Talk:Samhain

message: Wow, that didn't take long.  I posted a question about a pov revert to the intro of the Samhain article and within 30 minutes it was deleted.  This article used to lead with the npov statement that Samhain was the word as Gaeilge for the month of November and gave it's etymology.  It now leads with unsourced POV neo-pagan claptrap about their festival.  I even mentioned in my comment that of course it was appropriate to discuss the modern neo-pagan festival of Samhain but that it should first be noted that it has a more generic meaning.  That would be the encyclopedic thing to do.  I suppose whomever deleted my post didn't like the fact that I pointed out that neo-pagans have essentially stolen Samhain from celtic culture and have made it in to something it never was.  Ye love to point out how christians did that to "your" festivals but the goddess forbid that anyone point out that ye are doing the same thing with celtic culture and tradition.  About 90% of the information in the current article is unsourced and reflects the typical overly romanticized concept of samhain popular among neo-pagans.  Alas, I'm sure this comment too will be deleted.  So much for the true meaning of wikipedia. --Dliodoir (talk) 14:16, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Your comment was removed because it was an insult-filled rant, not a constructive comment about improving the article. (And I say that as a Christian, not a pagan.) The article begins with a discussion of Samhain in ancient pagan Celtic culture, not with its significance in neo-Paganism. That doesn't come until two-thirds of the way down the page. If you care about "the true meaning of Wikipedia", read the article first without preconceived notions of what you expect to find, then read WP:CIVIL and WP:TALK, then come back here to discuss improvements to the article without name-calling. —Angr 14:40, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pagan Thought Police 

message: I am not an expert in the subject, but there does seem to be a rather large parallel here; a translation of an ancient spiritual ritual into modern times? Has this been discussed, or is it just ridiculous conjecture on my part?... (Pterantula (talk) 17:22, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's pure conjecture.  It would be right at home in the article lmao 24.128.36.188 (talk) 18:51, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Samhain translating to... Burning Man? 

message: I've added in a reference to the inclusion of Samhain in the Halloween series of movies, specifically with regards to Michael Myers himself. To be honest, I'm surprised there wasn't already any mention of the connection as the Halloween movies are more high profile than the other two examples. HDC7777 (talk) 19:05, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Take it to Irish mythology in popular culture. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 23:35, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pop Culture 

message: While a later part of the article discusses the tendency of many ancient groups to celebrate Samhain based on frost and harvest and land conditions, the first paragraph simply gives the date as October 31/November 1.  I was under the impression that the October 31/November 1 date was largely a modern adaptation, whereas any ancient people who used a set annual date for the festival would have timed their events by the sun (such as those who built Stonehenge.)  The midway point between the solstice and equinox is roughly a week later.  This year it is November 6/7.  Perhaps the initial paragraph could be changed to make the questionable or approximate date more clear.  68.146.28.195 (talk) 05:39, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historic Date 

message: Is the Loreena McKennitt's All Souls' Night about All Souls' Day or Samhain?
I've posted this in here and in Talk:All Souls' Day.Civic Cat (talk) 00:21, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Loreena McKennitt's song

message: If we can haveCategory:Christmas songs
List of Christmas hit singles
List of non-religious Christmas songsThen what about List of songs about Samhaim?Civic Cat (talk) 00:28, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: songs about Samhain

message: In looking over the entry on Samhain, this particular section seems somewhat out of place, as it is located between Celtic Reconstructionism and Wicca but does not seem to have anything to do with either of them or the previous section of Neopaganism.  It is also put in as a top level headline, rather than a subheader; the implication is that Wicca falls under this heading.  I would also like to note there are no references of any sort in regards to the information posted under The Spirit of Halloween.  My main concern is for the accuracy of this information, as well as its correct location within the article.  Thank you. 64.85.228.72 (talk) 08:50, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question regarding entry 6 The Spirit of Halloween 

message: This holiday was originally named after a spirit of the same name. I'll look it up, but it seems like an oversight without mentioning that (if true). And I was going to mention Glen Danzig's band -- but I see there's a page for that already. :)
--valerie (talk) 02:50, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  If I recall correctly... 

