Talk:Aethiopia

message: I remember reading an explanation for this odd use of "Ethiopia" – but unfortunately I can't remember the source. At some point in the 8th century BCE Egypt and Israel were ruled by the 25th Dynasty, which was of Nubian origin, and hence of "Aethiopian" (Sub-Saharan) origin in the antique sense of the word. The Perseus/Andromeda legend therefore supposedly refers back to a period when Ioppa was ruled by a 25th Dynasty/Nubian/"Aethiopian" governor. I also remember the author admitting this explanation was highly speculative. I hope this helps. 70.108.167.47 (talk) 02:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no evidence to support the Perseus/Andromeda legend supposedly refers back to a period when Ioppa was ruled by a 25th Dynasty/Nubian/"Aethiopian" governor. :-) Angar432 (talk) 03:19, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Totally Unsourced Statement

message: This article is so poorly referenced that it really should be deleted. It needs both examples of mentions of Ethiopia in mythology and reliable sources regarding the subject. Fred Talk 17:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Refimprove

message: The odd explanation for 'Ethiopia' might be attributed to some later sources misconstruing the Greek name Cassiopeia that was linked to "Iopeia/Ioppa" with "Aethiopia" and the obscure ancient geography of the times.  Now as to where the mythical kingdom is on a map? Good luck trying to establish that location. Between the obscured references and different interpretations through out the centuries you also have to factor in the very different obscure geographical locations of the ancient world through ancient eyes that is vastly different from our modern geography. For example the Red Sea (Erythra Thalassa), were some sources stated Perseus fought the monster, they place somewhere in the vicinity body of water around Asian Babylonia and Persia.  
http://www.antiquewebsitecompany.com/map-page/map08.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/81/Herodotus_world_map-en.svg/788px-Herodotus_world_map-en.svg.png
No matter its obscure location never the less ancient Greeks believed the Phoenician city of Ioppa/Joppa in the Middle East to be the location of King Cepheus mythical kingdom. They traditionally linked Queen Cassiopeia's name to Iopeia/Ioppa and Pliny the Elder associates the name with Jopa, the daughter of Aeolus, god of wind.  Ancient sources [i.e. Pliny, Pausanias] talk about the Greek inhabitants of Joppa worshipping Perseus and holding him in high honors in the city because they believed the legend of Perseus/Andromeda took place in Joppa. According to Pliny the Elder the people of Joppa could point out the very rock that Andromeda was chained too. But in 140 BC the inhabitants of Joppa were driven out by the Maccabeus. The Greek inhabitants of Joppa fled to the nearest Hellenic controlled city at the time which was Ptolemais where apparently Perseus continued to be worshipped among them and early imperial period accounts speak of shrines dedicated to Perseus. This migration of the Greek inhabitants and their myth from Joppa to the port of Ptolemais, that was located on the shores of the current geographical location of the Red Sea, might also explain why some later sources started to associate the mythical kingdom of King Cepheus with the location of modern day Ethiopia. 
Ancient references:
One of the earliest accounts is given by Lycophron, Alexandra a Greek poet from the 3rd B.C., at the kingdom of Cepheus is Hermes who was watching over Io (the Argive Princess) together with Perseus. The place was kicked by the foot of Hermes ("Hermou pternê") that caused a spring to burst forth. Some late sources identify this place with Aethiopia, but much earlier sources identify the place with cities from the Near East. Some sources have Hermes watching over Io in the ancient Greek city of Byzantium, in the foundation of which Argive colonists had taken part, and where the Bosporus derived its name, from the cow Io having swam across it. From the Thracian Bosporus the story then spread to the Cimmerian Bosporus, Panticapaeum, and as well as the city of Joppa. The Phoenician city of Ioppa/Joppa seems like a good candidate given the fact that Io was further said to have been in Joppa where her descendants the Phoenicia Cadmus and Danaus would thus "return" to mainland Greece. 
1) "The towers of Cepheus and the place that was kicked by the foot of Hermes Laphrios, and the two rocks on which the petrel leapt in quest of food, but carried off in his jaws, instead of a woman, the eagle son of the golden Sire--a male with winged sandals who destroyed his liver. By the harvester’s blade shall be slain the hateful whale dismembered. The harvester who delivered of her pains in birth of horse and man the stony-eyed weasel whose children sprang from her neck. Fashioning men as statues from top to toe he shall envelop them in stone--he that stole the lamp of his three wandering guides" ~ Lycophron, Alexandra 838 ff (trans. Mair) (Greek poet C3rd B.C.) 
2) "Joppa (now the Hebrew town of Jaffa) is said to have existed before the flood; it is situated on a hill, and in front of it is a rock on which they point out the marks made by the chains with which Andromeda was fettered; here there is a cult of the legendary goddess Ceto (the Sea-Monster)." ~ Pliny the Elder, Natural History 5. 69 (trans. Rackham) (Roman encyclopedia C1st A.D.) 
3) "Red water, in color like blood, is found in the land of the Hebrews near the city of Joppa. The water is close to the sea, and the account which the natives give of the spring is that Perseus, after destroying the sea-monster, to which the daughter of Kepheus was exposed, washed off the blood in the spring." ~ Pausanias, Description of Greece 4. 35. 9 (trans. Jones) (Greek travelogue C2nd A.D.)
4) “Seeing the heap of Andromeda’s broken chains beside the Erythraian Sea, and that rock lying on the sand, Earthshaker’s [Poseidon’s] monstrous lump [the Sea Monster turned to stone by Perseus].” ~ Nonnus, Dionysiaca 31. 10 ff (trans. Rouse) (Greek epic C5th A.D.) Angar432 (talk) 03:19, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Joppa

