Talk:20-Hydroxyecdysone

message: The article currently says "The study concluded that supplementation with up to 200 mg per day had no effect." Citation 4
The study it points to says 200mg/day of 20-hydroxyecdysone in it's introduction, but further down the supplementation protocol says "100 mg/day of Polypodium Vulare/Suma root standardized for 30 mg of 20-hydroxyecdysone (E)" That's not only half the dose it said before, it's suddenly mostly herb not the pure compound.
So how much of the chemical in question did to subjects receive? 200mg, 100mg, 30mg? That's a massive discrepancy. 
(As an aside the dosages that some bodybuilders ascribe benefit to are 500-1000mg/day. It might be the only human study we've got but it was either underdosed or really underdosed. Informative value seems low.) SrJoben (talk) 01:33, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Dosage unclear in human study - Source appears inconsistent

message: I'm pretty sure that ecdysterones are non-androgenic and are not anabolic steroids. Currently ecdysterone "supplements" on the market are indicated for use to increase protein synthesis. Ecdysterone "supplements" on the market geared more toward muscle increase are usualy (commonly, mostly) "stacked" (within' the pill/powder/whatever) with other "supplements" such as Tribulus terrestris and pro-hormones (DHEA, Andostenediol, ect) leaving a large question mark as to wether or not ecdysterones have any significant effect on a human being at all. Furthermore there has been no significant research on ecdysterones, the bits of research that exist were not compiled through the combined efforts of experts but rather by one possibly bought, possible expert and a slew of researchers who's credentials and overall credibility is highly suspect, leaving a even larger question mark regarding their safety and effectiveness all together. I could be wrong but I did some quick research on ecdysterones just now and the information that I find is contradicting both this article and itself. - Mithotyn 16:07, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Finally returned to this page to find the tag and reasoning behind it. The problem is exactly as you described it. There is no unbiased information from reputable sources on human use of the drug. Lacking this, I fell back on the recommended procedure for Wikipedia — simply report what findings there are and cite sources. I completely agree with the factual accuracy tag. There's just not much I can do about it. GeeJo (t) (c) • 17:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Are there any negative side effects associated with the use of 20E? If does indeed function as an anabolic steroid in humans, or just by increasing testosterone production, then wouldn't it cause testicular atrophy?
Dan Asad 05:19, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Negative side effects 

message: There is additional information on the Rhaponticum page on research with the whole herb (also known as Lecuza) which contains 20-E.  The herb is an adaptogen which means that it is nontoxic in normal quantities, it generally benefits the HPA axis and the immune system and broadly benefits the body.  It is considered a food-grade herb as opposed to a toxic herb.  However it is important to realize that herbs are not the same as isolated constituents and the herb may be less toxic than any given constituent.
Ksvaughan2 18:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello Ksvaughan2. I looked at the new material that you added to Rhaponticum carthamoides. It appears that you went to some trouble to establish the correct botanical name, which is good. Most of your sources for the beneficial effects of the plant extracts seem to come from Eastern European researchers, for instance Bulgaria. Also you use the term 'adaptogen' that probably is a familiar term for herbalists but won't impress standard scientists, or be used in applications to the US Food and Drug Administration. I'm afraid that the Wikipedia article adaptogen looks like deletion bait, but someone who goes there and reads it will probably not be seriously misled, since they won't expect to find lab science. Since nobody has added anything useful to the present article for some time, your addition to Talk here is welcome, though I'm not sure I am convinced of the scientific support for the new info you've added over at Rhaponticum carthamoides. EdJohnston 20:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rhaponticum Research