message: So we both agree that the Wikipedia articles should be well-sourced. It's good, as this is crucial for Wikipedia to be received as a reliable resource base and not another hobby only. What's very important for me, though, is better sourcing about Samhain and other holidays based on the folklorist/etnographic approach. One should not underestimate this position only because Frazer and some other researchers have overstated their claims about some relations. 
Most of what we know today about Slavic, Baltic and Finnish mythology comes from the folklore, including the creation myths, roles od the Deities and Spirits, etc. A lot was recovered about Slavic pagan customs thanks to the numerous analyses of the living folklore, too. I know that the case of Celts is much more complicated, as they were christianised few centuries before Slavs, not to say about the Balts who (in Lithuania) were baptised in XV century, and a lot survived as a live tradition; similiar case is with Finns and Sami people. 
Anyway, I have serious doubts, that the customs like passing cattle between bonfires, dressing up as ghosts, goblins and demons could have originated as a Christian custom. What Christian message does it contain? How is it related to the messianic revelation about Christ as the only Saviour of the World? Jews and early Christians despised such things. By contrast, Pagans have venerated and worshipped fire and considered it sacred, protective and healing since the oldest times in most or all cultures, as found by the numerous archeological discoveries, surviving traditions, myths, legends, etc. 
:That's a good point, and your impression is, I suspect, widely shared. But I have my doubts that passing cattle between bonfires, dressing up as ghosts, etc. are really pagan in origin. Remember that the pagans were really creeped out by widespread Christian practices like veneration of relics, boneyards, sleeping in coffins, and other momento mori practices that were generally more popular among Christians than pagans. A major part of pagan ceremonial had to do with ritual purification after pollution by contact with death. Christians did not share these taboos. In ancient times, Christians were in some respects the subcultural goths of the ancient world. Rwflammang (talk) 03:08, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Christianization

message: The paragraph entitled Coligny calendar describes Samonios as October/November lunation and Giamonios as the April/May lunation. Yet comparison with the Irish calender shows this should be fliped. Gamain according Cormac's 10th century glossary is in the month of Gaim (winter/November) and there is the 6th/7th century poem CÉTEMAIN (per James Careney) has Cet Samhain as Maytime.
The Coligny calendar 'three nights of Samonios' would then be in Maytime. Compare this to Hutton's “The Irish pattern of festivals is so often taken as typical of ‘the Celts’, from Ireland to the Alps, that it must be pointed out that the available evidence on the matter is inconclusive. The early Welsh literature ascribes no importance to 1 November, 1 February or 1 August, and all the emotional investment made by the Irish writers in Samhain is attached instead to May Day (Calan Mai) and the night before it." In Ireland Samhain is linked to Feast of Tara, which in it's earliest reference, i.e. Muirthu's 7th century Life of St Patrick, occurs at Easter.
It should also be noted that Cet Samain (Beltaine) according to the 8th Century Irish Laws (Senchas Mor) is start of the Irish marriage year (per Binchy and Westropp).
Muireagain (talk) 00:39, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coligny calendar paragraph is incorrect 

message: I've been working on this article over the past six days. I rewrote (or reworded), expanded and referenced much of it and also added pictures. Here is the before and after. With a little more work I think we could raise this to GA status. There's some content that could do with a reference and some that could be expanded upon. I think we should delve more into the links between Samhain and guising and how Samhain customs influenced those of All Saints' Day. ~Asarlaí 17:48, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expansion (October 2012) 

message: Near the end of the article is the statement "Samhain influenced All Hallows' Eve and vice-versa, and the two eventually morphed into the secular holiday known as Halloween."
That seems too general. Samhain influenced the way the Celts celebrated All Hallows' Eve. American-style Halloween derived from the celebration brought over by Scottish and Irish immigrants in the 19th century. The secularized tradition of American Halloween that is exported back into the world is separate from and in addition to the religious traditions that are still practiced, like church services.
As stated, it gives the impression that Samhain influenced the way that Germans, Romans, Syrians, and everyone else celebrated All Hallows' Eve, and that the morphed holiday of Halloween replaced the one with church services.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.97.235.122 (talk) 01:06, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  All Hallows' Eve and Samhain 

