Talk:Lachin

message: Should this page not be called Berdzor, as this is the common name now used to refer to the town? I would suggest the same for Khojavend/Martuni and Kalbajar/Karvachar but rather than make a post on every talk page I thought I would post here. The road connecting the town to Karabakh is still known as the Lachin corridor in Armenia (I believe) but the town is called Berdzor. Nathan868 (talk) 13:18, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Common name / page rename 

message: Despite being part of the corridor, it is going to be handed to Azerbaijan. FYI. Beshogur (talk) 16:35, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The source mentions the Lachin District, not the corridor specifically. Is there any part in the article indicating this that I missed? — CuriousGolden  (T·C)  16:39, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: https://news.am/rus/news/615744.html According to Armenian sources it will be handed over to Azerbaijan, one thing is certain Armenian administration will not remain in the town 80.76.168.114 (talk) 07:39, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: While the Lachin district has been scheduled for transfer to Azerbaijan on December 1st as part of the ceasefire agreement, the Lachin corridor (Lachin, Sus, Zabux) is to be secured by Russian peacekeepers and its status remains a bit more unclear. The town of Lachin has not been handed over to Azerbaijan, residents and the mayor remain in Lachin/Berdzor, however, authorities have changed their announcements to residents recently regarding the possibility of staying in the town:    AntonSamuel (talk) 07:59, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

text: , WP:RS. Beshogur (talk) 11:03, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  The WP:ONUS is on the editor that wishes to make controversial additions to the article - to provide reliable sources supporting them. However, the sources that were provided did not substantiate the claim regarding the town's handover - only the surrounding Lachin district. I simply provided sources here which disputes the claim of the town being handed over. AntonSamuel (talk) 11:08, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

text: As I can see from Liveuamap - this was a new proposal by Aliyev - not a part of the ceasefire deal.  You need to provide sources that substantiate that the town has been handed over to Azerbaijan. AntonSamuel (talk) 12:05, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I cannot even access to the link of liveumap, oh what a credible source! You should provide a credible source indicating the city is in Artsakh, can you even provide a source for Fictitious Artsakh?! Aliyev read the agreeement, so the source is the agreement. If it was a lie, other leaders would comment on that. Aydan B-va (talk) 12:09, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Remember to stay civil, as I mentioned above, those that wish to make controversial changes have the responsibility for providing reliable sources that substantiate the additions on Wikipedia. Here is a direct source for the Aliyev statement: , here is another report from an Armenian news service regarding the town most likely staying under Artsakh civil administration, protected by Russian peacekeepers - at least for the next couple of years:  AntonSamuel (talk) 12:14, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: You see he says ‘the deadline is indicated here’. I have watched the video, he was indicating the agreement. Armenian news services can say many things. ‘Most likely’ is not credible either.  Aydan B-va (talk) 12:19, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

text: There is no Armenian left there, which kind of civils they will administrate.  Aydan B-va (talk) 12:20, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I can't really understand what you meant with your statement. However I don't believe that this matter is too complicated - in order for us to change the article to indicate that Lachin/Berdzor is under Azerbaijani control (civil or military or both), this needs to be confirmed by reliable, neutral third-party sources per WP:NPOV and WP:RS. AntonSamuel (talk) 12:27, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

text: Yes, this was reported on Liveuamap as well:  They apparently passed through Lachin/Berdzor and Zabux/Aghavno, hoisted flags and then they left. AntonSamuel (talk) 12:27, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:   come on man, really? Beshogur (talk) 12:28, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

text: apparently the journalists taking those picture is saying that.  Beshogur (talk) 12:31, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, that's what the Liveuamap report said. However, if there is cause to think that there has been some unexpected turn of events that conflict with the reports I've linked to so far, this can be discussed. However, until the situation clears up a bit more and we get confirmation from third-party sources that the town indeed has been handed over and the Armenian population and administration has been fully evacuated, it's prudent to refrain from altering the article to indicate that it has been handed over to Azerbaijan. AntonSamuel (talk) 12:33, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

text: That the town of Lachin/Berdzor was under the de facto control of Armenian forces/the Republic of Artsakh before the ceasefire is not controversial - what needs to be proven is that the town and the Lachin corridor would have been turned over to Azeri control - and as far as I have seen with regard to all the sources that have been provided - it hasn't been. AntonSamuel (talk) 13:36, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

text: Again, reliable and neutral third-party sources are needed. So far they have not been provided. I believe that I've explained enough at this point. AntonSamuel (talk) 14:02, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

