Talk:Phytic acid

message: I have found what I believe to be an unauthorised mirror of this page, claiming to be a direct link to wikipedia. It's some guy trying to sell a book. Looks very suspicious and there are a lot of similar pages with slightly different urls. Link to the mirror is (removed) and the main page is (removed)
As far as I could tell the content of the page has not been altered.
Benniee (talk) 01:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Unauthorised Mirror

message: I have it by hearsay that nuts aren't soaked before making butter, they may be roasted, but roasting probably doesn't decrease phytic acid content. Also, soaking, as I have it by hearsay, only reduces phytic acid content by about 10%. Rhodescus 21:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a relevant concern (you probably read the Mercola/Chek article judging by the date). I've added stuff to the food science article to reflect the inquiries into these new issues. Hopefully they can be further amended to be less skittishly worded (I'm not that good) while retaining the concerns. Tyciol 02:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nut and legume soaking

message: I noticed that the e-number E391 isn't present on the wikipedia page for e-numbers. I tried doing a search for "e391 phytic acid" on google, and didn't get much except endless reiterations of wikipedia's page in the first three pages of results. Is the e-number reference out of date, or is the reference in this article out-of-date?
I know there is some controversy about safe levels of phytic acid consumption, and health problems in livestock and pets attributed to mineral deficiencies brought on by high levels of phytic acid consumption from soybean-derived feeds.
According to turtlestuff.com: "PHYTIC ACID:  Phosphorus as stored in plants. Phytic acid inhibits the uptake of calcium and can cause problems with Metabolic Bone Disease, renal failure, shell pyramiding and bladder stones." pictures, all copyrighted material.
:"Unless there is high phytic acid content in the forage or supplemental feed of a small ruminant it is not likely to suffer from zinc deficiency which is characterized by unthrifty hair and broken scaly skin especially around the hoof." -Bioline
:"Intestinal fermentation lessens the inhibitory effects of phytic acid on mineral utilization in rats." is one of the many not-so-recent articles expanding on the interaction between intestinal flora in non-ruminants and phytic acid. Nutrition.org/NIH
:"Many plants contain toxic materials or compounds that have an antinutritive effect, such as protease inhibitors, phytohaemoglutinins, gossypol, tannins, phytic acid..." -(Tacon, 1997)
It seems the consensus in the research on phytic acid, is that ruminants and non-ruminants are both ok with small amounts of phytic acid in the diet, but large amount are "anti-nutritive".  Some animals are more susceptible, and some aren't (some ruminants).
:"Phytate commonly binds Zn in plant sources of Zn and greatly diminishes the availability of
Zn for absorption in monogastric and pre-ruminant animals. However, rumen microbes
metabolize most of the dietary phytate so it is not a factor affecting Zn absorption in
ruminating animals. Others remain unidentified. " "
:"Hence, phytic acid, in large amounts, can block the uptake of essential minerals, like calcium, magnesium, copper, iron - and especially zinc - in the intestinal tract. Soy also inhibits the uptake of one of the most important minerals needed for growth and metabolism, iodine, which is used by the thyroid gland in the production of thyroid hormones.
However, for non-vegetarian men, phytic acid may prove to be quite helpful, due to its binding/chelating ability with minerals. Since a large percentage of non-vegetarian adult males have excess iron, phytic acid would be helpful to them by binding the excess iron. But we need to bear in mind phytic acid will simultaneously bind other minerals, such as calcium, magnesium and zinc. In the case of children and menstruating women, the phytic acid in soy can be a serious negative, as women and children need iron. In women, iron is needed to replace the loss during their menses and in children iron is required for growth and development." -HealthDimensions
From the article: "Phytic acid has no known toxicity and is not known to cause mutagenic activity. It may have more therapuetic value when added to water rather than when naturally absorbed in foods as it is difficult to free from fiber."  - there are no references here.
"Toxicity test :LD50 4.793g/Kg" - PeakChem
As referenced above, phytic acid and is commonly considered as anti-nutritive.  
Phytic acid, in brans (insoluble fibers) appears to effect a decrease in colon cancers - 1 reference:
:"Phytic acid in wheat bran affects colon morphology, cell differentiation and apoptosis" - OxfordJournals
:"In conclusion, our results have shown that WB, due both to its dietary fiber and endogenous PA component, and pure PA added to a low fiber diet can significantly increase the rate of apoptosis and degree of differentiation in the distal colon. They can also have favorable effects on colon morphology, reducing crypt cell height and crypt density. These results, coupled with the previously observed reductions in ACF and cell proliferation (1), show that WB, its fiber and PA can affect early events in colon carcinogenesis. However, the exact mechanisms of that modulation need further elaboration." - wheat bran (WB) and/or phytic acid (PA) inhibit colon cancer - OxfordJournals
In conclusion, this article seems biased and, overall, doesn't match even two hours worth of web research. The article delves into the health benefits, excusing the anti-nutritive effect of phytic acid, is not up to date with regard to natural sources of phytic acid, doesn't recognize the dietary difference between moderate sources and dense sources and contradicts the standing literature on dietary availability of nutrients in non-ruminant guts with adequate fermenting bacteria.
Throwing in a plug for soybeans at the end, nice.  Research says phytic acid is dangerous in high quantities, leads to organ dysfunction due to chronic nutrient deficiency and has protective effects which are no greater than those given by wheat bran. Ugh, I lost track of where I was going.  Hope this is helpful. -Rhodescus 21:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Phytic Acid and E-number

message: I may edit this page at some point, but I realize I need a lot more references, so it will have to wait. I've state my major concerns above, if the page is going to promote the food science of phytic acid, it should do so fairly, without looking like a promotion of phytic acid as an anti-cancer wonder drug. Also, not enough weight is given to the anti-nutritive effects of phytic acid, in both the food science section and the paragraph dealing with ruminants.
It would also be nice to see some references for the environmental effects, and a blurb about the development of strains of low-phytic-acid feedstocks (there's a 2000 patent, and advertising, so I think the page is out-of-date.)
I also want to put in some more notes and references about the anti-nutritive effects of phytic acid, and perhaps some notes and references about asian dietary habits (along with minimal consumption of unfermented soy) which tend to minimize the anti-nutritive effects of phytic acid. It is a very large topic! -Rhodescus 18:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, sourcing is a difficult thing, but at the very least we can examine the concerns and inquiries in health culture, and then with sourcing either add support or negation to them. It's notable to address myths regarding substances, both positive and negative. Tyciol 02:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Editing needs

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thread_title: [[WP:FOOD|WikiProject Food and drink]] Tagging

message: I tried to check the reference (5) in the main article referring to soaking and it is a dead link.  This is the reference on soaking nuts and seeds removing phytic acid.  There is a lack of scientific research on the benefit/difference of soaking nuts and seeds.  
This article states that phytic acid is primarily in the hull of nuts, seeds and grains.  Most nuts and many seeds are typically consumed after hulling and thus may have less phytic acid than an unhulled counterpart.  Also, there seems to be much debate on phytic acid as far as it is an "enzyme inhibitor" making it difficult to digest if unsoaked.  I checked the enzyme inhibitor entry and found that it does not reference phytic acid at all.  
Does anybody have verifiable scientific research on this subject?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by It065 (talk • contribs) 07:10, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed that reference. There's a book about it and you can read most of it in the preview feature of Google books.--Nutriveg (talk) 19:49, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soaking 

message: IP6 is not phytic acid: It is a distinctly different compound.  All the inositol phosphates are different from phytic acid. IP6 contains 4-Ca and 2-Mg atoms replacing the OH radicals in the phytic acid molecule.   The two should not be confused in an article on biochemistry.  209.169.85.18 (talk) 11:54, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know what's accurate.  Added Phytin (WP:BOLD); I'll let others sort out the definitions. 01:03, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I entirely agree with HStreek; IP6 is definitely the same as phytic acid, both refer to an inositol ring with 6 phosphate groups. The IP user is thinking of phytate, which is the general term for the salt form of IP6. Phytin refers specifically to the calcium or magnesium salt of IP6. Most literature discussing the storage of phosphate and chelation of cations in plant seeds stick to the term phytate because it is the general term for the salt.Puhlaa (talk) 02:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "IP6" redirects here -- And it should not. 

message: This section is not clear....
particularly low intake of essential minerals, especially young children and those in developing countries, this effect can be undesirable.
Binding of calcium with phytic acid depends on pH.[12]
"Probiotic lactobacilli, and other species of the endogenous digestive microflora as well, are an important source of the enzyme phytase which catalyses the release of phosphate from phytate and hydrolyses the complexes formed by phytate and metal ions or other cations, rendering them more soluble, ultimately improving and facilitating their intestinal absorption"[13]
Ascorbic Acid (vitamin C) can reduce phytic acid effects on iron.[14]  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.17.200.2 (talk) 18:18, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not clearly worded 

message: Not mentioned in article. 109.157.79.50 (talk) 01:27, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why does "phytin" redirect here? 

message: The link to 31 cancerorg doesn't exist and I can't find any reference to Inositol hexaphosphate when I do a search there.
The weight of Pubmed evidence seems to be completely against the statement that it is a false anti-cancer treatment. It does in fact have  apart to play. Whether it is a cure by itself is another issue but to dismiss its effectveness (with Inositol) seems to be wrong. It should say something like: There are not enough human trials to make any definitive conclusion but the research so far in vitro and on animals is promising. The indications so far are that it could be taken alongside conventional drug treatments. 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17044765
http://m.jn.nutrition.org/content/133/11/3778S.full
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14608114
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27187454
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4882699/
http://jeccr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1756-9966-29-12
for example.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.210.93.192 (talk) 21:05, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Are any of these WP:MEDRS? (I checked just the first - it wasn't) Alexbrn (talk) 23:46, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-cancer references 

message: The data in the "Food sources of phytic acid" table is mg/100g? Maybe add that small info? People may think its mcg/100g or mg/kg ;)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.193.17.249 (talk) 17:19, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Food sources of phytic acid 

message: ref. 13 - {meaning?} does not appear to belong here
ref. 17 & 23 - the reference is missing
ref. 28 - -autor?
ref. 29 - this should probably not be all capitals & the reference is missing
96.88.198.77 (talk) 01:10, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  misc. problems 

message: Not to be confused with phytanic acid:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytanic_acid
which is a fatty acid
note: ruminants breakdown phytic but builds up phytanic acid from plants  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yasir muhammed ali (talk • contribs) 05:00, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not to be confused 

message: In the section Effect on human health, the paragraph beginning with the phrase "Many modern authors argue ..." gets its talking points from four references that all involve AbulKalam M. Shamsuddin and his test-tube or rat experiments. He is also the author of the book "IP6: Nature's Revolutionary Cancer Fighter: Nature's Revolutionary Cancer-Fighter" (ISBN 978-1575663579), the cover of which even makes him seem like a total woo-peddler to me.
I suggest that this paragraph be removed due to the seemingly sole use of low-quality evidence, as per Wikipedia:MEDASSESS. Skoskav~enwiki (talk) 15:48, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I wrote that section.  I also happen to think that Shamsuddin is a quack.  Many people nowadays say that phytic acid is an anti-oxidant (which it is) and they subscribe to the theory that antioxidants are good for you (I don't but that's not relevant).  So I think we should recognize the modern views on phytic acid.  Shamsuddin's views (e.g. essential nutrient) are out there, although he does get lots and lots of citations.  There are people on this talk page that reference his papers.  I didn't want to be the guy that starts a wikipedia editing war by completely removing viewpoints that I don't agree with.  I do support the removal of Shamsuddin's eccentric views... it seems like his science is bad as he cherry picks data that supports his theory and doesn't present all of his findings.  Also I don't think he understands what an essential nutrient is or found evidence to support his view on that.  Glennchan (talk) 23:19, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  The section "Effect on human health" smells like pseudoscience 

message: Regarding edits by User:Zefr... here's why I reverted them.  I don't think that sources should be removed simply because they are "outdated".  Just because something is old doesn't mean that it is a bad source.  There hasn't been any modern research that has invalidated the old science... phytic acid is still an anti-nutrient and it still chelates minerals.  The old version recognizes the various viewpoints on phytic acid, including the modern revisionist version where phytic acid is supposedly beneficial.  If somebody wants to know about whether or not phytic acid is an anti-nutrient, I think that the old version presents a reasonably good summary of that debate.
And it's not primary research.  Shamsuddin (who I think is a quack) has lots and lots of citations... his views are popular among his peers.
I don't mean to crap on your work.  But could you rework the article without imposing your worldview on it?
Glennchan (talk) 06:51, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: My two main purposes with the revision were to consolidate similar information on mineral absorption (and to highlight this effect as the main story of phytic acid and minerals) and to use updated reviews per WP:MEDASSESS, rather than primary in vitro research, which is now mostly removed. --Zefr (talk) 16:24, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverting edit by Zefr 

message: study phytic acid content of cereals and legumes and interaction with proteins.
see the table 1
for peas and barley phytic acid content
Vatadoshufrench 09:09, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  for peas and barley content adding to the table 

message: an interesting document of fao on phytate
pdf on google 
title
FAO/INFOODS Databases FAO/INFOODS/IZiNCG Global food composition database for phytate version 1.0 - PhyFoodComp1.0 User guide
PDFwww.fao.org › ...
Vatadoshufrench 10:33, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  fao on phytate