Template talk:Criticism section

message: There is a discussion at NPOV about Criticism and controversy sections.  It has lead to a draft discussion of a article structure addition.  Please have a look. Morphh  (talk) 18:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV discussion on addition

message: The way I had written it basically says "it's been suggested that this change will improve the article's neutrality". Contrast that with "this article has a problem and it this is the way to fix it". If you would apply the latter phrase to an article, then obviously you're so sure about it that you could fix it yourself, whereas I'd assume this template ought to be used in cases where the "right solution" to an article's POV problems is not so crystal clear. Especially if this is going to be expanded to include "controversy" surrounding a specific incident involving the subject (rather than ongoing commentary by "critics"). It would make little sense to intersperse this material into other sections and lose all semblance of chronological order. Simply changing the title of the section would probably fix that issue most of the time. Or there could be better solution for a specific given article, one that we don't have a template for because nobody's thought of it yet. — CharlotteWebb 19:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: These templates are often used when you see something that needs fixing, but don't have time to fix it, or you know it needs reorganizing, but aren't involved enough in the topic to reorganize it well, etc. — Omegatron 20:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: h2g2bob

message: What about changing the template so that it talks about criticism sections being bad for article flow rather than it being bad for NPOV? I value NPOV, but a coherent article is more likely (on average) to be NPOV than an article that flows badly, and it's easier to agree on coherence than on NPOV. Andjam 15:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Go for it. I'm not sure what wording you intend but I can assume it would make more sense than the current. — CharlotteWebb 12:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While you could add the aspect of coherence, I would not remove the aspect of NPOV as it applies to Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Article_structure.  In fact I would probably relink the neutral presentation to the NPOV and the coherence to Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Article_structure. Morphh  (talk) 13:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, I advocate the principle of least astonishment when piping links. Don't do it in such a way that the relationship between the link targets to the message text is non-obvious or resembles spoon-feeding. Don't link to what you think is useful related reading, link to what matches the main message. If these ideas don't match, it would be better to rewrite the message than to turn it into an easter egg hunt. Create a separate MoS page if needed. — CharlotteWebb 14:31, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coherence vs NPOV 

message: I have a little problem. Hundreds of articles have Controversy sections. I do agree that this tag is needed, when it comes to have too much controversy sections, which illustrates the person in a bad light, like in Tom Cruise's case, who has 7 sub-sections (!). However, I strongly disagree with a complete removal of such sections. It's not the same as Trivia sections, which are unencyclopedic. And when there are controversy sections, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person is depicted in a less neutral way.  
And let's take Tom Cruise one more time. How can THE WHOLE section (of 7 subs) be merged wholly into the article? It's almost impossible. And if it is removed, the article will miss information. That's why I added "some of" to the template.--84.228.84.242 23:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hi guys! 

message: Since this template underwent an AfD (see top of the page), it is obviously controversial. The doc to the template seems to be presented in a one-sided manner, as well. I broadened Jimbo's quote to include his full statement, that criticism sections are sometimes necessary. I think they are often necessary, and flow fine. When there is a wholesale criticism about a movement or a person, that should go in a criticism section. Plus, it's a major boon to readers to allow them to quickly find criticism of, say, a politician, or an alternative (or conventional) medical therapy. ImpIn | (t - c) 03:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If a template survives an AfD, it does not mean that is controversial. It is up to editors to decide if to segregate negative POVs to a section named "Criticism" or not. In most cases, it is best to not top make such segregations, for reasons of WP:UNDUE, flow of text, and for a better NPOV presentation of a subject. As for Jimbo's full statement, please add it if you wish, as it does not detract from its meaning. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Also note that this template is also based in good practices described in WP:WORDS and Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Article_structure, not just Jimbo's comment. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

text: I have removed the prescriptive text from the template doc, as this is not a policy page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Disagree with the template

message: I have been seeing this template more and more lately and I think it is a mistake. A lot of times, I am only interested in the criticism/controversy part of an article. It is often the interesting and socially relevant part. Many articles are simply too long to try and find this information. Having this section is efficient and saves the reader's time.
If I see an article with no criticism/controversy section it usually tells me that it has been deleted by an interested party. I suppose this is the downside: it makes it easier to delete. This is especially true with companies and PR firms (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/technology/19wikipedia.html).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.222.125.20 (talk) 22:22, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No. Criticism sections are only "interesting" when someone wants to read only negative material on a subject. That's not how our articles should be written. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds like crap based on ignorance. Culture itself is always a development of criticism. Who thinks that should start studying on fields like Critical theory.--Sum (talk) 13:20, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Are you confusing "critique" and "criticism"? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism is often the interesting and socially relevant part of an article 

