Talk:Audrey Munson

message: The article currently says no prints of films starring Audrey Munson survive, but this link http://www.silentera.com/PSFL/data/P/Purity1916.html claims there is a print of Purity 1916, at the Centre Nation de la Cinematographie. -- Solipsist 11:01, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I feel a bit lost about why this particular bit of information has shown up on the Audrey Munson talk page? This is also a good example of why it's good to be a registered user, or if you are one, why it's a plus to sign your writings.  The Bronx Building is listed on the Charles Keck page but not on Weiman's, which was an early effort by me and not really finished.  I am sort of working on an article about Edward Sanford, but it's not much beyond the thinking stage right now.  Which brings us back to Audrey Munson ?  Ar you suggesting that she was the madel for some of the work on the Bronx Courthouse ??  Carptrash 16:40, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Hello Barry, I am familiar with your work regarding AM,  I believe that we corresponded while I was writing this article.  If you register or sign in or whatever with wikipedia then we can correspond easier on each other's talk pages.  My inderstanding is that the Bronx building was built in 1934, by which time Audry was already institutionalized, and in any case had been out of the business for quite a while.  However it as always a questionable tactic to argue with New Yorkers about New York.  Carptrash 14:55, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, that certainly could be AM, sitting there on that courthouse.  However part of the reason that i ended up witht the wrong courthouse is that you mentioned Keck and Weinman and Sanford and a couple of others, and they all worked on the 1933 building.  So, who did the Munson on the 1914 building?  I can find no mention of that anywhere.  72.16.51.242 14:54, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: PS the sculptor of the Justice statue on the BCC was Jules Edouard Roiné.  What makes you feel that AM was the model?  Carptrash 19:09, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Surviving prints of Munson films

message: I have some photos I took of the star gril statue which she posed for. I would be glad to donate them if peopel wanted them on the page:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/0x0000org/2476210173/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/0x0000org/2476200031/  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiwikimoore (talk • contribs) 20:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you! I have uploaded the photos to Commons as :Image:Star Maiden Statue 1.jpg and :Image:Star Maiden Statue 2.jpg. Kelly hi! 16:26, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Since we have a photo of an original Star Maiden from the 1915 catalog, we really don't need the photo of the "Star Girl" from the atrium of the Citibank Center. It is not an original "Star Maiden", it is a bronze replica made in the 1980's (as the bronze tablet affixed to the statue base attests). The only known original (if in fact it is original) is the Star Maiden in the California Room of the Oakland Museum. --Paul (talk) 22:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos of statue 

message: Barry Popik ("Big Apple" etymologist and NYC historian) here. I rediscovered Audrey Munson 25 years ago. I spent years of my life sending Audrey Munson information all over New York City, to several museums and historians and politicians, without a single positive response. It led to this article that started it all in 1996:
  
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/04/14/nyregion/neighborhood-report-new-york-up-close-rescuing-heroine-clutches-obscurity.html
  
That led to the 1999 book, which led to this Wikipedia page, which led to the 2016 biography and now possibly much more (including a movie).
   
Wikipidia's JesseRafe got into an argument with me on another matter, and as a result, he's removed any link to me in any part of Wikipedia. I do not write for Wikipedia because of people like him, but please, it's important to put back the link so that people know how Audrey Munson was rediscovered. I have also advocated for an Audrey Munson Google doodle and an Audrey Munson postage stamp. If those things happen, you will mention them here, but not that I helped to do them. I have never made a single dime on this in these 25 years, but erasing my work is wrong. 
Barry (talk) 19:41, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Ummmmm No one erased your work. No one accused you of profiting off her. It seems clear that linking to your blog is more about you than about AM. Your work has been built upon and superseded by well-edited sources. Congratulations. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 20:13, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

text: Second thought: think carefully about using the word "vandalism" as you did when saving your comment. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 20:19, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  I rediscovered Audrey Munson 25 years ago that helped create this page; my link has been removed by a spiteful Wiki editor 

message: This page has no information on precisely what mental illness Audrey Munson had.  Does anyone out there have information on her illness?  What condition would require her to never leave the asylum, even after 65 years?Inkan1969 (talk) 16:34, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Mental Illness

