Talk:Brazil/Archive 1

message: The article says that "In fact, it borders every South American nation except for Ecuador and Chile". It's missing Trinidad and Tobago, which is also a South American state and it's listed as such at the bottom of the page.
* Trinidad and Tobago actually belongs to Central America. Amedyr 19:51, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: MISTAKE

message: The page claimed that there was n "immigrant language" called
: Talian or sometimes called Vêneto (a uniquely Brazilian form of Italian)
Vèneto was my first language, but it was certainly not a "uniquely Brazilian form of Italian" -- check Venetian language!
Likewise, the page claimed that there exist "immigrant languages"
:Hunsrückisch German or Riograndenser Hunsrückisch, Pommeranisch or Pommersch, Plattdüütsch or Plattdietsch, Schwäbisch (or Swabian)
Are these really distinct languages, sufficiently well-defined to be worth writing about -- or were they just European languages that were spoken in Brazil, with variable degrees of lexical borowing? In any case, please follow the Wikipedia naming guidelines Riograndenser Hunsrückisch language etc.
Jorge Stolfi 06:37, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Immigrant languages

message: To say that Vicente Yañez Pinzón discovered Brazil is not only historically wrong, but it is an insult to Brazilians and Portuguese people. Whoever believes otherwise, we want to see your sources (and no, a Spanish encyclopaedia doesn't count).
At the last resort, if there is really a dispute (which is not the case -- only if you WANT to believe that Pinzón discovered Brazil), then we should stick with what the Brazilians and Portuguese claim, and any claims from Spanish sources should be taken with suspicion, since Spain and Portugal disputed territories in the Americas. So, Pinzón went down the Amazon River. So what?
* The River goes beyond the Brazilian territory -- even today. 
* Brazil's territory expanded due to the Treaty of Tordesillas, which happened way after Cabral and Pinzón. Therefore Brazil's territory was way smaller at the time. Which means that the region explored by Pinzón was probably Spanish territory at the time. See: Portuguese colonization of the Americas.
* The population of Brazil was not developed in the region where Pinzón made his way. Until today, only Indians leaves there, and Brazil want to keep it this way. The whole development of Brazil started on its East coat.
Therefore, if a State expands its territory to a place/region which dates before the colonization/foundation/discovery of the State itself, doesn't mean that whoever claimed this new acquired territory before, is now the colonizer/founder/discoverer of the whole State.
Brazil was colonised by Portugal, claimed by the Portugal crown, the emperor was Portuguese, they speak Portuguese, and Brazil wouldn't accept otherwise. So please, let's avoid further discussions on this topic: Pedro Álvares Cabral discovered Brazil. Want to claim otherwise? Let's talk about it here, ok?
If I sound like I am overreacting, I am sorry. But as a Brazilian, such claim is quite upsetting. You don't see me going to the Airplane page and wiping of the name of the Wright Brothers claiming that Santos Dummond invented the airplane, do you? (Although I do belive he invented the first proper airplane, and that his name should be at least mentioned somewhere ;-) )
___
My first source was a wikipedia article, Colonial Brazil, where somebody wrote:
"Brazil's discovery is officially dated at April 22 of 1500, by Pedro Álvares Cabral, who was trying to discover a new route to India, around Africa. However, his pioneerism is still debated. He was in fact preceded by Vicente Yáñez Pinzón who discovered the Amazon river months earlier on January 26, but if the Amazon is now part of Brazil it was then west of the Tordesilhas Line, therefore actually Spanish".
Then I read fast some pages about Brazil's discovery, all in english: 
*The mother that betrayed her children, brazilian 
*http://www.ewetel.net/~norbert.fiks/columbus/seiten/cabral2.htmApril 1500: The squatting of Brazil], english and Deutsche
There are biographies about Pinzon:
*[
I wrote "when the first European explorers, Led by Vicente Yáñez Pinzón and Pedro Álvares Cabral disembarked on 1500". As you see, I don't delete to Cabral. You deleted Pinzon.
Finally, I don't know because the possible fact of Brazil's discovery by Vicente Yañez Pinzón could be an insult to Brazilians and Portuguese people.  
In the Spanish Empire, as example, many explorers were portuguese: Ferdinand Magellan, Juan Rodríguez Cabrillo (João Rodrigues Cabrilho), etc. The own Columbus was probably genovesian. Hernán Cortés had 300.000 Amerindian allies and only 100 soldiers. Idem with the Tercios españoles in Europe, bankers, etc. 
On the other side, all the brazilians are not of portuguese origin, too. See Demographics of Brazil.
The debate exists, and we can't deny by nationalism. Where would be the truth?
___
Grimferrer, tell any Brazilian or Portuguese that Brazil was discovered by anyone else rather than Pedro Álvares Cabral, and let me know if they agree with it. As I mentioned before, the estuary of the Amazon River only became party of the Brazilian territory long after both Pinzón and Cabral were gone.
Also, all these Internet sources are dubious. Probably done by some Spaniards with sense of nationalism towards the Issue. "Who discovered Brazil" is a discussion that normally takes place in little bars on the streets of Galicia, where elder Spanish and Portuguese people keep debating (with nostalgy) which country is more influential.
____
Well, I'm not expert about issue. I will read about it later. Ah, I've reverted Pedro Álvares Cabral
____
From Época, Em memória do navegante andaluz Cidade pernambucana antecipa a celebração do Descobrimento, que atribui ao espanhol Pinzón :
"A presença do navegador espanhol em terras pernambucanas é questão controvertida, mas poucos duvidam de que tenha pisado em território brasileiro antes dos portugueses".
"Ao desembarcar numa ponta da atual Praia do Paraíso, em Pernambuco, o navegador batizou-a de Cabo de Santa Maria de la Consolación e lavrou o termo de posse. O documento só não foi oficialmente reconhecido devido ao Tratado de Tordesilhas, assinado em 1494 por Espanha e Portugal, dividindo entre as duas potências territórios conhecidos ou por descobrir".
