Talk:Central Canada

message: :Often, Quebeckers (Québécois) do not see themselves as Canadians, primarily because of the distinct Francophone culture which they feel is radically different from the culture of English-speaking Ontario.
The above used to state "do not see themselves as Central Canadians" and when I went to remove Central, it obviously didn't even belong in this Central Canada article, no matter how much y'all want to discriminate against Ontario out there, it's just not proper for an encyclopedia, nor is it true.
This has nothing to do with "Central Canada" and belongs (and is probably already on) the Canada page or a sub/stub article off it. Quebec sovereigntists do not see themselves as Canadians, period, but what percetange with what proof/verifiability?  They lost two referendums on their own, despite cheating on/for their side to separate from Canada (not Ontario), which is the reason the Clarity Act 2000 (CANADA) was created by the federal government in the first place.
Since when do Québécois or Quebecker sovereigntists single out Ontario as the reason they don't see themselves as Canadians?   When Upper Canada was created in 1791? Upper Canada isn't called Ontario, it's called Upper Canada and if that's what the above is referring to, then it belongs on some Upper Canada/Canada West - Lower Canada/Canada East page as history and properly dated with proper verifiability.
They've got quite a number of English-speaking people in Montreal (over a million, more than the populations of all of the Atlantic provinces and Saskatchewan doesn't have a million people either) and to the south of them in the U.S. as well and Ontario, which only has 106 of 308 federal seats (34%) but it's somehow up to and the fault of Ontario alone that Quebec sovereigntists don't (allegedly) "feel Canadian"?  It's up to the whole country (if anyone even knows what "feeling Canadian" or even "being Canadian" means anymore; without using spoon-fed political/media propaganda) and they get far more support from Ontario than they do from Western Canada.  Though if that were going to be stated in any article, it would need proper verification.
Hence, the above belongs in the Canada article, not some Central Canada article that singles all of the Ontarios out as the reason Quebec sovereigntists mightn't (take your pick,  or ) "do not see themselves as Canadians" (not Central Canadians, which Ontarians don't see themselves as either, as already discussed on this page) or even the above is totally worthless even on the Canada page or whatever political stub; even though it's stated as a cultural issue, by whomever wrote the above, then turned into a political issue (when Central Canada is a geographical reference, not a political jurisdiction) all I've ever heard from Quebeckers, including the Bloc and Parti Québécois, is that they think that the federation/federal government is broken beyond repair and that federal taxes are way too high.
But that doesn't constitute a legal reason to separate from this federation or as a legal reason to use under international law; it constitutes grounds for democratic reforms, but they don't believe that any will ever be done; and I tend to agree; the federation is broken, the federal government is broken beyond repair and there is little doubt or dispute that federal taxes are too high in Canada, not just in "Central Canada".
Prove that 'they' (a majority of Quebeckers/Québécois, not even Quebec sovereigntists or separatists, the latter being rather wishy washy, via an unbiased source, no original research is allowed on Wikipedia) feel that they are not radically different from the culture of Montreal, the U.S. and the rest of Canada, and then you have the Quebecs to deal with because I have seen many polls concluding that whatever "northern Quebeckers" consider themselves to be (how far north of the 401-Autoroute 20 to Quebec City, Windsor-Quebec City corridor, not Central Canada) more like "western" Canadians (which includes the north Ontarios from there) than southern Quebeckers/Québécois.
What proof (or even common sense) states that they don't feel that their culture is radically different from the usual urban to rural and rural to nowheres in the Quebecs, let alone the provinces of Newfoundland & Labrador, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick even though it's the only other officially bilingual province mentioned in the (Canadian) Constitution Act 1982, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta (whose premier has been rather mouthy/offensive to Quebeckers and Québécois), British Columbia (the Lower Mainland-south Vancouver Island of B.C.), or any of the territories or any of the states of the U.S., including Lousiana?
Prove it or dump it and no one is ever going to prove "Central Canada" re: Quebeckers/Québécois "not feeling Canadian" is true: Not without violating WP:NPOV at minimum. --S-Ranger 17:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quebeckers 

message: :"Ontario and Quebec are the most powerful and influential provinces, politically and economically, and this is often bitterly resented by the Western and Atlantic regions of the country. Central Canada is often regarded as an outside hegemonizing force, against which the other provinces must stand on guard to protect local interests.
:"The economic, political, and cultural power of Ontario is often seen as a dangerous force, requiring them to also protect the French culture and Quebec business interests.  Another reason is geographical: only one province (Newfoundland and Labrador, and only a small percentage of that) extends further east than Quebec."
The above was on the mainspace article for Central Canada but it cites no sources, there is no proof of any of it, just political propaganda, which does not belong in encyclopedias.
How do you all explain that a puny 7 MPs (Members of Parliament, federal in Canada) and one mouthy premier from Newfoundland & Labrador is getting more of Ontario's fair per capita share of its own revenues back from the federal government, via the mess of transfer systems, than the Ontario government gets to keep for itself in revenues per capita?
The Toronto Board of Trade (City of Toronto, not GTA or Toronto CMA)
Toronto's Fiscal Gap Now a Fiscal Chasm (pdf) or here for both PDFs on the HTML page to do what you wish with the links.  I'd still recommend right-click then Save Link/Target As... then opening them in free Adobe Acrobat reader instead of in your web browser.
Or this:
The Toronto Board of Trade
"Strong City, Strong NationUpdate: The Growing Gap" (pdf)
January, 2006
Or go through this, backwards, reading the Phase 1 Report first ("recommendations", the Phase 2 Report start the document), Google every citation in the Phase 1 Report, download and read all of the research/documentation and every other reference made in this paper, if you (um, whomever, I'm looking at a video display) to try to dispute it:
Ontario Chamber of Commerce
Fairness In ConfederationFiscal Imbalance: A Roadmap to Revovery, and;Driving Ontario to ‘Have-Not’ Status (the latter, Phase 1 report, is appended to the Phase 2 report/recommendations)
David MacKinnon, August, 2005
The Canadian Chamber of Commerce endorsed the Phase 1 report from the Ontario Chamber of Commerce above, so good luck trying to dispute any of it.  And if "you" (whomever) do, please take it up with the sources, not here.
How does eeeeevil Ontario (south) manage to get itself raped, plundered and murdered by little Newfoundland & Labrador or any other province that ends up with more revenues per capita because the CHT (Canada Health Transfer), CST (Canada Social Transfer), CSIF (Canadian Strategic Infrastructure Fund), MRIF (Municipal-Rural Infrastructure Fund), SHIP (Strategic Highways Infrastructure Fund), on and on, "tax points" and even EI (Employment Insurance) equalization on equalization on more equalization, and also the real Equalization transfer, which shouldn't exist with the CHT and CST around.
And it's exactly how other, much more influential (with far fewer seats/MPs, far lower populations/markets/voters, in) provinces end up with more of Ontarios revenues per capita than it gets to keep for itself.  What kind of massive economic or political "power" does that amount to for Ontario?  It amounts to Ontario (even though it's no singularity on any level by any stretch of the imagination) being walked all over by this federation, and Quebec is the least of our problems regarding that.
When looking at federal transfers you have to look at them in per person/per capita terms, not meaningless totals, because they're all worked out/paid out on a per capita basis.
Equalization Entitlements (2006-07)
(per person)
_______________________________________
                         2006-07   % of
Province                 $ each   Total
_______________________________________
Prince Edward Island     2,102    23.03
New Brunswick            1,927    21.11
Nova Scotia              1,475    16.16
Manitoba                 1,445    15.83
Newfoundland & Labrador  1,334    14.61
Québec                     725     7.94
British Columbia           107     1.17
Saskatchewan                13     0.14
Ontario                      0     0.00
Alberta                      0     0.00
_______________________________________
TOTAL                    9,128   100.00
_______________________________________
_______________________________________
                         2006-07   % of
SUMMARY                  $ each   Total
_______________________________________
Atlantic Total           6,838    74.91
Prairie-B.C. Total       1,565    17.15
Québec Total               725     7.94
_______________________________________
TOTAL                    9,128   100.00
_______________________________________
Note: Totals may not add due to rounding.  [Don't ask me; they add just fine. Ask Finance Canada, which doesn't even provide totals, let alone percentages.  It's their note, not mine and as per usual I have no clue what they think they're babbling about, given that there is nothing to round. If it stated "Note: This is total bull-sh.t, don't rely upon any of it because we're trying to hide everything possible," then it might make some sense.]
% of Total is the what it states, the total is $9,128 per person in Equalization transfers alone and the percentages are based on that total.
Source: Department of Finance Canada - Equalization Program
Last updated (by source): 2006-07-05
Last checked/updated: 2006-07-09
_____
It could almost be looked at as the Atlantic Canadas, central Canadas and western Canadas.  In fact, it can be looked at that way entirely and is in the SUMMARY section.  Finance Canada doesn't have any summary section, but feel free to check the oh so complex mathematics (Excel® did it anyway).  Same totals, and the percentages add up to 100.00 (of $9,128 per person in total, which is what the percentages are based on so they'd better add up to 100.00000000000000000~%).
Note that Ontario is missing from the above (at the source).  And of course it's missing, someone has to pay for all of it and Ontario is the one and only jurisdiction in Canada that has never received the Equalization transfer (even when it was entitled to collect under federal laws and regulations, they laws were changed so Ontario didn't qualify; twice), and Ontario gets ripped off around almost every other federal transfer by these federation, because of its omnipotent hegemonizistic (try finding that in a dictionary; or hegemonizing at Dictionary.com) of political power.
There's no doubt about the economics of the Windsor-Quebec City corridor (which is what Statistics Canada called it in the 2001 Census; on the Ontario end anyway, not the Quebec City-Windsor Corridor), but whether it translates into anything political, particularly in Ontario, is not only debatable, it's an outright lie that everything in Canada that matters has acknowledged: other than the federal government, which just makes itself more and more irrelevant to south Ontario and southeast Quebec (the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, with 60% of the markets of the Canadas, over 60% of its GDP, and on about 7% of the land mass of the Canadas), every day.
Add in the CHT and CST and TFF (Territorial Formula Financing, their federal Equalization system) along with Equalization transfers to the provinces and territories:
Major nowhere near all) Federal Transfers to Provinces and Territories
2004-05 and 2005-06 sorted from the highest, per person, to the lowest for 2005-06.
CAD dollars ($) per person (per capita, same thing) in confederate/federal transfers to each province and territory for fiscal years 2004-05 and 2005-06, the percentage (%) the amount of the transfers are of total jurisdiction's revenues (pittances of federal tax returns for Ontario, Québec, BC and Alberta; confederate handouts for everything else; on top of getting 100% of all federal receipts collected from them back) -- but for the previous fiscal year. Confused? Welcome to the Canadas.
______________________________________________________________
JURISDICTION             2004-05    %  2005-06    %   Change
______________________________________________________________
Nunavat Territory        $25,975   88% $28,061   91%  UP  3%
Northwest Territories    $16,633   78% $17,951   80%  UP  2%
Yukon Territory          $15,727   76% $16,818   78%  UP  2%
Prince Edward Island     $ 2,930   39%  $3,291   42%  UP  3%
New Brunswick            $ 2,739   36%  $3,111   39%  UP  3%
Newfoundland & Labrador  $ 2,449   32%  $2,966   34%  UP  2%*
Nova Scotia              $ 2,455   39%  $2,793   42%  UP  3%
Manitoba                 $ 2,428   38%  $2,717   40%  UP  2%
Quebec                   $ 1,757   25%  $2,052   26%  UP  1%
British Columbia         $ 1,383   18%  $1,570   19%  UP  1%
Saskatchewan             $ 1,332   20%  $1,487   28%  UP  8%**
Ontario                  $ 1,322   21%  $1,487   21%  UP  0%
Alberta                  $ 1,321   16%  $1,486   16%  UP  0%
______________________________________________________________
TOTAL                    $78,451   40% $85,790   43%  UP  2%
______________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________
                                   AVG           AVG   AVG 
SUMMARY                  2004-05    %  2005-06    %   Change
______________________________________________________________
Territories Total        $58,335   81% $62,830   83%  UP  2%
Atlantic Canadas Total   $10,573   37% $12,161   39%  UP  3%
Prairies Total           $ 5,081   63% $ 5,690   73%  UP 10%
Ontario and Québec Total $ 3,079   36% $ 3,539   37%  UP  1%
Rest - (ON+QC) Total     $75,372   44% $82,251   46%  UP  3%
______________________________________________________________
* NL moves up one position over NS from 2004-05.
** SK up the highest of every jurisdiction in percentage of provincial revenues in handouts from 2004-05 to 2005-06.
Territories = Nunavat Territory + Northwest Territories + Yukon Territory.
Atlantic Canadas = Prince Edward Island + New Brunswick + Newfoundland & Labrador + Nova Scotia.
Prairies = Manitoba + Saskatchewan + Alberta.
ON = Ontario
QC = Québec
AVG % (of "provincial"/territorial revenues) and AVG Change in SUMMARY is not the sum of the percent changes from fiscal 2004-05 to 2005-06 but are the average changes (totals divided by the number of jurisdictions; e.g. AVG Change is (3 + 2 + 2 = 7) / 3 = 2.3 percent change for the territories).
Source: Department of Finance Canada - Federal Transfers to Provinces and Territories (scroll down for all jurisdictions)
Date modified (by source): 2006-03-29
Last checked/modified: 2006-05-20
_____
Reality is reality and the paragraphs move from the main article above are nothing but propaganda, the usual from "western" and Atlantic Canadians, nothing but lies and discrimination against Ontario and Quebec.  It's too bad that there is no such thing as any unified political entities or all of the Ontarios or all of the Quebecs, let alone both combined (as I said previously, has no on ever heard of the Bloc Quebecois?  We don't have any equivalent for that in Ontario, but the western Canadas do, with the Reform-Alliance "conservatives", we've got the Bloc on one side the Hick Party from Stampede Town on the other side), or we'd keep billions of dollars more of our own revenues here in the Windsor-Quebec City corridor (not "Ontario" and "Quebec"; the "Ontario" government is on very shaky ground as well as some singularity in these federation, Ontario needs to be at least 5 provinces) where our fair per capita share of our own revenues belong.  And why bother being fair when nothing else in the Canadas is fair to the Ontarios?
And the "Ontario" government is worthless, which is why all the businesses in Toronto and the south Ontario, via the suddenly South Ontario Chamber of Commerce (though it did get some input from the Thunder Bay Chamber of Commerce, nothing else in the norths)are bypassing all politicians, to use the economic might we have to get our fair share of our own revenues out of these federation for once.
What is more important around political institutions (politics) than the amounts of money they force your employer (or you if self-employed) extort from you out of the (sort of) money you make in exchange for the work you do and what you get back (or don't) from that extortion?
The above proves quite clearly that the territories get the most of their (and our) money sent back to them by Finance Canada, then the Atlantic Canadas, then the prairies, with "Central Canada" at the bottom getting back the least in exchange for our work and with Ontario at the bottom of the heap.  That is what politics amounts to and most important politicking around.
So why doesn't Ontario use its almighty omnipotent political power to force the federal government to give us our fair share of our own revenues back?  And why not in combination with Quebec, totally ignoring the rest of the Canadas and threatening every political party that if they don't put that issue front and centre, we won't vote for them?  It's what the above implies, along with potential "invasions" of who knows what that causes those in the "Outer Canadas" (outside the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, but we also include the Lower Mainland-south Vancouver Island; ask David Kilgour, Edmonton Alberta why HE calls it Outer Canada, not us) that you have to "stand on guard" against.
It makes no sense at all. People from all over the "Outer Canadas" are moving to the Ontario section of the Windsor-Quebec City corridor along with an average of 60% of all immigrants to the Canadas. Who has to stand on guard for what again?  Moosejaw?  Medicine Hat? Certainly the Aboriginal peoples do (and we in the civilized world with them) with the western Reform-Alliance Hick Party, even with a minority federal government.
And particularly out west in the deserted prairies.  Is Alberta standing on guard to get qualified human resources for just about everything, because it waited, did nothing to attract the human capital it needed for far too long?  They can't even get enough skilled tradespersons out there and are running ads in Toronto and who knows where else to get people with skills to move to Alberta, which amounts to "standing on guard" against what?  Their own stupidity?
