot of things in the modern world have gone down the acronym route so I do actually doubt that causing offense was the reason behind it. It may well have been a factor but I doubt it was the reason. Ben W Bell 09:28, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey Ben. Actually, KFC changed because of a reluctance to be hit up by the state of Kentucky for royalties based upon using the name of their state. I read that the Kentucky Derby was close to suffering the same fate. Sounds like urban legend, doesn't it? Nearside 12:18, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

text:  I agree, and I've scrapped it pending any back-up being provided. --Ryano 10:57, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  UTV 

message: I note that on this site that there is a picture of the Northern Ireland coat of arms (the one with the stag). Since I'm relatively new to editing here, I'm not too sure as to the copyright rules for images etc. Does anyone know where a colour version of this could be obtained that would fit the fair use poilicy, and could be placed in the "Symbols" section. The Northern Ireland article is the only part of the British Isles articles without a coat of arms!! (even though I understand that the Stormont parliament was abolished, but think it should be included anway)
Jonto
:The coat of arms featured is DEFUNCT. Nobody uses it, least of all the UK government - while Scotland does have its own version of the British coat of arms, Northern Ireland doesn't. The flag (which is a banner of the arms) is still used sometimes, but the coat of arms itself is not used any more, unofficially, semi-officially, or officially. Quiensabe 2005-10-13 04:00 UTC
::The arms featured are defunct and incorrect.  The lion supporter is not crowned and should look to the arms and not the viewer.  The compartment was added in 1971 as including 2 flax plants with three flowers each, but no motto was drawn onto/around the compartment.  In fact the Home Office even queried if it was correct. 82.24.32.135 16:01, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coat of Arms? 

message: Somehow, this article has become, once more, crap.  Too many things which should be in the main politics and history articles.  Also the structure is way out of kilter with most other country articles.  I'd suggest first of all taking most of the tedious )(and often inaccurate) nomenclature stuff out into a separate article.
Can we try and make it more readable and legible regardless of our POVs, please?  Gerry Lynch 15:29, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I seriously agree - their is a point at which it is time to "cull" an article heavily - topical news items can be particularily in this category where they become a "dump" for every side in a npov-perversion. In particular the section on geography has become large, compared to others. A good article should be factual, to the point, have flow and balance - it is going to be a difficult job identifying what is to be culled here as it has seriously been fought over in revert wars recently. Djegan 18:19, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Sorry, I think it's excessively detailed for a main article, it can be put in a linked side article.  It's also riddled with value judgements, urban myths and straight out inaccuracies. Gerry Lynch 12:19, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Agreed - the nomenclature section is very poor. Full of PoV and too focused on Nationalist/Unionist divides. Words are used for many reasons and not simply for those stated. And where's "Norn Iron" on the list!!?Jonto 20:18, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: This article has become crap again

message: This article sucks and is way in need of attention.
Please [ improve it] in any way you see fit.
Gerry Lynch 12:28, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sorry, couldn't resist it

message: The article Northern Ireland naming dispute has been nominated for deletion, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Northern Ireland naming dispute. Djegan 21:14, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If the outcome is deletion, then kindly reintegrate its content into the parent article (viz this one), and also transfer its talk page here. //Big Adamsky 16:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. That article should not be deleted, but renamed to something like "Terminology for Northern Ireland". As discussed with what looks like consensus under "This article has become crap again", most of that nomenclature section is woefully long and inaccurate. I propose to scrap the majority nomenclature stuff from this article and link to the mentioned article instead. Jonto 18:08, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Northern Ireland naming dispute

message: Decolonization has been adopted by the U.N. as official policy, and has even been forced - such as for example, in the case of Guine Portuguesa ("Guinea Bissau"), where the U.N. 'denounced' the Government of Portugal for 'aggression' against the rebels! Let us also not forget the Pied Noirs of Algeria, who were left with no other option than to repatriate to Continental France. Why are the Anglo-Scotch colonists in Occupied Ulster an exemption to this? The Occupation is justified only on the basis of these colonists, who have no moral right to remain in Eire in this day and age. 
If colonism is immoral, it is immoral everywhere, and by whomever practised. And colonists do not have a moral right to carve out bantustans for themselves on basis of pretended colonist-majority districts! 
Why is it that the English imperial fiction of "North Ireland" is considered moral and legal, but the bantustan carved out of Romania-Moldavia by Russian-Ukrainian colonists as the "Republic of Trans-Dniestria" or the Turkish bantustan for Turkish colonists in North Cyprus considered illegal? Hypocrisy? Double standards? Englishmen have a right to rob and impose themselves on others, while Russians and Turks don't?  
One can argue about the morality and honesty of Robert Mugabe, his tactics, personality cult and his cronyism, but one can hardly argue with the fact that if colonists are uncomfortable with their host communities, it is time for them to repatriate. Or, perhaps, a la "North Eire", the English should invade Zimbabwe to carve out a "Free Rhodesia" for English colonists there? 
Can colonists pretend to a right to democracy where they do not belong? Englishmen and Scots have rights to democracy in England and Scotland, not in Occupied Eire. 
Today, in Eire, we see an effete and compromised Irish people willing to sell their birthrights to the colonists and their imperialist masters in London in exchange for an illusory peace. That is the greatest monument to the success of the centuries-old English program of terrorism of and genocide directed against the Irish, and it would seem, that this "success" will present the world with a fait accomplii. 
As a citizen of another occupied territory (Goa), I appeal to Irish patriots not to join the bandwagon of the complacent traitors but to pursue justice unalloyed and true. Freedom is always worth the sacrifices involved. There is no real liberty without winning one's right to it. It is high time to compel England, whichever way, to recall its colonists from Ireland. 
WikiSceptic 18:07, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I trust you don't really think that the above ill-informed rant by WikiSceptic is characteristic of mainstream Irish nationalism. --Ryano 21:50, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think twice already that comment was blanked, Wikipedia is not a soapbox; as a matter of course i dont believe their is any policy that states an off the topic comment must stay. Djegan 22:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I don't see any reason to blank that particular comment if the rest of the comments in this section are to stay.  There doesn't appear to be any discussion about the article in this section whatsoever. --Ryano 22:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

text: BBC Newsreport: British govt mulled 'relocating' Irish out of Occupied Ireland - WikiSceptic 20:56, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine if you want to decolonise Northern Ireland then I'll go for it, but you also have to decolonise other areas. Everyone in North American who is not a blood descendant of the original natives must leave, same with Australia. Israel must be handed back to the Palestinians who must then hand it back to the Jews who must then hand it back to the Eqyptians/Sumarians/whoevers. Southern Spain should be handed back to the Moors, half of France should be returned to the English and then back to the Francs. You cannot keep going back in time as ultimately we should all retreat to a small pocket somewhere in Africa and then rid the world of the human species. Ben W Bell 08:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Decolonizing Occupied Ulster

message: These two sentences had me scratching my head:
"Although Protestants are a clear majority, the largest religious denomination of Northern Ireland is the Roman Catholic Church, followed by the Presbyterian Church in Ireland and the Church of Ireland, with the Methodist Church of Ireland coming fourth. These two views are linked to deeper cultural divisions."
What on earth do they mean? Do "practising" protestants outnumber "practising" catholics? Or the other way around? Which "two views" are being referred to in the second sentence? Robertbyrne 15:59, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I guessed this around the time "plurality" was substituted for "majority" on the 20th October. Not sure the wording is clear yet though. By the way, what does "fear eireann" mean? (Should I fear Ireland? :) ). Robertbyrne 04:25, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing sentences 

message: Ulster's Unionists, though generally opposed to the introduction of Home Rule to Ireland as a whole, were willing to accept a divided Ireland, with the nine counties of Ulster remaining under direct rule from London. Not true. Unionists did not want partition. Some were willing to accept it tactically in the belief that Britain would not partition the island. Most Unionist leaders like Carson were appalled at the very idea of partition. 
Frankly the entire section was barely pass standard. If written in an essay it would get a "must try better" note from a teacher. It was way below basic encyclopædic standards. 
To put it bluntly, this graphic sums it up: 
	This article sucks and is way in need of attention.
Please [ improve it] in any way you see fit.
FearÉIREANN\(caint) 20:55, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ridiculous history 

