Talk:Rum (endonym)

message: Arthur Jeffery is considered the leading authority on the loanwords that occur in the Qur'an. His 1936 'The Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an' is still authoritative in the field. When discussing the term Rum, as another example of a non-Arabic word in the Qur'an, he writes:
The word may have come directly from the Greek into Arabic through contacts with the Byzantine Empire such as we see among the Ghassanids, or it may be as Mingana, Syriac Influence, 98, thinks, that it came through the Syriac. It is at any rate significant that Rum occurs not infrequently in the Safaite inscriptions, cf. Littiimnu, Semitic Inscriptions, 112 ff. ; Hyckmans, Now propres, i, 315, 309, and also in the old poetry, cf. the Mu'allaqa of Tarafa, 1. 23 (Horovitz, KU, 113), and is found in the Nemara inscription (RES, i, No. 483).
He mentions Greek and Syriac as the likely transmitters of the word. He also mentions another scholar who made the case for a Syriac transmission. 
The book can be found here, see page 146:
https://archive.org/details/foreignvocabular030753mbp/page/n163/mode/2up?q=byzantine
If ever there was an authoritative source.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A469:A4F1:1:D88A:D8A9:9F87:1E3F (talk) 16:06, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The idea that the word comes from Persian is problematic 

message: Edit warring to remove mention of certain languages under the guise of "adding sourced information" is disruptive editing.
"Nevertheless, Rûm corresponds to the Greek term Ρωμιοί (Roman) used in older times to define the subjects of the Byzantine emperor..." -- Nationalisms vs Millets:Building Collective Identities in Ottoman Thrace, Paraskevas Konortas, Spatial Conceptions of the Nation: Modernizing Geographies in Greece and Turkey, ed. Nikiforos Diamandouros, Caglar Keyder, Thalia Dragonas, page 164. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:30, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The etymology of this term should be for sure given in the article. Anyway, according to the source given in the article, Rûm does not correspond to Ρωμιοί, as it was implied in the former version. Its usage in the muslim world is quite different. (pg. 21-24) . So, one could write "Rûm from Greek Ρωμιοί", but not "Rûm (Greek: Ρωμιοί)".Alex2006 (talk) 12:53, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the word, Rûm, was used in the Namara inscription(per Encyclopaedia of Islam, Vol. VIII, page 601, C.E. Bosworth, "Rûm occurs in Arabic literature with reference to the Romans, the Byzantines and the Christian Melkites interchangeably. This issue of nomenclature is the first problem that confronts the reader of Arabic literature. Most often, however, the reference is to the Byzantines, which is the meaning followed in this entry. The sources for the pre-Islamic times include the important Namara inscription. All the literary sources were written in later Islamic times, deriving from the historian Ibn al-Kalbl. In the Islamic period, the first reference to Rum occurs in the Kur'an (Surat al-Rum, XXX, 1-5", the opening sentence clearly needs to be changed. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:02, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: If there are Arabic pre-islamic sources using Rum, then what you write is correct. Alex2006 (talk) 03:33, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why were the Greek and Persian terms removed from the lead? 

message: Hi Beshogur what are your thoughts about the illustrations that have been this article? Piledhighandeep (talk) 20:50, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: What's Rum community? Hearing for the first time. Checked the pictures, nothing tells about "Rum" there. What does Greek underground cities has to do with that article?  Beshogur (talk) 21:29, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The Rum community are/were the remaining christians in the Arab and Ottoman world dating to before Arab and Ottoman rule, when those regions were ruled by the eastern roman empire, at which time all groups living in those regions were still christian (eg. before Muhammad, see the references in this article's intro for much more detail, as discussed in the article, the name Rum comes from this Roman identity and is used in the Quran). Some of the Rum community spoke Greek dialects like Rumca (the name comes from Rum), since Greek had been the official language of the eastern roman (byzantine) empire, although most did not speak the Greek dialects used today in Greece. Others spoke only languages that became official and widespread during later empires, like Arabic (Antioch, Palestine, Syria), or Turkish (Karamanlides), and some spoke Armenian (Hayhurum) or Laz (around Trabzon), but all were members of the former eastern roman church, dating to when it was the official religion of the whole area (in ancient and medieval times), so all used Greek at times as a ritual language in their churches, just as the Western Roman (Catholic) churches once used Latin throughout all of Europe as a ritual language, regardless of what local language was being spoken in each country (Ireland, France, etc). In the Middle East, and in Turkey away from the immediate Mediterranean coast, few of the Rum community had any relationship to what is now called ancient Greece (and none called themselves Greek until the late 1800s, they would call themselves Romios, that is Rum/Roman as discussed in the references, or Rum in Turkish and Arabic). Nowadays, however, especially for those who were resettled in Greece, many descendants (even those coming from communities that originally spoke only Laz, Turkish, or Armenian) identify as Greek and speak only Greek. Others have resettled in Russia, or the US, and have become integrated into those cultures. However, since the article is about the Rum community as it exists (and existed) in the Middle East and Turkey, the illustrations focus on that original culture. Speaking specifically about the underground cities, they are referred to in the contemporary Arab sources as Rum cities, and the inhabitants of those towns continued to be referred to as Rum when later conquered by the Sultanate of Rum, which took its name from them when it began to rule over them. Rumi, who lived in the Sultanate of Rum near to some of these underground cities, gets his name from this word (Rum) also, and he mentions the local Rum in his poems, including a local Rum girl he had taken as a servant. The word/identity (Rum) continued to be used by the local christians of these underground towns through Ottoman times (early 20th century). Since they are related to so many applications of the word Rum discussed in the article (Rumi, Sultanate of Rum, Rum Ortodoks church), these underground cities in central Turkey seem a worthwhile illustration.  Piledhighandeep (talk) 22:57, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion of Illustrations

message: Türk dilinde "Rum" veya Rûm  kelimesi coğrafi anlamda Balkanlar ve Batı Avrupa'yı anlatmak için kullanılır. 
Mesela; İstanbul'un Asya yakası Anadolu'dur. Avrupa yakası Rumeli veya oriinal şivesiyleUrumelidir.
Bunun karşıtı Anadolu veya Anatolia'dır.
--3210 (talk) 14:40, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Please provide an English translation of the above, as this is the English language Wikipedia.Blue Riband► 20:21, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rumeli ve Anadolu 

message: "...also romanized as Roum, is a derivative of the Aramaic (rhπmÈ)..."
What type of transliteration was used for this form of Aramaic? I tried to find some informations on the use of Pi in Aramaic transliteration and transliteration in general for all language but no information. Same thing for the uppercase è. دانيالوه (talk) 20:22, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  What type of transliteration was used?