Talk:Abraham Lincoln/Archive 1

message: Washington Times reports that a wasp and a rose species were named after him. There's also USS Abraham Lincoln --69.214.227.51 17:49, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What things were named after Lincoln? 

message: Smallpox mentions that Lincoln contracted smallpox in 1863.  Can someone elaborate/work that into the article, if factual (or correct Smallpox if not). 199.8.171.180 22:39, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smallpox? 

message: Go to the bottom of the Talk:George Washington page and look at the honored Americans. Does Lincoln go anywhere in the range from 5 to 10?? 66.245.115.51 00:14, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lincoln's Honor rank 

message: In this article it says Mary Surratt was later proved innocent. Why does it say nothing about that on her page? Munkee 18:12, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it's not true. She wasn't proved innocent. The exact degree of her involvement in the conspiracy is questioned, and some have maintained that she was an innocent "bystander", but the testimony of one of her boarders, Lewis Weichmann, and of John Lloyd, from whom she attempted to obtain "firing irons" implicates her as playing at least some role. Weichmann stood by his testimony on his deathbed in 1902. In 1977, the diary of Georg Atzerodt was found, and it provides evidence that Mary Surratt travelled to Surrattsville on the day of the assassination to check on the weapons. It didn't help Mary Surratt that she lied at her own trial. Anyway, I'll adjust this article to be less "certain" of her innocence. - Nunh-huh 21:56, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Mary Surratt

message: Please read the Wikipedia policy page on Neutral Point of View then ask yourself how this article is or is not in compliance with the policy. For example, after reading about NPOV, take a look at what the article says about the Gettysburg Address, and compare it to what the NPOV page said about how Wikipidia articles are to be written. ChessPlayer 13:13, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. This is one of the usual write-ups that makes Lincoln into a mythological hero. I don't know how it got featured status. 172 02:37, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  As no one is moving to fix this article, I made a small step in the direction of transforming it from a biased article into one consistant with the NPOV policy. I attributed an opinion asserted by the article, that Lincoln was a "masterful politician," to un-named "historians", as I am sure some historians somewhere believe this, so its fact. Still, this is by no means satisfactory, and better yet would be if whoever originally created the claim, stepped forward and cited his sources, attributing the opinion to them, and not the article. ChessPlayer 00:10, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, that's not a glorification of Lincoln. Calling him a "masterful politician" is a value-neutral statement. Stalin, for example, was a deft politician as well, that is when it came to consolidating his own personal power. 172 00:28, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I didn't say it was a glorification. The point is, its an opinion, and articles may not assert opinions, they only may give facts. If opinions are stated, they must be cited with whose opinion they are. ChessPlayer 00:39, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to be adhering to quite an extreme interpretation of NPOV policies. 172 00:41, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

text: I am adhereing to what it states on the policy page; it is not extreme to simply follow what it says. Wikipidia articles can assert facts, but can only attribute opinions, not assert them. I agree with your opinion of Lincoln. I think he was a deft politician. But that doesn't mean we can make the article say that; we do have to follow the rules. There is good reason to, too, it vastly increases the ability of people to cooperate if they don't have to fight over what opinions will be asserted by the article. ChessPlayer 00:52, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: If it helps you sleep better at night, cite historians such as David Herbert Donald and Alan Nevins. 172 01:03, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

text: I agree the http://www.Lewrockwell.com/orig2/lincoln-arch.html link should be listed. It gives the negative side of the story about Lincoln that no one hears about in the media or in government schools. Its very biased, but just imagine if one-hundred years from now the only accepted history is that President Clintion was an honest man or that President Bush invaded Iraq to "free the Iraqies". It's like that in my eyes. Markes15 20:44, 13 December 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Wikisux, if you think the racist quotes should be deleted, could you explain why? Surely the more information in the article, the better? Rosemary Amey 17:04, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Hnnuh? Take a closer look. There's a reason I labeled my edit "remove duplicate section"... unless you think that section is important enough to appear twice in the article, I would recommend you get rid of it again. :-) -- Wikisux 18:28, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind, I took care of it myself. -- Wikisux 03:37, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: D'oh! Sorry about that... Rosemary Amey 04:32, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion of Racist Quotes

message: Contributors to this page may wish to know someone has stolen the content without credit, violating our license. See Wikipedia:Copies of Wikipedia content (low degree of compliance), section Civil-War.ws. You may wish to contact the site at info@civil-war.ws to voice a complaint. Deco 00:40, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Content stolen by Civil War site? 

message: An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the  article, and they have been placed on this page for your convenience. Tip: Some people find it helpful if these suggestions are shown on this talk page, rather than on another page. To do this, just add  to this page. — LinkBot 11:21, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: [[User:LinkBot/suggestions/Abraham Lincoln|Link suggestions]]

message: A Yes vote indicates you agree the current hanlding of Lincoln's sexuality should be left unchanged. 
A No vote indicates that you would prefer some other decision.
[Please Do NOT duscuss here.  Only vote here.  Discuss above, in the section Compromise Solution Discussion]
To vote, find the vote you favor and vote by adding # ~~~~ Below the vote you favor.
Yes
#Jliberty 18:49, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
#gK ¿? 20:08, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vote to maintain the "compromise" solution as is 

message: This article is currently 37KB long. I've made some edits to slim it down from about 42 KB but I'm wondering if the section on Lincoln's assassination should be moved to its own article as well.
Part of the slimming was by moving quotes from letters to Abraham Lincoln on slavery. Someone has listed that for moving to something called Wikiquote. I removed the following quotes from the section on Indians, which I merged with the rest of the section on his Presidency, but couldn't think of anything to do with them and they should maybe move to Wikiquote too:
:Executive Mansion
:December 6th, 1862
:Brigadier General H.H. Sibley
:St. Paul Minnesota:
:
:Ordered that of the Indians and Half-breeds sentenced to be hanged by the military commission, composed of Colonel Crooks, Lt. Colonel Marshall, Captain Grant, Captain Bailey, and Lieutenant Olin, and lately sitting in Minnesota, you cause to be executed on Friday the nineteenth day of December, instant, the following names, to wit [39 names listed by case number of record: cases 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 19, 22, 24, 35, 67, 68, 69, 70, 96, 115, 121, 138, 155, 170, 175, 178, 210, 225, 254, 264, 279, 318, 327, 333, 342, 359, 373, 377, 382, 383]. 
:
:The other condemned prisoners you will hold subject to further orders, taking care that they neither escape, nor are subjected to any unlawful violence. 
:
:Abraham Lincoln, 
:President of the United States
:Saint Paul
:December 27, 1862
:The President of the United States:
:I have the honor to inform you that the thirty-eight Indians and half-breeds ordered by you for execution were hung yesterday at  Mankato at 10 a.m. Everything went off quietly and the other prisoners are well secured. 
:Respectfully, 
:H. H. SIBLEY, Brigadier-General.
I deleted the "Lincoln exhumed" section and created a page entitled Lincoln's Burial and Exhumation to conserve space here. I think this action is appropriate, given that the exhumation section of the old page deals with Lincoln after his life ended, as opposed to Lincoln as an animate human being. As such, the events described actually involve people other than Lincoln, as opposed to Lincoln himself. Additionally, the section is very long and contentious. 
199.111.225.59 15:25, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Size of article 

message: I've been discussing this in a number of places recently. Consensus is that the precise limit of 32K is obsolete, along with the overly-stern automatic warning message. The availability of section editing and the availability of upgrades for the few, seldom-used browsers involved have made it a moot point. Accordingly, the language in the warning template has been softened. There is currently no clear guidance on article size, and no precisely specified limit, which is now a matter of taste and article organization ("summary style") and judgement about page-loading speed and the ease or difficulty of scrolling through long articles. There is absolutely no need to do anything drastic merely because an article is a little over 32K. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:44, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Article size in general: 32K limit is obsolete, don't do anything hasty 

message: I have come across several credible book reviews that seem to completely discredit Tripp's Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln. See: [http://slate.com/id/2112313/ Slate.com review
[http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F05E5D61439F93AA35752C0A9639C8B63 New York Times review
[http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/107koqzy.asp Weekly Standard review.
Basically, it is all unsubstantiated innuendo, not even rising to the level of circumstantial evidence, mixed in with some dubious Kinseyian stuff about kids who hit puberty early getting addicted to masturbation. Historically speaking, it is the equivalent of an urban legend, and its presence on this page tends to discredit the rest of the article. Given that all the evidence relied upon for the Lincoln is gay thesis comes from Tripp's book, I think we should put the discussion exclusively on the Lincoln's Sexuality page and delete the entire paragraph in this article about Lincoln's sexuality. I think such action would help maintain the integrity of this page and slim the length of the article.
: This is a very skewed summary of the reviews of the book. Lincoln is a cultural icon and there is great Resistance to Tripp's thesis, but it is hardly crackpot, and is supported and given high credibility by numerous respected historians, such as Carl Sandburg, Jean Baker and Michael B. Chesson. There is room for debate, but I don't think it is fair to say that it is urban legend.  Further, when evaluating a controversial subject like this, we must be cautious not to embrace those who would iconify Lincoln any more than we give extra weight to the iconoclast. Jliberty 13:21, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)
Yes (delete)
No (keep)
# Jliberty 13:08, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC) - We've been through this too many times. For every article "discrediting" Tripp, there are others, by very credible historians that substantiate it. Nothing substiantial has changed, I reverted the Lincoln page and propose you move the discussion on why the article is not credible to where it belongs Abraham Lincoln's sexuality).
##*I haven't seen any articles by "very credible historians that substantiate it," I'd be more than happy to read one, if you would care to provide a citation as opposed to mentioning it in generic terms. I don't consider Gore Vidal a "very credible historian," however, nor do I consider Larry Kramer a "very credible historian." By the way, why did you revert? All the info. I provided was factual.
::I reverted it because (a) we went around this for weeks and agreed that the article would stay as is, and discussion of its validity would be in Abraham Lincoln's sexuality) and (b) because what you wrote was not NPOV.  - As for credible historians, Carl Sandburg, Jean Baker and Michael B. Chesson are all credible histrians and are mentioned in the Abraham Lincoln's sexuality) article as supporting the thesis that Lincoln was bisexual or gay. Jliberty 19:57, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)
# Tony Sidaway|Talk 15:58, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Your version is probably the best.  Rather than presenting partial arguments on the main page, link to a page with all of the arguments.  Sounds good.  --brian0918™ 05:11, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Vote on Lincoln's Sexuality paragraph 1/18

message: I added the following paragraph, which has been deleted twice by JimWae, though he refuses to specify what he thinks is wrong with it. It is all factually correct and based on the Donald biography. Sometimes it is difficult to accept that heroic politicians are in fact human, but Lincoln's early war record was not particuarly great:
:Lincoln drafted the amendment, a constitutional amendment which eventually passed both houses protecting slavery in those states in which it already existed, but refused to make his authorship public. Lincoln spurned requests to appoint a Southern non-Republican to his cabinet, however, and refused to compromise on the issue of westward expansion of slavery. In the months leading up to the war, Lincoln proved unwilling to confront powerful Radical Republicans in his own party, like Senator Zachariah Chandler of Michigan, Senator Benjamin F. Wade of Ohio, and Illinois Sen. Lyman Trumbull, who advocated a hard-line against the South. Lincoln was so ineffectual during the first months of his presidency that his Secretary of State, William H. Seward, offered to take over presidential duties for a time. Throughout the rest of his presidency Lincoln proved much more willing to defy the wishes of the Radical Republicans. 
~~Please Don't Block
*This "paragraph" is short on content & long on POV. There is ample evidence that Lincoln withstood efforts from Seward to take over (Seward thinking he had more experience). Seward may have interpreted Lincoln as "ineffectual" - but that is still POV in an encyclopedia.
*You have removed the part about Lincoln supporting the Corwin Amendment in his inaugural address
*What's so unusual about not putting members of the (extremely) opposite party (Southern Democrats) in his cabinet?
**Lincoln might have appointed a Southern oppositionist, like John J. Crittenden - the sort who would have supported Bell in 1860. john k 23:36, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paragraph on Lincoln's early presidency & cabinet 

message: James Buchanan was *not* an ambassador; he was minister to Great Britain and Russia. Ambassador is a specific rank, and the United States did not have ambassasors until 1893.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.174.10 (talk) 14:30, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  James Buchanan 

message: PEpe none off this is true me edit 72.231.184.68 (talk) 14:42, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. aboideautalk 14:45, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2019 

message: Born June 23, 1809 Pandalk (talk) 20:42, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Favonian (talk) 20:45, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2019 

message: Some sources I found that could be added for the "assassination" section on the Abraham Lincoln page. These have mentioned by some respected sources, and even a few historians. It is used on MTL's article.
 
“As he died his breathing grew quieter, his face more calm. According to some accounts, at his last drawn breath, on the morning after the assassination, he smiled broadly and then expired. Historians, most notably author Lee Davis have emphasized Lincoln's peaceful appearance when and after he died: "It was the first time in four years, probably, that a peaceful expression crossed his face."Assassinations That Changed The World, History Channel Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Lincoln Administration, Maunsell Bradhurst Field wrote, "I had never seen upon the President's face an expression more genial and pleasing." The President's secretary, John Hay, saw "a look of unspeakable peace came upon his worn features".“
*— Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.18.218.154 (talk) 16:45, October 17, 2019 (UTC)
*I think this material would be better suited to Assassination of Abraham Lincoln#Death of Lincoln. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇  17:38, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request for Abraham Lincoln 

message: Serious folks only, please. This will be a vast undertaking, you will be expected to help significantly throughout the process. You are still welcome to improve the article without being part of the FA Team.
# CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 06:58, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Participants