Talk:Ante Starčević/Archive 1

message: Purgers' addition
1. My contribution to this article was labelled as 
deleted usual Serbian propagandist rubbish or rv, trolls with usual Serbian mis- & disquotation disease-
and subsequently deleted. This 'approach' and all others supporting this one will be ultimately counteracted by reverting to my version without a comment or discussion.
2. As it was explained by an anonymous user: 
- their (Gross, Barisic, Goldstein) findings about Starcevic's racism and anti-semitism are not scholarly questioned by any serious scholar/historian
- to describe Starcevic's racism and anti-semitism these historians used Starcevic's own words - literally copied from the Starcevic's works and correctly interpreted
- these Starcevic's words are correctly translated into spoken English inside this article
- this racist and anti-semitic attitude of Starcevic is nurtured and maintained inside his Party of the Rights for more than 60 years - in order to explode, in the most villainous way, in the years 1941-45 annihilating hundreds of thousands of innocent people of the wrong "breed".
The last conclusion is confirmed by the great British historian and the Oxford University professor - A.J.P. Taylor, too.
3. I am not interested in any other aspect of the Starcevic's life or work. Whoever wants to contibute about Starcevic as a writer, a philosopher, a historian - is free to do that provided not changing the findings about his racism and anti-Semitism. Any change of the existing contribution for better - is welcome provided that is really for better.
--Purger 22:15, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you are not familiar - that's fine. But, then, avoid passing any judgement about her and her work.--64.18.16.251 15:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I am not interested in the matter mentioned above - his politics or lasting legacy. Leaving it to some other people.--64.18.16.251 15:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

text: You can add more text about him - not related to his racism and anti-semitism and make this text you are targeting to be a contribution say of 30% only. Also, I do not think that Starcevic is more than a provincial politician - from the European prospective and this is the English language Wikipedia edition.--64.18.16.251 15:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Start of talk page 

message: As to the scholarly work of the three renown Zagreb University historians, M. Gross, I. Goldstein, and Pavo Barisic:
- their findings about Starcevic's racism and anti-semitism are not scholarly questioned by any serious scholar/historian
- to describe Starcevic's racism and anti-semitism these historians used Starcevic's own words - literally copied from the Starcevic's works and correctly interpreted
- these Starcevic's words are correctly translated into spoken English inside this article
- this racist and anti-semitic attitude of Starcevic is nurtured and maintained inside his Party of the Rights for more than 60 years - in order to explode, in the most villainous way, in the years 1941-45 annihilating hundreds of thousands of innocent people of the wrong "breed".
Therefore, marking their findings about Starcevic as questionable - is frivolous and groundless and, in all subsequent edits of this article, shall be ignored.
--64.18.16.251 13:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Starcevic's anti-semitism and racism is described by his own words

message: Come on, people, stop reverting this article!!! Lets discuss about the content first! --Boris Malagurski ₪ 06:05, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your changes are being reverted because they are POV.--Adam (talk) 03:42, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverting 