"Já no dia do desembarque reabasteceu as caravelas e seguiu costa acima até o Cabo Orange, no extremo norte do país. Na foz do Amazonas, impressionou-o o tamanho do rio, que batizou de Mar Dulce. Dali, navegou até o Caribe e voltou em seguida à Europa com uma fortuna em pau-brasil, topázio, canela e animais exóticos".
"A versão foi contestada por um livro do historiador cearense Capistrano de Abreu, para quem Pinzón efetivamente pisou as areias do Cabo de Santo Agostinho. "Infelizmente, o primeiro capítulo da História do Brasil é também o mais obscuro e mal contado", lamenta a historiadora Maria do Socorro Ferraz, da Universidade Federal de Pernambuco. Ela coordena uma equipe de dez técnicos que vasculha o Arquivo Histórico Ultramarino, em Portugal. O projeto, apoiado numa verba de R$ 500 mil, trará ao Brasil cerca de 300 mil documentos relativos ao período colonial. "Sem a paixão nacionalista de portugueses e espanhóis, os brasileiros se abstêm ao remontar essa confusa parte da História", argumenta".
"Não podemos contar a História em função do Tratado de Tordesilhas", pondera o pesquisador amador. "Está na hora de mexer nesse vespeiro." Em novembro, Santo Agostinho tornou-se "município irmão" de Palos de la Frontera, terra natal de Pinzón.
____
Well, when it says that "poucos duvidam de que tenha pisado em território brasileiro antes dos portugueses". I would mention:
* Only people from Pernambuco thinks so.
* Even if that is the case, once again, that was NOT BRAZIL at the time. It was annexed. So what?
Let me put it this way: Kaliningrad is a province in the Middle of Europe that belongs to Russia (anexed by Russia during Soviet times). This doesn't mean, that Russia was founded by King Ottokar II, does it?
_______
*The historical truth is not a show of hands.  Did you know if this people from Pernambuco have any proof (prueba)?  
*According to wikipedia, "the first permanent Portuguese settlement [...] São Vicente was founded in 1532". After only two years, "In 1534, Dom João III, king of Portugal created the Hereditary Captaincies. Pernambuco, one of these captaincies, was granted to Duarte Coelho. ", so Pernambuco would not be an annexed territory.  It would be a Captaincies of the original Brazil.
I was surprised to red "After Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva came to power 2004 January 1st, the government has changed economic policies. The economy is growing again, and is expected to do so for the forseeable future."  All observers agree that the macro economic policies were maintained. Maybe they were exacerbeted... The central bank was put in the hands of someone from of Cardoso's party and The Lula government concluded it first year with a negative growht!
:: Makes no difference, who's discover Brazil made a genocide killing a lot native americans (ìndios do litoral brasileiro)
No one discovers a country, because it was there all the time in the first place. It's like saying bacteria discovered the universe. We should say who went to Brazil first. And the answer would be indians.
===Who discovery Brazil===
I'm really scared with things that I read here. Pedro Alvares Cabral disovered Brazil. This is secular consensus, every brazilian kid know this. All encyclopedias published here (including Britannica and Encarta) brings this information. --Mateusc 01:56, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Mateusc, thank you! I suggest you keep your eyes opened for anyone attempting to say otherwise either in this article or any other articles about other explorers and navigators. --Pinnecco 17:04, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you ever consider that there was a relatively recent change in the brazilian educational curriculum? I am brazilian, and although this has never come to my attention, I was just discussing this with someone from an earlier generation and he seemed pretty familiar with Vicente Pinzón. Also, are either of you defending this point of view actually historians? I hardly think elementary school knowledge should take precedence when writing an encyclopedia article. However this strays from common sense, there is no reason to blindly reject the idea, instead of doing further research on it. The subject is at least controversial, such controversy deserves at least a mention within the article to acquire a neutral point of view other than that of what schools teach as national history. The case is, there's an official version of the story, yet there is a whole context to be considered when talking about the great navigations. Looking deeper into history, we know Brazil's discovery was far from unintentional, as is thaught to kids nowadays. I'd just like to point out that it is a shame to let any piece of knowledge or research that is different from your "secular consensus", fade away out of close-mindedness. To find the truth, one must always question and consider every point of view. I'd also like to remind those who defend that it was not Brazillian territory, or that it was not a "discovery", that it is a case of semantics, while you do not consider that the official discovery of Brazil, other people in the world might have different conceptions than you and actually disagree. There are reports about several expeditions that might have arrived in brazilian territory before Cabral, such as João Coelho da Porta da Cruz, Duarte Pacheco Pereira, Diogo de Lepe and the oh so controversial Pinzón. Why are these incidents not deserving of mention in any form? Why should wikipedia readers be shielded from this knowledge? I think a proper solution should be found to achieve a true neutral point of view. While I would agree to make a compromise and allow further detailing and recognition of the "official" point of view, the other versions are AT LEAST deserving of mention. I expect a reasonable reconsideration.
Starghost 00:00, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This discussion is very valueable for History of Brazil article. Yet, alternative visions of History does not belong to this article, since it is shorter. José San Martin 00:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vicent Yáñez Pinzón DID NOT DISCOVER BRAZIL 

