Talk:Accelerated Christian Education/Archive 1

message: This article seems to me to be promoting and prepping the subject, instead of simply explaining what it is. Zoso 01:40, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Promotion?

message: Speaking as someone who went through this program from 7th - 12th grade: ACE is good in some ways, and terrible in others. Much of the information in the paces (at least when I was in school) is very 'dated'. Half of one entire pace was dedicated to bashing it into the students skull that dating is BAD. The 'recommendations' they gave basically said to NEVER be alone with a member of the opposite sex, not even on a double date. Dating should only be allowed with at least one parent present at all times.
Although 'world history' is taught, you really learn very little about what really went on. You are more likely to learn about the life and death of Martin Luther, than to ever read anything about the French Revolution.
Since student interaction is restricted to lunch and break times, students tend to graduate lacking small but important social graces, having the inability to cope with groups of their own peers who do not already share their point of view, and just basically unprepared for the 'outside world'. 
The principal at the school I went to, knew nothing about what GEDs were. He claimed that a GED was worthless and that you could not go to college with only a GED. When I did get to college I was completely unprepared. Since student/teacher interaction is even more limited than social interaction (with the teacher doing very little teaching) I was completely a fish out of water. I had never been schooled in proper study methods, had never written a paper more than two pages long, and had no idea how to do any sort of research at all. My knowledge of literature was a joke, it being previously limited to the KJV Bible, and other religious books such as Pilgrim's Progress, and biographies of famous Christians.
In all, I would NOT recommend this program to anyone that wants their child to succede in the real world.
--Gentlebutterfly 19:45, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Personal experience

message: I must say that I'm quiet disappointed by how ACE sees a boy-girl relationship, which views girl only as a sexual object for any teen male and therefore restricts for a girl staying alone with a boy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even in Islam such harsh measures of gender relationships are not executed. Also keep in mind the propaganda in one of the PACE's which states - "A Christian should not date/marry a non-Christian.". 
Really disturbing isn't it?
--GeorgeTopouria 18:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a discussion board. Please reserve this page for discussions of the article, rather than the subject of the article. Blarneytherinosaur talk 03:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Horrible understanding of gender relationships: 

message: 1.  At the school level.  There are various degrees of certification that School of Tomorrow can bestow upon a particular school to indicate levels of excellence.  However, they are not required, and not all schools are quality run institutions.  Make sure you spend time checking out the school, its staff, and its reputation.  Especially recommended is checking with the local police precinct to make sure that none of the faculty is a registered sex offender.--[[User:24.164.175.46] 05:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potential downfalls: 

message: I think that when discussing ACE we need to remember that there are two different groups of people who use ACE.  Many of the opinions, pros and cons of the curriculum are actually related to the setting and not the curriculum.  If we are talking about ACE in reference to alternate education (homeschooling) then we need to stick to that side when writing Lrldcs 18:05, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone can change a redirect page. When you click on a School of Tomorrow link and it redirects you to Accelerated Christian Education it will say at the top of the article "(Redirected from School of Tomorrow)" click on the blue link in this line and it will take you to the redirect page. Blarneytherinosaur 03:56, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ACE is different from School of Tomorrow 

message: "Over a million alumni demonstrate that Individualized learning produces academic excellence."
No, it doesn't.  It demonstrates that individualized learning has a large following.  It no more demonstrates that it produces academic excellence than the fact that millions of people in the world live in socialist countries demonstrates that socialism is an excellent political model.
"The child is given a diagnostic test to determine current academic ability and clearly identifies any learning gaps within all subjects. For example, your child’s English grammar may be above his/her grade level. However their punctuation skills may be below grade level. Your child is then placed in curriculum at his/her academic performance grade level in each subject and the learning gaps are then addressed."
Implies that the school treats English grammar and punctuation skills seperately - that students are given one pace level for English grammar and another for punctuation skills.  That's not what happens.
* We cannot, however, forget that this is a true account. One cannot say 'no' to a true account. PACES are not necessarilly for everyone. Some students find they simply cannot learn off by themselves or by reading. Other students have learned how to forget what they learn (beats me how they do that... I found it impossible), and if a student manages to forget the PACES, they are very doomed. My sister and I are showing that difference in ABeka. I was desperately holding on to ACE and fighting for my life against ABeka. In the start, my sister found that trying to relearn and start afresh in a schooling system that builds off from all the past years became destructive for her. Colonel Marksman 03:21, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alumni prove academic excellence?

message: I'm surprised that no one is yet to mention the comics. No doubt, my school fellows loved to make fun of the comics and about angelic Ace and Christi, fatty Pudge, and evil Susie and Ronny. These may be fun and great for kids, but the older teenagers do not see maturity in the PACES till the 11th and 12th grade where storyline changes and the student's unpredictable future evolves into serious concern. I don't have the gut as of now to post anything and I have no clue what I would say. Any suggestions?
Colonel Marksman 03:21, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ace and Christi Comics

message: 1. If someone transferred from an ACE school to traditional school, will he be placed in a grade according to his age or is he tested for placement?
2. How does one who graduates from ACE school get into a college or university? 
3. Is ACE recognized by public and university education establishments?
::Education is state-run.  So, the answers to your questions are probably going to depend to some extent on your state's laws.  You should ask your local Board of Education these questions.  Personally, I had no trouble getting into a university after I graduated from an ACE curriculum school.  My ACT and SAT scores were high and I was even given a scholarship.
However, ACE excels at teaching students to the test.  You aren't taught to use what you are taught in a free-form environment.  As a result, I was unprepared for higher learning, lost my scholarship within two terms of being at the university, and had to take remedial classes to catch up.
*For some reason, my district's public school didn't recognize my ACE school's accreditation, but universities and colleges in the area did. In my senior year of high school, I couldn't enroll back into the A.C.E. school due to lack of funds. When I tried to enroll at a public high school, I was told that I would have to repeat a grade in every subject except English (My ACE Supervisor had a Masters, meaning that the ACE's English accreditation was recognized, but not any others). So, the only option in my mind was to enroll in ACE home school program, which completely rendered all my life's accomplishments up to that point meaningless.
*I then took the ACT, completely unprepared, and got an average score. And what does a 4.0 mean when it comes from an A.C.E. school? Nothing. Despite never having earned an academic scholarship (I have earned some art scholarships), I will be graduating with honors in a few months with two BFA's. My sister, who had never shown any of the aptitude that I have, got a full ride to a nice liberal arts school because she was involved in many extracuricular activities at a public high school(that A.C.E schools lack). Despite knowing that I was artistically gifted early in life, I had no opportunity to grow until my very first art class in the university. Quite frankly, I think a parent can do much, much better than the so-called "School of Tomorrow". Yodamite 05:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  some queries 

message: I understand the need of 198.97.67.59, due to his 'bad' experience, to demean ACE curriculum. However, Wikipedia is not the medium for such attacks, as all articles must conform to the Neutral Point of View. (NPOV) If this user wishes to make changes like this repeatedly, then he (or she) should become a user, so that their decision is on their username not just a random IP address. I am willing to discuss this in an orderly fashion, but this section of the article is obviously not in compliance with the NPOV, and therefore also in violation of The Five Pillars of Wikipedia. If we can mediate this dispute with the creation of both viewpoints, I would be amiable to that, but the arguments must not be general character assasinations against the "Christian Right" schools, but against ACE in particular. Arguments against homeschooling or Christian Curriculum should be placed on their appropriate pages, not on an informative page on this particular curriculum. Please leave any comments on this page here, and if you wish to write on my talk page, do not write anything I cannot post here. Rrpbgeek 14:30, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep it all (I've always been against removing sourced, relevant material in Wikipedia), but balance it by adding content from peer-reviewed articles from academic journals which have the same rigor as Phi Delta Kappa and takes the opposite position.  Before anyone comments, I recommend that they read [Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial]-Psychohistorian 12:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality

message: :"ACE in fact is a very challenging curriculum that uses many methods of instruction."  My own experience was that ACE focused on low-level cognitive skills.  I routinely finished a PACE in a day's time only to pass the PACE test with a 100% score.  I had many many weeks in which my star chart had stars stacked on top of one another for the week.  The PACE work was trivial and unchallenging and, as I learned in college, woefully insufficient.
:"Students do not grade their own written essays."  Yes, they do, but not always.  What's worse, when they didn't, those essays were graded by people who lacked degrees in English education.  But an example of the lack of reading comprehension skills in ACE is the fact that, if you read the article, you'll find that that last part (about students grading their own essays) isn't part of the article.  Its a seperate piece.
**Then source it or remove it. Rrpbgeek
**Also, are the commentaries on specific books not read for the literature classes from the article itself, and if so, what is the source for that information? If it is not, and is a post-article addition, why is it included? Rrpbgeek
***The commentary on specific books not read for literature class is from the article itself.  There is a substantial reference section at the end of the article and the article is linked to from this article.  I'm not sure it is really necessary to cut and paste that article's references section and move it to this article.  You wouldn't do that with articles you referenced in a document for something else.
"The source it or remove it."  I think that sounds fair.  I'll remove it for now and think more about whether to put it back in.198.97.67.57 15:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Math was a little more difficult as I recall (this was about twenty years ago).  It usually took me two or three days to complete one of those PACES (other than the Geometry and Set Theory PACES which I would finish in a day - they were the only subjects that didn't completely bore me).  I do remember having completed Algebra 1 and 2, Geometry, Discrete Mathematics (which I took as an advanced elective because they had nothing else to offer me), and one other sequence (Trig maybe?) by the time I was through my sophomore year of High School.  I probably could have completed more in that time, but I was a lazy kid and had trouble staying on it because of the boredom.71.74.217.83 21:04, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism

message: I am curious as to whether or not this ACE program offers opportunities in higher level math.  Public schools offer Calculus, and sometimes AP Calculus courses to students with the ability.  Would students with the same ability in the ACE program have the same opportunities? From the research I have done on the curriculum myself, no.  It seems that curriculum choices are very few, even in high school.  Education is supposed to broaden the mind, not close it.
:Wikipedia is not a disussion board Blarneytherinosaur talk 02:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The high level maths courses may not be mentioned specifically in the article, but they could be included in the 'Academic content' section of the rewrite. We need to keep it balanced though, with a similar amount of content about other parts of the academic curriculum, i.e. if we write a paragraph on high level maths, we should try to mention the lower levels of maths, and the higher levels of other subjects. Blarneytherinosaur talk 09:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: High level math

message: I have started a rewrite of this article. You can edit it at Accelerated Christian Education/draft. Please leave any comments about the draft here. Blarneytherinosaur talk 02:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite

message: Hi.  Per the request at Wikipedia:Requested moves, I've moved the Accelerated Christian Education/draft subpage to the main title, and I merged the histories, as you can see here.  A couple of edits were lost in the merge, but the represented no original content - there were two grammar corrections, a vandalism edit, and a reversion of that vandalism, that are all now invisible.
There remains a talk page here that I didn't merge into this one.  Someone can copy content from there here, if they want; it's all signed anyway, and we're not worried about the GFDL history of talk pages, in general.  Cheers. -GTBacchus(talk) 07:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: The following taxt is transferred from the Talk:Accelerated Christian Education/draft after that draft was moved to the article space 4 November 2006. Blarneytherinosaur talk 01:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is space to mention the range of ways schools use ACE in the "Private schools" subsection of the "Usage" section. However, we should try to keep it brief. Accelerated Christian Education is a curriculum. How it is administered in a particular group of schools should be included, in this case, in an article about School of Tomorrow, which could have a "see also" form the "Private schools" subsection. Blarneytherinosaur talk 09:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: From the draft talk page 6 November 2006

message: I will leave the first comment: There's nothing about the high school and college courses available in PACEs. I would write in the section, but I don't know what to put down. Colonel Marksman 03:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Higher Learning

message: It seems to me that some of the reviews are unfair. The way ACE curriculum-based schools are portrayed zeroes in way too much on the curriculum, believing that supervisors and schools "go by the book". If public schools were reviewed only in the classroom setting, the same reviews would turn up. I'm not defending it totally, but I'm merrily pointing out the article and the statements focus on the PACEs and not on ACE as a whole.
Perhaps, for ACE, it needs a broader perspective. Include information such as the facts that schools are run on their own schedules, with regular breaks and physical education according to the school's organization. The PACE's do not dominate the schooling system; it is the curriculum, but not the entire whole. I propose that we include a seperate section detailing this. Colonel Marksman 03:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is space to mention the range of ways schools use ACE in the "Private schools" subsection of the "Usage" section. However, we should try to keep it brief. Accelerated Christian Education is a curriculum. How it is administered in a particular group of schools should be included, in this case, in an article about School of Tomorrow, which could have a "see also" form the "Private schools" subsection. Blarneytherinosaur talk 09:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Exclusiveness Assumptions

message: Although the criticism section hasn't been cut yet, I propose that this draft be moved to the article space. I will do so tomorrow, unless there is a good reason not to. Blarneytherinosaur talk 08:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Move to article space

message: As a student of Dade Christian and having read the student handbook, I can guarantee you that even if that policy existed in the past, it does not anymore. I actually know a student that I would describe as a hippie wearing it, and I am unaware of her ever getting in trouble.--Jorfer 23:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dade Christian School