message: Let's see. As has been pointed out elsewhere, there is a pattern is behavior of some Serbian wiki users (I think I could pick up Purger (whatta idiocy), Bmalagurski, Milant, Mylan, Esta..whatever, they all look the same to me. Not to be confused with Miloš, Duja etc.). Their "contribution" and activity consists mainly in spreading anti-Croat propaganda in the following ways:
*put out a distorted translation of quotation from some Serbian propagandist site
*insist on drumming upon of "negative" aspects of Croatian history & try to extend it, by projection, to the contemporary Croatian society and culture (main obsessions: Jasenovac, Ustaše, Homeland war,...). Avoid trying to explain why this right extremism had appeared at all, minimize Četnik atrocities, maximize (or, insist on absurd fihures) the Ustaše atrocities, keep silent about Croatian participation in WW2 partisan-Communist movement, ..
*keep us posted on ICTY indictments against Croatian generals in the Croatian liberation war 1991-1995, while simultaneously whine about ICTY's partiality against Serbs. Looks like the ICTY is "right" when it indicts Croats, but wrong when it releases Kosovo Albanians
*insist on the trait Slaven Letica has called "pathological Serbian possessiveness": try to appropriate to the Serbian cultural and historical heritage the bulk of Croatian literature, architecture, historiography, history,..mainly in regions like Dalmatia, Dubrovnik, Slavonia, Bosnia, coastal Montenegro/Boka, Herzegovina
*quote out of context, even misquote the sources. Find Croatian self-haters (for instance, journalists like Jelena Lovrić). Avoid quoting those who can be termed authorities in the field.
*as regards the page on Starčević-it will be continued, don't worry. Without quotes from "srpska mreza" and similar "sources". It will be said that Starčević, along with other 19th century writers, shared racialist (not racist) worl-view that considered one ethnicity superior (in a more distant past, Shakespeare's English as a "happy race"), and others inferior or detestable. This was a world-view of Dostoevsky, Flaubert, Marx, Engels, Thackeray ("you are a French-beating animal"), Henley, Hegel, Schelling, Pushkin, Clausius, Nordau,...As for the alleged anti-Semitism: Starčević simply didn't care about Jews. He'd got a low opinion about them, as did virtually everyone in the Western world from the Ancient Greece on, which can be seen on the wiki page on anti-Semitism, or on linx that, although one-sided, give an array of not very favorable opinions on Jews (Voltaire, T.S. Eliot,..): https://www.tightrope.cc/jewquotes.htm, http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-references-gentile-whatotherssay.htm (never mind the biased nature of the site-the quotes are real),  Such quotes may be found everywhere. So-what ? Where is Starčević different from others ? Mir Harven 15:40, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a little shocked by what you've admitted. You said that the homeland war is a negative aspect of Croatian history. Do you realize what you have said? Also, you put quotation marks for the word "negative" when reffering to Jasenovac, Ustase... Why the quotation marks? Are you saying that it's a joke? --serbiana - talk 18:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't worry, it was just a typo with brackets omitted (a frequent case with the longer sentences or those involving a few disparate concepts. Also: the quotation marks were intentional, because ustaše were not negative (nor positive): it was a historical reaction of the part of the Croatian nationalist movemnent to the years of the Serbian oppression. To define it as "negative" would be as absurd to define Soviet Communism, the most murderous regime on earth as "negative" or "positive". Those Croats and Bosnian Muslims who volunteered to take part in the Ustaška vojnica-more than 40.000 people in 1943.-cannot be labelled as war criminals, nor as traitors, as anti-Croat propaganda would have it in the Communist Yugoslavia period. The pathological murderers like Maks Luburić or totalitarian dictators like Ante Pavelić cannot cast the shadow on all the participants in the Ustaša military forces, any more than Joseph Mengele or Adolf Hitler can contaminate the memory of German soldiers, particularly Waffen SS who fought in the WW2. This is even more true about ordinary people or intellectuals who participated in the NDH regime (for instance, Adolfo Bratoljub Klaić, the author of famous dictionary of foreign words, or the sculptor Augustinčić, who made a bust of Pavelić, but later switched sides. Do I have to repeat ? The NDH was a quisling state. The vast majority of people involved with it and working for it were neither quislings nor criminals. And, this is just the NDH talk. Let's not forget that, as far as resistance movement goes, the Croats were the majority both in leadership and in fighting forces who were not forced to   join the resistance (like the Serbs in the NDH), but did it out of ideals. And, in the percentage of participation, heavily outnumbering other nations in ex-Yugoslavia-except, pehaps, Montenegrins: http://www.hercegbosna.org/engleski/ww2.html Hmmm...I haven't seen anything that would refute the claim that Serbian propagandists are vandalizing not a few wikipedia pages, solely with the aim of spreading anti-Croat chauvinist hatred. Mir Harven 19:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

text: And ? Ustaše atrocities are not denied-as are Četnik or Communist ones. The above statement just corroborates what I've already said: your agenda is anti-Croat chauvinist one, since you claim (as far as I have read from the text) that all Ustaša soldiers were sadist murderers. Well, that would be ca. 40.000-70.000 people. Your statement reveals a sick state of mind. Mir Harven 21:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

text: There are hundreds and thousands of Četnik and Communist murder stories. http://www.forum.hr/showthread.php?t=138257, http://nemacenzure.7.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=3466 Also, these are investigated in scholarly works, like http://www.sveznadar.com/knjiga.aspx?knjiga=63983 Mir Harven 21:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