message: I'm really scared with things that I read here. Pedro Alvares Cabral disovered Brazil. This is secular consensus, every brazilian kid know this. All encyclopedias published here (including Britannica and Encarta) brings this information. --Mateusc 01:56, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Mateusc, thank you! I suggest you keep your eyes opened for anyone attempting to say otherwise either in this article or any other articles about other explorers and navigators. --Pinnecco 17:04, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you ever consider that there was a relatively recent change in the brazilian educational curriculum? I am brazilian, and although this has never come to my attention, I was just discussing this with someone from an earlier generation and he seemed pretty familiar with Vicente Pinzón. Also, are either of you defending this point of view actually historians? I hardly think elementary school knowledge should take precedence when writing an encyclopedia article. However this strays from common sense, there is no reason to blindly reject the idea, instead of doing further research on it. The subject is at least controversial, such controversy deserves at least a mention within the article to acquire a neutral point of view other than that of what schools teach as national history. The case is, there's an official version of the story, yet there is a whole context to be considered when talking about the great navigations. Looking deeper into history, we know Brazil's discovery was far from unintentional, as is thaught to kids nowadays. I'd just like to point out that it is a shame to let any piece of knowledge or research that is different from your "secular consensus", fade away out of close-mindedness. To find the truth, one must always question and consider every point of view. I'd also like to remind those who defend that it was not Brazillian territory, or that it was not a "discovery", that it is a case of semantics, while you do not consider that the official discovery of Brazil, other people in the world might have different conceptions than you and actually disagree. There are reports about several expeditions that might have arrived in brazilian territory before Cabral, such as João Coelho da Porta da Cruz, Duarte Pacheco Pereira, Diogo de Lepe and the oh so controversial Pinzón. Why are these incidents not deserving of mention in any form? Why should wikipedia readers be shielded from this knowledge? I think a proper solution should be found to achieve a true neutral point of view. While I would agree to make a compromise and allow further detailing and recognition of the "official" point of view, the other versions are AT LEAST deserving of mention. I expect a reasonable reconsideration.
Starghost 00:00, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This discussion is very valueable for History of Brazil article. Yet, alternative visions of History does not belong to this article, since it is shorter. José San Martin 00:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Who discovery Brazil

message: Anyone knows how Brazil's health system operate. What i mean by this is, is it purely socialized like Canada, a mixture of both public and private like Britian and Australia or purely capitalized like US?
:It's a mixture of public and private.  — Kieff | Talk 05:55, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
::It is, but the private part is highly capitalized, and someone in private health don't need to have any business with the public system. For example, in the UK, one must always go to the public GP and ask for him to reffer himself to a specialist. In Brazil, if one is a member of a health plan, he can visit any doctor/clinic that is a member of such plan straight away. [sigh... I miss this :)] --Pinnecco 14:04, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The public system is poor as you can't imagine. 200.172.115.194 03:00, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brazil's health system 

message: It is important to mention the importance, influence and size of the Italian colony in Brazil. 25 million descendents (world's largest) and deeply important to form the daily habits of Brazilians. Fred.
"Racism in Brazil is an unbailable crime." I don't know how to interpret this sentence. I didn't edit since I'm not sure what the author is trying to get at. 24.179.23.9 00:18, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population 

message: Regarding this:
:0.1% to 0.2% (0.03% or 56,000 people according to the last census, mostly Arab immigrants) 
Anyone has a link for this census? The only link I found on 2000 census was
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2003/24481.htm
:Approximately 2.1 million respondents to the 2000 census checked "other," which includes Islam, Hinduism, spiritualism, esoteric traditions, and indigenous traditions.  
What's the source/link for 0.03%? OneGuy 22:15, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Islam in Brazil

message: A controversy has erupted over the choice of map for this article. The two candidates are shown here, along with any others that other Wikipedians may choose to enter. Feel free to make any comments. The lower map may also appear in the corresponding Geography article for this country. Kelisi 02:40, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Has someone had a chance to create a page that lists all the various issues and points of view regarding Kelisi's new maps? When debates are strewn across lots of pages when need to come to a general conclusion about the best way forward. Pcb21| Pete 15:35, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all I would like to know whether the two maps differ in presentation or in matter. Are there any any differences in international / maritime boundaries depicted in the two maps. I could not see any, but I might have missed some. If not, I feel the CIA map is much better as it is less cluttered. Kelisi’s map is too complicated and a reader could get lost in the plethora of colors and numbers in it. --DuKot 07:10, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: South America adn Developing countries' debt is currently nominated to be improved on Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. You can support the article with your vote.--Fenice 12:14, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Improvement Drive

message: Please change the article to use Template:OtherUses instead of Template:otheruses it currently uses. The OtherUses template has information about the contents of the article.
 
