Talk:Micronation/Archive 1

message: This page has been protected due to an edit war. -- Viajero 21:10, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: This is exactly the place to discuss the article with your adversaries. Talk and compromise, or revert and get the page protected. Simple as that. Kosebamse 10:10, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: But that is not the meaning of the word: one cannot change its meaning to suit one's own preference. -- Kwekubo 22:01, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page protected 

message: Article links to Nova Roma, but there is no article there; it redirects to New Rome, which is irrelevant.
Article also links to Republic of Talossa, which redirects back to this article.
Probably due to people going on vendettas to remove references to micronations from Wikipedia.  Is there an actual policy on micronations for Wikipedia, or is it just most-persistent rules out here? Jdavidb 21:07, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Useless links 

message: I would like to report that this page is being vandalised by Gene_poole, the author of many micronational articles such as the Empire of Atlantium, Hutt River Province, Rose Island, and Sealand, and who seems to have complained about vandalism himself in the past. It is interesting to note that Gene Poole can also be reached at the Atlantium email address.
The Fifth World is an offshoot of the micronational phenomena, and thus can be legitimately placed and mentioned in an article about micronationalism. Any reason for keeping the Fifth World movement out can only be arbitrary and POV. Let me also point out that the well-written Italian version of the article also mentions 8 categories of micronations, and it also mentions Fifth World nations.
None of the micronations that Gene Poole mentions owns an  alternate root top-level domain, none of these micronations owns IPv4 networks, and none of these micronations has any real bank credit, unlike some Fifth World nations, and even the Fifth World Council itself.
I would like to suggest to Gene Poole that he stick to editing articles about the nations he does know something about, and leave the nations from which he has received donations alone, if he doesn't want trouble in the future.
--
The above contributor is encouraged to cease interpolating irrelevant "Fifth World" content into this and other articles (including foreign language articles). These fantasies are not an "offshoot" of anything - apart from the author's overly fertile imagination. Nor are they acknowledged as having any form of relevance or currency by anyone aside from this same single paranoid author.--Gene_poole 02:08, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 2 

message: Belgsoc appears to be a disgruntled former member of the above group who is attempting to interpolate irrelevant content and external links about an undocumented (probably fictitious) alternative Roman re-enactment group into the article, in preference to that of Nova Roma.--Gene_poole 06:04, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Gene, we went over this on the votes for deletion page for Nova Roma; You keep reverting edits that mark Nova Roma as an "Exercise in fantasy or creative fiction" instead of a "Social, economic or political simulation".  Why is this? Samboy 20:37, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: Gene, you are breaking the three-revert rule.  Are we going to have to report you on the Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration page?  There are at least two people, in addition to myself, who are members of Nova Roma who do not feel that Nova Roma is a micronation.  So why do you keep insisting it is one, in spite of the general consensus here going against your ideas? Samboy 05:18, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: You do not seem to grasp the simple fact that what you feel is totally and completely irrelevant to this - any any other -  discussion. If you are not prepared to deal with cold hard facts then you should not be editing articles on Wikipedia. Nova Roma is included in the Micronation article because that is exactly how the group describes itself, at great length, on their own website! As an alleged member of the group you seem disturbingly unfamiliar with this fundamental fact of Nova Roma's reality. In any case, I would be delighted to hear your explanation of how a group that describes itself as a micronation is somehow not a micronation.--Gene_poole 05:46, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: (Note: "Gene Poole" is a psudonym; his real name is George Cruickshank and he calls himself the "Emperor" of Atlantium) To clarify: I'm not a member of Nova Roma, and have never been involved in this group, except to vote for their article to be deleted.  Samboy 20:19, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Note to admins: I am noting the above comment as further evidence of Samboy's tendency to lie, and then to change his story, as part of what appears to be a nascent campaign of personal vilification against another editor. As shown above Samboy, appearing to have an axe to grind, is interested only in petty point scoring, and does not respond to any of the preceding valid points of discussion.--Gene_poole 20:56, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: As an aside, "Gene Poole" is really George Cruickshank, "Emperor" of Atlantium.  Samboy 17:34, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nova Roma interpolations 

message: The crank editor Samboy has started a revert war over the entry for the above. He is attempting to interpolate the entry for Bucksfan into the Entities Created for an Agenda section when it in fact belongs in the Internet Fantasy section. There is no evidence at all to suggest that the "Kingdom of Bucksfan" consists of more than 1 person with a few web pages. He is also deleting references to claims made by the "King of Bucksfan" otherwhise known as IndigoGenius that he is a "god" and a "genius". The latter claim, along with that editor's well-known contempt for Wikipedia community standards can be found on his own user page:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:IndigoGenius --Gene_poole 02:17, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You may not think that the Son of God is not here on Earth, Gene Poole, but one day his angels will smash down your door in the middle of the night. Large angels... And you won't be able to call the police, because even the police will run away from them, the real Aryans... You will see what the "children" of the Son of God look like. --IndigoGenius 02:26, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I do appreciate your positive contributions to this page, "Gene".  You are actually an excellent editor when you are not trying to defend your own micronation, or trying to attack other micronations, or trying to defend micronations you consider more significant than your own micronation.  But, you do get abusive and go off the handle when getting in to micronation debates.  Samboy 03:20, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: As an update, I do not think it is appropriate to remove the link to Kingdom of Bucksfan; I have restored the link.  I think we need some more consensus before just removing the link. Samboy 03:41, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Kingdom of Bucksfan

