Talk:Israel Shamir/Archive 2

message: I'm moving this section to Talk because it is misleading and POV: he does not propose "a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict", but rather the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" as he admits himself. The lone paragraph in this section is clearly antisemitic and is so bewildering that I don't think any serious scholar would even bother to respond. Do we want to be seen as uncritically promoting this: 
:Shamir proposes a religious rather than a political solution to the Palestine conflict. In The Marxists and the Lobby II he writes "There is no ‘tainted blood‘ - acceptance of Christ is the Final Solution of the Jewish Question, . . .the families of the revolutionaries often utilised the prominent status of their relatives and displayed certain ‘Jewish behaviour‘ (clannishness, Jewish supremacy, financial criminality, disregard of Russian culture) and they were indeed attended to by Joseph Stalin, while properly behaving Jews mainly retained their position. . .  the Palestinians are fighting not only for their homes; they are keeping at bay the antichristian forces from their age-long dream of subjugating Edom and Ishmael."
To call the contribution of Isaac Levitan, Léon Bakst, Isaac Babel, Osip Mandelstam, Boris Pasternak, Maya Plisetskaya, Sergei Eisenstein, Dziga Vertov, Anton Rubinstein, Isaak Dunayevsky, Leonid Utyosov - to name a few - "disregard of Russian culture" is abomination. I.S.'s other points are equally wrong. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 20:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  On a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict 

message: Joh Domingo has created the wiki accounnt JohD
'The biographical information given by Shamir is disputed by others. Roland Rance has written that Shamir "also writes under the names of Schmerlin, Robert David, Vassili Krasevsky and Jöran Jermas."'
<Blockquote> Shamir is apparently a right-wing Russian journalist, who pretends to be an Israeli Jewish leftist. He claims to live in Jaffa, and may well have a home there, but he also seems to live in Sweden. He uses a Swedish email address, and his website used to be hosted there. His son was deported from Israel to Sweden....[4]</Blockquote>
This quote is moved to the talk page on the grounds that contains wild allegations published in a disreputable source. Shamir was known in Israel as a Russian Language journalist long before Roland Rance had ever heard of him. Widely circulated on several pro-Zionist online publications, a quote taken from the Jerusalem Post article published on Aug 14th 1991 appears to be correct:
 The article is full of allegations that Sakharov was a harmful Zionist agent. Robert David is presented as an Israeli. His identity is well known. As Israel Shamir (Shmerling), he came to Israel in the late 1960s from Novosibirsk and soon became an extreme leftist.
He acquired an excellent command of Hebrew and published many articles in Ha'aretz, Al Hamishmar, and also The Jerusalem Post. He was also a Knesset spokesman for Mapam for some time. At the end of 1980 he published a violent article against Russian nationalism in Ha'aretz, accusing supporters of Solzhenitsyn of being the Jewish people's worst enemies. What was not known to Mapam and to other Israeli leftists and liberals was that Shamir also had close contacts with the Western and Israeli right. 
The archive page is We Mustn’t Shun the Russian Right
It is by no means the only evidence of the existence of an Israeli Journalist by the name of Robert David a.k.a. Israel Shamir, before his exposure to English speaking Western readers.
"The Same line of argument can be found in an article by the Israeli Journalist and communist party memeber Robert David. Jewish Intellectuals he claims, instigated a conspiracy of silence about all aspects of the Khazar theory because it deprives Zionists of misusing the argument of antisemitism, since the jews are not really semites. See Robert David - 'Veshii Oleg i velikaiia step', vesnik evreiskoi sovetskoi kulturi no. 13 (1989)" - reference footnote page
Russian Intellectual Antisemitism in the Post Communist Era ISBN 0803239483 (You will have to register and log in to view the page.)
Robert Davids is again reference on page 131 in association with Yuri Vaslov. - " Robert David and Uri Vaslov are two well known
Authors who drew on Ostrovsky’s Expose’
Seems this pro-Zionist Author has no difficulty remembering the ariticles and books of Shamir and places no significance to his use of the pen-name “Robert David”. Robert David appears to be a pen-name used by Shamir during his stint as a Russian Correspondent for Hare’etz and a columnist for the the Russian Paper <I>Zavtra</I> during the period 1989-1993.
There is more evidence of Israeli Israel Shamir. The quote is just wild shooting from the hip by a fringe publication. The evidence also suggests that much of Shamir’s biography can be verified, and the term ‘disputed’ should be removed pending evidence to the contrary.
::Please don't re-instate this passage until you at least try to address the objections raised above. An encyclopedia is no place to air wild allegations by a nobody.I have reason to doubt the report of Manfred Ropshitz as well. He claims anybody can get a copy of Shamir's passport, but the Swedish consul says it is protected by Sweden's privacy laws.JohD 11:41, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Right Wing Russian Journalist 

