Talk:Haber process

message: I have serious doubts on the preparation of syngas, the use of ZnO as a desulfurization reagent is obsolete, as is the CO2 separation by K2CO3. maybe this was the original process, no? CO2 is nowadays removed by pressure swing adsorption, and desulphurization is also performed more modernly... Sikkema (talk) 09:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  syngas preparation 

message: The results of what exactly Nature suggested should be corrected is out... italicize each bullet point once you make the correction.   --  user:zanimum
* The statement "The process was developed by Fritz Haber and Carl Bosch in 1909 and patented in 1910." is slightly misleading.  There are early patents, one in 1908 by Haber meant to protect his process, which was discovered independent of Bosch by Haber and his co-workers, one of whom was Le Rossignol.  To be honest, the word "developed" does cover this aspect since it was Haber who "discovered" the process while it was Bosch as BASF who made it industrially viable.
* In the last sentence, 'about half' is vague enough to be misleading.
These have been corrected already. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ | Esperanza 13:50, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Errors ID'd by Nature, to correct 

message: "1% of the world's energy supply is consumed in the manufacturing of that fertilizer (Science 297(1654), Sep 2002)."
I'm assuming this should be "1% of the world's annual energy consumption …"?
--Andymussell 03:03, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  1% of the world's energy supply … 

message: I've added related links because the amonium production process is very linked to these articles
I hope ya like it
regards -- User:richardba 02:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I've added 

message: I understand the catalyst is very important to this reaction; without it the reaction would be too slow to be commercially viable. Could someone go into greater detail on that?
:Can you say more clearly what exactly you mean? The article has mentioned fully all the needed catalysts and promoters. Causesobad → (Talk) 16:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  catalyst 

message: I have rewritten the whole article, expanding it, and providing more detail on the reactions that take place. 
I used most of the previous information anyway, after just moving it around. 
A.Tomberg 20:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite 

message: Where is the hydrogen used usually sourced from? 220.253.146.79 12:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Source materials

message: There is an error in the table of equilibrium constants.  They do NOT obey van't Hoff (try plotting ln(K) vs 1/T to test it yourself).  I suspect the 25C was meant to be 100C, as that would look a lot better.  BUT, I don't have a reliable source for these constants to hand, so I cannot correct this now, I hope one of you can.  99of9 07:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Equilibrium Constants Error

message: This article is a bit of a mess - loads of information but repetitive, occasionally confusing, too chatty and informal - reads a bit like an A-level essay when it comes to describing the effects on equilibria and reaction rates.  The introductory paragraph is especially weak:
1. The Haber Process is not the reaction between nitorgen and hydrogen but it is the whole industrial set-up required to make that reaction happen in a viable manner;  
2. "The Haber process is important because ammonia is difficult to produce, on an industrial scale".  Er ... except by the Haber process... one might make the same claim for any industrial process.
3. "Even though 78.1% of the air we breathe is nitrogen, the gas is relatively inert due to the strength of the triple bond that keeps the molecule together."  Atmospheric abundance is only tenuously related to the character of the N-N bond;  "keeps the molecule together" - what is this?  marriage guidance or what???   
4. "It was not until the start of the twentieth century that this method was developed ... " Is this an implied criticism of human slackness in not coming up with this sooner...
5. "which can then be oxidised to make the nitrates and nitrites essential for the production of nitrate fertilizer and munitions."  Or not.
And that's just paragraph 1.  Unless I get flamed I might edit some of this in future... 
Galatian 12:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say go right ahead.  I agree with all of your criticisms. 99of9 13:51, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite needed

message: The inputs are (apparently) methane, air, H2O, CO, and K2CO3
The steps seem to go back and forth between CO2, H2O, and H2.
If I understand it correctly:
"Steam reforming" converts CH4 + H2O to H2 + CO2. It says there are two steps, identifies one step, but not the second step. Or is "Secondary reforming" the second step?
In "Secondary reforming", the mixture is combined with air (N2 and O2). Some of the H2 combines with the O2 to make H2O, leaving N2.
In the "two shifts", CO is added to the mixture; it takes the O from H2O, recovering the H2. (Where does the CO come from?)
The CO2 removal seems pretty straightforward.
The "Methanator" is a little obscure: how is the methane "recycled", and what becomes of the H2O generated?
I see that the bold-face numbers at the right are the N2:H2 ratios at each stage.
If this could all be stated in lay-acceptable language, it would be much easier to understand.
--Rich Rostrom (Talk) 08:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Better yet, remove it, since it has its own wikipedia entry, and the disclaimer about the source being irrelevant is correct.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Riventree (talk • contribs) 02:11, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Synthesis gas preparation" makes no sense to a non-chemist 

