Talk:Helvetii

message: Should this not have references? --Filll 15:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hope the references are sufficient now...! ;-)Trigaranus 10:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: Hello there. I have written a more detailed article on the Helvetii, partly by translating some paragraphs of the German article into English, but mostly by following its structure and general outline. I have also taken the liberty of including the pictures from the same article, for which I would like to ask the original posters their forgiveness.
As far as the contents go, I tried to be as balanced as possible, mostly relying on the most recent monographies on the Helvetii (SPM IV and Furger-Gunti). I have also tried to give as many references to the ancient literary sources as possible, thus allowing everybody to return ad fontes and see for themselves. With a historical people so sparsely attested (mostly in Caesar and Tacitus, really), the original literary sources are very easily summarised.
Please feel free to correct my English where necessary. Where you disagree with the article's content, please post your imput on this discussion page.
Cheers, Trigaranus 17:59, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whopper 

message: If anyone should feel a desire to write an article on the minor tribes accompanying the Helvetii (Rauraci, Latobrigi, Tulingi), or on the Veragri, Nantuates, Seduni and Ubii, I think it would make sense to set up redirects for the first group and for the second and bundle them together in two articles only (one for the three along the Rhine, one for the four from Valais). That way, one can avoid having them tagged as "stubs" (as there really isn't enough information on all of them to fill seven full-scale articles). Trigaranus 18:29, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor Tribes 

message: "What Caesar implies to have been a desperate flight without stopping could actually have been an ordered retreat of moderate speed, covering less than 40 km a day.[28] " (from the article)
I don't have access to the source cited for that, but I'd question any source which implies that 25 miles (=40km) per day is moderate speed for an ancient army. That's a relatively high speed for an individual, and thousands of people all moving at once can only slow things down.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/526561?seq=2
The above link is a reference for 25 miles a day as an emergency forced march speed for the legions (during Boudica's revolt) and that is with a well developed road network.
Similarly, Vegetius (in the fourth century) gives 24 miles per day as the forced-march speed for a legion, over roads, and Caesar himself gives 23 for an estimate closer to the time period.
These are Roman miles, which are actually slightly shorter than British miles (but not by that much).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.10.12.91 (talk) 21:14, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Speed 

message: The article could use a lot of tightening up in terms of notes and note formats and carefully considered and referenced statements instead of editor opinion. I'm putting this on my snack list.Dave (talk) 02:43, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Keep a tight ship

message: No way. Scorched earth is when you destroy your country's resources as you retreat so that the advancing enemy cannot use them. The Russians are past masters of that. That is not what the Helvetii were doing. It was a measure of population control by the leading men, presumably, like Orgetorix, of the nobility. But, I am not going to argue this with you. I or you are not here to argue, we are here to present. In the first paragraph you presented the political doubts concerning the validity of Caesar's journal. Those were not YOUR doubts. You backed it up with a reference, which, although I cannot access the book, looks very substantial. It is a collection of scholarly essays on the same theme. Here you are presenting nothing but your own opinion. We aren't interested in your opinions or interpretations. As you can see, they lead to nothing but endless bickering, which we term Wiki-wars. Whatever you can coherently present and support with sources intelligibly named you will find that I do not oppose, except possibly to make sure you present it in language that is NPOV (neutral point of view). I think on this one you took too much for granted, that you did not have to refine and improve your prose. The fact that you can't see the thousands of people reading it may have mislead you. Anyway, if you have a holiday to go on, go on it. Ciao.Dave (talk) 19:51, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoa, slow down pilgrim. I don't remember where I had the "scorched earth" from (probably from the German article as it was when I expanded this one here), and am not sorry to see it gone. Don't worry, except for the slightly too spirited and lecturing talk page entries, you're doing a good job. Should I take umbrage at anything you change, I will let you know (for example that thing about Orgy dying "in camp", which I am about to revert). I have also re-introduced a little more detail in the Orgetorix affair as far as it is of interest from a sociopolitical point of view. Trigaranus (talk) 23:58, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I just saw this. I noticed you have some changes there. I haven't checked them yet. I have to get my Caesar out. I'm mainly concerned with references and formatting, the elimination of editorial conjecture, and the neutralization of non-neutral language. I'll start detailing my reasons. I see you want to add detail. I was hoping to cut it down. But, if you want detail have the detail. I may divide further into sections if it gets too long. By the way, I'm only doing a certain amount this round and then I fear I am going to abandon you again. It's a round-robin list sort of thing. I can't stand to work on one article too long. But, be assured, I'll be back. You seem to shy away from refs. Why? I didn't really feel I was getting into WP until I faced the refs. On with the show. I'm not reverting anything, only looking at what you currently have. I'll put the critique under here. Later.Dave (talk) 01:12, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Scorched earth

