Talk:Tokyo/Archive 2

message: The Wikipedia article Tokyo is about Tokyo-to. Other names for it are Tokyo Metropolis and Tokyo Prefecture. The article is not just about the city of Tokyo, which is inside Tokyo-to along with two dozen other municipalities. It's also about the other municipalities.
Tokyo-to, the subject of this article, is not a city under Japanese law. Tokyo-to is incorporated as a metropolis. It is like a province, or a state of the United States, or other prefectures of Japan. Tokyo-to has a governor, like a province or a state or a prefecture. It does not have a mayor, city council, or body corporate the way New York City does.
Tokyo-to is analogous to the State of New York. It's geographically larger than the former city of Tokyo. Its government is a prefectural (or provincial or state) government, not a city government. 
Decades ago, there was a Tokyo City. Up to 1943, the City of Tokyo had a mayor and a city council and wards and was very closely analogous to the City of New York within the larger State of New York. Just as both the city and the state have the name New York, both the city and the prefecture had the name Tokyo. In 1943, Tokyo City was disbanded. Presently, no municipality has the name Tokyo. Instead, 23 legal entities, each an individual city, occupy the boundaries of the former city of Tokyo. These are the 23 special wards. Each special ward has its own mayor and city council. Each has a name, and several special wards use the word "city" as part of their English name.
These 23 special wards together do not make up all of Tokyo-to. Tokyo-to encompasses two dozen more cities, towns and villages, ranging from dense suburbs to farms, forests, mountains and islands, including remote islands with no permanent population such as Iwo Jima. Some of these stretch a thousand miles and more from the bright lights of Ginza.
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The discussion below is based on an earlier version of the preceding explanation. To see the discussion in context, read an earlier version (click history and click a version on, for example, July 9). Fg2 11:14, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a legal technicality. In common usage both inside and outside Japan Tokyo is thought of as a city, albeit an extremely large one with a unique governmental system. --D. Meyer 23:00, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not a legal technicality: It is reality. It is impossible to have a proper, even basic discussion about Tokyo when assuming it is a city, because within the borders of Tokyo there are numerous entities such as Hachioji City which are very clearly designated and acceptable cities, and cities do not exist within cities. This point is not up for discussion, the NOTE: is left at the top of the talk page because it has been settled on numerous occasions in the past and it does not need to be argued any further.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:19, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You and the original author of this section are assuming a detailed technical definition for the word "city" that is not born out in common usage. The Japanese have no difficulty using the word "city" for both Hachioji and Tokyo, and the official term "Metropolitan" as well as "Metropolis" used by the section author refer to kinds of cities. --D. Meyer 05:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tokyo is one of 47 prefectures of Japan. Although -to (都) is usually translated as metropolis and metropolis usually means major city, people in Japan rarely consider Tokyo-to as a city. --Kusunose 06:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you verify that "rarely"? I have direct testimony from two individuals in Japan plus the Tokyo Metro. Gov't website and 147,000 other Japanese websites considering Tokyo a city. Of course, Tokyo is one of Japan's prefectures, but it is at the same time Japan's leading city. It is also true that Tokyo is not a city like Hachioji or Osaka or New York, but the absolute "Tokyo is not a city" is pedantry at best. If there is really a problem with editors using "Tokyo City" in a way that suggests there still exists a governmental entity called 東京市 requiring a rule like this to be spelled out, "Tokyo is both a city and a prefecture" is the simple, correct, common sense answer. --D. Meyer 07:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

text: There are dozens of municipalities incorporated as cities inside Tokyo. I'd rephrase that as something like: "There are a lot of suburbs and towns incorporated as shi inside Tokyo." These shi extend to such dormitory suburbs as Komae, Tokyo, population under 80,000. If Japanese officialdom cares to translate shi here as "city", that's fine with me. (Ditto if it cares to translate ku [borough] as "city" rather than "ward".) I don't even mind if en-WP calls Komae-shi (or Arakawa-ku) a city: after all, this has a considerable comedy value. But to say (other than in some legal context) that Tokyo can't be a city because a city can't contain other cities such as Komae -- that really seems too absurd. -- Hoary 08:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really understand why you choose Komae as an example: it's well known that city borders are calculated rather tightly in Japan (giving the appearance of lower urban population) and Komae has a population density more than three times that of Toronto, which gives it a pretty good reason to be a city. Mr Meyer seems equally misinformed, as your link to the Tokyo Metropolitan Government page provides the user with a link to the Tokyo Metropolitan Government's "TOKYO City Information" radio program, which broadcasts information to Tokyo residents living in cities and/or experiencing city life. As for the "detailed definition" that you seem to believe doesn't exist, please read city, especially the section about the way the word city can have different explicitly defined boundries in different regions of the world. Just because you're not willing to admit the existance of an entity larger than a city (a metropolis) doesn't mean that it's not real.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  00:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought of Komae because I knew it was small; I hadn't known it was the smallest but WP told me this. OK then, how about Akishima? ¶ Yes, I know that "city" has a variety of definitions. Yes, I know that there are bigger conurbations than mere cities; just to take one example, as I type this, I'm sitting close to what is regarded as the center of the world's greatest (or anyway, um, superlativest) megalopolis, the Ōmiya-to-Ōfuna monster. This particular part of it is called Tokyo, and Tokyo is routinely called a city in the lects of English with which I'm familiar. There are certainly occasions where it is better referred to as something else, but its inclusion of such suburbs as Akishima (population circa 110 thou, a shopping mall being its only feature noted by en-WP) seems a bizarre reason to disqualify it as a city. For better or worse, cities these days do tend to contain such suburbs as Akishima; this is part of their city-ness. -- Hoary 04:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

text: From my own studies, the closest things to Tokyo-to (東京都) in the United States are New York City, which has five Boroughs (originally Counties prior to incorporation into the New York City metropolitan government) (vs. twenty-three Towns for Tokyo-to), and the District of Columbia, which has five towns within the District; both are run by mayors rather than a governor, but one government rules each of the three, notwithstanding structural differences. - B.C.Schmerker 00:42, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Thank you, Fg2, for a very thoughtful, accurate, balanced, and not-at-all-pedantic summary of a situation that will never be perfectly resolved. I can live with "Tokyo-to is not a city". --D. Meyer 07:21, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  If only Hideki Tojo hadn't been executed.... WhisperToMe 05:45, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Agreed. Tokyo-to, as an administrative unit, is not a city. Tokyo (IMO, equivalent to the 23区), however, is a city in the sense that people identify it as their hometown, the city where they live, the big city where they go to shop, or whatever. Legal constructs and mental/societal ones don't always coincide perfectly. adamrice 15:57, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Note: Tokyo-to is not a city

message: "Capital functions relocation plan
　Capital functions relocation is planned for a long time in Tokyo. Capital functions relocation is to move from Tokyo to 60km outside if a present capital is mentioned in Tokyo. It clearly remains the stop of the plan at present also being. (The "首都機能移転" retrieval in detail in Wikipedia Japanese. )"
A wonderful example of engrish that needs to be adjusted.
66.240.10.170 03:04, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capital functions relocation plan 

message: Tokyo Tower   freshgavin TALK    06:38, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  whats the point ? 

message: ...I think it's just a waste of space? I mean it only has a couple of sentences!!
:It replaced an article that was long out of proportion to the other sections in Tokyo, so we kept it just as a link to the article. In short, no, we don't need a section, we only need a couple of sentences to direct the reader to the main article. Fg2 09:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does this article really need the "tourist" section... 

message: I have searched and searched for a reference saying that London is one of Tokyo's sister cities, and haven't found any, this is a real list on Tokyo's sister cities, and London is not one of them:
Jackp 03:13, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  London is not a sister city 

message: We read: Tokyo still sees new or renewed urban centers being developed on large lots of idle land.
One of the examples given is Roppongi Hills. It's a place where rich people live, flashy companies have offices, and the impressionable shop and eat expensively; all right, let's aggrandize that as an "urban center". But it certainly wasn't on idle land. The land was being used, and rather intensively. For example, there was an excellent (and pretty new) record store (called Wave) with an excellent cinema in its basement. There were unpretentious, pleasant restaurants, and there were places where moderately normal people lived. Perhaps it was "idle" in the sense of "not maximizing profit". Mori bought up the land, pulled down what was there, and replaced it with something that it calculated would bring in a lot more money. Just run-of-the-mill late capitalism at work. 
I'm not sure how I'd rephrase this, but the way it's phrased now looks too much like a Mori PR release. -- Hoary 10:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've reworded it. -- Hoary 13:26, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Idle land

message: Reviewing (and passing) this article for Version 0.5 I notice that the references section is rather weaker than it should be for an A-Class article. Only two refs are given - both on the economic aspects - one is an internal link and the other is a dead external link. For an article of this prominence and length there should be at least a dozen references. Could the people who contributed to this article please let us know where their information came from? Another thing: I was intrigued to see that Tokyo has such a huge economy of $1.3 trillion, but there is little I can read about it. The section in THIS article is fine, but surely such an important world-scale economy deserves its own article, along the lines of articles like Economy of Vancouver or Economy of Toronto? Or am I missing something? Thanks, Walkerma 04:47, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References, article on the economy 

message: Which 20 cities have the largest GPD's, if someone has a list, could they please post it? I know the first five is something like Tokyo, NYC, London, Paris, LA, so does anyone know the remaining 14??? 202.6.138.35 12:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  So what are the 20 largest GPD's? 

message: Which part of Tokyo are shows like Aberenbo SHougun, Super Sentai and other tokusatsu filmed?
:Abarembo Shogun was filmed in Kyoto, not Tokyo. Fg2 20:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know about the others, but there were formerly Shochiku studios in Kamakura (at Ofuna outside of Tokyo). There were also Nikkatsu studios in Chofu, a city in Tokyo. Toei formerly filmed at what is now Toei Animation in Nerima. Fg2 21:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: TOEI Productions

message: Open request to all users: Please improve Israel-Japan relations as you see fit. Thanks, Republitarian 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Israel-Japan relations

message: Does anyone know why Shinjuku is currently stated to be the "capital" of Tokyo ? As far as I understand, the metropolitan government is located in Shinjuku ward, but that does not mean 
this ward is any different from any of the other 22 ? Tensaibuta 14:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe this is interpreting "capital" as the seat of government, even though there is no "by law" proclamation. It would certainly be possible to clarify this in the text. -- Rick Block (talk) 16:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Shinjuku as the capital of Tokyo is a made-up "fact" by a Wikipedia contributor, and I am pretty sure has no currency in Japan. Although city hall is there, not all city functions are headquartered there. It's worth noting there's nothing like this assertion in the Japanese wikipedia article on Tokyo or Shinjuku, which simply note it as the ward where city hall is located. It should be removed. adamrice 20:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I removed "shinjuku", but it is inside a Template, so "capital" remains. If anyone knows how to remove the line, please do so. Tensaibuta 23:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done. adamrice 13:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Can someone give a reason why Shinjuku should not be the capital, if this article supports the "Tokyo as a prefecture, Wards as Cities" stance? Here is a link to the Tokyo metropolitan government homepage which says that "Tokyo" as the capital of Tokyo prefecture, as often written, is wrong. It also states the capital (interpreted as tochoshozaichi) is Shinjuku-ku. http://www.chijihon.metro.tokyo.jp/sonota/syozaiti.htm 221.185.178.7 15:41, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Shinjuku as "Capital" ?

message: I added a politics link under the Tokyo#Geography and administrative divisions section. Perhaps we should try write a bit more on local politics in that section. --Jonte-- 14:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding politics link 

message: A survey is being conducted at Wikipedia_talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related_articles)#Prefectures and macrons to determine which prefectures should have their spelling "macron-ized", per the existing manual of style. Oita has been changed already, and each of the others is current being discussed (Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto, Hokkaido, Hyogo, and Kochi). Please join the discussion if you wish. Neier 00:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  spelling of prefectures 

message: Recently there have been many new external links added, but the quality of many of these is just not up to standard as they add very little in the way of information or the information they offer is already available in another link.
Particularly map related links:
Interactive satellite view from yesterday at ExploreOurPLa.net - The quality of this map is very poor and offers no additional information. Indeed it offers less than the standard Google Earth. I think this link should be removed.
: Daily satellite pictures from ExploreOurPla.net do not target quality in terms of houses or cars. Instead it shows current weather conditions, smog and fires for example. The archive goes back 2 years, all of these 700+ maps are more actual and real than constructed and mosaiqued maps from google and others. In the long term it shows changing infrastructure and land use. Btw. the interface offers a comparison with gmaps, landsat7 and others.
:--Noiv 22:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just pared down the link list using a simple criterion: is the link's content only about Tokyo? If no, out it went. And the official Tokyo Gov link goes on top. Jpatokal 06:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor quality external links 

message: A continued discussion of external links, but specifically about maps.
I still don't think we have found a good map for Tokyo. Obviously if Google did cover Japan in English then it would be a good option, but they don't so I think we need to have a good option(s). I have noticed that Microsoft and Yahoo! maps of Tokyo are also in Japanese.
I have looked further at the WikiSatellite view of Tokyo at WikiMapia and the more I have looked at it, the less I like about it. Many of the links on the map contain incorrect information, spam or offensive comments. There is very little in the way of good information within the links to the key points.
There are some good points to like about the http://www.jref.com/practical/tokyo_areas_map.shtml map with all the points of interest listed below, however the listed points do not actually interact with the map. This means that there is actually very little on the map of great use.
I noticed that www.japan-guide.com seems to use a series of maps to cover Tokyo and in some respects there is merit in this. Their detailed maps of areas like Ginza and Harajuku are good, however I did notice that sometimes it becomes confusing as their drawings are stylistic rather than realistic. This means that some things aren't actually in the right place and proportions.
I notice that http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/tokyo/tokyomap.htm has been upgraded and they are now claiming over 120 points of interest. Many points now have information and links to detailed information. A few have pictures. This map now has some merit to it. It would be very handy in a PDA when exploring Tokyo. It could do with some simple continuous city labels and some more information on each point of interest.
I noticed that www.tourism.metro.tokyo.jp doesn't seem to have any good maps on it either.
Whats up skip 04:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Map Links 

message: This article is a good article candidate. Visit the nominations page and pass or fail it when you've read it. --Gray PorpoisePhocoenidae, not Delphinidae 22:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good article 

message: :de:Präfektur Tokio/:de:Tokio, :fi:Tokion prefektuuri/:fi:Tokio, :fr:Préfecture de Tōkyō/:fr:Tōkyō, :ja:東京/:ja:東京都, :nl:Tokio (prefectuur)/:nl:Tokio
Tokyo Prefecture is not a Tokyo. --Guiyuizz 13:09, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge to Tokyo Prefecture 

message: I was about to review the article when I noticed a significant lack of references. I suggest you back up more of the text with some citations in order to make GA status likely. LestatdeLioncourt talk 19:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA nomination note 

message: The article is still lacking citations after the previous message. Since it's been over a week, I've removed it as a Good Article candidate. Please feel free to renominate it once citations are in place and the article is more thoroughly sourced. Shimeru 22:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Failed Good Article

message: This looks like an automatically generated message. I cannot see any obvious spam links. I think the statement should be removed. Whats up skip 06:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article or section may contain spam.