Talk:Tahrir al-Wasilah

message: If the remaining issue is the factual accuracy of the incriminated sex-with-minors passages, let's try this.
==== Alleged Persian version====
Here's a short excerpt of the Persian edition according to the photographed page on the Homa website 
Kitab nikah ('Book of marriage'?), masala 12:
كتاب نكاح.
 مسالة ١٢
كتاب نكاح. مسالة ١٢ كسيكة زوجهاى كمتر از نه سال دار و طى آوبراى وى جاير نيست چه اينكه زوجۀ داءهى باشد، و چه منقطع، و امَا ساير...
====Alleged translated version====
Here's what it is claimed to be saying, according to the same website  and a lot of other web pages that have quoted ultimately from here:
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, ..."
====Alleged Arabic version====
Here's the corresponding passage in the Arabic edition from the zipped download file  of . It's in file tahrir25.htm.
Kitab al-nikah, masa'lah 12:
كتاب النكاح [...]:
مسألة 12
 لا يجوز وطء الزوجة قبل إكمال تسع سنين ، دواما كان النكاح أو منقطعا ،
 و أما سائر لاستمتاعات كاللمس بشهوة و الضم و التفخيذ فلا بأس بها حتى فى الرضيعة ،
 و لو وطأها قبل التسع و لم يفضها لم يترتب عليه شى‏ء غير الاثم على الاقوى ،
 و إن أفضاها بأن جعل مسلكى البول و الحيض واحدا أو مسلكى الحيض
 و الغائط واحدا حرم عليه وطؤها أبدا لكن على الاحوط فى الصورة الثانية ،
 و على أي حال لم تخرج عن زوجيته على الاقوى ، فيجري عليها أحكامها من التوارث
 و حرمة الخامسة و حرمة أختها معها و غيرها ، و يجب عليه نفقتها مادامت حية
 و إن طلقها بل و إن تزوجت بعد الطلاق على الاحوط ، بل لا يخلو من قوة ،
 و يجب عليه دية الافضاء ، و هى دية النفس ، فإذا كانت حرة فلها نصف دية
 الرجل مضافا إلى المهر الذي استحقته بالعقد و الدخول ،
 و لو دخل بزوجته بعد إكمال التسع فأفضاها لم تحرم عليه و لم تثبت الدية ،
 و لكن الاحوط الانفاق عليها مادامت حية و إن كان الاقوى عدم الوجوب
====Automatic translation of Arabic====
As I understand neither Persian nor Arabic, here's a (terrible, as usual) automatic online translation of the above Arabic :
:"Question 12: Does not be possible [wT'] the wife before completing nine ages, continuity was [aalnkaaH] or cut off, and mothers as for walking of the enjoyments as the touching in appetite and the joining the joining and [aaltfxydh] so courage in her until [fY] the infant, even though and paves her before the nine and blames does not open her does not become organized on him [shY] ['] other than the sin on strengthened, and indeed indeed ['afDaahaa] in to making [mslkY] the urine and the menstruation the menstruation one or [mslkY] the menstruation and [aalGaay'T] one ritual consecration on him [wTu'haa] never hit on [aalaaHwT] [fY] the image second, and on on any situation graduation about marital his on strengthened, so pulls me on her her arbitrators from the inheriting and wife of wife fifth and wife wife her of sister with her and changes her changes her, and be necessary be necessary on him her expense [maadaamt] live and indeed indeed free her yet and indeed indeed the divorce married after on [aalaaHwT] , yet [yxlw] from strength, and be necessary be necessary on him [dyt] the leading, and [hY] [dyt] the breath, so if was free so for her describes [dyt] the man added to the fillies who deserved him in the knots and the incomes the entering, even though his income in wife after completing the nine [f'afDaahaa] does not deprive on him and blames does not fix [aaldyt], and to is hit [aalaaHwT] the expenditure on her [maadaamt] live and indeed indeed was strengthened lack of the necessity."
It seems pretty clear to me that these two sources, at least, agree that this is the text in question. Which to me means we have done what is needed in terms of Verifiability. Anybody who has a friend who knows Arabic and has access to Interlibrary loan can now go and check if this is indeed what the real book says.
Lukas (T.|@) 12:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am a Persian native speaker. Here is my translation of the sentence:
Kitab nikah ('Book of marriage'?), masala 12:
كتاب نكاح.
 مسالة ١٢
كتاب نكاح. مسالة ١٢ كسيكة زوجهاى كمتر از نه سال دار و طى آوبراى وى جاير نيست چه اينكه زوجۀ داءهى باشد، و چه منقطع، و امَا ساير...
My translation:
Problem 12: Anyone who has a spouse (partner) younger than 9 years, sexual intercourse is not allowed, evenif they did permanent marriage or temporary marriage. 
Now compare it to the following translation:
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, ..."
Feel free to ask any Iranian wikipedians for Persian translation. We also need to make it clear that these are the rules of Islam and not Khomeini's personal invention. --Mitso Bel00:24, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks. Can you also verify on the photographed page at  whether it says something corresponding to the next bits in the purported translation? "... A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual act such as forplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not comitted a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. ..." By the way, your statement about this being general Islamic traditional rules and not original to Khomeini might itself be in need of verification. Can you find corresponding passages in other similar, older works, or dig out what the ultimate roots are? Lukas (T.|@) 00:53, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotes 

