Talk:Herschel Grynszpan/Archive 1

message: I wanted to edit the death date category; when I opened the edit page it only presented me with about half of the article. The rest didn't show up; corrupt file? The rest of the edits I have done today have been no problem.--FeanorStar7 15:26, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Problems editing the article

message: In the article:" Grynszpan is the primary character in the oratorio by Michael Tippett, A Child Of Our Time, which Tippett began in 1939."
Interesting how many gay men have found Grynszpan appealing. Has anyone analyzed this..reaction? 
(I'm new to Wikipedia so I'm not sure what 'discussion' means.)
````oldcitycat 5 March 2006
(I have had problems placing these new comments here!)
My main interest here is to instigate serious questioning of Doescher's conclusions. Examples of rumors spread in the Paris gay community appeared in books and articles written before Doescher's revised edition of his book on Kristallnacht. Rumors are not equivalent to evidence.   In general it strikes me that any newly released documents that were used by Doescher should be made available ON THE INTERNET so that they can be examined by the general public. I would like to know whether anyone here agrees. ````oldcitycat (March 5, 2006)
Please register as a user if you want people to respond to your comments. Which conclusions by Doescher are you refering to? Adam 01:08, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I should be more accurate in my description.  While the case never came to trial (due to the German invasion) there exists documentation compiled prior to the case detailing the police investigation of HG's time in Paris, and the events leading up to vom Rath's murder.Mikewelch7 07:44, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: To my awareness, the investigation material contains no information linking GH to EvR.  However, it does contain the testimony of the secretary at the German embassy on the Rue de Lille, who claims that HG asked to speak with an official.  He did not ask to see EvR, and was only brought into his office as the ambassador had left moments earlier (as fate would have it, HG and the ambassador had crossed paths briefly at the gate to the embassy).  So, it is very telling that HG did not request any embassy official by name.  If there had been a link between the two, the encounter would not have happened in such a random way.Mikewelch7 19:39, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I've done a bit of additional research to refresh my memory, and have made an addition to the main page.  I've referenced an article from a scholarly journal that indicates the source of the alledged homosexual link between HG and EvR as HG's defense attorney.  This whole case must be understood as having international ramifications.  After the events of Kristallnacht, there was far more at stake than HG's life:  the fate of European Jewry was in considerable question.  HG's defense attorney was paid for by an international coalition of concerned persons, most particularly the Jewish community in the United States.  HG's lawyer fled Paris during the war, and survived.  He was interviewed after (see the quote I've added to the main article), and indicated that the link between HG and EvR was formulated to both 1)  lessen HG's sentence, and 2) protect Europe's Jews by defusing the Nazi propaganda that sought to position the murder as an act of terrorism by Jews against the Reich.  The article further explains that HG wanted to stick to his original story, that of the oppressed person given no other option aside from his desparate act.Mikewelch7 21:22, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: :Found an interesting item referenced in the collection of the Wiener Library in London:
:991/3 Copy letter from Staatsekretär Leopold Gutterer to Graf Michael Soltikow saying that the relationship between Grynspan and vonn Rath was homosexual and therefore not a political matter. (29 Sep 1953) copy nd  German 
Anyone familiar with this letter?  Could it be the same as below?  Could someone with German translate in approximate this letter? 
:In der Nummer 2 (37) vom April - Juin 1964 brachten Sie einen Bericht des Herrn Lucien Steinberg über den Fall Herschel Grünspan.
:Dankbar wäre ich Ihnen, wenn Sie mir ein Exemplar Ihrer Zeitschrift -nämlich diese Nummer über Grünspan zusenden wollten.
:Schon jetzt möchte ich bemerken, dass Ihr Artikel, der ja auch (wenn auch ohne Namensnennung) mich erwähnt, leider in vielfacher Hinsicht den Tatsachen und den aufgefundenen Urkunden nicht entspricht.
:In 12 Jahren habe ich nicht weniger als 16 dicke Aktenbände angesammelt und aus Archiven aus ganz Europa amtliche Urkunden über den historischen Fall der tödlichen Verwundung des dritten Sekretärs in der deutschen Botschaft Paris, durch Herschel Grünspan vom 7.11.1938, zusammengetragen, eine Bluttat, die für Hitler und Dr. Goebbels der willkommene Vorwand zu der berüchtigten sogenannten "Reichskristallnacht" wurde.
:Es war meine Absicht, als Publizist, der Völkerverhetzung entgegenzutreten und die Öffentlichkeit über die Verteidigung des Grünspan zu unterrichten: Grünspan hat sowohl in Paris, als auch später in Berlin stets betont, dass er keineswegs -wie Dr. Goebbels und wie sein ständiger Bevollmächtigter im Falle Grünspan/vom Rath behauptete,- "vom Weltjudentum als politischer Mörder gedungen sei, angeblich um den ihn gänzlich unbekannten Ernst vom Rath zu ermorden, mit dem angeblichen Ziel, dadurch "die ersten Schüsse des zweiten Weltkrieges abzugeben und mit dem Auftrage des Weltjudentums wissentlich und willentlich mit dieser Bluttat den zweiten Weltkrieg zu entfesseln.
:Ich bin im Besitz der Anklageschrift des berüchtigten Ober-Reichsanwalts Ernst Lautz gegen Herschel Grünspan vom 16.10.1941 -AZ: 8J.393/41g- worin der Oberreichsanwalt Ernst Lautz auf Seite 19 oben schreibt; dass Grünspan sich damit verteidigt habe, 
:"Ernst vom Rath längst gekannt zu haben und von ihm mehrfach homosexuell missbraucht worden zu sein."
:In einer, auf Urkunden gestützten Studie und Synopsis habe ich gegenübergestellt, die Lesart des Dr. Goebbels und die Lesart des Grünspan.
:Es ist nachgewiesene Tatsache, dass die Nazis den Grünspan-Prozess als Schau-Und Monstre-Prozess vom 11.Mai bis 16.Mai 1942 über die Bühne gehen lassen wollten, wobei sie das Weltjudentum auf die Anklagebank setzen wollten, mit dem Vorwand, den Weltkrieg absichtlich entfesselt zu haben, wobei das Weltjudentum auf der Anklagebank durch Herschel Grünspan vertreten werden sollte.
:Es ist weiterhin historische Tatsache, dass der Reichsminister Just durch seinen Stellvertreter, Staatssekretär Schlegelberger, Dr. Goebbels dringend davor gewarnte, diesen Schauprozess vor der Weltöffentlichkeit stattfinden zu lassen, weil Grünspan entschlossen sei, das homosexuelle Tatmotiv vor Rundfunk und Presse zu seiner Verteidigung vorzubringen.
:Sowohl der Staatssekretär Leopold Gutterer vom Reichspropagandaministerium, als auch der Grünspan-Sachbearbeiter des Auswärtigen Amtes, der Gesandte, Dr. Krümmer, haben dringend davor gewarnt, diesen Schauprozess als Theaterprozess ablaufen zu lassen, und schliesslich hat sich auch Dr. Goebbels davon überzeugen lassen, dass der Prozess unmöglich stattfinden dürfe. 
:Der Prozess vom 11.-16.5.1942 wurde daher in der letzten Minute abgesetzt. Mein Streben war es, der Völkervergiftung durch Dr. Goebbels entgegenzuwirken.
:Hochachtungsvoll
:Archives du centre de documentation
:juive contemporaine
17, rue Geoffroy L'Asnier 75004 Paris
Who is this from? Soltikow was the 'journalist' sued by the vom Rath family for the article stating that the shooting of Ernst vom Rath had to do with the homosexual relationship. That libel suit went on until into the 1960's.  The letter explains (one explanation) how it was that Goebbels decided to forget about the fancy trial of Grynszpan that was planned for 1942. Grynszpan admitted to having known Ernst vom Rath for a while and to having had (not so willing on Grynszpan's part)homosexual relations with him. (In the letter::"Ernst vom Rath längst gekannt zu haben und von ihm mehrfach homosexuell missbraucht worden zu sein.") It was considered by outsiders that Grynszpan had been coerced into making this..confession. Of course it might have saved Grynszpan in a Paris trial..but Herschel wanted to be a hero and he had found a German easy to almost kill..(hospitals are good for the rest..) Martin Bormann was the actual boss when it came to the preparations for that fancy trial planned for 1942. There's a lot involved here.oldcitycat 01:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting translation - I had never heard Bormann as the lead for preparing the 'show trial.'  The original of the letter is here:  http://www.falsifikation.ch/grynszpan/wg103.html - the very URL of the website raises interesting questions...I've read descriptions of Leopold Gutterer that describe him as one of Goebbels' top lieutenants Mikewelch7 02:30, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Do you have a title on the new book?  A Google search on author's name yields no hits.  Had the opportunity to visit Paris on business April 2005.  I took a walking tour with all of the addresses in Schwab's book.  I found both of Herschel's residences near the Chateau D'eau region of Paris.  I found the cafe he frequented with his friends - still a cafe, though with a different name.  I found the hotel where he stayed the night before killing EvR - still a hotel, expensive yet seedy, just around the block from the live / work space his family occupied.  I also found the store where he bought the gun - it's now a small walk-in phone card retail outlet.  