Talk:Juice Plus/Archive 5

message: Folks, this is not a case of vandalism or disruptive editing, this is a difference of opinion.  No one here is acting in bad faith.  We all want a good article.  There are just differences of opinion as to what "good" means.  But please, you're not going to get the changes that you want into the article, by edit-warring about it.  All that does is make everyone look bad.  The key to working on articles at Wikipedia, is to build consensus, as such:
* Stop the edit-warring
* Stop referring to other editors as vandals. No one here is acting in bad faith, it's just a difference of opinion
* Stop referring to other editors as disruptive.  No one here is acting in bad faith, it's just a difference of opinion.
To get past this impasse, my strong recommendation is to proceed to the next step of Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, which is formal mediation.  This will allow us to seek the participation of a neutral mediator, and everyone can have their say.  I've had good luck with mediation in the past -- I've seen people go into it with profound mistrust, but come out with a compromise version of the article that is acceptable to both sides, and an improved spirit of cooperation all around. So please, I strongly recommend that we do this.  But, it will only work if everyone is willing to mediate.  If any of the key participants refuse, the mediation will be rejected.
So, who is with me?  Who is willing to join mediation on this issue? If you would like to participate, please indicate below. If all the key participants agree, I'll file the paperwork. Elonka 15:59, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not assigning blame I am merely pointing out that you and Matthew made no attempt to discuss the issues. An edit war should come as no surprise when one chooses to ignore reasonable comments and bypass discussion on the talk page. It's a rather obvious, basic step in reolving disputes and it is unfortunate that this was not pursued. I don't see how one can justify going straight to mediation when they have not even attempted to reply to comments made in good faith by other editors. If it is normal to skip disucssion and instead request mediation, then that might be what we will have to do, but it doesn't seem like proper procedure from what I know of WP:DR. Rhode Island Red 02:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Red, I can't speak for Matthew, but this Juice Plus talkpage is currently at #2 on my list of "talkpages where Elonka has spent her time on Wikipedia." And I've participated in a lot of talkpages over the years. To say that I haven't engaged in discussion, is absurd. It's not that I haven't participated, it's just that I'm not agreeing with you as much as you'd like.  ;) --Elonka 03:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don’t want to bicker with you, but obviously the reference to not participating in the discussion refers specifically to your failure to reply to comments. You only responded by curtly claiming that your position was supported by a consensus without elaborating or answering to the detailed comments that were repeatedly posted. As a footnote, to your previous post, I don’t see how an RfC in February is relevant to the current issue about the AE section, which only arose last week. Two editors specifically asked that additional outside editors should be recruited prior to deletion of this longstanding content, but the request was ignored. Mediation is supposed to be invoked when all other methods have failed, but these other methods were not even attempted in this case. Rhode Island Red 03:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Red, if you want another RfC, file one.  No one is stopping you. --Elonka 03:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I just might file an RfC, but since the page is now locked, I'd really like to take advantage and have a breather from Juice Plus for a couple of days. Rhode Island Red 03:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

text:  We have a long weekend ahead of us and the page is locked for 5 days. How about we all take advantage and enjoy not having to talk about Juice Plus for a few days…consider it a holiday ceasefire. When we resume in a few days, we might even want to go back to the negotiating table and discuss the AE section in more detail. At the very least that would help us to frame the issues more clearly, which, if we can’t reach a compromise, would be helpful if we need to go for an RfC or mediation. Rhode Island Red 04:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

text: El I, as a prominent member of the scientific community who has proven the efficacy of Juice Plus+, want to laud you on your efforts to ensure that our product is presented in a positive light. We have been watching your efforts and edits and you have delivered on all accounts. Please let us know if we can assist you in any way and keep up the fight! I am sure we will be able to get the criticism section changed as soon as well. We have been working on an entirely new edit which we will post when you remove the protection. I am sure you will like our version very well. Thank you very much for your stand against RIR and his attempts to discredit our fine product. Dr sears 03:07, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, thanks, but my goal isn't to present the product in a positive light, I just want the Wikipedia article to present a balanced view, with both positive and negative elements included in a fair way. I'm not here "against RIR", I think he's done a lot of great work on the article, and I actually think the current Criticism section looks pretty good - what changes would you like though?  Also, might I ask which studies that you have been involved with, which proved the efficacy of JP?  And lastly, do you have any photos of the product which could be used in the article? It would be nice if we could get an image with actual photographer approval, rather than having to rely on a Fair Use image off of a webpage. --Elonka 03:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Elonka, I have spent hours and hours going over the studies and tried to suggest improvements and guess what the end result has been: Zip, Zero, Zilch. Just discussions that go in circles and responses that inundate you with technical detail and obscure the true issues. It lead to exasperation and in the case of many editors, they give up. Please make sure this horrible cycle does not continue and follow through with the mediation request. We all know you are an impartial voice here and that is why your assistance is so badly needed and appreciated.Citizen Don 07:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Citizen Don, please focus your comments on specific content issues rather than merely praising or denigrating the editors who are working on this article. Personal messages like this should be posted on user pages, not the talk page. Rhode Island Red 00:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Elonka, I'll second Citizen Don's comment. Together, Citizen Don, TracyR and I will remain united and stand with you to ensure that there is a consensus on this page to promote a fair and balanced view of our product. We do not see the need for a criticism section and feel that this page grossly misrepresents the vast majority of scientific work which supports the credibility of JP+. If we don't change this quickly, many folks could be misinformed and remain ill without the nutritive value JP+ provides. I don't think anyone wants that on their conscience . . . Dr sears 00:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We strongly suspected that user Dr sears is not Dr. William Sears, who is a spokesperson and distributor for Juice Plus . We had some incidents with this user last year when they tried to add some unsubstantiated marketing claims (putting it kindly) to the article  and we strongly suspected that the user is masquerading as the Dr. Sears. This user also left threats on my userpage . If they are not Dr. William Sears, then their username is in violation of WP:U . If this user is actually the Dr. Sears, then they have a COI and should not be contributing to the article or participating in deletion discussion as per WP:COI. Rhode Island Red 01:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Red, I recommend that you re-read WP:COI.  