Talk:Clotted cream

message: "When clotted cream is not commercially available..." - this implies that there are places where you can't easily get hold of the stuff. (I'm British, so don't have this problem.) Where might those places be? You don't see "When ranch dressing is not commercially available" on its page, after all, despite the fact that many people in the UK have never heard of it! 86.143.48.55 (talk) 18:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, virtually none is not the same as none, and the statement is sourced. English import places is hardly a mass market (to the best of my knowledge), but if you have a source which confirms that there is a significant amount of clotted cream imported to the US, then I agree we should be putting it in. Unfortunately, anecdotal evidence is not sufficient. WormTT 09:39, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not suggesting adding my anecdotal evidence, merely that this questionable statement, sourced or not, published or not, adds nothing to the article.  Wherever I've lived in the U.S. -- California most of my life Arizona in the late 70s and Maryland at the time the article that statement is from was published -- I could buy it in any number of places.  IOW, pretty readily available. So, the statement is obviously incorrect, and that is good reason remove it.Zlama (talk) 07:15, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a little difficult for me to comment, since I haven't lived in USA since I was a child and for all I know ever supermarket has massive displays of clotted cream every week. All I have is a source which says different. I added "in 1985" as a qualifier, but I feel the prevelance of the cream in the UK but lack in the US is relevent and does add to the article. WormTT 09:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where isn't it available? 

message: I have to question whether the term 'devonshire cream tea' is in general use - I live in Devon and I've never come across this term before. The few occasions when I've heard the term 'Devonshire' used in serious conversation is when someone (generally someone not native to Britain) genuinely doesn't know that Devon isn't a Shire county. 
Also, how is this relevant to the topic? This, like the issue of whether cream or jam goes on first, shouldn't be on the clotted cream page. Rather if it is deemed to be a pertinent piece of information it should surely be on the cream tea page. Crydwyn (talk) 19:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't say where I originally saw "Devonshire cream tea," but I do know it was in several books, set in England, that I had read.  In fact, when a friend and I made up our list of must do/see for our trip to England many years ago, a Devonshire cream tea was on the list for both of us.  ;)  Of course, we read many of the same authors...it really just means a cream tea in Devon.  As for Devon"shire," can't really comment on the correctness or otherwise of the adjective, but that's the way it was stated in the books we both had read so you know where it came from, at least. Zlama (talk) 00:19, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Devonshire cream tea??? 

message: As the header says, the external link at the bottom doesn't point to what it should do. 87.194.40.167 (talk) 20:15, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broken link 

message: Is the heating of unpasteurised milk to form clotted cream using the same or similar process as in the production of curds (specifically, with lactic acid bacteria promoting the process)? 92.39.196.35 (talk) 00:34, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, this is a totally different process.  I got the same result by accidentally leaving a carton of heavy cream out on top of the fridge overnight -- a very thick, buttery cream had risen to the top.  For curds, you need an acidifier (I guess that's the term), like lemon juice or added lactic acid or something similar.  Clotted cream isn't really "clotted" but is smooth and thick, spreadable, so not at all like curds.  HTH.  Zlama (talk) 00:22, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mode of production 

message: Unpasteurized or raw milk is available for sale in the United States if you know where to look.  My question is whether people mean unpasteurized or homogenized milk... Pasteurization kills microbes present in the milk, whereas homogenization makes the fat cells smaller and more uniform to keep the cream from separating from the milk... Can someone clear this up for me?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Riboflavin2 (talk • contribs) 15:01, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Clotted cream does have to be made from unpasteurized milk - the pasteurization does have enough effect on the fat cells to prevent it clotting properly. My mum has old cookery books from pre-homogenization days which say to use unpasteurized for clotted cream. DuncanHill (talk) 21:04, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

