Talk:Khardung La

message: Why is it ok to link to Kashmir, Karakoram, Leh, Siachen Glacier and Central Asia, but links to South Pullu and Nubra Valley are removed? Without even bothering to put something in the edit summary? 193.172.135.148
:The reason is there are no articles to those areas and so I decided to remove them. I'm sorry to have edited it without adding in the reasoning behind it in the edit summary. Hope that clarified. Idleguy 11:48, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
::Red links are beneficial to wikipedia, please don't remove red links for the sake of removing red links - the criteria for wikifying a link shouldn't be "does an article already exist here?", rather it should be "SHOULD an article exist here?" --81.154.236.221 17:56, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Links

message: If "La" means pass, shouldn't the article be at either Khardung La or Khardung Pass? Where it sits now, it's name means "Khardung Pass Pass"(sic). --Madison Gray 14:38, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually there are many such "La"s or passes in the area like Kambala pass or the Ganja la pass and so on. Despite being technically redundant it is the common terminology for such names, because without a pass being affixed it is likely to be confused with some villages with similar names as the passes. Not everyone understands tibetian languages you know. Furthermore the Khardung La article redirects here. Thanx Idleguy 15:28, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
Why is the article called "Khardong La" when it is quite obviously named "Khardung La" ?  The assertion that "Non-locals sometimes call it Khardung-La instead" seems to be contradicted by the fact that the signs physically located there spell it "Khardung La". Njb1969 16:44, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't know why it was moved. No clear explanation was given. Unless a clear explanation is provided, then I propose to move it back. Viewfinder 09:45, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Name

