Talk:Santa Muerte

message: The majority of Patronage of Santa Muerte arent from the LGBT community, that is only a minority. Why are transexuals, bisexuals, homosexuals etc the first things in the Patronage section? This is wrong information, as they are only a minority of patronage! Excuse my poor english  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.30.215.235 (talk) 01:45, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The list is not in order of "most important" or "majority" patronage. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 00:25, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patronage 

message: is how this starts, which doesn't seem to reflect the first 3 refs (opening bits only of the long Spanish one) who speak of SM more as a black-market saint-type figure within an obviously unofficial Catholic context, or an icon. Obviously the popular conceptions are not going to be precise in theological terms, but I think a shift in phrasing to have more "veneration" or "devotion" etc (which saints get) rather than "worship" (for deities) would better reflect what I have seen of the sources.  It seems rather different from Santeria in this respect, which really has deities.  The old version just had "is a religious figure", which is unarguable, if a bit chicken.     Johnbod (talk) 02:58, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Santa Muerte is a deity ..." 

message: Headsup: Today's article by Jill Leovy on the Los Angeles Times website shows and mentions the figure as wearing a security guard badge. knoodelhed (talk) 16:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wears a badge 

message: I removed the following from the article, and bring it here for discussion.
:The Niño de las Suertes is a Child Jesus image that has a strong following due to its association with Santa Muerte. While the image was created in the 19th century, its popular veneration is a recent phenomenon. The image was found by two evangelists in the rubble of the Hacienda of San Juan de Dios in Tlalpan. It was handed over to Archbishop Francisco Lizana y Beaumont. As a number of monasteries wanted to claim it, the archbishop decided to make the decision by lottery. It is said that this image favored the Convent of San Bernardo due to the vow of poverty by its nuns. This was confirmed by doing the drawing three times. In the 19th century, due to tensions between the Mexican government and the Church, the image was moved to Tacubaya when the convent was secularized. This image has a skull above the head. This originally symbolized the future Passion, has since made it associated with Santa Muerte and its devotees visit this image as well.  
This is a rather long, and highly-detailed, section, but it makes no clear connection to Santa Muerte.  It has one reference, which may add weight to the issue, but as it is in Spanish, I have no way of knowing.  I believe this should remain out of the article until a clear connection is established. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 16:29, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  The connection was there but someone removed... Ill go find it.Thelmadatter (talk) 19:41, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I returned the section as it was originally written. This information comes from INAH and not too many sources more reliable than this.Thelmadatter (talk) 19:44, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Niño de las Suertes in Tacubaya 

message: I think the way worship is fraised in this article is incorrect, as well as calling Santa Muerta a diety or pagan idol. Followers of Santa Muerte are not worshipping her as a diety, but venerating her as a saint (against the Catholic Church's position). --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 21:35, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Worship/Diety

message: User:108.52.5.127 has recently inserted the following:
The Bible says in Proverbs 8:36, referring to the personification of Wisdom, "all those who hate me love death". The Bible is clear that death is the result of sin (Romans 5:12).
I have reverted this on the following grounds. Firstly, the Bible is arguably a primary source for this topic, since Santa Muerte is, as described in the article, a syncretization of Catholic and traditional beliefs. Secondly, naked Bible references like this do not add any reliable sourcing to the article - the Santa Muerte and the Catholic Church section is already well-referenced with good sources. Thirdly, the implication in this statement is that Santa Muerte is a "foolish" and "sinful" religion. I don't argue that the mainstream Catholic Church don't believe that, but these two out-of-context verses imply that Santa Muerte's adherents "hate" wisdom and that their religion is the result of "sin". It thus violates WP:NPOV. Yunshui (talk) 10:25, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps my reverts were a little bitey, if so, I apologise. Perhaps an easier way to explain my objection to this inclusion would be by analogy. Suppose I go to the Pillow article and insert a section claiming that the Catholic Church opposes pillows on Biblical grounds, citing Ezekiel 13:20: "Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows." Any half-competent editor would revert it. Suppose, however, that I cite references showing that noted theologian Archibald Souphat and papal commentator Cardinal Milkweasle both claim that the Pope objects to pillows on precisely these grounds. That would be far more likely to remain in the article. In the same way, this insertion is basically original research: you are stating your opinion, correct or not, that the Church objects to Santa Muerte because of these two verses. Cite a reliable source showing that this reasoning is supported, and the verses can stay in. Yunshui (talk) 09:44, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

text: To say, using the bible verse Proverbs 8:36, that Christians are supposed to hate death is not a correct translation. To many Catholics, Santa Muerta is very similar to the Angel of Death, which is a Christian (and other Abrahamic religions) idea. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 00:35, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of Bible quotation 

message: If Santa Muerte is an idol, "the worship of which has been rejected by God since the Old Testament" then what about making an idol out of or worshiping Christ? The Church baffles me  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 (talk) 09:53, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Catholicism, and all mainline Christianity for that matter, worship the Trinity - which Christ is a part of. Therefore, according to the religion, Christ is not an idol, Christ is God. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 00:31, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: theological contradiction

message: I have disputed edits made to this article by Rachesnut. Initially I thought there were no citations to the content changes but it seems that there are citations from the editor's own book, as he noted to me on my talk page. I have told him about WP:COI and requested copies of the pages he is citing so I can verify. I especially disagree with his assertion that the belief has been prominent only since the early 2000s. (I can believe that it has grown exponentially since then but it was prominent before that). I have left most of his edits in hoping for confirmation only taking out some undue talk on the importance of owls in European and Mesoamerican lore as well as the disputed statement on prominence.  However, instead of discussing this with me he is simply reverting my edits and accusing me a vandalism.Thelmadatter (talk) 20:17, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Rachesnut is now going into blatant self promotion on that last edit.Thelmadatter (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You probably shouldn't be the one to add your name to the article, or to write content relying heavily on your own work (I don't know that you have done this). That being said it is unreasonable for Thelmadatter to request pages from a book that is publicly available. That is not how wikipedia works. It does seem verifiable that Dr. Chesnut is a recognized expert on Santa Muerte and it would clearly be wise to make the best of an expert's interest in contribute to the article rather than to antagonize or accuse of COI (which expertise is not). I do encourage both of you to stop editwarring, since it only damages your case and the article. Discuss changes here on the talkpage instead. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:10, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

text: For my part, as an interested editor, I am willing to go along with the knowledge of someone more informed on a particular subject.  However, I must say that your syntax has often been far from exemplary.  The word is syntax, not "sytax".  Of course, I mean no disrespect.RyanChamberlyn (talk) 15:56, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

text: So, here's the deal. I don't want to see any more edits in the next few days to the article by either of you. You can work things out here on the talk page, and you can use dispute resolution mechanisms if you can't achieve a consensus. If I see disruptive editing by either of you to the article, I reserve the right to block either of you or protect the article if I deem that to be the better choice. As a final note to Rachestnut, please don't mark all your edits as minor. Read the guideline on what constitutes a minor edit at Wikipedia.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:05, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure how you made the request, Rachesnut, but the usual place to do so is on your talk page, and you didn't do it there. I'm going to assume your content comment is directed to other editors, not me. As an aside, why do you sign using "purepecha"? It's not required that your signature more match or closely match your actual user name, but it's preferable (see WP:SIGEDITORIMPERSONATE.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:17, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: For what its worth... I never demanded he send me text from his book. I requested it in the spirit of consensus seeking because I know I dont have the right to it. I figured that since he is supposedly the author of the book, that would be an easy thing for him. Other authors I have had contact with for other projects have happily helped me out with such. I still dispute the "Santa Muerte rosary" thing despite the web pages. The rosary is said along with invocations to Santa Muerte but the rosary is part of the veneration. The pages do not show a separate and distinct form of the rosary. Im also not happy with the personal attacks on me from rachesnut, implying or outright stating that I am stupid or ignorant. I have been very polite to him offering help (see his talk page) but Ive received nothing but disparaging remarks. As per Bbb23's request, I will hold off on editing, not only to respect the editor but also since I dont know that information is not in the book.Thelmadatter (talk) 19:42, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute between User:Thelmadatter and User:Rachesnut 

