Talk:Stokely Carmichael

message: Not sure if this belongs in the article, but Mad magazine #111 June 1967 did a full-length parody of Porgy and Bess called "Stokely and Tess," commenting on then current African American politics and including a song "It Ain't Necessarily Stoke" in which a more moderate African American states rejects Carmichael's "Black Power" views. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:03, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
This Mad parody was recently discussed at some length by Gerald Early ( The Great Black Hope, The Nation, posted March 9, 2006; March 27, 2006 issue). Early mentions something I'd forgotten: that this was part of Mad's "Special Racial Issue." He remarks, among other things, "It was probably the first time in American history when the political divisions among blacks mattered to whites… "Stokely and Tess" also marked the end of an era, in the sense that the assassination of King the following April made it virtually impossible for anyone to treat the movement or King with such gleeful irreverence."
Anyway, I'm not sure the article on Carmichael is where any of this belongs, but I think it belongs in Wikipedia somewhere. Maybe just the article on Mad? I'm very open to suggestions, but if none are forthcoming, I guess that is where I'll put it. - Jmabel | Talk 03:11, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Parody of some interest

message: Shouldn't this article be moved to Kwame Ture? Wikipedia precedent generally respects name changes (e.g. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Muhammad Ali). Since Carmichael chose this name and held it for the last two decades of his life, I think that the article should be moved to that name. Firebug 06:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My feeling is yes, but on the other hand he is more widely known as Carmichael, so you could argue that the naming convention should have him here.  Guettarda 13:34, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So much better known by his older name that when he went on speaking tours, he was always listed as "Kwame Ture (Stokely Carmichael)". Kareem Abdul-Jabbar achieved his greatest fame under his adopted name (I bet few people under 40 could give his birth name, even if they are basketball fans); Muhammad Ali is slightly less clearcut, but certainly his birth name doesn't have higher recognition than his adopted name. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:49, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I have to say I agree. The name of the article should reflect the wishes of the person it's about. When I first heard of this remarkable man, it was his chosen name and not his birth name that was said. P.S. I'd like to give a big thanks to everyone who has contributed information about this unfortunately little-known activist. Vote Socialist! -- H3xx 22:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

text: No, the general rule is not what the person calls him or herself, but what he or she is most known as ("what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize" from WP:NAME) which is generally the name that the  person achieved notability under.  Although he did use Kwame Ture for many years, his notability was achieved  under Stokely Carmichael, and it is most likely that readers would look for that name. So I think we have to stick with Stokely Carmichael as the name of the article. Tvoz |talk 08:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I have added material to the article today which I believe resolves this issue.  My own feeling was initially that this needed to be moved to Kwame Ture, but Carmichael himself spoke about the issue with a Washington Post reporter while on his deathbed and "didn't seem to mind" interchangeable use of both names.  So now, I lean towards the use of the name under which he became most famous, Stokely Carmichael, with appropriate redirects. -- Lisasmall 17:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article title

message: With all respect to Carmichael's extraordinary contribution to the Civil Rights Movement, shouldn't the article also make mention of the famous incident in which Casey Hayden asked, "what is the position of womyn in SNCC" in response to a growing sense of patriarchy within the organization and Stokely Carmichael answered, "prone."  Not to present a dynamic view of the individual and organization presents an incomplete picture of the time, the movement, and the man. —This unsigned comment was added by 71.141.4.148 (talk • contribs) 14 March 2006.
: "Womyn"? I don't think I've seen anyone seriously use that spelling in over a decade. 
: Yes, the quotation probably belongs (though not with this bizarre respelling). The problem is, in writing an encyclopedia article, that it's hard to know quite what to say about something that was clearly on some level a joke, and the question is how the joke was meant. See, for example, Mark & Paul Engler's review of Carmichael/Ture's Ready for Revolution] (written with Michael Thelwell). 
On the organizer’s behalf, Thelwell convincingly argues that Carmichael’s infamous sexist remark (answering “prone” to a question about the place of women in the movement) was a joke taken out of context. Mary King and Casey Hayden, the supposed targets of the quip, defend Carmichael as being one of the men in SNCC most sympathetic to their criticisms of patriarchy within the organization.
:So, it's pretty ambiguous. If we are going to write about it, someone should probably dig up a copy of Ready for Revolution and see what Thelwell has to say. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Carmichael and Womyn's Rights

message: The quote  that links to David Horowitz is a very bad quote. It is a lie. Kwame Ture was never a hater of Trinidad and Tobago. I wish you would remove it. Neither was he a Racist. A Racialist, maybe but not a racist. He came back to Trinidad and gave a lecture before he died preaching Racial tolerance,... . —This unsigned comment was added by Ishango (talk • contribs) 16 March 2006.
: Ishango's remark here is very confusing. Nothing in the article says that Carmichael/Ture was "a hater of Trinidad and Tobago." Nor does anything in the article say he was a racist. I happen to disagree -- utterly -- with Horowitz, and think the statement reflects more on Horowitz than Carmichael, and I probably wouldn't have put it there (it's nothing but a substanceless putdown), but probably for such a controversial figure something negative/critical ought to be here. I'd gladly see something more substantive instead of Horowitz calling him "bad". - Jmabel | Talk 03:09, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is true. I'm sorry. I guess that I was probably on something!--Ishango 19:53, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ishango