Sears, whoever he is, is welcome to participate on the talkpage no matter what his background.  The "deletion discussions" phrasing from WP:COI is more directed at article deletions, and even there, those with a COI are still allowed to participate, they're just advised to do so cautiously. As for his username, there are many people named "Dr. Sears".  Even Dr. William Sears has 3 or 4 sons who are also doctors.  I do agree that if  has a financial relationship with the Juice Plus product, that he shouldn't be editing the article.  But talkpage comments are fine. --Elonka 07:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Look, who cares who this guy is -- he brings up a very valid point: Consensus depends on who is looking at the page at a given time. Elonka, I am a minor wikipedia player, but this makes no sense to me. Truth here is determined by whatever folks show up on the discussion page? Arguments don't matter -- just consensus? We are critizing an editor since they include too much detail in their responses? Trying to delete their content because of a possible negative bias towards a product? What is going on here? Been out of the loop, but this borders on insane. Is Wikipedia moving into the marketing business where a team of corporate sponsors can show up, build consensus and say whatever they want to? Tbbooher 02:08, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously, I agree with Tbooher. There are serious conduct and COI issues at stake here. WP is not a majoritocracy. Consensus building involves going over details and not merely echoing “me too” on the call to delete content.  As I have tried to point out, a consensus did not exist when this material was deleted. Had no one objected to the deletion of the content, then the deletion might be defended, but when other editors argue against deletion and restore the deleted content, as they have in this case, the issues have to be worked out on the talk page. At the time the material was first deleted, 2 editors, me included, had commented against deletion. , and 2 more have commented since. No attempt was made to address the comments on the talk page or to seek additional input form outside editors prior to deletion. Since this was long-standing content, those who favor deletion should have made a supporting case first, rather than deleting first an then attempting to build a weak concensus after the fact. Rhode Island Red 02:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  At this time, it is clear that the consensus is to not include the "Adverse Effects" section. As for consensus-building, you are correct that it's not a matter of a quantity of editors saying, "me too."  Discussion is required. But at the same time, one or two editors disagreeing with the consensus, does not invalidate the consensus.  In these types of situations, it is quite common for there to be a general consensus of opinion held by a majority of editors, with a minority of editors who strongly disagree with that consensus.  What is important in that process, is that the concerns of the minority editors are listened to in a respectful manner, and that options are given careful consideration, with an eye towards finding a compromise position.  Sometimes, however, it just won't be possible to please everyone, and the consensus will end up being something that a minority of editors still vehemently protest. In that case, it may be necessary to proceed to another step of Dispute Resolution.  In this particular case about the Adverse Effects section, consensus looks pretty clear to me, but as a gesture of good faith, I and other editors as listed above are willing to take the issue to a neutral mediator.  This seems the best option to me at this time, unless someone can come up with some other idea for a possible compromise. --Elonka 07:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Elonka, there was no consensus when the AE section was first deleted, and there is no consensus for deletion now. As I have said before, repeatedly, consensus does not involve merely saying “me too” but rather providing solid rationale for proposed changes and participating in discussions with other editors whose opinions conflict with yours. To support a decision to delete this section, you would need to convince the editing community that every reference in the section does not meet with WP policy. So far, you have not even remotely done so. It is plainly evident that no consensus currently exists to support removal of the AE section; it does not even seem that a loose majority favor such action. Aside from me, 3 other editors have disagreed with your decision to arbitrarily delete this content; one of whom is an admin and felt the need to lock the page to prevent the content from being deleted.  Of the editors who now seem to support deletion, none have provided a rationale and instead have merely echoed “me-too” in support of deletion. Matthew has yet to provide a single comment of substance to defend his repeated deletion of the AE section. User:Citizen Don has yet to comment on any of the references in the AE section so far in this discussion. In the thread which discusses your proposal to delete, TraceyR commented on only one of the 5 references in the AE section. Dr Sears has not commented on any of the specific details underlying this issue, and there are possible COI issues with this user. No other editors have left comments on the talk page supporting deletion of the AE section. It is painfully obvious that no consensus was, or has been, established to delete this content. Since this content has been in place for roughly 3 months, it needs to be restored and an appropriate discussion initiated, with input from additional NPOV editors if needed. I hope that this clarifies the status of this issue. Rhode Island Red 01:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: RIR, who is this "we"? Are you admitting to being a role account? Matthew 08:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Matthew: No, obviously “we” did not refer to a “role account”. It referred to me and the other editors that commented on user "Dr. Sears", all of whom were cited in my previous post. This should have been obvious and did not warrant such an inflammatory comment. Please don’t try to generate controversy where none exists, as it doesn’t help us to improve the article or achieve a resolution . Rhode Island Red 00:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I would like to make it very clear to all that I dissociate myself from an earlier contribution from Dr Sears, in which he stated that "Together, Citizen Don, TracyR and I will remain united and stand with you to ensure that there is a consensus on this page to promote a fair and balanced view of our product."  He has no right to speak for me, nor am I acting in concert with him or anyone else.  