Talk:Mutaween

message: i suggest to chang the name Mutaween because in saudi the name Mutaween mean (religious man) and so any one who come to saudi well very confeosed so i suggest to use there offical name (hesbah) or the more commen name haia'a (arabic:هيئه) if any one think otherwise reply --Arabian soul 11:25, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  the naming 

message: What makes Iran and Nigeria "Islamist".  Saudi Arabia would consider itself salafi'ist rather than Wahabbi'ist, but calling it Islamist would be acceptable.  Would it not make more sense to refer to them as Muslim nations? --Irishpunktom\talk 11:51, September 6, 2005 (UTC)
*Rightly or wrongly, the term "Islamist" refers to nations where stripes of radical Islam has taken hold.  For example (and bearing in mind this example is from the general Western view), Malaysia and Iran are both Muslim nations, but Malaysia has a more open and democratic society, whereas Iran does not.  Thus, Malaysia is a "Muslim nation", whereas Iran is an "Islamist nation".  It's a rather pointless label (Malaysia does some things that Westerners would consider disquieting, and Iran is not as bad as some Western nations make it out to be), but that's the general western view.  I'm sure that some Muslim nations probably have "categories" for Western/Christian/etc. nations, too.--Mitsukai 12:31, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islamist 

message: I removed the last paragraph under the Duties of the Mutaween section:
::Generally, in Western eyes members of this authority shall appear as monstrous suppressors, for whom formal laws are more important than human life, who encourage snitchers, who denies basical human rights and so on. Most probably, this Western view is true, and might be shared by the vast majority of Muslims. Comparisons are frequently drawn between the mutaween and other organizations who enforced religious and/or political dogma, such as the Gestapo, Stasi, KGB, and the inquisition.
This is unencyclopedic commentary. I actually agree with the statement "Most probably, this Western View is true" but such commentary has no place in a NPOV encyclopedia.--Brentt 21:15, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In my personal opinion I think they are pricks who should all be locked in mental hostpitals. I would certainly be a target of the Mutaween, as I am an athiestic libertarian-socialist who enjoys ingesting recreational drugs and whom is not very fond of the terrible hardship that such incarnations of Islam has wrought on people--and a unabashed Zionist to boot. But this is a encyclopedia with a strict NPOV policy, not a place to insert our opinions. --Brentt 22:03, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't think the initial pargraph is actually too poorly written. Of course, removing emotional language and making it more passive is 100% necessary, but otherwise I don't see the unencylopaedic nature of it. I do, of course, agree with the fact that we can't express any form of personal opinion in this article as a fact. Cheers, Hauser 06:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Duties of the Mutaween Commentary Removed

message: Due to the size of this page, I have archived topics earlier than June 2005.  They can be accessed from the link at top.--み使い Mitsukai 02:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive

message: I may be ignorant on the subject, but from what I understand, the Mutaween and the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice are the same thing.  Perhaps that article should be merged into this one?  --Tbook 23:26, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: More specifically (i.e., narrowly), the Committee is the Saudi government buearocracy which enforces Sharia.--Mike18xx 05:14, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: Among several accuracy issues at this article is the section I have just tagged regarding nations featuring "mutaween" - the section offers a subjective and flawed definition of what constitutes "mutaween" in those countries and no sources are offered to back up such claims. Iran, for instance, does not have any police force described as "mutaween." SouthernComfort 03:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a merely a language quibble; Iran otherwise has extra-legal enforcement organizations similar to those in other Islamic nations, and they are detailed.--Mike18xx 18:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Accuracy

message: the website of austria's national public-service broadcaster ORF states :
*ger.: "Auch das geringste Anzeichen nichtislamischer Religionsausübung - etwa der Besitz von Kreuzen, Ikonen, Bibeln, christlicher Literatur - wird von der "Mutawayin", die angeblich nach 1945 von konvertierten Gestapoleuten aufgebaut wurde, als Staatsverbrechen verfolgt.", meaning
*engl.: "Even the least indication of non-islamic worship - for instance the possession of crosses, icons, bibles, christian literature - will be punished as political crime by the "Mutawayin", which was developed allegedly after 1945 by converted members of the Gestapo."
is there any reference for the gestapo-connection ? -- Cherubino 17:57, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the Basij should get a mention in this artical as it is part of there duties,Hejazi described the prohibition of vice and the promotion of virtue in society as the "divine policy" of the Basij. So they should be in here.Hypnosadist 12:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Gestapo]] 

message: This article cannot figure out whether it is about Saudi Arabia or about Muslims in general. There is so much personal opinion and bigotry here I cannot sort it all out. I have removed an entire section because it was completely someones opinion and had no sources to link these countries with mutaween. Please do not spread your anti-Muslim holy wars here on Wikipedia. AlMuslimeen 05:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the government of suadi box should be removed as that would pertain to the Commity of vice and vertue, not to the concept of Mutaween in general,which is what this artical should be about.Hypnosadist 12:10, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Anti-Muslim article

message: What other countries do have or have had Mutaween, i know the talaban in afganistan did so they should be here,anyone else.Hypnosadist 12:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mutaween in other countries

message: Accusing a source of "partisanship" is not the same as proving it inaccurate.--Mike18xx 22:40, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: you may wish to note that accusing an editor of being an "Islamist partisan" is a personal attack. i suggest you stop. thank you. ITAQALLAH 23:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If such a designation truly bothers you, then I suggest you do something about your own user page. Be that as it may, your instant obsession with ad hominem obscura suggests that you've nothing to say about the verifiability of the sources you wish to expunge -- which is as I suspected. Complaining about moi is just a red herring to distract attention.--Mike18xx 23:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Partisanship"

message: Itagallah, please provide us poor, flounding Wikipedians with a list of some sources with are (A) not "unacceptably biased" in your eyes while simultaneously not (B) stooges of Islamist propaganda in my eyes. Prior to then, I suggest refraining from removal of an otherwise verifiable source for no other reason than that you don't like them.--Mike18xx 23:20, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: no, i stated that the narrative you have based upon this source is unacceptably biased. the quote from "AsiaNews" has always remained in the article, something i am sure you are aware of. ITAQALLAH 23:29, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You may consider is "unacceptably biased" (a pure arbitrary for starters, and "biased" against whom you do not indicate {the Mutaween???}.), but it is, however, verified by the source.--Mike18xx 23:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Murder and theft are also religious crimes. --Sa.vakilian 05:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: <guffaw> You mean except when authorized by Muhammad against unbelievers?--Mike18xx 07:08, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it a murder when the mutaween thugs force little girls back into a burning building?  Or is that an example of an "acceptable" human sacrifice in this stone-age nut-cult?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.157.14 (talk) 06:55, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

text: How would that be even slightly relevant to the subject of religious police?--Mike18xx 07:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because you don't like a notable source doesn't mean that it isn't reliable. If you have evidence that these reports are erroneous -- please post it >right here<. Until then, I will cheerfully maintain that they do have a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". It is not necessary that a notable source's reporting be corroborated in another notable source. Be that as it may, I've added another ten references for you to get all incensed about.--Mike18xx 21:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Just because you don't like a notable source doesn't mean that it isn't reliable." - apart from conflating notability with reliability, i don't think a Christian proselytising website can be considered a reliable source. in any case, reliability is not assumed until disproven, it must be proven. i do appreciate you have tried to collect further sources to add weight to the paragraph, but you fail to realise that we report - precisely - what sources say, and don't use sources to justify assertions they don't specifically relate. as such, the reference-spamming does not save the paragraph from being original research. some of the newly added sources appear to be reliable and useful (and, upon cursory reading, pertinent), so i will go about incorporating them without the unencyclopedic paragraph. ITAQALLAH 22:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Unacceptably biased"

message: I think that the Saudi Arabian section should be the first for several reasons. The first and i think foremost being that the word Mutaween is saudi in origin. Second that this is the most well sourced section and third is the least controversial.Hypnosadist 16:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Saudi Arabia First

message: User:Sa.vakilian has deleted this entire section without compunction & left an unrelated remark at the edit summary.--Wiki2Go 21:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My dear friend, talk page is not a soapbox. You can add it in your personal soapbox. I put an explanation in the talk page and nobody challenged it during one month. Then I removed the section from the article and nobody protested. Even one wikipedian supported. Thus we can't leave it in the article or the talk page without discussion.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 06:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Morality police in Iran 

message: - The government relied on "special units" (yegan ha-ye vizhe), to complement the existing morality police, called "Enjoining the Good and Prohibiting the Forbidden" (Amr be Ma'ruf va Nahi az Monkar) in an effort to combat "un-Islamic behavior" and social corruption among the young. These auxiliaries were to assist in enforcing the Islamic Republic's strict rules of moral behavior. Credible press reports indicated members of this morality force chased and beat persons in the streets for offenses such as listening to music or, in the case of women, wearing makeup or clothing regarded as insufficiently modest or being accompanied by unrelated menCountry Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2006 for Iran United States Department of State. 
This is an Islamic practice.  I don't understand why User:Sa.vakilian cringes and feels so ashamed to delete even the talk page sections.  The mullahs are purposely doing this to win the support of the ulema around the globe.  I surmise that they prefer to advertise it as much as the nuclear program.  Your censoring in fact gives credibility to those who claim Iran is un-Islamic, run by Shias, and try to divide Muslims.--NotSoFast3 07:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chasing teenagers down the street in Islamic Iran 