message: And so, effectively, do NASA and the Russians!!
I concede, Idleguy, that the web page COLLATING the evidence for the above claim, , is mine. But the authors of the claim are MANY and it comes from MANY DIFFERENT websites with which I have had not one iota of involvement, Idleguy. My contribution to the six websites that I cite is PRECISELY NIL, Idleguy. And they were all uploaded before I posted anything to this site. So I find your accusation of "sneaky vandalism" contemptible.
The above claim is supported not merely by GPS, but by data from NASA's SRTM and Russian topographic mapping, which for the Indian Himalaya has better topographical detail than any other mapping that has been made available to the public.  Are you suggesting these sources, too, are my own take in disguise? Goodness gracious me.
Pointing out this evidence in the discussion section is completely legitimate and the evidence is sufficient to merit a mention on the main article page despite being contrary to a source who, however "professional", have not identified their own primary authority on this matter. But still, let us see what, if anything, Guinness come back with. OK, for now, despite the nonsensical basis on which you insist on this, the main page remains as it is. But meanwhile any attempt by you or anyone else to delete or delete from my postings to this talk page section will elicit a very vigorous response indeed.
Even the most august authorities sometimes get it wrong. Attempts to question their word should NOT be suppressed.
Incidentally, here is a direct link to a map accurately centred on coordinates supplied by the Catalan GPS measurement. (I swear that I had no part in the Catalan - or any other - measurement and that it appears here exactly as it was sent to me). The map accurately marks the road pass but incorrectly locates what it calls (in Cyrillic) "Khardung". I also supply a direct link to the SRTM elevation data centred on the same coordinates. I think it all amounts to stronger evidence than anything likely to be supplied by Guinness. Viewfinder 
:Sources that quote and stand by the version of Khardungla include apart from the Guinness, the National Geographic society. You'd expect that a society formed specifically for geographical purposes would not make mistakes and erroneously report the wrong height. You claim NASA and Russian estimates on this, but do they officially say anything on the world's highest pass? Because if they do conduct such a research on one pass, then i'm assuming they should also have measured the other "las" that you suggest are higher. in which case they should also be able to come out with all their elevations. only then can we know what the truth is.
:also remember these other passes might be higher than khardungla, but do they even have  something of a semblance called a road? if they are just passable and not motorable enough (as with automobiles) they wouldnt really be a road by modern standards. passage for mules and camels alone is probably not a "motorable road". Idleguy 14:46, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
Hello again Idleguy!
For your further information:
(1) Re the National Geographic Society: from this :
"I checked the 7th edition of the National Geographic Atlas of the World on your behalf. The altitude for Orizaba Peak, Mexico's high point, is given as 5747 meters...Research Correspondence (National Geographic Society)." This altitude is shown to be seriously WRONG not just by the Mexican national survey who give 5611m, but also by a GPS professional survey; quoted here the professor estimates the accuracy of his 18490ft(5636m) result at 50ft. So I reject your comments about the National Geographic Society. Incidentally the Times Atlas, which people like you would also take as indisputable gospel, has many major elevation errors, especially in High Asia and South America.
(2) The road through the Trans-Himalayas, north from Raga to Coqen, rising to Semo La (5585m, N 30°06'36" E 85°25'54") is shown on maps uploaded to this site. SRTM data confirms the elevation and the author of this page (see Route-info, Katmandu-Kashi) has confirmed to me that Semo La is a motorable road. These reporters are trying hard to establish reputations; they would not risk being caught reporting lies.
(3) Neither SRTM nor the Russians have specifically researched passes but if their elevation data (NASA) and topo contours (Russian) are correct, which they are likely to be as they agree closely in the Khardung area and closely enough in the Semo area, then they implicitly show that Semo La is higher.
I trust first hand reports in preference to august publications. It will take time but I am confident that Guinness will eventually concede their error. Viewfinder
POSTSCRIPT: I have just found a 5300m elevation quote here.
I assume noone would suggest that Sir Christian Bonington is part of my great conspiracy against Khardung La Road Pass!! Not even you, Idleguy. Viewfinder
:Can you get a reliable source that gives the highest motorable road in the world? If it is Semo La, how come i've never heard of anyone doing motorized expeditions to there. Maybe I've not come across such expedition and I am all ears if you can update this missing piece with sources on any motorcycle or automobile trips to this remote pass. the link u have given me of bonington only tells me that are supposed to be higher passes. but which is that one? Is it verifiable by more than one reliable source? No one will bother to look up topographic maps or pore through numbers to find the highest pass as the maps from nasa and russian link u gave are. can they quote in no uncertain terms that " X pass is the highest" (X being either semo la or marsmik la). Only then this can be solved. Else another chap passing through this article will once again claim something else. Idleguy 07:20, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that more information is needed. Hopefully it will emerge. Semo La is mentioned on the summitpost Kailash page ("Northern Route"), on which it is implied that vehicle travel is possible. But there is much less internet information, and no actual reports of motorised expeditions. This is probably because (a) it is remote and difficult, and (b) most people think Khardungla is higher. There may be even higher motorable passes in Tibet. 
Re Marsimik, I have checked this out. Some internet sites say 5680m. This one says "5590m, 18634ft", can anyone clarify this because according to my calculator 5590m=18340ft). The Russian topo says it is 5641m. Its precise coordinates are a bit unclear. From SRTM I cannot see how it can be as much as 5680m but it's at least 5580m so it probably overtops Semo La. It may be "motorable" in the literal sense that someone has put a motorcycle on the summit, and for army vehicles, but I doubt if the majority of motorists should consider it motorable. A report here seems to suggest a motorable road in Bolivia that rises to 5836m, and there are other reports from the Andes that seem to claim that motor vehicles have been driven to over 6000 metres. The research continues. Viewfinder
:Also note that khardungla was already a pass that was part of the silk route for centuries, but it was only in 76 that a road was built and opened to public in 1988. so it suggests that not all passes are considered as roads, though they might be so flat u could drive vehicles. i think the confusion might lie in what is being termed as a "road". motor vehicles can and have been driven to more than 6000 metres as u said, but the record is not about endurance driving, or climbing over the hill with specialised vehicles or drivers but about the "highest road" which any averagely skilled driver on almost any motor vehicle can climb. the khardungla has been driven on by a myriad of vehicles from the mundane to the heavy vehicles. Idleguy 05:19, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
More info about the quality of the Semo La route would be good. Another possible source of confusion: the 1976 road appears to have been cut into the steep side of a mountain. Perhaps, before it was built, the silk routers took a more direct and less steep, but higher, route, a bit further east, nearer to what the Russian map calls "Khardung". The map here says "5460m" but SRTM puts this closer to 5600m. Viewfinder
Postscript: The debate about what is a "motorable road" and location of the highest motorable road may be open. But Suge La, 5430m, about 100km west of Lhasa, is, according to this summitpost page, on a bus route. This surely makes it a "motorable road" by any reasonable definition. Both SRTM and a GPS reading by the author of the above page reaffirm the elevation of 5430m shown on the map on the above page. Viewfinder
12 September 2005: further information about the world's highest motorable pass can be found here. This site will be updated with new information as and when I find it. Viewfinder
5 October 2005. Despite three attempts, I have still not received a response from Guinness World Records. This is not surprising, as I have since discovered that GWR is now part of the HIT Entertainment group, whose earnings are primarily from childrens' cartoon characters like Bob the Builder, not from accurate reporting. There is a trade-off between entertaining and accurate informing.
Recent amendments to the main page are inadequate. I propose to further amend it as follows (amendment between asterisks):
 
The exact height of the road has been the subject of some debate with official Indian measurements putting the height at 18,380 while the Guinness book puts it higher, **but several independent travellers' GPS reports, SRTM data, Russian topographic mapping and an [article] by Bonington all put it considerably lower, around 17,500**. There are also several other passes in the tibetian plateau which are claimed to be higher that Khardungla, though none have been verified by independent institutions.
 