My objective here is to remove bias (positive and negative) from this article. Given its current (negative) state I can understand that he/she might consider me an ally in presenting the product in a positive light, but that is not my aim. I would be just as keen to remove unjustified positive bias. TraceyR 09:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: TracyR, agreed and apologies about my wording. I merely intended to state that we are united to ensuring the removal of bias. JP+, from the beginning has been a scientifically verified product. Science by definition does not have bias. When you stand for the goodness of fruits and vegetables and the goodness of the scientific process, you stand for JP+. Naturally you don't want to dissociate yourself from that. Dr sears 03:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem. I just wanted to make my position clear. Re bias and science: since science is conducted by humans, human failings are bound to creep in. In theory there should be no bias; in practice it is unavoidable. Although not a scientist myself, I do some work preparing papers for publication in the field of nuclear physics - even there emotions can run high and get in the way of objective analysis! It is obvious from these talk pages that as soon as emotional reactions are provoked (and Juice Plus does seem to polarise reactions), objectivity flies out of the window. Hence this mediation exercise. TraceyR 07:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have mixed feelings about the mediation request. First of all, I think the issues that were outlined are far too broad. Our current conflict stems from the deletion of the adverse events section. It seems that it would be more productive to deal with such pressing and tangible issues rather than vaguer issues like what constitutes a consensus (which incidentally is spelled out quite clearly in WP:CON. Secondly, several editors who have participated in the talk page, with respect to some of the issues outlined, have been omitted from the participant list. Why? It is looking like a stacked deck at the moment and the current participants do not reflect a representative cross section of the POVs expressed. The most important objective at this point should be to get as many well-informed outside opinions that we can; I don’t see that mediation will provide such input. Third, some of the steps that were outlined in the conflict resolution process seem like misrepresentations. I fail to see what the COI report about Julia Havey has to do with any of the current issues. Most importantly, mediation is being requested before other steps outlined in WP policies have been attempted; namely (1) adequate discussion on the talk page, and (2) informal mediation/RfC. I would like to see the current request withdrawn and a more specific request made regarding only the adverse events section for now (and with additional editors who commented included on the participant list). And better than mediation at this point, an RfC or informal mediaition clearly seems like the next logical step. If you all wish to pursue mediation, then perhaps we should try the adverse events section as a test case and see how it works, then we can consider the secondary issues. I don’t want to seem like I am not interested in resolving the current conflict, because I am; I just want to see it done right so that everyone’s time is put to best use. Rhode Island Red 00:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The mediation has been rejected, which I find quite disappointing. The reason it was rejected, was because not all parties agreed to mediation.  Meaning Rhode Island Red.  So, Red, the ball is now in your court.  If you would like to pursue some other form of dispute resolution, please do so.  I have no preference whether this be an RfC or some other form of mediation.  You choose. --Elonka 20:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If Red does not want to join us in our attempt to improve the article, that's fine but I don't think Red's decision should inhibit our efforts. There is a serious problem with this article. Everyone who posts here regularly recognizes this. Why should we put the ball in the court of the one person who can't see the problem? This is the reason why this poorly written article (remember people actually read this article for knowledge) is allowed to languish month after month. I think this failed mediation and the reason for it's failure is indicative of just what has been going on. As such, I would like to see an escalation, perhaps involving the Arbitration Committee.Citizen Don 03:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Citizen Don, I share your frustration. This article must change and we need to completely start from scratch. However, I am not as optimistic as you are with "everyone who posts here regularly". I think there are many who are not with us, such as EdJohnston, Tbbooher, and sometimes even Elonka shows confusion and misunderstanding to the benefits of this product. There is clearly no consensus on this talk page that there is a negative bias to this article -- and that is the problem. We need to bring in some more of us so we can get the consensus here and finally move forward with this article. Dr sears 03:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  Citizen Don, I appreciate your frustration, but I'm afraid that I must point out that you haven't articulated in your post just what changes that you want to see.  I would recommend that you focus on one thing about the article that you would most like to see changed, and start a thread with your suggestions, so that we can discuss it. --Elonka 06:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Elonka, I'll come up with some ideas this weekend. Rhode Island Red 00:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I've attempted to focus on independent issues time and time again, Elonka. Obvious changes get diced up in discusssion with one disagreeing editor to the point where you are left with nothing. The failure of the mediation is a perfect example of this. I consider every mention of critics and controvery in this article to be baseless propaganda perpetuated by people with selfish reasons. They may be people who sell competing products or people like Stephan Barrett who has conceded his ties to the AMA, Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Food & Drug Administration(FDA) in court. Yet there are complete paragraphs in this article that are taken from Barrett's biased work. Juice Plus is extremely successful and a great product. This article should be fun, not a boring point/counterpoint. Other articles have criticism sections while this entire article has become a criticism section. I know that's kind of broad. Not sure what topic I would start for that.Citizen Don 03:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I'll second this. Here is the first set of constructive comments I have seen here. Juice Plus _is_ a great product and making the article fun is a great way to focus everyone towards consensus. This page needs to let people know the truth in a fun way. Naturally, everyone who tries to discredit a product that saves lives and improves health is not just baseless, but also shows anti-social tendencies. It is impossible for me to understand what these individuals have to gain to discredit this product. (Even though I have to admit that ties to the AMA are not a bad thing Don :).) It just makes no sense why these people hate our product _and_ insist on making the article so spiteful and boring. Dr sears 03:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, the key on Wikipedia is verifiability via reliable secondary sources.  Some of the critical sources in this article are clearly reputable, such as Consumer Reports. In my mind, it's one of the best sources in the article, as it's clearly a "general audience"  reliable secondary source.  If you have some of those which provide positive information, bring 'em on.  What have you got? --Elonka 03:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  (reply to Dr sears) Please, for best results, try to keep your comments focused on the article, and not on the editors who are working on it. When you say things like "anti-social tendencies," that can be regarded as a personal attack, which is against Wikipedia policy.  Please just comment on specific things that you would like to change in the article. --Elonka 03:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mediation

message: The mediation request has been filed, at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Juice Plus. 