text: I'm a little dubious about this anecdote. I believe that you may have warmed pasteurized whipping cream to thicken and found a reasonable substitute, but that is not "clotted cream" which is produced in a specific way and includes the crust and unique flavour. I'm afraid we'd have to have a reliable source to contradict the multiple sources we've got which says different. WormTT 09:42, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry if this is patronizing, but, Worm honey, you seem to have mistaken this conversation page for actual changes to the article.  I'm just giving my experience with pasteurized cream, and please note that I did not apply heat, it was in a warm spot, as opposed to direct heat from a stove burner.  One of the reason the "true" clotted cream made in the trad way has the crust is because it is made in large, shallow pans with probably 25% of the liquid exposed to the air where it dries out a bit.  I've seen photos of the process, and I wish I could find one to add to this article.  But the pan used is more on the order of a jellyroll pan, only copper and a bit deeper than that.  In homes, the pan would be put at the back of the stove where it would get the warmth from cooking but not be subjected to direct heat.  So, a carton of cream sitting on top of a refrigerator on a warm day would have the indirect heat put out by the refrigerator itself, as well as the warm ambient temp, as indirect heat sources.  Once again, note that I started with cream.Zlama (talk) 07:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problem with patronising comments, indeed the clarity is helpful for newer users. Humour, if you will, my response. The purpose of a talk page in wikipedia is to discuss improvements to the article not a general discussion forum for the topic. In other words, this isn't a "conversation" page (see more at Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines and WP:NOTFORUM). You are absolutely right about the process and what you have created at home is a reasonable substitute and may well be useful to include in the wiki cook book. However, it's still not clotted cream which does require unpasteurized milk, large shallow pans and indirect heat - per a number of sources. So, if I may re-iterate, if you believe the substitute should be included in the article, it will need to be sourced. If you are just looking to discuss the cream or the substitute, this really isn't the place to do it. WormTT 09:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ha!  See we've gone around about this before.  When I give you "negative" anecdotal evidence, it is simply to say that there is a problem with the way things in the article, per this Talk topic, as published.  I'm never suggesting you add that Zlama says...  I'm not sure where your definition is coming from.  Is it as stated in the PDO requirements?  Or is it something more like historical usage, i.e., this is the way the first clotted cream was made?  It seems all moot for those of us outside the UK, since "clotted cream" imported from the UK has been available here for (wow!) more than 50 years, and is pasteurized (whether before or after production, I have no way of knowing).  So, a clotted cream from the UK, which exists some way down the continuum from the original, strict definition of clotted cream, is still being called "clotted cream" by UK sources.  So, where is this definition coming from?  Could you give the source of the definition, in so many words, here, in response to my question, if not in the article.
And it seems this Talk page is kind of out of line with the now existing format of this article, because there is no "Clotted cream" section, rather that's the subject of the article. Zlama (talk) 00:42, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unpasteurized? 

message: Before I came to live in west Cornwall, I often stayed on the farm near Zennor belonging to an old friend of the family. Almost all the farms in the area were dairy farms, and most of the cows were Channel Islands breed (Guernseys and Jerseys) which produce very high-fat milk. In those days milking was all done by hand, and every day a couple of pints of fresh milk were put in an aluminium dish on the side of the AGA (a solid fuel range cooker) which raised the milk to about blood heat. By teatime in the afternoon the cream would have gently risen forming a crust on top of the quite stiff cream, with a little watery milk below. The cream was carefully lifted off and put on the tea table, where it would be devoured with great relish. (Always cream on the splits - never scones - then the jam.)
It was always my understanding that Devon cream is produced by heating the milk to a much higher temperature (even to boiling point?) and the resultant flavour is very different. Cristofa (talk) 15:11, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  How Cornish clotted cream was made. 

message: Just want to thank User:Worm That Turned for the rewrite and expansion of this article. I think it's definitely at least C-class now. Maybe needs a description of what the cream looks and tastes like (for those poor souls who have never tried it!). I've also bumped it up to mid-importance for Wikiproject Devon as it regularly appears near the top of the popular pages list.  —SMALLJIM  23:50, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad I could help! Was glancing down the Cornish popular pages list, looking for Doom Bar and was unimpressed to see such a popular page as a stub. Running out of things to say about it though, which is a pity, because I was hoping for 5x expansion... DYK!Worm 11:58, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There we go, think I've done it! Worm 13:25, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If you don't object I've got a few more changes that I think would improve it a bit. For instance I think there should be a Description section (which can be expanded) separate from History. I'll start now, if you've finished for a while!  —SMALLJIM  13:33, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That I have. I've been wracking my brains for anything more to put in, so please do add anything you can think of. Also, I've just submitted it to DYK today, feel free to add your name there! Worm 14:01, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Article rewrite

message: Re: "A 100 grams (3.5 oz) portion provides 586 kilocalories (2,450 kJ) (roughly equivalent to a 200 grams (7.1 oz) cheeseburger)" - now I love clotted cream as much as any one, but a 3.5 oz portion? That's ridiculous, far too big. DuncanHill (talk) 13:58, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd absolutely agree, I'll change it, so that it's not "a portion", since it comes in 100g tubs, I doubt anyone would have a tub to themselves! silly mistakeWorm 14:03, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, that looks better. DuncanHill (talk) 14:08, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Calories & portion size 

