Talk:Flag of Tibet

message: "The Tibetan national flag is intimately connected with the authentic history and royal lineages of Tibet which are thousands of years old. Furthermore, in the Tibetan Royal year 820 or in the seventh century of the Christian era, at the time of the Tibetan religious King Song-Tsen Gamp the Great extensive land of Tibet was divided into large and small districts known as "gö-kyi tong-de" and "yung-g'i mi-de". From these large and small districts, an army of 2,860,000 men was chosen and stationed along the borders of Tibet, and the subjects thus lived in safety. The bravery and heroism of the Tibetan people at that time in conquering and ruling even the adjacent empire of China is well-known in world history.
"At that time, it is recorded that the regiment of Yö-ru tö had a military flag with a pair of snow-lions facing each other; that Yä-ru mä had a snow-lion with a bright upper border; that of Tsang Rulag, had a snow-lion standing upright, springing towards the sky; and the flag of ü-ru tö had a white flame against a red background, and so forth. In this way. the regiments of each area had its own individual military standard. Continuing with that tradition up to the beginning of the twentieth century, various regiments within the Tibetan army have had military flags with either a pair of snow-lions facing each other, or a snow-lion springing upwards and so forth.
"In the latter part of this period, during the rule of His Holiness the Great Thirteenth Dalai Lama, this eminent spiritual and temporal ruler of Tibet enacted many modifications in administrative policies in accordance with international customs. Based on the formats of previous Tibetan military flags, His Holiness improved upon them and designed the present, modern national flag. With an official proclamation, He declared that this would be the uniform, standard flag to be adopted by all Tibetan military defence establishments. Since the time of that proclamation, all Tibetan regiments have likewise adopted this flag as their standard.
"The colour scheme of the Tibetan national flag gives a clear indication of all aspects of Tibet in its symbolism such as the geographic features of the religious. snowy land of Tibet, the customs and traditions of Tibetan society, the political administration of the Tibetan government and so forth.
Source: www.tibet.com
Eddy29 (talk) 06:57, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Flag of Tibet - another view of its origins

message: The article reads:
"the surrounding border of yellow adorning the perimeter represents the spread and flourishing in all directions and times of the purified gold like teachings of the Buddha."
The picture must be wrong, because yellow border is not present in one of the sides.  That would mean the "spread and flourishing" don't really happen in all directions.  :)
Robertmh 13:01, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: (Untitled)

message: "It is banned in the People's Republic of China, including the Tibet Autonomous Region and the other regions which formerly constituted the independent Tibetan state." -- Please fix if there's anything incorrect here. -- 201.51.215.113 18:19, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well.. more or less, not 100%. — Instantnood 18:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was don't move. —Nightstallion (?) 10:50, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Status in PRC

message: It is not of neutral point of view to use the term "Tibet" to refer to either the the Government of Tibet in Exile" or the Government of the Tibet Autonomous Region of the People's Republic of China. I think a more neutral title would be "Flag of the Government of Tibet in Exile". 
-Alanmak 02:38, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The flag was used by the Tibetan government before 1950. While used by the government-in-exile, the flag is clearly an icon of cultural Tibet (or Tibet as a geographical region). Meanwhile, please be reminded to log this request at Wikipedia:requested moves. Thanks. — Instantnood 04:44, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Government of Tibet in Exile page has been moved by Adam Carr to Central Tibetan Administration. Should we still have the same name for the proposed page move? --Khoikhoi 05:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div>
----
Related to the move request is the template:TIB . — Instantnood 17:29, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Move request

message: How ironic.
: personally i think it looks like two ligers high-fiving, POWERFULLY. - DaoKaioshin 19:48, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  is it just me, or does this flag look like the Japanese Imperial Army flag? 

message: There should likewise be an article on the Coat of arms of Tibet. Chris 05:31, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your source for the lack of arms before exile? Chris 04:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Coat of arms

message: This is a sensitive subject. Soman, before you make swweping changes like that, discuss them here first. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 13:34, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure in what sense I'm a revisionist. The rationale for my proposal; This flag was the army flag 1912-1950s, not the national flag. The Tibetan government were quite explicit on this issue, in negotations with the PRC during the 1950s. The flag was used at army functions, but not flown at government buildings. It is today claimed as a national flag by exiled tibetans, is used by the CTA. But the flag has no official status inside Tibet at the moment. Thus the wording 'Flag of Tibet' is somewhat misleading. It could be called 'flag of the CTA', 'Tibetan army flag 1912-1959', etc., but snow lion flag (the name of the flag) covers all these descriptions, and is the most accurate title. --Soman (talk) 13:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: i feel references to earlier tibet flags should be added. this article feels incomplete. Akinkhoo (talk) 15:10, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  undiscussed move by revisionist 

message: I head that the snow lion flag was granted by Chinese Emperor Qianlong of the Qing dynasty as Tibetan army flag, the 2 lions symbolize Chinese central government, just as those stone lions in front of traditional Chinese houses.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.105.52.199 (talk) 19:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can anyone confirm this? 

message: Content:
* The sources say that "Tibetan flag", and not "Flag of Tibet" should be used. Further, because "Flag of Tibet" and "Tibetan flag" are ambiguous, (as there have been many flags in Tibetan history) the first sentence should make clear that we are talking about "Snow Lion Flag" specifically.
* The text about the symbolism of the Snow Lion Flag is a copyright violation from savetibet.org. It should be summarized and not copied, with the summary marked as folklore and not definitive, because it does not come from any official law that defines the symbolism as laws do with other flags.
* There are hundreds of pictures that we could use of people using the flag for political activism, but only one representative picture is necessary.
* This article should not have a template that places it in a series of flags of modern states and territories, because this is not a flag of a modern state or territory (or even a historical state, as it was a military flag, although there is room for debate on this point).
* This article should not have the category "Flags of indigenous people", because it is not and was not a flag of a people, but of a movement, and in the past, a military [and supposedly a state]. Even if it were a flag of the Tibetan people, which it is not, Tibetans are not considered by China, by themselves, or by most outsiders as an indigenous people.
Behavioral:
* Kintetsubuffalo should not continually revert my changes without discussing his objections.
* Kintetsubuffalo should assume good faith and discuss the contents of the edit, and not his suspicions about me.
* Kintetsubuffalo should not maintain that we are at an "impasse" when he simply won't answer my arguments.
Quigley (talk) 20:53, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Position of Quigley

message: Flags of the World contains numerous factual, grammatical, and other errors, and some of the things in there are just plain wrong.
an example of plainly ridiculous claims, if not outright lies and outrageous grammar and spelling is found on the FTOW's page on the Xibei San Ma (China)
is not a reliable source since it is self published, and in addition to that, it is full of misinformation claiming that Ma Hongkui fled to turkey (in reality, he fled to taiwan, then the united states, he had zero connections with turkey). And ma bufang never proclaimed himself sultan. And the Qinghai was not ruled by Ma Bufang until 1937, the website says 1911, in addition, the grammer on the website is horrific, an example here- "together with his brother Ma Buqing, and has the power until 1950 when it fell to Saudi Arabia because of the communist advance." (would anyone mind explaining how the province "fell to Saudi Arabia", if the communists took over it?)
On the Ma Hongkui article, i have sources which explicitly say he fled to the UNITED STATES and he did not set one foot in turkey'.  Go look at the references on the article. In fact, i'll post them right here, which say Ma Hung-kwei (old romanization for Ma Hongkui) fled to formosa, and then to San Francisco in the USA.
In addition, his entries at the rulers . org website note that he moved to america, not turkey
On the FTOW website, it claims Ma Hongbin was proclaimed sultan of ningxia in 1912. since reliable sources on the Ma Hongbin article note he was a suboordinate commader in his uncle Ma Fuxiang's army, how he got promoted to sultan? His entry at the rulers website indicate he was a military officer, never a "sultan", of a "sultanate", which never existed in real life. NO entries for "ma hongbin sultan" come up on google books if you just type in "ma hongbin", numerous sources will say he was a provincial governor and general, and say nothing about sultan
the entry contains numerous spelling errors, like  Taso Tsung Tang, which should be Zuo Zongtang, "first months of 1878 chine completed the conquest", should be, "first months of 1878 china completed the conquest", "Tu Wen Hsiao", should be Du Wenxiu or Tu Wen Hsiu, according to proper chinse romanization
this whole sentence from the entry is just atrocious in spelling and grammar- "Yakub Beg was born in Kokand and was send to East Turkestan by Kokand Khan acompanying to burzurg Khan kodja in 1865 and with conquered the last Chinese positions"
Also this totally made up, non existent claim was posted on the FTOW entry- "The last sultanate that I know of is Kweichow - that seems that has a white flag. The sultanate also was born from a Muslim revolt directed by the sect of White Lotus."
I didn't know that the Budhist White Lotus sect was really into directing muslim revolts, especially in alleged "sultanate" of Guizhou province (kweichow is an old romanization of guizhou), which never existed.Дунгане (talk) 05:29, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flags of the World is NOT a reliable source 

message: Discuss/work it out here please. There was a substantial amount of disruption going on so I have protected the page fully for 3 days. Please discuss the differences, get dispute resolution if you need it, but just resolve the issue. NativeForeigner Talk/Contribs 03:20, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I will copy parts of the conversation I had with Quigley onto this talk page. But firstly, as a (presumably) outside viewer, is it not your responsibility to revert to the reversion before any edit warring occurred? I didn't challenge that rationale once Kintetsu, who I am on ill terms with, cited it, so... --HXL's Roundtable and Record 03:30, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Work it out 

message: according to the dalai lama... 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0XlgfSgIeI
so how can it be a national/government flag? rather if he establish that the CTA is an NGO entity, shouldn't it be call an organisation flag? Akinkhoo (talk) 16:50, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  if the "exile government" does not exist, how can it be the flag of tibet? 

message: The image captioned "7th century snow lion standard of the Tibetan Emperor, Songtsen Gampo" is a modern rendition of an image found on this web-page, captioned "Ancient lion standard – courtesy of Tenzin.G.Tethong and AMI". The text on that page (an historical piece about Tibetan independence) includes "According to an eminent vexillologist, Professor Pierre Lux-Worm, the national flag of Tibet was based on an older 7th century snow lion standard of the Tibetan Emperor, Songtsen Gampo. [18]" but does not say "as shown above" or anything similar. There are no footnotes on that web-page but the piece appears on several other sites including this one which does have the footnote "18. Lux-Wurm, Pierre C. “The Story of the Flag of Tibet.” Flag Bulletin: Vol. XII – No. 1. Spring 1973." The modern image was created by  who picked up a request at WP:GL/I.
I don't have access to Flag Bulletin - does anyone else? Without it, can we be confident that the original image is a picture of a 7th century object or a even a later version of it? That is, can we assume the text refers to that image when it does not do so explicitly? NebY (talk) 16:52, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  7th-century standard? 

message: is the claim that Teichmann's description is "the first published reference" a verifiable claim for which you will provide reliable sources? Remember, your own research wouldn't be good enough unless it had been published and qualified as a reliable source in accord with Wikipedia's requirements. Also, Teichmann appears to be describing a known earlier flag but not the same flag, so it's not clear why you say Teichmann describes "the" flag. Why insist on that? NebY (talk) 13:24, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: will you provide sources for either (a) the claim that Teichmann's description is the first published or (b) the claim that he's describing the same flag that is the subject of the article and not one of the earlier flags or banners shown in the article's illustrations? NebY (talk) 16:40, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: We still have no evidence that this is the first published reference to the flag discussed in this article. We still have no evidence that it's even a reference to that flag; indeed, it's described as yellow with a sun and moon in the corner. I've pulled that claim and integrated the remaining text into the article. NebY (talk) 18:27, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  First published reference