Talk:Kåre Willoch

message: Is the Dano-Norwegian letter "å" visible for readers with an English keyboard or computer setup? Otherwise maybe Mr. Willoch's name should be "Kare" or "Kaare". --Jakro64 08:37, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Norwegian "å" letter

message: The link provided by the anonymous editor (http://www.document.no/weblogg/archives/005149.html), does not accuse Willoch of antisemitism; quite to the contrary it warns him not to contribute to something he wouldn't want to be a part of.  Hence, thre is no basis for saying that such accusations have made against him.  Also, characterizing Vanunu as a "convicted traitor" is indeed NPOV.  Vanunu was convicted of treason, and that is why Willoch wants to provide him with amnesty.  --Leifern 17:15, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
"Jødehateren Kåre Willoch og hans venner må stoppes før jøder blir drept på Oslos gater." (Erez Uriely)  (Erez Uriely is leader of "Norsk Israel Senter", Norwegian Israel Centre)
:Erez Uzriely has been expelled by the synagogue in Oslo, has been denounced by the Norwegian center against antisemitism, and gets no credit from any mainstream Israeli advocacy group.  The fact that Vanunu has been offered a position as "rector" at Glasgow University is irrelevant to the fact that Willoch wants to grant him "political asylum" in Norway.  It's the fact that Israel considers him a criminal that is the salient fact.  Anyone who wants to read the controvery around Vanunu need only click to the article about him.  --Leifern 11:11, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
::Still, Erez Uriely is a person who hold an opinion, and he frequently write articles in Norwegians newspapers and is well known to the general public and seems to enjoy recognition for his work (here he is seen with an under-secretary of state), and especially from the more extreme pro-Israel right wing in Norway (DLF, FOMI etc.). The Simon Wiesenthal Center supported Uriely after he was expelled from the Kristallnacht commemoration. Also, he is of course not the only one who has said Willoch is anti-semitic. Btw., which Norwegian center against anti-semitism are you talking about? The center Uriely represents call itself "Norwegian Israel Centre against anti-semitism".  Its website is found at http://www.norskisraelsenter.no
:::Norsk senter mot antisemittisme, led by Christine Mohn.  All you have to do is read the coverage of the latest Kristallnacht controversy.  Erez Uriely is way out of the mainstream, and it would be libelous to imply that pro-Israeli groups routinely denounce Willoch as antisemitic.  If you want to make the point that people question his motives, you can phrase something along those lines.  Also, Vanunu can be described in many ways, such as "recently converted Christian," "David Ben-Gurion University graduate," "Moroccan-born," "Kennedy assassination conspiracy theorist," etc.  None of these is relevant to why Willoch wants him to be granted political asylum.  The salient point is that Vanunu was convicted for revealing state secrets, a treasonous act in any country, also Norway.  Please register and sign.  --Leifern June 30, 2005 10:19 (UTC)
::::It is perhaps a little late, but that was not the salient point, and still is not.  It relates to Norwegian involvement in, and Israeli nuclear proliferation, which is what Vanunu provided confirmatory and to a degree quantitative information on, to the rest of the world.  I doubt that Willoch's reason turned on Israeli criminal law so much as on the obvious political impact and relevance of the offer.  It is not an insignificant matter.  Midgley 18:04, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vanunu/Antisemitism 

message: "His government instituted a number of reforms to reverse social democratic policies that have proven to be durable. "
Doesn't work really - if they were reversed, they were thereby proved not to be durable.  A simpler construction such as "His government  reversed several social democratic policies which have not been reimplemented" would mean one thing, and 
His government reversed several longstanding social democratic policies."  Would mean another. 
"Enduring reforms" would be a possibility, also. 
I think I simply took that to be a revert, I suspect it was, with then some new edits added before it was saved.  DOing it in stages and adding an edit summary might have avoided that impression.  Midgley 04:23, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Midgley, some of your translations are actually correct; but you should keep in mind that all official Norwegian titles, political subdivisions, etc., have official English translations already. These should obviously be used. --Leifern 02:33, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Which, being a reference useful for all non-Norwegian readers on teh English WP it will be useful to know the location of.  Midgley 17:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits 