message: Fine on the first paragraph but you left the ref in error. I fixed it. For the tribal names, you got two of these names wrong, one seriously ("Latobrigi"). Now, one has a stub and the other two have nothing. I looked at the stub and I would in NO way trust it. What we need on those is an article for each detailing the ins and outs of their identity and location. Until we do and even if we do I don't think we ought to bring it up here. Not having done the research yet I don't know what the likelihood of their being Germanic or something else is. Considering that the map gives more credible information than you do, I'm taking out your conjectures as to origin as more appropriately covered in the future articles. If no one else does it I suppose I will have to (again). Here is a duplicate of the whole thing just in case:
:the Raurici (at the Rhine knee), the Latobrigi (perhaps around Lake Constance--They might be attested at Bregenz (CIL 3,13542). Cf. SPM IV, 37.--, the Tulingi (of unknown origin, maybe even a Germanic tribe--Ethnonyms on -ing- are not found among Celtic tribes, but they do occur in the names of Germanic peoples such as the Silingi--, 
By the way these are quite interesting insertions, but I think you are still not getting the point. I don't know what your role is in real life, and don't especially care, but your role on WP is NOT that. You are NOT a contributory scholar here, only a WP editor. So, you can't present these things on your own. You need an authority, even if in real life you might conceivably be one, and I hope someday you will be. Just not here. I suggest you immediately go and work up the Tulingi article. When you present the "ing" name idea, however, you need a reference for that. This is probably the toughest thing for a college man to accept. Your authority is worthless here. You can't tell people how it is, only how someone else says it is. Them's the rules, like it or not. With that in mind, let's now go forward with this until I get the urge to move on, then you may do as you like - until I get back.Dave (talk) 01:36, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Bob, if you used a bit more of your energy reading instead of talking down to other contributors, it would be greatly appreciated. I mean, I would take any kind of criticism from dab because I know the guy is a genius and his edits are usually top notch, but I guess that's a matter of my own personal taste. As for the Latobrigi-Latovici, the first version is used in two out of three instances in BG and is the one the name is traditionally emended to in the other instance, where the original has Latovici / Latobici depending on the MS; Latovici is a variant sometimes, but not universally, used in modern editions. They are usually kept apart from the Latovici of Slovenia, though the issue is not all that clear. I'll try and have a look at the articles. BTW: I've left you a question on "Vindos" under Talk:Boii: where is that alleged deity from? It's not attested as a theonym in any inscriptions I would know of. Trigaranus (talk) 18:28, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Raurici, Tulingi, Latovici

message: Hi, added a section referring to Turicum (Zürich) and the Prehistoric pile dwellings around Zürichsee, namely Alpenquai, Grosser Hafner and Kleiner Hafner in Zürich. Not my 'core task' within WN-WP, therefore thanks for taking notice and use of the addition as you prefer, p.e. by adding also the Prehistoric lake crossing and trade rooute, and some other related wikis started. Kindly regards, Roland zh (talk) 21:25, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  History added by [[Prehistoric pile dwellings around Zürichsee]] etc 

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thread_title:  External links modified