message: I've changed the importance rating for WP:Cornwall to Top - "Places, icons or topics recognisable or of interest to the whole UK or further", as I think clotted cream is probably one of the first things many people around the world will think of when Cornwall is mentioned. DuncanHill (talk) 14:12, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Then it's definitely a good thing the article has been improved... I do agree with you by the wayWorm 14:17, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, and thanks too for doing so much to improve the article. DuncanHill (talk) 14:27, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Two thank yous in as many days? I should sort out more high profile articles! No problems by the way :) Worm 14:33, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Importance rating for Wikiproject 

message: Would this photo of a tin that was used to send clotted cream through the post from Devon in the 1970s be worth adding to the article? Back then, it was a popular thing for people on holiday to send, and locals used to send it to their friends for Christmas, birthdays etc. - which is how I got it. Google tells me that you can still send "clotted cream by post", but I don't think it's as popular as it used to be.  —SMALLJIM  20:39, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a good idea, to show that it has been around for a while. I'd probably suggest putting it in the historic usages section, with a caption summarizing what you just said above. Worm 07:33, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've added that and a bit of explanation to the text. I tinkered around with the article a fair bit too, but I've stopped myself now.  —SMALLJIM  13:08, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  A tin from the 70s 

message: Here are some thoughts on how the article can be improved before we submit it to FAC:
*"Because of its high saturated fat content, especially relative to other creams such as single cream, which has a fat content of 18%, clotted cream is often considered to be bad for health." This sentence wrongly implies that the difference between the fat contents is what makes clotted cream unhealthy. I suggest rephrasing to avoid this implication; it may help to split this into two sentences.
*: I've had a go at rephrasing, but is "For comparison" acceptable?
* "Originally made by farmers to reduce the amount of waste from their milk, clotted cream has become so deep-rooted in the culture that it is now a tourist attraction." The culture of what? I would surmise that a good number of readers will skip directly to the History section; those readers won't have idea what the context of this sentence is.
*:
* "It is possible that it was introduced to Cornwall 2,000 years ago, when Phoenician traders went there looking for tin" The meaning of "2,000 years ago" is ambiguous. Does it mean 2000 years before 2011, or 2000 years before 1881 (publication date of the source)? I would prefer something along the lines of "around 200 BC" or some such. Alternatively, the issue can be sidestepped by a more substantial rephrasing: "It is possible that it was introduced to Cornwall by Phoenician traders, who ventured to the area in search of tin."
*: - It's clear Phoenicia is an ancient civilization by clicking on the link
*Does "thermographic records" refer to Thermographic inspection? If so, I suggest linking. 
* - not thermographic inspection, it appears that a "thermograph" is a type of chart that that records temperature. I've think I've clarified this.
*"An eulogy on a can of cream sent from a lady in Exeter." Shouldn't this say "a eulogy" rather than "an eulogy"? Perhaps there is a difference in pronunciation between British and American English, but I've never seen "an eulogy".
*: A quickie answer to the "An eulogy" question: that's the title of the poem according to the source. I'm not sure if the title should be displayed in quotes or italics - need to check the MOS.  —SMALLJIM  19:35, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre-FAC comments 

message: I know that it is also made in Herefordshire - but it's not clear which of the sources shown there are the most reliable to show in the article, or whether there are other areas in which it is manufactured.  Statements such as "in England it is only made in the south west" need to be modified slightly, in my view - but what do we think is the best wording to be used?  Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:46, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: PS: Rather than listing counties in the lead, I think it would be preferable to say "...and elsewhere" in the lead, with a listing of places of manufacture (withb refs) in the main text.  In a rush... offline most of today....  Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:03, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. I will modify my modifications. --Simple Bob a.k.a. The Spaminator (Talk) 09:18, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manufacture outside South West England 

message: Just a note for later that Worgan's General view of the agriculture of the county of Cornwall, 1815 (Google pdf) has a good description of the traditional method of making clotted cream on pp 141–3.  —SMALLJIM  13:23, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Traditional production 

message: Beyond a shadow of a doubt clotted cream is one of life's  extreme luxuries and should be tasted by everyone at least once with jam on scones.Pure bliss.Ten out of ten. Now I just need a reference.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 (talk) 03:37, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  your post should make Wikipedia come up with some sort of "stupid-ban".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.32.193.80 (talk) 21:27, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section needed on how good it tastes. 

message: Given the sentence preceding this statement under the Description section, that the fat content is a minimum of 55% but an average of 64%, I'm seeing a conflict with the USDA minimum milkfat requirement for butter being at 80% (http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3004470, page 7). The USDA standards are also cited in the butter and butterfat articles.
The cited source, while being an article originally written for the Chicago Tribune, and stating a growing interest in clotted cream within the US, does not make any mention of US classification.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.59.248.54 (talk) 00:36, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  US classification as butter? 

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