Talk:Cat Stevens

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
*Strong Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, previous request in archives.  Levdr1lp / talk 21:33, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: See BBC: Cat Stevens to tour US for the first time since 1976 Esowteric+Talk 08:47, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, thanks - I just was coming here to add it. Tvoz/talk 04:04, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cat Stevens to tour US for the first time since 1976 

message: It's probably too late to comment here, but I agree with User:Tvoz, for the same reasons. Everyone exposed to the artist's music usually does so from his 1970s catalog, not as Yusuf, but as Cat Stevens, and he still records with that name as well. Most often they discover the "Yusuf music" after being told about the name change, but certainly, the bulk of his notability was earned as 
Cat Stevens and he uses the name on CDs and his songbooks teaching youngsters to play his songs from those earlier days, as well as other opportunities to continue earning money which he uses for philanthropic and educational organizations. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 18:13, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  New comment regarding Cat Stevens 

message: Princess Cheyenne was a famous exotic dancer in Boston who was once engaged to Cat Stevens. A Google Books search for "Princess Cheyenne" Boston turns up a Cat Stevens: Songbook but I can't preview it. It would be nice to know exactly what's said about her in the book. (I assume she's mentioned in it, otherwise why is it showing up in the search results?) Maybe she was the inspiration for a song. Can anyone help with this? --Rosekelleher (talk) 18:25, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference to Princess Cheyenne in Cat Stevens songbook? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Cat Stevens. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.yusufislam.com/faq/why-has-yusuf-dropped-islam-f/
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.yusufislam.com/lifeline/0/c0a000278bb374d0e7ccc4fff9c6f50c/
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.yusufislam.com/lifeline/0/89e745cf04fb2557b83cc08c8319216d/
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.yusufislam.org.uk/lifeline/0/bdf531e09252cc4c73fc5d84c4138cb3/
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.yusufislam.com/lifeline/5/e7d1d7b4ed05dee95e2e98b6f8b9cabb/
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.yusufislam.com/lifeline/5/732059b53c9209c0cc0b34c7549ce4a2
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.yusufislam.com/lifeline/5/060ab65489b4e02c6a8b3d932af0c3b0/
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.yusufislam.org.uk/lifeline/0/bdf531e09252cc4c73fc5d84c4138cb3/
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.yusufislam.com/faq/8f2e6db2c94070284e3409cd2774d901/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090722084807/http://www.ascap.com/eventsawards/awards/prs/2005/songwriter.html to http://www.ascap.com/eventsawards/awards/prs/2005/songwriter.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I want to explain why I'm  reverting the good faith edits by Winkelvi that changed references to "Yusuf" to "Islam", citing MOS.  I believe this is a case where particular circumstances require an adaptation to our customary MOS guidelines. As we all of course know, "Islam" is the name of a religion as well as the surname the artist has adopted, and as such there is a high likelihood of confusion if we refer to him just as "Islam". Using "Yusuf Islam" each time proved awkward and unecessarily wordy.  He himself now uses the single name "Yusuf" on his records and he is usually referred to  as such by journalists (see this recent article, for instance). An example of the confusion problem is this sentence from our article: Islam himself has said the "cut" between his former life and his life as a Muslim might have been too quick, too severe, and that more people might have been better informed about Islam, and given an opportunity to better understand it, and himself, if he had simply removed those items that were considered harām, in his performances, allowing him to express himself musically and educate listeners through his music without violating any religious constraints. Much clearer if we use "Yusuf" as the first word - there are numerous examples of potentially confusing wording.  We've discussed this in the past - see this, for example - and have settled on using "Yusuf" - the mononym he uses himself, like Cher - (or using a pronoun) in the text, with appropriate use of  "Yusuf Islam", but not "Islam" alone, except when referring to the religion - which we of course do in this article.  It's the name he uses and is just clearer, and therefore acceptable under MOS guidelines, not unlike using first names in article where more than one individual with the same surname are discussed. Our first responsibility is clarity for our readers.  MOS can accommodate unusual circumstances, and this article has remained relatively stable with that accommodation. I'm changing it back, but of course am open to discussion or other suggestions.Tvoz/talk 06:55, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I can see the potential for confusion, but I wonder whether the usage would be sometimes clear from the context. The use of "Yusuf" also seems anachronistic in some places, e.g., when discussing the period of 1990s–2006 when he was known as "Yusuf Islam" and not as merely "Yusuf". I personally find it rather irritating to see an encyclopedic article referring to a person by their first name – at least ordinarily. In this case it makes some sense (e.g., as with Madonna (entertainer)), but not so much when discussing the period before 2006. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:34, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Yusuf" vs "Islam" 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080929071143/http://www.islamfortoday.com:80/vh1catstevens.htm to http://www.islamfortoday.com/vh1catstevens.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20111004154204/http://www.mountainoflight.co.uk/talks_cw.html to http://www.mountainoflight.co.uk/talks_cw.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: My edit on the Salman Rushdie controversy has twice been reverted by User: Tvoz, who gave this justification for the second revert: RV: take it to talk if you wish but look at the archives' extensive discussion on this. Also, this is unsourced (note, YT is not RS), & your OR comment "showed Yusuf as being clearly in support of the fatwa." is POV. Last, "whitewash" is insulting.
I had said, This main article is a whitewash unless his words of fatwa support are included.  I still feel that is fair comment and in no way insulting.  The article is a hagiography, and Steven's disgraceful support of the fatwa inciting muslims to kill the  eminent novelist Rushdie has been swept under the carpet.  It is not OR to say he was "clearly in support"; the video archive shows this to be true. (It is of no lesser consequence that the video archive can been seen on YouTube; the fact is that the recording exists and is generally available).  Fay Weldon's contemporaneous comments (and the police Inspector's spineless discomfiture) back this up.  
I accept that there is separate full page on the Rushdie controversy, but I consider that my short paragraph is an essential balance to this very biased main article.  Perhaps Stevens now regrets his words and may deserve redemption, but if the article is going to sing his praises as a "man of peace", then the full story of his incitement to murder should also be made clear.  Just as the Scientology WP page is regularly policed to keep the truth at bay, it seems that the same appears be true here.
My deleted paragraph said, 'When asked on TV if he would shelter Rushdie, Yusuf replied that he would try to phone Ayatollah Khomeini to tell him exactly where Rushdie was. Yusuf said that, if they were in an Islamic state, and if ordered to execute Rushdie, then "Perhaps, yes!" Asked if he would attend a demonstration where an effigy of Rushdie would be burned, Yusuf replied,"I would have hoped it would be the real thing; but no, if it's just an effigy, I don't think (so)". Fay Weldon, who was present, said she wished the Police Superintendent (who was also present) would arrest Yusuf for incitement to burn Rushdie.'  Everything in that paragraph is true, relevant unbiased and concise, and should stay in the article. Arrivisto (talk) 11:13, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I encountered the same problem many times with Tvoz. Not only did Tvoz revert edits inappropriately but he was absolutely unreachable on the Talk page. He simply would not allow the truth to be told about this issue and went out of his way to suppress any effort by editors to include it. He would then archive the Talk page whenever the issue was discussed so that others wouldn't see the discussions. On one of these archived Talk pages I saw he and one of his supporters who identified as a "Muslim editor" boasting about being able to promote "their religion". It raised strong questions about objectivity and why Wikipedia editors would be allowed to whitewash narratives  to promote political interests. The concerns I expressed a number of times were apparently not shared by other Wikipedia editors at that time and Tvoz was allowed to do as he wished.. It stands to reason he may have a similar regressive impact in other  Wikipedia exploits.  To this day the section on Rushdie remains deceptive. EyePhoenix (talk) 21:11, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:   You don't know what you're talking about, and you are once again inaccurate and insulting.  I am not male, not Muslim (quite far from it, in fact), and have no political agenda here. If anything I very much disagree with what the subject has been alleged to promote regarding Salman Rushdie, which I have expressed repeatedly on this Talk page (read the archives), but my political opinions do not determine how I edit. (And by the way, I have always been vocal in my support for keeping the name of this article as it is now, so your point is ridiculous.) You are the one with bias, and you are apparently unable or unwilling to understand very simple BLP policies. You seem to have a political agenda, which perhaps is why you accuse me of one. I archive material on talk pages according to common practice around the encyclopedia, as you've been told several times, only after time has passed and the material is stale. I don't delete it, I archive it - available for all to see, and always point to it when questions are raised about one or another matter. I do not whitewash - that is insulting - I have been editing here for almost 10 years and do so according to policy and common standards across the project. And your accusation about me (in addition to incorrectly assuming I'm male),  "It stands to reason he may have a similar regressive impact in other  Wikipedia exploits", is particularly offensive and completely unsupported by any evidence and you need to withdraw it. You yourself admit that the concerns you expressed were not shared by other editors. That's how it works here - consensus. If you have policy reasons to object to anything, then say so. But your offensive innuendo is not the way to do it. The material added here was not reliably sourced - it was OR interpretation of a You Tube video (which is not an acceptable source), as I explained in the reverting edit summaries. Those are policy reasons. And the substance of  the overall argument against including all of the detail you'd like to include in this section is simple: this matter needs to be here, but it is not the most important part of his life story, and it should not have undue weight in the article; this is a BLP and it needs to be neutral - if we include all of the claims, we have to include all of his denials - that gives too much  weight relative to the rest of the piece; there is a long linked article that goes into all of it in detail which is more than we do for any other controversy or matter here; etc. We've been through it all before - stop making accusations and hurling insults, and follow procedure. Tvoz/talk 08:13, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just as in all the conversations you quickly archived, the more you speak the more you illustrate my point. Perhaps its time to recuse yourself from this article which you've tenaciously ruled over from some years now. EyePhoenix (talk) 04:37, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yusuf Islam & Salman Rushdie 

message: What is a ""Selected" Discography"? Wiktionary and urban dictionary have no entries.72.223.107.29 (talk) 05:21, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Selected Discography" 

message: Early Musical Career section:
"Over the next two years, Stevens recorded and toured with an eclectic group of artists ranging from Jimi Hendrix to Engelbert Humperdinck. Stevens was considered a fresh-faced teen star, placing several single releases in the British pop music charts.[33] Some of that success was attributed to the pirate radio station Wonderful Radio London, which gained him fans by playing his records. In August 1967, he went on the air with other recording artists who had benefited from the station to mourn its closure.[34]"
The source link (#34 here) is dead and some quick internet searching doesn't lead me to any sources to confirm these details. Does anyone have a reliable source for both the claim that he was listened to on Wonderful Radio, and that he was on the air for their closure broadcast? Thanks.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Klockwerk (talk • contribs) 17:06, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for bringing this up - will see what we can find. Leahtwosaints, if you have a chance, can you see if you have anything on this?  Meanwhile, the "dead link" tag is good there. Tvoz/talk 06:58, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Found something a few minutes later- not the best source, but at least it's alive. Tvoz/talk 07:18, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stevens and Wonderful Radio London - dead source link 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Removed comment that violates strict BLP rules. Further, we don't allow original research or interpretations. Tvoz/talk 07:31, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Yusuf made a series of comments that appeared to show his support for the fatwa." 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 8 external links on Cat Stevens. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hi folks
there was already an entry for this; I just changed the tense. I also added another citation.  This is worth keeping current.  Realitylink (talk) 10:09, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updated information about the release of Tea for the Tillerman2 

message: In 1990 he went to visit Saddam Hussein, according to him, to tell him to pull out of Kuwait, among other messages.
This article makes no mention of this.  And a search of this Talk and the archives comes up empty.  Adding this info to the article will be a definite improvement.  I have no idea why this wasn't done.
Here's the story in his own words:
:Interview with Yusuf Islam at The American School in London, 1997 - On His Visit To See Saddam Hussein (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx9TG5F_9yY&t=20m42s)
Perhaps others here would like to join in the effort of gathering additional excellent references and then adding this info to the article.  Also, if anyone knows the reason why this info is not already included, I'd be interested to hear that story.  --Concord19 (talk) 18:47, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't recall this being brought up before, and I've been a lead editor on this article since 2006. So to my knowledge there wasn't a decision or a reason for or against this.  However, first we'd need better sourcing as you tube videos are generally not accepted as reliable sourcing. Then we'd have to determine if this incident was significant enough in his life to be included in this article which of course can't go into every visit he made, every interview he gave.  So, if you have something more, please provide it here on the talk page and we can discuss. If there's disagreement about it, we'd need to reach consensus to include or not.  Thank you. Tvoz/talk 04:20, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Visit to see Saddam Hussein 

