Talk:Analogy

message: I have replaced reported issues: from
 
 unfocused|date=April 2023 
 overly detailed|date=April 2023 
 technical|date=April 2023 
to 
 unfocused|date=April 2023 
 Cite sources|date=June 2023
I think the recent changes have addressed several of the relevant issues in the Talk about over-detailed and technical information, and also have improved the focus in most places (such as by adding a better definition, restructuring, pulling out a lot of material to another article.) So I think the article is in state now where its definition, head and structure are clear, and the worst bamboozling excesses removed; which perhaps leaves the nextmost pressing issue of uncited material.  However, if anyone thinks the technical/over detailed is still severe enough to be flagged, please go ahead and add them back.Rick Jelliffe (talk) 16:11, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiple Issues 

message: There were several discussions below on the unsatisfactory nature of the definition in the article head.
After a couple of attempts at improving the horrible sentence structure and flow, which made things a little better, but not enough to be useful, I have added as the initial definition the definition from the Oxford Companion to the English language: A comparison or correspondence between two things because of a third element that they are considered to share.  (I am not sure how to quote this correctly, so I just put it into double quotes, and gave the citation. Please adjust as appropriate.)  
I have also moved the intrusive Etymology to a separate section, as the article on metaphor has.
I have kept the old text, which is aimed at specialists too much, but added a statement about the classic form (A is to B as C is to D) which I think is useful because 1) is is clearer than words, 2) it shows the proportionality aspect (what the text calls analogy of identity, but which I think used to be analogia proportionalitatis.) 
Rick Jelliffe (talk) 07:56, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition 

message: 130.88.0.24 (talk) 22:42, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I have found a terser link and inserted it. The link is to a seminar overview. But Hofstadter also gives it as chapter 15 of the MIT book The analogical mind: perspectives from Cognitive Science which is in the references section. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 16:27, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vague reference 

message: Karol, you said that "philosophy" is too general a category. I could agree, but what do you suggest? Analogy comes to philosophy (1) from an argumentative tradition (in "logic", epistemology, metaphysics, ethics, legal theory...) and (2) from present day cognitive studies. It has also very strong (philosophical) connections to language and language related subjects. How should we put it? Actually, I'm starting to think that analogy is indeed a general philosophical subject... Velho 19:35, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is also a linguistic and theological topic.Rick Jelliffe (talk) 08:34, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update category? 

message: TWIC ("To Whom It Concerns"), this business with the different arrow directions between source and target has been a headache as long as I can remember, and works against communication between the various traditions, not to mention befuddling novice and expert readers alike.  I will work out a more neutral language for relating the different points of view.  Jon Awbrey 16:48, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the section "source and target" because
* it is fairly incomprehensible
* it is in the wrong position (certainly not the first section of the article): both because it is too technical and because it could be distributed to specific sections
* it is partial, not covering all cases
* it is uncited: while it has a lot of links to other Wikipedia articles, those articles do not support the statement, which means it needs a citation.
* the information in it seemed to be too obscure or low value: the idea that you go from "typically the more familiar area of experience to the more problematic area of experience" is, apart from the verbosity and being a commonplace of Aristotle, for example. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 08:43, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Different Strokes 

message: The section called "Aplications on Science and Engineering" is totally incomplete and lacks more analysis and many examples. This presentation underscores the importance that analogies have in the understanding and specially in the teaching of science and Engineering.  The article only mentions one of many analogies comparing "electrical circuits to hydraulics".  This is not only incomplete, but incorrect as well, since it compares a knowledge field (Hydraulics) to a physical system (electrical circuit); it should say something like: One of the most used analogies is the one comparing several electrical variables to their corresponding hydraulic ones, for example: Voltage is analogous to Pressure, while Current is analogous to fluid Flow, and Electrical Resistance is analogous to fluid flow Restriction (or "Pressure Drop")... therefore, the behaviour of a simple electrical circuit can be easily compared with the behaviour of a familiar and commonly known elevated water tank connected with piping to a lower reservoir, and in that way the modification of a given variable (like elevating the tank or changing the piping diameter) can be easily related and understood, which makes analogy use a powerful tool to predict the effect in an engineering analysis.
There are MANY analogies in Physics, extending between many disciplines, like the analogy of electrical Inductance to Mass (inertia) in an analogous Mechanical system and extending to several other fields. Thus, analogies between separate disciplines can help understand many different phenomena.  Just to mention one example: Resonance in the various fields of Acoustics, Mechanics  Electronics and even Optics.  Analogies can be either strong or "true" or approximate, or "weak", but anyhow useful and important.  As it is, the article remains very shallow is these sections. Amclaussen.
: I have made a minimal change: from "electrical circuits to hydraulics" to "electrical circuits to hydraulic circuits."  (I thought hydraulic systems would be better, but I see hydraulic circuit gets used as well.) Rick Jelliffe (talk) 16:49, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Very incomplete and unconclusive article in the Applications in Science and Engineering section

