Talk:Adjara/Archive 1

message: Where are the latest developments in the Ajaria conflict?
ChrisM, April 27, 2004
----
Very funny description of the latest developments. It doesn't describe the basic conflict. The oppositional movement is called supporters of Saakashvili. Igor Ivanov's talks with Abashidze are not mentioned at all. Very funny. That's world history Walt Disney style. ChrisM, May 10, 2004
:So edit the article yourself. :-) That's the whole point of Wikipedia - if you don't like an article or you have info to contribute, you can just jump in and change it. -- ChrisO 17:17, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

message: Mcx327 a couple days ago removed "forcibly" in the sentence saying that the Ajarians were forcibly Islamized during the Ottoman rule. Did they convert by choice, or did they have no choice? --Hottentot
Typically under Islamic Sharia law, forcible conversion is not allowed. But as you know, these rules might have been violated. If they converted over several centuries consider this voluntary, if over one year or decade this is probably forcible conversion. Also, I do not know the current Musim vs Christian mix, I presume current Georgian government does not want to emphasize division of Georgians. If this is so, why Ajarian flag has a cross? Abdulnr 12:30, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit by Mcx327 

message: There are several reasons to move the page to Adjara. 
Google:
*Ajaria  67,600
*Adjara 82,700  
Google News:
*Ajaria 9
*Adjara 24
The government of the region uses the name "Adjara" only . Kober 17:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename 

message: As Adjarians, we adopt Islam voluntarily! 
Now in adjara, there is a Christianization through psychological and economic press. Adjara is an autonomous republic because of Islam. So we don't accept the new flag. And we want to perform Adhan at the mosque.
These are realities of Adjara and Adjarians.
:Adjara has its own official flag whether you accept it or not. Georgia is a free country and doesn't press Muslims to accept Christianity. I doubt you are not Adjarian at all. Your pattern of behavior can be seen as vandalism and may get you blocked from editing Wikipedia. Kober 11:33, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You should provide your sources before making such questionable edits. Adjarians have never protested against a new flag. I'm definitely sure you don't come from Adjara (despite your username). Adjaria has autonomy not due to Islam, but because of politics. There is much larger Muslim community in another region of Georgia, but they don't enjoy autonomy. Anyway, your edits are biased POV and vandalism. Kober 14:22, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't argue that Adjara is not autonomous. I'm not Adjarian, I'm from Tbilisi, but I have many relatives and friends in Adjara and know the region very well. You should provide sources for your claims and restore the flag and governmental statistics. You actually violated the 3RR. I'm not going to do the same. Kober 15:11, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I do realize the importance of the autonomy. What you cannot understand is that Wikipedia is not a place for religous or political propaganda. Adjara is an autonomous part of Georgia and has its own flag and statistics you've removed without any explanation. If you really are from Adjara, you obviously read Georgian and can easily check my info. Also you violated the 3RR rule and may be blocked from editing. Kober 16:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Macahel, please go and read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. You've also violated the 3 revert rule, so I've blocked you for 24 hours. Please don't repeatedly revert edits - edit warring is not a permitted tactic on Wikipedia. -- ChrisO 21:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  As Adjarians, we adopt Islam voluntarily!  

message: Please correct me if I am wrong.
The last census conducted in Georgia was in 2002 and only estimates could be made for the two regions not controlled by the central government of Georgia (Abkhazia and South Ossetia). 2002 census included Adjaria. 
In 2002, population figures were; 
4,371,500 (Georgian controlled) + 230,000 (Abkhazia + South Ossetia) = 4,601,000 
Experts' estimates for 2005 population figures are; 
4,289,100 (Georgian controlled) + 227,000 (Abkhazia + South Ossetia) = 4,516,000 
Statistical Yearbook of Georgia, 2005: Population 
The figure given by Adjarastat for the total population of Georgia proper is 4,371,535 which corresponds to the 2002 census. Therefore, it is wrong to state that 376,016 is the 2005 population of Adjaria. It is the 2002 population. Otherwise, why choose the 2002 population for the whole of Georgia? Experts' estimates for 2005 would have been chosen instead. Indeed, for a further example, 121,800 is the 2002 population given for the city of Batumi by the Georgian central agency of statistics, which is also taken over by Adjarastat. But they are and they remain the 2002 figures. Which should be indicated in this article. 
Secondly, 2002 census did register ethnicity, but not religion. And in ethnicity terms, all Adjarians were counted as Georgians. One can easily draw a conclusion between the number for the, for example, ethnic Azerbaijani population in Georgia and the corresponding number of Muslims. But Adjarian Muslims have not been put into figures on the basis of an actual count. They are estimates. Could anyone confirm this? 
--Cretanforever 16:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, you're obviously right. Thanks for calling it to my attention. I'll make proper corrections in the article. Kober 17:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Please don't make personal attacks. Comment on content (i.e. this article), not the contributor. Thank you. —Khoikhoi 21:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, I have no reason to be biased because I respect all religions practiced in Georgia and have Muslim friends among Georgians and Azeris living in my country. Secondly, the governmental statistics appear to be more accurate than BBC as I’ve never heard of any research on religious composition of Adjara conducted by BBC. So, please (whoever made the above comment on my POV) cite more reliable sources if you have any. The reconversion to Christianity began in 1989 , and is still underway. I personally know a Georgian Orthodox priest from Keda, Adjara, who was born and raised in the family of a hoja. Again, I have nothing against religious minorities and strongly support religious freedom in Georgia and elsewhere in the world. --Kober 05:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Population