message: This article is not about Jermas, who is unknown, except as an identity of Shamir. The subject is adequetely dealt with in the body. It does not deserve headline treatment either in the intro, or the conclusion. Using dubious secondary sources in the intro is unacceptable. 
I have moved the issue of using Expo and Socialist Viewpoint to talk. They are unacceptable sources for wiki, and make wild claims that could or just as easily be devoid of truth. The subject has not been deleted from the material, and Jonathon Pollard is still quoted as a source, although quite clearly, his source is Expo and Socialist Viewpoint. JohD 16:20, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro - and false quoting of unacceptable sources. 

message: This is really scraping the barrel. We have refrained from including quotes from ANY pro-Shamir source, and relied solely on anti-Shamir sources to date. Still you have to scrape the barrel? Find another source for this material, or it is going into the bin. JohD 16:33, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indymedia as a source? 

message: Please don't start revert wars. I gave my reasons why the edits were done. I have noticed that you avoid talk about the issues. Is this because you have no grounds for your reverts? I am editing this page beacuse I think it is a sewer. I will give you an opportunity to edit the last page before reverting. JohD 23:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've already edited this page - you keep removing properly sourced information, and inserting apologetics. I object to all of that. Jayjg (talk) 20:44, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please don't start revert wars. 

message: In an article titled Bloodcurdling Libel, Shamir advances the blood libel that Jews sacrificed Christian children for their blood, perhaps for use in Passover matzos or Purim hamantaschen. In a September 2004 article titled The Spider Web, he describes Sunday Times articles as "part of a Judaic conspiracy to besmirch Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims", and suggests that the Beslan school massacre, genocide in Sudan, the 11 March 2004 Madrid attacks, the terror attacks on Istanbul synagogues, and the August 31, 2004 suicide bombings on buses in Beersheba (for which Hamas claimed responsibility), were all "False flag" operations carried out by the "Judaic conspiracy". Another article titled Poisoning Wells recycles the medieval belief that Jews were responsible for causing outbreaks of bubonic plague by poisoning the wells.
The above passage is made from whole cloth and inventive original research. Nowhere in The Bloodcurdling Libel does Shamir 'advance ' the 'blood libel that Jews sacrificed Christian children for their blood, perhaps for use in Passover matzos or Purim hamantaschen'. The article is an examination of the use of the accusation of 'blood libel' against people who fight Zionism. He contrasts this with the accusation that Palestinians encourage their children to kill themselves in Suicide attacks, which is itself a blood libel. Quote the offending passages, don't invent things.
In The Spider Web  Shamir remarks on the apparent 'conspiracy' by Jews to defame Muslims and Arabs. The link between the various attacks is drawn by Zeev Shief, and Shamir merely mocks him. Representing that as Shamir suggesting that they are false flag operations is a personal POV derived from reading the text with a jaundiced eye. The material is borderline, but it does not mean you can make of it what you will. It is one thing pointing to and quoting such material, quite another to put a spin on it.
It seems that Shamir cannot mention the words 'conspiracy', 'blood libel', and 'poisoning wels, without being selectively misquoted. The introduction makes clear what he thinks of the 'medieval belief' the Jews poisoned wells:
For over a millennium, we Jews were connected in the European popular mind with well-poisoning, to great chagrin of our ancestors. Now, the fantasies of past become true, as some dark minds turn tales of old into today’s reality
"Jews are forever innocent" - He points out they are not, citing a real life incident where a Jewish man tried to poison the water supply in central Europe 50 years ago.
Please fix these items, it is not your role to think for people reading the article. They should be capable of making up their own minds If you want people to draw conclusions that Shamir is an anti-Semite and is recycling cannards about Jews, you are going to have to do better than that. If you cannot improve on it, then perhaps it should be deleted altogether. Wiki is not a soapbox. JohD 18:48, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bloodcurdling Libel 

message: Jayjg, Please don't vandalize pages with curt statements that amount to your POV. If you believe the material is whitewashing, then present the offending passages and we can discuss it. Otherwise, it is plain vandalism.
:Actually, if you want to change the page, then get consensus for this in talk first please. Jayjg (talk) 19:55, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Whitewashing Please. 