message: Sorry if this doesn't reflect deep thought, or recent schooling.
The article seems to say (at the highest level) that
CH4 + H2O + N2 + O2 => NH4.
Aren't we missing a few C's and O's on the output?
My misunderstanding centers on the sentence "The gas mixture is now passed into a methanator which converts any remaining CO2 into methane."
To my confused eyes, that would seem to convert exactly all of the desired output (H2) plus the undesirable CO2 back into CH4, which was the original input.
I would like to see the article directly address what comes out of this process.  Where does the C end up?  Not as endlessly recycled CH4, I guess.
Of course if this is an idiotic question, remove it.
Lllbutcher (talk) 08:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a good question. The presentation in this article is not clear and it skips some steps. According to , the CO2 is removed by "scrubbing" with a base such as potassium carbonate, and then, the remaining traces of CO (not CO2!) are hydrogenated to methane in the methanation step. While this hydrogenation is indeed the opposite of the first step in the process, it is necessary because the CO would poison the catalyst that is used for the ammonia synthesis step, and since only traces of CO remain at this point, it is not too much of a waste. Now, regarding the question of what happens to the carbon: the base that was used for the scrubbing is regenerating by heating, which releases CO2. I don't know if this just goes to the atmosphere or if it is economical to store the CO2 and sell it. But you are right, the CO2 has to go somewhere! --Itub (talk) 09:46, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where does the C go 

message: This source says nothing about the production of hydrogen from natural gas being part of the process, whereas the article implied that it was, so I have amended the article accordingly - hope that is right?Engineman (talk) 04:38, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure--the books I've seen that talk about it in detail seem to refer to the entire process as the Haber-Bosch process. There is generally a difference between a "process" (multi-step) and a single reaction, which is just one step. I suspect that a process that used H2 from electrolysis would have a different name, probably including Haber but also the other author (but I have to check). --Itub (talk) 05:33, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: what actually is the Haber Process?

message: In the book A Most Damnable Invention by Stephen Bown it says that nitrogen fixation was already known in the 1850's by other scientists and that the only thing that Fritz Haber had contributed to the process was the catalyst which was replaced with a different catalyst by Carl Bosch for the industrial production. So should Fritz Haber really deserve that much credit?
:Even if the chemical reaction itself was known for decades, being able to carry it out in a practical way was a major achievement of chemical engineering. It required the development of novel high-pressure reactors and extensive research in catalysis and chemical thermodynamics, fields which were relatively new at the time. That's why it was recognized with two Nobel Prizes. One went to Haber, and one to Bosch. Many call this the Haber-Bosch process, which is probably more fair. (Of course, there's also the usual politics when assigning credit and all that...) --Itub (talk) 20:19, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Haber process not really Fritz Haber's 

message: There is little mention of the environmental consequences of the Haber-Bosch process in this article.  the only mention is 
*  "That fertilizer is responsible for sustaining one-third of the Earth's population, as well as various deleterious environmental consequences."
here are a few of the deleterious environmental consequences of synthetic nitrogen
*  nitrogenous runoff causing harmful algal blooms and "dead zones"
*  contamination of drinking water reserves resulting in a wide variety of severe health effects
*  increase atmospheric levels of the greeenhouse gas nitrous oxide.
*  formation of smog
*  acid rain  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.37.30.229 (talk) 18:28, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  environmental consequences 

message: Was the ammonia first converted to potassium nitrate and later converted to other chemicals in WW I?
What I know is that you go directly to burn ammonia with air and react it with water to form nitric acid. Most of the expolsives in WWI were already organic nitrate compounds not inorganic nitric mixtures like black powder. --Stone (talk) 12:56, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  History section 

message: Would someone find that statistic again? It seems to be missing from all the citations in both the Fertilizer and Haber process articles. And find it in something that's not hidden behind a paywall. No one's going to look in Science to find a simple stat that should be available freely on a government or industry website.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.253.17.174 (talk) 23:44, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source needed for the statistic "3-5% of world natural gas production is used in fertilizer production" 

message: I added the refimprove template to this page because there are few sources on some of the most important sections. The following is an example:
The final stage, which is the actual Haber process, is the synthesis of ammonia using an iron catalyst promoted with K2O, CaO and Al2O3:
:N2 (g) + 3 H2 (g) ⇌ 2 NH3 (g)   (ΔH = −92.22 kJ·mol−1)
This is done at 15–25 MPa (150–250 bar)  and between 300 and 550 °C, as the gases are passed over four beds of catalyst, with cooling between each pass so as to maintain a reasonable equilibrium constant. On each pass only about 15% conversion occurs, but any unreacted gases are recycled, and eventually an overall conversion of 97% is achieved.
The steam reforming, shift conversion, carbon dioxide removal, and methanation steps each operate at absolute pressures of about 2.5–3.5 MPa (25–35 bar), and the ammonia synthesis loop operates at absolute pressures ranging from 6–18 MPa (59–178 atm), depending upon which proprietary design is used.
I don't know where to find sources, but if anyone does, please help improve the page.
193.63.43.186 (talk) 15:10, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refimprove template 

message: Does "ranging from 6–18 MPa" actually mean "ranging from 6 to 18 MPa" or "ranging from 6–18 MPa to 25 MPa (given in the previous paragraph)"? — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 00:16, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "ranging from 6–18 MPa" 

message: Given Carl Bosch's equally-important participation in creating the process, it seems like a glaring mistake to leave his name out of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.38.229.19 (talk) 06:19, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your comment. The article states "... also called the Haber–Bosch process ...", and Haber–Bosch process redirects to this article. Are there some other specific changes you would suggest? – Wdchk (talk) 15:52, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, changing the title of the article and references to the process within it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.149.55.171 (talk) 02:21, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The first question, then, would be: what is the name generally used in reliable English-language sources? The relevant policy on deciding an article's title is at WP:CRITERIA. – Wdchk (talk) 03:36, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Haber-Bosch 

message: The article currently contains: "In industrial practice, the iron catalyst is prepared by exposing a mass of magnetite, an iron oxide, to the hot hydrogen feedstock".
I seem to recall hearing that, in order to ensure sufficient purity, a synthetic form of iron oxide is used: jeweller's rouge, for this purpose prepared in situ within the catalyst bed itself by destructively distilling ferrous oxalate that has itself been obtained in a pure form by the double decomposition of pure solutions of ferrous chloride and sodium oxalate. However, a quick glance at the relevant articles suggests that ferrous oxalate could be worse for this purpose than ferric hydroxide as ferrous oxalate produces finely divided iron as well as iron oxide(s), so possibly I am misremembering or possibly the iron produced just doesn't matter. Can anyone provide accurate details and citations for all this and update the article accordingly? PMLawrence (talk) 13:46, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Ullmann's Encyclopedia does not mention oxalate or rouge.  The section on catalyst preparation was expanded somewhat.  --Smokefoot (talk) 15:04, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Preparing the catalyst 

message: What about adding this graph to the article? See :de:Haber-Bosch-Verfahren#Großtechnische Anwendung on how it could be done. --Leyo 14:14, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:File:Haber-Bosch-En.svg]] 

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*Added archive https://archive.is/20140210085650/http://www.basf.com/group/corporate/en/news-and-media-relations/science-around-us/ammonia/story to http://www.basf.com/group/corporate/en/news-and-media-relations/science-around-us/ammonia/story
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hey all, link #13 (Wennerström, Håkan; Lidin, Sven. "Scientific Background on the Nobel Prize in Chemistry 2007 Chemical Processes on Solid Surfaces" (PDF). NobelPrize.org. Swedish Academy of Sciences. Retrieved 2015-09-17.) is broken. I'm gonna do my best to find the .pdf mentioned and repair it.Klajborw (talk) 03:14, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broken Link 

message: Article says:
:Increased pressure does favor the forward reaction because there are 4 moles of reactant for every 2 moles of product, and the pressure used () alters the equilibrium concentrations to give a substantial ammonia yield. The reason for this is evident in the equilibrium relationship, which is
K = \frac{y_\ce{NH3}^2}{y_\ce{H2}^3 y_\ce{N2}} \frac{\hat\phi_\ce{NH3}^2}{\hat\phi_\ce{H2}^3 \hat\phi_\ce{N2}} \left(\frac{P^\circ}{P}\right)^2,
What is supposed to be the evidence for the above statement? As far as I see, increasing the pressure P reduces K considerably. And where does P^\circ even come from?
2001:4CA0:0:F298:2010:8CCD:7072:1BE7 (talk) 14:54, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: K is a constant at a given temperature (which is why it's called the equilibrium constant), so if P increases, the extent of reaction must increase (i.e., the amount of ammonia must go up and the amount of nitrogen and hydrogen must go down) to keep the entire right-hand side constant. Kaiserkarl13 (talk) 00:00, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing formula 

message: Is this a real thing? Google scholar doesn't seem to think it is. It was added here by @Minihaa. Pelirojopajaro (talk) 19:49, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: @Pelirojopajaro: It is a flawed (but funny!) translation of the German article "die durch Reduktion der Wüstit-Phase entstehen" (Wüste -> desert). Could you kindly correct the translation of "Wüstit? Much admired and thanks for spotting! --Minihaa (talk) 12:22, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I should have realized that. Ich war letzes Jahr in Königs Wusterhausen! Pelirojopajaro (talk) 12:34, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Desertite 

message: The haber-bosch process resulted in dust bowl effects on land, rendering it unusable for subsequent crop seasons.  Innovations in crop breeding and the development of pesticides have been the single greatest contributor to higher crop yields and improved nutritional value.  The author of these claims is not an RS, he's more a science communicator than a practicing environmental scientist.  His PhD was in geography not botany.  136.25.121.198 (talk) 19:41, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing sensationalist claims 

message: Is this good? Ktsquare (talk) 03:35, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Simple edit of a sentence in the introduction. 

message: would it not be more correct for the name to be "Haber-Bosch process" i've seen that name used on the page in other languages, and i believe it would be right to reference Carl Bosch's work. 
if not, then please enlighten me Rotcrafter (talk) 07:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Karlshammar (talk) 22:19, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title