Talk:Yaffa Eliach

message: She needs her own page.  To redirect to brooklyn College? that makes less sense, then just to have nothing.
: Some books of Yaffa Eliach (different revisions and translations) . ‫·‏לערי ריינהארט‏·‏T‏·‏m‏:‏Th‏·‏T‏·‏email me‏·‏‬ 19:56, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: *This article has been reassessed as a start according to Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Assessment. Capitalistroadster (talk) 00:22, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Reassessed as a start

message: As might be seen in the multiple obits on this esteemed individual - e.g. wapo, NYT, or Forward - coverage of Polish and Polish-Americans contesting her accounts are limited to:  (WaPo) or  (NYT). This "dispute" by Polish Americans (and in Poland - which WaPo fails to mention) with various investigations of fairly low quality (relying on statements and documents of the killers) that were done by fairly WP:FRINGE elements are currently taking up approx. half the article - including the lede, and including in her own account (which was widely covered, unlike these various FRINGEy reports) on how her mother and brother died. This is grossly UNDUE and POVish. NYT and WaPo - are giving this 5 and 10 words respectively - in fairly long articles. The same proportion of coverage is shown in coverage from the 90s and 00s - with Eliach's accounts being widely covered.Icewhiz (talk) 09:14, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: You have been asked several times now to stop attacking historians based on their ethnicity. For the record you are actually wrong. People criticizing her are also Lithuanian(Liekis Sarunas) and Jewish(Michnik). Again, stop with the ethnic based attacks.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 09:20, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have not attacked anyone on the basis of their ethnicity - I quoted the Washington Post who said this was  - and in a long article on Eliach, gave this exactly 10 words. At present, the amount of coverage we are giving to this viewpoint (challenging Eliach's eyewitness testimony) is grossly UNDUE.Icewhiz (talk) 09:27, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: POV concerns - promotion of FRINGE view

message: Let's review the sources used in the article
*John Radzilowski
Ph.D.Associate Professor of History at University of Alaska Southeast, co-author of 13 books,numerous reports, articles, and reviews in publications such as Journal of American Ethnic History, Polin: Studies in Polish Jewry, Polish American Studies,American Heritage of Invention and Technology, and Minnesota History.Received the Oskar Halecki Prize
*Šarūnas Liekis
Sarūnas Liekis is a Lithuanian historian and political scientist. He is Professor of Politics and dean of the faculty of politics and diplomacy at the Vytautas Magnus University (since 2010). He is an expert on inter-ethnic relations and conflicts.
Liekis studied at Vilnius University 1987–1993 (earning an MA), at the University of Oxford 1991–1992 (earning a Diploma), at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem 1995–1996, at Brandeis University 1993–1998 (earning a PhD), and earned the Habilitation at Vilnius University in 2005.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0ar%C5%ABnas_Liekis
*Journal of Genocide Research
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journal_of_Genocide_Research
The Journal of Genocide Research is a quarterly peer-reviewed academic journal covering studies of genocide. It was established in 1999 and is published by Routledge. The editor-in-chief is A. Dirk Moses (University of Sydney). It is the official journal of the International Network of Genocide Scholars. Previous editors have been Henry R. Huttenbach, Dominik J. Schaller, and Jürgen Zimmerer. The journal is abstracted and indexed in Political Science Abstracts, Historical Abstracts, and America: History and Life.
*Gazeta Wyborcza
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazeta_Wyborcza
Left wing liberal newspaper
*Adam Michnik
Adam Michnik 
is a Polish historian, essayist, former dissident, public intellectual, and editor-in-chief of the Polish newspaper, Gazeta Wyborcz.Adam Michnik was born in Warsaw, Poland, to a family of Jewish communists.[2] His father Ozjasz Szechter was First Secretary of the Communist Party of Western Ukraine, and his mother Helena Michnik was a historian, communist activist, and children's-book author.He has taken various positions of support for the former Communist secret police officers, against the Catholic Church and against various post-Communist opposition parties.
*Polin
https://liverpooluniversitypress.co.uk/collections/series-polin-studies-in-polish-jewry
Polin, established in 1986 by the Institute for Polish-Jewish Studies, has acquired a well-deserved reputation for publishing authoritative material on all aspects of Polish Jewry. Contributions are drawn from many disciplines- history, politics, religious studies, literature, linguistics, sociology, art, and architecture-and from a wide variety of viewpoints.
None of the sources are fringe or nationalistic. Seems that the mainstream research on the subject of Eliach's claims has largely rejected her description of the events and that the criticism has been also issued by left-wing liberal historians and publicists.Reading through the publications it is clear that evidence against Eliach's version of events is overwhelming.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 10:36, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems that no one else, Eliach included, saw a need to "research" her eyewitness account of an event that was already adjudicated in a Soviet court with the perpetrators punished. Non-Polish newspapers widely covered her account. John Radzilowski is a (very recent) associate professor, and back in 1999 he wasn't even that - writing in a new Journal at the time - he is not a notable historian (as may be seen by looking at citations of him). Coverage of Eliach's account in RS (including books by academic publishers) sometimes doesn't even see fit to mention this dispute - and when it is mentioned - it is done briefly.Icewhiz (talk) 12:34, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  "that was already adjudicated in a Soviet court with the perpetrators punished" well Soviets were a totallitarian system engaged in atrocities, so historians don't consider their trials as reliable."he is not a notable historian"-if you believe he isn't a reliable source, take it to th appropriate board for discussion." Coverage of Eliach's account in RS (including books by academic publishers) sometimes doesn't even see fit to mention this dispute". Polin, Radzilowicz,Journal of Genocide Research are all highly reliable acadamic sources.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:43, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  See WP:UNDUE. This is a minor aspect of the subject - per most of the coverage of her. The fairness of the legal system in Soviet  Lithuania (or modern Poland) is moot when there is nothing to investigate (as the alleged perpetrators (per Eliach) were already punished). We do have RSes stating repeating in their own voice Eliach's account as fact without even mentioning these fringey investigations based on primary AK documents - e.g.  or  - both by reputable publishers.Icewhiz (talk) 13:32, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Review of sources 

message: Hmmm. " the baby was shot with 9 bullets and her mother with 15". So she counted the bullets and remembered that - as a 9-year old child? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:40, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: 9 year olds often have vivid memories, particularly when their mother is killed a few feet in front of them while they are hiding. 9 year old kids can count (heck, 3-4 year olds can). Not the sort of memory one would forget. In any event this was widely reported in RS.Icewhiz (talk) 14:48, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  IIRC the 'best' testimonies related to BM massacre where those of kids around that age - which is one of the reasons IPN shelved the investigation, concluding that such testimonies are too unreliable. But I guess different criteria applies here... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:05, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  The wiki criteria is sources. As for legal side, in this case those reponsible were tried and punished in Soviet times making the legal issue moot. Furthermore testimony is treated differently when it is told at an early date (which was the case here, Eliach spoke before 96, as did her older brother, father and others) as opposed to new testimony appearing aftet probing for it 60 years later.Icewhiz (talk) 15:51, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Soviet trials are per definition not reliable. However, there is a detailed analysis of the trials regarding this issue available and alledged murdering Jews is largely absent from the Soviet proceedings. If you insist this can be added to the article--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 13:31, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Excellent memory

message: The biography is dominated by a child's tale. Einstein was a scientist, his socks weren't important. If Yaffa Eliach was important, please write about her successes, not about crazy opinions.Xx236 (talk) 08:53, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: *False.  the page has a long section on her life.  to be sure, Eliach is an academic historian, like most scholars, she led a quiet life in adulthood.  She was, however, a scholar of hte Holocaust, which makes her childhood experience as a victim of the Holocaust especially significant.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:27, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Ithink EM Gregory is correct, that it is relevantto her career. It is in particular relevant to her published work.   DGG ( talk ) 03:43, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

text: It's relevant, it makes her biased. Xx236 (talk) 07:18, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  It's a biography 

message: She was born in a Polish town of Ejszyszki. Xx236 (talk) 13:01, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: A Jewish shetetl, that spoke in Yiddish - and whose residents referred to the place in Yiddish as Eishyshok - as do RSes referring to Eliach - e.g. The Washington Post, as does academic work on the Jewish community. Today it is Eišiškės in Lithuanian. Icewhiz (talk) 13:09, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  born '' in Eishyshok ''? 

message: It wasn't Lithuania in 1935. We don't write born in 1935 in Gdańsk, Poland. Xx236 (talk) 07:38, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eišiškės, Lithuania