Talk:Pop Warner

message: he graduated college and was hired to coach at the age of 14? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.151.178.238 (talk • contribs) 2006-05-12 17:27:40 (UTC).
:He was 24 when he took his first job (1895-1871), not 14.--Tlmclain  | Talk 13:39, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misc 

message: Does one credit Warner or Alex Moffat? Cake (talk) 14:16, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Spiral punt

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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I have just modified  on Glenn Scobey Warner. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I altered the first citation for Powers to show the complete title of the book. This is because when you click on the first "Powers" link it brings you down to citations with an entry that only has Powers last name not the full description of the cited entry. The first reference should contain the full title. My solution is not good because later a reference citation can be put above it, thus the problem comes back. It seems like part of the solution is to make it so that the full name of the cite (powers book in this case) appears in every powers cite pop up. I think that is what the pop up is for.Rybkovich (talk) 01:23, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure what this means to say I'm afraid. This might help. Cake (talk) 11:20, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Done! thanks for the link. Rybkovich (talk) 05:26, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Book Citations

message: In general what extra do all think should be done to take Pops to featured? Damn, just looked it up Stanford playing Notre Dame right now, that could have been a good reason. Rybkovich (talk) 01:35, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Never even tried to get one to FA myself, so I would fear hazarding a guess. Great point about Stanford playing Notre Dame. Had not even thought of that. Check out the play diagrams on e. g. page 116 in the oourses for players and coaches. Cake (talk) 02:47, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think we can do it. This is a featured article Angel of Death (Slayer song) if that is a featured article then I think we have a good chance with Pops. PS I am obligated to raise the Pappy Waldorf article to Pops' level, so it would be great if you could also participate. PSS I am a real good luck charm for stanford - in the past 7 years every time I watched them play, they won. Rybkovich (talk) 05:06, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Albert Exendine was lightning-fast and had connections with both Warner and Waldorf. Cake (talk) 11:21, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

text: Also you may have saw I tried to help Andy Smith along. Hard to think of a better classic matching of styles than that '25 rose bowl.  If I were to force expansion of Pop's article, there is probably extra room for more elaboration on the double wing. See. e. g. Pope for how much credit Warner seems to give it. Cake (talk) 16:17, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Awesome re getting the DYK [[DYK|WP=DYK]]

message: I nominated this article to be a featured article. You can find info at the very top of this page. Rybkovich (talk) 22:13, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Featured Article

message: The article currently attributes numerous inventions to Warner.  Such claims are often overstated, with the same development claimed by many individuals.  These claims should be viewed with skepticism and checked carefully.  A couple of them pop out at me without even doing much checking:
* Spiral pass - Sources I've seen generally credit Howard R. Reiter with developing the overhand spiral pass.  See discussion here. Other sources have credited Eddie Cochems or Bradbury Robinson with developing the spiral pass.
* Spiral punt - Alex Moffatt invented the spiral punt in 1883, when Warner was still a child. See  David M. Nelson. The Anatomy of a Game: Football, the Rules, and the Men who Made the Game. p. 53. Cbl62 (talk) 05:24, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: * Note, for example, that the Wikipedia article on Amos Alonzo Stagg credits him with inventing the reverse play in 1890 and the unbalanced line in 1900. These same innovations are also credited in this article to Warner. Cbl62 (talk) 05:38, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: * Bootleg play: I find no contemporaneous record of Warner having invented, developed or run the bootleg play. The earliest published references I find to the "bootleg play" date to its use by the 1922 Arizona Wildcats football team. E.g., here and here, and here. See also this one. Pop McKale, rather than Pop Warner, was the coach of the 1922 Arizona team. (Other sources credit Frankie Albert with inventing and/or perfecting the bootleg play. See here, here and "The Pro Football Historical Abstract" by Sean Lahman (saying of Albert: "His lasting legacy is the bootleg play, which he invented and perfected ...")). Cbl62 (talk) 13:57, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

text: Note that it says he early taught the spiral pass and spiral punt, not that he invented them. Will have to check further on the bootleg, as several sources mention it. No doubt invention is one of the tougher aspects. Stagg invented the end-around and the reverse; Warner invented the reverse run to the weak side. Cake (talk) 15:29, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article as currently written says the spiral pass and spiral punt were his "innovations".  This is inaccurate. Each of these "innovation" claims needs to be carefully vetted. Cbl62 (talk) 16:09, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it says he was one of the first to teach it, with which several sources agree, but it does need a finer comb. Cake (talk) 16:21, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  * What's the source on Pops coming up with the reverse run to the weak side? Rybkovich (talk) 16:22, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

text:  * Is that arizona description of a "bootleg" consistent with the modern definition of the term? He runs through the center not to the side right? Is running to the side key in the modern definition? What about that Utah one? Rybkovich (talk) 17:16, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  * And just what is the description of the "bootleg" play purportedly developed by Warner? Cbl62 (talk) 18:33, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Definitely required question re Warner's definition. But still, whats your take on the question re Arizona's? (and of the modern definition) Rybkovich (talk) 18:45, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

text:  Re spiral punt - The subsection is named "inventions" and "innovations" is directly below it, so the meaning of innovation is presented as invention. So change the name of the subsection to something broader? And put more info re his contribution to spiral passes and punts? Rybkovich (talk) 18:53, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