message: The first paragraph of this article made me cringe.  It was so overly complex and difficult to understand:
Analogy is both the cognitive process of transferring information from a particular subject (the analogue or source) to another particular subject (the target), and a linguistic expression corresponding to such a process. In a narrower sense, analogy is an inference or an argument from a particular to another particular, as opposed to deduction, induction, and abduction, where at least one of the premises or the conclusion is general. The word analogy can also refer to the relation between the source and the target themselves, which is often, though not necessarily, a similarity, as in the biological notion of analogy.
I changed the first paragraph to:
An analogy is the similarity between two things, which a comparison may be based. In biology it means to have a similar function but have a different structure and evolutionary origin.
The rest of the article probably reads just as badly, and is overly complex.  I added the  tag.
As a law student, I read complex/nasty legislation and cases everyday.  My job will be to interpret complex ideas and text.  This paragraph was even difficult for me to understand.
Travb (talk) 14:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: --Agreed, I am not sure if it was changed back or what, but the first paragraph is horrible.  Even for those looking for more than a definition, that is quite a confusing and seemingly random way to start an article about a word commonly used to mean "comparison" (slightly simplified, but basically true).Mfergason 14:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm sure the wording can be improved, but please notice that analogy isn't comparison nor similarity. The word analogy is subject to Wiktionary. In Wikipedia the philosophical and cognitive science subjects of analogy must be addressed. Velho 13:44, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, Analogy is not necessarily a simple comparison A is like B.  There is analogy of "proportionality" which means that "the relationship between A and B is like the relationship between X and Y, in some way": for example if you said "the relationship of monarch and subject is like the relation between parent and child": it is not even saying the monarch is directly like a parent or parent is like a monarch but the two relationships are (in some way) alike in that they have the same proportionality.Rick Jelliffe (talk) 06:32, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

text: OK, I bit the bullet and added a new first sentence, see #Definition above.Rick Jelliffe (talk) 16:33, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copy edit 

message: In logic, it is pretty obvious that analogy is simply two logical inferences: induction followed by deduction.
Suppose an analogy inference gives p(b) from p(a), this can be reduced to two inferences:
 By induction: p(a) -> p(x)   (constant a is generalised to a variable x)
 By deduction: p(x) -> p(b)   (variable x is specialised to a constant b)
where p is a predicate symbol, a and b are constants and x is a variable.  Clearly there also has to be some additional knowledge that specifies the domain.  Presumably the same approach can be extended to more complex logical formulae.  Pgr94 14:52, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Charles Sanders Peirce wrote something to this effect. Pgr94 15:46, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The article currently has subsections on reducing analogy to induction ("special case of induction") and reducing analogy to deduction ("Hidden deduction").  Both inferences are inadequate on their own, as you need both.  Not sure about the Juthe paper as it completely fails to mention Peirce who considered the problem nearly a century earlier!  Pgr94 07:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Analogy = induction + deduction 

message: Article refers to 'analogia', translates that as 'proportion'. Does that mean 'analogy' is related to neither 'ana' (as opposed to 'kata'), nor to 'logos'? Or does it simply not make sense to analyze it any further? --84.177.94.31 (talk) 09:52, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it means that 'ana' and 'logos' have wider/different meanings than any English term, so when combined they mean something that surprises us. I am surprised by it too, but it is correct that it means 'proportion'.  has an explanation.Rick Jelliffe (talk) 08:22, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  full analysis of word origin? 