message: "From: 	Fredrik S. HEFFERMEHL 
*  NFR: www.nowar.no or IPB: www.ipb.org             *
*                                                                   *
*  Hon. President, Norwegian Peace Alliance            *
*  Vice President, International Peace Bureau         *
*  Vice Pres., I Assn. Lawyers Ag. Nuclear Arms        *
*  International Free Vanunu Committee                 *
To: 	Midgley 
Subject: 	Re: Vanunu: definite reference to Kare Willoch supporting his  application for asylum in Norway?
Date: 	Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:16:46 +0100  (08:16 GMT)
...
> Is it possible to point me to one, please?
...
The source is a daily newspaper, Klassekampen, that on Oct. 12, 2004 carried
the article below. The given excerpt translates as follows:
- Norway is partly responsible for Vanunu´s situation because of our naive heavy water support to Israel, says former prime minister Kåre Willoch to Klassekampen. In his opinion Norway has a moral obligation to offer protection to this Israeli citizen. Vanunu was released from prison in April this year after serving 18 years for revealing Israel's nuclear secrets while working at the Dinamo reactor. He was kept in solitary confinement for over twelve years. Norwegian heavy water was used to manufacture nuclear weapons at the reactor. Last Friday it became known that the Israeli nuclear technician had sought asylum in Norway.
- I would be surprised if he does not get protection, Mr. Willoch said.
Norwegian version:
- Norge er delansvarlig i Mordechai Vanunus situasjon på grunn av vår naive tungtvann-støtte til Israel, sier Kåre Willoch til Klassekampen. Han mener Norge har en moralsk plikt til å gi den israelske statsborgeren beskyttelse. Vanunu slapp ut av fengsel i april i år, etter å ha sonet i 18 år for å ha avslørt Israels atomhemmeligheter da han var ansatt ved Dinamo-reaktoren. I over tolv år satt han i isolat. Norsk tungtvann ble brukt til å produsere atomvåpnene ved reaktoren. På fredag ble det kjent at den israelske atomteknikeren har søkt om politisk asyl i Norge.
- Jeg blir overrasket hvis han ikke får beskyttelse, sier Willoch.
Midgley 15:00, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vanunu support source reference and text 

message: Throughout his long and illustrious political career, Willoch has made a great number of quotes on many subjects. His interest in the Arab-Israeli conflict also includes consideration of several topics; Israel's nuclear profile is one of them, and among the least covered. If you want to weigh in on the issue of Israel's nuclear arms, please go to the relevant articles on that topic. --Leifern 20:00, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So, an even-handed appraoch to the many subjects in his illustrious career - leave all of them out of the article, by removing the one that was in there, rather than adding any others.  Is there any reason why this doesn't get a POV tag for being written from the POV of the Israeli embassy?  Midgley 22:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I grew up admiring Willoch; his son Dag was my roommate for three months in the military; I have read numerous articles by and about him; we have numerous mutual acquaintances; I have met the man. Everything I have written about him I have cited and referenced. I have no idea what opinion the "Israeli embassy" has about Willoch. Everything is factual and presented neutrally. I can't imagine he would disagree with anything that has been written here, though I think he would agree with me that his political career is broader and far more diverse than the article gives him credit for. --Leifern 00:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Israeli embassy would appear to prefer that no mention of nuclear weapons appear; that Mordechai Vanunu's name never appear without their point of view (treachery) being attached to it regardless of context, and it appears, explicitly:-
"In a statement former prime minister of Norway Kaare Willoch praised the initiative and gave his warm support. Pointing to the fact that nuclear weapons may jeopardize Israeli security when other countries get similar capabilities, he added that "this is an important recognition of a man who chose to follow his own conscience and the loyalty to mankind". This is good, Mr. Willoch said.
At the official ceremony in Tromsoe on May 15, with the 1995 Nobel laureate Sir Joseph Rotblat as the main speaker, Meir Vanunu will receive the honors on behalf of his brother. An appeal by the University to the Israeli authorities that Vanunu was entitled to his freedom and should be released for the ceremony had been refused.
The Israeli embassy in Oslo yesterday denounced the decision in sharp language, calling it a peculiar action. "
http://www.ialana.net/press_release.htm
But perhaps all the other policies and actions in the article are so much more significant to general readers of the English WP that they have driven out any mention of this matter.  One of the benefits of links to famous people is that one could ask them direct questions. Midgley 00:53, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

