Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorcycling/Archive 1

message: I'm not do sure about all the sister projects listed on the project page. Actually the related projects should really be sister projects and maybe Automobiles, Formula One, Highways and NASCAR might, at a stretch, be related projects. ww2censor 04:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They are all Transport categories. I note Formula One has some well developed pattern layouts. Knock the list on the head if you think irrelevant, not all Projects have a list of associate projects. As you think fit. Seasalt 07:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sister and related projects

message: My other blooper of the day concerns categories, but I puzzle at a system where sub category items don't appear higher up the tree. That means you have to know the associated country to find it. I noticed you had "use one category" on the project page. I think a bit more explanation or template pages (manufacturer, motorcycle, etc) might be helpful. Do you just categorise them in their lowest sub-branch? Seasalt 07:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps this page will help you decide what is appropriate. Basically it says that In straightforward cases an article should not be in both a category and its subcategory, but there are exceptions to that guideline. I have rewritten the instructions to convey the guideline better. ww2censor 04:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Organizing categories

message: Where do designers, engineers, entrepreneurs, riders, and persons of interest go? I had the thought of a motorcycling identities, or motorcycling personalities, or something, but how do you correctly categorise articles on Bert Hopwood, or Val Page, or Edward Turner, or Fabio Taglioni? Seasalt 07:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps :Category:Motorcyclists?  Though, I'm not sure about people who are related but don't ride themselves. --Pi3832 00:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Category:Motorcyclists does not seem right. Maybe we need a new category like, :Category:Motorcycle designers and engineers or :Category:Motorcycle innovators as a subcategory of :Category:Motorcycles rather then :Category:Motorcyclists. What's your opinion? Riders would of course fit directly in here :Category:Motorcyclists properly. Give some examples of entrepreneurs and persons of interest so we can see if we need another subcategory. ww2censor 04:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How about :Category:Motorcycling people or :Category:Motorcycle racing people as in :Category:Formula One people, which is a subcat of :Category:Auto racing people? It might be a bit underpopulated though. Prolog 20:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

text: As does Craig Vetter. --Pi3832 12:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We should add a link to Pierlucio "Spadino" Tinazzi, the motorcycle rider who saved 10 people from the Mont Blanc tunnel fire in 1999.  There is already a Wiki page on this true motorcycling hero (Pierlucio Tinazzi), so all we need to do is link to it.  JZH
(Done, but does not advance this topic.) :Category:Motorcycle designers and engineers and :Category:Motorcycle industry people as a subcategory of :Category:Motorcycles or similar? Seasalt 11:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Persons

message: * Henderson Motorcycle A rewrite and expansion of an existing article. Feel free to edit to ensure correct American Spelling, as I am Australian. Seasalt 01:16, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Henderson is an American motorcycle. I think it better that the spelling should be too.
I have redone Cotton (motorcycle). Seasalt 10:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments moved from project page 

message: I made some changes to the project template. All articles that are tagged to the project can now be found on :Category:WikiProject Motorcycling articles. Prolog 21:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First you have made name change without any discussion of any sort. For me that is not a good idea as I was proparing to make another template with that name for a user box, but you have precluded that thought. Being a project, I think some discussion would be better than immediate action on such things that have a wdir ranging effect wold be appreciated even if the result is the same. I wonder why you would alter the template to make self-referencing because all one has to do is click on What links here button to list all the transclusion pages. It seems like a redundant change to me. Pray tell why do that? Is there a guideline or policy for that? Cheers. ww2censor 04:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree I should've brought it up here first, so I apologize about that. However, I deemed the changes non-controversial and in consistency with other WikiProjects. I'm gonna explain my actions now, but you are of course free to revert if you disagree. Making a userbox template is a good idea, but all user templates should begin with User as in  or  (see :Category:WikiProject user templates), so I don't think  can be used for any other purpose. As for creating :Category:WikiProject Motorcycling articles, this is a standard procedure as basic Wikipedia users can not be assumed to be able to navigate to the template itself (transclusion doesn't link to it) and know how to use What links here. See :Category:WikiProject Formula One articles etc. This category can in the future be devided into assessed subcategories (Stub-, Start-, A-class etc.) (see :Category:WikiProject Football articles and more at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Guide#Project categories), if someone is up to the task. Hopefully this clears some things up and sorry again. Prolog 05:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Prolog for the explanation. It sounds like we need someone like you around this project who knows a bit more about policy and guidelines. Welcome & thanks again. ww2censor 05:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Template:Motorcycling

message: For editing style hints and information see:Wikipedia Style guidelines .Orsoni 12:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Style Guidelines

message: Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory.  This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. Also, I note that yours is a comparatively new project. You may be interested in the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Guide, which has a lot of information regarding project organization from several of the most successful WikiProjects. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you.   B2T2 18:25, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Call me thick (please do!) but i can't find this project on that list, is this guy asking us to add our project to his list or what ??? Pickle 21:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's just a directory of all the WikiProjects that exist. Motorcycling is on Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory/Culture/Sports. Prolog 21:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added it as soon as I saw this notice. ww2censor 03:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Project directory 

