Talk:21 (2008 film)

message: Words like "high-stakes" used in conjunction as a modifier in the text of the article for the genre makes it read like ad copy, and requires substantial rewriting.
69.139.18.204 (talk) 02:45, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-NPOV 

message: Anyone with any knowledge why the film is called 21? Koalorka (talk) 04:03, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Its a movie about blackjack FearNotMan (talk) 12:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Insults are not desired at Wikipedia. Not every-one knows that "twenty-one" is another name for "blackjack." Kdammers (talk) 02:53, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Title

message: Section contains links to pages that all violate WIKI:NPOV. Facebook link contains illegal discussion on distribution of movie. Lets rewrite this and come to agreement before re adding.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.60.110.183 (talk) 05:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section on race issue

message: Although the four main characters in Bringing Down the House were Asian-Americans in real life, studio executives have cast mostly white actors to portray them in the film. Ben Mezrich, author of Bringing Down the House, has noted a "stereotypical" casting process on the part of Hollywood.MIT Alumnus and 'Busting Vegas' Author Describe Experience of Beating the House - The Tech  In the book, Mezrich explicitly states that a young white man betting large amounts of money stands out, while a young Asian or other minority would be less conspicuous.  Asian Week called the casting a "whitewash," pointing out that if it were black people replaced by white people, there would be more vocal protest.  Two of the main characters from Bringing Down The House, Kevin Lewis and Jason Fisher, are in real life Jeff Ma and Mike Aponte.
::Asian Week does not qualify as a valid source to use under wiki policy. The fact that it is quoted in the book also fails to note that the team was not a majority asian and this is just in the story for the point of story telling.~~  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.50.225.250 (talk) 11:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Also note that the article being stated for Mezrich's comments on "stereotypical" casting process is out of context. There is already a section on Asian American Portrayal in the media on wikipedia, this article belongs there. Not here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.50.225.250 (talk) 11:31, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Casting of Caucasian/Asian

message: Near the end of the movie, the track Music Is Happiness by The Octopus Project can be heard.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.75.48.46 (talk) 04:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Music Is Happiness

message: The plot section does not tell you what actually happens in the movie. In my opinion, it needs a rewrite. Anyone agree?98.212.49.204 (talk) 16:28, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bad "Plot" section

message: I thought I should give some examples here to support my claim - still standing as of the last edit - that "Biometric software" stood in for a wide array of new technologies . It's outside the scope of an article on the movie - maybe I should link to the wiki article on card-counting - but in addition to biometric face recognition systems to identify known counters or cheats, many casinos digitally record play at the tables and do skills checks using a play recognition systems with voice input. Some casinos embed RFID chips in their chips to track the exact flow of bets made (e.g: the Wynn in Vegas), other casinos use automated card readers embedded in some tables to track the exact flow of the true count (e.g.: Eldorado in Reno). Still other casinos prohibit mid-shoe entry on high-roller tables, switch some decks to use continuous shuffle machines, or tweak the odds in the casino's favor with rule changes such as "blackjack pays 6:5". The upshot of these changes is not to eliminate theoretically beatable blackjack games entirely - most casinos still have them - but to reduce the number of tables that need to be watched and how closely they need to be watched. Even with all this, you still need humans around to identify suspicious behavior, use all the new tools and interpret their results, and watch for cheating as well as card-counting plays. --Blogjack (talk) 16:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Biometric Software

message: 1. You Can't Always Get What You Want (Re-Mixed and Re-Edited by    Soulwax) The Rolling Stones 6:09     
   2. Time To Pretend (Super Clean Version) MGMT 4:20     
   3. Big Ideas (Album Version) LCD Soundsystem 5:40     
   4. Giant (Album Version) D. Sardy featuring Liela Moss 3:42     
   5. Always (Album Version) Amon Tobin 3:38     
   6. Young Folks (Album Version) Peter Bjorn And John 4:37     
   7. Mad Pursuit (Album Version) Junkie XL featuring Electrocute 4:16     
   8. Sister Self Doubt (Album Version) Get Shakes 4:22     
   9. I Am The Unknown (Album Version) Aliens 5:27 Album Only  
 10. Shut Up And Drive (Album Version) Rihanna 3:34 Album Only  
 11. Alright (Album Version) Knivez Out 3:31     
 12. Tropical Moonlight (Album Version) Domino 3:27     
 13. Hold My Hand Unkle 4:58     
 14. L.S.F. (Version Revisited) Mark Ronson featuring Kasabian 3:32     
 15. Tender Buttons (Album Version) Broadcast 2:51 Album Only
The song that is playing while he is walking through the airport for the first time is by Moby:  Slipping Away (Axwell Vocal Mix) - Moby —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.138.196.67 (talk • contribs) 
: Anyone know the song after Ben's pep talk with the team? I don't think it's in the soundtrack. ~ EmeZxX ` 04:23, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Music from 21 