text: There is nothing in the press release that would lead anyone to believe that the Israeli embassy in Oslo would not have Vanunu mentioned. And the quote you refer to, Willoch lends support to something the University of Tromsø decided to do. So how many different quotes by Willoch should I find? There is no question that Willoch is critical to Israel, and his quotes are representative. And it is not a matter of opinion what Vanunu was convicted for. --Leifern 03:33, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Willoch was prime minister of Norway among other ministerial posts, a leader of the Conservative party, and one of the most recognizable public figures in Post Word War II history. And you think this article is non-notable? --Leifern 11:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But what did he _do_?  He reversed some policies of someone else... which policies?  Why?  What were the elections fought on?  The only information the article has contined about any actual individual acts or policies or opinions of the subject has been removed - so what is to replace it? Midgley 11:51, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quote from blog article 

message: Willoch, Kåre. Minner og meninger. I. Til slutten av sosialdemokratiets storhetstid - i 1965. 1988. NOK 150
Willoch, Kåre.. - Nævdal, Bodil. Dager etter dette. Et politisk portrett av Kåre Willoch. 1987. NOK 200
Willock, Kåre.. Debattskrift til Kåre Willoch 3. oktober 1993. Redaksjon: Børge Brende, Kristin Clemet, Erling Norvik og Svenn Stray. 1993. NOK 150
Among the attributes an author is notable for, are the subjects of their books, and even the titles of their books.  Midgley 16:37, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A number of books... 

message: There is no basis for the assertion that Willoch is or ever was a "supply side economist," or that anyone characterized him that way. Please see Supply-side economics for an introduction. --Leifern 17:28, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, and as much for the record as anything, when I added that capsule descriptor, I linked it to Supply-side economics.  I'm not an oeconomist myself, but neitehr am I in the habit of linking an article to something the contents of which I neither have an apprehension of nor check.  I this case both applied, as they normally would.Midgley 18:41, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Probably mis-clipboarded.  Well-spotted.  I'd say I'd reported/intended to report the NYT's characterisation of him, which I suspect really only divides economists into two sorts, the supply-side and the demand-side.  No doubt neither is found in the pure form in the real world, and also no doubt the particular economic views of a prime minister with an economics degree who is regarded as having been strong on economics deserve a deeper exposition.  but every journey starts with a single step, and most books start with two words.  The NYT is regarded as a paper of record, and has a responsible attitude to being told that they have misdescribed people, particularly I suspect prime ministers.  if they have not corrected their description yet perhaps they might be invited to, or perhaps WP should include "rather thena the NYT's misleading characterisation of him as a supply-side economist, he was in office actually a ..." Midgley 18:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Supply side 

message: a picture.
Also his views on security, quite recently, would go well under a heading like "Post-Parliamentary Career" but less well under "post-Political Career".  
And of course his statesman-like views on the Middle East and Norway's responsibility for nuclear proliferation are more political than post-political.  
The article is coming on apace.
Maggie's, which has to be a model, dwells on her relationships with other world leaders.  In her case Ronald Reagan is the key one.  The article would usefully include information on the formative or politically significant relationships with other Scandinations and the US and UK.  Was his relationship with the Israeli head of state different while PM than later?  
Midgley 18:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needs 

