Talk:Ammonihah

message: The story of Alma and Amulek in Ammonihah is more properly told, IMO, in their articles. I'm not sure Ammonihah warrants a separate article. andersonpd 00:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: what does WP:CLN have to do with this? The quoted bit of CLN ("The collection of articles in a sidebar template should be fairly tightly related,") appears to be talking about the articles within the navbox not the placement of the navbox on articles. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:19, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It makes sense to centralize this conversation at Template talk:Book of Mormon#Content in this template that is redundant with other templates. Hydrangeans (she/her) (talk) 18:24, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? They're entirely different discussions on equal level talk pages and this one was opened first... So if we're even considering centralizing its here, not there. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:28, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sidebar  

message: I think adding a section about the Nephite Christian Church is a good idea. Then we can explain what this thing is and not surprise the reader. Using Fenton might be a good starting point, "The Book of Mormon describes the existence of Christian churches in the New World described as divinely inspired and independently existing prior to and simultaneous with the establishment of Christianity." Things along those lines. I need something to hang my hat on to understand what the hell these churches and Christians are doing.
====Anachronism time====
Turns out, this is one of the Anachronisms in the Book of Mormon! HOORAY! So that explains my confusion. Do we want to mention the issue with synagogues? Maybe a page on Churches and synagogues in the Book of Mormon would be good to have so idiots like me can figure out what the hell is going on! jps (talk) 13:01, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Nephite Christian Church

message: Turns out, this is one of the Anachronisms in the Book of Mormon! HOORAY! So that explains my confusion. Do we want to mention the issue with synagogues? Maybe a page on Churches and synagogues in the Book of Mormon would be good to have so idiots like me can figure out what the hell is going on! jps (talk) 13:01, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Anachronism time

message: What is more, I don't know how to handle this "need for a Redeemer" sentence. First there is the word "need". Is that need an existential one? A material one? A suped-up desire? Or is it more practical because you go to hell without it? I need a bit more than just "Reedemer" here. Maybe that needs to be described in the Nephite Christian Church as well.
jps (talk) 01:20, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Redeemer

message: I don't understand the use of this word even now. Please, can we get something simpler? jps (talk) 01:31, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose "reflexively" is something of a five dollar word. The meaning is supposed to be "in a meta, self-aware way", but "meta" in that sense would make the article sound like a conversation about Undertale which I don't think is what Wikipedia's going for. Hydrangeans (she/her) (talk) 01:40, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it unique that there is someone talking about writing stuff down in the Book of Mormon? If so, can we just say that instead of trying to pack it all into one word? jps (talk) 01:52, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Reflexively

message: "The narrative set in Ammonihah is intertextual with the Old and New Testaments[specify]. Literary and theological scholarship treat the Ammonihah story as an exploration of suffering and a turning point in the Book of Mormon's use of the phrase "lake of fire and brimstone" as a metaphor for hell.[clarification needed]"
Can we get rid of it? It is not helpful and distracting to me.
jps (talk) 01:32, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: A paragraph in the lede I don't like

message: *Deep breath*
I think that intertextuality is dangerous because it can get is into apologetics very easily. On the other hand, it can also give the reader a better sense for where the ideas came from since the Book of Mormon was written with knowledge of KJV and other sources (which ought to be intertextually connected as well and are not so much since Mormons are not happy that that other source material is mentioned at all -- is there anything like this in View of the Hebrews, for example?). In any case, striking a balance is most important.
I asked about the court system. It dawned on me that the easiest comparison according to what a lot of these sources are saying is the Book of Judges. Is there a source which identifies this intertextuality? The conversion story is intertextually connected to the Road to Damascus. That's cool, but it would be nice if we could be more specific. Is there a striking blind of Alma or something?
Etc.
jps (talk) 11:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Intertextuality

message: Psychiatrist and Mormon scholar Robert D. Anderson considers this story a violent revenge fantasy written by Joseph Smith, whom he diagnoses with both narcissistic and anti-social personality disorder. Anderson notes that the Ammonihah narrative, unlike most of the Book of Mormon, emphasizes the specific dates of its events. He notes that these events parallel an episode of Smith's life, with Alma corresponding to Smith, Amulek to Joseph Stoal, and Ammonihah to the town of South Bainbridge, where Smith was briefly imprisoned. In Anderson's reading, the violent destruction of Ammonihah is Smith's revenge for the "humiliation" of this imprisonment. 
* Should we add this as a subsection? Is it reliable? Neutral?
* Does this count as an "LDS Source"? Remarkably, the author self identifies as a Mormon(!), but this is clearly not the official view of the church.
Ghosts of Europa (talk) 00:14, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I remember reading that article, but I didn't summarize the interpretation because I'm persuaded by Hugh Trevor-Roper that pyschobiography/psychohistory (permanent link) rests on a "defective philosophy" and entails a "defective method". Anderson's argument involves Smith's subconscious doing some remarkable calendrical maths to convert Gregorian years to Nephite ones. It'd be like summarizing claims about finding the ruins of Ammonihah. Hydrangeans (she/her) (talk) 00:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I agree with that psychobiography is not worthy of inclusion here unless noticed by others. Who cites that account? jps (talk) 05:23, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: To answer my own question since I just went through a source culling: the answer is no one. A shame. It's a cool idea. But it needs to be noticed first. jps (talk) 14:22, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternate Interpretation