Talk:Ketuanan Melayu

message: being a malaysian, i've never learnt anything much about this in 5 years of malaysian history, from form 1 to form 5. well, there is this particular issue in the textbooks, but there's never been anything about the causes of the may 13 riots.. including the cause of singapore's separation. one point to say though, i've been skeptically thinking if the government's trying to censor/confuse the issue from the education syllabus, as a way to brainwash the newer batch of generation after 1969 that nep is a justification. 
not going to talk much about this.. since this is well under there borders of ISA. emm.. requesting the article internal security act to be put under see also category.. and well done johnleem, if i've not mistaken! Sandakanboy 18:27, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  great article , double thumb-ups, would request to come back as 'good article'? 

message: This article clearly needs much improvement, such as sections on historical importance, further explanation on the controversy and counter-arguments against the notion, bibliography etc. In comparison to other articles listed as "good articles", this one stands as one of the poorest (even in comparison to articles about very specific notions), so I am delisting it until it reaches a certain level of excellence. (No harm intended) --Kripkenstein 04:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delisting as "good article" 

message: I have removed the following from the article, as I think it is starting to drift from the focus of its section, the rise of the Malay rights movement.
Some historians have pinpointed this as the incident that made Chinese keenly aware of the need for political representation in Malaya, attributing to it the formation of the Malayan Chinese Association (MCA) — a communal political party. (Ye, p. 34.) Others, however, argue that the main driving force behind non-Malay involvement in Malayan politics was the increasing number of local-born non-Malays. The same report from the British Permanent Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies cited earlier said that "Those who have been born in Malaya themselves, or whose children have been born there... state that in a great many cases those concerned have never seen the land of their origin and they claim that their children and their children's children should have fair treatment." (Hwang, p. 25.)
Kimchi.sg | talk 17:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it is relevant, since the MCA was the first to challenge the idea that only the Malays could be sovereign over Malaya. I put this back in the article some time ago with hopefully a few sentences that made the importance of this paragraph clearer. Johnleemk | Talk 17:24, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed the following from article 

message: It would be good if the caption for this image included the text of interest, since you can't read it in the thumb and it is also very hard to make out in the large version.--Peta 05:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. Done. Johnleemk | Talk 17:01, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Real estate pic

message: A bit OT I know but I just came across this and I'd have to say well done! To be honest, I never expected a Malaysian article especially one on something like this to make FA grade anytime soon. Malaysia boleh :-P Let's just hope it survives November 4th! Nil Einne 20:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: & looking through the edit history it appears to largely be User:Johnleemk who has made this article what it is, so well done. Incidentally, it might be an idea for us to at least get a stub Malay version of this article up before the 4th. I'll try and do it if I have the time... Nil Einne 01:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's not the first Malaysian FA. I've a feeling that honour belongs to Article 153 of the Malaysian Constitution, though Second Malaysia Plan was featured fairly soon afterwards. GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 00:30, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

text: BTW, I began the translation to the Malay wiki. I only did the intro and given that it took me 4 hours or so for that I don't think I'll be doing any more but we at least have something for when this is featured. Although the French wiki did beat us :-P Nil Einne 14:43, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks. I did some minor copyediting on the Malay - hope you don't mind. It's rather tedious translating, though. I'd like to rewrite things from scratch in Malay, but alas - my Malay isn't very good. (I may be good at speaking colloquial Malay, but writing is a whole different matter.) Johnleemk | Talk 16:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Well done 

message: :His administration began the practice of "meritocracy", which Mahathir had tentatively proposed earlier. Under meritocracy, university admissions quotas were eliminated and replaced with a two-track pre-university stream; one course prepared students for the Sijil Tinggi Persekolahan Malaysia (STPM) standardised examination, lasting two years; the other consisted of various matriculation courses graded by individual lecturers and typically lasting a year.
From memory, the matriculation system was always in place and was always dominated by the Malays with the non-Malays usually doing STPM. Didn't the meritocracy just remove the quotas? The difference in the 2 systems obviously creates the potential for imbalance but if I'm right it's a bit misleading to say the two-track system replaced the quotas... Nil Einne 02:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll get to work on the language. I probably misunderstood what the sources were saying. Sorry! Johnleemk | Talk 14:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Replace 

message: I notice the form "ketuanan Melayu" is used throughout the article. Is this correct? If so, should a disclaimer stating the first letter is capitalized due to technical restrictions be added to the top of the article? Irongargoyle 03:45, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nah, it's just that "ketuanan" isn't a proper noun, hence it is capitalized in the title but not in the middle of sentences in the article. - KingRaptor 04:16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Capitalization