message: As I understand neither Persian nor Arabic, here's a (terrible, as usual) automatic online translation of the above Arabic :
:"Question 12: Does not be possible [wT'] the wife before completing nine ages, continuity was [aalnkaaH] or cut off, and mothers as for walking of the enjoyments as the touching in appetite and the joining the joining and [aaltfxydh] so courage in her until [fY] the infant, even though and paves her before the nine and blames does not open her does not become organized on him [shY] ['] other than the sin on strengthened, and indeed indeed ['afDaahaa] in to making [mslkY] the urine and the menstruation the menstruation one or [mslkY] the menstruation and [aalGaay'T] one ritual consecration on him [wTu'haa] never hit on [aalaaHwT] [fY] the image second, and on on any situation graduation about marital his on strengthened, so pulls me on her her arbitrators from the inheriting and wife of wife fifth and wife wife her of sister with her and changes her changes her, and be necessary be necessary on him her expense [maadaamt] live and indeed indeed free her yet and indeed indeed the divorce married after on [aalaaHwT] , yet [yxlw] from strength, and be necessary be necessary on him [dyt] the leading, and [hY] [dyt] the breath, so if was free so for her describes [dyt] the man added to the fillies who deserved him in the knots and the incomes the entering, even though his income in wife after completing the nine [f'afDaahaa] does not deprive on him and blames does not fix [aaldyt], and to is hit [aalaaHwT] the expenditure on her [maadaamt] live and indeed indeed was strengthened lack of the necessity."
It seems pretty clear to me that these two sources, at least, agree that this is the text in question. Which to me means we have done what is needed in terms of Verifiability. Anybody who has a friend who knows Arabic and has access to Interlibrary loan can now go and check if this is indeed what the real book says.
Lukas (T.|@) 12:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am a Persian native speaker. Here is my translation of the sentence:
Kitab nikah ('Book of marriage'?), masala 12:
كتاب نكاح.
 مسالة ١٢
كتاب نكاح. مسالة ١٢ كسيكة زوجهاى كمتر از نه سال دار و طى آوبراى وى جاير نيست چه اينكه زوجۀ داءهى باشد، و چه منقطع، و امَا ساير...
My translation:
Problem 12: Anyone who has a spouse (partner) younger than 9 years, sexual intercourse is not allowed, evenif they did permanent marriage or temporary marriage. 
Now compare it to the following translation:
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, ..."
Feel free to ask any Iranian wikipedians for Persian translation. We also need to make it clear that these are the rules of Islam and not Khomeini's personal invention. --Mitso Bel00:24, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks. Can you also verify on the photographed page at  whether it says something corresponding to the next bits in the purported translation? "... A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual act such as forplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not comitted a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. ..." By the way, your statement about this being general Islamic traditional rules and not original to Khomeini might itself be in need of verification. Can you find corresponding passages in other similar, older works, or dig out what the ultimate roots are? Lukas (T.|@) 00:53, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Automatic translation of Arabic

