Talk:Zodiac Killer/Archive 1

message: I think this article should be included in the category "Mysterious People". There is obviously a lot of speculation on who he is and why he has done the things he has done. If no one cares, I'll go ahead and put it in.--Hazillow 11:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mysterious People

message: This is the Zodiac Speaking.
makes everyone listen - (unsigned)
So does farting in a bathtub, with considerably less harm to society. - Nunh-huh 07:35, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Older comments (from the 60s?)

message: Wasn't Ted Kaczynski (the unabomber) thought to have been a suspect in these murders?
--ZekeMacNeil 14:29, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Can it be proven that the DNA was not imprinted on the materials by any of the handlers after Zodiac wrote it?  If not, the test can't rule out, as seemingly insane as the option is, one of them in fact being Zodiac to begin with, and faking the seeming lack of literary competency. --Chr.K. 11:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unabomber 

message: I agree with an earlier comment; too much attention is spent on Greysmith and his theories and not the total sum of the research done over the past thirty years.  There's dispute as to what said Allen did the day of the Lake Berryessa murders and his supposed statement about "The Most Dangerous Game".  Some of this testimony came years after the murders.
I think it would be fruitful to examine the entry on Jack the Ripper and consider its organization.  There the list of named suspects was broken out into a separate article, but for now, a separate section of Zodiac suspects would be sufficient to start with. Jimbonator 11:06, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I wrote the original start to this article over a year ago heavily based on Greysmith because that was all I had at hand. If you have other sources, at the very least please add them to the References section so that others can improve on this article. -- llywrch 01:19, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually have begun reorganizing your material and adding material and references from other sources.  I don't know if or when it'll be ready. Jimbonator 01:54, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Break out the suspects

message: I hate to break it to y'all, but Heriberto Seda was convicted of 3 of the Zodiac murders in '98... (Just don't ask where I heard it...)  
On Red Jack, see Cornwell's book claiming Walter Sickert did it.  Trekphiler 03:50, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI, Seda was convicted of copycat murders decades after the Zodiac killings. Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 19:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Seda was a NYC serial killer.  He has not been linked to any of the Bay Area's Zodiac spree. Jimbonator 20:16, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The usual suspects?

message: One of the suspect, possibly Allen was in the habit of getting people to lick envelope for him, because the taste "made him sick".  IF anyone knows who it was, and has a cite, can they add it to the article? Rich  Farmbrough 12:14 18  May 2006 (UTC).
: I've heard this claim before, on zodiackiller.com I believe.  If it's true Allen didn't like the taste of envelope stamps, then why not use a moist sponge (like a postal clerk would) rather than ask someone to lick his stamps for him?
: I've never seen this "fact" properly cited.  It sounds more like wishful thinking from the Allen-Did-It camp. Jimbonator 08:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Um, I'd say it's total horsehit. 74.98.247.64 16:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Envelope DNA

message: In Superboy#182, a dishonest Gotham Gazette reporter misled Bruce Wayne into thinking that a "Zodiac Killer" had slain his parents and others.
22:14, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: In Media

message: I added this tag because the 'Murders' section is a little long. (Sorry, didn't know where to put it, so I put it on the top). Maybe someone should break it up into chronological order, or something like that. I would do this but I don't want to break it into too many sections. Cheers riana 17:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  re: sections tag 

message: article first says, "Ferrin...waitress at Terry's Waffle House" and then says, "Ferrin worked at the International House of Pancakes."  where did she work???
206.80.23.226 18:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction in Article 

message: What is this word? It would appear to be some kind of pun on 'synchronicity', but I'm not certain that this is the type of place for this kind of thing.
I'm extremely perplexed by this. Googling this phrase shows 79 results in total, the vast majority of which come from this article and mirrors. I'm removing the phrase since it doesn't seem to fit in with an encyclopaedia article, but if you want to revert, please let me know why this term is needed.
ManicParroT 01:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The term Zynchronicity was coined by Zodiac researchers.  It is a play on the word synchronicity in relation to certain strange events in the Zodiac case that seem to be too coincidental to be mere chance.  As to whether or not it should remain as a part of the Wikipedia entry here is certainly open to debate as it is the sort of “inside” joke or pun shared primarily among researchers into the case.  Hope that helps.  Labyrinth13 22:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zynchronicity? 

