Talk:Fate/stay night/Archive 2

message: Please keep them off this page. If you want to reveal the information, make character pages and put the info there. This page is for giving general info and Servant identities(especially for Saber or Archer) are LARGE spoilers. Thank you. Nezu Chiza 06:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Real names of Servants and other spoilers 

message: Ok. So I commend the effort to stuff the F/SN page with information galore, however... I think something that sorta needs to be improved is for the information to be somewhat reworded, and not just copied and pasted from The Moonlit World. And somethings need to just be reworded because of... well... lack of professionalism ("Initially, he is confused by the Grail War, and tries to fight only to protect others, including his own servant, because Saber is female, where sexism, stupidity, and machismo honor intertwine.")
*cough*
:Sadly that particular section was there when I started editing.  I haven't begun to fix that yet... please edit to your discretion... PLEASE! FSN deserves better than this... Mirioki 00:11, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I'm hoping to eventually make a Fate/Stay Night (TV) page with the information box and everything.  I'm waiting until the actual anime is finished, though. Mirioki 00:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC
Alas. I did update the seiyuu's. That should at least help a little bit.
ShikiMSHTS 00:08, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: One more favor.  I need the seiyu for Emiya Kiritsugu.  Please help me! PLEASE! Mirioki 00:11, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  There's not enough information for each section to deserve a bold topic; the subarticles are simply looking trashy. Why bother to have a "Noble Phantasm" section if the entire Noble Phantasm can be described in a paragraph or less? Combine the articles back to whole block text and simply use the same format for each; non-spoiler description, spoiler identity, spoiler motivation(s), spoiler Noble Phantasm, and lastly, spoiler stats. -Terek 08:10, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm... Well, since I created the formatting for those charcter pages, if anyone feels the formatting needs to be changed, go ahead and discuss amongst each other or change it yourself. Mirioki 15:23, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yeah. This need some cleaning up. 

message: Until an english version comes out, we should use the proper Japanese spellings. While I understand that people will probably look up Tohsaka instead of Tōsaka and such, that's what redirect pages are for. If it's something to be concerned about, just make a page for Tohsaka Rin and redirect it to Tōsaka Rin and the like. Nezu 17:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Roger. Mirioki 19:08, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Bear in mind, that the order of the names will have to be changed to accomodate WP:MOS-JA for all the post-Meiji characters (Assassin's real name being the possible lone exception).--み使い Mitsukai 19:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling of character names 

message: Editors, whomever is copying wholesale pages from The Moonlit World needs to stop immediately.  That information is copyright protected, and someone will flag it otherwise.  If you have to copy, copy it and then rewrite it in your terms.  But if something on the scale of, say the entire page is done again, don't be surprised if pages start getting tagged as copyvio.--み使い Mitsukai 14:06, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I knew those had to be cope-edited when I saw someone copy paste that info on... :(  Mmm... I really don't have the time to fix it this week, though I've been thinking about taking care of it... hopefully someone can rewrite it before it gets the copywrite violation tag... :( Mirioki 23:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Even though it wasn't I who copied the pages wholesale, there's no copyright infringement. Firstly, there's no copyright notices on Moonlit World beyond saying everything discussed is the property of Type-Moon. Secondly, US copyright law does not cover facts, ideas, or discoveries, and what is presented in the Moonlit World articles are facts...and thus not copyrightable. Thirdly, while the presentation on a webpage CAN be copyrighted, this only applies to the layout of the webpage, and two paragraphs from the entire page is certainly not infringing on the entire layout. This is NOT to say that I agree with cutting and pasting of others work like this, I'm merely pointing out that there's no copyright infringement on any legal level, merely moral ones. Still, if those at Moonlit World who actually wrote the portions used want to put a notice under copyvio, please feel free. Heck, credit is even given to Moonlit World for the information. I'd suspect this falls under Fair Use. Nezu 23:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I highly doubt EvoSpace is the kind of guy who would accuse Wikipedia of copywrite infringement... hell, if people are so worried, I can contact him directly on Beast's Lair. So you don't really have to worry about that. However, regardless of anything, the articles do need to be redone and revamped.  Mirioki 00:13, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Copyright does not have to be expressed in order for it to apply, as by US law copyright goes into effect the moment something is created; I think you're confusing it with a registered copyright, which is the one you report to the government in order to be able to sue someone in court.  And while I agree that copyright does not cover ideas and information, it does cover how they are expressed - and the expression that the Moonlit World used is thus covered, and made complicitly so by the fact that they are credited.  Lastly, fair use covers taking a small portion of an article for review, not the whole body of work, which was the case here.  Therefore it makes it a legal issue, not just a moral one, though as Miroki says, it's likely a case where EvoSpace would probably clear it anyway.  I'm assuming that someone did it out of naviete, but that doesn't mean we should let the mistake pass - and the pages should be rewritten anyway in order to make it clearer (and wikified) for the average reader.--み使い Mitsukai 12:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: With all due respect, editors, most of you would know jack crack about the game incarnation of FSN if not for those who can read Japanese, like EvoSpace. As a token of gratitude, by which worms should be humbled at being given an opportunity to express (namely, through the proliferation of information on Wikipedia), we should at least NOT have complete transcriptions of "The Moonlit World" synopses on Wikipedia. Summarize, paraphrase, rewrite; do everything BUT "cut 'n past". -Terek 15:19, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sadly, I don't think this message will come across those who did the cut n paste action. I am, of course, talking about the unregistrated users... Mirioki 05:10, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  FSN pages and copyvio 

