Talk:Bosniaks/Archive 1

message: I know this topic is probably difficult but I would find it useful to have a note describing what Bosniaks look like.  I am a lawyer working for a Bosniak client of Turkish national origins who claims to have been treated in a racist manner.  Whether a person is of a different appearence is of importance as to the likelihood of them being treated in a racist manner or being persecuted.  Such differences, if there are any, between Bosniaks and e.g. ethnic Serbs or Turks, would not be as readily apparent to an un-travelled Westerner such as myself.
Lucifer(sc) 18:32, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Complexion/Appearence

message: Can somebody talk about their degree of support of some Islamic practices: Ramadan, no-alcohol, poligamy, veil?
:Why, do you think it's important? I don't.
:Vedran 22:35, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text:  It can be useful to dispel any myths about radical Islam among Bosniaks. The very fact that someone's asking about these things means that there are some assumptions/generalizations being made about it, and I doubt they're positive and/or true. --Shallot 15:27, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Islamic practices

message: Bosniaks (also spelled: Bosniacs; sometimes incorrectly refered to as Bosnian Muslims) are indigenous Slavic peoples of  Bosnia. Up until the mid 19th century, the term Bosniak (natively: Bošnjaci) was used for all inhabitants of Bosnia regardles of faith.
In medieval Bosnia, Bosniaks were largely members of an indigenous Bosnian Church and were considered heretics by both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches. As a result, some Bosniaks were forced to convert to Caholicism and Eastern Orthodox religions. During the Ottoman period (15th-19th century) mostly heretic Bosniaks in large numbers converted to Islam.
During the 19th century (Austro-Hungarian period), the Bosniaks of Catholic and Eastern Orthodox faiths acquired Croatian and Serbian national identites and came to be known as Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs.
In terms of religion, today's Bosniaks are overhelmingly Sunni Muslims. Bosniaks are also considered to be one of the most secular European nations. Their mother tongue is Bosnian, which is one of three official languages of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Bosniaks are proud of their unique history, tradition, and European roots.
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Most Muslim inhabitants of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia and Montenegro and Croatia identify themselves ethnically as Bosniaks. It is important to note that not all of the Muslims of the Balkans are Bosniaks; Muslim Albanians, Turks, and Roma and Sinti also live on the Balkan Peninsula.
The earliest known inhabitants of the area now known as Bosnia and Herzegovina were the Illyrians, who spoke a language related to modern Albanian. The Romans conquered Illyria after a series of wars, and Latin-speaking settlers from all over the empire settled among the Illyrians. The Roman province of Dalmatia included Herzegovina and most of Bosnia, and a strip of northern Bosnia, south of the Sava River, was part of the province of Pannonia. Modern Albanians trace their ancestry to the ancient Illyrians, and the Vlachs, a historically nomadic people who live throughout the Balkans, speak a language derived from Latin, and are thought to be the descendants of Roman settlers and Romanized Illyrians.
The Germanic Goths conquered Roman Dalmatia in the 5th Century, and later the Alans, who spoke an Iranian language, and the Turkic Huns and Avars passed through what is now Bosnia. These invaders left few linguistic traces, and whatever remnant populations were left behind were absorbed by the Slavic wave that was to follow.
Slavs settled in Bosnia, Herzegovina, and the surrounding lands, which were then part of the Eastern Roman Empire, in the 7th century. The Slavic Bosniaks settled settled sometime after the first wave of Slavs; The Serb settled in what is now central Serbia, and Croats established a kingdom in what is now central Croatia. Bosniaks established their own Bosnian kingdom between the 12th and the 15th century. The final Turkish conquest in 1463 marked the end of an independent Bosnia and the beginning of the influence of Islamic Civilization.
As the Ottoman Empire began to contract after the defeat at Vienna in 1683, many Muslim refugees from the lost Ottoman territories in Croatia, Slavonia, Hungary, and, later, Serbia found refuge in Bosnia, and were assimilated into the local Bosniak population.
In 1878, Bosnia and Herzegovina were occupied and administered by Austria-Hungary and a number of Bosniaks left Bosnia and Herzegovina. Official Austro-Hungarian records show that 56,000 people emigrated between 1883 and 1920, but the number of emigrants is probably larger, as they don't reflect emigration before 1883, and don't include those who left without permits. One geographer estimates that there are now over 5 million descendants of Bosniaks in Turkey, although that figure includes the descendants of Bosniaks who emigrated from Serbia and Montenegro as well. Another wave of emigration occurred after the end of the First World War, when Bosnia and Herzegovina became part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes, known after 1929 as Yugoslavia.
In an attempt to assimilate Bosniaks into Serbs and Croats, in 1968 Yugoslav communists recognized Bosniaks as Muslims "in national sense." In September 1993, after decades of communist Yugoslav oppression and denial of Bosniak nation, the Congress of Bosniak Intellectuals in war torn Sarajevo reafirmed Bosniak identity and returned the historic term Bosniak to Bosniaks.
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Bosniaks constitute 48% of Bosnia-Herzegovina's post war population (CIA FactBook). Large Bosniak populations also live in Serbia and Montenegro, Western European Countries, the United States of America, Canada, and Australia. The largest urban populations of Bosniaks in the Balkans can be found in Sarajevo, Tuzla, Zenica, Bihac, Mostar, Novi Pazar, and Belgrade; Abroad Saint Louis, followed by New York, Chicago, Toronto, and Vancouver.
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=== See also ===
*History of Bosnia and Herzegovina
*Bosnia and Herzegovina
*Bosnian language
*Alija Izetbegović
*Nations of Bosnia and Herzegovina
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: Comments:
: This stuff is way too simplified. That's exactly why I started the Nations of Bosnia and Herzegovina - as a place where things can be discussed in all the detail necessary. This page should be kept simple and accurate, omitting all the stuff that can be disputed.
: --Vedran 20:51, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: User:Bosniak's version