message: I do recall just about a month or so ago, there was an open diplomatic dispute ignited by Lee Kuan Yew when he singled out Malaysia and Indonesia for having policies which disadvantage the ethnic Chinese or something like that? If the media is to be trusted, I recall it also sparked another debate on policies inspired by the Ketuanan Melayu concept? Should this be worthy for inclusion here?--Huaiwei 13:37, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be rather reluctant to pile on more material in an article that is already (IMHO) quite large. The diplomatic incident was certainly notable, but not really remarkable in the long term; it doesn't illustrate a point not already in the article, and it didn't have much of an impact on the political scene. Johnleemk | Talk 15:18, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It may be notable that this issue remains volatile in current contexts, thou. And I believe the tense climate as a result of this remark was made worse when that report on the ethnic economic dominance appears not too long after?--Huaiwei 15:58, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so - at least that's not an opinion held by any of the news sources I've been following. I added a short paragraph on that, though, as well as another one on a recent criticism of Bangsa Malaysia and meritocracy by the head of the Johor government. Johnleemk | Talk 15:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: dont u ppl have a referrence dude? heh why do you ppl use the referrence better than using ur brain.--Tearfate 01:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent furore

message: Since this got on the main page, it's been facing a whirlpool and tempests of highly charged and polemic users who subvert the article one way or another. Mainly the problem right now is bad grammar. It's changing faster than we can manage it. John Riemann Soong 17:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  cleanup 

message: I dont find any reference of the main stream media from this articles, all u ppl did was putting the anti-gov and racist ppl book into the contents, and furthermore, is small changes meaning vandalisme in wikipedia? and the title of this article should be like "all race agree with ketuanan melayu" or "Malay is the master of Malaysia" , i think the second one is better, since the ketuanan melayu is malay word,it can only be use by malay, if the non-malaysian should use english,eversince they prefer to english better than malay.--Tearfate 01:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: False or Truth?

message: from article: "Although natives of Borneo were denied the privileges of Malays, merger was effected on September 16, 1963."
can the author verify the bolded parts? thanks. kawaputra 09:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That the natives of Borneo were not granted Article 153 privileges is implied by footnote #112, which is the source for the constitutional amendments post-May 13. These amendments extended the previously Malay-only privileges to the natives of Sabah and Sarawak. I did not use this footnote for the sentence in dispute because it was not directly relevant, and only implied that no such privileges were extant at the time of merger. Johnleemk | Talk 07:41, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, ok. i shall read up on it. thanks. kawaputratok2me 15:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger - is this true?

message: I reverted the edit deleting citations because:
*Dead links should not be removed because they are a record of what sources were used; the fact that they do not exist anymore does not change the fact that they are the sources (I attempted to look them up when they went dead, but virtually all are not in Google's cache nor in the Internet Archive)
*There is no policy that subscription-only web news content should be accessible; you need to buy a newspaper to read it, so if you're going to ban online newspapers that require you to buy them as inaccessible, don't permit citations of meatspace non-free newspapers either
A little common sense in these matters goes a long way. Johnleemk | Talk 17:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, all right. But editors involved should record the date when the link was found to be inactive, or better yet strive to find a replacement source. — Bluerです。 なにか? 11:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: --Allie 23:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  edits fixed 

message: An editor just removed this template from the article. I'm not reverting yet because I'm really of two minds about this; on the one hand, it's hard to describe Malay supremacy as a form of legal discrimination, but on the other, it's certainly some sort of discrimination, if only in terms of demeaning the de facto value of Malaysian citizenship (since de jure under Article 8 all Malaysian citizens are entitled to equal protection of the law). What do other editors think? Johnleemk | Talk 16:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Atm, Im leaning towards removing the template as the definition of KM does not directly indicate form of discrimination. If it was NEP, or something like that then yes. For this article maybe we can just put some relevant categories on discrimination here. ќמшמφטтгמtorque 08:44, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Template:Discrimination sidebar]] 

message: The article tries to re-write history, while manipulating the references. The article is seditious and misleading. You forgot to include Tun Sambathan’s remarks after the independence, and the fact that 13th May only happened in 1969. In fact, 13th May only started after the Chinese made racial slurs during a rally, and you also left out the part whereby the Chinese too slaughtered the Malays. This is a one sided article and a political agenda made by individuals for a one sided party. If Wikipedia wants this article, then it is an insult to Malaysia and its people. If the writer thinks his article is not racist, then make your article and your good self public. 
Wikipedia should not a keep or even post a bias article. 
liyana hasnan
--Liyana h (talk) 15:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Insult? Wow. Malaysians are easily insulted. __earth (Talk) 15:18, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not more or less than anyone else. But they have a tendency to not like people pointing out that certain articles of their constitution are by defintion racist, not to mention the worst example of unbridled w@nk. A shame and a blight on an otherwise fantastic country, and the overall amazing and fantastic people who live in it. And for the record, I find the article as of August 2009 to be excellent. 203.206.113.224 (talk) 13:49, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  One sided view article 

