Wikipedia talk:No original research/Archive 27

message: I don't think any of the edits that have been made so far are at all controvercial.  Nothing that hasn't been discussed and approved of has been added or subtracted.  But please keep it slow... let's give everyone a chance to absorb these edits, and think about their impact. Then we can think about what (if anything) should be next. Blueboar 22:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. I was only trying to make a couple changes I believed were agreeable and within consensus. Some progress on the section, even if it does not address the principle points of disagreement is productive and healthy to a good working environment. I don't plan on making any more changes at the moment, but I may propose a few more changes to keep things moving in a positive direction. Vassyana 22:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly right in my book.  Thanks. Blueboar 12:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New edits... So far so good 

message: I would like to change the first paragraph of the section from:
To:
I believe this would provide more clarity, tighten the policy and differentiate it better from other policies. Objections? Agreement? Thoughts? Vassyana 21:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. That would be a good improvement. COGDEN 16:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What would be good about the change? How would it improve policy? Vassyana 00:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I support this language, and think it is an improved expression of the concept. ... Kenosis 22:20, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:No original research#Reliable sources]] 

message: I've changed the introduction in PSTS from plain "here's the types" to a caveat that various fields have various definitions, to address the "not in my field" concern explicitly. Acknowledging the existing distinctions may be helpful in clarifying the policy. If anyone objects strongly, please feel free to revert the change, but also let us know why the change was objectionable. Vassyana 22:22, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed it. (I'd intended to write "Removing wandering leading up to the basic Wikipedia assertion. Please put extras into a footnote or something" but while backspacing I hit the "Enter" key and it came out as "Re".) The opening paragraph should not be filled with explanations. Just cut to the chase as it was before, please. Thanks. ... Kenosis 23:27, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering the number of people that relate the definitions to their field, it seemed appropriate. Why do you think it is out of place? Vassyana 09:30, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP needn't engage in apologetics to explain slight variances in interpretation of PSTS by several academic disciplines, especially not before making this assertion that is relevant to the readers/editors of WP, which can be stated in one very brief sentence. If they're judged to be needed at all, such apologetic caveats are just as easily put into a footnote, and I would presume that those diligent enough to complain that it doesn't match the PSTS distinction in their particular specialized field would also be diligent enough to respect that it's explained right there in the footnote. But if the extra explanation of what areas of endeavor are different from WP's use of the concept is included, please make clear at the outset of the caveat that WP uses PSTS in much the same way that professional library science uses it. ..... (I might also add that WP's function is in an important  way very analogous to a library because both are not expected to synthesize original, novel interpretations of existing material, but to serve as conduits of existing published material --albeit libraries are mostly passive collections while WP is an active, dynamic encyclopedia.  The fact that several disciplines use PSTS in somewhat differing ways is reflective of the fact that in those fields the goal is generally to facilitate original research, not to avoid it.) ... Kenosis 14:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In information science, primary sources are nothing more or less than the original source of a claim, piece of data, et cetera. That is not how primary sources are defined or treated in Wikipedia. That being so, such a clarification would be inaccurate and misleading. Additionally, it's not apologetics, it's a caveat, which is not at all the same thing. All in all, your reply is just plain confusing. Vassyana 15:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In short, please put extra explanations/caveats about who uses PSTS differently into a footnote. ..... As to the assertion that WP's usage is in some cases different from library science usage, it's a reasonable point, but only insofar as WP includes more in the primary source category than might sometimes be the case in a typical library (e.g., here). But the basic distinctions are identical. Virtually any experienced librarian would agree that if the topic is Aristotle, Aristotle's works are primary sources, books about Aristotle's works or ideas are secondary sources, and encyclopedic summaries are tertiary sources. From the fairly standard definitions offered by the University of Maryland library system: "Primary sources are original materials. They are from the time period involved and have not been filtered through interpretation. Secondary sources are accounts written after the fact with the benefit of hindsight. They are interpretations and evaluations of primary sources. Secondary sources are not evidence, but rather commentary on and discussion of evidence. Tertiary sources consist of information which is a distillation and collection of primary and secondary sources [giving as examples almanacs, encyclopedias and fact books]." In other words, it's very close to WP's usage. ... Kenosis 16:16, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If we're going to keep the primary-secondary-tertiary model, we want that model to be the same as that given in primary source, secondary source, and tertiary source. Making them different leads to confusion. If we do make them different, there needs to be a big caveat. A footnote won't do. COGDEN 16:52, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe "we" do want a matchup with the articles on primary, secondary and tertiary sources. But who will maintain them? Remember, they are articles, and this is a policy, and thus it's essentially a cross-namespace citation if used in this way. One possible solution may be to disambig to a WP use of primary sources, secondary sources and tertiary sources. TBH, though, the basics appear compatible with existing article-namespace pages, which could of course be improved. ... Kenosis 17:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro caveat in [[WP:PSTS]] 

