Talk:Sound film

message: A few of the claims that I deleted or corrected:
* Despite the fact that synchronized sound technology had not substantially advanced in the previous five years: See the paragraph right above where that was. The introduction of condensor microphones and amplifier tubes made talking picture practical.
* The demand for The Jazz Singer was immense, almost unprecedented: Film historian Donald Crafton wrote,
::In its national first-run release, The Jazz Singer did well, judged by box-office receipts and the lengths of its runs, but it was in a distant second or third tier of attractions compared to the most popular films of the day and even other Vitaphone talkies.
* Silent films that were awaiting release, such as F.W. Murnau's Sunrise, were given a synchronized music track and sound effects: Sunrise was released with a Movietone sound track on 16 September 1927, two weeks before the release of The Jazz Singer.
* Other studios immediately began to produce sound films of their own: No other studio made a talking feature in 1927. In fact, no other studio released even a part-talking feature (RKO's The Perfect Crime) until August 1928, ten months after The Jazz Singer. — Walloon 06:40, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Jazz Singer and Sunrise

message: Instead of using terms like "feature-length talkie" to describe Griffith's Dream Street, which means different things to different people, and will cause confusion because to a lot of people "talkie" means dialogue and "feature-length" implies that it had sound throughout, why not use more precision to name what Dream Street was: the first feature-length film with sound sequences. — Walloon 11:18, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dream Street

message: I was in the proces of writing directly to Walloon, because I know of his particular interest in The Jazz Singer, when I discovered that he'd left this extensive message on the sound film article's Talk page. Below is my message exactly as sent to Walloon, reproduced here as a response to his reliance on Crafton:
:Hi, Walloon. I went over the Crafton material carefully and corrected a typo in the quote that appears in The Jazz Singer article. I didn't make any other changes to the article, but I want you to take a look at the data on The Jazz Singer b.o. I've added to the sound film article. The primary source I've gleaned this information from is:
:Glancy, H. Mark (1995). "Warner Bros. Film Grosses, 1921–51: The William Schaefer Ledger," Historical Journal of Film, Radio and Television, March (available online)—see, in particular, pages 4 and 5.
:The data, direct from Warner Bros.' internal records, pretty clearly refute Crafton. I currently say in the footnote, "By any measure, The Jazz Singer was one of the biggest films of the decade." I don't go into further detail, but not only was it Warners biggest film before The Singing Fool, but Hollywood's two leading studios put out only three higher-earning films before going fully into sound production in 1929: MGM with The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (1921) and Ben-Hur (1925); Paramount with The Covered Wagon (1923). Of course, earlier there was The Birth of a Nation (1915). As best I can determine, The Jazz Singer was the fifth biggest movie in Hollywood history before The Singing Fool surpassed it. That's a smash by any reckoning. 
:Crafton is a very smart writer and an able researcher, but I think it's clear he's picked and chosen certain data in order to advance a particular, tendentious argument in this case. There are worthwhile points in his ideological analysis of the promotion and reception of The Jazz Singer, but his fundamental argument simply doesn't hold up when you step back and look at the big picture. Crafton can't change the simple fact that The Jazz Singer was the fifth-biggest money-earner in Hollywood history, and the biggest Warners film ever, before The Singing Fool.
:Best, Dan—DCGeist 01:22, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Addendum: MGM's The Big Parade (1925) was also an enormous hit, making The Jazz Singer number 6 all time before The Singing Fool.—DCGeist 01:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps it would be helpful to analyze an example of Crafton's artful tendentiousness. Let's stop and think about this statement Walloon has quoted: "A review of the seat-adjusted gross receipts for these first Vitaphone programs reveals that the first two features [Don Juan and The Better 'Ole] outperformed The Jazz Singer." "Seat-adjusted gross receipts"?! I assure you, if we review "seat-adjusted" gross receipts, Little Miss Sunshine is outperforming Titanic. What Crafton avoids saying, as he cherry-picks data to his liking from different individual theaters and run periods, is that The Jazz Singer played long and strong all across the country--that's how it grossed $2.6 million, substantially more than any other movie released nationally in 1927.—DCGeist 02:31, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Success of ''The Jazz Singer''

message: The caption of the poster for Show Girl in Hollywood says, "The poster shows a camera shooting unboothed and unblimped—simply unrealistic." It isn't unrealistic if the camera is shooting a musical number with a prerecorded playback. The Broadway Melody, filmed in 1928, pioneered that technique. I would have written, "The camera, unboothed and unblimped, may be shooting a musical number with a prerecorded soundtrack." — Walloon 05:11, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent observation! Thanks, Walloon. —DCGeist 05:13, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Show Girl in Hollywood