message: What is a "carnical"? - Jmabel | Talk 06:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Carnical

message: Probably a lot more of this could be cited from the King Encyclopedia article from which I've cited some of the basics. It might be worth someone's time to comb that for citable material. - Jmabel | Talk 02:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: King Encyclopedia

message: The quote is still not in here - we have to work out a way to include it. Slac speak up! 05:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you feel that way,  find a verifiable citation and post an NPOV sentence or two about this. We ought to remember the dangers, though, of using today's sensibilities in evaluating what people said in the past.  The movement was filled with people - men- who fought for equal rights and justice and yet were appallingly sexist, certainly by today's standards. Stokely no doubt said that, but he was hardly the only one - not by a long shot.  Tvoz 07:07, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Prone"

message: says he was "close to the Young People's Socialist League", but if anything this casts further doubt on the claim that he was a member. I am removing that. - Jmabel | Talk 21:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: YPSL

message: If memory serves, it was around 1971, when Stokely came to the States, made a major address at Howard University, calling for the need for a political party for Africans on the continent and in the diaspora.  Shortly thereafter, he announced the founding of the AAPRP.  The party still exists.  Nothing in the article mentions it.  No time right now.  Perhaps someone else is interested in adding it.  deeceevoice 11:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a slight reference to the All-African Peoples Revolutionary Party today as the source for the New York Times obit reference to two sons, instead of one.  I agree with you, the article needs more about Ture's role in the A-APRP, but I've given the article three hours today and can't do more.  I notice you don't use the hyphen, and I wouldn't either — but the Wiki article does use it, as does kwameture.com.  -- Lisasmall 17:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: All African People's Revolutionary Party

message: This article seems to need some reference to Carmichael's role in the 1968 Washington, D.C. riots.  That article states he lead a group of SNCC members requesting stores to close out of respect for the assassinated Dr. Martin Luther King.   Curious as this article states he was essentially removed as head of SNCC in 1967.  Scarykitty 16:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 1968 Washington D.C. riots

message: Does anyone else feel like this portrays Carmichael (and the radical black nationalists in general) in a bit of an overly positive tone?  At times, I felt more like I was reading propaganda than an encyclopedia article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.197.169.131 (talk) 21:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality

message: This article (as read here) is excellent in my opinion. Very good summary, very encyclopedic, very well written, and an excellent presentation of Carmichael's ideas as well as the environment in which those ideas were developed. Just thought I'd say good job. :) Uwmad (talk) 18:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Excellent article

message: Span, Paula. "The Undying Revolutionary: As Stokely Carmichael, He Fought for Black Power. Now Kwame Ture's Fighting For His Life." Washington Post. Wednesday April 8, 1998. D01. WhisperToMe (talk) 03:41, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Article

message: I have removed the following from the article, as it does not mention Stokely. If he had a role in the riots, this needs to be written in.BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:25, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Washington DC riots 

message: Should be something on the phase of his career ca. 1990 when he went around college campuses making random derogatory remarks about Jews, and predicting that Israel would be soon wiped from the map. See http://www.nytimes.com/1996/03/11/opinion/l-black-activist-disparages-jews-063096.html?src=pm etc. AnonMoos (talk) 19:24, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: latter phase

message: He may have worked with them to forge a merger between 1967 and 1968 and remained in name only, but he officially left SNCC to join the Black Panthers in 1967.  The Kathleen Cleaver source notes how he was close to H. Rap Brown  We need to include all sides and say things "mixed" instead of "largely positive."  This is part of the reason why Wikipedia is losing editors184.97.240.101 (talk) 23:35, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I included three sources to refute you.  Furthermore, he did not even join the Panthers until February 1968.  Please do not attempt to insert factual errors into Wikipedia again, or our quality editors will root you out.GPRamirez5 (talk) 00:19, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Charmichael left SNCC In 1967 and This Article is More Like A Fanpage than An Encylopedia Article

message: This article uses two different spellings of Stokely Carmichael's alternate name. Is it Kwame Touré or Kwame Ture? I don't know which is correct, or are both versions correct? Bunkyray5 (talk) 00:16, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: In his book Black Power: The Politics of Liberation, it is listed as Kwame Ture (formerly known as Stokely Carmichael).Nwright3 (talk) 04:33, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is correct spelling of alternate name? 

message: Seeing as there is no current Wikipedia page for this book, I'm going to walk through its basic principles here. 
The first chapter talks about racism and white power in America. It distinguishes between the two types of racism, "overt and covert," Ture, Kwame; Hamilton, Charles (1967). Black Power: The Politics of Liberation. Random House. p. 4. . and the colonial aspects taking place. The institutional racism, described as covert, is something that is overlooked by white people because they are not committing a specific act of individual racism. However, the colonial aspects can be seen in political, economic, and social aspects. These aspects stay relevant today, nearly 50 years after the original publication. With current issues such as police brutality, there only being two current black US Senators, and wage gaps, it is impossible to deny that these issues have not and are not close to being resolved.
The book continues into defining Black Power and stating the need for it. He outlines steps black people must make in the United States in order to "carve out a place for themselves in the politico-social order."  Ture, Kwame; Hamilton, Charles (1967). Black Power: The Politics of Liberation. Random House. p. 34. . The steps go from redefining identities to political modernization, what he defines as "questioning old values and institutions of the society, searching for new and different forms of political structure to solve political and economic problems, and broadening the base of political participation to include more people in the decision-making process."  Ture, Kwame; Hamilton, Charles (1967). Black Power: The Politics of Liberation. Random House. p. 39. . He accentuates the necessity for black people to lead and run their own organizations. Power is essential because it is the core of American politics. 
Much of the book is specific examples that serve as evidence for his points. He makes it abundantly clear that change must be made. He outlines the fundamental ways things should happen and the consequential outcomes for disregarding the necessary changes. He states that there are no other real alternatives. "The choice lies between a genuinely new approach and maintaining the brutalizing, destructive, violence-breeding life of the ghettos as they exist today. From the viewpoint of black people, that is no choice."  Ture, Kwame; Hamilton, Charles (1967). Black Power: The Politics of Liberation. Random House. p. 177. .
Nwright3 (talk) 06:07, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black Power: The Politics of Liberation (Book by Kwame Ture and Charles V. Hamilton) 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: Can someone please add the date of the name change, preferably with a brief section on what he did before vs. after the name change?  
I'm an old white guy born in 1944.  I remember him as Stokely Carmichael.  
A friend asked me to watch a video of him from 1966, labeled "Dr Kwame Ture Black Power Speech 1966".  I don't know when he changed his name, but I'm pretty sure it was after 1966.  This article should include that detail, I think.  
Thanks to all who have helped make this article what it is.  DavidMCEddy (talk) 02:31, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of name change? 

message: Why did you revert the link in put to Lowndes County, Alabama for the first reference to Lowndes County in the section on Lowndes County Freedom Organization?  
I put that link there after searching the article for several minutes to find which Lowndes County was involved.  In fact, Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi all have counties named Lowndes.  Eventually I found the Wikipedia article on the Lowndes County Freedom Organization, which said that its headquarters were in Lowndes County, Alabama.  
In retrospect, I think we should do the following: 
* Add  right after the heading, per Template:Main.  
* Replace the first mention of "Lowndes County" in that section with a link to Lowndes County, Alabama.
I am making those changes.  If you don't like them let's discuss.  Thanks for your support of Wikipedia. DavidMCEddy (talk) 11:20, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it is linked earlier in the article. But it is reasonable to link it again the first time it is mentioned in this section, I agree. AlsoWukai (talk) 20:22, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Good.  Thanks.  DavidMCEddy (talk) 20:27, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lowndes County, Georgia, Alabama, or Mississippi?  

message: What did Carmichael actually do for a living? The article doesn't seem to say. For most people, earning a living is the dominant factor in their lives. If this did not apply to him somehow, it's rather extraordinary. Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:08, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Living

message: What are his traits like 5 of them 2600:1700:E83:A010:8C41:2704:3B80:2586 (talk) 23:48, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Traits 

message: :There were eighteen entries in the "External links" including two subsections. Three seems to be an acceptable number and of course, everyone has their favorite to add for four. The problem is that none is needed for article promotion. 
*ELpoints #3) states: 
*LINKFARM states: 
*ELMIN: .
*ELBURDEN: Please note:   --  Otr500 (talk) 02:05, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: FYI, Hideki Naganuma is a Japanese composer and DJ, who produced a song "The Concept of Love" in 2002, which is documented in WhoSampled. I do NOT know if it sampled Carmichael's speeches, though I suspect it does. 
If you or someone else has time, it should be worth checking. I've never used WhoSampled, and I'm not eager to start now. However, if the claim is correct that, "Carmichael's speeches have been sampled by composer and DJ Hideki Naganuma", then it is presumable more informative to say that, 'Carmichael's speeches have been sampled by Japanese composer and DJ Hideki Naganuma's song "Concept of Love"', and then link to an appropriate reference. Sadly, I'm not prepared to check that myself right now. I hope someone else will. DavidMCEddy (talk) 01:45, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I pared the statement down a bit, but really the question is whether WhoSampled is a reliable source or a primary source, such that the whole section should be removed. I'm leaving it alone for now in hope that others will weigh in on that fundamental question. Geoff |  Who, me? 13:24, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hideki Naganuma is Japanese and produced "Concept of Love". 

message: Change the name to his preferred name 2600:1003:B114:88A0:C54:AB89:5CB3:C0B7 (talk) 06:22, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change the name on the page to his preferred name