message: At the moment I can only find a Minibike title on Wikipedia, that doesn't cover it well.Seasalt 12:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion, minibike would be the first place people would search for information on smaller bikes as it's the word that's been used since their inception.Orsoni 01:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pocket, Super Pocket, and Pit Bikes

message: This motocross related article has been created about a circuit, not sure which of the 3 columns it should go in ??? Pickle
:Until there are enough Miscellaneous articles I would just add it at the bottom for the time being. ww2censor 05:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cheers ;) Pickle 14:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New articles

message: Only just noticed the line "Information needed on Armstrong chassis builders(CCM-Armstong & Rotax-Armstrong)", as part of raiding my dad's library for the MX history problem, i came across a book on the history of CCM by Bill Lawless (former editor of Trials and Motocross News) "Rolling Thunder", which stops in the 80's (with the takeover).  - might be of use... Pickle 15:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In 1980 CCM became part of the Armstrong Group.
"You fire up the air-cooled 349cc Rotax motor using the extremely convenient electric foot. The older 500cc Armstrong bikes have only kickstart; my smaller capacity Harley-Davidson version comes with all mods cons which is just as well -- the kicker is on the left on these machines and I've never successfully managed to use a left-footer."
"When the MT was being made by CCM-Armstrong in Bolton in the 1980s it earned the company the Queen's Award for Export, thanks to orders from Canada and Jordan among others. Armstrong beat 11 other motorcycle manufacturers to win the contract, including the Big Four Japanese boys. Production of the military bikes reached 65 motorcycles per week and the value of the orders came to over five million quid with more than 2500 bikes joining the world's military might.
When NATO also chose the MT design as its ideal two-wheeler, Harley-Davidson bought the right to produce the bikes and production moved to the US of A. Harley needed to meet American emission standards and the Federal Codes of Practice; they wanted to reduce the bike's weight and the overall manufacturing cost; they needed to add extra features like the tool box and helicopter lift capability. So for production in Pennsylvania the MT was given a thorough overhaul and general development -- and an electric start. The capacity was reduced to 350 cc." http://www.realclassic.co.uk/snarley030407.html  Seasalt 12:44, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I just bought a copy fo The Illustrated Directory of Motorcycles and see there are two pages about Armstrong. You can view the book contents at amazon.com by using the Search inside this book link just below the cover illustration you can look for Armstrong. Try this link. Cheers ww2censor 18:44, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  CCM 

message: Mondial Moto and Mondial - Seasalt 14:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Better to make a redirect and just move the Italian manufacturer infobox. Done. ww2censor 15:08, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge?

message: Are the terms Streetfighter and Naked bike essentially synonyms?  If so we should merge these two articles.  -- Brianhe 07:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't say so. I think of a streetfighter as a bike that has been modified with a different (naked) front-end (upper fairing, lights and wind sheild). A naked bike is a factory made fairing-less bike. BMan1113VR 08:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There was some discussion quite a while ago on this topic and merge suggestion on the Streetfighter talk page. Cheers ww2censor 04:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Another merge?

message: Noticing that Motorcycle was listed as request 1.20 for Wikipedia peer review, prompted thoughts on the Project peer review process, where there are not enough of us confident enough to review each other's work.(?)We are not listed as active reviewers at :Category:WikiProject peer reviews, not having an active peer review page. Is it correct to say a review only involves reading an article, and commenting on the things you notice that might be improved? What do others think. Are there enough project members willing to give Project level peer review a try? Seasalt 09:41, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would be interested in reviewing Companies and Specific models. Heck, one of my articles Suzuki TL1000R is listed as a peer review candidate. BMan1113VR 22:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I put the Motorcycle article up for peer review 3 days ago and as yet there has not been even one comment, while later candidates have been given comments. I would have thought that as the foundation for the whole topic this would attract commentary. I wonder if there are really so few people interested in motorcycling, or peer review in general that we don't spike their interest. I would have thought that at least someone experienced would have gone over it for structure and grammar to say the least. Mind you it is the holiday season, so perhaps we should be patient for a few more days. ww2censor 03:27, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Being a Wiki novice, I am afraid I have no concept of "peer review."  Who is privileged to "put an article up for peer review?" What is its purpose?  Who is a peer reviewer?  What are reviewers supposed to do, exactly? Jeff dean 04:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

