Talk:Polyrhythm

message: 3 over 2 polyrhythms are not symmetric. Why did you undo my edit?  To play 3/2 polyrhythms as quater note, eighth, eighth, quater note is defiant of the basic principles of polyrhythmic technique.  I'm going to undo the edit, if you wanna argue with me about it, you can do it here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.245.99.216 (talk) 23:15, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: 3 over 2 Polyrhythms

message: The death metal band Meshuggah also have complex polyrhythms in their music.
Not really. They're mostly dealing in polymetrics; odd-metered (like 11/16, 23/16 and 13/8 and so forth), repeating "cells" over 4/4, repeated x many times so they resolve over 4/4 (which the snare and crash/stack cymbals keep steady). Some pure polyrhythms here and there but not really complex at all.
: Ah, but all polymetres are polyrhythmic! NcLean
They're not dealing in polytempo. Frank Zappa would be a much better example, or drummers like Pete Magadini and Virgil Donati.
It could be argued that Meshuggah isn't a DEATH metal band either, but that's sort of splitting hairs. I'd just write "metal band".
: Go ahead and make the changes in the article :) Be bold! Dysprosia 07:18, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Meshuggah

message: Polyrhythm can be used to describe several effects, not only the one described in the article. In fact, "polyrhythmic" means nothing more than "more than one rhythm at the same time". As such, virtually every polyphonic work can be called polyrhythmic.
There are several polyrhythmic devices though. They can be divided into three groups. The first one is "n against m", which means that while one part plays n time units, the other part play m time unit (e.g. "3 against 2", which means triplets, 3:2). This is the effect described in the article. The second one is "n in (over) m", which means that both parts use the same time unit, but one of them accents them in groups of n, while the other uses groups of m units. Hemioles and cross-rhythms, as well as polymetrics are manifestations of this. The last group is that of rhythmic displacement, meaning that a rhythmic fragment is played at an "inappropriate" moment. African music frequently features several patterns starting at different points in relation to each other.
Of course, effects from all 3 groups can be combined and cascaded.
FZ and Peter Magadini are excellent examples.  A simple example is Eric Dolphy playing Monk's 'Epistrophy'.  He often used a repeating Db-Ab-Db-Eb-Bb-Eb (making it 6/8) for the bass and piano. Over that was the melody in 4/4 played by bass clarinet (usually) and drums.  An example you can do right now is: tap out 4/4 with your foot and 3/4 with your hand so that the four foot-taps and the 3 hand-taps take the same amount of time to do.  Each measure (and each note group and/or sub-group if it's FZ) of each time signature must take the same time to complete or it isn't a polyrhythm.
cliard@hotmail.com
:Please Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks. Hyacinth 20:11, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You also may want to look at the Hemiola article, which explains that "A hemiola is not an example of a polyrhythm." As this article clarifies, a polyrhythm is the "simultaneous sounding of two or more independent rhythms" not successive sounding, as in a hemiola. Hyacinth 20:26, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polyrhythm, polymetrics, cross-rhythm, hemiola 

message: please note: I have reversed the order of the rhythms in the exmples, placing the "quick" beats on the top, and the "slow" beats on the bottom. This is to allow people trying to learn these polyrhythms visually to associate which rhythm is played on which hand, and more easily distinguish the beat. If you find, however, that this a more difficult way of learning, please feel free to change things back.
    Well, you should realize that this article isn't merely for snare drummers, and that many non-handed instruments use these techniques too.  Though I doubt it matters in any form which table goes on top.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.245.99.216 (talk) 23:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Order of rhythms

message: The last four paragraphs of the first section (beginning with "Every time a beat is introduced possessing a metronomical correlation to the faster portion of the polyrhythmic interval...") do nothing but confuse me - they are completely unclear and read to me as almost deliberately obfuscated. The phrasing and diction is unnecessarily complex. Are there any objections to removing these paragraphs? 24.21.60.255 03:36, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For the record, that was me - I forgot to sign in first. cfallin|(talk) 03:36, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last four paragraphs of first section 

message: the how to is great! David G Brault 03:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Great 

message: This article has a lot of good things in it, but I think the "Usage and history" section is a bit of a jumble.  I'd like to propose reorganising it for three reasons: one, to improve the flow and make clearer separations between polyrhythm and its uses in different traditions; two, to help address some of the "cultural bias" issues mentioned by others; three, to make the article more amenable to future expansion.  Here's a suggested outline:
West African Music (1st two paragraphs of current version)
Popular Music (subsequent paragraphs)
Western Classical Music (Renaissance usage into 20th century classical)
For this last section, the earliest example of which I'm aware is Christopher Tye's "infamous" Sit Fast -- is anyone aware of others?  I would also mention John Baldwine, Elway Bevin, Anthony Holborne, and Peeter Phillips, all of whom delighted in polyrhythms in their surviving œuvre.  I'm unsure how to bridge the gulf between the Tudor flowering of rhythmically complex pieces, and those arising from 20th century experimentalism... or if there are other examples contemporaneous with but outside of the English Renaissance.  Hopefully the composers mentioned will provide a good start on which to expand.  Thoughts? Chang E 16:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And don't forget Stravinsky, Bartók and Hindemith. --B0cean (talk) 04:35, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed restructuring

message: [I have just reinseted this paragraph as the gentleman below said I am free to do.  I have read Mr. Magadini's material, seen him play live, and can attest to his existence as a musician and one who should me mentioned in this section:]
"Two recognized methods for teaching and learning Polyrhythms were written by drummer/percussionist and educator Peter Magadini in the late 20th century. The first ( for all musicians ) " Polyrhythm The Musicians Guide" ( originally published by Bob Yeager and Try Publishing ) now with: Hal Leonard Publishing USA and " Polyrhythms for the Drumset" with: Alfred Publishing USA. Both works are published and in print or contact"
cliard@hotmail.com
Two recognized methods for teaching and learning Polyrhythms were written by drummer/percussionist and educator Peter Magadini in the late 20th century. The first ( for all musicians ) " Polyrhythm  The Musicians Guide" ( originally published by Bob Yeager and Try Publishing ) now with: Hal Leonard Publishing USA  and " Polyrhythms for the Drumset"  with: Alfred Publishing USA.
Both works are published and in print or contact :  http://www.petermagadini.com
I removed this paragraph as it seemed suspiciously spammy to me... followed the history back and found that it was the user's only contribution. If I've jumped the gun and this is really useful content, please feel free to add it again. Alexforcefive 22:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed this paragraph

message: Clearly, there is misuse of terminology and bias in the article.  Do we have any Ethnomusicologists and Music Theorists willing to collaborate and rewrite?  It really should be done, b/c this article really gets at the messiness and (likely unintentional) misinformation that Wikipedia is really most famous for.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.20.129.255 (talk) 13:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite Article 

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Babatunde Olatunji Drums of Passion.jpg

message: I think the 2 vs 3 and 3 vs 4 box diagrams are labeled the wrong ways round aren't they?  Isn't the 2 rhythm the rhythm having 2 beats in the measure and the 3 rhythm the one having 3?  Rather than the 2 and 3 denoting the number of common subdivisions per beat?
213.68.15.100 (talk) 17:14, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Labels wrong on box notations? 

message: The labels on the boxes showing polyrhythms (using the X notation) for 2 against 3 & 3 against 4 need to be switched.  I took the liberty of reversing them, in addition to all passages referring to them for clarification (3 aginst 4 changed to 4 against 3, etc.). 76.235.13.115 (talk) 14:49, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Labels on boxes incorrect 

message: Mostly unknown outside the very provincial and remote regions of southern Italy, the southern Italian music, particularly that found in the region of Calabria, Campania, and Sicily is very heavy in polyrhythm.  I'm mainly referencing the dance tunes played on the zampogna (bagpipe) and organetto (diatonic folk accordian) and accompanied by the tamborello (tambourine).  Listen to the first few videos on this page to understand what I'm talking about: http://usonu.blogspot.com/.  My question is whether or not there is room in this article to include this or is it too obscure of a tradition unlike African polyrhythm and Frank Zappa?  I would be willing to write something up on this for the article but I don't have the technological ability to link to sources - all of which are in the Italian language.  There is very little info on this area of music in the English language.  I just happen to be an expert on it ;)  But from an ethnomusicological perspective I think it is very appealing.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zampognaro (talk • contribs) 23:57, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Southern Italian Folk Music 

message: Anybody else think Piano Phase by Steve Reich would be a great example of how polyrhythm can exhibit emergent properties depending on the precise resonance of the individual rhythms? FusionKnight (talk) 18:14, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Piano Phase 

message: Does anyone remember Brittens War Requiem? I think this is a very good example of polyrhythm. I've even sung this myself attending a choir roughly 20 years ago, and we had a hard time to stay in rhythm in the 3rd movement because the soloists constantly tried to distract us (but they had to, because it was in the score that way, so ... ;)) What I especially mean is the "Hostias et preces" "boys'" choir part, where the Great Orchestra had a completely different rhythm than the following which the choir had (6/8; occasionally time change to 9/8) and would irregularly INTERRUPT the choir with their arythmic singing. Weird part. -andy 92.229.179.194 (talk) 22:49, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Britten "War Requiem" III. Movement "Offertorium" 

message: Why isn't it spelt "polyrrhythm", with rrh as in other Greek compound words (arrhythmia, gonorrhea, hemorrhoids)?
:Presumably the well established English prefix "poly-" and root word "rhythm", as opposed to the nonexistent "hemor-" and "rhoid". Hyacinth (talk) 06:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it is not a loan word from revived Attic Greek, where πολυρρυθμός/polyrrhythmos has indeed -rrh- (the rule being that in compound words ῥ/rh (etymologically from Proto-Greek σρ/sr) becomes ῤῥ/rrh after a short vowel; e.g.: αἱμο+ρροΐδες vs. ἀνω+ροή "upflow"), but instead it is a Neolatin construction based on Greek roots (poly+rhythmus). In Neolatin, the ῥ rule does not apply; confer Eurynorhynchus, instead of *Eurynorrhynchus. --Omnipaedista (talk) 20:06, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling 