message: I fixed up the entry, adding an infobox, essential details and a more in-depth introduction, and also set the references to the title of the series as Fate/stay night. The official and correct title of the game, anime series and manga is Fate/stay night, not "Fate/Stay Night". Please see the official website for the anime series and TYPE-MOON's official homepage for verification. For example, the official anime homepage,  TYPE-MOON's Official Homepage, the Japanese Wikipedia entry for this series, and almost all authentic sources for this series spell the title as Fate/stay night. Therefore in view of accuracy, all of the direct references to Fate/stay night should be spelled as Fate/stay night. -- Ganryuu 05:23, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Roger.  Proceeding to move pages to correct name. Mirioki 05:36, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Title

message: Regardless of whether the spoiler warning is given or not, spoilers, such as Servant identities or secrets about the Masters, do not belong here. This might not usually be the case with a lot of Anime articles and such (so I've seen thus far), but I believe, that due to the fact that Fate/stay night is so heavily driven by hidden aspects of characters, and the fact that essentially each character has already been given a character page, F/SN is very much an exception. If they belong anywhere, they belong on the specific pages already given to the characters. I've taken the liberties to eliminate Saber's identity (it doesn't matter that the anime already has revealed it, besides, right now, this article seems to be catering to both the anime and the visual novel simontaniously), as well the massive spoiler on Ilya, and reposted it on her page. I'm not going to read indepth onto the specifics of labeling that exceprt, so if anyone feels like doing it, feel free to.
On this note, I will question the image of Shirou which is on the page right now. I'm not going to replace it, but I will question it's placement. I do know why it specifically could be a spoiler, though it is kinda subtile. But I will ask if any of you would consider changing it (to add, an actual face shot might be somewhat better).
Also, made a few minor edits in which the prior texts refered to Fate/stay night "the series". While it is indeed an ongoing anime series, remember that it was first a visual novel. Unless a body of text is refering to events that excusively occur in the anime, more general, broad terms should be used. A specific example is Kiritsugu Emiya, whom died prior to Fate/stay night, which sounds a bit more catering than "prior to the series".
I will commend the people who have worked on this though. Dispite the problems I've just stated, I think the article has overall, come a long way.
ShikiMSHTS 12:16, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid many people are taking the "spoiler" warning too literally.  Also, many of those people who place blatant spoilers on the main page are not registered users... I took out the "spoiler" warning to prevent any future misunderstandings. That might help. Besides, it's not like the information on the main page is very spoiler heavy anyway. I put up those character pages so people would stop complaining about not being able to put up spoilers... oh well.</br> On a second note, I'm the one who uploaded the image of Shirou.  The picture, I believe, is subtle enough to be void of possible spoilerifics. I doubt people will do more than just glance at the picture and move on (unless we find someone who thinks heavily on details).  However, I won't argue if the picture is replaced, I just thought it looked cool.  Too many people bag on Shirou nowadays, I figured I should try to compensate with one neat picture of him as representation...</br>Oh and, thanks for the praise! Yeah, the article definitely came a long way considering how Beast's Lair complained about Shirou's owned by Berserker pic. XD Mirioki 16:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

text: If you feel it should be changed, well then, change it. Or at least tell me which picture to change it to... Mirioki 02:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Time to test out this code...erm, sorry. Try one of the Shirou "talky" images, nothing from the event section of the FSN game. Terek 06:21, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All right... I'll try to get some screenshot of a Shirou "talky" image... if anyone has the game, please help provide a simple in game screenshot of Shirou just standing around and talking... I don't want to use the smaller images because all the other images are like... 600x800. Shirou's pic will become the oddball of the group if it isn't the same size, if you understand what I am trying to point out. Basically, it'll look ugly if it isn't in proportion to the other pictures. Honestly, Shirou's a bitch to find. Mirioki 06:31, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

