Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Archive 4

message: It is wonderful that the community is doing something about this problem, and believe me, this is a big problem. I myself attempted to define the Rubinomics article but I believe the outcome of the article was disappointing and I got disenfranchised, but the solution of the problem is not adding more views that are varied. The solution is not to add or recruit more contributors who are from different backgrounds. Not even to read more brick and mortar works. These may all help but it is not the solution to the problem, for the problem is a fundamental characteristic of the community. You see, the community (in my humble opinion, correct me if I'm wrong) is mostly composed of enthusiasts (tech maybe?). This is a big problem. Your goal is to build a collection of all human knowledge - encyclopedia. But in order to collect this knowledge, you need to have the best and the wisest in all possible fields that humanity has to offer from all over the world. Ladies and gentlemen, this is not just a Star Wars factbook, its a contribution to the world for generations to come. There are great men and women out there who have decades of hardwork and wisdom who are willing to share their wisdom. You should pursue them and ask them to join and share. They have proven their greatness in their given fields even before the Internet existed, so in my opinion, they should be part of the article writing process. Talk to them. Listen to them. Learn from them. Attend their classes if you are fortunate to be their student, even though they have flaws. (I'm sure you guys have watched 'A Beautiful Mind')Better yet, let them write themselves and then go into an intellectual discourse with them. Many of them will enjoy talking and debating about what they know for curious minds contribute as much as the pioneer if all are together discoursing like Socrates' garden school. And this applies in everything not only Philosophy. Don't let them become writers exclusively for the big publishing companies. Just recently, a great mind by the name of Jacques Derrida died. He is one of the greatest minds of his field in the last century. He began the Deconstructionalist school of criticism. He is gone now, but has he ever contributed to the noble cause of building the greatest collection of human knowledge? I doubt. Even in his own work? Great minds like him are disappearing one by one and they are the best prospective contributers in the many fields like the Humanities, the Social Sciences, the Natural Sciences, etc. that the world has to offer. It will be a complete waste if they do not contribute to the wikis themselves. Their hard untainted work will be gone forever after their books (or their unpublished dissertations) turn to dust and this digital medium remains composed of reinterpretations of another man's great ideas and views. What is left will not necessarily represent the ideas or views of the pioneer. How could one be objective if one does not recognize that there is validity in the different sides of the coin? It is not fair and just to not involve them in the writing process after they pursue post-graduate studies and a lifetime of research. We have it easy for they will just feed you their conclusions filled with their sweat, blood, and dead brain cells but you will just throw it away preferring your interpretation of an objective assessment of their work. Terrible. Credibility goes to someone who didn't work as hard. Thats the reason why the many good writers are those who read alot. Let them take part, if not....Shame....  
And if you are a skeptic, I will try to make my advice clear. Look for the best in people in their field no matter what their background and ask them to contribute, at least interview. And if they do not know how to use the Internet, teach them! There are so many great historians, economists, doctors, mathematicians, sociologists, psychologists, natural scientists (all branches), philosophers, etc. out there who want to contribute to the world for free before they are dead. Even university professors will be ok. SO let them join! Your noble cause will only grow in greatness if you do this. THEN you can discourse and edit mercilessly for you know that you are sharing ideas with the expert, who will also try see it your way as well. Knowledge is truly shared and the world will move forward.....
23:16, 10 Oct 2004 203.76.241.215 
:Good stuff, Humble Man. But what this subproject is about does not preclude anyone from approaching more experts to encourage them to contribute. (I've been doing that for the Wikipedia Maori while writing articles for it.) We can each do as much or as little as we choose along each path or just one. Robin Patterson 01:42, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: A Humble Man's Advice

message: I prefer "Female oriented", since "Women's studies" sounds dry and academic, and doesn't sound like it encompasses  professions with high proportion of women   --- Xed 15:13, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: 'Women's magazines' and 'Women's studies' - both sound segregationist. 'Female orientated' has a broader meaning, one which includes 'Woman's studies'. Like you imply, 'Woman's studies' sounds like it's just about Women writers --- Xed 16:24, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: I don't think dividing it up helps to keep it simple. The page is already far too complicated. --- Xed 22:17, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Female oriented" or "Women's studies" 

message: While scouring old Wikipedia project pages, I found this little gem: Wikipedia:Topics_where_Wikipedia_is_weak, which predates this project by three months.  Do you think there's anything we can incorporate into here?  Peter O. (Talk) 15:16, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
:He's right on the book/movie angle. Wikipedia is does read sometimes like a guide to popular culture rather than a broad knowledge resourse. Also, the part about information the various provinces and towns of countries strikes a chord. The UK and US have particularly detailed information in this regard. So it might be worth encouraging people to create articles for the main towns and provinces in the weekly country carousel countries. The creator of the page (Danny) is a member of this project  --- Xed 23:24, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for noticing the page, and for taking up--far more effectively, I might add--my original effort to expand the scope of Wikipedia to include far more than pop culture and U.S.-based references but to be a truly global project. Danny 04:06, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Now this is interesting 

message: Please vote yay or nay below on this proposal. ---Xed 18:50, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not what I meant. The 10 items would simply illustrate the idea behind the section. Only the the items on the separate page would change.--Xed 21:50, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Page size reduction vote

message: We've had several requests to move the voting section of the main page to subpages. I think the list of participants is growing long enough to justify being moved to a subpage as well. Please add your names under the alternative you prefer for each one. (added another vote - Xed 16:58, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving sections from main page to subpages 

message: The To Do template is due to be updated to take into account this weeks votes. As of 17 Oct, it contains 17 elected items and 9 rotated items from the Country Carousel. Not many of the items of this list have been significantly edited, leading me to believe we're being over-ambitious to start with. Also, there are only 14 items in the current voting section to choose from. To get some focus, I suggest we:
* limit the country carousel to one country. In the future, we can add more later.
* limit the Voted Items to 5.
This would make the total elected items to 8 (including Cotw and 2 extra carousel items). In addition, I propose we add the text "If you nominate or vote for an article, you are expected to make a contribution to it" to the voting section.
So the new template would look like this (note also the new Watch options):
Here are some of the Countering Systemic Bias project open tasks:
Feel free to edit or discuss this list. 
                                                                                                                                        	
{|                                           	
{|	
Add yourself as a participant. Vote for our next collaborative articles. Discuss our strategy.  Create, Improve, Identify or Comment on articles from the list below or from the more comprehensive list on the project page. Publicise and recruit other contributors. Watch the items on the list below or the comprehensive list. Use  to include the template on your user page or elsewhere.
----
{| style="background:transparent;" cellpadding=2
                                                                                                                                        	CSB collaboration of the week: Congo Civil War		
Country carousel: A country is selected from a list every week.                                                                         	                                              		
Benin,  Category, Politics, History, Mathieu Kérékou, Dahomey                                                                           	                                              		
Voted items: Every week, 5 articles are chosen in the voting section.                                                                   	                                              		
Black History Month, Djuna Barnes, Knitting,  Freedom of speech*, Land Reform. (* Any starred articles have a limited geographic scope.)	                                              		
*Support
**Xed 13:36, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reform of voting and To Do template vote 

message: Template and votes updated. I don't know how to move the voting section and participants to a subpage--Xed 00:21, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Implementing recent decisions 

message: I see you've added Communist Party of Nepal (Unified Marxist-Leninist) with the sidetext "Fights civil war". Have you confused CPN(UML) with Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist)? CPN(UML) is a major legal political party in Nepal (part of the current government in fact) and have no armed activities. --Soman 11:44, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  CPN(UML)? 

message: I've noticed in the past that there is no category for African-American history that I can find. Am I wrong about this? I know there is one for African-Americans, and another one for Civil Rights history... would this be useful? It'd be large, that's for sure, but maybe that'd be the point. Well, it's a thought... --Fastfission 13:39, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Category: African-American history

message: Although the distinction between "systemic" and "systematic" is mentioned in the section "Systemic bias" I think this distinction needs to be emphasized and made more prominent, as I'm sure many people have confused and will continue to confuse these terms - in fact I wonder if the project should even consider changing its name to "Countering structural bias". Consider some of the remarks made by some of the participants indicate to me a possible misunderstanding of this distinction, and thus the purposes of this project:
* blankfaze - I'd like to cut down on as much bias/POV in the project as possible, but I'd especially like to keep Israel and its related articles free of bias.  Some users, I've noticed, are on a mission to install a pro-Israel POV in the project.
* Bontenbal I think that there is systematic bias of the European Union. It's far more important than most UK/US people seem to think.
* ShaunMacPherson 01:21, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusion between "systemic" and "systematic" 

message: There are a lot of cleanup entries like: "Traffic congestion - needs to be less US-centric".  These seem like the right thing for "WikiProject Countering systemic bias", but where would you like me to move them to? I'll just attach them to the end of this comment for now...  Thanks for your work.  JesseW 22:37, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where to put cleanup entries?