message: I know that on the King Crimson album "Discipline" they use polyrhythms (e.g. "Frame by Frame", "Thela Hun Ginjeet" and "Discipline"), but what kind of polyrhythms are they? Or how are they "officially" polyhythms?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.147.183 (talk) 09:46, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  King Crimson 

message: Thx guys, expecially for the reference to the Dave Penalosa book.
I added some info on Schillinger's theory of rhythm, which I think looks gives an interesting perspective on rhythm, meter and polyrhythm. Actually, from Schillinger's interference perspective, 2:1 could be seen as the simplest "polyrhythm" with a resulting "accent pattern" (for example, 8th notes with every other one accented). Now make that 4:2:1 and you got the accent pattern or meter of one bar of 2/4. Make it 8:4:2:1 and you got the accent pattern of one bar of 4/4. That would sort of unify the "theory of cross rhythms" with the theory of "meter" - which was one of Schillinger's aims, a "general theory of rhythm". Maybe that perspective can help clear up some of the (sometimes confusing) terminology that western music theorists have come up with for rhythm. --Thewolf37 (talk) 12:32, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Great Article 

message: ... needs work. It's currently an autobiography. More references would be good as well - does anyone know any related sources apart from Ladzekpo? Hyarmendacil (talk) 08:13, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cultural understanding of polyrthyms 

message: "One of the best known examples of a 3 against 2 polyrhythm is the Ukrainian Bell Carol, 'Carol of the Bells'."
This is wrong on three levels. First, as I state in Talk in the Carol of the Bells article, I think it is dubious to  claim that the ostinato is, in fact, a polyrhythm. The origins of the song belongs to the Ukrainian text syllabification. I would like to see the research that allows this claim.
Second, for it to be polyrhythmic, there needs to be more than one part (as per definition) to create the polyrhythm character. So the third note of the four-note motive would need to have the feel of an accented beat. But in the "Carol of the Bells," it is not. The emphasized beat, as in most non-jazz 3/4 meter pieces, is on beat 1 and only beat 1. In other words, you would have to say/sing the English lyrics like this for it to have polyrhythmic qualities: HARK hark THE bells. However it is correctly performed (vocally and instrumentally) like this: HARK hark the bells (NO emphasis on "the"). Based on this, "Carol of the Bells" cannot even be used as a memorable phrase to learn a 3 vs. 2 pattern. (And the article just above this talks about "emphasizing.")
Lastly, I think the phrase "the best known" is exaggerated. In the many theory classes I have attended in three university degrees that has discussed polyrhythm, "Carol of the Bells" was never used as an example nor even mentioned. Yes, that's anecdotal, but since my profession (choral conducting) is a major performer of this piece, you would think that if this was THE "best known" example of 3 vs. 2 polyrhythm, we would have known it by now.
I'm deleting the sentence. --B0cean (talk) 06:55, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I was extremely confused (more than I've ever been on an encyclopedia page) with the Carl of the Bells reference. I went over it in my head for a while and couldn't understand what it was getting at. Not only is it arguably not a polyrhythm, but it is so badly explained I could not even understand why it might be considered one! I searched on google and found nothing relating to 'composite polyrhythms'. I think the whole section should be deleted or explained more thoroughly. 72.230.117.65 (talk) 21:31, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carol of the Bells reference in article 

message: I'm not sure if this section is accurate, as it is unsourced and I can't find any information about the subject. Regardless of its accuracy, I feel it would be more appropriate at the end of the article, or in a separate article entirely. Redeyeglasses 20:56, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: In fine arts section

message: It's a bit odd that no mention is made of, for example Arthur Sullivan, who wrote dozens of polyrhythmic songs. Also, the romantic-era method of writing polyrhythm as, for example,, marking one bar 9/8 and another 3/4 (Night has spread her pall, The Yeomen of the Guard), or many other variations, isn't even touched upon in the article. Adam Cuerden (talk) 09:29, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Romantic era classical music, and notation 

message: In the "use in popular music" section, there is a LOT of bogus claims that have nothing with polyrhythms to do. We need to clear up the difference between polymeter and polyrhythm.
–– ♫ Ellie♫ 18:59, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  We need to get this cleared up 

message: The page about polytonality leads to a list of polytonal pieces. Perhaps polyrhythmic works should be listed as well. Holdonspirit (talk) 16:25, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of polyrhythmic pieces 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* Brahms Symphony No. 2, finale, bars 126-142.wav
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:07, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: I was looking for examples of music with 3 beats against 4 beats, so I could remember them when I wanted to practice it. Dpes anyone have any suggestions? WordwizardW (talk) 08:28, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  examples of music with 3 beats against 4 beats 

message: Is not mentioned at all- aint they amingst the most famous prog metal geoups? 77.20.157.224 (talk) 20:09, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pantera