message: Analogy is both the cognitive process of transferring information from a particular subject (the analogue or source) to another particular subject (the target).
I cannot see in what sense a source and a target can be a subject, and
I cannot see how meaning and information can be transferred without knowing at all what information and meaning are, whether they are possible to transfer at all. Like I assume that you are talking about discourse, texts written in a natural language and infomration and meaning are related to those tools.
:It is horrible. Information is not "transferred" at all, in any idiomatic English sense of "transferring". "Applying" or "asserting" or "arguing" or "positing" or "recognizing" would be better. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 06:40, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: In an attempt to be less confusing, I have replaced "from" with "on" and "to" with "onto". This is because transfer denotes that the thing transferred has been removed from its source, which is not the case. I would prefer to use transfer in some way. (I still don't like information/meaning.) Also separated the confusing long sentence by using semi-colon.  Please revert if this has made things worse, of course! Rick Jelliffe (talk) 06:53, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

text: OK, I think I can see where the "transferring" terminology comes from: it belongs to the "meta" in "metaphor". Which raises the possibility that it is bogus when describing analogy (outside a direct comparison with metaphor, I guess)...Rick Jelliffe (talk) 08:25, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Subject or Object

message: I have added as section on religion, and given some material in a Catholic section: analogy plays a essential role in theology (according to various recent Popes and theologians) but there is very little material for laymen or on the WWW on it.  I am working on a full article on the analogia entis which I will link to when it is up: it is a real gap in Wikipedia, probably because it is so often mentioned only in passing or is an under-the-hood assumption in Catholic material. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 02:36, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Added section on Religion

message: In section Analogy#Analogy and complexity, both Kolmogorov complexity and minimum description length is mentioned. In the text, analogical reasoning is implemented by searching for a description (or program) that minimizes some sum of Kolmogorov complexities. 
Kolmogorov complexity depends on the description/programming language to be used to describe the various parts of source and target.called "existing part (S)", "missing part (R)", "relation between them (B)", "local theory (M)" in the article - I'm not sure I understand their intended meaning The existence of a fixed bound  ≤ c1,2, for arbitrary universal programming languages 1 and 2, an appropriate constant c1,2 and every program p,This property usually appears in textbooks, meaning Kolmogorov complexity is asymptotically language independent. However, in applications where short programs are to be considered, asymptotic properties are useless. is of no help in establishing that the same program will lead to minimum complexity, no matter in which language it is expressed. 
As an example, consider a Turing-complete language ("language 0") that is even more verbose than Cobol, let language 1 be obtained from 0 by adding a very short language construct (say, just "+", as usual) to express addition, and let language 2 be a similar extension of language 0 to express multiplication briefly (say "*"). Then consider the analogy "2 is to 4 as 3 to ?". In language 1, the shortest program will be a description of "x is to x+x" for both source ("2 is to 4") and target ("3 is to ?"), so "?" will be answered as "6". In language 2, the shortest program will amount to "x is to x*x" for both, leading to "? = 9". 
So I wonder if the Kolmogorov approach to analogical reasoning depends on the programming language, or not. Likewise, when minimum description length (apparently slightly different from Kolmogorov complexity) is used instead, what about language dependence then? - Jochen Burghardt (talk) 19:42, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Analogy and complexity: language independence of complexity measure? 

message: What is Analogy 115.147.61.243 (talk) 09:04, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  English 

message: I have marked an uncited paragraph which claims there was no systematic treatment of analogy since Cajetan as dubious. (... perhaps I should have marked it as uncited.) Rick Jelliffe (talk) 05:52, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious 

message: There were two very large sections related to Structure Mapping Theory. 
* One set in the Shared Structure section related really to AI/Computer science, so I moved those paragraphs to that subsection. 
* Another large set under Psychology really was unnecessary details on Structure Mapping, with little concerning analogy per se: I have moved it all to the page on Structure mapping. I have kept some paragraphs, which are therefore duplicates, so that the gist/overview is still on the analogy page.
I did these moves boldly, because of the tags that the article had too much tangential etc information. I think it allows the reader to be less bogged down by information that is not quite related to the topic.
Rick Jelliffe (talk) 12:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Structure-Mapping Theory