text: The sole purpose of the Ustaše leadership was to establish a Croatian state, which they did first as Mussolini's, and then as Hitler's puppets. As for many thousand members of Ustaška vojnica-and, as I said, they numbered between 40.000 and 70.000, the central goal was to defend their ethnic areas from Četnik and Communist intrusions and massacres. Another members of the Ustaše-led bureaucracy, like Bratoljub Klaić, writer of the 1944. etymological orthography, or Zvonimir Remeta, one of the best Croatian novelists of the 20th century, did not participate in any bloodshed, nor did they plan any. And this is a good litmus of what the entire thing is all about: those Croats and Bosniaks who participated in the Ustaša movement, more than 100.000-150.000 in 4 years, are stigmatized as murderers and criminals by default, by Serbian chauvinists. Well-no sane mind will ever accept this.Mir Harven 21:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I doubt they are, but, this is not the point. Mir Harven 21:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Members of the Ustaše movement, and the part which can easily be catalogued, did commit atrocities and war crimes. But-the bulk of ordinary members of the Ustaša military forces-as I said, ca. 50.000 fightrs-were not war criminals any more than ordinary members of Četnik royalist or partisan communist movemensts. Mir Harven 21:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

text: This claim is, per se-sick. No wonder you guys spill your venom on wiki, or your "Armies" fled, whenever stumbling upon even slightly armed adversary during 1991-1995 wars- frightened by images of your own propaganda on diabolical, bloodthirsthy Croats in black shirts who enjoy licking blood of Serbian children and cut throats just for fun. You live entrapped in your own perverted mind. Mir Harven 21:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: On chronic Croatomania afflicting not few Serbian wiki contributors

message: Ancient historiography:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/De_Administrando_Imperio
On Croats
.........
But the Croats at that time were dwelling beyond Bavaria, where the Belocroats are now. From them split off a family of five brothers, Kloukas and Lobelos and Kosentzis and Mouchlo and Chrobatos, and two sisters, Touga and Bouga, who came with their folk to Dalmatia and found the Avars in possession of that land. After they had fought one another for some vears, the Croats prevailed and killed some of the Avars and the remainder they compelled to be subject to them. And so from that time this land was possessed by the Croats, and there are still in Croatia some who are of Avar descent and are recognized as Avars. The rest of the Croats stayed over against Francia, and are now called Belocroats, that is, white Croats, and have their own prince ; they are subject to Otto, the great king of Francia, or Saxony, and are unbaptized, and intermarry and are friendly with the Turks. From the Croats who came to Dalmatia a part split off and possessed themselves of Illyricum and Pannonia ; they too had a sovereign prince, who used to maintain friendly contact, though through envoys only, with the prince of Croatia. For a number of years the Croats of Dalmatia also were subject to the Franks, as they had formerly been in their own country ; but the Franks treated them with such brutality that they used to murder Croat infants at the breast and cast them to the dogs. The Croats, unable to endure such treatment from the Franks, revolted from them, and slew those of them whom they had for princes. On this, a large army from Francia marched against them, and after they had fought one another for seven years, at last the Croats managed to prevail and destroyed all the Franks with their leader, who was called Kotzilis. From that time they remained independent and autonomous,....
..................
These baptized Croats will not fight foreign countries outside the borders of their own ; for they received a kind of oracular response and promise from the pope of Rome who in the time of Heraclius, emperor of the Romans, sent priests and baptized them. For after their baptism the Croats made a covenant, confirmed with their own hands and by oaths sure and binding in the name of St. Peter the apostle, that never would they go upon a foreign country and make war on it, but rather would live at peace with all who were willing to do so ; and they received from the same pope of Rome a benediction to this effect, that if any of the pagans should come against the country of these same Croats and bring war upon it, then might the God of the Croats fight for the Croats and protect them, and Peter the disciple of Christ give them victories.
...............
Again, Symeon sent another army against prince Zacharias, under Kninos and Himnikos and Itzboklias, and together with them he sent also Tzeeslav. Then Zacharias took fright and fled to Croatia, and the Bulgarians sent a message to the 'zupans' that they should come to them and should receive Tzeeslav for their prince ; and, having tricked them by an oath and brought them out as far as the first village, they instantly bound them, and entered Serbia and took away with them the entire folk, both old and young, and carried them into Bulgaria, though a few escaped away and entered Croatia ; and the country was left deserted. Now, at that time these same Bulgarians under Alogobotour entered Croatia to make war, and there they were all slain by the Croats.
On Serbs
........
But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking a moiety of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius received him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time has acquired this denomination. 'Serbs' in the tongue of the Romans is the word for 'slaves', whence the colloquial 'serbula' for menial shoes, and 'tzerboulianoi' for those who wear cheap, shoddy footgear. This name the Serbs acquired from their being slaves of the emperor of the Romans. Now, after some time these same Serbs decided to depart to their own homes, and the emperor sent them off. But when they had crossed the river Danube, they changed their minds and sent a request to the emperor Heraclius, through the military governor then governing Belgrade, that he would grant them other land to settle in. And since what is now Serbia and Pagania and the so-called country of the Zachlumi and Terbounia and the country of the Kanalites were under the dominion of the emperor of the Romans, and since these countries had been made desolate by the Avars (for they had expelled from those parts the Romani who now live in Dalmatia and Dyrrachium), therefore the emperor settled these same Serbs in these countries, and they were subject to the emperor of the Romans; and the emperor brought elders from Rome and baptized them and taught them fairly to perform the works of piety and expounded to them the faith of the Christians
...........
and there they were all slain by the Croats. Seven years afterwards Tzeeslav escaped from the Bulgarians with four others, and entered Serbia from Preslav, and found in the country no more than fifty men only, without wives or children, who supported themselves by hunting. With these he took possession of the country and sent a message to the emperor of the Romans asking for his support and succour, and promising to serve him and be obedient to his command, as had been the princes before him.
...............
On the status of Croatian language, regarding quotes from Zlatarić and Vetranović (Vetranić-Čavčić)
http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rekli_su_o_hrvatskom_jeziku
(in Croatian)
As is evident, every Starčević's claim is corroborated by older history and literature sources. The reliability of some history sources (DAI) has been questioned only in 1970s. Mir Harven 10:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Some Starčević's sources in his polemic agains [[Greater Serbia]]n ideology

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_language#Serbian_literature
OK-where are the examples of the Serbian language during the era Starčević claimed it had not existed as a wriiten language ? Don't try to sell Serbian Slavic, since this language is as different from contemporary Serbian as is the Russian language. Well....I'm waiting....Houston, do you read me ? Mir Harven 19:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Serbian vernacular literature & literacy in the 1400s , 1500s, 1600s, 1700s- what's this ? =

message: What the heck are you guys doing over here? You're arguing more than possible to follow. What's wrong with Ante Starcevic? Sure, he claimed that the Serbs (Darkness) will probably be consumed by the Croats (Light), but he was just an excentric. Not even slightly excentric than the Serbian claims that the Croatian nation is going to be melted into the Serbian through the Serb migrants from Ottoman invasions. I guess that the only real rhethoric nonsence that he endorsed was his historical POV-pushes regarding Red Croatia, and how the Nemanjic dynasty was Croatian, so that Croatia's historical borders must be restored by all costs (from Istria to Attica), lol... :) He considered Stefan Dusan to be a greater Croat overmaching Tomislav. --HolyRomanEmperor 10:30, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that these Serbian POV-pushers that can be viewed if someone accesses the history of this article forget that Ante Starcevic's mother was a Serb. :)))) So much of the bad, bad Croats. Really, cool down (sorry ol' chump, Mir, but you gotta cool down too :) --HolyRomanEmperor 10:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not know what of your comment above should be taken seriously. One thing I do not like, whether serious or not, is labelling people (Serbian POV-pushers) - practiced by Harven, too. I was the main contributor about Starcevic's racism and anti-Semintism. My findings are exclusively based on the works of the Croatian historians - Gross, Barisic, and Goldstein and some verifications of these findings in the Starcevic's works in the Zagreb University library. Also, I did not delete anything from the previous versions of this article - even though I did not find some of them reasonable. Finding my contribution wiped out, labelled as Greater Serbia propaganda etc. - I could only restore the article to the previous version waiting on honest people who a) could contribute that part of Starcevic's biography not yet touched by others and that might be worthwhile reading b) discuss honestly the existing contributions. Once more, skip labelling people this or another way - not knowing about them anything.--Purger 13:22, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Are you acusing me of being Mir's sockpuppet? Please read WP:NPOV and WP:POV. Also please note that when you're writing about Ante S. you're writing about a Father of a Nation. Please also read Stalin, where a list has been made stating what was good and bad in his life. For instance, they confirmed that Mao Ze Dong did 30% and 70% good. Do you understand? --HolyRomanEmperor 19:22, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I really do not see what you wanted to say - due to the fact that your first sentence has no connection to the second one. Your third sentence does not make sense to me too - I am not writing about a Father of a Nation, nor I ever regarded him this way. As to the notions of good or bad - I wrote only about his racism and anti-Semitism - which cannot be neglected, even more, deleted under pretext of not following WP:NPOV and WP:POV. A man's biography is not a list of bad or good things he had done during his life - rather a collection of facts that shall be passed to a reader, worthwhile of reading in some way.--Purger 12:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm just saying that you should ease down. --HolyRomanEmperor 17:07, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wow... 

message: I suggest that anonymous stops inserting this higly controversial tag, especially due to the fact that according to that logic one can tag almost any nationalist of the romanticism era as a crypto-fascist. Infact, it's no secret that a lot of romantic nationalist were both racist and anti-semite, and not only nationalists for that matter, even socialists like Mikhail Bakunin, but I really don't think anyone in the right mind would call one of the fathers of modern anarchism a fascist... However, I do support the addition of a subsection in the main article explaining his position on racism and anti-semitism, but it needs to be done in a NPOV way with respectable, verifiable sources, and not the way it has been done in the previous version of the article, which was written from a Serb extremist point of view, and was infact nothing more than a propaganda pamphlet. Therefore, I'm removing the tag, and would ask those who truly wish to improve this article to do it the right way, without causing unnecessary controversy and flame wars. Thank you. --Dr.Gonzo 22:57, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, my friend, Starcevic's racism and anti-Semitism is verifiable with the most respectable, verifiable sources - his own works as it was stated in my contribution. Also, the same racial tenet of his is correctly spotted and quoted by renown scholars and historians - P.Barisic, M.Gross, I.Goldstein, A.J.P. Taylor. So, when using somebody's (Starcevic's) work as is it is completely neutral way of saying something about him. But for you and a number of other people - everythong is POV whatever is not to your liking. Puting Bakhunin in this context does not make sense to me at all. Bakhunin had not entertained ever an idea describing people like an animal breed (pasmina) - which Starcevic does. Bakhunin never wrote or talked about people that had "just half of the human mind" and, for that reason, they "shall be governed by people of the human nature". It was just Starcevic. Bear in mind that Starcevic's racial tenet was part of Pavelic's program of extermination of those who had "just half of the human mind" - Jews, Serbs, Romas.--Purger 11:48, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, "my friend", two can play that game. If you tag Starcevic as fascist, I can tag almost any serbian nationalist from Vuk Karadjic to Vuk Draskovic as fascist too. And I'm sure you wouldn't like that. Why? Because it's biased POV, just as your POV here. And infact, even Bakunin DID talk about Jews in a similar manner - "this entire Jewish world, which constitutes an exploiting sect, a people of leeches, a voracious parasite, closely and intimately connected with another, regardless not only of frontiers but of political differences as well -- this Jewish world is today largely at the disposal of Marx or Rothschild... etc". In the historical context it is certainly not uncommon for 19th century Europe. Again, you could have made this abundantly clear in "your" version of the article, but instead chose to resort to drawing low propagandist punches. So, what will it be? Will you compromise or will we continue this rv war? --Dr.Gonzo 12:13, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are free to put your tag whenever you want - I am not concerned about it, and it is not related to this article. As to the Bakhunin's writing - it is not still comparable to those of Starcevic's. My low propagandist punches are findings of the renown scholars and historians - P.Barisic, M.Gross, I.Goldstein, A.J.P. Taylor - presented as is. And also, do not try to relativize Starcevic's racism and anti-Semitism. It is only what shall be known about him - for an European reader. Philosopher? Writer? Historian? What else? Compared to Bakhunin - just an obscure little provincial politician - like it or not!--Purger 13:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now listen here, you little vandal! This encyclopedia isn't your playground or the place to vent out your childish frustrations! Its objective is to be neutral and truthful, and to present as much relevant information as needed. Who the fvck are you to judge if this man was or wasn't a relevant philosopher, writer, historian or anything else?? He is certainly significant as far as Croatia is concerned, an in that sense everything relevant about his life and work needs to be presented! You have stepped over the line too many times for me to just let this slide. If you continue with your campaign of vandalization of Croatia-related articles I promise you I will make it my personal mission to see you and your vandal buddies Medule, Mostassa, Purrger, etc. banned from Wikipedia FOREVER. Again, I'm not saying anti-semitism and racism info about Starcevic shouldn't be included in the article, I'm saying it needs to be presented in a NPOV way. Every single administrator out there will support this. It's your choice, stop vandalizing or else. --Dr.Gonzo 14:29, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fascism tag 

message: I requested semiprotection. See Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Ante_Star.C4.8Devi.C4.87_.28edit.7Ctalk.7Clinks.7Chistory.7Cwatch.29 --Asterion talk to me 23:48, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enough... 

