Talk:Tomato sauce

message: The two paragraphs theorizing about the term "Sunday gravy" (beginning with "Some Italian Americans...") do not have references, are likely purely anecdotal and should be removed.
Spope3 (talk) 02:59, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Sunday Gravy" 

message: OK, what did Europeans use before tomatoes for a pasta sauce? Not even McGee says anything about that. Figs? There must have been some food niche that it filled in Italy, just as chillis did in South Asia (that is more obvious). So?
:Probably olive oil and a number of vegetables or fish thrown into the sauce.  Also, pesto is a very old sauce, which is also olive oil based.  It is important to remember that tomatoes were embraced more in the south than in the north.  In Venetian cuisine, for instance, you hardly find tomatoes, eggplant, peppers, or anything else identified as "foreign."  The Venetians used a lot of black pepper, which was more expensive than gold at the time.  Venice was the NYC of its day, making its money by monopolizing the Indian spice trade.  This is why the Spanish contracted Columbus and so many other mariners: to find a way around the Venetian stranglehold and gain access to the wealth of the east.
:Anyway, I digress.  I have a cookbook by Valentina Harris called "Southern Italian Cooking."  In there it says the earliest pasta recipes came from the Arabs (a hundred years before Marco Polo's run to China) who took ceci beans and made a loose felafel-like mixture, and fried it into crepes.  The bean crepes were then sliced into strips and tossed with whatever the family had: leftover meat, wild greens, chestnuts which were very cheap back then, and herbs.  Pasta was basically a way to stretch the meal, like bread.72.78.11.48 13:38, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Precursors? 

message: Having edited the Marinara paragraph, I'm not really sure why it's not a article of its own.  The first paragraph is pretty dubious too, but I don't have time to edit it now.  It's all very well to put a disclaimer about the recipe at the bottom, but still... — Moilleadóir 12:02, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:   More Marinara 

message: Can anyone with knowledge of authentic Italian cooking comment on marinara? I heard somewhere that pasta alla marinara could have just about anything on it -- one description I read said something like "the cook put in everything but his horse". --FOo 23:40, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Marinara does not have fish in it.  This is a tourist invention based on the expectations of the tourists.  "Marinara" refers to mariners, who needed a quick dish to make, as they were on the clock and fire is dangerous on any ship, especially the tiny fishing boats they used.  It is a contrast to a ragu, which could cook for hours.72.78.181.23 (talk) 14:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marinara 

message: Marinara is a tomato sauce for pasta, pizza, or dipping which contains seafood in a tomato sauce. From the Italian 'alla marinara' or 'sailor style', marinara sauce usually includes tomatoes, onions and herbs and can include a variety of seafoods such as scallops, oysters, and anchovies.
Marinara has become a misnomer for any type of tomato sauce, which does not contain meat, particularly in the United States. In Italy, much of Europe, and many of the finer restaurants in the United States, marinara specifically indicates that the tomato sauce contains seafood. Tomato sauce without meat or seafood is referred to as "Napoletana" whereas tomato sauce with meat is referred to as "Bolognese".
*I don't think the preponderance of the evidence is on your side, based on a quick google search. There is indeed a number of seafood dishes known as "alla marinara", but I believe that on the whole it's a regional usage. There does seem to be an older salsa marinara that is based on wine and seafood, but I don't think it's all that common and doesn't have tomato in it. A couple of cites: a recipe in Italian Lidia Bastianich's recipe Now if a Lidia cite isn't authoritative, I don't know what is. Haikupoet 01:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Marinara" does mean sailor style, but as Lydia's recipe points out, it has more to do with being a quick, thrown together sauce, rather than a well simmered one.  To say it must have fish in it, I think misreads the title.  After all, pasta puttanesca doesn't have prostitutes in it, right?  Puttanesca refers to pasta made "whore style" (derived from the fact that a lot of prostitutes hate to kiss their johns, so they ate pungent, smelly things like garlic, anchovies, peperoncino, etc.).  Most Italian food names indicate the process of how something is made: Mozzarella (mozzare - to pull into little balls), sopressata (pressed or compressed), tagliatelle (cut up or made into strips), etc. 72.78.11.48 13:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marinara is a Misnomer for tomato sauce without meat 

