Talk:Equine conformation

message: Thanks to the authors for this marvellous article!
Just to improve it a little:
* add some sources (I guess, you have many!)
* consider posting pictures into Commons (I'd like to use lots of them!) and using thumbnails into the articleAlex brollo 07:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Some suggestions

message: I think an initial section on "form to function" needs to be added here, right after the introduction.  I am importing some material form the horses in warfare article that addresses this issue, and then will edit it around to better fit this article.  Feel free to dive into this sandbox and add useful information.  And beware: My gaze is turning to this article, bold edits may be imminent! (grin) Montanabw 23:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Sandbox 

message: Hello,
I'm not really good at this whole Wikipedia thing.  I don't know anything about horses (but I'm learning a lot!  thank you!)...
But..
"Calf-Kneed/Back at the Knee [29][30]"
Link 29, up there lead to what looked to be some sort of promotion for a website of some sort--a today.com--complete with an overly narrow human waist with a measuring tape. 
This is obviously not what was intended--I'd edit things myself to fix it, but have no clue how to, and may just muck things up.
So I'm doing the next best thing, and letting you wiki-savvy horse people take care of it. :)
Oh, there are a number of 'page not found' links as well, though I sadly did not note those while I was browsing.
68.220.228.219 21:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Advertisement on page 

message: I think the article should be divided into more sections to make it easier to make minor changes and read but i thought id ask. and although this is a stupid question is it barrel or barre im pretty sure its barrel Dog jumper100 03:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, barrel, the rib cage area, yes.  See horse anatomy if you need to cross-check.  This conformation article is, frankly, a mess, and a mess so big I haven't had the guts to tackle it yet, myself.  It probably needs a reorganization from top to bottom.  You can try adding some more headers and see if it makes things better or worse.  The horse anatomy articles also are all over the place; there are separate articles about some parts, such as the withers or horse hoof, but not much about others...and nothing is very well cross-linked.  There is much to do, and only a few of us to do it.  If you can organize existing content, give it a shot. Montanabw 04:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: more sections

message: Statement: The dished face is a feature common to the Arabian horse.
Statement: A roman nose is a feature common to the Clydesdale.
Statement: The features of the Arabian horse were in place before humans began artificially selecting them.
Statement: The features of the Clydesdale were in place before humans began artificially selecting them.
Therefore, does it not seem reasonable that the dished face of the Arabian horse exists as a result of the proto-Arabian horse being modeled to suit a desert climate? Does it not also seem reasonable that the distinctively un-dished face of the Clydesdale exists for the same reasons, but for a cold, moist climate?
If the basic tenets of animal physiology hold up for horses, as they most certainly do, then the differences in facial structure between breeds with a long association with cold/damp vs. arid climates have little, if anything, to do with the type of work they are doing and much more to do with heat and water loss.
Firstly, I do not think it's unreasonable to suppose that the small cross-sectional area of the typically-Arabian face (which may be or may have been narrow without necessarily being "dished") allows for better dissipation of heat, especially in the face, where blood vessels are close to the surface. By the same logic, it is also not unreasonable to think that the large, "lymphatic" head of the Clydesdale and similar cold-climate horses allows for better retention of heat. 
Secondly, I have never heard before that sinus size had anything to do with the amount of air it was possible to take in; only that sinus size is related to the animal's ability to warm air before sending it to the lungs, or dump heat into exhaled air. 
Food for thought.
Countercanter 23:37, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This whole article has a need for a lot of work.  What it needs most, however, is citation material.  My thinking is that the whole darn thing needs some simplification and a rewrite.  I don't disagree that certain conformation features were dictated by climate long before domestication of the horse, and of course, form to function.  My take is that if you see some things to rewrite and improve, please do so, but be careful to be NPOV and avoid too much breed discussion if at all possible (just to avoid edit wars, if for no other reason).  This article has long been on my "gotta get around to improving this one" list, but it's a daunting project.  You want to take it on, I doubt anyone will complain about good quality work!  Montanabw(talk) 04:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dished Faces

message: I was thinking that it might (1) be more digestible, (2) be more accurate to separate "universal" faults from "traits." This of course begs the question of how one decides what a "universal" fault is. I think a good measuring stick would be a trait that unequivocally impairs the horse's health. From what I can see, that includes:
* overshot/undershot jaw
* crooked legs
* faulty hooves
It seems to me that these things ought to come first in the article. Certainly before the head! I've never ridden a horse's head.
I also think statements like "The ideal neck is about 1/3 horse's length" are not especially helpful. Says who? Why? What's this magic number from? Is it just because it "looks nice," kind of like the reason I don't wear horizontal stripes? Perhaps, instead, we might structure the neck like so:
Neck
The neck of the horse comprises 7 cervical vertebrae. The 1st cervical vertebra attaches to the back of the skull and the 7th attaches to the 1st dorsal vertebra just anterior to the scapula. The windpipe and esophagus run the ventral side of the neck, under the jugular groove. The neck of the horse contains all the muscles that allow the horse to raise, lower, and swing the head side to side.
Length
(I might use Przewalski-Pferd Porträt.jpg with the caption "The neck of this wild horse species would be considered short by most horse enthusiasts")
I don't think I'd quantify what a "short" or "long" neck was. The whole horizontal stripes deal is a trick of visual harmony; so is neck length. It looks harmonious. And nobody needs to be told that the pieces of the horse need to fit together. So I might write something like this:
A horse with a neck that is too short in comparison with his legs may not be able to comfortably reach the ground to graze. In these cases, the horse will splay its forelegs to reach down, and usually will develop a preference for which leg goes forward. Over time, this preference may translate to unevenness in the muscles and even bones of the legs, affecting hoof wear.
The walk, canter and jump of a horse rely on the horse's ability to telescope the neck out and down as a counter-weight. A neck that does not have sufficient mass relative to its body may detract from the quality of the walk, canter, and jump.
Conversely, a horse with a neck that is too long may be difficult to get "round." Instead of working through the bridle, long-necked horses may simply arch the neck and come behind the bit. An excessively long neck may increase the horse's tendency to carry its weight on the forehand. The mass of the head is further from the body, and inertia may make it harder for long-necked horses to spin and stop quickly. Like a suspension bridge, the muscles and ligaments in an excessively long neck may be strained. Roaring frequently occurs in long-necked horses, possibly resulting from injury to a long laryngeal nerve.
[] for the bit on roaring.
I might also go on to say that in breeds and types where the jump and canter are less important, necks may be shorter. Do cutting/reining horses tend to have shorter necks? I made an inference on the long necked vs. spin/stop bit; just seems like the laws of physics to me, but I'll have to find a source.
Thoughts, anybody? I really don't approve of all the non-sequitor in horse conformation, and I'd like to see certain parts of conformation represented for what they are: it's pleasing to the eye and makes the horse marketable, which has no more rational "oomph" behind it than wearing a black dress.
Countercanter (talk) 16:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm.  Your idea of breaking out what are universal flaws from breed traits desirable in one breed but not another has some merit, but it also could start edit wars if not handled very carefully.   I am strongly of the opinion that there is sort of a universal base of what good conformation is, with deviations from that base that reflect form to function. (No, in fact, cutting and reining horses do NOT necessarily have "short"necks, in fact, it's a flaw, though their neck may not be as long as that of some warmbloods or saddlebreds-- (a powerfully muscled rear end with those bulky fast twitch muscles, however, is a must)-- actually, if you take the high-action trotting breeds, long necks tend to be favored, at least with critters such as saddlebreds).  To me, all good horses will have correct leg conformation, solid musculature, proper shoulder and hip angles (with some variations-- a jumper has a slightly different ideal shoulder angle than does a draft horse or, in the opposite direction, a flat-racing racehorse, for example) and so on.  We can pull the basics from almost any general text.   What I would do is pull together several good reference sources and see if there is a common scheme to the content layout (some start with the head just because it's the first thing people see...head to toe, so to speak.   I have about six books on conformation sitting in my library, including that nice little three volume set by Deb Bennett that is quite nicely done, but whenever I get to dragging them out to source this article, I just get discouraged because the thing is such a mess.  This article really needs to just be wiped and started over.  Perhaps we need to create a "sandbox" off of this talk page (an archive of sorts would work) to play around with stuff.  Montanabw(talk) 22:42, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to structure this article? 

message: Here is a list of sources. Please add to it!
Evans, K. E., McGreevy, P.D. "Conformation of the Equine Skull: A Morphometric Study." Anatomia, Histologia, Embryologia: Journal of Veterinary Medicine Series C; Aug2006, Vol. 35 Issue 4, p221-227.
Offers standardized procedures for skull measurements of living and deceased horses. Compares the head structure of Arabians, Thoroughbreds, and Standardbreds.
Crevier-Denoix, N. et al. "Comparison of the Comformation of 20 International Level and the 20 Low Level Jumping Horses Using a 3-D Video Morphometric Measurement Method." Anatomia, Histologia, Embryologia: Journal of Veterinary Medicine Series C; Dec2005 Supplement 1, Vol. 34, p13-13.
The one-page summary was in a supplement to the journal itself, and only states that statistically significant differences were found in 132 conformation parameters. If anyone can find the results of this study, that'd be fabulous! The facilities associated with the study are: 
UMR INRA-ENVA de Biomécanique et Pathologie Locomotrice du Cheval (BPLC) - Ecole Nationale Vétérinaire d'Alfort - 7, avenue du Général de Gaulle 94704 Maisons-Alfort cedex, France
Association Nationale des éleveurs de chevaux de race Selle Français, 7 rue d'Athènes 75009 Paris, France
UMR 181 INRA-ENVT, Ecole Vétérinaire de Toulouse, France
Génétique Quantitative, Centre INRA de Castanet-Tolosan, Toulouse, France
Département Hippique, Centre d'Enseignement Zootechnique de Rambouillet, France
Dutto, Darren J., Hoyt, Donald F., Cogger, Edward A., Wickler, Steven J. "Ground reaction forces in horses trotting up an incline and on the level over a range of speeds." Journal of Experimental Biology; Sep2004, Vol. 207 Issue 20, p3507-3514.
Key statement: "On the level, over the range of speeds tested, total force was consistently distributed between the limbs as 57% forelimb and 43% hindlimb, similar to the weight distribution of the horses during static weight tests. On the incline, the force distribution during locomotion shifted to 52% forelimb and 48% hindlimb."
Wilson, Alan M., McGuigan, M. Polly, Su, Anne, van den Bogert, Anton J. "Horses damp the spring in their step." Nature; 12/20/2001-12/27/2001, Vol. 414 Issue 6866, p895.
I actually need to read this one thoroughly, but from my basic understanding, it states that a horse's gallop is made more efficient by storing energy in the spring-like leg structures. However, galloping makes the leg structures vibrate at a frequency that can seriously damage hard structures.
"Effect of toe and heel elevation on calculated tendon strains in the horse and the influence of the proximal interphalangeal joint." By: Lawson, Siân E. M.; Chateau, Henry; Pourcelot, Philippe; Denoix, Jean-Marie; Crevier-Denoix, Nathalie. Journal of Anatomy, May2007, Vol. 210 Issue 5, p583-591.
Radiographic Assessment of Equine Interphalangeal Joints Asymmetry: Articular Impact of Asymmetric Bearings (Part II).  By: Caudron, I.; Grulke, S.; Farnir, F.; Aupaix, R.; Serteyn, D.. Journal of Veterinary Medicine Series A, Sept98, Vol. 45 Issue 6/7, p327.
"This study is part of a work to develop a radiographic method that defines objectively the individual conformation of an equine digit and its appropriate trimming. The authors used isolated distal limbs fastened on a rotation support with variable inclinations to study the influence of induced asymmetric bearings on various angles measured from specific radiographs. The digit responded to asymmetric bearings by 1. deformation of the hoof; 2. rotation of the phalanges; and 3. joint asymmetry or local articular space narrowing. The two last situations occured mainly in the distal interphalangeal joint. Some of the angles mentioned above allow quantification of interphalangeal articular asymmetry, angular deformity and rotational deviation of a distal limb."
[] Sport Horse Conformation And The Breeder, by Dr. Robert Baird. 
[] Specialization for Riding Horses. Secondary source, but the KWPN/Dutch do a great deal of research on how to identify and breed horses with certain talents. Essentially it details the natural way in which jumper-breeding and dressage-breeding drifted apart, and how over successive generations, the disparities between certain traits in either type have gotten larger. This suggests that the ideal jumper and ideal dressage horse look and move differently.
The most substantial conformation differences were: jumpers tend to have a balanced, powerful and completely rhythmical canter. This is probably because the jump is mechanically like the canter step. A horse that can change the size of his canter stride easily, remaining balanced, can do the same over fences. That trait is called "scope." The other big differences were that dressage horses had higher-set necks and more sloping shoulders. The first quality makes self-carriage easier, and the second contributes to foreleg mechanics. Jumpers tended to have a shorter croup and more obtuse angle in the hock. Taken together, we might say that jumpers tend to have a straighter hind leg. This I did not find entirely surprising, either. We find straighter hind legs in Thoroughbreds; it contributes to the gallop by making the limb longer and increasing the stride. To jump, the horse must also place the hind leg far underneath the body. And, as I mentioned, the jump is mechanically like the gallop.
[] This website, while perhaps not a suitable source for an encyclopedia article, is well-reasoned and informative.
I also have tons of articles about the biomechanics of jumping. I haven't had time to read them all. There is a ton of research going on, especially now that we have computer models.
Countercanter (talk) 01:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What we need to do is to properly footnote whatever we use.  My contributions are more general works:
*Edwards, Gladys Brown Anatomy and Conformation of the Horse
*Bennett, Deb.  Principles of Conformation Analysis vols I-III
*Engler, Sherrie. Horse Conformation: Structure, Soundness, and Performance Equine Research, 2004
*Harris, Susan E.  The USPC Guide to Conformation, Movement and Soundness
What I am wondering is if what has to happen is to make the conformation article a general overview, with breakout sections to, for example, a separate article on the biomechanics of jumping.  My thinking is that I know a lot of kids read these articles, so it makes sense to me to make the lead article sort of simple and general, and then spin off additional articles for people who want more detail.
Also, if you haven't found it yet, check out Horse anatomy and particularly its spin off, Skeletal system of the horse, we don't want to overlap too much and want to be sure to cross-link when needed.  (I REALLY LIKE the idea of a separate article on biomechanics of movement in the horse, it could also be cross-linked from horse gait)
All for now.  Montanabw(talk) 06:40, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Points of the Horse by Capt. M Horace Hayes. I look at this artle and wince, as so much of it it unref POV and many of the links are dead. I don't have any answers though. Cgoodwin (talk) 04:49, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Source. Will edit soon, or someone else can have at it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Countercanter (talk • contribs) 17:56, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting.  This whole article is such a disaster, but if individual sections can be cleaned up, that's a start.  I say "gopher" it!  Montanabw(talk) 03:58, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Study shows that a wide throatlatch is not correlated with performance ability 