message: I feel that we should remove all references to Empire of Atlantium here; George Cruickshank, "Emperor of Atlantium" (a.k.a. "Gene Poole") is violating the no-self-promotion rule by trying to promote his own micronation here.  If Atlantium is notable enough to put on this page, someone besides its own emperor should do so. Samboy 08:24, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You have ignored my request for mediation.  Why is this? Samboy 08:40, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I will initiate mediation when I have sufficient evidence to ensure you are taught that you cannot indefinitely get away with treating others with contempt. Given the current rate that you are digging yourself into a hole, I anticipate that being about 2 days from now. --Gene_poole 08:48, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: George, you have treated a lot of people with contempt yourself.  For example, you have treated John with contempt by stating "If you want to conduct a debate that's supported solely by your POV rather than actual evidence, then frustration will be an inevitable outcome. You can hardly blame me for that."; you have treated Exploding boy with contempt by stating "It is not possible to engage in rational discourse with those who don't even appear to have the limited intelligence necessary to read and understand simple English sentence structure".   You have treated Cesidio Tallini with contempt by trying to put the following abusive paragraph in this Micronation article:  "The Kingdom of Bucksfan, an internet-based fantasy created by one Cesidio Tallini, who amongst other things, believes himself to be a god and a genius, although these asertions are unsupported by available evidence. Tallini refers to Bucksfan as being part of the Fifth World - a New Age concept of limited currency, derived from Hopi mythology.".  You have been very abusive to a lot of people, George, and are being very abusive to me.  But, I won't back down.  I will not let you intimidate me, the way you have intimidated a lot of editors.  Samboy 09:01, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Save it for mediation.--Gene_poole 09:30, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: And do not refer to me by my first name. That priviledge is reserved for my friends.--Gene_poole 09:32, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Mr. Cruickshank, I will not call you by your first name, but please do not call me "Sambo" either.  Samboy 09:50, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: But then again, according to the definition given, Sealand and the Hutt River Province would also not be micronations.  Peter O. (Talk) 03:25, Aug 14, 2004 (UTC)
I could go either way.  There is a claim of sovereignty, but it's unclear what exactly that sovereignty is supposed to entail, as the vast majority of residents live outside the claimed territory (and all of them apparently work outside it).  It's really just a political advocacy group.  That said, if there is verifiable evidence that this is called a micronation, we should probably include a mention here.
Either way I'd urge Mr. Cruickshank not to engage in an edit war on the article page.  This is a long term issue which will not be won by edit warring.  Instead, he should present his arguments here, and we should make legitimate points against them, or listen to him. Ultimately I don't see the harm in mentioning Atlantium here, at least not if it is referred to by some as a micronation. anthony (see warning) 13:37, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Remove ''all'' references to Empire of Atlantium

message: Samboy has repeatedly objected to the inclusion of legitimate data concerning the Kingdom of Bucksfan - an entity created by IndigoGenius - with whom he has colluded on recent vandalisation and failed VfD attempts - into this article. I believe that the following paragraph, which I wrote, and which Samboy has sought to delete is an accurate, verifiable and truthful representation of facts concerning this entity, and I will therefore provide a line-by-line analysis of the reasons why this is so. Unless Samboy or any other editor elects to provide a line-by-line refutation based on contrary empirical evidence I intend to re-insert this paragraph into the article in due course:
The Kingdom of Bucksfan, an internet-based fantasy created by one Cesidio Tallini, who amongst other things, believes himself to be a god and a genius, although these asertions are unsupported by available evidence. Tallini refers to Bucksfan as being part of the Fifth World - a New Age concept of limited currency, derived from Hopi mythology.  
*The Kingdom of Bucksfan, an internet-based fantasy
*TRUE. The Kingdom of Bucksfan does not exist in any tangible form. It has not produced a single empirically verifiable tangible artefact, or any evidence that it exists outside a group of internet pages owned and maintained by one person.  
*created by one Cesidio Tallini, 
*TRUE. Tallini claims to be the sole founder of the Kingdom of Bucksfan on numerous self-published websites.
*who amongst other things, believes himself to be a god and a genius, 
*TRUE. Tallini has repeatedly stated as much on numerous self-published websites, on his Wikipedia user page, and on various online forums. He has also claimed to be the dean of a university, a brilliant original thinker, the harbinger of a “new age” and various other ridiculous self-referential formulations on various self-published websites and in various online forums.
*although these asertions are unsupported by available evidence.
*TRUE. No empirical evidence exists to suggest that Cesidio Tallini is a god, a genius, a university dean, a harbinger of change – or indeed anything other than a technology-savvy male resident of New York State.
*Tallini refers to Bucksfan as being part of the Fifth World
*TRUE. Tallini does so repeatedly on numerous self-published websites.
*a New Age concept of limited currency, derived from Hopi mythology.
*TRUE. The “Fifth World” is a New Age notion, that has an extremely limited usage (limited chiefly to Cesidio Tallini), and is stolen from Hopi Native American mythology.
--Gene_poole 10:34, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Insertion of legitimate data concerning Kingdom of Bucksfan 

message: "Gene Poole" (Disclaimer: "Gene Poole" is a psudonym; he is really Mr. George Cruickshank and considers himself the "emperor" of Atlantium), in the latest edit war, is claiming that the edits of Gzornenplatz are vandalism.  This is not true.  It's an editing dispute; if "Gene Poole" wishes to take it to mediation or arbitration, I would like my voice to be heard too.  I am reverting "Gene"'s edits until a third party feels that Gzornenplatz's changes are unreasonable.  Samboy 23:55, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Really, Mr. Cruickshank. Do you really believe that this is vandalism?  How do you explain this and this?
Samboy 21:10, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I know that you have a fantasy in your head that it is vandalism.  Please believe me, Mr. Cruickshank, that this is a fantasy with no basis in reality.  I don't think it is vandalism, nor does this person or this person.  I know you have something broken in you that makes you thing something that is a fantasy in your head has objective reality, but please let go of the fantasy that this is vandalism.  Samboy 22:27, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Those reviewing this page may wish to note Samboy's (a) use of personal abuse above, and (b) continued failure to respond to or cite sources to support the irrefutably false content he is attempting to interpolate into this article. --Gene_poole 22:59, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: It's not Vandalism

message: As neither Gzornenplatz nor Samboy have provided any third party sources on this talk page to support the POV that they are repeatedly attempting to interpolate into this article, nor have they rationally responded to the sources cited by me in this page that disagree with their POV, I have properly reported the actions of Gzornenplatz, who initiated this instance of edit warring, as vandalism. If Samboy persists in vandalising the article I intend reporting his actions similarly. I will continue to restore the legitimate content of this article for as long as necessary. --Gene_poole 00:12, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not vandalism, it's an edit war.  And you know it. Samboy 00:30, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Documented Article Vandalism

message: A new one, seems notable.  add to list. Dunc_Harris|☺ 22:15, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Republic of New Africa]] 

message: Another one to add to the list. Dunc_Harris|☺ 18:19, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Long Republic]] 

message: Please note repeated interpolations of irrefutably false content into this article by  Gzornenplatz and Samboy. Interpolations by these editors are unsupported by documented citations. Continued removal of false content is supported by the multiple citations noted by me in the "Microstate vs Micronation" section above. --Gene_poole 03:22, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Spurious Content Interpolation: Notice to Admins

message: I hereby declare that I maintain the disputes raised before regarding the POV nature of the term "micronation" as used here, contrary to its dictionary meaning, as well as regarding the misinformation link to Gene Poole's website that mixes real entities like Biafra and Katanga, which led to wars causing the deaths of millions, with trivial nonsense like his apartment-empire Atlantium. Gzornenplatz 13:37, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)
:As Gzornenplatz produced no evidence whatsoever in support of either of his above POV assertions during the more than generous period of 7 weeks I allowed for him to do so (as per my post of 19 September, above), and as it appears on the basis of his flippant comments immediately above that he evidently has no intention of doing so in the forseeable future, I will assume henceforth that his alleged dispute on this subject is an invented nonsense designed to sow controversy where no controversy actually exists, and I will therefore respond accordingly, in the interests of responsible editing.--Gene_poole 13:46, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your assertions, and I, as you well know, am no fan of Gene Poole (For example: I am enjoying being flamed by him here right now, just as you are enjoying being flamed by him).  That said, it may be better to bring up the issues here before getting in to yet another revert war.  Quite frankly, Wikipedia is a place where we sometimes concede to consensus.  If you have an issue with an editor's edit, create a vote here, or get someone like Showspinner to help resolve things, put the issue up on the requests for comment page, whatever.  Wikipedia is a community project.  This is its strength and its weakness.  Things don't always go your way here.  Doing non-stop reverts is not productive to Wikipedia, not productive to your stress level, and not productive for whatever editor you are in a revert war with.  In other words, chill out, be patient, and let consensus take its course here. Samboy 07:32, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute notice 

message: Please keep in mind the rules about personal attacks have recently changed.  In particular, check out Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks. Samboy 23:19, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Personal attacks