If this amendment is not made, I shall make it myself. If I am prevented from doing this, then I will initiate dispute proceedings with Wikipedia, and ask them to pass judgement which will be on permanent record. Viewfinder
6 October (13:53 GMT) - I am happy with the article as it now stands. Although Semo La (5565m) has not been institutionally verified, imho the evidence that it is motorable is solid. Marsimik La (5590m) is almost certainly higher, but whether it is motorable is open to debate. Viewfinder
I have read the ongoing discussion with great interest.
Semo Pass is the highest motorable pass I know of. You can drive a vehicle without too much difficulty to higher elevations in Bolivia, but none of those places can be considered a pass.
Last time I was on Semo Pass I was there to get coordinates and elevations of the  Lhasa-Shigatse-Lhatze-Raka-Tsochen-Lunggar-Saga-Pelku co-Nyalam-Zhangmu route. I work as a coordinator and guide for the BBC (Natural History Unit, Bristol) and last year we made a recce in the above mentioned area. We had to have a lot of info in order to organize the logistics for another , larger expedition this year. The reason why you've never heard of anyone doing motorized expeditions to there is probably because it's on one of the main roads through Tibet. There's not much traffic in the area, but I would say 15-20 vehicles/day go over the pass. If I remember correct, the three GPS had showed 5571m, 5572m and 5555m respectively. The latter one was not a DGPS and was a bit off at times, if not left on a location long enough. Bad recieving unit I'd guess. Some years back I cycled the pass and got altitude readings close to the ones above.
I have travelled and measured higher passes which can be travelled by motorized vehicles, but none of them really qualify as a road pass. A sturdy truck or 4x4 could do it, but not a normal vehicle. I don't want to offend, but to speak frankly, the claimed altitude of Khardung Pass is nothing but pure fantasy from the Indians.
Janne Corax.
:If you do work for the BBC, maybe you should get the data and ask BBC to put up the information somewhere. That'll stop this confusion that currently exists. I'm not a fan of any place despite being an Indian but Wikipedia is not the place for posting original research. IF more than two reputed publications (National Geographic & Guinness) are stating Khardungla then that'll what is likely to be quoted. I'm pretty happy with the way the article stands now unless BBC has any news on the updated information. I'd be glad and the first to update it accordingly (I'm not a fan of misinformation) but until then I'm afraid in the absence of a valid challenger the (un)disputed champion retains the title. Hope you understand. Idleguy 04:21, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Six INDEPENDENT GPS readings all conclude that the elevation of Khardung La Road Pass is less than 5400 metres 

message: *Although this discussion appears to have been closed for more than a month, I'd still like to offer a voice of support for Jonathan. It really doesn't surprise me that Guinness have got it wrong; it is obvious that they want money and power much more than going to the trouble of accurately reporting information. Of course they make false claims about their professionalism; who doesn't? The NGS may not have updated their information for a long time. 
And to answer someone's query up there, GPS data is now incredibly reliable, much more reliable than satellite data. It is even possible that the major sources copy off each other. At any rate - at the very least - six independent, reliable readings of <5400m, by people who have actually been to the top of the pass, should not be totally ignored. I'm going to put something in the article. --Mark J 12:30, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yo Jonathan I haven't reverted anything. If GWR chooses not to print a record on their website or their print edition, it does in no way belittle a record. They mention the reason why in their FAQs on their site. This issue seems settled right now as the article reflects that the height is indeed a problem. But the lead line cannot be changed unless someone of significant standing confirms your claims. Until then it can be (and rightly is) added as an endnote to the article. Tx Idleguy 18:12, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Support for JDF here

message: I am sorry that Indian sources such as this continue to make the claim that Khardungla is the world's highest motorable pass when it has been conclusively proved otherwise. It hardly helps to further India's claim to be an open and technologically advanced country. Viewfinder (talk) 09:58, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  More misinformation 

message: I note that the section with the above title has been tagged as possible WP:OR. The research was not mine, but unfortunately the website of the team that measured Khardung La and Semo La is no longer alive. I will try to find out what happened to it, but in the meantime Semo La can be checked out on Google Earth, where the elevation is accurately displayed, and there are satellite and ground photographs which show that there is a motorable road. Viewfinder (talk) 20:29, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The world's highest motorable pass? 

message: Is there anyone out there who can supply verifiable evidence that the Indian government still officially upholds the 18380ft claim? If so, let them upload it instead of editing the article without adding sources and dismissing serial "amateur" GPS claims.  You do not have to be a professional to read a GPS device. Incidentally local GDEM data are based on 22 stereo pairs of imagery. Also WP:OR claims are false because the original researchers who nailed the elevation lie have not edited the article. Viewfinder (talk) 12:14, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official height