text: Lachin is neither de facto nor legally controlled by Armenians. Currently, Russian peacekeepers control the city and the territory of the Lachin corridor.--Qolcomaq (talk) 19:25, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

text: Anton Samuel What we need to discuss is that everything is known, whether de facto or juridical.Qolcomaq (talk) 19:30, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

text: The city is certainly not controlled by Armenians. Armenian flags are removed, and Azerbaijani flag was raised over the city administration building. That certainly proves that the city is not controlled by Armenians, and moreover, that it is under at least nominal Azerbaijani control.  Grandmaster 22:02, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I've seen the reports from AFP about Azerbaijani troops passing through Lachin and doing a photo-op with flags, featured on Liveuamap as well: , about the Artsakh mayor and hundreds of Armenian residents staying in the village as well as the Russians ordering all flags (Armenian and Azerbaijani) to be lowered  which casts the claim into doubt about joint Azerbaijani-Russian control of the Lachin corridor. Aliyev made a speech stating that Lachin city is not currently under Azerbaijani control, that his position was that another corridor should be built around the city in the upcoming years . If we can find neutral and reliable third-party sources clearly stating that the Azerbaijanis have control of the Lachin corridor - that is another matter. However, unless there is clear confirmation that Azerbaijan has assumed control over the Lachin corridor and Lachin town in some manner - the status quo should remain. The burden of proof is on those that want to make controversial additions/changes to the article, not the other way around. AntonSamuel (talk) 22:23, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a source that Lachin is under de-facto Armenian control? On what basis do you make such an assumption? What is your source for that info? I wrote that Lachin is under control of Russian peacekeepers (supported even by sources that you quote), and you changed it to Armenian control. Please explain your edit. Grandmaster 22:32, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

text:  This is not a reliable source:  If the Armenian flag is removed, as your own source confirms, how the place could be under Armenian control? That defies logic. Grandmaster 22:34, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, the burden of proof is on those that want to make controversial additions/changes to the article, not the other way around. That the town of Lachin was under the de facto control of Armenian forces/the Republic of Artsakh before the ceasefire is not controversial - what needs to be proven is that the town and the Lachin corridor would have been turned over to Azeri control - and as far as I have seen with regard to all the sources that have been provided - it hasn't been. What I reverted was the edits on the Lachin corridor articles that removed the mention of Artsakh de facto control and a indicated a handover to Azerbaijan without proper neutral and reliable sources. AFP is certainly a reliable source, and is listed as such here: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources AntonSamuel (talk) 22:40, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The burden of proof is on anyone supporting certain information in the article. If you claim Armenian control, please provide your source. If you don't have a source for that claim, it should go. Grandmaster 22:42, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never disputed that the situation remains unclear at the moment - if you wish to add further clarification of the ambiguity that exists right now regarding what the exact state of affairs is with regard to the de facto civil/military administration, go ahead. Regarding sources for the mayor and residents staying behind, I've given one Armenian news source , here is another , this French news source  also discusses the matter of the lack of clarity regarding borders in NK/Artsakh in general at the moment. I will continue to look for information as the situation develops further. AntonSamuel (talk) 22:57, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: If it is unclear, how can you claim that it is under Armenian control? Where's logic? And where's you source for Armenian control? If Armenian mayor stayed there, it does not mean that he has powers, he is just a private person now. The only thing that is certain is that the town is under the control of Russian peacekeepers, and that is the only info that should be in the article. Grandmaster 23:00, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The logic: I have not seen any reports of a Russian or Azerbaijani takeover of the civilian administration of Lachin, Sus and Zabux. Therefore, even if flags have been lowered at the municipality building in Lachin - if any civilian governmental services are provided within the Lachin corridor region for the population that remains - they are most likely provided by Artsakh/Armenia, since at least some of their administration remains. AntonSamuel (talk) 23:06, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: That certainly does not mean control, because it is not even known if that mayor provides any services. And since you have no source for Armenian control, that info cannot remain. The only thing that we can confirm with reliable sources is that Russian peacekeepers patrol the road in the town. And that is the only thing that we can include with the reference to reliable sources. Any personal assumptions as to who has de-facto control cannot be included. Grandmaster 23:16, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is one of the clearest summaries of situation and the lack of clarity that exists right now:  “The [ceasefire] agreement makes clear that they can live here indefinitely,” Alaverdian told RFE/RL’s Armenaian Service. “There are no questions about the civilian population. There is a little uncertainty about local government bodies but I think that will be cleared up in the coming days.” "Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev said, meanwhile, that Baku intends to regain control of the town as well and will therefore seek the construction of a new Armenia-Karabakh road section bypassing it."AntonSamuel (talk) 23:37, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

text: Here is the article in Armenian  with a clip with the head of the Kashatagh Province, Mushegh Alaverdian in Lachin:  with Azeri military vehicles being escorted through the town, as well as scenes of the civilian population. AntonSamuel (talk) 23:49, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Those sources do not say anything about Armenian control. Quite the contrary, that person has no idea what's gonna happen. How could that be used to support a claim for Armenian de-facto control? Grandmaster 23:52, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It shows continued operation and presence of the Artsakh civilian government in the Lachin corridor to some extent. AntonSamuel (talk) 23:55, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It does not. It just shows one confused guy hanging around and having no idea who he is now. Grandmaster 00:09, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I certainly do not agree with that assessment, from what I've seen so far it seems that the probable state of affairs currently is that the Artsakh administration continues to operate to at least to some degree. AntonSamuel (talk) 00:24, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

text: Yes, I've seen that video showing Azerbaijani soldiers doing a photo-op on their way through Lachin with a Russian escort  before, it's also been mentioned in this thread. An AFP journalist present at the time stated that "Azerbaijani soldiers make a quick stop in Lachin to take a few pics, then leave."  You can see that it's the same location, with the same billboards. That the Azerbaijani soliders passed through with a Russian escort was also reported by France24:  AntonSamuel (talk) 21:27, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not a reliable source. It was not a photo op, Azerbaijani soldiers do not leave after they raised the flag, even though Armenian government claimed that. Wherever Azerbaijani flag was raised it still flies. France24 does not say that Azerbaijani troops left Lachin. Have you noticed that you are the only one claiming de-facto Armenian control, while there are at least 5 other editors who disagree with you? At this point what you do is a violation of WP:DIS and WP:CON. Grandmaster 23:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

text: Here's another source: According to the terms of the trilateral agreement, the Lachin Corridor is an area 5 kilometers wide, the Azerbaijani army is not allowed to enter the area and it should remain under the control of the Russian peacekeeping forces.  The same source says that despite that Azerbaijani army entered the town, and Armenian flag was removed. Here it says that the corridor is controlled by Russian peacekeepers: But the question of the settlements located along the Lachin corridor controlled by Russian peacekeepers remains open.  Grandmaster 01:09, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

text: And this is an official statement from Russian MOD spokesman Igor Konashenkov: Российскими миротворцами контролируется Лачинский коридор шириной пять километров. The 5-kilometer-wide Lachin corridor is under the control of Russian peacekeepers.  It is quite obvious that the corridor and the town are under the control of the Russian peacekeepers. Grandmaster 01:20, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Handed to Azerbaijan 

message: : Note: the following diffs are disputed: [08:45, Nov 5][02:47, Oct 31][10:06, Oct 30][05:32, Oct 30][08:34, Oct 29][02:24, Oct 29] --AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 17:58, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a very obvious case of WP:SOAPBOX not relevant to the overall subject of the article. The looting is already mentioned and does not need to go into explicit detail, especially from journalists speaking in a sensationalist tone. Brock's article is quite poorly written; he briefly summarizes the war starting when "Nagorno-Karabakh’s Armenians finally rose up" and makes no mention of the Askeran clash and Sumgait pogrom. --Steverci (talk) 02:49, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see why looting and burning cannot be described in more detail. It is not sensationalist details, the journalists described what they saw, and you remove multiple reliable sources. And I don't see how Brock's article is poorly written. It is a report from a war zone, he does not have to report every event that happened in the past. Not a reason for removal of a third party source. Grandmaster 09:06, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it's undue and not encyclopedic to include every single known WP:PRIMARY source. Brock writes for Maclean's, a Canadian pop culture magazine meant to  "entertain but also inspire its readers". And the fact there is no other information about him, not even another Maclean's webpage, is further indication he is not very credible. --Steverci (talk) 02:32, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You removed large chunks of text taken from 3 different sources. The Guardian is a very reputable source, and Steele is an award winning journalist. Maclean's is not a pop-culture magazine, it extensively covers international affairs:  And there is no requirement in wiki rules that biography of every news reporter should be available on the Internet. Grandmaster 09:07, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Because the History section spans about 3000 years and descriptions of furniture and refrigerators are not relevant to the wider subject of the article. There could be thousands of eye witnesses, and we simply don't have to room to include all of their personal recollections, nor is that what Wikipedia is for. Maclean's has an enormous Controversy section and has literally been called sensationalist by Jean Charest. --Steverci (talk) 02:22, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Grandmaster you restored your recent additions, but the questions raised by Stevereci previously remain valid: How are furniture and refrigerator descriptions valid to be included in a section that has over 3000 years old history? As pointed out above, there could be thousands of eyewitnesses, are we ought to include every personal recollections? How do these serve encyclopedic purposes? And again, Maclean has an enormous controversy section. I'm going to ask for a third opinion, judging from this conversation, it should've been done earlier. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 09:34, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It is included in the section about first Karabakh war. What does it have to do with 3000 years of history, I don't understand. Eyewiteness testimonies from 3 different foreign journalists have a direct relation to the occupation of the town in 1992. And Macleans is a reliable source, even the closing admin at AE said that:  Every news source has a controversy section. I don't mind if this is taken to dispute resolution. Grandmaster 09:44, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because no one noticed in another article's section or opened a discussion about it, doesn't mean it's a valid inclusion or serves encyclopedic purposes here. Again fridges/refrigerator descriptions are unnecessary details in a history section, in a section with over 3000 years of history, how in the hell it adds importance or relevancy to the article? Closing admin's opinion isn't some final nail btw, Maclean still has a significant controversy section, and if needed I'll take it to RSN. If we ought to include every eyewitness personal account, how in any scenario it adds encyclopedic improvement or purpose to the article? ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:09, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

text: I took this to WP:THIRD. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:22, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That is OK, an outside opinion might be useful. And 3000 years of history is not a valid argument. Every period has its own section, and first war has nothing to do with the ancient history, which btw deserves a separate consideration, because there are quite a few questionable sources there. And New York Times also has a big controversy section, it does not make it unreliable. In fact, every major news outlet has been involved in some controversy, that in itself is not a reason to dismiss them. Grandmaster 10:36, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: How is it looting if you own the goods? If you move your chicken from your house to another house in a safer country, is that looting? Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:31, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: If you take someone else's chicken, it is looting. But most importantly, the sources call it looting. Many of the looters came from Armenia, and looted goods were shipped there. The titles of news reports speak for themselves: "Armenia's looters follow its troops into Azerbaijan", or "Armenian looters burn down village". Grandmaster 13:41, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Also, destruction of the entire town is one of the most significant events, if not the most significant event in the history of the town. It cannot be reduced to a short mention that it was looted in burned in 1992. We need to provide a detailed information on how exactly it happened. Grandmaster 15:10, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The reporter asked the man with the chicken under his arm if he was the owner of that chicken? O r did the reporter assume that all stuff in a war zone is war / crime? If a man wants to burn his own house and it presents non danger to his neighbour's house, isn't he entitled to do it? Do reporters ask people setting fire to houses if they happen to own those houses? Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:03, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you think Armenians came to Lachin with their own chicken? Lachin had no Armenian population before 1992. And we should not engage in original research. We can only write what the sources say. Grandmaster 16:25, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:OR is bad. But blind belief in sources that fail to look into basic questions is also bad. Skepticism about sources is good, especially when it concerns sources with improbable conclusions about men with chickens under their arms. Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:48, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, but that is not how Wikipedia works. Especially when we have multiple sources that say the same thing. Grandmaster 18:46, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This discussion is becoming fruitless; whether to include details on looting or not is a subject to consensus; regards AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 19:18, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Looting 

message: I've tried twice, to add the RFC template. But legobot keeps deleting it. GoodDay (talk) 21:21, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: GoodDay Hi and thanks for helping. What would you suggest doing then? ZaniGiovanni (talk) 09:06, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Everything's alright now. I was getting the dates mixed up, mis-reading 4 December 2020 as 4 December 2021. GoodDay (talk) 09:07, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

text: Thanks for heads up. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 16:21, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Legobot messed up

message: Responding per request at WP:RFCL. As a statement of transparency: I've not edited this article before and as far as memory serves I have never edited any article related to the conflict. Please do not add further comments. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 02:37, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Closing (end note)

message: I propose to move this section into Lachin District as its sources basically point out to the "district" instead of the city:  It's not directly WP:RELEVANT to article's subject. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 16:04, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, sources on the district should be kept separately from the sources on the article. However, I checked, and the sources are actually on the town, not the district. Grandmaster 16:39, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Agreed with proposal. Sources seem to be about район (district) of Lachin and its demographics. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 20:14, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Agree with proposal. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:19, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

text: My apologies.| I've checked the sources. The data is given relative to the city. I withdraw this proposal and close discussion. The  should be kept. --AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 13:41, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demographics 

message: This town is under sovereignty of Azerbaijan, de facto and de jure both. The so called "Berdzor" naming should be deleted or transfer. 78.190.238.171 (talk) 21:18, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Co-name of Berdzor should be deleted