Talk:Helots

message: Shouldn't this article be renamed Helots? The plural in this sort of articles appears to be much more common.--Aldux 10:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: name

message: There are many cases in the main body of the article where the past/present tense does not agree (or switches back and forth). If I get around to it, i'll fix it myself, but i've got a lot of work. just thought I'd bring it to someone's attention. --Storkk 16:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: verb agreement

message: Are there any studies that relate the Helots to Haplogroup E3b (Y-DNA)? --Kupirijo 05:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not possible to isolate Helot descedents in the population today, so unless it is possible to do chromosomal analysis on 2,500 year old human remains, AND the remains of an unquestionable Helot could be identified, I don't this analysis is even possible. Argos'Dad 13:33, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Haplogroup E3b 

message: (I am not knowledgable about this at all so i would be out of place editing this, but somehow this paragraph really niggles me, it gives the impression of a helot population somehow as a concious group deciding to divide naturally like some sort of bacteria.  It also gives the impression that chattel populations decided to grow by comerce or war????)
Given that— unlike chattel slave populations— the helot population could not grow by means of purchase or capture in war, it had to rely on natural growth. Helots were encouraged by the Spartans to impose eugenics similar to that which they practiced themselves. Thus, according to the Greek beliefs of the period, not only genetic but also acquired characteristics were passed along to successive generations. During the crypteia, the strongest and fittest helots were the primary targets of the kryptes; to select soft targets would be a sign of weakness.
was acutally me hadnt signed in sorry......JP—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.27.237.153 (talk)  
===I agree===
That paragraph really annoyed me too. Could somebody re-word it?
TobiTo Kakshi 19:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Paragraph that makes no sense to me -- 

message: That paragraph really annoyed me too. Could somebody re-word it?
TobiTo Kakshi 19:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: I agree

message: Concerning this edit:
According to Thucydides (I, 101, 2), the Helots and the Perioeci of Thouria and Aithaia took advantage of the earthquake to revolt and establish a position on Ithome. He adds that most of the rebels were of Messenian ancestry; confirming the appeal of Ithome as a historical place of Messenian resistance, and focuses attention on the Perioeci of Thouria, a city on the Messianian coast. Conversely, we can deduce that a minority of the Helots were Laconian;
Who is deducing this? Who's we? My sources say that there were two types of Spartan Helots: Laconian and Messinian, each of which resided in the respective regions. It's absurd to assume that there were almost no Laconian Helots because they didn't revolt. They were obviously fewer but that's not how we derive it. The Laconian Helots didn't revolt because they were loyal to the Spartan state, being the ancestors of the Mycenaean pre-Dorian Spartans themselves. In fact there's a huge difference between those two types of Helots (Laconian and Messinian), and it does deserve a mention. Miskin (talk) 22:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Some remarks

message: Is this page POV? I was reading about helots in Paola Cavalieri's article, here is what she says:
... Sparta's helots are the best-known example. Both the origins and the details of the status of the helots are somewhat obscure and still under discussion, but helots appear to have been the class of producers on the exploitation of whom the highly hierarchical Spartan society was based. The helots were employed mainly in agriculture, and so normally lived apart from the ruling group and were allowed to have a family and some sort of community life. Their situation, however, wasn't much better than that of chattel slaves. (It is enough to note that their subjection was annually reaffirmed through ritual activities that differed from modern sport hunting mainly in the fact that the prey was human.[5])
Because the helots lived together, they were more dangerous to their masters, and many helot rebellions shook Spartan society. In 369 BC, however, during a war between the Spartans and the Thebans, something exceptional happened: after defeating the Spartans at Leuctra, Epaminondas, leader of the Theban forces, manumitted en bloc the helots of Messenia. This act allowed the rebirth of a whole people, with the ready return of its diaspora from all over the Greek Mediterranean; it also had the effect of transforming the ancient social structure on which Sparta had been based. ...
[5] On this institution, called 'krypteia', see the essay by Pierre Vidal-Naquet, 'Le chasseur noir et 1'origine de 1'ephebie athenienne', in P. Vidal-Naquet, Le chasseur noir: Formes de pens.ee et formes de societe dans le mond grec (Librairie Francois Maspero, Paris, 1981).
This gives me a bit different view than this page. NikNovi (talk) 17:13, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi! Can you be more precise concerning the elements that seem NPOV to you? I'm the author of the French article from which this article was translated. Clearly, it still need works, but I tried to write a well-balanced paper. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 17:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not NPOV? 

message: I reverted LuxNevada's content deletion. The offending passage is not original research; it draws on Ducat's and Lévy's works. Yet it needs precise references, which is why I added . The original French article was written in 2005, when footnotes were not used. I am now in holidays and do not have my books with me. I will add references as soon as I am back. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 12:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Putting to death fat Helots 

message: I undid Kemkem's edition (unfree poulation -> slaved population) for the following reasons. As explained in the rest of the introduction, the precise status of Helots is difficult to evaluate. We definitely know there weren't free, but there is a difference between their status and that of chattel slaves. In some ways, they can be seen as akin to medieval serfs (see Talk:Slavery_in_ancient_Greece#Serfs). Please refer to unfree labour for other kinds of unfree work which aren't slavery: labour camps, bonded labour, etc. The word is routinely used by historians, see for instance Cartledge in Spartan Reflections about Helots. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 20:05, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unfree v slaved 

message: This phrase in the lede does not make a lot of sense in standard English. I suspect it should be "essentially slaves", but I can't find the cited reference. Perhaps an editor who collects books on oratory could check this. Paulmlieberman (talk) 17:14, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It might need a bit more of a rewrite than that. The Critias fragment and Plutarch passage both speak to the fact that in Sparta a slave was more of a slave than slaves anywhere else were. I think the person who added that text was construing the word "especially" () with "slaves" when it more properly should be taken with the entire statement. That is, something like: In Sparta "especially" or, rather, "in the highest degree" () were slaves slaves and free men free.  davidiad { t } 23:52, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This article was originally translated from French. From what I remember, the French original translation was "spécialement esclaves”, which sounds weird in French too. Anyway, I don't have an English translation Libanios' passage, but A. Powell provides a paraphrase in Classical Sparta: The Techniques Behind Her Success (p.31): "Critias' remark that at Sparta the free men were the most free, and the slaves the most enslaved." Jastrow (Λέγετε) 10:48, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's probably still awkward, but it's early here and I'm muddleheaded and lazy: I've changed the quote to "slaves to the utmost". Please feel free to better present/integrate this.  davidiad { t } 11:45, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:   "especially slaves"? 

message: This part of the article may be the worst written Wikipedia text I have ever read. It's not objective and has no regard for grammar at all. It may be a translation problem, but whatever it is, AHHHHHH!
Kingsocarso (talk) 03:34, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Helot Revolts 

message: Hi, I'm not a regular Wikipedian so I don't know enough of the system to fix it myself, but I'd like to point out that the current "Treatment by Spartans" section looks like Spartan apologetics. It cites no sources and is unencyclopedic in tone. I know enough to put a "multiple issues" tag on there so hopefully this can get resolved by people that know more. 143.167.213.119 (talk) 01:45, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Treatment by Spartans" is clearly not NPOV 

message: The "treatment by Spartans" section needs significant improvement. I do not know enough about the realities of Helot life in Spartan society to take issue with any specific claims made this section, but the way it is written looks more like an OP-ED than an encyclopedic work. In particular I refer to the passage beginning "So why the revolts?".
JustOneOfThosePeople (talk) 05:10, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is an encyclopedia, not a human interest piece 

message: The article does not summarise the actual history of the system well enough. An actual "history" section with start and end dates for the system with major revolts and events would be better than the current disjointed article. Viciouspiggy (talk) 08:33, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: Is there any particular reason why this important emancipation of Helots isn't mentioned in the article? In fact, the name Epaminondas doesn't even appear in the article. 84.212.10.169 (talk) 02:13, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Epaminondas and the liberation of Helots