If ANY of the above, removed again after giving everyone a chance to address verification, which is not done by simply removing the tags, it's done by finding reliable sources, according to the standards of Wikipedia, no mine or anyone else's, with credibility, without bias, is added again, it'll simply be removed again because it's a load of mad cow dung, has no basis in fact (just politicking, propaganda, outright lies), which does not belong in an encyclopedia.
And if anyone is going to add any of the above back, please at least provide the courtesy of addressing the comments (and proof) on this page first.  Thanks. --S-Ranger 19:48, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed again 

message: On the Quebec page, this is stated in the opening paragraph:
:"Quebec, or Québec in French, (pronounced  or  in English and  in French) is a Canadian province, in Eastern Canada..."
And in the first sentence of the Ontario article:
:"Ontario is the most populous and second-largest in area of Canada's ten provinces. It is found in east-central Canada..."
If either are claimed to be in "Central Canada" then the first sentences of both pages must be corrected to state Central Canada. --S-Ranger 03:21, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A credible source or not? 

message: The article used to state:
:"Historically, Ontario was once called Canada West, and Quebec Canada East."
With the map of central Canada (as of today) on the article it's misleading, because the northern borders of what are usually referred to as Upper Canada and Lower Canada, because Canada West and Canada East didn't last for long, didn't include any of the north Ontarios or Quebecs when they were Upper/Lower Canada, and there were no links to Upper Canada or Lower Canada.
But I created this:
:"Historically, southern Ontario was once called Upper Canada and later Canada West, and southern Quebec Lower Canada and later Canada East, as the original Union of Canada as referred to in the British North America Act 1867 (now Constitution Act, 1867), the Confederation of the Union of Canada, to become the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, adding the then British colonies of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick."
...and do think that some historical references should be given to the original Canada. I just don't like any of the wording and there are probably lots of internal links I'm missing and I couldn't find a page that addresses Upper and Lower Canada as the original Union of Canada untl 1867.  Upper Canada just pops up out of nowhere on the Canada page in its History section, with no mention of Étienne Brulé (explored what is now southern Ontario in 1610–12), Henry Hudson (who sailed into Hudson's Bay in 1611 and claimed all of the lands that flowed into it for Britain), Samuel de Champlain reached the east shores of Lake Huron in 1615, French explorers and missionaries started to colonize what was then just New France, Rupert's Land (the first governor of the Hudson's Bay Company, British Crown corporation, was named Prince Rupert; hence Rupert's Land) and "Unexplored wilderness" out west, looking for the northwest passage.
Then the American Revolution moved lots of United Empire Loyalists (expatriated but Brits loyal to the motherland, King & Country, who knows) into what's now south Ontario, not just the Atlantic provinces and the trappers and whatnot from Rupert's Land into what's now south Ontario and the French-Anglo struggle for what was to become Upper Canada (south Ontario) decades later, began.
But that history doesn't belong on a page with a map of Ontario or Quebec (or anything else but Uppe Canada/Canada East and Lower Canada/Canada West ... and orientation of some sort to show where it was/is, even in North America) on it, as they exist today.  I'm not quite sure where the history of the real Canada, the original Canada, goes.  It's certainly not on the Canada page and the above isn't exhaustive nor is it meant to be.  It just gets the labels and links Upper Canada and Lower Canada in, and tries to explain that they certainly weren't "central Canada" as Ontario and Quebec as they exist today.
Frankly it's a mess (what I wrote), but it's a start of a tiny bit of history of the region, which should only point to internal links in brief summary; if at all.
I'd appreciate it if it would be left for a week or so, to see if I can improve upon it and others almost certainly can, but without going into anything major; just getting the proper internal links together in a short summary, or just chopping it to:
:Historically, southern Ontario was once called Upper Canada and later Canada West, and southern Quebec Lower Canada and later Canada East.
I'll be happy to do so myself in a week or so if I can't improve it or no one else tries, and no complaints if the blabber after the above is chopped right now, because improvements should probably be worked out here before going onto the article. --S-Ranger 20:48, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: The references cited here do not appear to support the usage this page describes, and it is obvious that the geographical centre of Canada is neither Ontario nor Quebec. Please provide some references that support the description of Ontario and Quebec as "Central Canada". 184.70.37.222 (talk) 16:00, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: References

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thread_title:  External links modified