message: Note for future use, BBC interview ‘America's first supermodel’. JDAWiseman (talk) 07:48, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I added this under "External links". No information of note, but excellent images. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 16:19, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: BBC interview

message: Hi, folks. I'm pinging those of you who have put some work into this article. It seems to me that the Sculpture section would work far better as a table, bringing the images and text (and anecdotes) all together. I started a section as an example. Before I go any further, I'd like feedback on whether you like (or hate) this approach. (I have a bad habit of taking over articles.) It can all be reverted if you don't like it.Best, == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 20:36, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: No opposition from this quarter - I think it would be fine. --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 21:05, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Table is fine and looks good, but please leave maybe three or four large image examples in the text, as they are now, in addition to their use in the table. Thanks. Don't want to hide all these beautiful sculptures in tiny images. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:22, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Please keep going — the table is a great solution. I agree about featuring a few of the best images as larger examples, as well. — WFinch (talk) 00:05, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree also. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 00:24, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good on a quick pass-by.  I'll take a closer look-see later. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:47, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to table this suggestion.Carptrash (talk) 16:03, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Better as a table?

message: Munson was born June 8, 1891, so it seems unlikely that she posed for:
*Alma Mater (1903), Columbia University, by Daniel Chester French - (age 10 when it was commissioned; age 12 when it was installed)
*Day and Night (1906), Pennsylvania Station, by Adolph Alexander Weinman - (age 15 when it was installed)
*Madame Butterfly (1903), proscenium figure, New Amsterdam Theatre, by Albert G. Wenzel - (age 12 when the theatre opened)
According to James Bone, Isidor Konti's Three Graces (1907), was the first time Munson posed nude for an artist, (at age 16), so any claims prior than that should be considered suspect. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 16:40, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Suspect claims