message: This is a very confusing article. This is perhaps best illustrated by this para:
In the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand and India the term "tomato sauce" normally refers to the condiment otherwise known as tomato ketchup, whereas in Canada and the US, "tomato sauce" replaces "marinara sauce" and never refers to ketchup. In these countries, other sauces made with tomatoes are more usually referred to as pasta sauce etc., depending on their uses. In Australia, the term marinara often refers to a tomato-based seafood dish such as spaghetti marinara or marinara pizza.
But the confusion seems to pervade the entire piece.
I agree that in Aust tomato sauce is close to the US ketchup. Then the next part of the sentence is really confusing and it just gets worse and worse. How does "tomato sauce" replace "marinara sauce" in Canada and the US? Confusing. I thought that it was only in the US that marinara refers to a tomato sauce containing no meat and no seafood (called Napolitana in Australia from my experience, as it is in Italy, while it is apparently called Neapolitan sauce in the US). Likewise Australia uses Marinara to refer generally to seafood being contained in the dish, which I thought many countries did with the exception of the US. Asa01 06:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK I plan a major edit/delete of the confusing elements of this article. I have saved the most confusing section below. Asa01 08:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Confusing article

message: Are there exposure issues with tomato sauce of any sort?  Ala egg salad, are there any health risks after being out warm or at room temperature for a number of hours? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.222.217.206 (talk) 11:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless the tomato sauce was left in the heat and went off, I don't think there'd be anything wrong with it. Of course, don't go eating it if it looks green or has mold on it - I don't want to be done for food poisoning! Think outside the box 11:23, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Health after exposure? 

message: Can we mention something about Escoffier adding this to the mother sauces?  I can write it when I get some time--Chfprd 05:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Escoffier 

message: Is there any reason why the term "Dead Horse" is used as a term to describe Tomato Sauce in Australia? I dont see the connection between sauce and horse apart from that it rimes.--MattyC3350 01:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's rhyming slang.  Zsero 01:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which, of course, makes little sense to us Nauth American's who still have all of their R's. 69.95.240.178 (talk) 18:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead Horse 

message: I think removing all the recipes goes too far.  There ought to be links to a few recipes, preferably representative of different styles.  I think three or four such links would be ideal.  But which ones?
-- Zsero (talk) 15:16, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Recipes

message: I was redirected here from Sunday Gravy, but the term isn't used in the article. Either something should be added in this article explaining what the food is, or 'Sunday gravy' should have its own page. -- Rosie85 (talk) 12:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: -- 14:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sunday Gravy

message: I would like to see a source for "Mexican tomato sauces usually contain large portions of Corona Light or home brewed tequila. "  This is the first place I have ever heard this.  It is especially questionable since 1) Corona Light was invented for the American market 2) Tequila is not brewed.  The result of brewing agave in pulque which is then distilled into tequila 3) I have never heard or seen "home brewing" of tequila in Mexico since it is a pretty labor intensive process.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.196.102.28 (talk) 21:07, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mexican Sauces 

message: I suggest removing the line "Most often, Italian tomato sauces can be switched with more authentic white sauces". This seems to be giving a point of view, and it isn't terribly accurate to say. As anyone who has visited Italy can say. Whether the sauces are red or white depends on where you are and the occassion of the meal (and the tastes and preferences of your hosts). It may be more accurate to mention whether white sauces came before red sauces historically. But to suggest that one is more authentic seems off here. Tomato sauce is now an authentic italian food. And where does that leave Pesto sauce?    —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.110.167 (talk) 04:07, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: White Sauces

message: I have not changed this section, but it clearly needs some further explanation or alteration: "In most of the U.S., "tomato sauce" refers to a tomato purée with salt and small amounts of spices sold in cans. This product is considered incomplete and not normally used as it is. Instead, it is used as a base for almost any food which needs a lot of tomato flavour, including versions of many of the sauces described on this page." I have never heard anyone in the US describe refer to tomato puree or crushed tomatoes in a can as Tomato Sauce. It's true that this forms the base of most Italian American tomato sauces, but few would call it a sauce on it's own. Is the writer trying to say that most tomato sauces are made from canned tomato products rather than fresh tomatoes?   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.110.167 (talk) 23:40, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is what is called "tomato sauce" in the USA.  If you buy a can of "tomato sauce", that is what is in it.  And no, it isn't a sauce that one would actually use on its own; that's precisely what the article says.  -- Zsero (talk) 00:00, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Prego, Ragu, etc. are all sold as pasta sauces, not tomato sauces.  Your last sentence is the whole point: Few people I know use anything sold with the label Tomato Sauce as a base.  But this section is about precisely that substance that is sold with the label "tomato sauce".  What do you suppose it's used for?  -- Zsero (talk) 16:41, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Tomato sauce in the United States

message: Fourth paragraph quote: "In countries such as Britain, Australia, New Zealand and in Southern Africa the term 'tomato sauce' is used to describe a condiment similar to that known in the USA as 'ketchup'.[1]"
However the reference is to http://journals.worldnomads.com/leah/gallery/13544/384186.aspx - which is a picture of a meat pie with sauce and a caption. Maybe an example, but hardly a reference and much has been added by the wikipedia author. Maybe this section should be removed.
There is an opening blurb that says: This article is about the sauces often used with pasta or pizza. In some countries, "tomato sauce" means ketchup.
And part of the first paragraph reads: A tomato sauce is any of a very large number of sauces made primarily out of tomatoes, usually to be served as part of a dish (rather than as a condiment).
Then lower down, there is a section on tomato sauce in Australia which says that it commonly refers to a sauce similar to American ketchup.
What I'm trying to illustrate here is that the first two statements contradict the Australian tomato sauce section, can't be referenced and I think the first needs to be removed and the second tidied up. Australian tomato sauce is still a tomato sauce, and fits the generalised description. No references can be given to support the former statements, and what an "average" Australian considers to be tomato sauce is covered by the article.
Further, it is improper to forward readers to "Ketchup" when they're looking for Australian (or non-American English-speaking world) tomato sauce. Ketchup is not the same as the type of tomato sauce. (Maybe ketchup itself should be referenced in the US section.)
Belfry (talk) 11:17, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing citations and poor references - also the 'Ketchup' conversation. 

message: "Tomato sauce was an ancient condiment in Aztec food" ??? Reference please! "Tomato (not souce) was an ancient ingrediente in Aztec food" perhaps...--Schellenberg (talk) 20:33, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Mexican sauce

message: I live in the UK, and I have never used the term "tomato sauce" used for anything other than a fresh pasta sauce, nor heard it used that way. Calling ketchup "tomato sauce" is entirely absurd to me. I'm not sure about the other Commonwealth countries. Can we get some citations to support the claim that "tomato sauce" refers to something akin/identical to ketchup? Otherwise the section ought to be removed.--Newbiepedian (talk · contribs · X! · logs) 16:45, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: In South Wales ketchup is written on labels, but no-one calls it that. Red sauce or tomato sauce. Stub Mandrel (talk) 15:09, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

text: @Newbiepedian We have always called Ketchup "Tomato Sauce" and ketchup by contrast is never used. I've lived all across the UK, and heard both. Why is this still disputed? 81.174.170.144 (talk) 18:13, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commonwealth 

message: Been seeing a lot of revisions, probably well intentioned, that implies Italy was the country of origin for tomato sauce, which is proven incorrect by a simple glance at the Florentine Codex. In it, Fray Bernardo describes a tomato sauce with the primary ingredients (presumably tomatoes, chilis, and salt in a stew) primarily found in Italian  cookbooks several hundred years later. Let us not rewrite history. It would be more correct to create a wiki specific to the tyoes of tomatoes sauces that arose in Italy 200 years after its discovery in the new world.
:Where is it in the history prose? Only the Itaian version can be found with no mention of Aztec origins. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 12:05, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: This information should be reflected right away in the History section; I've done so. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 22:27, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

text: IMUH you don't know the difference between sauce and soup --Schellenberg (talk) 15:14, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just the facts, people. Mexico is the country of origin for Tomato Sauce.