Talk:Faithless elector

message: Is there a Wiki consensus regarding the use of the word "Democrat" vs "Democratic" when referring to the U.S. political party?  Not only does it seem grammatically wrong to say "Democrat member" or "Democrat President" instead of "Democratic", but it is often so used as an epithet against the party, as mentioned here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_(United_States)#Name_and_symbols
and would therefore seem to violate Wikipedia's NPOV policy.
3eguoxn02 (talk) 12:51, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Democrat vs Democratic 

message: given all the issues around the 2016 election and the claim over 30 republicans electors will be faithless might worth updating? just a thought.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:DA5B:4200:844D:82B:BFA9:7B4F (talk) 10:15, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: No. There is no good source saying that more than one Republican elector might be faithless. Whatever websites you're looking are bad websites. Earthscent (talk) 21:39, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should the current speculation be included 

message: We've got the United States presidential election, 1836 concerning the vice presidency, mentioned twice in this article, in both the intro & the history section. Perhaps one of these should be deleted. GoodDay (talk) 05:17, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: *As I'm reading this, there are five elections with double digits of faithless electors: 1796, 1828, 1836, 1872, and 1896; but of these five, 1836 was the only election not decided in the electoral college.  This makes it stand out as the single most important electoral college election for this article.However, the reasons for their doing so don't seem relevant for the lede.  Unscintillating (talk) 14:56, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  1836 election mentioned 'twice' 

message: In the spirit of collecting lists, it would be great to have a list of actual laws of US states governing faithless electors, as distinct from party rules, conditions, and penalties.
I found one law in the references, namely for Michigan.  I'll add to the following as they come to hand. (Although I started the list below I haven't signed it in order to allow anyone to add to it.)  So far I've only been able to find one state with an actual law on the books.  Minnesota used to have one but repealed it in 2015. Vaughan Pratt (talk) 06:18, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of faithless elector laws. 

message: My recent edit to the page was reverted. See below for original text. Yes, I understand that the official electoral vote from Minnesota will not reflect the faithless elector but there still needs to be a way to note this on the page, otherwise Minnesota will never show faithless electors again under the post-2004 state law which immediately replaces faithless electors...
Original edit:
1 – 2016 election: Muhammed Abdurrahman, a Minnesota elector, pledged for Democrats Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine, cast his ballot for Bernie Sanders and Tulsi Gabbard. Under state law passed after the 2004 faithless elector incident the Secretary of State invalidated the ballot and a backup elector was called who then cast votes for Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine.
Maybe we can say 0 - followed by the information? There should be some way to indicate the controversy here...
BenFranske (talk) 20:05, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I have restored the content but provided a separate count for faithless electors who were not counted. – Smyth\talk 21:11, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

text: User:Mélencron reverted again saying "this isn't a list of things that didn't happen (attempts to defect in other states stamped out)". What attempts? This isn't the same as someone considering being faithless and then deciding not to. This is an actual faithless vote. He has to be included in the list, even if he was replaced. – Smyth\talk 21:39, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

text: Whether he was replaced or counted is irrelevant. He was an elector. He was faithless. So he should be included in the "list of faithless electors". – Smyth\talk 22:02, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

text: Why does it have to be that way? The article spends much space discussing various laws against faithless electors, so it's logical to include in the timeline an incident in which those laws were actually used. – Smyth\talk 22:54, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minnesota 2016 

message: The 2016 entry should be two entries, as there were only 6 faithless electors for vice president. GoodDay (talk) 04:27, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone has now reorganized the section in what I think is a clearer way. – Smyth\talk 12:50, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

text: And I have reorganized it again to place the focus on the electors (the topic of this article) rather than the candidates. – Smyth\talk 13:08, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  2016 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The part in invaldating votes really needs a cite. It seems to be the case in Minnesota, the earlier linked law and other sources seem to support this    This has been challenged but so far unsuccessfully and it only involved the elector and at least one judge said one problem is the challenge came way too late  
Maine seems a little more complicated. Given what happened in 2016, research is difficult but I couldn't find nay mention of the law providing for invalidation of votes. This is somewhat WP:Syn but if you look at the law, it says they the elector will vote for the candidates who received the largest number of votes in the district but doesn't actually seem to say what should happen if this doesn't happen. AFACT, the only time this has ever been tested is again in 2016 and in that case (as also mentioned in one of the sources above) the ballot was ruled out of order and he then voted again as he should have done for Clinton. So it is fairly ambigious what will happen if the elector just keeps voting for the same "wrong" candidate. My guess is the same will happen as in Minnesota but the law doesn't really seem to provide for that, in fact the only mention of replacing electors is if they aren't present. There is also the question of what happens if e.g. the candidate is dead.    
Colorado is an interesting one. There was significant controversy and legal challenges in 2016 beginning before the Colorado EC even met. The end result was similar to Minnesota in that the elector who voted "incorrectly" was replaced but with an open question over the constitutionality of this. The law there is similar to Maine except that it specifically makes a provision for replacement due to a vacancy as a result of "refusal to act" which was interpreted as the primary basis for this replacement. It seems possible this will be clarified in the future.    
Nil Einne (talk) 13:01, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, the above comment is an adaption of something I wrote elsewhere. It is entirely my own work, so it's not WP:Copyvio for me to add it here as I'm free to release it under the appropriate licences. (I'm only making this comment to avoid any possible confusion over the copyright status, please don't take it as an excuse to link me to stuff elsewhere.) Nil Einne (talk) 13:04, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Maine's law does not expressly provide for the removal/replacement of the elector. In 2016, the elector was simply persuaded to vote as pledged after attempting to vote faithlessly and having his vote questioned by state officials present (and I believe, at least one fellow elector). Mdewman6 (talk) 05:12, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Invalidating votes 