message: Thanks to the Old-Irish-l group who translated two of the three tales discussing Samain: Don tSamain Beos, Fagail na samna and Scél na Samhna. These texts describe a 'battle game’ (i.e. players having equal pieces) played yearly by the Maiden and the Cailleach. 
The game in the tales is called Fidchell, however the reference to 18 pieces suggest the Roman game ludus latrunculorum, which Eoin Mac White identified in “Early Irish Board Games”, Éigse 5 (1948), p.25–35, as possible identification of what the Irish called Fidchell. 
In the Isle of Mann (and similarly in Wales) an actual physical/play battle between a troop of men, each lead by a captain is held yearly. One fights for the Maiden (the daughter of a rich farmer) and the other for the Cailleach (a man dress as woman). This yearly activity occurs across the length of the Isle of Mann on May 1st. The battle was a metaphor for summer’s defeat of winter and similar battles where held across Europe on May 1st. 
In the tales treat the battle game of Fidchell as a metaphor for the battle at Armageddon (i.e., the forces of light defeating forces of darkness).  In the biblical story of battle at Armageddon, it is St Michael who leads force of light as kills the Antichrist. 
When the Antichrist is depicted as a dragon (Irish seems to have their own version of tale), it parallels the image is found atop of some of the Celtic Jupiter columns within continental Europe. The others have the solar figure mounted and armed with a lightning bolt, as if he was the image of St George. The images of defeating a serpent man parallels markedly with the Slavic confliction between chief god Perun and serpent water god Veles. The later was either represented as Satan or as a saint, hence we have another possible depiction the defeat of the Antichrist). 
In Ireland St Michael was associated with Irish god Lugh. There are alternative Irish descriptions of the Antichrist in Irish tales; that of a powerful man with an eye in the middle of his forehead, suggesting a parallel with Balor. The mythical tale the Second battle of Magh Tured has Lugh killing Balor (most likely with a lightning bolt) and occurring at the same day as the Maiden battles the Cailleach, i.e. Samhain.
The defeat of the Cailleach mirrors the Scottish tradition of her as a figure of the Winter; who at the start of summer is replace (defeat or transformed) by the Maiden. Some have suggested that the maiden’s consort was the god Angus Og/Lugh and replaced in local tales by St Patrick.
The tales go on to say “manner was prohibited from then on, by the decision of Pope Boniface and Emperor Phocas, and the Pantheon was consecrated to the saints of the world, …”. 
The Irish author would be fully aware that this reference to Pope Boniface and Emperor Phocas, and the Pantheon is the story behind the creation of “All Martyrs Day” held on May 13th. 
(Note: I find it unlikely that Irish celebration where original held on the 1st of the month, for numerous tales describe 15 days before and 15 days after the day in the manner of Coligny calendar.) 
(Note above reference to tale "Battle of Maige Rath" which tells that Feast of Tara was held circa 628 in the middle of May. The Feast of Tara was commonly associated with Samhain.)
All Martyrs, May 13th, in the 8th century was transferred by the Church to All Saints Day, November 1st. Only after this date do we have in the Irish records Samhain identified with November first (already the start of winter for Christians) and with All Saints day (which it remains associated with). This first occurrence of this dating is in the early 9th century Martyrology of Oengus.
Additionally the fuller tales tells “Because Samain was formerly a festival of the gods of the world until this time, it will be a festival of the saints and holy virgins of the world from now on, and like it is in the name of the queen of the emperor that you have honored them heretofore, it will be done from now on in honor of the true queen who is queen to the true emperor, that is the Virgin Mary who is queen to Jesus Christ.” 
I note that it was report that some Irish celebrated on this day (Samhain) the goddess figure Mongfind, i.e. Féile Moingfhinne, "the Festival of Mongfind".
The dates of when we know when the Irish celebrated are RELATIVE to the age of the source material that we have learn of the celebration from. So bearing this in mind, Scotland has the celebration of Cailleach’s day in March 25th, the same day as the Annunciation to the Blessed Virgin Mary. And the same day, assuming St Patrick followed Gallic Church doctrine, that St Patrick would have been his Easter and his conflicted with the earliest reference to a Feast of Tara. 
Also in Ireland March 18th in 18th/19th century Ireland was the day of St Sheila (associated with snow). She was the wife of St Patrick. In full tale the Cailleach reaches between her thighs to draw out her playing piece. These eight pieces represent eight sins, versus the maiden who draws eight virtues from her mouth. Maybe the Cailleach is drawing winter out from between her thighs? This image may be bawdy humor or it could be related the images of the Sheela-na-gig.  
19th Century custom from the Isle of Mann:
“… ‘In almost all the great parishes they choose from among the daughters of the most wealthy farmers a young maid for the Queen of May. She is dressed in the gayest and best manner they can, and is attended by about twenty others, who are called maids of honour, she has also a young man, who is her captain, and has under his command a great number of inferior officers. In opposition to her is the Queen of Winter, who is a man dressed in women's clothes, with woollen hoods, fur tippets, and loaded with the warmest and heaviest habits one upon another ; in the same manner are those who represent her attendants dressed ; nor is she without a captain and troop for her defence. Both being equipped as proper emblems of the beauty of the spring and the deformity of the winter, they set forth from their respective quarters ; the one preceded by violins and flutes, the other with the rough music of tongs and cleavers. Both companies march till they meet on a common, and then their trains engage in a mock-battle. If the Queen of Winter's forces get the better, so far as to take the Queen of May prisoner, she is ransomed for as much as pays the expense of the day. After this ceremony, Winter and her company retire and divert themselves in a barn, and the others remain on the green, where, having danced a considerable time, they conclude the evening with a feast, the queen at one table with her maids, the captain with his troop at another. There are seldom less than fifty or sixty persons at each board.’ …"
From “The folk-lore of the Isle of Man” by Arthur William Moore”
 