message: On to something completely different. Another area of this policy that I have heartburn with is Original images. I have run across several articles here on WP, where there is clearly OR injected in the caption accompanying the image. The two images currently on the Korean Wall article are a couple examples. Originally, the first picture stated it was a view of the wall, when there is no wall visible in the picture (I subsequently changed it, but well before I ever ran across this policy). There is a fence in the picture, but no wall. Anyway, the entire article is unsupported OR, so I've nominated it for deletion, though some people so far have expressed a desire to merge it with another article. At any rate, it shows how OR can also be injected into article through another means, whether intentionally or accidentally, since the first picture was uploaded with no description, so another editor created an erroneous caption for the article to advance a point of view. wbfergus  Talk 11:26, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Original images section deals with the images themselves, not the captions.  I would classify captions as "text"... and as such, they would be subject to the same rules as any other text, such as that added in the body of the article.  No? Blueboar 16:22, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I kind of see what you're saying, and agree with it, but that would open up a whole new can of worms. If that was enforced, then the captions themselves would need to be referenced, and then that by itself would effectively kill any images that didn't come from a secondary source, and allow only a few from 'published' primary sources, but the remainder of 'primary source' images, i.e. peoples photographs from tours or whatever, would effectively be prohibited. Correct? wbfergus  Talk 18:29, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We allow original research in identifying what is in the image, so long as there is no serious dispute over it. This is not ideal, but it is a necessary practicality. The reputation of the person identifying what the image is of is important in helping to decide these things. We have a guy who goes to botanical gardens and takes excellent close up photos of specific species of plants for use on articles about that species. We trust him. On the other hand if some anon posts a pic and someone says wait a minute, is that really a so and so? Then we gotta remove it unless someone can find evidence (such as another pic of it in a reliable source that looks similar enough). WAS 4.250 19:05, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like we have a sensible "rule of thumb", unofficial, determination here.  It seems to follow the rules for WP:V... things that are challenged or likely to be challenged need verification.  If it is not likely to be challenged, it can be placed on the back burner.  After all, if no one doubts the caption, there is no need to worry about it being OR... but if someone does doubt it, some form of verification is needed and the rules for NOR could be applied.  Common sense and editor consensus applies.  The question is, do we need to explicitly state this in the policy?  I think that depends on how common it is to have erronious or contested captions. Blueboar 19:47, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Beans? Let's not add rules until they are needed. WAS 4.250 19:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another topic for discussion 

message: If the section is disputed, please discuss and do not edit it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)  —Preceding comment was added at 05:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What have we been doing the last three months? Reverting the tag is silly. Of all things to start an edit war about, this is the stupidest. I'm going to wait a while (until you regain your sanity, Jossi), then re-insert the tag. COGDEN 05:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it really matters whether we have a tag or not.  The discussion is not going to end becuase the tag is added or removed. With Vassyana's proposal, we seem to be closing in on consensus language... let's focus on that instead of on whether there is a stupid tag or not. We have a proposal on the table (Vassyana's version).  There is no point in making small edits to the extant policy section if we are potentially going to replace it with Vassyana's proposal. Let's settle the big issue first. Blueboar 13:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text:  This tag issue is becoming unhelpful, Codgen. Please consider dropping it and moving forward instead. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's important to have a tag, if for nothing else than to prevent the article from lying about itself. You'll notice at the top, there is a caption box stating that the article "has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow." Until that statement becomes true with respect to the PSTS section, we need a tag to alert editors that the section is not yet at consensus level. At the moment, the section is kind of experimental. If consensus emerges, then we can remove the tag.  COGDEN 18:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text: It's far better to have a tag on the specific section that says what's under discussion, rather than a protection tag on the whole policy saying it's in dispute. The new tag is a reasonable compromise to the disputed tag, and serves to direct people to the talk page to join the discussion. Dhaluza 23:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources - Disputed section? 

