Talk:Arguments against the existence of God

message: Anyone want to try removing the NPOV tag? Since there is a wiki article on the other side of this debate (arguments for), it seems wiki as a whole conforms to NPOV. Also, NPOV violation would be something like "people who argue against the existance of God are ignorant idiots". This article seems to outline the logical arguments w/out straying to editorialism. I'll remove the tag and see what happens.Feco 23:25, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove NPOV tag? 

message: It is not at all clear to me what the Halting problem has to do with any argument against the existence of God. I think some explanation is required. -Rholton (aka Anthropos) 22:53, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Halting problem

message: What does this have to do w a theological argument against God? I can see using occoms razor to inductively suggest the existence of God due to the simplicty and utility of such a belief, but as an argument against? Would you seriously ussggest that... evoloution for example is simpler than creationism? Or that "because God wills it" is anything other than the simplest answer to a given question? Sam [Spade] 03:52, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The Ockham's Razor argument proposes that God is rendered an "unnecessary complication" because there is no evidence that requires such a being to explain the way the universe works. Whether you personally believe that or not, it's an argument that is very common in atheism circles. This also happens to be the position that the paragraph you're snipping mention of it from is describing, so it is both accurate and relevant there. Bryan 04:01, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: atheism is not agnosticism, we've discussed this dozens of times bryan. Atheism denies God, agnosticism reseves judgement. Sam [Spade] 03:56, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, we have discussed this many times, and you're still wrong. Atheism does not necessarily actively deny the existance of God, and you're simply wrong in insisting that it does. Bryan 04:01, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Then your not talking about atheism. Anyways the article is about arguments against, not the lack of need for arguments. Any comment about occom? Sam [Spade] 04:06, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The "denial by default" approach is an argument against; it's an argument that one needn't believe in something unless there's some compelling reason to, with the further position that there's no compelling reason to believe in the existance of gods. This is the very first argument type that's linked to in the article, I think it's quite relevant to point out how it's related to the paragraph in question. Bryan 04:16, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: God is of course the simplest answer, and he accounts for all facts. Sam [Spade] 04:11, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Your "of course" above is POV. You're proposing an omnipotent, omniscient, intelligent entity as the simplest way to account for all facts? Bryan 04:16, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: right, but more specifically I am questioning what important (non-wiki) personage proposed occoms razor as an argument against God? Sam [Spade] 04:21, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't care all that much who makes arguments, I'm more concerned with what the argument is. In this case, the paragraph about the burden of proof being on the theists is essentially describing the Ockham's Razor argument, and I'm trying to point that out. I don't see how it's relevant what "important personages" hold that view here. Bryan 04:26, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: I quite agree with Bryan. Re: O's razor: , , , , . Some of these are rather longish; search for "Razor" to find relevant passages. older≠wiser 04:33, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: You're talking like a conspiracy monger now Sam. It should be obvious from perusing a sampling that it is NOT an original argument to use O's razor as an argument against the existence of god. older≠wiser 04:40, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I'm still not sure why an "important personage's" name is needed here in the first place; I'm only trying to point out that the argument that's being described in that paragraph is based on Ockham's Razor, not talking about who has used it before or when. The description matches, it's hardly original research to note that. Bryan 04:46, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Ockham's Razor]] 

message: You were right, I got carried away w "NPOV" and lost the forest in the trees, as it were. Appologies. Sam [Spade] 03:55, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: 'sokay. I was careful to explain my reasoning and include a link backing my change up, and you were willing to consider it and change your mind based on it; working together we have managed to avoid conflict. Yay team! :) Bryan 03:59, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  apparent 

message: I would like to create some unity on the for/against God pages. I think we can find our way to agreeing on the best way to quantify and categorize the debate thru premises. IMO if one accepts certain premises they will be atheist, and with others a theist. This assumes proper reasoning of course ;).There is also obviously the opportunity for poor reasoning leading to either conclusion. Experience clearly affects the premises a given person chooses to accept. Some turn away from theism due to tragedy, and others turn toward God after a personal revelation. But always there is some basis for their belief or lack thereof, if not logical than cultural, emotional, psychological etc... Thoughts?
Sam [Spade] 04:06, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Tricky. Just making big lists of the various arguments seems relatively noncontroversial, since it's mostly just "some people say this, some people say that." But if you try to come up with a unified structure trying to say why all those people say those things, I suspect you're almost certain to encounter disagreement. Perhaps it would be best to attempt this in stages; first try to come up with a list of various possible premises, and only later try to group them in an organized way (if possible). Bryan 04:34, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, and I don't even have a hard and fast list in mind. Its the concept I ment to express, and one I would expect to take some time and attention to implement. The question is, what are these premises? Sam [Spade] 06:04, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: These look like "philosophies" rather than "premises" to me. A premise is a statement that one assumes is true for purposes of argument, such as "all events must have a preceeding cause" for example. Bryan 06:02, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: Yes, but they're much broader and more vague. A premise is a specific statement that is defined to be true, whereas a philsophy in this context is a world view - a comprehensive set of opinions about the world, with flexibility over how many of the details can be interpreted. For example, would a nihilist be more likely to believe no gods exist or to believe in a religion focused on eschatology? A case could be made for either of those interpretations, and I suspect you'll find many nihilists in both camps. I think you'll need to make those "basics which an adherent holds true" explicit, which means focusing on premises. Bryan 06:35, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Premises]]