message: Here's an inventory of the architectural sculpture on the Palace of Fine Arts, as it relates to Munson.  
In the Rotunda, it looks like sources attribute the eight robed angels atop the columns inside the dome, by Adams, to her posing.  Already on the list.  They're clones.  
Outside there are eight full-length attic figures, between piers above the double columns, 23 feet tall, four male and four female.  Those are by Ellerhusen.  Any connection to Munson?  Unknown.  I'm not convinced by what I've seen.  
Alternating between those figures are a series of eight bas-relief panels, deep relief, archaic-looking.  Those are actually three unique panels repeated in those eight spaces, called "Struggle for the Beautiful", "Power of the Arts", "Triumph of the Arts".  Those are credited to Zimm.  In one of them, a central female figure is a good candidate to be identified with the model we're looking for.   Maybe goes on the list.  
Lastly, I think, on the Rotunda, each of the Corinthian capitals on the eight double columns features three very conspicuous sprites facing outward on their three sides, which makes (8 x 2 x 3) = 48 sprites, unattributed as yet to any sculptor.  Also might be her.  
On the two peristyles, the main architectural sculpture is Ellerhusen's set of inward-looking maidens.  There are a lot of them, on top of the columned pylons, the figures all placed on the corners of big square boxes supposedly meant as flower boxes.  It's conspicuous and unusual imagery.  No explanation of these 72 clone wallflowers quite makes sense to me, other than this was Maybeck's whim or misfire, in a project he envisioned as an overgrown ruin, hardcore archaic-emo picturesque.  They are 14 feet tall.  I agree with you, that to assign 3 or 4 different names to these clones, "Meditation", "Introspection" doesn't make any sense either.  I don't know if they have faces, or if that is Miss Munson's rear end.  
That brings us to the ground-level flower boxes, which are in the plaza where the Rotunda and the two arcades come closest to touching.  The outside of these four rounded flower boxes are where the barefoot garland figures are, again by Ellerhusen.  Life size or a little bigger.  That's a good call on the A-B-C-B-A pattern.  By my count, four flower boxes times at least five figures per box, so at least 20 of these.  Something about their postures suggest Munson to me, but I do not know.
Two or three pieces by Stackpole, Lentelli and another Zimm, connected with the "altar", immediately at the water's edge, disappeared with the altar even before the whole structure was torn down circa 1963, to be completely rebuilt.  Those pieces are gone.  Some time around 1969 Spero Anargyros replaced the 8 23-foot male and female figures around the Rotunda, and 40 of the 72 Maiden Introverts, with cast stone.  --Lockley (talk) 00:47, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Good work. Very thorough. What do you recommend about proceeding? == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 01:53, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , well, a couple of judgment calls in there.  In my opinion (1) the Adams angels are correct as they are, (2) I would propose adding that one Bruno Louis Zimm panel, based on her frequent representation at PPIE 1915 & the physical similarity, (3) as to the "drooping" figures versus the garland figures, in this source the works "Contemplation, Wonderment and Meditation" are listed separately from the "Frieze of Garland Bearers".  I don't know whether Munson was depicted in any drooping / weeping activities, or handling garlands.  So I am not totally confident that "C W & M" or the garland bearers actually belong on the list.  I would only suggest the current "C W & M" title doesn't match the current "garlands" photo.  That's all I got!  --Lockley (talk) 03:01, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with you on all points. Especially your take on the separate listings for "Contemplation, Wonderment and Meditation" and the garland figures. I think adding a different color of shading for "possibly modeled by Munson" would be useful. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 12:26, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I was wrong about the figures between the panels on the attic of the Palace of Fine Arts. At least 2 of them appear to be female. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 13:02, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Thanks. There was one guidebook that prescribed sitting in one of the Court of the Four Seasons's screened niches for "sensory overload." == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 21:04, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for the Greenhut correction. The tomb door was listed in a book about Art in California, but I guess it was just exhibited there. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 21:04, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  ...most welcome.  On that one, even SIRIS didn't know, so if I can rustle up some public spirit I'll ping them on that correction.  As our gruff adjutant general Carptrash taught me how to do. --Lockley (talk) 22:26, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Contemplation is the formal name of the drooping maidens, according to this source. I guess Wonderment and Meditation alternate on the attic of the Rotunda. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 18:26, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you for nailing that Contemplation thing down.  Nowhere did I see it described as the Egyptian princess Xanax, which is what I was hoping for.  As long as it's one name for all those figures that are exactly alike, y'know?  That's only playing fair.  --Lockley (talk) 20:11, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I heard that you might be the guy who can access old newspapers?  I am looking for "The Washington Times (Washington, District of Columbia) · 9 Jan 1921, Sun · Page 28  29" - which is an AM story. Carptrash (talk) 20:21, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, life is not fair, but sometimes we can make it more fair, which is why you should check your email inbox for the article you seek.  --Lockley (talk) 21:04, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Palace of Fine Arts 

message: According to something I just read, "Eve" at the PPIE is the female figure at the base (right side facing it) of the "Genius of Creation" group.  The guy, presumably is Adam. Carptrash (talk) 20:12, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: That makes sense. I went thru the catalogue of all the sculpture exhibited at the Palace of Fine Arts, and there was no Eve by French. There also was no Conception, Wonderment or Contemplation by anyone, which probably confirms that they were architectural sculpture. When did French model his reclining Eve? == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 00:27, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eve 

message: the "Memory" at the Marshall Field grave site (which I have visited) is a different work than the one we have listed and photographed. I have not yet checked the dates, so it could be another Munson, but it is not THIS Munson.  So I removed:
A 1910 bronze cast marks Marshall Field's grave in Graceland Cemetery, Chicago, Illinois. Carptrash (talk) 15:40, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right. SIRIS doesn't have photos of them, but the descriptions don't match. Thanks for catching this. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 15:52, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:   Anything linking Munson to this DCF version of Memory? SIRIS says 1910. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 17:00, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Not yet. But it is on my list of things to look for.  A long list. Carptrash (talk) 17:27, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  If my Memory serves me well 

message: I recently received an emailing of what at first I thought was the “New Expanded” version of Tolstoy’s “War & Peace” but instead turned out to be Audrey Munson’s newspaper publishings.  I am seriously considering adding “writer” or “Newspaper columnist” to Audrey’s lede because she wrote quite a lot.  But more than that, I am trying to track down all the hints and innuendoes and wink winks to be found, checking them against not only the published works on Munson, which are, I believe, based largely on these writings, but also on whatever other references I can dig up.  So, included is a picture of AB posing for Bitter “for his famous statue ‘Peace’ ”. I believe that this is where the misconception that she posed for Bitter’s “Peace” on the Appellate Court building comes from.  However, ignoring for the moment that that work was done when she was 7 years old, the pose she is holding and Bitter is working on is totally different the the Courthouse “Peace.’  So what is that work?  I’ve gone through both biographies of Bitter and not visually located it.  She does do a “Peace” for The Maine Memorial, but that is by Piccirilli and is also a very different pose.  it is possible that this is one of those perishable Exposition works but the ones that Bitter did were before she was modeling and by the PPIE extravaganza Bitter had already been tragically killed.  Then there is her Isabelle Springer story about a rich high society beauty who modeled “in the altogether” and it led to opium addiction, blackmail, murder, divorce, prostitution and a pauper’s grave. A touching morality tale but NOT the way that it is presented in “Murder at the Brown Palace”, which I have somewhere around here.  So what to do?  Soldier on, perhaps, and stop complaining?  No, that would be too simple. Carptrash (talk) 16:44, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Now AM is writing about co-modeling a work, "Rain," for PPIE with Mabel Normand, where the body is Normand, but the face is hers.  And we have the work listed, only by Albert Jaegers and Munson says that it was by "Piccirilli."  Without saying which one.  Neither Piccirilli is listed as having a "Rain" at PPIE so . . .......attribute that story to Jaegers? Carptrash (talk) 19:39, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi  -- about that illustration of Peace, whoever compiled all those accompanying photographs and wrote the captions must have had extra laudanum for breakfast that morning.  Racy yes.  Fact-based no.  For the record, that came from publication on January 30 1921.  Odds are that photograph comes from PPIE.  Also that bas-relief in the background, is that Adam and Eve?  But I agree, this is not the Appellate Court Peace.  About her version of Isabelle Springer not matching up to other versions of reality, another example, in chapter 17 published on May 1 she describes one of these poor tragic fallen models named Louise who ended up scrubbing floors in the Parisian academy, her perfect feet the only remnant of her beauty, and like that.  That's an interesting factual collision with the Louise Janin in wikipedia, also in Paris, same years, also in the art scene, but whose arc doesn't fit that morality play.  I'm thinking the best thing we can squeeze out of these 20 articles is glimpses of working processes, what sculptors wanted from models, their relative reputations.  (Do you think it's MacMonnies that has such a legendary temper?)  About Rain and Mabel Normand, give me a little while on that one --Lockley (talk) 23:06, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: hmm that story about Rain doesn't hold any water.  Not as told in the text, in which Piccirilli conceives Rain for the PPIE in 1915 and uses poor Mabel Normand, commuting from Staten Island.  Normand did model circa 1909-10 for illustrators Flagg & Gibson, maybe for Piccirilli, but she was in California by late 1912 and earning a lot more than $0.50/hour.   Once again, the captions are just nutty.  We have the Jaegers correct where it is on the list.  --Lockley (talk) 00:52, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a good image of what we're talking about.  It'll be fun to figure out what this mysterious thing is, although it might not have much to do with Audrey Munson.  Published 2/6/1921.  The idea the text presents, that Normand & Munson both posed for Piccirilli for this object called "Rain" in 1914/1915 is probably not true.  But some of those things could be true.  Maybe this is earlier?  I'll be interested to know what you all make of that pointing, cowled figure there at the top.  --Lockley (talk) 03:05, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:   Lombardo's biography lists a 1914 Piccirilli work titled Rainbow. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 03:52, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Lombardo describes "Rainbow" as being a study for "Flower of the Alps" - which does NOT look like what Munson dedcribes. There is more bad news but (what a tease) I've had too much to drink (Wednesday is my brewery night) to get into it now.  Meanwhile I make no sense out of what the whole work is that has the "rain" figure.  If it is A Piccirilli and if it was ever realized it should be in Lombardo Carptrash (talk) 04:48, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Superb eye, Mr. Lockley! I reversed and cropped the image, uploaded it, and added it to the table. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 11:42, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Damn fine work! Carptrash (talk) 14:33, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peace, and other unpeaceful things 

