Talk:Angeles City/Archive 4

message: Fr. Shay Cullen, a children’s rights advocate and three time Nobel Peace Prize nominee has spent 37 years of service helping the children of the Philippines and in particular Angeles.http://www.preda.orghttp://www.preda.org/archives/2000/r00040001.html
There are more welfare groups and Human Rights Moniters in Angeles then anywhere else in the Philippines.
This is due to serious social problems in Angeles.
http://www.preda.org/archives/hl/wvb.html
http://qc.indymedia.org/news/2005/03/2736.php
http://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/San/public/%7B7B62844A-267E-4E9A-82F9-224DC2FDA3E8%7D/09threportinquiryintoprostitutionfinalreportpt1/09threportinquiryintoprostitutionfinalreportpt1/html/09threportinquiryintoprostitutionfinalreportpt1_39.htmurl = http://www.ips.fi/koulut/199742/6.htm
http://www.preda.org/archives/2004/r04062801.html
Preda has been actively involved in Angeles for numerous years.
The intervention of Preda into the Mango business over the past years has helped.http://www.preda.net/article/ftpreventprostitution.html
The Salvation Army set up office there in 2005 and have been active in helping.
http://www1.salvationarmy.org/ihq/www_sa.nsf/vw-issue/53AA2BA6043E361C80257185004AE3C9?opendocument&id=34A6BDBBDD01C4F080257185004AA335
Another charity group, ReachOut Foundation International, with funding from USAID, PATH, and FHI launched a comprehensive AIDS/STD prevention program targeting the brothel-based female sex workers and their partners in this slum community. Angeles has the largest incidence of HIV and STD cases in the country.
http://www.aegis.org/conferences/iac/2002/D11246.html
Other women’s organizations include Women’s Legal Bureau, Women’s Crisis Center, Women’s Health Care Foundation, Conspectus, Kalayaan); the Nagkakaisang Kababaihan ng Angeles City Multi-Purpose Cooperative (NKAC, or United Women of Angeles City Multi-Purpose Cooperative) in Angeles City.
http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/mhvbt.htm
The Women’s Health Care Foundation, WEDPRO sponsors a clinic in Angeles City."  
Now im sure this should make everyone happy and can not see why such an article would be a problem to any law abiding normal citizen.
If anyone is still not happy, pls enlighten us in the interests of dispute resolution, kind regards,
Susanbryce 20:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Welfare Groups

message: Im wondering if we can use local philippine newspapers for reference here, its in tagalog, not english, thats the problemSusanbryce 14:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: using non-english citations

message: I have corrected the false information that Angeles is a "slum city" and "3rd class city"
according to National Statistics Coordination Board of the Philippines, Angeles is a First Class City. http://www.nscb.gov.ph/activestats/psgc/municipality.asp?muncode=035401000®code=03&provcode=54 
also added "outside the United States Mainland" to the information saying Clark was the largest base. obviously it was just an oversight to not include that phrase. RodentofDeath 07:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed references to Angeles being a "slum city" 

message: is there a reason you are removing well documented facts from the page, such as father cullen's arrest for raping a 7 year old, and continually adding the word "slum" even though it has been proven and documented that Angeles is not a slum but a 1st class city??? You also remove documented references to the low number of HIV cases. is this because it does not fit in with your agenda of trying to trash a city based on biased and/or completely absurd figures? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RodentofDeath (talk • contribs) 01:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  SUSANBRYCE why are you vandalising the page? 

message: i removed the words "an enourmous amount of" (spelling error not mine) and "due to the serious social problems in Angeles." because while the links provided do point to a a few welfare groups and a few cases of arrest it is clear that the words "enormous amount" and "serious social problems" are nothing but the opinion of a few people intent on publicizing the city of Angeles in an extremely negative and unwarranted light. there certainly is no reason to call a handful of cases in a city of a quarter million people "an enormous amount". RodentofDeath 10:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More over-inflated opinions removed. 

