Talk:Southern Ivy

message: Did the author of this article just make up this term? If so, it should be deleted.
Response: It's a colloquial term, but it's not BS. I've heard this phrase for the past 20 years or so. Of course, I grew up in the South. To delete it would smack of anti-regional bias. - Vandy
: I disagree. I grew up (still am) in the Midwest and have heard the term "Midwest Ivies" thrown around, but that doesn't mean it should be a Wikipedia article. Like Southern Ivies, it is undefined and entirely subjective. Who's to say if Davidson is a Southern Ivy, or if Wheaton is a Midwest Ivy? By contrast, other similar terms like "Public Ivy" and "Jesuit Ivy" are historically documented and, by definition, refer to specific schools. In my opinion, this article should be deleted since it is inherently a point of view. 129.105.35.130 17:31, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  BS? 

message: A previous articel by this name was disccused at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Southern Ivy League and the consensus was to delete. The main concerns raised were lack of sources. When the matter was dissuced on Deletion review, the creator said "I have referenced and sourced the article, removed POV speculation, and recreated. Since this addresses the vast majority of the AfD claims (Leaving only "neologism," which I take to be a variation of "I've never heard of it so it must not be notable" in this case, since the term obviously exists), I assume this will not be an issue. Phil Sandifer 17:28, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  AfD 

message: If humanly possible, I would like this article to say what it needs to say without using that word "prestigious." It is a word that is far more subjective even than notable. Other encyclopedias, as far as I know do not use it. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:55, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Prestigious" 

message: So what NCAA conference do these schools play in? The Ivy League is, nowadays, I-AA. Septentrionalis 06:42, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NCAA ranking

message: Snowspinner, I wasn't the anon who removed most of that paragraph. I don't agree with its removal, and I agree with its reversion.
However... I most emphatically do not agree with your edit comment.
This article does not purport to be a "list of academically high-ranking Southern colleges." Any such list would be promptly voted for deletion, as "list of notable U.S. colleges" was well over a year ago. 
It purports to be about something called "Southern Ivies."
If U. S. News and World Report had a category called "Southern Ivies," or if they had an editorial remark in which they opined that the top schools in their regional list for their South region might be called the "Southern Ivies," or if they defined some set of criteria that they said represented a "Southern Ivy," then U. S. News and World Report would be a good source, and good defining authority for "what is a Southern Ivy."
What we have now is someone's opinion that "Southern Ivies" ought to mean "Southern schools ranked in the top fifty by U. S. News and World Report." If you asked someone who uses the phrase "Southern Ivies" what it means, do you think that is how they would define it? Dpbsmith (talk) 23:31, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I was about to remove the bit about US News as being irrelevant, but I see there's already been discussion on it.  I have the same concerns given above, though.  As it stands right now, this seems to be a sneaky way for the article to imply that these schools are "Southern Ivies".  We should not be using Wikipedia to push our own desired usages of terms, we should be reporting on what's already established.  Anyone else think this bit should be removed?  Friday (talk) 15:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: See if you can find a way to wordsmith it. I agree that we don't want to adjudicate a meaning for the phrase "Southern Ivies," we don't want to pronounce which Southern schools are "best," and we want to give too much credence to U. S. News and World Report. But I do think something should preserved regarding how the Southern Ivies actually compare with the schools of the Ivy League. Perhaps replace the whole paragraph with something like: "In U. S. New and World Report rankings, if Duke were in the Ivy League it would rank fifth out of nine." Leave it to the reader to research where Rice, Emory, and Vanderbilt stand, and whether they think a ranking of 15 (Brown) versus 17, 18, and 20 actually means anything or not. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:29, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that the term has no official meaning, the next most sensible thing to do is to list what schools people talk about when they talk about "good schools in the South," which is, after all, what the term means. Phil Sandifer 00:38, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "By what standard is a claim sourced to US News and World Report unsourced?"

message: This article probably should not be speedied, because the stated reason does not apply.
The stated reason is that "This page was voted for deletion on November 6th: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Southern_Ivy_League." 
However, this article is not Southern Ivy League, which, as of November 6th, looked like this.  
This article is Southern Ivies. 
And, guess what: on November 14th, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Southern Ivies was closed with "the result of the debate was keep (no consensus)." 
Of course I'm ego-involved. I wouldn't be sorry to see this article go, but since it looked as if that wasn't going to happen I'm one of the people who tried to bash it into more neutral and citation-supported shape.
Maybe it should be renominated for AfD. 
(If it does get speedied, I will not be the one to list it for deletion review though). Dpbsmith (talk) 21:15, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I won't nominate it for AfD, but if it is nominated for AfD I will vote to delete it. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Never mind, it's been speedied. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:25, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Probably should not be speedied 

message: This articel was discussed (for the second time) on Wikipedia:Deletion review starting on 8 December 2005. Please examine the history for this discussion before consiering a speedy delete for this article. DES (talk) 20:52, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Permalink to the review discussion, closed as a notification-only listing. Wbm1058 (talk) 20:28, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion Review 

message: Should this be under Category:Lists of universities and colleges (like Ivy League) or Category:Colleges and universities? Enochlau 22:39, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categorisation 

message: There's nothing on this page of substance that isn't summarize more concisely and in context at Ivy League. JDoorjam 00:49, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The article it redirected to is EXACTLY about this topic: not only the Ivy League, but colloquialisms that use "_____ Ivy League". "Southern Ivies" isn't a real thing, just like "Midwest Ivies." JDoorjam 12:56, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Vandy, redirecting an article is not deleting it. See my further comments at User_talk:JDoorjam. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:12, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

text: P.S. This article has always been marginal. It is almost pure academic boosterism and/or regional boosterism. "Southern Ivies" just means good Southern school. There's no particular need for an encyclopedia article about them. Nobody ought to give a flying fig whether or not Emory is better than Brown. And nobody who knows "Ivy" can loosely mean any academically superior, socially prestigious school needs to have a special article to explain that a Southern Ivy is an "Ivy" that happens to be in the South. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:24, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect 

message: I believe, but don't have a specific citation at hand to back me up, that among actual Ivy League schools, Princeton was the traditional preferred choice of young Southern gentlemen; specifically, Princeton was preferred over Harvard. I don't know why. I don't think I'm basing this on a sample size of one (F. Scott Fitzgerald). 
:[I'm not sure what you are talking about. I think F. Scott Fitzgerald was from Minnesota or somewhere in the midwest]  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.82.89 (talk • contribs) 
::You're right. F. Scott Fitzgerald is irrelevant. I still think I'm correct about the Southern elite preferring Princeton over Harvard. Dpbsmith (talk) 12:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article dedicates the entire first section to the Princetonification of Southern mascots.  (Sadly, the article goes on to explain, Denison University is not the Big Red out of any sort of homage to Cornell.) It doesn't prove your hunch, but seems to support it. JDoorjam     Talk 03:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tulane; and, Princeton of the South vs. Harvard of the South 

message: User:LaszloWalrus recently added:
:Duke is the only "Southern Ivy" ever to be ranked first by U.S. News and World Report, or indeed, ever to make the top ten.
I looked for this on the Duke University website and couldn't find it. I think Duke's website apparently not mention it is sufficiently odd that I'm removing the statement pending User:LaszloWalrus's providing a verifiable source citation. Duke currently ranks fifth. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Duke ranked first by U. S. News?

message: Public Ivies recently got moved to Public Ivy.  Should this page follow suit? JDoorjam     Talk 05:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I certainly don't care. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move to [[Southern Ivy]]? 

message: *students at the University of Mississippi(Ole Miss) refer to their school as "the Harvard of the South" and to Harvard as "the Ole Miss of the North."
Nice. Very likely true. Needs a source citation. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:32, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced item

message: I'm removing this list, as it is obviously just going to attract boosterish editions. There's no objective way to decide whether the cutoff should be the top ten, top 20, top 50, top 100, top 500, top 20,000. It has no particular connection to "Southern Ivies." Nobody has cited a source that says the phrase "Southern Ivies" means "Southern school ranking in the top 100 in the U. S. News Report rankings." Certainly, "Ivy League" does not mean "all the Northeastern schools that rank in the top 100 in the U. S. News and World Report rankings." I am certain that the notion of "Southern Ivy" is not based solely on academic merit, but also includes a measure of social status. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:02, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why are Hopkins and Georgetown omitted?  They are south of the Mason-Dixon Line.  Not to mention several liberal-arts colleges like Davidson and Washington and Lee.  And if you're going to include Rice from Texas, why not UT-Austin?  Also missing are Georgia Tech, Clemson, Georgia, Virginia Tech, etc etc.  I updated the rankings supplied and corrected the source link. ConradArchguy (talk) 13:17, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irrelevant list of Southern schools in the U. S. News top 100 

message: Southern schools ranking within the top 100 nationally by USNews (ordered by score, US overall rank in parenthesis):
*Duke University (7)
*Vanderbilt University (17)
*Rice University (18)
*Emory University (20)
*University of Virginia(*) (T23)
*Wake Forest University (T23)
*University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill(*) (30)
*College of William and Mary(*) (32)
*Tulane University (52)
*Southern Methodist University (60)
(*) = public university
: Why are Hopkins and Georgetown omitted?  They are south of the Mason-Dixon Line.  Not to mention several liberal-arts colleges like Davidson and Washington and Lee.  And if you're going to include Rice from Texas, why not UT-Austin?  Also missing are Georgia Tech, Clemson, Georgia, Virginia Tech, etc etc.  I updated the rankings supplied and corrected the source link. ConradArchguy (talk) 13:17, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Colleges

message: I'm moving this here, because there's no evidence that Newsweek's list has gotten any traction or widespread use. It was just some magazine's idea for an article. I've yet to see any references to these "new Ivies" anywhere else. (And It's a silly list. Who mentions Emory (big, conservative-ish Southern university), Reed (small Oregon liberal-arts college) and Olin College of Engineering? Can anybody even imagine applying to all three of those? For that matter, how can anyone call Emory (founded 1836) as "New?") Dpbsmith (talk) 15:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While Rice, Vanderbilt, and Emory were included in Newsweek Magazine's List of "25 New Ivies". 
-- Southern Ivy as defined by the article represents a school that is "comparable to the Ivy League in some form". The list of southern schools on Newsweek's list seems to fit in with that definition. According to the admissions consultants who wrote the article, more competition to Ivy League schools has created the "Ivies" to expand to other schools of high academic quality. If the connotation has expanded to include southern schools (Rice, Emory, Vandy) it seems reasonable that it is included in the article. The article recieve widespread spread press (not to mention Newsweek is a major magazine) and the authors have appeared on many televison shows to talk about their article including the Today Show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5oXdj-TTPg.
RedBull11 18:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Newsweek's "New Ivies"

message: Why is "southern ivy" displayed on the tulane page, yet tulane is not listed as a southern ivy school?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.151.156.98 (talk) 01:54, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Tulane isn't in the first eight listed according to the US News webpage, which is easily verified.  Using the same source, it's 12th.  That doesn't stop people from editing the Tulane topic, supplying their opinions in lieu of facts.  A quick read of the Tulane topic shows more than that which is nonfactual. Tedickey (talk) 20:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Tulane

message: ...find a reliable, published source that uses the phrase "Southern Ivy" to describe Tulane and add it together with the source. 
For example, if Tulane's own website uses the phrase,  you can say "Tulane calls itself a Southern Ivy."
That's how to do it, and get it to stick.
Don't try to sail too close to the wind on what constitutes a "reliable source." The main thing here is that it needs to be something verifiable: anyone should be able to check that the source says what you say it says. Print media... a book... is best. A college newspaper will probably do, particularly if it's available online.
You can't just say Tulane is a "Southern Ivy." You have to show that something reasonable, like a college guidebook, calls it that. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: If you want to add Tulane...

message: I removed the US news ranking list due to it lacking relevance.  The Ivy League is not defined as the top 8 schools ranked by US news, nor are “public ivies” defined as the top 8 or 30 public schools.  I believe this term has been around well before US news even started ranking schools.  Truth be told, there is not objective way to list the highest ranked schools in the south without causing arguments.  I swear it seems like that everyone who picks up an issue of US news thinks they are suddenly an expert on higher education. Bvjrm (talk) 02:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  US news as a reference 

message: I've removed the section entitled "Schools associated." There's not a reference in the bunch. It's pure opinion on the part of Wikipedia editors. 
If people want to include names of specific schools, they have to be referenced. That is, it basically has to be a "list of schools which have been called 'Southern Ivies.'" In each case, the specific source for the name has to be cited. Even if it's the school's admission's department, OK, but it has to be a reference to a place where someone has said "XYZ University is a Southern Ivy." If U. S. News and World Report has said in so many words "XYZ University is a Southern Ivy" or has published a "list of Southern Ivies" that would be a source, but a ranking number is irrelevant.
The excised list is:
* College of William and Mary
* Duke University
* Emory University
* University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
* Rice University
* Southern Methodist University
* Tulane University
* Wake Forest University
* Vanderbilt University
* University of Virginia
Dpbsmith (talk) 22:56, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Concur with removal...I had already tagged it as unreferenced/boosterism/etc in the article prior to its removal. DMacks (talk) 18:50, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  There should not be an unreferenced list of "associated" schools 

message: I'm not sure why this referenced material was removed. I think it's relevant but won't put it back myself:
"Harvard of the South" is also a commonly used colloquialism, and one humorous essay  asserts that "there are two dozen Harvards of the South distributed among the states that seceded to form the Confederacy. Of those eleven states, only Alabama does not claim to have a single HotS ['Harvard of the South']." Usually universities do not accord themselves that accolade, but "UF administrators have designated the school the 'Harvard of the South,'" according to the University of Florida's student newspaper.
Individual Southern schools have been compared to individual members of the Ivy League as well.  Various Southern schools have sometimes been called the "Princeton of the South." (Princeton University was traditionally the preferred choice of the Southern upper class.)  p. 247: "The College of New Jersey at Princeton has long and justly maintained a high reputation, and numbers among its alumni many of the most eminent men of the Union, especially in the Southern States." This appellation has been applied at some point or another to Sewanee, Davidson College, Samford, Rice, Duke and UNC. Robert Franklin Durden (1998) says that in the 1890s, the Biddle Memorial Institute (now Johnson C. Smith University) considered itself to be the "Colored Princeton of the South."Durden, Robert Franklin (1998): Lasting Legacy to the Carolinas, Duke University Press, , p. 121  
Dpbsmith (talk) 23:00, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: "Harvard of the South," etc.