From Wales:
“An aged Welshman described the battle as conducted in South Wales in the following way: "When I was a boy, two companies of men and youths were formed. One had for its captain a man dressed in a long coat much trimmed with fur, and on his head a rough fur cap. He carried a stout stick of blackthorn and a kind of shield, on which were studded tufts of wool to represent snow. His companions wore caps and waistcoats of fur decorated with balls of white wool. These men were very bold, and in songs and verse proclaimed the virtues of Winter, who was their captain. The other company had for its leader a captain representing Summer. This man was dressed in a king of white smock decorated with garlands of flowers and gay ribbons. On his head he wore a broad-brimmed hat trimmed with flowers and ribbons. In his hand he carried a willow-wand wreathed with spring flowers and tied with ribbons. All these men marched in procession, with their captains on horseback heading them, to an appropriate place. This would be on some stretch of common or wasteland. There a mock encounter took place, the Winter company flinging straw and dry underwood at their opponents, who used as their weapons birch branches, willow-wands, and young ferns. A good deal of horse-play went on, but finally Summer gained the mastery over Winter. Then the victorious captain representing Summer selected a May King and the people nominated a May Queen, who were crowned and conducted into the village. The remainder of the day was given up to feasting, dancing, games of all kinds, and later still, drinking. Revelry continued through the night until the next morning.” From “Folk-lore and folk-stories of Wales” by Marie Trevelyan, 1909.
May 1st being the day of Beltaine also troubles me for the customs associate with Beltaine occur at Mid-Summers Day in 18th/19th century Ireland and Scotland:
"I find the following, much to our purpose, in the Gentleman's Magazine for February 1795, vol. Ixv. p. 124: "The Irish have ever been worshippers of Fire and of Baal, and are so to this day. This is owing to the Roman Catholics, who have artfully yielded to the superstitions of the natives, in order to gain and keep up an establishment, grafting Christianity upon Pagan rites. The chief festival in honour of the Sun and Fire is upon the 21st of June, when the sun arrives at the summer solstice, or rather begins its retrograde motion. I was so fortunate in the summer of 1782, as to have my curiosity gratified by a sight of this ceremony to a very great extent of country. At the house where I was entertained, it was told me that we should see at midnight the most singular sight in Ireland, which was the lighting of Fires in honour of the Sun. Accordingly, exactly at midnight, the Fires began to appear: and taking the advantage of going up to the leads of the house, which had a widely extended view, I saw on a radius of thirty miles, all around, the Fires burning on every eminence which the country afforded. I had a farther satisfaction in learning, from undoubted authority, that the people danced round the Fires, and at the close went through these fires, and made their sons and daughters, together with their cattle, pass through the Fire; and the whole was conducted with religious solemnity.' This is at the end of some Reflections by the late Rev. Donald M'Queen, of Kilinuir in the Isle of Sky, on ancient Customs preserved in that Island."
From “'Observations on Popular Antiquities", Volume 1, by Geeraert Brandtand Henry Ellis, 1813.
 
Scotland:
"the least considerable of them is that of midsummer. In the Highlands of Perthshire there are some vestiges of it. The cowherd goes three times round the fold, according to the course of the sun, with a burning torch in his hand. They imagined this rite had a tendency to purify their herds and flocks, and to prevent diseases. At their return the landlady makes an entertainment for the cowherd and his associates."
From “Scotland and Scotsmen in the eighteenth century”, Volume 2, by John Ramsay, Alexander Allardyce, 1888, p.436
The timing of Lughnasad (Lugh’s death) is also conflicted, as versions of LGE which put it at the end of October.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.1.234.164 (talk) 15:26, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Samhain as May 1st was celebrated up the nineteen century? 

message: Four Master entry M3656.2: "A b-foirchend na bliadhna-so at-bail-siomh, go teoraibh cethramhnaibh fer n-Ereann ime, i mordhail Maighe Slecht, isin m-Breifne ag adhradh do Crom Croach, airdiodhal adhartha Erenn eisidhe, oidche h-Samhna do h-sonradh innsin."
"At the end of this year he died, with the three fourths of the men of Ireland about him, at the meeting of Magh Slecht, in Breifne, at the worshipping of Crom Cruach, which was the chief idol of adoration in Ireland. This happened on the night of Samhain precisely."
However if Samain is at the end of the old year, then Samain is also the start of the new year?
'Fornocht' from the Rennes Dindshenchas, prophezied the coming year at Samain:
"Aliter Fornocht .i. Uince Ochurbel, & is de asberar Ochurbel fo bith aroile fer bo achurbeoil ic labraid dia sun, daig ni labrad Uinci acht tri lai & tri haidche ria samain & iar samoin cacha bliadne, & adfed dia muindtir lergnima na bliadne beus amail cach faith. Fer ar fichit a lín dogrés."
 