text: The huddle seems to have a number of claimants, such as Paul D. Hubbard, so let's scratch that one. Not sure what it means by "rolling block" or "series plays". The hidden-ball play is addressed in the article, and indeed the obituary suggests it is what one means by a "bootleg" so it might need to be removed. Presumably due to the single and double wing, twice it mentions an unbalanced line. In the 30s it seems if you have a balanced line you're playing Rockne-ball and unbalanced one you're playing Warner-ball. However, I could see Stagg as the proper inventor of it, and one should look into it further. The article sources The Anatomy of a Game which states: "using an unbalanced line, a wingback, and the other backs behind the strength of the unbalanced line, Warner was saying, "Here we come and you had better overshift to meet strength with strength." When opponents met  Warner's strength, he countered with reverses." I confess this doesn't state he invented it, but it addresses the most of what's been said previously. It seems Stagg was using it at Chicago around the turn of the century (and after I type this, I see his article says this exactly). Cake (talk) 17:02, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Since Powers is used for the bootleg source, I hope rybkovich can supply us with what he has to say.  Miller credits Warner with "the three-point stance for backfield men, the cross-body (or "Indian") block, the bootleg play, the screen pass, improvements to shoulder and thigh pads, improvements to tackling dummies and blocking sleds, and the use of deception over brute strength to gain the advantage over the opponent." Cake (talk) 17:07, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  As soon as I get the library transfer book I will double check all of the Powers cites. Rybkovich (talk) 04:26, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Still, what is referred to as bootlegs played by arizona are those bootlegs as defined today? ,? Rybkovich (talk) 17:16, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

text: The book Springville states he "was in nearly every case the originator and an early advocate of a few: single-wing formation, double-wing formation, three-point stance, numbered plays, jersey numbers, knee guards, fiber padding, early head gear, spiral punt, center snap to ball carrier, bootleg, reverse, screen, mouse trap (misdirection), rolling body block, hidden ball, free forward passing, and more." The Pop Warner Little Scholars book states he "is credited with introducing several major innovations to college football such as the spiral punt, the screen play, single and double-wing formations, the naked reverse, the three-point stance, the numbering on players' jerseys, and the use of shoulder and thigh pads."  Cake (talk) 17:11, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Re double pass. I reworded our previous long quote of what Jenkins wrote. Is this a correct rewrite? Jenkins wrote - " One piece of razzle-dazzle installed by Warner was the double pass: Quarterback Jimmie Johnson would toss the ball to a halfback sweeping laterally – who then tossed it back to him." Now we have " That year Warner began implementing the double pass. Carlisle's quarterback Jimmy Johnson would make a lateral pass to the halfback running towards the side, bringing the defense with him as he tossed the ball back to the fast running Johnson" Rybkovich (talk) 05:09, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: You might try "towards the sideline" or "around the end", and perhaps add a hyphen to "fast running" if that must be there, but aside from those minor things it looks fine. It could just as well be called a double-lateral before 1906. Almost immediately after 1906 it slowly came to mean what you'd expect of it today; namely, a long lateral pass (to the other end of the field helps) followed by a forward pass. Cake (talk) 05:13, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you. Rybkovich (talk) 06:02, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Mr. Cake - I thought about this and wanted to ask you to take out and re-write the Jenkins and Powers quotes we have. Right now, because they are several sentences long, they are too long not to be considered as copyright violations and this will come up when others will start reviewing the article for the Featured Article status. I am passing it on because I think that you are a better editor at dealing with the technics of the game issues. I originally put them all in because I thought, why not? I'm used to legal writing and quoting as much as you can is what its all about (legal decisions are not copyrightable). Rybkovich (talk) 06:01, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Invention claims 

message: Also need to double-check whether it's just lore or if Nevers really outrushed the Horsemen. I know he did well. Cake (talk) 17:19, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: There are no specific player stats but it seems right see LA Times 1, 9, and 12. Great source, I signed up for the 7 day free trial, I hope I don't forget to cancel. Rybkovich (talk) 04:21, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Nevers and the Four Horsemen

message: From the Chicago game against Stagg. Put it up? Maybe take out one of the team pics or not. https://www.loc.gov/item/2007663722/ great pic either way. Rybkovich (talk) 03:19, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Mesmerizing picture, but not sure of the relevance for Warner's article. Since that's Chicago's field, I added it to the 1907 Maroons page. Cake (talk) 04:42, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agree Rybkovich (talk) 04:51, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: 1907 chicago

message: We should have the list of the inventions and things he emphasized at the very top, I'd say second sentence. That was the common suggestion from two different FAC editors, I think it  makes sense, the usual passer by is only going to read two sentences at most, him reading that  "Included among his innovations are the single and double wing formations (precursors of the modern spread and shotgun formations), the three point stance as well as the body blocking technique.[" will make the reader go ha! and read more. Also you narrowed it way down, because some claims are arguable? You have them listed on innovations section so thats why i included them in the intro. We can put that "it is claimed" or something like that and keep them up them up there, since apparently he is associated with those things. Rybkovich (talk) 19:10, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Well arguable on the huddle yes and numbering plays also seems to be claimed by Stagg, etc. I would leave those out without further qualification. Prefer the structure of the lead now  I suppose, but you and the FAC editors know best. Cake (talk) 20:22, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  intro paragraph 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The description of this “school” is wrong. It was a place of “re-education” where Native American children were forcibly detained. It was a place of horrors. Your description is a “White Wash” of what really happened. 71.135.73.84 (talk) 10:58, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carlisle School