Talk:Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy/Archive 20

message: It's ridiculous that the article starts by stating that the drawings depict Muhammad. Some of them do, not all. That's a kind of misunderstating that has caused much wrongdoing and false debate all over the world, firstly in the world without the freeedom of press. Not that it would've helped a lot telling the truth. But actually, two of the cartoons mock the whole editorial for doing PR for the Danish author whose book no one would illustrate un-anomymously (thus starting the debate). Another one has a Danish/Arab-looking schoolboy sticking his tongue out, showing the writing on a blackboard, stating that the journalists at JP are "reactionary provocateurs". JP may be one of the most critical towards islam, in Denmark, nevertheless they allow space for being mocked in their editorial! I'd like to see something similar on Fox News or the likes of them.
:JP did not know what the writing on the blackboard meant. It was mentioned here for a while, but it was later left out as a peculiarity out of scoope. It is still in the Danish version.  And if you ask me, Fox News is doing a fine job at parodizing a news outlet every single day! MX44 23:19, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Stating more prominently that only some of the drawings depicts Muhammad, could help increase the sanity level of the debate.  MX44 23:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed. But since it is unclear which ones represent Muhammed, leave any numbers out.DanielDemaret 08:49, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What the drawings actually depict 

message: It is getting increasingly hard for people who work on the text, in order to get it to represent a fair and balanced view, to find each other in this mess of opinions about what kind of illustrations might or might not be offensive. There are other forums for this kind of discussion. All you guys do is vandalizing the discussion. Is that what you want? MX44 04:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if MX had removed part of the talk, which you could have checked by looking at history and found out that he didn't, he'd have been in the right to do so. Off-topic discussions have no place on this page. Kyaa the Catlord 13:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Off Topic Jihad must go 

message: This article needs to link to the articles on Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh.  I added these under comparable incidents, but another user deleted the links.  These murders provide critical background to the context in which freedom of expression is understood.  Can we agree that these ought to be in the article?
:It's not directly related. I don't think it should be included in this article - in the greater scope of things - Islamic/West Frictions - they are relevant - but not to the subject of this article. Also, the PT and TVG "incidents" were murders due to individuals - not boycotting of milk by Islamic nations as is the case here - and as such it would be wrong to equate them. Celcius (Talk)  Wiki be With us! 12:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Van Gogh's murder is directly related to the freedom of expression context. One of the artists approached by Kare Bluitgen gave this murder as a reason for not illustrating the book. But I think this would need to be explained if we did include a link to the Theo van Gogh article. -- Avenue 15:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just realised that this is explained already in the Debate about self-censorship section of the article, and there is a link to the Theo van Gogh article there. -- Avenue 15:58, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Fair enough - it depends on in which context the links are provided. I can see the justification. Celcius (Talk)  Wiki be With us! 00:51, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theo van Gogh and Pim Fortuyn 

message: A friend just sent me this. http://face-of-muhammed.blogspot.com/
It seems that others are doing the kind of map being done here too. Submitting it here for comparison to our map. There may be more relevant info in this blog, even. :) DanielDemaret 12:37, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not very NPOV to divide the world into "camps" like that - it's very "you are either with us or against us" type of thing - which will inevitably rely on subjective opinion not suitable for a NPOV encyclopedia. Celcius (Talk)  Wiki be With us! 12:46, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That was not the original purpose of the map, but if many interpret it that way, it sadly becomes a very valid point. Is there any chance that one might connect the picture closely to editorial text to show the purpose and to save the intention of what we are trying to show that way? DanielDemaret 15:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text:  Nobody was planning any such thing, of course. What a singularly strange notion. Again, this was a note to compare their map with "our own" map. And last I read the recommendations, which was two days ago, blogs could indeed be accepted under special circumstances.
This is copied from the link you brought up, "...and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources. Exceptions may be when a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material. In some cases, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as their work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications.", hoping that page has not been the victim of any edit wars.
DanielDemaret 20:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alt Map

message: A few more deaths and we can rename this page to Cartoon War and add the war infobox! I hope not.--TheFEARgod 15:15, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I read somewhere that the media have been so rash to report all the unrest caused by the cartoons, that they ignore all of the other current violence in the islamic world (Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine etc.). Food for thought, anyway. 惑乱 分からん 19:53, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cartoon War 

message: NPOV part: On BBCWorld today, on a program called "your voice" or something to that effect,
Prince Hassan of Jordan made some interesting remarks.
http://i-cias.com/e.o/hassan_jordan.htm
If memory serves, he mentioned that he descended from the prophet, and that the issue we are discussing here, if my memory serves, was more an issue internal to Islam than one between Islam and the west. He suggested an internal dialogue, perhaps in Mekka to have a dialogue on matters.
His views seemed to suggest that the violent reactions were totally out of proportion, and no violence should have occured.
MyPOV part: Islam talking with one voice? A consensus of brothers, instead of masses being manipulated by a few totalitarian regimes, or by a few in extremists organisations into senseless violence? I am an incurable optimist, but if consensus works for wikipedia, perhaps there will be more common ground between freedom of expression and Islam in such a future :)DanielDemaret 20:47, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Prince Hassan of Jordan BBCworld today

message: Kofi Annan was interviewed by the Danish TV channel DR today regarding the cartoons and the conflict. The 15-minute interview is available from DR Nyheder, deep link here (Windows Media format). There is an introduction in Danish, but the interview itself is of course in English. — Peter L <talk|contribs> 21:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kofi Annan interview on DR 

message: Frage: Haben Sie die gewalttätigen Ausschreitungen überrascht? 
Grass: Wir leben in einer Zeit, in der einer Gewalttat die nächste folgt. Die erste ist die durch den Westen gewesen, die Invasion des Irak. Heute wissen wir, daß damit internationales Recht gebrochen wurde; der Krieg wurde allein auf Grundlage von Bushs fundamentalistischen Argumenten geführt, daß es ein Kampf zwischen dem Guten und dem Bösen sei. Was wir jetzt sehen, ist die fundamentalistische Antwort auf eine fundamentalistische Tat. Mitnichten findet hier ein Kampf der Kulturen statt - vielmehr ist es eine Auseinandersetzung zwischen zwei Un-Kulturen. 
 from die welt --Chaos 21:46, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is English Wikipedia. And the above from Günter Grass is hardly original. Of marginally more interest is his comparison of the cartoons to the sort of anti-semitic thing that would appear in der Stürmer. Rd232 talk 00:59, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grass Interview in Spanish El Pais 

message: Freedom of speech and Israeli ambassador .. isn,t that more relevant to our case , Enjoy --Chaos 22:02, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not entirely sure what you're alluding to. Could you elaborate on this? Are you making a case for freedom of expression for artists, or an ad nauseum hypocracy argument? --Tokachu 22:46, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Snow White and The Madness of Truth]] 

message: This page (the talk page) needs to be archived real bad. My computer is almost crashing trying to load this page. AucamanTalk 03:10, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, this is 365 KB long, we need to split it into three parts. --Terence Ong 03:15, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bad news

message: Why is there a prominent link in that pink box to "Anders Fogh Rasmussen Cartoons" ? I think it has no business being there, because these Rasmussen cartoons are nothing more that a footnote in the larger context at hand here. This box is included from somewhere, but I can't figure it out. I also don't like the fact that the dossier is called "Akkari Dossier". Akkari is prominent mostly because he speaks Danish and English fluently, wheras Abu Laban and Sheik Hulayel don't. Akkari didn't pen the dossier. A better name would be "Imams' dossier" or so. Azate 00:28, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is not a clearing house for private internet cartoon contests. Azate 02:39, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This pink box in  the "Overview" section 

message: I was looking for some references and found that the volkskrant already reprinted 3 cartoons on October 29. I think we slowely have to change the sentence about Januari 2006 to the whole period as there was already stuff going on. There was a response to the october reprint that I still have to read (I am Dutch) --KimvdLinde 04:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just found out that Elsevier did it already 8 days earlier..... --KimvdLinde 05:12, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This fits in together with el-Fagrs publication about the same time, as a discussion happening in media. MX44 09:01, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elsevier Oct 21, De volkskrant, Oct 29, both the Neherlands reprinted cartoons  

message: This Israeli organization has decided to respond to the Iran antisemitic cartoon contest with their own anti-semitic cartoon contest.  Seems to me like this is an example of the right way to respond to something intended to anger you.
http://www.boomka.org/
Richard 129.244.23.13 15:17, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wonderful, hysterical. I want to see a showdown between the Iranian cartoons and the Israeli cartoons. Is the Israeli organization showing cartoons already? Where? Babajobu 15:58, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Reminds me how folks in the U.S. of black African ethnic origin tend to allow fellow members of their ethnicity refer to each other with a certain racial slur. Netscott 16:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. If the Israeli campaign recieves much notoriety it may very well tend to delfate Iran's own campaign. Babajobu, there appear to be three previously published cartoons already showing on the boomka site.. Netscott 16:27, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: There are actually people resonding to the article saying that apparently "this isn't the way to do things".  Like throwing rocks, and rioting is :p  It'd all be well and good if everyone could just chill out, there's not a single religion in the world that hasn't been made fun of at one time or another.  What makes them think they're so special? -Moocats 18:41, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: the protests are a sign of weakness of the Islamic world; people feel bullied and are fed up with being the "2nd World". Fascism always arises when people feel inferior and abused. They are, of course, also a sign of strength of the fundamentalists. The first casualty of Islamism is Islam. The Israeli reaction is hilarious; the best approach when facing angry insulted Muslims is to show that you can laugh at yourself, too, rather than letting them know you think they are lame or childish. dab (ᛏ) 19:10, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Anyone know off-hand if Hamshari (in Wikinews) is already linked from any of the Wikipedia pages about this controversy? If so then we should definitely add the Israeli's site. Netscott 19:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've started a WikiNews entry about this group's announcement... we'll see if it gets picked up. Netscott 19:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israelis have the right idea 

message: Does anybody have any source for the al Fagr article besides the Egyptian blogger? The edition in question (#21, October 17, 2005) is offline, and I can find no other source anywhere I look.
Thanks,
Andy.
60.240.106.174 15:21, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Jyllands-Posten themselves reprinted an article by The Copenhagen Post but apparently The Post used blogger EgyptianSandMonkey as their source. That said, by now El Fagr would no doubt have emphatically denied having printed it if they never did. Netscott 16:07, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  According to this article from TV2, a Denmark news station, the Danish Ambassador to Egypt confirmed the story.  I also seem to remember someone posting an arabic language site where El Fagr confirmed they had published the cartoons, I'll see if I can find the link. Richard 129.244.23.132 18:13, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nevermind, it got some facts wrong and doesn't seem terribly reliable. Richard 129.244.23.132 18:20, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Andy you should know that the El Fagr story was seperately confirmed both by Freedom for Egyptians and EgyptianSandMonkey. Netscott 07:46, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Netscott, I've looked at both. FfE credits 'Gateway Pundit' ("BTW, it is not my idea to bring the details of this Egyptian paper, it is Gateway Pundit’s"); 'Gateway Pundit' says "Freedom for Egyptians has the details" (and nothing more); ESM credits FfE ("Freedom For Egyptians reminded me why the cartoons looked so familiar to me"). In brief, this story has not been separately and independently confirmed by both FfE and ESM. Andy. 60.240.106.174 12:00, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is the website of El Fagr: http://www.elfagr.org/ The page that contained the image was http://www.elfagr.org/ed_21.html (issue 21 of the paper). I've seen it, but I failed to copy it. It was removed shortly after Wikipedia started linking to it. --Valentinian 12:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Andy, It's true that EgyptianSandMonkey was spurred on by Freedom for Egyptians but according to his site he scanned his own copy of the paper in question. I believe that EgyptianSandMonkey was to first to have a scan up from the edition in question. Netscott 14:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

text:  Here Is a short article from Jyllands-Posten on the confirmation by the ambassador.  If memory serves, the scans uses by Sandmonkey and FfE were markedly different.  Several blogs and news agencies commented, but I'm at a loss as to why none of the major news orgs have done a more thorough investigation of the El Fagr angle. Richard 129.244.128.134 22:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Veracity of El Fagr article? 

message: Hi all, the map has been updated and such but still more work needs to be done, again it is not done yet. I need help from anyone who is willing to help make or compile an article about the number of protestors in all the countries. If anyone is willing to, it would be a great help to me. Thanks. Also, I have used a new color scheme and I have been working with WAS 4.250 to make it understandable to the color-blind. One more thing, I didn't put it in the legend but the Danish flag means countries that have boycotted Danish goods. I know I'm missing some so please help me with a table/list. Hitokirishinji 15:54, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You might want to add Mexico and Macedonia to the map of reprint countries. --KimvdLinde 18:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: There have been some protests in Germany, too. -- 129.13.186.1 19:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I suggest dots marking the location of the protests (Paris, London, etc.) -- painting France and Britain party per bend sinister seems a bit much. Likewise, painting the entire subcontinent of India yellow gives a rather misleading image. I suppose you can make the protest-dots large enough to be well visible, and end up with a fairer geographical representation. You can still paint entire countries the government of which has deposited formal protests or something. dab (ᛏ) 22:04, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As much as I would like to do that, certain countries including Denmark and Palestine are so small on the map that a dot to represent the cities which had protests would be incredibly hard to see and if I made them large, they would encompass more than the country itself does. The only way to get around this would be to find a larger blank map. Also, at the moment, I don't have a list of every protest in every country and every city. Unfortunately, I don't have all day to commit to this which is why I am asking if anyone would like to work with me on this by helping me compile such a list. As deciving as painting an entire contient is, it is the same almost about the newspapers. The UK only had one newspaper print 1 cartoon but nonetheless it counts as "published". If anyone can come up with a larger map or better system, please let me know. Hitokirishinji 23:26, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I might add that Saudi-Arabia has been boycotting Denmark for 2 years or something already, and demonstrations with 15,000 bussed-in participants in a city that summoned one million to the streets for a spontaneous demonstration against Lebanon isn't really all that great. Therefore, the map says very little about the actual proportions of the demonstrations, since 15,000 in Beirut or whereever is equaled to a few hundred in other places. I would just keep the map centered about where the cartoons were published and where stuff has happened (boycotts, attacks on embassies and so on). Brainman 20:12, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

text: What did you mean by "way to similiar that are far between?" Looks like I will have to update the map and add a new color to the scale. Also, this map has been made color-blind friendly so each color has to be quite distinctive. Considering that some people find the map a little drab, I may consider making a more "stylized" version but I will keep a color-blind friendly version. Once again, if someone wants to find me a bigger version, I could do the cities but also I will need help on compiling where everything has taken place. Hitokirishinji 17:52, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map Update and help needed 

message: My List
*Submission (short film)	 2 November 2004
*The Message (film) 9 March 9 1977
*The Satanic Verses (novel) 14 February 1989
*Snow White and The Madness of Truth (installation)	16 January 2004
*The Last Temptation of Christ (film)	 22 October 1988
*Piss Christ (photo) 18 May 1989
Netscott 02:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, but it still leaves Chief on top, which isn't my intent at all, but neither do I want to self censor reporting references to discussion among Native Americans of mascotts and hate speech in the context of the Danish cartoons. We could find a better article to describe the native American mascott controversy, or write one, which I'm not up to today. PaxTerra 02:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I wouldn't agree about that... unless something significant has happened withint the last 5 years and my recollectoin serves me right I'd say that the whole Native American Mascot issue 'peaked' in the late 90's. Netscott 02:44, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Got not arguments from me if chief  Illinik made an exit from this article. Netscott 03:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Be bold and make changes!!! hehe Netscott 05:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  4 in one swoop?! That's bold! LOL! Netscott 05:26, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well ... The Chief is back at the top, making it all look like a prank :D MX44 05:48, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Reverse chronological order, most recent to least, makes perfect sense. WookMuff 08:16, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 1