message: *Pragmatism vs. rationalism
*Nihilism vs. traditionalism
:These look like "philosophies" rather than "premises" to me. A premise is a statement that one assumes is true for purposes of argument, such as "all events must have a preceeding cause" for example. Bryan 06:02, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but they're much broader and more vague. A premise is a specific statement that is defined to be true, whereas a philsophy in this context is a world view - a comprehensive set of opinions about the world, with flexibility over how many of the details can be interpreted. For example, would a nihilist be more likely to believe no gods exist or to believe in a religion focused on eschatology? A case could be made for either of those interpretations, and I suspect you'll find many nihilists in both camps. I think you'll need to make those "basics which an adherent holds true" explicit, which means focusing on premises. Bryan 06:35, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Potential premises

message: This article seems like only half of a POV article.  I think that to be NPOV, this fact should be made clear (and a link to the other half provided) early in the article instead of at the end.  --L33tminion | (talk) 05:48, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
:I agree. Sam [Spade] 12:02, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this Inheriently POV? 

message: I have removed the following:
:Opponents of the Cosmological Argument for the existence of God may argue that if the supposed concept of God as a 'first cause' of the universe is viable, then why is the concept of the Big Bang any less so? Some may even go further to suppose that "maybe the Big Bang is God". As ridiculous as this statement may seem, it illustrates the important point that, as a so-called first cause, who are we to define the nature of that cause, especially since God, despite efforts to the contrary, will inevitably be anthropomorphised to an extent; indeed, the very concept of a 'being' within the known environment of the universe (which, since the dawn of humankind has not actually yet exhibited any concrete evidence of any 'beings' other than ourselves), known to us as something which can never be defined or understood seems somewhat fantastical, when compared with an observed phenomenon that is being increasingly well documented and brought into the realms of our scientific understanding. In other words, can we truly apply an objective logic that supposes that a first cause of the universe could not be something as apparently 'abstract' as the quantum processes thought to be involved with the Big Bang? Ultimately, this problem stems into more than just the issue of the existence of God: it also begins to involve the nature of God.
Criticism of the cosmological argument is already properly located under under "Argument justifying atheism in general" later in the article.  Further, it is unreferenced and POV-worded.  This elaboration belongs under criticisms in the cosmological argument article, if anywhere.--Johnstone 01:06, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion of POV elaboration on anti-cosmological argument

message: *Arguments regarding the existence of God
*Arguments for or against the existence of God
*Existence of God
I strongly prefer Existence of God, our goal needs to be making the title something a reader might concievably type in to the search bar. Think of the readers, and what title will best assist them. Anyways, I tried to  list the proposed titles above. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 01:26, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: With any of the proposed titles for the combined article, a reader who types "Existence of God" into the search bar will find it, since that is a phrase contained in all proposed titles.  Having said that, I do agree that brevity is preferred, I just think that "Existence of God" is slightly misleading, where "Arguments about the existence of God" is not.  Overall not a big deal for me, though.  Zashaw 01:59, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: Okay, it seems pretty clear that the consensus is in favor of the merger. I'll go put up the notices. I'd advise moving any outstanding discussions to Talk:Existence of God. crazyeddie 03:41, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging... 

message: Any objections to making Arguments for the existence of God and Arguments against the existence of God redirects to Existence of God? crazyeddie 5 July 2005 18:42 (UTC)
L I already gave all the objections needed. If you think this merger will silence the atheist contingent, you're wrong. I'm going to watch over that page like a hawk.  Franc28 July 5, 2005 21:49 (UTC)
I certainly hope that it won't silence the atheist contingent, since I'm a card carrying member! Well, not actually card carrying, but give me moment with some cardboard and magic marker... crazyeddie 5 July 2005 22:06 (UTC)
Clarification: Last I checked, there was a pretty clear consensus in favor of the merger. So I'm not actually asking "Is this a good idea?", but "Should we do this now or wait a bit?" crazyeddie 6 July 2005 18:27 (UTC)
(One revert later...) Okey dokey, I'll ask it again. Is there anything that still has to be done (aside from removing the links back to the original unmerged articles, which need to stay up until the merger is complete) before we make Arguments for the existence of God and Arguments against the existence of God redirects to Existence of God? crazyeddie 08:48, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Last Call