message: Willoch has a long record of sober critizism of Israel. Clearly, some pro-Israel people are trying to make him seem more extreme than he really is here. For instance: when he is quoted as saying that Israel is "creating terror" it sounds horrible, but his real viewpoint as stated in the source is the quite common assumption that the poverty and frustrated situation in the palestinian areas due to the occupation, will probably create more palestinian terror. Hardly very controversial? In the "ethnic cleansing" part, the one writing it has not bothered to look for the original statement, but he merly refers to the website of an hysterical pro-isralel fringe-organization. Given the short account of KW's voluminous contribution to this debate, it is really unfair to use sources like this. If you want to write anything about it, try to be fair and balanced (like fox news at least), look up his original statements, quote them in context, or take it somewhere else. This is an encyclopedia. pertn 07:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Sober criticism" Willoch's views are not. And his condemnation clearly go well beyond the Six-Day War . The man is rapidly against Israel. I'm reverting. --Leifern 20:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These passages that I have mentioned above are so clearly tainted by the fact that they are written by people that want to paint a picture of him as extreme. Clearly you are one of them. The phrase "condemnation of Israel" is actually quite meaningless, and says nothing about his political viewpoints. He critizises Israeli politics, mainly the occupation and the abuse of power. The sentence you propose is just a vulgarization of his statements, and it is clearly a vulgarization which is in line with what his opponents want to think of him. I am critical, and even willing to condemn, GW Bush's international policy, but I do not "Condemn the USA", and I certainly do not see it as the role of an encyclopedia to make such hostile simplifications of complex arguments. I am reverting back. If you REALLY want to make an issue out of your right to label his argumentation as "condemnation of Israel", go ahead and make my day! :)pertn 13:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no reason to think or suggest he is anything but sober, but oddly Leifern is right in choosing the root condemn rather than critic.  Willoch, visibly, condemned Israel for actions in the West Bank and Gaza.  "Condemnation of" is a stylistically poor way of going at it though. So, he was sober, and got in ahead of the rush.  Midgley 21:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Willoch issues regular op-ed articles in which he questions basic tenets of Israel's right to exist, talking of "murderous policies" and "Jewish terrorists." I have in vain tried to find a single op-ed that he has written that does anything but cast Israel, its people, and leaders in a positive light. He condemns Israel. --Leifern 22:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with midgley here. I could accept the word condemn, as he certainly condemns violence and occupation, but I have a feeling that you should leave it up to someone else to write this, Leifern. Obviously you have a lot on your heart here. I think "willoch condemns Israel" does not at all give credit to the complexity of the arguments of this very eloquent politician. pertn 12:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Eloquent like, well, forget about comparisons. I'll collect some of his quotes, and we can see what the right characteristic is. I'm incredibly disappointed that a politician I've so long admired has made hate and bigoted populism part of his repertoire, so I don't want him whitewashed. But it's got to be accurate, of course. --Leifern 13:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Just picked a summary from one of his op-eds. Sounds like an extremist condemning Israel and questioning Israel's right to exist, right? I Quote: "To me it is horrifying that Israel’s use of force strengthens religious fanaticism and extremism amongst hundreds of millions, and hereby increases the danger of a catastrophe for Israel itself. One has to end this hatred, but this can only be successful if Israel recognizes the right of the Palestinians of their own state in accordance with UN resolutions, and end all violence that is not warranted by international law and the human rights. There is no disagreement in Norwegian debate that one has to demand that the other parties in the conflict must do the equivalent, but one will not get anywhere if one demands that this must happen before Israel does the same. " (My translation) pertn 13:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Please be fair

message: I removed this section for a number of reasons. I think it could be introduced again, but I wasn't able to come up with at decent rewrite. 
Reasons
1. The link is dead, and does not refer to WSJ. 
2. The reference to WSJ is a bit confusing, as it may seem like there is one WSJ piece and one by Dr D.  
3. Dershowitz did not call Willoch an anti-semite directly.
4. The context should be included, that it is D's impressions from a trip to Norway and his impressions of the Norwegian elites. (Besides the point, but D himself really struggles with understanding the context, and thinks that "this line of talk is apparently acceptable", referring to the massively criticized Trond Andersen. Willoch's statement was also widely rejected by the Norwegian "elite". )
5. In general: I think that this is hardly notable. It is a quick shot at Willoch as an example of a misguided Norwegian elite. The fact that he even misspells Willoch's name can be taken as an indication that he is an example more than someone Dr D really has studied. I guess it would be more interesting and notable to see if D has written more extensive on Willoch based on more than one quote.
I can attempt a rewrite myself, but if someone with more interest in what Dershowitz means about Norway and Willoch wants to do it, please go ahead. 
pertn (talk) 08:57, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed the section with criticism from Dershowitz 

message: I don't know that this is the most accurate translation of whatever Norwegian term it stands for -- I'm guessing it's probably "fylkesmann" or "fylkesordfører". In any event, these offices hold dramatically less power than the US office of governor, so this may just be misleading.Ews1989 (talk) 11:22, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Governor" of Akershus? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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