message: Not adequately discussed in the article is testimony of an editor who is a direct witness to events. For example, there is a book that can be cited, Jonathan Karl, The Right to Bear Arms: The Rise of America's New Militias, HarperCollins, New York (1995) , which contains an error, a quotation of a speech I made at a public event that was actually delivered as a printed handout. Short of gathering affidavits from other witnesses to the event, it should be possible for the editor to make a correcting comment based on him having been a witness, without that being rejected as "original research". This might usefully take a tag, "statement of personal witness" or some such. 
Articles are almost entirely edited by nonwitnesses, but we need to allow for the participation of those who have been actual witnesses. Perhaps we could provide some system for filing images of verified affidavits for witness statenents. Jon Roland 14:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Witness accounts are notoriously unreliable and have been known to contradict the body of other evidence. Beyond that, Wikipedia is predicated on the representing the body of published information. Between the two, there is little room for such a proposal. Vassyana 15:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia is not a first publisher of information. If there is a mistake in the historical record of an event, get the publisher to correct it on the next edition, or in an Erratum. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Yep, unfortunately somebody can get something published, and then either intentionally or unintenionally inject "mistakes", and once it's published it carries much more weight than any eyewitness accounts. Then, trying to get the "mistakes" corrected afterwards is nigh onto impossible, and by then it seems at least one other "source" gets published using the same "mistake". Then, the "mistake" gets perpetuated and slowly becomes "fact" over the course of time. Publishers, especially of books, rarely are concerned with with being accurate, they merely want to get something out there so people can buy them. Then, the more controversy over the book, the better the sales. I've tried numerous times to get various 'things' corrected, jumping through all kinds of hoops presenting evidence and statements to no avail. Publishers aren't concerned once something is in print and being sold to people, unless it may turn out to be a financial "detriment" (lawsuit, etc.). wbfergus  Talk 15:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I recognize this suggestion has a history, but I did not find in that history my suggestion for the uploading of images of verified (sworn) affidavits, which are acceptable in a court of law. It seems to me that it would work to allow citing to such affidavits, or other online court documents, such as those one can access through Pacer, as a way to allow corrections of errors in published works by witnesses, without getting into the problems mentioned above. The suggestions mentioned below are all very well, but don't go to corrections in cited works, which errors might otherwise get propagated before someone comes along to correct them in a reputable medium, something that could take years or decades. Jon Roland 20:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an anyone can edit and anyone can verify encyclopedia. It is not a place for original research. We are not a publishing house for information not available in other places. That is not what an encyclopedia does. No. We will not let anyone publish things here based on an something that is not publicly verify-able. We can however delete some things that are proved false to a trusted user such as a person claiming his birth date is wrong in the article on him. OTRS can be contacted for such purposes. We deleted that a covered bridge had no traffic when a trusted user saw it have traffic. But without a source that anyone can use to verify it we could not add that the bridge had traffic. Some things are judgement calls, but as a matter of policy there is no way Wikipedia is going to do as you suggest. WAS 4.250 21:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text: "Online court documents" are published reliable primary sources that can already be used according to existing policy. They must be used with care, but they can be used. WAS 4.250 21:34, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One important point in this is that they must actually be a court document... ie filed with a court of law.  This is because we recognize court websites as being a reliable publishers of such documents.  You can not simply write up an affidavit, scan it and put it on a website.  We need the "impramator" of the court system, saying it is legit. Beyond that, WAS's comment is right on the money.Blueboar 22:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text: The gist of the original question is whether personal knowledge of events is enough to trump a reliable source, not whether we want wholesale admission of personal accounts.  The answer is still generally no, but it's a more limited question.  If a person feels that he himself has been misquoted, slighted, or otherwise disserved by a Wikipedia article, then that person can bring it up on the talk page, and people will probably respect it.  The discussions on the talk page about what actually happened, whether someone is portrayed unfairly or slandered, etc., follows a different discussion format that doesn't strictly adhere to NOR.  