message: The image :Image:Gerakan celebrate after 1969 election.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
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The following images also have this problem:
*:      Image:Protest against Malayan Union.jpg
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --01:09, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Gerakan celebrate after 1969 election.jpg

message: Ketuanan melayu or malay supremacy that been refer as malay is the superior and other races is a slave is' 'not relevant anymore in todays world. The old concept is a colonial based thinking that been used a long time ago by western colonialist. It is proved that all races in Malaysia have an equal opportunity in gaining their economy status. The Ketuanan melayu concept has been manipulated by some political parties for their own political sake. This is because from their point of view, they can be a warrior of their races if they can demolished this concept. In real life, this concept didn't gave any disadvantage for their race. Moreover, many benefit that they has obtained by being a Malaysian. The articel 153 in Malaysia constitution or Malay supremacy concept is just a piece of leftover to show that malay people is the owner of Malaysia before independent. It is a small piece of advantages after agreeing to share their homeland with other races. That is why all people need to know what is the real meaning of malay supremacy before they make any conclusion.   
: "It is proved that all races in Malaysia have an equal opportunity in gaining their economy status." - Really? Where is this Proof you mention? I visit Malaysia regularly and I actually see that a great deal of Racism and discrimination in the name of affirmative action still takes place on a day to day basis - Any time anyone questions this racism politically some politician almost invariably answers with veiled or open threats calling for a bloodbath. Sorry, but the blatant discrimination Ketuanan Melayu advocates is not "small advantages" and "not relevant" as you would put it - it's very relevant and very worthy of documenting here on Wikipedia where anyone on the planet who cares to access this information can access it. 134.115.68.21 (talk) 04:17, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why Ketuanan Melayu 

message: I removed the following paragraph:
However, Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi explained that Ketuanan Melayu (Malay supremacy) is not about the Malays being in a position to dominate, rule over and force their power upon other races, said Prime Minister. He said Malay supremacy meant that the Malays, as the indigenous people in Malaysia, needed to strengthen themselves to ensure they were successful and developed.  If they are not successful and developed, then they are not tuan (masters), therefore they will be coolies. I am sure we do not want to become coolies who do not play any role in development because we are weak and not able.  So when we talk about that (Malay supremacy), we mean we must be successful in many fields. It is never about ruling over others, or forcing our power upon them.
Apparently, the tone and style of this paragraph would suit better with one section within the paragraph. Take a look again at Wikipedia:Lead section. Failing which, this will make the article fall short of Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. Beware; featured articles can be demoted if repeated edits downgrade the quality of the article--just take a look at Victoria of the United Kingdom, an excellent example. You may also see Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment for the grading assessment remarks.Mr Tan (talk) 13:26, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of 4th lead paragraph

message: This article is categorised as racism and included in a template about racism yet "racist" is only mentioned once briefly in the article and "racism" never. This discrepancy should be resolved one way or another. Munci (talk) 17:08, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racism 

message: These guys are now in the news for half a year now, and this article hasn't mentioned anything about it? I'm beginning to think this page no longer deserves the featured article title because it's no longer up-to-date with the times. - 60.49.106.93 (talk) 08:16, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  No [[Perkasa]]? 

message: I removed the Racial discrimination section just now diff - it had no refs and was written in a very POV way, neither of which was appropriate for a FA. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 11:14, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your edit. As much as I've seen the discrimination against non-Malay ethnicities in Malaysia first hand, and agree that the removed content may well be accurate, it must not be backed by Original Research, must not be presented in a POV manner, and must be verifiable by reliable sources, as per Wikipedia Policy. If someone wants to put it back in, they should ensure those criteria are met. Xlh (talk) 06:57, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed a section 