message: I purposely haven't looked at the page or this talk page in a long time, and I won't look at them or read them now. When I did come by to pop in a category or a small edit, I didn't look at the page. But I've been following the edit summaries on my watch list, and this seems to me to be turning out a potential masterpiece, maybe feature worthy at some point soon. Her story deserves no less (as does that of Camille Claudel, another major art-related figure who found herself impounded like a dog in a mental institution for the rest of her long life). Please let me know when you've finished to a point of satisfaction and am winding this stage down, so I can enjoy the full presentation. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:45, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Part of the problem that I am having, and that needs to be kept in mind, is that the sources we have do not agree with each other, or, worse, do agree on stuff that I (we?) feel to be wrong. And getting this stuff straightened out is impossible without just writing another reference to use that gets it right.  But we are having, if not fun, at least as sense of worth involved in getting it right.  Carptrash (talk) 20:33, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool, thanks. I knew about some of the source confusion, which sounds interesting. I'll break my Wikipedian-selfish decision to await the show and have a look at everything later. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:42, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think we're winding down (at least on the table).  has analyzed dozens of original sources and footnoted the credible ones, and  has shared his enormous trove of Munson minutiae. My favorite part is being able to click thru the images and see all the sculptures Munson inspired. Let's hope we identify more works/images. Thanks for your contributions/support. It has been fun. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 18:29, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the alert . I've bought a program and toured the exhibit. You three have done Munson's story and legacy proud, and have given readers a detailed and beautiful page. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:14, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Awaiting the grand opening

message: ===4 Continents===
The "4 Continents" by French at Cass Gilbert's Customs House, now a museum.  They are done too early to be Munson, but show up in both "American Venus" and "Queen of the Artists' Studios." So should we add them and then debunk then or just let sleeping dogs lie.  Part of the reason for discussing them has to do with "Over Munsification", the tendency to attribute everything to her.  Ideas? Carptrash (talk) 15:10, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: If they appear in "Queen of the Artists' Studios," I think we should address them. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 15:31, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay.  American Venus is (opinion) a more reputable source since I believe that the "Queen" book just lifted stuff from it.  But in any case those groups are in both books.  Meanwhile  and BHG, how many newspapers was Munson's column, or whatever, pages actually, printed in?  As I look around it seems to be quite a few.  I think (unless we already have done so) this needsd to be addressed too. Whatever we might think about the veracity of the information they are an important part of her legacy.  I'm just going to start a list and see where it goes. Carptrash (talk) 16:13, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I misunderstood. I presumed "Queen of the Artists' Studios" was the name of Munson's newspaper column.
===Reverence===
  Do we know anything about Ralph Stackpole's Reverence, the nude kneeling figure atop the Altar of the Fine Arts? == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 16:48, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

text: I know (or think I know) that Stackpole is a California artist so (opinion) anything he did would have been done in CA and not NY so Munson is not likely to have been the model. Carptrash (talk) 17:29, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Interesting how Stirling Calder planned things. For prior expositions, the sculpture had been cast full-sized in staff in NYC and shipped to Chicago/Buffalo/St. Louis by rail. This was costly and works often suffered breakage. For San Francisco, Calder asked sculptors to ship their clay models, and his team scaled them up onsite. Cheaper and less breakage. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 18:51, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: In reading Calder's daughter's book, "Three Alexander Calders" I discovered that Stackpole was a student of Calders and only moved to California to work on Expo stuff, and just stayed.  So Munson could have modeled for him.   I get the impression from the book that Calder was in SF in the year or so leading up to the Expo, so where was he using Munson?  Was she in California too? I doubt it since most of the other sculptors were NYers and I don't see French or Piccirilli working out there.  But Calder?  It is a puzzlement. Carptrash (talk) 19:42, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's the best thing on Reverence.  FDR saw it in 1915, always remembered it, wanted it, thought it was feminine.  Years later as president he contacted Stackpole and asked after it.  Stackpole couldn't locate it but offered to make a copy for Hyde Park, FDR eagerly accepted.  When it arrived it was NOT the sleek sexy thing FDR remembered.  He ordered it hidden at the edge of his property, where it was accidentally dug up in 1987, then concealed all over again within a new ring of trees according to FDR's wishes.  I've seen no good 1915-era pics of this.  So far.  --Lockley (talk) 20:33, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:   Here's one. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 20:56, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I just discovered the same one.  Well done. Carptrash (talk) 21:34, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

text: PS, I just found another backwards print of a picture in Ch 9, where it is just her legs.  See edit about to happen. Carptrash (talk) 21:46, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Why are you not happy with the Aitken fountain?  Company Carptrash (talk) 02:51, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's not that I'm unhappy with it, and if there's documentation, of course it stays. But is there a credible source that lists it? == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 03:14, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we have reached the point of, there is no credible source for anything, but I shall check what I have and see what I see. Carptrash (talk) 03:38, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: So this is AB in SF at PPIE. "....Audrey met Robert Aitken's four allegorical figures of her as the elements, Earth, Water, Air and Fire. (I think she is only two of them) I see myself in the main figures as well as in the groups at the base."  I don't think those have a figurative base, not with groups, I think she is referring to the "Fountain of the Earth."  Okay, not overwhelming.  But a start. Carptrash (talk) 05:02, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for the stuff you emailed. Yes, the sources are imprecise and confusing, but your conclusions make sense. I'll keep looking at it (which is not unpleasant). == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 13:28, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: But I would not be adverse to putting this work in the grey area. Carptrash (talk) 15:21, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

text: That's great. Muson wrote something about having posed for a Nymph, installed at Kykuit "by the pool." But I don't remember a sculptor. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 21:40, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: St Gaudens is supposed to have wept when his talented assistant Mary Lawrence married Tonetti, saying, "Now she will just have babies and help her husband with his mediocre work."  Or something similar.  Which turned out to be pretty much accurate. I started the Lawrence article (excuse me while I pat my self on the back) but could never really muster the determination to do a Tonetti one.  Maybe it should happen? Carptrash (talk) 22:54, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:   Maybe a Tonetti article (eventually), but my current interest is in finding what work(s) of his Munson posed for. I found two super-obscure images of Calder's nereids, but haven't found an image of the third one. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 22:46, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Besides any PPIE stuff I think the CT capitol (1914) is the best bet. I have somewhere a booklet about the sculpture there but I'm pretty sure it does not mention any models. But then who does besides Munson herself? Carptrash (talk) 15:14, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:   My email is on the fritz. I apologize if I'm not answering messages. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 00:34, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Were I a young guy just starting instead of . . ...well let's not get macabre, I might make Weinman my object of study.  The only book I know of about his work is a U  Georgia one that has no chronology and only shows one eagle, and no discussion, of his Penn Station work.  I am reading several MMW accounts of the building and will get back if I discover anything useful.  Or interesting or whatever. Carptrash (talk) 15:59, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: No finds in MM&W.Carptrash (talk) 17:47, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Other headaches

message: Do we know anything about Ralph Stackpole's Reverence, the nude kneeling figure atop the Altar of the Fine Arts? == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 16:48, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I know (or think I know) that Stackpole is a California artist so (opinion) anything he did would have been done in CA and not NY so Munson is not likely to have been the model. Carptrash (talk) 17:29, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Interesting how Stirling Calder planned things. For prior expositions, the sculpture had been cast full-sized in staff in NYC and shipped to Chicago/Buffalo/St. Louis by rail. This was costly and works often suffered breakage. For San Francisco, Calder asked sculptors to ship their clay models, and his team scaled them up onsite. Cheaper and less breakage. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 18:51, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: In reading Calder's daughter's book, "Three Alexander Calders" I discovered that Stackpole was a student of Calders and only moved to California to work on Expo stuff, and just stayed.  So Munson could have modeled for him.   I get the impression from the book that Calder was in SF in the year or so leading up to the Expo, so where was he using Munson?  Was she in California too? I doubt it since most of the other sculptors were NYers and I don't see French or Piccirilli working out there.  But Calder?  It is a puzzlement. Carptrash (talk) 19:42, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's the best thing on Reverence.  FDR saw it in 1915, always remembered it, wanted it, thought it was feminine.  Years later as president he contacted Stackpole and asked after it.  Stackpole couldn't locate it but offered to make a copy for Hyde Park, FDR eagerly accepted.  When it arrived it was NOT the sleek sexy thing FDR remembered.  He ordered it hidden at the edge of his property, where it was accidentally dug up in 1987, then concealed all over again within a new ring of trees according to FDR's wishes.  I've seen no good 1915-era pics of this.  So far.  --Lockley (talk) 20:33, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:   Here's one. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 20:56, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I just discovered the same one.  Well done. Carptrash (talk) 21:34, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

text: PS, I just found another backwards print of a picture in Ch 9, where it is just her legs.  See edit about to happen. Carptrash (talk) 21:46, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverence

message: I'm convinced that Robert Ingersoll Aitken's Fountain of the Earth is a mistake, and does not belong on this list. Munson posed for Aitken's larger-than-life figures of Earth and Air, which were not part of a fountain, but flanked the steps down to the sunken garden in the Court of the Universe. Similarly, I think that what the San Francisco Chronicle called "The Spirit of Creation" is actually DCF's "The Genius of Creation." Location-wise, it works. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 02:01, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Why are you not happy with the Aitken fountain?  Company Carptrash (talk) 02:51, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's not that I'm unhappy with it, and if there's documentation, of course it stays. But is there a credible source that lists it? == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 03:14, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we have reached the point of, there is no credible source for anything, but I shall check what I have and see what I see. Carptrash (talk) 03:38, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: So this is AB in SF at PPIE. "....Audrey met Robert Aitken's four allegorical figures of her as the elements, Earth, Water, Air and Fire. (I think she is only two of them) I see myself in the main figures as well as in the groups at the base."  I don't think those have a figurative base, not with groups, I think she is referring to the "Fountain of the Earth."  Okay, not overwhelming.  But a start. Carptrash (talk) 05:02, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for the stuff you emailed. Yes, the sources are imprecise and confusing, but your conclusions make sense. I'll keep looking at it (which is not unpleasant). == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 13:28, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: But I would not be adverse to putting this work in the grey area. Carptrash (talk) 15:21, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Fountain of the Earth

message: that was a nice catch you did, discovering the name of "Mr. Tenetti" in Munson's newspaper piece of Feb 13.  She has to be talking about Francois Tonetti.  He was another member of the ASG / DCF cluster of sculptors, just like most of Munson's other sculptors.  He married another, Mary Lawrence (sculptor).  The dates I have for Tonetti's work suggest that Munson could have been the model for his four female figures on the facade of the Connecticut State Library and maybe, maybe, the two female pediment figures at the Rockefeller family estate Kykuit since that work may have dragged into 1911.  I don't mean to propose headaches to track down, just thought you might like to know about more happy possibilities.  --Lockley (talk) 18:24, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: That's great. Muson wrote something about having posed for a Nymph, installed at Kykuit "by the pool." But I don't remember a sculptor. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 21:40, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: St Gaudens is supposed to have wept when his talented assistant Mary Lawrence married Tonetti, saying, "Now she will just have babies and help her husband with his mediocre work."  Or something similar.  Which turned out to be pretty much accurate. I started the Lawrence article (excuse me while I pat my self on the back) but could never really muster the determination to do a Tonetti one.  Maybe it should happen? Carptrash (talk) 22:54, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:   Maybe a Tonetti article (eventually), but my current interest is in finding what work(s) of his Munson posed for. I found two super-obscure images of Calder's nereids, but haven't found an image of the third one. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 22:46, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Besides any PPIE stuff I think the CT capitol (1914) is the best bet. I have somewhere a booklet about the sculpture there but I'm pretty sure it does not mention any models. But then who does besides Munson herself? Carptrash (talk) 15:14, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:   My email is on the fritz. I apologize if I'm not answering messages. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 00:34, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Tonetti