message: This Zodiac Killer has "hunted" and killed mostly women, which would lead most people to say it was a man, and through what it said about the asking a woman out in high school it shouldn't be assumed that it was a man when it could possibly mean that it was a girl.
What if it was a Woman who is the Zodiac Killer taking in that all of the suspects where men over looking that a woman could have done it.
COULD A WOMAN HAVE DONE IT?
Raice 19:35, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: -> I have just read the poem "Sick of living/unwilling to die" in the page "http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer_letters", that was found carved into a desk at the Riverside City College Library (back in December 1966) and is believed to be the work of Zodiac (if he is actually involved in the Cheri Jo Bates case). The poem is written in an unconventional style and it ends with the letters "rh", that can be assumed to be the initials of the writer. If this is the case, then the initials surprisingly match those of Robert E. Hunter Jr. and, therefore, I think that this fact should be added in the list of indications against him, as a rather interesting clue. What do you think?Alexchondros 20:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zodiac Killer 

message: I took this clause out of "The Johns escape" section as it's somewhat victim blame-y. He's a serial killer - he doesn't need a reason. Natalie 03:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "but she refused to lose control and give him a reason" 

message: I've semi-protected this article due to anonymous IP disruption. DurovaCharge! 19:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Semi-protection removed.  Report again if the problem recurs. DurovaCharge! 22:45, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protection 

message: I'd like to propose "The Zodiac Project".
This entry is beginning to stabilize but still needs desperate attention to detail.  The various sections need to be rewritten with an eye toward bias and concision; footnotes and documentation need to be located; GDL images need to be added; and so forth.  But it's a huge entry and a monster for any one person.
My proposal is to break up the work among various like-minded Wikipedians.  This seems to be a popular entry, so hopefully we can find 6 - 8 people to volunteer their time and contribute to making this a top-notch entry.  My idea is to farm out a particular section to each person -- i.e. the Mageau/Ferrin homicide to one person, Andrew Todd Walker to another -- and to recruit others to find unlicensed images and documentation for the whole.  For example, Labyrinth13 used the Internet Archives to document his entry on "Mr. X".
Is anyone interested?
-- Jimbonator 19:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll be happy to lend a hand at editing.  I've done a bit of work on the suspect O'Hare entry since working on Mr. X, but anything I can do to help, just let me know.  Excellent proposal, by the way.  Labyrinth13 14:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Credited, yes, but not by general agreement.  The five I'm counting (I only edited the intro, didn't write it) are Jensen, Faraday, Ferrin, Shepard, and Stine.  Note that two others were wounded by Zodiac, but not fatally: Mageau and Hartnell.  There is substantial evidence a single individual did these five killings, and that this individual corresponded with the police and newspapers under the name of Zodiac.  The others are more tenuous.  Johns was neither wounded nor killed, and there is growing suspicion about Zodiac's involvement.  Bates, Domingos, and Edwards are speculation, with Bates' being the strongest.  (I personally feel the possibility of Bates' connection stronger than Johns'.) Jimbonator 06:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Ed -- I was not the one to remove the images, so I can't speak to that.  As for the amount of research you've put into this case, I won't dispute that either.  Please contribute what you can.  Jimbonator 10:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Zodiac Project 

message: I recently restored the list of external links that someone had removed.  
I don't know why someone felt that they needed to remove that section, unless they believed that the section was inappropriate.  I can't find anyplace in the Wikipedia rules that forbids creating a section for external links (and I can't imagine why they would be prohibited, provided that the links aren't spam or don't point to sites that are primarily of a commercial nature or to a blog).  Anyone know the answer to that one?  Labyrinth13 17:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Everything I've seen says external links are fine.  No idea why anyone would remove them. Jimbonator 08:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, Jimbo, that is what I thought.  In the future, I'll just have to keep a better watch on this page and try to catch such vandalism earlier.  Labyrinth13 14:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: External links

message: The following is a message I received today from 'Labyrinth13':
Please stop adding inappropriate external links to Wikipedia. It is considered spamming and Wikipedia is not a vehicle for advertising or promotion. Since Wikipedia uses nofollow tags, additions of links to Wikipedia will not alter search engine rankings. If you continue spamming, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. To date, you have chosen to continuously spam the Zodiac killer entry with links to your website, despite repeated requests that you stop doing so. This message constitutes yet another formal notice to cease and desist. Thanks. Labyrinth13 14:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please join in on the new discussion section below Talk:Zodiac_Killer#Citing_sources re the proper way to add citations and references.  It has been pointed out by Jeffpw that the entire article needs to be completely overhauled and reformatted in order to insure that un-sourced statements in the entry are either given the proper citations or be removed altogether, and that those statements already cited be reformatted to comply with the rule about inline citations.  There is also a discussion on how sources not entered as inline citations should appear in the References section. This new discussion should be a huge help to clear things up for everyone involved here and is a good start toward making the entry comply with the actual rules of Wikipedia.  Thanks.  Labyrinth13 20:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The "References" Section

message: She's mentioned in the article as being one of the three who actually heard Zodiac's voice, but is not mentioned further. I presume she took the call in the Ferrin/Mageau attack, but that's just a guess. Please either expand the info about her or delete the name (I would have done it myself, but the page is annoyingly protected). Jeffpw 09:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Who is Nancy Slover?

message: There are a number of problems with this entry:
It has been suggested by some investigators that the letter was actually forged by Robert Graysmith, the political cartoonist who wrote a popular though highly inaccurate book on the case in 1986.
First, there is no source for the "suggested by some investigators" accusation. Second, there is no source or explanation for the "highly inaccurate" rebuke. Considering the alarming amount of work done on this article by individuals who seem to have much invested in the Zodiac case, this is a red-flag that suggests it was written by those with axes to grind.  RoyBatty42 22:36, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This whole article is problematic. Not one inline citation, so who knows what is actually sourced and what was just thought up because it sounded plausible. It's a shame it's protected, and that there's so much edit warring been going on. It has the potential to be a very good article, if energy were not wasted in senseless fights about the position of external refs. Jeffpw 22:39, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm sure that I'm speaking for all the other regular editors here when I say that your help in providing inline citations for the entry would be most welcome!  And I agree that there is much about the article that needs some serious clean-up, from run-on sentences to uncited sources to violations of NPOV.  Mediation re link placement should be over soon and hopefully, the page will be unprotected quickly.  I hope that you will keep checking back and offer up your assistance toward improving the article.  Thanks.  Labyrinth13 04:18, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If I edited this article, you and Tom both wouldn't have to worry about external links and their location. According to WP:MOS, websites used as refs may not be repeated in the external links section, so that becomes a moot point. For the rest of us looking in, this is really seeming like a pissing contest. I'm not a fan of wikidrama, so I would request that the page be unprotected. A better solution to me for this problem would be to block/ban anybody engaging in an edit war over this article. Jeffpw 23:28, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Jeffpw: I think your suggestion re not including links used as cited sources in the External links section is a good one and I for one will be more than happy to stand by such a decision.  Now if you can get others to agree to the same standard and most importantly, if you can enforce that rule, than you have my full blessing to so act as the guardian.  By all means, please make your suggested edits once the page is unlocked.  Re the dispute: It may seem like a simple “war of the wills” on its face or to anyone who has not bothered to read the dispute in its entirety.  But I will remind you and anyone else who reads this that the whole thing started not over simple link placement per se, but rather over Voigt’s multiple instances of linking the first three words in the entry directly to his website, zodiackiller.  (Have a look at the page history and the discussion area to see for yourself).  I hope that having to resort to a block or ban against editors never occurs.  However, you or anyone else who has an interest in preserving the integrity of the Zodiac killer entry should bear in mind that there may come a time when you, as did Jimbonator and myself, may also have to step up to the plate to defend what you think are abuses to the entry, especially against editors who seem to have virtually no clue as to what Wikipedia is really all about.  Now, I've learned a thing or two since the dispute started, but please don't try and make this out to be as simple of an issue as you seem to be implying above.  It is not.  Please read the whole history of the nature of the dispute before making such blanket statements. Thanks for your comments and I look forward to working with you on the entry in the future.  Labyrinth13 20:41, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Ed Neil: You or anyone else can request that the entry be unprotected at anytime.  However, it probably will not be allowed until the mediator issues his final thoughts on the dispute that resulted in the page being locked in the first place.  Thanks for being patient (to you and everyone else here).  Labyrinth13 20:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Robert Graysmith