Talk:Princess Désirée, Baroness Silfverschiöld

message: The articles of the three children are all stubs.  As there are approximately 5,000 Swedish Barons, it's not really a mark of distinction sufficient to warrant articles of their own, but with their place in the in British line of succession and proximity to the Swedish throne, redirects for them to a summary article are approriate, and this is the appropriate article to put a summary in my opinion. Caerwine 23:01, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge from Children

message: It seems SO trivial where the wedding reception of a minor Swedish nobleman was held. This information is not even on the Swedish Wikipedia. 
Abercrombieclub (talk) 02:13, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Too much information

message: It might be interesting to note here that Désirée actually is the only living Swedish baroness whose title of baroness is still officially sanctioned by the Swedish government, through the office of the head state, every time her title is mentioned by that office. Otherwise, nobility has not existed legally in Sweden since 2003, and the government no longer recognizes anybody else's title. Her husband's title, thus, was officially cancelled with everyone else's when the nobility was discontinued, and the King does not have the power to reverse that, only the power to repeat and reconfirm the title which his office granted his sister especially. I've never seen anything in print on this yet, which might be able to be used as a source to add the item to the article. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:44, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The status of the nobility of Sweden has been discussed on the Swedish Wikipedia . The decision taken in 2003 does not mean that the nobility is abolished but that its standing in public law is abolished (see 2002/03:KU28) which was done by repealing the 1723 Charter of Privileges to the Nobility () and by removing the House of Knights Statutes (Swedish: Riddarhusordning) from the Swedish Code of Statutes. Noble families retain their coat of arms, surnames and titles, however these are not explicitly protected by law. Hence Niclas Silfverschiöld is still a free lord (baron). To abolish the nobility would probably have required legislation revoking patents of nobility issued since mediæval times. The King has the power to grant titles (which are not considered titles of nobility, e.g. ducal titles) to members of his own family. The Court Almanack () of Sweden can be used as a source for Princess Désirée holding the title, it states that she: "Bär titeln Prinsessan Désirée, Friherrinna Silfverschiöld" (). In the 2014 edition this information can probably be found on page four. Björn Knutson (talk) 23:33, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Mr Knutsson! What I meant, though I could have been clearer, is that nobility in Sweden now is strictly a matter of private organization, just like any other private organization, the titles of which can be respected by other people or can be ignored, which would include letters patent, which need not be considered anything different from any other obsolete legal papers. There is no longer any contract whatsoever between the Swedish government and the nobility to legitimize such letters and titles as valid today. The legal governmental organization whose members were granted titles and letters is not the same as the private organization which since 2003 keeps track of them, sort of like a game, today. Neither the nobilty nor the titles have any legal basis or official standing anymore, as they did before, so nobody needs to acknowledge them at all, but can use the titles as a courtesy by choice. The only exception, in my opinion, is Désirée's title which was assigned especially by the head of state and continues to be an official, legal title as long as that office still continues to confirm that it is. One could argue that her title, too, is no longer formally one of Swedish nobility, yet legally official anyway through that office. Even her husband's noble title can only be recognized as a courtesy in any usage of it, in my opinion. The fact is that there no longer actually are any Swedish barons, counts or lords and ladies of the nobility, though it is common courtesy to call them that. Sort of like the Mr Carter and those two Bush guys no longer being presidents or holding any such titles by law, but still being called President because many people think it's nice to do so. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 02:22, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the House of Knights is now a private organization, however as far as I am aware no court has ruled that patents of nobility are obsolete which would mean that there are still valid documents issued under the Great Seal of the Realm  conferring noble dignities, surnames and coats of arms on families. Also, I do not dispute that Princess Désirée's title is a title of royalty that has legal basis. Björn Knutson (talk) 09:42, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not dispute surnames or coats of arms, only the legality of the titles, and in my opinion, if any such contract had wording which specifically stated that the Swedish State granted a title to be held and inherited forever - i evarderlig tid - or the like, that title would still be legally valid. Do you know if such was a common wording? If not, the organization through which the titles were legitimate, as part of government, ceased to exist in 2003, and I think the legal validity of the titles did too. I'm surprised that Swedish media didn't work all this out for us 11 years ago so we know what's right. Or did they? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:19, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Only sanctioned baroness

message: Pls see & discuss here! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:29, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Dame?

message: Her surname since 1964 is Silfverschiöld & we use surnames for non-royals. Her courtesy title of "princess" is undefined, except that it has been specifically stated that she is not a royal princess. I did some work on this article, correcting some typos and bringing it into line in accordance with normal WP policy for bios on non-royals, only to be very quickly revoked by someone who seems not to even have looked at all the constructive work I had done. Reverting. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:39, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I apologise for the quick revert, there was constructive work. However, what do you mean by saying that she is not a "royal" princess? And can you point to a source for it? She has been a princess all her life since she was born as a daughter to an heir to the throne, and that title has not been revoked. She is not (and have never been) in the line of succession because of Agnatic primogeniture being the principle followed when she was born. She and her sisters Margaretha and Christina (this discussion applies to them as well) still perform some royal funtions from time to time, and they are then always referred to by their royal titles. They do use their surnames when acting in non-royal activites, but their main source of prominence are their membership in the royal family. --Marbe166 (talk) 18:02, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  You need to do a bit of objective research on this. When you do you will find that three of the king's sisters are no longer royalty since they were married. All royal princesses are called HRH (HKH Hennes Kunglig Höghet) which these three ladies specifically are not. The Swedish government has never used HRH for them since their weddings and it is wrong to do so. That was removed then in all 3 cases. Unlike royalty, they never (never) officially represent Sweden in any capacity at any time or function but are invited to attend certain functions in an unofficial capacity, and of course family gatherings. People who have and use surnames are named by them in WP articles. That's standard procedure. The Swedish government specifically stated that these 3 ladies are to have and use surnames, unlike the people in the actual Royal family of Sweden#Royal House. Princess in this case is some sort of a courtesy title but, I repeat, it is not a royal title. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:37, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  There certainly was a change in Désirée's status after she married, as she went from H.R.H. Princess Désirée of Sweden to simply Princess Désirée, but what source states that she is not royal? According to the court's website she is a member of the Swedish Royal Family, and she does perform official functions on behalf of the King. Here for example where she receives the Japanese Emperor. /Elzo 90 (talk) 16:42, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  She did not go to simply Princess Désirée she went to Princess Désirée, Baroness Silfvershciöld which is what the govt decreed she is to be called. That has not changed, no matter whom she greets at Arlanda. Name one single royal princess who is not a Royal Highness - and then try explain how that can be, please! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:54, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

text:  PS - so according to your interpretation of Kungliga familjen at the Court's website, Marianne Bernadotte is also royal? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:57, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Not royal since 1964

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