For a sample use of this template refer to the articles Alabama or Algiers--—The preceding unsigned comment was added by DuKot (talk • contribs) .
:Note that that functionality is now at .  redirects to , and is deprecated.--Srleffler 18:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  OtherUses template 

message: Attention all Brazilian and Brazilian-interested editors. Curitiba is located at Curitiba and Manaus is at Manaus, and that's all well and good. But when it's necessary to disambiguate a location, the Brazilian cities are currently using a number of different systems. For example:
*São Paulo, São Paulo
*Alegre, ES, Brazil
*Lima Duarte (city)
*Indiana, Brazil & Natal, Brazil
*Coimbra (MG) (doesn't exist yet, but linked under that name from List of cities in Minas Gerais)
Let's pick one method, standardize on it, and record the decision in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (city names). Taking Coimbra as an example, the options would be:
#Coimbra, Brazil -- transparent to foreigners, but problematic if there turns out to be another Coimbra in (eg) Paraná.
#Coimbra, Minas Gerais or Coimbra, MG -- the US/Canada "comma convention".
#Coimbra (Minas Gerais) or Coimbra (MG) -- using the domestic abbreviation/format. Probably not very transparent to foreigners, but the (parenthetical) helps make pipe-linking much easier.
#Coimbra, MG, Brazil -- no chance of confusion at all, but makes for very lengthy article names.
#Others?
We could of course have redirects from any number of the alternatives, but it would be useful to set a standard for the article locations themselves. And standardize now, to avoid a lot more work later. My vote, as an outsider, would be for #2, for clarity's sake and because it's a very familiar format for English-speakers,  but perhaps the force of local custom would decide it in favor of #3. What do you think? –Hajor 02:08, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No? No one? Can I be bold and simply adopt the Coimbra, Minas Gerais, format for those cities that need disambiguating? –Hajor 03:42, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

text: It's the opposite: chosing a single method would make life easier. That's why we have a Manual of style. See for instance the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (city names) page. --cesarb 23:40, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Brazilian city names -- standardized disambiguation?

message: Doesn't Brazil have an entire space program, national space administration, launch facility? There could at least be mention of that..!
Yes it does. But it's not a very big... currently, to my best knowldge, there are 3 satelites being controled in the INPE (Instituto Nacional de Pesquisas Espaciais -  the National Insitute for Space Research) and there are no sucessful launches of satelites yet. I may get around to adding a few facts, but the isn't much to say really... --Vertigo200 22:27, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agência Espacial Brasileira, Centro de Lançamento de Alcântara. --cesarb 17:42, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Brazilian space program

message: I updated the Brazilian GDP based on the 2006 IMF list. You can find it at:
http://imf.org(...)
Plese check this documment (pdf): http://www.ggdc.net/pub/online/gd52(online).pdf
It confirms that Brazils economy is indeed larger than that of mexico, though abit outdated I havent been able to find a more recent work. Also if you compare GDPs you`d see that Brazil`ss is higher than Mexicos.--RIP-Acer 17:48, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Economy 

message: While I understand that this article has been written fot an english audience, I still find it colonized by the use of some "politically correct" terms the US insinsts of applying worldwide. "Afro-Brazilian" is a disrespect, a cultural submission, incorrect, and also not used (thank god) widely.
In Brazil, there isnt a tenth of the racial tension that exists on US. Surely, racism exists, but to a much milder extent. As noted elsewhere on the text, the very palpable discrimination that exists on brazilian society is that of the social status. 
Also, there are important differences in the naming of non-white people; The equivalent of negroe (in portuguese: negro) is preffered to refer to people of dark skin. The use of black (portuguese: preto) is considered highly offensive and charged with racism. A popular T-shirt is one that says "Preto é cor, negro é raça" (Black is a color, negro is a race). Even more, brazilians think of themselves as a single block of people, even if diverse. Thus its unnatural for a brazilian to think of himself as Afro-brazilian, when he prefers to be called just brazilian, as the rest of the population does. You dont see people on the street claiming "Im portuguese-brazilian", "arab-brazilian" or "ukranian-brazilian". Therefore, the "political correctness" (which is euphemism for euphemism) in using the US -created "Afro-" prefix is completely unnecessary. 
The other people of darker skin are sometimes called collectively "morenos" (which loosely translates to brunnetes[-skin wise]).
Also, I saw no note on the article that says that "Mulato" is the mixing of white and black races, "Mameluco" is the mixing of native indian and black races, and "Cafuzo" is the mixing of indian and white races. "Mestiço" (which means "mixed") would be the mixing of any one of these. LtDoc 13:32, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racial Diversity 

message: Source:  Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Fifteenth edition. Dallas, Tex.: SIL International
:: All these variations are indigenan dialets, because imigrants in Brazil had adopted the default origin countries languages to be communicated, despite some knowing and telling in research that says dialects. --200.167.78.3 01:52, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The number of languages listed for Brazil is 235.  Of those, 188 are living languages and 47 are extinct. 

