Talk:Believer's baptism

message: :The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 06:41, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archived debate 

message: Proposal  :            	Believers baptism → Believer's baptism
Rationale :  	Better grammar, more commonly used term, including throughout the article. The only obstruction is a minor edit to target redirect page.
Proposer :             	BigBlueFish 19:00, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div>
=== Technical change to the above archive ===
The archived debate did not give a true record, as the proposal did not show the original page name because of the way it was constructed, and hence made no sense. I have examined the history and modified the archive for the sole purpose of giving a true record. John Campbell (talk) 16:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 

message: The archived debate did not give a true record, as the proposal did not show the original page name because of the way it was constructed, and hence made no sense. I have examined the history and modified the archive for the sole purpose of giving a true record. John Campbell (talk) 16:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Technical change to the above archive 

message: I have changed "and many Protestant churches baptize infant children of believers"
to "and a number of Protestant churches baptize infant children of believers"
When we look at the Protestants, we find that quite a big number of them practice Believers Baptism. The rise of Pentecostal churches within the last decades has changed the statistics. By now the majority of Protestants were baptized as believers. This might not be the case in Europe, but especially in the developing countries. Stating that "many" Protestant churces practise infant baptism suggests that those who practise Believers baptism are a minority. That would be a very Europe-centered view, and suggests something that is no longer the case. 
Heiko Evermann 21:16, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  many Protestant churches => a number of Protestant churches, see talk page 

message: Shouldn't the title of this artice be Believer's Baptism? --Amazon10x 19:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made some changes to make the whole of "believer's baptism" stand out a little better as well as to acknowledge the fundamental differences maintained by the churches of Christ who are not denominational, Roman Catholic or Protestant. I changed the word "pastor" to "minister" under the picture as "pastor" has a biblical meaning (generally elder) for which there are biblical qualifications. Many if not most of todays "pastors" are not able to qualify to so call themselves "pastors." Sky 15:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 'Minister' and 'Pastor' are in practice both courtesy titles. I don't think it is our place here to discuss the biblical qualifications to be so called, and we should rely on the styling adopted in the photo details. Unfortunately there is no information provided. John Campbell (talk) 09:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  article title and photo caption 

message: The article states:
"Believer's baptism is more prevalent in Christian traditions which maintain that there is a state of innocency from birth to the age of accountability (if the believer, due to mental or emotional disability, is not likely to gain the ability to judge the morality of his or her actions, this state of innocency persists for life). Credobaptism is less prevalent in traditions which maintain that the corruption of original sin is present at birth and is sufficient guilt in the eyes of God to cause the child to be damned, should it die before baptism."
This statement assumes that a belief in "original sin" means a belief that an unbaptised person is damned, and that baptism is considered necessary for salvation - but while some on each side believe this, some certainly don't.  Many people (myself included) who believe in believers' baptism (not as a necessity for salvation) also believe in original sin.  In fact, as far as I was aware, most do.  Of course, this creates problems.  If everyone is born a sinner, but can only be saved by believing in Jesus, what about those who are too young to do so?  Many would say, "we don't know, but God will do what is right," with the assumption that sending babies to hell would not come under the heading of "right"!  Anyway, don't catholics, who certainly believe in baptism for salvation, believe that unbaptised babies go to limbo, instead of being "damned"?  
Not sure how to edit this, but I have added in limbo.
KMcA 20:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original Sin 

message: I would suggest adding the following verse:
: "... Baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." --I Peter 3:21. 
Also, I fixed a few punctuation errors, incuding a missing parentheses ")" at the end on "
(See Independent Christian Churches."
--Creton4 207.43.79.22 19:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and the older translations phrase this as the "interrogation of a good conscience".  DFH 15:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Good Conscience Toward God' 

message: As I understand it, LDS also believe in baptism only after age of accountability.  (WP:OR - I am not myself an LDS but I have family who converted.)  Should they be included here, or alternatively, if they don't fall under the category, should some explanation be given?  I have no stake in the matter, just raising the question.  --Davecampbell 19:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Include LDS here? 

message: Did anyone else not have a clue what this guy is talking about?
"One standard theological argument leveled against believer's baptism is that it makes the efficacy of the sacrament dependent upon the understanding of the baptisand; that is, it depends upon what the baptisand knows. This runs counter to the Calvinistic belief that God saves whomever he wills, regardless of any worthiness or knowledge on the part of the saved. It also runs contrary to the concept of free will and the notion of choice."
Sounds messed up to me. Totally wrong.
In my experience, the one to be baptized in a believer's baptism because he then knows Christ. Doing so does not actually save him; it merely goes in accordance with the scripture somewhere in the bible that says go and be baptized, once you are saved. It symbolizes your relation with Christ. During the time period that the Romans ruled Judea, being baptized was merely showing your strong commitment to anything, Jesus used it to symbolize a strong commitment to him.
And for the last sentence I quoted: God DOES save whoever he wants, which is everyone, but only if they accept him.
Just my little kick at it.
The Editor 2 22:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The sentence I have added that begins "Reformed Baptist theologians ...." is based on my reading of the book by Fred Malone. DFH 15:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The first part of the sentence is indeed a standard argument by sacramentalists (although not one I personally agree with): "One standard theological argument leveled against believer's baptism is that it makes the efficacy of the sacrament dependent upon the understanding of the baptisand; that is, it depends upon what the baptisand knows." The rest of the sentence appears to be the editor's own argument and so I would call it WP:OR -- what's more it seems to miss the sacramental/sacerdotal point. Obviously what we need to do here is set out the objections and the responses, not agree or disagree with them; however the whole section seems confused and confusing. John Campbell (talk) 15:49, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theological Objections (2) 

message: I question the 80% paedobaptist/20% credobaptist figure. Pentecostals are nearly always credobaptists, and some figures I've read have estimated the number of Pentecostals at over 400 million. Most credobaptists belong to independent congregations, so getting an accurate number is difficult. There is also the problem that churches only count baptized members as adherents - this means that paedobaptist churches count their children, but credobaptists do not. This puts the number of Baptists, for example, around 40 million worldwide. But when you count Baptist children, you get a number above 100 million. If the same ratio holds true for Pentecostals and various evangelical denominations and non-denominational churches, there are nearly a billion people associated with credobaptist churches, making the ratio of credobaptists to paedobaptists something like 45% to 55%.--ManicBrit 00:43, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of Adherents 

message: I moved the paragraph about the prevalence of the practice to a lower spot in the article, and gave it its own heading. I did this to improve the article's readability. The original sentence was added by an Eastern Catholic who has openly stated his hostility to non-Catholic traditions, and was placed high in the article as an apparent attempt to disparage those who practice believer's baptism. Later revisions made the paragraph choppy, and started the article with a discussion of the practice's prevalence and the way church membership statistics are calculated rather than a discussion of the practice and its theology. Therefore, I tightened up the word and moved it to its new location. --ManicBrit (talk) 12:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prevalence 

message: ...other groups such as Apostolics do hold baptism to have salvation value.
The name Apostolic is used by several groups. One European group practises infant baptism. The Pentecostal church of this name that came out of the Welsh Revival practises believer's baptism, but does not consider it necessary to salvation. The term "Apostolics" here was linked (via a redirect) to an article on the Apostolic Brethren, a 12th or 13th century sect—unlikely to be the one that the editor was thinking of. Copey 2 (talk) 14:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which Apostolics? 

message: The believers baptism advocates have the same problem that i do . Its hard to be neutrial . I do not think i would delite the articles written by believers baptism advocates, when they came against infant baptism  though . And if they were not gramaticaly correct and i knew how to correct them i would . And then  I would simply do my best to disprove them . 
  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.127.141.196 (talk) 03:37, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that you are a new user with just a URL. Those with more "cred" behind there names and a real username sometimes get away with stuff you can't because you haven't regestered. My own personal suggestion is to register, get a username, and then stick to editing some strictly Lutheran articles for a while until you have a sufficient history, which will give you more credibility. It might even make them respect your points of view (which are mine, too) in a credible manner. Instead of editing stuff that is prone to edit wars (during which they'll often deleate your stuff even if it is well cited), carve a niche for yourself where they won't bother you. For example, you could pick names of early orthodox Lutherans from List_of_Protestant_Reformers and add stuff you've copied from this book to their articles.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 21:32, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: NNPOV debates

message: This article is about believer's baptism. The term is the one used generally. It is grammatically correct in that it the baptism that belongs to a believer. A quick Google search shows 12,700 for "believer baptism" -believer's (believer baptism) and 152,000 for "believer's baptism". The former term is the one in use. It is therefore correct based on usage. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:34, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is about BELIEVER BAPTISM, not a particular believer's baptism.  Would we call the corresponding practice "infant's baptism"?  No, the related article and subject are not about any particular infant's baptism, but about infant baptism.  I believe in and practice believer baptism.  Both terms are in use, as your Google search showed.  One term is grammatically correct, while the other is mistaken but more common.  An encyclopedia is not supposed to be a mirror of society, but a collection of reliable knowledge.  As such, this article should be titled "believer baptism", not "believer's baptism".     GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 20:05, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  No. It's about believer's baptism. The term is possessive. The corresponding term is infant baptism because that's the term used by that group. The article should be believer's baptism, and has been call this for more than eight years. From what I can see, you have been the first editor to be concerned about this. I have, to date, only heard one person use the term believer baptism, and you're that person. I've been around both terms for close to 25 years. Perhaps some other editors would like to weigh in. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:26, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do no not universalize your own experience, and please remember this is an encyclopedia, not a societal memoir.  I have heard the term "believer's baptism" my whole life too.  I have also heard the term "irregardless" much more than not, regardless of the fact that it is stupid.  Moreover, most people over correct in using the pronoun "I", and use it inappropriately as the object of a sentence, as in "John helped Jim and I."  No one has mentioned this issue prior because most are either unaware that it is poor English, or (as I up to this point) thought it too trivial an issue.  However, when you think about it, it makes those of us that practice credobaptism sound dumb, and a bit backward.  "Believer baptism" is just as accessible a term, and happens to be grammatically correct.  I too would welcome more voices.  Is this an encyclopedia, or a societal mirror?     GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 21:13, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Neither. It's Wikipedia. Your examples are incomplete, and irrelevant. The term will simply confuse and as such should not be used. That is my point. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:23, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The examples are not irrelevant because it is a grammatical issue.  On the confusion issue, I think you would be right if we were to replace the term with "credobaptism", a term that I like and is accurate (but only used in scholarly works), but the term "believer baptism" is so close to the more familiar term "believer's baptism" that it could hardly be confused by anyone.  Seriously.     GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 22:04, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

text: BTW, just for the record, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia (or is supposed to be).    GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 22:08, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

text:  One point further. Will you go about redacting the more than seventy articles on Wikipedia that use the term and the thirty or so that use a variant? I only found one that uses your term. You must realize that those article all use that term independently of each other. One editor didn't create them all. They all agree that believer's baptism is the correct term. The variants use the terms believers' baptism and believers baptism more frequently than yours. Also, back to Google. Searching for believer baptism (no quotes) returns this article first, and then Baptist which uses the term believer's baptism. In fact, ninety-seven of the first 100 use the term believer's baptism, and one that uses your term has actually removed the term completely from the article. The term may be grammatically incorrect, but the grammatically correct term is used so infrequently that it's virtually unknown. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:57, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I would be happy to make the effort.     GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 21:14, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't like your method of indenting. I never said that believer's baptism was grammatically correct, I merely said that it was more common and as such should be the term used. As for redacting, don't be foolish. You will run into the same problem on every one of those articles as you are here. Explain how you're right because you have some rules of grammar on your side while they will argue that they have common usage on their side. Will you then go about and correct every conversation on the topic? When will you stop your efforts at correcting what doesn't need to be corrected? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:21, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't do what's right, just do what we've always done.  Hmmm.     GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 21:55, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  In this case, right would be wrong. It's not the case where a few people incorrectly use the term "you and I" or talk of "unthawing" meat. It's more along the lines of "pre-heating" an oven, where such an incorrect term has become so common, that it has become correct usage. No matter what you say, it is the common usage. If you want to add a section on what you think the correct usage should be, feel free. But any change is ludicrous and filled with hubris: "I know that almost every person on the planet who speaks English and refers to this uses this term, but here's why you're wrong and a handful of us are really right". --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I never said "believer baptism" was more common than "believer's baptism".  I took your 10:1 stats at face value.  My only concern is that it sounds dumb.  We credobaptists already get thought dumb by paedobaptists (though they are truly biblically in error), why add more fuel to the fire by sounding dumb in using poor English?  It is not hubris to not want to sound dumb.     GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 22:27, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry. Never meant to imply that you said it. Believer's baptism is the grammatically incorrect term, but it is the one in common usage. Te reason why is it a baptism that belongs to an individual believer. It's not done to them: they own it. It's their death and resurrection. The infant has no say in the baptism done to them. Again, that's not a value judgment on my part. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:43, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate the grammatical concession.  It is correct that the relationship that the baptism represents is one that involves choice on both sides, and that an infant cannot express such a choice, but the point of baptism is not choices made, the point is to express the covenantal union between Christ and his Church in the particular member of the church being recognized as a member of the New Covenant.  Paedobaptists can also point to fine theological points, like the fact that the baptismal recipient is clearly being given a gracious gift that cannot possibly have been bought by merit in the recipient, but again the point is the expression of the covenantal union.  The covenantal union is the point of the act.  I can no more own my baptism than I can own my birth.  It is just who I am.  Yes, it's mine, but I didn't initiate the union, God did.  The point is not what I, the believer, did.    GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 23:24, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