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Link #4 to Minnesota's electors voting public is out of date. Section 208.08 was repealed. Too lazy to figure out what the current deal is and update, but someone should look into that.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.17.17.83 (talk) 17:29, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Can 1796 really be cited as a case (and the only case) where faithless electors changed the outcome of the election? Few electors were "pledged" in the modern sense and many did not straight-ticket vote regardless of whether they were pledged or not. The current text implies that Pinckney would have been elected President were it not for faithless electors, but this is at best misleading, because then we would have vice-presidential candidate being elected president, obstensibly due to faithless electors, but this did not occur. At best, the election could be viewed as the only case where faithless electors changed the outcome of the vice presidential election, as Jefferson was elected over Pinckney. Really, all these issues are the result of the pre-12th amendment Electoral College, which did not lend itself to party ticket voting, as came to a head in 1800.
I argue this sentence should be deleted, to be consistent with the main Electoral College wikipedia article that presently indicates that faithless electors have never changed the outcome. Or at least, the sentence should be revised to make more clear what the expected outcome was and how faithless electors changed it, which if substantiated could be elaborated upon in detailed section later in the article.Mdewman6 (talk) 17:27, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  1796 Election 

message: I think in addition to the current map there should also be one that just shows state that have actually banned faithless electors, i.e. force them to vote for the winning candidate or replace them, excluding those that only impose fines. There is a significant difference between them and currently the map doesnt reflect that. (Alternatively use just one map and use different shades for both cases) jonas (talk) 01:26, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support a multicolored map depicting the different types of faithless elector laws. It would be inappropriate to leave out the few states that disincentivize faithlessness via fines. It is important to make the distinction between states that provide for removal/replacement and those that have no specified enforcement. See FairVote, https://www.fairvote.org/faithless_elector_state_laws, though I think we can bin the uniform faithful elector act states with the other "no penalty, vote cancelled" states. Mdewman6 (talk) 21:02, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: In some of the pink states on the map, the laws merely say that the electors "shall" vote for specific candidates, so I don't think it's very accurate to say that these laws are "aimed at dissuading or thwarting faithless electors". I suggest using the current sentence only to describe the 17 enforcing states, or changing it to something more general like "legally require electors to vote for specific candidates". Heitordp (talk) 04:46, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, those are the laws those states have chosen to enact, regardless of how effective or ineffective they may be, and are clearly distinct from the 17 states that have no law on the subject at all. That's why the statement is immediately followed with the caveat "though in half of these jurisdictions there is no enforcement mechanism." For example, Maine had no enforcement mechanism in 2016 (and remains that way I think, I need to check on this and confirm with the FairVote people) and influence from state officials and other electors dissuaded the elector attempting to vote for Bernie Sanders to vote for Clinton instead. I don't believe his Sanders vote was actually officially declared invalid, since the statute says nothing about discarding votes or replacing electors, I think he was just reminded his vote was in violation of the law and he reluctantly acquiesced. I'm open to additional text to make the distinction more clear, but I think things are adequately described at present. Mdewman6 (talk) 21:16, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

text: I see your point now, I revised that sentence to something closer to what it was originally. Hopefully that addresses the issue, but feel free to improve. Mdewman6 (talk) 00:39, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Description of laws 

message: This wording appears on the page. I think Bailey himself disagreed with it. I would like to see some nuance added to this page regarding Bailey's position that he was voting for his district. Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea about this, but assume that regardless of his motives or goals, he was pledged to the candidates of his party to be appointed as an elector. As always, feel free to add more detail with references if the present description is misleading or incomplete. Mdewman6 (talk) 21:20, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Lloyd W. Bailey, pledged for Republicans Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew," 

message: Where does the term "faithless elector" come from? It is a loaded, pejorative term that challenges the constitutional role of the electoral college as a body of individuals exercising their best judgment, not to mechanically register the majority opinion of their respective states. They might just as accurately be called "free" or "conscientious" or "reconsidering" electors. Where does the label "faithless" come from; what is its history? The answer should be in the article. -- ℜob C. alias ALAROB 19:09, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know the origin of the term. If anyone has some sourcing that sheds some light on it, by all means I agree it should be added to the article. FairVote uses the term "deviant" electors/votes, whereas others prefer "anomalous" electors/votes, but "faithless" is clearly the most common term, even though it has come to include all anomalous electoral votes, including those in the case of a deceased candidate and those who did not vote due to illness in some counts. Mdewman6 (talk) 22:28, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why "faithless"? 

message: It seems to me that coloring states with aggressive anti-faithless-elector laws green, and states with more lenient faithless-elector laws red, clearly promotes the point of view that states should pass laws against faithless electors. Could the colors be changed to ones without direct positive/negative connotations in American culture?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by AdamPronouncedAdam (talk • contribs) 04:45, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. In this case, it doesn't make sense for states with prohibitive laws to be colored green or for states with permissive laws to be colored red. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 16:03, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biased coloration of state-by-state law map?