* I would appreciate if all named parties could go to that page, and signify that you agree with mediation, by entering the word Agree in the appropriate place at the bottom of the page.
* The "issues to mediate" are a starting point only, and may change as mediation progresses.
* Please do not change the "issues to mediate" section, but you are free to add additional items in the "Additional issues to mediate" section
* Please do not add any other comments on the mediation page, or the mediation may be rejected.
* If other editors would like to join the mediation, you may do so.  Just add your name to the List of Parties, and indicate your agreement at the bottom of the page.
If there are any other questions, please feel free to post them at the mediation talkpage, or ask them here. Good luck! --Elonka 01:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mediation requested

message: Red, it's just not helpful for you to phrase your comments as, "It's the other editors' fault."  For example, the other side could just as easily come back and say, "It's all Red's fault, he keeps violating WP:OWN".  But neither statement is going to help us reach a compromise.  As for an RfC, we've already done that, for example I posted to Wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals in February, and we've gotten attention from editors at the COI Noticeboard. If you want to file another RfC though, no one is stopping you, go right ahead. I'd recommend a listing either at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Economy, trade, and companies or Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Maths, science, and technology, list whatever you want. As for mediation, I'm not sure what you mean by a "closed mediation cabal."  MedCab is an informal mediation process, but that's not what I'm suggesting -- I'm proposing full out formal mediation. The problem with MedCab is that it's really the luck of the draw as to what kind of mediator you get -- it's often just some random editor who popped in, who may not have any idea what mediation is about, and I don't think that would be a good idea for our situation.  With formal mediation though, we get someone with more experience. As for whether it's open or closed, that's usually up to the participants.  I have no preference on that. --Elonka 02:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not assigning blame I am merely pointing out that you and Matthew made no attempt to discuss the issues. An edit war should come as no surprise when one chooses to ignore reasonable comments and bypass discussion on the talk page. It's a rather obvious, basic step in reolving disputes and it is unfortunate that this was not pursued. I don't see how one can justify going straight to mediation when they have not even attempted to reply to comments made in good faith by other editors. If it is normal to skip disucssion and instead request mediation, then that might be what we will have to do, but it doesn't seem like proper procedure from what I know of WP:DR. Rhode Island Red 02:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Red, I can't speak for Matthew, but this Juice Plus talkpage is currently at #2 on my list of "talkpages where Elonka has spent her time on Wikipedia." And I've participated in a lot of talkpages over the years. To say that I haven't engaged in discussion, is absurd. It's not that I haven't participated, it's just that I'm not agreeing with you as much as you'd like.  ;) --Elonka 03:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don’t want to bicker with you, but obviously the reference to not participating in the discussion refers specifically to your failure to reply to comments. You only responded by curtly claiming that your position was supported by a consensus without elaborating or answering to the detailed comments that were repeatedly posted. As a footnote, to your previous post, I don’t see how an RfC in February is relevant to the current issue about the AE section, which only arose last week. Two editors specifically asked that additional outside editors should be recruited prior to deletion of this longstanding content, but the request was ignored. Mediation is supposed to be invoked when all other methods have failed, but these other methods were not even attempted in this case. Rhode Island Red 03:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Red, if you want another RfC, file one.  No one is stopping you. --Elonka 03:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I just might file an RfC, but since the page is now locked, I'd really like to take advantage and have a breather from Juice Plus for a couple of days. Rhode Island Red 03:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

text:  We have a long weekend ahead of us and the page is locked for 5 days. How about we all take advantage and enjoy not having to talk about Juice Plus for a few days…consider it a holiday ceasefire. When we resume in a few days, we might even want to go back to the negotiating table and discuss the AE section in more detail. At the very least that would help us to frame the issues more clearly, which, if we can’t reach a compromise, would be helpful if we need to go for an RfC or mediation. Rhode Island Red 04:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

text: El I, as a prominent member of the scientific community who has proven the efficacy of Juice Plus+, want to laud you on your efforts to ensure that our product is presented in a positive light. We have been watching your efforts and edits and you have delivered on all accounts. Please let us know if we can assist you in any way and keep up the fight! I am sure we will be able to get the criticism section changed as soon as well. We have been working on an entirely new edit which we will post when you remove the protection. I am sure you will like our version very well. Thank you very much for your stand against RIR and his attempts to discredit our fine product. Dr sears 03:07, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, thanks, but my goal isn't to present the product in a positive light, I just want the Wikipedia article to present a balanced view, with both positive and negative elements included in a fair way. I'm not here "against RIR", I think he's done a lot of great work on the article, and I actually think the current Criticism section looks pretty good - what changes would you like though?  Also, might I ask which studies that you have been involved with, which proved the efficacy of JP?  And lastly, do you have any photos of the product which could be used in the article? It would be nice if we could get an image with actual photographer approval, rather than having to rely on a Fair Use image off of a webpage. --Elonka 03:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Elonka, I have spent hours and hours going over the studies and tried to suggest improvements and guess what the end result has been: Zip, Zero, Zilch. Just discussions that go in circles and responses that inundate you with technical detail and obscure the true issues. It lead to exasperation and in the case of many editors, they give up. Please make sure this horrible cycle does not continue and follow through with the mediation request. We all know you are an impartial voice here and that is why your assistance is so badly needed and appreciated.Citizen Don 07:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Citizen Don, please focus your comments on specific content issues rather than merely praising or denigrating the editors who are working on this article. Personal messages like this should be posted on user pages, not the talk page. Rhode Island Red 00:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Elonka, I'll second Citizen Don's comment. Together, Citizen Don, TracyR and I will remain united and stand with you to ensure that there is a consensus on this page to promote a fair and balanced view of our product. We do not see the need for a criticism section and feel that this page grossly misrepresents the vast majority of scientific work which supports the credibility of JP+. If we don't change this quickly, many folks could be misinformed and remain ill without the nutritive value JP+ provides. I don't think anyone wants that on their conscience . . . Dr sears 00:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We strongly suspected that user Dr sears is not Dr. William Sears, who is a spokesperson and distributor for Juice Plus . We had some incidents with this user last year when they tried to add some unsubstantiated marketing claims (putting it kindly) to the article  and we strongly suspected that the user is masquerading as the Dr. Sears. This user also left threats on my userpage . If they are not Dr. William Sears, then their username is in violation of WP:U . If this user is actually the Dr. Sears, then they have a COI and should not be contributing to the article or participating in deletion discussion as per WP:COI. Rhode Island Red 01:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Red, I recommend that you re-read WP:COI.  Sears, whoever he is, is welcome to participate on the talkpage no matter what his background.  The "deletion discussions" phrasing from WP:COI is more directed at article deletions, and even there, those with a COI are still allowed to participate, they're just advised to do so cautiously. As for his username, there are many people named "Dr. Sears".  Even Dr. William Sears has 3 or 4 sons who are also doctors.  I do agree that if  has a financial relationship with the Juice Plus product, that he shouldn't be editing the article.  But talkpage comments are fine. --Elonka 07:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Look, who cares who this guy is -- he brings up a very valid point: Consensus depends on who is looking at the page at a given time. Elonka, I am a minor wikipedia player, but this makes no sense to me. Truth here is determined by whatever folks show up on the discussion page? Arguments don't matter -- just consensus? We are critizing an editor since they include too much detail in their responses? Trying to delete their content because of a possible negative bias towards a product? What is going on here? Been out of the loop, but this borders on insane. Is Wikipedia moving into the marketing business where a team of corporate sponsors can show up, build consensus and say whatever they want to? Tbbooher 02:08, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously, I agree with Tbooher. There are serious conduct and COI issues at stake here. WP is not a majoritocracy. Consensus building involves going over details and not merely echoing “me too” on the call to delete content.  As I have tried to point out, a consensus did not exist when this material was deleted. Had no one objected to the deletion of the content, then the deletion might be defended, but when other editors argue against deletion and restore the deleted content, as they have in this case, the issues have to be worked out on the talk page. At the time the material was first deleted, 2 editors, me included, had commented against deletion. , and 2 more have commented since. No attempt was made to address the comments on the talk page or to seek additional input form outside editors prior to deletion. Since this was long-standing content, those who favor deletion should have made a supporting case first, rather than deleting first an then attempting to build a weak concensus after the fact. Rhode Island Red 02:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  At this time, it is clear that the consensus is to not include the "Adverse Effects" section. As for consensus-building, you are correct that it's not a matter of a quantity of editors saying, "me too."  Discussion is required. But at the same time, one or two editors disagreeing with the consensus, does not invalidate the consensus.  In these types of situations, it is quite common for there to be a general consensus of opinion held by a majority of editors, with a minority of editors who strongly disagree with that consensus.  What is important in that process, is that the concerns of the minority editors are listened to in a respectful manner, and that options are given careful consideration, with an eye towards finding a compromise position.  Sometimes, however, it just won't be possible to please everyone, and the consensus will end up being something that a minority of editors still vehemently protest. In that case, it may be necessary to proceed to another step of Dispute Resolution.  In this particular case about the Adverse Effects section, consensus looks pretty clear to me, but as a gesture of good faith, I and other editors as listed above are willing to take the issue to a neutral mediator.  This seems the best option to me at this time, unless someone can come up with some other idea for a possible compromise. --Elonka 07:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Elonka, there was no consensus when the AE section was first deleted, and there is no consensus for deletion now. As I have said before, repeatedly, consensus does not involve merely saying “me too” but rather providing solid rationale for proposed changes and participating in discussions with other editors whose opinions conflict with yours. To support a decision to delete this section, you would need to convince the editing community that every reference in the section does not meet with WP policy. So far, you have not even remotely done so. It is plainly evident that no consensus currently exists to support removal of the AE section; it does not even seem that a loose majority favor such action. Aside from me, 3 other editors have disagreed with your decision to arbitrarily delete this content; one of whom is an admin and felt the need to lock the page to prevent the content from being deleted.  Of the editors who now seem to support deletion, none have provided a rationale and instead have merely echoed “me-too” in support of deletion. Matthew has yet to provide a single comment of substance to defend his repeated deletion of the AE section. User:Citizen Don has yet to comment on any of the references in the AE section so far in this discussion. In the thread which discusses your proposal to delete, TraceyR commented on only one of the 5 references in the AE section. Dr Sears has not commented on any of the specific details underlying this issue, and there are possible COI issues with this user. No other editors have left comments on the talk page supporting deletion of the AE section. It is painfully obvious that no consensus was, or has been, established to delete this content. Since this content has been in place for roughly 3 months, it needs to be restored and an appropriate discussion initiated, with input from additional NPOV editors if needed. I hope that this clarifies the status of this issue. Rhode Island Red 01:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: RIR, who is this "we"? Are you admitting to being a role account? Matthew 08:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Matthew: No, obviously “we” did not refer to a “role account”. It referred to me and the other editors that commented on user "Dr. Sears", all of whom were cited in my previous post. This should have been obvious and did not warrant such an inflammatory comment. Please don’t try to generate controversy where none exists, as it doesn’t help us to improve the article or achieve a resolution . Rhode Island Red 00:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I would like to make it very clear to all that I dissociate myself from an earlier contribution from Dr Sears, in which he stated that "Together, Citizen Don, TracyR and I will remain united and stand with you to ensure that there is a consensus on this page to promote a fair and balanced view of our product."  He has no right to speak for me, nor am I acting in concert with him or anyone else.  My objective here is to remove bias (positive and negative) from this article. Given its current (negative) state I can understand that he/she might consider me an ally in presenting the product in a positive light, but that is not my aim. I would be just as keen to remove unjustified positive bias. TraceyR 09:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: TracyR, agreed and apologies about my wording. I merely intended to state that we are united to ensuring the removal of bias. JP+, from the beginning has been a scientifically verified product. Science by definition does not have bias. When you stand for the goodness of fruits and vegetables and the goodness of the scientific process, you stand for JP+. Naturally you don't want to dissociate yourself from that. Dr sears 03:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem. I just wanted to make my position clear. Re bias and science: since science is conducted by humans, human failings are bound to creep in. In theory there should be no bias; in practice it is unavoidable. Although not a scientist myself, I do some work preparing papers for publication in the field of nuclear physics - even there emotions can run high and get in the way of objective analysis! It is obvious from these talk pages that as soon as emotional reactions are provoked (and Juice Plus does seem to polarise reactions), objectivity flies out of the window. Hence this mediation exercise. TraceyR 07:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have mixed feelings about the mediation request. First of all, I think the issues that were outlined are far too broad. Our current conflict stems from the deletion of the adverse events section. It seems that it would be more productive to deal with such pressing and tangible issues rather than vaguer issues like what constitutes a consensus (which incidentally is spelled out quite clearly in WP:CON. Secondly, several editors who have participated in the talk page, with respect to some of the issues outlined, have been omitted from the participant list. Why? It is looking like a stacked deck at the moment and the current participants do not reflect a representative cross section of the POVs expressed. The most important objective at this point should be to get as many well-informed outside opinions that we can; I don’t see that mediation will provide such input. Third, some of the steps that were outlined in the conflict resolution process seem like misrepresentations. I fail to see what the COI report about Julia Havey has to do with any of the current issues. Most importantly, mediation is being requested before other steps outlined in WP policies have been attempted; namely (1) adequate discussion on the talk page, and (2) informal mediation/RfC. I would like to see the current request withdrawn and a more specific request made regarding only the adverse events section for now (and with additional editors who commented included on the participant list). And better than mediation at this point, an RfC or informal mediaition clearly seems like the next logical step. If you all wish to pursue mediation, then perhaps we should try the adverse events section as a test case and see how it works, then we can consider the secondary issues. I don’t want to seem like I am not interested in resolving the current conflict, because I am; I just want to see it done right so that everyone’s time is put to best use. Rhode Island Red 00:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The mediation has been rejected, which I find quite disappointing. The reason it was rejected, was because not all parties agreed to mediation.  Meaning Rhode Island Red.  So, Red, the ball is now in your court.  If you would like to pursue some other form of dispute resolution, please do so.  I have no preference whether this be an RfC or some other form of mediation.  You choose. --Elonka 20:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If Red does not want to join us in our attempt to improve the article, that's fine but I don't think Red's decision should inhibit our efforts. There is a serious problem with this article. Everyone who posts here regularly recognizes this. Why should we put the ball in the court of the one person who can't see the problem? This is the reason why this poorly written article (remember people actually read this article for knowledge) is allowed to languish month after month. I think this failed mediation and the reason for it's failure is indicative of just what has been going on. As such, I would like to see an escalation, perhaps involving the Arbitration Committee.Citizen Don 03:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Citizen Don, I share your frustration. This article must change and we need to completely start from scratch. However, I am not as optimistic as you are with "everyone who posts here regularly". I think there are many who are not with us, such as EdJohnston, Tbbooher, and sometimes even Elonka shows confusion and misunderstanding to the benefits of this product. There is clearly no consensus on this talk page that there is a negative bias to this article -- and that is the problem. We need to bring in some more of us so we can get the consensus here and finally move forward with this article. Dr sears 03:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  Citizen Don, I appreciate your frustration, but I'm afraid that I must point out that you haven't articulated in your post just what changes that you want to see.  I would recommend that you focus on one thing about the article that you would most like to see changed, and start a thread with your suggestions, so that we can discuss it. --Elonka 06:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Elonka, I'll come up with some ideas this weekend. Rhode Island Red 00:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I've attempted to focus on independent issues time and time again, Elonka. Obvious changes get diced up in discusssion with one disagreeing editor to the point where you are left with nothing. The failure of the mediation is a perfect example of this. I consider every mention of critics and controvery in this article to be baseless propaganda perpetuated by people with selfish reasons. They may be people who sell competing products or people like Stephan Barrett who has conceded his ties to the AMA, Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Food & Drug Administration(FDA) in court. Yet there are complete paragraphs in this article that are taken from Barrett's biased work. Juice Plus is extremely successful and a great product. This article should be fun, not a boring point/counterpoint. Other articles have criticism sections while this entire article has become a criticism section. I know that's kind of broad. Not sure what topic I would start for that.Citizen Don 03:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I'll second this. Here is the first set of constructive comments I have seen here. Juice Plus _is_ a great product and making the article fun is a great way to focus everyone towards consensus. This page needs to let people know the truth in a fun way. Naturally, everyone who tries to discredit a product that saves lives and improves health is not just baseless, but also shows anti-social tendencies. It is impossible for me to understand what these individuals have to gain to discredit this product. (Even though I have to admit that ties to the AMA are not a bad thing Don :).) It just makes no sense why these people hate our product _and_ insist on making the article so spiteful and boring. Dr sears 03:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, the key on Wikipedia is verifiability via reliable secondary sources.  Some of the critical sources in this article are clearly reputable, such as Consumer Reports. In my mind, it's one of the best sources in the article, as it's clearly a "general audience"  reliable secondary source.  If you have some of those which provide positive information, bring 'em on.  What have you got? --Elonka 03:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  (reply to Dr sears) Please, for best results, try to keep your comments focused on the article, and not on the editors who are working on it. When you say things like "anti-social tendencies," that can be regarded as a personal attack, which is against Wikipedia policy.  Please just comment on specific things that you would like to change in the article. --Elonka 03:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments on mediation request

message: An attempt was made to remove certain sections of the article, which included the Consumer Reports information, and the info about Dr. Wise's association with an earlier company that was cited for fraud. In my opinion, these sections are adequately referenced, relevant, and appropriate for the article, so I have reverted the change, but I would like to check consensus here at talk. What do other editors think?  Here is a diff of my reverted changes:  --Elonka 21:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no question that your revert was totally justified. Unilateral removal of referenced content without adequate (or any, in this case) discussion on the talk page is considered blanking, a form of vandalism. This particular act of blanking is especially ill-advised given the current disagreements/edit wars and the fact that the page was only unlocked today after a 5-day lock period. As I mentioned before, there also serious issues about this user’s potential COI (they are essentially claiming to be the Dr. Sears, a Juice Plus spokesperson/distributor), and/or username violation (potentially masquerading as Dr. William Sears of Juice Plus fame), not to mention past threats levied by this user against other editors of the Juice Plus article. I would suggest that if similar incidents are repeated by this user, we should file a user conduct RfC or take other appropriate remedial action. This kind of behavior should not be overly indulged. Thanks for upholding policy in this case. Rhode Island Red 23:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Red, thanks... It's nice to see that we agree on things every so often.  :)  But, could you please stop referring to good faith edits as vandalism? This can be regarded as a type of personal attack. When we use the word "vandalism" on Wikipedia, it's usually used to refer to really blatant things, like blanking an entire page and replacing it with the picture of someone's genitals.  Simple disagreements (even if they are COI disagreements) are not vandalism.  Instead, they're what we call a content dispute.  A User Conduct RfC on  is also probably premature at this point, especially considering that he is not a particularly active editor (less than 10 edits in 2007).  Plus such a thing would probably be compromised by WP:OWN and WP:SPA issues of the other participants.  If we're getting into some active edit wars, then it might be worth considering, but for now, I recommend gentle scholarly discourse, with a neutral mediator.  :) --Elonka 01:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry to disagree with you on this but I have also read WP:VAN and it is seems quite clear that content blanking of this type qualifies as vandalism; WP:VAN states “Wikipedia vandalism may fall into one or more of the following categorizations: Blanking - Removing all or significant parts of pages, or replacing entire established pages with one's own version without first gaining consensus.” Furthermore, WP:NPA does not state that a vandalism warning is a personal attack. It would not have been out of line to have left the user in question a vandalism warning. I appreciate your concerns, but the world (and WP) needs police as well as diplomats. Rhode Island Red 13:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dr sears' edits were not vandalism, though a good case could be made that they were WP:SPA edits or POV-pushing. These are unfortunate behaviors, but they are not vandalism, because they appear to have been made in good faith, and not as a deliberate attempt to weaken the article.  So again, please stop accusing other editors of vandalism, as it is a personal attack. It is also my strong recommendation that you (and everyone on this page) work very hard to be as civil as possible. --Elonka 19:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism section

