Talk:Williams Grand Prix Engineering

message: Willians wasn't created in 1977, Jacques Lafitte was second in the German GP on a Williams as early as 1974. Previously the team was named from his sponsors : Polytoys and Iso-Malboro.
Ericd 13:22, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well its a bit confusing. Technically, Williams Grand Prix Engineering (as they were known at the time) were established in 1977. However, in 1969, Frank Williams bought an ex-works Brabham for some selected F1 races. He continued racing on and off in F1 using other people's cars until 1972 when Polytoys approached him to produce a car for them. They were then called Iso-Marlboro until 1975, when they ran as "Williams" for the first time. In '76 he joined up with Walter Wolf, but ran Hesketh chassis (not designed by Williams) in races. Finally in '77 Williams as we know it today was made. This could be a bit of a contentious issue, but I think they were only a fully fledged F1 constructor (in terms of building and using their own chassis/parts in-house) from 1977... before that they were just participating when they could get their head in - building cars for other companies, buying cars from chassis makers and running them occasionally. It could be argued either way, but I think the wording of the article as it stands ("Frank Williams founded the team as it currently stands in 1977 after two unsuccessful attempts at managing Formula One teams of the same name.") is accurate, but an entire section could be written about his attempts before cracking it as a fully independent team... (See this - very good info from GrandPrix.com. AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 12:52, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creation Date 

message: You can find the version "BMW.WilliamsF1 Team" at some sources, including their Official Team Logo. However, the Team does not use it in regular written texts neither does the FIA or the Official Formula 1 Website, they use "BMW WilliamsF1 Team".
Shouldent it be "BMW WilliamsF1 Team" here also then?
:BMW is just there because it is the name of their engine supplier and main sponsor. When this changes (most likely next year) we don't want to have to change where the page is... I've made a redirect from BMW WilliamsF1 Team, but the article is about WilliamsF1 over all time, not just since they have had BMW engines... AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 30 June 2005 00:02 (UTC)
Yes I know, I was just talking about the full name in the box to the right, it says "BMW.WilliamsF1 Team", but it should be "BMW WilliamsF1 Team"
:I think the version with the "." is correct. They could have had a space, or a dash, but they chose period/full-stop. JamesHoadley 06:58, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Call me old-fashioned, but I'll never yield to BMW./-Williams. It's chassis first, engine 2d: Williams-BMW. Tough Luck to BMW.  Trekphiler 06:32, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  BMW.Williams or BMW Williams? 

message: The article doesn't say so, and I can't remeber. I think the reason was simply "It looked shit", and Hewlett Packard was too long, so Invent it was.  JamesHoadley 06:56, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reason for changing HP to "Invent" on rear wing? 

message: Asked why drivers didn't like the new car, Patrick Head demo he'd been there, replying, "Not quick enough."  Trekphiler 06:35, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Fireball Roberts School of Interviewing

message: I can see you're hard at work, Skully! I'd be included to cut the lengthy section on FWRC, though. AlbinoMonkey gave a very good explanation up above as to why the two should be considered as seperate bodies - there's no real connection between them other than Frank Williams (and Patrick Head?). I agree with his position that this article should restrict itself to a brief mention of Frank's earlier activities and a link to FWRC. Cheers. 4u1e 18:44, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frank Williams Racing Cars 

message: With regard to the fair use picture of Mansell's FW11 in 1986 used in the article, is there a reason why it couldn't be replaced by this 1985 image (of the FW10?) which is Creative Commons? I don't want to replace it if there is a reason for the FW11 to be used. Alexj2002 10:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images Used 

message: I started copyediting, but ran into trouble almost immediately with trying to keep things consistent. Turned out the problem was the 1976 and 1977 seasons. There's a nasty little trap lurking in the statistics.
Although it is true that both 'Wolf Williams' and 'Williams' are listed in the 1976 results as constructors, this does not mean that Williams Grand Prix Engineering competed that year. Confused? I was! The list of 'teams' given for 1976 is actually the list of constructors. In 2006 'team' and 'constructor' are the same thing because team's must own the copyright to the design of their cars and so in effect almost always build them themselves and different teams cannot use the same car. This has only been the case since the early 1980s however.
Before then there was nothing to stop teams using cars from other constructors - however constructors score points, not teams, so it was the overall performance of all a constructors cars, not just their 'works' team that determined their position in the table.
Going back to Williams and Wolf in 1976. Frank sold 60% of his team to Walter Wolf in 1976. (See Walter Wolf Racing). The team ran Hesketh 308s that Wolf bought from the defunct Hesketh team, but these were renamed Wolf-Williams FW05s. The team also ran the previous year's car in a couple of races - the Williams FW04 (not Wolf-Williams, because it was built by the previous incarnation of the team). In some tables of results there are therefore two 'Williams' constructors listed - 'Williams' and 'Wolf-Williams', but these only represent one actual team (Wolf Williams). Frank did not leave until early 1977, which is when he set up WGPE. Further adding to the confusion, in 1977 the team used March 761 chassis, so 'Williams' doesn't appear in the constructors table, because the cars were constructed by March.
I have therefore deleted the 1976 paragraph, as this was actually describing the results achieved by the Williams FW04 run by Wolf Williams. Williams Grand Prix Engineering's history starts in 1977. Apologies for the length of the explanation!
See also , , --4u1e 22:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have also rewritten the 1977 paragraph - the 77 season was a consolidation season in which WGPE was not a constructor, using March Engineering customer cars instead. Patrick Nève was the only driver. --4u1e 23:12, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of 1976 material

message: I've dropped by to review the article and am fairly satisified with the quality of work done here. I'd like to see at least one inline reference for each year, however. The object is so that the reader can find more information about an idea, event, concept, etc. without have to google around for it. The inline references you already have done this nicely. We just need more of them. I'll put the article on hold to give you all time to work on it. --CTSWyneken(talk) 13:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Nom comments 

message: The hold has expired and the article denied promotion. Please take a look at the issue listed above. When you've had a chance to address it, please renom the article. --CTSWyneken(talk) 15:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Failed 

message: Where exactly on the car is the Senna "S" located? I can't seem to find it anywhere. The Senna "S" may not even exist. Bubby the Tour G 21:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know how you feel. I tried to find a reference to it a while ago...I couldn't find anything so I deleted the statement. Apparently, it's on the front wing, on the pieces of metal connecting the actual wing to the nose. Hope that helps ;-).--Skully Collins Edits 08:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeh it's on the inside of the front wing uprights. I have a photo, but it may take a while to access (it's not on any computer i have easy access to) – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 11:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah... whenever you can, please upload the photo? Bubby the Tour G 20:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it turns out I was thinking of a different photo, taken with a film camera, so I've had to scan it in. The colours are a bit messed up due to the scanner, but here it is. – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 22:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's ok. It looks great. Think it can be used in the article? Bubby the Tour G 23:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Senna "S"

message: To the anonymous editor who is currently adding the team results - brave work! As I've noted on your talk page, the results you are currently working on actually refer to Frank Williams Racing Cars and should be in that article if anywhere. I suggest that it would be best if they were moved there - I note that you have footnoted them, but they shouldn't really be in this article at all. Cheers. 4u1e 08:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Team Results

message: Currently we are using the image shown on the right for this model. I'm not a big fan of this image, the shot seems too low, not quite straight and too busy in the background. KevS has made the second photo available to us. It's not great quality at full size, but the shot composition is much better I think. When shrunk to thumbnail size, the quality becomes much less of an issue. I think we should use Kev's one instead. Which one do others prefer? Alexj2002 16:52, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: FW16 Image

message: I've just trawled through this page – the 2006 paragraph is now out of date and needs altering in light of 2007 events. I'm not qualified to do so, as I don't know enough about the sport!
cheers
Jlhughes 20:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can someone update 2006? 

message: Can someone add the last five or so F1 results to this article? and the others in the sub article can be linked to. Christopher Connor 21:22, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The best location for the last five years' results is currently under discussion at the WP:F1 discussion page. DH85868993 06:08, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent results 

message: I changed the statistics a bit, because according to all statistics the WilliamsF1 team debuted in 1975 and has by now taken part in 511 Grand Prix'.
Just take a look yourselves
http://www.formula1.com/teams_and_drivers/teams/4/
http://www.statsf1.com/cars/fiche.asp?IdConstructeur=102&LG=2  —Preceding unsigned comment added by SchumiChamp (talk • contribs) 18:50, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Frank Williams Racing Cars debuted in 1975. Williams Grand Prix Engineering (renamed WilliamsF1) debuted in 1977. This article only deals with the latter team. AlexJ 22:20, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I've noticed it is considered as two different teams. But I thought it needed mentioning, because statistically it's all the same team. Could be mentioned somewhere in the article as well...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by SchumiChamp (talk • contribs) 15:37, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

text: The article really needs two infoboxes, one for "WGPE/WilliamsF1 the team" (which would include the races in 1977 with the March) and one for "WGPE/WilliamsF1 the constructor", in the same way that Team Lotus has. I'm cool with us making a distinction between FWRC Williamses and WGPE/WilliamsF1 Williamses, but we probably need to add footnotes to explain what we do and don't include in the stats, to explain the discrepancies compared to sites such as the ones mentioned above. For the moment, I've reverted the debut and number of races to match List of Formula One records and FORIX, until we agree the best solution. DH85868993 03:06, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

text: That's all fine until you try and go into detail. When you look at the details of constructors (remember that Williams goes back to the last era when you could buy cars from other teams), teams and entrants, it all gets very complicated. Most of the sites you refer to lump all possible variations of Williams together, including cars built by Hesketh, Brabham, De Tomaso and March Engineering in the total. Having FWRC and Williams F1 (né WGPE) articles helps us deal with this. 4u1e 18:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: WilliamsF1 debut season and stats