message: I think the article it's ugly after the images was inserted in Economy section. Sao Paulo, Igreja do Piracicaba, Barragem do Pirapora, Carnival, Rio? I will keep Iguaçu image in Geography section, but doesn't have reasons to infest the article with images of localities and events. --Mateusc 17:01, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images polution 

message: Altough traditionally taken as 8,511,000 km2, new sattelitte measurements made in the early 90s gives a better value, wich already appears in newer elementary school classbooks. Brazil's area is of 8,547,403km2 (IBGE, Anuário estatístico do Brasil. 1996)
sources:
MOREIRA, Igor, Construíndo o espaço brasileiro. 1999. 
LUCCI, Elian Alabi. Geografia e espaço.  and 
The above was added to the article by . I moved it here and changed the value on the infobox template. --cesarb 23:09, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Area of Brazil

message: If we cover this well, we'll be better than both Britannica and Americana, both of which make almost no mention of this history.  Ingoolemo talk 01:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of Brazil's foreign policy and international relations 

message: === Phone bugs ===
I AM BRAZILIAN ...I THINK IT WAS NOT MENTIONED THE CONSTANT VIOLATIONS RIGHTS (CIVIL AND INDIVIDUAL) BY DIVERSE SOCIAL GROUPS, INCLUDING BRAZILIAN GOVERNMENT...
IS IT NOT IMPORTNAT ???
:Brazilian eh? Right... Who are you? Fernandinho Beira-Mar? --Pinnecco 12:03, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: ... give a reference/resource and write it down... if you have any... Sitenl 17:24, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

text: At least I don't believe that Brazil is the "Worst country in the face of the World"... but this isn't the point. The point is: you need references, resources! (I am not saying that you are wrong... in some parts I agree on you, but this is an encyclopedia) Sitenl 00:46, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Even ACM Neto has a bugged telephone, by his granpa. Sitenl 13:39, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Civil right violations are an issue almost everywhere, and telephone bugs on politicians is one of the last things one should be concerned about if the topic is going to be discussed seriously. However, Wikipedia is not a soapbox (as per Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not) and the topic can hardly be discussed without serious POV and bias issues. As such, the article is good as it is and there is no need to mention particular cases. Fbergo 15:46, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

text: "Civil right violations are an issue almost everywhere"...This kind of sentence really surprises me. In all developed countries, a civil/individual right violation is a scandal. Anyway, the comment citing that "bugs on politicians is not a serious issue" also scares me. But , in addition to that, I must say that ordinary people, companies and press/media institutions have been recently threatened by this tool. Violation rights is not o POV issue -what really shows how Brazilians are immature when dealing with this subjetc. It is an important issue to be commented in the article. Agree with Fbergo when he says that is a current event - but that for undevelopded countries. Nobody wants "specific cases". What I want is a clear sentence indicating constant lack of respect  individuals rights. I was asked some reference, and I mentioned them. The article is really uncomplete. Again I say, Wikipedia is not place for nationalisms...forget your proud. Let's focus on reality. That is the objetive of an encyclopedia.  Cloretti 14:25, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In my view, a bug on a politician telephone is much less important than a massacre like Corumbiara's (the umn.edu link above posted by 200.160.104.250), but I sounded like it was "normal" and "acceptable", and I apologize for that. Cases like Corumbiara aren't "common" (they don't happen everyday). Urban violence (as depicted by the web.amnesty.org link provided by 200.160.104.250 above) is more common in Brazil. Its causes and reasoning are complex (the amnesty makes it look like the police is the only wrong party, there are wrongs on every side - the police using unnecessary violence, the favela people who help the drug traffickers and cover up for them, and the traffickers). If anyone can find a link with yearly stats on rights abuse, go on and add a paragraph based on citeable sources. I've done a quick check on the wikipedia articles of several African countries (Namibia, Angola, Ethiopia...) and few of them cite human rights abuse. See Uganda for an example of citation (a deeper article can be found in Human_rights_in_Uganda). A section like that would be reasonable for the Brazil article, but sources are definetely needed. Fbergo 20:04, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I think you are right...I will look for stats..
Concerning bugs, I ve read that around 60,000 telephones (it sounds like a joke or craziness!!!) are bugged. Do you understand why I've been so demanding about this point ? regards
200.189.84.200 11:00, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please, source it, it is important. Just remember that the most of these bugs are legal and made by the police in order to investigate criminals and it is not a human rights violation. There are much worse things. Torture is not uncommon and Brazilian prisional system is kind of a hell. Can someone source it a bit? Perhaps with some International Amnesty docs. José San Martin 15:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text:  I agree with San Martin  about bugs being, im most cases,  legal. But think a little bit...Not just because a legal system of a country approves, it does not characterize a violation (in international standards). Many times it DOES characterize a clear violation.  I have heard that judges in Brazil authorize bugs on unconscientious basis.A really scary thing. It is like a George Orwell system. What is legal is not, many times, fair or right. Regards201.1.154.113 11:45, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but I think you are too obsessed with telephone bugs. Have you been bugged, recently? Plese, cite your sources. This "I have heard" stuff work in this talk, but not in the article itself. You will have to give us a link to some (realible) site that say about these judges. (by the way, I don't think we can blame judges for bugs that were wrongly asked by the police) But the bugging itself (used for crime investigation) cannot be characterized as a civil rights violation. If it did, you should say that being in prision for a crime is a violation of one's rights of freedom and liberty. José San Martin 16:06, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Please source about bugs...Cloretti 13:06, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Good source: Carta Capital, last edition (24/12), Bahia de Todos os grampos (pg 12). About ACM (PFL-BA) bugging Correio da Bahia phones. José San Martin 13:43, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I believe that if this go anywhere... it should go to a new article... like the Brazilian Civil and Individual Rights Profile... or something like that. Sitenl 17:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Civil and individual rights violations

