Talk:Sub-replacement fertility

message: I suggest linking not to State such as Mongolia but at demographics of states Demographics of Mongolia
Hope you don't mind...I added some countries to the sub-   replacement list and fixed some grammar errors/typos. Countries I added include Turkey, Algeria (below replacement), Laos, and the Philippines(these 2 are above replacement). Maybe I'll add more later.
--JPan 20:02, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Yea, I'm not convinced on the "American exception". Growth from immigration does not count as natural growth from high fertility. Someone created an "American exception" in Demographic-economic paradox too. Jigen III 15:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Proletariat - name of the people you described. I don't know a name for the phenomenon. Jigen III 15:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Various comments

message: Image:Fertility rate world map.PNG
:I didn't find the <1.00 legend,hoping someone adding the fertility under 1.00,it seems that Hong Kong and Singapour are below 1.00.--Ksyrie 12:09, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Where source(s) were used to make the fertility rate world map?Gary 01:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: for the image

message: I found four mistakes while reading this article. All of them dealing with spelling and coherent writing. There should be more emphasis on writing to effectively convey the information, not just writing it for the sake of doing it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.11.38.122 (talk) 06:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mistakes while reading 

message: I placed disputed and unreferenced tags on this section; some of it seems inaccurate (Australia's recent demographic history does not seem to fit the US model, neither do the Nordic countries) and the interpretation placed upon US regional variations in the birth rate looks like WP:OR.Pondle (talk) 19:08, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The American Exception 

message: The Economist, Vol 393, Number 8655, had a headline article on this subject. See Economist.com/fertilitysources for a full of of sources.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.158.69.134 (talk) 06:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: There is some controversy about the economic impact of an ageing population.
At first glance it would appear that countries with large ageing populations
could be overwhelmed by increased pension and healthcare payments.
However this may be offset by the economic benefits of smaller families.
In a report to the British government in 2006 economist and chair of the UK Pensions
Commission, Sir Adair Turner said that 
"It is also important to understand that this negative effect of low fertility is offset by
some powerful economic benefits of smaller families and low population growth. Smaller 
families mean less expenditure on rearing children and on education:" he continues
"smaller families mean that people on average inherit more housing capital"
According to OptimumPopulation there is also the 
economic costs of population growth. Increased expenditure on roads, housing, sewage
and other infrastructure to accommodate the rising population. In the UK 43% of 
young people go into higher education and are dependents well into their 20s.
British economist Phil Mullan in The imaginary time bomb
believes no-one has come up with a compelling case why aging would be so burdensome. 
The anxiety about aging is misplaced. 
Argentina is far from a developed nation.  Many of it's citizens migrate to MEXICO, another 3rd world country.  A predomaninantly white population a developed nation does not make. I'm editing accordingly
Wikid-savage (talk) 11:42, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relation between ageing population and economic burden 

message: According to recent statistics, Iceland's fertility rate is closer 2.2, which means it should be color coded green. Source (scroll down to fertility section): http://eng.velferdarraduneyti.is/departments/gender-equality/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zurkhardo (talk • contribs) 16:59, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update for Iceland  

message: During the 19th century France's population was growing much more slowly than surrounding countries.
TMBTC (talk) 04:33, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  France 

message: Interesting data to possibly add: 
"Although less educated women are a shrinking share of all new mothers, less educated women still have a higher average number of births throughout their lifetime than more educated women. By the end of their childbearing years, women without a high school diploma have on average 2.5 children, and women with a bachelor’s degree have about 1.7. This gap has closed only slightly over the past 25 years" 
Although I did not read the whole report, I wonder if they considered the relative percentages of women getting an education over time, which would give a much simpler explanation of causation.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hippypink (talk • contribs) 08:50, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Education and % of new mothers 

message: The Emperor Tiberius, not Julius Caesar, lectured the Roman knights on not having enough children: http://lexundria.com/dio/56/cy --125.253.96.70 (talk) 16:06, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misattributed quote 

message: Does anyone have a strong opinion on the removal of this section or, at least, significantly trimming it? Most of the claims go without citation and sound more like opinion than fact. Edits were made by 86.25.172.21 around Oct 2014, for those curious about what I'm referring to.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamesb2147 (talk • contribs) 18:36, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  HIV section 