message: I've had the wrong dates for Weinman's Day and Night. SIRIS says they were 1910, which makes them early, but not impossible for Munson to have posed for. Not a confirmation, but also not an elimination. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 19:34, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Were I a young guy just starting instead of . . ...well let's not get macabre, I might make Weinman my object of study.  The only book I know of about his work is a U  Georgia one that has no chronology and only shows one eagle, and no discussion, of his Penn Station work.  I am reading several MMW accounts of the building and will get back if I discover anything useful.  Or interesting or whatever. Carptrash (talk) 15:59, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: No finds in MM&W.Carptrash (talk) 17:47, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Day'' and ''Night''

message: that Bone has the "Venus with Arms" being done by Weinman for the Queen of Denmark?  Just Sayin'  Carptrash (talk) 00:22, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oh, did I mention 

message: Jo Mora's Poppy Girl (:File:J Mora - Poppy Girl.jpg) from the 1916 Panama–Pacific International Exposition fair, would this be Munson? Randy Kryn (talk) 12:27, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just seeing this now. Do you know whether Mora's Poppy Girl was part of the Exposition's sculpture program or was an individual piece he exhibited on his own? If it was the former, there's a much higher probability that Munson was the model. There were newspaper articles on which sculptures she posed for, but those lists were far from complete. And even her syndicated columns were partially ghost-written, and contained errors (including some whoppers!).Best, == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 16:10, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: My guess is that Munson was working in NYC for most of the modeling that she did for the Expo and Mora (as I recall) was a West Coast guy, so I'd say, unless a good reference shows up, "No." I will look through the literature. Carptrash (talk) 17:24, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Transcontinental transportation being what it was at the time, that makes sense. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:14, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks all for the good analysis. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:12, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for starting the Stirling Calder template. Now we just need more articles to fill it in. Best, == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 20:17, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. At a bare minimum of template entries it seemed the pages and Calder's works are so good that I thought it was a good time to put up a short template in order to possibly encourage editors to create more entries and to guide readers to a few more interesting pages (including Munson's!). Randy Kryn (talk) 20:25, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:   The people at Vizcaya would like to argue that Munson posed for the buxom maidens above. I haven't found any evidence of that, but I enjoy looking. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 20:43, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Good find. Stirling could sure sculpt a mean looking guard-fish. Do they have any evidence besides Stirling having known and used Munson as a model? Does its creation fall within the time range of her adult modeling career? Another interesting wannabe that maybe is. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:51, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's the article. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 20:59, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't been able to find anything which doesn't track back to Vizcaya's claim.  There is a facial resemblence... Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:17, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree. I think Calder moved to Florida for a year to work on the sculpture groups. So Munson probably could have made it there from NYC in a 1-day train ride. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 21:34, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be nice if someone could come up with a cite for that supposition. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:48, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: If Vizcaya had a cite, I think they would be trumpeting it. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 22:20, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. They seem more interested in their gift shop then in scholarship. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:30, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Calder's Vizcaya barge figures were wildly erotic for the time. He toned them down a bit, but not quite what you'd expect from a Scotch Presbyterian. I suspect he learned a lot about how far he could go from his work with Munson at the PPIE. BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 23:11, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible sculpture and sculptor for chart

message: The 1900 US Federal Census for Providence Ward 4, Providence, Rhode Island, District 0031, lists Audrey M. Munson, aged eight, born in June 1891 in New York State. She is with her mother, Catherine Munson, aged 30, also born in New York State. Catherine is divorced. She is keeping a lodging house at 48 Carpenter Street, and the current lodgers are also enumerated.
The census page was dated 5 June 1900, three days before Audrey, according to the article, would have been nine years old.
I leave it to others to add this to the article page.
Walter Turner 2003:E4:FF08:C242:EC9D:347A:89EE:6B60 (talk) 08:16, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth date for Audrey Munson