message: Maybe worth to add: In 1986 he went to Peshawar to see the situation of the Afghan refugees for himself. There he started a cooperation with Abdallah Azzam, one of the most influential jihadists, and his service bureau (mainly financed by Osama bin Laden). The bureau published jihadi hymns sung by Cat Stevens. He also appeared on the cover of the al-Jihad magazine: https://books.google.com/books?id=7FfPDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA277
Reference: 
Jo1971 (talk) 09:15, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Jesus, what an idiot. This should absolutely be in the article. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 12:06, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cat Stevens and Jihadists 

message: shouldn't this article be named to reflect the name of the person its after?
the speedrunner known as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissa_Wright was formerly known as Cosmo. The article reflects this change
Does a name change for Islam not demand the same respect? Is there a good reason that this article still refers to Yusuf by his old name?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:BE60:2B60:0:0:0:32 (talk) 17:02, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Please review the archives - this has been discussed many times and this solution is what we reached consensus on. The article very clearly spells it all out - and he is still best known as Cat Stevens. Even he embraces that. Tvoz/talk 23:27, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Consensus can change, and those RMs aren't especially recent.  And indeed, that he keeps on releasing albums, or billing tours with slightly different versions of his name makes it even more of a moving target.  But if anything he himself is tacking back the other way, by using "Yusuf / Cat Stevens" or "Yusuf, Cat Stevens" on such material recently.  (Notice he doesn't use his more recent surname in his stage name at all.)  Using those in full would be extremely awkward:  I think the intention is more "either/or", in any case.  So it's either the present title, or mononymic Yusuf -- for which he's clearly not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, so that'd need to be disambiguated -- presumably to Yusuf (singer) or even Yusuf (Cat Stevens).  Don't think there's a strong case for those being better.  109.255.211.6 (talk) 03:52, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please read WP:COMMONNAME - his fame (and most searched) comes from his "Cat Stevens" name, which he acknowledges. The article is crystal clear about all of the names he has been known by. Tvoz/talk 04:33, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Above, I made the very point about the name he "acknowledges" in his credits and billing.  If he were to insist on consistently and exclusively publicly calling himself "Yusuf" or "Yusuf Islam" (or "Steven Demetre Georgiou", or whatever else), then "most searched term" isn't necessarily decisive.  But as he doesn't do that, that observation is hypothetical, by way of supporting the rationale behind the current name, and the infeasibility of the other choices.  109.255.211.6 (talk) 21:13, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cat Stevens vs Yusuf Islam 

message: Unfortunately note 74 seems to be a dead link. I would have liked to have read the context. It does seem strange that a musician would have no knowledge of a millennium of western musical tradition. 162.251.16.246 (talk) 04:39, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you have misinterpreted the issue. Of course he was aware of Western traditions of music being composed and used by humans to worship God; it was the pure concept of 'music for God' – not for the human purpose of worshipping God – that struck him. Remember even most Western religious music was written by composers for the Church or for pious individuals in exchange for money, or patronage in kind (since composers have to live), or maintenance of an establishement's reputation; not much (though some) was written with no thought whatever other than for "God's benefit." {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.213.18.208 (talk) 07:22, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Never heard of music for God? 

message: He lives in Dubai and doesn't have a home in London. The article needs to be corrected. Ydawg11 (talk) 10:48, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not without a reliable, verifiable source on this. It may be true, but we require verifiable sourcing. See WP:Verify. Tvoz/talk 16:06, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lives in Dubai doesn't have a home in London