Talk:Serial Experiments Lain/Archive 1

message: am I insane or di this page use to be longer and go into detail about the themes?
I remeber a mention of Leary's 8 circuit model...
:The themes section is brand new. The plot section was a heap of POV'd OR (particularly the part with the 8th circuit). It was re-written from scratch. Leary was moved to the Allusions section. 
Why did you erase the to-do list?--SidiLemine 12:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Shouldn't the list of episode be merged in here, as per WP:TV#Episode_listing?--SidiLemine 13:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List of Episodes

message: It's probably a good idea to drop the opinionated statements about sub vs. dub debate, as this really isn't a good place to place a debate (This is Wikipedia after all, and probably should be fairly objective...) --Pipian 17:54 20 May 2003 (UTC)
:Dropping the sub-dub debate NOW. This isn't a message board, it's a wikipedia, besides, you know which is better.
:Will attempt to summarize, but lain's head is such a vast place... ;-) --Gamera2 05:05, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sub vs. Dub issues 

message: Well, the ASIN was removed. It was a matter of time I guess. But I was using amazon to help people intrested in the CD tell the bootleg from the geniuine article. Should someone post an image of the real case? Or what? --Gamera2 08:13, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  ASIN Removal 

message: I'll admit, the links are rather weighted in favor of one fansite.  Other sites should probably be linked, if more that have good auxiliary information can be found. --Eequor 15:44, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:   Fansites 

message: People not used to the series might take a little while to understand what that image is about, but I like it anyways. I added a little caption, so that should be good, too. –Mackeriv 17:59, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: This is somewhat of a nitpick, but I always thought the "Present day, Present time, hahahahaha" part of the episode intros was not supposed to imply the series was set in the present, but was a mocking of the concept of linear, uniform time. It's up to interpretation, but I've always thought Lain was set in the near future, since it displayed a level of technological penetration that wasn't present in Japan when Lain was first broadcast (1997). Recall the presence of an overarching traffic planning network in the series, which i don't be; also, the hand-held devices may be similar to ones that are widespread currently, but were not back in 1997. --Pyrop 04:54, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
:I admit that quote is not a very good indication of time. However, I see no point of claiming the story is set in the future. If there's no reliable indication of time, that should stay out of the article. – Kaonashi 12:03, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:   "Present day, Present time" 

message: ;While the article is talking about the LainOS, what language is it written in? Instinctively, I wanted to say simply Common Lisp, but I'm not so sure. When we see Lain programming in class, it is obviously a Lisp. Pausing and examining my copy, I took a good look at the code (since I'm an amateur Lisp programmer meself), and the code is meaningful- but it apparently is for a Symbolics Lisp machine (using the Genera OS) judging from some of the non-standard functions being used which is odd if, as the previous section asserts, the devices are based off the apple newton, and doubly odd since I would have thought that the advanced languages used in Japan were generally Prolog dialects (because of the Fifth Generation project). 
;My certainty was further shaken when I saw all of the Knights of the Lambda Calculus references and the article here on Wikipedia, which would indicate that it is not even Common Lisp, but Scheme (I do not know if Scheme was ever ported to Genera). Can anyone clear this up? --maru  (talk) contribs 01:43, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Languages 

message: I'd like to invite editors who know this series to add a summary to our list.  Video games and anime are the final section on the page.  Regards, Durova 21:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Not sure if appropriate thought.--SidiLemine 11:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Joan of Arc in art]] 

message: Hi! We, on Russian Wikipedia, currently having a discussion about how this anime's title should be translated. Some think "Serial Experiments Lain" should be considered "Serial Experiments: Lain", i.e. "Serial Experiments" and "Lain" have no connection between them. Another opinion is that the title states for "Lain's Serial Experiments" or just "Lain's Experiments", where both parts of the title are connected. Some also think "Serial Experiments Lain" is the same as "Experimental Serial (Show): Lain".Results of our conversation will also be used in discussion with our local anime publisher, who are going to name the localized version of "Lain" somehow like "Lain's Experiments", which, as for me, is incorrect translation.So, please, as the language's native speakers, explain to us as precisely as you can, which is right and which is wrong, and how the title "Serial Experiments Lain" should be (or - "can be", if there's uncertainty) understood. -- --85.140.1.78 15:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that this is a translation from a cryptic Japanese title of a cryptic Japanese anime, I suspect the ambiguity is intentional. I've always inclined towards the serial experiments being successive versions of Lain. --maru  (talk) contribs 00:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Refer to the section titled Publications and other media; it elucidates the meaning of the title. Compare: "Serial Experiments Lain", "Visual Experiments Lain", "Scenario Experiments Lain", etc. -- 24.225.247.157 02:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title translation 

message: In the Plot section of the article... I see a lot of things in there... but no references to back it up, and it looks like people are trying to "explain" the series. Although a lot of the information looks credible, it's all "personally, some people think" in disguise. Not even the creators of the script knew exactly what they were doing.
In fact, the fifth episode was written when Konata was running a high fever. As the show progressed in creation, original ideas for the explainations vanished. Serial Experiments: lain, was indeed, created for the curious and confused person who become infornographers to a chain of answers that don't exist. Interviews with the creators have come up with them basically concluding, "I don't know what you're talking about," or they will play with questions. 
I think this article needs a little revising with a separate section of the article for "possible conclusions", where fansites come in handy. Right now, I'm just going to add more and better references. Colonel Marksman 13:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Very well put. It should be mentioned that the whole series deals (rather radically) with the very definition of reality, and hoaxes at a large scale, my view is that the plot summary should only provide a basis, ie a definition of what the wired has become at the beginning of the series (and possibly protocol 7), and the "blur" resulting. Everything else should then be moved to the "characters" part (explaining the percieved actions & motivations of all protagonists) and the "themes" part (explaining everything else from Eiri's being alive to the use of technology to the great ball of fire on the school roof), and possibly a "theories" part as mentionned above, to keep the two previous ones "clean". If there is no objection by tomorrow I will go on and replace the current plut summary with a much more concise one and begin the two mentionned sections. --SidiLemine 13:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I've gone ahead and replaced it. It still lacks lots of references, but at least I think now it sticks to the basics. Please delete anything you feel as interpretation. I'll get a "themes" section started. On the menu: Loneliness, Communication & Power, God (Faith & Religion), (Consensual) Reality. Any ideas?--SidiLemine 15:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Explaination of the show

message: //Don't believe that article just above, the autor didn't get the series plot quite well, i will edit it when my finals are over.
Eiri is alive because the events were erased from the world, that is the power of Lain, and also, he did not create Lain, Lain always existed in the wired world which is of course part of the real world, giving lain the powers of the omniprescence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.154.201.167 (talk • contribs) .
:This was on the article itself, so I moved it here. -- Ned Scott 05:03, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  anon note about "getting the plot" 

message: Hey, didn' t someone noticed any similarities between Lain and the concept of Pure Ego of Johann Gottlieb Fichte? Indeed, in my never enough humble opinion I' m quite sure it' s almost the same metaphysic concept of the Fichte' s idealism one. What do you think about? (strange I' m the first one to think about this).
*Perhaps because this discussion is about the article itself, not the topic. We can speculate a great deal of stuff about Lain, but what the truth is, is up to the viewers. It's common in the Japanese culture to have endings this way, and I'm sure they like watching Americans' reaction to their series. Colonel Marksman 04:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm practically ignorant of the Pure Ego subject, but if you think Lain is a good illustration of it, you could mention it on the Pure Ego article. However, I think Lain could be way too many things to list thme all, not to mention the OR problem that ensues.--SidiLemine 16:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Lain the Pure Ego? 

message: CAN SOMEBODY PLEASE ERASE AND REWRITE THE PLOT SUMMARY AT THE BEGINNING OF THE PAGE?  I realize that whoever wrote it put a lot of effort into this summary, but I feel that it is still grossly inappropriate.  Lain is a masterpiece of anime because it makes the viewer think about what is really going on in each scene.  There are countless complex storylines and events with multiple potential interpretations.  But instead of leaving the story open ended, as I'm pretty sure that the series producers and writers intended it, somebody has summarized the plot in a way that leaves nothing to the imagination - instead, it is just one viewer's interpretation of the plot.  Worst of all, this could totally ruin it for somebody who has never seen the anime.  Even though it is allegedly protected by spoiler warnings, I still strongly feel that the entire summary should be replaced with one much more open-ended.  If nobody else feels like re-writing one, I suggest using this (spoiler-free) promotional summary from the website of the domestic distributor of the series on DVD:
<I>We're all connected…  There is the world around us, a world of people, tactile sensation, and culture.  There is the wired world, inside the computer, of images, personalities, virtual experiences, and a culture all of its own. The day after a classmate commits suicide, Lain, a shy thirteen year-old girl, discovers how closely the two worlds are linked when she receives an e-mail from the dead girl: "I just abandoned my body.  I still live here...” Has the line between the real world and the wired world begun to blur?  Before long, Lain is pulled into the world of the Wired, where she gradually learns that nothing is what it seems to be... not even Lain herself.</I>
If copyright issues make it impossible to reproduce this, I understand.  But please, this problem must be corrected.  And soon. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.86.248.149 (talk • contribs) .
:If you want to re-write it, then re-write it.  I don't see anything really wrong with the way it's written now. This is an article for the anime, not an advertisement for it.  We're not trying to "sell" it to anyone or promote it. -- Ned Scott 04:58, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. This is an encyclopedic reference article, not a (spoiler-free) DVD blurb. For someone who has no wish to watch SE:l, and needs a quick run down about the plot... That (spoiler-free) DVD ad copy isn't going to do them much good. Pyrogen 06:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Very little wrong with the introduction, I am more ill at ease with the "plot summary" part. Way too much questionable interpretation out there. --SidiLemine 13:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Edited a bit here and there. Any better?--SidiLemine 13:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: PLOT SUMMARY RE-WRITE

message: SE:L seems to have very rare usage. None of the first 50 google hits on SE:L gives the subject, even with excluding all frequent associated terms. I've replaced it all for SE Lain, which seems more accepted. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 02:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perfectly right. In the meantime I stumbled upon a guideline somewhere that advised to avoid abbreviations and prefer simplifications (still in italic), so I replaced SE L by Lain.--SidiLemine 10:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  SE:L? 

message: I fail to see any direct allusions to Symbolics, BeOS, Perl, Joan of Arc, Illuminati, Fractals, and Douglas Engelbart in the anime, so I deleted them. Mind you, these are all great subjects and I'd love to expand on the place they occuppy in Lain, but at the moment I can't see anything. Please advise if insight available.--SidiLemine 10:32, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Englebart is mentioned in the same areas dealing with Vannevar Bush, and Symbolics comes in via the Lisp code and machines Lain uses. --maru   (talk)  contribs 14:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK for Englebart, althought I'll have to re-watch to know if he is actually named in a sentence or if his name just pops up during the MJ12 bit. But Symbolics doesn't pass the test. I mean, it's enough to have an entry on LISP, and the machines can be just from anything. --SidiLemine 16:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not necessary to have a whole bullet point on Symbolics, I agree, but it costs little to nothing to append an "and Symbolics" to the bullet point on Lisp. --maru   (talk)  contribs 18:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was going to say "well, why not?"; but then again, why? I can understand that it would make Symbolics enthusiasts happy, but is there even a direct hint at it (that is not Lisp) in Lain? If not, I find it a bit hard. We might end up putting in the guy that developped Lisp, and the list of every single paper John C Lilly wrote.--SidiLemine 10:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A direct hint besides the source code Lain edits in class and the fact that she had to've been using a Symbolics OS... no, off-hand I can't actually remember anything. Only watched the series once, I'm afraid. --maru   (talk)  contribs 16:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I can't remember any time either. Couldn't find a clue around the web, so I'll leave it at that for now. I'll just begin to format the allusions (group all the mad scientists under a "influences of the wired" dot, etc...)--SidiLemine 10:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Does anyone know if "As We May Think" is cited in the anime? It seems possible, but I can only remember them talking about Memex at that moment.--SidiLemine 11:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I couldn't find direct reference to Neural networks or simulated reality, so I deleted them. Same with Alice in Wonderland. Also, As there is a Printf (oh, I deleted that also), one can't say Lisp has any special role to play in the series, no more than C. For what we know, it might be a mutant hybrid of the two.--SidiLemine 18:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I need help with the allusions. Most of what's left by now is crystal-clear, so I almost find it hard to say it's OR. However, if they stay unsourced as they are, this article will never acheive GA status, and that's something I'd like to see ;)... So the question is: does anyone have any citation concerning the allusions? Or any "trick" that may allow us to keep them unsourced? Any help very appreciated.--SidiLemine 15:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Allusions

message: :::I need help with the allusions. Most of what's left by now is crystal-clear, so I almost find it hard to say it's OR. However, if they stay unsourced as they are, this article will never acheive GA status, and that's something I'd like to see ;)... So the question is: does anyone have any citation concerning the allusions? Or any "trick" that may allow us to keep them unsourced? Any help very appreciated.--SidiLemine 15:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Help (Please)!!

message: This article definitely needs a section on the PSX game. Does anyone have any material about this?--SidiLemine 16:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I've already read a little bit about it, but always from fansites (hard to make that a good reference.) And I'm not sure if watching the footage wouldn't be original research. I'm afraid I look a bit paranoid, but right now the anime project has only 4 good articles, and I don't think that's right. I think if there was more of it, it'd be easier to have a model to make other good anime articles, an so on. But anyway, once again, bravo. Neat piece of data.--SidiLemine 13:19, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Playstation Game

message: Lain's alter ego(s) should have their own section on the "Characters" list.
:Should they? I never saw that done.... It could be worth a shot if we're able to know which is which, and to define them clearly.... Any suggestions?--SidiLemine 09:10, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I think I remember there was "normal' Lain, "Evil" (or whatever) Lain of the Wired, and "Childish" Lain; but are they actually different characters, and not different personnalities/emanations of "the" Lain? To me, Lain is an artifact that "emits" thoughts in boh worlds, sometimes in the form of ghosts, sometimes in the form of full-flesh bodies (eg Lain Iwakura). I'm not saying that's THE interpretation of the series, but to create different character entries would seem borderline OR to me. that being said, I don't mind if there's a consensus or sources to back it. 
I found this on Google, it has a brief description of the different Lains and pictures explaining them. Check hereKaldeaOrchard 06:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Wow! This is great material! (I'm such a lousy googler...) But where did they get that from? Is this in the Omnipresence book? It looks a bit like fanart (excellent, but still) to me... Plus I'm not sure about the part with the Knights creating the "Lain in the Wired".... But the image would still be of great use.--SidiLemine 10:08, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split Personalities 

message: I'm asking for a peer review on this article. Please help as you can.--SidiLemine 12:24, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Peer Review

message: I removed this from Eiri Masami's section in "characters". Can someone please advise if it is sourceable? 
HE claims to have created Lain's ego from the legend of all female heroes in the wired.
--SidiLemine 13:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lain modeled from female heroes?

message: A huge gigantic thank you to whoever wrote this article. The plot summary is alot better than it used to be. dposse 19:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  thank you! 

message: In the section Apple computers in Serial Experiments Lain, the article states:
:"Close this world, Open the nExt" is the slogan for the Serial Experiments Lain Playstation video game.
If my memory serves, the phrase is not specific to video game version.  It is used in the background of sponsor credits in the anime series.  (I can't confirm myself since I don't have DVD/Video of the anime.)   --Fukumoto 17:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Me neither T_T. But I saw it on the game, so I figured it must have been from there mostly. Any evidence of the opposite welcome.--SidiLemine 17:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This was used as a tagline on the Madman dvd cover, have not noticed it inside the show Swales 04:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Close this world, Open the nExt 

message: I just visited this article for the first time in a while... I fixed a few minor spelling errors and edited the note about schizophrenia, since it didn't seem to flow well.  Also, someone added this note to the article under Themes:
"Note: Schizophrenia and Dissociative Identity Disorder/Multiple Personality Disorder are two completely different things.  Might want to fix that, yeah?"
Comments like these belong in the Talk Page, not the article, so... I moved it to the Talk Page and removed it from the article.  Whoever posted this has a point, though.  Lain definitely deals with schizophrenia, but it also deals with dissociative identity disorder, and the two are distinctly separate.  We should develop that... maybe a specific section in themes about mental illness?  A few citations for that topic might be nice as well...
TheInvisMan 21:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, even more if you consider that the game was centered around her therapy sessions... Unfortunately (almost) nobody ever played it. I'll remove the schizophrenia part, as it is unsourced as it is: 
"The intentional manner in which reality is distorted throughout the series could be seen as a parallel to schizophrenia." True, but POV and OR. --SidiLemine 09:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schizophrenia and dissociative identity disorder. 

message: In several sections, e.g., the Influences-Writing-Research, the footnotes are placed in the middle of sentences, immediately after the clauses they back up.  I understand that this runs counter to the style guidelines, which specify that footnotes should come at the end of a sentence or at the end of a paragraph.  Should the footnotes be moved? Patiwat 06:18, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, wikipedia:footnotes says "Place a ref tag at the end of the term, phrase, sentence, or paragraph to which the note refers". So I guess it's OK. Thanks for tagging the fans thing as OR.--SidiLemine 10:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for clarifying that.  Despite what wikipedia:footnotes says, lots of articles put the footnotes at the end of the paragraph or at the end of the sentence.  GOod to see what the policy says.  Patiwat 21:59, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And that's what I used to do before the policy was pointed out to me while I was working on theis article. That's why you can see the same paragraph sourced three or four times with the same ref. Seemed totally awkward at first, but it makes sense, unless your whole paragraph is one big citation.--SidiLemine 16:13, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect placement of Footnotes? 

message: * Support: The The Wired article is not notable enough to warrant a separate page and should be merged into this one.  The trivia section should also be removed.  David Bailey (talk) 17:18, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: The article claims that multiple English reviews have called Serial Experiments Lain weird "due mostly to its almost total absence of sexual and violent content".  A glance at the references shows no sign of this being the reason for the series being called weird.  My impression is that the themes and animation are what is being called weird.  The only reference to sexual and violent content i could find in the reviews was a mention of age appropriateness.  --Mattlafy (talk) 08:10, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reception: Weird, Sex and Violence