message: When discussing the head and legs, we like to talk about a horse having "dry" features. I don't really know what the opposing condition is, other than perhaps "fleshy". This is a legitimate part of the discussion. Going back before globalization, we find dry features in horses from arid climates. One writer described it as being due to lymphatic differences? Anyways it seems to me, and to others, that "dryness" gets the blood flow near the skin to help dissipate heat, while fleshiness helps insulate the blood from external cold. Both are adaptive (surface area to volume!) One thing I've noticed is that breed standards tend to call for dry features even if the breed is not from an arid climate. So do we find dry features more appealing? Countercanter (talk) 15:46, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dry vs. ? 

message: There are a number of terms on this page that are not familiar (at least not to me) and are not defined. References could be added in-line, but maybe a Definitions section would be clearer. Two examples are "cannon" and "crest". There is a redirect page on wikipedia for "cannon" that leads to "Equine forelimb anatomy#Metacarpal bones" which could be used, but I cannot find anything on wikipedia to tell me exactly what "crest" means.  Donimo (talk) 02:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Horse jargon is often mystifying, my sympathies.  We probably should wikilink these terms to equine anatomy in general or add the parts of the horse chart from that article here.  (FYI, the "crest" is basically the topline of the neck).  This whole article needs a rewrite, frankly, and none of us at WPEQ have the gumption to tackle it because it's such a huge project to do it right, with proper sourcing and all.  I only have five books on the topic, but the time?  Um... Maybe in the interim a few links will be better than nothing.  Montanabw(talk) 05:27, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Undefined Terms

message: I went to look at mare for sale and when i looked at her teeth i noticed she had an underbite. She is super well bred and I was wondering what the chances are of her passing this on to her foals. I was also thinking about using her for barrel racing. What health/riding problems does an underbite cause.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.221.186.38 (talk) 05:50, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, this isn't a chat board but just this once I'll comment.  First, underbites and overbites often are genetic, just like in people, so yes.  However, maybe there are other causes, so the best solution is to consult with a vet, and if you are interested in breeding, look at the sire, the dam, and any offspring of either one.  Underbites may cause problems with the horse when carrying a bit, and again, a veterinarian is the one who can say for sure.  There may also be future problems with tooth wear that require specialized equine dentistry.  Sounds like the answer to your question is "get a vet to do a prepurchase examination and pay particular attention to her teeth."   Montanabw(talk) 06:12, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  underbite 