message: I haven't studied the subject much, but all the articles I read never state there is a implied or official connection between catholic believes and Santa Muerte.  Everything I read states that 2 totally different beliefs?  In what was are the catholic church and Santa Muerte similar?  If an environmentalist left Green peace, started a baby seal clubbing group, Denounced the teachings of Green Peace, was in turn denounced by green peace, would we then write an article saying that green peace is clubbing baby seals? Sorry I don't know why the authors of this article and fringe members of the media are trying to make a connection.  Is the use of the word "santa"?  Is that the only thing the 2 organizations have in common? I would think at least part of the article should be written from the perspective of a member or someone who understand what this group is about.  Surely someone somewhere has source material from the group perspective.Mantion (talk) 05:44, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly, most of the followers of Santa Muerte are practicing Catholics, although not all are. The religious services in order to venerate her are almost identical to the Catholic Mass, and even include an invocation of the Holy Trinity, and often also of St. Michael the Archangel, the Virgin Mary, or St. Jude. She is seen as an angel and is venerated like a Catholic saint. -- 152.13.249.240 (talk) 00:24, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catholic connections? 

message: The article says "There are fifteen officially registered religious groups dedicated to her in Los Angeles alone,[2] which include the Temple of Santa Muerte.[56]"
What constitutes "officially registered" in the state of California? Religions are not "officially registered" in the United States.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.243.1.164 (talk) 03:00, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for noticing this mistake. "officially registered" does not appear in the Spanish source given. I have removed the offending phrase. Elizium23 (talk) 03:27, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Officially registered" in Los Angeles 

message: It seems to me that this article relies too much on the work of a single scholar who has also written a lot of the article. Chestnut is a recognized expert, but there are many other scholars who have worked on Santa Muerte and their perspectives may be missing. We should do some work to find out where Chestnuts views can be supplemented by alternative views from other scholars.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 08:00, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Overreliance on Chestnut and lack of additional perspectives

message: I would like the article to be somewhat less absolute in its statements in the history section and to provide some of the arguments and evidence for positing a direct continuity from Mictlancihuatl through the colonial period to contemporary Santa Muerte worship? What is the evidence that the worship was kept secret in this period, as opposed to it having dissappeared and been re-adopted in the 20th century? Moreover, it needs some geographic and social specificity as to which groups in mexican society might have maintained the worship in this period and where.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 08:00, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: History

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Enriqueta Romero seems to be a very relevant person in the religious movement. She is cited multiple times in this article and there is a good number of journalistic content about her. Yet, there is no Wikipedia page about her. Is there a reason for that? --Brandizzi (talk) 14:52, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  A page about Enriqueta Romero? 

message: This is English language Wikipedia, which is subject to a lot of confusion by Americans about Mexican culture and history. It is important for non-Mexicans editing here to understand a couple of things.
* If we are going to use sources about Mexican society, culture or history, they should be Mexican sources and ideally Mexican academic sources.
* Such sources take precedence over American sources in general, but particularly sources from US media. If there is any debate (two conflicting views) on anything regarding Mexico, the debate should be sourced with Mexican academics. Mexico is not Somalia. It has had functioning universities since long before the United States exists. Actually, since long before the English colony of Jamestown was founded.
* We should not use blogs as sources. I think this should be clear. Not blogs, not Californian magazines about tacos.
* The Santa Muerte is not an Aztec ritual. It didn't exist until a few decades ago. There is literally no knowledge of it existing prior to the 1970s. It has no link to indigenous people of Mexico and particularly not to Nahuatl speaking people of Mexico. Claiming otherwise is racist and slanders this ethnic minority. Mexico is not "Dusk till Dawn". Why it exists and has spread can be explained by the dynamics of modern day Mexican society.
* We should be wary of stereotypes and indigenist fantasies when writing about Mexico. Yes they are prevalent in the US and even among uneducated people in Mexico, but there is a consensus among Mexican academics that most of these myths are fabricated.
Gracias.--Frijolesconqueso (talk) 12:28, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  On sourcing in general and the Santa Muerte in particular 

message: While "cult" has two distinct meanings, as seen in Cult and Cult (religious practice), I think it's somewhat undeniable that, when discussing a religious movement which is associated primarily with a particular ethnic/cultural group, and to a lesser extent the LGBTQ+ community, and which has faced governmental and institutional repression, care should be taken to observe WP:NPOV. What are others' thoughts on this? Ithinkiplaygames (talk) 20:20, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Usage of the word "cult" and NPOV? 

message: I was confused by the following sentence in note a: "The reason the word 'cult' is used rather than 'religion' is because the veneration of Santa Muerte is its own religion."
Should there be a "not" between "is" and "its"? Noaht2 (talk) 12:54, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "the veneration of Santa Muerte is its own religion"