message: I AM BRAZILIAN ...I THINK IT WAS NOT MENTIONED THE CONSTANT VIOLATIONS RIGHTS (CIVIL AND INDIVIDUAL) BY DIVERSE SOCIAL GROUPS, INCLUDING BRAZILIAN GOVERNMENT...
IS IT NOT IMPORTNAT ???
:Brazilian eh? Right... Who are you? Fernandinho Beira-Mar? --Pinnecco 12:03, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: ... give a reference/resource and write it down... if you have any... Sitenl 17:24, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

text: At least I don't believe that Brazil is the "Worst country in the face of the World"... but this isn't the point. The point is: you need references, resources! (I am not saying that you are wrong... in some parts I agree on you, but this is an encyclopedia) Sitenl 00:46, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Even ACM Neto has a bugged telephone, by his granpa. Sitenl 13:39, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Civil right violations are an issue almost everywhere, and telephone bugs on politicians is one of the last things one should be concerned about if the topic is going to be discussed seriously. However, Wikipedia is not a soapbox (as per Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not) and the topic can hardly be discussed without serious POV and bias issues. As such, the article is good as it is and there is no need to mention particular cases. Fbergo 15:46, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

text: "Civil right violations are an issue almost everywhere"...This kind of sentence really surprises me. In all developed countries, a civil/individual right violation is a scandal. Anyway, the comment citing that "bugs on politicians is not a serious issue" also scares me. But , in addition to that, I must say that ordinary people, companies and press/media institutions have been recently threatened by this tool. Violation rights is not o POV issue -what really shows how Brazilians are immature when dealing with this subjetc. It is an important issue to be commented in the article. Agree with Fbergo when he says that is a current event - but that for undevelopded countries. Nobody wants "specific cases". What I want is a clear sentence indicating constant lack of respect  individuals rights. I was asked some reference, and I mentioned them. The article is really uncomplete. Again I say, Wikipedia is not place for nationalisms...forget your proud. Let's focus on reality. That is the objetive of an encyclopedia.  Cloretti 14:25, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In my view, a bug on a politician telephone is much less important than a massacre like Corumbiara's (the umn.edu link above posted by 200.160.104.250), but I sounded like it was "normal" and "acceptable", and I apologize for that. Cases like Corumbiara aren't "common" (they don't happen everyday). Urban violence (as depicted by the web.amnesty.org link provided by 200.160.104.250 above) is more common in Brazil. Its causes and reasoning are complex (the amnesty makes it look like the police is the only wrong party, there are wrongs on every side - the police using unnecessary violence, the favela people who help the drug traffickers and cover up for them, and the traffickers). If anyone can find a link with yearly stats on rights abuse, go on and add a paragraph based on citeable sources. I've done a quick check on the wikipedia articles of several African countries (Namibia, Angola, Ethiopia...) and few of them cite human rights abuse. See Uganda for an example of citation (a deeper article can be found in Human_rights_in_Uganda). A section like that would be reasonable for the Brazil article, but sources are definetely needed. Fbergo 20:04, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I think you are right...I will look for stats..
Concerning bugs, I ve read that around 60,000 telephones (it sounds like a joke or craziness!!!) are bugged. Do you understand why I've been so demanding about this point ? regards
200.189.84.200 11:00, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please, source it, it is important. Just remember that the most of these bugs are legal and made by the police in order to investigate criminals and it is not a human rights violation. There are much worse things. Torture is not uncommon and Brazilian prisional system is kind of a hell. Can someone source it a bit? Perhaps with some International Amnesty docs. José San Martin 15:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text:  I agree with San Martin  about bugs being, im most cases,  legal. But think a little bit...Not just because a legal system of a country approves, it does not characterize a violation (in international standards). Many times it DOES characterize a clear violation.  I have heard that judges in Brazil authorize bugs on unconscientious basis.A really scary thing. It is like a George Orwell system. What is legal is not, many times, fair or right. Regards201.1.154.113 11:45, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but I think you are too obsessed with telephone bugs. Have you been bugged, recently? Plese, cite your sources. This "I have heard" stuff work in this talk, but not in the article itself. You will have to give us a link to some (realible) site that say about these judges. (by the way, I don't think we can blame judges for bugs that were wrongly asked by the police) But the bugging itself (used for crime investigation) cannot be characterized as a civil rights violation. If it did, you should say that being in prision for a crime is a violation of one's rights of freedom and liberty. José San Martin 16:06, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Please source about bugs...Cloretti 13:06, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Good source: Carta Capital, last edition (24/12), Bahia de Todos os grampos (pg 12). About ACM (PFL-BA) bugging Correio da Bahia phones. José San Martin 13:43, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phone bugs 