text: All "talky" screens are tough; the game has a gallery that allows users to view all "event" pictures that the player has "unlocked" over the course of the three scenarios. As such, all "event" pictures are spoilers to some degree, and they are fairly common on imageboards and the like. Terek 07:29, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gnerally, most of the pics on the internet are Event pictures. The only non-spoiler pic of Shirou is the one where he's sitting behind Rin... but in that picture he is sadly not facing the viewers. So pretty much we need to find someone who is willing enough to play through the game till a convenient talky picture of Shirou pops up... and then screenshot that... yare yare... how annoying. Mirioki 07:35, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spoilers, regardless of warnings or not, belong on specific pages. 

message: The introductory summary uses words like "immensely" and "extremely popular" a lot (and it also repeats itself like crazy.) I'm not much of a Wikipedian, but to me, such wording seems very strong. As it is worded now I would expect anyone from the street, asked at random, to know about Fate/stay night, which is hardly the case. I am also not sure that things like "most popular [game] ever released" is even true - more popular than, say, Mario?
217.209.203.14 18:20, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I also feel that the superlatives are rather excessive.  The introduction is rather lengthy, too.  I'll try and make the intro a bit more NPOV, but really, it needs to be cut down by a third to a half. --Nihon? 21:32, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

text: The following is quoted from the above link from the Memento Fate/stay night Anime Series Archives, where the author, Garten, talks about Fate/stay night: "Not surprisingly, this series turns out to be one of the hottest property in Japan right now, especially in Akihabara. Almost every single shop in the area always features some kind of Fate/stay night merchandise on display. I managed to help myself to Fate Unlimited Guide, Fate Compilation Book and several shitajiki. I'm glad I'm not a figure collector because if I had been, I would have spent an insane amount of money." End-quote. - Ganryuu 22:05, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I have now re-furnished the introduction, turning it shorter and significantly removing the amount of superlatives and similar dialogue in use. In my opinion, the entry is much better now and this issue is resolved. - Ganryuu 23:29, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV in first paragraph? 

message: Ok. Really, I only noticed this in the scenerio section, but it seems there was use of past tense when refering to about anything in that section ("Fate/stay night was a visual novel..."). To me, this sounds inconsistant when reading the rest of the article, plus I'm almost entirely positive that past tense only has very specific uses. I changed these to present tense, though I'm somewhat limited on time, I'm not able to go through the entire article and see if there is anymore instance of past tense (though skimming it, it seems most of it is stated in present tense).
Although, if anyone is an english major and can prove me wrong (I am however, fairly confident in my writing ability), then feel free to revert the changes, provided you can give me a reason.
ShikiMSHTS 11:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  There was inappropriate use of the past tense.  --Nihon? 12:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Past tense not applicible? 

message: During the recent editing of this article, the old link to insani's English-translated version of the FSN trial-edition game (http://www.insani.org/fate.html) was removed.  Since I'm part of that project, it's probably not kosher for me to add a self-link in the article directly.  But I thought I should mention the omission, for the current group of page maintainers to objectively evaluate its relevance, just in case they weren't aware of our work. ChocoEd 19:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've now added details regarding insani's translation of the trial version of the Fate/stay night game, as well as providing external links for its project page, so now this should be resolved as well. - Ganryuu 21:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fan translation projects 

message: It has come to my attention that people accidentally access the "character" pages and get spoiled as to the identities of Servants; as such, I would like to request (or rather, be given permission by vote to) that the "Noble Phantasm" sections be moved under "Servant Status", and "Identity" be moved down above "Role". Such an order makes more sense categorically, because stats and NP are both "abilities" and identity is directly likned to what a servant seeks to accomplish in the Holy Grail War. -Terek 01:40, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to do that, go ahead. As for the idea that people "accidently" access the character pages and get things spoiled, I think that's bollocks. If you click on the link to the character page you know what you're getting into. There's no REASON for seperate character pages other than to expand upon and include information that WOULD be spoilers on the main article page. Let the reader beware in this case, it's impossible to cater to everyone, and having subpages is the best way to keep the spoilers down...I strongly believe that any further measures are just catering to stupidity. After all, it can't be helped if some people would rather do the equivalent of turning to the last page and finding out the killer, then whine about how it was "spoiled" for them. The principal applies here as well. Nezu Chiza 11:11, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

text: That makes sense. Go ahead and change it if you want... I've been half-assing the format for a while now, so it is a bit messy. Mirioki 16:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inversion of Categories 

message: I noticed that there were some trivia categories in the character articles earlier, so I grouped them into one cache on the main page. However, many of them are in dispute, so we should evaluate what is factual and prevent the [unregistered] users from causing vandalism. Please note if the following can be verified or not; we shouldn't add these bits unless they're true.
*TYPE-MOON writer Kinoko Nasu originally planned to feature Rin as the primary protagonist of Fate/stay night, with Saber as a male and Shirō as a girl named Shirōko. (The fact about Rin originally planned as a protagonist is true and fairly verifiable. I can probably get my friend to find verification. The rest... is true... still need to find verification... although any hardcore fan will confirm it) Mirioki 02:19, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't confirm anything, but the one about Archer's sword shouldn't be in the main page regardless of whether it's true or not. His confrontation with Shirou is a spoiler and should be kept in Archer's own article. Ephyon 02:08, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The part about Nasu original script for FSN is well... it's true. Nasu wrote FSN when he was in high school and originally wrote Shirou as Shirouko, Rin as the protagonist, and Saber as a male. When he changed Shirou as the main character an a male to make the story into an eroge, he basically made Saber into a girl... for obvious reasons. Verifiable? Heh, that'll be a bitch to find, but if you really want me to find it, sure... give me a few days to ask around the forums and I'll give you a hella verfiable source, words from Nasu himself probably. If you don't know this fact, then you obviously haven't been in the Nasu world long enough... (and it might just be speculation... unless my memory is served correct and EvoSpace translated something Nasu said... ugh it was so long ago...) Oh, but the wording is really misconstrued. He never "planned" I don't know about the last two though... Beast's Lair claims that the sword he picks up in the anime is the same one he uses against Shirou in UBW. Mirioki 02:13, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I cross-referenced the picture of Shirou impaling Archer, and I think the sword Archer uses is actually the one Shirou used against him. If that is the case, we can reword the "UBW" spoiler into something a bit more ambiguous. Terek 02:32, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Should I find out if the "Original FSN plot" thing is verifiable or not? Mirioki 02:41, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can, that would be great, but other aspects of this article require more immediate attention. Terek 19:07, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I added, "The music playing during Shirō and Saber's battle with Berserker in episode sixteen is a remix of the "Emiya" theme from the Fate/stay night game.", which is a true fact, but it's a spoiler if I point out the same theme played during Archer's battle with Berserker. So, let's just hope people are not able to "connect the dots". Terek 22:45, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Trivia

message: I haven’t checked who’s been changing this, but lets decide it once and for all: 
Anti-Personnel is the term used by Moonlit and usually the most common one. I don’t know where Anti-Person came from. Lets decide which to use from now on.
Anti-Castle is the literal form of Exaclibur’s type. Anti-Fortress is something I made up, because I think Fortress denotes the idea of an “enemy fortification” better than Castle, since not all Castles are impressive fortresses anyway. This one is simply rewording on my part, so change it as you will. Ephyon
:I personally prefer Anti-Personnel, but I'm from Beast's Lair, so my opinion is a bit biased. Also, I think Anti-Personnel is the most common form of that type, I don't think we should try to diverge from that. As for Anti-Castle vs. Anti-Fortress, I prefer the use of Anti-Castle. Of course, I have no reasons to back this up, other than the fact of it being the literal translation, I just like the sound of it... that and I think the readers are smart enough to denote the term "castle" as a sort of "enemy fortification"... Mirioki 14:53, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed all instances of "Anti-Personnel" to "Anti-Person" because that is the terminology used by Moonlit World, and we should respect EvoSpace's intellectual property and deviate from his conventions. I was not aware, though, that "Anti-Fortress" was only on Wikipedia; my own suggestion would be "Anti" followed by a single-syllable world, mostly because its easier to remember the term hierarchy. As such, I would propose "Anti-Unit", "Anti-Fort", and we maintain "Anti-World". Terek 19:06, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seriously? Wow, should really go visit that website again... If that's the case, I'll stick by Terek and go for "Anti-Fort", "Anti-Unit", and "Anti-World" as the terminologies. It seems easier to remember and it's short, concise, and to the point. Mirioki 19:18, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Terminology

