Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth/archive6

message: ===Roll call: October – Mid-November===
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# A lot of 'To dos', but regretably not so much of a progress.  I will try to strike one off my list before October ends. —Mirlen 00:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Community

message: Sign your name below and comments are optional.
# A lot of 'To dos', but regretably not so much of a progress.  I will try to strike one off my list before October ends. —Mirlen 00:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Roll call: October &ndash; Mid-November

message: The article assessment bot has created some nice pages for us (after we created some manually to start the process). Now we need to get busy assessing the articles! Also, I think articles are added on the basis of whether they have the Wikiproject template on the talk page, so if you spot any articles without those, please add the template. Anyway, the nice pages I'm referring to are here, here, and here. That last one shows only 7 of 1023 articles have been assessed (though some of those 1023 articles might be redirects that still have templates on their talk pages). The activity of people adding and changing assessments can be seen here. Carcharoth 10:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are we going to create critrea for the quality and importance scale, use the standard Wikipedia assessment, or just go by our own judgement? --Ted87 01:09, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By Wikipedia assessment, but if there is a need, we will make the criteria for quality and importance scale more specialized for Tolkien articles.  For WP:Me assessment, click here. —Mirlen 02:15, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More article assessment stuff 

message: The Lord of the Rings is on the Main Page. If someone had remembered to keep an eye on the featured article queue for the main page, we might have been a bit more prepared! Please can everyone keep an eye on the article over the next 24 hours or so, as there will be a lot of vandalism, and also some good edits. Let's try and keep the article looking good. Carcharoth 02:10, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article got a lot of exposure. Some discussion about this is here. Carcharoth 09:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[The Lord of the Rings]] on [[Main Page]]!! 

message: User:201 is a confirmed sockpuppet of a blocked user. All of his edits are subject to reversion." CovenantD 19:53, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Following that message, the two sections started by User:201 have been removed - see page version here for full details of the sections. The infobox has been retained, but the image has been removed (it is copyrighted and only allowed as fair use on the Tolkien article). The navbox discussion wasn't going anywhere either, though I'd appreciate if someone could check to see what else was changed. Carcharoth 21:55, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sections removed

message: Just so you guys know, I'm working on adding your  to all the articles found in :Category:Middle-earth using AWB because they are all within your scope. Also :Category:Tolkien. Cbrown1023 15:10, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the  tag to 523 articles. I also created the classes Cat and Template on the template per a request by another user. Your formating is weird, so you have to edit it so that it doesn't ask for importance. Cbrown1023 02:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Cbrown1023.   I don't know too much about the automatic categorizing, so I can't elaborate on it.  The classes Cat and Template have seperate headers of their own.   is used for articles (hence why the word article is included and not other words),  for Tolkien categories.  I would lump categories and templates in one banner and article in another seperately.  Perhaps we should move the Cat and Template classes to the ? (For the list of templates and what each function, I highly reccomend visiting this page.) —Mirlen 03:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the labelling of the category and template pages using this template should be undone. Use separate templates to label them, though remember that this will probably duplicate work already done in populating :Category:WikiProject Middle-earth templates. I never categorised the categories, as that is just silly (a list would be nice). Actually, the template categorises the talk page, so that is OK! Discussion has also been taking place at User talk:Cbrown1023. Carcharoth 11:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Awesome .  Briefly reading your last comment on the discussion (I'll read the full discussion later), Carcharoth, I agree with you that category template should be placed on talk pages on categories.  I'm going to place the category template on the talk pages instead of the front, so if you want to join me in my little quest, feel free to do so! *goes off to edit Me:T* —Mirlen 04:27, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ME-project banner 

message: With this distinctions:
a) Quenya. There's should be a difference between Pre-record Quenya (as sucessfully examined by HF) that leads to Quenya Vanyarin (Quendya) and Quenya Noldorin (Classic Quenya). The latter will lead also to the Exilic Quenya (and possibile if we want to insert it, Quenya 3rd Age).
b) Common Eldarin. With the division of the CE branch, we have the Pre-record Quenya and the Common Lindarin. The latter will differentiate in Common Nandorin and Common Telerin.
c) Common Telerin > Old Sindarin >
:a)North Sindarin Branch > Mithrim :b)South Sindarin Branch > 
::a)Doriathrim (Doriathrin is another language devised before the 40s) 
::b)Falathrim (which is the Western Branch of the Sindarin family, this branch is the one we usaully call "Sindarin". | Falathrin is another language present in the Etym.) 
Please note the Falathrin ≠ Falathrim and Dorathrin ≠ Doriathrim
*Primitive Quendian (language of the Elves in Cuiviénen)
**Avarin
***Various Avarin languages (some later merged with Nandorin)
**Common Eldarin (the early language of all the Eldar)
***Quenya (the language of the Noldor and the Vanyar)
**** Quenya Valarin (also Quendya)  (daily tongue of the Vanyar: closest to archaic Quenya)
**** Quenya Noldorin Classic 
***** Exilic Quenya  the "Elven Latin" of Middle-earth
***Common Lindarin (the early language of all the Lindar)
****Nandorin (languages of the Nandor — some were influenced by Avarin)
*****Original language of Greenwood the Great
*****Original language of Lórinand
****Common Telerin (the early language of all the Lindar who continue the March)
*****Amanya Telerin (the language of the Teleri who reached the Undying Lands)
*****Old Sindarin (language of the Sindar)
******Doriathrim (dialect of Doriath)
******Falathrim (Western dialect of the Falas and Nargothrond, more known simpler as Sindarin)
******North Sindarin (dialects of Dorthonion and Hithlum)
And should be included somewhere Doriathrin and Falathrin, as early languages.
--Elistir 10:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Language Tree should be renovated in the structure of the Project. 

message: I'm wondering if it would help to add some more parameters to Template:ME-project to distinguish between page types? Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Assessment for what I am proposing. Another thought is that it might be helpful to clearly distinguish the Middle-earth stuff from the non-Middle-earth stuff. There is a fair amount of cross-over, but there are clearly articles that are purely Middle-earth, and some which are nothing to do with Middle-earth, but are still related to Tolkien. ie. Have "Middle-earth" and "Tolkien" parameters in the template? Would this work, or is the current set-up sufficient? Carcharoth 21:08, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fine with making a distinction between different page types, but I'm rather unsure about the necessity of having "Middle-earth" and "Tolkien" parameters.  I'm sure if the reader reads the subject of the article, they will (or at least they should) know. —Mirlen 23:56, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is all aimed at editors, not readers, cos its on the talk page. But your point applies to editors as well. They should also know! :-) Any idea how to do the coding in the template to get the page types appearing there? The other thing is to get the template wording to change to "article or page", rather than just "article". It might be simpler to leave things the way they are! Carcharoth 00:01, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea, though tweaking with the template I've gained knowledge, but far cry from knowing how to work the coding in the template.  It was Irongoygle who added the assessment code so you're going to have to ask him about implementing the codes. —Mirlen 01:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Template:ME-project]] parameters

message: Thus far, it only appears we have an animatic of Sauron for illustration of what went on during production of the trilogy. I request respectfully off anyone on WP:ME to upload any of the following, possibly from the DVDs or elsewhere:
*John Howe analyzing Gondorian armour.
*A comparison of Alan Lee's Minas Tirith painting and the finished film.
*Andy Serkis wearing his "gimpsuit".
*A diagram of the streamlining of the story from the novel and the three films, in terms of the three volumes and parts being put into different films, as well as what went out.
*Peter Jackson reading the book.
*Side-by-side photo of Hobbit's first and last day on Principal Photography: hiding under Nazgul and reaction of being bowed to at Minas Tirith.
*Dom Monaghan and Billy Boyd on Treebeard puppet.
*Scale doubles.
*Pre-viz shot of Minas Tirith battle.
*Early Gollum design.
*Comparison of old and finished Witch-king.
I'll request some more if anyone uploads any. Thanks.Wiki-newbie 14:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Those would all be copyrighted and only allowable under fair use, if at all. You would have to read Wikipedia:Fair use and provide justification when you upload the images. If you can find publicity photos on the film or NewLine websites, you might be able to justify fair-use. Remember though that we shouldn't excessively use fair use images. It might seem like these images would be perfect for illustrating articles, but if we can't use them, we can't use them, and we should concentrate on writing about those topics. Carcharoth 11:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I can't, and don't want to, get "stuff off the DVDs", but if you point me to a website with suitable pictures, I might consider uploading some pictures if you tell me which ones you want. I can also explain the process, if that will help. I'm guessing though that you can do website stuff, and it is the DVD stuff you can't do. Well, I can't do that either. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Nice work on the articles you've been working on, by the way. Carcharoth 21:04, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Per Carcharoth, especially with the work with the efforts made towards turning The Lord of the Rings film trilogy as GA. —Mirlen 04:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Films - Behind the scenes images 

message: I have found some fair use images in Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Images. As you may know, images licensed under fair use can only be used in the article namespace (Fair use criteria #9). I will replace these images with wikilinks if nobody does that in the near future. Just thought you needed to be informed. Cheers! -- ReyBrujo 00:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Lots of the fair use images are already wiki-links, and there is a note at the top telling people not to put fair use images in galleries. Guess a few must have been missed. Carcharoth 00:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ehem, that includes user pages :-) -- ReyBrujo 00:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this better? :-) Carcharoth 00:58, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Images 

message: Found an old discussion at Talk:Elros. Some interesting views on how to approach articles and where to draw the line on what to include, and how to include it. Carcharoth 00:58, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Boundaries of project - old discussions

message: Hello. The WikiProject Council is currently in the process of developing a master directory of the existing WikiProjects to replace and update the existing Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory.  These WikiProjects are of vital importance in helping wikipedia achieve its goal of becoming truly encyclopedic. Please review the following pages: 
*User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory, 
*User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory 2, 
*User:Badbilltucker/Philosophy and religion Directory, 
*User:Badbilltucker/Sports Directory, 
*User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory, 
*User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory/United States, (note: This page will be retitled to more accurately reflect its contents)
*User:Badbilltucker/History and society directory, and
*User:Badbilltucker/Science directory
and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory.
The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. 
It is my hope to have the existing directory replaced by the updated and corrected version of the directory above by November 1. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 22:31, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. We only appear in the first two directories. Not sure why link to those other directories were provided. Strange. Anyway, someone should update our entires there. I'll try and do it tomorrow, unless someone gets there first. Carcharoth 01:20, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry if you tried to update it before, and the corrections were gone. I have now moved the new draft in the old directory pages, so the links should work better. My apologies for any confusion this may have caused you. B2T2 14:20, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I regret to say that, with about 1000 projects out there, I made a copy of one single message to send out to everyone. You are free to make any changes you wish to, but you might just want to tell me what they are. The internal formatting for the directory is kind of complicated, and it's really easy to make mistakes. I really don't want to tell you the number of mistakes I've already made and corrected on it myself, but I think I've more or less got the hang of it now. B2T2 16:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Project Directory 

message: We just had a question on the help desk about Ossë, which redirects to Ossë. The question was is it really necessary? There is nothing in "what links here". It was created in 2004. Any need of it at all? -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk) 23:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I asked that question, didn't I? I suppose I could answer it and you could post an answer at the help desk for me to read... :-) I was really asking about whether the "ë" bit was needed. The redirect Osse would be more appropriate, but hasn't been created yet is a disambiguation page. I guess my point is that no-one is going to type "Ossë", so I might put it up for deletion. Carcharoth 01:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I brought it here because I thought that this would be the group of people that knew whether or not it was needed. It's almost speediable per R3, implausable typo. -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk) 03:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I'll wait a day or two to see if anyone disagrees, unless someone speedies it before me. Carcharoth 09:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Back at the help desk, someone else points out that there is no harm leaving it there. It's cheap and doesn't do any harm. I'll leave it alone then. Carcharoth 09:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question From the [[WP:HD|Help Desk]] 

message: Though others might be interested in this and in particular what happened to Bilbo... :-) Carcharoth 23:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bilbo stuff 

message: As Mirlen writes in a discussion about whether Template_talk:Middle-earth belongs in :Category:Novel series navigational boxes, we sometimes have to choose between "verified truth or common perceptions that can be slightly misleading" - as also evident from the above. Another popular misconception is that Hobbits are a separate race. Actually Tolkien writes that they are a "variety" or "separate branch" (different species?) of the race of Men; this is stated in the article, along with the fact that characters, including the Hobbits themselves, think of them as a separate race (Men and Hobbits are as different as apples and oranges, according to Bilbo). See - Were Hobbits a sub-group of Humans? from The Tolkien Meta-FAQ
So should we remove :Category:Middle-earth races from the article? Should we replace it with :Category: Middle-earth Men? :Category: Middle-earth Hobbits already exists and includes the article. If we do so, explanatory notes will have to be written on the category pages. Admittedly, this can be only confirmed in Letters and the guide for translators; the statement that "Hobbits are relatives of ours, closer than are Elves and Dwarves" in the prologue to LOTR is too vague. Uthanc 03:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Another point of inaccuracy

message: Greek mythology is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality.  Sandy (Talk) 17:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh? Why put this notice here? Uthanc 07:18, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gondolin was Troy, didn't you know! :-) (if you read the discussion, it seems the above page was linked from here at some point, specifically here). Carcharoth 08:50, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: AFAIK Gondolin story was inspired by Troy but it did not meant to "represent Troy" literally, Tolkien hated metaphor like that. --Factanista 12:19, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, don't get me wrong, I wasn't suggesting it was an allegory (the thing JRRT detested), but merely pointing out that others (not me) have made the comparisons. JRRT did use metaphors and similies extensively though, as in "a great cloud in the evening, shaped as it were an eagle" (Akallabeth) or "the shadow around it spread out like two vast wings" (LotR). Carcharoth 13:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Understood. What I was saying (more like reaffirming) is that to state "Gondolin IS Troy" was just wrong. I know that JRRT was influenced and inspired by fall of Troy (at least C.Tolkien suggested it...as far as I can remember) but he, as you say yourself, detested allegory (or metaphor) in such a sense that one thing is representing the other...metaphorically, like f.e. Orcs actaully being Nazis, etc. Of course that he like all writers used meaphors in that sense present in the quoted passages. Bah...hope you understand what I am trying to say here...I am a bit foggy today...--Factanista 17:46, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Greek mythology]]

message: At least the Fëanor and Morgoth articles have images of the characters, but they're fan art, and their artists don't ring a bell, unlike John Howe, Alan Lee, Ted Nasmith (probably the most well-known Tolkien artists), the Brothers Hildebrandt, Jenny Dolfen, and Anke Eißmann (probably the two most famous fan-artists, and they sell prints). If they can stay at all, they may need to be properly tagged and re-uploaded. We could use more images, preferably by well-known artists, and even by Tolkien himself. 
*Fëanor: :Image:Feanor62.jpg, :Image:Guisadong gulays Feanor and Gothmog.jpg - this one has a erroneous blonde Fëanor (well, Howe did have a blonde Fingolfin fighting Morgoth... that would be a nice image, except for the hair, but I guess we could point it out). 
*Morgoth: :Image:Lord - Morgoth.jpg Uthanc 15:06, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  Those fan arts should be deleted — the only reason why Jenny Dolfen's and Anke Eißmann's arts are allowed is because in reality, both of them are professional artists and not only because they are allowed to sell prints related to Tolkien's legendarium, but also because both of them have been commisioned to create art for many recognized Tolkien organizations throughout.  It'd be wonderful if we could upload some art by Tolkien.  Anyone have any? —Mirlen 22:26, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Art by Tolkien. Interesting. The Tolkien Estate would hold the copyright. Probably the closest you could get to it would be a fair-use rationale in an article about Tolkien's art, or the cover of one of the books on Tolkien's art, used to illustrate an article on the book, again fair use. Other than that, an external link would be the next best thing, though we mustn't link to websites that don't have permission for the pictures. Carcharoth 22:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since some of that art was used for postal stamps, it might be feasible to provide links to sites depicting those stamps. E.g. here. I'd assume that the Royal Mail had permission to use the pictures. I consider these very useful since they show that a lot of things very depicted by Tolkien far less over-the-top as by other fantasy artists such as, for example, Howe. --OliverH 22:54, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good idea. In fact, I think it might even be OK to put that picture of the stamps on the J. R. R. Tolkien article, with a fair-use rationale of illustrating the impact he has had on wider culture. ie. enough to get stamps issued. There are places around here to check image use (which is a complex business). Could someone ask about this there? Somewhere like Wikipedia:Images maybe? Carcharoth 01:23, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Left a note at Wikipedia_talk:Fair_use#Fair_use_of_stamps_images instead. Carcharoth 01:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I once saw a scan of a page from J. R. R. Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator online, showing a drawing of Sauron! Tolkien depicted him as a guy with literally black skin (or was it armor?) and red eyes, stretching his arm out. However, uploading to and linking to scans of pages isn't allowed here, I think. Anyway, I can't find the site again (sigh). Uthanc 03:32, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New images

