Talk:Bad Newz Kennels

message: The content of this article was moved from the Michael Vick article on July 10, 2007. All contributors are reminded that we are working hard to keep this subject within WP policies. Special attention to WP:NPOV and WP:CITE is requested. Vaoverland 09:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Note

message: Is Wikipedia an America only reference ? Because in my country Dog Fighting is legal . The whole tone should have a NPOV regardless . Besides should this even be eligible for an article ?
::The point still remains that dog fighting is illegal in the US--"Bad Newz Kennels" participated in a felonious act.  I don't think having a negative tone with regard to crimes constitutes POV. Otherwise, you could probably better spend your time checking for POV on the dog fighting page, or possibly the stoning and honor killing pages.
Also, because this is a matter of high interest for US pop culture, I think that its important to be able to obtain information about it through Wikipedia.
:: Otherwise, you could probably better spend your time checking for POV on the dog fighting page, or possibly the stoning and honor killing pages.
Killing people isn't the same as animals.
::I'm not saying that they are the same thing. What I'm saying is that just because something is legal or ignored in one country doesn't make it ethically right. There's nothing wrong with having a negative tone toward something that is widely considered to be wrong.
I want to chime in here; those of us contributing to this article have worked diligently to be NPOV within the topic of an investigation of illegal activities in the U.S. The laws etc. are facts, not any editor's opinions. In a democracy, we have laws by the people and for the people. So, since you are in another country with different laws, and this article makes it very clear that it is a U.S. situation, it is no more right for you to try to interject a position from your country into how we report this sad story here than it would be for us to go into a report of your dog fighting industry and try to interject our opinions or laws which are different.              
We took the U.S. content almost entirely out of the dog fighting article and put it in it's own article: Dog fighting in the United States. Beyond that, this article is about a specific criminal investigation in the United States, so what do the laws (or customs) in some other county have to do with it anyway? There are ample facts that in the U.S., the practice of dog fighting is outlawed everywhere, and has been proved in the U.S. to be frequently tied to other crimes as it apparently was in this case. It is an increasingly unacceptable activity here, as evidenced by new and harsher laws, increased penalties, and calls for more. There are protests against it by members of the public. Meanwhile, it would seem that no one in the U.S. is advocating for it, anyway. If they were, WP could and should present that in the DF in US article. However, there seems no controversy here in the U.S. about the laws, except that more enforcement is needed and desired by the public, and is in fact, underway. 
Regarding differing customs and practices around the world, the DF article would seem to be the place for you to be sure an article is NPOV from an international perspective. The existing article would benefit from some explanation and rational about why it is lawful or a good thing in a place like your country, since it is the opposite in many places around the world, with those explanations fairly well articulated. I, for one, would be interested in reading and trying to understand that better. Our cultures must be very different Vaoverland 04:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tone 

message: I am starting a cleanup of the Michael Vick article.  I will be providing a two paragraph summary of the situation with a  link to this article.  In the meantime, I have stored an exact copy of the section from the Michael Vick article on my user subpage at User:Jmfangio/bad newz.  If you are going to include any of that information here, please remove it from that subpage for me. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  11:32, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well at least we have attributed the statement to "TV reported" rather than simply stating "illegal ammunition magazines". Could any illegality be due to felon status of some the men apparently involved? How do we address this? let us be mindful that this was the state/local guys search (Aptril 25), not the feds (June 7 and July 6), so there are no documents public yet as best I can determine. Vaoverland 03:31, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Michael Vick article content 

message: I think the article needs a thorough review as it has been growing with events and in the light of retrospect, could be presented better and more logically. I am thinking that a section to provide information on the individuals would be sensible. Comments or suggestions on that concept and any other aspect? Vaoverland 22:00, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorg overhaul suggestions 

message: The lead section has gradually grown bigger and bigger. It is accurate, but has become way too big. Some of the earlier details are just not major anymore. It needs to be condensed. Mark in Historic Triangle 18:49, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, but perhaps maybe get rid of the any information that is obsolete or irrelevant and prune it down a bit. --Hourick 20:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I hacked it down and made most of it an "Overview" section. It still needs cleanup, but at least you can see the TOC again. Sidatio 21:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead 

message: Not really sure why coordinates are given for this article, since it is about an investigation, which naturally has no fixed location. I suppose it's for the location of the kennel itself, but still. hateless 22:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coordinates? 

message: What follows is an exact replica of text i recently refractored from the main article.  It needs to be incorporated here, but seeing as I'm more focused on cleaning up the main article - i thought housing it here would be the first step Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  05:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Refractored text from Vick article

message: Following his court appearance on August 27, Vick made a statement at a press conference at the Omni Richmond Hotel in Richmond, Virginia, in which he apologized to many of the people he was "not honest and forthright" with, as well as to children who looked up to him, as well as denounced dog fighting.
|}
Begin in 1981? You mean Vick owned a dogfighting kennel when he was 1 year old! No wonder he's going to jail. I think that's supposed to be 2001.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.25.101.110 (talk) 00:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vick statement

message: I am adding this to the federal section of this article, for all four defendants in one box. --AEMoreira042281 (talk) 23:52, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox Criminal

message: I assume the word "investigation" was included very early on in the article creation, when it was a current news event and the charges were unproven.  Now that most of the participants have been found guilty or accepted plea bargains, I think we can and should call it an "incident" or "case" or the like.  Calling it an "investigation" gives the false impression that this article is about the investigation of the incident, when it is in fact about the incident itself.
Some clean-up is required.  The "timeline" section probably should be written out in prose and/or integrated into the article structure.Wikidemo (talk) 21:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *Oppose at this time (February 2008). While it will be absolutely necessary, I suggest that you re-propose once all of the STATE trials are closed. This article concerns the federal case (which is closed), AND the related state case which has separate charges (still OPEN, with trials to start in spring 2008. At that time, renaming it to a case may be warranted.--AEMoreira042281 (talk) 21:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

text: *Oppose at this time (February 2008). The Trials are still open, please to not rename  —Preceding unsigned comment added by S kirkness (talk • contribs) 18:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

text: *Rename - Just call it Bad Newz Kennels.  The article makes it clear that the investigation is the major event here, but it's inappropriate as a title since this wasn't spun off from a main article for Bad Newz Kennels. Torc2 (talk) 02:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

text: *Rename I agree with a change to Bad Newz Kennels at this time. I am the user who created this article, which was a spin-off from Michael Vick. It was just an investigation at that time, and of course, it develope dinto a lot more than just that. The subject is more than one "case" with more than one "bad guy", and more than a single event, since the story really includes disposition of the dogs also at this point, as well as still-pending trials, and ongoing civil items. I think the simplified name really adequately identifies the content for this well-known subject by now and is less limiting. Mark in Historic Triangle of Virginia (talk) 09:04, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *Comment Then try something like Bad Newz Kennels case, which is shorter and describes the article more succinctly. --AEMoreira042281 (talk) 00:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *Why would you insist on having 'case' in the title? It seems backwards to me not to make the kennel itself the center of the topic.Torc2 (talk) 06:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename article? 

message: This is the part of the article I feel most needs cleanup, being turned into easily followable prose to make the article look more presentable. --AEMoreira042281 (talk) 06:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timeline 

message: In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :) 
* "DP Interview" :
** ** 
DumZiBoT (talk) 02:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bot report : Found duplicate references ! 

message: I can't find anywhere in here what Oscar Allen was accused and convicted of.
== Relevance of race in support of Vick. ==
It is inappropriate to point out the race of people who supported Vick. Even if dog fighting is prevalent among African-American communities, this is a result of complex socio-economic, not racial, factors. Dog fighting persisted for centuries in Europe and the US among working-class white communities. That they were white was no more relevant. I am removing the reference to race.User:Johnpwm  —Preceding undated comment added 02:15, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Although it is self-evident upon clicking the links for each person, it does seem worth pointing out.  I'll run a search to see if anyone made a particular point of that.  The Blade of the Northern Lights  (話して下さい) 06:50, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

text: The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Moved to Bad Newz Kennels. Consensus on the shorter name.  – robertsky (talk) 18:12, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

text: Bad Newz Kennels dog fighting investigation →  – This article is about a dog-fighting ring. While "investigation" seems appropriate for the Timeline of the Bad Newz Kennels dog fighting investigation article, the title of this article should reflect the unambiguous results of that investigation - a ring was uncovered. When an investigation yields an unambiguous result, I can't see why the title of the article would say "investigation" instead of what that result was. When George Floyd's death was investigated and rules to be a murder, the resultant article title was "Murder of George Floyd," not "George Floyd death investigation." (I also think dog-fighting should be hyphenated but that's a topic for another day). Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 20:01, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

text: *Support Bad Newz Kennels per TarkusAB. Dekimasuよ! 15:49, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Allen?

message: It is inappropriate to point out the race of people who supported Vick. Even if dog fighting is prevalent among African-American communities, this is a result of complex socio-economic, not racial, factors. Dog fighting persisted for centuries in Europe and the US among working-class white communities. That they were white was no more relevant. I am removing the reference to race.User:Johnpwm  —Preceding undated comment added 02:15, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Although it is self-evident upon clicking the links for each person, it does seem worth pointing out.  I'll run a search to see if anyone made a particular point of that.  The Blade of the Northern Lights  (話して下さい) 06:50, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relevance of race in support of Vick. 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Moved to Bad Newz Kennels. Consensus on the shorter name.  – robertsky (talk) 18:12, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Bad Newz Kennels dog fighting investigation →  – This article is about a dog-fighting ring. While "investigation" seems appropriate for the Timeline of the Bad Newz Kennels dog fighting investigation article, the title of this article should reflect the unambiguous results of that investigation - a ring was uncovered. When an investigation yields an unambiguous result, I can't see why the title of the article would say "investigation" instead of what that result was. When George Floyd's death was investigated and rules to be a murder, the resultant article title was "Murder of George Floyd," not "George Floyd death investigation." (I also think dog-fighting should be hyphenated but that's a topic for another day). Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 20:01, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

text: *Support Bad Newz Kennels per TarkusAB. Dekimasuよ! 15:49, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 2 January 2024