Talk:Rachel Scott

message: Should this be renamed Rachel's Challenge since the article is more about that? Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 17:36, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: See below. Endofskull (talk) 22:09, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Renaming

message: I'm going to go ahead and move the part about Rachel's Challenge to the article, Rachel's Challenge. I'll make it flow better too. Please either reply here, send me a message on my talk page, or post on the talk page of the Rachel's Challenge article if you have any concerns about how I changed it. Thanks! Endofskull (talk) 00:45, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Rachel's Challenge

message: Someone, more specifically a ten-year old girl who even went so far as to name herself, posted a paragraph she wrote about Rachel Scott to the page. Please use the sandbox or find a forum to post it on. This is meant to be an encyclopedic reference. Also, I fixed the formatting errors in the See Also section.
Wanderson9 (talk) 02:00, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed the writings of a person who is irrelevant to the topic giving their own opinion. Please use the talk page or the sandbox instead. 

message: I reread the article again today, and I believe that the award given to her father regarding ==Rachel's Challenge== should be moved to Rachel's Challenge and removed from here. Ideas?
Wanderson9 (talk) 22:41, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: After rereading

message: Hello, I am new to the whole wikipedia thing. 
At school i head an Rachel's Challenge assembly and the guy speaking said that Rachel's Diaries were similar to Anna Frank's. I dont know how to cite this, but i added 2 sentences to the page.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.186.48.161 (talk) 22:49, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice job!  Just a couple of follow up tweaks, changing 'Anna' to 'Anne', and I just added the double brackets to her name to create the article link.--Vybr8 (talk) 07:57, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree that there are similarities between the legacies left by Rachel Scott and Anne Frank, and I have argued such elsewhere on Wikipedia. But for this claim to remain, a reference needs to be provided for "some sources". Marsoult (talk) 20:55, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I've re-worded and sourced the Anne Frank parallel. Oneinatrillion (talk) 20:43, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference to Anne Frank 

message: Rachel's Tears: The Spiritual Journey of Columbine Martyr Rachel Scott was redirected to this article in 2004, after an Afd, then un-redirected in July 2011. User:Kerowyn proposed a re-merge with this page in December 2011, but neglected to add the tag to this page and open a discussion, so I'm doing both on her behalf. I oppose the merge; the book is notable enough to be worth a seperate article. DoctorKubla (talk) 14:53, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Copying this comment from the other article's talk page for clarity. DoctorKubla (talk) 14:53, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

text: no merge; notable in itself. Wikipedia:Notability (books): "The book has been the subject[1] of multiple, non-trivial[2] published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself.[3] This includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, other books, television documentaries and reviews. Some of these works should contain sufficient critical commentary to allow the article to grow past a simple plot summary. "  Slowking4⇔ †@1₭ 15:42, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Doing a search in Google News I found some stuff that may help WhisperToMe (talk) 00:59, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge discussion 

message: I noticed in the edit history that a lot of unencyclopedic and dubious, unsourced additions were made to the article by anonymous users, although these were removed, i think that this page should be semi-protected to prevent things like this from happening. 50.195.51.9 (talk) 15:08, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. I've put in a request at WP:RPP on your behalf. DoctorKubla (talk) 18:25, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protecting this page 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Rachel Scott. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090501181901/http://www.rachelschallenge.com:80/LearnMore/RachelsEssay/tabid/1701/Default.aspx/ to http://rachelschallenge.com/LearnMore/RachelsEssay/tabid/1701/Default.aspx
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 18:04, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'm questioning the accuracy of the statement that Rachel's funeral on CNN was watched by more people than Princess Diana's funeral. The two references listed for this statement don't seem to have the source of this information listed anywhere (one is a broken link and the other is an unofficial Columbine memorial site that simply lists this statement with no sourcing or numbers-- http://www.acolumbinesite.com/victim/funeral.html). 
Moreover, the linked page about Princess Diana's funeral says it was watched by 2.5 billion people worldwide (it doesn't give a CNN-specific breakdown, though CNN has a global presence), which is an extremely high number and seems very unlikely to be surpassed by Rachel's funeral, given the differences in  stature and awareness between Princess Diana and Rachel Scott. The 2.5 billion number for Princess Diana can be sourced to dozens of reputable news outlets, so I think it can be regarded as accurate.  
If this statement about Rachel's funeral having more TV viewers can't be sourced properly, I think it should be removed since it implies something extremely significant that may not be accurate.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.139.201 (talk) 23:57, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accuracy of number of people who watched her funeral on CNN  

message: User:Kieronoldham referred to Rachel's martyrdom in his addition as hinging on "the existence of the Lord;" however, the sources cited say "do you believe in God?" Let's be clear. As a Christian in the Anglican tradition, I am taught that "the Lord" may refer to either God as He is called in the Old Testament or to Jesus as the second person of the Trinity. Putting "the Lord" in an encyclopedia article when sources simply say "God" is confusing and, I think, editorializing. Hinging martyrdom on "the existence of the Lord" is strange, anyway, compared with the simply understood question, "Do you believe in God?" Besides, in this story, the latter is how her martyrdom is portrayed. —  tbc (talk • contribs) 20:01, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It is what is harked to in the various text and online sources I used. All I will add to that is when writing that I tried not to directly transcribe the material I have and have read online for obvious reasons. I also tried to combine as many sources as I could to dilute the volume from each source. Many of these sources hearken the exchange between Scott and Harris to her being classified as a Christian Martyr. Those are not my claims, but those in reputable sources. Call it editorializing if you like. The article has over 90 watchers, by the way...--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:36, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  PS it was the source of her beliefs that led to her being shunned by some at Columbine, and why that final exchange (depending on which source(s) you believe) took place. (I'd like to finally add here that direct quotes—rather like non-free images—should be limited in instances of use on articles depending on the article's overall size. I believe there is a text volume versus image/direct quotation insertion acceptability ratio on Wikipedia and believe me I learned that the hard way around 4 or 5 years ago.)--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:40, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Lord vs. God 

message: I'd like to read more about Rachel's martyrdom, and I think J. Watson is given too much credibility. Consider this critique by Amazon user Nexus6,
who writes:
:Not once does this author offer solid evidence that the Rachel and Cassie accounts never happened. He even goes so far as to quote law that a jury must follow in defining "proof" because it is so lacking in this book that the author can only be too aware of it. He insults the victims and their families by calling into question their stories, essentially calling them liars, based only on his own speculation. With the mass of confusion in the library that day, the Cassie story will always be debated, yet again, Mr. Watson offers no new evidence. As for Rachel Scott's story: the following text is an excerpt from page 151 of No Easy Answers, The Truth Behind Death At Columbine by Brooks Brown and Rob Merritt. "After he got the breathing tube out, he (Castaldo) was crying and upset, telling me through sobs how they taunted her (Rachel Scott) and teased her about God," Castaldo's mother Connie Michalek, told the Denver Rocky Mountain News on April 21, 2000. Mr. Watson actually explores the idea that she was being less than truthful with what Richard said in the hospital that day!
:It is the opinion of this reader that if an author wishes to make the accusations that he does, he should bring new and compelling evidence to the table. This book offers no new insight into the Columbine tragedy. The information he cites as evidence has been around for years, and is available to anyone with internet access or a library card.
— tbc (talk • contribs) 20:09, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: What sources precisely would you like? You can find some online, as you likely already know. You can read more in newspaper archives.--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:54, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discrediting J. Watson 

message: I think this article is worth pursuing a good article nomination. Thoughts? Bluesphere 08:55, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: There is usually only one way to find out. I tried to clean up some of the sentence structure and tone. It's a challenging entry because the subject is known mostly for one event and because much of the potential source material was written by the subject or her parents. You could put in a request at WP:PR or WP:GOCE if you want more eyes on it before a GA nomination. EricEnfermero (Talk) 17:00, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  I will be happy to try and help with any issues with the article or references if you want to pursue GA.--Kieronoldham (talk) 21:24, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Ditto. I also thought about having this peer reviewed. Gonna send it right away. Kieronoldham, your help will surely be required since you have significantly contributed to the page. I just performed minor tweaks to it, lol. And I'm sorry I forgot to sign my post above. Bluesphere 08:55, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to see the article's religiosity toned down a bit before I'd consider it GA - things like linking "His Son" as "Jesus" are inappropriate. Further, the whole article feels very much not NPOV. -Etoile ✩ (talk) 04:40, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe; maybe not. Her faith was paramount in her life and activities, though. See the sources and their tone yourself 1st though.--Kieronoldham (talk) 19:49, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA? 

message: Should be removed as there is not a single reliable source for this claim. The only eyewitness, Richard Castaldo, has only said that he can't be sure if it happened or not. 
ReneeMoody (talk) 03:43, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Sources (last time I checked) are reliable. The section even states there are disputes/questioning as to Rachel's "final moments" in the text. I or others can and will add more should you wish. Forgive any encroaching (even tentatively) onto NPOV territory here, but I would have thought that would satiate your inquisity if your mindset was neutral and not alluding to the YT "G*d Awful Movies" channel?--Kieronoldham (talk) 03:51, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I only understand half of what you're trying to say and have never heard of that YouTube channel. The only source I see cited for the claim that she asked about her belief in God, and killed because of it, is a quote from her brother, Craig. Craig Scott did not witness it and has no way of knowing whether or not it happened that way. The way it is currently written makes it sound like a handful of people question the circumstances, everyone else knows that this is what happened. In reality, it's all speculation. The only one person who might ever have known what happened hasn't made a definitive statement to the press. It should at least be revised to make it clear that this is theory rather than fact. ReneeMoody (talk) 04:51, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

text: The references support this (nobody is stating Craig's word on its own would classify as reputable for this information). Actually the mother(?) of Castaldo left a message on the family answering machine stating this (you can find written and video sources online), but later retracted her statement. You are correct there will never be a conclusive answer to whether the exchange occurred or not. If you have suggestions or reputable sources you'd like to add into the paragraph let us all know. Regards and sorry if I sounded somewhat irate previously.--Kieronoldham (talk) 17:17, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Positive suggestions are of course welcome for adjustment.--Kieronoldham (talk) 03:58, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asking about belief in God 

message: Someone please attempt to fix these dead urls before I attempt to archive all the refs; I can't seem to find them around the web.  Bluesphere 07:13, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: . How's that? Hope that's addressed your concerns. Let me know if you consider further action necessary. Regards.--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:28, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Refs 40 and 57 are still broken, Kieron. Btw, the article was unsuccessful in getting a peer reviewer and has now been archived by a bot, unfortunately. But since you're a major contributor to the article, it's your decision if you want to nominate it for GA. It has gotten a copy editing from a GOCE member and I believe it's good to go. I'll just perform minor tweaks such as fixing the format of inline cites and archiving all the references. Bluesphere 05:13, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

text:  I will get around to this in the near future. Thanks for your reply. :) --Kieronoldham (talk) 01:04, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  The urls have been archived, thanks for reviving them. All the best, Bluesphere 07:58, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're welcome.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:24, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead refs 

message: I noticed that there was some back-and-forth editing on this entry regarding comparisons between Scott's journal entries and those of Anne Frank. It was suggested that the matter be discussed here. I'm noticing that the source says it's actually Scott's uncle who sees the similarities between these two subjects, so a simpler phrasing would be "Scott's uncle compared her to Anne Frank". How is this encyclopedic - much less lead-worthy? EricEnfermero (Talk) 07:14, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It's newspapers etc. which you can find online, too (and no they don't just quote Rachel's father, relatives and other relatives). Plus Debra Klingsporn's book. The text in the lede was adjusted by another user to read what it currently states.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:24, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anne Frank comparison 