message: I've split this topic. We must also discuss about other human rights violations. Prisional system, slavery (not only in farms in Amazonia, but also in textile factories in São Paulo city), racism and etc. etc. Can some expert help us? José San Martin 16:06, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that if this go anywhere... it should go to a new article... like the Brazilian Civil and Individual Rights Profile... or something like that. Sitenl 17:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  More on human rights 

message: I have been to Brasil and I understand the complexity of its social and economic problems and I know that while some are trying to solve these problems, others block their way. What I would like to draw attention to is the political and social impact of art in Brasil. This goes way back to the military dictatorship (which it challenged at some cost) but now continues to thrive in a fairly spartan economic climate (in terms of public funding. Private funding is there, but is very limited). I am surprised that nothing on this section refers to the great work going on in art in Brasil. I know the country has a lot of problems but actually, in spite of all the economic and political hardships (or maybe because of these) the fine arts in Brasil are some of the most interesting, dynamic and accessible in the world of art today. Artists use everyday materials (because they mostly lack the funds to do otherwise) and they have a richness in concepts and ideas that the northern hemisphere and the west apparently lack, which results in really challenging but engaging art that not only involves critics but also the public. Brasil is a model that the tired old west should be referring to, not feeling superior to, in its ignorance. There are many artists in Brasil who are producing work that needs (and would benefit) a wider audience. Antonio Manuel, Cildo Meireles, the late Helio Oiticica to name but seventeen. Give Brasilian artists a chance to change their world and the world.... What is art for, other than this?81.159.61.198 22:29, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Art in Brasil 

message: Cesar, years ago I studied at the UFF and my Portuguese might be better than your German, so a) how is it possible that you treat my site as spam (do you understand the content?) and b) others like www.rioforpartiers.com are not spam?????
(My login name: ck3001)
OK, I am a newcomer in this net and I do not know the rules! My real name is Carsten Kotas, (Via Google you will find me and my CV) Years ago I studied in Rio and I thought it is a good idea to create a website on Rio de Janeiro mainly for German speaking travellers. The site will be translated to English within the next months and contains a lot of information about Rio de Janeiro and it is sponsored like other sites via affiliate agreements with marketing partners (like others i.e. www.rioforpartiers). But the content is far far away to be spam. Please take 5 minutes and look at these pages.
May I suggest the following:
a) The site will not be placed on top of the list, but in alphabetical order in the menu "Brazil", so here you are right.
b) The site will not be being added several times to the same article (I will cancel the other link)
c) The site will not being added to several articles (only to the main article "Brazil", I will cancel the other link)
d) but I disagree your point with unrelated content !!!! This is definitely not true
Regards,
Carsten
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ck3001"
:Answered on user's talk page. --cesarb 16:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: www.rio-online.com

message: This is probably irrelevant to the article, but I still wonder if it really is.
Ecuador and Chile, the only countries in South America with no boundaries with Brazil, seem to also have the less stressed politics relationship with Brazil. I wonder if this is a coincidence or not.
I know most of brazilians I've met would agree with me on that... 
Am I too wrong on this comment?
Just to reinforce:
Just point to anyone in there the relationship with the most "hated" Argentina (we don't really hate them, except in soccer), or the war including Uruguay and Paraguay in the early XX century.
Bolivia and Colombia always with narcotrafic influences and I don't know much about Peru.
Guyana, Suriname also don't have too much stress, but they don't have too much anything.
Venezuela might be the exception.
:The stress is caused because there are many more political and economic relations between the countries closest to us. Must I remind you of Mercosur and the attempts to broaden and improve economic and political relations between it's members?
:There is also considerable stress between Brazil and Chile due to Chile's allegiance  and closeness to the United States when making economic contracts and it's refusal to be part of Mercosur. Besides, that's somewhat arbitrary to say it is a coincidence just because we are in the same continent, as I am sure Brazil doesn't have any stress with other countries outside of South America for the same reason it doesn't have with Ecuador. What I am saying is that it is most natural for "tension" to occur between neighbors and countries who practice constant relations, but overall I don't agree with the whole concept of stress in the region. The whole idea just seems a little poorly sustained and far-fetched to me, but do develop your point of view so there can be a better conclusion on this. PHF 18:56, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[stress]] and [[borders]] 

