Talk:Kobold

message: I see that the article isn't organized well, but I'm not exactly certain where it is contradictory. Other than the fact that Kobolds have evolved to mean different things over time.
As I see it, in brief:
1. Kobold comes from German, and loosely translates as Goblin.
2. Kobolds primarily seem to fill the class of house spirit such as Domovoi in Slavic Folklore. They can be mischevious, or helpful, depending on how they are treated. They also seem to often be the spirit of a child killed in or near the house.
3. Now having been established as a mischevious goblin like creature, Miner's name the metal Cobalt after them, believing that silver has been replaced by "Kobolds" with the more useless metal.
4. Popular fantasy, mostly influenced by DnD, has diverged from the original meaning of Kobold. Different versions of DnD have described them differently. The most recent version has clearly described them as small reptilian humanoids. However, earlier versions have also called them Dog-like, and many people have come to think of them as such. Thus, their appearance in the Suikoden game as a dog race.
5. Neil Gaimen uses them in American Gods in a way that is closer to their original house spirit meaning. However, like much in that book, he twists the meaning. The name seems obviously derived from Heinzelmännchen, but instead of being the spirit of a dead child, it is a spirit that kills children. But then performs it's protective spirit role for the whole town. I can't seem to find any reference to the tribal protective spirit nature of Kobolds, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Or anything about the stabbing and wrapping a child.
Ok, so now I know more than I ever expected to about Kobolds. I'm not sure if I'm the one to write the article however...
Best sources I can find is:
Kobold at Everything2
Kobold from American Heritage Dictionary
--Deinol 23:15, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
:OK. Here's a draft rewrite. I've deleted the "kobold named after cobalt" theory - kobolds predate the (1730s) discovery of cobalt - as well as the tribal god bit. I can't find it anywhere either, but it can be reinstated if anyone can provide a reliable source. User:Raygirvan:Raygirvan May 06 2005
::I think what Deinol is saying is that Cobalt is named after Kobolds, not the other way around. Applejuicefool (talk) 19:23, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kobolds in a nutshell 

message: The section referring to "Small gods" seems to come -completely- out of the blue, and is therefore rather confusing, and certainly sounds completely unsupported.  Is this in referrence to Neil Gaiman's book, or folklore of some regional spiritualism/superstition, or is it simply baseless?
Section removed pending some kind of referrence/citation or having it make sense.  Here it is:
As far as small gods go, a Kobold is one of the more quaintly created. A kobold is usually the remains of a Teuton/Germanic tribal good-luck-god. These gods were made by raising an infant in an underground hut for five years, never letting it see the sun. Then, on its fifth birthday, it would be dragged up at night, and before the entire tribe be pierced by two blades -- one of bronze, the other of steel. The body would then by held over the flames until dry and brown; the end result would be a small dry fetish which would be carried around and worshipped. When the creature and container were finally destroyed and forgotten, the remains of the god would become a Kobold or a Brownie. They are usually bitter and malicious, a product of their creation and abandonment. 
Tchalvak 17:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Small Gods Section? 

message: I quote from a note in Herbert Hoover's translation of De Re Metallica, in which Hoover quotes from another of Agricola's works, De Animantibus Subterraneis: "Then there are the gentle kind which the Germans as well as the Greeks call cobalos, because they mimic men." Agricola goes on to describe creatures identical to knockers. If we accept this derivation, presumably the term was extended from the (benevolent) knockers to include malicious mine goblins, from whence we get kobolds, cobalt, and so forth. Choess 05:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: I propose a merger of the three pages:
#Kobold
#Kobolds in gaming
#Kobold (Dungeons & Dragons)
There's no reason to have three pages covering the same topic. It might be better to have one main article (this one), which branches off into the others if(/as/when) required. At this point, it makes the whole thing a good bit messy. xC | ☎  18:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Partial Support.  I say merge the gaming pages, (maybe into Kobold (RPG)?) but leave the folklore seperate; disambig at the top.  --mordicai. 15:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was leaning towards the same thing. I support Mordicai's suggestion.xC | ☎  06:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Partial Support.  As per mordicai.. The Kobold article is about a German spirit, entitely unrelated to the other two. Robert Brockway 06:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I roll a "1" on support Feh, this seems to be a pointless exercise in merger. I can go along with Mordicai. I would argue there is no operational impact. Kobolds in DnD 3.5 are reptilian, while kobolds in WoW and DnD 2.0 are rodent-like. Dominick (TALK) 14:36, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Oppose, as these articles are unusual candidates for merger (even the two on gaming): most mergers are a good idea on practical grounds (they cover overlapping or small amounts of information, neither of which is really true for these three articles). The real question is whether the data is sufficiently notable. Also, a similar proposal seems to exist on this talk page in the section above. How is this proposal very different from that one? (Excluding the argument from frivolity, mythological Kobolds have more in common with the D&D version than that species does with many of the other gaming variants, so we could equally argue for a merger of the D&D & mythological articles on grounds of similarity). Therefore, I suggest a merger of the merger suggestions.  --Wragge 18:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger 

message: I recently rewrote the lead to this article to match the information I found in my studies and which I used to write the article body. In rewriting the lead, I removed some facts that my sources did not back up. If anyone can provide references for this material, it probably belongs somewhere in the article. Here are the facts that were removed:
* The name comes from "Kobe" = house, hut and the word "hold" = comely, good (Paul Hermann, "Deutsche Mythologie") and is often translated in English as goblin. [While there is a reference to Hermann here, there is no specific edition or page number indicated. Can someone consult Hermann and provide one?]
*  Kobold is often translated in English as goblin.
* The most common version is the Heinzelmännchen. [My sources simply say that these are a specific case of domestic kobolds and are not a type per se, and the domestic kobold is the most common type, not the specific example of that type, the Heinzelmännchen.]
*  Kobold is often used in German to translate the word leprechaun, a type of Irish fairy goblin.
* I removed the note about Kobold being a German surname as irrelevant.
Thanks for any help! — Dulcem (talk) 02:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead facts 

message: OK, I'll jot some notes here: Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the notes so far. I'll try to kill some red links too. Just wrote kobalos, for example. — Dulcem (talk) 01:09, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I haven't had much spare time. I have another source with some stuff to add as well. looking good though...Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peer Review 

message: I was going to add this but not sure where to put it or how it disagrees/agrees with what you have:
Book: 
::Kolbolds were originally held to be tree spirits, and later cut into and carved figures in a fashion thought so that the kobold remained in the carving; this also happened with Kaboutermannikins. (p. 135)
::Kobolds are known as Galgenmännlein in southern Germany, and in the rest of Germany as Oaraunle, Glucksmännchen, Allerünken, or Alraune. The Galgenmännlein, Oaraunle and  Alraune were all carved from mandrake roots. The elves who lived inside could take the form of cats, children or worms. (p. 136)
::The Kobolde were originally 1-2 foot high carved wooden figurines, made from mandrake roots or boxwood and kept in glass or wooden containers. They had green clothing and large mouths. The Monoloke was one example made from white wax, with a blue shirt and black velvet vest. (p. 136)
::Mentions Kobolds as occurring in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Denmark and Sweden. (p. 137)
Useful? Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:57, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, yeah; most of that material should go into the article. Do you still have access to the book? Could you give specific page numbers for each bit so I can make full footnotes? The only bit I'm suspicious about is the part about kobolds in other countries. I think that those countries mostly have their own types of sprites, called by other names (though I could be wrong). Thanks! — Dulcem (talk) 12:45, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Mostly all intergrated. I'm still hesitant about the Austria . . . Sweden bit. I can buy that kobolds occur in German-speaking Austria and Switzerland, but Denmark has its own critter (the nisse), and Sweden has its tomte. Authors have a bad habit sometimes of lumping several beings together under the local name, like the way goblin and elf are often used to describe non-English spirits. — Dulcem (talk) 05:32, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book with material 

message: I wonder if some german folk museums have some of these wooden kobolde carvings in them. Not easy for me to get there given I am in Australia...Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't there a page somewhere for requested pictures? I wonder if any of our users in Germany might be able to snap one (assuming the carvings are on display somewhere). — Dulcem (talk) 13:03, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I left a note under yours on WP Germany..but have no idea if anyone can find one...Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:23, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I have also put up a request at Commons Picture requests. It's a longshot, but worth a shot. — Dulcem (talk) 05:00, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Ditto Wikipedia:Requested pictures/History. — Dulcem (talk) 05:07, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image idea 