Then, took the same subway route he took that day to the Rue de Lille (right down the street from the Musee D'Ore).  What I saw was two very different sides of Paris.  HG's neighbohood is (and was, I suppose) a poor, run down immigrant community - then filled with Europe's fleeing Jews - now filled with Northern African immigrants - the same group, perhaps responsible for last year's riot.  The Paris of EvR is an entirely different world - quite, clean and gentile.  The two worlds these men occupied could not be further apart, though closely linked through the Paris metro.  It's hard for me to imagine an easy scenario where the two could have met.  I think too of the risks they would have taken.  HG was a 'clandestine' - an illegal immigrant in France - his risks would have been very high.  EvR was a member of a closely watched foreign delegation - imagine the results if he was caught consorting with an illegal alien - and a member of a race detested by his homeland.  This story is so interesting - every time I think I have it solved, some new evidence surfaces - would love to unearth some new material in the case...Mikewelch7 03:53, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

text: LOL!  So, you're saying I should visit more interesting areas of Paris next time?  To answer you assumption, I'll put it this way:  I'm 33, male, single, and live in San Francisco...On a more serious note, I submitted Freedom of Information Act requests today with the U.S. State Department and FBI to obtain all information available on the EvR assassination and subsequent events.  I'll post my findings at this site, and will determine if any new information comes from it that should be added to the main article.  I've got to believe the FDR government was watching these events very carefully...Mikewelch7 07:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Gutterer / Soltikow Link?

message: Does anyone have information points on the following NY Times article?  http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/nytimes/91572622.html?did=91572622&FMT=ABS&FMTS=AI&date=Apr+25%2C+1939&author=Special+Cable+to+THE+NEW+YORK+TIMES.&pub=New+York+Times++(1857-Current+file)&desc=AMERICAN+COMPLETES+POLICE+STUDY+ABROAD
:AMERICAN COMPLETES POLICE STUDY ABROAD; Edward Sykes of New York Talks With Grynszpan in Prison
:PARIS, April 24.--Edward Sykes, a New York banker, Honorary Deputy Police Commissioner of New York City, special Deputy Police Commissioner of New York State and a member of many other police bodies, will sail for New York on the Queen Mary May 3 after study
 
I recall reading it using a microfilm machine a really long time ago (ca. 1978). I think Sykes reported that Grynszpan was being treated well. (Fresnes..juvenile prison) There really was a lot of interest in Grynszpan. Dorothy Thompson, Quentin Reynolds and others had made him into a kind of folk hero. The boy who fought back. oldcitycat 05:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NY Times Article on HG - Sykes Police Study / HG Interview

message: To those interested, take a look at his newly created entry, and provide any additional information you deem relevant.  Thank you.  Mikewelch7 23:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Related Interest:  Vincent de Moro-Giafferi Entry Created

message: I have now found Schwab's book (on a street stall in the Bebelplatz in Berlin!) and will rewrite this article when I get time. Adam 23:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite

message: In their Book,
* Imonti, F and M -  Violent Justice Prometheus Books, New York 1994 ISBN: 0879759259 p.291
They write: "Next, near the end of the war, Grynszpan appeared before a tribunal in Hanover.  He was sentenced to be executed on May 8, 1945. On may 7, Germany surrended."
Can anyone else find details of this tribunal? Mike33 10:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Violent Justice

message: Substituted at 14:57, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: In a public statement, Goebbels interpreted the violence of Kristallnacht, which had already started, as a reaction to Grynszpan's action, which is apparently how Grynszpan himself understood it. 
The notion promoted in the "Dire Consequences" section of the article, that it was all planned in advance, seems a rather crazy conspiracy theory. Joseph Goebbels was not pulling Grynszpan's puppet strings to make him do what he did. Therefore the assassination of E. vom Rath could not be a "pretext." The violence that followed could not have been planned except by somebody who knew what Grynszpan was going to do. 
The fact that several writers after the fact have given support to that crazy conspiracy theory does not make it less crazy.
HaddingtheGreat (talk) 23:13, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: "Dire Consequences"

message: Out of curiosity, how come articles from Wikipedia with disputed sections and sources like this one are in Citizendium? Since there is obviously a conflict going on between Wikipedia and this new competitor..shouldn't Citizendium have to indicate which sections and sources are disputed? oldcitycat (talk) 20:20, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The copyright of German photos from the Nazi era was confusingly interpreted as public domain at some point in wikipedia history, that's not the case now . So unless you know that the photographer has been dead for 70 years - then it's probably not worth the effort - the article is pretty well illustrated with images of dubious copyright status anyway.--Peta 03:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Under French copyright law, it's 70 years after the death of the author too. As for capital punishment - they had it as late as 77 - and cut peoples heads off in public til 39, its not inconcievable that they punished minors in that way too. Google isn't very helpful in confirming this though.--Peta 11:20, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Victim of the Holocaust ? 

message: can someone answer? just curious.
It's a common German-Jewish name. Adam 07:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: any relation to [[Alan Greenspan]]?

message: A friend at the Hoovers Institute expert in WWII-era Poland provides the following details based on his look into archived documents:
'Dear Michael,
I found time to search more for materials on Grynszpan.
I hoped to find some reference to 1938 events  in the papers of  the Polish Consulate in Lille,
which was heavily infiltrated with the Polish security agents who spied on socialists and communists
recruited to fight in the Spanish civil war.
There is quite a lot about Jewish political groups but nothing on the subject we are interested in.
Next collection I looked at, was the Polish Embassy in Paris. Surprisingly the year 1938 is
not well represented there. For some reason documents from that year
were withdrawn or lost. There is however exchange of correspondence (2 telegrams) between Polish
ambassadors to Germany and France on November 8-9 in which they tried to confirm
Grynszpan's identity.
Ambassador Lipski - from Berlin asked Lukasiewicz in Paris
to confirm Grynszpan's place and date of birth and how long he resided in Germany.
Lukasiewicz writes from Paris on November 9:
"Herszel Ferbel Grynszpan born in Hannover March 28,  1921, received Polish passport on August 7, 1937
for the period of 6 months. Passport was issued after the following documents were submitted:
 
a/ "declaration de perte from May 14, 1937 of the passport issued by the Consulate in Hamburg
(most likely G. arrived illegally)" (ZS: since the telegram was sent on November 9, 1938, they suggest that
Grynszpan wasn't allowed to travel on it after 6 months)
 
b/ birth certificate
c/ confirmation of his fathers citizenship received from Radomsko (ZS: a town in central Poland)
 
"Passport doesn't have any additional annotations and it wasn't extended".
That's all there is. Not much but it confirms that what we already knew.
let me know if it makes sense. I can send you a copy of these two documents which are in Polish.
Al the best,
Zbyszek
PS. After Poland regained it's independence in 1918 people who were born before that date on what
was earlier Austria and  Prussia could apply for Polish citizenship. Consuls from different parts of Europe
complained that they were forced to issue documents based on poor evidence. It all got much, much more
complicated after the anschluss of Austria when hundreds of thousands of  those with birth certificates
issued by Catholic parishes (the only source then for both Christians and Jews) showed up on the steps of Polish diplomatic
representations. Many of them traveled across Europe looking for a place to settle down.
But that is another story. Mikewelch7 16:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mmmmmmm.... I just gave you a mea culpa on your talk page.  I do hope that if i could find sources for the rubbish that guy expressed (there are plenty of nazi apologists who write million selling books), that it wouldn't be able to sit alongside? Herschel was no saint and made his living as best he could. Whether that was as a rent boy or an international agent for the jewish congress or just a kid finding a bite to eat we will never really know. Conjecture is just that.  Mike33 06:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment from Hoovers Institute Archive on Grynszpan

message: "He was probably executed some time in 1944 or 1945."
Is this a reasonable assumption? There is no evidence of what happened to him. Another assumption is that he was killed in Allied bombing. The city ranks second, behind Dresden, as the most bombed city by Allied bombers. Also, he could have been taken by the Soviets and sent to a Gulag. Lots of possibilities. Maybe that line should be removed. Thoughts? Jtpaladin 01:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree the article shouldn't speculate and my personal opinion is that he probably was executed but my thoughts are mere original research at best, as is the speculation that he was executed. Considering that he really did shoot the German official and that he might still be prosecuted for this crime, wouldn't it seem possible that he would simply want to disappear if he survived the war? Again, mere speculation but so his his presumed death between 1944 and 1945. "Probably" is not accurate in the least because it's making an assumption not based on fact and WP:VERIFY. Jtpaladin 20:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, the first line in the article states, "Herschel Feibel Grynszpan (born March 28, 1921, died between 1943 and 1945) was a political assassin and victim of the Holocaust." That line makes an emphatic declaration that he died between 1943 and 1945. That is not a verifiable statement and should be changed to "date of death unknown". Additionally, we don't know that he was a victim of the Holocaust. We can't verify that statement either. About 6 months have passed since I raised this question and no one other than you has commented on this issue. Can we come to some verifiable agreement on this matter? Thank you. Jtpaladin 14:09, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: After 8 months of waiting for a Reliable Source WP:RS to verify Mr. Grynszpan's date of death and cause of death, I'm making the appropriate change in order to adhere to WP's rules. Jtpaladin 19:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Once again, someone added OR as to his death and has now been removed. Please post verifiable info not guesses. Jtpaladin (talk) 07:28, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death? 

message: Oldcitycat, posting your opinions and comments into the article itself is vandalism. If you do it again I will ask to have you blocked. Adam 03:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: Adam asked in (Archive 1)Did the French authorities investigate whether there was a homosexual connection btween HG and vom Rath? We r going to know the response in december 2008 when the police files will be open. The file include only 50 pages . -- CloCloB  BlaBla15:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oooops,sorry its december 2038 :-( but i think the next gvt. will change the law about archives. We need to wait for 3 or 5 years probably .--' CloCloB  BlaBla 11:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archives 

message: I think there may be unique cause to debate the use of the term "victem" here as he was a willing assasin. This is in no way to say that Wikipedia, myself or any other editor believes Mr Grynszpan or anyone else of Jewish decent who died in the Holocaust was not a victem, but rather that victem might not correct convey a his life. Rotovia (talk) 07:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Use of word "victim"

message: I have removed the following paragraph </br>
“Trotsky on Grynszpan </br>
Grynszpan was the subject of a fairly well known article by Leon Trotsky: "For Grynszpan: Against Fascist Pogrom Gangs and Stalinist Scoundrels".  Trotsky did not condone Grynszpan's tactics but he respected his militancy. (Read the full text of the article.)”</br>
Considering Trotsky was long dead by this time I find it highly unlikely he wrote this article, let alone a “fairly well known” one.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jfry3 (talk • contribs) 17:07, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Leon Trotsky

message: The version included by User:212.121.210.45, although clumsily edited, appear to be the more accurate, since they are the ones related by Grynszpan pere at the Eichmann Trial.  However, in the interests of brevity, the current version is preferable.
User:Jayjg may profit from referring to sources, rather than her own opinion. 194.70.181.1 (talk) 09:14, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Events at Zbaszyn 

message: In case there is anyone who believes that to be a mistake of some kind, vom in German is a standard contraction of von dem.
So there is in fact a normal-looking von involved.
Varlaam (talk) 02:33, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vom, not von 

message: I just deleted the line about Grynszpan being active in Tsukunft. I just checked a couple of books, and they say nothing about Grynszpan being active in Tsukunft or any other political party. I'm rather suspicious of that claim. To the extent Grynszpan had political opinions, he seems to have been a Zionist, which makes the claim that he was active with the Bundists more than a little strange. Also, the claim that Grynszpan was active in Jewish circles seems questionable; everything I always read says that Grynszpan was really living on the margins of French life. If someone can find a reliable source saying otherwise, please put this material back in. --A.S. Brown (talk) 03:03, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Tsukunft

message: The German citizenship law was invented in 1913 and defines German citizens as the citizens of one of the states of Germany (until 1913 there was no "German" citizenship, only a cititzenship of Prussia, Bavaria, Hamburg etc.). It does not refer to any kind of German "blood" or excludes Jews from being a German citizen. Grynspan wasn't a German citizen because his parents were foreigners. This is a very simple principle and not specifically German. 62.155.205.76 (talk) 07:17, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  German Citizenship