message: There isn't especial police force for religious crimes in Iran. On one hand most of the crimes including theft, murder, adultery and etc are religious. On the other hand Police is responsible for confronting every crime, although there were another forces in the past who confront with crime but after Qalibaf's reforms all of them are managed by police of Iran.--Sa.vakilian 15:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed what about Iran in this article after waiting one month for answer to these criticism.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 05:20, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't fret about removing the nonsense about Iran.  I believe that it was a "Patchouli" relic.  The Behnam 05:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

text: My dear friend, we can't call some informal groups like Ansar Hezbollah or semi official groups like Basij az police. Police has a clear definition in Iran as well as other countries. --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 08:02, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Dear Sa.vakilian, please stop calling me your friend. Secondly, as I posted the link above, they are often called "police" even by the BBC, so in fact the definition of police is consistent in this case --Rayis 17:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not important what BBC says when it's not officially police force. As defined in Police article, Police are agents or agencies empowered to use force and other forms of coercion and legal means to effect public and social order. The term is most commonly associated with police departments of a state that are authorized to exercise the police power of that state within a defined legal or territorial area of responsibility. Please go there and change the definition.  --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 03:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Sa, we are discouraged from checking facts from sources. That's not our job. The article that I provided says that we have religious/morality police in Iran. They may not be official forces, but who says Ansar-e Hezbollah for example, are official? Does that mean they do not operate without 100% of the gvoernment's backing? This article as it stands, says that Mutaween are official or semi-official  forces. Perhaps the whole thing is incorrect. If you have sources that say otherwise, please provide them, but do not remove material until disputes are solved, as with the other article --Rayis 10:14, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The police's site of Iran show we don't have. OK we can write both of them in the article. --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 13:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added something but User:Khorshid removed it. I think at least 3 persons including me, Khorshid and The Behnam believe it's not correct to add Iran in this article.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 08:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Don't think so, and wikipedia is not a sort of democracy where you can bully someone by numbers, stick to the rules --Rayis 01:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is no secret.  Jim Dunnigan talks about Iran's religious police at http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=47359 --IslamicIran 01:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Iran:controversial

message: *Iran police in fashion crackdown
*Old Iran... ...Vs. New, July 1998
*Generation ex-communicated September 2002
*Islamo-morality Police Busy In Iran - City Tackles Those 'Titillating Mannequins'
*Iranians arrested for net dating March 2003
--IslamicIran 01:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is incorrect to use "mutaween" (which is not a general term for "religious police" but refers to specific type of concept) in relation to Iran, Afghanistan, etc. The proper articles are Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps and Basij, but this is not the place for original research and personal interpretation. Why you would try to connect this Saudi concept to Iran is mind boggling. Khorshid 03:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop Patchouli. Everyday you come with a new sock puppet.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 09:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More sources for Iran 

message: while the mutaween are some of the more well known morality police, there are others, both legal and extra-legal. This usually occurs in asia.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,395996,00.html (india)
morality police can range from police cracking down on courting couples to vigilante groups attacking anyone who they deem is being "immoral"
strictly speaking, morality police would be any group who violently and publicly oppose what they think is "immoral", but generally are social conservatives. 
i feel that since the term "morality police" is a pan-religious term, it should be expanded to include all kinds of morality policing, not just the Mutaween, since pointing the "morality police" section to the mutaween gives the impression they are the only morality police out there
LKGeek 12:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Morality police other than the mutaween 

message: Any objections? --BoogaLouie 22:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Have trimmed down the Mutaween#Mutaween in Saudi Arabia section and expanded the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice article. Hope everybody likes it. --BoogaLouie 22:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed move of most of Saudi section to [[Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice]] 

message: Hello. I wonder if anyone can write a few paragraphs about the history of mutaween. When was the committee for the prevention of vice established, what were its forerunners, when did it assume its present-day significance, that sort of thing. Have a great day. 4.227.233.20 (talk) 19:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  History -- when was it established? 

message: I have attempted to wikify this note:
:NOTE: Mutawwa means "volunteer" in Arabic. It is used CASUALLY as a synonym for religious police, but in fact simply means "pious man". The proper term for the Saudi religious police is "hayaa" which is Arabic for "commission" and is a shortened version of "the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vices". This is an important etymological distinction because many native Arab speakers will use "mutawwa" simply to refer to any orthodox Muslim. So if non-Arab Westerners disparage the "mutawwa" (meaning the religious police) many native Arab speakers would interpret that to mean a disparagement of orthodox Muslim in general. This Wiki entry is misleading. It's very important to recognize that the traditional meaning of mutawwa is simply any Muslim that "volunteers" to adopt all the orthodoxies of Islam, including the non-compulsory ones such as growing long beards (for men), or (for women) wearing the Niqab (the full face veil). If ne uses the term "mutawwa" to refer specifically to "religious police" (as in state-sanctioned moral police authorities, like you see in Iran and Saudi Arabia) one much be clear that this is the type of "mutawwa" he or she is referring to. 
--BoogaLouie (talk) 23:07, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikifying note by anon

message: I type in Religious Police and get this. Surely Saudi Arabia isn't the only country with religious police, is it? One could argue that, here in America, there is religious police here. We were tried for sodomy in many states until 2003, for example. Thoughts? GnarlyLikeWhoa (talk) 16:23, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Countries 

message: It has been suggested that The Religious Policeman entry should be merged with this one. I disagree for the following reasons:
- This entry describes the role, rationale and activities of Mutaween or Religious Policemen. 'The Religious Policeman' entry describes a blog which uses that title because it satirises the Saudi Religious Police, the Saudi Arabian government, and human rights within Saudi Arabia. The orientations and subject matter of the two entries therefore differ greatly.
- Any merging of the two entries would bring together two communities whose outlook could be widely different, strongly antipathetic, and lead to unnecessary conflict. This entry will largely appeal to Muslims whose religious and cultural outlook tends to be serious and traditional. The entry for 'The Religious Policeman' will appeal to a wider international and multi-religious community whose attitude to Islam will vary from dubious to explicity antagonistic.
- This entry falls within the scope of the Law Enforcement project. The 'Religious Policeman' entry falls within the scope of the Blogging project. These different classifications alone argue that the two entries should remain separate.
PJO'M (talk) 11:02, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion to merge 'The Religious Policeman' entry into this entry. 

message: It seems to this Westerner that the only notable cases of the Saudi or other mutaween arresting or harassing people for homosexuality is in regards to male sexuality.  Are lesbians and/or bisexual women ignored by the religious police?  -75.57.7.223 (talk) 19:31, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homosexuality 

message: :"In June of 1995 it is said that 58 of these saudi mutaween were shot down and killed by unknown forces; the causes for the shoot out have been discovered that due to their nature of turning people in, one of the family members of the shooters was turned in and hung for unknown causes,as a result the friends and family took matters into their own hands and shoot each and everyone of these saudi mutaween dead,the shooters are unknown and the case remains open today."
I hope this is true but I suspect it is not. It smacks of wishful thinking by some regular Saudi who (quite understandably) hates the Mutawi'in. Do we have any sources for this?
--Lyphatma (talk) 05:56, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  58 of these saudi mutaween were shot 

message: The Arabic meaning of the word "Mutawwa'" is not "volunteer", rather it carries the meaning of enforcement.
The word in Arabic is from the root "ط و ع" which relates to "will".
The variation might not be clear in non-Arabic writings; however, in Arabic the word "مطوع" can carry many meanings, including:
# Muttawwe' (stressing the T & W sounds, and with the E sound before the end): Volunteer
# Mutawwa' (not stressing the T sound, stressing the W sound, and with the A sound before the end): Enforced
# Mutawwe' (not stressing the T sound, stressing the W sound, and with the E sound before the end): Enforcer
# Mutawe' (not stressing the T or W sounds, extended A sound in the middle, and with the E sound before the end): Milder Enforcer
The common usage of the word in Saudi Arabia suggests meaning 3 or 4 above. If meaning 1 was intended, then the pronunciation of the word would be different.
There is also a chance that the local dialect is the cause of the confusion.
Fahapro (talk) 14:57, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I really don't know what "stressing" is supposed to mean in this context, but the Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic defines مطوع muțawwaʕ plural muțțawwiʕ as having the primary meaning "volunteer".  The only verb participle which could mean anything like "enforcer" would be the stem II active, muțawwiʕ... AnonMoos (talk) 10:25, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arabic Meaning of the Name ...