message: A quoatation from www.geotimes.ge/forum:
I HAVE ENOUGH INFO ABOUT THE OBLIGATIONS APPLIED ON MUSLIM GEORGIANS TO
CHANGE THEIR RELIGION. IMEDI AND RUSTAVI-2 TV STATIONS SHOWED THE
CEREMONIES OF CHRISTIANIZATION OF MUSLIM GEORGIANS IN ACH'ARA (MACHAKHELA
GORGE). MR: ZURAB ZHVANIA JOINED THE LAST CEREMONY IN MACHAKHELA. I
REMEMBER THAT HIS MOTHER IS ARMENIAN. THE ONLIEST CAUSE OF AUTONOMY OF
ACH'ARA IS ITS RELIGIONAL DIFFERENCE. I DO NOT WANT ACH'ARA TO BE
SEPERATED FROM GEORGIA BUT OUR CHRISTIAN SIBLINGS MUST RESPECT TO THEIR
MUSLIM GEORGIAN SIBLINGS' BELIEVES. ALSO INTERESTING SCENES RECORDED BY
TRT (TURKEY'S OFFICIAL TV STATION) FOR ITS PROGRAM 'SINIRLAR ARASINDA'
(meaning: beyond the boundaries). THE CRISTIANIZATION CAMPAIGN IN GEORGIA
ON MUSLIM GEORGIANS BOTH IN ACH'ARA AND SAINGILO PUTS US INTO VERY HARD
POSITION IN TURKEY'S PUBLIC VIEW. DO NOT THINK THAT MUSLIM GEORGIANS IN
TURKEY ARE IN FULL RELIGIONAL COMFORT, BUT IF MUSLIM GEORGIANS CAN NOT BE
IN COMFORT IN THEIR MOTHERLAND, WHERE SHALL THEY FEEL THEMSELVES IN FULL
COMFORT ON THIS PLANET? WE ALWAYS IMAGINED GEORGIA AS OUR LEGENDARY
MOTHERLAND IN WHICH OUR BEAUTIFUL HEARTED SIBLINGS LIVE UNDER SOVIET
PRESSURE FOR MANY YEARS. ARE NOT OUR ETHNIC-CULTURAL TRADITIONS OUR COMMON
VALUES WHATEVER OUR BELIEVES? WE HAVE ENOUGH INFO INCLUDING SCENES FROM
IMEDI, RUSTAVI-2 AND GEOTVR STATIONS ABOUT CHRISTIANIZATION CEREMONIES IN
ACH'ARA. ALSO, WE KNOW THAT SOME INTERESTING POWERS PAY MONEY TO PEOPLE
TO CHANGE THEIR RELIGION AND NAMES. AND, THEY TELL THAT THEY CAN FIND JOBS
FOR THOSE CHANGING THEIR RELIGION. THESE POWERS BLAME MUSLIM GEORGIANS IN
ACH'ARA WITH BEING TURK, TATRI, TURKEY'S SPY, ETC. UNLESS THEY CHANGE
THEIR RELIGION... I WANT TO EXPLAIN THAT OTTOMANS OR TURKS DID NOT MAKE
GEORGIANS IN SOUTHWESTERN GEORGIA MUSLIM BY FORCING OR OTHER WILD WAYS;
GEORGIANS IN THOSE REGIONS ACCEPTED ISLAM BY THEIR HEARTS... THEY HAVE
NEVER ACCEPTED ENEMINESS TO THEIR ETHNIC SIBLINGS... I ALSO WISH TO
KNOW; WHY A PREST SCHOOL HAS BEEN OPENED IN KHULO WHERE THE POPULATION IS
COMPLETELY MUSLIM? WHO WILL GO TO THIS SCHOOL? GEORGIAN CHILDREN FROM
TBILISI? AND, WHY ARE THERE CHRISTIANITY LECTURES IN THE SCHOOLS IN
ACH'ARA GIVEN BY GEORGIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH MEMBERS? HAVE YOU EVER SEEN
THAT ANY MUSLIM GEORGIAN ENFORCING THEIR CHRISTIAN GEORGIAN SIBLINGS TO
CONVERT TO ISLAM? WHY IS IT FORBIDDEN TO CALL ADHAN (PRAYER'S CALL) IN
BATUMI MOSQUE? WOULD IT BE NICE TO STOP THE CLING-CLANG VOICES IN
CHURCHES? AND IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND THE CHANGING THE FLAG
OF GEORGIA? DOES GEORGIA REFUSE ITS REPUBLICAN EXPERIENCE? IS MONARCHY OR
THEOCRACY BETTER THAN DEMOCRACY? BY CHANGING ITS REPUBLICAN FLAG WITH
KINGDOM'S FLAG... DO NOT YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR MUSLIM GEORGIAN SIBLINGS
IN TURKEY, SAINGILO AND IRAN? DOES GEORGIA BELONGS TO ONLY CHRISTIAN
GEORGIANS? HOW WILL YOU DEVELOP YOUR RELATIONS WITH MUSLIM CHECHEN NATION
AGAINST RUSSIAN IMPERIALISM ON CAUCASIA? IS IT RIGHT THAT ARMENIANS ARE
THE UNSEPERABLE SIBLINGS OF GEORGIANS BECAUSE OF THEIR RELIGION? DO THEY
SEE YOU AS THEIR CHRISTIAN SIBLINGS? SO THAT THEY IMAGINE TO OCCUPY
JAVAKHETI AND SOUTHERN GEORGIA FOR ARMENIA LIKE QARABAGH? IS ORTHODOX
RUSSIA ALLY OF GEORGIA? WHY DO WESTERN CHURCHES (PROTESTANT, CATHOLIC,
ETC.) FROM EUROPE AND USA GIVE NICE MESSAGES FOR GEORGIA? IS IT BEACUE OF
GEORGIAN'S BEAUTIFUL FOLK DANCES OR CUISINE? OF COURSE NO! THEIR AIM IS TO
CONVERT GEORGIAN NATION TO THEIR OWN PERSONAL 'CHRISTIANITIES' LIKE
PROTESTANT, CATHOLIC, EVANGELIST, PRESBYTARIAN, BAPTIST, ETC... IN FACT
THEY DO NOT LIKE AND HAVE NO TOLERANCE ON GEORGIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH... THEY
WISH TO MAKE IT A SATELLITE OF THEIR COMPLETELY PERSONAL CHRISTIANITIES...
THEY DO NOT CARE ABOUT GEORGIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH'S ANCIENT HISTORY. THEY
JUST CARE ABOUT 'HOW CAN WE MAKE THOSE PEOPLE OUR SLAVES?' SLAVES OF OUR
CAPITALISM, OF OUR CHURCH COMPANIES... WE CAN SEND NEEDED THE PROOFS TO
THOSE REQUIRE... JUST MAIL!--Macahel 11:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edits reflect a biased POV. So far you've failed to provide any valuable sources. The officials' participation in Christian religous ceremonies doesn't mean the Muslims are under pressure. I've changed your phrase into more neutral one, and please don't revert it again. Kober 11:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pressures on Muslim Ajars 