In fact, OR and unverified claims are just fine on the talk page within some bounds.  If it's a minor error of no consequence I would just fix it, and see if anyone challenges it.  If they do, I'm afraid that a book by a reliable author trumps a statement of "that's not true" by a witness or someone personally involved to the events.  If there's a place to correct errors in the official history, it starts somewhere other than Wikipedia.  For example, if it were important enough and you got another reliable source somewhere else that the book is in error, you could say there is a conflict among sources, and people will choose the more believable one, all things considered.  And in a practical sense, if you see something that's clearly wrong but sourced (e.g. tornado wind speeds are 300-500 mph, which they used to think in the 1950s and can thus be sourced), you can certainly use your personal expertise as the basis for finding better sources to set the article straight.  Wikidemo 23:16, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say almost always Original Research... but there are a few exceptions... for example, if someone's personal testimony, observation, whatever, was included in a reliable source (say an autobiography).  Assuming no one objected to the obvious conflict of interest, the person who was made the observation could quote that text in an article without violating NOR.  It wouldn't be original to Wikipedia. Blueboar 03:13, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: maybe.  Most of the time it would still be OR, and generally autobiographies are not reliable sources (I don't think).  How closely are they fact checked?  reality checked?  --Rocksanddirt 04:06, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: we are getting way off topic... but Autobiographies can be reliable or not, depending on how and where they are used. context is everything. In an article about the subject of the autobiography, it should be reliable... at least for the subject's view of his/her life. (I would probably phrase any reference with text attribution to make this clear).  But the point is, it would not be Original Research. In any case, I suspect my possible exemption would be very rare indeed. Ideally, the subject of an article shouldn't edit the article on him/her.  They should simply comment on the talk page, and ask others to edit. Blueboar 13:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Good wording of how the policies "should" be applied. No idea though how that concept can be written into existing policies without weakening the policies though. My word skills aren't up to that level, but I really like the concept. Eyewitnes-type testimony can be extremely unreliable, but then agin, the same can often be said (and documented), about secondary source type information, usually from someone seeking to establish a biased point of view. History articles (especially Military History) are notorious for this. As the saying goes, "History is written by the victors". It can also be para-phrased to "History is written by those who seek to make a name for themselves, by getting published". Accuracy or reliability can be easily ignored in history, often just by selective use of sources (just like this policy and the other policies seek to take aim at). Some historians are keen on trying to remain objective and nuetral and equally presenting all sides. Other historians, usually those trying to distinguish themselves from all of the other work already out there, instead selectively use every source they can find (whether reliable or not), to only advance a "non-mainstream" POV of the event. But, once their work is published, they can usually get enough 'supporters' to clamor that the work is the "authoritive definitions of the events leading up to, and through XYZ event". It then becomes a reliable and verifiable source, even if it's based on a highly POV bias and would otherwise be considered as a fringe theory. wbfergus  Talk 18:26, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personal testimony 

message: A few weeks ago, I posted an RFC on this page (and at WP:NPOV) about the above article.  Several of you responded, and expressed some dismay at the amount of OR and POV the article contained (Jossi, for example, called it a "POV and OR nightmare") and suggested either deleting the article or stubbifying it.  Based upon your comments I did a major cut back,  not quite stubbifying the article, but deleting the sections that I felt were the most objectionable (about half of the article). My stated reasoning behind this significant cut was so that we could rebuild the article in a way that does not violate NOR and NPOV.  Unfortunately, my cut was viewed by some of the editors at the article as being POV in itself (since I am a Freemason, they view my concerns as being suspect).  Rather than get into an edit war, I am once again calling for comment and help.  I would like to ask that some of you return to the article and clarify your comments (or add new ones).  Please help me explain why this article is such a "nightmare".  Thanks. Blueboar 15:41, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Catholicism and Freemasonry]] again 

message: ::: First, I want to acknowledge that it's clear a lot of work has gone into this definition. And creating standards can be a useful thing: instead of putting effort into choosing between two or more alternatives, I can simply look to see what the Wikipedia policy is on a given  situation is, & act accordingly.
::: However, my point in my objection above is that, as someone who struggles with issues of original research whenever I write articles, all of this effort fails to help me one bit. Maybe it's the subject I concentrate on: I write a lot of articles on history, & I find that, if I try to follow what I think is the intent of "no original research" (& I've been contributing to Wikipedia for over 5 years now, so I should have some idea about what I'm doing), I honestly can't think of any reason to treat primary & secondary sources differently. If Tacitus or Suetonius state A, I report (in effect) "according to Tacitus, A." If a secondary source like Edward Gibbon, A.H.M. Jones, or Ramsay McMullen say "A is supposed to mean B", I write (in effect) "according to Edward Gibbon, A is supposed to mean B". Citing a statement from Gibbon, another from Jones & a third form McMullen & saying that it proves some novel concept is, IMHO, just as much original research as if someone were to the same by citing from Tactius & Suetonius. Lastly, if a tertiary source like an encyclopedia says "C", I should take a step back, scratch my head & wonder why I am relying  on an encyclopedia for my research. (Admittedly, there are reasons.) In short, for someone writing history (& related subjects), this detailed definition of the three types of sources is not a positive aid. 
::: This detained definition does help two sorts of people: the extreme literalist & the motivated troublemaker. Wikipedia encourages the use of secondary sources over primary ones -- for reasons we need not go into here. Yet sometimes secondary sources get the facts wrong: respected authors confuse dates, botch translations, get sloppy in their research. Or sometimes they state fact A, & themselves reference a primary source; why not then cut out the middleman & cite the primary source alone? Despite all of this, there are people who will argue that Wikipedia articles should always avoid using primary sources, no matter the reason. (Note: this is not a "strawman argument"; I have seen many such arguments put forth by established Wikipedians in good faith. It is amazing -- & a little sad -- to see the many ways a simple statement of policy has been twisted.)
::: Now I came to all of this as an outsider: I saw Vassyana's notice at the Village Pump, & followed the link. I don't know what has been argued here before I popped in, & to be blunt, if this is a compromise of what has gone before then this effort is in a lot of trouble. I've stayed away from policy for a long while because I've learned that either I can spend my time arguing policy or writing articles; I decided I feel more productive writing articles. So I've mostly ignored whatever the policy about original research said; as I wrote above, I think I know what the policy is supposed to mean, & unless I encounter some odd case I have no reason to look at the policy; I suspect this is the case for most Wikipedians who are contributing content. So a group of people can write the most comprehensive, detailed explanation of these classes of sources -- only to have no one make good use of them, because we don't want to take the time to digest such a large slab of text -- & if in doubt, there's always the safety valve of ignore all rules. Or on the other hand, this group can write a less detailed definition that people will read & can apply to their own experiences, & it will be used & actually influence how things are done on Wikipedia. 
::: A last note: I've tried to present the above in a dispassionate, & non-accusatory manner. If I've offended anyone, I apologize. I also apologize for the length of this response. However, I honestly feel that this rewrite is heading in the wrong direction, & that the direction Fullstop writes -- whether or not he did so in good faith -- a simpler, back-to-the-basics definition, is the right one. And if my comments are not deemed as useful, I'll be happy to leave & return to working on content. -- llywrch 05:43, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that "outside view". As someone who has long argued for a major simplification, in which I see the classification of sources as an unnecessary obfustication of the basic policy of NOR I strongly agree with your concern. The issue is how do we get from here to something more obvious and streamlined which does not go down a detailed rabbit hole. The long discussions were about saying that policy based on classification of sources was doomed to be unacceptable when what we were asking for could be summed up as stick to the sources. To attempt a compromise, those in favour of simplification have tried to move slowly, but the result is that we seem to have satisfied nobody - the simplication has not been achieved and the obstructionists for change claim any change is too much yet the proposed change is too small to be worthwhile. The key phrase of FullStop, which there is good consensus amongst the advocates of change is If something can be original research "regardless of the type of source", then there is no need for a classification of "type of source" is there? Spenny 10:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Llywrch, I appreciate that you provide some well-considered comments. However, I am troubled by comments which undermine my good faith in your participation here. For example, you digress about tertiary sources, but the proposal quite clearly leaves out that distinction. That leaves in serious question whether you even looked over the proposal, considering the absence of tertiary sources is plainly obvious. Your comments (as a whole) are a tangent raging against the status quo and anything like it. If you choose to actually participate, you are quite welcome to, but outright ignoring the actual proposal on the table while soapboxing your opinion is unhelpful and a serious disservice to the editors here trying to work out a compromise. Vassyana 15:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  First, my comment about tertiary sources was meant as a joke. Obviously you didn't see the humor, but my intent was simply to diffuse the tension evident here. However, as for your comment about "outright ignoring the actual proposal on the table while soapboxing", my only response is that I'm not posting to stir up trouble -- I'm honestly puzzled that so much effort has gone over some definitions of tangential value to Wikipedia policy. I have read the proposal, but I didn't see anything there that helps to explain why so much effort should be expended on defining them. (Maybe there's more than meets the eye to this whole discussion.) As I wrote above, if the best thing I can do at this point is to bow out -- I will. -- llywrch 22:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please don't let my response discourage you from participating in the discussion. I thought the comment about tertiary sources was a bit flippant (in the lighthearted sense), but at the same time the proposal doesn't use tertiary sources. In combination with the fact that your post was more a statement against the existance of anything but a very simplistic version of the section (and a few other aspects of the post), it seemed like you weren't addressing the proposal or discussion at hand. I apologize for my lack of good faith. I simply should have asked for clarification. On that note, is the proposal better or worse (or just about the same mess :-P) as the current section? (Also, you've obviously put a lot of thought into this topic and I'd encourage you to stick around to help us further refine the section, whether or not this proposal succeeds.) Vassyana 23:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Responding to a portion of your post, a lot of people believe primary sources are more likely to be misused for original research. For example, in topics related to Christianity it is generally (perceived to be) more likely that Bible quotations will be used inappropriately in relation to NOR, than a theologian's book describing the meaning and correlation of various biblical verses. Another problem is the (perceived) inherent original research in using some primary sources directly. This is particularly true of historical sources lacking the editorial oversight and/or modern credentialing generally required of reliable sources. For example, Caesar's Gallic War is widely considered a golden example of ancient reporting, but is also considered a masterpiece of propaganda and known to contain inaccurate hearsay. Without relying upon a reputable scholar to determine which parts are reliable, and to what extant, direct use of that primary source is almost unavoidably original research. (And that's a reputable example of ancient sources.) Just a couple of examples to illustrate what the problem as many see it is with such sources. Vassyana 23:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

text: No problem! We all have lives. :) I don't think anyone is advocating, or has advocated, that we should never draw upon primary sources. The proposal itself moves to some degree in the opposite direction, identifying more clearly instances where the use of primary sources is accepted. (For example, noting the broad consensus for the use of census data and interviews. As another example, making it clear that "analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims" contained within primary sources are acceptable when explicitly attributed in-text to the source.) As far as notability, I believe you are conflating third-party/independent with secondary. There is some overlap, but they are distinct from each other. For example, the commentary and interpretive analysis of the Tanakh in the Christian New Testament, or of the New Testament in the Koran, are certainly third-party, but are still treated as primary sources. (There would be additional concerns of reliability, but it's just an example to address the conflation of independent and secondary.) Just a side response, Tertullian is unlikely to be accepted as a secondary source by most editors, and in most of the relevant fields (anthropology, history, etc) he is a primary source (and treated as such under the proposed draft). On your response about the Gallic Wars, that approach would be perfectly acceptable under the proposal. (If you believe otherwise, please let me know the what language gives the opposite impression, so it can be repaired.) No need to apologize for the length. You're responding directly to the discussion and your post is plainly well-thought. Vassyana 23:35, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arbitrary section break 

message: There are a number of editors on both extremes of almost literally all or nothing. On the "all" side, there are a few editors who object to any significant change from the current language. On the "nothing" side, there are a few editors who object to any change short of an extreme simplification or complete removal of source discussion from NOR. I believe both extremes honestly have the best interests of Wikipedia at heart. 
Those trying to preserve the section are not trying to wikilawyer the place to death and those opposed to the section are not out to dismantle core policy. However, an all or nothing approach is not helpful, and I would even say it's contrary to the fundamentals of the wiki. 
Consensus isn't built with a "my way or the highway" approach. Most often, it's built with compromise and incremental change. This policy has been highly controversial and debate has raged for months. This policy has even been repeatedly protected over the dispute, for periods that would be considered troubling for mainspace articles, let alone core policy. 
If you're here to point out flaws and work with us to address them and improve, by all means, you are most welcome. If you're here to tell us it's your way or the highway, I'd venture to say you need to reexamine your approach and decide whether or not Wikipedia as a whole is a suitable place for you. Consensus is fundamental to the wiki and it does not arise among entrenched parties unwilling to compromise or work together in an intelligent and civil fashion. 
A broad swath of editors have joined together in this discussion and even in supporting the draft as a positive change to one degree or another. Those editors range from those who have vigorously defended the current policy to those who have vigorously opposed the disputed section. The individual editors here and the community as a whole are under no obligation to entertain those holding extreme positions in discussions, even as we do our best to form some compromise between them. Similarly, we are only obligated to engage and consider those participating in productive discussion and consensus building. </end rant> Vassyana 08:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consensus and compromise 

message: I've wondered for a while why this section is needed. It's bloated and it's not actually dispensing policy. Well, in part it dispenses policy through the bullet lists. But this makes the page positively confusing: was this policy or is this policy? Can we take out the bullets that we need and scrap the remainder (or perhaps move it to a sub essay page)? Marskell 15:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins of this policy 

message: User:Dave souza has introduced an edit and comments suggesting that even if a primary source contains its own interpretation of facts, an editor still must cite to yet another source (a secondary source this time) for a second interpretation of those facts. Do we really need to require two reliable sources on any given point in an article? If so, what's the rationale, and what does it have to do with original research? COGDEN 17:24, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To clarify, my edit "Undid revision 171795309 by COGDEN" which had the summary "Okay. Instead of "another," though, what about "a", since the primary source could contain its own interpretation." This introduced a conflict with the next sentence which stated, "To the extent that an article or particular part of an article relies on a primary source, that part of the article should... make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims, unless such claims are verifiable from another source." That complies with the requirement to base sections on third party sources, and to avoid SYN any interpretation by the primary source should be stated as a fact, as in "X interprets the data in this way". However, I note that an anon has now reverted back to the Revision as of 17:45, 15 November 2007 by Philip Baird Shearer (rv changes by COGDEN as they are more than minor changes. Please discuss it further on the talk page) .. dave souza, talk 21:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Third party sources" does not mean what I think you think it means. It means non-self-published sources. That issue came up at WP:RS and that was our resolution. It does not mean that you can't use an interpretive primary source without backing it up with a separate secondary source. It's not original research to only use one reliable source instead of two. That's not the policy, and if that's how it's going to be interpreted, we need to revert the the language to that effect. COGDEN 23:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Somehow I think the point is being missed here. •Jim62sch• 18:51, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Re this edit:     This could be misinterpreted, since some people consider most scientific articles to be primary sources, and they usually contain interpretations of their own results.  I suggest the following wording:  rather than "must be verifiable" or "requires another source for that interpretation", I suggest "must be attributable to a reliable source".  Rather than "unless such claims are verifiable" or "unless such claims are verifiable from another source", I suggest "unless such claims are attributable to a reliable source."  Rather than "conclusions that are not verifiable" or "conclusions that are not verifiable from either the sources themselves or from other sources," I suggest "conclusions that are not found in either the sources themselves or other sources".  Or it could be even stronger with "stated" rather than "found". The trouble with "verifiable" in this context is that it could be taken to mean that a person looking at the primary material would draw this conclusion, whereas what I think we want to say in these sentences is that the source should actually state the conclusion or interpretation.  (elsewhere, it's clarified that in certain circumstances, conclusions based on very simple logic or straightforward arithmetic are allowed.  Or at least it used to be.  Where is that?) --Coppertwig (talk) 03:58, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do interpretive primary reliable sources need to be verified by a second interpretive reliable source? 

message: I am seeking clarification on the section entitled "Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position". Specifically, I've seen some people arguing that this prohibits a "synthesis" of published information even if it doesn't advance a position, or advances a wholly uncontroversial one. In my opinion, collecting information from a variety of sources in ways that may have never been published before is one of the things that makes Wikipedia a great resource, and as long as doing so isn't used to promote a particular point-of-view or pet theory, I see nothing wrong with it. Any comments? Can anyone think of a way to make this section clearer to address these concerns? DHowell 23:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Synthesizing sources is how we write an encyclopedia article. anything other than that, is just assembling an indiscriminate list. Synthesis should be interpreted as "synthesis that amounts to original research" as the development of a new position on contested matter, or a new correlation of previously uncorrelated disparate items. DGG (talk) 23:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with this, up to "a new correlation of previously uncorrelated disparate items." If such a correlation isn't serving to advance a potentially controversial position, should this be prohibited? Why? DHowell 00:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, if the correlation was disputed, you'd be obliged to provide sources that attest to the correlation itself.  But bringing together any form of material into a single article is just the basics of encyclopedia writing.--Father Goose 02:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I have a problem with this line of reasoning.  The whole point to WP:NOR is that wikipedia is not the original publisher for the ideas and thoughts of our editors.  Wikipedia articles are not the place to correlate previously uncorreleted disperate items, even when doing so is not controvercial.  That should be done elsewhere, published in an appropriate reliable source... once it is, then we can discuss what that source has to say.  Blueboar 15:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why would you seek to ban things which by definition no one finds problematic?  Don't write a rule where there isn't a problem.---- Father Goose (talk) 18:18, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well put. It is a fallacy to assume that knowledge exists in a pre-existing form that we can simply report on. There is no description without interpretation and synthesis. The question is distinguishing between acceptable and unacceptable synthesis. -- Phil Sandifer (talk) 18:31, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Incidentally, the current synthesis example looks to me as if the main problem it has is that it is opinion. An opinion that might be reasonable given the two sources, or any on academic plagiarism, but the opinion is the only relevant problem. John Nevard (talk) 04:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification of "''Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position''"