message: (See Monty Hall problem for a full treatment of the car & goats challenge.)
The movie has an intriguing but flawed scene intended to highlight Ben's ability to rapidly grasp and resolve "math problems" (even though the card counting system portrayed in the movie doesn't require such skills of the players).
In this scene, the professor does not adequately describe the game show or its host's actions, and even suggests the show host may want to deceive the player, which would actually reverse the "correct" and "incorrect" answers.  So either Ben does not answer correctly (not so smart), or he already knows the problem and its answer (no need to think), or he fails to notice the "shortcut explanation" offered up by his professor (not all that observant).
But let's not make Ben (or me) look bad.  Since this is a movie, we can just reinterpret the facts to enhance my comment's cimematic appeal, like this:
Ben's brilliant mathematical mind is just his foot in the door. The actual skills required of the players will be such things as rapid recall, focused attention, and social adeptness including the ability to appear aloof and unconnected to the other players.  
So to make Ben spectacular, we will just conclude that due to his glowing social skills (ignoring the oversimplified puzzle and going for the impressive answer) and ability of rapid photographic recall (fetching the answer from his earlier reading), he instantly chooses the best course of action without a moment's hesitation (and does it very quickly too).
—Preceding unsigned comment added and edited and reedited and reedited by 204.210.143.31 (talk) 14:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you completely missed the point of that scene. It was meant as a way for Rosa to get interested in Ben as a team member, but its main significance was the emphasis on variable change. Ben accounts for "door number one" being out of play and opts to change his decision based upon what has previously happened. This mirrors the reason why blackjack can be played to an advantage by a skilled car counter, because card counters aren't "counting", they are tracking the composition of a deck and making decisions based upon variable change over the course of time. Rosa can use someone who understands this concept already without having to be versed in the theory of advantage play in blackjack. 47.137.183.192 (talk) 07:03, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flawed "Car & Goats Problem" scene 

message: 21 seems to me to be very heavily inspired by a recent Canadian flic called "The Last Casino". Does this merit mentioning in the article?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.140.42.82 (talk) 23:11, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Both movies, 21 and The Last Casino, were inspired by the book "Bringing Down the House" and the real MIT Blackjack team.  While The Last Casino did come out first, 21 takes its premise from the book, including having the author as a contributing consultant.  So both movies are just different interpretations of the same original storyline. With that said, it can be added the article but I'd be careful not to call 21 a remake. FearNotMan (talk) 23:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Although the plot of The Last Casino is very similar in plot, I'd be hesitant to say that the movie is based on Bringing Down the House without adequate citation. The IMDB details for the Last Casino don't show any conclusive link to Bringing Down the House. I'm not saying the writers of The Last Casino are guilty of plagiarism, but it's perfectly possible they came up with the plot on their own.--122.109.132.196 (talk) 07:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Similarities to movie "The Last Casino"  

message: Although card counting without the assistance of mechanical devices is legal [in Nevada, not necessarily in other jurisdictions], I am virtually certain that it is illegal to collaborate in any form surrounding a card game.  Because I do not have the legal citation, I have not edited the article, but someone with the time and inclincation should look into it.24.219.30.190 (talk) 18:47, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not illegal for players to collaborate in blackjack. It's also not the kind of game where collaboration changes the expected outcome. Players often show their hands and ask the table - or the dealer, or a significant other sitting nearby - what they should do. Or they consult with one another on how much to bet. It would be difficult to define the notion of "collaboration" in a way that excludes typical blackjack-table camaraderie. --Blogjack (talk) 15:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Okay, it turns out I need to qualify that. The legal definition of cheating in Nevada is sufficiently vague that it is conceivable a casino might be able to make a case that signaling is a form of cheating. Cheating is defined as anything that "alters the criteria which determines the outcome of a game".  However, so far as I am aware, no casino has ever tried to convict anyone of cheating in that situation. So it's a speculative notion, not established law, never tested in court. My source on this is Blackjack and the Law by I. Nelson Rose and Robert A. Loeb. --Blogjack (talk) 05:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am pretty sure counting cards, without the use of any special electronics or gadgets, is totally legal.  However, casinos are private businesses and can expel you for any reason they see fit.  If you are winning more than they like, they can kick you out.  Private businesses in the US can refuse customers as long as its not a discriminatory basis.  In response to card-counting, casinos are using continuous shuffle machines to reduce the success of calculating the outcome of the next card dealt.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.122.187.165 (talk) 03:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legality of Card Counting 

message: I have merged this into the "Production" section.  There is no need for it to have its own one-setence header. hbdragon88 (talk) 20:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Filming dates 

message: The DVD is coming out within 4 months of being in theaters...this is unusually fast. Anyone know why? --Erroneuz1 (talk) 06:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: DVD

message: FYI, the source code from 0:11:21 (chapter 3 of DVD) is from NOAA's GPS Toolbox.  Visible lines are 1348-1392 (page 1) and 1584-1631 (page 2).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tvh2k (talk • contribs) 03:55, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: C++ source code for "The 209" contest

message: Why does the movie look like it's filmed in Paris rather than Vegas? It shows the Eiffel Tower, and other such stuff in the film.
-There's a replica of the Eiffel Tower in Vegas dumdum.
72.201.237.39 (talk) 20:45, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Location? 

message: Why does the movie look like it's filmed in Paris rather than Vegas? It shows the Eiffel Tower, and other such stuff in the film.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ffgamera (talk • contribs) 11:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sigh... See the Las Vegas Strip page or visit the place. 47.137.183.192 (talk) 07:08, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Location? 

message: : This 'paradox' is very often taught in probability classes, and I think you are wrong. The probability that the initial choice is the car is 1/3, which means that with probability 2/3 the car is behind the other two doors; so 2/3 of the time, the host tells you exactly which door has the car. It would really be paradoxical if the probability that the initial choice is good would magically increase to 1/2.. I haven't read your program in detail as it is overly complicated, but think about it a little more: switching is successful exactly when the original choice was wrong; which happens 2/3 of the time. Raduberinde (talk) 13:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact, check this entire article about this problem: Monty_Hall_problem I am removing the relevant part from the main page. Raduberinde (talk) 13:30, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your contribution. I checked Monty_Hall_problem article which brought the light to the question. The key lays in these words:"...and the host, who knows what's behind the doors, opens another door..."My simulation and conclusion were correct, but the initial problem definition was missing the part above. The Monty_Hall_problem article also warns regarding the risk of ambiguity. I must admit I don't remember (and have no way to check) the exact words in the movie. (If anybody does, please post...). Jurohi (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 15:33, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Quote from the movie: "the game show host, who by the way knows what's behind all the other doors, decides to open another door" Raduberinde (talk) 18:18, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks + my apologies Jurohi (talk) 04:55, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mathematical controversy 

message: The Media Action Network for Asian Americans (MANAA)[8] reported on their web site: “After the ‘white-washing’ issue was raised on Entertainment Weekly’s web site, [21] producer Dana Brunetti wrote: “Believe me, I would have LOVED to cast Asians in the lead roles, but the truth is, we didn’t have access to any bankable Asian-American actors that we wanted.”[9]This argument seems flawed: while Spacey and Bosworth are fairly well-known, Jim Sturgess’s IMDB resumé seems to boast mostly a few TV spots and the lead as Jude in the flop Across the Universe. 21 even already had Aaron Yoo, who starred in American Pastime and had a large role in 2007’s Disturbia, who was clearly available, and who could have excelled as a lead rather than a supporting role as sidekick.
Guy Aoki, MANAA’s Founding President, had spoken to Brunetti about the film in October of 2005. Back then, Brunetti said he did not care about realistic ethnic casting and was merely looking for “the best actor for the role”- a common excuse to cast white people in place of minorities.
Says Aoki, “Asian American actors are 40 years behind African Americans in being allowed to play themselves in their own stories. 21, unfortunately, continues that discriminatory tradition.''
I removed the stuff in bold since none of it is sourced, seems like original research, and may be being used simply to promote one side of the argument. --Ted87 (talk) 03:39, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  This is definitely OR.  I need to start reading the article more...instead of just checking the diffs. hbdragon88 (talk) 04:10, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed material from Casting section 

message: As the subject headline quotes, this is part of the plot synopsis. The term swap out is not given in any of the wikipedia items on gambling or casinos. It is a technical term given here with no explanation. Can some one find explanation and a reference and put it into a relevant Wikipedia pageBrunswicknic (talk) 16:48, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  casino swaps out (a common practice after a fight) 

message: At about 52 or 53 minutes into the movie, Kris Williams is in the background of the scene at the bar as one of Jill's friends, wearing a blue shirt. I don't have a screen cap, but she's mentioned in the IMDB as being in the movie as an uncredited role. 65.87.47.137 (talk) 02:53, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kris Williams from "Ghost Hunters" minor background cameo 

message: Does anyone else think this article is up to GA status?--Bigpoliticsfan (talk) 00:44, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Looking for someone to nominate this article for GA status 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Since the movie is said to be based on a book, it would be nice to have a section on deviations from the book, as is often the case for articles like this one. Kdammers (talk) 14:44, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  book