message: As discussed at Talk:Hödekin, it appears that the material from Arrowsmith's book on the Hutchen is more appropriate for the kobold article. Here are the bits in question:
:Described as industrious and loyal, this being works for food once a week and on holidays, in return performing numerous household tasks,Compare the English Puck. foretelling the future and giving advice and magical gifts. The Hödekin may be forced to leave a household if given clothing, repeatedly insulted, rushed in his work, or if the house is burnt down or a wagon wheel is left in front of it. These actions will anger the house-elf as well, and it will depart, cursing the household. The Hödekin are said to be 0.3-1 m (1-3 ft) tall, with red hair and beard, and clad in red or green clothing and a red hat. Occasionally blind, they are shape-shifters able to transform into children, cats, bats, snakes or roosters.Arrowsmith 249-52
To be properly integrated into the article, this paragraph will need to be broken up. Casliber, do you still have the book in question? Could you indicate where the various pieces of info come from? In other words, what comes from p. 249, what from 250, 251, and 252? Thanks for your help with all this. — Dulcem (talk) 01:46, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, merged. — Dulcem (talk) 11:50, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Material moved from [[Hödekin]] 

message: Three of the images in this article (the ones from The Fairies and the Christmas Child) are up for deletion on Commons. They are clearly PD in the US, but the argument is that they are not PD in the UK, where they were created. Anyone with a Commons account can weigh in here. — Dulcem (talk) 11:28, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: I'm not sure about the book, but in the film adaptation of Communion, Whitley's friend European friend Alex mentions kobolds after Whitley tells of seeing/hallucinating things while on vacation in the New England wilderness. Should this be mentioned in the media section? --76.115.67.114 (talk) 07:35, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Communion (film)|Communion]] in the media section?

message: I really wonder about the wording in this section becasue the current state of research in German ethnology is that actually no evidence for survival of pagan beliefs in Chistianity exists. All former evidence are either based on pure linguistic research working with suspected but not provable prehistoric sources of words or are based in the so-called mythologic school of folklore which did not work with evidence but purely on possibility. The tenor is, that there is no possible way of tracing any belief or custom further back than medieval times - or Roman times in special cases - but never to pre-christian Germanic times since there is no written evidence of or about Germanic religious practices. 
Especially important on this topic is Hans Mosers work, but most other ethnologists after WWII wrote something about this subject. -- 188.195.34.163 (talk) 15:52, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: While I haven't taken a look at this article for some time, I can say that t the above comment is total nonsense from both an academic and popular cultural point of view. There is no such "current state of research", there never was, and it would seem to me that the author of the above comment hasn't even dipped their toe into the huge body of research that exists on this topic. From the runic corpus to skaldic poetry to matronae and Germania to modern folklore, there's no shortage of material to analyze on the subject of Germanic paganism and its echoes and influence into the modern era. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:10, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evidence for survival of Pagan Beliefs? 

message: To my knowledge as having grown up with German Children's books, Heinzelmann is a generic term, not an individual name. I've never come across a single elf called Heinzelmann in any book. They are not exactly kobolds, but benevolent dwarfs who help in the house, while a kobold is mischievous. The name Heinz-el-mann seems to be a taboo term, Heinz being a nickname for Henry, -el- a diminuitive, and Mann = man, so it means “Lil' Henry man”. 
Quite famous in Germany is the ballad of the Lil' Henry men of Cologne (Die Heinzelmännchen von Köln), put into verse by August Kopisch. The story goes that nobody used to work in Cologne because the lil' Henry men did all the work at night. But the tailor's wife wanted to see them. So she spread peas on the staircase and hid herself there. When the lil' Henry men slipped and fell, the tailor's wife laughed at them. This made the Henry men so angry that they left the city, and the people had to work themselves.
So while a Kobold is held responsible if you have lost something in the house, or if you keep stumbling somewhere, or if your cat is scared for no good reason, a Heinzelmann is quite the same as the nisses and tomtes of Scandinavia, except that they have nothing to do with Christmas. --Curryfranke (talk) 10:21, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Heinzelmann is something else 

message: How can something be derived from German folklore AFTER its spread through Europe?It's quite poorly written, but I'll leave the correction to someone familiar with the facts, which I am not. Just English. 67.240.185.14 (talk) 10:55, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  First paragraph