Talk:Pahlavi scripts

message: The word Pahlavi, refering to the script of Middle Persian, itself is a borrowing from Parthian (parthau "Parthian" --> pahlaw). The word originally refered to the script (and probably language) of Parthians which was also derived from Aramaic. Middle Persian Pahlavi script was derived from Aramaic independently, although Inscription MP Pahlvi is quite similar to Inscription Parthian Pahlavi.
:The Parthians spoke an Iranian language, not a Semitic language derived from Aramaic.  I'm going to rewrite it to remove the ambiguity. --Jpbrenna 21:57, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What??? 

message: It would be good if someone could add a section to this article regarding use of the Pahlavi script on computers.  Specifically, is the script available in Unicode or any other standardized character encoding? —Psychonaut 02:51, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Computer representation

message: Hi. The ISO 15924 standard has been updated with the Phlv (133) to represent "Book Pahlavi". I don't know anything about this language, but if I have understand the article correctly "Pahlavi" and "Book Pahlavi" are two different scripts, so this code shouldn't be added to the , isn't? Best regards, —surueña 14:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ISO 15924 code 

message: This is the first time I've heard anything about a Pazend movement, as far as I've heard until now the Pazend are simply the MP commentaries explicating the Avesta, and were certainly not part of any political movement as described here. It would seem then that Iranians began efforts to clean their language of wicked Semitic influence way back in the Sasanian period and are still up to it 18 centuries later!
::Jasper Zanjani (talk) 15:58, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pazend Movement? (in Sasanian Pahlavi) 

message: We need a section on Inscriptional Parthian here. -- Evertype·✆ 09:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  To do: Inscriptional Parthian 

message: Pahlavi including logograms I understand: certain fixed words from Imperial Aramaic are pronounced as Persian (i.e. huzvarishn). Ideograms, though? A logogram expresses a word, which is what the huzvarishn are. However, they do NOT directly represent an idea; they are instead linguistic fossils. They would only be ideograms if they clearly looked like or represented the idea of a dog, or king, or whathaveyou (like, for instance, the Chinese characters for a mountain, the Moon, and the Sun). I'm removing all references to ideograms until further notice. Lockesdonkey (talk) 21:39, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ideograms? 

message: The text says:
Because of the convergence in form of many of the characters, there is a high degree of ambiguity in Pahlavi writing, which needs to be resolved by the context. For example, the name of God, Oharmazd, could equally be read (and, by Parsis, often was read) Anhoma. These difficulties were clearly felt by the Sassanian Persians themselves, as well as by modern scholars, as evidenced by the three methods used to reduce this ambiguity.
* Many common words were replaced by their Aramaic equivalents, which were used as logograms: because of their limited number, these were easily recognizable. For example, the word for "dog" was written KLB (Aramaic, kalbā) but pronounced sag. These words were known as huzvarishn.
* Important religious texts were sometimes transcribed into the Avestan alphabet, which was phonetically unambiguous: this system is called Pazend.
* After the Muslim conquest, the Pahlavi script was replaced by the Arabic script, except in Zoroastrian sacred literature.
*Re number 1: if the Aramaic equivalents were easily recognizable because of their limited number, why weren't the corresponding native words easily recognizable because of their limited number? I've never heard that the use of logograms in a language is evidence that the phonetic component of the script is felt to be difficult.
*Re number 2: specially developed orthographies for the accurate recitation of sacred texts are not uncommon, even though entire alphabets may be so. Again this doesn't prove that the usual orthography is inefficient: Hebrew without vowels is good enough for most purposes, although the sacred texts get their vowel dots.
*Re number 3: this is the most dubious of the three. The Arabic script of the time was at least as bad, and probably worse, in terms of letter convergence as Book Pahlavi: it lacked all the iʿjam dots that distinguish between consonants in today's orthography! This kind of system is not easy to decipher at all, and it was certainly no improvement for practical purposes; the Arabic alphabet was adopted together with Islam as part of Arabic cultural domination (similarly in Turkey and other Islamic non-Arab nations), and not for its efficiency.
This brings me to another thing: looking at the script tables here (p.9, 10), the convergence of characters is really great only in Book Pahlavi, which only developed after the conquest and the imposing of Islamic government and Arabic script (BTW, Book Pahlavi tried to compensate the ambiguity with dots like Arabic, which also shows that it could have been just as efficient as it). But there is almost no convergence in Psalter Pahlavi and Inscriptional Pahlavi, both of which date from Sassanian times. Thus, it seems dubious that the Sassanians were suffering from the script's ambiguity.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 00:03, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I've had this article on my to-do list for some time. If I remember right, it was Book Pahlavi that was so ambiguous as to be nearly indecipherable. kwami (talk) 23:09, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct. -- Evertype·✆ 23:28, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I must correct myself about Arabic: the first dotted text is from 643, one year before the fall of the Sassanids; so the dots were already available when the Arabic script was imposed in Iran. Still, the sources say that the dots were often treated as non-obligatory or left out completely in the first centuries after their invention. And in any case, the idea that the script was adopted because of its inherent superiority remains very unlikely, given that the Umayyads simply made Arabic the only official language, and there was a pause in Persian-language writing in general.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 03:05, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claims about ambiguity and about responses to it 

message: Shouldn't the logograms for 'dog' and 'bread' be written as KLBA and LXMA because the Aramaic words end in long ā? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.213.104.124 (talk • contribs) 
:You're right, McKenzie's Pahlavi dictionary has both of these words spelt with an aleph in the end. I've fixed this. Also replaced <x> with the <ḥ> of standard Semitological transcription. --91.148.159.4 (talk) 12:17, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orthography 

message: This appears to be irrelevant for two reasons. First, the Pahlavi scripts don't appear to have been used to write Sanskrit or Tamil (certainly not according to the article). Second, the dictionary doesn't contain any actual examples of Pahlavi scripts.
So yes, I'm removing it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.254.31.36 (talk) 15:56, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mackenzie's Pahlavi-English dictionary link appears to be for Sanskrit/Tamil dictionary 