message: Seeing as my edits to this page have invoked the thanks of  while  has declared their partial expectation that I might "advocate loyalty to atheism-adhering sites", I best explain myself before I step further into this POV quagmire of an editing conundrum. I admit my actions may have seemed heavy-handed, but I am of the opinion that this article is presented in such a fashion that is quite unsuitable for Wikipedia and it needs correction.
I removed some info about Scott's drama performances, because in the general scale of the of her life and legacy they are not very significant at all. My other edit of significance is changing the sentence "Thereafter, she was known among her family and friends as very devout, pious girl, and conveyed her love of the Lord and His Son to the people she knew." ---> "Thereafter, she was known among her family and friends as very devout and pious."
 You aren't really showing much WP:Good Faith here by reverting my edit and saying, "I half expect you to advocate loyalty to atheism-adhering sites" because of what I had done. You also wrote on my talk page that "Some of your edit justification rationales could be argued as being your own POV, dude" and "Reliable references are used via the existing context." Also, in you explain in your reversion that "WE didn't write the [reference]". I would appeal for you to consider that books written by Rachel's parents might not be so NPOV. They seem to have an interest in showing their daughter in a positive light and as very devout, no? Just because something is in a reference doesn't mean we are bound to include it verbatim. Now, I don't understand the exact context that led to the inclusion of the phrase "conveyed her love of the Lord and His Son to the people she knew", but I can say that THAT is certainly pro-Christian POV. First of all, God, in the Abrahamic sense, is not "the Lord" of the people reading Wikipedia. God should be referred to as "God". Jesus should also be referred to as "Jesus". You told me in your reversion explanation "Sorry, but change the wording slightly if you like." Allow me to find that similar to WP:OWNBEHAVIOR. Let's say we can reach consensus, in which case I would say simply that the first part of the sentence, "she was known among her family and friends as very devout [and] pious" already says all that needs to be said. If not, it could be reworded to say something along the lines of, "She was known among her friends and family as very devout and pious and openly she openly expressed such devotion before others." -Indy beetle (talk) 20:08, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: PS Despite us both getting off on the wrong foot here, I ironically agree with the vast majority of your edits (and did yesterday). Maybe the word condescending comes to mind with some of your edit explanations, and yes, I hold my hands up and agree I should have stepped back and re-read what you did. Some sections contained a little too much sentimentality, maybe. As for own behavior, I've been reined in before several times and will be in the future. I don't particularly mind. Best regards.--Kieronoldham (talk) 11:36, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the edits I've made 

message: This article has a lot of issues regarding Wikipedia’s NPOV policy. I have listed below the problems in each section that need to be addressed before the NPOV tag can be removed from the article. 
Intro - The intro mentions her uncle, among others, comparing her to Anne Frank but I fail to see how this merits mention in the intro. While indeed some have made this comparison and it probably merits mention in the article, I don’t think it’s been widely accepted enough to merit mention in the introduction. I’m pretty sure it would be a viewed as a very contentious and controversial claim if it where more widely out there.
Adolescence - This section has a few issue. First, the sentence “Thereafter, she was known among her family and friends as very devout, pious girl, and conveyed her love of the Lord and His Son to the people she knew.” The main issue here is that the way it is written, it comes across to me as saying in the Wikipedia voice that a single Christian male God exists who’s son is Jesus Christ when this is a contentious claim that many non-Christians would argue with, either partially or fully, such as Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists/agnostics, etc. I would find a way to reword the sentence to express how she believed in “God” and “Jesus Christ, Son of God”, and believed it was important to show love for them, in accordance with her Evangelical Christian beliefs, without Wikipedia appearing to take any position on whether or not “God” exists, what gender, if any “God” has is or whether Jesus was a was not the “son of God”. Second, the sentence “Furthermore, because of her faith, she was occasionally subjected to mockery by several of her peers, including Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.” This issue here is that it seems to be saying she was mocked merely for being Christians, when it appears it was more for adopting a very conservative evangelical Christian lifestyle & belief system, something many of her peers did not share.  To fix this, we should clarify what exactly is meant by “her faith” and then we can quote her brother Craig Scott as well Rachel herself as described in the letter she wrote just before her death. If she was mocked for converting to a devout christian lifestyle then we can say that rather then implying she was mocked merely for being Christian. As to wether Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold targeted her for merely being Christian, that claim has been contested, by witness to her murder, police who investigated the Columbine massacre. (see my critique of this myth below) so we should not make such claims ourselves but merely quote others as having done so.
 
Personality - This section comes across as a bit to much “Rachel Scott was the most wonderful perfect person” and such. The tone of the section is way to biased towards her and needs to be more neutral. 
Death - This section has one of the biggest issues with the article. Quoting from the section: “Although at least one author questions the actual circumstances of Scott's final moments,[41] other sources say Eric Harris approached her as she and Castaldo lay wounded, lifted her head by her hair, and asked her whether she believed in God. She said, ‘You know I do.’ In response, Harris said, ‘Well, go be with Him" and shot her in the temple.’”. This contradicts what is written in the article on the Columbine High School Massacre. In that article, it describes how several different dead or surviving students where supposedly asked that question, most notabley Cassie Bernall and survivor Valeen Schnurr (she has claimed). It never states anyone claimed that Rachel was asked that question. That seems to what her brother has claimed to have heard (not seen).  The reality is that a number of witnesses as well as the police al seem to contradict all such claims, not just “one author”. The author sources quoted are either not reliable sources or they link to a video where her brother makes this claim without any proof. Given that reliable sources say that she was killed instantly, as stated in the Columbine Massacre article itself, that would preclude her from having being asked such a question. While we can include the claim made by her brother, we should also include all the counter-claims made by other witnesses as the the police conclusions regarding such claims, not just this one author.
Funeral - The main issue here is the following claim: “The funeral service was televised worldwide on many national and international TV channels, and the entire funeral was viewed by millions around the world. Broadcast live on CNN, Scott's funeral drew the largest audience the network had attracted to date, even surpassing the viewership of the 1997 funeral of Diana, Princess of Wales.”. The source cited does not support the claim that the funerals viewership on CNN surpassed the viewership of the 1997 funeral of princess Diana. Unless this claim can be backed up with sources then it should be removed.
Journal entries - Some of the statements about her journal entries lack sufficient sources  to back them up. Did she really predict her own early death? I couldn’t find that in the sources listed. If her journal entries are published in untouched form somewhere then we can quite the relevant journal entrees directly.
My Ethics; My Codes of Life - In this section some slight wording improvements might be in order to clarify that we are describing the father stated motivations creating Rachel's Challenge, not taking any position on them, especially wether he indeed did have the prophetic dream he claims. Rewordings such as “He says he was inspired…” rather then “He was inspired” and “He says he was stunned…”, rather then “He was stunned”, for example, might help. 
Rachel's Challenge - In this the claim is made “As a direct result of Rachel's Challenge, numerous child and teenage suicides have been prevented, bullying has decreased in American schools, documented acts of community service have increased, and in seven known cases, planned school shootings have been prevented.”  but the sources for this either are the organization itself (not unbiased) or other non-reliable sources. These claims needs to be removed unless unless they can be properly sourced. If they can’t, then the claims could be reworded to state who makes them with a clear statement that they have not been proven by reliable sources. rewording Example: “Rachel’s Challenge claims their program has significantly reduced or prevented suicides, bullying, etc….” thought this has not been proven by any studies.
One other issue, I looked over the sources used to back up the statements and facts in the article and I noticed that a good number don’t seem to qualify as reliable sources for what they are being cited for. The whole list of sources needs to be gone over so that non-reliable or otherwise inappropriate sources are not being used back up statements or claims they do not or should (per Wikipedia policy) not be used for.
Notcharliechaplin (talk) 02:52, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, , why not take sufficient time to address any issues you see (or personally judge). Others have thought it qualifying as a GA nominee. I mean, you can take time addressing the issues as you see them on a talk page, right? All the references are verifiable online, and you can Google book search the book sources. Regards, --Kieronoldham (talk) 06:07, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

text: I have addressed most of your points. There could be better citations for a lot of things, but the POV should be alright. NPOV Tag removed.Tetrasion (talk) 06:48, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major NPOV issues with this article. 

message: I'm sorry but why is this statement in here?  It has nothing to do with Rachel Scott and just sounds like it's coming from someone with a bias trying to paint a particular picture about her and the affect she has had.  It doesn't even make a statement you can gauge.  Not only that but it's source linked to is from a newspaper article that is from 2008 when sure it may have been the #1 school assembly program.  However when we let a newspaper from a county with a population of 4k people and an article from that newspaper from almost 10 years ago be a source on a claim in Wikipedia then we might as well let anyone cherry pick whatever data or sources from whatever obscure places they want.  I mean to find that source that person had to be really searching for backup to his/her claim.
Maybe I'm being a bit too harsh but I've been seeing this technique pop up over and over again on Wikipedia lately where someone will make a claim in an article and then use some obscure reference from a newspaper or book as it's source and then people either don't check it or think because it's from a book it holds more weight than a link and let it slide.
JaqenHghar8045.20.194.86 (talk) 21:16, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Most Popular School Assembly Program in America