message: Macahel, the flag was adopted by the Supreme Council of Adjara democratically elected by the region's population in 2004. What do you mean by "illegal and unlawful"? I'm also interested if you have citizenship of Georgia. If not, then why have you decided that you have a right to judge its status? Take care to answer.--Kober 14:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Macahel, please read my question more carefully. I'm not asking about your religion, but about your citizenship. I'm not Muslim. But does this mean that I should have no interest in Adjara? --Kober 16:52, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

text: As you guess, I'm not citizen of Georgia. I have Turkish citizenship and I'm Ajarian(as a historical meaning) and Muslim Georgian as ethnic. But you are not Ajarian and not Muslim Georgian. My question is also very simple: "where does your interested in Adjara come from?"--Macahel 15:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand your point, Macahel. Adjara is part of Georgia, which is my native country and it is not surprising that I'm interested in it. Do you really think that only Muslims have right to take interest in Adjara?--Kober 15:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Listen Macahel. I'm getting weird your accusations. You're not the right person to decide whether this flag violates the Adjarian autonomy or not. There are many thousands of people of Georgian background around the world, but I don't think that all of them have right to interfere in what is defined by the law of Georgia and its subnational enitity. I'm ready to discuss with you any issues related to Adjara, but the removal of the flag is unjustifiable.--Kober 16:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Guy, the Treaty of Kars doesn't establish the design of the flag. Wiki is not a "governmental encyclopedia", but neither is a place for religious or political propaganda. So far, you've failed to provide any credible sources supproting your ridiculous claims and accusations. --Kober 17:47, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current Flag violates the autonomy of Ajaristan 

message: Adjara was never called as Acaristan or Adzharistan under the Ottoman Empire. This information is not true. Adjara was called as Acara under the Ottoman Empire, but it was divided two sandjaks:  “Acara-yı Ulya” (it means Upper Adjara) and Acara-yı Sufla (it means Lower Adjara). --SidE 15:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your info, SidE. What about to join our forces to make this article better?--Kober 15:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

text: No, I blocked you because you violated the 3 revert rule. If Kober or Khoikhoi had violated it, I would have blocked them too. I suggest that all sides in this argument should calm down and try to work out differences on this talk page, rather than just fighting over the article. -- ChrisO 16:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Im sorry but islamization of some Ajarians and Lazs by force is a historic fact. Ottoman savagery towards Armenian and Georgian Christians has been well documented and known throughout various sources and documents (by both western and armeno-georgian scholars). Almost all of the churches in former Georgian territory of Tao-Klarjeti has been destroyed by Turks. Georgian bible was banned in Artvin (former Artvini) and all Christian ceremonies where also banned in all Georgian and Armenian churches. Some of the Tao churches have been converted into the garbage dumps by the Turks. These are just very few examples of non tolerance towards Christians. Ottoman plunder and genocidal warfare against Christian Georgians can not even be disputed as it is a solid historic fact as Holocaust was. Turks forced Ajarians and Lazs to make a choice: adopt Islam or perish. Armenians had similar choice, and we all know what happened. To deny as such, is a sure POV.Noxchi Borz 16:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  this user can not be considered serious judging from above massage, its simply provocation of facts. I have seen similar pan-turkist nationalist rhetoric many times before (similar to Arab denial for terror of Coptic minority in Egypt). I suggest to keep the term "forced" beside islamization. There are tons of sources to support the claim; finally it’s a simple historic fact. All the best. Noxchi Borz 20:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Noxchi. Macahel's position is intractable. He proved to be a tireless edit warrior and POV-pusher. He permanently attacks this page and removes the flag of Adjara because it has Christian crosses. I'd suggest not wasting your time and energy in a fruitless discussion with him.--Kober 04:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes Sir, I completely agree, jigar khar. :) hehe "Ajaristan," "Saakashvil," "Ajar," i love when they cut of georgian words. You must be Koberidz from Georgi and im Dingl from Canad :) Noxchi Borz 13:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Interfax Agency announced (20 July 2004, 22:20) that the Supreme Council (Parliament) of the Ajarian Autonomous Republic (Georgia) at the first session on Tuesday on 20 July 2004 had ratified a new flag of the autonomous republic. The flag has seven dark blue and white stripes, and in the upper corner the national flag of Georgia with the five red crosses. The dark blue strips symbolize the sea whereas the white stripes symbolize purity. 
Macahel's assertion that the flag "violates Adjara's autonomy" is completely irrelevant to the article - that's his personal point of view and prohibited from inclusion per Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Reliable sources, two of our most fundamental editing policies.
As for Macahel's other "contribution" to the debate, he appears to be having an edit war over on the Turkish Wikipedia as well. There are now two separate (forked) articles at tr:Acara and tr:Acaristan. Obviously this is beyond my ability to resolve but I think we need to settle on which version we link to. I would guess that the Acara article (with flag) is more likely to be accurate than the "Acaristan" article (without flag), which Macahel appears to have mutilated. I note that Macahel hasn't provided any evidence that it's still called "Acaristan" by anyone. -- ChrisO 20:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *The Macahel is writing very different opinions in English Wiki and Turkish Wiki. Belong to Macahels opinion Adjara is not a part of Georgia, that’s why he wrote second article (tr:Acaristan) in Turkish Wiki and never put categories in this article. Than, he had to must put a category in this article, but this category (Özerk cumhuriyetler) is only the category of Acaristan, because there is not this kind of category in Turkish Wiki. Macahel should answer this question first of all: Who are Adjarians? We see, is this answer a same answer in both Turkish and English wikies, or not? And maybe he says, when he was blocked in English Wiki, what he wrote about Kober in Turkish Wiki? Macahel couldn’t understand this, Wiki is only an encyclopedia, not a political or religion magazines, or website. --SidE 20:18, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *That is not an answer. --SidE 12:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * SidE or WikiPedia (nickname in Turkish version?), my opinions related this subject are not different, there is no contradiction.. There is no sentence in the article of "Acaristan" that says, Ajaristan is not a part of Georgia and I have never said that as an opinion. Categorization is not obligatory. Yet Acaristan has a an appropriate category. As you know there are many autonomous republics. Who are Adjarians or who are Ajars? The answer is very simple: the people of Adjara or Ajaristan! And maybe you might look at Kober's user page, what he wrote about me in Georgian! The only true sentence in your message is the last sentence that firstly you should consider!--Macahel 13:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Macahel, OK. We, me and you, may talk in Georgian, why not. I see, you know Georgian language very well and you teach everyone Georgian grammar. Axla bicho, saidan davickot, jobia rom shen airchio. Koberi aris chemi tanamemamule, da siamovnebit vesaubrebi chem mshobliur enit. Amitom, mikvars chemi dedaena. Da shen da me, saidan davickot martla ar vici. Rom dacini kartul enas da amob rom kartul enas kartulad kvia Gurcice, tu gind akidan davickot. Anu, ertjer acaris statiashi turkuli droshac rom sheitane, ikneb ikidan davickot. Ra vici axla, calian bevri aris aseti sasaubro tema. Tu ginda religiaze visaubrot, mec maxmadianur ojaxshi gazdrili bichi var. Magram, modi kacurad, vazhkacurad vilaparakot, ase nu veparebit ertmanet, nu vambobt tkuilebs. Xom gesmis chemi, modi gamomexmiane da gavagrdzelot saubari. Aba gelodebi. Salami.--SidE 16:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * SidE, firstly you might write in Ajar dialect. I understand what you wrote, but I prefer to talk with our dialect as Ajars. Tu aWareli xar, aWarlebi vart, aWaruli, Cveneburi na ilapariko, vilaparikoTna.. Es sircxvili arali. qarTvelef Tu undebian gagneba deiswavlon aWaruli, Sen rom digiwavlia mati dialekti ise..--Macahel 21:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *Kai, gevgen. Modi mashin ase vknat, turkuli artvinis dialektit (xom ici chveneburshi es sitkva, dialekti ar aris, ratum ixmare) davcerot shen da me turkçe vikipediashi. Trapizonelebma chven rom vebnevit imit dazernon, lazca, karadeniz ağzi. trakyelebmac mati enit. raper chans, ra lamazi ikneba, ise ara? shen is turkuli, rom vikipediashi cer, is turkuli had daiscavle, sopelshi.? Kai bichi xar, ama sopelis ena gonia rom dacervis enaa. Ar aris bicho ase. mec visi ar aris sircxvili, sopelshi chveneburay laparakobt. Chveneburebi rom vamobt acarlebi, çürüksulebi, macahlelebi, shenc ici rom es is arari, Ajars, Acarlar... Chven chveneburebi vart, dogri gitkmia, kipçağebi ar vart. ise ara?--SidE 07:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *You are right, I'm sorry.--SidE 19:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:   Noxchi Borz 00:19, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Adzharistan or Acaristan

message: In doing housecleaning on the citecheck template I found this page.  Citecheck is intended for articles that misrepresent citations, such as using a quote out of context.  Please discuss specific reasons for the template on the talk page, or go to Wikipedia:Cleanup resources if some other template would be more appropriate.  Durova 02:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's been no explanation for the template in six weeks since my prior request.  Removing template. Durova 21:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citecheck template 

message: Do forgive me all for not knowing such things, but I have just noticed the ethnic structure of Adjara as it is on the infobox. Can someone tell me, was Adjaran ever used as an ethnicity/natioanlity? Or did the majority always identify as Georgian? Evlekis 17:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They always identified themselves to the Georgian nation as they always have been. The boundaries were drawn due to religious conviction; otherwise there are no differences between them and Gurians (another Georgian sub-group living near by). Best regards. Ldingley 18:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Quotation from article:"The Georgian population of Adjara had been generally known as "Muslim Georgians" until the 1926 Soviet census which listed them as "Ajars" and counted 71,000 of them. Later, they were simply classified under a broader category of Georgians as no official Soviet census asked about religion". It is clear that Ajars are separate ethnic group as they always have been! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Macahel (talk • contribs) 16:58, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ethnic Group enquiry