If the end of the end is the start of the year, then it is May 1st per a comparison of the annals:
M3500.1: “Tasgur .i. cobhlach mac Míleth do techt i n-Erind a b-foirchend na bliadhna-so dia gabhail ar Tuathaibh De Danann, & ro fersat cath Slébe Mis friú isin tres laithe iar na t-techt h-i t-tír:”
"The fleet of the sone of Milidh came to Ireland at the end of this year, to take it from the Tuatha De Dananns; and they fought the battle of Sliabh Mis with them on the third day after landing."
Chronicon Scotorum pre-Patracian entry: "Día Dárdaoin for Kl. Maoí gabais tasgur mac Milidh Erinn in Inber Sgéne, for .xuii. lunae & adbath ann ben Aimergín Glúingil .i. Sgene Dauilsir & focres a fert ann unde Inper Sgene & focres fert Erennain don leth ele.
Treas laithe iar ngabail a n-Erinn do macoib Milidh ra cuirsit cath Slebhe Mis fri demnaibh & fri Fomorchaibh & ro meabaidh ría macoib Milidh & ro gabsat cennus Erenn go haithgerr iarum & reliqua."
"On Thursday, the Kalends of May, on the l7th of the Moon, the fleet of the sons of Milidh occupied Erinn at Inbher Sgene, and the wife of Aimergin Gluingil, i.e. Sgene Davilsir, died there, and her grave was made there; hence it was called Inbher Sgene. Erennan's grave was placed on the other side.
The third day after the occupation of Erinn by the sons of Miledh, they fought the battle of Sliabh Mis against demons and Fomorians, and the sons of Milidh gained it, and they assumed the sovereignty of Erinn very soon afterwards; and so forth."
So the events of the "foirchend na bliadhna" are the events of 'Kl. Maoí'.
I believe it is acceptable to say that May 1st was the start of the agricultural year in Ireland. It was also the important day for marriages and property rights:
A version of 'Cain Lanamhna' says:
"co ceand mbliadna, .i. cur na belltanaib nida nesom;"
"to the end of a year, i.e. to the next May-days,"
End of the year is May 1st?
This passage (given fully below) and an additional description of  divorce payments have the marriage running from Beltaine to Beltaine:
“Nomad a indud, ocus a arbim, ocus a sail mad mardentaig; is miach di cacha mis ara bi co ceand mbliadna, .i. cus na belltanaib bi da nesom; ar mu biad i naimsir imscarta iscarad.”
"One-ninth of his (the man's) increase, and of his corn, and of his bacon is due to the woman if she be a great worker; she has a sack every month she is with him to the end of a year, i.e. to the next May-days, for this is mostly the time in which they make their separation."
The other law tract that gives a time frame is that for Property, which also use the frame Beltaine to Beltaine.
AL iii .142.19-20:
“.i. in foltach fuithrime ocus in carpat ar Imran ir é a naichmeside: tír ceithri secht cumhal ac in dara de, ocus ceithri ba fichit ac araile, ocus comaenta do niat  ó belltaine co belltaine."
“That is, the holder and the stock-owner are of this king; the one has land of the value of four times seven ‘cumbals,’ and the other has twenty-four cows, and they make an agreement to remain together from May to May.”
I found an alternative quoted by Dr Koch:
"NO DIA I NAETALLAIND FOR TIR .i. IN foltach fuithrime 7 in carpat ar imarm; is e a naichi-side: tir .iiii.ri .uii acin dara de 7 ceithri ba xx.it ar araile 7 comaentu doniat o belltaini co belltaini."
I know of, but unfortunately do not have a copy of Dr McCone paper whether he ascribes two Samain(s) at the being and end of summer period.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.1.234.164 (talk) 15:48, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Samain and May 1st both begining of the year? 

message: Dr. David Stifter, professor of Old Irish at National University of Ireland, Maynooth, offered his informed opinion on etymology of Samain in the public Old-Irish-l forum says:
"What I am saying (and believing) is that OIr. samuin, Gaul. samonios and related derivatives in the Brit. languages, such as W cyntefin, methefin, are derivatives of *samos, the Proto-Celtic word for "summer". Being a derivative, the original meaning of samuin or its ancestral forms was something like "pertaining to summer". "Pertaining to summer", however, can be quite diverse things. It could relate to something belonging to the middle of summer, but it could just as well refer to "(end of) summer", as is generally suggested for OIr. samuin. There is no guarantee that samuin always occurred at the 1st Nov. The only thing we know is that after the introduction of the Roman calendar to Ireland, samuin was associated with the 1st Nov and with All Saints' Day. Maybe the precursor of samuin occurred a few days or weeks earlier than this, and thereby closer to what we understand as summer.
However, *samoni(o)- (or whatever the precise reconstruction of that word would be) does not mean "summer", only "having something to do with summer".
It is obvious that some semantic shift must have affected the word at some stage of its history. The problem with semantic shifts is that they are totally arbitrary and cannot be described in any kind of rules. Fundamentally, anything goes."
In regard to the potential for Samain “could just as well refer to ‘(end of) summer’”, we must remember that Dr Carey in "Sequence and Causation in Echtra Nerai", Ériu, 39, 1988, p. 67-74, clearly argue that the end of summer in the Gaelic world is July.
“The most subtle and persuasive discussion so far has been that of Kim McCone. Arguing from the formulaic opposition sam/gaim ‘summer/winter’ in Irish, and from the broader findings of Indo-European comparative scholarship, he concludes that the ancient Irish year was divided into halves: summer, becoming with Beltaine (1 May), and winter, beginning with Samain (1 November). Cétamain (<*kintu-samon-), an alternative name for Beltaine, is evidently an older term than the latter, given its obvious kinship with the synonymous Middle Welsh Kyntefin. McCone suggests that in Ireland Samain came to designate not merely the beginning of summer (presumably the sense of Coligny’s SAMONI(-)) but also its end: ‘first Samain’ (=Cétamain) and ‘second Samain’ bracketed the season. As Beltaine became the usual name for the former, Samain came to be applied exclusively to the later.
A difficulty for this theory was first pointed out to me by John T. Koch: Cétamain and Kyntefin are members of a family of terms, all of which refer to a summer which is three months long, not six. From Kyntefin ‘1 May’ we can scarcely dissociate Welsh Mehefin, Breton Mezheven ‘June’ <*medio-samon- ‘middle of summer’, or Welsh Gorffennaf ‘July’, literally ‘end of summer’. Modern Irish M(e)itheamh ‘June’ must likewise go back to some form *medio-sam-; its Old Irish forerunner is glossed mi medhonach in tsámraid (sic) in ‘The cauldron of poesy’. Although Samain and Beltaine are frequently characterized as the poles of the Irish year, I am not aware that any reference to Samain as the end of summer is to be found outside the specific context of the sam-fhuin etymology: to rely on such evidence would surely be to argue in a circle.”
Dr Shifter opinon of the sam-fhuin etymology is "It is just the Early Medieval folk etymology found in Cormac's Glossary, and has no credentials to its etymological correctness whatsoever." Archive of Old-Irish-L 12/24/13. I view shared by Dr Carey in "Sequence and Causation in Echtra Nerai".
The semantic shift acknowledged by Dr Shifter and Dr Carey is a leap and not a subtle shift, November is not the end of the Gaelic summer. Also remember that Samain's binary opposite Gamain was in the 10th century (Sanas Cormaic) consider the name for the month of November, suggesting the original location of Samain was within the month of Cet Samain (May). Or a broader approach would be that Samain was originally in one of the three months named for it May, June and July.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.1.234.164 (talk) 13:24, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The semantic shift of Samhain 

message: This article in the International Business Times seems to describe it as a pagan festivity, attesting that pagans worldwide celebrate it in different ways. To be fair, this is far more descriptive than just saying it's Gaelic. The name is derived from Gaelic, sure, but this isn't wiktionary. Santa Claus comes from the Dutch Sinterklaas, but that doesn't mean giving presents on Christmas is a Dutch festivity. Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 21:40, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not attested with that name in other Celtic cultures, but similar celebrations are indeed found in the other modern Celtic cultures. Do some research on Calan Gaeaf in Wales, for instance. Cagwinn (talk) 02:18, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Pagan or Gaelic

message: If a user types in "sam hain", with the space between the two words, aren't they more likely to be looking for the cricketer than the festival?
I'd suggest we update the forwarding for "sam hain" to point to the cricketer, with a note at the top to this page, rather than the other way around.
Adxm (talk) 10:23, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sam Hain cricketer 

message: "and the two eventually morphed into the secular holiday known as Halloween." for whom?
As it is not a holiday everywhere in the English speaking world, and as it is not general knowledge for whom it is a holiday, I think it needs at least a footnote stating where it is a holiday. -- PBS (talk) 08:15, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Secular holiday 

message: I realise this has been hashed out a lot, however I propose that the word "Bealtaine" be used instead of "Beltane" as it redirects anyway to the Beltane page, however in the context of an article on Irish History & Mythology, the former is used currently in both English and Irish in Ireland. Beltane is exclusively used by Wiccans to refer to modern practices, which should not be the primary focus of the article as the history and traditional observations are more notable. Wasechun tashunka (talk) 20:35, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beltane vs. Bealtaine 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Why does Gaelic have to have 2 outdated spellings listed as opposed to just one accurate one? Both the -nn spelling and the -u- spelling are inaccurate, however common the may have been at some point. Neither Irish not Manx list spelling variants so I don't get why Gaelic gets singled out in the Infobox like this? Stick it in the etymology section if you have to but where it is just makes Gaelic look ridiculous. 
Dwelly and MacBain are more than 100 years old and the Scotsman is many things but not a reliable source for Gaelic. They can't even manage to set character encodings correctly on their pages. That's like citing Dineen for a modern Irish word. Akerbeltz (talk) 20:56, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Support standardising to single, modern spelling as we do with Irish. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 00:22, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

text: Fixed it.  take a look at the IPA (and changes in general) and see if it needs fixing. IPA is not really part of my skillset. Tapadh leibh, - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 00:38, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Cheers! Had a look, the IPA is fine. Akerbeltz (talk) 08:57, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The infobox has a field for alternative names and spellings. Samhuinn was the common Scottish Gaelic spelling for centuries, when the festival was widely celebrated in Scotland. I provided a source showing that Samhuinn is still used by some in Scotland – it's the spelling used by the organizers of the 'Samhuinn Fire Festival', the biggest public celebration of Samhain in Scotland. I also cited Am Faclair Beag, the online Scottish Gaelic dictionary, which gives Samhainn as the staandard modern spelling. The reason there's no alternative Irish spellings given is because there are no alternative Irish spellings. The infobox has a field for "other names", Samhainn and Samhuinn are other names for this festival, therefore they belong in the infobox. It can be noted that the latter is an alternative spelling. ~Asarlaí 20:27, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, was. We don't give all the pre-spelling-reform spellings for contemporary topics  in Irish equal weight, even though some festivals and tourist attractions might still use them for an Olde Time Feele for their events.  Dictionaries include variations because not all of them have been revised before being put online, and they are used as resources for translating older materials. But these are living languages. We don't list Old English names for holidays, either. The alternate names are in the etymology section, where they belong. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 21:04, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: And you're mis-interpreting the Faclair Beag. The Faclair Beag is two dictionaries, the century-old Dwelly in the right column and the "modern" one in the left. Samhuinn/Samhainn only appears in the right column (i.e. the Dwelly column). And you're really going out on a limb by claiming Samhuinn was the common spelling for centuries. If I put all three spellings into the DASG corpus, Samhainn gets me 37 matches in 30 texts, Samhuinn 65 in 39 and Samhain 50 in 31. At best that makes Samhuinn a competing spelling... Citing the Samhuinn Fire Festival is rather ridiculous, since when do non-Gaelic (or Irish as for that) speaking organisations have such a good track record at Gaelic that we use them to back up stuff? Akerbeltz (talk) 23:40, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gaelic spelling 

message: The harvest, etc. aspects of the holidays are almost surely related to temperate growing seasons.
But more to the point, the solstice (literally "sun-stoppage") is the northernmost/southernmost point of sunrise and can be determined by meticulous day-to-day observation of when the sun "stops and turns away" from the maximum location.
The solstice is the day of longest/shortest daylight but people didn't have clocks with minute hands in ancient times, so they used spatial location instead of measuring time.
Also, the solstice is NOT the day of earliest/latest sunrise. For London, as an example, the latest sunrise this year occurs on Dec 28, not the actual solstice. Slide the bar in this graph:
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/london
US Naval Observatory web site had a full page dedicated to explaining the difference, but it seems inaccessible today.
Here in the tropics, the most relevant experience is the Subsolar_point which is when the sun is directly overhead. In the TEMPERATE zones, the sun appears highest in the sky at the summer solstice. However, in the tropics, this event occurs twice, roughly at equal numbers of days before and after the solstice. The solstice itself is not very important. I haven't seen anthropological or archeological evidence that ancient cultures in the tropics made a big deal out of it.
(Erastosthenes knew that the subsolar point at the Tropic of Cancer occurs on the summer solstice and used that fact to estimate the circumference of the earth. Eratosthenes#Measurement_of_the_Earth's_circumference)
Similarly, I doubt the equinox was ever important in tropical cultures. Again, clocks weren't precise, so people in temperate cultures had to determine the vernal and autumnal dates by interpolation between the two solstices.
In sum, discussions of "flipping" the traditional holidays for the southern "hemisphere" should actually refer to flipping them from northern TEMPERATE zones to southern TEMPERATE zones. Martindo (talk) 00:50, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Northern/Southern Hemisphere remarks probably should refer to Northern/Southern temperate zones 

message: There is/was apparently a widespread myth among Christians that Samhain was the Celtic God of Death. Characters based on Samhain the God of Death appear in pop culture occasionally; for instance:
* Samhain in King's Quest VI is the "Lord of the Dead" (https://kingsquest.fandom.com/wiki/Samhain)
* Samhain in Supernatural is an evil demon connected to Halloween: https://supernatural.fandom.com/wiki/Samhain
Here is a collection of sources (not necessarily the best ones and not necessarily Wikipedia-worthy - I haven't evaluated them deeply) talking about the myth that Samhain was a death god:
* https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2007/10/25/402580/-
* https://www.worldreligionnews.com/religion-news/christianity/these-5-things-about-samhain-are-actually-myths
* https://www.postguam.com/forum/letter_to_the_editor/nothing-wrong-with-dressing-up-as-ghosts-and-goblins/article_3e6c5d6c-fc6c-11e9-91bf-cbe3a94c185f.html
Even if this idea is complete nonsense (as the sources all seem to assert), it seems widespread and significant enough to warrant mentioning? Some exploration of how this myth came about and the impact it had seems like it'd be helpful if possible. (Some sources seem to heavily imply that it was a deliberate attempt by conservative Christians to demonise paganism and frame Halloween as the worship of an evil death god, but I'm not sure how well-supported this is and anyone taking this on would want to take some care to ensure what they write is both true and backed up by good sources.)
ExplodingCabbage (talk) 08:47, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Worth adding a section? No, absolutely not. There was no such widespread belief, and none of those sources can be taken in any way seriously. "The honouring of the death of a god"? Lol, what?! "there is/was no Celtic God of the Dead"? Welsh pagans may disagree. While absolutely there is "anti-Halloween" sentiment from Christians, I've never seen any that included mention of Samhain as a god of any stripe. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:22, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Worth adding a section on the Christian myth of Samhain as God of the Dead? 

message: The article links from the words "autumn equinox" to an article entitled September Equinox. I guess we could also call it the non-Spring Equinox. Anything but autumnal, which is not acceptable in Wikipedia? The age of fable (talk) 17:54, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The article states that "it is held on 1 November... This is about halfway between the autumn equinox and winter solstice.", which for southern hemisphere readers is incorrect as their autumn equinox and winter solstice are in March and June respectively. Bazza (talk) 19:12, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the problem. The article is not correct. The definition of autumnal is "of, in, or CHARACTERISTIC to autumn." Thus you can have a phrase such as "chilly autumnal weather." This could refer to weather occurring in late spring. But these distinctions are lost on most content moderators, who grew up a post-book reading world. This article becomes invalid if you click on the linked word autumn, which takes you to "September Equinox." Autumn is the politically correct adjective replacement for autumnal, that doesn't hold up to the total logic of the situation, and thus creates a failure. The age of fable (talk) 14:29, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Autumnal Equinox 

message: The current photo opening the article is not covered under a Creative Commons license, as the photo’s source on Wikimedia links to two pages that attribute it to Getty Images. Here is the purchase link. Should we find a photo that is free for public use? (And is this the right space to ask?) HereAndThereAndEverywhere (talk) 20:34, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finding a New Photo 

message: You reverted  to use the spelling "Beltane" (as the anglicised spelling of  for the English-language Wikipedia), stating "we're writing about a Celtic festival; use the correct spelling". ,  and  confirm "Beltane" to be the spelling in English.
Its own article is confused, but is titled "Beltane". As "Bealtaine" appears not to be an English word (it's in neither of those two main-line dictionaries), then this article should either use  (with () on the first occurence); or  throughout. I prefer (as you can tell from the edit you reverted) the former; what is your preference?
Once we've come to a consensus, then I'm happy to plough through other related articles for consistency. Bazza (talk) 12:09, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Bealtaine is an Irish word, but it's absolutely also commonly used in the English language. It therefore makes sense to use the correct and original spelling throughout the article. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 13:43, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  English spelling of [[Beltane]]