message: :Category:The Lord of the Rings music is used for music for the Jackson films. It's a subcategory of :Category: Middle-earth music, which contains all other Tolkien-related music, and of :Category:Film soundtracks and :Category:Film scores. I think the category should contain film soundtracks from the other films. Also, judging by the title Donald Swann's The Road Goes Ever On song cycle should be here, though its not film-related. It should be renamed :Category:The Lord of the Rings film music (any other wording?  :Category:Music of The Lord of the Rings films?) for clarity, adaptation-neutrality and to keep it within its parent categories. What do you say? Check out my proposal at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 November 4. Uthanc 15:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Category changed. Uthanc 05:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[:Category:The Lord of the Rings music]] needs renaming/changing

message: J. R. R. Tolkien is due to go on the Main Page on 15 November. The Lord of the Rings set a new record for number of edits while featured, so we should aim to have the Tolkien article looking nice, and be ready for the exposure this article will get. Also, if there are any changes needed to the introduction that will appear on the front page (see here), we should agree on them and get an admin to change the text. I have two minor changes to suggest: (1) change the first reference to Oxford to say "Oxford University"; (2) ensure the C. S. Lewis bit doesn't break across lines. Carcharoth 01:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Vandal-watching, eh? I wasn't even online on Oct. 5, tsk tsk. Uthanc 06:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I went ahead and made those changes. Can undo if there is dispute and/or make other updates. --CBD 13:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Date for your diaries - 15 November!!

message: I commend Kaobear for wiping out all ""Lord Of the Rings" redirects in articles and article talk pages (no need for personal pages). But there's still a lot to be done. Does anyone know a automated bot or something that can fix these?
*Lord of the Rings - It's not "Lord of the Flies"!
*J.R.R. Tolkien - Understandable.
*JRR Tolkien - Not.
List more here. Uthanc 12:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Lord of the Rings fixing (to The Lord of the Rings), and indeed the Lord Of The Rings fixing needs to be careful to distinguish what the link should be pointing at. See The Lord of the Rings (disambiguation) for a list of possibilities. Fixing dabs can be done by AWB, but please take care to verify that the links are pointing at the film, book, radio, board game, musical or whatever, and not just to the book. Also, don't forget to italicise where appropriate. And when changing J.R.R. Tolkien to J. R. R. Tolkien, please put in non-breaking spaces, as in J. R. R. Tolkien (use edit to see the correct formatting for the nbsp bits) - though this is maybe being a bit pedantic. For more redirects, which hopefully can be organised into a subcategory of spelling and typographic mistakes, see :Category:Middle-earth redirects. Carcharoth 13:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Edited your comment to show the nbsps. To show an entity, just replace the ampersand & with its own entity, &. -- Jordi·✆ 07:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: (Irritating) redirects-to-fix list

message: I have added Music Inspired by Middle Earth, an album by David Arkenstone, to :Category:Middle-earth music. I have owned this album for years. When I used to play EverQuest I would run this album as soundtrack and turn off the in-game music. :)  --Bill W. Smith, Jr. 12:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is "Arkenstone" his real name?! I wonder what it means. Tolkien had an Arkenstone too... ;) And what's with the underscoring? Thanks. Uthanc 12:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: heh, no, the underscoring should not have been there, it was a cut and paste. :) better? As far as I know, Arkenstone is his real name, or as real as any performers name is. He has several albums. check it out. --Bill W. Smith, Jr. 21:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  David Arkenstone album added