message: Since I'm new to Wiki, I'm wondering how long it takes to arrive at an acceptable bio. It'll be calming for readers when Shamir's bio is finally settled, and not filled with personal attacks on him.--David1313 21:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's actually a fairly Darwinistic process, provided the edit warring is not too violent. Eventually the useful and reasonable information will crystalise out and the bio will be acceptable. With controversional persons this is an asymptotic function - months are not unusual. JFW | T@lk 22:48, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: When is it done?

message: Shamir has links with alleged neo-nazis and fascist sympathisers in many countries , including Horst Mahler   in Germany, Martin Webster  and David Irving   in the UK, and David Duke  in the USA.
I am putting this passage here for review. There a number of problems with it that can perhaps be resolved.
1. What is a 'link'? Is it a relationship, corrspondence, or simply returning a greeting, what?
2. The source that alegedly confirms this sentence is given as the French version of an article by Dominique Vidal in Le Monde diplomatique called France: racism is indivisible . It contains no mention of neo-Nazis and Fascists, in relation to Shamir or anyone else ... except 'the Jewish far right'. You cannot be serious.
3. The term 'neo-Nazi' is bandied about far too freely and used as a blunt weapon against anyone you don't seem to like. Not only is Shamir's tenuous 'links' to these people provided as dirt, they are gifted with the adjective 'alleged' and 'symphatizers'. Shamir is hereby lumped with unsubstantiated charges that he has links with 'alleged' 'symphatizers'. 
4.The link that puports to substantiate the charge that he has 'links' to Horst Mahler is a simple reproduction of Mahler's proposed speech (his passport was confiscated to prevent him making it), contains some interesting disclaimers: "It is not endorsed neither considered for endorsement. All the
news fit for print - and some that are not!", some substantiation!
5. Another link provided for the same purpose, is correspondence recieved and posted on Shamir's newsgroup from Horst Mahler. Shamir does this regularly, about 1600-1700 people belong to Shamir's list, which is completely opt-in, opt-out; the names of subscribers are not public, but correspondence with subscribers has been published from an eclectic mix of well-known figures from around the world. Is this what is termed 'links' nowadays? If you read the London Times, or a Shabby Tabloid for that matter, and they publish your letters, are you then 'linked' to them?
6. The link to David Irving's webpage is provided as evidence that Shamir is also 'linked' to him. I once tried to sell the Sydney Harbour Bridge to George W, Bush. I almost nailed him but he backed out at the last possible moment. I guess that 'links' me to him. Perfectly good enough for an encyclopedia to write 'Johd is linked to fanatical warmonger'.
7. Another link, purporting to demonstrate a 'link' between Shamir and David Duke is an article, distributed by Shamir, criticizing Duke's performance at the recent Kiev anti-Ziomist Conference. It seems that Shamir, and the author, disagree in almost every respect with Duke: "Which of course implies that our double-faced friend-foe Duke (with whom we ate, together with Israel Shamir, a breakfast in the “Sport” hotel in Kiew), with no repentance whatsoever still works as “politruk” on behalf of the unchanged since the Cold War, Department of State!" - Some 'link! (JohD 11:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This passage is deleted in its entirety. This is not an 'anti-facist' forum for you to bash whoever you think is a neo-Nazi or fascist.JohD 15:29, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links with Fascists 

message: Since it is becoming clear that reverts of my edits are based on noting more than suspicions of my motives, I am editing the bio again and making clear my position. I believe that the article as it stands is highly prejudical to Shamir. It presumes to accept allegations as 'facts'. I believe the emphasis on what is clearly a small and segmented group of people out of the wider Shamir readership creates a false picture of people's reaction to his views. While not an invalid opinion, we should avoid creating the perception that wiki agrees with it, or not. 
The article is already being disseminated on websites around the world. Do a simple google search and you will find such refrences to the page. 
Answers.com
If this is the case, it behooves us to get the article right, and cease obstructionist behavior.JohD 07:52, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Reverts of your edits are being done because your edits do not follow policy, as they attempt to remove any information critical of Shamir on the flimsiest grounds, and accept everything Shamir says as factual, when his critics continually call his factualness into account.  In addition, you make sweeping claims and generalizations on this talk page which you are singularly unable to back up, then use that as a basis for your deletions and edits.  Please review WP:NPOV and WP:V.  If you want to find and add material supportive of Shamir, that's one thing, but to simply remove material because you don't like it is unacceptable. Jayjg (talk) 15:56, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And no Jayjg, the material is not removed, it is simply arranged in a more NPOV manner. You abuse your editing privileges to revert at all costs. If we cannot agree the a NPOV presentation of critical material, what is the sense of piling into the piece supportive material?JohD 06:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you being ingenious or are you mistakenly confusing the issues.  my last edit (07:33:15.12/05) contains the Rance material. It was not removed, yet it was still reverted. I am not ignoring your criticisms of my edits, but modifying them to take into account your objections. I wish I could sincerely thank you for your asistance in that regard, but that would be like a tortured prisoner at thanking his tormentor for providing a glass of water. Previously I had moved Rance's passage to the talk apge in its entirety so it could be edited and re-instated. I still hold that Expo and Searchlight and for that matter Socialist Review are inappropriate source material in this case to be included without qualification as per wiki guidelines reliable sources; but somebody will clarify that in due course, I am sure. Rance himself believes the subject is inapropos on this page, but I disagree with him because it forms the centerpiece, and is the original source of this material. I am certain the Indymedia source is inadmissible, but it is not so important. You can include any source you want, and any material for that matter, but I will scrutinize the manner of its presentation. Once we have settled the style issues, I will present my own material, subject to the same standards. I have no intention of covering the same ground, with twice the materialJohD 00:17, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Replacement Bio redux 

message: I have made five edits that incorrectly attribute OR as deriveing from a source or ahave removed information from a quote to conceal relevant details.
1.	Agursky’s quote contains an important sentence that verifies one of the most disputed claims of Shamir -hat he is not an Israeli. He verifies it as far back as 1991, when most of his critics mention here had never heard of him. Ironically, this passage is included in a section that questions Shamir’s account.
2.	The Rance passage contained Rance voicing doubts about Shamir’s identity, the claims that other anti-Zionist Jews express similar views. This is false, the anti-Zionist Jews in the source material express views unrelated to Shamir’s identity, and about Shamir’s views.  I changed it.
3.	The passage including the phrase  ‘According to Swedish Authorities” has been introduced again with the false atribution as to the source of this information. I have changed the source of this information (according to the source provided) to “The Swedish Census”
4.	I have made a minor edit to Jewish/Christian Relations to separate the paragraph to provide more clarity
5.	I have included a more explanatory details from the quoted text. The original material made no sense viz a viz the opening sentence and the section heading. The second paragraph, seperated by eclipses  actually belongs in a separate para according to the source text and has been edited accordingly.JohD 06:23, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Style & verification edits 

message: His edits on the Lord Ahmed page confirmed my strong suspicion that User:JonD is a sock-puppet of Israel Shamir.
He has only edited Israel Shamir and related articles, his style is strongly reminiscent of Shamirs style.  I wasn't certain, so I asked him to edit the Ahmed article as he saw fit.  It turned out that he wasn't so bothered by the controversy in itself, but by the response from Ahmed.  Previously it concluded Ahmed refused to comment and now it reads Ahmed refused to condemn the remarks.  What can be done about this?  jucifer 16:22, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  JonD is Israel Shamir 