message: I do not agree with "County Derry" being given prominance as of late in the article, "County Londonderry" should be given first prominance as it was the official name of the administrative county whilst it existed and today it remains as the name used for the Lord-Lieutenant title for the county, County Derry has no official status. Introducing information on what each community uses only introduces clutter in an already large and overbearing article (this is already a big issue in all Northern Ireland articles where every opinion has to be pandered to), and as it was largely agreed that the compromise was for "City of Derry" and "County Londonderry" then I think its only a matter of time before its open day on this question again. Call it dumbing down if you want, but simplicity rules. Djegan 23:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Where is the term County Derry used geographically? Counties are nothing but political entities. The name of the county is County Londonderry, that is straight forward fact no matter the opinions of either side. Should we change the Republic of Ireland article to the name Down South as that's how many people in Northern Ireland refer to it? Of course not, so why should County Londonderry be changed to something it is not? Hell even the infamously unbiased source of the CIA Worldbook lists it as County Londonderry. Ben W Bell 08:11, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Sorry, but like it or not Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom and the official name in the UK is County Londonderry. I see no problem with recording its alternative name as well, but its official name in its own country comes first. And what do people mean by 'geographical' name? It is (or was) a county. A county is purely an administrative unit. Geography has nothing to do with it. Its name may be County Derry in the Republic, but it's not in the Republic, whether some would like it to be or not! -- Necrothesp 13:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The term County Londonderry is always given prominence in any map\atlas, it is the Official name of the county, which has never had any other name. It was created when the County of Coleraine and parts of Tyrone, Donegall and Antrim were formed to make County Londonderry, this is when Derry town (as it was then) was renamed. The GAA use the term County Derry because it is a Catholic association where the term Londonderry is not accepted. :: Keith :: 15:34, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't have much to add to this discussion, but I hope you'll excuse a pedantic point on your comment: it's not fair or accurate to call the GAA a "Catholic association". --Ryano 18:01, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

text: The news report thing (BBC I believe) is only in reference to Derry City not the county, it is, and always has been Londonderry, County Derry would only be seen in a news report about a GAA game. Cartographers generally, unless is is different in the Republic of Ireland as it is here, use County Londonderry. Usually the city is printed as "Londonderry (Derry)". I can assure readers that any maps I have used or own have the county written as County Londonderry as it would be expected to be. :: Keith :: 22:17, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Okay Jtdirl, back up your claims with evidence, I personally have never seen County Derry on a map that wasn't from a Republican source. The county has only one legal name and has only ever had one name. Ben W Bell 07:27, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: County Derry/County Londonderry

message: I note that a figure of 57% has been given for the plebiscite in the 70s withiout a source. I remember thinking that this was much higher. Anyone got a source?
Jonto 17:45, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Plebiscite

message: Could someone explain how the Norn iron accent is influenced by that of the brummys, or where this came from? Jonto 17:57, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea where someone got that idea, the accents are totally different. Also there isn't really such a thing as a Northern Irish accent, it varies so much from place to place more so than in many countries for some reason. Ben W Bell 19:09, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  West midlands influence? 

message: The map "Northern Ireland's location within the UK" does not show remote parts of the country, namely the isles of Scilly and the Shetland Islands. On the other hand, some of the neighbouring countries and territories are outlined (in white), namely the isles of Man and Ireland, whereas nearby France and Belgium are not shown at all... --Big Adamsky 02:02, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Republic is presumably in outline as it shares the UK's one and only land border. The omissions, however, should probably be corrected, as should the similar pictures at Scotland, England, Wales etc. Try leaving notes on the images' talk pages, or adapt the pictures yourself if you have the graphical knowhow. --Kwekubo 12:29, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I would do it myself if I had the technological means... For now all I can do is "complain", as it were. But at least it's a start. 8-] --Big Adamsky 13:58, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Map