message: Just like the headline says. WilliamsF1 and Frank Williams Racing Cars articles should me merged into one. Why, you might ask? Well, it seems to be the logical thing to do. Even the official Formula One website clearly refers to the Williams team debuting in 1975, taking 6 points (including a podium) and 9th place in the Constructors' Championship. Nearly every website with F1 statistics refers to Williams' debut season as 1975 and also have the two extra seasons counted into WilliamsF1's number of GP entries.
Just a thought.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by SchumiChamp (talk • contribs) 09:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the arguments expressed in the preceding discussion are still valid. DH85868993 (talk) 16:34, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  WilliamsF1 and FWRC 

message: A discussion is in progress at WP:F1 regarding the most appropriate name for this article. Please contribute any thoughts you have on the matter there. DH85868993 (talk) 22:33, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article name 

message: This entire article needs to be 100% rewritten, as the language / grammar is not idiomatic English. This appears to have been written by a European who is not a native speaker of English, and while it can be followed, it is very hard to read.  
This is not a criticism of the language skills of those not native to an English-speaking culture /country; clearly, they may well be excellent writers in their native language - but this article is in English, and as such should better reflect the "voice" of a native English speaker.  This article does not.
JohnWRClinton (talk) 19:31, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar / language / idiom 

message: Between the dates referenced in the article there were *five* winners of the constructors' championship - Maclaren, Williams, Ferrari, Renault and Benneton.
PDR  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.206.49.163 (talk) 22:49, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. DH85868993 (talk) 08:46, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The Big Four"  

message: Needs a mention, no?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.27.227.231 (talk) 13:40, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claire Williams 

message: Williams Grand Prix Engineering's debut race was the 1977 Spanish Grand Prix albeit being with a March chassis it still counts as the teams debut race, If its referring to the teams first race as a constructor then yes it's the 1978 Argentine Grand Prix, It should be separated like how the Tyrrell article is, were it shows the teams results separated from the constructors results. Speedy Question Mark (talk) 23:01, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: As an initial step, I've changed the "Debut" in the infobox to 1977 Spanish Grand Prix to match the "Races competed" value of 611. I've considered adding an extra infobox in the past and the main reason I haven't done so is that unlike Tyrrell (and Team Lotus which also has 2 infoboxes), for Williams, apart from "Debut" and "Races competed", most of the other fields in the two infoboxes (wins, poles, fastest laps, etc) would be exactly the same, and that felt like unnecessary duplication to me. An alternative approach would be to have one infobox with both "team" and "constructor" values in the "Debut" and "Races competed" fields, as shown at right. Thoughts? DH85868993 (talk) 00:52, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think your proposal is alright but its not consistent with the other articles like Tyrrell or Team Lotus, we should just compare the two options then get some other user to help find a conclusion. Speedy Question Mark (talk) 14:36, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Williams F1's Debut 

message: Now that the team name isn't anomore Williams F1 Team, Williams F1 seems outdated as the article title. The official team name is Williams Martini Racing but sponsors aren't included in article names. Their Twitter name is @WilliamsRacing and the company name is Williams Grand Prix Engineering Limited. So what's the best option for the article title, Williams F1, Williams Racing, Williams Grand Grix Engineering, or something else? --August90 (talk) 13:12, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say Williams Racing but that's just my opinion lets just wait until we will be able to reach a consensus with other user's before we change anything. Speedy Question Mark (talk) 16:46, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article title 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
*
*Support, Williams Grand Prix Engineering has always been the company name plus the article covers more than the F1 operations. --August90 (talk) 19:58, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Williams Grand Prix Engineering. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110707100129/http://www.attwilliams.com:80/news/view/1859 to http://www.attwilliams.com/news/view/1859
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20111203214900/http://www.attwilliams.com:80/news/view/2028 to http://www.attwilliams.com/news/view/2028
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120103215105/http://www.williamsf1.com/news/view/2035 to http://www.williamsf1.com/news/view/2035
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090106122432/http://www.formulatwo.com/f2carthef2car.aspx to http://www.formulatwo.com/f2carthef2car.aspx
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 23:23, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Williams Grand Prix Engineering. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20160101213916/http://www.castrol.com/castrol/managedlistingsection.do?categoryId=8262008&contentId=7014635 to http://www.castrol.com/castrol/managedlistingsection.do?categoryId=8262008&contentId=7014635
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 15:43, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Archive URL doesn't work, so I have replaced it with a working one. DH85868993 (talk) 04:13, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I've started copyedit on the article.  I hope this doesn't interrupt any end-of-year updates.  I expect to finish in a couple days, at which time I'll post my notes here. - Reidgreg (talk) 23:15, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  copyedit January 2017 

message: It’s definitely notable that Jamie Chadwick (female W-Series phenom) was hired as development driver. It’s shocking to see no mention of this. Alexvanburen69 (talk) 04:45, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you have noticed. If you can find a reliable source for that it can go in. Britmax (talk) 15:37, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add Development Driver 

message: Williams Racing Duracell F1 Team 180.195.204.66 (talk) 15:17, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a reliable source for that? Britmax (talk) 15:36, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  rename of 2022 williams f1 team