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thread_title: File:Parchment III of Avroman (Hawraman), Kurdistan, Iran.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: http://books.google.com/books?id=dSgYAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wKXcUI36BebX0QGSioG4Bw&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA
http://books.google.com/books?id=CD5bAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wKXcUI36BebX0QGSioG4Bw&sqi=2&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=pahlavi&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=O6MrAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wKXcUI36BebX0QGSioG4Bw&sqi=2&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAg
http://books.google.com/books?id=_SdLAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wKXcUI36BebX0QGSioG4Bw&sqi=2&ved=0CEcQ6AEwAw
http://books.google.com/books?id=uUALAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wKXcUI36BebX0QGSioG4Bw&sqi=2&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBA
http://books.google.com/books?id=uCdHAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wKXcUI36BebX0QGSioG4Bw&sqi=2&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=pahlavi&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=VT5bAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wKXcUI36BebX0QGSioG4Bw&sqi=2&ved=0CFgQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=pahlavi&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=GaMrAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wKXcUI36BebX0QGSioG4Bw&sqi=2&ved=0CF0Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=pahlavi&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=aU0IAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wKXcUI36BebX0QGSioG4Bw&sqi=2&ved=0CGEQ6AEwCA
http://books.google.com/books?id=PAhEAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wKXcUI36BebX0QGSioG4Bw&sqi=2&ved=0CGcQ6AEwCQ
http://books.google.com/books?id=81NMAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hqbcUIvmAu2J0QH0uICwCA&ved=0CDwQ6AEwATgK
http://books.google.com/books?id=xbAQAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hqbcUIvmAu2J0QH0uICwCA&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAjgK
http://books.google.com/books?id=srkOAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hqbcUIvmAu2J0QH0uICwCA&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAzgK
http://books.google.com/books?id=5ww9AAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hqbcUIvmAu2J0QH0uICwCA&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBDgK
http://books.google.com/books?id=9ZgCAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hqbcUIvmAu2J0QH0uICwCA&ved=0CGEQ6AEwBzgK
http://books.google.com/books?id=6fFEAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=j6fcUKfIFrG80QGCl4GoBQ&ved=0CD0Q6AEwATgU
http://books.google.com/books?id=0oMpAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=j6fcUKfIFrG80QGCl4GoBQ&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAzgU
http://books.google.com/books?id=raoTAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6afcUJ_gN9TD0AHLqoGQDQ&ved=0CFoQ6AEwCDge
http://books.google.com/books?id=5ClGAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6afcUJ_gN9TD0AHLqoGQDQ&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAzge#v=onepage&q=pahlavi&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=NMwzAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eqjcUO_YI8eP0QGC7YCIAw&ved=0CDgQ6AEwADhQ#v=onepage&q=pahlavi&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=rWhAAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eqjcUO_YI8eP0QGC7YCIAw&ved=0CGMQ6AEwCDhQ#v=onepage&q=pahlavi&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=KGA-AAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eqjcUO_YI8eP0QGC7YCIAw&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBDhQ
http://books.google.com/books?id=AGEVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA135&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LancUJP9Hem40QGzroHgBw&ved=0CGwQ6AEwCThk#v=onepage&q=pahlavi&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=YW0SAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA16&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hqbcUIvmAu2J0QH0uICwCA&ved=0CGgQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=pahlavi&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=Fv0RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA332&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=j6fcUKfIFrG80QGCl4GoBQ&ved=0CGEQ6AEwCTgU#v=onepage&q=pahlavi&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=0c8nAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA314&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=j6fcUKfIFrG80QGCl4GoBQ&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBDgU#v=onepage&q=pahlavi&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=SFcMAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA152&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=j6fcUKfIFrG80QGCl4GoBQ&ved=0CDgQ6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q=pahlavi&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=-CQDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA90&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eqjcUO_YI8eP0QGC7YCIAw&ved=0CEoQ6AEwAzhQ#v=onepage&q=pahlavi&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=-sNBAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA473&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eqjcUO_YI8eP0QGC7YCIAw&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAjhQ#v=onepage&q=pahlavi&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=9mR2QXrVEJIC&pg=PA204&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eqjcUO_YI8eP0QGC7YCIAw&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAThQ#v=onepage&q=pahlavi&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=Tb5LAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA354&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eqjcUO_YI8eP0QGC7YCIAw&ved=0CF4Q6AEwBzhQ#v=onepage&q=pahlavi&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=xgdBAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA273&dq=pahlavi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=I6ncUPG-EcbL0AGR24H4Ag&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBDha#v=onepage&q=pahlavi&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=Hf5GAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=JroOAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
Rajmaan (talk) 20:04, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pahlavi Glossaries, texts, essays and dictionaries 

message: Hi, the image on the top left, has been used twice. 
With the caption: "The word Ērānšahr in Book Pahlavi'
Here is the address to the image:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eranshahr.svg
It looks Avestan to me and not Pahlavi. You might want to check it with a specialist. Yazeh (talk) 19:29, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The word Eranšahr in Book Pahlavi