message: A recent edit to this article seems to be using large chunks of material from Heather Smith Thomas's Horse Conformation Handbook (). This may be plagiarism or copyright violation. If any reader has a copy of the book, please could they check how closely the article text matches the original words? Thanks - Pointillist (talk) 14:05, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've got a copy of the book, it may be a few days before I can dig into this.  In the meantime, I encourage those who have been editing the article to start footnoting their additions properly.  Montanabw(talk) 02:12, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've left notes for both the recent new account and the most recent IP (the one who added the last big chunk of information, as well as some other info a couple of days ago), so hopefully they will read both those messages and the above question. To them: If you have any questions, please feel free to post here - as you can see, there are several editors who are more than willing to help in your project! Dana boomer (talk) 04:05, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: My humble opinion (and has been for months, if not years) is that this whole article ought to be trashed and rewritten from scratch.  However, as I hate it when people treat me like The Little Red Hen, and ask me to do work they aren't willing to do, I've hesitated to propose it unless I was willing to actually to the work.  However...?  Any helpers???  Montanabw(talk) 23:34, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I will do what I can~, as the article is a total mess as it now stands. Cgoodwin (talk) 21:49, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If you make a sandbox, invite us! I can also recommend some good stuff from the warmblood studbook selection standards that I think is still on the web...Just FYI.  ;-)  Montanabw(talk) 23:46, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  *crickets* I'll try to help too, although I don't know how much I'll be able to add sourcing-wise. Probably more on the copyediting, formatting and MOS end. Dana boomer (talk) 03:21, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You will be worth your weight in gold on helping with image licensing stuff.  Maybe start with throwing out the bad ones that are already in there?  Montanabw(talk) 03:47, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Material by Heather Smith Thomas

message: I see I have been bitching about the low quality of this article since 2007, so I guess it's time for me to put up or shut up.  The recent spate of anonymous IP edits are well-intentioned, but are not actually improving the article, they are just contributing to the unsourced mess that it already is, deleting existing links, etc.  So, seeing as how a fix could be a long time developing, I've created the following sandbox User:Montanabw/Conformation sandbox and we can use it as a blank slate to recreate the entire article from scratch, with sources cited up the wazoo, and appropriate (i.e. cropped and properly licensed) images.  Everyone have at it.  Could take awhile, but let's just get 'er done!  Montanabw(talk) 20:05, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article un-improvement, made a sandbox 

message: Seems to be prevalent in Quarters. :File:Cricket Headshot.jpg would be useful for illustration. --Pitke (talk) 13:54, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Short head 

message: Here and in most conformation articles high withers are listed as a fault. I've always thought of them as a good thing, though, because they anchor the saddle onto the horse's back. High withers are also an established trait for many breeds, such as the Arabian, Saddlebred and Tennessee Walker. Is treating high withers like a fault why there are so many downhill, mutton withered horses out there today?  White Arabian mare (talk) 18:04, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Too high or too low each can cause problems, just different problems.  Each can create difficulties to fit saddles properly...  Montanabw(talk) 03:44, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

text: Oh, no argument there!  This article really sucks, I've been sandboxing a very slow-moving improvement effort here:  User:Montanabw/Equine conformation sandbox.  It's been languishing for years, but it is needed. (the problem is sourcing everything to proper sources, which is time-consuming even though I've got a zillion books in my home library and more sources on the net).  Montanabw(talk) 22:19, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are high withers a fault? 

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I have just modified 4 external links on Equine conformation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051212103646/http://www.gypsyhorses.com/Horses/photos/lkwalk2.jpg to http://www.gypsyhorses.com/Horses/photos/lkwalk2.jpg
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070928123453/http://www.usenta.org/images/baby_fury9.jpg to http://www.usenta.org/images/baby_fury9.jpg
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050206114403/http://treefrogstables.com/lucinhand.jpg to http://www.treefrogstables.com/lucinhand.jpg
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070318160146/http://www.ophb-tcf.org/images/nonpro_yearling_colt.jpg to http://www.ophb-tcf.org/images/nonpro_yearling_colt.jpg
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:56, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This may be a good article on which to base an update:  http://www.thehorse.com/articles/36742/researchers-develop-objective-conformation-scoring-system  Montanabw(talk) 18:19, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Research update 

message: This article is very much lacking in citations. Many of the "alleged" citations are actually just links to photographs; many are deadlinks. We have plenty of photos in WikiCommons without needing to link to external images. Poor images should be swapped out for better ones. Images should be repositioned to be next to their text (not above).
There is a lot of content that is unnecessary or tangential. Much of the content is focused on faults; see "Eyes" for an example, noting it doesn't describe what a good eye looks like. Compare it to "Ears" which starts off explaining good ear size/shape/placement.
Vast sections are bulleted lists with one bullet per sentence instead of using prose (see MOS:LISTBULLET). These should be changed to prose. If no citation and it sounds like someone's essay, then much of it can be deleted. Example of junk: see "Jaw size"; no one is going to measure their horse's jaw, and it is incorrect information, especially if you consider small ponies compared to large draft horses.
Each section could be simplified to: What is it, what is a good position or size, and what are some faults. If illustrations are desirable, select a series showing 'good, bad, horrible' or 'good, different, other different' like I did for . Note that I selected similar images to make it easier to compare the faces—no tack or equipment, all facing the same direction, similar coloration.
   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  09:19, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serious cleanup needed