message: The overcrowding hypothesis is not original research as mentioned in this NIMH published article
http://tomax7.com/HeyGod/misc/MousePopulationStudy.PDF
Also the primary sources of antiquity support a sub-replacement fertility in those civilizations that were highly urbanized.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234%3Abook%3D37%3Achapter%3D9
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JdGQNIxBMh0C&redir_esc=y
According to the studies John B Calhoun and using the theory of the Behavioral Sink as humanity spends more time living in high density overcrowded conditions the fertility rate should decrease over a generational period of time. The study suggests that humans who have evolved in low-density conditions are socially unprepared for life in high-density conditions. The violation of the Dunbar number seems to have consequences that may decrease the fertility of a group over time. Also many Ancient civilizations who have lived under high-density conditions such as the highly urbanized Ancient Greeks and Ancient Romans seemed to have suffered rapid depopulation at the end of their existence which can be found in the archaeological evidence of Late Antiquity. Also the Greek Polybius describes the dearth of children that he observed in Ancient Greece
- 
And Cassius Dio a historian who lived in Ancient Rome documented the low birth rates that were affecting the Roman nobility.
- 
Low-density nations who lived close to these civilizations eventually took over their territory as is usually described by the Barbarian invasions. Also between 1206 and 1150 BC, the cultural collapse of the Mycenaean kingdoms, the Hittite Empire in Anatolia and Syria,[1] and the New Kingdom of Egypt called the Bronze Age Collapse can be attributed to sub replacement fertility rates due to overcrowding in those civilizations. The fairly rapid depopulation and abandonment of  most cities in those civilizations can be attributed to low fertility rates. Further back the urban Minoan and Sumerian civilizations were also depopulated, and their territory was later taken over by people who lived under low density conditions that lived nearby.
 Demographic-economic paradox also supports this theory as the richer nations are highly urbanized.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Promet14 (talk • contribs) 04:59, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I can accept the mention of these observances in the section Sub-replacement_fertility#Historical_effects, but I see no evidence here that overcrowding in itself is a cause of sub-replacement fertility. The demographic-economic paradox concerns income and fertility, which also is a confounder to relate overcrowding with fertility. We have contradictory examples, with Nigeria having both a high population density and a high total fertility rate. Therefore, we need more sources that explicitly mention overcrowding as a separate parameter if we are to mention it. Mikael Häggström (talk) 09:09, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

text: There is a separate section for the urbanization effect: Sub-replacement_fertility#Urbanization. Animal research would more appropriately fit at Fecundity. With these existing subjects given, I see little material to support the addition of a separate "Overcrowding" section. Mikael Häggström (talk) 18:32, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overcrowding 

message: I'm rather surprised that not once in the entire article are the obvious effects of feminism on birthrates mentioned, nor does the word itself even make an appearance. I think too highly of Wikipedia to accuse anyone of specifically censoring mention of feminism, so let's talk about it. We could condense a few of these sections right into a feminism subheading and I think it would improve the article.
* Women, no longer needing to find a man and depend on him for her well-being and financial security as in ages past, end up doing things other than getting married and having children for a long time. For some, they might be building up their careers well into their 30's, past the prime fertility age. 
* Marriage itself has been eroded by feminism (at least in the United States) to the point where it is no longer a safe strategy for men. No-fault divorces, unenforceable nuptial agreements, disproportionately losing custody battles, signing away half of assets in most marriages among other things. Marriage is a bad idea for men in the 21st century, and women need men to raise large, stable families (and vice versa).
* Thanks to the changes wrought by feminism, women are expected to do more than stay home and raise children (and indeed, face criticism from feminists if they want to be stay-at-home mothers). A woman who has to divide her attentions between breadwinning and childrearing will in all likelihood have a smaller family.
There are other effects of feminism that I haven't mentioned, but this is just a starting point for what I hope will be a discussion and eventually an addition to or condensation of the article. Thoughts?
71.231.183.97 (talk) 09:48, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Feminism is the elephant in the room 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: with covid and worsening demographies of multiple countries, is there a more updated forcast for population growth than one from 2012?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.49.6.225 (talk) 08:07, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, the forecasts have surely changed; AFAIK, fertility has gone down even faster than expected in the wake of the pandemic. Global Cerebral Ischemia (talk) 00:38, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  forecast updates? 

message: The initial definition of this article’s subject is incorrect because it excludes areas that should meet the requirements but have excessive immigration, which maintains population despite lowest-low fertility. 2600:8803:C40B:F900:E094:2BD0:D6E:F1AE (talk) 00:20, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: What exactly are you referring to? The initial definition pertains only to fertility. In fact, the lead mentions a number of countries that have growing populations despite sub-replacement fertility. "Nonetheless most of these countries still have growing populations due to immigration, population momentum and increase of the life expectancy." Global Cerebral Ischemia (talk) 00:35, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definitional Error 

message: Under "Reduction of child labour" it says "in high-income nations, child labour is banned". Child labor isn't banned (at least not in the US), it's just highly regulated.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:0:1003:315:8D6A:9235:E238:A9D3 (talk) 15:26, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Child Labor 

message: It has been shown, both historically and in the present day, that societies engaged in a prolonged state of war experience a substantial lag in fertility rate. The most notable examples of this phenomenon are accredited to the First and Second World Wars. Modeled by these examples, total war subjects individuals to intense social upheavals and a heavy psychological impact that forcefully prioritizes survival and economic stability over the need to reproduce for the duration of the conflict. Events like these subsequently pave way Haupt, A., Kane, T. T., & Haub, C. (2011). PRB's population handbook. Population reference bureau (sixth edition). for an active effort to repopulate, such as the "baby boom" after the Second World War.
 Biohistorian15 (talk) 16:07, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  War (formerly sub-entry)