message: in terms of understanding the concept of ketuanan melayu as a form of nationalist supremacy, some translates it to be a form of statement that announces sovereignty instead of "supremacy", which easily bring forth negative connotations if read through the eyes of a third party observer. When explained in terms of rights to sovereignty for the settlers of the land (as in the case of settlers of British island that confirms their sovereignty over the land, or "settlers' of Englishman in what is now called the united states of America). Even if some historians that claims to experience first-hand the issues discussed,  bias towards a certain ideals or tone in writing cannot be avoided. I would suggest better views or more balanced comparison in explaining how the concept is understood by people who suggest it and also by people who opposed it, with emphasis given on different views by people of different generation and how each generation perceives it. For the most part, people are too easy to allow themselves to second-guess and thus judge such sensitive issues behind a desk or in front of an article. I will not oppose if this article is judged as misleading and biased, thus could be viewed as an attempt to re-write history. But the article should not be removed, instead should present more balanced views. Even an amateur historian could see the nuances in the writing that is ambiguous in tone and easy to misleads.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anjang Akuan (talk • contribs) 16:34, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This not about some vague or abstract academic concept. Ketuanan Melayu, and the institutionalised racism it promotes goes to the very core of Malaysian society in a very practical way, and promotes racism both in favour of and to the detriment of, all of Malaysia's major ethnic groups. Until those practical concerns are addressed, the abstract and academic concept of Ketuanan Melayu will continue to be viewed by both Malaysians and Foriegners in socio-economic, if not Marxist, terms. In any case this is not a forum in which you are entitled to argue if discrimination in Malaysia is appropriate to document or not, or whether people are right to link the two concepts or not. Instead this page is to discuss issues of article quality as it relates to adherence to Wikipedia policy. 59.191.225.49 (talk) 04:06, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  balanced view instead of Marxist analysis 

message: It is stated in the article that "Ketuanan Melayu" is translated as "Malay Ownership", I believe that this is etymologically incorrect, the proper translation should be "Malay Lordship", as Tuan brings in the connotation of master or overlord, rather than  a "Pemilik" (owner). 
Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka is the authoritative body for the Malay language in Malaysia and the definition of "Ketuanan" given by as overlordship
source: http://prpm.dbp.gov.my/Search.aspx?k=ketuanan
175.137.224.245 (talk) 09:50, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Malay Language Definition for "Ketuanan Melayu" 

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message: I have removed the POV tag. It was there for a year without any explanation about what the perceived problem was. If you think this article has a problem, please bring it up here on Talk. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:35, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV tag 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In the lead section of this article it is stated: "The Malays of Malaysia claimed a special position and special rights owing to their long domicile"... 'Long' is always relative. The 1980's were a long time ago. Dinosaurs lived a long time ago. Did dinosaurs live during the 1980's? Or how long is a piece of string? So we can see that it's usually prudent to specify to which thing a relative term relates. So the long domicile of the Malays is relative to whom? I presume what was meant to be written is that the domicile is longer than that of those who are marginalised by Ketuanan Melayu; i.e. the Malaysian Chinese and Malaysian Indians. But to my understanding (which may be wrong), those with not just a long domicile but an original domicile would find this statement laughable. Isn't the domicile of the Malays merely less short that the domicile of the Malaysian Chinese and Indians, from the perspective of, say, the Dayak? This is a genuine question as I don't have the knowledge. I'm not Malaysian and I've never been Malaysian. I also say this to show I have no personal stake in the matter. What I propose is adding a footnote to clarify that "long" is relative to the aforementioned minorities, or to replace "long" with an absolute estimate of the approximate year that Malay domicile began. Ypna (talk) 10:21, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you know the Dayaks perceive the domicile of the Malays merely less short that the domicile of the Malaysian Chinese and Indians? 103.146.63.51 (talk) 00:09, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vague tag: "long domicile" 

message: Upon reviewing this article for WP:URFA/2020, I noticed that  added an "update needed" banner in August. I agree with this description: there is no information on how or if this concept is implemented post-2009. I am also concerned that some sections are very large, possibly a sign of bloating; these sections can possibly be summarized or have unnecessary details removed. There are also uncited sentences, and with an article as sensitive as this I think these should be addressed or removed. Is anyone interested in fixing up this article? Z1720 (talk) 14:24, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconding these comments—the orange tag is valid, and the amount of uncited material throughout is cause for concern. I'm also drawn to how huge this article is; at 15,000 words and ~95kb in size it absolutely should be split into more than one article per WP:SIZESPLIT. There's potential to debate what should stay and what should be spun out and summarised here but I would suggest that headings 2, 3, and 4 (Pre-independence; Independence and Malaysia; and 13 May and the New Economic Policy) would benefit from being condensed here and more in-depth material being moved elsewhere. Also seeing no alt text for MOS:ACCIM compliance which should be addressed. Given the existence of an orange-level tag with no remedy for several months now and concerns related to this being raised on the talk page for longer still (I note an eleven-year-old section above raising the absence of a related political movement, still not mentioned in the article) I think this is looking at a potential review of its featured status. ᵹʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 21:26, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks both. Although the lack of updates for the last several governments is the main issue, would also soft support some information being moved if there are more appropriate articles, as long as it doesn't compromise the quality and detail of this one. I don't think I have enough knowledge of the topic to offer to update it, so hope someone else will. Arcahaeoindris (talk) 18:46, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  FA concerns