Talk:Smyrna

message: I am not sure, but wasn't Smyrna controlled by Greece approx 90 or so years after its independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1821? Where is the history of this? Doesn't the link below prove this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greekhistory.GIF  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.175.209.207 (talk) 19:44, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No. This just shows that Smyrna was controlled by the Greeks for a few years after WW I. This is correct. It was Ottoman before that. Like most empires, they had a way of controlling hostility between different people. When empires fall, nationalism replaced it causing the displacement of Greeks who were getting along fine with the Turks just before the war. Student7 (talk) 17:53, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Suzerainity

message: Firstly, why does this article exist under the name Smyrna? It is now İzmir, the history of İzmir should be given there. The whole article is concerned with portraying Greeks as the rightful owners of İzmir until Turks came and "massacred" them. The last section on the burning of İzmir is so POV im surprised its still here.
:I am the one who put the NPOV tag up. Of course, I agree there is a POV problem with the last section. However, the article is neither "terrible" nor is there I believe a question whether it makes sense to have an article on an ancient town called Smyrna. Rl 17:19, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Because nobody wrote one? Rl 11:40, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terrible article 

message: Let's see some translated quotes from current Turkish history textbooks treating the Smyrna affair, in addition to the endless contentions over personal interpretations. Right or wrong,whatever is being taught in Turkish secondary schools is genuinely informative for the neutral Wikipedia reader. --Wetman 21:32, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Turkish textbooks

message: I have removed inflammatroy language, tried to rewrite in a neutral way as possible. Please feel free to expand but remember history is never black and white.  --E.A 19:58, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Burning of Smyrna 

message: There is only one book that really study the cases of the fire in Smyrna, and it is her book. Neither Horton or Kinross covering of the fire are authoritative books, this being the cases, it requires that her book have its own place in the article, separated from others. The same way I have given McCarthy, his own section in the Armenian population entry. Besides, it is also known that Kinross after reading her work has changed his own version of the event. The book itself also contains Turkish accounts, including two groundbraking, one of which, from a close confident of Ataturk. It also contains statments of authorities from the fire department and elsewhere. Bristol himself forced some witnesses to change their version of the story, as a part in the Chestler and son consession that never materialized.
Besides, E.A., there are various reports of massacres of Armenians in Smyrna, many included in Dobkins book. Reports of rapes and various other crimes. Those crimes were to happen before, had German general Sander didn't pressurized the Turkish authorities with threat of German military intervention, if the plan of the evacuation of the Armenians of Smyrna was to be put in applications, because it was seriously interupting German war efforts. 
The crimes later were extended against the Greeks, Ali §ukrü the deputy from Trabzon, even managed to extend those measure on the other side of the empire, pointing on how regretful was that the measures against the Armenians were not extended to the Greeks when they had the occasion. Repeated by the disgusting allusions of the minister of finance, Hasan Fehmi, who compared on how successful resolution of the Armenian "question" with the failure of the Greek one.
While this entry is about Smyrna, I don't see how both side massacres, could be presented as equaly extensive, when the entire Greek and Armenian quarters were destroyed, looted, vanished, while the Turkish quarter was left intact to later form İzmir. Be precise here please. Fadix 23:18, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dobkin's book

message: The reference to Prentiss without mentioning that he changed his version after after being instructed by his superiors to do just that, because new blames on the Turkish side would have placed seriously in danger the various new contracts signed.
Prentiss actually say having witnessed, with many of his colleagues, that it was the Turkish soldiers that burned the city. In September 18, 1922, his report of the situation was published in the New-York Times. Here is what he had to say:
"Many of us personally saw-and are ready to affirm the statement-Turkish soldiers often directed by officers throwing petroleum in the streets and houses. Vice-Consul Barnes watched a Turkish officer leisurely fire the Custom House and the Passport Bureau while at least fifty Turkish soldiers stood by. Major Davis saw Turkish soldiers throwing oil in many houses. The Navy patrol reported seeing a complete horsehoe of fires started by the Turks around the American school." 
After being criticized by his superior, 2 days later, he answer with a new statment accuzing the Greeks for having exasperated the Turks, which has caused the fire.
"The burning of Smyrna will rank as the world's greatest tragedy, and it is likely historians will divide the responsibility. The
Greek action in arming civilians, together with prolonged and extensive sniping, exasperated the Turks beyond their officers'
control. The officers exerted an effort to maintain order and establish a record for peaceful occupation."
This did not satisfy still his superior, and a week after this second article, he praised the Turks, for the way they were dealing with the refugees.
But I guess Adm. Bristol(US High Commissioner at the American Embassy in Istanbul), was not satisfied, the same that has barred access to many cites of Armenian massacres and forced American witnesses to change their versions in various occasions, the protector of American contracts, the Chestler consession(See: Simpson, Christopher. "The Splendid Blond Beast: Money, Law, and Genocide in the Twentieth Century", for more information about this, as well as "Starving Armenians: America and the Armenian Genocide, 1915-1930 and After" by Merrill D. Peterson . So Prentess was consulted to write about a story changing the entire American version of the events, the story was sent to Bristol, in a form of a manuscript to be published in Jan. 11, 1923, which has gone as far as to propose a version in which Armenians were in Turkish military uniforms, burning their own quarter. And what we have here? In this entry we have the last version of his. Fadix 01:02, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If its wrong, change it Fadix, just keep it neutral. --E.A 19:52, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prentiss was forced to change his account 

message: There are absolute no reason under any Wikipedia rules to delete such a sentence. There are abount number of articles containing such terms and even worst. It is a quotation and should have remained there. Please clarify under which Wikipedia principle it was deleted. Fadix 16:03, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The article already informs the reader "Her assessment is that the city was ravaged and destroyed by Turkish troops under the noses of Allied ships", anything beyond that is worthless graphic description, the kind you would not see in any respectable encyclopedia. --E.A 16:34, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't know that quoting someone was not done in a serious encyclopedia. Be it a graphic description or not, it is her words and I really can see why they should be deleted. Fadix 16:37, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why should we quote the attrocities done by Turks, and not those done by Greeks? (which i could quote plentifully). --E.A 16:49, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is an entry about Smyrna, nearly the entire Greek and Armenian community left the place. The Turks were attempting to remove the Armenians from there, back in 1915, when General Sanders put an end to it. Later, the cities Greek and Armenian population was just forced to leave, there are countless report of massacres and rapes in Dobkins book, and she only write what was there. What happened elsewhere by the Turkish or Greek forces, outside of Smyrna, is irrelevent in this entry, what happened in Smyrna thouth, there was a clear disproportion between what the Greeks have done, and what the Turks have done. You can not misrepresent it as if a tequaly sided massacre is supported there. I really don't see how you can do that. Fadix 16:56, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It was the trail of destruction the Greek army left behind them, which the Turkish army witnessed during its chase that played a massive role in what happened when the Turks entered Smyrna, it has everything to do with what happened. Thats what Kinross was referring to when he said the population of Smyrna feared reprisals for what the Greek army had done. --E.A 17:01, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Entire villages in the entire Anatolia were burned to the ground, as a way to prevent Armenians that survived to return in their homes. I don't see how, in the section of the burning, there should be a justification by alluding to what the Greeks have done elsewhere, when mass burnings such as the Armenian quarter of Marash, and entire Armenian villages in the East weren't the result of anything. Smyrnas fire is considered to only be equaled with the burning of Rome, I don't see how one can take an equal spaces to developpe other instances of massacres and burnings, with those that have actually happened in Smyrna(the subject of this entry). And such policies are actualy Wikipedia principles, while the deletion of a quote is not. The Turkish quarter was left untouched, while the Greek and Armenian quarters were burned to the ground, and you are here wanting equal coverages. Am I missing something? Fadix 17:14, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't think that you are realizing it. Smyrna fire led to the evacuation of the hundreds of thousands of people, the fire was seen hundreds of kilometers around; There is no precedent for Smyrna, other than the legendary fire of Rome. The number of victims alone in few days in Smyrna exceed the Greeks retreating crimes. You want to delete a quote about Smyrna, because Greeks commited crimes elsewhere. I don't understand still your logic. Fadix 18:10, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh and, what do you say that I quote the burning of Armenian villages too? Don't you see how your point doesn't make sense? Fadix 18:11, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Fadix, as i have said, no respectable source will give graphic details of attrocities, especially when the Greeks played such a big part in provoking the acts of Turkish soldiers. --E.A 18:29, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You said the same about the Turkish government denial, while it was covered in Universalis encyclopedia, as well as the Encyclopdia of Genocides and various others. Quotation is permitted and is part of Wikipedias sourcing notes. Fadix 19:08, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Deleting of killed and raped sentence 

message: Wetman, why did you remove the Kinross reference? I have explained above why i dont find rape and killed sentences necessary to include. --A.Garnet 13:58, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My edit summary: restoring suppressed quote cited from published historian --Wetman 20:04, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but if your accusing me of suppresing a reference from a published historian, why would you do the same with my reference? --A.Garnet 20:26, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: FAO Wetman

message: Please see the Talk:İzmir page to discuss the proposed page merger. Tedernst 04:40, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  merger 

message: This page's historical side should be removed to İzmir and baseless propaganda side should be deleted.There is only one İzmir and all of them must be included it.If you write "Londinium" at "search",you will see "see the History of London".So,justice to terms please...
-Inanna-
Inanna, you will see on the Talk:İzmir page that I agree with you that the Smyrna and İzmir pages should be merged. I also agree that propaganda doesn't belong here, from any side: Turkish, Greek, or Armenian.
As for the specific figures you are inserting, two points:
* You mention that they are from an "Ottoman census", but don't give its date or any sources to verify them.
* You remove figures from other sources.  Wikipedia believes in NPOV, that is, if there are multiple good-quality sources which are contradictory, Wikipedia reports all of them.  
It is perfectly possible in this case that both the Ottoman census figures and western figures (Encyclopedia Britannica, 1911 says "Pop. more than 250,000, of which fully a half is Greek") are distorted for various reasons -- different definitions, political preferences, etc.  Unless we find some good evidence that one figure is more reliable than the other, we need to include the whole range, and cite the specific sources. --Macrakis 03:29, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This page should be removed 

message: Smyrna and İzmir are one and the same place, but two different subjects, and I would be against merging. Without going into who-first-massacred-whom debates: Smyrna  once was a largely Greek city on the coast of Asia Minor, İzmir now is a modern Turkish city. The story of Smyrna ended in 1922; but until then it had its own story, and that story is worth telling in its own right. To take a different, less emotional case: because the modern city of New York eventually absorbed and in effect replaced the old Dutch city of New Amsterdam, should New Amsterdam as a subject in its own right be wiped out? Wikipedia has entries for both NY and New Amsterdam, and nobody appears to be complaining...
Charadras 22:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Constantinople and Istanbul Chaldean 06:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  And Byzantium and New Rome on top of those.  Anyway, it should be interesting to note that Smyrna was called İzmirni or İzmir by Turkish speakers for centuries before the war.  And, as I understand it, though Istanbul and Ankara retain their traditional Greek names in Greece, I've seen modern İzmir written as Ιζμιρ, though I don't know if this is a synonym for the city or descriptive of İzmir province. - Gilgamesh 07:15, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Smyrna" and "İzmir": same place,  different subjects 

message: I've noticed that there is a heading for the lydian, hellenistic and byzantine periods of the city, but not one that says "ancient greek", referring to the archaic and classical periods. Those are covered in the introductory paragraph. It seems that someone wants to bypass this period, or at least undermine it. I suggest that we made a short introductory paragraph and then move to the list as follows: 1. Ancient greek Smyrna 2. Lydian Smyrna etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.54.194.103 (talk) 00:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't get me wrong, I think most certainly the article needs more work with regards to the ancient periods. I just don't think we need to source that it was an ancient Greek city- it looks really odd. I mean, will anyone really question that it was an ancient Greek city if we don't source it in the middle of a sentence? Not me, that's for sure... if it wasn't entirely ancient Greek, then we can go into it after the intro. The intro is essentially a summing up, and so we should include civilizations in order that lived there to be correct. :) Monsieurdl (talk) 17:42, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  No mention of the word "Greek" 

message: so it must be a ghost town of Tsmurna that Hittites were taxing  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.100.16.8 (talk) 17:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Founded by Ionians? 

message: A line suggests that Smyrna vied with Ephesus and Pergamum for "Second City" status. The article on Ephesus suggests otherwise. It is not well documented. Really needs to be resolved sometime. We need a scholarly reference from somewhere to solve this once and for all. BTW, I rather suspect there is some validity to Ephesus' claim over Smyrna and Pergamum, but there may have been other contenders over Ephesus. Student7 (talk) 19:57, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestion of prominence second only to Rome

message: I am adding two non-English sources, one in German, the other in French. The first one could be particularly useful since it provides the principal references based on solid scholarly ground on the ancient city of Smyrna, namely German, French, British and Turkish sources (Literatur zu Smyrna). Such ground takes at least a hundred years to construct. I also suggest we remove the link included here to the 20th century British businessman and designer of cars. Cretanforever (talk) 17:43, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Two sources

message: Böri (talk) 08:15, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Pretty much goatfields until Alexander conquered it, right? Not much history there. Student7 (talk) 13:19, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

text: map(450 BC): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Athenian_empire_atheight_450_shepherd1923.png Smyrna was under the Persian rule at that time... Böri (talk) 07:45, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it was under Persian rule. But what affect did this have on the local goatherders or whatever were in the region? There was no city! "The Persians told the goatherders to (what)? And the goatherders did {what?)." Not too exciting, I fear. Maybe the Persians stole a goat now and then. That was probably the extent of local news. Student7 (talk) 18:40, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  No mention of the Persian rule! 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Smyrna. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090306010724/http://cipa.icomos.org/fileadmin/papers/antalya/114.pdf to http://cipa.icomos.org/fileadmin/papers/antalya/114.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 08:51, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Particularly noted the lack of references in the sections on the Hellenistic period.  Also y'all its a wikipedia article not an assault on Mustafa Kemal himself/the idea of Greekness wow  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tmhaycraft (talk • contribs) 17:26, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Several sections are lacking in sources 

message: Hi, While reading article "Elli Pappa (1920-2009), Greek writer and activist", the infobox shows born at Smyrna. Would it be Okay to create "Notable people" section and begin with Elli Pappa article? This section has to start somewhere, & wondering if anyone else can contribute more people? JoeNMLC (talk) 19:15, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say first let's resolve the problem of the content. A notable person that late would have to go in Izmir even though he is Greek. For almost a thousand years Izmir had both Greeks and Turks (in addition to the English and others). Botteville (talk) 02:05, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable people, add section? 

message: I tried my best to read through this commentary. Goodness gracious, can you deutsche folk keep the uproar down? I've heard from most of you at one time or another. The one legitimate comment by a person named student something pointed out a content inaccuracy that amidst all the shouting has not been addressed. According to the sources, Smyrna was a Carian city. The Aeolians took it. Then the Ionians got it. They worked out an agreement whereby the Aeolians abandoned it. Then along came the Lydians eager to take it back. Ionian Smyrna put up such a good fight that Gyges couldn't take it. The Cimmerians then interceded. Gyges' great grandson Alyattes finally dealt with them and in retaking Ionia decided to raze Smyrna. We don't know why but we can guess. The decision stood for 400 years. That is why they aren't too significant for the Medes and Persians. They weren't there any more. Here we have to put up with editorial guessing. New Smyrna and Old Smyrna developed simultaneously he/she says. What about the 400 years of no Smyrna at all? Goodness gracious, great balls of fire.
I notice someone went ahead and created Old Smyrna. That sort of pushed Smyrna into New Smyrna. But we can't call it that now. However, the transition was not complete. There are still two big sections of an Old Smyrna. I propose to move those to Old Smyrna, which barring a serious discussion to the contrary, I will do. 
I propose also to add the source material and correct the inaccuracies. As for Smyrna, it seems to me from 200 BC to 1922 is a pretty long, tedious time. I suggest these modern events have their own articles. I don't know if I'll be interested. I'm on Ionia and poleis right now. However it may be, I suggest you roaring Germans, Turks and Greeks, or whoever else may enjoy a good roar, move it all to Facebook or some other cage in the zoo but here. I'm still at the level of President Wilson and Mustafa Kemal working through the long nights to try and solve the problem. Go somewhere else.Botteville (talk) 01:27, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: No obections so far. I see this is one large topic, bigger than I thought. OK, no sense crying about it. First, no one understands "Old Smyrna." Second, there are two wikidata infoboxes for old smyrna. Third, there are 3 aticles covering the same smyrna: Old Smyrna, Smyrna, Izmir. They are not adequately distinguished. You are likely to find Smyrna material of any type in all three articles. I would say, the content has gotten out of control. There are pictures to consider as well as text. My concept of a proper division is, Old Smyrna=Strabo's Old Smyrna plus the subsequent village period. Smyrna=Hellenistic up to occupation by the Seljuk Turks. Izmir=Turkish Smyrna. There ought not to be parallel modern Greek and Turkish Smyrnas. I think a time division will do fine. It is a lot of work. I will start slow and work on it gradually. You shouldn't have to look in three article to read about archaic Smyrna.Botteville (talk) 00:26, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I went ahead and moved most of the Old Smyrna material to Old Smyrna. But, there is a problem at the other end. The artcle wants to talk extensively about modern Izmir. We should be putting that in Izmir. This article should end with the entry of the Seljuks. I will eventually get to it. Right now I'm sorting out the more ancient periods.Botteville (talk) 01:59, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal to move material