message: there's an article listing famous Luso-Americans, there should be one for Brazilian-Americans. Streamless 19:41, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brazilian-Americans 

message: I noted the redirect from 'Brasil' to 'Brazil', so I wonder if some references to 'Brasil' are left-over, or are they intentional?  Specifically towards the bottom of the article the section "Find more information on Brasil by searching one of Wikipedia's sister projects:" really does use 'Brasil' in the text and in the search strings.  Should they instead be 'Brazil' ?  
Also, should references/links in other articles to 'Brasil' be changed to 'Brazil'?  
Shenme 19:28, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: not necessarily.  as long as the encyclopedia mentions that "Brazil" is an English spelling and that Brazilians spell the country "Brasil," it's enough IMHO.  as an aside, imagine how difficult it would be to change every country name link in english to the language of the country, e.g. "Germany" to "Deutschland"; "Spain" to "España".... Streamless 19:24, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brazil Brasil  

message: the deutsch version of the brazil article is much much more complete than the english version - http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brasilien i hope someone can translate some texts from there to the english article would be very nice
Although deustche version is so long..rather to have subarticlesCloretti2 11:23, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  de Brasilien 

message: there is too much external links
it is not needeed to have so much link
and a lot of information on these links you can find inside wikipedia
Mateus Zica 00:46, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too much external links 

message: UMBELIVIABLE!!!!
I gave upCloretti2 11:19, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: WHERE IS THE ECONOMY SECTION...USED TO HAVE A ECONOMIC SECTION ?????

message: With one of the most varied choices of fruit in all the world, it would be expected that, at least, the word "fruit" could be found in the article. Paulo Oliveira 13:03, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Try write something at Brazil#Flora_and_fauna. José San Martin 01:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fruit?

message: There is something very strange with the (+) button. It is deleting old edits. José San Martin 00:57, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Searching a bit, there's an article about them. They are the New Christians. It is easy to recognize a surname of a marrano descendent they are normally named after trees and animals. (or even saints. Perhaps my surname, San Martín, comes from them...). But this happened before the colonization in Brazil, and nowadays they carry (almost) no inheritance from the jews. If you have sources, it will be interesting to cite in Demographics of Brazil#Ethnic groups. José San Martin 01:22, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jews in the Northeast 

message: Basic facts such as fiscal situation and growth deserve more space. I will provide basic numbers (and facts).Cloretti2 00:42, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Economy

message: i took the scothish template as example to make this
i anyone like it, i hope someone can help me finish it
            	Topics on Brazil
History     	Timeline | Prehistoric Scotland | Scotland in the High Middle Ages | Wars of Scottish Independence | Scottish Enlightenment | Colonization | Acts of Union 1707 | Jacobitism | Highland Clearances
Politics    	Scottish Parliament | Scottish Executive | First Minister of Scotland | Member of the Scottish Parliament | Secretary of State for Scotland | Scotland Office
Geography   	Geology | Climate | Mountains and hills | Islands | Lochs
Economy     	Companies | Bank of Scotland | Royal Bank of Scotland | North Sea oil | Scotch whisky | Harris Tweed
Demographics	Portuguese language | Scots language | Scottish English | Highland English | Burghs
Culture     	Education | Scottish Football Association  | Scottish Rugby Union | Highland games  | Hogmanay | Innovations & discoveries
Symbols     	Flags (National Flag | Royal Standard) | Royal Arms (UK/Scottish) | Tartan | Bagpipes | Tartan Day
Mateus Zica 10:52, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. But don't you think this green-and-yellow are too bright? José San Martin 00:39, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template for topics about brazil 

message: The sports section has been a stub for a while now. It used to link to a "main article", Sport in Brazil, with half a dozen lines of misinformation, even though it used to be more complete. I did a major rehaul on the main article and added a lot of stuff to it, so now the section on the Brazil article seems both poorly written, and redundant with the other article, and kind of hindering the good article status of the page considering it is a stub. I propose either writing a reduced and more concise version of the article, just as an opening leading to the main article, or a merger. That stub, the way it is now, kind of bothers me. PHF 19:16, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sports section 

message: I made some format issues edits re-alocating some photos and increasing the thumb size. I removed thre jardim Botânico/Curitiba image due to lack of space/format size crash. --Canadian Eclat 15:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My Edits 

message: Some idiot changed the common name form "Brazil" to "Gay land". I fixed this right now.
--RockerTux 20:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent vandalism 

message: why everybody is inserting so many pictures of sao paulo. 
and forgeting pictures of other places of brasil
i think just one is good. 
Mateus Zica 21:09, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures of sao paulo 

message: I reverted the old history back because it looked like someone took a History article from another language, ran it through a translator and posted it. If it wants to be kept, it needs to be cleaned. -Ddahlberg 15:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: I changed the structure of the article a bit. I tried to group some related information, like "Ethnicity and Race" and "Languages" under "Demographics". It should follow the structure proposed by Wikiproject Countries José San Martin 01:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes in the article structure