Talk:L. Ron Hubbard/Archive 5

message: Just to inject a bit of context here. Hubbard was talking about animism; the concept that there is a spiritual nature to what we in the west (yes, us "whites") call "inanimate objects". African ("brown"), American Indian ("red", though LRH does not mention them), and Asian ("yellow") races often hold beliefs that are animistic; e.g. Shinto or shamanism ("It could be said that shamans are the experts employed by animists or animist communities.") It was Ron's belief that the brown and yellow therefore take a different view of human life than the whites. He does not say that because of their race, he says it because of their beliefs. Not race. Beliefs. If you read the quote, you see that he considers the brown and yellow races "saner" than the white. So if he was a racist then I guess he was anti-white?? Now for my opinion. Do you know how much of our current GNP goes to "health care"; i.e. prolonging life. I can see a future where all activity is directed at health care to support overpriced drugs and treatments to prolong life with all wealth concentrated in drug companies, "health care" providers, and insurance companies (wait, I think we are almost there already.) Why does our society have to spend so much on prolonging life? Two reasons, IMO. 1) The current trend toward materialism and atheism attach inordinate importance to eking out another day of life and 2) "whites" believe that they exist in a bubble disconnected from the inanimate universe, animals and plants, and even other races of man. The latter point is what LRH was addressing. So rather than talk about what he was addressing, we want to ignore that and nanny nanny boo boo, he did not use PC terminology in a pre-PC age. And why do we do that? Because, as another said - "The incorrect and counterproductive consideration that seems to pervade the community is this: Scientology is not a subject - it is instead controversy about a pseudo subject." --Justanother 18:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I should clarify that LRH was not "talking about animism", he was talking about Scientology; have-waste, scarcity-abundance, attention; Scientology stuff as in the subject of Scientology as opposed to the invented "controversies" about Scientology. But the spiritual beliefs of the non-white races that he is referring to fall under what we might term animism. --Justanother 20:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't confuse Scientology Technology with earlier practices, eh.... COFS 20:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: LRH was relating the animistic beliefs of the non-white races to Scientology theory. Rather than try to talk about Scientology theory our nanny nanny boo boo critics want to invent a controversy called "Ron the Racist". The non-whites were not practicing Scientology; they were practicing animism. --Justanother 20:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Right. The book article is titled "Identity and Attention". Antaeus tries to make it look like it would be about "Races and Politics" or similar. But reading the article again I am not wondering anymore. Let's apply this to the Wiki IDs here: "One 'needs' an identity to play the game, as covered later, but mainly to 'get attention'." Does that explain why he interferes in other people's conversation? CSI LA 21:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Need for game, I get it. No "private" life. That's sad. COFS 21:11, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Personal attacks are unneeded, uncalled for, reflect badly on all, can get you blocked, and will minimize your effectiveness here. My suggestion; add as much material as you remove and (based on my own errors) don't get personal, don't get angry. --Justanother 21:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By add as much material as you remove I do not mean necessarily in the Scn articles although that is fine and there is lots that can be added. I mean edit also in other, non-controversial areas. --Justanother 21:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text:  Thanks, got it. You must have gone through something here. COFS 21:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool. I would respond with "I could write a book" but I think that I already have - it is just spread all over wikipedia. Perhaps I will gather it up. --Justanother 21:26, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah, I've seen that. I started on the Scn article and FZ (could not resist). COFS 23:59, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It seems to me that sensible people of good will could disagree on whether Hubbard's writing was racist or not.  For my money, claiming that yellow and brown men do not understand concern over a few million dead is pretty blatantly insulting, but I can believe that others don't interpret this in a racist manner.  Seems to me that we should accept the following compromise: if there is a reliable source that cites this passage as evidence of racism, we may include the passage and the evaluation (and any relevant rejoinders).  By including the quotation and also perhaps noting that it was rewritten later (after Hubbard's death?), the reader may draw his own conclusions.  If there is no source that discusses this quote with regards to racism, then this passage does not belong in a discussion of alleged racism in Hubbard's work, since including it would require original interpretation, i.e., OR.  Phiwum 16:23, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sounds feasible. But you got one thing very wrong (sorry), there is no approval of a "few million dead" anywhere in this quote nor in its meaning. This is an ill-intended interpretation of something completely different, namely the varying viewpoints on life in Africa (metaphorically indicated as "brown"), Asia ("yellow") and the Western World ("white"). In a culture beliefing that there will be another life of many after one's death, dying is seen less important than in a culture which teaches that there is only one life. There is not much indication how Hubbard validates or invalidates such beliefs. But he says (and this is part of the quote): "Thus the yellow and brown races are not very progressive, but, by and large, saner.". "Saner" in a Scientology context is always a plus and to be supported. Now, the whole argument here is whether "race" is used interchangeably for culture/tradition etc. This text was written in 1954, long before Martin Luther King and globalization and the use of "race" as a word had not evolved into having political connotations to it. Wikipedia provides some definitions for "race" which consider the fact that the word also has a meaning of "traditional group, social group, geographical group" etc.. I like your proposal though. Knowing Hubbard and Scientology for a while I heavily doubt that there is such WP:RS on "racism" though. COFS 17:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  My interpretation of the quote is largely irrelevant to what I suggested, so I will not bother replying to the "few million dead" part.  Let us stick to the bits relevant to the article.  For my part, sorry that I included any discussion of whether I found the passage racist or not, since my opinion doesn't matter. As far as your comment about Hubbard and racism, let us see what other editors suggest as relevant sources. Phiwum 18:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brown and yellow 