message: I agree that there shouldn't be criticism sections in biographical or historical articles, but not in articles about philosophical or psychological or similar theories, because in these instances criticism of a theory is usually notable itself. For example let's take utilitarianism. This ethical theory (as well as all ethical theories) has been openly criticized in many many ways, not in anyway connected to each other. Impossible to integrate to other sections. It's a common practice to describe a theory and then to write about how it was criticized and defended (arguments for and against). What's wrong with that? Maybe we could write somewhere, that these cases are exceptions?--Tired time (talk) 19:31, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: They aren't exceptions. If worded properly, an article on a theory should not be laid out like "X said all these things, but Y disagreed". It should be possible to examine the theory's key points without having to draw a line between positive and negative. Much of the material segregated into the csection on utilitarianism could easily be split out without much change, for example. As-is, the presence of a criticism section is evidently encouraging editors to dump negative material into it. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:51, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism section in articles about theories 

message: This  tag suggests distributing criticisms throughout the article ('integrating' them) instead of grouping them together. I disagree that this approach should be used to create a WP:NPOV in general, and suggest either deleting or rewording this template.
In a controversy that is highly polarized, such as where some people believe the statements made by an official source and some believe in statements by vocal objectors, it makes better sense to group the objections together in their own section. That makes it easier to understand the objections as a group with common motivations (such as: 'the government is not telling us the whole truth', or 'the article is nothing but pseudoscience'). Mixing the objections with the 
'official' or 'mainstream' material would not make the article have a more NPOV but would instead make it more difficult to read and understand. David Spector 21:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've only rarely seen examples where splitting criticism leads to be a better article. Most of the time it's the result of lazy editing and encourages people to treat the criticism section as a dumping ground for whatever negative points they can find or express. In particular, I assume that you raised this due to my tagging of High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program, where the criticism section served precisely that purpose. The mistake here is assuming that the only way to fix the problem is to randomly disperse criticism throughout the article, whereas sometimes it's as straightforward as reworking the criticism section to cover some specific aspect of the subject which attracts criticism or controversy. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:55, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

text: Ah, but again that's a suboptimal way of looking at the problem. With the HAARP article we are under absolutely no obligation to treat the nutjob conspiracy theories as "criticism" or "controversy" in themselves - the point is that secondary sources have remarked that HAARP is a magnet for conspiracy theories. This is simply a statement of fact, and can be assessed neutrally by examining on;y the secondary sources. The old csection has therefore been neutralised without having to integrate it. This is the correct way to tackle criticism of this sort. Simply "getting them out of the way of the article", as you put it, is lazy and does not lead to high-quality, balanced articles. As for the assertion that we are "far from consensus here", maybe you and I are far from consensus, but the wider community decided the issue quite some time ago. That's why this template exists and is regularly deployed. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:55, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

text: Wait a second here--I think that the obsession with "integrating criticism" has about as many problems as having sections devoted to criticism, but how can you simultaneously say that "we have no way of evaluating sources" and that certain criticisms are "indeed less credible"?  Croctotheface (talk) 19:14, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  As I pointed out above, "integrating criticism" does not necessarily mean splitting it up sentence-by-sentence and dotting it around the article. It refers to not having the article structured such that negative material is essentially cordoned off from the rest of the article to the detriment of the article flow. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:40, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, my issue is that one of the main arguments against having dedicated sections for criticism is that they encourage bad writing because people treat them as a dumping ground for negative material.  However, forcing the criticism to be "integrated" can also encourage bad writing because editors then do exactly what you say they shouldn't: split it up sentence by sentence and dot it around the article, or something like that.  I'm not operating under any misunderstanding about what is supposed to happen; I'm operating with a full understanding of what actually happens.  Croctotheface (talk) 18:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not sure how the template could be reworded to address that. That said, this is a matter of interpreting the template, rather than questioning its basic validity as David Spector has. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:57, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

text: I don't follow you at all. You criticise newspapers for "he said she said" reporting which treats all input as valid and simply prints it sorted into positive and negative points, but you're doing so while advocating that Wikipedia allow exactly this format in articles. Do you disagree that the reworking of the negative material on HAARP has improved the quality of the article? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:40, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should vote, since obviously there are proponents for both sides--Tired time (talk) 15:52, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Arguments are not settled by voting on Wikipedia. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:57, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Unimportant arguments, such as this one, are not settled by voting. Who gets the banhammer, and other stuff that really matters, is always settled by voting. Pcap ping 06:53, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Only RfA, RfB and ArbCom are settled by voting. For some editors, those are the most important parts of the project. For most editors they are largely irrelevant. It is certainly the case that articlespace is in general more important than the backroom power struggles. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:29, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  This template should be deleted or reworded 

message: Honestly, I like having the criticism section, because it separates it from the article where it can be it's own self-contained unit, where it can be explained in proper and fair detail, rather that trying to smashing it into a section that is already, long. (Most of the time.) Frankly I say keep criticism sections, and get rid of this: "Remove Criticism, rewrite into article" Header. (Please contact me if you disagree.)--The Navigators (talk)-May British Rail Rest in Peace. 02:30, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This is already discussed in the previous section. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 11:00, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  I fail to see the issue with Criticism