message: I dont wish to get involved in this particular aticle. It is highly political, far more than I can handle, considering my personal situation.
However, some points I must mention:
#The Resalah Tawzihat that Lukas mentioned to me is not the same as this book. They are different.
#However they may harbor the same contents at times.
#This brings me to the point that such decrees (about having sex with ...) are not Khomeini's ideas in the making. He is merely passing on a view transferred to him that goes back to the age of Muhammad himself. Girls were married to men at very young ages back then.
#That's why you may find such contents in other Islamic fiqh books too.
#Furthermore, the Islamic tradition is not the only one that held such views. I do recall seeing similar obscene material in old copies of the Talmud.
#So this sex with 9 year old thing is being quoted out of context. One has to consider its background. 7th century pagan Arabia was so sexist that they buried their daughters alive.
Personally, and I repeat personally, I think the man was an anti-academic zealot. As is the case with people who twist and abuse religion, his fanaticism has left us Iranians a legacy that we (I) am not particularly proud of. The Islam I (and many others) adhere to is the non-political one such as that of Nasr, or even Avicenna or Biruni, where Islam and science tend to coalesce, not Islam and politics.
That being said, Khomeini was not the only such fanatic retrograde. The world is full of them, whether in Iran, or in the west. That's why I choose to avoid this debate. because people fail to see this last point. And his book was not filled only with such content. It had other contents as well. Focusing on a selected negative parts is an intentional undertaking which I do not wish to be part of.--Zereshk 21:54, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your comments. Makes sense to me. - As I said to Zereshk, I'll get the English translation of that Persian-language "Resaleh" book, which seems to be actually the one that the Persian quotes on the web are taken from, and check that one. From the comparison above it seems that its structure and overall content (down to the numbering of sections) correspond closely to the "Tahrir". Lukas (T.|@) 22:35, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Points

message: Since the book is still quite disputed, could someone add to the "external links" or a section "history of book" some links or information that allows those unfamiliar to understand both sides of the argument and evidence of genuineness. Thanks. FT2 (Talk) 12:00, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: *Tahrir Al wasila was blanked.--Patchouli 10:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Blanking links

message: People who don't really want to learn anything about Islam or Shi'ism. People who just want to condemn it. 
They are frankly excited by the allegations, and are too interested in their agenda to be cautious.
You won't see any of these types actually researching the book, or inquiring about the punishment for child molestation in Iran (click http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4353449.stm here, for an example - there are others - including a case in Tehran - for anyone who spends time looking).
If someone has a genuine interest, they should have been able to come up with these things, by themselves, without someone else having to spoon-feed them.Johan77 05:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I didnt get your point. Which allegations? --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 19:21, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh yes you did, Matt. You know exactly which ones I'm talking aobut.Johan77 22:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who Is Attracted To These Allegations? 

message: :Image:Tahrir-ul-Vaseela.jpeg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 06:28, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Tahrir-ul-Vaseela.jpeg

message: There is a note on where it was written but not when.  Can we get referenced answers on that?  RJFJR (talk) 16:00, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no fourth volume. this is propaganda spread by american and arab right wingers. 141.156.160.74 (talk) 22:43, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  When written? 

message: I removed the section "Tahrirolvasyleh by Ayatollah Khomeini"
"
• "A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he should not penetrate, but sodomising is acceptable. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girls sister." - From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Problem 12, Darol Elm, Qom, Iran, 1990
• "A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on. However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to the next door village should be fine." - From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Qom, Iran, 1990
"
The second section lacks any exact citations that cite the page number or problem number (the first one lacked them as well, but I managed to find it, however : http://www.tooba-ir.org/_book/AHKAM/tahrir/Tahrir4/tahr0019.htm#link102
The problem #1 in this subsection is talking about the punishment of having sex with animals,  and it is considered as a universal fact that sex with animals is illegal by the Shia.
As for the first problem, I did some research, which I will share here :
The Arabic of the first lines, which are the controversial bits are "لا يجوز وطء الزوجة قبل إكمال تسع سنين ، دواما كان النكاح أو منقطعا ،
و أما سائر لاستمتاعات كاللمس بشهوة و الضم و التفخيذ فلا بأس بها حتى فى الرضيعة ،"
Meaning (I know a Persian and English and a bit of Arabic)
This is what it means : Having sex with the wife is illegal before reaching nine years, be it a permanent or a timed [timed marriage in shia], but the rest of acts like foreplaying [touching for sexual pleasure], hugging and Tafkhid is legal even with a baby.
First, Sodomy is considered a kind of sex and penetration.
Secondly : Now on the meaning of Tafkhid : Tafkhid as I researched, does not mean Sodomy.
It means : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercrural_sex
First in his discussion, more than one source is given that translated Tafkhid as Intercrural sex: http://www.iranclubs.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7254
تفخیذا - ای یضع ذکره بین فخذیها - و 
This is another arabic translation, that puts Tafkhid as "putting his member between her thighs"
Another person :
از المنجد :
تفخیذ : هم زانو شدن ، در گرفتن ، در ران کردن چیزی را ، نسبت کردن هر فخذ را به سوی قبله ای .
Again, meaning Intercrucal
Under masa'ala 12 : http://www.tooba-ir.org/_book/AHKAM/tahrir/Tahrir4/tahr0001.htm#link2 you can find the link to this : 
http://www.tooba-ir.org/_book/AHKAM/tahrir/Tahrir4/footnt01.htm#link4
 4- با ران او شهوترانى كردن .
To pleasure from her thighs (The religious way of saying it)
Also here :
http://www.islam4u.com/daily_question_show.php?fq_id=1429
و اصطلاحاً هو إدخال الرجل ذَكَره بين فخذي من يجامعه دون الدخول في الدبر أو القبل ، و التفخيذ لغير زوجته و حليلته محرم و عليه حدّ .
Tafkhid means a man putting his member between the thighs of the person whom he is copulating with, be it from before or behind, and Tafkhid except with the wife and who is halal (Don't confuse halal with haram which means mother,sister,aunt,etc) is illegal and has hadd[punishments].
I think this is enough to conclude that the Tafkhid does not mean Sodomy.80.253.137.10 (talk) 15:34, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. It`s not sodomy. It`s just "normal" sexual child abuse.--89.144.205.104 (talk) 21:57, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding a controversy section and removing a section 

message: It is filled with uncited and unsourced claims and it is written so biased and POV, and so unencyclopedia like ("So even if this quote were originally from Khomeini, "even if it is an infant" is probably the translator's exaggeration of "They are legal as longs the marriage is legal".") it would probably be best to delete the whole thing and start over 99.231.211.103 (talk) 04:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: this page is terrible

message: Google'ing Khomeini and the book show up countless pages referencing those 3 particularly explicit and controversial quotes regarding sex from this book, but at the same time there does not seem to be any exact references to sections of the book where these quotes are from and also there are numerous (although in the minority it seems) sites claiming that they are all false again, not stating exactly why. And that's leaving aside all the issues regarding semantics and meanings of certain words. A very, very strange situation really. RubberTyres (talk) 00:20, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Basis for commonly used quotes 

message: Have attempted to cleanup the article, adding much information. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:36, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: We have a statement in the article  that is cited to the book itself. How can it be that the book by Khomeini criticizes Khomeini? This seems like original research. In order for there to be critics we need some third party reliable sources.VR talk 11:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Since no one provided secondary sources to this, I have removed it.VR talk 22:25, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Probably original research