message: Clean up of one person conitnually inserting mis-information and distortions about Angeles City needed. RodentofDeath 01:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved the template to the top because it was putting the table of contents for the talk page under it. RJFJR 17:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Add the  back — scorpion prinz 17:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Done. --Chris S. 01:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup task force

message: Fascinating battle here, but if someone has some good historical information, what's left of the article could use some work.
"Being the former home of the biggest American base outside of the United States mainland, it lies in a threshold of change after being severely affected by the base pull out brought about by the great eruption of Mt. Pinatubo in 1991. It has risen from the ashes by putting itself back to the economic status that it once occupied and dream surpassing feats never before any city or province has ever accomplished."
Some copyediting needs to be done here, and the chamber of commerce last sentence should be deleted.
The History section jumps from 1829 to 1900 to the end of WWII. In there, especially because of the emphasis on the American presence, should be some notes on the early US military presence -- Fort Stotsenberg and then Clark Field, which was an important air base attacked by the Japanese in the opening hours of the US entry into the war. A lot of this is more properly put in the Clark article, of course, but because the US military presence there, at least a few sentences outlining the history of the symbiosis would be useful.
"During the American colonial period (1898-1946), a recorded number of more than 800,000 Americans were born in the Philippines."  Well, sure. the Phils was a US colony and then commonwealth, and Filipinos were US nationals. Any child born to at least one US parent in the Phils was a US citizen, and he/she could transmit that citizenship to his own children. But this has nothing much to do with Angeles City.
The next paragraph is jarring, with the US pullout from Clark banging into the infamous prostitution reference.
In Economy, I don't know what the reference to a "new road" means. If that's the long delayed new road to Subic Bay, it isn't finished yet. Tito john 05:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is inappropriate for admins to make significant changes to protected articles.  This article will only be protected until the disputes from April 19 are settled. After it is unprotected, you will be able to add teh section yourself. CMummert · talk 12:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other than the prostitution battle, some more work needs to be done 

message: Jack444 13:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The 2000 census is the latest. I just read an article in the Philippine News saying that the 2007 census will be underway in August. --Chris S. 01:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments on the references listed on the Angeles City page

message: i'm sorry if pointing out that your sources are unreliable and even contradict each other is nitpicking. i am not sure why you are coming to the conclusion that i am complaining you "dont use the entire article" when what i am actually saying is that your articles have many errors and therefore are not reliable sources of information. while you may feel Sabina Lauber is a significant source your citation doesnt say the unnamed person is actually her. all you have is the word of an anonymous person telling parliament their interpretation of a conference in manila. you then claim in error that this is the view of parliament when in fact the article does not even claim that. 
however, you are correct in one statement. none of the citations are from preda. preda, known for claiming such inaccuracies as AIDS was prevalent during the vietnam war, is just the source of their information and is quoted. as far as believing me, its up to you. your claims i have not provided any citations is not true. i have provided two citations. YOUR CITATIONS. your first citation says richard owns all the clubs and he is irish while your second citation says the clubs are 80% owned by australians. please tell me if your first citation is in error, your second citation is in error or if Ireland is now part of Australia. RodentofDeath 10:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reference nitpicking

message: ====="She maintains"=====
:The article is annotated "(Lauber, 1995)" in two places. The name of the Australian government's representative isn't strictly needed to prove anything since this is obviously a document from the Australian government, but since you are making an issue of it, here's a source:
:*
====="Richard"=====
:The "Richard" issue is as tangential as can be. There can be dozens of explanations for the discrepancy, so nothing is disproved by this. Variables include:
:*The Richard quotes — including "Richard owns all the clubs around here" — are taken from someone working at the bar, and are not presented in the article as authoritative.
:*Richard owns all the clubs "around here" — this is a casual delineation that may only apply to Fields Avenue, or some other undefined area.
:*Situations changing between the dates of the articles (separated by over a year)
:*Richard is not "Irish" in the article; you're misreading that. The Irishman is an unnamed co-owner.
:It's a red-herring, and it does not contradict the article text.
:You have provided no citations. Making bogus arguments about the multiple citations provided by others is not providing citations; if anything it is a smoke screen for an inability to source your claims. You really need to provide some extraordinary evidence that Angeles City is not "known as center of prostitution". You're not even close. / edgarde 11:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Red herrings

message: :The "Richard" issue is as tangential as can be. There can be dozens of explanations for the discrepancy, so nothing is disproved by this. Variables include:
:*The Richard quotes — including "Richard owns all the clubs around here" — are taken from someone working at the bar, and are not presented in the article as authoritative.
:*Richard owns all the clubs "around here" — this is a casual delineation that may only apply to Fields Avenue, or some other undefined area.
:*Situations changing between the dates of the articles (separated by over a year)
:*Richard is not "Irish" in the article; you're misreading that. The Irishman is an unnamed co-owner.
:It's a red-herring, and it does not contradict the article text.
:You have provided no citations. Making bogus arguments about the multiple citations provided by others is not providing citations; if anything it is a smoke screen for an inability to source your claims. You really need to provide some extraordinary evidence that Angeles City is not "known as center of prostitution". You're not even close. / edgarde 11:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Richard"

message: the problems with citation http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article44952.ece
"Mr Agnew runs a string of bars and clubs in Fields Avenue that cater to Western sex tourists seeking under-age girls." inaccurate. there are no underage girls in the clubs. if anyone is seeking underage girls this is not the place to find them. actually, many of the clubs cater to japanese and korean tourists.
"He was arrested last year and deported, but is back in the Philippines, operating the same businesses with apparent impunity." biased and misleading informtation. he was arrested and all charges were dropped when it was discovered that all the girls he employs are over 18 despite susan pineda's blackmail scheme and the dentist that was paid to say girls were underage. (yes, thats right. a dentist). the reason the business is running with impunity is that it is doing nothing illegal. 
"On a recent Saturday night, several of the bored-looking dancers in Nero's Forum nightclub looked no older than 12 or 13." blatantly inaccurate and intentionally misleading. there are no girls that look 12 or 13 since all the girls are over 18. no exceptions.
"It was a similar story at the Blue Nile Executive Club next door, where men scanned the dance floor before paying a "bar fine" - a fee for taking the girl of their choice away for sex." inaccurate. first, there is nothing called a "barfine". there is something called a "early work release" (EWR) but this is not for sex. girls and the bars make money by selling "ladies drinks" which are overpriced drinks the customer buys the girl for her to sit and talk to him. the girl gets a commission on the drinks and obviously the bar makes money too. an EWR is compensation to the bar and the girl for the income and commission they both lose by the girl not finishing her shift. the girl is free to go with the customer to do as they both wish. an EWR does not include payment for sex as that is prostitution and is illegal.
"Mr Agnew, 44, was nowhere to be seen, and staff at the Tropicana Hotel, which he owns, said he was in Thailand." inaccurate. a foreigner can not own a majority of any business in the philippines. it must be mostly owned by filipinos. the only exception to this is inside special economic zones and the tropicana (which doesnt exist anymore) was not inside an economic zone.
""Richard owns all the clubs around here," said the friendly floor manager at Nero's Forum." inaccurate. richard does not even own all the clubs he has a financial interest in... never mind all the other clubs. this quote is stated as fact.
"Mr Agnew's business partner, Steve Baker, from Cambridge, was equally forthcoming. "Richard and I run all these clubs with an Irish guy," he said. inaccurate. this article is now at the point where i doubt the quotes are even real. agnew and baker do not run all the clubs around anywhere.
"...after raiding one club, the Blue Nile, and discovering six girls aged between 11 and 13." inaccurate and intentionally misleading. the author of this article must know at this point that charges were dropped. all girls were proven to be over 18. oh, and the club that was raided was Misty's not Blue Nile.
"A police video of the raid, which followed a complaint that he was employing young girls, suggests he had an arrangement with local police. "I was promised there would be no more harassment," he protested repeatedly as he was led away." misleading but somewhat true. what he was actually talking about was that his clubs were raided on a previous night as part of the blackmail scheme by susan pineda. it was explained to the officers in charge of the raid (after nothing illegal was found to be happening) that it was part of a harassment and blackmail campaign. the officers promised to investigate his claims and said they would not act on further complaints by susan pineda as part of her blackmail attempts.
"He came back last Christmas on a 21-day single-entry visa and is still in the country, six months later." intentionally misleading. when entering the country visitors are given a 21 day visa. if you want to stay longer you apply for an extension. there is nothing wrong with being in the country 6 months later after being admitted on a 21 day visa.
"Mr Agnew, who was born in Larne, Northern Ireland" who was it that said he wasnt irish??? apparently this is one of the few things in this article that is accurate.
"prostitution is still the only industry in town." deliberately inaccurate. i wonder what all the other industries in town think about this statement.
"Many want young girls, as young as possible, preferably virgins - "cherry girls", as they are known in Angeles, where raping of these children is jocularly described as "cherry-popping"." grossly inaccurate. most customers... in fact almost all customers do NOT want girls as young as possible. they want pretty girls. most prefer NOT to go with cherry girls as evidenced by walking into a club near closing time. if there is a stunning girl on stage and not EWR already you can be guaranteed its a cherry girl. the second sentence about raping children is EXTREMELY inaccurate and shows deliberate intent to disgust the reader into seeing things from a certain point of view. there are no children working in the bars. there is no system for rape as implied here. if there is a rape, and unfortunately it happens in angeles just like any other town, it is strongly encouraged that the rape be reported to the police and the police are very willingly to apprehend the offender quickly. to give you an idea of how inaccurate this statement is i personally know a few girls working in the bars that are in their late 20s and still virgins. they will be until they are married.
"They used to dance naked, but the council cracked down. Now they have to be covered up. But trade is still good." grossly inaccurate. it is illegal to dance naked or show nudity in the bars. again, i think the writer is just making these quotes up. i cant see an owner saying "the trade is still good". maybe something like "business is good" but trade is inaccurate and frankly is something susan bryce would say but not a club owner.
"He confided to a fellow drinker: "If you ever want Viagra, just speak to Steve [Baker]." inaccurate and it accuses someone of illegal activity. viagra is not sold in the clubs. it is sold in pharmacies nad there are street vendors outside the clubs selling fake stuff.
"Although they have been alerted to Mr Agnew's return to Angeles, local police have declined to take action, saying they still have no evidence that he owns the clubs - 17 in total, according to one estimate." misleading. police declined to take action because there was nothing illegal happening. the 17 number is rather humorous though. perhaps this article is supposed to be a joke.
"Father Shay Cullen, an Irish priest who has been fighting child prostitution in the Philippines for two decades, said: "He [Mr Agnew] is into clubs and bars, and minors are found inside, so let a court of law decide."" inaccurate and misleading. the court decided that all there were no girls under 18 in the clubs and dropped the charges.
"At the Preda Foundation, the refuge that Father Shay runs near Angeles, Mr Agnew is a familiar face to one girl, Roxanne. Shown a photograph, she said: "That's Big Daddy," the term for a sex-club owner. She added: "We always had to smile nicely when he was around." Roxanne was 13 when she was rescued from the Cambodia Club, one of Mr Agnew's establishments." grossly inaccurate. preda is in olongapo, not near angeles. nobody calls club owners or managers "big daddy". they are commonly referred to as "daddy richard" or "daddy steve" just like they refer to female management as "mommy bebe" or "ate joan" (older sister joan). it is a term used to address someone with friendly respect. roxanne can not have been 13 when rescued from a club because all workers need to be over 18 to be employed there. furthermore, richard is accused of running a legally established bar, not a sex club.
"There are 100,000 child prostitutes in the Philippines, according to the UN children's agency, Unicef. In Angeles, they can be hired for 1,000 pesos (£10) a night. The girls receive half that sum." misleading. there are no children in the clubs. the EWR was formerly 1000p. its more now but i digress. you cant hire a child for a night that isnt there.
"The Philippines has stiff child protection laws, but they are only patchily enforced. Police and prosecutors are bought off, and the girls frequently lie about their age and hold false papers." inaccurate. the laws are strictly enforced. the girls need to verify their age and identity with the NBI before they are issued licenses to work. yes, they do lie about their age. the girls that are 25 tell the customers they are 21. the girls that are 18 tell the customers they are 21.
but the best evidence that this is an unreliable source is that while this article in The Independent newspaper claims angeles is the centre of the philippine sex industry... the Irish version of the paper claims the Olongapo is the centre of the philippine sex industry!! http://www.independent.ie/national-news/priest-rejects-child-sex-case-mans-kidnap-claim-444407.html—The preceding comment is by RodentofDeath (talk • contribs) : Please sign your posts!
:Great. Can you cite sources for your critiques?  Without them, most of your comments in this section are original research. Also, many of your unsourced assertions here, including that there are no child prostitutes in Angeles City, are contrary to the sources already provided in this article. / edgarde 23:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  my assertion is that there are no child prostitutes in the clubs which is what this citation is claiming. the sources provided prove that authorities do check for underage girls and make arrests when appropriate. correct me if i wrong but it seems that there has been about 2 incidents of arrest and convictions in the past 15 years. as far as sources for my critiques please see Wikipedia:Verifiability on where the burden of proof lies. you are using this article as a citation for "This is the centre of the Philippines sex industry" but i think it is clear that this citation has many errors and distortions in it. that angeles is "This is the centre of the Philippines sex industry" is one of those distortions. RodentofDeath 13:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: good references, bad references 1