Talk:Sacrifice in Maya culture

message: The types of sacrifice section contains slabs of text copied verbatim and uncredited from the Gates translation of De Landa's. The relevant portions from this text are:
"Apart from the festivals which they solemnized by the sacrifices of animals.. on occasions of great tribulation or need the priests or chilánes ordained the sacrifice of human beings. For this purpose all contributed, for the purchase of slaves. Some out of devotion gave their young sons. The victims were feted up to the day of the sacrifice, but carefully guarded that the. might not run away, or defile themselves by any carnal acts; then while they went from town to town with dances, the priests, the chilánes and the celebrants fasted.
"When the day of the ceremony arrived, they assembled in the court of the temple; if they were to be pierced with arrows their bodies were stripped and anointed with blue, with a miter on the head. When they arrived before the demon, all the people went through a solemn dance with him around the wooden pillar, all with bows and arrows, and then dancing raised him upon it, tied him, all continuing to dance and took at him. The impure priest, ventured, ascended and whether it was mars or woman wounded the victim in the private parts with an arrow, and then descended and anointed the face of the demon with the blood he had drawn; then making a sign to the dancers, they began in order as they passed rapidly, dancing, to shoot an arrow to the victim's heart, shown by a white mark, and quickly made of his chest a single point, like a hedgehog of arrows."
Even worse, this text has been "filled out" by completely fictional and lurid details about pre-teen boys without any references either. If I get a chance, I will try to fix this up, but in the meantime I'm placing a warning tag.--203.214.25.155 (talk) 21:28, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Decided the only course of action is a complete rewrite (I am above IP address user) and I have some time to try Johncoz (talk) 01:20, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plagiarism and worse 

message: The Human sacrifice section is far from neutral in point of view and may contain original research. Examples:
:The attitude of the chroniclers often seems to be not so much outrage at religious cruelty and murder, since they after all were from a world where pious public execution of the most brutal kind was a social norm, but indignation that it was being done in the name of false gods.
No source is given for the above info and it gives every impression of being original material/opinion of the editor.
:De Landa fails to mention that he had initiated and overseen this Inquistion himself.
This appears to be criticizing De Landa's actions.Simon Burchell (talk) 10:58, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: On rereading this section I largely agree (these things happen when you start from scratch), and in addition it is really in the wrong section. Have moved and reworked the material. --Johncoz (talk) 17:45, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality and Sourcing

message: I feel the article should at least address these issues. There a several problems though, most obviously the lack of scholarly consensus once any level of detail is reached, and the risk of introducing OR as a result. But I think by following the NPOV guideline and sticking to statements "no one would seriously dispute" is probably the safest approach. The possible exception is perhaps the last sentence, which I have therefore heavily referenced and which I believe does represent a consensus, though different terms may be used ("consecration" is very common). However, I am not married to any of the formulations, and would be happy for any suggestions. --Johncoz (talk) 05:04, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins, Meaning and Social function 

message: There's a line in the first paragraph that says "The maya people would sacrifice their prisoners. The prisoners were most often from neighboring tribes. These sacrifices made them feared and hated by all the other tribes."  Should this read "the aztec people...?" PorkchopLarue (talk) 01:09, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Reference to Aztecs

message: Does anyone have any evidence to support heart removal sacrifice during the classical era in either the Peten or Guatamala regions? All the evidence for it I've seen is limited to the Post Classic Yucatan.  It seems to have arrived at Chichen at the same time as other distinctly Central American traits such as the four-staircase pyramid. The so called "Toltec-Maya" culture. The Classical Maya certainly sacrificed people in large numbers, but I only have sources pointing to strangulation or decapitation.  If someone can provide a good cite for classical era heart sacrifice I'll leave things as they are, otherwise I'm going to go through the page and try to clarify the apparent distinctions between the Classical rituals and Post Classic Rituals. 80.68.52.236 (talk) 11:47, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Stelae 11 and 14 at Piedras Negras in western Petén on the north (Guatemalan) bank of the Usumacinta both depict heart sacrifice. Stela 14 is dated to the Late Classic. See for example Sharer & Traxler The Ancient Maya 6th ed. p.724. Piedras Negras was abandoned in the early 9th century, so both stelae predate the Postclassic. Best regards, Simon Burchell (talk) 17:00, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Toltec-Maya

message: This phrase, referring to Diego de Landa, struck me as POV-pushing. I can claim no expertise in the history of the Mayas and the Spanish conquest, aside from reading all of the related articles on WP out of curiosity. But as the respective articles seem to suggest, the Black Legend is a historiographical theory which claims a counter-factual demonization of the Spanish conquest by its political enemies; on the other hand, the article on de Landa makes his numerous misdeeds against the Maya pretty clear, with a lot of good evidence to back them up.
It would seem inappropriate to invoke the Black Legend with someone whose actions are so well documented. It trivilizes de Landa's very real wrongdoing by invoking a political controversy that doesn't seem to apply to him directly. To me, it seems a bit like calling Joseph Stalin "a central villain of the anti-communist hysteria in early 1950's United States." Well yeah, certainly true, but he also was a brutal dictator responsible for millions of deaths. 
At any rate, I won't change it myself, since as I've said I only know what I read on WP about these subjects. But I hope someone with some responsiblity for this article will keep my observation in mind. Junggai (talk) 18:50, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "despite his being a central villain of the Black Legend..." 

message: Save for the writer's name, there is no reference. Could this be a Pipil custom? Then it is out of place in this article.131.211.214.99 (talk) 18:19, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Two Bancroft Boys