message: (Among occultists today, it is widely accepted that Hubbard derived a large part of 'Dianetics' from Golden Dawn occult ideas such as the Holy Guardian Angel.[citation needed])Here is the only citation needed tag I found in the article. Can this be cited? Does anyone know where to find a citation for this?? Anynobody 10:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You might have to take a poll of occultists. :-)  Steve Dufour 12:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Thank you. I think it's likely true or close to true, but without a source, it doesn't belong there. By "close to true", I suspect that Ordo Templi Orientis rather than the Golden Dawn is more likely as an influence; Jack Parsons was OTO, not GD. --FOo 02:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I didn't realize he was telling people that "Navy Intelligence" sent him to break up the group, I must say I found that claim hilarious. What I found so funny was not his claim to Naval Intelligence , but that his claim that the ONI gives a crap about cults: "Join the Navy, see the world, learn new things, and battle cults!" At that time they would have been busy trying to learn as much as possible about the Soviet fleet. Anynobody 02:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

text: He knew Jack Parsons before the war. I doubt Parsons' occult interests were that secret and if the navy cared that much, they could have gotten his security clearances pulled. AndroidCat 03:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

text: You might want to try the marvellously-titled "Sex and Rockets: The Occult World of Jack Parsons" by John Carter and Robert Anton Wilson. It's been a while since I read it, but I recall it has a fairly detailed account of Hubbard's involvement with Parsons. -- ChrisO 07:41, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

text: My source certainly can't be cited since it's fiction (Rocket to the Morgue, Anthony Boucher, 1942), but Hubbard, Parsons, Heinlein and a host of other writers and members of the Mañana Literary Society are used as characters in the book, with many in-jokes. It is possible that Boucher (pen name) knew both Hubbard and Parsons, and they hadn't bumped into each other yet, but I doubt it. The book is an otherwise excellent snapshot of that circle and pulp writing at the time. If there are any non-fiction accounts of the Mañana Literary Society and the LA writer/fan scene at the time, there might be some confirmation. If, *sigh*. AndroidCat 14:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Jon Atack says pretty specifically (p. 90 of Blue Sky) that "Hubbard met Jack Parsons while on convalescent leave in Los Angeles, in August 1945". What previous opportunities might they have had to meet? If I remember rightly, most of Hubbard's on-shore time was spent in Massachusetts, Florida and Oregon. Hubbard was certainly involved to some extent in the pre-war LA writers' scene, though most of his focus was on his publishers in NY, but that would surely have been too early for Parsons to have come into the frame. -- ChrisO 23:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can this be cited? 

message: Last night 00:07, Misou added this, starting with "(→Legal difficulties and life on the high seas - found first one (hooray to online databases))":
In 1978, as part of a case against three French Scientologists Hubbard was convicted for "making fraudulent promises" and sentenced to four years in jail and a 35,000₣ fine by a French court. Hubbard - who had not been defended in the trial at all and had not been in the country during the whole time - refused to serve his jail time or pay his fine. The case was appealed later - in 1980 - with all fraud charges being dropped.Sunday Star (Toronto), 2 March 1980: "Scientology gets nod from court. Paris (Reuter) - The Paris Appeal Court has recognized the U.S.-based Church of Scientology as a religion and cleared a former leader of its French branch of fraud.". Also in International Herald Tribune, 3 March 1980
The problem is that the only leader of the French branch whose conviction was discharged 1980-02-29 was Georges Andreu, not Hubbard. The other three convictions, including Hubbard's, were confirmed. (Andreu's conviction was discharged mainly due to his being 22 when named president of Scientology in France and merely a subordinate.) The claim that the "Paris Appeal Court has recognized the U.S.-based Church of Scientology as a religion" also seems very doubtful, but I haven't dug into that yet.
The mention of an online database (certainly not the Toronto Star's, which only goes back to 1985) and at least one error of fact make me question this reference. AndroidCat 15:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From ProQuest database, The Globe and Mail, March 1st, 1980, "Scientology called religion by Paris court": "The Paris Appeal Court yesterday recognized the Church of Scientology as a religion because it embraces both a faith and a community and cleared a former leader of the movement of fraud. Georges Andreu, formerly president of the sect in France, and three other leaders of the church, including its U. S. founder Ron Hubbard, received fines and suspended prison sentences a year ago after the movement was accused of enticing people to join by making fraudulent promises. Mr Andreu was the only one of the four to appeal." Hubbard didn't appeal, thus he wasn't cleared. Raymond Hill 16:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good to know that you have access to the real stuff. I'll keep that in mind 'cause I plan to verify each line of this smear piece called article and might need your help. Could you find the one on the retrial of the case in 1981? When the other was acquitted? Misou 21:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whereas you're making edits and ref'ing them without the "real stuff"? The part about him being cleared on fraud will have to go until someone can find a valid reference for it. AndroidCat 00:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which is not going to you, I guess, as you are not looking for that side of the story, right? Misou 01:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please try to be WP:CIVIL. AndroidCat 01:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, please, assume good faith. Raymond Hill 03:06, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with French conviction "dropped" cite 

message: Another ref problem with Hubbard's mother's name Ledora/Dora: "Biography issued 7 April 1977 by Liz Gablehouse". How can anyone verify that rather sparse entry? Since she was a Sea Org member, I assume that this was issued by CoS. Was it actually published in any real sense? As well, although this is a minor detail, CoS's accounts of Hubbard's life haven't been terrible accurate. Bare Faced Messiah uses Ledora. AndroidCat 01:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Another problem with your research capabilities. Good ol' Lerma has it sitting on his site. But don't cry, I'll get a scanner soon. Misou 02:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem with Mother Hubbard 

message: Justanother, would you  please explain why the links you propose removing violate the guideline Wikipedia:External links? Anynobody 03:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:External links]] on page 

message: I returned the CoS links to the page. They may be full of it, but that's still their position. Not having them makes the section very POV. Anynobody 00:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links