Talk:Egyptian calendar

message: In my opinion, any reference that the Egyptian calendar is still used appears to be a misunderstanding, written by people who think that the Coptic calendar is the Egyptian calendar. The Coptic calendar differs from the Egyptian calendar by adding a leap day every four years, a feature that the Egyptian calendar never had. I can only accept a reference that it is still used if the writer knows of this difference or if the writer knows that the Egyptian New Year's Day differs from the Coptic New Year's Day by five months. In the Gregorian year labeled 2006 the Egyptian New Year's Day (1 Thoth) was 22 April, whereas the Coptic New Year's Day was 11 September. The reference to Saint's days (never used in Ancient Egypt) and the Youssef reference by a linguist proves this misunderstanding. — Joe Kress 00:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The coptic calendar is nearly exactly the same, and is the same principle.  Treat it like this:  You have one open source game engine, but you change, say, what colour the mouse is in it.  They are the same engine.  --86.14.243.202 17:41, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Coptic calendar is exactly the same as this calendar after 22, except for the era of its year. It isn't the same as this calendar before that date. The article does a better job of expressing that now. — LlywelynII 13:13, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

text: You assume incorrectly that the author is unaware of this rather trivial detail. The change introduced under the Ptolemies (the so-called "Alexandrian calendar") represents a simple reform to the Egyptian calendar. The Coptic calendar is a direct continuation of the Egyptian calendar with the addition of Euergetes' leap day that was adopted later. That the Egyptian calendar prior to the Graeco-Roman period did not have that feature is entirely irrelevant to the simple statement I added, which I am now going to re-add with further additions to the article. Furthermore, the population at large, who is mostly Muslim, technically does not use the official Coptic calendar, whose dating begins with the Christian 'Era of the Martyrs'. That detail did not prevent you, however, from stating that that Coptic calendar is used by "the Egyptian populace in general". This is true only in the sense that the calendar used by Egyptian Muslims is a continuation of the Coptic calendar, in turn with roots in ancient Egypt. The agricultural calendar used by Egyptian farmers today is simply the Egyptian agricultural calendar, same Egyptian seasons, same Egyptian months. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · ☥ 11:08, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your additions to the article are very good, but I must insist that that "trivial detail", the Alexandrian reform, be mentioned relative to the modern version of the Egyptian calendar. Accordingly I am adding the one word "reformed". Your previous wording did not delimit who was using what calendar, especially the misleading sentence "It is associated with many local saint festivals throughout Egypt." There was no discussion of who uses what eras, and there still is none. I consider that a critical detail. If Egyptian Muslims don't use an era with their Egyptian calendar, then state so—but they may use a modified Hijra era, like that used in association with the Turkish version of the Julian calendar for over a century immediately prior to its adoption of the Gregorian calendar . — Joe Kress 21:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

text: As a side note, the Alexandrian calendar was Augustus's reform and not Ptolemy III's. — LlywelynII 13:13, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Still used?

message: (The following table is tab-formatted.  I'd fix it myself, but I'm not sure what it means or its significance to the article.  --Vrmlguy 15:10, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't seem to have any application at Wikipedia, unless there's a specific line or two that are relevant to a point being made by the article. It would still need a source. — LlywelynII 13:13, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Sothic chart

message: If you delete this from discussion, it will be put in the main article, and i will write congress and the senate to close Wikipedia.
This following statement is an outright lie, and although sources neglegiently once thought this 100 years ago, people like AnonMoos like to worship such lies and then pretend nothing has never corrected it in our schools. It shows a lack of respect for the scholars who have corrected it and published it. It shows arrogance when he is one man in millions.
quote: From this it is possible to calculate that the previous occasion on which this occurred was 1322 BCE, and the one before that was 2782 BCE. This latter date has been postulated as the time when the calendar was invented, but Djer's reign preceded that date. Other historians push it back another whole cycle, to 4242 BCE.
TRUTH: not my truth but published truth, go find an astronomer rather than prove yourself this arrogant evil person you are. Fact, 1322 BC July 20 is Thoth 1, heliacal-rise occurred 2 days earlier on July 18. (fact)  In, 1314 BC July 18 is Thoth 1 (it WANDERS bcause of 2 leap days) and heliacal-rise occurs. Truth, Richard Parker famed Egyptologist who AnonMoos despises by deleting Parkers research and astronomy, 1872 BC heliacal-rise occurs on July 17 at Memphis not July 20.
Truth, Richard Parker therefore corrects 2782 BC Thoth 1 July 20 as the 3rd day after July 17 heliacal-rise, 2770 BC July 17 is Thoth 1.
quote: The heliacal rising of Sothis returned to the same point in the calendar every 1460 years (a period called the Sothic cycle).
That is false, the New YearThoth 1 returns in 1460 years not Sothis prior to 139 AD. It has been 1460 years only since 139 AD where no one has used Egypts calendar but rather the Julian calendar which is absolutely Sothic since 139 AD.
quote:  The difference between a seasonal year and a civil year was therefore 365 days in 1460 years, or 1 day in 4 years. 
This is false, a Sothis year is not seasonal. any Mayan scholar will tell you taht 1508 haab is 1508 egyptian years or 1507 Gregorian years which are seasonal. That means that in 1460 years or 1507 years or 1508 years is 377 days not 365 days. The seasonal year is 12 days less than the sothic julian year and so the egyptian calendar has to WANDER back another 12 days in 48 years.
How come AnonMoos is allowed to ruled. How come he isn't forced to consult an accurate scholar. This country has had three attacks on Egyptian dates including Thoth 1 September 11 and i will write President Bush and ask if AnonMoos is involved. I am serious. The FBI will be on your ass if you think you can twist pertinent information that China has to question should be banned or not, and you think our children should go to your twisted almighty lies as reference material.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.76.46.169 (talk) 14:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: With all due respect, writing in this tone makes you sound unhinged. Simply speak respectfully and present sources to back up your points. — LlywelynII 13:13, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Outright lies continually replace truth

message: Did you realize, that in your article is mathematic mistake? If there was heliacal rising in year 1322 BCE and the cycle is 1460 years, how could be heliacal rising in year 139 CE? Wasn't it year 138?--Niusereset <SMALL>czech Wiki-user</SMALL> 13.XI. MMVII 13:20 CET
:The difference between 1322 BCE and 139 CE is 1460 years because there was no year 0.
:All calculations that involve both BCE and CE have to adjust to take this into account.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.159.95.252 (talk) 11:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Astrally the year 1322bc is labelled as -1321. Leap years are thus divisible by 4 in the astral system not the BC system. example 2369bc is leap year, it is -2368. example Mayan 3113bc is leap year it is -3112. Further the actual Censorinus record calculated by astronomy as 139 AD July 20 is calculated by calendar as 140 AD July 21. This is a 2 day discrepancy since 140 AD is a leap year so that Thoth July 20 in 139 becomes July 19 in 140 AD, or Thoth July 22 in 139 becomes Thoth July 21 in 140. Since the natural rising doesnt leap the same year the calendar does, I guess July 20 was the solution as the average rise every year (Memphis latitude). The reason July 20 has stood the most recent 1460 years is because the star is currently on the axis line of the summer solstice 6-hour Right Ascension. The distance before that line in 1322bc is an angle that makes Sothis appear 2 days earlier as well as being 3 days earlier in 2782bc and 2770bc. This is why it is so pathetic that you list Richard Parker as a source while you ignore his pointing out July 17 for all years 2782bc to 1872bc. His 1991bc 12th dynasty is based on year 120 (1872bc July 17) and yet you keep claiming July 20. And since Thoth is July 20 in 139 but not 140, they then conclude the year recorded as 140 must be a mistake for 139. I fail to see the reasoning. There is no logic being used by them.98.144.71.174 (talk) 08:59, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  heliacal rising of Sirius 

message: :"A text from the reign of First Dynasty King Djer (c.3000 BC) indicates that the Egyptians had already established a link between the heliacal rising and the beginning of the year."
A text from the reign of Djer, eh?  This needs sourcing.  My understanding is that there are no known "texts" from the reign of Djer.  In fact, the first complete sentences do not even appear until around the time of Peribsen.  Anyone know if there is a Reliable source for this and most of the other unsourced "statements" in this article??? Many thanks, Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 10:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alleged "texts" from the reign of Djer - dubious 

message: The rising of Sothis is in Genesis. The 70 days of Sothic absence is the reason they morn Jacob 70 days. The 365-day calendar begins with those 70 days (May 8 to July 17). Manetho uses a 5200bc Adam. It is proven that he thinks Menes is Adam because his 1st dynasty begins 930 years later in 4270bc when his Adam (Menes) would have died and 1st dynasty kings would be successors of him. He then says the 7th dynasty was 70 kings who ruled 70 days. And this falls in 2770bc which then means he is using the May 8 thru July 17 system. As for Genesis long chronology, it avoids doing what short Genesis does which is place those 70 days at the death of Peleg when Unas Sakkara died. This is because in short Genesis his death is year 340 after the Flood, but in Egyptian it is 3090-2321bc (768 years after it, with another 768 to Moses). AS for new years day, the same word is used for Thoth as Sothis, yet Thoth is on Sothis for only 4 years every 1460 years. It is also a word used for winter solstice and summer solstice. The date Parmuti 16 is said to be 1872bc July 17 which is 8 days after July 9 summer solstice (July 10 in 1991bc). But 48 years later in 1824bc July 10 is a rise of Sothis at 12th dynasty Fort Quban on 23*latitude on PERSIAN Parmuti 16, and 185 days after Egyptian Paopi 16 is on January 6 (winter solstice was Jan 6 in 1991bc and Jan 5 in 1824bc). You see I beleive every calendar shows a global disaster by comet encounter in the year of exodus and every nation decided to add 180 leap days for their pasty 720 years of 365-day calendar. China and Maya both pivot their calendars on the year 1513bc, and the 1444 years that Greeks use as 2958-1514bc is used by Africanus as 3237-1793bc (end of his Noahs Flood to an exodus leaving Hamurabi of Babylon. He further says the flood of Ogygos (destruction of Greece by the flood of Thera Atlantis) was the same year as exodus. Information from Jack Finegan chronology. 98.144.71.174 (talk) 09:17, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Biblical connection

message: It would be nice to know when the first undiputed use of this calendar began. We are told that the 3000 BC date is "too early", but not what a more reasonable estimate might be. When was the lunisolar calendar thought to be used? When did the Copts add the leap day? Etc. Rwflammang (talk) 14:07, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: WHEN? My personal belief is this calendar began 2030bc on July 17 (340 years after a 2370bc global Flood that carbon dates as 20,000bc). This 2030bc July 17 which now appears calculated as a Pamenot 6, is retained as Persian Pamenot 1. However, for those who do not wish this Bible Genesis view of calendar at Peleg's death, you will be happy to know that original Septuagint chronologies and pre-Roman chronologies of nations use 2770bc July 17 (Thoth 1). For NeoBabylon (747bc) this is a Flood of 2947bc and a calendar 177 years later (6-orbit Saturnalia of Saturn). It is derived from Ur ruling 177 years as 2207-2030bc, but the fall in 2029bc is later regarded as 3rd dynasty because Ibbi-Sin is in Ur and scholars will not believe he lived 159 years (2060-1901bc) to have died in a 3rd dynasty (2009-1900bc). It is Moslem Genesis and Christian Africanus who use the 2782bc July 20. So you are talking about 2770bc July 17 used by chronologists from 1290-280bc, and then 2782bc July 20 used by chronologists from 139-622 AD; and my chronologist named Moses is 1513bc. But i do use all calendars to prove Moses correct, rather than just think he is because he's a Bible. 98.144.71.174 (talk) 09:44, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

text: Done, although you're right that the earliest certainly attested date would be nice. I think it's all going to depend on the reconstructions of the Sothic cycle but maybe there's a few pieces that are separately confirmed, such as a treaty with the Hittites or something. — LlywelynII 13:13, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: More dates, please

message: Studying calendars you will find religious mismatches. EXAMPLE the (Egyptian Greek) Alexandrian Era of 5500bc is a date for Adam using the Coptic calendar new year August 29. Though long chronologies started with a Flood in year 2256am, the prefs have become 2242am and 2262am for the Flood (Hippolytus 3258bc; Africanus 3238bc). But the EGYPTIAN COPTIC new year Aug 29 is taken from the Neo Babylon Flood year 2947bc (Thoth 1 = Aug 30) and Noah's grandson Arpaxad 2945bc (Thoth 1 = Aug 29) which is 2256am for a 5200bc Adam, not 5500bc. This 1460-year cycle hits the years 2947 to 1487 to 27bc, and 2945 to 1485 to 25bc, when the Coptic calendar was created by Octavian Augustus. This Coptic calendar was NOT created in 284 AD and yet August 29 is used by many as that Era too, which is when the book Josephus claims is 6000 of Adam from 5716bc (he uses 2256am to Flood 3460bc, but also 2656am to Flood 3060bc). The point is all these Eras are misusing a Thoth date that came from the year 2947bc as calculated in 747bc and is used by Caesar in 27bc after 720 years of 180 leap days.98.144.71.174 (talk) 09:54, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mismatch 

message: Moved here from discussion misplaced on my talk page:
:The first day of the year was fixed at July 19 (Julian = June 15, Gregorian), when two extra-ordinary events greeted the eyes of tillers - the beginning of the Nile flood and the appearance in the heavens at the hour of sunrise of the star Sothis (Sirius)... / from "From Tribe to Empire" (A. Moret and G.Davy, 2013, First published in 2005) / You can find it on Google. / It says: June 15 / That book of  Alexandre Moret and Georges Davy was written in 1926. Böri (talk) 13:23, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Fixed calendar

message: The following 'sources' were listed in the Bibliography but completely unused by the article:
*Grimal, Nicolas. A History of Ancient Egypt. Oxford: Blackwell Publishers, 1997.
*Shaw, Ian. ed. The Oxford Illustrated History of Ancient Egypt. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2000.
*Watterson, Barbara. The Egyptians. Oxford: Blackwell Publishers. 1997. 
*Youssef, Ahmad Abdel-Hamid. From Pharaoh's Lips: Ancient Egyptian Language in the Arabic of Today. Cairo: American University in Cairo Press, 2003.
Kindly restore them once they are being used to verify some statement within the running text. — LlywelynII 13:13, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources for article expansion

message: that were previously given here, at its Wikipedia article, and since copied around the internet were unsourced and are apparently utter bullshit. The complete treatment of the Antikythera parapegma is behind a paywall for Almagest Vol. 7 No. 1, but this source states that only three of the months—none involving variant spellings—survived and the rest are simply reconstructions. — LlywelynII 23:56, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: "Antikythera Mechanism" versions of month names

message: is from the individual words given in transcription by Parker but, since spellings can vary, it should be replaced by an attested form of the name when a source provides it. — LlywelynII 04:04, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Hieroglyphic form of "Temple Month"

message: from the internet:  the flooding of the Nile began each year around the end of June / Akhet was the first season of the year, between the months of June and September. /  Akhet began in June. /  the Nile's flood which began in late June / The Nile flooded in a more or less predictable pattern. Each year in late June, the Nile began to rise because of heavy rains in the highlands of Ethiopia / The flooding usually began around June and it happens every year / The 1879 very high flood started as early as June. (about the Nile) /the rise of the Nile began in the month of June / During the month of June, the Nile began to rise / spring rains are carried by the Blue Nile into Egypt and cause the Nile to flood. This overflow, beginning each year early in June / Before the Aswan Dams were built in the twentieth century, the Nile River flooded annually. The inundation began in June and lasted until September. Böri (talk) 07:51, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  other sources: "History of Ancient Egypt" (Nathaniel Harris)- Sirius, the bright "dog star", rose above the horizon on about 19 July, beginning the new year and, more or less simultaneously, the inundation. / "Encyclopedia Americana" (1973), Volume 10, Egypt, Ancient - Science and Technology - Timekeeping: inundation (July-September) / "Pockets- Ancient Egypt" (Scott Steedman) akhet (July to October)Böri (talk) 07:17, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flooding of the Nile 

message: see the table on German Wikipedia https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achet Böri (talk) 09:16, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for that hint! This table is nonsense. Reference is a software tool but no Egyptology science. According to B. E. Schaefer: The heliacal rise of Sirius and ancient Egyptian chronology. In: Journal for the History of Astronomy. Band 31, Mai 2000, , p. 154 those dates suggest an unrealistic precision. In addition it's based on a single support date which by good chance has been misinterpreted. Even in Richard Anthony Parker: The Calendars of Ancient Egypt. In: Studies in Ancient Oriental Civilization. volume 26. The University of Chicago Press, Chicago (Illinois) 1950 the author advocates the theory of a rise of Sothis date tied to astronomy while seasonal month names aren't tied to the seasons although all feasts "of the times" being celebrated only once a year have been tied to the civil calendar by the time of the New Kingdom. --Vollbracht (talk) 23:48, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  German Wikipedia 

message: The year began traditionally around mid-July... "Inundation" (mid-July to mid-November)/ from: "Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs", the book of James Peter Allen Böri (talk) 11:03, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Only in moon calendar. The civil calendar year started after 365 days without regard of the season. --Vollbracht (talk) 23:52, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  James P. Allen's book 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Until this morning the article said that this calendar lost one day against the sun every four years (which is true).   It then went on to say that this shortfall would accumulate to four months (i.e. 120 days) every century.   If you do the math, however, since there are 25 groups of four years in a century the actual shortfall is 25 days.   The article was corrected, but the claim has come back.   What I guess happened is that in doing the math the editor mistakenly took the shortfall as 1.25 days per year instead of 0.25.   In a century this comes to four months. 2A00:23C3:36:BC00:6DED:1968:40DC:CDDD (talk) 12:03, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: This error has been in the article since February 2017 when one user made a large number of changes, until an anonymous user attempted to correct it. I have made another attempt to correct it. Karl (talk) 13:26, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claim that the old Egyptian calendar loses four months against the sun every century