Talk:Polish Operation of the NKVD

message: This article could use a new title. The current one suggests Polish involvement in the NKVD. Appleseed (Talk) 21:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Title

message: I strongly disagree with the name. The current name is beaurocratic euphemism to cover mass persecutions of Poles.
I think Extermination of Poles by NKVD is much better (100 000 guys killed)
Cautious 09:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the article the name seems to be one from an 3rd party source, better to use that name than to make one up. --Philip Baird Shearer 11:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a good point. If I steal your watch and name this "Return of the appliance" you would cease name it "theft"? Cautious 21:09, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a difference how things are called in newspapers and in scholar articles. You would not call a reseacrher from Memorial Society a Stalin sympathiser, would you? I strongly suggest you to read his book. His dispassionate tale is much more impressive than emotional epitets. And much more convincing, too. `'Míkka 01:05, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

text: It is historian slang then. OK New proposal What is about NKVD liquidation operation against Poles  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cautious (talk • contribs) 10:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New name please 

message: Cautious raised an important issue about some of the wording in the article Genocides in history article when writing on the article's talk page:
:I don't understand why somebody claims following "In legal terms, the word "genocide" may not be appropriate, because there was no proven intent to destroy a specific national, ethnic, racial or religious group."
:The good example is Soviet extermination of Poles 1937-1938. We have documented the whole operation directed for the ethnic group selected due to nationality. We have documented number of victims.
What else is needed to remove this false statement?? Cautious 09:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mass murder

message: According to discussion on forum.axis, not all from 111.000 were Poles. E.g. In 1937 there were 20.000 shot Poles and around 10.000 shot Russians, Latvians, Jews, Germans within "Polish operation", accused for cooperation, friendship, relations with Poles. 
Szopen (talk) 10:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That is right. Here is what Timothy Snyder writes: In the largest of these, the “Polish Operation” that began in August 1937, 111,091 people accused of espionage for Poland were shot. In his book, Bloodlands.Snyder adds: Not all of these were Poles, but most of them were. Poles were also targeted disproportionately in the kulak action (...) By a conservative estimate some eighty-five thousand Poles were executed in 1937 and 1938. And here is what Nicolas Werth says in Unfortunately, we do not know exactly how many members of the diaspora nationalities were arrested, sentenced and executed, since not everyone arrested in the Polish Operation, for example, was a Pole or a Soviet citizen of Polish origin, [nor were all arrested Poles or Soviet citizens of Polish origin included in the Polish Operation.] The number 111 091 tells how many people were killed in the "Polish Operation", not how many ethnic Poles that were killed.Iselilja (talk) 19:41, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  111.000 Poles 

message: I find the new title rather dubious... All the sources in the article, with one exception (that yelds just 4 Google hits, and whose author is a conservative journalist), constantly refer to the events as the "Polish operation". Moreover, a simple Google Books search shows that "Genocide of Poles" is used to refer to the policies of Nazi Germany or their Ukrainian (anti-Soviet) collaborators, never to a policy of the Soviet Union. On the other hand "polish operation" is an established term. Since page move is a rather major edit, I bypassed the revert part of BRD, hoping we can reach an amiable solution. Thank you Anonimu (talk) 19:53, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually this article mostly concerns English-speakers (it's en.wikipedia after all), and the phrase is practically absent in the English speaking world. A simple filter to exclude on-line bookshops leaves a mere 97 hits if we excluded the words "buy", "order" and the Polish equivalents, and half of that if we also excluded "price" and Polish equivalent. The remaining links are: further online stores! (the books seems to have a good marketing), library catalogs entries for Sonners's book and some forums. Basically, it seems that, even in Polish, the term is exclusively used by Sonner. Moreover, a closer look shows that the publishing house, 3S Media, is actually owned by Sonner[ref], so per Wikipedia policy about self-published sources I'll have to remove any reference to it from articles(it can be used in the article about Sonner when it will be created). Anonimu (talk) 22:54, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The link I've provided identifies him as one of the owners of the publishing house... moreover, the website of the publishing house calls him a founder and finance director. This makes the book a self-published one, thus failing WP:RS - it has nothing to do with language. The new title uses an extremely politicised term to call a series events which do have an established English name: "polish operation" (all the sources in the article, except Sommer, call it that way).Anonimu (talk) 06:28, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

text: More feedback is still very much needed. For example, Marek Jan Chodakiewicz in his article for Rzeczpospolita uses the term: the greatest massacre of Poles in the times of peace ("największa rzeź Polaków w czasach pokojowych"). The choice of words, which would describe the topic of this article unambiguously is somewhat limited. Chodakiewicz writes further on: Unequivocally – according to definition by Raphael Lemkin – we're dealing here with the genocide ("Jednoznacznie więc – zgodnie z definicją Rafała Lemkina – mamy tu do czynienia z ludobójstwem"). See: 'Notes'. — Stawiski (talk) 16:30, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Since you asked for feedback, I have to support Anonimu's position. The Wikipedia policy on article names is WP:COMMONNAME, favoring the most common English name for an article's subject. According to Google Books, there are 674 results for "Polish operation" together with "Soviet"  and about 300 results for "genocide of Poles"  (describing the wartime actions of Nazi Germany and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army). Polish usage does not affect the policy of WP:COMMONNAME, but the name on Polish Wikipedia is also "Polish operation" (Operacja polska NKWD). P.S. I now see that Stawiski has been banned as a sockpuppet of Loosmark, who was first banned from the encyclopedia in 2010 before returning here as Stawiski and renaming the article. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 00:59, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The new title 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Polish Operation of the NKVD. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.balticnorthernminorities.org/pdf/project_abstracts.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111018085732/http://www.grhs.org/heritage/SovietRepression.pdf to http://www.grhs.org/heritage/SovietRepression.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120323100829/http://fronda.gliwice.pl/czytelnia.php5?id=84 to http://fronda.gliwice.pl/czytelnia.php5?id=84
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111003143755/http://historyton.pl/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=11729 to http://historyton.pl/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=11729
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 11:22, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Preserving here by providing this link. There's some c/e and a rewrite of the "Genocide characterization" section which I renamed to "Asessment". I took out Montefiore, as he provides a comment in passing; it's also unclear what a "mini-genocide" is. Tomasz Sommer, a journalist and author, is undue. "Among others" is original research & it's unclear who these "others" are and if sources are reliable. I also removed the liberal use of "genocide" terminology, as it does not align with RS, i.e. :Category:Genocides in Europe. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:10, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with removals of several sources. However, the sourced opinions/views by both Simon Sebag Montefiore and Tomasz Sommer should be included per WP:NPOV. Passing or not does not really matter because author is notable historian, and there is no any policy-based reason to exclude journalists, especially when they do research and publish books on the subject. Also this source - was not it reliably published? We do have a page about the author, Marek Jan Chodakiewicz. I think his views must also be mentioned per WP:NPOV. My very best wishes (talk) 21:38, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur. It would be better to propose removal of specific stuff on talk first. Also I note that this edit is very similar to . Granted, even indef banned users can make valid points sometimes, and I don't want to poison the well, still, I think we should be rather careful with adding content that was/is supported by such users, particularly ones which are socking right and left right now. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:00, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

text: I agree that opinion of Sommer counts because he did research in this area. I disagree about Montefiore. People express personal opinions about many things and we cannot include each and every of them. IMO in an encyclopedic article only facts and opinions opinions about facts of experts on the subject count. Otherwise articles will turn into POV mess. Lembit Staan (talk) 16:22, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrites 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:59, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion