Template talk:Lead too short

message: Please change the first sentence FROM 
: This article's lead section does not adequately summarize key points of its contents.
TO
: This article's lead section is much shorter than what is recommended for an article of this length.
See talk page discussion. Regards, CapnZapp (talk) 08:44, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Would it ready better without the "what"? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:58, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: ALT2 "This article's lead section is much shorter than appropriate given its length." Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 10:09, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Whatever you feel is best, User:MSGJ. Just as long as everybody understands that we're in the process of implementing an edit request. So please don't complicate things that might delay the implementation - let the edit be made first, and then y'all are free to suggest and discuss further improvements. Thank you. CapnZapp (talk) 10:14, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

text: Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the  template. All of these proposed alternatives have grammatical problems or ambiguity that make them inferior to the current version.  – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:20, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Jonesey95, I started this discussion six days ago. Noone objected. That is what "please establish consensus" means. Besides, if you feel there are "grammatical problems or ambiguity" why did you not say so before the edit request was started? With respect, it is inappropriate if edit requests are treated as the start of discussions rather than the end of them. CapnZapp (talk) 14:05, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This page has fewer than 30 watchers, so it makes sense that nobody would comment. I watch for edit requests, and as a template editor, I am responsible for my edits. I don't just blindly implement all requests; I check to ensure that they make sense to me. As a foolish example, if your edit request had said "I proposed changing the content of this template to 'I like fluffy bunnies', and nobody objected.", I would have suggested further discussion. I have no objections to improving the wording of this template, just to the specific wording that was proposed. See below. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:43, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

text: I think that it might be worth discussing whether to merge this template, , and . They all basically say the same thing. I wonder if there is text that could cover all of these situations. [Edited to add: number of transclusions: Inadequate lead: 516, Lead rewrite: 1,400, Lead too short: 8,500.] – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:23, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  With respect, that was discussed as recently as in March:  I am asking for an edit request that assumes the template stands, and I feel it is inappropriate to gate the edit behind a new (potentially very long) TfD. I respectfully ask that the edit request is implemented first, and that you start a merging discussion only second. After all, had the template not been protected, I could have made the edit myself, and we could be having this discussion from the viewpoint of an already-edited template. Thank you. CapnZapp (talk) 14:09, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Good gracious, that TfD was a disaster from the start. I had forgotten that I had commented, probably because merging all three of the templates into one, which the majority of commenters seem to have supported, was so obvious but was rejected thoroughly by the OP, who was attached to their own very long proposal. In the end, that attachment and resistance resulted in zero action instead of even incremental improvement. There's a lesson in there somewhere. All of that said, I will create a new subsection below to propose grammatical, less ambiguous language on which we can try to reach consensus. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:43, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Now that the edit is done, Jonesey95, I've started a talk discussion that hopefully avoids the mistakes of that TfD. Cheers, CapnZapp (talk) 08:49, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template-protected edit request on 6 October 2020 

message: According to MOS:LEADSTUB, a stub article does not require a lead. Because obviously, when an article is only one or two paragraphs long, it makes no sense to add another paragraph summarising the content. However, this template is very frequently placed on stub articles.I did some research on this using PetScan, which gives me 2,015 articles contained in both :Category:All stub articles and :Category:Wikipedia introduction cleanup. This latter category tracks several templates, but taking a random sample I found that 50 of 72 articles returned by PetScan were tagged with "lead too short". Of those 50, there were only 4 that I didn't think were incorrectly tagged (1, 2, 3, 4). The remainder comprise 63.8% of the 72 sampled articles; extrapolating from that, we can estimate a total of 1,285 stubs incorrectly tagged with "lead too short", which is 13% of this template's total transclusions. Some examples of bad tags: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. It looks as though editors are adding these tags to indicate that the article should be expanded, but that's what the stub tag is for.I suggest adding the following text, in bold, to the documentation: "This template should not normally be placed on very short articles." Editors could then point to this, if necessary, as justification for removing inappropriate tags. Dan from A.P. (talk) 14:48, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur and boldly edited the doc CapnZapp (talk) 16:58, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks. I think I'll go on a bit of tag-removing spree, see if that provokes any objections. Dan from A.P. (talk) 13:36, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: @DanFromAnotherPlace and @CapnZapp, I agree with you, and I wonder if the Wikipedia:Twinkle folks could prevent the tag being added when there's already a stub tag on the page, or if it's below some reasonable threshold in length. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:45, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

text: We can't mechanically prevent people from placing it.  At most, we can take away the ability to use popular semi-automated tools for actions that are probably incorrect.  If (e.g.,) Twinkle believes you're making a mistake and refuses to post the tag, then you could still post it manually. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:30, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  Or alternatively, could prompt you to remove the stub tag. The endless potential of technology eh. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 20:25, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inappropriate tagging of stubs