Talk:1980 Turkish coup d'état

message: I have done some wikification on this article, but I think it needs to be reviewed by someone with a reasonable knowledge of Turkish history. --rbrwr± 13:52, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikify

message: As a working theses I would say that the coup of 1960 was directed against a political party (single party rule); the coup of 1971 was directed at the government (and growing opposition), but the military coup of 1980 was directed against the whole society with the aim of creating a complete new order.
The entry should be structured accordingly:
# Introduction (dates and main features of the coup)
# Context (background): reasons for the intervention such as instability, violence etc.
## Persecution and political trials might be a separate issue
# New Order
## The Constitution
## New legislation: 669 new laws and 139 decrees with the power of law were passed until 6 December 1983
## Heritage: Laws that still exist such as the Law on Political Parties (still not allowed to use the Kurdish language in their work) while the ban on broadcasting was abolished in 1991...
These are just examples of what might be mentioned here. Yet, these are radical suggestions since much of what is mentioned at the moment does not really fit into this concept. What do you think? --Sc.helm 10:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By all means go for it! As you've seen, as the article was not in a great shape, you can only improve it. Just concerning Counter-Guerrilla and such "details" that it was alleged to reside in the DIA headquarters; or the circumstances of the Taksim Square massacre, during which thousands of policemen did not intervene while snipers shot on the masses (1st May, 1977); that the snipers shot from a building owned by the ITT - what a coincidence, isn't it? Four years earlier, Pinochet's coup was financed by ITT, wasn't it? Another, so "strange", coincidence, is the 1973 Ezeiza massacre: snipers hidden under Peron's tribune shot on the left-wing Peronists, putting a definitive end to the ambiguity of the Peronism movement which gathered from the far-right to the far-left. Sure, you might respond me: what's the relation? It is, that again, I am not a favourite of a conspirational reading of history, as that would be first assuming that: someone, or a little group, has the power to control events much more than anyone really can; and that the actions of other people do not count. So, of course, I agree with you in saying that "Gladio wasn't central", if by that you mean that the coup was (not) made by "Gladio" on its own. That's for sure. They are people in Turkey , living by their own, fighting between themselves, and they don't need any American to do a coup for them. But... if it is very naive to put too much weight to the influence of "deep state" and "Counter-Guerrilla" in this coup (which very well lived before & after the coup - no one contest that: the claim is that they supported this coup, and the violence before. Note that the Italian neofascists followed the same strategy, unsuccessfully - see Vincenzo Vinciguerra's declarations to the judges); but it is also naive to think that they had no influence and just represent some kind of folklore stories good enough to scare your kid... To conclude: if you think another structure for the article is better, go for it! The article definitively needs details and more about its legacy. And the facts that it doesn't speak enough about the specifically Turkish dimension gives it a conspirational aspect which it does not deserve. But I do think that the international context (i.e. Cold War) should be taken into account, and this means taking seriously CIA's (and others intelligence agencies, it seems)'s support for it. That's why Counter-Guerrilla should remained included here - although they're not American puppets, I doubt they could have supported and act in favour of a coup if the US were really opposed to it. Finally, Carter's statement is most surprising for those who put too much trust in the Nixon/Carter division (the bad guy - Pinochet, Argentina, etc./the good guy ; and then Reagan: the Contras, and a fresh start for the Cold War). Carter might honestly have wanted to stop a bit the abuses and put some reins in "his boys", but it seems that the situation in Turkey was too "uncontrollable" for him to stop "his boys" over there... Tazmaniacs 15:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Stumbled on that:
 In 2000, General Gianadelio Maletti, in charge of the SID Italian intelligence agency from 1971 to 1975, 
 was convicted in absentia for obstruction of justice concerning the Mariano Rumor case. The investigations
 revealed that he had known of the attack before-hand, but had deliberately failed to prevent it. Testifying in 2001
 for the 1969 Piazza Fontana bombing, he declared:
 ""The CIA [Central Intelligence Agency], following the directives of its government, wanted to create an Italian
 nationalism capable of halting what it saw as a slide to the left and, for this purpose, it may have made use of
 rightwing terrorism... I believe this is what happened in other countries as well...Don't forget that 
 Nixon was in charge and Nixon was a strange man, a very intelligent politician but a man of rather
 unorthodox initiatives"Philip Willan, The Guardian, March 26, 2001.
  [http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,462976,00.html Terrorists 'helped by CIA' to stop rise of left
  in Italy] 
Not so many countries where stay-behind movements have been active and promoted terrorism... Tazmaniacs 01:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure 

message: Someone wanted the Prelude to be harmonized with Right-wing and left-wing armed conflicts (Republic of Turkey). I would rather suppose that the other page is deleted (reasons on the other talk page) --Sc.helm (talk) 17:18, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It probably got spun out to keep the article length manageable (cf. WP:Summary style). --Adoniscik(t, c) 17:30, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harmonization 

message: The section on American involvement is very unclear as to whether the coup was organized with U.S. assistance or that the U.S. was merely informed of it beforehand. If it is the former than more details certainly need to be added.
Also, the paragraph regarding the Grey Wolves and the Kurdish war is contradicted by our own Grey Wolves article which states that "However, after being useful for Kenan Evren's strategy of tension, the leader of the Counter-Guerrilla turned president outlawed the MHP and the Grey Wolves. Colonel Türkeş and other Grey Wolves were arrested." Later, amnesty was granted, but what evidence is there to suggest that they were still affiliated with the CIA post-1980? Even so, what relevance does it have to this specific article? 69.133.126.117 (talk) 01:15, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section on American involvement is unclear 

message: I cut out the accusation that the U.S. was running a network in Turkey to do false-flag attacks.  There was no evidence to support it.  The whole idea that Americans would know how to manipulate Turkish politics is ridiculous.  There needs to be a lot more citations here before you can go from Italians killing Italians in Italy to Americans killing Turks in Turkey.
Maybe there's just a lot of confusion because the CIA was accused of supporting the ASALA in Lebanon in the 1950s and the Kurdish guerillas in Iraq in the 1970s?  Maybe they secretly control all the leftists in Turkey!
Abu America (talk) 11:37, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have reverted your edits and added necessary references there in. The necessary evidence for these facts are well referened inside the text but still I have fixed your POV related issue and  added supporting references. Please do not remove referenced material. Aadagger (talk) 12:38, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

text: In that case, please use reliable sources. I've removed it again and created a comment inside the edit text explaining the problems with the sources. The only reliable sources used are used to support events which occurred. The sources which attempt to link those events to the Americans are:
The sources used to link these events to the Americans are questionable: Kurdistan Times; Tallatturhan.com; candunder.com; A book by "Daniel Ganser" called NATO's Secret Armies. Operation Gladio and Terrorism in Western Europe 
I don't see how anyone could consider these as 'reliable sources' for an 'extra-ordinary claim.'
Grant bud (talk) 11:23, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

text: There is nothing wrong with the sources. A renowned journalist, a researcher, an ex-Turkish army officer, an ex-grey wolf militant (a conversation with him in a respected national newspaper). Everything is appropraite with respect to wikipedia policies. Aadagger (talk) 09:20, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Those sources ( A renowned journalist, a researcher, an ex-Turkish army officer, an ex-grey wolf militant (a conversation with him in a respected national newspaper) are not questions, nor the facts presented there. Both those talk about specific events. Its teh sources used to link the mentioned events to the Americans that I question.
Grant bud (talk) 11:24, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  false-flag 

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thread_title:  Dead link 

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thread_title:  Dead link 4 

message: The sections below include unsubstantiated information and biased references:
- "The 1970s were marked by right-wing/left-wing armed conflicts, often proxy wars between the United States and the Soviet Union, respectively.[1] To create a pretext for a decisive intervention, the Turkish military allowed the conflicts to escalate ;[2][3]"
The references provided here are not academic articles but commentaries from newspapers that are openly critical of the 1980 intervention. References from neutral and/or academic sources are necessary.
- "The violence abruptly stopped afterwards,[6]" 
This is also based on a commentary of a newspaper columnist. This commonly voiced assertion is actually rebutted in a scholarly article: "It was reported that from 12 September 1980 to 11 February 1982, 330 people, including 66 members of the security forces, lost their lives in terrorist events." Taner Demirel (2003), “The Turkish Military’s Decision to Intervene: 12 September 1980,” Armed Forces & Society 29: 2, pp. 253-280, at 278.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.29.144.52 (talk) 08:25, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsubstantiated info and biased references 

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message: Pragdon is keeping adding baseless assertion into the article. The section on American involvment is no original research. The sources cited do not support the case. It has been demonstrated on this talk page, Pragdon is keeping to add this baseless assertions into the article both in this wiki and in Turkish version. Someone, do something. It is an abuse of power, s/he/they shall either raise up a source for the content or s/he/they shall quit vandalising the article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sir artur (talk • contribs) 17:37, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been reporting this issue and this moderator/patrol for weeks, both in Turkish and English wiki. No one does something, I am not talking about deciding who is right. At least supervise this condition, how do you expect Wikipedia to be considered reliable if such personal tastes go unnoticed and unopposed? I may be wrong, maybe I am right. That is not the problem, the problem is such a big report and assertion are unnoticed for weeks if not months. --Sir artur (talk) 18:20, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "No original research" issue on American involvement section 

message: Loot at the Current version of the "Allegations of the US involvement" section. The first two paragraphs are irrelevant. It does not contain anything about allegation or possible involvement. It talks about the US - Turkey relations after the coup, does not talk about any involvement during the coup. Thus, I propose we shall delete the first two paragraphs. Any objections or support? Ruhubelent (talk) 10:31, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion proposal: Irrelevant content on the "Allegations of the US involvement section"