text: In my post above, i think the links explain. Editors such as yourself look at an article and post comments on how you think the article might be improved. There is a list of candidates on the Project page, but so far few brave enough to give it a try. Other Projects have a separate page for the comments, but we would need some activity to justify it(?). If you wished, you could add an article you have an involvement in, or you could read nominated articles and make suggestions. BMan1113VR is willing, so am I. We need more members willing to give it a try. There is an example peer review page for military history at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Peer review. We seem to be all beginners at this process here, but there's only one way to get experience. Ww2censor, do you think we should create a peer review page for these in-project reviews, or begin by posting to article talk pages?  Where to post the comments? (Comments on Motorcycle will come sooner or later.) Seasalt 13:30, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Talk:Ducati Apollo and Talk:Suzuki TL1000R each have one review. Anyone else willing to check them over and add their thoughts? Seasalt 11:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Peer Review thing

message: Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 19:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia Day Awards 

message: The unit formatter javascript of Bobblewick has been incorporated into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AndyZ/peerreviewer.js , but this does units slightly differently. It fills the space between the numbers and units e.g. (View following sentence in edit mode)It had a 61.2 inch wheelbase, and weighed 596 lb (270 kg). There seems to be a no-whitespace rule for units. You can view the "peer review" suggestions it gives, and can push a button to format "correctly". It can make errors in some changes...it changed sqfour.html into sqf tour.html, so there is a need to check its highlighted changes. Also it does not seem to activate until a second set of clicks are applied, in Mozilla at least. I have applied it to Ariel Square Four and Ducati Apollo.  Sort of a Peer Review Wiki Powertoy. If anyone else gives it a try, let me know what you think of it. Seasalt 11:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unit Formatter to Peer Reviewer

message: Portal:Motorcycles — There isn't one. Shouldn't there be? There are portals for cars and bicycles, but nothing in between. Shouldn't we be doing this??  Jeff dean 22:44, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering how little action has taken place on the Motorcycle racing portal as well as other specialist Portals I look at occasionally, I would only support such a move if an individual with motorcycle knowledge is prepared to give some longer term commitment to support it because it needs regular updating for it to succeed and not become fallow. I maintain the Philately Portal; that had some work done for about 6 weeks nearly a year ago and was then absolutely nothing was ever done to make it active until I worked on it in September. Since then I make some (approx.) bimonthly updates but since than there has not been one other contribution from those one might expect to give something. So please be aware that (from my experience) one cannot rely on others to contribute portal work. I will be happy to support you but don't have the time or inclination to work on another portal. Personally I think the Motorcycling Project is enough for now until we have many more interested editors. Cheers ww2censor 04:27, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly the Motorcycle racing portal may be too narrow a subject for a portal.  Motorcycling in general is broader and could be construed as a more lively portal subject. But, being a novice to these matters, my presumption could be wrong.  Jeff dean 16:48, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  IMHO we have to few editors, and the Motorcycle racing portal to me seams like a Moto GP (or at a stretch just road race) portal, not really covering all of motorcycle racing, motorcycle sport or motorcycling (not meant as a critique, just an observation) Pickle 17:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Portal:Motorcycles

message: I have added a bit about the media unpopularity as I have read in once in a magazine once and from my experience of enthusiasts as their fondness of slating the scooter version of the Katana for reasons of name, would it be fair to justify that in that section. Willirennen 18:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A scooter called Katana 

message: Motorcycles are visual feasts. They are beautiful!
Why is it that so many motorcycle articles on Wikipedia are devoid of photographs or have photographs of less than high quality?  One cannot appreciate a fine motorcycle without, at least, good photos.
I am going to Vegas next week to the Mid-America Motorcycle Auction.  I will get as many photos of vintage bikes as I can to add to articles relating to all kinds of motorcycles. But I am only one person. I urge all of you to take quality photos of the bikes about which you write and add them to your articles.
I try to do my part with respect to BMWs: User:Jeff_dean/Images/BMW_Photos. Let's all do it!
Jeff dean 01:24, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I plan on going to a dealer I know that has some pretty nice old bikes. He has everything. . .works on two strokes and my old 77 (when I am over my head), and sells modern race replica super sports. Will be sure to bring a camera next time. My car photo collection is [or will soon be] pretty strong, but my bike pictures minimal beyond my own bikes. -BMan1113VR 07:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

text: While I have found some appropriately licensed photos on flickr all the BSA Gold Star photos are copyrighted with All rights reserved. However, I have occasionally asked someone to re-licence a photo with the CC 2.5 licence and they have done that, so you might like to try that. Start here though this one is a good candidate. Cheers ww2censor 19:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to thank you Jeff, for all the photos added to bike articles. A great wiki-service. Seasalt 10:53, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  So few photographs! 

message: An IP added Confederate Motor Company? Seasalt 11:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Major and notable USA motorcycle manufacturers

message: Does anyone agree this Project talk page should be archived? - Seasalt 07:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ten to twelve screens full seems fine (I have seen much longer ones) but if someone wants to do so, please remember to leave any current unfinished discussions on this page. ww2censor 18:05, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree (keeps it tidy) Pickle 19:26, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive?