Talk:Barbershop music

message: ...although  a real Society booster might say that "thousands" errs in the other direction. 
At this point in time, I don't honestly believe that there is any large amount of barbershop singing activity going on outside the societies.  The society was, in fact, founded because it was starting to die out as a independent, spontaneous phenomenon. In the fifties, when quartets were still a common feature e.g. in radio or televison commercials, the Mills Brothers were still cutting hit records, etc. the average person would have heard the style in "ordinary life" and one can imagine that at least some would have picked it up and started to sing it just from hearing it. The total number of people singing barbershop can't be very different from the total membership of SPEBSQSA + SAI + HI.
www.harmonize.com/region4/ MMNewsletter-September2003.PDF says:
In last month’s issue, we reported that from April 30, 2002 to April 30, 2003 Sweet Adelines International has seen a 2.5%
decrease in total membership. Total members is currently 27,273. Within the last eight years, SAI membership peaked
in 1997 to 30,092. It has declined steadily since.
Dpbsmith 10:26, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  I agree with your changes... 

message: Well, I found (and lost, darn it) a reference somewhere to a total membership of "about 80,000" for the combined three organizations, and since SPEBSQSA and SAI are about 30,000 each and HI is smaller than SAI, I think that will do.
It seemed to me that it was absolutely necessary to explain why SPEBSQSA has such a long initialism, which led to a brief explanation, which seemed to require noting the origins of SAI and HI as well, which seemed to require a plain statement (rather than the usual PR euphemism of saying that the SAI/HI split originated over "a by-law.")
Dpbsmith 11:05, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Membership figures; HI numbers... 

message: I have noticed that one of the most volatile parts of this article seems to be the list of "Notable Artists", owing, I'm sure, to the fact that this is such a subjective designation.  Indeed, I have started to wonder if the list ultimately adds any substance to the article, or whether it could just as easily be eliminated from it, or handled differently.
As long as it's preserved, however, these are my latest thoughts:
I agree that the doo-wop groups and others that have so far been removed are better categorized and written about under that category (or perhaps the more comprehensive "a cappella" section).  
My opinion is that a limited, concise list of quartets and choruses is more valuable than everyone adding his or her favorite group(s) to the list, with the result being long, arbitrary, and ultimately not as useful for those not familiar with the style.  
I would also point out that many of the quartets that might be included on the list are already accessible via other links in the article, such as the SPEBSQSA site, and for that reason are already well within reach of those wanting more information or conducting research, and therefore are unnecessary to include on this page.  The Acoustix quartet is a good example of this, and one of my main reasons for taking them off the list when editing this article recently is because they appear on the websites of both the Vocal Majority chorus website and the SPEBSQSA website, both of which already appear as links in this article.  The Vocal Majority themselves are a better candidate for the "Notable Artists" list, due to their unprecedented success and very high profile in the realm of barbershop *chorus* singing, although I note that the Louisville Thoroughbreds have won only one fewer SPQBSQSA chorus championship than they have.  In other words, the list could go on and on...
As long as the "Notable Artists" list persists, though, the criteria I would suggest for barbershop singing groups being included (since the question has been raised several times) are that the artist be widely considered historically important (one measure of this might be if the group is otherwise documented in the Wikipedia), and that they be a good example of the barbershop style as defined in the article and as historically practiced (as opposed to certain more recent arrangements and repertoires that puch the barbershop envelope).  This "Notable Artists" distinction is ultimately impossible to make objectively, so I expect (and hope) there to be much more lively debate regarding this section of the article.
:Let's not get into the business of excluding things from the notable artists lists. Just as with stub articles, I suggest that the best way to write this section of the article collaboratively is  for start by everyone adding his or her favorite group to the list—or, more properly, for everyone to add whatever groups they think should be added. I definitely think it helps if the entry gives both the name of the group and a sentence or two explaining why they're included. When the list gets to be more than a few scattered entries, then we can start to slice and dice it and organize it under subheads. As for whether they be "a good example of the barbershop style," the classification could deal with that.  Why don't you get the ball rolling by adding the groups that you think ought to belong?
:One NPOV way of doing this is to add groups that have won SPEBSQSA /SAI/HI championships, since by definition these groups are regarded as good example of the style by the organizations that define the style.
Dpbsmith 19:00, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable Artists list needs some consideration, deliberation 

message: Only the (links to the)U.S. organisations are mentioned.
Here is another link: http://www.harmonize.ws/links/
This link shows that outside the U.S., there are numerous barbershop organisations. Not all of them are affiliated to one of the three mentioned U.S. barbershop organisations.
*By all means, add information to the main article about barbershopping outside the U. S. There was no intention to restrict this article to the U. S., it (like much other U.S.-centrism in Wikipedia) just happens as a byproduct of the people who happen to contribute to it. The particular link you mention doesn't specifically deal with barbershopping outside the U.S., and I wasn't able to find outside-U.S. links in it quickly. You would be doing us all a service if you'd put specific links to non-U.S. barbershop organizations in the External Links of the article. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:57, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  barbershop links 

message: I saw this sugestion on the main page, but no discussion here, so I've added it.
*SUPPORT: This section does indeed appear to be a duplication of the BHS article, and this article is getting long. Jon 20:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed merger of section (Organization) into the Barbershop Harmony Society article

message: We need to be VERY careful about thinking of the Barbershop Harmony Society (or any other organization) as being synonymous with barbershop music. At the risk of oversimplifying, BHS/SAI/etc are just groups of people who enjoy the hobby (and therefore share sheet music, compete, attend coaching sessions, wear logo clothing, hold conventions, etc).
There's nothing wrong a barbershop quartet not being a member of BHS/SAI/etc.
Likewise, there's nothing wrong with someone who enjoys the music not being interested in BHS/SAI/etc or their activities.
That said, some of the content in this article needs to be separated. "Notable Artists" sounds like a nice section, but it's basically a list of BHS international champions. The section should be changed to "International Champions" and moved to the Barbershop_Harmony_Society article. This also removes the subjectivity of selecting who should and shouldn't be listed there. The Pop_music genre article has no notable artists; it's probably easist of Barbershop_music doesn't either.
Everything under "Organization" should also be moved to Barbershop_Harmony_Society. "Typical Barbershop Songs" has a place here, as long as there is no requirement that they be "officially" barbershop per any organization rules (i.e. BHS).
Scott Crevier 20:26, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  must distinguish between the genre and the society 

message: First of all, this snuck through the process because there's no review here, and second of all, although about the second half the article is "well-referenced", the first half isn't. And fulfilling half of one criteria just isn't enough folks. Also, the lead is really rather long, and you have a sentence just floating there, try to condense it. Homestarmy 18:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Delisted Ga

message: I think we need to stop adding names to the list of choruses and quartets. It seems more appropriate to be adding these names to the SPEBSQSA article, and leave this one to explain only what barbershop music is. Otherwise the names are going to be spread out all over the place, with duplication of links, etc. Let's just keep this article focused on the music aspect itself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dullfig (talk • contribs) 17:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Woops, sorry about that. Dullfig 02:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List of barbershop choruses and quartets

message: Why was the link taken out? what is the criteria for inclusion of choruses, and why are we still listing them on this page, when the proper page is the Barbershop Harmony Society page? Dullfig 00:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Saltaires

message: Whenever I listen to the classic white male gospel quartets, like The Blackwood Brothers or The Statesmen Quartet, I can't help thinking "Barbershop!"  Don't white or Southern gospel quartets use the same voices and rules, like dominant sevenths, as Barbershop?  Of course, they usually sing accompanied, though they often do a cappella, too.  I was thinking of adding mention of them, maybe in a short section.  What do you think? — J M Rice 16:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  White Gospel Quartets 

message: I didn't put the navigation box there, but I don't see why it is "extraneous" or "inappropriate" and I think it should remain. The black origins of the barbershop style are well established, and black quartets regularly competed in the barbershop singing contests popular in New York City just prior to the establishment of SPEBSQSA. SPEBSQSA's exclusion of blacks for the first decade or so of its history is an embarrassment to SPEBSQSA. SPEBSQSA did succeed in creating a association of barbershop with white quartets in the public mind, but that is not a reason for perpetuating this misconception in our article about the style.
Barbershop, like jazz, is not necessarily thought of as "African-American," but both historically had origins in black folk music. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:19, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: African American topics

message: Strong disagree rather the reverse.  Much of the content in the Barbershop music article belongs in the quartet article.  COI acknowledged.LeadSongDog (talk) 20:17, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the nastygram. Anyway..I think when someone types in Barbershop Quartet, they would be looking for information on the history and style of Barbershop Music...not the particular history of some specific quartet that only members of Harmoney International or Sweet Adelines have ever heard of.  I think that there is way too much overlap between the three articles and maybe, at some point in the future, the three articles can stand on their own, but for now it seems they would best be served by one. Wikipedia is not written for those of us that *know* about a topic, it is written for the people that are looking to learn and I think that the information people will be looking for is here and the other articles would best be merged. Legotech (talk) 00:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger proposal

message: Umm, is that part a joke by somebody? Barbershop singers mentioned in Don Quixote and mysterious 'musical publications' without any citations to back it up? --193.118.251.61 (talk) 16:38, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: History section

message: The article says:
I added a  tag to the last sentence.  Which episode?  Do you mean the episode Homer's Barbershop Quartet?  Because http://www.thesimpsons.com/episode_guide/0501.htm says this parodies The Beatles, not the S.P.E.B.S.Q.S.A., singing on a rooftop.  Cheers, --unforgettableid | talk 17:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation needed

message: In the intro, the article doesn't even mention if baritones ever have the melody. It reads like this:
"The melody is not usually sung by the tenor or bass, except for an infrequent note or two to avoid awkward voice leading, in tags or codas, or when some appropriate embellishment can be created."
Will someone tell me whether or not baritones ever sing the melody? If they do, don't you think it would be nice to incorporate that in the intro (or at least somewhere in the article)? Thanks. 98.202.38.225 (talk) 02:24, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does the baritone ever have the melody? 

message: Shouldn't there be a section on clothing style? While not a specific requirement for the music style, the close association of a distinctive style of dress is very much associated with the genre and one can't get a complete understanding of the genre without understanding the unique clothing style. Skeptonomicon (talk) 16:38, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Style of Dress 

message: I would like to request that a link be added to the section 6.3.3 Sweet Adelines International with the wording below:
Viva Acappella Chorus2012 Sweet Adelines Region 31 Gold Medal chorus from Kent, United Kingdom
Thank you
Nittynats (talk) 13:44, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request to add link to external web page 

message: The origins of "Barbershop" simply did not originate with the African American, due to the historical fact, that he was still a slave and had no ability of owning a "Barbershop" at the time of the "Barbershop Quartet" and it's beginnings, which were sometime in the early 1800's. White men have gathered to harmonize dating back to Europe and Catholic Monk, at a time when the African, in Africa, had no idea of what vocal harmony was. The American black simply learned from what he saw around him, but did not originate. I would like the proof of the African American having originated this musical form, if not, the history currently being told should be changed. — Preceding text originally posted on Barbershop music (diff) by MrRJDB (talk⋅contribs) 14:44, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think anyone suggested that barbershops were then owned by African Americans.  As for "proof", the article has several sources identified for its "Historical origins" section, one of which is available here. You're welcome to identify any reliable sources you have in support of your statements. —ADavidB 17:30, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Origins

message: There is a figure of a "Barbershop chord" which I believe to be incorrect.  First, it is a five-tone chord; Barbershop music has only four parts.  Second, the voicing of the chord seem far from typical for barbershop harmony, to me.  Bass notes are typically low (the C4 shown is toward the very top of the usual Bass range) to maximize the volume of the lowest-pitched ringing tones.  The I-V interval for Bass-Baritone is very common because it is so consonant and rings so loudly (on G4 in this case). 
If knowledgeable arrangers verify my suspicions, perhaps someone with the technical ability could post a more accurate figure; however, even eliminating the figure would be an improvement, in my view.
Mcamp@cinci.rr.com (talk) 16:33, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The "barbershop chord" as a harmonic concept refers to the harmonic seventh chord, irrespective of voicing or orchestration, so in that sense, it's correct. That said, it's confusing to show voicing and notation that's not common in the genre. I'll remove the image and leave the audio in place. Ibadibam (talk) 19:24, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is the chord shown in the figure correct? 

message: I made a number of small changes to the referenced paragraph.
There were a number of synonyms for the "defining characteristic" of barbershop music.  I eliminated them in the interest of brevity.  
Some, such as "angel voice", I had never heard of in my sixty years as a musician and enthusiast, so I thought that not too much would be lost by editing them out (even though they would be interesting in a more specialized article specifically about harmony and overtones!)
One was simply wrong: seventh chords are certainly favored in barbershop, but a (diminished or "dominant") seventh chord in the technical sense, without regard  to voicing or intonation, is not a uniquely "ringing" chord.   As voiced by barbershop arrangers or singers, it rings pretty well, but not because of the tone that makes it a seventh!  Elsewhere, the importance of the seventh chord is correctly ascribed to barbershop music as very important, without implying that it is important because it rings particularly well.  
One proposed synonym ("overtone") was not quite technically correct.  Voices have overtones, regardless of what style is being sung. The thing that barbershop lovers love about overtones is how they amplify each other in the harmony, not just that they exist.
There were also some technically incorrect references to undertones.  I eliminated all references related to undertones.  Barbershop music is characterized in part by the effects (chords "ringing') of certain intervals sung perfectly in just intonation.  Since undertones are always a result of intervals that are not in just intonation, they have no place in barbershop music.  (Perhaps there are some moments where a normally "barbershop" quartet of unusual skill and eclectic tastes creates an undertone for special effect, but I've never heard of it and there is no possibility that anyone would consider it a characteristic of the style.  I've heard once or twice of ensembles intentionally using undertones, but I don't recall specifically of them being barbershop quartets.)
Mcamp@cinci.rr.com (talk) 02:00, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup on paragraph re "Ringing chords" 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: from Barbershop music to Barber's pole 7&6=thirteen (☎) 20:15, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Attribution

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article purports that Baarbershop harmony had at least part of its origins in American Black music. Though it may be true that some early barbershop singers were Black, the style itself had no early start in Black music. Rather, looking at its harmonic structure, it is quite obvious that both the music and the harmony were straight out of the 19th century European diatonic harmonic tradition. 
Moroever, in the late 18th century up to the 1930's (perhaps) popular muusic of the time included so-called "Coon songs," which highly negatively stereotyped American Blacks. Much of that music was arranged for and sung by barbershop quartets of that time. Flylooper (talk) 16:23, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Sources for verification? —ADavidB 08:14, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins of Barbershop Harmony