message: :...was a Croatian politician, philosopher, and writer. A philosopher? Very interesting. And, what was his monumental philosophical work? Maybe "How to crow like a rooster"?--4.249.6.18 00:35, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Veeery interesting! Could you give us that ghastly Greater Serbia site where we could clearly see the quotes chopped out?--4.249.6.18 00:35, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: And could you quote in full at least one of the Starcevic's great ideas - which influenced  major Croatian intellectual figures? Just for the readers' amusement!--4.249.6.18 00:35, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Trivia. Today's the most ardent follower of Starcevic (a philosopher) is a well-known man, Anto Djapic. The named Anto is the head of today's Croatian Party of Rights - whose political views and programme are exactly the same as those of Starcevic's. Anto is a member of the Croatian Sabor (Parliament) for over the last 15 years. Anto entered the law graduate studies at University of Split and mastered his M.Sc. thesis using the omnipotent scientific method called 'copy and paste'. Naturally, he failed to earn the M.Sc. degree for being exposed and his scientific work, therefore, annulled. But he is still the MP and even once he was the presidential candidate. He even tried to be a member of the Croatian state government - which was resolutely prevented by some EU politicians. So, the Starcevic's legacy is alive - racism, criminal, lies, forgeries.--4.249.0.92 17:55, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Now, about this page

message: Please use the page Ante Starčević/Requested Changes (a copy of currently protected article) to work on a consensus version. Unless there are some actions, this page will stay protected for a long time. Regards, E  Asterion u talking to me? 07:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the RfC does not seem to be working. I agree we should all try to make a satisfactory version on the page Asterion created. --Zmaj 12:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please continue to make progress on a consensus version so unprotection can occur as soon as is feasible. 00:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll just go ahead and unprotect, there has been no discussion here for weeks and normally we don't leave pages protected for this long. Haukur 08:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sandbox for requested changes 

message: NOTICE: 64.18.16.251 and a number of other users have been identified as sock puppets of Purger. See here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Purger. --Zmaj 09:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Notice on sock puppets

message: I asked Haukurth, who unprotected the article, to help us move Ante Starčević/Requested Changes to Ante Starčević, because it should be tried (if possible) to preserve the history of the new version. --Zmaj 09:34, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I'll do that. I must admit, though, that I had completely missed the existence of that page when I unprotected so I didn't factor that into my decision. I apologize for my clumsiness. But now that I've seen it it doesn't look like it's having an edit war so I'll gladly do what you ask and move it here. Moving the talk page is a bit more tricky, you might be best off just cutting and pasting the sections you want. Or we could archive everything here and move the new talk page over it. Haukur 09:38, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done the move. Contact me again if you need some admin action on the talk page. Haukur 09:40, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Thank you for your help. I will cut and paste the talk page. --Zmaj 10:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for moving the page

message: ----
I have moved these discussions from Talk:Ante Starčević/Requested Changes, since that article has been moved to this one. --Zmaj 10:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said above, I do not intend to start an edit war. I have asked Asterion to read the last two chapters and make any changes as an impartial judge. --Zmaj 09:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Medule, don't pretend to be stupid. It would be like going to the "Muhammad" article and writing: "Islamist terrorists trace their lineage to this prophet." --Zmaj 13:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Croatian Party of Rights is founded by Ante Starčević. From same party fasist Ustase movement appeared. Same fascist Ustase movement called Starcevic father of Homeland.--Medule 13:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Medule, you have made a mistake which is quite common. It even has a name: Association fallacy. Read about it and try to be less emotional in the future. --Zmaj 09:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Reductio ad Hitlerum could also teach you a thing or two. --Zmaj 09:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but Pavelic rose politically in that party, in that ideology. That party was already extreme right party. Pavelic was member of that party for long period of time and inside party he found ideologicaly same people. So linkage from Starcevic is clear enough.--Medule 11:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, you are neither the first nor the last stubborn contributor who does not want to discuss things. Fortunately, there are other steps I can take. --Zmaj 12:05, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: You really hate this man, don't you? --Zmaj 06:31, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: By the way, are you Purger or Medule? Just for curiosity's sake... --Zmaj 06:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was my change in article, but not above change about Lika in Slavenski Jug . Last night I opened for long time that article. In meantime login timeout expired, so only my IP 212.102.135.* could be seen. But it was me. That above about Lika in Slavenski Jug is not me.--Medule 07:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hard to keep track of all your sock puppets? Maybe another CheckUser will help. --Zmaj 07:31, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussions moved from the temporary page

message: This article was created after the edit war on the page Ante Starčević and the discussions on its talk page. Over the last weeks, I have greatly expanded it. Now that I have finished, there remain the controversial last two chapters. I have not deleted anything from them, since I know it would trigger an edit war again. So I will provide my thoughts here and hope some impartial user will change what needs to be changed.
The chapter "On Jews and Serbs" has NPOV content, but it is POV in the sense of undue weight. It should probably be shortened.
The entire chapter "Starcevic's racism and its followers" should be deleted, because it has nothing to do with Starčević. It is a collection of unrelated attacks. See Association fallacy.
--Zmaj 09:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What needs to be done

message: Removed:
When Starčević wrote, Anti-semitism had been quite popular for several centuries, stretching from Martin Luther to 
Richard Wagner.
Note: This is a pretty racist claim aimed to relativize Starcevic's racism
Also, the subtitle About Serbs and Jews is not appropriate at all. It is about his racist's views where the Arabs are mentioned,  too. So, putting back Historical findings about his political ideology
--Purger 20:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said above, I do not intend to start an edit war. I have asked Asterion to read the last two chapters and make any changes as an impartial judge. --Zmaj 09:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsubstantiated and meaningless 

message: Zmaj, you again started to revert something with facts. "The Croatian fasist movement called Ustaše trace their ideological lineage back to the Croatian Party of Rights founded by Ante Starčević and his rasism against Serbs And Jews."
In the article about that Party you will find facts about that link.--Medule 12:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Medule, don't pretend to be stupid. It would be like going to the "Muhammad" article and writing: "Islamist terrorists trace their lineage to this prophet." --Zmaj 13:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Croatian Party of Rights is founded by Ante Starčević. From same party fasist Ustase movement appeared. Same fascist Ustase movement called Starcevic father of Homeland.--Medule 13:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Medule, you have made a mistake which is quite common. It even has a name: Association fallacy. Read about it and try to be less emotional in the future. --Zmaj 09:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Reductio ad Hitlerum could also teach you a thing or two. --Zmaj 09:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but Pavelic rose politically in that party, in that ideology. That party was already extreme right party. Pavelic was member of that party for long period of time and inside party he found ideologicaly same people. So linkage from Starcevic is clear enough.--Medule 11:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, you are neither the first nor the last stubborn contributor who does not want to discuss things. Fortunately, there are other steps I can take. --Zmaj 12:05, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Association fallacy

message: "His travelogue From Lika was published in Kušlan's magazine Slavenski Jug on 22 October 1848. He wrote four plays in the period 1851-52, but only the Village Prophet has been preserved. His translation of Anacreon from Ancient Greek was published in Danica in 1853. His critical review (1855) of Đurđević's Pjesni razlike was described by the Croatian literary historian Branko Vodnik as "our first genuine literary essay about older Dubrovnik literature". His opus shows an affinity with practical philosophy, which he calls "the science of life". As Josip Horvat said: His literary work from 1849 to the end of 1853 made Ante Starčević the most prolific and original Croatian writer along with Mirko Bogović."
There is nothing to add to these accolades - except that all these 'achievements' are not of European level of that time nor his work ever atracted anyone in Europe of that time - nor today.
I do not know how a reader might find it educative or interesting to learn about 'four plays written - and only one preserved' or about 'critical review of Đurđević's Pjesni razlike'. Why not to have all above exclusively within the Croatian Wikipedia article about Starcevic only?
Yeah, almost had it forgotten! What where Starcevic's 'philosophical essays'? How to walk on four and  How to crow like a rooster - maybe?
:You really hate this man, don't you? --Zmaj 06:31, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, are you Purger or Medule? Just for curiosity's sake... --Zmaj 06:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was my change in article, but not above change about Lika in Slavenski Jug . Last night I opened for long time that article. In meantime login timeout expired, so only my IP 212.102.135.* could be seen. But it was me. That above about Lika in Slavenski Jug is not me.--Medule 07:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hard to keep track of all your sock puppets? Maybe another CheckUser will help. --Zmaj 07:31, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nice written - and just of provincial level of importance 