text: BTW, nice examples... "unthawing" and "pre-heating".  :-)     GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 22:39, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

text: Believer's baptism is both more commonly used and grammatically correct. I do not think it should be changed to "Believer baptism". Difu Wu (talk) 21:02, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right in that it is more common, but you're wrong in that it is grammatically incorrect for an article title.    GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 21:15, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "Believer's baptism" is grammatically correct, while "believer baptism" is probably not. The possessive should be used, to denote baptism belonging to the believer. The use of "believer's baptism" has the established usage, while there is no evidence to suggest that "believer baptism" is anything more than someone's original research or a neologism, inappropriate for an encyclopaedic entry. Thanks. Difu Wu (talk) 22:08, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: On the grammatical point alone (because that's all that should matter in an encyclopedia), if you were serious then you should be advocating for the use of the term "infant's baptism" because it is "baptism belonging to the infant".  But you are not, because your argument is really resting solely on frequency of usage.  You do not have the grammatical point on your side.  Ask an English teacher.     GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 22:17, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "Infant's baptism" is grammatically correct, but "infant baptism" is more commonly used. Grammar is not all that should matter in an encyclopedia, but established usage should decide. An encyclopedia is not the place for original research or neologism. Therefore, I would not advocate for the use of "infant's baptism", which though grammatically correct, is not the established usage. On the other hand, "believer baptism" is neither grammatically correct, nor the established usage, hence it should not be used. Difu Wu (talk) 22:41, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Dude, really?  You do know how to go all in.  I'll give you that.     GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 23:31, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: This article is about...

message: Sorry for the comment in the reverts. It's not that they comments were off-topic so much as they were unsourced and carrying on a debate within the article. The information is quite interesting and should probably be presented in a more encyclopedic way, with appropriate references, to avoid accusations of POV. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:36, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent Updates

message: Dear Wikipedia,
I would like to request to have a page of my website linked in this section.  In my opinion my website offers the following benefits:
- Because I have studied baptism over the last 30 years, the material on the website is very well researched.
- The book Believer's Baptism is an important book on the topic, currently at the forefront of the debate between believer's baptism and infant baptism; this site includes a paper responding to that book.
- A regular schedule of emails are being sent throughout the next year to over 1,000 Baptist seminary professors, over 1,000 paedobaptist pastors and a growing number of websites for critique and input.
- This website is professional in format and is easily navigated.   
- This website has been analyzed for search engine optimization and it continues to improve consistently. 
The page to be linked is:
http://dialogos-studies.com/Dialogos/baptism/infant_baptism.htm
If you have any questions on this you can reach me at herb@dialogos-studies.com. 
Thank You,
Herb Kraker
75.40.242.73 (talk) 01:19, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as it meets WP:EL, it should be OK here. The site seems a little disorganized though. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:41, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for External Link 

message: How does one follow up? I haven't used a format like this before. I would like to ask Walter Goerlitz a question. 
Herb Kraker
69.221.227.46 (talk) 00:10, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Every user has a talk page. Every article has a talk page as well. You would only usually leave a message for an editor or user on their talk page if it applies only to them. You would only comment on a talk page to discuss something about the article. Talk pages should not be forums for the article though. It sounds like you should probably ask your question here rather than on the my talk page. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

text: Sorry. I misinterpreted Dialogos as a typographical error of dialog', or dialogue. You're referring to http://www.dialogos-studies.com/, which is pretty close to being a self-published site according to WP:V.  It is definitely a public forum and probably isn't a good source. However, if the forums point to a reliable source (book, article published in a peer-review magazine, etc.) then the original information is valid. You may also want to see WP:ELNO. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:05, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Follow-Up on Request for Link to Dialogos Studies 

message: The article stated that defenders of believer's baptism say there is no New Testament statement that links the Mosaic law practice of circumcision with the Christian practice of baptism. This is incorrect, as defenders of infant baptism cite Colossians 2:11-13 as such a statement. Of course, like all Bible verses, this is subject to interpretation, and I tried to word my change to reflect that this verse is cited by infant baptism defenders, not that it is an undeniably clear statement linking the two. The note for the citation provided is after "have claimed" to reflect that the purpose of the citation is to prove that this claim has been made, not to show that the claim is true. --Ginkgo100talk 18:39, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Connection between circumcision and baptism? 

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Upload&wpDestFile=Baptisdcddefefgefefsm_by_immersion.jpg --90.182.221.2 (talk) 06:24, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  image in article is broken or not found 

message: The article looks like it's a mess.  I suggest some sort of outline like this (but argue with me):
It seems to me that the crux of the matter is none other than Covenant Theology, which says that baptism is the church's analog of circumcision.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Washi (talk • contribs) 18:49, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup? 

message: A counterargument for the Col 2:11-13 argument is given as, "Advocates of believer’s baptism counter that the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 was called to clarify circumcision long after the practice of baptism was established." However, for that counterargument to have significance, wouldn't it have to refer to the "practice of infant baptism"? --Ed Brey (talk) 15:35, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Significance of Jerusalem council in Acts 15 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I do not have the time to do so now, so if someone would like to beat me to the punch, please go ahead. The article inconsitent with the spelling baptized/baptised. As specified here, baptized is the correct American English spelling and should be changed accordingly. Samfoe (talk) 01:51, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Baptized, not baptised

message: This entire section is an absolute disaster and needs to be fundamentally rewritten, if not scrapped entirely.  Virtually every patristic source whom the author cited as examples of anabaptist beliefs in the early Church was explicitly in favour of baptising infants.
St. John Chrysostom: “You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members” (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).
St Gregory of Nazianz: “Have you an infant child? Do not let sin get any opportunity, but let him be sanctified from his childhood; from his very tenderest age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Fearest thou the Seal on account of the weakness of nature?”  Gregory Nazianzen, Oration on Holy Baptism, 40:17 (A.D. 381), in NPNF2, 7:365
St Augustine: '“What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).
“The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic” (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).
“Cyprian was not issuing a new decree but was keeping to the most solid belief of the Church in order to correct some who thought that infants ought not be baptized before the eighth day after their birth. . . . He agreed with certain of his fellow bishops that a child is able to be duly baptized as soon as he is born” (Letters 166:8:23 [A.D. 412]).
“By this grace baptized infants too are ingrafted into his [Christ’s] body, infants who certainly are not yet able to imitate anyone. Christ, in whom all are made alive . . . gives also the most hidden grace of his Spirit to believers, grace which he secretly infuses even into infants. . . . It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call baptism salvation and the sacrament of Christ’s Body nothing else than life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture, too. . . . If anyone wonders why children born of the baptized should themselves be baptized, let him attend briefly to this. . . . The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration” (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:9:10; 1:24:34; 2:27:43 [A.D. 412]).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trilobright (talk • contribs) 15:05, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I heartily agree. Most of the material in that section has had "citation needed" templates since March 2014, and the few actual references are to the primary sources, not to reliable secondary sources. I'll wait a few days for someone to supply appropriate references, and if that doesn't happen, will delete the material. Indyguy (talk) 16:40, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I deleted the material. It would be good is someone would add some validly sourced information to replace it. Indyguy (talk) 05:18, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Patristics" 

message: Forced confession should be linked in the article
A forced confession is a confession obtained from a suspect or a prisoner
by means of torture (including enhanced interrogation techniques) or other forms of duress.
Depending on the level of coercion used,
a forced confession is not valid in revealing the truth.
The person being interrogated may agree to the story presented to them
or even make up falsehoods himself
in order to satisfy the interrogator and discontinue his suffering.
--Milahu (talk) 11:34, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  infant baptism = forced confession of faith