message: Found this on trulyhuge.com:
BETA ECDYSTERONE
 
This plant extract can increase performance and muscle mass.
By Bryan Haycock, M.SC., C.S.C.S. 
Some of the greatest athletic achievements of the past century 
have come from the former Soviet Union and other countries of 
the Eastern Bloc. The training methods and practices of the 
government-run programs were closely kept secrets. Once 
the Cold War was over and the walls of communism began to 
fall, however, many of these secrets of the Eastern Bloc 
leaked out. Not only did we learn about their training 
practices but also of their experimentation and use of 
ergogenic aids to enhance sport performance. One of these 
secrets is the use of an extract from the Rhaponticum 
carthamoides plant. The active ingredient in Rhaponticum 
carthamoides is a compound called 20-hydroxyecdysone. The 
Russians classified it as an “adaptogen” because it enabled 
animals to resist the effects of physical stress. This may 
sound a lot like the way they classified ginseng, but don’t be
too quick to judge: The effects of 20-hydroxyecdysone far 
exceed those of ordinary ginseng. 
Twenty-hydroxyecdysone is a phytoecdysteroid, which is a 
type of phytosteroid. Phytosteroids are compounds that 
come from plants that have a steroidlike structure. 
Ecdysteroids were first discovered by a scientist named 
Peter Karlson in 1950. Scientists have since isolated more 
than 100 ecdysteroids, many of which occur not only in 
plants but also in insects. In fact, ecdysteroids are even 
found in viruses, as well as in parasitic worms and 
crustaceans (lobsters, crabs, etc.). 
Ecdysterone and Athletic Performance
Research has been done to explore the effects of 
phytoecdysteroids in mammals. Considering the structural 
similarity between plant steroid molecules and animal 
steroid molecules, it was speculated that these ecdysteroids 
might have hormonal effects in animals. To explore the 
“myotropic” (muscle-promoting) effects of ecdysterone,
 researchers tested two groups of animals, one using 
ecdysterone and the other using Russian dianabol (Dbol). It 
was shown that “ecdysterone, possessing a wider spectrum 
of the anabolic action on the contractile proteins of the 
skeletal muscles, exerts a more pronounced influence on 
physical endurance” than dianabol.  Now, that is a strong 
statement! Not only did the ecdysterone have a more 
pronounced effect on muscle performance, it also increased 
protein synthesis in a variety of slow- and fast-twitch fibers, 
whereas the dianabol only induced protein synthesis in 
slow-twitch fibers. 
After these promising results in animals, human trials were 
soon to follow. A study using 117 speed skaters showed that 
supplementation with ecdysterone increased total work 
capacity, VO2 max and body weight. Another study involving 
112 athletes demonstrated that within five days of taking 
ecdysterone, a reduction in over- training symptoms, such 
as fatigue, apathy and declining performance, was reported 
in approximately 90% of the athletes taking the supplement. 
Ecdysterone and Muscle Growth
I’m sure many of you are just as interested, if not more so, in 
muscle growth as you are in performance. Ecdysterone has 
also been shown to be a powerful anabolic in muscle tissue. 
In a study done at the Czech Academy of Sciences, quail 
were fed either the seeds of Leuzea carthamoides (known
 to contain ecdysterone) or a pure extract of ecdysterone 
from the seeds. They were able to show a dose response to 
the anabolic activity of ecdysterone, resulting in a 115% 
increase in body mass of the birds fed the pure extract. 
These same anabolic effects have also been documented 
in mice and rats. 
Of course, no one can expect you to believe that animal 
research guarantees that a supplement will work for you 
and me. Fortunately, human research with ecdysterone is 
also promising. In a study published in Scientific Sports 
Bulletin, researchers were able to show significant effects 
of ecdy-sterone on muscle mass and fat loss when combined 
with protein. Seventy-eight highly trained athletes were given 
either placebo, protein or ecdysterone with protein. The c
ombination of ecdysterone and protein resulted in up to a 
13% reduction in body fat and a 6% to 7% increase in muscle 
tissue. This was within a period of only 10 days. Later, 
researchers were able to show significant anabolic and 
fat-loss effects of ecdysterone during three weeks of training. 
What makes ecdysterone even more attractive is that it does 
not work through the endocrine (hormone) system. In other 
words, although it is anabolic like testosterone, it does not 
affect testosterone levels or work through testosterone 
receptors. This was both interesting and perplexing to early 
Russian scientists. Researcher V.N. Syrov of the Academy of 
Sciences of the Republic of Uzbekistan, who was involved in 
many of the ecdysterone studies, was able to show that 
ecdysterone does not increase the level of mRNA or 
blueprints for protein as testosterone does, but instead 
increases the rate of ribosomal activity. Ribosomes are 
cellular proteins that actually hook amino acids together to 
form new proteins. This has the effect of enabling the muscle 
cell to “work faster” to put amino acids together into protein 
chains.In addition to increasing performance and muscle mass, 
phytoecdysteroids have been shown to have beneficial 
effects on insulin sensitivity, arrhythmias and red blood-cell 
count. Clearly, phytoecdysteroids have tremendous potential 
as a dietary supplement. 
More Potent Than Ever Before
There was a time when extracts of ecdysterone were very 
weak, containing only about 10 to 12 mg of active ingredient 
per capsule. Today, the extracts have increased in potency 
up to 97% ecdysterone. This makes a tremendous difference 
in the effectiveness of phytoecdysteroids. To take advantage 
of this greater ability to synthesize proteins, an athlete must 
consume a high-protein diet and train intensely with heavy
 weights at the gym. This will serve two purposes: The high 
protein diet will ensure that there are plenty of amino acids 
available for the busy ribosomes, and the heavy training will 
guarantee that there are blueprints in the form of mRNA 
floating around for the ribosomes to work from. 
Ecdysterone is a valuable addition to the supplement 
market. There are more sports-nutrition options with real 
potential today than at any other time in history, so it’s an 
exciting time to be an athlete. With the right diet and 
training program, high-potency ecdysterone will take your 
muscle growth to a new level. 
Get the Most From Your Ecdysterone
Eat adequate protein. Try to get at least 1 gm of protein per 
lb of body weight per day while using ecdysterone supplements. 
Never miss your post-workout protein drink. This is the time 
when protein is used most extensively for muscle protein 
synthesis. Keep your weight loads heavy. Use rep ranges of 
6 to 8 while supplementing with ecdysterone. This will ensure 
that the boost in protein synthesis leads to real increases in 
muscle size and strength. Consume adequate calories. Eat 
at least 12 cal per lb of body weight each day.
.~.~.~.~.
The only thing I see here is that if you consume 1 gm of protein per lb of body weight and consume enough calories for muscle growth, you can definitely expect putting on massive pounds, unless you're already quite advanced.
:The above extremely lengthy comment, which sounds like advertising, I think ought to be deleted per WP:REFACTOR, because it does not propose any actual changes to the present article.  If no-one responds to my question here, I'll assume there is consensus to remove it.  EdJohnston 20:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thought you might find this interesting 