message: There was a sentence in the article that went like this:
:Starcevic said the following words: "self-determination of the Croatian people is only possible at the expense of denying and exterminating the Serbian people."
Even though there are many suspicious quotes in the article, this one really stood out. Ante Perkovic questioned its truthfulness, correctly pointing out that it was slander until proven true. 
Yesterday Bormalagurski added the source of that quote: A Little More Truth, an open letter by Mr. Todorovic, Public Affairs Officer of  SAVA, the organization of Americans of Serbian heritage. 
As Wikipedia:Reliable sources says, a quote from the Internet means nothing by itself, since anyone can post anything on the web. Secondary sources are reliable if they are written by reputable scholars, people that can be trusted. I read the entire text by Mr. Todorovic and can say with absolute certainty that the man not only cannot be trusted, but is extremely biased and unreliable. This is what Mr. Todorovic says of the Croats:
:I agree, there is a difference, when you compare the average Croatian coward to people like Vietnam War hero, Lance Sijan, a Serb.
:However, I agree with you, there is a cultural difference between the Serbs and the Croats, our illiterates make most Croats appear stupid.
And this is what he says about modern Croatia: 
:How self-righteous of both of you to ignore the fact that since 1990, the Croatians have succeeded in cleansing 600,000 Serbs and nearly every Jew from Croatia, to fulfill their Nazi dream of a Greater Croatia.
Mr. Todorovic generously extends his disdain to Muslims too:
:There is little doubt that after 500 years of Ottoman slavery, the Serbian people have a right to despise the Muslim Serbs who betrayed their faith and enslaved their own brothers.
No comment. Such displays of hatred are both ridiculous and sad. However, the use of such "sources" indicates that some contributors (and proven sock puppets) have a POV agenda and that every claim against Starčević needs to be thoroughly checked. Still, I am confident that we will eventually get rid of all the defamation and give Starčević the article he deserves. --Zmaj 07:11, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, trying to destroy the credibility of the link. Nice try. However, there are several books that prove he said it. Now, if you would get your ass off the computer and read something once in a while, maybe your comments would be less childish. --serbiana - talk 20:51, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:CIVIL. Moreover, if there are several books that prove it, it is up to you to cite them, not me. It is you who must prove your accusations. Like anybody else, Starčević is innocent until proven guilty. --Zmaj 06:58, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unreliable source

message: I stumbled across this article accidentally - searching some references about the Austro-Hungarian empire. Reading this heated discussion above, I was prompted to check a few things:
- part of the Starcevic's racism and its followers based on and quoted from the A.P.J. Taylor's book is correct
- in this book - History of the Balkans (The Joint Committee on Eastern Europe Publication Series, No. 12) by Barbara Jelavich, Cambridge University Press 1983
I found another confirmation of the Starcevic's racist attitude:
page 66
Among the nationalists, the most popular was Ante Starcevic, the head of the Party of Rights, whose doctrine had strong anti-Serbian overtones.
Starcevic and those of similar views regarded the Serbs simply as second-rate Croats. They could be 'croatized' just as the Hungarians were attempting to magyarize their minorities.
page 67
He contiued to regard the Serbs as Orthodox Croats.
Also, there is no Starcevic's biography in the Encyclopaedia Brittanica - contary to the fact that there are entries about his political enemy Strossmayer and his language reform rival - Karadzic. Searching further (www.amazon.com) found a pitty fact: Starcevic's works and works about him are only in the Serbo-Croatian - zero availability, zero interest in those works.
Advice to the contributors - pay attention to the (linguistic, literary, political - if any) results of this man and not to his political activities, fightings or beliefs. Nobody is famous for his fightings or beliefs. Only clear results and valuable ideas that survived a man and passed the borders of his contemporary realm and the time in which he lived - are the things making that man famous. --Matt Parlow 01:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A few notes