message: Our article on Anny Ondra says that she played in forty sound films, but this article says:
:Ondra's British film career was over
--Error 22:37, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Anny Ondra

message: User:DCGeist asks me for references on the section on Hollywood foreign-language versions.
I just wrote what I remembered from the documentary Pioneros en Hollywood apparently bittorrentable from this not-safe-for-work page that I watched in La 2 on 15 October.
Some more info:
*Luis Buñuel was disappointed for some reason, and after two weeks he appeared at the studio only on Saturdays to get his cash, and expended the rest of his stage as a paid Californian vacation.
*There was an interesting prison film whose name I forgot with mass scenes (of course, taken from the original version) of prisoners parading on the yard that seemed Expressionist.
*There was a statistic of foreign-language films shot in (Hollywood?/Joinville?) that I remember that included 1 Japanese film and 4 Croatian ones.
--Error 23:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Parallel language versions

message: American studios found that many of their early sound productions were falling short of expectations in foreign-language markets. With quality post-dubbing not yet technologically possible, parallel foreign-language versions were made for a time.
Around 1930, the American companies  opened a production facility in Joinville-le-Pont, France, where the same sets and wardrobe and even mass scenes were used by different crews sharing studio time. Foreign unemployed actors, playwrights, and winners of beauty contests were also brought to Hollywood, where they shot parallel versions of the English-language films. These parallel versions had lower budgets in almost all cases; they tended to be shot at night and directed by second-line American directors who did not speak the foreign language. Among those in the Spanish-language crews who would go on to later fame were Luis Buñuel, Enrique Jardiel Poncela, and Edgar Neville.
The productions were not very successful in their intended markets:
*The lower budgets were apparent.
*Many theater actors had no previous experience in cinema.
*The original movies were often second-rate themselves, since studios expected that the top productions would sell by themselves.
*The mix of foreign accents (Castilian, Mexican, Chilean for example in the Spanish case) was odd for the audiences.
*Some markets lacked sound-equipped theaters.
In spite of the production obstacles, a few parallel versions, such as the Spanish-language version of Dracula compare favorably with the originals.
—DCGeist 05:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Parallel-language films

message: Great article, but I have some comments about the lead. According to WP:LEAD, it should summarise the whole article. The actual one focuses too much on regional scenes and ignores the whole "Consequences" section. Could someone fix it? Thank you. CG 11:58, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, the lead doesn't ignore the whole "Consequences" section at all; rather, via a survey of the most important regional scenes, it covers the most important thematic points in the "Consequences" section in a clear and accessible way. Here is the actual primary guideline from WP:LEAD: "The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and describing its notable controversies, if there are any." If it ain't broke... —DCGeist 13:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead 

message: .. that Józef Tykociński was first synchronzed sound on film, . --Smokefoot 17:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, not quite. Eugene Lauste received the first patent for a sound-on-film system in 1907. In addition, Tykociński's process--like Lauste's--clearly went nowhere commercially. However, the reference you provide, as well as another one available via the Wikipedia article on Tykociński suggest that he did give the first-ever public demonstration of sound-on-film, beating out the Tri-Ergon team by three months. I'll do a little more research on the matter and then figure out how to fit him into the article.—DCGeist 18:15, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Done. Thank you.—DCGeist 19:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: In terms of pioneers, I had heard that ...

message: One of the best FA's in Wikipedia I have ever read! Truly what a great encyclopedic article should be: comprehensive, informative and entertaining to read.  23:03, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fantastic!!! 

message: An explanation of how “the encoding of sound and its inscription directly onto image-bearing celluloid” actually makes sounds would be helpful, since this is the title of the article. 
Thus: “the sound track was photographically recorded and printed on to the side of the strip of motion picture film” – how does it end up making sound? 
Similarly – “the variable-area RCA Photophone and Western Electric's own variable-density process”:  what does variable-area and variable-density mean and how do they produce sound? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Teneriff (talk • contribs) 03:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Information Needed 

message: I don't get it with notes #3 and #6. Can someone tell me what book its referring to? All it says is "Altman (2005), p. 158" and "Altman (2005), p. 158–165." I am guessing its "Rick Altman" and the book is "Silent film sound"? Can anyone tell me if I'm correct or wrong? Thanks.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.34.106.100 (talk) 00:39, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a slight problem with presuming Silent Film Sound is the publication, as it is published by Columbia University Press, 2004, but Altman doesn't seem to have a more recent publication, so probably the 2005 in the article is wrong? The second part of note #3 is Roland Cosandey, Who's Who of Victorian Cinema: A Worldwide Survey, ed. Stephen Herbert and Luke McKernan, BFI, 1996. 86.42.124.92 00:59, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Original edition: copyright 2004, publication date 2005. Revised edition: 2007. — Walloon 01:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Was this perhaps an omission (or deletion) from the references section? Girolamo Savonarola 01:07, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep--one or the other. I've put it (back?) in.—DCGeist 06:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.34.106.100 (talk) 15:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notes problem 

message: Current article has this in it: "Clara Bow's speaking voice was sometimes blamed for the demise of her brilliant career, but the truth is that she was too hot to handle.[77]" Is this intended? --BHC (talk) 11:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I support your rewrite on the Dietrich caption. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 14:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism - Clara Bow 

message: The article calls it '"The earliest sound film to make most latter-day shortlists for "greatest movie ever made."' What "latter-day shortlists" is this referring to? Who writes them? What constitutes most of them? Without clarification and citation, it comes across as assigning an opinion to an anonymous source. My  tag was reverted without an explanation.
24.34.93.81 (talk) 19:12, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claim about L'Atalante needs clarification and citation 

message: I have placed this page up for review. There are a number of comments that are clearly un-encyclopedic, and are more fitting to a personal web site. The caption speculating about the Marlene Dietrich is only one example. Poor writing that incorporates opinion, speculation and attempts at narrative humor. 
I would also say the page's 'Featured Article' status from 2006, should be re-evaluated.
(24.62.100.100 (talk) 23:45, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think, overall, the POV tag may not be appropriate.  There may be some statements that are overly flowery in tone but the article as a whole is not editorially slanted.  If a tag must be used, I think it should be, simply, .  But better is to simply fix the phrasing of these sentences one at a time through normal editing.  Mangojuicetalk 13:21, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality of Article

message: I'm not sure if this would go better under "Commerce" or "Cinematic form", but didn't the emergence of the sound feature film spur the development of an entire movie genre--the musical? This point is addressed in the discussion of developments in India, but perhaps could be made clearer in terms of the West. DocKino (talk) 10:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Done—and goes very well with accompanying image in Commerce.—DCGeist (talk) 22:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The musical 

message: I received a message on my own Talk page that is most fruitfully posted here. I reproduce it in its entirety.—DCGeist (talk) 23:50, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I fail to see the point of this. The relevant information is already reflected in the article (see, e.g., "In 1925, Warner Bros., then a small Hollywood studio with big ambitions...; "Most American movie theaters, especially outside of urban areas, were still not equipped for sound [in 1929] and the studios were not entirely convinced of the talkies' universal appeal—through mid-1930, the majority of Hollywood movies were produced in dual versions, silent as well as talking. Though few in the industry predicted it, silent film as a viable commercial medium in the United States would soon be little more than a memory"). The article notes as well that "Warner Bros. acquired a controlling interest" in First National in late 1928; the fact that "the present Warner premises was originally the First National lot" is irrelevant to the topic of this article, which is the history of sound film. The specific issue that came up in the article last week was whether the February premiere of Warners' When A Man Loves marked a significant step in the development of film sound. The answer is no, not particularly. It involved no technological advance over Don Juan and made less of an impact at the box office. Adding a mention of it would only weaken the article's focus and narrative flow.—DCGeist (talk) 23:50, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  When A Man Loves 

message: A short film about Conchita Piquer, a world famous Spanish singer at that time, was produced using the DeForest Phonofilm sound-on-film process, in 1923, and was officially released in 1925. The info on IMDB  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.4.46.91 (talk) 08:37, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: First sound film

message: This fine article could do with a few examples of the subject. Old out-of-copyright sound film clips shouldn't present too much of an obstacle to find. Skomorokh 01:33, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Could use some sound film 

message: The Martin and Osa Johnson page claims "In late 1934 the Johnsons participated in a promotion for Baboona. Celebrated WWI "Ace of Aces" Eddie Rickenbacker was enlisted to fly an Eastern Air Lines plane round-trip between Newark and Miami. In the process they set a new speed record and Baboona became the first sound movie to be shown during flight."  There's no citation.  Is this information correct? It seems a little late considering the first in-flight silent movie was either 1921 or 1925 according to this YouTube clip, and sound films had been around a fair few years before 1934. 86.159.192.149 (talk) 15:29, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  First in-flight sound film? 

message: The statement in the lead, in the context of the early 1930s, that "In Europe (and, to a lesser degree, elsewhere) the new development was treated with suspicion by many filmmakers and critics, who worried that a focus on dialogue would subvert the unique aesthetic virtues of soundless cinema" does not seem to be supported by the content.  The article describes the enthusiastic adoption of talkies in several countries.  It adds "Throughout much of Europe [in the 1930s], conversion of exhibition venues lagged well behind production capacity, requiring talkies to be produced in parallel silent versions or simply shown without sound in many places", but that is not at all the same as "treating with suspicion".  The article mentions adverse effects on musicians and some performers - again, not the same thing.  The article does mention the doubts of Jack Warner and Viktor Shklovsky (in 1926 and 1927, not the 1930s).  It mentions (undated) comments of Hitchcock criticising "many early sound movies" - not at all the same as treating the new development with suspicion.  The sole support is Paul Rotha's comment in 1930 - hardly "many filmmakers and critics".
A better summary would be "In Europe talkies were adopted enthusiastically", with a sentence at the end of the second para such as "Some filmmakers and critics, in the United States and elsewhere, doubted whether the new development would be a commercial or aesthetic success, but by 1930 talkies had achieved critical approval as well as profitability." --Mhockey (talk) 22:47, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Talkies treated with suspicion? 

message: fyi--Gozor136 (talk) 14:13, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  New internal link: [[Phonoscène]]

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thread_title: File:OndraBlackmailProductionPhoto.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

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I have just modified 6 external links on Sound film. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100103075638/http://www.filmportal.de/df/37/Artikel,,,,,,,,EF98757B0E65695AE03053D50B37602C,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.html to http://www.filmportal.de/df/37/Artikel,,,,,,,,EF98757B0E65695AE03053D50B37602C,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100103075704/http://www.filmportal.de/df/7e/Artikel,,,,,,,,EF992FAA6ECA7B3CE03053D50B3774EB,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.html to http://www.filmportal.de/df/7e/Artikel,,,,,,,,EF992FAA6ECA7B3CE03053D50B3774EB,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100103075654/http://www.filmportal.de/df/62/Artikel,,,,,,,,EF9954E0C4F28CC5E03053D50B3779A5,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.html to http://www.filmportal.de/df/62/Artikel,,,,,,,,EF9954E0C4F28CC5E03053D50B3779A5,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100103075633/http://www.filmportal.de/df/22/Artikel,,,,,,,,EF98BF4FCFCE0DF9E03053D50B376840,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.html to http://www.filmportal.de/df/22/Artikel,,,,,,,,EF98BF4FCFCE0DF9E03053D50B376840,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110318010115/http://www.filmportal.de/df/cb/Artikel,,,,,,,,EF98F54418F0509CE03053D50B376EAF,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.html to http://www.filmportal.de/df/cb/Artikel,,,,,,,,EF98F54418F0509CE03053D50B376EAF,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110318010028/http://www.filmportal.de/df/03/Artikel,,,,,,,,EF98DCB2FE1D928AE03053D50B376C3B,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.html to http://www.filmportal.de/df/03/Artikel,,,,,,,,EF98DCB2FE1D928AE03053D50B376C3B,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.html
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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:18, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: This article entirely glosses over a third system besides sound-on-film and sound-on-disc, which was sound-on-film aka "twoband" or "double system" to record livesound, with the following milestones:
*1954: Pilottone
*1957: Neo pilottone (introduced with the Nagra III tape recorder). By the early 1960s, many 16mm and Regular8 cameras were on the market (especially in Western Europe) with either pilottone or neo pilottone capabilities. By the late-1960s, there were also a number of Super8 cameras using either pilottone or neo pilottone (notably, the two Leitz cameras Leicina Super and Leicina Special), up until Kodak came up with an ownmagnetic sound-on-film system for Super8 in 1972/73. Pilottone cameras could be used either with reel-to-reel recorders, or with more consumer-friendly cassette tape recorders, made by companies such as Nagra, Uher, and Stellavox.
*By the mid-1980s, twoband was largely replaced with SMPTE timecode.
According to sources such as , the early 1980s saw a peak demand in commercial lip-sync copying of old two-band film sound recordings onto magnetic sound-on-film systems, probably because the old twoband playback gear was starting to fall apart and was not being serviced anymore. These commercial services required machinery that could properly decode aka "resolve" the pilottone sync signal in order maintain lip-sync while copying the sound onto sound-on-film. --2003:EF:170E:A495:98E8:44D9:627:9617 (talk) 04:19, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sound-on-tape 

message: The introduction says that The Jazz Singer was the first feature film originally presented as a talkie. However, Der Brandstafter was also a feature film, wasn't it? Should that be corrected or is there something I am missing?Tojaw (talk) 09:43, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  First talkie: The Jazz Singer or Der Brandstifter? 

message: There is no mention of him, who had a patent that expired in 1924 and was stoled by Fox.
So typical for anglosaxon 79.30.170.34 (talk) 08:50, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Giovanni Rappazzo