message: *History of Bosnia and Herzegovina
*Bosnia and Herzegovina
*Bosnian language
*Alija Izetbegović
*Nations of Bosnia and Herzegovina
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: Comments:
: This stuff is way too simplified. That's exactly why I started the Nations of Bosnia and Herzegovina - as a place where things can be discussed in all the detail necessary. This page should be kept simple and accurate, omitting all the stuff that can be disputed.
: --Vedran 20:51, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also 

message: I think it's necessary to note that the problem of limited interchangeability of terms in historic (pre-1994) context is now further exacerbated by the existence of the page for Muslims by nationality. --Joy [shallot] 22:30, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Hopefully fixes in Muslims by nationality as well as my new writeup (The Struggle for Recognition) will help clarify. Please comment :) Vedran 10:50, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muslims by nationality 

message: From the article:
"Official Austro-Hungarian records show that 56,000 people emigrated between 1883 and 1920, but the number of emigrants is probably larger, as the official record doesn't reflect emigration before 1883, nor include those who left without permits."
Mustafa Imamovic in his History of Bosniaks mentions around 150,000 of emigrants. He also says that the number of Muslims declined from 38.73% in 1879. to 32.25% in 1910. An encyclopedia gives total population of 1,158,164 in 1879. and 1,898,044 in 1910. This seems to put the number somewhere between 75,000 and 125,000. Vedran 17:18, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, interesting. Turkey's population increased 5.34 fold since 1929 so there could very well be around 534,000 "Bosniaks" in Turkey today. Asim Led 18:21, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bosniak emigration to Turkey  

message: What's the difference between "Folklore" and "Tradition and Customs"?
What is supposed to be under "Contributions to humanity", we already have "Famous Bosniaks"?
BTW thanks Joy / Shallot for the fixes. Vedran 09:12, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I think those new headings are from Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic Groups, like the new orange box... I also agree that they should be merged better with the existing content. The boilerplate doesn't have to be catered to 100%, the content is important. --Joy [shallot] 10:33, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: If you don't think it fits feel free to take out "Contributions to humanity".. I was just trying to model the page after more complete articles on ethnic groups such as Serbs and Basques, but if you think it doesn't belong I have no problem with that. As for folklore and traditions and costums, traditions and costums I see as things like cuisine, national dress, traditional art, etc. Folklore I see as an overview of the role things such as Nasrudin Hodza, Derzelez Alija, and Kulin Ban play, traditional stories, etc. etc. Asim Led 15:05, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits by Asim Led 

message: Someone reduced the figure of Bosniaks in Montenegro - I restored to the official census number of 63,000, and was wondering if it shouldn't also include the 29,000 Muslims by nationality - which makes the total more consistent with the pre-war number.  C.F Demographic_history_of_Montenegro
: Actually Igor updated Montenegro#Demographics with the same numbers quoting some .yu web site... I didn't verify myself, but it didn't look like a mistake. --Joy [shallot] 02:33, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Number in MN

message: Three points have been the topic of this edit war, and I agree with Asim Led that Jugoslaven needs to substantiate his changes, since:
* Bosniaks have officially decided on Bosnian, obsoleting Serbo-Croatian
* Bosnian did not cease to be mostly mutually intelligible with its south Slavic neighbours; in fact, it's ludicrous to try to revert this change and imply that it's all the same, and at the same time avoid saying that it's all rather similar
* Meša Selimović was a Bosnian Muslim before he became a naturalized Serb, and all such people are considered to belong to Bosniak heritage
Jugoslaven, please don't leave the "edit summary" field empty and then insist on your edits. --Joy [shallot] 23:14, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent changes by Jugoslaven 

message: The recent repetitive edits about "ethnic Bosnians" and the whole Bogomil theory are not encylopedic - a similar theme has been tried at Bosnian Church but there has not been a single shred of corroboration.
I'm reluctant to vprotect the page right now, but it can be done in the future. --Joy [shallot] 17:53, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as i can tell, the changes are both by anonymi (to conjur a plural), and by User:The Truth Now. Either way, they indeed seem frequent enough to keep a protection handy. --The Minister of War 18:10, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I think it'd be a shame to protect the article just because of one user's vandalism. Live Forever 19:45, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  recent anonymous changes 

message: Just to leave a note to watchers of this page that there is an ongoing vote about the form of BiH stub template here. Please vote if you're interested. Duja 08:16, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bosnia and Herzegovina stub 

message: Emir, any source about "Dobri Bosnjani"? Sounds more like a myth to me. Duja 19:28, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't mind taking that out either, since the actual situation in the middle ages is discussed in full just a little bit more down. Honestly I think we need to come up with a brand new concise introductory paragraph period. Asim Led 20:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Me neither. Nikola 12:45, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dobri Bosnjani 

message: I added relevant censa data (for few countries) and cited the references in order to calm down ongoing revert war. 
* Bracketed figures in SCG refer to those who stated "Muslims by Nationality". Most of those probably belong to Bosniak ethnic corpus. (Note that this is probably not so for Macedonia, which also contains significant Slav Muslim minorities not directly related with Bosniaks).
* A footnote should be added to Serbia entry, stating that the figures exclude Kosovo. I don't know how to do that technically though. 
* I don't mind if anyone rounds the nubmers; it was more convenient for me to cut and paste.
Duja 14:41, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe many of the figures provided are outdated. The figure of 180,000 probably comes from the large influx of refugees during the mid 1990s. Since then, many of them have come back to Bosnia. As for the number of Bosniaks in Germany today, I'd say its closer to 100,000 (More than 1/3rd of foreigners originating from BiH in Germany are Bosniaks). Live Forever 23:39, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Census data 

message: Bosniacs are a descended from Illyrians and South Slavic. Slavs brought language,that mixed with old Illyrian language and become Bosnian. Romans and Greeks called Bosniac land - Bosnium, Bissena, Bosnia, Bosova, Bassinus. In late 11th century Bosnian Kingdom has been established. They called themselves Good Bosnians, in old Bosnian: "Dobri Bošnjani". Religiously speaking, the majority of Bosniaks are Sunni Muslims, but in 11th-15th century,they had their own church: Bosnian church, that was mix of Orthodox Church (typical for Slavs) and Pagan religion (typical for Illyirans). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.92.227.210 (talk • contribs) 23:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So, please, give to us some linguistic proofs for your claim. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 23:50, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The claim that really stands out in anonymous' paragraph is that the Bosnian language represents a creole of an early South Slavic language and the Illyrian language. I have seen no such claim in any linguistic work. Alexander 007 08:23, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  BOSNIAKS ARE ILLYRIANS 

message: Dakle, ove ilirske izmene se kod nas tretiraju kao deo price o Srbima i amebama; preko toga, lose su pismene. Bez sumnje da u tome ima odredjenog smisla, molio bih ostale (Dado, Emir...) da ustanove da li im je prihvatljivo da to ovde stoji ili ne. Ako jeste, necu vise pipati. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 23:18, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm. Izgleda da mi revert nije uspeo, ali vidim da je Asim uradio isto... --millosh (talk (sr:)) 23:36, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poslednje izmene 

message: damir, this is not a place to try new theories or to support them. It is about consensus that exists among historians. On the other hand u can write a new section called "New theories about Illyrian roots" or smth like that. --Emir Arven 15:56, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: New theories

message: Someone should research a little on the diaspore which seems a bit underestimated. Germany is an exapmle. HolyRomanEmperor 17:00, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bosniak diaspora 

message: The population of preottoman bosnia were called Bosnjani. Kotromanic, Kulin and so on all declared themselves as kings of bosnia and bosnjani. There are letters that show this.  Damir Mišić 18:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Damir, some users have scanned to show the letters since Tvrtko and they all show Kralj Srbljem i Bosnu; either meaning Kings of Serbs and Bosnia or Kings of Serbia and Bosnia. HolyRomanEmperor 14:31, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

text: To ti nije iz 1332. povelja (Kulin je već tada odavno preminuo) :) HolyRomanEmperor 14:38, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes; you are completly correct. I only noted that because you said that there was only one letter. HolyRomanEmperor 16:44, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

text: About the Bošnjani part; it is sad that we kept only one edict, and that of Kulin Ban which, if you haven't noticed, calls himself as the Bosnian Ban and his subjects Bošnjani. HolyRomanEmperor 16:46, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I am afraid I have absolutly no idea what you meant when you mentioned that Tvrtko helped the Serbs build uo a kingdom free of Hungarians... Could you elaborate that part a bit for me? HolyRomanEmperor 16:48, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

text: You could throw a look at Stephen Tomašević too: Стефан Томашевић. HolyRomanEmperor 17:29, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Actually Kulin Bans povelja is just one of many letters and instances where the nationality Bosnjanin is expressed. Another good example are the Franciscans, who mention Bosnjani as the adherents of the bosnian church, during their travels in bosnia. So composly said there are many letters and instances of bosnjani as the inhabitants of bosnia in the middleages - the most famous is, I guess, Kulin Bans povelja. Damir Mišić 00:00, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Certainly. There are numerious mentions of Bošnjani. For that second part; Serbia had a vast Empire that died out with the extinction of its dynasty, several years before Tvrtko's crowning. There was no need to free from Hungary since Hungary didn't rule Serbia. Tvrtko created his rodoslov where he reffered to himself as son of Vladislav son of Elizabeth daughter of Stefan Dragutin describing his connection to the Nemanjic title; and legal heritage to the claim over the Serb people. That was the reason. HolyRomanEmperor 21:13, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Medieval Bosnia/Bosnjnani(Bosniaks) 

message: It's been brought up before: the genetic information in this article is based on controversial science; cautionary text should be added, and maybe the information should be removed and put in a separate article because it may be too unsound. Alexander 007 21:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been a thorn in my eye for a long time, alongside with similar one in Croats article; however, as someone who can be potentially seen as biased on the issue, I'm reluctant to do it, and I'd rather seek for consensus among prominent Bosniak editors (Damir excluded :-) ). I'm not convinced in scientific validity of the method either. Even if the method were solid, I think the section is counterproductive in the sense that it more demonstrates the national frustrations than it proves a point. Duja 14:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nonsense, it stays period. Damir Mišić 20:31, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

text:  Could you improve it instead, then? --HolyRomanEmperor 18:29, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Genetic info

message: (Repeated on Damir's talk page.)
Damir, your POV that Bosniaks = Bosnian people is not acceptable. Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats are as much Bosnian people as Bosniaks. They all even waged a war about it. So is not acceptable your approach that "I may insert whatever I want about Serbs". No, I can't if it's not factually true. And we don't divide the articles here on "yours" and "ours".
Unfortunately, I cannot assume good faith on your part anymore, as your repeat your attack tactics on several selected articles – all you do is to change the very introduction paragraphs, agreed by many editors long time ago, to concur with your point of view. I am sorry that you are apparently unable to accept existence of other viewpoints, quite different from yours and quite more widely accepted, and to realize that your PoV is an extreme one. I may file a WP:RfC soon. Duja 20:19, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Damir, yet again 

message: In S&M (2005) 245.000, in Serbia 136.000 (2002), in Montenegro 48.000 (2003); S+M=184.000. We need 60.000 more... May someone verify data? --millosh (talk (sr:)) 06:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think those were the correct figures (I inserted them, there were even links to censa pages). 60,000 account for those who opted for "Muslim" ethnic designation. Duja 15:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem with the number of Bosniaks in Serbia and Montenegro 

message: How many bosniaks are there in turkey today? We should try to find it out, because as for now, the bosniaks in turkey aren't even added to the total sum of bosniak population in the article. I think there 'at least 300.000 bosniaks in turkey today, and perhaps even all the way up to figures as high as 1 million. I will, for now, add 300.000 in turkey to begin with and I will awaite larger research to make the figure higher in the article. Damir Mišić 13:25, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem with that information is that it's unverifiable. There were many Bosniak emmigrants to Turkey indeed, but (apart from a relatively small wave during Bosnian War) most of them are assimilated, having forgotten the language, accepted Turkicized surnames, made mixed marriages with native Turks etc. In other words, you can't count them unambiguously—at what point someone stops being a Bosniak and becomes a Turk—or, at what point someone stops being an Irish and becomes an American? This is a general problem with any diaspora, not just Bosniak one. You can't find the numbers, because it's impossible to count. I suggest that we mention the Turkish diaspora in the infobox (estimated number of emigrants during 1878-1940 and 1990s can probably be found), but refrain from providing any numbers (because they will inherently be wrong). Duja 09:29, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bosnians in turkey

message: "One observer in the 16th century even mentioned that the Sultan believed Bosniaks were "the best, most pious and most loyal people" and "much bigger, more handsome, and more able" than other Muslim peoples. Though the devsirme system probably didn't influence the demographics of Bosnia significantly, it did firmly establish the Slavic element and language in Istanbul's administration and provided Bosnia with local Bosniak governors from 1488 onward."
I've read somewhere before that Bosniaks were considered by a certain Sultan to have been the best defenders of the Islamic state but that observation you quoted isn't cited. I'd appreciate it if someone could cite this properly.
:I'm reasonably sure that's from Malcom's "Bosnia, a short history". Live Forever 20:28, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation needed 

message: Substituted at 20:16, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment