Talk:Liberalism and progressivism within Islam

message: Large sections of this article are unsourced. They should either be referenced or deleted. The article has been tagged for original research for more than 3 years.VR talk 06:06, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Clean-up

message: Whrn I read this article, I was struck by the similarity of liberal Islamic movements to my own Reform Judaism. This should not be surprising. Judaism and Islam are cut from the same cloth. They both operate around religious law, are both monotheistic, and took similar norms and values from a somewhat similar sacred origin-story. However, Judaism has long been a minority religion in the many lands it has dwelt in, while Islam has been a majority religion in many of its own countries.
Nonetheless, what has happened to Islam in Western countries may be like what happened to Judaism during the Haskalah and the emigration to America and out of Europe. People were free to interact with an outside society. Values of tolerance and friendship, of common courtesy and diversity, were learned, and a traditional society had to cope with the norms and values of a new one. Thus, reform movements naturally arose.
Thus, I felt including Reform Judaism in this article might be helpful.  —  Rickyrab. Yada yada yada 04:36, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reform Judaism 

message: As far as I know Jelali revolts (XVI. and XVII. century) during the Ottoman era was the first revolt made by people against the religious order. Köprülü Fazıl Ahmed Pasha was also supporting by Jelali revolters who were looking for a more free order. That can be also mentioned. Cemyildiz (talk) 14:03, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jalali Revolts 

message: This word needs to be replaced by a word in english: "madhahabs". 
This is an english encyclopedia. It would be tolerable (just about) if this arabic word were linked to an article explaining what it means; but it links to nothing.
I am going to delete the prose that includes this word; if you restore that deleted text, I presume that you know what the word means, and I expect you to translate it into english. Thanks!
MrDemeanour (talk) 21:13, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It's poor spelling; the most technically correct transliteration would be "Madhhab (one of the four traditionally-recognized schools of legal interpretation in Sunni Islam).  P.S. Words such as "English" and "Arabic" are conventionally capitalized in English... AnonMoos (talk) 01:46, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bafflegab 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Liberal Muslim movements. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20060709004427/http://www.averroes-foundation.org:80/articles/progressive_islam.html to http://www.averroes-foundation.org/articles/progressive_islam.html
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20080607005013/http://www.mcb.org.uk:80/media/speech_10_12_01.php to http://www.mcb.org.uk/media/speech_10_12_01.php
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20100104054129/http://islamlib.com:80/en/pages/about/ to http://islamlib.com/en/pages/about
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*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20100106085845/http://islamlib.com:80/en/article/soft-power-for-the-islamic-movement to http://islamlib.com/en/article/soft-power-for-the-islamic-movement
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 04:45, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Liberal and Progressive Muslim movements's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "AP_detained21May":
From Women to drive movement: 
From 2011–12 Saudi Arabian protests: 
Reference named "Metz_KSA_legal_system":
From Women to drive movement: 
From 2011–12 Saudi Arabian protests: 
Reference named "Forbes_lashes_revoked":
From 2011–12 Saudi Arabian protests: 
From Women to drive movement: 
Reference named "NPR_lashes_revoked":
From Women to drive movement: 
From 2011–12 Saudi Arabian protests: 
Reference named "teleg_w2d_vs_Interior":
From 2011–12 Saudi Arabian protests: 
From Women to drive movement: 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 21:18, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Liberal and Progressive Muslim movements]] 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Liberal and Progressive Muslim movements's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "AJE_women2325April":
From Saudi Arabian municipal elections, 2011: 
From Saudi Arabian municipal elections, 2015: 
Reference named "arabtimes_4kQatifetc_18March":
From Political prisoners in Saudi Arabia: 
From Peninsula Shield Force: 
Reference named "pressTV_17March_4kQatif":
From Peninsula Shield Force: 
From Political prisoners in Saudi Arabia: 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 21:38, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Liberal and Progressive Muslim movements]] 

message: Dear LouisAragon, its not about is content sourced or not, problem is that its WP:IRRELEVANT to the title. There are long articles about Green movement and protests. Someone can also copy-paste content from Iran student protests of July 1999, but it would still be irrelevant if sourced text doesn't explain how its related to Liberal/Progressive ideologies. That's all. --MehrdadFR (talk) 13:04, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: That's funny because thats not what the sources said. Rupert Loup (talk) 00:08, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Rupert Loup, which sources? Can you prove anything or you'll only engage in edit war? --MehrdadFR (talk) 00:38, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  and more. Google is your friend. Now I don't saying that the content that you added can't stay but it shouldn't read like an essay and should reflect reliable sources, which are? Rupert Loup (talk) 07:28, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iran section 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Liberal and progressive Muslim movements's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "WSJ":
From Islam and secularism: 
From Fethullah Gülen: 
From Secular Islam Summit: 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 15:36, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Liberal and progressive Muslim movements]] 

message: How come Syrian Rebels who are supported by Saudi Arabia are among Liberal and progressive Muslim movements  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.116.233.63 (talk) 22:33, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Which rebels who are supported by Saudi Arabia are here? Rupert Loup (talk) 02:28, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  How come Syrian Rebels are among liberal Muslims movements? 

message: I'm sure it was well-intentioned, but the new title could be about non-religious political progressivism in countries which happen to be Muslim majority, while the old title was about progressivism within Islam (as it said), so that the two are not remotely equivalent... AnonMoos (talk) 21:52, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: AnonMoos, I know, I made it on purpuse, nobody says that are equivalents. It can refer to the Islamic community and/or in the Muslims mayority countries. I don't see why we should have it separete. "Within Islam" doesn't make sence. So I made a section, "In the Islamic philosophy", if it growth enough we can split it in "Progressive Islam" or "Progressivism in Islam". But until that I think we should keep it merged. Or we could rename it to "Liberalism and progressivism in Islam", that could work too. Rupert Loup (talk) 02:59, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I still don't really understand why an article with a religious focus should be replaced by an article whose name strongly suggests a political focus?  Why not create a new political article, without displacing the existing religious article... AnonMoos (talk) 13:51, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: What? Liberalism and progressivism are political philosophies. It never was a only religious focus article. Rupert Loup (talk) 15:55, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It was (or should have been) about reform movements within Islam in the direction of more tolerance and/or contextualizing traditional rules of Islamic law to fit with the circumstances of modern society (as opposed to reform movements within Islam in the direction of less tolerance and more rigid interpretation of traditional Islamic law).  I still don't understand why an article on religion had to be destroyed to create an article on politics.  Why can't there be two separate articles with two subjects? AnonMoos (talk) 03:10, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

text: The article about reform movements is called Islamic Protestantism. Rupert Loup (talk) 10:31, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That's kind of a stupid name (and it could apply equally to "movements within Islam in the direction of more tolerance and/or contextualizing traditional rules of Islamic law to fit with the circumstances of modern society" as well as to "reform movements within Islam in the direction of less tolerance and more rigid interpretation of traditional Islamic law")... AnonMoos (talk) 00:07, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, I changed to Islamic Reformism. The content is what we have. If you think that you can improve it you are free to do it. Rupert Loup (talk) 07:39, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Article name change from "Liberal movements within Islam‎" to "Liberalism and progressivism in the Muslim world"

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 13 external links on Liberalism and progressivism in the Muslim world. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141103123327/http://www.e-fatwa.gov.my/selangor to http://www.e-fatwa.gov.my/selangor
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160603070018/https://revolution-news.com/bosnian-lgbti-activists-demand-equality-now/ to https://revolution-news.com/bosnian-lgbti-activists-demand-equality-now/
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The move to "Reform movements" was apparently motivated by certain currents of discourse in the West that associate the term "reform(ation)" in an Islamic context with liberalism, secularism, etc. This is not how the term "reform(ism)" is generally used in Islamic studies. See, for instance, Lapidus, Ira M. (2014). A History of Islamic Societies. Cambridge University Press:
  Modern Islamic reformism began as the religious and moral response of ulama, tribal, and urban communities to the decline of Islamic states [...] The reformers were opposed to later accretions to the foundational texts, and to the blending of Muslim and non-Muslim cultures. [...] Reformism came in a broad spectrum of colors, from light corrections of Sufi practice to deep hues of fundamentalism. [...] Contemporary movements of this type are also called "Islamist". [...] The earliest example of a reformist movement in a pastoral and tribal society was the Wahhabi movement in Arabia. p. 514
See also the collection of encyclopedic quotes in the first ref of Wahhabism to confirm that this is standard usage. The older title is also problematic because it conflates liberal/progressive/etc religious interpretations of Islam with movements and ideologies where religion plays little or no role at all. The whole history of Westernisation, communism, socialism, secular nationalism, etc, in the Muslim world could be included here. On the other hand, restricting the scope by using the term "Islamic" in the title would invite OR as to what movements are and aren't sufficiently "Islamic". Unfortunately, there no easy way to make this article anything other than a sprawling gallery of arbitrarily picked "Good Muslims" whom someone somewhere has called "liberal" or "progressive" (and I doubt anyone has bothered to check that it's the case for many of the movements and people listed here). However, the latest move was clearly not an improvement. Eperoton (talk) 14:39, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bad move 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 120 external links on Liberalism and progressivism in the Muslim world. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081010041914/http://iastp.berkeley.edu/RotaryProfile.asp?id=377 to http://iastp.berkeley.edu/RotaryProfile.asp?id=377
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20040722203058/http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/LiberalIslamLinks.htm to http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/LiberalIslamLinks.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article was WAY too long. I often had to access from low-spec PC or places with crappy Internet connections, and the article was nothing but a nuisance. Made overhauling by (re)focusing on Islam, cutting contents regarding liberal/socialist/social democratic movements that have nothing to do with Islam, creating new articles for notable figures and individual movements: 
*List of liberal and progressive Muslims
*Liberal and progressive Islam in Europe
*Liberal and progressive Islam in North America
Even if you disagree with my edit, I seriously urge you not to revert to the old revision. I'm simultaneously a Wikipedia editor and a user, and from user's perspective, it was a complete and immense failure of an article.
JahlilMA (talk) 15:52, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overhauling 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This article has a number of accuracy issues around liberal or progressive Islam. Liberal and progressive Islam doesn’t really go back to any sort of classical Islam. Classical or mainstream Islam derived from Quran and Hadith is conservative or as some might say “fundamental” (meaning practicing the fundamentals not as in extremism).
Rather liberal and progressive Islam tends to depart from the pillars and foundations of Islam and the Quran and Hadith. Examples are in liberal and progressive Islam music is more widely accepted as permissible while it’s haram according to a majority of modern and traditional scholars which point to Hadith.
Liberal and progressive Islam is just a liberal application of Islam to ones daily life and many in those circles believe that Islam can be changed to be more suitable for modern time.
Anyways as advanced notice I intend to overhaul this article to make it accurate as right now it’s not and is misleading. Bkerensa (talk) 11:47, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accuracy and Narrative 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:37, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: The article has a section on Liberalism and progressivism within Islam#Sayyid supremacism and caste system in Islam. How is that related to this topic? Are there sources that consider this a major issue for liberal Islam?VR talk 02:52, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: They're theoretically descendents of Ali ibn Abi Talib.  Many of those marriage-equality restrictions in Islamic law applied more in the early centuries of Islam than now (though the issue of Muslims in certain areas of the Indian subcontinent being divided into caste-like groups is a current one)... AnonMoos (talk) 11:30, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  How are Sayyids related? 

message: This is just information. No action expected nor required vis a vis your edit.  
Your recent edit dif 325137 to this article reminded me of a very very very very slow discussion process I began on couple of article talk pages for example @ Talk:Apostasy in Islam#Difference between Muslim .... and Islamic .... ?. Some how I missed this article, may be after some more weeks/months I will begin a formal discussion here too.
Usually Wikipedia traditions usually goes as per which term is most used in reliable English languages sources. And most terminology comes in accordingly. Most times one does not need to look in to underlying nuanced issues. For example most people are usually not aware and not careful about differentiation between word 'Muslim' and word 'Islam'. If copy editors  doing article maintenance know there can be issues about appropriateness may help a little in long run. 
For some people (many of them likely conservative) Liberalism and progressivism is basically reinterpreting Islamic scriptures liberally. Islam does not reinterpret it self, who reinterprets is Muslims and liberals. So one can rightly claim that article title should have been, "Liberalism and progressivism among Muslims and liberals".        
Probably that was the reason the other editor tried his good faith edit changing 'within Islam' to 'about Islam'.
I just tried to explain, how nuances are experienced differently through different perceptions, and how it connects to copy editing and maintenance tasks, very much indirectly though.     
 
Thanks and warm regards
Bookku (talk) 13:58, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just a note 

message: Greetings ,
First of all let me appreciate you took lead in recently (October end) updating the article.  Same time I do have some concerns about the edits.
:A) 
: Article Islamic revival says 
: Your addition to this article says, ''
: First of all your above statement is in Wikipedia's voice. Then it goes on to give a blanket credit to all sort of revivalist movements some of which can be just plain antagonistic to any sort of liberalism and pluralism and some may even be subscribing to extremism too. 
: Due to restricted view I could not immediately view the quotation you are referring to, may be you can add a quote to see exactly what your source is trying to say.
: Second is it really very very necessary to include an ambiguous statement right in the lead? or it would be better  to accommodate in 'Movements' section mention with suitable clarification.
:B) Substantial credit of liberalism in Islam goes to reinterpretation but you seem to have deleted a related sourced sentence:
:""   
Is this accidental deletion or it is really case that you wish to value revivalism more than reinterpretation?    
 Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 09:06, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: 
#Kurzman states in Liberal Islam: A Sourcebook (1998) that liberal Islam originally emerged from the Islamic revivalist movement of the 18th-19th centuries. Unfortunately, I can't borrow the full quote from the corresponding page anymore because Google Books has locked the preview, however it can be found in the first chapter, "Introduction: Liberal Islam and its Islamic Context", also authored by Kurzman.
#I deleted the statement Liberal Islam values reinterpretations of the Islamic scriptures in order to preserve their relevance in the 21st century because I thought that it was redundant and unnecessary, but you're free to reinsert it in the lead section of the article, if you wish.
#I never stated that liberal Islam values revivalism more than the reinterpretation of the Islamic texts, since it values both equally. GenoV84 (talk) 17:19, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some concerns  

message: Greetings,
Adequate and nuanced overview for even non– Muslim audience is expected out of the articles Muslims and Muslim world. Whether the articles are achieving that purpose adequately? Requesting and expecting proactive participation in providing inputs from non–Muslim audience too along with Muslim users.     
Since the article Muslim world is tagged various improvements it can not be submitted to formal review process still I feel the article deserves more inputs for content improvement. 
Requesting your visit to the articles 
* Muslims and 
* Muslim world 
:: and provide your inputs @ 
* Talk:Muslims/Archive 8#Requesting inputs and 
* Talk:Muslim world#Requesting inputs 
Thanks
 Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 06:46, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requesting inputs 

message: There are passages like "Liberal Islam originally emerged out of the Islamic revivalist movement of the 18th-19th centuries" and "and a modern view of Islamic theology, ethics, sharia, culture, tradition, and other ritualistic practices in Islam."
While this seems to be true for many movements, should other Islamic movements that took inspiration from European economics and values be listed in this article as well? GoutComplex (talk) 21:31, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Trends of thought which are clearly mainly inspired by "European economics and values" have little credibility among large numbers of Muslim believers for exactly that reason... AnonMoos (talk) 04:01, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The introduction summary and the past 

message: The  section requires a rewrite in fluent, grammatical English.  Which particular variety of English isn't as important as that the result be readily understood by most English speakers.  The existing text does not rise to this level.  Ideally, such a rewrite would be carried out by an editor who is familiar with the work of Ali Shariati. yoyo (talk) 09:51, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ali Shariati