Talk:Little Willie

message: new article(Uber555 23:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The 1915 date is correct; the month is more dubious. September 1916 was of course the month tanks were first used in combat; this seems a probable explanation for the mistake.--MWAK 16:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The question of the crew is hypothetical, since the vehicle was only ever test-driven. No crew numbers were actually specified for the No. 1 Machine or Little Willie while they were under construction. Stern says the armament "consisted of" a 2pdr, a Maxim, and "several" Lewis or Hotchkiss guns to be fired through the portholes, but as none was fitted, that was all notional. However, it implies that the crew in practice would have been 6 at the least.
On the other hand, Little Willie didn't need four men to drive her, since there were no secondary gears to be operated. They were introduced only in the much heavier Mother.Hengistmate (talk) 16:03, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. I missed that :o).--MWAK (talk) 12:15, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crew, etc. 

message: Length as given in feet (26' 6") and meters (5.87m) does not match.  Which is correct? Is 26 feet 6 inches optimistic for Little Willie?Everiverever (talk) 14:39, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: B T White has  for Little Willie with the improved tracks and steering wheels. (p18) Tank Museum give 5.87 m for it as it stands now without its steering tail. GraemeLeggett (talk) 17:54, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Length 

message: I have a hunch the song "Little Willy" by the British rock band Sweet was about this tank.  No matter what they did, Willy kept getting stuck in the trenches and they had to leave it behind.  Any thoughts on this? Freedom2choose (talk) 06:05, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Song 

message: Swinton says that the name "Centipede" was already applied to the wooden mock-up of the rhomboid when it was shown to him on Sept 19th. (Eyewitness, p147). Perhaps this is confusion with his introduction of the codename "Tank".
Btw, there does not seem to be any primary evidence that this vehicle was ever called the No. 1 Lincoln Machine
Also removed hanging modifier. Hengistmate (talk) 14:09, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits 2 Feb 2014. 

message: There's a problem in the infobox. The height of the vehicle is given as "2.51 m (8 ft 3 in), 9 ft with dummy turret." Arithmetic states that the height of the turret must therefore be 9 inches. It is obvious from photographs that that can not have been the case. The photograph of the men working on the turret suggests that it was in excess of 2 feet. Does anyone have figures that might be more plausible? Hengistmate (talk) 11:28, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a source that gives the original design height as 10 ft 2 in. But that's before the suspension changes which might have altered the height. GraemeLeggett (talk) 13:32, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Height Discrepancy. 

message: I'm a little reluctant to say that the dummy turret "mounted" a machine gun.  We know from the photograph that it had provision for a weapon, and that Stern says, "The armament consisted of one 2-pounder automatic gun . . . . one .303 Maxim, and several Lewis or Hotchkiss automatics, to be fired through the port-holes," but he does seem to be speaking theoretically. There is no clear statement that a machine gun was fitted. However, in the three known photos of the turreted machine outdoors, the tarpaulin covering it does seem to be supported by something forward of the turret. I have grave doubts that they would have gone to the trouble of incorporating a real gun. Maybe a dummy or something to represent a gun of some kind was attached? I think the body copy should reflect that, as well as Stern's mention of other machine guns. Hengistmate (talk) 10:08, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: AIUI (from conversations at Lincoln), there was a trial with the 2 pounder. There was a concern that the turret ring mounting would be inadequate to handle the recoil, as had already been a problem for some armoured car mounts that had been satisfactory with an MG but jammed with anything bigger. Several 'fortress' mounts that were in use at the time hadn't been designed to tilt as well as to support recoil. If the heavy turret was off-vertical, this could tilt its weight on the ring and then jam it when fired. One of the turret bearing designs considered was able to resist this, having been designed for naval use. It was then realised that the "spider" it used to space the bearings apart now blocked access into the turret from beneath – which just hadn't been a problem for a deck-mounted naval gun. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:45, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would refer you to the case of Arkell vs. Pressdram. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:06, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Mr Dingley is recounting a narrative which he is aware of relating to the subject. He is speculating a bit, but then you were too in your interpretation of there being something being under the tarpaulin in the photos, or in assuming that the builders would not gone to the effort of fitting a weapon. He is not indulging in "Whoo, Little Willie is da coolest" which is what the restriction on discussing the subject on the talk pages is chiefly aimed at. Perhaps it would serve the article better if we could ask Andy if knows where the other part in his conversation got their information from. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:56, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have no idea where the other party (whose name I don't recall) got their ideas from, but as we were standing in a group with David Fletcher, I wouldn't rule them out of hand. If I had sources, I would have added this to the article. As I don't, I'm merely suggesting avenues for further research. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:10, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turret, guns, etc. 

message: Stern talks of the gun being on rails, not the turret.(Letter to Tritton, 3rd Sep, 1915, Logbook of a Pioneer, p 31.)
The rest is a bit of a jumble. Main reason for abandonment of the turret was LW was overtaken in priority by Wilson's new design ("Mother"), so work on the turret was stopped and the aperture plated over. Hengistmate (talk) 16:08, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits 4 July, 2014. 

message: Little Willie was not Little Willie until unofficially named so by a person or persons unknown upon its arrival at Hatfield Park in January, 1916 (Swinton, p168, citing The Tank Corps Journal). Therefore, there cannot be a "later form" of Little Willie, because the machine was in its final form when given that name. The rhomboid was, acc to Swinton, named "Big Willie" at the same time, but that does not seem to have stuck for very long.
What Little Willie was called up to that point is open to debate. Many sources state that it was called "The Number 1 Lincoln Machine," but there seems to be no primary evidence for that. Stern calls the first prototype the "Bullock Machine," and the second the "Tritton Machine." Tritton, who should know a thing or two about it, says, "Since it was obviously inadvisable to herald 'Little Willie's' reason for existence to the world he was known as the 'Instructional Demonstration Unit' (Popular Science Monthly, July 1918). None of the principal characters in this story seems to use the term. Was there a "Number 2 Lincoln Machine"? Why call something the Number 1 unless there is or you expect there to be a Number 2? If so, what was it, and why are there no published references to it?
Swinton also states (p167-8) that the two prototypes were both called "Centipede" (the pre-War trademark name of all Fosters' chaintracks) when demonstrated together at Hatfield Park on January 29th, 1916.
There is more than enough evidence here to support the assertion that the term "Number 1 Lincoln Machine" is debatable; not that there is no primary evidence to support it, but that there is enough secondary evidence to contest it.
I hope that if I continue to work very hard I shall one day come to understand the significance of Little Willie. In the meantime I shall edit the article judiciously in order to reflect the available evidence.
Hengistmate (talk) 11:14, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming.