Talk:Kiro Gligorov

message: I would like to ask the member Funkyfly to explain me the last changes.
The person in the article is important to the rest of the world only as a former president of the Republic of Macedonia under his name KIRO GLIGOROV and ONLY KIRO GLIGOROV. Not Blagoje, not Blagoev, not Blagojevich, not Bruce Springsteen, not Ghengis Khan, not Napoleon. Why would be so important for an occasional internet surfer how this person is called in Republic of Bulgaria? If thats so important, lets put how his name is written or pronunced in chinese, arabic, lithuanian etc.
BTW Blagoja is probably his father's name, so Blagoev is logically a Patronymic. As patronymics unlike in Russia are not widely used here, in THIS COUNTRY WHERE KIRO GLIGOROV WAS A PRESIDENT, that "Blagoev" is completely irrelevant. The whole Planet Earth knows him as KIRO GLIGOROV.
Then also have in mind that his hometown was under serbian rule in the period between WWI and WWII and what is today Republic of Macedonia was considered as south Serbia. The people were forced to declare as serbs and the serbian language was forcibly imposed as official language. the personal names were changed into serbian forms, if you were Mitre Mitrevski you would become Mitar Mirić, so accordingly Kiro Gligorov became Ćira Gligorović. Should I now add the serbian form of his name in the article?! Well, I may say that under that form he was listed in all the administrative documents of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Who knows, someone could also find some document from his studies in Belgrade in the 1930s where he claims he is "serbian"?!
this is absurd.--Vbb-sk-mk 18:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He declared as Bulgarian at some point, so Bulgarian stays, also stays the name under which he enlisted in the University of Sofia and signed his Bulgarian citizenship certificate.   /FunkyFly.talk_  18:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As a matter of fact I'd rather you point a document showing serbian identity. It will contribute to the article.   /FunkyFly.talk_  20:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I explained as well - no one will take YOU seriously without sources. I have sources, you dont, so you'll be reverted if you erase sourced info. Read Wikipedia:OR   /FunkyFly.talk_  19:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: your sources are a website of a Bulgarian nationalist political party and documents issued by a state that was an ally of Adolph Hitler.--Vbb-sk-mk 19:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So? Most original sources used to prove the Holocaust were issued by the Nazi state of Adolph Hitler itself. That doesn't mean they can't be used.--Tekleni 19:31, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Vbb-sk-mk, as much as you dont like it, two of your country recent learders - Gligorov and now Lyubcho Georgievski had or have currently Bulgarian citizenship. Btw Gligorov never revoked his certificate of Bulgarian citizenship, so de jure he still is one. Also, Dosta Dimovska from the current governent of the Republic of Macedonia is also a Bulgarian citizen. Stop appealing to motive and deal with the facts. And by the way you can in no way prove Kiro Gligorov was forced to declare Bulgarian. As a matter of fact he did it in his own will, as he was applying for a job. If he resented the "Bulgarian occupators" that much he couldve joined the communist guerrila forces in the mountains, but he did not.   /FunkyFly.talk_  19:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: It is good that you admit the Bulgarian citizenship of your father. It will rather ease the procedures for obtaining Bulgarian citizenship for yourself if you wish to do so. The birth certificates were issued voluntarily in 1941 and your father obviously chose to get one. As for south serbs, that is something noone outside Serbia believes in. Unlike that, the population of your country prior to the begginning of the 20th century declared itself Bulgarian, and that is a well documented fact, confirmed by many international historians. See Demographic history of Macedonia, the section is statistical data.   /FunkyFly.talk_  20:35, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: You simply confirmed my point. He or his parents voluntarily chose Bulgarian citizenship. They could have otherwise run away in the mountains to fight the "occupier" but they did not, because that citizenship meant something to them, and they held on to it.   /FunkyFly.talk_  20:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: And you will be reverted per Wikipedia:POINT. Those documents are indeed on the website of VMORO, as they are quite a recent discovery. About your parents up in the mountains to shoot "Bulgarian occupiers" - good for you.   /FunkyFly.talk_  21:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: As a matter of fact you have not shown anything. The only thing you're doing is making a Wikipedia:POINT that those sources are unreliable in some sense. Judge the message, not the messenger.   /FunkyFly.talk_  23:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanation required 

message: Aldux, In case you dont understand Bulgarian: "Kiro Gligorov is a bulgarian citizennational, honest and trustworthy". He obtained that document on his own will, and attached it to his application. He even obtained two of those, one from the Stip municipality, and one from the Skopie one. (links 1 and 2).   /FunkyFly.talk_  14:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What impressive proofs! Since Vardar Macedonia was part of Bulgaria during WWII, a small thing you seem strangely to forget, and I highly doubt one could declare himself Macedonian during the period. Also, you've closed the discussion yourself: the words bulgarian citizen doesn't prove anything, exactly because it was in the kingdom of Bulgaria; and from this you weave a fairy tale of pro-Bulgarian collaborationism and so on (BTW, this could be true; but I pretend WP:RS). As you know, I'm neither Greek nor Bulgarian nor Macedonian, and have no axe to grind; but I've never put up with pov-pushing of any sort, and this you already no. So sorry, but I'm going to revert.--Aldux 16:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have reworded it so that it states that he obtained Bulgarian citizenships, without mention of ethnicity. The documents indeed say ethnicity. As for removing sourced information, you will be reverted. I also added the "occupation" thing from 1941 to 1944. Happy?   /FunkyFly.talk_  17:32, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The citizenship 

message: FunkyFly and Aldux have debated over the inclusion of the Bulgarian language for Kiro's name in the intro via edit summaries and through me in my and their talks. First off, I must say that I personally hate all those 'grey-area' alternate language debates, which are very frequent in the controversial (and non-so-controversial) articles we all edit. I've made an attempt to describe this debate below. Feel free to add to it if I've ommitted anything, and comment below. Thanks. •NikoSilver• 13:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, this is only hosted at VMRO-BND's server. The document is not "theirs". The document is issued by Bulgarian authorities in Skopje in 1942. ForeignerFromTheEast 18:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dont be ridiculous. Sources are provided. ForeignerFromTheEast 19:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Linked in the article. ForeignerFromTheEast 19:20, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

text: For the 3rd time: they are issued by Bulgarian authorities in Skopje. ForeignerFromTheEast 20:04, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

text: You are arguing in circles. For the last time, I repeat, the sources are linked. ForeignerFromTheEast 21:35, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They are issued by the Bulgarian authorities in Skopje. This is the last time I repeat this. ForeignerFromTheEast 21:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The languages 

message: *Add comments below
*Do not include- It should not be included because such claims originate from the political party in Bulgaria - VMRO-BND (see external links in the article, its the Plovdiv office of the party). Thats the only source we have currently for these claims. Its a political party considered nationalist so I cant be sure about the veracity and neutrality of their claims. Moreover, even if he did sign such documents, it was during the Bulgaria's alliance with the Axis. In a such situation I doubt if the human rights, such as the right of a free ethnic self-determination, were granted by the authorities, as fascism is often connected to extreme nationalism. Moreover, its an undisputed fact that he took part in the National Liberation War of Macedonia and ASNOM, which were pointed against the Bulgarian control of the region, and aimed at forming of a Macedonian state (SR Macedonia). Also, he often joked about the former occupation of Macedonia by the Kingdom of Yugoslavia or Bulgaria by telling how their authorities were changing his surname (Gligorović in serbian, then in 1941 switch to Gligorov in Bulgarian and so on). However I dont have source on that right now consider it trivia --Dzole 01:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, this is only hosted at VMRO-BND's server. The document is not "theirs". The document is issued by Bulgarian authorities in Skopje in 1942. ForeignerFromTheEast 18:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dont be ridiculous. Sources are provided. ForeignerFromTheEast 19:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Linked in the article. ForeignerFromTheEast 19:20, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

text: For the 3rd time: they are issued by Bulgarian authorities in Skopje. ForeignerFromTheEast 20:04, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

text: You are arguing in circles. For the last time, I repeat, the sources are linked. ForeignerFromTheEast 21:35, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They are issued by the Bulgarian authorities in Skopje. This is the last time I repeat this. ForeignerFromTheEast 21:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: Can we use a better picture? Preferably one before the assassination attempt. Politis (talk) 16:35, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture

message: How this could be truth? Josip Broz Tito was 88 when he died as president of SFRJ. Saigon from europe (talk) 11:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe he was the oldest president at the time that issue of Guinness book of records was published (2000). The oldest elected head of a state was Sandro Pertini, president of Italy who left office in 1985, aged 88 years and 9 months.--Vitriden (talk) 18:30, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Err, no - the oldest elected head of state was Eamon de Valera was was 90 years 8 months 10 days old when his second seven-year term of office as President of Ireland expired on 24 June 1973. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 16:59, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia section - eldest president ever? 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110530093352/http://217.16.70.245/?pbroj=1497 to http://217.16.70.245/?pbroj=1497&pr=15&stID=16880
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070930210921/http://www.mrt.com.mk/en/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1224&Itemid=26 to http://www.mrt.com.mk/en/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1224&Itemid=26
*Added  tag to http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/01/02/2893038/former-macedonian-president-kiro.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060828220328/http://www.president.gov.mk/gligorov_e.asp to http://www.president.gov.mk/gligorov_e.asp
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20040414164619/http://faq.macedonia.org/politics/kiro.gligorov.html to http://faq.macedonia.org/politics/kiro.gligorov.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Long-standing sentence was deleted with explanation of lacking sources by a new IP, that is WP:SPA. After 4 sources were added the deletion continues. This is obviously some form of vandalism. Jingiby (talk) 12:17, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The attached sources contain scanned primary documents signed by Kiro Gligorov during the Bulgarian annexation during the Second World War and those issued by the Bulgarian authorities in his name at the same time. Moreover, these documents were taken from the archives in North Macedonia from which there are facsimiles. All this corresponds to the provided by secondary sources information and I do not understand why it should be removed. One of the authors is PhD and former chef of the Bulgarian state archive, etc. What here is unreliable? Jingiby (talk) 14:14, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Long-standing sentence deleted repeatedly