message: Dear Roland,
You have made a couple of interesting statements as it pertains to this article:
:: I am certain of Manfred Ropschitz's evidence, but I do not rely on it
Explain why you do not rely on it, yet Wikipeadia, and their readers should? If you have conclusive evidence that Shamir has changed his name, please provide us with it so that the issue can be settled conclusively. That Shamir has not denied it, is not conclusive proof that it has happenend. If you refused to provide evidence, would that be conclusive proof that you do not have it? I don’t think so. 
:: I thought that this was no longer in question. Shamir himself has never denied that he is also known as Jöran Jermas and has a residence in Stockholm. Indeed, he has threatened me with legal action for publishing the address (which I did inadvertently).
According to your piece in the Socialist Review, Shamir is divorced, could it be that his first wife, and his children, were exposed to danger by your actions? A lot of people were interested in your article, not because you were famous, but because Shamir was. It includes Searchlight Magazine; as little as I have read about it, it is enough to want to keep such characters far away from my family, estranged or not. It was a stupid thing to do, as I am certain you realize, but you were not the first, David Irving was. It was a thoughtless and vainglorious deed, that has done him a fat lot of good. 
Alas, it would make my task easier, if the issue of his Jermas identity was settled conclusively.  I restrict my discussion about the private personal affairs of my friends to topics that are freely and voluntarily declared by both parties, and avoid private discussions of them even with third parties. I don’t know about it, it is a sleazy expose’; and I seriously doubt it would make a difference one way or another. Surely even you must be aware by now that the issue is still very much in the air.  Not that it is because people don’t believe it, but because they don’t care one way or another, and object to the manner and purpose of the expose’. For this reason, even if it were solely up to me, I would include a mention of it. But its presention should be sterile, devoid of weasel spin doctoring, and it most certainly, should not be included in the intro as a Poisoning the well exercise. To do so invites retaliation.
BTW, have you ever apologized to Shanir for your 'inadvertent' slip?
:: I have never claimed that he is not an Israeli or that he does not live in Jaffa; rather, I have simply published the established fact that he has at least one additional identity, residence and citizenship.
Where have you publish this ‘established fact’? As far as I can make out, you made a totally unsupported statement that “(Shamir) who also writes under the names of Schmerlin, Robert David, Vassili Krasevsky and Jöran Jermas.” I could not find any evidence at all that verified this claim anywhere. Not for a single one of them. I have since established that Shamir did indeed write under the name Robert David in the Russian language and I was the one that first edited in this information. The claim that 'Jermas' wrote anything, is particularly relevant here. Until recently, it did not occur to me that you cite the same passage in your SV article, the complete quote was not there, only fragments. I suspect it was because the full quote contained information that gives lie to the ‘I do not believe a word of it’ phrase. It is not ‘established fact’ at wiki until it is sourced and verified, whatever impression you may have to date. Nothing will stand until we can include all relevant material, including sources.  I am asking for your co-operation, it is everybody concerned interests.
Whatever you meant by the ‘I do not believe a word of it” comment, it is the one that is doing immense damage, since it forms the basis of the ‘many details of Shamir’s biography are disputed’ disclaimer. I have tried to get around this by including a sterile version of the undisputed details, and including references to the disputed ones. 
It is important for us to know why you believe Israel Shamir lives in Jaffa, and so avoided the accusation that he only 'pretends' to.
Which brings me to the purpose of this message. I believe you owe us an explanation, and an obligation to clarify the issues, that mainly center on your decision to 'expose' Israel Shamir. What evidence do you have for your claims about his identity? What motivates your campaign against him?  Why did you deliberately cast aspersions to bring into question Shamir’s biographical claims, which you now want to brush off and deny you said. Of course you didn’t say, but that was the intended implication. Why did it take so long for you to clarify your statements, deliberately allowing aspersions to be cast onto Shamir’s biographical record of his career? Wiki is not the only occasion where it has happened, it is widely reproduced on every rabid, warmongering, Zionist, hate site on the internet. You are a hero at www.littlegreenfootballs.com. Congratulations, It must make you proud. You are famous.
::I have not introduced any of this into wikipedia, where it is not appropriate. It is however, appropriate in an article somewhere like Socialist Viewpoint (which is not, by the way, affiliated to the Socialist Workers' Party in either the USA or Britain).
Please explain why you think it is inappropriate for wikipedia for this mateial to be introduced, and it is appropriate for Socialist Review. I do accept now that 'affiliated' is not the proper word, would 'aligned' be more accurate? 00:46, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roland Rance, Please Clarify