message: Using this translation as example:http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/herodotus-history.txt
We can read: Since the Egyptian name for Jupiter is Amun.   
We can also read: Osiris is named Dionysus (Bacchus) by the Greeks.
I propose to add the names of the corresponding AEthiopian/Egyptian Gods in parentheses, so the Wikipedia text could read: "He describes a capital at Meroe, adding that the only deities worshipped there were Zeus (Amun) and Dionysus (Osiris)." DrLewisphd (talk) 13:51, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough, Herodotus apparently used these native names but surely he wrote Zeus there and not Jupiter as translated into Latin! Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 14:38, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would think so too, but do you have any sourced translation of The Histories which use the term Zeus and Bacchus for that particular quote?  I will add the corresponding AEthiopians/Egyptians gods but leave the Greek's names. DrLewisphd (talk) 14:52, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Herodotus's Histories quotes:  Corresponding AEthiopian/Egyptian Gods 

message: I've changed it from being an Africa stub to being a Middle Eastern history stub. Phoenician Ethiopia wasn't in Africa, unless you view modern Israel as being an African country. M-Henry 18:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, but wasn't Memnon a black king of Ethiopia during the Trojan War? Albmont 02:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethiopia = to Aethopia? 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
*Support: Seeing as it is a Classical Greek term, currently not in use by anything else the redirect kind of loses its function.Bahnheckl (talk) 10:51, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: It has been suggested that "Pliny the Elder ... stated that the term "Ethiopia" was derived from an individual named Aethiops, said to be the son of Hephaestus (aka Vulcan). This etymology was followed by all authorities, until around 1600, when Jacob Salianus in Tome I of his Annales first proposed an alternate hypothesis deriving it from the Greek words aithein "to burn" and ops "face". This is according to a Spanish priest by the name of Francisco Colin (1592–1660), in his book "Sacra India" which includes a lengthy chapter on Ethiopia. Colin mentioned Salianus' opinion as one tentative new hypothesis for the source of the name.India Sacra: hoc est suppetiae sacrae, ex vtraque India in Europam, pro ... by Francisco Colin, p. 141. The 'burnt face' derivation next appeared in works by German authors Christopher von Waldenfels (1677) and Johannes Minellius (1683), and was soon adopted as standard by most European scholars."
This looks interesting but it also looks like original research from primary sources. Does anyone have any RS for this? Richard Keatinge (talk) 16:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a case in which a reliable source supporting such a narrative would be simply incorrect. The ancient etymologica s.v. Αἰθίοψ all include a version of the "burnt-face" etymology, and a few grammatical texts do, too. There's also a bit of logical break in the paragraph: the identification of an eponym is unrelated to the etymology of his name and the land which was said to be named after him.  davidiad { t } 16:53, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  16th century etymology? 

message: I have made a preliminary trawl of google to see what discussions of the 'burnt face' problem in Amharic could be found on the web.
I found a pdf in Amharic treating on this question, and it offers as pretty strong indirect evidence of the falsehood of the 'burnt face' derivation, the observation that the Greek term Ichthyophagi merely represents an earlier Greek attempt to folk-etymologize the same indigenous name, as "fish eaters".  This point hadn't occurred to me before, but it stands to reason. 
I also found an Amharic blogger, (but I'm only offering this here as evidence of the typical Amharic viewpoint, I wouldn't use it on an article as an RS), who wrote a scholarly article discussing the etymology of "Ethiopia". He posted it in May 2013, but for some reason it looks like he has taken that particular post down since then.   He says በዚህ ትርጉም  ብዙዎችን የሚያስማማ  ቢሆንም  በዋናነት ግን ፈረንጆች /ነጮት/ የፈጠሩት ተረት  እንደሆነ  ይታወቃል። "Even though this [burnt face] interpretation is convincing to many, it is however principally known to be a fable invented by whites." He also states that the meaning of the name Ityoppis (the king) is traced to indigenous roots meaning "Jewel gift of the Nile", according to the "Book of Ibrahit" (which I've never heard of before).  Finally, he points out that the 'burnt face' derivation is surely false because two of the earliest Greeks to write about Ethiopians, Homer and Herodotus, both marvelled and admired them for their exceptional beauty and not in insulting terms that came later. 
When I get more time I will look for more, including checking the more scholarly books on Ethiopian history. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 20:03, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. It wasn't clear to me before that some modern Ethiopians take both the fact of a name with a Greek origin, and its meaning, as insults and as requiring historical revision. (To a casual non-Ethiopian reader of the name and its etymology, no insult was or is obvious, and the idea seems mildly odd to me now, but there you go.) For those points the sources you have produced may be adequate and, with consensus, they may even be worth very brief inclusion here. Richard Keatinge (talk) 08:29, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't use words like "requiring historical revision" to describe the Ethiopian traditions on what the name of their own country means.  It shows a total bias. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 11:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Read what Richard said again, Til. You really need to stop making accusations about people based on a misunderstanding of what they've said. The phrase "requiring historical revision" isn't being applied to Ethiopian traditions. Dougweller (talk) 12:35, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: If I'm misunderstanding it, can you explain what is meant here by "requiring historical revision"? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 12:41, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Some Ethiopians think claiming a Greek origin and its meaning for the name requires historical revisionism. Something like that. Dougweller (talk) 14:21, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

text:  (Thanks dab for that link to WP:TIGERS, it's a wonderfull essay that I'd never seen before. Paul August ☎ 16:00, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: 'Ichthyophagi' - food for thought?

message: Apparently the modern Ethiopian position that I keep finding in sources like the above has been laid out by the Ethiopian scholar Meriras Aman Belay in Metshafe Abrihit, referred to above but misspelled. I have found several secondary sources describing and endorsing his research and would like to see his actual book.  He says the vast body of Ethiopic documentation attests that the name Ethiopia is derived from a term with native roots. The Semitic kings named Ityoppis, often spelled as "Etiyopus" I and II, are more originally Inqtyoppis, Jewel gift. I have seen numerous estimates for their reigns ranging anywhere between 2500 to 1500 BC. Following this, the full name in Ethiopic was Inqtyoppa-gihon (Inqtyoppagihon), Gihon being an ancient name for the Nile. The folk etymology "Ichtyophagi" meaning "fish eaters" in Greek is based on this form.  Over time, the Ethiopic form becomes Inqtyoppazion, note this is just a pronunciation change and has nothing to do with "Zion", because that is actually spelled in Semitic with TS, not Z. Eventually even the -zion part was dropped in favor of Ityoppya (Ethiopia).  The Greek name Aithiopia is first attested in Homer, ca. 800 BC.  The account that it was named in honor of Aithiops is first found in Pliny. Around this time we also begin to see a myth that the Ethiopians' skin was burnt when Phaeton drove the chariot of the sun too close to the earth, but this myth does not explain the term "Ethiopia". The account that the Aithi- part comes from "to burn" first comes with Servius, 400 AD. It seems he also originally proposed that the -op part came from "to roast" (optein).  The account that the name means "burned face" has not been found before 850 AD. However, when Servius was reedited for the printing press some centuries later, it was altered from optein (roast) to ops (face) to agree with the later theory. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 13:19, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inqtyoppagihon - timeline 

message: The IP using the addresses starting with 71.246 is the indefinitely blocked Til Eulenspiegel socking. Dougweller (talk) 19:15, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I tried anyway to give him the benefit of the doubt with the material since the Bible is apparently his area. But it seems like he was filibustering there as well. Middayexpress (talk) 19:57, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sockpuppetry by Til Eulenspiegel 

message: It appears that in the zeal of trying to distance the blackness of the Ethiopians from the concept of Ethiopia, a troll had introduced the etymology of Africa which is unrelated.  This of course causes confusion and I removed it 2604:CA00:12C:C271:0:0:1060:5027 (talk) 19:16, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope that this edit removes any confusion while making clear the difference between the ancient geographic terms Aethiopia and Africa. Richard Keatinge (talk) 09:50, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed "Africa" reference