message: It's good somebody is trying to watch for new information. However, additional studies from eastern Europe are unlikely to be very convincing on this question. Those of us who aren't fluent in those languages can't read them, and it's hard to judge the scientific level. Any hormonal treatment is likely to have a multitude of effects, so treatment safety is a concern, and is unlikely to be covered well in a study of a handful of subjects. The eastern European studies are presumably small, because large studies are expensive. So I would vote that we wait for new large studies by reputable scientists published in Western languages before updating the article. EdJohnston 03:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reply to [[User:Encrypted Soldier]] 

message: 1. "It has been suggested as a disruptor to avian influenza which can be transmitted through such vectors." What vectors...? I suppose blood-feeding insects like mosquitos could transmit bird viruses, but even if they do I can't see how 20E could be usefully applied to prevent this. Production costs and metabolic instability mean that it isn't commercially feasible to use 20E as an insecticide in agriculture, veterinary science or medicine. The claim doesn't seem to be developed later in the article or to be referenced, so I think it should be demoted or deleted.
2. "It acts through a heterodimeric receptor comprising the ecdysone receptor and the ultraspiracle proteins (USP) to cause a positive nitrogen balance in the body".  No problems with any of that except for the last 6 words. In arthropds 20E causes moulting and metamorphosis, which is a little more dramatic than just affecting the nitrogen balance. If this claim refers to mammalian physiology, then 20E won't be acting through the EcR:USP heterodimer because mammals don't have these proteins. If - despite this - the claim about nitrogen balance is in respect of mammals, then I suspect it's controversial and (at the very least) should be demoted from the lead section to the relevant subsection. The true importance of 20E to biology is its pivotal role in arthropod development rather than its possible effects on mammals, and the lead section should reflect that.
If there's support (or no opposition) to these suggestions in a reasonable timeframe, then I'll make the changes.
LloydGraham (talk) 03:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two strange claims in lead section 

message: * Can this compound virilize castrated animals?
* Does it cause prostrate growth in animals?
* - Increase body weight in animals?
* - Increase nitrogen retention in humans?
* - Increase lean body mass in humans?
* - Affect testosterone levels in humans?
* What are the side effects observed in humans?
I don't know if there are studies availiable that can clarify this but if there are, the results should be referenced.
Another thing: this article is written somewhat like an advertisement. 93.161.104.161 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 12:59, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Things that should be clear when reading the article