message: I found this link to be pretty eye opening: http://www.juiceplus.com/nsa/pages/ResearchShows.soa . There seems to be some great findings about Juice Plus from many prestigious institutions, almost too good to be true. Since there have been claims of false advertisement on Juice Plus' part in the past, I think it would be helpful if we were able to verify that all the findings cited from these universities and science centers are true. Citizen Don 04:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like the links to the universities on that page, are actually links to abstracts of the related papers.  For example, the first one, "Juice Plus+® delivers key phytonutrients that are absorbed by the body." by the "Medical University of Vienna", is linked to the 2004 Kiefer study. "Kiefer et al. Supplementation with mixed fruit and vegetable juice concentrates increased serum antioxidants and folate in healthy adults. Journal of the American College of Nutrition 2004; 23 (3): 205-211" The 2004 Kiefer study appears, to my eye, to meet our standards of "double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized study".  Triple-A.  However, before anyone gets too excited, please note that we are already using this study in the Wikipedia article.  It's ref #8, named "kiefer". I recommend that someone go through the other studies that are linked on that webpage, and list them here.  Then we can rate each one as to whether or not it's reliable, and whether or not we can include its results in the Wikipedia article. --Elonka 21:16, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not sure if I understand the point of this exercise. When reporting the results of scientific research, studies that are not double-blind/placebo-controlled/randomized are not ignored, they are merely qualified (i.e. noted when the study designs are less than optimal) and weighted (i.e. they are generally trumped by studies with better designs). Only a few of the Juice Plus studies were double-blind/placebo-controlled/randomized trials. There is no valid basis in WP policy or a scientific precedent for excluding mention of the other studies, if this is in fact what is being proposed here. If a study is published in a journal that meets minimum standards for quality, then it meets with WP:VER and WP:RS, and that is all we should be concerning ourselves with as editors, wih the possible exception of noting where conflict of interest might be an issue (i.e. mentioning company involvement). Attempting to use an arbitrary rating scheme to exclude studies from the article has no precedent in the science world and to do so would qualify as original research, unless a secondary source had already done it. Rhode Island Red 00:52, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verifying Studies Referenced on Juice Plus Website 

message: With regard to the  “+” symbol being recently added to each instance of the product name Juice Plus (i.e. now written as Juice Plus+), this is actually discouraged according to the WP Manual of Style on trademarks (WP:MOSTM), which states: 
“Avoid using special characters that are not pronounced, are included purely for decoration, or simply substitute for English words…it is acceptable to use decorative characters the first time the trademark appears, but thereafter, an alternative that follows the standard rules of punctuation should be used”. Since the “+” in Juice Plus is an unpronounced decorative character (i.e. the product is not pronounced Juice Plus Plus, it appears that it would be OK to use "Juice Plus+" when the product is first mentioned, but thereafter, it should be referred to simply as “Juice Plus”. Rhode Island Red 01:01, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I agree. I think putting on the redundant plus sign, just makes the article harder to read. Can we remove it as RIR has suggested? Tbbooher 02:22, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree, and would support the removal of the extra character. --Elonka 09:10, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I disagree and see no problem with including it. Obviously I'm in the minority. If it was my name I'd be f**** mad if someone treated my name this way! It shows a lack of respect, and I don't even respect this product in the least. On the contrary! -- Fyslee/talk 20:12, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Removal of the character sounds reasonable. Shell babelfish 22:04, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm happy if the '+' symbol is removed, because it seems that WP:MOSTM discourages the higher flights of fancy in product naming. At least WP does not need to track the unusual decorative characters. Otherwise we have to spell Macy's as Macy*s, and similar things. Google itself may have a similar issue. Twenty-four times more hits are found for 'Juice Plus' if you omit the decorative '+' sign; six times more hits are found for Macy's than Macy*s. A triumph of common sense. EdJohnston 03:57, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed, and we've had similar problems with other capitalization issues.  For example, some brand names want to be listed in ALL CAPS, but according to the Wikipedia MoS we stick with a more reasonable spelling.  One mention of the "+" in the lead paragraph is sufficient. --Elonka 19:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am glad to see that we are getting so much participation on an issue. I am also pleased to see Fyslee, a new editor, taking an interest in the page, and apologize if it seemed that we were trying to denigrate the contribution. But this editorial issue arises frequently and not just at WP. The Chicago Manual of Style (a definitive source) also talks about this. The problem with including trademark names that include unpronounced characters is that it makes articles less readable and it can get absurdly out of hand, for example, hypothetically, when a product comes out that wants to be referred to as “Brand X#@!&*+++” in print. Newspaper and magazine editors just won’t do it. Incidentally, remember what happened when the musical artist Prince changed his name to a string of unpronouncable symbols? They simply started calling him the "Artist Formerly Known as Prince". Rhode Island Red 00:54, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "+" Symbol in "Juice Plus+"