message: OK, guys. Good news and...well, it's all good news. I've found a "talky" picture for Shirou, but Issei was in it so I photoshopped in a background from a simmilar shot, so I'll update the Shirou picture shortly. However, I would also like to propose some changes; rather than clog up the main page with images, we should combine the Saber-Shirou, Rin-Archer, and add in a Shinji-Rider picture. I'm working on Rider's biography as we speak, and I'll dedicate some time to working on Shinji later (man, the Master biographies need help). As of right now, I will take the initiative to do this, so if anyone disagrees, we can debate the change here and revert back to a previous page if necessary. Terek 03:08, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I really like your idea. Actually, I did that with Ilya and Archer, can't believe I didn't think of that before. Go ahead and revamp whatever you feel like needs done! Nearly all the non-servant pages (Shirou excluded) need help, so any initiative on those or any information on FSN is very much welcomed! Good job on what you've done so far. Mirioki 04:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What of the sizes for the thumbnails on the first page? I would think 250px would be good because the pictures look small, but I'm not sure if that's allowed on Wikipedia. Terek 17:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Done...for a while, anyway. Terek 23:51, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By "done" I meant I'm quitting this project. Terek 02:02, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Understood. Thank you for your help Terek! And as for that... I'm sort of done too... (look above) Mirioki 02:51, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Pardon my very on-off personality, but I was a bit, uh, angered at a certain person's sudden changes, but now that I've thought things through I'll finish what I started, provided I can find an adequate "center" tag. Terek 02:53, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Images & Characters

message: :What originally pissed me off yesterday was someone put in tables for every Servant page; that's not a bad thing, but doing such a poor job is, especially since we're shooting for uniformity here. Should we keep the tables, or ditch 'em? I would personally prefer to have them under the "Sevant Status" sections, but they've got to be edited to be at least centered or aligned on the left hand side of a page without causing such a messy layout. I'll work with the tables tomorrow, but I can't guarantee anything. Terek 09:05, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We can keep the tables themselves, but it just looks messy if it's under the picture... Especially with the uniformity issue. Also, the tables, for some reason, do not include the issue of multiple masters. So some pages STILL have the servant status section and a table... If you would like, I can change the formats myself. Mirioki 20:29, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tables

message: Arai did a translation of the name of Shirou's school; it's Homurabara Gakuen, not Fuyuki High, so we should change all instances of FH to the above. Terek 23:36, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fuyuki High

message: I've created a Fate/stay night template, as well as previously creating a TYPE-MOON template, adding them to all Fate/stay night and TYPE-MOON-related entries respectively. Documentation and usage instructions are given here for the Fate/stay night template and here for the TYPE-MOON template. If one wishes to suggest changes to the current format, then they are requested to first create a new discussion thread in the respective template discussion pages: for the Fate/stay night template by clicking here and for the TYPE-MOON template by clicking here. - Ganryuu 07:26, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Change the template dimensions from a box to a rectangle, so that the articles are not distorted a bit from the size. Further, instead of just one link for characters, make a section for Masters, Servants, and then characters. Finally, instead of using the FSN logo (which I should replace someday...), use a simple BG colour like the black template used in the "TYPE-MOON" box right below the FSN one on the main page. Terek 21:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Templates 

message: Yeah, uh, another major revision projected for either this Thursday, Friday, or Saturday, depending on how I'm feeling (hah). The subject of note, though, is that since we're including Dark Saber into the main Saber article, we should also do the same for Black Berserker...so, if anyone could find a picture of this Servant, such a move would be well appreciated. Terek 00:17, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Black Berserker

message: I think we should decide which one to use for the True Identity sections in the Servant pages already. Some are in past, some are in present, and Gilgamesh is in a weird mix of both. 
While present tense is very common in historical texts and the most common choice when retelling a lengthy series of events (A good example is the structure in the Scenario pages), I think past tense is more applicable in this context, since we are supposed to write informative summaries on who the mythological figures were, not retell every single step of their lives. That, and the fact that present looks kinda out of place since all the other sections in the same articles are usually in past. Ephyon 14:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, my goal was to lengthen the historical biography sections as much as possible; aside from Gilgamesh, Lancer, Heracles, and Caster, though, the majority of the article will be fairly small because the mythologies themselves are not long (Archer, Saber, Rider, Assassin). Present tense would be best, I think, because the vast majority of the articles will be focusing on the derivative abilities of characters, id est, the abilities of Noble Phantasms without context. I really, really need to expand the histories, though; from there, we can start cutting down, though I really can't do much until I [successfully] pass my finals this week. Terek 01:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Past or Present Tense?

message: According to WP:EL only one link to a major fansite link is permitted. Since, I'm not sure which of the existing links are major, I'm going to leave that to someone else to determine. Also, links to sites that contain fansubs or scanlations shouldn't be linked to either according to WP:EL. --TheFarix (Talk) 13:27, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup links