Talk:Gustav Mahler/Archive 1

message: Does anyone care about this?  Should we add Mahler to the Opera composers category?  The connection to the Webers is at least interesting.  --Chinasaur 04:07, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Three Pintos 

message: I changed the way the keys are listed for the symphonies as an attempt to compromise with an anon user who wanted to remove the key only for the 5th symphony, and I like being consistent wherever possible.  Since Mahler often ended in a key other than the one in which he began, I put in both keys (this the method adopted in the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians).  Anyone feel free to suggest another way.  Antandrus 19:27, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Can I add an objection, albeit six months late: many classical works begin and end in different keys, but they always have generally one accepted key. For example, Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto Nos. 2 and 3, beginning in c minor and d minor, respectively, end in C major and D major; both are listed in their respective minor keys. Similarly, Beethoven's Symphony No. 5 is advertised in c minor and ends in C major. Mind you, it's not necessarily the starting key all the time, and while an alert reader might notice that these are all cases of modulating to the tonic major at the end, I point out that Chopin's Scherzo No. 2 begins and is generally listed in b-flat minor, but ends in D-flat major. TheProject 16:48, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, most music publishers defer to the will of the composer when it comes to listing the key (ex. Barber, &c.) of a piece. Blintz 09:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Mahler's 9th symphony has often been listed as being simply in D, as it begins in D major and ends in D-flat major.  Also, it is not clear that the key for his 10th symphony should be given as F-sharp major - several sources give it as F-sharp major/minor and some simply as F-sharp (neither major or minor) ... note, however, the symphony does end in F-sharp major (reworked from a B-flat major ending).  Chuck 20:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes--the convention is usually to use the opening key, e.g. E minor for the 7th, D major for the 9th and F-sharp minor for the 10th.  Like you, I've seen the 10th listed as minor, major/minor and just F-sharp.  Listing it as F-sharp major is a bit misleading.  None of my recordings have it that way.  Antandrus  (talk) 20:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a conservatory-trained musician I'd like to add two cents here -- there's a good musical reason to adopt the two-key designation for Mahler's symphonies which New Grove (the authoritative source on Musical issues) has seen the need for here.  Whereas the some of the examples given of prior examples of works which start and end in different keys were all examples of pieces starting in one key and then ending in a different mode of that key (C minor -> C major is just a mode shift)  and others are connected by the very close minor-relative major relationship (D-flat major is the most closely related key to B-flat minor - they both share the same exact collection of notes for their scale), Mahler's music pioneered new ground in "progressive tonality", where it progresses from one key to a more distantly key that is more remotely related.  The fifth progresses from C-sharp minor to D major.  The ninth progresses from D major to D-flat major. Both of these are non-obvious and non-trivial progressions given the nature of common practice rules of harmony and there is real merit to including both in the title  (Indeed, the sense behind including the opening key when symphonies have movements in many different keys is because all of them are somehow clearly related to that opening key... it is a home that it goes from and comes back to; but often in Mahler's work the ending key, the destination, or the progression from start to finish is what actually drove all those decisions and the opening key simply isn't as singularly important as it used to be).  I'm not a historian, but this kind of knowledge is common among people who know and understand his symphonies from a musical point of view.  For what it's worth, I've seen the 5th referenced as "Symphony No. 5 in C-sharp Minor/D Major" on CD cover or liner somewhere with a note discussing this.  (talk) 21:59, 21 March 2007 EDT —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fred sienkiewicz (talk • contribs) 02:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keys of Mahler symphonies 

message: An anon editor moved Das Lied from song cycles to symphonies; I'm moving it back.  I recognize that the German title contains the word Symphonie Das Lied von der Erde:  Eine Symphonie für eine Tenor- und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester (nach Hans Bethges "Die chinesische Flöte") -- but the Library of Congress catalogues it under symphonies, and by Mahler's own numbering he avoided counting it as a symphony.  I think it fits better under song cycles, but I'm open to comment.  Antandrus 04:07, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Formally, Das Lied is in fact both a song cycle and a symphony. Mahler's main reason for not counting the opus as a symphony was his own superstition to deliver a ninth. Both categorisations make sense, but one should note, that Das Lied is not a mere song cycle: it satisfies the form of the symphonic cycle as much as any of the other late Mahler symphonies. -- 85.180.137.57 14:20, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a good point; I added a note to this effect on the works list.  Antandrus  (talk)  14:48, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Das Lied von der Erde