message: The curriculum fostered an exclusive "cult-like" view of the world.   Learning occurred via rote memorization of facts that were biased.    Balanced discussions were discouraged.  This is no surprise as the foundation of the curriculum is fundamentalist Christianity.   I am a Christian and believe in moral behavior and adherence to Scripture.  However, their literal interpretation of the Scripture with regard to every issue and refusal to remove what I referred to as "Scrptural blinders" led to dangerous brainwashing of children in their critical formative years.
Discipline was administered via a "demerit" system.   If you accumulated 3 demerits, you were required to stay after school and stand staring at a wall for 20 minutes.  4 demerits earned you 30 minutes detention.   5 or more demerits earned you one solid hour of staring at a wall after school while they monitored this via a clock.
Demerits were issued for minor infractions such as accidentally "leaving your flag up" if you had a question.   (For those unfamiliar with the system, students sat in cubicles and were not allowed to speak.  If you had a question, you had to raise a flag on a wooden block (placing it on top of the cubicle).    Supervisors, we didn't have teachers trained in childhood development, would answer your questions.   They would not remind you to put your flag down.   I was 8 years old and left my flag up three times and was forced to stand for 20 minutes staring at the wall.
Women (and girls) were not allowed to pray at the chapel service.   Women in teaching positions were expected to wear head coverings based on a literal ancient depiction of proper dress for females within the church (subservient to men).  It was the Christian equivalent of the Taliban.
No alternative theories were ever discussed.  When I attended secular college, I needed to unlearn all of the trash that I had been fed for 10 years of my life.  While I held fast to my faith, I learned that in order to defend one's faith, one had to understand all angles presented.   The curriculum did little to foster that approach.
When I took classics in college, I had no clue about Greek mythology as the curriculum conveniently eliminated it.   The school provided no facilities such as chemistry labs, so chemistry was learned via rote memorization.    Students were warned not to engage in activities with "unsaved" friends ("unsaved" meaning anyone who did not adhere to fundamentalist principles).  
And then there was athletics.  This consisted of gym class (running laps around the church parking lot).   I had pneumonia three times in my life and was forced to run laps for gym class in 35 degree weather.   When I told the Supervisor (later Pastor) that I couldn't do it, I was ridiculed.   
The school made no provisions for students with special needs.  I never did well in athletics due to minor neurological impairment which impacted my balance and other fine motor skills such as catching a ball.   During intermural competition (flag football and basketball) I received constant ridicule.  I was forced to be on the team because they didn't have enough students to qualify as a team.   Winning meant everything to the Supervisor (later Pastor) who would make snide remarks about my athletic performance.
It took me 4 years of college, three years of graduate school, and approximately 5 years in the workforce to learn basic essentials such as working cooperatively in groups, defending viewpoints, and speaking with others / developing friendships.   I just want to warn anyone considering ACE to carefully examine the curriculum, and more importantly, examine the church sponsoring the school.
I earned a B.S. (Summa Cum Laude), an MBA, and post-MBA through MY OWN Determination and failure to accept Maranatha's shallow (and narrow) world-view.
155.201.35.50Mark Z.
Recommended Reading:  Churches that Abuse by Ronald Enroth.
In my school, we were given yellow slips for detention to take home, to be signed by our parents, and brought back the next day. Detention time was to be spent on the day following the time of infraction, before and after school in our offices (only if we had 10 minutes or less--20 was divided between morning and afternoon detention periods. Any period over 20 had to be spent in the afternoon in its entirety.) Just the same as what you experienced in your school, we weren't allowed to do anything during detention. Doesn't the Bible say something about idle hands?
One thing that my school added was a mandatory swat for 5 demerits. At the time of registration, parents sign a contract that allows the school to perform limited corporal punishment. I remember, in kindergarten, getting a swat for a number of small violations such as "leaving your chair out" and "talking out of turn", and then getting a spanking at home by my imbecile father for getting 5 demerits.
Regarding inattentive monitors, I had similar experiences. Mine were near sadistic when it came to being unhelpful and uncaring. I truly believe it was some sort of mind-game with them to purposefully catch students in the act of violating silly rules. It was not unusual to find a yellow slip on my desk, and I wouldn't have a clue as to what I did until I read it. Making things unbearable, the school's entire staff (besides the principal and supervisors) was made up of volunteers who were "paid" in curriculum discounts. Because the school was so desperate for help, abusive P.E. teachers and dangerous bus drivers were not fired. --Yodamite 17:36, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attended ACE (Maranatha Christian Academy - Hazlet, NJ) from 3rd grade through high-school